#ubuntu-classroom 2007-10-09
<popey> BOING
<tonyyarusso> ryanakca: you around?
<ryanakca> tonyyarusso: yes
<pleia2> evening tonyyarusso!
<tonyyarusso> ryanakca: I had a pondering
<tonyyarusso> hey pleia2 !
<ryanakca> tonyyarusso: I finally added you to the team
* tonyyarusso just saw
<tonyyarusso> Does Canonical ever offer hosting and web sites for projects other than LoCo teams, or are we just supposed to use the wiki?
<ryanakca> I dunno...
<pleia2> approved 3rd party teams can get webspace
<ryanakca> ask them in their sysadmins channel... which has been idle for the past year
* ryanakca nods
<tonyyarusso> nah, I've seen activity in sysadmin
<tonyyarusso> just not lots
<ryanakca> hehe
<tonyyarusso> The reason I ask is because I've been reading up on Drupal for a completely unrelated purpose, and thought some things about it sounded like they could be useful to us.
* ryanakca nods
* ryanakca has no drupal experience, but I'd love to learn...
<ryanakca> file an RT
* pleia2 is supposed to be learning drupal, but has not been motivated enough
<tonyyarusso> Are we "approved"?
<ryanakca> no
<pleia2> nope, don't even have a mailing list yet
<ryanakca> hehe
<ryanakca> even though I filed it several weeks ago...
<ryanakca> herm.
<tonyyarusso> pleia2: I just bought "Building Online Communities with Drupal, phpBB, and WordPress" from Apress.  It's really good for the "I don't know anything yet and need to get off the ground" crowd.
<pleia2> :o
<pleia2> I might have to pester Apress for a "review copy"
<tonyyarusso> I also go "Pro Drupal Development", which will be the next step, but substantially more complex.
* popey notes he got added too :)
<pleia2> welcome popey!
<popey> tonyyarusso: yes, non-locos can get hosting
<ryanakca> popey: yep :)
<popey> i run the screencast team and we have our (drupal) site hosted by canonical
<tonyyarusso> popey: 'k, cool
<pleia2> popey: is your team approved?
<tonyyarusso> pleia2: Yeah, I need to start doing that.  I just signed up our LoCo for the user group programs with Apress and O'Reilly.
<popey> uhm, no :)
<tonyyarusso> And then went out and spent $185 on their books at Barnes & Noble anyway :S
<popey> maybe i should add it to the schedule for approval
<pleia2> tonyyarusso: O'Reilly is great if you actually write reviews, they'll nag you about asking for more books!
<tonyyarusso> pleia2: That's not so bad - it would be good to be reminded
<pleia2> popey: cool, so even unapproved teams can have space, how did you go about getting it?
<popey> i kinda got it by the back door
<popey> i suspect that we are not the best example
<pleia2> ah, sneaky popey :)
<popey> i note the mythbuntu people have also asked for hosting
<popey> dunno if they got it yet
<pleia2> I think the mythbuntu people had some trouble and they're approved, I just wondered if they didn't take the proper routes
<ryanakca> hmm... can you just randomly decide to review, even though you've never done so before? I guess they take your credit card number, send you the book, and if you don't publish the review by x date, they charge you for it?
<popey> ryanakca: if you need drupal help, just shout
<pleia2> ryanakca: you say you're a LUG, give them your URL, they send you free books
<popey> i run a few drupal sites
<ryanakca> pleia2: cool
<pleia2> ryanakca: nothing so formal as asking for a credit card :)
<pleia2> if you don't review, oh well, but if you do - you get more! and they like yoU!
* ryanakca wonders if they accept one person LUGs
<pleia2> lol
<ryanakca> we had one... but it's been dead for the past 3-4 years
<popey> ryanakca: had one what?
<ryanakca> LUG
<popey> oh
<popey> where?
<ryanakca> Kingston Linux User Group :)
<popey> Kingston in..?
<ryanakca> KLUG... http://www.klug.on.ca/
<ryanakca> ontario, canada
<popey> thanks
<popey> there is a Kingston near me :)
<tonyyarusso> ryanakca: just do it through Canada
<popey> that's why I wondered
<ryanakca> they've added counters to the website... but haven't held any meetings
* popey helps with UK LUGs
<ryanakca> tonyyarusso: yeah, CALUG... and... the lug address is my house...
<tonyyarusso> ryanakca: I meant Ubuntu Canada
<ryanakca> Ah... but, how would we share the books...
<popey> lotto
<ryanakca> would cost an arm and a leg on shipping from eastern canada to BC
<pleia2> gosh, we are so off topic, people are actually here, I want to talk -classroom! :)
<popey> heh
<ryanakca> hehe
* popey wondered why he was added to the lp team actually :)
<tonyyarusso> ryanakca: They don't have to ship to BC, so it depends on who wants it ;)
<popey> not that I mind
<tonyyarusso> Aaaaaanyway
<jrib> hi
<pleia2> popey: we're trying to relaunch classroom
<ryanakca> popey: because you applied?
<popey> i did!?
<tonyyarusso> I was just pondering about site stuff for scheduling and posting logs and whatnot - drupal would work well
<popey> must have been last time round :)
<popey> tonyyarusso: what's wrong with the wiki?
<pleia2> the wiki is great for now, but moving forward something more dynamic would be nice
<popey> ok
<popey> drupal has a nice calendar system
<tonyyarusso> popey: well, eventually it gets limiting, particularly in the scheduling area.  The upload/linking files capability leaves something to be desired too.
<ryanakca> nope, sept 30th
<popey> we use it on the fridge
<pleia2> if someone wants to put effort into getting us hosting, that's cool
<pleia2> right now I'm sort of looking to focus on content more
<tonyyarusso> yeah
* ryanakca nods
<popey> if it's just a drupal site I don't mind hosting it
<pleia2> I don't know if it's a secret or not, but ubuntu open week is being scheduled
<ryanakca> :D
<tonyyarusso> I'm sort of in CMS-studying mode, since this is one of four(?) areas I'm looking into it for
* pleia2 hides from jono if it's a secret ;)
<tonyyarusso> pleia2: yay!
* popey has noted the changes to the prep page
<popey> handy page to be subscribed to :)
<tonyyarusso> popey: name?
<tonyyarusso> oh, just UbuntuOpenWeek
<popey> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Prep
<tonyyarusso> ah
<pleia2> yep
<popey> pleia2: did you want a domain, (ubuntuclassroom.org) or just a subdomain (classroom.ubuntu.com) or something else?
<tonyyarusso> pleia2: haha, how would you have found out?  By asking about running a U-W session perhaps?
<pleia2> popey: either one
<tonyyarusso> popey: classroom. is more elegant and uniform
<pleia2> tonyyarusso: Jono asked me to run the UW one
<tonyyarusso> pleia2: ah, that works too
<pleia2> mmm, so what else to talk about?
* ryanakca shrugs...
<ryanakca> who we going to get to teach?
<ryanakca> same people as last year or?
<tonyyarusso> Do we want to try to have any sessions before open week, or just start up right away after?
<tonyyarusso> Will we be doing any classroom sessions ourselves?
<pleia2> tonyyarusso: start up after
<tonyyarusso> (for ow)
<ryanakca> bit of both... I might post something on planet asking for volunteers
<ryanakca> year.
<tonyyarusso> ryanakca: I'm thinking of asking for one volunteer from each LoCo.
<pleia2> ryanakca: I think we can go through the presenters from last year and see if any are interested in doing their class again
<ryanakca> yeah
<jrib> are you planning on new topics or the same?
<ryanakca> dunno.
<tonyyarusso> some of each I suppose
<pleia2> yeah, some of each
<tonyyarusso> new ones would be better, but harder
<ryanakca> I'd go for pretty much the same, but if we think up of anything new, sure
<pleia2> I also liked that MOTU is doing sessions in here
<pleia2> need to get more teams to do Q&A sessions that we promote
<tonyyarusso> yeah
<ryanakca> And, do we keep the same model, beginner-intermediate-advanced courses, or alternate between beginner-advanced type thing?
<tonyyarusso> So, s/each LoCo/each LoCo and team/
<pleia2> tonyyarusso: yeah
<pleia2> ryanakca: I think we can sort of alternate, based on availability
<tonyyarusso> ryanakca: not sure it has to be structured, as long as there is a mix of everything
<ryanakca> also, umm... if you can hunt down the logs of the 2 person meeting gnomefreak and I had in #ubuntu-meeting a while back, we had lots of good points/ideas/etc in there
<ryanakca> February-ish methinks
<pleia2> where are logs from here kept?
<tonyyarusso> !logs
<ubotu> Channel logs can be found at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs - See also !OpenWeek
<pleia2> ty
<popey> looks like older logs are purged
<popey> http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&rls=com.ubuntu%3Aen-GB%3Aofficial&hs=Urh&q=pleia2+gnomefreak++site%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fpeople.ubuntu.com%2F%7Efabbione%2Firclogs+ubuntu-meeting+classroom&btnG=Search&meta=
<pleia2> they're in the archives/ directory
<popey> ahhh
<pleia2> well it wasn't feburary :)
<ryanakca> http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/archived/2007-01/ubuntu-meeting-2007-01-07.html
<tonyyarusso> ryanakca: timestamp?
<ryanakca> for?
* ryanakca scratches his head
<tonyyarusso> your conversation
<pleia2> ty
<tonyyarusso> where's it start?
<pleia2> 6:57
<tonyyarusso> ok
<tonyyarusso> oh yeah, I think I read this before
* ryanakca works on homework while you guys read it... or while pleia reads it...
<ryanakca> ping me when you're done
* pleia2 sees where tonyyarusso's idea of "reminding presenters" comes in :)
<tonyyarusso> :P
<tonyyarusso> another nifty part with drupal - that could be automated potentially
<jroes> has there been any thought to ubuntu classroom screencasts?
<jroes> I would say google-style lecture videos probably wouldn't be worth it, but a screencast with running commentary sounds neat
<ryanakca> pleia2: see Classroom/Guidelines
<popey> like http://screencasts.ubuntu.com jroes ?
<popey> :)
<tonyyarusso> jroes: There is a separate screencast team right now
* popey waves from the screencast team
<tonyyarusso> Perhaps there would be some cause for helping them work together, but classroom has always been irc-oriented so far
<jroes> haha
<jroes> good one :)
<popey> i completely agree
<jroes> I like the irc format too though
<jroes> hmm.  I didn't realize that most of this is geared towards using ubuntu
<jroes> is there anything geared toward learning how to contribute?
<pleia2> ryanakca: nice
<ryanakca> jroes: there's open week
<popey> not yet from the screencast team jroes, no, but that's a big part of the open week
<popey> oh :)
* jroes googles open week
* popey needs to learn to type quicker
<pleia2> jroes: see topic
<popey> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek jroes
* jroes smacks self
<pleia2> :)
<pleia2> ok, I need to sneak out
* pleia2 has a toothache, which has turned into a not so fun headache!
<pleia2> dentist on wednesday...
<pleia2> stupid wisdom teeth
<popey> :(
<pleia2> and I'm 26! I'm too old for this ;)
<popey> haha
* popey is 35 and I haven't had my wisdoms come yet
<pleia2> lucky
<ryanakca> see yah pleia2
<pleia2> ok, nite
<ryanakca> hehe... *feels young*
* ryanakca heads back to his homework
<popey> time for bed methinks.. nn all
<ryanakca> night popey
<jroes> hm, oct 22 and an empty schedule?  did dholbach2 just accidentally kill the schedule or is that from the previous open week?
<popey> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Prep jroes
<jroes> ahhhh
<jroes> excellent, that is going to be an interesting week :)
<pleia2> popey: congrats :)
<popey> thanks :S
<popey> kinda talked myself out of becoming official there :)
<pleia2> heh :)
<popey> well if we get a blog post out of mark, that'll help :)
<pleia2> making it through a CC meeting even if you don't get an approval is fine (:
<pleia2> your project is great
#ubuntu-classroom 2007-10-11
<Linuturk> open week == wonderful idea
<Linuturk> :)
<popey> :)
* popey is looking forward to it
<gandalf> moin erstmal
<Evildust> hi
<Darklord> so wht is heppning here???
<fevel> I guess nothing yet
<ss> join #wordpress
<gaurav_> gutsy gibbon has an option to encrypt partitions at install!
<tonyyarusso> gaurav_: yep - finally
<gaurav_> can't wait to get my hands on it
<popey> gaurav_: rc is out
<popey> http://gb.releases.ubuntu.com/7.10/
<tonyyarusso> wow
<tonyyarusso> The Open Week schedule is actually FULL this time
<popey> yeah, there was a real last minute rush
<gaurav_> i can hold out a few more days
<gaurav_> thanks for the link though
<popey> :)
<popey> gwaaan do it :)
<popey> bow to peer pressure :)
<gaurav_> lol
<PriceChild> uuu another open week :)
#ubuntu-classroom 2007-10-12
<popey> :)
<popey> PriceChild: you going to get your hair cut for the special occasion that is open week? :)
<PriceChild> popey, uuuuu I don't know.... we'll have to see...
<PriceChild> If I do the Qs for sabdfl again then maybe...
<Zach`> ;o
<caldru> >:o
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-classroom.log
<themoler> hi all
<rick_h> go jcastro
<PhinnFort> go ChanServ
<dholbach> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 15:28. The chair is dholbach.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC] , [IDEA] , [ACTION] , [AGREED] , [LINK] , [VOTE] 
<dholbach> Welcome everybody to the MOTU Q&A session - how are you all doing?
<dholbach> I think we should start with a round of introductions
<dholbach> I'm Daniel Holbach, MOTU for quite a while now - at the moment I'm working on improving MOTU and packaging documentation, if you have any questions at all - feel free to ping me and ask me :-)
<dholbach> who else do we have here today? :)
<rick_h> Rick, michigan lug leader, and hosting a packaging jam for the MI area...so here to learn some more
<dholbach> rick_h: excellent - great to have you here
<sommer> I'm Adam Sommer and I've recently started helping out with the Server team.  Mostly testing and documentation.
<dholbach> sommer: Rock On - I'm sure the server team's very happy with you
<dholbach> ok - keep the introductions coming, it's great to know who's here and to get to know each other...
<persia> I'm Emmet Hikory, MOTU for a while, and Contributor for some time before that.  I tend to focus on .desktop files and stacktrace decoding.
<dholbach> in the meantime let me start off with a few words about MOTU
<dholbach> It's becoming easier and easier to become a MOTU - the process for that is on http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopers
<huats> Christophe Sauthier, I've been doing many littles things (bug solving, packaging...), mainly thanks to norsetto  and dholbach  who help me a lot... and I am a MOTU Hopeful :-) one day :-)
<dholbach> basically you contribute to Ubuntu through sponsors (I'll talk about that in a bit) and after your sponsors are happy with you, you can ask the MOTU Council to approve your request to join the team
<dholbach> sponsoring means: you upload a package or a patch to either Launchpad or another webpage, somebody (who's an Ubuntu developer already) reviews it, builds a source package from it, signs it with their gpg key and uploads it
<dholbach> and that's all there is to it :-)
<dholbach> does anybody have questions about that process?
<dholbach> you can all read about it on http://wiki.ubuntu.com/SponsorshipProcess
<dholbach> [LINK]  http://wiki.ubuntu.com/SponsorshipProcess
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://wiki.ubuntu.com/SponsorshipProcess
<dholbach> [LINK]  http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopers
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopers
<dholbach> ok great
<dholbach> who of you is already involved with those processes and the MOTU team?
* Hobbsee isnt.
<Hobbsee> can i become a MOTU?
<rick_h> yea, toss me in the "not yet" club
<huats> I've been a more and more lately :-)
<Hobbsee> oh wait.  core dev...motu....i probably do fit
<dholbach> Hobbsee is joking - she's one of the backbones of MOTU :)
<gnomefreak> Hobbsee: you can have my motu membership until i stop being scared and go for it ;)
<dholbach> gnomefreak: why are you scared? :)
<Hobbsee> dholbach: because he heard about the bodies in my cellar, from failed MOTU applicants.
<Hobbsee> ahem!  i wasnt supposed to say that!
<dholbach> it's really not that bad :-)
<gnomefreak> it says you need to package for 2 cycle releases and ive only done gutsy and im not sure if it fit the requirments
<dholbach> gnomefreak: I think I removed that from the documentation as we had lots of contributors who contributed less long
* Hobbsee looks for where it says "two cycles"
<gnomefreak> oh ok i saw it 2-3 days ago
* norsetto looks around whistling
<asisak> dholbach: me
<dholbach> what I like about the process is that you just have to demonstrate that you're willing to learn and that you're a good team player and follow the processes
<sourcercito> Hi, Basilio Kublik here, Ubuntu user for about 2 or 3 months, i'm currently helping by doing QA at LP, and looking for new ways to contribute, not in the precess yet, just came late to the introductions :-D
<persia> gnomefreak: Don't let that scare you.  Depending on interest, some people move more quickly (a couple months) and some more slowly (I took about 2 years).  It's really about you becoming familiar with the processes, and feeling comfortable with your work.
<gnomefreak> Hobbsee: give me a minute and ill give link if i find it
<dholbach> sourcercito: excellent
<huats> gnomefreak: I don't remember well where, but I also have seen the 2 cycles things
<Hobbsee> gnomefreak: it's basically "if you seem to know what you're doing, submit constantly correct debdiffs (or mostly, at least), follow processes and dont do stupid things, you're probably fine"
<dholbach> it's important that you ask if you don't understand something, that people know they can trust you and that you're easy to work with
<Hobbsee> and what dholbach said
<persia> huats: It was in the MOTU/Contributing wiki page until last week.
<dholbach> huats, gnomefreak: I removed it from one occasion in the last days
<gnomefreak> ah ok
<huats> ok
<dholbach> great
<dholbach> we have a bunch of easy  bugs that you can probably start working on quickly
<dholbach> they are all linked from http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Bugs and http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/TODO
<dholbach> [LINK]  http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/TODO
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/TODO
<dholbach> [LINK]  http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Bugs
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Bugs
<dholbach> some bugs are tagged as 'bitesize' meaning as much as "this might be easy to solve"
<dholbach> some are tagged as 'packaging' meaning that the bug lies in the packaging
<dholbach> we're already late to get fixes into gutsy, but this is a perfect time to get prepared for hardy by playing with bugs and tools a bit
<dholbach> also I recommend http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Recipes
<Hobbsee> dholbach: oh, so this is *might* be easy to solve, rather than *guarenteed is* easy to solve?
<dholbach> [LINK]  http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Recipes
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Recipes
<dholbach> Hobbsee: yes, of course
<Hobbsee> excellent, i can start tagging more bitesize bugs!
<dholbach> but you can always ask on #ubuntu-motu
<dholbach> or on ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com or ubuntu-motu-mentors@lists.ubuntu.com
<dholbach> do we have any questions? :-)
<sommer> so say I attach a diff to a bug, the next step is to get it sponsored?
<dholbach> sommer: exactly
<rick_h> sure, I've started going through the packaging guide and whenever I tell someone "I've created a chroot and now dpkg-buildsource" I get back "oh, you should be using dpackage" or "it should just be 2 commands"
<dholbach> if the package is in main/restricted, you subscribe a team called ubuntu-main-sponsors
<dholbach> else you subscribe ubuntu-universe-sponsors
<rick_h> am I going about this the wrong/non-standard method or should I be using some other "getting started" guide?
* norsetto stress subscribe, not assign
<Hobbsee> (dpkg-buildsource?)
<persia> sommer: As an alternative, you can also look at the package, and try to fix more than one bug at once (although this isn't always as easy)
<rick_h> Hobbsee: sorry, going from memory
<dholbach> the bugs of those teams show up on http://daniel.holba.ch/sponsoring - and we're getting better and better at reviewing them quickly
<Hobbsee> rick_h: a lot of it is aliases for each other.  (and you wanted dpkg-buildpackage)
<rick_h> whatever the first step in the packaging guide is after create the files
<Hobbsee> rick_h: like, debuild is actually an alias of dpkg-buildpackage, afaik, and the options are the same.
<dholbach> (debuild logs for you and makes use of fakeroot)
<rick_h> ok, but the chroot setup is still the "proper" way and such?
<dholbach> that depends
<dholbach> for example develop for gutsy but still run feisty
<dholbach> in that case it's favorable to have a chroot and use that
<rick_h> ok
<Hobbsee> rick_h: chroot, pbuilder, or sbuild, yes.  but remember, a chroot will save any changes you make to it, whereas a pbuilder wont.
<persia> I'd say there is no "proper" way to build packages.  chroot, pbuilder, and sbuild all have advocates.
<dholbach> so you can test that it builds and installs properly in the release target you want to get it uploaded to
<Hobbsee> rick_h: (pbuilder just makes a chroot, then deletes it after building, or whatever you tell it to)
<Hobbsee> rick_h: if that helps
<rick_h> ok, but as someone new starting to read from page 1...what page 1 is my starting point?
* persia notes that chroots only save changes if they aren't schroots
<Hobbsee> persia: yeah, but i dont know about them :)
<sommer> persia: if I takle more than one bug for a package would I then attach the diff file to both bugs or just one?
<dholbach> rick_h: we're in a transition period - I hope it's going to be just http://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide and http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment soon
<Hobbsee> sommer: just one is fine, assuming you've got both listed in the changelog
<sommer> gotcha thanks
<rick_h> dholbach: ok, I'm going through the packaging guide so I'll just keep chugging for now
<dholbach> sommer: what Hobbsee says, as long as you add a (LP: #123456) and (LP: #123457) in the changelog :)
<norsetto> sommer: and used the (LP: #xxxxx) tag
<rick_h> I just got a bunch of "you're doing it the hard way" flak from people
<persia> sommer: When I was a contributor, I usually picked the most critical bug, and put the debdiff there, with a note that it fixed the other bugs, and notes in those bugs that the fix was there.  The other option (probably cleaner) is to make a new bug for your patch, and put a comment in the other bugs that the patch is in the new bug.
<dholbach> rick_h: the packaging guide is not on the wiki yet, but I assume you get it from help.ubuntu.com for now
<dholbach> rick_h: oh really?
<Hobbsee> rick_h: it's not a bad idea doing it the hard way, then writing scripts after you understand it.  *shrug*
<rick_h> yea, I actually got the pdf version for now
<Hobbsee> rick_h: helps you understand a bit better how it all fits in
<dholbach> rick_h: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Recipes has a few howtos that concentrates on hands-on-use of tools, maybe that helps
<rick_h> ok, well the hope is to learn and then I have a former MOTU to help with a jam for people in Nov
<geser> persia: I manage a gutsy chroot which I use for preparing packages with schroot
<rick_h> ok, thanks
<Hobbsee> rick_h: with the "what should i build with" question, the only *wrong* answers are "on your own system, which you mess with all the time", or "in the wrong release"
* persia also points at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Contributing for some ways to use tools when preparing patches for review
<huats> rick_h: you can trust dholbach : the Recipes do help a lot at the beginning...
<persia> geser: I also
<Hobbsee> rick_h: and a lot of people do the former.
<dholbach> rick_h: so anything you looked at packaging-wise already?
<dholbach> gnomefreak: or you?
<rick_h> dholbach: I'm just up to page 25 of the guide
<rick_h> I created a debmirror last night to help with the chroot building
<rick_h> locally that is
<dholbach> nice
<rick_h> so the plan is to get through the guide, then the jam I'm hosting is going to repackage gftp as a learning
<rick_h> then go from there
<rick_h> my goals are to be able to create packages of php/python apps (things i tend to run into that I wish had more up to date packages)
<dholbach> rick_h: great - let me know once you get notes or plans for your jam session together
<rick_h> sure thing
<dholbach> I'm curious to know what you demo there :-)
<dholbach> gnomefreak: I believe you have done some packaging in the mozilla team?
<rick_h> the flyer is: http://mitechie.com/uploads/package_jam.pdf
<Hobbsee> gnomefreak: oh, shudder.  i didnt realise you actually did mozilla packaging.
<rick_h> Aaron Lake is in the area and volunteer to help get some materials together
<rick_h> (I guess he was MOTU with breezy)
* Hobbsee still occasionally has nightmares, remembering enigmail
<Hobbsee> although that wasnt you
<dholbach> rick_h: nice... tell Aaron to re-join the MOTU team! :-)
<gnomefreak> dholbach: yes
<gnomefreak> dholbach: i am pretty much maintainer for iceape
<rick_h> dholbach: he says he's been wanting to get involved some more so we're starting to prod him
<dholbach> rick_h: way to go! :-)
<gnomefreak> Hobbsee: mozilla isnt fun but i learned more from mozilla than any other packaging like flash java and freinds
<bintut> gtg.. good luck!  =)
<dholbach> ok... any packaging questions in here?
<dholbach> huats: you had some last time - are you OK atm? :)
<huats> dholbach: Everythiing rock :-)
<dholbach> ok great :)
* tjagoda is a measy newbie who plans on going to rick-h's packaging jam
<tjagoda> We Michiganders have aspirations of contribution, it would seem.
<dholbach> that's great - you should write up your experiences from it or share your notes
<dholbach> ok, one category of bugs we always fix before a release is unmetdeps bugs
<dholbach> which means packages that are not installable because their depends can not be satisfied
<rick_h> dholbach: one question on the packaging guide, my buildpackage command files due to missing gpg key
<dholbach> one example is https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/meta-gnome2/+bug/145543
<tjagoda> Especially considering the fact that I'm a completely unexperiences user whose yet to learn c or c++.
<rick_h> but there's nothing on setting that up int he manual
<dholbach> rick_h: hang on, I'll find you the webpage
<rick_h> at least up to the point of building the hello source
<Hobbsee> tjagoda: i've used my c++ knowledge (or lack of it) exactly once in ubuntu.
<dholbach> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/GnuPrivacyGuardHowto
<tjagoda> heh
<Hobbsee> tjagoda: so, i dont think hte "i cant program" excuse has any validity :)
<rick_h> thanks, now should I setup a dup for the chroot or just use the same one I would normally run with?
<Hobbsee> tjagoda: of course, it's helpful if you do, but there are things you can learn on the fly - and they're not C++ and such
<dholbach> I don't think there's a need to do duplicate it
<dholbach> more important than being an ace when it comes to C++, is that you're motivated and good at detective work
<dholbach> sometimes the upstream developers have a fix for the problem already
<dholbach> or another distribution has it already
<dholbach> as long as you're willing to learn, willing to talk to people there's no reason for "I'm not good at C++ yet" blocking your MOTU membership :)
<rick_h> package python apps :-)
<persia> Also, it's much more useful to be able to read code than to write it.  If you can find the issue, and describe the problem clearly, upstream is often happy to generate the patch.
<dholbach> hehe :)
<dholbach> exactly
<dholbach> would anybody of you know how to fix  https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/meta-gnome2/+bug/145543 ?
<dholbach> or at least what to make of it?
<tjagoda> So I could get away with a small knowledge of Linux and no programming experience?
<sommer> wouldn't you need to add a something in the control file about the deps?
<persia> tjagoda: The first would probably go away after working on a few bugs, but the second is certainly no obstacle.
<rick_h> dholbach: so is that a bug for beating on the doors of matainers for libtotem and epiphany?
<dholbach> rick_h: no :)
<dholbach> sommer: sounds good
<rick_h> oh, ok then
<persia> sommer: Yes.  Exactly.
<dholbach> let's all download the source for meta-gnome2
<dholbach> apt-get source meta-gnome2
<Hunding> shouldn't you use "aptitude" rather than "apt-get"? :)
<dholbach> if you all look at the debian/control.in file (as sommer rightly pointed out)
<dholbach> Hunding: your choice :)
<gnomefreak> problem is why would meta-gnome2 depend on -dbg packages? shouldnt they be recommend/suggestion?
<dholbach> gnome-dbg is a meta package that you install if you should need it
<dholbach> it's mostly intended for developers :-)
<persia> gnomefreak: The source is meta-gnome2, but the binary package listed in the first comment is gnome-dbg, for which debug packages are expected dependencies.
<sommer> quick question, why is there a control and control.in file?
<gnomefreak> ah grabbing source would have helped first ;)
<dholbach> sommer: that's a special case (debian gnome packages make use of debian/control.in) - the Uploaders: field is generated on the fly
<dholbach> it has no practical use for ubuntu and is a special case
<sommer> ah I see
<dholbach> so if we look at the file we will see that it contains a couple of stanzas
<dholbach> the first is about the source package, the others about the so-called binary packages
<dholbach> binary packages is what you install, source package is what you edit, build and upload to the ubuntu build daemons
<dholbach> also it contains information about which packages the binaries depend on, in the case of the source package what is needed to build the package
<dholbach> does that make sense and is obvious to everybody?
<dholbach> ok, I hope that no questions means 'OK' :-)
<sommer> so binary packages will only depend on other binary packages?  and source packages depend on other source packages?
<dholbach> sommer: build-depends in the case of source packages, but yeah essentially correct
<sommer> cool I think I'm clear on deps now.
<dholbach> let's look at the           Package: gnome-dbg             line (line 256)
<dholbach> because that's what geser rightly found out about the bug already: that's where the problem is
<dholbach> another thing that geser demonstrates in the bug: it's very important that you share all your knowledge - if you find out anything and don't see a solution to move on, just add it to the bug report
<dholbach> it will somebody else's life easier
<dholbach> so looking at gnome-dbg, it depends on a whole lot of other packages
<dholbach> libtotem-plparser1-dbg and epiphany-browser-dbg included
<dholbach> which are not part of gutsy
<dholbach> what do we do?
<dholbach> how can we check if we need to update them to a different package name or something?
<sommer> sync from debian?
<dholbach> we could do that, but we'd have to check the complete package of debian first and see if it fixes our problem
<dholbach> how would we fix it just for ubuntu gutsy?
<dholbach> I'd check which totem and epiphany-browser packages are effectively available in gutsy and see if we find a replacement for the current gnome-dbg deps
<dholbach> daniel@lovegood:~$ apt-cache showsrc totem | head -n2
<dholbach> Package: totem
<dholbach> Binary: totem-mozilla, libtotem-plparser-dev, totem-xine, totem-gstreamer, libtotem-plparser7, totem
<dholbach> daniel@lovegood:~$
* persia notes that doing the investigation of the debian package would generally be preferable, if this weren't a time-limited Q&A session
<dholbach> as we can see, Ubuntu Gutsy does not offer any -dbg packages any more
<dholbach> so it looks safe to drop the dependency
<dholbach> let's take a look at epiphany-browers
<dholbach> daniel@lovegood:~$ apt-cache showsrc epiphany-browser | head -n2
<dholbach> Package: epiphany-browser
<dholbach> Binary: epiphany-browser, epiphany-browser-dev
<dholbach> daniel@lovegood:~$
<dholbach> same... so we can safely remove those two for now
<dholbach> now we add a changelog entry to debian/changelog and try to build the package
<dholbach> (you need to install  devscripts  if you haven't already, so we can use   dch  for that)
<dholbach> then you run   dch -i
<dholbach> and add a changelog entry like      "  * debian/control.in: removed libtotem-plparser1-dbg and epiphany-browser-dbg dependencies, they are not in gutsy anymore."   to it
<dholbach> does that work for everybody?
<sommer> I'm with ya
<dholbach> to build it, we need a few tools and the build-dependencies for meta-gnome2
<dholbach> sudo apt-get install build-essential fakeroot; sudo apt-get build-dep meta-gnome2        will hopefully suffice
<blueyed> Add a LP: #xxx reference to the changelog, too.
<dholbach> blueyed: excellent point!
<dholbach> (LP: #145543)       in this case
<blueyed> So the bug gets automatically closed as fixed released.
<dholbach> ... with the package upload.
<dholbach> right-o - let me know once you're all there
<dholbach> anybody having problems?
<dholbach> ok let's hope we're all doing well :-)
<dholbach> now you run     debuild
<blueyed> not "debuild -S"?
<dholbach> we'll try to build the package and see if that works :)
* persia notes that for those using sbuild or pbuilder, breaking this into two steps `debuild -S` and $my_build_tool $package_source.changes is also acceptable.
* blueyed normally does "pdebuild" (uses pbuilder) for the build test and then debuild -S to create the .dsc/.changes file for use with debdiff.
<dholbach> so in my case I have a gnome-dbg_2.18.3ubuntu2_all.deb which depends on: Depends: libatk1.0-dbg, libatspi-dbg, libgail-dbg, libglib2.0-0-dbg, gnome-applets-dbg, gnome-panel-dbg | libpanel-applet2-dbg, libgnomevfs2-0-dbg, libgtk2.0-0-dbg, libgnomeui-0-dbg, nautilus-dbg, libpango1.0-0-dbg, evolution-data-server-dbg, evolution-dbg, libgsf-gnome-1-114-dbg, gstreamer0.10-plugins-base-dbg, gstreamer0.10-plugins-good-dbg, gstreamer0.10-plugin
<dholbach> s-ugly-dbg, libgstreamer0.10-0-dbg, libgtkhtml3.8-dbg, evince-dbg
<dholbach> no totem, no epiphany
<dholbach> I just tried to install it with gdebi, works nicely
<dholbach> now you can run      debuild -S      (which will build a source package of the new version)
<dholbach> if you now look at the output of       debdiff meta-gnome2_2.18.3ubuntu1.dsc meta-gnome2_2.18.3ubuntu2.dsc
* persia notes that some packages are buggy, and running `debuild -S` after having run `debuild` may be messy.  If you have trouble with something like this, #ubuntu-motu is a great place to ask for help.
<dholbach> you will see the source changes we made
<dholbach> sommer: there you will notice that debian/control.in is generated from debian/control
<dholbach> and has our changes too
<blueyed> persia: so it's safer to use debuild -S and test the build using the .changes file?
<dholbach> is everybody seeing that?
<sommer> ah... cool
<persia> blueyed: Yes and No.  Yes, that you won't have issues with a bad clean rule.  No, that you won't discover the bad clean rule (which should be fixed).
<dholbach> so can somebody run:
<blueyed> persia: you won't detect a bad clean rule with pbuilder, would you? Ah.. you've said "debuild". I see.. sorry for confusion.
<dholbach> debdiff meta-gnome2_2.18.3ubuntu1.dsc meta-gnome2_2.18.3ubuntu2.dsc > meta-gnome2.debdiff
<dholbach> and attach the meta-gnome2.debdiff file to the bug report? :)
<persia> blueyed: No.  You wouldn't detect it.
<blueyed> dholbach: is there a convention for naming the diff? I would have used meta-gnome2_2.18.3ubuntu2.dsc.diff
<dholbach> blueyed: no there isn't really - lots of people do like you do
<dholbach> some name it <package>_<version>.debdiff
<dholbach> if it's attached to the bug with a comment "this makes it work", that's the most important point to it :)
<norsetto> blueyed: actually you can, by using a pbuilder hook (which is what I do)
<persia> When sponsoring, I prefer package_version.dsc.diff or package_version.debdiff, as it makes is easier to keep track of different patches to different packages.
<dholbach> who came up with a debdiff file? :)
<blueyed> norsetto: which does some comparison of before/after contents? That's interesting. Is it available somewhere?
<norsetto> blueyed: no, I just use it to run debuild -S after the build, and then make the comparison
<persia> dholbach: It was suggested to me for my first ever patch.  I forget by whom.
<norsetto> blueyed: I found it by looking at the source of revu-tools
<blueyed> I would have a debdiff.. :)
<dholbach> sommer, rick_h: do you have a debdiff too? :)
<rick_h> sorry, boss chimed in and I had to run away to help him fix his mac problem
<rick_h> I'm tring to play catchup
<sommer> dholbach: sorry, someone had a question in RL... yep I've got a debdiff.
<dholbach> sommer: if you can attach it to the bug report, we can take a look at it together
<sommer> okay, one sec
<blueyed> norsetto: can you maybe add it to the PBuilderHowto on the wiki?
<norsetto> blueyed: sure I could, I suggested that that page is added to the packaging guide actually, it would even be better
<rick_h>  dholbach, back in the changelog entry do we increment the  meta-gnome2 (1:2.18.3ubuntu1) ?
<rick_h> or just leave it?
<dholbach> rick_h: 1:2.18.3ubuntu2 would be correct
<rick_h> ok, so we don't change it to a .4ubuntu assuming this gets updated
<blueyed> rick_h: that's what the "-i" in "dch -i" makes.
<sommer> dholbach: sorry I was called away again.
<norsetto> blueyed: its very easy, you just add your hookdir to the pbuilder call, for instance --hookdir /usr/share/pbuilder/pbuilder-hooks/
<norsetto> blueyed: and then you add in your hookdir the script B01debuildtest (or your modified one) from the revu-tools package
<persia> rick_h: You would only want to change it to -4ubuntu1 if you were merging all the changes from Debian's -4.
<rick_h> ok, I failed debuild due to the missing gpg key so I need to fix that
<rick_h> is this transcription avail online so I can try to finish once I get that done/
<norsetto> blueyed: all the script is doing is saving the .dsc and .diff.gz, running debuild -S, grepping the ^---.*orig*/ string in the diff and saving it, and restores the .dsc and .diff.gz
<persia> rick_h: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ubuntu-classroom-current.html is a bit behind (and it will get a date stamp at some point), but it should have the transcript in the next couple hours.
<rick_h> thanks
<dholbach> rick_h: that's fine, you don't need the key
<norsetto> persia: dholbach has a local log, I usually use that and generate the log in in MOTU wiki
<rick_h> oh, it told me it failed so I assumed I was stuck for now
<dholbach> I think MootBot generates one too
<dholbach> rick_h: you can run debuild on both .dsc files
<blueyed> rick_h: when signing fails, the build is ok though. (you could use debuild -us -uc to skip signing)
<persia> rick_h: You can also use `debuild -us -uc` to debuild without a key.
<rick_h> yea, I knew it was recording somewhere, just not sure whree
<persia> MootBot does, and makes it pretty, but I don't know where it stores the results.
<rick_h> ok, thanks
<rick_h> ok, that worked for the build then
<blueyed> thanks, norsetto. I'll set it up here.
<dholbach> anybody able to post the debdiff to the bug?
<blueyed> rick_h in a minute.. :)
<dholbach> rock on
<rick_h> heh, I'm looking but I think my debdiff is messed up
<dholbach> can you upload it somewhere so we can take a look?
<rick_h> http://paste.avwsystems.com/paste/47
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://paste.avwsystems.com/paste/47
<dholbach> rick_h: is that all?
<rick_h> oh, I see what happened
<dholbach> rick_h: did you edit debian/control.in and ran    dch -i     before?
<rick_h> heh, I initially did sudo apt-get source
<rick_h> and then later removed and started over
<rick_h> without sudo
<Hobbsee> sudo wouldnt make a difference for that - it's only grabbing the source, and sticking it in your current directory, then unpacking it
<rick_h> yea, I just had the files all owned by root so I started over real quick.
<rick_h> I also missed the dch command and did the changelog manually. Much nicer with dch
<dholbach> yeah
<dholbach> Ok, let's close the session for today - we've been running for more than 1,5h already
<blueyed> Should I upload then for now?
<rick_h> ok, so running it debbuild again
<dholbach> so please somebody attach the debdiff to the bug, I'm subscribed to it and will review it as soon as I read it in my mails :-)
<dholbach> thanks everybody for showing up to the session
<blueyed> done
<rick_h> thanks for the time
<dholbach> please stop by on #ubuntu-motu, ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com or ubuntu-motu-mentors@lists.ubuntu.com
<blueyed> Thank you.
<dholbach> I'll announce the next session for next friday soon, so hope to see you there again
<dholbach> hope to see you all as MOTUs soon ;-)
<sourcercito> rick_h, do you want to upload the debdiff yourself?, i could upload it, if you don't want that is
<sourcercito> thanks dholbach it has been a great class :-D
<dholbach> rock on :-)
<rick_h> just go ahead and upload please thanks
<blueyed> I've just uploaded (after doing so to a wrong bug) ;)
<sourcercito> ok, noprob
<dholbach> hehe
<sourcercito> hehehe
<sourcercito> blueyed, do you want to upload it?
<dholbach> please mail me or let me know if you run into any problems
<blueyed> sourcercito: done, twice ;)
<sourcercito> i'm not currently asking for motu sponsorship, so i wont benefit
<sourcercito> :P
<blueyed> Me neither. I wanted to do so in the hardy cycle.. :)
<sourcercito> blueyed, i guess, you forget to delete the last "," in the control.in
<dholbach> sourcercito: soon :)
<sourcercito> dholbach, yes, i will do it ;)
<dholbach> great
<dholbach> see you guys around!
<dholbach> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 17:13.
<sourcercito> when you delete the epiphany-browser-dgb forget to delete the , at the end of evince-dbg
<dholbach> norsetto: http://kryten.incognitus.net/mootbot/meetings/ubuntu-classroom.20071012_1528.html
<sourcercito> s/epiphany-browser-dgb/epiphany-browser-dbg
<dholbach> norsetto: http://kryten.incognitus.net/mootbot/meetings/ubuntu-classroom.log.20071012_1528.html
<blueyed> sourcercito: does not seem to matter?! but I'll fix it and re-upload.
<norsetto> dholbach: got it.
<sourcercito> blueyed, ok, just in case :-D
<rick_h> ok, every time I run debbuild the control file is restored and I don't end up with differences
<dholbach> bye -> #ubuntu-motu
<sourcercito> rick_h, do you alter the control.in file as well?
<rick_h> sourcercito: no, just the control
<rick_h> I thought I read the .in file wasn't something we needed, just gnome
<blueyed> sourcercito: but I think it's better to keep the diff smaller, isn't it?
<sourcercito> edit that file :-D
<rick_h> ok, thanks
<sourcercito> sure, but it seems to regenerate the control from the control.in, so i guess there's no harm
<sourcercito> well back to work, nice to meet everyone, bye :-D
<blueyed> control gets generated from control.in, rick_h.
<rick_h> ok, that explains my trouble, thanks
<sommer> ah man... missed the end of the class.
<sommer> thanks everyone if you're still in here, I appreciate your help.
<blueyed> rick_h: your "jam" is a really great idea! You may want to s/fiesty/feisty/ in the pdf.
<blueyed> btw: if someone is looking for similar bugs (unmetdeps): https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.tag=unmetdeps
<sense> ?
<rick_h> blueyed: thanks for the spelling correction, I always mess that up
<blueyed> Seems to be quite common for Feisty.
<blueyed> sense: ?
<rick_h> well, "i before e except after c"
<blueyed> Is this a rule for english languages?
<rick_h> but yea, we have a large LUG here (40-50 attendees a month) and I'd hoped to get 10 good guys to learn to package
<rick_h> yea, english has the rule "i before e except after C and sounds like a such as neighbor and weigh"
<blueyed> LUG is also really great. I don't think there's one here where I live (yet).
<rick_h> ah, there are a bunch here. Only a few are > 10 guys and very organized
<themoler> hi does anybody know if reiser 4 is implemented in GG?
<blueyed> No, I don't think so, themoler.
<themoler> such a shame ) thx
<blueyed> I'm not sure though.
<themoler> k
<themoler> would be great
<gaurav_> oh shit
<gaurav_> people actually talking in here
<themoler> lol
<rick_h> this mirror takes forever. Been going since last night. 29gb and going
<gaurav_> are you downloading the internet?
<rick_h> yea, the whole ubuntu feisty/gutsy internet
<themoler> hrhr
<gaurav_> ah
<Glich> hi
#ubuntu-classroom 2007-10-13
<[per0la] > Hello :)
<gaurav_> shh, you're breaking the silence!
<[per0la] > lol
<AMD-ubuntuPOWEo> wow
<dr__love> hello all
<dr__love> based in manila
#ubuntu-classroom 2007-10-14
<coffeebeans> hello
<CAT> hi all
<CAT> any one here?
<CAT> hello
#ubuntu-classroom 2008-10-06
<cr3> hi folks! time for a Checkbox tutorial
<cr3> first, a poll: who here has used Checkbox (previously known as hwtest) in the menu: Administration -> Hardware Testing?
<ara> o/ ;-)
<schwuk> .o/
<cr3> ara and swhcuk: woohoo! thanks for contributing hardware and test information to Launchpad!
<danbh_intrepid> I have, even posted once on the launchpad page?
<cr3> danbh_intrepid: thanks, much appreciated!
<gueafrt5> I have, on hardy :p
<cr3> Checkbox is a testing framework which makes it possible to run tests and then submit the results somewhere, such as Launchpad for example.
<cr3> The tests can be automated or manual, they can also integrate third party suites such as autotest from the Linux kernel, LTP from the Linux Testing Project, LSB from the Linux Standard Base, etc.
<cr3> The tests can be defined very simply in a flat text file. Lets look at one example:
<cr3> name: audio
<cr3> plugin: manual
<cr3> categories: laptop, desktop
<cr3> requires: alsa.type == 'control'
<cr3> command: audio_playback $data_path/audio_playback.wav
<cr3> _description: Testing detected sound card: . $(audio_playback --view) . Did you hear a sound?
<cr3> The file which contains this test constitutes a suite, within which the name: field above must be unique. it's simply an identifer, no need to worry about it too much.
<cr3> The plugin: field refers to plugins within the Checkbox framework which provides "manual" and "auto" by default.
<cr3> The manual plugin will, as its name implies, prompt the user for a question.
<cr3> The auto plugin will run a test automatically from the command: field described in a moment.
<cr3> the categories: field limits testing to specific categories of systems which can be: laptop, desktop or server. at some point, maybe thin client will be added
<cr3> The requires: field is a tricky field which defines whether a test should be run or not. For example, testing Firefox would only really make sense if the package was actually installed. Furthermore, it would not be appropriate behavior for Checkbox to autmoatically install a package just because one of the many tests might need it.
<ara> cr3: and in this case, the alsa.type?
<cr3> So, the requires field makes it possible to limit the running of a test based on what is called a "registry" which will be described later. Suffice it to say for now, there are registries for packages and devices, so you can limit based on those.
<cr3> ara: alsa.type is provided by the device registry which maps lshal information. so, try running this: lshal | grep alsa.type. if one of the lines output matches 'control', as defined in the test above, then the audio test will be run
<cr3> For the Firefox example given above, the requires: field would look like: package.name == 'firefox'
<cr3> For the advanced user, the requires: field could also provide boolean expressions and lists: package.name == 'firefox' && system.formfactor == 'notebook'
<cr3> err, make that 'laptop' rather than 'notebook'
<cr3> So, moving on to the command: field which describes the actual command to run. This field is not absolutely necessary for a manual test however, in this particular case, it happens to be useful in order to play a sound.
<cr3> As some might notice, the command: field contains a $data_path environment variable defined by the manual and auto plugins which have a data path, which is simply a directory where data files are stored for testing purposes such as audio files in this particular case.
<cr3> If more environment variables might be needed, these can be defined in another plugin which could be defined in the plugin: field.
<cr3> Finally, the description: field provides a simple description for the test. In the case of manual tests, this is the actual question asked to the enduser. In the case of automated tests, this is strictly informational.
<cr3> As some might notice again, the description: field contains variables which might be interpolated before being presented to the enduser.
<cr3> For those familiar with shell programming, the description is actually interpreted as a here document so more elaborate scripting can be done within the description for ultimate flexibility.
<cr3> Now that we understand most of the relevant fields for defining a test, these can be defined in a suites test file. For hwtest, these are available under the directory: /usr/share/hwtest/suites
<cr3> All the files under that directory are automatically parsed for tests, so you can simply drop new tests in that directory
<cr3> Here is what a minimal automated test would look like:
<cr3> name: cr3
<cr3> plugin: manual
<cr3> description: Is cr3 available in #ubuntu-classroom?
<ara> :-)
<cr3> That's it, three lines!
<cr3> However small that might be, three lines could be painful to write for the hundreds if not thousands of tests available in other third party suites
<cr3> This leads to the concept of plugins which can totally modify the behavior of Checkbox and how it manages tests.
<cr3> By the way, a plugin is also how Checkbox can be modified to submit test results to another location than Launchpad such as your filesystem for example.
<cr3> A plugin is simply a Python module which registers for events. A minimal plugin would look like:
<cr3> class Cr3Plugin(Plugin):
<cr3> def register(self, manager):
<cr3> super(Cr3Plugin, self).register(manager)
<cr3> self._manager.reactor.call_on("report", self.report)
<cr3> def report(self):
<cr3> self._manager.reactor.fire("report-cr3", "cr3 is in #ubuntu-classroom")
<cr3> factory = Cr3Plugin
<cr3> ok, that output didn't look too good in IRC but it should be simple enough to grock with some explanations
<cr3> First, the new plugin should inherit from the Plugin class.
<cr3> Second, it should register to be called on particular events such as the "report" event in this particular example.
<cr3> The registration is done with this call: self._manager.reactor.call_on("report", self.report)
<cr3> So, upon the "report" event, the self.report method will be called.
<cr3> Third, in the report method is defined to perform some action. In this particular case, the event handler is dispatching a new event called "report-cr3"
<cr3> So, anyone who has registered for this particular event will be called.
<cr3> A neat trick is that registering for events can be done with regular expressions too! So, the above call could be rewritten to register for all events starting with "report":
<cr3> self._manager.reactor.call_on("report.*", self.report)
<cr3> Finally, the plugin should provide a global factory variable which will be the hook for instantiating your plugin.
<cr3> Then, in a similar way as test suites, you can simply drop your plugin into the corresponding directory and it will be automatically parsed by the Checkbox framework.
<cr3> The default directory is: /usr/share/hwtest/plugins
<cr3> Some of the interesting features provided by plugins include:
<cr3> - Integration with configuration files where some variables can be formalized as required or optional using the required_attributes and optional_attributes class variables.
<cr3> - Persistence where some information can be preserved seemlessly across invocations of the Checkbox application.
<cr3> - Access to the registry, which will be described shortly, in order to query information about the system.
<cr3> That's about it, very few paradigms are meant to be provided  by Plugins in order to lower the barrier to entry as much as possible.
<cr3> err, that's about it regarding plugins :)
<ara> now registries, i guess :-)
<cr3> The registry, which has been mentionned in a couple occasions already, provides a consistent way of accessing hierarchical information in the system.
<cr3> ara: you read my mind
<cr3> It is meant to expose a single rooted data structure which can be accessed consistently regardless of where the information might be stored
<cr3> For example, cpuinfo.flags would access /proc/cpuinfo
<cr3> Another example, packages.firefox.version would access dpkg output
<cr3> One of the motivations for provding this kind of data structure is to be able to define the requires: field in tests in a consistent way
<cr3> Another is to provide plugins with a convenient way to obtain and query information about the system.
<ara> I guess registries require, in general, sudo permissions, don't they?
<cr3> In fact, a very cool way of querying the registry is by using registry_eval_recursive! This makes it possible to eval an expression across the whole registry
<cr3> ara: the concept of registries simply accesses information. so, if that information requires sudo privileges, then yes.
<cr3> ara: however, for the two examples given above using /proc/cpuinfo and dpkg, then simple user privileges are fine
<ara> cr3: thanks for the clarification :-)
<cr3> A new registry is defined in a similar way as plugins in terms of:
<cr3> 1. Deriving a class but, instead of Plugin, the Registry class in this case.
<cr3> 2. Creating a factory global variable as a hook.
<cr3> 3. Copying the new registry as a Python module under a directory, /usr/share/hwtest/registries in this case.
<cr3> The main difference is how the Registry class is derived. So, lets look at yet another example:
<cr3> class Cr3Registry(Registry):
<cr3>   def items(self):
<cr3>     return (("foo": 1), ("bar": 2))
<cr3> factory = Cr3Registry
<cr3> Then, if I copy this code to a Python module called cr3.py under the registries directory, I could then query the cr3 namespace.
<cr3> For example, cr3.foo would be 1
<cr3> So, the same concept could be extended to lshal, /proc/cpuinfo, /proc/meminfo, dpkg, lsb_release, etc.
<cr3> In other words, the new Registry simply needs to define an items method and then the RegistryManager handles the rest.
<cr3> Another similarity with Plugins is that a repository benefits from integration with configuration files, which will be the final building block to understanding Checkbox.
<cr3> The configuration file(s) in Checkbox are mostly responsible for defining the behavior of the application.
<cr3> Checkbox tries to hard code as little policy as possible and delegates this responsibility to the configuration file(s)
<cr3> These files are in an .ini format and stored in the directory /etc/hwtest.d
<cr3> The default section of the configuration file, which is typically at the top, defines just a handful of variables:
<cr3> version: the version of the configuration file. this is stored in the configuration rather than the application because, as mentionned earlier, the configuration is mostly responsible for the behavior of the application
<cr3> includes: other configuration files to include. for example, the GTK and CLI configuration files which define the interface to use also include the base configuration
<cr3> plugins: name of the sections in the configuration file(s) which define plugin information, such as the directory where they are stored
<cr3> registries: similar as plugins, but defines registry information
<cr3> That's it for the default section. The rest strictly depends on what has been defined above.
<cr3> For example, if I defined: plugins = cr3/plugins. Then, I would define a section of the same name with plugin related attributes. For example:
<cr3> [cr3/plugins]
<cr3> directories = /tmp/plugins
<cr3> persist_filename = /tmp/plugins.persist
<cr3> blacklist = cr3
<cr3> So, all the plugins under /tmp/plugins will be parsed exacept for the cr3.py plugin because it has been blacklisted.
<cr3> I'm running out of time so that's about it for the configuration file, the rest could be easily understood from the existing files distributed with the Checkbox (previously known as hwtest) project.
<cr3> For more information, please visit the project available on Launchpad: https://launchpad.net/checkbox
<cr3> Enjoy!
<ara> thanks for the session!
<cody-somerville> \o/
<wasikevin> cr3: when is the class?
<cr3> wasikevin: class ended an hour ago, sorry dude
<cr3> wasikevin: the logs should be available as detailed in the topic: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDeveloperWeek
<wasikevin> cr3: thx
<wasikevin> cr3: sorry, I just noticed it.
<cr3> wasikevin: if you have any questions, please ask in #ubuntu-testing in case there's another class going on in here
#ubuntu-classroom 2008-10-07
<Azlx> hello people.
<Azlx> im looking for some help on ubuntu, and was hoping someone could give me some pointers.
<Azlx> is there anyone else out there?
#ubuntu-classroom 2009-10-06
<qwebirc6785> ?
<qwebirc6785> What is going on here now?
<pleia2> we don't have any classes scheduled at this time
<pietrubens> hello?
<jarlen> hello pietrubens
<jarlen> there is no classroom sessions now
<pietrubens> what does the classroom teach?
<pietrubens> is this a place to throw problems and questions regarding ununtu, or is this more an organized teaching session?
<jarlen> everything ubunturelated that people want to teach others
<nhandler> pietrubens: #ubuntu is the Ubuntu support channel
<jarlen> this is organized teaching sessions
<nalioth> ya know, we used to help folks in here when classes weren't using it
<nalioth> #ubuntu is too busy, so this channel would be used to bring folks and help them in a slower place
<jarlen> Ok, I didn't know that, actually
<jarlen> why not just use private messages, or similar?
<nalioth> because YOU don't know everything
<nalioth> YOU also don't have a support bot
<nalioth> YOU = any single person on the other end of a PM
#ubuntu-classroom 2009-10-08
<cyn> Is there going to be package training here?
#ubuntu-classroom 2009-10-09
<sistpoty> o/
<sebner> huhu sistpoty :D
<sistpoty> hi sebner
<sistpoty> so welcome everyone
<sistpoty> who's around for the practical fix ftbfs session?
 * slytherin raises hand
<joaopinto> I am until the baby starts crying :P
<RainCT> hey sistpoty
<sistpoty> ok, so while the last session tried to give a walkthrough, let's get our hands dirty in this one?
<sistpoty> I assume you know what FTBFS, BTS and PTS mean?
<sistpoty> anyone who doesn't?
<joaopinto> I don't know about BTS and PTS, bug tracking system, package tracking system ?
<sistpoty> exactly
<hggdh> BTS == Bug Tracking System indeed
<hggdh> PTS -- IDK
<sistpoty> so our worklist is still http://people.ubuntuwire.org/~wgrant/rebuild-ftbfs-test/test-rebuild-20090909-karmic.html
<sistpoty> every package there has a link to BTS and PTS, where a fix might already be in a) a newer version or b) sitting in a bug at debian
<sistpoty> of course looking at launchpad bugs page for a package also is a good idea
<sistpoty> afaik, the list is updated every 2 hours, and uploaded packages are marked as superseeded
<sistpoty> so everyone grab a package please, and tell which one you'll start working on
<RainCT> hggdh: PTS = Package Tracking System = http://packages.qa.debian.org/common/index.html
<joaopinto> I am getting checkinstall
 * sistpoty randomly grabs nstx
<slytherin> I have already filed three sync request, but they did not get processed. Should I bug archive admins?
 * fabrice_sp grabs contacts
<sistpoty> slytherin: depends how long these were in the queue... if these weren't handled during the last batch of syncs, then asking might make sense
<slytherin> they have been there for last two days
<fabrice_sp> what is the frequency of the batch of sync?
<sistpoty> slytherin: iirc there wasn't a batch yet, so patience :)
<sistpoty> fabrice_sp: no idea to be honest. I assume it depends on the workload of archive admins
<fabrice_sp> ok :-)
<slytherin> Ok. Iwill keep filing bugs.
<sistpoty> so as everyone got a package now, start fixing it :)
 * RainCT takes aegis
<sistpoty> if there's anything you have no clue how to fix it, ask :)
<sistpoty> ideally with a pasted log of the build error (the lines of the error suffice) and snippet of the code pasted
<sistpoty> so then we can all look and try to find out how to solve the issue
<sistpoty> and if anyone is done and can't upload himself, there should be many sponsors here :)
<hggdh> syspoty, please see http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/289481/ (nice, i386). What is the error here? Missing build-depends for jikes?
<hggdh> systpoty ^
<sistpoty> hggdh: looks more to me that jikes-classpath -> jikes cannot be satisfied
<sistpoty> hggdh: are you on i386?
<hggdh> no, amd64
<sistpoty> hggdh: oh
<sistpoty> hggdh: otherwise you could have tried to manually install build-dependencies
<slytherin> sistpoty: hggdh: jikes is removed form archives. Grab the version of nice from Debian and see if it builds. Should be a simple sync.
<sistpoty> hggdh: of course you could use a linux32 chroot (/me tries to recall the command to create one)
<hggdh> slytherin: from unstable?
 * fabrice_sp feels lucky: contacts only misses a build-dependency :-)
<slytherin> hggdh: yes
<hggdh> k
<joaopinto> installwatch fails to build due a scandir64 header mismatch
<sistpoty> joaopinto: need help or can you fix it?
<hggdh> jikes on Debian unstable is only for m68k
<slytherin> hggdh: I meant grab version of nice from Debian.
<joaopinto> I guess i just need to copy the new function definition from dirent.h
<hggdh> heh. Sorry
<sistpoty> hggdh: I'm quite clueless about java packages, but maybe there's a different -classpath to build-depend on?
<slytherin> sistpoty: I already gave him solution.
<sistpoty> :)
<slytherin> for problems with java packages, ping me
<hggdh> slytherin, sistpoty: unstable nice does not (build) depends on jike anymore.
<slytherin> hggdh: make sure it builds in karmic chroot and then use requestsync to file sync bug, attach the build log, Iwill mark the bug confirmed.
<hggdh> roger
<maco> -chat not in use
<maco> ?
 * slytherin is checking 'checkstyle' FTBFS
<sistpoty> maco: the session was announced only 2 hours, is there a conflicting schedule?
<sistpoty> 2 hours ago even
<maco> sistpoty: no i was confused to see > 1 person talking in here and nobody talking in -chat
<sistpoty> ah, well, it's an interactive session :)
<fabrice_sp> sistpoty is a champion organising meetings :-D
<sistpoty> haha
<slytherin> why is elisa source still in archives?
<RainCT> slytherin: packages.ubuntu.com shows python-elisa being build from it
<slytherin> that's weird, I thought everything was build from moovida now.
<slytherin> wow we have three source packages starting with name feisty. I guess they should be removed now.
<joaopinto> ok, checkinstall builds, but I have changed directly the source
<joaopinto> time to do a runtime test
<joaopinto> Patch 15fix-kfreebsd.diff does not remove cleanly (refresh it or enforce with -f)
<joaopinto> grrrrrrrrrrrrr
<hggdh> slytherin: I do not have a chroot available right now, so I submitted nice to my PPA
<joaopinto> I should have debclean first
<slytherin> hggdh: if it is too much trouble for you I will check and file sync bug
<hggdh> slytherin: no prob. I will wait for the PPA build to complete, and then open a sync req
<slytherin> ok
<hggdh> dammit. forgot to specify where the dput was going to :-(. Ah well, it will be refused, anyway
<maco> joaopinto: pbuilder is probably a cleaner way to test the build
<fabrice_sp_> contacts uploaded
 * fabrice_sp_ is looking for another sexy pacakge
<joaopinto> right now I am puzzled with the existing patchs versus my patch
<RainCT> sistpoty: http://paste.ubuntu.com/289506/ does that make sense?
<joaopinto> maco, I prefer chroots :P
<sistpoty> RainCT: is needle/haystack fumbled upon later? if not, it'd be better to declare haystack/needle as unsigned const char*
 * fabrice_sp_ is looking at comedilib
<maco> joaopinto: oh ok i thought you were doing just on the system without a chroot at all (though pbuilder is just an automated chroot, i think)
<joaopinto> arch, quilt, I do I add a new patch with quilt ?
<joaopinto> brb, 20 minutes, baby bath
<fabrice_sp_> joaopinto, you mean how?
<fabrice_sp_> ok
<slytherin> checkstyle has too many build-dep, download takes lot of time. moving on to other packages.
<sistpoty> RainCT: if the contents are changed later, it makes sense. (though the slightly more readable way is needle=const_cast<unsigne char *>(haystack_start);)
<sistpoty> (applying for c++)
<RainCT> sistpoty: does haystack++ qualify as "fumbled upon"?
<sistpoty> RainCT: no... *haytack=... would imply that
<sistpoty> *haystack =
<sistpoty> even though fumbled upon is a vague term, I admit :P
<RainCT> sistpoty: well, the problem is it complains because of "memchr(haystack, *needle, haystack_len)", which I see at http://www.cplusplus.com/reference/clibrary/cstring/memchr/ is overloaded for both "const void*" and "void*"
<RainCT> so dunno why it complains, maybe because it's doing "return memchr(..)" and the function is defined as returning "void *"?
<RainCT> or because of the second arugment being const?
<sistpoty> RainCT: can you paste the entire function?
<joaopinto> fabrice_sp, yes, sorry, I meant, how
<slytherin> sync requested for libgnu-regexp-java
<fabrice_sp> joaopinto, quilt new <patch name> to create the patch
<joaopinto> grr, a glibc change and quilt was not a goood choice :P
<fabrice_sp> quilt add zfile> to add a file to the patch
<fabrice_sp> lol
<RainCT> seems to be the later
<RainCT> ah no, it failed :P
<joaopinto> fabrice_sp, do i need to care in which stage of the build I am ? like debclean first ?
<RainCT> grr, I should fix cowbuilder on my laptop, compiling on the netbook is awful :P
<fabrice_sp> joaopinto, better have a clean env before patching
<RainCT> sistpoty: http://paste.debian.net/48656
<joaopinto> well, a proper fix for this wold require a GLIBC version check, but let it just build
<slytherin> sync requested for libgnujmi-java
<sistpoty> RainCT: ah, it's an extern "C" function. That's a very interesting construct, because it sees the c++ definition
<sistpoty> RainCT: so the fix is in line 32 of your past
<sistpoty> RainCT: return (void *)memchr(haystack, *needle, haystack_len);
<joaopinto> I need to read a quilt howto
<RainCT> sistpoty: ah! ok, thanks
<RainCT> joaopinto: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide/PatchSystems#quilt%20%28example%20package:%20xterm%29 :)
<sistpoty> joaopinto: in short: export QUILT_PATCHES=debian/patches
<sistpoty> joaopinto: quilt push -a
<sistpoty> joaopinto: quilt new <name_of_your_patch>
<sistpoty> joaopinto: quilt shell (then edit all files of interest, exit subshell)
<sistpoty> joaopinto: quilt refresh
<sistpoty> joaopinto: quilt pop -a
<joaopinto> ok, let me add that to my notes
<joaopinto> tks
<RainCT> Oh, nice. So that annoying "quilt add .. # and if you forget it you're screwed" isn't needed?? and I didn't know until now???? :P
<sistpoty> RainCT: /me overheard it in -motu recently ;)
<fabrice_sp> I've just discovered quilt shell :-/
<fabrice_sp> hmmm, comedilib is not  a so nice choice (problems with regenerating configure script :-/ )
<joaopinto> janito@janito-desktop:/tmp/quilt-mU0V5M$ quilt refresh
<joaopinto> Nothing in patch 20glibc2.10-scanw.diff
<joaopinto> is this the expected output from refresh ?
<RainCT> no
<slytherin> joaopinto: you need to exit the shell first then do refresh
<joaopinto> oh, ops, forgot to exit :P
<slytherin> filed sync request for libpicocontainer-java
<sistpoty> slytherin: I believe you're a robot with your ftbfs-fixing speed :P
<slytherin> I think I am done. Filed quite a few sync requests which were easy to verify. Others are difficult because of the download required (and it is 1:30 am here)
<slytherin> I will continue tomorrow
<sistpoty> thanks a lot slytherin!
<slytherin> you are welcome.
<funkyHat> Ok I'm looking at the pygobject ftbfs, because it looked quite simple to fix, but the script missing is confusing me
<funkyHat> I'm pretty sure I just need to bump the versions of automake and autoconf it's looking for
<fabrice_sp> the error "The important program mcopidl was not found!" should be fixed by adding --without-arts to configure script, no?
<sistpoty> fabrice_sp: afict, yes
<slytherin> hggdh: are you done with nice build?
<sistpoty> funkyHat: does it run autotools during build? or just the configure?
<sistpoty> funkyHat: if the latter, I assume you could try to regenerate the autotools as a patch
<fabrice_sp> sistpoty, if it does not work, what else can I try ? (log: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/289531/)
 * funkyHat feels stupid. How would I do that?
<sistpoty> funkyHat: run autoreconf -i in the top-src-directory (assuming you have build-depends installed)
<sistpoty> fabrice_sp: have you tried to run configure --help manually?
<sistpoty> fabrice_sp: maybe it's --disable-arts
<fabrice_sp> ohhh, right
<sistpoty> fabrice_sp: others than that, I guess the solution is found in configure.ac (or configure.in whichever exists)
<fabrice_sp> ok. Will check both.
<fabrice_sp> thansk ;-)
<sistpoty> thanks for trying to fix it :)
<funkyHat> I have done quilt push -a first,  this is right isn't it?
<sistpoty> funkyHat: and have QUILT_PATCHES set? then yes
<funkyHat> Yes I set that too :)
<sistpoty> funkyHat: then quilt shell
<sistpoty> funkyHat: autoreconf -i
<sistpoty> funkyHat: cross fingers :P
<funkyHat> ah, quilt shell, I didn't do that -.-
<funkyHat> can I do quilt add . ?
<sistpoty> funkyHat: no idea really, have discovered how quilt works myself only recently. maybe someone else knows?
<sistpoty> <- back in 5 minutes
<funkyHat> I'll start again, not like I've done anything complicated
<slytherin> hggdh: I am done with nice build. I will file sync request if you are not doing it.
<sebner> funkyHat: . might work too or you use quilt add *  :)
<funkyHat> sebner: ah, yeah * may have worked, too late!
<sebner> heh
<funkyHat> oh, I just did quilt shell before creating a new patch. bah!
<slytherin> hggdh: done. filed sync request for nice.
<joaopinto> W: checkinstall source: package-uses-deprecated-debhelper-compat-version 4
<joaopinto> should I fix this ?
<joaopinto> or i should simply introduce furhter differences to the Debian package ?
<joaopinto> erm, avoid introducing
<funkyHat> Ok, the patch quilt has generated is 50k lines long... so I'm missing something :D
<sistpoty> joaopinto: at feature freeze, try to keep the changes to a minimum, so don't fix lintian warnings
<joaopinto> ok, added a 2 lines patch , it builds, next, changelog ?
<sistpoty> joaopinto: yep
<sistpoty> funkyHat: that's quite usual for running autotools
<joaopinto> checkinstall (1.6.1-8ubuntu1) karmic; urgency=low
<joaopinto> looks good ?
<sistpoty> yes
<sistpoty> but add some content :)
<funkyHat> http://ubuntu.pastebin.com/m6816d943 is the list of files that quilt adds when I exit the shell
 * fabrice_sp uploaded cyclades-serial-client
<sistpoty> funkyHat: you can drop config.h.in~ (backup file)
<sistpoty> funkyHat: but all others are expected
<sistpoty> funkyHat: eventually you can drop the files in autom4te.cache (not too sure though)
<funkyHat> Is there a simple way to do that with quilt?
<funkyHat> Oh, remove :)
<joaopinto> sistpoty, http://pastebin.com/m666b289f <- looks good ?
<sistpoty> joaopinto: maybe describe what it does? (as in change foobar to fix FTBFS)?
<joaopinto> ok
<joaopinto> grrr, brb
<fabrice_sp> anybody have an idea about "channel.c:3437: error: format not a string literal and no format arguments"
<sistpoty> fabrice_sp: generally yes, but not without the context
<fabrice_sp> line is "sendto_local_ops_flag(UMODE_SERVNOTICE, get_str(STR_SPLIT_MODE_OFF));"
<fabrice_sp> sorry
<fabrice_sp> I'll pastebin the source
<sistpoty> fabrice_sp: which package is this? source of the function might not give what I'm looking for (definition of UMODE_SERVNOTICE, definition of senddto_local_ops_flag)
<fabrice_sp> dancer-ircd
 * sistpoty looks
<fabrice_sp> it seems to be because of the get_str call
<funkyHat> sistpoty: so is the massive patch going to cause problems (assuming, of course what I've done actually fixes it)?
<sistpoty> funkyHat: nope, it's just rerunning autotools ;)
<funkyHat> Ok :), just seems a bit weird putting such a huge patch in debian/patches
<sistpoty> fabrice_sp: that's just done really, really ugly from what I've seen :(
<fabrice_sp> :-/
<sistpoty> fabrice_sp: in src/numeric.c, you can see the string definitions for get_str
<funkyHat> Could I run autoreconf -i in debian/rules instead?
<sistpoty> fabrice_sp: if these don't have any format character in them, you can use sendto_local_ops_flag(UMODE_SERVNOTICE, "%s", get_str(STR_SPLIT_MODE_OFF));
<sistpoty> fabrice_sp: which in this case is the right thing, but I'm sure there are other occurances as well
<sistpoty> funkyHat: then you'd need to build-depend on automake
<fabrice_sp> sistpoty, ok. I'll check the content of the string
<sistpoty> fabrice_sp: for this case, it should work... just seen it ;)
<fabrice_sp> cool :-D
<funkyHat> Well, I'll wait and see if this even compiles to begin with :)
<joaopinto> sistpoty, Added patches/20glibc2.10-scandir required to build with glibc2.10
<sistpoty> \o/
<joaopinto> the line on changelog
<joaopinto> erm, my apt-cacher-ng is broken
<funkyHat> This is the new build log, after running autoreconf -i http://pastebin.com/f462d33dd -- still pretty broken
<joaopinto> well, it will build, what's the next step ?
<funkyHat> What's actually causing the build to fail?
<sistpoty> joaopinto: upload it (or paste the debdiff somewhere, then I'll upload it)
<joaopinto> where can I upload it to ?
 * fabrice_sp is tired. Will continue tomorrow morning
<fabrice_sp> bye
<sistpoty> joaopinto: if you're a motu straight to the archive
<joaopinto> ok, I am not, next option :P
<sistpoty> joaopinto: otherwise either paste the debdiff somewhere or attach it to a bug ;)
<joaopinto> ok, let me check the initial page, is there an LP bug listed there ?
<joaopinto> uff, debdiff, I need to check how to generate that
<joaopinto> ok, that one is easy
<joaopinto> hum, something is wrong, the patch is not shown on the debdiff, only the changelog change
<joaopinto> brb
<sistpoty> funkyHat: defsgen.py is listed twice to installe somewhere (question is where though)
<funkyHat> Oh, it was just that line that was the problem, for some reason I thought that didn't look important enough
<funkyHat> it's twice in codegen/Makefile.{am,im} - which one of those generates the other?
<funkyHat> *in
<funkyHat> Ah, it tells me :)
<sistpoty> funkyHat: Makefile.am generates .in if autotools are run. Usually Makefile.in is shipped by upstream and used as in the builds (which then generates the Makefile by the configure run)
<sistpoty> funkyHat: so if there's no build-dependency on automake you'll need to patch both
<funkyHat> So I should correct Makefile.am and then re-run autoreconf -i, and then update my patch in quilt
<sistpoty> funkyHat: probably simpler is to directly patch Makefile.am/Makefile.in, but whatever you prefer
<funkyHat> True :)
<funkyHat> Was good practise using quilt though ;)
<funkyHat> aha! It built
<funkyHat> Now, is there anything obvious I can do to test it before I submit my debdiff?
<funkyHat> (pygobject)
<sistpoty> funkyHat: also submit it to debian or upstream ;)
<sistpoty> funkyHat: but others than that, no
<funkyHat> Should I just submit the quilt patch I created?
<funkyHat> Don't know if they'll like it, as it's rather huge
<sistpoty> funkyHat: ideally just the diff of Makefile.am (and eventually a Makefile.in)
<sistpoty> funkyHat: the rest should be recreatable by running autotools, right?
<funkyHat> Right :)
<joaopinto> sistpoty, any ideas why the new patch would not show up on debdiff ?
<sistpoty> joaopinto: not too sure actually... did you eventually overwrite the old source package (calling debuild prior to adding a changelog entry?)
<joaopinto> hum, that could be
<joaopinto> let me get the original diff
<joaopinto> sistpoty, it was that, next time i need to add the changelog entry first to be safe
<sistpoty> joaopinto: yes, that's what I'm usually doing as first step ;)
<sistpoty> (even if I just write "fix things" in it to make sure to get a new version)
<joaopinto> is there a bug associated with the FTBFS event ?
<joaopinto> I mean at LP
<sistpoty> joaopinto: not for universe
<joaopinto> :(
<joaopinto> where should I attach the debdiff to ?
<sistpoty> joaopinto: unless someone filed one by hand of course
<sistpoty> joaopinto: file a new one ;)
<joaopinto> ok
<funkyHat> Where can I find debian FTBFS? I don't see this bug reported at b.d.o
<sistpoty> funkyHat: there isn't really a list. however installing a file twice is certainly a bug
<joaopinto> erm, let me do a runtime test first
<funkyHat> sistpoty: right, so I'll just file a bug for that the
<funkyHat> *then
<sistpoty> yes
<funkyHat> sistpoty: ah, debian are on a more recent version of the package than we are...
<funkyHat> I should have checked that, shouldn't I?
<sistpoty> funkyHat: yes, always check that first ;)
<funkyHat> wheee
<funkyHat> Right
 * sistpoty files a sync request for nufw
<sistpoty> ok, as it's getting more and more quiet in here, let's move to #ubuntu-motu, shall we?
 * funkyHat moves
<sistpoty> btw.: all the questions you have asked here are very much ontopic for #ubuntu-motu as well :)
#ubuntu-classroom 2009-10-10
<venkatam> date -u
#ubuntu-classroom 2010-10-11
<sebsebseb> Hi
<svenkatkumar> hi, i wasnt able to attend today's session ,pls tell me  from where can i get the things taught ?
<AndrewMC> svenkatkumar: irclogs.ubuntu.com
<svenkatkumar> thank you
<jcastro> 10 minutes until we begin!
<thiebaude> :)
<MooDoo> hello all
<jcastro> we start in about 4 minutes!
<jono> alrighty
<jono> let's wait a min for late stragglers
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Introduction and Random Q&A - Instructors: jono, jcastro
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2010/10/11/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<jono> alrighty!
<jono> welcome everyone to Ubuntu Open Week!
<jono> here we are for another weekly dose of content designed to get you all excited about being part of the Ubuntu community!
<jono> just as we kick off, I want to say a big thankyou to akgraner and jcastro for working hard on putting the week together
 * jcastro waves!
<akgraner> :-)
<jono> we have done this for a number of releases now, and we have always found it a useful method of helping to get people involved in Ubuntu :-)
<jono> I just wanted to talk for a few moments before we do the general Q+A
<jono> and then we will throw it open and jcastro and I are going to answer whatever questions you like
<jono> for those of you who don't know me, I am Jono Bacon, the Ubuntu Community Manager, and jcastro is Jorge Castro who is our Ubuntu Upstream Relations Coordinator who works on my team
<jono> we both work at Canonical to help grow a strong and empower Ubuntu community
<jono> I believe Ubuntu has come a long way in recent years
<jono> when we started out we had a very clear focus - built the best Operating System we could
<jono> one designed for Linux enthusiasts and geeks
<jono> when the project started the goal was to bring real simplicity and focus in a world typically dominated by high technology
<jono> the global Ubuntu community wrapped their arms around this challenge, and it didn't take long before Ubuntu became the distro of choice for many Linux users
<jono> I would go to conferences and see pretty much everyone using Ubuntu
<jono> and throughout this time we would all feel a real satisfaction in "bringing Free Software to people"
<jono> today though, we face a much loftier challenge and opportunity
<jono> we have the potential to bring Free Software to *millions* of computer users around the world
<jono> the kind of people who have no idea what IRC is, what Linux is, how technology works
<jono> the kind of people whose priority in life is something other than computers
<jono> there are millions of end users around the world who are dissatisifed with Microsoft and Apple
<jono> they are tired of the limitations of those products, their cost, and want something better
<jono> and I firmly believe that Ubuntu can be that solution
<jono> in business circles this is typically revered to as "crossing the chasm"; a term that has become so clichÃ©d and common that it is almost embarressing to say it
<jcastro> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossing_the_Chasm
<jono> but it is true nonetheless, the theory goes that there is a chasm between initial adoption (e.g. Linux users loving ubuntu) and the mass computer user base using Ubuntu
<jono> many have thought they can get over that chasm, and many have tried
<jono> to build a bridge of the chasm required new thinking and new things - it needs marketing towards those users, technical features that are missing that they need, support resources, and more
<jono> and while many have failed to get over, it is typically because they only have limited resources and can't put every step into the bridge that is needed
<jono> well, we are differet
<jono> different
<jono> we can
<jono> we can build every step because we have an incredible global community
<jono> and to build each step required many different disciplines - we need developers, packagers, testers, translators, support folks, advocates, and more
<jono> getting over the chasm isnt for people who are ultra-technical, it is not just for people with a Canonical paycheck
<jono> it is something that every single one of you can help with
<jono> Ubuntu Open Week is all about that
<jono> it is all about enabling you folks to build a step in that bridge to get us over the chasm
<jono> and the opportunity i intense - just think about the world enjoying Free Software via Ubuntu
<jono> think of the money saved by charities and education, the better reliance on better technology, safer computing with a barely recognizable virus threat, software that everyone has a right to, that everyone has an opportunity to make better
<jono> this is why we are here, and this is why every single one of us is critical to our success together in bringing Free Software to the world
<jono> to do this we have an awesome new release, the Maverick Meerkat
<jono> and this week we have a week jam packed with awesome sessions, and you can see the list of sessions at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
<jono> so, without further ado
<jono> let
<jono> lets get into the Q+A
<jono> want to kick it off jcastro?
<jcastro> sure
<jcastro> Since 10.10 just came out, why don't you guys pile up some questions for the bot in -classroom-chat
<jono> jcastro, why don't you explain how to ask questiond
<jcastro> let me explain how questions work
<jono> :)
<jcastro> In #ubuntu-classroom-chat you ask the ClassBot a question
<jcastro> but he needs it in a certain format to work
<jcastro> so you do it in this format:
<jcastro> ClassBot: QUESTION: What's your favorite Iron Maiden album?
<jcastro> and then classbot will present them in this channel and we'll answer them
<jcastro> (all questions qill be asked like this for the entire week)
<jcastro> (ok the bot seems busted at the moment, give us a second)
<jcastro> ok, so you don't need the classbot bit
<jcastro> just like this:
<jcastro> QUESTION: What's Ubuntu?
<jcastro> (technical difficulties, bear with us for a moment)
<ClassBot> Fifthmarch asked: Can I get the final release of 10.10 by updating the beta version I have
<jono> Fifthmarch, yep
<jono> :)
<jcastro> Just use the normal update-manager and you'll be set
<ClassBot> guiwegian asked: How to upgrade to 10.10 from 10.4 with update manager?
<jcastro> In order to upgrade you can use the update manager
<jcastro> http://www.ubuntu.com/desktop/get-ubuntu/upgrade
<jcastro> this page has all the information you need for upgrading your version of ubuntu
<ClassBot> ChrisWoollard asked: When will the wiki.ubuntu theme be changed to the modern style?
<jono> ChrisWoollard, yep
<jono> it is planned
<jcastro> in fact
<jcastro> you can play with it now by choosing "Ubuntu Light" theme in your preferences
<jcastro> it's just not turned on by default while the web team fixes the little bugs
<ClassBot> Pernig asked: It took quite a long time for me to upgrade to Meerkat, and it doesn't seem that much different. What's new in this release?
<jcastro> jono: this would be a good time to tell us what your favorite features for 10.10 are
<jono> Pernig, all the details are on http://www.ubuntu.com of the new features
<jono> personally I love:
<jono>  * Unity in the netbook edition - an awesome new interface for Ubuntu
<jono>  * the sound indicator menu improvements
<jono>  * a raft of Ubuntu Software Center improvements
<jono>  * lots of new software updates
<jono>  * shotwell is now shipped with Ubuntu
<jono> those are my main ones
<jcastro> I personally dig updates in the installer, and the nice new checkbox to get multimedia support in the installer.
<jono> what about you, jcastro?
<jono> :)
<jcastro> Did you know we do multitasking in the installer?
<jcastro> after you partition, it starts installing
<jono> :)
<jcastro> while you're filling out your name and all that
<jcastro> instead of just sitting there!
<jono> that's cool
<ClassBot> drcooper asked: Is this session for technical questions? (I dont think so...if not sm1tell these people)
<jcastro> We can answer some technical questions (based on our knowledge), if something is more detailed you can probably get better support on the ubuntu mailing lists, ubuntu forums, or askubuntu.com
<jcastro> mostly this is an intro session this hour-long block to kick off the week
<jcastro> If the bot doesn't ask your question in here it means we have no clue. :)
<ClassBot> daker asked: When will the ubuntu forums got a new light theme ?
<jcastro> jono: any idea about this one? I know they are working on it.
<jcastro> it's a little complicated for the forums because they are also in the process of a major update to the forum software, so for them it's not just a simple matter of updating the theme
<jono> jcastro, I am not sure, I know it is on the TODO list for the team
<ClassBot> Marceau asked: my ubuntu pc is on a very slow connection, but I donwloaded the 10.10 iso. Is it possible to upgrade using the iso?
<jcastro> It sure is, stick the CD in and choose upgrade
<jcastro> (You'll have to boot off the CD)
<ClassBot> OwaisL asked: At last UDS we had a session by the name, "making nautilus awesome" or something but nothing happened to nautilus. Are there any plans for Natty? Why not just ship nautilus-elementary?
<jcastro> That's a good question; I happened to be at that session
<jcastro> The improvements to nautilus likely weren't done due to lack of resources
<jcastro> (this is why we're always looking for developers)
<jono> OwaisL, shipping Nautilus Elementary is not as simple as just packaging it
<jono> naultilus is a key part of the desktop and changing it is risky
<jcastro> as far as what file manager to ship, that is a decision the desktop team makes
<jono> I am not sure why there are no major changes to nautilus though
<jcastro> (convincing the -elementary folks to get their fixes upstream to nautilus would be a win for everyone)
<ClassBot> RibPreto-Brasil asked: Is it out of question to move back window buttons to right or do you consider that sometimes?
<jono> let me take this one
<jono> the change of the the windows buttons was a cosmetic change with a functional benefit made two releases ago
<jono> those of you who use Unity can see why the buttons on the left are a benefit - the buttons merge into the top panel and save a lot of space
<jono> there are no plans to move the window buttons
<jono> and frankly, I think we have bigger fish to fry and problems to solve :)
<ClassBot> sandersch asked: Will Ubuntu Netbook Edition be pre-loaded on netbooks?
<jono> sandersch, yep
<jcastro> You can already get UNE preloaded today from vendors like system76 and zareason
<ClassBot> awk asked: Is the ubuntu font available for other platforms as well ?
<jcastro> certainly
<jcastro> it's just a .ttf
<jcastro> see http://font.ubuntu.com for more details and downloads
<ClassBot> ChrisWoollard asked: Will you switch to Libre Office in 11.04? (What is your take on that openoffice / libreoffice issue?
<jcastro> Mark mentioned that we would be supporting it in the press release. I suspect this issue will be discussed at length at the Ubuntu Developer Summit
<jcastro> keep your eyes on http://uds.ubuntu.com to see when libreoffice will be discussed, I'm sure it will be announced when the final decision is made
<jcastro> That is something I personally am looking forward to in 11.04!
<ClassBot> professorb asked: Lucid was a milestone release and I feel Meerkat hasn't changed a lot, but that's because Lucid was so good, it feels like Ubuntu isn't making as many major changes because it's got a lot of things right, but with that in mind what's next for Ubuntu, what big changes can come?
<jcastro> As the above answer, this is discussed at UDS
<jcastro> I don't want to dodge the question but for real, we'll know in about 2 weeks. :)
<jcastro> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/sprints/uds-n
<jcastro> this page has the incoming blueprints to what's coming up to be discussed at UDS
<jcastro> please feel free to read and subscribe to those to get a feel for what's going on in the project
<ClassBot> drcooper asked: Why isnt Lubuntu be an official variant yet?
<jcastro> This is something a lubuntu person can probably answer better
<jcastro> I do know that they've been putting a bunch of work into becoming an official variant
<jcastro> we always try to encourage people who build on ubuntu to get involved, so I am looking forward to having another ubuntu
<jcastro> I personally just tried lubuntu on an older machine and it is pretty slick, that team is doing a great job!
<ClassBot> AndrewMC asked: On linux mint they have xchat preinstalled that once opened would join you automatically into their on and off topic rooms, has Ubuntu ever considered doing this?... i personally think it is a good idea as it would make it easier for people to get support
<jcastro> We used to install xchat by default many years ago
<jcastro> but these days IRC is a little bit too geeky for a general purpose OS to ship out of the box
<jcastro> some people are really passionate about this (for understandable reasons)
<jcastro> but currently we offer empathy for rudimentary support of IRC in the default install
<jcastro> and for users that want a more hardcore client (like irssi, ftw) they can install it via the ubuntu software center.
<ClassBot> nisshh asked: It was mentioned some time ago, that 'Windicator's' would replace where the window button's used to be, is this planned for Natty?
<jono> nisshh, not sure
<jono> windicators was an idea Mark had but I have seen little implementation work on it
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<ClassBot> nisshh asked: Will there be a fixed-width version of the new Ubuntu font for terminals?
<jcastro> I know the team is currently focused on the current font
<jcastro> I don't /believe/ there will be a fixed-width version (remembering from the original session)
<jcastro> this might be a good question to ask on the ayatana mailing list
<ClassBot> ChrisWoollard asked: Can you give me a job at Canonical? ;)
<jono> nisshh, there is a monospace font I believe
<jono> ChrisWoollard, apply :-)
<jcastro> http://webapps.ubuntu.com/employment/
<ClassBot> drcooper asked: Is it possible to get apt work like a bittorrent system so as to speed up installations? I am referring to a model in which users will be seeding packages.
<jcastro> we've been on-and-off looking at ways to improve the download performance for users
<jcastro> there have been rsync-like proposals for apt
<jcastro> all of those ideas are currently still being discussed, I don't think anyone has figured out exactly how to do delta-debs in a way that is useful for people without causing more load on the mirrors
<jcastro> so the best answer to this is "not yet"
<ClassBot> RibPreto-Brasil asked: It is extremely awful that the installer uses Internet connection without user permission. Cant you let the 'first update' after first boot, and warning user about that??
<jcastro> Please file a bug in the installer or mention it on the ubuntu-devel list. The package name is "ubiquity"
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<jcastro> woo, no more questions, the queue is empty
<jcastro> ask them while we have time!
<jcastro> (Remember that at this time on Thursday Mark will be holding a session just like this)
<jcastro> to answer your questions that we might not have been able to give you good detail on
<jcastro> !q
<jono> also folks, I do weekly videocast Q+A sessions on ustream
<ClassBot> ChrisWoollard asked: When is Ubuntu One for windows due?
<jono> www.ustream.tv/channel/at-home-with-jono-bacon
<jcastro> According to U1 team member Josh Hoover: http://askubuntu.com/questions/1276/when-will-ubuntu-one-for-windows-be-released/5832#5832
<jcastro> beta within the next couple o weeks!
<jcastro> keep an eye on their blog for details
<ClassBot> ewaldmire asked: is any work being done to get Ubuntu on HP and more Dell systems?
<jcastro> Last question
<jono> thanks for all the questions folks
<jcastro> Yes, we're always working with OEMs to get ubuntu on more machines
<jono> our OEM team are always actively working with vendors
<jcastro> http://webapps.ubuntu.com/certification/
<jcastro> see this page for details
<jcastro> ok, that's it, whew
<jcastro> Thanks everyone for kicking off the week
<jcastro> we'll be having specific sessions the rest of the week
<jcastro> check the schedule https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
<jcastro> and feel free to participate, and thanks for coming!
<jcastro> up next Laura is going to educate us on how to improve your LoCo team
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Helping LoCo Teams Help themselves - Instructors: Czajkowski
<czajkowski> Aloha, Greetings from the Ubuntu LoCo Council, in case some of you are unfamiliar with us there are 6 of us elected by the CC for a 2 year term to help loco teams, approve and re approve teams and be there to mediate when necessary.  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoCouncil   I'm here today to talk to you about how teams can help themselves and to possible give you some ideas on how to improve or if you are looking at settin
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2010/10/11/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<czajkowski> up a team what you could be doing to help the process along.
<czajkowski> We idle in #ubuntu-locoteams and if you are looking for us you can say loco-council or loco council and that pings us.  Also by contacting us on email  loco-council<at>lists.ubuntu.com.   We're elected to help people and come from various backgrounds and are active in our teams plus on other Ubuntu related teams.  So if you do need us just ask we want to help
<czajkowski> So some helpful resources for teams, we do notice there are a lot of active teams out there but there are others who do need some guidelines and often just having a simple set of guidelines can help a team operate better/more smoothly.
<czajkowski>  We set up a Best Guidelines and Practices wiki, and it has been translated but we're always looking for more translations:
<czajkowski> These are only suggestions we'd encourage all teams to do but we also appreciate some teams do it differently, however we have found that these checklists DO WORK and those teams that follow them, are active and visible teams. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoCouncil/LoCoTeamsBestPracticesandGuidelines
<czajkowski> does anyone have any questions so far?
<czajkowski> It's broken down into a monthly to do list
<czajkowski> and a cycle based list
<czajkowski> this will help teams get organised.  I am a firm believer in lists!
<czajkowski> you can make a list and then cross off or action people to help with areas and share out tasks, sharing our tasks is the best way for a team to happy and active. no point in taking it all on board!
<ClassBot> RibPreto-Brasil asked: what are LoCo teams?
<czajkowski> RibPreto-Brasil: A loco team is a group of ubuntu enthuastics
<czajkowski> who meet or talk on IRC mailing lists on Ubuntu related topics
<ClassBot> mhall119 asked: where can I find a LoCo team near me?
<czajkowski> we have this great facality called the Loco directory http://loco.ubuntu.com/
<czajkowski> and here it lists all of the loco teams that we have at present
<czajkowski> it also lists their contact details
<czajkowski> events they are running
<czajkowski> and how to get in contact with them
<czajkowski> it's extremely useful!
<ClassBot> drcooper asked: Is there a minimum number of members necessary to set up a LoCo Team ?
<czajkowski> drcooper: nope there isn't
<czajkowski> the more the merrier!
<czajkowski> people getting together to work on Ubuntu is always encouraged!
<czajkowski> Did you know that twice a month the LoCo Council meet? We run a loco health check once a month which is more of an informal discussion session, we encourage people to add topics they'd like more information on, or would like other teams to discuss and we try and get some feed back.
<czajkowski> Anyone can add a topic to the health check we just ask you to please turn up for the meeting.  Next cycle if there is still interest in the session we could look at changing or rotating the meeting session ?  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoCouncil/LoCoHealthCheck
<czajkowski> the idea of these sessions is to get discssion happening, give feedback on items such as the guidelines and best practices
<czajkowski> or the Loco directory
<czajkowski> or how to get members more involved
<ClassBot> yantraShilpi asked: I'm assuming increasing LoCo activity is very important. Is there a compilation evangelization tools and ideas for increasing LoCo activity?
<czajkowski> yantraShilpi: Not as such
<czajkowski> we have a vast network, and you have the loco -contacts mailing list
<czajkowski> and #ubuntu-lococontacts channel
<czajkowski> and the microblogging #tag #locteams
<czajkowski> ways of communicating with other teams and getting people to give you feedback on discussion items
<ClassBot> drcooper asked: Could you brief us on the mandatory activities to be taken up by a LoCo team to qualify as an official one
<czajkowski> drcooper: good question, while there are no offical mandatory activities being active by having monthly meetings
<czajkowski> or getting disucssions happening on your mailing list or fourms
<czajkowski> if possible going to events or organaning your own events all count
<czajkowski> drcooper: having just 2 people doing this makes it a bit harder to approve having 10 people makes it easier
<czajkowski> sorry to clarify earlier the #tag is #locoteams
<czajkowski> The Council meets once a month for the approval and re approval of teams. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoCouncil/TeamApprovalGuidelines  and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoCouncil/LoCoTeamReApproval
<czajkowski> If  you are going through one of these processes, you can ask us to have a look at your application prior to the event this makes it easier on all parties and we can give you some pointers if you are missing information.
<czajkowski> If you are being re approved this is a standard process that will happen after about 2 years and you just have to go through the same process as before and show us you are still being active.
<czajkowski> Have details on your application
<czajkowski> name of team how many are in the team launchpad page irc page etc
<czajkowski> Have photos! and links to blog posts or mailing list annoucements
<czajkowski> tell us what you've done, don't expect us to go through your mailing list loking for  the information
<czajkowski> How can we tell if you're active?
<czajkowski> Things teams can do to show how active you are doing, TAKE PHOTOS ! I cannot stress how helpful this is to you and to the council to be able to see the event happened! It also is a great way to tell others about the work you are doing as a photo often can show or explain things better than words.
<czajkowski> BLOG! about the event once it's in the stages of being planned! Tell people about it! Tell people after the event happened! Let people know how it went!
<czajkowski> use the microtag #locoteams it shows up on the loco directory (LD) and also encourages others to try similar events
<czajkowski> TEAM REPORTS!!!! TELL the rest of the Ubuntu community about the work you are doing, an easy way to do this  and yes it is easy telling me it's not easy doesn't work :)
<czajkowski>  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TeamReportsCreate a team reporting section under your team heading page, and each month get a person to create the main reporting month ie. OCTOBER and get them to add the basic content to it,
<czajkowski> ie. Team meeting, Ubuntu hour, activity on the mailing list etc and then get them to post it to the team mailing list and ask people to add content to it.  Team reports will be part of the approval and re approval application as of next cycle!
<czajkowski> Leading by example we do our own team reports! https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoCouncil/TeamReports
<czajkowski> there are over 140 loco teams!
<czajkowski> as of last month only 28 did team reports :(
<czajkowski> we could spread the Ubuntu word so much more if teams told one another what they are doing
<czajkowski> it helps and encourages others to try similar activites
<czajkowski> Team issues:
<czajkowski> If a team is having a issue, try and resolve the matter internally or talk to the team leader or point of contact.  IF this fails do come talk to us.  We are a 3rd party and want to help, there is no shame in coming to us, nobody should be made to feel bad for coming to us either. We idle in a few team channels which we are working on helping.
<czajkowski> as I said earlier on we idle in #ubuntu-locoteams and if you say loco-council it pings us
<czajkowski> we can discuss things in there or we can discuss items privately
<czajkowski> if teams are having issues with domain names, Mailing lists trademarks issues if you come to us first we can help with those also
<ClassBot> xuacu asked: QUESTION: Could team reports be integrated in team pages of the LoCo Directory?
<czajkowski> xuacu: there has been a bug logged about this
<czajkowski> we have develoeprs who would like to see this happen also
<czajkowski> but at present it has not been worked on
<czajkowski> the LD Developers are always looking for help
<czajkowski> http://loco.ubuntu.com/about/
<czajkowski> and welcome patches and volunteers to work on the project
<czajkowski> Any more questions ?
<czajkowski> There are numerous teams listed on http://loco.ubuntu.com/teams/
<czajkowski> if there is none near you or close by
<czajkowski> join #ubuntu-locoteams and chat with others
<czajkowski> or join a channel of a team near by or of the same language and meet others
<ClassBot> AlanBell asked: should loco teams be a legal entity with a bank account etc?
<czajkowski> hmmm
<czajkowski> so some teams depending on their location have had to do this
<czajkowski> but honestly, I don't see a need for it unless you are handing large sums of money
<czajkowski> if you are going to selling t-shirts or items to raise funds for your team that's one thing
<czajkowski> but becoming a legal entitiy is a lot more work and not always needed imo
<ClassBot> michael_k asked: Sometimes we run very short of people. Any suggestion on operating on a skeleton crew?
<czajkowski> michael_k: ok, what I'd suggest here is spread some of the core items among the people
<czajkowski> have a team contact
<czajkowski> that's the main priority or someone who can relied upon to pass information from the loco contacts mailing list to your team so they are up to date
<czajkowski> that person can chair your meetings
<czajkowski> also when you have meetings, PLEASE PLEASE post the minutes of the meeting and outcomes to your mailing list or forum this helps get others interested and also for people who may not be able to make the meeting
<czajkowski> have someone if possible to do the team report each month that way it gets done
<czajkowski> I understand that some teams are small, mine is also but we share the tasks out
<czajkowski> we have a person over the mailing list
<czajkowski> the website
<czajkowski> and it works well
<ClassBot> Pernig asked: Where and who would be my first point of contact to get involved in an existing Loco team?
<czajkowski> Pernig: I'd go first to http://loco.ubuntu.com/teams/ and find the team closest to me, so in this example I'll pick my team http://loco.ubuntu.com/teams/ubuntu-ie
<czajkowski> I can see here their channel is #ubuntu-ie their wiki page and who their team contact is
<czajkowski> I can either mail them asking for information or join their channel
<czajkowski> any more questions ?
<ClassBot> brousch asked: Our LoCo events are much larger than typical LUG meetings in the area. How can I help the LUGs without making it seem like Ubuntu is trying to take over the LUG?
<czajkowski> brousch: yup I see that happens a lot.
<czajkowski> what I'd suggest is inviting them to an event
<czajkowski> perhaps if you hold an Ubuntu hour
<czajkowski> extend an invitation to them
<czajkowski> also ask them if they are having an event can you join
<czajkowski> it works both ways
<czajkowski> also on the LD you can see where global events are located http://loco.ubuntu.com/events/global/326/detail/
<czajkowski> which is great if you are travelling and want to stop by and visit
<czajkowski> Any more thoughts/questions ?
<ClassBot> brousch asked: How can a LoCo get more shwag from Canonical?
<czajkowski> well  APPROVED Teams will now get a once off gift from CAnonical
<czajkowski> a banner and a table cloth with Ubuntu branding on them
<czajkowski> there are also conference packs for teams and items in them vary if you are an approved or unapproved teams
<czajkowski> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuAtConferences
<czajkowski> I'd also suggest hanging out in #ubuntu-locoteams  it's a useful channel
<czajkowski> and a great way to meet other Ubuntu members from teams
<czajkowski> bounce ideas off one another and see what teams are doing
<czajkowski> Any other comments?
<czajkowski> I know a lot of teams are working really hard with their activites
<czajkowski> and doing a great job
<czajkowski> but we're here to help and ask for advice, so if you've not run an event before just ask
<czajkowski> If there are no other comments or questions I guess we can finish up ?
<czajkowski> ok thanks folks
<czajkowski> hope this has helped
<ClassBot> X-Man89 asked: Is there any guides on running Ubuntu Hour events?
<czajkowski> xuacu: wiki.ubuntu.com/Hour
<czajkowski> not really
<czajkowski> just pick a venue
<czajkowski> date
<czajkowski> time
<czajkowski> stick to it!
<czajkowski> and meet up and chat
<czajkowski> what we've found has worked is picking a topic sometimes and discussing it
<czajkowski> so in the past I've shown the LD and asked folks to try it and then they submitted bugs :) so it worked
<ClassBot> BigWhale asked: Sorry, I just arrived and if this was already answered I apologize. Recently I started to coordinate the effort for Slovenian LoCo. I noticed that somebody was already doing that before me and their request was rejected at that point. Is there anyone who could help with some basic guidelines about what else it is to be done before we apply for another review. I'd hate to be rejected and would need to wait for two more years
<czajkowski> BigWhale: well that sounds like 2 people are doing a smilar job
<czajkowski> what I'd suggest is talking to them and seeing how far their efforts have gotten them and possibly team up and help
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<czajkowski> and if you have any issues come talk to myself and the others itnet7 popey leogg and paultag on irc
<czajkowski> BigWhale: does that help ?
<czajkowski> BigWhale: any issues come talk to us and we'll talk and help.
<czajkowski> documenting your work for approval helps grately!
<czajkowski> keeping a copy of blog post
<czajkowski> or links to media should be included in your application
<czajkowski> Ok that's me done for today, I'm back again tomorrow if you want to know how to get more involved in the Ubuntu community from being a user :)
<czajkowski> Thanks folks
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<Riddell> ** Kubuntu talk in 5 minutes
<czajkowski> hmmm
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Kubuntu is Awesome - Instructors: Riddell
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2010/10/11/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<Riddell> Good afternoon all
<Riddell> as you know, Ubuntu makes a bunch of distro variants
<Riddell> Kubuntu is the most awesomest one
<Riddell> it's an Ubuntu distribution based heavily on KDE Software
<Riddell> KDE is a community making the original and best free desktop software as I expect you know
<Riddell> on the commercially led<->community sliding scale Kubuntu is much more towards community than e.g. Ubuntu Desktop is
<Riddell> but we're a supported project of Canonical (feel free to pay us money to support you!)
<Riddell> many years ago KDE was born as a desktop to take over the world
<Riddell> a few years ago the desktop was complete but it hadn't taken over the world
<Riddell> we KDE realised it wasn't enough to be as good as the competition, you had to be better
<Riddell> so much re-writing was done and KDE 4 was born
<Riddell> this has been a painful process, since when you rewrite things, they get a better foundation but can lose features for users
<Riddell> the good news is that 4.0 was released three years ago!
<Riddell> all the little niggles and missing features compared to KDE 3 have gone
<Riddell> so we have a very solid and innovative desktop to make a distro with
<Riddell> that distro is Kubuntu
<Riddell> uLinux: yes, the Kubuntu session is on
<Riddell> 10.10 was released yesterday
<Riddell> anyone tried it yet?
<Riddell> (chat in #ubuntu-classroom-chat incase you hadn't got that)
<Riddell> nobody used it yet!  now's the perfect time to try!
<Riddell> 17:07 < uLinux> QUESTION: is kubuntu less bloated then Ubuntu?
<Riddell> it's a full featured desktop, we try not to add unnecessary dependencies but then I expect so do Ubuntu Desktop people
<Riddell> it all manages to fit on a single CD though, which beats any proprietary OS you can think of
<Riddell> 17:07 < ulysses> Riddell: I upgraded but it freezes with KDE 4.5.1 and 4.5.2 also:(
<Riddell> that's a shame, computers can be annoying like that
<Riddell> do use #kubuntu or mailing lists or forums for support to try to debug that
<Riddell> 17:08 < luis_lopez> QUESTION: is multitouch supported under Kubuntu?
<Riddell> multitouch isn't supported currently, we'll be discussing that at the ubuntu summit in a couple of weeks, feel free to give me hardware I can test it on :)
<Riddell> 17:09 < sebsebseb> QUESTION:  Why is Kubuntu so close to vanilla KDE, instead of customising it a bit more like other distros tend to do, themewise and such?
<Riddell> because KDE rocks!
<Riddell> we like to work with KDE rather than change what they offer, that way everyone wins
<Riddell> also other distros customise the theme so you can recognise Kubuntu nicely because we're the one that doesn't :)
<Riddell> KDE artwork is great, I don't see any reason to change it
<Riddell> 17:10 < Guest36400> So whats the difference between Ubuntu+KDE and Kubuntu?
<Riddell> well nothing, Kubuntu is the KDE variant from Ubuntu
<Riddell> if you have Ubuntu Desktop installed you can get Kubuntu with just installing the kubuntu-desktop package
<Riddell> 17:11 < shauno> (question for here) are all these sessions direct q&a? or do we let them do their bit & wait until questions are invited?
<Riddell> shauno: I have some notes to talk from, but it's usually more interesting with questions
<Riddell> so feel free to ask
<Riddell> 17:09 < ls960> QUESTION: will fix intel drivers 915, 945 and so on?
<Riddell> that's up to Intel really I'm afraid
<Riddell> KWin uses parts of openGL that are not well supported by all X drivers unfortunately
<Riddell> and to make things worse, some drivers claim to suppose those features when they don't
<Riddell> this isn't new parts of openGL, it's features that have been working fine on other OSs for years
<Riddell> but I know KDE developers will be working with X developers to make sure those problems get fixed
<Riddell> 17:13 < crunch2> Question: why does kubuntu seem a "bit" slower then ubuntu? How can we speed up kubuntu? thks
<Riddell> that's a tricky question to answer, it's very subjective and usually depends on the hardware you have
<Riddell> turning off compositing may help, or it may not
<Riddell> make sure nepomuk "Desktop Search" is turned off, that can use lots of resources
<Riddell> 17:13 < ulysses> QUESTION: Do you plan using the upstream KDE translations instead of importing them to Launchpad, and then building the language packs, and updating more  frequently the translations?
<Riddell> we do use upstream translations of course
<Riddell> but as you say they get imported and exported from launchpad
<Riddell> which can cause problems when the import/export scripts don't work
<Riddell> unfortunately upstream KDE translations aren't perfect either
<Riddell> they released the wrong translations for KDE PIM in this release
<Riddell> they also won't accept strings we add to our packages (there's about a dozen of them) so we need to do translatins ourselves
<Riddell> and Canonical has customers who need to translate Kubuntu all in one place without having to learn about svn exports and po files
<Riddell> so I don't expect it to change, although I agree it's not perfect
<Riddell> so new in 10.10...
<Riddell> the Plasma Netbook workspace has been promoted onto the main Kubuntu download
<Riddell> you now get either a netbook or a desktop workspace as best suited to your machine
<Riddell> (you can change it manually if you want)
<Riddell> this is part of the KDE strategy of making sure KDE Software can fit in on a spectrum of machines
<Riddell> from handheld to large desktops
<Riddell> along those lines we also have a new Kubuntu Mobile variant using the Plasma Mobile workspace
<Riddell> it's very much a technology preview for now
<Riddell> but I did see them making a phone call with it at Akademy
<Riddell> in Kubuntu 10.10 we also have an updated package manager, now application focused (like Software Centre or App Store)
<Riddell> ooh and a new web browser
<Riddell> Rekonq is based on Webkit and has an innovative user interface
<Riddell> global menu: a new freedesktop spec led by canonical has allowed for a menu bar which is in a panel rather than in the app frame
<Riddell> we use this in the netbook workspace now
<Riddell> the installer now lets you download MP3 support during the install
<Riddell> it also starts the install as soon as you set your partitions, so it's ready sooner
<Riddell> we use the new Ubuntu font by default
<Riddell> which I think looks lovely
<Riddell> and of course all the latest software versions, KDE Platform 4.5, Qt 4.7, Amarok 2.3.2...
<Riddell> 17:21 < luis_lopez> QUESTION: Riddell: Tell us something about Qt Quick awesomeness :)
<Riddell> Qt Quick is a new feature with Qt 4.7
<Riddell> it's a library which lets you write user interfaces in a language similar to CSS stylesheets
<Riddell> then write the transitions you want to happen in that UI when actions happen
<Riddell> it makes writing desktop apps similar to how I believe Adobe Flash apps are written
<Riddell> it allows for designers to gets the results they want sooner and easier
<Riddell> we did a tutorial on it a few months ago as part of Kubuntu Tutorials Day
<Riddell> Kubuntu developers apachelogger has been playing with writing a video playing in Qt Quick, so we may see some fancy new app in Natty
<Riddell> 17:22 < crunch2> Question: why doesnt kubuntu receives all the goodies ubuntu is developing, such as full ubuntu one integration? thks
<Riddell> "Ubuntu" is a project that makes distributions such as Ubuntu Desktop or Kubuntu, but there's very little software written by Ubuntu
<Riddell> Ubuntu One is written by Canonical
<Riddell> and they've done their sums and reconned it's not economically sensible to write Kubuntu frontends to Ubuntu One
<Riddell> which is a shame, but that's business for you
<Riddell> we did have a project to write them which got quite far but the Ubuntu One team in Canonical hasn't learnt how to work with the community very well yet
<Riddell> so they made changes that stopped our bits from working
<Riddell> we'll be talking to them about that at the Ubuntu summit
<Riddell> 17:21 < Chell> Question: In the past Kubuntu was critiqued of not having as much spit & polish as Ubuntu. Did the Kubuntu team do anything about that for 10.10?
<Riddell> we took the more polished KDE software and made it all work for you :)
<Riddell> 17:26 < MyPlanetWars> QUESTION: is it possible to have both KDE and GNOME together? if yes, is it stable and which files are shared? (e.g. home directory?)
<Riddell> yes very much
<Riddell> there's no reason to limit yourself if you need a feature from an app
<Riddell> all your files are shared
<Riddell> 17:21 < boulabiar> Question: How much developers are working on KDE/Kubuntu compared to Gnome/ubuntu inside Canonical
<Riddell> I think a better question is how many people in total work on Kubuntu compared to Ubuntu Desktop
<Riddell> I don't know the answer to that
<Riddell> but I do know the Kubuntu team is busy and friendly and you should come and join us
<Riddell> (I'm avoiding the original question because I don't count how many gnome developers canonical has it's not something I spend much time looking at)
<Riddell> here at Kubuntu we pride ourselves on being friendly
<Riddell> friendly software, friendly people
<Riddell> if we're ever not, do call us out on it!
<Riddell> so we should be friendly on support channels for users, on IRC, mailing lists, forums etc
<Riddell> and if you want to help out making Kubuntu better, we're always very friendly to that
<Riddell> yes we want you for Kubuntu contributors!
<Riddell> now is the start of the cycle so we have lots of things to do to get Natty going
<Riddell> lots of packages need updating and merging with Debian
<Riddell> lots of bugs need triaged (to find out if any stable release updates for 10.10 are needed for example)
<Riddell> lots of users need support with 10.10 of course
<Riddell> if you want to propose feature ideas for Natty we have UDS
<Riddell> the Ubuntu Developer Summit
<Riddell> which you can participate in remotely if you aren't in Florida
<Riddell> if you are a kubuntu contributor not only do you get international recognition by millions of users
<Riddell> you may well also get to come to the next Ubuntu Developer Summit
<Riddell> as I say we're having one in a couple of weeks in Florida
<Riddell> and some of the people coming were, like many of you, kubuntu users six months ago, but are now fully fledged contributors
<Riddell> ideas for natty are being collected at http://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/UDSNatty
<Riddell> mostly we do our kubuntu development in #kubuntu-devel
<Riddell> so if you're interested in helping out do join us there
<Riddell> any more questions?
<Riddell> or any I've missed?
<Riddell> seems not, thanks for listening and asking, let me know if you do have questions and if you want to help with Kubuntu we're waiting for you to join us
<Riddell> 17:42 < crunch2> Question: how tight is the cooperation with debian (kde maintainers)?
<Riddell> we share beers at events
<Riddell> we share patches
<Riddell> as with Ubuntu in general we get a lot more from Debian than we give back, but we try to make sure we give back when there are changes they'll be interested in
<Riddell> 17:44 < maco> Riddell: how do patches work between kubuntu and kde?
<Riddell> most of our patches come from KDE upstream
<Riddell> and most of the rest go to KDE upstream
<Riddell> shadeslayer got his first patch into KDE today, go shadeslayer!
<Riddell> we try to keep any long running patches to a minimum, it becomes unsustainable very quickly if we don't
<Riddell> 17:44 < MyPlanetWars> QUESTION: besides the look, is there any difference in kubuntu and ubuntu?
<Riddell> all the GUI programmes are different programmes
<Riddell> so it's like asking is there any difference between Windows and MacOS, they all let you browse files and look at websites but the details are all different
<Riddell> 17:45 < maco> qt and gtk are both LGPL
<Riddell> that's true and worth repeating since people seem to forget
<Riddell> the main non-technical difference between those two toolkits it Qt is actively developed by a large community and a commercial sponsor
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<Riddell> thanks again for listening, next up it's "How to contribute to Ubuntu" with devildante
<devildante> hi guys :)
<jcastro> wait until the time, don't start too early!
<devildante> okay
<jcastro> it's like ubuntu, strict time schedule! :)
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: How to contribute to Ubuntu - Instructors: devildante
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2010/10/11/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<devildante> hello everyone :)
<devildante> hope you had a nice maverick day yesterday :)
<devildante> Let's begin!
<devildante> you installed Ubuntu, and you're all loving it
<devildante> and now, you want to give back
<devildante> but you don't know where to start
<devildante> Don't worry! We'll guide you through contributing to your favorite project :)
<devildante> And you'll soon see that coding isn't the only way to contribute - in fact, even the tiniest of contributions can be a great help to the Ubuntu project and community
<devildante> there is a whole lot of contributions you can make
<devildante> for example, you can spread the word about Ubuntu
<devildante> There is a lot of people that don't know there is another OS apart from Windows
<devildante> So, for example, you can order CDs from Shipit (over at shipit.ubuntu.com), and them distribute them everywhere
<devildante> you can give a talk about Ubuntu in your school/place of work/etc...
<devildante> or you can convert your friends
<devildante> there are some simple "instructions" at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ConvertFriends
<ClassBot> cazo asked: So, to "get involved" isn't so easy like it appears... the interesting should be a kind of "sponsor" to get start... but I thing it not possible... is it?
<devildante> it depends
<devildante> For spreading the word like above, you don't need a sponsor IMO
<devildante> If you want to do bug triage (which we will discuss later), you have the option of having a mentor
<ClassBot> daker asked: present your self pls!
<devildante> well, okay :p
<devildante> my name is Mohamed Amine IL Idrissi, I'm 17 years old and I'm part of Ubuntu Bug Control
<devildante> I already contributed with code, and I hope to be someday a "high-class" Ubuntu dev :)
<devildante> That was the small presentation :p
<devildante> okay, let's get to the next topic
<devildante> which is donating! you can donate a  small, medium, or big amount of money to the Ubuntu community
<devildante> You can donate here: http://www.ubuntu.com/community/donations
<devildante> let's continue
<devildante> you can do translations! whether it's translating applications, or documentation, you're always welcome :)
<devildante> Translating Ubuntu applications, you can do it here: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+translations
<devildante> If you have any questions about translating, you can ask on the Ubuntu Translations mailing list here: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-translators
<devildante> any questions until now?
<devildante> okay, let's continue :)
<ClassBot> cazo asked: AbhiJit, back to get involved. I thing I should start getting involveved, doing the joining, but, after that, what premisses? ask to somebody? What directions?
<devildante> There is always someone you can ask questions to
<devildante> For translations, I mentioned the mailing list at https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-translators
<devildante> For other activities, we'll cover it later
<devildante> Let's continue, we're a little late, I think
<devildante> You can also help others with Ubuntu
<devildante> There is a lot of unanswered questions on the Ubuntu Users mailing list: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-users
<devildante> or the #ubuntu channel on IRC
<devildante> or the ubuntu forums at http://ubuntuforums.org
<devildante> or the launchpad support tracker at https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+tickets
<devildante> or the recently created Ubuntu Stack Exchange site at http://askubuntu.com
<devildante> I am confident you all have enough experience to answer at least some questions :)
<ClassBot> BigWhale asked: What do to when you can't reach members of a certain project. For example, a program that needs fixing, you create a patch and none of the developers answer your hails, calls, pleas to include or at least review your patch. Who is next in the chain of command? :)
<devildante> If for example you submit a patch to KDE and they don't respond, you can propose it for inclusion in (K)Ubuntu
<devildante> we don't usually do that, though. we want to stay in sync with the original projects as much as possible
<devildante> okay, let's continue
<devildante> You can write documentation
<devildante> for example, if your monitor isn't working properly and you found a workaround, you can write a community help page to help others that have the same problem
<devildante> to do that, read the DocumentationTeam wiki page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam
<devildante> it will surely guide you :)
<devildante> you can also ask on #ubuntu-doc
<ClassBot> drcooper asked: If I know gtk and wants to contribute, but is not familiar with the code or organization of gnome, where do you suggest I start ?
<devildante> Start by something you're interested in
<devildante> and contact the developers to help you, either directly or on their mailing list (the latter is preferable)
<ClassBot> daker asked: is there a specific format for writing a documentation? i mean Software documentation
<devildante> If it's for Ubuntu, there isn't a specific one, just follow the general wiki guidelines
<devildante> If it's on another project documentation/wiki, that depends, each one has its style
<devildante> any other questions?
<devildante> okay, let's continue :)
<ClassBot> Chell asked: Can you tell a bit about the Karma system. Why is it important?
<devildante> It's not *that* important, it just measures your contributions
<devildante> It also decays over time, so to let newcomers have a chance against veterans
<devildante> Let's continue
<devildante> You can create artwork for Ubuntu
<devildante> I don't know much on the subject, I'll just let you visit those two links: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork
<devildante> And the mailing list:  https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
<devildante> You can also see the currently approved projects at https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-art/+specs and start there
<devildante> Next, we have bug triaging
<devildante> There is a lot of bugs filed in Launchpad, and the list is growing steadily over time
<devildante> so there is a group of bug triagers that examines these bugs, verify if they are valid, send them to the original projects, etc...
<devildante> This group is called the Ubuntu Bug Squad team, more infos at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugSquad
<devildante> To see how to help with bugs, see: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingWithBugs
<devildante> You can also ask for a mentor to guide you through triaging bugs, you can see how to apply here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugSquad/Mentors
<devildante> You can also test your systems, more info at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing
<devildante> (I'll speed up a little)
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<ClassBot> xuacu asked: how can we, non technical users, help with bugs?
<devildante> A common misconception is that bug triaging is essentially bug fixing
<devildante> it is not
<devildante> you just verify the bug applies to you, ask for more information relevant to the bug, send it upstream, etc... all things to make the bug ready for the developer to fix
<devildante> Let's continue
<devildante> If you have an idea that can improve Ubuntu, you can propose it to the Ubuntu developers
<devildante> all this is happening at http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/
<devildante> The final way to contribute is, of course, programming!
<devildante> I won't talk much about it, here's a link for the avid readers: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<devildante> There is also a session specially for Ubuntu Developement, by Bilal Akhtar at Wednesday 15:00 UTC
<devildante> Also, for those who want to help with translating, there is David Planella's session, tomorrow at 14:00 UTC
<ClassBot> Chell asked: what skill level is required to help triage bugs? What happens you one screws up?
<devildante> already answered, but we'll answer it again for logs :p
<devildante> You don't need a high skill level to triage bugs
<devildante> If you're not sure of something, you can always ask fellow triagers on #ubuntu-bugs
<devildante> any other question? (quick, quick!)
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2010/10/11/%23ubuntu-classroom.html
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat ||
<jadder_> oscarmbp
<oscarmbp> ?
<jadder_> you have to speak in english here
<oscarmbp> ok np
<jadder_> go to panas, again
<MichealH> How do I arrange a class in here?
<nhandler> MichealH: /join #ubuntu-classroom-backstage and we can help you with that
<oscarmbp> MichealH: /join #ubuntu-classroom-backstage
#ubuntu-classroom 2010-10-12
<sujiths80> hi
<sujiths80> The sound icon is not appearing in startup application...can anybody tell how can I change the settings
<Kottravai> Hello everyone
<yu2> greetings to every one
<sudhi> any one there ?
<latenite> Hi folks, anyone in here who can help me setup bind? I got it running but it s not working right.
<sebsebseb> Hi
<bilalakhtar> hi sebsebseb
<sebsebseb> bilalakhtar: hi
<bilalakhtar> sebsebseb: Attending the UOW?
<drcooper> bilalakhtar is conducting a session sebsebseb
<bilalakhtar> drcooper: well, my session is tomorrow
<bilalakhtar> was just asking sebsebseb
<drcooper> bilalakhtar: ok..
<drcooper> bilalakhtar: back from school?
<bilalakhtar> drcooper: just now :) BTW, how do you know I attend school?
<drcooper> bilalakhtar: all know u r 14
<sebsebseb> bilalakhtar: yep
<bilalakhtar> oh!
<sebsebseb> bilalakhtar: attending UOW back later
<drcooper> bilalakhtar: and im an Indian too..u are kindof getting famous
<bilalakhtar> drcooper: good to know about you
<drcooper> bilalakhtar: checked out cricket score ?:D
<persia> So, this is neither a help channel nor a chat channel.
<bilalakhtar> drcooper: yes, but I watch commonwealth games more nowadays :) This talk is getting offtopic, it would be better to move it to #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<bilalakhtar> or even better, to #ubuntu-offtopic
<persia> And the bind question belongs in #ubuntu or #ubuntu-server
<latenite> persia, ok thanks i l go to u-server
<genupulas> hello my name is raja ..i am new to ubuntu .may i join here to listen ....
<SergioMeneses> genupulas, join #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<jcastro> woo!
<nigelb> Hello folks!
<bilalakhtar> nigelb: Your session?
<nigelb> Welcome to Day 2 of the Ubuntu Open Week
<nigelb> I hope you all had fun yesterday
<nigelb> If you missed yesterday's sessions, you can find the logs here: http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2010/10/11/%23ubuntu-classroom.html#t15:01
<nigelb> We have another awesome set of sesions today about Translations, Finding your place in the community, Inkscape, and Qimo 4 kids!
<nigelb> To know the full schedule, take a look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
<nigelb> Ok, we have a minute or so to go, so who's here and where are you from?
<nigelb> (respond in -chat)
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Get started translating Ubuntu - Instructors: dpm
<jcastro> (... having some problems with a missing person stand by!)
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2010/10/12/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<andrejz> hello!
<jcastro> Ok, andrejz is going to step in and help us out
<andrejz> my name is andrejz and i am a slovenain launchpad group translation coordinator
<jcastro> we kind of put him on the spot so he's volunteered to take over, thanks andrejz!
<andrejz> i have been just told dpm is not here so i haven't really prepared
<andrejz> so if things seem a bit strange, just ask me and i will try to answer them as best as i can
<andrejz> QUESTION: can you explain how a new contributor finds out what and how to translate Ubuntu?
<andrejz> Ubuntu (and many other projects) are being translated through a web interface found on www.launchpad.net
<andrejz> So the first thing you need to do is get an account there
<andrejz> Then it's good to get in contact with your translation team - a list can be found here
<andrejz> https://translations.launchpad.net/+groups/ubuntu-translators
<andrejz> Different groups have different workflows (do things in a different way) according to the number of active members and they find suits them best
<andrejz> So i guess it's best to ask the team leader where is the best area to contribute
<andrejz> QUESTION: Do different translation teams work in different ways? Are there different workflows and "rules"?
<andrejz> Yes they do
<TLE> andrejz: just let me know when you are ready for new questions
<andrejz> ok
<andrejz> Maybe the people who asked them can say whether they were happy with the reply
<andrejz> So back to the question..
<andrejz> for example some teams only translate the strings, while others thorouglhy review them to ensure better quality. Of course this depends on how strong the team is
<andrejz> Additionally a lot of translations get imported from upstream (for ubuntu two most important are gnome and debian)
<andrejz> in some languages translation groups in upstream exist, in others they don't
<andrejz> this can affect how the teams are going to cope with the workload. That's why it's best to get in contact with  the team leader who is probably aware of what needs the most attention
<andrejz> next question please
<TLE> bilalakhtar> QUESTION: Translation strings in Ubuntu keep changing very frequently early in the cycle. Hence, would you recommend new translators to work only after UI Freeze?
<andrejz> That's a double edged sword. My opinion it's good to translate even before UI freeze
<andrejz> the level of changes depends on the packages
<TLE> You mind if I elaborate
<andrejz> for example if we take evolution - it's a really stable program, so one can translate it and be certain only a few strings will change on the other hand unity has been developed during this cycle, so strings changed a lot
<andrejz> so my advice is: do translate, but the projects for which the strings seem more "stable". Again translator coordinator should have a good grasp of which projects should be translated
<andrejz> TLE, please elaborate
<TLE> It can also depend a lot on the resources of your team
<TLE> To translate early you accept that some of your work may be lost because the strings change
<TLE> but you also help with development by spotting errors in the strings, at least if you report them as bugs
<TLE> this is very helpful for developers
<TLE> but if you are a very small team you may not have reources to spend on that
<TLE> Next question
<TLE> dholbach> QUESTION: What is upstream? How can one work together with upstream?
<andrejz> Upstream are the projects from which ubuntu is built
<andrejz> There are a lot of them, but the most important are Gnome, KDE and Debian
<andrejz> Some of these projects (including the ones i mentioned below) also have their translation projects
<andrejz> so one can translate packages within Gnome, KDE, Debian, etc ..
<andrejz> Now again, it depends from team to team
<andrejz> For big languages (like spanish for example) there is a gnome translation team, debian translation team, etc..
<andrejz> for some smaller there is no upstream translation team
<andrejz> you should visit sites of these projects to check whether they exist
<andrejz> translations are automatically imported into launchpad, after the release of upstream packages
<andrejz> so for example, translation will be imported in gnome the next time when gnome 2.32.1 is released
<andrejz> that's why there is usually some lag between the time when translations are translated in upstream and until they appear in launchpad
<andrejz> translations are currently not exported out of launchpad back to upstream
<andrejz> so by working together with upstream i am primarily referring to : making sure that you don't translated the same packages (duplication of work)
<andrejz> if you fix a bug in launchpad send notify the upstream, so they can fix it as well
<andrejz> it's also good if you maintain some vocabulary standards, etc..
<andrejz> again it depends on the specific teams (whether they exist and how strong in manpower they are)
<andrejz> next question
<TLE> Kottravai> QUESTION: Are there any specific rules to follow while translating?
<andrejz> You mean technical or grammar rules ?
<TLE> andrejz: lets take the next one
<andrejz> Again it depends from team to team. For example in some teams it's required one enters the name of the package they intend to translate on a wiki
<andrejz> ok, sure TLE
<TLE> while he elaborate
<TLE> genupulas> QUESTION: what is meant by UI freeze
<TLE> maybe expand to stings freeze as well
<andrejz> UI freeze means USer interface freeze. This means UI won't change anymore, so the translation strings are not going to change anymore. So UI freeze= string freeze
<andrejz> This in theory means that the strings, which you translate won't be changed (and hence lost) before release of next ubuntu version
<andrejz> usually this is about 1 month before the final release, actual date can be found in the release schedule
<andrejz> But there can always be some string freeze exceptions if there is a good reasons and translators agree with it
<andrejz> so it's good to be on ubuntu-translators mailing list in order to stay up to date with last minute strings changes
<andrejz> next question please
<TLE> we'll go back to Kottravai question
<TLE> Kottravai> I'm asking about any rules that are unique to ubuntu - terminology you should not use, etc.
<andrejz> No, there is no such thing. Of course different languages have different rules about foreign words, comas, voacabulary, etc. Some teams are more strict and others more loose. But there is nothing unique to ubuntu
<andrejz> next question
<TLE> dholbach> QUESTION: Do you know of LoCo teams that come together locally to translate together? This way they could also show new contributors  how to do it.
<andrejz> well, we do :)
<andrejz> we had this translations evenings this cycle, where people gathered (online) and translated /reviewed strings together. We really did a lot of work, and it's much easier to get motivated once you see others are motivated as well
<andrejz> I believe it's better if events for new contributors are seperate, because otherwise they suddenly appear in translation frenzy and they might not be able to get their questions answered as detailed as they would like
<andrejz> we also did that but earlier in this cycle (in august). In total we managed to get 3 regular new contributors, which is significant for a team of our size
<andrejz> I am sure some of the other teams do similar things as well
<andrejz> next question
<TLE> QUESTION: How do I find a translating team for my language?
<andrejz> https://translations.launchpad.net/+groups/ubuntu-translators
<andrejz> next question
<TLE> QUESTION: Are translations re-done every cycle? If not completely, how much % of it can be re-used?
<andrejz> If the strings remain the same, then no additional work needs to be done
<andrejz> But a number of strings changes during a release cycle, either to improve their clarity or strings get added, because the program gets more functions.
<andrejz> these need to be translated
<andrejz> with the new message translation sharing it is now possible to translate a string in 10.10 and the string is then automatically translated in all previous supported ubuntu versions (if the string exist there)
<andrejz> so even if you are translating 10.10 you are still helping out with 10.04
<andrejz> next and final question please, because i need to go (i jumped in at the last moment, so i couldn't allocate the time, sorry)
<TLE> I can share a few approximate numbers
<TLE> before the next question
<andrejz> ok
<TLE> The Gnome desktop which is a group of modules that are quite central to Ubuntu
<TLE> it consist of roughly 40000-45000 string
<TLE> and of those ~10 - 15% have to be translated or updated in each 6 month cycle
<TLE> very roughly
<TLE>  ;)
<TLE> dholbach> QUESTION: What is the most difficult thing for a new translator? What should new translators be particular careful about?
<andrejz> In my experience it's the language. because we usually talk differently than we translate, so one needs to get accustomed to that.
<andrejz> also most translators are "power users" so they are quite familiar with english vocabulary and hence they tend to use englishisms a lot
<andrejz> but if you are active and have a good mentor (someone who reviews your strings and gives you advice) you can improve to a quality translator in a month or so it's not that hard. one just needs to be persistent
<andrejz> i need to leave, hope i answered your questions ok
<TLE> thank you very much andrejz
<TLE> I will answer the last question on my list
<andrejz> if you have any additional questions you can always post on ubuntu-translators mailing list or on IRC
<andrejz> regards
<TLE> and then talk a little but quality
<TLE> andrejz: have fun
<TLE> Kottravai> QUESTION:What exactly are "Big" languages?
<TLE> Big languages are the ones spoken by lots of people
<TLE> or rather langueges used to a large extend by computer userss
<TLE> so something like spanish, english, chinese and so on
<TLE> dholbach> QUESTION: Are there strings that are harder to translate than others? What about things like plurals or strings that include some kind  of "code"? How can I test that I didn't break stuff when I translated?
<TLE> Yes there are definitely strings that are harder than others
<TLE> the first class of hard strings are single word ones e.g. "Load"
<TLE> because english is quite ambigous, there is no way to know whether it refers to the noun or the verb
<TLE> here you have to hope that the developers though of it and included a string that explains it
<TLE> and if not you need to make a bugreport, because if you have that problem, then most likely other translators will to
<TLE> you languaes team can help you determine the meaning or report a bug
<TLE> second is something like strings with markup
<TLE> "<b>Hallo world</b>"
<TLE> we are seing fewer and fewer if such string, but for these it is important to not change the markup, i.e. the stuff between < .. >
<TLE> lastly there is something like plural strings
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<TLE> e.g. if you want a string that says "You have ??? unsaved changes"
<TLE> and you want ??? to be any number
<TLE> or I should say if developers want ;)
<TLE> then they will so called plural strings, they have one version for each plural state in english and you then need to make one translation for each plural state in your language
<TLE> but this a quite an advanced topic and is much easier to grasp with an example, so ask you team or other translators when you run into it
<TLE> I don't see any more questions, so lastly I will mention just a few quick words about quality
<TLE> Strings that we translate are often very visible
<TLE> therefore it is desireable to aim for as high quality in out translations as possible
<TLE> However quality are a few different things
<TLE> The obvious ones are grammar and spelling
<TLE> take whatever help you can get and need to get it right, as many other people will see the strings you write
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<TLE> this is not meant to discourage anyone, you do not need to be a grammar superhero, just as throrough as you can be
<TLE> another thing concerning quality is the quality of the stuff that you are writing in your own language
<TLE> in my case Danish
<TLE> When you are transating you have the english string riiiiight next to the one you are writing
<TLE> which makes it very easy to fall accidentally adopt the english sentence structure
<TLE> which might not be the most elegant in your own language
<TLE> so try and let go of the actual english sentence, focus on its contents and the formulate it in your own language
<TLE> Well I could talk about translaion quality all day
<TLE> but I think that was the last we had time for
<TLE> if you have any more questions please drop by #ubuntu-translators and ask them there
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: How to go from user to contributor: Finding your place in the Ubunt - Instructors: Czajkowski
<czajkowski> Aloha me again :) Many moons ago I started to use Ubuntu and that was me, an Ubuntu user and I was happy.  But I wanted to do more, when I had an issue what did I do or who could I poke/prod and ask for help.  I joined IRC and low and behold a whole new world was available to me.
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2010/10/12/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<czajkowski> I could log bugs, report issues, translate, volunteer and lots lots more. If I can do it anyone and everyone can and I thought in todays session I'd point people in the right direction. As sometimes you just need a push in the right direction in order to help out.
<czajkowski> Firstly, EVERYONE is welcome to help and contribute back, you do not have to a whiz in an area but rather be willing to learn and ask questions.  There is no such thing as a daft or stupid or n00b, we all have to start somewhere and the Ubuntu community is one of the most welcoming communities around.
<czajkowski> Many peope start off using Ubuntu and want to do more
<czajkowski> so I'm hoping in this session to tell you about some areas you may be interested in getting involved in
<czajkowski> So now you want to help, where do you go ? There are lots of teams out there and I'm going to highlight some of the ones that are good ways to get involved and introduced to the Ubuntu community!
<czajkowski> Accessibility:
<czajkowski> Works to improve the accessibility support on the Ubuntu platform and the software that runs on it.  f you have further questions or suggestion you can reach us via IRC (#ubuntu-accessibility), our mailing list https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-accessibility  The team is looking for more help with documentation, and testing, so if you want to get on board jump in and give a hand!
<czajkowski> So you may not have heard of some of the teams
<czajkowski> or not know they are looking for help
<czajkowski> many idle on IRC and welcome people dropping by and asking questions and can point you in the right direction
<czajkowski> Advocacy:
<czajkowski> People like me :) and many of the open week presenters do this
<czajkowski> There are lots of people who help out and promote Ubuntu and turn up for weeks like this one and are run by people who want to help and showcase Ubuntu and Free and open source software this is what advocacy is all about.
<czajkowski> How can you get others on board without scaring them away.
<czajkowski> the thing you have to remembers is not to force open source or Ubuntu on anyone, just talk ro explain to them what its about and let them decide
<czajkowski> it;s all about choice.
<czajkowski> Why not get involved in your loco team http://loco.ubuntu.com/teams/  Help organise events and take part in them by giving demos or short talks ? There is always a way to contribute, by even attending events that other groups like local lugs or user groups are running and talking or showing your laptop working using Ubuntu it spreads the word
<czajkowski> so many people first get involved and get on irc via their loco team
<czajkowski> you can also volunteer there also
<czajkowski> help run  meetings
<czajkowski> update wiki websites
<czajkowski> mailing lists
<ClassBot> anneboleyn asked: What's a good option for someone who doesn't have much time to spare?
<czajkowski> anneboleyn: great question
<czajkowski> so starting off small and in your team is a great way
<czajkowski> possibly taking a part of a wiki area and seeing if it needs to be updated in your team
<czajkowski> always ask for help
<czajkowski> or bug triaging which I'll get onto
<czajkowski> Art/ Design:
<czajkowski> Lots of choice here depending on your choice
<czajkowski> The Art Community Team https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork <- For contributing to the art in Ubuntu/Kubuntu/Xubuntu etc
<czajkowski> The Ayatana Design Community   https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Ayatana <- For user experence, design and the science of user interactivity
<czajkowski> The "I use Ubuntu and make Art" community  http://ubuntu-artists.deviantart.com/
<czajkowski> and finally
<czajkowski> many many teams do some amazing artworkd
<czajkowski> or create some funky templates for their teams
<czajkowski> they add them to a website so we can all use them which is great!
<czajkowski> if you have stuff for your team done and want to add it so other teams can benefit from it http://spreadubuntu.neomenlo.org/ <- For contributing to LoCo media (posters etc)
<ClassBot> Ethnopunk asked: Is there a way to contribute to making Ubuntu desktop a more productive user experience?
<czajkowski> Ethnopunk: yes you can join the Ayatana mailing list and join the discssions there
<czajkowski> or join #ubuntu-desktop and talk to the developers
<czajkowski> Cloud:
<czajkowski> cloud is the new thing everyone wants to get involved in
<czajkowski> but many don't know where to turn to
<czajkowski> Anyone interested in contributing to ubuntu cloud or server  then why not have a chat with Ahmed Kamal  / Kim0 on IRC   https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AhmedKamal  and he will point you in the right direction and is currently looking for feedback for the next cycle on the cloud and community.
<czajkowski> Documentation:
<czajkowski> The Doc team is a group of community volunteers responsible for writing, editing, and updating the system documentation that ships with the Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Xubuntu, and Edubuntu desktop operating systems. New versions of these guides are available with each new release of Ubuntu
<czajkowski> If you want to learn about documentation or get more experience in it or already do it why not help the documentation team.  It's a great way to learn and also there is a mentoring program so if you're shy and want to make sure you don't mess things up too badly, there is a safety net with people there to help you. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam or join #ubuntu-doc
<czajkowski> again if you've no experience do not be put off
<czajkowski> we all have to learn somewhere
<czajkowski> and the best thing is to jump in and just ask
<czajkowski> you won't be told off and you get to learn new applications which will benefit you possibly career wise
<czajkowski> LoCo Directory:
<czajkowski> if anyone hasn't guessed by now I rather love the LD :)
<czajkowski> We have a fantastic resource that is the LoCo Directory (LD) and it's being worked on by an amazing group of folks in the community, it's a community driven proect which started off as a blueprint at UDS and has come a long long long way!
<czajkowski> BUT! we do know there are some kinks in it, if someone mentions UTC timezones once more to me....... :) We are looking for developers/patches translations ideas on how to help it improve or just to help with the current load of work! http://loco.ubuntu.com/  ask or join in #ubuntu-locoteams
<czajkowski> they are currently looking for people to help with CSS and to help work on the bugs that are there at presenr
<czajkowski> *present
<czajkowski> they are also looking to translate it https://translations.launchpad.net/loco-directory
<czajkowski> https://bugs.launchpad.net/loco-directory/+bugs  why not try some of these and ask the developers how to get working on them in #ubuntu-locoteams
<czajkowski> Ubuntu Weekly News Letter:
<czajkowski> also known as UWN https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter is always looking for more reviewers and writers, why not get on board and help out and learn more about the community. Or pop into #ubuntu-news and ask where you can help
<czajkowski> So if you like to write or are good at interviewing people
<czajkowski> or even better still reading and summerising work then join here :)
<czajkowski> Testing:
<czajkowski> Ubuntu Testing Team seeks to improve Ubuntu through structured and exploratory testing of packages and ISO images. We aim to detect as many bugs and issues as possible before CDs are released to the general public.  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing
<czajkowski> You can join their mailing list https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-qa  or ask in #ubuntu-testing
<czajkowski> There are lots of areas to chose from so don't be shy and thinking you can't test! Everyone tests in some manner or another when you do an upgrade or run an unstable release and you enconter an issue, now what do you do? DO you hope it goes away or someone else reports the bug! Why not learn more
<czajkowski> lots of areas to chose from depending on your interest
<czajkowski> Testing Team Activities
<czajkowski> ISO Testing
<czajkowski> Daily Smoke Testing
<czajkowski> Stable Release Update (SRU) Testing
<czajkowski> Feature Testing
<czajkowski> General Testing
<czajkowski> Application Testing
<czajkowski> Automated Testing
<czajkowski> Laptop Testing
<czajkowski> Bugs
<czajkowski> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Activities
<czajkowski> There are also lots of bugs there sittting waiting there feeling rather unloved as they've been reported and not been triaged or marked as valid or verified why not
<ClassBot> hermes asked: How does one start, if he/she wants to start contribution at the Kernel Level
<czajkowski> hermes: you can ask in #ubuntu-kernel or https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kernel/BugTriage  learn about how to traige bugs
<ClassBot> anneboleyn asked: If I use my computer for testing, is there a chance that other apps will be damaged by bugs?
<czajkowski> anneboleyn: heh
<czajkowski> I won't say damage but if you are running unstable releases then you may find things not working the way you'd expect them to do so
<czajkowski> Test Drive an Ubuntu ISO in a Virtual Machine
<czajkowski> https://launchpad.net/testdrive
<czajkowski> very useful tool
<czajkowski> Translations:
<czajkowski> A lot of teams provide language support and also help with the large job of translations as we do appreciate not everyone speaks English and would like Ubuntu or what ever application they use to be in their native language.   There is a lot of help on their wiki page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Translations with regular meetings and it gives you lots of pointers on where to get started.
<czajkowski> Why not look them up on http://www.ubuntu.com/support/community/locallanguage  or join #ubuntu-translations  or asking dpm on irc for help
<czajkowski> Their mailing list https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-translators
<czajkowski> There is a way for everyone to contribute if you want to.  If you get stuck or don't know where to get involved ASK SOMEONE  you can ask in #ubuntu-locoteams and that's also a great place to hang out in IRC to meet other members from teams all over the world or ask in #ubuntu-community-team
<czajkowski> WE have a massive community who are pretty tolerant and will help you if you need help. So don't worry.
<czajkowski> Anyone have any questions ?
<ClassBot> doctormo asked: did you talk about packaging at all?
<czajkowski> Have a look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/GettingStarted  it links to
<czajkowski> all the questions you have in #ubuntu-motu or #ubuntu-packaging
<czajkowski> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Packaging/Training
<czajkowski> or come along to bilalakhtar session tomorow on packaging
<ClassBot> anneboleyn asked: Where can I learn more about advocacy?
<czajkowski> anneboleyn: there isn't one set place on the wiki to be honest
<czajkowski> you can ask in #ubuntu-locoteams
<czajkowski> or the marketing team
<czajkowski> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MarketingTeam
<czajkowski> or #ubuntu-community-team
<czajkowski> Anything else ?
<czajkowski> nope?
<ClassBot> doctormo asked: Is there a way to get involved with teaching or making classes?
<czajkowski> doctormo: thanks good questions
<czajkowski> you can get involved in both in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom
<czajkowski> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning
<czajkowski> both have people there to teach you
<czajkowski> but also if there is an area you are good at and want to share with others
<czajkowski> you can give a class in here
<ClassBot> pawelh asked: I have been trying to get in touch with my country's LoCo, but it seems to be inactive. How can I jump start it?
<czajkowski> pawelh what LoCo is this ?
<czajkowski> as I said teams are listed http://loco.ubuntu.com/teams/
<czajkowski> if you team is listed there it SHOULD have a team contact named and contact details
<czajkowski> if there is nobody there running it
<czajkowski> you can contact me and the loco council https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoCouncil and we can help
<czajkowski> well the Polish loco is an APPROVED team http://loco.ubuntu.com/teams/ubuntu-pl
<czajkowski> they have a mailing list listed ?
<czajkowski> so do try adn contact them and see what the story is
<ClassBot> anneboleyn asked: Can I help with the content/presentation for classes even if I'm not very techno savvy?( Was an Instructional designer for a while)
<czajkowski> anneboleyn: sure you can do a class on anything just contact the classroom team and they can help set up a session on it for you to run
<czajkowski> anneboleyn: I'd say contact the learning team and see what you can sort out and work on
<czajkowski> hope that helps
<czajkowski> ok well if there are no more questions we can call it a day but if folks ever get stuck and want to know where to get involved you can dm me here on irc or mail me czajkowski @ ubuntu . com
<czajkowski> Thanks for coming
<doctormo> Welcome to the Making Posters in Inkscape session, we've taken a bit of extra time because we need to do some prep work.
<doctormo> the first thing to do is to install inkscape, http://doctormo.org/install.pl?inkscape <- click there
<doctormo> One of the important parts of doing media work is organising yourself so you can find everything. Poster creation, like all publishing, is about bringing lots of existing elements together.
<doctormo> I'd like you to make a special folder to keep all your artworks in. Me I use ~/Graphics/
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: How to Make Posters using Inkscape - Instructors: doctormo
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2010/10/12/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<doctormo> I'm going to give you a library of existing elements, I've tried my hardest to document the licensing where it's original or commissioned work. I'd like you to download, extract and store in your graphics folder. I store mine in ~/Graphics/Media
<doctormo> http://divajutta.com/doctormo/art/Media.tar.gz
<doctormo> This is a my precious media archive which all LoCo people, art and marketing people should download.
<doctormo> Once you have extracted your archive, I'd like you to open inkscape and get comfortable, open up your media directory too.
<doctormo> http://divajutta.com/doctormo/art/inkscape-setup.png
<doctormo> This is my work environment for making published media like posters.
<doctormo> If you've got that all setup, then congratulations your ready for the class. I'll be printing this back out at 12:00 for everyone who has joined since and if all you who are ready can help those who are not in chat, that would be great.
<doctormo> Welcome again to the Making Posters in Inkscape session, you will need to do some prep work to get ready. For everyone who has joined us since the hour.
<doctormo> The first thing to do is to install inkscape, http://doctormo.org/install.pl?inkscape <- click there
<doctormo> One of the important parts of doing media work is organising yourself so you can find everything. Poster creation, like all publishing, is about bringing lots of existing elements together.
<doctormo> I'd like you to make a special folder to keep all your artworks in. Me, I use ~/Graphics/
<doctormo> I'm going to give you a library of existing elements, I've tried my hardest to document the licensing where it's original or commissioned work.
<doctormo> http://divajutta.com/doctormo/art/Media.tar.gz <- I'd like you to download, extract and store in your graphics folder. I store mine in ~/Graphics/Media
<doctormo> Once you have extracted your archive, I'd like you to open inkscape and get comfortable, open up your media directory too.
<doctormo> http://divajutta.com/doctormo/art/inkscape-setup.png 11:55 <- Just like this
<doctormo> This is my work environment for making published media like posters.	
<doctormo> If you've got that all setup, then congratulations your ready for the class.
<doctormo> I'll give you all another 3 minutes to do that, downloading the 7MB archive might take a second.
<doctormo> You can extract the archive by right clicking on it and selecting "Extract here"
<doctormo> You can have a look through the folders and see what's there, all fun stuff.
<doctormo> OK time to move on, don't worry if your still downloading, we'll be doing backgrounds first.
<doctormo> In your inkscape window, you'll have a canvas. It's important at this stage to get your canvas the right size and orentation.
<doctormo> File > Document Properties
<doctormo> In the Format selection, we're going to select Ledger/Tabloid which is two US Letter sheets stuck together. You can also use A3.
<doctormo> Where it says background, we're going to click on that and change the colour to pure white with no transparency.
<doctormo> Close that preferences window and go back tot he canvas.
<doctormo> Goto File > Save As and save your work, use the save button on the toolbar religiously.
<doctormo> Next we're going to make a square using the draw square tool
<doctormo> Make a square just less than the size of the canvas. Clicking on the fill/stroke properties we want to give this square a 4px black border and an orange fill, your choice on complexity.
<doctormo> http://divajutta.com/doctormo/art/Screenshot.png <- Like this
<doctormo> Next we're going to write a title on our poster, I like to have a collection of fonts as much as I like a collection of media.
<doctormo> I install ttf-aenigma to get access to a lot of interesting fonts and fill my ~/.fonts directory with downloaded ttf files.
<doctormo> http://doctormo.org/install.pl?ttf-aenigma
<doctormo> You may have to restart inkscape to see the new fonts.
<doctormo> Once you have some text, we'll want to drag over an Ubuntu logo, which should be in the Ubuntu media folder.
<doctormo> Like so: http://divajutta.com/doctormo/art/Screenshot-1.png
<doctormo> Drag over some other elements and place them in your poster, go with images that reflect the style you want to convay.
<doctormo> All these media elements are svg, so they're all editable and decomposable too.
<doctormo> At this point I'd like to download some new media to put in my directory
<doctormo> If it's something factual, like a flag, icon or brand I can use google to search wikimedia and type in "dell logo svg" for instance to get the svg.
<doctormo> Make sure that when downloading from wikimedia you download the svg and not the png.
<doctormo> For more creative works you can head over to http://openclipart.org and search the vast collections of works for svgs which fit your theme.
<doctormo> You can also take any of the works on spread Ubuntu, I limit myself to the svg works as they're the most flexible. http://spreadubuntu.neomenlo.org/
<doctormo> Spread Ubuntu is incidentally where you should upload your poster once it's done.
<doctormo> Once you've got all your downloadable elements together, next is the more creative part
<doctormo> designing
<doctormo> At this point we have to work a bit on Copyright. sorry guys!
<doctormo> I's important
<doctormo> For any pieces that you work on or that you download from openclipart (which are public domain) you don't need to worry at all.
<doctormo> For works you downloaded from elsewhere, you need to pay close attention to the license and abide by the rules.
<doctormo> A lot of the media I've given you is CC-BY-SA, so you're posters if they use those, will also need to be CC-BY-SA when you publish them.
<doctormo> You'll also need to credit the authors, so keep a record of them if you can.
<doctormo> Keeping a clean copyright workflow allows you a much better sense of security that your work isn't infringing on anything.
<doctormo> this is what I have so far -> http://divajutta.com/doctormo/art/Screenshot-2.png
<ClassBot> anneboleyn asked: What if I use some open-source stuff and some that are not free?
<doctormo> You have to license work from the original authors in ways that are compatible. It's not possible to legally combine non-free and share-alike works for instance.
<doctormo> If in doubt, make your own and license freely.
<ClassBot> anneboleyn asked: Where can I get help in doing that (getting my own license)?
<doctormo> You can get your own license from http://creativecommons.org/licenses/ you can of course always make your own, but that's legally unsure.
<doctormo> OK so now if you've got something worthwhile and you've saved it.
<doctormo> You'll need to know how to print it so it comes out like you expect.
<doctormo> Make sure at this point to save your poster.
<doctormo> You can save an SVG in inkscape as a PDF, but elements like blur and advanced filter effects are not accepted in pdf so they fail to translate.
<doctormo> You'll also notice that inkscape svg itself is slightly incompatibility with text fields appearing blank or as black squares in other svg viewers. (don't worry!) you can save your svg as a svg 1.1 compatible file for viewing in other programs.
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<doctormo> The best process I've found is to use File > Export Bitmap and export the full page (select the page tab) at 300dpi
<doctormo> You can then convert the png output into a pdf using imagemagik, gimp etc. This will be bigger than an svg -> pdf output, but it'll be much safer.
<doctormo> Please do ask your questions now.
<ClassBot> jothejo2 asked: doctormo can i add scripts in inkscape?
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<doctormo> jothejo2: Yes, you can make python, perl scripts as extentions. Do a web search for "python extentions" and read existing code.
<doctormo> This is where I have got to now, going mad with inkscape: http://divajutta.com/doctormo/art/Screenshot-3.png
<doctormo> How are you all doing?
<ClassBot> avagraphique asked: do you use a font manager and what font file types are compatible to use in linux/ubuntu (ex ttf, postscript, otf)?
<doctormo> ttf and otf are both compatible, I believe postscript and svg embedded fonts can be converted. I don't use a font manager, I make a symbolic link between the .fotns directory in my home folder and ~/Fonts which i just fill up witht he ttf files.
<doctormo> Thank you all for coming to my session and I hope you spread the word about how easy this all is.
<doctormo> Education is the primary activity we need to be doing! :-D
<doctormo> Bye!
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2010/10/12/%23ubuntu-classroom.html
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat ||
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Qimo 4 kids - Instructors: MichelleQ, mhall119
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2010/10/12/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<MichelleQ> Hi everyone.
<MichelleQ> I was asked to give this session on Qimo, for anyone who might be unfamiliar with it, or have questions, etc.
<MichelleQ> Qimo's an Ubuntu variant, for kids 3-10 years old.
<MichelleQ> Please, those of you around, feel free to ask questions; I'd much rather do this as a Q&A session.
<MichelleQ> Qimo's incorporated a basic set of educational games, and is designed to be extremely child friendly.
<MichelleQ> For those of you who might be interested in *why* Qimo came to be, we designed it for our son, who at the time was three, and barely verbal.  He is high-functioning Autistic, and struggled with multi-step processes.
<MichelleQ> So we made it as non-complicated as possible, putting the launcher on the bottom, with really large icons.
<MichelleQ> It's also designed to run on old hardware.
<MichelleQ> We, being mhall119 and myself, run a charity locally that recycles computers and gives them to at risk kids - and as such, we needed something that would run on very outdated hardware.
<ClassBot> anneboleyn asked: What are the packages to install?
<mhall119> starting in 10.04, we have some packages in the Universe repository
<mhall119> if you install qimo-session, that will install everything (including Xfce)
<mhall119> you can also install just qimo-games, which will only install the games
<mhall119> and qimo-wallpaper, that has the lovely backgrounds from Qimo
<MichelleQ> I suppose I should mention the names of the characters, Qimo & Illa.
<mhall119> Qimo is also available as a CD ISO
<ClassBot> bilalakhtar asked: How would you compare this to Edubuntu? In which ways is Qimo different from Edubuntu? In which ways would you recommend Qimo over it?
<mhall119> we're actually working with the Edubuntu team to include Qimo as a session option for Edubuntu
<mhall119> we'll be meeting with them at UDS-N to work out all the details of that
<MichelleQ> Edubuntu is more designed for a classroom use, with classroom management tools, etc.  Qimo's intended more for home useage.
<mhall119> so they really compliment eachother
<ClassBot> sebsebseb asked: Why is it called Qimo?
<MichelleQ> The name is derived from a song by Bob Dylan - "Quinn the Eskimo."
<MichelleQ> Our son is Quinn.
<MichelleQ> We sang it to him since his was itty bitty, and when we set out looking for a mascot, something related to him seemed to fit.
<ClassBot> mick_laptop asked: is this also a live cd like other ubuntu os cds
<MichelleQ> yes
<mhall119> yes, it's a live CD based on Xubuntu
<mhall119> and you can install from that CD too
<mhall119> you can get it from our website: http://www.qimo4kids.com
<ClassBot> anneboleyn asked: Can I directly download the .vdi file from somewhere, or is it available only as a torrent?
<mhall119> the .vdi was actually made for us by someone else
<mhall119> so whatever options they offer
<MichelleQ> Something to take note of:  Qimo is made to be stand alone, without internet access, and as such, has no filtering system.  If you want internet capabilities, you'll want to install something like Dan's Guardian before letting kids online.
<ClassBot> n3gbz asked: did Qimo spawn the recycling program or is that a separate venture?
<MichelleQ> they arose sort of hand-in-hand
<mhall119> originally I was customizing every install we did into a simplified interface and installing the games
<MichelleQ> mhall119 stripped down Ubuntu and handed it out to a handful of friends.  When the kids loved it, he proposed that we give old computers out more frequently.  We then launched both the charity, and then Qimo, within a relatively short period of time.
<mhall119> doing the customization by hand was time consuming
<mhall119> so initially I was just going to make a customized Ubuntu
<mhall119> but once we started down that road, we decided to keep going and make it into it's own thing
<MichelleQ> We decided that a customized Ubuntu just wouldn't do, so we came up with the notion of QImo.
<ClassBot> sebsebseb asked: Do you know about any schools that use Qimo?   If so how many and where?
<MichelleQ> Gosh, there's a bunch.
<MichelleQ> I know of a Romanian orphanage that uses it.  I know there are a couple of schools in South Africa that use it, and at least one in Central America.
<mhall119> we regularly hear from teachers and school administrators who find it and tell us that they're going to be using it
<mhall119> just last week we heard from an IT admin from a school in Poland
<mhall119> so, we have no hard numbers, but we know it's making it's way around
<MichelleQ> I know that the library system in Reno NV uses Qimo on all of it's children's computers
<MichelleQ> we don't have a great way to track the numbers, but as close as we can figure from download numbers, etc, we'
<MichelleQ> ve got close to 100k kids using Qimo.
<MichelleQ> We get word regularly that Qimo is expanding into new territory
<MichelleQ> Any questions?
<mhall119> http://ubuntuone.com/p/Jzz/ is a screenshot of the default desktop from Qimo 2.0
<mhall119> can everybody see that?
<MichelleQ> Our new character, the polar bear, is Illa, whose name is an Inuit word for friend.
<mhall119> http://ubuntuone.com/p/Jzz/ is the new Illa themed background
<MichelleQ> She was inspired by our daughter's favorite lovey is a polar bear.
<ClassBot> sebsebseb asked: How many schools  or home users have you visited that used Qimo and where?
<MichelleQ> we've delivered personally to four schools/residence facilities in our community, and delivered close to 30 computers into individual homes.
<MichelleQ> that's just the two of us.
<ClassBot> anneboleyn asked: Have you seen Qimo being useful for children younger than three
<MichelleQ> Depends on the child - our daughter took to it about 2.
<mhall119> gCompris and Childsplay in particular have some games that even the very youngest can play
<MichelleQ> There are some games included that are for rudimentary mouse/keyboard skills
<mhall119> gCompris has a couple that teach them to use the keyboard and mouse to interact with the computer
<ClassBot> n3gbz asked: great graphics; who designs them?
<MichelleQ> My brother-in-law is a graphics artist, and donated his time.
<mhall119> he also did the new mascot for Xen.org
<ClassBot> mick_laptop asked: (related to the other comment) why do people never focus on younger children? (I'm developing educational material for children under 3)
<MichelleQ> mick_laptop: I wish I knew.  I can only assume that people make the assumption that a child under three can not be capable of operating a computer.
<MichelleQ> I argue that as long as he/she is in a safe environment, and is allowed to play monitored, for 5-10 minute stretches, that any child over about 18 mnths can learn something interesting.
<mhall119> part of the problem is in communicating with the younger children how to interact with the game, and what the objectives are
<mhall119> for the very young, I've found that 'gamine' is a great way to get them started
<MichelleQ> Gamine is a great little cause-and-effect game.
<mhall119> it has no objectives, and will respond to any input from the keyboard and mouse
<mhall119> so there's nothing to learn
<ClassBot> IdleOne asked: How many languages is Qimo translated to?
<mhall119> there is very little text that is unique to Qimo
<MichelleQ> IdleOne: We include a number of Ubuntu's language packs.
<mhall119> so, any languages that Ubuntu's packages are translated into, we also get
<MichelleQ> Spanish, Portuguese... a handful of others.
<MichelleQ> We're limited by space on the CD, more than anything
<mhall119> the ISO includes most of the major languages we've seen interest from
<mhall119> others are available to download
<ClassBot> sebsebseb asked: You mentioned how Qimio was designed to be used offline, why was it not designed to be used both offline and online?
<MichelleQ> We felt that it would be best for the kids and families we were working with, specifically.  Most of the families that we work with through the charity are low income, and don't *have* internet access.
<MichelleQ> So, we decided to not include filtering, etc, in favor of other games for the kids.
<mhall119> also, like she mentioned earlier, CD space is a big constraint for us
<mhall119> we already strip a lot of packages out in order to fit the games we ship
<MichelleQ> We've discussed using something like Dan's Guardian in the future, and we've worked with the KidZui people in the past for filtering.
<mhall119> there is also Gnome Nanny now
<mhall119> which we will look into
<ClassBot> anneboleyn asked: Where can I get Dan's Guardian? I can't find it in the repos
<mhall119> 'dansguardian' is in the Universe repos
<MichelleQ> dansguardian.org
<mhall119> if you plan on running it locally, you'll need an HTTP proxy too, like Squid or TinyHttpd
<mhall119> there are a lot of tutorials online for setting it up
<mhall119> any other questions?
<MichelleQ> Included as standard for Qimo are GCompris, which is a fabulous collection of games ranging from basic rudimentary to electrical engineering.
<MichelleQ> Child's Play, which has a really good pac-man style spelling game
<mhall119> and flashcards
<MichelleQ> Laby, which is a rudimentary python programming game
<MichelleQ> and then TuxPaint, TuxType, and TuxMath.
<mhall119> Laby, for those who aren't familiar, is a really great way to introduce kids to programming
<ClassBot> anneboleyn asked: In your opinion, what is the maximum age for a child to use Qimo?
<MichelleQ> Maximum age really depends on the child.
<MichelleQ> We've tested consistently with kids up to about 12, a handful a little older.
<MichelleQ> I've also been made aware of Qimo being used for adult transition programs, for special needs adults.
<MichelleQ> For those of you looking for online filtering for your children, I strongly encourage you to look at KidZui.
<MichelleQ> Are there any other questions?
<mhall119> Any thoughts on where we should take Qimo?
<mhall119> We'll be planning version 3 at UDS-N
<MichelleQ> Anything you'd like to see in the future?
<ClassBot> sebsebseb asked: Why is Qimo based on Xubuntu, rather than Ubuntu, or even another distro?
<mhall119> going back to the charity, we had a lot of older hardware
<MichelleQ> we're talking OLD.
<mhall119> the majority of what we had when we got started was Pentium 2 or 3
<MichelleQ> I broke the manufacturer's seal on a 386 about three months ago.
<mhall119> if we had 256MB of RAM, we were lucky
<mhall119> so we needed something light-weight, but still user friendly
<MichelleQ> Xubuntu fit that need
<mhall119> as light-weight as Ubuntu is compared to Windows, it's still slow on some of those
<mhall119> We toyed with using Fluxbox or Openbox at first
<mhall119> but most of the computers we were donating were going to be the _only_ computer in the house
<mhall119> which means we wanted them to be usable as a normal desktop by the adults too
<MichelleQ> And so we wanted the computer to be user-friendly for adults as well
<mhall119> We are keeping an eye on Lubuntu, but for right now it just doesn't fit our need
<mhall119> we're also planning on making a gnome-bases Qimo session for including with Edubuntu
<ClassBot> mick_laptop asked: have you partnered w/ any other groups (or developers) with similar goals?
<MichelleQ> We've been working with the Edubuntu group
<MichelleQ> and we've been in contact with other charities who do similar things.
<mhall119> the Edubuntu devs have been especially helpful to us, and we can't thank them enough
<mhall119> that said, we'd welcome any support we can get, be it in development, infrastructure, testing (especially testing)
<MichelleQ> Additional hands are always welcome
<mhall119> or recommendations for new games
<mhall119> any feedback we get helps us make Qimo better
<MichelleQ> It is just mhall119 and myself, and I'm not a programmer, by any means.  Any additional development would be wonderful.
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<MichelleQ> Any additional questions?
<mhall119> Qimo has a Launchpad page, where you can file bugs and ask questions: https://launchpad.net/qimo
<mhall119> we also have a freenode channel: #qimo
<mhall119> where you can feel free to stop by and chat
<MichelleQ> As people upgrade, our donations have followed.  Where we were getting Pentium IIs & IIIs a year ago, we're now getting IIIs and IVs.
<ClassBot> mick_laptop asked: how long will you be focusing on older hardware and what do your typical donations look like (re: hardware)
<MichelleQ> We're starting to see laptop donations, which has been wonderful.
<mhall119> as i mentioned earlier, a gnome-based Qimo session will be in the works for Edubuntu 11.04/Qimo 3
<MichelleQ> But most everything we're still getting is within the Pentium III generation.
<mhall119> whether or not we'll replace Xfce on the standalone ISO, that we haven't decided yet
<ClassBot> IdleOne asked: Are there any games that teach how to speak/read/write other languages?
<MichelleQ> Not at the moment, though we'd like to incorporate some kind of second-language learning game
<mhall119> there are such apps in the Ubuntu repos though
<MichelleQ> There are a couple of games where you can custom-make your own flashcards, and I suppose you could make other-language cards.
<mhall119> 'parley' teaches reading and writing
<MichelleQ> Any last questions?
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<MichelleQ> If there are no remaining questions, we'll wrap this up.  Thanks everyone.
<mhall119> thank you everyone
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2010/10/12/%23ubuntu-classroom.html
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat ||
<quietone> are there transcripts/logs of these sessions? where?
<porthose> http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/
<quietone> porthose, thx. I found this difficult. How/where do I suggest what I think is a better place to put this link?
<jcastro> it's one the schedule page
<jcastro> and the bot announces it during the sesions
<jcastro> oh I see, for this channel in general you mean
<quietone> jcastro, what is the schedule page?
<jcastro> we're currently in openweek http://wiki.ubuntu.com/OpenWeek
<quietone> jcastro, the link for logs there go to  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/openweekMaverick where there are no logs or links to them.
<jcastro> I see, someone hasn't linked them up yet
<jcastro> Adding a link to the /Classroom wikipage to the irclogs of the channel would probably be useful
<quietone> jcastro, if you mean https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom. then I agree! that always came up high on the searches.
<jcastro> feel free to add it somewhere!
#ubuntu-classroom 2010-10-13
<quietone> jcastro, I took the bait and had a go at it.
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || UOW Survey: http://is.gd/fZlwL || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Accessibility is Important - Instructors: charlie-tca
<charlie-tca> Welcome to Ubuntu Open Week's Wednesday sessions! This has been a really exciting week, and it just keeps going.
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2010/10/13/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<charlie-tca> My name is Charlie Kravetz, also known as charlie-tca on IRC and the mailing lists. I would like to welcome everyone to a great time.
<charlie-tca> I will attempt to answer your questions during my session, but please place QUESTION: in front so the question is visible.
<charlie-tca> for example:
<charlie-tca> QUESTION: what is accessibility?
<charlie-tca> These are asked in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<charlie-tca> I will then repeat the question here, and then answer it. If your question is not shown right away, don't repeat it fast. I will either answer it later, or tell you why.
<charlie-tca> Accessibility in Ubuntu, means the ability of anyone with a disability to use it
<charlie-tca> see, I answered.
<charlie-tca> Any questions?
<charlie-tca> Great! Let's get this rolling then
<charlie-tca> The leaders of the Ubuntu Accessibility Team are Penelope Stowe (pendulum) and Luke Yelavich (TheMuso). Penelope focuses on the outreach and documentation side of the team, while Luke runs the development side.
<charlie-tca> I triage accessibility bugs, and am in the process of re-writing the Accessibility Team wiki. The wiki is located at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility .
<charlie-tca> Accessibility focuses on the Ubuntu desktop, because Gnome has good accessibility features. Would we like to see that expanded? Of course we would!
<charlie-tca> Want to know what accessibility means to us? If you are a non-disabled person, turn off your monitor and use your computer.
<charlie-tca> Can't do that? Missing anything? now put one hand behind your back and turn the monitor back on.
<charlie-tca> Go ahead, use your computer as you normally would!
<charlie-tca> Hmm, difficult to type now?
<ClassBot> nigelb asked: As a non-disabled person, how can I help the accessibility team?
<charlie-tca> The Accessibility Team needs your help. We need to update our team wiki at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility , we need to make sure accessibility features work, we need artwork that is visible for all of us.
<charlie-tca> We also need to advocate for Accessibility in all derivatives of Ubuntu, as well as applications.
<charlie-tca> I can give more references later.
<charlie-tca> The Accessibility Team has conducted a survey and created personas under the guidance of Penelope. We are now able to identify solutions and if required coordinate development to implement them. We also aim to increase awareness of the issues around accessibility with the rest of the Ubuntu project.
<charlie-tca> This session isn't a how-to guide and won't go into a huge amount of detail into any one program. I just hope to raise your awareness, if I can. I also want to get you involved, if possible.
<charlie-tca> Since Ubuntu 10.10 is the latest release, I will address software available in that Ubuntu 10.10 as well as Ubuntu 10.04 LTS.
<charlie-tca> Before I talk about specific programs, I want to talk about the Assistive Technologies menu, which can be found in System->Preferences -> Assistive Technology.
<charlie-tca> This menu is where you can select your preferred accessibility programs and enable assistive technologies.
<charlie-tca> You can use this menu to specify things such as how long to accept as a keypress, how to prevent accidental double clicking, and how quickly to respond to key presses.
<charlie-tca> This is also where I slow my own mouse double-clicks down so it knows about them.
<charlie-tca> It's also useful for turning off and on sticky keys or specifying keystrokes to stand in for things you'd normally do with a mouse.
<charlie-tca> This is also the menu you use to specify which programs you want for an alternate keyboard or as a screen reader.
<charlie-tca> Okay, before I start talking about programs, are there any questions on the Assistive Technology menu?
<charlie-tca> <genupulas> Question :i am not getting that why are you writing that one ...can you please give me a clear reason about that....please
<charlie-tca> Accessibility in Ubuntu, means the ability of anyone with a disability to use it
<charlie-tca> That is, for every person to be able to use a computer, regardless of their ability or disability.
<charlie-tca> that does help, genupulas ?
<charlie-tca> The first set of programs I'm talking about are the text-to-speech programs.
<charlie-tca> The most popular of these is the Orca, although it isn't strictly a screen reader, as it has other capabilities.
<charlie-tca> Orca includes a screen reader, magnification capabilities, and braille capabilities, so it is more than text-to-speech, however most people when you say Orca think of it as a screen reader.
<charlie-tca> Orca was developed by the Accessibility department at Sun Microsystems, however, with the aquisition of Sun by Oracle, it has moved to community-development only.
<charlie-tca> Orca can work with programs that include the at-spi toolkit including the GNOME desktop, Firefox, OpenOffice, and many others.
<charlie-tca> It can also be used with Xfce based applications.
<charlie-tca> More information about Orca can be found at http://live.gnome.org/Orca .
<charlie-tca> Okay, any questions about Orca (named for the whale)?
<charlie-tca> Another text-to-speech program is eSpeak. eSpeak is command line based. It supports quite a few different languages.
<charlie-tca> There are several different versions of eSpeak including one specific to emacs.
<charlie-tca> More information can be found at http://espeak.sourceforge.net/ .
<charlie-tca> These are the two main text-to-speech/screen reader options in the Software Center.
<charlie-tca> Are there any questions about espeak or other questions about text-to-speech in Ubuntu?
<charlie-tca> At the present time, there are no assistive technologies for people with learning/developmental difficulties specifically. Orca and some of the other programs are used by people with learning/developmental disabilities.
<charlie-tca> One thing that happens in the open source world is that other that specific hardware needs (such as integration with braile keyboards or USB switches), things are developed towards what the software needs to do, not why the person needs that software.
<charlie-tca> okay, moving on from text-to-speech, I'm going to quickly cover magnification software.
<charlie-tca> The two bits of magnification software commonly found in Ubuntu are gnome-mag and the magnification part of Orca.
<charlie-tca> These applications allow you to move the magnification screen around your desktop so as to give the total view.
<charlie-tca> For the normal sighted person, they can be cumbersome to use, but for the visually impaired, they allow us to see the entire screen.
<charlie-tca> Next I want to talk about alternate keyboards.
<charlie-tca> These are programs which can be used to replace or augment a traditional keyboard. They usually directly interface with the mouse however the mouse may be controlled.
<charlie-tca> The built-in alternate keyboard for Ubuntu is onBoard. It is basically an on-screen keyboard.
<charlie-tca> It includes everything except the function keys from a regular keyboard.
<charlie-tca> You click on the key or a sequence of keys using the mouse and it inputs directly into whatever program you're working on.
<charlie-tca> Not only useful as assistive technology, it's rather useful for people using Ubuntu on a tablet.
<charlie-tca> Unfortunately, you do need a mouse or other device to be able to use OnBoard
<charlie-tca> The other well known option for alternate keyboard capabilities is Dasher.
<charlie-tca> Dasher, rather than having a keyboard set-up, is mouse controlled by hovering the mouse over the letters on the screen.
<charlie-tca> It also has predicitve text capabilities, which can be quite useful.
<charlie-tca> If you run Dasher from the Applications menu in Ubuntu, it prints the characters in its own text editor and you can copy and paste into other programs.
<charlie-tca> From the command line you can run " dasher -a direct " which allows direct input into other programs.
<charlie-tca> There are also Windows and MacOS X versions of Dasher.
<charlie-tca> For those who have never tried an application like Dasher, I urge you to give it a chance. It is really fascinating how it builds words and sentences.
<charlie-tca> For more information (including video and a way to try without downloading) you can go to http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/dasher/ .
<charlie-tca> By all means, go to the website and try it for yourself.
<charlie-tca> Any questions about Alternate keyboards?
<charlie-tca> There are two programs in Ubuntu that help with alternate mouse controls.
<charlie-tca> These are applications that allow you to actually use the mouse without using your hands, if needed.
<charlie-tca> First, MouseTrap allows headtracking using a webcam to control your mouse.
<charlie-tca> The other application, MouseTweaks  works with the Assistive Technologies menu to give the ability to allow the mouse to "click" even if the mouse user can't actually make the motion that allows a mouse to click normally.
<charlie-tca> These are terrific programs for those who can not use the hardware mouse!
<charlie-tca> And now the topic that everyone asks about: Voice Recognition software.
<charlie-tca> The short answer is that there are hacks and there are programs that sort of work, but there aren't great results for voice recognition in Ubuntu.
<charlie-tca> The only voice recognition software in the Software Center is Julius. Julius was originally developed in Japanese and is being ported to English.
<charlie-tca> Wait! A chance to help, even if you have no disability.
<charlie-tca> Unfortunately, as it's not finished software, the documentation is lacking.
<charlie-tca> The other thing which has worked for some Ubuntu users is to run Dragon Natural Speaking under Wine.
<charlie-tca> and, yes, sometimes we do have to accept that Microsoft and Wine work for us.
<charlie-tca> Any voice recognition questions?
<ClassBot> jothejo2 asked: charlie-tca what is accessibility?
<charlie-tca> hm, you must be one of our late arrivals.
<charlie-tca> Accessibility means that anyone can use the computer. It doesn't matter if they have a physical disability, a visual disability, deafness, or any other issues.
<charlie-tca> All of us want to be able to use the computer just as everyone else can.
<charlie-tca> And, yes, I will answer that as many times as it is asked. Accessibility is very hard for the "normal" person to understand.
<charlie-tca> Now I want to talk quickly about Ubuntu derivatives which focus on accessibility (or have some relevence).
<charlie-tca> Probably the biggest of these at the moment is Vinux.
<charlie-tca> Originally started to be optimised for blind and visually impaired users, at this time, possible accessiblity additions or changes are tested in Vinux first.
<charlie-tca> For more information about Vinux, visit the website at http://vinux.org.uk/ .
<charlie-tca> Finally, we have Qimo4kids, which mhall119 developed partially as a way to create something that would be easy for kids with developmental disabilities to use.
<charlie-tca> There was a great session on Qimo4Kids yesterday. the logs are available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2010/10/12/%23ubuntu-classroom.html for anyone that missed it.
<ClassBot> sebsebseb asked: Does the accessibility team also work with upstreams such as Gnome, to make them more accessible?
<charlie-tca> Great question, sebsebseb
<charlie-tca> Yes, we do. Since Gnome has the best accessibility features of all the desktop environments, we work very closely with them.
<charlie-tca> as a matter of fact,  Gnome A11y team is also often useful: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org & http://projects.gnome.org/accessibility/
<ClassBot> sebsebseb asked: Gnome 3 is coming, how do you think it will effect the accessability team?
<charlie-tca> This is a difficult question to answer.
<charlie-tca> Current changes in Gnome are making accessibility more difficult to integrate well.
<charlie-tca> I am sure they are temporary drawbacks, and the accessiblity team is working with the Gnome developers to insure access for everybody.
<charlie-tca> Where to get help or information:
<charlie-tca> The accessibility wiki is https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Accessibility
<charlie-tca> as well as http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility (which is out of date and in process of updating)
<charlie-tca> The Accessibility section of Ubuntu Forums
<charlie-tca> #ubuntu-accessibility on IRC
<charlie-tca> The mailing list at ubuntu-accessiblity@lists.ubuntu.com
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<charlie-tca> The ubuntu accessibility team wiki is http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Team
<ClassBot> quietone asked: what about when I create documents, what can I do to increase their accessibility?
<charlie-tca> Great question from quietone!
<charlie-tca> Are your documents written using good grammar?
<charlie-tca> Are there references which are incomplete?
<charlie-tca> by that, I mean, things that the normal person sees, such as a wiki reference that reads "wiki.ubuntu.com" instead of "https://wiki.ubuntu.com"
<charlie-tca> that is a simple thing for most people. When the document is put on line, are the fonts fixed? Can I increase the size if needed without losing half the information?
<charlie-tca> Can I not have a document without contrasts? grey on black is really not visible.
<charlie-tca> Question:  how well does 'simon' work?
<charlie-tca> I am not familiar with simon. I can not answer this for you.
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<charlie-tca> QUESTION: Please explain "Can I increase the size if needed without losing half the information" or make a recommendation of what to do.
<charlie-tca> On many on-line websites, the fonts are fixed. That is, the website creator has specified the font size in a css file.
<charlie-tca> When I go to that site, I use Ctrl + plus to increase the font size, and the font grows. Unfortunately, when I do that, the words go away from the page.
<charlie-tca> I can then read what should be there, because growing the font to make is visible makes it too big for the site pages.
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || UOW Survey: http://is.gd/fZlwL || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Intro to Ubuntu Development - Instructors: bilalakhtar - Slides: http://people.ubuntu.com/~nhandler/slides/openweekmaverick/IntroductionToUb
<charlie-tca> I hope this information is useful to you. We are always looking for more people to become more involved in Accessibility.
<ClassBot> Slides for Intro to Ubuntu Development: http://people.ubuntu.com/~nhandler/slides/openweekmaverick/IntroductionToUbuntuDevelopment.pdf
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2010/10/13/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<nigelb> Hellos folks
<bilalakhtar> Hello people and welcome to the third day of the Ubuntu Open week!
<nigelb> The next session will be taken by bilal and here he is :)
<bilalakhtar> Hello people and welcome to the third day of the Ubuntu Open week!
<bilalakhtar> I am Bilal Akhtar, 14 (yes, 10+4) years old, studying at Delhi Public School, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, though I am Indian by origin
<bilalakhtar> sorry for repeating that line, happened by mistake
<bilalakhtar> I am an Ubuntu Developer, and hence, I am here to give you an introduction to Ubuntu Development!
<bilalakhtar> [SLIDE 1]
<bilalakhtar> Before I begin with the session, I want you people to install the following packages, since these will be needed in packaging an application.
<bilalakhtar> These packages are: dpkg-dev build-essential dh-make fakeroot devscripts . To install them, type in a terminal:
<bilalakhtar> sudo apt-get install dpkg-dev build-essential dh-make fakeroot devscripts
<bilalakhtar> [Slide 1]
<bilalakhtar> So let's begin!
<bilalakhtar> If you want to ask a question, ask it on #ubuntu-classroom-chat with the prefix QUESTION: eg. QUESTION: What does 'foo' mean?
<bilalakhtar> Now, create an empty directory in your home directory
<bilalakhtar> since I will now tell you how to package a small C application
<bilalakhtar> [SLIDE 2]
<bilalakhtar> Name the directory hello-packaging
<bilalakhtar> and open a terminal and cd into it by typing cd hello-packaging
<bilalakhtar> Then, download the source code of the upstream package. What is upstream? Let me explain
<bilalakhtar> Upstream refers to the original application. The upstream application is packaged and made into a Debian package, also called a deb
<bilalakhtar> Download the upstream source by running this command:
<bilalakhtar> wget http://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/hello/hello-2.6.tar.gz
<bilalakhtar> then extract the source by running: tar xzf hello-2.6.tar.gz
<bilalakhtar> Okay, machinezilla just tols something about a postfix problem he is facing
<bilalakhtar> sorry for ignoring it earlier
<bilalakhtar> Set it to No configuration
<ClassBot> nisshh asked: apparently there are multiple ways to package something, which is confusing for new developers, is there a "recommended" or "simple and easy" way to package the majority of things?
<bilalakhtar> Of course there are multiple ways of packagign
<bilalakhtar> *packaging
<bilalakhtar> Packaging Python/PHP/Perl applications involve different processes
<bilalakhtar> The simplest is packaging C/C++ apps
<bilalakhtar> there are different ways in that as well
<bilalakhtar> but I am telling the latest and best of them
<bilalakhtar> which is, of course, *recommended* for new packages
<bilalakhtar> Right!
<bilalakhtar> Now, you shall have 1 folder and 1 file in your directory
<bilalakhtar> Rename the hello-2.6.tar.gz file to hello_2.6.orig.tar.gz
<bilalakhtar> and then cd into the hello-2.6 directory
<bilalakhtar> okay, now you need to set up your packaging environment
<bilalakhtar> for which you need to run the below commands:
<bilalakhtar> echo "export DEBEMAIL \"YOUR_EMAIL_ADDRESS@something.com\"" >> ~/.bashrc
<bilalakhtar> Replace YOUR_EMAIL_ADDRESS@something.com with your e-mail address
<bilalakhtar> Alo run:
<bilalakhtar> echo "export DEBFULLNAME \"Your Full Name\"" >> ~/.bashrc
<bilalakhtar> Then run :
<bilalakhtar> gpg --gen-key
<bilalakhtar> Answer the questions, and you shall have a gpg key
<bilalakhtar> Now, I assume you are in your hello-packaging/hello-2.6 directory
<bilalakhtar> Run the below command:
<bilalakhtar> dh_make -c gpl3 -s
<bilalakhtar> -c gpl3 specifies the license
<bilalakhtar> and -s means a single binary package
<bilalakhtar> Now, your hello-2.6 folder must be having a debian/ subfolder
<bilalakhtar> cd into it
<bilalakhtar> we need to remove the extra files
<bilalakhtar> to do that, run:
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || UOW Survey: http://is.gd/fZlwL || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Intro to Ubuntu Development - Instructors: bilalakhtar - Slides: http://tinyurl.com/244y3k7
<bilalakhtar> [SLIDE 2]
<bilalakhtar> Make sure you are in the debian folder, and run:
<bilalakhtar> rm *ex *EX README.* info docs
<bilalakhtar> Now, open the control file in the debian folder with your favourite text editor
<bilalakhtar> Set the Homepage: line to Homepage: http://www.gnu.org/software/hello/
<bilalakhtar> This is the link to the main page of the project
<bilalakhtar> And, you will need to add a description as well
<bilalakhtar> so edit the Description: line and add a short description just after Description:
<ClassBot> machinezilla asked: i am stuck at gpg keygen step. i keep getting the following: Not enough random bytes available.  Please do some other work to give
<bilalakhtar> You must leave it at the step for some time (upto 5 mins) so that it has enough random bytes
<bilalakhtar> So I was at the Description: step
<bilalakhtar> Enter a long description BELOW the line, intended with spaces
<bilalakhtar> like this:
<bilalakhtar>  Hello is a tiny program that prints Hello World!
<bilalakhtar>  It follows GNU standards in coding
<bilalakhtar>  and can be translated into other languages
<bilalakhtar> Make sure each line has a space before it, otherwise the description won't come as intended
<bilalakhtar> Now, save and close the control file
<bilalakhtar> Ignore the compat file, its usage is beyond the scope of this tutorial
<bilalakhtar> Open the copyright file
<bilalakhtar> In real packaging, you will have to fill the placeholders in the file with real URLs and real authors
<bilalakhtar> that's all about this file
<bilalakhtar> now, open control again
<bilalakhtar> I missed something in it
<bilalakhtar> Change the Section: to Section: misc
<bilalakhtar> And remove the #Vcs- fields
<bilalakhtar> Save and exit
<bilalakhtar> Since this is a simple C application using GNU autotools
<bilalakhtar> you don't need to modify the rules file
<bilalakhtar> however, if you follow other packaging techniques, you do need to
<bilalakhtar> so now for the changelog file
<bilalakhtar> The changelog contains a list of all the changes in a package, version-by-version
<bilalakhtar> let me give an example
<bilalakhtar> http://changelogs.ubuntu.com/changelogs/pool/universe/a/a2ps/a2ps_4.14-1.1/changelog
<bilalakhtar> This is a typical changelog
<bilalakhtar> Too confusing, eh? But there is a utility to help you deal with debian changelogs
<bilalakhtar> which is debchange
<bilalakhtar> You already have it installed as part of package devscripts
<bilalakhtar> so poke it with:
<bilalakhtar> debchange -e
<bilalakhtar> If it asks for an editor, select your favourite one
<bilalakhtar> Now, let us analyse the changelog
<bilalakhtar> The first line is something like this:
<bilalakhtar> hello (2.6-1) unstable; urgency=low
<bilalakhtar> Change unstable above to maverick
<bilalakhtar> 2.6-1 is the version
<bilalakhtar> though when packagign for Ubuntu it would be 2.6-0ubuntu1
<bilalakhtar> 2.6 is the upstream application number, 0 is the debian version for a package not in Debian, and 1 is Ubuntu revision number
<bilalakhtar> Modify the second line like this
<bilalakhtar>   * Initial Release
<bilalakhtar> that's all
<bilalakhtar> Save and close
<bilalakhtar> Now, run debuild in the terminal
<ClassBot> machinezilla asked: what are the #Vcs fields?
<bilalakhtar> They contain the links to the upstream revision control source location
<bilalakhtar> What is that?
<bilalakhtar> Its a link to the place where the latest source code is located
<ClassBot> daker asked: do i have right to package a proprietary software ?
<bilalakhtar> Yes you can, but you will need to have access to the source
<bilalakhtar> and
<bilalakhtar> you will need to mention about the license of the package PROPERLY in debian/copyright
<bilalakhtar> Now, as I said, run the command debuild
<bilalakhtar> It will build the package
<ClassBot> machinezilla asked: so the vcs field is the "Homepage:" field?
<bilalakhtar> no
<bilalakhtar> Homepage: refers to the home page of the software project
<bilalakhtar> which is meant for user
<bilalakhtar> *users
<bilalakhtar> while Vcs-* fields point directly at the developer source of the package
<bilalakhtar> I hope the package is built now
<bilalakhtar> and in the hello-packaging folder you should have a deb file
<bilalakhtar> Congrats! You just packaged an application!
<bilalakhtar> [SLIDE 3]
<bilalakhtar> Oops, sorry for not mentioning this earlier
<bilalakhtar> but you will need to modify the Maintainer: field in debian/control to: Maintainer: Ubuntu Developers <ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com>
<bilalakhtar> Now building should work
<bilalakhtar> As the slide shows, Ubuntu is based on Debian http://www.debian.org
<bilalakhtar> [SLIDE 4]
<bilalakhtar> The slides now tell everything
<bilalakhtar> Please ask questions if you have any
<bilalakhtar> [SLIDE 5]
<bilalakhtar> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/Merging outlines the merging process
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<bilalakhtar> [SLIDE 6]
<ClassBot> autif asked: If I have a piece of software (say) of source forge or git hub and I want to submit it to debian. Where do I sent it to to be included as a part of the official repository?
<bilalakhtar> Wait a minute, I am searching for a link
<bilalakhtar> [SLIDE 7]
<bilalakhtar> http://wiki.debian.org/HowToPackageForDebian
<bilalakhtar> and
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<bilalakhtar> [SLIDE 8]
<bilalakhtar> http://mentors.debian.net/cgi-bin/maintainer-intro should help you if you want to get a new package in debian
<bilalakhtar> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ContributingToDebian will also help you
<ClassBot> autif asked: What is the level of testing expected before that package is submitted to the official repository - I mean if my fav distro is xubuntu, do I need to test it on ubuntu or latest debian?
<bilalakhtar> As I said
<bilalakhtar> new packages should come into Debian first
<bilalakhtar> so testing with latest Debian is the best
<bilalakhtar> Xubuntu uses same repos as Ubuntu
<bilalakhtar> [SLIDE 9]
<bilalakhtar> And Ubuntu syncs from Debian
<bilalakhtar> so getting a package in Debian will mean that it will come everywhere :)
<ClassBot> kstailey_ asked: What does it take to get a PPA into Multiverse?
<bilalakhtar> What do you actually mean?
<bilalakhtar> You mean, a PPA Package?
<bilalakhtar> you will need to check it for errors
<bilalakhtar> [SLIDE 10]
<bilalakhtar> And then apply through the sponsorship process for new packages
<bilalakhtar> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/NewPackages
<bilalakhtar> is the process :)
<ClassBot> machinezilla asked: debuild is failing at gpp step. see paste: http://paste.ubuntu.com/512465/
<bilalakhtar> Make sure that your DEBEMAIL and DEBFULLNAME variables are set
<bilalakhtar> and your GPG key e-mail address matches it
<bilalakhtar> okay, almost time up
<bilalakhtar> Any more Qs?
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || UOW Survey: http://is.gd/fZlwL || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Intro to Ubuntu and Cloud, running your 1st Ubuntu Server on EC2 - Instructors: kim0
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2010/10/13/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<kim0> Good Morning, Good Afternoon and Good evening folks
<kim0> Let me introduce myself .. This is Ahmed Kamal
<kim0> I am the Ubuntu cloud liaison
<kim0> So this session is cloud computing basics
<kim0> Basically .. it introduces what cloud computing is all about
<kim0> I do hear a lot from people who wonder what this cloud thing is all about
<kim0> and what's in it "for me"
<kim0> this session is exactly for that .. If you're more advanced however, I'd like to invite you to also attend the next session
<kim0> by Dustin kirkland, a developer on the Ubuntu server team
<kim0> This session is two parts
<kim0> part1: I give an intro to cloud, and we have a Q+A session
<kim0> part2: I will demo launching your first Ubuntu server VM on the Amazon EC2 cloud
<kim0> which will include using cloud-init, a unique Ubuntu server package that makes it easier to work with VMs in the cloud
<kim0> So the first thing you need to know about cloud computing .. is that everyone who knows about it has a different view on what it really is
<kim0> i.e. every person has some definition, which I'm sure many other quite knowledgeable people would disagree about
<kim0> If you're using Gmail/Facebook/Dropbox .. you're already using cloud computing
<kim0> and you probably don't even know it!
<kim0> I won't try to present a conclusive definition of cloud computing here, but I will say any cloud vendor should provide the following properties
<kim0> -Pay per use
<kim0> -Instant Scalability
<kim0> -Security (If you trust your provider)
<kim0> -Reliability
<kim0> -APIs
<kim0> let me quickly comment on each of those points
<kim0> the first .. pay per use, really means that you only pay for what you use
<kim0> this is as opposed to a more traditional VPS (Virtual Private Server)
<kim0> where you rent by the month ..
<kim0> in the pay per use model .. you can use 100 servers for 1 hour and only pay for that!
<kim0> -Instant Scalability
<kim0> This one means .. that most cloud providers
<kim0> do not limit your scaling .. ie if you need more storage or more servers
<kim0> you can go ahead and just get them .. no need for pre-committment
<kim0> -Security (If you trust your provider)
<kim0> Well .. a major debate point
<kim0> however .. Some people will never trust their data on someone else's data-center
<kim0> however .. some other people will say ...
<kim0> just as you trust the bank with your money .. trust us with your data
<kim0> it really depends on how valuable your data is to you, how much you trust the provider
<kim0> however .. if you have no dedicated IT staff .. throwing your load on a public cloud may even provide better security than running things in house
<kim0> -Reliability
<kim0> Most cloud vendors will invest in building a reliable data center
<kim0> replicated storage
<kim0> fault tolerant equipment ...etc
<kim0> you gain all of that ..
<kim0> -APIs
<kim0> The final point .. and it basically means that you control your cloud virtual data center
<kim0> through a set of APIs
<kim0> APIs are Application Programming Interfaces
<kim0> basically .. a way to programmatically create servers, storage, hook them up together
<kim0> so you can basically script or program everything that builds your entire virtual data-center
<kim0> "automation" is thus big in the cloud world
<kim0> and APIs do enable that
<kim0> when you're managing hundreds or thousands of virtual servers .. automation is generally important
<kim0> so ..
<kim0> In essence when you decide to use cloud computing, you're outsourcing your IT services (storage, infrastructure, ...etc) to a vendor that uses his skills to provide a reliable,secure service and uses the economies of scale to provide them at very competitive prices
<kim0> Any questions so far ?
<ClassBot> jack002 asked: What happens if vendor stop supporting a cloud?
<kim0> The question is what about if my cloud vendor dies/disappears/goes-out-of-business
<kim0> A very valid concern indeed
<kim0> that is why most cloud concerned IT people
<kim0> try to avoid "vendor lock in"
<kim0> which means having a standard API to manage your cloud
<kim0> and being able to quickly and easily migrate your data and infrastructure off to a different cloud
<kim0> there is a lot of effort in that direction
<kim0> standardizing APIs ..
<kim0> writing wrapper tools like the delta-cloud wrapper
<kim0> to standardize cloud management
<kim0> however .. the whole scene is too young and fast moving .. so there is not definitive answer yet
<kim0> however indeed .. vendor lock in is something you should care about
<kim0> Alright
<kim0> So, let's move on to the different types of clouds
<kim0> Most people categorize clouds as either
<kim0> -IaaS
<kim0> -PaaS
<kim0> -SaaS
<kim0> being .. Infrastructure, Platform, Software
<kim0> as a Service
<kim0> IaaS: Basically means .. you get the low level infrastructure as a service. i.e. what you get is, raw storage, networking bandwidth, load balancers, servers ...etc
<kim0> and you build your code and applications on top
<kim0> very similar to physical servers really
<kim0> This is similar to the Amazon EC2 cloud .. the rackspace cloud and many others
<kim0> PaaS: being .. Platform .. you get a "platform" to code against!
<kim0> i.e. you don't really see "machine" and "storage"
<kim0> you may not even know how many machines your code is running on
<kim0> you may not know how the network is configured!
<kim0> What you do get
<kim0> is a "File-system" for example to put shared data on
<kim0> you'd get an API to store/retrieve data from
<kim0> ...etc
<kim0> How this database you're using is actually configurd .. where does it run .. is none of your concerns!
<kim0> The prime example of a PaaS .. is the Google App Engine platform
<kim0> The major benefit of PaaS .. is that you don't care/know about the low level stuff
<kim0> it all "just works" as far as you're concerned
<kim0> however .. the bad part .. is that you don't know the low level stuff also!
<kim0> you cannot change anything .. you have almost zero control on the low level configuration ...etc
<kim0> Another major benefit, is that you get scaling, for very little or almost no effort
<kim0> on the other hand .. with IaaS ..
<kim0> you would have to build your application in a scalable manner
<kim0> you'd have to use load balancers .. use caching in a smart way ..
<kim0> manage DB replicas .. manage DB sharding ... etc
<kim0> lots of stuff, which may consume a lot of effort
<kim0> The last cloud type we mentioned was
<kim0> -SaaS
<kim0> basically Software as a service
<kim0> What this means .. is that you get a final completed "Software" running in the cloud
<kim0> and you just use it!
<kim0> examples .. are like Salesforce.com
<kim0> It is a complete CRM application
<kim0> that is running in the cloud
<kim0> you don't need to worry about buying servers, buying storage, running or scaling it
<kim0> or backing it up ...etc
<kim0> you just pay per use
<kim0> the simplicity and benefits are obvious .. while of course vendor lockin is also fairly obvious and problematic
<kim0> Cool ..
<kim0> Another classification type of Clouds
<kim0> is
<kim0> private, public, hybrid
<kim0> let's quickly comment on that
<kim0> -Private: Means a cloud that you built and that you control .. in-house .. behind your firewall .. in your own datacenter
<kim0> An enterprise may very well build its own private cloud for its internal users
<kim0> -Public: This basically means a cloud that's available publicly on the Internet for anyone that pays
<kim0> -Hybrid: This one is a mix of both public and private
<kim0> for example .. you may build an inhouse cloud that handles the average load
<kim0> however .. a couple of days per month
<kim0> you get 5x the normal load for some reason
<kim0> so you decide to "burst" out
<kim0> to some public cloud
<kim0> so you start some virtual servers (VMs) on a public cloud
<kim0> perhaps establish a VPN connection between your enterprise and the public cloud
<kim0> et voila .. you can expand your virtual datacenter as much as you want to handle the extra load
<kim0> so .. any questions so far
<ClassBot> kstailey_ asked: is libcloud an API?
<kim0> libcloud is an abstraction library
<kim0> that works across many cloud vendors
<kim0> so if you're writing an in house script that connects to a public cloud
<kim0> creates a few servers and configures them
<kim0> if you build your script over libcloud
<kim0> you'd be able to quickly replace
<kim0> Amazon ec2 for example .. by linode
<kim0> across many others
<kim0> this is part of the solutions to the vendor lockin problem
<ClassBot> ongolaBoy asked: I guess that all this kind of cloud involve tons of complex hardware and software to run. Am I right ?
<kim0> Well ..
<kim0> remember when we said public vs private clouds
<kim0> One thing I would like to mention is that you can build a private cloud
<kim0> today using Ubuntu
<kim0> using Ubuntu Enterprise Cloud
<kim0> UEC
<kim0> that is integrated with the Ubuntu server CDs
<kim0> to answer your question about "complexity"
<kim0> I would say it is very "simple" for a sysadmin type person to install and get UEC cloud running
<kim0> after all everything is easier with Ubuntu :)
<kim0> however ..
<kim0> of course for production clouds that serve the whole world
<kim0> the likes of Amazon and Google data-centers
<kim0> indeed the hardware and software involved can become quite involved
<kim0> requiring teams of highly skilled unix geeks to keep up and running
<kim0> you can start small .. UEC for example can be run on only 2 machines
<kim0> or with some hacks .. even just one machine
<kim0> and grow your infrastructure as much as you want
<ClassBot> kstailey_ asked: does it make sense to run PaaS on Iaas?
<kim0> Good question
<kim0> It makes sense to me
<kim0> The most popular PaaS platforms are however proprietary
<kim0> for example .. the Google App Engine code is closed AFAIK
<kim0> if it were open .. you could definitely get it running over IaaS
<kim0> after all .. it needs to run over something
<kim0> there definitely are some smaller PaaS frameworks that you can start using
<kim0> I remember coding against a framework called web2py
<kim0> which could either be deployed locally
<kim0> OR could be deployed to run over google app engine
<kim0> such solutions may be a good starting points to avoid vendor lockin
<ClassBot> komputes asked: This all sounds great but how does one do this virtual datacenter expantion with minimum development knowledge?
<kim0> Not sure if "development" in your question means linux sysadmin knowledge or actually development knowledge writing your app
<kim0> with APIs .. you basically can create a virtual data-center
<kim0> without too much IT infrastructure knowledge
<kim0> i.e. without much knowledge of servers, storage, networking ...etc
<kim0> an application developer can get by perhaps without a Linux admin at all
<kim0> however .. ofcourse you still need app development skills to run your app
<kim0> even more so .. to create an app that can be scaled to take advantage of the cloud
<ClassBot> komputes asked: Is there a pre-built solution for using a cloud as a remote desktop middle-man (i.e. I want to support grandma but both of us are behind a firewalls and both ends can't port forward - not admin)
<kim0> I don't think you need a cloud for that .. you can use applications like TeamViewer or logmein (free but not foss)
<kim0> although you could write your own app if you wanted to of course
<ClassBot> kstailey_ asked: how long before we see Ubuntu switch to OpenStack?
<kim0> UEC is built on top of the best open source cloud technologies
<kim0> at the moment .. that is Eucalyptus
<kim0> openstack is a fine piece of evolving technology though
<kim0> it's already in maverick universe .. so you can go ahead and play with it
<kim0> we're kinda running out of time
<kim0> just wanted to mention a couple of killer cloud use cases
<kim0> If your application load varies significantly (top load / least load > 10)
<kim0> then you most likely will benefit from running your load over a cloud
<kim0> examples
<kim0> The Washington Post: 200 EC2 instances (1,407 server hours), convert 17,481 pages of Hillary Clintonâs travel documents within 9 hours
<kim0> The New York TimesÂ used 100 Amazon EC2 instances + Hadoop application to recognize 4TB of raw Â TIFF image into 1.1 million PDFsÂ in 24 hours ($240)Â 
<kim0> Okay
<kim0> so let's start with a quick demo
<kim0> which I hope is going to actually work :)
<kim0> In this demo we will use Amazon's EC2 cloud
<kim0> we will launch Ubuntu server
<kim0> Note that
<kim0> if you want to experience Ubuntu server over EC2 cloud yourself
<kim0> You can
<kim0> For Free !
<kim0> Well actually Canonical pays for you
<kim0> You can run it for an hour
<kim0> by visiting http://10.cloud.ubuntu.com
<kim0> The first thing is identifying
<kim0> which Ubuntu server you want to run
<kim0> you can do so by visiting
<kim0> http://uec-images.ubuntu.com/releases/maverick/release/
<kim0> or you can replace maverick by any other release name
<kim0> You can pick any AMI you want
<kim0> AMI = Amazon Machine Image
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<kim0> basically a blueprint/template of the virtual server you will start
<kim0> assuming you have the ec2 tools setup correctly
<kim0> You can create and launch your server with one command like
<kim0> ec2-run-instances ami-508c7839 --instance-type t1.micro --region us-east-1 -k MyEC2Key --user-data-file=cloudinit.txt
<kim0> ami-508c7839 : Is the AMI we chose
<kim0> t1.micro = is the smallest machine Amazon provides
<kim0> MyEC2Key: Is my private key (my password if you will)
<kim0> cloudinit.txt :
<kim0> That is one interesting feature of Ubuntu in the cloud
<kim0> cloud-init is a feature which allows the VM to automatically customizes itself
<kim0> as it boots
<kim0> i.e. you can tell the machine
<kim0> to upgrade all software (apt-get upgrade)
<kim0> and install apache2
<kim0> all while booting
<kim0> Take a look at
<kim0> http://paste.ubuntu.com/512497/
<kim0> Which shows the cloud-init file I am using
<kim0> This file ensures that
<kim0> the VM upgrades itself
<kim0> runs byobu
<kim0> imports my ssh public key from launchpad!
<kim0> automatically so I can login
<kim0> installs apache
<kim0> and runs some commands at machine boot time
<kim0> this is of course awesome
<kim0> since all your servers launch from the same template
<kim0> you need a way to customize them
<kim0> into their respective roles
<kim0> and cloud-init does just that
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<kim0> If you visit
<kim0> http://typewith.me/Eip1j21bJ3
<kim0> I will  paste the command output interactively
<kim0> The bold text ,, is called the machine ID
<kim0> Now my server has been created
<kim0> I ran describe instances
<kim0> this gets me the public name
<kim0> of my server
<kim0> if you visit that
<kim0> there should be apache
<kim0> http://ec2-184-72-172-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com/
<kim0> Indeed .. it works!
<kim0> that's how easy it is
<kim0> to deploy an ubuntu server with a customized apache running on it
<kim0> sorry folks if we're running out of time
<kim0> one final thing I wanna show you
<kim0> is the logs of the machine
<kim0> http://paste.ubuntu.com/512499/
<kim0> notice how cloud-init has customized the server
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || UOW Survey: http://is.gd/fZlwL || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Deploying Web Applications in the Cloud - Instructors: kirkland
<kim0> upgraded it and installed apache
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2010/10/13/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<kirkland> howdy howdy howdy!
<kirkland> alright
<kirkland> so continuing on with the cloud theme, i'll invite you to join me for a real live demo
<kirkland> if you would be so kind as to:
<kirkland>   ssh -C guest@ec2-174-129-94-110.compute-1.amazonaws.com
<kirkland> the password is 'guest'
<kirkland> i'll wait just a minute for people to log in
<kirkland> when you get in, you should see a shared Byobu session
<kirkland> with the matrix screen saver running
<kirkland> i have write access
<kirkland> everyone else should have read only access
<kirkland> now, i'm going to go through a few examples in that window, that everyone will be able to see
<kirkland> however, you're welcome to do the same things on your own system
<kirkland> all of what i'm going to do will work on your Ubuntu desktop, server, or virtual machine
<kirkland> and if you haven't already, go to http://10.cloud.ubuntu.com for your free hour of Ubuntu in the Cloud :-)
<kirkland> okay, so yeah, a free hour in the cloud ... as many people have asked
<kirkland> "so I logged in, and that's cool, but .... now what?" :-)
<kirkland> well, i find cloud instances great places for writing and deploying web applications
<kirkland> many web apps are small, and lightweight, and can work very well in a virtualized cloud environment
<kirkland> i'm going to go through a few examples of some sample web apps
<kirkland> you may or may not be interested in the particular applications that i demo
<kirkland> but hopefully they'll give you a good idea
<kirkland> alrighty, any questions before we get started?
<kirkland> great ...
<kirkland> alright, so first, we're going to deploy a web app in this cloud instance that will allow us to share pictures over the web
<kirkland> there are lots of public ones available, like Flickr, Picasa, etc.
<kirkland> and those are certainly great for what they are
<kirkland> but sometimes, perhaps, you want to run the server yourself
<kirkland> or, you don't want to upload your pictures to a 3rd party
<kirkland> or perhaps you just want to tinker with the source code, like me :-)
<kirkland> Ubuntu includes a number of such web apps
<kirkland> i'm going to show you how to deploy, configure, and install one such
<kirkland> and I picked it because I wrote it as a college student in 1999 :-)
<kirkland> sudo apt-get install pictor
<kirkland> i'm doing that in the shared screen session now
<kirkland> now i've got a stack of dependencies that are going to be installed
<kirkland> http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/512507/
<kirkland> ^ if you're not following in screen
<kirkland> notice how fast these download and install in the cloud :-)
<kirkland> this is because Canonical provides a mirror of the ubuntu archive in EC2 itself
<kirkland> note that you're not charged for network bandwidth inside of EC2
<kirkland> okay, cool, so now pictor is installed
<kirkland> let's point our web browser to it
<kirkland> um, i see i have an error message :-)  one second ...
<kirkland> Your apache2 configuration is broken, so we're not restarting it for you.
<kirkland> (sorry, i just set this up before the session, purged it uncleanly)
<kirkland> okay, sorry
<kirkland> http://174.129.94.110/pictor/
<kirkland> now it's up
<kirkland> so that's the default landing page of pictor
<kirkland> to review ...
<kirkland> sudo apt-get install pictor
<kirkland> i had to sudo service apache2 restart
<kirkland> then point a browser to http://174.129.94.110/pictor/
<kirkland> there, i see an error message
<kirkland> ERROR
<kirkland> No pictures found.
<kirkland> Create a symlink to your pictures folder at
<kirkland> /usr/share/pictor/pictures
<kirkland> so i've seeded this instance with a few pictures
<kirkland> in ubuntu's home directory, we should see a Pictures dir
<kirkland> which you also have on your Ubuntu desktop
<kirkland> inside of the Pictures dir there can be a list of sub dirs
<kirkland> and subdirs can have subdirs, etc. etc. etc.
<kirkland> and so on
<kirkland> our error message at http://174.129.94.110/pictor/ says that we need a symlink
<kirkland> to tell pictor where our pictures are located
<kirkland> which is /home/ubuntu/Pictures
<kirkland> let's do this...
<kirkland> sudo ln -s /home/ubuntu/Pictures /usr/share/pictor/pictures
<kirkland> now refresh http://174.129.94.110/pictor/
<kirkland> and you should see a list of the available albums
<kirkland> click on one of them, and you should either see more subdirs, or thumbnails of pictures
<kirkland> looks like my upload did not complete
<kirkland> anyway, you get the 'picture' ;-)
 * kirkland finishes syncing
<kirkland> click on a given picture, and you get meta data details about the photo
<kirkland> you can dynamically resize, rotate it, etc.
<kirkland> let's take a quick look where this is happening ...
<kirkland> cd /var/cache/pictor
<kirkland> ls
<kirkland> resize  thumbnails
<kirkland> there's a set of thumbnails cached here, which are taken out of the JPEG headers (if available), and if not, it uses ImageMagik to create and cache a thumbnail
<kirkland> we can clear this cache at any time, and it just gets rebuilt
<kirkland> ubuntu@ip-10-202-194-3:/var/cache/pictor/thumbnails$ sudo rm -rf *
<kirkland> now, just refresh http://174.129.94.110/pictor/?album=/Puppies/2007-12-17&thumbs=1
<kirkland> note that it's easy to drop an .htaccess file in here and make this password protected
<kirkland> if you wanted to make these somewhat more "private"
<kirkland> and there's no database at all
<kirkland> all of pictor is driven from the filesystem and metadata included in the JPG
<kirkland> so it's trivial to move pictures around
<kirkland> upload more, etc.
<kirkland> also, it comes with a handy little utility called "pictor-unload"
<kirkland> which you can use to keep pictures from multiple cameras in sync
<kirkland> so if i'm shooting with one camera, and my wife is shooting with another
<kirkland> and their two clocks are in sync
<kirkland> we can unload the two flash cards, and name the pics accordingly
<kirkland> let me try to fake a demo of that ...
<kirkland> since clouds don't have flash media :-)
<kirkland> okay, let's pretend that /media/flash is my flash disk
<kirkland> and in there, there's a subdir of some pictures
<kirkland> and i want to "unload" those
<kirkland> let's make a new destination directory
<kirkland> pictor-unload /media/flash /home/ubuntu/Pictures/More\ Puppies
<kirkland> okay, now i have a copy of the pics in the current dir, renamed with their timestamp on the front
<kirkland> this helps keep things in order
<kirkland> and now, goto http://174.129.94.110/pictor/?album=/More+Puppies&thumbs=1
<kirkland> and you see that the new pics are up already
<kirkland> okay ... so that a whirlwind tour of pictor
<kirkland> a fun little web app to deploy in the cloud (though you could just as easily do so on a server or a desktop)
<kirkland> let's now take a look at it's more musical cousin ...
<kirkland> musica
<kirkland> musica is a web app for streaming music
<kirkland> it's a nice way of accessing your entire music library remotely
<kirkland> (and another web app i wrote in college, back in 1998-1999)
<kirkland> sudo apt-get install musica
<kirkland> alrighty, just like that, musica is now installed
<kirkland> now, point your browser to http://174.129.94.110/musica/
<kirkland> once again, we see that we need to put a symlink in place to tell musica where to find our tunes
<kirkland> and once again, i've preloaded this cloud instance with a few tunes from some of my musical friends
<kirkland> can everyone get to http://174.129.94.110/musica/ okay?
<kirkland> alright, now let's create that symlink
<kirkland> sudo ln -s /home/ubuntu/Music /usr/share/musica/music
<kirkland> and refresh http://174.129.94.110/musica/
<kirkland> there's a couple of frames to this webpage
<kirkland> (yeah, i wrote most of this long before ajax existed)
<kirkland> the left most is a list of artists
<kirkland> which include my buddy "Jeff Luna" and his zaney comedic tunes
<kirkland> and Last Chance Dave -- a couple of guys with some nice soulful rock
<kirkland> clicking on either of them will show the albums that i have
<kirkland> for that artist
<kirkland> clicking on an album will then launch a flash based player
<kirkland> called jplayer, which is embedded
<kirkland> from there, you have the basic streaming functionality
<kirkland> play/pause, skip around, volume, etc.
<kirkland> you can also download an m3u playlist, or a tarball of the whole album
<kirkland> now, let's add some new tunes to our library
<kirkland> in case you missed it, jono's band, Severed Fifth released a new album this week-ish
<kirkland> it's freely downloadable from http://www.severedfifth.com/releases/
<kirkland> wget http://audio.lugradio.org/severedfifth/nightmaresbydesign/severedfifth-nightmaresbydesign-2010-ogg.zip
<kirkland> and we watch that download to our cloud instance
<kirkland> .... done
<kirkland> sorry , network connectivity issue
<kirkland> :-(
<kirkland> tethered through phone now
<kirkland> okay, let's get some new music
<kirkland> now try refreshing http://174.129.94.110/musica/
<kirkland> okay, so that's pretty much musica
<kirkland> again, like pictor, it's easy to add an .htaccess
<kirkland> and authenticate through
<kirkland> to "protect" your pictures and music
<kirkland> it's also easy to add SSL to the apache configuration
<kirkland> this is where the embedded player is really nice
<kirkland> it doesn't even need to know about that at all
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<kirkland> <IdleOne> QUESTION: why aren't the severed fifth tunes playing?
<kirkland> <kirkland> IdleOne: possibly a bug in ogg support in jplayer, i'll need to take a look at that one
<kirkland> let's try to get to some questions
<kirkland> i had hoped to deploy a wordpress instance and a moodle server
<kirkland> i can do those quickly, without much detail if you like
<kirkland> or i can field some questions
<kirkland> <sujiths80> Question:I loged into the cloud but I can see some letters scrolling ,..is it the same expected
<kirkland> that was the program 'cmatrix'
<kirkland> :-)
<kirkland> supposed to look like the matrix
<kirkland> i think it's a fun screen saver for servers :-)
<kirkland> <sujiths80> Question:How long we cloud computing if try 10.ubuntu cloud page
<kirkland> those instances only last about ~1 hour
<kirkland> so it's really just for test driving
<kirkland> you can buy your own instance though, if you like
<kirkland> and keep it as long as you're willing to pay Amazon for it
<kirkland> (ubuntu is free though)
<kirkland> <kstailey_> is that the standard-issue byobu profile?
<kirkland> i've tweaked a couple of things
<kirkland> i wanted to see the ec2-cost, network traffic, and number of people logged in
<kirkland> <sebsebseb> QUESTION: So basically pictor is a photo gallery program, but what is needed on a web server for it?
<kirkland> yeah, that's it basically;  sudo apt-get install pictor will install all of its web server dependencies
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<kirkland> <hermes> 17:56:32> QUESTION: How do these instances actually get created with CLOUD?
<kirkland> i created this instance using ec2-run-instance
<kirkland> and picked an image from http://uec-images.ubuntu.com/maverick/current/
<kirkland> i used screenbin(1) to set it up for this classroom setting
<kirkland> where i have write access you have read access
<kirkland> <sujiths80> 17:56:29> Please proceed with wordpress then
<kirkland> installing now ...
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2010/10/13/%23ubuntu-classroom.html
<kirkland> <autif> QUESTION: so how is deploying an app to a cloud any different from applying to Ubuntu Server. I am guessing the answer is that it isn't. Just ssh  and sudo apt-get install -y. Is that correct?
<kirkland> autif: mostly the same
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || UOW Survey: http://is.gd/fZlwL ||
<Kilos> aw schools over
<Kilos> Rusty49, you here still
<Rusty49> yes
<Kilos> ok you good here then
<Kilos> cheers all
#ubuntu-classroom 2010-10-14
<sebsebseb>  
<mzuverink> MOTD
<Fikret_TR> Hello I'm a bit late
<Fikret_TR> When will start "Ubuntu in Education" topic
<Raj> hello everyone
<nigelb> Hi, this is the classroom channel.  THere are no sessions now.  Please see topic for schedule.  Open week sessions start in ~5 hours
<Fikret_TR> When will start "ubuntu in education" topic
<nigelb> Fikret_TR: Hi, this is the classroom channel.  THere are no sessions now.  Please see topic for schedule.  Open week sessions start in ~5 hours
<Fikret_TR> Nigelb: Thanks. I see. 5 hour later start
<nigelb> More like 4.5 hours now
<stnv> where can I check logs of the channel from the past  ?
<head_victim> stnv: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom#Logs/Transcripts
<stnv> thanks
<head_victim> No worries
<jcastro> 5 minutes until Ask Mark!
<sebsebseb> jcastro: yeah
<sebsebseb> yep
<ssj6akshat> sooo excited
<thiebaude> i cant wait,lol
<jcastro> In the meantime, feast on this: http://blog.canonical.com/?p=446
<sebsebseb> jcastro: without just going on the link, whats that about?
<jcastro> :)
<jcastro> ok some quick ground rules
<jcastro> I'll be handling the questions
<jcastro> as you can expect, this gets a little busy
<jcastro> so if your question is easily googleable "ie. what year did you go into space?" then I'll skip it
<jcastro> if the information is easily googleable in existing ubuntu things I'll skip it "How do I set up dns?"
<jcastro> other than that, remember we have one hour, and a bunch of people asking, so please try to make each one a good question!
<jcastro> logs of past Ask Marks are in the link in the topic
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || UOW Survey: http://is.gd/fZlwL || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Ask Mark - Instructors: sabdfl
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2010/10/14/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<jcastro> sabdfl: Welcome, please introduce yourself!
<jcastro> and then we'll begin!
<sabdfl> hi all!
<sabdfl> very glad to be here
<sabdfl> looking fwd to your questions
<jcastro> sabdfl: people are already wondering about http://blog.canonical.com/?p=446
<sabdfl> congrats and thanks to everyone who helped build 10.10, it was a tight but very well-run cycle
<jcastro> if you want to kick it off talking about unity and utouch I think that would be a nice way to start things
<sabdfl> okdokey
<sabdfl> 2 years ago we had a flood of PC manufacturers wanting us to help them build their own OS's
<sabdfl> everyone wanted a Linux
<sabdfl> and they wanted them all to be different
<sabdfl> and they wanted them all to be built on the core of Ubuntu
<sabdfl> we did engage with some of them
<sabdfl> but we saw that world graudally fragmenting, and that path wasn't going to make linux a world class, strong competitor
<sabdfl> to the established proprietary platforms
<sabdfl> so we decided to put all of our own effort into a focused designed and engineered UI for netbooks
<sabdfl> that started with UNR
<sabdfl> which evolved (with a clean sheet at one point) into Unity
<sabdfl> it's come together quite well for 10.10, we didn't get it all done as we hoped and there are issues on certain hardware
<sabdfl> but feedback is generally that people love the design and direction
<sabdfl> want bugs fixed
<sabdfl> and want it to work on all the hardware possible
<sabdfl> so, that will be our focus in 11.04
<sabdfl> also
<sabdfl> we're starting to see a new generation of mouse, essentially, that brings touch to netbooks too
<sabdfl> there wasn't any great open source touch framework anywhere
<sabdfl> and we have a view on touch beyond basic touch, towards "gesture languages"
<sabdfl> which nobody else was really tackling
<sabdfl> so
<sabdfl> uTouch
<sabdfl> the beginnings of that are in 10.10
<sabdfl> it will evolve for 11.04, and it will get easier to integrate with normal apps
<sabdfl> so, you should be zooming and scrolling with touch in 11.04 all over the place
<sabdfl> we'll also integrate window management and touch
<sabdfl> which is pretty slick to see in action
<sabdfl> the video gives you a taste
<sabdfl> how's that for an intro?
<jcastro> Great, on with the questions
<ClassBot> autif1 asked: What is the future of my favorite OS with embedded devices? Specifically - the guru plug and the sheeva plug - these are ARM based computers.
<sabdfl> ARM is now a fully supported architecture in Ubuntu
<sabdfl> the ARM ecosystem is coming together in something called Linaro, and Canonical is very much part of that
<sabdfl> Linaro is a forum to get stuff done, not a consortium or a new distro
<sabdfl> it's where we can set a roadmap for a unified ARM kernel, and set the pace for the ARM toolchain
<sabdfl> in 10.10, for example, the whole of Ubuntu is built with GCC that includes patches from ARM
<sabdfl> that makes everyone's life a little better, but a little more complicated
<sabdfl> it helps get those patches upstream faster, because they've been exercised at Ubuntu-scale
<sabdfl> which is good
<sabdfl> so, you can count on ARM support in 11.04 and the foreseeable future
<sabdfl> next!
<jcastro> !y
<ClassBot> Pendulum asked: Today is the 41st annual World Standards Day with this year's being focused on Accessibility standards. Are there plans to improve Ubuntu's accessibility and to bring things like the Ubuntu website in line with web accessibility standards?
<sabdfl> yes, accessibility is important, please file bugs where we let you down on that front
<sabdfl> for 11.04, a11y is one concentrated push for the Unity team, for example
<sabdfl> we need all the help we can get, though
<sabdfl> there's no commercial case for it, we do it because we think it's important
<sabdfl> commercial engagements related to it would help, and folks on the team who are interested can make a big, big difference
<sabdfl> next!
<ClassBot> IdleOne asked: Hey Mark! I wanted to ask about the Code of Conduct and when we will be seeing translated versions for the rest of the world to be able to read and sign in theyre own language?
<sabdfl> good question
<sabdfl> i don't know, but i'd like to hear flacoste's view, he leads the LP team
<sabdfl> i suspect the main issue is prioritisation of that in LP
<sabdfl> but LP is open source, so....
<sabdfl> also
<sabdfl> we should generalise that feature, so teams can have things like service level agreements and can ask people to commit to them
<sabdfl> next!
<ClassBot> nisshh asked: is anything further happening with 'Windicators'?
<sabdfl> it's in the queue
<sabdfl> just not a top priority, with everything else moving on
<sabdfl> i'd like to see it, but i'm not going to force it when i know we have other things to juggle
<sabdfl> we already have the AppIndicators protocol
<sabdfl> all we need is a variant of that to associate the indicator with a window
<sabdfl> and a plugin for (your favourite window manager) to agree to render the indicator
<sabdfl> next!
<ClassBot> ssj6akshat asked: Is Canonical profitable yet, or How much time more until it is?
<sabdfl> no, and some :-)
<sabdfl> it's important that Ubuntu have a strong commercial footing
<sabdfl> that gives people confidence in the future of the platform
<sabdfl> it helps build the base of investment in the distro
<sabdfl> and Canonical is a good partner to our community, I believe, so Canonical's health is good for the community too
<sabdfl> we chose to take on multiple things: servers, desktops, ARM
<sabdfl> which creates contention and slows down the march to profitability
<sabdfl> but it also makes Ubuntu more valuable as a cohesive platform
<sabdfl> and i'm still confident we will break through on each of those fronts
<sabdfl> next!
<ClassBot> mhall119 asked: What is Project Harmony?
<sabdfl> Harmony is an effort to simplify the forest of contribution agreements into a few, well thought through trees
<sabdfl> at the moment, there are literally hundreds of contribution agreements (also called copyright assignment agreements, because amongst other things, that's usually what they involve)
<sabdfl> i believe contribution agreements are really important to stimulating a healthy ecosystem of corporate involvement in the long tail of open source
<sabdfl> they are not important for the linux kernel, which will always be cool and sexy and in many cases mission critical for so many companies and individuals you will always have a flood of contribution
<sabdfl> but they are important for many of the things we want to be there, in quality and to "just work"
<sabdfl> i worry that this is badly understood by the broader community
<sabdfl> there are some myths about open source
<sabdfl> most of the work is done by folks who have a genuine commercial interest in seeing it done
<sabdfl> in many cases, that interest is tangential to the ownership of the code
<sabdfl> but in many cases, it's not
<sabdfl> for example, compare Qt and Gtk
<sabdfl> Qt has a contribution agreement, Gtk doesn't
<sabdfl> for a while, back in the bubble, Sun, Red Hat, Ximian and many other companies threw money at Gtk
<sabdfl> it grew and improved very quickly
<sabdfl> then they lost interest, and it has stagnated
<sabdfl> Qt was owned by Trolltech
<sabdfl> it was open source (GPL) but because of the contribution agreement they had many options
<sabdfl> including proprietary licensing, which is just fine with me alongside the GPL
<sabdfl> and later, because they owned Qt completely, they were an attractive acquisition for Nokia
<sabdfl> all in all, the Qt ecosystem benefitted
<sabdfl> and the Gtk ecosystem hasn't
<sabdfl> so
<sabdfl> one of the problems with contribution agreements is that they never had a strong lead
<sabdfl> GPL, CC both had clear leadership
<sabdfl> and become widely adopted
<sabdfl> we've gathered the legal counsel of lots of the top open source companies
<sabdfl> we've looked at hundreds of contribution agreements
<sabdfl> most, the vast majority, of them look very similar
<sabdfl> they talk about copyright, patents, and code
<sabdfl> but because they were all written by different lawyers who "just wanted something that works for them", they aren't general
<sabdfl> Harmony should produce one, or two, general contribution agreements
<sabdfl> perhaps with options, like some of the main open content / code licenses
<sabdfl> that way, when you get to a project, if they have a "standard" agreement, you know quickly whether it's OK for you or not
<sabdfl> i don't actually think anybody who has found a bug in X and made a patch has said "oh, I'm not going to contribute it because I believe in the GPL and they are under the MIT license"
<sabdfl> and similarly, i think contribution is the right thing to do when you participate in a project that requests it
<sabdfl> there are some exceptions, in the case of things like plugins which could be whole works in their own right
<sabdfl> but if you're making a patch to someone else's codebase, and they own the whole right to that codebase
<sabdfl> the generous, and imo right thing to do is to contribute the patch in a way which does not change their rights, or yours
<sabdfl> which is under a contribution agreement
<sabdfl> we've signed many of them, we have a policy that we always do
<sabdfl> only exception ever was a weird, nasty agreement by some company i'd never heard of that said something impossible
<sabdfl> which we declined, and i think they fixed
<sabdfl> so that's Harmony
<sabdfl> next!
<ClassBot> ssj6akshat asked: What do you think about OMG! Ubuntu! ?
<sabdfl> rocks
<sabdfl> next!
<ClassBot> ean5533 asked: Hardware issues aside, has the response to Unity been mostly positive? Would you choose another direction if you could go back in time?
<sabdfl> it's been flattered, critiqued and emulated, in equal measure ;-)
<sabdfl> all are important, i think
<sabdfl> the flattery is nice - people like that it's clean, the pieces fit well together, layout and space are considered
<sabdfl> the critique is a very good guide to where we need to direct effort
<sabdfl> performance on GL
<sabdfl> fallbaks where the hardware or drivers are not sufficient
<sabdfl> the design decisions we made around file access need careful testing and iteration
<sabdfl> and the emulation, well, that's the sincerest form of flattery
<sabdfl> and perhaps it's the only way we could realistically have helped those projects which embrace our ideas, after they work
<sabdfl> because sometimes you just can't convince folsk any other way than to Just Do It
<sabdfl> next!
<ClassBot> sebsebseb asked: Will 11.04 be using Gnome 3's  Gnome Shell by default in the desktop version?
<sabdfl> we deferred Gnome3 adoption from Maverick, and with retrospect and hindsight i'm very glad we did
<sabdfl> we're reviewing the status now in prep for UDS
<sabdfl> testing with users and chatting with developers
<sabdfl> we need to settle the question before the end of UDS
<sabdfl> next!
<ClassBot> sebsebseb asked: Favourite Ubuntu release before 10.04 and why?
<sabdfl> Dapper Drake. It set our course for LTS's and being a whole platform.
<sabdfl> next!
<ClassBot> mobster asked: Why Kubuntu is getting less love?? For example no software center and ubuntu one?
<sabdfl> because it would cost farmore than i can justify
<sabdfl> i do love the kubuntu community, and spend what some would consider an unreasonable amount on doing certain things twice
<sabdfl> there is no philanthropic benefit to having TWO free desktops out there
<sabdfl> that won't help more folks embrace free software
<sabdfl> neither is there much commercial benefit in having two free desktops
<sabdfl> so, ask yourself, on what basis do you feel that we're letting you down?
<sabdfl> on what basis do you feel you have a right to expect something else?
<sabdfl> i admire KDE and Kubuntu, I enjoy using KDE occasionally and hanging out on #kubuntu-devel
<sabdfl> and i like the people, except occasionally the odd super-self-interested muppet who expects me to singlehandedly make his wet dreams of technology kfuturism come true
<sabdfl> and that's that
<sabdfl> next!
<ClassBot> danyR asked: About the new ubuntu iconset, any updates? I've read somewhere that some inicial sketeches were supposed to be launched, is it still planned to 11.04?
<sabdfl> i don't think we will achieve it for 11.04, no
<sabdfl> it's a big program
<sabdfl> and we haven't yet started
<sabdfl> but i know, if we don't start for 11.10 we won't finish by 12.04
<sabdfl> and i really want it done by 12.04 LTS
<sabdfl> next!
<ClassBot> ssj6akshat asked: What motivated you to invest in making free software and debian user friendly?
<sabdfl> hmm
<sabdfl> "because the possibility was out there"
<sabdfl> you know the answer to the question, "why do you climb dangerously high mountains"?
<sabdfl> "because they are there"
<sabdfl> life is something we get to use up, once and once only
<sabdfl> we should do the boldest, scariest, most important thing with our lives that we can dream
<sabdfl> i felt free software could be all the things we want ubuntu to be: easy to use, free of charge, sustainable, beautiful
<sabdfl> but nobody else seemed to be interested in getting it there
<sabdfl> and it wasn't going to happen by itself
<sabdfl> it needed a community that was single-minded about THOSE specific goals
<sabdfl> not the things that people seemed to care about
<sabdfl> nothing wrong with the kernel community, or the X community, or the other distro communities
<sabdfl> i just didn't see anybody who was caring about usability, people, beauty, quality on the desktop
<sabdfl> if you think something is possible
<sabdfl> and good
<sabdfl> and you have the time and resources
<sabdfl> and nothing more important to do
<sabdfl> then you should do it
<sabdfl> and thousands of people seem to agree, becuase they help build it
<sabdfl> next!
<ClassBot> bilalakhtar asked: Gnome Shell uses a system of notification that is somewhat similar to notify-osd. When Ubuntu would begin using gnome-shell, would you like notify-osd to be used or the notification system of gnome-shell?
<sabdfl> notify-osd
<sabdfl> we designed and built it in good faith
<sabdfl> it's compatible with the freedesktop.org standards
<sabdfl> we did it long before anybody else seemed to care about reinventing notifications
<sabdfl> we expressed a willingness to collaborate around API's when suddenly they did
<sabdfl> now we have good code that works, with lots of apps that use it
<sabdfl> we'll stick to it
<sabdfl> next!
<ClassBot> highvoltage asked: Why did Canonical ditch the LPI, and will there be any discounts for the new training for long-time Ubuntu contributors (or ubuntu members)? Currently the server training is more than ÃÂ£1000, which is a bit steep for an individual for an online course.
<sabdfl> highvoltage: there was little demand for individuals getting their own certification
<sabdfl> and more for something specific to ubuntu that companies could be confident would help their sysadmin teams be productive in an environment where ubuntu was being deployed
<sabdfl> i'd like to change the forces of gravity and economics
<sabdfl> occasionally, we tweak their noses
<sabdfl> but in due course they reassert themselves ;-)
<sabdfl> next!
<ClassBot> SergioMeneses asked: Is there an strategy from Canonical to increase local commercial presence in emerging economies (and not via partners)?
<sabdfl> yes
<sabdfl> we have an office in Shanghai
<sabdfl> we have employees in India and Brazil
<sabdfl> and South Africa is starting to embrace Ubuntu for education (highvoltage must have had something to do with that ;-))
<sabdfl> and i believe in that mission
<sabdfl> but we can't be everywhere, doing everything
<sabdfl> partners are very important to us
<sabdfl> and where we have the right partner, we are often more effective than we could reasonably expect to be doing everything ourselves
<sabdfl> next!
<ClassBot> helger asked: What do you think about services like Flattr? Have you considered integrating something like that into the Ubuntu Software Center?
<sabdfl> they are very cool, and yes
<sabdfl> next!
<ClassBot> alecu asked: is there a plan for process isolation for apps installed from untrusted sources (ie, universe, propietary stuff from the software center)? iOS and sugar from the olpc already have something like this.
<sabdfl> alecu: using, say, something like AppArmor?
<sabdfl> i like the idea!
<sabdfl> you should chat with the right folks at UDS about that, if you can come
<sabdfl> or raise it on #ubuntu-devel
<sabdfl> cc mdz ;-)
<sabdfl> next!
<sabdfl> can't be
<ClassBot> mistrynitesh asked: what are the plans for India?
<sabdfl> have we ...
<sabdfl> ok
<sabdfl> We got the new Rupee symbol in the 10.10 ttf-ubuntu-font-family package
<jcastro> (sorry, question mix up)
<sabdfl> first OS in the world to support it natively
<sabdfl> high-five to sladen and DM for that
<sabdfl> I think India has the potential to harness FLOSS in a very potent way
<sabdfl> there is little legacy dependency
<sabdfl> there is a substantial talent base
<sabdfl> the only thing that is required is very directed government policy
<sabdfl> that, however, is challenging in India
<sabdfl> countries like Brazil might well do better: they too have been experimenting with FLOSS
<sabdfl> and can more likely translate that thinking into concrete policy that encourages business, universities, schools and government organisations to use FLOSS
<sabdfl> so, it's a race to see who is smarter and more organised about this
<sabdfl> next!
<ClassBot> danyR asked: What's the plan with indicator-network and indicator-datetime? Is natty going to be the first linux distro ever to ship without a notification area?
<sabdfl> without a legacy systray, i hope so
<sabdfl> we are building a new GNOME UI for connection-manager, the Intel-Nokia replacement for NetworkManager
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<sabdfl> we'll have to see, in the final analysis, how it pans out
<sabdfl> but connman has many advantages in design and testability
<sabdfl> NM has more road behind it
<sabdfl> i use the connman bits, and they work well for me
<sabdfl> with some exceptions
<sabdfl> ad-hoc networks
<sabdfl> and i haven't had much success with 3G though i believe it works for some
<sabdfl> Google is using a derivative in ChromeOS
<sabdfl> so, i think it will be solid
<sabdfl> and i really like the design work MPT did on the indicator and settings, though it's taking time to implement
<sabdfl> next!
<ClassBot> popey asked: We often see figures for how many Ubuntu installs there are, 8 million here, 12 million there. Can you give us definitive (near enough) figures and tell us how you arrive at them? This would help dispell some naysayers who claim we're making these numbers up.
<sabdfl> no, i have no definitive answer
<sabdfl> there are stats
<sabdfl> but we can make those say whatever we want
<sabdfl> we just don't do any meaningful tracking or registration
<sabdfl> anyway, what matters to me is that our users are delighted, whoever they are and however many there are
<sabdfl> i do believe we have more than either of those numbers
<sabdfl> but i don't think anybody knows for sure, except maybe google, and they haven't said
<sabdfl> next!
<ClassBot> TLE asked: Any plans on changing the one-cd strategy, to get room for more standard tools, like say a demon administration tool and a firewall?
<sabdfl> no
<sabdfl> it's a good discipline
<sabdfl> we need to get better at helping people find things like those tools of yours, after they install
<sabdfl> and forcing less on them up front
<sabdfl> next!
<ClassBot> BigWhale asked: So, we started brainstorming for Ubuntu event on Balkans in couple of years. What would it take to get you for a keynote speaker? :)
<sabdfl> i'm a pushover, except when i'm impossible
<sabdfl> so just ask!
<sabdfl> if it works, i'll come along
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<sabdfl> but i bet you can get plenty of entertaining speakers without me
<sabdfl> there are much better speakers in the ubuntu community and commercial ecosystem
<sabdfl> i did enjoy a week in Croatia once
<sabdfl> be nice to be back in the area
<sabdfl> nexy!
<sabdfl> next, even ;-)
<jcastro> time for one more
<jcastro> waiting for a good one
<sabdfl> hard one
<ClassBot> danyR asked: I've been following Ubuntu for years. I've also been following the blogosphere for years. I can say, without doubts, that Maverick is the most successful release ever. What's next?
<sabdfl> Natty!
<sabdfl> next!
<jcastro> (Protip: See what's cooking here: https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/sprints/uds-n)
<ClassBot> doctormo asked: Do you consider Ubuntu to be a product of the UK?
<sabdfl> no
<sabdfl> Earth
<sabdfl> barely
<sabdfl> next!
<ClassBot> nigelb asked: What do we do at the end of exhausting a - z for naming? ;)
<jcastro> (this will be the last one)
<sabdfl> cyrillic, anybody?
<sabdfl> thanks all
<jcastro> thanks, Mark!
<sabdfl> great questions, appreciate the support of the team organising
<sabdfl> you all do a wonderful job with Open Week
<sabdfl> akgraner and many others, hugs
<sabdfl> cheerio
<jcastro> alright, I hope you guys are ready for xubuntu with charlie-tca
<charlie-tca> Thank you very much for that session, sabdfl. It is always great to be able to listen to you this way.
<jcastro> take 2 minutes, smoke if you got em!
<sabdfl> yw, have fun here :-)
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || UOW Survey: http://is.gd/fZlwL || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Xubuntu-Alive and Well - Instructors: charlie-tca
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2010/10/14/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<charlie-tca> Well, I must say, that is one hard session to follow. I hope I can do half as well!
<charlie-tca> I'm Charlie Kravetz, known as charlie-tca on irc and the mailing lists. I am Xubuntu Quality Assurance Lead and Xubuntu Project Lead.
<charlie-tca> We are going to talk a bit about Xubuntu. We will take your questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, and will have a few minutes at the end to answer questions you hold on to
<charlie-tca> Feel free to ask questions at any time.
<charlie-tca> Xubuntu is Ubuntu with the Xfce desktop. Xfce emphasizes conservation of system resources, which makes Xubuntu an excellent choice for any system, new or old.
<charlie-tca> As a ubuntu derivative, Xubuntu maintains the same high standards and quality that Ubuntu has.
<charlie-tca> Xubuntu is an ideal candidate for older hardware or low-end machines, thin-client networks, or those who would like to get more performance out of their hardware.
<ClassBot> autif1 asked: Have you seen Lubuntu and what are your thoughts about it. It claims to have a smaller footprint than Xubuntu. Please comment on this aspect too.
<charlie-tca> Thank you for asking that. I will do my best to give an honest answer.
<charlie-tca> I do not use Lubuntu. I think I installed it once, to look, a long time ago.
<charlie-tca> I do read the reviews and articles about all the distros, though. Lubuntu rates quite high.
<charlie-tca> According to phoronix, who does a lot of testing, Xubuntu is about 30% lighter in resources than Ubuntu. Lubuntu is about 30% lighter than Xubuntu.
<charlie-tca> So, based on that, yes, it has a smaller footprint.
<charlie-tca> We will not downsize Xubuntu just to say we are smaller, or we can run older equipment than someone else.
<charlie-tca> The target audience for Xubuntu is users who are interested in having a modestly light weight, slim, fast desktop experience.
<charlie-tca> Those users should be able to retain the usability and functionality that is required to provide an easy to use desktop environment.
<charlie-tca> <sujiths80> question:so basically these OS are designed for some older hardwares?
<charlie-tca> Lubuntu is, as I understand it, aimed at older hardware. Xubuntu is aimed at, as stated above, anyone who would like a fast desktop experience.
<charlie-tca> Xubuntu works good on most hardware! Those with newer hardware will not see as great a difference.
<ClassBot> sebsebseb asked: What about Fluxbox and other lite waight window managers, use those at all?
<charlie-tca> Okay. Let's get down to basics now. I am not going to address all the other distros today. I would really prefer to talk about Xubuntu. that is the distribution that I use. I also use Ubuntu on occasion.
<charlie-tca> I have installed Xubuntu on my PII, 400MHz cpu with 256MB ram, and it works! I do not test all the other so-called lightweight distributions out there.
<charlie-tca> Xubuntu is the Xfce-based distribution with a native 64-bit architecture. We produce both a 32-bit and 64-bit versions.
<charlie-tca> And, since Xubuntu is a derivative of Ubuntu, we use the same repositories, and many of the same applications.
<charlie-tca> Those of us on the team really believe the stated minimums should be real! If we can't run what the minimums say, we question it.
<charlie-tca> Granted, we don't expect perfect performance from it, but the system should be usable.
<charlie-tca> If, for example, I am running that PII, I do not expect it to run openoffice and firefox at the same time. I would expect it to run firefox with just a couple of tabs, though.
<charlie-tca> I should be able to close firefox and run abiword and gnumeric, perhaps.
<charlie-tca> As the hardware increases, we would expect the performance to increase.
<charlie-tca> New users are often surprised to find that Xubuntu includes a number of gnome applications.
<charlie-tca> These are included simply because if an application works well, and is considered lightweight, it fits.
<charlie-tca> Any application can be included, and it does not matter if it starts with gnome, xfce, or anything other letters.
<ClassBot> toros asked: are there any plans to support Ubuntu One in Xubuntu?
<charlie-tca> And that brings this up! thanks, toros.
<charlie-tca> Yes, Ubuntu One is supported using ubuntuone-client from the repositories.
<charlie-tca> No, we do not specifically support it, but it does work with Thunar.
<charlie-tca> Also, there is now a plugin for Exaile for UbuntuOne music
<ClassBot> sebsebseb asked: For me I see Xubuntu  as basically a cut down version of Ubuntu/Gnome2, since they look quite similar, what do you think about this?
<charlie-tca> thanks again for a great question, sebsebseb.
<charlie-tca> Yes, they look similar, with two panels and a desktop. So does Kubuntu, with just one panel, and every other Ubuntu-based distribution I have seen.
<charlie-tca> A desktop is a background with icons. That stays the same. The background does change, as does the functionality.
<charlie-tca> Xubuntu does not specifically focus on new users or users migrating from Windows; alternative distributions such as Ubuntu may be more appropriate for first time Linux users
<charlie-tca> Ubuntu with its Gnome desktop is very simple to use. You have limited ability to change options, and that is a good thing for some users.
<charlie-tca> Xubuntu gives you choices.
<charlie-tca> We do not aim at the new Windows to Linux user, (especially first time Linux users who may be particularly at risk of experiencing difficulties due to lack of general experience).
<charlie-tca> they need that simplicity that Ubuntu offers them.
<charlie-tca> We do think we offer the more experienced greater choices and ability to customize.
<charlie-tca> Let me continue now, and see if I can define this better.
<charlie-tca> Xubuntu does not exclusively target users with low, modest, or high powered machines but instead targets the entire spectrum with a strong focus on enabling lower end machines.
<charlie-tca> Xubuntu's extra responsiveness and speed, among other positive traits, can be appreciated by all users regardless of their hardware.
<charlie-tca> Are there other applications that could provide the same functionality? Most definitely.
<charlie-tca> We are using applications that are light in resources, and relatively easy to configure for most users.
<charlie-tca> You are welcome to use other applications if you desire.
<charlie-tca> As a matter of fact, we do routinely check our applictions as well as others to see if they still belong in Xubuntu.
<charlie-tca> A few of the more well known alternatives which could make the desktop a bit more lightweight are:
<charlie-tca> and a disclaimer is needed here - Xubuntu as a team does not officially endorse any of these in particular. They are being given as examples only
<charlie-tca> chromium - an open source browser - http://www.chromium.org/Home
<charlie-tca> claws-mail - a very nice mail client with many options - http://www.claws-mail.org/
<charlie-tca> gmusicbrowser - An open-source jukebox for large collections of mp3/ogg/flac/mpc/ape files, written in perl - http://gmusicbrowser.org/
<charlie-tca> gpicviewer - A Simple and Fast Image Viewer for X - http://lxde.sourceforge.net/gpicview/
<charlie-tca> geeqie - a lightweight Gtk+ based image viewer for Unix like operating systems. - http://geeqie.sourceforge.net/
<charlie-tca> midori - a lightweight browser in development by Xfce. For more information see http://software.twotoasts.de/index.php?/pages/midori_summary.html
<charlie-tca> Pino - a simple and fast X11 client for Twitter and Identi.ca - http://pino-app.appspot.com/
<charlie-tca> Any or all of these can be installed by the user. Please check the repositories before downloading or compiling applications.
<charlie-tca> Please note that the above applications are not presented as approved or recommended by myself or Xubuntu. There are given here as examples.
<charlie-tca> Xubuntu does not install these applications by default at this time. Why not?
<charlie-tca> Since we have limited developer resources available, we use applications maintained by Ubuntu that fit our needs. The application must also have a good user GUI, if possible.
<charlie-tca> The more complicated it is to configure the application for use, the less likely it will fit the requirement.
<charlie-tca> Some of the above are still in development, and are not yet released as a stable version. That, too, must be considered before including the application in a stable operating system.
<charlie-tca> We are very thankful to have the Ubuntu developers assisting us in maintaining applications. Without their help, it would be much harder to maintain Xubuntu.
<charlie-tca> At this time, I would like to hit on some of the key points in Xubuntu 10.10, otherwise known as Maverick Meerkat.
<charlie-tca> New Features:
<charlie-tca> Xfce 4.6.2, which is primarily a bug-fix release.
<charlie-tca> Xubuntu 10.10 includes the Exaile 0.3.2 music player to make enjoying podcasts, streaming radio, audio books, and music library easier than ever before.
<charlie-tca> New to Xubuntu 10.10 is the movie player, Parole, which replaces the Totem Movie Player on the Xubuntu desktop to provide a more improved movie viewing experience.
<charlie-tca> We have also changed from the gnome-system-monitor to xfce4-taskmanager. We believe this provides similar, excellent functionality while being lighter on resources.
<charlie-tca> To allow for a more resource concious CD/DVD burning experience, Xfburn has replaced Brasero in Xubuntu 10.10.
<charlie-tca> Xubuntu also includes as default gimp, an application used for advanced picture editing and retouching photos.
<charlie-tca> This application includes a large collection of professional-level editing tools and filters, similar to what is in PhotoShop.
<charlie-tca> Thunderbird is a lightweight mail/news/RSS client. It fits well with the fewer resources desired for Xubuntu, yet remains an easy to configure application for the new user.
<charlie-tca> We do include the ne Ubuntu Fonts, but, they are not the default Xubuntu font.
<charlie-tca> Any questions about Maverick?
<charlie-tca> Where we are heading from here:
<charlie-tca> The next release will be Natty Narwhal. Will there be major changes for Natty Narwhal? I really do not know at this time.
<ClassBot> highvoltage asked: will there be any xubuntu related sessions at UDS?
<charlie-tca> If there is interest in such sessions, yes. I have asked for input from the community for this.
<charlie-tca> Will Natty see Xfce 4.8? Only time will tell. Xfce developers have not completed their work at this time, and there is not a good release date yet.
<charlie-tca> If it is released in time, it will definitely be included in the next version of Xubuntu.
<charlie-tca> We owe a great deal of Xubuntu's success to the Ubuntu teamwork. Without Ubuntu leading the way, Xubuntu would not be where it is today.
<charlie-tca> We are an official unsupported derivative of Ubuntu. This means we can use the repositories and Ubuntu sources, but we receive no funding whatsoever.
<ClassBot> sebsebseb asked: How much do Xubuntu developers work with upstream XFCE?
<charlie-tca> We work very closely with upstream Xfce. We upstream most of the bugs that concern Xfce, and work with the developers to insure that they get fixed as soon as possible.
<charlie-tca> Thanks to the efforts of Xubuntu developers, Xfce 4.8 will have XRandR 1.2 support.
<charlie-tca> That is, the support is added to Xfce4-display-settings. This is a big step for Xfce.
<charlie-tca> Our volunteers are very passionate about Xubuntu.
<charlie-tca> They spend considerable time working to create the best possible Operating System they can, and the results do reflect that.
<charlie-tca> Its helps that the Ubuntu base is so awesome to work with in the first place, too.
<charlie-tca> I have explained what Xubuntu is, what it is designed for, and hopefully, cleared up some mis-conceptions too.
<charlie-tca> How/Where to start with the Xubuntu Team ?
<charlie-tca> Getting started with Xubuntu is easy and fun! For the average user, you can get help and support through either #xubuntu on Freenode or the xubuntu users mailing list at https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/xubuntu-users. We're a friendly bunch and enjoy helping folks :-)
<charlie-tca> Xubuntu comes ready to use on any equipment. It gives excellent performance with no loss of applications.
<charlie-tca> It would be really nice to clear up that idea that Xubuntu is "only" for old hardware. It works equally well on new hardware.
<charlie-tca> As part of one of the best, fastest growing distributions available, we welcome anyone who would like to assist in development, testing, and bug triage!
<charlie-tca> I see I am a few minutes early on finishing. Lets just take a small break?
<charlie-tca> Thank you all for being here.
<ClassBot> sebsebseb asked: I thought about if I should ask this or not, but decided to anyway.  Xubuntu is probably the most popular XFCE distro at the moment, but how would you feel if it suddenly became another distro that wasn't based on Ubuntu instead?
<charlie-tca> I do not actually see that happening. However, as long as it usable as it is now, that will work.
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<charlie-tca> Can it remain a functioning, easy to use operating system with a different base? Probably, but Ubuntu is the fastest growing, easiest to use Linux OS available today.
<charlie-tca> Being a part of the Ubuntu family does help maintain momentum, and we are fortunate to be a part of that family.
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || UOW Survey: http://is.gd/fZlwL || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Screencasting How-to - Instructors: duanedesign
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2010/10/14/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<duanedesign> hello everyone
<duanedesign> I am going to  be giving a session on doing screencasts
<duanedesign> Screencasts are a very useful tool for demonstrating software capabilities.
<duanedesign> There are many different ways to make screencasts and different applications you can use. I will show you one way and  will use as many default applications as possible.
<duanedesign> The applications you will need for making a screencast are:
<duanedesign> VirtualBox - virtualization enviroment. package: virtualbox-ose
<duanedesign> gtk-recordmydesktop - records desktop video/audio. packages: recordmydesktop gtk-recordmydesktop qt-recordmydesktoop
<duanedesign> recordmydesktop being the commandline utility and gtk, for gnome, and qt-recordmydesktop, for KDE, are GUIs for that commandline utility.
<duanedesign> audacity - recording and editing audio
<duanedesign> openoffice.org - for titles at the beginning and end of your screencast
<duanedesign> piTiVi = for editing video, combining audio and video and re-encoding to other formats.
<duanedesign> I like to recommended you use a virtualization environment.
<duanedesign> In a VM you can record your screencast from a default install. This way your custom themes, icons and setup will not confuse a user.
<duanedesign> A VM allows you to save snapshots. This make it easy to go back to your VM setup before the demo. Ideal for rehearsing your screencast as well as making it easy to keep a standard default install.
<duanedesign> If the intention is to demonstrate application usage and/or the host configuration is sufficiently similar to a standard install a VM is not necessary.
<duanedesign> The first step, after installing the appropriate software, is to make an outline.
<duanedesign> Decide exactly what it is you are wanting to show. Keep the videocasts short and focused. Cover only one topic in each videocast.
<duanedesign> After you have an outline, you will make a script. The script will cover what you want to say and do during the screencast.
<duanedesign> I have found the Gnome, and other style guides, help me write a script that is clear. concise and consistent. Though a lot of it is geared towards written documentation there is a lot of relevant stuff when it comes to grammar usage and terminology.
<duanedesign> Some examples of grammar usage would be, do not superfluous adverbs like simply, easily, quickly.  Do not apply emotion, desires, or opinions.  Avoid stuff like 'This app is awesome', instead maybe 'This app has helped me ...'
<duanedesign> Also the Style Guides help with some of the GUI terminology. Here is an example from the Gnome Style Guide showing you what different part of the windows are called.
<duanedesign> http://library.gnome.org/devel/gdp-style-guide/stable/preface-1.html.en
<duanedesign> . This helps create consistency across a wide range of resources.
<duanedesign> ensuring that we are all calling a radio button, a radio button and not confusing people
<duanedesign> Once you get your script done, You will want to rehearse the steps you are going to take. This is a good opportunity to develop and refine your script.
<duanedesign> To do this start a virtual machine running the operating system and application which is to be demonstrated.  Go through the software and practice the steps to be demonstrated. You might need to do this a couple of times until you are comfortable with the steps and you know the script very well.
<duanedesign> Once you are familiar with the steps you will be taking, it is time to record the screencast.
<duanedesign>  If the demo requires the installation of additional packages then to save time it can be preferable to setup the necessary repositories, download the necessary packages without installing them, then remove the repositories.
<duanedesign> This of course assumes that you want to show how to enable repositories and install software within the screencast. To download packages and not install them use apt-get with the -d option: apt-get -d packagename1 packagename2 ...
<duanedesign> Now I will go through the steps of recording the screencast.
<duanedesign> Start a virtual machine running the operating system and application which is to be demonstrated.
<duanedesign> Start a recording application to capture the contents of the virtual machine window.
<duanedesign> With recordmydesktop you can control it from the GUI or the commandline.
<duanedesign> I will mostly cover the GUI way of doing things
<duanedesign> If you are interested in using the commandline I suggest the command 'man recordmydesktop'. Additionally you can find an example command, and one i often use, at  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScreenCasts/RecordMyDesktop#Command%20Line
<duanedesign> With the GUI to record  either left-click the icon in the panel or click the record button in the main window
<duanedesign> main window - http://recordmydesktop.sourceforge.net/rug/p1_1a.php
<duanedesign> tray icon - http://recordmydesktop.sourceforge.net/rug/p1_1b.php
<duanedesign> If you do not want to capture the entire desktop there are three ways of selecting the area on which you will confine the recording.
<duanedesign> Using the preview thumbnail on the main window you can draw a window with the crosshairs. Using the âSelect Windowâ button and then select a window on your desktop. Using the âSelect Area on Screenâ function accessed by right-clicking on the panel icon.
<duanedesign> additional info on defining an area - http://recordmydesktop.sourceforge.net/rug/p1_2b.php
<duanedesign> now you will Go through the software and execute the steps you rehearsed.
<duanedesign> It is sometimes preferable to record the video first, and add in the audio later. If you're sufficiently able to multi task reading aloud instructions whilst doing them, then record audio and video together.
<duanedesign> doing them seperately though has some advantages
<duanedesign> When doing them together you have to do both parts perfect.
<duanedesign> Now Watch the screencast to ensure all is ok.
<duanedesign> If it  looks good add a 'intro', 'outro' slides to the start and end of the screencast.
<duanedesign> Again there are different ways to do this. I will show you one way
<duanedesign> Open OpenOffice Presentation. Make a slide containing the graphics and text you want. Maximise the presentation of the first (header) slide within the virtual machine. You can do this by running Slideshow -> Slideshow(f5) in OpenOfffice. Using the same process as you did for the main demo record 5-10 seconds. Repeat for the [footer] slide.
<duanedesign> !q
<duanedesign> msg ClassBot !q
<duanedesign> mick_laptop asked: so recordmydesktop is what you'd recommend (from the different apps  that exist). Why would you recommend that particular one (compared to others)? i thought  that project was abandoned - but i could be wrong.
<duanedesign> there are a lot of good apps out there for screencasts. record,ydesktop is just what i have always used.
<duanedesign> XVidCap is another good one
<duanedesign> i would be intrested to know if it is abandoned
<ClassBot> mick_laptop asked: so recordmydesktop is what you'd recommend (from the different apps that exist). Why would you recommend that particular one (compared to others)? i thought that project was abandoned - but i could be wrong.
<ClassBot> quietone asked: Should I be using virtualbox now? I don't know how. recordmydektop fails "Couldn't open PCM device hw:2,0"
<duanedesign> ok, slowly getting classbot figured out :)
<duanedesign> quietone change hw:2,0 too hw:0
<duanedesign> to*
<duanedesign> ok.
<duanedesign> if you are recording your audio and video seperately now, after making your intro and outro slides, would be a good time to record it
<duanedesign> audacity is what i use for that
<duanedesign> after you got your audio you would combine the audio, video and intro/outro slides
<duanedesign> Ubuntu now has a movie editor, Pitivi, installed by default.
<ClassBot> mick_laptop asked: CrazyLemon asked: "i recorded a video last night about ubuntu 10.10 installation.. it was about 22min of video..and after  10min the sound went off ..any ideas/suggestions ?
<duanedesign> hmm, not off the top of my head i wopuld not
<duanedesign> you can get the pitivi manual here - http://www.pitivi.org/manual/
<duanedesign> an overview of the process:
<duanedesign> Use the Import Clips button in Pitivi to bring your screencast and the header and footer video clips you did into the project. Then you simply click on the clip thumbnails in the upper left of your screen and drag them from the Clip Library to the Timeline. Do this for each clip placing them sequentially in the timeline. When you are ready to output the video, select 'Render Project'. In the Render Project Window click 'Modify' T
<duanedesign> Check the combined audio/video/intro/outro for errors/glitches/sync problems.
<duanedesign> Optionally encode/compress screencast to other formats.
<duanedesign> that is one way to do screencasts and one set of tools
<duanedesign> as one of the questions brought up there are different apps then recordmydesktop.
<duanedesign> kazam is one that was mentioned to me recently http://launchpad.net/kazam
<duanedesign> i have also created a script that uses ffmpeg and parec
<duanedesign> you can find the script and instructions and tips on how to use it on my blog http://okiebuntu.homelinux.com/blog/?p=175
<duanedesign> if you have an interest in making screencasts we have a Screencast Team in the community
<duanedesign> we would love to have you
<duanedesign> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScreencastTeam/
<duanedesign> you can also find an outline of the steps i went over here on the Screencast Team wiki
<ClassBot> quietone asked: what is parec?
<duanedesign> pulse audio record
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<duanedesign> the script also auto magically encodes the video into a couple different formats. avi, ogv, flv
<ClassBot> alucardni asked: Can we record screencast in other languages (Spanish in my case) for the Screencast Team?
<duanedesign> that is a great question
<duanedesign> i am a huge fan of making resources available to as many people as possible
<duanedesign> alucardni: if you want you can email me and we can talk more about it. Or you can find me in #ubuntu screencast
<duanedesign> #ubuntu-screencast
<duanedesign> but i would definetly like to see multilingual screencasts!
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<duanedesign> ok any last questions?
<duanedesign> you can also find me, like i said, in #ubuntu-screencast and/or you can email me. duane design at ubuntu dot com
<duanedesign> thank you everyone for lending me your eyeballs :)
 * highvoltage taps mic... is this thing on?
<highvoltage> ah, great :)
<highvoltage> hi everyone! welcome to the Ubuntu in Education openweek session
<highvoltage> I'll be standing in for Belinda Lopez, who you may know as "dinda" on IRC
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || UOW Survey: http://is.gd/fZlwL || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Ubuntu in Education - Instructors: highvoltage
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2010/10/14/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<highvoltage> she's out spreading the Ubuntu word to educational institutions in Malaysia
<highvoltage> so she wasn't able to present this specific session.
<highvoltage> So, what is Ubuntu in Education? What is Edubuntu? What's the difference and why should anyone care?
<highvoltage> I'm going to attempt to answer these questions today, and also your answers as asked in #ubuntu-classroon-chat
<highvoltage> I haven't prepared much for this session, so if we run out of questions we'll just finish early and have some cake and tea :)
<highvoltage> I thought it might be a good idea to provide some background on myself and where I come from, maybe it will be easier to relate the information if I do that
<highvoltage> a few years ago, I planned to get some old computers into schools to teach kids basic Linux administration and maybe even some python and scripting
<highvoltage> I posted to the local linux users group and got in touch with a non-profit which was gearing up to also receive large amounts of donated computers and provide them to schools
<highvoltage> long story short, I ended up contracting and later on working for that non-profit, and we ended up installing more than 300 computer labs in South Africa
<highvoltage> they ran LTSP so it was quite easy and fast to set up, and also to educate teachers on how to set up everything themselves
<highvoltage> on some special occasion days (like Youth Day in South Africa), we managed to even set up 10 computer labs in a single day
<highvoltage> using only teachers from existing schools who decided to volunteer and help other schools, along with some other regular volunteers we had
<highvoltage> the focus in that project was also more towards education, as in, curriculum aligned, as apposed to teaching IT skills as I originally wanted to
<highvoltage> still, it was a great project to be involved in, and it was awesome begin able to empower people to do things for themselves.
<highvoltage> we expanded the project later to some NGO organisations, and also 2 adult prisons
<highvoltage> the prisons were quite interesting since in South Africa, inmates generally don't have internet access
<highvoltage> and when they do, it's very, very limited and monitored
<highvoltage> our solution at the time were mostly targeted at kids, so we we're a bit nervous how adults were going to respond to it
<highvoltage> to our surprise, the custom ubuntu system we put together actually worked quite well. some of the people in the prison who couldn't read started to play the kids games, the inmates started helping each other and the literacy improved
<highvoltage> it was quite interesting, although I moved to more commercial projects afterwards and lost touch with what was happening in those projects afterwards
<highvoltage> today I work for a company that provides large scale Ubuntu and LTSP solutions, and quite a number of our clients are big schools.
<highvoltage> In my experiences Ubuntu is really a great platform for schools and education. It's so much safer to use, it's less work to maintain, and it gives you a *lot* out of the box.
<highvoltage> I also got involved in the Edubuntu project, which I'll try not to speak *too* much about, and rather leave some space for more questions.
<highvoltage> Edubuntu maintains the educational packages in Ubuntu, and also tries to get in new packages
<highvoltage> The Edubuntu project also puts together the Edubuntu iso disc, which is an Ubuntu system that installs the packages that the Edubuntu team is involved with
<highvoltage> we're constantly working on improving Edubuntu, with the goal that it will be a great general all-purpose educational system for homes and classrooms alike
<highvoltage> with the last release we made some good strides, and we plan to shake things up a bit for the next release by implementing some new things that will make it much more flexible and more suitable for more kinds of environments
<highvoltage> I'll blabber about Edubuntu just a *bit* more :)
<highvoltage> the project went through a bit of a dive a few releases ago where we lost most of our contributors due to some politics in the project
<highvoltage> in the meantime we've been rebuilding the project, and basically started from scratch
<highvoltage> edubuntu is now not about a system, about software, but about the people involved and the things that they do
<highvoltage> that's why you'll often see us say things like "edubuntu is a group of people..." in our descriptions instead of "edubuntu is a system designed to blah blah blah"
<highvoltage> about two months ago we launched a new Edubuntu website, it's still very much work in progress,
<highvoltage> but the next phase it to make it a lot more personal
<highvoltage> we want to include stories, pictures and videos of people out there who made things work and who managed to do some interesting and cool stuff with Ubuntu in education
<highvoltage> dinda started a wiki page where schools could list their details, I'll probably be contacting some of these schools and aksing them if they'd like to share their story for out site
<highvoltage> this list is currently at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Education/UbuntuSchools
<highvoltage> also, if you're interested in the Edubuntu website, you could find it here: http://edubuntu.org/
<highvoltage> we also started twitter, idetnica and a youtube profile with the launching of the new website
<highvoltage> on our youtube channel we favourited some video uploads related to education and ubuntu in schools that some of you might find interesting: http://www.youtube.com/user/edubuntuproject
<highvoltage> we'd like to expand that channel drastically over the next year or so. we'll need some help on that though :)
<highvoltage> the edubuntu screenshots page also featues some of the educational tools available in Ubuntu, that are also shipped with the Edubuntu system
<highvoltage> stgraber, who just joined the channel, is also involved with the edubuntu project
<highvoltage> any questions or comments at this stage?
 * stgraber waves
<highvoltage> For those who asked questions, the bot didn't notify me so I'll just need a second to go sift them out :)
<highvoltage> 13:08 < quietone> QUESTION: what is LTSP?
<highvoltage> LTSP is short for Linux Terminal Server Project, it allows you to install Ubuntu (or Edubuntu) or pretty much any Linux distribution
<highvoltage> on one single machine
<highvoltage> typically a good server machine
<highvoltage> and then you connect a series of diskless machines that boots from it over the network
<ClassBot> mhall119 asked: How much does it cost a school, on average, when you do one of these deployments?
<highvoltage> the project that I worked on in 2003-2006 specifically did it on as much of a shoestring budget as possible
<highvoltage> it's an extreme example, but it gives an idea of what can be done
<highvoltage> for a typical computer lab, consisting of switch, LTSP server, 20 used computers (which we typically didn't pay for), and the cables, etc we typically had a budget of R20000
<highvoltage> that's only about â¬2150
<highvoltage> the schools would implement their own desks, etc and make sure that the classroom is ready to transform into a computer lab
<highvoltage> and then we'd go in on a saturday with volunteers and set everything up with the teachers at the school
<highvoltage> in general, it would cost more, but using LTSP you can really start with very little and expand from there, which is one of the reasons we work so hard to integrate it properly with edubuntu
<ClassBot> mhall119 asked: and also, how many people (both at your company and the school) are involved in the implementation?
<highvoltage> good question. we have staff in canada, brazil and france. it differs from location to location. the current schools we work with like to be quite dependent, so we provide a lot of our services remotely
<highvoltage> with the south african schools that was quite tough because many of the schools didn't even have an Internet connection in their labs
<highvoltage> so remote support was often not even an option.
<highvoltage> in Canada it's quite different though :)
<ClassBot> helger asked: Why is Edubuntu only available on DVD? In many parts of the world it is common that computer labs at schools consist of dontated second hand computers. These computers do not have DVD players and can often not boot from USB... How can one install Edubuntu in this case?
<highvoltage> helger: great question
<highvoltage> the short answer: you can't
<highvoltage> we have a problem with Edubuntu at the moment where we just install *everything* that's available
<highvoltage> so due to a lot of the services that start up on the disc, it ends up needing 1GB of RAM to install with a full desktop install session
<highvoltage> that's just way too much for a typical old computer
<highvoltage> for Edubuntu 11.04, we're going to componentize it more so that you can specifically choose the software you want to install
<highvoltage> it will require much less RAM to install and will be more suitable for older computers as well
<highvoltage> if you have lots of old computers you probably also want to use LTSP as well
<highvoltage> You'll find that the Edubuntu team is quite helpful, and will attempt to help a school in the support lists/channel even if they run Xubuntu or Lubuntu or one fo the Ubuntu variants aimed at smaller systems
<highvoltage> other systems will just provide much less out of the box, and especially some systems like Lubuntu might not quite provide the level of usability that educators and students may require
<highvoltage> as for the DVD part, we do try to keep it small
<highvoltage> but keeping Edubuntu to once CD is extremely hard, considering that Ubuntu already has a tough time fitting on a CD, and we're adding to that
<highvoltage> at one point, we split Edubuntu off to an add-on CD to Ubuntu
<highvoltage> that way you had two CD's, one with the 700MB of Ubuntu that was already included in the Edubuntu disc, and the add-on disc that then contained the Edubuntu parts
<highvoltage> even though it seemed like a great idea technically at the time
<highvoltage> we had to deal with a lot of outrage from our users who were unhappy about it
<highvoltage> people made it clear that what they wanted was a turn-key solution, and that we were wasting our time with the add-on Cd
<highvoltage> we listened and merged the edubuntu-addon CD back with an Ubuntu system to provide a full Edubuntu system again
<highvoltage> and it just grew from there
<highvoltage> (shew long answer!)
<ClassBot> sebsebseb asked: Why is there not a version of Edubuntu based on KDE?
<highvoltage> what makes you think there's not ;)
<highvoltage> on KDE, it works more like it did with our add-on CD in the past
<highvoltage> first, you have to install Kubuntu, and then you can install the edubuntu-desktop-kde package
<highvoltage> we provide some instructions for this on http://edubuntu.org/download
<highvoltage> I'm not 100% sure how well the Edubuntu KDE desktop is maintained at this point, but we certainly welcome wider testing and reporting of bugs!
<highvoltage> as for a full-install spin with a default KDE desktop, we just don't have the resources currently to test all those builds when it comes to release milestones and releases
<highvoltage> I'm also quite confident that the average KDE user would be skillul enough to be able to select and install packages on their system :)
<highvoltage> I've answered quite a few Edubuntu questions
<highvoltage> any education or school related questions out there?
<highvoltage> I've just peeked at -chat, and regarding the earlier question about how big Edubuntu is, there is also the Qimo project that is based on Xfce. We collaborate a bit with that project as well
<highvoltage> their website is http://www.qimo4kids.com/
<highvoltage> qimo is targeted at kids and great if you have small kids and you want to install it on your home computer
<ClassBot> mhall119 asked: in the USA there seems to be an attitude of "Kids should only learn Windows, because that's all they'll use when they grow up".  How do you overcome that?
<highvoltage> I *love* that question
<highvoltage> and have come across it a lot in South Africa too
<highvoltage> not to get too deep into politics, but in the Apartheid era in South Africa the government didn't allow some schools in certain 'black areas' at the time to offer subjects like mathematics and science, because they said that those people wouldn't be able to go to university or be able to get a good job anyway
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<highvoltage> it was a quite horrible system where they had to learn mundane work because "that's what they're going to be doing one day anyway"
<highvoltage> in the same veign, I argued that teacing kids to be simple office workers just because that is what many people are likely to become is wrong
<highvoltage> education shouldn't be about dumbing people down to the most common denominator
<highvoltage> it should be about teaching people and helping them to reach their potential
<highvoltage> teaching them to think in one very specific way isn't doing that. teaching them how very different systems look and work and teaching them the concepts instead is much more useful, imho
<highvoltage> especially since technologies change a lot. in one period people might use WordStar, then WordPerfect, then MSWord for DOS 5.5, then MS Office, then OpenOffice... history has shown that things change anyway :)
<ClassBot> mhall119 asked: Do you do anything to help schools improve their curiculum for teaching about computers?
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<highvoltage> not currently, but I know of projects that do, one non-profit I worked with (Ikamva Youth) has put together a curriculum for their students
<highvoltage> I haven't been following them recently so I'm unable to comment on the exact status, but I can recommend googling them :)
<highvoltage> This is not so much a question but a comment I noticed while glancing over -chat:
<highvoltage> 13:53 < mick_laptop> M$ gives free copies of windows and offers to help w/ elecvtricity etc for using windows
<highvoltage> in South Africa, we had the problem of some of the labs we installed being actively removed to make space for free Windows labs
<highvoltage> we lost some schools purely because the local organisation taht was funded by Microsoft (at least in part) provided the schools with much more than we could at the time
<highvoltage> in the beginned it was very painful to deal with that
<highvoltage> but after it happened with a few schools, we found a whole lot more schools who refused that offer and said that they specifically want to stay with free software and do things for themselves
<highvoltage> it was great to see that there were so many teachers who were so passionate about it that some of them even argued it with the headmaster of the school at the risk of losing their jobs
<ClassBot> tentwelveeight asked: Edubuntu's goal says: "Our aim is to put together a system that contains all the best free software available in education in an easy to install and maintain package. (we'll rephrase this soon and also mention our emphasis on usability...)". Why the rephrasing, and how can I get Canonical to support the "maintain" aspect by offering Landscape to schools and educational organizations for free?
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2010/10/14/%23ubuntu-classroom.html
<highvoltage> tentwelveeight: heh, I meant to clean that up a bit when we launched the new website... and I guess I'm gon enow :)
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || UOW Survey: http://is.gd/fZlwL ||
<tentwelveeight> no worries. nice job jonathan
<sebsebseb> Oh yeah can chat in here again, well lets say it in here as well then :D  highvoltage Good session :)
<helger> thanks highvoltage.great session :-)
<sebsebseb> Got cut off though, but nevermind
<mhall119> sebsebseb: the party never stops at #edubuntu ;)
<highvoltage> :)
<sebsebseb> highvoltage: oh you could have done some extra time here, if you really wanted to, but nevermind
<ElvisTheKing> QUESTION: what is the best tool for development? i am new in ubuntu
<ElvisTheKing> Kdeveloper?
#ubuntu-classroom 2010-10-15
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || UOW Survey: http://is.gd/fZlwL || Event: Packaging Training Session - Current Session: Tips and Tricks for New Developers - Instructors: nhandler
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2010/10/15/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<nhandler> Hello everyone, and welcome to another Packaging Training Session!
<nhandler> Today's session will most likely be relatively short, but I will be providing some tips and tricks for new developers in the Ubuntu community.
<nhandler> These tips will be less technical in nature and more focused on processes and other common workflows/situations developers will face
<nhandler> If you have any questions, feel free to ask at any time.
<nhandler> Let's get started
<nhandler> One of the most important things to remember is that Ubuntu cares a lot about the community.
<nhandler> If you are just starting out with development, do not think that you will be working in an isolated bubble
<nhandler> We have many development teams that group people with similar interests together so that they can collaborate and help each other
<nhandler> For example, there is a Mozilla team that focuses on mozilla-related packages
<nhandler> If you are unsure of which team to join, you can either try searching around yourself or ask in a channel like #ubuntu-motu. Someone will be able to point you in the right direction
<nhandler> On a related topic, when you are starting out, I would encourage you to ask lots of questions.
<nhandler> Development is not the easiest area to get involved with. It can be confusing at first. We all were new at some point, so don't be afraid or embarrassed to ask questions when you are unsure of something
<nhandler> However, keep in mind, there is a difference between asking for help and asking someone to do your work for you. Developers are able to easily distinguish between the two types of requests, so please be sure to avoid the later
<nhandler> If you are planning on eventually applying for upload rights, you will eventually need to prepare a wiki page documenting your contributions.
<nhandler> You may find that updating a wiki page as you go will make your life easier down the road.
<nhandler> If you decide to do this, keep track of information such as: applications you've packaged, bugs you've patched, developers you have worked with or who have sponsored your work (and what bugs/packages they reviewed for you), issues you encounter (and solutions if you find them), and any other information you think might be useful to have documented.
<nhandler> This will save you from having to search through emails and Launchpad to find this information later on
<nhandler> Although Ubuntu is a separate distribution, we still rely on Debian for lots of things.
<nhandler> We pull many packages and patches from them.
<nhandler> Therefore, it is important that we send our work back to them whenever possible
<nhandler> If you decide to focus on particular packages in Ubuntu, I would urge you to contact the Debian Maintainer for each of the packages. You will (hopefully) be working with them a lot, and it is useful to have a good relationship with them. This tends to make it much easer to get patches and other changes made to the package as well as get help from the maintainer
<nhandler> I know when I first got involved in development, I thought that developers were the people who packaged the applications. I didn't know about the other tasks they performed, and I thought that packaging applications was the only way I would ever gain upload privileges
<nhandler> Developers perform many different tasks in the community (packaging being just one of them). They patch bugs reported on LP, sync/merge packages from Debian, fix packages that fail to build from source, help triage bugs and send bugs/patches upstream, as well as many other tasks.
<nhandler> It is also important to remember that in Ubuntu, we do not have per-package maintainers. Therefore, if you package an application that not many people use, unless you help keep it patches/updated, it will soon become full of bugs and other issues.
<nhandler> This is one reason why we try and encourage certain applications to go into Debian first (where they can then be synced into Ubuntu). Debian has per-package maintainers. This means that there is an individual or team responsible for every package in their repositories.
<nhandler> Switching gears slightly, it is important to remember that we should avoid re-inventing the wheel whenever we can.
<nhandler> I often see users who are simply unaware of existing tools, who try and create their own version. Before you start working on any project (whether creating a script, patching a bug, scripting a tool, or anything else), please take the couple of minutes to search and check for existing work
<nhandler> The extra minute or two at the start will save you hours of wasted work down the road
<nhandler> One pitfall that many developers run into at one point or another is burnout. We simply try and do more than we are capable of. Remember, quality work is better than a large quantity of work. Take it nice and easy at the start until you get a feel for how long certain tasks take and how difficult they are
<nhandler> An important thing to remember is that this is not easy work. If you have questions or are a bit confused at first, that is perfectly normal. Try and avoid getting frustrated, read through a few guides, and ask questions when necessary. If you stick with it, you will be able to learn how to perform the various developer-related tasks (with some help from the community)
<nhandler> Does anyone have any questions?
<ClassBot> abgalphabet asked: what's your suggestion for a new developer to get start, e.g. what tools they need?
<nhandler> There are lots of tools that can be useful to new developers
<nhandler> You will need some way to test build your packages. Many developers use pbuilder for this. Some use sbuild, others use Launchpad PPAs, and others use a chroot/VM
<nhandler> ubuntu-dev-tools and devscripts are also two useful packages
<nhandler> They contain collections of scripts that other developers have created. They are designed to make your life easier, so I would suggest looking at them
<nhandler> This last item isn't really a "tool", but it is still just as handy. You will want to reference the Debian Policy whenever you have questions about any aspect of a package. It is the authoritive source (although, there are a few minor divergences from it in the Ubuntu community)
<ClassBot> abgalphabet asked: is there any pointer for new developer in the required/suggested tool chain?
<nhandler> abgalphabet_: You will want to make sure you are building your packages on the development release of Ubuntu (i.e. once the natty repositories open up, you will want to build pacakges on natty).
<nhandler> You don't actually need to run natty on your machine to do this. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UsingDevelopmentReleases/OtherWays describes several options
<nhandler> Any more questions?
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<ClassBot> IdleOne asked: FTBFS?
<nhandler> FTBFS means Fails To Build From Source. This means that we have a source package that we are unable to build and get a binary deb package. This might be due to certain build dependencies being unavailable, bugs in the upstream source code, or issues in the packaging (as well as other issues)
<nhandler> http://qa.ubuntuwire.org/ftbfs/ shows packages that FTBFS
<nhandler> Any last questions?
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<ClassBot> amason asked: i have some applications that i wanted to package but i live in a rural area and don't have the bandwidth for pbuilder to set up it's chroot.
<nhandler> amason: You could use PPAs to test build packages (in most cases). If you ask around, you could also probably find someone willing to give you ssh access to a machine to run pbuilder.
<nhandler> Well, thanks for coming everyone. If you have any further questions, feel free to PM me or ask in #ubuntu-motu/#ubuntu-devel/#ubuntu-packaging (whichever is best) or on the ML.
<nhandler> Logs will be on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Packaging/Training/Logs
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2010/10/15/%23ubuntu-classroom.html
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || UOW Survey: http://is.gd/fZlwL ||
<nhandler> Well, that was annoying. I did !c several times instead of !q
<stnv> .
<michaelgraaf> join #teachingopensource
<michaelgraaf> #join teachingopensource
<sebsebseb> Hi
<johann_karlsen> Is this channel empty? Are you all away?
 * pedro3005 raises hand
<Kvik_sverige> If ubuntu one can't sync, is there anyway i can force it?
<persia> Kvik_sverige, This isn't a support channel.  Maybe try #ubuntuone ?
<Kvik_sverige> persia,  sorry
<akgraner> 2 minutes til Day 5 kicks off
<dpm> \o/
<akgraner> the logs of the past sessions are linked up now and linked to the time table
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || UOW Survey: http://is.gd/fZlwL || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Best Practices for Translation Teams - Instructors: dpm
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2010/10/15/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<akgraner> Good Morning
<akgraner> Up first to day is David Planella with the Community team
<akgraner> Don't for get have a survey this time for  you to give us feedback - http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/GBSK33S
<akgraner> ok dpm if you are ready take it away
<dpm> Thanks akgraner!
<dpm> Hey!
<dpm> How's everyone?
<dpm> Welcome to another translations session this week
<dpm> For those of you interested in our exciting translations world, don't forget to check out the logs on getting started translating Ubuntu, from last Tuesday:
<dpm>   https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/openweekMaverick/GettingStartedTranslatingUbuntu
<dpm> I'm David Planella, I work in the Community team as Ubuntu Translations Coordinator,
<dpm> and in the next hour I'll be talking a bit about best practices for translation teams
<dpm> The intention is to help translation teams to make the best use of the existing resources to be effective and successful,
<dpm> with the end goal to provide millions of people with a localized desktop in their own language.
<dpm> Which when you look at it, it's a pretty awesome goal.
<dpm> There will be plenty of time for questions at the end, but if you've got any at any point during the session, please feel free to ask.
<dpm> Right, so after being done with presentations, let's get on to it, shall we?
<dpm>  
<dpm> I'm going to start with the two most important points I believe a translation team should concentrate on setting up first.
<dpm> These will provide the ground work to build upon for a successful translation effort:
<dpm> for a good team coordination and to foster team growth
<dpm>  
<dpm> Translation Guidelines
<dpm> ----------------------
<dpm> Each team should have a document that outlines the conventions used to translate into their language,
<dpm> as well as how the team works.
<dpm> This should include things such as:
<dpm>  * How to join the team
<dpm>  * The workflow for submitting and reviewing translations
<dpm>  * [IMPORTANT] Guidelines for translation of computer programs into the team's language: grammar rules, conventions, a glossary with translations of common terms, etc.
<dpm> I'll restate the last point: it will take a while to create the translation guidelines, but once set up,
<dpm> they will extremely speed up the translation process and help providing a consistent and quality translation.
<dpm> Most teams use the Ubuntu wiki to host such a document, under a page such as Ubuntu<Language>Translators.
<dpm> Here is an example: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuCatalanTranslators
<dpm> One word of advice on the first two points: try to define the processes (accepting new team members, review workflow, etc.), but try not to make them too bureocratic :)
<dpm>  * More info:
<dpm> Here you'll find more information about guidelines for translation teams, along with some nice examples from other teams that should help you get started:
<dpm>  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Translations/KnowledgeBase/TranslationGuidelines
<dpm>  
<dpm> Communication
<dpm> -------------
<dpm> For a well coordinated effort and to enjoy true community work, it is also important that team members keep in touch.
<dpm> It is not only important from a social point of view and for a healthy team,
<dpm> but also for discussion about the translation itself: doubts about translations, organizing online or physical events for translations, etc.
<dpm> The most common communication channel is a mailing list.
<dpm> You can request one at https://lists.ubuntu.com/ or in Launchpad,
<dpm> although for translation teams we recommend an Ubuntu list.
<dpm> We've also got a global mailing list for Ubuntu Translators.
<dpm> We ask all local team coordinators to subscribe and forward all relevant messages to their teams,
<dpm> but anyone interested in following news about Ubuntu Translations is welcome to subscribe. Here's how:
<dpm>  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Translations/Contact/
<dpm> Other useful ways of communicating are local forums and IRC channels.
<dpm> IRC can be very useful to run meetings to discuss the translation coordination, setting goals, organize events, etc.
<dpm> Forums can be used in a very similar way as mailing lists, but have some additional features and might be friendlier for beginners
<dpm> It is also worth getting in touch with your local community team (LoCo) if there is one.
<dpm> There might be people willing to help with the translation effort there.
<dpm> You can find a LoCo nearby here:
<dpm>  http://loco.ubuntu.com/
<dpm>  
<dpm> Regular Events
<dpm> --------------
<dpm> You'll want to keep your team alive, get people excited about translations and get new contributors for your language.
<dpm> Running regular translations events will help you on this
<dpm> You can organize translations jams any time. They can be, for example:
<dpm>  * Online IRC events: where several contributors join on IRC to work together on finishing a set of translations
<dpm>  * Physical events: where existing and new contributors meet at a place to work on translations in the same way.
<dpm> Here are some hints to organize such an event:
<dpm>  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Jams/Translations
<dpm> A very good occasion for organizing such an event is during the Ubuntu Global Jam.
<dpm> The Global Jam happens once every release, near the end of the cycle,
<dpm> and during this time LoCo teams from all over the world join the party to contribute to improving Ubuntu
<dpm> using the best skills they have in particular areas
<dpm> A key area are, of course, translations.
<dpm> So this is a good time to join the worldwide party and organize a Translations Jam for your language
<dpm>  * More info on the Ubuntu Global Jam:
<dpm>  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuGlobalJam
<dpm> Remember to announce any event in advance, so that people know about them with enough time and have time to prepare and make arrangements.
<dpm> You can use social networking resources (microblogs, blogs, Facebook, news sites, etc.) or any other means (e.g. regular press, flyers, etc.) to make a wide announcement.
<dpm>  
<dpm> Regular Meetings
<dpm> ----------------
<dpm> To help getting the information flowing, to coordinate the translation efforts and for more agile discussion, IRC meetings can also be extremely useful
<dpm> Meetings are good for:
<dpm>  * Sharing news
<dpm>  * Getting to know or introducing new members to the team
<dpm>  * Discussing and setting translation goals
<dpm> Even if you don't run many meetings, it is always useful to have a couple of them in the cycle.
<dpm> For example:
<dpm>  * A meeting at the beginning of the cycle to discuss or announce any news in translations, and to set goals (e.g. "Finish the ubuntu-docs translation this cycle")
<dpm>  * A meeting near the end of the cycle to discuss what's left to do and to organize any events to give a final push to translations before release
<dpm> You can create a new IRC channel for your team on Freenode (e.g. #ubuntu-l10n-<languagecode>),
<dpm> or reuse the one your LoCo has, if there is one.
<dpm>  
<dpm> Spreading the Word
<dpm> ------------------
<dpm> You'll also want everyone to know about your translation effort: your achievements, where you need help, etc.
<dpm> Let the world know: this will help you build up a strong community and user base around your team and get people interested in participating
<dpm> Use the social networks, blogs, microblogs, Facebook, etc.
<dpm> Publish your achievements, how and where is Ubuntu used in your language, any topic related to the work that you are doing
<dpm> Consider getting some members of the team to apply for Ubuntu membership:
<dpm> amongst other benefits, they'll be able to post to the Ubuntu Planet and let the global community know about your translation efforts.
<dpm> Here's how:
<dpm>  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership
<dpm>  
<dpm> Upstream Collaboration
<dpm> ----------------------
<dpm> The more you get involved in the translations process, the more you'll hear about upstreams.
<dpm> Ubuntu, as a project, includes the best of breed Open Source software projects available.
<dpm> Many of these are developed outside of the Ubuntu project. We call them upstreams.
<dpm> As such, it is also common that translations in upstream projects are done outside of Launchpad, with different teams than the Ubuntu translators.
<dpm> We import those excellent translations from upstream translators and expose them in Launchpad for the Ubuntu translation teams to complete and fix if necessary.
<dpm> It is important for these new translations and fixes to flow back to the upstream projects,
<dpm> so a smooth relationship with the upstream teams is the best way to achieve this.
<dpm> In my experience, having members from the Ubuntu translation team join the upstream teams or viceversa is usually the best way to go.
<dpm>  * You can learn more about Ubuntu and upstreams here:
<dpm>  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Translations/Upstream
<dpm>  
<dpm> Other Tips
<dpm> ----------
<dpm>  * If there isn't a translation team for your language, you can start one like this: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Translations/KnowledgeBase/StartingTeam
<dpm>  * Before accepting new members to a team, it might be worth letting them translate a few strings and mentor them in the process of becoming an Ubuntu translator
<dpm>  * Use the Launchpad UI for translations: it will allow submitting both suggestions and translations whenever you've got time and saving them. You can go back to them, complete them or modify them at any later time
<dpm> (so that will allow you things as submitting translations with your phone while you're waiting in the supermarket queue :)
<dpm>  * For extra QA, make use of Launchpad's built-in review features: even if you can submit translations directly, tick the "Someone should review this translation" checkbox or use the "Reviewer mode" link and get someone else from the team to review your suggestions
<dpm>  * Use the Ubuntu wiki or an external one to make a list of the translations that need work and to keep track who is working on them
<dpm>  * Remember that translation templates in https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu are ordered by priority: the most important templates appear first on the list. You might want to concentrate on those first
<dpm>  * You can ask any questions about Ubuntu Translations on the translators mailing list or in Launchpad: https://answers.launchpad.net/ubuntu-translations/+addquestion
<dpm>  * We've also got a FAQ for anything related to Ubuntu Translations: https://answers.launchpad.net/ubuntu-translations/+faqs
<dpm>  * If you are a team coordinator, here you'll also find some guidelines for you https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Translations/KnowledgeBase/TeamCoordinatorResponsibilities
<dpm>  * If you are a team coordinator and can no longer take care of the team, or if your translation team coordinator is not responding, here are some tips for a graceful role reassignment: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Translations/KnowledgeBase/RoleReassignmentPolicy
<dpm>  * External resources such as http://open-tran.eu/ are also useful to check translation terminology and consistency
<dpm>  * Check out the Ubuntu Translations Knowledge Base https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Translations/KnowledgeBase - you'll find lots of info there, don't read it at once, it's rather thought as a reference resource. Feel free to expand and modify it!
<dpm>  
<dpm> Q&A
<dpm> ---
<dpm> So that was all for the listening part :)
<dpm> We've got some minutes left for you, please feel free to ask any questions related to translation teams or Ubuntu translations in general
<dpm> If you are a member of an existing team, also please feel free to share your views, tips, workflow, etc.
<dpm> (just ping me on #ubuntu-classroom-chat and we'll give you voice on this channel)
<ClassBot> IdleOne asked: Good morning! Wanted to ask about the CoC and what the chances of seeing it translated officially so that everybody can read/sign it in their own language in time for 11.04. there is at least one unofficial French version at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Proposed/frCodeOfConduct ?
<dpm> There will be a session at UDS for this, and any contributions to help achieving this will be very welcome
<dpm> Stay tuned for the scheduling of UDS sessions in the next few days
<dpm> Any more questions?
<ClassBot> arjunaraoc asked: Ubuntu mail archive rendering does not support  non latin scripts. can I migrate my team to google groups
<dpm> Of course. We recommend using the Ubuntu resources, but if there are such issues, feel free to use an external resource. I'm surprised that mailman does not support non-latin scripts, though. You should probably file a bug against mailman, the software used for the Ubuntu mailing lists
<dpm> next?
<ClassBot> arjunaraoc asked: How is the priority of translation packages determined?
<dpm> This will give you an insight on how the priority is defined:
<dpm>  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Translations/TemplatesPriority
<dpm> we basically worked out a scheme for priorities assigning each template or group of templates a numerical value
<dpm> and then we entered those values in Launchpad
<andrejz> I have a suggestion about a chat room. In our case it turned out that many people (especially new ubuntu users, who are enthusiastic to help out) do not know how to use IRC. To lower the entry barrier we use a jabber chatroom, like this one. http://partychapp.appspot.com/. This means potential contributors only need to add a new contact to their gmail/jabber account (which everyone has) and start writing. It might not seem much, bu
<andrejz> t this helps a lot.
<dpm> Thanks andrejz, that's a good suggestion
<ClassBot> valter asked: How to better improve upstream / launchpad integration? Release packages often contains untranslated strings due to different workflows
<dpm> That's correct
<dpm> The Launchpad Translations developers are currently focusing on improving upstream integration
<dpm> The first part is import: how translations get into Launchpad for the Ubuntu project
<dpm> Right now it is through packages, which leads to times in which translations are out of sync
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<ClassBot> valter asked: is it possible to have a different structure to better match the different distros?
<dpm> The plan is to import translations directly from bzr-mirrored upstream branches
<dpm> so that translations are imported with just a few hours delay
<dpm> valter, could you specify what you mean by a different structure?
<dpm> in the meantime, are there any more questions or suggestions related to translation teams?
<andrejz> i would like to add it's good to look at l10n.gnome.org/languages/ and see if gnome upstream exists for your language and coordinate with them. also do that for other teams (KDE, Debian, Translation project)
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<dpm> yeah, good point. andrejz is the team coordinator for both GNOME and Ubuntu in Slovenian, so he knows well what he's talking about :)
<andrejz> i am just a member of gnome translators group (also a member of translation project)
<dpm> in any case well experienced in terms of upstream-downstream coordination :)
<andrejz> if upstream team has difficulties with the workload don't be afraid to send, lend your members to them
<andrejz> Question: why do not you take out firefox, debian-installer, which require other setups for proper translation/check in from launchpad or atleast make them readonly
<dpm> let me answer this on the -chat room, as we've got no more time on this session
<dpm> Ok, so many thanks for listening and participating, and thanks for andrejz's input as special guest :)
<dpm> I'll now leave you in the good hands of Scott Lavender, who'll be talking about "Ubuntu Studio Q&A"
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || UOW Survey: http://is.gd/fZlwL || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Ubuntu Studio Q&A - Instructors: ScottL
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2010/10/15/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<ScottL> Hello and welcome to Ubuntu Studio: Q & A
<ScottL> I am Scott Lavender, project lead for Ubuntu Studio and I look forward to answer any questions you might have
<ScottL> But first I'll mention some things about Ubuntu Studio
<ScottL>  
<ScottL> What exactly is Ubuntu Studio?
<ScottL> Ubuntu Studio is based on Ubuntu, it shares the same core code
<ScottL> but we include various audio, video, and graphical applications that are not included in the typical desktop Ubuntu installation
<ScottL> additionally, we make some changes to some system settings, which is intended to improve performance
<ScottL> in the past we have had a tuned kernel available, as well, to improve performance
<ScottL> and our hope to provide a tuned kernel included in a default installation in the near future (perhaps in natty)
<ScottL> any questions so far?
<ScottL> Right.  Moving on, I'll address some of the more common questions that I see
<ScottL> One is network configuration
<ScottL> Ubuntu Studio chooses to include the gnome-network-admin package for handling networking
<ScottL> this choice was because network-manager was found to degrade performance
<ScottL> when i say "degrade performance" in this case, it means it increased latency or cause xruns when recording audio
<ScottL> it was found that gnome-network-admin did not cause the same performance degradation
<ScottL> unfortunately, it was also found that gnome-network-admin had a patch applied to it that removed the configuratuion UI when network-manager was chose to handle networking in both Debian and Ubuntu, I believe
<ScottL> while this did not prove so troubling to persons using a wired connection to a dhcp router, many users (say laptop users) found that they could not configure their connections and therefore unable to connect to the internet
<ScottL> luckily the patch was moderated as of Maverick and Ubuntu Studio users should now be able to configure their network connections once again
<ScottL> as a backup, however, we have been including network-manager on the dvd
<ScottL> network-manager is not installed by default, but can be installed manually if the user chooses
<ScottL> !q
<ClassBot> charlie-tca asked: Studio has quite a busy login and background. For some of us, it is hard to distinguish the background black pattern and the panel. Any plans to change this?
<ScottL> short answer is yes, we are looking to changing the art
<ScottL> we would prefer to use art that is user created and we welcome submissions
<ClassBot> charlie-tca asked: I guess mostly I am hoping it will become more accessible. Those with visual impairments will have some issues trying to see with the background as busy as it is.
<ScottL> i agree
<ScottL> i personally prefer a background with less contrast in it as the desktop become very confusing
<ScottL> additionally, we currently lack an art lead, if anyone is interested please contact the ubuntustudio-devel mailing list
<ScottL> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-devel
<ScottL>  
<ScottL> if anyone has questions, please ask them at any time, otherwise I will move onto other questions that are asked often
<ScottL> Another question asked, is why the Ubuntu Studio team chooses to make an ISO rather than use the Ubuntu desktop CD and install packages from the archives or PPA?
<ScottL> One certainly can start with a Ubuntu (or Xubuntu, Kubuntu, Lubuntu, et al) install and install packages and many do!
<ScottL> however, as a team we choose to make an ISO for various reasons
<ScottL> firstly, this allows us to control what does NOT get installed
<ScottL> for example, the me-menu and other social items are excluded from the default Ubuntu Studio installation as they would general degrade performance
<ScottL> a user may certainly install them if they wish from the repositories, and that is their choice of course
<ScottL> there are system settings (e.g. adding user to audio group) extant in the default Ubuntu Studio installation
<ScottL> these would need to be made manually otherwise
<ScottL> an extremely useful benefit for a new user
<ScottL> other reasons include using the installation disc on multiple computer or computers without an internet connection
<ScottL> Moving on, I'll talk about some of the improvement in Ubuntu Studio for the Maverick release
<ScottL> we now have better integration between Pulse Audio and JACK
<ScottL> we have updated JACK from the 0.118 series to the 1.9.5 I believe
<ScottL> the pertinent improvement in this is that JACK now uses D-BUS to negotiate with devices
<ScottL> this allows JACK and Pulse Audio to coexist much better than before
<ScottL> prior to this, starting JACK via qjackctl would cause Pulse Audio to suspend
<ScottL> this is no longer the case
<ScottL> both can be used at the same time as long as Pulse Audio and JACK are using different devices
<ScottL> for example
<ScottL> I would expect many (if not most) Ubuntu Studio computer to have an additional audio interface (say an MAudio delta 44) in addition to an onboard integrated sound chip
<ScottL> in this case, one could watch a youtube video and hear the sound through the onboard audio device
<ScottL> while playing guitar and hearing it through the delta 44
<ClassBot> charlie-tca asked: any chance Ubuntu Studio could be made to fit a standard CD?
<ScottL> that is both an excellent question and a laudable goal
<ScottL> my answer would be that it is possible, but at what cost?
<ScottL> it is possible, indeed, but we would need to see what functionality we would be eliminating
<ScottL> we would also need to evaluate the ultimate reason to fitting on a CD
<ScottL> if the reason is bandwidth, that might be address in a better way by evaluating the current package selection (ideally without hindering functionality)
<ScottL> if the reason is because CD's are less expensive and more pervasive than DVD's, that certainly would be hard to be addressed in another manner
<ScottL> again, an excellent question
<ClassBot> charlie-tca asked: what is the IRC channel for Ubuntu Studio?
<ScottL> the IRC channel for Ubuntu Studio is #ubuntustudio
<ScottL> this is for most general questions about Ubuntu Studio
<ScottL> if you wish to talk with the developers about contributing to Ubuntu Studio (e.g. artwork, themes, testing, documentation) you can read them at #ubuntustudio-devel on IRC as well
<ScottL> users will most likely find helpful information at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudio
<ScottL> this is geared more toward helping users user Ubuntu Studio
<ScottL> development topics are generally found at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio
<ScottL> users can also find assistance at the ubuntustudio-users mailing list https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-users
<ClassBot> charlie-tca asked: what are the expected changes for Natty in Ubuntu Studio? anything major known yet?
<ScottL> There are substantial changes lined up for Natty
<ScottL> currently we are working with the Ubuntu Kernel Team to develop and maintain a -lowlatency kernel in the official repositories
<ScottL> the is important
<ScottL> i mentioned before a tuned kernel, which was the -rt kernel
<ScottL> unfortunately this kernel could not be consistently maintained in the repos and align with the -generic kernel (the -rt patch is not available for every release version)
<ScottL> therefore, we choose the -lowlatency kernel to be the default installed kernel for Ubuntu Studio
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<ScottL> our plan is to also provide a -realtime kernel available in PPA to those who require it (e.g. firewire audio interface users)
<ScottL> we are also evaulating our package selection by focusing on tasks
<ScottL> we are mapping tasks that users might want to accomplish and making sure we have a complete and effective workflow developed to support that tasks
<ScottL> this will decided which applications are included in Ubuntu Studio
<ScottL> users are encourage to help in this process at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Workflows
<ScottL>  
<ScottL> the task based workflows are important because this will also provide the framework for documentation and testing as well
<ScottL> one last thing we hope to accomplish is to update the ubuntustudio.org website before natty
<ScottL> we are currently evaluating mockups for this at the moment and hope to decide on a direction soon and start moving forward
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<ScottL> if anyone is interested in helping with that please contact me
<ScottL> https://launchpad.net/~slavender
<ScottL> and if anyone is interested in helping in ANY aspect with Ubuntu Studio please do not hesitate to contact me as well :)
<ScottL> I want to thank everyone that showed up for this class, I certainly enjoyed myself and I hope you did too
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || UOW Survey: http://is.gd/fZlwL || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Have you tried turning it off and then on again? - Instructors: jledbetter, Cheri703
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2010/10/15/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<jledbetter> Howdy everyone! My name is Jessica Ledbetter and Iâm a web developer and long time user of Linux but new user of Ubuntu. My first install was in October 2009 and Iâm currently using 10.10. Iâm a member of the Virginia LoCo, California LoCo, and Ubuntu-Women. More information if you want it: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/jledbetter
<jledbetter> And Cheri703 is Cheri Francis who has been using Ubuntu since 2008, but only recently begun exploring beyond the basic desktop environment. She is also a member of the Ohio LoCo and often loiters in the Ubuntu-Women IRC room. And she'll be answering your questions today. :)
<jledbetter> One of the strengths to Ubuntu is the community. In this session, youâll learn about the various resources to help you connect with that community to help you fix problems you may encounter while using Ubuntu.
<jledbetter> Weâll look at how to figure out what happened, find out ways you can fix it and what to do if you canât.
<jledbetter> As a reminder, if you have a question, please begin it with QUESTION: in the #ubuntu-classroom-chat room. For example: QUESTION: What does the session's title mean? And then we will answer in this channel #ubuntu-classroom with the answer. It keeps the logs tidy and the channel bot happy.
<jledbetter> Something happened! There was a crash or data went away or Tomcat and Eclipse are not working well together magically. Pause, don't panic, and put on your detective hat.
<jledbetter> Because, no matter what, you'll need information for either yourself to help you fix the problem or for someone else to do it.
<jledbetter> First: What happened?
<jledbetter> What was the error message (if there was one)?
<jledbetter> Can you get a screenshot (print screen)? Â When you print screen, a box will come up and ask where you want to save it to. I usually save it to desktop because it's easy to find and easy to delete after I'm done.
<jledbetter> A screenshot can also capture errors that don't have a message like a menu item is in the wrong spot or there's a blank window where text should be.
<jledbetter> If you don't want to or can't get a screenshot, you can maybe copy the message into a text editor (like gedit) or write it on a piece of paper. Recording it is very helpful for later.
<jledbetter> If you write it down, write it clearly and make sure to get symbols, punctuation and spacing correct, they can make a big difference!
<jledbetter> If you copy it, it's easier to paste into forums or a search engine.
<jledbetter> If it's something that isn't maybe an error message but happens during a sequence of events, you can try creating a video of your steps: gtk-recordmydesktop. I haven't tried this though. More information: http://recordmydesktop.sourceforge.net/about.php
<jledbetter> Information that is also helpful is package information and hardware information.
<jledbetter> Steps to find out your package information for Gnome, KDE, etc: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/FindRightPackage
<jledbetter> If you need to know what hardware you have (for example, sound isn't working and it might be helpful to know *what* soundcard you have): use the hardware lister command: sudo lshw > ~/Desktop/hardware.txt
<jledbetter> This will output the list of your hardware to a file called "hardware.txt" on the Desktop. Again, where is easiest for you works here.
<jledbetter> Another command line tool is lspci which will list the hardware connected to the PCI bus. If you're having network problems, for example, and want to see if your network card is is seen you can do this which will find all the occurrences of "Network" via the lspci command. Like this: lspci | grep Network
<jledbetter> For those more familiar with a Windows layout, or more comfortable with a graphical program vs command line, the package "gnome-device-manager" is a GUI tool that has the information about any devices recognized as attached to the computer.
<jledbetter> For more information on debugging applications, check out this wiki page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingProcedures
<jledbetter>  
<jledbetter> Now that you are armed with lots of clues on to why something happened, it's time to put the pieces together and find out how to fix it. First, let's try fixing it ourselves!
<jledbetter>  
<jledbetter> Any questions so far or shall we plow through to how to fix it?
<Cheri703> Looks like there aren't questions at the moment. Feel free to ask as we go along though!
<jledbetter> evdev mentioned in chat about the "apport" command. Here's how to enable it and more about how it can help you debug crashes: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Apport  Thank you, evdev :)
<jledbetter> Right o! Back to fixing the problems ourselves.
<jledbetter> After recording as much information as possible about error messages and such, try rebooting the computer. This has fixed MANY things for Cheri703 after spending far too much time looking for an answer, rebooted and "oh, it's fixed" TRY THIS FIRST!
<jledbetter> And that is why the title of this session ;)
<jledbetter> Some common tools needed are a CD, USB, copy of ISO, Ubuntu Rescue Remix ( http://ubuntu-rescue-remix.org/ ). I havenât needed to do this though. Usually I can fix my problems with either reinstalling the application that âwent to a bad state" or by updating a config file that was just plain old wrong.
<jledbetter> It's time to search for the solution. You can use a the search on Ubuntu's website or your favorite search engine.
<ClassBot> charlie-tca asked: would a Ubuntu desktop image, with the live environment work?
<Cheri703> My understanding is that yes, for many things, a regular desktop image would be helpful
<Cheri703> the Rescue Remix has additional utilities
<Cheri703> Recovery software
<Cheri703> You can always try the live cd, and if that doesn't help, use the live session to get the Rescue Remix :)
<Cheri703> Ok, jledbetter, back to searching :)
<jledbetter> Awesome! Searching... Ah yes, there's a lot of information out there on the wild wild web. How can we phrase our search to find the right answer?
<jledbetter> Generally starting very specific and working your way out is the easiest way to go about it. Don't add extra words if possible. "how do I get a dell xmodel# laptop to burn CDs in ubuntu" isn't likely to find a good solution. "Dell xmodel# ubuntu 10.10 cd burn" will offer more options. If nothing is found there, then taking it to "Dell xmodel# ubuntu cd burn" and so on, adjusting terms (cd drive vs burn, etc).
<jledbetter> Searching on Ubuntu's website is done here: http://search.ubuntu.com/. This will search Ubuntu.com, Ubuntu documentation, Mailing lists and forums, Ubuntu wiki, Ubuntu Merchandise, and Canonical blog (news).
<jledbetter> I usually go to my favorite search engine and type in my error message or my application and the version of Ubuntu. For example, I had issues with Eclipse and 10.04 so I searched "eclipse ubuntu 10.04" and found the answer within the top 2 links.
<jledbetter>  
<jledbetter> Another option to searching everything, is to search or use certain communities specifically. Here is a list of the ways we can get support via community: http://www.ubuntu.com/support/community
<jledbetter> Basically, it lists web forums, mailing lists, IRC, Launchpad, and Local language support. It can be a great starting point if you don't remember the links we list in the next few minutes.
<jledbetter> If you want to go straight to the official documentation, that's here: https://help.ubuntu.com
<jledbetter> If you want to try the community, find your way through it here: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/
<jledbetter> There's a signpost with some links next to it that will help guide you into the community based on your answer.
<jledbetter> If you would like to try "real time" help, you can use IRC . You're using IRC right now to attend this classroom session.
<jledbetter> Some good channels to join for help are: Â #ubuntu (the default Ubuntu help channel), #kubuntu (of course, if you're using Kubuntu), your Local Community IRC (more to come on that) and many channels specific to applications (search "*application* IRC").
<jledbetter> For more information on IRC, you can look at this help page: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/InternetRelayChat
<jledbetter>  
<jledbetter> Here are 3 quick tips on how to ask for help in IRC.
<jledbetter> 1) Join and wait a moment. If folks are in the middle of helping someone else, let them finish. That way, your problem can be given attention instead of lots of text scrolling your screen.
<jledbetter> 2) Be patient. Not everyone is at the keyboard 24/7. Some are at work and might be away from the keyboard for a moment before starting to answer your question or even during.
<jledbetter> 3) Be polite. Almost all of us are volunteers and help out others because we like it. If we don't know the answer, we might know someone or another way to get the answer.
<jledbetter> And then there's how not to ask for help. An example is here: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=661374  Basically, be a little more specific in your request so that others can help debug your problem with you. :)
<jledbetter> Let's say that you have a very large error message or the application you were using output a bunch of lines with file names in them like a "stack trace," then you can use an external way to paste the information in and share it with those in the channel.
<jledbetter> This way, it's more easily readable to all involved. This is a place you can paste your error message: http://paste.ubuntu.com/
<jledbetter> If you would like to post your problem in a more leisurely manner and/or read through some potential solutions to your problem, you can try the forums: http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=327  The forums are great. I found an answer to a problem I was wrestling with for a few hours there last night, as a matter of fact!
<jledbetter> A wonderful forum to start out with is "Absolute Beginner's Talk" http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=326
<jledbetter> The usual recommendations for how to ask for help and how not to ask for help apply, of course. If you do get a solution outside of the forum, please post a reply in your thread with what worked for you. It might help out someone else! Also, it'll stop others from trying to solve the solved problem.
<jledbetter> Any more questions so far?
<jledbetter> Well, if you do, feel free to ask with QUESTION :)
<jledbetter> Another way to ask for help much like a forum is via Stackexchange. And, it's new: http://askubuntu.com
<jledbetter> And more about the project is here: http://castrojo.tumblr.com/post/1283990862/and-were-live
<jledbetter> I highly recommend it. Just flipping through the questions and answers is fun and informative. As Jorge Castro says, "Remember people love to vote on answers with screenshots and easy to use instructions. Go get em!" And you already know how to make screenshots from a few minutes ago, right?
<jledbetter> Sill more ways to find help are Launchpad answers (http://answers.launchpad.net/ubuntu), mailing lists Â (https://lists.ubuntu.com/#Community+Support), your local Local Community (LoCo) team - (http://loco.ubuntu.com/teams/), or even your local Linux User Group (LUG) (http://www.linux.org/groups/).
<jledbetter> With your LoCo team and Linux User Groups, you might be able to take it to the group in person. That might help.
<jledbetter> Or just asking in your team channel might find an answer more quickly than #ubuntu. That's the order that I do it: LoCo team channel then #ubuntu.
<jledbetter> Let's say that you went through all the previous methods to try to find solution and are still stuck. Perhaps it's an honest to goodness bug and needs to be fixed.
<jledbetter> Here is how you can file a bug report: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ReportingBugs
<jledbetter> Again, if you want to see about some real-time help or have problems reporting the bug, the "Bugsquad" is in #ubuntu-bugs.
<jledbetter> A bug report should include at least the release of Ubuntu, version of package (example: apt-cache policy firefox-3.5), what you expected to happen, and what actually happened.
<jledbetter> If you don't want to go through finding and fixing your system, there is paid support available. And more on that is here: http://www.ubuntu.com/support/services
<jledbetter> Any other questions?
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<Cheri703> jledbetter: looks like we answered EVERY question anyone could possibly have! ;)
<jledbetter> Cheri703: We're that good ;)
<jledbetter> Today we were reminded of one of the strengths to Ubuntu: its community. Hopefully, you've seen how easy it is to find many different ways to connect to the knowledge base of the community and how to get help fixing problems. Â Also, you saw what to do if all else fails and you need to file a bug report.
<jledbetter> And, speaking of bug reports, up next is hggdh,  one of the members of the Bug Squad, to talk about "Bug Triaging: Do's and Do not's."
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || UOW Survey: http://is.gd/fZlwL || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Bug Triaging: Do's and Do not's - Instructors: hggdh
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2010/10/15/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<hggdh> Hello. My name is Carlos de-Avillez. I am one of the administrators for the BugSquad and BugControl teams on Ubuntu. I have been around bugs for pretty much all my professional life -- causing them, or finding them, or fixing them (or all three in sequence ;-).
<hggdh> I started with Ubuntu in 2006, when I was trying to find a Linux distribution that I felt more confortable with, and that did not need me to spend a lot of time tweaking the kernel, etc. And guess what... Ubuntu won! :-). I then joined the community, and started being active beginning of 2007.
<hggdh> Now, as usual, questions should be asked on the #ubuntu-classroom-chat channel. If you want to ask a question, write it there, and precede it with 'QUESTION:'. For example:
<hggdh>  QUESTION: what does 'hggdh' mean?
<hggdh> Let's get into the class now.
<hggdh> First, who we are (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugSquad)
<hggdh> The BugSquad is the team responsible for *triaging* bugs opened against Ubuntu and its packages. The term 'triage' is pretty much taken from medicine --  determining the priority of treatments based on the severity of a condition  (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triage).
<hggdh> Different from medical triage, though, we do not expect human death as a consequence of delayed treatment.
<hggdh> But we still need to triage: there are many more bugs than triagers; we have to be able to prioritise the bugs; we _should_ be able to address _all_ bugs eventually.
<hggdh> For us, then, triage is the process of analysing a bug, collecting enough data to completely describe it, marking the bug 'Triaged', and give it an importance.
<hggdh> Triage ends there -- it is not our responsibility to *solve* the bug: once the issue is identified, and all necessary and sufficient documentation has been added to the bug, triaging *ENDS*, and the bug goes on to a developer/maintainer to be worked on.
<ClassBot> sebsebseb asked: Why do Ubuntu developers hardly ever, if ever,  fix upstream bugs?
<hggdh> We do... ideally our corrections/patches should be submitted to the upstream for analysis and acceptance. Sometime, though, we do not have the time or expertise to deal with it
<hggdh> and we, then, rely on upstream's knowledge to solve it
<hggdh> also, a lot of times we end up submitting our fixes upstream without any indication it was fixed by Ubuntu contributors -- which causes others to think we do nothing :-(
<hggdh> sebsebseb,  did it help?
<hggdh> Back to the class: Again: triaging *ends* when a bug status is set to Triaged (see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Status).
<hggdh> This does not mean we do not solve bugs ourselves. Most of us wear a lot of hats, on (possibly) more than one project. But _triaging_ ends when the bug is set to Triaged.
<hggdh> sebsebseb, ^heh ;-)
<hggdh> Now, another important point is being able to differentiate between bugs (errors in a programme/package) and support issues (how to use a programme/package, how to set up something). We only deal with *bugs*.
<hggdh> Support requests should be redirected to one of the appropriate fora: http://askubuntu.com/, https://answers.launchpad.net/, http://ubuntuforums.org/, an appropriate IRC channel, etc.
<ClassBot> jledbetter asked: Can anyone triage? Say, for example, I see a bug that is new can I -- random user -- 'confirm' it? Anything I can do to help?
<hggdh> yes, anyone can help (and we *do* hope we will have help)
<hggdh> if one can confirm a bug -- exact same scenario, reproduced/reproducible, then marking the bug confirmed will help
<hggdh> also, please add a comment stating how you reached the conclusion that you could confirm
<hggdh> With that in mind...
<hggdh> DO: follow the advices and recommendations from jledbetter's class (that just ended): they can be used not only for finding more about your own issues, but *ALSO* for triaging somebody else's bugs.
<hggdh> DO: read https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugSquad/KnowledgeBase. Really. No kidding.
<hggdh> These pages give us a summary of all we learned during all the time we worked on triaging, what can be done, etc
<hggdh> DO: read the Code of Conduct (http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct).  A nice exposition of the CoC is also at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CodeOfConductGuidelines.
<hggdh> (if you wish to be a member of the BugSquad, we require that you sign it.)
<hggdh> This -- the CoC -- is perhaps the major difference between Ubuntu and other projects: we try very hard to live by it. *NOT* signing it does not free one from been required to be civil. So...
<hggdh> DO: be nice. Say 'please', and 'thank you'. It does help, a lot. Follow the Golden Rule (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Golden_Rule), *always*.
<hggdh> DO: keep in mind that English is the official language on https://bugs.launchpad.net, but _many_ UBuntu bug reporters are *not* native speakers of English. This means that many times we will get bugs that are badly written in English (or not in English at all).
<hggdh> DO: Try to understand. Ask for someone else to translate it if you do not speak (er, read) the language (hint: the #ubuntu-translators and #ubuntu-bug channels will probably have someone able to translate). Be nice -- always. "I cannot understand you" is, most of the times, *not* nice ;-)
<hggdh> But, if you really cannot understand state something like: "I am sorry, but I cannot understand <whatever>, could you please expand on yadda yadda and so on?"
<hggdh> (notice the "I am sorry", "please", etc)
<hggdh> Of course, "I am sorry, but you are an <expletive> " does NOT do the trick.
<hggdh> DO: ask for help on how to deal with a bug if you are unsure. Nobody knows it all, and we all started ignorant on bug triaging (and, pretty much, on everything else ;-). We have a mailing list (Ubuntu-bugsquad@lists.ubuntu.com), and we are always at the #ubuntu-bugs channel on freenode.
<hggdh> We will be more than happy to help out on procedures and requirements.
<hggdh> Please note that we do not _triage_ bugs there -- we will answer and help on procedures and requirements. We will, though, point out deficiencies and missing data, and suggest actions.
<hggdh> DO: _understand_ the problem. A lot of times we see a bug where a _consequence_ is described, but not the _cause_. The triager should do her/his best to understand which is which, and act accordingly. This may mean changing the bug's package, or rewriting the description, etc.
<hggdh> But... if we do not understand what is the problem, then how can we correct it?
<hggdh> There are many ways to do that; most will require learning ;-)
<hggdh> most, also have never been really ported/adapted to computing (differential diagnosis -- medicine --, fault trees -- nuclear reactors, rockets --, etc). So... right now, the best way is to learn more. To keep on learning. With time you will be able to _intuitively_ see a consequence.
<hggdh> -> keep in mind that *correlation is not causation* (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation).
<hggdh> DO: Try to ask and find answers for some questions: WHAT did happen? WHY did it happen? WHICH COMPONENTS are involved? HOW did it happen? HOW can it be REPEATED? What has CHANGED (if it worked before)?
<hggdh> So... you go on, aks the questions you fell pertinent, change the bug status (to Incomplete/New/Confirmed/Whatever). Now:
<hggdh> DO: add a comment on every action you take on the bug (changing status, importance, package, etc). Although for you it may be crystal-clear the reasons for taking an action, this may not be true for others (in fact, a lot of times it is not clear, at all...).
<hggdh> On the other hand...
<hggdh> DO NOT: add comments like "me too", "I also have it", "also a problem here", etc. These comments just pollute the bug, making it more difficult to find out what happened, where we are, and what is the next step.  INSTEAD:
<hggdh> DO: just mark the bug as "affects me too" (and subscribe to it, if you wish to know when the issue is resolved).
<hggdh> DO: if you are starting on triage, browse the open bugs (there are about 80,000 of them) and look for one you feel _comfortable_ with (or less uncomfortable ;-). Ideally, you should be able to reproduce it. It does help if you start with bugs on packages you yourself use.
<hggdh> And
<hggdh> DO: get on to #ubuntu-bugs, and ask for help there when in doubt. We do not bite... :-)
<hggdh> Oh, since we are here:
<hggdh> DO NOT: change a Triaged bug to New/Incomplete/Confirmed -- a triaged bug is OUT OF SCOPE for triaging. It is not our problem anymore (while wearing the triager's hat).
<hggdh> (or course, if I am the developer/maintainer of a package affected by a bug, I can move it out of Triaged if I understand the bug is missing critical data)
<hggdh> DO NOT: assign yourself (or any other person) to a bug. Bug assignment is a clear, official, signal that "the assignee is actively working on resolving this issue". Nobody else -- including the developers/maintainers -- will touch this bug anymore. Instead...
<hggdh> DO: so... if you are triaging, and have asked a question/requested action from the OP (Original Poster), *subscribe* to the bug. Nothing is worse than a fire-and-forget action.
<hggdh> DO NOT: confirm your own bugs. The fact that you see/experience a bug does not necessarily _make_ it a real bug. It may be something on your setup...
<hggdh> DO: follow suggested actions. For some packages we have more detailed 'howtos'. These are described under the https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingProcedures page. It is always a good idea to check them (and update/correct as needed).
<hggdh> Now, a lot of the packages we offer on Ubuntu come from different projects -- Debian, Gnome, GNU, etc. We call these projects -- where real development usually takes place -- "upstream". By the same reasoning, we say we are "downstream" from them.
<hggdh> The ideal scenario is we have our packages identical to what upstream provide, no local patches (except, probably, for packaging details).
<hggdh> Having local changes increases the delta (the difference between what we provide and what upstream provides), and makes updates/upgrades more costly. So our patches, ideally, should be provided to the upstream project, and discussed there (and hopefully accepted).
<hggdh> Bugs affecting upstream projects have to be communicated upstream. This usually means doing a similar triage as we do here for a specific upstream (looking for an identical bug on the upstream project, and opening one if none is found). So.
<hggdh> DO: Look upstream, and open a new bug if needed; then *link* this upstream bug to ours (and ours to theirs).
<hggdh> For example, for Gnome applications, the upstream BTS (Bug Tracking System) is at http://bugzilla.gnome.org.
<hggdh> Many upstreams have different rules on how to open/work with/close a bug. Ergo,
<hggdh> DO: follow upstream's processes when working upstream (in an old saying, "when you enter a community, abide by its laws").
<hggdh> Please note that this goes hand-in-hand with the CoC/Golden Rule. The fact that (in my original country) I could get to the beach wearing a speedo, does not make it nice (or even accepted) in the US (where I live).
<ClassBot> autif asked: absolutely silly question, bust asking just because you have not covered it in your chat - what bugs are you talking about - Ubuntu bugs? Do they include other derivatives like xubuntu, kubuntu etc? Where are the stored?
<hggdh> I am talking primarily about Ubuntu bugs; but, of course, all official Ubuntu derivatives (i.e., those that have the BTS on https://launchpad.net) would be dealt in the same way
<hggdh> this applies, for example, to Xubuntu, Mythbuntu, Kubuntu, etc. But some of those derivatives may have their own particular way of dealing with bugs
<hggdh> IIRC, for a while (at least) Kubuntu suggested opening K* bugs directly upstream.
<hggdh> But, even if they have special procedures, all I am stating here still applies in *full*. These DO/DONOT are really generic
<hggdh> Any other questions? I am almost done...
<hggdh> autif -- for some of the derivatives, you "assign" a bug to it by adding the project to the bug (for example, with Mythbuntu)
<ClassBot> IdleOne asked: IF we are affected by a bug that has been open for a long time and there doesn't seem to be any work going on with it, what can we do?
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<hggdh> First, the short answer: *help*
<hggdh> Now, the longer one:
<hggdh> there are many more bugs than there are triagers. We need all help we can get. So, triaging an old bug (even if on self-interest) _still_ helps
<hggdh> checking upstream, opening upstream, etc. Confirming it is still present on the current Development/ or last published Stable release helps
<hggdh> but, please not something like "I am tired of waiting for you slackers to get this resolved"
<hggdh> This will not really help. No real new data, confirmation it still happens, etc.
<hggdh> and indeed, a comment on a bug will bring it back up to those subscribed to it (I, for example, subscribe to all server packages)
<hggdh> and there was a old one that has just being brought back to my attention this way
<hggdh> with this said, and no more questions...
<hggdh> Thank you. I am glad you were here, and I hope you help us out. And we are always (er, at least there is always someone logged it, we also have a life) available to help and discuss triaging work.
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2010/10/15/%23ubuntu-classroom.html
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || UOW Survey: http://is.gd/fZlwL ||
<sebsebseb> Well no feedback session this time, so I want to provide some here :)  I enjoyed the sessions I asked questions in (more than one).  Accessability, Ubuntu in Education, Have you tried turning it off and on again, I also found very good.  Seemed we had a lack of people this time, so lack of questions for some of the sessions, which was ashame.
<pleia2> sebsebseb: there is a survey floating around, care to fill that out?
<akgraner> sebsebseb, thank you for your feed back - but can you fill this out as well - http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/GBSK33S
<sebsebseb> pleia2: I know there is, but I don't want to fill that in as such.
<hggdh> slacker... ;-)
<sebsebseb> akgraner: I might
<akgraner> it's only 10 questions and it will ensure all those involved will get your feedback
<pleia2> well, it would help us a lot if you did, it's hard to process a lot of people tossing suggestions are way :)
<pleia2> surveys++
<akgraner> sebsebseb, and everyone else who participated this week - thanks in advance for taking time to fill out the survey...  Much appreciated!
<sebsebseb> akgraner: you highlighted me with that, was that the idea?
<sebsebseb> ah I see
<sebsebseb> now
<akgraner> thanks everyone till next Ubuntu Week :-)
<charlie-tca> akgraner: thanks for setting this up
<sebsebseb> akgraner: well theres user days coming up before then I guess :)
<sebsebseb> pleia2: When is user days likely to be by the way?
<pleia2> probably january
<sebsebseb> pleia2: yeah every three months or so isn't it?
<pleia2> november and december just get too hard with all the holidays in the US
<sebsebseb> every three months after a release or something like that, isn't it?
<pleia2> it's variable, we're shooting for once per cycle though
<sebsebseb> ok :)
<sebsebseb> akgraner: i'll second charlie-tca thanks for setting this up
<akgraner> Thanks! I just helped  - :-)  Many thanks also need to go to jcastro, nhandler, nigelb, pleia2, Pendulum and the rest of the Classroom and Community teams.
<sebsebseb> akgraner: also I obviously look forward to the next Open Week and User Days :)
<akgraner> as do I :-)
<akgraner> gotta run - catch everyone later
<sebsebseb> akgraner: ok  bye bye
<jcastro> \o/
<jcastro> great job akgraner
<sebsebseb> Yep thanks for setting up Open Week people who did that,  plus to those that ran the sessions :)
<charlie-tca> thank you to all the people who set this week up. You put in a lot of work, and it is appreciated!
<sebsebseb> pleia2: uh ok I think i'll fill in the survey this time
<pleia2> thank you :)
<sebsebseb> pleia2: aimed at me I assume,  anyway I can skip most of it :D
<pleia2> well, anyone really who was wondering about whether they should ;)
<sebsebseb> I mean I don't  need to fill in session speaker stuff, since didn't do that.
<jledbetter> pleia2: What are all the different days/weeks? Developer Week? App Developer Week? User Day(s)? Open Week?
<akgraner> jledbetter, Ubuntu Developer Week, Ubuntu App Developer Week, Ubuntu Open Week, Ubuntu User Days, Ubuntu LoCo days
<jledbetter> akgraner: Is there a list of them with schedule? I don't remember LoCo days.
<akgraner> Various Packaging Days, Kernel Triage Summits and other classes as people some up with ideas
<akgraner> yep one secv
<akgraner> sec
<akgraner> jledbetter, as they are scheduled they will show up on this Calendar - http://ubuntu-news.org/calendars/classroom/
<jledbetter> I saw something on the learning fridge? calendar that said a python session is this weekend but it's part 5 or somesuch.
<akgraner> yep
<jledbetter> Ah ok. Thanks :) But what /are/ LoCo days?
<akgraner> jledbetter, they are new ones so I am not exactly sure let me get you the wiki page link
<sebsebseb> akgraner: About to submit the survey
<akgraner> sebsebseb, thanks!
<akgraner> jledbetter, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom  it's not on here yet but I am sure it will be soon - if the LoCo days are still a go
<jledbetter> akgraner: Understood. Thank you :)
<serfus> akgraner, jcastro and everyone else who were involved in this week - great job! i learned allot. so thank you and keep up the good work :)
<akgraner> thank you!
<jcastro> it was mostly akgraner and the rest of the -classroom team!
<akgraner> jcastro, is our safety net
<sebsebseb> akgraner: Ok submitted, took me a little longer than planned, since  editing text and so on, but yep done.
<jledbetter> akgraner: Do the session leaders get feedback from the surveys?
<sebsebseb> jledbetter: apparently so
<jledbetter> sebsebseb: Great!
<sebsebseb> jledbetter: Hope they liked my survey response,  pretty good feedback I did I think,  plus said who it was from, even though I didn't have to.
<jledbetter> sebsebseb: Great. :) Thank you. I know I love feedback.
<sebsebseb> Oh something I didn't mention in the survey is that Open Week should probably be advertised better next time, so more people turn up,  using #ubuntu would be one way to do it.
#ubuntu-classroom 2010-10-16
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || UOW Survey: http://is.gd/fZlwL || Event: Beginners Team Dev Academy - Current Session: Introduction to Python: Part 5 - Instructors: pedro3005
<pedro3005> Hello folks
<pedro3005> Can whoever's here raise hands?
<pedro3005> Good, good
<pedro3005> Well, let me talk a bit about the class itself now
<pedro3005> We're nearing the end
<pedro3005> If you check out the official python tutorial, we're almost done with the basic python. From this point on they start talking about the standard library
<pedro3005> Which is huge
<pedro3005> So I won't be going over every detail of that
<pedro3005> But with the knowledge you have from these classes, you will have no problem understanding the docs
<pedro3005> hopefully
<pedro3005> So last class we were talking about functions, dictionaries, files...
<pedro3005> does anyone have any question or doubt?
<pedro3005> Good.
<pedro3005> So, today we can discuss a very important aspect of programming
<pedro3005> no matter how much care you take in writing your code, things will screw up at some point
<pedro3005> it happens
<pedro3005> That's why we have to discuss error handling
<pedro3005> Fortunately, Python has a system which makes it all easy
<pedro3005> Hence exceptions!
<pedro3005> An exception is an error form raised when something bad happens
<pedro3005> for instance, let's look at this case
<pedro3005> We learned about type conversion
<pedro3005> What happens if you try to do int("a") ?
<pedro3005> >>> int("a")
<pedro3005> Traceback (most recent call last):
<pedro3005>   File "<stdin>", line 1, in <module>
<pedro3005> ValueError: invalid literal for int() with base 10: 'a'
<pedro3005> The most interesting part here for us is the last line
<pedro3005> notice the name ValueError
<pedro3005> that's the name of a python exception
<pedro3005> which was raised in this case because there's no way to convert the string "a" to an int
<pedro3005> This exception being raised caused our program to fail
<pedro3005> now that's a very bad thing
<pedro3005> But fortunately, we can catch that exception
<pedro3005> that is, acknowledge in our code that if it happens, the program shouldn't crash, but instead do what you tell it to!
<pedro3005> Now, how do we do that?
<pedro3005> we wrap it in a try block
<pedro3005> Take this example
<pedro3005> we received input from the user
<pedro3005> age = raw_input("What is your age? ")
<pedro3005> now, he might've typed his age, a number, or maybe something else
<pedro3005> if we directly try to do int(age), it might work, but it might also fail pretty bad
<pedro3005> remember raw_input() is of type STRING
<pedro3005> we want to make it an integer, because that makes sense for an age variable
<pedro3005> So what do we do? Well, we can wrap the int(age) in a try block
<pedro3005> try:
<pedro3005>     age = int(age)
<pedro3005> except ValueError:
<pedro3005>     print "You didn't input a valid age"
<pedro3005> You can add an else block after all the exception catches
<pedro3005> that will be ran if no exception was caught
<pedro3005> in this example
<pedro3005> else:
<pedro3005>     print "The age is valid"
<pedro3005> We have other built-in expressions
<pedro3005> I mean exceptions
<pedro3005> sorry
<pedro3005> in fact you can see them all here http://docs.python.org/library/exceptions.html#bltin-exceptions
<pedro3005> let's analyse for instance the case of a dictionary
<pedro3005> Suppose you have a dict
<pedro3005> and you try to access an element which is not there
<pedro3005> >>> a = {}
<pedro3005> >>> a["bla"]
<pedro3005> Traceback (most recent call last):
<pedro3005>   File "<stdin>", line 1, in <module>
<pedro3005> KeyError: 'bla'
<pedro3005> It raises the KeyError exception
<pedro3005> So, suppose your dict is mapping person -> age
<pedro3005> but age is still type string
<pedro3005> we have
<pedro3005> ages = {"Joe": "20", "Mary": "30"}
<pedro3005> and our program has two interfaces
<pedro3005> one which allows you to input a new person and their age
<pedro3005> and another one which allows you to see a person's age
<pedro3005> unfortunately, some user mapped a name e.g. "Foo" to a non-numerical string, "Bar"
<pedro3005> so when we try to convert that to int we'll get a ValueError expression
<pedro3005> but it could happen that a user also tries to access a non-existing person in this dict
<pedro3005> one min please
<pedro3005> We might need to catch BOTH exceptions
<pedro3005> that is easy, we just stick them in a tuple
<pedro3005> that is
<pedro3005> except (ValueError, KeyError):
<pedro3005>     handle_error()
<pedro3005> assuming we have a handle_error() function here
<pedro3005> the outcome isn't really important in our present analysis
<pedro3005> Now, it could happen that you see something like this
<pedro3005> except:
<pedro3005>     pass
<pedro3005> Let's analyse that
<pedro3005> the 'pass' keyword is a placeholder
<pedro3005> you can use it when python is expecting something to be there but you don't want it to do anything
<pedro3005> so 'pass' is telling python to do nothing
<pedro3005> the except: statement alone will catch ANY exception
<pedro3005> So this block would be saying that if any exception happens, do nothing about it
<pedro3005> That is poor practice!
<pedro3005> You should always try to specify the exception
<pedro3005> or maybe use except: to later write it down in a log
<pedro3005> To do that, you may use the traceback module
<pedro3005> simply import traceback and use the command traceback.print_last() for instance, to get the last exception
<pedro3005> or, if you catch it in a try block
<pedro3005> you can write it to a file
<pedro3005> a log file
<pedro3005> traceback.print_exc(file=log)
<pedro3005> assuming you have created the log file descriptor
<pedro3005> Take this program, for example
<pedro3005> here I will use sys.stdout so you can all see the outcome
<pedro3005> but it could just as well have been any file descriptor
<pedro3005> >>> import sys, traceback
<pedro3005> >>> def run():
<pedro3005> ...     age = raw_input("Enter your age: ")
<pedro3005> ...     try:
<pedro3005> ...             age = int(age)
<pedro3005> ...     except:
<pedro3005> ...             traceback.print_exc(file=sys.stdout)
<pedro3005> ...
<pedro3005> >>> run()
<pedro3005> Enter your age: foo
<pedro3005> Traceback (most recent call last):
<pedro3005>   File "<stdin>", line 4, in run
<pedro3005> ValueError: invalid literal for int() with base 10: 'foo'
<pedro3005> The traceback module has other functions, and as always, you can learn about them here http://docs.python.org/library/traceback.html
<pedro3005> Questions?
<pedro3005> Ok
<pedro3005> let's have a quick look at import statements then
<pedro3005> to pave the road for modules
<pedro3005> We have been using them for a while
<pedro3005> the import statement brings a module into your program
<pedro3005> for instance
<pedro3005> >>> import math
<pedro3005> >>> math.sqrt(math.pi)
<pedro3005> 1.7724538509055159
<pedro3005> we can also use the 'as' keyword
<pedro3005> >>> import math as magic
<pedro3005> >>> magic.sqrt(10)
<pedro3005> 3.1622776601683795
<pedro3005> and we have the 'from' keyword
<pedro3005> we can use that to import only a specific attribute we want
<pedro3005> >>> from math import cos
<pedro3005> >>> cos(0)
<pedro3005> 1.0
<pedro3005> notice we did cos(0) and not math.cos(0)
<pedro3005> because with the 'from' keyword we're importing it directly onto our namespace
<pedro3005> similarly you can use * to mean everything
<pedro3005> >>> from math import *
<pedro3005> >>> sqrt(factorial(5))
<pedro3005> 10.954451150103322
<pedro3005> Questions?
<pedro3005> Good
<pedro3005> You can import your own file
<pedro3005> for instance
<pedro3005> let's say you made a function which checks if a number is odd
<pedro3005> in your file odd.py
<pedro3005> def is_odd(x):
<pedro3005>     return x % 2 != 0
<pedro3005> let's look at that function closer
<pedro3005> it seems a bit weird
<pedro3005> but it makes sense
<pedro3005> x % 2 != 0 is a boolean expression
<pedro3005> it will be evaluated to either True or False
<pedro3005> and that's what we return
<pedro3005> any questions about that?
<pedro3005> good
<pedro3005> now, in a python terminal we can import that file
<pedro3005> if we open it in the same folder
<pedro3005> >>> import odd
<pedro3005> >>> odd.is_odd(5)
<pedro3005> True
<pedro3005> now let's look at a line present in many python scripts
<pedro3005> if you have analyzed some, you maybe have noticed it
<pedro3005> towards the bottom it has something like
<pedro3005> if __name__ == "__main__":
<pedro3005> What does that mean?
<pedro3005> It basically checks if the script was called directly "python odd.py" or imported
<pedro3005> if it was imported, the if check fails
<pedro3005> so let's suppose that if someone runs 'python odd.py' you want to display the message "Welcome to odd.py"
<pedro3005> but if someone imports it from another program or shell, then do nothing
<pedro3005> let's add that line
<pedro3005> if __name__ == "__main__":
<pedro3005>     print "Welcome to odd.py!"
<pedro3005> now if we run it directly, we get the message
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<pedro3005> [pedro@pedro ~]$ python odd.py
<pedro3005> Welcome to odd.py!
<pedro3005> but if we import it instead
<pedro3005> >>> import odd
<pedro3005> >>>
<pedro3005> nothing :)
<pedro3005> So to end today let's talk about command line arguments
<pedro3005> they're like when you call a program with certain parameters
<pedro3005> 'ls -a'
<pedro3005> -a is an argument
<pedro3005> just like in a function
<pedro3005> our python programs can have that to
<pedro3005> first we need to import the module sys
<pedro3005> import sys
<pedro3005> then, the arguments can be accessed in sys.argv
<pedro3005> let's try that
<pedro3005> in our arg.py file we have
<pedro3005> import sys
<pedro3005> print sys.argv
<pedro3005> so let's call it
<pedro3005> [pedro@pedro ~]$ python arg.py these are arguments
<pedro3005> ['arg.py', 'these', 'are', 'arguments']
<pedro3005> well
<pedro3005> what if I set that as executable via chmod
<pedro3005> then I need to add our good old shebang line
<pedro3005> #!/usr/bin/env python
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<pedro3005> to the start of our program
<pedro3005> and by calling it the exact same way we get the same thing
<pedro3005> [pedro@pedro ~]$ ./arg.py these are arguments
<pedro3005> ['./arg.py', 'these', 'are', 'arguments']
<pedro3005> Now, if you're a C programmer, you might be wondering about sys.argc, but that is not needed. Since we have a great list functionality, we can merely use len(sys.argv)
<pedro3005> which is the count of how many command line arguments we have
<pedro3005> Questions?
<pedro3005> Well, good
<pedro3005> that marks the end of today's session
<pedro3005> Hope you all had a good time
<pedro3005> thanks for the attention
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2010/10/16/%23ubuntu-classroom.html
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || UOW Survey: http://is.gd/fZlwL ||
<palhmbs> where are logs for this channel?
<palhmbs> ah - never mind
<palhmbs> how long does it take for logs to be populated?
<nigelb> palhmbs: should be ready now
<palhmbs> yep - got them
<palhmbs> thanks
<palhmbs> only just found about this - #ubuntu-classroom thing - it's awesome
<nigelb> \o/
<palhmbs> nigelb, your involved with the Ubuntu Youth team?
<nigelb> palhmbs: no, but I am involved with the classroom team
<palhmbs> I'm 32, is their a middle-aged group for beginners?
<nigelb> well, there's the beginners team
<nigelb> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam
<palhmbs> ah, I want to be more involved with Ubuntu, help - I've joined Openhatch.org - heard of it?
<nigelb> yeah, paulproteus wrote it
<palhmbs> I've been trying to get Gobby-0.5 connecting to gobby's main server....
<palhmbs> would gobby be a good way to teach programming?
<nigelb> It would if you can find someone willing to teach :)
<palhmbs> nigelb, do you know when the calendar will be updated, I don't see any stuff for the next 2 weeks?
<nigelb> palhmbs: that's because there isn't anything for the next 2 weeks
<palhmbs> nigelb, oh well, gives me opportunity to read the logs for the next 2 weeks.... I suppose
<nigelb> heh :)
#ubuntu-classroom 2010-10-17
<vishwa> clear
<wisevoyager> Hello everybody! have a nice day!!!
#ubuntu-classroom 2011-10-11
<sloop_> hello
#ubuntu-classroom 2011-10-12
<cas> hi
<saleem> apw
#ubuntu-classroom 2011-10-13
<yonathan> is it out yet?
#ubuntu-classroom 2011-10-16
<kermit_> hello all
#ubuntu-classroom 2012-10-08
<shookees> hi
#ubuntu-classroom 2014-10-09
 * DistroFeud lifts is hand!
<DistroFeud> any pedos in here?
<genii> DistroFeud: There are currently no classroom sessions in progress. But if there were, the questions would be asked in #ubuntu-classroom-chat and then answered in here
<genii> DistroFeud: You've already been booted from other channels for this same behaviour, so I would not recommend continuing.
<DistroFeud> i already have the fame
<DistroFeud> why should i stop now?
<genii> Fine.
<DistroFeud> you already send me on this path
