#launchpad-yellow 2011-09-26
<gary_poster> whee! 1 weekend = 742 emails...
<gary_poster> aloha and welcome to Monday
<gary_poster> bac benji danilos gmb, call in 2 (yes, gimme an extra minute)
<gmb> ok
<danilos> aloha :)
<bac> ok
 * gmb -> late lunch
<gary_poster> kids -> school
<gary_poster> gmb, I'm just starting reading your LEP.  I think sometimes there are two useful sorts of feedback (along one axis): feedback when someone is reading something for the very first time, and feedback after they have thought about it.  The first can give you ideas on how to make the information more accessible, and the second actually gives thoughtful feedback on the ideas contained.  So, I'm immediately ready to give
<gary_poster> Would you like me to enter it here as I go, or in an email, or at the bottom of the LEP, or some other way?
<gmb> gary_poster: Email or at the bottom of the LEP is fine; I'm trying to get my head around the upload stuff at the moment and could do without the interruptions for a wee while.
<gary_poster> cool, gmb will do
<gary_poster> gmb, thank you for the LEP.  my comments/thoughts got long :-P .  I put them on a separate page. No rush for a reply for me--getting back to other things now. :-) https://dev.launchpad.net/LEP/BugRelationships/GaryComments
<gmb> gary_poster: Okay, thanks.
<gary_poster> welcome
 * gary_poster has now done pretty much everything he can do before working on the bug he has no motivation for :-P
<gary_poster> procrastination time is over...
<bac> hi gary_poster, want a diversion?
<gary_poster> ooh, bac!  yes!
<bac> skype?
<gary_poster> :-) sure, call when ready
<bac> gary_poster: skype crashed
<bac> trying again
<gary_poster> ok
<bac> https://pastebin.canonical.com/53395/
<bac> benji, gary_poster: either of you updated your tree lately?  the addition of txlongpoll is breaking mine
<gary_poster> bac, I did last week, and I think txlongpoll was in it then.  Can try again now...
<benji> bac: I haven't.  And now I'm scared to. ;)
<bac> yeah, be scared.  :)
<gary_poster> bac, what's your symptom?
<bac> i only did to get gary's new storm recorder
<bac> gary_poster: make build failes on installing txlongpoll
<bac> from bin/buildout
<bac> Installing txlongpoll.
<bac> While:
<bac>   Installing txlongpoll.
<bac>   Getting distribution for 'oops-twisted'.
<bac> Error: Picked: oops-twisted = 0.0.1
<gary_poster> bac, hm.  updating now
 * bac flashback to friday, writ large
<gary_poster> bac, duplicated.  investigating
<bac> oops_twisted-0.0.1.tar.gz is in download-cache/dist
<gary_poster> bac, the good news is that it should be easy to fix.  versions.cfg is missing.  The bad news is that this should never have happened
<gary_poster> our landing machinery should have caught ths
 * gary_poster will try to fix
<bac> i recall txlongpoll had a versions.cfg last week.  it was testresources that was ugly
<gary_poster> bac, yeah, simple fix
<gary_poster> it is still building...
<gary_poster> other stuff
<gary_poster> will get you diff
<bac> thanks
 * bac brb
<gary_poster> trying to land testfix.  Bah
<gary_poster> conflicts in work I was in middle of
<gary_poster> bac, fwiw, I'm landing testfix via lp-land...
<gary_poster> ...succeeded
<bac> gary_poster: cool.  to the txlongpoll package or lp?
<gary_poster> bac, so just bzr pull and should work
<gary_poster> bzr lp
<gary_poster> I mean, bac, lp
<bac> thanks!
<gary_poster> welcome
<bac> gary_poster: your statement recorder suggestion is great.  i've discovered this offensive action:
<bac> 'UPDATE BugTask SET status=10 WHERE BugTask.id = 38'
<gary_poster> bac, cool!  What is triggering that?
<bac> sadly, the traceback only points to the line of the flush() so i'm still searching
<gary_poster> oh, suck
<bac> yeah
<gary_poster> hm
 * bac wishes for a 'watch' command in pdb
<gary_poster> bac, what flush is this?
<bac> the one at the bottom of bugtaskset:createTask
<benji> bac: I haven't used it, but http://pypi.python.org/pypi/pdbpp has a watch command ("display" is their spelling)
<bac> benji: great, i'll have a look
<bac> @break_on_setattr('bar')  <-- Nice!
<gary_poster> bye
<benji> that is nice
#launchpad-yellow 2011-09-27
<benji> gary_poster: a church friend is taking Katie to the one doctor appointment so I just added a half vacation day for Thursday afternoon to take her to the other
<gary_poster> benji, somehow missed that IRC msg, but I see it now, thanks.  I'll go approve
<benji> thanks
<gary_poster> approved
<gary_poster> bac benji danilos gmb, call in 2
<bac> ko
<gmb> ok
<danilos> gary_poster, actually I am on, headset doesn't work
<danilos> gary_poster, yeah, you are on the speakers :)
<danilos> hanging up so I fix that :)
<gary_poster> danilos keeps rejecting my Skype overtures
<danilos> sorry
<danilos> my microphone still doesn't work
<danilos> gary_poster, haha :)
<danilos> gary_poster, incidentlog (linked from it)?
<danilos> gary_poster, I'll check it up, ok
<danilos> danilos, I have plenty of things to say! :)
<danilos> gary_poster, ^
<danilos> gary_poster, nah, just kidding, thanks :)
<danilos> ok, microphone fixed, I had to install libpulse0:i386 now that skype is installed in an entirely different way
<benji> oops, I logged into the Canonical server twice
 * gmb -> late lunch / errands
<gary_poster> early early lunch (== taking care of baby while wife is out)
<bac> gary_poster: got a sec for a skype?
<gary_poster> sure bac
<gary_poster> logged on now bac
<benji> How does ec2 land communicate with PQM?  I had an ec2 run that ended without me getting any notification.  It at least started and ran for the expected amount of time.
<bac> gary_poster: https://pastebin.canonical.com/53482/
<gary_poster> benji, it sends an email
<bac> benji: like all PQM submissions it is via email
<gary_poster> bac, looking
<gary_poster> bac, try
<gary_poster> !print rec
<benji> hmm, I recently changed my bzr whoami setting (because ec2 land stopped working because my GPG key has my benji@benjiyork.com address not my @canonical.com address); I wonder if that is the problem.
<gary_poster> oh, but that gives you more than you want bac
<gary_poster> benji, that sounds suspucious, certainly
<benji> ("p rec" is easier to type)
<benji> (and "pp rec" is pretty-printed)
<gary_poster> the pretty print won't help here; it is a string
<gary_poster> so in fact !print is nicer
<gary_poster> (p will give you \n s in it and stuff)
<benji> sounds like you need ppp ;)
<gary_poster> :-)
<benji> oh you're right, I always forget that "p" is really the repr, that's stupid
<gary_poster> except when it's not :-)
<bac> gary_poster:  hey, cool, the __repr__ is much nicer than the parts
<gary_poster> yeah
<bac> let me paste that
<bac> and you don't need the !  :)
<gary_poster> heh, I am paranoid in pdb
<benji> well, if "p" did print, then if you wanted the repr you could just do "!rec"
<gary_poster> true, benji
<bac> https://pastebin.canonical.com/53484/
<benji> I could just make an alias to override "p".  I guess an economist would say that I therefore don't really care.
<gary_poster> OK, so that's as we expected, to some degree, bac: the first thing that happens is the insert, then something else happens.  I would personally just be stupid and put a pdb right before the flush now.  Another approach would be to instrument the storm stuff and then put a conditional exactly when what we care about happens.  I'll describe that, since it might be more practical
<gary_poster> so the easiest thing to do to add instrumentation in these tracebacks is to make a variable that has the name __traceback_info__, with the values that you care about, bac
<bac> gary_poster: i've stepped into the flush at the point where we're concerned but didn't see anything suspicious, just the one newly created bugtask in the _dirty list not the one for generic_task
<gary_poster> so in flush I might stash obj_info
<bac> ok
<gary_poster> bac, right, what we want to know is when the _dirty is mutated, and then by whom
<bac> ok
<bac> so, just create a local var called __traceback_info__?
<gary_poster> bac, then in _flush_one we could scribble expr in there I guess...thinking...
<gary_poster> yeah, bac, it will be str'ed
<gary_poster> bac, here's my crazy plan, I think:
<gary_poster> you do that, then we will have the expression that is sent initially through _flush_one
<gary_poster> then in _flush_one, right before _connection.execute, you set a pdb if that expression is there.  That way we don't have to press a mind-numbing collection of "continue"s in pdb
<gary_poster> then we look at _dirty.
<gary_poster> then after each line we look at dirty, being particularly suspicious of _enable_change_notification and _add_to_alive
<gary_poster> until we see when _dirty has been mutated
<gary_poster> then we know what to step into
<gary_poster> then we re-run, and we actually step into it.  Or similar
<gary_poster> bac, end of crazy plan.
<bac> ok, so in flush_one i've put in obj_info
<bac> into the traceback
<gary_poster> also expr, bac
<gary_poster> of
<gary_poster> oh
<gary_poster> that won't work
<bac> trying...see what happens
<gary_poster> because it is an instance
<gary_poster> bac, so maybe "changes"? ok
<bac> gary_poster: btw, for those following along at home, the endoscopy didn't work so the vet is doing real surgery.  :(
<gary_poster> bac :-(
<gary_poster> bac, what is the object?
<bac> benji: over in #lp-dev sackett is complaining of pqm woes.  maybe y'all should compare notes.
<benji> bac: thanks, I hadn't noticed
<gary_poster> bac, about to get on call with flacoste
<gary_poster> will check in with you after
<gary_poster> bac, I'm off call
<bac> gary_poster: got distracted with some CHR stuff from abentley
<gary_poster> np bac, I have my own mysteries (Trying to work with the new pgbouncer fixture)
#launchpad-yellow 2011-09-28
<gary_poster> hm, why hello there, 8:28
<gary_poster> bac, benji, danilos, gmb, call in 2
<danilos> gary_poster, 14:28 says hello back :)
<gary_poster> heh
<gary_poster> danilos, I was just saying that flacoste suggested you help bac with bug 759467 so that he could work with you sooner on the milestone bug.  I dunno if that makes sense to bac.  Certainly you can investigate the milestone thing while you are waiting, and if you've already made significant progress by the time he is back (or now already?), go on your own or something
<_mup_> Bug #759467: incomplete-with-response searches require complex searches <Launchpad itself:Triaged by lifeless> < https://launchpad.net/bugs/759467 >
<danilos> gary_poster, so, if I understood correctly, I could try to help out bac with 759467 so he'd be able to help me sooner? :)
<gary_poster> danilos, no, you misunderstand entirely! ;-)
<gary_poster> danilos, I mean instead that you could try to help out bac with 759467 so he'd be able to help you sooner! Very different!
<danilos> gary_poster, right, I'd be happy to do that then, and I've already spent some time investigating bug 480123 (milestone thing), but wouldn't want to go further without actually getting bac's input
<_mup_> Bug #480123: Milestone names/version should be unique to series <escalated> <linaro> <lp-registry> <Launchpad itself:In Progress by danilo> < https://launchpad.net/bugs/480123 >
<gary_poster> ok cool
<danilos> gary_poster, heh, ok, ok :)
<gary_poster> :-)
<danilos> gary_poster, btw, do you have any idea what's up with 759467? lifeless claims it's test failures in the bug, but I wonder where did bac get to
<gary_poster> danilos, lifeless had a branch which bac has been trying to get to a landable state.  He has made progress with reconciling various bits, but he has had some odd test problems with a failing test and storm store.flush side effects.  I've tried to help him with that; he was deep in storm internals when I left him yesterday evening
<danilos> gary_poster, ok, so should I wait for him or should I pick up his branch (if he has pushed it) and run with it? iow, is he showing up today? :)
<gary_poster> danilos, wait for him to start on that.  He will be showing up today, but I don't know when.
<danilos> gary_poster, ok, understood, thanks :)
<gary_poster> thanks danilos
<bac> hi danilos
<danilos> bac, hi
<bac> danilos: so you're asking about bug 759467?
<_mup_> Bug #759467: incomplete-with-response searches require complex searches <Launchpad itself:Triaged by lifeless> < https://launchpad.net/bugs/759467 >
<danilos> bac, yeah, I was wondering if I can help you out a bit
<bac> danilos: that'd be great.  want to have a quick call?
<danilos> bac, sure, let's do it
<bac> k
<danilos> bac, call me wheneve you are ready
<bac> danilos: the branch is lp:~bac/launchpad/bug-759467
<bac> danilos: the failure can be seen with
<bac>  bin/test -vvm lp.bugs -t test_creating_conjoined_task_gets_synced_attributes
<danilos> bac, I am fetching it now
<bac> thanks
<danilos> bac, I wasn't able to realize anything, but I admit I was just getting my head around conjoined tasks and all the stuff in there; unfortunately, I have to leave in a few mins so I won't be able to look at it further until tomorrow morning
<bac> danilos: thanks anyway.  have a good night.
<danilos> bac, just drop me a note here if you don't get it sorted, I am sorry I couldn't be of a bigger help (fwiw, the entire logic for _syncFromConjoinedSlave sounds backward to me, but as I said, I haven't wrapped my head around it just yet)
<benji> gary_poster: I'm about to take lunch, but if you get a chance, read my comment on bug 834427.  Right now I think the best fix is to fix Pygments.
<_mup_> Bug #834427: codebrowse is hanging/non responsive <canonical-losa-lp> <Launchpad itself:In Progress by benji> < https://launchpad.net/bugs/834427 >
<gary_poster> benji, ok will look now
<gary_poster> benji, sounds right to me on the face of it.  Note that we already have a custom Pygments because Georg did not take another fix we need--versions.cfg has a note about this so you can get the details (and versions.cfg is where you should note other changes like this that are not using an official version, in case that is what this requires)
<benji> gary_poster: cool, thanks for the info
<gary_poster> welcome
#launchpad-yellow 2011-09-29
 * danilos -> lunch
<gary_poster> bac benji danilos (gmb sick :-( ): call in 2
<benji> g*ry: RT is 48196
<danilos> bac is fighting irc problems, he'll be unavailable on IRC while that's going on
<gary_poster> danilos, thanks for update on bac.  I need to take kids to school today, so I will be a bit late.  Will 20 minutes past the hour still work for you, or should we reschedule?
<danilos> gary_poster, that's fine
<gary_poster> thanks danilos.  ready any time
<danilos> gary_poster, hey, still not used to non-existent notifications :)
<gary_poster> heh
<gary_poster> benji, when would you like a call this morning?  Any time is good for me.
<benji> gary_poster: sure; how about now?
<gary_poster> benji, a fine idea.  Gimme a call!
<bac> hi danilos
<bac> danilos: the original failing test is bugs/doc/bugtask.txt at line 335.  the scenario presented there is the one i've tried to recreate in the unit test.
<danilos> bac, right, let me take a look at as well
<danilos> bac, hum, right, I think I see the point now
<bac> ok
<bac> danilos: my understanding of conjoinedness is not deep, so i don't deny that i may have gotten them backwards but the doctest regression looks real
<bac> btw, anyone have an idea how long fsck should take on a 1TB disk?
<danilos> bac, yeah, it all seems right, in this special case when a master is being created after slave, it copies stuff from slave back to master
<danilos> bac, so, I think the problem is the storm validator: createTask creates a task with status set to NEW, which calls on the storm validator for status field, which changes the slave version back to the just-created master version
<bac> danilos: yes, i was looking at that...before my server died
<bac> danilos: but none of that code has changed...
<danilos> bac, well, at least the column is being renamed from status to _status :)
<bac> danilos: yeah, there is that...
<danilos> bac, fwiw, I can also see arbitrary SQL queries using ._status and others using .status which kind of confuses me
<danilos> that could be storm vs sqlobject stuff, but just very confusing
<danilos> bac, so, I could confirm that the NEW status is set by the validator, and what's else validate_status is called 9 times now, whereas stable did it 7 times for the same test (your earlier one)
<danilos> bac, fwiw, doctest does seem to break with all those _status usages in plain-text SQL queries (as I expected) when validator is removed, so it seems the branch was more unfinished then you hoped for :)
<bac> danilos: yeah, that's my fear.  fix this blocking problem only to find a ton more
<danilos> bac, ok, so the problem is that on stable, self.bug in validator is not set, yet in this branch it is
<danilos> bac, basically, it seems that bug gets flushed earlier with all the changes
<benji> I'm going away now.  I suspect I'll keep meditating upon the visions of Python regexes which parse Perl regexes that are swirling around in my head though.
<bac> danilos: ah, interesting
<danilos> bac, I actually dislike the extension to enum columns lifeless did, I find code that mixes two different DBEnums for a single value very confusing :/
<bac> danilos: how would you do it?
<danilos> bac, usual class inheritance, like we do it everywhere else
<danilos> (we can't have one class that derives from two DBEnumeratedTypes though, but we can have non-dbenum classes as base combining classes)
<gary_poster> lunch
 * danilos -> off, tty tomorrow
<bac> hi gary_poster, i think (with danilos' help) i now understand what is going on...but i need to discuss it
<gary_poster> bac, ok, cool.  now is fine, or later
<bac> gary_poster: now would be good
<gary_poster> we can segue into our weekly call if you want
<gary_poster> cool
<gary_poster> call me when ready bac
<bac> gary i'll resume our call in a sec
<gary_poster> bac ok, I'm back
<bac> me too
#launchpad-yellow 2011-09-30
<bac> hi danilos
<danilos> bac, hi (sorry, was out)
<danilos> bac, so, I am eager to find out, what was the bug you mentioned? :)
<gary_poster> Guten Tag, meinen Herren.
<gary_poster> gmb still has grue
<bac> hola
<gary_poster> bac, benji, danilos, call in 2
<bac> danilos: now you can just escalate all of those translation bugs you wanted to see fixed
<danilos> bac, heh, yeah, I don't think I'd stay long in linaro if I just did that :))
<danilos> though, if I do it in a smart and involved way, who knows...
 * danilos starts devising a plan...
<bac> gary_poster: i see deryck is using g+ hangouts for his team.  want to give that a try some time?
<gary_poster> bac, sure that might be fun
<gary_poster> that would be the first usage of my g+ account ;-)
<gary_poster> bac, I can investigate what is needed to set it up, or I'm happy for you to do it if you want
<bac> i will
<bac> gary_poster: i've invited you.  (you might not have meant "now")
<gary_poster> bac, lol, now is fine
 * bac is amused to find the ASCII cow in our doctests
<gary_poster> my network connection suxors today for some reason
<bac> gary_poster, benji: i'm reviewing a branch that uses "string".format() rather than interpolation.  i see we don't appear to use that construct elsewhere in our code.  any argument against using it?
<gary_poster> bac, none from me; AFAIK that's "the way of the future" or somesuch
<bac> hoorah.  i've learned my one thing for the day!
 * gary_poster wonders when the hangout will start
<benji> yeah that the python 3 way
<gary_poster> heh
<bac> hanging out is pretty boring, it seems
<gary_poster> heh, particularly if no one is hanging out with you
<bac> benji: cool.  i'll mark his branch NEEDS FIXING to go change all of the existing interpolations to use format()
 * gary_poster trying
<gary_poster> bac, heh, don't do that to me! :-)
<bac> gary_poster: i do like the sad robot with party balloons imagery
<gary_poster> bac, as I said, my connection suxors: I still don't have the plugin...ah there it is...
<gary_poster> bac, Google is unhappy
<bac> well that was underwhelming
<gary_poster> bac, invite me again?
<gary_poster> oh, I see
<gary_poster> I'll try bac
<gary_poster> bac, I see the sad robot now.  poor me.
<gary_poster> benji, you can try it out now too
<gary_poster> I sent you an invite
<gary_poster> oh look, my Finder is unhappy.  That's always a bad sign
<benji> eww, there's a required plugin?
<gary_poster> benji, oh yeah
<gary_poster> bac, hm, yeah, tell me how it is working out for deryck :-)
<gary_poster> seems a little rough around the edges so far
<gary_poster> where that equates to "mostly unusable"
<bac> i don't remember installing a plug in.  i don't think i'd used it before.  perhaps i did.
<gary_poster> Yeah I definitely did.  Maybe it is the same as Google chat
<benji> oh, ant it's auido/video?  I'm not a fan already.
<gary_poster> I hadn't used that in a long time
<gary_poster> heh
<gary_poster> you can mute video fwiw benji :-)
<benji> I went one step further, I don't have a camera.
<gary_poster> heh
<benji> I see a lonely robot
 * gary_poster tries to join again so benji is not lonely
<gary_poster> or so that the poor lonely robot doesn't have to hang out with benji :-P
<gary_poster> bac I invited you again because it such fun
<gary_poster> benji is here now
<gary_poster> ok bac and benji, I think that may have ben about as much fun as I can handle.  It does appear to be as much fun as my network connection can handle
<gary_poster> which is odd because it's usually pretty awesome
<benji> yep, for wome reason you seem to be the weak link
<gary_poster> The Weakest Link!
<benji> now just need a british lady with short hair to scowl at you
<gary_poster> :-)
<gary_poster> bac, I know you are really hoping for lots of reviews today, so I'm happy to oblige: https://code.launchpad.net/~gary/launchpad/bug844631/+merge/77725
<bac> yay
<bac> gary_poster: actually i'm in a better mood:  Total: 1123 tests, 0 failures, 0 errors in 47 minutes 25.397 seconds.
<gary_poster> bac, wow!  great!
<bac> wow, my vm is awful
<bac> 47 minutes to run '-t test_bugtask'
<gary_poster> bac, do you use Fusion 3?
<bac> yes, 3.1.3
<bac> have you upgraded to 4?
<gary_poster> no, I'm holding off on 4 till a bit later.  I'm not compelled to pay the cost ATM
<gary_poster> I was seeing if you had bothered and seen an improvement :-)
<bac> i'm not compelled to suffer any surprises...
<gary_poster> yeah
<bac> so we're both chicken, it seems
<gary_poster> :-)
<gary_poster> we both have been burned by Lion lately, perhaps
<gary_poster> Oh, btw, bac, I deleted the code in 'lib/canonical/launchpad/webapp/publication.py because stub said to.  I'll give a link in the MP...
<gary_poster> comment added
<gary_poster> bac, I'm going to take lunch.  biab
<bac> gary_poster: i may too
<benji> bac: I was curious about your comment about VM speed so I ran "bin/test -c -t test_bugtask" on my VM.  It took 23 minutes.  (i5 (M 540) @ 2.53GHz
<benji> )
<bac> so colorizing speeds things up?  i'll try that
<bac> benji: how much memory have you given your VM?
<benji> gary_poster: you'll be relieved to know that my bug 854695 branch just made it into PQM
<_mup_> Bug #854695: AttributeError for "__traceback__" when reporting an exception <oops> <Launchpad itself:In Progress by benji> <lazr.restful:Fix Released by benji> < https://launchpad.net/bugs/854695 >
<benji> bac: 3/4 gig (748 meg)
<benji> it swaps very little, there's only 88 meg swapped out at the moment
<bac> benji: really?  wow.  mine is 1G
<bac> and i have a core 2 duo @ 2.53GHz
<benji> the i5 is a tad faster than the core 2 at the same speed, but not 50%, so I suspect you've diagnosed it correctly as being VM overhead (although I'm a bit surprised at it being roughly 50% slower)
<benji> You have an SSD right?  I do too, so that shouldn't affect things much.
<bac> benji: so you are running ubuntu in a VM?  what is your host?
<benji> grrr, "PQM test failure"
<benji> bac: I'm runing Natty and using KVM.
<bac> wow, so i wonder if kvm is that much faster than vmware
<benji> I don't know.  My only VMWare experience was with (what was then called) ESX server.  That was very fast (it ran on top of Redhat).
<benji> Those were the days.  Running OpenBSD on VMWare on Redhat.
<gary_poster> benji, PQM: yay
<gary_poster> bac, btw, I'm here, in case you have any MP questions
<bac> gary_poster: ok.  was distracted by lunch and other things but am on it for real now
<gary_poster> :-) cool
<bac> gary_poster: did you intend for the 'disconnected.html' temporary change to make it into your branch?
<gary_poster> no bac, oops thanks
<bac> gary_poster: i mean it isn't there
<bac> i expected it to be
<gary_poster> oh
<gary_poster> oh, why?
<bac> so you intended for it to be added in manually?
<gary_poster> just for review?
<bac> from your MP i thought you were providing it for the reviewer
<gary_poster> yeah, I was thinking it was nicer to have the clean diff
<bac> cool.  i was just confused by what was written
<gary_poster> I was providing the patch for the reviewer :-) but I'm happy to merge and push
<gary_poster> ok
<bac> np
<bac> i've done it
<gary_poster> thx
<bac> gary_poster: did huw write the text for the Uh Oh message?
<gary_poster> bac, mostly.  I adjusted it because it was grammatically incorrect initially.  I may have made it worse.  Let me get his original for you...
<bac> gary_poster: let's blame huw -- i'm sure yours is a vast improvement...but i still find it very clumsy
<gary_poster> bac, ack.  I'm not so sure I made it better to understand, but I can't stand it when a sentence doesn't parse correctly.  Here's the original.
<gary_poster> +                        <p>This happens when we are doing an update, in which
<gary_poster> +                         case Launchpad will be back in less than five
<gary_poster> +                         minutes, or in the case that something else has gone
<gary_poster> +                         wrong someone will have already been notified.</p>
<gary_poster> Can you tweak that subtly to make it grammatically correct and more comprehensible?  I'm happy to run with it if so.
<gary_poster> Or not so subtly :-P whatever
<gary_poster> This can happen when we are doing an update.  In that case, Launchpad will be back in less than five minutes.  Otherwise, if something else has gone wrong, we have been notified and are working to correct it.
<gary_poster> ?
<gary_poster> The last sentence is still clumsy
<gary_poster> Otherwise, we have been notified of the error and are working to correct it,
<gary_poster> s/it,/it./
<gary_poster> That sounds better to me than the original or what I threw together before.
<gary_poster> This can happen when we are doing an update.  In that case, Launchpad will be back in less than five minutes.  Otherwise, we have been notified of the error and are working to correct it.
<bac> let me try
<bac> gary_poster: first, i hate the use of "this" with no object.
<bac> is it me or is that a real rule?  i was taught so.
<bac> i guess "this <gestures to a cow> is blue" make sense.  but without the actor pointing at the cow it does not.
<bac> i guess the last thing we were talking about is the implied object
<gary_poster> bac, it sounds reasonable.  Maybe it is in strunk/white.  It has a *kind* of object because it is preceded by the heading "Something has gone wrong, sorry about this."  So, "this" is presumably the thing that has gone wrong.
<gary_poster> Though it should really be "The going-wrong" in the context of the sentence I guess :-)
<gary_poster> "The wrongness"
<gary_poster> I could futz to try to get rid of the "this", but I'll let you do it.
<benji> I'll drive by: how about s/This/This error/
<bac> Either we are in the middle of doing an update, in which case Launchpad will be back in less than five minutes, or we are experiencing unexpected problems and we're working to fix them.
 * benji dreams of a world in which inner-city youth perform drive by grammar bikeshedding.
<bac> yo yo, put down dat participle
<gary_poster> heh
 * bac should've used 'gerund'
<gary_poster> bac, I like, but can we split that into two sentences?
<bac> yes.  you.  can.
<gary_poster> LOL
<bac> and the previous sentence:
<bac> "Something has gone wrong, sorry about this <insert object>.
<bac> colossal screw-up
<gary_poster> heh
<bac> annoyance
<bac> actually that sentence is a run-on, no?
<gary_poster> Can we be more colloquial, maybe?  This is mrevell's old job.  "Something has gone wrong.  We're sorry!"
<bac> and we should channel Astro:  Ruh Roh!
<gary_poster> heh
 * gary_poster thought that was Scooby
<bac> ok, i guess i can get on with the more significant parts of the review, though the wording needs work.
<benji> Astro had the same speech impediment.
<bac> they had the same voice actor
<bac> Astro is a canine character on the Hanna-Barbera cartoon, The Jetsons. He was designed by Iwao Takamoto, and originally voiced by Don Messick. In the Harvey Birdman, Attorney at Law episode "Back to the Present", Astro was voiced by Wally Wingert. Astro was more advanced than present-day dogs, in that he had a rudimentary grasp of the English language, albeit with r's in many places they shouldn't be, or replacing other letters. For ex
<gary_poster> Something has gone wrong.  We're sorry!
<gary_poster> If we are in the middle of an update, Launchpad will be back in less than five minutes.  Otherwise, we are working to fix the unexpected problems.  Please see Twitter or Identi.ca for details.
<gary_poster> bac ^^^
<bac> gary_poster: won't twitter or identi.ca be shown below?
<bac> or only sometimes?
<gary_poster> bac, that's the hope, but if they are on an older browser & do not have Flash installed, then no.
<gary_poster> The links will always be shown
<bac> i just dont' want it to sound redundant for the frequent case that it is already there
<gary_poster> I'm happy to omit the last sentence
<bac> but that is much better
<gary_poster> cool, bac, I'll put that in without the Twitter sentence
<gary_poster> thank you
<gary_poster> bac, wording changed pushed FWIW
<gary_poster> s/changed/change/
<bac> cool
<bac> gah, FF7 is crashing all the time on me
<bac> just lost my review, though i hadn't actually written much
<gary_poster> bac, fwiw, I'm reinstating the deleted part in publication.py because lifeless showed me that I don't understand what stub was saying, and he's not sure either
<bac> good
<bac> i didn't understand it either
<bac> but i hadn't read stub's note yet
<bac> gary_poster: i've finished
<bac> i made some comments about behaviour when JS is not enabled.  hope it makes sense.
<gary_poster> bac, cool, will look in a sec.  thank you!
<bac> AND WTF IS ROBERT DOING???
<bac> by that i mean, it seems rather rude to approve a claimed review that is in progress by someone else
<gary_poster> :-/
 * bac -> deli
<bac> bye benji.  have a good weekend.
<benji> bac: same to you; I hope your dog feels better soon
