#ubuntu-doc 2005-04-18
<mdke> hi all
<Burgundavia> salut
<mdke> hi corey
<mdke> got a moment to teach me xml?
<mdke> i'm looking through the quickguide to try and pick it up
<mdke> <!-- is a comment?
<mdke> if so, why is that bit on sounders and arrays commented out?
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> if you have done any html, docbook xml is similar
<mdke> yeah it looks easy
<mdke> hi tshark7 
<tshark7> hi
<tshark7> i'm new to irc, just looking around
<Burgundavia> salut
<mdke> welcome
<Burgundavia> they channel is for discussing ubuntu documentation
<Burgundavia> s/they/this
<Burgundavia> tshark7: you might also want to check out #ubuntu, #ubuntu-devel, #ubuntu-motu
<Burgundavia> #ubuntu-devel is for development
<Burgundavia> #ubuntu-motu is for the universe and multiverse component of Ubuntu
<mdke> and also #ubuntu-2digitlanguagecode :)
<Burgundavia> except ubuntu-ca
<Burgundavia> which is Canada and not catalan
<mdke> you stole it?
<mdke> cheeky
<Burgundavia> I didn't
<mdke> you (pl)
<tshark7> ok, thanks
* mdke studies his catalan to try out on the #ubuntu-ca
<mdke> On s el bany?
<jsgotangco> wow the artwork changed the whole thing
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> see my note to the list
<jsgotangco> i replied to it after reverting my settings to default on everything
<Burgundavia> both are sabdfl
<jsgotangco> jeezz
<Burgundavia> sorry
<Burgundavia> on the phone with the ex
<Burgundavia> anyway, good posts by nick and mary
<jsgotangco> who leads/coordinates with thedevelopers? mdz?
<Burgundavia> nobody really
<Burgundavia> mdz and maybe jdub follow the list
<Burgundavia> maybe we should have someone to coordinate
<Burgundavia> there is a reason I run almost default
<Burgundavia> the only default I don't have is the login screen
<jsgotangco> hmmm i think i should be default as well to document correctly from now on
<Burgundavia> I have tobacco sky
<jsgotangco> haha same here!
<Burgundavia> I want to see wha the average user has
<Burgundavia> tobacco is very nice
<Burgundavia> a nice calm screen
<jsgotangco> the average user would probaby have circle of friends
<jsgotangco> because the default ubuntu gdm isnt that nice
<jsgotangco> but i could be wrong
<jsgotangco> oh froud recommended me for a commit account
<jsgotangco> that is *nice*
<Burgundavia> cool
<Burgundavia> committ is very useful
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco: you still there?
<jsgotangco> aye
<Burgundavia> can you confirm something?
<Burgundavia> can you double click on an svg file?
<jsgotangco> wait
<jsgotangco> it opens firefox
<Burgundavia> ok
<jsgotangco> and asks if i want to download it
<Burgundavia> I will file a bug
<Burgundavia> FF can't open it
<jsgotangco> sure it cant
<jsgotangco> oohh
<jsgotangco> i have inkscape though
<jsgotangco> where should an svg open?
<Burgundavia> in eog
<Burgundavia> and inkscape if you have it
<jsgotangco> FF did notice i have inkscape though
<Burgundavia> ff did
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco: what happens when you insert a music cd in the drive?
<Burgundavia> does it autoplay?
<Burgundavia> if you double click on the icon, does it start gnome-cd?
<jsgotangco> let me check
<jsgotangco> i had autoplay with CD Player
<Burgundavia> ok
<Burgundavia> close the cd player
<Burgundavia> and double click on the icon
<jsgotangco> it didnt play and opened hdc instead
<jsgotangco> file browser
<Burgundavia> probably should open the cd player, eh?
<jsgotangco> *grin* it did show wav files but when i clicked on the files i got errors as well
<Burgundavia> and it paused playback for me
<froud> African Greetings
<Burgundavia> salut
<froud> hi
<Burgundavia> seen my recent thread?
<jsgotangco> greetings
<froud> Burgundavia: yes, glad somebody else is screaming this time and not me :-)
<Burgundavia> froud: I wondered what your reaction was going to be
<froud> I did ask mdz and developers to update us to GUI changes
<Burgundavia> to be honest, yours was the one I place the most weight on
<froud> but as usual developers just ignore doc team
<Burgundavia> bah
<Burgundavia> very frustrated
<froud> nedd to think how to handle this
<froud> Let me first speak with mdz, sabfl and mako
<froud> it is done now
<froud> no point us making a big issue
<froud> but we need to address it for future
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> I was mostly concerned for Breezy
<froud> I think it is part of the learning process, on all sides
<froud> like our recent escapade with i18n
<jsgotangco> *grin*
<jsgotangco> the new artwork is nice though
<Burgundavia> yes it is
<Burgundavia> gotten used to the new brown
<froud> yes
<jsgotangco> i will stick to default from now
<froud> we always dcoument by default
<froud> Burgundavia: I am not sure that the change makes everything bad
<Burgundavia> which change? the spatial one?
<froud> the main screen of the application is the important think
<froud> thing
<Burgundavia> have you read the comments at #8516
<Burgundavia> some good ones
<froud> yes
<Burgundavia> including one from a disabled guy
<froud> but GNOME moved to spatial a long time ago
<Burgundavia> but not this kind of spatial
<Burgundavia> closing windows behind
<froud> sure it is different
<Burgundavia> and that is what the patch does
<froud> but how does spatial or not impact on the quick guide
<Burgundavia> quickguide is impacted by colour change
<Burgundavia> release notes are impacted by spatial change
<Burgundavia> because we should mention it
<froud> the color change is not that much a problem
<Burgundavia> not really
<Burgundavia> but it makes us look unprofessional, IMHO
<froud> the spatial change should be mentioned, but is not critical
<jsgotangco> it can be a source of cons for the release
<jsgotangco> those who like to nitpick
<froud> I agree they should inform us
<Burgundavia> spatial change also introduces a whole bunch of corner cases
<froud> but I am trying to say that it is not as bad as first made out
<Burgundavia> I don't really object to the option
<Burgundavia> just no easy way to turn off
<froud> we need to under the extent of the problem
<Burgundavia> all in all, not a major issue
<Burgundavia> just kind of annoying
<Burgundavia> to me, both feel very top down decision making
<froud> Burgundavia: agreed
<Burgundavia> which is not the greatest for building a community distro
<Burgundavia> it is fine if someone steps in a makes a decision after a contentious debate
<Burgundavia> to me, that is the point of a sabdfl
<froud> I will speak to him
<froud> dunno if anyone noticed but ubuntu device database was also added late
<froud> I wrote documents for it, but did not add it to the quick guide
<jsgotangco> bbl x reboot
<Burgundavia> device database is pretty minor though
<Burgundavia> and is not really ready for primetime
<froud> yes, but quick guide is a tour
<Burgundavia> true
<froud> I decided not to make a stink of it
<Burgundavia> hadn't thought about it
<froud> I did not want to say much because I did lots of moaning about svn and this is the result
<froud> http://people.ubuntulinux.org/~mako/ubuntu-traffic/latest.html#10
<Burgundavia> hey, it got publicity
<jsgotangco> spatial really is something
<froud> Burgundavia: yeah, like that was really what needed publicity
<Burgundavia> lol
<Burgundavia> but seriously, that didn't really need to be aired
<jsgotangco> ummm did i miss something?
<Burgundavia> our mailing lists seem to have 2 modes
<Burgundavia> 1. dicussing something big
<Burgundavia> 2. no traffic
<froud> yes, I moned about that too and got nowhere
<froud> moaned
<Burgundavia> hey
<Burgundavia> the quickguide is great looking
<froud> not bad for our first job
<froud> Burgundavia: are you updating inline with the development branch
<Burgundavia> now if we can come to a consensus of the web portal
<Burgundavia> froud: sorry, I don't understand
<froud> do you run updates against the development branch
<Burgundavia> I currently am only tracking trunk
<froud> daily weekly month online updates
<froud> if you run synaptic against the development version you will get updates sooner
<froud> For the next release we will all need to change our sources list
<froud> in apt
<froud> this means the system may become unstable
<Burgundavia> true
<Burgundavia> sorry, I am still failing to understand you
<Burgundavia> it almost certainly my fault
<froud> in apt sources are your updates comming from warty or hoary?
<Burgundavia> hoary
<froud> ok
<Burgundavia> I left warty in late Sept.
<Burgundavia> and shall leave hoary as soon as the Breezy repos open
<jsgotangco> hmmm
<froud> yeah, now we will have to change sources.list
<Burgundavia> make that Late oct
<jsgotangco> i wish i had another pc to test stuff
<froud> must take my daughters to school
<froud> brb
<Burgundavia> np
<jsgotangco> how soon do you think we need to change sources?
<Burgundavia> whenever you want to
<Burgundavia> as I said, I plan to jump as soon as Breezy opens
<jsgotangco> hmmm ok but we'll risk breaking things
<Burgundavia> yes we will
<Burgundavia> that is fun
<jsgotangco> i better save for a shuttle pc
<jsgotangco> its hard if youre unemployed though *grin*
<Burgundavia> I am also unemployed
<jsgotangco> how do i check the translated docs?
<froud> back
<froud> translated docs in the new release
<Burgundavia> how old are your kids?
<froud> 3 of them
<froud> 11, 6 and 4
<jsgotangco> i have a 3 year old
<froud> boy, girl, girl
<Burgundavia> bah kids
* Burgundavia is 22
<froud> Burgundavia: your turn will come
<froud> kids are the best
<jsgotangco> hehehe yes resistance is futile
<Burgundavia> that is what scares me
<jsgotangco> indeed
<jsgotangco> i got married at 27
<jsgotangco> became a dad at 28
<froud> when your partner feels her hip bones pulling apart you know you are in for kids
<jsgotangco> kids are expensive though hehe
<froud> jsgotangco: married 13 years and loving it
<Burgundavia> just broke up with a gf of 2 years
<froud> yes but worth it
<froud> Burgundavia: ouch 2 years are the hard ones
<Burgundavia> we are still good friends
<froud> yeah until you meet somebody new
<Burgundavia> true
<jsgotangco> like being in between 2 boulders
<Burgundavia> anybody else having issues with totem and gnome cd-player being unstable?
<froud> dunno I run KDE
<froud> come to kde
<jsgotangco> my gnome cd-player clips audio but i only tested 1 cd
<jsgotangco> im seriously considering kubuntu though
<Burgundavia> bah KDE
<froud> kde is strong in EU
<froud> gnome in US
<Burgundavia> I am going to reinstall after Hoary releases
<Burgundavia> don't trust this upgraded box
* jsgotangco doesnt like reinstalling 
<froud> jsgotangco: just get the new iso and burn a cd
<Burgundavia> I am going to make a list of things that don't work
<Burgundavia> and if they still don't work after reinstall, then I am going to hammer bugzilla
<Burgundavia> and make seb128 happy
<froud> yes bugzilla is the palce
<Burgundavia> seb and I don't see eye to eye on a lot of things
<froud> nor do many others
<jsgotangco> i really wish i could get work similar to what im doing here and more (test stuff, break, etc.)
<froud> :-)
<Burgundavia> are you saying that I am hard to get along with?
<froud> not you seb
<froud> :-)
<froud> you are fine
<Burgundavia> I think a lot of it is language barrier
<froud> well, once I understood that I am looking at a mirror of myself
<Burgundavia> when I spoke more French, I sounded rude
<Burgundavia> as I was at that level of fluency
<Burgundavia> can ask for things, but not politely
<froud> he he stick to en
<Burgundavia> my French is mostly gone now
<Burgundavia> amazing how in 2 years you can go from functional to nothing
<froud> yeah like my German
<froud> my Hebrew is still OK cause my wife and I make a point of speaking it
<jsgotangco> id like to study an eu language in the future
<jsgotangco> we used to have spanish but that was in high school an nobody took it seriously
<jsgotangco> in college i had latin but who the hell speaks it except the vatican
<froud> Hmm I have three people who want restructure in trunk and I know of three that dont
<froud> the pope is dead
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> that happened several days ago
<froud> Oh
<froud> well you see I am outof touch
<jsgotangco> yes, as a catholic it is sad :( ive seen the pope twice
<froud> what does the real-world look k=like
<Burgundavia> Prince Ranier III of Monaco also just died
<Burgundavia> as well as Johnny Cochrane, famous for defending OJ
<froud> Hmm the whole world is passing away
<Burgundavia> http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS5358436389.html
<jsgotangco> at least Ranier will be with grace kelly again
<Burgundavia> cool
<jsgotangco> OshKosh truck?
<jsgotangco> isnt that a kids apparel brand?
<froud> he he
<Burgundavia> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oshkosh
<Burgundavia> seems it stands for a few things
<froud> Burgundavia: well matt has given you an answer
<Burgundavia> oh?
<Burgundavia> which matt? mdz or of tsf?
<jsgotangco> A deliberate effort was made to get the artwork sorted earlier in the
<jsgotangco> release cycle, but deadlines were unfortunately missed.  I regret if this
<jsgotangco> has resulted in diminished satisfaction with the documentation.
<jsgotangco> Artwork has turned out to be a source of more interdependencies than we
<jsgotangco> anticipated.  What can we do for the next release cycle to improve the
<jsgotangco> workflow?
<jsgotangco> mdz
<Burgundavia> ok
<Burgundavia> I see the email now
<Burgundavia> froud, mdz is not in here
<Burgundavia> to me, what would be nice would be prior warning
<Burgundavia> ie: artwork changes are coming in breezy
<Burgundavia> this is where we are at
<Burgundavia> this is the expected done date
<froud> unlike other development functions documentation touches on and relies on communition with many functions
<froud> we need to interface with all functions
<froud> at present we dont
<Burgundavia> yes
<froud> we have rough interfaces with i18n and devel
<froud> seems we need artwork interface also
<Burgundavia> I am writing a response
<Burgundavia> I will dump here so we can critique
<froud> sure
<jsgotangco> ok just dump away ill brb i have a guest downstairs
<Burgundavia> For me, knowledge is the most important thing. To simply be officially informed that artwork changes are coming, and what they are expected to touch (login screen, theme, icons, etc.). This would allow us to plan when to take the screenshots and when to wait. Ideally, feedback could also come back from us, most especially with regards to timing. If the artwork slips too much, then we run into a major crunch for time. Screens
<Burgundavia> hots cannot be easily translated, and thus must be taken by hand currently. I am not asking for a veto, but just have a vote as a team when and if the slips happen.
<froud> seems fair
<Burgundavia> now that is some nice-Ubuntu style colours --> http://eh.net/deaconecon/archives/38-Economists-Say-the-Darnest-Things.html
<Burgundavia> froud: anything you would add?
<froud> cant think of anything yet
<Burgundavia> ok
<Burgundavia> should I send?
<froud> sure put it in open and lets see
<Burgundavia> done
<froud> Burgundavia: what email client do you use?
<Burgundavia> gmail
<Burgundavia> is it borking things?
<Burgundavia> they just changed the interfact
<Burgundavia> is it sending HTML?
<froud> no it is just that it does not indent bottom posts correctly
<Burgundavia> hmm
<Burgundavia> it doesn't do bottom posts
<froud> ah that is why
<Burgundavia> by default, it does top
<jsgotangco> wa? sorry was afk for a while
<Burgundavia> good comment from mattew
<Burgundavia> salut Skywind
<Skywind> hi, Burgundavia 
<Burgundavia> never seen you here before
<Kinnison> Morning all
<froud> morn
<Burgundavia> salut Kinnison 
<froud> Burgundavia: sent my response
<Burgundavia> reading it now
<jsgotangco> bravo!
<froud> jsgotangco: bravo that was brave or bravo it is a good response?
<froud> chaps the applications.menu is xml
<jsgotangco> it was a very good response we dont need to be in a fighting stance on this issue
<froud> I think I can use xslt to build and update menus
<froud> for both GNOME and KDE
<Burgundavia> I saw that
<froud> It helps us keep updated to menu changes and gives us earlier warning
<froud> I will see what what I can do
<froud> do either of you write xslt?
<Burgundavia> nope
<froud> :-( Ok well I must go back to work
<froud> c ya later
<jsgotangco> ok what did i miss
<jsgotangco> i was playing around with a dlt drive
<Burgundavia> not much
<Burgundavia> bah
<Burgundavia> we need better media docs
<Burgundavia> like how to install stuff (w32codecs)
<jsgotangco> but theyre not supported!
<froud-work> FAQ Guide and User Guide
<Burgundavia> so
<Burgundavia> not supported doesn't not mean that people don't use them
<Burgundavia> and the existing docs are crack
<froud-work> Burgundavia: r you gonna work on FAQ Guide
<Burgundavia> absolutely
<jsgotangco> but the official guide should not have instructions about these things
<jsgotangco> it can be on the wiki though
<froud-work> Good. Now for restructure where do you want to do it
<jsgotangco> that is my opinion
<Burgundavia> I don't know enough about the 2 different methods to make a rational choice
<Burgundavia> I want one source for docs, ours
<Burgundavia> I spend a lot of time talking and helping on #ubuntu
<Burgundavia> I think I have it figured out what we need to focus on
<froud-work> Burgundavia: our docs
<froud-work> wiki or svn
<froud-work> ?
<Burgundavia> everything in one place for starters
<Burgundavia> and a good 1st boot howto
<Burgundavia> and walkthrough
<Burgundavia> bringing elements of quickguide
<froud-work> that is why we have FAQ and User Guide
<Burgundavia> yes
<froud-work> what bother sme most is the spread of the effort
<froud-work> people are working all over
<froud-work> if they work in one place it is easier
<jsgotangco> i believe there must be a logical flow of how these documents meld together
<jsgotangco> especially for a new user
<Burgundavia> there should be
<Burgundavia> and 1st boot howto should be the 1st thing they see and need
<jsgotangco> at the moment its the wild wild west
<Burgundavia> ubuntuguide.org is nice, but doesn't really do things the ubuntu way
<Burgundavia> unfortunately, it has mindshare and is done
<froud-work> I have asked the author to please join and work with us
<froud-work> I wait for reposnse
<jsgotangco> hmm
<Burgundavia> he just reappeared
<jsgotangco> what he say
<Burgundavia> and has created ubuntuguide.org/temp
<Burgundavia> for hoary
<froud-work> he did not know about our svn effort
<Burgundavia> the instructions on there, it took me a hour to cleanup somebodies machine
<froud-work> FAQ Guide in svn is in docbook faq format
<froud-work> plovs spent lots of time moving it to docbook and I spent lots of time using docbook faq
<Burgundavia> I still need to take a good look at tit
<froud-work> please do
<Burgundavia> we now have a big issue with the wiki
<Burgundavia> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/AddingRepositoriesHowto
<Burgundavia> is warty
<Burgundavia> so a hoary user just came along and changed all his sources to warty
<Burgundavia> I am now sorting it out
<froud-work> well this is why we want everyting in svn and the documentation to be made from there 
<Burgundavia> I agree with you now
<froud-work> funny how people only realize what I am saying when they actually feel it
<froud-work> :-)
<Burgundavia> I never said I didn't want to have a single source
<Burgundavia> we just disagreed on which one
<froud-work> no not you specifically
<froud-work> geeze you r touchy today
<froud-work> :-)
<Burgundavia> if we get this portal off the ground, we will have the best docs, bar none
<froud-work> absolutely
<jsgotangco> its logical after all to have wiki and xml docs to be in one version control right
<Burgundavia> what package in the dictionary panel applet in?
<Kinnison> gnome-utils
<Burgundavia> Kinnison: thanks
<jsgotangco> oh its a public holiday on the 1st day of UDU
<jsgotangco> anzac day
<jsgotangco> nice
<jsgotangco> i will be doing my work in eSvn now
<jsgotangco> it makes things much easier
<jsgotangco> and i see the status of the docs
<jsgotangco> as well as the commit logs
<Burgundavia> any gtk apps like eSVN?
<Burgundavia> I tend to be a desktop purist
<Burgundavia> gtk2 or nothing
<jsgotangco> i dont know, i thank froud for learning so much at the moment but i have started experimenting with other stuff
<Burgundavia> ugh
<Burgundavia> 8516 is getting nasty
<jsgotangco> 8516?
<Burgundavia> the bug for the spatial change
<Burgundavia> I filed it
<Burgundavia> it has become "the official spatial bug"
<jsgotangco> let me check that i was looking into that mosh sammy pic
<jsgotangco> wow thats long
<Burgundavia> yes
<jsgotangco> "If you don't like spatial don't use it!"
<jsgotangco> hehe
<jsgotangco> jeezz
<Kinnison> yeesh the tempers run high on that bug
* Kinnison dislikes the new behaviour too; but at least I can revert it
* Kinnison will revert it for his dad too
<Burgundavia> I haven't bothered yet
<Burgundavia> going to reinstall tomorrow
<jsgotangco> i just turn it off
<jsgotangco> jeezz Remy's comments are nasty
<Burgundavia> cya all
<jsgotangco> im out as well
<Liz> can anyone give me the url for the learning linux open source site ?
<Liz> nevermind..found it
<Burgundavia> gah
<Burgundavia> Artwork is always likely to be changing close to release
<Burgundavia> read that?
<froud> yeah
<Burgundavia> not so happy, but I figured that is what he would say
<Burgundavia> doesn't want to take the wraps off the new artwork until the very end
<froud> sure, figure
<froud> conerntrating on new structure make files
<Burgundavia> hmm?
<Burgundavia> you have been busy I see
<froud> Hmmm
<froud> architecting new make system
<froud> most of the heavy moving now over
<froud> now focused on creating the make system
<froud> specific for gnome first
<froud> then we can merge back to trunk
<froud> in my mind if the current docs build then people should be happy and have an example on which to build the other things
<froud> what do you think
<Burgundavia> sounds good
<froud> ok must go back before I lose concerntration
<froud> enough for tonight bye
#ubuntu-doc 2005-04-19
<Burgundavia> salut
<sladen> this URL is 404:
<sladen> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/support/documentation/howto/miniRAM
<sladen> and http://www.ubuntulinux.org/search?SearchableText=low+memory&Title=&Description=&created%3Adate=1970%2F02%2F01+00%3A00%3A00+GMT&created_usage=range%3Amin&pt_toggle=%23&portal_type%3Alist=AmazonItem&portal_type%3Alist=Discussion+Item&portal_type%3Alist=Document&portal_type%3Alist=Event&portal_type%3Alist=Favorite&portal_type%3Alist=File&portal_type%3Alist=Folder&portal_type%3Alist=HelpCenter&portal_type%3Alist=HelpCenterDefinition&portal_type%3Alist=H
<sladen> oh foobar
<sladen> that is ugly beyond belief
<sladen> ...http://www.ubuntulinux.org/support/documentation/faq/installation-custom/talkback/1103218967/view?searchterm=low%20memory
<sladen> redirects to a URL that says:
<sladen> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/insufficient_privileges
<Flonne> Bleh. Routers should not be allowed to die.
<jsgotangco> greetings
<jsgotangco> hi
<Burgundavia> salut
<jsgotangco> jeezz i was playing around win a windows server 2003 here at home and i broke it with sp1
<jsgotangco> *grin*
<Burgundavia> heh
<Burgundavia> windows is fun eh?
<Burgundavia> even the stable version breaks a lot
<jsgotangco> it is fun
<jsgotangco> hehe
<jsgotangco> im laughing so hard
<Burgundavia> sp1 is the big new one eh?
<jsgotangco> its bigger than an apt-get dist-upgrad
<Burgundavia> bah
<jsgotangco> its like 400MB
<jsgotangco> hehe
<Burgundavia> damn gnomebaker froze
<jsgotangco> when i rebooted the box it said "installation failed"
<jsgotangco> hehe
<jsgotangco> wtf
<Burgundavia> lol
<jsgotangco> now i dont know if its fixed or not hehe
<Burgundavia> and this waht millions of people place thousands of dollars in trust every day
<jsgotangco> heh heres a good one
<jsgotangco> when i turn on the firewall
<jsgotangco> it wants to reboot
<jsgotangco> jeezz
<Burgundavia> lol
<Burgundavia> pretty soon, when you start a program, it will want to reboot
<jsgotangco> im reading the release notes
<Burgundavia> actually, they say longhorn will have more hotpatching
<jsgotangco> they reduced protocol exposure to SMB, lanman, ldap
<jsgotangco> hmm
<jsgotangco> i wonder how this affects samba clients
<jsgotangco> oh well i will play around with the other box later
<Burgundavia> probably not much
<Flonne> Wouldn't Windows hotpatching require a total rewrite of the services and kernel?
<jsgotangco> urrkk if that is so, does that mean the whole system was rewritten
<Flonne> Unless Microsoft is just lying again...
<Burgundavia> could be
<Burgundavia> this is on the unofficial longhorn spec sheet
<Burgundavia> It may also slip
<Flonne> Any hotpatching is more hotpatching, though.
<Burgundavia> yes
<Flonne> They could make config files hot-patchable. =P
<Burgundavia> and hotpatching is good
<Burgundavia> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2002/11/21/ms_paper_touts_unix/
<Burgundavia> read that
<Burgundavia> is funny
<jsgotangco> dog it dog haha
<jsgotangco> eat
<Burgundavia> salut froud 
<froud> African Greetings
<froud> morn
* froud sips at coffee
<jsgotangco> hi froud
<froud> Invisible_Pink_U ??? Hmmm
<froud> morn
<Burgundavia> we were having a religion debate in #wikipedia
<froud> argh, religion, nooooooo
<Burgundavia> yes
<jsgotangco> froud: your email about the branched r871
<froud> yes
<Burgundavia> there was a gentleman of christian persusian, who was trying to convince us that homosexuality was a sin
<jsgotangco> froud: will doing a checkout make a new wc?
<jsgotangco> so there will be 2 wc? trunk and branch?
<jsgotangco> homosexuality is a sin in the judeo-christian beliefs but nowadays every religion should be liberal on such issues
<froud> yes if you are using eSvn just do browse then change the string trunk to branch and then click browse
<froud> from there you can do checkout
<jsgotangco>  https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/branch/ ?
<froud> jsgotangco: yes
<froud> jsgotangco: most of the heavy moving is now done
<froud> jsgotangco: I am just developing the make system
<froud> my focus is to complete the gnome first, that way we can merge back to trunk sooner
<jsgotangco> svn list https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/branch/ --recursive --verbose --non-interactive 
<jsgotangco> svn: URL 'https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/branch' non-existent in that revision
<jsgotangco> error (1)
<froud> https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/branches sorry
<jsgotangco> okay
* froud is still in the early morning fog
<jsgotangco> hmm its taking a while i guess its working
<froud> Burgundavia: seems like this person is a hardliner, personally I dont care what a persons sexual proclility is
<froud> you will see thr branches folder
<froud> then click it
<froud> it will expand the folders in the branch
<froud> select restruct
<froud> and do a checkout on that
<froud> Burgundavia: everyone is entitled to a religion
<froud> and everyone is entitled to thier sexual preference
<jsgotangco> ok i see the branch
<froud> nice do you see the sub folders
<jsgotangco> restruct -> build -> common, etc
<jsgotangco> oh its the same structure
<froud> yes
<froud> more or less
<jsgotangco> but it now has kde
<froud> and generic
<froud> libs have moved
<jsgotangco> ok i just select restructure and click on check out
<froud> yes
<jsgotangco> and i make a new wc right
<froud> yes in a new folder outside your trunk
<jsgotangco> gotcha..the only thing i notice is
<jsgotangco> that when i did a co
<jsgotangco> i dont see the progress
<jsgotangco> eh?
<froud> you should see prgress
<froud> give it a second
<jsgotangco> ok there she goes...
* jsgotangco is beginning to like esvn more
<froud> needs to get the file list from th e.svn on the repos
<froud> This is what Baz needs
<froud> jsgotangco: I am still building the make files etc and have not checked them in yet
<froud> jsgotangco: I will soon do a checkin for the gnome folder
<froud> then perhaps you would like to help me integrate the other folders
<jsgotangco> yes i would ill familiarize myself with the branch then
<froud> OK, remember what you are looking at is still unstable
<froud> so nothing works
<jsgotangco> its expected
<jsgotangco> *grin*
<froud> as I said I will do the first make for gnome and then perhaps you can do generic and kde
<froud> that way you will get an understanding of the make system
<froud> I also suggest we document it in the wiki once we get  further
<froud> that way when we merge to trunk people will have something to follow
<jsgotangco> ok ill make some notes on this conversation as reference
<froud> Flonne: ping
<Flonne> Hi.
<Flonne> My router died.
<froud> Hi, ooo sorry about that
<Flonne> It's amazingly difficult to find ISA cards there days. :(
<froud> Flonne: r you up to hacking the restructure in the branch
<jsgotangco> or mobos with ISA slots either
<Flonne> I managed to get access to a Mac today, so I'll be testing netboot stuff tomorrow.
* jsgotangco needs an ISA mobo for an old test tooling kit
<Flonne> Is the planned restructure documented in any way?
<froud> Flonne: in my head
* Flonne maintains a 486 running oBSD.
<froud> Flonne: most of the heavy moving is done
<Flonne> Software routers are great.
<Flonne> So what would you want me to do? Verify XSLT structures?
<froud> Flonne: now I am building the make system, based on the methods used for autogen
<froud> I will do a checkin for the gnome folder as a sample app
<froud> an when I do post it to the list
<Flonne> Updating...
<froud> Flonne: we are in branches/restructure
<jsgotangco> what happens to trunk we keep it as is at the moment and just commit some stuff?
<froud> Flonne: jsgotangco: I am not sure there is anything you can do until I do the make checkin for gnome
<jsgotangco> ok no rush
<Flonne> Hmm... I'll need to check out the level below trunk.
<froud> jsgotangco: trunkgoes on as it is. If there are commits we merge them to the branch
<froud> Flonne: dont you already have it
<Flonne> Not on this laptop.
<froud> AH
<Flonne> I was experimenting with Ubuntu amd64 while my router was down.
<froud> jsgotangco: we will merge changes in trunk to the branch so that we can easily merge branch back to trunk
<froud> Flonne: an
<jsgotangco> ok i get the branch -> trunk trunk ->branch flow now
<Flonne> How many branches do you plan to introduce?
<Flonne> Core + KDE/Gnome?
<Flonne> (With core being trunk)
<jsgotangco> i see a kde in restructure
<froud> Flonne: restructure is going to be trunk
<froud> I have created folders for gnome, kde, generic
<Flonne> Branches are one of those things that make Subversion great. :)
<froud> libs has moved
<froud> kde generic and gnome will have their own libs
<froud> there is still commons
<Flonne> So the plan is basically to place basesystem stuff in generic, then export against the Gnome or KDE branches when required?
<froud> so generic is stuff that is not desktop specific
<froud> generic holds the FAQ Guide
<froud> and LearnLinux
<froud> FAQ Guide will be profiled
<froud> learn linux is cli
<froud> so no desktop stuff
<froud> so the genral rul of thumb is that generic is for documents that sepak about cli only or have application to both KDE and GNOME
<froud> the faq guide for example
<froud> it is mostly GNOME now
<froud> but we can easily apply much of the stuff to kde
<Flonne> Will generic become trunk after the restructure?
<froud> Since it is a qanda set
<froud> no
<froud> the whole of restructure becomes trunk
<froud> whatever we do in the restructure/ will be merged into trunk/
<Flonne> Ah. I see it now.
<jsgotangco> wait
<froud> I branched at r871
<jsgotangco> some changes in trunk must reflect in restructure right
<froud> so our first r in the branch is r872
<jsgotangco> but restructure changes become trunk in the end
<jsgotangco> right
<froud> jsgotangco: yes
<jsgotangco> ok its so clear now
<froud> jsgotangco:  see svn book about branches
<froud> http://svnbook.red-bean.com/en/1.0/svn-book.html#svn-ch-4
<froud> that should explain the concept
<froud> Ok any more questions I must do work now
<jsgotangco> ill just read the link and finish this branch thing
<froud> I will commit the make system only tonight
<jsgotangco> ok
<froud> that way you can see how it will work
<froud> after that we will be able to replicate it for generic and kde
<froud> then we need to sort the entities
<froud> global.net is going to slpit
<froud> there will be global-fr.ent
<froud> global-de.ent
<froud> etc
<froud> this will make compensation for i18n
<froud> and we will have folders for menus in each language and the documents
<jsgotangco> oohhh
<jsgotangco> that is really nice
<froud> the make system will build the omf files, pots and pos
<Flonne> Can't wait to see your plan in action.
<jsgotangco> we're not worthy!
<froud> basically I want the system to manage all and if we create a new doc it should be easy to integrate
<froud> also for package it should be easy to packaged each book by itslef or the whole gnome or kde or generic
<Flonne> With special consideration being given to translations, right?
<froud> yes, I want translations to be fire and forget
<froud> we make a pot we get back po
<Flonne> Including pos for new docs?
<froud> the system generates omf-fr etc
<froud> we make pot not po
<froud> the translators give us back po
<Flonne> Typo.
<jsgotangco> i think we should fix conventions as well
<froud> we add po to svn and make xml-nn
<jsgotangco> like we had problems on the po.diff patches
<froud> I know about &quot; we should use <quote></quote>
<froud> any others
<jsgotangco> we'll see along the way
<Flonne> I was wondering why you weren't using tags like that...
<froud> OK
<Flonne> You have to work. =P
<froud> well dudes, speak later
<froud> very happy you too will be ther eto help
<froud> :-)
<jsgotangco> froud
<froud> chow
<jsgotangco> wait
<Flonne> I hope I can help. :)
<froud> uh huh
<jsgotangco> i just finished co of branch
<froud> jsgotangco: ok
<jsgotangco> does that mean i create a new wc on esvn?
<jsgotangco> workspace i mean
<froud> you can
<froud> that will make it easier for you to switch between them
<jsgotangco> ok i thought trunk and branch can be used at the same time
<froud> They can if you do a checkout on repos/
* Flonne installs esvn on all systems.
<froud> but this will create tags
<froud> and the tags folder is large
* froud is glad to here it. Perhaps Flonne and jsgotangco what to hack the eSvn documentation
<jsgotangco> ok workspace is fine
<froud>  you can do checkout from svn at eSvn web site
<froud> I know of one or two bugs in the document
<froud> and improvements are always welcome
<jsgotangco> ok that can be arranged
<jsgotangco> unemployment is bliss
<froud> Let me know if you have patches and I will patch the sources for you.
<froud> I mean on eSvn now
<froud> ok dudes bye for now
<Flonne> Student approaching finals here. ^^
<jsgotangco> hmm branch is still bare
<Flonne> Is the bottom pane in the eSvn window used to display changes?
<jsgotangco> thats the output log
<jsgotangco> you see commands issued and stuff
* jsgotangco just started using esvn a few days ago
<Flonne> Ah.
<jsgotangco> Mandriva
<jsgotangco> *grin*
<Burgundavia> you mean mandrivel
<Flonne> Different name, same garbage. :)
<jsgotangco> hehe
<Burgundavia> another example of corprate branding gone wrong
<jsgotangco> what a crappy name
<Burgundavia> manisthisstilltrivia
<Flonne> That's what I thought when I first heard it, jsgotangco.
<jsgotangco> jeezz #ubuntu-devel is smoking
<Flonne> Then I realized where it came from...
<Flonne> After that, I just started laughing. ^^
<jsgotangco> it sounds like a monkey specie
<Flonne> Conectiva was Brazilian, right?
<jsgotangco> yes
<Flonne> And Drake's documentation was already filled with typos and severe grammatical mistakes...
<jsgotangco> i used to like rh documentation
<Flonne> But RH is professional (though I really can't stand their management interfaces). Drake is like a cheap hack.
<jsgotangco> you think we can go to that level of documentation in the future?
<Flonne> I'm hoping to spend most of the summer improving the quality of what exists already...
<Flonne> I'm sure it'll happen eventually. :)
<jsgotangco> yes we'll evolve eventually
<Flonne> Some good changes seem to be on the way.
<mvirkkil> Where's the faqguide?
<froud-work> in trunk or branch?
<froud-work> in trunk it is in the root of trunk
<mvirkkil> Hoary's faq guide. FOr end users.
<froud-work> mvirkkil: you want to write or you just want to read?
<mvirkkil> I mean on the web. So that I can point people to it.
<mvirkkil> froud-work: Read
<froud-work> www.ubuntuguide.org
<froud-work> a bit outa date though
<froud-work> and should be used with caution
<mvirkkil> That's the old one. I mean a more official version of this: www.ubuntuguide.org
<Burgundavia> which should be used with a great deal fo caution
<mvirkkil> ARGH.. Wrong paste
<Burgundavia>  /temp is hoary
<mvirkkil> http://people.ubuntu.com/~mako/docteam/faqguide
<mvirkkil> Hmm.. Though that seems to be a bit out of date too..
<froud-work> mvirkkil: we need to update it for hoary
<mvirkkil> ok
<froud-work> it is warty
<mvirkkil> never mind then.
<froud-work> you can get the source in svn and update it if you want
<froud-work> mvirkkil: I know Burgundavia will also be working on the FAQ Guide, perhaps you can work together?
<jsgotangco> brb gotta reboot x
<froud-work> what is it with him and rebooting
<froud-work> I never saw a person reboot so much
<Burgundavia> hmm
<Burgundavia> windows refugee
<Burgundavia> got rebootitis
<froud-work> lets ask him :-)
<froud-work> jsgotangco: you have rebootitis?
<froud-work> why do you keep having to reboot?
<Burgundavia> rofl
<jsgotangco> blah i was testing stuff on my X
<Burgundavia> still lol
<froud-work> jsgotangco: you dont hav eto reboot for that
<jsgotangco> i just did X
<jsgotangco> not the whole system
<froud-work> Ah ok
<Burgundavia> why the freak did it take so long?
* froud-work was wondering the same
<Burgundavia> seen those bandwidth charts?
<jsgotangco> well i do other stuff
<jsgotangco> i dont connect to freenode in an instant
<froud-work> Burgundavia: what chart?
<Burgundavia> http://www.acc.umu.se/technical/statistics/ftp/monitordata/index.html.en
<jsgotangco> jeezz look at that spike
<Burgundavia> no slashdot yet
<Burgundavia> and distrowatch only has kubuntu
<jsgotangco> should my gnome reflect 2.10.1?
<froud-work> what charts are those?
<jsgotangco> about gnome is still 2.10.0 here
<Burgundavia> for an ubuntu mirror
<Burgundavia> for today
<froud-work> geeze
<jsgotangco> and my circle of friends is still the old one
<jsgotangco> ?
<froud-work> that is hectic
<froud-work> wonder how many downloads
<jsgotangco> hoary gets to live while the pope is about to be buried
<froud-work> oh well bury the pope and give birth to hoary :-)
<froud-work> no bad omens here :-)
<jsgotangco> and breezy is now conceived
<jsgotangco> *grin*
<froud-work> oh the pleasure of building six books of 600 pages with one command "make books"
<jsgotangco> ummm what do we do at the moment while waiting for you to do stuff on branch
<froud-work> rean svn book
<froud-work> s/n/d
<jsgotangco> good  idea
<froud-work> maskie: it is not call more time yet.
<froud-work> nice they have use the same style as kubuntu for the web page
<jsgotangco> hehehe maybe i should move to kubuntu
<jsgotangco> it looks so solid
<Burgundavia> bah
<Burgundavia> kde
<froud-work> jsgotangco: rock dude
<Burgundavia> gives me windows nightmares
<froud-work> It's not the interface that counts
<froud-work> its the stability
<jsgotangco> rock solid apps
<froud-work> k3b
<Burgundavia> yes
<jsgotangco> amarok
<Burgundavia> I must admit
<Burgundavia> graveman and gnomebaker failed on me
<Burgundavia> so I was forced to use a qt app
<Burgundavia> I had to use k3d
<Burgundavia> or it is k3b ;)
<jsgotangco> thats not so bad
* froud-work waves his hand in front of Burgundavia's eyes and says, "You will come to Kubuntu."
* Burgundavia resists
<froud-work> resistance is futile the force is strong with Kongi :-)
<jsgotangco> but i will probably need a new box to break stuff to make good work on docs
<froud-work> yep good excuse for the wife
<froud-work> now you have a reason to go into that computer store she always pulls you away from :-)
<Burgundavia> arghh
<Burgundavia> there is a guy on #ubuntu that is being very annoying
<Burgundavia> but not enough to justify kicking
<daven> there's a line between breaking the rules and just annoying people
<daven> unfortunately :)
<Burgundavia> unfortunately he hasn't crossed it
<Burgundavia> he seems drunk to me
<daven> :s
<jsgotangco> ok im out
<jsgotangco> what a long day
<Burgundavia> daven: have we met?
<Burgundavia> were you at Mataro?
<daven> i'm afraid not - i'm just a random!
<Burgundavia> ok
<daven> i found ubuntu a few weeks ago after trying debian for a while
<daven> i'm really impressed with it
<Burgundavia> don't recognize your nick
<Burgundavia> welcome
<daven> thanks - hi! :)
<Burgundavia> we usually (don't) talk about docs here
<jsgotangco> im out
<daven> hehe
<jsgotangco> we talk about homosexuality and the pope
<daven> in my work i'm a technical writer, currently, so i thought i'd hang around ;-)
<Burgundavia> ?
<Burgundavia> ah
<Burgundavia> I was a help desk monkey
<froud-work> daven: welcome
<Burgundavia> and then I quite
<Burgundavia> quit
<jsgotangco> bye bye
<Burgundavia> cya
<froud-work> jsgotangco: cheers
<daven> hi, froud-work.
<froud-work> daven: you got experience with Docbook
<daven> help desks can be stressful, i hear ;-)
<Burgundavia> yes
<jsgotangco> hi daven, bye daven nice to see you hope you hang out more
<daven> nah - the company i work for use dita - i've only been doing the job a few months
<Burgundavia> my ex, who wasn't at the time, tells me shoulders were knots
<daven> thanks jsgotangco :)
<Burgundavia> and I started grinding my teeth
<Burgundavia> at night
<daven> that doesn't sound healthy ;)
<froud-work> daven: DITA you have DITA experience you will get on just fine with Docbook
<Burgundavia> nope
<daven> cool - hopefully at some point i might try and get involved.  i've thought about contributing before, but i want to make sure i can commit myself first
<froud-work> daven: we all dowhat we can
<froud-work> daven: therein is the power
<daven> :)
<froud-work> we could use more technical writers
* froud-work goes to make coffee
<daven> :)
<Burgundavia> bah coffee
<froud-work> daven: where r you located
<daven> the uk
<daven> ah - you can see that from the profile thing
<froud-work> ok cool so we in the same time zone
<daven> i'm in the south
<froud-work> I am in South Africa
<daven> wow - i guess so :)
<Burgundavia> is 4 am here
<froud-work> Burgundavia: is in Canada, but he is not sure which side
<daven> hehe
<froud-work> So is Flonne 
<froud-work> Kinnison: is also in the UK
<Burgundavia> Kinnison: works for Canonical
<Burgundavia> I got him into this channel
<froud-work> and I think mdke is in AU
<Burgundavia> I think he is too lazy to remove it from his autojoin
<daven> i think it's really cool the way that the internet breaks down geographical barriers
<daven> hehe
<froud-work> sure, well you are welcome to join our doc effort. Look around and if you have any questions we r here to help
<daven> thanks - i appreciate the welcome
<froud-work> Burgundavia: nice to see our release notes roaming around the mailing lists
<froud-work> lug lists that is
<Burgundavia> which lists?
<froud-work> the ones in co.za 
<froud-work> 
<froud-work> Charles Majola
<froud-work>  was kind to send it
<froud-work> Burgundavia: did you know that the size of the docteam has quadrupled since xmas
<Burgundavia> has it
<froud-work> yeah
<Burgundavia> no wonder I don't recognize most people
<froud-work> we are getting old dude
<Burgundavia> lol
* Burgundavia ponders his grey hairs
<froud-work> trickie too
* Burgundavia does really actually have grey hair
<Burgundavia> we have lost a lot though
<Burgundavia> like plovs
<froud-work> hey where is plovs
<froud-work> he was cool
<froud-work> dont see him these days
<Burgundavia> I never saw a goodbye message
<Burgundavia> I met him at Mataro
<froud-work> me neither
<Burgundavia> nice guy
<froud-work> very cool
<froud-work> geeze I wish enrico would leave amsterdam already
<froud-work> I miss him
<froud-work> Whhhhaaaaaah!
<Burgundavia> what is he doing there?
<froud-work> he works for ARPA
<Burgundavia> ARPA?
<froud-work> some org in Italy
<Burgundavia> ah
<froud-work> yeah not the dead one
<froud-work> anyway back to work
<Burgundavia> it is DARPA now
<froud-work> yeah
<froud-work> well I still have to hack this book I am writing
<Burgundavia> http://www.arpa.emr.it/
<froud-work> dats it
<Burgundavia> hmm
<Burgundavia> lots of italian I really don't understand
<froud-work> thnk we need to speak to the main boz dude and let him know we need him here more
<froud-work> ah lunch arrived
<Burgundavia> who?
<froud-work> enrico
<Burgundavia> ah
<Burgundavia> ok
<froud-work> his boss keeps sending him away
* froud-work stuff a cheese and tomato sandwhich into his mouth
<froud-work> my backside hurts from so much sitting 
* froud-work has got to get a pair of those ubuntu jocks
<froud-work> http://www.cafepress.com/ubuntushop/
<froud-work> oh and the license plate frames
<Burgundavia> my ex wanted a thong
<froud-work> yeah now that's what I am talking about
<froud-work> Love the bib
<froud-work> hey Liz 
<froud-work> you want an ubuntu thong
<froud-work> http://www.cafepress.com/ubuntushop/
<froud-work> Every Linux Chick should have one
<froud-work> "for humanity"
<Liz> heh.i dont like thongs
<froud-work> Liz: then a teddy perhaps
<Liz> yes...i like the teddys..hehe
<Liz> pity they dont have other colours
<Liz> white just doesnt suit me
<Liz> id use the tote bag
<froud-work> Liz: now you're getting picky
<Liz> carry my ubuntu discs in it
<Liz> ive never like white
<Liz> ironic considering its my surname
<froud-work> Liz: shopping could be difficult with you .. . need lot sof patience 
<Liz> most definitely !
<Liz> i hate shopping..lol
<Liz> so when i have to do it...im picky as anything
<froud-work> My wife too
<Burgundavia> shopping is difficult with most women
<Liz> or ill buy on impulse
<Burgundavia> I think it has to do with wiring in the brain
<Burgundavia> and I am not being sexist
<froud-work> I have to drag he into the ladies section and buy for her
<froud-work> makes for fun in the undies section
<Liz> lol
<froud-work> I know more about make-up than she does
<Liz> mine wouldnt know what to buy if he had to take me there
<Liz> good for your wife !
<Liz> i dont wear make up either
<Liz> and my skin looks and feels younger than most 20 year olds who wear alot
<froud-work> Oh nice
<Burgundavia> aussie sun is not kind either
<Liz> ooh..nice looking wiki
* froud-work starts to like Liz more and more
<Liz> and the homepage is nice looking too
<Liz> i rarely go out in the sun if i can help it
<Liz> new zealand is cooler than aussie
<daven> if you like to avoid the sun, i recommend the uk
<daven> ;-)
<Liz> lol
<froud-work> Nah cold, give me the African bush
<Liz> too much rain for me
<froud-work> hot and swetty summer nights
<froud-work> slip sliding away ...
* froud-work grows horns and has to curb from getting raunchy
<Liz> :o
<froud-work> work will fix that
<froud-work> c ya 
<Liz> bye bye
<Liz> ooh ooh before you go
<Burgundavia> cya
<Liz> no..nevermind
<Liz> ill post in forums instead..heh
<froud-work> what
<Burgundavia> now you have piqued my interest
<froud-work> yeah me 2
* froud-work thinks Liz is holding out on us
<Liz> oh its on hte learning linux site
<Liz> its not ubuntu doc stuff
<froud-work> sure what about it
<Burgundavia> that is fine
<Burgundavia> mostly we don;t talk about docs here anyway
<Liz> when you open up the course..is there a way to get it to tell you where you were last?
<Liz> specially if yu leave before you finish that module
<froud-work> Hmm, dunno
<froud-work> you mean under moodle
<Liz> yes
<froud-work> I just do the src
<Liz> no worries..thats why i thought id ask in forums instead
<froud-work> riaan does the moodle stuff
<froud-work> Liz: when you gonna start contrbuting to the LearnLinux src
<Liz> ok ill send the query to him then
<Liz> contributing how?
<froud-work> you can checkout the docbook src
<Liz> theres rarely anyone online in there when im on
<froud-work> yes quite place
<Liz> heh..
<froud-work> but if you want the src you can do a checkout via svn
<Liz> the local uni has installed debian on their pcs just recently
<Liz> ive forwarded the url to some of those interested in learning more ab out linux
<froud-work> here is the svn info
<froud-work> http://learnlinux.tsf.org.za/project/web-svn.html
<froud-work> there are loads of bugs that we can fix
<Liz> is there?..ill have a look see then
<froud-work> Oh and I have a copy of the src in ubuntu-doc svn
<Liz> but i dont wanna commit to more than i can handle right now
<Liz> and i need to reget allt he ubuntu-doc svn as well
<froud-work> small pieces from many does lots
<Liz> hmm..good point
<froud-work> well I am off to work
<froud-work> c ya
<daven> ttfn
<Liz> bye bye
<mdke> hi all
<Burgundavia> salut
<mdke> hi corey
* froud-work nods
<mdke> how's things?
<mdke> hi froud-work 
<mdke> whats all this about me being australian?
<mdke> shameless lies
<froud-work> my mistake you are in NZ
<froud-work> I think
<daven> noted :)
<froud-work> mdke: did I get it right
* mdke kicks
<mdke> i'm in the UK
<froud-work> Oh no now Daven has company
<Burgundavia> mdke is a proud englishman
<Burgundavia> he even has the mold to prove it
<mdke> hi daven 
<froud-work> mdke: meet daven 
<mdke> Burgundavia, heh
<Burgundavia> I live on the 'wet coast'
<froud-work> so who is it that is in au
<mdke> mary and trickie iirc
<froud-work> Burgundavia: you see the team has quadrupled
<daven> hi mdke
<Burgundavia> it did
<froud-work> ah yes trickie
<mdke> froud-work, hows the build stuff going?
<froud-work> tell you tonight
<mdke> heh
<Liz> im the one from new zealand
<Liz> tho i live in australia
<Burgundavia> I was about to say
<Burgundavia> I wondered when nz became part of NSW
<Liz> is that mary from sydney?
<mdke> maybe...
<mdke> hi Liz
<Liz> hi mdke 
<Liz> i think it is..marys part of linuxchix..as am i
<mdke> yes she is
<mdke> i spied on her website
<Liz> yep.it was mary who told me about the documentation team for ubuntu
<Liz> at the last chix meeting
<froud-work> mdke: did you get your commit account sorted yet
<mdke> not sure
<mdke> froud-work, maybe elmo hasn't had time yet
<Burgundavia> elmo has been kind of busy
<mdke> lol
<mdke> understatement
<mdke> OT: does anyone know where current network speed is to be located?
<Burgundavia> ?
<mdke> i presume it can be found somewhere in /proc or something
<Burgundavia> what do you mean network speed?
<mdke> netstream[eth0: Receiving 0 B/s, Sending 0 B/s] 
<Burgundavia> ah
<Burgundavia> what do you want that for?
<Burgundavia> graph is a better representation
<mdke> someone in #ubuntu-it asked me, he wants to test his lan i guess
<Burgundavia> ah
<Burgundavia> hmm
<mdke> you know a prog?
<Burgundavia> he wants to test throughput?
<mdke> guess so
<Burgundavia> not off hand
<Burgundavia> I love WP
<Burgundavia> check out todays feature article
<Burgundavia> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page
<mdke> k
<mdke> blackadder!
<mdke> :)
* mdke gets out Union Jack
<daven> captain slackbladder?
<mdke> heh
<Liz> nite all
<mdke> my god we need to rethink the wiki helponediting pages
<mdke> seems people can't help but destroy the wiki
<shadowing> mdke, hi, mister samboc send me to you
<mdke> hi shadowing 
<mdke> where is sambox
<shadowing> mdke, i'm a member of the canadian local team
<mdke> samboc
<mdke> shadowing, pleased to meet you
<mdke> <-- matt
<shadowing> mdke, don'T know
<shadowing> antoine
<mdke> hi
<mdke> whassup antoine?
<shadowing> i'm here to have some informations about translation
<mdke> right
<shadowing> mdke, in fact i proposed myself to translate in french the cancadian loco page
<mdke> cool
<mdke> url?
<mdke> gottit
<shadowing> that the point
<shadowing> i don't have any clues how to do that
<shadowing> but i'm ready to learn
<mdke> you mean this page: http://www.ubuntu-ca.org?
<shadowing> yep
<mdke> well that page is probably hosted by sabmoc?
<shadowing> and he told me to mention also rosetta ???
<mdke> ok i'll explain
<mdke> Rosetta is a system of translation which allows users to translate components in ubuntu
<shadowing> hum
<mdke> its _fairly_ easy, you just log on, choose the relevant package you wish to translate, and go
<mdke> translating an independent website is different
<shadowing> but ubuntu does have french ?
<mdke> ?
<shadowing> we're taolking about 2 differents thinks here
<shadowing> the website and ubuntu
<shadowing> right
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> ubuntu has french, but there is always more translating to do as things are updated
<mdke> as far as the site is concerned, you need to speak to the site administrator
<mdke> which i assume is alex
<shadowing> ok and how do i know what have to be translate in ubuntu
<mdke> rosetta will tell you what is done and what needs to be done
<mdke> but the system is fairly young at the moment
<shadowing> and where did i find this rosetta
<mdke> If you like I will give you the email address of a guy who contributes actively to the french translating team
<shadowing> yep
<mdke> hang on a tic
<mdke> in any case, you can subscribe and ask questions on the ubuntu-translators and rosetta-users mailing list
<shadowing> ok
<mdke> ok
<mdke> paroz@email.ch
<mdke> his name is Claude
<shadowing> ok
<mdke> he can tell you whether there is a french translating team
<mdke> as for the canadian website, I think you need to talk with alex about it
<shadowing> ok thanks
<shadowing> for all
<mdke> not a problem
<shadowing> i'll try to figure it out what i have to do
<mdke> btw
<mdke> rosetta is found here:
<mdke> http://launchpad.ubuntu.com
<mdke> you can use your ubuntu.com login and password
<shadowing> ok i'll try
<shadowing> bye
<mdke> bye :)
<mdke> any more questions just come back
<mdke> yo
<jsgotangco> wassup dawg
<mdke> lol
<jsgotangco> wow the the main site is so slow
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> maybe we've been slashdotted
<mdke> yep
<jsgotangco> oohhh
<mdke> from the best-release-name-evar dept.
<mdke> lol
<jsgotangco> i was at #ubuntu-devel a few hours ago and everyone was there
<jsgotangco> it was crazy
<jsgotangco> hehe
<jsgotangco> like it was about  to launch a shuttle
<mdke> heh
<jsgotangco> Yes, Mr. CEO, we're going with Hoary Hedgehog (Score:4, Funny) 
<jsgotangco> arrgghh we're toast..im just going to fix wiki stuff later
<mdke> jsgotangco, what's happened?
<jsgotangco> its so slow on my side
<mdke> yeah here too
<mdke> i think ubuntu only has 2 mirrors
<jsgotangco> i havent checked the dl link but i hope it had more torrent links
<mdke> well torrents don't use mirrors
<mdke> i believe
<jsgotangco> its more encouraged i believe
<Kinnison> Torrents are certainly encouraged
<mdke> i would say essential
<mdke> hi Kinnison 
<Kinnison> hi mdke
<jsgotangco> hmmm
<jsgotangco> it would be nice if the release notes for il8n were also available on the site
<mdke> good idea
<mdke> but there is no multilanguage stuff on the site afaik
<mdke> its all on the various ubuntu-xx.org
<jsgotangco> hmmm but other big projects like mandriva publish them release notes in different languages in one page or at least a link
<jsgotangco> the wiki does have il8n links but not on the main page
<jsgotangco> at least for the new release anyway
<mdke> yeah i know
<mdke> canonical would have to employ about 10 people on the site if they wanted to make it decent imo
<jsgotangco> i wouldnt mind hehehe *grin* after all i am uemployed
<jsgotangco> i just noticed it thats all
<jsgotangco> but then, they were frantically doing finishing touches on the main site
<jsgotangco> a few minutes before the official announcement by mdz
<jsgotangco> if i remember right sabdfl was the one who edited the announcement at the main page because no one remembered about it
<jsgotangco> heh
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> as froud said to me the other day
<mdke> that's opensource
<jsgotangco> hehe charge it to experience were learning
<jsgotangco> its fun
<mdke> its ok for us to learn
<mdke> but the website should be a bit more professional i think
<jsgotangco> i agree
<mdke> the website bugs don't get assigned/fixed
<mdke> maybe it could be raised at the CC or TB meeting 
<jsgotangco> i think the whole team should meet onetime before UDU so we can have stuff to present
<mdke> well its not really a docteam issue IMO
<jsgotangco> true
<mdke> the stuff we've discussed on list is of course
<mdke> but not this issue
<jsgotangco> yah
<jsgotangco> just a suggestion
<jsgotangco> heh
<mdke> i'll try and raise it at one of those meetings
<mdke> see if they think its the appropriate forum
<mdke> where are the releasenotes btw jsgotangco ?
<jsgotangco> the published one?
<mdke> yeah
<jsgotangco> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/support/ReleaseNotes504/document_view
<mdke> you know anything about an xml2html tool?
<jsgotangco> no sorry
<froud-work> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/support/ReleaseNotes504/
<jsgotangco> hi
<froud> hey
<mdke> aha
<froud> oh oh
<mdke> hey boss you know how to convert xml to html?
<froud> sure xmlto
<froud> you write an xslt
<jsgotangco> jeezz wikipedia is fast
<mdke> hmm
<froud> what type of xml is it
<mdke> froud, i was thinking perhaps a conversion without having to do anything
<mdke> froud, its releasenotes
<froud> docbook
<froud> use docbook xsl
<jsgotangco> i was just wondering why the i8ln releasenotes not published on the web as well
<mdke> right
* mdke installs busily
<mdke> do i need docbook-xsl and xmlto?
<froud> xsltproc --xinclude --stringparam base.dir dirname $(HTMLXSL) quickguide/quick-guide.xml
<froud> you want to transform our release notes
<froud> or some others
<mdke> ours
<froud> make rn
<froud> you should have docbook dtd, xsl, xsltproc, xmllint installed
<froud> in trunk do make rn
<froud> then it will do the rest for you
<mdke> docbook dtd?
<froud> yep
<mdke> i can't find it with apt-cache search docbook|grep dtd
<froud> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/ForTheHasty
* mdke 's head swims
<froud> sudo apt-get install docbook-xsl
<mdke> ok i can understand that
<froud> sudo apt-get install docbook
<jsgotangco> id love to do this later when my head is clear of alcohol
<froud> sudo apt-get install xmllint
<froud> sudo apt-get install xsltproc
<jsgotangco> ill just log :D
<mdke> jsgotangco, shame on you
<mdke> xmllint?
<froud> oh instaled by xsltproc
<froud> ignore
<mdke> ok i have those
<froud> go to trunk
<froud> do
<froud> make rn
<froud> then look in the build/
<mdke> cool
<mdke> hmm
<froud> yeah no need to work hard once it is scripted
<mdke> its only made -fr and -xh
<froud> release-notes.xml
<froud> release-notes.html
<froud> it is there
<mdke> yes
<froud> there you go then
<mdke> but it has made the english, french and xhosa version
<mdke> not the other languages for some reason
<froud> yes
<froud> that is what we had at the time
<mdke> oh i c
<mdke> is it difficult for me to make one manually?
<froud> no
<mdke> am trying that command you posted
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> no good
<mdke> htmlxsl command not found
<froud> svn up in trunk
<froud> do make rn
<mdke> thanks man
<mdke> ok i'm just unlucky
<mdke> froud, thanks for doing that
<mdke> i am unlucky tho
<froud> mdke: no problem
<mdke> the italian one doesn't build
<mdke> must be an error in the xml
<froud> hold lemme check
<froud> I am not happy that we never got the translations in
<froud> perhaps we can do them as an update
<froud> mdke: svn up
<froud> do make rn
<froud> This is why I am gonna script it all for next release. Fire and forget
<froud> too many things to update close to release
<mdke> we didn't get the translations in?
<mdke> i didn't know that
<jsgotangco> huh?
<froud> Not they are in
<froud> the html
<froud> the xml is there
<mdke> phewwwwwww
<froud> we did not ship html
<jsgotangco> you mean the html for the site
<mdke> you nearly gave me heart failure
<froud> yeah
<froud> no all the xml that was in got shipped
<jsgotangco> thats what we were talking about before you came back
<froud> yeah the html never got shipped
<mdke> :)
<froud> you have italian now:-)
<mdke> yeah thanks :)))
<mdke> i'm gonna send around
<froud> basically the new build system will not rely on anyone updating the make file
<froud> so long as there is an xml it will do it automatically
<froud> so as soon as we svn add a po file we will get an xml and html
<jsgotangco> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Alexander_VI
<mdke> ok i need to go
<mdke> thanks a million froud 
<froud> no worries c ya
<mdke> cya soon
<jsgotangco> ok im gonna sleep
<jsgotangco> see ya
<froud> jsgotangco: c ya
<hsprang> hy, I'd like to ask, if somebody knows what happend to the howto section on the ubuntu website?
#ubuntu-doc 2005-04-20
<mdke> hi
<Flonne> Hi.
<Burgundavia> Kinnison, ping
<Burgundavia> mdke, you here?
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> hiya
<Burgundavia> do you have a dvd player?
<mdke> yes
<Burgundavia> you have totem-gstreamer?
<mdke> not sure
<mdke> if its in ubuntu-desktop
<Burgundavia> about on totem will tell you
<mdke> yeah ok i do
<mdke> inserting dvd now
<Burgundavia> see if it says it is streaming
<mdke> totem could not play dvd, reason unknown
<Burgundavia> ok
<Burgundavia> you have marillait repos
<mdke> no
<Burgundavia> aah
<mdke> but i have libdvdcss
<Burgundavia> add  deb ftp://ftp.nerim.net/debian-marillat/ unstable main
<Burgundavia> ok
<mdke> do i still need to add?
<Burgundavia> get libdvdcss2
<mdke> actually i think that is the one i have
<mdke> lemme check
<mdke> yes
<Burgundavia> I would add that repo anyway
<Burgundavia> and install that versin
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> i probably have the wrong version
<mdke> says 1.2.8-woody
<mdke> problem is I don't like marillat because it conflicts with my ubuntu mplayer
<mdke> anyway have added and am updating
<mdke> Burgundavia, dvd still not working
<Burgundavia> err
<Burgundavia> I just did a fresh install
<Burgundavia> gstremer didn't work on my old machine
<Burgundavia> but it does now
<mdke> running it from a terminal tells me that gstreamer doesn't seem to like video/mpeg or audio/x-ac3
<Burgundavia> hmm
<Burgundavia> it seems gstreamer is still borked
<mdke> have you tried with a new user?
<Burgundavia> I am a new user
<Burgundavia> I just reinstalled today
<mdke> oh
<Burgundavia> this why I am thinking about this
<Flonne> I'm about to re-install...
<Flonne> x86?
<Burgundavia> yes, I run x86
<mdke> Burgundavia, so its not normal for totem to dislike mpeg files?
<Burgundavia> yes
<Flonne> Want me to check/set anything when I do it?
<Burgundavia> totem-gstreamer is mostly borked
<Burgundavia> Flonne, not really
<Burgundavia> I am just looking to confirm some errors and usability glitches
<mdke> mplayer plays it fine
<mdke> pah
<Flonne> Do either of you have an amd64 system?
<Burgundavia> totem-xine is better, but patent encumbered
<Burgundavia> nope
<mdke> Flonne, no
<mdke> hmm when I say fine, I mean without sound
<Flonne> I can't seem to create a gstreamer object on mine, but that was Preview.
<Burgundavia> gstreamer is a very nice framework, but the plugins need some work
<Flonne> Oh, well... Gentoo server goes down; Ubuntu server goes up.
<Burgundavia> just a sec, going to reboot x
<mdke> Burgundavia, solved my totem issue i reckon
<mdke> there is a mpeg4, ac3, divx plugin
<Burgundavia> you needed gstreamer plugn
<mdke> thats what i mean
<mdke> yeah it's working now
<mdke> oh no
<mdke> its playing but it is slow as hell
<mdke> keeps freezing
<Burgundavia> dma
<Burgundavia> sudo hdparm -d 1 /dev/hdc
<mdke> thats not it
<Burgundavia> ok
<mdke> plays fine in mplayer
<Burgundavia> gstreamer used to that
<mdke> and its much slower than that
<Burgundavia> before I reinstalled
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> lemme install more plugins
<mdke> ok installing more plugins has improved it, but its still jerky and the sound is rubbish
<Burgundavia> any rss feeds you recommmend?
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> i use bbc world news and the ubuntu wiki new pages lol
<mdke> actually i wanted to ask about the docteam
<mdke> are we cracking on with some new guides now?
<Burgundavia> my major push for hoary is the faqguide
<Burgundavia> s/hoary/breezy
<mdke> heh
<mdke> has it been started?
<mdke> what other docs are there?
<Burgundavia> sort of
<Burgundavia> quickguide
<Burgundavia> and userguide
<mdke> userguide sounds interesting
<mdke> is that "how to set up my email client" stuff?
<Burgundavia> sort of
<Burgundavia> userguide and faqguide are going to have to define which is which
<Burgundavia> that is not clear yet
<mdke> what else is on?
<Burgundavia> update quickguide
<Burgundavia> and the portal
<mdke> no systemguide or anything?
<Burgundavia> ah yes
<Burgundavia> admin guide
<mdke> ok so lots
<mdke> when are we starting?
<Burgundavia> right now
<mdke> ok
<Flonne> I've got the Installation draft ready to go (well, as soon as I confirm the steps on an oldworld Mac), so I just need to know where to put it...
<Burgundavia> wiki for now
<mdke> Burgundavia, you know if its possible to get rid of this update manager chap in the panel?
<Burgundavia> the little red circle?
<mdke> that's the little devil
<Burgundavia> update your system
<Burgundavia> it will go away
<mdke> thats not the point!
<mdke> it will come back
<Burgundavia> it is there for a reason
<Burgundavia> you can
<Burgundavia> stop the daemon
<Burgundavia> and kill the cron.daily process
<mdke> it is there for a reason?
<Burgundavia> yes
<mdke> what happened to choice?
<Burgundavia> to tell people to update there machines
<Burgundavia> sorry, good default wins out
<mdke> i'm happy with default
<mdke> but there is nothing wrong with "remove from panel"
<Burgundavia> it is not in the panel
<Burgundavia> it is in the notification area
<mdke> ok yeah
<mdke> which is in the panel
<Burgundavia> you can kill the notif area
<Burgundavia> but it is a bad idea
<Flonne> But if you remove that, you lose everything it holds.
<mdke> especially because then xchat will close
<Burgundavia> huh?
<Flonne> I don't think that will close X-Chat...
<Burgundavia> mdke, it has been proven that users will not update unless forced to
<Burgundavia> shiny red icons screaming at them do that
<mdke> i don't dispute that
<mdke> but i don't want it
<Burgundavia> ok
<Burgundavia> 1. kill the daemon
<Burgundavia> 2. kill the startup that starts the daemon
<mdke> i don't think asking for that sort of choice is unreasonable
<Burgundavia> mdke, as an IT professional,  this is something that you SHOULD NOT be able to turn off
<Burgundavia> end of story
<Burgundavia> sorry
<mdke> rubbish
<mdke> i update my other systems
<mdke> and they don't have it
<mdke> i agree its a good idea to have it
<Burgundavia> yes, but we talking the great unwashed
<Burgundavia> and if you offer the option, people will turn it off
<mdke> ok
<Burgundavia> and that is a very very very bad thing
<mdke> 1. I don't dispute its a good default
<mdke> 2. unwashed people should be washed
<Burgundavia> mdke, it can be turned off
<Burgundavia> it has 2 parts
<mdke> instead of deodorised
<Burgundavia> a daemon that checks for updates
<Burgundavia> and the part that puts the icon there
<Burgundavia> kill the daemon, and you are set
<mdke> do you know how i can do that?
<Burgundavia> let me check
<mdke> perhaps removing it from my session and saving will be sufficient
<Burgundavia> might do
<mdke> yes that seems to have done the trick i think
<Burgundavia> the notification icon will put up with any update
<Burgundavia> thus if you reload in syn and it has updates, it will do it then to
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> well i guess the user who wants to remove it can always uninstall it :/
<Burgundavia> that too
<Burgundavia> but I insist, there should be no reason to remove it
<Burgundavia> I keep my machines up to date too
<Burgundavia> but I still keep the icon
<mdke> another daemon
<Burgundavia> if you have a slow macine, then it might be an issue
<mdke> ok
<mdke> ok i'm off to bed
<mdke> good night
<Burgundavia> cya
<Flonne> Burgundavia, do you have any idea how to physically move a partition?
<Burgundavia> move?
<Burgundavia> gparted will grow and shrink parts
<Flonne> Yeah. Move every block from one location to another.
<Burgundavia> hmm
<Flonne> I know, but it only works on the tail.
<Burgundavia> it must be possible
<Flonne> At least the version I have...
<Flonne> I need to move the head down by about four gigs.
<Flonne> I could just create a new partition at the end, move all existing data into that, remove the first partition, create a new one four gigs up, move all the data back, restroy the temp partition, then grow the one that's left, but that seems horribly slow and it would be a total hackjob.
<Flonne> destroy*
<Burgundavia> I was thinking that might be the only way to do ti
<Flonne> Ah... It looks like parted can do what I want, but its interface is quite cryptic.
<Flonne> (gparted seems to lack this... Maybe it's unsafe)
<Flonne> Bleh. I get a "Can't move a partition onto itself error."
<Burgundavia> try gparted or qtparted
<Flonne> Too late; it b0rked. :)
<Burgundavia> hmm?
<Flonne> A reiserfsck recovered everything importantish, but the move failed.
<Burgundavia> http://www.ebaumsworld.com/badgers.html
<froud> African Greetings
<froud> puke my DSL router gave in on me last night.
<Burgundavia> great
<Burgundavia> hmm
<Burgundavia> I am working on this ubuntu brochure
<Burgundavia> should i committ to the generic folder in the branch?
<froud> cool what ubuntu brochue?
<froud> is it about GNOME or/and KDE
<froud> If about both it goes in Generic
<Burgundavia> hmm
<Burgundavia> just mentions Ubuntu right now
<froud> if about GNOME put in gnome
<froud> gnome
<froud> check it in under gnome
<Burgundavia> ok
<sivang> howdy all
<froud> hello sivang 
<Burgundavia> salut
* froud is busting his &^% on th emake system
<sivang> salutte Burgundavia , ahalan froud
<froud> mienyanim
<froud> kohev li ha rosh
<sivang> froud: lama ma kara? hakol beseder ahi ?
<froud>    '      
<Burgundavia> I see unicode
<froud> its in hebrew
<Burgundavia> I figured as much
<Burgundavia> there is a really crazy of teaching hebrew in Ubuntu
<sivang> froud: ooops, my unicode is broken at the moment 
<froud> so you dont see the hebrew characters
<sivang> Burgundavia: there is? who else is on the craze?
<sivang> froud: let's stick to fonetic if you wish
<sivang> :-)
<froud> what craze?
<Burgundavia> sivang, Kinnison 
<froud> No I speak it
<Burgundavia> they dance when I highlight them
<froud> I just never type in hebrew characaters
<sivang> Burgundavia: eh, the poor guy I owe him some docs with some instrucitnons...
<sivang> Burgundavia: froud knows hebrew probably better then me :-)
<Burgundavia> I must say, the hebrew is almost unreadable
<Burgundavia> very very small and light
<froud> Burgundavia: speaks hebrew
<froud> oh my bad
<froud> now I get it
<froud> no way sivang my hebrew is bad
<sivang> Kinnison: ping
<froud> sivang: do you see the hebrew characters?
<sivang> froud: no, unicode is broken from whre I am currently
<froud> oh well
<sivang> froud: have you been contacted by someone from the .IL LocoTeam, I forwarded him the files yous sent me, he seemed keento help tranlate them
<froud> but my keyboard does not have hebrew keys so it is hard to remember where stuff is :-)
<froud> sivang: cool
<froud> I go back to hacking now, c ya
<sivang> froud: laters
<froud> 521 or 571 MB of Kubuntu iso downloaded :-)
<froud> I am gonna spread Kubuntu far and wide :-)
* froud "Burgundavia will come to Kubuntu"
* Burgundavia resists
<jsgotangco> good evening everyone :)
<Burgundavia> go morning
<Burgundavia> s/go/good
<jsgotangco> Burgey
<jsgotangco> if i remember before you were making a presentation for ubuntu
<jsgotangco> for a local lug?
<Burgundavia> hmm
<Burgundavia> bigger than that
<Burgundavia> Linux fest north west
<jsgotangco> i got invited to speak to a conference
<jsgotangco> for Ubuntu
<Burgundavia> cool
<jsgotangco> but i have no idea what to present
<Burgundavia> join the club
<jsgotangco> what were you planning?
<jsgotangco> anyway the conference is still in October
<Burgundavia> my talk is called Ubuntu:Not just a funny name anymore
<Burgundavia> basically a look at Ubuntu, then and now
<Burgundavia> the audience is mostly geeks
<jsgotangco> hmmm
<Burgundavia> who probably know a lot more than me
<jsgotangco> can i take a peek at your notes?
<Burgundavia> hmm
<Burgundavia> 21 days
<jsgotangco> its ok
<jsgotangco> no rush
<jsgotangco> mines october anyway
<Burgundavia> I figure I will start writing about the 25th of Apr
<Burgundavia> there are some good talks already on the wiki
<jsgotangco> but since its october i was thinking of breezy
<jsgotangco> so i still have a 6 month headstart
<Burgundavia> hmm
<Burgundavia> good plan
<Burgundavia> when is your talk?
<jsgotangco> No definite date yet but the organizer said late Sept/early Oct.
<Burgundavia> just before Breezy launches
<Burgundavia> good timing
<jsgotangco> yeah thats what i had in mind
<jsgotangco> the organizer asked if they could invite someone from canonical say mako, but i asked them if they are willing to shoulder costs on bringing him over
<Burgundavia> mako is in NYC
<Burgundavia> better to grab jdub
<jsgotangco> good idea
<Burgundavia> because dist aust-->phil is < nyc-->phil
<jsgotangco> well i heard mako went to shanghai a few months ago for AsiaOSC
<Burgundavia> mako is canonicals community rep
<Burgundavia> that is odd
<Burgundavia> xchat just died
<jsgotangco> agghhh wiki work
<jsgotangco> hi enrico
<Burgundavia> salut enrico 
<enrico> Hi all!
<jsgotangco> ok i go to dinner first
<jsgotangco> bbl
<enrico> whoops!  The release notes mention the FAQ Guide :)
<jsgotangco> and our FAQ in the site is empty :(
<mdke> hi all
<mdke> afternoon froud 
<froud> 'ello
<jsgotangco> hi guys
<maskie> hi froud
<jsgotangco> i was reading thru the logs
<froud> ello maskie
<jsgotangco> does development for breezy also branch then later merged to their trunk?
<froud> how's cape town today
<maskie> hot and windy
<froud> warm up here, no wind
<jsgotangco> i watched a silly movie with my daughter today
<maskie> the wind is not that bad today
<claude> snow in Switzerland :-P
<mdke> nice
<jsgotangco> i wish we had snow here in asia
<Burgundavia> snow is evil
<mdke> whereabouts in switzerland are you claude ?
<mdke> Burgundavia, snow = skiing :)
<Burgundavia> that is fine
<Burgundavia> snow belongs on ski hills
<Burgundavia> not on driveways
<jsgotangco> poo in snow is bad
<mdke> good point
<xhosa> oook Kubuntu rocks
<Burgundavia> xhosa, you are still froud
<jsgotangco> i was thinking of a good motto for us to think about when doing stuff
<Burgundavia> stop astroturfing
<xhosa> yep
<claude> mdke: Chaux-de-Fonds (Neuchatel)
<jsgotangco> I can only think of one
<jsgotangco> PUU - People Use Ubuntu
<jsgotangco> but i want something much better
<mdke> jsgotangco, just put on eye of the tiger or something
<Burgundavia> UPYOURS
<jsgotangco> in spongebob its POOP - People Order Our Patty
<Burgundavia> Ubuntu People Yes Our Ubuntu Rocks
<mdke> S
<jsgotangco> UP YOURS
<jsgotangco> ?
<Burgundavia> UPYOURS - Ubuntu People Yes Our Ubuntu Rocks
<mdke> so what's going on?
<jsgotangco> but i was thinking of having the end user in mind to remind us
<mdke> it looks like we're having some kind of meeting ;)
<xhosa> Hmm, I am considering ditching my SuSE for Kubuntu
<jsgotangco> how is kubuntu? i gotta try that next week
<xhosa> jsgotangco: very smooth
<froud> jsgotangco: definately worth downloading the iso
<claude> froukde :)
<jsgotangco> I WILL :D
<mdke> it cohabits happily with gnome right?
<jsgotangco> jridell did a good job i heard
<jsgotangco> i like the 3 dragons
<jsgotangco> they should keep that
<froud> yes
<mdke> yes it cohabits with gnome?
<froud> but once you use it you will unistall your gnome
<froud> :-)
<mdke> so how does it work, I keep using gdm?
<jsgotangco> i think kdm has much better handling for other de
<jsgotangco> compared to gdm
<froud> agreed
<froud> http://www.kubuntu.org.uk/documentation.php
<jsgotangco> the the wireless monitor in kde works even with ndiswrapper..it doesnt work with our gnome
<mdke> ok that's a good document
<mdke> but no way vis-a-verse is a real word :p
<mdke> ok i'll try installing it on my laptop
<jsgotangco> whoa froud you did this by yourself?
<mdke> is it going to be hard to remove it afterwards?
<jsgotangco> i dont think so
<jsgotangco> your gnome settings still are there (mostly)
<mdke> huh? mostly?
<jsgotangco> well thats what i experienced in mdk b4
<mdke> what did you lose?
<jsgotangco> not much of an impact but i dont remember specifically but with apt it wont be much of a problem i guess
<jsgotangco> what does KGX mean?
<mdke> apt is not great at removing things
<jsgotangco> oohh charles got married *grin*
<mdke> yeah
<jsgotangco> im not that familiar with euro monarchs but camilia looks like that guy from rolling stones
<mdke> how dare you insult my country
<mdke> mick jagger is a lot better looking than her
<claude> lol
<jsgotangco> hahah
<jsgotangco> does she become queen when charles becomes king?
<mdke> i've stopped listening to that part of the news
<mdke> but i think so
<jsgotangco> their marriage got in between the pope and rainier's death
<daven> no, she gets a funny title
<daven> "Princess Consort"
<daven> which means she'll never become queen
<jsgotangco> good thing theyll never have kids
<daven> i think they're too old
<daven> gosh - i *hope* they're too old
<jsgotangco> jeezz i know im going to be old like them but thinking about what theyre going to do later gives me goosebumps
<froud> nrings new meaning to the phrase "long live the queen"
<jsgotangco> ahhh children are gods gift indeed
* froud nods
<froud> getting close to commiting new make system in branch
<froud> must do testing tonight
<froud> then commit
<froud> hope I dont delete all the files on your hard disks
<jsgotangco> ok ive been reading thru that link you gave me and learning a lot
<froud> which svn book
<froud> it is a must read
* froud welcome back enrico 
<froud> we missed you buddy
<enrico> hi!
<jsgotangco> its been a while
<jsgotangco> goodnite everyone
<froud> good night
<froud> enrico: do you want the english document to be in C?
<froud> enrico: or is the root of the working folder?
<enrico> froud: no idea
<froud> enrico: each i18n document will have its own dir
<froud> what is easier for packaging?
<enrico> philosophically, I'd like every language to have its own directory
<froud> ok we are using the ISO naming convention fr, ca, de etc you want english doc in en
<enrico> for packaging, I'm doing so many rearranging at deb-build time that I tend to believe anything is fine :)
<froud> yeah I want to reduce the rearranging
<froud> cut down on over head
<enrico> It mainly depends how it'll need to be installed in the resulting system
<enrico> the bigger problems were the links to ../lib and so on (and I needed to do lots of symlinks)
<enrico> I don't know if we can foresee what destination will be for Breezy
<enrico> (although we could assume that it's the same as now
<enrico> )
<froud> I have many libs now
<enrico> in which case, we have problems anyway in sharing images
<froud> one for common, one for gnome, one for kde, one for generic
<froud> menu system is lang specific and auto built
<enrico> awesome
<froud> Ok I will leave the en doc in the root of the working folder
<froud> that way it is easier to find for authors
<froud> and denotes that it is the driver for all else
<froud> btw, OMF files are also created dynamic on first instance
<froud> I think we should keep OMF files with their documents
<froud> last time we forgot to translate them
<froud> we had to rush it at the last second
<enrico> in that case, call it C
<enrico> yes, exactly.  OMF files should not be separate
<froud> OK C it will be
<froud> if I make the dir it saves you having to make it, right?
<enrico> froud: say it again?
<enrico> ah, ok
<froud> if we develop the english document is C it saves you having to make it
<enrico> y..yess
<froud> In build I will create gnome/docuname/C/
<froud> gnome/docuname/fr/
<froud> gnome/docuname/de/
<froud> etc
<enrico> yes
<froud> ok cool, so glad you are back :-)
<enrico> Limited time, though
<froud> huh why?
<enrico> now I'm in a bit of information overload.
<enrico> also
<enrico> full time job getting more and more full time
<froud> ouch I think I better learn the deb packaging stuff, sooner than later. Must find time though
<froud> first get the new restructure over
<enrico> froud: you do already a lot with the docbook stuff :)
<froud> practically making everything automatic
<froud> only one problem
<froud> cant make a single document
<froud> have to build all gnome
<froud> or kde
<froud> or generic
<froud> :-(
<froud> must find method
<enrico> how come?
<froud> each do now will have a file called modvars.make
<froud> looks like this
<froud> BUILD_FILE=/index.html
<froud> HTML_XSL=../libs/about-ubuntu-html-cust.xsl
<froud> FIG_DIR=../images
<froud> DOC_NAME=about-ubuntu
<froud> LANG=C
<froud> OMF_FILE=$DOC_NAME-$LANG.omf
<froud> SUBJECT="General|Linux|Distributions|Other"
<froud> IDENTIFIER=file:///usr/share/gnome/help/$DOC_NAME/$LANG/$DOC_NAME.xml
<froud> SERIES_ID=7fb11226-8a1d-11d9-9fcf-ff970c259736
<froud> it gets sourced from the top make
<froud> the code that does the work is generic
<froud> so it can be applied to generic, kde and gnome
<froud> I just need to find a way of passing a single module to the code
<enrico> I can't look at it now (brain exploding), but a general suggestion: don't overdesign
<mdke> lol
<froud> sure, can be a problem
* mdke hands enrico a cold towel
<froud> what you loling at mdke 
<mdke> poor enrico
<froud> you can lol when you come to kde
<mdke> i'm just logging in now
<mdke> laughing out loud at the time its taking to login
<mdke> omg
<mdke> and also lol @ login sound
<froud> cool 
<enrico> froud: also look at http://www.c2.com/cgi/wiki?YouArentGonnaNeedIt
<froud> everything I now impliment is from the experience with hoary
<enrico> froud: that's always a good read :)
<froud> we had to mant things to touch in the make and packaging for my liking
<enrico> but that's not an opinion on what you're doing: I trust what you do
<froud> sure
<froud> there are howver things poping in between my ears, but we have not needed them, yet
* mkde looks around
<froud> mdke run KControl dude
<froud> and see the power
<mkde> lol
<mkde> i'm familiar with kde
<enrico> froud: :)  yes, when something's not needed, it's useful to postpone it
<enrico> or to not thing about it
<enrico> because when it'll be needed, it'll be needed in a different way you are thinking of coding it today :)
<froud> enrico: you know me I am lazy as hell
<froud> script everything, that's the way to get out of work and go to the beach
* froud wonders how to script and author
<enrico> then at the beach you get a mobile phone ring saying that the script broke :)
<mdke> argh
<mdke> kde has inserted a wastebin on my gnome desktop
* mdke slaps kde
<enrico> (that's why you never should go to the beach with the mobile phone.  Bullshit that it's because of the sand :)
<froud> lol
<froud> gnome should have a wastebin on the desktop. Its a design flaw of gnome, not KDE
<mdke> *cough*
<froud> hey I got scripts to write
<mdke> its a bug in ubuntu
<froud> yes, not Kubuntu
<froud> c ya
<mdke> froud, i do not distinguish
<froud> back to scripts
<mdke> k
<froud> enrico: can I call a make target from within a make target
<froud> 1:
<froud> .....
<froud> make 2:
<enrico> sure
<froud> OK
<enrico> $(MAKE) 2 is better, I think
<froud> enrico: like this
<froud> all: gnome kde generic
<froud> gnome:
<froud> 
<froud> 	DIR = `ls -d gnome/`
<froud> 	SUB_DIR = `ls -d $DIR*/`
<froud> 	BUILD_DIR = $(BUILDBASE)/$(DIR)
<froud> 	make build
<froud> kde:
<froud> 	DIR = `ls -d kde/`
<froud> 	SUB_DIR = `ls -d $DIR*/`
<froud> 	BUILD_DIR = $(BUILDBASE)/$(DIR)
<froud> 	make build
<froud> generic:
<froud> 	DIR = `ls -d generic/`
<froud> 	SUB_DIR = `ls -d $DIR*/`
<froud> 	BUILD_DIR = $(BUILDBASE)/$(DIR)
<froud> 	make build
<froud> build:
<enrico> I think it should work
<froud> OK where build is the same object code for each make target
<froud> and build loads modvars.make from each document in for loop
<mdke> does anyone here know how to call ssh commands with a particular key? I haven't had an answer in #ubuntu so am trying here in desperation
<enrico> froud: actually, you should do it differently
<enrico> you rename modvars.make in Makefile
<froud> ok
<enrico> then include a makefile snipped with the common stuff
<enrico> then make the makefile in the upper dir invoke the makefiles in the lower sones
<froud> but then I have multiple make files
<enrico> then if you want to only build or validate something, you cd into something ad do "make"
<enrico> sure
<froud> each needing attention
<enrico> every project has a makefile per directory
<enrico> not much attention, because they all define a bunch of vars (like your modvars.make do) then include THE makefile stuff
<enrico> from one single point
<froud> but for example about ubuntu uses a different XSL
<enrico> then you define the XSL name in the Makefile of about-ubuntu
<enrico> all the others use a default XSL file
<froud> Hmmm, ok must think about it. I can always split what I am doing now to work that way
<enrico> make does all the things of fixing paths to point to .., ../.. or whatever depending on the level of nesting (IIRC)
<froud> Ok what I will do is hack this way and then commit. that way more eyes can see it.
<froud> foood, grub, nosh time
<froud> back in a few minutes
<scorpix> hi
<froud> scorpix: hello
<scorpix> what program is good for translating the ubuntuguide.org?
<froud> we have ubuntuguide.org in svn and use pot/po via Rosetta
<froud> There is not easy way to do it via the web site
<froud> if you like you can hack the src and update it to hoary
<froud> the doc is currently at warty
<scorpix> is there a guide or a howto on using rosseta with svn?
<scorpix> cuz i usually use kbabel
<froud> not exactly, we have docbook xml src of that doc in svn and make a POT file when it need translation
<scorpix> where can i get rosetta?
<froud> scorpix: Rosetta is a web app
<froud> you get  the pot from there
<froud> but if you have svn src you can also just create a pot and do the po you want
<froud> using KBabel
<froud> but be warned that that doc is currently updated to warty so is out of date
<froud> do you want to translate the hoaryy version?
<froud> or the current version
<scorpix> back
<scorpix> yes i want to translate the hoary version
<froud> scorpix: the hoary version does not exist
<froud> we need to port the warty version to hoary
<froud> scorpix: if you feel like doing that then the src is in svn see http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocumentationTeam as your starting point
* froud if now off to bed. c ya
<mdke> woa
<mdke> early to bed ;)
#ubuntu-doc 2005-04-21
<jsgotangco> hi
<jsgotangco> bbl
<froud> African Greetings
<Burgundavia> salut
<mdke> morning all
<froud> noon
<mdke> hi froud 
<mdke> hi daven 
<daven> hiya
<mdke> dudes the new wiki is up
<Burgundavia> what sort of new wiki?
<mdke> a moin one
<mdke> you remember that one mark was talking about
<mdke> http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/
<daven> hmmm. is ubuntu very big "down under"?
<mdke> not sure
<mdke> its just where their next meeting is
<mdke> they have quite a few developers from there
<Burgundavia> jeff waugh is aussie
<mdke> https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/UbuntuWorldWide
<daven> ah ok.
<mdke> not bad that wiki
<daven> small but well-formed :)
<Burgundavia> hmm
<Burgundavia> sorry, but it is not really doing it for me
<mdke> heh
<mdke> you don't like it more than zwiki?
<Burgundavia> I don't see any improvements
<mdke> it supports macros for a start
<Burgundavia> I guess I am spoiled when it comes to wikis
<mdke> :p
<Burgundavia> a bit like using a ferrari
<Burgundavia> the diff between a ford taurus and toyota tercel is not that much
<Burgundavia> because the tercel is a nicer car, but not that much
<mdke> haven't heard of either of em
<Burgundavia> taurus is crap american car
<mdke> so you're saying MediaWiki is the Ferrari?
<Burgundavia> an older one, but yes
<daven> it's probably like a renault laguna and a ford mondeo :)
<Burgundavia> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Taurus
<mdke> ah ok
<mdke> the ford mondeo: classic
<daven> the renault laguna: funky keyless ignition
<daven> hehe
<Burgundavia> right
<Burgundavia> you crazy euros and your different cars
<mdke> lol
<mdke> and our crazy currencies
<daven> :)
<mdke> daven, whereabouts are you from?
<daven> southampton, currently...
<mdke> aha
<daven> i see from your wiki entry that you're in london :)
<mdke> heh
<mdke> yes
<daven> i was thinking about (once i've hung around for a bit) working on some of the wiki pages.  looks like my motive is similar to yours :)
<mdke> ah cool
<daven> they're generally in pretty good shape compared to some i've seen, tho
<Burgundavia> the current wiki is a mess
<daven> hmmm. i'm not big on organising wikis
<mdke> the documentation is a mess certainly
<daven> but the content seems generally well-written?
<daven> (i've only had a cursory glance)
<mdke> heh that depends ;)
<daven> there were a few too many "one does this" for my liking :)
<mdke> i'm holding off working on trying to organise the structure because it seems that maybe we'll be moving to a new wiki, dunno
<mdke> but the UserDocumentation stuff IMO should be organised into categories, it would make it easier for us to use it in our guides as well
<daven> organising the info is the tricky part :)
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> daven, if you have any thoughts, check out https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/IdeasForNewFrontPageStructure and write em down!
<mdke> that would be cool
<daven> ok, thanks.  i'll have to try and have a better look through the docs this week
<mdke> :)
<Burgundavia> mdke, I am not seeing how swapping one wiki engine for another is good thing, unless there is a clear reason
<froud> Hmm how long does it take to update https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/UbuntuWorldWide
<maskie> froud about 15 min
<froud> I take it the map takes the long and lat inserted into the Where are you? list
<froud> hey maskie I see you on the tip of Africa :-)
<maskie> yes beat you to it
<froud> I didn't know there a banana biy in the team
<mdke> Burgundavia, i tend to agree
<mdke> froud, 30 mins i heard
<Burgundavia> hmm, there is one other dev in Victoria, and one in Nanaimo
<maskie> neither did I froud
<froud> maskie: cool, good to know. wonder what he works on
* froud wonders what does maskie works on
<froud> btw maskie how r the cow?
<maskie> froud see it is Craig Adams .. know he has a lot to do with OpenOffice here in South Africa
<froud> Dong, yes that is him
<mdke> hi jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> wassup dawgs
<jsgotangco> i mean
<jsgotangco> badgers
<mdke> talking of linux and badgers...
<jsgotangco> Dong?
<mdke> you guys seen that article about installing linux on a dead badger and making it into a zombie badger?
<Burgundavia> is funny, no?
<mdke> yeah seriously
<mdke> HM there are few people i can exchange programming stuff with here
<mdke> HM i hope he comes back
<mdke> HM plus he liked to argue
<mdke> whoops
<mdke> wrong paste
<mdke> http://www.strangehorizons.com/2004/20040405/badger.shtml
<Burgundavia> where is that other paste from? if I may ask
<mdke> another network lol
<mdke> Burgundavia, what time is it ET at the moment do you know?
<jsgotangco> hehe the UbuntuWorldWide wiki entry is the favorite among people to delete lately
<Burgundavia> 7:33 am
<Burgundavia> I assume ET = Eastern time
<mdke> jsgotangco, yeah it was deleted again
<mdke> Burgundavia, yeah thanks
<mdke> nearly time for the golf then
<jsgotangco> golf?
<jsgotangco> you play golf?
<mdke> well not much
<mdke> i watch it tho
<mdke> you?
<jsgotangco> i used to play in the amateur tourneys
<jsgotangco> but i lacked sponsors so i wasnt able to make it a serious endeavor
<mdke> cool
<mdke> i'm quite rubbish
<mdke> but its relaxing to watch on a sunday
<jsgotangco> the popular sports over here are rubbish
<jsgotangco> basketball, volleyball, tennis
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> i'm all over cricket
<jsgotangco> i dont understand that game
<mdke> but i quite like american sports
<jsgotangco> american football is ok
<mdke> yeah i like that
<mdke> and baseball
<mdke> but cricket is the only sport which is also an art ;)
<jsgotangco> i lost interest in the NBA after Jordan left
<jsgotangco> there are some euros over here who play that on weekends in a nearby field but i really dont get it
<mdke> heh
<daven_> all that standing around... ;-)
<mdke> mmmm
<jsgotangco> yah i even tried buying a cricket game for pc
<jsgotangco> i love those football management games though
<daven_> do you have "championship manager"? that's pretty popular over here... :)
<mdke> yeah i used to play that a bit
<jsgotangco> yah thats the one
<daven_> i played it a few times in 1993... but the constant updates you had to buy seemed a bit... money-grabbing!
<mdke> heh
<mdke> i play tetris
<jsgotangco> yah you have to get a new version every year
<mdke> or download one
<mdke> >_>
<mdke> <_<
<daven_> but an update costs nearly the same as the original game?
<daven_> legally, i mean ;-)
<mdke> now they're on CM5
<mdke> so you have to buy the whole game again
<jsgotangco> well the new mmorpgs games are worse..they charge you every month!
<daven_> gah!
<mdke> heh
<mdke> i'm thinking Tiger Woods is gonna do the biz today
<jsgotangco> her girl is hot
<mdke> yeah?
<mdke> his girl?
<jsgotangco> i mean his
<mdke> woah swedish model?
<jsgotangco> yah i read she's swedish somewhere
<mdke> omg she's seriously cute
<jsgotangco> hehe
<jsgotangco> in here, the lack of blondes make men think every blonde is hot
<mdke> she is tho
* mdke tells jsgotangco's wife he is looking at girls
<jsgotangco> gaahhh i wouldnt dare think of it anymore my child is a girl
<jsgotangco> its karma for me
<jsgotangco> hehe
<daven> i was wondering how long that would take :)
<mdke> daven, /msg nickserv ghost nickname password
<daven> right.  i'll just google for that :)
<daven> ah, i see.  i'd have to register first.
<mdke> yeh
* froud appologizes to those on the commit list.
<mdke> hmm
<jsgotangco> wha?
<froud> many commits today
<jsgotangco> i did receive a number
<jsgotangco> i havent svn up yet though
<froud> 11 commits each doing major move and add stuff
<froud> well so far only 11, expect another 11 by the time I am finished today
<mdke> i tried to experiment with committing the other day
<mdke> just as a test
<mdke> but it didn't work
<jsgotangco> hmm
<jsgotangco> you already got your account?
<mdke> no idea
<froud> mdke: did you get your user account
<mdke> but i didn't get that far
<mdke> nope
<froud> well then how can you commit?
<jsgotangco> i think james hasn't made the accounts yet
<mdke> froud, yeah i was just testing
<froud> no james is too busy stopping the servers from faling over
<mdke> i got as far as a text file asking me what i did
<froud> Ok -m "some message"
<froud> if you add the -m you will not get  that
<jsgotangco> bah mdke one word for you eSvn
<jsgotangco> :)
<mdke> i couldn't save the text file for some reason
<froud> it is vi
<froud> so i to insert
<froud> :w write
<mdke> i edited it ok, it was nano
<froud> :q quit
<mdke> but then when I saved and exited it didn't wk
<froud> nano ouch
<froud> vi dude, use vi
<froud> but I now gave you the better solution -m "......"
<mdke> right
<mdke> i will
<mdke> so then what happens after that?
<froud> and as jsgotangco told you eSvn
<mdke> is that a gui?
<froud> after that it commits
<froud> mdke: yes a front end to svn
<jsgotangco> yah however its kde not that kde is bad
<mdke> god you two and your guis
<froud> well you can suffer or you can get productive
<mdke> froud, so how do you specify your user account?
<jsgotangco> bah no need to go hardcore on svn the gui works the same and much better
<froud> on your first commit from the cli
<jsgotangco> i just changed my editor settings and i have 2 workspaces
<froud> you will be prompted for user name
<mdke> froud, right cool
<mdke> wonder why i couldn't save that text file
<froud> from there it will take your pgp key 
<froud> you weren'tusing eSvn :-)
<mdke> meh
<mdke> call me old fashioned
<mdke> but i like learning how things work
<froud> call me productive
<froud> in eSvn you get o see the commands
<froud> and so you learn faster
<jsgotangco> you learn stuff in eSvn heck i learned the purpose of blame
<froud> in eSvn you can also use the command prompt
<mdke> froud, you can be old fashioned and productive
<jsgotangco> froud did a good manual on eSvn
<froud> mdke: why use cli when you can have GUI and CLI in one solid app
<mdke> why not?
<froud> well eSvn does svn status for you
<jsgotangco> id rather multitask
<froud> you can see file status
* mdke looks for gSvn
<froud> and you can quickly construct complex commands
<jsgotangco> gSvn lol
<mdke> there is one
<jsgotangco> no shit
<mdke> why what's wrong with it?
<froud> eSvn is so far ahead
<jsgotangco> i think its not even alpha
<mdke> At the moment, gsvn has been mostly abandoned by its original authors, due to lack of time. The history of the project goes like this:
<froud> even has supprt for svn 1.1 which enrico tells me elmo is about to upgrade to
<jsgotangco> im installing kubuntu tommorow
<froud> cool another KDE dude
<mdke> i installed it yesterday
<mdke> but i still don't like it
<froud> and now mdke has the power to control his desktop
<mdke> slowly
<jsgotangco> i still think kde has better tools
<froud> +1
<jsgotangco> ive flirted with gnome long enough
<mdke> -1
<jsgotangco> spatial is too arcane for me
<froud> yep
<froud> who needs it
<froud> Konqueror just makes sense and things are nicely integrated
<mdke> gnome is home
<mdke> (TM)
<froud> lost souls use gnome
<jsgotangco> sure but even if im in kde i can still document stuff using a live cd
<mdke> thats just a coincidence
<mdke> jsgotangco, or log into gnome
<froud> jsgotangco: you can also use qemu
<jsgotangco> slack ditched gnome
<mdke> use ubuntu?
<mdke> how can a distro ditch gnome?
<froud> easy
<mdke> i dont' have any time for distros that do that
<jsgotangco> *grin*
<mdke> that's why I'm glad ubuntu has packaged kde in main
<mdke> everything should be there :)
<jsgotangco> does the dvd image have everything in main?
<mdke> guess so
<jsgotangco> froud: how big is the kubuntu team
<froud> small
<froud> but we can do more cause of kde
<froud> but kde in general is huge in europe
<jsgotangco> well i dont think kubuntu needs a huge team because the core is still ubuntu its just a de specific release
<mdke> nuhuh
<mdke> kde is in ubuntu
<mdke> but i don't think the team needs to be that large, as long as upstream is good :)
<froud> we should call them ubuntu, gubuntu and kubuntu
<mdke> froud, you're so divisive
<mdke> its all ubuntu
<froud> no it aint
<mdke> :)))
<mdke> yes it is
<froud> ubuntu has no desktop
<froud> gubuntu has a gnome desktop
<mdke> omg
<froud> kubuntu has a kde desktop
<froud> :-)
<mdke> ubuntu is a linux distro, on which you can install whatever the hell desktop you like
* froud grows horns
<mdke> gnome, kde, xfce, etc
<froud> xubuntu
<mdke> or no desktop
<jsgotangco> gaahhh
<jsgotangco> no thats too much
<froud> wmubuntu
<mdke> you don't see kgentoo or icewmgentoo
<mdke> its all gentoo
<mdke> just like its all ubuntu
<froud> perhaps that is the problem
<mdke> why?
<mdke> kde works nicely on my ubuntu
<mdke> well maybe not nicely, but properly
<froud> ubuntu should be about server
<froud> g/kubuntu should be about desktops
<jsgotangco> at the moment when people say ubuntu
<mdke> froud, please tell me you're not serious...
<jsgotangco> they say its desktop
<froud> It's a marketing thang
<jsgotangco> but Ubuntu isnt just a desktop
<jsgotangco> i think thats what he means
<jsgotangco> the perception right now is that Ubuntu is a dekstop distro much like linspire and xandros
<froud> From a marketing perspective it would be good to promote ubuntu as a server
<daven> i have been seeing ubuntu as a nicely finished desktop alternative to debian
<daven> although i'm beginning to realise i'm slightly off the mark :)
<mdke> froud, i couldn't disagree more strongly
<jsgotangco> expect the reviews for Ubuntu as a desktop
<froud> when you install Kubuntu you can disable the desktop with server option
<froud> the same for gubuntu
<froud> so ubuntu = server
<mdke> froud, are you really serious?
<mdke> or just playing
<froud> it's an idea
<jsgotangco> its good marketing
<mdke> its terrible
<mdke> ubuntu is a linux distribution
<froud> not from a marketing perspective
<mdke> i think so
<mdke> you don't need to market distributions separately for different uses
<mdke> server admins can decide on their own what they want to use
<froud> people who want a server dont want to download an iso that has stuff for desktop
<jsgotangco> but people perceive it as a desktop thing which is not
<mdke> froud, why not?
<mdke> its only a couple of hours more on 250kbits
<froud> dont have desktop on a server
<mdke> yeah, but you just don't install the desktop
<mdke> anyway, the cds are sent for free
<froud> in many countries bandwidth costs
<mdke> but if you're running a server, you have bandwidth
<froud> not in every case
<mdke> then you get the cd sent
<jsgotangco> that would take time
<mdke> they you improve the cd sending system
<froud> many people get x bandwidth in their subscription and then must pay for anyting above that
<mdke> *then
<froud> come on mdke admit it, it is a good marketing thing
<mdke> there is no point forking the distribution three ways for that
<mdke> froud, no i really disagree
<froud> who said ther eis a fork
<mdke> that is what you are suggesting basically
<froud> no
<jsgotangco> its the same base
<froud> kubuntu is not a fork
<jsgotangco> there is no fork
<jsgotangco> just different DE
<jsgotangco> like there is no spoon *grin*
<mdke> froud, i'm the one arguing kubuntu is not a fork, you are saying it is
<froud> no kubuntu is not a fork
<mdke> good
<froud> its all in the packaging
<jsgotangco> i got his point
<froud> if you want ubuntu with kde get kubuntu
<mdke> froud, ok listen, i'm not saying its a bad idea to make a minimal iso cd
<jsgotangco> just like how windows does their OS recently
<froud> if you want ubuntu with gnome with gnome get gubuntu
<froud> if you want niether get ubuntu
<mdke> ok if you're just talking about making iso's then i can agree with you
<Burgundavia> froud, WorldWide has been updated
<froud> so you could just install ubuntu and when you want a desktop apt-get install kubuntu-desktop
<mdke> although personally i would prefer "ubuntu-minimal, ubuntu-gnome, ubuntu-kde"
<mdke> because ubuntu-minimal could be for server, net-install etc
<froud> oh wow I am on the map
<Burgundavia> I am too, but I am hidden by others in my area
<froud> yes, but those names dont go well for marketing
<mdke> Burgundavia, i see you fine
* jsgotangco has a dot all for himself
<mdke> froud, my name for marketing would be ubuntu
<mdke> the names would just be for the purpose of making iso's with different things on
<Burgundavia> cya
<jsgotangco> bah just name it Ubuntu, Ubuntu w/ KDE and Ubuntu w/ Gnome
<mdke> froud, the reason everyone _thinks_ kubuntu is a fork is that it is marketed as a separate OS
<froud> well it is in a way
<mdke> see? Don't come telling me you don't see kubuntu as a fork
<froud> it is not a fork, but it is a different OS
<mdke> because you do
<froud> no I dont
<froud> it is a different version of the distro
<mdke> it is regarded as two different distributions
<mdke> especially because it has a separate entry on distrowatch
<froud> it is a different distro
<mdke> different distro = fork
<mdke> = sucks
<froud> no 
<mdke> you damn divisive kde users
<froud> it is not a fork
<mdke> ubuntu couldn't just have a kde team, it had to have a different distro
<froud> a fork is when the code slpits and nver merges, they grow apart over time
<mdke> ok well my language is sloppy
<froud> it is a different distro
<mdke> i believe strongly it isn't a different distro
<froud> the details are in the sematics
<jsgotangco> err how could it be different if its using the same stuff in main/universe?
<froud> semantics
<mdke> jsgotangco, quite
<mdke> froud, or as you call it, marketing
<froud> marketing dudes
<mdke> anyway it is divisive and it sucks
<jsgotangco> what a big Riddell we have
<jsgotangco> *grin*
<froud> I think it makes clear distinction in the users mind
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> it doesn't matter for now, but in the future it is important
<mdke> either ubuntu will continue to be marketed as a gnome reliant distro, or it will turn into a real distro with choice
<froud> if we have gnome and kde on the same cd we will need to ship two cd's
<jsgotangco> our release notes say we will have a choice (soon)
<mdke> as i said, its cool to have different cds
<mdke> one with gnome as default, one with kde, one without
<froud> now that is what I am saying
<froud> but for distinction it  should be gubuntu
<mdke> but if you kubuntu users get on your high horse and do this "different distro" stuff, ubuntu will never be a proper distro with choice, it will remain "gnome reliant"
<froud> Not true
<mdke> IYO
<froud> much stuff goes from kubuntu to ubuntu
<jsgotangco> i like dragons
<froud> breath of fire
<froud> no toe jam
<mdke> froud, you mean it isn't true that ubuntu is gnome reliant? If that is the case, then making the distinction is even more counterproductive
<froud> no ubuntu is marketed as gnome
<mdke> i know
<mdke> but it shouldn't be
<froud> it should be marketed as a server
<mdke> it should be marketed as a distro which does lots of things
<froud> if you want server penetration then you need it
<mdke> ok
<froud> the objective on all fronts is mass adoption
<mdke> well i think we've both made our opinions clear, we can stop now
<froud> whatever increases adoption
<mdke> agree to disagree
<froud> sure
<mdke> although i will say one more thing
<mdke> doing whatever it takes to increase adoption is not the right attitude IMO
<jsgotangco> well Debian isnt considered a desktop or server distro
<jsgotangco> its just Debian
<mdke> and is inconsistent with the Ubuntu spirit
<froud> yes, mdke you can have the last word
<froud> back to work for me
<mdke> hey
<jsgotangco> i think thats what Ubuntu should be
<mdke> i didn't mean it like that
<mdke> froud, i was just replying to your mass adoption point
<froud> just teasing you mdke :-) it's only an idea
<mdke> hmm
<jsgotangco> hey look
<jsgotangco> i found this on sladen's site
<jsgotangco> We picked GNOME, but I recognise that there are alot of people out there who love KDE and I'm working as hard as I can to encourage the KDE community to do their own version of Ubuntu.
<jsgotangco> *grin*
<jsgotangco> sabdfl
<mdke> pah
<jsgotangco> The next thing really has alot to do with gaining a critical-mass of users. I really do believe that if we have wide-spread adoption, even if that's wide-spread adoptionnot specifically of Ubuntu, but of one of the Ubuntu-related products or derivative distributionsthat within that critical mass of users we will be able to generate revenue without charging for the software or doing offensive stuff like forcing particular software c
<mdke> jsgotangco, he is a businessman
<jsgotangco> *grin*
<mdke> anyway this "mass adoption" business is overrated
* jsgotangco goes into borg mode
* mdke waits for linux viruses
<jsgotangco> resistance is futile....hahaha
<jsgotangco> kidding
<jsgotangco> ok lets stop this
<mdke> group hug
<jsgotangco> before we become ubuntu-docs-gnome and ubuntu-docs-kde
<mdke> heh
<jsgotangco> im not into male bonding
<jsgotangco> hehe
<jsgotangco> ok group hug
* mdke hugs
<jsgotangco> ok im outta here i gotta get up early tommorow
<jsgotangco> bye guys
<mdke> bye
<lizardking> hello
<lizardking> somebody?
<sladen> mdke: Ubuntu is like washing powder, if you're the one company that owns *both* brands you'll get twice as many customers...
<mdke> sladen, heh
<mdke> sladen, as i said before, its not about getting as many customers as possible
<sladen> hello
<mdke> hi
<mdke> sorry for the 8 hour lag
<mdke> wb
* Kinnison yawns and bids you good night
<mkde> night Kinnison 
#ubuntu-doc 2005-04-22
<jsgotangco> hello
<jsgotangco> hi Burgundavia
<Burgundavia> salut
<jsgotangco> brb /reboot to test kubuntu
<jsgotangco> im sorry i am now a Konvert
<Burgundavia> bah
<jsgotangco> hehe
<froud> African Greetings
<Burgundavia> salut
<Burgundavia> froud, what is the longterm plan for the svn repo in terms of branches and trunk?
<Burgundavia> I  am little confused
<froud> what's the problem
<Burgundavia> nothing, just looking for info
<froud> When I am finished in branch I will merge to trunk
<Burgundavia> ah
<Burgundavia> ok
<Burgundavia> that is what I thought
<froud> in the interim people can continue working on trunk
<Burgundavia> for new stuff, should I check into the branches?
<froud> you can work in either branch or trunk
<Burgundavia> ok
<froud> it's up to you
<froud> I did it in branches so as not to disrupt the trunk
<froud> it gets confusing when your document keeps moving around
<Burgundavia> oh crap
<Burgundavia> I think I just made a huge huge error
<froud> what error
<Burgundavia> my gpg key
<froud> what about it
<froud> hmmm, no just your public key
<jsgotangco> hail froud
<jsgotangco> i have been konquered
<Burgundavia> bah
<froud> jsgotangco: welcome
<froud> jsgotangco: isn't kde just a pleasure to work with after working with an arcain desktop like gnome?
* Burgundavia spys something under the bridge
<jsgotangco> aye my desktop is much snappier now i noticed and the fonts are good
<jsgotangco> but where oh where is my esvn shortcut?
<froud> under development?
<jsgotangco> i only have bluefish
<jsgotangco> hrrmm
<jsgotangco> ill just add a manual link
<froud> can do
<froud> I normally add eSvn to th ekicker
<jsgotangco> jeezz kde 3.4 is just miles ahead
<froud> I know
<jsgotangco> riddell just did something that surpassed ubuntu gnome imo
<froud> btw did you know that in konqueror you can just do media://
<froud> yeah Riddle is good, been with KDE for long
<froud> The HAL Layer integration is really cool
<jsgotangco> ill most likely keep this and help out with kubuntu
<jsgotangco> but the kicker says 5.4
<jsgotangco> hehe
<jsgotangco> not 5.04
<froud> Brilliant, I need doc members for kde docs
<froud> yeah seems we weren't the only ones who got it wrong :-)
<froud> but we fixed it
<jsgotangco> froud: when do we get action into branch when breezy opens i guess?
<froud> we dont action in branch
<jsgotangco> we still do trunk?
<froud> we are just making changes to our structure there
<froud> I will merge back into trunk
<froud> and then we work in trunk
<jsgotangco> hmmm so i guess theres no use in keeping my wc of branch here
<froud> well if you want to work on the branch you must keep it
<froud> if not then rm
<froud> if you did a checkout from repos/ then the restructure branch will disappear when I merge to trunk
<jsgotangco> i did make a checkout
<froud> form where, the branches/ or the repos/
<froud> when you do checkout from repos/ you get the tags/ branches/ trunk/ vendor/ directories
<jsgotangco> repos/branches/restructure
<jsgotangco> https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/branches/restructure
<froud> OK so that means if you are not going to work on branch that you will not need it
<jsgotangco> what work is there to do in branch anyway?
<froud> just the restructure stuff
<jsgotangco> ok ill just remove this then
<froud> sure
* Burgundavia is steamed at himself about the gpg thing
<jsgotangco> you forgot your keys?
<Burgundavia> no, even stupider
<Burgundavia> I reinstalled, that is all you should need to know
<jsgotangco> arrgghhh
<Burgundavia> luckily, I have a revoking cert, and nobody has signed it yet
<Kinnison> Morning all
<froud> morn
<Kinnison> Burgundavia: silly moo
<Burgundavia> salut Kinnison 
<Burgundavia> better to learn now then later
* Kinnison nods
* Kinnison recommends you spend the $20 on a usb keyfob
<Kinnison> Or rather, $60 so that you have one which won't die
* Kinnison recommends you find a retailer of Netac ones. The U220 is pretty good and metal
<jsgotangco> HI
<jsgotangco> i use the Buffalo brand made in japan
<jsgotangco> i once left it in the dash of my car on midday and i thought it was fried
<jsgotangco> but it still works
<Burgundavia> a had one that survived the washing machine long enough for me to raw dump the data off of it
<jsgotangco> jeezz im beginning to love KDE more
<jsgotangco> somebody slap me before i become one of them
<Burgundavia> resist the dark side my son
<froud> leave him alone before I set Kongi on you
<Burgundavia> 3 feet tall and all fight. My gnomes will take your dragon any day
<froud> breath of fire
<Burgundavia> evasion
<froud> dynamite comes in small packages
* Kinnison worries that we should rename this channel #ubuntu-larpg
<jsgotangco> why oh why Konqueror is more superior on browsing samba shares than nautilus
<Burgundavia> Nautilus is semi-crap
<jsgotangco> -1
<jsgotangco> hello
<mdke> hi all
<jsgotangco> hi mdke
<jsgotangco> i got Konquered
<froud> mdke: hello
<mdke> hi froud, jsgotangco 
<froud> hope you are well after yesterdays teasing :-)
<mdke> good thanks :)
<jsgotangco> nyahaha
<mdke> you?
<froud> good
<jsgotangco> i should have saved the logs
<mdke> jsgotangco, i have em
<jsgotangco> woohooo proof of treason eh?
<mdke> i always log ;)
<mdke> plus boglot has em too
* mdke points
<jsgotangco> ooohhh
<jsgotangco> i didnt know that
<mdke> heh
<mdke> he does lots of channels
<mdke> its a cool service
<jsgotangco> hmmm launchpad is borked?
<mdke> yes
<mdke> they are updating
<mdke> yay!
<jsgotangco> 502 Bad Gateway
<mdke> yeap
<jsgotangco> mdke i cant see you in the map did you add yourself?
<mdke> heh
<mdke> difficult to find us europeans on the map
<jsgotangco> yah
<mdke> you should be able to find me on the list tho
<jsgotangco> i have my dot for myself
<mdke> i reckon i've got to be the closest to 0 longtitude
<jjesse> wow lots of updates over the weekend it seems
<jjesse> exit
<carlos> hi
<Flonne> Hi.
<jjesse> hello
<mdke> hi carlos Flonne jjesse daven 
<mdke> hi sdoyle 
<sdoyle> hey
<daven> hiya
<mdke> hi Cturtle claude :)
<carlos> mdke: I will need some help with the FAQ format. I'm not too used to wiki (at least Ubuntu's wiki does not work as the one I usually work with)
<mdke> carlos, i'd be really happy to help finally
<carlos> mdke: how could I get some love from ubuntu-doc?
<carlos> mdke: thank you
<mdke> carlos, just dump it in plain text and i'll clear it up
<mdke> carlos, or if you prefer, just ask questions :)
<carlos> feel free to improve the English text also :-)
<mdke> mate your english is great
<carlos> mdke: I don't have time to fight with it now, if you can add some formatting to the current faq, I will learn from it 
<mdke> carlos, be happy to
<carlos> mdke: thank you
<mdke> carlos, is it done already?
<carlos> yes
<carlos> https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/RosettaFAQs
<mdke> ok
<claude> Rosetta FAQ ? great :)
<carlos> claude: I'm tired to answer always the same questions at rosetta-users :-)
<mdke> yeah its a good idea
<claude> +1
<mdke> heh
<carlos> feel free to add anything there, if you don't know the answer, add the question and point me to it so I will try to answer it, ok?
<claude> carlos: what about the languages variations (French, French(France), ...) ?
<carlos> claude: yeah, I need to add it also there
<mdke> i'll add a link to RosettaWishList
<carlos> until we implement a way to restrict it in Rosetta
<carlos> mdke: perfect, thanks
<mdke> carlos, ok i've done a bit, its not exactly beautiful but hopefully it'll do
<daven> wow - the formatting makes quite a difference! :)
<carlos> mdke: it looks better than mine :-). Thank you!
<daven> if only i knew what rosetta was i'd understand what a good FAQ it was :)
<daven> i think i need to read a different faq to find out what rosetta is ;-)
<mdke> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/Rosetta?
<carlos> daven: https://launchpad.ubuntu.com/rosetta/+about
<daven> gah! very good :) i really do just need to sit down and read!
<daven> carlos, did you write your faq from scratch?
<carlos> daven: from an email I sent to rosetta-users about two hours ago, why?
<daven> carlos, i was just thinking that your english is good for a non-native
<carlos> daven: thanks
<mdke> :)
<carlos> mdke: is there any way to add a list of all questions on the top with links to the answers under that list?
<mdke> fraid not
<carlos> ok
<mdke> carlos, there is no anchoring in our wiki yet for Moin
<mdke> :/
<carlos> don't worry, I suppose we should split the faq into different pages when they grow too much.
<carlos> mdke: any way to remove the "subtopics" links at http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/Rosetta ?
<carlos> those links are already integrated into that page
<mdke> no fraid not
<mdke> its just the parenting system
<carlos> ok
<carlos> and last question for today :-)
<mdke> shoot
<carlos> RosettaFAQs or RosettaFAQ? what's better ? 
<mdke> heh
<mdke> good question
<mdke> my opinion is FAQ, but that is only my personal opinion
<mdke> i don't think it matters much tbh :)
<carlos> Then, if people complains will change it  :-)
<mdke> ok
<sm> hey mdke, all
<mdke> hey stranger :)
<mdke> nice to see ya
<mdke> sm, get my email about those icons?
<sm> I did.. I'll do that now
<mdke> yay
<sm> iirc I just rename these to UserConfigPic.png, UserConfigPic2.png ?
<sm> done
<mdke> sm, thanks
<mdke> sm, how you been?
<sm> very good thanks.. and yourself ?
<mdke> fine ty
<sm> have been away from ubuntu site for a bit
<sm> it's looking better now :)
<mdke> yeah its pretty
<mdke> still b0rked tho
<sm> in what ways
<mdke> well that redirect thing, and the cache stuff
<sm> yeah.. :/
<sm> I have a lot of list traffic to catch up on.. do you happen to know the status of FrontPage ?
<sm> was the right one ever recovered ?
<mdke> yes
<mdke> it was rewritten
<mdke> by that nice lady at canonical
<mdke> i guess its not recoverable from recycle_bin because there is already an older one there?
<sm> it looks good
<sm> when a page is deleted more than once, multiple copies pile up in the recycle_bin.. FrontPage, copy_of_FrontPage, copy_of_FrontPage_2...
<mdke> hmm
<sm> I'm guessing all versions are in there
<mdke> does the lady at canonical know that?
<sm> I do not know
<sm> the current looks about the best I've seen it, organization wise
<mdke> still need to sort UserDocumentation
<mdke> but I didn't have any feedback on the reorganisation thread so I may try and bump it again
<sm> think I'll remove rename/reparent permission from FrontPage as well as delete
<mdke> oh cool good idea
<sm> sooner or later someone would rename, more time wasted
<mdke> whenever pages are lost its normally because they get renamed
<mdke> and turned into a userpage ;)
<sm> 3000 edits in the last two weeks
<mdke> yeah i had some trouble downloading too
<mdke> gmail pop access was aching and groaning
* sm is a pretty happy fastmail imap user
<mdke> i don't know much about email
<mdke> i need to investigate further
<sm> you must be a moin markup expert by now, eh
<sm> did you know it when you started ?
<mdke> no but its quite simple right?
<sm> I guess so
<sm> what's your opinion of it now ?
<mdke> actually i don't do anything complicated
<sm> I've never really learned it
<mdke> its fine, pretty simple
<mdke> have there been any zwiki upgrades in our wiki?
<sm> I got one done a couple of weeks ago
<sm> http://zwiki.org/FrontPage/zwiki_version 
<mdke> moin macros aren't supported are they?
<sm> no
<sm> http://zwiki.org/ReleaseNotes
<mdke> is that because you don't support it upstream or it just isn't activated?
<sm> I think we were running 0.34
<mdke> *cliks*
<sm> it isn't supported in the code
<sm> ie work needed
<mdke> ok
<mdke> 0.39 here
<mdke> have you seen the UbuntuDownUnder breakaway wiki?
<sm> not yet
<mdke> i'm not entirely sure what the reason behind trying a new one out is, or what the intention is for the future
<sm> is anyone ever.. :)
<claude> maybe zwiki too sluggish
<sm> is the new plone skin any better speedwise  ?
<mdke> i thought it was the same
<mdke> oh the new skin
<mdke> a bit better
<mdke> but its not that slow, and the effort involved in migrating might not justify it
<mdke> i think the site is just quite slow in general
<claude> zope based :(
<claude> good app server when apache in front
<claude> but slow when many edits
<sm> claude, have you tried alt = ?
<claude> alt = ?? do you mean other app servers ?
<mdke> try pressing alt and =
<sm> it's a faster skin
<claude> oh...
<sm> to change back, you'll need to use http://www.ubuntulinux.org/personalize_form
<claude> k
<sm> and you'll need to reload pages if you don't see it, etc.. described at WikiTips
<mdke> sm, the other day I was having issues with zopeedit, same as before
<mdke> seems like its not with all pages tho
<sm> I'd like to see it
<mdke> i'll install it on this box and give it a try, see if I can find some pages that don't work
<mdke> actually no i'll brb on my lappy
<sm> the site does seem very sluggish right now
<sm> well.. intermittently
<mdke> yeah i think its a hangover from the ISP issues they've had after release
<sm> seems ok now
<sm> after a zope restart, things are slow until you visit a few pages and warm up the cache
<mdke> still slow here
<mdke> sm, ok getting that error with zopeedit now
<mdke> currently editing http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/LocaleConf
<sm> let me know when to try.. it's locked right now
<mdke> i'll exit
<sm> also see if you edit again, do you still get it
<mdke> yes
<mdke> just tried now
<sm> what's the error.. popup when you try to save ?
<mdke> http://mdke.mine.nu/images/zopeedit.png
<mdke> yeah
* sm tries to ext-edit 
<sm> site is sloow
<sm> my edit worked fine
<sm> can you try another
<mdke> same page?
<sm> yup
<sm> I added test at the bottom.. try removing that
<mdke> still fails
<mdke> lemme reload the page and try
<mdke> sm, now when I open it, i don't see your "test" in gedit, even though i see it on the page
<sm> bah, caching trouble
<sm> what if you shift reload in your browser.. then ext edit again ?
<mdke> yeah that's what I did
<mdke> fine on the page, not on the editor
<sm> what if you remove the temporary extedit file(s) in /tm
<sm>  /tmp
<mdke> matt@kallisto:~$ rm /tmp/tmp
<mdke> tmp0cEyPx-www.ubuntulinux.org,wiki,LocaleConf.html
<mdke> tmp_aq0_i-www.ubuntulinux.org,wiki,LocaleConf.html~
<mdke> tmpjsDfMS-www.ubuntulinux.org,wiki,LocaleConf.html~
<mdke> tmpsQJSiR-www.ubuntulinux.org,wiki,LocaleConf.html~
<mdke> deleting and trying again
<mdke> lol still don't see your "test" at the bottom
<sm> I don't know why your external edit script doesn't see the latest and mine does
<sm> any stray ext edit processes running ?
<sm> quit & restart browser ?
<mdke> that's done it
<sm> firefox not downloading a fresh copy for extedit ?
<mdke> weird
<mdke> do you use firefox?
<sm> I've seen that in other circumstances, rarely
<sm> yes
<mdke> removing the edit has worked
<mdke> is it possible that taking a certain amount of time might cause it not to work, or maybe making a certain amount of changes?
<sm> I don't think so
<mdke> lemme try again
<sm> I think we must chalk that up to the caching setup
<mdke> i just changed it to moin and it worked
<mdke> i reckon its the time taken
<sm> I think you just got a stale copy from one of the alternate ubuntu zeo clients, squid hosts or whatever it is
<sm> and firefox lost track of which was latest
<mdke> but that's the first time I tried to edit that page
<sm> doesn't matter
<mdke> ok now it seems like all the edits are working
<sm> you can visit a page for the first time and get a slightly stale copy
<sm> it's just the way they have things set up there
<mdke> can we do anything about it?
<mdke> is it worth filing a bug?
<sm> I think it's in bugzilla
<sm> getting anything done about it in the near future seems unlikely
<mdke> i have to say I'm not impressed at all with the speed of dealing with website bugs in bugzilla
<sm> I would try to get the single-consistent-url issue resolved first
<mdke> the bugs don't get assigned and no one responds
<sm> yup
<sm> I think there's noone assigned to such work
<sm> and they're hard
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> shame
<mdke> because now our website looks good, it is a shame that it is unprofessional
<sm> also the people with access and the people with know-how are different
<sm> yes, it is a shame
<mdke> meh
<mdke> is the technical board a reasonable place to raise such an issue do you think?
<sm> I think as long as there's doubt about the continued use of plone, noone's going to spend further time on that particular issue
<sm> I can imagine some would rather dump plone than spend further time on it :)
<mdke> meh
<mdke> ever thought about applying for a fulltime job with canonical?
<sm> it crossed my mind
<sm> not sure I'd be much help with that caching issue though
<sm> I think if they do less caching, the site will not scale so well
<mdke> i bet they need good webmasters tho
<sm> afaik canonical has good plone/zope/squid people.. one anyway.. but they're being used for other things
<mdke> oh right
<mdke> so its just a question of manpower
<sm> priorites, I guess
<sm> I imagine it's hard to take people off hoary to optimise the website
<mdke> well surely they keep OS developers and webmasters separate?
<mdke> they are working a lot on launchpad right now i think
<sm> what's launchpad ?
<mdke> http://launchpad.ubuntu.com
<mdke> it has a new bug reporting interface, and "Rosetta", a translating interface, and some other stuff
<mdke> i wonder where to parent: http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/QuantumLogicCorporation
<sm> I see
<claude> cya
<sm> see you
<sm> mdke: doesn't seem ubuntu-specific.. probably would fit under a consultants/support page
<mdke> its not ubuntu specific but its being built by ubuntu peeps i believe
<sm> only an hour old though
<mdke> oh sorry i thought you were talking about launchpad
#ubuntu-doc 2005-04-23
<froud> good night all
<mdke> night froud :)
<mdke> 189 wiki edits in the last 24 hours or so
<sm> see you
<mdke> bye sm
<mdke> see ya again soon
* sm waves
<jsgotangco> halooooo
<jsgotangco> hi Burgundavia
<Burgundavia> salut
<jsgotangco> hmmm im getting confused at kvio's interface..it seems to want to be visio but it cant
<Burgundavia> <troll> KDE is just trying to imitate Windows anyway </troll>
<jsgotangco> bah at least it works most of the time
<froud> African Greetings
<jsgotangco> hi froud!
<Burgundavia> salut
<jsgotangco> hi dave!
<dave> hiya
<Burgundavia> salut daven 
<daven> morning
<Burgundavia> evening still here
<Burgundavia> for another 33 minutes
<daven> hehe
<daven> 07:30 here :)
<daven> jsgotangco: i'll have to change it so it doesn't try to log me on as dave - dave is *always* gonna be someone else's ;-)
<Burgundavia> that is why you choose something like mine
<Burgundavia> I have never had a nick conflict and never will
<daven> i lack the imagination :)
<Burgundavia> you only need to be imaginative once
<jsgotangco> ahh its only 2:30pm here
<daven> i quite like a short nick - trying to type jsgotangco correctly at this time of the morning...
<daven> ah - although i *have* just discovered tab-completion ;)
<jsgotangco> haha
<jsgotangco> daven, yes that is corrrecgt
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, 
<jsgotangco> Kinnison, 
<jsgotangco> hehhe
<Burgundavia> halo?
<jsgotangco> mvirkkil, 
<jsgotangco> no just tabbing crazy
<Burgundavia> there is an annoying bug with my notifier
<Burgundavia> it only pops up if i am on another tab
<Burgundavia> even if I am at another workspace
<jsgotangco> i am reading the svn book
<daven> burgundavia :)
<jsgotangco> froud: is it advisable to do stuff in trunk at the moment? I want to try something out in translating some stuff
<froud> You can work on your working copy and test stuff
<froud> if you commit I will merge it into branch. If we need it in branch, that is.
<froud> remember while testing things you can always revert
<jsgotangco> yah
<jsgotangco> ok gotcha
<jsgotangco> but there hasnt been much activity in trunk but i understand that
<froud> not much, but people are welcome to work in trunk
<mdke> morning all
<froud_> morn
<mdke> /afternoon/evening
<jsgotangco> hi
<mdke> so are we getting cracking on the guides yet?
<jsgotangco> well i am experimenting stuff on trunk at the moment
<mdke> what sort of stuff?
<jsgotangco> oh just some il8n stuff that i might pass to some team
<mdke> oh right
<mdke> you mean i18n ;)
<jsgotangco> i was having a word war with someone from debian-tl on il8n stuff he thinks im diverting and doing something that is going against debian tl
<jsgotangco> what did i say?
<jsgotangco> i said il8n
<mdke> with a 1 (one) not an l (ell)
<mdke> jsgotangco, what have you been diverting?
<jsgotangco> none
<jsgotangco> its just trash talking bleah
<mdke> lol
<mdke> tl war
<mdke> so when do we get to work on the guides?
<mdke> froud_?
<froud_> mmmmHmmmm
<froud_> mdke: feel free to work in trunk. No stopping you
<jsgotangco> adminguide.xml looks yummy
<froud_> dig in 
* froud_ hands mdke spoon, fork and knife
<mdke> froud_, right. presumably it is desirable to use the more stable wiki pages?
<jsgotangco> im kind excited on what i saw in branch
<froud_> then work in branch
<jsgotangco> but branch always changes heh
<mdke> what is the difference?
<mdke> i thought the branch was just for you to write scripts and stuff
<jsgotangco> mdke, branch has some new stuff that will be merged into trunk
<froud_> the dir structure is changed
<mdke> ok so they will be merged? changes won't be lost?
<froud_> no changes will be lost inside document content
<jsgotangco> hmmm it shouldnt
<froud_> I must go back to work
<jsgotangco> but i would probably start working on branch when breezy truly opens
<jsgotangco> but no stopping us from improving trunk
<mdke> well i'm a bit more confident working on content than I am on structure of xml documents, so I am keen that the documents I work on have already agreed structures
<mdke> and also I'd like to know whether to use the more stable wiki documents for content
<jsgotangco> good idea
<jsgotangco> we can always revert anyway
<mdke> did we get our accounts yet?
<jsgotangco> i have not received anything yet
<mdke> the request probably was drowned in a million emails
<jsgotangco> hmmm i'm thinking of doing a blog
<mdke> anyway we can work without accounts
<mdke> right i have to go to school
<mdke> see ya
<jsgotangco> ok see ya
<jsgotangco> oh mr. sun, sun mr. golden sun, please shine down on me
<Kinnison> Morning all
<jsgotangco> Kinnison, hi
<Burgundavia> salut Kinnison 
<Kinnison> salut
<jsgotangco> arrgghh why cant gnome and kde apps get together
<Kinnison> years of rivalry
<Burgundavia> they are slowly
<Burgundavia> see the cool things with pdf
<Burgundavia> and the talks regarding gconf and kconfig
<jsgotangco> yesshh is kinda cool knowing that is happening
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, would it be advisable if i just use <quote> instead of &quot
<Burgundavia> for what?
<jsgotangco> for "" sign
<jsgotangco> i am experimenting stuff on trunk
<Burgundavia> no idea, ask froud
<mvirkkil> jsgotangco: You mentioned me?
<Burgundavia> mvirkkil, he was goofing around
<mvirkkil> ok.
<jsgotangco> sorry bout that
<mvirkkil> jsgotangco: No problem.
<jsgotangco> nice a usb disco dance floor in /.
<jsgotangco> ok see you guys later
<froud-work> whew, long day
<brenx> Hi
<froud-work> hi
<brenx> first time here
<brenx> and my english is not good
<froud-work> welcome
<brenx> but I am ubuntu user
<brenx> :D
<froud-work> cool, how long have you been using it
<brenx> can I ask some questions
<froud-work> sure
<brenx> mot really long
<froud-work> ok
<brenx> but it is my only system on computer now
<froud-work> where are you from?
<brenx> Slovenia
<froud-work> Ah, OK
<froud-work> so what questions do you have?
<brenx> do U know where is that
<brenx> lots
<froud-work> Yes
<brenx> :D
<brenx> but just cheking how does this work
<brenx> don't have a lot of time now
<brenx> must go back to work
<froud-work> how does what work
<froud-work> irc
<froud-work> or ubuntu?
<brenx> x-chat ubuntu comunity, ...
<froud-work> Ah ok, I see. No problem. We do documentation etc. when we feel like it. So this is the Docteam Channel
<brenx> sorry 4 bugging
<brenx> must go now
<brenx> bye
<froud-work> not bugging anyone you are welcome, c ya
<brenx> c ya
* froud-work thinks to himself, "Strange."
<mdke> hi all
<froud> hi
<mdke> hows doing?
<froud> good
<jjesse> good
<Burgundavia> hey sm
<jjesse> slow day today in the channel?
<froud> shhh, we're busy
<sm> hey all
<jjesse> grin
<sm> mdke: yes, just rename that page with the problematic <-> 
<mdke> how?
<sm> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/WebBrowsingSlowIVP6IVP4 -> rename form at bottom, or edit form
<mdke> oh i c
<mdke> doh
<sm> :)
<mdke> will do
<sm> and do paste that bug report.. thanks
<mdke> have done
<mdke> #1083
<Burgundavia> he leader to particpape
<Burgundavia> hmm
<Burgundavia> anyboyd else see just raw unicode?
<jjesse> on wht?
<jjesse> on what?
<Burgundavia> he leader to particpape
<Burgundavia> that
<jjesse> i see he leader to particp a pe
<jjesse> he leader to particp
<Burgundavia> hmm
<jjesse> and then characters
<Burgundavia> wierd
<mdke> i see some crazy stuff
<Burgundavia> |00| something like that, both with four chars?
<jjesse> so do you know you've in the linux world for a while when you start typing thier commands on a windows box
<mdke> Burgundavia, yeah
<jjesse> what do you mean ls is not a validcommand
<Burgundavia> that is raw unicode
<Burgundavia> your font has no way of displaying it
<mdke> specifically, 00,08
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> i haven't got many fonts installed tho
<Burgundavia> that seems to be bksp
<Burgundavia> oe huats: your IRC client is really broken
<Burgundavia> joe huats: we're seeing all your backspaces
<Burgundavia> that is from #dashboard on gimpnet
<Burgundavia> where I pasted it from
<mdke> Burgundavia, are you making the technical board meet later?
<Burgundavia> today, technical board?
<mdke> yus
<Burgundavia> err forgot about it
<mdke> in 3 hours circa
<Burgundavia> hmm
<Burgundavia> maybe I will grap some sleep and them come to the meeting
<mdke> heh
<jjesse> brb
<mdke> body clock not following the crowd eh?
<Burgundavia> whatever
<mdke> :)
<mdke> ok maybe see you later Burgundavia
<froud> group question
<froud> the moving of files in now over in branch
<froud> the make system is not finished
<froud> but we dont need the make system to write
<froud> anyone think it a good idea for me to merge the branch back to trunk?
<Burgundavia> do we need the make system until say Aug?
<Burgundavia> my argument would be merge so we can start writing
<froud> Yeah that is what I am thinking. People seem scared to write in trunk while I am in branch :-) dunno why, guess not clearly understanding merging and branching
<mdke> for what its worth, i agree
<froud> mdke: cool
<mdke> although that's not the reason we're not writing in trunk
<froud> doing a dry run now
<mdke> cool
<mdke> Burgundavia, get any sleep?
<Burgundavia> nope
<mdke> :/
<froud> anyone else agree that I merge now
<claude> froud: in the restructure branch, you didn't provide language folders for images
<froud> I was wondering about that. do you think we should
<claude> yes, for localized screenshots
<froud> you sure we gonna do i18n screenshots
<claude> of course :)
<froud> whew that will be hectic
<froud> who is gonna do them
<froud> for each language
<claude> translators...
<claude> but we should find a system to default to english when there isn't localized ones
<claude> i'm sure you'll find a way to script that ;-)
<froud> I have the way, if you have the people to do the captures
<claude> sure...
* claude looks in the air
<froud> well I will do it and default to C unless nn
<mdke> surely the capturing won't be hard
<mdke> we can do it ourselves ;)
<froud> I see mdke and claude are volunteering themselves
<claude> especially mdke
<mdke> i'm happy to do some bulk screenshots
<mdke> :)
* froud looks at mdke who points to claude, who points to mdke 
<claude> i'm confident with French team
<claude> we are the champions
<claude> :)
<sm> go FRANCE :)
<sm> or whichever french-speaking country you are in 
<claude> Switzerland
<claude> Hop Schwiiz
<mdke> whos gonna stick up for us at the meeting?
* sm mutters "go french".. "yay french team"
<mdke> bah
<mdke> go england
<froud> This svn server is gonna pop
<sm> ENNNGLAND
<mdke> heh
<sm> see that's not fair either
<froud> howoo cum to soud afrika
<claude> do i have to do something special to join ubuntu-meeting ?
<mdke> /j #ubuntu-meeting
<mdke> there you go :)
<claude> thx
<claude> still not very familiar with xchat
<mvirkkil> Is this BOF about restricted formats? http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDownUnder/BOFs/UbuntuDevelopment/MultiMedia
<mdke> BOF?
<mvirkkil> mdke: General brainstorming (Birds Of a Feather [flock together] ) meaning people with similar interests coming together. 
<mdke> not sure about that page
<mdke> if you want information on how to use restricted formats in Ubuntu there is a page on the main wiki
<mvirkkil> mdke: No, I know all that. 
<mdke> so what is it you would like to do?
<mvirkkil> mdke: I'd like to add some suggestions about how to go about integrating restricted formats in to ubuntu, if that BOF is about it.
<mdke> possibly: its for the meeting in Australia
<mvirkkil> mdke: I've been working on the gnome-app-install stuff.
<mvirkkil> mdke: Yeah, I know.
<mvirkkil> mdke: But if it's about generally improving the legal multimedia stuff I really don't want to spam them about restricted formats.
<mdke> not sure
<mvirkkil> Yes, I figured as much ;-)
<mdke> try #ubuntu-devel
<mvirkkil> Well, another question: Why is there a separate wiki for UDU?
<mdke> mvirkkil, its being tested
<mdke> not sure why
#ubuntu-doc 2005-04-24
<EricNeon> morning all~
<jsgotangco> helllo
<Eric|UbuntuDoc> hi
<Eric|UbuntuDoc> I'm translating Hoary StarterGuide into Chinese
<jsgotangco> wooo
<jsgotangco> through Rosetta?
<Eric|UbuntuDoc> Rosetta
<Eric|UbuntuDoc> noI do it in ours Wiki
<Eric|UbuntuDoc> http://wiki.ubuntu.org.cn/index.php/Hoarystarterguide/document_view
<jsgotangco> baahh i forgot the admin of my router
<jsgotangco> bbl
<froud> African Greetings
<Burgundavia> salut
<Burgundavia> I have a question about repos that you may be able to answer
<froud> sure
<froud> just running the merge into my WC
<Burgundavia> http://people.debian.org/~isaac/wesnoth/
<Burgundavia> how would I add this to my sources.list ?
<froud> you can do it via synaptic or at the prompt
<froud> etc/apt/sources.list
<froud> I think that's the encantation
<Burgundavia> I realize taht
<Burgundavia> but the issue is taht packages.gz is note in a dir
<Burgundavia> ie ~/dists/hoary/main
<froud> Hmm, not sure but you just leave out the main
<Burgundavia> I tried only 'deb blah'
<Burgundavia> but it didn't work
<Burgundavia> and then I tried 'deb blah .' and that didn't work
<froud> not sure what about . (dot)
<Burgundavia> hmm
<froud> well did that work
<jsgotangco> hallooooeee
<Burgundavia> salut
<jsgotangco> ohh that's nice i think someone has messed up some wiki pages again *groan*
<jsgotangco> im beginning to truly hate our wiki
<Burgundavia> I already decided I hated our wiki
<Burgundavia> and have left well enough alone
<jsgotangco> yes we hateses it even more now
<jsgotangco> is there hope?
<Burgundavia> there is always hope my son
<Burgundavia> went to my lug today
<Burgundavia> listened to one of the terrasoft guys talk
<Burgundavia> terrasoft = yellow dog
<jsgotangco> yah so how was it
<Burgundavia> pretty good 
<Burgundavia> discussed how ppc port got started
<Burgundavia> where the future is
<jsgotangco> do they support genesi pegasos boards?
<Burgundavia> they say that genesi pegasos boards are borked
<Burgundavia> hmm beagled goes boom
<jsgotangco> oohhhh
<Burgundavia> 3 times, at the same point, so I filed a bug
<jsgotangco> you using beagle now?
<Burgundavia> yep
<Burgundavia> is very nice
<Burgundavia> and gtk
<jsgotangco> <troll>how fast is it compared to KDE apps></troll>
<jsgotangco> hmmm lots of commits
<Burgundavia> hmm, still annoyed
<jsgotangco> oh what?
<jsgotangco> froud: are you starting to merge into trunk? i've svn up and seeing new folders
<froud> jsgotangco: yes, I am merging. Just trying to check things
<froud> [announce]  the restructur branch has been successfully merged back to trunk. everyone can svn up
<jsgotangco> hmm thats a lot of stuff merged
<froud> jsgotangco: yes that is why it was in a branch
<froud> please do test things, let me know if you think there should be changes
<jsgotangco> so there is no branch anymore?
<froud> the branch will be depreciated
<jsgotangco> did you merge docs for ubuntu and kubuntu?
<froud> take a look at the trunk, you will see generic, gnome and kde
<jsgotangco> yes my guess is that the kde stuff is actually for kubuntu itself
<froud> yes rather than refer to ubuntu or kubuntu I decided to go by the upstream
<froud> this way if somebody wants another desktop distro based on ubuntu we can add it by its name
<jsgotangco> but that means kubuntu will have a very different quick guide as well as other docs but ubuntu and kubuntu will share the other stuff like release notes and about ubuntu, etc.
<froud> no the only shared stuff is in generic
<jsgotangco> ahh
<froud> this way kubuntu has its own docs and so does gnome
<froud> but you still need the whole of trunk to validate
<jsgotangco> the kde stuff needs a lot of work i noticed
<froud> jsgotangco: its the first time we have kde, so it is to be expected. More fun for you and nay other KDE users :-)
<jsgotangco> this is fun? lol..hehehehe
<jsgotangco> froud: how does trunk fit in with Rosetta now running?
<froud> it has support for the languages
<jsgotangco> trunk just focuses on core documentation now?
<froud> Huh? dont understand
<jsgotangco> translated stuff from Rosetta get merged in trunk soon?
<froud> we focus on anything that is C
<froud> translations are already trunk
<jsgotangco> i mean how about future stuff that will be done in Rosetta
<froud> yes we give pot they give -nn.po
<froud> we make -nn.xml
<jsgotangco> -nn.po is done by Rosetta right
<froud> yes the translators take our pot and make a po file in which they write the translation
<froud> you already know all this
<jsgotangco> yes im just clarifying how rosetta affects trunk
<froud> it does not, we just make language support easier for final packaging
<froud> the i18n process remains the same
<froud> ooops kde inst should be kubuntuadminguide
<froud> anyone want something to do, they can fix the fileref values in gnome and kde
<jsgotangco> no habla espanol
<jsgotangco> but i will check what that means
<froud> kde/inst now renamed
<froud> jsgotangco: where you have imagedata in the documents you have fileref attributes
<froud> due to the change in directories the value for each fileref is now wrong and should be corrected
<jsgotangco> <imagedata fileref="figures/update.png" format="PNG"/>
<froud> exactly
<jsgotangco> ok so that means revalidate these files as well
<froud> the files are all valid, or should be
<froud> I did a validation
<froud> but validation will not know if images have moved
<jsgotangco> ok does konqueror render xml like what yelp does?
<froud> no, but you can still have yelp installed
* froud updates https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocteamProjects
<jsgotangco> froud, changing the filerefs should be easy, but what should the correct values be?
<froud> which book are you on
<jsgotangco> they dont open in yelp at all
<jsgotangco> im looking at kynaptic.xml
<froud> kynaptic is a special case :-)
<jsgotangco> ok i go to something much more basic
<froud> figures/ are relative to the doc
<froud> since kynaptic may move upstream one day
<jsgotangco> ok ill just try messing up with gnome docs first to see how its done
<froud> logically you will need ../../images/C/foo.png
<jsgotangco> are you changing stuff agian?
<jsgotangco> froud, do you have any idea why svn up is taking so long
<froud> just changed one thing in kde
<froud> no idea why it takes so long
<froud> seems fine my side
<jsgotangco> ok
<Eric|UbuntuDoc> the Chinese Hoary StarterGuide had nearly achieve
<Burgundavia> hmm?
<froud> Eric|UbuntuDoc: achieve .... what we don't understand
<jgotangco> he means its almost done
<Eric|UbuntuDoc> o ,~hah 
<Eric|UbuntuDoc> yes ,done
<Eric|UbuntuDoc> http://wiki.ubuntu.org.cn/index.php/Hoarystarterguide/document_view
<jsgotangco> wow thats wikimedia
<Eric|UbuntuDoc> yes
<froud> Eric|UbuntuDoc: that's nice but I really wish people would translate the one in svn :-)
<jsgotangco> yeah having cn/zh in trunk would be great
<froud> problem is it is not easy to port all these wiki formats to docbook
<froud> and now with new release schedule all these wiki books will not be part of our i18n process
<Eric|UbuntuDoc> We will do it
<Eric|UbuntuDoc> but now ,we have not server for svn
<jsgotangco> froud, i think the wiki can just stay as it is, but it should have a good flow of info that complements our docbook work
<jsgotangco> Eric|UbuntuDoc, just use OUR svn
<froud> Eric|UbuntuDoc: yes we have svn for this
<froud> we ported english version to docbook
<froud> and put it in svn see https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocteamProjects
<jsgotangco> even Rosetta has some Chinese translations already
<froud> jsgotangco: of what?
<Eric|UbuntuDoc> oh?  cool!
<jsgotangco> well in Hoary there are some completed already
<jsgotangco> in Rosetta that is
<froud> jsgotangco: you dont make much sense, translations of what?
<Eric|UbuntuDoc> I spend tow days to translete document
<jsgotangco> froud, of applications
<froud> if they are translations of our docs, stuff in svn, then we need the po files back
<froud> if it is not our doc stuff then, personally, I am not insterested
<froud> Eric|UbuntuDoc: yes it takes a great effort for translation
<froud> Eric|UbuntuDoc: that is why I want to reduce the effort
<Eric|UbuntuDoc> I add-on a line as "Copyleft (C) 2005 Ubuntu.org.cn" in Chinese Document  :)
<jsgotangco> froud, i refer to Hoary apps in https://launchpad.ubuntu.com/distros/ubuntu/hoary/+translations which Eric|UbuntuDoc might be intrested in
<froud> we use POT/PO files for translations under Rosetta
<froud> jsgotangco: ok
<jsgotangco> froud, do our docs get into Rosetta?
<Burgundavia> therea are some possible issues with the size of strings we have
<froud> jsgotangco: yes, currently via way of our package
<jsgotangco> ok great
<froud> Burgundavia: what issues?
<Burgundavia> I had heard that rosetta was borking on large strings. I could be wrong
<froud> Burgundavia: to be expected, it is still a young app
<jsgotangco> at least its running now
<jsgotangco> hmm rosetta's PO file export ain't bad either
<EricNeon> jsgotangco, you can find a Chinese translater named Carlos Liu in https://launchpad.ubuntu.com/distros/ubuntu/hoary/+translations 
<EricNeon> he is just a member of Ubuntu-zh team
<jsgotangco> yes
<jsgotangco> i see
<jsgotangco> hmm this is neat..i made a new wc from cli and esvn recognized the new wc when i opened it
<jsgotangco> very handy indeed
<EricNeon> :-)
<jsgotangco> _froud, what is i18n.sh for
<_froud> It manages the i18n things
<_froud> should work, but needs testing
<_froud> not all the scripts work as yet
<_froud> that one should
<jsgotangco> hmm fileref from gnome also needs work
<froud> what are you talking about
<froud> the images
<jsgotangco> yes
<froud> ya, but we said so already :-)
<jsgotangco> ok forgive me for repeating unnecessarily
<jsgotangco> ok ilm having dinner first
<jsgotangco> bye bye
<froud> c ya
<EricNeon> bye
<EricNeon> I have to go home
<froud> EricNeon: OK c ya later
<EricNeon> maybe c ya tomorrow
<froud> cool
<jsgotangco> tadaa
<froud> jsgotangco: are you then doing the fileref fixes?
<jsgotangco> i've already done some
<jsgotangco> ill just commit them later
<froud> ok do it on a per doc basis
<froud> thx
<jsgotangco> yeah im doing it per doc
<jsgotangco> bbl
<mvirkkil> WOW! http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/WhyYouShouldntUseUbuntu
<mvirkkil> And a link to that on the front page
<mvirkkil> It has been there for 10 minutes
<mvirkkil> Someone should fix that asap and block the senders IP
<mdke> omg that is pretty harsh
<froud> http://mpt.net.nz/archive/2005/04/11/ubuntu
<mdke> hi froud 
<mdke> by a canonical employee ;)
<jeffsch> greetings
<jeffsch> I read the matt thomas blog. he makes some good points on the help system.
<froud> jjesse: drop the url
<froud> mdke: hi
<mdke> froud, its that one you posted
<jeffsch> froud: do you mean jeffsch?
<froud> oh right I did not read who wrote it
<froud> I think that the critique is good
<froud> good to get critique
<froud> gives you a chance to reflect and make improvements
<mdke> yeah
<jeffsch> yes. it's always good to hear from someone outside the docteam
<mdke> but a lot of the faults are due to lack of time
<mdke> especially the lack of a userguide
<jeffsch> we are still a small team
<mdke> hopefully we can improve by next release
<froud> one of the great things about open source is that everything is open, even critique
<froud> this is a great advantage
<froud> I would have like http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/WhyYouShouldntUseUbuntu to stay up fo rthis reason
<mdke> yeah cool that canonical let him post that
<mdke> froud, no that violates the code of conduct imo
<froud> well not really
<froud> it gives breadth of perspective
<jeffsch> i agree with froud. A short reasoned reply from shuttleworth below the screed would be nice
<froud> a chance to see what another person thinks
<mdke> it is not considerate of others and was unnecessarily aggressive
<mdke> i am all for freedom of expression, its just how it was put that I found unnecessary
<froud> but then that is open source
<froud> anyway I am back to work
<mdke> <quote>
<mdke> Man Pages. Teeheeheehee.
<mdke> </quote>
<mdke> he has a point.
<jeffsch> yes. some would think we need woman pages, just to be fair.
<jeffsch> man pages are old stuff. they should be converted, yes?
<mdke> well that sort of title is certainly confusing
<froud> jeffsch: no they should not, what if you dont have a desktop? How you gonna read GNU command help
<jeffsch> hmm... converted, but not deleted then?
<mdke> froud, the point is that there is a "man pages" in the front page of our help dialogue, people who don't know what they are will be confused, and let's face it, those people are the only ones who don't use man pages in a terminal
<mdke> at least that's how i interpret his point
<froud> well there is an education to using Linux
<froud> that's why we need user manual
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> froud, i wanted to ask you, is the structure of all the manuals sorted? all that is missing is the content?
<froud> mdke: the merge ws done, so structure is set
<froud> we may have small changes, but nothing like waht we had in branch
<mdke> froud, i mean the structure of each document itself
<froud> you mean outlines
<froud> outlines are free to change
<mdke> right
<mdke> outlines yeah
<mdke> froud, but the bare bones are there?
<froud> in fact I say that everything is now open for eval
<froud> some yes and some no
<mdke> right
<mdke> will we have meetings to sort out the outlines?
<froud> the way I would tackle it is to pick a book that I intend working on
<froud> think and think
<froud> then propose on the list
<froud> hack it in the list and then impliment the outline
<mdke> cool
<mdke> froud, also the other thing i wanted to ask is, its cool to use wiki pages for content, i'm thinking of the more stable ones
<froud> once we have an outline agreed we should try stick to it as much possible
<froud> wiki is one type of work svn is another
<froud> we often take info from wiki to docbook
<froud> I dont pay much attention to wiki
<mdke> so its a good idea to take content
<mdke> ?
<froud> yeah why not, so long as you credit
<mdke> there are some very good docs, written by good people imo
<mdke> froud, difficult to tell who wrote the material
<froud> sure
<froud> also difficult to keep wiki and docbook in sync
<froud> linke with Faq guide
<mdke> froud, i was thinking that it would be one way, not synching: wiki -> us, improvement on our side, release
<froud> that is what we have to do
<froud> but we have to agree outlines and then go for it
<froud> outline can change +-10% before final release
<mdke> right
<mdke> well i'm happier if they are already there ;) but I am also happy to think about them
<froud> during work we have 1, 2, 3 draft
<froud> mark nodes with status attribute
<froud> authorblurb used for comments
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> i saw those
<froud> different nodes can be at different status
<mdke> i looked at esvn yesterday
<froud> when all status = complete
<froud> cool and what do you think
<mdke> :|
<mdke> not really for me
<froud> imagine trying to do svn restructure without it
<mdke> yeah probly
<froud> well ther eyou go
<froud> hey back to work
<mdke> right ok see ya soon
<froud> jeffsch: nice one on the images dude. thanks
<jeffsch> np
<froud> the docs will validated but that does not pickup the images problem caused by restructure :-)
<jeffsch> froud: concerning the locations for the non english languages: do we keep C, or should we change to fr, ca, etc?
<jeffsch> changing to fr, ca, etc will highlight that those screen shots are needed.
<froud> jeffsch: we dont have the screenshots.
* froud looks at those who volunteered yesterday
<mdke> what?
<froud> keep them as C just incase
<mdke> you want them now?
<froud> well we're waiting :-)
<mdke> i'll start doing them in the next few days then
<mdke> just everything that is already there right?
<froud> Oh yes no more no less
<mdke> i was thinking that we'd be waiting until breezy was up and running
<froud> same file names
<mdke> especially since the theme will be changing
* mdke points to mdz discussion
<froud> the theme change does not impact on the doc value
<froud> if we have time we can do it
<froud> but doing it now could save us time
<jeffsch> it's good to have *something* there, just so we know what the thing looks like
<froud> though I am not convinced we must have i18n screencapts
<froud> but if people want then we will give
* claude insists
<froud> jeffsch: until we have the images leave i18n
<froud> oh yes, and jeffsch , claude was the other volunteer
<froud> :-)
<mdke> yeah ok
<froud> mdke: if you do it keep the same file names
<mdke> the other thing, is there no plan to make the things smaller?
<mdke> froud, will do
<jjesse> quick question: are we supposed to be working on what is in trunks or in the restructure section?
<mdke> froud, they go in the same directory, with -xx ending on names, or in a different directory with same names
<froud> jeffsch: restructure merged to trunk today
<froud> mdke: no
<mdke> froud, *points at jjesse*
<froud> exactly the same file name
<jjesse> so do my work in trunks?
<mdke> froud, in the same final?
<mdke> s/final/folder
<mdke> images/
<froud> no in the xx folder
<jeffsch> froud: yes. I updated trunk, right? or did esvn play with my mind?
<mdke> oh
<froud> not the C folder
<froud> jjesse: work in trunk
<mdke> froud, ok didn't see those yet
<jjesse> ok
<mdke> froud, will do
<froud> mdke: look at trunk and you will see the new structure
<mdke> yep kewl
<froud> i18n docs each have their own folder
<jjesse> ok cool ive been using kubuntu so i'll start looking at the kde stuff
<froud> kde stuff has next to noting
<froud> jjesse: we can hash outlines
<froud> in the list
<froud> I am just capturing the installation screens
<froud> we can use them for kde admin and user guide
<jjesse> ok
<froud> we may even be able to use them for gubuntu
<mdke> /kick froud 
<froud> well I am off to bed. Must sleep, feel nackered, my eyes are starting to bleed
<jeffsch> cya
<mdke> night
<froud> jjesse: I think only the first capt of the install will need changing between kubuntu and gubuntu
<froud> ok chow
<jjesse> ok
<mdke> afk too
* jeffsch is away: I'll be back
<mkde> yo
<mkde> damn
<mkde> did froud say the images were to be put in gnome_or_kde/images/2lettercountrycode/ ?
* mkde goes to logs
<jjesse> must have been before i was signed on
<jjesse> don't remember
<froud-away> if you r working on quickguide fr doc then put them in the quickguide/fr/ folder NOT quickguide/C/ :-)
<mdke> so I make the relevant directories myself?
<mdke> like images/fr
<froud-away> yes there are no fr images so you need a directory
<mdke> ok cool
<froud-away> in images/
<mdke> didn't want to create any directories until i was sure ;)
<mdke> froud-away, thanks, and gd night
<froud-away> busy installing linux under linux so had sometime
<claude> my menus are not very standard
<claude> do you know the new way to edit them ?
<froud-away> they are defined in /etc/xdg/menus/
<froud-away> you can edit there or via the menu editor on the desktop
<claude> menu editor ?
<froud-away> you in gnome or kde?
<claude> seems /etc/xdg/menus doesn't relate to my real menus
<claude> gnome of course !!
<claude> ;-P
<froud-away> ah that's your problem
<froud-away> come to kde and you have a nice easy menu editor
<froud-away> dunno how to do it in gnome?
<claude> something to do with /usr/share/applications
<mkde> ooh got my svn account i think
<mkde> haven't a clue what it means tho
#ubuntu-doc 2006-04-17
<LaserJock> does Dapper resize NTFS to make room when installing?
<mdke> I believe so
<mdke> hoary and breezy did it, iirc, so it would be a pretty bad regression
<LaserJock> ok, well my little brother called last night and said he wanted to install linux
<LaserJock> and it has been so long since I dual booted windows and linux that I didn't know
<mdke> a great moment
<LaserJock> I had him download the Flight6 live cd
* mdke debates the merits of doing a translation of the ff start page to en_GB, just a single spelling change needed
<Burgwork> guess I should pony up a en_CA, eh?
* mdke decides that it would be a cruel and horrendous waste of CD space
<LaserJock> heh, I  was thinking some en_US translation would up his LP karam
<LaserJock> /his/mine/
<Burgwork> LaserJock, talking about yourself in the third person now? going to be declaring yourself king soon and invading California?
<LaserJock> heh, no I've been to  California
<mdke> Burgwork, firefox isn't localised for en_CA, so it wouldn't work. For some godforsaken reason, it is localised in en_GB
<LaserJock> I don't want to be king there
* Burgwork is going to be in OK at the end of April
<Burgwork> Madpilot has promised to buy me a Darwin Fish tie pin to wear to my demos
<theCore> LaserJock: hi
<LaserJock> hi theCore 
<theCore> LaserJock: is there anything left to be done for the Packaging Guide, or we need to wait for the release of Dapper?
<LaserJock> well, right now I'm waiting for one more diff to be sent to me and then  I'll wrap it up
<LaserJock> but the svn repo has been branched so we can start working on Dapper+1
<theCore> oh, ok then
<theCore> I think I found my first package to package ;)
<theCore> I will give the Packaging Guide a test run
<theCore> I planning to add some SVN stuff into the PG, for packages under development
<theCore> and probably some info about SCons, and other esoteric building system
<LaserJock> heh, well go ahead and write it up
<LaserJock> theCore: you want an interesting packaging assignment?
<theCore> yes
<LaserJock> I think it would be good to include piuparts 
<theCore> LaserJock: What is the section that talk about taking Debian packages, and modify it for Ubuntu?
<theCore> Merge and Sync?
<LaserJock> yeah
<theCore> I think the name should be changed to a more explicit one
<LaserJock> probably, I can't think of anything off the top of my head though
<theCore> but, I can't think of one too, so maybe it's the most explicit for describing that
<theCore> making the first phrase of that section explicit would fix the ``problem''
<theCore> like ``Merges is the process of taking a Debian package to the Ubuntu reposistory"
<LaserJock> well, we do that, it just takes a bit of explination
<theCore> did I got the right definition?
<theCore> or this is the Sync definition?
<LaserJock> well, it actuall describes both :-)
<theCore> eh :)
<LaserJock> the difference is that sync takes the Debian package directly and a merge means the Debian package needs to be "adjusted" by Ubuntu
<theCore> oh, then I'm doing a sync right now
<theCore> which is better lintian or linda ?
<theCore> linda seem to have more features than lintian 
<LaserJock> well,  to be honest I haven't seen linda catch anything
<LaserJock> lintian is what I've always used but you could try both and see what you think
<LaserJock> I might try out linda again and see if I'm missing something
<theCore> LaserJock: should we have a separate section for Packaging Tools and Building Tools
<LaserJock> yes, I think so. We just need to gather a list of tools and figure out which ones to use, etc.
<LaserJock> I really don't want to make the Guide any bigger than it needs to be. I think it should be complete, but not bloated up with *every* possible tool
<theCore> that's not hard
<theCore> yeah
<LaserJock> theCore: do you have a minute to clean up the wiki page?
<LaserJock> wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuPackagingGuide
<LaserJock> I haven't touched it for a while
<theCore> LaserJock: ok, II was thinking about it
<theCore> s/II/I/
<LaserJock> k, and then start adding material you want to see for Dapper+1
<theCore> LaserJock: what is the wiki names of the others contributors?
<theCore> and should I remove CoreyBurger2 from the contributor line?
<theCore> that guy seem to add his name everywhere ;)
<LaserJock> theCore: actually I don't know
<theCore> ok, I will leave it there
<LaserJock> I really don't know if it was there for a reason, or what
<theCore> maybe he contributed to the first version, or he made the Wiki page
<LaserJock> I think he made the page
<theCore> who read this page?
<LaserJock> us, I guess
<LaserJock> originally it was spec to get approved for UDU I think
<LaserJock> actually UBZ I think
<LaserJock> theCore: here it is on launchpad https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/ubuntu-packaging-guide
<theCore> "The Ubuntu Packaging guide needs a home and the Ubuntu doc team can provide that", we are really ought to change that.
<theCore> LaserJock: do you have the permission to change that?
<LaserJock> well, that was the spec, and it is marked implemented. I think it is alright the way it is
<theCore> ok, then
<theCore> LaserJock: should I remove the section we didn't made from the PG?
<theCore> like Target Audience
<LaserJock> yes, first make it what it is now and then add in stuff you would like to see
* crimsun avoids adding to bookinfo.xml
<crimsun> basic.xml is a bit unwieldy; it's _huge_ compared to the others.
<theCore> LaserJock: ok, that exactly what I was thinking
<theCore> crimsun: yes it's, that why I complain about a lack of style in the XML
<theCore> crimsun: the whole guide is essentially in this file
<crimsun> most of it
<crimsun> I've been editing is for a couple days
<crimsun> s/is/it/
<LaserJock> crimsun: yes, I'm sorry about that
<LaserJock> crimsun: I kind of threw stuff in there last minute
<crimsun> no need to apologise. We'll have it in shape for 6.06.
<LaserJock> yeah, I originally had an advanced section but in the end I didn't feel like there was enough material to justify it so I put it into Basic
<crimsun> I should have basic.xml done in a couple hours. Look for the diff tomorrow morning.
<LaserJock> ok, great
<theCore> LaserJock: ok, I cleaned the page
<theCore> LaserJock: now, let's brainstorm for the next version;)
<LaserJock> ok, great
<theCore> the page size gone to 3957 to 1819
<theCore> that's called agressive cleaning :) 
<theCore> LaserJock: when I take a package from Debian do I change the maintainer?
<LaserJock> theCore: no
<theCore> so I just upload it like it is?
<LaserJock> yes, you will be in the 
<LaserJock> Changed By: field
<theCore> LaserJock: This should be better documented
<LaserJock> yeah?
<theCore> there's nothing about that in the guide
<LaserJock> well, I guess. I didn't say to change it and you are supposed to do a changelog entry. but maybe it needs to be more explicit
<theCore> I sure could write some a Emacs mode for helping with the packages' maintenance
<LaserJock> there already are
<LaserJock> devscripts-el I think is the package
<theCore> debian-el?
<theCore> not again ...
<LaserJock> devscripts-el
<theCore> my ideas always exist
<LaserJock> heh, I don't even bother anymore ;-)
<theCore> there's no place for innovation ...
<theCore> hehe
<theCore> Ubuntu is just great 
<theCore> LaserJock: maybe, adding a section about setting a maintainer environment could be good
<LaserJock> ?
<theCore> LaserJock: think like how to watch your packages, useful script, directories hierarchy, etc
<LaserJock> ahh, yes. I would like that a lot
<theCore> all sort of things that make you more productive
<theCore> this would lower the bar for the new maintainers
<theCore> the pbuilder section is great for that
<theCore> by the way, devscripts-el is exactly what I wanted
<theCore> thanks for the info
<LaserJock> np
<theCore> I will /try/ to improve it
<theCore> so, I can do all the maintaining from emacs ;)
<LaserJock> there are a few MOTUs that do that
<LaserJock> you can report bugs to Debian from there as well
<LaserJock> hi Madpilot 
<Madpilot> hi LaserJock 
<Madpilot> has Burgundavia been around in the last couple of hours?
<theCore> LaserJock: ok, I gotta go
<theCore> cia all
<LaserJock> cya theCore 
<LaserJock> Madpilot: not really
<Madpilot> OK, was just wondering
<LaserJock> Madpilot: last thing he said was ~ 5hrs ago
<Madpilot> from work, I guess
<Burgundavia> mdke: you around?
* Burgundavia wonders why he always notices things to fix after it is too late
<robotgeek> Burgundavia: better late than never
<Burgundavia> robotgeek: I was looking at the firefox start page
* robotgeek doesn't do firefox :P
<Burgundavia> I do epiphany, but it has the same page
<Burgundavia> so, no, I don't do FF either
<Madpilot> hey, that makes three of us - and three different browsers ;)
<robotgeek> kde has a totally "different" start page :)
<LaserJock> I use safari, does that count ;-)
<LaserJock> oh, wait. this is Ubuntu
<robotgeek> LaserJock: safari is just konq for the mac
<Burgundavia> uhhh
<LaserJock> I heard that a while back ago, don't know if it really looks that way
<Burgundavia> I would actually say safari and firefox share more of the same UI
<Burgundavia> althourgh they do share a similar rendering engine
<robotgeek> khtml
<Burgundavia> UI concepts
<LaserJock> I believe that safari uses khtml though
<Burgundavia> safari uses webkit, which is a deriv of khtml
<Burgundavia> or is it webcore?
<Burgundavia> http://webkit.opendarwin.org/
<robotgeek> anyways, konqueror is pretty nice, except on a few sites. 
<LaserJock> in Linux I've only ever used Firefox and Konqi
<robotgeek> Burgundavia: does epiphany talk to liferea?
<Burgundavia> if you click on an rss link, I believe it does
<robotgeek> hmm, i moved to kubuntu because of that one "missing" feature in Ubuntu (breezy)
<Burgundavia> I don't use rss feeds anymore, due to not having an rss feed at work and my laptop being reinstalled every two weeks or less
<robotgeek> rss feeds can be a distraction
<dsas> robotgeek: It does via a plugin
<robotgeek> dsas: i did look, i swear. (but for firefox)
<dsas> robotgeek: I think it's only recently that the plugin was made tbh.
<robotgeek> well, ubuntu's loss is kubuntu's gain :)
<dsas> Burgundavia: Just setup your own personal planet, no need to worry about things that way :) (besides spending too much time reading)
<Burgundavia> dsas: yes, that is on my long term plans
* robotgeek setup scuttle yesterday, no more bookmarking on public sites
<Burgundavia> ok, grumble https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NetworkPrintingFromUbuntu
<Burgundavia> salut robitaille
<robitaille> Bonsoir Burgundavia 
<Madpilot> Burgundavia, just change that page into a redirect to one of the existing network printing pages - it's a good title, shame about the content...
<Burgundavia> lol
<Burgundavia> Madpilot: redirect to what?
<Madpilot> there's an Ubuntu-to-XP-printer page, and an XP-to-Ubuntu-printer page - whichever is a better fit
<LaserJock> ack, anybody know how to create the .pot files?
<Burgundavia> Madpilot: ugh
<Burgundavia> Madpilot: all those pages need a rewrite
<Burgundavia> guess I should borrow a printer and try it out
<Madpilot> my old Lexmark is still downstairs, I think it kind of runs in Ubuntu :P
<Madpilot> actually it did, but as a printer it just sucked - and all it's ink has dried out
<Burgundavia> there are 6 dead printers in the garage here
<Burgundavia> at least one of them must poweron
<Madpilot> my Lexmark does at least poweron, it'll even move it's printheads
<robitaille> and my printer doesn't even work in Dapper...
<Madpilot> robitaille, did it in Breezy?
<robitaille> yes.  
<robitaille> and yes a bug report has been filled weeks ago
<Burgundavia> robitaille: try again today, the new guten print just hit
<robitaille> ah.  Hopefully that will do it.  that's  a showstopper to upgrade the desktop here since the rest of the family uses the printer
<Burgundavia> it might have been an issue with ppd's moving
<Burgundavia> seems the new cups is looking for them in a different dir and gutenprint hadn't caught up yet
<robitaille> it prints, but only blank pages :)
<Burgundavia> I think, at least
<Burgundavia> I am usually wrong on these things
<mdke_> Burgundavia, hi
<Burgundavia> mdke_: morning
<Burgundavia> mdke_: once again, I have brilliant ideas at the eleventh hour
<mdke_> Burgundavia, advance warning: I've had lots of translations already for that page, so we can't change any strings
<Burgundavia> ah, in that case, np
<Burgundavia> however, we do, in any current lit, describe ourselves as "The Ubuntu Project"
<Burgundavia> we decribe ourselves as a project, but not capital P
<mdke_> so small "p"?
<Burgundavia> yep
<mdke_> we can probably do that, it's a correction to the english version
<mdke_> so it shouldn't affect the translations too badly
<Burgundavia> oh, wait, there is a reference to capital P on the Ubuntu.com/ubuntu site
<Burgundavia> easier to nuke that, as it is the only place we say that
<mdke_> there are a lot of capital letters that shouldn't be there in the ff home page
<mdke_> especially links
<Burgundavia> yep
<mdke_> I am quite tempted to correct them, and inform the translators. they can change theirs if they like
<Burgundavia> ok, reference to Ubuntu Project dead on teh ubutnu webiste
<Burgundavia> I am on a mission to find and make certain we refer to ourselves as just Ubuntu, not Ubuntu Linux or anything else
<Burgundavia> reduces confusion
<Burgundavia> another minor point, maybe call it Ubuntu 6.06 (Dapper Drake), for conformity with the docs
<mdke_> yes, I grepped all the docs for that
<mdke_> (Ubuntu Linux)
<Burgundavia> Welcome to Ubuntu 6.06, Dapper Drake!
<mdke_> hmm, I don't think we can change that because all the translations have done it
<mdke_> no biggie, I hope
<Burgundavia> ha
<Burgundavia> ya
<robitaille> Burgundavia: just tried the new gutenprint.  It's actually worse.  Before it was printing blank pages.  Now I cannot even add the printer :)
<Burgundavia> robitaille: cool!
<Burgundavia> I love printing
<Burgundavia> ok, ladislav at distrowatch rocksw
<Burgundavia> I emailed him today about it being Ubuntu Linux, not Ubuntu, and he as fixed it already
<mdke_> Burgundavia, the other way round, right?
<Burgundavia> ya
<mdke_> phew
<Burgundavia> it was listed as Ubuntu Linux, not Ubuntu
<mdke_> nice work
<Burgundavia> sorry, realized that wasn't clear
<Burgundavia> given how bad most distros are about cohesive marketing...
<Burgundavia> can we not generate a pot of the ff start page when it is xhtml
<Burgundavia> ?
<Madpilot> AFAIK it is, and we did
<Burgundavia> then why did we not use rosetta?'
<mdke_> we didn't
<mdke_> I came to the conclusion it wasn't really worth it for such a short file, maybe wrongly I guess
<Burgundavia> ah, ok
<Burgundavia> meh, you live and learn
<mdke_> it's a slightly tricky business though
<mdke_> only locales for which a firefox translation exist will appear
<mdke_> this way, I can explain that to everyone who sends me a translation but doesn't have a firefox localisation
* netjoined: irc.freenode.net -> brown.freenode.net
<mdke_> holy moley
<mdke_> kubuntu-docs (binary) is 11MB
<mdke_> we need to do something about that
<mdke_> robotgeek, none of the images were used afaics, I've nuked them all
<jenda> Hello doc team. Could I ask you a favor in the name of the Marketing Team, which is going through a reform around this time. We will be dropping two projects (at least): New User Literature and Speaker Literature. These are/were in charge for creating/obtaining material for SpreadUbuntu and DIY Marketing (and potentially other projects) to draw upon. We decided that this is redundant, as the Doc Team has probably created enough already - AFAIK, it w
<jenda> as active all the time the MT laid in ruins. So, since you know a lot better what you have than I do, would any of you mind having a look around for docs that help clear what ubuntu is to a person (see spreadfirefox.com ) and even more important, somesuch that could help people wha plan to preach publically about Ubuntu. We will then hopefully rework the former into leaflets, posters and the latter to teaching guides, advocacy papers et al. Thanks, 
<jenda> --Jenda.
<mhz> jenda: hmm have you seen new "dapper firefox default url" ?
<jenda> mhz nope...
* mhz neither, jenda 
<mhz> but I have been told it is pretty much a summary of what you need
<jenda> Hmm... (note to self - find dapper user)
<LaserJock> that is probably online somewhere
<Burgwork> what do you need jenda ?
<jenda> Read above, Burgwork - nothing more, nothing less - except, if you use dapper, what's the default page in FF there? I can't fnid it online anywhere.
<jenda> :)
<Burgwork> it is in svn
<jenda> Where?
<Burgwork>  /DocumentationTeam
<Burgwork> has a link to the svn repo
<jenda> OK, thx
<LaserJock> jenda: I've got a copy at http://chem.unr.edu/~mantha/ubuntu/starterpage/home/
<jenda> yay, thanks, LaserJock 
<LaserJock> at least I think that is it, I just copied it from my ubuntu box
<poningru> arr
<poningru> hey guys
<jenda> OK, that's not really what the Marketing Team needs, since it's intended for the user who has just booted to dapper. What I'm looking for is intended for one that has just been told "oi, check out Ubuntu, it rocks"
<jenda> 'lo poningru
<jenda> LaserJock: i'll toss it to the Team anyway - will you keep it up there for some time, or is it temp?
<poningru> jenda: that needs a full team to create matierials
<LaserJock> jenda: I'd take a look at doc.ubuntu.com
<poningru> during sfx we had community drives to create matierials
<jenda> poningru: i know, I was of the impression that this team already _had_ something.
<poningru> jenda: well docs are not a good way to do this imho
<LaserJock> jenda: I think what you might want is http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/about-ubuntu/C/index.html
<poningru> it needs things like tiny pics, vids, etc. that are drive by marketing kinda
<jenda> The MT will then rework what it gets (hopefully - I won't be there to do all the work) and makes what's missing.
<jenda> poningru: that we can manage.
<jenda> Or "they"
<poningru> hmm right
<jenda> I'm trying to get something going - as soon as it does (and I think it might), I'll take a break till June 22.
* jenda has to
<jenda> Thanks, LaserJock, going through that.
<jenda> LaserJock: Yes, that's exactly what I needed.
<jenda> Now all that the MT lacks is something for the advocates. But perhaps that could be extracted as well.
<jenda> LaserJock: is all that content FDL/CC?
<jenda> n/m, found it.
<LaserJock> jenda: should be, we only have 1 doc that isn't
<jenda> out of curiosity - which one?
<LaserJock> the Ubuntu Packaging Guide
<LaserJock> it is GPL
<LaserJock> since all of  Debian packaging docs are GPL and we will have an Ubuntu Developer's Reference that will be GPL
<jenda> OK
<mdke_> evening all
<LaserJock> hi mdke 
<Burgwork> salut mdke 
<mdke> what's going down in docland?
<LaserJock> huge commits to the dapper branch
<LaserJock> :-)
<mdke> :)
<jenda> mdke: thx @ mailing list :)
<jenda> LaserJock: prime stuff, what you linked me to...
<jenda> mdke https://wiki.ubuntu.com/GreatFeaturesOfUbuntu, been looking for for _ages_
<mdke> jenda, np
<jenda> BTW, isn't flash proprietary? maybe the mentioned animations should use a free format.
<mdke> heh
<poningru> hehe
<mdke> jenda, don't worry, they think about these things
<poningru> there is no free animation protocol that is well used
<poningru> or easy to create
<poningru> canvas can be used
<mdke> there is free flash code. but that animation is being deferred for dapper+1, I'm afraid
<poningru> but...
<mdke> still good material tho
<poningru> firefox supports canvas out of the box and we could do our animations in that but its a pita to create
<jenda> OK :)
<Burgwork> they are going to create flash that can be read with gnash
<Burgwork> btw, mdke, have you heard anything more on that?
<mdke> yes, it's off
<mdke> apparently there was a problem with the software
<Burgwork> ah
<mdke> ->dapper+1
<LaserJock> heh, dapper+1 should really rock if we can just get all the things we deferred from dapper in :-)
<mdke> LaserJock, yes, it should be pretty hot
<Burgwork> xgl, gnash, beagle, etc.
<Burgwork> where does the crack end?
<mdke> heh
<frank23> what is gnash?
<Burgwork> a gpl implementation of flash
<frank23> Burgwork: oh. does it work well?
<jenda> supybot says: "G.N.A.S.H.: General Networked Android Skilled in Harm" :)
<Burgwork> frank23, somewhat
<Burgwork> currently supports only part of 7 and not 8
<mdke> right
<mdke> time to format and reinstall everything
<mdke> i haven't done that for _ages_
<LaserJock> mdke: I'm done
<LaserJock> mdke: the only thing I will probably replace dapper with the name of dapper+1 (once it is finalized) since most of the development during dapper will be for dapper+1
<mdke> LaserJock_away, cool
<mdke> ahhhh crap
* mdke 's CD fails in mid restore-to-factory-settings
<LaserJock> oh crap
<mdke> looks like the old "keep windows on the lappy for safe keeping" is going to have to go down the drain
<LaserJock> I forgot to update the .pot :(
<mdke> LaserJock, i was about to say "new pot please"
<LaserJock> done
<mdke> good man
<LaserJock> I can't believe I forgot
<mdke> np dude
<crimsun> I'm guessing my edits weren't merged?
<LaserJock> yes
<LaserJock> they are in and ready to be translated, soon
<mdke> crimsun, :)
<crimsun> are you committing to an "internal" svn server?
<crimsun> as of r2870, my changes still don't appear
<mdke> crimsun, we're in a branch now
<LaserJock> crimsun: oh, yes. dapper was branched
<crimsun> ARGH.
<LaserJock> I'm going to commit them today in trunk but I just wanted to make sure they went into dapper first
<LaserJock> crimsun: sorry about that dude
<LaserJock> crimsun: as of 2871 they should be in ;-)
<jjesse> LaserJock: raphink says in the packaging guide his name isn't spelled right?
<LaserJock> jjesse: grrr, really?
<crimsun> my name isn't spelled at all :p
* crimsun chuckles
<LaserJock> doh
<mdke> meh
<LaserJock> jjesse: I had it right. It was wrong a while back ago but I fixed it. I think it just took a while to get updated online, etc.
<mdke> LaserJock, crimsun's should be there though
<LaserJock> yes, most definately
<crimsun> I'm jesting; it doesn't matter
<mdke> it does!
<jjesse> LaserJock: ah ok
<LaserJock> It matters to me, you did an huge facor
<LaserJock> favor
<crimsun> now back to alsa. sigh.
<LaserJock> you really helped the readability of the doc
<mdke> LaserJock, I'm going to need to do a couple of edits to the server guide too
<mdke> dammit
<mdke> we suck as this "freeze" business
<crimsun> hehe, if you think it's bad now, I don't know if you remember Warty ;)
<mdke> I wasn't involved in docs for warty
<mdke> were there any?
<crimsun> not really, just referring to last-minutes
<Burgwork> for warty?
<Burgwork> nope
<mdke> trappist, while I'm at the server guide, are you going to have any ifup/down action going on today?
<LaserJock> mdke: if you use aptitude then it grabs Recommended by default, that might have been the problem
<mdke> could be
<mdke> but we don't, in that doc
<LaserJock> oh crap, I have a major pain in my back today. I can't sit up straight :(
<trappist> mdke: hopefully this evening
<mdke> trappist, that would be cool
<trappist> mdke: I think you owe me $10 for being glad I solicited reviews :)
<trappist> 10:57 <trappist> mdke: $10 says we'll be glad we did it - people will catch things we won't believe we didn't catch ourselves
<LaserJock> heh, either that or you own him $10 for the pain you have caused ;p
<trappist> fine, we'll call it even :)
<trappist> would have been less painful if the post to the -server list didn't have to wait for a moderator, which wouldn't have happened if I'd been subscribed, and I would have been subscribed if the list was listed on lists.ubuntu.com... so somebody owes me $10 by god!
<LaserJock> maybe you should ask Mark for it?
<trappist> who's that? shuttleworth?
<LaserJock> yeah
<trappist> if he's in charge of lists.ubuntu.com, I just might ;)
<LaserJock> I'm sure somehow he is :-)
<mdke_> trappist, did I take that bet?
<trappist> I guess not
<mdke_> i tell you what is terrible
<mdke_> syntax highlighting isn't working in gedit now
<mdke_> trappist, warning: lamont is the debian+ubuntu postfix maintainer ;)
<trappist> hehe
<trappist> I had no idea
<Burgwork> trappist, lamont is also 40+ and has worked for exactly two companies in his life
<Burgwork> HP and Canonical
<trappist> that's pretty awesome.
<LaserJock> trappist: http://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ch-relationships.html
<trappist> LaserJock: beautiful, thanks :)
#ubuntu-doc 2006-04-18
<mdke> actually, gedit in general has had a few regressions, I may have to start using a real editor at some stage
<Burgwork> mdke, bug pbor, gedit is quite interested in making it more than just a text editor
<mdke> pbor?
<mdke> ok
<Burgwork> that is his irc nick on gimp.net
<mdke> lack of syntax highlighting (bug) and crappy "go to line" (feature?) is annoying me right now
* mdke_ omg's at his internet connection
<mdke_> can I send someone a patch for the serverguide? My svn password is indisposed
* mdke_ kicks channel
* mhz wears protective gear :D
<LaserJock> mdke_: I can if you want
<mdke_> thanks dude
<Burgwork> mdke_, I really wish we could change our svn passwords...
<trappist> +1
<mdke_> we might be tempted to make them less secure!
<LaserJock> or let other people make changes when we can't remember ours ;-)
<Burgwork> so secure I don't commit due to not being on the machine that has the password on it
<trappist> LaserJock: :)
<trappist> it's practically impossible to remember a secure-enough password.  especially with as many passwords as most people have.
<trappist> we could use ssh + keys instead
<LaserJock> that is why I kept my email so I can go look it up
<mdke_> my fingers tend to remember my ssh key password
<mdke_> but if I had to write it down, I'd struggle
<mdke_> even though it's not very hard
<mdke_> LaserJock, sent
<trappist> mdke_: there's a motivation when that one pass(word|phrase) unlocks dozens of accounts
<mdke_> yeah, i use it for gpg too
<trappist> gack
<mdke_> ssh
<trappist> my gpg passphrase, I use ONLY for gpg
<Burgwork> indeed
<mdke_> anyway, postfix works now
<trappist> and it contains a confession to a crime, lest anyone try to subpoena it.  no idea if that would hold up :)
<crimsun> LaserJock: in vim, [esc] :%s/[ctrl+v] [ctrl+m] //g     (where you'd actually press esc, ctrl+v, and ctrl+m)
<LaserJock> crimsun: ah, good to know
<LaserJock> mdke_: this should go in dapper branch server guide, right?
<mdke_> LaserJock, yes please
<LaserJock> mdke_: r2874
<mdke_> LaserJock, merci beaucoup. trappist, it's all yours
<mdke> jeez, evolution is a lot uglier in dapper
* mdke whinges generally
<Burgundavia> mdke: having fun? ;)
<Burgundavia> evo needs to die
<mdke> why the hell is the folder tree so heavily indented now?
<mdke> maybe it's the font
* mdke gives seb a bit of bugmail
* mgalvin shoots evo
<Burgundavia> eds is nice
<Burgundavia> dates, contacts and tinymail look cool
<mdke> argh
<mdke> and nautilus crashes all the time
<mdke> gnome 2.14.1 had better be good :)
<crimsun> don't we already have 2.14.1?
<mdke> I'm still on 2.14.0, just installed from flight 6 and still upgrading
<mdke> dunno if it's on its way in the upgrade
<crimsun> ah. yeah, it went in yesterday.
<mdke> ah cool
<mdke> right now, if I try and drag and drop a file from a directory where I have read (not write) permission, it tries to move it, and says "permission denied"
* mdke slaps nautilus
<robotgeek> hey KingBahamut , long time
<KingBahamut> rg
<KingBahamut> whats the know?
<robotgeek> translations have begun 
<robotgeek> anyone notice the new lp look, very slick
<crimsun> I'm undecided about the dropdowns, but I do like the new workflow
<crimsun> namely there's now an option for filing a bug against some package of which you don't know the name
<crimsun> I'm certainly finding it more intuitive than bugzilla, but perhaps that's just my addled brain
* robotgeek tries searching for konq bugs
<robotgeek> the dropdowns are slightly confusing, as they don't appear for all "tabs"
* robotgeek files bug
<Madpilot> hi all
<Burgundavia> salut Madpilot
<dsas> hallo
<Burgundavia> Madpilot: sick, but funny humour --> http://www.um.com.au/gallipoli.html
<Madpilot> Burgundavia, oh boy. Does it actually run?
<Burgundavia> not tried it
<Burgundavia> but unlike lemmings, you get points by killing your men
<Madpilot> well, of course. An authentic WW1 game should :P
<Burgundavia> Madpilot: I am annoyed I am going to be missing LWNW
<Madpilot> yeah, but you'll be making money and exploring exciting Oklahoma! :P
<robotgeek> we should meet if you will coming around NY :)
<Madpilot> robotgeek, I thought you were in Texas?
<robotgeek> Madpilot: i moved to NJ
<Burgundavia> not likely to be on the east coast for a while
<Madpilot> Burgundavia, any of your sales territory in the eastern US?
<Burgundavia> further east in the US is Michigan
<highvoltage> ubuntu-docs just got upgraded, the version number is still 6.04. that's changing to 6.06, right.
<mdke> highvoltage, it changes according to which month we're in
<highvoltage> aaaaah
<mdke> cool huh?
<mdke> must have been dholbach's idea
<mdke> Burgwork, you can open odt's in abiword?? awesome news, thanks
<rob> hmm, Brian had a good point on the forums regarding the marketing team thread on the list
<rob> gotta wonder why they didn't do that in the first place
<mdke> yes, there's no reason to have another separate one
<rob> yep
<rob> just spoke to jenda, apparently the forums won't support them, they asked for that when they first started
<rob> kind of stinks if you ask me
<mdke> rob, maybe they didn't approach them in the right way
<rob> maybe
<rob> heh yeah
<jenda> rob! that's not the way it is - that's just the way it started
<jenda> anyway - I said we would consider it :)
<rob> did you ask them or just set up your own forum, then ask?
<jenda> I have a _lot_ on my shoulders studying and Lloyd fighting SWpats in Ireland - so give us time :)
<mdke> it would be quite easy for the forums to add a "marketing" section, actually they probably have something similar already
<rob> mdke, yes, and they might just have
* rob looks
<rob> there is a Ubuntu art forum at least..
<mdke> it's pretty tricky to find forums now with the new layout...
<mdke> they definitely should add a marketing/advocacy forum
<jenda> mdke, rob - please let us make a decision before we do anything :) We have a good forum worknig at the moment.
<rob> http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=78
<rob> what the heck? Ubuntu User Guide forum?
<mdke> rob, that's the old ubuntuguide.org forum
<rob> apparently not: http://easylinux.info/wiki/Ubuntu_dapper
<jenda> that is now replaced, I think by easylinux.info
* rob bashes head into wall
<rob> make the bad man stop!
<mdke> rob, that's the new (updated) ubuntuguide
<rob> yeah, and its just as locked down too (looks like a wiki, smells like a wiki, but won't let you sign up a new account!)
<mdke> I think it should be open
<rob> nope, need to be registered to edit, clicking on Create an account or login only gives you the option to log in
<jenda> rob: it is a wiki, but AFAIK, closed a bit... it's kinda why I left the project :)
* rob slaps easylinux.info and points at http://doc.ubuntu.com
<rob> I really need to get cracking on those ideas from a few weeks ago..
<jenda> I'd like to point the Doc Team's attention to an idea i submitted in the MT (not mine originally): http://www.ubuntupeople.com/file/forums/viewtopic.php?t=58
<jenda> it concerns shipit - a way to make it more effective.
<jenda> by including... what else... a little bit of documentation.
<mdke> jenda, posting to the mailing list is the best idea
<jenda> k
<mdke> someone is going to have to pay for it though
<mdke> so include jane on the email
<mdke> jenda, ^
<jenda> Hmm... can you give me an address? I have little clue who jane is :)
<mdke> erm...
<mdke> you have a marketing team which has no contact with Canonical at all?
<jenda> I'm not the contact :)
<mdke> ok
<jenda> And Lloyd Hardy would know more.
<mdke> most marketing is done within Canonical, so I kinda assumed the group would be tightly integrated
<mdke> it's jane.silber@canonical.com
<jenda> In fact, I was thinking it would be better to present Canonical/shipit with a ready made booklet - don't worry, it wouldn't be wasted work even if they refuse.
<jenda> thanks.
<trappist> hey fellas, http://www.conglomerate.org/
<mdke> hi trappist 
<trappist> hey mdke 
<trappist> I'm just now getting started on the serverguide :/
<mdke> trappist, that's great!
<trappist> wait, should I check out the new branch? what's going on with that?
<mdke> yes, do everything in the branch
<mdke> it's not so big, 40 meg or so
<trappist> got a svn co url?
<mdke> https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/branches/dapper
<trappist> thanks
<trappist> 14M here
<jjesse> just check out everything from https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos  :)
<mdke> oh, even better
<mdke> jjesse, heh, that takes a _long_ time.
<mdke> i did it this morning, so frustrating to see all the crap we have hanging around
<jjesse> mdke: grin i know
<mdke> we should get rid of "vendor" and "branches/froud" i think
<jjesse> agreed on the branches/froud
<trappist> any of you guys have a non-dhcp ethernet device and want to share your /etc/network/interfaces with me to use as an example?
<jjesse> sure hold on
<jjesse> trappist: how does this look :http://pastebin.com/657790
<trappist> jjesse: that'll get me started, thanks
<LaserJock> hi jenda 
<jenda> hello... just blew a fuse - otherwise, I wasn't away :)
<trappist> mdke: new network configuration section is committed
<mdke> trappist, awesome!
<mdke> trappist, ok, i tested postfix yesterday and it works, so what's next? do we want to try and get in his suggestions about referring to upstream documentation for every apache directive?
<mdke> it might be a bit tricky, because sometimes there is more than one directive per paragraph
<trappist> mdke: I think it could be made less intrusive by changing directive names to ulinks to their respective pages
<mdke> trappist, that would work, if we introduce the idea in the introduction. nice idea
<trappist> mdke: I've been getting my butt kicked at work this week.  I'm sorta pushing it, taking the time to do the network configuration just now.  I can see about getting to apache this evening, if you haven't done it by then.
<mdke> trappist, I think I can do it. I've got the day off today
<trappist> sweet
<trappist> is launchpad down?
<mdke> all of Ubuntu is down
<trappist> suck
<mdke> trappist, do you think the apache changes are important? It has occurred to me that a lot of long strings will be changed, some translation may be lost. Not sure whether it will be worth it.
<trappist> mdke: I think that's a good call.  I think it's a great idea but not worth messing with or delaying the translators.
<mdke> trappist, I'm going to look at the state of translations when LP comes back up, then we'll see
<trappist> any word on why it's down?
<mdke>  [16:59:51]  < Kinnison> DC appears to have dropped off the 'net
<mdke> ah, back
<mdke> trappist, hmm. some people have made a fair start on it, but nothing too big
<trappist> my thinking is, we refer to the top level of the apache docs (iirc) and the items for individual config directives are easy to find from there, so it's a good idea, but I still dunno if it's worth a string freeze exception
<mdke> let's leave it
<mdke> is anything else not working in the guide?
<trappist> I'd have to look back at those emails...
<mdke> there was something brief on the firewall bit
<trappist> yeah I'm looking at it now
<trappist> I actually sort of disagree with him on his suggestion.  his rules cast a wider net, which is ok and potentially simpler, but it's also slightly less secure and incur unnecessary overhead by masquerading packets that don't need it
<trappist> like packets originating from the firewall box
<trappist> oh, actually it doesn't do that, nm.  I think I'll put it in the same category - good suggestion, but not an error correction or anything major enough for a string freeze exception.  that's my vote.
<mdke> ok, fine
<mdke> ok, everything else is fixed, I think
<mdke> yes
<trappist> great
<trappist> mdke: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Listiquette <-- excellent
<trappist> mdke: I've heard it suggested that when you remove text from an attributed quote, you should replace the removed text with something like "[snip] " to avoid confusion about context.  what do you think?
<mdke> trappist, sure, that's good practice, I think
<Burgwork> mdke, is there a way to force the logout of another user on the system
<mdke> Burgwork, no idea dude, sorry
<Burgwork> you must be able to do it, I just don't know how
<mdke> yeah, maybe someone in #ubuntu will know
* Burgwork braves #ubuntu
<dsas> Burgwork: If they're ssh'd in you can kill the pid of their ssh session
<Burgwork> logged in directly
<trappist> could kill the pid of their shell
<Burgwork> hmm
<Burgwork> trappist, how would I go about finding that?
<trappist> ps aux | grep username ?
<Burgwork> can I kill their gnome-session?
<trappist> oh, that kind of login...
<trappist> he'll probably have lots of stuff running as him
<dsas> ps -u$username would be the 'canonical' way to do that, I  believe.
<Burgwork> yep
<trappist> dsas: good call
<trappist> Burgwork: it would probably be unsafe unless there's some kind of logout signal gnome would accept
<trappist> and I don't know if there's such a thing
<Burgwork> hmm, just did that
<Burgwork> I don;t know that that killed xscreensaver, which is eating the cpu
<trappist> if you're worried about xscreensaver, why not just kill xscreensaver?
<Burgwork> hmm, now I don't know what is happening
<Burgwork> cpu usage is spiked at 100%, with top claiming that this is X doing it. Usually that means xscreensaver is running a 3d screensaver on these radeon 7000s
<mdke> http://www.mdke.org/images/l10n.png
<mdke> sexy
<robotgeek> mdke: ++
<trappist> hot
<Burgwork> shiny
* Burgwork bangs off another email to fix an reference to Ubuntu Linux, this time with LWN
<mdke> crap
* mdke swears at xml2po
<mdke> god. It's a dark day when your goddam terminal crashes
<mdke> LaserJock, http://mdke.org/images/package.png
<LaserJock> mdke: that is soo cool
<mdke> :)
<LaserJock> mdke: do you use translate.sh to do that?
<mdke> yes
<theCore> LaserJock: hi
<LaserJock> hi theCore 
<LaserJock> theCore: check out http://mdke.org/images/package.png
<theCore> is it the Packaging Guide?
<LaserJock> yep
<theCore> in Japanese?
<theCore> woah!
<LaserJock> hmm, not sure my guess is Korean or Chinese
<mdke> korean yeah
<LaserJock> theCore: the details are at: https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/dapper/+source/ubuntu-docs/+pots/packagingguide/
<theCore> they translate faster than we write :)
<theCore> a lot faster
<LaserJock> but there are a lot of translations to do as well
<LaserJock> I talked to raphink (who is a core-dev and MOTU) about translations (he is doing French) and he said it was really hard
<LaserJock> even though he knew the material
<theCore> the guide or to translate?
<LaserJock> translate
<LaserJock> he also wrote some
<theCore> fhew 
<LaserJock> theCore: can you translate?
<theCore> yes I could 
<LaserJock> what languages do you know (English obviously)
<theCore> but not now, I got a family supper today
<theCore> French
<LaserJock> ah, yes of course
<LaserJock> I see mdke did some Italian :-)
<LaserJock> no German though, which seems odd
<theCore> I wish I could speak Italian ...
<mdke> LaserJock, only like a string, was just testing something
<mdke> ahhhh
<LaserJock> mdke: actually 3 strings it looks like ;-)
* mdke has finished with svn for now
<LaserJock> heh, keep telling yourself that ;-)
<mdke> aboutubuntu and aboutkubuntu aren't working, I've had to file a bug on xml2po
<LaserJock> :(
<mdke> everything else seems to work very nicely
<theCore> Launchpad interface for translating is ugly 
<mdke> LaserJock, that's ok, the xml2po guy is a GOD, he will sort it quickly
<mdke> cvs xml2po even has an "ubuntu mode" since I asked him about something that xml2po couldn't do
<theCore> Hmm ... I can't translate, because I'm not an ``official'' translator.
<LaserJock> mdke: wow, cool
<LaserJock> theCore: I think you can
<mdke> you can make suggestions
<LaserJock> but it probably has to be review first or something like that
<theCore> ok, I see
<theCore> I must go now
<theCore> cya later
<LaserJock> mdke: I'd like to say thanks for all the leadership and help you have provided, you have really inspired me to be a part of the doc team :-)
<mdke> LaserJock, aww. thanks, it's been great to have you on board!
<mdke> this release cycle has been awesome for new contributors, it's been really exciting
<mdke> LaserJock, in your case, you joining has meant an extra doc, so :)
<LaserJock> well, I'm hoping to be able to help with all the docs for Dapper+1
<mdke> that would be great
<LaserJock> I'm not a writer and I have a lot to learn, but I really enjoy this team
<mdke> that's made my day
<LaserJock> well, seeing something I have written be translated before my eyes into so many languages and to have it go out to so many people
<LaserJock> it's amazing and humbling at the same  time
<mdke> yeah it is pretty cool. I hope lots of translations get done
#ubuntu-doc 2006-04-19
<Unfrgiven> hi all
<LaserJock> hi everybody
<LaserJock> hi Unfrgiven 
<robotgeek> hi LaserJock 
<LaserJock> hi robotgeek 
<robotgeek> how goes it?
<robotgeek> how does it feel with all the work behind you? :)
<LaserJock> ok, a little less busy since the Packaging Guide is finish (mostly)
<robotgeek> nice
<LaserJock> now, I need to focus on MOTU work
<robotgeek> i need to finish EU, and find a job
<LaserJock> hi rob and Burgundavia 
<rob> hi LaserJock 
<Burgundavia> salut LaserJock
<LaserJock> mdke showed me a screenshot of the packaging guide translated into Korean. it is amazing to see something you wrote in a language you can't read ;-)
<rob> hehe
<LaserJock> I think the Korean translation is almost half done already
<LaserJock> I'm also discovering the joys of having a personal desktop wiki around
<LaserJock> I'm documenting all my procedures for installing all kinds of python tool for Windows so I only have to go to one place to get all the directions
<Burgundavia> salut robitaille
<robitaille> Hi Burgundavia 
<Burgundavia> night all
<Burgundavia> see you all next week
<Burgundavia> I am going to be offline until Monday
#ubuntu-doc 2006-04-20
* mdke throws some tumbleweed at #ubuntu-doc
<jjesse> not all of us are gone :)
<mdke> jjesse, :)
<jjesse> how are things going mdke?
<mdke> jjesse, not too bad, just relaxing generally. you?
<jjesse> the same, getting ready for bed, early morning tomorrow
<mdke> jjesse, working?
<jjesse> mdke: no my wife and i belong to a running club/group and the long runs are on saturday.  need to up and ready to leave by 7:15 to get to the place we are all meeting, 14 miles tomorrow :(
<jjesse> ok heading to bed have a good night ::)
<mdke> blimey
<mdke> jjesse, good night, good luck!
<rob> I might have a new tool for you guys to play with soon enough.. just got to get it to a working state.
<rob> yay for randomness
<jsgotangco> ?
<rob> a web based docbook editor
<rob> works with svn too
<rob> actually it will allow you to edit in any supported format you like (even plain text) and convert between docbook on the fly
<jsgotangco> ahh that might be useful
<rob> kind of like a wiki in a way
<jsgotangco> gnome upstream would love something like that too
<rob> I should have a test server set up in the next couple of days
<rob> setting up a subversion server from scratch is more complicated then I though :)
<rob> thought even
<jsgotangco> no its not if you're just going to use svnserve
<jsgotangco> if you're going to use webdav it becomes a bit complicated
<rob> yeah, I set it up with apache+webdav
<jsgotangco> yeah its a bit of a mess
<rob> easy to add new users to though
<rob> once set up
<jsgotangco> yeah
<LaserJock_away> rob: is this something you are writing?
<rob> LaserJock_away, mostly done already, a GPLed project I found on sourceforge
<rob> I did have the idea to do something similar, but why reinvent the wheel I guess
<LaserJock_away> rob: what's it called
<rob> http://freshmeat.net/projects/doc-book/
<jsgotangco> i thought this was a google bounty before
<rob> jsgotangco, that was sumra, largely incomplete
<rob> and docudo doesn't support docbook, I emailed the list and they replied that they don't intend on any time soon either
<LaserJock> rob: sounds cool
<LaserJock> rob: hopefully it creates nice docbook ;-)
<rob> hehe yep, thats one of the things I'm checking out :)
<Kamping_Kaiser> how can i insert an ampersand into a docbook file?  is it &amp;
<Kamping_Kaiser> nm, i tried it out ;)
<poningru> so can ubuntu-doc have some soc thing?
<Kamping_Kaiser> does anyone else use vims :make option to test docs as you work on them? i'm just discovering how insanely usefull it is
<LaserJock> mdke: ping?
<LaserJock> trappist: ping?
#ubuntu-doc 2006-04-21
<mdke> LaserJock_away, pong
<mdke> trappist, sorry, I don't see why removing xreflabels will have an unintended effect on cross references links
<mdke> for example, the serverguide doesn't use them at all, and it happily cross references links
* mdke kicks screen
<highvoltage> mdke: how come? if you got a "Lost terminal" it probably means you weren't running under screen.
<mdke> highvoltage, i was though :)
<mdke> i had to go out and kill it
<highvoltage> murderer!
<mdke> it deserved it
<highvoltage> probably did
<mdke> LaserJock_away, just had a quick look at the PG, from what I can see, the way you use linkends, there will be no problem simply removing the xreflabels and letting the links take their text from the relevant section titles
<robotgeek> mdke: damn, i replied to you instead of to the list
<mdke> robotgeek, np. By the way, this isn't super urgent
<mdke> it can easily wait until next week at least
<robotgeek> mdke: just came back from a run, i'll try to see if i can regex it :)
<mdke> cool :)
<mdke> ah good
<LaserJock> mdke: you sure?
<mdke> LaserJock, why not?
<LaserJock> mdke: ok, so the beginning of http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/packagingguide/C/basic-scratch.html
<mdke> take a look at the ubuntu desktop guide in yelp, common tasks -> video -> dvd's has quite a few
<LaserJock> there is a link to the pbuilder section
<mdke> oh hell
<mdke> well, that has to go
<mdke> further down that page, the link to "Common Mistakes" is how internal links should be done
<mdke> (in my opinion)
<LaserJock> mdke: and at http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/packagingguide/C/basic-chap.html
<LaserJock> there is a link to the chroot section
<mdke> yeah, I see the problem. Damn
<LaserJock> mdke: so what I'm saying is that I agree with you
<LaserJock> but it might take a few string changes for me to make the change
<LaserJock> sorry about that
<mdke> yes, I see. I think it's worth doing the changes
<mdke> linking on words like that is not a good idea, I don't think, because it is not obvious its a cross-reference
<mdke> however, let's think about this
<mdke> LaserJock, both those examples are of words which don't get translated
<mdke> so in theory, you could leave those xreflabels, and remove others
<mdke> thoughts?
<LaserJock> hmm, well I'd like to get it right, and I'd like to make sure the links are translated
<mdke> well, no one is going to translate "chroot" or "pbuilder", right? so those xreflabels are not a problem, they work in all languages
<mdke> how many string changes are we talking?
<LaserJock> not many. in fact, if we leave chroot and pbuilder then it might be fine as is
<LaserJock> I'd have to look
<mdke> ideally, I'd like you to do the changes, but if there are a few big paragraphs that translations would have to redo, it might be worth leaving chroot/pbuilder or whatever else won't make a difference
<mdke> see how you go, I'd say
<LaserJock> ok, I'll go through and see what I can do, just greping for linkend looks like it might be only 1 or 2 changes.
<mdke> thanks a lot dude
<theCore> hi LaserJock
<theCore> LaserJock: spliting basics.xml?
<theCore> what is froud?
<mdke> froud is the irc nickname of a guy who used to work in the docteam
<theCore> mdke: oh, ok
<mdke> why do you ask?
<theCore> mdke: I thought it was the new devel version name
<mdke> ?!
<mdke> where did you hear that?
<theCore> mdke: I saw a branch in the repository named froud
<mdke> oh right, gotcha
<theCore> https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/branches/froud/
<mdke> we should probably delete it
<mdke> ok, I'm going to bed
<mdke> later all
<LaserJock> hi theCore 
<LaserJock> cya mdke 
<theCore> good bye mdke
<theCore> LaserJock: so, are you spliting basics.xml?
<LaserJock> theCore: no
<LaserJock> theCore: just trying to make things translatable
<theCore> LaserJock: by the way, do you if there's any issues with pbuilder?
<LaserJock> theCore: I think I cleaned it up
<theCore> with the program itself, not the docs
<LaserJock> oh, not that I know of
<theCore> Hmm ...
<theCore> I wonder why then mine isn't working
<theCore> s/then//
<LaserJock> sometimes the mirrors are not working for a bit
<theCore> I able to fetch the package, but I get a wierd error at the end
<LaserJock> which package is it dying on?
<theCore> I don't remember
<trappist> mdke: that would only happen if the xreflabel was added because the linked section's title didn't fit the narrative flow where the link is, and that's the only reason I can think of to specify an xreflabel
<LaserJock> right, so maybe xreflabel is just something we shouldn't use
<trappist> maybe so
<trappist> it's used in some 3rd party docs, like the fdl
<trappist> or maybe it was the gpl I saw it in
<mdke> trappist, talking of the fdl, did you see that it now gets subsections in the document indexes? (http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/desktopguide/C/index.html)
<rob> so, docwiki is a tad rough around the edges.. heck I had to fix some of their C up just so it would work
<mdke> trappist, what do you think about removing the <section> tags so that doesn't happen?
<mdke> heya rob
<rob> hi mdke 
<mdke> happy easter everyone
<rob> I've been investigating several web-based solutions to allow people to contribute just using a browser.. a few promising projects but so far all of them need quite a bit of work
<rob> happy easter mdke 
<mdke> rob, that's unsurprising :) 
<rob> yeah :)
<mdke> i mean, if there isn't even a good wysiwyg editor for docbook xml, there is unlikely to be a web based extension for one
<rob> doing a lot of research before I roll my own
<rob> there are several good conversion tools and I've picked up a lot of good ideas from several projects, but none have been suitable thus far for what we do
<rob> http://doc-book.sourceforge.net/homepage/
<mdke> if you're interested in contributing code, may contributing the the moin xml generation thing would be an idea
<mdke> may/maybe
<rob> that one was the most promising, but a lot of dependencies, a few major security issues and very rough around the edges
<rob> I'm having a look at the moin xml thing now :)
* mdke goes for breakfast
<rob> what version of moin is Ubuntu running on the wiki?
<rob> hmm.. 
* rob is about to start his second apache install/setup in the last week
<mdke> rob, SystemInfo tells you the version of stuff
<rob> mdke, cool
<jenda> rob - I have a person who wants a channel dropped - could I let them grab hold of you now?
<rob> jenda, sure
<jenda> You don't speak french, by any chance?
<rob> no.. but I can probably manage
<jenda> OK - I think he can manage english. It's teh #et channel.
<LaserJock> Hi everybody, Happy Easter!
#ubuntu-doc 2006-04-22
<Burgundavia> salut all
<robotgeek> salut
<Madpilot> hi all
<trappist> mdke: re: the fdl... I dunno if it's been changed since I replaced it with the one from gnu.org, but it seems to work really well as-is, and I'd be happy to leave it alone
<mdke> trappist, yeah, it looks ok, but it is a bit awkward on tables of contents, don't you think? I suppose we could avoid it by having level one tables of contents, but still.
<trappist> I haven't looked at it from that point of view.  but now that I think of it, that doc is pretty stable (at least on gnu.org) so I guess it shouldn't be a big deal to maintain any changes we make.
* mdke nods
<mdke> trappist, check out http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/desktopguide/C/index.html
<trappist> oh.  yeah, I see what you mean :)
* mdke goes home
<Burgwork> hmm, appears I got a bit of publicity in distrowatc
<Burgwork> http://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20060417#1
<LaserJock> hmm, interesting :-)
<Burgwork> the name was changed a while back
<LaserJock> I always wondered why ubuntulinux.org existed. It really confused me when I first started looking at Ubuntu
<carthik> Hi, are you guys responsible for the "Examples" on my desktop?
<carthik> :)
<LaserJock> hmm, I don't think so  exactly
<carthik> LaserJock, how would I notify the creators of those documents of spellos, typos, incorrectly displayed texts (due to font problems) etc?
<LaserJock> umm, I think file a bug
<carthik> LaserJock, alright. Thanks.
<LaserJock> carthik: there are also a few Example Content wiki pages too
<carthik> LaserJock, cool.
<mgalvin> so i was thinking of making the Dapper Beta Tour be more comprehensive and cover all new features up to this point(as opposed to the flights which cover incremental improvements) since it will probably get wider exposure
<mgalvin> an additional benifit is that the beta tour could largely be used to much of the release notes content
<mgalvin> opinions?
<Burgwork> mgalvin, I like that idea
<mgalvin> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DapperBeta
<mgalvin> cool
<Burgwork> mgalvin, have you seen /Website/Desktop?
<mgalvin> Burgwork: i looked at it briefly, it looks good... a great high level overview of major features/benefits
<Burgwork> when I get the ability/figure out how to do it
<Burgwork> I want to move it to teh webiset, but as ACL:all, to test for a day or two
<mgalvin> move to the website +1
<mgalvin> ACL:all... good luck getting the admins to allow that ;)
<Burgwork> whatever it is that hides it on the main site
<Burgwork> but it appears that lowly editors cannot set acls
#ubuntu-doc 2006-04-23
<crimsun> LaserJock: is the dapper doc branch in sync w/ trunk currently?
<LaserJock> no
<crimsun> so I should be working from dapper's branch, I presume?
<LaserJock> crimsun: for what?
<crimsun> for anything in doc
<mdke> crimsun, for anything dapper+1, we will work in the trunk
<mdke> it may be that some maintainers haven't merged all their changes to trunk yet
<LaserJock> crimsun: well, if you want it to go into Dapper, yes. But we are at the doc string freeze
<mdke> if so, and you want to work on something, bug them about it
<LaserJock> crimsun: I'm pretty sure the Packaging Guide is synced
<crimsun> LaserJock: I generally do two passes per edit with a week or so separating each pass
<LaserJock> crimsun: the packaging guide in the dapper branch and trunk are the same currently
<Madpilot> hi Burgundavia 
<Burgundavia> salut Madpilot
* Madpilot is wondering whying why the heck he volunteered as an #ubuntu op... ;P
<Burgundavia> indeed
<Burgundavia> Madpilot: pyweek just finished, and the entries were all about steam. Some are very cool little games: pyweek.org
<Burgundavia> Madpilot: this one looks like fun -->  http://www.pyweek.org/e/Pekuja/
<buttfukc> ompaul likes it up the butt
<jsgotangco> hmmm does an appendix come before or after a glossary?
<jjesse_> wouldn't it come before?
<jsgotangco> i dont remember lol
* jsgotangco looks for a dead tree copy
<jjesse_> grin i don't either
<jjesse_> just asked my wife who is an editor: the appendix comes first befuase there might be the need for something in the appendix to be glossaried
<jjesse_> if that makes sense
<jsgotangco> lol the first book i grabbed had the title "what to expect on the first year of childhood"
<jsgotangco> hmmm
<jsgotangco> makes sense
<jjesse_> that book is the follow up for what to expect when you are expecting :)
<jsgotangco> no we didnt get that book since everything was unexpected lol
<jsgotangco> jjesse, can you ask if the appendix and the annex are the same?
<jjesse> jsgotangco: sure can
<jjesse> grin that's funny
<jjesse> a new book, what to expect when you are not expecting :)
<jjesse> For all practical purposes, yes I think so. We have customers request that they be called "Annexes" rather than "Appendices" sometimes. But it should be consistent throughout the book, whatever word is chosen.
<jsgotangco> ahhh
<jsgotangco> docbook only has appendix
<jsgotangco> thanks
<jsgotangco> ok time for the horrifying part: docbook tables
<jsgotangco> urgghh
* jsgotangco thinks he shouldn't be stubborn anymore and just do this work in oxygen
* ompaul emails jsgotangco lots of oxygen
<Burgwork> mgalvin, for the bootchart, it might be nice if you could have a comparison chart
<Burgwork> a two bar chart with boot time for breezy and dapper
<mgalvin> yea, i just don't have a breezy box atm :(
<mgalvin> i will try and do that if i have time
<Burgwork> mgalvin, grab a number off the BootCharting page
<Burgwork> doesn't have to be too accurate, just give a basic idea
<Burgwork> in fact, better if it was less exact
<mgalvin> yup ;) i will use those...
<mgalvin> i you want/have time to help out, you can add it if you like... i am trying to do the xubuntu and edubuntu tours too so any help is very welcome :)
<Burgwork> I might have some time tonight
<mgalvin> k cool
<KaiL> so here is the right place for comments about the DapperBeta-Page
<KaiL> ?
<robotgeek> KaiL: hmm, go ahead
<mdke_> yes, although emailing is a much better way
<robotgeek> mgalvin maintains it, i belive
<KaiL> the biggest first: this morning nerw icons landet in dapper - so more or less all screenshots need to be refreshed ;)
<jjesse> yes mgalvin is working on it
<mgalvin> KaiL: i am working on it now :)
<mgalvin> i have to retake all the screenshot
<mdke_> poor guy
<mgalvin> i do that last
<KaiL> especially the menu shots, as they look like in breezy times
<mdke_> the second the page goes up, it is supposed to be up to date
<mgalvin> it will be all done by the time the beta is released on thursday
<KaiL> xchat-gnome got removed from the default install
<KaiL> same for network-manager
<KaiL> and positive ideas: bluetooth? ekiga?
<mdke_> KaiL, dude. he is working on it. The page will be up to date when it is transferred to the website. Perhaps check back tomorrow?
<mdke_> grrr
<jjesse> however it is more up to date then KubuntuDapperBeta which i'm working on :)
<mgalvin> ekiga is just part of gnome and not really used by many people so that is why i am not mentioning it on the beta tour for now
* mdke hugs jjesse 
<mdke> ekiga is pretty cool tho... loads of people use skype, and this is a free alternative, right?
<mgalvin> yea, i had talked about it on flight 4 tour
<mgalvin> i can just copy it over, no biggie to me
<mdke> I think that would be nice
<mgalvin> k, i'll add it
<mgalvin> added ekiga
<jjesse> release notes stilll in trunk or in branch?
<jjesse> or both
<mdke> jjesse, make changes in the branch, and merge back, if you want
<mdke> LaserJock, any luck with the xreflabel issues?
* robotgeek needs to fix too
<mdke> robotgeek, do you always use xrefs like this? "see <xref linkend="blah"/>"
<robotgeek> mdke: since i was/am new to docbook, i used the convention that the udg followed
<mdke> robotgeek, so yes :)
<robotgeek> heh
<mdke> good, should be simple to remove em then
* robotgeek thinks it should go into DocbookTags page
<mdke> we'll need it in the styleguide, I think
<mdke> robotgeek, can you check the tip in the KDG about changing the default program to open files with? A translator has suggested that it doesn't work
<robotgeek> hmm, moment
<robotgeek> there is no open with tab <sigh>
<jjesse> did they file a bug on it?
<robotgeek> jjesse: also, seems like a kubuntu bug. i change the default "open with" application, from amarok to mp3, doublie click still opens up amarok
<jjesse> hrmmm :(
<jjesse> file a bug on it then i gues s:(
* robotgeek double checks
<jjesse> i have open with 
<robotgeek> hmm, i wonder why i don't have open with
<jjesse> it works for me
<robotgeek> at this point, i am beginning to suspect taht my kde i foobared
<robotgeek> is fubared
<jjesse> i tried to change the default for an mp3 to kaffiene and then changed it to amarok which worked both ways
<mdke> odd
<robotgeek> yay
<robotgeek> i overwrote a few configs earlier this week, i think i can't trust my system anymore
<mdke> lemme read the mail from the translator
<mdke> ok, it's more detailed
<jjesse> pastebin it??
<mdke> i have to translate it :)
<mdke> robotgeek, he says that you right click, then open with, then a drop down menu, then "Other"
<mdke> sorry, right click, then properties, then open with
<robotgeek> yeah, that the way it appears on my menu
<mdke> oh shit, I've got totally muddles
<mdke> that's what the _guide_ says
<robotgeek> <right click> -> Open with -> other
<robotgeek> that's what i have on my system
<jjesse> i did right click open with and selected other then set as default action
<mdke> right
<robotgeek> needs to be fixed in the guide then
<mdke> and the guide says "right click -> properties
<robotgeek> i swear, we had a tab there before :)
<mdke> i think it is a recent change, from what he seems to be saying
<robotgeek> i couldn't have written wrong instructions in such detail
<mdke> heh
<robotgeek> okay, will fix. 
<robotgeek> mdke: cause i am uploading a change, can i also make another change?
* robotgeek waits for uvf from mdke 
<mdke> heh
<mdke> what's the change?
<mdke> bear in mind that translating a long paragraph can take quite some time, so if it's a long one, try and avoid it
<robotgeek> i like the fonts section in udg vs kdg, same content
<robotgeek> http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/desktopguide/C/desktop-tips.html#fonts http://doc.ubuntu.com/kubuntu/desktopguide/C/ch05s01.html#fonts
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> go on then
<robotgeek> kk
<robotgeek> mdke: what's command to update translations again?
<mdke> robotgeek, xml2po -e -o desktopguide.pot C/*.xml
<mdke> robotgeek, svn diff desktopguide.pot just to check
<robotgeek> crap, i think i messed something up
<robotgeek> i committed before checking the translations
<robotgeek> mdke: okay, i think the desktopguide.pot is not present previously, updating
<mdke> robotgeek, sorry?
<robotgeek> mdke: i commited it, can you check if it works (in other words,  if i  did not screw up)
<mdke> robotgeek, you did it in trunk
<mdke> robotgeek, that's why desktopguide.pot wasn't there ;)
<robotgeek> i was supposed to do it in branches, <it all comes back to me now>
* robotgeek goes and reads mailining list
<robotgeek> mdke: commited, i don't see the dapper branch in ubuntu-doc, might be worth using svn:externals to pull it in
<mdke> ???
<mdke> robotgeek, sorry, what's the matter? svn:externals are certainly not necessary
<robotgeek> mdke: i think i am going blind, is there a dapper branch in the ubuntu-doc tree itself?
<mdke> robotgeek, branches/dapper
<robotgeek> i don't see it, weird
<mdke> https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/branches/dapper
<robotgeek> no, i meant when we checkout stuff. i have this now, though
<mdke> perhaps you are just checking out trunk?
<robotgeek> yeah, i guess i will checkout everything. might have been too clever earlier
<mdke> that's quite a lot of changes in the pot file, I need to have a closer look
<robotgeek> i htink it's mostly due to changes in line numbers
<mdke> yes, maybe
<mdke> ok, line number changes are fine
<mdke> robotgeek, thanks
<mdke> i'll ping riddell for an upload
<robotgeek> mdke: sorry for confusion
<LaserJock> mdke: sorry, been really busy at work and home. I'm checking now
<mdke> LaserJock, np, plenty of time. Was just curious
<LaserJock> heh, I didn't know that grad school was just a long series of meetings when I started ;-)
<trappist> grad school sounds like cake
<trappist> prolly have to get a degree first though, huh
<mdke> staying in university for as long as possible is definitely the way forward
<LaserJock> argghh, mdke don't say that
<LaserJock> I'm finishing my 8th straight year
<LaserJock> and I'm tired
<mdke> heh, i was tired after my masters
<trappist> I was tired after two weeks
<mdke> now I miss it, grass is always greener
<trappist> tired and too injured to drive to school
<LaserJock> sure, I know I'll miss it
<mdke> it's cushy, all I did was play with linux
<LaserJock> but I'd like to get a "real" job
<mdke> hardly learnt any law
<LaserJock> heh, that's my current problem
<LaserJock> I'm never going to get out at this rate, and my wife is going to kill me if I don't (she's done already)
<mdke> heh
#ubuntu-doc 2007-04-16
<ubotu> New bug: #106883 in kubuntu-docs (main) "Kubuntu-docs: Faulty string (#25) in office" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/106883
<Admiral_Chicago> nixternal: Bug #106883
<ubotu> Malone bug 106883 in kubuntu-docs "Kubuntu-docs: Faulty string (#25) in office" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/106883
<Admiral_Chicago> I made a patch and all you need to do is apply it
<Admiral_Chicago> bbiab
<CIA-7> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal * r4117 kubuntu/office/C/office.xml: closes 106883
<Burgundavia> nixternal: you actually around?
<nixternal> ya
<nixternal> who is this helios cat?
<nixternal> tux500
<nixternal> the bastard sent me an email that would cause me to f'n kill him if I ever met him
<crimsun> dear nixternal, plz2install Vista on my toaster kthxbye
<nixternal> haha
<nixternal> tux500. what a joke!
<Burgundavia> oh?
<Burgundavia> nixternal: if I write an ubuntu magazine fridge story, can you approve it?
<nixternal> yup
<Admiral_Chicago> does someone have a link to documentation trunk
<Admiral_Chicago> specifically, what command do I need to get the trunk on my system
<Admiral_Chicago> svn checkout https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/trunk/
<Admiral_Chicago> is that correct?
<ubotu> New bug: #50856 in Baltix (main) "boot help text about existing swap clarification" [Undecided,Rejected]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/50856
<CIA-7> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal feisty * r4118 /kubuntu/firefox-startpage/ (9 files): dunno how these got changed
<CIA-7> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal feisty * r4119 /kubuntu/ (18 files in 18 dirs): remove lang from lang to get makefile working
<CIA-7> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal feisty * r4120 /kubuntu/debian/rules: cleaned up rules
<ubotu> New bug: #107062 in kubuntu-docs (main) "Linux.org is hurting Linux; don't recommend it" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/107062
<Jordan_U> I am logged in to wiki.ubuntu.com and I am trying to make a page like https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WifiDocs/Driver/bcm43xx/Edgy but for Feisty ( https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WifiDocs/Driver/bcm43xx/Feisty ) but I get an error that I can not edit this page ( which does not exist ). Could someone create this page or tell me how to do it myself?
#ubuntu-doc 2007-04-17
<moowiz2020> hello?
<jjesse> hello
<moowiz2020> hi
<moowiz2020> does anyone here think that the doc team should have another meeting?
<nixternal> moowiz2020: in the past year I think there was one meeting
<flaccid> hey guys
<nixternal> oi flaccid
<flaccid> yes
<flaccid> nixternal: ?
<nixternal> just sayin' hi
<CIA-7> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal * r4121 /trunk/ (5 files in 4 dirs): spring cleaning - don't worry, unused is in branch if we need it - makefile will build - converted release name, version, and date
<flaccid> hehe hi there
<flaccid> anyone see my mail on the mailing list?
<Annn0nym0us> does anyone ever talk in here?
<Madpilot> No.
<Annn0nym0us> k
<Annn0nym0us> just checking
<Madpilot> it's been quiet lately, but there really is activity here aside from the bot sometimes.
<Annn0nym0us> ok
<Annn0nym0us> Madpilot, why are there people in here if no one talks at all?
<Madpilot> we lurk
* tonyyarusso moos
<flaccid> id like to talk about the lack of a handbook
<flaccid> too many doco resources
<flaccid> disadvantages of community based w/ too many cooks in the kitchen
<nixternal> lurking is fun
<nixternal> we talk during the dev cycle in here big time
<nixternal> we are finished, taking a break, enjoying life
<nixternal> for about 3 more months, thenn all hell will break loose once more
<Admiral_Chicago> seriously
<Admiral_Chicago> nothing more than a few odd bugs a couple times a week
<flaccid> nobody would like to discuss my topic?
<nixternal> didn't you post to the ML?
<nixternal> I think I already answered it
<nixternal> nobody reads them
<nixternal> topic based is the way of the future
<nixternal> GNOME and KDE are both migrating there now as we speak
<flaccid> i disagree
<flaccid> topic based allows for many entries on the same topic
<flaccid> not exactly a concise way
<flaccid> an official wiki with many user's opinions on how to do something
<nixternal> topic based makes it easier to pinpoint an answer
<nixternal> the handbook is find for a webpage, but not for a shipped document
<nixternal> s/find/fine
<flaccid> topic based with a wiki makes it harder to find. you have to search.
<flaccid> and then go through all the results to find one that works
<flaccid> have a look at the freebsd handbook. everything you need is in the TOC
<flaccid> i also don't know what you mean by topic based. a handbook with TOC is topic based
<flaccid> i dont know what you mean that its not ok for a shipped document other OSs/distros go well
<nixternal> well those will eventually change with the topic based help systems that KDE and GNOME are working on
<flaccid> what are these topic based systems? can you show me?
<nixternal> I wonder if the FreeBSD handbook could be anymore cluttered
<nixternal> I forgot what the GNOME one is called, but there is a spec and implementation detail at freedesktop.org
<nixternal> KHelpCenter will change with the strigi implementation
<flaccid> well freebsd has different kinds of users to ubuntu, so i can understand why some interpret it as cluttered
<nixternal> I have been using FreeBSD for a long time and this is a first that I have really looked at it
<flaccid> can you provide me any links to check it out, or is it just a pipe dream atm?
<flaccid> thats weird because the handbook is like a bible to most freebsd users
<nixternal> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TopicBasedHelp
<nixternal> if you follow some of the links in there you will find more info nt he topic based help
<nixternal> also you have to remember that Ubuntu is focusing on accessibility and surveys and field studies have shown that topic based is better for the majority of the users
<nixternal> topic based help still has all of the info that the desktop guide had, just structured better
<nixternal> http://www.gnome.org/~shaunm/quack/mallard.xml
<nixternal> that is the gnome project, dunno if they have updated that page in a while
<flaccid> well i am a main helper in #kubuntu and its a mess
<nixternal> but last I heard it is no longer vaporware
<nixternal> what is a mess?
<nixternal> how hard is it for a user to hit "Kubuntu System Documentation" in KHelpCenter?
<nixternal> there they pick the topic they are looking for
<nixternal> if it isn't there, there are links to other locations to search
<flaccid> is this in existance yet?
<nixternal> seeing as I did the entire Kubuntu setup which was aided by KDE usability developers
<nixternal> flaccid: in Feisty yes
<flaccid> right
<flaccid> well nobody knows about it..
<flaccid> how do i do it
<nixternal> it is in KHelpCenter, just like the old dekstop guide was
<nixternal> the only difference you will see is the index layout
* flaccid goes to test
<flaccid> seems like application manuals are missing
<nixternal> for what?
<flaccid> for KHelpCenter
<nixternal> they are here for me
<flaccid> it says index creation finished, yet it failed
<nixternal> sounds like you have boog
<nixternal> don't use the search feature
<flaccid> and the index doesn't look very easy to navigate anyway
<nixternal> it is supposed to use htdig, but since that is a security nightmare, we don't have it implemented
<nixternal> KHelpCenter and the index is KDE
<nixternal> the one link up top for Kubuntu documents
<nixternal> that is us
<nixternal> KHelpCenter will be rewritten for KDE 4
<flaccid> this thing is pretty much a guide or handbook anyway
<flaccid> cept its offline
<nixternal> if someone can navigate the internet, then they can navigate KHelpCenter
<flaccid> the internet is not an easy thing to navigate
<nixternal> granted I don't think most people care to read about kioslaves ;)
<flaccid> well the TOC needs to be logical
<nixternal> which one?
<flaccid> any
<nixternal> did you take a look at the Kubuntu System Documenation?
<flaccid> so kubuntu 7.04 system documentation is basically what i wanted
<nixternal> yup
<flaccid> right im' glade we got to at least that point
<nixternal> it has been there since Warty :)
<flaccid> now let me find the issues with this :p
<flaccid> and the community has never known....
<nixternal> oh, there are plenty of issues
<nixternal> like modems, wifi, and binary blobs
<nixternal> I refuse to document that information because 1) it isn't free, and 2) it is all over the wiki and the internet
<flaccid> is there any reason why you didn't suggest in your reply email for me to add to this doco ?
<nixternal> well there is no more adding to Fesity docs, what you see is what you get until October 2007
<flaccid> like vnc can just go in networking section..
<mpt> nixternal, no use it being all over the wiki and the Internet if people can't get on the Internet in the first place :-)
<nixternal> mpt: you realize it would take us a year to document modems
<nixternal> I spoke to the linmodems people and they said point to us, don't waste your time documenting it
<nixternal> there are over 5000 pages for modem installation (winmodems)
<nixternal> alone
<flaccid> so can i just create some new docs go in there for next release?
<nixternal> feel free to write something up, yes
<nixternal> but there is of course no guarantee
<nixternal> probably wiki-fy it first
<flaccid> is this offline doco system going to be accessible online?
<nixternal> also remember that with the topic based system, we went with the most frequent issues or help topics people searched for
<nixternal> flaccid: already is
<nixternal> http://doc.ubuntu.com
<nixternal> it will eventually make its way to https://help.ubuntu.com under the 7.04 tab
<flaccid> is it possible to provide someone with an offline link?
<nixternal> help:/
<nixternal> help:/kubuntu/office
<flaccid> The requested URL /kubuntu/C/index.html was not found on this server.
<nixternal> they can type that in Konqui, or if they want they can setup firefox to to do help:/ links, which is under help:/kubuntu/internet I believe
<nixternal> or maybe help:/kubuntu/getting-help
<flaccid> interesting
<flaccid> help:/kubuntu/ There is no documentation available for /kubuntu/index.html.
<flaccid> and how to get the link of the offline page to give to someone?
<nixternal> right click the link in KHelpCenter and copy it or in Konqueror you can get he help index by going to help:/kubuntu/sysdocs-index
<nixternal> which I am glad you just did the help:/kubuntu
<nixternal> I will do something different for 7.10
<flaccid> can't work out how to get link of current page
<flaccid> ie. no link
<flaccid> and http://doc.ubuntu.com/kubuntu/
<nixternal> that is the staging server
<flaccid> so its not live yet?
<nixternal> ya, probably no docs there yet since I just set that up today
<flaccid> ok
<nixternal> live will be located on help.ubuntu.com
<nixternal> doc.ubuntu.com is a great way to follow development
<flaccid> and the docs will be for free stuff only?
<flaccid> ie. no doc for non-free like mp3 - that would be on the wiki?
<nixternal> flaccid: there is mp3 stuff in there that carried over from the old docs
<nixternal> when I say non free I mean like NVidia and ATI
<nixternal> that is another documenting nightmare
<flaccid> hmm ok
<flaccid> there is a lot of nightmares
<nixternal> yup, and the wiki makes them worse, and so does the internet, but I am pointing them to it
<nixternal> NVidia and ATI documenation on our wiki is so bad I don't even look at it
<flaccid> hmm
<flaccid> at this point im thinking what i want excludes a lot of things you guys dont want
<nixternal> and I have gone through in the past and fixed it just to have some moron go back and change it just because it works "that way" for his card
<nixternal> exclude like what?
<flaccid> yeah this another reason why i dislike wikis
<nixternal> I want to build on what is already there
<flaccid> things like non-free and video
<nixternal> seeing as Gusty (7.10) is going to be about free, I would have to rethink it
<nixternal> just because I don't support it and I won't document it, doesn't mean that you can't :)
<nixternal> plus, 7.10 is going to be the last of KDE 3.5.x, so all of the documentation will be rewritten for gusty+1
<flaccid> hmm
<flaccid> at this point im thinking of making my own complete handbook and make the information free to share. we just don't have the same direction and requirements
<nixternal> you of course are free to do that
<nixternal> although reinventing the wheel is never the best thing to do
<flaccid> this is not reinventing the wheel, because the wheel does not exist
<nixternal> you can't go by personal direction in a community project either, it is tough to do
<nixternal> just ask mdke and mpt about how much jjesse and I argued about how silly topic based help was :)
<flaccid> i know, but nobody has made what i want to make
<nixternal> oh the wheel exists, it is just in 404382084 locations
<flaccid> hehe yes exactly my point
<flaccid> options is not a good thing. 1 reliable solution for a problem is.
<nixternal> we are supposed to be looking into a single help portal as well in the near future from what I have been told, so that should be interesting
<nixternal> 1 reliable solution for Linux is damn near impossible
<nixternal> look at the Linux documentation project, they can't even get it all
<nixternal> and by the time you have it, it has changed once or twice
<nixternal> plus our system documentation is geared more towards someone who is newer to the Linux world
<nixternal> someone that knows how to search a wiki or the internet never hits the help button anyways
<nixternal> alrighty, my pillow just hollored my name ;)
<nixternal> flaccid: I would love to work with ya for 7.10 on documentation if you are up to it
<nixternal> come up with a proposal like thing and we can see what we can do
<flaccid> yeah im still thinking about my approach
<flaccid> but i believe that myself can write a good handbook
<flaccid> thing is i know that if someone else works on it as well or the community does, it won't work
<nixternal> flaccid: that isn't the right mindset for free and open source development. it isn't about 1, it is about the community
<nixternal> every document you read pretty much had community involvement
<nixternal> oh well, the pillow is yellng my name again
<nixternal> g'nite
<flaccid> well the community won't stick to the goals of this and i don't have faith in the community to be able to accomplish it, i also don't have time to moderate this kind of project
<flaccid> this would be 1 of those nightmares
<flaccid> and this isn't development its documenation
<flaccid> :)
<Burgundavia> flaccid: I have no idea who you are and I have to say, I don't really like your attitude
<flaccid> everyone is entitled to their opinion
<Burgundavia> however, I missed the first part of your statement
<flaccid> its about management, Burgundavia
<Burgundavia> what exactly were you trying to say?
<flaccid> im trying to say projects are not simple to manage to ensure their goals are met
<Madpilot> ...and this is news how, exactly?
<Burgundavia> this is not a terribly shocking finding
<flaccid> just quality control itself is a lot of time and process
<Burgundavia> Madpilot: hmm, we think alike. Are we related? :)
<flaccid> i never said it was new
<flaccid> i am just saying how it relates to what i want to do
<Burgundavia> right
<Burgundavia> and what exactly do you want to do?
<flaccid> write a handbook for kubuntu with a closed UoD
<Madpilot> Burgundavia, you missed the best bit just before you joined here: "<flaccid> thing is i know that if someone else works on it as well or the community does, it won't work"
<Burgundavia> again, not terribly shocking
<flaccid> i don't really care what you think
<Burgundavia> fine
<flaccid> i am just stating my opinion. this is freenode last time i checked
<Burgundavia> that you can
<Burgundavia> but I am wondering what your point was
<flaccid> like i said management
<flaccid> i don't have time to manage a project
<Burgundavia> right
<flaccid> i need to make sure it doesn't get out of control
<Burgundavia> which, this project?
<flaccid> so its easier to do it myself and then share that with the community then it is to collab with the community..
<flaccid> well there is no project
<Burgundavia> are you talking about this Ubuntu Documentation Team?
<flaccid> no
<flaccid> i think you missed my conversation from early.
<Burgundavia> what was that about?
<flaccid> eh im not repeating myself sorry
<Burgundavia> ok
<Madpilot> Burgundavia, the shortcomings of current user docs, and how a single-handed project will provide far better docs. Or something similar.
<Burgundavia> Madpilot: umm, ok
<flaccid> no that is incorrect Madpilot
<Burgundavia> ah, the great consistency argument
<flaccid> well yes consistency is lost with lots of cooks in the kitchen all doing their own thing
<Burgundavia> you have never managed any volunteer projects before, have you?
<flaccid> yes i have, but like i said i don't have the time with this one
<flaccid> and me and the doc project have different direction
<Burgundavia> hmm, heard that one before
<Burgundavia> Madpilot: I think it was I who said it
<Burgundavia> and I am still here
<Burgundavia> hey willvdl, long time no chat
<willvdl> Burgundavia, indeed
<willvdl> I've been on a long leave in S.America
<Burgundavia> ahh
<Burgundavia> you still working for Canonical?
<willvdl> yip
<willvdl> coming to UDS?
<Burgundavia> thanks to your employer, yep
<flaccid> because what i want is different from what this project is doing, i think i will do my fork. thanks for the chat.
<Burgundavia> flaccid: have fun
<Madpilot> flaccid, have a forking good time.
<flaccid> i surely will, you might thank me one day
<willvdl> Burgundavia, great. UES as well?
<Burgundavia> sadly no
<willvdl> pity, I could do with some marketing/doc folks
<Burgundavia> convince your employer :)
<flaccid> haha, never say never, especially when flaccid is involved!
<Burgundavia> my Edubuntu work has been very limited
<Burgundavia> wow, he must have been high
<Madpilot> "This is your brain. This is your brain on docs. Any questions?"
<willvdl> nope. maybe that's the point...
<Burgundavia> you missed the fun part
<Burgundavia> I mostly did too
<Madpilot> night all
<mpt> Wow, harshness
<Burgundavia> hey mpt
<mpt> hi Burgundavia
<mpt> I don't think "too many docs" is a problem
<Burgundavia> unless they are bad docs, no
<mpt> yes, depending on what "bad" means
<Burgundavia> misleading
<Burgundavia> did you see that techalign/pioneerlinux is now promoting and funding automatix?
<mpt> Never heard of either of them
<Burgundavia> they do a version of kubuntu
<mpt> Let the lawsuits begin!
<mpt> Actually I've never seen Automatix before, I'm just giggling at the screenshot in <https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Automatix>
<mpt> It really has a toolbar with only one button, and a set of tabs with only one tab?
<Burgundavia> possibly
<ubotu> New bug: #106594 in xubuntu-docs "Xubuntu Desktop have examples files that shouldnt be there" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/106594
<jono> hey
<jono> mdke: ping
<mdke> jono: (In case I'm not around at the moment, please provide a bit of information about what you want and I will respond when I get back)
<jono> any core docs people here?
<bdmurray> the copyright in the kubuntu hanbook at least doesn't have 2007
<shirish> hi all, I have couple of questions about the wiki if somebody can respond?
<shirish> It's to do with how the wiki is written, there are no time-stamps so its difficult to know when somebody wrote something
<nixternal> jono: what's up?
<nixternal> 10:26:02 [      jono]  any core docs people here?
#ubuntu-doc 2007-04-18
<MehdiHassanpour> I'm lookin for the GFDL vs CC discussions on ubuntu or debian lists. any one can help me with some URLs?
<Burgundavia> MehdiHassanpour: what specifics? the free-ness? the choice between them
<Burgundavia> ?
<MehdiHassanpour> Burgundavia: everything
<MehdiHassanpour> I would like to know why should we choose CC over GFDL
<MehdiHassanpour> while many software packages in ubuntu are GPL'ed
<Burgundavia> cc has more acceptance and is a more modern license
<Burgundavia> there are far more cc documents than gfdl
<Burgundavia> and gdfl != gpl
<MehdiHassanpour> but GFDL is written by the FSF, they update it and care for the bugs if it has
<Burgundavia> gfdl has not been updated for ages
<Burgundavia> and has series freeness issues
<Burgundavia> as where as CC licenses get updated frequently
<Burgundavia> basically, gfdl is a crap license
<MehdiHassanpour> I know, I would like to talk about this in our loco meeting and need more details, if possible...
<Admiral_Chicago> gfdl was updated very recently afaik
<Admiral_Chicago> ah no...
<Admiral_Chicago> wel lits too late for me to argue licensing, don't care about that discussion really
<mc44> I was just wondering if feisty upgrades document could have the bit about needed the latest update manager in it (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FeistyKnownIssues)
<mc44> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/FeistyUpgrades
<ubotu> New bug: #107437 in ubuntu-doc "Feisty Upgrades document" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/107437
<nixternal> Admiral_Chicago: GFDL will be updated after the GPLv3 comes out, remember my question to Peter Brown?
<nixternal> GFDL is like 10 years old, and it is actually restrictive, to a point that Debian declared the emacs documentation non-free
<Admiral_Chicago> nixternal: yea, I remember the question, i thought the answer was that it got updated recently
#ubuntu-doc 2007-04-19
<BobSongs> Good evening (well, it's night time here in Canada).
<Madpilot> evening
<BobSongs> I was cleaning up my computer station when I noticed a pile of Microsoft Quick Start guides. I was ready to toss them in the trash (seeing I have little need for MSFT Quick Start guides) when a thought hit me.
<BobSongs> What if I took the time to create an Ubuntu Quick Start guide? I know there's documentation out there for Ubuntu. But what about a guide that followed roughly what MSFT has designed for new users?
<BobSongs> Would such a thing be considered one too many among a set of already established tomes? Or does this sound like it might fill a need?
<BobSongs> These Quick Start guides are the type you'd find in an OEM box, one that contains a setup CD and a thicker manual on how to run Windows, for example.
<Madpilot> would this be designed for print, or as an onscreen doc?
<BobSongs> I am truly torn between the two. I guess I could put a rough draft together and submit it as a PDF file.
<BobSongs> The format is not 8 1/2 x 11. It's about half that size. It makes an ideal booklet.
<Madpilot> get a basic proposal/outline together, and fire it off to the docteam mailing list
<BobSongs> Excellent.
<BobSongs> I was looking at it and thought it might be a good idea.
<BobSongs> I kinda got a bit excited (as I am the excitable type) and did a cover for it in Inkscape. I wanted it to faintly resemble the Windows XP Pro Quick Start guide ... without being a complete rip off.
<Madpilot> got the image up on the web somewhere?
<BobSongs> Ooo. I should, eh? Lemme get that done. It'll take about 5 minutes. Cool?
<BobSongs> I'll stay connected here and get that done immediately.
<BobSongs> http://ubuntulinux.50webs.com/FrontCover.png
<BobSongs> :-)
<BobSongs> Done.
<BobSongs> It's not an amazing resolution. But you get the drift.
<BobSongs> While I have become less and less a fan of Microsoft I must admit their manuals are nicely laid out. And while I do not wish to tread on copyright issues I still think a booklet that covers the same essentials they cover would not be a bad idea. A printed copy would be uber cool. But a supplied PDF file would be just as good.
<BobSongs> The text on the PNG file is not final. It's just a mock up for the black background.
<BobSongs> I was going for a kind of "Ubuntu Ultimate" look. ;-)
<Madpilot> black isn't really an Ubuntu colour
<Madpilot> I like the basic layout, but go with tan/brown/etc, or just white
<BobSongs> Is there a link where I can get the Hex colours?
<BobSongs> I don't want to approximate the necessary colours.
<BobSongs> :-)
<Madpilot> just a sec, there are palettes available on the official artwork page
<Madpilot> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Official
<BobSongs> Okay. Cool. I prefer to work with hex when it comes to colors.
<BobSongs> Thanks for the reference. I'll begin the outline and rough draft and submit it to the docteam mailing list.
<Madpilot> I did the covers for the printed Lulu-published versions of the Dapper docs. I'll package up the SVG files if you want something to work from.
<BobSongs> Excellent. Any references you've got I'll gladly take and work with.
<Madpilot> give me a few minutes to tar.gz everything.
<BobSongs> No problem.
<nixternal> http://www.nixternal.com/kwww/announcements/7.04-release.php
<nixternal> anyone up for proofing?
<nixternal> hiya mpt
<Madpilot> BobSongs, http://dev.wirelizard.ca/Lulu_Covers_SVG.tar.gz
<nixternal> LULU!!!
<BobSongs> Merci beaucoup as they say here in Montreal.
<nixternal> gracias as they say here in Chicago
<nixternal> haha
<BobSongs> Madpilot, I'll give the brown a try. Hope it looks good. I've got the palette in SVG format (yay!) so I'll continue to tweak the cover page.
<Madpilot> BobSongs, did you do that first draft in Inkscape?
<BobSongs> nixternal, Gracias in Chicago, eh? lol I guess Spanish is becoming very influential in the US.
<nixternal> at least here in Chicago it is
<BobSongs> Madpilot, Yep. I really like it since the 0.45 release.
<BobSongs> A big "thanks" to Google for the "Summer of Code" support. That resulted in blur added to the software. A very useful addition. In my opinion it bumps Inkscape up into 'professional' levels.
<BobSongs> Sorry: slightly off topic.
<BobSongs> However, I can always submit any graphics in SVG format.
<Madpilot> evening Burgundavia
<Burgundavia> hey Madpilot
<Burgundavia> need anything from Imperial Hobbies?\
<Madpilot> need, maybe. can afford, no. You doing NWLinuxFest via Vancouver, then?
<Burgundavia> no, going tomorrow for BCLA
<Madpilot> cool. have fun.
<nixternal> mdke: h.u.c needs the 7.04 tab, and the Edubuntu handbook :)
<shirish> can somebody help me in understanding https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpOnPageCreation
<nixternal> CONGRATULATIONS DocTeam! Great job this release, now it is time to start thinking how to one up Feisty with Gutsy!
<nixternal> shirish: I would love to, but I am late to the uni from all of my Feisty release partying!
<shirish> nixternal: I just need 2 minutes, thats all
<shirish> I just need to know how to add the wikiname
<nixternal> ok make it quick :)
<nixternal> oh
<nixternal> OK, say I want to make a wiki page called ShirishRocks
<shirish> I don't want to over-write anybody's page
<nixternal> I would do it like so
<nixternal> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ShirishRocks
<shirish> ok go on
<nixternal> if the page is not yet created, it will offer you with a link to create the page
<shirish> ah ok that's how u do it
<nixternal> so you really don't have to worry about writing over someone elses page
<nixternal> if you click that link I posted with ShirishRocks you will see the page and the link to create a new page
<shirish> that makes it easy, that should be actually added to the wiki mentioned, is it ok if I add that bit to it
<nixternal> sure, if it helps out feel free
<shirish> thnx for your time :)
<nixternal> no problem
<nixternal> time to go be bored in school ;)
<shirish> dang thats an immutable page, the help on creation
<nixternal> ah, ya I guess the help pages would be
<shirish> anyway, would drop that on the mailing list somebody might be able to do something about it
<shirish> thanx again :)
<nixternal> how important is using the '--xinclude' flag when building HTML now if we aren't using xi:includes at all in our docs now?
<nixternal> reason being, pbuilder seriously hates the '--xinclude' flag causing the build time for translated kubuntu-docs to go for 8 hours
<somerville32> When is the 7.04 desktop guide going to be published?
<nixternal> there is no desktop guide :)
#ubuntu-doc 2007-04-20
<jjesse> hey nixternal nice job on the documents and getting kudos from riddell :)
<jjesse> hopefully for gibbon i can be more active in the docs :)
<nixternal> gibbon docs are all yours ;)
<ryanakca> anybody have the power to update https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuHashes ?
* ryanakca looks hopefully at nixternal
<nixternal> huh
<nixternal> more than likely not
<nixternal> I don't have power to do anything
<ryanakca> kk, thanks anywais
<ryanakca> no?
<nixternal> I am checking
<nixternal> immutable page
<ryanakca> well, you write all the documentation, don't you?
<nixternal> that is why I leave that stupid wiki alone
<ryanakca> shucks... must be a canonical only page
<nixternal> not all, but some
<nixternal> I need ice cream
<ryanakca> you could just say "To restart your computer, go `rm -fr /`"... that's powerful enough, isn't it?
<ryanakca> and a good chunk of people would be gullible enough to believe it
<ryanakca> DISCLAIMER: `rm -fr /` does not restart your computer. It irreversibly erases all data under / . You are solely responsible if you execute that command.
* ryanakca passes nixternal a bucket of ice cream
<nixternal> mmm
<nixternal> lol
<ryanakca> :)
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-doc.log
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-doc.log
<kwah> hi all
<kwah> ops
<kwah> hi, feisty release and upgrade notes
<kwah> I guess they were initially in the wiki
<kwah> but now those pages are just redirects
<kwah> how can I get the final wiki page with layout etc, I want to translate it
<kwah> ???
<mpt> kwah, what was the address that redirected?
<mpt> I can find BreezyReleaseNotes, DapperReleaseNotes, EdgyReleaseNotes, but no FeistyReleaseNotes
<kwah> I actually more interested in Upgrade notes? just a moment
<kwah> mpt, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FeistyUpgrades?highlight=%28Feisty%29
<kwah> oops, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FeistyUpgrades :)
<mpt> ok
<mpt> Why do you want to translate that page instead of the one on the official Web site?
<mpt> ok, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FeistyUpgrades never contained anything except a redirect to help.ubuntu.com
<kwah> I just lazy :) I want to have the final layout of the page with all tags and stuff.
<kwah> and translate it in place
<kwah> I mean, just take as a source last version of FeistyUpgrades, copy it to say FeistyUpgradesRu
<kwah> in this way more then one person can do that, incrimentally
<mpt> Ah, so you're wanting to put it on another wiki
<mpt> kwah, here's the last version before people started trying to replace it with a redirect
<mpt> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/FeistyUpgrades?action=recall&rev=43
<mpt> If you want to copy the wiki markup, try https://help.ubuntu.com/community/FeistyUpgrades?action=raw&rev=43
<kwah> in fact in the same wiki, but translated. Thanks.
<mpt> In future, when you want to look at previous versions of a page that's been turned into a redirect, add "?action=info" to the end of the URL.
<kwah> Ok. Thanks mpt!
<mpt> you're welcome :-)
<kwah> by the way, was there any ideas on organizing translations etc.?
<kwah> *were
<kwah> I mean, currently, if I translate some page, I just create a new page like SomePage -> SomePageRU
<kwah> I was thinking about some automatic mechanism, that will indicate on the original wiki pages, about the available translations
<kwah> May be there are tools about which I just do not know? %)
<mpt> kwah, I know of no organized translation plan yet
<mpt> Though the Ubuntu Documentation Team have discussed it in the past
<kwah> ok. thanks.
<kwah> although, it is not really ok :(
<_voila> hello guys
<_voila> is there a document somewhere that details how to install and configure DNS on Edgy ?
<popey> a dns server?
<_voila> yes
<popey> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/BIND9ServerHowto
<_voila> thank you
<bodhi_zazen> Anyone here willing to take a suggestion for the upgrade to feisty wiki page ?
<bodhi_zazen> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/FeistyUpgrades
<popey> fire away
<bodhi_zazen> OK I wanted to give advice on how to do a fresh install an maintain all your currently installed applications
<bodhi_zazen> like in this thread : http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?&p=2473864#post2473864
<bodhi_zazen> I am thinking of adding some advice here : https://help.ubuntu.com/community/FeistyUpgradesFreshInstall
<bodhi_zazen> but I can not create a new page
<ubotu> New bug: #108083 in ubuntu-docs (main) "The default firefox start page doesn't link to ubuntu.com" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/108083
<bodhi_zazen> OK I made a page here: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/FeistyUpgradesFreshInstall#preview
<bodhi_zazen> any thoughts to improvements or linking it here : https://help.ubuntu.com/community/FeistyUpgrades
<mdke> nixternal: yes, I'm not sure what to do about help.ubuntu.com. No one really replied to the thread I started asking for ideas, and I haven't had any
<shwag> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/MacBook?action=info
<shwag> how do I contact a editor with a question ?
<mdke> shwag: if you can find their email address, then email them
<shwag> that part is rather obvious.
<shwag> where is their email though ?
<mdke> in theory, you click on their name and get it from their homepage. None of those editors have homepages though, so you could try searching https://launchpad.net/people
<nixternal> hiya mdke, fancy seeing you here :)
<mdke> I leave the country for 5 days and already I get the sneaky comments eh
<nixternal> hehe
<nixternal> vacation?
<mdke> sort of
<mdke> I went to Italy to do some wedding organising
<mdke> I wasn't working anyway
<nixternal> cool
<nixternal> how far away is wedding time?
<mdke> couple of months
<nixternal> wow, getting close
<nixternal> just to be clear, that would be your wedding correct?
<mdke> yes :)
<nixternal> OK, I kind of figured that, just wanted to make sure first
<nixternal> are the nerves kicking in at all yet?
<Burgwork> mdke: you getting married?
<nixternal> 14:47:57 [      mdke]  yes :)
<nixternal> hahahha
<Burgwork> by nice if I could scrape up the funds
<nixternal> haha, have an Ubuntu DocTeam section ;)
<nixternal> it has been more than 10 years since I was last in Italy. I would love to go again for sure
<nixternal> to bad I am 1) broke, 2) in school, and 3) broke ;)
<mdke> nixternal: nope, no nerves
<mdke> maybe later
<mdke> biggest problem with weddings is the guests :)
<nixternal> very true
#ubuntu-doc 2007-04-21
<twentyafterfour> channel topic might need an update - doc.ubuntu.com doesn't work
<nixternal> it works here
<nixternal> they are doing something funky with the servers I think
<nixternal> because I did notice yesterday it was having issues of not showing up
<twentyafterfour> hmm. ok, no big deal - I just noticed it not loading ;)
<twentyafterfour> hey I noticed something else - the online docs at help.ubuntu.com don't include feisty - is that just not ready yet?
<nixternal> that is correct
<CIA-12> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal feisty * r4122 / (5 files in 2 dirs): debian updates for kubuntu - update sidebar to point to sysdocs-index
<CIA-12> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal * r4123 kubuntu/debian/ (changelog control postinst prerm rules): merging feisty changes
<mdke> morning
<Burgundavia> morning mdke
<mdke> yo
* mdke looks with displeasure at his bugmail
<fijam> hello
<ubotu> New bug: #108625 in ubuntu-doc "Feisty: libdvdcss2 said to be in universe/multiverse, but it's not" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/108625
#ubuntu-doc 2007-04-22
<jussi01> hello
<jussi01> I have a question. what is the correct way to create man pages? is there a tutorial somewhere that someone could point me to?
<mdke> jussi01: I don't know. I think debian probably has one - maybe try searching google. We don't normally deal with man pages
<jussi01> mdke: thanks, motu gave me an answer so Im sorted.
<jussi01> :D
<mdke> good
<CIA-12> Ubuntu Documentation: philbull * r4124 ubuntu/musicvideophotos/C/musicvideophotos.xml: Remove libdvdcss2 from list of packages - closes #108625
<ubotu> New bug: #109041 in ubuntu-docs (main) ""Compiz documentation website" link does not open properly in Firefox" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/109041
<CIA-12> Ubuntu Documentation: philbull * r4125 ubuntu/desktop-effects/C/desktop-effects.xml: Alter links to reflect redirect on compiz website (#109041)
#ubuntu-doc 2008-04-14
<KillerKiwi2005> How to you do apt:package links in the wiki?
<ligemeget> What's up with the wiki? I can't create a new page!
<ligemeget> yo?
<Kamping_Kaiser> are you logged in?
<mdke> ligemeget: it's broken
<Kamping_Kaiser> mk
<ligemeget> yes
<ligemeget> Any ETA on when it's fixed? Is anyone working on it?
<mdke> no idea
<mdke> hopefully it will get fixed today
<ligemeget> ok
<ligemeget> btw, is translate-freeze in effect?
<mdke> ligemeget: yes, for translations not included in language packs
<mdke> see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HardyReleaseSchedule
<ligemeget> mdke, so ubuntu-doc is officially completely frozen, right?
<mdke> ligemeget: yes
<ligemeget> k
<ligemeget> damn, I had a lot of translations waiting, but nobody had the time to proofread them :(
<ligemeget> Oh well... They'll have to be in a later hardy-update then..
<mdke> ligemeget: we will certainly do an update
<ligemeget> ok - I'll continue translating then
<ligemeget> Also, since the official Danish translation coordinators are busy until august-september, is there someone else I can poke in order to get my translations integrated?
<ligemeget> also also, I believe that https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/egonas1 is implemented, and should be marked as such..?
<mdke> ligemeget: only people in ubuntu-l10n-da can help with that.
<mdke> ligemeget: it sounds like you need more approved members in ubuntu-l10n-da to me
<mdke> that spec has nothing to do with documentation, but I assume you are right
<ligemeget> mdke, true. Actually, I'm considering applying for membership myself...
<ligemeget> Now I've asked TLE for his opinion
<ligemeget> btw, I FINALLY got my Creative X-Fi sound card working on hardy beta - should I write a wikiguide on how I did it..?
<ligemeget> (providing the wiki gets some CPR...)
<ligemeget> mdke, I know this has been discussed a million times before, but... are there any plans on upgrading MoinMoin on the wikis...?
<LaserJock> plans ... yes
<LaserJock> actually getting anywhere ... we'll see
<ligemeget> heh, okay.. Here's to hoping, at least..
<ligemeget> I hereby acknowledge that I suck balls af Frozen Bubbles...
<ligemeget> *at
<ligemeget> *at playing
<ligemeget> ...and at spelling, apparently..
<deamoon> hi ppl
#ubuntu-doc 2008-04-15
<j1mc> hi ubuntu-doc
<nixternal> NOOOOOOOOOOO
<j1mc> yeah, yeah, yeah
<bimberi> win 12
<bimberi> heh
<l3on> mdke: what's up to wiki.ubuntu.com ?
<l3on> Home
<l3on> This page does not exist yet. You can create a new empty page, or use one of the page templates. Before creating the page, please check if a similar page already exists.
<bimberi> l3on, mdke: Some joker had renamed the page from "Home" to "HAHAAHAHAHA".  I've restored it but only by copying the content.  Moin wouldn't let me rename it back - claimed that "A page with the name 'Home' already exists".
<l3on> mdke: could you set an acl for this page?
<ubotu> New bug: #217860 in ubuntu-docs (main) "Ubuntu docs wrong for iPod under Rhythmbox" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/217860
<mdke> bimberi: when renaming pages back with our version of Moin, you need to go to the original page, and the ?action=info function to revert the change iirc, you can't rename the page back because Moin keeps the data for the original page before it was renamed.
<bimberi> mdke: I'm pretty sure I tried that but there was no revision history.
<mdke> bimberi: ah, I think that sometimes breaks...
<mdke> bimberi: thanks for taking care of it
<bimberi> mdke: np.  just happened to be lurking :)
#ubuntu-doc 2008-04-16
<kirkland> howdy all, I was directed here to show you guys: http://people.ubuntu.com/~kirkland/
<kirkland> it's an Ubuntu Documentation Search engine powered by a highly customized Google Search
<kirkland> and with search refinements hierarchically organized in a logical manner
#ubuntu-doc 2008-04-17
<mdke> kirkland: that's pretty cool. funnily enough we've recently been working on something similar. I'll email you to discuss
<mdke> hi glatzor
<mdke> glatzor: I noticed there are not many german translations in ubuntu-docs this cycle - is there a shortage of contributors in the de translation team? I'm surprised because it's a large community, and a lot of the other languages have made really good progress
<mdke> glatzor: let's chat another time about it, I have to go to work now
<kirkland> mdke: hiya
<kirkland> mdke: I responded to your email, with a bit more background on my efforts with this
<kirkland> mdke: the net is that I'm happy to collaborate, and I didn't know you guys existed :-)
<mdke> kirkland: :) welcome and thanks
<kirkland> mdke: sure, no problem
<kirkland> mdke: I was looking for a way to join the doc team on Launchpad
<kirkland> I don't see a "Apply" link as i thought I might
<kirkland> mdke: I'm going to capture the highlights of my design ideas in a Blueprint, and we can refine/collaborate on those as appropriate
<mdke> kirkland: ubuntu-doc on LP is an umbrella team for a number of other subteams, so we don't add individuals to that; however you might be interested in one of the subteams
<mdke> kirkland: blueprint sounds great
<kirkland> mdke: gotcha, i'll have a look at those
<kirkland> mdke: I'll send you a followup note pointing to the blueprint when I get around to it
<kirkland> mdke: ISO testing is hot and heavy right now ;-)
<mdke> kirkland: many thanks
<kirkland> mdke: you bet.
<kirkland> mdke: so you're the leader of the documentation posse, I take it?
<kirkland> :-)
<mdke> kirkland: we don't really have a "leader"
<kirkland> :-P
<mdke> bbiab, dinner has arrived
<kirkland> mdke: well, I was pointed to you
<kirkland> later
<mdke> kirkland: I guess I'm the person who bosses others around more than anyone else
<kirkland> mdke: I just ran across your blog, saw you were having trouble with at t43 and hard disk detection... is this still a problem?
<kirkland> mdke: see the footnote in http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/Category:T43
<kirkland> "While the physical disk is PATA (IDE), it is accessed through a SATA controller and a SATA-to-PATA bridge. It thus appears as a SATA device to the operating system, which causes some problems under Linux. The SATA-to-PATA bridge also necessitates drive firmware changes, causing a problem with non-ThinkPad hard disks. "
<mdke> kirkland: I still have it, but I'm pretty sure now it's a hardware issue, because it always used to work, and often when I cold boot, Windows won't start unless I reboot the system after a "no hard disk found" error
<mdke> kirkland: I'm going to send the laptop back as soon as I get around to it
<kirkland> mdke: yuck, that's a mess
<mdke> kirkland: still in warranty :)
<kirkland> mdke: well there you go
<mdke> kirkland: thanks anyway
<kirkland> mdke: I've only ever owned Thinkpads, but I've owned a lot of them, and I swear by them, and especially their warranty
<mdke> kirkland: this one has been pretty flawless.
#ubuntu-doc 2008-04-18
<yeager> mdke: seems like there are a couple of new strings in gnome's user-guide
<mdke> yeager: ah, I see what you mean now. Yes, I think they are probably the fixes from upstream for broken links
<mdke> yeager: they shouldn't affect translations - with the translations the links will still be broken but the language remains the same
<yeager> for example, "<guilabel>Centered</guilabel>: Displays the image in the middle of the desktop, respecting the image's original size."
<mdke> hmm. no idea about that
<mdke> possibly it came from upstream and I missed it. We haven't added any strings
<mdke> maybe it is a correction to an existing string
<yeager> yeah, upstream changed those strings on the 9th of April
<mdke> yeager: i see. well i apologise for that, but it shouldn't affect translations I don't think - they should still work
<mdke> yeager: but feel free to translate them in LP and we'll roll a translation update after release
<yeager> mdke: ok, thanks. owe you a pint :)
<mdke> yeager: no worries. make sure (although I know you will) to send the translations upstream too
 * mdke goes to work
<Zedde> Hello enyone know here I can come in contact with  Pedrom ?
<Zedde> Grrr
<Zedde> Hello Anyone here that knows where how I can get in contact with  Pedrom ?
<Zedde> it's about the LiveCD/Persistence artical
<mhz> moin all
<mhz> I know I can sound  be a pain in the neck with this, but how far are we to get  an upgraded Moin instance (1.7, hopefully). I mean, is there any chance we can plan a migration to a newer Moin version. I know there is lot of things involved for this but it is doable. I have even talked to Thomas Waldemann (lead Moin devel) and he's so happy with Ubuntu that he's available to help Ubuntu migration to a new Moin  version.
<sommer> mhz: I think the process has started: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2008-April/010711.html
<mhz> sommer: thx, I have just replied the email
<sommer> mhz: cool
 * mdke evenings
#ubuntu-doc 2008-04-19
<Zedde> Hello Anyone here that knows where how I can get in contact with  Pedrom ?
<Zedde> it's about the LiveCD/Persistence artical
<mdke> Zedde: generally, searching at http://launchpad.net/people is the best option
<ubotu> New bug: #211915 in amavisd-new "Insecure dependency when using sql for Log Reporting" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/211915
<Zedde> mdke: thanks
#ubuntu-doc 2008-04-20
<CloudFX> hi there, I'm looking for help with the ubuntu-intrepid repository
<sommer> hello, what's your question?
<CloudFX> hi, i believe you replied to an email i sent to the mailing list about the repository
<sommer> oh, heh just replied to your reply :)
<CloudFX> my issue is that whenever i attempt to open a .xml file, i get a 'parsing error'
<CloudFX> oh
<sommer> which editor are you using?  ...was basically my reply
<CloudFX> oh im just using firefox
<sommer> ah, that'd be the issue then
<CloudFX> right
<CloudFX> ill test it now
<sommer> the xml files are the source from which the website is created
<CloudFX> excellent, it worked
<CloudFX> thanks for your help!
<sommer> party!
<sommer> you're welcome :)
<ubotu> New bug: #219792 in ubuntu-docs (main) "Tech Review of dualboot.xml" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/219792
<ubotu> New bug: #219973 in ubuntu-docs (main) "Tech review report of applications.xml" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/219973
#ubuntu-doc 2009-04-14
<j1mc> hey jjesse
<jjesse> j1mc: hey, how are you
<jjesse> internet is slow in this hotel :(
<j1mc> i'm all right, thx
<j1mc> the weather should get nicer by Wednesday. :)
<jjesse> hopefully
<jjesse> j1mc: so do you live in the oak brook area?
<j1mc> jjesse: no - i live on the far north side of the city
<j1mc> i work in the burbs, though.
<jjesse> oh
<j1mc> not even really super close to oakbrook - more near the airport, actually
<jjesse> j1mc: i should be back in june as well
<j1mc> 'ohare
<j1mc> cool
<j1mc> should be even nicer then.  hopefully
<j1mc> :)
<jjesse_> wow crappy hotel internet
<j1mc> haha
<jjesse> yay for crappy hotel interneet
<nhandler> jjesse: By any chance would you be willing to look over a docbook file and provide some feedback for me?
<jjesse> nhandler: sure email it to me?  jjesse at ubuntu DOT .com
<nhandler> jjesse: It is a pretty big file. I can still email it if you want. It is also available at https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~nhandler/ubuntu-doc/packaging-guides
<jjesse> cool i'll download it then
<nhandler> jjesse: It is at packaging/C/packaging.xml
<jjesse> nhandler: cool i'll give it a chance?
<jjesse> i think internet went back down
<nhandler> jjesse: Were you able to download it? Or should I email it?
<OsamaK> Hello. I found some typos in the Arabic docs, is it possible to fix that? (the 'freeze' is in action).
<jmburgess> Hello, I want to create a guide on install xubuntu on a x61, and I want to place it on the wiki but i don't see any xubuntu specific wiki
<jmburgess> should I just put it on the main wiki and tag it somehow?
<mprice> that is what I would do jmburgess
<mprice> make the the title something like Xubuntu on X61 or something similar
<jmburgess> are there any tags I should apply to it?
<mprice> which tags are you talking about?
<mprice> the category one's?
<jmburgess> I am not sure, I feel like it would make sense if there was like a tag for articles that would say this is for xubuntu, kubuntu, etc.
<mprice>  you could use the "CategoryInstallation" tag
<mprice> as long as you put Xubuntu in the title when you create the wiki page I it should be pretty self explanitory
<jmburgess> ok sounds good to me
<jmburgess> thank you
<mprice> no problem
<bencrisford> Hey everyone, i've made myself a nice docbook xml file
<bencrisford> for the documentation of spux project
<bencrisford> but i dont know how to view it....
<bencrisford> help?
<bencrisford> please :)
<bencrisford> mdke_ - are you there? :|
<bencrisford> can anyone help me?
<bencrisford> Hey everyone, i've made myself a nice docbook xml file
<bencrisford> for the documentation of spux project
<bencrisford> but i dont know how to view it....
<bencrisford> help please?
<Atamira> what did yu save it as?
<bencrisford> i opened a ubuntu doc
<bencrisford> and saved as something with the same file extension
<bencrisford> probably xml
<bencrisford> so i opened an existing ubuntu one, and edited
<bencrisford> atamira: still there? :|
<mdke_> bencrisford: you can view it in yelp by doing "yelp /full/path/to/xml"
<mdke_> bencrisford: if you haven't got yelp, you can turn it into html and view it in a browser
<bencrisford> ill give yelp ago
<bencrisford> can i apt-get it mdke_?
<mdke_> bencrisford: yes, but it will pull in a fair bit of Gnome, I expect
<bencrisford> ok, thanks
<bencrisford> mdke_: when I yelp it, it says its not a well fpormed xml
<bencrisford> syntax error?
<mdke_> bencrisford: probably. You can diagnose those using the validate.sh script that you find in an ubuntu-doc branch, do you have one of those?
<bencrisford> not sure...
<mdke_> if you got the xml from one of our files, then probably you downloaded one of our branches, right?
<bencrisford> i did
<bencrisford> yeah
<mdke_> ok, so in the branch, you have scripts/validate.sh
<mdke_> you can run that like this: "scripts/validate.sh /path/to/xml"
<mdke_> any output is an error in the xml
<bencrisford> when i yelped it
<bencrisford> i got the errors
<bencrisford> i think
<mdke_> yelp won't tell you all the errors though
<bencrisford> but i think its just me being carelss
<bencrisford> im sure its simple to fix
<mdke_> it's always worth checking the file validates after working on it
<mdke_> just good practice
<bencrisford> ok
<Atamira> sorry about that. i have visitors
<bencrisford> Atamira: Its ok =]
#ubuntu-doc 2009-04-15
<nhandler> mdke_: You there?
<Rocket2DMn> nhandler, leave him a message and he'll get back to you
<Rocket2DMn> i think he's in Europe, so it's night :)
<nhandler> Rocket2DMn: It isn't a huge deal right now. I'm not even sure if he is the person I should be talking to. I just think that the copyright file (and probably a few other files in debian/) should be updated for ubuntu-docs
<Rocket2DMn> you could email the list, dean sas (dsas) may also be one to contact
<philsf> hello, bug #359719 (work around available) will probably not be solved for Jaunty, and I don't know if it warrants an SRU, but does it warrant a Release Notes note?
<ubot4> Launchpad bug 359719 in xserver-xorg-input-keyboard "abnt2 keyboard layout missing thinkpad variant" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/359719
<j1mc> is anyone around from the doc team?
 * nhandler is here
<j1mc> hi nhandler
<j1mc> i'm having a crap of a time trying to process the translations
<j1mc> the folder layout of xubuntu docs got changed (not my doing), and the translation script isn't working
<j1mc> suckssss!!!!!
<nixternal> mdke_: need a lesson on creating a new branch for kubuntu-karmic :)
<nixternal> I am a bzr dummy and I would like to do it the way you have in the past, making sure I don't break it
<nixternal> mdke_: nevermind that...figured it out...quite easy actually :)
<philip_> is ubuntu-doc considering a move to whatever gnome comes up with?
<mdke_> philip_: it's very early days, but we will certainly consider it if any seriou progress is made. It would probably be subject to the format working for KDE, XFCE
<mdke_> nixternal: jolly good :)
#ubuntu-doc 2009-04-16
<nixternal> mdke_: quick ? about the bzr repo setup.... would it be better if we did something like lp:~ubuntu-core-doc/{ubuntu|kubuntu|xubuntu|edubuntu}-docs/<release> ?
<nixternal> the current setup is a bit messy when viewing it in LP...just a thought, and do remember I am a bzr dummy :)
<nhandler> nixternal: Up for looking at a docbook file for me?
<nixternal> in a bit I can...getting ready to eat...link me!
<nixternal> when I get back I shall check it out
<nhandler> nixternal: 'bzr branch lp:~nhandler/ubuntu-doc/packaging-guides' ;)
<mdke_> nixternal: have you been following the huge thread on the mailing list recently about that exact question?
<mdke_> nixternal: see in particular my summary email here: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2009-April/012733.html
<philip_> i feel sorry that ubuntu-docs has to worry about sharing some docs but not others like this... it does not seem like a fun problem
<philip_> then again, allowing multiple groups/teams to update the same docs has its pros
<philip_> good night
<mdke_> philip_: well, that thread is really about the technicalities of Launchpad, rather than sharing
<mdke_> philip_: we can still share docs, regardless of the Launchpad setup
<mdke_> but we need to find the right way to do it
<philip_> that's the worry i am referring to
<mdke_> ah
<LjL> i think there's some, uh, vandalism or at least very misguided additions to https://help.ubuntu.com/community/VMware/Workstation - i'll revert it
<LaserJock> man, the Doc team has really grown
<LaserJock> I'm getting bugs like crazy
<LaserJock> and the mailing list seems rather active
<LaserJock> kudos
<mdke_> yeah, the bug work has ben good this release
<Rocket2DMn> mailing list is crazy active
<nhandler> mdke: ping
<mdke> nhandler: (In case I'm not around at the moment, please provide a bit of information about what you want and I will respond when I get back)
#ubuntu-doc 2009-04-17
<bencrisford> To start contributing with the team do I join the ubuntu documentation students first?
<bencrisford> im a little confused... :S
<Madpilot> bencrisford, not sure, but join the mailing list and ask there - far more active than this channel usually is
<bencrisford> madpilot: ok thanks ;)
<Madpilot> bencrisford, was just realizing I should have pointed you toward the mailing list, but you've obviously found it
<Madpilot> :)
<bencrisford> im on it already :)
<bencrisford> but i never posted on it before
<Madpilot> truth is I'm so behind the curve on current docteam operations I should probably join the student team myself...
<bencrisford> lol
<Madpilot> and I think Launchpad still lists me as one of the leaders of the docteam. Eek.
<bencrisford> :P
<bencrisford> damn :P, i put link refs in but forgot to put the links...
<bencrisford> im not very good at remembering stuff like that
#ubuntu-doc 2009-04-18
<mdke> morning all
<nhandler> Hey mdke
<XiXaQ> I'm trying to setup shared user accounts and following https://help.ubuntu.com/8.10/serverguide/C/openldap-server.html
<XiXaQ> however, I've tried several times, and I can't get it to work properly. Under LDAP Authentication, I'm asked to run the following command: sudo auth-client-config -a -p lac_ldap
<XiXaQ> this results in an error, saying "Error in updating the file: 'pam_account' not found"
<XiXaQ> is there a bug in the documentation, or am I doing something wrong? I thought I had followed the guide step by step.
<mdke> hi nhandler
<mdke> XiXaQ: difficult to say, I'd suggest that you ask on a support resource and see whether someone can help you
<nhandler> mdke: Are you the one who maintains the packaging of ubuntu-docs
<mdke> nhandler: more or less
<mdke> nhandler: I tend to upload the package; if there is a complicated issue I'll ask elsewhere for help though, as I'm not very good at packaging
<nhandler> mdke: Some of the packaging files need an update (i.e. debian/copyright)
<mdke> nhandler: yeah, there are a few lintian warnings too. if you're up for it you could do a bug+patch :)
<j1mc> mdke: ping
<mdke> j1mc: (In case I'm not around at the moment, please provide a bit of information about what you want and I will respond when I get back)
<j1mc> nice auto-reply
<j1mc> mdke: will you be able to make the gnome-doc meeting tomorrow?
#ubuntu-doc 2009-04-19
<abb> Hi, apologies if this is the wrong place to ask this -- but does this particular channel meant for the Ubuntu (System) Documentation Team, the Wiki Team, or (Insert Something Else Here)?
<nhandler> abb: This channel is for the Documentation Team. The System and wiki documentation teams are both part of this large team.
<j1mc> abb: we primarily handle the system documentation, but wiki docs factor in, too. It's just that the wiki docs are mostly written by the community, rather than just the doc team.
<j1mc> hi nhandler
<abb> Thanks nhandler, I guess what I meant to ask was if there were individual (less-generalized) IRC channels for the specific teams.  I didn't want to spam System Doc folks with Wiki Team questions, etc.
<nhandler> Hey j1mc
<abb> oops, should have waited to read jlmc's post -- ha
<j1mc> abb: ah, ok. it's ok to ask here. :)
<j1mc> are you having trouble with the wiki docs?
<abb> Oh, nothing like that -- I am actually looking to volunteer in one or both of the doc team areas, but I haven't quite decided where I could best help out (in terms of my particular skillset, etc).  So I suppose I was just making sure I knew "where to ask, once I knew WHAT to ask" :)
<nhandler> abb: Well, if you are interested in helping out with the wiki, Rocket2DMn is going to be organizing a summer of documentation that focuses on updating and cleaning up the wiki
 * Rocket2DMn peeks
<j1mc> hahaha
<abb> I'm eager to help with *something* w/ the Ubuntu community, so naturally I looked to the code/bug section and quickly decided that my coding talents are not quite to par with those fine individuals.  But documenting what coders do?  Hey, now that I can dig...
<abb> summer of documentation -- nice
<abb> sounds like punishment for high schoolers who acted out during the regular school year
<abb> :)
<Rocket2DMn> funny isnt it, something like that can be fun when you're not being forced to do it, otherwise it might be boring and dull
<abb> no doubt -- I mean, why comment your OWN code when you can comment ABOUT someone else's?
<abb> (Or wikify said comments in some form or fashion.)
<Rocket2DMn> hehe, well we're not documenting code, we're really documenting how to use the system
<nhandler> abb: If you are interested in documenting code, you can look up packages that are missing man pages
<abb> Nothing quite like spending a summer developing documentation for a community that will immediately (1) improve things such that said documentation is obsolete, and (2) edit it away forever, god bless the wiki. :)
<Rocket2DMn> documentation should generally be written at a level that a beginner can understand
<Rocket2DMn> indeed abb , that is one of the major problems, is outdated documentation
<abb> nhandler, I was looking at doing that particular thing actually -- but when I executed "man programWithNoManPage" there was nothing to tell me how to use the darn thing, so how can I document something like THAT? jeez.
<Rocket2DMn> man firefox
<Rocket2DMn> of all the programs...
<abb> The way I see it -- and please, don't take this to mean that one type of documentation is more important than others -- but I've made minor changes (typos, etc) to the Wiki pages, and that seems like a relatively easy place to start.  Doesn't require learning how to use Docbook, for example.
<Rocket2DMn> +1, that's one reason i like the wiki, and choose that as the starting point for people participating in the summer of documentation
<Rocket2DMn> you need to get comfortable with some wiki syntax, but you can learn it through imitation
<abb> (That would allow me to wade in, start helping immediately -- and then I can wade into the other areas of re-documentation-ification as I become more familiar with the process...)  Does this sound like an absurd approach, or appropriate...?
 * abb asks the experts
<Rocket2DMn> lol @ re-documentation-ification
<nhandler> abb: That sounds like a perfectly fine approach. It will allow you to gain experience writing documentation and interacting with the team (although /me isn't a doc expert)
<abb> everyone lol's at redocumentationification.
<Rocket2DMn> thats not absurd at all
<Rocket2DMn> ive done a bit with docbook, but definitely started with the wiki
<abb> (As you see, I am perfect for the Docs team, as my masterfulified mastering of the english languages is quite simply, masterific.
<abb> So, wiki editing -- after reading the DocumentationTeam/Wiki page, the linked style guides, a comprehensive volume on morse code and its relevance to today's society -- what would be the best next step?  Jumping on the "Cleanup" pages, or the "Tasks List"...?
<Rocket2DMn> not sure how much we use that Tasks page
<Rocket2DMn> checking for pages that are Tagged is a good start though
<Rocket2DMn> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Tag
<abb> If you don't use the Tasks page -- is that because there are few tasks, or because "todo" items are listed in the bugtracker at Launchpad or because there is simply not any work to be done? :)
<Rocket2DMn> heh, well there is always work to be done
 * abb says "ooh, a clicky-link-thing!" and flies to the tags section
<Rocket2DMn> i think we just havent managed to keep it organized well enough on that page to make it very useful
<abb> (How did I know that would be your response, Rocket2Dman!)
<abb> I know, if only someone or some group could be assigned to work on the wikis and related documents ...
 * abb cringes at what was apparently a (failed) joke. oops
<Rocket2DMn> well, the community docs are kind of a FFA
<Rocket2DMn> its very difficult to keep it organized
<abb> er....  FFA is not among my TLA vernacular
<Rocket2DMn> free for all
<abb> ah
<abb> see, I know not of this "freedom" you speak, that was the confusion
<Rocket2DMn> well this is FOSS, get used to it :)
<abb> Is it a problem I do all my work under Vista64/Windows 7?    Ahem, but seriously folks --   I had one question that is more for my own curiosity, but I don't mean to start any emacs/vi type arguments here. :)   The q is:
<Rocket2DMn> you can use whatever you want
<abb> MoinMoin vs Mediawiki -- why was the former chosen, when the latter seems to be more widely established?
<Rocket2DMn> you have Ubuntu in a VM?
<abb> Oh, it was a joke Rocket.. sorry sorry.  I'll quit with the jokes.
<Rocket2DMn> well, for many people, that joke is truth
<Rocket2DMn> we dont hold it against them
<abb> wow, that's almost quite the deep statement
<Rocket2DMn> i still keep windows around, there is no shame in that
<abb> Oh, no -- I understand.  I mean, that's why Ubuntu exists (one might argue) -- because there wasn't really a great alternative "for the masses" until Ubuntu, so most people are still stuck with that other OS.
<Rocket2DMn> re: wiki engine, i'm not sure why moinmoin was chosen, i wasnt using Ubuntu at the time
<abb> oh.
<Rocket2DMn> i'm sure it's been discussed, you could probably find it on the doc team mailing list archives
<abb> Ah.  I shall RTFMalingTeamArchives then.  Shouldn't be but a few thousand to sort through. :)
<j1mc_> maybe because it is based on python, and python is so widely used in ubuntu? i'm sure that probably had something to do with it.
<abb> Actually, I should probably think up questions and search the mailing list -- I bet I can find most answers there without having to pick your brains, though you have been very nice and openly brain-pickable.
<Rocket2DMn> well you're certainly welcome to ask questions, can't guarantee we'll have all the answers though
<abb> that makes perfect sense
<abb> (the python thing)
<abb> Well, I think I will go read some before I ask too much more -- just to avoid wasting people's time.  Though I'm sure I'll just end up generating MORE questions, darn that silly "learning more makes you realize you know less" paradox.
<abb> Rocket2dMn -- Do I need to do anything to "sign up" or "enlist" in your Summer of Docs army?
<abb> ^Hvolunteer group?
<Rocket2DMn> no abb
 * abb hopes there's no credit check involved.  
<Rocket2DMn> I will send an email out on the mailing list when we officially start, which will probably be early May
<abb> that would be the general docs mailing list, or if I just subscribe to the wiki list (for now) will I get it?
<abb> Eh, no matter -- I'll subscribe to the general list.  Okay, well, thanks Rocket2DMn, jlmc, nhandler, and anyone else who offered such friendly advice/info.  Enjoy the rest of your weekends!
<Rocket2DMn> same to you, thanks for your interest
<abb> oh, I'm just happy that there are so many areas w/ Ubuntu where I can contribute.  (For goodness' sake, I am trying to decide "which of the many options is best for my particular skillset" -- what an embarassment of riches!)
<Rocket2DMn> abb, i know exactly how you feel, i contribute to a number of areas
<emorris> is the documentation team responsible for man pages, or just the help centre?
<Rocket2DMn> we dont really do man pages, those are part of a particular package
<emorris> ok
<emorris> so should I say report a bug for that package and upload a patch?
<nhandler> emorris: Yes. And if possible, you should also send the patch upsteram
<nhandler> s/upsteram/upstream/
<emorris> ok, thanks
<Rocket2DMn> what package is it emorris ?
<emorris> libsmbios-bin
<emorris> but it was more of a general quation tbh
<dbcummings3374> I apologize if this is not the correct place to ask this question.  I am interested in joining the Ubuntu Documentation team and being helpful in whatever way I can.  I am trying to navigate the mentoring process but I am little unclear on how to begin.
<Taim> What's unclear?  Did you start at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Mentoring ?
<dbcummings3374> Yes.  That is where I began.  I signed up for the mailing list.  I also chose a possible task and emailed the maintainers to see if they were interested in my assistance.  I haven't received a response yet.  I wasn't sure if I was following proper procedure.  I am confused as to how the mentoring program work and how to get a project and a mentor.  I apologize for my confusion.  I really am trying to follow protocol.
<Taim> I hear you.  I haven't navigated it either.
<Taim> What task did you take?
<Taim> Are you expecting it to go into Jaunty or are you looking to start work on Karmic?
<dbcummings3374> I saw a need for some work on documentation for system-cleaner-gtk (Cruft Remover).  I think this would be for Jaunty, but as I am revisiting the task list, I am wondering if I picked something that just was an example of a possible task rather than an actual task.  I am actually willing to work on documentation for anything.  I have been an Ubuntu user for a number of years and I am now pursuing my LPIC.  I am trying to move from being a user
<Taim> You cut off at "I am trying to move from being a user"...at least for me.
<dbcummings3374> Sorry... here it is.  "I am trying to move from being a user to a contributor and I thought that Documentation would be a good place to get my feet wet."
<Taim> It is.
<dbcummings3374> OK.  I am at the actual Task List in launchpad that was referenced at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/Tasks.   This is getting a bit less confusing now.  I appreciate your patience with me.
<Taim> For now, work on any changes to the offical documentation is over for Jaunty (with the rare exception of serious documentation flaws that would affect release).  Though, I do think translations are being worked on....Don't quote me on that :)
<dbcummings3374> OK.  Thats helpful.  Thank you.  I am a native English speaker, but my other languages are Koine Greek and Ancient Hebrew.  Neither of those are useful for translating into their modern equivalents.  I guess I will be looking into documentation for Karmic.
<Taim> It's a good time to start learning.
<Taim> Just remember to be self-motivated.  Here is a good spot to ask I guess.  Though I am in the boat with you (still learning).
<dbcummings3374> I understand that.   I appreciate your assistance.  I'm actually using the Canonical courses to prepare for the LPIC.  Thats where I discovered all the different methods for getting involved and getting information.  I'll be coming in here fairly often.
<Taim> good to hear it.
<Taim> I am off to bed.  Have a good night.
<dbcummings3374> You as well.
#ubuntu-doc 2010-04-19
<Mirv> mdke: so the translations in the ubuntu-docs weren't properly brought, it seems, or have you tested the new package as working? I tested German and Finnish.
<Mirv> mdke: ok, I see now that you've already done a new, fixed import in bzr. thanks, whenever you get to upload that.
<Mirv> although, hmm, it does not seem complete still
<Mirv> ok, it looks like the translations import is more or less correct probably, but since the translations are not shown in the xml, something during build has gone wrong
<Mirv> filed bug #566611
<ubot4> Launchpad bug 566611 in ubuntu-docs (Ubuntu) "Translations not updated in 10.04.3 for any language (affects: 1)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/566611
<Mirv> ok, thanks a lot :) I had missed that thread even though I glance at that subscription all the time :P
<man0riaX> Hey
<mdke> Mirv: np, hope all is clear now
#ubuntu-doc 2010-04-20
<man0riaX> Morning
<cjay554> Hey everyone, just a bit of an intro to myself. My name is Chris and i've dedicated lots of time and effort to helping people use Ubuntu, from beginners to intermediates, over time i've felt that the same questions rise up and the same processes to fix the problem are issued. So i decided to make a Channel on YouTube to compile it all into a set of Videos. I always looked online for answers to some questions i myself had, and with time
<cjay554>  i found that Videos, the easiest of all guides, weren't all that organized, so with this I was also encouraged to make this channel. I hope it makes of some use with the doc team, i myself am not very confident about my abilities, but i've had good feedback here and there. http://www.youtube.com/user/CJay554
<Kangarooo> this channel is for documantation team and this team makes better wiki pages?
<Kangarooo> i cant understand this https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SoundTroubleshooting#Manual%20Installation sub topic Another way to restore ALSA to the Ubuntu default
<Kangarooo> "............ Here's a safer way that did. ............ That re-grabs all of the alsa binaries and modules." theres some command missing
<Kangarooo> anybody alive?
<Kangarooo> how can i see revisions of wiki page?
<jpds> PageURL + ?action=info
#ubuntu-doc 2010-04-22
<zeroseven0183> Hi! Am I in the right channel to ask about the Ubuntu Manual Project?
<detrate-> Hello, I'm looking to help out with ubuntu studio documentation and I'm new to the ubuntu documentation scene, so I have some questions about the system as I talk with the team about possibilities.
<detrate-> 1) is it possible to edit template files, with some sort of markup language.  Comparing wiki.ubuntu.com and wiki.kubuntu.org I see that wiki.ubuntu.com has a menu but kubuntu does not
<detrate-> 2) I see that a subdomain wiki.<ubuntu-flavor> can be used... I was wonder if the 'help' reference can follow suit
<detrate-> i.e. so we can have wiki.ubuntustudio.org and help.ubuntustudio.org
<mdke> detrate-: broadly, a project like Ubuntu Studio is free to manage its websites as it wishes, so it's no problem to set up subdomains like that. However it would be quite cool I think to develop some Ubuntu Studio documentation on help.ubuntu.com/community so that it is in the same place as Ubuntu documentation and Ubuntu users can discover it as well as Ubuntu Studio users
<mdke> detrate-: wiki.ubuntu.com isn't for documentation. The site we focus on is help.ubuntu.com
<mdke> detrate-: I'm not sure I understand the question about template files
<detrate-> the idea behind using the subdomains, wiki.ubuntustudio.org and help.ubuntustudio.org is that some of the information I imagine will get pretty specific to packages that come standard with ubuntu studio and don't want to confuse the user more than they need to be.  For a more broad package, it would make sense for the user to go to the main ubuntu wiki
<detrate-> it's not just about documentation but organizing the vision and plan.  There are no plans to change the way 'help' and 'wiki' are used in respect to the project
<detrate-> as for the question about template files, on wiki.ubuntu.com there is a menu in the top right, "ubuntu, community, support, partners, etc." -- but not on wiki.kubuntu.org -- I was wondering if this is something we can leverage in the CMS or if this is only something available to wiki.ubuntu.com
<detrate-> because it would be nice to add custom menu options to help filter information
<mdke> detrate-: you could have a landing page on wiki.u.c and help.u.c/community and subpages of that, to delineate specific documentation for Ubuntu Studio
<mdke> detrate-: the links in the top right are part of the wiki theme, you could certainly develop a specific theme for Ubuntu Studio if you create a separate website
<detrate-> is there any documentation I can reference to get an idea of the boundaries of the system?
<mdke> of what system?
<detrate-> the ubuntu wiki CMS
<detrate-> I see this: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiGuide
<detrate-> but maybe something more admin oriented? I imagine a regular user cannot modify the template
<mdke> if you want to learn more about the software, you can visit the website for the software, which is http://moinmo.in/
<detrate-> okay, thank you
<mdke> you can set up a "desktop" version of the software to play around with themeing and such, rather than install a full server version locally
<detrate-> I already live in a LAMP environment so that's no big deal :)
<mdke> as you prefer
<mdke> details are here: http://moinmo.in/DesktopEdition
<detrate-> thanks again
<mdke> np
<detrate-> so do we have access to create run plugins?
<detrate-> I assume they'll have to go through QA or some sort of check
<mdke> not really. But if you are thinking of creating a separate website, wouldn't you be administrating the software yourself?
<detrate-> I thought it'd be running off the same core system just with a different URL as wiki.kubuntu.org does
<mdke> ok, but then wouldn't you run into the same problem as you mentioned before about confusing the user?
<detrate-> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio https://wiki.kubuntu.org/UbuntuStudio
<detrate-> well, not with the theme I don't think
<mdke> ok, so you'd use the same wiki, but simply a different theme?
<detrate-> I mean, the obvious argument here is that it works for kubuntu
<detrate-> different theme, different URL, additional menu options
<detrate-> is the overall goal
<detrate-> aiming for a more integrated look and feel
<mdke> well, depending on what you mean by "menu options", that can be managed in the theme
<mdke> it's historically been very difficult for us to add plugins
<detrate-> it looks like I can get what I need without a plugin http://moinmo.in/HelpOnThemes
<detrate-> but it's nice to know what's available for future needs
<mdke> well, in as far as plugins might be generally useful for documentation, we may well have a common interest to push for them to be added
<mdke> but generally it's quite tricky
<mdke> incidentally at present there is no help.kubuntu.org afaics, the separate theming is only implemented for wiki.kubuntu.org
<detrate-> I'm confused about the wiki configuration in the documentation I just linked you to.  I can't tell if these changes are files, entries in the CSS file or modifications to the core files.
<mdke> I can point you to the code for help.ubuntu.com/community if it helps
<detrate-> it might
<mdke> it's here - https://code.launchpad.net/~mdke/ubuntu-docs/helpwiki-newtheme
<detrate-> oh wow, someone went all out here: http://moinmo.in/ThemeMarket/Explorer?action=AttachFile&do=view&target=explorer-theme-desktop.png
<mdke> i don't really understand python but I managed to knock that theme together by trial and error
<detrate-> ^_^
<mdke> and just looking at other themes
<mdke> gosh, that explorer theme is something
<detrate-> okay, well this pretty much answered my question http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~mdke/ubuntu-docs/helpwiki-newtheme/annotate/head%3A/MoinMoin/theme/ubuntunew.py
<detrate-> python is still a bit crazy for me too look at too :-P
<mdke> :)
<detrate-> but not as confusing as Ruby! :)
<mdke> I don't know any programming languages
<detrate-> PHP is probably the one I use most often... for better or for worse
<mdke> I'm sure you'll pick up MoinMoin theming without difficulty
<detrate-> yeah, it'll be mostly CSS changes anyway
<detrate-> and some basic HTML additions
 * mdke nods
<mdke> we welcome suggestions for improving the Ubuntu theme too :)
<detrate-> I maybe able to help
<detrate-> did you know the homepage has some random markup? off to the left?
<detrate-> #ubuntulogo has bad css
<detrate-> someone used 'text-indent:-300px;'
<detrate-> so on a widescreen, you see 'ubuntu' floating off to the left
<detrate-> there is a better way to hide this text cross-browser
<detrate-> width:0; padding-left:202px; overflow:hidden;
<mdke> nope, my css is very basic too, wasn't aware of that :)
<detrate-> oh, that's on www.ubuntu.com http://imgur.com/kA8tn.png
<detrate-> you can see the light gray text in the top left
<mdke> I believe ubuntu.com is getting an overhaul for the new release
<mdke> so no doubt it will be rather different in a week or two
<detrate-> ahh, okay, well that's good
<mdke> we will need to work on updating the wiki themes too
<detrate-> as long as it's not too orange
<mdke> it might be purple ;)
<detrate-> okay, well let me know when that all starts coming together and I'll see how much time I have to help
<mdke> detrate-: will definitely do so, thanks. If you hang around on here or the mailing list, you'll pick up on any discussions
<detrate-> sure, I'll idle here
<mdke> great, it isn't noisy
#ubuntu-doc 2010-04-23
<newz2000> Hi, can someone tell me if there is any work going on to document the upgrade from 8.04 to 10.04?
<mdke> newz2000: not sure
<newz2000> mdke: is there a normal procedure people follow to avoid duplicating work?
<mdke> newz2000: discussion on the mailing list would be the best way I think, and coordinating with the release team who might also work on such documents
<newz2000> ok, thanks
#ubuntu-doc 2010-04-24
<man0riaX> Hey
#ubuntu-doc 2010-04-25
<brianherman_home> i miss categorized a bunch of docs
<brianherman_home> how do i change the category
<brianherman_home> is it just at the bottom?
<philbull> hi guys
<mdke> evening all
<mdke> anyone else around?
<philbull> i see quite a few lurkers
<mdke> let's wait a couple of minutes and see who pops up
<philbull> is there an agenda?
<mdke> I just added a kind of basic agenda earlier, but nothing specific
<mdke> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/MeetingAgenda
<mdke> feel free to add points
<philbull> ok, shall we begin?
<mdke> guess so :)
<mdke> any lurkers arrived?
<Pendulum> for the record, I'm here, but I'm new and haven't done anything for the doc team yet
<mdke> Pendulum: great, welcome aboard
<mdke> philbull: you wanna chair?
<philbull> can do
<philbull> First on the agenda:
<philbull> Lucid post-release plans
<philbull> what are they?
<mdke> we've discussed a little bit with the translators about a fairly quick post-release release
 * mdke goes to get the link
<mdke> basically, the idea was to fix a few bugs quickly after release, give the translators a bit of time to update the translations, and roll a new upload around early June
<philbull> sounds good
<mdke> my proposal was here - https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-translators/2010-April/003492.html
<philbull> this is an lts release after all
<mdke> the plan was originally to add a bit of material for Ubuntu Music Store, but we can also fix other bugs
<philbull> Did we handle all of the late UI changes this release?
<philbull> I caught a couple
<mdke> I'm not sure, there were quite a few
<mdke> I can't immediately think of any big bugs, except for the one about the offline startpage having the wrong logo
<mdke> but i'd encourage anyone who finds bugs which they think should be fixed in lucid to nominate them and to raise them on the mailing list
<philbull> OK, so i guess the most pressing issue is timeframe
<philbull> I assume we'll work in the Lucid branch for these updates
<philbull> when do we freeze, and when do we push the release?
<mdke> I think we should give the translators 3-4 weeks, but otherwise I don't mind about timing
<philbull> If we give it 2-3 weeks after the release, to give people chance to report bugs
<philbull> then we fix everything, freeze, and give the translators a month
<mdke> I think that's about right
<philbull> So, approximately, that's freeze on, say, 17 May
<mdke> heh, was typing the identical date
<philbull> Release on 14 June?
<mdke> realistically the release will be a weekend :) So call it translators stop on 11 June, upload on 12-13 June
<philbull> Yep, sounds fine
<mdke> the SRU process will take a bit after that I guess before it actually goes live
<philbull> That's fine. All that matters is we get it out of our hands...
<philbull> Unless there are any objections, I'll note this down as an action item
<mdke> cool, thanks
<mdke> any other lurkers appeared in the meantime?
<philbull> ACTION: Mail the list (+translators) with a timeline for a post-Lucid ubuntu-docs release
<philbull> OK, quiet tonight!
<philbull> Next agenda item?
<mdke> yeah :(
<philbull> Plans for Maverick
<mattgriffin> hi guys. i'm here as well :)
<mdke> yay!
<philbull> hey mattgriffin
<mattgriffin> hey... sorry got distracted with work and a baseball game
<philbull> I guess my first plan is to get some Mallard docs ready for testing. Soon.
<mdke> from a ubuntu-docs pov, do you think we will be working with Gnome docs in this release, or do you think we should focus on the same structure we have now for maverick?
<mdke> >_<
<mdke> wb philbull
<philbull> sorry, I'm back
<mdke> my thinking is that this depends a lot on how quickly Gnome documentation starts to
<mdke> develop
<philbull> Yes.
<mdke> from a ubuntu-docs pov, do you think we will be working with Gnome docs in this release, or do you think we should focus on the same structure we have now for maverick?
<philbull> I think we should push on with the GNOME docs
<philbull> we need to help upstream
 * mdke nods
<philbull> because, at the moment, we sort of *are* upstream
<mdke> so should we also be looking at changing our own documents at all at this stage, or focus on upstream contribution?
<philbull> I'll have loads more time to work on the GNOME desktop help in about a month
<philbull> we should focus on upstream contribution
<philbull> If we get the upstream stuff right, ubuntu-docs itself will be much smaller
<mdke> that makes sense to me
<philbull> we'll have a lot less to do ourselves, since GNOME will cover the majority of what we need to cover
<philbull> So far, there are only really a couple of people working on the GNOME desktop help
<mdke> I'm just concerned that Gnome desktop help won't be ready for maverick... but I suppose that if it isn't, we can just assess that mid-cycle and if necessary ship what we have now
<philbull> I don't think there's any issue with it not being ready
<philbull> I'll just do it all if I have to!
<mdke> hah
<mdke> ok, you're on
<philbull> (I have quite a long summer this time round)
<philbull> it would be great to get people involved, though
<mdke> definitely
<philbull> we should advertise more and set up some sort of structure to get people working on it
<philbull> I just don't have time for that ATM though
<mdke> we could use launchpad+bzr I suppose to allow people to create patches on upstream git if they feel more comfortable with bzr?
<philbull> It doesn't even need to be that complicated
<Pendulum> I'm about to quit my job so will have quite a bit of time to help out, but I'm also very much non-technical and not really sure the best place to start
<philbull> Plain text submissions via email are fine at this stage
<mdke> Pendulum: we can definitely help you along
<philbull> Pendulum: being non-technical is fine
<philbull> the most important thing is writing well
<mdke> philbull: ok. Maybe a wiki then with the structure that is set up, so that people can just fill in the blanks
<philbull> Yes
<mdke> we can leave that up to Gnome to decide how best to arrange contributions
<philbull> (OK, in this sense, Gnome=me)
<mdke> aren't the others working on this?
<philbull> Milo is, AFAIK
<philbull> Shaun is very busy with Yelp etc
<mdke> Gwaihir: you're lurking!
<mdke> right
<mdke> well I haven't learned Mallard yet
<philbull> I don't know about Paul, but he's normally doing marketing stuff
<Gwaihir> oops.. forgot there was a meeting here... :(
<philbull> mdke: nothing to learn!
<mdke> I was wondering whether the Rhythmbox manual might be a good place to start
 * Gwaihir goes and read the backlog
<philbull> aren't people already working on the RB manual?
<mdke> dunno, maybe
<philbull> we have an outline of topics for the desktop help
<philbull> I think that will be a good place to start
<philbull> I already have someone (Cristopher) working on part of it
<mdke> off list?
<philbull> yes
<Gwaihir> philbull, somebody is already working on RB manual?
<philbull> Gwaihir: I don't know
<mdke> bring it on the list and others will get involved too, I think
<philbull> do we have a list for this sort of thing?
<philbull> mdke: sure
<philbull> (todo list)
<philbull> OK, I think that's an action item
<philbull> ACTION: Publish list of Mallard documents for people to work on
<mdke> any news of KDE adoption?
<mdke> nixternal: here?
<philbull> OK, we can park that
<philbull> Getting the GNOME desktop help finished is my #1 priority
<mdke> is the topic outline complete now?
<philbull> Only for a couple of topic areas
<philbull> there's plenty to work on, though
<philbull> we want to finish a couple of areas first so we know what we're doing
<philbull> Here you go:
<philbull> http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-doc-list/2010-March/msg00121.html
<mdke> ok
<mdke> yeah I saw that
<philbull> I'll set up a wiki page for completion status
<philbull> OK, next up: Installation guide?
<philbull> The Ubuntu manual guys have a chapter on this
<philbull> we can use that, with appropriate edits
<mdke> ok
<philbull> I'm back
<philbull> Lucid updates killing my wireless
<philbull> OK, where were we?
<philbull> Are there any objections to using the Ubuntu manual's installation chapter?
<mdke> not here, but I haven't read it
<philbull> last time I saw it it looked fine
<philbull> I'd just like to edit it to remove some of the more technical language
<philbull> It would be great if someone volunteered to work on this
<philbull> it's a 1-2 person job
<mdke> I would post to the mailing list and see who volunteers. you might even get someone from the manual project volunteering to help out
<philbull> Yep, sounds like a plan
<philbull> ACTION: Ask for volunteer to create installation guide out of Ubuntu manual material
<philbull> We have about 10 mins before I need to head off
<philbull> Are there any other pressing matters?
<philbull> (We're a bit low on people in attendance I guess)
<mdke> nothing from me
<philbull> The only other thing I've been thinking about is rationalising the sound documentation
<philbull> We have loads of troubleshooting advice for sound problems spread all over the wiki and forums
<philbull> It would be good to collect it and make some sort of structured troubleshooter out of it
<mdke> that would be very useful
<philbull> (ditto for printing and wireless, but one thing at a time)
<mdke> sound is a common issue
<philbull> It would be nice to have a brainstorming session some time
<philbull> Build up a list of common problems, match them up to solutions
<philbull> figure out easy diagnostic steps
<mdke> it's also quite a tricky technical issue, I suspect we might need some input from developers
<philbull> yes
<philbull> it would be good to discuss this at UDS, but I'm not going...
<philbull> I'll ask on the list
<mdke> good plan
<philbull> ACTION: Float the idea of a sound troubleshooter on the list
<philbull> On last thing
<philbull> Working with the Canonical user experience guys
<philbull> I want to get a small collection of user personas writtem
<philbull> ^written
<mdke> as I understand it, they haven't yet done much user testing that will be useful to us
<mdke> but that might change in the next 6 months, I guess
<philbull> I'm interesting in getting them to work with us
<philbull> we need people in other teams to talk to us more
<philbull> I think this is something to raise at UDS
<philbull> I'll be attending remotely
<mdke> ok
<philbull> OK, anything else, or shall I go and make a cup of tea?
<mdke> sounds good :)
<mdke> thanks for chairing
<philbull> heh, that's OK
<mdke> let's schedule another meeting again soon
<philbull> thanks for turning up!
<philbull> mdke: yes, good plan
<philbull> I'll work through my action items in a bit
<mdke> I'll take the one about lucid-updates
<philbull> Sure
<mattgriffin> mdke: if you need any help with the lucid updates, please ping me
<mattgriffin> mdke: but not until after next thurs ;)
<mdke> mattgriffin: cool. Actually I've just pushed the material which I had added to our maverick branch to our lucid branch
<philbull> Oh, for the guys who're watching: if you're interested in contributing, please email the mailing list, ubuntu-doc@lists.ubuntu.com
<mattgriffin> mdke: cool
<philbull> we'll help you to get started
<mdke> mattgriffin: it would be good to get some proper Ubuntu One help up and running for maverick
<mdke> starting with the online material that you have we should be able to create some onboard system help
<mattgriffin> mdke: cool
<philbull> OK, I'm going to head off now
<philbull> thanks for coming everyone!
<mdke> mattgriffin: and moving the online stuff to the right website :)
<mdke> philbull: thanks
<mattgriffin> mdke: :)
<mdke> Gwaihir: searching my email, the only stuff I can find about rhythmbox help is between you and Jim - I take it that didn't go anywhere?
<Gwaihir> nope, Jim hadn't time and even did I, I plan on resuscitate that one in this period
<mdke> ok, I'd like to help with this too
<Gwaihir> I need to coordinate with the RB guys though, 'cause they don't follow any release schedule to my knowledge
<mdke> I think we can get a structure and most of the material based on the current version I think
<mdke> then update if they release again
<Gwaihir> if we are lucky they should release one around september, so that gives us quite some time
<mdke> how do you test Gnome? is there an easy to use live cd which is vanilla Gnome?
<Gwaihir> I'll try to kickstart that this week first writing to the RB dev list and hear from them
<Gwaihir> there should be the Foresight distro
<Gwaihir> that is 99.9% upstream
<mdke> ok
<mdke> I need to learn how to use git as well
<Gwaihir> it's not that difficult, you only need to get used to it
<Gwaihir> like any other tools
<mdke> guess so
<mdke> well I guess there will be plenty of planning to do before git becomes necessary
<Gwaihir> yeah :)
<Gwaihir> also, I would like to have an almost identical manual with banshee...
<mdke> that sounds sensible, I haven't used banshee but I could start
<Gwaihir> I know pcutler had been working on that... don't know if he had written it or not
<Gwaihir> need to check out that too
<mewshi> hi there!
<mewshi> Just out of curiosity, is there any thing that I can do right now? :)
<mdke> mewshi: yeah, lots! The best option is to hang out on the mailing list
<mewshi> Ok :)
<mdke> mewshi: there are three emails from this evening from PhilBull about how people can contribute over the next release cycle
<mdke> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2010-April/014731.html
<mdke> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2010-April/014730.html
<mdke> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2010-April/014729.html
<mdke> mewshi: I don't know what you are interested in but we'll definitely appreciate any help you can give
<mewshi> I used to have a job doing editing, is there anything that needs edited? :3
<mdke> you can certainly help by reviewing the documentation that we have any reporting bugs or making patches
<mdke> have a look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation for more info
<mewshi> How do I get a hold of the person to express interest in doing the installation guide? >.>
<mdke> mewshi: just reply to that email on the list :)
<mewshi> how do I do that from the web? >.>
<mewshi> I'm sorry, I'm not used to mailing list archives >.<
<mdke> it's not possible from the ubuntu list website, but if you like you can do it from another website like Gmane
<mdke> you can browse/reply from here - http://news.gmane.org/gmane.linux.ubuntu.doc
<mewshi> Just send a message to the mailing list address?
<mewshi> Will that work?
<mdke> that will work but it wouldn't be a reply in that case, it will start a new thread. But if you don't like gmane, that will certainly do the trick. You'll need to subscribe to the mailing list first
<mewshi> I already have :)
<mdke> great
<mewshi> Ok, I think I sent an e-mail to the list now, it's part introduction, part expression of interest in helping with the installation guide :)
<mdke> sounds good
<mdke> welcome aboard and look forwarding to seeing your work :)
<mewshi> do you know of any wiki articles or anything that could be cleaned up or anything? :)
<mewshi> Seriously, if there's anything I can do right now, tell me :)
<mewshi> I have 3 hours of nothingness to look forward to otherwise
<mewshi> mdke, you know of anything I can do right now?  Honestly, I'm very bored.
<DarkwingDuck> mewshi: I believe there are some bugs already reported into ubuntu-docs that you could create patches for.
<mewshi> Ok, and how do I do that?
<DarkwingDuck> mewshi: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-docs Look at the new ones...
<DarkwingDuck> mewshi: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam this will give you some guidance too
<DarkwingDuck> mdke: You going to be able to make it to UDS?
 * mewshi is terribly lost
<mewshi> can someone please give me a good starting project and help me understand what I need to do?
#ubuntu-doc 2011-04-18
<mdke> jbicha: I think that will work. But to reduce the size of the merge request, my suggestionw as to create separate branches for each piece of work that you do. E.g. create a branch for work on the sound pages and call it natty-sound-edits and submit that as a merge request.
<mdke> jbicha: see for example what Gunnar has done https://code.launchpad.net/~gunnarhj/gnome-user-docs/guest/+merge/58079
<mdke> jbicha: once the branch has been merged, you can discard it and move on
<jbicha> mdke: ok, would you like me to resubmit them as separate branches?
<mdke> jbicha: no, I think it's not worth doing it for existing work, just for future things
<mdke> jbicha: unless j1mc has any other ideas - as he is the guy reviewing all the patches right now :)
<jbicha> haha, I'm not sure what exactly he wants as far as patches go
<mdke> I think he will manage with whatever you give him; it's much appreciated
<peppe84> Hi, anyone working on ubuntu-docs at this moment?
<peppe84> I see openoffice and Rhythmbox in new to ubuntu section
<mdke> peppe84: not much - patches are very welcome though
<peppe84> mdke, hi matt. thanks. I can try, is a good chance for me to learn docbook :-)
<peppe84> or mallard
<mdke> peppe84: the ubuntu-docs material is in docbook, and the gnome-user-docs material in is mallard
<mdke> peppe84: it's reasonably easy to pick up if you are just editing and correcting mistakes or updating
<peppe84> mdke, but I can push my edit with bzr or in another way?
<mdke> peppe84: feel free to ask here if you have questions, although we are not always around, we will answer eventually :)
<mdke> peppe84: yes, you can submit a patch or push your branch to Launchpad and then request a merge review
<peppe84> cool! Now a try :-)
<mdke> the relevant branches are lp:~ubuntu-core-doc/gnome-user-docs/natty (for the main help) and lp:~ubuntu-core-doc/ubuntu-docs/natty (for the old "Ubuntu Classic" help)
<peppe84> sorry :-( I have a little problem with a propose of merge. You can help me? http://img860.imageshack.us/i/schermatavo.png/
#ubuntu-doc 2011-04-19
<jbicha> j1mc: are you around?
<j1mc> jbicha: i just got back
<jbicha> j1mc: cool, I was just wanting to know how you wanted me to submit my patches so it's easiest for you to review
<j1mc> jbicha: your patch submission has been great.
<j1mc> thanks very much.  you're submitting them as merge requests, which is really easy to work with.
<jbicha> so individual bzr branches for each set of changes?
<j1mc> i committed one earlier, and i have merged the other one locally. i just want to review it a bit.
<j1mc> i'm sure it will be fine, though.
<j1mc> hmmm... you could re-use the same branch if it gets merged, i guess. i'm not sure what the best or common practice is on this, really.
<jbicha> I talked with mdke about it some last night but since you're the reviewer, it's your decision :-)
<j1mc> perhaps with some types of work - using distinct branches is important. as long as the merge contains the most recent changes, i don't think it matters too much for our work, though. do you?
<j1mc> i don't have any kind of official title.  :)
<jbicha> I just wasn't sure if it were more confusing to have several changes stacked up
<j1mc> how you've been doing it has been fine for me, but ... if how you've been doing it is cumbersome for you... let me know how it is.
<j1mc> is how you've been doing it ok for you?
<j1mc> having several changes 'stacked up' is ok for me. i like being able to see a kind of 'set' of changes at a time.
<jbicha> ok, I'll stack changesets and then start over with new branches as they get out of date
<j1mc> get out of date?
<j1mc> (brb)
<j1mc> back
<mdke> j1mc: hey. For info, I uploaded another package yesterday evening and will aim to upload one every day as long as we are getting this level of improvement :)
<mdke> j1mc: at some stage the packages will stop getting accepted and we should set a cut-off for ourselves
<mdke> j1mc: according to the release schedule main is frozen already but I suspect we could set Thursday as a target
<peppe84> !paste
<ubot2> For posting multi-line texts into the channel, please use http://paste.ubuntu.com | To post !screenshots use http://imagebin.org/?page=add | !pastebinit to paste directly from command line | Make sure you give us the URL for your paste - see also the channel topic.
<peppe84> Hi all. I have some validate error in musicvideo/troubleshooting.xml http://paste.ubuntu.com/595877/
<peppe84> in which file are locate this xref element?
<peppe84> ok, sorry. now I understand. Is right. ^
<j1mc> mdke: thanks for your help! that sounds good.
<mdke> j1mc: hey
<mdke> j1mc: things are looking quite good I think. Just addsoftware and mobilebroadband to be dealt with, as far as I can see. And perhaps there are still a couple of patches outstanding
<mdke> j1mc: I started to look at learning Mallard yesterday to have a go at addsoftware
<mdke> didn't get very far but will keep at it, time permitting
<j1mc> mdke: perhaps i can do a read-through today, and put some notes up on the wiki.
<j1mc> a sort-of 'to-do' list
<mdke> of the whole package you mean?
<mdke> it would be a good idea to get a table going for each file with status
<j1mc> yeah.  at least just a skim through
<j1mc> yeah. i feel like we need more unity tips and tricks
<mdke> rick spencer was going to work on something, I read in the scrollback
<j1mc> for the docs?
<mdke> rickspencer3:^ (sorry, just noticed that you are in the channel)
<mdke> yes
<j1mc> ok - any help is appreciated
<mdke> thanks again for leading this effort, it's been excellent
<j1mc> you are welcome. thank you for your support, too. we need to look at html. it's a different theme than what is currently up there.
<j1mc> any ideas?
<j1mc> need to look at *uploading* the html
<mdke> I suspect that we will be able to plug it into the code we have fairly easily
<mdke> the problem is that the code we have uses the old Ubuntu theme, not the new one. But perhaps we can look into updating that after the release
<mdke> uploading the html is very easy, we have the bzr branch for that
<mdke> but we can take care of this next week
<j1mc> ok - i know you put the 'how-to' on the wiki not too long ago... maybe i can take a look at that. i'm not very strong with xslt, though.
<mdke> I will have a go with it this week hopefully
<mdke> thinking about it I am likely to be travelling next week so this week is better for availability (on holiday)
<j1mc> ah, ok
<j1mc> i need to ship out - start of the day here. :) have a good one, mdke
<rickspencer3> mdke, hi, I wrote something up over the weekend
#ubuntu-doc 2011-04-20
<j1mc> i have been told that 'bzr rebase' does the same as 'git pull --rebase'. requires the bzr-rewrite plugin to work. will have to try this out later.
<rickspencer3> jasoncwarner, j1mc ...
<rickspencer3> http://theravingrick.blogspot.com/2011/04/my-effort-at-writing-help-for-unity.html
<j1mc> rickspencer3: thanks
<j1mc> rickspencer3: i assume that help is licensed under a cc-by-sa 3.0 license?  :)
<rickspencer3> j1mc, I will license it however you want
<rickspencer3> in fact, attributions is not required
<j1mc> rickspencer3: thanks, and thanks for doing that.
<rickspencer3> j1mc, did it look at all like what you needed?
<j1mc> rickspencer3: yes, i had been looking at having the intro topics (at the top of the help) being more unity-specific, and your notes are similar to what i had outlined.
<j1mc> rickspencer3: your post does raise a couple of questions about terminology, though...
<rickspencer3> j1mc, well, I just made my best stab at it
<rickspencer3> please feel free to change the terms I used to suit
<j1mc> ok.  :)  i just wasn't sure if you were using terms that had been 'decided on' in some fashion. no worries, then.
<j1mc> thanks again. i'll get going on this now.
<rickspencer3> j1mc, if you'd like me to try my hand at writing anything else, let me know
<rickspencer3> also, I have no ego attached, please just feel free to party on it
<j1mc> :) i will get some pages stubbed-out based on your suggestions and what i had in mind earlier, and will enlist the help of doc-folk.
<j1mc> we will be ok.
<j1mc> it is good to have your 'subject matter expertise' in the form of that posting, though.
<j1mc> it's helpful.
<issyl0> Morning.
<mdke> issyl0: afternoon :)
<issyl0> mdke: Evening.
<issyl0> (Wow, we might get to have a conversation soon...)
<j1mc> rickspencer3: i don't have many commits in, but i've been working on the intro sections. i am going through them pretty extensively, so it is just taking some time.
<rickspencer3> j1mc, s'okay
#ubuntu-doc 2011-04-21
<rickspencer3> hey all, did the final help for Natty get uploaded?
<mdke> rickspencer3: I've uploaded a package a short while ago but as to whether it's final or not, I'm not sure
<rickspencer3> mdke, I just want to say "thanks" to you and the rest of the #ubuntu-doc team
<rickspencer3> you folks are the best!
<rickspencer3> I'm really impressed with how you managed to make it all work given the depth and frequency of changes
<mdke> rickspencer3: basically it is all down to j1mc and jbicha, they have done a lot of work on this.
<mdke> rickspencer3: we left ti rather late...
<mdke> rickspencer3: next release hopefully things will be better
<rickspencer3> mdke, well, 11.04 is certainly better for the effort!
<rickspencer3> will I be seeing anyone from #ubunut-docs in budapest?
<mdke> not sure. Not me anyway
<mdke> but maybe others
<peppe84> !paste
<ubot2> For posting multi-line texts into the channel, please use http://paste.ubuntu.com | To post !screenshots use http://imagebin.org/?page=add | !pastebinit to paste directly from command line | Make sure you give us the URL for your paste - see also the channel topic.
<peppe84> Hi guys. Maybe, another link is needeed in ubuntu-docs? E.g. here http://imagebin.org/149478 I can't go to index page. Right?
<jbicha> j1mc: howdy
<j1mc> hi jbicha
<jbicha> I wrote a brief overview of the indicators
<jbicha> and I think the already existing windows & workspace page is fine
<j1mc> cool
<j1mc> i'll need to take another look at the windows + workspaces page. you are probably right
<jbicha> did you have more stuff you were working on for the addremove software area?
<j1mc> could you take a look at the unity-launcher-intro page? we need to add some topics that will feed-in to the bottom sections.
<jbicha> I had a few off days, but I'm like in a sprint today
<j1mc> i've placed a <comment> in there to kind of outline some of the topics that we need
<j1mc> me, too.
<j1mc> where are you from, btw?
<j1mc> would you feel comfortable adding in some new topic pages that link-in to the launcher-intro sections?  (at the bottom of the launcher intro page)?
<jbicha> are we capitalizing Launcher and Dash now?
<j1mc> yes, i have been capitalizing them.
<jbicha> haha, I haven't, hmmm
<j1mc> maybe i should put them in lower case. now that i think about it, it would be a bit weird to always refer to the panel as the Panel.
<j1mc> maybe lowercase with an <app> or <gui> tag around it would be most appropriate.
<j1mc> <gui>... do you think that sounds good?
<jbicha> that's what I've been doing, the help style seems to prefer lower case to title case anyway
<j1mc> yeah
<j1mc> i'll change that around then.
<j1mc> i'll use lowercase with the <gui>gui</gui> tag.  :)
<jbicha> cool
<j1mc> going back to the launcher topics... would you feel ok with adding in a few new topic pages?
<j1mc> i've outlined my thoughts in the "comment" section of the page.
<jbicha> give me a moment to remerge so I can see the latest launcher page
<j1mc> the guide link would look like this:  <link type="guide" xref="unity-launcher-intro#section-id">
<j1mc> note the #section-id at the end of the link.
<j1mc> ok :)
<j1mc> brb
<jbicha> shell-windows-switching has a blurb you may want to move about the white triangles
<j1mc> ok - i'm back
<j1mc> jbicha: oh, ok. thanks for the tip about the white triangles
<jbicha> the launcher control panel app is annoying, it's so small and doesn't do much
<jbicha> maybe it will make more sense in 11.10
<j1mc> jbicha: you mean the thing with two options on it?  yeah.  :)
<jbicha> and it can't even do that right, it opens in the top left corner, instead of the center of the screen
<j1mc> it opened in some funky spot for me, too. i think it opened in the bottom left of the screen for me.
<jbicha> lol
<j1mc> back to le doc'ing
<j1mc> too much to do... : /
<jbicha> we don't have to do /everything/ this cycle
<j1mc> a solid intro is important, though.
<jbicha> ok, I added launcher autohide in my natty-work branch & the launcher pinning was already written
<j1mc> ok - i'll grab the launcher pinning help.
<sladen> czajkowski: j1mc: mdke: Would you be able to comment on  https://bugs.launchpad.net/onboard/+bug/768583
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 768583 in onboard "UIFe: Onboard (on-screen keyboard) does not use Ubuntu interface font or colours" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<sladen> czajkowski: j1mc: mdke: AFAICT there are no/few screenshots of Onboard in the documentation
<sladen> czajkowski: j1mc: mdke: which might proclude it from being pushed
<jbicha> I don't even think we discuss onboard in the docs yet
<j1mc> sladen: we're a bit behind on docs for this release. if you wouldn't mind filing a bug about lack of onboard docs in the documentation, we will address it when we are able.
<sladen> j1mc: no, no /precisely/ the opposite request here ;-)  I want you to confirm that there aren't any!  :-)
<sladen> j1mc: (I will of course file a bug report about it anyway)
<j1mc> sladen: oh, ok. let me look at our a11y topics
<sladen> j1mc: is  https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-docs/+filebug  the right place?
<jbicha> gnome-user-docs is what we're using now I believe
<sladen> j1mc: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-docs/+filebug  ?
<sladen> okay
<j1mc> sladen: either one is fine. and, yes, i can confirm that we don't currently have any help relating to onboard.
<j1mc> we have help relating to orca, but it needs to be modified slightly.
<sladen> j1mc: can you add your +1 to  https://bugs.launchpad.net/onboard/+bug/768583  on before of ubuntu-docs
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 768583 in onboard "UIFe: Onboard (on-screen keyboard) does not use Ubuntu interface font or colours" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<sladen> j1mc: eg. just  "At the moment we don't have any documentation about Onboard (we have some about Orca, but it needs updating)" so this proposed merge is fine by the Ubuntu Docs team"
<j1mc> sladen: oh, ok. sure.
<j1mc> sladen: done
<AlanBell> hi all
<AlanBell> I am wondering if there is any documentation impact of changing the look of the onboard on-screen keyboard
 * sladen smirks
<Pendulum> AlanBell: you're late
<j1mc> hi AlanBell
<AlanBell> heh
<j1mc> i just responded to that bug report
<AlanBell> cool
<j1mc> :)
<AlanBell> o/ Pendulum
 * sladen still laughing
<sladen> true comic timing there
 * j1mc goes to get an early dinner.
<jbicha> hmm, Ubuntu ships with 10 indicators, I just figured out how to turn on the accessibility one
<Pendulum> jbicha: on Classic or Unity?
<Pendulum> Unity still isn't completely accessible so don't expect full functionality on it if you try using just the accessibility features to access it
<jbicha> we should mention the funky scrollbars
<j1mc> we should go back to gnome already. make things easier on ourselves. :)
<jbicha> I'm working on the a11y pages now
#ubuntu-doc 2011-04-22
<j1mc> i'm headed off of irc. thanks for your help, jbicha
<jbicha> j1mc: did you have more addremove stuff you were working on?
<j1mc> jbicha: no, i haven't been working on that. i think you have a pending merge there, though, right?
<j1mc> i was literally *just* trying to merge that about 5min ago
<j1mc> it is telling me that it's not a branch
<j1mc> i'm not sure why
<j1mc> there we go, i did 'bzr diff ~/path/topatch.txt"
<j1mc> s/"/'
<j1mc> jbicha: thanks again for your help. seems like mostly you and me for now.
<j1mc> jbicha: i will propose that you get commit privileges just after we release 11.04. you are doing great work, and i appreciate it very much.
<j1mc> jbicha: not sure if you saw what i wrote...
<j1mc> jbicha: thanks again for your help. seems like mostly you and me for now.
<j1mc> jbicha: i will propose that you get commit privileges just after we release 11.04. you are doing great work, and i appreciate it very much.
<j1mc> ^^ : )
<jbicha> thank you! :-)
<j1mc> jbicha: i made a few changes to your patch, but it mostly looks fine.
<jbicha> ok
<j1mc> for example, there was one tag that was <tag> like this</tag>. we shouldn't have spaces within the tag.
<j1mc> it it easier to translate w/o leading/trailing spaces within the tag
<j1mc> merged. thanks, jeremy!
 * j1mc just now sees the pending merges on launchpad.
<j1mc> from jeremy
<j1mc> there are a lot of them
<jbicha> oh, yeah, there's a whole lot
<j1mc> i had just merged your email. :)
<j1mc> before you commit anything else to that branch, let me do a quick review and merge that stuff in
<j1mc> can you give me ~20 min?
<jbicha> yes, that's fine
<j1mc> thanks
<j1mc> i had to resolve a conflict from changes i had made to your email submission. that is done, though.
<j1mc> i separated out the PPA topic from the 'other software sources topic."
<jbicha> yeah, it's hard to tell when to split stuff into separate pages
<j1mc> jbicha: yeah
<j1mc> ok - i've merged the topics. i didn't get to review everything, but it all validates.
<j1mc> i figure that some people will be looking for PPA-specific help, so that's why i did it.
<jbicha> you removed a11y-icon?
<jbicha> except for the wrong image, that page actually is valid
<j1mc> ok - i made a few changes, and re-instated the page.
<j1mc> thanks for noting that.
<jbicha> looks like you didn't bzr add the ppa page
<j1mc> yeah, i just got that this time. :)
<j1mc> on the commit i just pushed
<jbicha> cool, thanks for the big merge
<j1mc> i still need to add it to the Makefile, though.
<j1mc> yw... we'll just need to go through and review them.
<j1mc> btw, the 'top bar' is a gnome term. we're just calling it the panel.
<j1mc> i got a request to test a pre-release ISO today. think they've started testing the release ISOs.
<jbicha> "top panel" or "panel" ?
<j1mc> http://askubuntu.com/questions/10228/whats-the-right-terminology-for-unitys-ui-elements
<j1mc> it just says panel
<j1mc> i want to talk with the folks who put up all of this stuff on ask ubuntu
<j1mc> those kinds of things should go on the wiki
<jbicha> except we don't have to follow that 100%, "home button" is a poor term for instance
<j1mc> we don't own ask ubuntu
<j1mc> yeah, i prefer 'ubuntu logo'
<jbicha> jcastro has been one of the big ones pushing askubuntu even over the wiki
<j1mc> and people posting stuff to omgubuntu... i understand it on one level, but stuff from that site is proprietary. we can't take wording from there.
<j1mc> i understand the marketing value of it, though.
<jbicha> hmm, I hadn't thought about that concern, but omgubuntu clearly hope to monetize their work
<j1mc> i'd like to start up a documentation team blog so that we can post this stuff ourselves
<j1mc> i'm going to take a break for a bit. thanks again for your help, jbicha
<j1mc> have a good night!
<peppe84> Licence documentation need an update from 2.5 to cc 3.0?
<mdke> peppe84: yes, I think our intention was always to use 3.0
<peppe84> Ah, ok!
<issyl0> Hi there.
 * issyl0 pulls down Rick's latest Unity stuff and has a look - cool.
<issyl0> Er, I meant Jim's Unity stuff.  (Confusing email subject lines.)
<mdke> j1mc|afk: hey :)
<mdke> j1mc|afk: I uploaded a package this morning and it was accepted this evening, but I'd like to get another one in to add back mobile broadband, as that is something that seems to me quite important to get into the images if possible
<mdke> j1mc|afk: I wanted to know whether there is anything in particular you are working on that I should wait for
<j1mc|afk> mdke: i fixed a bunch of link errors today.
<j1mc|afk> we don't have any help about chat, though. net-chat... there's nothing there
<j1mc|afk> we should port-over the help from maverick, i think.
<mdke> I won't wait for that this evening
<j1mc|afk> ok... the links are fixed with the exception of that one. i should probably just comment-out that chat link, then.
<j1mc|afk> that would be very easy to do... would just take a moment.
<mdke> cool
<mdke> I've seen quite a few validity errors
<mdke> but I don't really know how to fix them
<j1mc|afk> really? how have you seen them?
<shaunm> I see four
<shaunm> sorry, five\
<j1mc|afk> can someone pastebin the errors? i can fix them, fix that one link, and then be ok for now.
<mdke> I've got loads more than that
<mdke> but I'm not certain my validation is working properly :)
<j1mc|afk> mdke: can you pastebin what you have, and then i'll take a look?
<j1mc|afk> shaunm: same for you?
<mdke> I'll commit my script and the schema I've been using
<shaunm> I need to learn to remember that bzr doesn't automatically pipe to a pager like git log does
<Rocket2DMn> hey guys
<Rocket2DMn> long time no see
<shaunm> oh, I think I don't have the latest
<shaunm> hi Rocket2DMn
<mdke> validation script committed
<Rocket2DMn> i've been out of the loop a bit, but i've been trying to follow the tidal wave of emails these last few weeks
<mdke> I can't wait for any more fixes unfortunately, need to upload now apparently to have a chance of getting into the cd images
<shaunm> bzr log shows me the last revision is on 04-12. bzr says there's no revisions to pull
<j1mc|afk> mdke: can i fix that one thing?
<j1mc|afk> it will literally take 1 minute
<j1mc|afk> the broken chat link
<mdke> yep
<j1mc|afk> ok
<shaunm> mdke: most common validations errors are pretty benign
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> hey Rocket2DMn
<shaunm> ah, <comment> elements after <section>. another common mistake. yelp doesn't care about that one either
<mdke> shaunm: sounds like your bzr log and pull are working from the local copy only; you can try binding your branch "bzr bind lp:~ubuntu-core-docs/gnome-user-docs/natty"
<mdke> then bzr update
<mdke> or specify "bzr merge lp:~ubuntu-core-docs/gnome-user-docs/natty"
<Rocket2DMn> So is gnome-user-docs being used for Unity documentation, and ubuntu-docs is being used for the classic gnome interface docs?
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: correct
<Rocket2DMn> ok, i'm installing beta2 on an old testing laptop right now, not sure if i'm gonna be able to contribute to unity docs if it doesnt support running unity
<Rocket2DMn> i still run lucid on my desktop
<mdke> I'm using a usb live installation
<Rocket2DMn> nice
<mdke> my work laptop runs windows and I can't install Ubuntu on it at all
<Rocket2DMn> what about upstream gnome docs? I thought they werent using unity
<Rocket2DMn> doesnt that create merge headaches for us if we want to merge updates from upstream?
<mdke> correct, but the amount of work done by upstream made it easier to take them and adapt them than to try and redraft ubuntu-docs
<shaunm> Rocket2DMn: ubuntu has a fork of the new gnome-user-docs that's been changed for unity
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: yes, I doubt we will be able to merge updates from upstream in the future
<mdke> perhaps select ones
<mdke> but sadly Ubuntu has diverged too much from Gnome
<Rocket2DMn> ok, just making sure i'm not completely off base here
<shaunm> might be able to cherry-pick pages between each other, but large-scale merges aren't going to be feasible
<mdke> exactly
<Rocket2DMn> depending on how organized their commits are upstream, even cherry picking could be a major headache
<mdke> there may be some pages / subjects which are close together
<j1mc|afk> mdke: gaah... the only way i can fix it for now is to mark it as a stub. we don't have enough chat help."
<mdke> Ubuntu still uses many Gnome applications
<mdke> j1mc|afk: ok
<Rocket2DMn> without yet looking at unity, i would expect that most documentation on actually using apps should be applicable, but anything for navigating the desktop UI will be useless
<mdke> j1mc|afk: try to avoid touching any Makefile if you can
<j1mc|afk> mdke: ok - i think we're ok to go w/o that change.
<j1mc|afk> we will have to do it after release, i think.
<Rocket2DMn> Have we figured out what our docs on h.u.c. will contain?
<mdke> j1mc|afk: fine, thanks
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: shaunm has done some work on a build tool for the Mallard docs. We'll have to publish both sets to help.u.c
<mdke> shouldn't be too bad
<mdke> just need to harmonise the themes
<Rocket2DMn> cool, i think i saw the XSLT that was sent, along with a resulting web page
<Rocket2DMn> it looked nice
 * mdke nods
<Rocket2DMn> man we have a lot of open bugs :(
<mdke> probably mostly out of date
<Rocket2DMn> some are, a lot are also requests for new docs
<j1mc|afk> i emailed with adam... he hasn't been able to work much on server docs this release.
<j1mc|afk> he got married.
<j1mc|afk> :)
<Rocket2DMn> lol, that's probably the best excuse there is
<mdke> nice
<Rocket2DMn> good for him
<mdke> he has done some work though this release, he's too modest
<Rocket2DMn> yeah ive seen some commits, he's done more than me... /shame
<mdke> me too
<jbicha_> I don't think we're actually diverging too far from gnome's docs
<jbicha_> some of the delta is because we're not using gnome-control-center 3 yet
<jbicha_> and we may want to have a section for gnome-shell stuff anyway as that will be installable in 11.10
<mdke> the difficulty is that merging text changes is generally pretty difficult with any level of divergence
<mdke> we already have a diff of 164K after only a couple of weeks work
<Rocket2DMn> speaking of moving forward, are we going to continue to push new documentation into natty after its released since we got a late start?
<mdke> yes :)
<mdke> we have no translations right now so we have to
<mdke> but we will also keep working
<mdke> if we keep going at this pace we will have something awesome
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, did you disable the translations for ubuntu-docs?
<mdke> no
<jbicha_> are we going to stop all but bugfixes at a certain date so that the translators can actually translate a stable work for natty?
<mdke> jbicha_: at some stage we will have to stop completely
<Rocket2DMn> ok, i thought i had seem emails about disabling some translations - did that happen at all for anything or am i confused?
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: for gnome-user-docs
<Rocket2DMn> rgr
<mdke> rgr?
<coalwater> hello
<Rocket2DMn> roger that
<mdke> ok
<mdke> hi coalwater
<jbicha_> mdke: well a merge is possible, but I guess the question is whether someone will have the time to do it manually
<j1mc|afk> a merge of what
<coalwater> i have a problem in creating my wiki page, i'm not sure if this the channel i should be asking for help in
<mdke> jbicha_: I think cherry-picking specific files is an option
<mdke> coalwater: go ahead
<jbicha_> j1mc|afk: gnome-docs 3.2 for instance
<mdke> j1mc|afk: gnome-user-docs now uploaded; we'll see if it gets through
<coalwater> whenever i try to save the page it gives me this error
<coalwater> Page could not get locked. Missing 'current' file?
<mdke> sounds tricky. What's the page?
<coalwater> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Coalwater
<coalwater> i looked around and i found this http://moinmo.in/MoinMoinQuestions#MoinMoinQuestions.2BAC8-Errors.Error_when_saving_page_.22Page_could_not_get_locked._Missing_.27current.27_file.3F.22
<coalwater> the page was doing fine, but when i tried to edit a 4th revision it did that
<mdke> and now it seems to have been deleted completely
<Rocket2DMn> can someone enlighten me on how to actually build the gnome docs?
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: you want to build a deb package?
<j1mc|afk> i did an apt-get update && apt-get dist-upgrade a little while ago, and ubuntu-docs was the *only* package updated.
<j1mc|afk> :)
<Rocket2DMn> well, whatever has to be done in order to fully test changes i suppose
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: it's normally enough just to view the pages in yelp
<Rocket2DMn> ok, and there are a lot of them at that :)
<mdke> yes
<mdke> coalwater: I don't know the answer to this, it seems to be a difficult one. I recommend you save your previous material (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Coalwater?action=raw&rev=3) and start a new page with it at a different address (say CoalWater maybe)
<jbicha_> Rocket2DMn: cd gnome-docs/C and then yelp .
<jbicha_> no need to compile anything
<coalwater> ok i could do that as a temp solution but is there anyone i could contact?
<Rocket2DMn> jbicha_, do i need the version of yelp in natty? It's not letting me run it here on lucid
<mdke> coalwater: yes, the admins of the wiki are the Canonical Sysadmins
<j1mc|afk> Rocket2DMn: yes, you would
<mdke> coalwater: they use a request tracker here:  https://rt.ubuntu.com/ (uname/pword ubuntu/ubuntu)
<mdke> coalwater: but you can often wait weeks/months for a request to be actioned
<coalwater> lol that sounds optimistic
<mdke> coalwater: you can join #canonical-sysadmin to see if you can chat with someone about it
<mdke> maybe their response time has improved recently, I haven't tried for a while
<jbicha_> j1mc|afk: yelp 2.30 doesn't work with the docs?
<coalwater> ok, thanks mdke
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: I suspect you need yelp 3
<j1mc> jbicha_: that's right. at least 2.9x.
<Rocket2DMn> yeah looks like natty is the only thing with 3, no 2.9 anywhere in the default repos
<mdke> coalwater: sorry I couldn't help more
<Rocket2DMn> well it seems that the old laptop cant handle unity (not surprised, the laptop is 7 years old)
<mdke> right, gnome-user-docs version 8 has been accepted and will be in natty :)
<j1mc> :)
<Rocket2DMn> sweet
<j1mc> thanks, mdke
<j1mc> thanks, ubuntu-release-team whereever you are
<mdke> thanks to you
<j1mc> :)
<mdke> ScottK was the guy who pushed it through for us
<jbicha_> Rocket2DMn: if you click the triangle next to the Natty version, there is a link for you to download the package you need
<j1mc> i feel like we did a lot to get things ready, but there's still so much more to do.
<mdke> you did a lot
<mdke> it looks great
<mdke> coalwater: I should say it's probably an unlikely moment to get hold of a sysadmin, Easter holidays in most places
<j1mc> we will get to it, i suppose
<Rocket2DMn> jbicha_, where are you looking? I just ran rmadison to see what verisons there were
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: perhaps you could try the non-unity version of natty
<jbicha_> Rocket2DMn: oh I assumed, you were looking at https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/yelp
<j1mc> i'm going to step away for a bit. take a break. thanks for your help, all.
<mdke> I'm off to bed
<mdke> ciao
<j1mc> ciao
<Rocket2DMn> jbicha_, ah i see
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, i got natty installed on the laptop, it just cant run unity is all
<jbicha_> but I don't know if you might have dependency trouble for yelp 3
<Rocket2DMn> given that i need yelp3 to edit the gnome-user-docs, i guess i'll just have ot upgrade my version on my lucid desktop since this is where i do the actual work
<shaunm> hey, do you guys knows what version of yelp will be on the cd?
<shaunm> did 3.0.1 get picked up?
<Rocket2DMn> the interface doesnt seem to have really changes since maverick though
<Rocket2DMn> not sure shaunm , i see 3.0.0 on LP marked as pre-release freeze
<shaunm> yelp 2.30 should be able to display the help. some of the fancy stuff won't work, but it should just fall back to basic link lists
<jbicha_> Yelp 3 does look different than 2.30
<jbicha_> Yelp is not a help editor
<Rocket2DMn> shaunm, im running 2.30 on lucid and its not letting me open the .page files in the gnome-user-docs bzr checkout
<Rocket2DMn> "The requested URI "/home/connor/ubuntu_bzr/gnome-user-docs/natty/gnome-help/C/index.page" is invalid"
<Rocket2DMn> i did a right click -> open with
<shaunm> Rocket2DMn: you can pass 2.30 a page file directly. you have to do yelp $(pwd)/#pageid
<shaunm> replace pageid with whatever is in the id attribute
<Rocket2DMn> yelp `pwd`/index.page
<Rocket2DMn> got the same error
<shaunm> yelp `pwd`/#index
<Rocket2DMn> ooo
<Rocket2DMn> works with the #
<Rocket2DMn> that's interesting
<Rocket2DMn> lol
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, the index.page has an extra XML close comment
<Rocket2DMn>   <e:mouseover match="unity-dash-intro" src="figures/unity-dash-intro.png"/>-->
<j1mc|afk> shaunm: it looks like 3.0.0-0ubuntu2
<shaunm> j1mc|afk: that is unfortunate
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, its resulting in a --> showing up near the top of the document in yelp
<shaunm> I made the 3.0.1 before what I was told was the deadline for ubuntu to pick it up
<j1mc|afk> Rocket2DMn: i don't see it in my current checkout
<j1mc|afk> anyway, we still have a lot to fix.
<j1mc|afk> shaunm: did you feel like this when the gnome3 docs were shipped? like you did a lot, but still so much more to do?
<j1mc|afk> :/
<Rocket2DMn> j1mc|afk, im at rev 1484
<Rocket2DMn> it says i'm up to date
<j1mc|afk> Rocket2DMn: ok
<shaunm> j1mc|afk: that is exactly how I felt
<shaunm> there's *still* tons to do
<shaunm> half of our networking docs are actually wrong
<shaunm> (because the whole networking stack landed like a week before release, during code freeze, which is absolutely batshit insane, and I'm still pretty upset about it)
<j1mc|afk> yeah, that was a crazy time to land that stuff
<jbicha_> which is why we're going to have to merge in the 3.2 docs
<j1mc|afk> jbicha_: no, they use a different network-manager app in gnome3
<shaunm> the networking stuff might be right in what you're shipping
<jbicha_> Rocket2DMn: I think what you're seeing is because you're using the older yelp
<jbicha_> shaunm: oh ok
<shaunm> the pages that are wrong in gnome were mostly written by people like phil, sitting in front of an ubuntu computer, assuming the rug wouldn't be pulled out from under them
<Rocket2DMn> jbicha_, could be hidden in a newer yelp, it's still invalid xml though
<j1mc|afk> we have network-manager .8.4, and gnome has .9x
<j1mc|afk> big differences with version .9
<jbicha_> Rocket2DMn: oh, yes you're right
<shaunm> Rocket2DMn is right. there's a stray comment closer in the links element. it happens not to affect yelp 3, which supports the links element
<shaunm> but any mallard processor that doesn't support the links element (yelp 2) is probably going to show it as text
<Rocket2DMn> i'm surprised it even displays the document
<j1mc|afk> Rocket2DMn: can you do ctrl-l on the page you're viewing
<j1mc|afk> it will tell you the page id
<shaunm> outside of a comment, "-->" doesn't mean anything, really. an xml parser just treats it as text
<jbicha_> it's index.page
<Rocket2DMn> yeah its #index
<j1mc|afk> oh, i see it... res/unity-dash-intro.png"/>-->
<Rocket2DMn> shaunm, that depends on your XML parser, having a stray > or < anywhere will cause a strict parser to fail validation
<j1mc|afk> Rocket2DMn: my bad
<Rocket2DMn> it would need to be escaped to be valid text, like &lt; or &gt;
<Rocket2DMn> j1mc|afk, does it show the stray string in yelp3 at all?
<j1mc|afk> no
<Rocket2DMn> sweet, then no harm no foul i guess
<shaunm> there really should not be well-formedness differences between parsers. not saying there aren't, but there shouldn't be
<j1mc|afk> yeah, and i doubt people are going to be viewing the natty help in yelp if they aren't running natty
<j1mc|afk> sorry... s/natty/11.04  :)
<j1mc|afk> shaunm: ^^
<j1mc|afk> :)
 * shaunm looks at the xml spec
<Rocket2DMn> shaunm, IMHO, stray open and close brackets = invalid XML = fail parsing
<Rocket2DMn> but since yelp is forgiving, we got off easy :)
<jbicha_> do you have a tool to check our XML syntax?
<shaunm> http://www.w3.org/TR/xml/#syntax
<shaunm> section 2.4. > does not have to be escaped, except when in the string "]]>"
<jbicha_> using yelp is a pain when I have to figure out which tag I forgot to close
<shaunm> jbicha_: xmllint
<Rocket2DMn> jbicha_, a lot of IDEs have XML validation capabilities
<Rocket2DMn> shaunm, ?
<Rocket2DMn> shaunm, i see "The right angle bracket (>) may be represented using the string " &gt; ", and MUST, for compatibility, be escaped using either " &gt; " or "...
<shaunm> it MAY be represented as &gt;
<shaunm> it only MUST be when part of "]]>" inside a CDATA
<Rocket2DMn> ah, i see, that wording is a bit confusing
<shaunm> most spec wording is
<j1mc|afk> shaunm: when i have that extra --> in emacs, nxml-mode doesn't show it as invalid.
<j1mc|afk> i guess i should use xmllint or jing to validate the docs to be sure.
<shaunm> j1mc|afk: I fixed all the validity errors. how do I make a patch and give it to you?
<j1mc|afk> shaunm: bzr diff > patches-for-the-ubuntu.txt
<shaunm> oh, how old-school
<j1mc|afk> it works! :)
<j1mc|afk> if you were all launchpad-y, i would have you do a merge proposal on launchpad, but . . .  a diff is fine.
<j1mc|afk> just email that to the docs list
<shaunm> oops
<shaunm> I already emailed it to you
<j1mc|afk> or to . . . me or something
<j1mc|afk> ok
<shaunm> sorry, I'm trigger-happy
<j1mc|afk> me is fine. i know someone on the docs team who can commit it.
<j1mc|afk> he is a good friend
<j1mc|afk> and very handsome
<shaunm> yeah?
<j1mc|afk> ok... i'm gonna go try this 'chilling out' thing again
<j1mc|afk> i will rap at you all later
<shaunm> you mean John?
<j1mc|afk> John. yes, him.  :)
#ubuntu-doc 2011-04-23
<jbicha_> shaunm: are you around?
<jbicha_> oh, nm I just found https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=647713 and was wondering what shaunm was doing on my computer
<ubot2> Gnome bug 647713 in DocBook "Hardcoded docbook dtd gives I/O warnings" [Critical,Resolved: fixed]
<shaunm> jbicha_: it's a feature. everybody is now expected to be called shaunm
<shaunm> it's part of my evil plan to take over the world
<shaunm> using, um, documentation
<shaunm> but the plan is reeeeeally evil, so it'll probably work
<jbicha_> lol
<jbicha_> so, 11 possible indicators not counting appmenu in the default install
<jbicha_> 12
<jbicha_> I put 8 in the guide, and there's drop privileges, plus tomboy, transmission, & accessibility can be activated
<jbicha_> that's an impressive number for trying to reduce clutter :-)
<mdke> jbicha_: I added a tool yesterday to check validity, you can run ./check_validity.sh name-of-file.page in the gnome-help directory
<mdke> or rather, in the gnome-help/C directory
<mdke> shaunm: thanks for fixing all those errors - brilliant
<mdke> jbicha_: sorry, the script is actually ./check_validation.sh
<mdke> shaunm: how difficult is it to build html from mallard using your xsl without installing yelp-tools? could it be done using xsltproc in a simple/simplish makefile?
<jbicha_> mdke: um, your scrpt assumes I have that .rng file in the same place as you
<jbicha_> but it's a nice idea
<jbicha_> mdke: just use /usr/share/xml/mallard/1.0/mallard.rng instead
<mdke> jbicha_: no, the rng file is actually added to the bzr repo
<mdke> jbicha_: and it is modified so I can't use the one you refer to
<jbicha_> oh there it is, cool
<jbicha_> I found a 13th indicator in the default install, keyboard layouts
<jbicha_> does anyone have a fingerprint reader? the fingerprint reader page needs updated or stubbed
<mdke> I have one. But I've never used it
<mdke> jbicha_: just looking at your clock patch. One small comment - avoid changing line breaks only if you are not making any other change to a particular section. Adding line breaks will make it more difficult to merge from upstream.
<mdke> (if it happens to be a document which we might want to sync with upstream in the future)
<mdke> it's good practice to use line breaks when writing, though
<jbicha_> ok, I know upstream was going to be adding line breaks but good point as they probably won't be at the same places
<mdke> jbicha_: another comment - I see that you've put the info on changing timezone into clock-set.page, and removed it from clock-timezone.page. Isn't it better to have it in the latter place and use the former for changing the time?
<jbicha_> I believe when users want to change the time, they actually want to change the timezone or have the time set automatically
<jbicha_> showing alternate timezones is an extra feature and can be on its own page
<mdke> ok, I would tend to put them on the same page. gtg for now, I'll finish reviewing later
<peppe84> Hi. I have perform a dist-upgrade today on natty. I see the changelog of ubuntu-docs and it include libreoffice and banshee. But if I open yelp I see Oo.org and Rhytmbox. This is normal or we need to open a bug?
<jbicha_> peppe84: Press Ctrl+L in your Help browser and tell us what the page name is
<jbicha_> hm, it does look like the Classic help has not been fully updated
<peppe84> jbicha_, hi. is ghelp:office and music
<jbicha_> Since we have only a few people and not much time before release, we've been mostly working to update the new help
<peppe84> this is right. If you would I can open a bug in order to work on this later and with calm ;-)
<jbicha_> I think it's a known issue so we don't necessarily need a bug but we do accept patches from anyone :-)
<peppe84> no idea. revision 96 contain this edit on office.xml and music.xml http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-branches/ubuntu/natty/ubuntu-docs/natty/revision/97#office/C/office.xml
<jbicha_> peppe84: you're right, I'm trying to figure out why the last update didn't work right
<jbicha_> peppe84: what is your system locale?
<peppe84> uhm. I use italian lang-pack. On your english system is right?
<jbicha_> it is correct in C, which is basically US English
<jbicha_> UK English, which I'm using for fun, has the old OpenOffice/Rhythmbox
<jbicha_> the other language packs haven't been updated and since they have Classic help translated
<jbicha_> it's broken there
<peppe84> oh
<jbicha_> I sent an email to the ubuntu-doc list so we definitely know about the issue, thank you!
<peppe84> :-)
<mdke> peppe84: when the langpacks are updated you will see the new strings in English
<mdke> translated help is not included in the ubuntu-docs package
<mdke> eventually, once the translations have been imported, and new langpacks generated, you will see the translated strings
<mdke> but that will take some weeks
<mdke> jbicha_: I'll merge your branch but if you could correct the validity errors in unity-appmenu-intro.page and clock-calendar.page in your next commit, that would be helpful - let me know and I'll merge it again then
<mdke> jbicha_: good work though
<peppe84> I'll do :-)
<jbicha_> mdke: ok, it passes validation now
<Rocket2DMn> good morning
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, yesterday you uploaded a build for gnome-user-docs right? What about ubuntu-docs?
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: day before yesterday I think
<Rocket2DMn> awesome
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, do you know what needs to be dne for bug for bug 734958
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 734958 in ubuntu-docs "switching not translatable" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/734958
<duanedesign> hello Rocket2DMn
<Rocket2DMn> hey duanedesign , what's kickin man?
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: it's almost not worth fixing - we don't include the switching guide in ubuntu-docs (even in Lucid - it is only available on the website) and translators are pretty unlikely to look at Lucid stuff now
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: in order to fix it we would need to ask the Launchpad Translation admins to upload the template manually somewhere as it doesn't appear in the ubuntu-docs package
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, i assume the same would apply then to bug 739822
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 739822 in ubuntu-docs "2 IE8 lines not translatable" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/739822
<Rocket2DMn> so should we close them as wont fix, or do you want to assign them to the translation admins?
<mdke> I don't understand the second bug
<mdke> perhaps the pot file on Launchpad is not up to date
<mdke> I could fix that one easily enough
<Rocket2DMn> those strings arent even in the docs anymore as far as i can tell, i think they are from the switching or windows sections that we dont have anymore.  This was part of exporting favorties to be used in FF
<mdke> I'll look at the second bug and will close the first one as "won't fix"
<Rocket2DMn> we did ship the "windows" section
<Rocket2DMn> ok, thanks mdke
<Rocket2DMn> jjesse, are you there?
<shaunm> mdke: the hardest part is building a cache file to resolve the xrefs
<shaunm> once you have one, it's 'xsltproc --xinclude --stringparam mal.cache.file /path/to/index.cache myfile.page'
<shaunm> oh, well, wait
<shaunm> using my customizations, that's a little trickier
<shaunm> um, and even what I wrote is wrong
<shaunm> xsltproc --xinclude --stringparam mal.cache.file /path/to/index.cache /path/to/mal2html.xsl myfile.page
<shaunm> so what you have to do with my customization outside of yelp-tools is one of 1) put an xsl:import statement inside of it for mal2html.xsl, or 2) create a second xsl file that xsl:imports mal2html.xsl and xsl:includes the customization file
<shaunm> the way yelp-build works, it allows you to pass an xslt file with customizations without worrying about the path to the main xslt file
<shaunm> and it creates a wrapper xslt on the fly that imports the main xslt and includes the customization
<shaunm> anyway, if yelp-xsl is in a standard place, then yelp-build is a standalone script. why don't you just take a built copy of yelp-build and stick it in your bzr repo?
<mdke> shaunm: good plan
<mdke> shaunm: thanks again
<mdke> j1mc: heya - I am having a go at some chat material
<mdke> j1mc: I wasn't sure whether you were already working on it though
<j1mc> mdke: no, i'm not working on it.
<j1mc> thanks for your help.  :)
<mdke> cool
<mdke> j1mc: I will need you to review it though, I'm feeling my way with Mallard, especially the linking
<j1mc> sure
<j1mc> you'll just propose a merge?
<mdke> maybe, or just commit directly and point you towards the revision :)
<j1mc> that would be fine
<mdke> j1mc: if you have time and inclination, a mini to-do list would be very helpful, that way people can assign themselves and ensure no duplication of work
<mdke> I'm not 100% sure what needs work and the number of files in there is rather overwhelming
<j1mc> would the wiki be a good spot for that? when we were working on the gnome docs, we used a gobby session, and found it to be very useful for short-term stuff like that
<mdke> yes, wiki I think
<mdke> tell me, was thought given to using sub-folders rather than dropping everything in one place?
<mdke> I think I raised this once on the gnome list but can't remember what became of the discussion
<j1mc> i think that is a mallard + yelp search issue.
<j1mc> ... actually, i think it might be both an issue with search + auto-linking
<shaunm> it's just a performance thing. the more places yelp has to look for pages, the slower it's going to be
<j1mc> for the auto-linking to work, i think the files need to be in the same dir
<mdke> I see
<mdke> right, the auto-linking doesn't work to other ghelp documents
<j1mc> shaunm: the auto-linking can work w/o the files being in the same dir?
<shaunm> j1mc: well, yes, if yelp happens to know that those directories belong to the same document
<mdke> I was thinking of using separate documents
<shaunm> yelp looks in a handful of directories for any given document id
<j1mc> how is that specified?
<shaunm> um, $XSD_DATA_DIRS and $LANG
<shaunm> not stuff you should mess with
<shaunm> but if you want to, try sticking a pages in ~/.local/share/gnome/help/gnome-help/C/
<shaunm> it will show up when you do yelp ghelp:gnome-help
<j1mc> right... but... for example, yelp points to a certain directory to open the help... is that determined by $XSD_DATA_DIRS and LANG?
<shaunm> oh, if you just give it a directory or a filename, like most of us do when we're just testing, it only reads pages from a single directory
<j1mc> i thought there was some kind of dconf or gconf key now
<shaunm> when it gets a ghelp: or a help: URI, it builds a path of directories to look in, based on datadirs and your language setting
<j1mc> ok
<j1mc> mdke: the ghelp links don't provide auto-linking back like xref links, do. so, even if we link to empathy's mallard-based help, the empathy doc won't link back to the ubuntu help that links to it
<j1mc> ... i'm not sure why i put a comma after "links."  :)
<j1mc> shaunm: we need for href links to provide links back... even for web pages. so if i link to <link href="http://www.google.com">google</link>, Google will link back to my mallard help file.
<j1mc> maybe.
<shaunm> I'll get on that :P
<j1mc> :)
<mdke> understood
<j1mc> mdke: i agree we have a lot of files in there. one thing we'll want to clean up is use of "shell-xyz" file names and page id's.
<j1mc> i tried to do some of that, but after a while i was more concerned about breaking things
<mdke> yes, that's one for next release I guess
<j1mc> mdke: did you see my message to the list about when we should stop committing to the natty branch? do you have any kind of cutoff in mind?
<mdke> yes, I've sent my thoughts
<Rocket2DMn> ahh peppe84 = Giuseppe...?
<mdke> yes
<j1mc> mdke: nm, i see you replied.  :)
<Rocket2DMn> that clears some stuff up
<peppe84__> Rocket2DMn, am I :-)
<j1mc> hi peppe84__
<j1mc> hi jbicha
<mdke> is there a maximum number of paragraphs a Mallard page can have before it needs <section> tags?
<Rocket2DMn> cool peppe84__ , thanks for the patches
<j1mc> mdke: good question. i don't believe so.
<mdke> net-chat-skype.page:17: element p: Relax-NG validity error : Expecting element section, got p
<mdke> shaunm: any ideas?
<mdke> no, cancel that
<mdke> it's just a very bad error message from xmllint
<jbicha> not according to the validation thing
<jbicha> mdke: I had that problem earlier, I moved a comment to a different location
<mdke> jbicha: I had invited a tag :) But it was nothing to do with the error message, it was way down at the end of the document
<shaunm> yeah, um, you'll often see the message "expecting element ..., got ..."
<jbicha> yeah, the comment was at the bottom of the page, which I didn't think should be wrong...
<shaunm> you should read that as "something around that element, or maybe way before it, or possibly way after it, is invalid in some way or another, which I'm not telling you about"
<mdke> shaunm: that's about right. The error messages are much more cryptic than with docbook
<shaunm> well, more accurately, xmllint's rng error messages are more cryptic than its dtd error messages
<shaunm> if you validated docbook 5 against its rng, you'd find it equally as frustrating
 * mdke nods
<j1mc> i have heard that 'jing' is better at validating xml that is based on a relaxng schema than xmllint. installing it pulls in a lot of java-related dependencies, though.
<j1mc> i obviously haven't used it much, though.
<shaunm> jing does tend to have better error messages
<Rocket2DMn> Why don't we just link to the MD5SUMS files on this page - https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuHashes
<Rocket2DMn> seems a lot easier than manually adding the hashes
<Rocket2DMn> we can also remove the unsupported versions
<Rocket2DMn> (was just looking at bug 729609)
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 729609 in ubuntu-docs "The UbuntuHashes page (https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuHashes) does not have the Kubuntu/Xubuntu 10.04.2 hashes" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/729609
<jbicha> Latest design blog says "top menu bar": http://design.canonical.com/2011/04/unity-benchmark-usability-april-2011/
<j1mc> jbicha: we'll do it live! top menu bar panel.
<j1mc> jbicha: i am fixing to do what phil bull suggested... ask strangers what they would call it.
<jbicha> top menu bar is kind of cute since we're calling the indicators menus anyway
<jbicha> my wife says "menu bar", but "I'm not going to call it nothing", lol
<shaunm> j1mc: I like "top menu bar panel"
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: because they are not hosted on an https server
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: (re Hashes)
<shaunm> remember that when we asked strangers about the top bar in gnome, we got pretty much a 50/50 split between "top bar" and "top panel"
<jbicha> panel sounds redundant to me if you throw in the word bar
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, fair enough
<mdke> I still like the idea of teaching people terminology
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, what do i need to change in order to do an "official" build of the docs that could be deployed to h.u.c? I found the change for draft.mode, but it seems like something else is missing, the diff is still too large
<Rocket2DMn> it looks like a value is off, using 10.04 instead of 10.10 (building the maverick branch)
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: I can't think of anything offhand, but will be working on html builds over the coming days
<Rocket2DMn> i think i found it actually
<Rocket2DMn> the ubuntu-banner.xsl is still referencing 10.04
<Rocket2DMn> i guess when you built the maverick docs to huc, you didnt commit that - they are correct in the huc branch, just not in maverick ubuntu-docs
<Rocket2DMn> looks like there is also a css style in the html files for draft stuff that shouldnt be there
<jbicha> mdke: but we're making up the terminology as we go, panel doesn't really mean anything in particular in Unity or Gnome Shell
<jbicha> teaching people "indicators" is probably good but the Design names are usually like "Me Menu" or "Session Menu" anyway
<mdke> jbicha: if there is no terminology to teach, obviously we can't do that. But people will understand both "top panel" and "top bar", regardless of whether they think of one or the other when first asked about it
<mdke> jbicha: but I/'m in favour of teaching them the terminology of the "Me Menu" and so on because the design people choose the names on purpose and users will read about them elsewhere on the internet
<Rocket2DMn> hmm, dont seem to be getting alerts from the maverick branch, its sending emails or attaching to bug reports
<Rocket2DMn> its not*
<mdke> j1mc, jbicha - do we have anything about using gwibber from the Me or Messaging Menus?
<j1mc> mdke: i don't think so.
<j1mc> the folks from the vancouver loco team re-licensed their gwibber manual as cc-by-sa-3.0 per our request.
<j1mc> maybe you could take some info from there, if there is anything applicable
<mdke> ok, will add something about that in the chat section
<mdke> it would be cool to add icons in the unity-appmenu-intro.page to what each of the menus looks like. It shouldn't be necessary to add anything to the package, we can just link to the icons on the user's system like we did in newtoubuntu.xml in ubuntu-docs
<j1mc> you mean, icons for the networking, bluetooth, etc? that would be a good idea.
<j1mc> i think we can do some cleanup on our figures directory, too. purge the stuff that isn't being used.
<mdke> yes, exactly that
<j1mc> i wish we had a way to check for broken image links, too. it shouldn't be too hard to add that to yelp-check
<j1mc> ok - i need to step out for a bit. have a good day/evening, all.
<Rocket2DMn> anyone know if bug 328700 is still applicable?
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 328700 in ubuntu-docs "Various spelling mistakes in Dutch translation" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/328700
<Rocket2DMn> seeya j1mc
<peppe84> I have think that is possible replace the old nautilus image present in ghelp:user-guide?nautilus. what do you think about? :-)
<mdke> peppe84: probably not worth it. That document is only used by a handful of applications now, we have included it for backwards compatibility but it will disappear next release
<mdke> nautilus doesn't use it for help
<mdke> damn, gwibber doesn't have a manual
<Rocket2DMn> hey, i'm thinking bug 497834 is something we should be able to do.  Response #5 looks ok, I just don't know anything about dealing with pdfs, so idk how to force that mockup to be used as the frontpage of the serverguide pdf
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 497834 in ubuntu-docs "Ubuntu Server Guide isn't aesthetically appealing." [Wishlist,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/497834
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: it could be tricky based on our current pdf toolchain - but I haven't looked into whether fop allows you to add a frontpage in that way.
<mdke> shaunm: can I run something past you?
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, i would think there is a tool to let you insert pdf pages into another, but again, ive never tried
<Rocket2DMn> i dont even have those tools installed to build the pdf
<mdke> shaunm: actually nm, I see that j1mc has already thought of it before me, sorry to trouble you
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, on bug 540896, I don't have an IE7 anywhere to use for updating directions.  Statistics indicate that only 5.4% of internet users are using IE7 (and falling), so it's probably not worth updating.
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 540896 in ubuntu-docs "Windows - Press "Favorites" is confusing for XP users and IE7 path is incorrect" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/540896
<Rocket2DMn> would you prefer to do nothing, or should i just delete the section on IE7?
<Rocket2DMn> see https://help.ubuntu.com/10.04/switching/C/preparing-bookmarks.html
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: I don't have a strong view
<Rocket2DMn> alright, i'll run out and grab me some dinner and think about
<Rocket2DMn> thanks
<mdke> jbicha: we should get you commit access asap - you are doing great work and I think enough patches have been reviewed by now to show you know what you are doing and deserve access
<jbicha> mdke: ok cool
<mdke> jbicha: could you have a look at this page and just make sure you have read the documents referenced there:
<mdke> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Organization#Requirements%20for%20Ubuntu%20Documentation%20Committers
#ubuntu-doc 2011-04-24
<jbicha> hmm, Gnome Documentation Style Guide for 2.32 says no contractions but the 3.0 documentation has lots
<mdke> that is probably rather out of date...
<jbicha> ok, I've read through the various documentations
<jbicha> I had actually applied to bug-control a year ago but I don't think I had enough contributions then to get it
<jbicha> but in the past few months, I've done a good amount of triaging & forwarding appropriate bugs upstream
<mdke> jbicha: great, thanks
<Rocket2DMn> being in bugcontrol is perhaps one of the most useful memberships there is on LP for ubuntu
<jbicha> yeah, not being in bugcontrol can be annoying at times
<Rocket2DMn> i wish i could accept/reject release nominations in bugs for ubuntu-docs though
<mdke> :)
<mdke> those permissions are really screwed up
<mdke> for example, membership of the CC gives me that power, but there is no rational reason for me to have it
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, they should give more fine grained control over it, i think anybody in core-doc should be able to manage any of the ubuntu-docs package bugs like that
<Rocket2DMn> ive nominated a handful of bugs today for different releases
<Rocket2DMn> in most cases the changes are already made to the branches
<mdke> is there a way to get notifications of nominations for a package? I have no idea what bugs have outstanding nominations
<Rocket2DMn> no, we dont get email notifications
<Rocket2DMn> you can look at nominations though
<Rocket2DMn> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+nominations?field.searchtext=ubuntu-docs
<Rocket2DMn> s/lucid/whatever
<mdke> ok.
<mdke> I'm off to bed - catch you soon
<Rocket2DMn> gnight mdke
<jbicha> good night
#ubuntu-doc 2012-04-16
<mhall119> bkerensa: jbicha: ping
<bkerensa> mhall119:  pong
<mhall119> bkerensa: any progress on who we should include in 12.04 documentation credits?
<mhall119> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PrecisePangolin/ReleaseNotes/Credits/DocsTeam
<bkerensa> mhall119: let me go make that list real quick I need to just go through and harvest names of people who have merged
<mhall119> thanks bkerensa
<bkerensa> mhall119: You just want Ubuntu Doc Contributors or other variants?
<bkerensa> what about Server?
<bkerensa> :)
<mhall119> if you have people who worked on the server guide, please include them too
<mhall119> Darkwing: were you going to add Kubuntu doc contributors?
<bkerensa> mhall119: I am just going to grab Kubuntu's too
<jbicha> bkerensa: thanks
<mhall119> thanks bkerensa
<bkerensa> mhall119: http://paste.ubuntu.com/932990/
<bkerensa> mhall119: I just went over the authors/commits of all the dev branches for Ubuntu/Kubuntu/Xubuntu (no idea about Lubuntu)
<mhall119> bkerensa: feel free to add them directly to the wiki
<mhall119> or I can do that if you'd rather
<bkerensa> mhall119: :P you are a hoot :P ok i will
<mhall119> but since I have no idea who should be there, it's not like going through me adds anything
<bkerensa> mhall119: cool its up there
<mhall119> you  rock bkerensa
<Darkwing> Thanks bkerensa
<Darkwing> and thanks mhall119 That was on my todo list for the day.
#ubuntu-doc 2012-04-17
<jbicha> mdke: ping
<mdke> jbicha: (In case I'm not around at the moment, please provide a bit of information about what you want and I will respond when I get back)
<jbicha> dpm: are you still around?
<dpm> jbicha, yeah, but I might be not too responsive as I'm on a couple of other tasks, but feel free to ask if I can help in anything :)
<dpm> it seems I'm not the only one not being responsive this evening :P
<artnay> so, umh, I was about to create localized screenshots but I guess it's not worth it, right?
<jbicha> dpm: what magic do you do to get your ubuntu-docs localized site to work? just make'ing the html folder isn't enough
<dpm> jbicha, ah, you have to do the make install and then have the right apache config set up. Let me see if I can share the config file with you.
<jbicha> artnay: it's still worth it for the first precise SRU
<jbicha> dpm: do you know who at Canonical we'd need to talk to, to get that setup for help.ubuntu.com?
<jbicha> the html itself is stored at https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-doc/ubuntu-docs/help.ubuntu.com
<dpm> jbicha, I've no clue, but I can probably find out, give me a minute (I'm about to leave, so it might have to wait until tomorrow if I don't manage in time)
<jbicha> tomorrow's fine, it'd be nice to get it figured out by release day is all
<dpm> jbicha, I've asked and I'm waiting for the response. I'm thinking it will probably be a matter of filing a request ticket on rt.ubuntu.com
<artnay> jbicha: great. could you and/or dpm send a message with (screenshot localization) instructions to mailing lists a few weeks before SRU gets released? that way translators will be able to translate updated (fixed) strings and provide localized screenshots.
<dpm> jbicha, I've been told the thing to do is to file an RT on rt.ubuntu.com with the request, making sure you stress that you need it by release day. Here's the relevant part of the config I've got on my test site: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/934364/
<dpm> the important parts are the MultiViews directive and everything under DirectoryIndex
<jbicha> dpm: are you putting all the .html files in the same directory or does MultiViews handle that?
<dpm> jbicha, yes, I put all the html files in the same directory. The 'make install' rule takes care of that.
<dpm> that's the format MultiViews expects
<dpm> artnay, yes, it makes sense, will do.
<jbicha> ooh, INSTALLDIR is set to /var/www, at least running as a normal user didn't affect that
<dpm> yeah, I use sudo make install as I'd do for a desktop app
<jbicha> well we don't want or need the html to go there for the website
<dpm> ah, that's where it lives on the test site, but the variable can be changed in the makefile or overriden when invoking make
<dpm> I just set it up for my purposes, but it makes sense to adapt it to the actual docs installation on h.u.c
<dpm> and I'm a bit rusty on autotools/make foo, so any improvements to the makefile are welcome :)
<jbicha> dpm: did you see that ubuntu-docs was uploaded about 2 hours ago? is that going to be in time for the deadline?
<dpm> jbicha, yeah, I noticed it after I sent the e-mail. Not sure if it will make it. One thing that might play to our advantage is that the translated xml files are imported relatively quickly in LP, so we might be lucky. We'll get to know tomorrow at about 8:00UTC, when the language pack export finishes
<mdke> hi jbicha, what's the status?
<jbicha> mdke: howdy, seb128 uploaded ubuntu-docs was uploaded two hours ago
<jbicha> it's unclear whether ubuntu-docs made the langpack deadline or not though :(
<mdke> jbicha: was it in time for the translations, do you know?
<mdke> damn
<mdke> jbicha: thanks for doing what you could
<mdke> jbicha: sorry again for my misunderstanding of the release
<mdke> schedule
<jbicha> yeah, the schedule there is confusing, but on the other hand, freezes are supposed to happen at 2100 UTC so we were 3 hours early
<mdke> were you dealing with pitti? if so I expect all will be well
<jbicha> well he said good night three hours ago, 17:43 UTC, I suppose we'll see what happens in the morning then
<mdke> ok
<mdke> fyi I've started building a new help.ubuntu.com with the new theme, although there is plenty of work still to do on it. I'm going through the various releases building new html with the new theme.
#ubuntu-doc 2012-04-18
<peppe84> Hi doc-team
<peppe84> Building today the serverguide I don't understand why the html file are present in root directory instead /build/serverguide/LN/. nothing serious, just move the files in the right position. I have try whit revision 81 (the last). thanks in advance.
<Darkwing> jbicha, mdke, FYI, We are having issues with the docs on the Kubuntu side... we will have to do more with an SRU. just FYI
<peppe84> Sorry again: I have found a dead link here: http://91.189.93.101/a11y-contrast.html is a know issue?
#ubuntu-doc 2012-04-20
<Darkwing> jbicha: ping
<jbicha> Darkwing: aloha
<Darkwing> jbicha: RE the 12.04.1 release... am I the David named in that email? :P
<jbicha> Darkwing: no, sorry, that's dpm
<Darkwing> jbicha: But we should talk about the 12.04.1 doc schedule...
<jbicha> I forgot there were two David's, he is in the To: line though
<Darkwing> so that translators have a bit more time.
<Darkwing> hehehe
<Darkwing> it's cool
<jbicha> yeah, feel free to chime in, I thought dpm would be the one to propose the schedule since he's handled that in previous cycles
<Darkwing> You guys have a finished package for english only or, are you including any translations?
<Darkwing> I just packaged up english for the point release. 12.04.1 will hold translations.
<jbicha> ubuntu-docs includes the translations, which get stripped out and added to the language packs
<Darkwing> ahhhh.
<jbicha> it should do the same for kubuntu-docs though, shouldn't it?
<Darkwing> In a sense... except nothing on our wnd got translated...
<jbicha> I thought it was automatic for -main packages, and opt-in for -universe packages
<jbicha> mdke: how do you build the installation-guide html?
#ubuntu-doc 2012-04-21
<jbicha> I tried to duplicate dpm's http://91.189.93.101 but it shows up in Catalan by default
 * jbicha looks suspiciously at dpm...
<jbicha> ah, there we go, I needed to allow overrides
<wylde> I've provided a few patches for Bug #977260 #978973 #975899 #975890 #975813 if someone could check on them please.
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 977260 in ubuntu-docs "Extra > in string 127" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/977260
<jbicha> wylde: thanks so much for working on those
<jbicha> I'm just waiting to hear back from dpm (maybe Monday?) about the ubuntu-docs/translation schedule before committing those
<wylde> jbicha: thanks :) I hope I did them correctly, first attempt. That's why I chose very easy ones.
<jbicha> oh wow, dpm's html help takes up a whole lot of space, it went from 6 MB to 278 MB
<jbicha> mdke: do you have a good web connection?
<mdke> jbicha: reasonable, why?
<mdke> jbicha: on your question on the installation-guide, there should be instructions in the Makefile, but I haven't yet managed to get it to work with the new theme
<mdke> I have no idea why it doesn't work
<jbicha> mdke: just that help.ubuntu.com will take a bit longer the next time you bzr pull or push the ubuntu-help part
<mdke> jbicha: that's ok, I've done it already today and it was ok
<mdke> unless you're referring to a commit you've done today rather than yesterday's
<jbicha> today's
<mdke> ah, I'll see then
<jbicha> I couldn't find the build instructions in the installation-guide source
<mdke> I mean the ubuntu-docs Makefile
<mdke> have a look at the "install" target in the natty Makefile
<mdke> I have spent quite a while banging my head against it with the new theme xsl to no avail
<mdke> jbicha: fyi I've pushed a new branch for tracking the help.ubuntu.com theme update, that way it doesn't go to the website straight away and it can go live at the same time. It's lp:~ubuntu-core-doc/ubuntu-docs/help.ubuntu.com-themeupdate
<jbicha> the installation-guide part? because the desktop guide and the server guide look fine to me
<mdke> yes, just the installation-guide part
<jbicha> mdke: by the way, C.css uses the same style for unordered lists as for ordered lists
<jbicha> mdke: to be more specific, I can build the installation-guide html but I get pages like ch01s01.html.en instead of what-is-ubuntu.html
#ubuntu-doc 2012-04-22
<mdke> jbicha: would you mind committing to the help.ubuntu.com-themeupdate generally so that we don't have to keep amending to keep the two in sync? Then we can merge to the main branch on go-live date
<mdke> jbicha: another question, it seems a bit strange to me to have all the languages in the same folder; if we are going to publish several languages on help.u.c, i would have thought it appropriate to use directories for each language (e.g. C/, fr/, it/ etc)
<mdke> jbicha: is that just the way that yelp-build does things?
<mdke> (I see that Gnome have everything in one directory too)
<jbicha> mdke: what we're shooting for is http://91.189.93.101/ Apache's MultiViews will automatically give you the correct translated version based on your browser language
<jbicha> I submitted an RT ticket today to enable that for 12.04/ubuntu-help/
<peppe84> MultiViews mode will be avaible for ubuntu-help precise only?
<mdke> jbicha: I understand, but I don't think that is incompatible with using different directories. As long as you have an index page which detects the language
<jbicha> peppe84: if it works, I think we'd enable it for 11.04 and 11.10 also, maybe the server guide too
<mdke> we used to do it in the old days with help.ubuntu.com, before we decided to avoid shipping multiple languages there
<peppe84> cool
<jbicha> mdke: hmm, so what you'd like is for MultiViews to be present for 12.04/index.html so that if a French user visits that page,
<jbicha> he'd be pointed to 12.04/ubuntu-help/fr/index.html
<mdke> jbicha: that was my thinking yes
<mdke> maybe it doesn't matter
<jbicha> that wouldn't work though if he tries to visit 12.04/ubuntu-help directly though
<mdke> true
<mdke> bbl
#ubuntu-doc 2013-04-15
<bkerensa> jbicha / godbyk : I am going to build the ubuntu docs package now and have someone sponsor its upload
<bkerensa> I have a few people I can nag for sponsorship :P
<godbyk> bkerensa: Great!
<godbyk> bkerensa: Let me know if I can do anything to help.
<bkerensa> godbyk: did he tell you what version for the changelog
<godbyk> bkerensa: And please try to document the procedure as you go along.
<bkerensa> godbyk: I assume 13.04.1?
<godbyk> bkerensa: That's what I assumed, as well.
<godbyk> bkerensa: I used the following three lines for the changelog entry:
<godbyk>   * Merged updated gnome-docs
<godbyk>   * Capitalized Dash and Launcher consistently
<godbyk>   * Bumped version numbers on the "What's new in Ubuntu 13.04?" page
<bkerensa> yeah
<bkerensa> jbicha: oh this is slower than normal package building
<bkerensa> heh
 * bkerensa might just leave this and go have a snack or something
<bkerensa> :)
<bkerensa> godbyk: building the package now
<bkerensa> \o/
<godbyk> bkerensa: Excellent!
<godbyk> bkerensa: Don't forget to bump those version numbers in the html dir.
<bkerensa> build complete without errors
<bkerensa> oh?
<bkerensa> damn
<bkerensa> :(
<godbyk> bkerensa: Yeah, I just stumbled across those tonight. Also, you'll need to take all the screenshots for the html/ stuff to build properly.
<godbyk> bkerensa: I'm not sure that the html/ dir is required for the system docs package, however. That might be solely for the website.
<jbicha> bkerensa: you should wait until at least Monday evening for the actual upload to give the translators as much time as possible
<godbyk> jbicha, bkerensa: which means you'll want to download the latest translations from launchpad a the last moment.
<bkerensa> jbicha: make: Nothing to be done for `html'.
<bkerensa> jbicha: ok well I will grab the tarball again tomorrow and rebuild again tomorrow
<bkerensa> but the build was clean anyways
<godbyk> bkerensa: cd html; make
<godbyk> bkerensa: it has its own Makefile.
<Fudge> hi guys, I have been trying to figure out how to get our documentation for vinuxproject.org into .md files and authored as malard so that we can include on our images to work with Yelp. If anyone may have blogged about this how to achieve I would love to read as my current efforts are not being very successful :D thanks
<bkerensa> jbicha: Were you expecting the build to fail btw? Because I got a successful build ;o
<godbyk> bkerensa: Since there haven't been many changes this cycle, I would expect the build to succeed since it presumably succeeded for 12.10.
<godbyk> bkerensa: There may be some failures in the translations, though. (Though again, there haven't been too many changes there either.)
<jbicha> bkerensa: if you didn't include updated translations then the build shouldn't have failed; it's the translations that cause the problems
<bkerensa> jbicha: i introduced the current tarball into the branch.... Maybe no changes were made? I havent really looked at translations
<bkerensa> jbicha: there were some warnings during the build for some translations saying they couldn't be merged (not sute what thats about) but the build succeeded
<jbicha> did you rename the .po files?
<bkerensa> jbicha: yeah :)
<jbicha> yes the translations tend to have lots of warnings, it's the errors that stop the build that are of high priority
<jbicha> maybe yelp-xsl and the other tools are more resilient to broken translations these days too
<bkerensa> hmm
<bkerensa> well thats good :)
<bkerensa> jbicha: you must be busy with a gnomebuntu
<bkerensa> ;)
<shaunm> Fudge: you author in markdown and want to convert to mallard?
<shaunm> bkerensa: regarding the warnings you get when merging translations for documents, those kinds of warnings happen when translators write something that isn't a well-formed xml fragment
<shaunm> itstool parses when merging. if it can't parse, it can't merge.
<Fudge> shaunm  thanks so much for replying, yes I am hopeful.  Am using this p
<Fudge> h
<Fudge> whoops url didnt paste: http://www.jpfleury.net/en/software/gedit-markdown.php
<Fudge> shaunm  it's very possible I am screwing something simple up, I feel like I need some hand holding at this stage loL
<shaunm> Fudge: markdown and mallard are both syntaxes. to write in one and distribute another, you need a converter
<shaunm> and now I wish I'd stuck with my work on getting mallard support into pandoc
<shaunm> I just don't know of a markdown->mallard converter right now. I'd like to know of one, if somebody has one
<Fudge> Oh right, sounds like it would be useful. May I clarify what you ahve said? If I write our stuff in Malard then I can call it with Yelp for our specific documentation to ship on images?
<shaunm> correct. Yelp has native support for Mallard, DocBook, HTML, man pages, and info pages. For anything else, you have to convert it into a format Yelp supports.
<Fudge> that is very cool mate
<bkerensa> jbicha:  Hey so slangasek will sponsor my build but I could just push the final stuff to a branch and MP it right?
<bkerensa> like do the make html and make sure the latest translations are imported and then just push that to a branch?
<jbicha> there's several different branches, if you're talking about sponsorship I'd just ask slangasek what format he'd prefer to sponsor
<jbicha> for the lp:ubuntu-docs branch, yes we need a merge proposal with the updated translations and changelog (and he could possibly just use that to sponsor from)
<bkerensa> jbicha: ok
<bkerensa-ODS> preparing final MP for raring docs
<bkerensa-ODS> sponsorship will occur tonight
<godbyk> bkerensa: Great! Thanks for your help!
#ubuntu-doc 2013-04-16
<bkerensa> =o :(
<bkerensa> I had to go home bandwidth at the conference was to slow to push docs
<bkerensa> :P
<godbyk> bkerensa: How's it going?
<bkerensa> godbyk: good 200megs or so left
<bkerensa> 257.4m to be specific =/
<bkerensa> hoping its goes fast
<godbyk> bkerensa: Did you have any problems building it?
<bkerensa> godbyk: none
<bkerensa> jbicha / godbyk : https://code.launchpad.net/~bkerensa/ubuntu/raring/ubuntu-docs/13.04/+merge/159058
<bkerensa> I have passed the MP on to slangasek who has commited to reviewing and uploading it tonight
<godbyk> Did you update the translations?
<bkerensa> godbyk: yes
<godbyk> Cool.
<bkerensa> godbyk: were good to go https://code.launchpad.net/~bkerensa/ubuntu-docs/13.04/+merge/159065
<bkerensa> good night folks!
#ubuntu-doc 2013-04-17
<Riddell> anyone know how to get doc po files into docbook?
<Riddell> for kubuntu-docs
<Atamira> Riddell, this is the wrong channel to ask
<Atamira> oh wait
<Atamira> it might be actually
<Atamira> you would be better off sending an email to the list
#ubuntu-doc 2013-04-19
<ubuntu_> hello
#ubuntu-doc 2014-04-14
<trijntje> when are the translations pulled from launchpad to build the localised docs for trusty?
<trijntje> I noticed some untranslated strings in the installed docs that were translated the 9th, did the last export happen before this date?
<slickymasterWork> *#%$@ connection
<dsmythies> trijntje: The last po file cycle for ubuntu-docs was sometime on Sunday, April 6th. See also:
<dsmythies> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TrustyTahr/ReleaseSchedule
<dsmythies> due to an very very late change in ubuntu-docs, and extra few days were added past the April 3rd deadline.
<dsmythies> So yes, A translation done on April 9th missed the deadline for 14.04, but will be in the first update release, when and if, it occurs.
<dsmythies> Are you not on the translators e-mail list? The list got updates on this.
<dsmythies> trijntje: For the Ubuntu Serverguide, the last po file export for 14.04 is in approximately 6 hours.
<trijntje> dsmythies: thanks, I missed that the exact date for the export was in that email. Too bad that trusty will ship with a bit of the docs untranslated, hopefully they will update it soon
<belkinsa> pleia2, should I leave the Doodle poll for the Doc Team's meeting open?  And if so, how  long?
<knome> belkinsa, until you announce the meeting.
<belkinsa> Which should be a week in advance?
<knome> whatever you think is a fair time
<belkinsa> Alright, I was planing to close it because there wasn't anymore responses.
#ubuntu-doc 2014-04-16
<knome> FYI, myself and IdleOne have now ops on this channel, so if you need topic changes or anything else...
#ubuntu-doc 2014-04-19
<emmetea> quick question, i was going to edit the grub2/displays page because there is an error but it is locked. who should i inform them about the error in the command syntax?
<emmetea> ping?
<phillw> emmetea: log on and you will get edit privalidges
<emmetea> i have, but the document is immutable
<emmetea> it is a simple spelling mistake, they have to find out versioning info type in "grub-install -v" rather than "grub-install -V"
<emmetea> however the command they have compiles with verbose information
<phillw> emmetea: can you post the link to the page
<emmetea> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Grub2/Displays#Installing_Splash_Images
<phillw> The installed version of GRUB on the system can be obtained by runningÂ grub-installÂ -v
<phillw> is what I see on edit?
<phillw> emmetea: ^^
<emmetea> i'm sorry i didn't understand what you meant, but yes that is the line i am talking about
<phillw> emmetea:  the flag you asked for is the one being used? "grub-install -v" rather than "grub-install -V"
<phillw> I do not see a problem when I view the page with what you have suggested ? Can you please explain what you are seeing and what the page is ?
<emmetea> i'm logged in and the page is uneditable. that line there should be a "grub-install -V" but they have "grub-install -v" the lowercase "-v" runs grub-install with verbose messaging, while "-V" shows what version of grub2 you have installed.
<emmetea> does that make sense? sorry if my english isn't great
<phillw> emmetea: try now :)
<emmetea> awesome, thank you :D i happened to notice because instead of output of "grub-install (GRUB) 2.02~beta2-9" it was a long list of things.
<phillw> emmetea: you should be able to edit that page.
<phillw> pleia2: can you get in touch with emmetea and find out why they could not make that edit for a typo?, thannks
<phillw> emmetea: pleia2 is the nearest mod I could find on the list. She will will in touch in a couple of days. If you have no reply do feel free to ping me.
<emmetea> sounds good, thanks again :)
<phillw> emmetea: and thank you for taking the time to point out an error. Typo's do happen. I hope that with you having found one you may join the docs / wiki teams... We always need people :)
<emmetea> yup, had registered, thats how i had noticed i couldn't edit it
<phillw> emmetea: most odd, I could edit it... and I'm only a mere mortal like you. hopefully pleia2 can give you a hint as to why you could not.
<phillw> She's a 'boss' :)
<phillw> emmetea: as 14.04 has just escaped into the wild as an lts... there are quite a few tired people, please be patient as they actually have some sleep before 14.10 preperations land on us all :)
<belkinsa> phillw, I would suggest to users that they log in but once they are redirected to the main page, go back to that page and do a hard refresh.  That should help them.
#ubuntu-doc 2014-04-20
<pleia2> phillw: usually when folks can't edit things it's because they either 1) didn't flush the cache in their browser or 2) their account isn't set up properly - they should review https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiGuide/Registration
<pleia2> a nickname is required in your single sign on account, and it gets that from launchpad, so to edit the wiki you need both (or linked)
<belkinsa> Happy Easter all (this includes Orthodox).
<belkinsa> pleia2, oh right, I forgot.
<belkinsa> pleia2, could it be because the user only had a Ubuntu One account and no Launchpad account?
<knome> belkinsa, that's what she said :)
<belkinsa> Oh, then I misread it.
<pleia2> probably should submit a ticket with Canonical about this, it's really tedious
 * pleia2 gets to it
<knome> meh,
<knome> then point out to them that there's a problem with the QA tracker as well
<knome> the tracker tells to "fill out a form" to login, but there is no from
<knome> *form
<knome> i believe it has something to do with people only having a ubuntu SSO when they try to log in
<pleia2> I'd open a separate ticket for that, don't want brain explode
<knome> :P
<belkinsa> lol
<knome> but it might be the same issue...
<knome> what if you try to log in to the wiki with just a ubuntu sso account?
<pleia2> I don't know if the same IS folks can handle wiki as qa tracker
<pleia2> knome: Cc:ed you on the ticket, you're welcome to add a reply re: iso tracker ;)
<knome> pleia2, gee, thanks
<knome> :P
<pleia2> I don't really understand the issue with the tracker, I've never seen it
<knome> pleia2, yeah, but you don't have a ubuntu SSO account that's not a launchpad account
<knome> i'd have to test stuff to triage that as well
<pleia2> right :)
<pleia2> I mean, I've never even had someone explain the issue they were having
<pleia2> I don't even know the symptoms, can they not post to the tracker
<pleia2> ?
<knome> they can't log in
<knome> they click log in
<knome> the tracker tells them "fill this form"
<belkinsa> shaunm, are you going to to the Open Help Conference?
<knome> but there is no form
<pleia2> so with the wiki they can log in, just can't edit
<knome> aha
<pleia2> I'd almost prefer not logging them in, at least it would be clear something is wrong ;)
<knome> but i think it's the same bug, even if a different symptom
<pleia2> instead they think "Oh, I guess my account isn't allowed to edit this page"
<knome> because i believe the "form" they should fill would be a form to register/link a launchpad account and get a username...
<pleia2> yeah
<knome> so in a way, the tracker might be one step ahead
<knome> even if it looks like it's regressing more
<pleia2> yeah
<pleia2> I still think it should be a separate bug, when bugs get big they take longer to resolve :\
<pleia2> s/bug/ticket
<knome> i guess...
<knome> i should harrass the IS a lot in the future
<knome> three tickets to file
<pleia2> we must be their two favorite people :)
<knome> absolutely
<knome> though i've noticed my pull requests have been progressing faster lately
<shaunm> belkinsa: I run the Open Help Conference
<shaunm> so yes, I plan to attend :)
<knome> shaunm, overrated. :)
<shaunm> knome: yeah, I might just open the doors for the attendees then go for a drink ;)
<knome> good idea!
<belkinsa> It seems that someone is trying to get me to go.
<belkinsa> shaunm, ^^^
<knome> belkinsa, if you can, go
<belkinsa> I need to check with my parents first, since I still live with them.
<knome> that's part of "being able"
<belkinsa> Good point.
<shaunm> belkinsa: are you the one who lives in West Chester?
<belkinsa> Yes.
<belkinsa> Why?
<shaunm> just curious, making sure I'm remembering who's who
<shaunm> nothing better than spending the weekend downtown
<shaunm> IMO
<belkinsa> Good point.
<belkinsa> Though I am down there to get to and from UC main campus two of the five days of the week.
<shaunm> belkinsa: you go all the way downtown to get to UC?
<shaunm> bus?
<shaunm> our bus system is so hub-and-spoke
<shaunm> with only one hub :/
<belkinsa> Yup, there is a express that goes to West Chester and I take the Plus to campus (and back too).  And I do agree that our system is poor and Metro needs an agreement with Butler's system
 * belkinsa hates driving
<belkinsa> shaunm, do you have any suggestions on where to park for Open Help Conference
<shaunm> belkinsa: garfield suites has a garage. not sure how much it costs
<shaunm> on sunday, though, I don't think the meters are checked, so you could just park on the street
<shaunm> or you could take the bus. the venue is maybe four blocks from the bus station
<belkinsa> I was thinking of taking the bus from Tri-Country but I think you can't use the parking lot of the old Wallmart as a park and ride.  Though I could do it from Blue Ash Campus.
<belkinsa> It's a shame that nothing as a normal city route comes to West Chester.
#ubuntu-doc 2016-04-18
<jonathan_zz> How could https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HardwareSupportComponentsScannersBrother be edited? I am trying to add a field for another printer but I cannot. Is it sourced from elsewhere?
<jonathan_zz> I cannot stay around for this, but I want to say that on that page, I can verify that the Brother MFC-235C can be used with the instructions for MFC-215C and it works for Kubuntu 16.04. Except I don't have non-root access to the scanner working yet.
<jonathan_zz> My wiki ID is xennex82 if I need to be credited for it. Regards.
#ubuntu-doc 2016-04-20
<AndChat440561> Dear ubuntu documentation team
<AndChat440561> Currently i am working on documentation translation, inprogress 12%
<AndChat440561> I am using multiple devices to translate it, from home and office
<AndChat440561> Using ubuntu at home, and windows at office. Is it okay edit .po files by multiple program? Gtranslator and poedit.
<AndChat440561> Because when i am using poedit, bazaar explorer detect additional files to add. Should I add it?
#ubuntu-doc 2016-04-21
<CrazyLemon> hey guys..did anyone build 16.04 docs on 16.04?
<CrazyLemon> just curious if everything works
<pmatulis> CrazyLemon: why not take a look?
<CrazyLemon> pmatulis well..i really dont wanna play with it if it doesnt work :)
<pmatulis> CrazyLemon: run it virtually if you're nervous
<CrazyLemon> pmatulis virtually?
<CrazyLemon> there is also a 'bug' in the docs https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu/xenial/+source/ubuntu-docs/+pots/ubuntu-help/sl/188/+translate
<CrazyLemon> there is no such thing as 'Software'.. it was renamed to 'Ubuntu Software'
<pmatulis> CrazyLemon: please open a bug if you have the chance
<CrazyLemon> pmatulis k
<pmatulis> thank you CrazyLemon
<CrazyLemon> i see also some duplicate string
<CrazyLemon> will also check them and open a bug about that
#ubuntu-doc 2017-04-21
<ChaiTRex> What is the best way to report that the Installation/MinimalCD wiki page (https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Installation/MinimalCD) doesn't include links or hashes for 17.04 yet?
#ubuntu-doc 2018-04-16
<jfh> hello - can someone give me an idea on how I can contribute to the installation guide(s)?
<jfh> I especially want to contribute to the s390x version of the inst. Guide
<jfh> Found in between a link to the DocTeam: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam but looks like the focus there is mainly Desktop,  Server Guide and Ubuntu Manuals - am I wrong?
<pleia2> hi jfh, do you have a link to what you're trying to contribute to? that will help me figure out where to contribute
<pleia2> +where to send you to to contribute
<jfh> I want to contribute to the 18.04 versions of: https://help.ubuntu.com/16.04/installation-guide/
<jfh> especially the "s390x (IBM System z)" version
<jfh> I konw howto contribute to the server guide (and did recently) but it looks the it's different for the installation guide
<pleia2> yeah, let's see where the source for that is
<pleia2> so it looks like this is a fork of the Debian Installation documentation, which is here http://d-i.alioth.debian.org/manual/
<jfh> pleia2: well, there are lot's of things I would like to change (or to have changed) - I copied and mod. the 16.04 version already and put it temp. into this wiki
<jfh> for 18.04 I would like to have it smoother and in the official guide ...
<pleia2> do you know if the changes you're looking to make on s390x also apply to the version there?
<pleia2> (still looking for the source for the Ubuntu version though)
<jfh> pleia2: most of them, but I assume not all - since the d-i in Ubuntu can be slightly different  ...
 * pleia2 nods
<jfh> pleia2: I was a bit naive and thought it's similar to contributing to the Server Guide, but it obviously isn't ...
<pleia2> no, it seems not
<pleia2> I don't know the answer to your question and I'm having trouble finding it, can you join the ubuntu-doc mailing list and ask there?
<pleia2> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-doc
<pleia2> low traffic, and good to be on if you're contributing to documentation anyway
<jfh> pleia2: ok, will do and try there - thx
<pleia2> sure, good luck
<jfh> ;-)
#ubuntu-doc 2018-04-19
<bwright> Hello.
