#ubuntu-doc 2005-04-11
<mdke> OMG LOL
<mdke> awesome email to the list
<Burgundavia> ?
<mdke> the birthday email
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> is that for real?
<mdke> i assume the guy just sent it to the whole mailbox
<Burgundavia> I have a few of those things sitting around from other friends
<Burgundavia> great way to get rich through advertising
<mdke> i get ones saying "please add your contact details to this website"
<mdke> i tell them that I'm no longer their friend
<Burgundavia> I am eventually going to do the same thing for myself, but on my own server, as part of my own calendering system
<mdke> you're far too organised
<Burgundavia> yes
<mdke> ;)
<Burgundavia> I want to run a Hula server when it hits the repos
<jsgotangco> hello
<Burgundavia> salut
<jsgotangco> hi
<Burgundavia> hello
<Burgundavia> hmm
<Burgundavia> testing the various irc functions
<Burgundavia> ctcp clientinfo didn't return anything
<jsgotangco> maybe its because i am in a firewall?
<Burgundavia> could be
<Flonne> Feel free to test things on me. (irssi)
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco: I even got your mhz
<jsgotangco> eh?
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco- VERSION xchat 2.4.1 Linux 2.6.10-5-686 [i686/600.78MHz] 
<jsgotangco> show it to me
<jsgotangco> hehehe
<jsgotangco> thats strange
<jsgotangco> hmm
<Burgundavia> is that real?
<jsgotangco> oh is it because i am in battery mode?
<Burgundavia> -Burgundavia- VERSION xchat 2.4.1 Linux 2.6.10-5-k7 [i686/2.21GHz] 
<jsgotangco> can you try it again?
<Burgundavia> seems to be just xchat
<Burgundavia> same thing
<jsgotangco> hmm i am in a Pentium M laptop
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco: you are in the phillipines right?
<jsgotangco> yes
<Burgundavia> clientinfo gets me nothing
<Burgundavia> hmm
<Burgundavia> what is XDCC list?
<jsgotangco> dont know much bout x-chat either
<Burgundavia> I don't know much about the general irc operation
<Burgundavia> but I am putting myself up for #ubuntu chan op
<Burgundavia> so I figure I had better learn
<jsgotangco> ooohhh
<jsgotangco> how hard could it be?
<Burgundavia> all I really have to do is kick people
<jsgotangco> lol
<jsgotangco> are u familiar with po files?
<Burgundavia> not really
<Burgundavia> I don't speak any other languages fluently, so I haven't bothered learning
<jsgotangco> well that's one thing to consider
<jsgotangco> but im taking a stab on this one i just dont know if words that start with & also need to be translated like for example &conventions
<jsgotangco> my guess is no
<Burgundavia> no, I think those are docbook variable
<Burgundavia> s
<jsgotangco> i guessed the same
<Flonne> Those are environment variables defined by the include-like statements at the top, jsgotangco.
<jsgotangco> i see
<Flonne> In the case of &conventions;, it should link to libs/conventions.xml (iirc), though I'm not sure if that link is to the English file or not. (You'd have to ask froud or someone else)
<Flonne> I know DocBook, but I don't fully understand this system yet. ^^
<jsgotangco> thanks well i dont really have to make a full scale translation but i just want to cover some basic stuff before i go deeper thats what froud recommended
<jsgotangco> Burgy you have to start being popular then!
<Burgundavia> ?
<jsgotangco> to be a good op
<jsgotangco> hehe
<sabmoc> froud-away:: ok, thanks for the example
<jsgotangco> hello sabmoc
<sabmoc> jsgotangco:: hey dude :)
<sabmoc> jsgotangco:: and how are you today?
<jsgotangco> im good now
<sabmoc> thats good
<jsgotangco> i still have a bad throat though
<jsgotangco> brb need to reboot x
<jsgotangco> hi Liz
<Liz> hi jsgotangco 
<sabmoc> you hurd it hear first folks: http://69.90.152.144/collab/GoogleMapsHacking
<jsgotangco> googlemaps on emacs sheesshh
* Burgundavia is away: I'm busy
<jsgotangco> bbl
* Burgundavia is back (gone 00:27:24)
<froud> African Greetings
<Burgundavia> salut
<Burgundavia> I am working on a one page pamphlet about ubuntu
<froud> Burgundavia: where does it go
<Burgundavia> nowhere yet
<Burgundavia> I am making it for Linux Fest Northwest, which I will be going to in April
<Burgundavia> which brings me to my point
<froud> Oh Nice
<Burgundavia> I need some better fonts
<Burgundavia> do you have some good readable font suggestions?
<jsgotangco> Verdana, Times New Roman *grin*
<jsgotangco> ok dont mind me
<Burgundavia> vah
<Burgundavia> bah
<Burgundavia> damn keyboard
<froud> Burgundavia: for headings use Helvetica
<froud> For body text use Bookman Old
<Burgundavia> is that part of mstt core fonts?
<froud> Hmmm Dunno about MS dude
<Burgundavia> they are
<Burgundavia> I just realized that I dont have mscore fonts installed
<jsgotangco> hmmm i have been studying this docbook stuff but i forgot to ask where they are located in hoary? Is it a package?
<froud> jsgotangco: yes, just search in synaptic for docbook
<jsgotangco> how about the actual ubuntu-doc?
<froud> what about it
<froud> just seach for ubuntu-doc
<jsgotangco> oh wait
<jsgotangco> i didnt have it installed
<jsgotangco> thats why
<jsgotangco> *doh*
<jeffsch> froud: I have a question about quick guide...
<jeffsch> &conventions;
<jeffsch> where is the text for that entity?
<jeffsch> okay, I found it...
<froud> jeffsch: all entities are defined in /libs/global.ent
<jeffsch> next question: is conventions.xml frozen?
<froud> no
<froud> it has also not been translated
<jeffsch> ok. Because that's where the "eample below" text is... remember the email to the list from Stephen Shirley?
<froud> yep
<froud> thanks for getting around to it
<jeffsch> I only now realized it was not in quickguide.xml :(
<jeffsch> There's something else...
<froud> yes it's a common xml instance
<froud> yes
<jeffsch> When you open yelp to the front page, it has the ubuntu docs
<jeffsch> the version is 5.4
<jeffsch> how to fix?
<froud> see the VERSION file
<jeffsch> it only has the text 01
<froud> lemme se
<froud> you talking about quick guide now right?
<jeffsch> yes. the VERSION file in the same folder as quickguide.xml
<froud> the rev is only mentioned in &quickguide-rev;
<froud> this equals Hoary Hedgehog
<jeffsch> sorry, it's not quickguide rev that is the issue
<jeffsch> let me rephrase...
<froud> ok
<jeffsch> type yelp at command line. it opens, and for quickguide desc it says "    A quick tour of the Ubuntu 5.4 "Hoary Hedgehog"
<froud> Ah
<jeffsch> should be 5.04
<jeffsch> plus, it's not exactly 100% grammatically correct. I think it's missing the word "desktop"
<froud> it is in the omf file
<jeffsch> or at least get rid of "the"
<froud> I will fix it
<jeffsch> I will fix the "example below" thing
<froud> ok
<froud> done
<jsgotangco> hmmm i didnt notice that till jeffsch mention it
<froud> jsgotangco: that's why many eyes are good ;-)
<froud> Hey must start working
<jeffsch> is there a way to quickly search svn history to find when the "example below" was removed?
<jsgotangco> its 5.4 hehehe
<froud> svn log
<jeffsch> ahhh. I redirect it to a file, and then search the file?
<froud> no
<froud> just run svn log filename
<jeffsch> ok, so that gives me a list of 5 previous revs. How to easily search each one? I don't have to get each rev, do I?
<froud> jsgotangco: svn blame filename
<jeffsch> hmmm... maybe the example was never there in the first place. each log says that only 1 or 2 lines was changed.
<froud> svn --help for commands
<froud> svn --help command for help on command
<froud> but Jeff why dont you just install eSvn
<froud> its in Universe
<froud> apt-get install esvn
<froud> apt-get install esvn-doc
<froud> needs Qt
<froud> need subversion
<jsgotangco> oh its a front end
<froud> the later you have
<jsgotangco> i will install that
<froud> yes
<jeffsch> ok. i will try esvn later.
<froud> much easier for you and you can also help edit and contribute to my manua ;-)
<jsgotangco> i will install it now
<froud> the current version in testing is 0.6.9
<froud> Universe may be a bit behind that
<jsgotangco> the one in universe is 0.6.5+2-1
<froud> but once you have it installed just use the help menu to check for new versions
<froud> we have done lots of work on eSvn to make is user friendly
<froud> makes life quicker
<jeffsch> froud: for now, in conventions.xml, i will just remove mention of an example. I will not create an example.
<froud> cool
<froud> I think I remove dthe xref
<froud> caus eit was breaking
<froud> my bad
<froud> well so I see from the blame
<jeffsch> ahhh... now I know what blame means. hehe
<jeffsch> ok. I committed the "example below" thing. somebody please double check my work... it's late and i'm too tired...
<jeffsch> time for bed. cya
<froud> thanks jeff
<froud> checked, nice one thanks
<froud> oh he's gone
<froud> darn irc
<jsgotangco> conventions.xml
<jsgotangco> that was fast
<froud-work> jsgotangco: I work very fast. That's how I get lots done. Not always accurate, but I do get things done ;-)
<jsgotangco> this doc thing is really interesting
<froud-work> jsgotangco: what do you mean doc thing?
<jsgotangco> i mean the whole thing
<jsgotangco> how it gets done, committed, etc
<froud-work> you mean docbook xml and repos
<jsgotangco> yes
<jsgotangco> because its new to me
<froud-work> :-) tried tested and proven over the ages
<froud-work> but has high barrier to entry for newbie
<froud-work> but those who stay with it have an advantage
<jsgotangco> it does but it just needs a lot of reading
<jsgotangco> to get familiar with it
<froud-work> an experimentation
<froud-work> and some help from your friends :-)
<jsgotangco> aye
* froud-work wonders, where is Flonne today
<jsgotangco> bleah reboot x
<Liz> bbl
<jsgotangco> bbl
<jsgotangco> i know what BOF means but what does Mao mean?
<Kinnison> It's the name of a card game
<jsgotangco> i have an agenda conference and it had a BOF at 2100 or Mao
<Kinnison> Hmm where's this?
<jsgotangco> Claire sent it to me
<jsgotangco> its scary
<jsgotangco> a day starts at 9am and ends before 10pm
<Kinnison> Why is this scary?
<jsgotangco> *grin*
<jsgotangco> well it looks draining to me
<Kinnison> Aye; but it's only a week
<jsgotangco> it'll be my first time to participate in such so i dont know what to expect
<Kinnison> We did 9am to 8pm for two weeks in Mataro
<jsgotangco> eekk
<Kinnison> This time will be more intense but shorter
<Kinnison> If you want to know a little more about Mao: http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/CambridgeStandard5CardMao
<jsgotangco> were playing cards?
<Kinnison> Oh yes :-)
<jsgotangco> ok i will read it since i dont get the logic of it at the moment
<Burgundavia> bah
<Burgundavia> no Mao for corey
<Burgundavia> he will be doing a presentation on Ubuntu a month yesterday
<jsgotangco> i still dont get it ill google for Mao
<Burgundavia> *grin*
<Kinnison> jsgotangco: Don't bother. Everything you find will be wrong or misleading
<Kinnison> Burgundavia: feh
<jsgotangco> ok it seems to be like a game of never ending rules
* Kinnison wouldn't say it was that per-se
<jsgotangco> or game where nobody knows the rules for starters but end up knowing the rules blah
<Kinnison> jsgotangco: every played uno?
<Kinnison> gah, why do I always typo 'ever' as 'every' ?
<jsgotangco> yes
<Burgundavia_> bah
<Burgundavia_> kicked my power out
<Burgundavia_> anyway, that googling for Mao stuff working for you?
<jsgotangco> no
<Kinnison> jsgotangco: Mao is effectively Uno for adult crack heads
<jsgotangco> it doesnt make sense to me at the moment
<Burgundavia_> Mao is fun
<jsgotangco> well i can imagine myself getting kicked at it at the start
<Kinnison> all mao virgins have issues during their first game or two
<Kinnison> Except Mark Shuttleworth
<Burgundavia_> "We are playing Cambridge Standard 5 Card Mao. The only thing I am allowed to tell you is that any card not found in a standard 52 card is a nine of diamonds"
<Kinnison> who kicked arse
<Burgundavia_> a spare
<Kinnison> Burgundavia: have you checked out the wiki page for mao recently?
<Burgundavia_> bloody hell
<Burgundavia_> my fonts have come completely sidewise
<Burgundavia_> no
<Burgundavia_> gmail now looks like ass
<Burgundavia_> mark is also crazy
<Burgundavia_> I know what it is
<Burgundavia_> I install mscore fonts
<Burgundavia_> and gmail wants to use one of them
<jsgotangco> heh
<Burgundavia_> damn it
<Burgundavia_> oh
<Burgundavia_> brb
<jsgotangco> the more i read about it the more it gets confusing it would be much better if i participate in mao i guess
<Kinnison> Yep
<Burgundavia> part of the game is that you learn as you go
<Kinnison> Participation is the key
<Burgundavia> and you will fall on your ass the 1st couple of games
* Kinnison wonders if corey ever played past the first couple of games
<Burgundavia> hey!
* Kinnison gdl&rf!
<Kinnison> burgey: s'a cute ass to fall on anyway
* Burgundavia shakes his cute ass
<jsgotangco> bleah im going home see you guys later
<Burgundavia> cya
<mdke> morning all
<mdke> actually its not even morning now
<EricNeon> hoho
<EricNeon> this is evening
<mdke> hi froud_ abelli Liz 
<Liz> hiya
<abelli> Liz: ciaoooo
<Liz> ciao abelli 
<abelli> Liz: how is life?
<Liz> oh good t hanks..tiring tho..
<Liz> hows yours?...
<Liz> sorry, was in another virtual window
<abelli> no probs. im ok thank you
<Liz> rightio..im off to do some updates
<Liz> nite all
<mdke> anyone home
<mdke> froud_, ping
<mdke> in my .po file, when I come across something like <guibutton>Reload</guibutton>, is it ok to translate the "Reload" bit?
<froud_> mdke: yes you must translate it
<mdke> froud_, great
<mdke> i was worried it might break the link or something
<froud_> what link? there is no link
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> but i thought i'd ask just in case
<froud_> Just dont translate entities
<froud_> thinks like &something;
<mdke> ok
<mdke> and presumably also things like <guibutton>
<froud_> dont translate the content of elements
<mdke> can you give me an example?
<mdke> these technical terms...
<froud_> sure any words written by a person can be translated, any thing pertaining to markup leave alone :-)
<mdke> right
<mdke> so something like <Guibutton>Ricarica</Guibutton> would do for the example I gave above
<froud_> btw I got this gem from KDE today about po file http://i18n.kde.org/translation-howto/doc-translation.html
<mdke> will check it out thanks
<froud_> <guibutton>Ricarica</guibutton>
<mdke> cool
<mdke> thanks froud_ 
<froud_> I think I like the kde method for po file management better
<froud_> it is more granular and easier to control
<mdke> i don't understand enough to have an opinion
<mdke> whatever is good for you guys
<froud_> mdke: you are one of us 'guys'
<froud_> so you must like it too
<froud_> or must not
<froud_> depending on your preference
<mdke> froud_, :)
<mdke> but i seriously don't understand the technical side of the work yet
<froud_> but basically we must choose one method, the kde way or the gnome way
<mdke> hmm
<froud_> the two are not compatible
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> will the gnome way work for kubuntu and vice versa?
<froud_> I know crazy you would think a standard like i18n would be handled in a standard way.... high hopes
<mdke> ideally it would be best to have one method for both ubuntu and kubuntu docs i guess
<froud_> for k/ubuntu we need to choose one way or the other
<mdke> right
<froud_> yes, I like the kde method
<mdke> it will work ok with gnome/yelp?
<froud_> yes the resulting xml file works in yelp
<mdke> ok
<mdke> well i guess just voice it with the list, and those who know about these things will comment
<froud_> the question is not the end results imho it is th eprocess and how to control it
<mdke> yeah i c
<froud_> well I am off to lectures now. 3 hours of hell
<mdke> you lecture or you listen to lectures?
<froud_> this time I am listening
<mdke> heh
<mdke> ok have fun!
<froud_> chow
<froud_> ignorance, yes, but what is UDU?
<claude> the new Wiki, I suppose
<claude> but don't know where to find it
<claude> no...
<claude> Ubuntu Down Under
<froud_> Uh huh
<claude> that's Ubuntu meeting
<claude> maybe Mark will invite us :-)
<claude> https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/UbuntuDownUnder
<froud_> claude: thanks
<froud_> claude: what do you think about using the KDE method for managing translations
<froud_> http://i18n.kde.org/translation-howto/doc-translation.html
<claude> i must figure out first what gnome method is :)
<mdke> you should definitely post it to the list froud_ 
<froud_> The gnome method is documented in the cvs source of xml2po
<froud_> but it is still fraught with bugs
<froud_> the kde method is more stable imho and better from a management perspective
<froud_> give the method on that page a run and see what I mean
<claude> i need some time to investigate
<froud_> claude: one thing I am not sure of 
<froud_> claude: we already have one translated po file
<froud_> in the kde doc it says
<froud_> Break-up of the translated documentation into msgstrs into a PO file:
<froud_> split2po ENGLISH.xml TRANSLATED.xml >TRANSLATED.po
<froud_> msgmerge -o TRANSLATED.po TRANSLATED.po ENGLISH.pot
<claude> what are you trying to do ?
<froud_> trying to run the kde method from where we are now
<froud_> our state is we have a po file
<froud_> we got it cause I made a pot file with xml2pot
<froud_> and some kind sole created a po
<claude> the xml generation uses po2xml
<mdke> has do you go from pot to po file?
<mdke> i've just been renaming
<froud_> has to go po-fr to xml-fr
<claude> see http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocteamStepByStepl18n
<claude> 4.
<claude> see also Makefile
<claude> or better rebuild-xml-from-po
<claude> (used in make trans)
<froud_> ah ha, I c said the blind man to the deaf mute
<claude> lol
<froud_> ok I now have fr xml
<claude> i hope now that this xml file will be available to French users
<froud_> now i will add it to svn
<froud_> claude: ak next step
<claude> mmh, yes, yes, yes
<froud_> lets say we have an update to about-ubuntu.xml (english)
<claude> he he...
<froud_> how t merge the changes only to about-ubuntu-fr.po
<claude> there is a method, wait...
* froud_ is thick tonight
<claude> msgmerge is the way
<froud_> ok yes I saw that document
<froud_> hmm fr version looks good under yelp
<claude> but this need still much scripting :(
<claude> to automate
* froud_ asks claude why he thinks I am here now
<claude> lol
<froud_> ok release notes and about both speak french now
<froud_> well in svn at least
<froud_> claude: do you have a working copy
<mdke> what are those strange symbols in the titles of the documents when viewed with yelp?
<froud_> symbols, I see no symbols
<mdke> hmm
<froud_> hold lemme check on another box
<mdke> in the release notes for example, i get "1.[weird box with 20 02}Introduction
<mdke> 2. [weird box]  What's New
<mdke> etc
<claude> french or english or both ?
<mdke> both
<mdke> as if there are some characters that my system doesn't read
<froud_> no no miseure you are mistaken there are no simbols to speak of
<mdke> screenie?
<froud_> I have check it on gentoo, ubuntu, suse and mdk
<froud_> Hmm screenie
* froud_ goes of for a screenie
<mdke> i'll do one of mine i mean
<mdke> http://mdke.mine.nu/images/yelp.png <--clikkkk
<claude> ma che passa :)
<mdke> that is from the packaged docs btw
<mdke> but its the same in svn
<claude> mdke: we have the same wallpaper, that's funny !
<mdke> heh
<mdke> there's not many wallpapers packaged ;)
<claude> mine was not packaged on Warty
<mdke> oh
<froud> http://www.inwords.co.za/kubuntu/Screenshot.png
<froud> walla
<claude> i found it on Gnome artwork
<mdke> claude, gotcha
<mdke> froud, so what's wrong with mineeeeeeee /winges
<mdke> s/winges/whinges
<froud> I dunno msr
<froud> claude: you c what mkde sees
<claude> yes, no idea :(
<froud> mdke: did you svn up and use the copy I have just added
<froud> claude: you too
<mdke> froud, its not just the french
<mdke> its the english xml too
<claude> froud: no for me it's ok
<mdke> both in svn and local
<froud> mdke: you been abusing your box
<mdke> must be some font i'm missing or something
<claude> mdke: you're in Hoary?
<mdke> yeah
<claude> maybe some utf-8 bug in Hoary and yelp...
* froud thinks mdke has done something really bad to his box
<claude> i'm still on warty
<mdke> froud, aw come off it
<froud> I is on hoary
* froud is just pulling your plonker
* mdke considers installing ubuntu-desktop
<froud> mdke: that would help
<froud> I have both ubuntu and kubuntu desktops
<mdke> yeah that would solve it i'm sure
<froud> but is good on gentoo, suse and mdk too
<mdke> but it would also bring in a load of stuff
* froud goes of to FC box
<mdke> froud, i believe you!!!
<mdke> ok i'll install ubuntu-desktop
<froud> no simbole on FC
<mdke> but i'm not happy about it ;)
* froud tickles mdke under the toes
<mdke> might as well install ubuntu-base while i'm at it
<mdke> double my boot time
<mdke> ouch 74 new packages
<froud> bring them on!
<mdke> heh
<mdke> my poor harddrive
<mdke> anyway, the italian ones should be along shortly
<mdke> i've sent both aboutubuntu and releasenotes for correction
<mdke> call it saturday
* froud does smart upgrade and gets 230 packages
<claude> i have launch quickguide in french
<froud> oh cool enrico will love that when he gets back
<mdke> nice one
<mdke> claude, any sign of rosetta?
<claude> can wait on Rosetta :(
<claude> s/can/can't/
<froud> I am waiting for some african langs from the uni here
<mdke> awesome
<froud> I think Afrikaans and maybe isiZulu
<mdke> great
<claude> great, but we'll need to create a good translation processes and scripts
<mdke> for breezy
* froud is on it
<mdke> or for hoary?
<froud> enrico will do the packaging
<claude> too late for hoary IMHO
<froud> yep I am working toward next release
<mdke> ok cool
<mdke> same applies to translation process
* froud is being urged to bed by his mrs
<mdke> lol
<mdke> yay for froud 
<mdke> get on it
<froud> thanks goodness the 3 wee ones are in bed ;-)
<mdke> :)
<froud> claude: where to find a list of std lang acronyms
<claude> aren't you in bed :)
<mdke> heh
<froud> mrs makes it warm first
<claude> lol
<mdke> froud has the ideal life
<mdke> damn him
<mdke> except he uses kde
<froud> come to africa
<froud>  .... and kde
<claude> ok for africa !
<mdke> is froud invited us?
* froud wonders where sivang is, he can do hebrew translation
<mdke> s/invited/inviting
<froud> you are welcome I have a spare flat upstairs
<froud> double bed if you to dont mind sharing
* mdke looks closer at claude 
<claude> hum...
<claude> i'll come with my familiy too !
<froud> I know Kinnison wont mind
<mdke> LOL
<claude> 6 in a double bed
<froud> Oooo sound slike fun
<mdke> you all have families
<mdke> bah
<froud> yep
* mdke goes off to make a family
<froud> married 13 years
<froud> and happy with it
<mdke> :)
<froud> nearing 40
<froud> ouch 
<mdke> lol
<mdke> 23
<claude> same for me, also 13 years, funny tonight !
* froud wonders when his brain will realize this
<claude> 13 years marriage, of course...
<froud> claude: and would not chang eit for the world right?
<claude> right
<mdke> i need to get on this
<claude> froud: you asked this ? http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/IG/ert/iso639.htm
<froud> eh some hav ethree letters
<froud> what to do when lang only has three letters
<claude> it's iso 639-2
<claude> see the bottom of page for 2 letters codes
<claude> 639-1
* froud slaps himself for not scrolling down
* mdke slaps froud for not going to bed
<froud> ok guys this time its real I am off. The bed is warm by now
<froud> bye
<mdke> night
<claude> ok, for me too, please to mett you
<claude> meet
<mdke> bye claude 
<claude> bye
<mdke> hi sivang 
#ubuntu-doc 2005-04-12
<mdke> HM Wordpress Banned by Google for Spamming
<mdke> HM Wordpress, an incredibly popular Open Source Blogging system was found to be spamming google by inserting hidden links to junk content on high paying Adsense keywords such as mesothelioma and debt consolidation.
<jsgotangco> hello
<Liz> hiay
<Liz> slight problem here..no display..working with someone in #ubuntu
<Liz> sorry
<jsgotangco> hi Liz
<jsgotangco> ok
<jsgotangco> hmmm typo on release notes
<jsgotangco> Mattias should be Matthias if im not mistaken
<Liz> yay..im me again
<jsgotangco> hehe
<jsgotangco> ahh the Hoary repos have been quiet lately
<jsgotangco> huh?
<Liz> running off to a lug meeting
<Liz> heh
<Liz> see ya later
<jsgotangco> heh
<jsgotangco> see ya
<jsgotangco> hi jeffsch
<jeffsch> hello
<jeffsch> what's up?
<jsgotangco> im looking at my po file for releasenotes
<jsgotangco> i noticed that Matthias' name is Mattias in the credits
<jeffsch> i don't know much about po files.
<jeffsch> is it only in the po file?
<jsgotangco> does releasenotes have an xml file?
<jeffsch> yes. it should be in the same folder as the po file
<jsgotangco> let me check my working dir
<jsgotangco> oh yes its a typo on Matthias' name but i will check for further typo errors later
<jeffsch> my guess is that if you change it in the xml file, the change will eventually propagate to the po file
<jsgotangco> if it was committed right
<jsgotangco> greets froud
<froud> African Greetings
<jsgotangco> froud: are pot files dynamically generated from the original xml file?
<froud> yes
<jsgotangco> so if i see a typo error, i do it in the xml then commit so that the next pot is corrected as well?
<froud> you see a type in the en xml?
<jsgotangco> well Matthias' name in releasenotes is Mattias
<jsgotangco> so even the fr-po had Mattias
<froud> how do you know it was not misspelled in the fr version
<jsgotangco> i looked at both xml and po and his name was mispelled both
<froud> Yes, but how do know that his name is not spelled Matthias?
<jsgotangco> ok i didnt get that english right
<jeffsch> jsgotangco made a good catch: http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/MatthiasUrlichs/
<froud> jsgotangco: just cause it was spelled Mattias in fr does not mean it was mispelled in English
<jsgotangco> no
<jsgotangco> it was mispelled in English
<jsgotangco> i checked the xml
<jsgotangco> so the pot was already wrong in the first place
<froud> Ok so make a change in the en file
<froud> and since it is so small make the same change in the pot
<froud> patch and I will apply it
<froud> no need to regenerate all
<froud> just for one word or name
<jsgotangco> i know i know
<jsgotangco> ive got a question though, what do you mean by patch
<froud> you have a working copy under svn right?
<jsgotangco> yes
<froud> ok so the fr and en files are under rev control
<froud> just do
<froud> hold
<froud> do you have any changes anywhere else in your repos
<jsgotangco> there are changes but not yet done i will move them out first
<froud> where in another directory
<jsgotangco> outside the working copy
<froud> no I mean are you changes in another dir other than releasnotes/
<jsgotangco> no its just in releasenotes/
<froud> ok
<froud> first do svn up in trunk/
<froud> then do sbn status
<froud> svn status
<froud> sorry early in the morn my finger need to warm up
<froud> svn status will show the files modified
<froud> and any files not under svn controll
<jsgotangco> i found 2 files that i have been translating
<froud> ok but have they been added to svn yet?
<froud> iow did you do svn add to them?
<jsgotangco> no not yet i dont upload anything yet just local
<froud> Ok good
<jsgotangco> it has a ? on the frong
<jsgotangco> front
<froud> good
<froud> make trunk/ your pwd
<froud> then do svn diff releasenotes > releasenotes.diff
<froud> this will create the file releasenotes.diff in trunk/
<froud> email the diff (also called a patch) to the list
<jsgotangco> ahh there's the patch
<jsgotangco> it said svn: 'releasenotes.diff' is not under version control
<froud> ah sorry
<froud> in trunk/
<froud> do
<froud> svn diff releasenotes.diff
<jsgotangco> svn: 'releasenotes.diff' is not under version control
<froud> did you actualy make a file called releasenote.diff
<jsgotangco> yes
<froud> you should not have one if you did
<jsgotangco> its in trunk
<jsgotangco> wa
<froud> no the diff will do it for you
<jsgotangco> svn diff releasenotes > releasenotes.diff created the patch
<froud> when you do svn diff > somefile.ext.diff you are redirecting the stdout to a file
<froud> yes
<froud> there you go
<froud> easy
<froud> now you can see th epatch
<jsgotangco> yes ive seen the changes
<froud> do less releasenotes.diff
<froud> q to quit
<froud> send the patch if you are happy with it
<jsgotangco> ahh
<jsgotangco> so thats the patch
<jsgotangco> i send it to ubuntu-doc@lists.ubuntu.com right
<froud> yep :-)
<jsgotangco> ok its a silly patch but its my first time
<jeffsch> froud: i have a question about "svn diff releasenotes"
<jeffsch> releasenotes is not an actual file in trunk
<froud> jsgotangco: we al have a first time
<jeffsch> so does svn ignore that?
<jsgotangco> ya its a folder
<jeffsch> doh!
<froud> jeffsch: you can also do svn diff inside the releasenotes folder
<jsgotangco> froud: does svn diff just compare the names and check the difference?
<jeffsch> that's wut i have always done. So now I learn something new!
<froud> chaps why do you all insist on using the cli for this. Just apt-get install esvn
<jeffsch> :)
<jsgotangco> i downloaded esvn and it was confusing for me
<jeffsch> hmmm... I have to hook up universe one of these days
<froud> oooooo. Xhosa translations just arrived in my in box
<froud> js how can it be confusing RTfM 
<jsgotangco> *grin*
<froud> Its a GUI what is confusing about it
<froud> what does 29-3 mean in the file names of these translations?
<jsgotangco> ok ok maybe a wiki entry on esvn would do wonders *grin*
<froud> Umm the whole manual is online
<jsgotangco> ok ill put it in my todo list this weekend so i can learn it
<froud> http://esvn.umputun.com/html-docs/index.html
<froud> jsgotangco: patches welcome on the manual btw
<jsgotangco> ok but its a long term goal the short term goals are keeping my feet wet first
<froud> jsgotangco: svn checkout http://esvn.umputun.com/repos/trunk esvn
<froud> jsgotangco: you are already soaked dude
<froud> jsgotangco: all we need now is to make bubbles :-)
<jsgotangco> wtf my gdm has 3 guys hugging now
<froud> btw anyone else who wants to work on that manual is more than welcome ;-)
<froud> huh
<jsgotangco> this is an april fools prank
<jsgotangco> lol
<jsgotangco> if i send the patch, i dont need to say antying on the email right? just attach the patch
<jeffsch> jsgotangco: not "if" you send, "when" you send :)
<jsgotangco> *grin*
<froud> this one is fine we can check it agains the wc to see the changes
<jeffsch> just make a reasonable subject line, maybe a quick description
<froud> ok we now have Xhosa in the repos
<froud> right morning chores, grocery shopping
<jsgotangco> Xhosa is a language?
<froud> see ya all later
<jeffsch> cya froud
<froud> jeff can you apply jsgotangco 's patch?
<jeffsch> okie doke
<froud> thanks jeffsch thanks fo rthe patch jsgotangco 
<jeffsch> hello Burgundavia
<jsgotangco> ahhh i learned something new today
<Burgundavia> salut
<jsgotangco> salut
<jeffsch> jsgotangco: patch applied
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xhosa
<jsgotangco> wow that was a good learning experience
<jeffsch> jsgotangco: it was learning experience for me too. It was first time I applied someone else's patch
<jeffsch> you should double check it to make sure I did it right
<jsgotangco> hmm reboot x
<jsgotangco> bbl
<jsgotangco> bbl
<jeffsch> bbl
<jsgotangco> hi trickie
<mdke> morning
<Burgundavia> salut
<mdke> ca va?
<jsgotangco> hi
<mdke> hi jsgotangco 
<Burgundavia> so so
<Burgundavia> pissed off my ex seriously today
<mdke> is that bad?
<Burgundavia> yes
<mdke> hmm
<Burgundavia> we had a date
<Burgundavia> and I forgot about it
<mdke> oh
<Burgundavia> yah
<mdke> you're trying to patch things up?
<Burgundavia> oh I will eventually
<mdke> you'll have to make it up to her
<mdke> jsgotangco, the releasenotes have been frozen
<mdke> iirc
<jsgotangco> ooohhh
<mdke> they'll accept critical errors tho i think
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia: they don't like PHP stuff in the server for security reasons?
<Burgundavia> I think so
<Burgundavia> I don't personally think that PHP is unsecurable
<jsgotangco> oohhh gmail is 1 year old today
<jsgotangco> *grin*
<Burgundavia> but then again, security is very much a selective thing
<Burgundavia> if you admins have experience with PHP, then in that case, in might be counted as unsecurable
<Burgundavia> s/have/have no
<mdke> later all
<jsgotangco> ok bye folks
* mdke sits down to read froud-away's email
* mdke calls for backup
<jsgotangco> damn froud your email just nailed it right where it needs to be
<froud> jsgotangco: what do you mean?
<jsgotangco> well its true not all of us are coders and stuff so the solution we need is something that document people can use instead of buidling one from scratch
<froud> ah ok
<froud> I think we can help in defining stuff
<froud> but we need support of few good coders
<jsgotangco> aye
<froud> otherwise we will just be floundering
<jsgotangco> froud: OT but i want to ask have you worked with Rosettanet XML before?
<froud> jsgotangco: no
<jsgotangco> ok tnx
<mdke> ping froud
<froud> mmm
<froud> waz up mdke 
<mdke> hi
<mdke> re: claude's email
<froud> yep
<mdke> are you gonna do anything about it, or leave it as it is for now?
<mdke> i guess it is pretty late to change it?
<froud> I want to hear what claude has to say
<froud> dude all of i18n is late, we do what we can
<jsgotangco> wow gmail is now 1.4GB
<mdke> froud, hmmm
<mdke> froud, ok cool
<jsgotangco> froud: do any i18n contributions still get into hoary by release?
<froud> whatever we have will go in otherwise not
<froud> but enrico will know better
<jsgotangco> *grin* i see myself doing more after hoary then hehe
<mdke> try and get aboutubuntu and releasenotes done for hoary
<mdke> they are short
<jsgotangco> im doing releasenotes now
<mdke> :)
<jsgotangco> itll be done later
<jsgotangco> *grin*
<jsgotangco> i'll bbl and finish this first
<abelli> sladen: ding. can you help me with ubuntu-vserver?
<sladen> abelli: possible
<sladen> abelli: possibly
<abelli> sladen: hellllllooooo
<sladen> abelli: hi.  Greetings from the Netherlands
<abelli> sladen: how can i do?
<abelli> what's in amsterdam?
<sladen> drugs and sex, mostly
<sladen> left amsterdam a couple of days, I'm not up North in Groningen
<abelli> ahhh ok
<abelli> what about vservers which category do they fall in?
<sladen> one kernel, many virtual machines, near-zero overhead  
<sladen> similar to Solaris Zones or BSD Jail on steroids
<abelli> sladen: yeah i know the principle ... how can i do it in ubuntu
<abelli> someone told me that vserver and debian are not good friends ..
<abelli> what about ubuntu ? 
<abelli> what kernel should i use ...
<sladen> mmm, good quesiton
<sladen> haven't actually done anything with vservers on Ubuntu
<abelli> mmm, good answer ... let me prepare the next good question ...
<abelli> ...
<abelli> sladen: so?
<sladen> the problem is that I've lost track of what's been going on.  The stuff I'm using at kernel patches and tools that I've /comfortable/ with.  Some might call them out of date, but I'm more confident in stuff I wrote myself ;-)
<sladen> you're looking for something like  linux-patch-ctx  and then vserver-something for the userspace tools
<abelli> yeah and then i need to read what fm to get things running properly?
<sladen> opal keeps the debian packages going.  and ask on #vserver
<sladen> for current best practise.  Anything I say is probably related to the previous toolset and 6 months out of date
<abelli> sladen: on #vserver oftc.net they basically said that the debian way is the wrong way
<abelli> sladen: ok got your point ... let's do it the uml way .
<claude> hi guys, do you know when the Makefile will include translations ?
<claude> Is this enrico or trickie's job ?
<froud> make file does include translations, the packaging system needs fix ing and that need enrico
<mdke> did you guys resolve the alphabetical order thing?
<claude> no, the build process create xml files, but not html ones
<froud> ah ha you mean that 
<claude> (xsltproc...)
<froud> ah ha that is my job
<froud> :-)
* froud hides
<claude> he he...
<claude> stop watching TV
<claude> :)
<froud> actuall writing more docs for you to translate
<claude> grrrr...
<froud> I will add it. Promise
<claude> 10, 9, 8, 7...
<froud> dont shoot
* froud stands up with his hands in the air
<claude> you resign
<froud> from what I was never in charge
<claude> your goodness is infinite
* froud grows horns again
<mdke> did you guys resolve the alphabetical order thing?
<froud> alpha oprder thing?
<froud> oh the email
<claude> thanks for your answer, froud
<froud> I leave it up to claude 
<claude> it makes sense, all this stuff with entities
<claude> :)
<froud> it does
<claude> but not before Hoary release, right ?
<froud> do you want to translate the menus
<froud> I will make the po file
<froud> s
<claude> sss
<froud> no really, do you understand the method I propose
<claude> i'll surely need your help
<froud> if so and you dont see problems I can impliment it
<froud> that is why I am here
<froud> to help
<mdke> froud, would that mean recalling all the translators working on the old pot files?
<froud> once we have the menus translated it will save having to translate them in the furture
<froud> no
<froud> just make translators work on the files in common/menus
<froud> I will make po files for them
<claude> but i think we need to redesign the folders, for i18n
<claude> i propose we start all this after Hoary
<froud> and make the global ent
<mdke> i would tend to agree with claude for now
<froud> :-) horns are growing again
* froud is itching to get passed hoary
<mdke> yeah i know what you mean
<mdke> for next release we can organise a good translation system
<froud> It will be much smoother promise
<mdke> yeah
<claude> first, if you could adapt Makefile for localized abt, rn and qg
<froud> OK
<mdke> what does that do?
<mdke> someone take pity on my n00bishness
<claude> create html target
<claude> at least for abt and rn
<mdke> and what does that do?
<claude> we can see the files with Web browser, as they will eventually be
<mdke> ok
<mdke> fair play
<claude> i'm not used to png, but is this normal that screenshots are so big (464 Ko for aboutubuntu.png)
<froud> they should have compression level of 9 applied
<froud> but some screens may have been cpatured without compression
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> they are normally big
<claude> enormous comparing to gif
<froud> to gif yes
<froud> but we have set a process for captures that accomodates both print and screen usage
<froud> the tradeoff is that the images are larger than gif
<froud> but if we decide to do pdf we will have good looking images
<froud> the process for capture is to use imagemagic
<claude> so th build process for html target should compress them
<froud> how do you propose to do that?
<claude> probably with imagemagick
<claude> i don't know but there should be a converter function
<claude> todo list :)
<froud> he he I will see what I can do. we dont want too much compression so as to cause loss of clarity
<claude> no need for print resolution if viewing in HTML
<claude> i understand the source will be non compressed
<froud> claude: http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/TakingScreenshots
<froud> they should be compressed if authors follow this
<claude> 26 Mb for image folder, do you see the size of the package !!
<froud> yes I know
<froud> take a look at the sizes on othe rpackages
<claude> i don't agree, only openoffice.org is so big
<froud> it's a compromise
<froud> the quick guide has many images
<froud> like open office
<froud> to help reduce space usage we put images into a single folder and make docs reuse images rather than capture them again and store them twice
<froud> over time this effect will be felt
<froud> that is why all images are in /images
<froud> and not in the doc folders themselves
<claude> that's good
<froud> I admit it is a problem. But we decided on a compromise so we wont have to keep two image types in the repos. Once for screen and once for print
<froud> the captures in the format created using the process described is the best compromise we could find
<froud> it works well for screen and print
<froud> one image for both
<froud> I must go now
<froud> will see you later
<claude> k
<claude> mdke: see http://www.rpn.ch/ubuntu
<mdke> will do
<mdke> nice :)
<claude> thanks
<mdke> you see the email about rosetta/
<mdke> ?
<claude> yes
<claude> but the're still many questions...
<mdke> heh
<claude> i didn't find the quickguide
<claude> but release-notes and ubaout-ubuntu are 2 times
<mdke> in rosetta?
<claude> hurry up, there's still no italian translator team :)
<mdke> heh
<mdke> i'll email them
<mdke> but we've already done release-notes and about-ubuntu
* mdke sighs
<mdke> this has been organised so badly
<claude> ...
<mdke> where are the release notes and about-ubuntu found in rosetta?
<claude> on the list https://launchpad.ubuntu.com/distros/ubuntu/hoary/+translations
<claude> review-hoary-ubuntu-docs-1 /2 /3 /4
<mdke> oh
<claude> 1 and 3 are release, 2 and 4 are about
<claude> ??
<mdke> bizarre
<claude> indeed
<claude> and duplicate in languages only add troubles
<mdke> what are we supposed to do with the translations that are already done?
<mdke> you mean like French, French (CH) etc?
<claude> exactly
<mdke> yeah there are 3 italians
<mdke> my god
<claude> i think the template administrator can import po file
* mdke replies to email announcement
* claude checks his mail
<mdke> haven't written it yet
<claude> Dafydd promised other instructions soon
<mdke> ok
<mdke> so you think maybe quickguide is in there, but can't be found?
<claude> don't know
<mdke> its a strange structure
<mdke> strange system too
<mdke> oh well
<Burgundavia> salut
<mdke> hi Burgundavia 
<mdke> claude, do you know what the system for going between rosetta-> packaging is?
<claude> no, and that's make me worry
<mdke> you know what i think?
<mdke> i think we should carry on with our system until hoary is released and then start going with rosetta
<claude> we can also use rosetta, and export po files from rosetta
<claude> for software, i think rosetta's results are directly imported into langguage packs
<claude> but we need some post-processing
<claude> po2xml
<mdke> i can't help but think this hasn't been thought through
<claude> maybe, maybe not :)
<mdke> the ubuntu-translators/rosetta-users list distinction does not help for coordination
<claude> ok, i'm going to sleep now
<mdke> ok
<claude> all we be resolved tomorrow
<claude> "la nuit porte conseil"
<mdke> oui
<claude> :)
<mdke> bonne nuit
<mdke> sogni d'oro
<claude> ciao
#ubuntu-doc 2005-04-13
<Liz> hello all who are awake
<Burgundavia> me
<Burgundavia> but leaving soon
<Liz> no worries..you have a great day
<Liz> i have some hoary issues that i need to sort out today
<Burgundavia> what sort?
<Burgundavia> maybe I can help quickly
<Liz> yesterday i had a problem with x not working properly
<Burgundavia> hmm
<Burgundavia> never good
<Liz> we fixed that..but now my scroll mouse wont work
<Burgundavia> at all
<Burgundavia> or just in ff?
<Liz> the mouse works..but the scroll wheel doesnt
<Liz> and it was working perfectly before the x upgrade
<Burgundavia> hmm
<Liz> im guessing i need tor un the mouse setup thing
<Liz> but i dont know how yet
<Burgundavia> no, it should just work
<Burgundavia> it is USB?
<Liz> no..serial
<Liz> i can use it as usb..but it works just as well with an attachment on it 
<Liz> its a logitech mouse
<Burgundavia> have you tried it as a usb mouse and seen if it works?
<Liz> naa.last time i tried that, it kept saying cant find serial port mouse
<Burgundavia> you tried that since x update?
<Liz> no...
<Liz> ill give it a go
<Liz> so..if that doesnt work..how to i get the mouse to be noticed as it should be?
<Burgundavia> hmm
<Burgundavia> that would involve hacking xorg.conf
<Burgundavia> ugly matter
<Liz> im not using xorg.conf
<Burgundavia> you running warty eh?
<Liz> we moved back to X86
<Liz> no..hory
<Liz> hoary
<Burgundavia> ?
<Liz> xorg.conf..the kernal is having hissy fits on me
<Burgundavia> you running xfree86 on hoary?
<Liz> yesterday after an update..yesterday morning
<Liz> when i boot..i get a black screen
<Burgundavia> cool
<Burgundavia> what kind of machine?
<Liz> it had problems..so we backed it up and now it points to x86
<Burgundavia> ok
<Liz> home built 
<Liz> asus athlon 2000+ mb
<Liz> no..asrock
<Burgundavia> ok
<Liz> not asus
<Liz> onboard video is an sis chip
<Burgundavia> just wondering if you had a wierd laptop or something
<Liz> ahh..heh..no, its not a lappy
<Burgundavia> what kind of mouse do you have?
<Burgundavia> model #, etc?
<Liz> logitech optical mouse m-bj58
<Burgundavia> you have the same mouse as me
<Liz> dont ya just love it
<Burgundavia> how interesting
<Liz> i talked my partner into getting the same mouse for his lappy
<Burgundavia> Section "InputDevice"
<Burgundavia>         Identifier      "Configured Mouse"
<Burgundavia>         Driver          "mouse"
<Burgundavia>         Option          "CorePointer"
<Burgundavia>         Option          "Device"                "/dev/input/mice"
<Burgundavia>         Option          "Protocol"              "ImPS/2"
<Burgundavia>         Option          "Emulate3Buttons"       "true"
<Burgundavia>         Option          "ZAxisMapping"          "4 5"
<Burgundavia> EndSection
<Burgundavia> that is my mouse section
<Burgundavia> what is yours?
<Burgundavia> that sounded, never mind
<Liz> lol
<Liz> hang on and ill have a look
<Liz> Section "InputDevice"
<Liz> 	Identifier	"Configured Mouse"
<Liz> 	Driver		"mouse"
<Liz> 	Option		"CorePointer"
<Liz> 	Option		"Device"		"/dev/input/mice"
<Liz> 	Option		"Protocol"		"ImPS/2"
<Liz> 	Option		"Emulate3Buttons"	"true"
<Liz> 	Option		"ZAxisMapping"		"4 5"
<Liz> EndSection
<Liz> thats in XF86Config-4 file
<Liz> which is the one im using ..i think
<Burgundavia> what does your xorg.conf say?
<Liz> same thing
<Liz> i just checked to compare them
<Burgundavia> that is odd
<Liz> but the difference is the monitor
<Burgundavia> they are identical
<Burgundavia> but yours doesn't work correctly
<Liz> yep
<Liz> ive had this mouse for well over a year now
<Liz> with no problems
<Burgundavia> truly odd
<Liz> im sure its to do with the xorg.conf file
<Liz> neway
<Liz> ill brb
<Burgundavia> does the xorg/xfree86 file you the configured mouse?
<Liz> sorry?..run that past me again?
<Liz> i did a dist-upgrade the other day
<Liz> i did an update on thursday night..
<Liz> friday morning when i went to boot into it
<Liz> i got a black screen..and gdm wouldnt open
<Liz> no display whatsoever
<Burgundavia> sure
<Liz> so martinj got me to back up xorg.conf file..and reboot
<Liz> it rebooted into xf86.config
<Liz> which is what im using now
<Burgundavia> ok
<Liz> but..now my mouse isnt scrolling
<Burgundavia> bug with xfree maybe
<Burgundavia> there have been a few fixes to xorg since then
<Burgundavia> you might want to try again
<Liz> ill do that now then
<trickie> Liz, when i did a dist-upgrade it installed xserver-xorg which conflicts with xserver-xfree86
<Burgundavia> ?
<Liz> i did the dist-upgrade 4 days ago tho
<Liz> and it was working fine
<Liz> till the update on thursday night
<Liz> sorry...5 days ago
<trickie> Liz, ok 
<trickie> Liz, what i meant is that unless you specified to reinstall xserver-xfree86, you won't have it installed
<Burgundavia> this is the 1st day in a few that xorg hasn't been updated
<Liz> trickie, no idea how to do that
<trickie> Liz, try...  'sudo dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xorg'
<trickie> Liz, from a terminal :)
<Liz> ill just wait till the updates done
<Liz> ahh..bet thats the problem
<Liz> it says no x server known for your video hardware
<trickie> Liz, where does it say that?
<Liz> that was the first screen when it started up
<Liz> its asking for my video cards bus identifier
<Liz> sheesh..is onboard..i have no idea about these things
<Burgundavia> cya all
<trickie> Liz, Is your video card an ATI card>
<trickie> ?
<Liz> its as sis onboard as far as i know
<Liz> hang on..and ill tell you exactly
<Liz> info.product type string value 661FX/M661FX/M661MX/741/760/M760 PCI/AGP
<trickie> Liz, ok... i don't know what vendor the card is from... i'll have a quick peek. 
<Liz> ok..and ill just doa  reboot
<Liz> if i dont come back
<trickie> Liz, in the meantime can you login with a failsafe terminal
<trickie> ?
<Liz> you know i screwed up
<Liz> adn ill be back from the laptop
<Liz> to fix it
<Liz> brb
<Liz> yay..its working
<Liz> even got my mouse going
<matt_> hi Liz 
<Liz> hi matt_ 
<trickie> Liz, awesome
<mdke> hi trickie 
<trickie> mdke, awesome
<Liz> now how do i know which version of x im running?
<mdke> X -version
<trickie> mdke, hello
<Liz> is the lastest release ubuntu 6.8.2-8?
<mdke> heh
<mdke> not sure
<trickie> Liz, i think so
<Liz> yay
<Liz> then its the latest
<trickie> :)
<Liz> ill have to remember that dbpk thing
<trickie> Liz, yeah it is great... took me while to figure out that is how i can reconfig packages
<trickie> Anyway... bbl guys
<mdke> bye
<Liz> thansk tricikie
<Liz> my typing is shocking
* froud looks around the room for an editor
<froud> The document Ubuntu Device Database is in svn @ https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/branches/froud/gnome/ubuntu-device-database
<froud> if anyone is interested to edit/contribute, go for it
<froud> for easy reading a HTML is at http://www.inwords.co.za/ubuntu/device-database/ubuntu-device-database.html
<froud> Burgundavia: hi
<froud> Burgundavia: what's your take on the DevApp discussion going on in the list
<Burgundavia> I agree with you
<Burgundavia> that if we present something to mark, he can make it happen
<Burgundavia> do we have a machine that we can test docbook wiki on?
<Burgundavia> to look at their level of functionality
<froud> Yes, but not connected to the network
<froud> what about other solutions
<Burgundavia> what sort?
<Burgundavia> I haven't really read the thread carefully yet
<froud> well I mentioned Lenya
<froud> and we should look a t plone
<froud> but I think plon e will not easily support this
<Burgundavia> hmm
<Burgundavia> I know next to nothing about cms in general
<froud> ok take a look at http://lenya.apache.org
<froud> problem with lenya is it is still under heavy devel
<froud> but then so would be the case for docbook wiki
<froud> what I like with lenya is that it covers revision control, languages, editing, workflow etc
* froud growls. Docbook wiki is down
<Burgundavia> hmm
<Burgundavia> I would say what we need is something to tie tighter into plone
<froud> on lenya we will have to extend thier XSLs and do some work on the Cocoon pipes to get full docbook working
<froud> why do we need that?
<Burgundavia> I guess I have never really understood what the f*ck a cms actually does
<froud> manages content
<froud> but we need CMS, DMS and KMS
<Burgundavia> ?
<froud> Document and Knowldge Management Systems
<Burgundavia> ok
<Burgundavia> I think I am getting past the buzzwords now
<Burgundavia> wikipedia to the resque
<Burgundavia> rescue
<froud> problem with plone is it needs lots ofg work to include aml processing, right?
<Burgundavia> aml processing?
<froud> xml
<Burgundavia> ok
<claude> hi
<claude> my opinion is lenya is too much for use only by Docteam
<claude> needs probably a dedicated admin
<froud> why do you say that?
<claude> i'm in the process of setting up a cms at work
<claude> it's huge work !
<froud> what have you used
* froud know
<claude> jahia
* froud hugs claude 
<claude> ?
<froud> jahia is my favorite
<froud> but the license issue
<claude> yes, we know
<froud> I cant see Canonical accpeting it
<claude> hmmm
<Burgundavia> I guess from my perspective is what can get us writing docs the fastest
<Burgundavia> and how do we cut overhead to a bare minimum
<claude> we tested plone
<claude> and faced some security and performance issues
<froud> claude: but jahia support for docbook is not good
<claude> froud: don't know because docbook is new for me
<froud> claude: I found the perf issue the most both
<claude> agreed
<froud> Burgundavia: fastest yes, but with integrity
<claude> and that's the problem now with ubuntu Wiki
<froud> claude: :-)
<Burgundavia> integrity <-- what sort do you mean?
* froud nods
<claude> Plone is ideal with 80% reading, 20% editing
<froud> Burgundavia: we need more than just content
<claude> and now there is many contributors
<froud> we need indirection
<froud> the whole workflow must be taken into account
<Burgundavia> ???
<froud> and the storage format must be usable in apps other than the web
<Burgundavia> I understand your 3rd point
<Burgundavia> the 1st 2 got lost in buzzwords
<Burgundavia> and I am still uncertain as to the type of itegrity you mean
<froud> by indirection i mean the content must be presentation layer neutral
<Burgundavia> ok
<froud> we need to use the content for more than just the web
<Burgundavia> I understand that
<froud> this places demands on the integrity of the data storage format
<Burgundavia> by workflow I assume you mean creation --> web/print/etc.
<Burgundavia> so you mean technical itegrity
<Burgundavia> not trustworthy people
<froud> at the app layer we also need management of the structure in a way that promotes all our use cases
<Burgundavia> huh?
<froud> Burgundavia: to setup a CMS is one thing
<froud> but to support processes extenal becomes complex
<Burgundavia> to make it work is something else?
<froud> unless you have a core that supports this
<Burgundavia> ok
<Burgundavia> in fairly plain english, we need a revision control system
<Burgundavia> where the docs sit
<froud> the integrity of the core is important
<Burgundavia> a method of editing them online
<froud> yes
<Burgundavia> a method fo editng them offline
<froud> yes and off line
<Burgundavia> and converters to make the raw text into docbook and wiki and print and etc.
<froud> + we would like work flow
<Burgundavia> is what i just said work flow?
<froud> hmtl pdf rtf ps
<Burgundavia> ok
<Burgundavia> good
<froud> yes an dno
<Burgundavia> we are speaking about the same thing
<froud> work flow extends to include the development and release cycle
<Burgundavia> freezing docs, etc.
<froud> you write, I edit, another checks
<froud> another releases
<Burgundavia> ah
<Burgundavia> you want task based roles
<froud> all this is managed in th ecore
<froud> but the app layer has a work flow
<Burgundavia> app layer = what is this?
<froud> several layers
<froud> above the core
<claude> froud: should put the specs on the Docteam Wiki
<claude> froud: with a good schema !!
<froud> schema you mean xsd or diagram?
<claude> yes, sorry
<froud> guys have a look at the components section of http://lenya.apache.org/1_2_x/index.html
<froud> this will giv eyou some idea
<froud> note there is also tasks in addition to roles
<Burgundavia> I read through that
<Burgundavia> which got my brain working
<Burgundavia> about what we really need
<Burgundavia> at 30,000 feet
<Burgundavia> I think the first task should be delivery of docs
<Burgundavia> we already have the infastructure to create them
<Burgundavia> thus if we focus on getting a good method on publishing them statically to the web at first, we are far and way ahead
<froud> Static pub we already have
<Burgundavia> to a website?
<froud> yes
<froud> we transform to html and mako uploads to his space
<Burgundavia> from the svn?
<Burgundavia> bah
<Burgundavia> we need to make it official
<froud> over at kubuntu we have a site
<froud> http://www.kubuntu.org.uk
<Burgundavia> integrate with the existing wiki or eliminate docs from the wiki
<froud> click documentation
<Burgundavia> is it advertised?
<froud> if you are using kubuntu you know about it
<Burgundavia> ok
<froud> that document btw is just a plain html from docbook
<Burgundavia> but for ubuntu, that doesn't solve our issue
<Burgundavia> and for common docs
<froud> no cause there is a wiki in the way :-)
<froud> kubuntu runs on php
<Burgundavia> then lets move all docs out of the wiki
<Burgundavia> I don't really care where they are
<froud> and host where?
<Burgundavia> I just want them in one place
<Burgundavia> on ubuntu.com
<Burgundavia> just a seperate section
<froud> on docteam.ubuntu.com
<Burgundavia> what about help.ubuntu.com?
<froud> can do
<froud> but we have not addressed our problem here
<Burgundavia> OT, our proud national police at work: http://vancouver.cbc.ca/regional/servlet/View?filename=bc_rcmp-carts20050401
<Burgundavia> and that is?
<froud> we wanted people to write documents in a format that we can use
<Burgundavia> true
<Burgundavia> ok so we have 2 pressing concerns
<Burgundavia> 1. getting all docs into one place
<Burgundavia> 2. making those docs editable on the web in a good format
<froud> ok that means porting wiki to docbook
<Burgundavia> this is why I argued for a seperate wiki
<froud> dunno if you have seen how th ei18n stuff is working
<Burgundavia> ?
<froud> are we speaking about another wiki
<froud> or plain hmtl from the transformations
<Burgundavia> a webediting system
<Burgundavia> eventually
<Burgundavia> but at least at first a centralized web publishing system
<froud> I agree to get docs written and stored in a single place
<Burgundavia> and read from a central place
<froud> but you first need the system
<Burgundavia> true
<froud> then you can port stuff across
<Burgundavia> then we can say go to help.ubuntu.com/Networking
<Burgundavia> oh
<Burgundavia> another thing
<froud> if we port and people cant edit there will be screams
<Burgundavia> need readable urls
<froud> lenya can manage that
<Burgundavia> there are some nice Howtos in the wiki right now
<froud> yep
<Burgundavia> not 
<Burgundavia> help.ubuntu.com/QW#%QSDFWE$V^SDFA
<Burgundavia> or even
<froud> agreed
<Burgundavia> blah&asdfasdflj&aljasdf
<Burgundavia> english words
<froud> well everything you said so far is supporte dby lenya
<Burgundavia> but lenya is java
<Burgundavia> hmm
<froud> I agree we dont need all of lenya immediately
<Burgundavia> don't see that going over real well
<froud> but it is good to know we can do it and more
<Burgundavia> true
<froud> what lenya
<Burgundavia> lenya apache
<froud> tomcat is very secure
* claude still finds that specs should be written somewhere
<froud> and mark said it must stand the security muster
* froud will do this but needs focus
<froud> mark agreed to whatever technology providing it is secure
<Burgundavia> what about freedom issue?
<froud> Burgundavia: apache is free
<Burgundavia> java?
* claude thinks that froud has a lot of work and shouldn't omit to work on certain scripts...
<froud> yeah they dont like java
<claude> we saw with recent openoffice.org 2 that java is a problem now in the open-source world 
<froud> but I think that the benfit far out weighs the religious inclinations here
<Burgundavia> probably
<froud> there is a difference
<claude> it's not only religious
<froud> we are using it not shipping it
<froud> we need a system that works and can standup to high volume of hits
<froud> and is secure
<froud> we also dont want to spend hours coding
<claude> i must recognize that java is the must with these requirements
<froud> we want something out the box that matches most needs
<claude> but canonical made the zope choice
<Burgundavia> however
* froud suggests we install Jahia :-)
<Burgundavia> mark seemed ready to throw some devs at our issue
<froud> how many and how long
<froud> ?? anyone knows
<Burgundavia> we haven't got an answer to that
<froud> :-) no not yet
<froud> Burgundavia: java is the solution here
<froud> and we get back to the php question
<Burgundavia> ah yes
<Burgundavia> PHP
<Burgundavia> derided by some
<froud> why cant we just choose a technology that works
<Burgundavia> loved by others
<Burgundavia> I am not a dev
<froud> imho java is te best and most secure
<Burgundavia> so I don't know
<Burgundavia> java has freedom issues
<Burgundavia> PHP at least does not
<froud> the application we run is free
<froud> fact that it has a non free run time env is not the point is it
* froud wonders if there are any solutions based on mono
<Burgundavia> I guess what it boils down to it is, if mark is willing to put enough devs on it, we can make it work
<froud> but first we need a direction
<Burgundavia> Ubuntu/Canonical has basically standardized on Plone
<Burgundavia> I think we have most of one right now
<froud> but plone suck for this 
<Burgundavia> can it not suck for this?
<froud> not even sure plone will work with the number of users
<froud> nice to get a web site up
<Burgundavia> well, they must have solved it with malone
<froud> but it is not industrial strength
<Burgundavia> they are expecting a lot of users with that
<froud> we will see
<Burgundavia> anyway
<Burgundavia> so I will send to the list what we just discussed
<froud> yeah
<froud> good to record
* froud goes off to look at some scripts
<Burgundavia> 4. Allow easy interlanguage links for docs
<Burgundavia> See what wikipedia does with interwiki links, something similar or better
<Burgundavia> do you agree?
<froud> yes
<Burgundavia> ok
<Burgundavia> 1. Single source for all docs
<Burgundavia> Unify wiki and other sources into a single entry point. help.ubuntu.com was suggested.
<Burgundavia> 2. All docs editable at that source
<Burgundavia> 3. All docs editable in an offline way, as is already happening
<Burgundavia> 4. Allow easy interlanguage links for docs
<Burgundavia> See what wikipedia does with interwiki links, something similar or better
<Burgundavia> anything I missed?
<claude> version control, workflow
<Burgundavia> sorry
<froud> we discussed it
<Burgundavia> thought that was a given
<Burgundavia> 5. All docs remain in a form of version control
<Burgundavia> 6. System allows easy creation from text to PDF, PS, HTML, etc.
<froud> Burgundavia: lenya does that automatically
<froud> you just feed it the xml and define what outputs you want
<Burgundavia> those are principles to work from
<froud> sure
<Burgundavia> 2nd section discusses how to do it
<froud> fire and forget I say
<Burgundavia> Now comes the gritty part, the implementation:
<Burgundavia> Option 1: Use exisiting solution. Mark has indicated that he would allow something that check out in a security manner to be run. However, some of these solutions involve Java or PHP. The one that Sean mentioned as solving most of the problems discussed above was Apache Lenya, which is written in Java.
<Burgundavia> Option 2: Mark also mentioned that he might be willing to throw some developers at the problem, if we as a team can come up with a specific set of goals. The might involve extending the Plone framework to allow what we need.
<froud> ok
<Burgundavia> anything I should add?
<froud> dude cant think, I have my head in the scripts
<Burgundavia> np
<claude> put this on the Wiki, and maybe point to Lenya features that accompish the points
<froud> shoot it and we will add
<Burgundavia> I will send and you can correct
<Burgundavia> claude: I am sending to ubuntu-doc
<froud> good
<Burgundavia> tis done
<claude> froud: about the scripts, it was a little bug i think
<froud> what bug
<claude> missed a "-" in releasenotes-fr.xml
<froud> no not know I am building a batch processing system
<froud> ok
<claude> probably in rebuild-xml-from-po
<jsgotangco> hello
<jsgotangco> just read the emails
<jsgotangco> just came from the mall hehe
* claude is not a script expert :(
<froud> I will be reviewing the whole process
<froud> jsgotangco: hi
<jsgotangco> Burg, froud: it would be nice if the system have a documentation change notice system for both the original author and the approving parties
<jsgotangco> so that there is an audit trail for every document change
<Burgundavia> like a history>
<froud> lenya
<Burgundavia> ?
<jsgotangco> yes
<jsgotangco> that's how we do documentation in an iso9000 environment
* froud has dug long and hard
<jsgotangco> any edits would require approval from someone but i dont think its practical for a wiki system
<Burgundavia> ouch
<Burgundavia> that is a lot of overhead
<jsgotangco> for a wiki yes
<Burgundavia> but I can see taht system for things which might be security sensitive
<Burgundavia> even for us
<Burgundavia> but if we have a robust system in place for broadcasting changes
<Burgundavia> ie. email, rss
<Burgundavia> then it shouldn't be an issue
<Burgundavia> and if we limit edits to logged in users only
<Burgundavia> then we can boot those who don't play well
<jsgotangco> i think something like that is very much possible but most of these solutions are almost always in php
<jsgotangco> *grin*
<Burgundavia> as always
* froud growns he wishes to use Apache Ant in place of make
<jsgotangco> ok ill be having dinner first bbl
<mdke> hi
<Burgundavia> salut
<mdke> i get some much japanese spam
<mdke> lol
<mdke> claude, my email to you just got blocked by your spam filter
<jsgotangco> :D
<mdke> hi jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> hi!
<jsgotangco> i just read the emails
<jsgotangco> does this mean rosetta will be the only way to translate next time?
<jsgotangco> that would be welcome since all things translation would be centralized there
<mdke> yeah probably
<mdke> but the system is so boned right now
<jsgotangco> yah i've tried it and it just doest work at  the moment
<mdke> jsgotangco, good work on about-ubuntu
<jsgotangco> oh thank you my wife and mother in law helped
<mdke> mother in law?!?
<jsgotangco> yeah nice isnt it
<mdke> heh
<mdke> you have a good relationship with your mother in law?
<mdke> extraordinary
<jsgotangco> heh in asian countries that is normal
<mdke> oh right
<mdke> yeah i forgot you guys don't have the same bitchyness that we do
<jsgotangco> hehehe mom in law can get in handy especially with kids
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> my girlfriend and mother don't have a great relationship
<jsgotangco> oh i think its ok in other countries but here, if the mother doesnt like her son's bf thats bad news for the guy
<mdke> heh
<jsgotangco> because here, the kids stay at home as long as they want to
<jsgotangco> even their wives move in in some cases
<mdke> omg
<mdke> that would be terrible
<jsgotangco> yes my mother in law lives with us haha
<mdke> nooooooo
<mdke> your lucky you get on ok then :)
<jsgotangco> it has advantages and disadvantages
<jsgotangco> but i guess i grew up in such a culture its already accepted although it sounds so alien to westerners
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> i think it depends
<mdke> on the mother-in-law
<mdke> :p
<jsgotangco> thats why when some foreigners marry to a local here, they describe it as marrying the whole family haha
<mdke> heh
<mdke> have you seen My Big Fat Greek Wedding?
<mdke> same thing
<mdke> afk
<jsgotangco> i am watching Rocky III *grin*
<jsgotangco> goodnight all!
<mdke> nite
<froud> claude: I have added transforms for the language we currently have. It's a simple solution. A more eloquent one is on th eway
<claude> thanks froud
<claude> you can also prepare for the quickguide in French :)
<claude> soon !
<froud> wow cool
<froud> hows your regulat expressions
<claude> regulat expressions ?
<froud> regular expressions
<claude> what do you mean, entities ?
<froud> I need to find only files with one -
<froud> find -type f -name  ".-.\.xml"
<froud> but that doe snot work for me
<froud> find -type f -name  "*.xml"
<froud> shows all the xml files
<froud> I just want the en one
<claude> in which directory
<froud> lets say aboutubuntu for now
<claude> k
<claude> easy if you want to find localized ones
<froud> :-) yeah
<claude> find -type f -name "*-*-??.xml"
<froud> yep that one I can do
<claude> .name option doen's take real regexp, right ?
<froud> I thought *-*.xml
<claude> no because the second * also catch the -fr
<froud> yes
<froud> hate regular expressions but they are so neccesary
<froud> -name pattern
<froud>               Base of file name (the path with the leading directories removed) matches  shell
<froud>               pattern  pattern.  The metacharacters (*', ?', and [] ') do not match a .' at
<froud>               the start of the base name.  To ignore a directory and the files under  it,  use
<froud>               -prune; see an example in the description of -path.
<claude> the problem is that it's not regexp, but wilcards
<claude> wildcards
<froud> claude: find -type f -regex [^-] +-[^-] +\.xml  
<claude> congratulations, you see that regexp is powerful !
<froud> yes it is but darn confusing
<claude> i think we could have succed also with wildcards
<claude> se  http://www.unix.org.ua/orelly/unix/upt/ch15_02.htm
<claude> froud i'm going to send you soon other pot files
<claude> don't you think it would be time for structure redesign ?
<froud> claude: cool I am hacking a really cool script to deal wit all our problems
<claude> great
<froud> want hoary released
<froud> hello sivang
<froud> tigodi ata rotze lesot tiergum bishvil kamma mismachim shel lano?
<froud> bevakasha
<froud> sivang: ping
<sivang> froud: poing
<sivang> :-)
<sivang> froud: ma matzav ach sheli ?
<froud> mienyaniem
<froud> eifo aita
<froud> lo roim ot gha mi azman
<claude> grmshhh :)
<claude> is it hebrew ?
<froud> claude: yes
<claude> very difficult to understand :)
<froud> claude: one of the languages I collected on my travells
<froud> yes :-)
<froud> if you dont speak it
<froud> I am asking sivang if he will be so kind as to translate the docs to hebrew
<claude> i've been once in israel, but in two weeks, i learned nothing :(
<froud> It took me about three years
<claude> except... shalom !
<froud> finally after living there for 10 I can utter a few sentences
<claude> is our translating process compatible with right to left languages ?
<froud> dunno, but docbook is
<claude> it will be interesting to test that
<claude> froud: did you see my mail
<froud> yes, not sure what you did
<claude> that is ?
<claude> many xml in only one pot ?
<froud> what was the problem with translating each xml
<froud> Ah neat
<froud> I see now
<claude> it makes so many pot files, multiply by number of languages...
<froud> but what happens with updates?
<claude> i made some simulations, and i believe it's ok
<froud> gosh I hope so
<froud> I too was beginning to wonder about the number of files
<claude> the filename is before each string
<claude> i check with msgmerge, that seems ok
<froud> cool now how do I use them in the translated document
<froud> how does the entity know to include the section of text in the combined file
<froud> for example a document in french will still have &conventions;
<claude> yes, that's another problem
<froud> which looks for the file conventions.xml in common/
<froud> ok stick with me on this
<claude> do you know if we can overload the entities ?
<froud> let me sketch how I was going to do it
<froud> you see th etop lines in the xml document
<froud> this
<froud> <!DOCTYPE article PUBLIC "-//OASIS//DTD DocBook XML V4.1.2//EN" 
<froud> 	"http://www.oasis-open.org/docbook/xml/4.1.2/docbookx.dtd" [
<froud> <!ENTITY % xinclude SYSTEM "../libs/xinclude.mod">
<froud> %xinclude;
<froud> <!ENTITY % globalent SYSTEM "../libs/global.ent">
<froud> %globalent;
<froud> ] >
<claude> k
<froud> the global.ent defines which files to use
<froud> in order to satisfy entities
<froud> for example in libs/global.ent
<froud> <!ENTITY distro-version SYSTEM '../VERSION'>
<froud> <!ENTITY distro-rev SYSTEM '../REVISION'>
<froud> whenever &distro-version; appears
<claude> wait a minute, i must catch our rabbit :)
<froud> it is expanded with the content in the file ../VERSION
<froud> k
<froud> while you are away
<froud> in quickguide.xml the entity &copyright; appears
<claude> bb
<froud> go
<froud> the value for &copyright; is defined in global.ent as
<froud> <!ENTITY copyright SYSTEM '../common/copyright.xml'>
<froud> so the content in ../common/copyright.xml is expanded into the document during processing time
<claude> i understand
<froud> now all we need is a global-fr.ent
<froud> to define what files are used for french
<claude> and replace global.ent by global-fr.ent in each file ?
<froud> so translators dont change &copyright;
<froud> only once
<froud> in the french file
<froud> and for it in the it file
<froud> common objects are so named because they are reused over and again
<froud> once it is sone once, it just gets reused
<froud> so if you have 100 docs
<froud> each with the same copyright
<froud> they all use the same copyright.xml
<claude> i understand this
<froud> for all fr docs will use copyright-fr.xml
<claude> you did'nt reply to my previous question
<froud> defined in global-fr.ent
<froud> as
<froud> <!ENTITY copyright SYSTEM '../common/copyright-fr.xml'>
<froud> lemme see
<froud> sorry what was it again
<claude> and replace global.ent by global-fr.ent in each file ?
<froud> example
<froud> <!DOCTYPE book PUBLIC "-//OASIS//DTD DocBook XML V4.1.2//EN" 
<froud> 	"http://www.oasis-open.org/docbook/xml/4.1.2/docbookx.dtd" [
<froud> <!ENTITY % xinclude SYSTEM "../libs/xinclude.mod">
<froud> %xinclude;
<froud> <!ENTITY % globalent SYSTEM "../libs/global-fr.ent">
<froud> %globalent;
<froud> ] >
<froud> this one change instead of changing all the entities
<claude> ok, that modification should be made in every xml file
<froud> yes all except en
<froud> each lang has a global.ent
<claude> s/global.ent/global-xx.ent/
<froud> yes :-)
<froud> what do you think?
<claude> do you know if other systems exist ?
<claude> for me, it's a good one
<froud> they all require external processing
<froud> i think if we can keep it xml it is better
<claude> yes, but every time you change the global.ent, you should update the l10n ones
<froud> yes we can limit this
<froud> by splitting the entities
<froud> for example some einities are URLs
<froud> they can be common.ent
<froud> all files regardless of lang can use them
<claude> a global that is really global, and a global specific to each language
<froud> :-)
<claude> but URL could also be localized
<froud> Hmm, eg
<claude> mailing list web page
<claude> or when the ubuntulinux web site will be localized :)
<froud> Hmm yes, in which case that will have to be in lang ent file
<froud> but authors wont
<froud> <!ENTITY author-christoph-haas SYSTEM '../common/authors/christoph-haas.xml'>
<froud>         <!ENTITY author-alexander-poslavsky SYSTEM '../common/authors/alexander-poslavsky.xml'>
<froud>         <!ENTITY author-alan-hood SYSTEM '../common/authors/alan-hood.xml'>
<froud>         <!ENTITY author-johnathon-hornbeck SYSTEM '../common/authors/johnathon-hornbeck.xml'>
<froud>         <!ENTITY author-nick-loeve SYSTEM '../common/authors/nick-loeve.xml'>
<froud>         <!ENTITY author-gordon-ingram SYSTEM '../common/authors/gordon-ingram.xml'>
<froud>         <!ENTITY author-sean-wheller SYSTEM '../common/authors/sean-wheller.xml'>
<froud>         <!ENTITY author-enrico-zini SYSTEM '../common/authors/enrico-zini.xml'>
<froud>         <!ENTITY author-kevin-muligan SYSTEM '../common/authors/kevin-muligan.xml'>
<froud>         <!ENTITY author-ari-torhamo SYSTEM '../common/authors/ari-torhamo.xml'>
<froud>         <!ENTITY author-jeff-schering SYSTEM '../common/authors/jeff-schering.xml'>
<froud>         <!ENTITY author-corey-burger SYSTEM '../common/authors/corey-burger.xml'>
<froud>         <!ENTITY author-niel-tallim SYSTEM '../common/authors/niel-tallim.xml'>
<claude> ok, ok i see... !
<claude> :)
<claude> i see some have not only their names, but also functions
<froud> should not be
<claude> not sure of this
<froud> <!ENTITY author-christoph-haas SYSTEM '../common/authors/christoph-haas.xml'>
<froud>         <!ENTITY author-alexander-poslavsky SYSTEM '../common/authors/alexander-poslavsky.xml'>
<froud>         <!ENTITY author-alan-hood SYSTEM '../common/authors/alan-hood.xml'>
<froud>         <!ENTITY author-johnathon-hornbeck SYSTEM '../common/authors/johnathon-hornbeck.xml'>
<froud>         <!ENTITY author-nick-loeve SYSTEM '../common/authors/nick-loeve.xml'>
<froud>         <!ENTITY author-gordon-ingram SYSTEM '../common/authors/gordon-ingram.xml'>
<froud>         <!ENTITY author-sean-wheller SYSTEM '../common/authors/sean-wheller.xml'>
<froud>         <!ENTITY author-enrico-zini SYSTEM '../common/authors/enrico-zini.xml'>
<froud>         <!ENTITY author-kevin-muligan SYSTEM '../common/authors/kevin-muligan.xml'>
<froud>         <!ENTITY author-ari-torhamo SYSTEM '../common/authors/ari-torhamo.xml'>
<froud>         <!ENTITY author-jeff-schering SYSTEM '../common/authors/jeff-schering.xml'>
<froud>         <!ENTITY author-corey-burger SYSTEM '../common/authors/corey-burger.xml'>
<froud>         <!ENTITY author-niel-tallim SYSTEM '../common/authors/niel-tallim.xml'>
<froud> opps
<froud> sorry
<froud> umm. the advantage I see is translate once and use often
<froud> cuts down on translators work
<froud> disadvantage is we have many files
<claude> do you use biblio.xml now ?
<froud> but at some point this should stabilize
<froud> no
<froud> yelp dont support it
<froud> btw with docbook all generated texts are already done
<claude> i did'nt include it in common.pot
<claude> already done ?
<froud> yes docbooks has a full set of generated texts
<froud> for example if you have a Chapter 1
<froud> the word Chapter is generated text
<froud> you dont type it inmanually
<froud> it picks up what to do by the attribute lang="" on the root element
<froud> eg lang="fr'
<claude> where should it be ?
<froud> the root element
<froud> <book lang="en" id="quickguide">
<claude> and where is this directive
<froud> In the Docbook XSLs
<froud> At time of processing the correct gentext files are selected
<froud> if lang is null defaults to en
<claude> in what file exactly for the quickguide ?
<froud> in the xml file itself
<froud> <?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
<froud> <!DOCTYPE book PUBLIC "-//OASIS//DTD DocBook XML V4.1.2//EN" 
<froud> 	"http://www.oasis-open.org/docbook/xml/4.1.2/docbookx.dtd" [
<froud> <!ENTITY % xinclude SYSTEM "../libs/xinclude.mod">
<froud> %xinclude;
<froud> <!ENTITY % globalent SYSTEM "../libs/global.ent">
<froud> %globalent;
<froud> ] >
<froud> <!-- PROCESSING INSTRUCTION FOR GNOME YELP uncomment for use in Yelp -->
<froud> <?yelp:chunk-depth 3?>
<froud> <book lang="en" id="quickguide">
<froud>     <title>&inline-ubuntu-icon; <phrase>Quick Guide</phrase>
<claude> i'm blind...
<froud> tired
<claude> :)
<froud> at processing time the xsl and xml are input to xsltproc
<froud> the xsl tests for lang
<claude> this should be fixed by the scripts when recreating the xml from po
<froud> yes
<froud> sed
<froud> this is why I take so long for the scripts
<claude> in the same manner than global.ent
<froud> the script also makes pot files
<froud> also does msmerge if required etc
<froud> yes
<froud> test -n "$VERBOSE" && echo xml2pot $i $j
<froud> 	    xml2pot ../../../$i > $m/$j.pot.new
<froud> 	    if test -s $m/$j.pot.new; then
<froud> 		msgmerge -o $m/$j.pot.new -i $m/$j.pot.new $m/$j.pot.new 2> /dev/null
<froud> 		if ! cmp -s $m/$j.pot.new $m/$j.pot; then
<froud> 		    mv $m/$j.pot.new $m/$j.pot
<froud> 		else
<froud> 		    rm $m/$j.pot.new
<froud> 		fi
<froud> 	    fi
<froud> this was taken from kde
<claude> fiouuu
<froud> wip
<froud> work in progress
<froud> does not work yet
<froud> well, you think this system can work
<claude> of course, if it came from you :)
<froud> because if I have a single pot I dont know how to create the xml's and expand them into the docs at proc
<froud> claude: I am going but the seat of my pants with this i18n stuff
<froud> question?
<froud> how can I automate the upload of a new or modified pot to rosetta
<froud> the same for po files
<claude> that should be asked to carlos or daff
<claude> but rosetta still have many problems
<froud> if we have 100 p files changed because of an edit I dont want to upload them one at a time
<froud> I want a fire and forget process
<claude> of course
<froud> I want a perfect world!!!
<froud> I want it now
* froud throws all the toys out of the cot
<claude> quiet please
<froud> I want my dummies
<claude> :)
<froud> oh shoot this i18n stuff is gonna be a bug challenge
<claude> yes, but it's very important
<froud> s/bug/big
<froud> very
<froud> well I am going back to this script
<claude> when there is an english word every two sentences, that makes very amateur
<claude> ok, i let you work
<froud> ok
<claude> if i can help...
<claude> froud: sorry, but do you know why xml2pot with xml files in menus doesn't produce anything (except header) ?
<claude> xml2pot common/menus/accessories.xml
<froud> Hmm no have not tested
<froud> what comand ar eyou runing
<froud> lemme see
<claude> see above
<froud> wierd
<claude> do you want that i post to the list ?
<froud> to translators lists
<froud> would be a good idea
<froud> claude: seems parser.cpp does not support touching menuchoice elements
<froud> claude: we will need our own script for this
<claude> heh
<froud> within normal context it would not make sense to create a po for menuchoice since it is used inline
<froud> however in our context it does make sense
<claude> could we use another xml tag for this ?
<froud> no
<claude> k, so let's script :)
<froud> howver if the menuchoice is wrapped in sect1 it does work
<froud> but I will script it anyway it is will be neater
<claude> thx
#ubuntu-doc 2005-04-14
<froud> African Greetings
<mdke> hi all
<mdke> froud, you know the aboutubuntu document there are two pages? how come the first page doesn't not have a title in the left hand menu bar of yelp? the second page has one. Is this intentional?
<froud> No it is not
<mdke> oh
<froud> the should be resolved do a svn up and check in your working copy
<mdke> hmm
<froud> problem was yelp does not know what to do with images
<mdke> i checked last night but will update again
<froud> in the title
<froud> Hmm it was not fixed
<froud> but I dont want to chang eit now due to the string freeze
<mdke> ok np
<froud> but did you notice that the Help now has the ubuntu stuff on the first page
<froud> And About Ubuntu option now opens the correct document
<mdke> yeah that is really good
<mdke> its a shame about that aboutubuntu thing
<froud> these things happen
<froud> it's open source so people do what they can
<froud> and we had lots to do, so things like this are just an annoyance
<mdke> yeah
<Liz> anyone know anything about usb ports?
<froud> why what is wrong
<Liz> did an upgrade just recently..now i have no usb ports at all
<Liz> it doesnt show up in /dev/ 
<Liz> nothing
<froud> cant help 
<froud> hav eyou tried #ubuntu
<Liz> yes
<Liz> tried earlier today as well
<Liz> i really need to get that to work..my assignments for uni are on there
<Liz> its easier than emailing to myself 
<froud> :-( sorry I am not much help
<Liz> oh well..no worries
<Liz> i just wonder what they updated, that makes it this way
<froud> Liz: try #ubuntu-devel
<froud> they will be interested to know this happend
<Liz> i also just emailed the list
<Liz> and posted a bugzilla now too
<Liz> neway..im going to bed..its after midnight..and i got tests tomorrow
<Liz> ugh
<Liz> nite froud
<froud> c ya
<froud> sweet dream
<habib> My soundcore.ko n other files r with out permission, this could be cause I update my gcc version!? what should I do!?
<froud> you should try ask on #ubuntu
<habib> I already try! but no body answer me :(
<froud> you could try changing the permissions on the required files
<froud> sorry I cannot be of much help, but if this is a problem due to an upgrade made via synaptic or apt-get install then you should bring the problem attention of the #ubuntu-devel
<habib> already try tihs, but root don't have permission :s
<froud> if it is cause of a manual upgrade then you will have to ask on #kubuntu
<habib> I wiil try there
<froud> change the permissions using sudo
<froud> ok
<habib> thanx froud, I will try
<skyrider> Guys, did someone of you noticed soma strange behaviour of ubuntu wiki?
<skyrider> About two hours ago I changed a page about myself (AlexeyMolchanov) and saved it.
<skyrider> But now I reload that page and I see 1 week old copy of my page :(((
<froud> skyrider: you sure your browser is or proxy is not caching
<skyrider> froud: i'll try one more time now...
<froud> just refrsh 3 times
<froud> in a row
<skyrider> I refreshed 3 times (with control+refresh) - nothing changed :(
* skyrider starts to hate zwiki :(
<froud> give me the url
<skyrider> froud: https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/AlexeyMolchanov
<froud> what did you change
<skyrider> little addons there and there... nothing global
<froud> iow what should i c that you dont see now
<skyrider> I greatly changed "My current Ubuntu activities"
<froud> dude i cant help if dont know what you wrote, give examples
<skyrider> "I'm planning to create Russian Local Community Team." I changed to "I've created Russian Local Community Team". Also I added info about forum http://forum.ubuntu-ru.org/ and wiki
<skyrider> Is that enought?
<froud> hold
<skyrider> Previous version of that page didn't had references to  http://forum.ubuntu-ru.org/ at all
<froud> skyrider: yeah, totally lost all edits
<froud> and nothing in history
<froud> i have no way to help
<froud> other than suggest try again :-(
<skyrider> froud: :(
<skyrider> froud: thanks for help anyway
<skyrider> I'll start all over again...
<froud> anyone else know this prblem
<mdke> anyone know anything about the wiki rss feed?
<skyrider> Hi guys! There is a problem with https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki :(
<skyrider> When I try to access it I got:
<skyrider> Bad Gateway
<skyrider> The proxy server received an invalid response from an upstream server.
<skyrider> Additionally, a 502 Bad Gateway error was encountered while trying to use an ErrorDocument to handle the request.
<skyrider> :(
<skyrider> Bad Gateway
<skyrider> The proxy server received an invalid response from an upstream server.
<skyrider> Oops, sorry for dup :(
<mdke> #ubuntu-devel
<skyrider> mdke: should I say this on #ubuntu-devel?
<mdke> they can reboot the server
<skyrider> ok
<mdke> seems to work now
<skyrider> yep, works again
<skyrider> good :)
#ubuntu-doc 2005-04-15
<dannemare> Can anybody tell me why the wiki was rolled back to April 1st, and whether stuff added after April 1st to today can be restored (I assume there's a nightly backup or something)?
<jsgotangco> hmmm the xml is messed up
<Liz> mornin jsgotangco 
<Liz> mornin all
<jsgotangco> hi Liz!
<jsgotangco> Liz: u familiar with po files?
<Liz> no, no idea at all about po files
<jsgotangco> ok i was checking the xml from svn and one of them is pretty messed up and had to fix it
<Liz> ill have to check that out in a bit
<Liz> sigh..it seems i dont have time for a lot of things at late
<Liz> brb
<jsgotangco> *grin* okie dokie
<froud> African Greetings
<Burgundavia> salut
<froud> Burgundavia: morn
<Burgundavia> I have been doing a lot of helping on #ubuntu
<froud> So I see
<Burgundavia> realized where our docs need to be taken up to snuff
<froud> great
<froud> sure
<froud> how's your shell scripting
<Burgundavia> not great I must say
<froud> I have sent a mail to the list
<froud> added two scripts to svn
<froud> make-pot and make-po
<Burgundavia> ok
<froud> make pot works my side
<froud> make po fails
<froud> I cant find out why
<froud> can you test make-pot
<Burgundavia> yep
<froud> can you debug make-po
<Burgundavia> np
<Burgundavia> I can try
<jsgotangco> froud: the patch is for about-ubuntu-tl.xml
<jsgotangco> not it
<froud> jsgotangco: AH
<froud> Thanks
<jsgotangco> my working copy is now valid and well-formed
<Burgundavia> http://images.linspire.com/quickstartfive-0/QuickStart5.0-online5.pdf
<Burgundavia> take a check at that
<Burgundavia> very markety-driven, but some nice stuff
<jsgotangco> ohhh
<froud> Burgundavia: yes, we need this in our USer Guide
<jsgotangco> ya linspire has some pretty good marketing indeed
<froud> jsgotangco: when you make patches try keep the same filename only add a .diff 
<jsgotangco> ahh
<froud> it was my fault for not checking
<froud> but I just woke up
<jsgotangco> hehe thats what i guessed *grin*
<Burgundavia> ok, so I don't need to do anything?
<froud> Burgundavia: no the scripts are still need testing and debug
<Burgundavia> ok
<Burgundavia> will do
<froud> Burgundavia: svn up and look at them in trunk
<Burgundavia> I will
<froud> Thanks
<jsgotangco> oh nice scripts
<froud> jsgotangco: glad you like them
<froud> jsgotangco: if you are good with shell you can test make-pot
<jsgotangco> yes i tried them out just now
<froud> jsgotangco: I have problems with make-po
<froud> well guys coffee is finsihed and the day starts. Must go
<froud> c ya later
<jsgotangco> cya
<jsgotangco> urrrkk my OOo2 fonts are screwed
<Burgundavia> I installed mscore fonts. I am regretting it
<Burgundavia> it borked my system fonts
<jsgotangco> hmm
<enrico> hello!
<Burgundavia> salut
<enrico> I'm online again for a bit.  Any urgent things for Hoary release?
<Burgundavia> check out froud make-po and make-pot scripts
<Kinnison> Morning
<Burgundavia> salut Kinnison, long time no talk
* Kinnison nods
<Kinnison> Been busy
* Kinnison has 2Mbit ADSL now :-)
* Kinnison bounces
<Burgundavia> cool
* Kinnison tests it by refreshing his ubuntu mirror
<Burgundavia> spent 12 hours building a new machine for my brother and setting up XP on it
<Burgundavia> I have almost converted him
<Kinnison> Heh
<Burgundavia> 2 hours looking for a license key
<Burgundavia> 2 hours installing, removing and reinstalling SP2
<Burgundavia> and when I left we hadn't set up most of his apps
<enrico> Burgundavia: anything urgent?
<jsgotangco> hi
<Burgundavia> enrico: froud asked me to check out those 2 shell scripts
<Burgundavia> enrico: more translating work
<enrico> Do I understand that translation work is not urgent for Hoary, but will go out in language packs later?
<Burgundavia> no idea
<Burgundavia> not in on that
<enrico> AFAIUnderstand, but I can be wrong, the current packages are not too bad (excluding translations) and I wouldn't like to break stuff by uploading radically different (and less tested) things with translation updates if it's not needed, considering that we're 2 days to release and I'm seldom online
<Burgundavia> ok
<Burgundavia> I haven't done much with the doc team recently
<Burgundavia> expect to start next weekend
<enrico> ok, thanks
<Kinnison> Burgundavia: as soon as hoary's out the door? :-)
<Burgundavia> yeppers
<Kinnison> sneaky :-)
<Burgundavia> sneaky?
<Burgundavia> I don't have any experience with po files
<Burgundavia> so I think I would get in the way
* Kinnison grins
<enrico> Kinnison: are translations supposed to get out in two days or later with language packs?
<enrico> Kinnison: and BTW, what's a language pack?
<Kinnison> enrico: not a clue (on both counts)
* Kinnison isn't an Ubuntu team member
<enrico> ok
<jsgotangco> i think the translated xml files should be tested thoroughly because i've patched one today which was malformed
<jsgotangco> probably a po conversion thing
<jsgotangco> bye bye
<mdke> hi all
<mdke> can anything be done about the wiki?
<Kinnison> how do you mean?
<mdke> hi Kinnison 
<mdke> well that business about it being reverted back to a few days ago
<mdke> i would say about 10 pages have been lost
<mdke> and 200 changes ;)
<Kinnison> Oh right
<Kinnison> dunno about that :-)
<mdke> enrico: Do I understand that translation work is not urgent for Hoary, but will go out in language packs later?
<mdke> there is a difficult question to resolve about whether the translations are to be packaged from our sources or from rosetta
<enrico> mdke: I don't have it clear either
<enrico> I'll try to package what we have now (wonder how I'll find the time)
<enrico> then we'll all see and learn :)
<mdke> enrico, ok :)
<mdke> enrico, the problem is that we started doing translations and committing them in svn
<mdke> and rosetta suddely came up at the end of last week
<mdke> with a million crappy bugs
<froud> African Greetings
<mdke> hi froud
<mdke> :))
<froud> Hi
<froud> enrico: di dyou get my message
<enrico> hi !!
<enrico> froud: just got it
<enrico> and read it
<froud> OK
<froud> we tagged in tags/
<froud> ubuntu-doc0.4
<froud> few updates made to the en docs
<froud> since tagging
<froud> i18n stuff roles in
<enrico> froud: someone told me that the .po shouldn't be installed, but the resulting xmls should
<froud> true
<froud> the po are internal
<mdke> yeh
<mdke> but i am slightly concerned that if they get translated in rosetta too, they will be packaged there as well, and clash with ours
<froud> I am holding on making heavy process env changes
<froud> claude is working with us on that
<froud> we just use the po files to create xml
<froud> as the system now stands it will package in the same way as before
<froud> this excludes lang for now
<froud> we can opt to make packages for langs
<froud>  or not
<enrico> I'm trying to finish one work, then I'll get to the ubuntu-docs
<froud> sure
<froud> I have scripted the pot creating process
<froud> see make-pot
<froud> I am trying to script the po2xml process
<froud> broken script is in svn see make-po
<froud> claude and I worked out solution to transform all langs
<froud> have not implimented yet
<froud> waiting post hoary
<froud> needs svn restructure
<mdke> someone should have a word with the rosetta people tho and work out the relationship between the two things
<mdke> imo
<froud> we give them pot 
<froud> they give po into rosetta and to us
<froud> we transform po to xml
<froud> we transform lang-xml to lang-html
<froud> the package can either happen here or thier
<mdke> but imo it should not happen in both
<mdke> also because things get translated twice
<froud> if we have pot and po then we can update pot and po so saving translation time
<froud> e.g
<froud> we edit releasenotes
<froud> we msmerge to pot
<froud> we merge the changes in pot to the po files
<froud> translators get po file 90% translated and work only on the changes
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> then imo it is wise to remove the (2 copies of) release notes from rosetta
<froud> we can seak to daff about automation between us and rosetta
<mdke> ok
<enrico> sure, that's how it works
<mdke> that's all i'm saying
<froud> we have the following interactions
<mdke> i'm the docs are going to be translated in our tree, they shouldn't go to rosetta too, it is counterproductive
<froud> we need to give pot and any changes
<mdke> hi dannemare 
<froud> we need to give po changes
<froud> how do translators make xml and packages
<mdke> froud, i don't follow you. You are suggesting getting people to translate doc team docs both in and outside of rosetta?
<froud> mdke: no it is collaborative
<froud> we send pot
<froud> they send po from rosetta
<mdke> ok so just inside
<mdke> phew
<froud> thing is after the first translation
<froud> we must care that they dont need to translate over and again
<mdke> quite
<froud> so me manage merges
<froud> and push the diff into rosetta
<mdke> well good luck
<froud> when they finish the translation of the diff they send us back the po
<froud> the po also still resides in rosetta
<mdke> ideally i suppose it would be best to have an earlier freeze of documents
<froud> but since the primary lang is en it makes sense for us to drive
<mdke> so that no further changes are made
<froud> yes this is the idea, but coordination is still rough
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> and it is crazy that there are two copies of releasenotes and aboutubuntu in rosetta
<mdke> not sure why that happened
<mdke> anyway
<froud> I cant control what happens there
<mdke> what is the distinction you're making between .pot and .po files?
<froud> To me it must be a black box to us
<froud> pot is the template
<froud> translators make copies of the pot and save as po
<froud> each translates to a different lang
<mdke> so just for clarity's sake?
<mdke> there is nothing actually different about the file format?
<froud> no really
<mdke> ok
<froud> enrico: do we package or do they
<mdke> lol
<enrico> I guess we do
<enrico> .debs always have inside their translations
<enrico> then (special for Ubuntu) they'll automatically extract the translated stuff and make "language packs" out of that
<froud> enrico: and how do the documents get into the user desktop
<enrico> but the translations are in the packages
<froud> ok for now I have files together in the same dir
<froud> so all aboutubuntu is in aboutubuntu/
<froud> ls
<froud> about-ubuntu-ca.po   about-ubuntu-fr.xml  about-ubuntu.pot     about-ubuntu-tl.po   about-ubuntu-xh.xml
<froud> about-ubuntu-ca.xml  about-ubuntu-it.po   about-ubuntu-pt.po   about-ubuntu-tl.xml  about-ubuntu.xml
<froud> about-ubuntu-fr.po   about-ubuntu-it.xml  about-ubuntu-pt.xml  about-ubuntu-xh.po
<froud> for the entities to work they must be packaged in the same way we did the en docs
<froud> soon we will have global-lang.net for each lang
<mdke> german is being done in rosetta
<mdke> twice
<froud> and things like menus will also be translated
<mdke> because of the duplicates
<froud> mdke: I cant help them there
<froud> mdke: all I can do is manage our domain
<mdke> yeah i know
* enrico has still a couple of bugs to fix
<enrico> I'll be active in an hour or so
<mdke> we will not get the po files until someone speaks to daff about it tho i think
<froud> I tought claude was speaking to them
<froud> Somebody at Rosetta needs a wc of our svn
<mdke> bah
<froud> then they can patch and get our updates to pots and pos
<mdke> didn't they speak to us before thinking of inserting our documents into rosetta?
<mdke> i'll email
<froud> is there an IRC channel
<froud> enrico:  is there an IRC channel
<enrico> for what?
<mdke> #canonical? :p
<froud> i18n
<enrico> #ubuntu-dev, I'd say
<mdke> el
<froud> what is daff's nick
<enrico> daf
<mdke> yeah
<froud> no daff there
<enrico> "daf"
<mdke> * [daf]  (daf@muse.19inch.net): Dafydd
<mdke> * [daf]  irc.freenode.net :http://freenode.net/
<mdke> * [daf]  is away (teithio)
<mdke> * [daf]  is an identified user
<mdke> * [daf]  idle 00:37:31, signon: Tue Mar 29 10:23:56
<mdke> * [daf]  End of WHOIS list.
<mdke> might be him
<enrico> That's it
<mdke> not on any channel
<froud> who else to speak to
<mdke> sabfdl
<mdke> ?
<enrico> no
<enrico> seb128 is another one
<mdke> he intervenes on the rosetta list from time to time
* froud does not touch sabfdl unless he has to
<mdke> heh
<mdke> i would just go for daf
<mdke> i'm gonna email just in case
<seb128> hi
<mdke> ciao
<froud> seb128: hi
<froud> seb128: we need to discuss interaction
<froud> between us and rosetta
<froud> can you help
<seb128> not really
<froud> is it only daff who can help
<seb128> you probably want to speak with carlos/pitti for that
<mdke> have emailed daf
<mdke> asked him to get in touch with you, froud
<mdke> or enrico 
<froud> mdke: thank
<froud> seb128: ok thanks
<pitti> Hi everybody
<froud> hi
<seb128> hey pitti :)
<mdke> hi pitti 
<froud> pitti we need to discuss interaction between docteam and rosetta
<froud> can you help
<pitti> hmm, I'm not really a Rosetta dude, but what's the particular question?
<pitti> I ping carlos
<froud> pitti: hang with me while I explain this
<mdke> i'm going for a shower
<froud> we write docs in en
<froud> we make pot files
<froud> we send pot to i18n teams
<froud> we get back po file
<froud> we make xml-lang from po files
<pitti> sounds great
<froud> xml-en pot po and xml-lang are in svn
<froud> when we make changes in en we merge through to pot and po files
<froud> and cycle starts again
<froud> we need somebody in Rosetta who has wc of our svn
<froud> this way they can manage to addition/update of any pot/po files in rosetta
<froud>  and patch back to us
<pitti> wc = write capability?
<froud> how can we get this kind of process
<froud> pitti: working copy of svn
<pitti> ah
<froud> we can give commit account
<froud> +
<froud> we need to arrange packaging
<froud> lang packs
<pitti> hmm, so at least Rosetta should automatically import your svn
<froud> not all
<froud> only changes
<froud> and xml is not required in rosetta
<pitti> lang packs> you mean, add the per-language docs as dependencies of language-support-LANG?
<froud> here is a ls of the aboutubuntu dir in svn
<froud> ls
<froud> about-ubuntu-ca.po   about-ubuntu-fr.xml  about-ubuntu.pot     about-ubuntu-tl.po   about-ubuntu-xh.xml
<froud> about-ubuntu-ca.xml  about-ubuntu-it.po   about-ubuntu-pt.po   about-ubuntu-tl.xml  about-ubuntu.xml
<froud> about-ubuntu-fr.po   about-ubuntu-it.xml  about-ubuntu-pt.xml  about-ubuntu-xh.po
<froud> Yes I french use needs to see about-ubuntu-fr.xml
<froud> s/I/a/
<pitti> oh, you mean the xml files are not packaged in a deb right now?
<seb128> speaking about than, somebody has planned to fix the package for hoary ? 
<froud> s/use/user
<froud> seb128: maybe enrico
<pitti> froud: right now langpack-o-matic can't put anything else than po files into language packs
<seb128> froud: no, not enrico
<seb128> I've spoken with him this morning
<seb128> he's away until the 8th and we want that before the 6th
<enrico> seb128: I can try to do something this a'noon
<froud> pitti: any requirements we need to adhere to in order to provide support to this
<enrico> although I can't guarantee how it turns out
<pitti> froud: the xml files are not shipped at all right now?
<seb128> enrico: I'll do it tomorrow if nobody else do it, let me know
<froud> You need just HTML
<seb128> pitti: no, the package is b0rked atm
<seb128> there is some random po in the wrong directory which doesn't work
<pitti> seb128: yeah, but in principle there is a package for these?
<seb128> ubuntu-doc
<froud> ubuntu-doc has all the files
<froud> no HTML though
<seb128> there is no need of html files, is it ?
<seb128> the xml files are enough
<froud> if under yelp yes
<froud> in not no
<seb128> yelp use xml files
<froud> About Ubuntu is HTML
<froud> Not Under Yelp
<seb128> oh, the start-page for firefox you mean
<froud> Release NOtes is xml under yelp
<froud> Anything GNOME is Yelp
<seb128> right
<froud> Anything Generic is not
<seb128> speaking about "about-ubuntu"
<seb128> the main page has no title 
<seb128> is that know ?
<seb128> ie: the line is empty for the index
<froud> Hmm aboutubuntu is loading in yelp
<froud> seb128: yes known problem
<seb128> k
<seb128> yep, about-ubuntu is an xml file for yelp
<froud> new version of yelp dont know what to do when image in title
<froud> OK, so anyting loading under Yelp needs only XML
<froud> but we get away from th epoint
<froud> how to get language specific files to show
<froud> if I am using Xhosa I want about ubuntu is Xhosa
<seb128> /usr/share/gnome/help/about-ubuntu/nn/about-ubuntu.xml
<seb128> where nn is the locale to use
<seb128> just copy the translation for nn here
<froud> this will break our system at present
<froud> we currently have no support for the nn
<seb128> but that's the way it works
<froud> post hoary we will
<seb128> we can workaround that for hoary
<pitti> uh, that sounds a bit scary, as if we could not properly integrate this by hoary
<seb128> ie: change the package to copy them to right place
<seb128> pitti: we can just hack debian/rules for hoary
<pitti> yeah
<froud> seb128: providing that all files remain in the same folder as the en document it will work
<froud> ls
<froud> about-ubuntu-ca.po   about-ubuntu-fr.xml  about-ubuntu.pot     about-ubuntu-tl.po   about-ubuntu-xh.xml
<froud> about-ubuntu-ca.xml  about-ubuntu-it.po   about-ubuntu-pt.po   about-ubuntu-tl.xml  about-ubuntu.xml
<froud> about-ubuntu-fr.po   about-ubuntu-it.xml  about-ubuntu-pt.xml  about-ubuntu-xh.po
<froud> seb128: I must go fetch my son from school
<froud> brb
<seb128> later
<pitti> so ubuntu-doc must just be tweaked to put the files into the right place?
<seb128> that's my view of the issue 
<froud> pitti: no ubuntu-doc puts them in the righ place
<seb128> yelp will look to /usr/share/gnome/help/about-ubuntu/nn/about-ubuntu.xml afaik
<froud> but it is not according to the convention of nn
<pitti> hmm, I can't find ubuntu-doc in the archive
<seb128> plural
<pitti> ah, sorry
<pitti> froud: AFAICS there are no per-language debs
<seb128> no, there is not
<pitti> froud: so there's no point in integrating this with langpacks
<mdke> but it should be noted that there is a german translation going on in rosetta. If you decide to package it with ubuntu-docs, we need to get hold of that
<seb128> pitti: I don't know, but we could ship /usr/share/gnome/help/about-ubuntu/nn/about-ubuntu.xml with language-pack-nn
<pitti> seb128: yeah, but this requires major design changes in langpack-o-matic :-/
<seb128> k
<pitti> sb should have told me earlier
<seb128> so let's just hack ubuntu-docs for hoary
<pitti> seb128, froud: can we just ship all translations in one deb for hoary?
<pitti> how big are they?
<seb128> 7,7K 2005-03-26 22:45 about-ubuntu.xml
<seb128> 178K 2005-03-25 06:06 quickguide.xml
<seb128> 29K 2005-03-19 00:02 release-notes.xml
<seb128> Package: ubuntu-docs
<seb128> Size: 278202
<seb128> atm
<mdke> plus the languages
<pitti> so, 270 KB times #translations?
<seb128> yeah
<seb128> right
<pitti> that doesn't sound too bad
<pitti> for hoary
<mdke> ok
<mdke> how can we get hold of the german translation in rosetta and make an xml?
<pitti> mdke: you can download the po files
<mdke> right
<pitti> mdke: please talk with carlos, he can make provisions that it can be done automatically
<mdke> i've emailed daf and i can talk to the german users
<mdke> is carlos here?
<pitti> mdke: I pinged him and invited him
<mdke> right
<pitti> no response so far, he's away ATM
<mdke> k
<mdke> when do you need em for packaging?
<seb128> today
<mdke> shit
<mdke> ok i'll chase up an italian one too
<seb128> $ ls aboutubuntu/*.xml
<seb128> aboutubuntu/about-ubuntu-ca.xml  aboutubuntu/about-ubuntu-tl.xml
<seb128> aboutubuntu/about-ubuntu-fr.xml  aboutubuntu/about-ubuntu-xh.xml
<seb128> aboutubuntu/about-ubuntu-it.xml  aboutubuntu/about-ubuntu.xml
<seb128> aboutubuntu/about-ubuntu-pt.xml
<seb128> 
<seb128> the SVN has that atm
<mdke> yeah not releasenotes tho
<seb128> the about-ubuntu is the visible part
<seb128> ie: the panel entry "About Ubuntu" 
<mdke> so will you be packaging releasenotes with it or just aboutubuntu?
<mdke> seb128, ^
<froud> seb128: do we need omf files for the language specific docs
<seb128> I don't know
<seb128> I just know than copying the xml translation to /usr/share/gnome/help/about-ubuntu/nn/about-ubuntu.xml works
<froud> as I understand to get the en doc to show in yelp we must register it with scrollkeeper
<froud> not sure if we need the same for nn
<froud> Ok have a meeting. Somebody post to the list what is being done and who is doing what, please :-)
<froud> we have no reports lately
<seb128> you can try to copy the xml file to nn/about-ubuntu.xml
<mdke> i am emailing carlos to ask about the german docs, so am i just asking for about-ubuntu or both?
<seb128> whatever you want
<mdke> :(
<seb128> ?
<mdke> if you tell me what you are packaging i will ask for them
<seb128> we are packaging what is available when we do the package
<mdke> ok
<seb128> but we don't force you to do anything
<seb128> you do whatever you want
<mdke> whoa
<mdke> i'm just trying to help
<seb128> so what's the problem ?
<mdke> i wasn't sure what you were gonna package
<seb128> all the files are to translate
<seb128> we use what is translated
<mdke> ok ty
<seb128> np
<pitti> carlos is back
<pitti> darn, now froud is away *sigh*
<carlos> hi
<pitti> Hi carlos
<seb128> ah ah, carlos doing translation on a non-working day
<seb128> I knew it :p
<carlos> pitti: tell me
<seb128> hey carlos :)
<pitti> fround has some quesitons wrt rosetta integration of ubuntu-docs
<pitti> carlos: unfortunately fround is away now
<pitti> carlos: oh, you have holiday today? sorry for disturbing
<carlos> seb128: well, I'm not working, just come back from the airport, and saw the martin's ping :-P
<seb128> what do you do to the airport ?
<mdke> hi carlos 
<carlos> pitti: don't worry
<carlos> I'm taking an eye in Rosetta today
<carlos> because Daf is traveling
<carlos> seb128: daf left Valencia
<carlos> mdke: hi
<mdke> carlos, i just sent you an email :)
<seb128> carlos: oh, k
<carlos> mdke: ok
<mdke> the discussion concerns packaging of the docteam documents and translations
<mdke> pitti and seb128 have offered to package them separately for hoary
<pitti> erm, separately for breezy, that is
<mdke> ??
<mdke> mdke when do you need em for packaging?
<mdke> seb128 today
<carlos> package what separately?
<carlos> every translation in a different package?
<mdke> i don't know
<pitti> yeah
<pitti> carlos: at least that was what I understood
<pitti> carlos: then we can integrate that into language-support-*
<carlos> If you are going to use .po files as the way to translate documentation, I think you should create a package with the english sources that creates the .pot file with a rule and another rule to get the .po file and create the translated docbook file
<mdke> i'm gonna leave you guys to it
<mdke> seems like i haven't understood what's going on
<mdke> as long as you know some translations are in rosetta, some are in docteam svn
<carlos> mdke: the point is that or you use Rosetta or you use svn
<carlos> if you are going to use .po files
<carlos> Rosetta should be mandatory
<carlos> you don't need to translate with rosetta if you don't want
<carlos> but you should get and submit the translations with rosetta
<mdke> brb
<carlos> if you choose a mis model, you will get out of sync easily
<mdke> phone
<carlos> as this is not urgent, could we talk about it tomorrow?
<carlos> I'm on holidays today
<carlos> and need to recharge my batteries 
* carlos goes to have lunch
<mdke> carlos, whatever you prefer. But seb128 said he wanted the documents today
<mdke> and the mixed system was not intentional
<mdke> it occured because we were submitting translations to svn, and then they suddenly appeared in rosetta too
<mdke> it is fine to work out a system using only rosetta for breezy, but I think we should try and get as many translations into hoary as possible
<mdke> ok i'm off too now
<froud> carlos: 
<froud> carlos: when you get back ping me I will explain
<pitti> froud: seems you two have a talent for missing each other...
<froud> pitti: he's at lunch and still tuned so there is hope yet :-)
* enrico is here
<enrico> sooo
<enrico> what is that generates the translated xml files?
<mdke> froud does it with po2xml i think
<mdke> but i think he is making a script
<froud> enrico: po2xml but my script make-po does not work :-(
<froud> enrico: but the make-pot works well
<enrico> let's debug that
<froud> enrico: perhaps you can look at it
<froud> you have more skill with shell script than I
<froud> the general idea of the process is encapuslated by the code
<froud> but consider this
<enrico> bash arrays... cool!
<enrico> never used that
<froud> we get po
<froud> you dont have too use the array if you dont want
<froud> you can just use a pain for loop if you wish
<froud> look at make-pot
<froud> then model make-po on it
<enrico> what package is po2xml in?
<froud> KDESDK
<enrico> ok :)
<froud> which po2xml
<froud> /opt/kde3/bin/po2xml
<enrico> poxml
<enrico> apt-get install poxml
<enrico> it's in there
<froud> no that is gnome isnt it
<froud> we use xml2pot and po2xml from kdesdk
<froud> the gnome one is problematic
<froud> a few of us tried it and it gave problems
<enrico> oh :(
<froud> also they are not compaible :-(
<froud> enrico: the idea is that the creating and maintenance of POT and PO should be automatic
<froud> as simple as saying make pot or make po
<enrico> sure
<froud> the scripts should look in any folder defined in modules=" "
<enrico> apt-cache show poxml
<mdke> froud, have got de docs
<enrico> "This package is part of the KDE Software Development Kit."
<mdke> :)
<enrico> good, it's the right one
<froud> enrico: yes
<froud> mdke: great 
<froud> for testing I have limited the modules on which the scripts run
<froud> once we are happy we can traverse the entire structure
<froud> I am writing another script to do the menus
<froud> seems that parser.cpp in xml2pot does not touch <menuchoice> elements
<froud> this makes sense in context of large docs
<froud> but is not good in our context
<froud> as our menus are expanded from entities
<froud> for processing we will also add a new entity to our DocType Decl
<froud> we will have a global.ent and a global-nn.ent
<froud> where nn = lang code
<froud> stuff like conventions, legal notice and copyright
<froud> translated once
<froud> and the lang docs will pickup the correct version of these files from the global-nn.ent
<mdke> froud, sent
<froud> hope you understand all this
<froud> mdke: thanks
* mdke sighs with relief and concentrates on his exam
<froud> mdke: you stress too much dude ;-)
* mdke pops pills
<mdke> its because I care
<froud> trust the community, the power is there
<mdke> people have put effort into the translations
<froud> the force is tring with Ubuntu
<mdke> heh
<froud> strong
<mdke> ok see you later
<froud> ok
<enrico> froud: how come you want to diff and patch the translated xml file instead of just overwriting it?
<mdke> oh btw froud the german file may need testing as it was done with whatever old version of the .pot was uploaded to rosetta
<froud> script is run on working copy
<mdke> (enrico, can you moderate my mail to the list with the attachments pls)
<enrico> mdke: Mary is doing moderation atm
<mdke> damn
<enrico> mdke: although I can do it
<enrico> as well
<mdke> will send them individually if you like
<enrico> I just need to dig for the passwords
<froud> we only want to commit diff
<enrico> wait
<enrico> commit diff?
<enrico> why commit at all?
<mdke> enrico, don't worry will send them separately
<froud> must commit at some point. Not the diff file
<enrico> I mean, one commits the original, the translated po-s and the rest is generated by the makefile
<enrico> mdke: I'm moderating it in
<froud> yes, but no saying how the structure of the new xml file is
<enrico> so tell me if you intend to send them separated
<froud> to patch in working copy first is safer, no?
<mdke> enrico, too late i cancelled it
<enrico> what's the problem with the xml file's structure?
<enrico> mdke: ok
<froud> the .new xml is created from th epo2xml right
<froud> you have no way to see if it was good
<froud> if you think it not needed, just cp the file
<froud> or output directly over the existing file
<froud> then ther eis no need for .new
<froud> and diff process
<enrico> but you do a patch with the untranslated one
<froud> the .new file should be a translated file
<froud> basically you want po2xml en-doc.xml nn-doc.po > nn-doc.xml
<froud> got to fetch my daughters brb.
<enrico> froud: committed fixed script
<froud-away> does it work for you
<froud-away> I will test it when I get back
<enrico> works for me
<enrico> ok, see you later
<claude> seb128: the quickguide in French is quite ready
<seb128> can you get it for the SVN ?
<claude> maybe tonight ??
<seb128> when you feel that's ready
<seb128> I'm quite busy, I've not read all the mails about it
<claude> cmmh, can you wait until tonight before packaging ? 
<claude> it would be great that quickguide-fr being into Hoary at release time
<seb128> I'll package it tomorrow if enrico has not do that before
<claude> k
<enrico> seb128: I'm trying to figure out how it works
<enrico> we don't have translated OMF files, either :(
* claude knows what it 'll do tonight :)
<seb128> enrico: are OMF useful ?
<enrico> How do we get those?
<seb128> I don't have know what does the OMF files do
<enrico> seb128: if you want to find the thing in yelp, yes
<seb128> s/have/even/
<seb128> oh
<seb128> right
<enrico> they're metadata used to register the documentation in scrollkeeper
<seb128> copying the xml to the right place works to open from the menu though
<seb128> no need of the OMF files
<enrico> ok, good
<enrico> very good
<enrico> so, what's the right place?
<seb128> and I guess that people will use the "About Ubuntu" from the menu
<seb128> /usr/share/gnome/help/about-ubuntu/nn/about-ubuntu.xml
<seb128> for the "nn" translation 
<seb128> and some for the other documents
<seb128> C/file.xml for english, nn/file.xml for the translations
<claude> the problem may be common files
<seb128> like ?
<claude> do they need to be duplicated for each translation ?
<claude> like images (not translated for now
<seb128> yep
<enrico> claude: yes, I'm doing quite a symlink farm
<claude> ok, good
<claude> some files will need symlinks other won't...
<claude> will probably chnage over time
<claude> for now, files in common are not translated
<claude> but they should be
<claude> if i understand, translated files from ubuntu-docs won't be in lang-packs, right ?
<enrico> claude: no idea
<froud> hi
<enrico> froud: hi
<enrico> froud: check the new script
<froud> I will 
<enrico> note that the new Tagalog translations create a broken xml file
<enrico> .tl
<claude> should check the po file with msgfmt
<froud> enrico: huh
<claude> msgfmt -vc file.po
<froud> yes
<froud> yes
<froud> enrico: it was not in my script
<enrico> what does that do?
<froud> checks the integrity of the po
<claude> but that's not alwas sufficient
<froud> sometimes they get wacked
<claude> i had some problems with quickguide-fr that i needed to fix by hand
<claude> msgfmt will not check that xml tags inside msgstrings are correct
<froud> enrico: do we still need the PATH=${PATH}:/opt/kde3/bin/
<enrico> froud: no, it's not needed when the poxml file is installed
<enrico> seb128: please checkout and build the package
<froud> enrico: but now it will update all nn files even if they did not need updating
<seb128> enrico: k
<froud> enrico: hence we have commits that are not needed
<froud> enrico: did somebody to the de translation yet
<froud> I sill dont have it in my mail
<froud> seb128: should wait until we have the de
<enrico> froud: not really, because if the contents of a file didn't change, then svn doesn't see the file as modified
<enrico> seb128: try installing the package.  I have the document in what seems to be the right place, but my italian yelp shows the document in english
<froud> svn status still shows M
<seb128> how do you open it ?
<froud> enrico: better not to copy over
<enrico> seb128: yelp, then I follow the menus
<froud> better to copy over only if changes
<enrico> seb128: how do you open it?
<seb128> panel, about ubuntu
<enrico> froud: here it shows M only for the ones that changed (that is, only Tagalog)
<enrico> seb128: I don't run Hoary: what does that link?
<froud> opens yelp about-ubuntu.xml
<seb128> yelp ghelp:about-ubuntu
<froud> Looks in gnome scrollkeeper extensions
<froud> for about-ubuntu
<enrico> it's in English here
<seb128> here too
<enrico> maybe I did something wrong with the packaging
<froud> which is registere in scrollkeeper using omf
<enrico> please tell me
<seb128> no no
<seb128> /usr/share/gnome/help/about-ubuntu/ca/about-ubuntu-ca.xml
<seb128> /usr/share/gnome/help/about-ubuntu/fr
<seb128> /usr/share/gnome/help/about-ubuntu/fr/about-ubuntu-fr.xml
<seb128> 
<seb128> that's wrong
<seb128> nn/about-ubuntu.xml
<seb128> no "-nn" for the name
<seb128> that
<seb128> ups
<froud> seb128: I can tell you that wont work
<enrico> aaaah! Ok
<seb128> froud: works for me ...
<froud> the file opens
<enrico> let's see now...
<seb128> enrico: sudo cp /usr/share/gnome/help/about-ubuntu/it/about-ubuntu-it.xml /usr/share/gnome/help/about-ubuntu/it/about-ubuntu.xml
<seb128> should work
<froud> how doe sit resilv ethe
<froud> <!ENTITY % xinclude SYSTEM "../libs/xinclude.mod">
<froud> %xinclude;
<froud> <!ENTITY % globalent SYSTEM "../libs/global.ent">
<froud> %globalent;
<seb128> I don't even what that is
<seb128> I just know that copying the translation xml to the right place works
<claude> froud: these files have to be duplicated or symlinked
<froud> seb128: do you see values for Benvinguts a Ubuntu Linux &distro-rev;: Versi &distro-version;
<enrico> seb128: nicely Ttalian now
<enrico> committing...
<seb128> froud: right, that works fine
<enrico> committed
<enrico> try that out (note the package version has changed)
<froud> enrico: svn I cleaned make-po
<froud> enrico: we need to handle invalid po files
<froud> enrico: when you have the nn docs in nn/ do all the entities expand correctly
<seb128> enrico: great, works fine :)
<enrico> froud: I don't konw about the entities
<enrico> however, it's easy for you to check out
<enrico> froud: as root, do dpkg-reconfigure locales   and add a locale of your choice
<enrico> froud: then, do: LANG=<locale of your choice> yelp ghelp:about-ubuntu
<enrico> If we're all happy, I intend to upload this
<enrico> so, in case I won't be online in the next days, at least something goes in
<enrico> And if something happens (like new translations come it), someone else can update the things if I'm offline
<claude> quickguide-fr will come tonight
<enrico> uploaded.  Better than before, hopefully will get even better
<mdke> releasenotes-it coming tonight as well
<enrico> wow!
<mdke> claude, can't believe you've done quickguide, that is an immense achievement
<claude> i didn't translate myself, work from ubuntu-fr
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> cool
<claude> great guys :)
<mdke> how did you distribute the work?
<claude> nothing special, i merged different files by sdiff
<claude> but i hope rosetta will help us for this
<mdke> cool, so different people worked on different sections?
<claude> yes
<mdke> great
<mdke> bien
<claude> :)
<froud> enrico: sorry reporter on the telephone
<froud> enrico if you see the entities then it must work
<froud> in about ubuntu you should see the revision number and the words Hoary Hedgehog in the first heading
<enrico> they work!
<enrico> froud: they work!
<mdke> :))
<froud> cool
<froud> ok now about make-po
<froud> seems to work well
<froud> but 
<froud> it would be better to overwrite only in cases where the file needs updating
<froud> also we should cleanup the unused files
<froud> Hmm german entities dont validate
<enrico> oh, yes.  the cleanup is easy
<mdke> damn
<froud> I will have to incorporate German ents
<mdke> do you want me to ping the translator?
<mdke> (s)
<froud> no
<froud> no need
<mdke> k
<froud> enrico: we need to add a method to test for lang="nn" in make-po
<froud> for example a german book should have <book lang="de">
<froud> for example a french book should have <book lang="fr">
<froud> etc
<froud> we will also have to script for german docs some conditions
<enrico> froud: then you want to switch to perl (or python) and spend a bit more time on it
<froud> enrico: looks like we may need to but I dont perl or python
<froud> I will try it with shell
<froud> and sed
<froud> it is mostly replacing entities like &auml; with the charcater number
<froud> unicode number
<froud> and I will do the testing for the lang
<froud> Hmm this will be a cool script when it is done
<froud> enrico: will you change so we only copy over files that have modifications
<enrico> why not doing it with XSLT?
<enrico> froud: is that needed now?
<enrico> I'm back on doing something else
<froud> not immediately
<froud> I will check it
<enrico> ok
<enrico> ping me
<froud> and see what I can do
<froud> ok
<enrico> if you don't see that coming
<froud> perhaps I can do the replacements with xslt
<froud> enrico: btw both those scripts are my first attempt at writing shell scripts
<froud> not bad even if I say so myself
<froud> Other scripts I have written have not been that comples
<froud> complex
<froud> lets see if carlos is there
<froud> carlos: oing
<enrico> froud: first attempo?  not bad , not bad at all!!
<claude> bbl
<carlos> froud: pong
<froud> carlos: hi
<froud> we finally meet'
<carlos> but I'm a bit busy, so perhaps I will take sometime to answer
<froud> hectic day
<froud> we need to find a way to interact with Rosetta team
<froud> can you help
<froud> we = Ubuntu Doc Team
<froud> perhaps we can automate or semi automate a process between the teams
<froud> our process is as follows
<froud> 1. we write doc.xml in en
<froud> 2. we create doc.pot
<froud> 3 we send doc.pot to i18n
<froud> 4 we get back doc-nn.po
<carlos> The new procedure should be:
<carlos> 1. you write doc.xml in en
<carlos> 2. you create doc.pot
<froud> 5 we create doc-nn.xml
<carlos> 3. you upload the .pot into Rosetta directly (not yet possible, will try to manage it this week)
<carlos> 4. Translators update the translations using Rosetta
<carlos> 5.- You get all translations from Rosetta
<carlos> 6. you create doc-nn.xml from Rosetta's .po files
<froud> great
<froud> ok
<froud> now
<carlos> for that, I need an Ubuntu doc team created in launchpad
<froud> when we make updates in doc.xml we merge changes into doc.po
<carlos> with all people that should be able to upload .pot files into Rosetta as a member
<froud> Ok
<carlos> I can create the team
<froud> Ok
<carlos> but you should decide who is able to be a member
<froud> i c
<froud> can we not just script this 
<froud> I mean if we have an update it will automatically upload
<carlos> yeah, is another option
<froud> ok hold with me on this
<carlos> something what we have atm with application translation
<froud> when we make a changes in doc.xml
<froud> we update our pot
<froud> somehow it gets to rosetta
<froud> but this is not good
<froud> cause the required will may only be 1%
<froud> and yet translators get all english in the pot
<froud> once we have a po is it not better to merge changes into the po and send that
<carlos> don't understand you..
<carlos> why is not good?
<carlos> if you upload a new .pot file
<froud> On first time we send pot. Good
<carlos> a translator will get the merge for free by Rosetta
<froud> on second time send updated pot
<froud> OK
<mdke> it might be cool to find a way to inform translators of an updated pot
<carlos> the strings that were not changed will be still there with any translation they had already
<froud> so we get back a PO and the translator only need focus on doing the changes :-)
<carlos> and the new ones will appear as untranslated
* froud does not know how rosetta works
<carlos> froud: well, the statistics tell you if there are new translations to do
<mdke> oh
<froud> Ok so we fire only pot files
<mdke> cool
<carlos> and in the future I suppose we could add a kind of email notification or so
<froud> how do we get them back
<mdke> manually
<mdke> would be doable
* froud is loking for fire and forget here
<mdke> if you can't find a way to automate it, I am happy to volunteer for that job
<mdke> just lemme know
<froud> mdke: you should be added to the group in rosetta
<froud> as with claude and enrico
<mdke> ok
<carlos> atm, manually
<froud> carlos explain how to autoupload
<carlos> (to get the translations back)
<carlos> the autoupload:
<froud> carlos: ok
<mdke> afk
<carlos> the easier way is create a debian source package that has the pot and po files
<carlos> and upload it into hoary
<carlos> that's all
<carlos> Rosetta will handle it as a normal software upload
<carlos> like pmount, gnome, etc...
<froud> OK and the other way
<carlos> the other option is to setup an alternative way to do the import from a url location you tell me and using a set of files I will define for you
<carlos> but I'm not happy with this way 
<froud> all of our stuff is in svn under https
<carlos> because only for two packages, having another importing running is a waste of resources
<froud> carlos we have only two docs at the moment
<carlos> also it's a bit risky because autoimporting things from nontrusted machines...
<froud> but we will have many more
<froud> canonical machine
<carlos> froud: the svn integration at the moment, is imposible
<froud> https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/trunk
<carlos> froud: perhaps later, but not  *now*
<froud> Ok so we will make packages
<carlos> froud: I need a tarball like the one you gave me last week
<froud> like what Thom gave you
<carlos> you == ubuntu doc team :-)
<froud> ok enrico will explain
<froud> OK, so in order to upload we must finish all docs
<carlos> froud: does anyone from the Ubuntu doc team have access to people.ubuntu.com?
<froud> may be enrico
<froud> otherwise mako helps us
<froud> why?
<carlos> froud: because there is another way to integrate the .pot files without using Ubuntu's archive
<carlos> but implies direct access to that machine
<froud> I see, explain
<carlos> nothing to explain, you need a shell account to do it :-)
<carlos> that's all
<carlos> froud: I need to check something with Mark and Daf 
<froud> I understand
<carlos> can we talk about this tomorrow?
<froud> yes
<carlos> perhaps we could avoid the shell account
<froud> ok
<carlos> but need to check before with them
<froud> we need to take into consideration that we have mutiple books
<carlos> oh, another option is use a shell script that I did some months ago to do the web submit 
<froud> send the script to sean@inwords.co.za
<carlos> so you do the upload but with that script (using curl)
<carlos> froud: the script does not works as it's at the moment, it's just a submit request over https
<carlos> and the url changed a bit since I did it
<froud> OK, but I dont want just anyone to run that
<carlos> well, you need your launchpad's user+password
<froud> Ok so we need to make a package for each document
<carlos> so you should be allowed to do that from a web browser
<carlos> the script does not lets you do antyhing you are not allowed to do from firefox
<froud> ok
<froud> and the package must contain all docs or each package must contain a doc
<carlos> for the script you only need the .pot file and the url where it should be submitted
<carlos> for the other way I was explaining you
<carlos> a package can hold more than one .pot file
<froud> the script sounds perfect
<carlos> the package must be the ubuntu source package that will hold the documentation
<carlos> anything else? I need to leave in 5 minutes
<froud> carlos the script sounds good cause we can have many pot files in the large documents
<carlos> hmm
<froud> for example when we use mutiple files to assemble a document
<carlos> the first upload cannot be done over the web
<froud> each file holds a chapter
<carlos> only updates
<mdke> anyway we have plenty of time to work this out right?
<mdke> we're talking post hoary?
<carlos> oh, sure
<froud> OK cool
<carlos> I suppose some of you will come to .au, right?
<mdke> rosetta will be fixed by then
<froud> mdke: yeah but I must to structure and ensure that this stuff is factored in
<mdke> carlos, none of us are coming
<carlos> we could talk about this there
<carlos> none?
<carlos> hmmm
<carlos> ok
<mdke> maybe enrico
<froud> Ok carlos thanks fo ryour time. c ya
<carlos> then, if you could send to rosetta@ubuntu.com a small document about all the requirements you have and what you miss in Rosetta, we could look into it on .au
<mdke> heh
<carlos> that way we know exactly your needs and take them into account while preparing the changes/additions for bendy
<mdke> whats bendy?
<froud> ok
<carlos> hmm, wrong name?
<carlos> hoary + 1 
<mdke> o i c
<mdke> cool
<carlos> ok, wrong name 
<carlos> breezy
<carlos> :-P
<carlos> ok, see you later!
<mdke> it'll be ok
<jjesse> l
<mdke> l
<jjesse> grin typo :)
<froud> mdke: we have two untranslated messages in de
<mdke> froud, lol
<mdke> froud, Rosetta said it was 106% complete
<froud> mdke: 
<froud> msgfmt: releasenotes/release-notes-de.po: warning: PO file header fuzzy
<froud>                                           warning: older versions of msgfmt will give an error on this
<froud> 125 translated messages, 2 untranslated messages.
<mdke> weird
<mdke> lemme look
<mdke> damn yeah
<mdke> i'll look into it
<froud> thanks
<mdke> seems to be a problem
<froud> Burgundavia: we have sorted make-po
<mdke> froud, rosetta made 3 bad tokens
<mdke> inserting weird slashes and stuff
<froud> yes
<mdke> lemme check the rest and i'll re-email
<mdke> shit
<froud> mdke: do svn up first I just did a bunch of stuff
<mdke> froud, to the po?
<froud> sometimes was needed in the po
<froud> but do svn up and you will have waht I fixed
<mdke> ok
<mdke> seems that rosetta doesn't handle our <tags> and stuff
<froud> mdke: we also have a problem with the header
<mdke> *sighs*
<froud> I have a bout three forms
* mdke slaps Rosetta
<froud> mdke: checkout the de header it is what we want ideally
<mdke> right
<mdke> so the other headers were bad too?
<froud> not completely
<froud> just the de header was the best
<mdke> the headers are defined by the editing program I guess
<froud> perhaps cause it was created using KBabel :-)
<mdke> nah rosetta
* mdke winces
<froud> yes unless the autor did it in the src
<froud> without an editor
<mdke> i'm editing it using poedit so better recheck the header after
<froud> it is not a major problem but would be nice to have consistant
<froud> hello claude
<claude> hi all
<mdke> froud, how did you clean up the release-notes-de.po?
<mdke> those translations were present in the po i emailed you
<claude> just finished the quickguide-fr !!
* mdke bows to claude
<froud> mdke: :-)
<claude> froud: i send it just to you
<froud> by hand
<froud> wow claude 
<froud> that is soo cool
<mdke> froud, i have a copy of the one I downloaded from rosetta, so I'll restore and email
<froud> why the one in svn is no good?
<mdke> the two missing messages were present in the one i downloaded, i'll copy them into the one from svn
<froud> claude: did you see the make-pot and make-po scripts
<froud> ok
<froud> Hmm I did not edit out any messages
<mdke> froud, maybe my bad
<mdke> maybe they have edited it since I downloaded
<mdke> yeah that must be it
<mdke> or rosetta has been improved or something
<mdke> god knows
<froud> yeah this is why we need email to the list to say it has changed
<mdke> i mean the system
<claude> froud: had no time til now :-P
<froud> without this we will not keep track
<froud> claude:  so this was you in slow motion :-) I would love to see you in normal mode
<claude> lol
<froud> claude: who did you mail to me or the list?
<claude> froud: to you because i think it's too big for mailing on a list 
<froud> claude: btw enrico sorted out that the translation will get into the users desktops
<froud> ok has not arrived yet
<mdke> froud, so you edited all the <ulink url...> stuff by hand?
<froud> mdke: yes the gnome one
<claude> i read your fruitful discussion today
<froud> ok right
<mdke> froud, there are more
<froud> seems we will lick this i18n thing oneday
<froud> mdke: could be
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> i see some
<mdke> damn
<mdke> another thing to blame on rosetta :)
<mdke> unless...
<mdke> you didn't run any scripts on it did you?
<froud> claude: do know if the menus are defined in a single place
<froud> mdke: no why?
<mdke> froud, there are lots of slashes inserted in some of the messages
<claude> froud: don't undestrand what you mean
<froud> I wonder if there is a single file defining all desktop menus so I can create the xmls from that
<froud> I would need to do it for gnome and kde
<mdke> froud, ok we need to check the xml for this. I've left some of the slashes in as they look intentional
<froud> I would not know. It's up to you
<froud> \ is used normally to escape
<mdke> np
<froud> for example \&
<froud> means treat & as literal
<mdke> seems to appear where there are "
<mdke> for example in the ulink bits, there are \\\ in the german bit, and \ in the english bit
<mdke> anyway i've taken those out
<mdke> sent
<mdke> if you build an xml and commit, i'll check
<froud> ok
<mdke> ping me when done
<mdke> no rush
<claude> froud: are you talking about common/menus/*.xml ?
<froud> yes I can build those files from changes in the menu
<claude> the problem is that i'm still in Warty
<claude> not sure about the menu names in Hoary
<claude> :(
<froud> claude: Hmm why dont you update
<claude> i will, i will...
<claude> but i don't like to be beta-tester, normally
<claude> but for the sake of the Docteam ... :)
<froud> mdke: all better
<froud> msgfmt: aboutubuntu/about-ubuntu-de.po: warning: PO file header fuzzy
<froud>                                         warning: older versions of msgfmt will give an error on this
<froud> 24 translated messages.
<mdke> what the hell is dis?
<froud> mdke: svn up
<mdke> is that message bad?
<claude> you just need to strip the word fuzzy in the file
<froud> no its not
<claude> it means that the file has been generated automatically
<mdke> right
<froud> claude: quick guide fr is now in svn
<claude> i saw
<claude> great !
<claude> i think it's too late for files in common
<froud> yeah
<froud> btw to make the xml all you need to do is make po
<mdke> ok the slashes are not a problem
<mdke> good
<froud> and it will find all po files and create xml files if there are differences
<mdke> have checked the xml and everything is cool for release-notes-de
<froud> mdke: thanks sude
<claude> i'm sorry that our files couldn't be in language packs
<froud> s/s/d
<froud> Oh well
<claude> that means that we won't be able to make update before Hoary+1
<claude> i think
<mdke> now for getting translated screenshots into hoary
<froud> Yes
<froud> Ha ha ha
<mdke> *coughs* j/k
<froud> Hey I must go. Thanks for your help
<mdke> k
<claude> bye
<froud> enough for night, no?
<mdke> bye froud
<mdke> italian releasenotes will be with you v soon
<froud> get them in the morning ;-)
<mdke> yep
<mdke> np
#ubuntu-doc 2005-04-16
<jsgotangco> greetings
<froud> African Greetings
<jsgotangco> hi froud
<froud> js morning
<froud> how r you today?
<jsgotangco> im doing well im checking out the svn now for changes
<jsgotangco> release-notes-tl.xml is not wellformed i am informedby yelp
<froud> there are problems with the po file see th emailing list
<jsgotangco> ok hold on
<jsgotangco> what is the fuzzy header?
<froud> some editors use fuzy logic to make the file header #, fuzzy
<froud> this can be stripped.
<jsgotangco> does a po file affect how well formed an xml becomes or does the tool really make bad xml?
<froud> yes, since we make the nn-xml from the nn-po
<froud> You are missing a url attribute on one of the ulinks
<jsgotangco> im trying to validate the xml and fix it instead of fixing the po since i find this easier
<froud> jsgotangco: not good
<froud> if it does not get fixed in th epo then the xml will always be remade invalid
<jsgotangco> ok so i go back to the po then
<froud> jsgotangco: hint look at line 104 of the po
<froud> then see line 105:136
<froud> oops
<froud> then see line 105:320
<jsgotangco> fixed that
<jsgotangco> already
<jsgotangco> what should i get to make this po an xml and validate it myself?
<froud> in trunk/ do make po
<froud> do you have poxml installed
<jsgotangco> no i dont think so
<froud> do which xml2pot
<froud> what do you get
<jsgotangco> on pwd? i get nothing
<jsgotangco> ok installed poxml
<froud> ok do sudo apt-get install poxml
<jsgotangco> done
<froud> you should alsready have msgfmt installed
<froud> part of gettext
<froud> in trunk/ do make po
<jsgotangco> ahhh i see that
<jsgotangco> ok fuzzy is removed but i need to know where the header fields with initial default values
<froud> "Last-Translator: FULL NAME <EMAIL@ADDRESS>\n"
<jsgotangco> oh i edit that as well?
<froud> ep
<jsgotangco> wee ok i get it now
<froud> :-)
<jsgotangco> does the make po command check for possible errors as well for the conversion to xml?
<froud> it checks th epo file with msgfmt
<froud> this only checks the integrity of the po not the xml elements
<froud> if the po is ok then it converts to xml
<jsgotangco> ok ill submit the po again to re commit
<froud> of course it first checks the old copy of the xml against the new copy before patching
<froud> just make a patch
<jsgotangco> oh you can patch po as well?
<froud> any text file can be patched
<jsgotangco> ooohhhh
<froud> Burgundavia: morn
<Burgundavia> salut
<jsgotangco> hi
<froud> jsgotangco: there is a problem applying your patch
<froud> can your revert you tl.xml
<froud> svn revert release-notes-tl.xml
<froud> then create the patch just on your po file
<froud> svn diff release-notes-tl.po > release-notes-tl.po.diff
<froud> and send it again. Thanks
<jsgotangco> ok wait i was not looking
<froud> no rush, no worries, no stress
<Kinnison> Morning
<froud> morn
<Burgundavia> salut Kinnison 
<Kinnison> ca va?
<Burgundavia> life goes on
<Burgundavia> had a wedding today in my DnD game
<Burgundavia> almost killed us
<Kinnison> Heh
<jsgotangco> lol
<Kinnison> Last thing that almost killed us in role-play was someone using an ancient spell to addict people to alcohol during the period of prohibition in rhode island
<Burgundavia> now that is funny
<Burgundavia> damn gnomebaker
<Burgundavia> taking 40 minutes to copy a cd
<jsgotangco> i never got into role play
<jsgotangco> it wasnt that popular in asian countries
<jsgotangco> its mostly video games
<jsgotangco> hehe
<EricNeon> hi~
<froud> hi
<EricNeon> can I use plone at ubuntu-zh.org?
<EricNeon> now ,we use moin Wiki
<froud> Yes. Just post to ubuntu-doc@lists.ubuntu.com that this is what you want
<EricNeon> oh,thank you !
<claude> hi, i'm now in hoary !
<EricNeon> hoho
<claude> just one problem left with screen resolution :(
<claude> with Warty, i was in 1600x1200
<Burgundavia> ok
<Burgundavia> and now?
<claude> now only 1280x1024
<claude> when i switch to 1600
<claude> the desktop is larger than the screen
<Burgundavia> ok
<claude> not very practical :)
<Burgundavia> what driver did you use on warty
<EricNeon> I'm in hoary since a month ago~
<claude> i810 (no ATI nor nvidia)
<Burgundavia> ok
<Burgundavia> did you do any custom tweaks to either configuration file?
<claude> no, except maybe sync rates
<mdke> froud, you here?
<froud> uh huh
<froud> claude: well-done
<mdke> just seen the mails, are the po files all ok now or do they still need checking?
<mdke> hi froud claude 
<jsgotangco> they need some minor revisions
<mdke> hi jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> hi
<froud> I think I fix de
<froud> svn up then with pwd trunk/ do make po
<claude> i can now check if translated docs show under my desktop
<claude> it's ok for about-ubuntu
<mdke> would it be possible for you guys to deal with it today, i really need to focus on my exam
<claude> but when i call help summary
<claude> the english ones are showing
<claude> :(
<jsgotangco> at revision 841
<mdke> froud, jsgotangco?
* froud finishes updating https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocteamStepByStepl18n
<jsgotangco> hmmm ok ill try to fix some today they arenot that complicated anyway
<mdke> jsgotangco, thanks i appreciate it
* froud thanks jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> but i still think the the guys who did the translation should do it *grin*
<mdke> btw froud i don't think dpkg-reconfigure locales is the correct way to change language now in hoary
<froud> mdke: ask claude 
<mdke> afaik, its just selected on gdm login
<claude> mdke: enrico told us that yesterday
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> i seem to remember it being in the releasenotes ;)
<mdke> anyway, as long as it works
<mdke> np
<claude> dpkg-reconfigure lcoales is only to create locales
<claude> it's not meant to change current locale
<mdke> yeah
<claude> we do so in terminal with LANG=
<claude> this way, we don't have to relogin to test languages
<mdke> but gnome takes the locale from the environment afaik
<froud> jsgotangco: check tl see if it is ok I get two rejections on th epatch
<mdke> i gtg
<mdke> see ya later
<claude> the LANG= directive should take precedence, just for the current terminal session
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> if you wanna change it for gnome you have to logout, change the environment and log in
<mdke> i think
<mdke> but anyway, np
<mdke> cya later
<jsgotangco> when i do make po i dont get any issues anymore
<froud> jsgotangco: OK so may I suggest that before doing any work on files it is good practice always to do svn up
<froud> before making a patch also do svn up
<froud> then do svn status
<froud> then make your patch
<jsgotangco> i did that
<froud> the rejects were because of changes in the repos that were not in your wc
<jsgotangco> ok ill keep that in mind
<froud> no worries
<froud> this is how we all learn
<froud> ;-)
<froud> Thanks for your work
<jsgotangco> froud: would it be ok to make a super patch for all the edits i did on the other po i fixed just now?
<jsgotangco> or should i make patches per localization
<froud> Best is to work small and patch
<froud> make it per caus ethen it is easier to role back
<jsgotangco> ok ill send the patches in a few minutes
<froud> jsgotangco: svn up :-)
<jsgotangco> ok im sending the patches now for the other languages
<claude> the more important thing to verify before Hoary is that translated files appear in yelp summary
<claude> that doesn't work now for me (ubuntu-docs 0.5-1)
<jsgotangco> i think ubuntu-doc is not yet updated
<claude> k
<jsgotangco> even my copy still has typo errors
<froud> jsgotangco: how do you make your diff
<jsgotangco> svn diff filename-nn.po > filename-nn.diff
<froud> why do I keep getting rejections on your patches
<jsgotangco> hmm
<jsgotangco> all the patches are rejected?
<jsgotangco> maybe i should refresh my wc?
<froud> sean@sean:~/projects/ubuntu/trunk/aboutubuntu> patch -p0 about-ubuntu-pt.xml about-ubuntu-pt.diff
<jsgotangco> and get them from scratch again?
<froud> patching file about-ubuntu-pt.xml
<froud> Hunk #1 FAILED at 2.
<froud> 1 out of 1 hunk FAILED -- saving rejects to file about-ubuntu-pt.xml.rej
<froud> sean@sean:~/projects/ubuntu/trunk/aboutubuntu> patch -p0 about-ubuntu-de.xml about-ubuntu-de.diff
<froud> patching file about-ubuntu-de.xml
<froud> Hunk #1 FAILED at 3.
<froud> 1 out of 1 hunk FAILED -- saving rejects to file about-ubuntu-de.xml.rej
<froud> sean@sean:~/projects/ubuntu/trunk/aboutubuntu>       
<jsgotangco> methinks i should create a new trunk
<froud> jsgotangco: just send me your po files
<froud> claude: Ialso cant patch from your diff.... wtf
<froud> is there something about po files that they cannot be patched
<froud> claude: just send me the po file
<froud> jsgotangco: you too
<froud> thanks
<jsgotangco> ok
<claude> froud: maybe you should be at trunk to patch
<claude> not in the sub-folders
<claude> the diff includes relative path to files
<froud> claude: nope that is not it
<froud> patch -p0 quickguide/quick-guide-fr.xml quickguide/quick-guide-fr-po.diff
<froud> patching file quickguide/quick-guide-fr.xml
<froud> Hunk #1 FAILED at 1536.
<froud> Hunk #2 FAILED at 2376.
<froud> 2 out of 2 hunks FAILED -- saving rejects to file quickguide/quick-guide-fr.xml.rej
<jsgotangco> hmm i just made a new trunk *grin* ill just fix the pos again
<claude> strange, for me the patch applies ok
<froud> from trunk/ or relative to
<claude> from trunk
<claude> maybe the .diff should be at trunk root ?
<froud> I tried that
<claude> patch -p0 quickguide/quick-guide-fr.po quick-guide-fr-po.diff
<claude> ohhh
<claude> sorry, the patch was for xml :-P
<froud> Oh oh hold may be your right
<froud> huh
<claude> no, no
<claude> blgraskdkhjkyxcjhk
<claude> the patch was for po, right
<claude> and you did for xml
<froud> Hmm tired
<claude> he, he
* claude thinks Froud should listen to his wife :)
<froud> you got me with the -po.diff instead of .po.diff
<jsgotangco> ok po files sent i didnt fix fr claude already covered for that
<jsgotangco> oh it was quickguide-fr
<froud> jsgotangco: thanks will check this now
<froud> claude: patch applied
<claude> thx :)
<jsgotangco> claude: maybe you can also fix release-notes-fr.po *wink*
<claude> jsgotangco: k, i missed that :(
<jsgotangco> froud: how come some of the xml files still dont open correctly with yelp?
<froud> nearly there
<froud> sean@sean:~/projects/ubuntu/trunk> make po
<froud> Rebuilding docbook xml files from .po files
<froud> ./make-po
<froud> Processing modules: aboutubuntu releasenotes quickguide
<froud> 24 translated messages.
<froud> 24 translated messages.
<froud> 24 translated messages.
<froud> 24 translated messages.
<froud> 24 translated messages.
<froud> 24 translated messages.
<froud> 24 translated messages.
<froud> 127 translated messages.
<froud> 127 translated messages.
<froud> msgfmt: releasenotes/release-notes-fr.po: some header fields still have the initial default value
<froud> msgfmt: releasenotes/release-notes-fr.po: warning: PO file header fuzzy
<froud>                                           warning: older versions of msgfmt will give an error on this
<froud> msgfmt: found 1 fatal error
<froud> 124 translated messages.
<froud> 127 translated messages.
<froud> 126 translated messages.
<froud> 127 translated messages.
<froud> 533 translated messages, 1 fuzzy translation.
<froud> patching file quickguide/quick-guide-fr.xml
<froud> jsgotangco: must validate them
<froud> if they are not valid then the po has problems
<jsgotangco> but i just did an svn up and i only got the po files i fixed
<jsgotangco> i thought the po files upon commit generate a new xml file
<froud> yes but that does not mean there are no XML errors in th epo
<froud> the check does not check the markup of xml
<froud> which files have problems
<jsgotangco> release-notes-pt.xml
<jsgotangco> release-notes-tl.xml
<froud> sean@sean:~/projects/ubuntu/trunk> ./validate.sh releasenotes/release-notes-pt.xml
<froud> releasenotes/release-notes-pt.xml:208: parser error : EntityRef: expecting ';'
<froud> es instalarem dispositivos sem necessidade de reinicializar (&quot;hot-swap&quot
<froud>                                                                                ^
<froud> next file
<froud> sean@sean:~/projects/ubuntu/trunk> ./validate.sh releasenotes/release-notes-tl.xml
<froud> releasenotes/release-notes-tl.xml:136: parser error : error parsing attribute name
<froud> ary NVidia drivers. Para sa karagdagang impormasyon,tignan ang website ng <ulink
<froud>                                                                                ^
<froud> releasenotes/release-notes-tl.xml:136: parser error : attributes construct error
<froud> ary NVidia drivers. Para sa karagdagang impormasyon,tignan ang website ng <ulink
<claude> froud; stop flooding us :-O
<claude> lol
<froud> ok
<claude> just sent the patch for release-notes-fr
<froud> jsgotangco: thanks
<froud> claude: thanks
<froud> jsgotangco: you can use .validate.sh filename
<froud> jsgotangco: you can use ./validate.sh filename
<froud> to check valid or not on xml files
<jsgotangco> ok im aware of that but i always thought a new commited po will make a new xml file on svn
<froud> you must have xsltproc installed and xmllint
<froud> it did
<froud> see commit list
<froud> I think I am gonna ask all authors not to use &quot;
<jsgotangco> but if the xml is wrong and the make po does not show any issues, i end up editing the xml which you didnt recommend
<froud> I think it is better we do <quote></quote>
<froud> th eproblem is in the message string
<froud> it contains xml
<froud> which has incorrect syntax
<claude> jsgotangco; you have to edit the po, do the xml conversion, check the result and return to po if problems
<froud> msgfmt does not check xml only the integrity of the po
<jsgotangco> ok so if i get it right, the flow should be, edit po, convert to xml, validate, if errors, fix po and convert again till the xml is correct?
<claude> that's my point of view
<froud> ok hold a sec
<froud> I will do a make po again
<froud> if there are changes it will show in svn
<froud> sean@sean:~/projects/ubuntu/trunk> make po
<froud> Rebuilding docbook xml files from .po files
<froud> ./make-po
<froud> Processing modules: aboutubuntu releasenotes quickguide
<froud> 24 translated messages.
<froud> 24 translated messages.
<froud> 24 translated messages.
<froud> 24 translated messages.
<froud> 24 translated messages.
<froud> 24 translated messages.
<froud> 24 translated messages.
<froud> 127 translated messages.
<froud> 127 translated messages.
<froud> 127 translated messages.
<froud> 124 translated messages.
<froud> 127 translated messages.
<froud> 126 translated messages.
<froud> 127 translated messages.
<froud> 533 translated messages, 1 fuzzy translation.
<jsgotangco> i get the same as well but the xml needs fixing
<claude> 127, 124, 126 ??
<froud> ok make po only updated one file the quick guide
<froud> all commits done
<froud> now all nn.xml must be validated
<froud> not valid then check for problem in po and fix
<claude> think that's our work, not translators
<froud> if valid no problem
* jsgotangco agrees as well
<froud> claude: yes
<froud> This is why before we send po files in future we must test them in wc
<froud> then do patch
<froud> we are learning
<froud> :-)
<froud> we muddle though
<jsgotangco> its a good experience aye
<froud> Ok dudes I must do work now
<claude> froud: could you validate with xmllint in make-po ?
<froud> I will monitor for messages and mail
<claude> k
<froud> claude: no
<froud> po not xml
<claude> yes, but you're making xml in make-po
<claude> i let you work, now
<claude> cya
<jsgotangco> good thing my time zone allows me to to work with you guys at this time
<froud-work> jsgotangco: where r you?
<froud-work> in Tonga
<jsgotangco> nooo
<jsgotangco> Philippines lol
<jsgotangco> +0800
<jsgotangco> ok im going home
<jsgotangco> bye bye
<mdke> yo
<froud-work> yo yo
<mdke> heh
<mdke> hi froud-work how goes it?
<froud-work> work work
<froud-work> goes well
<froud-work> how is yor studying
<mdke> good
<mdke> not too bad
<mdke> i might just about get there in time
<froud-work> oh good. well dont let us stop you dude
<mdke> heh
<froud-work> study is more important the FOSS
<mdke> nah
<mdke> its easy
<froud-work> until you dont know
<froud-work> then you come here
<mdke> i don't care about it too much, as long as i pass
<froud-work> he he
<mdke> no i mean the study is easy
<mdke> the FOSS is the hard part
<mdke> ;)
<froud-work> we still have a couple of xml files that dont avlidate cause of problems in th epo files
<froud-work> if you feel like doing something else
<mdke> do you know which ones?
<froud-work> just ./validate on each xml to find the problems
<froud-work> they should all be checked
<mdke> ok
<mdke> will have a look
<mdke> ones which don't work:
<mdke> about-ubuntu-de.xml
<mdke> release-notes-tl.xml
<mdke> release-notes-pt.xml
<mdke> ok that's it
<mdke> i'll try and see what I can fix
<froud-work> in de it is the entities change them to decimal as in http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocteamStepByStepl18n
<froud-work> for the others it is problems with the xml inside the po files
<mdke> kthx
<mdke> ok german one is done, sending replacement (sorry i haven't time to work out how to do diffs/patches
<froud-work> its fine
<mdke> sent
<mdke> ok sent a release-notes-pt.po too
<froud-work> de work
<mdke> oh good
<mdke> gtg
<mdke> see ya later
<froud> enrico: his can you do packaging for upload
<froud> enrico:  just one nn.xml is still not valid
<froud> the tl
<enrico> froud: you want me to svn up and repackage?
<froud> svn up and repackage. If you have a minute check tl po file
<froud> I am on a deadline so cant get  there
<froud> use ./validate.sh 
<froud> Uhh was it release notes or about?
<froud> it was release notes
<froud> enrico: I must go in a minute
<froud> I will be back much later
<froud> enrico: can you do the release-notes-tl.po ?
<froud> if you can then do make po to patch the tl.xml
<froud> and validate again until it is valid
<froud> enrico: the script make-po now patches only when there are differences
<froud> must go, c ya
<froud> one more thing http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocteamStepByStepl18n is now updated
<froud> if package is uploaded then Rosetta will find all pot changes
<froud> c ya
<froud> for real this time
<enrico> cool
<mvirkkil> Made some changes to http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/BreezyBadger
<enrico> back online
<claude> hi enrico
<claude> see you're working on packaging :)
<claude> did you fix the problem about translated docs not appearing in yelp summary ?
<enrico> claude: I think that to solve that, you need to create translated .omf files
<claude> for registration with scrollkeeper ?
<enrico> yes
<enrico> you can try to translate one into french, to see what happens
<claude> ok, i'll try
<enrico> then send it to me and I'll include it in the packaging
<mvirkkil> ZWiki's MoinMoin sucks.
<claude> enrico: do i have to make something with <relation seriesid...
<mvirkkil> It's not complete, it's very sensitive to spaces (though that's probably MoinMoin's fault) and the preview doesn't always mach the result when saved (even _after_ the page actually gets refreshed, which often takes more than a minute).
<enrico> i think no
<enrico> claude: let me look into it
<enrico> claude: don't modify it
<enrico> claude: it's used by scrollkeeper to track different versions of the same file
<enrico> so you want to keep it the same as the untranslated one
<claude> k
<enrico> froud-away: looks like Elmo's about to move to svk 1.1!
<enrico> froud-away: cool!
<claude> enrico: sent
<enrico> claude: cool!  Sent where?
<claude> to you
<seb128> hi
<seb128> claude: are you translating the .omf files ?
<claude> hello
<claude> i try...
<seb128> there is almost no change to do
<seb128> language code is fr
<seb128> fr/about-ubuntu.xml for the url
<claude> yes, i sent one file to enrico so that he can test
<seb128> and the description
<seb128> cool
<enrico> claude: trying
<enrico> claude: had to fix it (the location of the release notes has changed in my last package which I still haven't uploaded :)
<enrico> claude: that's not your fault 
<enrico> so much works pretty!
<claude> i'm sure you'll soon fix it :)
<enrico> I'll do the italian one; who asks the translators for the rest?
<claude> we should give precise indications about what to translate
<enrico> I committed the italian ones
<claude> <title>, <description>, and <type>?, url and language code ?
<enrico> I just did <description>, as in Italian "Release Notes" and "About Ubuntu" wouldn't really change
<enrico> well, <title> does change, actually
<enrico> <type>, I have no idea
<enrico> let's say just <title> and <description>
<enrico> if those get translated, I'd be very happy already
<enrico> Now, I'll make a release as things are now
<enrico> If new translations arrive, it's just a matter of dumping them into debian/ and rebuild the package
<claude> wait for my French omf...
<enrico> seb128: if I'm not online, can you do that?  (of course bumping the package version)
<seb128> hum
<seb128> doing what ? you are uploading a version with french/italian now ?
<seb128> just updating new omf files like for these ones ?
<claude> froud can do updating...
<claude> what he can't do is packaging
<seb128> I can do packaging :)
<enrico> seb128: that's the catch :)
<enrico> I won't have net access tonight
<enrico> debian/install already picks up about-ubuntu-*.omf
<enrico> so you just need to dump them there
<seb128> ok, nice
<enrico> claude: sent the new OMF?
<seb128> I can manage that
<claude> enrico: yes
<claude> I'll mail ubuntu-translators about omf strings
<mdke> hiya
<mdke> claude, ping
<enrico> claude: perfect!
<mdke> hi enrico
<enrico> mdke: hi!
<mdke> yo
<enrico> Ok, I'm releasing.  seb128 will take care of adding further OMFs if I'm not around
* mdke reads log
<mdke> ahhhhh
* claude needs some time to take care of family :)
<enrico> mdke: how come you're screaming?
<mdke> enrico, now that was a gentle exhale of understanding
<mdke> enrico, i just came in to ask about claude's email but now i've read the logs i understand
<enrico> ah :)
<enrico> zzip!  Uploaded
<mdke> you want me to forward that email to the individuals who did the original translations?
<enrico> mdke: yes, please do
<mdke> ok
<enrico> who's collecting the OMF files?  I won't be online for long
<mdke> i suggest claude or froud-away, they are the only ones who know what is going on ;)
<mdke> but you're the only one who can package right?
<seb128> I'll package
<mdke> :)
<mdke> i'll just say to forward translations to the docteam list then
<seb128> if you can get them commited to the SVN that's easy to update the package
<mdke> ok hopefully someone will be able to do this
<mdke> what files are they going in?
<seb128> ?
<mdke> (i missed your discussion don't forget0
<seb128> the .omf files need to be translated to have the translated version for yelp
<seb128> on the index
<mdke> right
<seb128> that's it
<seb128> imf translations
<seb128> s/imf/omf/
<mdke> ok
<mdke> separate files get created in debian/?
<mdke> like debian/about-ubuntu-fr.omf?
<mdke> ok see it
<seb128> right
<mdke> should be np
<seb128> right, that's only a title and a short description
<mdke> no idea who did xh
<mdke> but should be able to find all the others
<mdke> ok email sent
<mdke> back to work
* enrico disconnects
<enrico> well, I was disconnected even before (the cable unplugged)
<enrico> good luck with the release!
<enrico> (I hope to be online a bit tomorrow)
<mdke> whoa, is the release tomorrow?
<mdke> wb
<mdke> seb128, whats our deadline for those omf files? one response so far
<seb128> tomorrow
<mdke> seb128, kthx
<seb128> np
<mdke> froud-away, de and pt omf files to commit :)
#ubuntu-doc 2005-04-17
<jsgotangco> greetings
<Liz> hiya jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> waaa what a crazy day
<jsgotangco> for the doc team
<jsgotangco> hehe
<Liz> is it?..ik now theres been alot with the translations as well
<Liz> brb
<jsgotangco> hello Burgundavia
<Burgundavia> salut
<jsgotangco> js :
<froud> African Greetings
<jsgotangco> greets
<jsgotangco> err whats an omf file?
<froud> jsgotangco: its a file that acts as a catalog
<froud> when registered to scrollkeeper
<froud> it enables Yelp to automatically inlcude documents
<jsgotangco> ohh
<froud> he he ubuntu-devel is starting starting to catch fire
<jsgotangco> it is pretty active lately
<Burgundavia> hey froud. I emailed Thomas Black at TSF on March 25. I have not heard back from him. You mentioned that you might be able to speak with him. Is that still the case?
<Liz> bbl
* froud waits for Xhosa translation
<jsgotangco> you mean the whole thing for Xhosa?
<froud> no omf only
<froud> meetings c ya later
<jsgotangco> umm do i needto do an omf as well?
<froud> jsgotangco: what language did you do again?
<froud> tl
<froud> jsgotangco: yes it would be a good idea
<enrico> i'm online for 5 minutes
<enrico> everything ok?
<froud> enrico: I guess so, still no OMF for XH and TL
<froud> other than that I just got back from meetings
<froud> enrico: we should script make-po to create OMF files when a new document is added
<mdke> hi all
<mdke> how are we doing on the omf files?
<froud> just missing xh and tl
* mdke kicks jsgotangco 
<mdke> :p
<mdke> hi froud 
* froud nods
<jsgotangco> waa
<jsgotangco> err
<jsgotangco> how?
<EricNeon> bye
<mdke> heh
<mdke> jsgotangco, yo
<jsgotangco> waaa 2 omfs?
<jsgotangco> @%#$%
<jsgotangco> hold on let met study how to do it
<mdke> jsgotangco, hold on
<mdke> jsgotangco, nothing needs to be learnt
<mdke> just check the mailing list, and translate those 4 phrases
<jsgotangco> wait let me check my archives
<mdke> jsgotangco, then once you've done that, svn up, open one of the omf files from the debian folder, change the phrases and the country codes, and you're done
<jsgotangco> ok hold on i thought it was big
<mdke> nah
<mdke> easy as pie
<jsgotangco> umm there's no english omf file?
<mdke> no
<mdke> that's the -C one
<mdke> just use an existing country one so you see what you need to change
<enrico> froud: I wouldn't automate OMF-making: that's so simple anyway
<jsgotangco> ok ill just guess what these things mean
<enrico> it happens so rarely that it's probably not worth automating
<jsgotangco> and just send the omf
<mdke> jsgotangco, good man
<enrico> So, more OMFs came in?
<enrico> How many still missing?
<jsgotangco> ok just give me 5 mins
<mdke> enrico, i just sent ca, tl is on its way
<enrico> wow
<froud> ca is commit svn up
<froud> xh I have no response from translator
<froud> will give a phone call
<enrico> pt ca de came into my computer
<froud> it was done at Wits Uni
<froud> svn up and compare
<jsgotangco> ok just 2 omf for about-ubuntu and release-notes?
<froud> jsgotangco: yes please
<jsgotangco> ok done
<froud> sent to list?
<enrico> Please tell me when I should do the last upload
<froud> enrico: I will
<jsgotangco> sent
<jsgotangco> !
<mdke> ok great stuff guys
<froud> svn add -N about-ubuntu-tl.omf release-notes-tl.omf 
<froud> A about-ubuntu-tl.omf
<froud> A release-notes-tl.omf
<froud> successfully (0)
<froud> svn commit -m i18n omf about-ubuntu-tl.omf release-notes-tl.omf --non-interactive 
<froud> Adding about-ubuntu-tl.omf
<froud> Adding release-notes-tl.omf
<froud> Transmitting file data ..
<froud> Committed revision 858.
<froud> successfully (0)
<mdke> yep they've come through here
<enrico> $ svk pull
<enrico> Syncing https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos
<enrico> Retrieving log information from 858 to 858
<enrico> Committed revision 2451 from revision 858.
<enrico> Syncing //docteam/trunk(/docteam/trunk) in /home/enrico/dev/ubuntu/faq to 2451.
<enrico> A   debian/about-ubuntu-tl.omf
<enrico> A   debian/release-notes-tl.omf
<enrico> seb128 on ubuntu devel tells me that the version is "5.04", not "5.4"
<froud> 5.04 should be
<enrico> I'm fixing them all in the OMF files
<enrico> Can someone check the other documents?
<mdke> which need checking?
<jsgotangco> its 5.4!
<mdke> eh?
<enrico> mdke: I did a grep in all the .xml files, and it seems to be ok
<enrico> jsgotangco: 5.04, they say
<mdke> cool
<mdke> its def. 5.04
<mdke> ok looking in yelp the release-notes are clean
<jsgotangco> are the omf files ok to have 5.4?
<mdke> jsgotangco, no ;)
<enrico> jsgotangco: should be 5.04, but I fixed it already
<jsgotangco> ok
<mdke> that was seriously fast enrico 
<jsgotangco> ah there
<mdke> already in svn too
<jsgotangco> svn up updated it
<jsgotangco> ya
<mdke> what a man
<jsgotangco> were going to the distance *grin*
<mdke> right i gtg to study
<enrico> ok, so we only miss .xh?
<mdke> yeah
<froud> no response
<enrico> wow
<mdke> we rock
<enrico> what language is that?
<jsgotangco> woo hoo
<froud> Xhosa
<mdke> enrico, froud got it off the university
<froud> African Language
<enrico> froud: which one?
<froud> Well actually Canonical paid Wits to do it
<mdke> oh
<froud> One of our 11 official languages
<enrico> Zulu?
<jsgotangco> ohh
<jsgotangco> xhosa
<enrico> ah, ok
<froud> enrico: no
<enrico> I had a look at the file, and it looks like ROT-13-encrypted :)
<mdke> LOL
<jsgotangco> lol
<Burgundavia> I love it, SA has 11 official languages
<Burgundavia> and their passports are in English and French
<Burgundavia> French is not on the of 11
<Burgundavia> s/on/one
<mdke> hi corey
<jsgotangco> lol
<jsgotangco> are those 11 languages or dialects?
<mdke> ok i'm off
<Burgundavia> 111 languages
<enrico> Italy has 1 official language and none speaks it correctly
<Burgundavia> make that 11
<enrico> None cares, even :)
<jsgotangco> *grin*
<froud> each language is different
<enrico> Everyone's got they own local variant, and a local different language improperly called "dialect"
<froud> enrico: I can giv eyou OMF files but they are just not translated. Is that ok
<froud> but at least the user will be able to see the document
<enrico> "trash" is "pattume" in Italian, "rusco" in Bologna and "rsc" in bolognese
* enrico needs to disconnect bye
<froud> <colspec colname="C1" colwidth=""/>
<froud> svn commit -m i18n omf about-ubuntu-xh.omf release-notes-xh.omf --non-interactive 
<froud> Adding about-ubuntu-xh.omf
<froud> Adding release-notes-xh.omf
<froud> Transmitting file data ..
<froud> Committed revision 860.
<froud> successfully (0)
<jsgotangco> woo hooo we rock
<froud> enrico: they are not translated but at least the users will see the docs in Yelp
<jsgotangco> froud: i have a question about make po
<jsgotangco> how come when i do it it patches some files and when i try to open thepatched files in yelp they wont open at all
<jsgotangco> but when i revert they open correctly
<froud> Problems in the po create invalid xml
<froud> I see problems with &quot;
<froud> we will need to use <quote></quote>
<jsgotangco> ahh i guess that can't be helped for now
<froud> in en xml and so in pot and so in po
<froud> ho ho ho
<froud> not now
<jsgotangco> 6 months from now
<jsgotangco> *grin*
<froud> enrico: sun up and build and upload we're done
<jsgotangco> ok i guess we're all done im packing up
<froud> enrico: can we get commit accounts for mdke n jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> that would be nice
<jsgotangco> doh
<froud> Oh no
<froud> ok I will email him
<jsgotangco> ok im out
<froud> Time to get you two accounts
<jsgotangco> that would be nice thank you
<froud> you have enough experience to know what you are doing
<jsgotangco> *grin* oh really
<jsgotangco> hehhe
<froud> no thanks to you for the help
<froud> could not have done it wothout you
<jsgotangco> awww that's nice to know well thanks again and see ya
<froud> ok I am gonna tag
* enrico uploaded 0.7 with the translated OMF files
<enrico> devels are not happy: uploads seem to be very restricted today
<froud-work> Hmm well if they would only talk to us
<froud-work> but they get carried away and forget us, as usual
<froud-work> enrico: I just got he Xhosa translations. Think if I commit them we can inclde it
<enrico> froud-work: they advertised it in the topic of #ubuntu-devel and in the ubuntu-devel mailing list
<enrico> I just happen not to read both of them
<froud-work> enrico: that is not an excuse
<enrico> (which is not unreasonable, if you're almost disconnected :)
<froud-work> we have had at tleast three devels in here
<froud-work> they know the status
<enrico> froud-work: what about those Xhosa translations?
<enrico> I see -xh OMF files are in
<enrico> or you mean something else?
<froud-work> enrico: I am about to commit updates to them.
<froud-work> this time they are translated
<enrico> ah, cool! :)
<froud-work> the ones in svn now are not
<enrico> commit them, then I'll see what I can do
<froud-work> done
<enrico> I'll see if I can get clearance for another upload
<froud-work> thanks
<enrico> any more changes?
<enrico> froud-work: (seems like the murphy law I mentioned you in my last e-mail, worked even without the tag)
<froud-work> not that I know of. 
<enrico> I'm tempted of calling this one 1.0
<enrico> but then why not 5.04, and whatnot
<froud-work> it is a good idea
<enrico> so maybe it'll be 0.8
<enrico> 1.0 it is
<froud-work> ok I am gonna tag, your packaging should build from the tag not the trunk
<froud-work> OK
<enrico> froud-work: I just committed
<enrico> one version updated
<enrico> you know, you want that in the tag :)
<froud-work> tagged stuff is copied to tags/
<froud-work> enrico: when I do the copy I do it to tags/ubuntu-docs-1.0/
<enrico> froud-work: great! thanks
<froud-work> the message is noted as tag for hoary 5.04
<froud-work> ok min let me do it now
<enrico> Someone up for testing the last new package?
<enrico> it's in http://lento.uncasino.it/enrico/store/ubuntu-docs-1.0.tar.gz
<enrico> "Lento un casino" in Italian means "a lot slow"
<enrico> you're warned :)
<enrico> you untar the file, and you have the source package
<enrico> you dpkg-source -x ubuntu-docs-something.dsc
<enrico> cd ubuntu-docs-1.0
<enrico> dpkg-buildpackage -us -uc -rfakeroot
<enrico> then you'll have the .deb that can be installed
<froud-work> enrico: https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/tags/ubuntu-docs-1.0 at r865
<froud-work> svn export from there
<froud-work> whew that means we can get on with restructure
<enrico> Kamion is reviewing the last packages
<enrico> He's being very nice
<froud-work> :-) so everyting in the tag
<froud-work> svn will be a bit hectic for the bext week as I do restructure
<froud-work> which means make and builds will break ;-)
<froud-work> I will try limit the damage
<Kinnison> froud: can't you restructure in a branch and then merge it in once it's working?
<froud-work> Yes I can
<froud-work> but why when we planned it
<froud-work> I need input from people 
<froud-work> but if people want I will do it in a hole
<froud-work> adds a bit of overhead for me cause I will need to track the trunk
<Kinnison> doing it on a branch means people can still specifically get your branch and add comments
<froud-work> He he yes they can, but many wont want the headache of another full checkout
<froud-work> or will they
<Kinnison> It's not that big is it?
* Kinnison has about twelve checkouts of launchpad
<Kinnison> for various branch work
<froud-work> He he
<Kinnison> and that's almost 40 megs of source code each
<froud-work> our trunk is 57 meg once you have the management files
<froud-work> Kinnison: you make a good point I will ask on the list and see what peple think
<Kinnison> froud-work: 57 megs unbuilt?!
<froud-work> yes
<Kinnison> cripes that's big
<froud-work> screen captures dude
<Kinnison> I guess so
<froud-work> binary what can I do
<Kinnison> Pity you can't capture them as SVG or something
<Kinnison> launchpad (built and running) is 250M so :-)
* froud-work had plans for that
<froud-work> but svg would add complications
<froud-work> yelp does not support them
<froud-work> and b'sides we still need the png
<froud-work> sucks
<froud-work> well lets see what people want to do
<enrico> 15:24 < Kamion> enrico: ubuntu-docs_1.0-1 installed
<enrico> froud-work: can't take a screenshot in SVG unless you hack X really intensely :)
<enrico> Although, maybe, asking the app to redraw, then dumping the X protocol traffic and trying to build a vector image out of that... =8-|
<froud-work> enrico: rathe ryou than me :-)
<enrico> froud-work: :)
<jsgotangco> i cant sleep
<jsgotangco> froud: if we branch, it becomes intrusive?
<froud> why your brain is buzzing with all the work and learning you have
<froud> jsgotangco: you branch if the change you want to make are intrusive to the trunk
<jsgotangco> its only 11:40pm but i just read your email and it got more confusing to me so i logged into my wife's laptop now
<froud> however if nobody sees it as intrusive then we just do it in trunk
<jsgotangco> trunk is simpler but branch is more favored?
<froud> niether in mho
<froud> if people what to do it in trunk we can do it
<froud> For example I have a branch
<jsgotangco> ok let me get this right when you say branch is this like a fork?
<froud> I have been doing stuff there so that it would not impact on Hoary
<jsgotangco> yes i got that right
<froud> kinda like a fork except we can merge back
<jsgotangco> so the branch would be exclusive to 5.10?
<froud> jsgotangco: you want some bed time reading?
<froud> no
<froud> the branch is temporary
<jsgotangco> ok a nice intro would do
<jsgotangco> AHHHHH
<froud> it lives and then is merged into trunk
<froud> you should read svn book
<jsgotangco> i should
<jsgotangco> ok its much clearer now
<jsgotangco> when you said it was temporary
<froud> http://svnbook.red-bean.com/en/1.1/svn-book.html
<jsgotangco> ok last: so the branch merges to trunk in the end right
<froud> when all the chaos is over
<jsgotangco> but the trunk would be borked in sort of way?
<jsgotangco> ahhh
<froud> no trunk is still workable
<jsgotangco> because right now, we mess up the trunk itself right
<froud> if somebody say wants to write on User Guide
<froud> they can continue
<froud> cause we are in branch
<froud> all we need do is track trunk
<froud> and merge changes to user guide into branch
<jsgotangco> the branch contains only a part of the trunk?
<froud> no the whole
<froud> but can also have a part
<jsgotangco> right
<froud> in this case the whole
<froud> cause we have tag we have backup
<froud> cause we in svn we have revisions
<froud> so we can either take from tag
<froud> or we can roll forwward and back
<jsgotangco> ok i better read that link ill get it in no time
<froud> see svn switch command on how to toggle between branches and trunk
<froud> when you switch to a branch your trunk becomes the branch
<froud> this can be confusing
<jsgotangco> i see thats why you insist on esvn
<froud> so some developers just have a checkout of the trunk and of the branch
<froud> eSvn will just make life easier for you
<froud> you can use svn and learn the commands
<jsgotangco> but why do we want to branch just in case if it seems so chaotic?
<froud> cause with eSvn you can see the commands issued
<froud> no, some people would not like to have a choas
<froud> others dont mind
<froud> you want to learn something new
<froud> so branch is interesting to you
<froud> for others they dont
<froud> so it depends on the team
<jsgotangco> well i admit i havent even learned like 10% of trunk in my opinion
<froud> my reasoning for the branch was not so much because it is better or worse, just to take others into consideration
<jsgotangco> ahhh
<froud> jsgotangco: did you install eSvn
<jsgotangco> yes i did
<froud> and how do you find it
<jsgotangco> but i am in my wife's xp laptop atm
<jsgotangco> well i admit i didnt read the manual
<jsgotangco> but when i saw the trunk it was much easier to navigate
<froud> did you understand the gui
<froud> yes
<froud> also updates etc are easier to see
<jsgotangco> and i already saw the status of the documents so it was a plus
<froud> yep
<froud> you did not have to learn svn syntax
<jsgotangco> i will be trying it out later and will probably be of use to me before UDU
<froud> but you could see the commands
<jsgotangco> ahh
<froud> Oh great are you going to UDU
<jsgotangco> *grin* i got sponsored
<froud> Oh nice
<froud> well at least one of us is going
<jsgotangco> thats why i felt responsible for learning some more before UDU so ill make sense there in a BOF or whatever
<froud> I think enrico will also go
<froud> I have too much work on my plate to go
<froud> good, I am glad you are going
<jsgotangco> i got lucky i guess, as to i am unemployed at the moment and pigging out on the time
<froud> hmmm, lots of unemployed people around
<froud> better to work for yourself
<jsgotangco> well at least i am not bumming around i might be able to use what i am doing here someday who knows
<froud> absolutely
<froud> hey well I must carry on with my XSL custom layer
<jsgotangco> ok i better start reading thanks again
<froud> get some sleep or wake the wife up
<froud> ;-)
<jsgotangco> "grin*
<jsgotangco> ok laterz
<mdke> boyz
<froud> girls
<claude> animals
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> speak for yourself
<claude> i do :)
<mdke> heh
<froud> maskie: how r the cows?
<claude> thx for packaging, works like a charm
<froud> cool thank enrico for that
<froud> told you to trust him ;-)
<claude> you were right
<claude> but it was just in time
<mdke> heh
<mdke> perhaps a timetable for next time...
<mdke> you guys know anything about pgp?
<mdke> and evolution
<froud> some
<mdke> enrico's emails say that the key is valid but it couldn't check the sender
<mdke> sorry that wasn't clear
<mdke> with enrico's emails, evolution says that the key is valid but it couldn't check the sender
<froud> Hmm, you got me there
<mdke> whats your key number btw?
<froud> mdke: I just sent you my public keys, import them
<mdke> k
<mdke> thx
<mdke> if i can figure out how
<mdke> with enrico and jgotango i just did --recv-key number
<froud> should be a feature to import when you right click the attached key.
<froud> yeah should do it
<froud> dunno why it cant check the sender
<mdke> same with you
<mdke> "valid signature, cannot verify sender"
<mdke> maybe I need to import them into evolution somehow
<froud> try it with my key now from inside evolution
<froud> I dont use GNOME so I use Kmail
<mdke> i've just imported it using command line: gpg --import you.asc
<mdke> maybe i need to certify it too
<froud> and does it recognise me
<mdke> "valid signature, cannot verify sender"
<froud> remove it and use evolution
<froud> add it to your keyring
<mdke> evolution doesn't seem to do that
<mdke> its ok
<froud> dumb app
<mdke> heh
<mdke> i think i've found the solution
<froud> com eto kde
<froud> kpgp makes it easy
<mdke> i think i have to sign your key
<mdke> oh yeah, that's done the trick
<mdke> cli rules
<froud> yep atomic
<froud> what was the solution
<mdke> i edited your key and signed it
<mdke> it asked me if I was sure the key was actually yours
<froud> Hmm now why do you need to do that
<mdke> double security
<froud> ok remove it
<mdke> ?
<froud> I just sent you something else to try
<froud> remove it so we can test
<mdke> remove your key?
<froud> yes
<mdke> i have to find out how
<froud> I sent you a new mail with key
<mdke> a different key?
<froud> slightly
<froud> that one is signed
<froud> the new one that is
<mdke> how do i remove a key
<mdke> ok done
<mdke> have imported the next one
<mdke> same error:
<mdke> "valid signature, cannot verify sender"
<froud> hmm thats dumb
<froud> what key number do you have
<mdke> the reason is that someone might send me a fraudulent key
<mdke> so i have to sign it to verify that its yours
<mdke> when i've doublechecked ;)
<froud> do you hav ethe key pair
<froud> or just the ElGamal
<froud> my key pair is F4FB4332F0C34EA6
<mdke> i only have the one ending A6
<mdke> what is a pair?
<froud> key and signature
<froud> the one above
<mdke> no idea what you're on about :/
<froud> dont worry
<mdke> anyway all is well
<froud> cool so send me your public keys
<mdke> after I verify your fingerprint and sign, the email is fine
<mdke> ok
<mdke> sent btw
<froud> thanks I have it and it is already in ;-) kpgp you gotta love it
<mdke> hmm
* mdke tries gnome-gpg
<mdke> ooh
<mdke> also gpgp
<froud> much easier
<mdke> nah
<mdke> i like cli
<mdke> especially when learning about gpg
<mdke> gtg now
<mdke> cya later
<claude> froud: what about the faqguide ?
<froud> what about it?
<claude> seems there was a problem with modifications outside of docbook
<claude> is it still a project of docteam ?
<froud> I dunno, I got message from the author who said he did not know cause he was not reading his email
<froud> I told him how to get it
<froud> then silence
<froud> It is still one of our projects
<froud> I would just like it done in svn
<claude> but we need his collaboration
<froud> it would be nice, but not necisary to continue
<claude> that is... you'll do a fork ?
<froud> not by choice
<froud> but hey
<froud> claude: why do you ask?
<claude> froud: because i read your mail and since hasn't got any feedback
<froud> Oh ok
<claude> froud: about svn restructuring
<claude> if you're sure about your restructuration
<claude> you should modify trunk
<claude> if there's still some tweakings
<claude> also to branch
<claude> not sure if that helps you :/
<froud> he he, cant be sure until done and no way to do it in one step
<claude> so we could say freeze trunk
<claude> and try in a branch
<froud> no need to freeze trunk we can merge
<claude> yes, but that's simpler if there's a minimum of modifications in trunk
<claude> it's a "convention" freeze
<claude> so we can also browse the branch with browser, don't need to download to be able to examine it
<froud> he he you feel like clicking a hundred times to see
<claude> not hundred, only ninety-nine :)
<claude> you shouldn't put the whole tree in the branch, only a skeleton
<froud> there is another way using svn list url
<froud> but still awkward
<froud> otherwise people must install eSvn and then they can browse explorer style
<froud> brb
<claude> cya
<mdke> froud, still here?
<froud> mmmmm hmmm
<mdke> heh
<mdke> what time zone are you in btw?
<froud> busting my balls on a docbook cust layer
<froud> South Africa GMT
<mdke> GMT?
<mdke> ok so its not late
<froud> 22H40
<froud> still early
<mdke> heh
<froud> but no sun outside
<mdke> no
<froud> can here the crickets
<froud> hear
<mdke> nice :)
<mdke> :/
<mdke> reminds me of italy
<mdke> listen, is there a stepbystep commit guide?
<froud> Dunno, is there
<mdke> dunno
<froud> what you got in mind?
<mdke> i thought you wrote all those pages
<mdke> froud, just wanted to find out how its done
<froud> not all but some
<froud> what a commit
<mdke> yeh
<mdke> i'm trying to read most of those pages
<froud> first svn up
<froud> then svn status
<froud> then svn commit
<froud> or svn commit file
<froud> you work on cli right
<mdke> oh i c
<mdke> so you don't need to diff or anything
<froud> I suggest you read http://svnbook.red-bean.com/en/1.0/svn-book.html
<froud> nope
<froud> :-)
<mdke> will bookmark it
<froud> It is a must read
<mdke> heh
<mdke> np i have plenty of time
<froud> especially since you will have a commit account ;-)
<mdke> yeah but i don't envisage using it for some time
<mdke> so I can take my time and learn properly
<froud> why
<mdke> froud, because if I understand correctly, you guys will be working out some structural stuff before works starts on the docs
<froud> well we may do it in a branch
<mdke> and also I won't start committing until i'm sure of myself
<froud> so long as you docs are well-formed and valid it will not be a problem
<mdke> heh
<froud> we or at least I will be checking you
<mdke> uhoh
<mdke> >_>
<mdke> <_<
<froud> help you though the pains
<mdke> i'll read the stuff
<froud> no dont worry
<froud> you will be fine really
<mdke> haven't even tried editing any docbook stuff yet
<mdke> so i'll take my time
<froud> you on gnome
<froud> used gedit at first
<froud> then look at emacs or vim
<froud> just feel your way around
<mdke> yeah ok
<froud> if you get lost shout and I will help
<mdke> there's a page on the wiki that mentions openoffice...
<mdke> but emacs/gedit are cool
<froud> not recomended, but yes
<mdke> i need to learn emacs properly too
* mdke bins his course
<froud> docbook is easy when you have help
<mdke> :)
<mdke> look forward to it
<mdke> right gtg, blackadder is on tv
<mdke> good night
#ubuntu-doc 2006-04-10
<robotgeek> hey fellow docs
<LaserJock> hi robotgeek 
<robotgeek> we need a nicer name :)
<crimsun> "authors" sounds nice
<robotgeek> LaserJock: nice vim mapping for aspell, i added some more to it. 
<LaserJock> cool
<robotgeek> i now load different files based on filetype, in hopes of modularizing and speeding up my vim
<robotgeek> howdy Burgundavia 
<LaserJock> robotgeek: do you have a URL for your updated .vimrc?
<Burgundavia> salut rob
<Burgundavia> robotgeek: 
<robotgeek> LaserJock: okay, let me post
<Madpilot> hi all
<Burgundavia> salut Madpilot
<Burgundavia> Madpilot: did you get that issue with clive's machien sorted?
<Madpilot> Burgundavia, sorting it right now, actually
<robotgeek> LaserJock: http://robotgeek.org/vimrc.txt
<Burgundavia> robotgeek: ahh, do you kinow anything about this and can you help fix it? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KdeDiskArchiver
<robotgeek> Burgundavia: nope, what langauge is this in :P
<robotgeek> Burgundavia: seems to be paste from http://kdar.sourceforge.net/kdar-html-docs/index.html
<Burgundavia> robotgeek: oh bugger. I will wipe it
<LaserJock> yeah, I got both a personal mediawiki and personal moin setup on my iMac today
<Burgundavia> hmm
<Burgundavia> what to do
<Burgundavia> I am proofing a chapter for the book, but it mentions using Xchat to connect to #ubuntu
<Burgundavia> however, xchat is no longer shipped
<robotgeek> LaserJock: i just use the desktop moin, it was painless to get working
<LaserJock> yeah, I have that at home on my Windows machine
<LaserJock> and there is MoinX for OSX that is a breeze too
<LaserJock> but mediawiki was a beast
<LaserJock> I finally got it going well using MAMP www.mamp.info
<LaserJock> hmm, I'm personally not fond of "Installing from a single package file" as a section title
<Burgundavia> nor am I
<Madpilot> Burgundavia, XChat has been demoted to Universe for Dapper, but it's still around (thankfully, given how XChat-Gnome bites...)
<robotgeek> LaserJock: i call the section "Manual Installation"
<LaserJock> Madpilot: I would hope not. Lots of people use it. More than xchat-gnome for sure
<Madpilot> I noticed that Matt put a mention of GAIM into the UDG's 'How to get help' section
<LaserJock> uggh, why don't we just tell them to use irssi, that's in main ;-)
<robotgeek> while we are at it, tell then to use screen also
<LaserJock> for sure
<crimsun> (why is it that all the gui irc clients I've tried absolutely choke when a user joins more than, say, 12 channels?)
<LaserJock> hmm, max I've ever done is 10 (gui or irssi)
<Madpilot> I've been on about 15 at once in XChat, it handled it OK. So did Opera's built-in IRC client
<crimsun> I have a row of illegible tabs of ellipses in konversation
<robotgeek> heh
<LaserJock> robotgeek: your aspell mapping is specific to sgml, what setting that according to file type?
<LaserJock> s/what/what about/
<robotgeek> LaserJock: since most of the documents i type which need spellchecking are xml, i use that
<LaserJock> gosh, I need to proofread my IRC today
<robotgeek> LaserJock: it is in ~/.vim/xml.vim which gets loaded only if filetype is xml
<LaserJock> robotgeek: what is: Contents of .vim/python.vim
<LaserJock> is that supposed to be a comment?
<robotgeek> LaserJock: well, the lines below that go to ~/.vim/python.vim (i catted it for you)
<LaserJock> ahhh, I see
<robotgeek> saves me the trouble of putting python specific stuff in my vimrc :)
<Burgundavia> Madpilot: bloody hell
<Madpilot> Burgundavia, hmm?
<Burgundavia> Madpilot: the whole irc thing
<Madpilot> XChat vs XChat-Gnome vs Gaim (which is supposed to have fairly bad IRC implementation)
<Madpilot> and both XChat & XChat-Gnome suck, to varying degrees and for different reasons :P
<LaserJock> you guys watching -devel?
<Burgundavia> yes
<Madpilot> nope
<Madpilot> what's up on -devel?
<crimsun> I affirm that Gaim's irc implementation blows even worse than Konversation's
<LaserJock> a guy wrote a program to make Gaim open up irc:// urls
<Madpilot> crimsun, heh - that leaves Ubuntu without a sane IRC app... (XChat being, IMO, the best of the lot, but far from ideal...)
<Burgundavia> crimsun: it also takes about 15 steps to get into #ubuntu
<Madpilot> XChat launches into #ubuntu by default - -Gnome just sits there :P
<Burgundavia> yep
<Madpilot> hi robitaille 
* robotgeek goes on a status tags changing spree
<robitaille> hi Madpilot 
<Madpilot> On Dapper, flashplugin-nonfree has replaced  flashplayer-mozilla, right?
<Kamping_Kaiser> ping? i just got an error on cron regarding one of the docs, but when i open it i don't see an error
<Kamping_Kaiser> who should i ask about it?
<robotgeek> Kamping_Kaiser: care to explain?
<robotgeek> Madpilot: yup. 
<Madpilot> robotgeek, OK, I'll update UDG. Thanks
<Kamping_Kaiser> scrollkeeper couldnt find an ent file which is linked to in ///usr/share/Gnome/help/about-ubuntu/C/about-ubuntu.xml . i;m wondering who to check with about it. 
<robotgeek> i think i saw a bug report today
<Kamping_Kaiser> long as i'm not alone
<robotgeek> Kamping_Kaiser: https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-docs/+bug/38062 looks familiar?
<Kamping_Kaiser> yes, but mines a lot less scary :)
<Madpilot> Burgundavia, in Ubuntu Dapper, is the Configuration Editor available by default in menus? (In Breezy it's Apps->System Tools->Config. Editor
<Burgundavia> Madpilot: nope
<Burgundavia> it is hidden
<Burgundavia> alt-f2 gconf-editor
<Madpilot> installed but not in the menu?
<Madpilot> yeah, I'll recommend Alt-F2 then in UDG
<Burgundavia> yep
<mdke> morning
<Madpilot> hi mdke 
<mdke> Madpilot, still waiting on flashplayer-mozilla, btw
<mdke> I'll poke infinity
<bhuvan> cd
* bhuvan have typed in wrong window
<mdke> :)
<mdke> bhuvan, did you see Rocco's second patch for the apache section?
<bhuvan> mdke, yes; but i guess there was no attachment ?
<mdke> oh
<bhuvan> i expect him to send with attachment or atleast i should intimate him
<mdke> bhuvan, we should reply, telling him so :)
<bhuvan> ok, i'll
<mdke> he must have forgotten it
<mdke> bhuvan, thanks
<mdke> ok, so are we go on the yelp frontpage? I like andreas' improvements to the wording
<bhuvan> mdke, np
<mdke> Madpilot, that flash thing, flashplayer-mozilla should be coming back... but if we stay with the other package, I think we will have to include a couple of extra steps to get it working, because that's just a downloader package
<Madpilot> mdke, ah, OK - I just use Macromedia's installer, myself...
<mdke> Madpilot, that's not a bad idea either :)
<Madpilot> it works with all browsers (not just FF) and it doesn't change based on the vagarities of open-source politics :P
<mdke> yes, i did it that way the other day, it works fine
<rob> woah.. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ThirdPartyPackages
<rob> click 'n' run eat your heart out
<mdke> rob, that spec has been implemented
<mdke> hasn't seemed to stop people commenting though
<mdke> rob, i've posted about your lulu idea
<mdke> can someone tell me if gsfonts-x11 is installed by default in dapper?
<bhuvan> mdke, i guess not
<bhuvan> i use dapper (upgraded from breezy), it does not contain gsfonts-x11
<mdke> bhuvan, thanks
<bhuvan> mdke, np
<bhuvan> mdke, btw, yesterday i took a session on "contributing to Ubuntu" in my office
<bhuvan> around 30 of my collegues attended the session. overall it went well
<mdke> bhuvan, cool!!!
<mdke> nice one
<bhuvan> i've scheduled it on apr 09, 3pm-3:30pm IST at barcamp
* mdke nods, string freeze will be out the way by then
<mdke> bhuvan, is the server guide looking ok to be frozen in the next couple of days?
* bhuvan does double check
<bhuvan> mdke, imo, it's ok. except 1 or 2 sections are incomplete
<mdke> the status report is still showing a lot of "review" tags
<mdke> probably, trappist has reviewed lots of those already, not sure
<bhuvan> mdke, yes; he did
<bhuvan> i guess only nntp is incomplete
<mdke> do you have time to do a quick update of the tags, so we can see what is going on?
<bhuvan> sue
<bhuvan> s/sue/sure
<bhuvan> i'll update before eod today
<mdke> yay
<mdke> thanks a lot dude
<bhuvan> np
<mdke> gotta love henrik
<mdke> that's a much better logout dialogue
<mdke> http://people.ubuntu.com/~henrik/images/collapsing-logout.png
* mdke hacks away at multimedia in the desktop guide
<mdke> nearly there, only DVDs to be resolved now, I think
<jjesse> cheer
<mdke> trappist, yes, not currently used, it isn't in serverguide.xml
<mdke> shame tho
<trappist> yeah
<trappist> if I'd noticed earlier maybe I coulda done something, but we're coming up on that string freeze and I lost my final round of apache2 changes and hafta do it again :/
<mdke> it's a bit late to revive it, probably
<mdke> yeah, bummer about that
<trappist> what file contains the "conventions" section at the top of each manual?
<mdke> common/C/preface.xml, except in the desktop guide
<trappist> thanks
<trappist> you know what would be handy here?  a bot that lives on docteam.ubuntu.com and spouts to the channel on events like svn commits.
<mdke> yeah
<robotgeek> howz it going?
<highvoltage> fantabulous
<highvoltage> how are you, robotgeek 
<robotgeek> highvoltage: just woke up :)
<highvoltage> morning person?
<robotgeek> highvoltage: no, it's 11:30 am
<highvoltage> i would also be in a good mood if i only got up at 11:30 in the mornings :)
<trappist> no kidding
<robotgeek> i did go to bed only at 4:00 am
<trappist> you know what else would be handy?  a trac site for the svn repo
<mdke> trac?
<trappist> see one of mine: http://ipkungfu.ufsoft.org/
<mdke> well you can browse the repo online, and file bugs and so on, just not all in the same place, I guess
<trappist> I think it'd be nice for us to have our own place to track progress, assign tickets, view diffs, etc.  I've used trac at my last two jobs and I find it pretty indispensible.
<mdke> another ticket system might clash with malone, tho
<mdke> but viewing diffs might be helpful i suppose, although the mailing list is good for that
<trappist> malone is great for bugs submitted by users, to make us aware of them.  a trac site would be for internal use, to keep us from stepping on each other's toes, etc., and it's a little more specialized than malone for this.  it'd serve a separate purpose.
<mdke> could be, maybe I just can't visualise it
<mdke> nice work on apache2, trappist :)
<trappist> thanks
<trappist> mdke: I felt pretty much the same way when my last boss announced we'd be using trac.  after trying half a dozen other ticket systems, progress trackers, repo frontends, etc., it was like, whatever.  but trac is pretty great.
<trappist> if only they'd rewrite it in ruby so I could hack on it more :)
<mdke> ok, so the server guide looks mainly done, except "Firewall Configuration", is that pretty raw?
<trappist> no, I did a lot of work on that.  possibly I didn't update the status.
<mdke> ok rock
<robotgeek> mdke: what do i do with sections that are unfinished
<mdke> robotgeek, i think it depends on what they are. If they'll be finished in a day or two, that'll be ok
<robotgeek> okay
<mdke> otherwise, and if they're not essential, cut em out, I suppose
<robotgeek> nice job on single line introduction to chapters
<mdke> thanks
<robotgeek> back after some coffee 
<trappist> just looked at the firewall section.  it might want to be a little more complete for dapper+1 but its status should be review.
<trappist> aw crap.  cupsys has been massively updated and the printing section of the serverguide might need some work to correspond with that.  I'll check it out.
<trappist> yep it does.
<robotgeek> mdke: in UDG, About This Guide doesn't talk about the Getting Started chapter, is this intentional?
<mdke> robotgeek, no
<mdke> thanks :)
<robotgeek> np
<robotgeek> mdke: how did you get the sect1 to go on a different page? just by adding a para before sect1 or xsl foo?
<mdke> magic in the xsl
<mdke> shall I do it for kubuntu too?
<robotgeek> mdke: please :)
<mdke> ok
<mdke> done
<robotgeek> thanks!
<WaterSevenUb> mdke, typo in about-ubuntu.xml:64(para) gves=gives
<robotgeek> one of these days, i will sit down and learn xsl
<mdke> robotgeek, me too
<mdke> WaterSevenUb, thanks
<mdke> WaterSevenUb, you know you shouldn't be translating that though :)
<WaterSevenUb> mdke, yeah :) just looking around ;) in any case it will preserve some work, I guess..
<mdke> yep, nice catch on that typo
<WaterSevenUb> mdke, hey, the doc string freeze is tomorrow :-)
<WaterSevenUb> ?
<mdke> yes
<robotgeek> WaterSevenUb: 7 hours, 40 minutes away
<WaterSevenUb> aaah... good good :) eheh. I was scared with your warning but in 7 hours you can't stop me ;-)
<mdke> how do you know the pot file is up to date?
<WaterSevenUb> I was just looking around... yeah... it might not be up to date at all :) 
<mdke> that one is ok
<mdke> the serverguide one is old tho
<WaterSevenUb> yeah... and it seems some translators in our team have been actively translating them. Hopefully some work will be preserved.
<WaterSevenUb> by the way, in the end you decided to include translated docs in ubuntu.com? I just noticed web-index I guess it is for that...
<mdke> i think so. i haven't had many replies, tbh
<WaterSevenUb> I agree with the idea. It does not stop local teams from including guides in their own websites.
<mdke> good
<robotgeek> mdke: in http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/desktopguide/C/add-applications-introduction.html , the word section should be replaced by chapter maybe?
<mdke> robotgeek, ok
<mdke> done, thanks
<robotgeek> mdke: http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/desktopguide/C/hardware.html#other-hardware is there supposed to be a listing somewhere?
<robotgeek> nvm, my bad
<jjesse> robotgeek: how are things going today?
<robotgeek> jjesse: doing, good. proof reading, and making slight changes
<jjesse> robotgeek: good to hear
<robotgeek> jjesse: how are things on your end?
<jjesse> robotgeek: really good, finishing some suggestions riddell made for the chapter and hopefully will update the release notes and about kubuntu (if it needs it tonight)
<robotgeek> jjesse: for the book chapter?
<jjesse> riddells suggestion were for the book
<robotgeek> jjesse: when can you finish off the stuff for KDG? (handhelds, etc)
<jjesse> as soon as possible
<robotgeek> jjesse: sorry to be so pushy :)
<jjesse> robotgeek: you aren't it's keeping me busy :)
<trappist> is there a "what really needs to get done before the freeze" list?  for example, is proofreading ok post-freeze and a waste of precious time now?
<robotgeek> trappist: well, i suppose the things with "help" in them :)
<frank_> I can do some proofreading for the kubuntu desktop guide. What part should I do?
<robotgeek> frank_: svn up, and go through config system
<frank_> robotgeek: ok. do you want me to try the steps or just check the spelling?
<robotgeek> frank_: well, i do think they are correct, but see if you know if something is wrong. 
* robotgeek also spellchecked with aspell yesterday
<LaserJock> ;-)
<frank_> robotgeek: ok. 
<LaserJock> I'm working through your .vimrc file robotgeek 
<robotgeek> LaserJock: cool :)
<LaserJock> mdke: around?
<LaserJock> robotgeek: I like the idea of modularizing it a bit more
<robotgeek> LaserJock: saw it in someone's muttrc
<LaserJock> that's the other rc I need to work on
<robotgeek> i need to setup imap first
<trappist> my muttrc is extremely modularized
<robotgeek> i think mine too :)
<trappist> [trappist@temple trappist] $ ls .mutt
<trappist> adfooters  aliases  bindings  cavok  certificates  colors  folderhooks  gpg.rc  home  imappass  lists  macros  mailbox  mailboxes  me.cavok  mlfooters  muttrc  muttrc.t-prot  poppass  savehooks  scptmp  scripts  settings  sidebar  signature
* robotgeek bows to trappist 
<trappist> you may rise.
<LaserJock> I'm still trying to figure out how to *use* mutt to any extent. I've used pine for a long time
<robotgeek> i use kmail now, very nice
<robotgeek> beats the missing attachment problem
<trappist> I switched back to kmail after using mutt for a coupla years.  I'll probably stick with kmail this time.
<trappist> I think using mutt is a lot like using vim - there's a lot of learning to be done, but it's pretty darn nice once you figure it out
<robotgeek> :)
<frank_> robotgeek: geek in Preventing the Ctrl-Alt-Backspace shortcut keys from restarting X, the example points to nothing
<robotgeek> frank_: just corrected the links
<robotgeek> let me doublecheck
<LaserJock> pine works very well for me for a CLI mail reader except it's GPG capabilities are not that great
<LaserJock> s/it's/its/, right trappist?
<trappist> yes
<trappist> gpg in mutt works wonderfully
<trappist> better than kmail, in that it'll remember your passphrase for a configurable amount of time, though that's a bit of a security issue
<robotgeek> frank_: i corrected the makefile in the last commit, (about 15 minutes ago) so svn up and build it again :)
<frank_> robotgeek: ok. can I continue doing changes to the congig-system I already opened?
<robotgeek> frank_: you might have to reintegrate the patch or send it to me, i will do it
<frank_> robotgeek: svn put my changes and yours together. it builds.  so I guess it looks alright. I'm very new to svn!
<robotgeek> frank_: cool, what changes did you make?
<frank_> robotgeek: just punctuation for now
<frank_> robotgeek: Actuallly I lost my changes. only 2 so I can do it again.
<robotgeek> frank_: cool, i'll wait before touching that chapter again
<frank_> actually I think it DID work. I'm just confused I think....
<robotgeek> frank_: svn status, svn diff :)
<frank_> robotgeek: yeah. it looks good ;)
<trappist> looks like we need to entity-ize gcc and glibc versions.  wouldn't hurt to do kernel versions either.
<trappist> GCC 4.0.1 and glibc 2.3.5 are out of date
* LaserJock needs to go through the packaging guide and entity-ize :(
<frank_> Install the rar package from the <emphasis>Multiverse</emphasis> repository.   tag for rar ?
<robotgeek> frank_: which reminds me, i need to add unrar-nonfree somewhere too :)
<robotgeek> frank_: hmm, lemme see what tag we use for package names
<frank_> <application>rar</application> 
<robotgeek> frank_: okay, go ahead
<frank_> that's what qtparted uses
<mdke> Burgwork, someone mailed me to complain that you deleted https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KdeDiskArchiver They say they spent 5 hours on it. It seems not to be recoverable.
<mdke> LaserJock, pong
<Burgwork> mdke, I moved the homepage
<Burgwork> the text was a straight copy from another source
* Burgwork curses the wikis lack of communication
<mdke> Burgwork, KdeDiskArchiver I don't think was a homepage, from how he described it. Does it exist elsewhere?
<mdke> he says he was doing a translation
<LaserJock> mdke: I was just going to mention that "Manuals for the programs found in the Applications menu" could be a bit misleading
<Burgwork> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Virusbuster?action=diff&rev2=41&rev1=39
<Burgwork> mdke, please ask him not to do it on the wiki and instead contact upstream
<LaserJock> mdke: especially with https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MenusRevisited
<mdke> Burgwork, isn't it documentation?
<Burgwork> mdke, it is copied from elsewhere and thus cannot be PD
<mdke> Burgwork, so has he lost his work or not, I don't understand?
<Burgwork> no, it is there
<Burgwork> he had a wierd amalgam of his homepage and this translation work
<Burgwork> do I nuke the translated non-PD stuff and moved the page
<mdke> without asking first?
<mdke> that's very harsh
<Burgwork> I should have left a note, for which I realize is now a mistake
<mdke> anyway, glad it's still there somewhere
<mdke> i'll mail him
<Burgwork> it is a translation of upstreams manually, so it better done with them
<mdke> right, but for a newcomer to a wiki it's disconcerting to stay up til 3am and then have your work nuked
<mdke> especially since the public domain thing hasn't yet been implemented
<frank_> sudo crontab -e   this uses vi. what would be the kde equivalent?  kdesu kate /etc/?   This is for the Run a system command automatically at Startup  section
<mdke> frank_, it uses the system default editor. The kde equivalent is the same
<frank_> yeah but this is the first time I see the kubuntu desktop guide assume you know vi. I think that should be avoided
<Burgwork> why the heck do I get useless emails about the wiki, but when someone wants to complain, they don't email me
<mdke> because you're not the coordinator of the italian translation project
<Burgwork> ah
<mdke> frank_, it's a bug in Ubuntu that it uses vi as the default editor
<robotgeek> heh, using nano is tough for me now!
<trappist> we need a way to be alerted to version upgrades for stuff like python and glibc
<trappist> for release notes
<LaserJock> trappist: those don't change all that often
<LaserJock> trappist: how specific should we be?
<trappist> looks like we're using the upstream version number
<trappist> I'm sure it doesn't change that often, but python, gcc and glibc have all changed since the release notes were written
<frank_> robotgeek: Skip boot-up services temporarily   will you add something here? 
<LaserJock> trappist: it depends on whether you report the major version or complete version. For instance we use Python 2.4, that hasn't changed
<trappist> the release notes said 2.4.2
<LaserJock> right, but maybe the release note should have 2.4 although probably the fuller version gives us a newer look ;-)
<LaserJock> anyway, it wouldn't be hard to whip up a script that checks for the current versions
<robotgeek> frank_: no, do you have anything to add?
<robotgeek> i also want Makefiles which don't build the whole thing again :)
<frank_> robotgeek: I don't even know when that Ctrl-C should be used
<robotgeek> frank_: i am not sure if you can use it, we'll nuke the section
<frank_> robotgeek: ok
<mdke> i've nuked that in DG
<mdke> it works, but is unnecessary
<frank_> robotgeek: I'll delete it
<robotgeek> frank_: cool
<Burgwork> mdke, do you think you will be able to make it to the next ubuntu development meeting?
<mdke> Burgwork, don't know.
<Burgwork> mdke, would be nice if we could have more than one doc person
<mdke> I will try and make a weekend, maybe
<mdke> who else is going?
<Burgwork> I should be able to find the money to fund myself and should be able to take the time off work
<mdke> cool
<Burgwork> put as you know, sometimes my ideas clash with those of the doc team, so it is good to get a balanced perspective :)
<LaserJock> I'd like to go (both as a doc person and a MOTU) but I'm not sure if I have money for it
<lloydinho> hey, do you guys know when the next development meeting is going to take place (and where?)
<Burgwork> where is likely germany, time is now up in the air
<frank_> robotgeek: 3D ATI Video Card Driver section:  I have no idea if that works or not
<Burgwork> I expect third or fourth week of june
<lloydinho> thanks. I expect I'll be going, then.
<mdke> where are you from lloydinho?
<lloydinho> Denmark..
<robotgeek> frank_: okay, no problem. 
<mdke> cool
<lloydinho> oh, and to whoever finished up the packaging section in the DG: it looks really swell now.
<mdke> thanks, you, me and Brian did it :)
<lloydinho> :)
<mdke> LaserJock, I think the slight confusion is worth it. It's more confusing to have "Manuals for installed applications", because non graphical apps aren't in there
<lloydinho> If nobody else's reviewing "Burning CDs" section of the DG, I'll have a look at that..
<mdke> lloydinho, go for it. we also need to take a look at the DVD section
<mdke> 1. are extra codecs needed?
<mdke> 2. should we recommend a better dvd player?
<LaserJock> I see your point for sure, I can just see bug reports "XYZ  is in the Applications help but not in the Applications menu"
<mdke> the answer to 2 is almost certainly yes
<frank_> robotgeek: Winmodems: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SettingUpModems  should be the primary resource I think. 
<lloydinho> mdke: I'll review that, as well.
<mdke> LaserJock, yeah. it's a choice between 2 not perfect results. But those categories are so totally boned anyway, I don't think it's our fault
<LaserJock> lol
<LaserJock> I think at least having some description helps
<LaserJock> even an imperfect one ;-)
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> tricky
<robotgeek> frank_: it might be a good idea to just remove the previous sentence, i think
* robotgeek greps the kdg for gedit
<frank_> robotgeek: ok
<mdke> LaserJock, any other ideas for the phrasing?
<Burgwork> mdke, gxine works with the instructions given
<Burgwork> mdke, it is not the prettiest player, but it gets the job done
<mdke> Burgwork, great. no extra codecs or anything?
<Burgwork> just what is already there
<Burgwork> menus work
<mdke> is gxine different from xine-ui?
<Burgwork> no idea, I think so
<Burgwork> gxine is a gtk ui for xine
<mdke> ah ok
<mdke> i use xine-ui for dvds here on breezy, and it's relatively good looking
<mdke> it has a menu like a real dvd player
<Burgwork> ick
<Burgwork> menu like real dvd player is not actually useful
<mdke> well, I like it
<LaserJock> "Shipped Manuals", "Application Manuals", "Installed Manuals" ? I'm not sure
<LaserJock> but I found several CLI application manuals in there
<mdke> oh christ
<mdke> "Lucky Dip"
<LaserJock> sorry :/
* LaserJock just leaves. Never to cause anymore problems
<LaserJock> :-)
<mdke> not your fault, it's upstream crap
<mdke> Manuals for Installed Applications, I think
<mdke> any other ideas?
<LaserJock> perhaps, although it somewhat bothers me that that might imply that all installed apps have manuals there :s
<mdke> yes
<LaserJock> but I think it might  be the best we can do until those categories are cleaned up
<mdke> I can't think of anything better
<LaserJock> me neither at the moment
<robotgeek> frank_: ping
<frank_> robotgeek: I just finished
<robotgeek> frank_: awesome :)
<robotgeek> frank_: did not want to do anything without your patch :)
<frank_> robotgeek: what do you want me to do with the patch?
<robotgeek> frank_: mail it to me? / list
<frank_> I can mail to you
<frank_> venkatvc@ubuntu.com  right?
<robotgeek> yup. 
<rob> mdke, nice, I'll send some comments later from work :)
<LaserJock> mdke: do you know how easy it would be to update books with lulu?
<frank_> robotgeek: do you have an easy way to see exactly what are the changes I made?
<robotgeek> frank_: received, thanks. (better get an email address for the list)
<rob> LaserJock, you can do it all on line
<robotgeek> frank_: diff works for me, i can now read diffs :)
<LaserJock> rob: so would a new version be done for each release?
<rob> also bear in mind that without paying a fee (about $160) then the book will not get an ISBN number and thus not be available from bookstores
<mdke> LaserJock, you just upload them
<rob> it will be available online though the lulu bookstore though
<LaserJock> I was sort of feeling the waters about interest in a packaging book.
<mdke> i don't think online stores would be an option
<mdke> linking from the document itself was more what I had in mind
<frank_> robotgeek: yeah but is it easy to tell what I changed if all I did was remove a double  ..
<robotgeek> frank_: no problem, let me try kompare too 
<LaserJock> is the official Ubuntu book done?
<robotgeek> frank_: commited, thanks. 
* robotgeek curses kdesvn
<frank_> robotgeek: ok great
<robotgeek> frank_: kdesvn crashed locking the directory, i had read quite a bit :)
<frank_> ok
<frank_> robotgeek:  I wanted to try kdesvn and it crashed on me too
<robotgeek> frank_: it worked fine last time, dunno why it crashed this time. i'll probably try it at a lesser curcial time :)
<frank_> robotgeek: how many hours left?
<robotgeek> 3 hours
<frank_> robotgeek: oh... that's it. Do you want help with anything else?
<robotgeek> frank_: sure, more proofreading :)
<robotgeek> the only proofreading it has gotten has been from me
<frank_> robotgeek: hehe. yeah after a while it's impossible to see your own mistakes
<frank_> robotgeek: what part should I do? are you still adding new stuff or just polishing?
<robotgeek> yeah. plus the fact that we don't actually read all the words 
<robotgeek> frank_: i was planning on a adding a small section on switching keyboard layouts, but i think it is done automatically. so skipping that one
<frank_> robotgeek: once you have more than one setup (is that there?)  yuu click on the small flag to switch
<robotgeek> frank_: well, no section yet. maybe we should add that in?
<frank_> robotgeek: I say yes: lots of people use both english and their native language. 
<robotgeek> frank_: can you add that in? i am not sure of the instructions? we can then probably move keyboard stuff into one section later
<frank_> robotgeek: ok. where should I add it?
<robotgeek> frank_: just add it say, before skim. we'll move everything together anyways (there are about 5 keyboard layout things)
<robotgeek> err, keyboard related things
<frank_> robotgeek: ok. Il do it right now
<robotgeek> frank_: thanks, much appreciated :)
<frank_> robotgeek: no problem ;)
<robotgeek> brb
<trappist> who owns the installation guide?
<Burgwork> trappist, currently nobody
<trappist> oh.
<trappist> we have a couple of fill-in-the-blank paragraphs at the bottom of it.
<trappist> something about how big to make your swap partition.  I'd fill them in, but the guide to that point uses different swap space rules of thumb than I was raised with, so I'm not sure what the author intended there.
<Burgwork> trappist, we now have two installers
<Burgwork> but in general, if you want to work on it, go nuts
<trappist> aight
<trappist> is the other (graphical?) installer documented?
<Burgwork> ask Kamion
<trappist> k
<frank_> robotgeek: almost done. how do I write the & ?
<robotgeek> frank_: &amp;
<frank_> robotgeek: and what is the system tray called in kde? where the small icons are?
<frank_> robotgeek: I see it's just called system tray ok
<robotgeek> system tray :)
#ubuntu-doc 2006-04-11
<frank_> robotgeek: ok. I can send the patch to mailing list
<frank_> robotgeek: which ever you prefer
<robotgeek> frank_: send it to list (public record of contribution)
<frank_> robotgeek: ok
<robotgeek> hey unclocked Kyral 
<Kyral> huh?
<Kyral> unclocked?
<robotgeek> uncloaked, err
<Kyral> yah
<Kyral> I forgot to set my IDENTIFY command to fire off
<Kyral> hmm
<Kyral> this Beyond patchset seems a little more...snappy
<frank_> robotgeek: I don't know if the patch made it to the list. I just changed email
<robotgeek> frank_: did you subscribe and stuff?
<frank_> robotgeek: well I had subscribed before. I changed my email address in my existing account. I don't know if that worked
<robotgeek> frank_: probably not, don't get anything here :)
<frank_> robotgeek: ok I just got the confirmation email. it just took a while :)
<frank_> robotgeek: I can send it again. It might double post
<robotgeek> frank_: heh, double post then and keep it under 40 kb :)
<frank_> robotgeek: this time the patch should make it to the list. anything else I can do?
<robotgeek> frank_: just look at the guide as a whole, and see if we can polish in any way?
<robotgeek> frank_: havent received it yet
<LaserJock> Burgwork: I'm taking care of Red_Herring ;-)
<frank_> robotgeek: it should have worked.
* robotgeek should have taken care of Red_Herring
<Burgwork> LaserJock, with a bat I hope :)
<robotgeek> frank_: maybe cc to me?
<robotgeek> or resend, err
<trappist> I've got a validation failure from an xref to another file in the same manual.  how should a file know to include (or parse?) another file to resolve xrefs?
<robotgeek> trappist: try to validate the main document
<trappist> in the packaging guide that should be packagingguide.xml?
<robotgeek> trappist: yup
<trappist> gotcha.  that validates.
<frank_> robotgeek: ok I sent it again with you as cc
<robotgeek> frank_: heh, did not get it. is it working :)
<frank_> robotgeek: I have no idea. yahoo is lazy
<robotgeek> frank_: okay, i guess i'll just wait
<frank_> robotgeek: If I proof read another section, will you have time to incude it? how hard is the deadline?
<robotgeek> frank_: yes, we'll have time
<frank_> robotgeek: which one should I do?
<robotgeek> frank_: did you find any changes to make. 
* robotgeek needs to get coffee (productivity is going down)
<LaserJock> trappist: wow, you're touching my baby ;-)
<frank_> robotgeek: I'm sure there are small things anywhere... I could do common-tasks
<robotgeek> frank_: cool
<LaserJock> Burgwork: hmmm, I think I should have taken your suggestion :s
<Burgwork> LaserJock, indeed
<robotgeek> frank_: still not received, is this from your original email address?
<frank_> robotgeek: I tried from both
<robotgeek> frank_: finally, recvd
<robotgeek> frank_: mind if i add your name to the list of contributors?
<frank_> sure: Franois LeBlanc
<robotgeek> frank_: will be up in next patchset :)
<frank_> robotgeek: cool
<avoine> if i want to help translate xml file like the Ubuntu Start Guide i have to search it in rosetta or he is somewhere else?
<Burgwork> hmm, this lulu thing is getting bigger than I expected
<robotgeek> avoine: it will be uploaded to rosetta shortly
<jjesse> avoine: the docs haven't been uploaded yet
<avoine> ok
<frank_> robotgeek: it's taking time but I'm progressing. when do you need it for?
<robotgeek> frank_: jjesse http://www.robotgeek.org/kubuntu/ch05.html
<robotgeek> frank_: official deadline is half an hour away, maybe by tommorow?
<frank_> robotgeek: oh. I'll finish now. but not in half an hour ;)
<robotgeek> frank_: how is the reorg, look betteR?
<jjesse> frank__: don't worry i' should have a bunch comming in tomorrow when i get to work and have a high speed connection
<frank_> robotgeek: it looks better yeah
<jjesse> robotgeek`did you update the desktopgudie for add/remove programs?
<robotgeek> jjesse: yes
<jjesse> do you like it?  i perfer adept and apt or it
<robotgeek> i just use apt, it does look easy to use
<jjesse> i struggle with it, i can't find all packages for some reason
<robotgeek> jjesse: http://doc.ubuntu.com/kubuntu/desktopguide/C/ch03s02.html 
<robotgeek> jjesse: we can mention it, and mornfall can fix bugs across time :)
<jjesse> robotgeek: but i'm struggeling describing it for my chapter:(
<robotgeek> jjesse: i wrote something in about 15 minutes, copied over some stuff from UDG too :)
<frank_> is there a shockwave plugin for konqueror? I don't think so
<robotgeek> frank_: doesn't flashplayer isntall that?
<frank_> robotgeek: there is a flash player. but some shockwave things are impossible to play in linux I think.
<robotgeek> frank_: hmm, okay. 
<robotgeek> frank_: if you make the change in the patch, i'll commit tommorow?
<frank_> robotgeek: ok.
<robotgeek> frank_: great, i gotta run now. cook food :)
<frank_> robotgeek: ok ;)
<frank_> WINE is not an emulator, but what is it exactly? in 2 words
<jjesse> winows emulator
<frank_> no: Wine Is Not an Emulator
<jsgotangco> reverse_engineered_windows_subsystem
<jsgotangco> hah 1 word
<frank_> jsgotangco: lol. yeah
<jsgotangco> but yeah its not a windows emulator per se
<trappist> it's a win32 api implementation for unix
<trappist> it's an emulator by the dictionary definition of the word, but not the traditional IT definition, in that it doesn't emulate hardware
<jsgotangco> trappist, that's 7 words
<jsgotangco> heh
<LaserJock> trappist: ping?
<trappist> pong
<LaserJock> trappist: did you just fix grammar/spelling on the packaging guide?
<trappist> not all of it, but yeah
<trappist> why?
<trappist> I'm on bugs.xml now
<LaserJock> I'm just trying to get a run down of what you are doing
<trappist> how do you mean?
<LaserJock> why did you change the appendix to a chapter?
<LaserJock> doh, need to read the next commit ;-)
<trappist> I changed that back - it didn't validate, but then I learned to validate the parent instead, so I changed it b... yeah :)
<LaserJock> did you have problems with indentation?
<trappist> here and there, maybe.  I wasn't aiming to mess with it, since afaik we have no standards for it, but I tried to keep it sorta consistent.
<LaserJock> well, I've had a hard time with consistency so any help is apprecitated. I'm still trying to learn how to use vim :-)
<LaserJock> and I copy-n-paste from other people sometimes
<trappist> it makes it a little easier if you have set ai, set ts=4 and set sw=4 in your .vimrc
<trappist> for copy and paste:
<trappist> put set pastetoggle=<F12> in your .vimrc, and hit F12 in insert mode, and vim will stop messing with your indentation until you hit F12 again
<LaserJock> do you use tabs or spaces, generally?
<trappist> tabs
<LaserJock> hmm, it seems like lots of problems with commas
<trappist> yeah :)
<LaserJock> I haven't had to remember so much grammar since grade school :-)
<frank_> when I build the desktop guide, can I make something other than html?  like a pdf?
<LaserJock> frank_: pdf's are a bit harder because you need some non-free stuff
<frank_> LaserJock: really? I thought pdf was an open format
<frank_> well postscript then
<LaserJock> it is, but the app that is used to create them isn't exactly
<LaserJock> fop is what you need
<frank_> what is the app that makes pdfs? just curious
<LaserJock> http://xmlgraphics.apache.org/fop/
<LaserJock> if you look at ubuntu/Makefile there is a rule to make pdfs
<LaserJock> but you need fop.sh I think
<frank_> LaserJock: ok
<frank_> LaserJock: so this uses fop to make pdfs but ghostscript can make them completely freely, right? just not in this case
<LaserJock> frank_: it is more involved than just "making a pdf"
<frank_> LaserJock: ok I admit my ignorance ;)
<LaserJock> frank_: I think the only reason we don't have fop is because it is java-based which is a problem for Ubuntu since Sun's Java can't be included in the repos
<frank_> LaserJock: well once gij get better, maybe it will be
<LaserJock> frank_: lol, I don't know much about it myself
<trappist> I think it's because it's part of the ant project, which has an iffy license
<LaserJock> oh, well that could be too
<LaserJock> anyway, I think you can download if from http://www.wmwweb.com/apache/xmlgraphics/fop/
<LaserJock> and then you can just run "make pdf"
<LaserJock> I'm trying it myself right now
<frank_> did my patch  [patch]  proofread common-tasks.xml for kubuntu desktop guide   make it to the list this time?
<frank_> my new yahoo mail account doesn't seem to be sending anything
<jsgotangco> frank_, there's no patch sent to the list yet
<frank_> gah...
<LaserJock> trappist: thanks :-)
<LaserJock> trappist: have you gone through the whole thing?
<trappist> on the last file now
<trappist> ubuntu.xml
<LaserJock> great
<LaserJock> now I hope I don't mess up what you have done
<trappist> heh
<LaserJock> frank_: yeah! I see an email ;-)
<frank_> there! gmail can actually send emails. My new yahoo.ca account couldn't :(
<frank_> can we see preliminary versions of the Official Ubuntu Book?
<Kyral> All Members should get a free copy :P
<jjesse> then how would they make money?
<jjesse> :)
<Kyral> How many members are there compared to users? :P
<LaserJock> jjesse: I was just going to say that ;-)
<Kyral> Meh :P
<jsgotangco> heh
<Kyral> It was an idea lol
<jsgotangco> if canonical can send a million cds to anyone, it won't go down the drain sending 100+ copies of the book to the 100+ members listed in LP lol
<jjesse> don't forget prentince hall needs some money
<Kyral> yup yup
<jsgotangco> jjesse, im sure you're very much aware that the book publisher sends a good number of books to the author for free
<jjesse> jsgotangco: yeah i know
<jsgotangco> its up to the author to give them away or sell them at a lower price
<jsgotangco> even recording artists have the same scheme
<jsgotangco> btw you guys might be intested at this
<jsgotangco> http://oss.mri.co.jp/i2oss/
<jsgotangco> most of whats included in the docs were results from the experiment last year
<trappist> LaserJock: got a sec?
<LaserJock> sure do
<trappist> need to know what you're meaning to say here, re: merging with debian...
<trappist> The merging process involves looking at the changes to both the Debian and Ubuntu source packages and determining.
<trappist> determining what?
<LaserJock> what has changed
<trappist> great! thanks
<LaserJock> what stuff is specific to Ubuntu
<LaserJock> so when we go to sync from Debian and there is an existing Ubuntu version of the package there are two options
<trappist> right.  I follow you now.
<LaserJock> 1) Debian has made all the changes we did and we can use there packages directly. We call that a sync
<LaserJock> 2) We need to carry our changes to the new packages. That is a merge
<trappist> right.  got that from the previous section.
<trappist> s/section/paragraph/
<LaserJock> k
<jjesse> what's the address for reporting bugs again?  launchpad.net/malone correct?
<trappist> yeah
<LaserJock> it kinda depends
<jjesse> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+bugs  ?
<trappist> LaserJock: did you happen to check with barry defreese whether he's ok with having his email addy in these docs (as an example)?
<trappist> do you think I should change it to something made up?
<jjesse> make it billg@microsoft.com :)
<trappist> that works :)
<LaserJock> trappist: umm, well that doesn't work so well
<trappist> why's that?
<LaserJock> I used the actual diffs
<trappist> right, but is that necessary, do you think?
<LaserJock> maybe not, but his email is all over the package anyway. I can ask him I suppose
<trappist> even if you're hoping for the user to follow along and get more or less the same results as in the doc, I don't think anyone will get lost if something like that is altered.
<LaserJock> I hadn't really thought about it
<LaserJock> I've just been using verbatim what you get
<trappist> I'd html-entity-ize it to keep it from the spam spiders, but I'm pretty sure the html conversion will undo that
<robotgeek> frank23: same as frank_ ?
<LaserJock> trappist: well, it can't be any worse than it already is but we can certainly change it, to be safe
<trappist> LaserJock: I'll leave it alone for now.  I figure he won't mind - his email address gets plenty of exposure as it is.
<trappist> but it'd probably be nice to check with him
<LaserJock> it really doesn't hurt to change it, I was just using the diff's verbatim
<trappist> aight
<robotgeek> trappist: who, billy G?
<trappist> heh
<LaserJock> i'd prefer not him
<LaserJock> he might claim the packaging guide in a few years ;-)
<robotgeek> it would be funny!
<trappist> LaserJock: I was going with that for the humor angle, but since it's your doc I'm going to leave it as-is so you can put what you like there
<trappist> if 6 months from now bill gates is regarded as kindly as hitler, I don't want it to be my fault that he's in our docs :)
* robotgeek bows to klippers awesomeness
<robotgeek> cptn@killklippy.com
<trappist> robotgeek: http://linuxkungfu.org/images/shots/?image=39
<robotgeek> trappist: http://vigor.sourceforge.net/
<LaserJock> ok, I'm locking myself in the computer room. I have to finish this tonight :/
<trappist> robotgeek: that's awesome.
<trappist> LaserJock: yeah I just had to tell my baby sister to "kick rocks, I got a string freeze"
* LaserJock gets out his vim cheat sheet
<LaserJock> hmm, how do you get folding to work?
<robotgeek> LaserJock: zM
<trappist> depends on how you want it to work.  I say set foldmethod=marker and use {{{ and }}} foldmarkers
<jjesse> robotgeek: i looked through the add/remove programs section of desktop guide and it lokos great
<frank23> robotgeek: yeah
<robotgeek> jjesse: cool, thanks
<robotgeek> frank23: heh, confusing!
<jjesse> also updated release notes to match the new author guidelines and also about kubuntu guide... will commit tomorrow at work
<jjesse> also about ubuntu had references to bugzilla which i changed and will comitt tomorrow at work
<robotgeek> jjesse: good work!
<jjesse> also finished kubuntu chapter for the book... hopefully not too much will change
<robotgeek> jjesse: always worried!
<jjesse> robotgeek: things look great good job
<trappist> I'm done with the packaging guide.  any votes on what should be proofread next, or should I just keep going in pseudorandom order?
<robotgeek> jjesse: ty
<trappist> (I'm gonna be a linux guru by the time I'm done proofreading all this)
<LaserJock> trappist: did you get an overall feel for the difficulty level?
<frank23> robotgeek: I can do more proofreading tomorrow for kdg if it's not too late
<robotgeek> frank23: that would be great
<robotgeek> frank23: since i am guessing that most of the changes will be minor, i don't think there will be an issue
<frank23> robotgeek: ok. Yeah I won't add any sections or anything
<LaserJock> robotgeek: what does your .vim/xmlfold.vim file look like?
<robotgeek> frank23: thanks! i am too sapped right now to think
<robotgeek> LaserJock: i think its a plugin i got from vim.sf.net
<LaserJock> k
<robotgeek> LaserJock: http://robotgeek.org/dotfiles/vim
<LaserJock> oh, nice. thanks
<trappist> LaserJock: yeah, and a great overview of the process.  I think I'm right smack in the middle of your target audience.  Great doc!
<trappist> robotgeek: tomorrow's not too late to get some proofreading in?  I don't have to stay up all night?
<LaserJock> trappist: it flowed ok? It has been pretty patchwork for me so far trying to get it put together
<robotgeek> trappist: well, most of my major changes are already in. minor changes are ok, as long as they don't change structure maybe (not affect translators)
<trappist> LaserJock: yeah I think it's well laid out and has a good narrative flow for a tech doc
<LaserJock> ok, great. thanks for checking it over. I'm just starting in this whole doc writing thing.
<trappist> robotgeek: right, that's what I was wondering - string freeze doesn't necessarily affect proofreading changes then?
<trappist> LaserJock: the language is a little less formal in some places than in some of the rest of the docs, but I think that's a good thing.
<LaserJock> trappist: I think those are usually ones that I got from somebody else. I tried to go over them to keep a consistent voice
<trappist> yeah I think you pulled that off nicely
<robotgeek> LaserJock: if i manage to package stuff nicely, it will be thanks to you :)
<LaserJock> well, then you can thank the MOTU community. I have really learned a lot through this process
<jjesse> wow my brain is fried, have a good night i'm off to bed :)
<LaserJock> cya jjesse 
<frank23> robotgeek:  60 % Nerd, 30% Geek, 26% Dork  hehe
<robotgeek> frank23: heh
<robotgeek> frank23: lots of blog there :)
<jsgotangco> hrrmmmm
<robotgeek> hey jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> that comment on bluefish is wrong
<jsgotangco> bluefish can do docbook
<jsgotangco> it has docbook tags built in and has tag completion
<robotgeek> jsgotangco: wiki :)
* jsgotangco lazy
<robotgeek> that's why it helps to be a vim "enthusiast"
<LaserJock> I like bluefish for a gui xml editor
<LaserJock> well, I guess that is second to gvim ;-)
<robotgeek> :)
<jsgotangco> its fast if it only validated :/
<LaserJock> hmm, that would be a nice key mapping to add to the .vimrc
<robotgeek> LaserJock: :)
<LaserJock> a key to run ~/ubuntu-doc/validate.sh
<LaserJock> and svn commit
<LaserJock> and ...
<LaserJock> arrghh, how do I put in a ; ?
<highvoltage> you press : without pressing shift :)
<highvoltage> ( lame joke ^^^^^ )
* LaserJock whaps highvoltage over the head with the Docbook Definitive Guide
<highvoltage> ouch! how many trees did you kill to print that!?
<LaserJock> lol
<LaserJock> you would think they would have a list of those somewhere
<highvoltage> list of trees that were killed?
<LaserJock> lol, no
<LaserJock> usually they tell you how to get the characters that have special meaning
<LaserJock> crap, I can find how to do < and & but not ;
<Madpilot> hi all
<LaserJock> doh, it wasn't complaining *about* the ; , but about the *lack of* ;  :(
<LaserJock> trappist: my new name and email addy are : Captain Packager <packager@coolness.com>
<LaserJock> btw, hi Madpilot 
<mdke> morning
<manicka> afternoon :)
<mdke> :)
<mdke> how's it going in doc-land?
<rob> hello
<mdke> I see trappist has proof read the entire svn repository :)
<rob> very nice!
<mdke> how are we looking on the old freeze?
<mdke> couple of tweaks still needed on the desktop guide, I think
<Madpilot> my poor inbox has been flooded with commit reports :P
<rob> mdke, any more thoughts on publishing the desktop guide?
<mdke> rob, I'll mail about it.
<rob> ok 
<mdke> bottom line is that I'm sorry if Corey is embarassed by the guide, but i think he will be equally embarassed by publishing the guide online and in the distro
<rob> it generally will only be available online unless someone comes up with the fee to get an ISBN number
<mdke> I certainly don't think it would be a good idea to do that
<mdke> Madpilot, :) I'm gonna have a last look at the DG and try and sort out 3d graphics, and dvd. Anything else needs looking at?
<Madpilot> not that I can think of - not that we can get done before the freeze, anyway... ;)
<rob> mdke, I think his feelings are somewhat irrelivent due to the obvious conflict of intrest he has here
<Madpilot> btw, the ATI 3d stuff should work, it's identical to the Breezy info and it doesn't look like the packages have changed much/at all
<mdke> rob, I don't think so.
<rob> s/irrelivent/irrelevant
<Burgundavia> rob: there is conflict on interest
<LaserJock> mdke: so when is the official doc freeze?
<Burgundavia> rob: is no, I should say
<Burgundavia> rob: I am not getting royalties from the book, so it does not matter how many copies sell
<mdke> LaserJock, about 8 hours ago. But we're quite flexible. I'll certainly check if there is anything each author wants to do still on each guide before making translations available
<rob> Burgundavia, but you are being paid for writing it..
<Burgundavia> rob: as are a whole bunch of other people in the doc team
<rob> hence, conflict of interest
<Burgundavia> if I was getting royalties, maybe
<LaserJock> mdke: how long do you think we could realistically push the packaging guide and how much can we change after we give it to the translation teams?
<rob> from what I've seen, the only people vocal about it who are being paid in any way is yourself Burgundavia 
<Burgundavia> rob: that I am working on the ubuntu book is completely not relevant to why I am objecting to the Lulu thing
<mdke> rob, I don't think it's useful to accuse Corey of being biased, we need to try and answer his complaints. Don't forget the code of conduct tells us to avoid discussions which are personal
<mdke> LaserJock, I don't know. what's the status?
<LaserJock> I can see both sides, I personally don't think the problem is as big as Corey thinks but I think it is a concern to think about
<LaserJock> s/is/isn't/
<mdke> if we were gonna sell the book, like on Amazon or something, I would agree with Corey that there is a conflict issue with the official book
<mdke> but I don't think we should, this is simply something someone reading the book can do to get a hard copy without printing it themselves
<Burgundavia> how is lulu different from amazon?
<mdke> Burgundavia, people go to amazon to buy books
<mdke> they don't browse lulu looking for books
<LaserJock> mdke: well, my main concern is getting some review from the dev community. I think I can finish tomorrow but I'd like to at least make sure I don't have any major policy violoations ;-)
<mdke> they go there if they've read the book, and read in it that they can get a printed copy there
<rob> sorry, I'm getting pulled away to deal with a bot net, I'm be back in a sec
<mdke> ok
<Burgundavia> they why don't we trial with the packaging guide?
<mdke> LaserJock, ok, in that case I would say, we'll upload the translation tomorrow when its done, and you can change things if necessary at a later time. But try and get that done ASAP
<mdke> Burgundavia, I think we should trial with all the guides
<mdke> including (complete) translations
<Burgundavia> ahh
<LaserJock> mdke: yeah, I'm really sorry. My boss has really been cracking the whip :(
<mdke> LaserJock, np
<mdke> Burgundavia, to be honest, even if the only people to buy a copy are the occasional one of us, I won't be concerned at all
<LaserJock> mdke: and to be honest, I expected more help :(
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> LaserJock, you've done an incredible job dude
<mdke> we've been lucky to have you
<LaserJock> well, this is my first doc project and I somewhat underestimated (suprise) how long it would take 
<mdke> incredible how these translators work, I've got 3 translations for the ff start page already
<Burgundavia> LaserJock: I have certainly learned that with the book
<LaserJock> Burgundavia: really? cool
<LaserJock> I had some interest today for a printed packaging guide
<Burgundavia> good docs take a long time to do
<LaserJock> I think if I continue working on it (with the community) maybe by Dapper+1 it would be publishable on lulu
<Burgundavia> LaserJock: something unique like the packaging guide, it would be nice to get it done earlier on lulu
<LaserJock> Burgundavia: I agree, but I'd probably want to make sure it is good ;-)
<LaserJock> Burgundavia: and I have to play a little catch up
<mdke> LaserJock, I don't understand why people feel that to make these hard copies available, the documents have to be a better quality than they do when published online or in the distro
<mdke> its not like this book will be marketed, as I said
<mdke> it will simply be people who read the book, like it, and are prepared to pay the costs of production.
<LaserJock> hmm, yes I suppose
<LaserJock> well, then I have at least 3 people that wanted print copies of the packaging guide today ;-)
<mdke> if the Desktop guide was as bad as Burgundavia thinks, he should be embarassed that its in the distro, and on the website
<mdke> right corey?
<Burgundavia> mdke: to a certain extent, but people don't usually compare on screen docs to books
<Madpilot> Did anyone apply Andreas Lloyd's UDG patch?
<LaserJock> Burgundavia: I agree, but in this case I think we have a pretty good set of docs. And if we market it as a "printed copy of the shipped doc" then it makes sense
<Burgundavia> hmm
<LaserJock> I can see if we were charging $40USD for it or something
<mdke> Madpilot, no, I'll definitely have a look at it later on
<jsgotangco> hmm
<Burgundavia> LaserJock: I want us to make a big splash of having a book, draw attention to ourselves
<jsgotangco> what does that make us of mgalvin and jeffsch writing a book for manning?
<Madpilot> mdke, I'll have a look at it now if it's unapplied - just lost track in the great flood of commit emails :P
<Burgundavia> in order to do that well, we need a good product to back it iup
<mdke> Burgundavia, if that happens then it will be a wholly different thing. marketing, selling the book in stores, etc
<mdke> this is simply, "wanna copy but can't print? you can pay the costs of production"
<mdke> jsgotangco, is that project still going?
<mdke> Madpilot, okay!
<jsgotangco> mdke, of course
<mdke> blimey, it's been a while
<jsgotangco> mdke, we're focused on ubuntu server though
<mdke> are you still involved?
<Burgundavia> ok, as long as we are not trumpeting all over the place
<jsgotangco> mdke, we're not really vocal about it though
<jsgotangco> but we already have a good manuscript going
<mdke> cool
<jsgotangco> and already on 1st review
<LaserJock> but once we started the lulu thing then maybe it would tend to go more towards the doc team publishing the *big* book
<jsgotangco> we're not really on a mad rush to get it published in time of june but it would be nice
<LaserJock> if we could show the lulu books to a publisher for instance, I would think that would go a long ways
<jsgotangco> i dont really mind having lulu on board to those docs
<LaserJock> it really would be nice to have the offical doc team involved to some degree with offical books (seems logical to me)
<mdke> Madpilot, I got an answer from one of the lead developers on the 3d graphics section, so I'll write that up too.
<mdke> LaserJock, I agree. approaching individuals (for writing and review) is not really the same thing
<jsgotangco> (actually anyone can do it)
<mdke> jsgotangco, exactly, I suggested it to my flatmate who is writing a book for fun :)
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jsgotangco> i actually bought a book there
<jsgotangco> the world's ugliest dog
<jsgotangco> hahaha
<mdke> awww
<mdke> i saw a picture of that guy
<LaserJock> me too
<jsgotangco> i think linspire also prints in lulu
<jsgotangco> or is it xandros
<jsgotangco> hmm
<mdke> jsgotangco, there doesn't appear to be a tl localisation for firefox. is that right?
<jsgotangco> mdke, we have one being done and for review
<jsgotangco> i actually passed your email to the local list
<Burgundavia> LaserJock: mdke, I agree with you. We will be involved in maintaining the book however
<mdke> jsgotangco, no, i mean there is no mozilla-firefox-locale-tl package
<LaserJock> Burgundavia: was that ever discussed with the doc team? (I don't know)
<mdke> the translation won't work without one
<jsgotangco> mdke, no, we have a pretty bad gnome and mozilla community locally
<mdke> Burgundavia, LaserJock has a point, how do you know we'll be involved maintaining the book?
<mdke> jsgotangco, ah, shame. maybe pitti can do one for you. I noticed he added a bn_IN locale yesterday
<jsgotangco> mdke, can it be created or it'll break upstream?
<Burgundavia> LaserJock: it is under our licenses, with the copyright being held by Canonical
<mdke> jsgotangco, I don't know how it works
<jsgotangco> ahh k i'll ask pitti then
<Burgundavia> the idea is that original authors would have first refusal if their was money to update the book
<mdke> good plan
* jsgotangco looks for the langpacks pimp
<Burgundavia> if needed
<LaserJock> I see
<mdke> jsgotangco, https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/mozilla-firefox-locale-all/+bug/35704
<Burgundavia> does everybody think I should put an item in teh FAQ on the website about the Python stuff installed by default?
<LaserJock> well, my main concern is that this book writing business seems to give the impression that Canonical doesn't really care or plan to include the doc team.
<LaserJock> I don't really know if that is true
<jsgotangco> mdke, ekkk a separate xpi job that's a bit hairy and dont think i have time to do that
<mdke> jsgotangco, yeah.
<Burgundavia> I get the impression that canonical was approached by prentice hall
<mdke> Burgundavia, absolutely yes
<mdke> (re: python)
<mdke> jsgotangco, maybe someone else does?
<LaserJock> so then it is basically Prentice Hall's baby (I'm totaly ignorant of the publishing business)
<LaserJock> and they decided who would write the doc, etc. ?
<mdke> -> afk
<jsgotangco> mdke, like i said we have a pretty crap mozilla community here i'll see what i can do
<Burgundavia> LaserJock: prentice hall is exciting about he educational opportunties are ubuntu
<Burgundavia> debra has worked with Mako before, and I believe Jono as wel
<Burgundavia> debra is my editor at ph
<jsgotangco> who got an email from debra anyway? (raise hand)
* jsgotangco raises hand
<jsgotangco> ummm
<rob> heh.
<jsgotangco> tee heee
<rob> still away
* jsgotangco declined it anyway have too much work
<Burgundavia> jjesse, krystic also got them
<jsgotangco> but jjesse is in a writing job
<LaserJock> ok, so maybe I was just too far out of the loop on this (understandably)
<Burgundavia> I told debra about the manning book, so she may not have emailed them
<Burgundavia> seveas and whiprush have been doing some editing/proofing
<jsgotangco> no worries the manning book is entirely server focused
<Burgundavia> it was part of a freeranging talk about other ubuntu books
<LaserJock> well, I'm excited about the book. I haven't seen any content (or table of contents) but I know the authors so I'm pretty confident it will rock :-)
<LaserJock> the Official book that is
<Burgundavia> I wish I could write as well as Jono and Mako
* LaserJock wishes he could write faster
<jsgotangco> are desktop books easier to write?
<jsgotangco> i wonder
<mdke> Burgundavia, you're as good a writer as Jono
<mdke> actually, I prefer your writing
<mdke> at least judging by what I've read on the book
<mdke> none of us could ever touch mako though ;)
<jsgotangco> i thought they should read consistently
<Burgundavia> yes
<mdke> jsgotangco, yeah, that's the main difficulty with the book, in my opinion
<jsgotangco> yeah
<mdke> or with any book, that isn't written by one person
<jsgotangco> on our side, we have jeffsch making things consistent
<Burgundavia> actually, I haven't even seen a complete copy myself, so it is hard
<jsgotangco> but he's been busy lately 
<Burgundavia> jono has been the primary author, really
<jsgotangco> how do you collaborate? svn?
<Burgundavia> email
<jsgotangco> errr you email the stuff???
<Burgundavia> yep
<jsgotangco> that's pretty messy imo
<Burgundavia> yep
<Burgundavia> what are you guying writing in?
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, what we have been doing is very much the same with docteam
<jsgotangco> except we do it in ODT
<jsgotangco> but the toolchain is the same
<Burgundavia> ah, we do it odt and doc
<jsgotangco> svn+mailman+trac
<Burgundavia> prentice hall is setup to deal with doc
<jsgotangco> the *.doc is a necessary evil because of the printers
<LaserJock> what, no LaTeX?
<jsgotangco> LaserJock, yeah
<Burgundavia> nope
<Burgundavia> only geek publishers like OReilly go for latex
<jsgotangco> LaserJock, its a hard reality of the printing industry
<LaserJock> gosh, I have to use latex for all my publications
<jsgotangco> LaserJock, eventually, those go into Frame Maker
<Burgundavia> any, I need to sleep
<Burgundavia> night all
<LaserJock> lucky guy, he doesn't have a doc to finish ;p
<jsgotangco> lol he has the editor's wrath to take care of though
<LaserJock> yeah, I just have mdke to worry about ;-)
<jsgotangco> yeah mdke's hair is to thick we need to make a wee bit thinner after dapper
<jsgotangco> if we manage to have mdke have a receeding hairline by dapper+1 we are successful
<LaserJock> I know mine is, no joke
<LaserJock> I wonder if it is Ubuntu
<LaserJock> or grad school
<jsgotangco> LaserJock, check this out
<jsgotangco> http://oss.mri.co.jp/i2oss/index.html
<poningru> LaserJock: what doc do you have to finish?
<jsgotangco> 335 slides
<LaserJock> the Ubuntu Packaging Guide
<poningru> ooh 
<mdke> jsgotangco, haha. it's started receding already
<poningru> that would be most helpful
<poningru> you are talking about the motu packaging guides right?
<LaserJock> well, it isn't specific to MOTU but yeah
<LaserJock> it is on doc.ubuntu.com
<LaserJock> if you want to have a look
<poningru> right
<rob> ok, back for a minute now
<rob> mdke: I beleave its unprofessional to be saying the Desktop Guide is 'full of holes', not up to scratch for publishing etc etc when one is being paid to effectively write a rival book
<rob> bah..
<rob> ok, what was I saying..
<rob> yes, besides as a few people have pointed out it will only be available through lulu
<rob> I feel its somewhat an insult to the Documentation Team that the whole team wasn't involved at least in some small way in the creation of an official book
<poningru> whats the license going to be on that book?
<rob> ie This is the Official Ubuntu Book.. which didn't have any real community input.
<Madpilot> poningru, I understand that after "the book" is released, it'll be dual CC:BY:SA & GFDL, like the existing docteam stuff
<rob> regardless of the fact it is being released with an open license the Ubuntu Documentation Team should have had input from the start
<poningru> sweet
<rob> where are the royalties going, btw?
<poningru> rob: thats true, but hey as long as it does good
<poningru> ...
<rob> ok, gotta go, back soon
<Madpilot> rob, not sure there are going to be royalties - the authors won't be getting any, from what Corey's told me
<jsgotangco> there are no royalties
<LaserJock> rob: I believe many if not all of the writer have waved royalties  but I"m not sure
<jsgotangco> the authors are paid up front
<rob> super.. 
<LaserJock> jeeze, I've got the memory leak from hell :(
<mdke> Madpilot, I'm gonna try and do DVDs today too
<Madpilot> mdke, excellent
<mdke> they will work in gstreamer with the -ugly plugin, but without menu and subtitle support
<mdke> but gxine works, according to corey, so we'll use that as the primary player, I'd think
<jsgotangco> wow didnt know -ugly had dvd codecs
<jsgotangco> i always thought it was mostly audio
<mdke> yes, it used to be gstreamer0.8-dvd
<Madpilot> Corey & Daniel both mentioned that gxine had some sort of colour-shifting error, though
<mdke> Madpilot, he reported yesterday that it worked. Dunno what that colour problem was
<mdke> ok
* mdke settles down into 3d graphics
<jsgotangco> what with it?
<jsgotangco> the open source drivers rarely work
<jsgotangco> good luck getting quake 3 running on nv or ati
<Madpilot> really? I've got an ATI 9600XT 256Mb, and fglrx has always worked flawlessly
<Madpilot> unless they've gotten worse for Dapper, which sounds unlikely
<mdke> they should be better
<mdke> I'm told lots of the commands in the guide aren't needed
<Madpilot> mdke, speaking of which, want to yank the Quake 3 section of the Gaming chapter? it's a bit of an oddity, and probably doesn't have enough info to actually get Quake running on Ubuntu...
<jsgotangco> Madpilot, that's a binary driver right?
<jsgotangco> if you're using a binary driver it shouldnt be an issue
<Madpilot> jsgotangco, fglrx? yeah, it's the non-free one, which AFAIK we recommend in the UDG
<jsgotangco> Madpilot, that should work
<Madpilot> jsgotangco, ah, you were talking about the opensource drivers - my bad, didn't actually read what you wrote :P
<jsgotangco> Madpilot, hehe xorg gets a ton of bugs about it
<jsgotangco> Madpilot, there's also with Q3 being open source, but people mistake it so
<jsgotangco> the engine is open, but the visuals/artwork aren't
<jsgotangco> that's why there's no apt-get quake3 tee hheee
<Madpilot> yeah, I've seen a number of people in #ubuntu ask why "the free Quake isn't working" :P
<mdke> Madpilot, whatever you think. I have no idea about quake
<Madpilot> mdke, nuke it
<jsgotangco> yeah nuke it
<jsgotangco> i insisted on nuking it on kdg
<mdke> ok, shall I do it?
<mdke> well, I have
<Madpilot> good
<mdke> do _any_ nvidia cards have 3d by default in ubuntu?
<mdke> i think the answer is no
<jsgotangco> none
<jsgotangco> it'll install `nv`
<jsgotangco> but `nvidia-glx` is supported
<Madpilot> likewise ATI cards - the default is mesa for them, I think
<mdke> lots of ati cards work, the older ones
<mdke> thanks
<Madpilot> they work w/ mesa, just not w/ 3d accel
<Madpilot> anyway, need sleep. later, all
<mdke> i have an ati chip which has 3d out of the box with radeon
<mdke> oops
<rob> back, finally
* bhuvan watched the cricket match. india won the series
<WaterSevenUb> hhm, where is the index.html for the firefox start page that people are supposed to translate?
<mdke> WaterSevenUb, attached to my email
<mdke> bhuvan, grrr
<bhuvan> mdke, :)
<WaterSevenUb> mdke, sorry for the stupidity but... nothing appears attached in my email client. Do you have it somewhere?
<mdke> WaterSevenUb, https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/trunk/ubuntu/browser-startpage/index.html
<mdke> what email client is that?
<WaterSevenUb> mdke, should we follow strictly that? For example, here http://www.ubuntu-pt.org/beta/web/ we have much more localized material on short ubuntu introduction.
<WaterSevenUb> webclient
<mdke> please follow the text strictly, you can localise links where appropriate (not the help.ubuntu.com link)
<mdke> small changes to the text might be appropriate for the sake of localisation
<WaterSevenUb> thank you for your help. Yeah, I agree with you.
<mdke> np
<mdke> bhuvan, is the server guide ready for freezing?
<bhuvan> mdke: yes; very few sections are yet to be reviewed. i'm certain it's ready
<bhuvan> mdke: whats your opinion ?
<mdke> bhuvan, I'm happy with your opinion :) I'll ask trappist what he thinks too, as he has read all of it, I think
<bhuvan> mdke, ok
<mdke> great, well done
<mdke> bhuvan, btw, the file system-conf.xml isn't used is it? Can I delete it?
<mdke> bhuvan_, :
<mdke>  [13:18:50]  < mdke> great, well done
<mdke>  [13:25:32]  < mdke> bhuvan, btw, the file system-conf.xml isn't used is it? Can I delete it?
<bhuvan_> mdke: 17:59 < bhuvan> mdke: yeah it can be removed
<mdke> thanks
<robotgeek> morning (evening) authors
<mdke> hiya
<robotgeek> mdke: will it be okay to correct minor errors with say, punctuation and  stuff later on?
<mdke> correct as many as you can now. if there are glaring ones later, we can correct them, but it may be best to leave them, depending on seriousness, and how far the translators have got
<robotgeek> mdke: well, frank23 will be sending me another patch, and jjesse too
<mdke> generally speaking, if typos are caught quite soon, it shouldnt be a big problem to correct them
<mdke> i'm happy to wait for their patches before starting the translators
<robotgeek> mdke: probably no typos (i went over it with aspell twice)
<mdke> cool, are the patches coming today? or later?
<robotgeek> it's the punctutation that will kill, i can't really see the mistakes!
<robotgeek> mdke: mostly today, i am guessing
<mdke> cool, no prob.
<robotgeek> mdke: how do you like it so far?
<mdke> i'm afraid I haven't read it
<robotgeek> mdke: hmm, okay :)
<robotgeek> mdke: http://yummy.printfu.org/
<mdke> cool
<mdke> is xchat-gnome configured to have an entry in the server list for Ubuntu which automatically joins #ubuntu? sorry to ask, haven't got a dapper system on me
<robotgeek> mdke: not sure, don't use gnome anymore. 
<robotgeek> mdke: i'll have some coffee and be back
* robotgeek installs xchat-gnome
<robotgeek> mdke: it won't connect to freenode for some reason
<mdke> robotgeek, does it try?
* mdke removes handhelds section from UDG, no idea if this works or not
<LaserJock> morning doc people
<trappist>  I'm removing the last 3 sections of the installguide, which are blank.  I might be able to fill them in, but I won't have time to do it properly before the freeze.  any objections, or any volunteers to fill in instructions for standalone, fileserver and service server?
<trappist> morning LaserJock 
<mdke> trappist, leave the installguide alone
<mdke> it's completely unmaintained, and there is an official one written by the main developer
<trappist> dangit.  can we get rid of unmaintained docs so I don't waste time on them?
<mdke> trappist, yes we can. But best to check the Projects wiki page
<mdke> trappist, how is the server guide? ready to go, do you think?
<trappist> also I just found 3 empty sections in the serverguide, for newsgroups, nntp and nntp-config.  I think it's safe to delete those.
<mdke> good idea
<robotgeek> mdke: sorry, was away. 
<trappist> I want to give it a good once-over first.  I just found that stuff with a grep.
<mdke> robotgeek, np, I sorted it. DG is now 100% complete
<mdke> trappist, ok, if you can do it today :)
<robotgeek> mdke: awesome. 
<trappist> mdke: can do
<mdke> trappist, rock
<robotgeek> mdke: jjesse will send in patch for handhelds in kdg :)
<mdke> robotgeek, i deleted a few crappy sections
<mdke> and the flash instructions needed an extra push
<robotgeek> mdke: hmm, flash. lemme svn up
<mdke> actually, i deleted a lot of crappy sections
<mdke> workarounds in breezy which are now fixed in dapper
<mdke> e.g. DMA
<robotgeek> no need to enable DMA?
<mdke> no, that's done by default now
<mdke> (if it works)
<robotgeek> mdke: hmm, i see a sudo update-flashplugin, i think that's might be needed even in kdg
<mdke> robotgeek, its for when you don't install the package from a terminal and don't get the ncurses debconf screen
<mdke> trappist, i'd say delete rather than comment out for the serverguide
<mdke> might muss up translations
<trappist> ok, I agree now that I think about it.  who runs an nntp server anymore anyway? :)
<robotgeek> mdke: hmm, definetly needed then :)
<LaserJock> yikes, it is cold this morning. My fingers don't want to type :(
<mdke> what else did i nuke?
<trappist> mdke: I'd like a review of the cups section by somebody who knows cups.  the cupsys package has changed pretty drastically since the printing section was written, and I'm not 100% sure I got all my changes right.
<mdke> robotgeek, lots of silly sections in the firefox thing about improving the speed
<mdke> robotgeek, some silly things in partitions which aren't needed too, iirc
<mdke> trappist, ok, dunno who tho. I doubt pitti has time
<robotgeek> mdke: don't have firefox in kdg
<trappist> mdke: what do you think about an invite on sounder to get reviews on the whole thing?  I think the binary video driver thing went over very well
<robotgeek> mdke: i'll make the change to flash plugin after frank23 sends his patch
<trappist> mdke: lots of people sure would like to help, and this would be a pretty easy way, and I think it could help us catch a lot of oopses.
<mdke> trappist, yeah, but it's very late
<trappist> might have to sort through some junk, but I'd appreciate the eyeballs.
<mdke> robotgeek, dunno if that flash thing works in konq, i tried in ff
<trappist> mdke: yeah, that's why I think it's a good idea - it's too late for us few to do it, but we'd get a lot more eyeballs and potentially a broader range of expertise if we solicited help.
<robotgeek> mdke: i verified yesterday with seth and kkhatman
<trappist> mdke: $10 says we'll be glad we did it - people will catch things we won't believe we didn't catch ourselves
<mdke> trappist, go ahead. CC: the -server list. I'd suggest keeping it to the sections you're not sure about though
<trappist> good call
<trappist> didn't know there was a -server list.
<trappist> how up to date is the serverguide on doc.ubuntu.com?
<mdke> I'll update it now
<mdke> only a few hours tho
<robotgeek> mdke: hold for my commit :)
<mdke> i didn't do kubuntu
<robotgeek> anyways, it will update on its own 
<robotgeek> alrite, food beckons. bbl
<mdke> robotgeek, done. Please make sure you check docs for validation before committing though (aboutkubuntu)
<mdke> jjesse, ^
<mdke> trappist, how about replacing things like: "To install apache2 you refer to <xref linkend="http-installation" /> section" with "To install apache2, refer to <xref linkend="http-installation" />"
<trappist> mdke: I'm actually on that now, along with removing leading the's from xrefs
<Burgwork> hmm, screenshot on boingboing is in that familiar shade of brown
<mdke> trappist, cool. sometimes yelp/html adds the word "section" automatically, so it's generally good to leave it out of the text
<trappist> ditto for "the"
<mdke> yep
<mdke> also, if you have time, i think filenames and directives could do with some styling
<mdke> <filename> and <emphasis> respectively, maybe
<trappist> yeah I've been poking at that stuff when I run across it - some of my serverguide additions could probably use it, since I didn't really get the hang of it until after I wrote em.
<trappist> dang it.  there's a lot of invalid links like that one, most pointing to other chapters, and changing those to xref doesn't help.  anybody happen to know how to xref to another chapter?
<mdke> <xref linkend="idofchapter"/>
<mdke> where <chapter id="idofchapter">
<mdke> you can do it with specific sections, or anything where you put an id
<LaserJock> mdke: is it ok if I add ~ 300K of files to the repo for the packaging guide?
<LaserJock> mdke: I have an example and the links just aren't working so I need to ship the files :(
<mdke> hmm
<LaserJock> or is there some place I can store them?
<mdke> website?
<LaserJock> maybe on doc.ubuntu.com?
<jsgotangco> ask for a freeze exception to mdke!!!!
* jsgotangco hides
<LaserJock> hmm, I could put them on the MOTU server
<trappist> mdke: I see.  the one I'm banging my head on is a <sect3 id="my xref">
<LaserJock> trappist: does it really have a space? maybe that would be a problem.
<trappist> nope
<LaserJock> hmm
<trappist> it creates a link to the current chapter with an anchor that doesn't exist in that chapter
<LaserJock> weird, sure there aren't two sections with the same id?
<trappist> positive
<mdke> trappist, even in the html?
<trappist> the link in question is creating-a-self-signed-certificate in the serverguide
<trappist> mdke: I'm using the html to validate the links
<trappist> so that's where I'm seeing the problem
<mdke> LaserJock, I think that might be a bit big for the package, given that its on the CD. not sure. 
<mdke> trappist, weird. try with a sect2
<trappist> hrm, it's not chapter I'm looking for... this is all the same chapter, but maybe a different sect1?
<trappist> mdke: how would I specify that in the xref?
<mdke> i'm not clear on what the problem is
<mdke> all you specify in the xref is the id tag
<mdke> wherever the id tag is, it should find it
<mdke> unless you're using yelp 2.12, which has a bug
<mdke> if the doc validates, there shouldn't be a problem
<trappist> the link labeled Creating a Self Signed Certificate in the email section of the serverguide does nothing in the html, because the target is in the apache2 section, and the href is to http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/serverguide/C/email-services.html#creating-a-self-signed-certificate
<LaserJock> mdke: np, I put them on http://tiber.tauware.de/~laserjock/ . That should be stable.
<trappist> bleh.  false alarm.  I was using the friggin doc.ubuntu.com to test my changes.
<trappist> sorry.
<LaserJock> lol
<mdke> np. LaserJock, our server should be available if you want it. 
<LaserJock> mdke: hmm, that would probably be better (naming wise). Where would I put them?
<mdke> put them in your home, and I'll move em over somewhere. 
<LaserJock> they are there
<LaserJock> all the xcdroast files
<robotgeek> mdke: hmm, sorry. forgot
<LaserJock> mdke: 6 total
<mdke> ok
<mdke> LaserJock, suggestions for a good url?
<robotgeek> hey jjesse 
<LaserJock> mdke: umm, not sure. can there be a packaging guide directory (in case I need more in the future)?
<mdke> ok
<LaserJock> the thing is that both Debian and Ubuntu remove outdated file fairly rapidly, so links will get stale quickly for package files
<mdke> ok, http://doc.ubuntu.com/files/packagingguide/
<LaserJock> mdke: perfect. thanks so much
<mdke> np, anytime
<LaserJock> heh, better not say that :-)
<mdke> :)
<mdke> afk
<Burgwork> mdke, did anybody fix the dvd section?
<jsgotangco> Burgwork: nows your chance to finally contribute something!
<jsgotangco> :D
* jsgotangco hides
<robotgeek> mdke: going to delete the unused sample/<files>
<Burgwork> jsgotangco, nah, I don't write docs
<jsgotangco> right, you get paid to write books *snicker*
<Burgwork> I would fix it, but I forgot last night and I haven't set up port forwarding on my router, so I can't get into my home machine
<jsgotangco> ahhh
<jsgotangco> ok malone just beat me
* jsgotangco is tired and sleepy
<robotgeek> Burgwork: done
<Burgwork> robotgeek, the dvd stuff?
<robotgeek> Burgwork: yeah, only substitles
<jsgotangco> if a robot makes work fast, a robotgeek makes it lightning speed
<Burgwork> ah, I wondered if we added gxine to watch the actual dvds
<robotgeek> lol
<robotgeek> it just works on kubuntu :)
<Burgwork> you guys are shipping a player with the xine backend
<jsgotangco> robotgeek: did you ever get to incorporate some stuff from the old kubuntu quickgude to the kdg?
<Burgwork> we are shipping with gstreamer, hence the issue
<robotgeek> jsgotangco: no, i kinda gave up after the seeing the screenshot video
<jsgotangco> lol
<robotgeek> jsgotangco: i think i stole something for the printer section, but nothing more
<jsgotangco> no worries
<robotgeek> jsgotangco: that video was very excrutiating to watch :P
<trappist> our fdl looks to be out of date
<trappist> on gnu.org section 4 is modifications and on ours section for is copying in quantity
<trappist> but ours refers to section 4 as the modifications section, so I think maybe we tried to update just certain parts of it?
<trappist> e.g. we have "You may copy and distribute a Modified Version of the Document under the conditions of sections 2 and 3 above..." where section 2 is applicability and definitions, which I don't think is right
<trappist> it's not right - on gnu.org it also refers to sections 2 and 3, where 2 is verbatim copying.
<jsgotangco> good night
<trappist> ours has the same version number and date... maybe I should just snatch up http://www.gnu.org/licenses/fdl.xml, which is kindly provided for us
<trappist> night jsgotangco 
<trappist> if I do that it validates once I add the dtd
<trappist> god it's so much better if I do that.
<trappist> anyone?
<robotgeek> trappist: :)
<trappist> ok ima commit it
<robotgeek> trappist: clueless, really
<robotgeek> bbl
<trappist> the gpl is similarly borked
<mdke> Burgwork, yeah, I did it
<mdke> Burgwork, the desktop guide all works now, i think
<mdke> robotgeek, good plan
<Burgwork> mdke, cool, ok
<frank23> robotgeek: I can prrofread more of the kdg. start with add-applications.xml maybe? What was that about the flash-plugin changes you wanted to do?
<frank23> has the documentation been sent to rosetta yet?
<mdke> no
<frank23> ok
<LaserJock> mdke: is the html being built daily still?
<mdke> twice daily
<mdke> i hope :)
<LaserJock> ok
<LaserJock> wow, it was built since I left the house just a little bit ago
<mdke> mmmmmmm new yelp
<mdke> <3
<LaserJock> yeah!
<trappist> of course I'm not subscribed to the -server list, so by the time my email gets to anybody there won't be much point
<mdke> trappist, you could always subscribe, I suppose
<trappist> yeah, and send again
<jjesse> does the ubuntu release notes contain min specs for installing ubuntu?  don't remember if it does or not
<Kyral> I think the Shipit CD Covers do
<Kyral> and I qoute
<Kyral> For Desktop: 128 MB RAM and 1.8 GB DiskSpace
<Kyral> For Server: 64 MB RAM and 350 MB DiskSpace
<jjesse> recomended?
<Kyral> "at least:
<rob> mdke, still aroun?
<Kyral> is the specific wording
<rob> err around even
<rob> thunderstorm is messing with my wireless keyboard..
<Kyral> lol
<LaserJock> that's about the time I think about turning my compy off
<mdke> rob, more or less. what's up?
<rob> so did you want to take the lulu idea to the CC/Canonical and see what they have to say?
<mdke> rob, I will see if a few more people reply, and then I'll mail Jane or someone similar
<Burgwork> Jane S is the person to talk to
<rob> ok, sounds good
<Kyral> lulu?
<rob> let me know if you need a hand with anything, I'm happy to help out
<LaserJock> jeeze, pay attention Kyral ;p
<rob> hehe
<Kyral> LaserJock: I've been studying for a Chem exam for crying out loud
<rob> Kyral, lulu will allow people to buy printed copies of the guides
<Kyral> ah
<rob> cheaply too
<LaserJock> Kyral: then you are excused ;-) see https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2006-April/005826.html
<mdke_> yes, that's the Jane I meant
<Kyral> Yah Chemistry boi :P
<mdke_> damn network
* mdke_ blinks
<Kyral> That was a reference to LJ :P
* LaserJock does the "I love Chemistry" dance
<LaserJock> anybody want to join me?
* rob runs
<LaserJock> heh
<Kyral> I'll reduce your oxidation pal!
<LaserJock> lol
* mdke disappears for the evening
* rob disappears for work :(
<mdke> 12 hours before I'll get to any translation generating, so make hay
<rob> I hate windows so much.. we so broke the servers trying to upgrade them to 2003 yesterday
<LaserJock> neutron walks into a bar, sits down and asks for a drink. Finishing, the neutron asks "How much?"
<LaserJock> The bartender says, "For you, no charge."
<mdke> don't get it
<mdke> now shoo back to the PG
* Burgwork smacks LaserJock for the bad jokes :)
<mdke> night all
* LaserJock sulks back to vim
<LaserJock> mdke: can you hold off on sending the PG until I email you? I'm not sure with timezones and all when I'll have it done
<LaserJock> probably within 12 hrs but I'm not sure
<mdke> LaserJock, yes
<LaserJock> k
<LaserJock> ok, one last one, and then I'll leave ;-)
<LaserJock> Q: Why does hamburger have lower energy than steak?
<LaserJock> A: Because it's in the ground state.
* LaserJock runs
<jjesse> wow
<LaserJock> and that is why chemists aren't comedians
<LaserJock> the new yelp looks wonderful
<trappist> little johnny was a chemist, little johnny is no more.  for what he thought was H2O was H2SO4.
<LaserJock> ohhh, that's good
<LaserJock> although he wasn't a very good chemist was he ;-)
<trappist> :)
<jjesse> what is h2so4?
<trappist> sulfuric acid
<LaserJock> sulfuric acid
<jjesse> oh
<robotgeek> jjesse: commited
<LaserJock> i.e. not good for your health ;-)
<jjesse> robotgeek: finally :)
<robotgeek> jjesse: only reason why i said in the root directory is that it is easy for the person committing the patch to do so very easily
<jjesse> robotgeek: oh, never had issues before, that's intresteing
<robotgeek> jjesse: meaning, i don't have to spend too much time wondering what to patch :)
<jjesse> robotgeek: totally understand
#ubuntu-doc 2006-04-12
<trappist> is there an xml file somewhere that includes all the top-level guides' xml files? 
<LaserJock> a what, that includes what?
<trappist> you know how serverguide.xml includes network-application.xml, and things like that.  looking for something that includes serverguide.xml and all the other top-level guides.
<LaserJock> I don't know of one
<trappist> yeah me too :/
<LaserJock> why?
<LaserJock> seems like it would be a huge mess
<trappist> was mucking around with validate.sh.  I'd like it to be able to validate all modified files or the whole kitnkaboodle.
<trappist> and a file like that would come in handy.
<LaserJock> heh, that is what bash scripting is for ;-)
<LaserJock> or a neato python script
<trappist> yeah, a list of those files would serve the same purpose
<LaserJock> hmm, if I ever get this packaging guide done I'd like to make some more scripts for the doc team
<LaserJock> trappist: you still busy?
<robotgeek> whoops, forgot to update flash plugin info
<Burgundavia> hmm, facinating. If you look at the raw numbers for Ubuntu at Distrowatch, we are kicking ass
<Burgundavia> we are getting between 2 and 4 times the hits of next most popular, currently tied up amongst mepis, fedora, suse and mandriva
<robotgeek> Burgundavia: yay
<robotgeek> kubuntu isn't far behind, too
<Burgundavia> in real numbers, our one month stat is around 3000 with use climbing to 7000 on Tuesday
<Burgundavia> kubuntu is around 500
<Burgundavia> that is hits per day, one hit per ip
* robotgeek finishes page on how to turn off public away in Konversation
<robotgeek> hey frank23 
<frank23> robotgeek: hey. is the kdg rush over?
<robotgeek> frank23: i guess it's over, with maybe a handhelds patch from jjesse 
<robotgeek> otherwise, we are done. if that patch doesn't come in soon, we delete the section
<frank23> ok
<robotgeek> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KonversationPublicAway 
<frank23> robotgeek: I noticed a few rough spots while reading it but I don't think they're that bad
<robotgeek> frank23: which chapters?
<frank23> robotgeek: well the one I thought could be most improved is the adept part.  that section basically only tells how to open adept. not how to actually use it
<robotgeek> frank23: hmm, yes. at the time of writing, i did not know how adept would change. i left it for later, <sigh>
<frank23> robotgeek: yeah. adept is not 'that' hard to figure out. but a general procedure to install a package would have been nice
<robotgeek> frank23: yeah, well, atleast the adept guide can help!
<frank23> yeah
<frank23> true we don't need to reinvent the wheel
<robotgeek> jjesse is writing that :)
<frank23> the adept guide? 
<robotgeek> frank23: or the handbook (help file)
<frank23> robotgeek: will the documentation translations be done through rosetta?
<robotgeek> frank23: yup
<frank23> translating programs seems pretty messy. I looked at the translation mailing list and people were saying that often the upstream translations (for GNOME and KDE) just replace work done in rosetta
<frank23> translating ubuntu specific things like docs should be ok though
<frank23> I might help with the French translation
<robotgeek> frank23: awesome. 
<Burgundavia> anything producing by ubuntu will not have upstream replace bits of it
<robotgeek> i heard quebec french is different from paris french :P
<frank23> robotgeek: well written 
<frank23> robotgeek: well written French is pretty standard
<frank23> the accent and expressions are certainly pretty different
<frank23> Well compare British English and the Texan accent.
<frank23> On top of that I'm not actually a Quebecer
<robotgeek> frank23: :)
<frank23> I'm Acadian
* bhuvan does last sg commit
<Madpilot> hi all
<robotgeek> hey Madpilot 
* LaserJock waves from behind the computer
* robitaille waves from work...
<Madpilot> robitaille, what are you doing at work at 10pm?
<robitaille> a long story.  And you know, the climate nevers stops :)
<Madpilot> well, yes, but surely the climate computers can run unsupervised overnight?
<robitaille> actually I just got here.  Just finishing a few things in the next couple of hours
<Madpilot> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MigratingFromWindows
<Madpilot> ^^ something I've been meaning to start for a month or three, and want to get into the Dapper+1 UDG
<robotgeek> Madpilot: http://openmoveover.sourceforge.net/
<Madpilot> robotgeek, cool. Bookmarked for future reference
<robotgeek> Madpilot: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDownUnder/BOFs/MigratingToUbuntu
<robotgeek> there's the spec :)
<robotgeek> Madpilot: http://ubuntu.wordpress.com/2006/03/28/tool-to-migrate-from-windows-to-ubuntu-linux/#comments is the original
<Madpilot> I was wondering if there was a spec, actually - doesn't look like much has happened on it, though
<Burgundavia> they did a bunch of specing at UDU that never got done
<Burgundavia> that was before JaneW got hired and kicked ass
<Burgundavia> Madpilot: openmoveover is only the linux portion
<Madpilot> yeah, was reading the copy there - too bad they didn't open-source the whole pile
<Burgundavia> which is not the hard part
<Madpilot> as I said in the intro to the page I just created :P
<Burgundavia> I would almost keep a migration guide seperate from the desktkop guide
<Madpilot> either way, first we need a mirgration guide - I'm going to make notes when I switch Clive's Outlook over this weekend, and google for stuff - I'm sure a lot has already been written
<Burgundavia> yep
<Burgundavia> there is outstanding bounty of 500 from Novell to write an Outlook to Evolution guide
<robotgeek> Madpilot: go for it :)
<Madpilot> this is just Outlook Express, thankfully, so it's just address books & emails, not all the rest of the Outlook/Evolution bumpf
<Burgundavia> heh
<robotgeek> i need to work on my imap "server"
<Madpilot> robotgeek, the trouble is that I can't write most of it - I don't have access to Outlook, or to the newest versions of OE (I'll be working with Win98's OE)
<robotgeek> i am definetly tired of not having the freedom to switch clients
<Burgundavia> I can do the windows stuff
<Madpilot> Burgundavia, cool.
<Madpilot> The easiest is the IE-to-Firefox, that's just File->Import in FF :P
<Madpilot> on the Ubuntu side, anyway. Getting IE to tell you where it hides your bookmarks is a bit harder...
<robotgeek> install firefox on windows, import, export :)
<Madpilot> robotgeek, that works, but it's messier than just figuring out where Win98/XP/etc hide the IE bookmarks file
<robotgeek> Madpilot: true.
<Burgundavia> I think IE keeps it in a single file
<Burgundavia> Madpilot: http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=211089
<Burgundavia> the good people at MS have already considered this
<Madpilot> ah, IE does have an Export function - I hadn't thought it did
<Burgundavia> I would go into windows to test things, but I would rather not torture myself
<Madpilot> does your machine have Outlook or just OE on it?
<Burgundavia> oe, but I can get the full version of Outlook
<Burgundavia> we shoudl concentrate on OE for now
<Madpilot> If Novell is offering public bounties for Outlook stuff, it's beyond what we need to tackle right now!
<Burgundavia> yep
<rob> ?
<Madpilot> rob, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MigratingFromWindows
<rob> ah
<Madpilot> rob, and Burgundavia's comment somewhere above about Novell offering bounties for Outlook-to-Evolution migration stuff
<rob> very nice, you could see why they would want that
<Burgundavia> would be nice to write a little tool in python to copy the files and then burn a cd with them
<Burgundavia> on the windows side
<rob> how closed is the .pst file format?
<rob> or rather, how cryptic?
<Burgundavia> as closed as any other ms format
<Burgundavia> likely just as cryptic
<Burgundavia> remember, this is the company that keeps log files in a binary format
<rob> knowing MS, probably
<robitaille> http://www.mailnavigator.com/reading_ms_outlook_pst_files.html   "The format of MS Outlook mail archives (*.pst) is protected by Microsoft."
<Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuLiveChatSupport
<rob> ah, yeah I've seen that one at work before
<Burgundavia> umm, the wiki page just got created
<robitaille> it's too bad the only gui irc client is gaim in Dapper.... not the best for new users
<robitaille> at least it seems irssi is still installed by default :)
<Burgundavia> no, but something like that thingy could go a long way towards making it easier to handle joining #ubuntu
<robitaille> yes, but once you're there, gaim is a crappy way to interface with irc
<rob> correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't xchat also installed by default or has that been changed?
<Burgundavia> xchat is no longer isntlaled by default
<rob> icky, how come they changed that?
<robitaille> so the only irc client installed by default in Dapper  are now gaim, and irssi
<robitaille> ...and I'm not sure why irssi is still in that list...
<Burgundavia> it is small and text based
<rob> irssi and lynx has saved my butt a couple of times before
<rob> well, they have
<robitaille> I personally prefer elinks over lynx.  But neither lynx or elinks are installed by default
<rob> I'm not really refering to Ubuntu though
<rob> generally its some other distro and an upgrade has broken something, etc
<robitaille> I use elinks/mutt/irssi on a daily basis.  Small memory footprint, works over an ssh connections...pefect tools for the CLI oldtimer in me :)
<mdke_> morning
<Burgundavia> salut mdke_
<LaserJock> hi mdke_ 
<mdke_> how's it going?
<Burgundavia> not bad
<Burgundavia> did you see the cool irc stuff that joel is cooking up?
<mdke_> no...
<Burgundavia> scroll back up
<mdke_> don't see it. Maybe I was disconnected
<Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuLiveChatSupport
<Burgundavia> and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SensibleIRCHandler
<mdke_> is that intended for dapper?
<Burgundavia> no idea
<Madpilot> I should actually try GAIM next time I run the Dapper LiveCD - I'll probably come running back to XChat, as kludgy as it is... :P
<Burgundavia> it is done by the a community member
<Burgundavia> gaim is pretty cludgy to get going
<Burgundavia> it is about 10 steps to get into #ubuntu
<Madpilot> lovely
<Madpilot> worse than XChat-Gnome, then
<Madpilot> mdke_, far more modest, but I just started this: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MigratingFromWindows
<mdke_> cool idea
<mdke_> hey, xchat-gnome rocks
<Madpilot> you've got a strange definition of "rocks", then :P
<mdke_> i love it
<Burgundavia> it has some quirky issues with the network connection/choosing dialog
<mdke_> if that irc thing goes into dapper, that will mean a fair amount of work on the docs
<Madpilot> XChat is hard to use, but highly configurable. XChat-Gnome is hard to use, and totally unconfigurable - worst of both worlds, IMO
<mdke_> i find it easy to use
<Madpilot> mdke_, start with a stock install of XChat - launch it, and it goes right to #ubuntu. A stock XChat-Gnome just sits there after being launched
<mdke_> that's a bug
<mdke_> Madpilot, ok, so desktop guide is alright?
<Madpilot> mdke_, sure - we can freeze it and unleash the translators, I think
<mdke_> i hope you don't mind but i removed quite a lot of stuff that I thought was pretty irrelevant
<mdke_> quite obscure workarounds and so on
<bhuvan> mdke_: couple of hours i did some typo fix in sg. i assume it's ok
<Madpilot> yeah, I was following the commits as best I could from work today - looks like you cleaned up a lot of the Firefox bumpf, and other stuff
<mdke_> bhuvan, good, trappist found some more errors too
<mdke_> bhuvan, he has posted to various mailing lists asking for feedback, so I will wait and see if there is any response
<bhuvan> mdke_: excellent
<mdke_> robotgeek, kubuntu stuff?
<Madpilot> it looks like trappist proofread the entire SVN repo in the last two or three days, by the commit reports!
<mdke_> yeah
<mdke_> ok see ya later
<Burgundavia> Madpilot: think I should compare Scribus to InDesign?
<Madpilot> you probably could - it's certainly got more firepower than, say, MS Publisher
<Madpilot> bleh - the actual Scribus website doesn't seem to have an "About Scribus" section... :P
<Burgundavia> what are other big touch typing teaching programs?
<Burgundavia> night all
<LaserJock> mdke_: ping?
<LaserJock> trappist: ping?
<mdke_> LaserJock, pong
<LaserJock> mdke_: I think I just commited the last of the packaging guide
<mdke_> LaserJock, woohoo
<LaserJock> mdke_: but it is 1:00 am local time and I'd like for someone to check over a few sections for spelling/grammar
<LaserJock> fresh eyes
<LaserJock> do you know what trappist's TZ is?
<mdke_> LaserJock, fine. Jolly well done
<mdke_> something american, I think
<LaserJock> hmm :/
<LaserJock> I'm sending an email to the list
<LaserJock> and when doc.ubuntu.com gets rebuilt I'll send an email to -motu and -devel
<LaserJock> mdke_: sound ok?
<mdke_> LaserJock, yep. I'll wait and see if trappist has anything to do on it, then do some translations, and if it needs to be changed later, so be it
<LaserJock> ok
<LaserJock> I've had a couple packaging newbs go through it pretty extensively yesterday and today and I think it is fairly solid
<mdke_> great
<LaserJock> good night
<mdke_> trappist, when you wake up, I'm gonna wait for your go-ahead on the server and packaging guides before doing translation templates. Jordan wanted you to take a last look at the PG
<mdke_> jjesse, robotgeek, kubuntu docs are ready to go?
<trappist> mdke_: I'm sure if I went through them again I'd find some more changes to make, but I think it's safe to send both docs to the translators.
<mdke_> trappist, good, thanks. off I go
<jjesse> mdke_: as far as i know
* jsgotangco starts reviewing docs
<jjesse> i think i need to put some info for guidence and knetworkmanager in release notes
<jsgotangco> jjesse: you can make an online errata page in help if needed if the release notes gets too hairy a few weeks before release
<jsgotangco> help.ubuntu.com rather
<jjesse> jsgotangco: sure, would that just be a new doc then?  errrata.xml?
<jsgotangco> jjesse: no i mean have it online - then make a link from your releasenotes in the distro
<jsgotangco> jjesse: because changes will definitely happen a few days before relesae
<jjesse> jsgotangco: sure can that would be on help.ubuntu.com and not the wiki? (wiki.ubuntu.com)
<jsgotangco> jjesse: sure its our server anyways
<jjesse> jsgotangco: ok 
<mdke_> jjesse, right, well if the dg and aboutkubuntu are ready, please ask riddell to do an upload with the new pot files in
* jsgotangco wonders where LaserJock is at this time
<jjesse> mdke_: ok, did robotgeek respond to your questioN?
<mdke_> jjesse, no
<jjesse> mdke_: sent riddell a not to upload the new pot files
<jsgotangco> mdke_: is the docteam website still the wiki? or should it be doc.ubuntu.com?
<mdke_> jsgotangco, i don't think there is a right answer to that
<jsgotangco> cheersw
<jjesse> jsgotangco: stupid question how do i create the errata webpage?  should i create it in .xml and build it into html like the other docs?
<jsgotangco> hmm it'll get packaged if you do it in svn then commit
<jsgotangco> :D
<jjesse> mdke_: the .pot files need to be just included in the package correct?
<mdke_> yes
<mdke_> jjesse, we're not doing release notes yet anyway
<jjesse> mdke_: ok
<jsgotangco> hmmm
* jsgotangco wonders if its ok to add an example on the packaging guide...it only listed the required packages but no sample
<mdke_> jsgotangco, I'd ask Laserjock first
<mdke_> he's got some examples online already
<jsgotangco> i'll list my observations in the list
<jsgotangco> instead of mucking up his code
<jsgotangco> mdke_: online's no good imo
<mdke_> are they linked in the guide?
<mdke_> i think that is what he intended
<jsgotangco> they're no good if they're not linked (im halfway already in the sweep)
<jsgotangco> im also following the examples just to make sure they work in dapper
<jsgotangco> (currently in pbuilder section)
<mdke_> another thing to let him know is that the bugs section appears to be empty
<jsgotangco> mdke_: looking forward 3 to 5 years, we'll need a solid errata plan for these docs -  we can't just rely on uploading updates imo
<mdke_> #what updates?
<jsgotangco> on the docs :P
<mdke_> I haven't suggested relying on uploading updates
<jjesse> wouldn't the package just get updated if there was a change/improvement to the guide?
<jsgotangco> mdke_: i didn't say anything about YOU relying on such
<jsgotangco> jjesse: sure are you willing to do that for 3 years? :)
<jjesse> ummmmmmmmm
<jsgotangco> my point is for whoever will inherit this work
<mdke_> jsgotangco, the docs won't need updating, unless the distribution changes, which it won't
<jsgotangco> sure things change
<mdke_> example?
<jsgotangco> i can't predict the future
<mdke_> but the distro is frozen, it won't change
<jsgotangco> i dunno if you ever bought a box of software or appliance but there's a reason WHY there are loose leafs of documents included colored pink or yellow to attract your attention
<jsgotangco> but if you think its not a necessity, its up to you then i'm just saying this in a QA standpoint
<jsgotangco> i don't expect a lot of love happening after a doc is released anyway
<jsgotangco> it'll eventually get branched
<mdke_> i'm certainly not concerned about updates, I believe that the distribution won't change significantly enough to break anything in a doc. that's the whole point of having a frozen distro release cycle
<jsgotangco> mdke_: i can only imagine how big the updates will be 2 years from now cheers
<jjesse> if we make improvements to the kubuntu dekstop guide for example those improvements will show up Dapper+1, not the dapper docs?
<jjesse> also changes made will screw up translations correct
<jsgotangco> jjesse: i dont think its a good idea to upload updates
<jsgotangco> hence the need for an external link imo
<jjesse> that would be made just after the release
<jsgotangco> jjesse: exactly
<jsgotangco> like i said, pink or yellow loose sheets :)
<robotgeek> jjesse: ever got around to the handhelds section ?
<mdke_> I still don't see what changes you think will be made to the distribution. All versions are frozen
<jjesse> robotgeek: no i didn't sorry
<jsgotangco> mdke_: i worked in software qa for 5 years :)
* jsgotangco goes back to reviewing the packaging guide
<robotgeek> mdke_: can i comment out something?
<mdke_> jsgotangco, I'm sure you did. But you're ignoring the Ubuntu release policy
<jsgotangco> mdke_: lol
<mdke_> oh well, let's wait and see
<mdke_> robotgeek, best to delete, I'd say
<robotgeek> mdke_: okay, delete :)
<jsgotangco> mdke_: im not uploading something, i'm asking an external permanent link to possible errata that may happen - its something i don't expect a lot of people involved in writing to do it but for a long term release its essential to know what you did before and monitor whatever scrwed up forgotten things that may come out
<jsgotangco> mdke_: the way you describe the cycle is that there won't be anything wrong that will happen
<mdke_> nothing wrong that will affect the docs, certainly. major bugs might be fixed
<jsgotangco> mdke_: i'm sorry you see it this way 
<jjesse> robotgeek: do you include any discussion on guidence in your desktop guide?
<robotgeek> jjesse: nope, i don't even know what it is :P
<mdke_> jsgotangco, perhaps I just don't understand your proposal. Would you email the list about it?
<jsgotangco> id rather do something productive for now
<ompaul> http://www.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/releases Says dapper is out April ...
<jsgotangco> ompaul: please ping heno about this
<ompaul> k
<jjesse> robotgeek: http://www.simonzone.com/software/guidance/
<jsgotangco> ompaul: cheers mate
<mdke_> ompaul, i'll do it
<robotgeek> jjesse: i knew it had something to do with displays, but nothing more
<ompaul> np
<ompaul> okay ball is yours mdke_ 
<mdke_> ompaul, well spotted, thanks
<robotgeek> jjesse: nice 
<robotgeek> mdke_: deleted and committed
<robotgeek> mdke_: xml2po it now?
<mdke_> doing it
<mdke_> did riddell upload already?
<jsgotangco> mdke_: i'm not saying you do this now, rather do it later, i don't expect you to do some changes to the same doc even a year from now but somebody will curse how outdated they will be in 2 years cheers
<robotgeek> jsgotangco: online errata/corrections page should be fine, wikified even
<jjesse> mdke_: i pinged riddell and he said he would take care of it
<jsgotangco> robotgeek: thank you
<robotgeek> jsgotangco: that ways, we can copy on for dapper + 1 if applicable
<jsgotangco> robotgeek: yup
<jsgotangco> but remember, 6.10 will eventually be EOL with 6.06 will still live a few more :)
<robotgeek> ah, nice touch. i don't think i will upgrade to 6.10 (but i always say that)
<jjesse> does 6.10 have an official name?
<jjesse> or code name
<jsgotangco> robotgeek: yeah enterprise support is scary
<robotgeek> edgy elephant?
<robotgeek> jsgotangco: show me the money :)
<jsgotangco> lol
<jsgotangco> pink sheets and yellow leaflets for everyone
<robotgeek> mdke_: when do we upload to rosetta, lot of translators asking me :)
<jsgotangco> mdke_: gee frozen thanks i'm still halway to review on the packaging guide thank you so much
<frank23> robotgeek: impatient translators...  I think that's a very good thing ;)
<robotgeek> frank23: :)
<robotgeek> mdke_: thanks, just saw email
<mdke_> blimey, jerome has some problems with me recently
<frank23> just wondering...  Is there anyone in ubuntu-docs employed by canonical?
<robotgeek> i think dicussion is good
<mdke_> frank23, no
<mdke_> robotgeek, what discussion?
<robotgeek> mdke_: the whole lulu thing, but i don't know why people get personal
<mdke_> that's not what it's about. he got just mad because I wrote that email saying docs were frozen
<mdke_> look at what he said before leaving
* mdke_ shrugs
<LaserJock> who?
<jjesse> jerome
<jjesse> maybe he's having a bad day?
<mdke_> yeah
<mdke_> i hope it's not me, anyway
<LaserJock> hmm, he replied to my email request for a spell/grammar check on the PG
<jjesse> mdke_: i don't have any problems with you
<jjesse> if that helps :)
<LaserJock> jjesse: +1 ;-)
<mdke_> thanks :)
<LaserJock> mdke_: is it possible to have errata pages for docs on the website?
<mdke_> already?
<mdke_> just correct them
<LaserJock> well, I was just thinking hypothetically, of course ;-)
<LaserJock> our docs are perfect you know ;p
* robotgeek files bug on packaging guide. it doesn't package for me
<LaserJock> LOL
<robotgeek> bbl
<mdke_> yeah we can do errata, but it won't be translated. I don't think the OS will change in order to necessitate changes, however
<LaserJock> I hope not
<LaserJock> packaging can be a little finicky that way, i.e. my request to store files on doc. because Debian doesn't have them anymore
<LaserJock> mdke_: I'm going to quickly add the doc-base thing to kubuntu before Riddell does a new upload
<mdke_> LaserJock, ok
<jenda> hello
<jjesse> hello
<jenda> mmm... familiar faces :)
<jsgotangco> oh/
<LaserJock> hmm, why is kubuntu-docs .deb so much bigger (11M) than the ubuntu-docs .deb (609K)?
<jjesse> are the .pots bigger?
<LaserJock> hmm, maybe but 11M vs 609K ?
<trappist> I'll be on a plane during the meeting today
<jsgotangco> trappist: there's on-flight internet tee hee
* jsgotangco goes back to review
<trappist> that'll be cool
<jjesse> what's the easiest way to remember all the meetings? 
<trappist> friday 3pm
<trappist> err 
<trappist> depending on where you are :)
<LaserJock> jjesse: iCal :-)
<LaserJock> trappist: what meeting, btw?
<jjesse> yeah but i always forget when the meetings are to add them
<LaserJock> jjesse: no, fridge has an ical file you subscribe to. it automatically sets it up
<jjesse> LaserJock: cool, how do i do that in kontact?
<LaserJock> can you add a url?
<LaserJock> somewhere
<LaserJock> like new calendar or something
<LaserJock> jjesse: then use http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event/ical
<LaserJock> as the address
<jjesse> nothing on the calendar for today
<jsgotangco> yeah you'll only be with crickets if you to -meeting heh
<jjesse> is there a doc team meeting today?
* jsgotangco hears crickets chirping now
<trappist> I thought they were every friday
<LaserJock> ? we wouldn't have anything to talk about if they were that often :-)
<LaserJock> mdke_: doc-base done
<jsgotangco> LaserJock: im going to stop at pbuilder and it works now but the cd part should be commented
<jsgotangco> its 2:30am
<jsgotangco> :)
<LaserJock> jsgotangco: noted, thanks
<LaserJock> mdke_: hmm, ubuntu-docs is 6.04 but kubuntu-docs is 6.06
<Burgwork> LaserJock, ubuntu-docs will become 6.06 upon release
<LaserJock> k
<LaserJock> I just wondered it was noticed
<jjesse> will what is in trunk move to a branch?
<LaserJock> jjesse: I was wondering that myself. I gotta get a head start on Dapper+1 ;-)
<Burgwork> as do I
<Burgwork> I think we will tag actually
<jjesse> we moved last time
<jjesse> after doc freeze
<Burgwork> that was a minor disaster
<jjesse> partly because no one knew aything about how the kubuntu docs were being built
<LaserJock> so will we keep trunk until the day Dapper is released?
<Burgwork> yes
<LaserJock> k
<jjesse> for release notes
<Burgwork> I am not an svn expert
<LaserJock> nor I
* robotgeek is reading about svn:externals
<LaserJock> trappist: ping?
<mdke> LaserJock, yeah, I think daniel goes month by month for ubuntu-docs
<mdke> thanks for doing doc-base dude
<jjesse> the adept guide wasn't made a part of any doc package correct?  
<LaserJock> umm, it is in kubuntu-docs
<mdke> what lj said
<jjesse> i thought just the about desktop guide and release notes were in kubuntu docs? cause its woefully out of date 
<mdke> jjesse, open khelpcenter and you'll see what is there
<LaserJock> jjesse: the serverguide and packaging guide are also there
* LaserJock was just looking at all the files installed by kubuntu-docs ;-)
<jjesse> i have release notes about kubuntu kubuntu desktop guide, kubuntu packaging guide, kubuntu server guide
<mdke> the adept guide is not in the kubuntu category I think, but it is there somewhere
<LaserJock> mdke: btw, the Kubuntu docs look great in dhelp, I wish the ubuntu docs would work with it too
<jjesse> not in my khelpcenter
<jjesse> since adept guide is going to be put upstream when i re write the whole darn thing it shouldn't be a part of the kubuntu docs package
<mdke> LaserJock, how come they don't?
<mdke> jjesse, ok, I'll take care of it. You're sure it shouldn't be there even for dapper?
<jjesse> yes i'm totally sure
<mdke> okies
<jjesse> adept has been totally restructured since the guide was written by troywilliams
<mdke> oh yeah, it's been removed from khelpcenter already, good
<jjesse> see wiki.ubuntu.com/KubuntuDocs for the docs we did for Dapper :)
<mdke> it still gets installed to usr/share/doc/kde/HTML/en/adept/
<jjesse> but it is not linked anywhere
<jjesse> either thru adept or khelpcenter
<jjesse> hmm work is over, have a great rest of friday :)
<mdke> you too
<jjesse> wife's birthday so taking her out to dinner
<LaserJock> cya jjesse 
<mdke> cool, have fun
<LaserJock> mdke: dhelp only works on files installed to /usr/share/doc/
<mdke> LaserJock, nuking debian/kubuntu-adept
* mdke disappears for the evening too
<LaserJock> mdke: did you commit that?
<mdke> yes
<LaserJock> I see it, cool.
<mdke> ok, later.
<mdke> oh by the way, we should think about what we're gonna do re: branching and stuff
<mdke> I haven't got a firm view at the moment
* mdke disappears
<LaserJock> cya mdke 
#ubuntu-doc 2006-04-13
<carthik> Hi All, is there a way for me to find th pages I;ve edited on the wiki?
<theCore> carthik: I don't think so
<carthik> theCore, ta
<LaserJock> hi theCore 
<LaserJock> hi carthik 
<carthik> hi LaserJock 
<theCore> bonsoir LaserJock
<LaserJock> carthik: that is an interesting idea. I wonder if that is possible
<LaserJock> seems kinda obvious to have but I don't see it right off the bat
<carthik> LaserJock, wouldn't it be simple to do, too? I think I could do that at mediawiki (though I am not so sure)
<LaserJock> theCore: have you had a chance to see the final product :-)
<carthik> LaserJock, i edited a small page, and I cant find it for the life of me.
<corey_> mediawiki has that feature
<theCore> the final product?
<LaserJock> carthik: do you remember what it was about at all? you could use the full text search on some keywords
<corey_> moin does not
<LaserJock> theCore: the Packaging Guide is done. We are at string freeze
<theCore> crap ...
<theCore> my diffs ...
<crimsun> wait.
* LaserJock makes another mental note for mediawiki
<crimsun> you called for comments AT string freeze?
<LaserJock> yep
<LaserJock> crimsun: you know there are always exceptions ;-)
* crimsun finds a cluebat
<LaserJock> yeah, well it didn't go as fast as I wanted
<LaserJock> I spent ~30 hrs in the last 2 days on it
<carthik> LaserJock, it was something to do with wireless, A page that was a stub with a few details, that I thought could be deleted. Not too important though. I just thought that I;d ask here if there was some way of searching that I didn't know of.
* LaserJock accepts the cluebat abuse :/
<Madpilot> hi all
<theCore> LaserJock: nice work on the PG
<LaserJock> thanks
<LaserJock> a lot of people did a lot of work
<theCore> yep, and I missed my chance ... 
<LaserJock> you helped
<theCore> I been working all the week
<LaserJock> I'm thankful for your help
<theCore> I could had done much more
<LaserJock> well, you had computer issues too
<theCore> so, what I will do with my diffs?
<Madpilot> robotgeek, I added a "...To Kubuntu" section to the Migrating wiki page
<Burgundavia> salut all
<robotgeek> Madpilot: awesome :)
<Burgundavia> bloody flight6 madwifi driver sucks
<Madpilot> hi Burgundavia 
<robotgeek> Madpilot: we all need a breather, don't we :)
<Madpilot> robotgeek, for sure - I just wanted to get that MigratingFromWindows stuff started before I forgot about it again! :P
<LaserJock> theCore: send me the diffs
<LaserJock> hi Madpilot robotgeek Burgundavia 
<robotgeek> howdy LaserJock 
<Burgundavia> salut jsgotangco
<jsgotangco> hey
<LaserJock> hi jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> hey
* jsgotangco just woke up
* jsgotangco will continue the package guide test
<theCore> LaserJock: oh, I found a typo 
<LaserJock> of course :/
<theCore> in Updating Packages
<theCore> "To creat a dpatch patch do the following:"
<LaserJock> dang it, really? I thought I fixed that
<theCore> I got the lastest revision, and it still there
<jsgotangco> QA is king
<LaserJock> hmm, I'm getting more feedback after the freeze than before :-)
<LaserJock> I sure wish I could have finished a week ago
<jsgotangco> LaserJock: 3 years from now :)
<LaserJock> heh
<theCore> LaserJock: Did you saw my lame diff?
<LaserJock> I did
<LaserJock> theCore: don't feel bad. you did what you could
<jsgotangco> no! failure is failure!
<jsgotangco> joke
<LaserJock> jsgotangco: go to debian-devel where you belong
<LaserJock> also a joke ;-)
<jsgotangco> nahh its nice an warm here
<theCore> :)
<LaserJock> I'm somewhat concerned about how much I can change now that we have the freeze
<LaserJock> I would assume typos and minor changes are ok
<LaserJock> (well, typos aren't ok)
<LaserJock> but typo fixes should be ;-)
<jsgotangco> yes the pots can be easily generated and even if there are translations being made as long as the changes do not include re-phrasing, i would say its safe
<LaserJock> what about additions? like a note about taking out cdrom lines out of /etc/pbuilder/apt.config/sources.list ?
<jsgotangco> i think its safe to do that now, i dont think the pots are uploaded yet
<jsgotangco> i think they're not uploaded yet rather
<jsgotangco> or else i'l now see an annoucement in -translators
<jsgotangco> ciao guys im out for the mall
<LaserJock> hi robitaille 
<robitaille> LaserJock:  hi
* robitaille was watching tv...
<robotgeek> LaserJock: the kubuntu-docs don't install anymore
<robotgeek> would you have something to do with that?
<LaserJock> what? I sure hope not
<LaserJock> what does it say?
<robotgeek>  /usr/share/doc-base/kubuntu-adept: cannot open control file for reading: No such file or directory
<LaserJock> ahhhhh, craaap
<LaserJock> it does that at install?
<robotgeek> LaserJock: yessir
<robotgeek> update, actually
<LaserJock> hmm, I just updated and it worked
<LaserJock> oh wait
<robotgeek> LaserJock: you know why freenx not in dapper?
<LaserJock> not sure, I've tried to get it to work before and never got it. 
<robotgeek> LaserJock: worked for me firest time out
<LaserJock> there are some unofficial debs by doko, I think
<robotgeek> seveas also has a few
<LaserJock> oh, yeah. That is who I meant
<LaserJock> robotgeek:  looks like Riddell didn't apply all my changes :/
<robotgeek> LaserJock: ah, okay. i already pinged him, so i think it might be fixed
<LaserJock> robotgeek: basically what happens is the posinst script is looking for the files I added but the rules file doesn't install them 
<robotgeek> LaserJock: hmm, okay. not a big error ( i know), but people in #kubuntu are freaking out :)
<LaserJock> heh, want me to go over there and apologise and expain? :-)
<robotgeek> LaserJock: nope, i just wanted to let you know that there was a problem :)
<robotgeek> i seem to have overabuse my f12 button
<LaserJock> ?
<robotgeek> fn + f12 for eject, f12 for beagle search, and yakauke also wants f12 :P
<LaserJock> lol
<robotgeek> anyways, night
<LaserJock> cya, thanks for the heads up on the kubuntu-docs thing
<robotgeek> LaserJock: thanks for fixing (future)
<LaserJock> well, Riddell needs to do the fixing ;-)
<LaserJock> I just need to make sure I had my stuff right
<LaserJock> needed
<robotgeek> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/dapper/+source/kubuntu-docs/+translations has quick guide o_o
<Madpilot> oops
<Madpilot> hit the mailing list, Matt should be up in an hour or so
<robotgeek> kk
<Madpilot> morning mdke 
<Madpilot> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/xchat/+bug/38694/
<mdke> robotgeek, yes, I've requested it be removed. But it is a non-trivial process
<mdke> I will only announce translation when they have been removed
<mdke> robotgeek, ping?
<mdke> robotgeek, lemme know: do you have all patches from _frank? There are 4 waiting in the moderator queue for the mailing list
<warpforge> How can I try to get my wiki documentation into the main guide?
<Madpilot> depends what it covers, mostly
<Madpilot> which wiki docs are you thinking of?
<warpforge> I just wrote BluetoothDialup today
<warpforge> It's a network connectivity thing, so it would be nice to be able to access it sans Internet
<warpforge> Of course, I'd need to finish out data for other providers and phones
<Madpilot> we've just frozen the docs that'll ship with Dapper, but for Dapper+1 we know the networking section needs more work
<warpforge> Yeah, I know Dapper is frozen. I'm just curious about the next release
<warpforge> Does the Doc team regularly move wiki articles into the main help?
<Madpilot> not intact, generally, but they often get linked to from the help, or used as a resource when writing sections
<Madpilot> warpforge, are you on the docteam mailing list?
<warpforge> Just joined it
<warpforge> About 10 minutes ago
<Madpilot> good
<robotgeek> mdke: do you see anything about common-tasks.xml (i don't think so)
<robotgeek> mdke: i think everything has been commited, so go ahead with uploads
<LaserJock> man, one little boo boo and the bugs start coming in
<_frank> mdke: all my patches were commited on the 6th
<LaserJock> mdke_: are you aroundish?
<LaserJock> mdke_: I'm a little uncertain about fixing bugs after the freeze. Should I just commit? or should I hold off?
<mdke_> LaserJock, what's up?
<LaserJock> mdke_: I got some feedback
<mdke_> _frank, great thanks, I'll cancel the waiting posts
<LaserJock> mdke_: so I wanted to fix some types and add some clarifications/warnings 
<LaserJock> what is the proper method? just commit?
<mdke_> LaserJock, yeah go ahead. We always said the packaging guide could have some more space
<LaserJock> After I make changes do I need to notify anybody or do something?
<LaserJock> I don't want to mess with the translators
<mdke_> well, we didn't announce translation yet
<LaserJock> oh, ok
<mdke> but we'll need to generate a new pot file, and upload it to rosetta
<LaserJock> are you the one that does that?
<mdke> you can do it too if you like.
<LaserJock> really?
<LaserJock> ok
<mdke> you go to generic/packagingguide
<mdke> then the command is: xml2po -e -o packagingguide.pot C/*xml C/packagingguide-C.omf
<LaserJock> ok, great
<mdke> hmm, we don't have permissions to upload it to rosetta
<mdke> just commit it to svn, it'll go in on the next ubuntu-docs upload
<mdke> i'll ask about uploading manually to rosetta
<LaserJock> ok
<mdke> when creating the pot, the key thing to remember is to include the omf
<LaserJock> so right now rosetta is updated by an upload of the ubuntu-docs package?
<mdke> yes
<LaserJock> ah, I see
<LaserJock> ok, well I can take care of the .pot anyway
<mdke> yep
<mdke> it's very early, don't worry
<mdke> glad you got some feedback :)
<LaserJock> yeah, I was sorta suprised. So far it is all pretty good
<mdke> cool
<LaserJock> the Pbuilder section seems to be the common problem
<mdke> dapper only has 3 bugs
<mdke> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/dapper/+bugs
<mdke> good news
<LaserJock> that is good
<mdke> in that case, i think I'll dist upgrade my work laptop tomorrow
<LaserJock> mdke: another quick .pot question. I assume that stuff inside xml tags is ignored, right? I wanted to update some of the status tags.
<mdke> yep, most tags
<mdke> there are some exceptions, like <emphasis> and <ulink> and so on
<LaserJock> why emphasis?
* mdke shrugs
<LaserJock> fine, just wondered.
<mdke> I don't really know much about it
<LaserJock> so updating the status tags shouldn't ne a problem
<mdke> nope
<k31th> wats the easy'st way to gloablly change the word brezzy to dapper in /etc/apt/sources.list ? can i use sed?
<LaserJock> sure, but is there that many of them? or do you want it to be non-interactive
<k31th> Yo guys, does the wlan section still need covering ?
<trappist> k31th: in the serverguide? we nuked it.  and we're in string freeze
<k31th> trappist: oh ok.
#ubuntu-doc 2006-04-14
<poningru> mdke: dude which laptop do you have?
<poningru> presario 2100?
<poningru> which one exactly though?
<Burgundavia> salut all
<LaserJock> hi Burgundavia 
<Madpilot> hi Burgundavia 
<LaserJock> hi bustacap 
<Burgundavia> hmm, interesting thread on the wiki
<bustacap> gday LJ
<LaserJock> Burgundavia: how so?
<Burgundavia> LaserJock: lots of good ideas
<LaserJock> Burgundavia: do you think better use of Categories on a help.ubuntu.com wiki would be helpful?
<LaserJock> like a category for each major area of documentation?
<Madpilot> LaserJock, I was thinking about that too - not quite sure how to structure it, though
<crimsun> LaserJock: you guys are in string freeze, correct? What will you do about changes to the packaging guide that potentially rearrange sentences to eliminate awkwardness and/or correct grammatical mistakes?
<poningru> I thought minor changes didnt fall under string freeze,  just like minor bugfixes for software
<poningru> but /me is not part of the doc team
<crimsun> well, these potentially (definitely in most of the cases I see) affect strings.
<LaserJock> crimsun: well, I'm going to do small changes. The pot files haven't been uploaded yet
<crimsun> ok, good. I'm looking at it now.
<LaserJock> crimsun: if you email me a list of changes I'll do what I can, ok?
<crimsun> sorry I haven't been able to look earlier; ALSA work has been really ...forceful... lately.
<crimsun> is "website" standardized in the documentation? The last place I worked used "Web site".
<Burgundavia> LaserJock: yes, but sadly we cannot use better categories, due to having non-docs there
<Madpilot> afaik it's one word in all our stuff, crimsun 
<crimsun> ok, consistency it is.
<LaserJock> Burgundavia: that is why I was saying in combination with BetterWikiDocs
<Burgundavia> LaserJock: once we migrate to our own wiki, then yes
<Madpilot> in combination with actually, finally moving the docs to help.u.c, you mean?
<Burgundavia> yes
<LaserJock> yes, that is what I was trying to say
<Burgundavia> ah
<Burgundavia> sorry, am currently cooking now
<LaserJock> np
* robotgeek goes to look at BetterWikiDocs
<robotgeek> Burgundavia: blue is good :P
<crimsun> LaserJock: do you prefer packaging guide diffs sent to you or to the list?
<crimsun> (apologies if you've already answered, different proxy, multitasking, yadda yadda)
<LaserJock> crimsun: me is fine
<Burgundavia> robotgeek: blue is a not an Ubuntu colour
<robotgeek> Burgundavia: heh, we see what we want. muhahaha
<crimsun> LaserJock: patch 1 of ? sent.
<LaserJock> crimsun: k, thanks
<LaserJock> crimsun: wow, through. You must teach ;-)
<crimsun> I actually missed a place: It should read "files are installed to the right places."
<LaserJock> crimsun: k
<Burgundavia> anybody awake?
<Madpilot> hmm?
<Burgundavia> can you take a peek at /Website/Desktop?
<Burgundavia> I want to do the screenshots tonight and then move it to the website
<LaserJock> I'm awake and getting close to panic mode
<Burgundavia> LaserJock: why so?
<Madpilot> Burgundavia, that Firefox screenshot that someone else put in there is not done w/ the stock desktop theme - you'll need to re-take it
<Burgundavia> I realize that
<LaserJock> Burgundavia: umm, something came up and I need to do some real tweaking on a section in the Packaging Guide
<Burgundavia> ah
<Burgundavia> the packaging guide is not critical, so it can release a bit later
<Madpilot> in the OOo section, does Base really need it's own line? I'd just add, "and databases with Base" to the first line there
<Burgundavia> Madpilot: make edits as you see fit
<Madpilot> done, just a small edit
<LaserJock> hi mpt 
<mpt> hello LaserJock 
<LaserJock> thanks for the email about Dive into Python. I had kinda forgotten about it
<LaserJock> I used it a fair amount when I started learning Python
<LaserJock> mpt: do you think the second part of my idea (community cookbook) was plausible?
<mpt_> LaserJock_away, let us share in commiserations that the second parts of our respective e-mail messages weren't noticed :-)
<mpt_> LaserJock_away, it looks very much like you're describing http://www.python.org/doc/
<mpt_> particularly http://www.python.org/doc/topics/
<Burgundavia> mpt_: what was the second part of your email?
<mpt__> Burgundavia, the three things I'd love to see, and the three things I'd be disappointed to see, in Dapper+1
<Burgundavia> mpt__: ah
<mdke_> mpt__, I don't think that wasn't noticed
<mdke_> i read it, anyhow
<keith> Morning !
<theCore> mdke: ping
<mdke> theCore, pong
<mdke> theCore, pong
<theCore> mdke: sorry, I been disconnected
<mdke> np
<theCore> so?
<mdke> theCore, I haven't seen your question yet
<theCore> hmm
<theCore> <theCore> mdke: what do you think about adding a CodingStyle for DocBook to the Style Guide?
<theCore> <theCore> mdke: I really want to clean those files for Dapper+1
<mdke> I'm not too bothered by that, to be honest.
<mdke> in fact I think it might cause inconvenience, not sure
<mdke> but we should definitely talk about it as a team
<theCore> well, keeping the files like would cause inconviences too
<theCore> it just a distraction
<mdke> yeah, well, I'm not against the idea
<mdke> personally, I always use the tab button to make a tree of tags
<mdke> and don't bother breaking lines within paragraphs
<theCore> this could bother peoples doesn't use line wrapping in their editor
<mdke> it could do, but I just assume they will get over it, and concentrate on writing
<mdke> anyway, everyone should use gedit ;)
<theCore> :)
<theCore> we can't force peoples to use a certain editor, it would be even more bothering
<dsas> we could have a fun 'debate' about the worthiness of said editors though 
<mdke> it's no contest, gedit is the best
<dsas> vim > * tbh, everyone should know vim. It's the universal editor.
<theCore> M-x praise-emacs
<mdke> vim is just silly
<mdke> what's going on with having to press a button before you can type
<mdke> *shakes head*
<theCore> so you can use hjkl for navigation
<dsas> How many times do you edit an existing document versus writing a complete new one? Having command mode be the default means you can quickly get to the bit you want to edit.
<mdke> theCore, i have arrow keys for navigation
<mdke> and pgup/down
<dsas> mdke: arrow keys are slooow
<mdke> pgup/down
<dsas> pgup/pgdn are also slow, you have to move your fingers away from the home row
<mdke> pah
<theCore> it's all about efficiency, which includes economy of motion
<dsas> tbh I use gedit at home for most tasks, editing config files and docbook is vims job though.
<theCore> less you move, faster you edit
<mdke> theCore, i like to give my fingers a work out :)
<theCore> mdke: did you ever tried to write a plugin for gedit?
<mdke_> theCore, nope
<mdke_> it can be made even better?
<mdke_> surely not
<theCore> mdke_: to write one, you must know to use GObject from C, not an easy thing
<theCore> mdke_: with vi or emacs, writing one is trivial
<theCore> ok, I think that I done enough editor advocacy today ;)
<mdke_> heh
<mdke_> gedit doesn't need plugins, it's too good
<theCore> well, it could be better with an SVN plugin
* mdke_ shakes head stubbornly
<theCore> you could make Gedit read your mail too ;P
<mdke_> and make my dinner
<theCore> you could make Gedit publish your recipes to the rest of the world
<theCore> I think I'm corrupted by the `Emacs does everything' philosophy
<dsas> theCore: You can write gedit plugins in python too
<theCore> dsas: you still have to deal with GObject
<mach> hi, I'd like to know if is it possible to translate the WIP documentation projects through Rosetta?
<dsas> mach: the dapper docs to be translated are here: https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/dapper/+source/ubuntu-docs/+translations
<mach> dsas, hey, thank you very much
<dsas> Splitting hairs probably, but shouldn't our docs to be translated be translated as an upstream project, rather than just as the Dapper thing?
<dsas> I may just be going through my usual launchpad confusion.
<mdke> there are some things to be cleared up there, so we haven't announced translation yet
<dsas> Oh, sorry. What have we got left to do?
<mdke> we need to remove a few templates from rosetta
<LaserJock> theCore: heh, you still trying to get everybody to use emacs? ;-)
<theCore> LaserJock: lol
<LaserJock> the only thing that I'd really be worried about is tabs vs. spaces
<LaserJock> anybody know what gedit does with tabs by default?
<LaserJock> the main reason I don't use gedit is I'm usually writing over ssh or on OSX
#ubuntu-doc 2006-04-15
<theCore> LaserJock: gedit default Tabs at 8 character
<LaserJock> uggh
<LaserJock> and it doesn't replace with spaces?
<LaserJock> I usually like a 2 or 3 space tab
<theCore> 3 spaces ?
<theCore> uggh
<LaserJock> what do you use?
<theCore> it depend what I edit
<LaserJock> what do you usually use for a line width?
<theCore> but I try to keep my Tabs at 8 char
<theCore> 80 char
<theCore> 70 char for Text file
<LaserJock> it seems like with 8 space tabs you loose a lot of space for writing
<LaserJock> I usually do something like 100 char line widths to compensate for the tabs
<theCore> well, if you use more than 4 tabs in a line, you have a problem anyways
<LaserJock> I suppose
<LaserJock> It is just easier for me if I use 4 space tabs max
<mdke_> mmm? I use lots more than 4 tabs in a line sometimes
<mdke_> <sect1>
<mdke_>         <para>
<mdke_>                        <list>
<mdke_>                                       <you get the point>
<theCore> mdke_: for XML, I use 2 spaces
<mdke_> hmm
<mdke_> sounds like a good idea
<LaserJock> I think it might be nice to have a set of recommended values (tabs, line widths) for the various editors (gedit, emacs, and vim)
<poningru> mdke_: are you not maintaining the laptop testing page for presario 2100?
<poningru> it seemed to have moved to the nonmaintained area
<poningru> just making sure before I make a new partition on my laptop and switch it to dapper
<mdke_> poningru, I haven't updated it much recently, everything works on it
<poningru> oh ok
<theCore> FAG
<theCore> FAG
<theCore> FAG
<theCore> FAG
<theCore> FAG
<mdke_> theCore, oy
<theCore> FAG
<theCore> FAG
<theCore> FAG
<poningru> um...
<theCore> FAG
<poningru> !op
<theCore> FAG
<theCore> FAG
<theCore> FAG
<theCore> FAG
<theCore> FAG
<theCore> FAG
<theCore> FAG
* mode/#ubuntu-doc [+o mdke_]  by ChanServ
<poningru> ok nm
<poningru> kb theCore porfavor
<Seveas> mdke_, feel free to kickban theCore, he has been annoying on other channels too
<mdke> Seveas, thanks for the permission
<Seveas> mdke, rofl 
<Seveas> that was quite badly stated
<Seveas> almost sounded like i'm the policeman here :s
<mdke> it did indeed
<Seveas> didn't mean it that way
<Seveas> I should get some sleep :/
<Seveas> too much irc work today
<Seveas> my apologies
* mode/#ubuntu-doc [-o mdke]  by ChanServ
<mdke> np
<poningru> ok theCore still remains
<Seveas> poningru, as long as he's not misbehaving: why not 
<mdke> likely to be someone else on his computer
<poningru> oh really?
<poningru> didnt think about that nm then
<Seveas> I'm even inclined to believe that, he never caused trouble before
<mdke> he's a valuable member of this channel, at any rate
<mdke> theCore, an explanation wouldn't go amiss though
<theCore> argh, not again!
<Seveas> theCore, you should lock your pc when you walk away from it 
<poningru> theCore: what happend?
<poningru> child and/or little sibling?
<theCore> Seveas: I forgot
<theCore> my brother again ...
<mdke> np, figured as much
<Seveas> theCore, you should re-join #ubuntu and #ubuntu-offtopic
<theCore> Seveas: if this happen again, kick me as fast as possible
<Seveas> theCore, already did that in those channels 
<Seveas> be glad you have a good reputation, otherwise the "it was my brother" excuse wouldn't help ;)
<LaserJock> theCore: again? bummer dude
<theCore> Seveas: btw, how do I remove my away status
<theCore> LaserJock: yes, him again
<Seveas> theCore, /away
<LaserJock> has he been unpluging your computer still?
<theCore> Seveas: thanks
<theCore> LaserJock: I got a laptop now, tough to unplug ;)
<theCore> now he is laughing at me ...
<crimsun> LaserJock: have you committed lately? I can't check yet.
<LaserJock> crimsun: not since last night.
<crimsun> ok. I pulled earlier, so I'll try to get to that if my Internet connectivity cooperates.
<LaserJock> crimsun: I haven't had a chance to commit the "getting started" diff yet. I probably will soon
<LaserJock> crimsun: as long as you keep doing one file at a time I think it will be fine.
<theCore> LaserJock: I wrote something for the PG, today
<theCore> LaserJock: it's about how modify existing packages
<LaserJock> theCore: ah, send the diff if you can
<theCore> LaserJock: well, that the point, it still as plain text
<theCore> LaserJock: and I'm still wandering where I could include it
<LaserJock> theCore: Updating Packages
<theCore> LaserJock: it's not really about how to update package for the reposistory, but for making local changes to packages
<LaserJock> theCore: what do you mean by local changes
<theCore> LaserJock: doing package for yourself
<LaserJock> theCore: is it very long?
<theCore> LaserJock: no, but I want to add more stuff in it
<LaserJock> theCore: so maybe we should wait for after the branch and add it to Dapper+1
<theCore> LaserJock: that's my plan
<LaserJock> theCore: ok, cool. just send it to me when your done
<theCore> LaserJock: I will do some exercises too
<LaserJock_away> hmm, did anybody happen to see my Visibility of "how to contribute" email to -doc?
<Burgundavia> LaserJock_away: yep
<LaserJock_away> Burgundavia: did it make sense, or am I totally off-base?
<Burgundavia> I really only skim read it
<Burgundavia> I will reread it now
<Burgundavia> LaserJock_away: do you have a laptop that runs dapper
<Burgundavia> ?
<LaserJock_away> no, Windows :(
<Burgundavia> ah, you poor bastard
<Burgundavia> I had some concrete ideas for the fridge that died due to lack of time
<LaserJock_away> I've got 1 Windows laptop, 1 Windows desktop, 1 Dapper desktop, and 1 OSX intel mac at work
<Burgundavia> basically a "Doc of the wiki on the wiki"
<LaserJock_away> I really need to get aquanted with the Dapper docs so I can start referencing them more
<LaserJock> I'm sorry my email is so long. I get very wordy in email it seems.
<crimsun> LaserJock: ping
<LaserJock> yoh
<LaserJock> crimsun: pong
<crimsun> LaserJock: http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/packagingguide/C/ch05s02.html#id2577039   -> The end of the first paragraph of Confirming problems seems ... odd
<crimsun> Did you mean that to be a <title> instead?
<crimsun> i.e., instead of: Forwarding bugs upstream </para>, use: <title>Forwarding bugs upstream</title>
<LaserJock> crimsun: ah, probably. I copy-n-pasted most of that section and then docbookized it
<crimsun> ok.
<LaserJock> crimsun: are you all the way to the Bugs section?
<crimsun> LaserJock: this is the third file I'm editing
<crimsun> (I rarely edit sequentially for the first pass)
<Burgundavia> ok, I am now officially scared. Canadians now have a Minister for Public Safety
<LaserJock> why is that scary Burgundavia 
<Burgundavia> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Committee_of_Public_Safety
<Burgundavia> everybody knows that minitries with names like "information" and "truth" and "public safety" usually do the opposite of what they appear
<crimsun> it was only a matter of time
<LaserJock> heh, I can imagine. That must be why they use Secretary in the uS
<LaserJock> crimsun: man, your good. Thanks for the editing help.
<LaserJock> arghh, has anyone noticed that in yelp the sidebar uses <title> to set the section title but the TOC uses xreflabel ?
<Madpilot> Burgundavia, nice political comment on the vlug list :P
<LaserJock> Madpilot: how many vlug members are there?
<Burgundavia> Madpilot: had to get my digs in
<Burgundavia> LaserJock: 35
<Madpilot> no idea, actually. VLUG = Victoria Linux Users, btw
<Burgundavia> ish
<LaserJock> Madpilot: I know, I've been around you and Corey long enough ;-)
<Burgundavia> about 20 actually show up at meetings
<LaserJock> I've never been to a LUG
<LaserJock> I think there is one 2 hrs drive away from me, over the mountains in California
<Burgundavia> oh, wow --> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Airplane_vortex_edit.jpg
<LaserJock> that is a nice pic
<Madpilot> Burgundavia, and people think aerodynamics are boring
<Madpilot> :P
<LaserJock> heh, don't tell that to my grandpa, he built rockets in the 50's
<LaserJock> man on the moon with a slide rule kinda guy
<Madpilot> cool
<Madpilot> Cessnas are pretty tame, compared to rockets
<LaserJock> he gave me his old slide rule and log tables not long ago
<LaserJock> pretty cool
<Madpilot> (but the Flying Club's new 172 is very shiny, and has very, very nice avionics)
<LaserJock> lol, the only Cessna I've been in the first thing the pilot says is, "This thing is from Vientnam so if the door falls off it's ok"
<Madpilot> I've had doors unlatch in flight on older 152s, it's not a big deal. The slipstream means it won't open too far, just an inch or so
<Burgundavia> ok, this touchpad issue is driving me nuts
<Burgundavia> basically for about 3 seconds of out of 10, it simply stops responding
* bhuvan joins ubuntu-motu
* mdke sighs at sounder
<mdke> every time you think a thread is gonna go quiet, some guy pops up and feels that he needs to reply to each mail on the thread separately
<Madpilot> mdke, which thread? The long and getting silly "sudo is evil" thread?
<Kamping_Kaiser> heh. still going? (hasnt read email for 3 days)
<mdke> yes
<Madpilot> you're not missing anything, Kamping_Kaiser 
<mdke> I've got like 20 mails from one guy on the same thread
<mdke> pah
<Kamping_Kaiser> Madpilot: <grin> so it seems
<Madpilot> apparently we're all supposed to have root accounts, with long and complicated passwords, to protect us from sudo - or something like that, anyway
<mdke> looks like kubuntu.de is carrying out its threat
<mdke> weirdos
<mdke> highvoltage, nice blog post
<robotgeek> morning authors
<highvoltage> mdke: thanks, not sure how ppl would respond to it
<robotgeek> hey highvoltage 
<highvoltage> hi robotgeek 
* robotgeek wonders how much time jdub will take :)
<robotgeek> highvoltage: how easy is to not make all posts get aggregated on p.u.c
<highvoltage> robotgeek: what do you mean?
<robotgeek> highvoltage: say, if i don't want every blog post of mine to go to planet.ubuntu.com
<highvoltage> hmmm... i don't know.
<robotgeek> highvoltage: nvm, i'll ask seth. i think he did something similiar on wordpress, which is my blogging "platform"
<Kamping_Kaiser> do we have anything in the docs about how ubuntu Kubuntu+xubuntu are all the same system with a different ui? i just staretd to wonder now freeze has pasted ;)
<robotgeek> Kamping_Kaiser: hmm, in the intro. 
<Kamping_Kaiser> * -d
<robotgeek> Kamping_Kaiser: but they are not, really :)
<Kamping_Kaiser> robotgeek: repeat after me "they are" ;)
* robotgeek lurves his blue desktop 
<robotgeek> Kamping_Kaiser: well, anyways it does say in KDG that Kubuntu = Ubuntu base + kde
<Kamping_Kaiser> robotgeek: i was thinking more something in /common/ as it should be a shared thing. *looks around the docs*
<robotgeek> Kamping_Kaiser: well, nothing there, i think
<robotgeek> Kamping_Kaiser: cause ubuntu-desktop tell people how to use Kubuntu, and vice versa :)
<mpt> robotgeek, set up an "Ubuntu" category and get Planet to syndicate that instead of syndicating your entire Weblog
<robotgeek> mpt: awesome, i gotta find jdub though. i already emailed him twice 
<mdke> I'm not sure that planet supports categories
<mdke> you might have to use a filter on topic
<robotgeek> let me check if i can get categoru feeds  :)
<mpt> yes, that's what I mean
<mpt> In WordPress, every category has its own feed automatically
<mdke> ah, well that will work
<mpt> and afaik, Planet only knows about feeds, not about Weblogs and categories and such
<mdke> the only thing planet doesn't manage to do is to separate categoriesw in a single feed
<mdke> a separate feed would work fine
* robotgeek will reverse the feedburner hack when jdub fings him
<robotgeek> pings, err
<robotgeek> mpt: thanks, that was easy :)
<mdke> hi Unfrgiven
<mdke> just noticed you've applied for the ubuntu-doc launchpad group
<mdke> that group is the people who have access to the ubuntu-doc repository, I'm afraid we ask for people to submit some patches before granting access. You're very welcome to do so!
<mdke> once you get granted svn access, you'll be added to the Launchpad group
<Unfrgiven> mdke: Hi
<Unfrgiven> mdke: I have been submitting patches to the Ubuntu Packaging Guide
<Unfrgiven> mdke: I've been sending them to Laserjock
<mdke> Unfrgiven, cool! It would be good if you send them to the mailing list too, that way people can get to know you :)
<Unfrgiven> mdke: I wrote the original IntroDeveloperDocs document from which the current Ubuntu Packaging Guide borrows pieces from
<mdke> even cooler
<Unfrgiven> mdke: yeah sorry about that. LaserJock told me to send diffs to him directly
<Unfrgiven> mdke: i was hoping to become a member of the doc team so that I could upload my changes directly to svn. Laserjock said he was ok with this but i needed to be authorised.
<Unfrgiven> mdke: in your eyes, am I eligible to be part of the team? or do I need to sumit patches to the list?
<mdke> Unfrgiven, I think we'd prefer you to submit some patches on the mailing list first, that way we can see that you know what you're doing with docbook xml and so on. It may be a formality, but I think it would help
<mdke> Unfrgiven, also, are you an ubuntu member?
<mdke> we also ask that people get ubuntu membership before granting access
<Unfrgiven> mdke: sure, no problem. would it speed things up if I sent you the patches Laserjock already incorporated? as a way of showing examples of my work?
<mdke> ah, you are
<Unfrgiven> mdke: yeah I am an Ubuntu member - since May 2005.
<mdke> Unfrgiven, no, don't resend the patches, I'm sure Jordan can vouch for you
<mdke> you may be aware that our docs are frozen at the moment in any case, so you won't need commit access immediately :)
<mdke> but definitely hang around on the list, so that we can get to know you and see that you're familiar with our methodologies
<Unfrgiven> mdke: oh yeah thats a good point. Laserjock mentioned that minor changes are still being accepted?
<Unfrgiven> mdke: sure thing, will do.
<mdke> in the case of the packaging guide, we're making some exceptions
<mdke> but it's best if Jordan does those exceptions, as the document's present maintainer
<Unfrgiven> mdke: sure no problem.
<Unfrgiven> mdke: ill send any further diffs to the list from now on
<mdke> Unfrgiven, great! welcome aboard
<Unfrgiven> mdke: thanks :)
<mdke> it will be great to have new blood on the packagingguide :) LaserJock_away has had his work cut out trying to look after it by himself
<Unfrgiven> mdke: yeah he has the poor guy
<onkarshinde> What is general process of cleaning up wiki. Should I add comment to remove a section or striaght away remove it?
<onkarshinde> What is general process of cleaning up wiki. Should I add comment to remove a section or striaght away remove it?
<Kamping_Kaiser> don't spam please
<Kamping_Kaiser> and that would dpend what you mean by "clean up"
<onkarshinde> Sorry for spam. For ex. I just viewed MOTU Candidates page. Some packages have already made into dapper. So I wanted to remove them.
<Kamping_Kaiser> i don't see a problem with removing an entry and commenting to say it's in - you might ike to check with the motus to make sure they don't have a special method for that page
<onkarshinde> ok. Also How can i add multiline comments (changelog) while saving a page? I mean I see sometimes comments with #01, #02 etc in them.
<Kamping_Kaiser> i have no idea bout that I'm afraid
<LaserJock> mdke: ping?
<mdke> yep
<LaserJock> mdke_: quick question about your translations email? how are the translations for the common docs given to both kubuntu-docs and ubuntu-docs?
<mdke_> LaserJock, we get the translations from rosetta and then use them to create translated xml. then the packages get that in the usual way
<LaserJock> mdke_: so the source packages get the translated xml?
<mdke_> LaserJock, yes, everything is done like the english version
<LaserJock> mdke_: ok, I'm getting my brain wrapped around translations :-)
<mdke_> LaserJock, DocumentationTeam/Translation
<LaserJock> now I just need to learn some languages so I can help translate ;-)
<mdke_> :)
<LaserJock> heh, raphink was trying to get me to learn esperanto or  ido
<LaserJock> and I'm trying to get some German in there too
<LaserJock> but it will be Dapper+10  before I could translate
<frank23> LaserJock: yeah translating is hard (technical stuff is even worse) and I basically have 2 native languages
<frank23> LaserJock: If you do a translation that is too literal it just sounds wrong yet you can't stray too much from the original
<LaserJock> frank23: yeah, I can imagine it is tough
<frank23> and I never know if I should translate the technical terms or not.  
<LaserJock> I hope some translations of the packaging guide can be done though, even though it has more technical material
<robotgeek> yay..translation time!
<frank23> the only ubuntu doc I see available to translate in french is the server guide. the others are not available yet?
<mdke> frank23, they are all there. did you follow the links I posted
<mdke> ?
<frank23> mdke: which links?
<LaserJock> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/dapper/+source/ubuntu-docs/+translations
<mdke> frank23, i mailed the links to translate the docs to the ubuntu-doc, ubuntu-translators, loco-contacts and rosetta-users mailing lists
<frank23> mdke: I'll check
<frank23> mdke: yeah it works
<mdke> cool
<frank23> gmail is nice for mailing lists.. It makes threads from the emails
<mdke> yeah, I like that. evolution does it too
<theCore> frank23: any good mail client do that
<frank23> theCore: yeah? KMail too?
<theCore> frank23: well, I don't know
<theCore> frank23: but I bet it does
<frank23> theCore: ok
<theCore> frank23: just dig the docs a little bit, and you will probably find how to set it
<theCore> frank23: else, KMail is not a good mail client
<frank23> theCore: yeah I found the setting for it ;)
<trappist> so does mutt
<trappist> mutt's a great threader
<theCore> trappist: I had Mutt in head when I said good client
<trappist> <3 mutt.  but I'm a kmail guy now.
<LaserJock> I just haven't figured out mutt yet. I'm almost totally useless in it. I do much better with pine at this point, but I'd like to figure mutt out.
<trappist> it's worth figuring out.  much like vim :)
<mdke> is there a mail client like gedit?
<theCore> :D
<theCore> mdke: write a mail client plugin for gedit ;)
<theCore> (good luck)
* mdke pats evolution
<LaserJock> that is the other mail client I haven't figured out. Evo hates my IMAP setup
<LaserJock> so I stick to Mail.app and Thunderbird for the most part
<mdke> i need imap email
<mdke> i'm sick to death of my email provider
<mdke> it only does pop and I get loads of spam
* jenda throws gmail mdke's way
<LaserJock> I recently got a gmail account, I still haven't figured out if I like it
<mdke> i get loads of spam there too :-(
<mdke> but it's japanese spam, so that's nicer than normal spam
#ubuntu-doc 2006-04-16
<mdke> holy shit, the desktop guide is translated to swedish already
<mdke> that's INSANE
<Burgwork> mdke, some people have nothing else to do
<mdke> Burgwork, that sounds a bit harsh, I'm happy it's translated!
<Burgwork> sorry, that should have been  ;P
<mdke> i didn't get many replies to my branching email. I have started thinking its a good idea
<Burgwork> the amount I know about SVN could fit into a shot class
<theCore> maybe, I could translate the Packaging Guide in French
<mdke> theCore, you could, good idea
* theCore fire up emacs
* mdke sighs
<mdke> Burgwork, well I don't know much about it either, but it depends on our policy, rather than svn. The svn part is easy (svn copy), deciding whether to do it or not is the hard part for me
<theCore> ( I just love the small editor war we have here :) 
<mdke> heh
<Burgwork> yes. I was referring more to good practice
<mdke> Burgwork, I was reading the svn manual yesterday, it doesn't say much more than "this depends on your policy"
<LaserJock> mdke: I'm not totally sure of what the options are?
<mdke> so no help there
<mdke> LaserJock, ok. the options are (a) make a branch, and do everything post string freeze in there (translations, removing draft watermarks ;) or (b) carry on going in trunk continuously
<LaserJock> oh, a) sounds much better
<LaserJock> I thought it was tags vs branches or something technical like that
<mdke> ok, if we go with (a), do post-freeze fixes get done in the branch, and later merged back to trunk, or done in both at the same time?
<Burgwork> mdke, ugh
<LaserJock> mdke: for me I would do them same time, there really shouldn't be that many changes, I wouldn't think
<mdke> hope not
<mdke> is now a good time for branching?
<LaserJock> I would think so. I mean, I'll have to apply a couple more diffs from crimsun but I can do that to both no problem
<mdke> ok, let's do it
<mdke> Burgwork, btw, I just saw the weird colour problem in gxine (breezy). It went away when I closed it, killed a stray totem process that I couldn't see, then reopened it
<LaserJock> on the other hand it might be wise to wait until Beta Release/UI Freeze
<LaserJock> April 20th
<mdke> hmm
<LaserJock> I guess the only real reason to do it now would be that some people might be getting eager to start on Dapper+1 docs
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> I'm quite keen to start playing around with translations too, but there is loads of time for that
<LaserJock> If people want to do that (I've been thinking about it) then we can branch now. It just means that we need to be a little more careful about keeping track of changes
<Burgwork> mdke, I had noticed that as well. Maybe gxine and totem don't like running together?
<mdke> Burgwork, totem just plain refuses to play when another instance is open. Dunno why
<Burgwork> oh fun
<Burgwork> isn't multimedia a nice swamp?
<LaserJock> uggh, I just use Windows :(
<mdke> LaserJock, yeah, although that might not be bad practice. After all, if poss changes need to be announced to -translators too
<LaserJock> yeah, I vote we branch now
<mdke> ok, I'll ping daniel about it tomorrow and if he approves, do it
<frank23> theCore: I'll try to work on French translations of the docs too. Do you know if there is a mailing list or forum for the French translators?
<theCore> frank23: I'm a newbie translator, I still have to figure out how to work
<frank23> theCore: J'ai pas rencontr beaucoup de Qubecois ici. ;) Pas que j'en suis un.
<theCore> frank23: et bien, donc t'es surement un francais de France?
<frank23> theCore: No-Brunswickois. 
<theCore> frank23: cool, en passant, parler en francais est mal vu ;)
<frank23> theCore: yeah I know. I wasn gonna continue
<frank23> theCore: you're in Toronto
<frank23> ?
<theCore> frank23: i'm from a small town near Montreal
<frank23> theCore: ok. I've been living in Montreal for close to 3 years now.
<theCore> frank23: well, then you must where St-Anne-de-Bellevue is
<Madpilot> Odd bug I've just been tracking down: https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+bug/39085
<highvoltage> perhaps it's a feature?
<crimsun> I think it's a feature, actually.
<Madpilot> if there's no way to turn it off, it's a bug, not a feature :(
<Madpilot> I don't want it opening ~/Documents just because that directory happens to exist
<highvoltage> true.
<crimsun> interesting, there's the 'show volumes' option in gconf-editor.
* crimsun unchecks and sighs in relief
<Madpilot> uncluttered your desktop finally?
<crimsun> yeah, big time
<Madpilot> anyone got a clue as to which package I should assign that bug to?
<crimsun> nautilus</wild stab>
<crimsun> you should probably ask seb in #ubuntu-desktop in a few hours
<Madpilot> will do - I thought the file dialogues where handled by 'gnome-open', but I can't find that package listed in malone...
<mdke_> Madpilot, dpkg -S is your friend
<mdke_> libgnome2-0: /usr/bin/gnome-open
<Madpilot> ah! thanks
<Unfrgiven> mdke: ping
<mdke> Unfrgiven, pong
<Unfrgiven> mdke: was just reading your mail about branching
<Unfrgiven> once branched, are we able to move changes from one branch to another?
<Unfrgiven> to prevent having to make the same change twice
<mdke> Unfrgiven, yes, changes made as an exception to the freeze should be made in the branch and in trunk, at the same time, how we wish to do that depends. svn copy is a good option
<mdke> trappist, ooh, some rocking reviews from adam on the server guide. Shall we get them in as freeze exceptions?
<mdke> bhuvan, ^^
<bhuvan> mdke, yes
<WaterSevenUb> mdke, following your thread about improving quality, I think my idea https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-translators/2006-April/000442.html can help on improving doc quality. Don't how far you are from automatic generation of localized help in the website, but if you are close enough, it would allow to quick review translated documentation even for the translators that do not use Dapper, therefore not able to quickly see the final do
<WaterSevenUb> cuments.
<WaterSevenUb> Most of them, also do not generate the final documents locally. 
<WaterSevenUb> Experience tells that it is the best way to see if the translations are good or not, looking at the final result.
<mdke> yeah, I had always intended to do this, don't worry
<mdke> I'll answer your mail
<WaterSevenUb> ok, thank you. I share your worries about quality issues, breezy translated docs had some serious problems that are not desirable at all in Dapper. The problems are also present in application translations. A short-term solution might be weekly langpacks and ubuntu-docs to enforce reviews.
<mdke> it's mainly applications my post is directed at, certainly
<bhuvan> mdke, "dapper+1" do you mean next major release ? or patch 1 for dapper ? (pardon me if it sounds silly)!
<mdke> bhuvan, next major release
<bhuvan> so, as i said why cant we make trunk read-only till we start our work for next-release ?
<bhuvan> next-release = dapper+1
<mdke> because work might want to start immediately for that
<mdke> or rather, people might want to start work immediately for that
<bhuvan> ok
* bhuvan is going for a meeting
<mgalvin> jjesse: did you get that email with my reply to eric... i just cc'd you on it rather then re-explaining everything
<jjesse> yeah i did thanks
<mgalvin> sure np
<trappist> mdke: who's adam and where's the review?
<mdke> trappist, he's Adam Conrad and it's on the list, in response to your email
<trappist> oh, I just looked on the list and didn't see it.  I'll look again.
<mdke> ("infinity" on irc, core dev, buildd admin and generally a bit of a god)
<trappist> oh I know him
<trappist> in response to which email?
<mdke> Quick Review
<trappist> oh on THAT list.
<trappist> ok read it.  and having read it, he makes some hella good points that I do think warrant an exception to the string freeze.
<mdke> me too
<mdke> i'm going to set some time aside tonight to implement some, if you can help, that would be lovely
<trappist> why don't you tell me what you had in mind to implement - I'm booked up for tonight, but I should be able to find some time today to get some done.
<mdke> sure thing
<mdke> my tonight is your today anyway
<trappist> ah
<mdke> I'll do LAMP (as suggested by Jerome), and from Adam's: apache, postfix, ssl. I'm not very sure about firewall, samba and ifup/down, can you do any of those?
<jsgotangco> trappist: if you can't get a string exception, make an errata online
* mdke blinks
<jjesse> what was that?
<trappist> I just saw his other reply - there's more to be done than I realized
<mdke> trappist, what are you thinking?
<trappist> nothing worth talking about yet :) between the two of us maybe we can get it knocked out to(day|night)
<mdke> hope so
<jjesse> is this the serverguide you two are talking about?
<trappist> yeah
<mdke> trappist, can you do any of those 3 sections?
<trappist> I can do any of em - just probably not all of them
<mdke> the samba one looks very trivial
<mdke> the biggest thing is ifup/down
<trappist> I agree
<trappist> other than the apache stuff
<trappist> if by biggest you mean most labor-intensive
<mdke> yeah, but the apache stuff should be straightforward, I hope
<jjesse> mdke: question on doc.ubuntu.com shouldn't the server guide have its own section like the packaging guide as it is agnostic to whether it is from a kubuntu install or ubuntu install?
<jjesse> sort of like the packaging guide?
<mdke> jjesse, http://help.ubuntu.com/6.06/
<mdke> trappist, ok, I'll start on apache later and see if I can do the postfix and ssl stuff. See what you can do with the rest, and we'll exchange notes
<trappist> ok
<jjesse> mdke: Ping
<mdke> jjesse, pong
<mdke> jjesse, pong harder
<jjesse> sorry was on a work call
<jjesse> two questions, can we look at the email first?
<mdke> sure
<jjesse> mdke: if you look at the Names of Products and trademakrs section, read it again, Names of products and trademarks and trade protection laws
<mdke> where are we looking?
<jjesse> shouldn't it read something about  Names of prodcuts and trademarks and trade proection laws are?
<jjesse> disclaimer section in about-ubuntu and about-kubuntu
<mdke> let's be specific at what we're looking at, hang on
<mdke> https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/trunk/common/C/disclaimer.xml
<mdke> ok, you're right
<mdke> odd
<jjesse> so the translators at least for about-kubuntu haven't done that part yet
<mdke> how are we going to rewrite this?
<mdke> it's dreadfully drafted
<mdke> how about rewriting that whole paragraph as one sentence:
<mdke>     <para>Some of the software and hardware descriptions cited in this publication may be registered trademarks and may thus fall under copyright restrictions and trade protection laws.</para>
<mdke> or maybe:
<mdke>     <para>Some of the software and hardware descriptions cited in this publication may be registered trademarks and may thus fall under copyright restrictions and trade protection laws. In no way do the authors make claim to any such names.</para>
<jjesse> i like the second better
<mdke> ok. second question?
<jjesse> bug 39111 (https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/kubuntu-docs/+bug/39111)
<jjesse> can i change things without totally messing up translations
<jjesse> just a very minor typo
<mdke> yes
<jjesse> ok so i can change the paragraph in the disclaimer and then change the typo
<jjesse> i just didn't want to sscrew up translations
<mdke> I've done the disclaimer
<mdke> shall I do the typo too? I'll need to upload new translation templates anyway later on, so no problem
<jjesse> thats fine, i'll mark the bug as fix released then
<mdke> okay
<mdke> although it won't be fixed, strictly speaking, until tomorrow
<jjesse> understand
<mdke> good, thanks for pointing that out
<jjesse> welcome
<jjesse> it's awesome to see kubuntu-docs being translated already :)
<LaserJock> mdke: translation has started on the packaging guide in Chinese and French
<LaserJock> mdke: how easy is it for you to upload a new .pot
<jjesse> also the kubuntu desktop guide in chinese
* Burgwork is "Being robbed of the right to speak ones mind" at this very moment
<Burgwork> all because of the CoC
<Burgwork> http://blog.zugschlus.de/archives/373-Debian-loses-DPL-election,-Cabal-wins-by-tiny-margin.html
<Burgwork> ya right!
<mdke> LaserJock, I'm making quite a lot of new pots so we will do the packaging guide too and ask daniel for an upload tomorrow
<trappist> Burgwork: I'm a big fan of the CoC.  I don't think it's necessary to be disrespectful or rude to say what needs saying, even if it's profoundly negative.
<Burgwork> indeed
<Burgwork> civil discourse means stuff gets done
<trappist> I quit debian mostly because so many of that crowd don't see it that way.
<Burgwork> well, the problem is that the most vocal start being rude and the rest leave
<mdke> trappist, uploaded some changes to server guide, i need to do more on apache and postfix still
<trappist> I have thick enough skin, but I have better things to do than filter through insulting tripe to get to the meat of a conversation
<trappist> mdke: ossum
<mdke> I did a find/replace on "refer the" and replaced it with "refer to the", there were like 50 instances
<trappist> mdke: good move.  I always try to fix those where I see em.  there were indeed a lot.
<jjesse> another question as it relates to the kubuntu desktop guide, is there a reason the example of using sudo (kdesu) is to launch konqueror?
<trappist> seems like a good example to me.  maybe I would have chosen kate.
<jjesse> trappist: couldn't you argue that newbies would then delete the wrong files by mistake?
<trappist> jjesse: I don't like those arguments.  no matter what we're doing, there will be newbies doing stuff as root and making mistakes.  if the example were "kdesu kate /etc/X11/xorg.conf" we'd just have a slightly different problem.
<jjesse> trappist: agreed, just presenting an arugement on #kubuntu-devel
<trappist> if it's something requiring kdesu, it's something a newbie can screw up.  it's probably root-only for a good reason.
<trappist> hey, no wonder I'm not a member of ubuntu-server.  it's not listed on lists.ubuntu.com
* mdke experiments with some cheeky commit messages
<LaserJock> ohhhh, I do love cheeky commit messages
<jjesse> oooo hot hungarian action :)
<LaserJock> jjesse: hmm, did you see this  OSNews story about "Kubuntu in Trouble?"
<jjesse> LaserJock: its a misleading title
<LaserJock> jjesse: yeah, I'm pretty dissapointed about how OSNews covered that
<jjesse> what happened is the kubuntu.de group is having issues with somethings (missing username/password) on the kubuntu.org server and has threatened to close things down if they don't get the username/password
<jjesse> from what i read on kubuntu-users and kubuntu-devel Riddell seems a little pissed at them, but i cna't tell tone of voice in email
<LaserJock> jjesse: it turned into  this "Kubuntu is dead" thing
<jjesse> LaserJock: i know i read the thread, and the threads on kubuntu-users kubuntu-devel
<mdke> it doesn't seem just to be a username/password issue
<mdke> the account for amu has been setup again and they are continuing the protest
<mdke> seems like an argument over money to me
<jjesse> well it started out as a protest over a username password
<mdke> someone is upset that they're not getting paid, or are not being reimbursed for expenses that they have undertaken
<jjesse> i would agree that it has moved on to a money thing
<mdke> I can't believe they haven't just asked the CC to assist them, it really annoys me
<jjesse> most of the people that i've talked to are annoyed by the way the did things
<mdke> terrible.
<mdke> hey trappist 
<mdke> actually unping, I think I understand
* trappist unpongs
<mdke> trappist, doesn't hurt to ask
<mdke> trappist, the postfix ssl section describes producing 4 files (cakey.pem, cacert.pem, smtpd.key, smtpd.csr). Do I put cakey.pem and smtpd.key in /etc/ssl/private and the other two in /etc/ssl/certs?
<mdke> i will try and test the instructions
<trappist> actually I don't know there.  I mentioned in my email that I'd never done it like that.
<mdke> I'll see what I can do to test
<mdke> trappist, are you gonna have any luck with ifup/down? I don't wanna take it on because I know zilch about it.
<trappist> I'll take it, but today's a busy-ish day at work, so I won't get to any docs until later... if I'm lucky
<mdke> trappist, ah, ok. I'll hold off for a while on making the new translation templates then
<Burgwork> mdke, what is the issue with ifup/down?
<mdke> Burgwork, it's not used in the "configure network" section of the server guide
<Burgwork> ah, it should be
<trappist> the idea is it should be geard toward /etc/network/interfaces rather than route/ifconfig/resolv.conf etc.
<mdke> yep
<trappist> *geared
<mdke> trappist, any objections if I do the branch this evening? If you don't have much bandwidth, just do any changes you have time for in trunk, and I'll merge them tomorrow
<trappist> I've got plenty of bandwith.  I don't mind a branch at all.
<mdke> yippe
<mdke> actually, it shouldn't take any bandwidth should it? svn is clever
<mdke> was forgetting that
<robotgeek> cheap copies
<mdke> heya robotgeek 
<robotgeek> hey mdke trappist 
<LaserJock> mdke: what is "this evening" for you?
<LaserJock> hi robotgeek 
<mdke> LaserJock, well, now
<trappist> robotgeek
<LaserJock> mdke: k
<mdke> LaserJock, is that alright?
<jjesse> mdke: did you see my note to exclude adept guide
<mdke> jjesse, I don't think so. Exclude it from what?
<LaserJock> mdke: not really, I'm still waiting on one more patch but that will be a few hours anyway, and I have no problem with making the changes in both branch and trunk
<jjesse> it doesn't need to move to branch
<jjesse> as it is a work in progress
<jjesse> if possible
<mdke> jjesse, that's ok. I'm just going to move everything over. Then things which don't belong there can either be (a) deleted, or (b) left there
<mdke> if it is a complete no-go for dapper, we can delete it, it does no harm to reduce the size of the source packages
<jjesse> well things like quicktour and adeptguide shouldn't be included
<mdke> I'll copy them over, then we can delete anything that isn't going in to dapper
<mdke> k?
<LaserJock> mdke: yeah, that source package is quite large
<mdke> LaserJock, it's all images I think. I'm gonna cut it down now
<mdke> man, the default editor on our server is mc! how do I change that?
<LaserJock> not sure but I got stuck using it the other day :(
<LaserJock> you should be able to "export EDITOR=" in your .bashrc but I think /etc/alternatives/ is the place to change it system-wide
<mdke> I wish there was a gedit for the command line
<LaserJock> heh
<mdke> ok, so in this branch, I'll delete all the stuff jjesse doesn't want in kubuntu
<mdke> are we agreed that xubuntu and edubuntu carry on work in trunk, so I delete that too for the time being?
<LaserJock> is any of the xubuntu and edubuntu stuff in trunk going to be shipped with dapper?
<mdke> yes
<mdke> i thought they might like to come into the branch later though
<mdke> because they're not affected by the freeze
<LaserJock> they aren't? how nice :-)
<mdke> (they won't get translated)
<LaserJock> yeah, then that seems resonable
<mdke> ok
<jjesse> mdke: thanks for taking care of it
<mdke> jjesse, any time
<mdke> jjesse, quickguide can go too, right?
<jjesse> correct
<mdke> jjesse, switching?
<mdke> kinstallguide?
<mdke> installguide? (?)
<jjesse> make it easier, only things that should go are what was included in the package :)
<mdke> :)
<mdke> jjesse, I've done this: http://kubuntu-docs.pastebin.com/654330
<mdke> just check it's ok
<mdke> I'm nervy
<jjesse> looks good
<jjesse> gotta run :)
<mdke> bye
* mdke savages the branch
<mdke> damn, svn obviously isn't as clever as I hoped
* mdke 's internet connection struggles through a host of kubuntu images
<Burgwork> mdke, "you have red on you?"
<mdke> Burgwork, mm?
<Burgwork> mdke, you missed a spot...
<mdke> heh
<mdke> mgalvin, hi.
<mdke> mgalvin, i've deleted all of the images from the new branch which were under ubuntu/images/C (they are still in trunk). Did you need any of those for the release notes?
<mgalvin> mdke: ok, no, i will need to take new screenshots anyway so no worries
<mdke> mgalvin, great
<mdke> it's reduced the source package size from over 15MB to 700K, so that's nice
<mdke> now we just need someone to do the same for kubuntu *nudges robotgeek*
<mgalvin> gesh, well thats good
<Burgwork> I need a quick opinion on screenshots
<Burgwork> should I shot dapper for /Website/Desktop and have it future proofed?
<mdke> what is "future proofed"?
<mgalvin> i would not take the screenshots yet... the artwork will certainly change again
<Burgwork> ya
<Burgwork> I do not have a take them again up dapper release
* mdke boggles
<Burgwork> as I would like to be able to get that bleeding wiki page onto the website
<Burgwork> so I can move on to other website work
<robotgeek> mdke: can i do it later tonight?
<mdke> robotgeek, I don't know. If you can, that would certainly rock
* robotgeek will write a script for it
<mdke> robotgeek, svn rm * :)
<mdke> I did: svn rm *; svn revert thisone.png
<robotgeek> mdke: oh, all of them are unused?
<mdke> there was _one_ in the ubuntu directory that gets installed
<robotgeek> lol
<trappist> mdke: work day is over and we're celebrating this evening (fiancee got a new job) so I won't be able to hit docs until tomorrow.  possibly late tonight, but I can't count on it.
<trappist> I'm all out of string-freeze excuses with her for a while :)
<mdke> trappist, np, congratulations to her.
<trappist> thanks
* trappist &
<mdke> fiancees rock
<robotgeek> trappist: have fun!
<trappist> thanks robotgeek 
<mdke> robotgeek, actually, it's pretty likely they are all unused: the only Ubuntu one was for the header in the html, and kubuntu gets its header from kde
#ubuntu-doc 2007-04-09
<CIA-12> Ubuntu Documentation: philbull * r4085 ubuntu/about-ubuntu/C/about-ubuntu.xml: Changed RedHat > Red Hat, should resolve 104534
<Jisao> No translatable templates available
<Jisao> Feisty xchat does not have any strings to be translated through Rosetta. If you think this is incorrect, please send an email to the Rosetta mailing list or file a bug in our bug tracking system so we can look into the problem. Thanks.
<Jisao> What would be required for translation?
<LaserJock> hmm, a .pot file I think
<Jisao> And how is a .pot file provided?
<LaserJock> usually in the package
<LaserJock> hmm, that could be do to xchat going from Main to Universe
<Jisao> ok. but then how is the translation being tracked, like who does what?
<LaserJock> I don't think Universe packages are automatically translated
<LaserJock> Jisao: for Main packages it's put into the lang packs
<Jisao> I don't know. I know that xchat-gnome comes with Ubuntu, but I don't like it at all. So I use xchat
<LaserJock> right
<Jisao> Well, it's getting complicated.  They had a nice simple invitation to translate, but the >how<  gets involved.
<LaserJock> who had an invitation? ubuntu?
<Jisao> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/feisty/+sources/xchat/+translate
<Jisao> That link was available from the help menu of the xchat app.
<LaserJock> right
<LaserJock> so xchat doesn't have any translatable material in Rosetta right now
<Jisao> Doesn't look like it.
<nixternal> xchat is translated upstream
<Jisao> upstream^
<Jisao> ?
<nixternal> the xchat developers have translation completed by them or their translators
<nixternal> Ubuntu doesn't translate for them
<Jisao> oh. I see.
<Jisao> Thank you for the information.
<nixternal> no problem
<ubotu> New bug: #104764 in kubuntu-docs (main) "Kubuntu-docs: Incorrect strings in games.  " [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/104764
<CIA-12> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal * r4086 kubuntu/games/C/games.xml: closes 104764
<CIA-12> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal feisty * r4087 /kubuntu/firefox-startpage/kindex-ku.html: Kubuntu FF Kurdish translation
<CIA-12> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal feisty * r4088 /kubuntu/firefox-startpage/kindex-ar.html: Kubuntu FF Arabic translations
#ubuntu-doc 2007-04-10
<CIA-12> Ubuntu Documentation: philbull * r4089 ubuntu/games/C/games.xml: Tidy-up and review of games.xml
<jjesse> evening
<nixternal> morning
<nixternal> ;p
<nixternal> you see someone on the mailing list took the packaging guide and turned it into an mp3/ogg for those visually impaired
<jjesse> no haven't read that yet
<nixternal> that is awesome, and I think we need to scoop him up and have him do the rest. That would put Ubuntu way ahead of the accessibility work right there
<nixternal> having our docs available to those who are visually impaired
<nixternal> mdke: ^^ Matt A - mailing list - converted theh packaging guide into an mp3/ogg. great idea I think, he is looking at if it is possible to get some help hosting them or what not
<tonyyarusso> nixternal: While it would take a lot more time, it would be really great if we could get people to actually read them and record them in a human voice.
<nixternal> that would be cool
<nixternal> that would be damn cool actually
* tonyyarusso ponders
<tonyyarusso> I don't think I have a decent mic though
<mpt> Should <https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam> be replaced by <http://doc.ubuntu.com/>?
<ubotu> New bug: #104966 in kubuntu-docs (main) "Kubuntu-docs: Incorrect string in games (#99)" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/104966
<CIA-12> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal * r4090 kubuntu/add-applications/C/add-applications.xml: closes 104966
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* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-doc.log
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-doc.log
<ubotu> New bug: #105211 in ubuntu-docs (main) "Users and Groups documentation in feisty's ubuntu-docs is incorrect" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/105211
#ubuntu-doc 2007-04-11
<CIA-12> Ubuntu Documentation: mdke feisty * r4091 /debian/ (changelog control rules): pitti's patch
<ubotu> New bug: #105446 in kubuntu-docs (main) "Kubuntu-docs: faulty string (#46) in keeping-safe" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/105446
<ubotu> New bug: #105525 in ubuntu-docs (main) "about ubuntu menu item missing" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/105525
<CIA-12> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal * r4092 kubuntu/keeping-safe/C/keeping-safe.xml: closes 105446
<ubotu> New bug: #105378 in ubuntu-docs (main) "SASL authentication failure Ubuntu 6.10" [Medium,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/105378
<locolbd> how can i access this file alsa-kernel/Documentation/ALSA-configuration.txt.
<locolbd> how can i access this file alsa-kernel/Documentation/ALSA-configuration.txt.
#ubuntu-doc 2007-04-12
<jjesse> nixternal: ping
<jjesse> K Menu is refered as KMenu officially correct?
<CIA-12> Ubuntu Documentation: bhuvan * r4093 generic/serverguide/C/mail.xml:
<CIA-12> Ubuntu Documentation: Fix for issue 105378.
<CIA-12> Ubuntu Documentation: * generic/serverguide/C/mail.xml
<CIA-12> Ubuntu Documentation:  In postfix section, turn off chroot for smtp.
<nixternal> jjesse: KMenu is correct
<ubotu> New bug: #73179 in ubuntu-docs (main) "Table 8-1 of system documentation incomplete. " [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/73179
<chell> hi everyone
<CIA-12> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal feisty * r4094 /kubuntu/libs/shipped-docs: for the translation script
<CIA-12> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal feisty * r4095 /kubuntu/ (translate.sh unpack_translations.sh): translation scripts copied over for Kubuntu
<shirish> is there any documentation anywhere, I could not find one on the wiki how to chroot to hdd disks in case of failures while upgrading, installing etc.
<nixternal> mdke: man, I just downloaded all of the translations for kubuntu, ran the unpack script, and it didn't unpack a thing, but it did delete everyone of my downloads. today is not a good day for me
<nixternal> mdke: with some subtle hacking of teh translations scripts, it seems to be working now. There seem to be quite a few silly validity errors, which will all be easy fixes
<nixternal> so hopefully I will have this somewhat complete today I hope
<shirish> nixternal: can I have ur attention for a moment?
<nixternal> shirish: kind of, I am in the middle of a class right now, but shoot
<shirish> nixternal: in that case, just ping me after the class is finished, studies are more important
<nixternal> hehe
<nixternal> not these studies though :)
<nixternal> I can multitask
<shirish> oh ok, in that case where should I be shooting off my mouth If I am looking for documentation which is not in the wiki
<nixternal> shirish: the mirror ;p  if there isn't documentation on the wiki that isn't there, you are free to add it
<shirish> nixternal: I know the topic but not the process , its also not in yelp , is there some central bin where I can find if the documentation I am looking is being submitted or has been submitted by somebody in some manual or the other?
<nixternal> not really. if you search for the topic on help.ubuntu.com/community/ and you don't find it, then nobody is working on it
<shirish> nixternal: dang its also not in man pages, just a mere reference to it
<nixternal> what topic are you referring to?
<shirish> nixternal: chroot
<nixternal> ahh
<shirish> nixternal: there is a short man of it but thats it I have info installed but cannot find it
<nixternal> packaging guide has a little bit of info on it, there is info on the developer wiki wiki.ubuntu.com in the MOTU section I believe
<shirish> nixternal: thanx, looking it up btw can u gimme a link about the packaging guide?
<shirish> ok scratch that, found the packaging guide
<nixternal> hehe, ok
<nixternal> man, these scripts for translations are not working for me
<nixternal> all they are doing is garbling up my directories
<shirish> nixternal: found my solution https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LivecdRecovery :)
<shirish> nixternal: btw is info being deprecated or something?
<nixternal> it shouldn't be
<shirish> curious, cause whenever I am trying info <some command> all I get is the man-page . And I think I do have the info package installed
<shirish> nixternal: I did try sudo aptitude install info which returned nothing, is there any package to be installed
<CIA-12> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal feisty * r4096 /kubuntu/about-kubuntu/ (130 files in 65 dirs): translations
<CIA-12> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal feisty * r4097 /kubuntu/add-applications/ (79 files in 40 dirs): translations
<nixternal> here comes the biggen! watch out
<CIA-12> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal feisty * r4098 /kubuntu/ (1298 files in 649 dirs): translations
<nixternal> ouch
<nixternal> and here comes yet another biggy
<CIA-12> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal feisty * r4099 /kubuntu/ (789 files in 18 dirs): po additions
<CIA-12> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal feisty * r4100 /kubuntu/add-applications/sv/add-applications.xml:
<CIA-12> Ubuntu Documentation: this little guy got through the last translations go round - if you are reading
<CIA-12> Ubuntu Documentation: this in the commit log then I would recommend skipping the previous posts as
<CIA-12> Ubuntu Documentation: they are quite large - that is your warning - on another note, I will fix the
<CIA-12> Ubuntu Documentation: broken validation on the translations after class
<CIA-12> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal feisty * r4101 /kubuntu/ (5 files in 5 dirs): validation fixes - silly script to help me go through and validate each shipped doc instead of doing 1 by 1
<ploum> hello
<ploum> I writing some doc here in french for Feisty installation
<ploum> can somebody point me at or send me screenshots of the installation of nvidia and fglrx drivers ?
<ploum> I don't have the hardware to do that myself
<ploum> (my mail is ploum at ubuntu.com)
<ploum> thanks in advance
<somerville32> ploum: Where are you planning to use this documentation?
<ploum> in a french printed newspaper
<ploum> if required, I will not use those screenshot in the printed version but I want to be able to explain it so I need a screenshot to see how it is :-)
<ploum> Because I think in feisty, you can do that with the restricted-manager
<ploum> I know well the command line process
<CIA-12> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal feisty * r4102 /kubuntu/val.sh: fix - run it as - sh val.sh dir/
<Burgwork> ploum: got a computer with an nvidia card?
<Burgwork> ploum: simply go to teh desktop effects thing and try and enable it
<somerville32> ploum: There are tons of screenshots on the web. I'm sure a quick google search will return more then enough results.
<ploum> somerville32: from the feisty install ?
<ploum> I didn't find anything on the ubuntu wiki
<somerville32> ploum: Try google image search
<ploum> somerville32: I can only find pictures of Beryl
<ploum> but, is this true that you can install nvidia and ati drivers without the command line now ?
<somerville32> Yes
<ploum> only via de restricted drivers manager ?
#ubuntu-doc 2007-04-13
<CIA-12> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal feisty * r4103 /kubuntu/basic-concepts/ (6 files in 6 dirs): fixed validation issues - translations
<CIA-12> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal feisty * r4104 /kubuntu/games/es/: severly broken - need to redownload es translations for games
<CIA-12> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal feisty * r4105 /kubuntu/ (12 files in 12 dirs): seems everything validates now translation wise
<CIA-12> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal feisty * r4106 /kubuntu/games/po/es.po: new Spanish po to try and recreate corrected docs
<CIA-12> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal feisty * r4107 /kubuntu/games/es/ (. games.xml): Spanish games are still broken, validated by removing a majority of the KDE Strategy Games Section
<nixternal> mdke_: ^^^^^  Spanish translations for Kubuntu Games section is mangled badly
<nixternal> the entire KDE Games Startegy Section is hosed
<nixternal> WOOT!
<nixternal> All docs validate, need Spanish games fixed and need to find out why sl.po was rejected by Rosetta
<nixternal> damn, Slovenian translations for keeping-safe are being rejected by Rosetta
<nixternal> if I don't hear anything within the next 4 hours, prepare for bug reports, as the package will be done tonight and shipped
<CIA-12> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal feisty * r4108 /kubuntu/games/es/games.xml: manually added missing\/broken strings for Spanish translations - good to go
<mdke_> nixternal: if you give me the error you are seeing for the spanish thing I might be able to help I suppose
<ubotu> New bug: #106149 in kubuntu-docs (main) "Kubuntu-docs: Faulty string (#17) in office" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/106149
<ubotu> New bug: #106152 in kubuntu-docs (main) "Kubuntu-docs: Faulty string (#54) in printing" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/106152
<Admiral_Chicago> is bug #106149 fix commited? latest SVN update seem to tell me so
<ubotu> Malone bug 106149 in kubuntu-docs "Kubuntu-docs: Faulty string (#17) in office" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/106149
<Admiral_Chicago> perhaps someone can also look at bug #106152
<ubotu> Malone bug 106152 in kubuntu-docs "Kubuntu-docs: Faulty string (#54) in printing" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/106152
<Admiral_Chicago> I added a patch for it
<nixternal> mdke_: I fixed the spanish issue by manually copying over the strings from the .po to the .xml. There was no error at all, it just made a nasty xml section
<nixternal> the only issue now is Slovenian translations
<nixternal> Admiral_Chicago: with Kubuntu docs, if they aren't fix committed, then it means I didn't fix it yet
<CIA-12> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal * r4109 kubuntu/printing/C/printing.xml: closes 106152
<Admiral_Chicago> nixternal: i didn't see a problem in the docs though
<nixternal> the OO.o issue was a duplicate bug from last month that was already fixed
<nixternal> the other one, the scanner one was bogus
<Admiral_Chicago> ah okay that's probably why
<Admiral_Chicago> bogus how
<nixternal> it said printer instead of scanner
<Admiral_Chicago> oh yea, that was one of those 2 second fixes
<nixternal> argh, I need one translation file damnit, the Slovenian translation for keeping-safe and Rosetta will not give it me
<Admiral_Chicago> took me longer to attach it than to make it
<Admiral_Chicago> i saw that in our channel
<CIA-7> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal feisty * r4110 /kubuntu/ (19 files in 19 dirs): lang files is similar to libs/shipped-docs - it contains all of the translations for that directory - used in the Makefile which has been updated as well
<CIA-7> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal feisty * r4111 /kubuntu/Makefile: Makefile cleaning
<CIA-7> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal * r4112 kubuntu/Makefile: Makefile cleaning
#ubuntu-doc 2007-04-14
<ploum> ello
<ploum> hello, sorry
<ploum> I read that universe and multiverse are enabled by default in feisty
<ploum> but they are not if I install the beta version
<ploum> can someone confirm me this information ?
<dsas> ploum: they should be enabled by default yes
<ploum> dsas: that's great, IMHO
<ploum> so there's no need anymore to document how to enable them ;)
<dsas> ploum: no
<dsas> ploum: well, I'm not sure what happens on upgrading....
<ploum> yes, but here I'm writing an article for fresh installation
<ploum> I will talk about universe/multiverse but in an shorter way
<dsas> ploum: there's a bug on them not being enabled by default, see bug 105511 I'm not sure how many systems it effects
<ubotu> Malone bug 105511 in Ubuntu "Universe and Multiverse not enabled by default on the livecd" [Medium,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/105511
<dsas> reading that bug maybe it only effects the live cd though
<dsas> ploum: see also https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/enabling-additional-components
<dsas> ploum: out of interest what article are you writing?
<ploum> I'm writing an article for a french newspaper
<ploum> well
<ploum> a magazine
<ploum> they want to publish a special Feisty Fawn release
<ploum> and they called me
<dsas> ploum: sounds tres cool
<ploum> well, we will see what it will looks like ;-)
<ploum> but it's a good way to promote Ubuntu
<ploum> it will be delivered with an Ubuntu DVD
<poningru> ploum: wanna join #ubuntu-marketing ?
<ploum> so they asked me what packages they should put besides officials ones
<ploum> poningru: now ?
<poningru> just a general invitation
<ploum> thanks :-)
<ploum> I'm really interested in that !
<ploum> for now, I've little time
<poningru> hehe true
<ploum> but I will consider in my article that universe and multiverse are enabled ! that's cool :-)
<ploum> thanks for the info
<ploum> and thanks for the invitation
* ploum goes back to writing
<poningru> ploum: actually in feisty universe and multiverse are enabled
<ploum> thanks !
<ploum> :-)
<poningru> anyone know what the page is that describes all the install methods?
<poningru> I thought it was anyinstall but I guess its not
<poningru> I also tried install method
<poningru> also how does one comment large sections in wiki?
<poningru> /* doesnt seem to work
<poningru> halp
<dsas> poningru: I don't know that you can, afaik you have to use '#' infront of everything
<poningru> >:(
<nixternal> poningru: # or ##
<poningru> nixternal: that wont take down an entire section will it?
<nixternal> nope, there is no multiline comments with MoinMoin
<nixternal> at least none that I know of
<poningru> grr
<poningru> nixternal: know who packaged beryl?
<nixternal> no I don't, but I think I made him/her made a couple of weeks ago though ;)
<nixternal> s/made/mad a couple...
<poningru> hmm?
<poningru> whatchu do?
<dsas> poningru: uhm, maybe pricechild, I think there was another guy too
<poningru> fixing https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BerylOnFeisty
<poningru> need help for the ati and intel section
<poningru> see i tested on nvidia system
<poningru> but for the other two it needs random stuff added to xorg.conf
<poningru> so not sure if the restricted driver manager or beryl-manager package does that for you
<dsas> no idea, I think I read something about r-m not working for some ati stuff, though I might not have, and it was a while ago
<gabe> hi
<nixternal> BUILD START: 22:00
* nixternal makes that as a mental note
<nixternal> mdke_: --xinclude, that tries to hit up a bunch of common/${cc}.xml in the nwalsh dir under /usr, and it causes the no localization warning.
<nixternal> at 4 hours, kubuntu-docs aren't even at 50% complete
<CIA-7> Ubuntu Documentation: bhuvan * r4113 generic/serverguide/C/vcs.xml:
<CIA-7> Ubuntu Documentation: * generic/serverguide/C/vcs.xml
<CIA-7> Ubuntu Documentation:  Add the section for Bazaar version control system.
<CIA-7> Ubuntu Documentation: Patch by: Ian Clatworthy <ian.clatworthy@internode.on.net>
<_42_> Hello
<mdke_> nixternal: huh?
<CIA-7> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal feisty * r4114 /kubuntu/Makefile: fixed Makefile typo
<CIA-7> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal feisty * r4115 /kubuntu/Makefile: Makefile cleaner
<ubotu> New bug: #106624 in ubuntu-doc "VNCOverSSH font fix has X11/fonts not fonts/X11" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/106624
<nixternal> go elsewhere with your bugs you bot!
#ubuntu-doc 2007-04-15
<CIA-7> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal feisty * r4116 /kubuntu/debian/ (changelog postinst rules): <drumroll>TRANSLATIONS ARE IN</drumroll> - updated debian directory
* nixternal does the happy dance!!!
<jsgotangco> heh
<nixternal> unless something terrible happens between now and release, Feisty dev work is done for me
* nixternal is building qt4, kdelibs4, kdebase4, kdepimlibs4, koffice2, and more to hook up to KDevelop for KDE 4 work
<jsgotangco> bring on the crack
<nixternal> taking a break and heading upstream for a bit
<jsgotangco> we will miss you? :P
<nixternal> oh, I will still be here helping Kubuntu man
<nixternal> I will be doing KDE4 and going through Ubuntu devel mentoring at the same time
<jsgotangco> good for what its worth!
<nixternal> right
<nixternal> damn
<nixternal> don't even finish the conversation
#ubuntu-doc 2008-04-07
<ubotu> New bug: #213104 in ubuntu-docs (main) "Package internet in ubuntu-docs: "press return" instead of "press enter"" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/213104
<LjL> meh :)
<mdke> morning all
<LaserJock> hi mdke
#ubuntu-doc 2008-04-08
<AndrewTheArt> Hey guys, I'd love to join the documentation team - how do I start?
<AndrewTheArt> Hey guys, I'd love to join the documentation team - how do I start?
<kgoetz> AndrewTheArt: hang around, its quit posable no ones around atm
<AndrewTheArt> OK, I'll hang here
<AndrewTheArt> thanks
<kgoetz> np. welcome in :)
<AndrewTheArt> brb actually
<AndrewTheArt> nvm
<sommer> AndrewTheArt: the best place to start with the Doc Team wiki page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam
<sommer> hey kgoetz
<AndrewTheArt> which in turn tells me to go here
<AndrewTheArt> I probably misread it
<sommer> heh, there's also the doc mailing list
<kgoetz> sommer: hey mate
<kgoetz> this channel varies quite a lot in livelyness depending on the time of day
<sommer> join the mentoring program, also the Getting Started Page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/GettingStarted
<sommer> heh, ya my experience is that's it's usually pretty quite
<ubotu> New bug: #213711 in ubuntu-doc "Typo in 8.04 Beta release notes" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/213711
<ubotu> New bug: #213889 in ubuntu-docs (main) "Missing laptop_mode documentation" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/213889
<sommer> hey all, has there been any thought of the doc team doing a session at open week?
<LaserJock> sommer: we did one I remember for the first open week, not sure about last time
<sommer> ah, I don't remember seeing one last time.
<sommer> just wondering since it seems there a lot of new mentees lately :-)
<LaserJock> yeah, but we have to have somebody to run it
<LaserJock> and really if we have mentees maybe we don't need open week so much?
<sommer> heh, that has some logic to it
<LaserJock> I doubt anybody in the doc team would object to a session, but I'm not sure if we really need it as bad as other teams
<awen_> anyone know if it is too late for adding a new translational string? ... just came across a string that wasn't marked for translation
<crimsun> mdke: ^
<crimsun> awen_: I don't think it's too late, since you're referring to a KDE app, yes?
<awen_> crimsun: kde-app, yes. guidance-power-manager to be exact
<crimsun> awen_: I'd hang around for either mdke or LaserJock.  (See also https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationStringFreeze and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NonLanguagePackTranslationDeadline)
<LaserJock> I'm not really sure either
<crimsun> I don't think NonLanguagePackTranslationDeadline is applicable here, since we're not speaking of a menu entry
<LaserJock> what's the specific thing we're talking about?
<crimsun> 17:52        awen_ > ScottK: any reason why we are translating (i18n) "charging" but not "discharging" in g-p-m ... to late to fix that?
<awen_> crimsun: but it wouldn't be a regression ... if it isn't translated it will appear in english (as in the code) right?
<awen_> LaserJock: ^^
<LaserJock> so that's in the g-p-m package right?
<crimsun> awen_: correct
<crimsun> LaserJock: correct
<LaserJock> seems like that would be a low-risk bug fix
<LaserJock> I wouldn't think there would be a freeze on that right now
<LaserJock> you aren't changing the documentation
<awen_> i don't really know how the black magic works ... from using the i18n-function in python to the translation file
<LaserJock> just making  it available for translation
<awen_> LaserJock: not in any way ... just adding i18n around a string
<crimsun> (I guess technically it's the kde-guidance source)
<awen_> crimsun: yeah
<LaserJock> I certainly don't see anything wrong with fixing that
<LaserJock> and you might want to email the ubuntu-translators list once the .pot has been imported to help get that string as well translated as possible
<awen_> LaserJock: okay... i'll go ahead then
<LaserJock> I think the relavent freeze here is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LanguagePackTranslationDeadline
<LaserJock> crimsun: would you agree?
<LaserJock> which is the 17th
<crimsun> LaserJock: that's what I would think
<awen_> okay ... so no the translation teem should be aware of last minute changes like this, eg. no need to email them?
<LaserJock> I would email them just to make sure
<LaserJock> doesn't hurt to give them a "heads up"
<awen_> LaserJock: okay ... ubuntu-translation@l.u.c ?
<LaserJock> awen_: I think it's ubuntu-translators
<LaserJock> but you can check lists.ubuntu.com to make sure
<awen_> LaserJock: you were correct ... thanks for taking your time
<LaserJock> no problem, thanks for looking into the issue
#ubuntu-doc 2008-04-09
<ubotu> New bug: #214518 in ubuntu-docs (main) "ubuntu-docs: about-ubuntu / string 19 / translated string does not show up in help documentation" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/214518
<nixternal> doing translations suck!
<LaserJock> :-)
<nixternal> mdke: did you have any translations that didn't validate? I just ran validation on the kubuntu ones and supposedly all of them validated
<nixternal> kind of hard for me to believe after my experiences the past 2 years
<nixternal> ahh, nevermind, a booboo in my script :)
<mdke> nixternal: yeah, loads
<mdke> nixternal: I have some ideas about improving the translation import experience
<mdke> nixternal: but I've just realised I haven't got time before dinner to explain them, so I'll do it later! :)
<nixternal> I have them all fixed now for Kubuntu docs
<nixternal> mdke: I was thinking about writing a new translation script in python that would automate a lot of stuff, but fixing the imported translations would be the toughest to script
<mdke> nixternal: I don't think translation fixage is possible automatically
<mdke> nixternal: however, carlos is talking about implementing some syntax highlighting or tag validity checking in rosetta for that
<mdke> nixternal: for now there is something we can do
<mdke> nixternal: if you fix the translation directly in the po file, rather than the xml file, then it can be uploaded to rosetta to ensure:
<mdke> (a) that if you need to download translations later on (like for an update) it will be fixed
<mdke> and (b), that you won't get the same error repeating itself over multiple releases: for the next release it will be fixed
<nixternal> is there a way to validate po files at all?
<mdke> nixternal: using translate.sh :)
<nixternal> there wasn't all that much breakage this time around
<nixternal> but fixing some of the breakage is tough due to not knowing the language
<mophead> sweet
<mdke> nixternal: i generally find it's all tag breakage rather than language
<mdke> nixternal: anyhow, if you want to upload any po files to rosetta, you need to update the PO-Revision-Date in the header, that should be sufficient.
<nixternal> ya, it is all tag breakage here as well
<mdke> doing everything in the po file is a good idea because that way we can build the xml at deb build time as I've done for the intrepid branch
<mdke> slims down the package a lot
<mophead> Hello all.  I'm new.
<nixternal> nice
<nixternal> howdy mophead
<mdke> hi mophead, welcome aboard
<mophead> Have you been hearing the talk about making a more accessible documentation?
<mophead> Howdy, yourself! :)
<nixternal> more accessible as inputting it into peoples brains?
<mdke> what do you mean by accessible? and what talk?
<nixternal> man, I nixed common/ and bzr revert will not revert it :)
<mophead> This kind of talk http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/item/5580/ about making the text more accessible for people who are a little less tech savvy
<mophead> In ubuntu speak, "human beings."
<mdke> that post is about the release notes
<mophead> There's also 6662, which I wrote
<mdke> sounds sensible, I agree. that's something for the marketing team really though, I think
<mdke> the docteam doesn't really work on the release notes
<mophead> ok.  But take a look at idea 6662
<mophead> http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/item/6662/
<mdke> mophead: you refer again to the release notes, but I think you're really thinking of the desktop help system
<mdke> mophead: we take care of the desktop help system, and would certainly be interested in any concrete suggestions for improving it
<mophead> Awesome.
<mdke> mophead: we've worked quite a lot over the last year or two on making it understandable for all users
<mophead> cool.  The first thing that I noticed is that, under troubleshooting, the help says "if x, then do y", but never says what to do if not x.
<mdke> troubleshooting in which section?
<mophead> It was the wifi card section on connecting to the internet
<mdke> yeah, that section needs a lot of improvement. We have a bug report about it, I think
<mophead> Really?  Wow.  I wouldn't go so far as to file a bug report
<mdke> yeah, bug reports are essential for us to trace issues
<mophead> I will definitely volunteer to proofread help files for readability
<mdke> mophead: that would be helpful; you can file a bug report for each issue you find and we'll fix it; or even start submitting some fixes of your own
<hypa7ia> mophead: i can show you how to do bug reporting on tuesday
<hypa7ia> it's not hard at all
<mdke> mophead: have a look at the pages under https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/ for info on our processes
<mdke> mophead: and tell us about any issues on those pages too :)
<hypa7ia> mophead: this is leigh btw :)
<mdke> hypa7ia: heya!
<mophead> yes, I know!
<hypa7ia> mdke: hi?
<hypa7ia> mophead: ok good :)
<mdke> hypa7ia: sorry, perhaps you are a different hypatia
<mdke> https://edge.launchpad.net/~hypatia
<mophead> I can start crawling through the documentation wiki.
<mophead> But the thing is, I recognize there is also a need for technical documentation.
<mdke> mophead: technical documentation can be written in a way that is easy to understand too; our aim is that any user can use our help
<hypa7ia> mdke: yup, i'm the other one :) https://edge.launchpad.net/~hypa7ia
<mdke> my bad
<hypa7ia> no worries
<mophead> mdke: that's the trick, yeah.  I guess that's what I'm volunteering for
<mophead> I'm glad that it's something that is on your radar though
<mophead> hypa7ia, if you could guide me, that wou ld be a big help
<mdke> mophead: sure
<hypa7ia> mophead: remind me on tuesday and we'll go over it :)
<mophead> sweet
<hypa7ia> :D
<hypa7ia> LINUX PARTY
<mophead> :D
<nixternal> No localization exists for "config_desktop-ku" or "config". Using default "en".
<nixternal> mdke: ^^
<nixternal> don't get why it is doing the "config_desktop-ku"
<nixternal> in the past it would have just been "ku"
<nixternal> oh man
<nixternal> derr on me
 * nixternal needs to fix the xml files for the correct lang
<nixternal> argh argh argh argh!
<mophead> I'm still not entirely sure how I want to do it
<mophead> But I know I'm a good reader!
<mdke> nixternal: is that because you changed something inside the xml? Maybe you changed the value of &language;?
<nixternal> I didn't change it manually, it was changed with the pot files
<nixternal> po files rather
<mdke> nixternal: erm, that's very odd indeed
<nixternal> it happened in Gutsy as well, I remember fixing it
<nixternal> http://launchpadlibrarian.net/13283459/launchpad-export.tar.gz
<nixternal> there is the kubuntu-docs translations...take a look and see how weird it is
<mdke> nixternal: no problem to report in ubuntu-docs like that
<mdke> it's all language="en" as per the original
<nixternal> <article id="about-kubuntu" status="complete" lang="about-kubuntu-cy">
<nixternal> those get added to all of the translated .xml files
<nixternal> about-kubuntu-cy.po
<nixternal> and that is how the files look from the translation tarball
<mdke> do you rename to po files to cy.po before you use the translate script
<mdke> to/the
<LaserJock> yeah <lang>.po is expected
<nixternal> ya
<nixternal> I forgot to change them first
<mdke> ah, that's why. are you using the same translate.sh as ubuntu?
<nixternal> ya
<nixternal> I will write a quick script to fix that
<nixternal> how do you check out a bzr branch? ie. what is the best way? I have to re-checkout the kubuntu-hardy branch
<mdke> see hack.sh for the rename
<mdke> nixternal: well, "bzr branch url" is the usual way. Some tips are on wiki.u.c/DocumentationTeam/Repository for speeding things up
<nixternal> ya, looking there as well as the bzr bind docs
<mdke> bzr bind doesn't help you with checking a branch out
<nixternal> alright, branch downloading...that should take a week or so :)
<nixternal> I need to go put this desk together while that goes
<nixternal> bbiab
<mdke> nixternal: if you have the ubuntu-docs branch already in a shared repo, getting kubuntu-docs in the same repo will only take a few minutes
<LaserJock> nixternal: I have some scripts in edubuntu-hardy too for tranlsation stuff
<mdke> man there are insane amounts of errors in ubuntu-docs this time round :(
<mdke> this will take a while
<nixternal> I don't want to put this desk together
<nixternal> I wish I knew magic
<mdke> flat packs rock
<nixternal> my goal for Intrepid, is make it much easier to do translations
<mdke> there is no way around it, except if rosetta implements syntax highlighting or checking for translators at the source
<nixternal> I am talking the importing stuff :)
<mdke> and uploading corrected po files, I think that will help
<nixternal> the validation portion is easy enough to fix, just tedious and time consuming
<mdke> nixternal: well, that is already pretty straightforward, to be honest. The renaming bit is just a bug in rosetta
<nixternal> ahhh
<mdke> everything else is done in translate.sh automatically
<nixternal> so lets beat up the rosetta people in getting stuff fixed :)
<mdke> well, it's not hard to do the rename thing either :)
<nixternal> ya, but I am lazy and forgetful obviously
<mdke> but I'll certainly pursue this syntax highlighting/checking idea, it sounds awesome
<nixternal> but, unlike some people, I haven't forgotten my svn password or lost my ssh key :)
<mdke> it's only a matter of time
<mdke> it's the kubuntu way
<nixternal> haha
<nixternal> ooh
<sommer> mdke: should I commit that spelling fix patch, for the serverguide?
<mdke> sommer: yes, go ahead. thanks
<sommer> mdke: cool, will do. thank you
<mdke> sommer: also to the intrepid branch if you don't mind
<mdke> otherwise I'll do that bit
<sommer> yep, I'll apply it there as well
<mdke> great
<mdke> cheers
<mdke> ok, here goes with the supercommit
 * mdke signs off for the night
#ubuntu-doc 2008-04-10
<a8514> Hola a todos.
<kgoetz> morning
<a8514> :)
<a8514> bye :)
<kgoetz> :|
<awen_> don't know if this is the right forum for language support questions, but I'll try anyway... the writing support for the danish language is broken due to the following bug 214969
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 214969 in language-support-writing-da "language-support-writing-da depends on conflicting packages" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/214969
<awen_> any ideas on the best solution for this?
<awen_> probably either the depends on myspell-da or hunspell-da should be removed ... is any of those dictionary-types more used than the other?
<mdke> awen_: I think you need to raise that with the developers, so #ubuntu-devel or the ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list
<awen_> mdke: thanks, I'll try that
<ubotu> New bug: #215025 in ubuntu-doc "server guide / mail filtering error" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/215025
<sommer> mdke: is it possible for me to correct this bug #215025
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 215025 in ubuntu-doc "server guide / mail filtering error" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/215025
<LaserJock> nixternal: ping
#ubuntu-doc 2008-04-11
<nixternal> LaserJock: pong?
<LaserJock> nixternal: are you going to be doing any more kubuntu-docs uploads before release?
<nixternal> nope
<nixternal> unless something is totally broken of course
<LaserJock> sure
<LaserJock> I was just wondering if I should do a final edubuntu-docs
<nixternal> hrmm, I thought you weren't going to?
<crimsun> I'll review k-d tonight
<LaserJock> huh?
<LaserJock> wasn't gonna do what?
<crimsun> upload a final e-d, I presume.
<LaserJock> I would assume I would want to do a final one before it's ... you know, final :-)
<LaserJock> just came back from a graduation party for a good friend
<LaserJock> maybe I had a little too much champagne for nixternal ;-)
<nixternal> hehe
<LaserJock> although I wouldn't think half a glass would do much
<LaserJock> nasty stuff
<LaserJock> sparkling cider is way better
<ubotu> New bug: #215441 in ubuntu-docs (main) "Grammatical errors found in desktop-effects.xml" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/215441
<Flannel> That bug contains no actual grammatical issues.
<Flannel> and most, if not all, of the itemized complaints aren't valid.
<nixternal> those are my favorite bugs!
<j1mc> does anyone know if we have to do a "bzr bind" to the new intrepid branches to prevent commit-history problems like we did with the hardy branch?
<j1mc> hm.  anyone know how to import translations?
<j1mc> i think it's time to do that, right?
<thumper> I found a reference to this channel on some forum post
<thumper> I'm looking for an easy way to generate PDFs from docbook
<thumper> I read that the way to go is via apache fop
<thumper> is that still the case?
<thumper> if it is, are there simple packages to install to get it working?
<LaserJock> I'm not sure
<LaserJock> used to be no because fob is a Java app
<LaserJock> *fop
<LaserJock> but I think I may have seen it go by in hardy-changes
<LaserJock> thumper: ^^
<thumper> LaserJock: thanks
<thumper> LaserJock: so is there a fo2pdf command somewhere?
<LaserJock> I think it does that, but I'm not sure
<LaserJock> let me look real quick if we have a script for it
<LaserJock> thumper: the doc team does have some useful stuff
<thumper> :)
<LaserJock> thumper: in the libs/pdf/ directory
<thumper> LaserJock: of a ubuntu-doc branch?
<LaserJock> yeah, if you don't have one grab intrepid because we started the history over and it will be *much* faster to branch
<thumper> LaserJock: thanks
<LaserJock> thumper: np, hope it helps
<thumper> me too :)
<mdke> thumper: we haven't built pdfs since probably the edgy release so you won't find the actual commands we ran in the branch; I'll try and dig them out for you
<thumper> mdke: thanks
<thumper> that'd be appreciated
<mdke> thumper: aha, if you get the dapper branch (use a DC machine) then you'll find them in ubuntu/Makefile, I'm pretty sure. Just getting the branch myself
<thumper> DC?
<Madpilot> Dapper branch? taking a trip into the Museum of Antique Docs?
<mdke> thumper: I mean datacenter
<mdke> Madpilot: right
<thumper> mdke: how about LP?
<thumper>  bzr branch lp:ubuntu-doc/dapper
<mdke> thumper: i mean, it will be a lot faster to download from a datacenter machine than outside
<mdke> it's a large branch
 * thumper shrugs
<thumper> smaller than LP I bet
<thumper> and I can wait
<mdke> ok
<mdke> thumper: ok, so here is a sample:
<mdke> 	xsltproc --xinclude -o $(LULUBASE)C/serverguide.fo $(LULUSTYLE) ../generic/serverguide/C/serverguide.xml
<mdke> 	fop -c ../libs/pdf/fop.xconf -fo $(LULUBASE)C/serverguide.fo -pdf $(LULUBASE)C/serverguide.pdf
<mdke> 	rm $(LULUBASE)C/serverguide.fo
<thumper> hmm...
<thumper> what do I need to install to get the fop command?
<mdke> thumper: fop, but afaik there isn't an ubuntu package, it needs to be installed by hand
<thumper> :(
<thumper> why not?
<thumper> geez
<thumper> where's a motu when you need one
<mdke> maybe it is now, I don't know
<mdke> it's been some time since we used it
<mdke> thumper: details which should be accurate as at about a year or two ago are here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/BuildingDocumentation/PDF
<thumper> mdke: thanks, I'll check it out
<mdke> the Ubuntu Training team have been converting xml to pdf too, using a different toolchain, I think
<mdke> thumper: you might want to contact them too
<thumper> mdke: billy?
<mdke> thumper: right
<thumper> ok
<thumper> thanks again
<mdke> np
<MagicFab> hi all
<ubotu> New bug: #215662 in ubuntu-doc "Licensing information is not stated / linked from the docs "preview" website" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/215662
<sommer> mdke: any thoughts on bug #215025?
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 215025 in ubuntu-doc "server guide / mail filtering error" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/215025
<MagicFab> sommer, there a bit of missing information in the server guide, regarding JeOS install. Should I just log  a bug ?
<sommer> MagicFab: missing as incorrect, or more details?
<MagicFab> more details - GRUB install fails, which may give the impression the install  is not posssible when in fact LILO can be used (which makes sense in such context)
<MagicFab> Similar to "missing SCSI support" which IMO is a bug but if duly documented can be worked around easily
<sommer> umm... that actually sounds more like an issue with jeos itself, and not a doc bug
<MagicFab> I'll file a bug against jeos, but I am asking here if it's worth changing the doc about that.
<sommer> you could ask in #ubuntu-virt about the grub issue... during my testing grub worked fine :)
<sommer> MagicFab: no, because hopefully the bug will be fixed before release
<MagicFab> nijaba tells me the doc is frozen, though.
<sommer> plus we're basically frozen until release
<MagicFab> Could this be an exception if tha bug is not resolved by release ?
<sommer> heh, correct
<sommer> probably not, because of the time it takes for translations
<sommer> I'd think that grub not working is a pretty major thing, soren in #ubuntu-server or #ubuntu-virt is the one working on jeos and virtualization stuff
<MagicFab> Oh it's already reported. https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-jeos/+bug/215618
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 215618 in ubuntu-jeos "Grub installation fails on JeOS Hardy on KVM Hardy" [Undecided,New]
<sommer> heh, bonus
<sommer> MagicFab: you might ping soren about it, if you're still seeing the problem in the latest jeos version
<MagicFab> so confirming that one and bugging soren about that I guess.
<MagicFab> sommer, thank you.
<sommer> welcome
<MagicFab> sommer, I am seing that in a fresh Hardy beta of Jeos, that's why I am here :) So... might this be grounds for a doc update exception if it's not fixed by release ?
<sommer> no, I have every confidence that it'll be fixed by release.  If not the proper way to handle it would be with an SRU.
<sommer> an SRU to make grub on jeos work that is :)
<MagicFab> I am not sure it's not intentional - it's also curious someone logged the bug 1 hr. ago :)
<sommer> I think that grub working is the expected behavior, so it's usually best to document that... at least that's my view... heh
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 1 in ubuntu "Microsoft has a majority market share" [Critical,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1
<sommer> MagicFab: I can ask soren real quick
<MagicFab> sure, although he's notified already.
<sommer> ah, well if it was only created an hour ago, he may not have had time to address it yet
<MagicFab> sure, I work with soren so I won't break his neck just yet :)
<sommer> ah, that's cool... at canonical?
<MagicFab> yes, although I am at support. He's in the server team as you know
<sommer> ooohhh, sure you blog frequently?
<MagicFab> sommer, these days yes - it depends. -> http://www.fabianrodriguez.com/blog/
<sommer> cool, I read Planet Ubuntu... nice to meet you in IRC :)
<MagicFab> sommer, likewise. I'll most likely endup contributing to docs directly - I was supposed to help with the Desktop guide too.
<sommer> that's awesome... the more the merrier!
<MagicFab> sommer, I had promised never to code or use dev tools long ago. Whishful thinking :)
<sommer> MagicFab: hehehehe... coding can be fun too
<MagicFab> sommer, I  am told GRUB is supposed to work in JeOS and will be fixed - so no changes to that doc just yet
<sommer> sweet
<sommer> mdke: ping
<mdke> sommer: (In case I'm not around at the moment, please provide a bit of information about what you want and I will respond when I get back)
<mdke> sommer: I think it's too late for a fix like that
<mdke> sommer: how serious is it?
<sommer> mdke: the group and username are reversed... so it won't work the way it currently is
<sommer> but the user may well reverse the docmented command and things will work
<sommer> so overall, I can't say it's a huge bug
<mdke> sommer: ok, as long as the wrong command doesn't lead to breakage, I think we fix it for intrepid
<sommer> I missed it because I had both usernames as part of each other's goup
<sommer> okay, sounds good
<sommer> thanks mdke
<sommer> I guess my other thought is that I'd hate to have the error there for 5 years :(
<mdke> sommer: we'll fix it after the release then and update translations
<mdke> as per philbull's proposal
<sommer> oh ya, good point
#ubuntu-doc 2008-04-12
<l3on> Hi all, I think that in this page there is some mistake..... https://help.ubuntu.com/community/HardyUpgrades
<l3on> To the end of document, there is a command like: gksu "sh /cdrom/cdromupgrade"
<l3on> but it should be -> gksu "sh /media/cdrom/cdromupgrade"
<l3on> or -> gksu "sh /mnt/cdrom/cdromupgrade"
<l3on> is it right ?
<l3on> mdke: are you there?
<mdke> l3on: (In case I'm not around at the moment, please provide a bit of information about what you want and I will respond when I get back)
<l3on> ah... not, ok, solved: there's a link in /
<l3on> lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 11 2008-04-03 14:53 /cdrom -> media/cdro
<LaserJock> mdke: need an upload?
<mdke> LaserJock: sure, thanks
<LaserJock> mdke: do I need to build a source package form the latest revision?
<ubotu> New bug: #216455 in ubuntu-doc "synaptic bug not an easy fixgr" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/216455
<mdke> LaserJock: yes - you get the branch and do "debuild"
<mdke> LaserJock: do people have ready to upload source packages in other branches?
<LaserJock> mdke: no, but normally if you subscribe ubuntu-main-sponsors you have a ready to upload package
<LaserJock> mdke: I just wanted to make sure I was getting the right stuff
<LaserJock> mdke: ok, done and I notified slangasek
<mdke> LaserJock: ah, i see. Thanks a lot
<LaserJock> np
<LaserJock> looks like we're pretty much all done for Hardy
<LaserJock> don't know about xubuntu-docs
<mdke> I still need to do gnome-user-docs
<LaserJock> ah, that's not final?
<j1mc> LaserJock & mdke: there don't appear to be any complete xubuntu doc translations available.
<LaserJock> j1mc: are you gonna ship some anyway?
<LaserJock> I usually ship > 10% translated and I think ubuntu-docs is > 40%
<j1mc> LaserJock: i'm new to this.  i haven't done it before.  i think there's only one translated file.
<LaserJock> there's a lot of translations I'm seeing
<j1mc> link?
<LaserJock> https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu/hardy/+source/xubuntu-docs/+translations
<j1mc> what about this: https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu/hardy/+source/xubuntu-docs/+imports
<j1mc> only one file in the import queue.
<LaserJock> that doesn't matter
<LaserJock> I'm not really sure what that is
<j1mc> should i download the translation tarball?
<LaserJock> yeah, there's a ton of translations there
<LaserJock> a lot more than Edubuntu has
<j1mc> ok.  cool.  i submitted to get the tarball.
<j1mc> i think creating the tarball takes a while.  once i receive it, should i extract it into the root of my xubuntu-hardy folder, and the translations will populate into the appropriate folders?
<LaserJock> j1mc: I'd have a look at the contents of the tarball first
<j1mc> LaserJock: sure.  what is our deadline for this?  today?
<LaserJock> I think before the 17th for sure, thats RC
<LaserJock> but ASAP
<j1mc> ok.  thanks.  i should be able to get to it this weekend.
<LaserJock> j1mc: if you need help ping me and if I'm around I'll give you a hand
<j1mc> thanks.  will do.
<j1mc> LaserJock: there is still the "draft" watermark on xubuntu docs that are installed in hardy.
<j1mc> any idea where that comes from?
<LaserJock> are you building HTML?
<j1mc> yeah, we build out to html for our docs - don't use yelp or khelp.
<LaserJock> k
 * j1mc doesn't build them out personally.
<LaserJock> then my guess is that you're using the style sheet we use for doc.ubuntu.com
<LaserJock> j1mc: I'm grabing xubuntu-hardy branch so I can see what you're working with :-)
<j1mc> thanks.  :)
<LaserJock> now that I have a shared bzr repo for them I can have all the branches with minimal disk usage
<j1mc> ah, translations... there are many.  :)  how do i determine percent translated?
<LaserJock> there is a script
<LaserJock> you can look in the ubuntu or edubuntu branches
<LaserJock> I think I found where the draft is coming from
<j1mc> is it in the xslt files?
<LaserJock> yep
<LaserJock> xubuntu/libs/xubuntu-html-chunk-cust.xsl:
<LaserJock> xubuntu/libs/xubuntu-html-single-cust.xsl
<LaserJock> they both have <xsl:param name="draft.mode" select="'yes'"/>
<j1mc> would you like to go ahead and commit the change?
<LaserJock> so I think if you change that to no
<cody-somerville> I don't think you need to change it
<cody-somerville> er... commit it
<j1mc> no?
<cody-somerville> We'll change it when we upload it.
<cody-somerville> The stuff in bzr *is* a draft.
<LaserJock> well
<LaserJock> at this point it shouldn't be
<LaserJock> but yeah, upload is a good time to do it
<j1mc> i gotta go for a little bit, but will be back later.
<j1mc> thanks, all.
#ubuntu-doc 2008-04-13
<j1mc> is anyone from the doc team around?
<LaserJock> I am
<LaserJock> not sure if I'm any help
<j1mc> hey LaserJock - just trying to figure out the translate script
<j1mc> not the script itself, really, just where i'm supposed to put it, and where i'm supposed to put the untarred po files
<LaserJock> you usually want <doc>/po/ for the .pos
 * j1mc looks
<LaserJock> you want the translate script in xubuntu/
<j1mc> not sure if i've done it correctly... i got a bunch of these, "mkdir: cannot create directory `xubuntu-docs-index-sv.po': File exists"
<LaserJock> ah
<LaserJock> yep
<LaserJock> you have to rename the .po files
<LaserJock> to <lang code>.po
<j1mc> not manually, right?
<j1mc> there's hundreds of them
<j1mc> there are hundreds of them  :)
<LaserJock> so for that one I would do:   for file in *.po; do mv $file `cat $file | cut -d "-" -f 4`; done;
<j1mc> hm... no luck.
<j1mc> i think i'll give it a go tomorrow
<j1mc> i'm pretty tired right now.
<j1mc> thanks for your help, though, LaserJock
<LaserJock> k
<j1mc> :)  have a good night
<ubotu> New bug: #216642 in ubuntu-docs (main) ""About this document" section could be shared across the ubuntu-docs templates" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/216642
<mdke> damn, gnome-user-docs translations are riddled with errors too
<mdke> oh great, the brazilian translators just make up new tags
<LaserJock> mdke: :(
<LaserJock> I only had to fix 2 things for edubuntu-docs
<mdke> LaserJock: the breakage comes from upstream it seems
<LaserJock> really? stink
<mdke> LaserJock: do you fancy doing another upload for me? gnome-user-docs is ready
<mdke> https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-doc/gnome-user-docs/ubuntu-hardy
<mdke> revision 728
<LaserJock> k, gimme a bit
<mdke> LaserJock: thanks a lot. Otherwise no worries, I will put it in the queue for -main-sponsors
<LaserJock> no problem
<LaserJock> nice that I can actually be of use sometimes ;-)
<LaserJock> mdke: geeze, g-u-d take some time to build :-)
<mdke> LaserJock: takes about 5 minutes here... but xml2po is fairly intensive so it will take a while on a slow machine I think
<LaserJock> hmm, seemed longer here
<LaserJock> in any case, I'm about half way through uploading it
<mdke> LaserJock: awesome, thanks a lot
<LaserJock> I didn't ask slangasek or other release manager about it though
<LaserJock> so if we seem him around we should ask ;-)
<mdke> LaserJock: don't they get it in some kind of queue too?
<LaserJock> yep
<mdke> cool
<LaserJock> https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/hardy/+queue?queue_state=1&queue_text=
<LaserJock> because the archive is frozen *all* uploads have to be manually approved
<LaserJock> that's why I can "upload first, ask later"
<LaserJock> within reason of course
 * mdke nods
<ubotu> New bug: #216982 in ubuntu-docs (main) "Ubuntu firefox start page not translated into Ukrainian (uk)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/216982
#ubuntu-doc 2009-04-06
<nhandler> mdke: I noticed that merge issue shortly after requesting it (however, I was unable to add a comment at the time). However, the patch has been attached to the bug for a few days. In order to ensure it gets pushed to the karmic branch, I'll fix up my person branch so it is mergable
<mdke> nhandler: oh, sorry. Don't worry about the branch then, no point with the extra work
<mdke> nhandler: I'll grab the patch now
<nhandler> Thanks a lot mdke :)
<mdke> nhandler: ok, it looks good to me. I'll let upstream check the terminology though, no doubt it will enter Ubuntu when we merge from upstream during the karmic cycle
<mdke> nhandler: I'll comment on the upstream bug
<nhandler> mdke: Just out of curiosity, how do we handle the merge with upstream? Do we just merge the branches?
<mdke> nhandler: yes, there tend to be quite a few conflicts to sort out (po files are terrible with vcs) but it's a decent solution
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, i saw your response to matt lye's email this morning, I don't know exactly why he contacted anybody directly rather than mailing lists, but there seems to be some confusion over what we are doing
<Rocket2DMn> our Education focus group is coordinating with #ubuntu-classroom sessions
<Rocket2DMn> I believe you know cprofitt, he is leading that up, I think he has been coordinating with Elizabeth Krumbach (pleia2 on irc)
<Rocket2DMn> I'm not sure why Matt (Vantrax on IRC) got ahold of you to ask those questions
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: he mailed the entire ~ubuntumembers group on Launchpad. But I'm happy if you clarify his email on the list, I'm just going off to bed now
<Rocket2DMn> Did he really?  I wasnt contacted directly...
<Rocket2DMn> Ok, go ahead and go to bed, I'll talk with you more later,  gnight
<mdke> This message was sent from Launchpad by the user
<mdke> Matthew Lye (https://launchpad.net/~matthew.lye)
<mdke> using the "Contact this team" link on the Ubuntu Members
<mdke> team page to each member directly.
<Rocket2DMn> oh youre right, i do see it now
<Rocket2DMn> how embarrassing
<mdke> :D
<mdke> ok, good night
<Rocket2DMn> ok thanks, i'll email the list after i am able to contact him
<Rocket2DMn> peace
#ubuntu-doc 2009-04-08
<pace_t_zulu> hello?
<pace_t_zulu> anyone here?
#ubuntu-doc 2009-04-09
<akgraner> nhandler: Iearned how to edit wiki's today...are there any that needed to be reviewed for typos and grammar?  or where do I go to find out?
<akgraner> well I need to fix my own typo's too as evidence of early sentence...ugh:)
<jjesse> am i looking for the code for ubuntu-docs in the wrong spot?  is it https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-doc?
<jjesse> ah found it at: https://code.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-doc
<j1mc> hi all
<nhandler> Hey j1mc
<OsamaK> Hello, is ubuntu documentation freeze in action?
<emmajane> j1mc, hey :)
<emmajane> j1mc, I got your registration!!
<j1mc> emmajane: cool.  :)
<j1mc> i'm looking forward to the conference
<j1mc> based on some of the conversations on the docteam mailing list, the gnome-doc mailing list, and being one of only two open-source doc'ers at a recent doc conference, i thought it would be helpful to attend.
<emmajane> j1mc, me too :)
<emmajane> j1mc, I just updated your account, so you should be able to edit the unconference pages now.
<emmajane> j1mc, I'm just writing a quasi-reply to the docteam one.
<j1mc> sure... it seems like we've had a lot more conversations than normal there lately. it can be a little contentious, but hopefully the conversations will bring about good things for the docteam and the docs.
<OsamaK> again, any answer?
<dtchen> OsamaK: see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JauntyReleaseSchedule
<OsamaK> seen, but is it in action right now
<dtchen> string freeze is in effect, yes
<mdke> ho hum
<philip_> i can't get http://www.lynxworks.eu/editor/ to do anything useful, except chat on irc
<mdke> chatting on irc is no mean feat
<philip_> it can be... mean
<mdke> irc?
<philip_> oh, bad joke... just that communication (people) can be mean
<mdke> they certainly can
<mdke> ooh, golf
<mdke> evening Rocket2DMn
<Rocket2DMn> hey mdke , reading Wiki Team LP permissions thread right now
<Rocket2DMn> like 50 emails today
<Rocket2DMn> Ok mdke , I do like the idea of re-evaluating the team and subteam structure
<Rocket2DMn> How do you propose dealing with new members who want to learn how to commit to bzr?
<Rocket2DMn> I suppose as far ask LP teams are concerned we can keep those with AdminGroup privs and those with EditorGroup privs together
<Rocket2DMn> I assume anybody can check out a bzr branch and commit to that, just not the main branch?
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: new members learning how to commit to bzr don't really need a team
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: but the idea is that there would be one open team, either ubuntu-doc itself or an ubuntu-doc-contributors, which interested people could join to show interest
<mdke> yeah, lots of emails
<Rocket2DMn> Yeah, I'm hashing out my idea right now, which actually has 2 "enthusiast" teams
<mdke> I've had to give up for the time being to concentrate on getting the jaunty release out
<Rocket2DMn> one for system doc, the other for wiki doc
<mdke> that would my original idea
<mdke> phil asked the question why two separate teams are necessary
<Rocket2DMn> ah, ok, im just responding to the latest in the thread
<mdke> I think he has a point
<Rocket2DMn> The biggest reason I would see is because they are so different
<mdke> that doesn't really matter for the purposes of showing interest though
<mdke> keeping a single team kinda demonstrates that the two projects are part of the same team
<Rocket2DMn> point taken
<Rocket2DMn> what teams do we have now exactly?
<mdke> too many :)
<Rocket2DMn> hehe yeah, are we merging in xubuntu-doc and edubuntu-doc, etc?
<mdke> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-doc/+members
<Rocket2DMn> yeah im on that page
<Rocket2DMn> :)
<mdke> I think we should, yes. Those teams aren't really used for any purpose I'm aware of
<mdke> but we'll need to discuss it, the meeting is a perfect opportunity
<Rocket2DMn> so they all collapse into ubuntu-doc.  I also so mention of combining ubuntu-docs, xubuntu-docs, etc _packages_ but didnt read in detail
<mdke> heh
<mdke> that's another issue yeah
<Rocket2DMn> Is that what spawned this convo?
<Rocket2DMn> If you were to keep the separate packages, would you just have anybody in the privileged doc team be able to commit to any *-docs package?
<Rocket2DMn> that is to say, the high level branch that becomes that package
<mdke> let's start from the beginning
<mdke> Launchpad distinguishes between distributions (like Ubuntu) and upstream projects
<mdke> distributions have lots of packages
<mdke> we currently use both packages (ubuntu-docs, kubuntu-docs, xubuntu-docs, edubuntu-docs) and an upstream project (ubuntu-doc)
<mdke> the upstream project has previously had all our code branches on it
<mdke> the proposal is to make lots of upstream projects which match the packages, so we'd have one upstream project for each package
<mdke> is that relatively clear? (Launchpad is quite complicated sometimes :)
<Rocket2DMn> yeah, i was aware of all that except that the upstream project was actually used for packages
<Rocket2DMn> that i didnt know
<Rocket2DMn> guess it makes sense looking at the URLs though
<mdke> the upstream project isn't used for packages
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, ubuntu-core-doc team is the one that can currently commit?  is it the only one?
<mdke> but it can be linked to a package
<Rocket2DMn> right
<Rocket2DMn> sorry
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: ubuntu-core-doc is the team that can commit to the branches owned by it (which is all our official ones)
<Rocket2DMn> ok, this is what i was going to propose - http://paste.ubuntu.com/147901/
<mdke> that's kinda already out there
<mdke> except you've renamed the ubuntu-core-doc team
<mdke> if we decide on the structure, we can certainly have a debate about the best naming convention
<Rocket2DMn> Yeah, I think if we are going to re-org, we should make sure we get it right, even if that is renaming.  +1 for a good naming convention
<mdke> the reason for using "ubuntu-core-doc" was that it is consistent with "ubuntu-core-dev", the development team
<mdke> but I'm not particularly attached to it, although we've used it for a while so it has settled in
<Rocket2DMn> Well, consistency is important, I don't have a problem leaving the name if it matches others
<Rocket2DMn> ubuntu-core-wiki ?
<Rocket2DMn> I'm not clear on privilege differences between the community docs and w.u.c
<mdke> w.u.c is not part of our domain at all
<Rocket2DMn> (i see your earlier email that basically matches my suggestion)
<Rocket2DMn> ok, i thought that might be the case
<mdke> I think the wiki team name should have "admin" in it, because it implies admin rights over the wiki
<mdke> the ubuntu-core-doc team is different, it implies committing rights
<mdke> phew
<Rocket2DMn> ok, trying to match a convention
 * mdke finishes importing and fixing all translations for Jaunty
<Rocket2DMn> ubuntu-core-wiki-admin - or is that too long?
<Rocket2DMn> or ubuntu-core-doc-wiki
<mdke> I don't think the names need to follow the same convention, because they imply different privileges completely, not the same
<mdke> as long as they are under the ubuntu-doc umbrella team, I'm happy
<Rocket2DMn> Ok, well, cant have much of a namng convention with only 2 or 3 subteams :)
<mdke> true
<Rocket2DMn> Alright, well naming conventions aside, I like the email you sent this morning, I guess it would have ben at 11:54 UTC
<mdke> I sent too many emails today :(
<Rocket2DMn> i'll reply to it
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, what is dougie talking about re: adding the team to bugcontrol?
<Rocket2DMn> should core-doc already be able to have full privs over ubuntu-docs packages?
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: ideally, it would. But the privileges in Launchpad aren't subtle enough for that
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: the bugcontrol team is the only one with privileges over Ubuntu bugs
<mdke> I'm negotiating a solution with bmurray, but he has some issues about the idea
<Rocket2DMn> ah, bummer you can assign a particular team full privs
<Rocket2DMn> i can see why they might be opposed though
<mdke> it's because the bugcontrol team has the ability to see crash dumps that might have private content in them
<Rocket2DMn> that is one potential concern
<Rocket2DMn> i also wouldnt want to grant a member of some team with control over a single app the ability to have the same control over all packages
<mdke> we'll see what the solution is
<mdke> it will probably be to encourage members to join ubuntu-bugcontrol separately
<Rocket2DMn> I think that is fair.  If you're going to give somebody the power, they should have to be approved for it like everybody else
<Rocket2DMn> it also pushes blame away from you if a doc-team member does something stupid with other packages and the bosses come looking for the one who granted the user those privs
<mdke> j1mc: do you have plans for importing xubuntu-docs translations?
<j1mc> mdke: do i just export them from launchpad, and then add them to the docs? i think there's a script involved, too, right? the script that cuts them out if they aren't at least 75% complete?
<mdke> j1mc: that's part of the packaging, you probably dont' need to worry about that bit. But there are other bits to worry about
<j1mc> ok - any tips?
<mdke> j1mc: what I thought we might do is invite one of the translation guys to help, he has shown a lot of interest in -docs translations recently and knows the tools well
<j1mc> sounds great
<mdke> j1mc: so you could work with him, if he is willing
<j1mc> sure
<mdke> lemme see
<mdke> j1mc: in the meantime I'll outline the basic process
<mdke> j1mc: step 1 is to download the translations from rosetta. Do you have a "Download" button in the middle at the top of https://translations.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/jaunty/+source/xubuntu-docs
<j1mc> i have an 'overview / import queue' button
<mdke> damn
<j1mc> wait, one moment
<j1mc> logging in...  :)
<j1mc> no, still no download buton
<mdke> ok, you need special privileges to download all the translations at the same time.
<mdke> either me or adi (the guy I'm talking about) can do it
<j1mc> ah, ok
<mdke> anyway, the translations arrive as a tar.gz, and you export them into the branch directory
<j1mc> i can download all of the translations for each of the individual files, though.
<j1mc> that would take longer
<mdke> right
<mdke> they have cranky names, so you rename them with the script that is called scripts/hack.sh (at least in ubuntu-docs that is what the script is called)
<mdke> then, you use the translate.sh script to build translations and find errors with them
<j1mc> do you have to put them in any special folder before renaming them?
<mdke> no, you untar them and they have the same folder structure as our branch
<j1mc> e.g., in the "basic-commands" folder for ... ah, ok
<mdke> so they slot in
<j1mc> right
<mdke> there are always plenty of translations with errors, because translators don't follow the rules :(
<mdke> the most time consuming bit is to fix those
<j1mc> ok
<j1mc> hm
<j1mc> and this has to be done tonight?
<j1mc> it's ok if it does... i'm just asking
<mdke> j1mc: no, not necessarily. In theory, it would have been done today but things are generally a lot more flexible
<mdke> I've often done them the weekend following the freeze
<j1mc> ok
<mdke> especially for xubuntu-docs (universe) it should be flexible
<j1mc> right
 * mdke checks out the xubuntu-docs branch
<mdke> hmm, the directory structure is a bit different to ubuntu-docs
<mdke> the translation script might need some work to accomodate that
<j1mc> grr, yes.  um, someone switched them without consulting me.
<mdke> I guess it was easier than fixing the packaging to fit the directory structure
<j1mc> :/
<j1mc> the docs were in the other format for the last release, though.  at least i think they were.
<mdke> we'll fix them for karmic
<j1mc> right
<mdke> I really like what you've been saying about xubuntu and ubuntu getting closer
<j1mc> cool.  glad to hear it.
<mdke> so, where did we get to about translations
<mdke> the translate.sh script
<mdke> that takes po files and turns them into xml
<mdke> then validates the xml to output any errors
<j1mc> untarring them, and getting them into the right folder
<mdke> oh, have you downloaded some already?
<j1mc> correcting the validation errors... that's just like correcting regular validation errors, right?
<j1mc> no, i don't have the docs yet
<j1mc> or, the translations yet
<mdke> j1mc: exactly, yes
<nhandler> mdke: I asked j1mc what the procedure was for becoming a member of the core-doc team. He only knew what he did to gain membership. We were also unable to find a wiki page explaining this. I know you are meant to contribute and demonstrate your abilities/knowledge, but then what? Do you apply on irc/mailing list? Do you wait for a meeting? Do you have to be no
<mdke> nhandler: that cut off after "to be no"
<mdke> nhandler: but the procedure is to send a few decent size patches which get reviewed positively, and then ask :)
 * nhandler curses mibbit
<nhandler> mdke: Do you just ask on IRC? Or do you have to ask at a meeting?
<mdke> nhandler: in any medium
<nhandler> mdke: Ok, thanks a lot. This should probably be mentioned on the wiki somewhere
<mdke> nhandler: yes, I agree. I think the process should be a lot clearer
<j1mc> mdke: will it take a while to get translations downloaded for xubuntu docs?
<mdke> j1mc: I'm still waiting for the email
<j1mc> i'm not quite sure how i'll get them.  ah, ok.
<mdke> I'll send you a link when it arrives
<j1mc> ok
<mdke> then you can play around with them, and we'll speak again maybe tomorrow - nearly bed time here
<j1mc> yeah, it takes a bit to generate them.  it used to take longer, if i recall correctly.
<j1mc> nhandler: thanks for the suggestion about the wiki, and for bringing up the topic. :)
<mdke> it takes a hell of a long time yeah
<j1mc> mdke: yeah, that sounds fine - if you can just send me the link when you get it, that would be great.
 * mdke nods
<mdke> I couldn't get hold of adi
<mdke> but I'll send him an email and copy you in
<j1mc> ok
<mdke> j1mc: ok, YGM. I'll catch you tomorrow, maybe over email
<j1mc> YGM?
<j1mc> sounds good.  have a good rest
<mdke> (you got mail)
<mdke> cya
<j1mc> got it.  the link works.  :)  later.
#ubuntu-doc 2009-04-10
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: I was thinking you could be an ideal person to run the Wiki session at the OpenWeek if you are around. What do you think?
<Rocket2DMn> When is openweek?
<Rocket2DMn> I work during the day, I might be able to do evening sessions (US time)
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: ok, tricky, it's between 15 and 23 UTC
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, let met get back to you, i'm in the middle of something else atm
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: sure. I'm just popping out myself
<philip_> i find people really don't need to know docbook to edit it, and rather, just need to know a <para> is like a <p> (basically)
<mdke> philip_: yes, I agree entirely
<mdke> philip_: the key is to give people the basic concepts that they can start contributing with
<philip_> people have fears they need to know more going in, but calming those fears with "nah, don't worry, the system is all setup and ready... just add content"
<philip_> especially if the validation tools are easy to use
<mdke> right
<mdke> of course, not everyone knows what a <p> is either, but the basic thing is to reassure people that it is easier than it looks, and that contribution is possible without having to understand everything Norman Walsh knows about docbook
<philip_> exactly
<mdke> once people have done a couple of easy patches, they learn the markup by reading what is already there
<philip_> and people usually just copy a file and edit for new files
<mdke> that's not to say that an easy to use WYSIWYG docbook editor wouldn't be awesomely helpful, of course it would
<mdke> anyway, I suppose it's good to see a lot of interest in the docteam at the moment, hopefully it will turn into some contributions
<mdke> and some improved ideas for the future
<philip_> interesting to watch ubuntu-doc and notice similar problems we face
<philip_> don't your xml files validate, so any xml ide will work fine?
<mdke> I guess, but the ones we've tried have never been that great.
<philip_> i'm sitting here using XMLEditor and it seems fine
<philip_> well, testing rather
<mdke> I'll give it a try sometime
<mdke> philip_: ok, you've put that a lot more succinctly than me :)
<philip_> i almost didn't submit as when about finished i noticed your email go through but figured what the heck
<philip_> i tend to be overly wordy, so that was a rare instance
<philip_> :)
<mdke> me too
<mdke> right, let's have a play around with Andrew's wiki macro
<mdke> man that looks good
<nhandler> mdke: Where is the image from?
<mdke> nhandler: it's the one that Andrew posted on the list
<nhandler> So it is the Tangerine icon for synaptic. Did we check the license to make sure that we can use it on the wiki?
 * nhandler can't remember what license the icons are released under
<mdke> nhandler: that's quite a good point. *none* of the icons on IconsPage have ever been checked for licensing compatibility
<nhandler> mdke: I'm surprised that the Canonical Legal team hasn't checked any of them. Especially the ones on help.ubuntu.com
<mdke> nhandler: I don't think the Canonical legal team's priority is to check licensing compatibility of community projects
<mdke> assuming that there is a "legal team"
<nhandler> There is a legal team
<mdke> as in, more than one person?
<nhandler> That I I do not know. I just know that there is something called the Canonical Legal Team
<mdke> ah
<mdke> I think we can resolve this by adding something to https://help.ubuntu.com/community/License
<mdke> oh hey, human-icon-theme is under the cc-by-sa license too
<mdke> that makes things easier
<mdke> there are probably quite a few icons on IconsPage where that isn't the case though...
<mdke> adiroiban: hiya
<adiroiban> hi
<mdke> adiroiban: I quite like the idea of having the docs sessions together, because the content is linked and because a "Docs Day" is a marketable concept, but translation is quite a logically separate topic, so if it suits you to do it on another day, or earlier on Friday, that's fine
<mdke> adiroiban: or, I have no problem running the session
<mdke> whatever is going to work best for everyone
<adiroiban> ok
<mdke> what do you think?
<adiroiban> I prefer to do it in any other day :)
<adiroiban> but I'm ok if you will run it on friday
<mdke> what about earlier on Friday?
<mdke> doesn't help?
<adiroiban> nope
<mdke> ok
<adiroiban> 1 may is labor's day here and it's a bank day. I most probably go and visit my parent
<adiroiban> my parents
 * mdke nods
<mdke> well, I don't mind moving it to another day, or to run it myself on Friday. Let's see what emmajane thinks, the docs day has been kinda her idea
<adiroiban> ok
<mdke> alternatively, we could move all the docs sessions to tuesday
<adiroiban> i would be more than happy :D
<adiroiban> I can move my other sessions
<mdke> they would fit too
<adiroiban> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labour_Day
<adiroiban> I don't know if it's ok to have docs day on the 1st of May
<adiroiban> it's a national holiday in many other countries
<adiroiban> and I suppose people will stay away from the computers :)
<mdke> although some other people might be more available because of the holiday
<mdke> I don't know
<adiroiban> me neigher
<adiroiban> but all people I know (working in computer related businesses) tries to stay away from the computer during national holidays
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> today is a national holiday here, and I am here on irc :(
<adiroiban> but maybe it's just a specific thing here in Romania
<adiroiban> but I agree with you, we should know the oppinion of Dougie and Emma
<DougieRichardson> you make it sound like we're a single entity
<adiroiban> should we have it on Friday ?
<DougieRichardson> I'm quite happy with the layout you've proposed on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Prep
<mdke> DougieRichardson: the problem with that layout is that Friday doesn't work for Adi, so we're wondering if Tuesday is an alternative. Otherwise we can just move the translation item
<DougieRichardson> UTC is GMT -1 isn't it?
<mdke> DougieRichardson: UTC and GMT are the same, but in the UK we are UTC+1 at the moment (BST)
<DougieRichardson> so 1700 utc is 1800 gmt?
<mdke> nope. 17:00 UTC is 17:00 GMT. But it is 18:00 in British Summer Time
<mdke> (where we are now)
<DougieRichardson> OK if its 1800 then I'm happy to move to Tuesday
<mdke> awesome. Let's see if Emma is free then too
<DougieRichardson> is this like last years openweek?
<mdke> yeah
#ubuntu-doc 2009-04-11
<mdke> morning all
<mdke> bencrisford: you around?
<bencrisford> I sure am :)
<bencrisford> good morning ;)
<mdke> bencrisford: morning :) We may have sorted out our timing issues now, and we'd like to move you back to Friday, and do our sessions on Tuesday, because one person can't make Friday. is that ok?
<bencrisford> thats fine i guess
<mdke> bencrisford: really sorry to mess you around over that
<bencrisford> its fine
<mdke> sure?
<bencrisford> yeah
<bencrisford> and i dont even have to change korganiser too much
<bencrisford> because ill be attending your sessions anyway
<mdke> :)
<mdke> which time would you like on Friday? 19:00 UTC as before?
<bencrisford> if possible yeah :)
<mdke> yep, you get your pick of times on Friday, it's still quite free
<bencrisford> :D
<bencrisford> I can watch eastenders now :)
<mdke> exactly
<bencrisford> mdke: thanks for moving my time for me :), i was about to do that
<bencrisford> one less thing to do
<bencrisford> thanks ;)
<mdke> no worries, thanks for being so flexible
<mdke> ok, cya later
<bencrisford> ok
<bencrisford> cya
<mdke> hiya adiroiban
<adiroiban> hi
<adiroiban> mdke: i can move my sessions earlier
<adiroiban> if you think it's needed
<mdke> adiroiban: for me they work slightly better a bit later, so that I have more time to get home from work. Do the times suit you ok at the moment?
<adiroiban> yes
<adiroiban> it's perfect :D
<mdke> I guess for you the second one is at 22.00 LT?
<mdke> ok, great
<mdke> we can jiggle things around if we need to for other people
<bencrisford> I'm looking forward to openweek already :D
<mdke> :)
<adiroiban> For the "Translating documentation" session i was thinking to include info about using Rosetta, testing translations, generating translated PDF, tips (ex translating documentation when not all UI is translated), how and how often the translation packages are pushed in Ubuntu, how to check for errors
<adiroiban> should we create a wiki page
<adiroiban> ?
<adiroiban> or discuss over the mailing list?
<mdke> adiroiban: maybe a wiki page will be cleaner.
<mdke> adiroiban: I think it's important to cover how to make sure the tags are preserved and how to test; not sure about PDFs (we don't use them in the English version so it's probably not something necessary for translation)
<adiroiban> i was thinkig to also cover the translations of Ubuntu Training
<adiroiban> thinking
<adiroiban> or they are different things
<mdke> adiroiban: ah, yes I see - that would be quite cool
<mdke> adiroiban: but treat it as a separate part of the session so that it's clear that it's a different task
<adiroiban> i was using the translated "trainer" and "student" pdf version of Ubuntu Desktop training in various school in Romania
<adiroiban> but I create a new session
<adiroiban> but I  will create a new session
<mdke> I think it can be covered in the same hour
<mdke> that would be good
<adiroiban> then we should have 2 session in the same hour?
<adiroiban> then we should have two sessions in the same hour?
<mdke> one session, but two sections
<adiroiban> ok
<mdke> I don't think translation of ubuntu-docs will take a full hour, so there will be time to cover training too, I think
<adiroiban> yep. I feel the same
<mdke> great
<mdke> I have no experience with the training bit though, you'll have to cover that
<bencrisford> Is this the translation hour?
<mdke> yes
<bencrisford> because I wasn't going to attend but if you guys think it'll be worth it i will
<mdke> only if you are thinking of becoming a translator :)
<bencrisford> it would help if i knew any languages i guess :P
<adiroiban> :)
<mdke> well, en_GB counts as a language
<mdke> there is an en_GB translation team
<bencrisford> but i would need to know another language also no?
<bencrisford> or am i misunderstanding the system?
<mdke> no, the en_GB team turns American English into British English
<bencrisford> Oh, that sounds good i might look into that
<adiroiban> mdke: I can handle the training part
<mdke> adiroiban: great
<bencrisford> the translation session is now marked in my KOrganiser :)
<bencrisford> ive got 3 sessions in a row
<bencrisford> :D
<mdke> bencrisford: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-l10n-en-gb
<bencrisford> ooh thanks :)
<bencrisford> What are the requirements to join?
<bencrisford> anything fancy?
<mdke> I don't know
<mdke> but if you follow the links you'll find out
<bencrisford> Ok, I applied
<bencrisford> so hopefully i'll get an email telling me
<bencrisford> if I dont meet them already that it :)
<bencrisford> is*
<bencrisford> Maybe I just have to spell a really long word for them :D
<mdke> I guess so
 * mdke is afk for a while
<bencrisford> ok
<j1mc> adiroiban: are you around?
<adiroiban> hi
<adiroiban> yes
<j1mc> hello :)
<j1mc> if now is an ok time, we can go over importing the translations.  i haven't really had a chance to validate them yet.
<adiroiban> i have start running the xml translating script
<adiroiban> games and hardware translations are missing from Rosetta
<adiroiban> do you know why ?
<adiroiban> and they are not included in shipped-docs
<j1mc> adiroiban: hmmm... that's strange
<adiroiban> should I ignore them?
<j1mc> let me check something
<adiroiban> let me upload the current errors status
<j1mc> o
<j1mc> ok
<j1mc> i need to modify the translate.sh script, don't i? because the xubuntu-docs layout is different
<adiroiban> http://194.54.129.79/xubuntu-docs-jaunty/
<adiroiban> you can move the scripts and libs folder in desktop-guide
<adiroiban> and from there, the layout is identical
<adiroiban> i am running a custom translate.sh script
<adiroiban> to help me generate an error report
<adiroiban> in add-applications.xml there is an erropr
<adiroiban> error
<adiroiban> http://194.54.129.79/xubuntu-docs-jaunty/report_xml/add-applications/ace.txt
<j1mc> so just move the scripts and libs folders into the desktop guide itself?
<adiroiban> yes
<adiroiban> but I can run the translate script for you
<adiroiban> first we should check the original xml files
<adiroiban> games and hardware are part of the xubuntu-docs ?
<j1mc> the link you provided... ace.txt ... does that indicate an error in the original xml?  how is that generated?
<adiroiban> please update the  libs/shipped-docs with the current list of xml included in xubuntu-docs
<adiroiban> i have moved the xubuntu-docs-index
<adiroiban> into a separte folder
<adiroiban> as it was in the root
<adiroiban> and I have add it to ï»¿libs/shipped-docs
<adiroiban> the ace.txt was generated by running "xmllint"
<adiroiban> there is a validate.sh script
<j1mc> hm, games and and hardware are part of the shipped docs
<adiroiban> ok
<adiroiban> then we will need to import them in Rosetta
<adiroiban> https://translations.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/jaunty/+source/xubuntu-docs
<j1mc> xubuntu-docs-index - is that the name of the actual file?
<adiroiban> i can not see them here
<adiroiban> index.xml
<j1mc> understood
<adiroiban> i have create the xubuntu-docs-index/C/
<adiroiban> and moved the xml file there
<adiroiban> to have the same layout for xml internationalization
<j1mc> how can i import games and hardware.xml files into the import queue?
<adiroiban> hm... yep.. xubuntu-docs are not in main
<adiroiban> i will upload them
<j1mc> adiroiban: that's correct.  xubuntu is in universe.
<adiroiban> it's just that I didn't know why they are missing
<adiroiban> for now we will not have the translations of hardware and games
<adiroiban> but at least, i know what to do to solve it
<mdke> it's because they are not listed in libs/shipped-docs
<adiroiban> now let's check add-applications
<mdke> so the get-pot.sh script misses them
<mdke> so if you add them to libs/shipped-docs, then they will get imported
<j1mc> ok
<mdke> as for importing them, I think they should get imported from the branch if you upload the new pot files, Rosetta has added that feature now
<mdke> or adiroiban can import them manually
<adiroiban> mdke: does it work for packages outside of main ?
<adiroiban> we are talking about ubuntu
<j1mc> i've added them to libs/shipped-docs
<adiroiban> and not the ubuntu-docs project
<mdke> adiroiban: I think it should - ROsetta gets pot files from branches now, as well as from package uploads
<j1mc> if i run the get-pot.sh, will it refresh the pot files, including games and hardware?
<mdke> and the xubuntu-docs project is linked to the package for translations
<adiroiban> does this applied to distributions?
<adiroiban> i think this feature is available only for projects
<mdke> adiroiban: I think the link between the project and the package should do the trick, but I'm not 100% sure
<adiroiban> j1mc: try
<adiroiban> mdke: i'm not sure it will
<adiroiban> i will check with Rosetta guys and Arne
<mdke> for speed, it's probably better to add manually too, I guess
<adiroiban> mdke: i don't know how?
<adiroiban> mdke: i don't know how. can you do it?
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> let me see
<adiroiban> i don't see any upload button
<adiroiban> I can only upload updated pot files
<adiroiban> j1mc: why do we have a different folders layout in xubuntu-docs?
<adiroiban> i was thinking to use the same layout as ubuntu-docs
<mdke> damn, I can't see an upload button either
<adiroiban> and it will be easier to share script
<adiroiban> scripts
<mdke> adiroiban: we'll rearrange the folder structure for karmic but I think it's too risky to change it now for jaunty
<j1mc> adiroiban: it was changed around by someone when they went to build the package for me.  i'll change the structure to match ubuntu docs for karmic.
<adiroiban> ok
<adiroiban> it's ok for karmin
<j1mc> i've rerun the get-pot.sh
<adiroiban> karmic
<j1mc> :)
<mdke> j1mc: go ahead and push the new pot files to the branch
<j1mc> i removed the reference in the get-pot.sh script to .omf files, as we don't use them in xubuntu
<adiroiban> mdke: for karmic, maybe we can implement the bzr branch sync in Rosetta
 * mdke nods
<mdke> adiroiban: yeah
<adiroiban> mdke: but in this way ubuntu-docs will not be listed in the main ubuntu list
<j1mc> grr... i was working in the karmic branch, need to refresh the pot files in the jaunty branch
<mdke> adiroiban: we're evaluating some issues about Launchpad structure for karmic at the moment, we'll see how it turns out
<j1mc> i modified the shipped-docs and reran the get-pot.sh script, but it doesn't appear to have generated new pot templates for games and hardware
<mdke> what was the output of the script?
<mdke> did it include games and hardware?
<mdke> maybe you're running into an issue with the directory structure as "libs" has been moved to under desktop-guide, so you'll need to move the scripts directory too, as adi suggested
 * mdke pops for lunch
<adiroiban> mdke:  Bon AppÃ©tit :)
<j1mc> mdke: good suggestion, but i had moved the scripts file into the desktop guide temporarily before running get-pot.sh
<adiroiban> j1mc: i can look into that problem
<j1mc> mdke: enjoy your lunch :)
<j1mc> adiroiban: thanks
<adiroiban> j1mc: we should run xmllint on add-applications and see how to fix it
<j1mc> adiroiban: the xubuntu docs are a bit different than the ubuntu docs.
<j1mc> ours are kind of a meta-document, beginning from the index.xml file
<j1mc> if you look at the index.xml file, it provides links to each of the other xml documents
<adiroiban> i see
<j1mc> so we validate index.xml
<j1mc> the individual documents themselves will show broken links, but if index.xml validates, then it is ok.
<adiroiban> that's right
<j1mc> i've clicked on the links within the actual html output, and they work, so we should be ok.
<adiroiban> i have ran the get-po.sh script
<adiroiban> (after deleting the omf check)
<adiroiban> and the hardware.pot and games.pot files have been generated
<j1mc> great :) thanks
<adiroiban> i will check with Rosetta guys and see how we can have them uploaded
<j1mc> adiroiban: thanks
<adiroiban> this is the page with "administrative" link ? http://194.54.129.79/xubuntu-docs-jaunty/html/add-applications/ace/gnome-app-install.html
<j1mc> adiroiban: are you running jaunty?
<adiroiban> right now I'm in hardy
<adiroiban> but I can reboot
<j1mc> hm, ok.  np
<j1mc> i've tested it on my jaunty install with xubuntu-docs 9.04.1, and it works
<adiroiban> ok
<j1mc> links to "administrative tasks" via an "administrative" link work.
<adiroiban> for now we can ignore the "linkend references" errors
<adiroiban> i will modify my scripts to include the index.xml
<j1mc> thanks, adiroiban
<adiroiban> we will need to see how to add i18n support in libs/xubuntu.ent
<adiroiban> all those string are not translated
<j1mc> do files in the libs folder need to be translated?  i don't understand
<j1mc> the menu references don't get translated?  so if i say go to File > Open ...
<adiroiban> if they are string
<j1mc> that doesn't get translated?
<adiroiban> let me check
<adiroiban> but at a first look i don't think they are translated
<adiroiban> it's ok
 * j1mc is relieved :)
<adiroiban> no, it's not ok
<adiroiban> :(
<adiroiban> http://194.54.129.79/xubuntu-docs-jaunty/html/add-applications/it/gnome-app-install.html
<adiroiban> https://translations.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/jaunty/+source/xubuntu-docs/+pots/add-applications/it/54/+translate
<j1mc> hm... "the section called"  :(
<adiroiban> the <xref linkend="advanced"/> strings are not translated
<j1mc> that doesn't seem italian. :(
<adiroiban> and that string can not be translated
<adiroiban> in Rosetta
<adiroiban> we can upload in xubuntu.ent.pot file
<adiroiban> and then for each xml, include the translated ent file
<j1mc> this is not a problem in ubuntu docs?
<adiroiban> there are no such links in ubuntu-docs
<adiroiban> .... we have gnome-menus.ent
<adiroiban> in ubuntu-docs
<j1mc> right
<j1mc> they are both just .ent files, though, so i don't understand why one would work, and one wouldn't work.
<adiroiban> i don't know... i'm investigating
<mdke> adiroiban: you don't need an ent.pot file, entitites are expanded and included in pot files for the relevant document
<mdke> that's what the -e flag to xml2po does
<mdke> not sure what causes that error though
<adiroiban> yes. the ent is included in the translated xml
<adiroiban> but I can not find the source for "the section called"
<adiroiban> same page: ubuntu-docs http://l10n.ubuntu.tla.ro/ubuntu-docs-jaunty/html/add-applications/it/offline.html#aptoncd
<adiroiban> xubuntu-docs: http://194.54.129.79/xubuntu-docs-jaunty/html/add-applications/it/offline.html#APTonCD
<mdke> there is no source for that
<mdke> it is added by the xsl when the html is built, it's automatic for ulink links
<mdke> do you see the error when opening the translated xml file in yelp?
<adiroiban> no
<adiroiban> and the xml is translated
<mdke> ok, so it's a problem with the html build process
<adiroiban> well in yelp instead of "the section called - X" , we have "Section 1 - X"
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> what's the value of the entity "language" in index.xml?
<adiroiban> and I  think this is a yelp string
<adiroiban> en
<mdke> adiroiban: when yelp displays xml, it converts them to html on the fly. It uses simple xsl from gnome-doc-utils to transform it
<mdke> so that xsl turns <xref linkend=""/> to "Section X - Y"
<adiroiban> in the Italian add-applications.xml file we have ENTITY language "en"
<mdke> I don't *think* that should matter, because the html build shouldn't use it, but try changing it and see if it helps
<mdke> no, it's the same in ubuntu-docs, that's not the problem
<adiroiban> maybe because I don't have  the italian language support installed
<mdke> no, that's not it either
<mdke> the difference between the two links on the first page, where one works, and one doesn't, is that the first is a <link> and the second is an <xref>
<mdke> hmm. Don't know the answer to that
<mdke> once the translations have been imported and the branch updated, I'll take a look
<adiroiban> j1mc: can you rerunt the get-pot.sh script
<adiroiban> removing the "omf"
<j1mc> ok
<adiroiban> push it to bzr branch, and link the translation to it?
<adiroiban> mdke , j1mc if a huge part of "add-applications" is identical in ubuntu-docs and xubuntu-docs , why do we have separate xml files?
<j1mc> i reran the get-pot.sh, but because the strings were the same, bzr doesn't recognize any changes.  pot files already existed for harware.xml and games.xml
<adiroiban> ok
<j1mc> bzr status
<adiroiban> then just enable the translations
<mdke> adiroiban: because they are separate packages
<j1mc> oops... one moment
<mdke> but we'll be talking about how xubuntu and ubuntu can share docs better in the next release cycle
<j1mc> if i push anything, it will only be updating the shipped-docs file, and the get-pot.sh file
<adiroiban> maybe the pot files were already there
<mdke> not in my branch
<adiroiban> :)
<mdke> if you've moved the scripts folder and edited libs/shipped-docs, it's definitely worth pushing those changes
<j1mc> mdke: well, i moved the scripts folder, and then moved it back. some of the scripts don't work with the current setup
<j1mc> i've pushed those changes up though
<nhandler> Is it possible to have an <informaltable> with only a <thead> and no <tbody>?
#ubuntu-doc 2009-04-12
<nhandler> Anyone here?
<bencrisford> Can everyone attend the ubuntu-doc meetings?  I would be interested to attend and see how they run...
<jpds> bencrisford: Sure, all Ubuntu meetings are open to anyone.
<bencrisford> :) ok then
<bencrisford> thanks
<nhandler> mdke_: ping
<mdke_> nhandler: (In case I'm not around at the moment, please provide a bit of information about what you want and I will respond when I get back)
<nhandler> Is there anyone here that would be willing to look over a docbook file I made?
#ubuntu-doc 2010-04-12
<mdke> DarkwingDuck: we don't know. it's a topic we'll need to discuss when planning for the next release
<newz2000> Hi, I need to move the content from http://www.ubuntu.com/products/whatisubuntu/serveredition/techspecs to an appropriate place elsewhere
<newz2000> maybe help.ubuntu.com/Community
<newz2000> Can someone help me understand the processes for doing this?
<ZachK_> newz2000: whaz up?
<newz2000> hi ZachK_
<ZachK_> newz2000: what do you need?
<newz2000> ZachK_: I need to move some pages from www.ubuntu.com to somewhere
<newz2000> http://www.ubuntu.com/products/whatisubuntu/serveredition/techspecs
<newz2000> maybe to help.ubuntu.com or the wiki, not sure what is best
<ZachK_> the wiki is pointed toward people having personal pages and teams having there info.... for example https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ZachK_ (mine)
<ZachK_> the help.ubuntu.com is for documentation of help and such
<newz2000> ok, so this is documentation
<ZachK_> but since the Ubuntu.com site is non-editable you would have to hand type it all not copy and paste so much
<newz2000> ZachK_: I can edit the ubuntu.com site, I'm the webmaster
<ZachK_> and yes this is documentation and wiki stuff
<ZachK_> newz2000: ah....
<newz2000> ZachK_: but I'm not sure what the procedures are for managing help.u.c
<ZachK_> what do you want done is the question...just a transfer of info?
<newz2000> Yes, the ubuntu site is getting updated and this content doesn't really fit well there
<newz2000> Feels more "documentation" I guess
<ZachK_> Search for it first to see if it's not there already(sometimes it can be) if it's not I can just make a page real quick...(I'm the Wiki FG Lead)
<ZachK_> not sure if you know what that is
<newz2000> ok, let me do some searching
<newz2000> Hmm... no, not really, though the server guide PDF is close
<ZachK_> my page should have most the info that you'd need
<ZachK_> links and such
<newz2000> ZachK_: can you suggest a url scheme to use?
<ZachK_> for?
<ZachK_> sorry i work the night shift so i'm like way wacked out since ive not been to bed
<newz2000> the server technical docs?
<ZachK_> oh...
<newz2000> sorry, that wasn't ment to be a question
<newz2000> http://www.ubuntu.com/products/whatisubuntu/serveredition/techspecs
<ZachK_> https://help.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/serveredition/techspecs ?
<ZachK_> without the ? sign
<newz2000> ZachK_: that would have it outside of the wiki though wouldn't it?
<ZachK_> that would be on help.ubuntu.com yes
<newz2000> Is that OK?
<ZachK_> that's where it would belong
<newz2000> ok, so I'm not familiar with how to manage content outside of the wiki on help.u.c
<ZachK_> wiki.ubuntu.com is like i said for team pages, focus group pages, release notes, personal pages for people things like that
<newz2000> ZachK_: yes, and as I understand it, help.u.c/community is a wiki
<newz2000> but help.u.c/ubuntu/serveredition isn't a wiki (correct me if I'm wrong)
<newz2000> so how does a person get documentation into that URL?
<ZachK_> well the https://www.help.ubuntu.com/ would stay the same...since i can edit that site, the community part that is you just add the /ubuntu/serveredition/specs to the end and it will tell if that page is not yet been made, if there is a page with a similar name, things like tha
<ZachK_> *that
<newz2000> ZachK_: so are you saying to publish this content as https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ubuntu/serveredition or as https://help.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/serveredition ?
<ZachK_> yup
<ZachK_> I can do it for ya
<newz2000> which one of those URLs are correct? (one is in the community wiki)
<newz2000> (and I don't see anything in the help.u.c/community/ubuntu/serveredition or help.u.c/community/ubuntu url spaces)
<ZachK_> https://help.ubuntu.com/ is where this would go
<newz2000> ZachK_: ok, if you create the page for me I'll copy the content over to it.
<ZachK_> ok what url do you want exactly? the last part that is
<ZachK_> ubuntu/serveredtion or ubuntu/serveredition/tech
<newz2000> the second option
<ZachK_> ubuntu/serveredition/tech?
<newz2000> ZachK_: sounds great
<ZachK_> ok just a sec here
 * ZachK_ breaks out the super keyboard
<ZachK_> i can't login to the help.ubuntu.com/community
<ZachK_> the code for logging in is busted
<ZachK_> (77, 'Problem with the SSL CA cert (path? access rights?)')If you want to report a bug, please save this page and attach it to your bug report.Show debugging informationÂ Report bugÂ Visit MoinMoin wiki
<newz2000> ZachK_: ok, so you're just creating help.ubuntu.com/community/ubuntu/serveredition/tech ?
<ZachK_> that's what i was trying to do but if i can't login i can't edit
<newz2000> ok, I can do that myself later when it's working again
<ZachK_> i'll try later
<newz2000> I was under the impression something else was going on
 * ZachK_ needs some doc work to do
<ZachK_> just let me do it man..i'll even copy the info and maybe spice it up a little bit too for ya as a bonus
 * ZachK_ is feeling very generous right now....(maybe that's the no sleep and too much coffee?)
<ZachK_> newz2000: ?
<newz2000> ZachK_: ok, sounds cool
<ZachK_> alright...
<newz2000> I just pinged the sysadmins to see if they can help w/ the ssl error
<ZachK_> ok cool..it was working yesterday so idk what it was..but i need to go to sleep for a bit before i drop
<ZachK_> nice to meet ya to by the way
 * newz2000 tips his hat
<newz2000> ZachK_: ok, it's fixed
<ZachK_> ok...
<ZachK_> I'll make that up for ya in a few hours cool?
<newz2000> ZachK_: so cool it is beyond description
<ZachK_> alrighty then
<newz2000> Give me a ping if you get tired and I'll pick it up
<ZachK_> i'll ping ya when it's done.....
<ZachK_> I'll start around 5:00 pm or so but it'll take less than two hours at most
<mdke> sommer: take a look at the conversation above when you get a moment
<mdke> sommer, newz2000, ZachK_ - I would ordinarily say that new material should be integrated with existing if possible, i.e. the pages at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Servers
<mdke> I wouldn't worry about changing the url to something more consistent with other pages in the wiki
#ubuntu-doc 2010-04-13
<ZachK_> mdke: ping
<mdke> ZachK_: (In case I'm not around at the moment, please provide a bit of information about what you want and I will respond when I get back)
<ZachK_> mdke: Ah just wanted to talk with you about that server page....
<ZachK_> newz2000: ping
<newz2000> hey ZachK_, I'm here if you're still around
<newz2000> actually, I'm not sure I'm going to make it much further, I'll try to check back in a bit but otherwise will have to catch up w/ you tomorrow
<ZachK_> newz2000: just wanted to say that i think that page should stay on the ubuntu main site
<newz2000> ZachK_: why's that?
<ZachK_> one because of the pure amount of info and second where are people gonna look right away when they check out the server edition
<ZachK_> the page that the server edition is listed as an os
<newz2000> yeah, we'll still link to it there
<ZachK_> that would be repetitive
<newz2000> Unfortunately, the decision has been made already
<ZachK_> TOO repetitive
<newz2000> (not by me)
<newz2000> but I think it can be made to work...
<newz2000> it is also a bit documentation-like
<newz2000> And yes, it is quite a bit of info. :-(
<ZachK_> ok i'll try to fit it in/confer with some guys i know to figure out what we should do with it
<newz2000> ok
<newz2000> if you come up with anything let me know
<newz2000> I am prepared to move the content over, so tomorrow when I come back online I can start on it
<ZachK_> roger that
<newz2000> ok, I'm going to bed then
<newz2000> I'll ttyl
<ZachK_> Roger
<mo-germany> Hi everyone. Regarding Kubuntu Docs: Where do I send translated screenshots?
<mo-germany> has anyone got any idea where I could send screenshots in my language?
<mo-germany> BTW: Just reported https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/kubuntu-docs/+bug/562390 - would be nice if this could be fixed for lucid
<ubot4`> Launchpad bug 562390 in kubuntu-docs (Ubuntu) "many instructions in -desktop are wrong (affects: 1) (heat: 6)" [Undecided,New]
<nixternal> mo-germany: to late to fix in lucid
<mo-germany> nixternal: so it's not possible to simply remove the instructions concerning ctrl+alt+backspace?
<nixternal> would removing them be a fix though?
<mo-germany> hm, as it's not possible to re-enable the keycombo through the GUI anymore, I would say so
<mo-germany> of course it's no fix for the dead link, but maybe this could be automagically adjusted in the translations as well?
<nixternal> oh, they got rid of the little check mark
<nixternal> i noticed that a while ago..
 * nixternal smacks whoever did the -desktop topic
<nixternal> see, the final package upload is in 1 week, right before release freeze
<mo-germany> nixternal: so, is that possible to do?
<nixternal> it is possible, but i feel it is way to late in the game to make changes that aren't grave or may cause damage to a person's computer
<mo-germany> hm, okay, I just felt stupid translating instructions which are plain and simple wrong
<nixternal> yeah, i don't blame you...i will smack DarkwingDuck around as I think he worked on that :D
<nixternal> hrmm
<mo-germany> I won't hold you back ;-) anyways ... as I stated in the bug report, some members of the German translation team are willing to help with the next version, as the diction could still be improved
<mo-germany> *in the other bug report
 * nixternal looks to make sure nothing links to it
<nixternal> damn, there is one link to it, and removing the link would make me have to modify the text then in that line
<mo-germany> where is that?
<man0riaX> Heya
<DarkwingDuck> mo-germany, nixternal: I missed that?
 * DarkwingDuck smacks himself
#ubuntu-doc 2010-04-14
<newz2000> is it pretty common to get 503 proxy errors when saving to help.ubuntuc.om?
#ubuntu-doc 2010-04-15
<timClicks> I've think I've found an exception that may need to be made to the string freeze, a ghelp tag is incorrect upstream
<timClicks> so, strictly, this doesn't affect the translated text, but it is part of the documentation
<timClicks> in the lightsout package, the License section of the help
<timClicks> renders "This program is free software; you can redistribute it and/or modify it under
<timClicks> the terms of the  gnome-help:gpl..."
<mo-germany> I know I already asked this two days ago, but one last try: does anyone know where to send lokalized screenshots for the kubuntu docs
<mo-germany> maybe DarkwingDuck? (You worked on it â¦)
<DarkwingDuck> mo-germany:  You can send them to me (darkwingduck@kubuntu.org) Or nixternal (nixternal@kubuntu.org)
<mo-germany> DarkwingDuck: Thanks, whenâs the deadline? Is it okay if I send them tomorrow?
<mo-germany> DarkwingDuck, nixternal: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/kubuntu-docs/+bug/563903
<ubot4`> Launchpad bug 563903 in kubuntu-docs (Ubuntu) "Screenshot in -cli missing (affects: 1)" [Undecided,New]
<nixternal> mo-germany: thanks...fixing that now
<mo-germany> great, thanks :)
<nixternal> fixed
<mo-germany> nixternal: small update: K3B screenshot in -audio is missing as well
<nixternal> mo-germany: fixed, thanks
#ubuntu-doc 2011-04-12
<j1mc> hallo. anyone around?
<shaunm> hi j1mc
<j1mc> hi shaunm
<j1mc> shaunm: i'm working ubuntu docs... from the gnome help, i really like the user and system settings layout
<j1mc> what do you think about it?
<shaunm> the grid layout on prefs.page?
<shaunm> I'm really liking that layout more and more for those kinds of guides
 * shaunm does a bzr merge, hopes that's the right command
<j1mc> shaunm: here's a video: http://blip.tv/file/5007376
<j1mc> shaunm: try this: http://blip.tv/file/get/J1mc-Ubuntu1104HelpDraft735.ogv
<shaunm> this is nice
<j1mc> i was re-working the networking help to be like that, but it's a lot of work.
<j1mc> and i wanted to get feedback before i did it.
<j1mc> any idea how stuff like "orca" handles that?
<shaunm> that's a good question
<shaunm> I could see that pile of links as being meaningless when read by a screen reader
<j1mc> yeah.
<shaunm> I might need to put in some tagging to make navigation easier
<j1mc> is the approach you've been talking about on the gnome list any better in that regard?
<shaunm> maybe piggyback on title navigation. not sure. I'd have to have a chat with joanie
<shaunm> my patches to gnome-doc-list were basically doing to hardware.page what you already see on prefs.page
<j1mc> hi mimico
<mimico> j1mc, hi
<shaunm> j1mc: can you give me some bzr help?
<shaunm> I did a 'bzr merge', assuming that would just get me all your changes from the server
<shaunm> but the changes were applied, but not as commits
<tsimpson> shaunm: you use "bzr pull" to pull down the changes, "bzr merge" is for merging your working tree with another, which you can then commit
<shaunm> tsimpson: ah, thanks. so how do I throw away all these uncommitted changes?
<tsimpson> you should be able to do "bzr revert" to get back to the previous state
<shaunm> excellent, thanks
<shaunm> j1mc: http://people.gnome.org/~shaunm/ubuntu/index.html
<shaunm> I realize the mouseovers are messed up
<shaunm> actually...
<shaunm> fixed now
<j1mc> shaunm: thanks.  is it possible to have the left-margin aligned a bit more consistently? The Ubuntu logo and text shows as about two and a half inches more to the left than the mouseover-images and the sections.
<j1mc> that is how it is on my screen, anyway
<j1mc> brb
<shaunm> j1mc: it's 144 pixels, actually. just trying to follow the style guide you sent me, e.g. page 10
<j1mc> hm, weird.
<j1mc> i'm off to lunch w/ a friend, but will check back later.
<mdke> j1mc: heya, how's it going?
<mdke> exceptional work you and jbicha are doing
<j1mc> mdke: thanks. jbicha has been a big help
<mdke> j1mc: my upload of this morning doesn't appear to have been accepted so I don't know whether we will have something in for beta2.
<jbicha> thanks, I've just had some extra time and happy to have found an important area to contribute in
<j1mc> makes sense.
<mdke> j1mc: but I'd like to upload something asap anyway to fix (a) the screenshot size issue, and (b) if possible any stub pages linked in the index (e.g. addremove)
<mdke> j1mc: if it doesn't get accepted for beta2, so be it
<j1mc> exactly
<j1mc> i'm also doing some work to get some of the old ubuntu help integrated.
<mdke> ooh, I see a lot of deleted screenshots, cool
<j1mc> for example, the current help doesn't have any info on add-remove-programs
<j1mc> i'm doing that work in a separate branch, though
<mdke> are you still using natty-unity as the main branch?
<mdke> for me it duplicates the natty branch
<j1mc> yes, i have been.  we can move it to the natty branch, though
<j1mc> i created a separate working branch for some of the refactoring.
<mdke> Let's move over to natty, I've been synching them anyway
<j1mc> ok
<mdke> I've updated the Makefile for the image deletions
<j1mc> if you go to the "System Settings" section... I've been working to combine the two networking sections into one
<j1mc> mdke: great.
<j1mc> ... so the networking would be just one section with subsections like the "System Settings" link off of the main page.
<mdke> sounds fine
<j1mc> with different subsections for wireless, wired, mobile, troubleshooting, web browsing, email, etc.
<mdke> try to stick as close as reasonable to upstream, in case we do this for the next release as well - it will be easiest to merge in upstream changes and improvements
<j1mc> so... we should just be pushing to the regular natty branch? not natty-unity?
<mdke> the greater the diff, the more difficult to resolve a conflict when merging
<mdke> j1mc: right. I've synched it again just now
<j1mc> i will try to actually push that change to upstream. i've talked about it with shaun
<mdke> neat
<j1mc> : )
<j1mc> he has been so helpful
<mdke> it's easy to do a diff on the upstream branch as well which is lp:gnome-user-docs/master
<mdke> you have all been doing great work with Gnome docs and yelp - it looks amazing
<j1mc> i hope we can get the web portion looking nice.
<mdke> ok, so when should I plan to do the next upload? Should I do one right away or wait for further changes?
<j1mc> let's review and merge jbicha's changes.  :)  then do another upload.
<j1mc> i suppose timing isn't that important now, if we aren't going to make beta 2
<mdke> ok. I'll be around for a couple of hours or I can do it before work tomorrow morning
<j1mc> either way is ok
<j1mc> thanks, mdke
<mdke> j1mc: I think that's true. We're writing off translations anyway as they will have no chance this cycle
<mdke> so timing doesn't matter too much
<j1mc> :/  i'm glad david has been ok with it.  we'll just have to be good about post-release updates.
<mdke> j1mc: what do you think about using ubuntu-docs as a "If you are using the Classic Gnome desktop" help centre
<j1mc> i think that's a good idea
<j1mc> would you mind sorting out that packaging?
<mdke> ok, so we could do a short index at something like "/usr/share/gnome/help/gnome-classic-index/C/gnome-classic-index.xml" in docbook which lists the other documents
<mdke> add that to the package and upload it in otherwise identical form to maverick
<mdke> you could then refer to the link ghelp:gnome-classic-index somewhere in gnome-user-docs to show it to people
<j1mc> mdke: yeah, i think so.  of course, if there have been updates to it... those should be included.  i think the entities were changed to reflect natty
<mdke> sure
<mdke> I'll do ubuntu-docs then
<j1mc> yes... that would be no problem.  cool!
<jbicha> so how do I switch my parent branch from natty-unity to natty?
<j1mc> jbicha: good question
<mdke> jbicha: you don't need to
<mdke> if you are working on a branch, you can continue to push to that and we can just merge from it when pulling in your changes
<mdke> then merge from natty into your branch whenever there are changes to natty
<jbicha> but I generally just do bzr pull to get the latest stuff
<mdke> for that you would need to get the natty branch onto your system and work from that
<j1mc> jbicha: i think bzr pull lp:~ [new path] would work
<mdke> that's sort of the conventional non-distributed vcs approach
<mdke> (as I understand it, I'm not a bzr expert)
<jbicha> ah, there we go, bzr pull --remember switches it
<j1mc> i'll be back later, all.
#ubuntu-doc 2011-04-13
<issyl0> Morning all.
<peppe84> Hi. A quick meno: remember to delete Rhythmbox instrction from natty ubuntu-docs ;-)
<issyl0> Heh, the latest email to the mailing list...
<mdke> hah
#ubuntu-doc 2011-04-14
<andrejz> Hello! I was wondering whether an update of packages is planned for 11.04?
<andrejz> We have done a lot of work translating both kubuntu and ubuntu-docs packages in the last 2 weeks and would be really happy if they were available to users in 11.04
#ubuntu-doc 2011-04-15
<rickspencer3> hi all
<rickspencer3> if I had some time this weekend to do a bit of writing, would there be anything useful that I could write for 11.04 desktop documentation?
<jbicha> rickspencer3: hi
<rickspencer3> hi jbicha
<jbicha> rickspencer3: We still need more content written to explain how to use Unity, have you used Mallard before?
<rickspencer3> jbicha, yeah, I've written in that format, if that's what you mean
<rickspencer3> for Quickly docs
<rickspencer3> I just write the XML tags in Gedit
<rickspencer3> pretty crude, but that's how I do it ;)
<jbicha> oh ok, I think most of us use Gedit
<rickspencer3> :)
<rickspencer3> jbicha, is there like a list of topics where i can pick a couple to work on?
<rickspencer3> whatever will hlep out
<jbicha> j1mc who has been leading this sprint posted this: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2011-April/015535.html
 * rickspencer3 looks
<jbicha> or you could check out our latest source from https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-doc/gnome-user-docs/natty and convert some of the Gnome Shell stuff over to Unity
<rickspencer3> jbicha, cool stuff
<rickspencer3> ok, I'll check it out tomorrow and see if there's somewhere I can help out
<jbicha> so either writing new pages from scratch or tweaking the existing stuff would be a big help
<jbicha> rickspencer3: thanks for stopping by!
<rickspencer3> jbicha, thank *you*
<rickspencer3> jbicha, I'll check this out tomorrow, but I'll probably stop back in before I start actually working on anything
 * issyl0 just committed some changes to https://code.launchpad.net/~issyl0/ubuntu-docs/issyl0 - I thought that was the easiest way of doing things (i.e. finding my feet in the project), as I don't have commit access to the main branch.
<rickspencer3> jbicha, hi
<rickspencer3> looking at the branch yesterday, it appeared that if I wrote something along the lines of:
<rickspencer3> 1. this is the dash, this is how it works
<rickspencer3> 2. this is the launcher, this is how it works
<rickspencer3> etc...
<rickspencer3> that would be helpful
<rickspencer3> however, I'm not 100% certain this hasn't been done, I suspect maybe I just didn't see it?
<jbicha> rickspencer3: hi, are you still there? I was offline for a few hours
<rickspencer3> hi jbicha
<rickspencer3> I was just about to leave, actually
<rickspencer3> :)
<rickspencer3> so, shall I writet an overview?
<rickspencer3> I could probably knock that out tomorrow
<jbicha> yes, unity-introduction is what we have so far but I don't believe anyone is working on it atm
<rickspencer3> jbicha, ok, I'll write an overview of the places, launcher, and multiple desktops
<rickspencer3> what you do with them, and how you do it
<rickspencer3> if nothing else, it could be fodder that could be carved up for other topics if I do it wrong
<jbicha> yes, that would be a big help as we're especially lacking on the Unity-specific overview topics
<rickspencer3> ok
<rickspencer3> I'll go for it this weekend and ping you all back when I'm done
<rickspencer3> thanks jbicha
#ubuntu-doc 2011-04-16
<mdke> j1mc: around?
<j1mc> mdke: i'm here
<j1mc> wasn't actively paying attn to IRC
#ubuntu-doc 2011-04-17
<mdke> j1mc: hi. Was just checking in to see how things are going
<mdke> j1mc: I've uploaded a package this morning, we'll see if it gets approved
<mdke> j1mc: the add/remove software topic is still empty, is someone working on that? if not I might work on it if i get time over the next day or two
<issyl0> Hi there.
<mdke> issyl0: heya!
<mdke> issyl0: welcome to the team, you've joined at a rather frenetic time so things probably seem a bit confused...
<issyl0> Hah, that's alright!  I like frantic - it gives projects personality.  :-)
<issyl0> So, what's going on, and what can I help out with?  :-)
<issyl0> I'm eager.
<mdke> i'm not sure ours is the greatest personality right now but it will get better hopefully with some new contributors around
<mdke> issyl0: essentially we are converting the Gnome 3 docs to fit with Unity at the last minute before natty releases
<mdke> issyl0: there are probably plenty of things to help with, probably j1mc is the person to check with to see what is being worked on
<issyl0> Oooh, yes, I'd seen a mailing list post about that.  Interesting!
<issyl0> OK, thanks.
<mdke> good to have you aboard
<issyl0> :-)
<j1mc> mdke: thanks for your help.
<issyl0> Ah yes, you may have seen: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~issyl0/ubuntu-docs/issyl0/view/head:/teamstuff/audience-analysis.xml , with a couple of edits referring to http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-doc/ubuntu-docs/natty/view/head:/teamstuff/audience-analysis.xml :-)
<j1mc> i'm sorting out the networking section, and should be able to wrap that up today.
<j1mc> that has been some interesting refactoring work because i wasn't sure how to get things to set things up how i wanted them.
<j1mc> i had to teach myself by looking at other examples.
<issyl0> (I read it, some of it didn't make sense, I realised I couldn't commit changes directly, I created my own branch of it.  That's the correct procedure initially, I hope?)
<j1mc> hi issyl0
<issyl0> Hi j1mc.  I'm looking to increase my involvement, and as mdke says you're the person I should talk to... :-)
<j1mc> :) thanks. what is drawing you in to docs? any area where you are looking to contribute in particular?
<issyl0> Oh, I just love documentation and would like to help out in any way I can.  I'm not so much of an author, but a keen editor.  And a quest for further knowledge draws me in, too.
<j1mc> mdke: what do you think of the web stuff?
<j1mc> issyl0: sounds good. are you familiar with bzr and launchpad at all?
<j1mc> also, what version of ubuntu are you using?
<j1mc> mdke: by "web stuff" i mean the draft of the xslt file that shaunm put together.
<issyl0> j1mc: Natty, Beta 2 on my desktop machine.  :-)
<mdke> j1mc: I think it looks excellent. We can tinker with it later once we have the final package sorted
<issyl0> j1mc: And yes, familiar with launchpad and bzr - they're great.
<issyl0> (I'm involved in the Ubuntu Manual project as well.)
<j1mc> issyl0: wonderful...
<j1mc> issyl0: as for how you can help us now, we are porting over the help from gnome3 to unity...
<j1mc> ... so the best way to help is to grab the current mallard sources from bzr...
<issyl0> OK.
<j1mc> ...and view them in yelp to see if the text makes sense for unity
<mdke> j1mc: what's the plan for the add/remove topic?
<j1mc> the branch that we're working on now is: https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-doc/gnome-user-docs/natty
<j1mc> mdke: i was going to port-over the ad-remove topics from the older ubuntu help.
<mdke> sounds good. do you think that is something issyl0 could have a go at?
<j1mc> probably. it might make for an interesting introduction to mallard. if issyl0 is comfortable with trying it, it is fine. if issyl0 wants to start on editing existing mallard pages, that would be an ok place to start, too.
<mdke> issyl0: have you already written in mallard?
<j1mc> i ported over a few topics already... i just copied/pasted the plain text from help.ubuntu.com, and then converted them to mallard manually.
<issyl0> mdke: Not that I can remember, so no.
<mdke> ah, perhaps it is too big a job then
<mdke> better to read a few existing topics and make corrections for natty
<issyl0> OK, cool.  Get to know it, then delve in with the other stuff at a later date.
<j1mc> issyl0: try getting the branch from launchpad, and we can walk through a few things... like how to view the help in yelp
<j1mc> some mallard basics, etc.
<issyl0> OK, will do - thanks. :-)
<mdke> j1mc: fyi the latest branch now has the user-guide reinstated alongside gnome-help, for the reasons discussed on the mailing list. I don't propose we touch user-guide any further though
<j1mc> mdke: sounds good. thanks very much for your help with that.
<mdke> np
<mdke> we can remove it next release, assuming Ubuntu uses Gnome3 apps
<j1mc> yeah... it is interesting... differences between unity and gnome 3 will affect help even at the application level.
<j1mc> updates to empathy help, for example, will talk about chat windows appearing at the bottom of the screen, etc.
 * mdke nods
<mdke> frustrating, but really it's a bit odd to be using Gnome help where Ubuntu has departed so drastically from Gnome
<issyl0> Yes!
<j1mc> yeah
<mdke> but for this release I think it's justified given that Gnome help was so far ahead of ours
<j1mc> and it is relatively easy to adapt topics where much of the structure, writing, linking, etc. already exists.
<j1mc> but i don't think we'll be following upstream closely in the future.
<mdke> indeed
<mdke> great shame
 * issyl0 reads about Mallard - interesting - doesn't look too bad.  :-)
<j1mc> issyl0: i hesitate to say that something is easy, but Mallard certainly has an easier learning curve than something like LaTeX. And once you see a few examples, hopefully you will be able to pick up on it.
<issyl0> LaTeX is lovely.  :-)
<j1mc> for PDF output, there is certainly nothing better.
<issyl0> Right, branch obtained.
<issyl0> Finally.
 * j1mc goes to look where we might need editing / porting help.
 * issyl0 blames living in the countryside for the slow internet.
<j1mc> issyl0: cool. to view the help in yelp, navigate to the branch you just pulled
<j1mc> then do: yelp gnome-help/C/
<issyl0> Ooh, nice.
<j1mc> the intro sections are still a WIP, but i would recommend checking out the other sections.
<j1mc> i'm looking to see if i can recommend an area to get started
<j1mc> i think, "user and system settings" would be a good place to start.
<issyl0> OK.
<j1mc> if you're in yelp, and you press Ctrl-l (that is an "L") you can see the name of the page that produces that document
<issyl0> Oh, yes.  And then if I find any errors, I can edit that document, and then save it and view it in yelp again to check everything is fine before committing?
<j1mc> exactly
<issyl0> Cool.
<j1mc> when you launch yelp from the terminal, the terminal output will also give you warnings if there are errors in your document.
<j1mc> like, if you forget to close a tag, or use a tag that doesn't exist
<issyl0> Great.
<j1mc> we have had a few other contributors ... for now, we are having them submit patches for review.
<j1mc> is that ok w/you? you could either submit them by email, or you could propose merges on launchpad.
<j1mc> either is fine.  patches by email should go to the mailing list, though.
<issyl0> Yep, I've noticed people submitting them to the mailing list.  That's fine.
<j1mc> excellente.  :)
<j1mc> thank you so much, issyl0
<j1mc> it sounds like you are set up ok to get started... i will be on irc here for a bit. do you have any questions for now?
<issyl0> No, that's fine for now - thank you!
<issyl0> Actually, I do have one: what do you class as patches, i.e. how do I generate them?  Is there a procedure, or do I just attach, say, a diff to the email?
<mdke> you can use "bzr diff > patchname.diff"
<issyl0> Ah, cool, thanks.
<j1mc> yes. i think another way is to do: "bzr send -o mycode.patch" that will propose a merge request on launchpad.
<issyl0> j1mc, mdke: Just sent a small patch to the mailing list - hopefully it was decent and worthwhile for a first one.  :-)
<j1mc> issyl0: cool. thanks! i will take a look
<issyl0> j1mc: Thanks for that.
<j1mc> issyl0: you are welcome. thanks again for the patch
<issyl0> No worries.  I'm about to do another few, but will do it the way you suggested.
<issyl0> Will that mean I submit them all separately?
<issyl0> But no.  I guess I just generate a .diff and then bzr send -o foo.diff ?
<issyl0> j1mc: ^
<issyl0> Although, hrm, weird: bzr diff > foo.diff still diffs my previous stuff, the things that have already committed.  Not that it knows that, even though I've pulled down the latest revisions.
<issyl0> All this is an experience, however.
<j1mc> issyl0: hmmm... weird, did you do bzr update?
<j1mc> sorry, i am a bit in-and-out of looking at IRC
<issyl0> j1mc: Yep, I did.
<j1mc> hm, frankly i know git a bit better than i know bzr.
<issyl0> Git is lovely.
<j1mc> maybe try bzr merge
<issyl0> As far as bzr goes, I definitely prefer just straight bzr commit / bzr push.  But it's all a learning experience!
<j1mc> yeah... sorry, maybe ask in the #bzr channel
 * j1mc lurves 'git pull --rebase'
<j1mc> what i typically do is "bzr bind lp:~path/to/branch"
<j1mc> i think that helps with doing 'bzr update' ... it processes the commit as a commit when the updates come through.
<j1mc> i need to step away for a bit, but . . . will be available via email.
<j1mc> thanks again for your help.
<jbicha> issyl0: howdy & welcome!
<issyl0> Hey!
<issyl0> bzr send -o patch.diff isn't working for me.  Well, the .diff doesn't generate correctly based on *new* changes - it still records the old ones, even though I've pulled down those revisions that were committed... :-/
<issyl0> It's weird.
<jbicha> you have to do bzr commit first
<jbicha> and you can do bzr status or bzr diff to see what it's about to commit
<issyl0> Oh, right.  Of course - silly me!  :D
<issyl0> Thanks.  Should have realised that.
<jbicha> nah, bzr has a lot of buttons and it takes a while to figure out
 * issyl0 is used to the bzr commit / bzr push cycle, not the bzr commit / bzr diff / whatever cycle - didn't occur to me!
<issyl0> Hah, buttons?  THE COMMAND LINE.  :-)
<jbicha> haha, same thing to me
<issyl0> But yes, cool: now I realise why: if you don't commit it, it doesn't know what to say about the changes when they're merged.  :-)
<issyl0> So after I've committed, I do bzr diff > foo.diff and then bzr send -o foo.diff?  That's logical.
<issyl0> jbicha: ^
<jbicha> I've never used bzr send, I just attach the diff to my email manually
<jbicha> see, bzr has too many "buttons"
<issyl0> Hehe.
<jbicha> I've also been using bzr bundle to make a diff, not sure which is better for the reviewers
<issyl0> And OK.  That's what I did this morning but was told to use bzr send later on - it's all a learning experience, delving into parts of bzr I've never delved into before.
<issyl0> OK.
<jbicha> and to make the merges easier on my end, I uncommit and revert after each patch I send, but once again I don't know if that's a good idea or not
<issyl0> Hrm.  That sounds bizarre, but I can see why you do it - to avoid conflicts when you generate other diffs/commit more.  Hrm.
<jbicha> that, and j1mc likes to "improve" my patches :-) so there's bound to be merge conflicts & I don't know how to resolve that very well otherwise
<issyl0> Mmhmmm.  :-)
<issyl0> So I've just done bzr send -o patchone.diff - hopefully that'll work.
<jbicha> oops, that didn't work, my email patch was too big & is being held in the moderator queue
<jbicha> I guess I'll have to get @mdke to rescue it for me, lol
<issyl0> jbicha: Oops.
<jbicha> I was updating pictures so those files are big
<jbicha> issyl0: yes, you can do bzr push instead
<jbicha> to your private branch
<jbicha> I do bzr push lp:~jbicha/gnome-user-docs/name-of-my-branch
<issyl0> jbicha: Cool.  I'll do that then.  :-)
<jbicha> but j1mc already applied the patch you sent to the mailing list earlier anyway
<issyl0> Yep, I noticed.
<mdke> jbicha: that really is a huge email, probably better not to allow it through to the mailing list. Can you do a merge request instead?
<mdke> jbicha: just because we have a lot of people subscribed to the mailing list and that is quite a large download for som
<mdke> jbicha: on your question above, one option is to push a new branch for every set of changes that you are working on. So you keep the main branch in your repository, and then just create a new branch off it for each task you are working on
<mdke> then you can push that one to its own branch in Launchpad and do your merge request
<issyl0> I did wonder earlier, looking through the .po files, why there were files for, say, ES, but not for FR?
 * issyl0 could help out with FR, if need be.
<issyl0> But I don't know how translations work for the GNOME stuff, admittedly.
<mdke> issyl0: those are upstream translations of the Gnome 3 stuff; all the languages are at an early stage and I think FR hasn't yet got going perhaps
<issyl0> Ah, right.
<mdke> after the release we will be calling for translation work on our amended material though, so you could well be able to help :)
<mdke> it will be a big job
<issyl0> I'm up for trying!
 * issyl0 lived in France for four years, to clarify...
<mdke> very nice
<mdke> what's your country now, UK?
<issyl0> Yep.
<mdke> me too
<issyl0> Cool - anywhere interesting?
 * issyl0 is quite near London.
<mdke> nowhere interesting at the moment I'm afraid
<mdke> Canada Water, south east london
<mdke> right now I'm in Southern Italy though, a lot more interesting :)
<jbicha> mdke: can you approve my email in the ubuntu-doc moderation queue
<mdke> jbicha: did you see my response to that above?
<jbicha> mdke: oh, no I didn't
<mdke> have a look, if it's a problem I can approve it but I'd rather now
<jbicha> I don't understand how merging works, should I make a new branch for every small set of changes?
<mdke> jbicha: you can do yes. It's very much a question of how you prefer to work though
<mdke> jbicha: certainly for big changes it is worth doing so
<issyl0> mdke: Mm, Italy.
<jbicha> because I have like 5 different patches I've submitted to the mailing list, should I make one big changeset or stack them on top of each other in the same branch or just use different branches?
<mdke> once the branch has been merged into the main one, you can discard it and move on to the next one
<jbicha> I want whatever's easiest for the guy reviewing them :-)
<mdke> i would create a new branch for each set of changes that affect the same file or group of files with the same subject matter
<mdke> i have to check out now, bed time
<mdke> thanks both for your work so far, it's great to have some new faces
<mdke> jbicha: if you haven't found another solution, just tell me and I'll approve the email in the morning
<jbicha> each is a different set of files
<jbicha> ah, there we go, giant merge request, we'll see how that goes tomorrow
<jbicha> and I'm out for the evening
#ubuntu-doc 2012-04-09
<kevdog> Anyone listening on this channel?
<kevdog> ms. daisy hang in here?
<bodhizazen> hey kevdog , this channel can be quite sometimes
<bobweaver> Hello not sure if this could help out the doc team or not but here ya go http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynrIO9tJcVQ&feature=youtu.be         <~ Video | Forum ~> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1949027&page=5
<bobweaver> Hello there I would love to talk to some people about this https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Wiki/Tasks/Forum/import     I have made a script that you can see here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynrIO9tJcVQ&feature=g-upl&context=G2f05606AUAAAAAAAAAA    I have also made a LP team here https://launchpad.net/~ubforums2ubwiki     where I will be hosting the code. Some things that want to talk about.  How to connect the new team that I c
<bobweaver> reated with ubuntu doc team ? would any one like to help with this. Also I am looking for a fellow named Phil I think that is in charge of the community wiki. I need to delete some test ones that I was working on. Thanks for your time.
<jbicha> there's no one person in charge of the help.ubuntu.com wiki
<bobweaver> thanks jbicha
<bobweaver> Is there a launchpad team for help.ubuntu.com wiki ?
#ubuntu-doc 2012-04-10
<xi23> when you go to edit a page and click show editing options and then there isn't anything but logout... what does that mean? is the wiki broken? or is the page just locked (temporarily?)? is it some security measure for abuse based on ip range?
<bodhi_zazen> what page xi23 ?
<xi23> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuPre-installed
<bodhi_zazen> sec . logging in now
<bodhi_zazen> you asking about the "show editing options" tab at the bottom right ?
<xi23> yes
<bodhi_zazen> It just shows / hides the menu at the bottom
<xi23> right- but when you click show.... there is nothing but logout for me.
<xi23> on the menu
<bodhi_zazen> "Edit  Page_History Subscribe Attachments More Actions recent_changes wiki_guide Preferences Logout"
<bodhi_zazen> Those are the menu options I see ^^
<xi23> yea- i'm not seeing that
<bodhi_zazen> The entire bar disappears if I click "edit"
<xi23> when the bar is up i don't see anything other than logout
<bodhi_zazen> you blocking cookies or java script ?
<xi23> i got a feeling i am blocked or maybe my ip range or something.
<xi23> i don't think so
<bodhi_zazen> what browser ?
<xi23> i tried in firefox and chrome with ubuntu 11.04
<xi23> actually- i changed ip addresses  (range too)
<xi23> i can't conceive of why i would be blocked though
<xi23> unless somebody was confused about a change i made maybe... and complained? i don't know.
<bodhi_zazen> NoScript ?
<bodhi_zazen> Proxy ?
<xi23> nope.
<xi23> i tried with chrome too remember
<xi23> i'm going to disable all plug-ins though to see what happens
<xi23> with all plug-ins disabled it still doesn't work
<xi23> i just tried with a fresh install of ubuntu 12.04 on a different system and it does the same thing
<xi23> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuPre-installed?action=edit says You are not allowed to edit this page.
<sagaci> xi23, make sure you're logged in
<xi23> i have
<xi23> it literally says log out on the editing bar
<xi23> :)
<sagaci> xi23, well I'm able to edit it
<xi23> yea- i think i'm banned for some reason. that is my suspicion. although i have a way to test it i think.
<xi23> frustrating. now i have to figure out who and why.
<xi23> i would think they would be less liberal... although it could be nothing to do with me. maybe all non-admins or something like that are having this problem.
<jbicha> dpm: feature request for http://91.189.93.101/ - include translated screenshots if they're available
<dpm> hi jbicha, good point, it should be easily doable by modifying the Makefile that builds the html (right now it just copies the original screenshots IIRC). I'll see if I can have a go at it tomorrow
<dpm> it should be a matter of fixing this make target:
<dpm> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-doc/ubuntu-docs/precise/view/head:/html/Makefile#L79
<jbicha> ah ok
#ubuntu-doc 2012-04-11
<sw> hi. is there a way to clear a pages' revision history after it's been deleted?
<sw> hi. is it possible to delete the revision history of a page after it's been deleted?
<sw> (on Ubuntu wiki)
<peppe84> sw, no. if not physically deleting the file revision from the server.
<mhall119> jbicha: ping
<sw> peppe84: oh, so I'm out of luck?
<mhall119> jbicha: bkerensa: can I get you guys to fill out the documentation contributors for 12.04? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PrecisePangolin/ReleaseNotes/Credits/DocsTeam
<Darkwing> mhall119: you want to the Kubuntu guys too?
<mhall119> Darkwing: may as well, create a new section for Kubuntu User Guide
<Darkwing> mhall119: Okay. :)
#ubuntu-doc 2012-04-12
<trijntje> Hi all, is there a way to get the Dutch ubuntu-docs as a pdf?
<trijntje> *more precisely, a printer friendly version in any format
<peppe84> trijntje, I have try for italian version. But my result is only an epub without images.
<peppe84> so, i'm iterested in.
<trijntje> We would like to have some manual to hand out during the release party for precise, so layout is quite important, but I have no idea if it's possible
<peppe84> I agree
<jbicha_> trijntje: mallard is topic based and isn't as ideal for a printed manual
<jbicha_> you can export to html though
<shaunm> trijntje: yelp-build (part of yelp-tools) can give you an epub file. that might be easier to get to a single pdf with, since it's already linearized
#ubuntu-doc 2012-04-13
<trijntje> shaunm: thanks, I'll give that a try
<mpt> Yo, does anyone know the number of the bug report where the help is hard to find in Ubuntu?
<mpt> as in, it's hard to find the help viewer in the first place
<mpt> I don't see it in the ubuntu-docs bug list
<jbicha> mpt: I think it's bug 860501 now
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 860501 in unity "User Documentation should be easier to access" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/860501
<mpt> That's the one, thanks jbicha
<mpt> I bring good tidings: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MenuBar#system-status
<jbicha> mpt: cool, thanks!
<jbicha> mpt: Are you thinking that "About This Computer" would point to the Details panel in System Settings?
<mpt> jbicha, for now, though separately I'd like to split that out into its own window
<mpt> "Details" is the junk drawer of System Settings
<jbicha> ooh, on/off switches for the indicators would be nice
<jbicha> oh and it's already on the Design blog, that was fast
<dpm> hi jbicha, not sure if it's a bug, but it seems an image is missing from the docs source tree
<dpm>  artnay, which images are missing?
<dpm> <artnay> dpm: for example http://91.189.93.101/color-assignprofiles.html
<dpm> <dpm> ah, it seems to be missing from the source tree, weird
<dpm>  seems like an ubuntu-docs bug to me
<jbicha> artnay: dpm: thanks, I just pushed rev. 127 to add that image
<dpm> excellent, thanks jbicha
<jbicha> the color-* screenshots we just take from GNOME without changes
<peppe84> About ubiquity migration-assistant: is documented? It seems there is nothing on community wiki.
#ubuntu-doc 2012-04-14
<trijntje> Hi all, I want to get a printer-friendly version of the Dutch ubuntu-docs for precise. I've been reading the wiki page but I get stuck with building the documentation, is this page outdated? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/BuildingDocumentation
<trijntje> in which directory should I run the 'make all' command?
<Amoz> Any plans for porting the new designs to the wiki?
<Amoz> give me a ping if there are
#ubuntu-doc 2012-04-15
<jbicha> Amoz: do you mean using a newer theme for help.ubuntu.com ?
<jbicha> If so, you can change your preferred theme to light at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/?action=userprefs&sub=prefs
<trijntje> Hi all, I'm trying to build the dutch version of ubuntu-docs, with the final goal of creating a printer friendly version. I'm trying to follow the guide here, but I don't have a folder named 'scripts' https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Translation
<trijntje> Is there some other guide I should be following?
<sagaci> https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu/precise/+source/ubuntu-docs/+pots/ubuntu-help/en_AU/1164/+translate -- not really a translation bug but the last part.. "... does not work as well with Linux", shouldn't it be "does not work as well with Ubuntu"?
#ubuntu-doc 2013-04-08
<pleia2> thanks jbicha, bkerensa and godbyk!
<shaunm> godbyk, jbicha: does check_validation.sh do something special? some reason you can't just use yelp-check?
<godbyk> shaunm: "./check_validation.sh blah.page" just runs "xmllint --noout --xinclude --relaxng ../../libs/mallard-1.0.rng blah.page"
<shaunm> ah, a local copy of the rng file
<godbyk> Looking at the yelp-check script, it appears to do roughly the same thing.
<shaunm> well, yelp-check relies on you having xml catalogs set up to use a local copy of the schema
<shaunm> but it does do schema merging, which is nice if you use a lot of mallard extensions
<godbyk> shaunm: Ah, cool. i just ran yelp-check validate and it appears to work, too.
<godbyk> yelp-check is a bit less verbose, too, which is nice.
#ubuntu-doc 2013-04-11
<bkerensa> jbicha:  another MP from another contributor... I provided some feedback on it... https://code.launchpad.net/~gunnarhj/ubuntu-docs/raring/+merge/158248
<dholbach> hiya
<dholbach> I just updated http://pad.ubuntu.com/communitywebsite-contribute-documentation and made it a bit friendlier
<dholbach> I'd appreciate feedback and/or fixes :)
#ubuntu-doc 2013-04-12
<GridCube> hi, i have a question regarding the wiki, I form part of the irc operators of the spanish ubuntu channels, on our offtopic channel we are recopilating games and other activities we would like to perform to increase the activity and the social life of our channels, for that matter we wanted to create a page on the wiki listing all the few games we would like our users to know we play, we though about creating a subpage under wiki.ubuntu.c
<GridCube> om/IRC/ubuntu-es-cafe, but we didnt wanted to proceed with this before knowing if this is a good idea or not, if not what do you think could be the best aproach to this?
#ubuntu-doc 2013-04-14
<godbyk> jbicha: Thanks for the ubuntu-docs instructions. I'll give it a test run now and see how it goes.
<godbyk> jbicha: For translations (.po files) that are new (have never existed before), should I add those to the repository or ignore/delete them?
<jbicha> godbyk: add them and also add them to ubuntu-help/Makefile.am
<jbicha> although a lot of the languages are virtually untranslated so it might not help much
<godbyk> jbicha: Okay, will do.
<godbyk> That's true.
<godbyk> jbicha: Any pointers or tips on building the .deb? I've been going through the Ubuntu packaging guide but I suspect there's a lot of 'first time .deb file' stuff there that I can ignore.
<jbicha> well there's a few different ways of doing it, I use sbuild and here's a draft of instructions that I wrote for the packaging guide: http://paste.ubuntu.com/5709067/
<godbyk> Okay, thanks. I'll give that a shot.
<godbyk> Should the .pot file from Launchpad be committed to the bzr repository along with the updated .po files?
<jbicha> no, the .pot in Launchpad comes from the .pot in the bzr tree
<godbyk> Okay. With the ubuntu-manual project, I ignore Launchpad's .pot, too, because it typically just rewraps the lines.
#ubuntu-doc 2014-04-07
<GunnarHj> Hi belkinsa!
<belkinsa> Hey there!  What's up?
<GunnarHj> belkinsa: Can't wait until next meeting. :)
<belkinsa> The monthly Doc Team one?
<GunnarHj> Yep
<belkinsa> Hopefully we will have one next month.  I need to get that doodle poll out.
<GunnarHj> Would be great.
<belkinsa> pleia2, can anyone chair a meeting for this team?
<pleia2> anyone can always chair a meeting :)
<belkinsa> GunnarHj, I will have it out by the end of tomorrow.
<belkinsa> pleia2, thank you.  I was just wondering.
<GunnarHj> belkinsa: Excellent. Thanks!
<GunnarHj> godbyk: ping?
<belkinsa> Though, GunnarHj, what days and times can you do?
<GunnarHj> belkinsa: I'm pretty flexible. Guess it needs to be late evening UTC to fit everyone reasonably well.
<belkinsa> Thanks x2.
<GunnarHj> belkinsa: Maybe we should try to establish a fix meeting time. Every X:th Y-day every month at ZZ h.
<belkinsa> That's what I been thinking all the time.
<belkinsa> And it will allow us to like the other teams.
<GunnarHj> Right.
<belkinsa> And it must be on a weekday, right?  (this is to pleia2 also)
<GunnarHj> belkinsa: But if you arrange with a first meeting, we could maybe decide on the fixed day then.
<belkinsa> That can work.
<pleia2> belkinsa: it can be whenever the team decides
<belkinsa> And figure out who are divers are.
<belkinsa> pleia2, ah, I see.  Thank you.
<pleia2> I tend to avoid saturdays only because that's my day off, but if folks like saturdays, they by all means
<pleia2> s/they/then
#ubuntu-doc 2014-04-08
<belkinsa> GunnarHj, would anything after 6 PM UTC to 11 PM UTC work for most?
<belkinsa> I guess that is to pleia2 also.  ^^^
<GunnarHj> belkinsa: Hard to tell. 6 PM UTC is the middle of the day in the US. Guess it depends on people's work and such.
<belkinsa> Right, I know.  It's like 2 PM EST to 7, I think.
<GunnarHj> Something like that.
<belkinsa> And that will be 11 AM to 3 PM PST, which is pleia2's tiemzone.
<GunnarHj> Right. OTOH the evening UTC is necessary so some of us won't need to sit in the meeting at 3 AM or something like that...
<belkinsa> OTOH?
<GunnarHj> on the other hand
<belkinsa> Ah.  Duh.
<belkinsa> But I think that shouldn't be an issue, if most are within that timezone range that I can guessed, which is PST to UTC + 2 or +3.
<GunnarHj> No, I think the time range you suggested is reasonable.
<belkinsa> Alright.
<belkinsa> Also, you think end of the week is better?
<GunnarHj> As long as it's not very late in Europe, I would guess that workdays are preferable. (But I may well be wrong.)
<GunnarHj> belkinsa: ^
<belkinsa> I figured that was for me and the fact that people prefer workdays but when is the question. Or it doesn't matter.
<GunnarHj> belkinsa: You won't find a day/time that is perfect of everyone anyway. If you are about to suggest a fixed scheme, pick something you think is reasonable and let's see what people say.
<belkinsa> Alright.
<GunnarHj> s/of/for/
<belkinsa> GunnarHj, http://doodle.com/8ag48wpq3xrs3bi9 Good?
<GunnarHj> belkinsa: That's 3 PM to 5 PM UTC. Shouldn't it be later on the day?
<belkinsa> Yeah, good point.  Bumping it up two hours.
<belkinsa> Now it's 5 PM UTC to 7 PM UTC
<belkinsa> Or should be 7 PM UTC to 11 PM UTC?
<belkinsa> Thinking back from what we had for the last two meetings.
<GunnarHj> belkinsa: Actually I think 7pm to 11pm is more likely to fit many of us.
<belkinsa> Alright
<belkinsa> http://doodle.com/8ag48wpq3xrs3bi9t2a9vgv3 Better?
<belkinsa> http://doodle.com/8ag48wpq3xrs3bi9*
<GunnarHj> belkinsa: No. But http://doodle.com/8ag48wpq3xrs3bi9 is ok now. ;)
<belkinsa> Sorry for giving the wrong link.  So, it's safe to post?
<GunnarHj> belkinsa: Think you should give it a try on the list.
<belkinsa> On it.
<GunnarHj> belkinsa: Now it's bedtime for me. Good night, belkinsa!
<belkinsa> Night, GunnarHj.  (time for me too)
<belkinsa> Thanks for the help.
<GunnarHj> You're welcome.
<belkinsa> Who has the power to change the topic here?
<knome> Signum, jdub, mdke, irc council, freenode staff
<belkinsa> Alright, thanks.  I was thinking about writing something about the Doodle poll for the next meeting in the topic.
<belkinsa> shaunm, did you follow me on Twitter?  In that case, I followed you back.
<shaunm> belkinsa: yes
#ubuntu-doc 2014-04-10
<jasabella> hi :) what's the difference between the documentation team and manual team?
#ubuntu-doc 2015-04-07
<dsmythies> doc team meeting over in #ubuntu-meeting-2 in two minutes.
<dsmythies> #startmeeting Ubuntu Docs
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Apr  7 17:30:05 2015 UTC.  The chair is dsmythies. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<dsmythies> #chair dsmythies GunnarHj
<meetingology> Current chairs: GunnarHj dsmythies
<dsmythies> Oppps wrong room...
<dsmythies> #endmetting
<dsmythies> #endmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Apr  7 17:31:01 2015 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-doc/2015/ubuntu-doc.2015-04-07-17.30.moin.txt
<imnichol> dsmythies, what room is it in?
<dsmythies> it is in commit_message_cover.txt
<dsmythies> opps...
<dsmythies> it is in #ubuntu-meeting-2
<dsmythies> For those that attnded the Doc team meeting: Thanks.
<dsmythies> GunnarHj: did you notcie new format on askubuntu.com? It is not as obvious to me now, just by glancing, when a question has no answer.
<GunnarHj> dsmythies: I'm still in another meeting. Can we talk in a few minutes?
<dsmythies> GunnarHj: I forgot you mentioned another meeting. It doesn't matter. I'll probably be off-line when you become free.
<GunnarHj> dsmythies: We are done soon. I didn't quite understand what you mean. "When a question has no answer"?
<pmatulis> the meeting time has been change in the wiki and the fridge calendar
<dsmythies> pmatulis: I am so dense. For me it will be 9:00 in summer and 8:00 in winter. Not 8:00 and 7:00, as I was saying in the meeting.
<pmatulis> dsmythies: alright, better!
<GunnarHj> dsmythies: Now I'm ready to talk about Ask Ubuntu, if you like.
<GunnarHj> dsmythies: To me it looks as if the second column states the number of answers, so 0 (zero) means that there is no answer yet.
<pmatulis> guys, who maintains the installation guide?
<dsmythies> pmatulis: Nobody maintains the installation guide. After much work, I had someone interested but they became overwhelmed and bailed. I've done some things, so that I could at least build it.
<dsmythies> GannarHj: askubuntu.com used to be obvious as to unanswered via colour, that changed. The columns are the same as before, as far as I recall.
<pmatulis> dsmythies: ok, we (the team) should try to improve the situation
<GunnarHj> dsmythies: Right, the colored circle when unanswered is gone. But the zero is still pretty obvious, isn't it?
<phillw> exit
<gsilva> Hello all. Can someone give me a help in regard to LP + Bazaar + Git + stuff related?
<knome> gsilva, ask your question and we'll see
<gsilva> Well, as TL of wiki & docs of Lubuntu, I am trying to (finally) create the Lubuntu manual. To do this effectively, I think it is best to use the "code" tab in Launchpad
<gsilva> However, I've never worked with these type of tools in my life and I'm not a power user
<knome> setting up a repository isn't hard, but you have to set up a lot more than that
<knome> eg. what markup are you using?
<knome> how do you expect to ship the documentation?
<gsilva> Exactly, I have no idea what you're talking about
<gsilva> lol
<knome> then maybe you should consider those questions before you start setting the tools up
<gsilva> Well, I want to keep things as simple as possible
<gsilva> I'm not a power user, so I have no idea what markups do I have available nor the possibilities to ship information
<knome> well the other question is non-technical...
<knome> do you want a package that is shipped with lubuntu, or will the documentation exist online? or both?
<gsilva> exist online
<knome> if it's a package, how do you want it to appear? readable by a web browser or something else?
<knome> then more non-technical level questions: is there a reason why you wouldn't use a wiki?
<knome> do you want to enforce the formatting, or can it be more free-formatted?
<knome> who would contribute to the documentation: anybody (including users) or only team members?
<gsilva> Because a manual looks way much prettier and decent.
<gsilva> Enforce formatting
<gsilva> Team members
<knome> practically there is no reason why a wiki couldn't look pretty and decent too, though..
<knome> anyway, looks like you want a markup language that can be converted to html with stylesheets
<gsilva> I see
<gsilva> thanks for helping
<gsilva> I'll try and see the best way
<knome> you might want to see how xubuntu does it, using docbook
<knome> we produce both a package (with files readable from a browser) and upload them online
<knome> https://launchpad.net/xubuntu-docs for the source project
<knome> http://docs.xubuntu.org/1410/ for what the output looks
<gsilva> thanks
<knome> np
#ubuntu-doc 2015-04-08
<phillw> gsilva: the couple of people I know on here are benonsoftware cprofitt eagles0513875_ pleia2 and pmatulis But, you should really introduce your self and what your plans are.
<gsilva> sure phillw, I'll ask around to see a possible method for me to implement
<phillw> pmatulis: there is a young manual doc person from lubuntu with the the nick gislva I ask that you and the others give this young man ever assistance.
<pmatulis> phillw: a manual doc person?
<phillw> pmatulis: yup for lubuntu manual, but has to work with ubuntu manual
<pmatulis> phillw: i didn't know there was a lubuntu manual.  i also thought the ubuntu manual was defunct.  anywhoo, i'll keep my eye out for gislva
<phillw> it was a bit of a bolt of the blue
<phillw> ubuntu manual is for each LTS
<phillw> but, gs wants to overhaul the lubuntu docs system, which is fine by me.
<pleia2> phillw: knome was helping them yesterday, did they need more?
<pleia2> (before you joined)
<pleia2> wb gsilva
<knome> i believe a lot more is needed, though i think it would need some team-internal research on what they want first
<pleia2> yeah, the links you gave them will be useful
<gsilva> hi, pleia2
<gsilva> thank you
<pleia2> if they really want a manual rather than documentation, they should ask the ubuntu manual folks though, they are in #ubuntu-manual and have a launchpad.net mailing list that's different from the doc team
<phillw> pleia2: knome I believe he has got his head around the basics of pulling in the manual
<knome> i have very little knowledge on the ubuntu manual
<gsilva> Yes, thank you though. I had to bash my head around what I could do
<knome> there are several ways to achieve a similar thing
<phillw> gsilva: ah, thanks for hanging on in.. .the people here will answer and help you.
<gsilva> so, I managed to learn the basics of Git, but apparently it's better for both - including Ubuntu - if I do that in Bazaar
<pleia2> gsilva: yeah, we use bzr
<gsilva> So... No worries :) I have a plan, although I'm not sure if that will work. Hopefully it will.
<gsilva> I'm just not sure how you guys are compiling the final file, but I have an idea
<knome> bzr/git are very similar
<gsilva> I never used tex before, so I'll have to learn another thing
<pleia2> bzr and git are pretty similar, they are both distributed RCSs
<pleia2> tex is only used by the ubuntu manual team, which again, is not us :)
<gsilva> right
<pleia2> xubuntu and the server guide uses docbook, ubuntu docs use mallard
<gsilva> No worries, I got my head around things. Hopefully I'll manage to do something
<phillw> pleia2: and knome thanks for your help, he's getting there
<gsilva> oh yes, of course I appreciate your help
#ubuntu-doc 2016-04-11
<dsmythies> Launchpad seems to be down. Anybody else observing the same?
<dsmythies> Oh, it seems to be O.K. again.
<pmatulis> morning
#ubuntu-doc 2016-04-13
<thomi> Hi pleia2, are you responsible for maintaining help.ubuntu.com? I'm seeing frequent HTTP 500 responses, as well as occaisonal very long load times for certain pages. I'm wondering if this is a known issue?
<pleia2> thomi: Canonical IS over in #canonical-sysadmin handles the actual hosting of these servers, and yes, it's been a known issue for some time
<thomi> pleia2: are IS responsible for the code maintenance, or just the hosting?
<pleia2> unfortunately the moinmoin wiki software doesn't seem to haev been built for the scale we're using it at
<thomi> ahhh, ok
<pleia2> thomi: code maintenance?
<thomi> well... "fixing the bugs" :D
<pleia2> all we do here in ubuntu-doc is work on the actual documentation :) Canonical IS manages the software and servers
<thomi> ahh, ok - thanks
<pleia2> and I have a meeting to run off to now, bbl
<thomi> I'll head back to IS who sent me here in the first place :D
<thomi> thanks for your help!
