#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-09-06
<persia> There was some talk in -release about cleaning up cdimage.ubuntu.com.  I notice that Ubuntu Studio didn't participate in 8.04.2 or 8.04.3 point releases (we did participate in 8.04.1).  If anyone is still running hardy, it might be interesting to work with the testing team come December/January for 8.04.4 (although there's lots of reasons why newer releases are better).
<astraljava> persia: I should have environment ready by December, so that I can still run Hardy for testing purposes.
<persia> astraljava, OK.  You might want to follow up with the #ubuntu-testing folks come November or so, and find out what needs doing, etc.  I'd also suggest confirming with ScottL, just because if we release an 8.04.4, that implies that we also support it.
<astraljava> persia: I understand. Okay, I'll join the #, and chat with ScottL to see whether support is provided or not. In theory, I at least could provide it, but I'm not willing to do it alone, as I fear I might not be able to solo it.
<persia> Heh, indeed.  That's why it's something to discuss, rather than just a "hey, someone test next time" :)
<astraljava> Gotcha. :)
<quadrispro> persia, I'd like to re-open a discussion with the upstream of linuxsampler
<quadrispro> about the license, obviously
<quadrispro> WDYT?
<persia> quadrispro, If you like.  I'll wish you luck.
<persia> I don't expect the upstream position has or will change.
<persia> But I could be needlessly pessimistic about it.
<quadrispro> I don't expect it too, but I would like to have an attempt
<quadrispro> me too :/
<persia> Makes sense.  It's been a while since it last came up.
<persia> http://www.linuxsampler.org/downloads.html still has the same text
<quadrispro> persia, please help me to re-summarize some good points. First, it doesn't conflict with DFSG only, it breaks GPL
<quadrispro> am I right?
<persia> I believe so.  Check the ML archives: there's lots of good arguments from the past.
<quadrispro> well
<quadrispro> I will
<quadrispro> hope to see a bit of collaboration
<quadrispro> from upstream
<persia> quadrispro, You ma also want to explore packaging JSampler and/or jlscp : same upstream, but sane licensing (and don't seem to be in the archives)
<quadrispro> ohh, java...
<quadrispro> jlscp
<persia> glancing at GPL again, I'd think section 1 was the first awkward bit (discussing charging, and warrants), but I'm not an expert about that clause (it's generally the one I pay the least attention).
<persia> But it's a clear violation of DFSG#6
<quadrispro> " You are NOT ALLOWED to use LinuxSampler source code, libraries or applications in COMMERCIAL hardware or software products without prior written authorization by the authors. [...]"
<quadrispro> really, I don't understand the reasons... :/
<quadrispro> persia, BTW, I don't have much experience in packaging java stuff, if have time to work on jlscp,jsampler I would give my contribution and upload them to NEW, when ready
<quadrispro> if you have time *
<persia> I don't remember the specifics, but a couple example reasons I can imagine someone might have would be 1) don't want others to profit from their work without sharing revenues, 2) have used some data only available for non-commercial or research purposes in creating the code, and fear the owner of that data if the code is later used in ways not compatible with the data disclosure agreement, 3) work for an organisation that only allows one 
<persia> to release open code for non-commercial purposes, etc.
<persia> I don't, nor much interest, really.  From what I understand JSampler/jlscp is just another front-end (like qsampler) to the unfree linuxsampler.
<quadrispro> 1) 2) 3) I got it, then... easy: if one wants to prevent that, GPL is not for him
<persia> That's my thought.  But there's not a lot of good examples of non-commercial licenses.
<persia> I suspect that comes because not so many people want to fund lawyers to inspect and create good ones :)
<quadrispro> eheh, it is so :)
<persia> Looks like the last messy discussion about it was in early 2008.  Given http://lists.linuxaudio.org/pipermail/linux-audio-dev/2008-January/020531.html , I have the impression that there's some strong (although not clearly disclosed) reasons for the restriction.
 * persia tries to get back to the regularly scheduled ignoring of linuxsampler :)
<quadrispro> oh, having a look
<persia> heh: I fail.  So, the trick is that one sells a 1U short-rack audio box, with a program that will automate the download, recompilation, and installation of linuxsampler post-registration :)
<persia> One isn't actually selling linuxsampler :)  That said, if it's that easy to get around, there may be some weird reason it's licensed the way it is.
<quadrispro> i see
<quadrispro> persia, do you have requests for some LV2 plugins that aren't already available in Maverick?
<persia> I don't think we can add anything else to Maverick at this point.
<persia> But I haven't done a scan of software-that-ought-be-packaged in a good long while.  Maybe someone else has a list?
<quadrispro> yep, there is a list
<quadrispro> no, at this point we can't add anything new
<quadrispro> but I can update my TODO list and work on them for Debian
<quadrispro> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/TaskLV2Inclusion
<ScottL> astraljava, persia: re: 8.04.04 testing - i'd rather not test for it and then have to support it because 10.04 is far superior in my opinion, that's not a hard position, but just a general leaning
<ScottL> persia, quadrispro:  i am thinking of asking rexbron (andrew hunter) to get linuxsampler in his PPA
<astraljava> ScottL: Fine by me, I have no big desire for it anyway, was just offering some HDD space for it. :D
<ScottL> i had a different opinion before karmic and lucid though :P  i thought hardy was ace
<ScottL> seeing how much structural differences and improvements since hardy is amazing and encouraging 
<quadrispro> ScottL, the packaging is almost ready to go -> http://git.debian.org/?p=pkg-multimedia/linuxsampler.git
 * quadrispro away for a bit
<persia> ScottL, Given the license for linuxsampler, I'd strongly recommend thinking twice before asking anyone else to distribute it.  If you're comfortable, that's fine, but ...
<persia> ScottL, Also, re: 10.04, we didn't participate in 10.04.1: so we'd probably want to get on the ball if we're to do 10.04.2 (same reasoning as 8.04.4)
<ScottL> persia, doh, i already sent a mail to rexbron's mail on the -dev list but at least i did mention there were licensing issues :/
<persia> Well, that might work.  If he doesn't feel comfortable distributing, maybe he'll reply that the licensing issues were too many.
<ScottL> if anyone is testing maverick can they see if lv2rack or zynjacku will work ?
#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-09-07
<astraljava> ScottL: I can probably test tonight and see whether maverick finally installs on my env or not.
<ScottL> astraljava, i think i found the problem (but please test it as well)
<ScottL> it seems that our version of zynjacku/lv2rack (they come from the same source) expects lashd to be isntalled
<astraljava> ScottL: Ahh... okay. But yeah, I'll check it out.
<astraljava> ScottL: Err... wait, not tonight, but tomorrow. I'll be home today at around 9 pm.
<persia> That might be a missing dependency: if the app doesn't work without lashd, we ought force lashd to be installed simultaneously when people install the app.
<quadrispro> ScottL, http://debomatic64.debian.net/unstable/pool/swh-lv2_1.0.15+20091215.git2358739-1/
<ScottL> quadrispro, awesome! but i forget, does ubuntu sync from testing or unstable?
<ScottL> if ubuntu syncs from testing, how soon before swh-lv2 hits testing?
<ScottL> LP: #613145
<ScottL> bug 613145
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 613145 in zynjacku (Ubuntu) "zynjacku crashed with TypeError in main()" [Wishlist,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/613145
<ScottL> quadrispro, even if you fix this bug, persia and i had talked about including lash in natty
<quadrispro> well
<quadrispro> working on swh-lv2 packaging, there are a number of things to fix
<ScottL> oh :(
<quadrispro> s/are/is/ ? :/ oh, my bad english
<quadrispro> persia knows how bad is my english :(
<ScottL> are was correct for a plural noun (there)
<ScottL> especially with "things" in the predicate of the sentence
<quadrispro> ther is a number
<quadrispro> there *
<quadrispro> mmmh
<ScottL> correct
<ScottL> :)
<quadrispro> yep :)
<quadrispro> yuppie
<ScottL> lol
<ScottL> i just want to point out again, quadrispro, your help is astounding and studio is really seeing great benefits from it :)
<quadrispro> thanks :
<quadrispro> )
<quadrispro> I'm happy of that
<quadrispro> see you later!
<persia> ScottL, Just for confirmation, fixing the bug in the way that the package depends on lash automatically includes lash in the images.  Doesn't address the overall using-lash-to-make-life-easy thing (that's natty)
<scott-work> detrate`: i'm still exploring avenues for getting the website done in drupal but i have to admit that i'm running out of options
<scott-work> detrate`: if things continue the way they are it would seem we would need to explore word press (or other cms) and find replacement hosting
<scott-work> detrate`: would you still be interested in helping with the website ?
<ryanpg> hi, I was just over on #ubuntustudio but perhaps this is a better channel
<ryanpg> I'm getting anxious about the state of jackd in 10.10, several major applications have conflicting requirements for jackd and jackd2
<ryanpg> with 10.10 being released in one month, it doesn't seem likely there will be a functional jackd "environment" available. Am I understanding the situation correctly?
<scott-work> ryanpg: i don't think so, i've downloaded and installed the beta version and jack works for me :)
<scott-work> but i'm just using it to record guitar, bass, and vocals from my delta44 and get drums from hydrogen all into ardour
<scott-work> ryanpg: can you give some specific examples of major applications having conflicting requirements for jackd and jack2
<ryanpg> hi scott-work one example: ardour and supercollider
<scott-work> ryanpg: hmmm, ardour worked for me in the beta version, but i don't use supercollider
<scott-work> ryanpg: have you tried the beta version to see how it works?
<ryanpg> scott-work, ok - it may be just a few cases then - yes, I'm running beta
<scott-work> ryanpg:  so is supercollider not working properly with jack for you?
<ryanpg> scott-work, it cannot be installed due to conflicting requirements
<holstein> ryanpg: do you still have list?
<holstein> from synaptic or whatever
<scott-work> hmmm, many packages needed to be rebuilt against the new jack and have been, this may have been one that was overlooked
<holstein> scott-work: i bet
<scott-work> hi holstein , i said we would probably talk this morning :)
<holstein> its not in be default right?
<holstein> that would make sense
<scott-work> correct, i just checked
<holstein> scott-work: :)
<scott-work> holstein:  following our conversation last night, when you are thinking about packages, try to think in terms of "workflows"
<holstein> yeah, i was reading that over the OSMP
<holstein> i like that idea quite a bit
<scott-work> the idea would be to identify specific workflows, include the apps, and docuement
<scott-work> oh, okay :)
<scott-work> not my idea, it was persia's, but it's brilliant i think
 * ryanpg removes some ppa repo's and backs out some changes
<holstein> i think we can come up with several quite different ones from the pool of OSMP users
<holstein> if you just take [lsd] and I
<holstein> we have totally different needs
<holstein> and the podcasters too
<holstein> great idea persia 
<holstein> scott-work: i had a section on the WIKI about that
<holstein> i'll try and make some noise about it
<scott-work> holstein: the osm wiki ? or ubuntu wiki?
<holstein> and get some contributors there
<holstein> the OSM one
<holstein> even if they dont run ubuntustudio
<holstein> the workflow could still be useful
<scott-work> i had thought about podcasters as well, even streaming live audio like we were talkging about
<scott-work> holstein: oh, i asked the guy about internet at the party, he said they could accomodate that so i'll try to stream audio :)
<holstein> w00t :)
<ryanpg> ok, I think I discovered what's going on - supercollider is apparently not included in 10.10 ? I must have added a ppa with a version that requires an earlier version of jackd
<holstein> ryanpg: its good to catch that though
<ryanpg> holstein, thanks - but it's muuuuch better that I was wrong about the state of affairs with jackd!
<ryanpg> :)
<holstein> scott-work: thats probably one for the list
<scott-work> oh, yeah...i had checked to see if it was in ubuntu studio by default, i just now checked and it's not in the official archives at all!
<holstein> to think about
<holstein> supercollider
<scott-work> holstein: i think there are some licensing issues, i seem to remember persia and maybe quadrispro talking about upstream
<holstein> AH
<holstein> scott-work: when are the meetings here?
<scott-work> i could be misremembering this though, i'll look at debian
<holstein> i wouldnt mind to get a list of those packages together
<holstein> the ones with questionalbe legal states
<holstein> and put that up on a wiki somewhere
<holstein> so that can be referenced if that comes up
<scott-work> yeah, supercollider is not in debian either, most likely licensing then
<ryanpg> perhaps I'm mis-remembering, but I thought supercollider was included previously - wonder what changed
<scott-work> that's a good idea holstein, along with a reason why the package is not included with links to email or whatnot
<holstein> OH
<holstein> even better
<scott-work> ryanpg: according to ubuntu packages, it was in dapper only   http://packages.ubuntu.com/search?searchon=names&keywords=supercollider
<ryanpg> yeah, just checking that now
<ryanpg> wow, that was quite some time ago
<scott-work> holstein: troy_s had also suggested also suggested a wiki page with the rationale for why apps are *included* in studio as well
<scott-work> good example is network-admin vs network-manager
<holstein> scott-work: thats the kind of thing i can help with right now
<holstein> im working on my wiki-foo
<holstein> akgraner is schooling me :)
<scott-work> lol, i looked at the supercollider package in launchpad, last build was 234 weeks ago :)
<scott-work> cool holstein 
<ryanpg> apparently there's not much need for supercollider on ubuntu :)
<scott-work> ryanpg: you might send an email to the owner of the ppa with supercollider about rebuilding it against the new jack
<ryanpg> scott-work, good idea
<scott-work> ryanpg: i found this one also, don't know if you are using it or another or even if this one has been rebuilt   https://launchpad.net/~supercollider/+archive/ppa
<ryanpg> yes, that's the ppa I used - it has not been rebuilt
 * holstein wonders if falktx has it
<ryanpg> oh, I know ÐÑÑÑÐ¼ ÐÐ¾Ð¿Ð¾Ð² :)
<holstein> https://launchpad.net/~falk-t-j/+archive/lucid
<ryanpg> artfwo
<holstein> nah
<holstein> i dont see it in falks PPA
<ryanpg> I think artfwo is the guy to go to for supercollider
<holstein> cool
<holstein> falktx is the kind of guy who would fix it to include it in KXstudio
<holstein> and put it in that PPA
<ryanpg> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtemPopov
<holstein> BB
<ryanpg> ok, I contacted artfwo
<ryanpg> his packages are being used by puredyne btw
<holstein> AH
<ryanpg> he has submitted supercollider to revo for ubuntu
<scott-work> holstein: we haven't really had meeting in a while because not enough people were attending, and those that did attend often didn't work on what they said they would
<holstein> ryanpg: thanks
<ryanpg> there are problems with the way libraries are named - which is why supercollider is not inlcuded
<ryanpg> holstein, welcome
<holstein> scott-work: maybe we can talk about that too
<ryanpg> I have a working PPA now with rebuilt supercollider
<scott-work> http://revu.ubuntuwire.com/p/supercollider
<holstein> we've had the same thing going on with out LOCO
<holstein> our LOCO*
<ryanpg> also, he tells me that the new cmake build system should fix the issues with supercollider
<holstein> we went to monthly meetings instead of bi-monthly
<holstein> we'll see
<ryanpg> ppa:artfwo/ppa btw
<ryanpg> apparently artfwo was a big part of the "revolution" to jackd2
<scott-work> is artfwo nedko  ?
<scott-work> that's confusing
<ryanpg> I don't think so
<scott-work> i know someone named nedko who has worked on jack2, is he the same person as artfwo?
<scott-work> lol you already answered my confusing question
<ryanpg> https://launchpad.net/~artfwo I also know nedko - but yea different
<scott-work> holstein: will you be around in an hour?  i'd like to talk some more but i really need to get some work done at work ;)
<holstein> i should be
<ryanpg> way OT - but what's the deal with all the .save files in /etc/apt/ in 10.10
<ryanpg> bbl, restarting X
 * abogani waves
<holstein> abogani: :)
<abogani> holstein, Hi Mike.
<scott-work> hi abogani , are you doing okay today?
<abogani> scott-work, Well thanks.
<scott-work> JFo:  are we still planning on talking about kernels today?
<jussi> scott-work: We dont normally recommend debian packages to users of ubuntu, as they can break stuff. Ive no idea how the one you mentioned is, but its bad practice in any case.
<JFo> scott-work, sorry about that, was in a meeting
<JFo> we can chat if you like :)
 * holstein thought it was just mentioning where the work was happening on guitarix
<scott-work> jussi: i shall refrain from doing that in the future then, thank you for making me aware of the potential problem :)
<jussi> scott-work: no probs, always glad to help if I can. :)
<scott-work> JFo: oh, no problem for me, i've been quite busy with the usual "monday morning" events even though it's tuesday :)
<JFo> heh, same here
<JFo> had 2 meetings that weren't on my calendar before that last one
<JFo> ,-death by meeting
<scott-work> JFo: did you want to discuss this with some of the other kernel members? 
<scott-work> lol, yeah, i get the "we have a problem we need to solve right NOW" meetings as well :)
<scott-work> argh, i had wanted to start working on team reports already for ubuntu studio and keep putting it off :P
<JFo> scott-work, we can if you like, but I have been given some guidance on the subject of -rt, -preempt or -lowlatency kernels
<scott-work> JFo: sweet :)
<scott-work> i'm good just talking to you
<JFo> want to talk here about it or in a private wondow?
<JFo> window rather
<scott-work> whichever you feel is appropriate :)
<scott-work> holstein: would you like to continue some of our previous converstaion about meetings and wiki pages?
<holstein> sure
<scott-work> you were mentioning your loco meetings and i thought there might be a tangent you wanted to explore in relation to ubuntu studio :)
<holstein> i just think it might be a good idea to log the progess
<holstein> we've just been plugging through them
<holstein> meetings
<holstein> and it shows that something is going on
<holstein> and folks do go and check the logs 
<holstein> more than i though would at least
<holstein> scott-work: maybe we could just schedule one?
<holstein> a meeting
<holstein> and i could get a little louder about it over in OSM's
<holstein> get those ubuntu folk here maybe
<holstein> scott-work: but i know your busy too
<scott-work> holstein: oh, i could certainly make time for a meeting :)
<holstein> what was the normal thing?
<holstein> monthly?
<holstein> then we could talk about wiki's and what not then
<holstein> maybe establish a line of communication with myself and the list
<holstein> and i can figure out where to put some of that information we talked about
<scott-work> holstein: yes, it tended to be monthly as best as we could ;)
<scott-work> holstein: the other thing we were discussing was the wiki pages, if you want to start a wiki page that'd be oustanding, i'll add what i can as well :)
<holstein> scott-work: mabye i can just find one that already existing and update
<holstein> or add to it
<holstein> but, im totally on board for that
<scott-work> it's kind of surprising that an email about gnome-network-admin being fixed didn't receive any replies :/
<scott-work> i would have thought many people would be estatic about it
<abogani> scott-work, I never received an reply on my emails about -rt in three years. So I suspect that this is the "normal" behavior. :-)
 * persia doesn't know of any licensing issues with supercollider
<persia> Ah: found it.  There used to be lots of issues (see http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=454257 ), which I believe upstream has mostly fixed, but nobody has done the work to get it back in the repositories.
<ubottu> Debian bug 454257 in ftp.debian.org "RM: supercollider -- RoQA; RC-buggy, few users" [Normal,Open]
<holstein> persia: good news
#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-09-08
<rexbron> hey everyone
<ScottL> doh, that's the second time i missed rexbron before he left again
<persia> MemoServ was designed to address that specific concern :)
<astraljava> ScottL: I'm not e[c]static over g-n-a being fixed, as I can't use it myself. :) 3G connection requires NM. :)
<astraljava> ScottL: But yeah, I haven't had time to put into US this cycle muchly, what with the house, the puppy, now univ. studies and work overtime. I would expect things to get better for the next one.
<astraljava> ScottL: Might even get DSL for that, w00t! :)
<quadrispro> ScottL, swh-lv2 seems working fine
<quadrispro> ScottL, I'm about to upload it to Debian NEW
<persia> Woohoo!
 * abogani waves
<quadrispro> ciao abogani 
<astraljava> Hiya guys. :)
<abogani> quadrispro: Ciao!
<scott-work> good morning everyone :)
<scott-work> astraljava: thanks for the email to the list :)
<scott-work> perhaps i should have been much more succinct and explained that networking should work out of the box
<scott-work> i tend to try to explain too much
<scott-work> getting swh-lv2 packages is awesome :)
<scott-work> will there be any reason to ship swh-plugins (ladspa) with studio if we have swh-lv2 ?
<astraljava> scott-work: By out of the box, do you mean also 3G connections?
<scott-work> astraljava: actually, probably not for 3g
<scott-work> but previously, unless you were connecting the computer directly to a router (with dhcp) via a network cable then you probably didn't have network since you couldn't configure your connection
<scott-work> at least now those with wireless (i.e. a lot of users with laptops) should be able to configure their settings to connect :)
<scott-work> holstein: when would a meeting work for you?
<scott-work> holstein: and i remember us talking about making a wiki page for apps that are not included in studio, was there another one we were discussing as well ?
<falktx> hey guys
<holstein> falktx: hey
<falktx> i already spoke about this some time ago
<holstein> scott-work: should it be evening?
<falktx> I'm about to make an ubuntustudio live dvd, for testing
<holstein> falktx: nice
<falktx> should it be lucid or maverick?
<holstein> im going to get some help from a friend on chroot
<holstein> i say lucid
<scott-work> maverick has a gnome-network-admin that works though :)
<scott-work> and maverick has jack2
<holstein> true
 * holstein changes mind
<falktx> yep, I think maverick is the one that needs testing
<scott-work> holstein: i don't expect too many people in the meeting, if you intend to attend the meeting then i say we work around your schedule ;)
<falktx> guys on the forums are asking about a maverick PPA
<scott-work> i'll make it at almost any time
<scott-work> falktx: for which applications ?
<falktx> would you guys consider a team PPA?
<falktx> scott-work: mostly US ones
<scott-work> falktx: for applications that are already in studio ?  i'm not sure i'm understanding the purpose of the ppa then
<falktx> scott-work: for updates
<falktx> scott-work: oh, of course, for apps not in the official repos too
<holstein> scott-work: wednesdays are usually good
<astraljava> scott-work: Looks like I won't be able to test today; this 3G is just too unreliable and slow...
<holstein> scott-work: not the next few though
<holstein> astraljava: :/
<scott-work> falktx:  i think that is an idea we should explore
<scott-work> holstein: you want to try in about three weeks ?
<scott-work> astraljava: that's okay, sorry you are having problems though
<falktx> scott-work: my biggest problem is that I dont have easy acess to the internet (no net at home)
<falktx> scott-work: I wont be able to maintain a maverick PPA
<falktx> scott-work: even for my lucid one, it's a very big task already...
<falktx> so I suggest a team PPA
<falktx> users will appreciatte it
<scott-work> falktx: i agree, users will agree with a unified ppa for studio applications
<scott-work> arghh, 2nd "agree" should be "appreciate"
<astraljava> +1
<falktx> scott-work: we should talk to AutoStatic too
<scott-work> and possible philip5 as well
<scott-work> i have a concern about trying to indicate that this is an "official" ubuntu studio ppa however if we are including applications that are not in the archives due to licensing issues
<scott-work> i would also like to push updates back into debian so that they get into the archives as well
<falktx> scott-work: there should be no licensing issues on the PPA, launchpad/canonical does not allow that
<falktx> scott-work: btw, I have an external non-free repository...
<falktx> (top secret!)
<scott-work> falktx: lol, this channel logged by the way ;)
<falktx> scott-work: it's ok
<falktx> scott-work: the devs game me permission to put them on kxstudio
<falktx> scott-work: and that means put them online on a repo...
<falktx> hehehe
<scott-work> i feel very strongly about providing a ubuntu studio ppa , even for an official repo, if nothing else as for updates/backports
 * holstein got busy for a minute
<holstein> scott-work: you want to go for the 29th?
<scott-work> phone call, be right back
<falktx> have to go, bye guys!
<holstein> falktx: laterx
<falktx> oh, and holstein, I have a deb in my PPA with mumble+jack output
<falktx> holstein: there's a patch in debian/patches
<scott-work> back, trying to refinance our house
<scott-work> rate is going from 5.96% to 4.625% :)
<scott-work> holstein: 29th sounds great
<scott-work> hmm falktx is gone already
<holstein> w00t
<holstein> yeah, we got 4.6 something fixed on ours
<holstein> we were stoked
<scott-work> i was going to tell falktx that nothing is stopping him, phillip5, autostatic and anyone else from making a an unofficial ubuntu studio team ppa
<scott-work> they can all work together and even include things that are not in the archives
<holstein> that would be handy
<scott-work> holstein: yeah, hoping to save $100-200 a month on mortgage, that would be pretty sweet over 30 years :P
<holstein> totally :)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-09-09
 * persia doesn't understand all the fuss about making special PPAs: we have an archive for a reason: we should use it if we have "official" stuff.
<ScottL> it's because it's immediate, you can update or backport almost immediately, but mainly i expect because applications can be hosted that can't be put into the official archives
<ScottL> crimsun_, TheMuso:  can either one of you give a quick explanation which direction you think audio permissions might be headed in future releases ?
<ScottL> the catalyst for this question comes from this mail:  https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-studio-devel/2010-September/002549.html
<TheMuso> ScottL: Getting as much to use consolekit/rtkit as possible.
 * persia has concerns about the legality of distributing anything that can't be put into the official archives.
<persia> For the immediacy, at least I wouldn't want to support anything that didn't have at least some control on updates: the processes in Ubuntu are designed to avoid support pain, not make it hard to support.
<quadrispro> hi all
<quadrispro> persia, no response from martin
<quadrispro> I've tried to ping him yesterday, maybe he was busy
<persia> I think he has sporadic access.  Maybe email?
<quadrispro> right
<quadrispro> damn, launchpad has gone down
<persia> For about 3 hours
<quadrispro> ah! didn't know that, ok
<quadrispro> I've uploaded a fixed version of jackbeat
<quadrispro> it failed to build on {amd64,i386}
<persia> Ouch!
<quadrispro> persia, have you read my email about simple-scan in u-devel-discuss?
 * persia does so now
<quadrispro> I know, I've sent it to the wrong ML...
<persia> Why the wrong ML?
<persia> Oh, yeah.  That belonged on ubuntu-devel@  robert_ancell should not have done that.
<quadrispro> maybe u-devel was the right ML
<persia> And he just dropped off IRC 10 minutes back, so hard to twit about it right now.
<persia> But yeah, continue with your merge: overwrite his work.
<persia> He deserves no credit for that.
<quadrispro> yes, but I'd like to get a bit of collaboration from that kind of upstream...
<persia> he's often about, and spends a lot of time in #ubuntu-devel and #ubuntu-desktop.
<persia> catch him for a chat.
<quadrispro> I will try (one more time)
<persia> I wish you the best of luck.  Let me know how it goes either way.
<persia> My timezone matches his better, so maybe I can help if things aren't going smoothly.
<quadrispro> of course I will
<falktx> abogani: i want to talk to you
<falktx> abogani: about how realtime/lowlatency can affect a laptop's battery
<falktx> abogani: ping me some other day, ok?
#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-09-10
<ScottL> oh, troy_s, making some progress thinking about ubuntu studio, target audience, and delivery
<troy_s> ScottL: Well that's optimistic.
<ScottL> troy_s, staying with ISO's for the moment and I do have a good reason
<ScottL> but i'm too tired to go into it right now
<ScottL> troy_s, right now my "fun" is trying to get someone to help work on the website
<ScottL> troy_s, some people seem to think that giving each other titles and setting up forums is "helping" *sigh*
<troy_s> ScottL: It sure does doesn't it?
<troy_s> ScottL: Seems to me not having a damn project is likely the bigger problem.
<ScottL> troy_s, eh, i think we have a project, natty will see some significant changes, direction included
<ScottL> troy_s, but i'm tired, work has been hard today, and i'm going to bed
<troy_s> Aight. Chat soon.
<ScottL> troy_s, i'll find you again soon, we'll talk more
<quadrispro> hi all
<astraljava> o/
#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-09-12
<ScottL> troy_s, i've got to load my guitar, amp, etc back into the house, but we can follow up from our last conversation after that
<holstein> ScottL: what about the site talk ?
<ScottL> were we suppossed to have a site talk?  the web site?
<ScottL> holstein, ^^^
<holstein> ScottL: i crashed
<holstein> and i gotta run to a session here in a minute
<holstein> nah, we did'nt have anything planned
<holstein> i was just wanting to discuss it :)
<ScottL> holstein, sure, we can discuss it whenever you get back :)
<ScottL> holstein, if you still want to talk about the webs site stuff, i'm good :)
<holstein> ScottL: i dont have much
<holstein> i was just wondering if we could do something to 'cool off' the email list discussion
<ScottL> it's good, whatever ya got :)
<holstein> seems to be getting a little personal in there ;)
<holstein> maybe not
<ScottL> well, cory and i were talking about giving a little more framework for people to work within
<holstein> ScottL: cool
<holstein> that might do
<ScottL> tell me straight, am i part of the "getting personal" ?
<holstein> it
<holstein> sounds like a good idea
<holstein> ScottL: i'd have to look again
<holstein> but i dont think so
<ScottL> that's okay, if you didn't recall at first, then probably not
<holstein> seemed quite over the top by the time you chimed in
<ScottL> i try not to be, even though sometimes i feel like it ;)
<holstein> and it seemed like you were trying to bring it back together
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-09-05
<ScottL> oh hi, TheMuso i missed your reply
<ScottL> astraljava, but shnatsel was saying that recommends will be required for ubiquity for the live dvd
<ScottL> so how will the packages behave if we change?
<TheMuso> ScottL: Re the recommends/depends stuff its rather subjective as to how people think it should behave when you remove packages,.
<ScottL> will they install install the same and the ISO's build the same?
<TheMuso> ScottL: Re live install only copies files, and removes installer related packages afterwards.
<ScottL> i suppose i am less of a purist on package behavior and more about can we accomplish our goals and not confuse users
<ScottL> i think the current situation confuses users with removing of meta packages and fearing it will remove all the applications in the meta
<ScottL> astraljava, can you explain your comment about -desktop fulfilling after removal?
<ScottL> perhaps i don't have a good understanding of the difference between depends and recommends
<TheMuso> ScottL: Depends means that a package directly depends on another package in order to function. Recommends means that the package is not directly required, but is a nice addition to the package being installed.
<TheMuso> In the case of metapackages, depends means that if you remove the metapackage or one of its direct dependnecies, the metapackage is removed. If a package is recommended, the recommended package is installed, but can be removed later without removing the metapackage.
<TheMuso> scott-upstairs: Not sure if you got my recent posts to the channel.
<scott-upstairs> TheMuso, i'll run back down and look quick like
<TheMuso> heh ok
<ScottL> <TheMuso> ScottL: Depends means that a package directly depends on another package in order to function. Recommends means that the package is not directly required, but is a nice addition to the package being installed.
<ScottL> <TheMuso> In the case of metapackages, depends means that if you remove the metapackage or one of its direct dependnecies, the metapackage is removed. If a package is recommended, the recommended package is installed, but can be removed later without removing the metapackage.
<scott-upstairs> i'm slow sometimes
<scott-upstairs> a meta package really is a container that "depends" on other packages, a nice way to bunch things together....like a task perhaps
<TheMuso> Yep
<scott-upstairs> take ubuntustudio-audio (old meta)....
<scott-upstairs> if i remove ardour, what happens?
<scott-upstairs> it removed the meta, right?
<scott-upstairs> but it leaves the other "depends"? (e.g. jack, hydrogen et al)
<scott-upstairs> using CLI i tried to remove ardour and it only wanted to remove ardour, not the meta nor any other packages
<TheMuso> Right.
<TheMuso> In the seed files, a package is recommends if it has brackets around it.
 * scott-upstairs is looking up a few things in synaptic for the -generation (new meta) package
<scott-upstairs> oh, i thought that the brackets meant it was included but not installed
<TheMuso> No.
<TheMuso> To include but not install is to include in the ship seed file.
<scott-upstairs> right, okay
<scott-upstairs> pigdin is in the ship file i believe
<scott-upstairs> along some other packages
<scott-upstairs> synaptic shows that the -generation meta does depend on ardour
<scott-upstairs> how would the behavior just described be different if we switched to "recommends" instead of "depends"
<scott-upstairs> ?
<scott-upstairs> oh, i just realized also that i don't currently have the -generation meta installed :/
<scott-upstairs> i might have run 'apt-get autoremove' before to purge some kernel packages
<scott-upstairs> so when i tried to remove ardour it might have tried to pull the -generation meta if it was installed
<scott-upstairs> and perhaps this is a preferred behavior, that when one part of the meta is removed that it would be preferred that the meta itself is removed, i suppose since it is "incomplete"?
<scott-upstairs> TheMuso, ^^^
<scott-upstairs> which ties in with your comment about the live install removing the installing files (i.e. meta's)
<TheMuso> scott-upstairs: So if we change to recommends, the following would happen. The meta will get installed, pulling in the recommended packages, as installing recommends is enabled by default. If a user wants to remove one or more of those packages, they can do so, and the entire meta will not be removed.
<scott-upstairs> or maybe not, because i think i can obviously remove the meta currently (even with "depends") without pulling the packages in the meta
<scott-upstairs> TheMuso, and the leaving of the meta package when one or more packages is removed is considered undesirable or inelegant ?
<TheMuso> No I don't think it is.
<scott-upstairs> sorry was helping son with wii star wars
<scott-upstairs> okay i think i am beginning to understand some of this
<scott-upstairs> which i think i can understand astraljava 's comments better about it being about the experience...why have the -desktop meta installed if one package is removed?  you are not experiencing the intended result of the -desktop meta
<scott-upstairs> although i think the user experience will remain the same with the exception of the meta package being removed, no?
<scott-upstairs> OTOH, while it may confuse the user that the meta is being removed (and fearing that ALL the packages are removed), the user may equally be confused when the meta is still installed by isn't seeing expected behavior because he/she removed a package
<scott-upstairs> s/by/but
<scott-upstairs> i think i will need some time to think about this more and consider it against moving to a live medium
<TheMuso> ok
<TheMuso> Does UI freeze include universe non-seeded packages?Just noticed that ubuntustudio ships pavucontrol...
<TheMuso> ah crap
<TheMuso> Just noticed that ubuntustudio ships pavucontrol...
<TheMuso> Was starting to write a question for another channel but forgot to remove it.
<scott-upstairs> TheMuso, yes i believe we currently do, but we did remove one recently i believe also
<scott-upstairs> TheMuso, is shipping pavucontrol problematic?
<TheMuso> No
<TheMuso> I am just surprised that studio ships it.
<micahg> TheMuso: xubuntu considered shipping it, but I think audio started working again
<TheMuso> heh right.
<TheMuso> Xubuntu doesn't ship pulse afaik.
<ScottL> since we use pulse still by default we decided to keep it because it is handy to adjust some settings
<ScottL> micahg, do you really remove pulse?
<ScottL> i would like for studio to do the same actually
<micahg> TheMuso: no, we ship pulse
<ScottL> :(
<TheMuso> micahg: oh ok didn't know that.
<micahg> TheMuso: so does kubuntu
<TheMuso> ScottL: Its harder to remove pulse when many GNOME bits depend on it heavily.
<TheMuso> micahg: I knew kubuntu did.
<ScottL> micahg, isn't the xfce4-mixer being reworked though
<TheMuso> I just thought xfce/xubuntu didn't use any pieces that rely on pulse.
<micahg> ScottL: it controls pulse fine for me
<ScottL> TheMuso, yes, that was mentioned earlier
<ScottL> TheMuso, did you expect another package to control audio for studio in lieu of pavucontrol?
<TheMuso> ScottL: Well not having looked at your seeds, I don't know.
<ScottL> i ask because perhaps i an unaware of a package
<micahg> TheMuso: we ship speech-dispatcher
<TheMuso> micahg: speech-dispatcher doesn't rely on pulse to function. If you want me to break the audio drivers up a bit more, I can certainly do that for future releases.
<micahg> TheMuso: do you want less things shipping pulse?
<TheMuso> micahg: No, but I don't want to force pulse on derivatives if they don't want it.
<TheMuso> Kubuntu worked fine for a while without it, even though Ubuntu was shipping it.
<micahg> TheMuso: ok, we're fine with it ATM, will keep in mind though in case it comes up later
<TheMuso> Ok.
<ScottL> micahg, do you remember which package xubuntu uses to set the xsession to xfce?
<micahg> ScottL: should be xubuntu-default-settings
<astraljava> Hmmm... why are we pulling in gnome-screensaver in ubuntustudio-screensaver?
<astraljava> Ahh...
<astraljava> So discussion; do we want that, or can we just use xscreensaver?
<jussi> Does anyone actually use screensavers anymore? apart from "blank screen"?
<astraljava> doesn't matter, that's the app that provides the blank screen anyway.
<ScottL> astraljava, i'd rather eliminate gnome-screensaver
<ScottL> i can see where cory was saying a lot of xubuntu's settings are in xml files
<ScottL> last night i looked through xubuntu-default-settings and saw xml files for the panel and other things, looks fairly straight forward if tedious
<astraljava> ScottL: Right. So we just need to see now how we can set those with our session.
<ScottL> astraljava, i had already put some code into ubuntustudio-default-session (i think) to set the session last cycle
<ScottL> i put code somewhere :P   just not sure it was ubuntustudio-default-setting
<ScottL> astraljava, sorry, was answering what i _thought_ you said...been digging into stuff this morning and i'm a little off
<ScottL> astraljava, if our goal is to completely replicate our current settings, then this shouldn't be to hard, just tedious because it will be a bunch of manual editing of config files
<ScottL> looking at xfce-look there are some really sexy themes already existing, maybe we should to do like shnatsel suggested and not spend our time making a theme but find one that we like
<ScottL> or even one that is closer
<falktx> hm, I think xfce can use gtk2 themes
<ScottL> i saw many places where they were talking about editing gtk2 files so that certainly makes sense
<ScottL> good afternoon (?) falktx
<ScottL> only 8:22 here :)
<falktx> hey
<falktx> 2:22 pm here
<ScottL> in da morning
<ScottL> i think this is cool!
 * falktx just finished eating a big mac, hm...
<ScottL> there is some serious hacking going on these days for ubuntu studio :)
<ScottL> i have head cory and per.sia and the.muso talk about the old days when studio first started and i imagine it was like this
<ScottL> hi shnatsel 
<shnatsel> hi ScottL 
<ScottL> astraljava, when i said i was "a little off" it's because i'm trying to figure out a solo i did
<shnatsel> ScottL: we gotta replace multi-instrument recording in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Workflows with Jokosher
<ScottL> i'm getting really close to finishing this song
<ScottL> shnatsel, lol
<shnatsel> bad wording, sorry
<ScottL> it's one of these solos that i improvised and it turned out really good except the last part
 * shnatsel googles for ScottL's songs
<ScottL> shnatsel, i thought you were making a joke to replace ardour with jokosher
<ScottL> the last part of the solo was very fast but i flubbed many of the notes and i've spent a while trying to figure it out again
<shnatsel> ScottL: not Ardour
<ScottL> but i did this morning
<shnatsel> ScottL: Audacity and GNOME Sound Recorder
<ScottL> turns out it was much simplier that i was trying to make it
<ScottL> shnatsel, ah!  that makes more sense
<ScottL> oh, if you actually google my name you will get some jazz guy who does iron maiden covers...seriously
<ScottL> it's not me though
<ScottL> shnatsel, you prefer jokosher over audacity and/or sound recorder?
<shnatsel> ScottL: never tried tbh, I don't record audio :)
<shnatsel> ScottL: audacity is kind of a swiss knife and GNOME Sound Recorder is just damn simple
<shnatsel> ScottL: so, I don't REALLY know if Jokosher is good for multi-track recording
<shnatsel> ScottL: but it seems to me that its developers knew what they're doing
<ScottL> eh, that could be argued with jokosher
<ScottL> perhaps i'm confused now, but what are you suggesting is changed?
<shnatsel> ScottL: it's just weird to see GNOME Sound Recorder and Audacity suggested to be used for recording audio on a studio distro
 * shnatsel edits workflows that he knows well - graphics
<ScottL> ah! i see what you are saying now
<ScottL> i agree with you sentiments as well
<ScottL> we don't currently ship audacity and i've taken a lot of flack for that too
<ScottL> that is to say, several people have put work flows on the page but that doesn't mean we ship everything
<ScottL> we still have to evaluate whether it is a well developed and supported work flow...AND if it really is something most users will want to do
<ScottL> to be direct, i should have separated that page into two pages which are "supported or shipped work flows" with "extra work flows"
<ScottL> the ones that we don't ship still are a valuable resource to those who will want to accomplish those tasks
<ScottL> shnatsel, one goal i have had for ubuntu studio is to stream line the application set
<ScottL> too many times it seems like we included things in the past because "it's a new app" or "it's neat"
<ScottL> but it didn't support a whole work flow...it was just one component
<ScottL> i would like to find work flows that a majority of our users are going to use and ship those packages
<ScottL> i have been toying with making an applications (my first real foray into programing within ubuntu) to support installation of other alternative work flows
<ScottL> including those not directly shipped currently
<ScottL> for example, not every ubuntu studio user will want to do a podcast... and therefore we shouldn't ship all the tools for this
<shnatsel> ScottL: here comes the patched Ubiquity again
<ScottL> good point
<ScottL> but that means that we have to ship in the image ALL the applications though
<ScottL> that starts making a big image perhaps
<shnatsel> ScottL: no, we don't
<shnatsel> ScottL: we can make some workflows not shipped, but available for download instead
<ScottL> lol, i'm trying to ask you why not without it sounding rude....and even "why" seems rude
<ScottL> how can we do that?  (that's better)
<shnatsel> ScottL: patch Ubiquity further
<shnatsel> ScottL: it might support that already btw
<ScottL> do you mean like how the installation already pulls stuff from apt-repositories?
<ScottL> if that is the case then i'm on board :)
<shnatsel> ScottL: yes, it already downloads updates and languages, why can't we make it download extra apps?
<ScottL> shnatsel, i'm hoping that "why can't we make it download extra apps" is a rhetorical question ;)
<shnatsel> ScottL: it is :)
<ScottL> lol
<ScottL> good :)
<ScottL> i LIKE it
<shnatsel> ScottL: in fact, it might already support it
<ScottL> shnatsel, do you write for OMGUbuntu?
<shnatsel> ScottL: no, it's them who write for me
<shnatsel> MWAHAHA!!1
<shnatsel> ;)
<ScottL> oh..but LOL
<ScottL> someone on google+ is positing that it is all Canonical employees who write there, kinda shady stuff is what he is insinuating
<shnatsel> ScottL: AFAIK osho has little connection with Canonical... they do have good relationship, though
<shnatsel> ScottL: pretty like elementary
<ScottL> that is what i thought, but without any evidence...oh well
<shnatsel> ScottL: ask akhatj in #elementary or #novacut
<shnatsel> ScottL: he's not online atm though
<ScottL> shnatsel, i've been reading about novacut...interesting, and controversial, project
<shnatsel> ScottL: why controversial? o_O
<ScottL> shnatsel, claims of vaporware, misappropriate or mismanagement of donations
<shnatsel> O_o
<ScottL> at least that some of the stuff i did when i googled it after klatuu's interview with one of the developers
<ScottL> s/did/found
<ScottL> i've seen some of the demos though, so it would seem that it's not vaporware
<shnatsel> not vaporware for sure
<shnatsel> after the demos
<shnatsel> geez, a famous magazine called Unreal vaporware
<shnatsel> all-time classics need time to be created :)
<shnatsel> IMHO Novacut is developing very rapidly. Faster than I expected at least.
<shnatsel> and donation management is always controversial.
<falktx> hm, what did the novacut devs did so far?
<shnatsel> flyer workflow expanded (from "?"s to 2 options)
<falktx> heh, vacations...?
<shnatsel> geez, paperwork!
<shnatsel> falktx: let me google some demos
<shnatsel> falktx: http://vimeo.com/groups/novacutartistdiaries
<ScottL> shnatsel, add other tasks as well, don't feel constrained
<shnatsel> ScottL: I know Scribus-NG is usually used for desktop publishing - books, etc
<shnatsel> ScottL: I'm not sure how to write that, though
<shnatsel> ScottL: AFAIK it's the only FOSS desktop publishing app
<astraljava> ScottL: Oh, yes, it was like this, except that those guys actually knew what they were doing. :)
<falktx3> shnatsel: ping
<falktx3> shnatsel: you there?
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-09-06
<knome> ScottL, what's the status on the ubuntu studio website update? we're just getting the new xubuntu website theme reviewed and after that, hopefully before oneiric release, getting that into production...
<knome> ScottL, i was wondering if you need some help, or some more
<astraljava> gnome rocks! err... wait, no, knome does.
<knome> xfce ftw
<astraljava> True.
<falktx> hey there
<falktx> ScottL: oin
<falktx> ping
<astraljava> oink oink to you too, Filipe. :)
<knome> i thought i didn't join #stall
<astraljava> I sneaked you in.
<knome> i shoudl've guessed that
<knome> bah
<shnatsel> falktx: pong
<falktx> shnatsel: someone mailed me about the new gimpstudio packages
<falktx> basically he wants to copy them but doesn't want to fix it
<shnatsel> falktx: fwd?
<falktx> shnatsel: what's your mail?
<shnatsel> falktx: shnatsel@gmail.com
<astraljava> Hi shnatsel, falktx, did you manage to come to conclusion about the app selection for the seeds? I could update them tonight.
<falktx> shnatsel: err, this is a logged channel...
<shnatsel> falktx: it's OK
<shnatsel> falktx: my mail shows up in so many places
<shnatsel> falktx: and it's googlable anyway
<falktx> gmail is good enough to handle spam
<astraljava> And imagine that, now you two can be googled by one search?
<astraljava> ? == !, of course. :)
<falktx> astraljava: my boss found my mail by googling my nickname
<falktx> astraljava: that's how we first talked
<shnatsel> astraljava: hi, I've just updated some workflows and proposed even less packages to include/replace in the mailing list, I have no idea who's responsible for accepting/rejecting those changes
<astraljava> shnatsel: The team collectively, but I have taken that task on my responsibility. Anyone in the -dev team can push, though. Which reminds me, have you applied already?
<shnatsel> falktx: that's rly weird - I have tested that use case thoroughly and even shipped the packages in my own distro, it worked fine with no users
<shnatsel> astraljava: nope, should I?
<falktx3> astraljava: did pulseaudio got cutoff? if not pulseaudio-module-jack should be there
<astraljava> shnatsel: I dunno, do you wanna? :)
<shnatsel> astraljava: no idea tbh
<astraljava> falktx3: I think the discussion went to the direction where we agreed not to try to drop it at this point. It's a pain to keep away, really, at the moment.
<astraljava> Luke said he's willing to make changes for the coming cycle, though, if enough derivates don't want to use it.
<falktx3> astraljava: so *-jack there is there, right?
<astraljava> falktx3: Let me check.
 * falktx3 plans to do a unity-2d fork
<astraljava> Yep, it's there.
<falktx3> nice
<falktx3> heh, this is kinda misinformation
<astraljava> shnatsel: Well, thanks for your efforts on the app selection, anyway! I'll read through that thread tonight, and incorporate the changes to the seeds unless there's some controversy in the selection.
<falktx3> "PulseAudio with jack detection"
<astraljava> Hehe, where'd you find that?
<falktx3> ^ jack detection, has in jack hw thing that phones have, not jack audio system
<falktx3> astraljava: ^
<falktx3> http://voices.canonical.com/david.henningsson/2011/09/06/pulseaudio-with-jack-detection/
<astraljava> Oh the module?!
<astraljava> Oh, you're talking about that blog. I'll read it later, thanks.
<shnatsel> 'jackd modules for PulseAudio sound server' = pulseaudio-module-jack
<astraljava> falktx3: Okay, the statement intrigued me. Why do you say it's misinformation?
<falktx3> jack hw != jack audio
<astraljava> Hmm... yes, but he's the Canonical audio guy. I don't think he's talking about JACK, but jack, as in what you already mentioned.
<falktx3> yep
<astraljava> Then again, I might not understand it correctly.
<astraljava> I'm a little tired, and going to have a nap now. See ya later this evening.
<falktx3> time for work
<scott-work> knome: sorry for not responding sooner, yes we need help
<knome> no problemos! :)
<knome> do you need an artist and/or a developer?
<scott-work> probably a little of both
<scott-work> let me find a link....
<knome> sure
<scott-work> this is the new website...http://www.myhaiku.org/
<scott-work> it lacks any real content but also only has a few pages
<scott-work> i've never updated our current website so i'm unsure if i can even add pages using the canonical hosting
<scott-work> i'm also unfamiliar with how to change the website design through launchpad
<scott-work> note: if you click the words "audio", "video", or "graphic" the view changes
<knome> scott-work, okay...
<knome> that's quite a flashy effect
<knome> the site is not too bad
<knome> i suppose that you'd just need some of the canonical IS guys set up the new theme
<knome> that's drupal? :(
<knome> anyway, what we've done with the new xubuntu site is here: http://xubuntu.princessleia.com/
<scott-work> knome: we felt that for lengevity we should stick with canonical hosting, and yes, that is drupal
<knome> yup, we're on canonical hosting too, but we're switching to wordpress with the new site
<knome> what is exactly what you need help with?
<scott-work> sorry, got busy at work
<scott-work> knome: any artistic input would be great
<scott-work> knome: but also help understanding how the process works for hosting some of the website in launchpad and then getting it working on the hosting would be helpful too
<scott-work> we considered moving to wordpress as well, but again felt that since there are very few people involved that we should stay with drupal for the long term
<knome> i can give artistic input, but i know quite little about the process for canonical hosted stuff
<knome> wordpress is actually easier in the long run
<knome> so you prefer feedback by email or in irc?
<scott-work> which ever is the better medium for you knome 
<scott-work> i will be leaving shortly but my laptop (ScottL) is almost always on though
<knome> okay
<knome> i could send an email for starters, then we can continue discussion in irc
<knome> paste your address to PM (or chan if you don't mind) and i'll get back to you asap
<scott-work> knome: scottalavender@gmail.com
<knome> ta
<scott-work> knome:  this is asking a lot, but if you were interested in helping us to migrate to wordpress then we would certainly do so
<knome> i'd love to help you on that
<scott-work> we just chose to stay with drupal because of those involved and their limited ability and availability
<knome> yeah, i understand
<scott-work> knome: that would be awesome
<scott-work> leaving work :)
<knome> okay, see you later
<ScottL> knome, do you think it is possible to migrate the http://www.myhaiku.org/ site to wordpress?
<ScottL> or similar?  i ask because many people have already commented on how much they like this site
<falktx_> ScottL: hey
<falktx_> ScottL: I'm willing to work on that site
<falktx_> I said it before
<falktx_> ScottL: any way to get the entire sources of it?
<falktx_> maybe you have jorge's mail?
<ScottL> falktx_, http://imagebin.org/171330
<ScottL> astraljava, also
<ScottL> from the QA image that we tested and then i made the menu use the studio menu and changed the theme to the ubuntu studio theme
<falktx_> ScottL: looking good
<falktx_> don't like the decoration though
<ScottL> it's certainly better
<falktx_> desktop text is not very visible
<ScottL> i'm not a theming genius i'm hoping others are able to figure this out ;)
<falktx_> ScottL: there are lots of deco themes in xfce, we just need to pick a better one
<ScottL> falktx_, i do have his email and the source for the myhaiku site
<falktx_> ScottL: oh, great
<falktx_> ScottL: what exactly do you think the website needs?
<falktx_> besides working correctly
<ScottL> hold on, cooking, brb in 2 mins
<falktx_> btw, ScottL, I'm working on this now - http://distrho.sourceforge.net/gallery.html
<falktx_> oops
<falktx_> correct link - http://distrho.sourceforge.net/
<ScottL> cooking for the kids
<ScottL> back now
<ScottL> that looks cool falktx_ 
<ScottL> tell you what, you are part of the team and have access to the code
<ScottL> would you work with knome to make this happen if write up a decent spec and blueprint?
<ScottL> i'm not particular to whether it is in wordpress or drupal or what particular graphics are used
<ScottL> but i think i can (or already have) develop a good framework description of what it should accomplish and it's goals
<falktx_> who's knome
<falktx_> ?
<falktx_> knome: oh, hey there
<falktx_> ScottL: so, knome already offered to work no the site, is that right?
<falktx_> s/no/on
<ScottL> yes he did
<falktx_> ScottL: what can he do?
<falktx_> I never noticed him around here...
<ScottL> sorry, getting kids their dinner
<ScottL> falktx_, he said he did this for xubuntu:  http://xubuntu.princessleia.com/
<ScottL> and they are working on migrating it to the ubuntu website
<falktx_> wow, no match for my skills!
<falktx_> I mean, he's way better than me
<ScottL> i don't know about that, that sourceforge site looked pretty darn good to me :)
<falktx_> ScottL: it's a html5 template I downloaded
<falktx_> not done by me
<falktx_> "Website template designed by TemplateMonster.com"
<ScottL> ah, it look really good
<ScottL> did you ever see the ones i mocked up with inkscape?  the first one was really scary looking
<falktx_> no, please give me a link
<falktx_> how scary is it?
<ScottL> hahaha, not happening my friend :P
<ScottL> it also got erased when my server got screwed up anyways
<ScottL> hosting had a problem with their raid which got corrupted and synced garbage onto my server
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-09-07
<ScottL> created a blueprint for updating the website:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntustudio-resources/+spec/update-ubuntustudio-website
<ScottL> knome, falktx ^^^
<ScottL> holstein, ^^^ astraljava 
<falktx> ScottL: joomla is also another nice CMS
<falktx> opensource too
<ScottL> please feel free to update it
<ScottL> falktx, i'm not sure that joomla is acceptable to canonical
<ScottL> maybe it is, i don't know
<falktx> "acceptable to canonical" ?
<falktx> canonical refuses opensource projects?
<falktx> wiki seems stuck to me
<falktx> ScottL: sorry, I can't login...
<falktx> ah, now I'm on
<falktx> ScottL: no idea how to edit this though
 * falktx doesn't like the ubuntu wiki
<falktx> arch wiki is much cleaner and easy to use
<ScottL> falktx, i should have said "acceptable to canonical security"
<falktx> security...?
<ScottL> i think they have been quiet restrictive previously about which platforms can be used
<falktx> not considered safe enough?
<ScottL> it wasn't until recently that they started using wordpress i believe
<ScottL> i.e. it was drupal or nothing for a while i believe
<falktx> geez
<falktx> canonical guys must be crazy 
<falktx> ScottL: anyway, please try to speak with knome about the website
<falktx> ScottL: if he can't do it, I'll be glad to take the task
<falktx> just remember that I already have other things to do, so if he can do it, I'll be glad
<falktx> in last case, I can drop my things to work with US website. getting this done is very important and I realy want to see it happening
<ScottL> falktx, pushing the code to the bzr branch would be a huge help
<falktx> code?
<ScottL> i'll find the link...
<ScottL> https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntustudio-resources/website
<ScottL> as best as i can tell (and i'm far from a website expert) the base code (like newpage.php) is hosted in a bzr branch
<ScottL> once it has been reviewed (pesumably by security) then it is pushed by others to the hosted site
<ScottL> then someone who has access to the site can generate content
<ScottL> this is how i _think_ it is handled but i haven't talked to anyone who has particular knowledge yet
<falktx> ok, ScottL, I'll take a look tomoroow
<falktx> I don't see an index.php
<falktx> oh, ScottL, is this a wordpress theme?
<falktx> ah, drupal
<ScottL> falktx, it should be drupal6 (i think)
<falktx> I'll install it later
<ScottL> knome, mentioned migrating to wordpress perhaps
<falktx> ScottL: what about the new proposal, do you got the code for it?
<ScottL> i have it in my email somewhere, i can find it later tonight or tomorrow
<ScottL> i need to update the spec more to include that and a few other things
<falktx> ok, please forward it to me
<astraljava> ScottL: I think the theming looks really sleek(?). Will check the blueprint for the webserver, but that's not really my field, and frankly I've got my hands full on other things. But will definitely read it through, anyway.
<knome> falktx, hey!
<falktx> knome: hey, finally!
<knome> falktx, where should i start? :)
<falktx> knome: ask ScottL
<knome> well, to ScottL too, of course the theme is convertable to wordpress
<falktx> ScottL: there's a blueprint for it
<falktx> err
<knome> hehe
<falktx> knome: there's a blueprint for it
<knome> yep, i read the backlog
<knome> what do you think of wordpress as the platform?
<falktx> never used it
<falktx> only used joomla so far, oh, and mediawiki
<knome> i've used it quite a lot, and it's way better than joomla or drupal
<falktx> my kx site is done in mediawiki
<knome> drupal is just a horror :(
<knome> http://shimmerproject.org/,  http://open.knome.fi/
<knome> done with WP
<knome> and http://xubuntu.princessleia.com/ is WP also
<falktx> knome: i'm working on this - http://distrho.sourceforge.net - although I did *not* made the base template
<knome> falktx, mmyeah
<knome> ScottL did say that many people liked the new site looks, so maybe we should keep that, or...?
<knome> or was he referring to this site or yours? :)
<falktx> the new US one
<falktx> I like it too
<falktx> ScottL: I'm still waiting on that email with source...
<knome> i'm not sure if i'd need source. converting from drupal theme to WP theme (if we're going to do that) is not trivial, and really, some of the stuff need tweaking anyway
<knome> :)
<knome> okay, i'm going to cook some lunch now, bbl
<scott-work> hi shnatsel|busy how are you doing today?
<scott-work> i made a blueprint for the website update :)  although i'm still clarifying some points on it
<scott-work> but it's a start
<scott-work> i need to find an email for falktx_ as well on it
<scott-work> knome: did you see the discussion about the website blueprint as well?
<scott-work> knome: please let me know how i can improve it (please, please)
<scott-work> i really want it to be as helpful as possible
<knome> yeah, i read the discussion
<knome> i can check that later, yeah
<scott-work> thank you, i also got your email and i will give it attention tonight
<shnatsel|busy> scott-work: I'm OK, messing with seeds. Canonical guys clearly never planned to export this system.
<scott-work> knome: falktx_ would really like to help with the website as well, is there something he can do to assist as well?
<falktx_> knome: do you think you got it?
<falktx_> knome: you seem a lot more experienced on this than me
<shnatsel|busy> hardly any docs and read/write locks required for seed branches and some branches can't even be branched without auth to canonical servers
<falktx_> scott-work: thanks for the mail!
<knome> falktx_, i can "lead" it, but i'll keep you informed on the progress :)
<falktx_> knome: ah yes, let me know where I can help1
<falktx_> *help!
<knome> falktx_, okay, great, i'll do that once i get started
<shnatsel|busy> scott-work: what blueprint? https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntustudio still tells me that blueprints are disabled
<scott-work> knome: i have the files for the http://myhaiku.org/ site if it helps you at all
<knome> scott-work, https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntustudio-resources/+spec/update-ubuntustudio-website
<knome> err, shnatsel|busy 
<scott-work> shnatsel|busy: i ended up created the bluprint under the code at the bzr branch
<scott-work> shnatsel|busy:  i thought that the blueprints worked under ubuntustudio-dev before but i couldn't get them to work this time, maybe something has changed
<knome> scott-work, sure, at least the artwork comes handy when i don't have to recreate it. btw, is there svg sourcer for the US logo?
<scott-work> but even as project lead i couldn't find a way to enable them
<falktx_> knome: will you keep the web structure or change to a cms?
<scott-work> knome: i will have to find it
<knome> scott-work, okay, no hurry :)
<knome> falktx_, i'll create a wordpress theme
<knome> scott-work, ^ that was okay, am i right? :)
<shnatsel|busy> scott-work: go to https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntustudio, there should be a "configure blueprints" link at the right
<scott-work> knome: i think wordpress is good
<knome> good!
<knome> 3.x is wonderful as a CMS too
<scott-work> knome: my only serious concern (which is platform independent) is getting the code into the bzr branch and then pushed to the site
<scott-work> charlie-tca: did you have any involvement with coordinating the xubuntu website migration to wordpress or know who did?
<scott-work> shnatsel|busy: done
<knome> scott-work, this: https://launchpad.net/xubuntu-website-wordpress is how we did it, it's pushed into two separate branches (theme/plugins), and the canonical IS services staff is now reviewing it, and they'll handle uploading to production
<knome> scott-work, pleia2 is working on that, but i'm aware of what has happened so far too :)
<falktx_> it sucks when someone reviews your site. all the work and they simply say "no"
<scott-work> knome: my apologies, i thought you weren't involved in that part
<scott-work> falktx_: it is canonical hosting and i dont' begrudge them the right to protect their security
<knome> scott-work, well, not exactly *involved*, but i'm getting all the CC's
<shnatsel|busy> scott-work: it works! thanks!
<charlie-tca> scott-work: pleia2 handled the IS requests, and knome and pleia2 did the actual layouts
<scott-work> knome: ah, but sometimes that is enough as in cases like this :)
<knome> "review" probably means they will tell to change something, or that they'll change something theirself, and then push it to production
<falktx_> scott-work: so any change needs to be reviewed by canonical?
<knome> falktx_, yes
<scott-work> i have been told that they expressly forbid some plugins on security basis so we have to be selective sometimes about what functions we want
<knome> falktx_, any change to the code, changes to content via WP admin (or any other tool) are of course manageable by yourself
<knome> scott-work, you can do pretty much everything what myhaiku.org does with core WP, except the javascript slider on the front page
<shnatsel|busy> scott-work: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntustudio/+spec/livedvd
<shnatsel|busy> scott-work: I guess you can set general direction to approved in the livedvd blueprint
<scott-work> shnatsel|busy: would it be beneficial to reassign the website-update to "ubuntustudio" instead of the bzr branch?
<shnatsel|busy> scott-work: well, I think it should be linked to the branch containing the ongoing work described in the blueprint
<shnatsel|busy> scott-work: I guess moving it to ubuntustudio project would be a good idea
<shnatsel|busy> it would make it more visible
<scott-work> okay, i'll reassign it to ubuntustudio and link the brank
<scott-work> branch
<shnatsel|busy> it's called "re-target blueprint"
<shnatsel|busy> changing project
<scott-work> i did it once already :)
<shnatsel|busy> it took me a while to discover how to change project
<scott-work> shnatsel|busy: when i did the update-website blueprint i re-targeted it once because i think i assigned it to ubuntustudio-dev the first time just to get it done
<scott-work> re-targeted "update-website" blueprint:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntustudio/+spec/update-ubuntustudio-website
<shnatsel|busy> scott-work: awsum blueprint
<scott-work> thanks :)  i still have some more to add to it though, some further clarifications and examples
<scott-work> i think i'll also make a blueprint for the -lowlatency kernel 
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-09-08
<ScottL>  i think i just received sponsorship to go to UDS this november
<ScottL> i was surprised especially because i didn't apply for sponsorship
<micahg> ScottL: I think I'm happy for you :)
<micahg> be sure to say hi :)
<ScottL> thank you micahg, i'm happy about it too :)
<astraljava> ScottL: Damn! :( Now I'm really sad that I couldn't apply. We have to go, one of these cycles, so that we can catch up. :)
<shnatsel> !logs
<ubottu> Official channel logs can be found at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/ . LoCo channels are now logged there too; for older LoCo channel logs, see http://logs.ubuntu-eu.org/freenode/
<quadrispro> hi all!
<quadrispro> persia, will you join the UDS-P?
<ScottL> astraljava, did you get any responses about which applications to include to the seeds?
<ScottL> if not then i can assist either during my lunch (+5 hours hence) or this evening (+12 hours hence)
<ScottL>  
<ScottL> i would also be very keen to get a better theme going....even if it means ditching our current theme altogether
<ScottL> this might be just for oneiric and we can do a better job for oneiric+1
<ScottL>  
<ScottL> falktx, do you think you might be able to help us get a theme together before oneiric ships?
<falktx> heh, I'm also asking for a theme for kx
<falktx> ScottL: the gtk theme is already nice, we should keep it
<ScottL> falktx, can you help get it correctly implemented?
<falktx> ScottL: gtk? what is missing?
<ScottL> i don't know that anything is missing, but it isn't installing when ubuntu studio is installed from ISO
<falktx> hm, seed?
<falktx> isn't ubuntustudio-look pushed?
<ScottL> falktx, i believe it is
<ScottL> although i suppose it might even be ubuntustudio-default-settings
<falktx> ScottL: transmission is in the seeds. is it really necessary?
<falktx> torrents are not a good idea for a clean US install, at least I think so
<ScottL> hmmm, not sure, i'll give some more thought to it
<ScottL> i've gotta get the kids out the door for school/day care
<falktx> I need to eat
<ScottL> i'll be on in an hour or so at work :)
<holstein> ScottL: geeze
 * holstein is busy
<holstein> sorry i havent had a chance to look at that link
<astraljava> ScottL: I was told there were updates on the mailing list, but I didn't see any. Will check the archives, though. Something might have slipped past me, or I've accidentally deleted them, or something.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-09-09
<ScottL> astraljava, i'm later than i expected i have updates for the seeds for you
<ScottL> i think the first three will be in the graphics seed:
<ScottL> 1. add mypaint
<ScottL> 2. add simplescan and remove xsane
<ScottL> 3. add darktable
<ScottL> i'm not sure where the next is, perhaps -desktop
<ScottL> 4. add phatch and remove nautilus-image-converter
<ScottL> astraljava, correction on one package name; simplescan should be simple-scan
<ScottL> other than a suggestion to make a photo seed i believe this completes all the suggestions
<falktx_> ScottL: is gladish in there?
<falktx_> we'll talk later
<ScottL> aye, it was put in there earlier, but we'll talk later :)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-09-10
<scott-work> there's still quite a bit of stuff to try to fix for oneiric which we also talked about in the last meeting
<scott-work> if i made a blueprint to give it some organization would people still be interested in getting it done
<scott-work> astraljava: shnatsel holstein falktx scott-work ?
<shnatsel> hmm?
<scott-work> i think this still includes icons, finding and implementing a theme, testing menu & lightdm fix, xubuntu session as default
<scott-work> shnatsel: the two sentences before i pinged people
<shnatsel> lightdm - on my radar, needed both for elementary and US
<falktx> scott-work: are the menu and lightdm packages updated in the repos now?
<shnatsel> scott-work: live dvd builds - totally undocumented and build system just changed
<shnatsel> scott-work: I can't set it up locally because there are no docs
<shnatsel> scott-work: the blueprint about docs: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/foundations-o-live-build
<shnatsel> scott-work: also needed for UGR and elementary
<scott-work> shnatsel: WOAH!  either i had a dream or i really read this, but it seemed like i found out how to do the seed building thing
<scott-work> you just made me kinda remember this (must have been a dream then)
<shnatsel> scott-work: the system I was aware of is obsolete
<scott-work> ah
<shnatsel> scott-work: they changed it to debian-live
<scott-work> falktx: i don't know, i was waiting for astraljava to poke me when it was done
<shnatsel> scott-work: they were using https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-cdimage/debian-cd/ubuntu
<scott-work> i also gave him the new package names to include in the seeds per our meeting and mailing list discussion
<shnatsel> scott-work: but now they're using debian-live, UGR guy did a nice research on that: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ugr-live/+spec/ugr-live-build
<falktx> scott-work: the menu fix is not pushed to the repos yet :(
<shnatsel> scott-work: I pinged infinity (the assignee) about blueprint status, no luck
<scott-work> shnatsel: would you be available to help resolve either the 'xubuntu as default session' issue or the 'get icons working in oneiric' issue?
<scott-work> i _think_ i have a line on the default xubuntu session fix
<scott-work> i had done something similar with 'ubuntu classic' vs 'ubuntu' (i.e. gnome-panel vs unity)
<shnatsel> scott-work: default session
<shnatsel> scott-work: I know how to fix it
<shnatsel> scott-work: don't worry
<scott-work> shnatsel: cool and sweetness :)
<shnatsel> scott-work: I have all the info from the horse's mouth
<scott-work> lol, which horse?
<shnatsel> scott-work: didrocks
<scott-work> he does rock, he was the one who helped me before as well
<scott-work> very cool dude
<shnatsel> yes
<scott-work> very patient with some as ignorant about that stuff as i was
<falktx> scott-work: what can I do to help right now?
<scott-work> falktx: do you think you can help with getting the icons up and running well along with helping with the theme issues?
<falktx> ah, icons
<falktx> scott-work: let me push the code and see what's missing
<scott-work> falktx: also when we start getting a website demo created and working can you help with researching iframes and see if we can pull the wiki information into the website?
<scott-work> thanks both shnatsel and falktx 
<scott-work> as soon as astraljava pushes code i'm waiting to test
<falktx> yes
<falktx> scott-work: knome is working on the site, right?
<shnatsel> scott-work: If I were you, I'd just use elementary or some other decent pre-made theme. Xubuntu and lubuntu already use variations of it, + ubuntu uses a variation of elementary icons.
<scott-work> shnatsel: is the elementary theme in launchpad and in the official repos?  otherwise we can't use them :(
<shnatsel> scott-work: of course in official repos
<scott-work> even better :)
<scott-work> falktx: did you see what shnatsel said about the elementary theme/icons ?
<scott-work> ^^^
<shnatsel> scott-work: they also have lots of XFCE symlinks
<falktx> scott-work: what's so bad about the current US icon theme?
<shnatsel> scott-work: I'm not sure if it's sufficient though
<shnatsel> falktx: if you switch to elementary icons, you get XFCE symlinks for free, + consistency with other ubuntu flavours
<scott-work> oh, sorry...are we talking about the theme or the icon set?  i might be confusing myself and everyone else
<shnatsel> the elementary xfwm theme might be not in ubuntu repos yet (I haven't checked tbh)
<falktx> what about oxygen icons?
<falktx> (the ones from kde)
<scott-work> falktx: i'm not opposed to the ubuntu studio theme or icon set, i just want something that will be easy to implement and maintain at this point
<falktx> scott-work: btw, here's how kx theme looks like - http://kxstudio.sourceforge.net/tmp/scr017.png
<shnatsel> well, that's KDE
<scott-work> falktx: which theme is that?
<falktx> mine
<scott-work> kx theme, sorry i see that in the text now
<falktx> shnatsel: not just kde, it's kde, qt4, gtk2 and qt3
<scott-work> falktx: is that in the ubuntu repos?  otherwise we can't directly use it
<falktx> scott-work: the required dependencies are (qtcurve), we would just need the config
<falktx> but I guess this is too much dark for most people
<scott-work> it's great to have a brand, some visual element that immediate designates who and what we are, but some of the releases have been shite (IMO)
<scott-work> and it's kinda weird to have a good looking release that is falling apart and not performing as well as it could
<falktx> scott-work: is this the branch - https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntustudio-icon-theme/UbuntuStudio ?
<scott-work> i'm not dictating which theme we go for but i'd rather invest the time into fixing things and using an existing theme that is just simple and clean and even gray everywhere
<scott-work> falktx: yes, i believe that is
<scott-work> falktx: let me get an example of what i'm talking about
<scott-work> look at the third screenshot:  http://ubuntu-art.org/content/show.php/Ambiance+dark?content=132875
<scott-work> i think we've seen this before
<scott-work> but dont' focus on any one particular feature or color....
<scott-work> i'm not saying "steal this color" or "use this decoration"
<falktx> gee, ugly
<scott-work> what i'm saying is that this is clean and elegant...simple and direct
<scott-work> really?
<falktx> yes, it all looks the same
<falktx> it might look cool in the first instance, but I seriously believe you'll get tired of that theme pretty quick
<falktx> no colors...
<scott-work> i'm not worried about colors so much, i don't think one of the goals for ubuntu studio is to provide a beautiful desktop but rather an extremely functional desktop that gets out of the way and allows user to create
<scott-work> to pervert a shuttleworth saying "beauty is not a feature"
<scott-work> if we get beauty as well, that's great then :)
<falktx> scott-work: let me try and check what can be done about the icons
<scott-work> falktx: okay, but just to make the point, i wouldn't necessarily oppose the kx theme as it has many of the qualities i describe as desirable
<scott-work> although the only thing i would immediate suggest is the differentiate between the black background and the black windows more
<falktx> scott-work: the problem with dark themes is that many apps don't repect them, so some text becames unreadable
<scott-work> falktx: very true
<scott-work> some of my thoughts have been revolving around a light gray and slighly dark gray theme
<falktx> scott-work: the difference should be visible with a brighter shadow
<scott-work> from what i've seen of elementary, i like it
<scott-work> falktx: look at the 'midori' page here:  http://elementaryos.org/discover
<scott-work> i'm not suggesting we replicate this, but that window dressing is amost clinically clean and simple
<falktx> ok
<falktx> scott-work: so, do you prefer to keep the US icon, fixed for xfce, or use a new one?
<scott-work> sorry falktx, i'm probably confusing you with all this :)
<falktx> hm?
<scott-work> falktx: my completely main and overriding concern right now is finding the easiest to implement and maintain at this moment
<scott-work> confusing = describing very intangible (and sometimes seemingly contrary) qualities about a desktop theme
<scott-work> without actually telling you what it looks like
<falktx> scott-work: we should just get a working theme for now
<scott-work> absolutely
<falktx> scott-work: next release, I truly believe qtcurve should be used
<falktx> no more cross-desktop problems
<scott-work> falktx: i say let's head that direction at that time then
<scott-work> shnatsel: can you help me understand a little more about elementary?
<falktx> scott-work: let me post some screens using qtcurve.
<falktx> http://kde-look.org/CONTENT/content-pre1/112688-1.png
<shnatsel> scott-work: sure, what do you want to know?
<scott-work> falktx: that has some very pleasing qualities
<scott-work> shnatsel: looking at the 'midori' page on the http://elementaryos.org/discover page...
<falktx> http://kde-look.org/CONTENT/content-pre1/126954-1.jpg
<scott-work> shnatsel: the window dressings on midori make me want to understand how it was accomlished
<scott-work> shnatsel:  is elementary a complete DE?  is it based on XFCE?
<shnatsel> scott-work: elementary is a name of the project. It produces a DE called Pantheon, that is based on some GNOME libraries. It also uses some GNOME components while they work well or we don't have the manpower to replace them.
<scott-work> i'm sorry, i now remember you talking about pantheon
<shnatsel> we also have a DE-independent desktop shell
<shnatsel> Pantheon Shell
<scott-work> you might include some of that information in the 'discover' pages somewhere or is it there and i didn't see it?
<shnatsel> we generally follow the principle that our apps should be as DE-independent as possible, if it doesn't hurt the UX
<shnatsel> scott-work: it might be in the journal
<scott-work> ah
<shnatsel> scott-work: all this stuff is in development
<scott-work> oh, shnatsel , have you considered how you will make changes to the ubuntu studio code for the session fix?
<shnatsel> scott-work: elementary OS v0.2 "Luna" has been postponed to 12.04, but the shell and other apps probably will be released earlier
<scott-work> i don't believe you are part of the ubuntustudio-devel team 
<shnatsel> scott-work: I'll just upload the code somewhere and give you a link :)
<scott-work> cool
<scott-work> shnatsel: would you like to be on the ubuntustudio-devel team?
<shnatsel> scott-work: no idea
<scott-work> shnatsel: we can talk about it further if you are interested, just let me know
<shnatsel> scott-work: do you have a package that ships your default settings?
<scott-work> yes...hold on a sec
<scott-work> https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntustudio-default-settings/UbuntuStudio
<shnatsel> wow, a project...
<shnatsel> OK
<shnatsel> I'll base off that thing then
<scott-work> falktx: i'm sorry, but to clarify, are you working on the icon set and the theme as well?
<scott-work> shnatsel: i'm not sure a understand, are you saying there is a lot of work to do or that it's a lot of code?
<falktx> scott-work: i'm trying to find the missing symlinks
<scott-work> ah, okay :)
<falktx> brb
<shnatsel> why doesn't he just grab elementary theme, nautilus, and ctrl+f "xfce" ?
<shnatsel> that should do it
<shnatsel> or better, some native XFCE theme
<shnatsel> scott-work: from elementary you might be also interested in http://danrabbit.deviantart.com/art/Desktop-Log-In-251559180
<shnatsel> scott-work: but that's for 12.04
<scott-work> shnatsel: that looks nice!
<scott-work> very svelte
<scott-work> shnatsel: i don't know why falktx doesn't do what you are suggesting
<shnatsel> scott-work: especially in comparison with ubuntu's plain login screen
<scott-work> part of the problem is that i'm so ignorant about so many aspects of this still :(
<scott-work> the coding time i've spent has been to fix stuff that ubuntu has "broken" and just generaly upkeep 
<scott-work> i've done almost no theming or messing with icon sets
<scott-work> i recognize that blue haried girl from scott pilgrim
<shnatsel> I don't
<craigs63> hi all
<falktx> scott-work: I don't see the US wallpapers on xfce configs
<scott-work> hi craigs63 , i'm going to respond to your email someday :P  really!
<craigs63> no worries, it turned into more of an essay than it should've
<scott-work> falktx: shnatsel was suggesting grabing the elementary theme, nautilius, and ctrl+f "xfce" or use a native XFCE theme, does that make sense?
<falktx> scott-work: yes
<scott-work> i like essays, most of my emails and posts and blogs turn into them which is why i end up doing so few of them it seems :/
<shnatsel> that gives all the symlinks at once
<shnatsel> sudo updatedb && locate xfce | grep /path/to/some/xfce/theme
<falktx> shnatsel: yes, then maybe we can change the icons a bit, added the US logos and whatnot
<shnatsel> falktx: if you're speaking of elementary, of course you can
<falktx> scott-work: I agree with shnatsel
<shnatsel> falktx: ubuntu did it, xubuntu did it, lubuntu did it
<scott-work> falktx: good!  because i don't really still understand all this
<falktx> scott-work: am I ok to make this change then?
<scott-work> falktx: sure :)
<scott-work> we need a working theme and icon set
<falktx> scott-work: I can work the icons
<falktx> scott-work: the theme already works fine
<falktx> it's missing a gtk3 variant though
<falktx> scott-work: which engine does the US theme uses?
<scott-work> i think it used to be metacity but i can't be sure right now
<falktx> nah, the theme engine, not deco
<scott-work> i don't know then and i'm not sure who would know right now
<falktx> deco is metacity yes, but the theme itself, what is it?
<falktx> I'll check it then
<scott-work> would the -desktop seed have it?
<scott-work> looks like murrine
<scott-work> 133 	   * gtk2-engines			# DanielHolbach (gtk2-engines were merged into one package)  134 	   * gtk2-engines-murrine         # UbuntuStudio's theme.  135 	   * tango-icon-theme  136 	   * tango-icon-theme-common
<scott-work> from the -desktop seed
<falktx> is murrine being ported to gtk3 yet?
<shnatsel> falktx: yes
<shnatsel> falktx: uh...
<shnatsel> falktx: no, it won't be ported
<shnatsel> falktx: the guy who wrote murrine writes Unico for GTK3
<shnatsel> falktx: cimi
<shnatsel> falktx: he's employed by canonical
<falktx> i saw some ubuntu package...
<falktx> nah, it's empty
<falktx> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gtk3-engines-murrine
<shnatsel> falktx: ambiance uses murrine for gtk2 and unico for gtk3
<shnatsel> falktx: same for elementary gtk
<falktx> shnatsel: but theme would need to be ported
<shnatsel> falktx: there's no such option
<falktx> hm?
<shnatsel> falktx: there's no murrine for gtk3
<shnatsel> falktx: there's unico which is murrine with CSS syntax and cooler features
<falktx> shnatsel: yes, so it needs porting to work on gtk3
<falktx> (the us theme)
<shnatsel> falktx: porting or replacement
<falktx> shnatsel: if we port it, will it still work on gtk2?
<shnatsel> falktx: you'll have to provide 2 different GTK themes under one DE theme
<shnatsel> falktx: one for gtk2 and one for gtk3
<falktx> sucks
<shnatsel> falktx: c'est la vie
<scott-work> would finding and using an XFCE theme be easier to do?
<shnatsel> scott-work: it won't help
<scott-work> ah, okay
<shnatsel> scott-work: XFCE engine won't work for GTK3
<shnatsel> AFAIK
<shnatsel> XFCE is still GTK2, ugh
<scott-work> i wonder what engine xubuntu is using
<shnatsel> scott-work: xfce
<scott-work> heh, didn't know there was an xfce engine
<scott-work> i remember reading something about compositing by default wiht their engine though
<scott-work> didn't need metacity or something or other because of it
<shnatsel> scott-work: that's window manager
<shnatsel> scott-work: xfwm can do compositing, metacity also can and e17 rocks at it
<falktx> scott-work: the US theme is just fine for xfce
<falktx> scott-work: the problem is gtk3 apps. but that not even qtcurve handles right now
<falktx> shnatsel: gtk3 still have a hedious default theme!
<falktx> errrg
<shnatsel> falktx: if you want consistency, AFAIK you have 4 theming options:
<holstein> scott-work: let me know if i can test any UI elements folks
<shnatsel> 1) Adwaita (has a GTK2 port)
<shnatsel> 2) Ambiance
<holstein> im behind whatever you guys choose asthetically
<shnatsel> 3) Radiance
<shnatsel> 4) elementary
<falktx> yikes
<falktx> gtk3 kinda sucks
 * falktx tries to build murrine-gtk3-git
<shnatsel> also dAwaita
<falktx> I need a gtk3 app...
<shnatsel> falktx: compile widgetgallery
<falktx> shnatsel: latest murrine-gtk3 builds and install
<shnatsel> falktx: or the new twf
<falktx> ah?
<shnatsel> falktx: I guess it hardly works - it's not supported by cimi
<shnatsel> falktx: the widget factory was finally ported to gtk3
<falktx> ah, gnome3 stuff don't work at all in xfce
<falktx> even with the proper settings
<falktx> in order for gtk3 to work on non-gnome DEs, seems like 'gnome-settings-daemon' is needed
<falktx> shnatsel: do you confirm this^ ?
<shnatsel> falktx: no idea
<falktx> shnatsel: I just installed gnome-tweak-tool, but it doesn't make/change anything
<falktx> theme is just ugly as win95 was
<shnatsel> falktx: sure
<shnatsel> falktx: not sure about environments, but in GNOME it needs the settings daemon
<shnatsel> falktx: when it crashes, everything goes win95
<falktx> shnatsel: explain me please - isn't gtk3 != gnome3 ?
<falktx> then why gtk3 depends on gnome?
<shnatsel> gtk3 != gnome 3
<shnatsel> returns true
<shnatsel> IDK, GTK2 requires the settings daemon too
<falktx> yes
<falktx> it seems like gtk3 is still the same shit as gtk2 was, no offense
<shnatsel> falktx: you prefer Qt?
<falktx> as time goes by, I'm happy I choose qt for development
<falktx> yes
<falktx> shnatsel: I also like JUCE
<shnatsel> falktx: what about EFL?
<falktx> wtf is that?
<shnatsel> falktx: enlightenment foundation libraries
<shnatsel> falktx: enlightnenment WM provides smooth compiz-like animations (e.g. workspace switching) on 10-year-old PCs with no 3D
<shnatsel> falktx: and the foundation libs do the same for GUIs
<falktx> shnatsel: is it a toolkit like Qt?
<shnatsel> falktx: a toolkit like GTK+, Qt is a rather bloated framework
<falktx> that's why I love juce
<falktx> demo scrernshot - http://dspfilterscpp.googlecode.com/files/dspfiltersdemo.png
<falktx> shnatsel: I can build JUCE static in 40 secs
<falktx> and it provides full blown c++ classes, cross-desktop
<falktx> GPL too
<shnatsel> falktx: JUCE doesn't look user-friendly
<falktx> depends on what you do with it
<falktx> you can just subclass some juce stuff and add more functionality
<shnatsel> falktx: what I care about is simplicity and consistency, not more functionality
<falktx> juce it's more used for audio stuff though
<falktx> shnatsel: take it this way - juce provides you (freely) some cross-platform c++ classes to base your work with. you can then remove/add stuff as you need
<falktx> it's like building a webpage from a template
<shnatsel> falktx: yeah, I get the idea
<falktx> scott-work: hm, can't we just depend on elementary and override a couple of icons?
<scott-work> sure...is this easy to implement and maintain?
<falktx> scott-work: yes, no doubt
<falktx> I guess it's goodbye old icons!
<scott-work> then if it doesn't look like with complete shite (and i don't think that will be the case) then let's do it :)
<scott-work> the old icons don't do any good if half of the theme is broken though
<scott-work> i think cory is going to shit when he hears but nothing is getting done otherwise currently
 * holstein waves good-bye to old icons
<scott-work> lol holstein 
<holstein> scott-work: o/
<scott-work> falktx: does this mean that the icons and theme will be resolved (at least for oneiric) ?
<scott-work> shnatsel: when do you think you will have the code for the default xubuntu session ?
<shnatsel> scott-work: no idea
<shnatsel> scott-work: maybe tomorrow
<scott-work> within a week would be fine as well, i just want to make sure things are progressing so we're not at beta2 and still working through this
<falktx> scott-work: I think it's already done (by me here)
<falktx> I'm testing
<scott-work> falktx: exeptional !
<falktx> scott-work: it works!
<falktx> scott-work: I can push (which will delete all old icons)...
<scott-work> falktx: i believe we can still get the old icons from previous version of the code
<falktx> yes, indeed
 * falktx pushes
<scott-work> yay!
<falktx> scott-work: done
<falktx> want a deb?
<scott-work> falktx: not right now, but after i get home i might :)
<falktx> anyway, save the link for later
<falktx> http://kxstudio.sourceforge.net/tmp/ubuntustudio-icon-theme_0.12_all.deb
<falktx> holstein: shnatsel: wanna test ^ ?
 * falktx opens a bug
<holstein> let me check on the state of my 11.10 install of xubuntu
<shnatsel> wait. I think I did lightdm stuff already.
<holstein> falktx: let me update this install, bring it current
<scott-work> falktx: send link to myself in email, will test when i get home
<scott-work> does this just replace the icons or does it update the theme as well?
<falktx> icons only
<scott-work> roger that
 * falktx is happy to help again
<falktx> scott-work: so now we just need the final seeds, tweaks, and a xfce deco theme
<falktx> oh, and website
<scott-work> falktx: you are indespensable!
<scott-work> i don't think we will have the website ready for oneiric release though...
<holstein> yeah?
<holstein> in what way scott-work ?
<holstein> my argument is, the current one is ready for nothing
<holstein> its old, out of date and broken
<scott-work> even if knome already had a new site ready (just saying, no pressure, not trying to push ;) ) we would still need to get stuff through canonical
<scott-work> holstein: this would include a few steps
<holstein> even if the new one just looked good, i think it would be an improvement
<scott-work> 1. we would need to push new code to the bzr branch
<holstein> scott-work: you are against pushing what we have?
<scott-work> no
<holstein> we would have access to go in and tweak links for ISO's and whatnot right?
<scott-work> but if knome can replicate it and even enhance it then we're better off
<scott-work> holstein: i could go in and probably tweak what we have for the short time
<scott-work> holstein: hold on a minute and let me explain
<holstein> sure
<holstein> take your time :)
<scott-work> when the site is ready to "go live" there's still numerous steps invovled...
<scott-work> 1. we push code to bzr branch
<holstein> yeah, i bet
<holstein> i was just thinking it might be ready to go
<scott-work> 2. we file an RT ticket
<scott-work> 3. someone at canonical sets up a staging site
<scott-work> 4. IS (internal security?) reviews the code and plugins we want and if approved pushes to the site
<scott-work> 5. i am unclear what is required during staging area cycle but aftwards i expect it to get pushed to official site
<scott-work> i've already started talking to pleia2 since she helped xubuntu with their site (which apparently is still int he staging cycle)
<scott-work> but this process may take months
<scott-work> therefore allowing knome several weeks to make a more complete website isn't really much in the whole schedule
<scott-work> okay, i'm done :)
<scott-work> as long as knome keeps developing the website we should be better off without much more work
<scott-work> and i feel having someone involved who has already been down this route would benefit getting the right stuff pushed to the bzr branch
<falktx> scott-work: we can safely update the current website anytime though, right?
<scott-work> holstein: i should add that i believe knome is basically replicating what jorge did minus perhaps the flash stuff (although he might be able to reimplement this in html5?)
<scott-work> falktx: i supposedly have access to webiste now so i should be able to do simple edits and such
<falktx> ah, good
<falktx> I need to learn how to make a xfce deco theme now
<scott-work> perhaps even create new pages, although this is unproven yet, and i don't know how restricted the security is for me as an "admin" whatever title i will have
<holstein> sure, i just think we should put a date on this
<holstein> i mean, its been *years* of that site being dead
<holstein> i think it should be like in 2 weeks, whatever that is gets sent in
<holstein> otherwise we could just wait and wait for perfection
<holstein> and id like to shoot for 'better' right now, and get to 'perfect' later :)
<scott-work> holstein:  i don't expect that we will be able to control the schedule once we are filing the RT ticket and staging
<holstein> sure, and thats fine
<scott-work> however, i will follow up with knome about what schedule he feels he can devlier and the scope
<scott-work> but i would certainly be willing to wait three or four weeks to get a better and more expansive website (especially if we can't add pages)
<holstein> sure, and i guess what im saying is, im not sure if im willing
<holstein> id like to have this pre 11.10
<holstein> but, i feel like it wont take much waiting, and we'll be missing 12.04
<holstein> and that would sux
<scott-work> i'm not sure even if we already had a site and the RT ticket filed we could make 11.10 :(
<holstein> sure
<scott-work> let's ask charlie about the timeline for his experiences
<holstein> and thats the way it is
<scott-work> the drop dead date is absolutely for the LTS
<holstein> thats something i can do too
<scott-work> but i certainly don't want to wait that long though
<holstein> just pester someone daily about it
<scott-work> :)  you could
 * scott-work actually smiled when you typed that
<holstein> hehe
<holstein> will bad things happen if i install ubuntustudio-desktop?
<holstein> is that XFCE now?
<holstein> i bet i have to RTFM to see how to apply an icon theme in XFCE
<scott-work> holstein: it might depend on whether the changes have been pushed to the bzr branches and whether the packages have been rebuilt overnight
<falktx> almost forgot
<falktx> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntustudio-icon-theme/+bug/846483
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 846483 in ubuntustudio-icon-theme (Ubuntu) "icons do not play nice with XFCE" [Undecided,New]
<falktx> scott-work: holstein: please mark as "affects me"
<falktx> astraljava: can you do your magic there^ ?
<scott-work> falktx: what do you want astraljava to do?
<falktx> not sure
<falktx> heck, I don't remember how it was done last time
<falktx> damn
<scott-work> i think if you push to the bzr branch then the package updates from there (i think)
<scott-work> but i'd like someone to correct me if i'm wrong
<shnatsel> the info you need for default session is at http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/lightdm/2011-August/000046.html
<shnatsel> maybe in followup msgs too
<shnatsel> this one is enough actually
<falktx>  /usr/lib/lightdm/lightdm-set-defaults --keep-old --session=xfce || true
<falktx> ?
<shnatsel> falktx: yes, something like that
<shnatsel> falktx: you can download the package and extract he postinst and prerm
<shnatsel> falktx: That's what I did
<shnatsel> or, I thought I did
<shnatsel> because now I can't find anything like that
<shnatsel> oh.wait
<shnatsel> found it
<shnatsel> yes I did it
<shnatsel> falktx: well, it's a matter of copy-paste to you now
<shnatsel> falktx: copy-paste postinst and postrm from here: https://code.launchpad.net/~elementaryart/elementaryos/pantheon-xsession-settings
<shnatsel> and do "sed -i 's/pantheon/xfce/g' debian/postinst debian/postrm"
<scott-work> falktx: is this something you can update as well?
<falktx> irc crashed
<scott-work> falktx:  would you be able to update the lightdm package for the fix as shnatsel described?
<scott-work> [11:21] <shnatsel> falktx: well, it's a matter of copy-paste to you now [11:21] <shnatsel> falktx: copy-paste postinst and postrm from here: https://code.launchpad.net/~elementaryart/elementaryos/pantheon-xsession-settings [11:22] <shnatsel> and do "sed -i 's/pantheon/xfce/g' debian/postinst debian/postrm"
<scott-work> crap, i gotta go
<astraljava> falktx: I'll look into it tomorrow. At this point, just updating the bzr branch isn't enough, you either have to ask the devs with upload privileges to upload it, or in some rare cases, ask for FFe. Not in this one, though.
<falktx> astraljava: thanks
<astraljava> falktx: I need to update the seeds anyway, so it will be done at the same time, whenever I get ahold of a dev. Thanks for your input!
<ScottL> astraljava, when you say a "dev with upload privs" does this mean luke generally?
<holstein> missed falk :/
<holstein> ScottL: i had to fiddle around with some breakage after upgrading.. but those icons are looking nice
<holstein> and it seems like im in the position to test some pacakges now
<ScottL> holstein, i'm glad to hear that the icons are working
<ScottL> i'm glad that they look nice as well
<ScottL> i'm not too worried about changing theme and icons, i think it will be a clean break for a new beginning
<holstein> i installed a lot of the meta pacakges
<holstein> the theme stuff
<holstein> nothing is broken really
<holstein> after i upgraded, and booted back in, i remembered feeling like we were going to make it :)
<ScottL> good holstein 
<ScottL> i was getting freaked out a little because we had a good meeting, a really good meeting, and then nothing was happening after that
<ScottL> we are close to getting something worthwhile but need a few small discreet items resolved
<shnatsel> ScottL: yeah, sometimes you gotta poke people to make them do something
<ScottL> shnatsel, sometimes someone needs to poke me to poke others as well ;)
<shnatsel> ScottL: I mean, to make the desired task get higher priority :)
<ScottL> for a while it was mostly me doing any development (both planning and effecting) although many others were helping testing and answering questions in IRC
<ScottL> i'm still developing my role now that more capable others are involved
<ScottL> i'm pretty good at orginization so i think i should focus on following up behind meetings and making sure things progress
<ScottL> i imagine not unlike charlie does with xubuntu
<ScottL> i am enjoying having others involved in the next release planning though :)  makes it far more enjoyable
<ScottL> shnatsel, your help has been exceedingly helpful :)
<ScottL> and falktx is really beginning to find a stride for getting things done for ubuntu studio as well
<ScottL> holstein, has always been helping with testing and IRC
<ScottL> astraljava, has been very active lately with keeping up with the seeds and some packaging items
<ScottL> and i think everyone has had an opinion on what we should do
<ScottL> i expect this will translate into a very, very good LTS release for us
<ScottL> one for the record books, i hope
<ScottL> like people do with hardy right now
<shnatsel> ScottL: oh, btw, I've received no input from ubuntu devs by now about their build system thing, so I can write the LiveDVD seeds but I can't build and test the image
<ScottL> :( 
<ScottL> luckily we still have the remainder of this cycle and the next to resolv eit
<ScottL> resolve it
<ScottL> i'm very excited about the live dvd and the -lowlatency image getting into 12.04
<shnatsel> poke infinity to write the docs
<ScottL> shnatsel, i shall do so, he has been responsive to me before, maybe the trend will continue ;)
<shnatsel> they are also needed for elementary and Ubuntu GNOME Remox
<shnatsel> ScottL: yeah, that would be great
<ScottL> we have fires (large, uncontrolled ones) around my house and i'll be spending some time packing up some stuff during the remainder of the weekend
<ScottL> just to be prepared in case we need to evacuate
<shnatsel> ScottL: blueprint: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/foundations-o-image-build-documentation
<shnatsel> it's assigned to infinity
<ScottL> i see per.sia was the one who registered that blueprint :)
<shnatsel> looks like that way of setting default session doesn't work anymore, or I'm missing something
<shnatsel> oh well
<holstein> im going to leave 11.10 running and VNC into it :)
<knome> ScottL, have you found the svg art for the logo yet?
<holstein> the window decorations might be a little funny still
<holstein> and not 'ha-ha' funny
<holstein> i'll have to play around a bit more before i comment definitively
<knome> ScottL, hello? :)
<holstein> knome: might be in transit
<holstein> from home to work
<holstein> work to home rather...
<knome> yup :)
<knome> hihi
<holstein> o/
<knome> hello
<knome> you're the one working with the ubuntu studio xfwm theme?
<holstein> nah
<knome> heh, oki
<holstein> im more of a 'tester' ;)
<holstein> knome: i hear you are straightening up our site a bit
<holstein> the new one
<holstein> knome: thanks :)
<knome> yup
<knome> i'm actually working on it right now ;)
<knome> http://temp.knome.fi/ubuntustudio/www/
<knome> i thought the tabs would be a bit cleaner this way
<knome> and not be confused with the main navigation
<holstein> i actually forget what the old one was like
<holstein> but, that looks clean
<knome> http://myhaiku.org/
<holstein> cool
<knome> in myhaiku.org, the links are too cluttered imo
<holstein> eh, i dont mind it
<knome> well, there is still time to fix it :)
<holstein> ScottL is the one to talk about on the site
<knome> i know
<knome> that's why i was pinging him
<holstein> i say, lets do something even if its wrong
<holstein> :)
<knome> heh
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-09-11
<ScottL> knome, pong :)
<knome> ScottL, hey
<knome> ScottL, http://temp.knome.fi/ubuntustudio/www/ <- a variation/proposal for the frontpage style
<ScottL> knome, do you think the tabs could be inside the area that changes?  just to free up vertical real estate
<ScottL> it's looking good though
<ScottL> i'm always worried about vertical real estate
<knome> ScottL, yeah. with this way, we can actually just make the whole "bar" lower
<ScottL> i'll see if i can find the svg for the logo tonight
<knome> ScottL, but because it is "only" on the front page, i don't think it's TOO BAD :)
<knome> ScottL, well i found something, after which that logo is created
<knome> ScottL, you still want to keep that alignment (vs. the "new" style-like, where the circle is on the right?)
<shnatsel|insomni> ScottL: lol
<shnatsel|insomni> ScottL: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ubustulogo.svg
<shnatsel|insomni> ScottL: Wikipedia always has the rarest SVG logos ;)
<shnatsel|insomni> If I find an app that doesn't, I fix that immediately
<ScottL> knome, we also have a logo where the logo is like a copyright symbol as superscript behind "ubuntu studio"
<ScottL> that might be the one that i have
<knome> just tell me whatever you want to use, or if you want me to work on a new version
<ScottL> wow shnatsel|insomni , that's crazy.  i would have never thought about looking there Oo
<ScottL> knome, i'll find what i can tonight and get it too you either tonight or tomorrow
<knome> sure, no problem
<ScottL> knome, would you be able to use percentages to set the <div> (or whatever) widths so it will fill up a widescreen?
<knome> yes, that's the idea, it's just set to pixels right now. the layout is completely flexible already though
<ScottL> thank you again, knome , for helping us with this....it's really amazing
<knome> no problem, and thanks :)
<knome> ScottL, the other option is to add Â« Â» arrows to the left/right side of the bar, and just leave the "tabs" out.
<knome> ScottL, what do you think of that rather than the current style?
<knome> anyway, got to sleep. it's soon 5am. see you tomorrow
<ScottL> knome, wow, i get up at 6am most day and haven't stayed up till 5am in years and years and years ;)   i'm on old man, lol
<ScottL> hi Daviey :)  are you david h. by chance?
<ScottL> shnatsel|insomni, are you still working through the lightdm xubuntu session issue?
<ScottL> i seem to have trouble with that before until i realized that it doesn't work for an existing user but did work for a new user
<shnatsel|insomni> ScottL: it didn't work for me
<ScottL> when the package is installed it sets 'xubuntu' as the default for new uses and at the end of the install you create your user, which is "new" user
<ScottL> i believe i got it to work when i created additional new users for my test machine that was already installed
<shnatsel|insomni> ScottL: in my case the user is created at boot time, casper switches it
<ScottL> shnatsel|insomni, ah
<shnatsel|insomni> ScottL: LiveDC
<shnatsel|insomni> ScottL: but, it doesn't work :(
<ScottL> right, hmmmm
<shnatsel|insomni> ScottL: for some mysterious reason
<shnatsel|insomni> ScottL: I'm not sure what exactly went wrong
<shnatsel|insomni> ScottL: so I'm going to integrate our new login screen first
<shnatsel|insomni> ScottL: elementary's I mean
<shnatsel|insomni> ScottL: and then see what's wrong
<ScottL> aye
<ScottL> hi micahg 
<micahg> hi ScottL 
<shnatsel> uh, it's 06:55 here and I still don't want to sleep
<shnatsel> dammit
<shnatsel> I'm on my way to fixing the default session, just made one more step
<ScottL> shnatsel, good that you made another step :)   bad that you are up so late :(
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-09-03
<ailo> Still a bit new to debian/rules
<ailo> Seemed to work this time :P
<ailo> TheMuso: Anyway, I guess I'll talk with UKT about how to proceed. Thanks for the help
<ailo> len-dt: http://wiki.linuxaudio.org/wiki/current_audio_gear
<len-dt> ailo, from that page the [presonus] - 1818VSL (USB2) lloks like _the_ USB multi to get.
<micahg> does US not have update-manager?
<len-dt> It has so far... What is missing?
<len-dt> micahg, I thought that came with the basic Ubuntu stuff
<micahg> well, update-notifier might drop its depends on it and it's not explicitly seeded in US like it is in Xubuntu
<len-dt> micahg, I was about to try todays ISO, I can look for it, but it sounds like you are suggesting we add it to the seeds anyway
<micahg> len-dt: if the depends is dropped, yes
<len-dt> micahg, I will add it to desktop seeds. Just to be sure then.
<len-dt> This time I will make sure my copy is updated before I make any changes :)
<len-dt> Thankyou for the heads up micahg 
<micahg> sure
<ailo> len-dt: That's the one we've been talking about before. Pretty mucht the only superb multi channel usb device
<ailo> Didn't know about that page before though
<ailo> Thought it might include something new
<ailo> Haven't checked yet
<smartboyhw> Hi len-nb, how are ya?
<Len-nb> for those interested I have added a screen shot of the double icons our ISOs have.
<Len-nb> https://launchpadlibrarian.net/114599362/Screenshot_doubleicons.png
<Len-nb> hi smartboyhw 
<smartboyhw> Thanks len-nb, looking at it
<smartboyhw> Yeah, I one day got two 4.0GB volumes on my screen
<Len-nb> micahg, I have updated the desktop file of our seeds.
<Len-nb> smartboyhw, notice how they are not even the same icon.
<micahg> Len-nb: looks fine, just FYI, it happens to be a depends elsewhere, but shouldn't matter
<smartboyhw> Yeah, I know
<smartboyhw> REALLY WEIRD
<smartboyhw> Sh...
<Len-nb> micahg, I know, the manager shows on the ISO, but it could cause problems in the future
<micahg> Len-nb: no, I mean in the other seeds :)
<Len-nb> Ah.
<smartboyhw> ...
<smartboyhw> ailo: You here? I read the backlog and saw that you wrote one can ask Pete Graner for putting up a git repo. The truth is, Pete Graner is not responsible for now. Tim Gardner now is. I knew it by actually doing the process of asking:)
<ailo> smartboyhw: Thanks for the info.
<smartboyhw> NP.
<smartboyhw> Hmm, where's scott?
<len-dt> smartboyhw, long weekend?
<smartboyhw> Yes
<len-dt> smartboyhw, I think you missed my intent of the comment :)
<smartboyhw> len-dt: Why?
<len-dt> I think because this is a long weekend, Scott is doing family time
<smartboyhw> Ah
<ailo> Ok, mailed UKT about -lowlatency on Precise
<ailo> Hopefully the ball will start rolling now
<len-dt> ailo, \o/
<len-dt> ailo, I want to put just a few config changes into 12.10. I need at least your input.
<smartboyhw> Good
<ailo> len-dt: Sure
<len-dt> ailo, I want to put swappiness 10
<len-dt> ailo, I want to make the timers in the audio group.
<len-dt> hrt and rtc
<ailo> Both of those seem reasonable. Still haven't got any testing done worth mentioning :(. So, can't say how much improvement the latter will give. The former should help on machines with small RAM, right?
<len-dt> ailo, the swappiness I would be willing to do 30 or 40 , but 60 if just too much
<ailo> As long as there's no downside, I don't see a problem
<ailo> len-dt: I've had those two in mind as well
<len-dt> ailo, Ok, I haven't had any problems (even with swappiness 0, but I think 10 is more conservitive
<len-dt> I will put them in -settings then
<smartboyhw> Wait, I even got a git clone error
<smartboyhw> remote: error: refs/heads/master-next does not point to a valid object!
<smartboyhw> using the git ailo provided in his email
<len-dt> ailo, I think we will call that the blueprint default tweaks done for this cycle after that.
<ailo> len-dt: Sure
<len-dt> Thanks.
<ailo> len-dt: I don't think I will have time to finish anything for this release anyway
<len-dt> ailo, ya I was thinking we could continue to work on things for next cycle
<ailo> Better just to keep working on them, and have it ready when it's ready
<len-dt> +1
<len-dt> ailo, thankyou for attending this (informal) meeting :)
<ailo> len-dt: :)
<ailo> I feel like I've really contributed today ;)
<smartboyhw> OK back. Good progress it seems:)
<ailo> I'm still trying to figure out how much time certain things take. I'm finally realizing, certain simple tasts take days to complete, and if you have major number of them, you're easily talking months, or maybe years
<ailo> Which is why it's stupid to do some things alone
<smartboyhw> ailo: It DOES take a hell lot of time:)
<len-dt> ailo, time goes fast while coding. All of the things I did this cycle have been small things
<smartboyhw> len-dt: Sure you are handling big things now:)
<len-dt> no still small things
<smartboyhw> len-dt: You are working on a official Ubuntu flavor. Is it a small one????????
<len-dt> just about everything I do is less than 20 lines
<smartboyhw> len-dt: You are bettter than me]\
<len-dt> This is my third cycle
<len-dt> it is the first cycle I have directly contributed changes.
<len-dt> ailo, and that 20 lines includes changelog :)
<ailo> My biggest problem right now is the project I'm doing for my band. It's an all-in-one live audio application, where I pretty much reinvent the wheel for mostly everything. It's all in puredata so far, which is terrificly fast to develop, but the project size is a bit overwhelming. 
<ailo> I've often had to start from scratch on many things
<len-dt> ailo, things can be.
<len-dt> one line at a time
<ailo> Now, I'm just trying to find a way to get us out on the road as quickly as possible, something I thought I'd easily have accomplished by now
<len-dt> My wife is going through some of the same feeling with her school work
<len-dt> She looks at the size of the whole project... once I get her going, it just goes.
<ailo> I've never done anything intellectual of this size before, so I always think too positively about how much time it will take. I could probably be more efficient, but not much at this point anymore
<ailo> Following a study plan is more comforting, as you know that it is meant to be accomplishable within a given time span
<len-dt> Ya. 
<ailo> But, if you start solving a problem, you haven't yet defined, you have no idea
<ailo> It takes time just to realize what the problems actually are
<len-dt> It is nice if it can be broken into smaller chunks.
<ailo> Yea
<len-dt> each chunk is something that is "done"
<ailo> It's the only way to get through it
<len-dt> though in a big project one often has to revisit "done" parts
<ailo> I've tried to condense things into micro libraries
<len-dt> -controls is in python?
<ailo> Nah, just the puredata project
<ailo> -controls is a bit easier in some sense. But, it requires more research, less coding
<len-dt> what language is controls?
<ailo> python / gtk
<len-dt> I guess I should learn it. Is it more c or c++ like?
<ailo> Ah, sorry. I misread before
<ailo> Yea, -controls will be all in python
<ailo> python is pretty easy
<ailo> I think coming from c, it should not be too difficult
 * len-dt is getting old and finding it harder to learn new things
<len-dt> good, I do much better in c than object world
<ailo> You can use classes in python of course
<len-dt> I understand how objects work... but the nut and bolts get to me.
<len-dt> I like tk/tcl because the lines of code is really low. But it is missing too many things for what I need to do
<ailo> I haven't yet tried doing anything advanced gtk with python, like custom surfaces
<len-dt> I just want things to work well with the DE theme
<ailo> -controls is more or less gtk controls controlling simple scripts (tweaks)
<len-dt> I also want something that will work with systray
<len-dt> Ya, I want to work on on the fly switching.
<len-dt> I want it to be able to integrate well with the controls
<len-dt> I understand it is not needed for most modern machines, but there seem to be some people who are interested in it... and I do need it
<len-dt> people who do heavy graphics have expressed an interest too
<ailo> No reason not to add options, I think. You can always hide most of them in an "advanced" window, if it gets to be too much
<len-dt> I'm just letting you know what I am doing so there is no surprise :)
<len-dt> is most of your code in the US branch? or is it yet to be commited?
<ailo> len-dt: There's no current code really. I haven't started whipping it up yet. Have only gathered resources, as in how this and that detail is done. 
<ailo> I need to finish the testing scripts first
<ailo> But before that, I simply need to get done with my puredata project
<len-dt> Ok. I was mainly interested on any systray parts
<ailo> I have some snippets for both systray and indicator
<ailo> I'd like for it to work on all systems. XFCE, Unity, Gnome
<ailo> Gnome doesn't have any indicator stuff
<len-dt> systray is pretty standard
<ailo> yea
<len-dt> indicator is not something I am well versed with
<ailo> It can be made to support multiple, whatever is available
<len-dt> I want to change the icon in the systray depending on what mode is rinning
<len-dt> *running
<len-dt> The icons need to still show what the program is but also that the mode is production not desktop.
<ailo> Yea, it's nice having the icon tell you what's happening
<stochastic> hi all
<smartboyhw> len-dt: Hi mate
<len-dt> hello stochastic smartboyhw 
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-09-04
<stochastic> smartboyhw, you were trying to grab my attention a little while ago, what's up?
<ailo> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuGNOME/ReleaseNotes
<knome> uh
<ailo> knome: relax. I'm not suggesting we change to Gnome
<ailo> ;)
<knome> i'm not worried about that ;)
<knome> it's just i think there are enough remixes already
<knome> or whatever their names
<ailo> Would be strange not to have a gnome derivative?
<ailo> Which I assume this is to be
<knome> hmm, no... :P
<knome> going to bed now
<knome> good night!
<ailo> Good night
<ailo> I actually just woke up
<ailo> But a bit too early to say good morning
<len-1210> hmm, our ISO installs again. nautilus goes by its own name and has a menu bar again.
<ailo> len-1210: Yea, they decided to go back to the older version for now
<ailo> Of nautilus
<holstein> yeah, i think we should think about bailing on it
<holstein> going with thunar or whatever
<holstein> for me, keeping nautilus was a way to be more "gnome2" like
<ailo> Might be smart to skip any non-xfce apps all together
<holstein> the xubuntu one is nice
<holstein> thunar, right?
<ailo> It's the xfce file manager
<holstein> yeah... thats what i meant
<ailo> Practically the same thing
<ailo> I mean, as nautilus
<holstein> there are some things that are missing, but nautilus is removing those features
<len-1210> The problem with double icons for removable devices is only in the live session
<ailo> len-1210: Did you add the gnome-system-monitor already?
<ailo> holstein: Like what?
<len-1210> yes 
<holstein> ailo: i forget.. someone in xubuntu was complaining and i looked it up
<holstein> that "join network" menu was one
<len-1210> thunar is missing two things I need: search and sftp:
<holstein> something else key though... something with the view i though
<holstein> maybe it was search
<ailo> holstein: They dropped paned view
<holstein> whatever it was, it was valid
<ailo> holstein: But, don't think there was anything else. You meant "connect to network"
<ailo> The biggest change is just putting the whole menu inside one button
<holstein> ailo: yeah, i really missed that "connect to network" thing
<len-1210> Nautilus allows using directories on other systems
<len-1210> It is really nice for backup
<ailo> "connect to server", was what I meant
<holstein> len-1210: i think these are things that xubuntu would be interested in having
<holstein> ailo: whatever its called.. i think its slick
<len-1210> thunar can do the sftp with outside help
<holstein> len-1210: gigolo?
<len-1210> search was a separate app
<ailo> holstein: Nautilus was not dropping the "connect to server" feautre. AFAIK, only paned view
<ailo> The rest is just cosmetics
<holstein> ailo: yeah, it was folks missing that in thunar
<len-1210> holstein, yes, but with some extra package we don't have
<holstein> someone wanting nautilus running in xubuntu
<ailo> They can always install it if they want
<holstein> len-1210: i was wondering if its something that would be appreciated upstream
<len-1210> I have had some problems with thunar dying on me
<ailo> Also, there are other applications for mounting filesystems. I usually use sshfs using the terminal
<holstein> im using thunar 1.0.2
<holstein> ailo: sshfs is what gigolo would be doing right?
<holstein> kind of a gui for that and other things?
<len-1210> Ya
<holstein> after i found gigolo, i didnt "need" nautilus anymore
<holstein> that was the last thing i just didnt understand how to replace with my skill level
<ailo> So far Gnome hasn't dropped any features, other than cosmetic, AFAIK. Only been adding them
<ailo> Some gui controls are changing, becoming more minimalistixc
<holstein> nothing wrong with that
<holstein> im suprised the ubuntu-gnome edition isnt bigger already
<holstein> ailo: http://ugr.teampr0xy.net/home-1
<len-1210> the one thing missing was an about box.... so I could find out what the program was called
<holstein> i thought you might want to get in on that
<ailo> I think it's a general misconception of Gnome3, since it's not as easy to customize at first glance
<ailo> holstein: Ubuntu is getting a Gnome derivative soon
<ailo> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuGNOME/ReleaseNotes
<ailo> Based on Gnome 3.6
<holstein> i thought that was it
<holstein> i saw "them" asking about how to set up an irc channel
<holstein> i just thought it would have been right when the switch to unity happened
<ailo> Ah, didn't read more closely
<len-1210> there have been changes to the theme too
<ailo> Gnome3 would have needed more developers working on customization. The initial config is a bit crude
<len-1210> the window with focus now has a blue top bar
<len-1210> and most other highlights are blue too
<holstein> well, the initial unity at that time was on par i thought
<holstein> i think now its too little too late
<holstein> folks have either jumped to mint, or like unity
<holstein> not that i dont want to try it out, and support it
<ailo> Don't think it matters. If Gnome3, or rather Gnome4, which is not that far away, will rock a bit more, I think it will automatically create interest
<ailo> Problem is all the veteran nix people, who don't like to leave the 90's
<holstein> i think for some more tech-y folk
<holstein> i was thinking the ubuntu community though.. they are likely using unity now, and the newcomers as well
<holstein> we'll see.. i dont think gnome3 is bad either
<holstein> i like it and unity just fine now that they have "had time to bake"
<holstein> the time was unfortunate i think... and neither one are really anything im interested in running on my desktop full time i dont think
<len-1210> I guess I am one of the old guys ;)
<holstein> len-1210: hehe!
<len-1210> I was looking at fvwm again and thinking how nice it was
<ailo> I've been running Gnome3 for the past 6 months, and have no complaints
<ailo> But I can see why people don't see the benefits
<ailo> It does take a few moments to get into new features too
<len-1210> I have two problems with unity... both speed things
<len-1210> it takes a long time to change desktops (1 to 3 or what ever)
<len-1210> it takes a long time to start any app not on the left bar
<ailo> I felt Unity was slow too
<holstein> it was... its faster now.. still pokey in a couple spots
<len-1210> these are not a problem for many people
<holstein> its the general layout of both that i just dont need
<len-1210> I was talking as of 12.04
<len-1210> My wife has it and it is fine fore her, she uses three app
<len-1210> one at a time
<ailo> Both Unity and Gnome3 are trying to integrate the web into the desktop, but so far, I think both are not doing the best job at it
<len-1210> our ISO is still missing two metas
<ailo> Need to get moving. Taking a bus to a neighbour city today. Will probably start a "network technician" education there shortly
<ailo> Later guys
<len-1210> G'luck
<holstein> ailo: o/
<len-dt> micahg, no need to answer just now. I am wondering if the new metas will make it for this cycle or should I put the apps back into the graphics meta for now? And if so, would it hurt to leave the apps in both places...
<len-dt> micahg, I forgot to add. ubuntustudio-default-settings has two bug fixes (again) There is a third to do, but I am waiting for information.
<micahg> len-dt: ok, unless the fixes are critical for beta 1, I'll upload after that, as for the metas, just ask cjwatson if he can do it after beta 1, I seem to be missing something WRT the metas somehow
<len-dt> micahg, not critical
<len-dt> Our ISO seems to install. 
<len-dt> ailo, beta 1 fails. It does not install. Did we set device auto mounting on purpose or can we deselect it?
<len-dt> or can we set it up different in live from install?
<smartboyhw> Hello all
<smartboyhw> ailo, len-dt: What are your comments on Ubuntu GNOME remix? Also I didn't test the build, my download speed is bad:(
<smartboyhw> I mean the Beta 1:)
<smartboyhw> ailo: do you know if there is a Quantal lowlatency kernel git like in your email?
<len-dt> smartboyhw, beta 1 does not install right. As soon as partman formats the partition our de mounts it then ubiquity gets upset and says it won't install to a mounted partition.
<len-dt> I was able to work around that though
<smartboyhw> OK, I can't test it, strangely cdimage has a very poor internet connection
<scott-work> hi len-dt, did you have have a good camping trip?
<len-dt> Aye
<len-dt> scott-work, how are you?
<scott-work> ailo: maybe your email (and leanne's poke) might help move andy forward on the procedures
<scott-work> len-dt: i believe i'm doing okay
<smartboyhw> Hi scott-work
<len-dt> scott-work, our ISO doesn't install without fidling
<scott-work> hello smartboyhw 
<scott-work> "fidling"?  hmmmm, that's a little concerning, no?
<len-dt> Very.
<smartboyhw> scott-work: I wonder: Can I be mod of the Ubuntu Studio section of Ubuntu Forums?
<len-dt> if doing the "use whole disk" install it fails
<scott-work> smartboyhw: i don't have control of that, i'm not actually sure who does really. sto.chastic is a mod though, you might ping him
<smartboyhw> Oh OK, since jussi is not helping out now, and he (or she) told me to ask you
<scott-work> len-dt: is that something vanilla is experiencing as well or just localized to ubuntu studio
<scott-work> smartboyhw: there is also a "ubuntu forums council", i believe, that might have the authority to set mods
<len-dt> The DE auto mounts the newly created partition and ubiquity won't install on it
<scott-work> smartboyhw: but you can always google search how to be a mod in ubuntu forums
<smartboyhw> Sure, but then I think I need your approval
<len-dt> So if we set no auto mount it should fix it.
<len-dt> however, we had automount set last rel and no problem
<scott-work> smartboyhw: i think jussi.'s default answer these days is "see Scott" for everything. even the things i don't do or know about :P
<smartboyhw> ;P
<smartboyhw> So then how? I don't even seee stochastic on the forums these days
<scott-work> len-dt: i wonder if something changed elsewhere that might be affecting this
<scott-work> smartboyhw: you can send sto.chastic an email from his launchpad account
<smartboyhw> I'm answering a few questions at least
<scott-work> len-dt: meaning, it worked last release, vanilla made a change but also changed the automount setting, and now we are having issues
<len-dt> xfce4.10/thunar may be more agressive about looking for new partitions to mount or ubiquity may not be fast enough grabbing it.
<scott-work> len-dt: perhaps asking colin might shed some light or at least get a point of contact for who might know about it
<len-dt> I will be talking to him anyway so I will ask. does he hang out on an irc channel ? which one should I look at?
<len-dt> scott-work, I need to help my wife out the door to school back in a bit.
<smartboyhw> Oh ok
<scott-work> len-dt: i would say #ubuntu-devel is the most active that i have seen
<stochastic> hi smartboyhw 
<smartboyhw> Hi stochastic
<smartboyhw> I wanna be mod at the Ubuntu Studio section of Ubuntu Forums,
<falktx> smartboyhw: afaik you need to be very active within that forum section first
<smartboyhw> Sure, I'm getting to it:)
 * falktx says 'hi all'!
<smartboyhw> I did make some post
<smartboyhw> Oh sure here comes falktx who wants to topple scott-work's throne:(
<stochastic> yes, that's certainly true, very active. I think I was at around 2000+ posts before I was given moderator status there
<smartboyhw> Wow, ok
<stochastic> the Ubuntu Studio section is the only section (or was at the time) where there was other moderators than the standard forum moderators
<smartboyhw> Not now
<stochastic> and it's a process that requires the Ubuntuforums staff's approval, not really the Ubuntu Studio team's approval
<stochastic> jussi was also a moderator there, not sure if he's still very active there - I know my work there has died off significantly
<smartboyhw> Garoff
<stochastic> is there any particular reason why you need moderator status in that forum?
<smartboyhw> Since you guys have not been active there, and I wanna help:)
<smartboyhw> Er, do I get a reply?
<smartboyhw> ...stochastic, len-dt, scott-work: Then will tmr's image have a clean build?
<len-dt> clean?
<smartboyhw> I mean no bugs
<len-dt> We will have bugs till after beta one. we are missing most of the photo and publishing applications
<smartboyhw> Yep, but then can we ensure we can actually install?
<len-dt> A bit early to tell
<smartboyhw> Well, two days remaining
<len-dt> Scool starts today for one of my sons... I have other things to do too
<jussi> no bugs is an unattainable attribute... (the cake is a lie)
<len-dt> being able to install is pretty big
<smartboyhw> HAHAHA
<smartboyhw> Well I think being able to install is the prerequisite
<len-dt> scott-work, I have in the past had thunar try to mount fresh partitions too. It seems to be a race thing where it depends on how fast ubiquity mounts the partition.
<len-dt> Most of the time it was ok. I suspect changes in ubiquity have made it a bit slower at mounting things.
<len-dt> Is the automount setting a big thing? it may be best to just turn it off by default.
<len-dt> one could argue that having something mount itself in the middle of audio work is not something we want anyway.
<len-dt> Or... can we have it turned off in live and on after install?
<smartboyhw> len-dt: On the last question, I think we should give full potential and features of the OS to the guys who just wanna try it.
<scott-work> hi falktx  :)
<smartboyhw> len-dt is not answering:(
<scott-work> smartboyhw: i believe we (len really) is still triaging the problem
<smartboyhw> scott-work: Len is our golden boy isn't he?:)
<scott-work> to the image (or clean build)
<scott-work> len-dt: are we including thunar still on the image? i seem to recall that we were moving completely to nautilus, is that still the goal?
<scott-work> smartboyhw: "On the last question, I think we should give full potential and features of the OS to the guys who just wanna try it." i'm not i understand what point you are trying to make
<smartboyhw> Well I mean that we should not just omit a feature in live and enable it after install
<len-dt> scott-work, smartboyhw it would not omit it, just change the setting, however the ubiquity devs want to fix ubiquity. So I will let them. It seems thunar keeps moving where its config is kept from release to release.
<smartboyhw> len-dt: OK YEAH!
<shnatsel> ubiquity talk?
<shnatsel> !logs
<ubottu> Official channel logs can be found at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/ . LoCo channels are now logged there too; for older LoCo channel logs, see http://logs.ubuntu-eu.org/freenode/
<len-dt> cj watson would like to have things so that if any flavour decides to enable automount it will still install.
<smartboyhw> Looking at it now
<shnatsel> AFAIK it can be disabled in one of Ubiquity's functions
<smartboyhw> OK
<shnatsel> there's a dedicated setting for locking the desktop during installation - disabling user switching, etc etc
<shnatsel> but I'm not entirely sure when the function is called
<shnatsel> you can disable the automount in ubiquity_dm binary but it's not clear how to bring it back
<shnatsel> at least I haven't figured out how to revert a similar change when it's done from ubiquity_dm
<shnatsel> if you do, please tell me
<shnatsel> the locking funtion I've been talking about is lockdown_environment(self)  in ubiquity/frontend/gtk_ui.py
<holstein> smartboyhw: o/
<smartboyhw> \o holstein
<smartboyhw> !ubuntustudio-dev is <alias> ubuntustudio-devel
<scott-work> len-dt:  would you be able to compile a loose list of things changed recently that we can ask testers to confirm?
<scott-work> len-dt: what i am thinking is basing this off of the completed items in the blueprints and noting either in email or in the release notes (started by skaet) for the milestone images
<scott-work> this would also afford us a list for the final release notes when released
<scott-work> and by the way len-dt, thank you VERY MUCH for your efforts in this cycle in particular, we certainly would not have made nearly the same progress without your efforts
<len-dt> scott-work, sorry zoned out a bit. watching -release to see if ubiquity is going to get fixed or I should make a change to -settings so we can at least install...
<len-dt> scott-work, -default-settings has been changed to no automounting of removable storage devices.
<len-dt> This will allow our ISO to install. The user can set auto mount from settings once they install.
<scott-work> len-dt: that sounds like a good, prudent plan
<scott-work> at least we can get testing done currently
<len-dt> scott-work, I have wondered in the past if it is a good idea to have something automount while recording...
 * len-dt thinks pluggin something in while recording is not smart
<scott-work> hehe, you are probably right ;)
<len-dt> Ok, it's in. Looks like it made it before respin.
<scott-work> len-dt: sweet! who uploaded it for you to the repos?
<scott-work> oh. i see the bug report, looks like colin did
<scott-work> len-dt: would the high resolution timer adjustment help ralf with MIDI jitter?
<len-dt> scott-work, I don't know. I have yet to be able to reproduce any problems I have had.
<len-dt> I would think Ralph would have tried it though. In any case Ralph does not use USB MIDI ports, he has something more stable either PCI or FW
<ailo> scott-work: Yea, seems like the ball is rolling now
<ailo> len-dt: I didn't know about the auto mount part. I'm pretty oblivious to what happens during installation, from a non user perspective. 
<ailo> I really have a nack to make a mess on mail lists
<ailo> or, rather, knack for making..
<len-dt> ailo, auto mount is now off by default.
<ailo> len-dt: The disk can't be mounted while partitioning, right? But, the installer should know this, no?
<ailo> I suppose this only happens if installing from desktop, with auto mount on?
<ailo> And what if you manually mount the disk, and the install?
<len-dt> At some point ubiquity will work with automount enabled. But disabled is, in my mind better anyway as it uses thunar and everything else uses nauilus
<ailo> Only usb devices are usually auto mounted, from my experience
<len-dt> If you manually mount, ubiquity will ask to dismount and then it can continue. With auto mount it goes in circles
<ailo> Weird
<ailo> len-dt: But, then the auto mount is mounting in a different way, right?
<len-dt> It seems anyting not mounted by default is thought of as removable
<len-dt> different mountpoint
<len-dt> xfce4.10 moves the file where thunar keeps it's configs
<len-dt> this breaks ubiquity
<len-dt>  http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/ucgi/~cjwatson/blosxom/ubuntu/2008-04-12-desktop-automount-pain.html
<len-dt> ailo, see the link for more info
<ailo> I see
<ailo> Well, I'm going to bed. Hopefully I passed the test today, and am able to start studying for different certificates soon
<ailo> Individual study pace, and freedom of choice what certificates are concerned, paid by the government
<ailo> I'm going Linux as much as possible, of course
<ailo> The test was a bit funny. The computer part was mostly about msdos
<ailo> Like a bad joke
<ailo> Anyway, gn
<smartboyhw> len-dt: Good morning
<len-dt> aaaalllllrrrrreeeaaadddyyyy?????
<smartboyhw> len-dt: Come on it's 7:35 AM. How is the ubiquity going for Beta 1?
<smartboyhw> At least in here:)
<len-dt> If we get a respin it should be okish
<smartboyhw> :)
<len-dt> probably will install from boot ok but not from live session till the respin
<smartboyhw> OK
<len-dt> still missing two metas, but we are waiting till after beta1 to fix that.
<smartboyhw> Anyway gotcha go to school now:)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-09-05
<len-dt> It looks like we are getting a new ISO roll just now.
<len-dt> New ISOs for testing are available. Anyone who has some idea of why or how we get double removable device icons and how we can fix it :)
<len-dt> The other known problem is that most photography and publishing apps are missing. 
<ailo> len-dt: Perhaps both Nautilus and Thinar working at the same time?
<len-dt> However, it should install from boot or from live
<len-dt> ailo, could be... but doesn't make sense. I will have to look closely at the ps x output...
<len-dt> The last of our performance tweaks for now are in...
<smartboyhw> \o len-dt ailo-w falktx
<smartboyhw> Hmm strange I got a VERT FAST connection today:)
<smartboyhw> Bug 1046206 help!
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1046206 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "Ubuntu Studio ubiquity 12.10 lost the whole background" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1046206
<smartboyhw> Hello scott-work
<smartboyhw> scott-work: I do wonder: What is the kernel team? Can I join?
<scott-work> good morning smartboyhw 
<scott-work> smartboyhw: the kernel team is to help with the maintenance of the lowlatency kernel
<scott-work> while i admire your enthusiasm, joining teams is not a competitive activity, there are purposes for teams
<smartboyhw> HAHAHA
<smartboyhw> scott-work: I tested the new build (due to sudden boost in network speed)
<scott-work> i am presuming that len's fix worked for the installation
<smartboyhw> Yes it did
<smartboyhw> BUt then...
<smartboyhw> Bug 1046206
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1046206 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "Ubuntu Studio ubiquity 12.10 lost the whole background" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1046206
<smartboyhw> scott-woork: That's a Xubuntu problem i THINK
<smartboyhw> scott-work, 
<smartboyhw> So?
<knome> "xubuntu problem"
<knome> it's possibly a problem on how ubiquity launches xfce, not a xubuntu problem
<smartboyhw> knome: OK then, THanks
<smartboyhw> Hi ailo-w
<smartboyhw> ailo-w: I do wanna ask: How to compile a quantal lowlatency kernel using Ubuntu kernel git?
<knome> smartboyhw, that's what happends when you try to joing too many teams and follow too many things
<knome> -d
<smartboyhw> Not joining team, just a hobby:)
<knome> smartboyhw, i was referring to the bug before.
<smartboyhw> knome: Why? I tested the Ubuntu Studio build and got the bug
<knome> smartboyhw, yes, but you referred to it as "xubuntu bug"
<smartboyhw> I think it is
<knome> how can it be a xubuntu bug if it appears in ubuntu studio?
<smartboyhw> Er, I think if Ubuntu Studio can't launch it then Xubuntu can't also
<knome> you should check xubuntu then
<smartboyhw> Well OK
<smartboyhw> knome: Sorry, my internet is slow again, so no testing
<smartboyhw> For xubuntu
<ailo-w> smartboyhw: There's a lot of docs here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kernel/
<ailo-w> Some of it outdated
<ailo-w> smartboyhw: You might want to read some docs about git as well
<smartboyhw> Well alright, I don't see it I think, or at least people recommend to use vanilla kernel I wanna use ubuntu kernel
<smartboyhw> I've done some cloning in git, don't worry
<smartboyhw> Also upload
<ailo-w> smartboyhw: This is probably the lowlatency source for quantal git://kernel.ubuntu.com/apw/ubuntu-quantal-lowlatency.git
<smartboyhw> Thanks ailo
<ailo-w> smartboyhw: There's more to git than just cloning
<smartboyhw> I know I did push and pulls to
<smartboyhw> *too
<smartboyhw> I did develop software you know:)
<ailo-w> smartboyhw: Then you must know everything ;)
<smartboyhw> Sure, I do AI software LOL that's how I got my cloak
<len-dt>  smartboyhw when you install did you do so from the boot screen?
<smartboyhw> len-dt: Yes
<len-dt> There is no background.
<smartboyhw> len-dt: Yes
<smartboyhw> ailo-w: HELP I don't know how to build it
<len-dt> That is not really a bug, just kind of ugly
<smartboyhw> fakeroot debian/rules binary-headers binary-generic?
<smartboyhw> len-dt: It DOES have one before
<len-dt> didn't in 11.10 or 12.04 as I recall
<smartboyhw> At least I have a background...
<len-dt> Well ya I have one too.... it's getting to be too long :P
<smartboyhw> !?
<len-dt> another way of saying I'm getting old...
<smartboyhw> ailo-w: I don't really know how to build the kernel
<smartboyhw> len-dt: OK, you're old, I'm young:)
<len-dt> young whipper snapper
<smartboyhw> len-dt: Thanks for the comment:(
<len-dt> Is all in jest... I started playing in bands about your age
<len-dt> in 1974 as a drummer
<smartboyhw> Oh alright, I only know how to study:( Hong Kong is full of education pressure:(
<len-dt> asia in general is like that. most of my work life I worked with asians. mostly from china, but also HK and Brunei (not shure of the spelling)
<smartboyhw> Correct on the spelling
<smartboyhw> len-dt: You don't understand Hong Kong students
<len-dt> Vancouver has a lot of asian people
<len-dt> In my sons school there were a number of asian students who where not only A students but had 100% score in _everything_
<smartboyhw> len-dt: It is normally true
<smartboyhw> But then I don't get 100%, only once per year, I get maybe like above 90%
<holstein> smartboyhw: morning!
<smartboyhw> morning holstein
<smartboyhw> night actually
<holstein> smartboyhw: someone might have already asked, but when you send out the "please test" emails, could you link the QA testing info?
<smartboyhw> !?
<smartboyhw> What info?
<holstein> thats the only way it gets "officially" recorded and counts towards our releases
<smartboyhw> holstein: What do you mean
<holstein> smartboyhw: i mean, we need a certain amount of tests
<holstein> test cases
<holstein> officially recorded
<holstein> and when you ask for testers, you could just link that as well.. then we can "get credit for it"
<ailo-w> smartboyhw: Try binary-lowlatency
<smartboyhw> Doesn't work ailo-w
<ailo-w> I usually do another build method
<holstein> smartboyhw: i think these are the current ones, http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/milestones/232/builds
<smartboyhw> Yes there ARE testcases there already
<holstein> though i always suggest checkin the IRC so they dont waste time on an old build that the test will be invalid
<holstein> smartboyhw: correct.. so, if you can link those in the email
<smartboyhw> Alright then holstein
<holstein> i would probably link them http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/
<smartboyhw> I did have the link there
<ailo-w> smartboyhw: Try this
<ailo-w> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/BuildOldLowlatency
<ailo-w> Skip to the part where it says make oldconfig
<ailo-w> Just be sure to copy a config file to the root directory first
<smartboyhw> OK
<ailo-w> You can find the current one at /boot/config-* (the one you want to use)
<ailo-w> Time to go..
<holstein> smartboyhw: i see what is confusing
<smartboyhw> holstein: ?
<holstein> smartboyhw: the iso should be downloaded from where you get linked from the QA site
<smartboyhw> Well alright
<holstein> its not just any iso.. its got to be the one in the QA report
<smartboyhw> OK OK OK
<holstein> no worries.. i appreciate the shout out!
<holstein> smartboyhw: yeah, thats more clear i think
<smartboyhw> Ok thanks
<holstein> thanks for sending the add-on
<holstein> otherwise, they might just download it and test it
<holstein> which is fine.. but we dont get "credit"
<holstein> if testing is happening, it might as well help us for the release
<smartboyhw> OK holstein, I have a testing meeting to attend, ping you later
<holstein> smartboyhw: enjoy!
<smartboyhw> :)
<smartboyhw> Yo ailo, thanks, building the kernel now:)
<smartboyhw> len-dt: Still here?
<smartboyhw> holstein: Mind testing the ISO Images for Beta 1?
<holstein> smartboyhw: i dont mind, but i wont have time today
<holstein> smartboyhw: im out, and i wont be home til late
<smartboyhw> holstein: Tmr is the deadline
<holstein> smartboyhw: yup... i wont be around a machine i can do that on though unfortunately
<smartboyhw> ...
<smartboyhw> ailo: Can you help them?
<smartboyhw> *then
<ailo> smartboyhw: Installing on VirtualBox is not the best way to test images
<smartboyhw> ailo: I do now, sadly I only have 1 computer
<smartboyhw> I'm 14 don't forget
<ailo> smartboyhw: The reason why I'm telling you is to inform you
<smartboyhw> ailo: ?
<ailo> smartboyhw: Being 14 means you are very touchy every time someone informs you of something
<smartboyhw> Yes I am
<holstein> yeah... its just a "heads up"
<smartboyhw> But then what's the problem with virtualbox?
<holstein> the higher-ups like to see tests on metal
<smartboyhw> I know, I can't
<holstein> the problem is, compatibility.... and real world application
<holstein> i have emulated the 64bit in 32bit Vbox though
<ailo> Some things might not be supported on VirtualBox. Also, you may be able to install on VB, but not on your machine
<holstein> i have both test machines now
<holstein> so i can do actual metal tests
<smartboyhw> I can't stand testing maybe a fail image on my real notebook you know
<holstein> i used to have a test hard drive
<smartboyhw> Ah I suddenly think of something: Stupid me
<smartboyhw> I can put it on a USB drive!
<holstein> i used to actually just unplug the hard drive in my production box.. but you can install to USB and just be cautious of where grub goes
<ailo> Happens sometimes. Easily fixed with grub-install
<smartboyhw> Back from meeting
<ailo> I'm downloading both images, but might not have time to install both
<smartboyhw> ailo: Test the 32-bit:)
<smartboyhw> scott-work, holstein, ailo: Why did the guys confused up that Ubuntu Studio is LTS->LTS?
<scott-work> smartboyhw: i do not understand the question
<smartboyhw> xnox said that Ubuntu Studio goes from LTS (12.04) to 14.04
<smartboyhw> When I said no, then he said that he confused it with Mythbuntu
<smartboyhw> !?
<micahg> yeah, Mythbuntu is LTS only
<smartboyhw> Not us right?
<scott-work> smartboyhw: if we were LTS -> LTS only then you would not be testing 12.10, no?
<len-dt> Missed. I wanted to ask smartboyhw if he had any scrollbars on the slide show. I haven't seen them for a long time now on my tests.
<len-dt> scott-work, 32 bit ISO is tested. I would suggest the bugs mentioned in 64bit testing would apply to 32 bit ISO and vise-versa
<knome> len-dt, they're talking about respins ;)
<scott-work> heh, knome beat me to it
<scott-work> :P
<scott-work> len-dt: do you feel that another respin is required at this point for testing purposes?
<len-dt> Thats ok. At least we know our bug is fixed and we can install
<len-dt> Any respin would be to test things added upstream.
<scott-work> okay, then i will tell skaet that we do not need a respin then
<len-dt> The bugs I see are not "urgent" and will not get fixed for beta1 anyway.
<len-dt> scott-work, with regard to the background bug while installing. I wonder if there is a way to "blank" the background before starting ubiquity rather than running a program make a background...
<scott-work> len-dt: hmmmm, i do not know about hat at all
<scott-work> s/hat/that
<len-dt> I am not sure if there is a -live-meta or not
<len-dt> or if this could be done from -live-settings
<len-dt> I think blanking could be done from a command line
<len-dt> scott-work, I haven't seen slide show scrollbars for a long time so I have marked it off as done on the blue prints.
<len-dt> scott-work, Re: GUI for color stuff. Gnome-control-center does this for vanilla. I have tried adding that app, but the color part still doesn't work. Talking to a photographer who has use the gnome-color-manager, he says that when the colorimeter is plugged in the GUI shows up by itself.
<len-dt> It looks like the gnome-control-center color capplet is just a container for the various gnome-color-manager functions.
<len-dt> I think I will add the raw gnome-color-manager applets to the xfce settings manager with tool tips to help explain when their use would be appropriate
<len-dt> I will do this by making US desktop files...
<len-dt> If I had a colorimeter (few hundreds dollars to buy, $20 a day to rent) I could probably make a standalone container that would work with xfce-settings-manager
<scott-work> len-dt: i think that is a good bet for the slide show work tast
<scott-work> len-dt: i wish i could offer some constructive advise for the color/gnome-control stuff
<knome> hmm
<len-dt> knome, ? you have a comment?
<knome> wondering about bug #719338
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 719338 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "[Xubuntu, Studio?, Lubuntu?] Disable automount" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/719338
<knome> i heard you fixed it
<knome> or, disabled automounting
<knome> any insight on that?
<len-dt> xfce4.10 changes where thunar keeps it's config for auto mounting
<len-dt> the ubiquity dev(s) have not had time to change the code to go with it.
<knome> len-dt, so you simply changed the thunar setting?
<len-dt> Yes
<knome> and you suggest that xubuntu should do that as well?
<len-dt> It works well for us as having auto stuff during recording is not a great idea
<len-dt> There is still a bug open for ubiquity, but I don't know when it will be fixed. 
<len-dt> see: http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/ucgi/~cjwatson/blosxom/ubuntu/2008-04-12-desktop-automount-pain.html
<len-dt> knome, you could ask cfwatson on the eta of a ubiquity fix.
<len-dt> (#ubuntu-release I think)
<knome> xnox asked me how we should proceed with this
<knome> i'll talk with him when he gets back
<len-dt> Ya it was cjwatson I was talking to. but xnox did someof it too
<len-dt> The user can enable this after the install if needed/wanted
<knome> i'd like to have it enabled on desktop, but disabled on live
<knome> i wonder if that's possible..
<len-dt> knome, possible yes... dirty though.
<knome> i'll ask xnox
<knome> :)
<knome> thanks
<len-dt> no problem
<len-dt> knome do you guys have double icons for removable devices too?
<knome> yeah..
<len-dt> Seems to be everywhere.
<len-dt> I hear vanilla has it too
<len-dt> I can get it to go away for a session, but logout/in brings it back :P
<knome> heh
<knome> if you can, xubuntu could do help with beta tests
<len-dt> I will see if I can... I take it you are waiting for a fix/respin first though?
<knome> that's done
<len-dt> knome, does xubuntu have a -live-settings and a -default-settings?
<knome> nope
<len-dt> That would be one way to have automount on one and not the other
<knome> yeah
<knome> it's possible that we'll disable it altogether
<len-dt> It does seem to be a bug that just keeps coming back
<len-dt> gotta run.
<knome> see you
<scott-work> knome: this isn't might to slight or marginalize you or xubuntu or the xubuntu team, and i hope you don't take it that way:
<scott-work> knome: but i'm not a huge fan of thunar for a few reasons
<scott-work> one being no tabs and the developer apparently saying there will never be tabs
<scott-work> he may have a very good reason for this, but i think people want tabs tough
<scott-work> though
<knome> well, i don't want tabs, as it keeps the interface clean :)
<knome> and yeah, no offense taken really
<knome> if you want a filemanager with tabs, install one
<scott-work> hehe, exactly :)
<scott-work> and of course, we aren't bound to xfce apps either so it makes it a little more open for us, perhaps
<scott-work> although i do agree with the cleaner interface though
<knome> we aren't bound to them either, that's even written on our strategy doc
<knome> (which got published btw)
<scott-work> congratulations!
<knome> but i don't see any reason to drop thunar atm
<knome> you coming to UDS btw?
<scott-work> i guess i might be unfairly comparing thunar to nautilus when nautilus gets a lot of love from ubuntu proper to make sure it works well
<knome> thunar has been working quite well actualyl
<scott-work> hehe, i'm one to complain because i'm running xubuntu on my laptop and my two video machines :P
<scott-work> only my music box is running ubuntu studio
<knome> ;)
<TheMuso> For unity if thats what you mean.
<TheMuso> whoops
<smartboyhw> len-dt: Awake or?
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-09-06
<ailo> len-dt: knome: My motive for not keeping nautilus is simply the maintenance problem
<ailo> It's not just a gui program
<ailo> And right now, it seems like we don't have 100% check on what is running and what not
<ailo> As it seems Thunar is running in the background
<ailo> I'd tell Scott, but he's not here
<ailo> It would just make things simpler inheriting working Xubuntu settings
<ailo> Besides, people can install nautilus if they want
<len-dt> ailo, do you feel we are having problems with nautilus?
<len-dt> I personally have had more problems with thunar
<len-dt> Crashes and freezes.
<ailo> len-dt: I personally don't use XFCE at all
<ailo> What I personally do is not what I'm talking about
<len-dt> I understand, but I do use US and have had problems with thunar
<len-dt> Most of the time it works ok, but nautilus seems to most 100%
<len-dt> s/most/more
<ailo> Again, it's not just a gui program
<len-dt> When we first switched to nautilus, I also wondered why, but have had a lot less problems with it
<ailo> Did you try finding anyu bug reports on that?
<len-dt> OK, it is more than a GUI
<len-dt> what problem is it giving us?
<ailo> I haven't been using the thunar gui much. When I'm on US, I usually only use the terminal
<ailo> And I like to use the gnome-terminal over the XFCE default
<ailo> len-dt: Remember when opening documents on the desktop were opening thunar instead of nautilus?
<len-dt> Are these things we should change for next cycle?
<ailo> len-dt: And Thunar is still running, isn't it?
<ailo> I mean folders, not documents
<len-dt> not any more. Have you tried the 12.10 ISO? desktop icons open nautilus
<ailo> len-dt: I know, not anymore. But, Thunar, is it still running?
<len-dt> yes
<len-dt> but there has to be something acting as a desktop
<ailo> len-dt: So, in my view, we don't have 100% check on what Thunar is doing, and what Nautilus doing. The choice for having Nautilus is only for the gui interface, nothing else
<len-dt> nautilus is not running all the time
<ailo> len-dt: And since there is more to both programs, I think if we should keep nautilus, it would make sense to have 100% understanding of what they do
<len-dt> Ya. The dual device icons is not thunar or nautilus
<len-dt> it is there in xubuntu and vanilla
<ailo> Right now it feels a bit hacky
<len-dt> it doesn't seem hacky from a user POV
<len-dt> its like, do I open a URL with firefox or orpera///
<ailo> No, that's completely different
<ailo> That's my point
<ailo> My point is the maintenance problem of customizing XFCE to be more like Gnome, and the extra work that goes into that, just to get a couple of gui features
<ailo> I'd rather let the user worry about the desktop choice
<ailo> It's just extra work
<len-dt> Ok... I think I am not getting what you are saying. The extra work? add a package and change one config?
<ailo> Well, Thunar is still running, so it's not been replaced
<len-dt> Thunar does one job, nautilus does another
<ailo> Sure about that?
<len-dt> because thunar is there, the user has the choice to swicth from nautilus.
<len-dt> I'm not seeing a problem at this point.
<ailo> It would probably make more sense using Gnome3, but replacing the panel with the XFCE panel, since that is what this whole change was about
<ailo> And perhaps when nautilus finally changes to FILE, everyone, including Ubuntu will make a fork to keep the ol Nautilus intact
<len-dt> I don't know if I would use the xfce pannel then
<len-dt> I personally don't have a huge problem with "file". Just learning something new. everything is still there
<len-dt> it is styled after chromium
<ailo> Not only File. It's a design choice for other apps too
<ailo> Within the GNOME desktop
<ailo> And it's just the menu that lends it's design idea from Chrome
<len-dt> Lets use FVWM
<len-dt> Ok, I don't think there will be too many takers
<len-dt> ailo, it was not my choice to include nautilus. I do like it better than thunar, though thunar could be made to have the same features it is missing from nautilus. (I think xubuntu does actually)
<len-dt> And it may work better if it is not sharing files with nautilus (drag and drop from one to the other)
<len-dt> ailo, I get the idea you want to redo our desktop environment from scratch pretty much. That could be a lot of work and with only two of us doing it would mean other more important things got left behind. (workflow specific things)
<ailo> len-dt: I have not said anything about wanting to create a desktop from scratch
<ailo> I'm saying the opposite. Stick to one desktop
<ailo> Some things I say include some irony
<len-dt> Ok.
<len-dt> We already, with the apps we include pull in lots of libs... I think KDE is the only one we don't almost.
<ailo> Since Ubuntu Studio is about multimedia creation, I don't think we should be focusing on what file manager we use
<len-dt> But even setting that aside. from a user POV we want the best experience. That was why we changed from the xfce task manager
<ailo> Even if that of course is a part of the workflow
<len-dt> File management is a part of just about any workflow. 
<ailo> Thunar is a file manager
<len-dt> Does it do the job just as well as nautilus? for that matter is nautilus the best one?
<len-dt> Someone(s) felt that nautilus did a better job... started faster etc.
<len-dt> The plus side of getting rid of nautilus would be some size.
<len-dt> I would assume thunar is being actively developed and maybe some of the things people disliked about it have been taken care of.
<len-dt> ailo, I will install gvfs-backends and a search utility and use thunar for a week.
<ailo> len-dt: My point is not only about Thunar, but about the general strategy for maintaining the Ubuntu Studio desktop. Since there are so few of us, it might make sense to do as little customization as possible. And I'm saying this to create the discussion.
<ailo> And hope that certain parties will not just keep arguing for something, because they were a part of making a choice about it
<len-dt> I think it will have to be one app/customization at a time.
<ailo> The file manager is a very integrated part of the desktop. Nautilus brings in a lot of libs
<len-dt> certain parties not being around right now... Like I said I am using US as my only DE right now, so If I switch to thunar. I can speak for it.
<len-dt> I don't think that will change much this cycle. Next though.
<len-dt> What would you like to do about system manager?
<len-dt> Should we go back to the xfce-task-manger?
<ailo> len-dt: Right now I'm more inclined to use XFCE default applications, and let the user decide on customization. I'm saying this more for creating the discussion than to make decisions about it
<ailo> So, no hurry on my account
<ailo> To make changes, I mean
<len-dt> Ok, I think that is a good argument. The maintaining part. There are only two of us
<ailo> I'm not really doing much maintaining right now. More of development, not counting -lowlatency, which it seems I will be maintaining
<len-dt> I will be going back to work soon and so my free time and energy will drop.
<len-dt> ailo, there seem to be only two doing much at all
<len-dt> There are people doing and giving suggestions, for which I am grateful, but there is not much else.
<ailo> Well, there are more, if you count people who help us
<ailo> friendly devs in the neighborhood
<len-dt> what helps xubuntu helps us for sure
<len-dt> Those who keep up the media apps is a big help too.
<smartboyhw> Er ailo, len-dt: The build is ready YEAH!
<ailo-w> smartboyhw: kernel build?
<smartboyhw> NO I mean 12.10 Beta 1
<smartboyhw> Marked ready so we don't need to test it ailo-w
<ailo-w> len-dt tested it yesterday
<smartboyhw> Yep so it is marked ready
<smartboyhw> We are the only one:)(
<smartboyhw> ailo-w: Do you know where astraljava has been?
<ailo> smartboyhw: I don't keep track of peoples wereabouts. If people have the time and will, they'll be around. Otherwise not
<smartboyhw> Well I haven't seen him for 2 WEEKS really weird
<knome> smartboyhw, he's busy.
<smartboyhw> Just been wondering..Haven't seen him for a while and wated to say hi
<len-dt> ailo, I wonder how much "load" a midi port puts on an IRQ
<smartboyhw> Yo len-dt
<len-dt> smartboyhw, good morn
<smartboyhw> Good evening...9 {M here
<smartboyhw> *PM
<len-dt> :) Thas why I said it...
<len-dt> ailo, what I mean is I wonder if heavy midi use affects audio on the same card
<ailo-w> len-dt: midi is pretty thin in data amount. I've been developing a sysex controller for my synth module in puredata, making it possible to automate the synth-module with the live app I'm coding
<ailo-w> I could use it to create some heavy load
<ailo-w> Actually, it's not so hard to do
<ailo-w> Just do a midi dump
<ailo-w> Of something
<len-dt> That is my thought too. I was just looking at my IRQ priority and seeing:
<len-dt>  766  FF     85 125   - [irq/20-snd_ens1]
<len-dt>   796  FF     85 125   - [irq/21-snd_ice1]
<len-dt> both my MIDI and my audio are the same priority
<ailo-w> I wonder what the maximum data rate is
<len-dt> I haven't had any problems even at low latency... but I don't do much midi
<len-dt> 31k
<ailo-w> 31K/? ?
<smartboyhw> LOL
<len-dt> or am I off by 10?
<ailo-w> Actually, what is k?
<smartboyhw> One thousand?
<smartboyhw> 1k = 1000
<ailo-w> smartboyhw: I know, it usually means that. But, in this instance it seems strange
<smartboyhw> Yes it does
<len-dt> the bit rate is 31k (31250) but the computer only services it at 3k the byte rate
<ailo-w> len-dt: So, 31k bits in which amount of time?
<ailo-w> second?
<len-dt> In the case of midi it may be half that because each midi event may have two or the bytes which would be loaded to the uart at once
<len-dt> per second
<len-dt> That is why the maxfreq for hpet is suggested at about 3k
<len-dt> status bytes are single, but a note on is two byes
<ailo-w> sysex is a bit larger than that
<len-dt> I think the uart can take up to 16 bytes at a time in its on chip buffer
<len-dt> sysex would be done 8 bytes at a time
<ailo-w> 8 bits, you mean?
<len-dt> bytes
<len-dt> The driver would load 8 bytes from the memory buffer to the uart buffer then the uart chip would do the bit stream with no help from the system
<ailo-w> Ok, so the device may be able to do 8 bytes a time, but the sysex packets are in bytes = 8 bits at a time
<len-dt> Assuming the uart started idle, the driver would put 16 bytes in. the if the "low water mark" was 8 the uart would give an interupt at 8
<len-dt> Yes but I am thinking of how often does the cpu need to deal with the uart.
<smartboyhw> Good mail holstein:)
<ailo-w> sysex messages are usually up to 16 bytes
<ailo-w> or more
<holstein> smartboyhw: o/
<smartboyhw> holstein: \o Good reply on the testing mail
<holstein> its just a misunderstanding
<smartboyhw> Yes it is
<holstein> like there would be a 24 hour period where one of us could make sure the kernel regression baked into the past kernel he is talking about could be fixed
<smartboyhw> OK
<holstein> that user is just a little frustrated, and rightly so
<holstein> ubuntustudio is not something i would recommend for a laptop anyway
<smartboyhw> I did do a late call
<len-dt> ailo, yup, so a sysex is actually less system stress than two notes close together but not at the same time.
<ailo-w> laptops are fine, just that most of them are crap
<holstein> smartboyhw: its public information
<smartboyhw> Sorry I am using a laptop to do all the testing and chatting and everything
<holstein> smartboyhw: thats fine, but the main generic kernel would be better for battery lifle likely
<holstein> life*
<smartboyhw> holstein: My notebook doesn't run on a battery, it's just plugged that's all
<ailo-w> We still need to test -lowlatency for power usage. I'll be doing that shortly
<ailo-w> Would be nice with some hard numbers on that
<smartboyhw> ailo-w: YEAH
<holstein> i bet its not as bad as the RT one was
<holstein> thats probably what the user on the mailing list is talking about
<smartboyhw> holstein: +1
<holstein> 10.04 with the 9.10 kernel 
<ailo-w> holstein: maybe, maybe not. Not sure what does it. The tickrate is quite high on -lowlatency
<smartboyhw> Well 12.10 here
<ailo-w> holstein: The -rt kernel in the debian repo has a tickless timer
<holstein> ailo-w: the lowlatency should be better for sure
<holstein> still, shoulc be worse than the generic.. but maybe not
<smartboyhw> YEAH
<holstein> we'll know soon \o/
<smartboyhw> \o/
<ailo-w> holstein: I'm not that sure. The difference between -rt and -lowlatency is in the PREEMPT model. And I'm not sure it's that different really
<smartboyhw> I want -lowlatency to be better than -generic
<holstein> ailo-w: cool.. we'll find out
<holstein> smartboyhw: it doesnt need to be better at power management
<smartboyhw> Well I want it to be better, not just at power
<holstein> smartboyhw: power managerment is not the point of it
<smartboyhw> I know, I want it to be better at ALL things
<holstein> its better for getting lower latency... better for RT
<holstein> i just want the generic kernel to work
<holstein> we wont have to maintain it
<smartboyhw> Yep, if -generic had rt we don't need the -lowlatency kernel
<ailo-w> len-dt: I still don't get why sysex would be less stressful, if the messages are 20 bytes and more. What makes sysex messages be sent in 8 bytes a time, and not notes?
<ailo-w> smartboyhw: -lowlatency is -generic
<ailo-w> smartboyhw: Just reconfigured
<smartboyhw> ailo-w: Yes
<smartboyhw> So? I wish one day there is NO need for a -lowlatency
<smartboyhw> Yay scott-work
<smartboyhw> scott-work: I like your blog:)
<scott-work> good morning smartboyhw. thank you
<smartboyhw> :)
<smartboyhw> Well so the builds are marked ready:)
<smartboyhw> And strangely scott-work: I heard Xubuntu is not going to HAVE a beta 1
<smartboyhw> Due to test fails
<holstein> they are an active team... im sure they will be allowed some time
<smartboyhw> scott-work or anybody: Write an article on http://fullcirclemagazine.org/ about ubuntu studio LOL :)
<smartboyhw> ailo quit because he's going home....
<smartboyhw> scott-work: Update your wiki a bit:)
<smartboyhw> len-dt: You don't have a Ubuntu wiki page do you?
<len-dt> nope... 
<smartboyhw> Create one and get ubuntu membership:)
<len-dt> huh?
<smartboyhw> Well, write a wiki page, let people write testimonials, then apply for Ubuntu Membership:)
<len-dt> membership (in anything) is not all it's cracked up to be
<smartboyhw> I know, just create one so that people can know you, take me for instance
<len-dt> Nobody will "know" me from online anything.
<smartboyhw> Er what? Even scott has one:( I have one too:)
<len-dt> That was not my point.
<smartboyhw> !?
<len-dt> What someone writes in a blog or in an about is what they want the world to see or what they see themselves as. These are both inaccurate views.
<smartboyhw> len-dt: You can't have people writing YOUR wiki do you?
<micahg> smartboyhw: the more tests the better on ISOs, 1 test is minimalist
<smartboyhw> micahg: YEah alright
<len-dt> ailo, I think the direction the MIDI is flowing would make a difference. The cpu would get more interupts for incoming midi with sysexe stuff because every time the cpu empties the uart and a new byte comes the cpu gets hit. With outgoing it can fill the uart up to 16 bytes at a time.
<ailo> len-dt: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-September/001875.html
<ailo> scott-work: ^
<smartboyhw> oH ok
<smartboyhw> scott-work: Do you think we should add a upgrade testcase for Ubuntu Studio? There isn't one
<len-dt> smartboyhw, I don't have time for yet more tests at this point.
<smartboyhw> Yep I know, that's sad
<len-dt> What mailing list was the message from stilllearnin@thettpost.com on?
<smartboyhw> ubuntustudio-user
<len-dt> Ah, that would be why I missed it. There is a trick to getting monitor setups to remain from one boot to the next.
<smartboyhw> Oh OK
<scott-work> smartboyhw: i think most people's answer to an "upgrade test" would be yes. however, we need to think what we are providing
<scott-work> smartboyhw: we aren't providing just another desktop, these, ideally, would be machine (or tools) used for creation
<smartboyhw> Uh huh
<scott-work> i know that i don't like to update my machine more than i have to, i believe holstein feels equally (possibly more) strongly
<scott-work> so my feeling is that LTS -> LTS is a good upgrade path (mostly *)
<scott-work> but i do not think we should dedicate ourselves to a "cycle -> cycle" upgrade testing
<scott-work> if others think that it _is_ important and want to commit to the testing, then i say go for it
<scott-work> but for me, it isn't as much value-add as other tasks we could perform
<smartboyhw> OK
<scott-work> len-dt: yes, i still have multi-monitor trouble and i've tried tens of different ways to make it permanent
<len-dt> scott-work, X and xfce are just too smart... 
<smartboyhw> len-dt: Why? LOL
<len-dt> I was able to have boot to boot permanence _if_ the monitors were always plugged in and turned on prior to booting.
<len-dt> As soon as that was not the case I had to start all over.
<len-dt> Both xfce and gnome have this problem. They need to have two defaults. One for one display and another for two (or more displays). It is not trivial coding I don't think. I don't know how big the user base is for more than one display... but it is obvious to me there are no (or not many) developers who do.
<smartboyhw> scott-work: You updated the release notes yet?:)
<smartboyhw> scott-work: I think skaet is asking you to do it too:)
<smartboyhw> Bye all
<ailo> gn smartboyhw 
<len-dt> scott-work, my days of free time are rapidly coming to an end. I don't know if I will have the time to go through the -settings thing.
<len-dt> knome, there doesn't seem to be a place to test xubuntu
<scott-work> can anyone help me with filling out the release notes for beta1 ?
<scott-work> len-dt: i understand about your free time
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-09-07
<TheMuso> /c
<smartboyhw> Hello falktx
<falktx> hi
<smartboyhw> ailo-w: Hi mate. How are you comfortable with 12.10?
<ailo-w> smartboyhw: I don't use Ubuntu much these days
<ailo-w> smartboyhw: I saw you postponed your work on documentation. Does that mean you are not working on it anymore?
<smartboyhw> ailo-w: No, just that I will postpone it a bit, maybe next week
<ailo-w> smartboyhw: postpone is only required if you are not to finish before next release
<smartboyhw> Oops sorry new to blueprints
<smartboyhw> I will change it...
<ailo-w> No big deal. But it's good to see where we are at with items.
<smartboyhw> OK changing
<smartboyhw> ailo-w: Changed:)
<ailo-w> len-dt: When you have time, I'd like to talk to you about some developer tasks. I'm working on the developer documentation, and there are some things I have no idea about
<ailo-w> len-dt: I'm going to try putting down everything we do, and howtos for them. Saves a lot of time for everyone, if we can just point to the docs when someone has questions
<ailo-w> len-dt: On second thought, I'll send you an email with some questions later.
<ailo-w> Then you can just respond whenever you have time
<smartboyhw> len-dt is not awake today is he?
<len-dt> ailo, smartboyhw good morning.
<smartboyhw> GM le
<smartboyhw> len-dt
<len-dt> ailo, found another hint
<len-dt> "Another tip, if you have to use a slot that shares IRQs, then you have
<len-dt> to raise the priority of all the soft interrupt threads that share
<len-dt> the IRQ with the soundcard, otherwise you will get a lot of xruns."
<len-dt> It seems on new MB it is getting harder to find slots with their own irq.
<len-dt> PCI slots that is.
<ailo-w> I guess often shared with usb ports
<ailo-w> So many of them these days
<ailo-w> And what else
<len-dt> USB (which means some of the MB stuff) and PCIe slots too.
<len-dt> irq 16 seems to get shared with a lot of stuff on all my machines
<len-dt> must be for legacy purposes
<ailo-w> I have a bit of a problem with irq 16 on my most recent MB
<smartboyhw> ailo-w: I asked a wrong question: (applies to len-dt too) what is your view towards Ubuntu Studio 12.10 Beta 1
<len-dt> I mean a lot of these MB have 100 irqs and a lot not being used.
<ailo-w> The internal card is on irq 16. The device becomes unavaible after some time. An error message about IRQ, and a beep sound
<len-dt> 12.10 has two big holes (three now that ubuntu has split off their settings)
<len-dt> we are missing two metas and the systray is not there
<smartboyhw> Actually talking about Beta 1 
<smartboyhw> I saw some Ubuntu Studio links have Ubuntu Studio icons and some with info icons
<ailo-w> len-dt: I haven't at all looked at how to upload changes to seeds, and other things
<len-dt> Ok, and? I picked what made sense to me
<ailo-w> len-dt: That is something I was meaning to ask of you, to write down some of the things you do
<ailo-w> len-dt: The Ubuntu devs are making things easy for us on the settings thing. We just need to add ubuntu-default-settings, and we're fine
<len-dt> Changing seeds is easy. they are just text files. Putting in new metas requires more info than Micah has. He asked me to talk to Cjwatson after B1
<ailo-w> len-dt: Would you be so kind as to write down the procedure for managing seeds in an email to me? I'll add it to the developer wiki shortly
<len-dt> If I can't get it done soon, I will stuff them into the graphic meta (where they were)
<len-dt> I will see what I can do. Just address it to the dev list?
<ailo-w> len-dt: Or just to me, personally
<smartboyhw> I do wonder: Since it is beta should we add it to http://ubuntustudio.org/download/ ?
<len-dt> No
<smartboyhw> Oh alright:)
<len-dt> not ready for the wild.
<len-dt> BRB
<smartboyhw> BRB
<smartboyhw> Yay it's our project leader scott-work!
<ailo-w> scott-work: I was fiddling with developer documentation today, and was wondering if you could take a look. To begin with, you could help me see if I got the entire list of Ubuntu Studio Launchpad teams and projects listed at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/DeveloperDocumentation#UbuntuStudio_at_Launchpad
<ailo-w> scott-work: I'd like to sort those out, and see how we can use them to our best benefit, as we try getting more people involved in the future
<smartboyhw> OK, so the non-active ones are the open ones, and the active ones are the closed ones LOL
<ailo-w> Going home now
<smartboyhw> scott-work: I think I can help update the website
<smartboyhw> Len-nb: You're on your notebook now
<ailo> smartboyhw: There are enough people working on the website already, I think. What is it that you would like to change on it?
<smartboyhw> OH yeah alright:
<smartboyhw> :(
<smartboyhw> I don't actually KNOW we have a Ubuntu Studio testing mail list ailo
<smartboyhw> Is there a channel too?:)
<Len-nb> ailo,  I have put a generic kernel on my notebook to test battery use differences. I am guessing I will have to do a discharge cycle to reset things.
<ailo> Len-nb: There's a phoronix test you could try
<Len-nb> I did notice that I get a lot less battery life than I used to
<ailo> Or did I spell it wrong, let me check..
<smartboyhw> phoenix You mean?
<ailo> Len-nb: phoronix-test-suite
<Len-nb> I used to get almost 4 hr (3.5 anyway) now is 1.5
<smartboyhw> Len-nb: So you mean that generic kernel uses a lot more battery
<smartboyhw> Not good
<Len-nb> no low latency uses more
<Len-nb> I want to see if generic uses less
<smartboyhw> OH ok
<ailo> Len-nb: The test suite includes a power usage test
<smartboyhw> SO you mean lowlatency dropped from 4 to 1.5?
<ailo> Len-nb: I'm adding some of it to Ubuntu Studio testing
<Len-nb> ok
<Len-nb> I had thought it was a cheap battery in my cheap netbook, but there is at least one other user who has complained.
<ailo> Len-nb: I was just looking at how to operate the phoronix-test-suite. To list tests, you do: phoronix-test-suit list-tests
<ailo> But, I'm not getting a list right now
<ailo> I think it's trying to fetch them from some url
<ailo> Anyway, I was most interested in the power usage test, as I wasn't able to find any other at the time
<ailo> smartboyhw: The ubuntustudio-testing mail list is not active right now, but it is meant that we use it to post testing results, and anything else test related that we would like to document and save
<smartboyhw> Oh yeah
<ailo> smartboyhw: We are lacking documentation and work tasks for new developers. This, and that many developers have become inactive, or that some tasks were never completed is the reason we have so many inactive teams and other resources
<smartboyhw> Oh alright
<ailo> I'm going to sort that out during the months to come
<smartboyhw> ailo: I support you! :)
<ailo> And hopefully it will be easier for new developers to dive into development directly
<smartboyhw> ailo: I agree. Not many devs except you and Len-nb huh?
<ailo> smartboyhw: I don't think we need that many more core devs all the time, but if we would like to get someone helping us fast on something, even for a short time, it helps having docs ready. Also, I don't think we are making it easy for inexperienced people who want to learn and get into things step by step
<smartboyhw> Yes, Ubuntu Studio is NOT for beginners 
<ailo> smartboyhw: I think any skill level is fine, but the work you do needs to fit your skill level
<ailo> Also, not everyone can just jump in and get dev rights. Even if there are enough skills. 
<smartboyhw> Oh alright. I mean using Ubuntu Studio is not mainly for beginners to touch but contributing can be for beginners
<smartboyhw> ailo: I have enough skills, I know C++, and I did some coding too LOL but then noone can easily jump in of course:)
<ailo> The important thing I believe is that there is an easy way to find out what needs to be done, and how one can help
<smartboyhw> Yes!
<ailo> smartboyhw: Have you done any graphic programming? GTK?
<smartboyhw> Done a bit UI
<smartboyhw> But mainly in C++ I do command line ones
<smartboyhw> I will show you an example
<ailo> smartboyhw: If you like, you could help Len-nb with his workflow panel idea. 
<smartboyhw> workflow panel...Too complicated for me:)
<smartboyhw> I do UI at https://github.com/thesii/speechcontrol
<smartboyhw> It's an Artificial Intelligence software (not an ad)
<scott-work> ailo: will you be around for another thirty minutes?  i am busy at work until probably then
<smartboyhw> scott-work is very busy today:)
<ailo> scott-work: Yeah, I'm around. But, you can always send me an email, if you think of something, anything.
<ailo> smartboyhw: Looks fun.
<ailo> smartboyhw: And how are your python skills?
<smartboyhw> python: 0
<smartboyhw> HAHAHA
<smartboyhw> I only learnt C++ and Visual Basic
<smartboyhw> And that's enough for a 14-year-old. I learn a new language every year
<ailo> Should be easy for you to learn python, if you can get by with the C languages
<smartboyhw> :)
<ailo> smartboyhw: python + GTK is not that difficult. There are some nice tutorials around
<smartboyhw> OK I will start reading
<ailo> smartboyhw: http://python-gtk-3-tutorial.readthedocs.org/en/latest/index.html
<smartboyhw> Thanks ailo. But then I am still more interested in testing:)
<ailo> smartboyhw: Maybe you could help out with organizing testing procedures then. It's a bit specific for Ubuntu Studio. We don't need to test all the same things as other distros do
<len-dt> scott-work, I have put the fix in as suggested for bug 1039792, I would like to see a more detailed look at this be done for next cycle if you can add it to your notes for next cycle blue prints
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1039792 in ubuntu-meta (Ubuntu) "[needs-packaging] [MIR] ubuntu-default-settings" [Wishlist,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1039792
<smartboyhw> ailo: Good. Especially I am in the Testcase Admins Team:)
<smartboyhw> ailo: I'm thinking when I should apply to be Ubuntu membe
<smartboyhw> *member
<ailo> Team membership is not the most important. It's more important that we get good work done
<ailo> I have not even tried to find out about Ubuntu membership, for instance
<smartboyhw> Yeah
<smartboyhw> ailo: Oh
<ailo> I'm going to try join Debian Multimedia team later on, cause I want to help with some packaging and bug management
<ailo> And that is the only reason
<smartboyhw> OK
<ailo> I see it this way. There are things that could be a lot better on Debian based distros. Some things are best done with software development, some with Debian development, some with Debian derived development(such as Ubuntu Studio). Add to that, documentation that is clear and true on forums that are popular, such as the Ubuntu Studio wiki
<ailo> And when you find a problem, you try to find the best place to solve it
<ailo> So, whether I'm a team member or not, will not help me solve any problems, if I haven't identified one, and decided where I should solve it
<ailo> And that is all we are doing here. Solving problems
<smartboyhw> solve quizzes:)
<ailo> I think many more would probably want to help, and would be able to, but if there's not clear information for those on how to do that, a lot of energy will just be wasted
<ailo> And that's why I'd like to sort out developer documentation 
<len-dt> +1
<ailo> Enough speech. bbl
<smartboyhw> +1
<smartboyhw> I think I should save this up and sent it to whose who want to help ubuntu studio
<ailo> smartboyhw: That's why I'm focused on the dev docs. The idea is that it will contain all the info people will need
<smartboyhw> Oh OK
<smartboyhw> ailo: I want to join the debian multimedia team too, but then I got a problem with one of its requirements;(
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-09-08
<smartboyhw> len-dt: Awake?
<len-dt> Ja, just not watching the irc too close.
<smartboyhw> HAHAHA
<smartboyhw> ailo: ping I wanna ask are you also responsible for the quantal lowlatency kernels
<smartboyhw> Is len-dt going to camp today?:)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-09-09
<smartboyhw> len-dt: What are you working on now?
<len-dt> I have been doing some recording.
<smartboyhw> I have been building an ISO
<len-dt> Sounds fun.
<smartboyhw> Yeah the Ubuntu GNOME remix
<len-dt> I'm thinking to leave that one alone till at least first release... maybe first LTS to look at it.
<smartboyhw> HAHAHA
<len-dt> I only have so much time to spend playing with distro building and priorities are studio then xubuntu.
<smartboyhw> len-dt: My priority is studio then ubuntu then xubuntu
<len-dt> My first thought was to give holstein's line "ubuntustudio _is_ ubuntu" :) But I know what you mean.
<smartboyhw> len-dt: Yes.:)
<smartboyhw> Yes "ubuntustudio _is_  Ubuntu with multimedia creation apps:)
<smartboyhw> And xfce
<smartboyhw> And xubuntu base
<len-dt> Vanilla is Ubuntu with unity on top
<smartboyhw> len-dt: LOL
<len-dt> The DE is actually a very small part of what Ubuntu is.
<smartboyhw> Yes. 
<len-dt> But very visible.
<smartboyhw> LOL
<micahg> smartboyhw: the DE is part of the Ubuntu desktop product
<len-dt> micahg, I have sent an email to Colin about our metas
<micahg> len-dt: ok, I'll take a look at the diff when he uploads it so I can do stuff like this in thefuture
<micahg> I just seem to be missing something
<len-dt> It does seem odd that it doesn't just work. The graphics meta changed just fine.
<smartboyhw> Am I wrong but then isn't there something known as Ubuntu Core which has no DE micahg?
<micahg> smartboyhw: I didn't say anything about Ubuntu core, there are many difference projects under the umbrella of the Ubuntu project
<micahg> err...products under the umbrella
<len-dt> I don't think core is meant to be used on it's own though smartboyhw 
<len-dt> :)
<smartboyhw> i don't know!!??!?
<smartboyhw> Anyway what I know is that Ubuntu is the Ubuntu kernel with Unity that's all
<len-dt> Without the repos with all the extra software, Ubuntu would not be where it is.
<len-dt> It is all a part of it
<micahg> no, that's the Ubuntu desktop product which a lot of people think of as Ubuntu
<smartboyhw> Now I'm confused
<micahg> Ubuntu is a project, this project has archives, lots of products are hosted in this archive
<len-dt> smartboyhw, you might think of it like Lego. Someone could build a Lego truck. Is that truck Lego? or is it the parts the truck is made of?
<smartboyhw> Lego??? I don't play lego, len-dt:(
 * len-dt sometimes plays with Lego.
<len-dt> But you do know what it is. ?
<smartboyhw> Yes
<smartboyhw> len-dt: How old are you to play Lego???
<len-dt> I have a 6 year old. I get to play with his.
<smartboyhw> Ah alright
<len-dt> No worries, I was not trying to make you any younger than you are.
<smartboyhw> LOL
<ailo> Anyone experienced quantal pulseaudio crashing now and then?
<ailo> I need to test on other HW, cause it might HW related for me. PA crashes every now and then, and reinitializes volumes. My apps get stuck and need tp get
<ailo> ..be restarted
<ailo> Well, actually. Jack is fine all the time, only PA is having problems
<ailo> smartboyhw: Ubuntu without the desktop is in the package ubuntu-minimal
<falktx> hey
<falktx> I'm wondering again - why is debian multimedia packages built with debug mode on?
<ailo> falktx: I would ask Debian Multimedia Team, if the packages aren't built differently on Ubuntu
<falktx> afaik they are not
<falktx> I just saw some recent syncs
<ailo> Interesting note. Wonder why they do that
<falktx> is anyone here on their mailing list?
<ailo> falktx: I am. I could ask them
<ailo> falktx: I'm actually going to join that team later on. You ever thought about doing that?
<falktx> I did once, but then I saw the limitations
<ailo> falktx: limititations?
<falktx> and all the hard work just for simple tasks
<falktx> ailo: yes, if a piece of code doens't have a very clear license, they refuse to package it
<falktx> I remember the audacious case
<falktx> a plugin code was removed from the source tarball because it didn't have any header-comments
<falktx> I though that was just crazy
<ailo> To me that just sounds like making sure packages adhere to the Debian policy
<falktx> yeah, that is the thing - I don't agree with that policy
<falktx> linuxsampler exception rule still kills me
<falktx> Ubuntu used to have java in the repos, it displayed the license when installing
<falktx> why can't that be done too?
<falktx> there are a lot of things that I don't agree with Debian, I guess that's the main reason why I haven't joined the team
<ailo> You can either join Debian, and help improve it, or start your own Debian
<ailo> You can't change something, if you are looking in from the outside
<falktx> well, I started my separate project, as you know
<ailo> falktx: Are you sure linux-sampler could not be packaged for Debian? There is a non-free repo after all
<ailo> falktx: You mean, your PPA's
<ailo> Yea, they are filling a purpose in deed
<falktx> ailo: considering there is worst licenses then LS, I'm sure it could
<falktx> *than
<ailo> I've seen a bug report about packaging it, and no one was claiming it couldn't be done
<ailo> On the report, that is
<falktx> I think debian is just losing people's attention, not sure...
<falktx> I know alession works in d-multimedia, but is there anyone else?
<ailo> falktx: Anyone else from where? there are people there. And I don't think anyone is loosing attention to the foundation for anything Debian based
<ailo> falktx: there's no reason why you can't do things on many levels you know
<falktx> well, it's just my impression
<ailo> There are reasons for the restrictions that Debian has. If they would change them, many would leave Debian
<ailo> And you can build upon it, just like Ubuntu does, and Mint does off on Ubuntu
<ailo> Like you do with your PPA's. Similar to Mint
<ailo> So, I don't really see the problem
<falktx> I see your point
<ailo> You can't have a library of software representing free and open source software, if it's not being free and open source.
<ailo> And surely, there are lot's of grey zones
<ailo> Debian vanilla is 100% free. Even the kernel.
<ailo> But they have a non-free repo
<falktx> well, I think there's some firmware things that are not truly free
<falktx> but that's being picky... :)
<falktx> still, back to my main though - why do they have to build things in debug mode
<ailo> falktx: Even in Debian vanilla? They took out all the firmware that wasn't and put them in different packages
<falktx> ailo: could you ask on their ML ?
<ailo> falktx: I'll do that
<falktx> ailo: I mean the kernel, I read that at phoronix once. whatever that is a trust-worthy source... heh...
<ailo> falktx: I don't know the specifics, but to my knowledge, all the non-free parts of the kernel were repackaged, and put into the non-free repo, so you can add them after installation
<ailo> wifi drivers, etc
<ailo> It's a pain, cause the installation freezes if you have a non-free wifi
<falktx> ok
<ailo> Ubuntu being less restrictive, just keeps it all in the kernel as is
<falktx> I see, I'm just too used to Ubuntu I guess
<falktx> it makes things too easy :)
<ailo> Debian is in some way not a distro. More of a library
<ailo> falktx: Oh, let me ask you where you saw about the debug being built in. I want to know what I'm asking for
<ailo> bbs
<ailo> Actually, let me check some packages sources :)
<falktx> ailo: it's all in the new lv2 libs
<falktx> lv2-dev, serd, sord, sratom, lilv, suil
<falktx> also qtractor, patchage
<falktx> I noticed it in the recent packages
<falktx> also muse I think
<falktx> better to give an example
<falktx> here we go
<falktx> ailo: http://anonscm.debian.org/gitweb/?p=pkg-multimedia/qtractor.git;a=summary
<falktx> ^that is the qtractor debian-git page
<falktx> look at debian/rules file:
<falktx> http://anonscm.debian.org/gitweb/?p=pkg-multimedia/qtractor.git;a=blob;f=debian/rules;hb=HEAD
<falktx> dh_auto_configure -- --enable-debug ...
<falktx> that is just awful for qtractor
<falktx> it gets into an unusable state (prints a lot of debug stuff even when processing, as it's being built for debug purposes)
<falktx> splitting the debug symbols into a separate package won't do anything, as debug is already activated
<falktx> and this is just 1 small example
<falktx> if all qtractor's libs are built in debug (lv2 libs, libsamplerate, libsndfile, etc), then it gets even worse
<falktx> ailo: do you think this information is enough for a post?
<falktx> you can post the direct irc chat if you want
<ailo> falktx: Thanks. More than enough. I'll start with that, and see what they say
<smartboyhw> Oops what did I miss
<ailo> smartboyhw: You can always check the irc logs
<ailo> at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/
<smartboyhw> Bye no
<smartboyhw> *now
<ailo> falktx: I was just googling at first, just to see if there was already something discussed about this. So, this might answer half the question: http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=684035
<ubottu> Debian bug 684035 in jackd1 "jackd1: Please provide debug symbols" [Normal,Open]
<falktx> wtf??
<falktx> jack itself with debug
<falktx> .... what???
<falktx> ailo: do they not think about how sluggish apps are by default in debug?
<falktx> ailo: anyway, please let me know when you post something. and thanks in advance
<ailo> falktx: I guess it would be best if debug was always in a separate package, right?
<falktx> I'll try to speak with Rui from qtractor when I see them (about this)
<falktx> ailo: separate package - yes. using debug mode in all packages and split symbols - no
<falktx> splitting debug symbols do nothing
<falktx> the app was not optiized for runtime, it will be slow
<falktx> *optimized
<falktx> audio denormals will most likely happen with this scenario, increasing cpu even more
<falktx> I see the point on using debug mode for testing releases, but not for final ones
<ailo> yea. Would seem like the best procedure would still be keeping separate debug packages, no matter which release, so you only need to maintain one version of something
<ailo> I've never done a package like that, so I don't know what extra work goes into it
<falktx> I guess it comes down to what is most important - app optimization and less cpu usage, or better debug/crash info
<falktx> considering that most users never report any kind of bugs, well...
<ailo> falktx: Message sent. I'll let you know when and if i get an answer
<falktx> ailo: ok, thanks!
<smartboyhw> Oh yo I saw the mail ailo:)
<holstein> wonder what that was about
<smartboyhw> holstein: Look at the channel backlog:)
<holstein> "im trying to boot into a new operating system without rebootin"
<holstein> smartboyhw: oh, im aware of what was said.. i just dont understand.. i assume im missing something else
<smartboyhw> OK
<len-dt> ailo, does ubuntu-minimal come as a ISO? Is that the new pulse version? (PA-2.1)
<len-dt> holstein, I'm not really sure either. Maybe he wants to boot into a virtual box of some sort.
<smartboyhw> Hmm
<smartboyhw> len-dt: But he's trying to install it on a SSD
<len-dt> I don't think that makes that much difference as to where it is. Just the same as running wine, The directories that make the fake win part could be anywhere
<len-dt> smartboyhw, is there a page that describes the various ISOs?
<smartboyhw> len-dt: What do you mean?
<len-dt> smartboyhw, I go to http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ and there is a list of flavours. Is there a page that has a description for all these flavours? or do I have to find each one separately
<len-dt> There are a lot of them that are not even ISOs
<smartboyhw> len-dt: I don't know. Tell me what do ya want
<len-dt> I want a ubuntu ISO that has no GUI
<smartboyhw> len-dt: Try Ubuntu Core
<len-dt> It is not an ISO
<smartboyhw> Why do you need one without gui?
<len-dt> I want to try something on a minimal machine
<smartboyhw> Hmm
<smartboyhw> IDK then.
<len-dt> No problem. I was going to use server and not install any services :-) but I would really like something not server oriented.
<smartboyhw> :)
<falktx> len-dt: you want the net-boot I assume?
<falktx> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/netboot/quantal/ ?
<len-dt> falktx, I'll look
<len-dt> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Installation/MinimalCD looks like what I want.
<falktx> len-dt: yep, that's the same
<falktx> minimal = netboot
<len-dt> Ya, that was what I thought I got there from the netboot wiki.
<len-dt> But the minimal page provides info the way I want to do things.
<len-dt> falktx, I want to make an CLI audio machine and also try netjack on an older machine.
<ailo> len-dt: If you do an expert install, you can choose to not install any of the metas (or tasks). What you get then is ubuntu-minimal.
<ailo> That which is below all the derivatives
<ailo> len-dt: You can do that with different installers. Alternate, net-install
<len-dt> ailo, I have a mini.iso (40M) that has an alt installer
<len-dt> ya from net-install
<ailo> Or maybe just a normal install does that too, with those
<ailo> I don't remember. I always do expert install
<len-dt> No matter, I have something to play with. I'll start with that.
<len-dt> ailo, what version of PA did you have problems with?
<ailo> len-dt: hmm, actually not 2.1. 2.0-6
<len-dt> Might be an idea to try 2.1
<ailo> I'm on Debian Sid at the moment. It's not updating much right now, which I think has to do with Wheezy being released soon
<ailo> I should do some tests on Quantal
<len-dt> When next I boot quantal I will exercise PA as hard as I can.
<ailo> len-dt: Just put something playing for a long period. Like Totem
<ailo> It can take hours
<len-dt> Ya. 2.1 is available from https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-audio-dev/+archive
<ailo> If it happens on Quantal, I will try to see what happens
<holstein> len-dt: yeah... still, that would be "easy" to just point the virtualization software to the downloaded iso
<smartboyhw> holstein: +1
<holstein> i wouldnt think someone wanting to do that would need to ask how
 * holstein shrugs
<len-dt> holstein, that would be my guess too.
<smartboyhw> How on earth can you install without reboot? That is a step after installation using the live dvd
<len-dt> smartboyhw, on a virtual run the reboot is only in the virtual box not the surrounding OS
<smartboyhw> len-dt: I know
<len-dt> I think part of the problem is that the user was not explaining what they wanted to do very well.
<smartboyhw> But then it IS a step, and I don't think Ubuntu Studio is really not suitable in a VM
<len-dt> I tend to be the same... My brain thinks everyone already knows what I  am talking about.
<holstein> len-dt: yeah, maybe a language barrier
<smartboyhw> I think he just wants to install it without having a reboot after installation
<len-dt> Some of that may be possible... no new kernel for example. But it leads to odd bugs. I have found that even when a SW update does not ask for reboot, it often helps.
<smartboyhw> :)
<ailo> You can build a new OS on a different partition, but I don't know about installing from ISO, without using the installer.
<ailo> Maybe it's possible to switch OS's without rebooting somehow, but I've never heard of it
<ailo> I'd assume you need to be running the same kernel, and somehow switch the filesystem on the fly
<ailo> Restart pretty much everything
<ailo> Which is basically rebooting
<len-dt> Ya, but someone doing that should not be having to ask how...
<smartboyhw> ailo: +1
<ailo> len-dt: At least not on our channel. But, as you said, I'm not sure we understood the question
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-09-02
<OvenWerk1> smartboyhw: The reason the kdenlive docbook doesn't work is because the index.docbook file is gzipped. (index.docbook.gz) I used gunzip on it and the documentation is fine. Bug #1219476 
<ubottu> bug 1219476 in kdenlive (Ubuntu) "Kdenlive: Help->docbook gives page not found." [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1219476
<OvenWerk1> I tried looking through the package to see how to fix it, but I don't understand the make process well enough. The source is not zipped.
<smartboyhw> OvenWerk1, OK
<micahg> OvenWerk1: you want a meta upload for beta 1?
<OvenWerk1> if you could... it can wait till .04 if it has to... but it is a bug. I should make one for it I guess :)
<OvenWerk1> micahg: ^^
<micahg> OvenWerk1: have a bug?
<micahg> otherwise I'll upload so your meta matches the seed
<OvenWerk1> "collecting problem information" Give me a minute
<OvenWerk1> Bug #1219625
<ubottu> bug 1219625 in ubuntustudio-meta (Ubuntu) "kdenlive requires khelpcenter for documetation to work." [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1219625
<micahg> hrm :(
<micahg> that means there's a bug in kdenlive
<micahg> oh, maybe ont
<OvenWerk1> There is also a bug in kdenlive ( Bug #1219476 ) but that is different... 
<ubottu> bug 1219476 in kdenlive (Ubuntu) "Kdenlive: Help->docbook gives page not found." [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1219476
<OvenWerk1> (could also be a problem with khelpcenter4)
<micahg> hrm, the help center is a recommends on several kde packages
<micahg> http://paste.ubuntu.com/6053728/
<OvenWerk1> And kdenlive should hope to be able to to run on a non-kde system.
<micahg> I think the proper way to fix this would be to add the recommends on kdenlive
<OvenWerk1> I should bug that too then. 
<OvenWerk1> I should be able to do a merge branch, but the better thing would be in debian.
<micahg> once that's fixed, it can be dropped from the seed
<micahg> yeah, Debian would be best
<OvenWerk1> May be some time before it trickles down.
<micahg> needs a merge anyways
<micahg> riddell touched it alst
<micahg> *last
 * smartboyhw is from Kubuntu, so let him fix that
<micahg> well, fix in Ubuntu in the next merge, file a Debian bug so it gets fixed there as well
<micahg> you should probably coordinate that with Kubuntu
<OvenWerk1> That should just be Thankyou smartboyhw 
<smartboyhw> OvenWerk1, sure
<smartboyhw> First of all, I shall bug Debian
<OvenWerk1> smartboyhw: in kubuntu this is probably not a bug :)  :P
<smartboyhw> OvenWerk1, :P
<micahg> why not?
<smartboyhw> It should be anyways
<OvenWerk1> I would think khelpcenter4 is installed anyway.
<micahg> OvenWerk1: you'll need to ask for the meta to be unblocked due to the freeze
<smartboyhw> OvenWerk1, yep
<micahg> yeah, but it's still a packaging bug
<smartboyhw> OvenWerk1, you need to file an FFe.
<micahg> fow which?
<OvenWerk1> micahg: I can pull the last commit for seeds. Might be best if kdenlive is going to be fixed.
<micahg> last commit?
<micahg> I uploaded already
<OvenWerk1> ok.
<micahg> smartboyhw: which thing needs an FFe?
<smartboyhw> micahg, the unblocking of the meta?
<micahg> I'd venture to say it doesn't since it's just making the archive reflect what the ISOs already had pre-beta 1 freeze
 * smartboyhw does not know if it is a new feature or something
<micahg> In Xubuntu's case, we were adding something new that wasn't in the seed at all
<OvenWerk1> fix.
<micahg> IMHO, IANA release team member
 * OvenWerk1 was slack in reporting the bugs as he found them in daily testing.
<OvenWerk1> I should have done them in order.
<smartboyhw> Hmm, it sounds like kdenlive isn't maintained by the Debian Qt/KDE maintainers team
<smartboyhw> Instead, it is an individual maintainer
 * smartboyhw has to sync as many images as he can today to prepare for Ubuntu 13.10 Beta 1 testing
<OvenWerk1> all the more why it should depend on what it needs and not expect it to be installed as part of a KDE install.
<micahg> OvenWerk1: hrm, yeah, that probably should've been an FFe, I thought I remembered 3 things added to the seeds before freeze
<smartboyhw> Bugged Debian
<micahg> smartboyhw: you were right, I thought it was in there before
<smartboyhw> micahg, :)
<micahg> OvenWerk1: please get the FFe approved before asking for it to be unblocked
<smartboyhw> No worries, we can just file it
<smartboyhw> \o/ http://smartboyhwubuntu.wordpress.com/2013/09/02/season-of-kde/
<OvenWerk1> micahg: I have been thinking of any work I have done since FF as for .04 .. I forgot the seeds go now.
 * micahg isn't sure what .04 is?
<OvenWerk1> 14.04
 * smartboyhw thinks OvenWerk1 means 13.04
<smartboyhw> *14.04
<smartboyhw> OvenWerk1, heh, I've been thinking too
<micahg> oh, /me was wondering if it was 12.04.4
<smartboyhw> micahg, we are trying to make Ubuntu Studio 14.04 FREAKING AWESOME
<smartboyhw> OvenWerk1 is possibly going to do some GRUB development;)
<micahg> I would think the Studio limited development resources would be best spent elsewhere
<smartboyhw> micahg, ?
<OvenWerk1> micahg: now that we have the desktop (our part of it) working well, we want to make sure all of the apps we ship work. So Ihave been trying to do small projects with them all. More than just "does it start".
<micahg> I don't see flavors in general needing to worry about grub
<micahg> OvenWerk1: that's great
<OvenWerk1> What we have done is enough for now. If I did more it would be outsdie of ubuntustudio.
 * smartboyhw works on offline docs and linux-rt for 14.04 LTS
<smartboyhw> OvenWerk1, yeah
<OvenWerk1> By that I mean for grub.
<smartboyhw> OvenWerk1, we know:P
<smartboyhw> OvenWerk1, please file the FFe:0
<smartboyhw> ;)
<OvenWerk1> smartboyhw: is there a web page on how?
<micahg> !ffe | OvenWerk1 
<ubottu> OvenWerk1: Feature Freeze Exception. See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FreezeExceptionProcess for the freeze exception process.
<smartboyhw> Damn, I was typing the link manually:)P
<micahg> :)
<smartboyhw> micahg, where do you live, BTW? Seems different to grasp when your uptime is
<micahg> hehe, that's what everyone says, though, I've been on normal US time for the most part the past few months
<smartboyhw> micahg, OK
 * micahg heads to sleep
<OvenWerk1> And I found it by google...
<OvenWerk1> Good night
<smartboyhw> Good night micahg 
<micahg> night
<smartboyhw> zequence-work, welcome!
<smartboyhw> Back at work, eh?
<smartboyhw> Hey cub 
<cub> Hello smartboyhw 
<smartboyhw> cub, can you zsync the Ubuntu Studio daily i386 (13.10) ISO now?
<smartboyhw> So you can be better prepared when Beta 1 testing starts;)
<cub> yeah I would probably need to anyhow. My Saucy installation died on me on Friday.
<smartboyhw> cub, -.-
<cub> Just won't let me log in
<cub> No idea what broke it. Won't work after updates or reinstallation of packages.
<cub> so, new iso.
<cub> Beta 1 is on thursday?
<smartboyhw> cub, yes
<smartboyhw> cub, just zsync it down first, we can't report test results against the Beta 1 images
<smartboyhw> And, we will have changes coming ( I think)
<smartboyhw> OvenWerk1, infinity unblocked ubuntustudio-meta
<cub> hmm how come zsync is not pre-installed? :D
<smartboyhw> cub, it isn't 
<cub> I know. But since everyone use it i thought it was strange is wasn't installed
<zequence-work> cub: Ususally not being able to login is the result of a change in user settings
<zequence-work> cub: Once I had accidentally transferred ownership of my home files to another user - which made me not have the right to read those files
<zequence-work> what you can do when you don't know what the problem is - delete all files in the home folder, except those you want to keep
<zequence-work> next login should work fine and you get default user settings
<zequence-work> to make changes to files, you need to boot in recovery mode. enable networking to make the file system writable. then do what you need to do, and reboot
<cub> yeah, I read up on several solutions for login issues but so far nothing really helped. I've already put in like 10 times more time than it would take to reinstall, so I'm going windows on the laptp. Reinstall. ;)
<smartboyhw> cub, WINDOWS?
<smartboyhw> :(
<cub> smartboyhw,  the windows way of solving problems, reinstall. ;)
<smartboyhw> cub, heh
 * smartboyhw reinstalls quite often actually
<zequence-work> OvenWerk1: I'm a bit puzzled over the kdenlive bug
<zequence-work> IT seems to have been fixed for the ubuntustudio meta, but not for the kdenlive package itself
<zequence-work> If I'm understanding the bug report correctly
<zequence-work> Going out, but I'll read the logs later
<smartboyhw> OvenWerk1, I'm going to call for a merge of kdenlive, the bug got fixed
<smartboyhw> And a new version in debian is out
<smartboyhw> Still uploading though, so will take some time
<smartboyhw> (I mean, in Debian side)
 * smartboyhw tests the amd64 daily iamge
<cub> hmm installed saucy from daily and run the first apt-get update "ubuntustudio-video" has been kept back?
<zequence> cub: dist-upgrade?
<smartboyhw> cub, um, that's because we uploaded a new ubuntustudio-meta
<cub> no just simple upgrade the first one
<cub> things are moving fast. :P
<zequence> cub: Always do dist-upgrade
<zequence> upgrade is not the "normal" upgrade
<zequence> it's a gentle variant that won't remove files on your system if the upgrade requires it
<smartboyhw> cub, zequence I think we will have a good enough Beta 1 for release:)
<cub> nice
<cub> it use a lot of RAM though ..hmm
<smartboyhw> From the current daily, at least nothing's breaking
<cub> "update-apt-xapi" is taking 97% of my cpu. After I have ran the upgrades.
<xequence> The interview was good. I think I got the job. 
<OvenWerk1> xequence: Sounds great!
 * OvenWerk1 is wondering which bug smartboy fixed
<xequence> OvenWerk1 Yep. Sun is shining. Feeling pretty awesome
<OvenWerk1> smartboyhw: which of the two kdenlive bugs did you fix?
<smartboyhw> OvenWerk1, I didn't fix anything, Debian did
<smartboyhw> The maintainer uploaded a new build
<smartboyhw> I mean, the khelpcenter4 bug
<OvenWerk1> Which one?
<smartboyhw> OvenWerk1, the recommends
<OvenWerk1> So it still might not work.
<smartboyhw> OvenWerk1, ouch
<smartboyhw> I don't know what the "second bug" is
<OvenWerk1> Bug #1219476
<ubottu> bug 1219476 in kdenlive (Ubuntu) "Kdenlive: Help->docbook gives page not found." [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1219476
<smartboyhw> OvenWerk1, this we will have to directly bug upstream
 * smartboyhw reports
<smartboyhw> OvenWerk1, I don't think a fix for this can go in to Beta 1.
<OvenWerk1> Ya but if one of our users asks... they can at least fix it on their own system.
<OvenWerk1> I am thinking more of .04 anyway
<OvenWerk1> This second bug may be with khelpcenter anyway. It is possible it is supposed to be able to read gzipped files.
<smartboyhw> OvenWerk1, http://www.kdenlive.org/mantis/view.php?id=3156
<OvenWerk1> smartboyhw: Thankyou
<OvenWerk1> smartboyhw: I can find lots of documentation on what is inside the docbook files, but nothing as to what the files are and how they are stored. Nothing as to what files should appear in which directory and how they should appear. I am guessing it is normal to use some kind of tool to create the source and another to compile it.
<smartboyhw> OvenWerk1, OK
<OvenWerk1> That makes me wonder if khelp is what is broken or if kdenlive uses an older tool 
<smartboyhw> OvenWerk1, khelpcenter is itself not broken
<OvenWerk1> Ok
<smartboyhw> Since I'm basically using it for my Season of KDE project -.-
<OvenWerk1> but is it missing a feature it used to have?
<OvenWerk1> the source docbook in kdenlive is correct. The gzip happens at compile or packaging time.
<smartboyhw> OvenWerk1, I'm thinking of the location
<OvenWerk1> the debian package has the same pproblem though it is a higher version
<micahg> smartboyhw: did you get the FFe approved before you asked for the unblock?
<smartboyhw> micahg, um, I didn't, but it's a release team member (infinity) who approved it..
<smartboyhw> I was just asking if I need a FFe
<smartboyhw> And he approved it -.-
<micahg> [02:38] <smartboyhw> Ubuntu Release Team: Please unblock ubuntustudio-meta (uploaded by micahg)
<micahg> [02:38] <smartboyhw> We need it in
<micahg> that's all I saw
<smartboyhw> micahg, there's another line
<smartboyhw> <smartboyhw> Ubuntu Release Team: Please unblock ubuntustudio-meta (uploaded by micahg)
<smartboyhw> <smartboyhw> We need it in
<smartboyhw> <infinity> smartboyhw: Done.
<smartboyhw> <smartboyhw> infinity, \o/ thanks
<smartboyhw> -.-
<micahg> that's called responding to an unblock request, not ACKing an FFe
<micahg> though release team usually doesn't care much if a flavour affects only itself
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-09-03
<zequence-work> I don't have a desktop client at home right now
<cub> hi zequence-work, so you think you got the job? =)
<zequence-work> cub: Yep
<zequence-work> Haven't signed papers yet
<zequence-work> so, not shouting hi just yet
<zequence-work> hoping I'll begin on monday already
<cub> cool
<cub> do you know what you'll be doing?
<smartboyhw> cub, can you zsync the i386 images of the daily? We are starting Beta 1 testing
<cub> hmm I'm getting a libreoffice bug that from what I gather should have been fixed in 4.1.0 and we ship 4.1.1
 * smartboyhw will do the amd64
<astraljava> zequence-work: Nice, and thanks for the linkedin invitation. Pulling for ya. :)
<smartboyhw> cub, report bug in Launchpad?
<smartboyhw> astraljava, hello:)
<astraljava> Hi smartboyhw!
<smartboyhw> astraljava, I do have a connection with ya on LinkedIn right?
<cub> Am I reading this wrong? https://bugs.launchpad.net/df-libreoffice/+bug/1206107 at then end it says a new release has been done. But I get the same error running 4.1.1
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1206107 in libreoffice (Ubuntu) "LibreOffice should build against system lpsolve" [High,Fix released]
<smartboyhw> cub, -.-
<smartboyhw> cub, I recommend you to open a new bug
<cub> smartboyhw, yes maybe or should I not comment on the one that's already there?
<smartboyhw> cub, then you will have to change the status back to New
<astraljava> smartboyhw: Yes I believe we do.
<smartboyhw> zequence-work: Good job on adding a new job in your LinkedIn profile:P
<smartboyhw> Hmm, got a problem, zsync can't recognize the file
<smartboyhw> Permission denied!?
 * smartboyhw can't believe he zsynced the image with sudo, for the god's sake
<smartboyhw> Sigh, have to zsync the image AGAIN
<cub> haha
<knome> chmod?
<knome> (or chown)
<cub> clown?
<knome> <- here
 * smartboyhw has to send out the test announcement and make the release notes
<cub> smartboyhw, zsyncing i386 now
<smartboyhw> cub, great
<smartboyhw> zequence-work, OvenWerk1, cub uh hum do we want upgrade testcases again?
<smartboyhw> And BTW, what new things do we include in this cycle?
<smartboyhw> (Except the Ubuntu Studio stuff itself)
<smartboyhw> zequence-work: Please push the testing call to G+ and social mediae
<smartboyhw> And do we seriously recommend it?
<smartboyhw> (I mean, the upgrade)
<cub> how do you mean smartboyhw ? If we won't recommend the upgrade we should it release IMO.
<smartboyhw> cub, can you rephrase the second sentence?
<smartboyhw> cub, the upgrade process from 12.10 -> 13.04 is so terrible, we don't recommend it at all
<cub> Ah yes, but an upgrade from 13.04 to 13.10 should be recommended, right?
<knome> how is it terrible?
<smartboyhw> knome, I forgotten, but just doesn't work
<smartboyhw> cub, we did not test it
<knome> well done.
<smartboyhw> Indeed, I cleared out the testcases
<cub> Otherwise it's just stupid to do a 13.10 release. "Yes, we have made a new release but we don't recommend anyone to use it" :D
<knome> the upgrade tests for 13.10 mean upgrades from 13.04 to 13.10
<cub> but I suppose you mean that we recommend a clean installation?
<smartboyhw> cub, yes
<smartboyhw> Well, I think we can re-enable it
<knome> even if 12.10 to 13.04 was terrible, i'd suppose many people are on 13.04
<knome> if you are forcing a clean installation every time, i'd consider releasing once every year 
 * smartboyhw figures out a way to re-enable upgrades
 * cub notice his spelling error from before making the sentence very confusing
<smartboyhw> cub, upgrade test enable
<smartboyhw> *enabled
<smartboyhw> We didn't test that before, so we need help:P
<knome> the upgrade tests are a no-brainer, they just tend to take quite a lot of time since you first need to install 13.04
<knome> if you are running the upgrade tests on virtualbox, and have the extra space, i'd create some snapshots of 13.04 system so you can get back to the 13.04 state, then repeat the tests with beta 2 and final tests
<cub> Unless you have vanilla 13.04 in Vbox? Or should the tests be run on a "real" installation as well?
* smartboyhw changed the topic of #ubuntustudio-devel to: Ubuntu Studio Development Channel | https://code.launchpad.net/ubuntustudio | find Ubuntu Studio stable Releases at https://ubuntustudio.org/download/ | latest current ISO http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntustudio/dvd/current/ | Please test 13.10 Beta 1 and especially the upgrade test
<cub> same thought knome :d
<knome> cub, as usually, real hardware is good, but even vbox helps
 * knome gets something to eat and drink, will be back soonish
<zequence-work> The upgrade messes up some user settings, from 12.10 to 13.04
<zequence-work> We need to test upgrading from 13.04 to 13.10 to see if there are similar problems
<zequence-work> cub: I'll be responsible of their linux machines
<zequence-work> among other thing :)
<zequence-work> for*
<smartboyhw> zequence-work: BTW you got the new job right?
<zequence-work> smartboyhw: Haven't signed a contract yet, but it seems very likely that I'll get it
<smartboyhw> zequence-work, great:)
<smartboyhw> Phew, the images does download very fast:P
<smartboyhw> We can finish the image testing by today I think
<smartboyhw> Leaving room for upgrade tests tmr and Thursday
<smartboyhw> For the first time ever, I think we are doing the testing efficently
<zequence-work> astraljava: Thanks! :)
<smartboyhw> zequence-work: Are you going to participate in your city's Software Freedom Day event this year?
 * smartboyhw is, and going to promote Ubuntu:P
<smartboyhw> For a sneak peek, look https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SaucySalamander/Beta1/UbuntuStudio (and ignore the upgrade stuff plz)
 * smartboyhw just hopes that madeinkobaia can give them some artwork in time
<cub> smartboyhw, I won't be able to run any tests until earliest on Friday.:/
<smartboyhw> cub, why!?
<cub> I'm very busy at work.
<smartboyhw> cub, hmm
<smartboyhw> That WILL be a problem for our testing:P
<smartboyhw> cub, can you do the i386 image testing at least?
<cub> well I have my our of commute every day, but that's it.
<smartboyhw> -.-
<cub> I can't commit to anything this week, no. In case I would fail to keep the deadlines
<smartboyhw> Now my testing schedule has become completely wrong
<cub> and I sort of need to keep my job. ;)
<smartboyhw> zequence-work: I'm proposing to delay the upgrade testing to Beta 2 then
<smartboyhw> If we can't get any testing at Thurs
<cub> Is there a schedule where I'm scheduled in? In that case I would like to see it
<smartboyhw> cub, no
<smartboyhw> Just that I was expecting you to test the i386 image:P
<cub> I might be able, I just can't promise anything at the moment.
<cub> so I will pitch in whenever I can.
<smartboyhw> DarkEra, hey, can you help do some i386 image testing?
<DarkEra> smartboyhw, i would if i had the time. trying to finish a room and then we're off for a holiday
<smartboyhw> DarkEra, OUCH
 * smartboyhw is under-manned this time
<DarkEra> also the testing would be hard on this crappy netbook
<cub> DarkEra, what are you running?
<DarkEra> cub, desktop wise?
<cub> no the netbook?
<cub> I use an eee pc 900 most of the time
<DarkEra> it's a older one i have, acer aspire one 150 ZG5
<DarkEra> i tested the previous release on it but it was a pain to work on
<cub> :/
<cub> seems to be similar to mine
<DarkEra> yep
<zequence-work> smartboyhw: Sure. We can wait with the upgrade test
<smartboyhw> zequence-work, OK
<zequence-work> svt.se
<zequence-work> opps
<cub> ?
<knome> hehe
<cub> It could have been a far worse url
<knome> let's not talk about that
<smartboyhw> zequence-work: xnox posted an email that asks flavours to recommend 64-bit images over 32-bit. Should we do that?
<smartboyhw> That will be in effect since 13.10 he said
<knome> smartboyhw, that's not what he said
<smartboyhw> knome, didn't he?
<smartboyhw> Similarly I'd like to ask all other flavours to carefully asses their
<smartboyhw> demographic and target audience and potentially also adapt similar
<smartboyhw> messaging strategy on their flavour websites to promote 64-bit images
<smartboyhw> by default.
<knome> "to carefully asses ... and *potentially* also adapt similar messaging strategy"
<knome> he's just saying "ubuntu does this, you might want to do it as well"
<smartboyhw> knome, that's an suggestion isn't it?!
<knome> not really.
<smartboyhw> knome, OK, I thought it is
<knome> he's just asking for flavors to consider if this is the sensible thing for them to do as well
<smartboyhw> Still, I would recommend this for Studi
<smartboyhw> *Studio
<knome> sure, that's up for studio to consider :)
<knome> but there is no obligation to do so
<smartboyhw> knome, of course
<cub> doesn't that come down to how much RAM you have in the computer and wether you like to run VSTs or not?
<smartboyhw> Well, I thought that when we mean "ask" we mean not strictly obligating
<cub> I know you can run 32 bit stuff in 64 bit, but maybe not for the average user.
<cub> From what I have gathered many of the users on the forums and such "just want to boot and record". Not fiddle around with getting stuff to run.
<smartboyhw> cub, getting stuff to run is the same in 32-bit and 64-bit -.-
<cub> I'm not so sure.
<knome> there might have been installation or such problems with 64-bit maybe 5 years ago
<knome> with flash and such
<smartboyhw> knome, 5 years ago?!
<knome> few years back? nah, i never bumped into anything that is 32/64-bit related
<knome> smartboyhw, yes, 5 years ago.
<smartboyhw> knome, I don't think that's still happen now
<knome> i'm just saying that the argument "i just want to install stuff and not fiddle with it" is not a valid argument for 32/64-bit image choice
<cub> smartboyhw, to get wine and whatnot you need to make VSTs run in 64-bit Ubuntu Studio, from what I've seen in the forums (haven't tried it myself) it seems a bit tricky. Something I could plunge down into when starting to look through the workflows.
<knome> me neither; as i said, i haven't seen stuff like that in years
<cub> knome, it might be? If we were to recommend one over the other it might be handy to have som guidelines. Like "If you want to run VSTs without a hassle, install 32 bit." for instance
<knome> i don't know about VSTs, but if they are problematic on 64-bit installations, you should definitely look at those problems before 14.04 release
<cub> yeah, I would have to good tests done on that before feeling comfortable to recommend something above another.
<smartboyhw> Sure
<cub> though, my personal recommendation is to not use VST. :D
<knome> ultimately, if no-one ever uses VSTs on 64-bit, it's hardly going to be fixed
<smartboyhw> zequence-work: When are you gonna send the T-shirt to me?:P
<zequence-work> smartboyhw: Sometime by the end of the month
<smartboyhw> zequence-work, ouch, I want that before the 21st for the Software Freedom Day:P
<zequence-work> smartboyhw: Sorry. No can do :(
<smartboyhw> zequence-work, :(
<smartboyhw> Anyway
 * smartboyhw tests the amd64 image
<OvenWerk1> smartboyhw: I will try to fit in another 32bit test
<smartboyhw> OvenWerk1, thank goodness:)
<OvenWerk1> are we testing daillies running upo to B1, or is respin stopped already?
<smartboyhw> OvenWerk1, stopped
<OvenWerk1> good
<smartboyhw> The newest daily is the pre-Beta 1 iamge and will NOT be respun unless absolutely necessary.
<OvenWerk1> The other issue I had with upgrade was that the generic kernel showed up.
<smartboyhw> Heh, Virtualbox sound is great:P
<OvenWerk1> this is less of a problem now that we have made lowlatency always default.
<smartboyhw> OvenWerk1, that will be a kernel issue (which happens in i386 only)
<smartboyhw> zequence-work will hopefully fix that
<OvenWerk1> knome: 32bit vs: 64bit: The problem we have with 64bit is that it will not include any 32bit only sw in an iso even though it is generally a possibility to install that sw afterwards.
<smartboyhw> amd64 passed greatly
 * smartboyhw marks it ready
<smartboyhw> I didn't expect I can test the post-installation in Virtualbox, but it worked!
<OvenWerk1> knome: the main point in this is with people starting to use linux in their studio after using windows and having an expensive collection of VSTs they want to use.
<OvenWerk1> wine is still  32bit stuff.
<smartboyhw> The biggest problem is Wine:(
<OvenWerk1> The biggest problem is windows.
<smartboyhw> OvenWerk1, agreed +1
<OvenWerk1> and perhaps I should say windows sw. to be specific development practices. From dos times developers have felt it is acceptable to go around the os and use tricks to get a feature that the os doesn't support natively.
<OvenWerk1> These things are invisible to the user.
<smartboyhw> OvenWerk1, after you do the i386 image test see if there's any time to do an i386 upgrade test from 13.04 => 13.10
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-09-04
<OvenWerk1> Gack! It looks like we need to try the upgrade 4 times all together...
<smartboyhw> Ubuntu Studio Beta 1 images are marked as ready.
<smartboyhw> Now, the upgrade tests-.-
 * smartboyhw has to zsync the amd64 image to try
* smartboyhw changed the topic of #ubuntustudio-devel to: Ubuntu Studio Development Channel | https://code.launchpad.net/ubuntustudio | find Ubuntu Studio stable Releases at https://ubuntustudio.org/download/ | latest current ISO http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntustudio/dvd/current/ | Please test 13.10 Beta 1 upgrade tests
<smartboyhw> zequence-work, zsyncing the 13.04 amd64 image for upgrade testing here is a nightmare:(
<zequence-work> smartboyhw: Good work on testing. You take good care of your responsibilities
<zequence-work> smartboyhw: Why so?
<smartboyhw> zequence-work, my internet is slow:(
<smartboyhw> zequence-work, are you going to join the Software Freedom Day in your city?
<smartboyhw> OvenWerk1, ^
<zequence-work> smartboyhw: There won't be one in my city. Only in two very small cities in Sweden, and not close to here
<smartboyhw> zequence-work: Oh
<smartboyhw> I'm going to mine
<smartboyhw> And I just confirmed that I'll be giving a talk there:P
<zequence-work> I'm not too eager to organize such an event myself, so I'll just skip it for now. Maybe someone will pick it up next year
<OvenWerk1> smartboyhw: I my very well be the only Linux user in town...
<smartboyhw> OvenWerk1, ouch. BTW, can you do the i386 upgrade tests?
<OvenWerk1> In progress. They may take a few days
<smartboyhw> OvenWerk1, heh
<smartboyhw> We will want to test it soon enough so we can tell people: "You can upgrade from 13.04 to Beta 1"
<OvenWerk1> Ya, but there are 300 upgrades before I can do the upgrade.
<smartboyhw> OvenWerk1, yeah:(
<OvenWerk1> It is not like the LTS where there are still dailies
<OvenWerk1> over 1000 packages to install for the distro upgrade
<OvenWerk1> At 33/1474
<smartboyhw> -.-
<OvenWerk1> On 12.04 try a right click on clear desktop and in the minimenu hover over Applications. Our icons are really big. I hope that is fixed.
<OvenWerk1> Installing linux-image-generic as Depends of linux-generic
<OvenWerk1> found in /var/log/dist-upgrade/apt.log
<OvenWerk1> 2013-09-04 06:34:27,011 DEBUG ./get_kernel_list.sh returns: ['linux-generic', 'linux-image-generic', 'linux-virtual', 'linux-image-virtual', 'linux-rt', 'linux-image-rt']
<OvenWerk1> zequence-work: notice linux-lowlatency is not in the list. This is why we get generic... yet somehow we also get the right lowlatency as well.
<zequence-work> OvenWerk1: Good work
<zequence-work> OvenWerk1: We should fix that
<zequence-work> the upgrade script has a set of subscripts I assume
<zequence-work> and one of them is ./get-kernel_list.sh
<zequence-work> should be a trivial fix
<zequence-work> update-manager-core?
<smartboyhw> !find get-kernel_list.sh
<ubottu> Package/file get-kernel_list.sh does not exist in raring
<smartboyhw> -.-
<smartboyhw> !find get_kernel_list.sh
<ubottu> Package/file get_kernel_list.sh does not exist in raring
<smartboyhw> What the?
<OvenWerk1> do-release-upgrade
<zequence-work> And that is apart of update-manager-core
<zequence-work> dpkg -S do-release-upgrade
<OvenWerk1> in python
<zequence-work> have to go. the file is in ./DistUpgrade/get-kernel_list.sh
<zequence-work> but, it's using another script to get the flavor
<smartboyhw> !find DistUpgrade/get-kernel_list.sh
<ubottu> Package/file DistUpgrade/get-kernel_list.sh does not exist in raring
<zequence-work> ..in the source package for update-manager-core
<zequence-work> bbl
<OvenWerk1> /usr/share/ubuntu-release-upgrader/removal_blacklist.cfg lists all the desktops but not ubuntustudio-desktop
<smartboyhw> -.-
<OvenWerk1> bug 2
<ubottu> Error: Launchpad bug 2 could not be found
<smartboyhw> OvenWerk1, Bug 2, nice;p
<smartboyhw> You want Bug 1?
<smartboyhw> -.-
<OvenWerk1> I am saying that is the second bug I have found with upgrading.
<smartboyhw> OvenWerk1, ah
<smartboyhw> Bug No. 2 will be better than Bug 2:P
<smartboyhw> OvenWerk1, how's the upgrade?
<smartboyhw> I have downloaded the 13.04 image and will be doing the upgrade tmr
<smartboyhw> And do we recommend any upgrades?
<OvenWerk1> I will see when I get there. All the packages are downloaded (1400+) and are now installing.
<OvenWerk1> At least, even though there are two kernels, the lowlatency one should be default.
<smartboyhw> OvenWerk1, let's see;0
<smartboyhw> ;)
<OvenWerk1> I expect ubuntustudio-* packages are installed towards the end of the install, but I think the is a postinstall for the kernels.
<OvenWerk1> Interesting, The progress bar for the distribution-upgrader only shows about every third package it is dealing with.
<OvenWerk1> wierd: The upgrade (re)creates grub.cfg a number of times before it has fully installed the new grub templates.
<OvenWerk1> Our grub changes work by fluke not on purpose. We need to include the "hook" that makes sure grub.cfg gets rebuilt after our -settings. It actually only got rebuilt because of kernel removal in the cleanup stage.
<OvenWerk1> That makes 3 bugs so far in the upgrade. The desktop looks fine... not that we changed much :) There are some things that will not (so far as I know) get updated such as the backdrop once we get a new one.
<OvenWerk1> Anyone who wants to confirm Bug #1220898 ?
<ubottu> bug 1220898 in update-manager (Ubuntu) "generic kernel gets installed in ubuntustudio upgrade." [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1220898
<zequence> I'd need to an upgrade myself.
<zequence> I'll do one tomorrow
<OvenWerk1> SB is doing one too, I think.
<OvenWerk1> Probably back in school though, so he may have less time.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-09-05
<OvenWerk1> zequence: the upgrade from image doesn't work. I'm not sure why, it could be that I am trying to upgrade a system on a USB hard drive... but there was nothing to suggest that was undoable.
<OvenWerk1> Anyway, after a fresh install of raring and updating it, there was no upgrade option... I don't think I have ever seen that actually.
<OvenWerk1> The upgrade to 13.10 from 13.04 using the net was fine aside from the extra kernel
<zequence> OvenWerk1: Could it be because it's still marked as a dev release?
<smartboyhw> OvenWerk1, oops, so it can't upgrade by images?
<smartboyhw> -.-
<smartboyhw> Weirdly, Xubuntu says they can
<smartboyhw> zequence-work: testing upgrades here, still installing 13.04. It seems image-based upgrades failed for OvenWerks
<zequence-work> I'll do an upgrade this afternoon. 
<zequence-work> Just finished my lecture. Some lunch. Salary negotiations, and then to work :)
<smartboyhw> zequence-work: Can you do an image-based one?
<smartboyhw> zequence-work: Heh, salary negotiations:P
<zequence-work> smartboyhw: Yes. I'll try that
<smartboyhw> Ouch, haven't made the release announcements-.-
 * smartboyhw abandons his upgrade test
<smartboyhw> My internet is largely disrupted
<smartboyhw> zequence-work: I can't do the upgrade tests, my network is largely disrupted due to it (I'm running in a VBox)
<smartboyhw> zequence-work, do you want to have a look at the release announcement for Beta 1?
<smartboyhw> (And do try to not ping timeout;P)
<smartboyhw> ttoine, hey
<ttoine> hello
* smartboyhw changed the topic of #ubuntustudio-devel to: Ubuntu Studio Development Channel | https://code.launchpad.net/ubuntustudio | find Ubuntu Studio stable Releases at https://ubuntustudio.org/download/ | latest current ISO http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntustudio/dvd/current/ |
<OvenWerks> smartboyhw: it may have something to do with lots of patitions on that machine
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks, UbuntuKylin is failing the test too
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks, yes, the bug is marked invalid due to that multiple operating systems are not supported
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks, so, let me remove it from release notes-.-
<zequence-work> smartboyhw: Do you have a link?
<smartboyhw> zequence-work: http://paste.kde.org/pca60ee24/
<smartboyhw> (Have to shorten the title, it can't be too long-.-
<smartboyhw> I mean, in the Pastebin
<zequence-work> OvenWerks: Have you looked at getting your packages show up in USC?
<zequence-work> I forget what was needed..
<smartboyhw> zequence-work, what kinds of application did we newly include (except our own packages?)
<smartboyhw> I can think of Orca, but anything else?
<zequence-work> smartboyhw: Looks good to me
<zequence-work> smartboyhw: You could check the log for the seeds bzr branch
<smartboyhw> zequence-work: Hmm, not much
<smartboyhw> Except Orca and brltty and khelpcenter4 (for Kdenlive doc)
<smartboyhw> I guess what I need to do now, is just to wait till the release officially happens
 * smartboyhw goes back to his SAT study guide
<OvenWerks> smartboyhw: Ya, the upgrade from image only works for one drive, one os installed. For me that makes it untestable.
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks, well, we will have to make clarifications in the testcase
<OvenWerks> Yes.
<OvenWerks> smartboyhw: I have removed my test results because they are invalid.
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks, good
<smartboyhw> Well, we are ready for release, just waiting for upstream orders
<OvenWerks> I am not sure how I could do this test... maybe take the "other os" and mv / /offline?
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks, dunno
<smartboyhw> But, it certainly can't have two Ubuntu(s) at the same time
<OvenWerks> That should be clear in the testcase
<OvenWerks> Also in any documentation for the user doing the upgrade... which I haven't seen :)
<OvenWerks> zequence:  I will try a mv / /offline/ on a partition so I have only one os and see if I can do the upgrade from image.
<OvenWerks> sb has gone to bed I would guess... or study.
<OvenWerks> zequence: we don't seem to anything in the video section for recording video from either fw or v4l.
<OvenWerks> The vlc video player is supposed to be able to. I'll check.
<OvenWerks> I think we should add vlc to our list for 14.04... with some testing.
<OvenWerks> I am also testing lives or LiVES as they call it.
<OvenWerks> BTW we do ship mplayer, but no GUI to go with it. There seems to be both smplayer (qt based) and gnome-mplayer (adds about 13 extra packages as well) and mplayer-gui... which won't even start.
<OvenWerks> I think mplayer may be part of libav or part of ubuntu-core... we may as well include a gui for it. I personally would lean towards smplayer as being the least disruptive.
<OvenWerks> LiVES seems to deal with recording live video in a much better way than VLC.
<OvenWerks> There is a delay, but I think at least some of that is V4L drivers.
<madeinkobaia> Hi ttoine, what's up ?
<cub> o/
<cub> just letting you know I
<knome> yes, you
<cub> am still alive. ;) just busy bee.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-09-06
<OvenWerks> zequence: the upgrade for 64 bit seems to have vanished. I did test it and it did work. It told me it failed to update one piece of software, but that may be an extra file I had in /etc/default/grub.d to make video work in the VTs (c-a-F*). It was missing after the upgrade.
<OvenWerks> Big plus is no generic kernel
<OvenWerks> I got it work as I suggested earlier. The other install I just "mv"ed /boot, /etc, init* and vm* to /offline. Then upgrade from image worked. Afterwards I put them back, readded my graphics grub mod and did update-grub... everything back to normal.
<OvenWerks> Also much faster :)
<smartboyhw> zequence, please post the release announcements to G+ and social mediae
<smartboyhw> madeinkobaia, heyas
<smartboyhw> Any artwork news? (And no need for the doc artwork, I've decided to delay it till 14.04)
<madeinkobaia> Hi smartboyhw :) 
<madeinkobaia> You will have the updated doc logo for the 10th. Otherwise I have more or less finished the 13.10 default wallpaper. I can sent you a copy by mail if you want.
<madeinkobaia> smartboyhw: ^
<smartboyhw> madeinkobaia, I don't need the doc logo that quick
<smartboyhw> Since I'm delaying it.
<smartboyhw> madeinkobaia, can you send it to the development mailing list
<smartboyhw> it = the wallpaper
<OvenWerks> smartboyhw: the upgrade from image does work.
<OvenWerks> I guess I am too late though
<OvenWerks>  :)
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks, heh
<OvenWerks> you can see in the back log how I did it.
<OvenWerks> It  is a lot faster too.
<OvenWerks> if someone was doing a number of machines it would be the way to go
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks, we need zequence to approve the email message of madeinkobaia's artwork
<OvenWerks> smartboyhw: I haven't seen it. Not on the dev list then?
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks, of course it hasn't been on the dev list yet, zequence needs to approve it as I said;P
<OvenWerks> be in a couple of hours I would think
<len-testing> smartboyhw, in case I forget... our slideshow is missing a slide for the publishing workflow
<len-testing> madeinkobaia, ^^ you need to see this too.
<smartboyhw> len-testing, oh no
<smartboyhw> We should add it
<smartboyhw> Good, the email is here now:P
<len-testing> Yup, it was missing for 13.04 too
<len-testing> The backdrop looks really nice.
<smartboyhw> len-testing, I think we need zequence approval, then we can put it in:P (That means I +1)
<madeinkobaia> Here a link to my 13.10 default wallpaper proposition : http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-art/ubuntustudio-resources/art/view/head:/ubuntu-studio_1310_RC1_wallpaper_01_a_tirages-16-9_by_madeinkobaia.jpg 
<madeinkobaia> Hi len-testing : )
<len-testing> Yup the barcode is actually a good idea
<len-testing> It gives a sense of doing analog art in the digital realm
<len-testing> Though I doubt that many people would see that :)
<len-testing> madeinkobaia, my first though is "how will we top that for the LTS?"
<madeinkobaia> len-testing: Thanks, by "top" you mean "improve" or "adapt" ? 
<len-testing> improve on.
<madeinkobaia> len-testing: I start work on the whole look and feel for the 14.04 (theme, icons maybe a conky too, etc.). All graphics will be new, include the wallpaper set-up.
<len-testing> Wow.
<smartboyhw> madeinkobaia, make sure it unites to one theme:P
<smartboyhw> And good work there
<madeinkobaia> len-testing: A huge work, that's why I started now ;)
<smartboyhw> len-testing, what do you have in the skunkworks for 14.04?
<len-testing> A long list :)
<smartboyhw> len-testing, show us;P
<len-testing> There are a lot of desktop settings that could be fixed/changed
<len-testing> ubiquity workflow chooser.
<len-testing> fixes... for firefox directory viewer and others
<len-testing> I'm doing some application testing for the video menu/workflow to see what should be added/removed.
<len-testing> My installer has some fixes/improvements in the works.
<len-testing> (error catching is a big one there)
<madeinkobaia> Hi cub : )
<cub> Hi madeinkobaia!
<cub> I saw the wallpaper, nice!
<madeinkobaia> cub: Thanks : )
<smartboyhw> cub, hey, haven't seen you for a while
<cub> Have you heard any other reactions?
<cub> nope, very busy week both at home and at work. :/
<smartboyhw> cub, I and len-testing provided excellent reactions;P
<cub> I really should do invoicing now but I needed a break. :P
<cub> I've been keeping track through the irclogs though
<madeinkobaia> cub: Now as I said in the dev-lest, feel free to tell me any remarks.
<cub> Good to see you got thorugh the testing alright.
<cub> madeinkobaia: I like, as you wrote, to keep it an all-purpose design. not everyone is using ubuntu studio for audio (which seem to be a common notion outside of the devel channel)
<madeinkobaia> cub: That was the goal, glad that you noticed it : )
<cub> perhaps if I was to use it myself I'd like the lighter grey areas around the CoF to be a bit darker?
<cub> I like the bar code. I hope it stays. :P
<cub> smartboyhw: are we going right into beta 2 testing now?
<madeinkobaia> cub: I always test wallpapers on old monitors too. I do an average about contrast and darks colors for match on old monitors (I believe that everybody do not have great monitors) .Now I am agree with you, on my recent monitor it could be darkest a little.
<cub> madeinkobaia: that's true. I made a wallpaper for myself on my laptop, smashed it up on external screen and it looked totally weird
<cub> Or keep one as default and ship a darker one as well? Os the rock blue and rock grey
<madeinkobaia> cub: that kind of issues are really hard to fix. Colors, contrasts, etc. all that change terribly from one device to another.
<madeinkobaia> cub: good idea, I could do some variations indeed. 
<cub> yeah, it's a mess. I was trying to do a thank-you-card and sent it to my GF for approval. Of course we entered a big argument on colours. :P
<madeinkobaia> ;)
<cub> "It need to be this purple colour" "Yes, it is that RGB colour" "But it looks ugly here" "Yes but ..."
<madeinkobaia> cub, smartboyhw, len-testing, I move, have a nice week-end all, I will be back on monday : )
<cub> bye bye
<cub> and time for me to get going as well, see ya!
<len-testing> In case anyone looks at the logs... there are controls to change the brightness and saturation of the back drop. Cub please try these.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-09-07
<smartboyhw> zequence, ping ping
<zequence> smartboyhw: hi
<zequence> just on my way out the door
<smartboyhw> zequence, eh:(
<zequence> sorry, today Ill be superbusy again
<smartboyhw> zequence, :(
 * smartboyhw would have asked zequence to promote the Beta 1 release-.-
<zequence> I'll have a few free days between Sunday and Thursday
<zequence> is there a need?
<zequence> We just do testing for it
<zequence> smartboyhw: I'll add you as admin to the social channels later, and let you do those announcements
<zequence> ok?
<zequence> sorry for the situation right now. I really don't have time. We won't suffer. 14.04 will be different in all possible aspects
<zequence> bb tomorrow
<smartboyhw> zequence, OK
<cub> Hi OvenWerks, I messed around with the Brightness and Saturation for the desktop and you could do quite much with only those two. However, on the 13.10 wallpaper if I want to get the light parts darker, the darker parts is affected too. But a cool way to change colour on things. :)
<OvenWerks> micahg: bug fixes for beta iso testing: is there anything special I need to do to get them uploaded?
<OvenWerks> micahg: ubuntustudio-default-settings has a bugfix. But there is no hurry.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-09-08
<zequence> smartboyhw: do you have a FB profile?
<knome> hai zequence 
<zequence> knome: Hello :)
<knome> what's up and are you plannig a trip to finland? ;)
<zequence> knome: No trip planned yet. Just about to start a new job. Quite likely that I will travel to Finland sometime next year, as I'll be able to afford it
<zequence> ..and visit my old grandma
<zequence> in Kuopio
<zequence> Well, outside of it anyway
<zequence> knome: I'd be happy to stop by where you live, if I do
<knome> cool :)
<knome> we're most probably moved by next year, but i'm pretty sure we're still living in helsinki or nearby
<zequence> Maybe next summer then
<knome> yeah, just poke me when you're coming
<smartboyhw> zequence, unfortunately my Dad and Mum bans me from having a Facebook account. (Not unfortunately though, I don't want it either)
<knome> facebook accounts are no good anyway
<smartboyhw> knome, +1
<OvenWerks> I ban me too :)
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks, LOl
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks, did you see the comments about the USC?
<micahg> OvenWerks: no, bug fixes are fine until final freeze
 * micahg takes a look at -default-settings
#ubuntustudio-devel 2014-09-04
<ttoine> hello
#ubuntustudio-devel 2015-08-31
<OvenWerks> After much searching, it appears that ladspa is dead. All of the good plugins seem to have moved to lv2, some by the original authors and others have been ported by people who just want them around. There are a number of devs who just don't like lv2, but the tools for developing ladspa plugins seem to be vanishing too.
<OvenWerks> ladspa.org is gone
<OvenWerks> ladspa plugins will probably continue to just work as they have no GUI.
<zequence> OvenWerks: So, should be pretty simple to create a unified plugin launcher, but one that only launches a single plugin.
<OvenWerks> zequence: yes, that is what I see at least for dssi/lv2.
<OvenWerks> Looking closer at Carla. If it was to be packaged for debian, the parts that need Linux Sampler would have to not be configured to be added at least. It sure works nice though. I DL the tarball binary version which works just fine in 14.04 anyway.
<OvenWerks> The email Falk* wrote to LAU gives a pretty good idea as to what can be opted for or not. It seems a stripped version would have almost no depends.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2015-09-01
<OvenWerks> zequence: The email http://lists.linuxaudio.org/pipermail/linux-audio-user/2015-August/102336.html looked like we could do everything besides linux sampler, but it looks like we are missing mxml and maybe some of fftw3 so we would be missing ZynAddSubFX as well.
<OvenWerks> builds and runs anyway. Seems to have a most interesting make file. Decides what features to add by the available libs/programs.
<OvenWerks> Ok, it builds without ZynAddSubFX, but I think that is just the internal version. I can still load the plugin (LMMS supplies the sounds)
<OvenWerks> The patch bay in carla while similar to patchage, remembers where I put things from run to run.
<zequence> OvenWerks: Cadence was being packaged for Debian a while back, I think, but the repo has been removed
<zequence> Cadence would include all falktx stuff
<zequence> I won't do any packaging yet, but I'll make a note and come back to the issue of missing packages in Debian at a later time.
<OvenWerks> zequence: I think rather than doing the whole thing, One bit at a time may get there quicker. I could be wrong.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2015-09-02
<OvenWerks> zequence: looking at http://kxstudio.linuxaudio.org/Applications it appears Carla is not one of the Cadence tools.
<OvenWerks> zequence: I think I would argue for it being packaged separately anyway, because it can, because it does not rely on any of the rest of Cadance and because it is useful on it's own.
<OvenWerks> I think Catia could be packaged on it's own too. I don't know if it is more stable than patchage or not. I like the idea of patchage, but I have personally had trouble with it's stability. It has crashed on me sometimes.
<OvenWerks> zequence: is there a debian tool for packaging?
<OvenWerks> How would I discover the depends for building for example?
<OvenWerks> zequence: with regard to Cadence: In most ways it seems to be much like what we envision a -controls app to be. I think something like that should be either/or. That is we package and use Cadence or we work on -controls. Having both would be confusing and potentially could break things if both were used to make similar tweaks.
<zequence> OvenWerks: There are a bunch of helper scripts for packaging, but other than that, I'm not exactly an expert. Usually, the source will tell you what it needs dependency wise. 
<zequence> Needs a bit figuring out, since package names in Debian may not be the same as the original source name
<zequence> libraries usually begin with "lib"
<zequence> devscripts is a bunch of helper scripts
<zequence> In order to test a build you can use pbuilder
<zequence> That should confirm whether or not dependencies are correct
<zequence> An alternative to pbuilder is cowbuilder
<zequence> debian/rules is a special make file, and it is possible to add a bunch of special configs there for the build. 
<zequence> https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/maint-guide/dreq.en.html#rules
<zequence> I think Ross had good advice on packaging, and that was to do it for Debian and get help from Debian Mentors. They have a mail list there.
<zequence> http://mentors.debian.net/
<zequence> I'm kind of stuck at writing my apt search tool, which I could have already finished for our purposes, but I was trying to figure out how to make it more generic.
<zequence> It searches from all supported Debian and Ubuntu repositories, by first downloading the content files (files, packages and source) from all repos
<zequence> Takes a while, just to download the files, and seemingly, Ubuntu does not have the same exact setup as Debian, though the difference is small.
<DalekSec> Or sbuild.  See also: dh-make
<OvenWerks> zequence: I have used pbuilder before, I'll try that, put in what deps I think try and add from there.
<Len1510> Went to my W partition... and am now doing another upgrade... -controls is one of the upgrading things.
<Len1510> But it will be at least an hour I think.
<Len1510> Ack! someone has added the category "System" to our Documentation desktop files. (I hope it wasn't me  ;)
<Len1510> http://standards.freedesktop.org/menu-spec/latest/apas02.html shows Documentation as not being a sub category. I think I will go back and remove the System.
<Len1510> I will make a bug first
<Len1510> Bug #1491661 
<ubottu> bug 1491661 in ubuntustudio-menu (Ubuntu) "ubuntustudio documentation appears in system menu as well as the ubuntustudio menu" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1491661
<Len1510> I am guessing linian would make a fuss over using Documentation with no main category. I would suggest Education is better than system, but in either case the *.menu file may need to be fixed.
<Len1510> s/linian/lintian
#ubuntustudio-devel 2015-09-03
<Len1510> There were no categories in there I guess I added both.
<Len1510> zequence, in your opinion the file in our info menu should have which main category?
<Len1510> ARandR still needs to removed.
<Len1510> xfce's Display now covers what it was missing when we added arandr.
<Len1510> Are there any freezes in effect that would keep us from changing our seeds to remove it? Or changing our menu?
<OvenWerks> zequence: tested -controls. see comments in email.
<OvenWerks> zequence: ubuntustudio-menu has been fixed, just needs an upload.
<OvenWerks> zequence: seeds updated too. I don't know what needs to be done there (make new metas?)
<zequence> OvenWerks: I think we should use our own category or categories for the custom desktop files, X-UbuntuStudio*
<zequence> seeds can be changed whenever, and I think that affects the ISO, but not the meta until the meta has been re-uploaded
<zequence> We have at least one more problem - no power indicator. I need to fix that.
<zequence> OvenWerks: So, if I remove ARandR, display settings will function?
<zequence> ..will still function, I mean. I don't need to add anything?
<zequence> Thanks for trying out -controls.
<cub> zequence: do you know if there is some documentation on working on the web sites? As we have a branch and then need to get things uploaded. I don't know the workflow or what our possibilities are to plan for redesign
<zequence> cub: It's best to create a new branch if you want to do some serious changes. You can add it to the website project.
<zequence> To test it you'll need some form of staging web site. You have one?
<zequence> To create the new branch, do: bzr push lp:~ubuntustudio-website/ubuntustudio-website/<newname>
<zequence> Or, maybe you need to replace ~ubuntustudio-website (team) with your lp ID. 
<cub> Yes I will set up a staging server like I did before. 
<zequence> I'm working on reducing the wiki layout right now, sort of related
<zequence> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Staging/Navigation/Header
<zequence> What do you think?
<cub> Nice!
<zequence> Also fixing the -controls bugs. Nice detail with OvenWerks testing a user named "audio".
<zequence> Time for lunch. bbl
<zequence> This should work, no? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Staging/Navigation/Header
<zequence> I'm going to change the dev wiki with this now.
<cub> yes, looks very good.
<cub> Perhaps you're doing the change right now, but otherwise the logo pictures are not showing on the actual pages
<cub> right, now it does.
<zequence> Ok, good. 
<zequence> help wiki refreshed as well https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudio
<zequence> Styling is not exactly the same on those two wikis, so the look is not identical
<OvenWerks> zequence: I already removed arandr from seeds.
<zequence> Ok
<zequence> Now, after spending some hours on making the navigation on the wikis look ok, I've relearned all the things that don't work styling wise
<zequence> And, I will soon forget them too..
#ubuntustudio-devel 2015-09-04
<zequence> cub, if you read this, this is where the two existing branches for the website lies. https://code.launchpad.net/ubuntustudio-website
<zequence> So, to create a branch there, you'd do: bzr push lp:~jimmy-sjolund/ubuntustudio-website/<new-branch-name>
<zequence> As long as only you are working on the code, don't worry so much about how you do commits.
<cub> Thanks zequence, I'll see which way to go. knome replied to my questions about the Xubuntu theme and it seems the best way would be to make some responsiveness with the theme we have and redo to 16.04
<cub> I'm not sure how to do that yet but will be looking into it
<cub> Still no word from madeinkobaya though
<zequence> I also contacted madein some time ago, and he hasn't responded to me either. Think I heard from him at the beginning of the year. Not a word since.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2015-09-05
<OvenWerks> Yahoo! It looks like my patch to qmidiroute has been accepted. Will be in wily.
<zequence> OvenWerks: It was accepted upstream, or you made a merge request to the Ubuntu package?
<DalekSec> https://anonscm.debian.org/cgit/pkg-multimedia/qmidiroute.git/commit/?id=aac8ba9c145f977cb4ff03fd1c823435f441cec9
<DalekSec> (Without context, that looks like it.)
<OvenWerks> zequence: sort of upstream. Debian will add it. upstream, upstream is very slow moving, they seem to do code maintenace on an annual basis.... so maybe in the spring.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-09-05
<sakrecoer> hi guys!
<krytarik> zequence: So a bit earlier today eylul accepted to be another admin on our mailing lists.  Do you still want to be on there too then?
<zequence> krytarik: You may remove me. I'm officially retired from that job :)
<krytarik> Cool, will do then. :)
<sakrecoer> thank you zequence, krytarik and eylul :)
<eylul> :D
<eylul> zequence enjoy the lack of spam email in your inbox ;D
<sakrecoer> zequence: can you upload ubuntustudio-look for us at some good moment? krytarik and i have fixed the numix blue theme
<sakrecoer> krytarik did all the hard work though, i just pressed the keyboard and gave him a headache :D
<krytarik> sakrecoer: Well, you had the updated assets anyway. :P
<sakrecoer> krytarik: yeah... but thats GUI work, nothing cyberpunk cool in that :D
<krytarik> We'll have to fix this before though apparently :3 - "dh_install: numix-blue-gtk-theme missing files: usr/share/themes/Numix\"
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-09-06
<krytarik> zequence: Fixed the issue with building -look I mentioned the night - so ready to upload now.
<studio-user892> Hi!
<zequence> krytarik: sakrecoer: alright. Been away for a couple of days. Will upload
<chamois> hi
<zequence> chamois: Hello
<zequence> krytarik: sakrecoer: did you guys test the package?
<zequence> I haven't but from reading debian/numix-blue-gtk-theme.install it doesn't look like the correct files will be installed
<chamois> I'm new here, I'd like to help developing Ubuntu Studio. I found it really fast and powerful. I know quite good 3d and 2d graphics opensource softwares and a little bit of 
<chamois> C and C# languages
<zequence> chamois: You are welcome. Just stick around long enough, and you will find something useful to do, no doubt.
<zequence> chamois: Let's let sakrecoer know that you are interested (he is the project lead, and the one to introduce you to what is going on)
<chamois> Ok thank you zequence!
<krytarik> zequence: Unit193 tested it, yes - before was being more specific and stumbled across the space issue in the 'install' file.
<zequence> krytarik: There are two dirs with the blue theme, though
<zequence> One in the root, and one in debian/
<zequence> Ah, wait.
<zequence> Sorry, after build
<zequence> krytarik: Why not put the theme in usr/ where the other stuff is?
<zequence> Not a big deal, but it kind of breaks the way the rest of the package is organized
<krytarik> Because it needs to be compiled.
<zequence> Really?
<zequence> The docs and the copyright?
<zequence> Ok, sorry. There's a makefile in there
<zequence> Well, not my field (themes).
<zequence> Almost kind of Windows 10 that theme, if you come to think of it.
<zequence> Anyway, I tried it. Will just look through the diff and then upload
<eylul> hi chamois
<eylul> always nice to see new people here :)
<chamois> it's a pleasure to meet you too!
<eylul> chamois, one thing to do if not done already is to also join the ubuntustudio-devel mailing list. some of the conversation happens there https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-devel
<chamois> I have already done that
<zequence> chamois: Also, join #ubuntustudio-offtopic
<chamois> On IRC?
<eylul> yup
<chamois> what is it?
<zequence> chamois: It is our offtopic channel, where we discuss OT stuff
<zequence> sakrecoer: eylul: Just a though. The colors on the current staging website - with the image, the grey, the light blue bar - do you really find it works well? I feel something has to change. 
<zequence> For me the images have always been to chaotic. They should be simplified. But, that is not the only thing that could be changed to improve things
<zequence> The grey could perhaps be worked with. Made darker, or something, to give room for other things
<zequence> And, the blue panel at the top - it doesn't melt well with the image either, IMO
<eylul> I think the reason the blue bar doesn't meld with images has more to do with the fact that usually with background images, you wouldn't have a bar menu like that
<eylul> gray COULD be darker
<eylul> although I would suggest against fullblack, because it is actually nicer on eyes to have a bit less contrast in my opinion
<eylul> either way I assumed we weren't allowed to touch the colors. 
<eylul> I would wait a couple more days
<eylul> to hear back from geirdal and go from there through
<zequence> The grey is my proposal. The blue is a tradition. But, everything can be changed, if people agree
<zequence> The grey especially is not written in stone
<eylul> *nods* a slightly darker gray might meld better with images
<eylul> menu, I'd say works ok but I am happy to be outvoted. 
<zequence> I would like to keep the blue too. But, it's a tricky color for some purposes
<zequence> Tweaking it just a little should not hurt anyone
<eylul> we can
<eylul> make it slightly darker, I don't know
<eylul> it kind of grew on me? I don't know I like overall the color interaction but yes, being able to adjust the gray to the lightness level of images would help tweaking the design
<zequence> If you want to try, just go for it
<eylul> I will
<eylul> just waiting to see images finalized
<zequence> sakrecoer: krytarik: All 55MB:s uploaded
<krytarik> lol
<krytarik> Thanks.
<DalekSec> font-manager 0.7.2+0git410aa802-2 uploaded to Unstable.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-09-07
<sakrecoer> eylul, zequence: while i have no problem with the grey and the blue being redefined, i'd like to remind you it would be the third time you look them over now :)
<sakrecoer> doesn't mean it is not worth a 3rd try though obviously
<sakrecoer> eylul: i was bored, so i did this: http://sakrecoer.com/ubuntustudio/websitebackgrounds-license/
<sakrecoer> the license of the images are included.
<sakrecoer> now, feel free to just disregard those, and go with your own flow :)
<sakrecoer> i'm still working on the graphics one... not sure i will have it done in time tbh
<eylul> thanks sakrecoer
<sakrecoer> would perhaps be nice with the mandelbulb vibe of geirdal, but i don't have any such images rendered out atm
<eylul> actually I wouldn't be against dropping that
<eylul> and making the image less busy 
<eylul> I was going to go with a piano and earphones photo for audio but this looks good :D
<eylul> sakrecoer: are these your modified renders?
<eylul> as in did you modify these renders on blender?
<sakrecoer> yes, i replaced logos and moved camera arround, fideled with render compositing..
<sakrecoer> but eylul, please, if you do have time: try those photos!
<sakrecoer> :)
<eylul> I will!
<eylul> I as going to suggest if we go with your renders
<eylul> maybe make the texts/labels that are white, closer to the color of the background of whatever they are sitting on
<sakrecoer> eylul: as in less contrast?
<sakrecoer> why not :)
<eylul> yes
<eylul> lets try that ok meanwhile let me dig my camera out
<sakrecoer> i might as well tell you all now: my family is taking me on a trip from friday-sunday this week for my birfday. so i wont be much arround..
<sakrecoer> reading the list though, of course.
<eylul> oh! well 1) have a fun trip! 2) lets try to get website progressing somewhat before then then. :D
<sakrecoer> yes :)
 * eylul is walking around the room taking pictures
 * sakrecoer imagine eylul has 8 arms :D
<sakrecoer> hehe... i'm doing this wrong: topic in OT, OT in topic
<eylul> hah we all fail at that
<eylul> if anybody has a proper videocam, and can snap a picture of it let us know? otherwise we'll go with either sakrecoer's or my solutions *chuckles*
<sakrecoer> eylul: "it" being...? stuff related to Audio, Video and Graphics i presume :p?
<sakrecoer> chamois: yes, this is a good place to ask question about developement :)
<eylul> video specifically
<eylul> I think both of our photos covers graphics and audio work flows enough. 
<sakrecoer> oh.. i thought the camera was for video.. :D
<sakrecoer> maybe this one works better for video: http://sakrecoer.com/ubuntustudio/websitebackgrounds-license/video2.png
<eylul> it is!
<sakrecoer> less obvious that it is a DSLR.. although, i reckon most homevideos are shot with DSLR now adays..
<sakrecoer> eylul: it is what is what? :D
<eylul> the camera picture of yours, for video
<eylul> but I figured a more proper videocam could be better, IF somebody has one
 * eylul uses her cellphone to do most things these days
<sakrecoer> ah! :) i understand what you mean. But we yet have to figure something or graphics.
<sakrecoer> *For graphics
<sakrecoer> it isn't exaclty covered...
<sakrecoer> i have a modeled a pencil in blender..
<chamois> Do you have any suggestion for the features to show in the video?
<sakrecoer> (for graphics) but i have quite some fiddleing to do before i can render it
<sakrecoer> chamois: yes, it should cover our mainworkflows: Audio, Video and Grapphics
<sakrecoer> those "are" the features: with ubuntu studio, you should be set up to produce media in those 3 workflows
<sakrecoer> of couse, it would be interesting to find a way to emphasise FOSS dimension
<sakrecoer> chamois: this is the static version of the feature tour: http://www.ubuntustudio.zequence.net/
<sakrecoer> if you scroll down..
<sakrecoer> (maybe a button that links to an anchor on the page would be good, eylul ? ) its easy to miss that the page goes way down)
<sakrecoer> eylul: nevermind that for now, i will put those details properly in reply to your excellent email :)
<eylul> I have graphics covered I think
<eylul> images incoming in a few minutes
<chamois> "FOSS"?
<sakrecoer> chamois: Free Open Source Software
<chamois> ok thanks
<sakrecoer> ryl guys o/
<eylul> bye sakrecoer
<eylul> sakrecoer: http://ubuntustudio.azbulutlu.org/websiteImages/ 
<zequence> sakrecoer: Start by using the built-in function for apt: sudo apt-get build-dep fontmanager
<zequence> Oh, was an old comment. I seem to have scrolled all the windows
<sakrecoer> zequence: :) it happens to me too sometimes !
<sakrecoer> eylul: i love it! the composition is great! my favourite is the graphics one. My only concern is that i see lots of finger fat and dirt on the tablet (and on the lens of your mobile)
<eylul> hahah
<eylul> I can probably redo the graphics one
<sakrecoer> eylul: if it isn't too much hustle, i'd like that a lot! just wipe the tablet clean and you are there
<eylul> how do you see that there is dirt on the lens of my mobile, one has to ask? 
<eylul> the tablet I get, that's my intuos which hasn't been used in ages ;D
<sakrecoer> it gets "milky".. there is like form of... ghost/fog glare.
<eylul> that is not actually the lens issue
<eylul> the image in question was.. over exposed a bit. did you check the tinted versions btw? because that's ultimately what we will use in background
<sakrecoer> well, try to clean it, and you will see a lot of difference... its a hard task because they get very greasy from the hand and dusty from the pocket/bag
<sakrecoer> sorry i missed the tinted ones
<sakrecoer> yeah! works much better
<eylul> *nods*
<sakrecoer> in that light the dirt actualy give it character
<sakrecoer> like it is actualy being used
<eylul> heheh
<krytarik> zequence: Just changed the default theme to Numix Blue, as well as merged -lightdm-theme into -default-settings along the way - can you please reupload these two?
<eylul> yup
<sakrecoer> i think, your audio background, tinted, works better than mine. graphics is cool! but i prefer the video with my image and your tint.
<sakrecoer> krytarik: \o/ <3
<eylul> yeah my video image didn't work at ALL with tint, so I didn't even bother uploading it, its there to complete the set, that's all. ;D I don't know I am torn between my audio one and yours
<sakrecoer> if you could just try clean the tablet for the graphics one a litle bit.. hehe... or fake it :p
<sakrecoer> is just... the glossyness of the tablet, could be.... sharper/cleaner
<sakrecoer> eylul: if i have to be honnest to myself, i think your audio and my audio are equal, but yours says more "computer music"
<eylul> I wonder if yours might work if you rendered it from another angle and removed the text on shiny area
<eylul> I am thinking purely from a "this will be a background" aesthethic
<eylul> and re graphics, I'll retake the picture tomorrow
<sakrecoer> i can try that :)
<eylul> but yeah agreed, with video I think your thing is the best we have currently, unless somebody has a brilliant idea. 
<eylul> (or actually actual dedicated video gear they can photograph)
<zequence> krytarik: We need to have ubuntustudio-lightdm-theme dropped from the archive then
<krytarik> zequence: Not yet, it's a transition.
<zequence> krytarik: Well, we have two packages that add the same file, don't we?
<zequence> I can of course upload -lightdm-theme as well, to make sure that doesn't happen
<zequence> But, not sure that's going to work perfectly as things are now. binary form  of -lightdm-theme seems to be an empty package right now, correct?
<krytarik> Yes - that's how transitioning a package works.
<zequence> krytarik: Why are you removing lightd-theme, as a package, btw?
<zequence> Right, it depend on -default-settings. Now, I see. But, still. Why is the theming not separate anymore?
<zequence> Not an immensly big deal, but what if someone wants to install just the the theming?
<krytarik> ...What if one just wants to grab the Xfwm theme?
<zequence> Well, if you want to clean things up, why not make sure theming is separate then?
<zequence> (if something is not installable by itself, I mean - which I don't know if that is true=
<zequence> Besides, why would -lightdm-theme want to bring in -default-settings? Again, probably less then 10 people who will be bothered by that, but still
<sakrecoer> zequence, krytarik: i'd rather not split the themeing up into many packages. the plan is to get numix blue into debian as soon as possible anyway, so those who want just that, can either use the source or wait just a little more.
<zequence> sakrecoer: numix blue is already in our own archive, just not set as default for Ubuntu Studio. But, now there was another change. Our lightdm theme was merged into our -default-settings. -lightdm-theme remains as a transitional package which now depends on -default-settings (none of that uploaded yet)
<zequence> There's no sense in making a theme pull in ubuntustudio-default-settings
<zequence> It's not the kind of change that will blow up peoples computers, but I need to know why this would be reasonable before I upload
<sakrecoer> zequence: we set light-dm in -default-settings, don't we?
<zequence> sakrecoer: Not the lightdm look. Only the ubuntustudio session, which is a separate thing
<DalekSec> zequence: ...From what I see the lightdm package contained one config file, so not really a theme at all, just some config which is why it'd make perfect sense to have it in -settings, and since there is no theme in the package calling it '-lightdm-theme' is a misnomer.
<zequence> DalekSec: The binary package ubuntustudio-lightdm-theme would pull in the theming needed, and set that for lightdm
<DalekSec> So, having basically a metapackage for a lightdm theme?  Seems a bit much.
<DalekSec> (I presume you know about lightdm-gtk-greeter-settings)
<zequence> DalekSec: Yes, but making a theme pull in our -default-settings makes no sense
<zequence> If one want to merge the lightd theme with -settings - fine. But, then remove the original package all togethjer
<zequence> Making it transitional makes no sense
<zequence> We have things like grub configs, swappiness changes, etc
<zequence> That doesn't seem to relate with theming
<zequence> So, I would recommend waiting with such a change until next cycle, when we are not post FF
<zequence> It doesn't improve anything. Rather the opposite
<zequence> And, how does that work, anyway? When an old package is removed, but a new one will install the same file? Does that conflict somehow?
<zequence> ..between upgrades, that is
<sakrecoer> i'm confused... is it -settings that pull in lightdm or light-dm that pulls in settings?
<DalekSec> zequence: I just don't really see how it degrades anything, though yeah past FF isn't the ideal time.  Package a is installed while package b isn't, package a depends on package b while package b sets breaks/replaces on the older version of package a that contained the file(s).  Standard transition, no?
<zequence> DalekSec: -lightdm-theme is an installable package, by itself. It's a package that provides lightdm-theming. Now, it provides -default-settings
<zequence> I think it depends on what you mean by degrade
 * DalekSec shrugs.
<zequence> It changes from being a theming package to being a ubuntustudio-default-settings package with all sorts of settings that are not in any way related to lightdm
<zequence> Now, I picture only a handful people may be in that situation. But, for me, that doesn't matter. It's matter of logic and sense.
<zequence> So, again, what is the reason to this change? What is the improvement? If someone can tell me that in a way that makes sense, I can make the upload.
<zequence> Otherwise, I would rather the lightdm-theme merge was reverted, and I can upload the part which makes the new theme default
<krytarik> zequence: #6 here - https://wiki.debian.org/PackageTransition
<zequence> krytarik: Yes, but this is not about package transition. You are transitioning a theme into something else
<zequence> This reminds me of file renaming
<sakrecoer> i see 2 in favour and 1 against.
<zequence> sakrecoer: It's not vote. I do the uploads, and if I feel a change is bad, and you can't convince me with a single argument why it is good, then you're out of luck
<zequence> You can always try with someone else
<zequence> I'm not the only one with upload rights in the Ubuntu community, after all
<zequence> What I would like to see is the argument. There has been none, so far.
<zequence> The majority is quite often not right, which I'm sure you are all aware of.
<zequence> Anyway, I'll be in touch
<sakrecoer> zequence: isn't DalekSec argument valid to you? i'm not putting up a vote, i'm just trying to understand and seeing 2 in favour and one against
<sakrecoer> zequence: but sure, it's your choice to decide what to do with your upload powers
<zequence> sakrecoer: I don't see a definitive argument for. More of a "why not", but not "this is why"
<zequence> OvenWerks: Didn't you often propagate for a separate settings for audio configs?
<zequence> This is also something that could be separated, in fact.
<zequence> The whole thing is a soup.
<zequence> sakrecoer: Also, I already gave my reason for why not plenty of times.
<OvenWerks> zequence: My main argument for a new theme would be:
<OvenWerks> 1) big enough "handles" that they are actually grabable without fiddling
<OvenWerks> 2) title bar very oviously shows which window has focus.
<zequence> OvenWerks: Right, but we were talking about a merge between -lightdm-theme and -defailt-settings, where a transitional package of -lightdm-theme would depend on -default-settings
<OvenWerks> In my opinion greybird does not do these things.
<zequence> The new theme is already in
<OvenWerks> Ah
<zequence> And, the changes to -default-settings where that theme is made default are already in
<zequence> But, there's an additional change
<OvenWerks> I don't see any reason to merge
<OvenWerks> having separate packages allows easier changes.
<zequence> And, beyond that, if you make -lightdm-theme a transitional package, suddenly depending on -default-settings, you make a theme package bring in ubuntustudio-default-settings for no apparent reason
<OvenWerks> If the theme is unique to Studio, it should be ubuntustudio-theme.
<OvenWerks> zequence: right.
<krytarik> zequence: For the reason that the user who supposedly only has the LightDM theming installed, keeps it.
<OvenWerks> krytarik: ??
<OvenWerks> then -desktop should depend on it.
<zequence> krytarik: Keeps it, and gets something else that they may not have bargained for.
<zequence> See, this is why we communicate. To make sure things go right
<OvenWerks> zequence: is there a reason to not set cpu governor to Performance or at least add that to -controls?
<zequence> OvenWerks: I would not mind adding that to -controls, but I haven't had the motivation or time for that yet.
<OvenWerks> :) understood.
<zequence> Can someone please just tell me why this merge is so damn important, that it overshadows everything else on this planet, and no one is willing to back down a single bit.
 * OvenWerks is not very good at python...
<zequence> It's getting ridiculous.
<zequence> Either you want the package to be right. Or, you want to be right. It's no the same thing
<zequence> You know "==" and "!="
<zequence> ..as related to the package
<zequence> Actually...
<OvenWerks> separate packages allows one of them to be rcomends
<OvenWerks> That makes it easier to replace one with another
<zequence> I'm totally through with this bullshit. So, get yourself another uploader.
<zequence> I'm not not doing another one for Studio again. In fact, I'm leaving the whole scene
<zequence> It's too bad I wasnt' able to do that earlier, but I had to do this thankless shit because no one else was able to
<zequence> So, please, be able, from now, ok?
<zequence> My whole project lead period was because no one else was willing to do it, pretty much
<zequence> 3 fucking years
<zequence> OvenWerks: I'll probably pop into ardour now and then. For the rest of you, see you when I see you
<sakrecoer> what happened? i was on the phone.. am i not seeing someones chats?
<eylul> no clue I just walked into this as well
<zequence> I've dropped out of all the teams. I made sakrecoer the owner of the core LP team, so he now controls all of launchpad stuff as far as Ubuntu Studio goes. It's up to you guys now. Don't spend your time renaming files...
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-09-09
<sakrecoer> hi guys! i'll be away from computer untiÃÂ¶ l sunday. but i'll check in everyday with my phone to parround for someone who can upload for us.
<sakrecoer> aut
<sakrecoer> autumna: sorry i messed the website deadline, i'll go through it (the mobile version anyways) during theb trip today.
<sakrecoer> i rerendered the audio version andwity avdifferent angle but i haven't uploadee id , sunday you'll have it
<sakrecoer> sorry, my irssi shell has a locale issue,ÃÂ¤ and goes baas if i hit swedish letters
<sakrecoer> banas even
<sakrecoer> gah.. 
<sakrecoer> any news from geirdal?
<sakrecoer> whatever happened with zequence is very unfortunate. i was preperared to see him step away, but i'm sure we all would have liked to see it happen smoother. i don't have much to say except that i hope everyone will be nice to him would he check in on us  again 
<sakrecoer> ftr, he handed over every access to me and asked me not to reach out with questions unless they were dirrectly related to something he would have forgotten to give us.
<eylul> sakrecoer: don't worry too much about the website deadline, after all the point of putting such a early deadline was to build in some delays. We are fine probably as long as we sort it out after you are back within a week or so. :)
<eylul> sakrecoer: also no news from geirdal
<eylul> :(
<eylul> hi JLye9
<JLye9> Hi
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-09-10
<geirdal> eylul, Hi I have link to two of images, cant find camera but  I have found a replacement
<eylul> hi geirdal, I need to be afk for few hours, but could you email the links (the 2 images, and replacement image for the third to the list? :)  nice to have you back :))
<geirdal> :)
<eylul> oh and geirdal, the work files of the images. (the .kra etc) (less urgent, but it will be nice to have them)
<eylul> and thanks! I just got your email :)
<chamois> Hello everybody! I just finished a first version of the video.
<chamois> I was wondering how to send it to you. Can I send it via email to ubuntu-studio-devel@lists.ubuntu.com ?
<krytarik> chamois: We'd rather not have huuuge attachments on the mailing lists.
<chamois> ok, then uploading it on youtube as a private video?
<eylul> chamois that is a solution 
<chamois> To do that I need to know your email addresses
<eylul> no I mean upload on youtube as private video
<eylul> and you can send the link to it to the mailing list I suppose? *krytarik feel free to correct me here*
<chamois> I uploaded it on youtube as private. I tried to watch it on my phone without being logged in with my youtube/gmail account but it didn't work.
<eylul> ummm it shouldn't be private I think, but umm
<eylul> you can access it with link, but it is not listed 
<eylul> I forget what that was called
<chamois> found, thanks ;)
<eylul> :)))
<chamois> I'm ready to send the email, Can I?
<krytarik> chamois: Sure, go ahead.
<krytarik> chamois: Looks snazzy. :)
<geirdal> eylul, should I not do a higher res vertions of them?
<chamois> Glad to hear you liked it!
<geirdal> chamois, like what you are doing
<geirdal> chamois, but I have a few pointers if I may
<chamois> sure
<geirdal> hi chamois  Iam Geirdal
<chamois> Hi Geirdal!
<geirdal> we are very few graphics nerd here
<geirdal> glad to see you
<geirdal> chamois, there is alot of spinning, but is it not to much to led the text spin inn also
<geirdal> chamois, just thinking a little to much of an effect, this is cool anyway ;)
<geirdal> chamois,  here is my portfolio http://geirdal.is/ Iam a digital painter ;)
<chamois> Maybe you're right, it was a way to show the texts without repeating the same animation of the first two texts. I thought it would be also a way to separate the two parts ("Intro" and "Workflows"). I can try as you said, maybe is better.
<geirdal> maybe try it :)
<chamois> really nice works by the way geirdal!
<geirdal> blender krita :)
<geirdal> what do you need more?
<geirdal> chamois, Iam from iceland we talk very raw, sorry ;)
<chamois> No thanks, but feel free to give me advices!
<geirdal> I just think that the text of categories should not enter in a spinn
<geirdal> chamois, why (no thanks?)
<chamois> Sorry I misunderstood "what do you need more?" I think
<geirdal> chamois, "what do you need more?" Than Blender and Krita for software :P
<geirdal> If you are a graphic guy
<geirdal> ?
<chamois> Yeah I realized it now, sorry ahaha
<geirdal> hahahaha
<chamois> I think I'm going now..
<chamois> Goodnight
<geirdal> ;)
<geirdal> sakrecoer, redo the images? in higher resolution?
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-09-11
<eylul> sakrecoer, astraljava, and anybody else who actually works in packaging side: https://ftp-master.debian.org/new/krita_1:3.0.1+dfsg-1.html krytarik just dug this up
<eylul> so I guess we can have krita in yakkety after all?
 * eylul is more than a little excited
<Chamois> geirdal I just uploaded the video with the different animation for the "workflows" texts, you can find it here: https://youtu.be/9VRcOn_kh6c . I didn't render the entire video to avoid wasting time rendering.
<cfhowlett> looking pretty sweet, Chamois 
<Chamois> geirdal I got a question. Is it a problem if the US Logo and Wordmark are in 3d?
<Chamois> I just noticed that there's a little bug when the Texts change.. I'll fix it.
<eylul> ok further updates on the krita situation: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntu-seeds/ubuntustudio.yakkety/revision/1499 krytarik added krita back to the seed, because it looks like the dependency issue seems to be fixed. (not clear if we will get 3.0.1 in time)
<eylul> chamois could you maybe tint the screenshots a bit, and, well this latter might go either way but shift the text a bit up? 
<eylul> and as I said in the email, this looks great overall :)
<Chamois> eylul I rendered this video after I read the email you sent. The next thing I'll do is to work on the background screenshots ;)
<sakrecoer> Chamois: 3D is ok, but it _must_ be the files i linked you to on the list. in the best of worlds, when the logo zooms to frame, logo and woodmark are in 2D with no alteration
<sakrecoer> glad to read about krita, eylul and krytarik :)
<sakrecoer> Chamois: 'when logo zooms to frame' = the last seconds, where the full logo is visible :) would be good if the extrusion flattened at that point as in no 3D on the logo.
<Chamois> sakrecoer: ok :)
<Chamois> ( sakrecoer eylul ) I gave to the background a blurred effect and modified the settings for opacity and brightness (also shifted the text a little bit up) : http://pasteall.org/pic/index.php?id=106607
<eylul> Chamois: I like it better
<eylul> perhaps a tiny bit darker? 
<eylul> btw sakrecoer are you back, or still traveling?
<eylul> and blur was a good idea!
<eylul> I forgot to say
<sakrecoer> i am back :)
<eylul> awesome
<eylul> heh sorry
<eylul> here you are 10 minutes back from vacation
<eylul> and I am talking your ear off
<eylul> ;D
<eylul> mt
<eylul> (that was to sakrecoer)
<sakrecoer> :D
<eylul> :D
<eylul> btw astraljava: zequence mentioned you do packaging? 
<Chamois> I just came back from suspend mode and it doesn't show me the mouse cursor. Is it the same for you?
<Chamois> http://pasteall.org/pic/index.php?id=106611
<krytarik> Chamois: Did you update your system recently?  LP bug 1568604 should be fixed.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1568604 in xf86-video-intel "Mouse cursor lost when unlocking with Intel graphics" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1568604
<eylul> Chamois: that background brightness with text in front looks very good to me
<eylul> I have no further commentary on that. :)
<eylul> ok one more nitpick: maybe no dots where the text is? 
<eylul> or no dots (more transparent dots) all over? so that it doesn't mix with the text? 
 * eylul begins feeling bad with so many nitpicks!
<chamois> it didn't send messages. thanks! and I have version 16.04 and I've never updated it (I installed the os in July)
<eylul> wb chamois
<eylul> reposting from earlier: that background brightness with text in front looks very good to me. one more nitpick: maybe no dots where the text is?,  no dots (more transparent dots) all over? so that it doesn't mix with the text where they overlap?
<chamois> I can make them transparent where the texts are and make them all transparent when there's a screenshot on the background to avoid making the scene to messy.. how does it sound?
<eylul> could try either
<eylul> (chamois if you put my name in the reply on IRC, btw, I might notice it faster because my client highlights it, even if I am alt tabbed)
<eylul> :)
<chamois> ok
<eylul> chamois: actually on second thought, making them all transparent might be better, since text size changes in animation
<eylul> as you add lines?
<chamois> eylul "as you add lines"?
<eylul> chamois: sorry bad phrasing. I meant the text area (where dots would need to be removed) changes as the lines get added on each section, so you will either end up with blank areas with no dots at first, or have to animate the area where dots are removed, which might end up complicated
<eylul> (or visually distracting)
<eylul> so I was saying maybe just making dots transparent overall, will be the option with less hassle
<chamois> Ok I'm going now see you tomorrow!
<eylul> bye chamois
#ubuntustudio-devel 2017-09-04
<OvenWerks> JackWinter1: Low latency kernel yes, rtprio and memlock are available to the user that installs (any other user just needs to be added to the audio group with ubuntustudio-controls)
<OvenWerks> JackWinter1: It tries to set the audio card to a high priority thread... but the fact is it guesses. RTIRQ is installed, but setting it to snd,usb,etc. is rarely right.
<OvenWerks> snd will include the internal sound card first (probably not what you want) and then all usb be devices next (including mouse and keyboard).
<JackWinter1> yes, rtirq is somewhat of a mixed blessing :)
<OvenWerks> JackWinter1: in general terms, a pc made for windows is not designed for low latency anything in anmy real plug and play way. This is evident from manufature's spec for sound cards which are different for a mac or a windows computer
<JackWinter1> so it sounds like it will work well for the first user. and if they ever want to add more users, they'll just have to learn about the audio group..
<OvenWerks> rtirq should be user fixed to thge particular cards in use
<OvenWerks> JackWinter1: if they use ubuntustudio-controls it is quite automatic
<OvenWerks> (at least the lastest version... unreleased)
<OvenWerks> The old version does require a password
<JackWinter1> i got a thought the other day, and maybe if i find the energy i'll persue it.  i think the best solution would be udev rules that change the priority of soundcards when they are detected...  should be doable, but i get a headache when i look at the syntax of those files :)
<OvenWerks> JackWinter1: :)
<JackWinter1> would be much better than the generic rtirq script, but still it's better than nothing!
<OvenWerks> In my opinion, someone using a USB audio interface should (if they can) install another USB card to plug the audio box into.
<OvenWerks> It removes so many variables
<JackWinter1> i don't know, i think that whole can of worms is a difficult topic :)
<OvenWerks> pc low latency audio is an art
<JackWinter1> i just got done looking at av linux, so i guess i'm gonna hit the us site now to see what i can put in the wiki
<JackWinter1> oh yes it is...  been playing with that for years :)
<JackWinter1> is it possible to add a realtime kernel easily to us ?
<OvenWerks> I can get .7ms one way latency trhough jack if I hold my mouth the right way
<OvenWerks> if you build the kernel yes.
<JackWinter1> hmm, i bet not with a high load...:)
<JackWinter1> dsp and loadavg...
<OvenWerks> there is not one waiting to be used
<JackWinter1> so is the case still that it's missing from debian?  i thought the situation had changed recently?
<OvenWerks> it is with a PCI card (delta66) in the right slot, with cron turned off, no wifi stuff, both mouse and kb are ps2, etc.
<OvenWerks> I don't know what debian has, My understanding is that there are different people who make a RT kernel, but that the support is hit and miss
<JackWinter1> i guess not a big need for 0.7, but if one could get 10ms roundtrip latency (including the hidden latency from the usb transport and soundcard hardware) that ought to be ok.
<JackWinter1> too bad that it probably means 128 frames buffer with a class 2.0 interface :)
<OvenWerks> my round trip should be 3.5ish ms
<OvenWerks> (card mixer is 1ms each way alone)
<JackWinter1> but ok, that's just needed for monitoring through daw fx, just for editing and mixing 1024-4096 buffers are totally ok
<JackWinter1> yeah pci is much lower roundtrip latency than usb..
<JackWinter1> are you one of the devs?
<OvenWerks> JackWinter1: the problem is "low latency" means different things to different people. Intel/MS think 30ms is lowlatency. Telephony interfaces run at about 1 ms. CAM runs microsec.
<OvenWerks> off and on.
<OvenWerks> I spend too much time on Ardour these days.
<JackWinter1> personally i think if it sounds like i'm a few meters away from my amp it's ok.
<OvenWerks> Ya, I can use my computer as a guitar effect up to about 128/2
<JackWinter1> vocalist monitoring through headphones might possibly want lower than me.  and what ms thinks, is not really relevant :)
<OvenWerks> Relevence is what the hardware is designed for.
<JackWinter1> is there some text from the US site that i can lift for the wiki to introduce people to US?  similar to what i did for av linux?
<JackWinter1> http://wiki.cockos.com/wiki/index.php/REAPER_for_Linux
<OvenWerks> web site stuff is not my thing at all. there is ubuntustudio.org, but what is where I am not sure
<JackWinter1> someday linux audio will get so big, that even rme will write drivers for it :)
<OvenWerks> To get there would almost take someone making an audio centered mother board
<JackWinter1> ok, i'll idle here, in the hope that another dev can point me to something.  thanks for your time and answers, think i know all i need about the distro now, but will read some of the site to see what i can find
<OvenWerks> but with Apple starting to cheap out on the audio parts of their hardware.. something might show up.
<JackWinter1> don't think so, rme's usb offerings are quite low latency on windows, but then again they don't use the standard usb stack...
<JackWinter1> and i guess we'll start seeing more stuff like dante etc as the years go by too
<OvenWerks> USB3 might change things too.
<OvenWerks> I think if things go right AVB might do well.
<JackWinter1> yeah i have no experience with usb3 sound cards, so no clue if things will improve
<OvenWerks> right now there really are no usb3 cards unless they are audio as well
<OvenWerks> if I was buying something right now it would either be one of the audioscience PCIe cards (which do have linux drivers) or one of the MOTU AVB series whic will work right now with USB and later with AVB.
<JackWinter1> the new motus do look nice, and seem to promise hope for us penguinistas :)
<OvenWerks> There is some talk of them (and some other USB interfaces) mixing up the channels sometimes. Not sure what that is.
<JackWinter1> fwiw, this is a start i guess, hope you guys approve, if not please let me know: http://wiki.cockos.com/wiki/index.php/REAPER_for_Linux#Ubuntu_Studio_-_https:.2F.2Fubuntustudio.org
#ubuntustudio-devel 2018-09-03
<Eickmeyer> Perfect. Post that link again.
<JackWinter1> here you go: https://github.com/jhernberg/udev-rtirq
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: ^
<JackWinter1> it's really quite simple.  i suspect OvenWerks has probably seen the link before
<Eickmeyer> And now that we're here, (lol) I'm heading out for some Labor Day fun with my fam so long as my son stops being a stinker.
<JackWinter1> i works perfectly well, but when 2 devices share an irq, it might adjust the priority of the wrong one.  iirc i already fixed the code, but have to test it before i let it go
<Eickmeyer> I'm wondering if it would be something we could fold into -controls.
<JackWinter1> Eickmeyer: have fun, friends and family are more important that computers :)
<Eickmeyer> Indeed.
<JackWinter1> do you have a screenshot?
<Eickmeyer> Not yet, and I'm on the wrong computer right now to do that. 
<JackWinter1> and for OvenWerks, i've also come across a soundcard where the wrong interrupt is reported so it adjusts the priority of the soundcard+1 instead, but that is a bug that needs to be fixed in alsa
<JackWinter1> my utility can't do anything if it's fed false info.  been considering that maybe i should add more to the config file, so that you can specify pci address, interrupt and priority level
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks might be out with fam as well, so I'd lurk indefinitely. You wouldn't be a bad addition to this dev team too, JackWinter1!
<JackWinter1> heh, would be weird to be an US dev and run archlinux ;)
<JackWinter1> well enjoy your labour day !
<OvenWerks> JackWinter2: I have seen it yes... and yes I think it may well be something that can replace rtirq.
<OvenWerks> it needs to be a debian package first... though I could probably just borrow the code and add it to -controls. I have just started working on drawing tablet setup.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2018-09-04
<OvenWerks> I would point out that rtirq does not change the priority of irqs, It changes the priority of the second half of the irq drivers which are driver specific rather than irq specific.
<JackWinter1> OvenWerks: yes ofcourse, its just easier saying it like that
<JackWinter1> or should i revisit the documentation of my utility?  maybe i've taken the same liberty there :)
<OvenWerks> JackWinter1: the difference is important in the case where a device shares irq (probably 16) with other things. rtirq gives each device on that irq a different priority.
<OvenWerks> JackWinter1: unfortuately it tends to still raise the priority of devices not listed that _should_ be at 50.
<JackWinter1> yes
<OvenWerks> JackWinter1: A thought I have is to present a warning screen or at least an info screen that details what devices any audio device we are using shares irqs
<JackWinter1> i'm still not shure what is the best way of handling that.  but once it's in the thread the top half is done, and the threads are preemptable
<JackWinter1> so for our purposes the other devices using the same irq are probably not important
<OvenWerks> it depends on if we are using only one audio device or more
<OvenWerks> For example, midi devices are always separate
<OvenWerks> even in a combo-device that has both audio and midi
<JackWinter1> several soundcards sharing interrupts, that's an intriguing scenario
<OvenWerks> that is not quite what I meant :)
<JackWinter1> i know :)
<JackWinter1> my babyface has only one interrupt
<OvenWerks> I am thinking an audio card that shres with a mouse and another. if the one that shares with a mouse is at 95 and the mouse therefore ends up at 90 then the second audio card might be at 85
<JackWinter1> you are talking about usb?
<OvenWerks> usb, pci, fw whatever.
<OvenWerks> again this is a problem with rtirq, not your sw... (which I have yet to test)
<JackWinter1> if 2 devices share the same interrupt say soundcard and an usb root hub, i'd be inclined to change only the thread that services the soundcard
<OvenWerks> right
<OvenWerks> rtirq is old stuff from when pci audio cards were king
<OvenWerks> It works great for that
<JackWinter1> it's part of the reason i wrote this, as i don't like how rtirq does it, and because it doesn't work for hotplugging cards
<JackWinter1> as it is right now, it only cares about soundcards, nothing else
<OvenWerks> one of the troubles I have with rtirq is raising the priority for my NIC (to play with AVB/aes67), rtirq runs before my NIC shows up.
<JackWinter1> you could run rtirq once again manually?
<JackWinter1> i suppose this utility could be adapted to deal with other things too
<OvenWerks> Yes, and I do, but rtirq does not reorder priorities, it just jams the NIC where it can.
<JackWinter1> but then it starts getting complicated ;)
<JackWinter1> imo, you ought to prune the config to the minimum...
<JackWinter1> i never saw a reason for many usb interrupts to get a higher priority than nic/hdd/etc
<OvenWerks> I don't know the NIC handling code that well, but the i210 does a lot of processing on it's own anyway. 
<JackWinter1> and the infamous rtc...  on my systems it fires exactly once on boot
<OvenWerks> normally a NIC should not be raised at all
<JackWinter1> maybe in your case it's useful, i don't know
<OvenWerks> but to use with avb or aev67 we want to use the timer on the NIC to syn audio clock
<JackWinter1> there is also the old chrt -f -p 98 `pgrep nameofthread`
<JackWinter1> you can run that from a script starting your daw or something like that
<OvenWerks> in these cases the NIC _is_ the audio device.
<JackWinter1> so udev sees it like an audio device or a network card?
<OvenWerks> NIC
<OvenWerks> But there is so much stuff to set up that the driver should be able to do it's own prioritizing I guess
<JackWinter1> actually how well does that work?  i'm considering looking into avb/aes67 for my next card
<JackWinter1> have no idea if it works at all on linux though
<JackWinter1> think i've seen some posts from people experimenting, maybe you one of them
<OvenWerks> I should look at the avb code.
<OvenWerks> there is no avb/aes67 driver that could be called finished and easy to use
<OvenWerks> avb can get sound from jack to jack for sure.
<OvenWerks> I would think it should be possible to go from another end point to/from jack as well
<OvenWerks> but everything is manual setup
<OvenWerks> My thought on either avb or aes67 is to use the timer from the NIC (ptp server) to time a jack dummer back end and then connect remote audio as jack client
<OvenWerks> s/dummer/dummy/
<JackWinter1> ah i see, i'm more interested in connecting a soundcard to my linux machine
<OvenWerks> the jack client should not need SRC as it derives it's sync from the same ptp server
<OvenWerks> yes this would connect an avb sound card to linux... through jack
<OvenWerks> in my case my linux machine sees jack as my audio card anyway.
<OvenWerks> really in both cases, the stuff to get audio from one place to another is all there, it is just missing the glue to discover and connect.
 * OvenWerks is gone for a few minutes
<OvenWerks> JackWinter1: basically, all the avb audio IFs I know about also connect via USB. For aes67, it is dante units run in aes67 mode, so less useful.
<OvenWerks> I think the fire has gone out of the Audio device support in Linux people. Basically anything that works for mac works for Linux with the USB drivers so why work on anything more? There is not even BT audio any more for alsa... of course BT through pulse works and BT is about as reliable as pulse, so using PA as an output to bt is probably acceptable :P
<JackWinter1> heh, and latency sucks with usb compared to on windows :S
<OvenWerks> ouch
<JackWinter1> maybe you are right.  we'll see what happens in the future.  i suppose we ought to be grateful that there is class 2.0 audio in any case, otherwise what would many users use
<OvenWerks> usb mics should die...
<JackWinter1> though i ran into a guy that hacked the snd-usb-audio driver so that you can modprobe some extra parameters, made the latency overhead very little even at big buffer sizes, so it appears even class 2.0 could work much better on linux :S
<OvenWerks> but on the other hand, -controls deals with them nicely now :)
<JackWinter1> https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/snd-usb-audio-lowlatency-dkms/ if you are interested
<OvenWerks> I can do 16/2 at 48000 with no xruns over night
<JackWinter1> i still have to test that patch more, but it makes my rme baby face work nearly as good latency wise on linux as on windows
<OvenWerks> (with my old PCI delta 66)
<OvenWerks> usb should be able to do 16/3, but I think 32/2 is as good as most people can get.
<JackWinter1> that's not really a useful test, the question is what happens when you throw dsp load on it, and load down the machine otherwise...  that's when xruns start turning up
<JackWinter1> i'd be happy with 64-128/2 with low additional latency :)
<JackWinter1> brb, i've gotta test the kernel i reconfigured :)
<JackWinter1> beh, i copied .config to . and not config, so now i can build it again :S
<JackWinter1> so basically i messed it up and can build it all over again :)
<OvenWerks> :P
<OvenWerks> There seems to be a "it's as good as it gets" attitude in linux audio. Xruns? increase latency... rather than finding out why.
<JackWinter1> yes, i suppose that snd-usb-audio caters to the worst case so sucks for all cards...
<JackWinter1> but i suppose we are really a small minority trying to produce music on linux...
<OvenWerks> I don't think that is the whole story, I think there is a lot of variability in MB circuitry as well.
<JackWinter1> i have no idea about the usb protocol, but the above patch really works miracles with the right values for my babyface, latency close to that on windows..
<OvenWerks> many people use lap tops for audio work and so it is hard to say use a dedicated PCIe SUB card as an example as compared to FW days when people very definately would get a fw card that was known to work well/best
<JackWinter1> the the most important being max_packs_hs set to 1
<OvenWerks> :P my fingers at work s/SUB/USB/
<OvenWerks> One just has to look at the big users of USB to understand how drivers are set up... how fast can I transfer my pictures?
<OvenWerks> how fast can I back up my drive to USB, etc. It is all about max throughput, latency should be at least lower than 30ms... That attitude does not help audio at all.
<JackWinter1> no, but surely the snd-usb-audio driver is for audio :_)
<JackWinter1> too bad that it seems not to be working optimally
<OvenWerks> I was talking about the underlying USB code.
<JackWinter1> well with the patch i got quite decent performance out of it
<OvenWerks> good stuff.
<JackWinter1> didn't write down the values, but hang on let me find a post
<JackWinter1> check out the improvement: https://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php?p=2021776&postcount=17
<JackWinter1> i saw similar results
<JackWinter1> iirc (lol it was a few days ago), i can write the new values in the sys file system and disable/enable the usb device in sysfs too, and then it just works better, but have no idea what it might break on other machines or usb soundcards
<OvenWerks> That is always the problem
<JackWinter1> well i'm egoistical enough to be happy to solve my own problems :)
<OvenWerks> I have some of that, but I like to help others too... In their case "good enough" is less good than for me.
<JackWinter1> time to see if this kernel helps anything ;)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2018-09-06
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Have you had any trouble with Cosmic? I try booting my install, but it freezes about 20 seconds in, even if I leave it alone at lightdm. Can't even go to a VT.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: I have had no trouble with cosic so far. But I have not re-installed it since early June, only upgraded
#ubuntustudio-devel 2018-09-07
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: refreshing my copy of Cosmic... 45% difference.  :P
#ubuntustudio-devel 2018-09-08
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: Finally installing fresh 18.10. I will see how it boots when I am done. Note that I always install normal BIOS method because the rest of my drive is already set that way.
<OvenWerks> I do note an error in the logs though: Sep  8 17:55:29 ubuntu-studio ubiquity: /usr/lib/ubiquity/target-config/48ubuntu
<OvenWerks> studio_maybe_ubiquity: 19: .: Can't open /scripts/casper-functions
<OvenWerks> That may affect the ability to not install everything
<OvenWerks> Anyway time to reboot
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: I just booted US Cosmic from yesterday's DL.
<OvenWerks> qjackctl's default configuration is bad (auto kill jack on exit, The rest we don't care about)
<OvenWerks> ubuntustudio-controls has been released
<OvenWerks> ... I need to do a reboot to see how it works.
<OvenWerks> -controls has some bugs:
<OvenWerks> the GUI does not have the same defaults as the daemon
<OvenWerks> The GUI shows jack autostart enabled, but the backend default is not.
<OvenWerks> Actually thats it that I can see... it's missing the tablet stuff... I guess I haven't finished that yet :)
<OvenWerks> reboot
<OvenWerks> Bugs in cosmic: The icon used for Studdio in the menu is over sized, rightclick on desktop and select Applications to see this.
<OvenWerks> another bug in -controls: it appears /lib/* is not installed so cpu governor is not set at boot.
<OvenWerks> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntustudio-controls/+bug/1791457
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1791457 in ubuntustudio-controls (Ubuntu) "CPU governor is not carried across boot." [Undecided,New]
<OvenWerks> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntustudio-controls/+bug/1791459
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1791459 in ubuntustudio-controls (Ubuntu) "The GUI does not show the default values the backend is working with" [Undecided,New]
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: fixes committed for both bugs... needs new release/upload.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2018-09-09
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: I'll ping Ross.
<Eickmeyer> OR... tsimonq2, ping?
<tsimonq2> Eickmeyer: ack
<tsimonq2> Eickmeyer: Can do.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-09-07
<crydotsnake-M> Hello! :)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-09-08
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: New slideshow images are done, merge request is at bug 1843196
<ubottu> bug 1843196 in ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu (Ubuntu) "[Merge Request] Updated Ubuntu Studio Slideshow" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1843196
<OvenWerks> I think this will be the best release in a while
<Eickmeyer> My great niece is featured in the photography slide. :)
<sofastrangler> Hype
<Eickmeyer> ^
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks, sofastrangler: I also added qt5ct along with some tailored default settings to deal with some Qt theming discrepencies. Should show up on the next daily iso.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-09-01
<RikMills> plasma 5.19.5 landing in groovy proposed. unless some patching done, this is the plasma release groovy will ship with
<Eickmeyer> RikMills: \o/ Thanks. :)
 * Eickmeyer has a lot of ISO testing when he gets internet that's faster than 1/2 megabit.
<Eickmeyer> and/or not capped at 10GB.
