#xubuntu-devel 2011-07-11
<astraljava> No new images so far. :-/
<Unit193> I think it's too early for that
<astraljava> Ahhh yeah, might be. Just recalled seeing times like 09:16, but obviously they were of UTC. :)
<Unit193> Yeah... It's just after 3am here
<astraljava> But it's 07:20 UTC, so I'll check back in two hours or so.
<astraljava> Well, still no, even though Studio got theirs.
<astraljava> I see, could still be a timing thing. There seems to be 4 hours difference between their rollouts.
<thauriswulfa> hi guys, what knowledge should I possess to participate in xubuntu development, languages I current know includes, c/cpp,java
<TheSheep> thauriswulfa: you don't need to know anything to start
<thauriswulfa> then.......
<TheSheep> http://www.xubuntu.org/devel
<charlie-tca> Good morning
<charlie-tca> No new desktop images today
<ochosi> hm, can anyone confirm that xfpm's notifications don't show an icon in natty?
<charlie-tca> Did that just start?
<charlie-tca> It works on my laptop here
<ochosi> hm, ok
<ochosi> then i have to check what's wrong here
<ochosi> yeah, i'm not entirely sure, i just noticed
<charlie-tca> Maybe it is recent, then. 
<charlie-tca> I haven't looked in a few days
<micahg> charlie-tca: hopefully the debootstrap issue got sorted/will get sorted today
<charlie-tca> which one is that?
<charlie-tca> micahg: I am supposed to remind you about java
<charlie-tca> I think
<micahg> charlie-tca: thanks, but I can't do it today :(, will try to catch mvo tomorrow
<charlie-tca> Okeydokey
<charlie-tca> Xubuntu community meeting in #xubuntu-devel at 19:00 UTC today. Everyone is invited to attend. Agenda is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings
<astraljava> Hey gang, will make it to the meeting, just gonna be AFK until then. Forgot to zsync images during the afternoon at the office, so can't test today, sorry.
<Unit193> I don't have scrollback anymore, but I think charlie-tca said there were no images
<micahg> no images, deboostrap failure
<micahg> *debootstrap
<astraljava> Oh okay, thought he said "no desktop image".
<charlie-tca> No desktop images
<charlie-tca> alternate images are working
<charlie-tca> Xubuntu community meeting in #xubuntu-devel in 45 minutes. Everyone is invited to attend. Agenda is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings
<charlie-tca> Sorry, trying to cut the grass before the meeting, doesn't look like it will be done, though.
 * charlie-tca looks around for those here for a meeting
<beardygnome> o/
<astraljava> o/
<beardygnome> finally getting a chance to attend again
 * charlie-tca looks at the beardy guy... seems like he saw him before ;)
<charlie-tca> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Jul 11 19:02:56 2011 UTC.  The chair is charlie-tca. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell.
<meetingology> Useful Commands: #topic #action #link #idea #voters #vote #chair #action #agreed #help #info #endmeeting.
<charlie-tca> WOOT! a meeting bot!
<charlie-tca> Thanks to the efforts of AlanBell, we now have a bot to record the meeting
<micahg> o/
<charlie-tca> Our agenda, as usual, is found at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings
<charlie-tca> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings
<charlie-tca> hm, maybe I broke it already
<charlie-tca> Well, for those interested:
<charlie-tca> * Old business
<charlie-tca> * Team updates
<charlie-tca>   * Packaging & Development
<charlie-tca>   * Bug Triage & Testing
<charlie-tca>   * Website & Marketing
<charlie-tca>   * Artwork
<charlie-tca>   * Documentation
<charlie-tca> * Announcements
<charlie-tca> * Governance structure
<charlie-tca> * Any Other Business
 * pleia2 waves
<charlie-tca> and, in the interest of determining what is happening, please use ".." on separate line when you've finished typing.   If someone wants to comment during the updates, please "o/", so we know to wait.
<charlie-tca> Let's try that and see if it works for us
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Old business
<meetingology> TOPIC: Old business
<charlie-tca> We are putting together a "Top 10" questions and answers FAQ. We would very much like to have that on the website
<charlie-tca> If possible, we would even like to rotate these FAQ's so there are new ones for people to read
<charlie-tca> Is is possible to do something like "fortune"?
<charlie-tca> ..
<astraljava> Worth investigating.
<beardygnome> what is "fortune"?
<astraljava> Shouldn't be more than adding a dictionary for it.
<beardygnome> ..
<astraljava> ..
<charlie-tca> A set of statements, that can be rotated daily on your computer
<pleia2> does anyone actually find them useful?
<charlie-tca> faq's?
<charlie-tca> yes
<pleia2> no, the ones on your computer
<beardygnome> oh, like a fortune cookie
<beardygnome> ..
<charlie-tca> It will be the most asked questions from mailing list, #xubuntu, and forums
<charlie-tca> I did enjoy them when I had them working
<pleia2> I like the idea of a FAQ page on the site, not so sure about rotating fortune things anywhere
<charlie-tca> not the fortune statements, rotating the FAQ's?
<beardygnome> me either, might get confusing for people
<charlie-tca> If we have 100 most asked questions, we should rotate them so only 10 at time show up
<pleia2> well I don't like "tips" things in general, I particularly won't like them if it's a FAQ about getting to sound to work when my sound works fine :)
<pleia2> in fact, it may make me think something is wrong, "my sound is working, is it such a big problem for xubuntu?"
<beardygnome> i agree
<charlie-tca> So, having the question and answer there would be bad?
<beardygnome> if we have 100, isn't that more of a knowledgebase?
<beardygnome> i think question and answer is good
<charlie-tca> 100 is a number
<pleia2> Q&A FAQ on the website is fine, as "tips" on your desktop I don't like
<beardygnome> but not having them rotating
<charlie-tca> our goal right now is the top 10
<charlie-tca> but will the top 10 always be the same question?
<jarnos> Best is to have Xubuntu so easy to use it does not need an FAQ.
<charlie-tca> jarnos: reality, please
<pleia2> I think we should just stick with ~10 for now and go from there
<charlie-tca> Ubuntu will be that easy, but Xfce probably is not going to make it that simple, ever.
<jarnos> charlie-tca, the FAQ could be integrated in user interface.
<charlie-tca> and how will that attract users to the website?
<jarnos> charlie-tca, it doesn't
<charlie-tca> goal here is to get users to the website, not to their computer
<pleia2> maybe we should focus on getting these FAQ written and on the website, and then think about putting them in the help docs on the system sometime later?
<charlie-tca> That is a good goal
<charlie-tca> I would expect these things to already in help, but users don't really look for docs, do they?
<pleia2> I suspect most people just do a google search
<charlie-tca> At least, judging by the number of bug reports for out of date docs in karmic, lucid, and maverick, I don't think they do.
<astraljava> google is too vague and confusing.
<charlie-tca> pleia2: we will plan for these to be on the website, then, right?
<pleia2> charlie-tca: yes
<charlie-tca> Thank you
<charlie-tca> next, we have
<charlie-tca>  * start ML discussion on panels, reviews of current panels, launchers on panels, etc - Carried Forward
<charlie-tca> ochosi: did we start this?
<charlie-tca> and we are still calling for
<charlie-tca>  * All teams need to review website content
<charlie-tca>   * insure http://xubuntu.org/contribute is up to date for each team
<charlie-tca> If you have the ability to update anything there, please make corrections and email them to us. You can send updates to the xubuntu-devel mailing list, charlie-tca AT ubuntu DOT com or post them and give us the URL
<charlie-tca> Any questions? 
<charlie-tca> micahg: who do go to for  * we will look at getting pavucontrol in the sound preferences
<pleia2> re: contribute you can also submit a bug: https://bugs.launchpad.net/xubuntu-website
<jarnos> charlie-tca, when I started to use ubuntu, Xubuntu had easier-to-user panels and menu than Ubuntu, in my opinion.
<micahg> charlie-tca: desktop team I think
<charlie-tca> Are you handling this or me?
<micahg> I can do it, just not this week
<charlie-tca> jarnos: still does, but it is not as easy to customize
<charlie-tca> [ACTION] micahg will get with desktop-team about putting pavucontrol in the sound preferences
<meetingology> ACTION: micahg will get with desktop-team about putting pavucontrol in the sound preferences
<charlie-tca> Any questions on Old Business?
<micahg> o/
<charlie-tca> go ahead, micahg 
<micahg> charlie-tca: we're talkin about the sound menu, right?
<charlie-tca> yup
<charlie-tca> the thingy in indicators
<charlie-tca> at least, I think so
<charlie-tca> I don't have that anymore in Oneiric
<micahg> right, so that's going to require changes in pavucontrol to actually work most probably, so it's actually not so simple to just add, I guess I glossed over that last itme
<micahg> *time
<charlie-tca> oh
<charlie-tca> so, maybe we can't have it there
<micahg> the indicators work over dbus
<charlie-tca> But it is worth asking, isn't it?
<micahg> the question is does lennart have any interest in inidicators...
<charlie-tca> Maybe we should file a bug for it?
<charlie-tca> That might be the easiest way to deal with it
<micahg> yeah
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Team Updates
<meetingology> TOPIC: Team Updates
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Packaging & Development
<meetingology> TOPIC: Packaging & Development
<charlie-tca> mr_pouit or micahg : your turn
<micahg> so, mr_pouit got the indicators working in xubuntu oneiric again
<charlie-tca> yes!
<charlie-tca> live session is still broken
<charlie-tca> anything else exciting happening?
<micahg> yes, mr_pouit cleaned up that bug report so that the intent is clearer now
<micahg> I'll upload libgtk2-notify-perl later tonight, that's one of the few things holding libnotify1 on the CD
<micahg> I think that's it, we should probably try to confirm defaults for this cycle soon as feature freeze is 4 weeks away
<micahg> *as possible
<charlie-tca> (..)
<micahg> .. (sorry, forgot)
<charlie-tca> Np
<charlie-tca> it will take us a while to learn to use it, I think
<charlie-tca> um, Do we need to get pavucontrol and pastebinit in before feature freeze?
<charlie-tca> Also, file-roller vs xarchiver?
<micahg> file-roller is back and the problem with that was solved (dropped nautilus recommends)
<micahg> I think ideally we should even if we don't have a release impetus as then we get 2 months to make sure it's the right decision
<micahg> pavucontrol hasn't had a release in 2 yrs, there doesn't seem to be much upstream development, pastebinit is pretty active though
<charlie-tca> but pavucontrol works
<charlie-tca> Sometimes there is no need for further development, because things are working ;)
<micahg> true, but that's a downside if we want stuff like indicator support :0
<charlie-tca> oh, yeah, I guess it would be
<charlie-tca> Okay, maybe we just get it in defaults then
<charlie-tca> I can close the action item
<charlie-tca> Any questions for our esteemed developers?
<micahg> well, if we don't need indicator support and it works by itself, then we can include it
<charlie-tca> yup, it is working, and we don't *have* to have indicator support
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Bug Triage and Testing
<meetingology> TOPIC: Bug Triage and Testing
<charlie-tca> Many thanks to the testers for all their hard work. Alpha2 made it out the door
<charlie-tca> A big part of that is the daily testing we are doing. Alpha2 was a very difficult milestone to release, as can be seen by the flavours not releasing it.
<charlie-tca> We knew in advance where the worst issues were, and had workarounds for most of the issues.
<charlie-tca> Keep the bugs coming in, please
<charlie-tca> We are tracking the Oneiric bugs at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Bugs/OneiricOcelot
<charlie-tca> Any questions for Bugs and Testing?
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Website & Marketing
<meetingology> TOPIC: Website & Marketing
<charlie-tca> Any updates for the website?
<knome> nope, not right now,
<knome> but we're testing the imgcapt plugin
<knome> and hopefully soon the picslide plugin as well
<charlie-tca> o/
<knome> (hey)
<charlie-tca> I tried to test the plugin, but maybe I don't know how?
<charlie-tca> It doesn't seem to do anything for me
<charlie-tca> ..
<knome> do you have javascript disabled?
<charlie-tca> no, preferences says "Enable javascript" and that is checked
 * charlie-tca slaps himself...
<charlie-tca> Do I have to install java, too?
<knome> nope, you shouldn't need java
<knome> we can go through this after the meeting if you want
<charlie-tca> Iced-Tea plugin is installed
<charlie-tca> Anyone else try to test the imgcapt plugin?
<pleia2> yep, I sent knome some feedback earlier
<knome> pleia2, yup, i just read it, and i'll get back to you in a sec :)
<charlie-tca> okay, I will get with you, knome 
<knome> good
<pleia2> worked well for me, just some usability nitpicks :)
<charlie-tca> I am sure it is my settings, somehow. I seem to be able to make anything fail completely, these days.
<charlie-tca> Any other questions or comments for website?
<pleia2> I added a link to our artwork page to our marketing page last week, so now it should be easier to find the logos
<charlie-tca> Thank you so much for that!
<knome> still need to get through the website as well as the wiki page to make sure it's current
<charlie-tca> It is the little things that will help us.
<charlie-tca> +1 knome 
<charlie-tca> We need people to look over what is at http://xubuntu.org, please
<charlie-tca> If everybody here goes and looks it over, it will be pretty easy to get everything up to date.
<charlie-tca> ..
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Artwork and Documentation
<meetingology> TOPIC: Artwork and Documentation
<charlie-tca> plantoschka did a great job on the news release. Now we just need some blog articles we can add!
<charlie-tca> ochosi: are you around?
<plantoschka> thanks :)
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Announcements
<meetingology> TOPIC: Announcements
<charlie-tca>  * Ubuntu Developer Week happening all week, 16:00 to 20:00 UTC
<charlie-tca> Channel is #ubuntu-classroom and #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<charlie-tca> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDeveloperWeek/Sessions
<knome> does xubuntu have a session?
<charlie-tca> nope
<charlie-tca> I did not get around to it, and no one else volunteered
<knome> okay
<knome> i must have missed that :)
<charlie-tca> Important dates coming up:
<charlie-tca> 10.04.3 Release: July 21, 2011
<charlie-tca> 11.10 Alpha 3: August 4, 2011
<charlie-tca> 11.10 FeatureFreeze : August 11, 2011
<charlie-tca> 11.10 Release Date: October 13, 2011
<charlie-tca> We will not be releasing 10.04.3, but will be involved with testing Ubuntu.
<charlie-tca>  * The next meeting will be on Sunday, 2011-07-17 at 22:00 UTC
<charlie-tca> Thunderbird is now the default email client in Ubuntu, it has replaced Evolution
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Any Other Business
<meetingology> TOPIC: Any Other Business
<charlie-tca> Anything anyone wants to discuss?
<charlie-tca> Let's welcome beardygnome back; it has been a while since he was here!
<charlie-tca> ..
<beardygnome> cheers charlie - been busy working on the new house
<beardygnome> building sheds, bookcases etc
<beardygnome> hoping to get back into some geek stuff now ;-)
<beardygnome> ..
<knome> building applications, code etc?
<charlie-tca> huh?
<knome> nvm :)
<charlie-tca> sure :)
<knome> (from building sheds to building apps...)
<charlie-tca> ah!
<charlie-tca> Anything ?
<charlie-tca> Let's go ahead and finish up then. I will all you good people on Sunday.
<charlie-tca> Thanks for attending the meeting. Your participation is absolutely necessary to the welfare of Xubuntu!
<charlie-tca> #endmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Jul 11 20:09:08 2011 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell . (v 0.1.4)
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://mootbot.libertus.co.uk/xubuntu-devel/2011/xubuntu-devel.2011-07-11-19.02.moin.txt
<astraljava> Your meetings are much more coherent than ours. :)
<charlie-tca> We been at it longer
<charlie-tca> Besides, I pretend I know what I am doing, too ;)
<astraljava> Heheh. :)
<knome> pleia2, huh, that became a long email :)
<pleia2> :)
<knome> anyway, it should have answered anything you asked, and anything you might have asked after that, if i only asked for the questions you asked
<charlie-tca> so, knome. You do know I am the only person to find two websites now that I can't see?
<charlie-tca> I get completely blank pages for them...
<knome> :o
<knome> what are those websites?
<charlie-tca> http://ubuntuhowto.org/
<charlie-tca> any link on the page will give me a blank page
<charlie-tca> the other was the the status pages for Ubuntu, they fixed that now
<knome> i'm getting a blank-looking page too
<knome> it looks like the content is under some kind of white block
<charlie-tca> Oh, good. It is not just me then
<knome> so did you manage to login to the demosite?
<charlie-tca> yup
<charlie-tca> but then nothing happened
<knome> charlie-tca, adding " .entry-content { width: 100%; } " to the CSS on ubuntuhowto.org fixes the bug for me
<knome> charlie-tca, okay, so after you've logged in, you need to go to "imgcapt", find it in the left side navigation
<charlie-tca> okay'
<knome> now you can either try to edit any of the existing images, or add new
<knome> to add new, there's a button in the top. to edit, hover the table row and an "edit" -link appears
<knome> (the by default hidden edit-fields is WP default)
<knome> err, edit-links :)
<charlie-tca> well, slap me with a wet trout
<knome> is there something that is not working? :)
<charlie-tca> no
<charlie-tca> Thank you
<knome> no problem
<GridCube> when is the next community meeting?
<micahg> GridCube: sunday 22:00 UTC
<GridCube> O_o not today?
<charlie-tca> Was today at 19:00 UTC, about 5 hours ago
<GridCube> D: wow
<charlie-tca> or maybe 4 hours ago, it is 22:51 UTC now
<GridCube> yes i see, my internal clock was wrong i though it was 19:00 in my time 
<GridCube> XD
<GridCube> well to check the logs then :)
<charlie-tca> We got a new meeting bot, and the logs are pretty nice now. 
<charlie-tca> http://mootbot.libertus.co.uk/xubuntu-devel/2011/xubuntu-devel.2011-07-11-19.02.moin.txt
<GridCube> i still like the irclogs htmls :P whit pretty colors are easier to read
 * charlie-tca nods
<charlie-tca> but this is still better the pure irc channel log
<GridCube> :D
<Unit193> I missed the entire meeting and there is nothing in scroll back :(
<pleia2> Unit193: http://mootbot.libertus.co.uk/xubuntu-devel/2011/xubuntu-devel.2011-07-11-19.02.moin.txt :)
#xubuntu-devel 2011-07-12
<pleia2> or pretty https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings/Archive/Minutes/2011-07-11
<Unit193> pleia2: Thanks, I read the first one (after a lockup :/ )
<GridCube> >The requested URL /xubuntu-devel/2011/xubuntu-devel.2011-07-11-19.02.log.html was not found on this server.
<GridCube> thats on the dev ml
<charlie-tca> mr_pouit: email sent for Xubuntu Team; may have sent to the ML by mistake, though
<charlie-tca> no desktop images today; alternate images are available for testing
* ChanServ changed the topic of #xubuntu-devel to: Xubuntu Development | Want to get involved? See: http://xubuntu.org/contribute | #xubuntu for support, #xubuntu-offtopic for general discussion | Schedule: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/OneiricReleaseSchedule | Wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu | Oneiric Desktop images are broken
<charlie-tca> All testers: Can now tell in the topic here if the images are working
<micahg> charlie-tca: yep, went to ML :)
<charlie-tca> Going to be a l-o-n-g week, then
<charlie-tca> Hope mr_pouit knows he can respond without including the ML, too :(
<charlie-tca> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDeveloperWeek Day 2 starting in 12 minutes in #ubuntu-classroom 
<Unit193> Atleast I know now I can't vote for the next Lead :P (And for something I should try for later)
<charlie-tca> um, why not join the team?
<charlie-tca> testing is a contribution that counts
 * micahg preemptively votes for charlie-tca as project lead
<charlie-tca> I guess you call that transparency, huh?
<micahg> indeed
<Unit193> Did everyone see this and I'm just really late to the viewing? http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1767896
<ochosi> thanks for pointing to that Unit193, hadn't seen that before
<pleia2> aw, that is nice :)
<ochosi> yup, it is :)
<ochosi> pleia2: think it would be good to reply
<pleia2> yeah, I think so
<pleia2> the OP is still an active member and I think he'd be happy to know that devs saw it
<pleia2> active member of the forums
<ochosi> mhm
<charlie-tca> Not all of us read the forums
<charlie-tca> but that is really neat!
<charlie-tca> All you guys really did do a fantastic job on 11.04.
<Unit193> Yes they did! And it looks like I wasn't late to the party this time!
#xubuntu-devel 2011-07-13
<charlie-tca> wayland had hit oneiric universe repository
<charlie-tca> s/had/has
<Unit193> Eh, I'm not so sure that's a good thing. Thanks very much for telling me (us)
<pleia2> people said the same thing about xorg :)
<charlie-tca> good/bad/indifferent, it is there to play with.
<Unit193> You would need an addon for ssh -X wouldn't you?
<charlie-tca> I don't know. I thought the only missing stuff was for remote gui's using xserver
 * charlie-tca slaps himself with the wet trout
<charlie-tca> I guess that would be, huh?
<Unit193> That's it! I do use that one...
<micahg> charlie-tca: wayland was in natty (although it didn't work)
<charlie-tca> I didn't know that
<micahg> !info wayland natty
<charlie-tca> Don't know if it works now either
<ubottu> wayland (source: wayland): display server -- A nano, non-X11 graphical display server. In component universe, is optional. Version 0.1~git20110214.e4762a6a-0ubuntu1 (natty), package size 150 kB, installed size 532 kB
<micahg> the necessary cairo pieces were disabled in natty so as not to break everything else
<charlie-tca> looks like the same package, too
<micahg> yep
<micahg> except now it came through Debian :)
<charlie-tca> Thanks
<charlie-tca> UDW (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDeveloperWeek) day 3 starting in 6 minutes in #ubuntu-classroom
#xubuntu-devel 2011-07-14
<astraljava> Hey! a desktop image! :D
* ChanServ changed the topic of #xubuntu-devel to: Xubuntu Development | Want to get involved? See: http://xubuntu.org/contribute | #xubuntu for support, #xubuntu-offtopic for general discussion | Schedule: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/OneiricReleaseSchedule | Wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu | Oneiric images are available today
<charlie-tca> images are available today, but a bit oversized
<GridCube> :) im at work today :P and later i will go and watch harry potter whit my brother and nieces, :D so i'll test tomorrow maybe
<charlie-tca> Ubuntu Developer Week Day 4 starting in 25 minutes in #ubuntu-classroom 
<charlie-tca> (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDeveloperWeek)                           
<charlie-tca> Okay, we do need to try those desktop images ASAP, since we haven't had one in a week
<charlie-tca> If they are broken tomorrow, they probably won't get fixed until Tuesday again
<GridCube> :/ i mostly do alternate test, i dont even have a desktop image
<charlie-tca> oh
<charlie-tca> okay
<charlie-tca> I will go try to run the desktop images today
<GridCube> i can download a desktop image tomorrow and start using both
<astraljava> Can't get the desktop image to install. :-/
<astraljava> On virtualbox, at least. Will try over the weekend on real hardware.
<charlie-tca> Using the install from the cd menu?
<astraljava> charlie-tca: Yes.
<charlie-tca> Oh, goody
<charlie-tca> I will tonight
<charlie-tca> I can try both 32 and 64bit in VBox
<astraljava> I'm doing the alternate 64-bit guided whole disk now.
<astraljava> Bah!
<astraljava> Didn't check the spreadsheet!"
<charlie-tca> that's okay. The desktop images need to be done for all installs, if we can
<charlie-tca> Mark any tests you do, whether they are "TEST" or not, please. It all helps
<charlie-tca> The whole purpose of the spreadsheet is to make sure we don't do the same tests everyday, and seldom do the others
<astraljava> charlie-tca: Okay, makes sense, really.
<astraljava> Wonder if anyone else has problems in logging in to an alternate install. I choose "Other...", and my username, and it still refures to give me even tha password prompt.
<astraljava> Now if I first chose "Other...", then typed my username, it gave me the password prompt. But didn't log me in, instead started the authentication from the start again.
<astraljava> Hey! Now it works!
<astraljava> "System program problem detected!" :)
<knome> you call that "works" ?
<astraljava> knome: /me chuckles
<astraljava> lightdm-example-gtk-greeter and Update Manager both crashed.
<astraljava> Oops! According to apport, libcups2 is obsolete!
<knome> just a normal oops, not a kerneloops?
<astraljava> Just what the GUI gives me, not real kerneloops. Just poor wording from my side, sorry!
<knome> ;)
<astraljava> knome: Did you have something to do with prog music, or am I thinking of a wrong finn?
<knome> i probably do :)
<knome> for some reason, i'm not *progressing* with this css at all now
<astraljava> knome: Right. Coolness. Check http://last.fm/user/astraljava, and get back to me if any of the bands ring a bell, and want to discuss or anything.
<knome> heh
<astraljava> Haha, developing can be such a hassle at times.
<knome> i suppose i'm  not *that* prog
<knome> but i do enjoy bands like kingston wall and wigwam
<astraljava> They're both pretty cool!
<knome> also some porcupine tree
<knome> i can listen to a wide variety of prog without getting annoyed
<knome> and i think that's kind of much
<knome> i like a bit of pain of salvation as well
<knome> ha, you have one play of fivestar prophet ;P
<knome> i like the canada/montreal scene quite a lot, if that can be called "prog"
<ochosi> hm, just tested the overlay scrollbars with the latest greybird (both in natty), that works like a breeze and even looks quite well
<knome> hey ochosi 
<ochosi> hey pasi
<micahg> ochosi: there was a new overlay scrollbars release in oneiric today
<ochosi> micahg: oh right. hm. i guess that's a good signal. should dl alpha2
<ochosi> meh, still 50% left
<astraljava> ochosi: Couldn't get the desktop image to install, alternate seemed to work, but had some severe problems.
<charlie-tca> astraljava: that cups bug was fixed today, should be in tomorrows images
<ochosi> astraljava: darn, just downloaded the desktop-image :/
<astraljava> charlie-tca: Good to hear, will download during the office hours tomorrow, and test during the weekend.
<charlie-tca> great
<charlie-tca> Thanks for testing today
<charlie-tca> ochosi: desktop image ain't worked since alpha2, I would go with the alternate image instead
<astraljava> knome: Porcupine Tree is awesome, as is Pain of Salvation (one of my absolute top heroes!). No idea about the Montreal scene, but I happen to like Protest the Hero and HevyDevy from the Land of the Maple Tree. :D
<knome> astraljava, does bands like godspeed you black emperor and/or silver mt. zion say anything?
<astraljava> knome: I have heard the former, but not so sure about the latter.
<knome> astraljava, try them: http://cstrecords.com/cst063/
<ochosi> charlie-tca: read that just now (after it was too late) :(
<astraljava> knome: Okay, I put them on so they'll be playing while I'll fall asleep. :)
<knome> astraljava, gybe probably fits the "prog" definition better
<knome> haha
<knome> if you can ;)
<astraljava> Yeah, that will have a stance on how good they are. :)
<charlie-tca> ochosi: We track installs daily now at http://2tu.us/3ebn
<astraljava> knome: What's gybe?
<astraljava> Ahh..
<knome> yup ;)
<astraljava> Sorry, I'm being slow.
<knome> no problem
<knome> silver mt zion has also been "thee silver mt. zion memorial orchestra & tra-la-la band with choir"
<knome> but "silver mt zion" or just "smz" is a bit easier...
<astraljava> Heh. :)
<knome> and eh, two of the band members have a baby, called "steamtrain"
<Unit193> Dang sister is doing school on the computer that can handle VBox the best :/
<Unit193> s/doing school/still doing school/g
<charlie-tca> It happens... just means you don't get to use it yet ;)
<astraljava> knome: Hilarious! :D
<knome> astraljava, yes, in a way... :)
<knome> astraljava, so how's the music itself?
<astraljava> knome: It's a bit challenging, meaning it's not overly melodic, at least from the vocal lines POV, but I'll give it chances. It's interesting, overall.
<knome> maybe check the other albums too
<knome> they've changed their style in the making :)
<astraljava> knome: I'll check during the working day whether they've got stuff on Spotify.
<knome> i suppose not, but you can listen them through the constellation website :)
<astraljava> Oh okay, that'll work too.
<astraljava> I tend to prefer apps that can scrobble to last.fm :)
<knome> yeah..
<Unit193> Sadly I only know a windows program that does that with Pandora
<astraljava> Unit193: rhythmbox does it, xmms did it (with a plugin) so I assume it's successor (sorry forgot the name) does it, Spotify does it etc. :)
<Unit193> Plays from pandora and scrobbles to Last.fm?
<astraljava> Unit193: Sorry, don't know what Pandora is...
<Unit193> astraljava: Really?? "Pandora radio is the personalized internet radio service that helps you find new music based on your old and current favorites."
<knome> okay, i think i'm going to bed
<knome> see you all later
<knome> good night!
<Unit193> LIttle late to say "Night!"...
#xubuntu-devel 2011-07-15
<pchosi> right. finally testing out oneiric in a real install
<pchosi> hm, the gtk3 theme really is *very* basic (and partially really bad)
 * pchosi slaps ochosi for not trying harder yet
<charlie-tca> 64bit Xubuntu Desktop image refuses to start the installer
<dtchen> fun.
<charlie-tca> first image in a week
<charlie-tca> I will tackle it tomorrow, too late tonight
<dtchen> yeah, I need to head offline myself
<charlie-tca> Glad to see you once in a while again
<dtchen> ditto
<Unit193> Without being rude, who was he?
<charlie-tca> dtchen - a long time ago was the audio trouble-shooter for Ubuntu
<charlie-tca> Probably one of the best people in open source on audio stuff
<Unit193> Wow... Didn't know that! Any idea why he hangs around here (Not that I care, I'm just wondering!)
<charlie-tca> also was a kernel developer for a few years, I think.
<charlie-tca> He likes us
 * charlie-tca shrugs
<micahg> nice guy :)
<charlie-tca> I don't really know, but I like having him around
<charlie-tca> Xubuntu i386 desktop images also fail to start the installer
<charlie-tca> micahg: you aware we are very oversize again?
<charlie-tca> (includes all images, alternate and desktop)
<charlie-tca> well, I got to go get some sleep/rest tonight. See all you good people tomorrow!
<charlie-tca> save
 * micahg saw the size...
<astraljava> Yeah, Dan (dtchen) is one of the fellows who are helpful wherever they appear. :)
 * Unit193 will learn to hide in the corner when important people show up
<astraljava> Unit193: Haha! No, that's not how it goes. You get vocal, ask questions etc. That's how the wisdom is passed on. :)
<astraljava> Hmm, did anyone else test alternate installs? I'm puzzled, because on the test spreadsheet, there's an entry that says "does not allow entry of password or selection of session"
<astraljava> It works for me, though.
<Unit193> My sister was doing a lot of college stuff and I couldn't really do it
<astraljava> Sure no prob, just wanted some confirmation. But I marked my results in the sheet, I'll ask charlie when he comes in.
<charlie-tca> Good morning
<micahg> hi charlie-tca 
<micahg> I saw the oversizedness, will try to look at it next week
<charlie-tca> It probably won't matter, we still have no usable destkop session
<charlie-tca> s/destkop/desktop
<micahg> right, until the option to override the lightdm config at install time happens
<charlie-tca> yes, and we have about 4 more bugs on hold for that
<charlie-tca> I am pushing that in the release team meeting, too
<beardygnome> test
<charlie-tca> test here too?
<astraljava> I will test tomorrow, way too exhausted now. :D
<astraljava> Well, actually today, as it's way past midnight already.
<charlie-tca> Thanks for testing yesterday/early today
<charlie-tca> I am glad you got it to work
<astraljava> charlie-tca: Yeah, wondered what that was all about. So you couldn't log in at all using the alternate?
<charlie-tca> nope, I got locked into a lightdm loop
<astraljava> charlie-tca: I just hit Other..., presented my username, chose session Xubuntu, typed my password, and in I went.
<charlie-tca> everytime I click on my user name, it looped
<astraljava> Nasty.
<astraljava> Ahh...
<charlie-tca> I didn't try Other, just my user
<astraljava> Yeah, that won't work.
<micahg> charlie-tca: probably bug 809890
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 809890 in lightdm (Ubuntu) "lightdm-example-gtk-greeter crashed with SIGSEGV in __strcmp_ssse3()" [Critical,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/809890
<charlie-tca> yup
<charlie-tca> Fortunately, it doesn't affect this system
<charlie-tca> Let's get our applications together for sponsorship to Orlando for UDS! 
<charlie-tca> http://www.jonobacon.org/2011/07/15/ubuntu-developer-summit-sponsorship-now-open-2/
 * micahg hopes to see you all there
<dtchen> likely won't be there but deployed again
<charlie-tca> Oh, man
 * Unit193 also won't be there
<charlie-tca> Well, work comes first
 * micahg wishes dtchen well
 * charlie-tca will apply, and be thinking of dtchen
<astraljava> I'd love to be there, but I doubt I get sponsoring anywhere.
<charlie-tca> you are an important tester, also a big part of UbuntuStudio. You have a good chance if you apply
<astraljava> Well if you and Scott could praise me to death, then maybe. :D
<dtchen> I'm happy to toss in my rec.
<Unit193> astraljava: I'm sure you could make it with UbuntuStudio AND Xubuntu :)
<dtchen> also, if you haven't been before, that's a point step
<Unit193> I would think it would be mostly for devs anyway...
<astraljava> Dan, seriously? Cool! Thanks a bunch!
<astraljava> No, I never went before.
<dtchen> Unit193: it's a development-focused (daytime, at least :-) conference, but it isn't mostly for developers. There's a healthy contingent of non-developers from the wider Ubuntu community represented.
<Unit193> Thank you. I know someone that has gone as a non-dev, but I thought it was mostly, guess I'm wrong again :)
<micahg> Unit193: it's for requirements gathering, the devs come to moderate some of the discussion, but non-dev input is welcome and desired
<charlie-tca> um, I am not a developer...
<charlie-tca> I am not a coder or packager, either
<micahg> charlie-tca: you're a project lead :)
<charlie-tca> Well, there is that
<charlie-tca> But I have gone twice as qa, instead
<micahg> k, that's important input too
<micahg> it's all important
<charlie-tca> I agree. You have to blow your own horn in Ubuntu to be noticed and get things done
<Unit193> Don't you also do accessability?
<charlie-tca> well, yeah
<charlie-tca> I guess I do
<charlie-tca> I forget about a lot of stuff, sometimes
<Unit193> There is also the age factor :P
<charlie-tca> hm, forgot that too, huh?
<Unit193> *I wouldn't get a sponsor because of it
<dtchen> you'd have to be younger than 17.
<Unit193> Well, I'll be 18 by the time the images are fixed...
<micahg> right, sense was sponsored last year to orlando
<micahg> mr_pouit: I'll take the xfce4-indicator-plugin merge unless you want to do it
<micahg> mr_pouit: I can also take the libdesktop-agnostic merge
#xubuntu-devel 2011-07-16
 * micahg wishes everyone a good weekend
<GridCube> :D ok now i have a desktop image
<ochosi> Announcement: finally compiz-support in greybird (emerald theme pushed today)
<GridCube> nice
<GridCube> mmm where is the current desktop image?
<GridCube> for testing?
<GridCube> i can find alpha2 but its not zsyncking
#xubuntu-devel 2011-07-17
<ochosi> yet another announcement: http://shimmerproject.org/2011/07/a-good-weekend-in-window-managers/
<charlie-tca> Good Morning
<charlie-tca> We have images, and they are mostly working
<charlie-tca> Xubuntu community meeting today at 22:00 UTC
<charlie-tca> mr_pouit: I will track down didrocks or RAOF tonite/tomorrow to try and get the live sessions fixed
<mr_pouit> o hai
<mr_pouit> no need to track didrocks
<charlie-tca> no?
<mr_pouit> yeah, we're only waiting for the x11-common upload
<charlie-tca> okay
<charlie-tca> Thanks
<charlie-tca> I caused a bit of a stir in the release meeting about it
<mr_pouit> yeah, well Robert replied with not so useful comments two days ago, so I won't wait for him to reply again and do differently
<charlie-tca> I saw that
<charlie-tca> I was talking about bug 804734, which they sent upstream
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 804734 in xorg (Ubuntu) "Please ship 60xdg_path-on-session like gdm" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/804734
<charlie-tca> I want the fix now, now when they get the upstream to push it back to us
<charlie-tca> s/now/not
<charlie-tca> A fix that goes upstream to xorg doesn't mean we will even see it this release
<mr_pouit> ah ok. For this one, didrocks convinced RAOF to ship it in xorg, so yeah, you can try to track him (= RAOF) down
<mr_pouit> btw, I received your mails, but no time to reply yet :>
<charlie-tca> I sent a new one this morning. I have to fix my own mistake about the teams
<charlie-tca> project lead picks from Xubuntu Team for the council, right?
<charlie-tca> so, to get a council set up eventually, I have to build the Xubuntu Team properly first
<charlie-tca> I am trying to get this stuff straightened out the best we can, before it is time to pick another leader. 
<charlie-tca> bug 811909, lightdm won't allow the user to login selecting name. Must select "Other..." and enter that user name, then password.
<ubottu> Error: Launchpad bug 811909 could not be found
<charlie-tca> Xubuntu community meeting in #xubuntu-devel in 35 minutes. Everyone is invited to attend. Agenda is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings
<GridCube> :D
<GridCube> charlie-tca, i downloaded the desktop from torrent.ubuntu.com but there is only alpha2 and no current :(
<GridCube> i can't do testings if i dont have the current image XD
<charlie-tca> right
<charlie-tca> daily images are not in torrent
<charlie-tca> you have to grab them from http://cdimages.ubuntu.com/xubuntu/
<GridCube> yeah i figured that out, yeap
<Unit193> charlie-tca: Desktop fixed and working?
 * charlie-tca thinks zsync... ;)
<charlie-tca> no
<charlie-tca> it installs, though, from the menu
<charlie-tca> then you have to pick "other..." as user, enter the real user name and password
<Unit193> In that case, I was right! I'm 18 before the CDs are fixed! :P
<charlie-tca> or you can not login
<GridCube> woah since alpha2 about 50% of the image has changed
<charlie-tca> of course. That changed as soon as they got an image
<charlie-tca> (it did take over a week to get an image, too)
<GridCube> its nice to know you people work so hard :D
<Unit193> You can tell that by just looking at the final Xubuntu!
 * micahg tries to get the indicator merge done before the meeting
<charlie-tca> Thanks, micahg 
<mr_pouit> huhu nice, so we'll have something to say for "development" :P
<micahg> ugh, I didn't realize it was going to be this messy...
<charlie-tca> heh, mr_pouit can always say "we did a lot of small things that made life easier on the users"
<micahg> mr_pouit: maybe you should take this, I don't entirely understand everything that xubuntu_exclude-modules.patch does
<charlie-tca> or maybe "that will make life easier for the users"
<charlie-tca> Um, meeting in 2 minutes, right?
 * micahg tries the other merge quickly
<micahg> I actually got libgtk2-notify-perl ported to libnotify4 so the only thing holding libnotify1 on th CD is transmission
<charlie-tca> which we need for torrents?
<micahg> yeah, but it's in the desktop set, they haven't done anything with it this cycle though
<charlie-tca> Is everybody for a meeting today?
<charlie-tca> pushy, pushy
<charlie-tca> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Sun Jul 17 22:01:18 2011 UTC.  The chair is charlie-tca. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell.
<meetingology> Useful Commands: #topic #action #link #idea #voters #vote #chair #action #agreed #help #info #endmeeting.
<GridCube> :D
<charlie-tca> The full agenda for today's meeting is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings
<charlie-tca> we will be following :
<charlie-tca> * Old business
<charlie-tca> * Team updates
<charlie-tca>   * Packaging & Development
<charlie-tca>   * Bug Triage & Testing
<charlie-tca>   * Website & Marketing
<charlie-tca>   * Artwork
<charlie-tca>   * Documentation
<charlie-tca> * Announcements
<charlie-tca> * Governance structure
<charlie-tca> * Any Other Business
<charlie-tca>  and, in the interests of being common, we will try
<charlie-tca> Reminder:   please use ".." on separate line when you've finished typing.   If someone wants to comment during the updates, please "o/", so we know to wait.
<charlie-tca> again
<charlie-tca> [topic] === Old Business ===
<meetingology> TOPIC: === Old Business ===
<charlie-tca>  * micahg to find what Ubuntu-desktop does with java in restricted-extras - Carried Forward
<charlie-tca> any change?
<micahg> nope
<charlie-tca> this week?
<charlie-tca> GridCube: go ahead and put together your best effort top 10, please
<micahg> charlie-tca: yes
<GridCube> :) ok will do it as soon as i get pass my exams
<charlie-tca> [ACTION] GridCube to put together a top 10 FAQ for the website
<meetingology> ACTION: GridCube to put together a top 10 FAQ for the website
<charlie-tca> * start ML discussion on panels, reviews of current panels, launchers on panels, etc - Carried Forward
<GridCube> (that be next week)
<charlie-tca> any action of the reviews?
<GridCube> charlie-tca, can i ask what "Carried Foward" means?
<charlie-tca> means we did not do it yet
<GridCube> oh, okay
<charlie-tca> ochosi: go ahead and remove app finder from the launcher. Seems to be the only change I know of
<charlie-tca>  * All teams need to review website content - Carried Forward
<charlie-tca>   * insure http://xubuntu.org/contribute is up to date for each team
<charlie-tca>    * send updates to the xubuntu-devel mailing list
<charlie-tca>    * charlie-tca AT ubuntu DOT com
<charlie-tca>    * post them and give us the URL
<ochosi> charlie-tca: what exactly do you mean?
<charlie-tca>    * submit a bug: https://bugs.launchpad.net/xubuntu-website
<charlie-tca> Have done all the reviews?
<charlie-tca> you wanted a review of the launchers. Let's remove app finder from the launcher panel
<ochosi> ah ok, well but you're aware of the fact that appfinder and xfrun will be merged?
<ochosi> (or are already merged in fact iirc)
<charlie-tca> I don't know if anyone else uses it, but I find snapshot to be most helpful in the panel
<charlie-tca> what will that merge do?
<ochosi> https://wiki.xfce.org/design/appfinder
<charlie-tca> doesn't xfrun get run with Alt+F2?
<ochosi> i know it's a bit of a long read
<beardygnome> charlie-tca: what's snapshot? a screen capture app?
<charlie-tca> yup
<ochosi> yes, but now with alt+f2 you'll get something almost as cool as gnome-do
<ochosi> you can start apps with autocomplete and you can expand the small launcher to get categories
<charlie-tca> I have no idea what gnome-do is, so that didn't help
<beardygnome> ochosi: that's coming in xfce 4.10 right?
<ochosi> i already tried it here (think the separate git-branch recently got merged)
<charlie-tca> how is that going to matter if application finder is in the launcher panel?
<ochosi> beardygnome: well that's not really how xfce's release policy is working. they're doing individual components' releases now
<beardygnome> so the merged app will be in 11.10?
<ochosi> charlie-tca: it's just a bit of a different application now and i wanted to ask whether those doing the review where taking this into account, that's all
<ochosi> beardygnome: that's what i'd assume
<beardygnome> cool, i might then be able to ditch gnome-do....
<charlie-tca> right now, to take a screenshot, you open Menu -> Accessories -> Screenshot. I find it much more convenient to click a launcher on my panels
<beardygnome> charlie-tca: what about "Print Screen"? 
<charlie-tca> ochosi: you never sent the email to the ML for the review
<charlie-tca> I can never remember the keypresses I want. I guess screenshot is fine the way it is
<ochosi> charlie-tca: yeah sorry, forgot about that
<charlie-tca> * start ML discussion on panels, reviews of current panels, launchers on panels, etc - Carried Forward
<beardygnome> charlie-tca: "Print Screen" opens screenshot for me
<charlie-tca> well, then we are doing the review, right/
<beardygnome> which is quicker than a panel button imo
<charlie-tca> without knowing all the ins and outs of the chagnes, and referring to something I never use, it is really hard to discuss intelligently.
<charlie-tca> I do remember something about xfrun gonna be more like gnome-do, now. IT made as much sense then as it does now. 
<charlie-tca> without knowing gnome-do, that was a pretty worthless message to me
<ochosi> charlie-tca: i don't mind if the majority thinks appfinder should be removed from there. i just wanted to let you know about the changes and if you (or those who are doing the review) want to know the details i guess it'd be best to read the wikipage i linked to
<charlie-tca> any other changes we want to make to the panels?
<charlie-tca> any questions so far?
<charlie-tca> ochosi: sounds like it is all good
<ochosi> k
<charlie-tca> Has everyone reviewed the website?
<GridCube> no, not really
<beardygnome> charlie-tca: are there plans to add more news items?
<charlie-tca> Let's get that done this week, please
<charlie-tca> yes, if someone writes them, beardygnome 
<beardygnome> could we pull in news from xfce or ubuntu, for example?
<charlie-tca> We would like all the content there now reviewed, to make sure it is up-to-date and pertinent
<charlie-tca> We won't pull from Ubuntu, since that is alll on the planet feed already
<charlie-tca> pleia2: around?
<charlie-tca> knome: here?
<GridCube> I wonder, would that "up to date" be LTS or 11.04?
<charlie-tca> we will make a note to get an answer, beardygnome 
<charlie-tca> I think pulling from Xfce would be interesting, myself.
<charlie-tca> both, GridCube 
<charlie-tca> They apply to different audiences, but both would be current
<GridCube> ok
<GridCube> that makes sense
<Unit193> As has been noted, we need new screenshots for upgrades
<GridCube> i still use 10.04
<charlie-tca> Can anybody get us good screenshots?
<charlie-tca> looking for a volunteer here...
<GridCube> i can give you screenshot of 10.04 whit greybird
<Unit193> I don't know about "good", but I can do one in a VM
<ochosi> charlie-tca: what kind of screenshots do you want/need?
<beardygnome> do they have to be stock xubuntu?
<charlie-tca> yes, since that is the product
<charlie-tca> ochosi: replace bluebird on the website?
<GridCube> oh, whats the "stock" theme for 10.04?
<GridCube> albatros?
<ochosi> charlie-tca: where exactly?
<charlie-tca> I don't know
<charlie-tca> where ever pleia2 wants them
<ochosi> hm, i think i already did that tbh
<ochosi> greybird is on the front-page and the tour
<ochosi> those are the screenshots that pleia2 requested back then
<GridCube> i can do a few screenshots of 10.04 whit standard themes, and whit up to date greybird too
<beardygnome> I could do some screenshots from a vm, but my installs are pretty customised
<charlie-tca> Unit193: any idea?
<ochosi> i just looked through the website a bit and i can
<ochosi> 't find any not up-to-date screenshots
<beardygnome> do you want comments to the ML?
<charlie-tca> I think they removed a few, because they were so out of date, but I tend to stay away
<charlie-tca> beardygnome: for?
<charlie-tca> yes
<beardygnome> the website?
<Unit193> charlie-tca: http://xubuntu.org/getubuntu will tell you how to upgrade with old screenshots
<charlie-tca> as posted above, I will put the ways to send comments in the minutes, too
<charlie-tca> GridCube: apparently, not 10.04
<charlie-tca> ochosi: note Unit193's comment?
<ochosi> Unit193: hm, true. yeah i guess those should be replaced (even if it's not a usability isse)
<GridCube> as said i can screenshot the update manager asking me to update to 10.10
<charlie-tca> It does reflect on the project, overall, though. 
<Unit193> If you want 10.10 > 11.04, I can install it in a VM
<charlie-tca> I think 10.10 to 11.04, since that is the current release
<charlie-tca> or shoot both and let pleia2 decide what to use
<charlie-tca> [ACTION] GridCube and Unit193 to get screenshots for the website
<meetingology> ACTION: GridCube and Unit193 to get screenshots for the website
<GridCube> oh, also im on a spaÃ±ish setup :/ don't know if that changes things
<charlie-tca> only the words
<GridCube> oh, well then i will do it
<charlie-tca> Any other discussion / questions on anything covered so far?
<Unit193> Bug #784158
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 784158 in Xubuntu Website "xubuntu.org/getubuntu has old screenshots" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/784158
<GridCube> i want to ask something to ochosi regerding the themes
<charlie-tca> old business or new?
<GridCube> new
<charlie-tca> let's hold it for artwork then, okay?
<GridCube> ok
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] === Team updates ===
<meetingology> TOPIC: === Team updates ===
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Packaging and Development
<meetingology> TOPIC: Packaging and Development
<charlie-tca> mr_pouit: your turn, please
<mr_pouit> eh, so nothing new this week
<GridCube> o/
<mr_pouit> waiting on some uploads to happen (x11-common)
<charlie-tca> GridCube: go ahead
<GridCube> can we change gimp to something smaller/simplier?
<mr_pouit> (merge of the newer xfce4-indicator-plugin release that fixes transparency in progress)
<charlie-tca> That's important!
<ochosi> mr_pouit: i'm also looking forward to the new session-menu/action-buttons merge
<charlie-tca> GridCube: you can send that one to the mailing list with suggestions as to what to use?
<GridCube> oh okay
<GridCube> i propose gnu paint
<charlie-tca> ML - SUBJECT possible change from gimp
<GridCube> :)
<charlie-tca> mr_pouit: go ahead
<mr_pouit> sorry, that's all :p
<charlie-tca> I will say thank you to both micahg and mr_pouit for all their work getting Oneiric together. 
<charlie-tca> This is going to a fun ride...
<GridCube> :D i second
<micahg> mr_pouit: well, we're down to 1 rdepend on libnotify1, which should get sorted this week (transmission -> 2.32)
<charlie-tca> Thank you, mr_pouit. 
<charlie-tca> any questions for development?
<mr_pouit> micahg: yay :)
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Bug Triage & Testing
<meetingology> TOPIC: Bug Triage & Testing
<charlie-tca> Testing had a bad week, since there were images until Thursday
<charlie-tca> We will try to pick up again this week
<charlie-tca> I am going to skip Website and Marketing for now
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Artwork
<meetingology> TOPIC: Artwork
<charlie-tca> ochosi: your the person!
<ochosi> hmkay, guess it's my turn
<ochosi> last week was pretty productive
<ochosi> i tackled a few things on my todo-list
<ochosi> mostly window-manager related
<ochosi>  * finished the compact xfwm4 theme (good as alternative for netbooks etc., 18px height instead of 24px)
<ochosi>  * added full support for compiz (emerald and metacity themes)
<ochosi> i also looked into gtk3 again in oneiric, have a working install here now. but tbh it's still pretty much a mess
<ochosi> the unico engine seems unfinished and buggy
<ochosi> i guess i'll postpone doing a real gtk3 port of greybird to some later stage
<charlie-tca> ochosi: nice news post
<GridCube> :D very nice indeed
<ochosi> i also wrote a short blog article on shimmerproject.org
<ochosi> if xubuntu.org gets easier to handle i can crosspost those kinds of articles there as well
<charlie-tca> We still have hopes
<ochosi> :)
<micahg> ochosi: keep in mind that ideally for release, we should have a GTK3 theme so that we have a uniform look for all the apps (GTK2 & GTK3)
<ochosi> micahg: it's hard to not keep that in mind if you're really testing oneiric
<charlie-tca> Will we have to ship two themes, then?
<ochosi> charlie-tca: no, it'll all be in the greybird-folder/package
<charlie-tca> we are washing out some of the plugins in the panel, now
<micahg> charlie-tca: no, the desktop team has a gateway that can use a GTK3 theme in GTK2
<ochosi> charlie-tca: but on a technical level, yes, it will be two different themes (doubling the maintenance work for me :( )
<charlie-tca> timer, clipman
<micahg> ochosi: no, it shouldn't
<ochosi> micahg: a gateway?
<beardygnome> charlie-tca: washing out?
 * micahg forgets what it's called
<charlie-tca> making them invisible again, beardygnome 
<micahg> ochosi: some type of theme proxy
<ochosi> micahg: well, let me know about this, it sounds interesting (but also a bit scary)
<beardygnome> so they appear in the indicator plugin instead?
<ochosi> micahg: can't really imagine something like this will 100% work
<charlie-tca> they don't appear, just take up space
<charlie-tca> ochosi: I did see something on that. I just don't remember where
<micahg> ochosi: well, the desktop team needed it since not everything will be ported to GTK3
<ochosi> micahg: but they have a working gtk2 theme which they're porting to gtk3, so they can easily ship both
<micahg> ochosi: the plan is to have 1 GTK3 that GTK2&3 apps use last I checked
<ochosi> micahg: ok, interesting. i can ask luca about that. at the moment they're still shipping both
<charlie-tca> We are keeping in mind that we are staying in gtk2 for this release, right?
<micahg> yes, but some of the shared desktop apps will be GTK3
<ochosi> tbh if i have a working gtk2 theme and i port it to gtk3 i won't drop the working gtk2 theme for some "proxy"-solution, at least not in the short run
<ochosi> it'll hardly look the same anyway
<charlie-tca> Thank you
<micahg> ochosi: it should look the same, that's the goal
<ochosi> micahg: well unless it uses the pixmap engine it's hard to believe for me, but i'm open for good surprises ;)
<ochosi> but anyway, if anyone hears any details on this, please let me know
<charlie-tca> okay, can we move on and discuss this when we get actual references to look at?
<charlie-tca> GridCube: did you have a question about art?
<GridCube> My question was this, can't themes be added to a ppa so when an update to the theme is done we can see it on the update manager? 
<charlie-tca> ochosi: ??
<ochosi> sry, i'm back
<charlie-tca> is it a lot of work adding themes to the ppa?
<ochosi> yeah, well actually this is planned already
<ochosi> mr_pouit ^ ;)
<GridCube> :D oh okay
<ochosi> it seems we just haven't gotten round to it
<GridCube> and then what about my whislist bug 800918
<ochosi> and when i say "we", i mean the "royal we" (== mr_pouit)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 800918 in xubuntu-default-settings (Ubuntu) "Some wallpaper/backdrops ideas" [Wishlist,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/800918
<charlie-tca> We need to add these kind of bugs to the bug list
<ochosi> GridCube: i read and second that bugreport, but i think it should be done upstream or at least in coop with upstream
<ochosi> GridCube: and it needs a coder :) (which i am not)
<charlie-tca> Any bugs we want to be able to track easy, regardless of priority can be added to 
<charlie-tca> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Bugs/OneiricOcelot
<GridCube> :D well i just wanted to bring that up again 
<ochosi> k, one last word on artwork, then i'm done:
<charlie-tca> mr_pouit has been busy just trying to get us sessions working
<charlie-tca> ..
<ochosi> it's possible that the gtk-theme will change again slightly as soon as i start to work seriously on the gtk3 port. in my opinion it's really important that they look the same, so it's possible i need to change some things again
<ochosi> so please be open for discussion and friendly about it ;)
<charlie-tca> (..) ??
<GridCube> :)
<ochosi> that's it. that's all :)
<charlie-tca> Thank you, ochosi 
<charlie-tca> You have been very busy this last week!
<charlie-tca> Any other questions for Artwork?
<GridCube> not from me
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC]
<meetingology> TOPIC: 
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Announcements
<meetingology> TOPIC: Announcements
<charlie-tca> I have a feew things here, so I will try to go too fast
<charlie-tca>  * The next meeting will be on Sunday, 2011-07-25 at 19:00 UTC
<charlie-tca>  * Important dates coming up:
<charlie-tca>   * 10.04.3 Release: July 21, 2011
<charlie-tca>  * 11.10 Alpha 3: August 4, 2011
<charlie-tca>  * 11.10 FeatureFreeze : August 11, 2011
<beardygnome> charlie-tca: shouldn't the next meeting be on a monday?
<charlie-tca>  * 11.10 Release Date: October 13, 2011
<beardygnome> i thought we were alternating?
<micahg> 7-25 is a monday :)
<charlie-tca> That is monday
<charlie-tca>  * The next meeting will be on Monday, 2011-07-25 at 19:00 UTC
<charlie-tca>  * UDS-P will be in Orlando, Florida October 31 - Nov 4. Please apply for sponsorship by August 24.
<charlie-tca>   * UDS-P information at http://ubuntu-news.org/2011/07/15/ubuntu-developer-summit-sponsorship-now-open-2/
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Any Other Business
<meetingology> TOPIC: Any Other Business
<charlie-tca> This is the chance to bring up all the stuff we haven't brought up yet :)
<GridCube> again, nothing from me
<micahg> is Firefox 6 in oneiric interesting?
<charlie-tca> I am seeing a rather disturbing thing happening in #xubuntu
<charlie-tca> sure, micahg 
<micahg> beta 1 is in, beta 2 should get in next week
<micahg> s/next/this/
<GridCube> whats whit firefox numbering?
<ochosi> charlie-tca: what are you seeing in #xubuntu?
<charlie-tca> too many are now receiving answers of "I don't use Xubuntu, and can't really help with that"
<micahg> GridCube: similar versioning to Chromium, major bump every 6 weeks
<charlie-tca> If a user is coming to #xubuntu, they should expect to get xubuntu support.
<micahg> charlie-tca: why are those people idling in #xubuntu then?
<charlie-tca> any suggestions how to deal with this, other than flat out banning those users?
<GridCube> yes i've seen that once or twice
<charlie-tca> I am wondering the same things
<beardygnome> o/
<charlie-tca> go ahead
<charlie-tca> beardygnome: 
<beardygnome> whenever some says that, we could ask them why they are in the channel
<beardygnome> and suggest to them that it is not helpful to other users to state that they can't help
<charlie-tca> good suggestion
<beardygnome> they *may* have a valid reason for idling in the room
<ochosi> charlie-tca: you could add a bot-action for that
<charlie-tca> I would like to see the channel ops watching for that, also
<ochosi> that would make it easier ;)
<GridCube> yes we could have an ubottu responce for that too
<charlie-tca> good idea
<beardygnome> they shouldn't get involved if they have nothing to add
<GridCube> something like "if you are not an xubuntu user, please don't advertise it on this channel"?
<charlie-tca> let's add one, since those users seem to speak up often now
<charlie-tca> more like "Please do not disrupt the channel with off-topic subjects. If you are using Xubuntu, you are not helping this user." ?
<charlie-tca> I don't really know how to word it, but I think it is quite serious.
<GridCube> >if you are *not* using
<GridCube> i agree charlie-tca 
<charlie-tca> well, yeah, *not*
<beardygnome> +1
<charlie-tca> Okay, name for that?
<charlie-tca> maybe ! notxubuntu?
<GridCube> maybe !nothelping
<GridCube> because they are not
<charlie-tca> sure, I like that
<beardygnome> +1
<charlie-tca> anyone else?
<GridCube> nope
<ochosi> yeah, just don't make it a very strong suggestion to shut up
<charlie-tca> well, it gets them banned in #ubuntu
<charlie-tca> !topic
<ubottu> Please read the channel topic whenever you enter, as it contains important information. To view it at any time after joining, simply type /topic
<charlie-tca> I can't remember what it is now
<charlie-tca> !offtopic
<ubottu> #xubuntu is the Xubuntu support channel, #xubuntu-devel for discussion regarding development of Xubuntu, and #xubuntu-offtopic is for random chatter. Welcome!
<charlie-tca> anyway, are we okay with the suggestion, then?
<beardygnome> i am
<charlie-tca> if they continue, I suggesting calling ops and having them removed for offtopic discussions, myself.
<charlie-tca> Okay, then. Any other discussions?
<charlie-tca> Thanks for attending the meeting.
<GridCube> :) thank you
<charlie-tca> Your inputs are always welcome, whether in person or by email
<charlie-tca> #endmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting ended Sun Jul 17 23:12:57 2011 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell . (v 0.1.4)
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://mootbot.libertus.co.uk/xubuntu-devel/2011/xubuntu-devel.2011-07-17-22.01.moin.txt
<pleia2> sorry I missed it, but I didn't realy have any updates
<charlie-tca> no problem, we skipped you today
<pleia2> I will say that more generically canonical has been really amazing about support requests lately, so when we are ready to move on the theme I'm hopefully it won't take too long to get going on it :)
<pleia2> er, am hopeful
 * ochosi is keeping his fingers crossed
<GridCube> :D
<charlie-tca> !behelpful
<ubottu> As our !guidelines say, "When helping, be helpful". If you're not familiar with the issue at hand, let someone else handle it instead of making !offtopic comments or jokes.
<charlie-tca> will be the new factoid. Keeps it positive. If they continue, call ops
<beardygnome> sounds good to me
<Unit193> I seemed to have missed that, I'll have to lookup the log bot
<charlie-tca> pleia2: we need to try and get enough people in as website authorized changers, too. 
<charlie-tca> Hopefully, we keep all we have, and the same privileges, to be able to grant others access when we decide we need to.
<Unit193> charlie-tca: Should https://bugs.launchpad.net/xubuntu-website/+bug/784158 be assigned to GridCube?
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 784158 in Xubuntu Website "xubuntu.org/getubuntu has old screenshots" [Undecided,New]
<GridCube> but my system is old, in the fact thats 10.04 so i can be half of the fixer
<charlie-tca> no, not unless he is the one doing the actual change
<charlie-tca> We don't usually assign anyone
<charlie-tca> we just add screenshots as an attachment to the bug
<charlie-tca> and you add it to your own wiki page, as a project you worked on
<Unit193> Eh, wiki updates >_<
<charlie-tca> email to the ML, file a bug with them, email them to me or lyz
<charlie-tca> or just do your own, by editing the page.
<charlie-tca> got to run, bbiab
<Unit193> Adios! And the bug is already filed
#xubuntu-devel 2012-07-09
<ochosi> astraljava: ping
<astraljava> ochosi: pong
<knome> wot, you still awake?
<knome> :|
<astraljava> Yeah...
<ochosi> hey :)
<knome> yeah.
<knome> i'm just ircing while sleeping, btw
<knome> nah, actually, i'm just about to go to bed
<ochosi> astraljava: thought i'd be a pain in the a** and ask you about the display-dialog again ;D
<ochosi> knome: ah right
<knome> ochosi, i suppose i could make him eat some really hot food for you
<ochosi> knome: btw, those other tweaks you wanted to do for greybird, are they still planned?
<knome> ochosi, that way, the pain in the ass would kind of actualize
<ochosi> lol
<ochosi> sounds like a plan
<knome> probably, but not before thu, for sure
<knome> but they are not too critical
<knome> the windowlist looks fine now, and i'm happy
<ochosi> :)
<knome> anyway, i'm to bed now
<knome> have fun and good night!
<ochosi> ok, nighty!
<astraljava> ochosi: Well I did make some progress on it, but then it ground to a halt when I needed to upgrade to quantal on the machine that has dual monitors.
<astraljava> The upgrade didn't go too smoothly, and it's currently broken.
<ochosi> oh i see
<ochosi> well i guess i can also test it on precise
<ochosi> for now that should be fine
<astraljava> It's still missing some functionality, because I spent the last few days fighting with the system.
<ochosi> i mean there haven't been real changes (i know of) in the display dialog between 4.8 and 4.10 and X is also not too different
<ochosi> right
<ochosi> where are you at now?
<astraljava> It's got the GUI changes done, and the signal handling. Just needs the population of the combobox, and the calculations of the positions. It was implemented in a way that each randr->noutput has x and y coordinates.
<ochosi> that sounds manageable
<astraljava> It doesn't seem to have a simple option of telling which one is right and which is left, for instance. So all the different variations need to be calculated separately.
<ochosi> meh, that sucks a bit
<astraljava> It's not that tricky, of course.
<ochosi> yeah
<ochosi> only 2dimensional :)
<astraljava> But they're not there, yet.
<astraljava> Yeah, just gotta write up the logic in there.
<ochosi> ok sounds good
<ochosi> btw, it might be good to push what you have to a branch in launchpad
<astraljava> But I probably won't make it till the meeting this week.
<ochosi> just to be sure
<astraljava> Yeah, it's just on that machine that doesn't boot atm. :D
 * ochosi has seen too much code getting lost because of pc's breaking
<astraljava> It has occasionally happened, yes.
<ochosi> also, that way more people could test
<astraljava> Well so far there's nothing to test.
<astraljava> It won't do anything.
<astraljava> All you could test is the layout. :)
<astraljava> It's not that fascinating.
<ochosi> heh
#xubuntu-devel 2012-07-10
<alazare619> anyone here build ubuntu/xubuntu from scratch
<ochosi> do i look like a buildbot? :)
<astraljava> This channel is filled with various bots.
<astraljava> Just sayin'...
<ochosi> haha
<Unit193> He'll call anyone a bot.
<alazare619> looking for someone that has built it from scratch with the livecd-rootfs tools i can build the chroot no problem its building the iso is where i have an issue
<ochosi> morning everyone
<astraljava> o/
<elfy> morning 
<astraljava> Meetings wikipage is not updated. Shouldn't we have the next one tomorrow, or am I out of my mind even worse than usual?
<ochosi> astraljava: i think you're right
<ochosi> knome: what about tomorrow's meeting?
<ochosi> astraljava: (i updated the agenda with new items though)
<mr_pouit> https://launchpad.net/~degeneracypressure/+archive/abiword
<mr_pouit> the ppa description is interesting
<ochosi> nice
<mr_pouit> astraljava: x and y coordinates come from xrandr, iirc there's no left/right/above/below notion
<astraljava> ochosi: Oh, right. I suppose it's because that last meeting wasn't held, IIRC.
<ochosi> astraljava: yes
<astraljava> mr_pouit: Yeah, that's what I figured. So for me to add the functionality of those, I need to calculate the correct x and y coordinates for both outputs.
<ochosi> but it's not so hard, i mean "right of screen1" just means you have to add the x-resolution of screen1 as starting-value for screen2
<ochosi> i have this stored in xfconf like that at work so that i get my two screens set up correctly
<mr_pouit> same here (unsurprisingly :p)
<astraljava> ochosi: No, like I said, it's not that hard.
<mr_pouit> it's ugly to manage more than 2 screens with comboboxes though
<astraljava> Just it has to have all the options covered; changing the other display as primary -> swap (recalculate if not identical) coordinates etc.
<ochosi> mr_pouit: but it's a rare use-case. if it works for most users, it's already an improvement
<astraljava> mr_pouit: Yeah, I suppose I'll add support for two screens at first. :)
<astraljava> I don't know what'd be the best way to provide support for multiple, to be honest.
<ochosi> ppl who have such a rare-usecase can fiddle with xfconf :)
<astraljava> Heheh.
<ochosi> as long as we provide basic support for two screens, which is a really typical scenario these days, i'm happy
<astraljava> I'll see if I can make progress with it tonight.
<ochosi> great
<astraljava> Wiki page updated, reminder posted.
<ochosi> fiddling with glade xml in a text-editor is just _fun_
<astraljava> Oh yeah, about the glade template, the "Use this output" was not a checkbox anymore, I wondered about that, but I suppose that's how it's wanted these days. I made the mirror thing as one, though.
<ochosi> wait, what abou tthe use-this-output checkbox?
<astraljava> It seemed to be a button instead of a checkbox these days.
<ochosi> a toggle-button?
<astraljava> Might have been, yeah.
<ochosi> and where did you see that?
<astraljava> In glade, in the quantal sources.
<ochosi> in the glade file of ubuntu's dialog you mean?
<astraljava> Yeah.
<ochosi> k
<astraljava> Err... Ubuntu dialog? I mean, I apt-get sourced xfce4-settings, which is the source package that holds the display-dialogs.
<ochosi> a-ha
<ochosi> i didn't realize there were changes to it
<ochosi> well ok, in that case keep it as a toggle
<astraljava> Right. Yeah wasn't gonna change that, but would you like the mirror thingie as such, too?
<astraljava> To keep it consitent?
<astraljava> consistent*
<ochosi> i guess yes
<astraljava> Ok.
<ochosi> as soon as it's ported to gtk3 there will be the gtkswitch widget anyway..
<astraljava> Yeah ok.
<ochosi> gah, parole seems to be a can of worms :(
<ochosi> while i can fix the main interface, that seems to screw up the fullscreen-interface, oh how i hate you glade!
<astraljava> Not a big fan of it either.
<ochosi> shit, parole's code is really scattered all over the place
<ochosi> now i see why nobody wanted to touch it
 * astraljava doesn't even recall it, maybe it is really off-putting...
<astraljava> ;)
<ochosi> well it's unexpectedly difficult to just play with the UI
<ochosi> ok, finally managed to make parole look better
<ochosi> http://www.zimagez.com/zimage/screenshot-07102012-013038pm.php
<ochosi> apart from the stupid statusbar it's pretty close to as it should be
<elfy> that does look better - will mine have free toast? 
<ochosi> maybe, you'll have to try to find out :)
<elfy> :)
<ochosi> if only i could move the stupid playtime stuff from the statusbar to the control-bar
<ochosi> but i think that might turn out too difficult for me
<astraljava> mr_pouit: micahg: What your opinion re: bug #1019621? Could we get this done? The abiword maintainer over at the Debian-side weighed in on the matter in the comments.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1019621 in abiword (Ubuntu) "Precise abiword version needs to be reverted to stable release prior to 12.04.1" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1019621
<mr_pouit> (msevior is an upstream abiword developer afaik)
<astraljava> Oh ok, sorry, I think he himself used maintainer in the comment, so made a wrong link in mind.
<knome> ochosi, astralkava: yes, the next meeting should be tomorrow. sorry for not updating the page
<knome> astraljava, btw, it's 11th tomorrow.
<astraljava> grr...
<knome> astraljava, well, i fixed the wikipage and sent a fixing email
<astraljava> Ahh... you updated it, thanks.
<mr_pouit> astraljava: yeah, I'm for the revert (micahg disagrees though). But staying in sync with Debian is also less work from us. :P I've replied to the bug report anyway.
<astraljava> mr_pouit: Thanks. What is the entity that calls the shots on this?
<mr_pouit> the sru team (and the release team)
<mr_pouit> however, I don't think this is feasible (nor reasonable) to revert with a SRU
<astraljava> Yeah. I suppose it's more valuable to spend time in actually fixing the bugs.
<Unit193> Meeting for tomorrow isn't on either calendar...
<astraljava> Does the calendar support reoccurance?
<knome> Unit193, the calendars are still WIP.
<astraljava> ...or whatever the correct term is...
<knome> Unit193, no-one said "start following this and you'll get all updates"
<Unit193> No, but I'm saying it now in case you didn't know.
<knome> i knew.
<knome> well yes and no. basically, i'm not counting on the calendar. yet.
<micahg> mr_pouit: the whole abiword thing is a mess, do you have any idea if the new snapshot is ABI compatible with 2.9.2?  additionally, I'm concerned as you mentioned in the bug report about "upgrades" from 2.9.2 to 2.8.6
<mr_pouit> micahg: and 2.9.x uses gtk3 whereas 2.8.x gtk2, so messy++ (as much as I'd like to revert, I fear things will get worse)
<micahg> mr_pouit: right, so I think our best shot is an SRU if it's ABI compatible
<pleia2> moo.com is having a 30% off everything summer sale, in case anyone else wants to order the spiffy xubuntu stickers
<pleia2> (as their sales go, this is a pretty good one)
<ochosi> pleia2: thanks a lot for the stickers!!
<ochosi> pleia2: arrived today and my flatmate loved it :)
<genii-around> Hm. Only us.moo.com, no ca.moo.com
<pleia2> ochosi: welcome :) I fear I may have forgotten to include the UW ones
<pleia2> genii-around: they're a uk company, but they ship internationally
<genii-around> pleia2: Ah, OK
<ochosi> pleia2: true, but no biggy
<micahg> pleia2: holy cow!
<astraljava> Yeah, I concur. To forget the UW ones?! Come... ooon!
<cc_INC> Will we see some awesome Xubuntu t-shirts in the near future or is that a DIY thing too just like the stickers?! :)
<pleia2> we'll use a site like zazzle.com or something so people can click to order
<pleia2> stickers are cheap to make and ship, shirts less so
<cc_INC> That's true. But then again a shirt is a better way to promote Xubuntu
<cc_INC> I think the costs are higher but the results might be effecient??
<Unit193> Local person does shirts, wonder how that'd go.
<pleia2> I can't actually afford to bankroll all Xubuntu marketing efforts :)
<cc_INC> Something like Spreadshirt might work...there are a few on-line stores that carry the same concept as spreadshirt
<cc_INC> But perhaps that's something for the future :)
<pleia2> thanks, added that link to our list of vendors to consider on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Marketing/Products
<cc_INC> No probs.
<ochosi> GridCube: ping
<GridCube> ochosi, :) pong
<ochosi> hey
<GridCube> sup?
<ochosi> for one, i wanted to say that we changed the default playmode from "shuffle" to something that makes more sense in gmusicbrowser
<ochosi> it'll land in 12.10, but if you do a clean install from our ppa, you can test that already
<GridCube> :) ok
 * micahg hides
<Unit193> Hah, I just did too!
<ochosi> hehe, micahg will upload the changes to quantal soon ;)
<GridCube> i dont know if you know but we decided with knome that i should step aside from this case because im not objetive enough, so someone else should be taking care of it now
<ochosi> ok, no i didn't know
<ochosi> but in any way, it does not matter for this specific point
<GridCube> :) 
<GridCube> i understand
<ochosi> because it was your request, and it'll be implemented in 12.10 :)
<GridCube> :D
<ochosi> micahg: fwiw, i'm working with the gmb-dev to narrow the gap between the patches debian/ubuntu carries and upstream
<micahg> cool
<ochosi> GridCube: so even if you step aside this now, it is important you know that your comments didn't go unheard or anything
<GridCube> can you make it use the "now playing" playlist by the default? like the one in the "directory and archives" skin?
<ochosi> GridCube: tbh i wasn't even aware of the fact that gmusicbrowser was shipped with shuffle on by default
<GridCube> :) thank you very much ochosi 
<GridCube> well... it was :P
<ochosi> i know that now :)
<ochosi> for now it'll play in the same order it displays the songs by default
<GridCube> :)
<GridCube> good that will make it less confusing :D
<ochosi> but: the user can always change display and/or sort order
<GridCube> thats ok, thats expected to happen, users should know and control whatever happens on their computers
<ochosi> good, nice to find some common ground there
<GridCube> :)
<ochosi> i also considered your other comments more, and after a while i realized that parole plays streams as well
<GridCube> mmhm, in a topic that might sound a bit late, but, parole doesnt integrate with firefox to play streams online, totem does, and vlc too
<ochosi> yeah, i know
<ochosi> it's not that late
<ochosi> i think it was mentioned in the roadmap
<ochosi> vlc is not an option for obvious reasons (qt etc)
<ochosi> totem is deeply integrated like most gnome3 stuff nowadays, not sure how many dependencies it would bring
<GridCube> mmhm
<GridCube> i've seen a xine plugin too
<GridCube> never tried it tho
<ochosi> yes, not sure about its state
<ochosi> feel free to test it and report back
<GridCube> :) ok
<GridCube> at least we could create a kind of link to open streams with parole?
<ochosi> probably
<ochosi> would need some investigation
<ochosi> btw, this might interest you: http://bryanquigley.com/reviews/12-04-music-player-review-init
<pleia2> ooh, lots of people around
<ochosi> not sure how good it'll be though
<ochosi> ahoi pleia2  :)
<GridCube> :) hello pleia2 :D
<GridCube> thanks for the stickers
<pleia2> for a presentation on saturday: http://people.ubuntu.com/~lyz/xubuntu/xubuntu-feltonlug.pdf
<Unit193> parole had a plugin...
<pleia2> draft :) if you have comments or stuff you need me to add for your section, please let me know
<pleia2> GridCube: welcome :)
<GridCube> :) nice presentation
<ochosi> pleia2: i'm not a native speaker, but "Based around
<ochosi> "?
<ochosi> i thought "based on" or maybe "built around"
<pleia2> I said "around" because it's an "environment"
<pleia2> but any of those work really
<ochosi> right, happy to learn new phrases really :)
<pleia2> but I'm American, we mostly just speak bad english
<ochosi> lol
<pleia2> either way, I was missing a "the" in there
<ochosi> hehe
<ochosi> pleia2: slide 14, maybe pluralize that "default
<ochosi> Xubuntu theme
<ochosi> "
<ochosi> arr, sorry, for the linebreakes
 * ochosi has to stop copy-pasting from pdf
<pleia2> good, done
<pleia2> I also haven't looked into this "new application finder in 4.10" and catfish.. are they the same thing?
<ochosi> no, they aren't
<pleia2> catfish is a more search tool, not app finder
<ochosi> actually there are many more comments i could give
<ochosi> if you want
<pleia2> please :)
<ochosi> ok
<pleia2> I pretty much went from my brain, and the website, to gather this stuff
<ochosi> ok
<ochosi> well i think that in a way it's optimistic to say that we're doing much more than compiling software
<ochosi> (referring to slide 11's title, "programming and packaging", imo it's mostly the latter)
 * pleia2 nods
<ochosi> although this might be fine, but "outsiders" sometimes tend to think we really do a lot of programming
<ochosi> and then they have requests and we always redirect them upstream
<ochosi> which is neither wrong nor entirely bad, but frustrating for those people
<ochosi> (i think)
<ochosi> good example is the "integrate catfish in thunar" discussion on the ml recently
<ochosi> your slide 9 is far more realistic i think
<ochosi> i like that a lot
<pleia2> in what I actually say during this presentation I'll draw a more clear distinction between what we do and what should be done upstream
<ochosi> because that describes what we do much more accurately
<ochosi> okeydokey :)
<pleia2> programmers are needed to write bug fixes and backport things, but I'll direct most programmers upstream
<ochosi> slide 14: what do you mean with "contribute to xfce-look"?
<ochosi> we do that or people should do that?
<pleia2> it's a way to contribute to the xubuntu ecosystem
<pleia2> if they don't want to work on shimmer
<pleia2> where do we get our non-default themes?
<pleia2> xfce-look is one of the things mentioned on http://xubuntu.org/contribute/marketing/
<ochosi> currently we don't get them
<ochosi> i'm working on that
<ochosi> but i'm not willing to include themes that aren't maintained
<ochosi> personally i dislike xfce-look because it's sooo messy
<pleia2> it is a bit :\
<Unit193> And has nothing that is compatible with GTK2 and 3
<ochosi> yeah, there a few criteria for accepting a new theme into our install
<ochosi> (maybe we should also make those more public)
<ochosi> 1) supports xfce, gtk2, gtk3
<ochosi> 2) is maintained (i.e. over more than one release)
<ochosi> 3) good quality
<ochosi> the last one is the most difficult, but i'd narrow that down to technical aspects that are more easily objectifiable
<pleia2> is there any place we could recommend theme developers put their stuff if not xfce-look?
<ochosi> well, there's deviantart
<ochosi> that has a little higher standards
<ochosi> but obviously there's also a lot of crap
<ochosi> i mean xfce-look is a place to start
<Unit193> Zukitwo for example isn't too bad.
<ochosi> maybe just say in your presentation that ppl should get in touch with us if they have themes or want to contribute
<Unit193> I like ones I can git pull. :P
<pleia2> ochosi: ok, sounds good :)
<ochosi> Unit193: yeah, i know. lasse is pretty good, but unfortunately we won't be able to get him as a contributor. he's a gnomeshell/archlinux user
<ochosi> pleia2: ok, continuing the comments...
<ochosi> slide 16: why do you list gthumb3?
<pleia2> isn't it a default app?
<ochosi> no rhetorical question, i have no clue what improved there
<ochosi> yeah, but so is abiword
<ochosi> or evince
<pleia2> oh, when writing release notes I went through a whole bunch of default apps and compared versions between 12.04 and 12.10
<pleia2> those were the ones with major changes
<ochosi> ok
<ochosi> slide 17: add "Panel: " to items 2 and 3 in the list
<ochosi> otherwise i'd think: "what's that about"?
<pleia2> ah, good catch
<pleia2> I still need to test some of this stuff, I mostly just grabbed from 4.10 release notes and /tour
<ochosi> also: many ppl might be more interested in "thumbnails on the desktop" than "single click launching apps"
<ochosi> also because it's not 100% true, you can single-click and open documents too
<pleia2> ok
<ochosi> so it's more general single-click support (as in thunar)
<pleia2> gotcha
<ochosi> again slide 16: gtk3 support was pretty perfect in 12.04 already, not sure we can improve it that much ;)
<ochosi> (in greybird at least)
<pleia2> what was the weirdness I saw in those bugs I submitted?
<pleia2> in menus
<ochosi> but you could instead say: improved gtk3 support for Xubuntu's default themes
<ochosi> that was in quantal
<pleia2> yeah
<ochosi> it was a bug in the unico-engine
<ochosi> i already fixed it
<ochosi> ;)
<ochosi> in bluebird _and_ greybird
<pleia2> oh ok
<ochosi> and it was fixed in albatross anyway
<pleia2> I guess I didn't separate unico-engine and gtk3 in my head
<ochosi> i'm trying to get rid of the dependency on the unico-engine
<ochosi> mostly because the author of unico wants to get rid of it too :)
<pleia2> ah :)
<ochosi> well it's one less source for errors
<pleia2> so in 12.10, are we removing the broken themes and just shipping with a few themes?
<ochosi> we're trying to
 * pleia2 nods
<ochosi> we're already not shipping "murrine-themes" anymore
<ochosi> it contains a lot of themes that only support gtk2
<ochosi> basically we have to assemble a new collection of themes
<ochosi> and the problem is: many of them only support specific gtk3 versions
<ochosi> for greybird i have a version for gtk3.2, one for gtk3.4 and now one for gtk3.6
<ochosi> not backward or forward compatible
<pleia2> ouch
<ochosi> each version will break in the wrong environment
<ochosi> gtk3 is a mess..
<ochosi> that's why maintenance is the second point on the list i posted above
<Unit193> But it's better!
<ochosi> you mean gtk3?
#xubuntu-devel 2012-07-11
<bluesabre> ochosi, GridCube: What about gecko-mediaplayer for streams?
<GridCube> never heard of it
<ochosi> bluesabre: we don't install mplayer by default
<bluesabre> But would mplayer be lighter-weight than gnome dependencies?
<bluesabre> (as far as parole vs totem that is)
<ochosi> if option 1) is totem and option 2) is gstreamer+mplayer i'd go for option 3)
<ochosi> :)
<bluesabre> lol
<ochosi> you know, shipping _two_ media player frameworks is not very sane
<bluesabre> True
<ochosi> either we switch to mplayer, then we should also kick parole
<ochosi> or we look for a gstreamer based browser-plugin
<bluesabre> How difficult is it to embed parole into the browser?  I saw a hack that embedded evince for pdf viewing into firefox a while back
<ochosi> i dunno, parole's code is a bit messed up though
<ochosi> i worked on it a bit today
<ochosi> i mean my skillset is limited
<bluesabre> Looong ago: http://www.webupd8.org/2011/03/get-embedded-pdf-files-in-firefox-36-4.html  Uses mplugger
<ochosi> i mainly modified the UI for now
<bluesabre> *mozplugger
<ochosi> there was a parole-plugin for firefox
<ochosi> it's either not packaged anymore because it doesn't work anymore or i dunno
<ochosi> this is all i could find: http://www.ubuntuupdates.org/package/core/natty/universe/base/browser-plugin-parole
<pleia2> I've never had very good luck with embedded players
<bluesabre> Well, it still installs...
<bluesabre> I wonder if it still works.
<ochosi> quoted from the goodies page: "While it is already usuable the plugin is still fresh and needs more effort to make more stable."
<ochosi> and the parole hasn't been maintained for at least a year or two
<ochosi> bluesabre: sooo, does it still work?
<bluesabre> Not having much luck in chrome at least
<ochosi> the plugin is for gecko-based browsers though
<ochosi> (chrome uses webkit)
<ochosi> or wait, maybe it even uses something else based on webkit, not sure anymore
<bluesabre> Doesn't look like it's working
<bluesabre> I might try to compile against all the latest stuff later and try again
<ochosi> the thing is:
<ochosi> i was always in favor of replacing parole
<ochosi> mainly because it's unmaintained
<ochosi> but i haven't seen a convincing alternative yet
<ochosi> it really is lightweight and fast
<ochosi> and it has a UI (as opposed to mplayer)
<bluesabre> You said it was all C, right?
<ochosi> and it has much potential
<ochosi> yeah
<ochosi> the UI is in a very old glade version though
<ochosi> (which sucks ass)
<ochosi> i reworked it a bit today
<bluesabre> You should create a test repo, maybe there is something that can be done for parole
<bluesabre> Not a fan of C, but I do like lightweight things.
<ochosi> well if you feel like writing a really dead-simple player in vala, i'll totally support you with all i have (which isn't much though)
<bluesabre> I don't have much vala skill though :(
<bluesabre> But that might be something to consider
<ochosi> ok, well anything _but_ python then ;)
<bluesabre> Yeah, I know
<ochosi> or let's say: anything that makes for a really responsive and lightweight player
<bluesabre> We might be able to steal something from audience
<bluesabre> and get rid of the custom interface
<ochosi> i'm wondering where audience is stolen from
<bluesabre> lol
<bluesabre> gotta go for now, be back later
<ochosi> usually elementary guys borrow quite a bit :)
<ochosi> although that might not be the case anymore
<ochosi> yeah, just replace clutter with gtk3 and we can go with audience
<ochosi> k, ttyl
<bluesabre> ochosi: still around?
<ochosi> yuo
<ochosi> i'm still tweaking parole's UI :)
<ochosi> i'm actually making good progress on this list: http://wiki.xfce.org/design/parole-ui
<ochosi> in case you're wondering: i wrote it myself ;)
<ochosi> i have items 2,3,6 and 7 pretty much done
<ochosi> the others i won't be able to fix i guess
<ochosi> bluesabre: ^
<bluesabre> Cool
<bluesabre> I might be able to help with some of the other things on that list
<bluesabre> In fact, I don't see any reason why we wouldn't be able to attain the mockup you provided
<ochosi> i pushed things to a repo now btw
<ochosi> unfortunately there's nothing set up in bzr
<ochosi> and upstream uses git
<ochosi> so i decided to use github for now
<Unit193> Sweet, in shimmer?
<ochosi> no, right now it's here: https://github.com/ochosi/Parole
<bluesabre> cool
<ochosi> bluesabre: i made you a "collaborator" in the project, i think that should give you commit/push rights
<ochosi> if not let me know, then i have to take another look
<bluesabre> alrighty
<ochosi> btw, after having had a look at the code:
<ochosi> the statusbar stuff is more tricky than i thought, because it also shows buffer-info
<ochosi> we
<ochosi> we'd have to think of a better way/place to show that if we want to drop the statusbar
<ochosi> but maybe it's fine and we can keep it
<ochosi> and only move the playing-position and duration next to the progress-scale
<bluesabre> Ok
<ochosi> i also updated the wikipage so we can keep a better overview over what's done
<ochosi> next i'll try to do the gtkvolumebutton
<bluesabre> sounds good
<bluesabre> which, very conveniently has its own widget nowadays :D
<ochosi> yup
<ochosi> just need to adjust all the callbacks etc.
<bluesabre> the parole developers sure did love HBoxes.
<bluesabre> ochosi: Could we put buffering information in the titlebar as well?  It would rarely be used I would imagine, and only show when buffering was happening
<bluesabre> somestream.wmv (Buffering 27%)
<ochosi> it was only one developer :)
<ochosi> well, that would mean we'd have to update the titlebar every second or so
<ochosi> sounds costly to me
<ochosi> i'd rather put it somewhere else
<bluesabre> hmm
<bluesabre> If you get any creative ideas, let me know :D
<ochosi> ok :)
<ochosi> btw, the volumebutton works
<ochosi> but:
<ochosi> i tried to set the "icon" property to "Button"
<ochosi> because atm it uses menu-icon size
<ochosi> (16px)
<ochosi> which is particularly bad, because in elementary-xfce that's a white icon (for the dark panel)
<ochosi> any ideas what i could be doing wrong there?
<ochosi> <property name="size">Button</property>
<ochosi> oh wait
<ochosi> ok, i got it
<ochosi> but why is it still using the white icon ... :(
<bluesabre> dunno
<bluesabre> At least in glade3 (gtk3), it looks like all the sizes use the white icon
<bluesabre> Except for symbolic icons, which gtk2 lacks :(
<ochosi> oh noes
<ochosi> missing symlinks in elementary-xfce
<bluesabre> Looks like its using:
<bluesabre> audio-volume-muted
<bluesabre> audio-volume-high
<bluesabre> audio-volume-low
<bluesabre> audio-volume-medium
<ochosi> yeah
<ochosi> strange
<bluesabre> which I guess it's nabbing from panel..?
<ochosi> we have those in 22px
<ochosi> problem is, our index.theme sets the 22px icons to "fixed"
<ochosi> so they won't be scaled
<ochosi> actually i wonder whether we can drop all the audio-icons from the -dark theme that don't have the "-panel" suffix
<ochosi> bluesabre: could you test what i've done so far?
<ochosi> just to be sure it doesn't just work here...
<bluesabre> Sure thing
<bluesabre> Looks like it works for me
<ochosi> sounds promising :)
<bluesabre> I should be able to get the other things moved around.  Just not tonight.  It's too late to be staring at something non-python.  :-D  Probably work some magic tomorrow.
<ochosi> hehe
<ochosi> sure thing
<ochosi> i actually stayed up far too late for this stuff now
<ochosi> should get up in 5hrs :(
<bluesabre> Ouch
<bluesabre> Well, I'll be the first to give in.  Have a good night!
<ochosi> well otoh i was waiting for so long for someone too change these small annoyances in parole that i'm incredibly happy i did it myself
<ochosi> yeah, you too!
<ochosi> knome: i most likely won'
<ochosi> knome: t be able to make the meeting today
<ochosi> hey astraljava 
<astraljava> o/
<ochosi> how's it goin?
<astraljava> I'm at work, so... you figure it out. *smirk*
<ochosi> hehe
<ochosi> well at least you obviously have time to irc there
<ochosi> can't be _that_ bad ;)
<astraljava> No it's not _that_ bad.
<ochosi> anyway, i won't be able to make the meeting today :(
<astraljava> It's fine. Do you have anything to report?
<ochosi> at least i fear i won't be
<ochosi> yeah, that's why i wanted to talk to someone :)
<astraljava> Ok, shoot.
<ochosi> greybird and bluebird have been fixed (in git) for quantal
<ochosi> there were obvious bugs with unico, now i'm again interested in feedback by testers :)
<astraljava> Alright, sweet.
<ochosi> i started to work on UI modifications of parole
<ochosi> roadmap is here: http://wiki.xfce.org/design/parole-ui
<ochosi> code is here: https://github.com/ochosi/Parole
<astraljava> Nice.
<ochosi> the next meeting will be my last until late august
<ochosi> (holidays)
<ochosi> hope i can make it then, in two weeks
<astraljava> I can post these as #infos when it's your slot.
<ochosi> yes, please do so
<astraljava> Thanks for the updates!
<ochosi> ppl should feel free to test the parole changes
<astraljava> Wanna mail a call for it on the lists?
<ochosi> it's as easy as "git clone ... && sudo apt-get build-dep parole && ./autogen.sh && make && ./src/parole"
<ochosi> that's be too much i think, cause atm it's just UI changes
<ochosi> it would be ludicrous if i break something with that :p
<astraljava> Sure.
<ochosi> otoh who knows...
<astraljava> Yeah you never know. :)
<ochosi> i think i'll send that call as soon as i'm at the more essential changes that include more code refactoring
<astraljava> At least I'm so capable of introducing new bugs while fixing present ones...
<ochosi> :)
<ochosi> guess you haven't had time yet for the display dialog?
<ochosi> oh also: i'll be away next week (sun to sat)
<ochosi> probably here sometimes, but mostly not
<astraljava> No, I needed to work on jussi's website last night.
<ochosi> okeydokey
<astraljava> I'll continue fighting with the desktop when I get home tonight.
<ochosi> do you think you'll get the code push-able or test-able while i'm still around?
<astraljava> Before Sunday?
<astraljava> It's possible, depends on when I get that machine running.
<ochosi> ok
<ochosi> anyway, i'm off now. prolly be back later
<astraljava> Ok, see ya.
<bluesabre> ochosi: Small update, but the window title now displays the media name.
<ochosi> bluesabre: oh great!
<ochosi> bluesabre: then let's drop the window-title plugin
<ochosi> (especially because it didn't work anyway)
<ochosi> knome: we should test light-software-center soon
<bluesabre> ochosi: Now duration is in the right place.  Haven't gotten elapsed time yet.  btw, what is light-software-center?  :)
<ochosi> it's an alternative software center written in vala
<ochosi> aimed to be simple and lightweight
<bluesabre> neat
<ochosi> hopefully :)
<ochosi> then we could replace USC _and_ synaptic
<hobgoblin> different than the loobylou one?
<ochosi> hobgoblin: woot?
<hobgoblin> or is it the same one?
<ochosi> lubuntu software center you mean?
<hobgoblin> yea
<ochosi> well it's a rewrite of that, yeah
<ochosi> but in vala
<ochosi> i think lsc was in python or something
<hobgoblin> right - thanks ochosi :)
<hobgoblin> no idea - too close to voodoo for me :p
<ochosi> also, light software center uses granite (elementary's widget library)
<hobgoblin> I'd be happy to test it if it's needed - running 12.10 permanently now
<ochosi> you would have to build it
<ochosi> but if you could, that'd be great
<hobgoblin> ok - I can do that - I am a helpful goblin when I can be :)
<ochosi> hehe
<ochosi> graet
<hobgoblin> when it's ready to test let me know 
<ochosi> i think it is
<ochosi> i mean basically i don't know for sure
<ochosi> that's why testing would be needed
<ochosi> to see how far they've come
<hobgoblin> k - point me at it and let me loose then :)
<ochosi> bluesabre: say, why did you change so much in parole.ui in the last commit?
<ochosi> bluesabre: i mean, what's the reason?
<ochosi> (also: we should revert the size of the volume-button from large-toolbar to button)
<ochosi> ok, pushed that change
<ochosi> bluesabre: added another mockup for how i imagine streaming/buffering to look: http://wiki.xfce.org/design/parole-ui
<ochosi> (in this case the scale-widget would also show the buffer-progress)
<bluesabre> ah
<bluesabre> We could show a progress bar there instead for buffering
<bluesabre> since the user can't really adjust it
<ochosi> we could. but i'm not sure we have to
<ochosi> i mean the scale could work
<ochosi> oh right
<ochosi> yeah
<bluesabre> or hide the adjustment
<bluesabre> which i think is doable
<ochosi> whichever is easier
<ochosi> i'd be fine with either option
<bluesabre> k, I'll tackle that today.  Heading to work now.  What time is the xubuntu-devel meeting?
<ochosi> 15utc
<bluesabre> Cool.  Thanks.  bbl
<hobgoblin> ochosi: you mean this one? https://launchpad.net/light-software-center
<bluesabre> ochosi: Progress and duration now work with the slider.
<bluesabre> ochosi: And I think I'm close to having the buffering moved as well.
<bluesabre> at which point, no more statusbar
<bluesabre> Anybody know of a good stream that I can use to test parole and buffering?
<bluesabre> ochosi: Well, since I didn'
<bluesabre> t have any issues, I commited my changes.
<knome> astraljava, going to be available on the meeting?
<knome> Xubuntu community meeting in 30mins on #xubuntu-devel. Agenda at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings, everybody is welcome
<knome> that is, 20mins.
<ochosi> it looks like i'll actually be here
<knome> heh
<ochosi> bluesabre: great, pulling now
<knome> good.
<knome> i'm wondering if we have other attendees too
<ochosi> astraljava should be there i guess
<ochosi> at least i told him what do say on my behalf :)
<bluesabre> ochosi: Working on the sidebar show/hide button now
<ochosi> bluesabre: a-ha? what are you doing with that one?
<ochosi> (i mean i already moved it to the menu)
<bluesabre> oh
<bluesabre> Still going off of this mockup
<bluesabre> http://wiki.xfce.org/_detail/design/parole.png?id=design%3Aparole-ui
<bluesabre> I'll stop :D
<ochosi> no no, that's fine
<ochosi> but i already moved the button
<ochosi> if you look at the wiki-page, the item is striked through already
<bluesabre> Indeed
<ochosi> or at least i don't know what else to do with it
<ochosi> we could also throw it into the context menu
<ochosi> or make it a checkbutton
<ochosi> at the moment it's a menu-item that gets updated labels
<bluesabre> Right
<ochosi> not very standard...
<ochosi> bluesabre: looks fantastic!
<ochosi> bluesabre: trying the streams now...
<bluesabre> awesome
<bluesabre> in theory, buffering progress _should_ work.
<ochosi> ah
<ochosi> i saw a progressbar pop out below the scale for a split-second
<bluesabre> Woops, probably have the show and hide in the wrong order
<bluesabre> easy fix
<ochosi> hehe
<ochosi> ok
<bluesabre> Other than that, everything still works
<bluesabre> ?
<ochosi> the duration obviously doesn't make any sense there though
<bluesabre> ?
<bluesabre> Screenshot?
<ochosi> oddly enough the theming of the scale seems broken
<ochosi> http://www.zimagez.com/zimage/screenshot-07112012-045717pm.php
<ochosi> duration is of the mp3 i played before
<ochosi> (it's in the list on the right)
<ochosi> and the scale-button is bright now, which is odd
<ochosi> why did you add so much new properties to the parole.ui file again?
<bluesabre> I didn't add too many new properties... mostly just expand/not expand and not show all for one thing
<ochosi> (i get a lot of scale-related glib/gdk/gdkpixbuf errors, but i think at least most of them were there before)
<bluesabre> Might be a problem with the gtk version defined by the glade file or something
<ochosi> what does use_action_appearance do?
<bluesabre> I have no idea.
<ochosi> a-ha
<ochosi> so you didn't add it consciously?
<pleia2> meeting time?
<knome> y!
<knome> erm
<knome> i'll visit the gents
<knome> we can start after that, or feel free to go ahead already ;)
 * pleia2 makes coffee
 * ochosi is left all alone in the "meeting-room"
<hobgoblin> is it lonely?
<ochosi> totally
<hobgoblin> :(
<hobgoblin> get a sock puppet
<knome> #startmeeting Xubuntu community meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Jul 11 15:04:26 2012 UTC.  The chair is knome. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<knome> #chair ochosi astraljava pleia2 
<meetingology> Current chairs: astraljava knome ochosi pleia2
<knome> #topic Items carried on
<knome> #subtopic Open action items from previous meeting
<knome> pleia2, is your "review target audience" done?
<knome> release notes are written, and bluesabre has been in contact with people via ML
<pleia2> #info started review of target audience for marketing
<knome> great! is there anything visible? ;)
<pleia2> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Marketing
<pleia2> oh wait, it looks like my changes didn't save
<knome> awwh
<pleia2> (boo travel and unreliable wifi)
<knome> well, i suppose you have it in your head, so we are able to access that data later :P
<pleia2> #info changing the scope of that "Define the Xubuntu target audience" to be target /marketing/ audience, our actual target audience is defined in our strategy document
<pleia2> yeah
<pleia2> so I'll re-update in a bit :)
<knome> great
<knome> #subtopic Enable or disable compositor by default?
<knome> astraljava, did you have some insight on this?
<knome> there was a bug report or so...
<knome> since janne has vanished, anybody else?
<knome> allllllright.
<ochosi> not sure
<knome> :)
<ochosi> i think ideally we should disable it by default in the live-session
<ochosi> and enable it in the install
<ochosi> although that might seem inconsistent
<ochosi> but i think it does make some sense
<knome> i don't know if/how that's possible technically
<ochosi> should be possible, but i guess it would have to be discussed with our packagers
<pleia2> I don't love that idea, we tend to tell people to use the livecd to test if it works and they like it
<ochosi> true
<knome> yes, that raises the question "if we don't need the compositor on live, ..."
<knome> generally, i'm not a huge fan of the compositor
<ochosi> but otoh you don't use the live-cd for a longer period
<knome> that's not to say there is something wrong with it, i just personally prefer to disable the compositor, since i'm getting a bit more clean environment that way
<knome> sure, i can't use translucent panels, but imo those are not obligatory
<ochosi> yeah, we should ensure everything looks good without the compositor as well
<ochosi> but in general the shadows help do distinguish windows
<knome> is there *any* tests done with and without the compositor on, is there a notable speed difference?
<knome> and/or does enabling the compositor mean you should have at least some "power" in your GC?
<ochosi> xfwm4's compositor is really lean
<ochosi> but of course there are "issues" with proprietary drivers
<ochosi> in all fairness, all compositors have those issues
<knome> and generally, this leads us to the question of how far are we willing to go to pursue lightweightness
<ochosi> and in fact there is upstream work going on atm to reduce them (mostly video-tearing)
<pleia2> fwiw, I don't use the compositor either
<knome> in a way, i feel like that the compositor is a nice feature for those who want that extra bling, and because of that POV, i'm thinking "those who want it can enable it"
<ochosi> pleia2: btw, i was mainly referring to switching the compositor off in the "install xubuntu" option, which only shows ubiquity
<pleia2> ochosi: oh, gotcha
<ochosi> and we should strive to improve that anyhow, because there are no panels
<ochosi> but notifications about joining networks etc
<knome> how many of the people around actually use the translucent panels, for example?
<knome> i think that's the biggest thing, at least the most prominent change, if we decide to disable compositor by default
<ochosi> for me it's mostly the shadows behind windows
<ochosi> we're currently using translucency in a very conservative way, which i think is good
<knome> bigger window borders would fix "not distinguishing windows" without the shadows ;]
<ochosi> but really, this seems to be a bit of a different discussion (compositor on in general or not), i'd rather continue with the meeting, i don't have too much time right now
<knome> yes, i don't want to push the translucency-button any further
<ochosi> thanks
<knome> i mean :D
<knome> at least, let's not get any less conservative as we are now
<knome> :P
<knome> but we can continue the meeting too.
<knome> #topic Team updates
<knome> #subtopic Development
<knome> mr_pouit, micahg, astraljava 
<knome> moving on
<knome> #subtopic QA
<knome> astraljava, GridCube, Unit193, ?
<knome> pleia2, ? :)
<pleia2> nothing from me
<pleia2> oh, we have a meeting coming up, QA-specific
<pleia2> this Sunday at 16:00 UTC
<knome> i assume somebody's going to announce it somewhere?
<pleia2> yeah, astraljava should
<knome> i mean, apart from this really quiet meeting
<knome> #action astraljava to announce the QA meeting on sunday, 16utc to mailing list and other 'forums'
<meetingology> ACTION: astraljava to announce the QA meeting on sunday, 16utc to mailing list and other 'forums'
<knome> #subtopic Marketing, Promotion, Art
<pleia2> I have many things :)
<knome> ochosi, do i really need to highlight you? ;)
<knome> pleia2, just go ahead, with #info & #action
<pleia2> #info I contacted the owner of the most-maintained Facebook page about Xubuntu, and he agreed to let us make it the official one
<pleia2> #link https://www.facebook.com/xubuntuusers
<knome> i assume you're an admin now too?
<pleia2> yep
<knome> good :)
<pleia2> so we should add it to the site now (I can do that)
<knome> great, thanks
<pleia2> I also wanted to say that it's been an exceptional experience approaching all these admins, google+, linkedin, facebook
<pleia2> they've all been happy to add me as admin and excited about having their sites made official
<knome> :)
<knome> now that we're this far, i suppose it's not a bad idea to cover more social networks
<pleia2> so I started writing a "thank you" blog post on my personal blog, should I keep this personal or maybe post it on xubuntu.org?
<knome> at least if those groups already exist and we can just drop in
<ochosi> i'm for the latter
<knome> xubuntu.org definitely :)
<pleia2> #action pleia2 to add Facebook page to website
<meetingology> ACTION: pleia2 to add Facebook page to website
<knome> it's a thanks from the whole (dev) community
<pleia2> #action pleia2 to draft "thank you" blog post to social media admins
<meetingology> ACTION: pleia2 to draft "thank you" blog post to social media admins
<knome> also, another way to tell people that they can join/follow/like...
<pleia2> yeah :)
<pleia2> also, I'm doing a Xubuntu presentation on Saturday
<knome> "now that we have done this really exhaustive taking-over..." ;)
<pleia2> micahg and ochosi already reviewed, I merged their changes in: http://people.ubuntu.com/~lyz/xubuntu/xubuntu-feltonlug.pdf
<pleia2> hehe
<pleia2> in case anyone wants to review today
<knome> what, can i ask questions too about xubuntu?
<knome> though i'm not sure if even *200* slides would go in that case..
<pleia2> no, you know everything
<pleia2> but if there is anything I am obviously missing, comments welcome :)
<knome> ok, i'll try to get around to reading it
<knome> by when do you need feedbak?
<knome> +c
<pleia2> today would be preferred, I am starting to practice actually giving it
<knome> ok
<pleia2> thank you :)
<pleia2> and finally...
<knome> at least for the slide 16, mention (gtk3) updates for albatross and bluebird too :)
<knome> aaand you lack ochosi from the reviwers ;)
<pleia2> oh hm, I changed that to say "Xubuntu's default themes"
<knome> ok
<knome> :)
<pleia2> that's odd, it uploaded but didn't seem to update the download
<ochosi> yup, i already mentioned that in my review ;)
 * pleia2 retries
<pleia2> ok, try download again
<pleia2> maybe sftp didn't auto-override the old file or something
<knome> pleia2, in slide 9, maybe replace "background" with "wallpaper"
<pleia2> #info I ordered a black t-shirt from zazzle.com with the design from https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Marketing/Products#T-shirts (lack the ubuntu font though)
<knome> pleia2, (and optionally add ", general appearance..."
<knome> )
<knome> awwh!
<knome> pics?
<pleia2> #info I'll report back on how it goes, they were having a sale so I figured I'd give it a try :)
<knome> ah
<knome> so it hasn't arrived yet ;)
<pleia2> yeah
 * ochosi goes to the loo for a sec
<knome> pleia2, slide 11, first bullet "Join (#)xubuntu-devel mailing list and IRC channel"
<pleia2> thanks
<ochosi> re
<knome> pleia2, and in pg 14 too, last bullet; background->wallpaper, and maybe sth like "for example"
<ochosi> #info Albatross has been fully ported to Gtk3, it also has a metacity theme now and supports Unity
<knome> \o/
<ochosi> #action Shimmer-Team to write a blog-post about the Albatross progress
<meetingology> ACTION: Shimmer-Team to write a blog-post about the Albatross progress
<pleia2> ok, went with "Attend meetings to voice your opinion on proposed changes to artwork, wallpaper and other visual changes"
<knome> #info Albatross xfwm-refresh is very much WIP...
<pleia2> maybe visual elements
<ochosi> #info ochosi is trying with the help of a new contributor to port Greybird to pure CSS (no more unico engine in Gtk3 hopefully)
<knome> pleia2, pg17, 3. bull; "panel applets..."
<ochosi> #info Some small bugs have been squashed in Bluebird and Greybird in Gtk3 for Quantal already, but we need more testing
<ochosi> #info We also need more testing for missing icons
<ochosi> that's about it from the artwork-side
<knome> ochosi, can you follow-up on the icons with astraljava, so we could get a special mention for the rest of our 12.10 milestones? :)
<ochosi> what do you mean exactly?
<knome> pleia2, pg19, last bullet, please add a slash add the end of the line ;)
<pleia2> hehe
<knome> ochosi, we can tell our testers to look specifically at the icons
<ochosi> i think the long-test already contains something like that
<ochosi> i added it myself
<knome> ok
<knome> heh, fine...
<ochosi> check point 11 here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Testing/Long
<knome> since we're *kind of* changing our icon theme, maybe that could be a part of the short test for the 12.10 cycle
<knome> anyway, i suppose that was it for the artwork
<knome> #topic New and emerging items
<knome> #subtopic BP: Add more launchers to Settings Manager 
<knome> #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-q-xubuntu-settings-manager-launchers
<knome> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Roadmap/Specifications/Quantal/SettingsManagerApps
<knome> Unit193, you around?
<knome> ok, let's carry on
<knome> #subtopic Encryption required for testing on milestones? 
<knome> who added this? astraljava? :)
<knome> or me...? :P
<ochosi> look at the wiki-log?
<knome> that's too long
<knome> i suppose this means if we should have the encryption -testcase on milestones
<knome> or, any other ideas what this could mean?
<knome> (yes, i know i might've added this myself... ;))
<knome> oh, no, that's astraljava 
<knome> since he doesn't seem to be around, let's carry on :)
<knome> #subtopic Testcases feedback
<knome> astraljava's too, carry on...
<knome> #subtopic Do we need screensaver by default or would a screenlock suffice?
<pleia2> no screensaver
<knome> +1
<ochosi> +1
<bluesabre> +1
<knome> the default savers aren't very good looking anyway
<knome> #agree Drop screensavers by default
<pleia2> \o/
<ochosi> great
<bluesabre> no screensaver, but monitor power management enabled?
<knome> bluesabre, sure.
<knome> bluesabre, screensaver is just the visual thingy.
<pleia2> yeah, I think we just set it to blank instead
<bluesabre> Yeah, but I think the default settings don't power off the monitor
<ochosi> we need a screenlocker though
<ochosi> it actually is a planned feature of lightdm
<ochosi> no clue what the progress is on that though
<knome> #nick xubuntu-team
<knome> #action xubuntu-team to investigate adding a screenlocker
<meetingology> ACTION: xubuntu-team to investigate adding a screenlocker
<knome> #action xubuntu-team to investigate default settings for monitor power management
<meetingology> ACTION: xubuntu-team to investigate default settings for monitor power management
<knome> #subtopic Schedule next meeting
<knome> is there a milestone that requires us to have a meeting next week?
<knome> apparently not
<knome> no, wait
<knome> we do
<pleia2> yeah, next milestone in 2 weeks + 1 day
<knome> #action knome to announce the next meeting, which will be held on 18th of July at #xubuntu-devel
<meetingology> ACTION: knome to announce the next meeting, which will be held on 18th of July at #xubuntu-devel
<knome> that date even made sense!
<knome> #endmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Jul 11 15:53:46 2012 UTC.  
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2012/xubuntu-devel.2012-07-11-15.04.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2012/xubuntu-devel.2012-07-11-15.04.html
<knome> tara
<pleia2> ty
<ochosi> thanks
<knome> i'll set up the minutes later today, unless somebody wants to do that now?
<knome> :P
<pleia2> work time for me now
<knome> hehe, yeah, i was waiting for the excuses!
<knome> ,)
<knome> np if you can't
<pleia2> :)
<knome> i'm off to think what to eat, see you later
<pleia2> enjoy
<knome> hehe, thanks
<knome> i'll try to...
<genii-around> Interesting to see the meeting bot in actual action. We are thinking to use it for our LoCo meetings.
<knome> genii-around, i can recommend it; even if the output logs are not perfect -yet
<genii-around> knome: I was playing with it a bit in #meetingology yesterday, trying to get the hang of how it works. JoseeAntonioR kind enough to assist some. I like it basically summarizes then you could always look at the full log if you want to see what everyone actually said in the channel, etc.
<knome> yes, but of course, you need to use it correctly so it can give you the "minutes" ;)
<genii-around> That's the tricky part, yeah. So it was good for me to see actual usage here
<knome> glad that we could help :)
<Unit193> knome: I am now. :P
<knome> well, yeah ;)
<micahg> knome: I should be able to make the meeting in future weeks
<knome> micahg, great! :)
<pleia2> oh right, added next one to calendar
<pleia2> and facebook link is now on our site
#xubuntu-devel 2012-07-12
 * pleia2 tries template page for meeting minutes
<pleia2> if I knew what day it was that'd be awesome
<pleia2> anyway, meeting minutes are up now
<pleia2> and tweeted
<GridCube> x
<genii-around> pleia2: Do you have a link? I would like to see how different it looks from the meetingology stock page...
<genii-around> Actually I found it :)
<ochosi> elfy: did you get a chance to test light-software-center yet?
<elfy> nope - was the one I linked you yesterday they one you meant? 
<ochosi> oh, you linked me to something?
<ochosi> sorry, must've overlooked it
<elfy> https://launchpad.net/light-software-center
<ochosi> yeah, that's it
<elfy> k
<elfy> ochosi: I'm happy to run it and help - but I'd need some pointers how to install it :)
<ochosi> elfy: that's the thing, you have to clone the bzr branch and then build it
<ochosi> there's no ppa yet afaik
<elfy> !! sounds like voodoo to me ... I do have bzr setup here - was looking at the ubuntu manual 
<ubottu> elfy: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :)
<elfy> silly ubottu
<ochosi> first you run bzr branch lp:light-software-center
<ochosi> then you have the code and start looking for build instructions there :)
<elfy> ok 
<elfy> will look today 
<ochosi> i guess "./autogen.sh && make" should work
<elfy> okey doke
<ochosi> and then hopefully you'll get an executable in /src
<ochosi> i mean: src/
<ochosi> then you won't have to run "sudo make install"
<elfy> ok
<elfy> don't have bzr lol - it's in 12.04 - getting perm denied errors atm - I'll sort it out and have a play
<elfy> thanks for the help
<ochosi> you'll also need libpackagekit-glib2-dev
<elfy> ok
<ochosi> and actually you have to run "./autogen.sh && ./configure"
<ochosi> (and then make i assume)
<ochosi> and you need libsqlheavy-dev
<ochosi> ok, i'm off for now, bbl
<elfy> k - cya
<ochosi> good luck elfy  :)
<elfy> :)
 * astraljava hasn't yet figured out the logic behind alternating between elfy and hobgoblin.
<elfy> astraljava: elfy is my forum nick - so if there are people in the #uf channel floating about that are new I use it so they know who I am 
<elfy> but I tend to be hobgoblin on IRC 
<astraljava> Yeah ok. :)
<elfy> ochosi: I have officially given up with that :| 
<astraljava> What seems to be the problem?
<elfy> bzr won't let me get the branch - Permission denied (publickey).
<elfy> maybe it all needs time to talk to each other - who can tell
<elfy> I did the pgp key thing and bzr lets me login without any trouble
<elfy> oh - is it an ssh key I need ?
<astraljava> elfy: Yes.
<elfy> lmao
<elfy> that works then ... ;P
<elfy> ty astraljava :)
<astraljava> Oh no worries, that was altogether... 10 key presses to help. I won't charge you for that small a fix.
<astraljava> Actually, it was less than that, cause I used tab completion. So it was 1. e, 2. <tab>, 3. <shift>, 4. y, 5. e, 6. s, 7. . and 8. <enter>.
<ochosi> elfy: so, did you get anywhere?
<elfy> I am now bald
<elfy> got almost there :) - it won't make though make: *** No targets specified and no makefile found. Stop.
<ochosi> you mean as in: you don't have any hair on your head anymore?
<ochosi> a-ha, well maybe you have to do something else, i haven't looked at the build-system
<elfy> yea - I rarely do this so I've no real experience to draw on 
<ochosi> this suggests it should work that way: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~lubuntu-software-center-team/light-software-center/trunk/view/head:/INSTALL
<ochosi> did configure succeed?
<ochosi> as in: did you get all the build-deps installed?
<elfy> d'oh
<ochosi> ;)
<elfy> missing gtk+-3.0 
<ochosi> lol
<elfy> a bit firther then lol
<ochosi> in that case you have to try to configure until you don't get any of those errors anymore :)Ã
<elfy> I just assumed that when you said ./autogen && make that would do it all :)
<elfy> I shall soldier on :)
<ochosi> i corrected myself though with that and mentioned at least two dependencies
<elfy> I got those :)
<elfy> anyway - I shall play a bit more now :)
<elfy> ochosi: http://i.imgur.com/oj8ha.png
<elfy> empty - but I got further than I was :)
<ochosi> yup
<ochosi> looks almost ok :)
<elfy> yep
<elfy> thanks for the help 
<ochosi> np
<ochosi> so did configure and make succeed without errors?
<ochosi> or were there some issues with packagekit which could be the reason for no pkgs showing up
<elfy> didn't see any errors about packagekit
<elfy> I can redo it all - didn't take long once I wasn't making daft mistakes 
<ochosi> yeah, you can run ./configure and make anytime again
<ochosi> btw, it's possible that you have to run "sudo make install" for it to really work...
<elfy> ok
<ochosi> (you can still uninstall it, just not via package-management)
<elfy> no errors that I could see - a warning is all, if you want to look then it's all here http://pastebin.com/aCrwLbsz
<elfy> there is a dbbuild in the /usr/local/bin that's new though 
<ochosi> you just ran ./autogen?
<elfy> and configure and sudo make install 
<ochosi> and make?
<elfy> not make 
<ochosi> you should try that :)
<ochosi> autogen is only needed once, then configure and make
<ochosi> then make install
<elfy> still empty :)
<elfy> anyway - gtg now for a bit
<ochosi> okeydokey
<elfy> but if you have time later - then we could try and get it working so I can try it out - or anyone else :)
<ochosi> ok sure
<ochosi> elfy: just talked to one of the lsc-devs, it's simply not ready (and won't be for 12.10)
<ochosi> knome: since you and i are assignees for that workitem ^ i think we have to look elsewhere for alternatives
<ochosi> knome: (replace USC/Synaptic with light-software-center)
<knome> ochosi, ok
<knome> i'm off, see you later
<ochosi> me too
<elfy> ok ochosi - I will forget all about that then - if there is a need in the future for it let me knwo
<ochosi> elfy: yup, thanks!
<pleia2> web admin people (requires log in): thoughts on what to add to this? http://xubuntu.org/?p=1325
<knome> pleia2, btw, anybody in the -team has access to anything unpublished, including editing ;)
<pleia2> I know, I guess I mean "web admin people" as "anyone who cares enough" ;)
<knome> pleia2, i'd move twitter to be the first, but that's just personal preference
<pleia2> not everyone has accounts
<knome> account is created when you log in with ubuntu sso
<pleia2> I know
<knome> anyway, twitter as first, and maybe mention they are listed on the xubuntu.org footer :)
<knome> and i might just write the parenthesis on the second paragraph "open" some way or other
<knome> i mean, remove the parenthesis and the contents, and if we need to say that aloud, start a new sentence :)
<pleia2> yeah, trying to figure out how to say we didn't just take over the feeds :)
<knome> heh
<knome> "We definitely want to involve more people in the project, and that's why we have let the original admins keep their privileges - and to be exact, keep on running the groups as they used to"
<knome> or so
<pleia2> ok, "As our intention was to not only reach more users through these resources, but also to involve more people in the project, for each of these resources weâve asked them to keep on running the groups as they used to."
<pleia2> http://www.techdrivein.com/2012/07/xubuntu-1204-lts-review-perfect.html
<ochosi> nice review
<pleia2> added to our press page :)
<drc> Just a note, the Softpedia link is titled "Ubuntu 12.04 LTS Screenshot Tour at Softpedia" rather than Xubuntu.
<pleia2> drc: fixed, thank you!
#xubuntu-devel 2012-07-13
<pleia2> so, thinking about posting this social media post, any more comments? :) http://xubuntu.org/?p=1325
<genii-around> Seems to be a 404
<pleia2> yeah, sorry, not published yet so you need to be logged in
<pleia2> xubuntu team members have accounts
<genii-around> pleia2: Ah, OK. 
<pleia2> I'm going to be out of town on alpha3 release day, so I can help with release notes early in the week, but then I'll be mostly out through Sunday
<pleia2> (running off to OSCON for a couple days)
<ochosi> pleia2: that social-media post seems fine to me!
#xubuntu-devel 2012-07-14
<pleia2> ochosi: thanks :)
<Unit193> ochosi: Greybird as pulled a couple minutes ago: http://ubuntuone.com/2pfGnmYshrqupPO6icW49N
<ochosi> Unit193: please add it to the existing bug-report (although it has been confirmed for quantal already, but it's a very nice illustration): bug #948128
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 948128 in abiword (Ubuntu) "Abiword Ruler Text and Ticks White" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/948128
<Unit193> I *knew* I shouldn't have said anything.... :P
<Unit193> Though there is already one, still need another?
<ochosi> as you wish
<ochosi> anyway, i guess the main point is that we *do* have serious issues with the current version of abiword
<Unit193> Meh, if it helps.
<Unit193> ....Next time I need to remember to hide the user/time.
<knome> is there a reason gdebi is not installed on my system?
<ochosi> it hasn't been installed by default for a few releases now
<ochosi> basically got replaced by USC
<knome> hmm. looks like there's something weird going on with the gtk stuff
<knome> let me take a shot
<ochosi> not even sure that gdebi still works as it should
<hobgoblin> works fine here afaik
<knome> ochosi, http://temp.knome.fi/shimmer/other/gdebi-gtk.png
<ochosi> i vaguely remember that it's not really maintained anymore
<knome> fstt
<knome> what's with people not maintaining good stuff?
<Unit193> Too busy wasting time on USC and the like for gdebi and synaptic.
<knome> yeah, boo
<Unit193> While synaptic wouldn't do much for me, I'll admit I do use gdebi, and would have to find another little handy thing or go fully to dpkg -i
#xubuntu-devel 2012-07-15
<pleia2> astraljava: meeting in 20 minutes?
<pleia2> 1,011 FOLLOWERS
<pleia2> :D
<pleia2> ^^ twitter
<pleia2> ok, well I did have a couple items for the meeting, but not full meeting if I'm the only one here ;)
<pleia2> 1. Now that we've reviewed /Short and /Long we should probably move them over to the QA wiki
<pleia2> 2. People doing ISO testing for Xubuntu via the broader Ubuntu QA team still don't have a way to find /Short and /Long, can we talk to the Ubuntu QA team about adding links to the bottom of a couple of the tests saying "Next, if testing Xubuntu you do..." or just link them in the testcases on the tracker itself?
<pleia2> I think that's all, I'll be around for the next couple hours
<pleia2> so, shirt from zazzle: http://www.flickr.com/photos/pleia2/7575566200/sizes/o/
<pleia2> :\
<pleia2> I gave their support folks a nudge to see if this is what we should expect on their darker shirts
<pleia2> (they're pretty expensive too!)
<knome> pleia2, huh
<hobgoblin> http://www.explosm.net/comics/2862/
<hobgoblin> whoops :)
<hobgoblin> channel fail lol
<knome> no, user fail
<knome> the channel didn't fail
<hobgoblin> :)
<pleia2> knome: where are we with the docs rewrite?
<knome> we now have the groups of people...
 * pleia2 nods
<hobgoblin> anything else?
<knome> nope.
<knome> we should proceed with stuff, but i've been somewhat busy lately
<knome> somebody want to grab and continue?
#xubuntu-devel 2013-07-08
<bluesabre> forestpiskie: lightdm-gtk-greeter 1.6 is in saucy.  It's going to have some appearance bugs until the new artwork package is in
<bluesabre> also, abiword 3.0 looks to be in there now as well
<bluesabre> and, if all of this has already been said, well I haven't read the backlog yet :)
<bluesabre> looks like I might in the clear :)
<micahg> bluesabre: what happened to your merge from Debian?
<bluesabre> micahg: I worked with mr_pouit; did a debdiff from ubuntu's 1.5.1 to 1.6.0
<micahg> bluesabre: yeah, but it was just an Ubuntu update, didn't seem to be a merge from Debian
<bluesabre> yeah, I wasn't entirely sure what to do when I started with it :D
<bluesabre> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/lightdm-gtk-greeter/+bug/1197774
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1197774 in lightdm-gtk-greeter (Ubuntu) "Please update lightdm-gtk-greeter to 1.6.0" [Wishlist,In progress]
<micahg> you can start with the grab-merge script and work from there, but from what I saw, we want quite a bit of what Debian changed in the packaging
<bluesabre> it's already been upgraded to 1.6
<micahg> yes, but we can still merge the packaging from Debian
<bluesabre> ah
<bluesabre> I might take a look at that tomorrow then
<bluesabre> its pretty late, heading to bed now
<micahg> bluesabre: sure, no rush
<glitchd_> hello all
<Noskcaj> hello glitchd_ 
<glitchd_> i know this is the devel channel, but might i be able to try and seek a little assistance from anyone in here?
<mr_pouit> micahg: I told him to do an update instead of a merge: too many differences between debian and ubuntu (e.g. lightdm-set-defaults vs. alternatives), I find a merge a bit pointless in this case (well, unless you only want the revision to be -1ubuntuX ;>)
<Pwnna> is xubuntu willing to deviate from xfce4's original package a little bit if i added feature to things like xfce4-screenshooter or mousepad?
<ochosi> Pwnna: upstream is always ideal ;)
<Pwnna> ochosi: fork if no one is maintaining! :P
<ochosi> Pwnna: it's not been that long that mousepad had a release (especially considering how long before the previous release was)
<Unit193> Pwnna: Did you have anything in mind?  Maybe an upload to another site? ;)
<Pwnna> Unit193: xfce4-screenshooter enhancement (multiple uploader support)
<Pwnna> (go back button, these are all bugs in xfce4)
<Pwnna> some simple mousepad improvement that improves usability
#xubuntu-devel 2013-07-09
<ochosi> hm, and the fact that screenshooter keeps two dialogs open is also not very nice...
<ochosi> wondering whether that's _really_ necessary
<Pwnna> the screenshooter needs to be better. needless to say
<ochosi> Pwnna: see, and a few minutes ago you were talking about forking something ;)
<Unit193> ochosi: Do you know if they're trying to deprecate exo, though?
<micahg> mr_pouit: watch file + cleaner debian/rules AFAICT, maybe I'll take a look
<Pwnna> ochosi: well. if they're not gonna upstream my screenshooter patch (when i write them), i will fork it! 
<Pwnna> :P
<ochosi> Unit193: maybe with the move to gtk3, afaik, but not before then
<Unit193> micahg: For the gtk-greeter, Debian updated watchfile, compat, build-deps, deps, recommends, and changed some compile flags.  http://paste.openstack.org/show/yTPIdkqjXQXDvNDMOjjG/ is the full diff, lintian-overrides may or may not be interesting, but the patch isn't and I don't think the pre/post scripts are either.
<drc> ans that ladies and gentlemen, is both the strength and weakness of FOSS..."If they won't do what I want, fork'em"
<Unit193> ochosi: Hrm, would they move to xdg?  I'm really hopeing so (xfce4-terminal already lost it.)
<Pwnna> yeah. xfce4-terminal.
<Pwnna> i want to add features there too
<Unit193> Pwnna: Bit offtopic, but don't see you there.  You said something about changing keybinds?  Would this mess with applications such as screen?  Have a list of things you plan to take a peak at?
<Pwnna> Unit193: that's the point! 
<Pwnna> i want my terminal emulator to be my tmux :P
<Pwnna> maybe i should just jump on the finalterm train
<Noskcaj> what package is the shutdown button from?
<Noskcaj> What package is the "logoff" window in?
<GridCube> hi
<GridCube> sorry my internet wasnt working :/
<GridCube> its there someone here for the meeting?
<lderan> yup
<lderan> and he's gone :(
<smartboyhw> lderan, The next meeting is on Thursday, July 11 at 15:00 UTC on #xubuntu-devel in the Freenode IRC network (chat.freenode.net). (on the wiki page)
<lderan> smartboyhw: aye I know of that one, but there was going to be a mini one today for the desktop gallery
<GridCube> :( 
<knome> GridCube, what?
<GridCube> i coordinated a meeting for the wallpaper things and i couldnt be here on time, and now i do have other things to do
<GridCube> :( sorry
<lderan> ah well, it can be rescheduled if need be :)
<jessejazza> Isn't the chat about development taking place tonight?
<holstein> jessejazza: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings
<jessejazza> thanks - i wasn't quite sure about UTC but now i realise it's the same as GMT.
<jessejazza> I've missed it but not to worry
<Unit193> jessejazza: Lack of people, there wasn't one.
<Unit193> jessejazza: The wallpaper/artwork one, that is.
<jessejazza> It does seem 1500 UTC is an awkward time. Most folk are at work (even if IT professional) may not be able to take part. 1900 or 2000 would be a better time i'd have thought
<pleia2> hooray for time zones :)
<Unit193> They should all just use EST, make it easier already.
<lderan> :P
<Noskcaj> i vote 2000UTC, then i can actually attend
<pleia2> Unit193: heh, it wasn't actually until I moved to the west coast that I realized Eastern US was the center of the world
<Unit193> Only lived in Ohio, what can I say?
<pleia2> just smile and nod
 * drc used to have a watch (back in the analog days) that had two faces, one for local time and one for zulu (utc) time.  Made things easier.
<pleia2> I have 5 clocks on my xfce panel
<pleia2> no, 4 now
<drc> I only have one...could care less what time it is on the Isle of Man or anywhere else for that matter.  All I care about is what the local meal time is :)
#xubuntu-devel 2013-07-10
<Noskcaj> Are there any xubuntu "needs-packaging" bugs?
<micahg> Noskcaj: gtk-theme-config needs packaging, but it requires some upstream patches (or debian/rules configuration) for generating images
<micahg> are you up for generating images from svg files?
<Noskcaj> ok. back to random package that i hope are easy
<micahg> Noskcaj: you can hijack my ITP in Debian if you like :)
<micahg> err..RFP
<Noskcaj> micahg, i have no idea what i'm doing, i'm looking at bug 1199017 ATM
<ubottu> bug 1199017 in Ubuntu "[needs-packaging] ubuntuone-credentials" [Wishlist,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1199017
<micahg> Noskcaj: that's already packaged and needs review/sponsorship
<Noskcaj> oops
<Noskcaj> *facepalm
<Noskcaj> can you walk me through what i have to do for that debian RFP?
<micahg> Noskcaj: pull the Ubuntu packaging, clean it up, push to mentors.debian.net
<micahg> oh, and upgrade the package to the latest version
<micahg> was 0.10.3 last time I checked (about 6 months ago)
<Noskcaj> 10.6
<micahg> I'm happy to be an Uploader for the package if you want a co-maintainer
<Noskcaj> and none of what you said means anything to me
<micahg> or I'm happy to be the maintainer
<micahg> Noskcaj: so, maybe start working with packaging rather than trying to package from scratch?
<Noskcaj> yeah
<micahg> though, the RFP might be a good way to do that
<micahg> the packaging works, you can use lintian to tell you what needs to be cleaned up
<micahg> though this would be OT here, more appropriate for -motu
 * micahg actually needs to go to sleep now, maybe another night
<Noskcaj> ok, good night. 
<elfy> bluesabre: thanks - as soon as the artwork is in we'll get it tested somehow 
<elfy> Noskcaj: not sure what went on there - but got around to pushing the 1574_xfce4settings tests again now
<Noskcaj> ok
<Noskcaj> elfy, you might want to work out the conflicts first
<elfy> conficts with what 
<elfy> I really do wish that people didn't use cryptic comments
<elfy> Noskcaj: I can't see anything wrong with it
<Noskcaj> On the LP page notice the diff says "conflicts". that mean you have to make sure you're using the latest version of the trunk, because something changed since you last merged from the trunk.
<elfy> I'll look later - I'll repush it when I've done that - I've abandoned that branch for the time being
<Noskcaj> ok
<elfy> seems a bit illogical to me, though I'm not surprised by that 
<elfy> someone moved the damn thing into XFCE
<Noskcaj> that was either me or knome. 
<elfy> might have been me :p
<elfy> oh good lord diverge issues now - not doing this now - not got time
<pleia2> forestpiskie: thank you :)
 * pleia2 still not a guy
#xubuntu-devel 2013-07-11
<forestpiskie> pleia2: glad to hear it :p
<ochosi> hi everyone (and knome), i don't think i'll be able to make the meeting today
<ochosi> kinda a bad time for me
<ochosi> (still possible that i do, just wanted to let you guys know in advance)
<elfy> thanks 
<bluesabre> For the meeting, I'm going to try to connect with my phone or something.  The owners of my company are going to be in today, so no laptop in the office
<knome> lol
<lderan> cursed owners :P
<knome> heh.
<knome> bbl
<elfy> hi ToZ 
<ToZ> Hi elfy
 * pleia2 yawns
<pleia2> morning
<elfy> morning pleia2 
<knome> hello!
<knome> 4 minutes
<bluesabre_work> morning folks :)
<elfy> hi bluesabre_work 
<skellat> \o
<skellat> o/
<skellat> \o/
<knome> hey both of skellat's arms
<skellat> Getting warmed up
<knome> yup
<GridCube> i dont know how longer my modem will stay connected so ill INFO now
 * knome just put the coffee maker on
<elfy> hi jono :)
<knome> hey jono!
 * skellat checks to see his decaf tea mug to see if it is optimally filled
<jono> hey knome :-)
<elfy> skellat: they make decaf tea - I am appalled :|
<skellat> elfy: I can't have caffeine
<knome> #startmeeting Xubuntu community meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Jul 11 15:00:20 2013 UTC.  The chair is knome. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<knome> #chair elfy pleia2 
<meetingology> Current chairs: elfy knome pleia2
<elfy> micahg-work: ping
<jono> hey everyone :-)
<lderan> hello :)
<skellat> Good morning jono
<pleia2> o/
<knome> since we have jono as a guest here today, and he has a tight schedule i'm sure, let's go ahead with the mir discussion right away
<knome> #topic Mir, XMir, X, and stuff (with Jono Bacon) 
<bluesabre_work> sounds good to me
<jono> thanks knome :-)
<jono> so I have been reaching out to each of the flavors to discuss Mir
<jono> and to discuss their plans for 13.10 and 14.04
<jono> much of the discussions so far has been the flavors asking technical questions about Mir and what is involved in integrating it
<jono> so I just wanted to reach out to you folks to see what Xubuntu's perspective is, and if there is any support and guidance I can help with, or the Mir team can help with
<elfy> jono: these discussions documented anywhere ?
<jono> elfy, no, they have been on phone calls
<knome> i suppose the first question has to be: what options do we have and which of those are more or less "canonical-supported"
<jono> knome, good question
<jono> so these are the options I think:
<jono> for 13.10:
<jono>  * XMir + Mir - this will been you can run XFCE without any changes - it will run just like normal on the XMir compatibility layer
<jono> XMir is currently seeing a wealth of performance improvements and will match the speed of X in 13.10
<jono> XMir + Mir will be fully supported by Canonical and will be our primary display server stack
<jono> also, XMir is a very thin layer so it should not introduce any bugs into Xubuntu, and if you do see a bug, it will be so obvious it is XMir
<jono>  * Use the regular X stack - Canonical will not be maintaining a regular X stack, the X we will maintain will be XMir + Mir
<jono> for 14.04:
<jono>  * XMir + Mir - again, you can ship XFCE just like normal using our X compatibility layer
<micahg-work> jono, I thought for 13.10 Canonical would maintain the X stack as a fallback for those drivers that aren't supported by XMir
<jono>  * Use the regular X stack - again, Canonical will not be supporting X in 14.04, and I suspect this will degrade as the five year support period progresses
<jono>  * XFCE using Mir - another option, and one which we would like to encourage upstreams with, is to build a Mir backend for the desktop
<pleia2> our upstream is a smaller team than we are, I think getting Xfce to write for Mir is highly unlikely
<jono> micahg-work, yes, so if a driver cannot work with Mir (at the moment, proprietary drivers) it will fallback to X
<knome> +1 for micahg-work's and pleia2's comments
<GridCube> highly
<micahg-work> jono, as we're not even sure if we're shipping Xfce 4.12  as it's not released, having Mir as a backend for Xfce in the 14.04 timeframe is very unlikely
<pleia2> (they don't even have Waylan plans right now)
<jono> micahg-work, so we will maintain the fallback
<pleia2> Wayland
<jono> pleia2, I can understand that concern
<pleia2> I also have concern that we're halfway through the cycle and not only is xmir not in the repos, but when Unit193, skellat and I tested it, only skellat was actually able to get it to run
<bluesabre_work> I also tested it with no luck
<skellat> When I had that up the experience was clearly sub-optimal
<jono> pleia2, XMir should land in the next two weeks, and you can test XFCE with Xmir today using the PPA in the interim
<skellat> We have users, not test subjects
<knome> jono, so should we interpret that as you will or will not maintain X in 13.03?
<pleia2> jono: we tried to use the PPA, it fails
<Unit193> In theory you can test it, the one from the PPA just crashed at startup, on all 3 computers I tried.
<jono> knome, to be clearer, our maintained X stack will be XMir + Mir, not desktops using X directly
<pleia2> yeah, all mine fail back to xorg
<jono> pleia2, when did you try it?
<pleia2> jono: last night
<jono> pleia2, ahhh, I thought that was fixed
<jono> there was an issue in the last few days
<skellat> I got it to boot last night on a System76 Starling netbook but the UI experience was suboptimal with two cursors barely tracking each other correctly
<micahg-work> jono, why for 13.10 is the X stack support being dropped since it's still the fallback?
<jono> pleia2, I will ensure the Mir team look into that
<jono> skellat, the two cursor thing is temporary - the second cursor just shows you are in Mir
<jono> skellat, that will be removed soon and a watermark used
<skellat> jono: They shouldn't be **both** moving like a bad VirtualBox session though
<jono> skellat, it is *temporary* :-)
<jono> skellat, it is a poor man's watermark :-)
<bluesabre_work> haha
<jono> micahg-work, X is not dropped, it will be just maintained to support XMir
<knome> jono, is there a mailing list or other output where the mir-related news are updated (and mir-devel isn't what i'm looking for, that's too high traffic)
<jono> micahg-work, I think a Mir engineer can provide a better response on this question on the details, I will note that down
<jono> knome, you raise a great question
<micahg-work> jono, right, I get the X stack through XMir is supported, I'm just not sure why straight X support would be dropped for 13.10 being that it's the fallback (I understand for 14.04)
<jono> knome, so in terms of a list, we don't have anything for just updates, but I have been thinking about providing weekly flavor updates of Mir progress, would that be useful?
<jono> micahg-work, I will check with the Mir team with what the difference is
<knome> jono, that sounds fair. if it's doable, just subscribe our developer mailing list for that mailing.
<jono> knome, will do, thanks for the note
<jono> we do have the weekly video update, but I understand that that is not the same
<GridCube> nope 
<jono> so it sounds like upstream are currently focusing on X, is that right?
<Unit193> From what I've seen, Mir/XMir isn't even planning on getting virtual support until August, that's pretty close to release date (And FF?)...
<pleia2> unfortunately we're all pretty busy, it's impossible for most of us to take an hour out of our week to watch a video
<jono> Unit193, virtual support?
<GridCube> xfce upstream yes
<knome> jono, they have pretty much only one active contributor, so they aren't really "focusing" on any display server...
<Unit193> jono: vmware, virtualbox.
<pleia2> scanning IRC logs and similar is much faster and easier
<jono> knome, gotcha
<knome> pleia2, or a good old email
<pleia2> or at least having a summary emailed somewhere so we know if portions of the video are worth our time
<skellat> A late drop toward Feature Freeze has us worried that there would be a need to scramble in case we find that we feel XMir is not in a condition we feel comfortable shipping to users.
<pleia2> skellat: +1
<jono> knome, so in terms of Xubuntu, upstream can continue to ship an X display server in 14.04
<skellat> We want our users to have a finished product instead of a work in progress.
<jono> with XMir
<jono> Unit193, I haven't tested it in a VM, I have heard mixed reports of whether it works
<jono> Unit193, but I think you face that issue with Wayland too
<Unit193> It doesn't in vbox.
<Unit193> I don't with X.
<knome> i've heard it simply "does not work" with virtualbox.
<pleia2> jono: understand, wayland is not even on the horizon for us
<skellat> I had a race condition with VirtualBox last night testing our test disc that locked up my machine totally
<pleia2> it's not on Xfce's roadmap at all
<jono> pleia2, I think an email summary might be easiest - we take notes for the video, I could send those
<jono> pleia2, right
<pleia2> so we're talking about sticking with xorg or using xmir, no mir or wayland in the discussion :)
<jono> ok, so it sounds like the primary focus here for you folks is being able to ship the current codebase, and test it with XMir
<pleia2> yeah, since most of our tests fail this is a very concerning situation
<mrpouit> how far is xmir wrt xrandr support?
<mrpouit> and xi?
<jono> whoever tested the PPA and it failed, could you email a summary of the problem?
<knome> Unit193, can you coordinate a... coordinated reply? :)
<jono> I recommend we kick off an email discussion thread about getting you folks up and running
<pleia2> my errors were the same as Unit193's
<jono> so it was pleia2 and Unit193 who tested it?
<pleia2> and bluesabre_work 
<knome> and skellat and bluesabre_work 
<skellat> jono: And me
<bluesabre_work> mine as well
<elfy> I can look at trying it as well on one of the lappies
<pleia2> it worked for skellat though :)
<Unit193> pleia2: I had a couple different ones.
<lderan> aye same
<elfy> so it won't be virtual 
<knome> i can probably chime in with some hardware at some point
<knome> (if badly needed)
<jono> ok, pleia2, would you mind starting an email thread with everyone involved and copying me in, and summarize the issues, I will then copy a Mir engineer in
<skellat> pleia2: It bootstrapped but wasn't very functional.  Not sure if that counts as worked.
<jono> this is also pretty temporary, it should land in the archive in the next few weeks, but at least in the interim you can do some testing
<knome> pleia2, please delegate to Unit193 and make sure he CC's xubuntu-devel ;)
<jono> skellat, define functional?
<holstein> pleia2: if you can easily, add me. i will test with a machine i am wiping this week
<pleia2> #action Unit193 to collect details about Mir failures and email to -devel, jono and testers
<meetingology> ACTION: Unit193 to collect details about Mir failures and email to -devel, jono and testers
<skellat> jono: Being able to boot without the kernel apparently going into a fault condition and nm-applet failing
<skellat> I couldn't report flaws as it wouldn't connect to a network
<jono> skellat, that is outside of XMir
<slickymaster> pleia2, you can also include me if you want. I can test it, also
<jono> skellat, that sounds like another issue
<pleia2> slickymaster: great! (and welcome :))
<micahg-work> well, the sooner it lands, the sooner we can evaluate, I think we'd like to take a decision about a week before feature freeze whether or not to go with XMir for 13.10
<jono> today XFCE should work as expected with XMir, apart from the annoying extra cursor
<skellat> jono: We'll park that then for later review
<pleia2> micahg-work: +1
<jono> multi-monitor is also being worked on and will not expose any regressions in Mir
<knome> i definitely +1 micahg-work
 * elfy does as well
<micahg-work> jono, can you speak to mr_pouit's questions?  they revolve around some base functionality
<skellat> +1 micahg-work
<jono> micahg-work, agreed, rest assured the Mir team are peddling as fast as they can :-)
<knome> jono, d'oh, don't promise us that since it will have bugs (not to say i don't believe you don't fix them ;))
<jono> micahg-work, which questions?
<elfy> <mrpouit> how far is xmir wrt xrandr support?
<elfy> <mrpouit> and xi?
<pleia2> 08:18:28 < mrpouit> how far is xmir wrt xrandr support?
<micahg-work> <mrpouit> how far is xmir wrt xrandr support?
<micahg-work> <mrpouit> and xi?
<pleia2> 08:18:45 < mrpouit> and xi?
<pleia2> haha
<elfy> lol
<knome> flood alert!
<jono> knome, I am sure there will be some bugs, but we will get 'em fixed :-)
<knome> there are three trolls in the channel..
<jono> mrpouit, are you referring specifically to multi-monitor?
<mrpouit> jono, yes
<jono> mrpouit, so the goal for 13.10 is zero regressions
<mrpouit> ffrom what I could find (basically, nothing, xmir isn't documented at all), there's no plan
<jono> some reading that will help:
<jono>  * blueprint: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/client-1310-mir-multimonitor
<jono>  * thread: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/mir-devel/2013-June/000235.html
<jono> mrpouit, if you have any further questions, mir-devel will be the best place to ask them, the engineers live there
<knome> so what's the situation with (X)Mir documentation in general?
<jono> knome, what kind of docs do you mean?
<jono> integrating it?
<knome> any documentation.
<mrpouit> I think he means: "written documentation", without needing to listen to 1-hour long videos
<knome> ^ that
<jono> knome, docs currently live at http://unity.ubuntu.com/mir/
<jono> the docs are improving each week too
<knome> mrpouit, do you have insight if that's even near what we'd need?
<jono> if you have any further questions about integration Mir, the Mir team can help answer them
<jono> I have asked dholbach to merge new docs into the core Mir docs
<knome> jono, i would say one of the things that really should start working is xmir with virtualbox
<jono> knome, I will note down to see where that sits right now
<mrpouit> knome, yeah, planning for example. Also, what about ewmh, xrandr, xi? Will the support be identical to Xorg?
<jono> I am not sure how far along that is
<jono> mrpouit, yes
<jono> everything should be the same
<jono> mrpouit, but again, if you have specific questions, mir-devel is the best place to ask
<Unit193> "Should be", and "are" aren't always the same. ;)
<knome> since we have an already small testing team and many of the tests are run with virtualbox... you can see where you leave us if xmir isn't working with it
<mrpouit> jono, is it the same kind of promise as "gtk2 indicators will be maintained during all the 12.04 lifetime", and they got dropped for 12.10? :)
<jono> Unit193, which is why I am recommending mrpouit posts to the list ;-)
<jono> knome, can you elaborate on the tests? automated tests?
<knome> jono, manual tests
<jono> mrpouit, I don't know about indicator support
<jono> knome, ahhh gotcha, well I will see if it runs in a VM, I have heard mixed reports tbh
<bluesabre_work> jono, what are the additional memory requirements of using XMir as opposed to just X?
<knome> jono, i suppose he's asking that you keep what you promise - that wasn't the case with the gtk2 indicators
<pleia2> none of us have gotten it to work in virtualbox either
<knome> jono, as i said, i've heard that it simply doesn't work with virtualbox.
<mrpouit> jono: basically, you're asking us to trust you on that, because right now to be able to take an informed decision we have to wait for the bits to land, and they land very very late, when it's too late to decide...
<jono> knome, XMir will definitely be supported as we need it to ship Unity :-)
<jono> mrpouit, I appreciate that, but the Mir team can only work so fast
<skellat> mrpouit: What date would you call as the "point of no return" where we need to make decisions?
<jono> which is why I am recommending you test with the PPA - the issues with the PPA recently were a blip
<pleia2> we've all been testing with the ppa
<Unit193> And it's crashed over and over.
<jono> pleia2, if there are issues with the PPA I would encourage you to report them to mir-devel so the devs can get them fixed
<jono> they are very responsive
<knome> jono, it doesn't work with hardware or virtualbox. if you can't promise it won't work for 13.10, don't
<jono> knome, can't promise what will work?
<knome> jono, (x)mir for xubuntu
<mrpouit> skellat, I'm not sure, this is probably a question for the testers too, but end of july would have been the limit (after that people go to vacation/will be less available). Maybe we can wait until feature freeze, but meh :P
<jono> knome, I can promise XMir will work in the archive
<jono> we have committed to that
<jono> again, we need it to ship Ubuntu itself
<elfy> committed to it working with Ubuntu or everything? 
<knome> elfy, +1
<lderan> committed to it being in a usable state for everything as well?
<jono> elfy, we are committed to XMir being the X stack that all flavors can use for their desktops too
<mrpouit> jono, "we're rushing it into 13.10 so 14.04 can be rock-solid" (basically what Olli Ries wrote) isn't very reassuring
<jono> if we make XMir work for Ubuntu, it will work for flavors
<elfy> mrpouit: +1
<micahg-work> I'm not worried about XMir being usable for Ubuntu by release, I'm worried about it being usable enough that we can make an informed decision in time
<jono> mrpouit, it is what it is - it is shipping in 13.10
<jono> this isnt rushing it, this is shipping it
<knome> jono, that's not assuring for us
<jono> knome, what isn't reassuring?
<mrpouit> jono, "it is what it is" << are you really here to listen to our concerns?
<knome> jono, "it will work for flavors", since flavors *aren't* the focus of (x)mir or canonical-paid developers
<jono> mrpouit, I believe I am being responsive to your concerns, but my point is: XMir is landing in 13.10, nothing we discuss here is going to change that - my goal here is to provide as much support as possible to our flavors
<knome> jono, and i understand that, but if you are going to make it work barely in time for ubuntu, why should we trust it's usable for us in 13.10? 
<jono> knome, I think that is a fair point
<skellat> jono: XMir isn't going to turn out like 100 scopes did then?
<jono> if you folks don't feel you have the time to use XMir between when XMir lands and when you ship, that is a reasonable concern
<knome> jono, that just doesn't make sense, even if mark put half of his money and dirty socks in the gamble.
<jono> but there isn't much we can do about it as we can't land Mir any earlier as they are currently working on integrating it
<jono> skellat, ?
<jono> skellat, what do you mean?
<jono> knome, I agree you folks need to make your own call about whether the timelines work for you
<jono> I agree that it is right
<knome> jono, that is exactly our concern; stuff landing too late so we don't really have time to make a decision and not even talking about testing and making it integrated for *us*
<jono> but the Mir team are working long day and nights to get it in ASAP
<elfy> we understand that jono 
<elfy> but we're concerned about us at the moment 
<skellat> jono: 100 scopes was a major commitment for R that had to be delayed to S because it missed deadlines and wasn't in a ship-worthy state in time
<Unit193> #action Unit193 to rebuild the XMir ISO once sufficient changes land in the PPA.
<meetingology> ACTION: Unit193 to rebuild the XMir ISO once sufficient changes land in the PPA.
<lderan> im sure their work will come to fruition well with ubuntu
<jono> skellat, yes, it was delayed because the quality wasnt there - we had received criticism about not shipping low quality code, so we were receptive to that
<pleia2> just to be clear, Xubuntu has always tracked Ubuntu's base and I think we want to here too, we just aren't keen on using our users as guinea pigs on a major portion of the desktop for 13.10 "so it's solid for 14.04"
<knome> jono, so will the it be the same story with mir?
<pleia2> we want to give xmir a chance :) it's just quite scary at the moment
<jono> if the release and QA team don't approve Mir, it won't go in
<jono> pleia2, I can understand that
<jono> so I think the conclusion here is the following:
<jono>  * XMir is landing in the next few weeks
<knome> to be fair, how much control does the release and QA teams really have in that if mark wants it in?
<jono>  * the PPA is available for testing, if there are bugs, please report them to mir-devel so we can fix them
<mrpouit> knome: (zero control, even the release team can not object)
<jono>  * the timescales are short, so the Xubuntu team should make an assessment if XMir is going to work
<Unit193> So, what was the outcome of contacting Kubuntu and Lubuntu anyway?
<jono>  * the Mir team are here to provide help and guidance for Mir-related questions and issues
<knome> mrpouit, exactly my point, but i want to hear that from mr. bacon
<jono> knome, Mark doesn't override the release tean
<jono> teamn
<mrpouit> jono, he does
<knome> yes he does.
<mrpouit> I guess you're not subscribed to the -release bug reports
<jono> that is a seperate discussion, I disagree, but lets not derail this
<knome> jono, that is an important question.
<skellat> mrpouit micahg-work: I guess we need to set a "point of no return" date for the ease of jono when we have to make a decision on XMir by whether we ship it or not
<micahg-work> jono, it's a rarely used power, but it is used
<elfy> jono: well it is part of the dicussion and an important part
<pleia2> skellat: +1
<knome> jono, we don't want to ship a half-broken mir in xubuntu 13.03.
<micahg-work> skellat, I think a week before feature freeze is good
<pleia2> knome: making up version numbers
<knome> i am
<micahg-work> that gives us 6 weeks before final freeze
<pleia2> hehe
<jono> ok, so Mark does use his sabdfl power occassionally, I agree, and he might use it for Mir
<jono> but I don't see how that affects Xubuntu making a decision about XMir
<pleia2> micahg-work: sounds good to me
<knome> jono, so doesn't that effectively lead us to the fact that you really can't promise that mir works with 13.10 ?
<knome> jono, or the mir team, or anybody
<jono> knome, I am promising you based on the information I have
<knome> jono, and also, nobody still stopping it from getting in
<micahg-work> jono, it doesn't, I think they were commenting to whether or not MIR will land is up to release + QA
<jono> I am not a fortune teller
<jono> sure, it could completely blow up if the Mir team get hit by a bus
<jono> :-)
<jono> my point is that based on the planning and trajectory, the Mir team is on track to deliver what they promise
<micahg-work> jono, anyways, I think we'd like to have XMir, if it's ready enough for us, otherwise, we'll reevaluate for 14.04
<jono> I am not denying that they may fail, there may be other issues at play
<knome> or if they simple can't deliver a stable product on time, which happens with tight schedules, even with the best engineers
<jono> knome, right
<skellat> micahg-work mrpouit: Feature Freeze hits on August 29th.  Do we want to call the "go/no-go" date as August 22nd then or what is your pleasure?
<jono> knome, as I say, I am basing everything on their planning and current progress
<jono> I am going to have to run in a second, folks
<micahg-work> skellat, that's what I'm thinking meeting on Aug 22
<jono> I am already really late for a call
<jono> I appreciate the feedback
<knome> jono, so basically, what you are saying is "i hope mir is ready for 13.10", not "i promise mir is ready for 13.10" ?
 * skellat thanks jono for taking the time to join us
<pleia2> thanks jono
<micahg-work> jono, thanks
<elfy> jono: indeed, thanks 
<lderan> thank you jono :)
<knome> jono, thanks, it's much appreciated (though i'd still like to get a yes/no answer to my last question)
<jono> knome, to be clear: the Mir team are targetting 13.10, that is what the full team are working towards, my confidence in that is unimportant, you should assess it yourself
<jono> no one cares what I think anyway
<knome> jono, we do, that's why you were invited to this meeting.
<jono> knome, I would recommend you reach out to the Mir team directly if you need further assurance
<knome> okay
<pleia2> #agree Call the "go/no-go" date for xmir as August 22nd
<jono> knome, I appreciate that, but it seems like every point I have made has been treated with skepticism
<jono> which is fine, which is why I am suggesting you look into it yourself
<knome> jono, sure, but isn't that expected? :)
<jono> my goal here was only to open the discussion
<elfy> you did that ;)
<jono> knome, tbh, not really
<knome> jono, anyway, thanks for joining us and have a nice day!
<jono> knome, but whatever :-)
<micahg-work> I would venture to say if it's not landed at least by Aug 15, that we defer to 14.04
<skellat> pleia2: Shall we have a blog post to announce that in the spirit of openness?
<pleia2> skellat: I'm thinking dev mailing list post that we'll share
<lderan> have a good day jono 
<jono> thanks, all
<knome> +1 for pleia2 
<knome> our website is for communicating with users, and i don't think development related deadline dates fall into that category
<pleia2> (our blog is more user-facing, most think Mir is just a space station that landed in the ocean :))
<skellat> #info (11:47:17 AM) micahg-work: I would venture to say if it's not landed at least by Aug 15, that we defer to 14.04
<skellat> knome pleia2: Understood
<bluesabre_work> thanks jono, have fun!
<xnox> knome: mir is ready enough for me, works fine on my desktop. intel graphics.
<knome> xnox, with xfce?
<pleia2> xnox: intel is the key
<knome> right, that's probably a fair point
<micahg-work> xnox, right, no binary drivers ATM 
<knome> let's test it with non-intel
<GridCube> or non high end computers 
<xnox> knome: pleia2: there a lot of work done with binary driver providers, but it's a relationship canonical is managing and those binary blobs are not released yet.
<lderan> i have some amd machine i can use, their a bit old to boot
<pleia2> alright, let's get this meteing back on track
<micahg-work> right, once we have a decision, we can blog about it
<pleia2> we can discuss mir later
<elfy> pleia2: agreed 
<knome> xnox, so what you are basically saying that, as we know, "it's not working" :)
<knome> agreed as well.
<knome> should we discuss about the deadline date?
<xnox> knome: what i am saying "it's actually being actively worked on"
<knome> or is everybody fine with august 22?
<xnox> to get the binary blobs written & working.
<knome> xnox, yes, prefixed with "it's not working, but"
<pleia2> knome: I think we're all good with that
<knome> xnox, sorry, i'm not trying to be annoying. :)
<elfy> +1 to date 
<knome> xnox, i hear you, and i think it's great people are actually working on it and not just "planning" stuff
<knome> ok, that's it for the mir discussion1
<knome> ! too
<knome> #topic Items carried on
<knome> #subtopic Open action items from previous meeting 
<knome> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings#Xubuntu.2BAC8-Meetings.2BAC8-Archive.2BAC8-Minutes.2BAC8-2013-06-13.Action_items.2C_by_person
<xnox> knome: the binary blobs do work with mir on nexus devices, so existing ones can be made to work with it. (case in point tegra platform of nexus7 has nvidia binary blobs)
<knome> anything that's actually been done?
<skellat> knome: I can report on the bugs team topic
<xnox> knome: *some* binary drivers already work with mir ;-)
<pleia2> boo, slow wiki
<bluesabre_work> #info lightdm-gtk-greeter 1.6 is in the saucy repos
<knome> xnox, *some* people already understand we need to cut down our gasoline usage...
<lderan> loaded fast for once, scary stuff
<knome> xnox, sorry for the low blow... :P
<lderan> ba'dum tish
<knome> skellat, sure, go ahead
<pleia2> saw the new login screen when trying to test xmir last night, very nice :)
<knome> yes, that's an improvement
<bluesabre_work> it will look even nicer when the updated artwork hits
<pleia2> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings/Archive/Minutes/2013-06-13
 * pleia2 browses action items
<skellat> knome: Actually, on second thought, I'll defer both to next meeting since I'm still pondering XMir at this point
<knome> skellat, sure. :)
<knome> pleia2, didn't the link i pasted work for you?
<skellat> #action skellat to continue work on items from 2013-06-13 meeting
<meetingology> ACTION: skellat to continue work on items from 2013-06-13 meeting
<pleia2> knome: oh, I r teh blind
<bluesabre_work> #info we do not have an interface for setting a user profile image
<bluesabre_work> but I can throw together a simple lightweight one if desired
<knome> bluesabre_work, for good, or... ?
<Unit193> cp Pictures/myface.jpg .face  ?  :P
<xnox> knome: I hope I understand what that meant. It's all funny and playful, yet each cycle we land millions of new lines of code and make all of that work. With massive amounts of porting work.
<knome> bluesabre_work, if that's trivial enough to not keep you away from other things you are planning to deliver this cycle
<GridCube> i say that that would be nice
<bluesabre_work> Unit193: thats for advanced users ;)
<xnox> knome: to be honest, I am always scared of each X/kernel/gcc/libc upgrades, cause I find things broken.
<bluesabre_work> knome: I'm not worried about it tbh
<xnox> knome: but at the same time we work hard on making it work.
<knome> xnox, i understand your point. but for me, as a non-technical person, if it doesn't work, i don't care how close we are to "it works". it's a boolean ;)
<xnox> knome: and Mir is no different. using and testing it is the only way to prove when it's ready & usable.
<knome> bluesabre_work, in that case, yes, we would like you to do that
<xnox> knome: nothing gets a magical label "stable" and everyone starts using it, instead typically "everyone is on $foo" thenst it's ready.
<micahg-work> xnox, normal upstreams have a concept of "stable"
<bluesabre_work> #action bluesabre to create a basic user-profile-image app
<meetingology> ACTION: bluesabre to create a basic user-profile-image app
<knome> xnox, sure. again, i'm not trying to be annoying. i definitely understand your point and respect both the mir developers and your work :)
<xnox> knome: =)))))
<knome> anything else on the action items?
<pleia2> mine was done, now GridCube is well on his way with the desktop image submission team
<knome> (each person, can you #action any items again that's NOT done)
<pleia2> #info completed completed submission guidelines for desktop image submissions
<knome> #action knome sends email about adding other members to xubuntu-release 
<meetingology> ACTION: knome sends email about adding other members to xubuntu-release
<elfy> #action greeter testcase still to be done - waiting for artwork
<meetingology> ACTION: greeter testcase still to be done - waiting for artwork
<pleia2> too many words
<skellat> #action (11:47:17 AM) micahg-work: I would venture to say if it's not landed at least by Aug 15, that we defer to 14.04
<meetingology> ACTION: (11:47:17 AM) micahg-work: I would venture to say if it's not landed at least by Aug 15, that we defer to 14.04
<skellat> #undo
<xnox> knome: 13.10 will ship X server one will be able to boot, whether X or XMir or Mir is the _default_ is irrelevant politics. And that's the best non-technical promise one can have.
<elfy> #action elfy greeter testcase still to be done - waiting for artwork
<meetingology> ACTION: elfy greeter testcase still to be done - waiting for artwork
<micahg-work> #action micahg to ITP gtk-theme-config to Debian
<meetingology> ACTION: micahg to ITP gtk-theme-config to Debian
<knome> xnox, that's a good one.
<elfy> #action elfy talk to balloons re daily builds/cadence testing if necessary for us 
<meetingology> ACTION: elfy talk to balloons re daily builds/cadence testing if necessary for us
<skellat> #action skellat to prepare blog article discussing updating & upgrading for users and why it is okay to do so
<meetingology> ACTION: skellat to prepare blog article discussing updating & upgrading for users and why it is okay to do so
<bluesabre_work> xnox, knome: but what happens when a user installs xubuntu-desktop from an ubuntu-desktop installation?
<knome> bluesabre_work, that's something we should've asked jono, but i doubt he would have had an answer
<skellat> #action skellat to develop a proposal for consideration for more structured handling of Xubuntu bugs
<meetingology> ACTION: skellat to develop a proposal for consideration for more structured handling of Xubuntu bugs
<knome> (or anybody at this point tbh)
<micahg-work> bluesabre_work, that's fine, it'll just work
<knome> everybody happy with the action items?
<skellat> Has anybody gotten an update since we last met about the status of Xfce 4.12?
<micahg-work> the main issue will be if XMir supports the hardware we want to support for 13.10
<GridCube> Havent heard any
<xnox> bluesabre_work: a package xubuntu-desktop is installed =) that doesn't directly changes/installs X server or Mir. All images at the moment are build with X by default, thus one will still have X
<knome> the status of xfce 4.12 is "we understand xubuntu's point of view, but we want to unbreak some more things and there is no estimate when that's done"
<elfy> bluesabre_work: as far as the greeter is concerned - do we need to wait for the artwork? 
<skellat> knome: Please make that an INFO item
<xnox> bluesabre_work: the promise is that $flavour-desktop tasks are independs on X/XMir/Mir choice.
<knome> #info knome discussed xfce 4.12 release plans with nick, and the status is "we understand xubuntu's point of view, but we want to unbreak some more things and there is no estimate when that's done"
<bluesabre_work> elfy: the annoying thing is that any gtk3 menus in 13.10 right now will look bad (thanks to gtk 3.8)
<knome> skellat, thanks for reminding...
<bluesabre_work> fixed in the latest artwork stuff, yet to be uploaded from what I last heard
<lderan> oh dear
<micahg-work> bluesabre_work, is that a bug in our theme or gtk 3.8?
<knome> are we fine with the action items now?
<micahg-work> ah
<elfy> bluesabre_work: so leave it for the moment? 
<elfy> knome: I'm happy with mine 
<knome> #topic Team updates (All contributors)
<bluesabre_work> micahg-work, elfy: should be fine to test, just a theming change with gtk 3.8
<knome> any updates not yet covered on the action items?
<ochosi> bluesabre_work: wait, hasn't mrpouit uploaded a new version of shimmer-themes already?
<elfy> bluesabre_work: k - I'll get on tiwht the testcase and then we can look at asking for people to test it 
<bluesabre_work> ochosi: not sure, has he? :)
<mrpouit> yea, I did
<bluesabre_work> oh
<mrpouit> unless it's outdated already?
<bluesabre_work> well there ya go
<bluesabre_work> ready to test :D
<knome> #info mrpouit uploaded a new version of shimmer-themes to saucy
<ochosi> mrpouit: no, it's not outdated. but did you use the git-releases or snapshots?
<lderan> i've started to write autopilot tests for the settings window
<mrpouit> ochosi, latest tags
<skellat> #info skellat is running Xfce on Jessie on his BeagleBoard and comparing how such runs with Xfce in Xubuntu
<knome> who's jessie?
<knome> :P
<ochosi> mrpouit: and not all themes were gtk3.8 compatible yet at that point, now Orion, Greybird, Numix and Bluebird should be
<knome> lderan, #info please!
 * knome fills the cup with more coffee
<lderan> #info lderan has started to write autopilot tests starting with the settings window
<lderan> like that?
<elfy> #info elfy manual testcase call for help went out - plenty of response so far - we've got 18 left not claimed and I'd added 6 at the weekend
<knome> lderan, yes, thanks :)
<skellat> knome: Debian Testing
<lderan> woo
<skellat> #info skellat notes Jessie is Debian Testing
<knome> ah, right
<knome> :)
<knome> makes more sense now...
<knome> more updates?
<bluesabre_work> mrpouit, micahg-work: now that I have started doing packaging, what would be the roadmap for me to become an official "xubuntu-developer"?
<mrpouit> bluesabre, there are a few pending merges left (I have the list at home), you can take them if you want
<knome> bluesabre_work, can you go on with that after the meeting?
<bluesabre_work> knome: sure thing
<bluesabre_work> mrpouit: works for me
<knome> mrpouit, micahg-work: or do you think there's something that concerns the whole community?
<elfy> #info elfy would really like people to talk to him about anything that they think needs testing planned for 
<skellat> mrpouit micahg-work: I just ask if the apt-offline merge into the seed & the related bug could be disposed of eventually
<knome> #action team to talk with elfy if anything needs testing
<meetingology> ACTION: team to talk with elfy if anything needs testing
<knome> #nick team
<elfy> knome: that's better :p
<micahg-work> skellat, yeah, that's easy enough to do
<knome> #topic New and emerging items
<knome> #subtopic Members for Xubuntu release team
<knome> so,
<knome> atm me and elfy are members of the release team able to push buttons
<knome> i'd like one developer to join us
<knome> micahg-work, mrpouit, bluesabre_work: volunteers?
<mrpouit> skellat, yep, I guess they are lost in my mailbox somewhere ;>
<micahg-work> knome, I'm not "around" for releases anymore, so it's hard for me
<bluesabre_work> knome: sure, I can help
<knome> mrpouit, you happy with bluesabre_work taking that spot?
<bluesabre_work> give it to mrpouit if you don't want to wait on a learning curve :)
<knome> we all need to learn, it's got tools that didn't exist before :P
<pleia2> I think you can handle it
<knome> and it's anyway more on being around and understanding code
<bluesabre_work> so, the fun stuff
<knome> just for the sake of it...
<bluesabre_work> :D
<lderan> :D
<knome> #vote Sean (bluesabre) to be the "developer member" of xubuntu-release? +1 for yes, -1 for no
<meetingology> Please vote on: Sean (bluesabre) to be the "developer member" of xubuntu-release? +1 for yes, -1 for no
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<mrpouit> knome, yeah, I'm not sure to be around, but I can try too
<knome> team can vote.
<skellat> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from skellat
<knome> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from knome
<elfy> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from elfy
<lderan> well it will be a while before I can help with that i bet :P
<knome> mrpouit, i'm fine with four members :>
<pleia2> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from pleia2
<GridCube> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from GridCube
<ochosi> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from ochosi
<Unit193> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Unit193
<knome> lderan, probably a bit, yes
<bluesabre_work> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from bluesabre_work
<bluesabre_work> why not ;)
<knome> lderan, but you're on your way there!
<elfy> :)
<knome> bluesabre_work, hehe
<knome> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Sean (bluesabre) to be the "developer member" of xubuntu-release? +1 for yes, -1 for no
<meetingology> Votes for:8 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<knome> #vote Lionel (mrpouit) to be the "developer member" of xubuntu-release? +1 for yes, -1 for no
<meetingology> Please vote on: Lionel (mrpouit) to be the "developer member" of xubuntu-release? +1 for yes, -1 for no
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<elfy> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from elfy
<knome> team can vote.
<knome> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from knome
<bluesabre_work> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from bluesabre_work
<GridCube> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from GridCube
<Unit193> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Unit193
<skellat> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from skellat
<elfy> he didn't like that vote then :p
<bluesabre_work> lol
<pleia2> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from pleia2
<knome> anybody want to vote against? :P
<bluesabre_work> he didn't want to see the final results
<knome> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Lionel (mrpouit) to be the "developer member" of xubuntu-release? +1 for yes, -1 for no
<meetingology> Votes for:7 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<micahg-work> oh, hrm
<knome> that's enough of us..
<elfy> bluesabre_work: the other one is here still 
<knome> micahg-work, you can throw an unofficial +1 :P
<skellat> micahg-work: See: https://code.launchpad.net/~skellat/ubuntu-seeds/xubuntu.saucy-aptoffline-addition/+merge/165516 & https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xubuntu-meta/+bug/1183638
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1183638 in xubuntu-meta (Ubuntu) "apt-offline needs to be added to metapackage" [Undecided,New]
<knome> anyway, let's go fast forward (we need to end the meeting today)
<knome> #subtopic Proposal for more structured handling of Xubuntu bugs
<knome> #info postponed to next meeting
<knome> #subtopic Xubuntu desktop showcase group progress
<GridCube> ok.
<GridCube> #info  a group on dA http://xubuntu-showcase.deviantart.com/ still waiting for those who applied to join me to a walkthrough
<skellat> #INFO GridCube: Work on the wallpaper showcase its being done, we created a new site: http://xubuntu-showcase.deviantart.com/ we still need all the people who volunteer to join me on a walkthrough of the managing of the site
<knome> what's the status on the guidelines? :)
<GridCube> Once i have enough people in the loop pleia2 will broadcast the news to all social site we own
<GridCube> guidelines are ready
<knome> pleia2? confirming that?
<GridCube> you can read them in the group already
<bluesabre_work> I swung by there the other day, looking good GridCube
<lderan> aye that it is
<GridCube> im sorry tht my internet isnt cooperating this week to get things done faster
<pleia2> knome: yep
<knome> ok, great
<knome> #action pleia2 and GridCube prepare the social media broadcasting
<meetingology> ACTION: pleia2 and GridCube prepare the social media broadcasting
<knome> is that it for that subject?
<GridCube> guess so
<knome> ok, great
<knome> #subtopic Changing the text on the settings menu 
<GridCube> i do need the people to join me
<elfy> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xfce4-settings/+bug/1173767
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1173767 in xfce4-settings (Ubuntu) "Settings Manager description " [Undecided,Confirmed]
<elfy> is the bug for this topic
<lderan> GridCube: I can help out :) i even remembered my devart password :P
<knome> GridCube, since many of you aren't actively in IRC, i suppose it's better to cooperate that in the mailing list
<knome> what does people think?
<elfy> as long as it's in the -dev m/l I'm fine with that 
<GridCube> yes. Will make a good mail then
<knome> now that we integrated system settings in the settings manager, the description isn't accurate
<knome> elfy, sure.
<knome> GridCube, if you want feedback/improving round, post it to pad and ping people here
<GridCube> ok
<knome> GridCube, but no need to, can also post directly
<knome> (whatever you wish)
<GridCube> Will see how long it turns out to be. 
<knome> so what about the settings manager description?
<lderan> think it would be good to change the text, tho not sure to what
<knome> the current description is "Customize your desktop"
<lderan> also theres all the translations for it as well
<knome> i think we'd need somebody familiar with the code to tell if it's a patch we want to carry with xubuntu
<knome> that's my main issue
<knome> apart from that i'm all +1 for the change
<knome> elfy, can you work to confirm with mr_pouit (i suppose) if the patch is doable?
<bluesabre_work> if we carry the patch for that string, we'll have to hunt down translators as well
<elfy> knome: ok
<elfy> #action elfy talk to mr_pouit re Settings Manager
<meetingology> ACTION: elfy talk to mr_pouit re Settings Manager
<knome> bluesabre_work, that's probably the least of our worries... it's just one string, and we can shout the world to help us
<knome> great
<knome> #subtopic Schedule next meeting
<knome> any reasons we should have a meeting in one week?
<slickymaster> I can translate to Portuguese, if needed
<GridCube> in two weeks sound good?
<elfy> slickymaster: ty
<lderan> could it be a patch that I could do?
<bluesabre_work> jono said xmir should be in the archive in 2 weeks, right?
<knome> hmm, alpha 2 is in two weeks
<knome> let's have a meeting next week
<GridCube> Before that then?
<lderan> okay
<knome> a short one if nothing special turns up
<elfy> #info elfy include lderan with Settings discsussion
<bluesabre_work> sounds good to me
<elfy> knome: I'll be missing but forestpiskie will be here 
<knome> #info Next community meeting is on Thursday 18 July, 15UTC
<elfy> if it's the same time ish
<knome> #endmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Jul 11 16:29:49 2013 UTC.  
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2013/xubuntu-devel.2013-07-11-15.00.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2013/xubuntu-devel.2013-07-11-15.00.html
<knome> thanks!
<elfy> thanks knome 
<knome> elfy, yup
<lderan> ah good timing
<elfy> and everyone else
<lderan> bye all :)
<bluesabre_work> now, we just gotta add that to the gcal :)
<knome> gosh, i still talked more than jono
<knome> :P
<elfy> ha ha ha 
<knome> pleia2, ^
 * bluesabre_work is not surprised
<knome> hah, thanks :P
<bluesabre_work> :D
<knome> anyway, i'm off now
<elfy> cya later knome 
<bluesabre_work> seeya knome
<knome> will post the minutes online later today
<bluesabre_work> I'm off too, now I can focus on doing work while I'm at work :)
<pleia2> updated calendar
<knome> (and please do send the mailing list mail if you need to contact the team before the next meeting)
 * pleia2 back2work
<knome> pleia2, ta
<bluesabre_work> pleia2: +1
<knome> bluesabre_work, lol, have fun
<knome> -->
<elfy> vasa1 mikodo - good to see you :)
<elfy> as he left the channel ... 
<elfy> wb mikodo 
<mikodo> elfy wb?
<pleia2> welcome back
<mikodo> Thanks
<mikodo> I wanted to see if the meeting would still be logged
<elfy> mikodo: this is the place to ask questions if you've any about what's going on - but it is IRC 
<pleia2> mikodo: yep! see http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2013/xubuntu-devel.2013-07-11-15.00.html
<elfy> the meeting logs will be online shortly and as I said in your thread the ubuntu irc logs are there as well
<mikodo> pleia2, Thanks
<pleia2> how was I #3 talker
<pleia2> I didn't say that much :P
 * elfy was quiet this time 
<mikodo> Does anyone want to summarize the time-lines for Xmir or not
<mikodo> To use or not to use
<pleia2> we'll decide on august 22nd
<mikodo> OD
<mikodo> OK
<elfy> hello DanChapman 
<pleia2> that should give us 3 weeks of testing with it in the repos, and is 1 week before feature freeze
<elfy> mikodo: we're going to be trying to get some testing together - if you're interested I'mm ensure details of it are in your thread
<mikodo> You'll ensure?
<GridCube> he will make sure that
<elfy> make sure the details of any testing we are doing is mentioned in the thread 
<mikodo> elfy, probably not, sorry ... My wife is going in for Knee Replacement in a week. I will be too busy. but thanks.
<elfy> oh - hope that goes well mikodo 
<pleia2> best wishes, mikodo 
<mikodo> Thx
<Unit193> I had several lines in the meeting too!  Much more than 'team'.
<elfy> cya all later 
<pleia2> later elfy 
<pleia2> Unit193: I'd track down bluesabre later and get him to add his details to the etherpad, then send it off once you have yours added
 * pleia2 added a little intro text
<elfy> what is the etherpad link - assuming it's the mir one? 
<pleia2> http://etherpad.ubuntu.com/xubuntu-mir
<elfy> then I'm really away ... 
<pleia2> please, others with results can add too :)
<Unit193> Bleh, email...
<elfy> pleia2: give me a day or two to do that please - losing b/band tomorrow and I'll not be able to start till saturday - but will do all 3 machines
<pleia2> elfy: no problem
<pleia2> we might get the discussion started now though so they can get rolling on our bugs
<elfy> pleia2: I've added the ether pad link to a thread http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2160366&p=12727306&viewfull=1#post12727306
<pleia2> er, this is actually specifically for the email we're sending to jono
<pleia2> I'll note that in the etherpad
<elfy> so we don't want more results?
<pleia2> we do, just don't want it to become a be-all dumping ground for everything
<elfy> ok - maybe next meeting we can look at that then 
<elfy> and being admin I'd never admin abuse sticking threads on a forum anywhere
<pleia2> :)
<skellat> pleia2: Chipped in on etherpad
<Unit193> bluesabre: You're not on are you?
<mikodo> So, make the decision on Aug 22/13 for Xubuntu 13.04, to go with Xorg or Xmir (with X11 driver fall-back support). Either way to go with XMir in 14.04 LTS. I think if possible, 5 year support is warranted, (as, I understand it, after 14.04 plans are for Ubuntu to drop XMir and upstream Xfce has no plans to leave Xorg). So what for Xubuntu 14.10? I guess that is the 64 dollar question.
<mikodo> Xubuntu 13.10 decision on Aug 22/13 rather ...
<pleia2> hm
<pleia2> can't really say anything even about 14.04 until we know if it works
<ochosi> +1
<ochosi> let's not spread the same kind of panic like a year ago about wayland initially
 * pleia2 nods
<ochosi> (even if things arrive quicker in ubuntu)
<ochosi> anyway, we depend on xfce, so it's not in *our* hands really
<ochosi> i mean the possible 14.10 conundrum
<ochosi> (and anyway, i assume that xfce would rather go with wayland than with mir, if i had to guess personally)
<Unit193> Unity plans to move to Mir in 14.10 fully, I don't see them dropping XMir as there are still many "old" applications that won't work in Mir.
<ochosi> yeah, that's also true
<pleia2> I don't think they can ever drop XMir
<ochosi> well maybe in the mobile space
<pleia2> yeah, since that's all new apps
<ochosi> and since it's a much more locked-in system
<Unit193> And since XMir uses Xorg (indeed, is the X in XMir), I don't exactly see how they can "drop" xorg.
<knome> mikodo, xubuntu LTS support period is only 3 years though
<micahg-work> Unit193, X talking to hardware directly won't be supported
<micahg-work> most likely
<Unit193> Silly. :P
<micahg-work> Unit193, supported == Canonical looking at bugs, not that it won't work
<Unit193> Of course.
<skellat> Unit193: Be careful of the possibility of upstream Ubuntu doing something akin to Apple's System 9 to OSX jump where one era was left for another in terms of things actually working
<skellat> s/System 9/MacOS 9.0.4/
<pleia2> http://www.unixstickers.com/xubuntu
<pleia2> :)
<Unit193> pleia2: Heh, now it looks like I did all the work. :P
<Unit193> And nice!
<lderan> will have to get some of those stickers at somepoint :P
<knome> pleia2, not sure if i like blue on white or white on black
<Unit193> It gives options, I didn't think the black background was bad.
<knome> would be better if it was 80% black rather than 100%
<knome> or 90%
<knome> also white on blue logotype + logo is weird
<pleia2> I like them
<knome> boo
<pleia2> but we can only include your favorites in the bog post about them
<pleia2> hehe, bog
<pleia2> blog
<pleia2> bogs and swamps
<knome> i was thinking we could ask to remove those options:P
<pleia2> not so much, I assume they've printed them and put the collections together
<knome> awwh
<pleia2> I think they're fine
<knome> they're not awful, but a bit suboptimal
<Unit193> If people don't like them, they wont' get them.  It's another option.
<knome> will they send some of us for free?
<pleia2> knome: yep
<knome> awesome.
<pleia2> they'll send an initial batch to us, and then more based on sales
<pleia2> (instead of straight $$ sharing)
<knome> ooh
<knome> have you checked that's fine with canonical?
<pleia2> http://fridge.ubuntu.com/2013/07/11/ubuntu-developer-summit-27-29-august-2013/
<pleia2> I'm not worried about it
<pleia2> it's some stickers here and there, all used in promotion, not for personal/company gain
<knome> mhm
<Unit193> We going to take part?  Going to talk in a meeting and figure out the medium again, along with recording?
<knome> yeah
<skellat> knome: This needs action on your part to dispose of.  If I wanted to nitpick, it needs fixing but otherwise I'm cool with the merge.  I can talk to Jack Fromm about how to add himself to the changelog perhaps.
<skellat> knome: https://code.launchpad.net/~jjfrv8-gmail/xubuntu-docs/chapters_2-3_edits/+merge/173120
<skellat> pleia2: Xubuntu at vUDS-1308 -- Us explaining the outcome of the go/no-go meeting the week before...whatever that outcome may be
 * skellat gets ready to head off to the arts board meeting
<lderan> sounds fun :)
<knome> head off?
<knome> ouch
<Unit193> knome: Actually, your link is off.  If you look at it it still has "raring" in the link, you should be linking to http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-s/xubuntu-team.html
<knome> hmpf.
<Unit193> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/client-1310-mir-xmir indicates that xrandr support is in TODO, and intel SNA support isn't due until way late.
<knome> that's not perfect, since it shows non-xubuntu related tasks as well
<knome> the point is the correct page doesn't exist.
<Unit193> Though I don't see why it has non-Xubuntu..
<knome> because it gets all people in xubuntu-team and lists all their work items
<knome> not work items that are assigned under the xubuntu blueprints
<knome> i've updated the page for now with the xubuntu-team group page though.
<knome> Unit193, does that ^ make sense?
<Unit193> Dowh.  Well, it at least lists them.  Yes, it makes sense, but at the same time it doesn't. ;)
<Unit193> In the one, you did contact Nick so technically that can be inprogress or done.
<Unit193> (I'm looking to see what we've got to do yet, of course.)
<knome> a lot.
<Unit193> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/xubuntu-s-development CTRL+ALT+T was added, saw the commit.  Good to set as "DONE"?
<knome> sure.
<knome> while you're at it, you can mark the "ask xfce" inprogress
<Unit193> And elfy sent the call for testcase writers as well.
<knome> yup!
<Unit193> Done.  Did ochos decide about pavucontrol and the GTK3 panel?
<Unit193> Be back in a while.
<knome> mmh, no
<Noskcaj> Should i add myself to the qa spec for testcase writing, i've had to approve/edit all of them?
<knome> Noskcaj, the bugs are tracked one by one, so no need to add another work item
<Noskcaj> ok
<shawnb> hey all I'm trying to join the Xubuntu community for documentation, I've been emailing the mailing list regarding this
<Noskcaj10> hello shawnb 
<knome> hey shawnb :)
<shawnb> hi
<knome> <- pasi
<Noskcaj10> <- Jackson
<knome> skellat, did my explanation make any sense?
<shawnb> oh ok; I've seen the alias knome on a few things on the Ubuntu wikis, got it now; normally I use my psuedonym but I just did my name for the community irc
<knome> yup, you'll get to know our nicks quite quickly
<shawnb> well I am very interested in helping the Xubuntu community; so that's my main goal
<knome> goodie!
<knome> welcome :)
<shawnb> thank you =D
<knome> so, our docs...
<knome> they live at https://launchpad.net/xubuntu-docs
<shawnb> ok, and they use docbook xml
<knome> yup!
<knome> would you be more interested in extending or working with the 12.04 docs review?
<knome> and are you already familiar with docbook?
<knome> and/or bzr?
<knome> (you've probably told this already but my brain refuses to keep too much information)
<Noskcaj10> Learn bzr as soon as possible, it's confusing to start with, but it works
<shawnb> I would be interested in that; I'm not familiar with docbook or bzr, but can learn quick
<knome> ok, so have you any experience with anything xml, or possibly html?
<shawnb> it's all good; yeah bzr I've attempted to use in the past but didn't try it that much
<knome> (it's ok if not!)
#xubuntu-devel 2013-07-12
<shawnb> yes, I have made my own XML markup for a few apps I made - was going to use it as the way to organize my music library in a music app I want to create
<knome> docbook definitely is something you can get a grasp in just hours
<shawnb> html - I play with jquery a lot as of lately
<knome> great - then you basically know docbook apart from the tags... but that's fine, because we have examples in the documentation ready!
<shawnb> awesome! =D
<knome> would you like to dig in some of that now, or would some other time suit you better?
<shawnb> another time would probably be better; I'm reading through the Xubuntu documentation and have had a couple of exams for work I took today
<knome> sure :)
<knome> when you have time for that, just join this channel again and shout for people to help you with things
<knome> both me and pleia2 can give you a better look at the docs at least, and most of us are familiar enough with bzr to get you started with that
<shawnb> that's good to know; I'm reading through the offline documentation  seeing how fluid it is - I've done call center where I've worked with the most basic of people and I'm wondering what area you want to target in the documentation areas
<knome> as i said, we recently (for 12.10) did a complete rewrite
<knome> and by complete i mean... we pretty much touched almost everything
<knome> so what we have should be valid, but due to the same reason, it can definitely be lacking
<shawnb> in the 13.04 I'm reading on chapter 3, it talks about the desktop have two panels top visible and bottom hidden when not in use. I personally can see a notation that states how to access the bottom panel just in case
<shawnb> just in the top clip note
<knome> i'm not sure i follow
<knome> right; so you're proposing to add an information box?
<shawnb> it is clarified how to access it in the heading Bottom Panel but under the main heading Desktop it just mentions it - I would personally
<knome> sure
<knome> improvements like that are most welcome
<shawnb> symlink has no definition in the  information box on the page; it just says you can symlink your backgrounds to /usr/share/xfce4/backdrops/ - better information on how to do that would be more helpful
<knome> (as long as we don't start saying all things twice...)
<knome> yep, some of the things are definitely rough
<knome> correct, but rough and lacking
<knome> otoh we might consider if we want to talk about "symlinking" in our end-user docs anyway
<shawnb> I'll be honest I"ve used Ubuntu and Xubuntu and variants since 4.10 came out, but I'm learning new things in this documentation as well
<knome> it's endless - one learns new things every day
<shawnb> yeah that's a bit more advanced; if a program were made to do it for you (I had one I made for that specific issue haha) users would be more inclined to use it
<knome> yup
<shawnb> or even a program to upload backgrounds to the Xubuntu system for access to all users
<knome> so probably just -"or symlink" there
 * Unit193 uses his name on IRC, mailing list, and LP.
<knome> Unit193, you're cheating.
<Unit193> Am I?
<knome> yes you are sir.
<bluesabre> stickers!
 * knome sticks one in bluesabres nose
<bluesabre> lol
<bluesabre> took forever to go through all the backlog
<knome> sure
<bluesabre> Unit193: I am around now, but my crash was identical to the one that pleia2 had pasted yesterday
<Unit193> bluesabre: Yeah, I was looking for what card you had at the time.
<bluesabre> Unit193: NVIDIA Corporation G98M [Quadro NVS 160M] (rev a1)
<Unit193> bluesabre: Coolio, already sent to the list, but could add it to the etherpad if it'll come in handy later.
<bluesabre> added
<bluesabre> thanks Unit193
<Unit193> Heh, I was going to, but cool.
<Unit193> Thanks.
<ochosi> bluesabre: holy moly, gtk3.10 will deprecate stock items. one more thing to keep in mind when porting something...
<ochosi> (in case anyone is interested in the not-too technical read: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1KCVPoYQBqMbDP11tHPpjW6uaEHrvLUmcDPqKAppCY8o/pub )
<skellat> knome: Sorry, just saw that 3 hours later.  The music festival board meeting that I was clerking tonight got interesting and I had to track down a band leader for us to talk to on speakerphone.  Your status.u.c explanation seems sensible to me.
<bluesabre> ochosi: yep, that sucks
<bluesabre> and that means the standard is moving towards text-only buttons (though they can be packed however one chooses)
<Unit193> Well, Gnome wasn't using it, so who cares. :P
<micahg> skellat: where was that link?
<ochosi> bluesabre: yeah, i guess less icons to maintain for me ;)
<elfy> hello mikodo 
<mikodo> elfy, Have a good sleep?
<elfy> I did thanks :)
<mikodo> elfy, I am just going off to it myself. Thanks for the meeting tip again, I enjoyed it. It was a little hard to keep up, the re-read on the UF made it all clearer
<elfy> irc can be if you're not used to it 
<elfy> if you subscribe to the xub-dev m/l or even check the wiki you can see when there is a meeting and check later for the logs
<mikodo> Kinda scares me where Xubuntu will be having to go to with Mir looming for 14.04. I get that talking about it here is not optimum.
<elfy> we 'chat' in #xubuntu-offtopic - not logged there
<elfy> you should pop by some time :)
<mikodo> Oh, OK! Thx. an G'nite.
<elfy> mr_pouit: hi - when you've got a few free minutes can you ping me please :)
<mrpouit> elfy, ping
<mrpouit> hello there
<knome> LP merge 173120 done.
<knome> meeting minutes from yesterday are up at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings
<ochosi> ah cool
<jjfrv8> knome, thanks for the merge. Re skellat's point, should I be updating the changelog when I do these proposals?
<skellat> jjfrv8: Running dch -a before you commit then merge will add you easily to the changelog
<knome> jjfrv8, if you're comfortable with it, go ahead; if not, i'll make sure i do that
<knome> (done that with my push)
<jjfrv8> That's a "devscripts" app that I have to install and then run that command before I do my local commit?
<knome> yup, running that before your commit would do it
<jjfrv8> OK, I'll try that next time.
<knome> thanks :)
<jjfrv8> knome, will the 12.04 rewrite project have a formal kickoff.  There is no trunk for that yet, true?
<knome> yes, we will have to send some kind of call for that, and probably create a new branch
<jjfrv8> Alrighty
<knome> jjfrv8, if you would like to get hands dirty with that already, i should talk with pleia2 today and get that done
<jjfrv8> I'm working on the testcases right now but I just didn't want to miss out on the action with 12.04 :)
<knome> sure
<knome> if i'll get ahold of pleia2 today, i can go ahead with the 12.04 SRU stuff
<knome> (note how awesome i am in highlighting pleia2 again and again so she can't say she missed my messages?)
<bluesabre> pleia2 ^
<knome> bluesabre, why are you ^ing pleia2?
<bluesabre> to help make sure she doesn't miss your messages :D
<knome> bluesabre, oh pleia2?
<bluesabre> yeah, pleia2
<knome> right, that's why you were ^ing pleia2 
<rowboatnick> lol
<bluesabre> yup, thats the reason I was ^ing pleia2
<knome> bluesabre, good, i hope pleia2 doesn't miss that
<bluesabre> I don't think pleia2 will
<knome> yeah, pleia2 usually doesn't miss stuff like that
<bluesabre> indeed, pleia2 is usually pretty reliable about getting messages left for her
<knome> that might be one of the reasons her nick is pleia2, maybe the first version had worse reliability
<bluesabre> lol
<pleia2> you all suck :)
 * elfy has a sad :(
<pleia2> elfy: just kidding, only knome and bluesabre 
<elfy> :p
<pleia2> knome: so the plan with 12.04 is to only review the docs for accuracy (not backport the entire 12.10 rewrite), I can put out the call to do that any time
<elfy> bet you can't do it last week ... 
<pleia2> elfy: changed my mind, you suck too
<pleia2> :P
<elfy> :D
<knome> pleia2, uhm, wait...
<knome> pleia2, we do want the new looks, don't we?
<pleia2> knome: isn't that just css changes or something?
<knome> there was a bunch of other changes and cleanup with the new docs too
<knome> so tbh, i would rather go the backportish way...
<knome> (we can merge the appropriate, deleted-for-12.10 stuff back in)
<pleia2> ah, wow, ok
<knome> if you want, i can do a diff on the two branches
<pleia2> I think the diff will be unusable
<pleia2> it's too rewritten
<knome> lol
<knome> i was thinking to see the changes outside the actual content files
<pleia2> ah ok
<pleia2> we should probably help the doc writers out a bit by remembering what changed between 12.04 and 12.10
<pleia2> 12.10 is when we dropped gimp and gnumeric, so we'll want people to add those pack (referencing 13.04 for that could do)
<knome> well that's the first task
<pleia2> s/pack/back
<pleia2> what else?
<knome> depends which way we want to go
<knome> i would say the new docs are much much better in fluency and all other literal stuff too
<knome> it would be silly to use the old docs that tell the same things worse
<jjfrv8> Lot's of stuff moved from System to Settings Manager
<knome> that's a relatively easy change
<knome> just edit the entities file
<pleia2> I think we pretty much ignore the current 12.04 docs
<pleia2> just tell them to look at 12.10 and remove/add as needed
<knome> so, should either
<pleia2> the 12.04 docs aren't accurate either, so not so useful
<knome> 1) just overwrite the precise branch (which actually doesn't exist); or
<knome> 2) create a new branch and work with that until it's ready and then merge with the 12.04 branch?
 * pleia2 vote #1
<knome> the problem is that it doesn't exist
<knome> we've build the precise docs off the natty branch
<knome> so what if i just created the precise branch and then we'd just go ahead and leave that as the precise branch, and not touch the natty (precise) branch?
<pleia2> yeah
<knome> would be easier to diff/look at the differences, since you can just pull two branches and their trunk/main state is what you work with
<knome> ok, now i need to remind myself how to create a new branch
<pleia2> :)
<knome> does it make much sense if i base off the 12.04 docs from current or 12.10?
<jjfrv8> I would think from 12.10 because, as you said, the whole style changed
<knome> 12.10 already has the new style
<jjfrv8> That's what I mean.  We would use that style for 12.04
<knome> so what i'm wondering if there were more changes that made it more unlike 12.04, or if most of the changes between 12.10->now were mostly grammar fixes
<knome> because i can't think of *too* many things we've documented change from 12.10
<jjfrv8> Yeah, I think it's mostly menu locations and titles
<knome> ok, then i'll just rebase from now
<knome> which is what i actually did already :P
<knome> so,
<knome> https://launchpad.net/xubuntu-docs/precise
<knome> there we go
<knome> pleia2, our website says "Janary" @ help/
<knome> i'll go fix that and drop oneiric and lucid from the supported releases
<pleia2> sometimes I make up months
<knome> it might have well been me that did that :P
<pleia2> you too!
<knome> weren't you away on raring release time?
<pleia2> yeah, honeymoon
<knome> exactly
<knome> can't make months up on honeymoon
<knome> https://launchpad.net/xubuntu-docs
<knome> isn't the series view wonderful?
<knome> only four branches to maintain!
<pleia2> it looks like we have our act together!
<knome> yup, looks
<knome> pleia2, bzr branch lp:xubuntu-docs/natty-oneiric xubuntu-docs-precise
<knome> um, no
<knome> fsst
<knome> idiocy warning!
<knome> pleia2, bzr branch lp:xubuntu-docs/precise
<knome> pleia2, bzr branch lp:xubuntu-docs/precise xubuntu-docs-precise
<knome> ^ that one
<jjfrv8> Gotta go. Will read the logs tonight for updates.
<knome> jjfrv8, we'll send an email with important information. have fun!
<jjfrv8> thx
<pleia2> knome: the last one?
<knome> oh wait
<knome> crap.
<knome> to get the old precise docs:
<knome> bzr branch lp:xubuntu-docs/natty-oneiric xubuntu-docs-precise-old
<knome> to get the new precise docs:
<knome> bzr branch lp:xubuntu-docs/precise xubuntu-docs-precise
<knome> somebody more wise with packaging could tell us what we need to do with the changelog, btw...
<pleia2> since we're doing an SRU, changelog with dates from the quantal cycle is ok
<pleia2> s/is/are
<pleia2> ENGLISH
<knome> haha
<knome> ok, i'll let you handle that
<pleia2> it's still early
<pleia2> ok
<knome> i just pushed the initial commit to make the docs say 12.04
<pleia2> \o/
<pleia2> shall I draft a mail to the list?
 * pleia2 openetherpad
<knome> yes please
<knome> and paste the link so i can mess up
<knome> :P
<pleia2> http://etherpad.ubuntu.com/AOSmBvQEgu
<knome> pleia2, i think the mail is pretty good.
<pleia2> ok, I'll send it out
<elfy> looks ok - just got it :)
<knome> ok, i'm off for now
<knome> will be back later today
<Noskcaj> elfy, does the XFCE4 Window Manager test really need to have the lines "    <dt>Open Window Manager from Settings dialogue</dt>        <dd>Window Manager opens to Style tab, theme set to default</dd>"  in twice?
<Noskcaj> dammit elfy
<Unit193> knome: http://paste.openstack.org/show/RkLw3EeQkVMhytGBflcv is a mock-up for the additional drivers tag, would look like: https://www.dropbox.com/s/leben28fa8ovgms/control.png (May need some changes, of course.)
<pleia2> Noskcaj: that tone really isn't necessary here
<Noskcaj> pleia2, ok, it was a joke
<pleia2> Noskcaj: noted, but we have a lot of new folks coming through here lately, we don't want to think that's how we interact with each other :)
<Noskcaj> ok
<knome> Unit193: i'm most open for that patch
<knome> wondering if we can snatch up a list of translations from some old jockey .desktop file
<Unit193> knome: I whiped it up to confuse bluesabre real quick, sooo. :P
<knome> i see, i see (well done)
<bluesabre> haha
<bluesabre> confused I was
<Unit193> Oh, and next meeting isn't on the Fridge calendar, if you wanted it there...
<knome> pleia2, 
<pleia2> knome
<knome> <3
<knome> would you update our calendars
<pleia2> I updated ours, but not fridge
<pleia2> I didn't know we were doing that, since we don't meet in -meeting
<knome> i know the process isn't too painful, but it should be easier. :)
<pleia2> the fridge meeting calendar is typically for scheduling time in #ubuntu-meeting
<knome> right, i was thinking we didn't do fridge before
<knome> do you think we should, or not?
<pleia2> I don't think s
<pleia2> o
<knome> oki
<knome> Unit193, ffuuu
<Unit193> :3
<Unit193> I've known other teams to do it, but not making anything out of nothing. :P   We don't link to our calendar, do we?
<knome> not too much at least
<pleia2> knome: now now
<knome> wot?
<pleia2> I was going to link it to our meetings page, but then I forgot or went to eat cookies or something
<knome> mmm... cookies...
 * skellat remains unsure of what to make of this
<pleia2> Unit193: other teams do it, then people look at the fridge and think they can't schedule their meeting, so then they complain to pleia2 that the need a -meeting-alt and then I have to open everything up on the calendar and say "no wait, don't worry, that meeting isn't in -meeting!"
<pleia2> it's annoying and means I have more work :)
<knome> lol
<skellat> So pleia2 has spoken, so shall it be?
<pleia2> I've been slowly weaning people off doing that
<knome> it shouldn't be called the fridge calendar then, it should be called the #ubuntu-meeting calendar
<pleia2> "This is the official Fridge Calendar. It is used for #ubuntu-meeting"
<Unit193> pleia2: Sure, and I understand the annoyance, but that should be their problem (yes, I know it's not.  I'll shutup. :P )
<knome> the term fridge calendar is possibly misleading to people who have a short attention span.
<pleia2> I don't even know what "fridge calendar" means
<knome> wait, what were we talking about?
<Unit193> I don't remember...
<pleia2> http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars/fridge/
<Unit193> pleia2: Fridge, it's where all the information goes.
<knome> i suppose it's supposed to be an analogy of a calendar in your fridge that allows everybody in the household see shared/important events
<pleia2> maybe in the 1950s
<knome> *to see
<pleia2> :)
<knome> we have one!
<pleia2> I think an old person made fridge
<knome> well, not in the fridge, but... you know
<pleia2> that's because your polar bear can't use a computer
<knome> or on the fridge door. :P
<pleia2> still needs to know what's what
<knome> are you calling my wife a polar bear?
<knome> hmm...
<skellat> I have a blotter calendar hanging on a nail via a yarn triangle
<pleia2> knome: no, the pet one you keep in the igloo
<knome> my wife marks her work shifts on the calendar. easy to check if you need the information and don't have devices at your hand
<knome> and no syncing worries
<knome> it's just there
<knome> pleia2, ;)
<drc> the joys of the analog revolution
<knome> definitely
<Unit193> So we going to have one of those creepy faces on the internet things?
<knome> yummy blueberry pie
<knome> analog pie wins digital pie
<drc> pie wins...period
<drc> time to fill the pie-hole.
<knome> ok, i'm off for today. more action tomorrow
<knome> good night!
<pleia2> night knome 
<Unit193> Am I supposed to bump anyone/thing about that desktop file? ;P
<ochosi> Unit193: you could file a bugreport
#xubuntu-devel 2013-07-13
<amjjawad> pleia2: Hi, you there?
<GridCube> knome, do you have the icon for deviantART so i can update it?
<GridCube> lderan, you said you could help, want me to send you an invitation to join as administrator?
<lderan> sure :)
<GridCube> whats your dA username?
<lderan> lderan
<GridCube> sounds appropriated 
<GridCube> :) hi amerigena 
<amerigena> howdy
<amerigena> so what's going on with the screenshot gallery?
<GridCube> :) i've resent you the intivation to be an admin on deviant art
<GridCube> can you please log in and accept the invitation
<GridCube> lderan, you too
<amerigena> OK.
<amerigena> One minute.
<GridCube> and if pleia2 its around her too.
<lderan> done
<knome> GridCube, i'll finish it at latest tomorrow.
<GridCube> 'kay
<GridCube> :) great lderan 
<amerigena> Done.
<GridCube> :D great
<GridCube> ok so now you will see that if i submit an image to my gallery and propose it for xubuntu-showcase you will recieve a message in dA
<amerigena> Cool.
<knome> amjjawad, what's up?
<amjjawad> knome: Hey :)
<amjjawad> I'm fine what about you
<knome> i'm fine. did you have a question for pleia2? just go ahead and ask, and she'll answer when she gets back, or others can answer before that
<GridCube> ok i've sent the image, it should be in your message boards amerigena, lderan 
<amerigena> Yep. Just saw it.
<lderan> test submit to xubunutu-showcase please disregard
<amjjawad> knome: not really, just a follow up on my email that I thought to discuss over there 
<amjjawad> knome: but that is okay, I got the point now, thanks :)
<GridCube> yes, you will see it needs 3 votes to pass to the xubuntu-showcase gallery
<amerigena> So basically all we have to do is keep an eye on our DA accounts and look for submitted content?
<amerigena> Got it.
<GridCube> yes, but do please open the image and try to find under wich licence it was submitted
<lderan> sure thing
<amerigena> OK.
<GridCube> you will see it at the bottom
<GridCube> its under cc v3
<GridCube> so it means the submitter chosed that licence, if thats not there it shouldnt be accepted, per the rules we stated previously
<GridCube> now accept the submition
<GridCube> submission
<lderan> done
<GridCube> amerigena, :) please if you accept now it will automatically send the image to our galleries
<GridCube> notice that i sent the submission directly to featured, we can change that to proposed, and make submission to featured unavailable, and then move manually the ones we find particularly good to the featured gallery, we can also organize the images in folders by month and year and stuffs like that
<GridCube> once amerigena accepts it ill show you how to move them around in the galleries
<amerigena> Trying. Where do I accept? I'm looking.
<GridCube> amerigena, :) in your message are, at the side, there is an orange house with the #xubuntu-showcase words alongside it
<GridCube> clic on it to see all the messages from xubuntu-showcase, tehre you should see the accept button
<amerigena> OK. Got it. Looking in the wrong area. Accepted.
<GridCube> :) excellent
<GridCube> now if you go to the top you will see your deviantart name has a down arrow near it, if you hover it you will see the groups you are joined
<GridCube> click in xubuntu-showcase
<GridCube> you will go to http://xubuntu-showcase.deviantart.com/
<GridCube> now clic on the gallery tab
<amerigena> Seen.
<GridCube> ok so if you hover an image you should see a pencil icon poping out
<amerigena> Edit?
<amjjawad> knome: I'm sorry by the way if I'm asking too much but things in Xubuntu is completely different than Lubuntu and I need to get used to it :)
<GridCube> if you clic that pencil you will see a few options, please move my submission to the folder named 2013 - July
<knome> amjjawad, no problem
<GridCube> amerigena, i would guess its edit, yes
<amjjawad> knome: thanks a lot :)
<knome> amjjawad, that's one of the reasons why "experienced" users aren't given any different treatment than totally new contributors though
<amjjawad> knome: yes, I'm starting to figure that out :)
<Unit193> And that's the thing to keep in mind, Lubuntu and Xubuntu have the same core, but they aren't the same.
<amjjawad> we used to do the opposite on Lubuntu. Anyone, can join and called official member 
<amjjawad> Unit193: yes, from the emails that I'm reading so far, I came to find out they are totally different when it comes to the way each community runs itself :)
<amjjawad> This will increase my experiences and skills. I like that :)
<GridCube> knome, :) i've made this user http://xubmits.deviantart.com/
<knome> GridCube, have you checked what the deviantart terms say about shared accounts?
<knome> GridCube, i would think those are forbidden, since with those you can spam and abuse the system
<amerigena> Done.
<GridCube> not really, they where pretty much used a whole lot before the groups where invented
<knome> GridCube, and remember, we don't *have* to get all the submissions through dA
<GridCube> no no, thats the idea, the submissions not on dA can be uploaded there so we have them centered on one place we can easily manage
<GridCube> ok perfect amerigena :) 
<GridCube> lderan, can you move the submission to proposed?
<GridCube> amerigena, if you see in the xubuntu-showcase page you can go to the about-us page and add some information about you :3
<knome> GridCube, i would say those can be uploaded to dA by users who have dA accounts
<lderan> done :D
<knome> the TOS doesn't explicitly say that's forbidden, but i'm sure they'd tell you you can't do it if you asked
<GridCube> knome, :) yes, but if we get some trhough email or twitter, we can hub them to the group
<GridCube> knome, not really
<knome> GridCube, don't we have multiple moderators with dA accounts to do that?
<knome> i'm failing to see why we need an additional account
<knome> the moderators are committed to working with dA and moderating the images because they are on dA and care about it
<knome> others aren't, so why should they take extra effort to upload things there?
<GridCube> knome, well yes
<GridCube> P: didnt though of that
<GridCube> you are right
<GridCube> i will leave it there just in case
<knome> re: upload to featured/proposed, feel free to do whatever makes sense in dA
<knome> though you might want to use the featured gallery to pick things you want to send to the website gallery next
<GridCube> it should go first to proposed and then moved to featured the exceptional ones
<GridCube> yes that
<GridCube> will make so proposed its the only one that people can send 
<knome> oki
<knome> and thanks for going through the submission/moderation stuff with other moderators
<amerigena> GridCube : done
<GridCube> lderan, :) you can add something too to the about us tab
<GridCube> amerigena, now you can delete the submission from the folders?
<GridCube> if you do that i think all the stuffs we need to know to manage the page will be covered
<GridCube> ok :) now its food time
<GridCube> see you later if you have any more questions
<lderan> okay :)
<knome> bon appetit
<jjfrv8> knome, I pushed a 12.04  docs revision to my branch last night but had trouble with permissions. I mentioned that in the comments.
<knome> ok, i'll look at that
<knome> did you do a merge request or just pushed?
<jjfrv8> I did a merge request after I revised the push
<knome> okay
<jjfrv8> it wouldn't let me push it to ...xubuntu-docs/precise, I had to send it to ...xubuntu-docs that then specify "other" in the merge request target.
<amerigena> GridCube : thought that I'd moved it to July 2013. It was back in Proposed. I removed it.
<knome> jjfrv8, weird one. maybe you just need to have a different branch name than "precise"
<amerigena> Adios. Will keep an eye on the DA gallery.
<amerigena> Thanks for the info. Much appreciated.
<knome> jjfrv8, or actually... maybe you should have pushed to lp:~jjfrv8/xubuntu-
<knome> err...
<knome> jjfrv8, lp:~jjfrv8/xubuntu-docs/precise/branchname
<jjfrv8> That's what I did.
<knome> didn't you say you tried to push to .../precise ?
<jjfrv8> Well, I omitted the last part, I did append my branchname
<knome> oki
<knome> then that's just weird.
<knome> i can look at that later today
<jjfrv8> Thanks.
<knome> also the merge proposal
<jjfrv8> I think the merge proposal went to the right place but let me know if not.
<knome> it looks like that, sure
<ochosi> micahg: reminder: gtk-theme-config > debian! :)
<knome> pleia2, you around?
<knome> or anyone with debian packaging skills ;)
<Unit193> "Skills" I don't have, but what's up?
<knome> 12.04 docs SRU
<knome> re: changelog
<knome> what's the correct way to add the SRU version into changelog?
<knome> eg. does the SRU version need to be bigger than any other released version?
<knome> in our case, stupidly 13.10-precise0.12.04.3 or sth
<knome> or does it just need to be bigger than what the current release in precise is?
<knome> in that case, 12.04.3
<Unit193> Bah, really?  Oh well.  Typcially they do 13.10really12.04.3 or something like that.
<knome> i mean anyway, does it have to be bigger than anything that's been released in between
<knome> or not
<knome> eg. just bigger than what's released in 12.04
<Unit193> Just bigger than the last version in 12.04.
<knome> you sure?
<knome> if that's true, should i go and poke the changelog and insert a release in between the ones that are there currently?
<knome> (we don't seem to have *any* release that starts with 12.04...)
<Unit193> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xubuntu-docs
<knome> yup, it says 11.10.0 ;)
<Unit193> It was copied forward, not even changed for the title was it?
<knome> i've no idea.
<knome> probably not...
<knome> well done us!
<knome>      
<knome> Changelog
<knome> xubuntu-docs (11.10.0) oneiric; urgency=low
<knome>   * desktop-guide/libs/global.ent, startpage/xubuntu-index.html: updated
<knome>     for oneiric.
<knome>  -- Lionel Le Folgoc <mrpouit@ubuntu.com>   Mon, 26 Sep 2011 20:55:11 +0200
<knome> yep!
<knome> copied from oneiric which was copied from natty
<knome> yay
<Unit193> Does it make sense to anyone else to map Ctrl+Esc xfce4-popup-applicationsmenu rather than the slower xfdesktop --menu ?
<knome> probably, but since i'm not using that myself...
<Unit193> I remap it myself.
<knome> then file a bug and send a patch or sth.
<knome> :)
<Unit193> (Yes, I know that I may not be normal user.) Well, I was more asking for feedback, I could easily do a patch, and fairly easily do a merge.
<knome> actually, there's a possible bug related to this
<knome> in settings manager -> desktop -> tab menus, uncheck "show applications menu..." and neither of the commands pop up a menu
<Unit193> xfce4-popup-applicationsmenu is still good mapped to Ctrl+Esc with that.
<knome> how is it good if that setting makes the shortcut not work?
<Unit193> If you disable that setting, my keybind still works, not sure about default.
<Unit193> Default does as well, but of course you can't bring up the application menu.
<knome> but xfce4-popup-applicationsmenu odesn't work for me if i disable that...
<knome> so wouldn't that mean it wouldn't work with the keybind either? ;)
<Unit193> Works for meâ¢
<knome> that's known to have regressions :P
<Unit193> Are you on Raring?
<knome> ~$ lsb_release -a
<knome> Description:	Ubuntu 13.04
#xubuntu-devel 2013-07-14
<shawnb> So I'm bazaar branching the documentation of natty and precise; I'm going to be asking a few questions but I'll look through these documents first
<Unit193> Natty?
<knome> shawnb, don't be fooled by the command saying natty. it's called that because the precise docs are essentially natty docs with s/11.04/12.04/
<knome> (11.10 actually, so we failed even that)
<shawnb> yeah oneiric; I was going through the mailing list information today; so was 12.04's documentation updated at all? or is it just missing a few items?
<shawnb> got it knome
<knome> the branch we're working with now is copied from 13.10
<knome> the -old branch is basically what was the documentation for 11.04
<knome> that's purely for reference
<shawnb> so we're trying to do 12.04.2's right? we're not working on 13.10s
<knome> yes, we're trying to get the "precise" branch to match the situation in 12.04.2
<knome> but we've taken the 13.10 docs branch, because that's much better than the old docs
<shawnb> makes sense
<shawnb> I'm reading through the new documentation (I compiled it to read through it easier); and I was wondering if we could do apt links for software we reference to automatically install things for the user like omgubuntu does
<knome> that would be something for the development (13.10) branch, and we'd have to see how we can handle apt:-links automatically
<knome> i don't think we're doing that currently by default
<shawnb> apt://minitube-ubuntu - that's how omgubuntu does it off their site
<knome> shawnb, that opens a "choose an application" window, and there isn't any applications that are handling those links
<shawnb> odd I use chrome and it prompts me to run xdg-open
<knome> right, that works
<Unit193> Do you have apturl-gtk?
<knome> firefox didn't propose that, but running 'xdg-open apt://appname' worked
<shawnb> mine prompted to open ubuntu software centre - uh.. not sure lemme check
<Unit193> Task: ubuntu-desktop, ubuntu-usb, edubuntu-desktop, edubuntu-usb, lubuntu-desktop, ubuntu-gnome-desktop
<shawnb> no apturl isn't
<knome> Unit193, i've a pretty default installation, and i've definitely installed anything that would open apt://-links, so there needs to be some magic
<Unit193> apturl-common is installed, but doesn't help me, maybe USC is required?
<shawnb> probably USC
<shawnb> I'm torrenting a xubuntu 12.04.2 iso I can check and see if it works in that
<shawnb> I can confirm in a default install of Xubuntu 12.04.2 it does prompt to launch Ubuntu Software Center when clicking on apt links
<Unit193> Well alright.
<knome> i mean, gweh
<knome> sure, we could do that
<knome> but rather than using our limited time on that, let's focus on other things which need reworking
<knome> if we end up having time, sure, we can do that as well
<knome> i would say we would need to test the apt://-links though.
<knome> and that's the reason why i'm not sure about that
<knome> shawnb, you missed at least two of my messages, let me repaste:
<knome> 04:31  knome: i would say we would need to test the apt://-links though.
<knome> 04:31  knome: and that's the reason why i'm not sure about that
<knome> (yes, the timestamp is to indicate that it is 4:30am here)
<shawnb> dang need to do my updates; my audio crashed my system - oh wow 4:30am
<shawnb> yeah like I said in the default install it does open USC; that's a new fresh install of xubuntu 12.04.2
<shawnb> *prompt for install via USC
<knome> yup, but we still should smoketest that change
<shawnb> true
<knome> and we might be a bit too tight on time for that for the SRU
<knome> depends so much how the rest of the stuff comes along
<shawnb> absolutely; it'd be an idea to keep for future releases though
<knome> yup, we can work on that for the 13.10 docs
<knome> for those, we have a looser schedule
<knome> woo!
<knome> http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-s/group/topic-s-flavor-xubuntu.html
<Unit193> You renamed it.
<knome> yeah, i was told it wasn't showing up because of that
<knome> the topic blueprints used to be topic-raring-* though, so...
<shawnb> knome - how would you like me to go about the documentation changes - put them in a document and mail it to the mailing list or discuss them on here?
<knome> shawnb, the optimal way would be merge proposals
<knome> shawnb, want me to go through that now? :)
<shawnb> yes that would be great
<knome> okay
<knome> so how familiar were you with bzr?
<shawnb> I've used it in the past to download packages like you do with git for compilation
<shawnb> I haven't committed any changes or anything like that
<knome> ok
<knome> so let's assume you have branched the docs and done some changes
<knome> then you would want to commit and push it. commit happens locally, pushing... pushes the code online
<knome> so first, the commit:
<knome> bzr commit
<knome> that will open you a text editor where you should write the commit message
<shawnb> anything specific e.g. chapter 6 where it says xyz changed line ____ to ____
<knome> no, you don't need to be that specific
<knome> more in the lines of:
<shawnb> quick question, are we using the old documentation interface (natty/oneric) to update or the new one (precise)
<knome> "Reviewed chapter 6, updated application names and removed a mention of XYZ, which doesn't exist in 12.04"
<knome> the new one
<shawnb> ok, thank you
<knome> so basically, a commit message is a descriptive but brief comment about the changes you've made
<knome> if you write a good one, we can repurpose that in the changelog, which is awesome
<shawnb> do you commit per change or do all the changes then commit?
<Unit193> You may want to  bzr whoami  first.
<knome> use common sense: try to group meaningful subgroups into commits
<knome> eg. committing every spelling error fix is bad
<knome> otoh, totally rewriting a few sections and doing one commit is bad as well
<shawnb> bzr whoami - Shawn Barnes <slooksterpsv@gmail.com>
<knome> yup, that looks good
<knome> (let's see if you also need to do other things...)
<shawnb> sections meaning chapters or sections meaning pieces of the chapter
<knome> anyway, once you've committed, you want to push
<knome> sections meaning chapters :)
<knome> as i said, just use common sense
<knome> it's humans who review it anyway, so anything that you think is sensible bunch of changes is probably fine
<knome> so once you've committed once or twice or how many times you need to, type:
<knome> bzr push
<knome> ...and forget that.
<knome> you will need to specify a different push location, so:
<knome> bzr push lp:~yourlpnick/xubuntu-docs/precise-branchname
<knome> you can do a test commit/push now so we can go through it
<knome> it can be anything, even just something silly.
<shawnb> so bzr push lp:~slooksterpsv/xubuntu-docs/precise-????
<knome> yup
<shawnb> nothing where the ??? is right?
<shawnb> or branch
<knome> and the complete branchname could be for example precise-chapter6
<knome> or something descriptive
<knome> it doesn't really matter what it is - you will need to enter something
<shawnb> ok so it'll create a branch via my name for that
<knome> yes
<knome> so go ahead and change something, then bzr commit and bzr push
<knome> then we'll go through what that does and how you'd do the actual merge proposal
<shawnb> ok I compiled the docs is that going to be a problem when I try the push?
<knome> no, the built docs are ignored
<knome> (there's a line in .bzrignore for that)
<shawnb> bzr: ERROR: Not a branch: "/home/shawn/Xubuntu Community/Documentation/".
<knome> right. you need to be in the xubuntu-docs-precise directory
<shawnb> oh ok
<knome> or whatever your branch directory is
<knome> same with bzr commit and push
<shawnb> ok so it's finding revisions and uploading
<knome> great!
<shawnb> oops I did push not commit
<shawnb> commit first then push right?
<knome> yep
<shawnb> can I delete this branch?
<knome> let's do the fake merge request first
<knome> as you probably noticed, it appeared in https://code.launchpad.net/~slooksterpsv
<knome> on https://code.launchpad.net/~slooksterpsv/xubuntu-docs/precise-testpush, you have a link that says "propose for merging"
<knome> click that
<shawnb> ok
<knome> the target branch for the precise docs is: lp:xubuntu-docs/precise
<knome> you'll have to enter that manually
<shawnb> ok
<knome> (or click choose, but you'll end up writing almost as much)
<shawnb> haha yeah
<knome> then in the description field you can write a description of *all* the commits you did
<knome> i would be fine if that spot mentioned which chapters you touched.
<knome> you can leave the reviewer empty
<shawnb> okay
<knome> i'll catch the xubuntu merge proposals anyway, and that leaves it open for others if they have time
<knome> then just click propose merge
<shawnb> you want me to click propose merge now?
<knome> (this time, add knome as the reviewer, and click propose merge now)
<shawnb> *do you - wow I can't type today;
<knome> (so we won't email other people)
<shawnb> any extra commit messages or that
<knome> nope, you can always leave the advanced stuff as they are
<shawnb> alrighty; now can I delete the merge and branch lol
<knome> great, so now https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-doc/xubuntu-docs/precise tells me there are 2 branches proposed
<knome> and your merge proposal is at: https://code.launchpad.net/~slooksterpsv/xubuntu-docs/precise-testpush/+merge/174595
<knome> that page will show everybody the diff
<knome> (nothing in this case, since you didn't change anything
<shawnb> oh ok
<knome> and the fantastic thing
<knome> after we've reviewed that, it's super easy to merge into the actual documentation
<knome> so by doing the merge request, you help us merging things in the docs
<knome> rather than sending documents where we need to see what's changed etc
<shawnb> awesome; that makes it a lot easier than I thought it would be
<knome> with MP's, everything is in the docbook format so we don't need to copypaste anything
<knome> (and you can *now* delete the branch :))
<shawnb> that's awesome
<knome> (i just deleted the MP)
<shawnb> awesome I delete the branch
<knome> great
<knome> so now you know how to do a merge proposal
<knome> before you start working on anything,
<shawnb> yay I'm excited that's awesome
<knome> you might want to email the mailing list telling you're working on X
<knome> to cooperate and make sure nobody else is doing the same
<shawnb> ok I'll start small for now till I get the hang of things
<knome> but other than that, there's no limits
<knome> the documentation should have pretty good examples of all docbook markup you might need
<knome> so just look at the other files
<shawnb> yeah I was looking through a lot of it earlier today and its just like you said xml
<knome> if you think you need something that's not done yet - think again - and if you still insist - ask other first :)
<knome> *others
<knome> i pretty much used docbook to its limits
<knome> so it's possible there just isn't a better way to do something
<knome> if you end up needing to add chapters
<knome> you can just follow the example in the index file and before committing, run 'bzr add .' (which adds all new files into your branch)
<knome> ...or you can ask me to lay the groundwork for you
<knome> does that all make sense to you or would you like to ask something?
<knome> huhu, Unit193 reconnecting
<Unit193> Figured I'd do so since things are slow, and it was bugging me. :P  I've been checking the blueprints, and only thing I can see that I could technically do is review of docs (again.) :/
<knome> is there something else you could do if somebody helped you with it?
<knome> also, there are testcases, which are not exactly documentation...
<knome> and what about helping out with the flyer content? (i know, that's boring writing too...)
<knome> and i don't think it's mentioned on the blueprints
<knome> tbh, we don't have too many things in there
<knome> if you filed those bugs i've said "file and let's get them sorted", please link them to -development blueprint
<Unit193> I had thought they were wiki'd, but can't find it.  Some are already looked at, and jockey was part of it.  I'm supposed to be tracking libdvdcss-{pgk,installer}, and nothing new there for a while now.
<knome> mhm
<Unit193> (Also did some grepping.)
<knome> what about the popup menu thingy?
<Unit193> Oh, wasn't thinking that one, was more a RFC. :P
<knome> start thinking
<Unit193> As in, if at least one other person thinks it's a good idea I could try a merge proposal.
<knome> you've done well with speaking up (and in correct channels too), now time to start using more of the brain ;)
<Unit193> Hah, well just need to make sure it's not a hair brain idea.  Checking about pulling an older jockey.desktop file too.
<knome> ah, yes, that one too
<Unit193> Natty didn't do translations, so it'd seem? http://paste.openstack.org/show/Atyf2PvRuhHTd1wSRNc8/
<knome> hmm.
<knome> apparently not
<Unit193> http://pastebin.com/hqRBUCK7 from updated natty.
<Unit193> xubuntu-icon-theme still carries the icon, BTW.
<knome> right
<Unit193> And on another note: https://bugs.launchpad.net/mir/+bugs?field.tag=entering-saucy we need to prep anything for that?
<knome> umpf
<knome> no idea
<shawnb> thank you knome - I'll start working on this asap; I had a family thing come up due to having a viewing and funeral in the next 2 days so that's why I disappeared
<knome> shawnb, no problem
<knome> all the best with those
<pleia2> knome: saturday is my day off :) (I was out all day, will be back in my AM)
<knome> pleia2, no problemo
<knome> pleia2, didn't remember you had such things, you used to work all days like a mad one :P
<knome> pleia2, good night!
 * pleia2 has been trying to take 1 per week ;)
<pleia2> gian1: btw, the only invite I have on deviantart is from 2 days ago and it has expired
<knome> tabfail
<pleia2> haha, oops
<knome> and yeah, i fully support people taking days off and other breaks
<pleia2> I am too tired
<pleia2> gridcube isn't here
<knome> YOU?
<pleia2> gian1: sorry :)
<knome> it's 9am+
<knome> and i haven't slept for a minute
<pleia2> crazy person
<knome> i just had breakfast and now there's some coffee
<pleia2> hehe
<knome> i usually do a few allnighters per year
<knome> planned or unplanned..
<pleia2> my brain turns to mush when I don't sleep
<knome> i've been filling crosswords and stuff like that :P
<pleia2> :)
<knome> so apparently mine behaves the other way
<pleia2> alright, sleepies time for me
<pleia2> good luck ;)
<knome> nighty night!
<Noskcaj> Can someone have a look at the new xfce4-indicator-plugin's patches? i think the patch is unnecessary
<knome> which patch
<Noskcaj> debian/patches/migrate-xfcerc-xfconf.patch: Handle the blacklist migration to Xfconf.
<Noskcaj> either unnecessary or broken
<knome> morning elfy 
<elfy> hi knome 
<elfy> no good tellin Unit193 to talk to forestpiskie - he has Unit193 on /ignore or did I mean /what? 
<knome> heh
<elfy> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lincolnshire-23296285
<elfy> about 40 seconds in - that'd be noisy ... 
<knome> huhu
<elfy> d'oh thought this was the offtopic channel ...
<Noskcaj> knome, the conflict (and the area the patch affects) is at http://paste.ubuntu.com/5873350/ and t
<Noskcaj> elfy, i can't help but feel the first two tests in XFCEDisplay are slightly redundant
<elfy> open and close ones? I feel the same - but we need to test it works I guess
<elfy> we're supposed to be testing it - not testing what we think we should be testing
<elfy> I feel that the parole one shouldn't rely on someone having an active internet connection
<Noskcaj> Not the open/close per-se, more the fact that after that, you explicitly tests opening it
<Noskcaj> And near the very bottom, you seem to have repeated part
<elfy> just comment on it - I'm not looking at it or pretty much anything at all today :)
<Noskcaj> I agree that parole should need a connection, but we have no sample media
<Noskcaj> I'll fix it and merge, it's mostly just removing a few redundant/repeated parts
<elfy> don't do that - just comment - I'll fix it tomorrow 
<elfy> Noskcaj: don't merge it either - I need to practise that - comment and I'll fix when it's approved I'll do the merge
<Noskcaj> oh, you have merge rights now?
<elfy> have had for ages - just never done it - I'm wanting to keep on top of our tests so I know where we are 
<Noskcaj> I've reviewed it, back to pretending i understand package merging
<elfy> k
<elfy> I'll sort it out tomorrow
<pleia2> hm, still no gridcube
<elfy> interwebs aren't fun sometimes :(
<Unit193> knome: No idea if I did the translations thing right, and guessing not: https://code.launchpad.net/~unit193/+junk/xubuntu-default-settings
<Unit193> (http://paste.openstack.org/show/1JO21NRVd2QISpbuWSrW/)
<Unit193> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~xubuntu-dev/xubuntu-default-settings/trunk/revision/408 using that as a base.
<Noskcaj> Is anyone willing to help merge the latest xfce4-indicator-plugin?
#xubuntu-devel 2014-07-07
<bluesabre> micahg: test cases added for bugs without... thanks knome for adding proper test cases for each bug you reported :)
<bluesabre> micahg: if you could also upload this to trusty-proposed, I'll try not to bother you too much for a while :)
<bluesabre> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/lightdm-gtk-greeter/+bug/1331871
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1331871 in lightdm-gtk-greeter (Ubuntu) "[SRU] Please backport lightdm-gtk-greeter 1.8.5 to trusty" [Undecided,New]
<micahg> that one's a bit easier
<micahg> hrm, backportpackage doesn't have an option to set the changelog
<micahg> *author 
<bluesabre> yeah, its fairly limited in what it can do
<micahg> hrm, wish I had more time, would be easy enough to add
<micahg> I have to run out, I'll upload when I get back
<bluesabre> thanks micahg
<knome> bluesabre, but of course :)
<bluesabre> ochosi: https://trello.com/c/dXlplvY7
<bluesabre> need any help?
<bluesabre> bbl
<ochosi> hey bluesabre 
<ochosi> oh
<ochosi> to late
<ochosi> bluesabre: the fix is there and seb128 said he'll merge and upload it
<ochosi> it's just taking time, i need to remind him every now and then
<bluesabre> too slow ochosi
<bluesabre> ;)
<bluesabre> back to work again today, so won't be getting much done... maybe you want to work on the display dialog?
<ochosi> hmm, maybe, during the day i gotta work
<ochosi> so either @night or tomorrow
<ochosi> the week is a bit busy, and actually i also have to get xfpm in shape
<ochosi> bluesabre: holy cow, the greeter is getting more and more customizable...
<ochosi> andrew just submitted another MR
<ochosi> i guess we have to start reviewing all that
<bluesabre> yeah, was planning on reviewing everything tonight, and proposing the first 1.9 release
<bluesabre> there's already so much in there
<ochosi> yeah
<ochosi> true that
<ochosi> so i got a reply meanwhile from seb128
<ochosi> it's dragging along a bit
<ochosi> but yeah
<bluesabre> :)
<bluesabre> I'll probably work on the display settings tonight.  I need to pick up catfish and menulibre shortly too.
<bluesabre> anyway, heading to work now
<bluesabre> hope to see xfpm 1.4 this weekend ;)
<ochosi> hah, you're kidding ;)
<ochosi> still too much on the roadmap: https://wiki.xfce.org/design/power-manager
<ochosi> but yeah, trying...
<knome> bluesabre, ochosi: you might want to make sure you've looked at bug 1319598 (mentioned on #xubuntu as well)
<ubottu> bug 1319598 in xfce4-power-manager (Ubuntu) "Power manager no longer suspends 'power manager not authorised'" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1319598
<knome> hey ochosi (can't hide, i see you talking)
<ochosi> hey knome 
 * ochosi isn't hiding
<ochosi> or if so, then in plain sight :)
<ochosi> what's up?
<knome> hehe, yeah, because i called you out ;)
<knome> see my last comment on this channel
<knome> should also have your highlight
<ochosi> yeah yeah, but i can't look at xfpm bugs all day :)
<ochosi> TRACE[xfpm-polkit.c:455] xfpm_polkit_check_auth_intern(): Action=org.freedesktop.upower.suspend is authorized=FALSE
<knome> hahe
<ochosi> that's what's up ^
<knome> well i don't understand much of that
<knome> but i thought it would be nice to *fix* that if it's really something that is fixable
<ochosi> commented
<knome> cheers
<ochosi> np
 * ochosi tries
<knome> hehe
<knome> how's everything (else)?
<ochosi> what, in xubuntu?
<knome> pick the scope yourself
<ochosi> humm depends, i might have to switch channels :p
<ali1234> okay who wants to test something for me?
<knome> what about describing first? :P
<ali1234> mkdir /home/user/test, put "XDG_DATA_DIRS=${XDG_DATA_DIRS}:/home/user/test" into ~/.pam_environment, log out, log in
<ali1234> observe that gsettings instantly crashes on login, gvfsd instantly crashes when trying to use it, oneconf-service instantly crashes on startup, and apport freezes while trying to process the crash dumps
<ali1234> remove the line and everything works fine again
<ali1234> you might not even see any apport dialogues, but if you look in /var/crash the evidence is clear...
<Unit193> +N  desktop-guide/po/ko.po
<elfy> Unit193: so what's the craic with the xore thing then?
<Unit193> elfy: Still standing at the meta upload if you want to be able to install it not as a task.
<Unit193> elfy: Was that information enough?
<elfy> yep thanks Unit193 - I read it then wandered off to eat and forgot :)
<Unit193> Sure, just trying to keep you up to date.  Would you like to go ahead without the upload?  I think bluesabre had it proposed for uploading, but I haven't checked to confirm yet.
<elfy> I'd rather wait - I'm tied for time tbh - and don't want to be mucking about too much
<Unit193> Coolio.
<Unit193> bluesabre: https://code.launchpad.net/~xubuntu-dev/ubuntu/utopic/xubuntu-meta/add-inxi/+merge/225243 did you happen to look at bzr status before committing?
<bluesabre> Unit193: yes? what'
<bluesabre> s wrong with the commit?
<Unit193> Thought it'd have core, no?
<bluesabre> I thought this one was just inxi
<Unit193> Generally update everything when pushing meta changes, if I understand correctly.
<bluesabre> its just ./update
<bluesabre> so, https://code.launchpad.net/~xubuntu-dev/ubuntu-seeds/xubuntu.utopic
<bluesabre> not sure what I missed, your commit is there
<bluesabre> checking now
<Unit193> Same.
<bluesabre> ah
<bluesabre> think I found it
<bluesabre> one sec
<Unit193> Looking at metapackage-map?
<bluesabre> update.cfg
<bluesabre> seeds: desktop core
<bluesabre> its building now, takes a while, this might be a problem: ? Unknown core package: xubuntu-core
<Unit193> Yep, that's the one.  And no, that's not really a problem.
<bluesabre> ok
<Unit193> (It's been so long since I did this.)
<bluesabre> :)
<bluesabre> that's neat, seeing the linux kernels for the various phone architectures
<bluesabre> finished, not sure the core file was actually added
<bluesabre> http://dpaste.com/2D320NH
<bluesabre> oh wait
<bluesabre> gotta add it
<bluesabre> :)
<bluesabre> there we go
<knome> where are we going?
<knome> are we there yet?
<bluesabre> https://code.launchpad.net/~xubuntu-dev/ubuntu/utopic/xubuntu-meta/add-inxi/+merge/225243
<bluesabre> updated
<bluesabre> micahg: if you get a chance, would you mind handling the above merge?
#xubuntu-devel 2014-07-08
<knome> i don't know if it's related, but i've recently noticed how gvfs-metadata is running and it simply won't stop...
<knome> i mean, it'll stop if i kill it, but if not, there doesn't seem to be no end to it
<knome> anybody have an idea how to debug?
<bluesabre> I think ali1234 noted something about that recently
<knome> aha
<ali1234> sounds like the thumbnailer going crazy
<knome> well it's definitly something.
<micahg> bluesabre: can't do it tonight, I can take a look tomorrow evening
<Unit193> bluesabre: Did you ask dholbach or xn ox about writing something nice for your application to the DMB?
<bluesabre> Unit193: dholbach has given me a good endorsement
<bluesabre> not sure xn ox has sponsored many packages for me
<Unit193> http://ubuntu-dev.alioth.debian.org/cgi-bin/ubuntu-sponsorships.cgi?render=html&sponsor=&sponsor_search=name&sponsoree=Sean+Davis&sponsoree_search=name a few.
<bluesabre> Dmitry?
<Unit193> Yeah.
<Unit193> But yeah, you seem to snag dholbach a lot. :D
<bluesabre> :)
#xubuntu-devel 2014-07-09
<micahg> bluesabre: would another day be problematic for the 2 open things you wanted me to review?
<bluesabre> micahg: I think that should be okay.  Do you know when the 14.04.1 freeze is?
 * micahg checks
<micahg> hum, should be Thursday
<micahg> err...next thrusday
<micahg> away
<Unit193> OK.
<bluesabre> ok, that should be fine then.  Thanks micahg
<bluesabre> heading to bed, back tomorrow
<Unit193> pidgin and xfburn seem to be the only thing holding us back on to gst 0.10.
<Unit193> And as noted on the bp, pidgin 3.0.0 should have it fixed.
<Noskcaj> Unit193, I've sent an email to the xfburn maintainer asking if he could look into porting it
<Noskcaj> xfburn's maintainer says it will be ready sometime in august
<Unit193> Well huh.
<Noskcaj> Success! https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates/MicroReleaseExceptions/XFCE
<Unit193> Wow, nice.
<pleia2> ah yes, I was just reading the TB email, nice work Noskcaj :)
<knome> o hai pleia2!
<pleia2> oops
<knome> haha
<pleia2> :D
<knome> no worries, i'm watching footbal
<knome> +l
<Unit193> Personally a bit surprised it was accepted.
<knome> Unit193, why not?
<Noskcaj> bluesabre, Will we want parole 0.6.2 or 0.7.0 in utopic?
<bluesabre> Noskcaj: probably 0.7.0, but we are aiming for a short 0.7 cycle that is for testing and implementing other fixes/features
<Noskcaj> bluesabre, ok. I'll package 0.7.0 then.
<bluesabre> thanks, there are some new build-deps, cli options for if we want to enable clutter (I recommend that we do) https://bazaar.launchpad.net/~smd-seandavis/parole/parole-gtk3-debian/revision/17
<Noskcaj> ok
<bluesabre> ochosi, we may want to consider setting cluttersink as default in xubuntu-default-settings, let me know your thoughts (or anybody else with an opinion)
<Noskcaj> bluesabre, Do we include clutter in xubuntu already?
<bluesabre> Noskcaj, we do not, so perhaps hold off on adding the new clutter stuff
<Noskcaj> if not, i'd like to upload without it, then have a team discussion on if we want it
<bluesabre> right
<bluesabre> :)
<Noskcaj> is the gtk ifdef enforced from build-time or run-time? (just wondering)
<ochosi> runtime
<ochosi> (i think)
<bluesabre> build-time
<ochosi> heh, ok :)
 * ochosi concedes
<Noskcaj> I'll put a depends-version on >= 3.10 to be safe then
 * bluesabre is probably wrong
<bluesabre> okie dokie
<ochosi> Noskcaj: nice one! (the xfce microreleases)
<Noskcaj> ty
<Noskcaj> The only thing currently MRE worthy is clipman, but i'll try and get parole 0.6.2 into trusty later
<ochosi> bluesabre: clutter by default, not sure... thing is though, without installing it by default, ppl can't easily select/use it
<bluesabre> right
<bluesabre> discussion-worthy I think :)
<ochosi> yup
<ochosi> haven't checked how heavy clutter is
<Noskcaj> There might be something we can MRE to precise too, if it's worth the effort
<ochosi> night everyone!
<Noskcaj> g'night ochosi 
<Noskcaj> clutter bring with it clutter transitions, for one
<bluesabre> we're mainly using clutter because its backend seems to work on everything, and it works well in X or mir/wayland
<bluesabre> but it is a bit more resource-intensive
<bluesabre> but the clutter deps only add the option to use clutter, the x and xv backends are still selectable
<bluesabre> Noskcaj: haven't pushed out 0.6.2 yet, will either do it tonight or tomorrow
<Noskcaj> cool
#xubuntu-devel 2014-07-10
<Unit193> xfdesktop will need to be updated to address the trash bug.
<Unit193> http://packages.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/milestones/316/builds/67147/testcases The deadline for checking suite D is soon.
<Unit193> bluesabre: Does that imply you'll have to do another release+SRU?
<bluesabre> Unit193: if possible, I'll have a new catfish and mugshot release out this weekend, parole 0.6.2 tomorrow
<bluesabre> working on dividing shimmer-themes atm
<Unit193> Wasn't that thought about before, and rejected for one reason or another?
<bluesabre> yeah
<bluesabre> but apparently ubuntu-gnome is interested in shipping numix, but not shimmer-themes
<Unit193> I see, Numix is pretty awesome.
<bluesabre> and we're considering reducing shimmer-themes to just greybird and numix since we can't keep everything maintained
<bluesabre> micahg: let me know if you need anything from me for the uploads
<bluesabre> I'll try to stick around for a bit longer tonight :)
 * Unit193 tries to think of more things to annoy bluesabre with...
<bluesabre> O.O
<micahg> bluesabre: I just finished dinner...will take a look shortly
<Unit193> \o/
<micahg> bluesabre: just FYI, for the backport bugs, or SRUs in general, you should include the bug in the changelog
<bluesabre> thanks micahg, I knew that, slipped my mind :\
<bluesabre> xubutrello: card 59
<xubutrello> There's no list called <card 59> on the board, bluesabre. Sorry.
<knome> ahah
<slickymasterWork> :)
 * bluesabre is not sure how to work this thing
<bluesabre> anyway
<bluesabre> https://trello.com/c/7qRHFu3k
<knome> xubutrello, help
<bluesabre> and https://trello.com/c/2RXHvGiJ
<bluesabre> xubutrello: help
<knome> lists
<knome> xubutrello, lists
<xubutrello>   ->  Notes
<xubutrello>   ->  14.04.1 To Do
<xubutrello>   ->  14.04.1 Doing
<xubutrello>   ->  14.04.1 Done
<xubutrello>   ->  To Do 14.10
<xubutrello>   ->  Doing 14.10
<xubutrello>   ->  Done 14.10
<xubutrello>   ->  Postponed
<bluesabre> ok
<bluesabre> xubutrello: card 59 link
<xubutrello> Couldn't find any card with id: 59. Aborting.
<knome> card 69 link
<knome> xubutrello, card 69 link
<xubutrello> https://trello.com/c/aQh4IkER/69-prepare-shimmer-themes-for-gtk3-12
 * bluesabre scratches head
<slickymasterWork> it's xubutrello, and xubutrello: 
<slickymasterWork> and not
<bluesabre> xubutrello, card 59 link
<xubutrello> Couldn't find any card with id: 59. Aborting.
<slickymasterWork> ?!
<bluesabre> yeah, not playing nicely, enough trello spam ;)
<bluesabre> Unit193 ^
<bluesabre> elfy > https://trello.com/c/7qRHFu3k and https://trello.com/c/2RXHvGiJ
<bluesabre> added these to the calendar, they should be our last SRUs that we'll need to verify pre 14.04.1
<bluesabre> let me know how you'd like to coordinate :)
<bluesabre> micahg: thanks for the upload help :) Would you mind also merging https://code.launchpad.net/~xubuntu-dev/ubuntu/utopic/xubuntu-meta/add-inxi/+merge/225243 ?
<ochosi> bluesabre: i'll be away for the weekend starting tonight, if you wanna move the xdg-utils MR along, feel free to!
<ochosi> since upstream doesn't reply anymore that's gotten a bit stuck
<ochosi> which sucks, because the patch actually works and is super-simple
<bluesabre> ochosi: I'll see what I can do.
<bluesabre> https://code.launchpad.net/~ochosi/xdg-utils/support_xfce/+merge/224076
<bluesabre> You're right, first get it into Utopic, then SRU back into trusty.
<bluesabre> Go ahead and update https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xdg-utils/+bug/1309744
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1309744 in xdg-utils (Ubuntu) "Light Locker blanks the screen when playing video" [Undecided,New]
<bluesabre> with the SRU template though
<bluesabre> so we can do it all at once with the single sponsor
<bluesabre> especially with trusty.1 so close
<bluesabre> I'm generally online when canonical is not, so I can't interact live generally
<bluesabre> I said that twice
<bluesabre> fail :(
<bluesabre> and now I need to head to work
<bluesabre> bbl
<ochosi> bluesabre: the problem is i can't edit that bugreport
<ochosi> so i can't add the info for the SRU
<ochosi> so new bugreport?
<ochosi> anyway, g2g
<ochosi> bbl
<elfy> bluesabre: tbh - it doesn't really matter much - there's no testing being done or at least recorded anyway - so just mail the list with it, I was due to call something next week but I'm not going to as the last call was late - so to cut a long story short - do whatever you wish to at the moment :)
<Unit193> elfy: "Policykit exec is the way to go, much better.  Oh, and graphical applications will have to ship a policy to work."  Reason it isn't shipped, no packages depend on it (as before) and it's not seeded, though it's installed everywhere for me.
<Unit193> I've not found a ton on it, but that's what I gathered.
<elfy> Unit193: it's installed with everything except ubuntu us and studio
<elfy> and while pkexec might be the best way to go - I don't know why we've gone there before others ;)
<elfy> I've got policies for mousepad/thunar and terminal here locally
<ali1234> what else is there except for those three?
<ali1234> kubuntu has ksudo, no?
<ali1234> or kdesu
<elfy> yes
<elfy> lubuntu has gksudo, so does everyone except the three I mentioned :)
<ali1234> so lubuntu and kubuntu?
<elfy> ubuntu doesn't have gksudo, nor do we and studio
<ali1234> what about ubuntu-mate?
<elfy> everyone else either has that or kdesudo 
<elfy> no idea - nor do I care about it
<ali1234> well... you should
<elfy> well ... I don't 
<ali1234> they're pretty cool and they share gtk dependency and lots of code with us
<ali1234> just sayin'
<elfy> frankly all I'm concerned about is why we don't install it 
<Unit193> elfy: FWIW, yes, I had wondered in saucy why it was removed and added it back myself.  Since it's clearly handy, I see no reason why we shouldn't seed it.
<elfy> indeed
<elfy> anyway - I mailed the list and added it to the agenda for people to discuss - unfortunately I'll be working then and not available
<brainwash> does it have to be installed by default?
<Unit193> Sooo, not like we're tracking systemd much, but update: Someone started the work on systemd-shim for cgroups, so we may get 208.
<elfy> does it have to not be?
<Unit193> brainwash: Why shouldn't it be?
<brainwash> it's currently missing and no one complains
<brainwash> it can be installed easily
<elfy> and?
<elfy> what's that got to do with it?
<brainwash> why did you drop it then in the first place?
<elfy> everything can be installed easily?
<elfy> brainwash: I've no idea
<brainwash> :D
<brainwash> maybe because there is already pkexec (which requires a policy file for every app)
<elfy> wasn't anything to do with me 
<elfy> and pkexec is absolutely awesome 
<brainwash> like really?
<elfy> except it's completely pointless for us as we don't have any policy files
<elfy> so which is easier
<elfy> brainwash: you missed the sarcasm ;)
<brainwash> but it is awesome :P
<Unit193> brainwash: That's all fine and dandy, but way too many packages are missing them so it'd be like saying wayland is great and we should use it now.
<Unit193> I meant, s/wayland/mir/ ;)
<elfy> I haven't got the patience for yet another pointlessly circular argument so I'll be off
<skellat> All I can remember at the time the issue arose was some discussion about someone needing to run Firefox as root, that being belittled, discussion that the apps that truly needed coverage for pkexec were covered, and that if all else failed you could go "sudo -s" first in a terminal then do your invocations.
<Unit193> elfy: Alrighty-o.  Tschau.
<brainwash> just don't touch it then I guess
<brainwash> most people just run "sudo thunar" anyway
<brainwash> and are not familiar with gksu or pkexec
<ali1234> ochosi: do you know a way to make a single program using a different gtk3 theme? (don't bother trying to google this if you don't, none of the stuff on the web works)
<Unit193> So, the docs will need an SRU also won't they? :/
#xubuntu-devel 2014-07-11
<bluesabre> ali1324: http://worldofgnome.org/running-gtk-applications-different-themes-per-app/
<bluesabre> this may only work for gtk 3.12+, maybe 3.10
<bluesabre> it looks like gksu was removed upstream in favor of pkexec, no real reason other than that. I think we just followed lead (I was asked to remove gksudo from catfish)
<bluesabre> ... which led to me implementing my own sort of gksudo in python for catfish and any other apps that need to authenticate
<bluesabre> Noskcaj: Since you did the initial packaging for whiskermenu in debian, thought you might be interested in the new (1.4.0) release http://gottcode.org/xfce4-whiskermenu-plugin/
<bluesabre> I'll add the new release to xubuntu-staging this evening
<bluesabre> Also, going to add mousepad daily builds to xubuntu-staging, lots of development happening there currently
<bluesabre> gotta run to work, bbl
<andreipath> anyone can help ?
<andreipath> wifi swiched off by hardware switch but i cant find a way to turn it on
<andreipath> it works fine in recovery mode though 
<knome> andreipath, this isn't a support channel
<andreipath> i figured
<andreipath> bu no one on the support channel has any ideea on how to solve this
<andreipath> so i hope a developer might know something i dont :P
<Noskcaj> bluesabre, It's been in debian svn for some time
<bluesabre> this channel is surprisingly quiet today
#xubuntu-devel 2014-07-12
<knome> bluesabre, ALALALALALALALALALALA
<knome> bluesabre, better?
<bluesabre> there we go!
<bluesabre> knome: latest whiskermenu is now in -staging ppa
<bluesabre> in case you're interesting in the latest and greatest
<knome> *interested
<knome> and no, not really... i don't use menus ;)
<knome> well, i do, but only the regular menu i can get to pop up on right-clicking the desktop
<bluesabre> woops, ok
<bluesabre> working on getting mousepad daily builds in there too
<bluesabre> and xfce4-settings
<knome> yeah, i read that on #xfce-dev 
<knome> i was lurking while you discussed it ;)
<bluesabre> :)
<knome> off to bed, catch you all later
<bluesabre> nighty knome
<bluesabre> first mousepad-daily packages are now build
<bluesabre> ing
<bluesabre> mousepad daily builds are now in the xubuntu-staging ppa
<bluesabre> ok, waiting for another commit on xfce4-settings, and then its daily builds will also be available
<brainwash> should lightdm disable light-locker for the guest session? or should light-locker disable itself?
<brainwash> bug 1337834
<ubottu> bug 1337834 in xubuntu-default-settings (Ubuntu) "Light locker should be disabled for guest sessions by default" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1337834
<bluesabre> hm
<bluesabre> we might want to look into shipping a custom guest session that disables it, or having light-locker be smarter
<bluesabre> we can bug ochosi about it
<brainwash> yeah :)
<bluesabre> ochosi ochosi ochosi ochosi ochosi ochosi ochosi ochosi ochosi ochosi ochosi ochosi ochosi ochosi 
<bluesabre> should do it, he'll find that when he gets back
<brainwash> was or is there some special policy for xscreensaver?
<bluesabre> not to my knowledge
<brainwash> wow, someone is working on next-gen mousepad
<bluesabre> it looks like light-locker might be able to ship a disabled autolaunch file in /etc/guest-session/skel
<brainwash> so much git activity
<bluesabre> brainwash: yup, daily builds now in xubuntu-staging
<brainwash> nice
<brainwash> right, utilizing /etc/guest-session/skel seems to be the right way to fix it
<brainwash> bluesabre: http://forum.xfce.org/viewtopic.php?pid=33568#p33568
<bluesabre> :)
<bluesabre> xfce4-settings daily builds are now available in xubuntu-staging
<bluesabre> including the fancy new display dialog
#xubuntu-devel 2014-07-13
<jjfrv8> bluesabre, you about?
<knome> hey jjfrv8 :)
<bluesabre> jjfrv8: what's up?
<jjfrv8> bluesabre, I was trying to test menulibre and lightdm-gtk-greeter. I enabled trusty-proposed and updated, but the new versions did not show up.
<jjfrv8> I'm probably doing something stupid.
<brainwash> jjfrv8: strange, nothing in -proposed yet
<brainwash> maybe something got stuck
<bluesabre> :\
<bluesabre> micahg? ^
<bluesabre> looks like menulibre and lightdm-gtk-greeter are not available in trusty-proposed... is there something else that needs to be done?
<bluesabre> ochosi: let me know your thoughts, but I think this will also be required for 14.04.1, https://code.launchpad.net/~smd-seandavis/xubuntu-default-settings/disable-logind-lid-switch/+merge/226621
<ali1234> bluesabre: the new monitor thing works perfectly
<bluesabre> ali1234: glad to hear it :D
<ali1234> it's still missing features which would enable me to use it though: can't set arbitrary positions, and can't set the primary monitor
<bluesabre> arbitrary positions, like monitors overlapping each other, or being completely separate?
<ali1234> yes, or not aligned at the top
<ali1234> it draws my current layout correctly though
<bluesabre> hm, they shouldn't have to be aligned at the top, but there is some snapping that happens.  Might be easier to adjust if you increase the window size
<bluesabre> primary monitor might be a good thing for me to add next
<ali1234> oh, i should be able to drag and drop the monitor graphics?
<ali1234> because i can't
<ali1234> oh jeez now it exploded
<bluesabre> :O
<ali1234> i do require overlapping as well :)
<bluesabre> yeah, drag-n-drop should work, it does prevent overlapping :(
<ali1234> my layout before i tried to change anything: http://imgur.com/bzX7f0l
<bluesabre> I see
<ali1234> after i clicked around on the monitors, it all snapped out to not overlap
<ali1234> i can drag and drop the samsung into that position though, so that's good
<bluesabre> yeah, good thing we added an apply button :|
<ali1234> bottom alignment is sometimes off by one pixel, like the screenshot. however, nvidia settings also does this
<ali1234> this is definitely a massive improvement anyway
<bluesabre> ok, good to know
<ali1234> (the bottom misalignment is just cosmetic)
#xubuntu-devel 2015-07-06
<ochosi> late evening all
<knome> hey ochosi 
 * ochosi waves
<ochosi> oh wow, even bluesabre is sort of online
<bluesabre> I am visible?
<bluesabre> :o
<knome> yes, no stealth mode allowed
<ochosi> :)
<ochosi> so whazzup?
<ochosi> i've been pretty much afk for a few days with all the RL work
<bluesabre> not much here... trying to take care of the todo list my wife keeps adding to
<bluesabre> I reinforced a wobbly/broken chair leg over the weekend, felt super awesome with that :D
<ochosi> :>
<knome> haha
<knome> it's hot...
 * ochosi tore down false ceilings, restructured walls, redid electrical wiring in some rooms, colored doors and parts of windows etc
<ochosi> (and more to come)
<ochosi> and yeah, it's hot over here too...
<bluesabre> nice job ochosi :D
<ochosi> i was trying hard not to make you feel too bad about your "chair leg" ;)
<knome> "colored doors"
<knome> do you mean "painted" ?
<ochosi> yeah well, re-colored, i think "color" is an ok verb
<Unit193> Crayons, so colored.
<ochosi> hehe
<bluesabre> crayons? ochosi? probably chalk
<ochosi> chalk. choke. joke.
<knome> nah, ochosi is clearly more of a finger-paint kind of person
<knome> and the artistic level matches the suggested ages for those
<knome> :X
 * ochosi bows
<bluesabre> but yeah, probably minimal productivity around here tonight
<ochosi> right, probably same here
<ochosi> too tired to do much real work anymore
<knome> "real work" after midnight?
 * knome listens to "Fear of a Blank Planet" by Porcupine Tree
<knome> great prog album
<knome> pleia2, does that (comment @#x) make you a "sticker" ?
<pleia2> sticker?
<knome> i guess, a "unixsticker(.com)"
<knome> (not a paid ad)
<pleia2> o_o
<knome> \o/
 * knome confuses people
<knome> eeeeeeeexcellent
#xubuntu-devel 2015-07-07
<rizalroxx> hello
<ochosi> evening folks
<Noskcaj> How many packages do we have that need work for gcc-5? Just places-plugin and lightdm?
<bluesabre> good evening all
<knome> hello sean
<bluesabre> hi knome
<bluesabre> pasi
<bluesabre> :D
 * knome bows
<knome> double-ping then, eh
<Unit193> bluesabre: Howdy.
<bluesabre> hi Unit193
<bluesabre> unit
<bluesabre> :D
<knome> lol
<knome> hello $undisclosed_first_name
<pleia2> next xubuntu at article is from a school in puerto rico \o/
<pleia2> will prep blog post soon
<knome> great!
<knome> i guess i should poke at my contact at some point
<pleia2> I have another computer recycling type place in the wings too (I asked them to get questions back to me by August)
<knome> mmh
<knome> you mean answers?
<pleia2> those too
<knome> :)
#xubuntu-devel 2015-07-08
<Unit193> micahg: Thanks for the upload.
<micahg> Unit193: sure
<micahg> anyone want to test this? https://bugs.launchpad.net/trusty-backports/+bug/1391487
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1391487 in trusty-backports "Please backport xfce4-settings 4.11.3-0ubuntu2 (universe) from utopic" [Undecided,New]
<ali1234> can someone test something for me please?
<ali1234> open mousepad, open preferences, editor tab, set tab width to 33, press okay
<ali1234> this will crash mousepad
<flocculant> ali1234: ack that with the version in dev ppa
<ali1234> i'm on the dev ppa too... was hoping someone would test without it
<ali1234> i'll test in virtualbox when it's updated
<ali1234> thanks anyway tho
<flocculant> I'll purge the ppa then
<ali1234> it's okay
<flocculant> did it - crashed same with mousepad 0.40
<ochosi> ali1234: oh wow, interesting crash. and yeah, i can reproduce
<ali1234> found the bug
<ali1234> i'll send a patch upstream
<ochosi> weird that a value that is out of schema range can cause a segfault
<ali1234> yeah
<ochosi> is it in gsettings?
<ali1234> not sure
<ali1234> i think i see it
<ali1234> doing an apport...
<ali1234> bug 1472690
<ubottu> Error: Launchpad bug 1472690 could not be found
<ali1234> bug 1472690
<ubottu> bug 1472690 in mousepad (Ubuntu) "Mousepad crashes when setting tab width > 32" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1472690
<ali1234> https://bugzilla.xfce.org/show_bug.cgi?id=12055
<ubottu> bugzilla.xfce.org bug 12055 in General "Setting tab width to 33 crashes mousepad" [Normal,New]
<ali1234> so what happens is the gsettings object becomes invalid when you try to store a wrong value in it, then later an assertion crashes mousepad because the object isn't valid
<ochosi> codebrainz: ^ fun bug :)
<pleia2> if anyone wants to proof read the latest Xubuntu at... article: http://xubuntu.org/?p=3361&preview=true (need to be a Xubuntu team member w/ login to the site to view)
<pleia2> knome: ^^
<knome> will do that in an hour or so
<knome> *within
<pleia2> ty
<codebrainz> ali1234, ochosi, nice :)  The more curious thing to me is 1) why would one want 33-wide tabs, and 2) how did they set them to 33 since the UI limits to 32
<codebrainz> I'll have a look. If it didn't hard-crash I'd just say "unsuported", but well...
<ali1234> the UI doesn't limit to 32... that's the problem
<ali1234> it limits to 128
<codebrainz> it does here
<ali1234> i put a patch on xfce bugzilla
<ali1234> no really i checked the code :)
<codebrainz> http://i.imgur.com/ZMVUa8g.png
<codebrainz> i mean you could force it through dconf-editor though
<ali1234> what is that...
<codebrainz> screenshot of mousepad from Git master with a nasty gtk theme
<ali1234> is that a slider??
<codebrainz> yeah
<ali1234> mine doesn't have a slider
<ali1234> it doesn't look anything like that at all
<codebrainz> are you using gtk2 or 3?
<ali1234> gtk2
<ali1234> http://i.imgur.com/FdwA3fZ.png
<ali1234> why do you have a separate window just for the tab width? i don't even...
<codebrainz> ah ... I thought you meant Document->Tab Size->Other ...
<ali1234> i didn't even know that was a thing
<Unit193> Gtk2 mousepad is nicer. :/
<ali1234> yeah the per-document setting is fine
<ali1234> btw
<ali1234> reason i wanted this was because i had a datafile which was tab-delimited
<codebrainz> ali1234: did you have any look at why the hard-crash?
<ali1234> and i wanted the data columns to line up, and was too lazy to import in a spreadsheet
<ali1234> so i just tried to make tab stop huge -> crash
<ali1234> and the crash happens because if you try to set the gsettings value to something invalid, the whole gsettings object becomes invalid, then a later assertion crashes
<codebrainz> ugh, nice
<ali1234> didn't look any deeper than that
<codebrainz> since it's hard-coded, I guess I won't investigate too deeply either, as it shouldn't be allowed to go out of range (modulo the bug)
<ali1234> on a completely unrelated note, text files with 5MB of text and no line breaks makes mousepad unhappy
<codebrainz> s/mousepad/many editors/ :)
<SwissBot> codebrainz: You did something wrong... Try s/you/me/ or tell me "help sed"
<ali1234> but basically no text editors can handle that
<codebrainz> 5mb sure, but without the line break, even on Scintilla editors like Geany it'll bomb
<codebrainz> IIRC Gtksourceview keeps a list of line strings, so I guess it only has one huge link
<ali1234> gedit will warn you if you try to open such a file, i think
<ali1234> mousepad opens it, thinks for like four hours, then draws the whole line wordwrapped but on a single line, so it looks like when the paper gets stuck in a typewriter and you just keep going
<codebrainz> oh wow, with line-wrapping too, nice :)
<codebrainz> I'm not even sure how you'd warn about that without scanning and counting how many newlines
<ali1234> well you must have scanned through it before displaying it
<ali1234> i could look at how gedit does it some time, if you're interested
<codebrainz> i'd have to look to be sure, but I don't think mousepad does much besides dump the file contents straight into GSV buffer
<codebrainz> ali1234: I'm not strictly opposed, but it's kind of outside of mousepad's scope to handle such files (IMO)
<codebrainz> but someone made a simple patch that didn't add an additional pass of scanning the buffer just for that, I would probably be ok with it
<ali1234> would be nice if it didn't crash though
<ali1234> i tink this might be the cause of "mousepad becomes unresponsive after some time"
<codebrainz> oh
<ali1234> i mean technically it doesn't crash... if you are patient enough
<codebrainz> maybe it could just check if the file is greater than N kb/mb and put up a dialog "The mouspad text editor is not suitable to huge files, and if it doesn't have sufficient line breaks it will probably eat your breakfast"
<codebrainz> with an "I agree" button
<ali1234> yeah i might be misremembering on gedit actually... it might just do that
<ali1234> let me check
<codebrainz> we discussed such a thing for Geany, as it doesn't handle massive files well if syntax highlighting is enabled (or if on single line)
<ali1234> hmm gedit has a loading progress bar with a cancel button now
<codebrainz> neat
<ali1234> but attempting to scroll the file killed it
<ali1234> it actually lets you view the file before it finished loading too
<codebrainz> mousepad seems to handle massive files quite well, assuming they have line breaks
<codebrainz> (at least last time i checked)
<codebrainz> ali1234: i guess it needs to get lower bound set too
<codebrainz> changing it to zero also crashes it
<ali1234> doh
<codebrainz> you mind if I amment your commit?
<ali1234> go for it
<codebrainz> *amend
<ali1234> i tested setting -1 in gsettings
<codebrainz> (just to avoid two micro commits for same issue)
<ali1234> but not 0
<ali1234> -1 also seems to be the default in the schema
<codebrainz> what happens with -1?
<ali1234> it seems to use 4 as a default
<codebrainz> ok, fine
<ali1234> but you can't have -1 without also allowing 0
<ali1234> i didn't understand what that was all about, so i left it
<codebrainz> ali1234: did you put your patch in a separate branch?
<ali1234> i don't think so?
<ali1234> i just git pulled
<codebrainz> I mean i want to git commit --amend to it, which will re-write the sha1 of it
<codebrainz> so you'll have to undo it or it might give grief when you pull next time
<ali1234> no problem, i'm used to that stuff
<codebrainz> okie
<codebrainz> http://git.xfce.org/apps/mousepad/commit/?id=15f4e5a47bd85d2cd831f65d6a66e548ad4d5708
<ali1234> thanks
<codebrainz> and to you
<codebrainz> note to self: review all prefs to make sure there are no other crashes accessible from UI :)
<ali1234> going to amend this too? http://git.xfce.org/apps/mousepad/tree/mousepad/org.xfce.mousepad.gschema.xml?id=15f4e5a47bd85d2cd831f65d6a66e548ad4d5708#n107
<codebrainz> where is it from?
<codebrainz> oh the schema
<codebrainz> ali1234: it _might_ be that I smarty made -1 use a safe hardcoded default value
<codebrainz> *smartly
<ali1234> hmm gedit loaded that 5MB text file
<ali1234> wordwrapped it all, and it works absolutely fine
<codebrainz> i don't see why I'd put -1 instead of 0 or 1 otherwise
<ali1234> must be gtk3?
<codebrainz> could be. i think ./configure --enable-gtk3 will force it with mousepad, if you want to test
<ali1234> i'll give it a try
<ali1234> this works fine, as long as you wait for it to finish loading before you try to do anything
<ali1234> oh wait, no, i just didn't get to the looooong line
<ali1234> now it froze
<codebrainz> hehe
<codebrainz> you need better files :)
#xubuntu-devel 2015-07-09
<Unit193> Debian #775004
<ubottu> Debian bug 775004 in wnpp "ITP: freshplayerplugin -- PPAPI-host NPAPI-plugin adapter" [Wishlist,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/775004
<Unit193> In NEW.
<bluesabre> hoohoo
<bluesabre> ali1234, Unit193: if the gtk3 version of mousepad isn't quite where we need it, we can switch back to gtk2
<bluesabre> with greybird, nobody would notice :)
<bluesabre> ochosi: you pinged me a while back about doing a new artwork release soon... would that be nowish?
<bluesabre> Noskcaj: still haven't looked at your merge, but I should be back around my computer tonight, going to catch up then
 * bluesabre flies away for the time being
<ali1234> bluesabre: i don't know of any issues with the gtk3 version, i've never tried it to be honest
<ali1234> the gtk3 gtksourceview seems like an improvement, fwiw
<ochosi> bluesabre: have you noticed odd sorting in the gtk3 open file dialog too? seems it mixes files&folders plus its descending (from z). very confusing
<ochosi> or maybe it's just me, but i'd prefer to make sure
<jjfrv8> ochosi, I see that you have the skeleton of the thunar docs on the wiki, would you like me to start pecking away at that?
<Noskcaj> thanks bluesabre 
<Noskcaj> Should we be putting all the packages with a gtk3 option into xubuntu-sstaging with gtk3 enabled? It's probably worth testing them
<bluesabre> Noskcaj: I'm not sure -staging is the best place for that...
<Noskcaj> fair enough, should i make a new ppa for that stuff?
<bluesabre> hm
<bluesabre> one sec
<bluesabre> this should do
<bluesabre> https://launchpad.net/~xubuntu-dev/+archive/ubuntu/xfce4-gtk3
<Noskcaj> ok. When i have functional internet i'll get a few gtk3 packages there
#xubuntu-devel 2015-07-10
<bluesabre> great, thanks Noskcaj :)
<Noskcaj> bluesabre, for garcon, should it be garcon-1 and garcon-gtk2-1 in one deb, garcon-2 and garcon-gtk3-1 in the other?
<Noskcaj> And should i make a separate gtk-doc deb, only put the docs in one deb, or put it in both -dev debs?
<micahg> is it the same interface?
<Noskcaj> micahg, i think so
<micahg> do we really need both versions?
<Noskcaj> For the time being, this is just for the gtk3 testing PPA
<micahg> I would just suggest using the same package names unless it breaks the ABI
#xubuntu-devel 2015-07-11
<Noskcaj> bluesabre, Are there any released gtk3 ports that i've missed? (other than notes, which is incomplete)
<virtualsagacity> Hello! I've been an avid (X)ubuntu user for many years, and I'd like to dip my toes into the waters of contributing. How might I go about doing that?
<Noskcaj> virtualsagacity, I suggest you have a look at http://xubuntu.org/contribute/
<virtualsagacity> In fact, that's how I found this IRC channel! :)
<virtualsagacity> Is there any room for a novice coder on the Development team, or should I leave well enough alone on that?
<Noskcaj> There's always room to help
<Noskcaj> What coding language(s) do you know?
<virtualsagacity> C++, primarily. Java, a little.
<virtualsagacity> I don't know how much help I'd be (probably very little at first), but I'd really love to contribute in that way, even if it's down the road after I sharpen my "real world" skills. :)
<Noskcaj> ok. There's a few xfce packages that are c++ that you could probably help with, just look for bugs at bugzilla.xfce.org or bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu
<virtualsagacity> Awesome. That's probably "duh" advice to you, but it's exactly what I was looking for. Thank you very much!
<andrzejr> virtualsagacity, I assume you like the xfce aspect of xubuntu - if so, the project could definitely use some man power.
<Noskcaj> perhaps also join #xfce-dev
<Noskcaj> The other xfce work is porting it to gtk3, which could definitely use extra manpower
<virtualsagacity> That's exactly right, andrzejr. And I'm glad to hear that!
<Noskcaj> On top of this, we're moving to gcc-5 this cycle, and a number of packages need patches to build properly with it. If you want to help with those, have a look at http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/pkgreport.cgi?tag=ftbfs-gcc-5;users=debian-gcc@lists.debian.org
<Noskcaj> That should about cover it
<virtualsagacity> That is amazing. Thanks for all of this! I'm gonna go dig in. :)
<Noskcaj> :)
<Noskcaj> k bye then
<bluesabre> Noskcaj: I think that's everything gtk3... though I am a bit out of the loop lately in that area
<Noskcaj> ok. Should i put some of the git branches into the ppa?
<bluesabre> sure, if they're up to date.  A lot of the gtk3 branches are quite a bit behind trunk
#xubuntu-devel 2015-07-12
<ali1234> i just installed 15.04 and it's really good
<Unit193> \o/
<ali1234> in particular the monitor tool finally works with nvidia
<ali1234> the login screen doesn't have weird overlapping wallpapers
<ali1234> and gtk3 menus don't get shoved around by the struts
<ali1234> i think there was something else but i forgot
<ali1234> good work anyway
<bluesabre> ali1234: good to hear :)
<knome> there's a point in discussion on #x (midori's version in ubuntu), somebody should likely see getting a newer version for wily(+1)
<micahg> well, we can see if the maintainer is interested still (Corsac isn't), otherwise, needs a new maintainer
<knome> micahg, so bureacracy first, then uploads? :)
<knome> i don't think people would complain too much if somebody did a one-off upload for it tbh, the last upload is ages ago
<micahg> yes, but I'd really like it maintained in Debian, there's enough unmaintained software in Ubuntu as it is
<micahg> does someone have an interest in maintaining
<micahg> ?
<Unit193> Isn't outdated and unmaintained in Ubuntu and Debian worse than outdated and unmaintained in Debian, and unmaintained in Ubuntu?
<micahg> yes, but we can solve both if someone has an interest in maintaining in Debian :)
<knome> if someone had interest in that, wouldn't they have already been stepping up?
<Unit193> Well, it's not technically 'unmaintained'
<micahg> right, red tape, hasn't been officially orphaned
<Unit193> Not even sure if Ryan is "alive"
<micahg> last upload was Jul 2012
<Unit193> His, overall?  Niiiice.
<knome> only three years.
#xubuntu-devel 2016-07-11
<flocculant> supposedly 16.04.1 releases next week 
<flocculant> bluesabre: ^^, so even though we know we've got the 2 main issues (thunar and the intel/lock thing) I guess we've got no choice but to say yes there
<knome> flocculant, i guess we can say no, but i'm not sure if that'd block the upgrade route for xubuntu... most likely not
<flocculant> hardly worth bothering then in that case ;)
<knome> yeah
<flocculant> just checking where we stand with the intel thingy
<flocculant> bluesabre: so this isn't right ... flocculant dons his positivity hat
<flocculant> I happened to see a fleeting glimpse short while ago to an update for xorg-server-intel (or close)
<flocculant> yakkety - suspend or lock > no cursor loss here
<flocculant> updated xenial - still have an issue
<Unit193> It's not been SRU'd.
<flocculant> I know that Unit193 
<Unit193> So, that's a good sign.  The changelog really doesn't show it though. :P
<flocculant> just checking something else out
<flocculant> Unit193: yea I know that too - I did check when I saw the update :)
<flocculant> just haven't had time to physically do anything here
<flocculant> bluesabre: so installing xserver-xorg-video-intel 2:2.99.917+git20160706-1ubuntu1 from yakkety on the xenial and suspend and work as expected, no cursor loss (at least here)
<Unit193> \o/
<flocculant> what do we want to do about that - I can put an urgent call out for testing that - but don't want to do so if we're not actually going to be able to do more than say 'well it works'
<flocculant> Unit193: indeed :)
<flocculant> if I don't here anything overnight I'll go ahead with a tentative shout out I guess :)
<flocculant> ochosi might want to read that ^^ 
<flocculant> Unit193: and how long would an SRU take - I'm really wanting to read no more than a week :p
<Unit193> Would be best to file it now and state that we want it in for the point release.
<flocculant> well I don't think I'd want to file it - bound to get something wrong there
<flocculant> perhaps it's best if I at least get a call out to test it now 
<Unit193> bluesabre, bluesabre, bluesabre!  We need a SRU filed! :3
<flocculant> ha ha 
<Unit193> Done.
<Unit193> flocculant: I'd test it if I hit it, but...
<flocculant> yea - I only just manage to - laptop is in an advanced state of disrepair ... 
<flocculant> Unit193: does this make sense? http://paste.ubuntu.com/19106931/
<Unit193> flocculant: FWIW, you can have them just  apt-get install xserver-xorg-video-intel/xenial  to restore.
<flocculant> actually that syntax? 
<flocculant> if so - I'll do that rather than get them download from packages twice
<flocculant> could they apt-get install package/yakkety?
<flocculant> that's all new to me - learned todays thing now :)
<Unit193> No, because people won't have that repo.  And yes that exact syntax.
<ochosi> flocculant: sounds like a plan to me
<ochosi> and also good to hear there's a tentative fix
<ochosi> i think i read about some git version of the intel driver having fixed the issue for someone before
<flocculant> Unit193: ack
<flocculant> ochosi: yep - all we can do is test it I guess
<ochosi> yeah, that plus filing the SRU as early as possible (agreed with Unit193 that bluesabre shall do that :p)
<flocculant> well mail's off now
<flocculant> night all
<ochosi> night!
<ochosi> and thanks
<mozmck> Are live-build and the other live-* scripts used to build the xubuntu iso images?
<bluesabre> evening all
<bluesabre> I see highlights!
<knome> :)
<ochosi> evening bluesabre 
<bluesabre> hey ochosi 
<bluesabre> hi knome 
<knome> o/
<bluesabre> cooking dinner :)
#xubuntu-devel 2016-07-12
<pleia2> knome, Unit193 - I'm thinking I'll upgrade dev.x.o this week
<pleia2> I'm around for a couple weeks, and if you are too to fix things, now's a good time
<flocculant> evening pleia2 :)
<pleia2> o/ flocculant 
<Unit193> Nice, alrighty-o.
<knome> pleia2, i'm around this week, except for sunday and next week i'll be off to stockholm from mon to thu
<knome> pleia2, so from my POV, if you are going to do something, do it sooner than later :)
<bluesabre> hey flocculant 
<bluesabre> I'll work on the SRU paperwork tonight
<ochosi> awesome! cause it looks like we have a winner with the yakkety driver version
<flocculant> bluesabre: okey doke - currently I'm assuming that we'll get more than me saying it fixes the issue
<flocculant> ochosi: :)
<bluesabre> flocculant: indeed, and there are a few comments on the bug report already
<flocculant> ok cool - not looked yet :)
<bluesabre> hiya ochosi 
<flocculant> bluesabre: aah I did see the 'this is nothing to do with what you said but' comment and just seen the confirming comment :)
<ochosi> hi y'all
<flocculant> would have been nice to have seen earlier - but at least it's not turned up at the end of 16.04 support cycle :p
<flocculant> this damned bug is on the first page of 123902 bugs if you sort by heat ;)
<bluesabre> I'm just glad that it doesn't seem to be our fault
<flocculant> yea 
<flocculant> if it was we'd likely have picked it up sooner though
<bluesabre> true
<flocculant> well - that's my story and I'm sticking to it :)
<flocculant> off again now - bluesabre I will look for sru bug in the morning and mail it to the list(s) for people to confirm - at that point I'll ping knome and pleia2 for shouting about it elsewhere :)
<bluesabre> great, have fun flocculant 
<flocculant> if only ... :p
<ochosi> off for some work again, ttyl
<pleia2> knome: kicked off the upgrade
<pleia2> booting into xenial kernel
<pleia2> everything broke
<pleia2> the php5 to php7 move was not at all graceful
<pleia2> alright, fixed wiki and dev, I think, with all the php7 magic done
<pleia2> knome: you'll have to look at staging
 * pleia2 back to actual job
<pleia2> actually, might as well upgrade the ram on this (free!) while I'm at it
<knome> pleia2, mmk
<pleia2> it's down, migration to 4G of ram in progress (from 2)
<knome> ah
<knome> no looking
<pleia2> I will say when it has returned
<knome> oki
<pleia2> elizabeth@xubuntu-dev:~$ free -h total        used        free      shared  buff/cache   available
<pleia2> Mem:           3.9G
<pleia2> :D
<pleia2> anyway, it's back up, play away
<knome> uhh
<knome> maybe i should set WP_DEBUG to false :P
<knome> or update the openid plugin :P
<pleia2> :)
<knome> i'll check that out later today when on desktop
<knome> thanks for taking care
<pleia2> sounds good, everything else seems to be working ok so there's probably no rush
<knome> yeah, and it's mostly me who's looking at staging anyway
<knome> (that said, i need some stuff moved to the repository and production)
#xubuntu-devel 2016-07-13
<bluesabre> xprop
<bluesabre> woops :D
<bluesabre> side note, annoying that plank does not recognize apps unless their launchers are specific with the window class
<bluesabre> seems like that could be better
<bluesabre> but not our problem :D
<bluesabre> flocculant: started spamming up https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xserver-xorg-video-intel/+bug/1568604 with SRU-related comments and and message bug squad. I'll continue progressing on this tomorrow.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1568604 in X.Org X server "Mouse cursor lost when unlocking with Intel graphics" [Medium,Confirmed]
<Unit193> \o/
<bluesabre> knome, flocculant: it's been a while since I've heard anything on https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/xubuntu-y-council, anything new?
<flocculant> bluesabre: re council - waiting for community council to comment properly - but if we don't hear soon then I'm all for just jfdi'ing what we need to do - that being change the strategy doc so people have something to nominate against
<flocculant> bluesabre: and ack the comment on bug too :)
<flocculant> bluesabre: 'they' aren't going to want a new bug for the SRU? 
<flocculant> though I do like the idea of an SRU bug with heat of huge :D
<flocculant> flexiondotorg: don't know if you've caught this discussion in here - but looks like a fix for the cursor loss bug which seemed to affect Mate mysteriously appeared in an update on yukky yuk
<flexiondotorg> o/
<flexiondotorg> Ummm, this is new information.
<flocculant> oh 
<flocculant> well basically - fixed in xubuntu on yukky
<flocculant> I installed the yak package on xenial - fixed on xenial
<flexiondotorg> Which package?
<flocculant> had a couple of our people test it - fixed
<flocculant> xserver-xorg-video-intel
<flocculant> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xserver-xorg-video-intel/+bug/1568604/comments/158 is a Mate user
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1568604 in X.Org X server "Mouse cursor lost when unlocking with Intel graphics" [Medium,Confirmed]
<flocculant> and comment 159 ... 
<flocculant> if we can get this in prior to .1 release would be nice for us both I'd think
<flocculant> must try and catch wxl too about it
<flocculant> knome: did you see Sean's  -y-council comment? 
<knome> flocculant, i'm not sure
<knome> flocculant, i didn't look at the pad at least..
<flocculant> knome: I think probably the meaning is - what's happening ...
<bluesabre> yup
<bluesabre> "what is going on around here"
<Unit193> 'sitrep'
<Unit193> And the answer: Nothing.
<Unit193> Pretty sure MATE got nowhere with the 'core' stuff as well, aye?
<knome> Unit193, haven't heard anything, should poke infinity.
#xubuntu-devel 2016-07-14
<bluesabre> flocculant, Unit193: so this happened
<bluesabre> tseliot | rbasak, bluesabre: I suspect tjaalton is on holiday. Can you bisect the driver to see what commit solves the problem, please? That would make the SRU much more self-contained.
<bluesabre> this just got a lot more complicated
<knome> noooo
<knome> ;)
<flocculant> well
<flocculant> once upon a time there was a bug
<flocculant> :p
<flocculant> bluesabre: at least at some point it will get done - not much else that we can do I guess
<bluesabre> I'll review the commits and see if any look obvious
<flocculant> I would too
<bluesabre> https://cgit.freedesktop.org/xorg/driver/xf86-video-intel/log/
<flocculant> if they made any sense to me :D
<bluesabre> (same)
<flocculant> well I'm guessing you'll have more chance than me - unless it's about elliptical circles
<Changizww> Hi, i'm using xubuntu 14.04! when i start and login to my user (and other users) desktop doesn't come up and it only shows wallpaper (however i could login by ctrl+alt+f1 and used startx to post this), can anyone help?! i remember i had this problem before and it was fixed by entering a couple of commands, but i can't remember now... thanks in advance
<Unit193> Changizww: Please don't crosspost.
<Changizww> i have to
<Unit193> No, you really don't.
<Changizww> no one answers and i can't do anything with my os and just waiting here for a response
 * genii sips
<ax562> you guys need help on testing anything?
<ax562> you guys need help on testing anything?
<knome> ax562, isos as always
<knome> note that we are close to rebuild time though.
<ax562> k
<ax562> I will zsync
<ax562> for the most part everything has been working
<ax562> on 32 bit
<ax562> intel machine 
<knome> have you reported the tests on the iso tracker?
<ax562> 64 bit intel machine
<ax562> and
<ax562> 64bit amd machine
<ax562> no, not sure how to do that :/
<knome> ok, then the testing is next to useless to us, as there's no way to track that
<Unit193> I need to test a couple. >_>
<Unit193> Do we still have David alive, btw?
<knome> i think he's just traveling an in a different city
<knome> he popped in one day during the euros at least
<ax562> ok well how can I do that
<ax562> can you provide link knome
<ax562> I'm on a new machine now
<knome> ax562, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/ISO/Walkthrough
<ax562> thanks
<ax562> http://pastebin.com/2rtAhuPm
<ax562> well I can't even open new image
<ax562> ok not sure what was going on earlier
<ax562> re zsync and now am fine
<ax562> all seems good on the install testcases
<ax562> where would I go to test bugs?
<knome> did you report the ISO test results?
<ax562> yes
<ax562> under name axockin
<ax562> couldn't get name ax5623 for some weird reason
<knome> okay
<knome> so for application testing, there are two main ways you can go
<knome> one of them is to run testcases for packages as you did with ISOs
<ax562> yeah I was looking for a way to do that
<knome> but that's very restricted as you are only ever doing the exact same tasks
<knome> packages.qa.ubuntu.com
<knome> for those
<knome> the other way is to do exploratory testing
<knome> it's described well here: http://docs.xubuntu.org/contributors/qa-testing.html#qa-testing-exploratory
<ax562> wow there is sooo much info here
<knome> yes... and it would actually help if you read it all ;)
<ax562> trying but its like reading a dictionary
<knome> i mean, in the contributor docs
<knome> well, it describes the process to test and report as we need from beginning to end
<knome> it's written to avoid having to type it all over again on an irc channel like this
<knome> you can take bitesize leaps though. you don't have to achieve all in one day - or week
<ax562> yeah I think I'm on chapter 6 on that
<ax562> if we are talking about the same thing
<ax562> can I please have that link again?
<knome> the start page is at http://docs.xubuntu.org/contributors/
<ax562> had these all bookmarked
<ax562> on a new machine now, being the case I asked again
<knome> you can actually find all the links you need from http://xubuntu.org/contribute/
<knome> believe me, this is all built so you can get access to stuff as easily as possible
<knome> as long as you remember which OS you are helping with...
<ax562> is there a way to copy a string of chars to vbox from running os?
<knome> you should be able to do that once you install the guest additions to vbox
<ax562> knome under <devices there is a clipboard option which allows you bidirectional copy/pasting etc
<ax562> didn't know that existed
<ax562> just filed another bug :p
<ax562> actually that biderectional clipboard didn't work for some reason
#xubuntu-devel 2016-07-15
<Unit193> flocculant: You tried Yuk in Vbox lately?
<flocculant> Unit193: I don't use vbox anymore - got fed up with it 
<Unit193> Heh.
<bluesabre> flocculant: so, what are you using these days?
<flocculant> kvm stuffs
<flocculant> bluesabre: ^^
<flocculant> kvm from commandline and the virtual manager thingy as well
<flocculant> bluesabre: basically got fed up with vbox and images never playing nicely together
<flocculant> so gave up 
<flocculant> bbl
<Unit193> flocculant: FWIW, -core crapped out when first loading the interface, restarting lightdm fixes it.
<flocculant> Unit193: okey doke
<Unit193> Ah, good news.  Xubuntu proper is broken too. :P
<flocculant> not looked today
<Unit193> vbox issue I'm sure.
<flocculant> oh right 
<flocculant> 2 ticks and I'll see :)
<flocculant> Unit193: so install from the debian menu thing hangs 
<flocculant> installing now
<Unit193> flocculant: https://sigma.unit193.net/~unit193/8bitxubuntu.png this isn't supposed to look like that!
<flocculant> had that before on vbox
<Unit193> Guess it just wants to play donky kong..
<flocculant> lol
<Unit193> Anyway, my point being that Core isn't broken, ENOTMYFAULT. \o/
<flocculant> Unit193: so is that after reboot? 
<Unit193> flocculant: I doubt it, vbox yuk VM is fine and just restarting lightdm does fix it.
<flocculant> ...
<flocculant> reboot after installing? 
<flocculant> and you talking about 16.04 or 16.10? 
<Unit193> 16.10, yuk.
<flocculant> k
<Unit193> (I have no interest in 16.04, at least won't be poking you about it.)
<flocculant> :)
<flocculant> Unit193: you can put that down to vbox probably - not seeing that here
<Unit193> Installing now from the desktop, I presume it'll work fine.
<flocculant> I'd guess so
<Unit193> The heck?!
<Unit193> That is, Debian #831421.
<ubottu> Debian bug 831421 in wnpp "RFP: xubuntu-artwork -- Xubuntu themes and artwork" [Wishlist,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/831421
<Unit193> flocculant: And yeah, no issues as expected.
<knome> Unit193, what we probably should do is to reply to the bug saying we're actually working to strip any xubuntu-specific stuff out of the themes, and that debian should rather package the package(s) that is the outcome of that work
<knome> (and that help is welcome)
<knome> Unit193, any chance you could pass on the message?
<Unit193> Would there actually be a proper upstream from this with tags and everything?
<knome> that's a good question.
<knome> shimmer project could act as one, as the icon theme essentially is put up by us
<knome> if the packaging people of shimmer project (read: Unit193, bluesabre) would be willing to take the extra load.
<knome> i believe at least bluesabre has been discussing this before
<knome> ^ all this is also some help for xubuntu derivatives, as when it's done, the list of packages they need to remove/change is even shorter
<Unit193> I split out the elementary stuff as part of a personal project and pinged the two other shimmer people, it was put off until this cycle.
<knome> yeah, i know it's been postponed
<Unit193> And more than just Xubuntu.
<knome> but yes, i agree with that direction; there is no reason to force xubuntu-related stuff in this icon theme
<Unit193> Aha, it's still in /source/
<knome> mhm
<Unit193> Still need to get him to review it though.
<knome> yes, sure, it'll be some work until it's okay, but re: that bug, they just shouldn't do that.
<knome> the other question is our wallpapers
<Unit193> That's in src:shimmer-themes, IIRC.
<knome> if somebody wants to use them outside ubuntu, and wants to have a package, i'm kind of open for that too.
<knome> might be
<knome> if so, then no worries.
<knome> well,
<knome> just src
 * knome shrugs
<Unit193> The themes are "maintained" in Debian already, all except Numix but that's getting packaged properly by itself.
<knome> yap
<knome> and isn't numix kind of floating away from shimmer-maintainment anyway?
<Unit193> As far as upstream, long ago.  As far as in Ubuntu?  Yes.
<knome> :)
<Unit193> Debian #827792
<ubottu> Debian bug 827792 in wnpp "ITP: numix-gtk-theme -- modern flat theme from the Numix project" [Wishlist,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/827792
<Unit193> !info numix-icon-theme unstable
<ubottu> numix-icon-theme (source: numix-icon-theme): modern icon theme from the Numix project. In component main, is optional. Version 0~20160619.217701b-1 (unstable), package size 3283 kB, installed size 103693 kB
#xubuntu-devel 2016-07-16
<knome> slickymaster, don't know if you have had time to think aobut it, but if you have, what's the plan re: improving docs for 18.04
<knome> slickymaster, i'm thinking about the potential new chapters/issues we want to cover, eg. adding instead of adapting
<slickymaster> tbh I haven't think about it knome 
<knome> slickymaster, or if we want something else changed that is just not making sure we're up-to-date
<slickymaster> the later goes without saying knome 
<knome> yeah, of course we will keep the stuff up-to-date
<slickymaster> the former is something I'd see with good eyes
<knome> and related to that, i don't think we should write much new documentation that needs such maintaining
<knome> eg. rather focus on "guide" style stuff than documentation on how to use feature X/Y
<slickymaster> agree
<knome> (and if upstream is bad with those, we can also focus on improving the upstream documentation before 18.04)
<knome> so we don't have much of that "how xubuntu works" kind of stuff
<knome> though we might also want to save that for the blog
<knome> one direction for figuring out what we'd need to document is go through ubottu's factoids
<slickymaster> we've not been doing much of how xubuntu works, that's a fact
<slickymaster> and that's something users always find usefull
<knome> well for a good reason too - we've had hands full of stuff with more important things
<slickymaster> what do you mean with going through the ubottu's factoids
<slickymaster> see what is been asked the most on IRC?
<knome> !panel
<knome> !panels
<ubottu> To reset the GNOME panel to defaults, type this in a !terminal: Â« gconftool --recursive-unset /apps/panel && killall gnome-panel Â»
<knome> !panels-#xubuntu
<ubottu> Did your panels disappear? Press alt+f2 and run: xfce4-panel | See also: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/XubuntuPanels
<knome> ^ sth like that
<slickymaster> yeah, what I thought
<Unit193> FAQ-ish stuff.
<knome> so basically move content that is very relevant to xubuntu documentation that is outside of it currently
<slickymaster> you're the right person to clect that data, Unit193 
<slickymaster> * colect
<Unit193> Oh?
<knome> Unit193, kind of, could be even a FAQ section
<Unit193> slickymaster: collect.
<knome> no, he means you're a cleptomaniac.
<knome> and that he has problems with stuttering.
<slickymaster> yeah, I have one eye in the TV set, seeing today's stage and the other in the keyboard
#xubuntu-devel 2016-07-17
<flocculant> the trouble with having 'support' stuff at a blog is why should someone have to go to 2 places? 
<flocculant> depends what you anticipate being not in docs - but how would you get that so people can read it offline
<knome> flocculant, the content i was thinking about is more of a "deeper insight to xubuntu" -like
<knome> not a support question purely
<flocculant> ok - wasn't sure from reading backlog 
<knome> of course anything that answers technical questions should be in the docs...
<knome> yeah, could have been less ambiguous
<knome> i guess in a way a bit similar than the small details article
<flocculant> right
<knome> not that tiny bits, but explaining things on a larger scale
<knome> i guess i should try to give an example :P
<flocculant> not really necessary :)
<knome> oki :P
<knome> but yeah, it's not clear in my mind either
<flocculant> I'll let you off of that hook :p
<knome> i mean i was thinking something like explaining the different themes
<flocculant> just so long as it's not a wholesale destruction of docs :D
<knome> and how they work (or don't) together
<knome> and could be something about gtk2/gtk3/qt
<flocculant> right
<flocculant> that makes sense then :)
<knome> so once you've read "this is how you change your GTK, WM and icon theme"
<knome> you might want to read why there are different kind of themes..
<knome> or types
<flocculant> you then need to read the 'why qt screws things up, and how to make it a bit better' :p
<flocculant> though it doesn't now afaik
<knome> can do that
<knome> and i don't think THAT really belongs to the docs anyway...
<flocculant> I'd agree
<flocculant> imo docs should only cover what we supply 
<knome> that, and the scope should stay technical
<bluesabre> knome, Unit193: from what I've seen, other themes have multiple distributor logos and the ideal one for the desktop is symlinked
<knome> right, that's one possibility
<knome> otoh, we could have a xfce specific logo as the distributor for upstream
<knome> as it's a theme specifically targeted at xfce users
<knome> (hence the name and all)
<bluesabre> yup
<knome> anyway, i got to run pretty much
<knome> will be back later today
<knome> hf
<bluesabre> have fun pretty much running (walking briskly?)
#xubuntu-devel 2017-07-10
<Unit193> Once LP picks it up, I'll force sync.
<geniek> Yeah, Dev (Mtn Dew + Doritos = MLG)
<slickymaster> !team | Meeting in 30 minutes
<ubottu> Meeting in 30 minutes: team is akxwi-dave, bluesabre, dkessel, flocculant, jjfrv8, knome, krytarik, ochosi, pleia2, slickymaster and Unit193
<flocculant> might hamg about
<slickymaster> :)
<slickymaster> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Jul 10 22:00:08 2017 UTC.  The chair is slickymaster. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<slickymaster> Welcome all to the Xubuntu community meeting. The agenda is available at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings
<slickymaster> Who's here for the meeting?
<flocculant> o/
<flocculant> waiting long?
<slickymaster> 4 more minutes flocculant 
<slickymaster> and I'll pass the testimony along
<slickymaster> won't reschedule a third one
<flocculant> yup
<pleia2> o/
<slickymaster> clearly I'm not setting it up to a proper hour
<slickymaster> hey pleia2 
<slickymaster> welcome
<flocculant> slickymaster: there never is a proper hour
<pleia2> it is pretty late for europe people
<slickymaster> yeaps
<slickymaster> do you think that it's an acceptable quorum
<slickymaster> the three of us
<slickymaster> ?
<flocculant> don't need quorum :)
<flocculant> seems a bit pointless though
<slickymaster> yes
<pleia2> yeah, I don't have updates on any of my things
<slickymaster> that's my main worry
<slickymaster> ok, pleia2 
<flocculant> about the only thing we need to note is
<slickymaster> next one will be up to you
 * slickymaster won't reschedule a third one
<flocculant> yakkety is EOL this week
<flocculant> so support should end - eg help
<slickymaster> yes, at least that will go on record
<slickymaster> anything else, flocculant 
<slickymaster> ?
<flocculant> nah
<flocculant> nothing important
<flocculant> time to do a zebedee :)
<slickymaster> being so, and due to the lack of attendees I'm ending the meeting
<slickymaster> #action pleia2 to schedule next meeting
<meetingology> ACTION: pleia2 to schedule next meeting
<slickymaster> #endmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Jul 10 22:13:56 2017 UTC.  
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2017/xubuntu-devel.2017-07-10-22.00.moin.txt
<flocculant> thanks for trying slickymaster 
<flocculant> night both :)
<Unit193> gtk-theme-config uploaded to Debian and sync'd, new versions of parole, libxfce4ui, and thunar made it in experimental too.
<slickymaster> thanks to both for showing up
<pleia2> D:
<slickymaster> gave a good one flocculant 
<slickymaster> s/gave/have
<ochosi> nooooo
<ochosi> missed the meeting :'(
<slickymaster> minutes are up
<slickymaster> hi ochosi 
<slickymaster> almost everyone missed :P
<ochosi> yeah
<ochosi> the backlog was easy to read
<slickymaster> lol
<bluesabre> evening all
<bluesabre> my ride situation was unexpected today, just now got home
#xubuntu-devel 2017-07-11
<Unit193> Hrm, unfortunate.
<bluesabre> not a lot new though, xfce releases and menulibre development in the background
<bluesabre> Something we need to look at https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-mate-settings/+bug/1703116
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1703116 in xubuntu-default-settings (Ubuntu) "Include Onboard overrides" [Medium,New]
<Unit193> Not really sure if we do need to...
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xubuntu-artwork:: [greybird] r520 Make sure buttonboxes in CSD dialogs dont have padding (fixe... (by Simon SteinbeiÃ)
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: exo 0.11.4 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-exo-0-11-4-released-tp49530.html (by Sean Davis-6)
<flocculant> knome: some messages in dev queue I left - probably not spam - but no idea how they got to us
<knome> flocculant, ahha, will check when home later today
<Unit193> flocculant: Not spam, certainly good to see, and I can say it's only partially my fault. :D
<flocculant> I did wonder :D
<Unit193> For some reason, the package is set to Xubuntu developers <ml> as the maintainer..
<flocculant> I assume you approved them then
<Unit193> No, I didn't.  Not entirely sure anyone but me and bluesabre need to see them.  I would have accepted 'ACCEPTED' and 'Bug#791548: marked as done' only anyway.
<flocculant> mmk
<Unit193> Figured I'd leave it to a list admin to decide. :3
<knome> Unit193, maybe we can change the maintainer? :P
<Unit193> To?
<knome> dunno. we could figure something out.
<Unit193> Going to ACK them?  I mean it does make sense, it's an Xubuntu-as-upstream, and that is the development list. :>
<knome> i'll hack on stuff today, and i'll also take care of the mod stuff
<knome> laptopping on summer cottage didn't go as planned
<knome> i didn't really get anything done and then i dreamt about ants building a nest on my laptop and it rotting
<knome> no more laptopping on the summer cottage :P
<Unit193> Hah.
<Unit193> "We" need to put a little more text in the description anyway. :/
<knome> for what?
<Unit193> gtk-theme-config.
<knome> ahha.
<knome> what's the description now?
<Unit193> Change some basic elements of a GTK+ theme easily (both GTK2 and GTK3) with a simple interface.
<flocculant> "this app kills .gtkrc-2.0 "
<Unit193> flocculant: Fixed!
<Unit193> I have a message to send you to prove it! :P
<flocculant> I thought that was the description :D
<knome> Unit193, Customize the colors of your GTK theme easily with a simple interface. Change the background and text colors for highlights, panel and menu separately. Works with both GTK2 and GTK3.
<Unit193> That'd do it.
<knome> then use it :)
<Unit193> http://paste.openstack.org/show/22SgVD8FinnUfoqgyDjT
<knome> thanks
<Unit193> knome: I could ACK for you, then.
<knome> ack what?
#xubuntu-devel 2017-07-12
<acheronuk> interesting http://freegeekchicago.org/buy
<acheronuk> "All FreeGeek Chicago systems are pre-installed with either Xubuntu or Kubuntu, with both being fast, simple, and beautiful desktop operating systems."
<knome> acheronuk, you can read more about that on https://xubuntu.org/news/xubuntu-at-freegeek-chicago/
<acheronuk> knome: :)
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xubuntu-artwork:: [greybird] r521 Fix background color in entries with warning style... (by Simon SteinbeiÃ)
<Unit193> garcon and xfconf made it out of NEW.
#xubuntu-devel 2017-07-13
<Unit193> garcon auto-sync'd to Xubuntu.
<flocculant> bluesabre: tested for 17.04 on a vm - sru is released now
#xubuntu-devel 2017-07-14
<flocculant> bluesabre: are we intending to tell users 16.10 is EOL next week?
<knome> hmm.
<knome> thanks for the information, i need to upgrade my laptop :P
<knome> apparently xubuntu.org considers 16.10 EOL already
<knome> since yesterday
 * knome extended by a week
<knome> bbl
<flocculant> knome: I think it got extended - the date on dev.xo came from motd when I put that there
<knome> flocculant, no worries :)
<flocculant> guessing we should alert users - now rather than when the repos dry up :D
<knome> yup
<flocculant> we're a bit hit and miss at that :p
<knome> indeed
#xubuntu-devel 2017-07-15
<bluesabre> evening all
<bluesabre> flocculant: yes, notifying users seems like a friendly move
<Unit193> bluesabre!  My good Xubuntu dev friend!
<bluesabre> Unit193!
<bluesabre> I'm going to bed... I'll chat with you tomorrow :D
<bluesabre> Unit193: ol' buddy, ol' pal, good morning!
<knome> fishy
<bluesabre> :D
<Unit193> Howdy.
<bluesabre> Howdy.
<Unit193> bluesabre: What's up, doc?
<bluesabre> Unit193: not much, just bumming around on the internet
<Unit193> At 6:30am on a Saturday, OK. :P
<flocculant> done facebook and users list re 16.10 eol
<flocculant> knome pleia2 - could you do the other 2 social things for us :)
<knome> can do later when home
<flocculant> ta
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xubuntu-artwork:: [greybird] r522 Fix readability of suggested-action (aka "default") buttons... (by Simon SteinbeiÃ)
<knome> flocculant, tweeted
<knome> need pleia2 to g+
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: xfce4-terminal 0.8.6 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-xfce4-terminal-0-8-6-released-tp49543.html (by Igor Zakharov)
#xubuntu-devel 2017-07-16
<ochosi> hey everyone, i pushed a new branch to greybird making the client side decorations slimmer
<ochosi> i'm happy to get some feedback whether this looks too compressed or whether that's a welcome change
<kafran> Hello fellows. I installed the XFWM 4.13 on Zesty from the GTK3 PPA, for testing the new VSync feature. But it doesn't seems to be working. Actually, the option to "Synchronize to vertical blank" on the Compositor settings vanished. Is there any thing special I should do? Or should I report a bug?
<ninetls> kafran: try to launch it with XFWM4_USE_PRESENT=1
<kafran> ninetls, is this an environment variable?
<ninetls> kafran: yes
<kafran> ninetls, I did not get it
<kafran> ninetls, ok. I set the variable and then call xfwm4 --replace ?
<ninetls> yes, try it. `XFWM4_USE_PRESENT=1 xfwm4 --replace`
<kafran> (xfwm4:3935): xfwm4-WARNING **: GL not available
<kafran> (xfwm4:3935): xfwm4-WARNING **: Dismissing XPresent as unusable, error 3 for request 148
<kafran> hmmn, maybe this is something
<ninetls> well, there are some problems with xpresent, it doesn't work for everyone
<kafran> ninetls, but it should be reallying on opengl now, no?
<ninetls> kafran: I heard something about it but didn't tried
<ninetls> I use xpresent since Olivier told it's better and xpresent works for me
<kafran> ninetls, are you on xubuntu 17.04?
<ninetls> kafran: no, I'm arch user
<kafran> I think this is the problem, the version of xpresent lib xubuntu 17.04 delivers
<ninetls> the problem isn't in xpresent version. the problem may be in xorg version or in your video driver
<ninetls> afaik present extension is designed to use with dri3
<ninetls> so maybe your video driver should be configured for this
<kafran> ninetls, I'm on Intel hardware
<kafran> I using the modesetting driver
<kafran> ninetls, I installed the intel driver and configured it to DRI 3; still not working
<kafran> Well, I give up xD
<ninetls> kafran: actually I don't know how to configure it as guaranteed
<ninetls> Olivier told that on some distros xorg is a bit outdated and doesn't support present well
<ninetls> it also can be a hardware problem
<kafran> I wish I had time to arch; it seems to be a good distro
<Unit193> knome: Would actually make sense to change the help channel in the different translations.
<knome> maybe
#xubuntu-devel 2018-07-09
<bluesabre> Unit193: It looks like this never got uploaded to bionic-proposed... Can you confirm? https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gvfs/+bug/1762595
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1762595 in gvfs (Ubuntu Bionic) "Thunar incorrectly thinks USB storage device hasn't finished ejecting" [High,Fix committed]
<Unit193> bluesabre: Yep, as I'm sure you've noticed by now.  (https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gvfs/1.36.1-0ubuntu1.1)
<bluesabre> Unit193: oh goodie
<Unit193> xfconf 4.13.5-1 uploaded to experimental by Yves-Alexis Perez (corsac)
<Unit193> exo 0.12.2-1 uploaded by Yves-Alexis Perez (corsac)
<Unit193> xfce4-settings 4.13.4-1 uploaded to experimental by Yves-Alexis Perez (corsac)
<Unit193> xfdesktop4 4.13.2-1 uploaded to experimental by Yves-Alexis Perez (corsac)
<Unit193> xfce4-settings 4.12.4-1 uploaded by Yves-Alexis Perez (corsac)
<Unit193> libxfce4util 4.13.2-1 uploaded to experimental by Yves-Alexis Perez (corsac)
<bluesabre> flocculant: planning to submit Bionic SRU paperwork for xfce4-settings 4.12.4 and exo 0.12.2
<bluesabre> flocculant: xfce4-settings 4.12.4, https://pad.ubuntu.com/RZwmpcDpiO
<bluesabre> flocculant: exo 012.2, https://pad.ubuntu.com/bcMUKPokgJ
#xubuntu-devel 2018-07-10
<flocculant> bluesabre: ok - bit close time wise perhaps :p
<flocculant> chnaged the thunar sru tag to verification done
<flocculant> bluesabre: so ... I hesitate to say this, but I will anyway :p What's happening with Core now?
<bluesabre> flocculant: need to poke infinity again... he said he would review the patches
<bluesabre> sru bugs tracked at
<bluesabre> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xfce4-settings/+bug/1780933
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1780933 in xfce4-settings (Ubuntu Bionic) "[SRU] xfce4-settings 4.12.4, New upstream microrelease" [Undecided,In progress]
<bluesabre> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/exo/+bug/1767326
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1767326 in exo (Ubuntu Bionic) "[SRU] Giant icons in Preferred Applications with some icon sets" [Undecided,In progress]
<bluesabre> will probably have one other SRU in a few days, with the upcoming catfish release 1.4.6 (https://git.xfce.org/apps/catfish/tree/ChangeLog)
<bluesabre> Trying to do a better job of LTS support :)
<ochosi> bluesabre: awesome, much appreciated!
<bluesabre> ochosi: do you want to start the xfpanel-switch migration?
<flocculant> bluesabre: ok - thanks (re core)
<flocculant> also thanks for foing the sru's :)
<flocculant> bluesabre ochosi - seen this one bug 1750465
<ubottu> bug 1750465 in ubuntu-mate-artwork (Ubuntu Xenial) "upgrade attempting to process triggers out of order (package plymouth-theme-ubuntu-text 0.9.2-3ubuntu17 failed to install/upgrade: dependency problems - leaving triggers unprocessed)" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1750465
<flocculant> none of the affects list us specifically - but skellat reported issue in the first place ( Failure during upgrade attempt from Xubuntu 17.10 to Xubuntu 18.04)
#xubuntu-devel 2018-07-11
<bluesabre> flocculant: I know nothing about that bug
<ochosi> bluesabre: you mean to xfce git? i can try to start that tonight
<Spass> hi, did recent updates in 18.04 changed something with a default NumLock behavior? now NL is auto-enabled on my login screen and my laptop keyboard doesn't like it (numpad on letter keys) so I always need to disable it, or maybe I accidentally changed something in my settings?
<Spass> I remember reading some advice here (or on #x) about changing something in a config file, but I can't find it now :/
<Spass> ok, I think I found it, /etc/default/numlockx is probably what I want
<Spass> weird, it's on "auto" so "turns numlock on unless ran on laptop"
<Spass> it looks like after some recent update(s) it doesn't recognize that I'm on a laptop
<Spass> sorry guys, I shouldn't spam that here on devel...
<Unit193> Spass: Yes, numlockx is new.  Do you have laptop-detect?
<Spass> 1sec, I need to boot my laptop
<Spass> yes, I have that package installed, but... this time NumLcok was disabled on boot, not sure why it works fine now, I remember i changed one settings in the xfce4-keyboard-settings
<Spass> sp maybe that was it, not sure how it is in English, but something like "Restore numpad state after start"
<Unit193> Just to make sure, can you run: laptop-detect ;echo $?
<Spass> it returns "$" seems like I was to quick with that issue, it just seems that rebooting it couple times fixed it
<Spass> so maybe it was "broken" just the first time after the update, and after reboot it detected my machine as laptop correctly again, don't really know
<Spass> but yeah... [solved]
<Spass> ok, rebooted my laptop couple times with NumLock on and off upon shutdown, can confirm 100%, this was a one time issue, sorry for the noise
<krytarik> Spass: The question mark was supposed to be part of the command btw. :P
<Spass> oh... :)
<Spass> well, that means I really need some sleep, g'night all
<Unit193> Yes, thanks krytarik
<krytarik> Sure, and I still blame you on this. :P
#xubuntu-devel 2018-07-12
<Spass> ok, today I have the issue with the NumLock enabled again, I ran "laptop-detect ;echo $?" and I've got "0" in response
<Spass> and I think I know why, yesterday I was testing it on on the battery, and it was all fine
<Spass> today my AC adapter is plugged in
<Spass> maybe that is the issue here
<Spass> and I have my mouse plugged in today, maybe that's important too
<Unit193> A return code of 0 means it is a laptop/netbook/mobile.
<Spass> hmm, in that case that numlockx behaviour is random
<Spass> no idea why suddenly today it was enabled on my login screen, yesterday I was rebooting like 4 times and it was ok
<Unit193> I presume you have modified nothing in /etc/default/numlockx?
<Spass> nothing, I left it is it was, auto
<Spass> brb, will reboot again
<Spass> did some tests, many reboots, and - my mouse is the culprit
<Unit193> ...Your mouse?
<Spass> when it's plugged in on boot I have NumLock enabled
<Spass> when I unplug it and reboot, it's all ok
<Unit193> Ooooooh.
<Unit193> I thought I saw some sort of mouse code in there somewhere.
<Spass> it's a mouse from my desktop, maybe my Dell knows... ;)
<Spass> smart machine
<Spass> anyway, yeah, that's why it was working yesterday and before
<Spass> still, if it detects that I'm on a laptop correctly, why NL is on? my mouse shouldn't be a factor here
<Spass> a bug maybe?
<Spass> should I test with other mouse?
<flocculant> iirc - if AC it numlock's on
<flocculant> ochosi: default panel when you first start up - and have no windows or anything open looks rather bizarre - we have a visible seperator right next to whiskermenu
<flocculant> https://i.imgur.com/QdFcEOT.png
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::platform:: Remove ureadahead from standard seed @ http://git.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-dev/ubuntu-seeds/+git/platform/commit/?id=f4daec09614e6c622dbd80da6358b49cd1d232ee (by Julian Andres Klode)
<ochosi> flocculant: yeah, the separator is a matter of configuration though
<ochosi> it used to be practically invisible in gtk2, which was not really a good thing tbh
<ochosi> so i fixed it in the code
<ochosi> but you can make the separator go away by deactivating the "show handle" setting in the window list
<ochosi> if you still want some invisible space in between, you can add an invisible separator
<ochosi> maybe something to discuss with bluesabre for the default panel layout
<flocculant> ochosi: ack - I'm just talking about our default here - any seperators I've got only exist in my head :)
<flocculant> just think it looks a tad bizarre when empty :)
<ochosi> ppl will get used to it ;)
<flocculant> heh
<ochosi> also, i could tone it down more in greybird
<ochosi> but imo it's supposed to be visible
<ochosi> at least if enabled
<ochosi> otherwise what's the point
<flocculant> ftr - I'm totally for us making them more visible than the old gtk2 style
<flocculant> and yea would agree your last point too
<ochosi> kk good
 * flocculant wanders off again 
<flocculant> back a bit more over the next few days - then invisible for a week 
<flocculant> week after I'm back we have 18.04.1 and then 16.04.5 in concurrent weeks
<Spass> flocculant, in my case AC didn't matter, just the mouse plugged in or not
<krytarik> Spass: https://sources.debian.org/src/numlockx/1.2-7.1/debian/55numlockx/#L30 - run the command in backticks there to see if your mouse identifies itself as a keyboard instead.  Also, what is it exactly?
<Spass> krytarik, ok 1 sec, need to boot my laptop, my mouse is Logitech G700, right now I run it wired with no batteries
<bluesabre> ochosi, flocculant, cool with dropping the handle and adding an invisible separator
<Spass_> krytarik, is that enough to tell something? https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/xtbN9yWV6q/
<krytarik> Spass_: And what is the output of "evtest"?
<Spass_> krytarik, https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/WMCfpn4jyp/
<Spass_> you know what? I think I know what can cause that... that mouse has built in button profiles and my current profile has some of the buttons assigned to some media keys
<Spass_> like XF86AudioLowerVolume and XF86AudioMute
<Spass_> so maybe my system thinks it's some kind of mouse / keyboard hybrid
<Spass_> yeah... that could be it, I need to test it more tomorrow, in that case I'd probably need to live with it forever, no way any dev will try to fix that corner case issue
<Spass_> or my profile doesn't even matter here, just look at those "supported events" :) https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/5ySCPGcnQR/
<krytarik> "udevadm info --query=all --name=input/event7" - for completeness.  And I would think 'ID_INPUT_KEYBOARD' is independent from whether or not any of those extra buttons are actually assigned to any keys.
<Spass_> yup, =1 :/ https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/SJf3YFsF3Q/
<krytarik> And of course, you can always set it manually in '/etc/default/numlockx' then.
<Spass_> yeah, no other way around it, numlockx dev "probably" isn't interested in excluding every weird mouse model in the code
<Spass_> thank you very much krytarik for helping me investigate that issue
<krytarik> Sure. :)
<Spass_> NUMLOCK=off, will reboot and see
<Spass> yup, works as intended, no more issue and I've learned new things \o
<Spass> \o/ (that's what I wanted)
<krytarik> :D
#xubuntu-devel 2018-07-13
<ochosi> fyi i'll switch to cosmic today for my productive system
<ochosi> that'll be a good motivation to find and fix bugs ;)
<bluesabre> :)
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: xfce4-whiskermenu-plugin 2.2.1 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-xfce4-whiskermenu-plugin-2-2-1-released-tp51381.html (by Graeme Gott)
 * ochosi waves hello from cosmic
<ochosi> already found several things to update in the default panel config
<Unit193> ...Dare I ask? :3
<ochosi> sure, the "square" option in statusnotifier, indicator and systray
<ochosi> should improve the situation with bigger panel sizes
<Unit193> I'm not entirely sure I know what that does, doesn't seem to change anything for me.
<ochosi> if you have non-square icons, e.g. in systray, it will make sure it still behaves like a square
<ochosi> therefore the alignment of all those "status icons" remains consistent
<ochosi> with the indicators this problem is less pronounced than with systray
<Unit193> I see, is this just a thing with the gtk3 panel?
<ochosi> but it makes sense to enable the option in all of them, if at all
<ochosi> i'm not sure now, but i think we backported the square option to gtk2
<ochosi> but i may be wrong
<ochosi> (for systray)
<Unit193> I don't see it in systray, but doesn't *seem* to make a difference for sn.
<ochosi> https://i.imgur.com/QF2yQtV.png
<Unit193> Heh, yes I see the option, just not for notification area in gtk2 panel.
<ochosi> right, so we ended up not backporting it
<ochosi> now i need to fix the symbolic version of nm-applet...
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xubuntu-default-settings:: panel-config: Set the square-icons option to true @ http://git.launchpad.net/xubuntu-default-settings/commit/?id=c9bb58c4630ac22c9d31fda1611d7109e6a2d5fb (by Simon Steinbeiss)
<ochosi> since we use the "symbolic" option in statusnotifier
<Unit193> heh yeah I don't use symbolic because I like the other version of nm-applet. :)
<Unit193> bluesabre: https://git.xfce.org/apps/xfce4-terminal/tree/NEWS#n1 on the radar for SRU?  I only know of exo and IIRC -settings?
<ochosi> Unit193: no worries, i'll make them look consistent. good part is if you use a bright or dark theme it'll always look right
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: xfce4-mount-plugin 1.1.3 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-xfce4-mount-plugin-1-1-3-released-tp51383.html (by Fabian Nowak)
#xubuntu-devel 2018-07-14
<ochosi> bluesabre: how about exchanging the wallpaper to thr dev one in cosmic? currently we ship eith the one from bionic
<bluesabre> ochosi: indeed, I'll do that today
<bluesabre> Unit193: yes, I think we should likely SRU that as well
<Unit193> Yey!  But that also stinks, SRUs...  Remember that dh-autoreconf in bionic doesn't support Xfce.
<bluesabre> Fun!
<bluesabre> Always test build anyway though
<Unit193> Oh yes, didn't mean to imply you don't! :)
<bluesabre> :)
#xubuntu-devel 2018-07-15
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: catfish 1.4.6 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-catfish-1-4-6-released-tp51387.html (by Sean Davis-6)
<Spass> "Remember window size and position between sessions" thanks bluesabre :)
<Spass> I always had to make the window slightly bigger when opening Catfish, it was too small
<bluesabre> Spass: sure thing!
<Unit193> 776798 sounds fun.  Also, but we were in sync. :(
<Unit193> Debian 902378
<ubottu> Debian bug 902378 in mugshot "mugshot: fails to start: ImportError: No module named 'gi'" [Serious,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/902378
<bluesabre> why are they running 0.3.1 in sid? :D
<bluesabre> I'll take care of that today, most likely
<bluesabre> got a new catfish to package up after all
<Unit193> \o/
<Unit193> you in pkg-xfce yet, btw?
<bluesabre> I think so
<Spass> knome, that UnixStickers form of donation is no longer available, right? https://xubuntu.org/donations/
<knome> true.
<knome> page updated, thanks
<Spass> np, too bad, those stickers were pretty cool
<knome> and relatively affordable, but yeah
<bluesabre> Unit193: you around?
<Unit193> Not sure mentally?
<bluesabre> :
<bluesabre> D
<bluesabre> How do I update pristine-tar after debian/master and upstream have been updated?
<Unit193> pristine-tar commit ../catfish_8382894.9494021.orig.tar.zst
<bluesabre> assuming there is no zst file floating around...
<Unit193> zst is a compression thingy, s/zst/gz/
<bluesabre> ah, gotcha
<Unit193> zstandard vs gzip, perhaps not a usual example.
<bluesabre> Unit193: cool, think I got it
<bluesabre> the length of those numbers made me thing they were commit refs :D
<Unit193> OOoooooh, I was just bashing thingys.
<Unit193> I'm not sure if the version of pristine-tar/tar in bionic is good though.
<bluesabre> seems like it worked, https://salsa.debian.org/python-team/applications/catfish/commits/pristine-tar
#xubuntu-devel 2019-07-09
<knome> bluesabre, crazy idea that would take some effort: how could we offer the xfce defaults for xubuntu users -- in case they want them rather than the xubuntu stuff?
<knome> bluesabre, and i mean within a xubuntu session, not the xfce one
<knome> bluesabre, or is the latter simply the thing you need to do
<ochosi> i would say that's the essential difference between the two sessions, no?
<knome> ochosi, i guess... but what if the xubuntu defaults fall flat for somebody in some region? oh well
<bluesabre> knome: could provide some script to do it in xubuntu-default-settings
<bluesabre> thing about xfce is that once a property is set, it persists between session (xfce or xubuntu), so the only real way to do it would be some script that overwrites settings with a list of defaults
<bluesabre> and I think that would be quite a bit better than pointing to a wiki page or forum someplace since the setting versions would be tied to xubuntu releases 
<Unit193> "Perhaps we have should provide a way to use Xfce defaults?"  "We have the Xfce session." "Perhaps another way?" why?
<bluesabre> If you load the xubuntu session on first boot, you now have xubuntu defaults
<bluesabre> I don't think the Xfce session is an intentional feature
<bluesabre> Unless it is?
<bluesabre> More generally, there's also the issue of "I installed Xubuntu x release and upgraded to x+1, how do I get the new defaults without creating a new user?"
<bluesabre> Unless we're cool with wiki'ing a bunch of xfconf-query commands?
<brainwash> rm -r ~/.config/xfce4
<brainwash> ?
<bluesabre> Does a running xfconf not hold on to those/recreate them?
<brainwash> kill it, remove the config dir, restart it
<Unit193> Let it restart itself, it'll do that automagically. :P
<brainwash> probably best to do it during a relog
<Unit193> bluesabre: Oh right!  I was going to ask, xfce4-power-manager and xfce4-volumed run as daemons when launched, any reason why xfce4-screensaver shouldn't?
<bluesabre> Unit193: nope, I think it'd be good if it did
#xubuntu-devel 2019-07-10
<guiverc2> sorry qa-test of menu items (all items), i have parole playing music in background minimized.  if not running it loads on selecting on menu, if inactive window it becomes active, if minimized selecting it at menu does nothing; is this an issue?  (I'd suspect not ideal)
<guiverc2> 19.10 daily ^
<vinze> Hey all, long time no see (as in: more than half a decade...). I'm not sure who administers the xubuntu-devel mailinglist, but I just sent an email there that needs approval because I'm not a subscriber anymore - it's about transferring ownership of the Xubuntu subreddit.
<Unit193> vinze: Approved, as for team members, https://launchpad.net/~xubuntu-team
<Unit193> (Howdy!)
<vinze> Thanks Unit193!
<Unit193> No reddit account here, can't help you with that.
<vinze> Actually still quite a few people from way back when, that's good to see :)
<Unit193> I'd like to think I'm too new for that, but...I'm not. >_<
<vinze> Seven years is quite a time - far longer than I was involved, I think. I just checked that I unsubscribed from the mailinglist in 2013, but was probably inactive for a while before that
<Unit193> Nobody ever gave me a sock...
<knome> good old vinnl
<knome> pleia2, you on reddit?
<pleia2> knome: no, it's terrible
<pleia2> replied anyway
<flocculant> bluesabre: re screensaver - am I right in gathering that to not have it working - you have to enable it and then set when idle to off? 
<flocculant> that's how it seems to work
<flocculant> rather un-intuitive perhaps
<flocculant> bluesabre: oh - with light-locker - which I believe chucks you to vt9 or something - screen locks etc - got music playing - it's then not audible - if it's still going, it's on vt8 (I think)
<flocculant> I just accidentally locked - music still playing
<flocculant> not sure it'd be a bug per se - just maybe a thing that happens that people didn't get before
#xubuntu-devel 2019-07-11
<jphilipz> not sure if others are facing this running daily, but after the lock screen and screen saver kick in, i move my mouse or press a key and then the screen goes black, so i end up having to press Ctrl+Alt+f9 and then Ctrl+Alt+f8 to be able to see the login screen.
<jphilipz> bluesabre: is this possibly a problem with the screensaver code as this doesnt happen on 18.04
<guiverc2> jphilipz, i've a daily running on a box now, will have a look shortly (10-15 mins); could also try it on different box but that'd require longer..
<jphilipz> guiverc2: thanks
<jphilipz> its been bugging me for a while, but assumed it would be fixed with the latest round updates
<guiverc2> jphilipz, by default (live) lock screen was disabled (so selecting lock on menu did nothing until I enabled it), so could black screen be just the screensaver default to black-screen?
<jphilipz> guiverc2: yes black is the default screensaver. i changed it to something different and it still happens
<guiverc2> otherwise behavior on my box appears normal, but i'll keep going my 'testing'  (yeah I changed it to xfce/mice so I'm not confused)
<guiverc2> when i finish this test; I'll boot the 'live' on a different box & re-look at lock/screensaver for you, but likely won't be for ~30+ mins
<jphilipz> thanks
<guiverc2> jphilipz, sorry no issues on this box either (http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/milestones/404/builds/196132/testcases/1303/results will list the boxes used; j3400 & hp8200)  i could test on vaio too (horrid little netbook)
<guiverc2> jphilipz, fyi:  on vaio (now yesterday's 19.10 daily) i had no issues either with lock/screensaver
<bluesabre> jphilipz, guiverc2, light-locker was replaced with xfce4-screensaver recently on the daily images. If you're running an installed version from before a few days ago, you may have both light-locker and xfce4-screensaver installed. If you do, try uninstalling light-locker and rebooting.
<guiverc2> i was using daily 20190710 (yesterday's now) as the initial question mentioned "daily"
<guiverc2> (but thanks bluesabre)
<bluesabre> guiverc2: just thought I'd make sure, I've had people complain about the daily in the past under the assumption an updated install was equal to the daily :)
<guiverc2> thanks again; maybe that was what was meant - I sure didn't consider that as a possibility
<jphilipz> bluesabre, guiverc2: removal of light-locker solved it. so is not recommended that we install daily and run it as a daily driver?
<guiverc2> jphilipz, I am running 19.10 right now on an installed system.  Daily though refers to daily images that can be installed (for QA-test purposes) and for use, but they cease being a 'daily' after installation, but an installed 19.10 system.  You originally mentioned 'daily' in the first post I read & responded to (thus I assumed uninstalled or installed today)
<jphilipz> guiverc2: thanks for the explanation. i mentioned daily in the sense that it was updated to the latest available in the repo as of today
<guiverc2> which is what bluesabre suspected; I read it as the 'daily' image produced each day for qa-testing - ie. http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/milestones/404/builds/196185/downloads  (where it's called daily-live)
<guiverc2> sorry; because I do QA-testing using daily images; I jumped to conclusion in the term I see very often...
<jphilipz> no i'm sorry for not knowing the correct terms to use :D
<guiverc2> :)
<brainwash> bluesabre: what do you think about this? bug 1835668
<ubottu> bug 1835668 in xubuntu-meta (Ubuntu) "Locking screen on live system no longer possible with Xubuntu 18.10/19.04" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1835668
<brainwash> with xfce4-screensaver it could be re-enabled again I think
<brainwash> the user name does not need to be guessed
<brainwash> but the blank password may still irritate some people
<brainwash> ochosi: what is your opinion on adding more contrast to the tasklist buttons? https://paste.debian.net/1091247/
<guiverc2> brainwash on 20190710's 19.10 daily I can set a password (passwd), then lock at menu (after enabling lock) and it won't let me unlock until I enter password
<guiverc2> (i'm butting in I know, but I see no issue; I can respond with this info on bug you mentioned, though I don't have a 19.04 lying around to test on that version)
<brainwash> https://git.launchpad.net/xubuntu-default-settings/commit/?id=650fd90df8d1e3e7b15fd789907fa47e9e2f68e5
<brainwash> it can be enabled
<brainwash> the question is if it should be enabled without user interaction
<guiverc2> okay - I'd say leave it as it is myself; but let those that do the work decide (not me)
<brainwash> or, how confusing is a lock screen which asks the (live) user for a blank password?
<brainwash> previously, the user had to guess the user name ("xubuntu")
<guiverc2> that to me would be the more confusing; but you can't win anyway; users won't like the 'lock' not working (I thought it was a bug until I discovered I can enable it...)
<brainwash> maybe xfce4-screensaver could omit asking for the password in case it is not set
<guiverc2> sounds like you're making more work for yourself (or the team); but sounds great
<brainwash> maybe that is how it works already
<brainwash> I have not tested it :)
<brainwash> I think I remember that gnome-screensaver was behaving that way
<guiverc2> i have tested it; why I commented that I see no issue
<jphilipz> brainwash: blank password should be fine for most users, as they will try to click login without one if the dialog appears
<jphilipz> had a bad experience with linux lite that the blank password wasnt accepted - https://twitter.com/jphilipz/status/1145523352225878016
<jphilipz> though their forum clearly states there wasnt a password
<knome> pleia2, yeah...
<jphilipz> i tried an xfce based distro recently and when there was no password for the user, the password field was hidden
<jphilipz> it was Galore
<jphilipz> Galore is based of Xubuntu
<jphilipz> account with a password - http://i.imgur.com/WYcaays.png
<jphilipz> account with no password - http://i.imgur.com/rln4tIz.png
<RikMills> jphilipz: 2nd of those
<jphilipz> RikMills: thanks
<jphilipz> re-downloading 1.5gb regularly would be a waste :D
<jphilipz> RikMills: should i reinstall xubuntu each time i update the daily iso, as i was hoping to use it as a daily driver and get the updates through the software updater
<brainwash> jphilipz: why would you want to reinstall it all the time?
<jphilipz> brainwash: want to run the latest or is that not useful for QA testing
<brainwash> you can keep updating via software updater and test with newly created user accounts I guess
<brainwash> unneeded packages can be removed with apt autoremove
<brainwash> thinking of the light-locker case
<jphilipz> yes i was thinking that if software updater didnt fix the light-locker case, then i'm not really running the latest
<jphilipz> brainwash: maybe i mistook what you were saying. would apt autoremove have removed light-locker?
<flocculant> jphilipz: if you wanted to do it how I did for many years till I left the xubuntu team - run the 'whatever version we are expecting to release' as your daily machine (kept updated), download the actual daily iso and run it to test things you want to look at specifically - or know there is an issue with
<flocculant> which is pretty much how I left all the QA docs
<flocculant> also you could add the daily iso to your grub - in that case, zsync it - then reboot and run from grub - that's a bit better than running in a vm
<flocculant> I'm still floating about - just not official anymore - a ping or freenode message to me (or in fact an e-mail) and I'll answer questions
<flocculant> jphilipz: this is how I'd set up grub custom file > https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/J6m7M7Bqtw/
<flocculant> obviously change path to suit
<jphilipz> flocculant: sounds like a great idea, will try it
<jphilipz> what is the differences between the two grub entries?
<flocculant> jphilipz: if you've questions - ask them :D
<flocculant> one loads the iso to ram - one doesn't - at one point loading to ram meant you could install from it - then it stopped doing that, so I stopped too hence it being cosmic
<flocculant> and also last cycle I was moving on slowly so didn't do much 
<jphilipz> flocculant: do i need to uncomment the non-ram entry for it to get added?
<flocculant> if you use that - you need to uncomment stuff yea - other wise it won't - and change the path - and update update grub too once it's changed
<flocculant> I had a script I used to grab iso's with zsync then it copied the file to that location
<jphilipz> where do i put the bash script?
<flocculant> I had it in my home 
<flocculant> you want a copy of it?
<jphilipz> no the bash script you gave on paste.ubuntu.com
<flocculant> oh right - I had another one lol
<flocculant> that file already exists 
<flocculant> /etc/grub.d/40_custom
<flocculant> edit that as root 
<flocculant> then update grub
<jphilipz> thanks
<flocculant> np
<flocculant> if you want to automate zsync a bit - I can let you have that too
<jphilipz> okay thanks
<flocculant> is that a yes?
<flocculant> lol
<jphilipz> yes
<jphilipz> lol
<albinard> Problem about bug reporting, need some advice
<pleia2> ask away :)
<flocculant> jphilipz: you want me to annotate it a bit
<flocculant> albinard: indeed :D
<flocculant> hi pleia2 - I'm still about - just officially unofficial now lol
<jphilipz> flocculant: if its not to complicated, i think i could figure it out
<pleia2> o/ flocculant 
<pleia2> flocculant: it's like Hotel California over here ;)
<flocculant> jphilipz: okey doke - it does a bunch of stuff I used to want to know when I ran qa for us
<albinard> Just did a test install of Eoan ISO 0711: went okay up to first desktop appearance; file manager okay (read from USB and other partitions), but no menu at all available.
<flocculant> jphilipz: https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/9JcQTkcMfX/
<flocculant> albinard: ubuntu-bug thunar
<flocculant> pleia2: lol
<Alexdf> XFCE 4.14 pre2!
<Alexdf> https://simon.shimmerproject.org/2019/05/19/xfce-4-14pre1-released/
<Alexdf> https://simon.shimmerproject.org/2019/07/01/xfce-4-14pre2-released/
<Alexdf> I<3Xubuntu :D
<albinard> Out of my league here - what bug number to report?
<pleia2> as flocculant suggested, you run "ubuntu-bug thunar" and that walks you through the process of submitting the bug you found for the file manager (thunar)
<pleia2> then you use that bug number in the tracker
<albinard> Thanks! Did it and reported. Sorry to be a pain!
<flocculant> albinard: no worries - how else does one learn something :)
<jphilipz> might be good to have a text file on the live desktop on how to submit a bug
<flocculant> jphilipz: on all xubuntu test cases - there is a link that says link to bug reporting instructions ...
<flocculant> https://pasteboard.co/InvXKyM.png
<flocculant> the link you get pointed at is https://docs.xubuntu.org/contributors/qa-bugs.html
<jphilipz> flocculant: is this on the daily iso?
<flocculant> it's not on the iso - it's on the tracker
<jphilipz> having something on the iso for the random person who decides to try out the daily iso and has no knowledge of the QA procedures might be helpful
<flocculant> jphilipz: perhaps - but bugs should be reported on the tracker - which is where it tells people how to do it
<jphilipz> didnt follow 'which is where it tells people how to do it'
<flocculant> on the tracker
<flocculant> anyway - not much to do with me now - I'm just hanging about :)
<jphilipz> oh okay, maybe i'll propose it in an email to the team
<jphilipz> so now that you've left as lead QA, has someone replaced you?
<flocculant> nope
<flocculant> someone is needed
<jphilipz> what responsibilities and skills does a lead QA need
<flocculant> after 6 or 7 years doing it - you need to be able to herd cats
<flocculant> bluesabre: is probably the one to ask - team might be wanting to change things about
<flocculant> https://docs.xubuntu.org/contributors/qa.html
<flocculant> jphilipz: I'm off now - back in the morning fleetingly if you've questions
<jphilipz> flocculant: thanks for the help. have a good one
<albinard> Rebooted same test install, no other changes, now Whiskermenu responds, seems to work.  
<albinard> Reported that on QA and Launchpad, guess it is a non-bug or an erratic.
<albinard> Puzzled by the bug that vanished.
<Unit193> albinard: Right, so you remind me that I owe you an email.  For the time being there won't be any more Xubuntu Core as there's still that issue booting.
<albinard> No worries, no "owe" - but thanks for the update.  I suspect the bug I reported had something to do with xfce4-whiskermenu-plugin, because that was what didn't respond at the first time I booted the new ISO.  At the reboot, there it was , just fine.
<albinard> And seems to be running fine ever since.
#xubuntu-devel 2019-07-12
<ochosi> brainwash: that debian pastebin isnt there anymore
#xubuntu-devel 2019-07-13
<Unit193> https://packages.qa.debian.org/x/xfce4-dev-tools/news/20190713T111906Z.html - https://packages.qa.debian.org/g/garcon/news/20190713T114855Z.html - https://packages.qa.debian.org/x/xfce4-terminal/news/20190712T205938Z.html
<Unit193> xfce4-notifyd, datetime, and parole too.
<ochosi> kewl
#xubuntu-devel 2020-07-06
<Unit193> This is true.
<knome> right, so there is some software that allows you to do silly things if you are silly?
<Unit193> Surely.
<knome> eugh.
<knome> i guess it would be still worth the while to answer that poor guy
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- Reminder: Next meeting chair is knome
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xubuntu-default-settings:: Apply translations in sk @ https://github.com/Xubuntu/xubuntu-default-settings/commit/60a224e39f70dc7726358e89a53713d2a731e441 (by transifex-integration)
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xubuntu-default-settings:: Apply translations in sk @ https://github.com/Xubuntu/xubuntu-default-settings/commit/6f3a9dcf1e72e49ea461fae0a7a947c05fbdf1cb (by transifex-integration)
#xubuntu-devel 2020-07-07
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: xfce4-time-out-plugin 1.1.1 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-xfce4-time-out-plugin-1-1-1-released-tp59281.html (by Andre Miranda)
#xubuntu-devel 2020-07-08
<Unit193> Hey!  Guess who had xfce4-time-out-plugin all packaged up and testbuilt, then forgot about it!
<ochosi> Unit193: hah, nice
<ochosi> then i guess it won't be much work to "revive" it ;)
<Unit193> Yeah I already pushed it.
<Unit193> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xfce4-time-out-plugin/1.1.1-0ubuntu1 time vs time. :P
<jphilips> pleia2: which old screensaver was causing you issues?
<Unit193> I have no idea context, but that sounds like light-locker.
<Unit193> ...Dang, I need a clone of my own. >_>
<pleia2> jphilips: xfce4-screensaver
<jphilips> pleia2: xfce4-screensaver isn't the old screensaver
<jphilips> or were you using a different one
<pleia2> yes, upon closer inspection I was mistaken :)
<pleia2> I don't know how it got installed or when, but it wasn't playing nice with others
<jphilips> i think if you upgrade from 18.04, light-locker isn't automatically removed
<pleia2> I don't actually remember what precisely I changed and what was conflicting with what, but the point of my personal tweet to a friend wasn't filing a Xubuntu bug, it was sharing pain and offering some things he could try ;)
<Unit193> Ah, so I shouldn't start with trying to give options. :3
<pleia2> this install is so old I'm surprised I don't still have xscreensaver installed
<Unit193> That's one it sort of conflicts with a bit, yeah.
#xubuntu-devel 2020-07-09
<jphilips> bluesabre: reminder about the ML emails, scheduling the next meeting and my PRs in xubuntu-default-settings
<bluesabre> jphilips: thanks, I should be getting back on track now
<ali1234> i think there is something wrong with xfwm on 20.04
<ali1234> i am seeing delays of up to 5 seconds when focussing a window
<ali1234> the window just completely freezes. other windows unaffected
<ali1234> then once it gets focus it is fine
<ali1234> happens when the window has not been focussed for a long time
<ali1234> also the volume control pop up does it the first time i adjust volume after not doing so for a couple of hours
<ali1234> and that freezes the whole desktop if the compositor is enabled, because it is override redirect
<ali1234> anyone else seeing this?
<bluesabre> ali1234: first I've heard of it... have you pinged olivier about that already?
<ali1234> no
<Unit193> bluesabre: I'm going to confirm before I presume, no libxfce4ui-nocsd in the xubuntu-team PPAs, right?
<bluesabre> Unit193: if you or some users want it, that'd be alright... even gtk3-nocsd is managed by debian-xfce, right? :)
<Unit193> gtk3-nocsd is some other package maintained by somewone else somewhere. :P
<ali1234> before i installed 20.04 i was using a xfwm version that is newer than the one in 20.04... and it didn't have this problem
<ali1234> i guess i will try building it from source and see if it fixes it
<ali1234> as usual it takes several days before the bug starts happening. i think it is related to GPU memory fragmentation or something silly like that
<ali1234> happens quicker when i start running CUDA
<brainwash> ali1234: CPU usage stays normal?
<Unit193> I've noticed alt+tab and xfce4-panel are a lot slower with xfce 4.14, but..
<ali1234> no, xfwm CPU usage goes to 100%
<ali1234> until the window unfreezes
<ali1234> i think a kernel thread does too
<ali1234> could be a driver bug i guess
<brainwash> but isn't this covered by the existing report for xfwm4 4.14 + delays/slowness?
<ali1234> dont know, i havent seen that
<ali1234> this isn't general slowness, it's fine once it "wakes up". it's like the old days when your computer would swap everything out over night and then when you start using it in the morning it freezes for 10 seconds whenever you switch to a different window while it swaps it back in
<ali1234> but i run without swap so it isn't that
<brainwash> https://gitlab.xfce.org/xfce/xfwm4/-/issues/351
<ubot93> Issue 351 in xfce/xfwm4 "xfwm4 hanging and using too much cpu time" [Opened]
<ali1234> hmm i'll try the things mentioned there
<ali1234> it isn't exactly the same but may be related
<ali1234> it never freezes without reason, it is always when switching to a window that hasn't been active for a long time
<ali1234> commented on that bug, thanks
#xubuntu-devel 2020-07-10
<jphilips> is tab not working in x2go something we should likely fix from our end for our users? - https://x2go-user.x2go.narkive.com/SnfQqtDA/tab-not-working-in-x2go-from-osx
<jphilips> Unit193: if you add libxfce4ui-nocsd into the PPA, wouldn't the packages depending on libxfce4ui need to either depend on libxfce4ui-nocsd?
<jphilips> i was asking the dev about this in this issue - https://github.com/Xfce-Classic/libxfce4ui-nocsd/issues/1
<ubot93> Issue 1 in Xfce-Classic/libxfce4ui-nocsd "Distribution packaging dependencies" [Open]
<brainwash> jphilips: a deb package can specify "Provides"
<jphilips> brainwash: only a deb package newb, so can you give more info about this
<brainwash> jphilips: I would have to look it up also
<brainwash> I think it means that a package can "act" as another package
<brainwash> -> Provides: libxfce4ui
<jphilips> oh okay, so it provides libxfce4ui even though not named libxfce4ui
<brainwash> right
<brainwash> and it has to conflict with the actual libxfce4ui package
<brainwash> so that only one is installed
<jphilips> great such a feature is there, so no need to recompile the other packages
<jphilips> someone on the ML claimed there was a mining malware in the iso. presume this is bogus - https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/xubuntu-devel/2020-July/011997.html
<Unit193> jphilips: Not with how I packaged it, no.
<jphilips> ISOs are built off canonical infra, so i was doubtful that any malware could get on them
<Unit193> That is, I made them so they could co-exist as source packages, and it'd be a drop-in replacement.
#xubuntu-devel 2020-07-11
<jphilips> Unit193: any idea how often debian experimental gets refreshed as libxfce4ui 4.15.2 is 3 months old and 4.15.3 is a month old - https://gitlab.xfce.org/xfce/libxfce4ui/-/tags
<Unit193> https://packages.debian.org/source/experimental/libxfce4ui is the latest version in experimental.
<Unit193> As I'm sure you know, packages get packaged by people, so whenever they do it is when it gets done.  There's not much of a focus on 4.15 in Debian right now.
<Unit193> Developmental builds, that they are.
<jphilips> thanks for the info. presumed there might be some automated packaging that is setup in debian, but guess that's not the case.
<Unit193> libxfce4ui and xfce4-panel are the only 4.15 packages to make it in, even.
<jphilips> have others seen this before - https://github.com/themix-project/oomox
<jphilips> @bluesabre: ^^
<ochosi> we had something like this a while ago
<ochosi> even shipped it with xubuntu by default
<ochosi> but it became rather unmaintainable after a while
<ochosi> gtk3 theming changed too rapidly...
<jphilips> ochosi: any thoughts of shipping different greybird variants with xubuntu, so people have more options to customize the look, but still keep the overall greybird theme?
<ochosi> if someone else wants to do the work, why not
<ochosi> in the past we also maintained multiple themes (blackbird, bluebird, albatross) but it all become too much maintenance
<jphilips> yep was thinking to ship those
<jphilips> there were some other variants on xfce-look, that i thought about as well
<jphilips> https://www.xfce-look.org/p/1151106/
<jphilips> https://www.xfce-look.org/p/1016027/
<jphilips> if you think they are good enough variants
<ochosi> from my pov "just shipping" is not enough
<ochosi> i would only ship themes that someone in the team maintains
<ochosi> or can maintain
<jphilips> are there any others in the team who do themes?
<ochosi> otherwise you have to point people to xfce-look if they have issues with themes
<ochosi> nope, not really, which is why i cut my own work on themes down
<ochosi> the focus shifted to coding and fixing bugs
<ochosi> greenbird -> greybird-geeko
<jphilips> greybird-geeko only changes the blue highlight to green
<jphilips> the theme doesn't go beyond that from upstream greybird
<ochosi> not sure what greenbird does
<ochosi> in any case, i don't have time for theming atm..
<jphilips> of course
<jphilips> greenbird does make changes to the panel color and window borders, but there is definitely something broken about it - https://imgur.com/VGroHlR.png
<ochosi> hah, that means it doesn't support *your* version of gtk3 or something like that
<ochosi> so anyway, sounds like it's not a candidate for inclusion..? :)
#xubuntu-devel 2020-07-12
<jphilips> well if doesn't support the gtk3 version that xubuntu ships, it definitely can't be a candidate :D
<jphilips> is there a recommended way to handle optimus on xubuntu?
<bluesabre> jphilips: bumblebee, but I haven't used it for years
