#ubuntu-learning 2009-06-03
 * pleia2 pats ubuntulog 
<pleia2> yay :)
<pleia2> (I opened a ticket to get it a while ago)
<Yassine_Tn> I have Ubuntu desktop edition, and I need to run an OS without a graphical Interface (PC too old). Can I install Ubuntu Desktop edition and use it like the server edition ?
<pleia2> \o/
<jpds> I have done some sysadmin pokage.
<doctormo> o/
<pleia2> yeah, spads said he and elmo were working on it when I /msged
<jpds> Should be coming back now.
<doctormo> Hey jpds, how are you? I'm back in Boston today :-)
<jpds> doctormo: Not too bad, thanks.
<doctormo> hmm, no sign of Vantrax today, just when we need a talk :-D
<doctormo> pleia2: what was the result of the CC meeting?
<pleia2> doctormo: yesterday? green light from CC :)
<doctormo> great :-)
<pleia2> they like the project, think we're on the right track
<doctormo> Now we just gotta sort out this CC-NC problem, agh.
<pleia2> they got us our lists.ubuntu.com mailing list and the ubuntulog bot for the channel
 * pleia2 nods
<pleia2> that came up at the meeting too, but we moved along so not to bog down the meeting too much
<pleia2> greg-g is available to help out when we're ready to talk
<doctormo> pleia2: What was the general feeling of the Community Council about it?
<doctormo> Or should I say, what was their preference.
<pleia2> doctormo: very positive
<pleia2> and they were happy we came to present it to them, wished more teams would
<doctormo> pleia2: They approve strongly of the Non-Commercial clause? why?
<pleia2> ooh, that specifically?
<pleia2> no, NC got bogged down in the same thing as it always does, I think they don't want NC
<pleia2> but there is the whole issue with the canonical training materials being NC
<doctormo> Ah ok, that makes more sense.
<doctormo> Yes, we might have to be strict with that, I don't want deritivitive works that are all useless to the wider community.
<pleia2> agreed
<pleia2> there was also dicussion of the unclear licensing of the ubuntu wiki
<doctormo> That's not a good sign
<pleia2> I believe the CC is going to handle that and let us know
<doctormo> OK, well I don't believe they would add restrictive terms, so it's probably just a matter of publicity.
 * pleia2 nods
<Vantrax> Ello chums
<Vantrax> its so quiet today
<doctormo> Vantrax: Hi, not quiet, you weren't here when I was chatting before :-)
<Vantrax> ahh
 * Vantrax does the happy dance
<Vantrax> we have a proper mailing list
<doctormo> [11:14] <doctormo> We need to talk because NC is going to be poisonous for these learning materials and I'd like to be working on something open source, NC isn't even allowed by launchpad.
<doctormo> [11:14] <doctormo> I was trying to explain before why we should be specifically exluding sources that are too restrictive. including the canonical desktop training manual if they can't relisence.
<Vantrax> ahh
<Vantrax> this is a problem
<doctormo> indeed it is
<Vantrax> the CC is looking at this problem for the wiki at the moment too
<doctormo> I hope they fall on the none NC side too, NC is far too crazy and costly to manage and even from a technical stand point it's a mess.
<Vantrax> the big problem is the desktop training course is the perfect workbook for us, just in a bad format
<Vantrax> doctormo: we already have NC stuff, look at the moodle training courses
<doctormo> Vantrax: I'm calling on us to be firm on this, it's important for us to work in Open Source terms and the Desktop Training manual isn't.
<Vantrax> what we produce should be BY-SA
<doctormo> Vantrax: Why do we have NC stuff already?
<doctormo> I thought we'd talked about this?
<Vantrax> what we reuse is a little harder because it measn we have to generate more materials
<Vantrax> the how to moodle on the wiki right now is produced by a highschool as by-nc-sa
<doctormo> Vantrax: I agree, it is harder
<doctormo> But it's very important
<doctormo> If we can't get a relicense on the highschool course, then that's going to be a sticking point.
<pleia2> can we have different courses with different licenses depending on the source material?
<pleia2> I think having anything NC is unfortunate, and we will put warnings on it, but I think it might be a mistake to toss out those resources entirely
<doctormo> pleia2: Some of what we need to do may be education of upstream, most of the time NC is completly inapropriate and is just used because of fear.
<pleia2> doctormo: but if they won't budge (I don't think Canonical will budge on their training material), should we give up on using it at all?
<doctormo> pleia2: yes
<pleia2> I think as a general policy for the team it's good, but exceptions should be considered
<doctormo> It's unfortunate, but NC can be quite nasty, do we really want to work of holding NC works in a special pen so they don't start leaching into other materials?
<pleia2> fair point, probably not
<Vantrax> doctormo: +1
<Vantrax> this is why I like having you as part of this board
<doctormo> Vantrax: Your very own richard stallman... with better grooming habbits ;-)
<Vantrax> I think exceptions will be made, its a practical reality, but we need to be very careful about how its contained
<pleia2> Vantrax: +1
<Vantrax> the how to moodle is a great example, it s a complete self contained course clearly marked
<doctormo> Not that I wan't to be a stick in the mud, I'm just concerned with future growth and consistancy.
<Vantrax> doctormo: this is part of what needs to be sorted out by us, how the project will be implemented, grow, and be managed
<doctormo> Vantrax: I may be able to make an exception to the "how to moodle" with these additions: that it is very clearly marked and that we make a point of asking for a re-license.
<doctormo> We can't copy and paste from or use the how to moodle as a course template, for instance.
<Vantrax> that is fair enough, we can ask the same of dinda as well, but its unlikely to be granted
<Vantrax> no we cant, cp is ment to be working on a template
<pleia2> perhaps we can put together some kind of draft letter for these requests, outlining why NC is tricky?
<Vantrax> yes
<doctormo> That would be great.
<Vantrax> chief of which is NC is not defined
<doctormo> These people don't often expect to earn money from relicensing, they're just being human, fear.
<Vantrax> doctormo: can you work with gregg to draft that
<doctormo> Although our main point is "We're open source, NC isn't"
<Vantrax> you seem to be good with the putting words together thingy
<doctormo> Aye
<Vantrax> and can you throw that up on the tasks page too
<pleia2> which reminds me, these past couple weeks I've been following up with teams (it's been hard with UDS), talking to effie about loco teams stuff
<pleia2> mostly the teams are now pondering Classroom things until we can get them hooked up with Moodle, so essentially they're waiting on us
<doctormo> Done
<bodhi_zazen> OMG a conversation in this channel :)
<doctormo> bodhi_zazen: conversion?
<bodhi_zazen> sweet pleia2 :)
<Vantrax> i think we should take the current server link off the wiki page
<pleia2> why?
<Vantrax> we dont want people not involved going to it untill the theme is there at the very least
<Vantrax> it looks like crap atm >.<
<Vantrax> Id rather not have it there, then have people look at it before we make it pretty
<Vantrax> especially considering the wiki page will be linked in my post to planet.
<Vantrax> and to the news team/fridge
<pleia2> I dunno, I think transparency in this project is important, I'd rather not hide things from potential contributors
<pleia2> maybe someone who reads it will say "I am an expert moodle themer, can I help? :)
<Vantrax> that is true, but contributors will come to the irc channel
<Vantrax> or send a mail to the list
<Vantrax> at the same time other people could go see it and think the project is a joke because the server doesnt look like much (YET)
<pleia2> I would really rather not make it hard for people to see our resources or contribute, no matter what the state they're in
<Vantrax> im going to be spending a bit of time on dev for the theme this weekend
<Vantrax> hrm, maybe ill just delay the announcment till I finish the theme
<Vantrax> either way i need to be able to upload the theme to the test site bodhi_zazen
<Vantrax> oh, were being logged now?
 * Vantrax points to ubuntulog
<bodhi_zazen> Vantrax: do you have a ssh key ?
<bodhi_zazen> where does your theme go exactly ?
#ubuntu-learning 2009-06-04
<bodhi_zazen> you want to upload to the test site ?
<Vantrax> yeah, just the test site
<Vantrax> not the live one
 * Vantrax goes off to look for an ssh key
<JoshuaRL> Vantrax: NO! theyre dangerous ...
<Vantrax> but usefull:P just like guns
<JoshuaRL> Vantrax: that sounded downright american
<Vantrax> Im not american tho...
<JoshuaRL> then be careful
<doctormo> Vantrax: I think you should delay the announcement until the theme is done
<doctormo> btw, when do you want that theme?
<Vantrax> asap:P
<doctormo> I can do you stuff, but someone else will have to make it fit, I can't seem to get a test site working here
<doctormo> remind me of the domain name?
<pleia2> ufbt.net
<pleia2> er, learn.ufbt.net
<doctormo> ok, going to use styleist to make a theme for viewing
<Vantrax> doctormo: id like to see http://vl3.co.uk/moodle/?&theme=EduMoodle with the ubuntu color theme
<Vantrax> doctormo: option two is http://moodle.org/mod/data/view.php?d=26&rid=1641 with the ubuntu color theme, this one is probably a better option
<Vantrax> should be minor css hacks, and reworking the images to the right colors
<Vantrax> bodhi_zazen: whats with the channel...
<cprofitt> we have been taken over by channel snatchers
<bodhi_zazen> the channel is working fine Vantrax
<bodhi_zazen> we moved
<bodhi_zazen> I decided whey you were not looking
<Vantrax> to?
<pleia2> hehe
<cprofitt> you are there Vantrax ubuntu-beginners
<Vantrax> ahh
<Vantrax> i see
<Vantrax> booo
<bodhi_zazen> L M A O Vantrax
<Vantrax> im having a bad day....
<cprofitt> I understand...
<cprofitt> I am having issues with the display I set up...
<cprofitt> being anal sucks at times...
<cprofitt> the poster is about 1/32" off on one side... and I am having to hold myself back from trying to redo it...
<cprofitt> which could rip the poster
<doctormo> http://divajutta.com/doctormo/learning/title.png
<doctormo> I don't think I'm having a very productive evening, that's the best I could do for the moodle theme
<pleia2> hm, we should schedule our next meeting
<doctormo> Good day all
<pleia2> hey doctormo
<pleia2> I think we need a team meeting, thoughts?
<doctormo> I think so, this would be about the copyright stuff right?
<pleia2> yep
<pleia2> and aside from this and moodle theme, I think it would help us to have a clear picture of exactly what needs to be done to start course creation
<doctormo> ok
<txwikinger_work> copyright?
<pleia2> oh, and we need to nudge Vantrax to share the ML password
<pleia2> txwikinger_work: course licensing
<txwikinger_work> Ah
<txwikinger_work> I thought it was to be CC-SA or something like that
<pleia2> pretty much, but that does exclude a lot of material and we need to discuss exceptions
<txwikinger_work> ah
<nhandler> If you are switching to the lists.ubuntu.com mailing list, you should send an email to the old list telling them about the change
<pleia2> he did
<pleia2> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-learning/2009-June/000000.html
<pleia2> (was sent to old and new)
<doctormo> pleia2: do we have a date/time for the meeting?
<pleia2> doctormo: not yet
<pleia2> gives idea of when we're all available: http://www.doodle.com/e4qemk8nuf2q5iye
<pleia2> sunday and monday evenings seem best
<doctormo> Aye aye
<bodhizazen> meeting ?
<bodhizazen> lol
<pleia2> bodhizazen: 10:00:07 < pleia2> and aside from this and moodle theme, I think it would help us to have a clear picture of exactly what needs to be done to start course creation
<pleia2> ^^ re: meeting
<bodhizazen> sounds good to me :)
<pleia2> this == licensing
<pleia2> licensing is mostly sorted, but I want to make sure everyone has had their say
 * bodhizazen is confused re licensing issues, but I am glad you all are looking at it :)
<pleia2> hehe
<pleia2> that's why it's good to have such a diverse board :)
<doctormo> heh
<doctormo> Well, I think I've had my say, I just get the feeling I'll be over ruled.
<doctormo> The Ubuntu Desktop manual seems to attractive to other board members, but I'm willing to reject it in favour of keeping things simpler for the future.
<doctormo> Failing that, I'll be asking for tight controls on derivitive works, no works derived from the UDM accepted, no other NC or ND works accepted etc etc.
<doctormo> And possibly an extant to ask for a replacement once we have other courses set up.
<Vantrax> lo all
<Vantrax> I have a question to all, we currently have ubuntu-learning etc for all the project names/channels/maillinglist but this seems largely as thats the standard for ubuntu channels. For the actual name at the top of the moodle site, should it not be Learn Ubuntu, or Learning Ubuntu considering the dns is learn.ubuntu.com
<Vantrax> then the tagline be Ubuntu Community Learning
<doctormo> Vantrax: this is from the title graphic?
<Vantrax> yer
<Vantrax> it just looks odd that way unless you know the community well
<Vantrax> opinions?
<doctormo> Vantrax: "Learn Ubuntu" is ok, "Ubuntu Learning" is better though.
<doctormo> a) sounds like it's the second subset only, where as b) sounds like a whole community
<Vantrax> im mor talking in terms of the site name, not the project, or community
<doctormo> Vantrax: Same thoughts apply
<doctormo> Learn Ubuntu contrasts with Learn Inkscape, but Ubuntu Learning can quite happily include Learn Inkscape.
<bodhizazen> Vantrax: I thought we were calling ourselves the UCLP
<bodhizazen> and Leaning was the realm of Edubuntu
<Vantrax> Education is edubutu
<Vantrax> Learning is us
<bodhizazen> so IMO UCLP is best , but I am flexible
<bodhizazen> Ubuntu Community Learning Project ?
<bodhizazen> UCL ?
<bodhizazen> drop the project ?
<Vantrax> and I was just talking about the name for the website itself, like ubuntu news is the fridge
<Vantrax> Yeah, the project shouldnt be in the name anyway:P
<Vantrax> UCL also sounds like a University:P
<bodhizazen> I think we need some structure, how do we give each project space ?
<Vantrax> I found myself a new car: http://www.wired.com/autopia/2009/06/air-force/
<bodhizazen> make a course Development ?
<bodhizazen> and on
<bodhizazen> we need some structure
<Vantrax> yep that was one of the things I talked about in the email
<Vantrax> we need to sit down with a list of suggested courses for programs and look at how that will work
<bodhizazen> Well, I thought we named ourselves the UCLP , lol
<bodhizazen> we would need to discuss a name change
<bodhizazen> in terms of a name at the top of the site, I am open, although the project name seems logical ???
<bodhizazen> we also need to start some regular meetings
<bodhizazen> once ever y2 weeks ?
<Vantrax> yer
<Vantrax> we need to have regular team and board meetings
<Vantrax> especially now we can start moving
#ubuntu-learning 2009-06-05
<pleia2> Vantrax: we were talking about this earlier today, according to the doodle poll 00:00 UTC on monday and tuesday (sunday and monday night for most of us, monday and tuesday morning for you?) tend to be the best
<pleia2> I'd vote for second sunday and third monday at that time
<pleia2> err
<pleia2> first monday and third sunday
<pleia2> or something :)
<Vantrax> thats 10am for me, and I can usually make it
<Vantrax> that being said, I am at work
<bodhizazen> +1 for 00:00 UTC
<bodhizazen> most any day ;P
<bodhizazen> we should put it on the fridge or a personal (gcal) ?
<bodhizazen> pleia2: my session in 45 min ?
<pleia2> bodhizazen: yes :)
<Vantrax> fridge imo
<Vantrax> for team meetings anyway
<bodhizazen> session in 5 min or so :)
<pleia2> cprofitt: someday I must pick your brain about running concise, successful meetings :) I am terrible at it
<cprofitt> lol... why do you say that?
<pleia2> tangents, losing my train of thought :)
<cprofitt> pleia2, today's event - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NewYorkTeam/Events/20090604
<pleia2> yeah, I saw! nice :)
<cprofitt> you just have to be single minded like me...
<pleia2> hehe
<pleia2> so in meetings I get distracted by tangents because I *want* input from other people, I don't want them to feel bad about offering suggestions
<cprofitt> I see...
<doctormo> I vote -1 for calling the website after the initalism, it's not a very good brand
<cprofitt> write down the 'off-topic' ideas... and tell them you will get back to that point later pleia2
<cprofitt> what website cprofitt
<doctormo> That's what you have to do when you chair a meeting
<cprofitt> I mean doctormo what website?
<doctormo> The ubuntu learning website
<pleia2> cprofitt: I am bad at saying that nicely, or I spend too much time trying to think of how to say it nicely :)
<doctormo> [18:48] <bodhizazen> so IMO UCLP is best , but I am flexible
<doctormo> pleia2: you don't get points for nice, you get points for being fair and decisive.
<cprofitt> don't try to say it nicely... just say it... tell people at the meeting start...
<cprofitt> so the website will be called UCLP?
<doctormo> cprofitt: I hope it won't be called UCLP
<cprofitt> I thought is was Ubuntu Community Learning Project
<cprofitt> which is ULCP...
<cprofitt> what are the other alternatives?
<cprofitt> UCLP I mean...
<doctormo> No, think about branding, design, ULCP is a jaundiced brand.
<cprofitt> why?
<doctormo> It talks of "people who couldn't think up a good name" not "what the thing does"
<doctormo> "Ubuntu Learning" should be fine.
<cprofitt> So you want to drop the Community and Project part...
<doctormo> yep
<doctormo> Have those in the sub-title as I have in my graphic I posted last night
<cprofitt> I have no issue with that... and I am the one that threw out the ULCP name -- I did not expect people to like it, but they did.
<cprofitt> link to graphic
<doctormo> http://divajutta.com/doctormo/learning/title.png
<pleia2> I like the simplicity
<cprofitt> doctormo, that works for me
<cprofitt> so pleia2 would you come to Rochester if it had a Linux Festival?
<pleia2> cprofitt: depends on when :)
<cprofitt> Spring time frame I think...
<cprofitt> too many other things in the fall...
<cprofitt> we are probably over a year out on it though...
<cprofitt> we need to build some more vendor support
 * pleia2 nods
<pleia2> build it, I will come :)
<cprofitt> I forced the Dell reps to come look at our packed room...
<pleia2> hehe
<cprofitt> and told them I would love to have them do an Ubuntu demo with their units
<cprofitt> they were all baffled that they sold Linux
<cprofitt> sales people are dense at times... at least the ones that work for Dell
<pleia2> lol
<cprofitt> their tech support is not much better...
<cprofitt> but they do sell Ubuntu machines
<doctormo> cprofitt: At least you got into their heads right?
<cprofitt> Well.. make them think it is worth talking about... worth supporting
<cprofitt> It bothers me more that Dell sells them and hides them than it does that HP and Lenovo do not sell them
<doctormo> pardon?
<doctormo> Are you saying that HP doesn't sell Ubuntu machines?
<doctormo> or are you saying that Dell thinks HP doesn't sell Ubuntu machines?
<cprofitt> HP does not sell ubuntu machiens
<cprofitt> Dell sells them... but hides them
<cprofitt> that upsets me... why hide the fact you are selling them
<Vantrax> HP does, just not desktops
<cprofitt> They sell Ubuntu Vantrax ? I knew they sold Linux, but was unaware of Ubuntu
<Vantrax> on servers only, Canonical is actually in the process of getting certified atm from memory
<cprofitt> so they are selling or will sell?
<Vantrax> we had the option on it from our reseller a few months ago when we bought a server
<cprofitt> nice... have not seen that in the states yet
<Vantrax> that 'might' have been because of who we are as opposed to a standard
<doctormo> cprofitt: HP sells a netbook with Ubuntu on it called the "HP Mini Mi", the Canonical guys down here at Lexington were the ones payed by HP to develop it.
<Vantrax> nice
<cprofitt> nice... I had not seen that either
<cprofitt> yeah US website still not offering ubuntu on their servers
<cprofitt> they offer Microsoft, Solaris, Redhat and Suse
<doctormo> For HP it's all a branding play, they never wanted to say that it was Ubuntu, they were even very shy about calling it Linux
<cprofitt> the minis are now saying contact your local rep to list alternative OS choices
<cprofitt> still not like these guys though -- http://www.system76.com/
<Vantrax> doctormo: i think that will change once they are HP certified
<cprofitt> I hope so Vantrax
<cprofitt> I would love to see main-line vendors just offer it as a drop down choice
<doctormo> cprofitt: I'd love to see a level playing field, but it won't happen just yet. It's getting there ever so slowly
<cprofitt> doctormo, I agree...
<cprofitt> and I think 'local shops' could be the start
<cprofitt> if they can differentiate themselves from the 'big boys' and put some stats in to the market that Linux can sell...
<bodhi_zazen> is there an easy way to search the fridge for specific meetings ?
<bodhi_zazen> The server died
<bodhi_zazen> I am not really sure what happened to the test moodle site :(
<bodhi_zazen> but I can not connect to it
<bodhi_zazen> I will re-build it this weekend
<pleia2> bodhi_zazen: could look at and search the xml feed: http://www.google.com/calendar/feeds/j5q85mmi6ujvjtii5s1n3li5io%40group.calendar.google.com/public/basic
<pleia2> oh hm, I guess that only shows ones that already passed
<pleia2> guess not
<bodhi_zazen> thanks anyways pleia2 :)
<bodhi_zazen> it is a busy calendar is all
 * pleia2 nods
<bodhi_zazen> we should start regular meetings for this team
<bodhi_zazen> weekly or bi weekly until we are up and running
<bodhi_zazen> do we have a meetings wiki page w/ an agenda ?
<pleia2> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning/Agenda
<pleia2> I think Vantrax was going to write meeting minutes and rotate this stuff out from our last meeting, but I don't know if that ever happened
<bodhi_zazen> not yet, I will work on it
<bodhi_zazen> have we agreed on a meeting schedule yet ?
<pleia2> not yet, the doodle poll shows monday and sunday evenings are best
<pleia2> so I proposed: 1st Monday, 3rd Sunday
<pleia2> which is mostly bi-weekly
<bodhi_zazen> where is the doodle pool ?
<bodhi_zazen> I saw that mentioned :)
<pleia2> http://www.doodle.com/e4qemk8nuf2q5iye
<pleia2> (update the timezone for yourself)
<bodhi_zazen> thank you, got it
<bodhi_zazen> sunday would be hard for me
<bodhi_zazen> and in my experience with the beginners team, turn out is poor on weekends
<bodhi_zazen> people view them as "free"
<bodhi_zazen> but then they travel and get busy :(
<pleia2> the good thing about bi-weekly meetings is we don't all actually have to be there :)
<pleia2> for every one
<pleia2> they are frequent enough that missing sometimes isn't a big deal
<bodhi_zazen> We tried it more then once, the second time people were clamoring for a weekend slot and it was not long b4 I was the only one at the meeting
<bodhi_zazen> +1
<pleia2> since this is what the doodle poll reflects, I think we should respect it
<pleia2> if sunday meetings turn out to be failures, we'll adjust :)
<bodhi_zazen> we still need licensing on the agenda ?
<pleia2> yes
<pleia2> but that agenda is old
<bodhi_zazen> I updated the agenda :)
 * pleia2 looks at old revision and makes page for last meeting
#ubuntu-learning 2009-06-07
<webbs02> hello all! :)
<xNinjai> http://pastebin.ca/1450422
<xNinja> hello
<doctormo> pleia2: Meeting today?
<pleia2> doctormo: we never actually planned one
<doctormo> ah
#ubuntu-learning 2010-06-08
<Timman68> is anyone having trouble with 10.04? my screen flashes black and white and I have to reboot... lose everything... says something about battery?
<doctormo> Timman68: Sounds bad, but you should ask in a support chat room such as #ubuntu
#ubuntu-learning 2010-06-10
<pleia2> gah, docbook
#ubuntu-learning 2010-06-11
<pleia2> doctormo: http://princessleia.com/ul/clb/ is an example of very basic docbook format for part of your command line basics class
<pleia2> s/format/html output
#ubuntu-learning 2011-06-11
<lars_> This is my first time using Xchat. Would this be the right place for a NAS/smbfs question?
