#ubuntu-meeting 2004-11-05
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:mdz] : Hoary kickoff meeting: Monday, 2004-10-25, 1600UTC
<HauntedUnix> Morning
<sivang> can someone put the agenda link on the channel's topic?
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:bob2] : Hoary kickoff meeting: Monday, 2004-10-25, 1600UTC || Agenda: http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/HoaryKickoffMeeting
<ploum> I put already a link about my opinion
<ploum> http://ploum.frimouvy.org/?2004/10/25/6-i-dont-want-people-to-use-gnome-applications-anymore
<doko> I know I am late ... are people already busy working? so quiet ...
<Keybuk> half an hour early
<doko> ahh still summertime in the UK?
<Keybuk> meeting time is UTC, not BST/GMT
<Keybuk> we're UTC+0100 at the moment
<lamont> doko: so you're early. :-)
<doko> lamont: at least that can't be wrong ;)
<lamont> yeah
<sivang> doko : early enough :)
<mdz> jdub: are you here for the duration?  thanks for staying up
<jdub> probably
<jdub> i'm hammered
<jdub> got up at 4am
<daniels> ouch
<daniels> you're turning into fabio :\
<fabbione> tsk :P
<sivang> hey lamont
<fabbione> he should be honoured of that ;)
<sivang> fabboine : still insomnic ?
<thom> fabbione: the word in english is "suicidal" ;-)
<daniels> or terrified, either way
<mdz> jdub: had a nap along the way, I hope
<bob2> daniels: think how much fun you'll have over there!
<jdub> mdz: no
<bob2> "little daniel, it's 4am, let's hack x.org!"
* jdub goes to have a sprite recharge
<mdz> ...daniels awakes as a bucket of ice water is emptied over his head
<Keybuk> right, better get tea
* daniels calls ahead to the hotel and sends instructions that no visitors will be allowed.
<daniels> mdz: 4am is generally when I go to sleep these days
<mdz> ok
<mdz> called to order, etc.
<mdz> is everyone here who ought to be?
<lamont> morning sivang
<sivang> lamont : good evening, it's 18:00pm here ;-)
* Kamion waves
* enrico says hi
<mdz> me waits a moment for stragglers to arrive
* sivang sticks his head up
<sabdfl> hi all
<pitti> Hi fearless sabdfl!
<sivang> Hi fearless leader! :)
<sabdfl> hey all, mdz will be chairing this one
<seb128> evening sabdfl 
<mdz> ok, we have a ton of ground to cover, so let's get started
<doko> evening all
<tseng> 'lo
<mvo_> hi
<mdz> fisrt agenda item is to review the release schedule, and probably make some adjustments. jdub, are you back with Sprite?
<mdz> I believe the schedule requires updating to reflect changes to the GNOME 2.10 schedule
<mdz> ok, let's skip ahead to the merge process for now
<Kamion> and we need to fiddle the CD milestone dates
<jdub> it does
<mdz> ok, let's not :-)
<Keybuk> who wants some cute stats about warty?
<mdz> jdub: any changes which we should talk about here?
<jdub> http://www.gnome.org/start/2.9/
<jdub> mdz: not significant enough, no
<jdub> ^ that's the gnome schedule, for the record
<jdub> ours just needs tweaking
<daniels> fwiw, the proposed gnome schedule: http://www.gnome.org/start/2.9/
<Keybuk> jdub: by how much?
<jdub> days
<mdz> Kamion: I'm happy for you to tweak the CD milestone dates as you feel is appropriate; you might want to wait for jdub's changes though
<Kamion> mdz: not in a hurry, just flaggint it
<Kamion> flagging
<mdz> ok, nothing major in that department, then; we can move on
<mdz> to THE MERGE
* fabbione runs away screaming
<mdz> elmo: what's the status of the sync infrastructure?
<mdz> ...creepy organ music plays...
<elmo> mdz: mostly ready - I need two things before I can go:
<elmo> a) proper seed lists for hoary
<elmo> b) a decision on what, if anything, we're doing about indices files for hoary?
<Gmail> am i allowed to say a few comments?
<daniels> Gmail: we are talking about the huge merge with sid.  if it is appropriate and on-topic, yes.
<ploum>  March 9th: 2.10.0 release! (wow, my birthday :-) )
<mdz> Gmail: yes, this is a public meeting, but please try to stay on topic, we have a great deal to discuss
<Kamion> Gmail: we're on an agenda here, let's stick to it and have any other business at the end.
<mdz> elmo: what sort of indices?
<elmo> mdz: Packages/Sources, etc.  there was talk of pw-protecting and/or hiding them at one stage
<mdz> elmo: until we have the initial merge sorted out?
<jdub> elmo: that was about crack-o-the-day, not hoary
<mdz> there may be something to be said for that
<elmo> jdub: no, it really was  hoary at one stage. 
<lamont> elmo: I thought that applied more to grumpy start (at hoary freeze...)
<mdz> we really don't know how bad the breakage will be, though
<jdub> elmo: it was about hoary while warty was still in devel
<mdz> the only compelling justification is so that people don't dive into it when it's known to be severely broken
<sabdfl> basic question, do we think people will expect hoary to be sane-if-there?
<mdz> which I think it very well could be at the very beginning
<Kamion> sabdfl: we've been telling people not to, but I'm sure they will
<mdz> sabdfl: perhaps not sane, but installable and not breaking their desktop
<fabbione> sabdfl: mostlikely
<daniels> sabdfl: you can s/warty/hoary/ now, and apt-get update won't error our
<mdz> those who have been warned deserve what they get, but there will be others who have not been warned
<elmo> daniels: eh, you'll screw your system
<sabdfl> but there's nothing in their system telling them to s/warty/hoary/
<sabdfl> it will take longer to get through the pain of merging if we try to keep hoary sane at all times
<mdz> elmo: regarding the seed lists, let's use the Warty seed lists; we can update them later
<mdz> elmo: we'll need to have a review of the proposed seed changes, and I expect we won't get to it during this meeting
<elmo> mdz: ok
<Kamion> mdz: are we going to duplicate them in the wiki, or do I not need to change Germinate yet?
<Gmail> ok as i goto sleep here are a few ideas: you know you new usplash thing add to it that alt+flock's F1 == alt+F1 it get really anoying on crappy key baords that have f-lock off by default
<fabbione> elmo, mdz: please kill anything X related in the seeds, we don't want to merge xfree86 from sid
<elmo> fabbione: we won't merge it - it's ubuntu modified
<sabdfl> gmail: msg me oob and i'll raise them at the end
<mdz> Kamion, elmo: let's continue to use germinate pointing to the Warty seeds
<fabbione> elmo: perfect
<mdz> so what elmo and I discussed was that his tool would automatically import unmodified packages
<mdz> and for modified packages (those with an ubuntu version number), send out a notification
<mdz> probably a simple email to start
<Keybuk> notification to whom?
<mdz> a mailing list seems appropriate
<doko> notification of what? resync, or keep it?
<mdz> doko: a notification of the fact that it needs review
<lamont> and then we either merge, or sync new-debian
<Keybuk> http://people.ubuntu.com/~scott/patches/warty/
<elmo> mdz and I discussed including the changelog from the debian version, to aid in prioritzation
<mdz> then someone will read the changelog, determine if there are changes which have not been merged upstream, and either request a sync of the Debian version (if none), or do a manual merge (if so)
<fabbione> wouldn't be better to track it in bugzilla?
<Keybuk> ^ that's the set of patches made to warty since Debian-freeze
<Keybuk> http://people.ubuntu.com/~scott/patches/debian/
<mdz> elmo: yes, that would be great
<fabbione> so we are sure of what is done or not?
<Keybuk> ^ that's the changes to those packages in Debian since the freeze
<lamont> elmo: sweet
<mdz> fabbione: we discussed it briefly, it is a possibility
<Keybuk> http://people.ubuntu.com/~scott/output/
<mdz> I am concerned about generating a huge number of bugs that way
<Keybuk> ^ result of merging the two together, with a bunch of rejects to review
<Kamion> fabbione: bugzilla feels extraordinarily heavyweight for this, to me
<mdz> but we have the tools to do it
<fabbione> Kamion: i think it's easier since you go, pickup, kill and so on...
<mdz> bugzilla does have the advantage of making it easy to track assignments, so we know if something is being done or not
<fabbione> Kamion: otherwise we might lose track of the list
<elmo> we're talking about 248 bugs
<elmo> just for main
<pitti> mdz: and we could also sort out the "who does what" easily in bz
<mdz> elmo: let's create bugs automatically for the initial batch at least
<elmo> *shrug* k
<mdz> we'll need to figure out what to do for the ongoing merges, based on that experience
<sabdfl> could equally well be a single wiki page
<pitti> sabdfl: where everybody marks the packages he will merge?
<pitti> would work, too; maybe easier than bz
<elmo> what do we want to do about universe?  the majority of those changes were "make it build" fixes that should be irrelevant - I'm semi-tempted to overwrite, but that may just be me
<daniels> doing X could be really interesting -- personally, I'd really like a lock on the repository for 48h to just do X stuff and deal with the fallout, if any.
<mdz> let's start with bugzilla, and if it becomes cumbersome, we can switch to something else
<mdz> elmo: let's ignore universe for now
<elmo> mdz: err.. mmk
<elmo> not even sync the unmodified stuff?
<mdz> hmm
<mdz> sure, why not
<fabbione> daniels: no need to. we will use chroots for that
<fabbione> daniels: let's discuss it tomorrow
<mdz> but we don't want bugs or notifications about the rest of it until we've finished with the initial work for main
<elmo> ok
<mdz> elmo: what about accessing the morgue?
<elmo> mdz: what do you think Scott's been doing?
<sabdfl> re universe, are there any changes other than "make it build" changes?
<sabdfl> if not, let's just throw open the doors
<mdz> elmo: no idea
<Keybuk> elmo: I'm convinced he has me on ignore these days <g>
<jdub> sabdfl: some resyncs
<doko> elmo: can you publish a list of changed packages in universe?
<mdz> sabdfl: yes, we've done things like the libtiff transition
<elmo> mdz: anyway, it's on rookery, I can make it via http, if you want
<jdub> sabdfl: libtiff-- yeah
<pitti> sabdfl: I added some RC bug fixes regarding file conflicts
<mdz> elmo: what I expect we want for the merge tool is a Sources.gz
<sabdfl> did the libtiff stuff not get take upstream?
<mdz> elmo: or a bunch of them
<pitti> sabdfl: not all of them are already fixed in sid
<sabdfl> ok
<Keybuk> mdz: what would this merge tool do?
<mdz> Keybuk: :-)
<mdz> Keybuk: a lower form of magic
<elmo> mdz: sure, can create a sources.gz
<mdz> just a simple 3-way merge from 1.0-1, 1.0-1ubuntu3 and 1.0-2
<Kamion> pitti: I thought almost everything did, it was blocking britney for ages and isn't any more
<elmo> might take a day or two, but ;P
<sabdfl> if libtiff was a lamont-automated-patch then we can recreate it quickly enough
<Keybuk> mdz: ah, yes.  you get http://people.ubuntu.com/~scott/output/ when you do that
<mdz> libtiff was
<Keybuk> did that over the weekend because I was bored
<jdub> sabdfl: (yeah)
<mdz> Keybuk: is that from hct?
<Keybuk> mdz: no, just low-level magic
<jdub> i think sync-and-overwrite in universe is fairly sane
<doko> keybuk: hmm, that output is useful for new upstream versions as well?
<Keybuk> tla was taking too long
<mdz> Keybuk: it has lots of lovely rejects
<mdz> Keybuk: what are the numbers like?
<Keybuk> mdz: 10,704 "rejects"
<Keybuk> around 7,000 of those with same changes on each side
<Keybuk> 3,596 left as different changes to both sides
<mdz> Keybuk: that's number-of-hunks or number-of-files?
<Keybuk> some 2,500 of those in .po files and debian/changelog or debian/control
<Keybuk> mdz: number-of-files
<lamont> Keybuk: sounds like you need to autodetect same-changes case, eh?
<sabdfl> Keybuk: any magic you can bring to the next two weeks will make you friends for life :-)
<Keybuk> warty has some 295,004 hunks
<sabdfl> we can drop po
<Kamion> sabdfl: uh, I think that's a really bad idea for d-i
<sabdfl> Kamion: true
<Keybuk> 42,680 patched files ... 1,320 patches in 387 packages
<daniels> Keybuk: (you can safely exclude xfree86 from that list of number of hunks)
<Kamion> sabdfl: we put enormous amounts of effort into the .po branding
<sabdfl> right
<doko> sabdfl: but not for all of the installer packages (s/Debian/Ubuntu).
<sabdfl> right again
<Keybuk> yes, I'd like daf to teach us how we merge changes between .po files
<Keybuk> because whoeever designed that file format is getting a beating if I ever meet them
<doko> use Rosetta?
<sabdfl> rosetta gets you faster community translations
<sabdfl> but wn't help maintain an effective long-lived branch
<Keybuk> Kamion's hunch was right ... it actually is easier to apply the debian changes to warty than try to go back and apply warty's changes to debian
<sabdfl> real solution is to parameterise the branding
<doko> hmm, I didn't send kamion the script I used for merging the translations ...
<Kamion> sabdfl: I spent quite a lot of thought on it and TBH I'm not very convinced that it's possible
<sabdfl> parameterisation?
<Kamion> at least, not without FAR greater gettext-fu than I possess or have so far seen
<Kamion> right
<sabdfl> i'll knock on daf's door
<daf> Keybuk: what sort of merge? simple join of two PO files, three-way merge between translators or three-way merge with message ID and translator changes or or something else?
<sabdfl> better than def's door
<Keybuk> daf: three-way merge.  you have original .po and two sets of patches to it
<mdz> daf: in  this case it's a 3-way merge with both message ID and translations changed :-)
<Keybuk> Kamion: I actually don't see any po/ failures in debian-installer
<Kamion> there will be a number of cases where we just have to re-brand, there's no choice
<Keybuk> I think it was happy with most of them :o)
<Kamion> Keybuk: debian-installer is just the build system.
<Keybuk> oh :'(
<Kamion> Keybuk: it doesn't HAVE any .po files :-)
<Keybuk> bah
<fabbione> lol
<Keybuk> I broke apart all the patches as well
<mdz> Keybuk: so how much of this can we realistically automate?
<Keybuk> http://people.ubuntu.com/~scott/patches/warty/
<Keybuk> that's each "change" to warty
<mdz> if we can get it down to a level where, for the simple case, we can end up with a source package, complete with changelog entry, read for upload
<Kamion> for .po files I'm happy to do it by steam for now and gradually automate; I think I've got the majority of the changes there
<mdz> that'd be ideal
<fabbione> Keybuk: the list isn't complete, is it?
<Keybuk> fabbione: packages for which there is both a debian and ubuntu verison in the morgue and debian < ubuntu
<Keybuk> (ie stuff we've changed)
<Keybuk> though the gnome stuff we can probably ignore, because we *really* changed that <g>
<Keybuk> http://people.ubuntu.com/~scott/patches/debian/
<daf> Keybuk: what are the two sets of patches?
<Keybuk> that's the debian side of it
<fabbione> Keybuk: ok
<Keybuk> daf: "ubuntu changes" and "debian changes"
<mdz> Keybuk: output/ is the result of applying debian/ to warty-current?
<sabdfl> yes, gnome, x, we figure we take the lead
<Keybuk> mdz: yup
<Kamion> daf: Ubuntu changes generally fall into two groups: branding, and minor translation updates from overenthusiastic people who thought we had a good process for translation updates in warty :-)
<mdz> Keybuk: <mdz> if we can get it down to a level where, for the simple case, we can end up with a source package, complete with changelog entry, read for upload
<mdz> Keybuk: doable?
<daf> if you simply have a patch that adds/changes translations, you simply apply the patch, regenerate the .pot file and use msgmerge
<Kamion> daf: Debian changes you know
<mdz> s/read/ready/
<Keybuk> it actually ends up with about 1,000 rej files that need manually checking (3 per package) ... and a lot of those are hopefully simple fixes
<Kamion> daf: the patch typically doesn't apply
<Keybuk> mdz: well, you still need a human to resolve the case where debian and ubuntu have gone in different directions
<mdz> Keybuk: yes, but we have a lot of stuff which should be non-overlapping
<daf> Keybuk: ok, you need to find the file the patch applies to, apply it to that and then do further merging with the patched file
<daf> arg
<daf> s/Keybuk/Kamion/
<mdz> the changelog in particular will always conflict due to diff/patch being how they are, but that's something we should be able to consistently resolve automatically
<Keybuk> mdz: yeah, need to figure out a trick for that one :)
<Kamion> daf: ah, so we unpack the branchpoint package for that
<daniels> mdz: you could reasonably trivially write a changelog merge tool tho
<daniels> mdz: the only problem is that patch doesn't understand changelog format
<sabdfl> hm... changelog.ubuntu, which points into changelog.debian would be easier
<jdub> separate ubuntu changelog would be really useful
<Kamion> sabdfl: urk, debian/changelog is something understood by all sorts of tools
<sabdfl> i'm not sure what the tools would do with that
<elmo> hoary's been seeded with woody, and sync's running for non-modified stuff now
<daf> in general, I think the method is this: (1) for each patch, apply it to the file it was originally for; (2) call msgcat on all the files to join them all together; (3) regenerate POT; (2) use msgmerge on the results of (2) and (3)
<pitti> can we please resolve these technical details later and go on with the agenda?
<Keybuk> elmo: did you really mean "woody"? :p
<daniels> elmo: woody?
<Kamion> it's more useful to users not to have a separate Ubuntu changelog, I feel
<mdz> pitti: the technical detail of the merge is significant because it will determine how the work progresses
<sabdfl> the changelog problem is one of a general class of problems we'll have to solve for derivatives
<elmo> yeah, I thought it'd give us a special old skool flavour
* sivang agrees with pitti
<sabdfl> Kamion: think about the general problem, debian->ubuntu->kubuntu
<mdz> if we're going to fix up all of the conflicts by hand, we also need to do it consistently
<sabdfl> and i don't think a single file can convey it
<doko> daf: you need to recode file if the encoding changed
<Keybuk> mdz: so yeah, if we can work out a way of automating a given type of conflict, I can put that logic into hct so it can do it automatically later
<sabdfl> certainly not one in the current format
<Kamion> sabdfl: I know, but I still think it's actively more useful to users to have a single changelog
<mdz> Keybuk: yeah, you'll need to do that anyway
<daf> doko: urgh, good point
<Kamion> sabdfl: I've considered this fairly carefully ...
<sabdfl> Kamion: or a tool which presents it that way
<mdz> Kamion: we'd need a changelog format which could represent branches meaningfully
<jdub> i find it a pain to maintain ubuntu+debian packages
<mdz> which would probably require version numbers which can represent branches meaningfully
<daf> there are disadvantages to using msgcat, though
<mdz> which is a ways off :-)
<Kamion> mdz: nah, I have a suggestion I'll feed you offline
* enrico agrees with sivang and pitti
<fabbione> sabdfl: changelog is used also to build the package itself. it's not a good idea to fiddle with it too much
<Keybuk> mdz: /debian/changelog.rej and /ChangeLog.rej I'm tempted to just do by stripping the context and applying them at 0,0 -- that usually "works" :o)
<pitti> With my recent merges, I packaged every ubuntu change as a debian/patches/ubuntu- patch, took the pristine Debian package and documented the Ubuntu patches in the changelog
<mdz> Keybuk: apart from being out of order
<Kamion> Keybuk: better to merge changelogs in version order if possible ...
<daf> Keybuk: I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on a file format that would be better than PO (even if they only relate to making diffs work better)
<pitti> This was quite a bunch of work, but it is very clean
<sabdfl> i understand that the toolchain uses it heavily, but part of our hoary goal is to generalise the platform for derivatives, and that will mean touching the toolchain
<Keybuk> mdz, Kamion: I've applied debian to warty, not the other way around
<mdz> pitti: yes, that works when the package is already using dpatch
<Keybuk> it's the debian changelog entries conflicting
<Keybuk> so putting those at the top *does* put them in order
<Keybuk> <hoary> <new debian> <warty> <old debian>
<jono> hi all
<mdz> Keybuk: no, it doesn't
<pitti> mdz: for dpatch/cdbs packages this is actually very nice
<pitti> mdz: so we could do it for packages supporting it
<Keybuk> moving warty to the top actually takes the changelog out of version order
<mdz> Keybuk: the correct order could be something like <old debian> <less old debian> <old ubuntu> <current debian> <current ubuntu>
<Kamion> sabdfl: I don't think separating the changelogs out is the right answer, though; the nCipher changelog format would be better (it documents branches inline), and I'll suggest something like that when we're not in a meeting
<Keybuk> mdz: that's the order we're going to get
<mdz> Keybuk: ah, if you do the merges in version number order, yes
<mdz> wait, no
<Keybuk> mdz: *nods* :)
<mdz> you'd need to do them in date order
<sabdfl> Kamion: ok, sounds good
<daniels> mdz: surely version order is more meaningful?
<Kamion> sabdfl: (this would also have benefits for things like BTS version tracking)
<mdz> daniels: it gets weird
<daniels> mdz: it more accurately represents the branches, though
<pitti> daniels: but you cannot really sort 2.0-0ubuntu1 and 2.0-1
<mdz> version order leaves us with something that makes more sense in and of itself :-)
<pitti> daniels: either one may happened sooner or later
<Keybuk> mdz: tomorrow afternoon UK, I can give you a collection of source packages with changelog and anything else I can obviously do automatically resolved
<daniels> mdz: if you do it in date order, you'll end up with confusion because stuff that got changed in debian, wasn't in ubuntu at that stage
<Keybuk> each one will be accompanied by a "this fell out" patch which will need manual review
<mdz> Keybuk: great
<Keybuk> and if we find ways of automatically doing that review, then I want to know about it to write code to do that next
<sabdfl> ok, i think we can take this discussion out of band
<mdz> ok
<Keybuk> the total lines of "this fell out" are pretty tiny, around 3,000 in total
<mdz> initial merge strategy is to let Keybuk lock himself in a room for a day
<mdz> and then create bugs on the remainder
<Keybuk> which given nearly a million lines of changes is pretty good <g>
<Keybuk> (ignoring .po files, which are evil, evil, evil)
<mdz> if the remainder is small enough, we'll just do it by hand
<sabdfl> great
<mdz> eek, we do need to resolve that .po issue
<azeem> this whole problems smells like an application for that conary package thingy, which reportedly handles branches, patches and merges pretty well
<Keybuk> daf: not putting a changing line number right before the bit that changes would be swell
<jdub> azeem: ssshhh, be wery, wery quiet.
<mdz> ok, onward to feature goals
<mdz> let's take it from top to bottom
<mdz> and for each item, determine whether it makes most sense for one of us to do it, or see if someone else listening would like to volunteer
<mdz> first item is UTF-8, which is a bit of amorphous
<mdz> we'll set UTF-8 by default early in the release cycle, and just fix whatever breakage comes up
<mdz> it's really a bunch of unclassified bugs at this point, rather than a feature
<Keybuk> yeah, I've been running utf-8 for a couple of years now; zsh is about the only breakage I notice
<pitti> I have UTF-8 running for very long now, works nice for most parts
<mdz> what will we do about existing Ubuntu installations?
<mdz> leave them at non-UTF8, send out an announcement asking them to change?
<fabbione> mdz: wiki -> utf8 howto ?
<pitti> would make most sense
<doko> changing the default from ISO to UTF8 on upgrade?
<Keybuk> Kamion: what does debconf do in this situation?
<mdz> fabbione: we should supply a script I think
<sivang> add something to ubuntu-desktop to do that? :)
<pitti> changing ~/.profile files on upgrading would be hell
<Keybuk> first install the question was too low a priority to get asked
<mdz> which handles generating locales and setting the default
<Keybuk> what happens if the value is different on the update
<Kamion> Keybuk: which?
<Keybuk> does it keep the old or go with the new?
<jdub> mdz: shouldn't we switch as part of the upgrade, so systems are consistent by default?
<enrico> make an application to handle post-upgrade configuration issues?
<mdz> jdub: changing the locale on the user sounds fairly evil
<mdz> enrico: something more like that, yes
<fabbione> i wouldn't go for automatic changes of that level
<doko> mdz: we don't change the locale, but the encoding
<enrico> Like one runs that and gets a TODO-list of things to check
<Kamion> Keybuk: it's got a value already, it keeps it unless told otherwise
<mdz> doko: that is a locale setting
<elmo> yeah, that's like spitting on the golden rule thing
<Keybuk> Kamion: and a dpkg-reconfigure locales would change to the new value?
<pitti> mdz: we can't change the encoding automatically; this would break _every_ text file the user created
<sabdfl> jdub: golden rule
<Kamion> Keybuk: no
<mdz> pitti: we are in agreement
<Keybuk> or do you have to nuke out config.dat ?
<Kamion> Keybuk: EVIL EVIL EVIL
<seb128> if we change the system locale, what will happen with filename ?
<mdz> we will provide a tool which the user can run which will DTRT
<sivang> pitti is right. why wasn't it set at UTF8 from first place?
<mdz> who will write it?
<jdub> sabdfl: not a user chosen setting :)
<seb128> we need to convert the filesystem ?
<pitti> sivang: because there are still some bugs
<mdz> sivang: bugs
<seb128> filenames even
<sivang> oh
* enrico was thinking filesystem charset, too
<Kamion> we should make sure that UTF-8 is generated where possible, but I'm very leery of changing the default for existing installations
<sabdfl> i think this falls into the category of things that new installations get by default, upgrades get if they themselves do it
<sabdfl> Kamion: agreed
<jdub> yeah
<pitti> sabdfl: agreed
<Keybuk> enrico: GNOME does UTF-8 filenames whatever charset you're in, I think
<mdz> Kamion: will you write the utf8-enabler tool?
<pitti> Autodetecting the existing encoding of an ASCII file is practically impossible
<sabdfl> we will have a good "release notes" and "upgrade notes" which can document this
<Kamion> mdz: can do, yeah
<enrico> Keybuk: even on things like BIG5 VFATs?  (it would create illegal names)
<mdz> ok, great
<mdz> and the bugs we'll fix as they come
<mdz> next is a big one
<Kamion> pitti: autodetecting the existing encoding of an *ASCII* file is trivial ... :-)
<mdz> unified hardware detection
<ogra> will there be any iso support in the apps left ?
<seb128> Keybuk: nautilus does, but a lot of files are created out of nautilus ...
<pitti> Kamion: okay, but you don't need to change them anyway
<daniels> mdz: i would kill to move off discover1
<sabdfl> ogra: yes, aiui
<mdz> ogra: yes, we won't try to remove support for non-utf8 encodings
<pitti> Kamion: but take a look at my ~, there are thousands of files with different encodings; some already in UTF-8, some in LATIN9, etc.
<sabdfl> by unified we mean:
<sabdfl>  - installer
<sabdfl>  - installed system
<sabdfl>  - live cd
<mdz> right
<Kamion> pitti: (you said ASCII, not text)
<daniels> sorry, my bad.
<mdz> currently those use: discover1, hotplug and knoppix, respectively
<pitti> Kamion: whoops
<mdz> my position is that hotplug is the way forward for all three
<daniels> yes
<Keybuk> I guess hotplug is the target for unification
<sabdfl> in addition there's the layer of intelligence above the detection tools
<daniels> however, currently discover1-data has by far the most accurate hardware list, afaik
<sabdfl> for example, x resolution and refresh
<fabbione> we might still need discover for X
<Kamion> ok, hotplug is one of the post-sarge goals for d-i
<Kamion> we can move forward on that ourselves, given udev-udeb and hotplug-udeb packages
<mdz> fabbione: yes, I consider X a separate issue
<fabbione> mdz: ok
<mdz> this one is purely kernel stuff
<rburton> doesn't discover load a few drivers which hotplug doesn't?
<Kamion> hotplug doesn't do X stuff, so discover is still needed for that, but that's OK
<sabdfl> mdz: but we'll still need to unify the live cd x detection with the installer
<mdz> rburton: installed Ubuntu has been using hotplug exclusively for some time now
<sivang> rburton : this is what I was once told by joeyh
<mdz> sabdfl: yes, I think we should consider that separately as well
<pitti> daniels: does hotplug have hw lists at all? I thought it just uses the modules file from the kernel
<bob2> pitti: purely from the kernel
<rburton> mdz, ah ok
<Kamion> pitti: yes, modules.pcimap
<sabdfl> it's fundamental to the feature goal 
<sivang> rburton : experimenting with that backed up his statement.
<bob2> isn't that generated from the kernel?
<sivang> (on sid)
<daf> Keybuk: yeah, that would help
<daniels> sabdfl: tbh I haven't even looked at the live CD's autodetection, but that's one of the things we can look at
<lamont> and then for grumpy eliminate the "separate but equal" (X vs kernel)?
<sabdfl> sound, video, webcam, modem, network
<Kamion> I'm happy to do the hotplug d-i integration, but does anyone know udev and hotplug well enough to produce udebs?
<Keybuk> pitti: if the kernel doesn't know a module can be used with a given id, it's a lost cause trying to load it *anyway*
<sabdfl> i'd like to be using the same codepaths for all of them
<mdz> Kamion: should be easy
<Kamion> (I don't; I looked briefly before warty released, and got lost)
<mdz> hotplug is just a bunch of scripts
<lamont> Kamion: I expect creating udeb's wouldn't be _that_ difficult, no?
<pitti> Keybuk: right; at the time I typed this question I still thought we want to use it for X :-/
<mdz> udev isn't much more
<mdz> Kamion: I'll lend a hand with that
<Kamion> lamont: it's not hard, just a question of knowing the package really
<Kamion> mdz: thanks
<lamont> ah, ok
<mdz> fabbione: I know you have some ideas about the way forward for X autodetection
<Kamion> Keybuk: that's not always true
<mdz> fabbione: what is the right way to unify it between the live CD and the installed system?
<fabbione> mdz: yes
<Kamion> can I just flag up buses that aren't hotplug-enabled, too
<Kamion> the mac-io bus on powermacs is the big one
<mdz> Kamion: I have a patch for that
<Keybuk> isn't that enabled yet?
<Kamion> mdz: what, to the kernel?
<Keybuk> I thought that was floating
<mdz> Kamion: yes
<Kamion> mdz: cool
<sabdfl> very
<fabbione> mdz: i can simply create a script that simulate an installation to detect the hardware as i do in the normal installation and create a live config
<mdz> we can stage it for upstream
<Kamion> we'll still have the installer's register-module facility available for corner cases
<mdz> fabbione: so we would change morphix to invoke something which would trigger the debconf magic, rather than using the knoppix stuff
<fabbione> mdz: correct
<sabdfl> fabbione: can we shift the x scripts to python please?
<amu> i think rewriting live-hwdesting using discover/hotplug is not such diffifult, timeuseage is very high 
<fabbione> sabdfl: no
<sabdfl> fabbione: why not?
<mdz> amu: it should just be a matter of calling /etc/init.d/hotplug start, if we do our work correctly
<sabdfl> mdz: plus the config layer
<Kamion> sabdfl: .config scripts can only use Essential: yes packages safely
<mdz> sabdfl: config layer? for hotplug?
<sabdfl> Kamion: see further down the list :-)
<fabbione> sabdfl: because it is too much rework and as i was telling you a couple of days back i understimated the load to switch to x.org
<sabdfl> mdz: for eg sound config
<fabbione> sabdfl: so i much rather keep what we can from Xfree86
<Kamion> sabdfl: diverging from Debian on something as big as the X .config script is busy-work, surely?
<mdz> sabdfl: we should use all of the stock Ubuntu stuff for that
<amu> mdz: with cdbackup it works  
<sabdfl> detecting the card is one thing, setting appropriate levels etc
<Kamion> sabdfl: also, upgrades
<sabdfl> Kamion: i'm trying to standardise skill sets, which will pay off for us as a team later
<Kamion> sabdfl: I know, but Essential is a very hairy place
<mdz> the other issue is that python is huge for an essential package
<sabdfl> understood, having python there is not something i'm going to budge on
<Keybuk> sabdfl: the issue comes where Python has to be installed, configured and completed before *any* package using it is installed
<sabdfl> python-base
<Keybuk> so it gets a bit hairy
<mdz> sabdfl: the python guys will scream if we split up the standard library further :-)
<sabdfl> the python guys will be thrilled that python has become Essential
<jdub> ooof, which bits would you choose for python-base, too...
<doko> we had the split once in Debian. there are no clear lines where to split it. but that further down the list.
<sabdfl> as for scchnnnaaakkee...
<fabbione> sabdfl: we are going to deal with a new upstream and that will be already hell of a job. perhaps we can reconsider it for hoary+1, but i am not too crazy to do it now
<Kamion> will they? they weren't so thrilled about distutils not being there ...
<sabdfl> fabbione: no, since we are creating these packages from scratch, i'd like to do it right the first time
<Kamion> I don't think they'd be happy unless the standard library's in one piece
<sabdfl> Kamion: it will be, post install
<Kamion> sabdfl: in some configurations ... :)
<Keybuk> sabdfl: but then you can't use any of the Python standard library in Python scripts in packages
<Keybuk> sabdfl: and Python is pretty useless without its standard library :(
<doko> keybuk: depends which modules and extensions you compile in statically
<sabdfl> ok, separate discussion, i dont mind really, just do mind that python is in essential for ubuntu
<sabdfl> and that we use it for all system functions unless there's a bollocking good reason not to
<Keybuk> (personally, I'd like to kick perl out of Essential :p)
* sivang thought it was going to be for GTK/GNOME wise
<Kamion> sivang: Essential's a technical category
<mdz> ok, the current unresolved item is the unification of hardware detection
<mdz> we can either do this as one task, or break it down
<mdz> Kamion said he would do the hotplugification of d-i
<sabdfl> mdz: i think we're all agreed on hotplug for device detection
<sabdfl> amu: live cd
<mdz> so the remainder is live CD work
<mdz> amu: ?
<jdub> mdz: can we put someone in charge of that goal in general?
<mdz> jdub: I will take responsibility for tracking the sub-tasks
<jdub> that was easy ;)
<mdz> fabbione: what is your opinion about dynamic X reconfiguration at boot, to detect hardware changes?
<amu> hmm good question, therorethically it should work  
* mdz ducks
<fabbione> mdz: i have some ideas already in that direction
<mdz> fabbione: that would bring the live CD and the installed system in line with each other
<fabbione> mdz: and a possible solution
<mdz> nd we will need it for a gui installer asa well
<fabbione> mdz: that will come after X.org is out
<mdz> fabbione: hoary?
<fabbione> mdz: probably
<Kamion> mdz: we don't need that for a GUI installer
<sabdfl> kernelfb?
<Kamion> right
<Kamion> gtk+directfb
<mdz> ok
<daniels> mdz: it's difficult to do that without crapping all over user changes
<fabbione> mdz: i am boiling the idea. i need to see with daniel if it's possible
<mdz> well, in both cases we need _something_ which works at boot
<daniels> yes, X is too heavy for a GUI installer and a bootsplash.
<jdub> daniels: not for the installer
<fabbione> mdz: hold on a sec. we are confusing 2 things here
<mdz> daniels: we could do it only if X fails to start
<jdub> X is a good option for the installer
<daniels> gui installer is directfb domain, imho, and bootsplash is mad phat splash's area
<Kamion> jdub: not convinced
<fabbione> one thing is configuring X at boot time for liveCD
<mdz> ok, let's leave the gui installer discussion for another time
<jdub> Kamion: easier to deal with than gtkfb or directfb
<fabbione> and one is autoconfiguring it for the normal installation
<mdz> we're talking about unifying X config between the live CD and the installed system
<fabbione> mdz: ok. i have already a solution for that. and yes it will be hoary
<mdz> I think there is overlap between that, and dealing with hardware changes in the desktop
<Kamion> jdub: directfb just comes up and just works, no effort whatsoever; I don't see how X could be easier
<fabbione> jdub: Kamion is right
<fabbione> jdub: X will only bring problems
<daniels> (my parting shot: the framebuffer very rarely goes wrong -- like, ever; however, looking at the list, X autodetection is harder)
<sabdfl> mdz: at the very least, it would be possible to store a set of "detected values", and see if that has changed from one boot to the next, and prompt for reconfig
<daniels> anyway, yeah, unifying the config from livecd to ubuntu is hoaryable
<mdz> fabbione: ok, so you will take care of moving the live CD X configuration over to use our config system rather than knoppix
<sabdfl> i agree the gui installer is more directfb territory
<fabbione> mdz: if i get the resources yes.
<jdub> daniels: (using fb doesn't rule out X...)
<ogra> what about kdrive ? 
<mdz> sabdfl: let's treat the live CD piece of it as part of the unification goal, and the reconfigure-on-hardware-change as a separate feature?
<sabdfl> fabbione: you will, it's a priority, in python
<fabbione> mdz: when i offered my help for the livecd, my ping was lost
<daniels> ogra: awful hardware support
<sabdfl> mdz: yes, that's what i was suggesting
<ogra> daniles: vesa ?
<daniels> ogra: not an option
<ogra> k
<fabbione> sabdfl: sorry.. i lost the contest...
<sabdfl> have a tool that looks at a store of "what was previously detected" and sees if that has changed
<sabdfl> fabbione: you will get the resources to unify live cd and installer x config in python
<mdz> fabbione: contest?
<fabbione> sabdfl: ok
<fabbione> mdz: typo
<fabbione> sabdfl: but that will kill the plan to configure X at debian-installer time
<fabbione> sabdfl: that is something that we can probably do for hoary
<mjg59> sabdfl: One issue with using directfb for the installer is that someone needs to write an accessibility interface for directfb/atk then
<mdz> fabbione: we don't need to configure X at debian-installer time; the current timing is OK for hoary
<mdz> mjg59: good call
<mjg59> X gives you already working a11y infrastructure
<Kamion> mjg59: text mode + speakup might make more sense for hoary
<sabdfl> mjg59: hmm... can we run x on directfb?
<mdz> however, using X in the installer would seem to be in conflict with Kamion's idea to support floppy installs :-)
<rburton> mailq
<mdz> sabdfl: yes
<mdz> sabdfl: well, on fb
<mjg59> Kamion: Speakup requires extra hardware, doesn't it?
<sabdfl> and we still have fall-back to text mode
<Kamion> mjg59: well, yeah, depends on the kind of a11y
<mdz> at present, GUI installer is not on the hoary list
<mdz> and we have many more items to review which are
<jdub> um
<mdz> so can we table that discussion for now?
<sabdfl> yes
<jdub> gui installer is on the hoary list, but it has sabdfl's question mark
<sabdfl> i won't commit to having a gui installer for hoary
<sabdfl> it will back us into a corner
<mdz> ok
<sabdfl> i've no problem with starting work on it
<mdz> I propose that we not attempt ppc64 for hoary
<mdz> there is currently no real vacuum for it to fill
<sabdfl> mdz: won't attempt any further arch's unless a community team steps up
<mdz> and it is a multiarch-wanting arch too
<sabdfl> if one does, we'll provide h/w
<doko> yes, that would need a toolchain update
<mdz> ok, consider it moved
<mdz> " LSB compliant i386 libraries on amd64"
<mdz> doko: this is 32-bit compatibility?
<doko> yes
<mdz> what does it entail?
<elmo> we'll need to do enough of ppc64 for G5 support, tho, right?
<elmo> [sorry, I'm late] 
<mdz> elmo: I expect we'll build a ppc64 kernel for the powerpc arch
<elmo> ok, cool
<mdz> noted in bugzilla and discussed with herbert
<elmo> it'd suck to not support our own buildds ;-)
<mdz> hey, we have our own h4x0red kernel for that
<Kamion> yeah, ppc64 kernel != ppc64 userspace
<mdz> elmo: you love custom kernels :-P
<sabdfl> nonetheless, elmo has a point
<mdz> doko: so what exactly would be involved in implementing this feature?
<mdz> I assume this would only provide basic support for compiling and running 32-bit apps
<mdz> since we are not going to do multiarch in the packaging system for hoary
<sabdfl> do they get a limited set of 32-bit libs to work with?
<sabdfl> is this how we currently do mozilla and oo.o?
<mdz> so that means a bi-arch gcc, and ia32-libs
<mdz> sabdfl: yes, that's ia32-libs
<dieman> heh, ubuntu is on /. again
<doko> hmm, thought that this is Tollef's domain? See #277852 for a current discussion, if/what is needed for proper i386 support. needed: a working biarch toolchain, agreement where to put the ia32 libraries
<mdz> if there is not yet agreement, then this is not something we should push for hoary
<mdz> the mention of LSB seems to imply that there is a standard
<mdz> Mithrandir is not here
<mdz> let's skip this item for now
<doko> wether ia32-libs is a good idea? some libs already have biarch support like ncurses, readline, etc. so maybe just add to these libraries the 32bit things.
<mdz> doko: sabdfl would like an essential python package
<ogra> regarding the support side on amd64 , there should be a home for things like flash......
<mdz> doko: is there anything in the current python2.3 package which could be split in order to simplify it?
<mdz> ogra: I think the only way to support i386 flash is to have an i386 firefox, which we don't want to do
<doko> yes, I looked back at the point where we had split it.
<ogra> mdz: oh..... the peole are crying a lot about flash...
<mdz> doko: there seems to be a fundamental conflict between providing the full python standard library, and having it be essential
<doko> codecs maybe make up a bit of code size, standard libraries which you don't need at a point of time... I'd prefer to have some use case for what we want with python at that point and then define the split.
<doko> should this essential python work without /usr?
<mdz> doko: perhaps we could provide all of the pure python stuff
<mdz> doko: good question
<Keybuk> perl-base works without /usr
<Keybuk> uh
<Keybuk> sorry
<mdz> no it doesn't :-)
<Keybuk> perl-base DOESN'T work without /usr
<sabdfl> doko, mdz, let's figure out the implementation separately
<mdz> ok
<doko> why stop at pure, and don't have the zlib module? this line is artificial.
<doko> ok
<mdz> " Raise default dpkg-reconfigure priority, adjust packages as necessary?"
<mdz> we already did that for warty
<sabdfl> :-)
<Keybuk> yeah, isn't that High already?
<Kamion> dpkg-reconfigure != debconf
<Kamion> dpkg-reconfigure's default priority is low
<mdz> ohh, right
<sabdfl> ah
<Kamion> what's the use case for raising it?
<Kamion> dpkg-reconfigure asks all questions by design
<mdz> Kamion: to make it more useful
<sabdfl> yes that causes the "million spurioous questions on reconfigure" experience
<Kamion> mdz: that would make it less useful, actually
<mdz> "all questions" is too many questions
<Kamion> sabdfl: reconfigure is a deliberate choice, though
<sabdfl> Kamion: those who want the full question set can ask for it
<Kamion> people WANT to see all questions :-)
<Kamion> (if they run dpkg-reconfigure)
<sabdfl> if they do, --priority=low
<mdz> Kamion: when we tell an Ubuntu user to run dpkg-reconfigure, they don't want to see all questions
<Keybuk> mdz: why would we tell a user to do that?
<sabdfl> reconfigure says "give me the same set of questions again"
<mdz> Keybuk: because it is often the simplest way to solve their proble
<mdz> m
<sabdfl> Keybuk: i think we will aim to provide a high level UI for that
* ogra agrees with mdz
<sabdfl> for example, inside aptitude, press a key to reconfigure a package
<Kamion> ok, don't think it should be as high as --priority=high though, medium feels better
<doko> sorry, a bit late: is python2.4 default for hoary?
<sabdfl> and the questions should be the same as the questions on install
<mdz> Kamion: yes, I think medium is appropriate
<mdz> Kamion: the idea is to exclude the "control freak" questions
<mdz> and just give them a basic level of configurability
<Kamion> sabdfl: that just doesn't work with a lot of debconf scripts though
<mdz> which is what medium should be
<Kamion> mdz: right, agreed
<sabdfl> Kamion: because they assume you've answered the question already?
<mdz> reconfigure should ask more questions than at install
<mvo_> sabdfl: synaptic support reconfigure via debconf (through the gnome debconf ui)
<mdz> because install should exclude questions which have a reasonable default
<Kamion> sabdfl: varies; they'll certainly often have different behaviour. debconf's arbitrarily scriptable
<sivang> what's the profile of an average Ubuntu user anyway? what can we expect of them?
<sabdfl> i think we are asking for users to go from b0rked to v87686ked
<mdz> but reconfigure should ask questions which have a reasonable default, and give the user the opportunity to change them
<Kamion> mdz: YES :-)
<Keybuk> sivang: ideally we don't have one; Ubuntu works for all users, not just the average one
<sabdfl> hold on
<sabdfl> how do you tell a user "you answered the wrong way at install, do this, and answer it differently"
<mdz> sabdfl: Kamion and I seem to be in agreement that what we want here is a default dpkg-reconfigure priority of 'medium'
<sabdfl> that's fine, if i can see a list of new questions that introduces :-)
<sivang> wouldn't it be wise to think up one, and then target it, and decide priorites by it (debconf)? surely we cannot target each and every user profile which might arise..
<Kamion> if we made it 'high', it would often end up asking fewer questions, which I think would be worse
<mdz> sabdfl: that is a problem of unsolvable complexity, I fear :-)
<jdub> sivang: (this is slightly more abstract than that)
<Kamion> we can attempt to produce one for base+desktop, probably
<sabdfl> kamion: i'd like to really define the set of questions that a user is ever likely to see
<mdz> it varies depending on arbitrary criteria
<fabbione> mdz: i don't have a very strong opinion on raising to medium, but i think changing it will create some kind of extra debugging work for the users when we have to ask to reconfigure with --priority=low
<sivang> or maybe let them choose the profile, and configure debconf accordingly ? (please excuse me if this is all babble)
<mdz> sabdfl: do you agree that reconfiguration should ask a different set of questions than at initial install, given that our goal for many packages (all of deskop) is that they not ask any questions at initial intsall?
<sabdfl> in fact, i don't mind if we do this, but it means i'm going to have to review every single "medium" question
<Keybuk> to be honest, I think I tend towards defaulting to --default-priority; as that's generally unsurprising
<Kamion> Keybuk: but will generally mean dpkg-reconfigure does absolutely nothing
<mdz> Keybuk: that does nothing in most cases
<Kamion> I don't think taking a useful command and turning it into a no-op is good
* mdz channels harder
<sivang> why not having it low priority install time, and raise it automatically on reconfigure? (assuming this requests for more control)
<Kamion> sabdfl: maybe we shouldn't be recommending dpkg-reconfigure in general ...
<sabdfl> ok, let's go with medium, but then you guys are going to have to put up with a lot of bugs from me in that regard :-)
<Keybuk> it still does the effect of the settings, as in postinst?
<mdz> this change falls under the heading of stuf that we should change early
<sabdfl> Kamion: need some tool to do it
<mdz> so that we can catch as much of the fallout as possible through routine testing
<sabdfl> yes
<sabdfl> sigh
<Keybuk> mdz: yeah, first thing type change
<Kamion> sabdfl: or, at least, for a very limited set of packages, like xserver-xfree86
<mdz> sabdfl: I think most of those bugs will be trivial ones
<sabdfl> Kamion: could you produce a script to mail me all of the questions in debconf, for main/restricted packages, that would be visible at medium or higher priority
<mdz> sabdfl: things which are medium and should be low
<mdz> sabdfl: the worst of it will be that we need to rewrite some text for the questions
<sabdfl> mdz: yes, we will need to, guaranteed
<Kamion> sabdfl: ok, will try
<sabdfl> Kamion: tvm
<mdz> Kamion: as long as you're taking on work, will you be the one to upload debconf with the default priority change for dpkg-reconfigure?
<Kamion> (sometimes priorities are programmatically determined, so it may be fun)
<Kamion> mdz: yeah, that's easy
<mdz> Kamion: it'll be on the list of things to break early, with your name next to it
<mdz> moving on
<mdz> SE Linux
<jdub> let's dump it
<mdz> this is a highly specialized project
<pitti> I would really like to see some easy support for MAC
<mdz> I don't think we need to do it in-house, but I would love to see a proof of concept from a third party
<Keybuk> if we want SE Linux, we need someone who knows all about it
<pitti> grsecurity/SELInux/RSBAC/Whatever
<sivang> Kamion : any example ?
<mdz> Keybuk: agreed
<jdub> yeah
<Keybuk> from what I can tell with my chats with them, there's an arch-like learning curve to it
<doko> pitti: MAC?
<pitti> Do we really want SELInux support?
<sabdfl> it's going to be a user nightmare if we fiddle with selinux
<pitti> doko: Mandatory Access Control
<thom> doko: mandatory access control
<mdz> sabdfl: it strikes me as something to do as a derivative
<pitti> Apart from the fact that SELInux is in upstream kernel, it is very complicated
<jdub> we just won't have the cycles to do it propery for hoary
<mdz> sabdfl: and then fold in once it is shown to work
<sabdfl> mdz: good call
<jdub> mdz: agree
<jdub> seubuntu
<Keybuk> and there's probably at least 6 months work on dpkg before it can even support it as well
<pitti> We should develop it in Hoary time and publish it in grumpy
<thom> yeah. fedora seem to be having a lot of problems getting it usable
<sabdfl> subuntu :-)
<mdz> next up is fresher and juicier glibc
<mjg59> Did Fedora go with SELinux in the end?
<daniels> sabdfl: is subuntu the distro with a root account per default?
<mdz> apparently, Debian's glibc is ages old
<jdub> mjg59: FC3 has a very very basic default configuration
<Keybuk> mjg59: backed most of it out to a policy just for things like ssh
<pitti> Can't we pick up something easier, like grsecurity or RSBAC?
<Keybuk> mdz: it isn't
<Kamion> mdz: it'll be updated right after sarge
<daniels> mjg59: yes, although far more toned down from fc2's aggressive policies
<azeem> mdz: jbailey was working on updating glibc, AFAIK
<Keybuk> mdz: it's one minor release behind
<Keybuk> unless I'm missing something entirely
<Kamion> mdz: it's only been frozen because we (Debian RMs) are bastards :)
<sabdfl> pitti: any of those things immediately takes us way out on a limb
<mdz> is BenHerrenschmidt here?
<doko> afaik, newer glibc is tightly coupled with newer gcc ... :(
<mdz> he proposed this, and might have some details about what it means
<elmo> mdz: no
<Keybuk> ftp://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/glibc/
<azeem> but he stopped a bit when he noticed sarge wasn't about to get released soonish
<thom> mdz: he's in .au, so most likely asleep
<jdub> mdz: no, but we should get more details from him about it
<Keybuk> ^ the latest there is 2.3.3
<Kamion> Keybuk: glibc's stopped making releases, you have to pull CVS
<jdub> mdz: happy to take an action
<mdz> ok, so is this simply a "track Debian" sort of thing, then?
<pitti> sabdfl: why? We shouldn't install it by default, but we could have apt-get install xxx-server-profile or xxx-desktop-profile
<Keybuk> Kamion: oh, I didn't know that
<elmo> mdz: I think so
<Keybuk> that's kinda scary
<doko> kamion: there is 2.3.3
<jdub> mdz: i can clarify it from him
<thom> (new glibc gets us NPTL on powerpc, amongst other things)
<azeem> Keybuk: glibc stopped doing proper releases, 2.3.3 is a sort-of stable snapshot from last year, AFAIK
<pitti> sabdfl: grsec/rsbac/lids only need kernel support and tiny userspace programs
<mdz> if sarge doesn't happen soon enough to get it from Debian, is it worth moving ahead of Debian?
<doko> thom: only with gcc-3.4
<mdz> i.e., what do we get out of newer glibc?
<Kamion> which basically means we need hard-core glibc experts on staff to make it work
<Keybuk> changing libc smells like abandoning binary compatibility with Debian to me
<mdz> 1. NPTL on powerpc
<jdub> mdz: can we pass on this and get more feedback from benh?
<mdz> jdub: ok, let's
<daniels> benh was saying that most of the problems with glibc were !(i386|amd64|powerpc), i.e. mostly NOTWARTY
<Kamion> since picking a working glibc out of CVS is generally experts' work
<mdz> jdub: will you get that feedback?
<daniels> (glibc -> CVS glibc)
<jdub> mdz: happy to take the action
<mdz> done
<mdz> next up, usplash
<sabdfl> no releases from glibc? nnaaaiiice
<sabdfl> kernel, glibc, the yellow submarine
* azeem suggests talking to jbailey for glibc
<mdz> sladen: are you here?
<Keybuk> no npmccallum either?
<jdub> azeem: (benh raised the issue)
<daniels> ah, mad phat startup
<mdz> usplash, for those unfamiliar, is the proposed boot splash implementation
<mdz> which works in userspace using the kernel framebuffer, rather than patching it
<daniels> i don't believe there is any contention over what's on the wiki right now
<sabdfl> ubusplash!
<mdz> it also involves some dbus magic to provide a nice progress indicator
<sabdfl> optional
<jdub> can we bring these items back together?
<mdz> jdub: which items?
<jdub> usplash
<daniels> mdz: not dbus until we can do some upstream hackery (libexpat in initrd, yuk)
<Keybuk> usplash -> have it if it's finished
<sabdfl> npmccallum won't be on the team for hoary
<daniels> most of the bits of usplash are reasonably small
<mdz> Keybuk: what we're here to decide is whether it will be done, and who will do it :-)
<Keybuk> sabdfl: oh?
<sabdfl> so we need to take this on internally or find a bounty candidate
<azeem> jdub: fair enough, but jbailey is a glibc maintainer and was working on it for Debian anyway
<daniels> sabdfl: it's almost certainly doable internally, IMO
<mjg59> Are we sure about being framebuffer based?
<daniels> mjg59: as opposed to ... ?
<mdz> mjg59: no, that's just current thinking
<sabdfl> Keybuk: grep -ir npmccallum ~scott/patches/warty
<mdz> if the implementor wants to do X or aalib, I'll at least listen :-)
<mjg59> I worry that using two different graphical mechanisms could result in weirdness
<mjg59> There'll always be some hardware that'll work with one and not the other
<sabdfl> is fedora using a newer glibc?
<daniels> sabdfl: write small fb blitter; write small co-ordination daemon; write novtswitch (done); make gdm and lsb init lib usplash-aware
<mdz> mjg59: we'll need to get framebuffer stuff into good shape eventually anyway
<sabdfl> daniels: don't trivialise the issues, x-platform for a start
<jdub> can we bountyise this to sladen?
<mdz> jdub: depends on sladen
<daniels> sabdfl: true
<Keybuk> sabdfl: so, uh, can someone update StaffOverview when people leave <g>
<thom> sabdfl: yes, fedora is pretty much running off head of CVS
<mjg59> mdz: This is sort of related to later stuff, but suspend/resume is going to be easier without framebuffer
<mjg59> Probably massively easier
<sabdfl> Keybuk: yes, sorry, i should have
<mjg59> (on x86, at least)
<mdz> mjg59: are the framebuffer issues unsolvable?
<mjg59> mdz: vesafb is never going to work across suspend/resume, because there's no way to reconfigure the mode
<jdub> mdz: can we assign a 'project manager' to the goal, to sort out bounty, delivery, etc?
<mjg59> vesafb-tng might be a better plan, but it's a big divergence from mainstream
<mdz> jdub: we should decide whether one of us will do it, or bounty it out
<mdz> it's looking like a bounty sort of thing so far
<jdub> yes, i think it's a bounty
<mdz> unless someone here has a very strong interest in it
<mdz> ok, bounty
<jdub> not sure it's critical enough to manage internally
<mdz> " Do something smart with SMART?"
<jdub> hold on
<sabdfl> mjg59: give me a quick rundown of the alternative options to fb for ubusplash?
<jdub> can we assign someone to manage the bounty?
<mdz> sabdfl: X
<mdz> jdub: I will
<jdub> ok
<mjg59> sabdfl: Most straightforward is to start X /very/ early
<daniels> fb or x, and i personally think x is a very bad idea; i think what's on the wiki is current best practice
<mjg59> Which is what Fedora do
<mdz> the SMART proposition would involve getting the SMART tools installed by default, and having them do something useful by default
<mdz> ideally the user should get some notification when their disk is failing, etc.
<jdub> mdz: sounds underspecified
<sabdfl> mdz: silbs and i have a PA starting in two weeks who can carry the load  of bounty state tracking
<mdz> jdub: indeed
<daniels> mjg59: yes
<jdub> sabdfl: (that's good news)
<mdz> sabdfl: administrative or technical?
<LeeColleton> SMART tools don't work with SATA drives last time I checked
<daniels> mjg59: but they also start kdrive to track init, which is just bong imo
<sabdfl> mdz: purely admin
<daniels> mjg59: note that the current plans involve starting x very early
<Keybuk> daniels: like, putting X in initrd ?!
<mdz> sabdfl: ok, so I'll expect to continue to track technical progress
<Keybuk> loading ramdisk ......
<sabdfl> daniels: but not THAT early
<mdz> Keybuk: not as crazy as it sounds
<Keybuk> still loading ramdisk .....
<daniels> Keybuk: no
<daniels> sabdfl: right.
<sabdfl> mdz: i think we should have an internal contact for each bounty, clearly, but not always you
<sabdfl> it will be good to develop a little management capacity in the rest of the team too
<daniels> basically, start the system, kick in usplash, get a logo out to framebuffer early and drop in some icons and status text; after network init (the hostname *cannot* change under X in current implementations), start X in the background
<mdz> sabdfl: less work for me is usually acceptable :-)
<daniels> when gdm has a login screen ready for the displaying, switch over to that
<mjg59> If we want framebuffer functionality and we want suspend/resume, we're going to have to modify every single framebuffer driver
<sabdfl> mjg59: can you get rid of framebuffer post-boot?
<daniels> sabdfl: framebuffer 4 lyf, i'm afraid
<mdz> the SMART thing is underspecified; I'll put it on a list of vague stuff, and if someone wants to come along and propose something concrete, we'll revisit it
<mjg59> sabdfl: Not trivially
<sivang> sabdfl : could there be a more thorugh explenation for the bounties on the wary page? IMHO it should have already been moved to Hoary
<jdub> sabdfl, mdz: a number of the goals with my name attached are ones i expect to manage, rather than do
<Kamion> mjg59: that's kind of unavoidable on powerpc, mind ...
<sivang> sabdfl : for example, what is doc-base registeration?
<mdz> sivang: several of the goals assume a thorough working knowledge of Debian packaging
<mdz> which would be necessary to complete them anyway
<thom> sivang: every thing that ships documentation needs to register siad documentation with doc-base
<mjg59> Kamion: PPC is less of a problem - people have already dealt with that
<Kamion> mjg59: oh, the modifications aren't quite portable?
<mdz> let's take the usplash design discussion offline
<mdz> we have much more ground to cover
<mjg59> Kamion: The current suspend/resume code relies on OF doing some reinitialisation
<mdz> next up is the question of whether we should handle NTP differently for Hoary
<mdz> using ntpd rather than just running ntpdate at boot
<Keybuk> aren't we doing ntpdate+ntpd now?
<mdz> no, we currently only do ntpdate
<lamont> Keybuk: "No listening ports"
<Keybuk> ahh, it's in the seed but doesn't do anything?
<doko> that was basically the delay problem, when you don't have a network connection?
<mdz> this proposal came from the fact that gnome-system-tools integrates with ntpd
<mdz> and not ntpdate
<lamont> it would be nice to have an ntpd listening on the port by default.
<mdz> so it has a little checkbox which will install ntpd, and then let you configure which servers to sync with
<lamont> then again, the current ntpd is pretty fat
<ogra> the delay could easy be solved by a poing in the bootscript
<Keybuk> lamont: it'd be nice to have cups listening, http listening, etc.
<mdz> it'd be nice to get rooted
<daniels> i think ntp would be much more doable if we were smart about miitool or iwtool or whatever for link beat
<lamont> Keybuk: heh. yeah
<Keybuk> but then we're security swiss-cheese
<sabdfl> can ntpdate be run in the background?
<mdz> sabdfl: yes, it can
<jdub> daniels: (NetworkManager)
<mdz> in fact, I think it ignores errors currently anyway
<mdz> but the delay is a separate issue
<mdz> ntpdate and ntpd do different things
<sabdfl> let's not do ntpd unless we really have to 
<lamont> very different
<Keybuk> you need both
<sabdfl> i'd be much happier with a cron'd ntpdate
<doko> the delay isn't ntp specific. needs a mod to /etc/nsswitch.conf
<Keybuk> ntpd keeps the clock in sync, but will cowardly not sync it if it's too far away
<Keybuk> ntpdate syncs it, and then leaves
<mdz> right
<sabdfl> yes, ntpdate is a one-timerr
<Keybuk> sabdfl: that's what we used to do at Demon to avoid the port
<elmo> the cowardly thing is actually a feature tho
<mdz> we decided way back in london that we wanted ntpdate as a default
<Keybuk> (well, you have the port, but only for a few seconds)
<lamont> sabdfl: anyone relying on filesystem timestamps would be very unhappy with cron'ed ntpdate
<sabdfl> but there's nthing stopping us from doing it regularly
<mdz> so the obvious course would be to change g-s-t to integrate with our ntpdate package
<mdz> rather than with ntpd
<sabdfl> lamont: where would you rely on filesystem timestamps?
<lamont> make
<elmo> oh, btw, orthogonally, can we pretty please de-root ntpd, even if we don't install it by default
<mdz> jdub: is that a reasonable proposition?
<Keybuk> lamont: anyone relying on filesystem timestamps that much would have configured ntpd themselves
<mdz> elmo: good call
<sabdfl> ok
<elmo> the ntpdate-regularly thing also breaks regular cron jobs
<jdub> mdz: 'synchronise now' or 'set up regular cron job'? i'm kinda uncomfortable with the cron job too
<mdz> jdub: 'synchronise now' button, and configure servers
<elmo> as time just, err, doesn't behave like time.. whereas with ntp, it just speeds up or down :)
<sabdfl> seems we have the same problem either way
<mdz> I'm not particularly hot on cron either
<lamont> Keybuk: make users don't particularly care that time is accurate to within hours, they just care that it's monotonically increassing
<jdub> mdz: that'd be great
<mdz> jdub: bounty?
<jdub> mdz: yeah
<Kamion> without regular ntpdate, time is at least approximately monotonic. :-)
<mdz> jdub: someone from gnome?
<pitti> sabdfl: rather than cron, wouldn't /etc/network/ifup.d/ make much more sense? I. e. for dialup users
<jdub> mdz: yes
<sabdfl> can we use ntpdate to nudge the clock syncing algorithms in the right direction?
<Kamion> sabdfl: that's more what ntpd's for really
<Keybuk> sabdfl: ntpd is the clock-syncing algorithms
<jdub> mdz: have a candidate for quite a few of these
<lamont> sabdfl: all ntpdate does is yank time to the current time
<mdz> ok, so that's on the bounty list
<lamont> ntpd slews the local clock to keep it there
<elmo> if the problem is the open port, can't we just bounty someone to fix that?
<mdz> next up is speeding up the boot process
<elmo> or is it inherent to ntp's design?
<Keybuk> elmo: that's because ntpd uses udp, isn't it?
<mdz> Keybuk: yes, but it could still be improved
<Keybuk> mdz: didn't you rewrite hotplug in Perl?
<mjg59> ntpdate can make the clock run backwards and confuse everything
<mdz> Keybuk: yes, and then reverted it because perl needs /usr
<sabdfl> *cough* *splutter*
<Keybuk> mdz: I'd be tempted with a little C parser for that
<mdz> Keybuk: yes
<mjg59> If you're running slow, ntpdate will make your screensaver come on
* enrico leaves the meeting
<mdz> Keybuk: but ssshh, before sabdfl insists that it be rewritten in python :-)
<enrico> Please reach me in the next days if you need anything
<sabdfl> "faster"
<mdz> mjg59: that seems like a bug in xscreensaver
<mjg59> ntpd just makes your clock go faster or slower until it reaches the right time
<Keybuk> speed is really critical for it, and the last thing you want is to haul Perl or Python into memory ... that's not going to be hugely faster than shell
<mdz> Keybuk: hauling perl into memory was a big win
<mjg59> mdz: The results from gettimeofday() suddenly change...
<sabdfl> is hotplug very complex? why not bounty a C implementation?
<Keybuk> sabdfl: *shrug* I could do it in a few hours
<mjg59> I'm off home - back in 15 minutes or so
<mdz> sabdfl: it's not very complex at all
<Keybuk> I'm reasonably sure I wrote one and have it on my disk somewhere
<sabdfl> Keybuk: go for it
<mdz> but it's easier to maintain in shell
<Keybuk> in fact, I *know* I wrote one
<sabdfl> is it the shell that makes it slow?
<mdz> it's the fact that it uses shell *exclusively* that makes it slow
<sabdfl> or is it hardware delays?
<Kamion> sabdfl: parsing in shell tends to be slow, you have to fork lots of processes
<mdz> I suggest that we rewrite certain bits in C
<mdz> and not the whole thing
<sabdfl> i thought they put in a deliberate delay to avoid some race condition in specific kernel versions
<Kamion> it's just the modules.pcimap parser isn't it?
<Keybuk> mdz: I was thinking the pcimap etc. parsers
<mdz> Kamion: that's most of it, yes
<mdz> Keybuk: exactly
<mdz> that's what I rewrote in perl
<doko> we could use ash as /bin/sh to make things a bit faster.
<mdz> and saved about 0.3 seconds per device
<Keybuk> and I know I wrote one for i-d; so I've just got to find it
<mdz> another item under the same heading is starting gdm earlier
<daniels> mdz: as I mentioned before
<mdz> that's a large perceived performance benefit
<mdz> I think we were in agreement that we should just do it
<mdz> early on, and fix whatever breaks
<daniels> you can start gdm as soon as you know the hostname won't change from under you
<Keybuk> mdz: stick the hotplug parser under me, it'll give me something to do during test case runs :p
<daniels> if the hostname changes under X, you're totally screwed
<mdz> Keybuk: ok
<mdz> need someone to take responsibility for gdm
<mdz> since that's on the early breakage list
<Keybuk> do we know how early it *can* be started?
<daniels> might as well take that one
<daniels> Keybuk: i have a very good idea
<mdz> Keybuk: I've started it as the first thing in runlevel 2
<mdz> with on il leffects
<Keybuk> it probably needs all the Utopia stuff for when the user logs in
<mdz> no ill effects
<mdz> daniels: ok, yours
<mdz> next up, we have some kernel stuff
<mdz> which I think is probably bounty-oriented
<pitti> Keybuk: hal must be running, the other stuff is gnome session
<Keybuk> mdz: I have it at 21 ... I needed alsa, dbus and fam loaded first
<mdz> oh, speaking of dbus
<mdz> the other side of the start-gdm-early coin is displaying startup notifications for the things that start after it
<mdz> with a little dbus magic
<daniels> mdz: usplash
<mdz> overlap with usplash
<mdz> yes
<daniels> mdz: (the usplash daemon just either writes out to the fb or X as is appropriate)
<mdz> anyway, the next few items on the agenda are fixing the various warts in how we load kernel modules
<daniels> personally, i think that is wholly subsumed by usplash
<mdz> the fact that IDE stuff doesn't Just Work is the big one
<mdz> also figuring out the right strategy for drivers which are no longer autoloaded with udev
<mdz> unless anyone here has a strong interest and the domain knowledge for it, I suggest it be a bounty
<Kamion> having mount load loop when needed would clean up a lot of user questions
<fabbione> mdz: bounty
<thom> mdz: agree
<Kamion> but yes, bounty
<mdz> Kamion: having it autoloaded somehow, whether it's mount's job or something else's needs to be determined
<seb128> bounty yes
<mdz> " Go back to the LiveSeed? idea to provide a more demonstration-worthy LiveCD?"
<lamont> mdz: that has a pre-req of "make liveCD seeed fit..."
<jdub> that's probably a non-issue given the size of the livecd + winfoss bits
<mdz> this seems to raise the question of whether we want to try to make the live CD snazzier than the default desktop
<Kamion> if LiveSeed is a strict subset or superset of each of the other seeds, that's fine, otherwise tricky in germinate
<jdub> i think we do
<jdub> for instance, i'd like to have a package of demo files
<mdz> as you say, I don't think we can add much due to space constraints
<Kamion> desktop-plus-some-stuff-from-supported would work
<daniels> live dvd?
<Kamion> (or desktop-minus-some-stuff)
<mdz> Kamion: yeah, that's what it'd be
<jdub> Kamion: yeah, +/- would be good
<jdub> but all within supported
<lamont> jdub: but not both
<ogra> daniels: wont work in cd roms
<Keybuk> - ttf-baemuk! </lamont>
<Kamion> but if we want to add some bits from supported and take away pieces, the germinate-fu gets complicated
<sabdfl> do we have space?
<lamont> sabdfl: after tossing celestia, I think we're at 650MB or so
<jdub> sabdfl: winfoss makes it hard
<mdz> sabdfl: it's very tight
<sabdfl> then i vote for parity between livecd and installed
<lamont> 643MB
<jdub> anyway, this could be a derivative livecd
<jdub> for demos
<sabdfl> yes
<jdub> and stuff
<mdz> I think we should probably leave the package list alone for hoary
<mdz> for the live CD
<mdz> i.e., match desktop
<jdub> sabdfl: parity for the official livecd, yeah
<sabdfl> we could well have derivatives in place for hoary
<lamont> jdub: maybe a demoCD which puts your cool hoary packages in insead of WinFOSS?
<mdz> " Optionally encrypted home directories that work out of the box (MartinPitt?)"
<jdub> lamont: yeah
<mdz> pitti: would you like to say something about this?
<Kamion> partman was designed with support for encrypted filesystems in mind
<pitti> I played around a little today with several implementations
<pitti> I won't discuss them here, I will mail
<Kamion> but it's not been implemented in partman yet
<pitti> I just wnat to ask if there is consensus that we want support for it
<lamont> I would like my USB dongle to automount after asking me for a passphrase...
<mdz> pitti: I'm not sure exactly what it is
<mdz> pitti: would this be cryptoloop stuff?
<pitti> IMHO it would be a great thing for laptops
<mdz> I think it's a lot of complexity for the default install
<fabbione> pitti: i would like it hounestly
<pitti> not necessarily cryptoloop
<pitti> from the user's view nothing changes
<Kamion> pitti: are we talking about having /home be a cryptofs, created in the installer?
<sabdfl> not by default
<pitti> if he logs in, his homedir is transparently decrypted
* jdub likes the idea of crypto partition gui love, but not convinced about supporting crypto home stuf
<pitti> Kamion: I think it needs installer support to have it from the beginning
<Keybuk> crypto home sounds slow to me
<Kamion> pitti: indeed
<jdub> consider that people will go, "ooh! this smells like security!"
<pitti> it should be optional
<Kamion> sabdfl: right, I don't think it's a default thing
<pitti> It does not make sense for desktops
<pitti> the user should deliberately choose it
<mdz> I don't see why /home should be special
<jdub> pitti: can we support it sanely?
<pitti> we don't need to encrypt the whole partition
<Kamion> partman may grow this sort of stuff if we just wait for the Anton Zinoviev machine to grind out code :-)
<mdz> if you want encryption, it should be across the board
<pitti> encrypting just some files or directories is actually less hassle
<sabdfl> mdz: you know a user is around when you want to access it
<doko> pitti: why not, but you would have to mount separate ones for /home/*
<pitti> but it does not make sense to encrypt e. g. /us
<pitti> I mean /usr
<pitti> doko: not mount, just encrypt the directories separately
<pitti> cryptoloop is not the only (and not the best) implementation
<mdz> ok, let's discuss this on ubuntu-devel and hash it out
<sabdfl> so to speak
<pitti> so is there general interest?
<mdz> sabdfl: har har
<amu> Kamion: you cannot feeC[Cl the differents between a crypred dev and a normal. Computeres are too fast.    
<jdub> pitti: i'm concerned about supportability
<pitti> That was the only question, I will work out details and bring it to the list
<mdz> pitti: it's interesting, yes
<mdz> whether we can and will do it depends on the details
<pitti> jdub: I will work that out
<ogra> waht about repairing a broken FS pitti ?
<sabdfl> pitti: it may be something i prefer a bounty / contractor to do, rather than internal resources
<pitti> ogra: I don't see what's different. e2fsck does not care whether the data looks like garbage
<pitti> sabdfl: your choice :-)
<ogra> pitti im ean dd rescue on a broken disk i.e.
<LeeColleton> WRT encryption.. will there be a GUI key manager for hoary?  The new seahorse goes a long way towards integration with the desktop.
<pitti> If we want to do it inhouse, I would like to deal with it
<pitti> ogra: of course the rescue copy will still be encrypted
<mdz> LeeColleton: doesn't gnome-keyring-manager handle that stuff?
<pitti> ogra: you need the same password to decrypt it
<jdub> LeeColleton: (new seahorse will be considered)
<jdub> mdz: no
* mvo_ likes the idea of encrypted /home
<ogra> but can i decrypt easily
<jdub> mdz: that's for gnome-keyring (not gpg related)
<bob2> mithrandir was working on some dm-crypt gui stuff, iirc
<pitti> ogra: it is transparent
* mjg59 is back
<ogra> pitti: k
<Keybuk> my god, we're nearly a quarter of the way though
<pitti> ogra: it could be encrypted with your login password
<pitti> ogra: and we need a PAM module for this, but there are solutions
<ficusplanet> What are you guys thinking in regards to mono for hoary?
<mdz> right, moving on
<jdub> LeeColleton: (can you put it on the HoaryHedgehog/SupportedSeed proposals list please?)
<mdz> if anyone has suggestions that are not already on the list, please discuss them on the ubuntu-devel mailing list after the meeting
<jdub> ficusplanet: (we're working to an agenda, see HH feature goals)
<ogra> pitti: as long as i can repair it with, say knoppix ....if nothing else is handy
<ficusplanet> jdub, thanks
<mdz> we have enough to discuss with what is on the list; the page has been open for suggestions for a long time now
<pitti> ogra: depends on the concrete implementation. Repairing an fs is always possible, though
<mdz> next up, kernel unification
<mdz> this is herbert's domain
<ogra> pitti: :)
<mdz> I think we know exactly what needs to be done
<jdub> mdz: (btw, are you modifying the page as we go?)
<mdz> jdub: I'm making notes and will replace the page wholesale
<LeeColleton> jdub: where is the proposals list?
<jdub> mdz: ok
<mdz> what about inotify?
<jdub> LeeColleton: HoaryHedgehog/SupportedSeed
<jdub> mdz: should definitely go in, something for herbert
<mdz> jdub: has it been submitted upstream?
<jdub> yes
<jdub> not accepted yet
<mdz> ok
<Keybuk> inotify seems to be the way forward
<mdz> framebuffer-based bootsplash is superseded by usplash
<Keybuk> and it makes fam+portmap go away :)
<jdub> (yay!)
<Keybuk> (gamin does too, but it makes the whole problem easier)
<Kamion> mdz: kernel unification> restricted-modules too
<mdz> Kamion: hmm?
<sabdfl> ANNOUNCEMENT: we got our first customer for a tech support contract today END ANNOUNCEMENT :-)
<fabbione> cool!
<lamont> WOOOHOOO!!!!!
<seb128> yeah :)
<ogra> congrats
<mdz> sabdfl: EXCITEMENT wonderful! END EXCITEMENT
<doko> canonical ltd? ;-)
* mvo_ is happy about that
<sabdfl> keep going :-)
<Kamion> mdz: linux-restricted-modules and the udebs of same
<mdz> Kamion: yes, includes that
<mdz> I'll make an explicit note
<sabdfl> w.r.t. kernel, i've discussed creating a six-month release of 2.6 for broader use than ubuntu
<sabdfl> with herbert
<mdz> which I think is a fantastic idea
<jdub> rocking
<sabdfl> it would be timed to our release schedule, since it's our core funding, but the idea would be to build a small community around it
<sabdfl> for the smaller distros
<doko> sabdfl: what does this mean? two kernel upgrades per year?
<sabdfl> doko: yes, in a predictable release schedule
<sabdfl> because at the moment, we have crack from upstream
<mdz> moving on, we have a bunch of installer stuff
<mdz> tops of which is the controversial gui installer
<doko> nice idea, that would include the binary tools needed for restricted modules?
<mdz> sabdfl: gui installer decision?
<sabdfl> not for hoary
<mdz> ok, pushing it back
<mdz> kickstart
<sabdfl> no problem starting down the road, balanced against hoary priorities
<Kamion> GUI installer status: boots with much hackery, nothing too fundamentally painful; need debconf protocol extensions to make it be a good UI; will need coordination with #debian-boot folks; recommend starting early even if we don't finish for hoary
<pitti> what's kickstart?
<sabdfl> yes please!
<mdz> pitti: unattended semi-custom installs based on a config file
<Kamion> pitti: Red Hat mass deployment thing
<jdub> kickstart == RH compatible pre-seed format
<pitti> thx
<mjg59> The RH implementation was moderately sucky when I played with it
<sabdfl> does it have to be RH-compatible? would that be the hard part?
<mjg59> Making it similar to RH would ease transition
<Kamion> kickstart's specification looks remarkably similar to d-i preseed when you look at it; it says things like "if you don't answer a question, the installer will ask the user"
<jdub> sabdfl: the format, yes; the data, no
<Kamion> sabdfl: sysadmins of my acquaintance would kill for it
<Kamion> RH-compatibility
<mdz> I think the useful subset of RH-compatibility would not be that hard
<Kamion> however, I believe that it's "just" a format translation job
<jdub> kickstart generation guis already exist, etc.
<Kamion> for the bits that usually vary between distros, sysadmins are already used to having different fragments for RH/SuSE, etc.
<mdz> anyway, kickstart is something we'll do for hoary, but needs spec work
<mjg59> Kickstart would be a very good thing to push back into Debian
<Kamion> mjg59: yep
<mdz> next up, the fancy keyboard selector
<mdz> smells like bounty to me
<Kamion> there's localization-config in Debian
<fabbione> mdz: i will be very glad to get rid of X keyboard management
<mjg59> (Regardless of the reality of things, some people are feeling like http://unstable.buildd.net/index-i386.html - obviously useful chunks of infrastructure make life better)
<Kamion> that's Konstantinos Margaritis' work (Skole)
<mdz> localization-config is like what we do now for X
<mdz> the fancy selector is something much fancier :-)
<Keybuk> fabbione: will X.org still work with the GNOME Keyboard Preferences stuff?
<Kamion> ah, I thought l-c was better, haven't looked in detail yet
<mdz> this is the thing which deduces your layout by having you type things
<daniels> Keybuk: yes
<Kamion> aha
<mdz> and uses that to seed everything which needs keyboard layout info
<fabbione> Keybuk: i don't know yet
<mdz> console and X
<mdz> it requires some fairly broad knowledge about layouts and their differences
<fabbione> mdz: we use the same code for X now and it doens't look that good considering the bugs we got
<mdz> fabbione: this is not the same thing, it is a different project
<fabbione> mdz: we need to involve the console-data maintainer to do the right thing
<daniels> the problem is the zero-question assumption
<daniels> some people in the czech republic have us-layout keyboards
<mdz> we will not guess as we do not
<mdz> now
<mdz> we will ask once, and ask very thoroughly
<daniels> right
<mdz> ok, going on the bounty list
<Keybuk> Language, Timezone and Keyboard are sensible questions to ask everybody
<Keybuk> even MS ask them
<mdz> hotplug installer we already covered as part of unifying hardware detection
<Keybuk> though highlighting the most common answer is a win
<fabbione> Keybuk: our problem is sync X and console
<mdz> " support for multiple network devices of same type"
<daniels> mdz: bountying out to someone with very good keyboard knowledge (of which there are very few) is recommended
<mdz> Kamion: ?
<Kamion> mdz: I don't know what that is?
<mdz> neither do I
<Kamion> mdz: maybe it's ISDN bonding or something
<Keybuk> I thought hotplug solved that?
<mdz> I certainly hope not
<Keybuk> assuming he's talking about the 2.4-era of having to tell the module to create eth0 and eth1 type things
<Kamion> mdz: whatever it is, it stinks of bounty or "wait for Debian to do it" to me :-)
<jdub> might be refering to ifrename things
<mdz> marking it as not-enough-info
<mdz> " Option to set up proxy/authentication before attempting first apt-get update"
<mdz> this one would require sabdfl approval to ask another question in every install
<Kamion> the code's there, but it fell to the "fewer questions" axe
<fabbione> mdz: we explicitly killed that question if we could reach archive.u.c
<mdz> right
<Keybuk> what's the loss with the way we do it now?  I thought we tested
<mdz> but there has been user demand for it
<Keybuk> fabbione: indeed, don't we test and then ask if it fails
<Kamion> fabbione: but do we ever ask that question? I've never seen it
<mdz> Keybuk: what we lose is caching proxies
<lamont> just because I can reach a.u.c doesn't mean I want to go that path..
<mdz> which is a big win for mass installs
<mdz> sabdfl: ?
<fabbione> Kamion: yes, we ask if we cannot reach archive
<Keybuk> isn't that what custom is for?
<Kamion> fabbione: I think that code might be buggy, because I would have seen that question.
<fabbione> Kamion: but that happens with choose-mirror
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:mdz] : Hoary kickoff meeting
<lamont> fabbione: define "reach"
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:mdz] : Hoary kickoff meeting || Agenda: http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/HoaryKickoffMeeting
<fabbione> lamont: wget a Package file or a Release.
<fabbione> lamont: can't remember
<lamont> ok
<doko> tell the user to pull the plug if wants proxy support
<mdz> ok, we'll leave this one as pending a decision, since the code is already there and just needs to be switched on
<Kamion> let's file a bug on that and move on
<mdz> " CD-based upgrade?"
<lamont> doko: sadly, pulling the plug just means you don't get prompted for _any_ network source.
<lamont> or does it....
<mdz> the idea of that one would be to be able to insert a Hoary CD on a Warty machine and have an upgrade happen
<Keybuk> mdz: would be nice if you could put the CD in and it do the right thing
<Keybuk> should be pretty trivial too?
<Kamion> is that apt-cdrom-style, or boot from CD (a.k.a. crack)?
<lamont> as in auto-run?
<mvo_> mdz: with some kind of auto-run?
<mdz> Kamion: autorun type thing
<mdz> Kamion: not boot from CD
<Kamion> mmmkay
<doko> lamont: anyway it would counter intuitive to pull the plug for configuring some network stuff ;)
<mdz> we have no autorun in warty, but that'd be the general idea
<jdub> autorun is off by default
<fabbione> but do we have some sort of autorun in place that can take care of warty -> hoary?
<mdz> double-click and have it run apt-cdrom, change sources.list and go
<Kamion> right-click -> upgrade would be nice
<lamont> mdz: sounds like something we'd add in hoary to take advantage of with grumpy, no?
<fabbione> ok
<mdz> lamont: we can do it for hoary, it's just a double-click rather than autorun
<sabdfl> (re proxy conf, sounds useful in corporate setting, like kickstart, perhaps with a boot-time command)
<Keybuk> lamont: make it an executable on the CD ... you put the CD in and run something on it
<mdz> put something in the root of the CD called "DO THE UPGRADE PLEASE".sh
<mvo_> mdz: I can take it
<Kamion> sabdfl: you could easily preseed it
<Kamion> sabdfl: (modulo tweaks to make sure preseeding works for that)
<sabdfl> kamion: agreed, useful for those who need it, not necessary to ask otherwise
<mvo_> fits with the upgrade-center idea that Mitario proposed
<mdz> sabdfl: I don't think we talked about the CD-based upgrade; what's your opinion?
<sabdfl> i like it
<mdz> ok
<mdz> I'm happy for mvo_ to work on it
<sabdfl> "good to have"
<mdz> it should be a fairly small project
<sabdfl> not sure it has to be automatic
<Keybuk> it should be pretty trivial ... the CD is an APT archive anyway
<mdz> I think it would be very slick for it to be automatic, post-hoary
<mdz> but anyway that's the easy part
<sabdfl> not *too* automatic though :-)
<mdz> as automatic as other autorun stuff, i.e. prompt for confirmation first
<lamont> and sudo password
<Keybuk> mdz: auto-run of binaries signed by a key in a keyring type thing?
* Kamion mails sabdfl a batch of trojaned CDs, just for fun
* sabdfl installs everything Kamion sends me, just for fun
<Kamion> :-)
<mdz> " Install libglide3 library when one of the supported 3dfx cards is detected"
<lamont> Kamion: I was just going to burn one to carry around with me.. :-)
<Keybuk> -> desktop seed suggestion
<mdz> this has a question from Kamion next to it which doesn't seem to have been answered
<mdz> daniels: do you know wha tit's about?
<sabdfl> isn't libglide3 toxic^Wproprietary?
<fabbione> mdz: it's not dangerous to install libglide3
<mjg59> sabdfl: Not for years
<fabbione> sabdfl: no
<mjg59> 3DFX GPLed it before going under
<mdz> libglide3 is dlopened when using some cards or something?
<mjg59> It's needed for DRI on Voodoo3/4/5/6
<sabdfl> so let's make it part of X
<fabbione> mdz: X uses it if the driver is 3dfx and if there is a compatible board
<mdz> ok
<mdz> so, yes, desktop seed suggestion
<fabbione> mdz: yes, it's dlopened
<mjg59> Yeah, it's utterly harmless
<mdz> " installer bootable from floppy (for older systems that don't boot from CD/network)"
<daniels> libglide3 is fine for desktopseed
<bob2> fabbione: can it emulate GL?
<mjg59> Except for its crackful build system
<mdz> Kamion: ?
<daniels> (sorry, just trying to figure out why my laptop's /home got shut down)
<Kamion> mdz: that's fairly trivial, I only disabled it for warty because we didn't have time to test it
<Kamion> we've had a lot of requests for it
<fabbione> bob2: it is for GL
<bob2> fabbione: ah. thanks.
<mdz> Kamion: ok, added to the list of stuff to switch on early and start testing
<mdz> " installer bootable from USB drive (for laptops without CD drives)"
<mdz> that would be extremely cool
* fabbione did it once
<pitti> d-i boots nicely from USB
<daniels> should work fine
<Keybuk> another Kamion plaything
<Kamion> pretty much likewise; I propose putting the netboot kernel and initrd in a form conveniently ddable to USB
<fabbione> .. to bad i didn't have any device that could boot from USB
<doko> nice to have it for our shop: memory stick preloaded with warty/hoary :)
<Kamion> Debian supports this, but they do it by telling you to put a businesscard ISO on the USB stick
<Keybuk> doko: you can fit warty on a Laks watch at the moment :)
<Kamion> since we don't have businesscard ISOs and Warty won't fit on most sticks we need to take a slightly different approach, but it won't take long
<sivang> 500mb in it?
<sivang> ?
<pitti> it works without an image, just the initrd and the kernel (and syslinux)
<mdz> ok, let's take a brief diversion and talk about the laptop goals
<Keybuk> sivang: 512MB
<sabdfl> hmm... think we can keep hoary under 512MB?
<mdz> because mjg59 can't stay much longer
<pitti> My usbstick just needs 4 MB for a network d-i
<mjg59> Sorry - feeling miserably unwell
<jdub> sabdfl: unlikely
<Kamion> (I have to go in about 40 minutes, BTW)
<mdz> the big laptop goal is going to be suspend support
<mjg59> Let's make this quick then
<mdz> mjg59: what's our strategy for that, regarding ACPI vs. swsusp etc.
<sabdfl> software suspend?
<mjg59> Suspend to disk is fairly easy, with the possible exception of nvidia
<mjg59> There's some drivers that could do with fixups, but in most cases that's straightforward (and it's major community love)
<mdz> this is definitely something we should break early
<mdz> what changes do we need to make?
<mjg59> SuSE are shipping with swsusp enabled by default in 9.2, so there's no strong reason not to include it
<mjg59> It's a kernel patch plus some modifications to let it work with initrd
<mdz> mjg59: and also changing acpi-support to enable it by default?
<mjg59> Yeah
<mdz> what about acpi S3? do we care at all?
<jdub> swsusp requires swap >= ram?
<mjg59> S3 is, in almost all cases, preferable to StD
<fabbione> what about all the problems we have with "boot with acpi=off"?
<mjg59> jdub: No
<mjg59> jdub: Except in extremely pathological cases
<mdz> mjg59: so what will the default action be, for sleep button, lid close, etc.?
<daniels> mdz: s3 is nice but really, really hard to get right
<daniels> mdz: needs lots of testing and brute-forcing as to which modules need to get removed
<Keybuk> s4 is too heavy-weight for lid close, I'd say
<mjg59> mdz: S3 has an outside chance of being useful early enough for Hoary
<daniels> mdz: i'm making acpi-support-x40 more generic, so we can just slot in different module lists
<mdz> mjg59: what's the change that we'll make in the next week or so in order to start testing it?
<sabdfl> "outside chance" is not something we should aim for
<mdz> mjg59: swsusp?
<mjg59> mdz: swsusp is in 2.6.9 and works well, but needs patching to work with an initrd rather than a monolithic kernel
<sivang> I couldn't not spot the "excellent documentation" feature. is this going to be discussed here?
<sabdfl> that sounds doable
<sivang> being a hoary feature goal.
<amu> mdz: you need double sawp as ram
<amu> swap
<mdz> amu: ??
<sabdfl> sivang: let mdz set the pace
<mjg59> amu: No
<jdub> sivang: (we're not there yet)
<sivang> ok, sorry.
<amu> mdz: sw susp
<mdz> sivang: we've skipped ahead to accomodate mjg59 having the plague
<mjg59> There are three main issues with S3
<amu> mjg59: no? 
<mjg59> 1) hardware where it just doesn't work
<mdz> ok, it sounds like swsusp is what we should start testing for hoary
<sivang> mdz : ok, we can always dicuss this on CC meeting
<mjg59> The VIA craptop is an example of this. I'm working on it, mildly in touch with someone in Intel
<mdz> and if good things happen with s3, maybe we can enable it on a case-by-case basis for some laptops
<mjg59> 2) hardware where it works but video doesn't come back
<amu> mjg59: ok 
<thom> mdz: this kinda ties into the hardware db
<mdz> " More flexible implementation of TRLS features (hal/dbus, etc.)?"
<bob2> is swsusp the One True suspend-to-disk thing now?
<mjg59> (2) is not easily solvable in the VESA case
<mdz> what is that about?
<bob2> ie will it support !i386 soon/now?
<mjg59> 3) individual drivers that don't work
<mjg59> (3) is easily fixed on a case by case basis
<mdz> mjg59: TRLS?
<Kamion> bob2: as I understand it powermac support is RSN
<thom> mdz: it almost certainly is !hoary - moving power management infrastructure to use hal
<mjg59> More hardware for testing would be good. If I can sort the craptop, I'll produce kernel images.
<jdub> trls == Totally Rad Laptop Support
<thom> and then doing all the TRLS stuff over dbus
<mjg59> I think that's post-hoary
<mdz> we really ought to fix that
<mjg59> We need more hal support for platform devices first
<mdz> as rad as it is, it's fairly hacktastic on the inside at the moment :-)
<thom> mdz: yes.
<mdz> what about the configuration side of it?
<mdz> i.e., currently the user needs to hand-edit scripts in /etc to change the timeouts and such
<mjg59> I'm inclined to go for suspend to disk on power or sleep button, and just try to blank the screen on lid close
<mdz> especially that evil-cryptic hard drive timeout value
<thom> mdz: well, that's the flipside - with a dbus/hal implementation, you could have a NetworkManager like implementation - user config frontend that talks to a backend daemon
<mdz> mjg59: blank the screen and leave everything powered up?  that seems to cause lots of user surprises
<amu> mjg59: there are some reports about swsusp.? i guess many brocken drivers, like cetrino wireless ;)  
<mjg59> mdz: Suspend to disk on lid close is hard
<mdz> amu: they'll be fixed
<amu> centrino even 
<mdz> mjg59: why harder than power button?
<thom> so no need to mod stuff under /etc
<Keybuk> mdz: stand up, shut lid, move to other table, open lid
<mjg59> mdz: It's difficult to get most hardware to autoresume from swsusp on lid open at present
<Keybuk> the time the lid is shut is often less than the time to actually suspend
<mdz> mjg59: ah
<Keybuk> (not to mention the technical reasons)
<mdz> ok
<mjg59> And we're still talking 20 seconds or so for resume
<amu> mdz: something good for the liveCD    
<mdz> " Automatic /cpufreq module loading (possibly for desktop systems, too)"
<mjg59> Sladen was working on that
<mdz> I think the path forward for that is hotplug cpu support, is it not?
<mjg59> It's straightforward - just need to map CPU to module, and then fall back to acpi
<sabdfl> can we not do a delayed swsusp?
<sabdfl> so if the lid stays closed for mor ethan 3 minutes, std?
<mjg59> sabdfl: Yes - a timer on closed lid is practical
<mdz> mjg59: what was he working on?  loading the right module based on /proc/cpuinfo?
<mjg59> mdz: Yes
<thom> mdz: yes
<mdz> ok, sounds eminently doable for hoary
<thom> can we bounty hotplug cpu support, and stay with sladen's script short term?
<mdz> yes
<thom> cool
<mdz> " APM support selectable on install for laptops with missing/broken APCI support (BenjaminLong?)"
<mjg59> Firstly, anything that doesn't support ACPI should have APM loaded
<Keybuk> *shrug* that should be automatic
<mjg59> At the moment, loads of people are having to add APM to /etc/modules by hand
<mdz> sounds like early breakage to me
<mjg59> There's no real downside to always trying to load APM
<ogra> mjg59: i have a lap that has acpi but isnt supported
<mdz> so we should start loading apm automatically whenever acpi is not active?
<Keybuk> can't we load acpi, and then apm -- iirc apm will not load if acpi was loaded and worked
<mdz> Keybuk: I think so
<mjg59> mdz: If you try to load APM when acpi /is/ active, it'll just disable itself
<mdz> what's the proper userland place to trigger apm loading?
<mdz> oh, we have apmd in desktop
<mdz> so apmd should start loading apm, it sounds like
<mjg59> The apm init script could check for a /proc/acpi, and load apm if it's not there
<mjg59> That's probably the easiest solution
<mdz> ok
<mdz> who will make the changes?
<mjg59> Passing acpi=off then results in the right thing happening
<mdz> to the apm package?
<Keybuk> mjg59: why do you need the acpi=off ?
<thom> i'll take
<mdz> thom: yours
<mjg59> Keybuk: If you have working APM suspend but no working ACPI suspend, for instance
<mdz> mjg59: that's it for the laptop stuff
<mjg59> mdz: Yup
<mjg59> Rock
<Keybuk> ok, I assume you don't need that for an APM-only laptop
<thom> mdz: NetworkManager
<mjg59> Oh, one thing - I have a limited range of hardware for this. Another test machine would be handy
<mdz> thom: that's under a separate heading
<thom> do we want to talk about this in relation to laptops, or seperately? (mjg59 has been looking at it, as have I)
<jdub> separate, there's a big chunk of bullet points about it
<mdz> only if there's a specific feature goal in it other than "package networkmanager and add it to desktop"
<mjg59> Yeah, it's more useful on laptops than elsewhere but I think it's part of the big network autoconfiguration love thing
<thom> k
<mjg59> mdz: Thanks
<mdz> I'm already thinking that we may need to adjourn and finish tomorrow
<mdz> we have another couple of hours, easily
<mdz> but let's blaze through as much as we can
<mdz> language support
<jdub> oh man, another 2am meeting tomorrow would kill me :)
<daniels> mdz: one hit is good for me and the others at 2am
<jdub> (it's 5am)
<Keybuk> jdub: interfering with breakfast? :p
<fabbione> mdz: i won't be able to be here tomorrow at this time
<jdub> Keybuk: (i got up at 4am yesterday)
<mdz> the big part of this bit is the backend infrastructure to pull things out of packages during the build cycle
<mdz> which is a generic facility we may use for several things
<doko> during build, not install?
<mdz> this is high priority, so someone will be assigned to implement it
<mdz> doko: right, during build
<mdz> for example
<lamont> mdz: 2400UTC?
<jdub> part of it is just pulling stuff out
<mdz> the basic idea is to create language packs
<mdz> by extracting locale-specific data from packages
<jdub> the tricky bit is pulling stuff out entirely, and making new packages based on it
<pitti> even more trickier is that the stuff must not be put into the original packages any more, right?
<mdz> so probably a debhelper component to do the acquisition of the data, a repository of some sort to hold it, and a system to make packages out of it
<ogra> the printing system tied to the locale would be nice
<Keybuk> you'd have to do it somewhere between binary and signing the changes
<doko> detect thing in /usr/share/locale and build new packages from that, add to the control file the new packages and add conflicts to the old package?
<mdz> Keybuk: you'd do it before even creating the .deb
<jdub> mdz: debhelper means lots of patches
<mdz> jdub: why?
<Kamion> jdub: good
<Kamion> :-)
<jdub> hrm, unless it was built in to an existing debhelper module
<mdz> jdub: it would be a separate module
<Kamion> I don't think that something this invasive should be silent as far as the source package is concerned
<fabbione> dh_builddeb could call it
<jdub> mdz: so surely that means lots of patches against modules
<mdz> it wouldn't even necessarily have to be debhelper-compatible, but it would be used in the same way
<lamont> mdz: and many things don't build-dep debhelper...
<Kamion> otherwise users will have a hell of a time building packages
* Keybuk makes a note to be on holiday at hoary->grumpy merge :p
<mdz> jdub: why does a separate module imply patches to existing modules?
<lamont> Keybuk: trivial to automate, no? :-)
<Keybuk> mdz: to change debian/rules ?
<jdub> mdz: patches to packages
<mdz> lamont: packages which use this facility should probably do so explicitly and build-dep
<mdz> trying to intrusively hook into the process this way sounds rather insane
<jdub> mdz: debian/{rules,control}
<mdz> jdub: yes, right
<lamont> mdz: so you don't mean _all_ packages, just those with locale compoinets?
<mdz> jdub: I was talking debhelper modules
<mdz> dunno
<mdz> I think this needs a real design discussion
<lamont> definitely
<mdz> but it also needs someone to take the lead
<jdub> lamont: it gets pretty close to all, given gnome (locales separation and .desktop extraction)
<pitti> sounds interesting
<Kamion> jdub: there are lots of unlocalised and don't-need-to-be-localised packages below the desktop
<Kamion> libraries instantly spring to mind
<jdub> yeah
<mdz> .desktop extraction is significantly easier
<mdz> beacuse it's a tiny amount of data
* Keybuk tries to think of an unlocalised library
<mdz> we don't need to exclude it from the .deb at all
<Kamion> wouldn't this be easier with arch-for-everything?
<seb128> Kamion: most of gnome libs are localised
<mdz> Kamion: not for locale data; it's generated at build time, no?
<doko> are desktop extractions worth to put in an extra package?
<jdub> Kamion: lots of this has to be done after build
<Kamion> mdz: you could generate it from the .po files in the same way, I'd've thought
<mdz> ok, I don't want to have the design discussion now
<Keybuk> doko: not for an extra package, for a smart "Add/Remove Programs" app
<pitti> mdz: well, if the stuff is extracted into an extra package, it shouldn't be in the original deb any more
<Keybuk> mdz: it's a must-have from sabdfl isn't it?  so should be punted to design later
<jdub> pitti: (.desktop stuff is a bit different, it'll go elsewhere)
<mdz> the spec as it stands is that we want to have language packs which include the localisation data across the distribution, and exclude that data from the packages
<mdz> the question in the table is who will implement it
<Kamion> has anyone checked if all of these language packs will actually fit on the CD?
<Kamion> they're going to be absolutely enormous
<sabdfl> Kamion: won't ship all of them
<Kamion> sabdfl: even one of them will be enormous :)
<mdz> that, and they won't have any new data to start
<mdz> we'll just be moving things from one package to another
<pitti> mdz: I'd like to look at this
<mdz> pitti: ok, yours
<sabdfl> Kamion: don't we currently ship *all* translations?
<lamont> this is all of french (say) for all desktop apps in one package?
<jdub> mdz: (though it will include all of Supported translations too)
<Kamion> sabdfl: no, see openoffice.org-l10n-*
<Kamion> about 3MB per language
<sabdfl> Kamion: right 
<mdz> jdub: I think we can separate supported from desktop
<mdz> anyway, trying not to get into it
<doko> sabfl: only for packages which don't have localization packages as extras
<mdz> " excellent GDMLanguageIntegration? (selection of login language, selection of system languages)"
<sabdfl> we'll only do this for the desktop package
<sabdfl> s
<mdz> we already can select the login language, no?
<jdub> yeah
<mdz> jdub: can you expand?
<jdub> but not guiable
<Kamion> if generated, yeah
<Keybuk> all three of those sound like bounties
<mdz> agreed
<mdz> needs a spec, though
<mdz> moving on
<jdub> there's no way of configuring the GDM language
<Sensebend> what is the target size of the next release?
<Keybuk> Sensebend: single CD
<mdz> Sensebend: one CD
<Sensebend> so 650MB or 700MB?
<Kamion> 650, I think
<jdub> but there is a list of languages - if configured - to choose from for your session
<jdub> we need a gui way of choosing available languages
<mdz> next up, documentation
<mdz> any documentation team folks here?
<mdz> hornbeck: hi
<Sensebend> agreed jdub
<jdub> and add gdm language choice to gdmsetup
<jdub> (this should probably be shifted to desktop)
<sivang_away> me also
<mdz> python port of yelp -> bounty
<sivang_away> :)
<ogra> jdub: and disable it if there is only one lang ?
<jdub> mdz: python port of yelp can be dumped for hoary
<mdz> even better
<sivang> jdub : have you talked with shaunm ?
<jdub> yes
<mdz> " Network Administrator's Kick Arse Rollout Guide (Re: kickstart)"
<jdub> extensively
<jdub> mdz: bounty
<mdz> " Devhelp for Python development documentation love"
<jdub> mdz: bounty, have candidate
<mdz> " Ubuntu in a nutshell style booklet (JeffWaugh?)"
<jdub> mdz: bounty
<doko> jdub: what should be done?
<mdz> we should have more documentation goals
<mdz> but we can discuss them later
<doko> for the devhelp thing?
<sivang> mdz : any connection to redhet's kickstart?
<mdz> the doc team can bring that together
<sivang> redhat
<mdz> sivang: yes, scroll back about an hour
<Sensebend> Ubutu in a netshell sounds good
<jdub> doko: just making python docs appear in devhelp
<mdz> moving on
<mdz> X.org
<fabbione> yes
<mdz> you are on it already
<Sensebend> yes! to Xorg!
<fabbione> yes
<Keybuk> Go Team Denmark! etc.
<fabbione> we are progressing slower than expected
<mdz> high priority, get it in as soon as possible, fix what breaks
<daniels> fabio and I are both on it
<doko> jdub: let's talk about it later please
<fabbione> mdz: read above
<mdz> fabbione: what's a reasonable target date?
<fabbione> mdz: we are facing more problems than i expected
<fabbione> mdz: possibly end of novemeber
<sabdfl> that's late
<mdz> yes it is
<fabbione> mdz: i am working 15 hours/day on it but i can't sustain this rithm forever
<mdz> fabbione: it doesn't need to be perfect
<mdz> but it needs to be in
<fabbione> mdz: it doens't even compile
<fabbione> i have bigger issues than having it perfect
<sabdfl> fabbione: can we provide help in any way?
<mdz> what about the work that daniels did back in August?
<mdz> are you working from that, or from scratch?
<fabbione> mdz: we are using all the things we have
<fabbione> sabdfl: i will soon need (root) access to amd64 and ppc to test portability
<mdz> fabbione: you will have it
<sabdfl> fabbione: we have porting boxes available
<fabbione> sabdfl, mdz: perfect
<fabbione> there are bits that goes in very fast
<fabbione> others are a real pain
<mdz> fabbione: can we do it in stages?
<fabbione> there is not much i can do about it
<fabbione> mdz: ?
<mdz> e.g., first transition the X server, and then the libs?
<fabbione> what you mean by stages?
<elmo> fabbione: err, why root?
<fabbione> mdz: no
<fabbione> elmo: i need to be able to install packages i build on the fly
<daniels> elmo: install stuff
<daniels> elmo: no longer a single monolithic package, remember
<fabbione> elmo: otherwise i need you and/or thom available when i am working on it
<fabbione> i/we
<jdub> current xorg isn't split out, is it?
<daniels> mdz: stepping it in will be more work than just crashing the lot in
<daniels> jdub: upstream, no.  packaging, yes.
<jdub> daniels: why?
<mdz> splitting it out is less important than getting it in early
<daniels> jdub: (why ... ?)
<mdz> it is perfectly OK to have a monolithic package
<fabbione> mdz: it's like the python scripts.. either we get from the beginning or we don't
<mdz> that does not make sense to me
<fabbione> mdz: and we will still face the same problems later
<mdz> it is entirely a bulid-time problem
<doko> splitting up a package is much work
<jdub> fabbione: but it can be tested in the mean time
<mdz> moving binary packages between source packages is easy
<jdub> fabbione: or it can be split for grumpy
<mdz> once upstream is properly split, we can split along the same lines
<fabbione> mdz: we need to upgrade from Xfree and it doesn't make it easier
<fabbione> there are hell of dependencies already
<mdz> fabbione: source package layout does not affect upgrades
<jdub> there are two big issues here
<jdub> - managing the upgrade from xfree
<jdub> - testing the software itself
<fabbione> mdz: till a certain point.
<jdub> splitting the package (for the packaging's sake) doesn't assist either of those
<mdz> trying to split the source packages early is introducing a lot of unnecessarily complexity
<mdz> s/rily/ry/
<fabbione> mdz: we will only postpone the problem
<mdz> we can afford to postpone that problem
<mdz> we cannot afford to postone testing X.org in Hoary
<jdub> fabbione: postponing until upstream does the split sounds great :)
<fabbione> ok
<fabbione> it's your call
<jdub> xorg should be one of the first things to hit hoary
<mdz> ok, let's delay the split
<sabdfl> agreed
<fabbione> jdub: it's not like i haven't been working for it
<mdz> get something which builds the right binary packages so we can get it in and test
<Kamion> OK, I have to go to beat people up^W^W^Wpractice peaceful martial arts now
<mdz> fabbione: I understand, and I really appreciate your work
<Kamion> back in two hours or less, if you're still going
<fabbione> only portion of the patch forwarding costed me 30 hours of work if not more
<daniels> upstream split is april/may
<mdz> fabbione: we just need to make sure that we focus on the right priorities to make the release
<daniels> which will defer our split to grumpy
<jdub> fabbione: i grok - the split is a lot of work, and important for different reasons; thank you
<mdz> split for grumpy sounds fine
<mdz> we have lived with monolithic X for many years
<mdz> another 6 months will not kill us
<mdz> so let's establish a target for getting X.org uploaded
<fabbione> well ok.. 
<fabbione> monolitich tree will be
<fabbione> i am not happy about this decision
<fabbione> because it will make X drops still complex and slow
<fabbione> but i have to accept the fact that we have deadlines
<fabbione> dates will be asap
<mdz> fabbione: what are the dates of the X sprint?
<fabbione> daniels is coming here the 1st of nov until the 14th
<mdz> ok
<mdz> let's target array CD 3
<mdz> November 15
<fabbione> so we should be able to upload something usable for that time
<mdz> ok
<jdub> awesome!
<mdz> " Enhanced GDM"
<jdub> mdz: bounty, have candidate
<mdz> " Process bugs and feedback from the WartyWarthog? release"
<jdub> impossible
<mdz> not a feature goal :-)
<mdz> " GNOME 2.10"
<mdz> seb128: all you
<seb128> yeah, no problem
<mdz>  Easy package install GUI (JeffWaugh?, talking to RossBurton?)
<jdub> mdz: bounty, have candidate, almost finished already :)
<mdz>  Security update notification GUI (MichaelVogt?)
<mdz> mvo_: ?
<mvo_> yes
<jdub> mdz: depends on splitting .desktop files
<mvo_> no problem
<jdub> (easy package)
<mdz> jdub: right
<mdz> not worried about the .desktop files
<fabbione> sabdfl, mdz, jdub: if there is nothing more for me i would like to go and get some dinner
<mvo_> with update manager application 
<mdz> " Fax support via efax or the new gfax?"
<sabdfl> fabbione: thanks very much!
<jdub> not really worth a 'goal'
<mdz> fabbione: by all means, thank you
<jdub> but george farris is getting gfax ready for inclusion in hoary
<fabbione> sabdfl: no! thanks to you!
<jdub> gtk/mono-based
<jdub> integrates with print system, etc.
<fabbione> cya tomorrow
<mdz> " Bluetooth GUI, with EddDumbill?'s packages"
<doko> jdub: does it support ISDN devices?
<jdub> ends up just being a package inclusion
* sabdfl thought fabbione was offering to get me some dinner
<fabbione> sabdfl: also!
<jdub> mdz: edd wants to do those, ends up being a seed change
<fabbione> sabdfl: welcome to join
<fabbione> sabdfl: but the new kitchen will be ready in 2 weeks now :-)
<mdz>  Replace fam with gamin
<jdub> mdz: seed change
<fabbione> sabdfl: i am on microwave and sandwich
<sabdfl> bluetooth will be important for the trls
<mdz> jdub: does gamin exist?
<jdub> mdz: already in universe
<mdz> jdub: that's something we should get in as early as possible
<mdz> ok
<doko> so all the crowd is invited to cook pasta at your home? ;)
<jdub> i have updated packages beyond warty ready to upload when i can
<sabdfl> jdub: are edd's packages in a state to go in early and get user feedbackl?
<jdub> sabdfl: they're in my repo
<mdz> " Replace esd with polypaudio"
<mdz> another early breakage item
<jdub> mdz: seed change
<mdz> jdub: oh?
<jdub> already in universe
<jdub> i would like you to review polypaudio
<sabdfl> jdub: what's polyaudio's state in the gnome universe?
<mdz> hmm, I thought we were going for dmix
<mdz> rather than a replacement sound daemon
<jdub> sabdfl: installable, replaces esound
<jdub> mdz: this gives us a sane option
<sabdfl> g2.10 standard?
<jdub> sabdfl: oh, sorry
<mdz> jdub: esd-compatible or no?
<jdub> i'm hoping that it will replace esound in gnome land
<jdub> mdz: protocol compatible
<jdub> mdz: apps will still use libesd
<mdz> jdub: apps linked with libesd?
<mdz> ok
<mdz> I thought the plan was to get rid of the sound daemon concept entirely
<mdz> and let alsa handle it
<Keybuk> mdz: then what multiplexes the sound card?
<Keybuk> alsa specifically won't handle it, and are going the other way and saying you need a multiplexer
<jdub> mdz: dmix may be rough to configure automagically, has no config tools, and mean syou have to use libalsa for everything
<bob2> Keybuk: dmix handles it
<bob2> Keybuk: for libasound apps, at least
<Keybuk> dmix is a multiplexer daemon though?
<mdz> libalsa for everything is doable for desktop
<jdub> Keybuk: no, part of liba*
<mdz> most of it is there already
<jdub> mdz: that's lots of bugfixing, dude
<jdub> with uuuuugly alsa
<sabdfl> also, alsa api got carrots
<mdz> jdub: why is polypaudioi better than esd?
<Keybuk> sabdfl: and in en?
<jdub> mdz: much, much saner structure, easier to configure, better for sync sound, latency, etc.
<sabdfl> "the alsa api received less-than-glowing reivews from warty team members who looked at it"
<mdz> sabdfl: true
<sabdfl> jdub: as in click, wait, ping!
<jdub> mdz: probably a longer discussion involve dhere
<mdz> yes
<jdub> mdz: but i'd like to start by replacing esound
<mdz> if gnome 2.10 is going with polypaudio , we'll start there
<sabdfl> if it's in universe let's get it in asap
<mdz> and then look into other stuff
<sabdfl> i think we should communicate very strongly that hoary will spend large amounts of time BROKEN
<mdz> polyp is on the early breakage list
<sabdfl> then not fear breaking it
<mdz> we're going to break everything at once :-)
<mdz>  dns-sd via howl (JeffWaugh?)
<mdz> jdub: ?
<jdub> mdz: gnome-vfs depends change
<bob2> there's a huge number of basically newbies who want to move to hoary
<jdub> mdz: brings howl into main
<Keybuk> isn't that going to open a port?
<bob2> you need to get that message out very very loud
<Keybuk> deb http://break-my-computer-and-stamp-on-the-pieces.ubuntu.com/... :p
<jdub> mdz: requires security analysis from you for mDNSResponder, and hopefully some configuration thingy to let mDNSResponder default to no-listen and switch to listen
<mdz> this is going to be breakage of a scale never before seen :-)
<mdz> debian has never broken this much at once
<Keybuk> libc5 -> libc6 migration? :p
<mdz> jdub: the listening switch sounds like a bounty sort of thing
<jdub> mdz: (we could just not install mDNSResponder by default to start with)
<mdz> Keybuk: that's one thing
<jdub> mdz: agree
<mdz> just happened to affect lots of pakcages :-)
<jdub> mdz: in which case, have candidate
<sivang> mdz : true, but sid's small , harder to notice breakages also stung :)
<Keybuk> mdz: in sufficiently incompatible ways that it wasn't *bootable* for long periods :p
<sabdfl> jdub, mdz, how are we going to resolve the fundamental difference between "rendevous (howl) is awesome" and "don't listen by default"?
<mdz> jdub: I'll mark it for further discussion, we'll break it down
<mdz> sabdfl: require the user to check a box to turn it on
<Keybuk> sabdfl: put them in a ring and let them fight it out?
<jdub> sabdfl: by taking your clothes, tying you to a chair, and... oh, or providing a configuration item to turn it on
* sabdfl thinks this sounds just like boarding school
<Keybuk> jdub: can we have a cups configuration next to that?
<jdub> Keybuk: i think this ends up being part of our 'services configuration' thingy
<jdub> Keybuk: bounty ;)
<mdz> the CUPS configuration thing sounds simpler; it should just open up its port when you're looking to add a printer
<jdub> Keybuk: plus discussion ;)
<mdz> no point in sitting around listening all the time
<mdz>  improved panel:
<mdz> jdub: ?
<jdub> mdz: bounty, have candidate
<sabdfl> how does cups know when someone else on the network wants to install a printer?
<mdz>  accessible by default + include a11y packages? (JeffWaugh?)
<mdz> sabdfl: we're talking about the client end of it
<mdz> the print server will have a port open all the time
<Keybuk> mdz: I was talking about the server end
<jdub> mdz: dump as official goal, leave to community and 'research and development' derivative
<mdz> but the thing we disabled was that the client currently needs a port open all the time in order ot browse
<sabdfl> right
<mdz>  Some kind of reasonable video playback support (Fluendo's DVD Player?)
<sabdfl> so "share printer" makes you a print server, and slightly vulnerable, but it's your option
<jdub> mdz: requires further discussion
<mdz>  User management (e.g., select whether new users should have local device access or not)
<mdz> pitti: ?
<pitti> mdz: yes :-)
<mdz> this is a patch to g-s-t, right?
<doko> that's a pam thing?
<pitti> mdz: in gnome system tools?
<mdz> pitti: yes
<mdz> a small one, I think
<mdz> pitti: will you do it?
<pitti> mdz: yes
<mdz>  Remote desktop and rocking terminal support with  NX? (TollefFogHeen?)
<jdub> (we could bounty the author on that one, too)
<mdz> Mithrandir is not here
<mdz> anyone know what that's about?
<jdub> integrating nomachine nx
<jdub> definitely an attractive goal
<ogra> in vino
<jdub> no, just generally
<jdub> not related to vino
<mdz> which is some sort of vnc-ish thing?
<sabdfl> low-bandwidth x
<bob2> super-low-bandwidth X
<ogra> mdz: way faster
<Keybuk> NX is "make my X go really really fast"
<Keybuk> (over a network)
<sabdfl> combined with ltsp, will rock
<daniels> yes
<jdub> usually used for terminals, rather than sharing current session
<daniels> parts of it are free, parts are non-free
<mdz> X extension?
<daniels> freenx is a 500-line shell script to tie shit together
<daniels> no
<mdz> or separate protocol?
<jdub> special server
<daniels> runs a proxying, caching server
<amu> mdz: ... woorks with a goof compression, working with a modem line is very very fast compared to vnc 
<mdz> what's involved in the feature for hoary?
<daniels> separate protocol/server, also interoperates with os x and windows if you buy their product
<mdz> packaging the thing?
<jdub> yeah
<daniels> packaging, yes
<sabdfl> daniels: what parts are non-free, and can it be usefully used as entirely free config?
<jdub> packaging + seed
<mdz> who will do the work?
<jdub> perhaps leave it for tollef to answer
<doko> can do it
<jdub> he has already done bits
<daniels> sabdfl: i believe you can get an entire freenx setup with free licences
<mdz> ok, will check with tollef
<mdz>  Attempt to standardise on process elevation method throughout GNOME
<tseng> knoppix already includes bits of freen
<tseng> x
<sabdfl> and the non-free stuff is what? optimised?
<jdub> mdz: not convinced it's a useful goal for hoary
<mdz> punting
<mdz>  Thought: Replace Gnome's default palm only sync with  MultiSync? for syncing with many more devices? (BenjaminLong?)
<jdub> mdz: can do as bounty for grumpy, can think of potential candidate
<Keybuk> whoever wrote that is on crack, multisync doesn't work with evo 2.0, only 1.4
<sabdfl> sounds like a gnome job, not a hoary job
<daniels> sabdfl: i think most of their integration is non-free but there are hacks around that
<jdub> multisync isn't ready for integration
<sabdfl> "their"?
<sabdfl> jdub: is it the platform to build on top of though?
<mdz> we had proposed a bounty of getting it into shape
<jdub> especially if intended as a replacement for current palm foo
<jdub> sabdfl: potentially - needs a lot of work
<Keybuk> I looked through multisync briefly and I wasn't impressed
<sabdfl> is it actively maintained?
<mdz> several apparently major bugs on the current palm-fu
<jdub> the general idea is right, but lots of mess gui and implimentation wise
<lamont> Keybuk: I played with evo sync briefly, was so impressed I went back to jpilot
<mdz> if there isn't something there to build on, we can't do this for hoary
<jdub> sabdfl: not in a very strongly directed fashion ;)
<jdub> mdz: i'd say punt
<jdub> mdz: people can love it in universe
<sabdfl> ok, pass
<mdz> " Better sounds: for example new mail sound, preconfigured correctly"
<mdz> sounds like random criticism of the audio theme :-)
<jdub> wouldn't want to commit to supporting it
<sabdfl> pity, because PDA stuff is going to be very important
<sabdfl> erm, that was me
<tseng> evo sync to palm is an "almost works, sortof"
<mdz> sabdfl: something we should do professionally?
<doko> hmm, turning off single sounds in sound themes would be nice
<sabdfl> we need to review every desktop app for sound integration so it all works well together
<mdz> sabdfl: I know people who could do very slick sounds for us
<sabdfl> like, thunderbird's new mail sound was just a beep post-install
<sabdfl> mdz: great, ping me separately/
<elmo> yay, someone do a slick sound that sabdfl can use on his damn jabber client ;-P
<sivang> xchat's too
<Keybuk> and gaim could do with something a little cuter than the fingers-on-blackboard ring
<sabdfl> "hassole"
<Keybuk> and gossip could do with something louder than its shy little peep
<mdz> so this particular item is just about making sound events more integrated and consistent?
<Keybuk> elmo: AWOOGA!
<jdub> DIVE! DIVE!
<thom> elmo: "WOO WOO"
<sabdfl> can we do "sounds froma nudist colony"?
<ogra> lol
<jdub> sabdfl: 'slap!' 'squish!' etc?
<mdz> what's the hoary piece of this?
<thom> sabdfl: the "you can't show tits on the radio" theme
<mdz> review all desktop apps and make them use sound consistently?
<sabdfl> mdz: yes
<jdub> mdz: bounty for sounds, fix badly chosen sound bugs in packages
<mdz> sabdfl: just using a consistent set of sounds, or adding sound stuff where it isn't currently present?
<sabdfl> (a) creating a good sound theme
<mdz> e.g., stuff which just beeps
<sabdfl> (b) making sure all apps which use sound are correctly integrated to the theme
<sabdfl> so gossip and gaim could use the same sounds
<sabdfl> thunderbird and evo
<sabdfl> for new mail, new im, etc
<mdz> ok
<mdz> but if an app only supports the console bell, or no sounds at all, we leave it alone?
<sabdfl> basically, file bugs on packages where there are sound theme inconsistencies or unusabilities
<sabdfl> yes
<mdz> ok
<sabdfl> no bash sound theme needed
<mdz> bounty?
<mdz> (a) I have bounty leads
<Keybuk> sabdfl: Gentoo ... it's only a matter of time
<sabdfl> contract for the overall theme, bugs for apps that don't integrate
<doko> "command not found" sound ...
<mdz> (b) we need someone to do the review and file bugs
<mdz> jdub: ?
<sabdfl> i think once the team knows this is important they will file bugs
<Keybuk> doko: "D'oh!"
<jdub> mdz: hrm?
<azeem> (about multisync, I read the people behind it work on a sane replacement called opensync, which is supposed to by a fd.org standard)
<Keybuk> azeem: what isn't these days?
<daniels> hosted at fd.o, don't know how much movement there's been.
<jdub> azeem: yeah, opensync is pretty far from ready
<daniels> hosted != standard
<mdz> ok, so we won't make this an official goal, and just file bugs
<sabdfl> sync punted -> grumpy
<mdz>  Improved network integration?
<mdz> NetworkManager
<Keybuk> thom?
<mdz> thom: you're packaging it?
<azeem> daniels: I asked about multisync for an unrelated matter, and found a post by one of the guys saying a first opensync preview release was imminent
<mdz> assuming thom will take that one
<sabdfl> thom was showing it off here last week
<sabdfl> looking pretty good
<sabdfl> needs to be integrated with the broader picture of ifup ifdown
<thom> sorry
<thom> yes
<jdub> lots of opportunities for NM integration in various programs
<jdub> like evolution, etc.
<mdz> thom: all of the sub-goals under that heading have been moved under networkmanager
<mdz> thom: is that accurate?
<mdz> we don't need anything else?
<jdub> some patches have already been written by RH dudes
<mdz> what about, e.g., not bringing the interface up at boot?
<thom> mdz: checking, but i think so
<mdz> does networkmanager integrate with ifupdow?
<mdz> ifupdown?
<Keybuk> jdub: Colin's crusade against the "Network Error" dialog?
<sivang> jdub : i.e ?
<jdub> Keybuk: yeah (and clark's)
<thom> mdz: not as yet, intend for it to do so soon
<jdub> so beyond packaging, there's integration work to do
<mdz> thom: will you take that on as well?
<thom> not sure about zeroconf
<sivang> mdz : and there's the trashing interfaces file when starting from skreatch no conffiles
<Keybuk> is a good hoary goal
<thom> mdz: yes
<tseng> there is fixing to do in networkmanager itself before its ripe to be a core component
<jdub> TRLS! Yeah!
<mdz> hmm, there's stuff under there that is clearly no tnetworkmanager stuff
<mdz> so, zeroconf -> hoary
<mdz> Kamion: what about the wireless/installer bit?
<mdz> oh, he went away
<mdz>  Don't ask for WEP / ESSID details during install if they are not really needed
<mdz> probably just file a bug about that
<thom> yep
<sabdfl> plus, try the various essid's in of signal strength
<mdz> IrDA
<jdub> you're skipping the zeroconf bits?
<mdz> does someone here care about IrDA? :-)
<jdub> that sebastien added?
<sabdfl> pass
<mdz> jdub: I thought zeroconf was ->grumpy
<sabdfl> what's the diff between zeroconf and howl?
<mdz> I thought howl was an implementation of zeroconf
<mdz> but surely there is lots of integration to do
<jdub> sabdfl: howl provides implementations of the two sides of zeroconf
<thom> sabdfl: howl is a zeroconf implementation
<mdz> once we have howl, there are lots of things to hook it into
<jdub> there is a NetworkManager/Howl integration possibility here, for local lan
<sabdfl> is howl out there, and stable?
<thom> you can get network details from zeroconf, which would need to tie into NM
<jdub> plus there is the nss issue for .local
<jdub> sabdfl: i package it
* lamont gets dragged out the door by his wife, back in ~2 hours or so
<jdub> sabdfl: it is a dependency of gnome-vfs already
<sabdfl> ok
<thom> that's another reason for new glibc, by the way
<jdub> sabdfl: (not in warty)
<thom> useful nameservice reloading stuff
<mdz> ok
<mdz> so what can we reasonable do with howl/zeroconf for hoary?
<jdub> mdz: perhaps we should just talk about zeroconf issues between you, thom and i
<mdz> s/able/ably/
<mdz> -> further discussion
<tseng> gnome-vfs support is as easy as a build
<jdub> tseng: (already covered earlier)
<mdz>  Support users who don't want to use the restricted component
<mdz> sounds like a couple of simple d-i changes
<Keybuk> bug for kamion
<mdz> will discuss with colin when he gets back
<mdz> ia64
<mdz> T-Bone is not here
<jdub> mdz: there are some items under 'irda' that really shouldn't be there
<mdz> jdub: good point
<mdz> in fact nothing should be under irda
<thom> hp are very kindly sending me an itanium workstation, so i can test d-i
* mvo__ is back after network problems
<mdz> backing up
<mdz> " More robust mechanism for consistently-named network interfaces"
<sabdfl> thom: ?
<mdz> that would be doing ifrename right
<jdub> i think NM covers that to a certain extent
<mdz> oh?
<jdub> yeah, it unifies a lot of that stuff
<thom> (not, "they're sending me it to test d-i", but "they're sending me one; thus i can test d-i as a side effect")
<mdz> " Unified DNS configuration (resolvconf or similar)"
<sabdfl> thom: aha
<jdub> NM may have an impact on that
<mdz> sabdfl: they sent me one as well, some time ago, so no worries there
* bob2 is totally on the wrong team
<thom> that should happen through NM ideally
<jdub> bob2: you get free trips to sydney for fish'n'chips!
<mdz> we'll need to have a networkmanager meeting later
<mdz> " Visual traffic indicators on panel network icons (so you can see when NIC or modem is busy)"
<mdz> NetworkManager?
<thom> new glibc can notify apps of nameservice changes AIUI
<jdub> yeah ;)
<Keybuk> and ugh
<bob2> jdub: hah, indeed
<sabdfl> i put that in 
<jdub> thom: and TZ! :)
<thom> yeah
<Keybuk> network is always busy, evil, distracting flashy icons
<sabdfl> two things: first, the network stuff (wifi etc) should only be visible when it's meaningful
<mdz> was that a yeah, networkmanager will do the blinkenlights?
<jdub> mdz: yes
<mdz> ok
<sabdfl> and second, it's good to have evil, distracting, flashing icons :-)_
<mdz> not by default, please
<thom> NM will do wifi strength, not sure about traffic but it probably is trivial, will look
<sabdfl> but seriously, often want to know if the network is busy or not, it's a common user perceptual reinforcement
<Keybuk> sabdfl: but if you have a windows machine on the network, the light won't stop flashing
<jdub> sabdfl: and common irritant ;)
<sivang> isn't there already an applet for showing network traffic? I use one.
<Keybuk> because they don't shut up broadcasting shit
<jdub> sivang: there is, but NM centralises the configuration, etc.
<sabdfl> jdub: i know which side i'm going to ask us to err on :-)
<mvo__> siretart: netspeed?
* Keybuk wonders what that wailing sound is
<jdub> thom: i wouldn't be surprised if some of the gnome applets are fixed up to support NM
<jdub> mvo__: ew, no ;)
<sabdfl> thom: can nm appear as a notifier, rather than an applet?
<mdz> what about sabdfl's network-applets-only-when-meaningful?
<tseng> nm is a notifier
<thom> sabdfl: it is  a notification applet
<sabdfl> perfect
<Keybuk> mdz: requires massive, total, unrelenting overhaul of gnome-panel and gnome-applets
<jdub> mdz: NM does that
<sabdfl> we need the same for battery
<mdz> hahaha
<mdz> conflicting answers
<amu> should we also add support for handicapped people? i got some request for the liveCD some time ago
* sivang is stunned to see mdz laughing :)
<mdz> jdub: what's the right implementation overall?
<thom> mdz: NM provides an API to find out whether you're connected to the network
<mdz> should the applets run always, and not display anything unless appropriate?
<thom> s/the/a
<tseng> amu: we're followig the outline
<jdub> mdz: can't answer that sanely
<mdz> jdub: how do we implement what sabdfl proposed?
<jdub> mdz: but NM has nicons that appear per-network-interface
<jdub> mdz: NM
<Keybuk> mdz: doesn't work ... the applets hook to the panel via bonobo so if they run they display stuff ... if they don't display stuff they aren't run
<mdz> jdub: battery
<mdz> sound
<mdz> other stuff which is not network
<jdub> mdz: well, there's battfink which did that to start with
<tseng> there is battfink and another notification for batter
<tseng> iirc nat did one
<sabdfl> Keybuk: need to be able to run them, and have them display nothing if there's nothing to tell
<sabdfl> can an applet be converted to a notifier easily?
<Keybuk> sabdfl: have chatted about this upstream with the gnome people
<Keybuk> our general feeling is to convert the entire panel to a notification area
<jdub> mdz: but in this case, using existing battstat code to run a nicon would be a quick fix
<Keybuk> and make all applets nicons instead of silly bonobo controls
<Keybuk> though jdub wailed a bit, iirc :p
<ogra> yay
<jdub> Keybuk: no
<sabdfl> the battstat icon is close to perfect for us at the moment
<sabdfl> except that it shows on computers without a battery :-)
<sabdfl> can we move on?
<jdub> Keybuk: everyone wails at the idea of replacing applets with nicons, because it's the wrong thing to do (however, it is a simple way of moving toward what we want)
<jdub> yes
<sabdfl> i don't want to replace ALL the applets, just network and battery in our case
<jdub> (was referring to upstream discussion)
<sabdfl> mdz? next?
<ogra> you shouldnt make gtik a nicon ;)
* mdz snuck off to nibble on some food
<sabdfl> busted
<mdz> next up is ia64
<mdz> but T-Bone isn't around
<mdz> he's going to run that show, right?
<sabdfl> yes, we're not going to make it an internal problem
<mdz> ok
<mdz> TestingInfrastructure
<sabdfl> beyond buildd's and no doubt some lamont-lovin#
<mdz> huge framework needed here
<mdz> bounty material
<mdz> needs a detailed spec and some candidates
<sabdfl> this one i think is worth doing internally
<sivang> QA ?
<sabdfl> we'll be living with it for a long time
<mdz> true, lots of ongoing maintenance probably
<mdz> QA indeed
<sabdfl> and it is not something we can just drop out if it doesn't show up
<mdz> this could keep someone busy for most of the hoary cycle
<sabdfl> yes
<mdz> ok
<mdz> " APT package authentication (signed releases, apt 0.6)"
<mdz> not a big deal if we do it early
<jdub> wish we had some apt hackers on board
<mdz> needs answers to a few PKI type questions
<mdz> how we'll manage keys, etc.
<sabdfl> mdz: fire away, oo
<sabdfl> b
<mdz> I think sabdfl/elmo/I had it pretty much sorted the last time we talked
<mvo__> mdz: would like to help here
<mdz> I'll put apt 0.6 on the early breakagae list
<mdz> and get it uploaded ASAP
<mdz> mvo__: we'll need auth support in synaptic
<mdz> and also in aptitude
<mvo__> yes, I can do this
<mdz> mvo__: aptitude as well?
<mvo__> mdz: I'll contact daniel first, but I can do a patch if needed I think
<mdz> ok
<mdz>  Splitting/removing files from binary packages we talked about already
<mdz>  bzip2'ed packages
<mdz> Keybuk: ?
<Keybuk> already on dpkg mainline
<Keybuk> binary, anyway
<mdz> Keybuk: early breakage
<sabdfl> is it in warty dpkg?
<mdz> no
<Keybuk> sabdfl: no.
<sabdfl> fuck
<doko> is that decided? installation slowdown?
<sabdfl> doko: not for all pacakges
<mdz> doko: we will have the feature
<Keybuk> bzip2 packages will need to Pre-Depend: dpkg (>= 1.10.24)
<mdz> that much is decided
<sabdfl> just stuff like languagepacks
<mdz> Keybuk: when can you upload bzip2-enabled dpkg?
<jdub> or we could defer bzip packages to grumpy, but get dpkg in
<Keybuk> mdz: when can I upload?
<jdub> (suppose it doesn't matter, really)
<mdz> Keybuk: as soon as you're done with the merge?
<mdz> dpkg seems to have 2 ubuntu revisions
<mdz> afaik hoary is open for uploads now
<Keybuk> mdz: yeah, one of those was amd64; the other hasn't been merged upstream
<jdub> oh?
* jdub tries
<Keybuk> elmo: is my key in the ring again yet? :p
<mdz> elmo is importing packages anyway; real uploads should not be far behind
<mdz> anyway, that one is Keybuk's
<mdz> " Some facility for installation of meaningful package groups? (tasks)"
<mdz> Kamion suggested that we resurrect tasksel or a similar feature
<mvo__> I would like to take this
<jdub> some of that will be covered by app-install
<mdz> yes, I think it makes sense to integrate the two into one
<Keybuk> yeah, isn't this covered by Ross' gui
<sabdfl> disagree
<sabdfl> the nice slick app installer would likely look something like the win-foss gui
<jdub> mdz: only some of the use cases are covered by app-install, not all
<daniels> 0609, good night.
<sabdfl> simple, click here to get this app
<Keybuk> daniels: nite, dude
<mdz> daniels: night
<sabdfl> tasksel is a different thing
<mdz> they wouldn't be presented together
<mdz> but backend-wise, there is a lot of overlap
<jdub> sabdfl: app-install can also install sets of packages, such as "OpenOffice.org" -> implies a bunch of packages
<Keybuk> sabdfl: is it though?  are click here to get "word processor" and "development environment" actually different?
* sabdfl reconsiders
<jdub> sabdfl: possibly things like "Web Development Environment" -> bunch of things
<mdz> Keybuk: "development environment" has never been a useful task :-P
<sabdfl> i'd like to keep that gui tool very basic and simple
<jdub> it is :)
<jdub> i'll send you sshots
<Keybuk> oh, it should be very basic and simple
<Keybuk> for complex task selection, synaptic should do that
<sabdfl> sorry, aimed at "basic and simple users" and i'm not sure web development environment counts
<mdz> honestly, I think that the app-installer and the security update notifier and the simple upgrader should be one app
<jdub> sabdfl: "File Server"
<mdz> that doesn't mean a complex ui; it could be a few separate UIs
<jdub> mdz: agree
<sabdfl> jdub: nfs, samba, ftp???
<thom> agree with mdz; much simpler for users
<jdub> sabdfl: there are lots of simple aggregate examples like these
<jdub> sabdfl: but the only cover some of the use cases
<sabdfl> hmm... security update notification will put a blinkenlight in the panel
<sabdfl> that's all
<mdz> and when you click on it...
<Keybuk> sabdfl: something needs to happen when you click it :)
<mvo__> it opens the update maanager
<mvo__> :)
<sabdfl> simple app installer is like our win-foss goodie, very simple, focused on end-user apps that are high quality but not general enough to be in the desktop install
<sabdfl> like dia
<Keybuk> this should all be effortless and obvious
<sabdfl> and sodipodi (though i think inkscape might make it for hoary)
<ogra> whats wrong with inkscape ?
<sabdfl> what's simple upgrader?
<jdub> sabdfl: app-install does that delightfully, per spec we talked about at oxford
<mdz> sabdfl: one-click system upgrade
<sabdfl> shouldn't that be a simple view on synaptic?
<jdub> no
<mdz> maybe
<sabdfl> jdub why not/
<mvo__> sabdfl: could be, but it's desinged as a python app with synaptic as backend for now
<mdz> mvo__: until synaptic is rewritten in python :-)
<Keybuk> sabdfl: it effectively is as I understand it
<jdub> sabdfl: because it's so much simpler
<jdub> sabdfl: it runs synaptic to do the work
<mvo__> so it only lists updates and gives you "proceed"
<jdub> the frontend is pygtk
<sabdfl> where is this beast?
<mvo__> mdz: we'll do this later :)
<azeem> why not make synaptic simpler?
<jdub> sabdfl: sent by mail
<sabdfl> ok
<sabdfl> next
<mdz> azeem: because package management is complex; synaptic offers a lot of power
<mdz> we should not remove that power, but provide a simpler interface for simpler things
<mdz>  lm-sensors in main for hardware monitoring
<mdz> -> seed change
<azeem> did you look at the red-carpet stuff from the ximian usability wizards?
<mdz> hmm, and also fixing up the package
<azeem> might be simpler
<elmo> I thought we excluded lm-sensors 'cos the packaging was crackful?
<mdz> to get rid of the 2.4 modules crap
<jdub> azeem: it's about as complex as synaptic
<mdz> I did a bunch of that for warty already
<mdz> the source is in main
<mdz> er
<mdz> and yet it still build-depends on kernel-source-2.4.27
<mdz> oh, wrong version
<mdz> Build-Depends: bison, flex, librrd0-dev, debhelper (>= 4.1.16)
<mdz> elmo: yeah, I fixed lm-sensors in ubuntu already
<mdz> Binary: sensord, libsensors3, lm-sensors, libsensors-dev
<mdz> so it's just a seed change
<mdz> " resolvconf in main for managing resolv.conf with multiple networks"
<mdz> covered under network magic
<mdz> HardwareDatabase
<mdz> (cue ominous music)
<sabdfl> another biggie
<mdz> yes
<mdz> fun though
<thom> cue thom running away and hiding
* Keybuk is going to drop out now ... been a 14 hour day
<mdz> sabdfl: bounty or no?
<sabdfl> -cheers Keybuk
<mdz> Keybuk: night
<sabdfl> mdz: need to figure out who will use it
<sabdfl>  - fabbione
<seb128> later Keybuk 
<sabdfl>   - mjg59
<mdz> - herbert
<sabdfl>   - sound config
<thom> it should be interesting and doable - i've had some thoughts on the matter which i need to write up
<sabdfl> kernel cant really adapt itself
<mdz> that stuff will be very useful for the kernel
<thom> sabdfl: which modules get loaded, acpi v apm, etc
<sabdfl> right
<mdz> which devices are present but unrecognized by hotplug
<pitti> thom: do you think hal could be extended for such things? Or do you write another db?
<thom> which modules to blacklist
<mdz> I think using hal would make a huge project even huger
<thom> pitti: different problem space, i think
<elmo> oh, you mean that kind of DB
<pitti> thom: hal 0.4.0 has a lot of extensions, though
<elmo> I thought you meant ZDHW
<mdz> elmo: ZDHW?
<thom> elmo: it'd tie into zero day hardware, i think
<jdub> ZeroDayHardWarez
<mdz> isn't that the same as the hardware db we're talking about?
<thom> pitti: a web DB?
<elmo> mdz: ZDHW is user-orientated
<elmo> (well it is in MY mind ;-)
<elmo> tho, there's certainly overlap
<thom> can we move ZDHW/this to a different meeting? (is it a hoary goal?)
<mdz> I envisioned a client app which would scan the system and ask questions, and upload the information to a central db
<mdz> which would also have a web frontend
<mdz> but mostly we would trawl it for information
<mdz> the web frontend of that = ZDHW?
<thom> mdz: i think so
<sabdfl> could be linked :-)
<mdz> yes, let's treat that separately
<mdz> same database, different app
<sabdfl> so there are several challenges
<bob2> if you're going to ask people to send in info, the db results need to be open
<sabdfl> (a) the design of the database (yay!)
<mdz> I think the collection app is the first step
<pitti> thom: ok, I think I misunderstood the purpose
<sabdfl> (b) the app that collects the data
<sabdfl> (c) figuring out what the data means
<sabdfl> (d) integrating it with the scripts that autoconf the setup
<sabdfl> like x, sound, network, etc
<sabdfl> that's a lot of work
<thom> yes.
<mdz> yes, but we can do it in stages
<mdz> first the db + app
<sivang> wow, and auto bug reproduction system....
<sivang> and=an
<ogra> reproduction ?
<sivang> according to what sabdfl just outline, so it sound like.
<mdz> I think he means the possibility of finding people with similar hardware to try to reporduce bugs
<mdz> which I think is a good application of the system
<mdz> the user could volunteer their contact info so that we could ask them for help in testing
<sabdfl> that's an interesting idea
<ogra> souds good
<thom> eww, that means storing contact info
<sabdfl> make it a two-way flow
<thom> RUN AWAY
<mdz> thom: link to Person :-)
<bob2> hahaha
<jdub> hardware matchmaker!
<sivang> each interested party would list his details on the bugdb, and when the need arise we politely ask him to test
<sabdfl> thom, have you SEEN the database of DOOM recently?
<mdz> jdub: your systems are compatible!
<jdub> "i love matrox too! see you on friday!"
<mdz> this stuff would be very interesting to summarize, too
<sabdfl> "nice cpu's wanna ....'?
<sivang> hahah
<thom> sabdfl: no. but i do need to ask, have you looked into UK regs for personal data storage?
<jdub> a/s/mhz?!?!?!!
<mdz> hah
<sabdfl> thom: hmmm... no
<thom> (the legal stuff, i mean)
<thom> you absolutely utterly need to
<sabdfl> ok
<sabdfl> not sure if we are technically in that part of the uk
<mdz> we're going to store that stuff anyway, so that's not a problem specific to the hardware db
* jdub attempts to upload to hoary...
<sabdfl> jdub: x.org?
<jdub> pre-emptive strike!
<sabdfl> ok, moving on...
<mdz> so thom, you're going to take on the hardware db?
<mdz> with support from the rest of us, of course
<sabdfl> no, let's have a separate meeting for that
<mdz> ok
<thom> mdz: can we have a sep meeting?
<mdz> done
<thom> *phew*
<mdz> moving on
<mdz>  Derivative Distributions
<mdz> what can we do in the hoary timeframe?
<sabdfl> should have a lot of plumbing in place for christmas
<sabdfl> at least for more adventurous / skillful candidates
<mdz> this isn't specifically ubuntu stuff
<mdz> unless you want to do the branding crack
<sabdfl> -yes, exctly
<mdz> it shouldn't require changes to the distribution itself
<mdz> yes to branding crack? or yes to not specifically ubuntu?
<sabdfl> yes to brandability of derivatives
<sabdfl> which touches hoary
<mdz> eek
<mdz> touches?  molests
<sabdfl> easy tiger
<sabdfl> we only deal in mature packages
<mdz> consenting?
<sabdfl> able, certainly
<mdz> ok, that needs a metting and a spec I think
<sabdfl> yes
<mdz> meeting, even
<thom> sabdfl: http://www.informationcommissioner.gov.uk/ for DPA stuff
<azeem> compenentized linux made branding possible some time ago, and people seemed to like it
<jdub> i'm thinking of making ubuntu-artwork divert a bunch of other art-related branding things
<jdub> so you can just replace u-a for all of that
<mdz> " Enforce main/universe separation on buildds (LaMontJones?)"
<mdz> lamont: all you
<doko> he's still away
<mdz> ok
<mdz> that's the end of the list!
<jdub> yayayay
<sabdfl> well done
<mdz> thanks for hanging in there
* jdub dances around like kermit
<mdz> especially those of little sleep
<jdub> 26hrs!
<doko> left out the launchpad integration
<mdz> mako: can we get a transcription and summary?
<bob2> jdub: V.
<sivang> 26hrs in a row?
<mdz> doko: that's another meeting
<sivang> ??
<jdub> bob2: sprite recharge ;)
<bob2> jdub: hah
<seb128> 'night jdub :)
<mdz> meeting adjourned, thanks everyone
* mdz ices his wrists
<sivang> thank you
<bob2> 4:35, hard core
<mvo__> thanks mdz
* jdub goes to pay attention to pipka
<thom> g'night
<seb128> 'night thom 
<sabdfl> cheers all, thanks mdz
<pitti> night
<doko> thanks for the moderation
<seb128> 'night everybody
<mdz> I'll write up my notes for the wiki
<jdub> thanks mdz
<sivang> night thom
<ogra> thanks for enabling us to participate :)
<sivang> mdz : you're gonna do this on the new wiki?
<mdz> sivang: yes
<mdz> a bit later, need a break
<sivang> ah ofcourse
<sivang> :)
<jdub> new wiki hurts my brain :|
<sabdfl> jdub: i'm thinking we should keep moin format as recommended default
<jdub> sabdfl: what about the tables?
<jdub> inline html, or...?
<sabdfl> jdub: we got tables in
<sabdfl> i don't like the moin format but we can handle it now
<sabdfl> (moing table format)
<jdub> oh!
<jdub> cool
<sivang> sabdfl : would it be ok of you to discuss things like wiki integration and other doc related stuff on CC meeting? or do you prefer it to be a seperate one?
<sabdfl> sivang yes please put it in the agenda
<doko> mdz: please put my name to the TestingInfrastructure thing, at least as a co-worker
<sivang> sabdfl : ok np. I've already added to it
<mako> mdz: yes
<sivang> night all
<Kamion> mdz: restricted/installer is trivial, it's a "file a bug and wait for Kamion to have a spare hour" routine
<Kamion> mdz: TestingInfrastructure> have I already massively pimped joeyh's d-i autoinstall framework at you? it's awesome
<Kamion> mdz: he's been doing full CD tests out of cron lately
<Kamion> works with iLO, which IIRC we have on some of our boxes
<mdz> doko: ok
<mdz> mako: thanks
<mdz> Kamion: sounds very interesting, where can we get more info/
<Kamion> mdz: svn://svn.debian.org/d-i/people/joeyh/autoinstall/ is probably the best place for now
<sabdfl> Kamion: we have iLO on the new itaniums, and please go ahead on the restricted-free option
<elmo> nah, we don't, iLO is an x86 server only option
<elmo> the Itaniums have something much less fun, called "MP"
<Kamion> however joeyh also does have something going on ia64, may not be with iLO
<Kamion> I think it's just netboot over serial console
#ubuntu-meeting 2004-11-06
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:mdz] : Community Council meeting, 2004-10-26 1600UTC || Agenda: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda
* bluefoxicy idles here until 16:00UTC . . . 14 hours from now. . . it's 10pm . . .12 noon?
<ctalkep> hi
<ctalkep> what's going on with the meeting??
<Seveas> ctalkep, see http://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda
<ctalkep> Seveas, thanks, but when is 1600 UTC?
<Seveas> in less then 7 hours
<Seveas> it is now 09:20 UTC
<ctalkep> Seveas, ok, thanks, how do i chek the utc time anyway?
<Seveas> I alway just remember the difference between my local time and UTC
<Seveas> :)
<ctalkep> Seveas, doing it the hard way...:)
<Seveas> http://www.time.gov/timezone.cgi?UTC/s/0/java
<ctalkep> Seveas, waht MastersOfTheUniverse might be?
<Seveas> I think that is about administering the "Universe" repository
<ctalkep> Seveas, thanks a lot
<Seveas> np
<Gmail> what was the out come of last nights meeting?
<Kamion> there was no one single outcome; it was a very long meeting involving going through all the hoary goals, deciding which to do and which to leave for later, allocating them to people, and debating some of the details
<Gmail> gfx installer?
<Kamion> not committing to it for hoary but we're going to start the work; may not land until grumpy
<bluefoxicy> meeting is what 3 hours?
<bluefoxicy> I've got 12:48UTC here
<thom> yep, 3 hours looks right
<daniels> yeah, 3h is right
<Gmail> WEEEE
<Gmail> am i on the wrong side of the netspilt?
<Gmail> or not?
<Seveas> depends on what you call good and wrong
<Seveas> if you dan't want to be near me, you're at the wrong side obviously >:)
<sparkes> could be a non productive meeting if this doesn't get sorted today
<DacInBC> Do I have the right time?
<asw> in one hour? 
<DacInBC> damn I thought I was 5 minutes away, I seem to be off by an hour
<Kamion> well, we have three community council members here, can't be that bad
<asw> hi Kamion. I really enjoyed chatting with you the other day. 
<bluefoxicy> o.x tired
<jmchugh> quit
* mako waves to everyone
* T-Bone waves back
* bluefoxicy yawns and tailwaves
<mdz> who is running the CC meeting today?
<sivang> you maybe ? :)
<sivang> sabdfl ?
<ctalkep> hi guys
<mdz> he'll join shortly
<sivang> ProactiveSecurity is the first one?
<sabdfl> hi all
<sivang> hey sabdfl
<Kamion> ProactiveSecurity isn't a CC matter; it should be discussed elsewhere, maybe ubuntu-devel and then the tech board if there's a controversial decision to be taken
<johnlevin> hi sabdfl
<johnlevin> hi sivang
<sabdfl> Kamion: agreed, let me get things rolling
<sabdfl> elmo, mako, around?
<sivang> ok
<mako> sabdfl: yep
<sivang> so the new developers mentoring maybe?
<Kamion> sabdfl: sorry to preempt, was mainly answering a question from sivang from just before you joined
<sabdfl> noprob, was late, apologies
<sabdfl> sivang: let's get elmo in here
<sivang> Kamion : you did ? what did I ask?
<Kamion> 17:01 < sivang> ProactiveSecurity is the first one?
<sivang> :)
<sivang> oh
<sivang> :)
<elmo> here
<sivang> hey elmo
<sabdfl> elmo: was just sms'ing a fly for the trout :-)
<sabdfl> ok, let's get going
<sabdfl> JohnMoser, around?
<mdz> not here
<sabdfl> not sure what his nick is on irc, but I agree with Kamion
<Kamion> that's bluefoxicy I think
<sabdfl> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda
<Kamion> 16:54  * bluefoxicy yawns and tailwaves
<Kamion> maybe gone to bed
<mdz> ah
<mako> five minutes before the meeting :)
<bluefoxicy> huh?
<bluefoxicy> hi
<Kamion> ah, there
<sabdfl> having said that, he did phrase it in a "what does the community want" sort of way, so let's address that
<sabdfl> technical discussion is tech board's department
* bluefoxicy John Moser
<bluefoxicy> Yes, I'm sure it'll be a very short discussion
<sabdfl> bluefoxicy: care to comment?
<bluefoxicy> the tech board will be where the deep discussion occurs on proactive security.  :)
<bluefoxicy> sabdfl:  about Proactive Security?  (*first time here*)
<sabdfl> do we need to discuss this here? your hnt was intriguing but oblique
<Kamion> actually I'd say the deep discussion should happen on ubuntu-devel; the tech board should take any hard decisions that aren't clear to the development community, I feel
<sabdfl> bluefoxicy: this is the community council meeting
<sabdfl> mainly, we are focused on how the ubuntu community organises itself
<sabdfl> roles and responsibilities
<sabdfl> appointments and policies
<bluefoxicy> sabdfl:  Ah.  I know nothing.  :)
<sabdfl> bluefoxicy: ok, then please read the governance section of the web site for future agenda items :-)
<bluefoxicy> sabdfl:  Would it be appropriate to skip the topic altogether and move it to a more appropriate forum?
<Kamion> is there a group of people interested in investigating this kind of issue, perhaps with the toolchain people?
<sabdfl> bluefoxicy: yes, thanks
<mdz> Kamion: I have a couple of names
<sabdfl> let's move on to mentoring
<Kamion> OK, maybe we can revisit this when there's some kind of appointment to be made
* bluefoxicy decides to stick around to get a better grasp on what goes on here, backgrounds.
<sivang> probably now ubuntu is laking manpower to do mentroing, IMHO
<sabdfl> we haven't done a good enough job of mapping out a "new maintainer" process
<sabdfl> maybethat's a good focus for discussion now
<sabdfl> and will lead us nicely into the "masters of the universe" topic
<sabdfl> can I throw it open for discussion on:
<sabdfl>  - what sort of process we want for maintainer appointments
<sabdfl>  - how we'll distinguish between universe and main maintainers, if at all
<sabdfl>  - how mentoring can fit into that framework
<sabdfl> ?
<sabdfl> fire away
<Kamion> before touching process, I think we need to know what criteria we expect maintainers to fulfil before accepting them
<Henri1> Perhaps one should set up a list of 'Junior Jobs', like KDE has, which are easy dev tasks for beginners to start on. I think they do it in bugzilla in fact.
<sabdfl> Kamion: also, need to define the responsibilities and authority, so we know how much good / damage a maintainer could do
<mdz> at the BOF in Oxford, we outlined a scheme which involved a natural progression from someone who submits patches through being a team leader
<T-Bone> sabdfl: what about gateways for say "people who are already debian maintainers"?
<mdz> and what responsibilities would be involved at each level of commitment
<mako> Kamion: a lot of those "answers" are up here: http://www.ubuntulinux.org/community/maintainers
<sabdfl> t-bone: yes, this makes sense
<sivang> T-Bone : this has already been used:) AFAIK
<sabdfl> in a real sense a dd is already an ubuntu maintainer
<Kamion> at the universe level, at least
<sabdfl> because when we are in hotsync mode an upload to debian is effectively also an upload to ubuntu
<Kamion> mako: ah, yes
<T-Bone> sabdfl: good to know. Given how long the Debian NM process is, i'd rather not go through it twice ;)
<mako> well, in a similar, so is an upstream.. but in relation to unierse, it is clearly the case
<mako> T-Bone: i don't think the goal is to replicate NM :)
<mako> at least, it's not my goal
<sabdfl> t-bine in addition to this it makes sense to have a fast track for proven dd's
<T-Bone> mako: *G* ;)
<T-Bone> sabdfl: right
<sabdfl> i'd like us to have fast track processes for people who are upstream
<sabdfl> as mako points out, it's their code we are shipping
<Kamion> there are upstreams and upstreams, of course
<mako> i'd like us to fast track processes for anyone who has proven they are technical competant and socially capable :)
<mako> and motivated enough to stick around :)
<sabdfl> hmm... having written http://www.ubuntulinux.org/community/maintainers i'm finding it hard to disagree with it :-)
<T-Bone> mako: hehe; gonna make yourself a few friends ;)
<sabdfl> Kamion: naturally :-)
<mdz> and being an upstream does not usually qualify you to make packaging decisions
<Kamion> worth noting that we've had an upstream come very close to trying to trojan Debian in the past
<mako> if we know those things, and if the TB and CC can sign off on it, we're good to go
<sabdfl> Kamion: not a risk we can mitigate from serious projects
<T-Bone> both mdz and Kamion are right too
<sabdfl> we agreed TB and CC both need to sign off on a new maintainer
<mdz> most upstreams have zero experience with packaging, having relied on others to do it
* mako remembers at least one of them
<sabdfl> so fast track is fine, given that we have a review process
<mdz> what will the input to the review process be, though?
<sabdfl> i think in the early days we will get by with track record and community credibility
<sabdfl> i don't think we should decline Linus' request to maintain the kernel
<sabdfl> should it come :-)
<mdz> I think linus would be a fairly crap kernel package maintainer, to be honest :-)
<T-Bone> sabdfl: you'll have to define "community credibility" tho, adn that's not gonna be trivial, i'm afraid
<mako> mdz: well in your role on the TB, you'd be able to make that position heard IRT linus :)
<sabdfl> t-bone, to a certain extent we can be brutal in the beginning
<sivang> what is going to be done to allow new people into the NM / devel process? many want to assist and help in development, but don't know how to start.
<Kamion> in the early days, do we expect to have enough CC bandwidth to review candidates individually?
<T-Bone> sabdfl: agreed
<mako> Kamion: yes
<sabdfl> Kamion: i would rely heavily on peer assessment
<mdz> what about people that we don't already know, either personally or by reputation?  that's where we need additional input into the process
<mako> i mean sort of.. they will be mentored
<mako> and will have done work
<Kamion> I realise we won't, in the long run; but the experience will let us work out what we need from peer assessment
<mako> mdz: we ask them to find a mentor and to work in the community until they we do know them
<mako> mdz: until we do know them
<Kamion> sabdfl: that's fine, I'm just trying to work out whether we can get away without trying to delegate an essentially undefined process right from the start :-)
<sabdfl> we could think of this as an exercise in pipelining
<Kamion> we can delegate once it's better-defined
<sabdfl> we need to setup the pipeline, defining where people need to start
<sabdfl> for example, have a page that lists work that needs doing
<sabdfl> and a commitment to review submissions against that list
<sabdfl> and keep track of who has done what
<sivang> sabdfl : finally :)
<sabdfl> as people progress up that list, we'll get a sense of their progress
<mdz> who will do that bookkeeping?
<Kamion> mdz: of course, we don't necessarily have to be as focused on packaging as Debian is; most of our wishlist is development more than packaging
<sabdfl> so for absolute community newbies, they always know where they stand
<mdz> Kamion: true
<mako> so.. i guess my question is what is missing from the maintainers page now?
<mdz> Kamion: in our progression, though, we defined a maintainer as someone who makes new releases of packages
<sabdfl> i would very much like to keep an explicit test of packaging policy knowledge in the pipeline
<mdz> which is firmly in packaging territory
<T-Bone> sabdfl: looks like what you're defining is basically a BTS with assignement tracking
<sabdfl> mdz: do you have a url for those stages?
<mdz> sabdfl: I have a text file of my notes
<mdz> could paste it here
<sabdfl> t-bone: and a record of quality of work done
<sabdfl> mdz: go for it
<T-Bone> bugs are filed, with a "difficulty" markup, and assigned to volunteers
<mdz> patcher
<mdz>         makes changes in their own branches
<mdz>         uses branches to submit their changes to committers and maintainers
<mdz>         anyone can do this
<mdz>         essentially unprivileged, but much more fun than the unprivileged mode
<mdz>         of most projects
* asw wonders if mdz could post the text file to devel
<mdz> -> commit rights
<mdz>         can merge their stuff into mainline
<mdz>         granted by maintainer
<mdz> -> maintainership
<mdz>         can issue a new official release
<mdz> -> team leadership
<mdz> -> technical council & governance council
<mdz>         include team leaders for decisions
<mdz> this was jdub's BOF; I expected he would post notes to the wiki
<mdz> so a patcher is essentially unprivileged, someone who is interested in doing work
<mdz> but we provide means for them to trivially submit their changes to committers and maintainers
<sabdfl> quite a lot of that depends on a good revision control system, which we do not have right ow
<mdz> that sounds like the right place to start, where this review would take place
<sabdfl> can we make this workable on a straight "flying patches" basis?
<mdz> well, making it trivial requires that
<mako> mdz: send that file to me and i will post it in the summary for the meeting
<mdz> sending patches is more work, but we can streamline that process as well
<mdz> mako: ok
<mdz> mako: they're raw
<sabdfl> ok. we have the MaintainerCandidates page on the wiki
<mdz> we could provide a simple command line tool or two to manage a patch queue
<sabdfl> mdz: ?
<mdz> sabdfl: so I've downloaded the source for a package, and make some changes
* sabdfl didnt think that he would ever hear "simple command line tool" and "revision control system" in the same line again
<mdz> sabdfl: we could make it easy to turn that into a patch and drop it someplace where it caneb reviewed
<sabdfl> bts?
<mdz> sabdfl: ah, that's because I was talking about doing this before revision control :-)
<mdz> I would actually prefer that it be more streamlined than a BTS
<mdz> that's part of the problem with the Debian contributor approach
<sabdfl> mdz: would you like a dedicated system for tracking each of these patches, in a queue?
<mdz> having to file a bug to submit something creates this negative ethos around the process
<mdz> maintainers take it as criticism, contributors shy away from it
<mdz> sabdfl: yes, but very very simple
<sabdfl> mdz: ok
<mdz> at its core it would take as input a source package and a working tree, and a description (log message)
* mako is still a little doubtful about another system
<mdz> and drop the patch into a directory where the maintainer can review it
<sabdfl> i don't think i can add another project to the development queue and have it ready before the december conf
<mdz> if the deadline is december, perhaps we can do better ;-)
<sabdfl> i can definitely do better, but it will be a trade of this for the bug tracker, sooner
<Kamion> it doesn't really want to be web-driven anyway, could just be mail triggered by a command-line tool
<mdz> this shouldn't be contingent on implementation details, anyway; the important thing is the role
<sabdfl> from my side we want to promise two things:
<Gmail> as we are on the subject of package maintanor i wound like to add: can the package maintanor add the program to gnome menu and kde menu when it makes sence to like all games should be in the games menu or you can do what debian does and make a ubuntu menu. </my-2cents>
<sabdfl>  - rapid review of patches, so candidates get steady, reliable feedback
<sabdfl>   - an insititutional memory of the quality of work that was done, so candidates build up a track record
<mdz> Gmail: that would be a technical decision to be made by the desktop team
<mako> Gmail: i think that's a slightly different topic.. and perhaps more for teh technical board
<sivang> sabdfl : insititutional <== maybe documented in some sort
<sabdfl> yes
<mdz> it screams revision control, doesn''t it?
<sabdfl> i'd lke people to be able to point at a web page somewhere and say "that's my contribution to date"
<mdz> s/"/'/
<sabdfl> yes, and database
<sabdfl> hmm.... :-)
<sabdfl> ?
<Gmail> isnt it the package manigers job to package stuff correctly? so it will be his job to package it that stuff gets added to the menu??
<bob2> hehe
<Henri1> A dedicated phpBB board where patchers write a short message describing their patch, and include it as an attachment?
<elmo> sabdfl: damn, dude, I'm surprised you manage to have lunch without finding a reason to design a database for it :-P
<sabdfl> elmo: it's already in the design: industrial karma, remember?
<mdz> Gmail: it is the package maintainer's responsibility to follow the technical direction of the project
<Henri1> Could be set up in hours and would track user participation
<sabdfl> just not in the implementation  pipeline yet
<mako> i don't think having a fully tracked full-blown database is necessary for determining if people do work to the point where they would make good maintainers
<Kamion> Henri1: I don't think most people want to fire up a web browser just to send a patch ...
<Kamion> Henri1: these people are already at the command-line doing work there
<sabdfl> ok, simplest option is to have a place that the maintainers can write to that says "i agree, xxx did this work, it was good"
<mako> i think we should insist on maintainers being mentored and trust that a lot.. and then expect maintainers to come forth with evidence of their continued and long-term good work :)
<mako> sabdfl: yeah, provide links
<Henri1> I guess I'm more gui and web based than most :)
* sivang agrees with mako
<sabdfl> ok, here's a proposal
<elmo> is the maintainers for MOTU or something else, btw?
<sabdfl> we put the cv tracking in the hands of the maintainer candidate
<sabdfl> on the wiki
<stvn> A
<mako> sabdfl: a fully blown echelon system would be great, or even a little brother system, but it's a lot of work and not essential :)
<sabdfl> so when someone has a patch accepted they add it to their wiki, with a comment from the mentor
<mako> an "application" to the technical board should include evidence of work in ubuntu and/or debian over a period of time
<mako> ergh. to the CC/TB
<T-Bone> don't want to sound too dark here, but managing maintainers also includes managing their removal, which can happen for various reasons (among which stands self-retiring, and inactive maintainers)
<mako> T-Bone: right, we've got automatic retiring if people don't renew it
<sabdfl> t-bone: what mako said
<T-Bone> i think elmo has some figures about how many inactive maintainers we have in debian already :}
<mako> sabdfl: which i was less excited about last time but super excited about now having talked to some folks about the way it works in freebsd :)
<Kamion> sabdfl: that works for me, puts the onus on the prospective maintainer, and we can do a quick check for truthfulness
<T-Bone> mako: ok
<sabdfl> yes
<mako> T-Bone: tbm is the one who has done that research AFAIK
<sabdfl> ok
<sabdfl> here's another suggestion
<sabdfl> let's use the existing bts's for tracking the status of the actual patch
<sabdfl> so say a bug gets opened, and a candidate wants to hepl out
<sabdfl> they put a note saying they are working on a patch
<sabdfl> they attach the patch and then ask for a review
<thom> sabdfl: like the mozilla review and superreview stuff?
<mako> perhaps they cc a list
<sabdfl> when the patch is accepted, they can ad that bug to their wiki cv
<Kamion> thom: could be just by the maintainer in our case
<sabdfl> thom: yes
<Kamion> (which is kind of like mozilla sr I guess)
<sabdfl> we should offer a promise of a review within a certain timeframe
<thom> yeah, sr is the component owner, so =~ maintainer for us
<sabdfl> 48 hours
<sabdfl> so people don't work on patches that sit in limbo
<sabdfl> but, at the same time, we don't have to promise to try to turn turds into diamonds
<Kamion> perhaps 2 working days rather than 48 hours
<thom> sabdfl: a week is probably more reasonable ; aim for 48 hours, promise a week
* Kamion doesn't want to commit to working weekends :-)
<sabdfl> if the patch is b0rked, say so, 
<sabdfl> and move on
<sabdfl> with maybe a hint as to where to look for better results
<sabdfl> ok, happy for mdz and his team to set the level of the commitment they are comfortable
<sabdfl> with
<sabdfl> is this sounding workable?
<sivang> what about stuff other then docs that entails you to be called a maintainer? or is packaging most of it?
<mdz> I think we can implement it, yes
<Kamion> we haven't really done mentoring as such yet. perhaps mentors could act to review patches as well as the component maintainer?
<Kamion> that seems like a reasonably straightforward way to go about it, and IIRC bugzilla has some support for that kind of thing
<sabdfl> sivang: i'm open to suggestions as to how we can get doc writers to have full commit capability
<sabdfl> i think mentoring here is the general process of "reviewing patches" 
<sabdfl> hopefully people strike up personal relationships
<mdz> there is much more to it than reviewing patches
<sabdfl> if someone gets along well with an existing ubuntu maintainer, they will naturally ask them for guidance
<hornbeck> sabdfl: I think if doc writers are to have permission to commit they need to be mentored by dev's first in the proper way of doing everythin
<mdz> there should be some assistance given to the process of learning how the system is put together, in order to make effective patches
<sabdfl> mdz: elaborate?
<sabdfl> hornbecK: i would trust that a doc writer would not commit code changes, if that's part of the social structure and agreement
<mdz> sabdfl: what will we provide in order to allow the contributor to get to the point of making effective patches?
<hornbeck> sabdfl: true
<mdz> probably a lot of documentation
<mako> hornbeck: if we can't trust doc writers to not upload kernels they shouldn't be maintiners
<hornbeck> mako: understood
<sabdfl> mako: disagree
<mako> being a maintainer is ultimately about trust
<sabdfl> hmm... maybe agree, depending on how i interpret your words
<mdz> sabdfl: I think he was agreeing with you
<sabdfl> mako: yes, exactly
<sivang> sabdfl : agreed
<sabdfl> and that goes for docs as much as code
<mako> sabdfl: i think i agreed with you, so i suspect i'm just being opaque :)
<sabdfl> ok
<mdz> one of the points of consensus from oxford was that we would promote social solutions over technical ones for problems like this
<sabdfl> so an ubuntu maintainer is "someone with a track record of consistent, regular and excellent contributions to ubuntu"
<sabdfl> "who has the ability to make changes to ubuntu packages without reference to other maintainers when outside of freeze"
<sabdfl> sound good?
<sabdfl> could be docs, design, code
<sivang> sabdfl : how do we quantify that ?
<hornbeck> sounds good to me
<sabdfl> sivang: once you are in you are in
<sabdfl> at least, all of the above makes sense for main
<mdz> sabdfl: the key distinction of a maintainer from the governance BOF was that they can make new releases of a package
<sabdfl> what about universe / multiverse?
<mdz> that distinguishes them from someone with commit access who is not yet a maintainer
<sabdfl> mdz: when we have commit without upload, that will be meaningful :-)
<mdz> true enough
<sabdfl> ok
<sabdfl> mako, could you draw up a draft process
<sabdfl> using bugzilla
<sabdfl> how someone would flag a contribution for review
<sabdfl> and the commitment we make to that pipeline
<sabdfl> also, we need to discuss a test of knowledge of packaging policy
<sabdfl> i think that's importand for -doc and -dev teams 
<sabdfl> what's the best way to administer such a test?
* mako nods to sabdfl 
<sabdfl> mdz, kamion?
<mdz> that's the NM problem
<mako> sabdfl: i think the best test is just doing it
<Kamion> I'd rather the test be based on what people have produced
<T-Bone> heh, indeed
<mdz> if there were a straightforward solution, NM wouldn't be such a mess :-)
<Kamion> heh, mako> snap
<sabdfl> agreed, past product is essential
<sabdfl> but it's also useful to know if someone can actually give the right answer immediately without reference to the docs
<Kamion> you can't really test that, though, not without being in the same room
<mdz> having immediate recall is not all that important
<mako> the point is, if you have producing debs for debian for the last 4 years, ubuntu for the last 4 months, there is no need to ask you 50 questions on packing :)
<sabdfl> what about a telephone interview, answering 10 questions out of a possible 200?
<mdz> it lets you work faster, but not more effectively
<mako> sabdfl: i don't think that's important at all
<mdz> I find that a far better indication of the quality of someone's work is that they know when to look in the docs or ask questions
<Kamion> sabdfl: I'd much rather that somebody knew where to look in the docs than that they made up answers without looking
<sabdfl> mako: we don't want to tell people to go somewhere else for 4 years
<mako> sabdfl: in fact, knowing when to look at the docs
<T-Bone> sabdfl: telephone interview implies that the candidate is fluent in its interviewer language, too
<mako> sabdfl: that was an example of an overqualified applicatoin, not a suggestion for where the bar should be
<sivang> sabdfl : this is the exact feeling I've been getting :(
<sabdfl> Kamion: if they make up the answers, they are unlikely to get them right, ad they fail the test
<Kamion> sabdfl: the Debian NM "answer enormous numbers of arbitrary questions with no relevance to your work" is one of its biggest flaws
<mako> Kamion: AOL
<sabdfl> Kamion: agreed, and tb/cc can see past that
<Kamion> sabdfl: if the questions were relevant to their work, then the answers would already be demonstrably part of the work they've produced
<sabdfl> but i still think we should know that a maintainer, doc or dev, has really read and taken on board those documents
<Kamion> not to mention, experienced developers look up the documentation all the time
<sabdfl> sure
<Kamion> it's simply not a good use of brain cells to memorise them
<mdz> agreed
* mako nods
<sabdfl> and a reasonable answer might be "hell yes, i know that's in plicy under this section, i can't quite remember if it's this dir or that dir"
<mako> if you haven't read policy, you make policy mistakes
<Henri1> A telephone interview doesn't have to be standard questions, but could just rely on the interviewers judgement.
<Kamion> ok, if that's to be considered an acceptable answer, then fine
<sabdfl> but i feel strongly that an expectation of study and test is part of the process, if a small part
<sivang> sabdfl : do we have an ubuntu policy already? or are we reverting to debia's ?
<T-Bone> Henri1: still, there's the problem of language fluency
<sabdfl> T-Bone: we would accommodate that
<sivang> you could just being thoughtful for people who's english not their native tounge.
<mako> sabdfl: i'm worried that it is in danger of repliucating the parts of NM i like are most flawed
<sabdfl> sivang: eloquently put
<Kamion> it inevitably does colour an interviewer's judgement
<sivang> wait more for the answer, guide the person if he's on the right track
<sabdfl> :-)
<T-Bone> sabdfl: i honestly wonder how ;) Besides, people might not necessarily feel cumfortable in a telephone interview, though being potentially very good packagers...
<sabdfl> irc
<Henri1> People have to communicate to submit patches anyway
<mdz> where possible, we should match candidates with mentors who can converse with them in the language where they are most comfortable
<Kamion> IRC interviews are much superior to telephone interviews for our purposes
<sabdfl> yes
<T-Bone> right
<Henri1> agree IRC sounds good
<sabdfl> ok, i think we're on the same basic track
<T-Bone> Henri1: it's much more easier to _write_ in a foreign language than to speak it fluently; for you have _time_ to consider what you're writing
<Henri1> For most people :)  
<T-Bone> and writings don't suffer from incomprehensible accents ;^)
<sabdfl> people will start by submitting patches, for review, managed in the bts
<sabdfl> they willkeep trak of actual work done
<mako> i think there are some very nice things we can do in an irc interview and it's worth following up .. but i still don't really like the idea of expecting peopel to memorize policy and be tested.. 
<sparkes> T-Bone, as someone with a strong accent I second that ;-)
<sabdfl> they will progress to the point they want to be considered as a maintainer
<sabdfl> they will understand that they will be tested, in an appropriate communications medium, on policy
<sabdfl> mako, i think it's vital people see it as a real test of knowledge
<sabdfl> you can be brilliant, and still clueless
<Kamion> mako: we can leave the extent of the test up to the judgement of the tester, I think
<T-Bone> absolutely right
<Kamion> don't think the CC needs to prescribe that just yet
<sabdfl> we'll have fast-track for people who can justify it
<sabdfl> dd's, upstreams-not-on-crack
<T-Bone> lol
<Henri1> An open book IRC test, where people have a chance to look stuff up
<sabdfl> judge's decision is final no correspondence will be entered into
<Kamion> above all, don't waste people's time when they're clearly good, and don't waste our time on people who are clearly hopeless :-)
<sabdfl> yes
<sabdfl> we should NOT promise that anybody can be a maintainer
* mako nods
<sabdfl> i won't be afraid to decline an application, i'll ask mdz to do the same
<T-Bone> sounds good
<hornbeck> thats the way it should be
<sivang> Again I am still puzzled how we can quantify the issue, especially for doc writers.
<mako> sabdfl: right, i see the argument for the test. i won't block consensus on it or anything but i'm not wild about it either, that's it
<mdz> the trick is to decline in a way that doesn't discourage improvement and re-submission
<sabdfl> sivang, we cant, but it's in our interests to try to build a healthy community of good people
<sabdfl> mako: let's see how it goes and tweak process based on experience
<sabdfl> ok, for a complete newbie, i expect the process to take... how long?
<sabdfl> 4-12 months depending on ability?
<sivang> that;s the question I was after..:)
<sabdfl> Kamion, elmo, mdz?
<mdz> hard to say
* Kamion isn't sure "complete newbie" is a useful place to start, it covers a multitude of sind
<Kamion> sins
<T-Bone> right
<sivang> I'll give myself as an example,
<Kamion> somebody who can code but doesn't know anything about Ubuntu? couple of months
<sabdfl> ok, say someone who is a fast learner and puts in the time, knows linux well but not ubuntu or debian
<mdz> sabdfl: a complete newbie to the process, or a complete newbie to Debian packaging?
<mdz> hmm
<Kamion> somebody who already has a good working knowledge of Linux and puts in the time? a month or so
<sabdfl> ok, we'll just have to find out
* asw offers self as test case.  me too.
<sivang> Knowing some Debian and linux, knowing how to code
<Kamion> but this is all finger-in-the-air made-up numbers :-)
<mdz> it's much more a factor of their attitude and commitment than the time
<sabdfl> ok
<sabdfl> ok
<sivang> having troubles with packaging though,
<mdz> I know people who, even though they are completely ignorant of Debian packaging, I would trust them to begin work immediately, because I know that where they don't know the answer, they would seek it out
<T-Bone> sabdfl: if that's just about "learning packaging practices", (someone who's definitely not a newbie then), i'd say that 1 month is a max
<sabdfl> it will be hard to say no to some enthusiastic guys, but mdz is right, it's more a question of deferrment till the level of quality is right
<DacInBC> here's another example: long time programmer, linux experience, no debian or ubuntu experience
<mako> mdz: yesyesyes
<Kamion> (took me about six months from starting to mess about with Debian packages to even applying, and that wasn't because I was put off by the process; admittedly I was doing finals at the time)
<mdz> that is the kind of quality that I look for
<sivang> sabdfl : meaning I should not ask, until i have _exhusted_ all other resources?
<mako> mdz: right, me too
<sabdfl> all other resources?
<sivang> docs,howtos,
<asw> I've used debian for years and GNU/Linux since forever but I thought package maintainers were some kind of gods... 
<sivang> mailing lists (debian)
<sivang> etc
<Kamion> sivang: there's no sense wasting your time when you're clearly stuck and need guidance, but at the same time you shouldn't expect other people to read you the documentation
<sabdfl> no, ask on -devel
<sabdfl> but read whatever you are pointed to
<sivang> Kamion : I wasn't expecting that. Just had time where I dind't know _what_ the docs are 
<sabdfl> Kamion: snap
<sivang> i mena, where to read
<Kamion> sivang: certainly 'tis fair to ask for pointers
<sivang> I mean, going over /doc at debian's sure has lots of inof,
<sabdfl> ok, another thing we could do is publish a maintainers reading list :-)
<sivang> info
<mdz> in general, if I answer with a google URL which finds you the answer with some obvious keywords, you should have searched first :-)
<sabdfl> ok
<sabdfl> mako, could you also put together a set of url's to relevant docs for new maintainers?
<sabdfl> hornbeck: this could also be a useful focus for the -doc team
<mako> sabdfl: yes
<asw> sabdfl, all: I think keeping an up-to-date reading list on the wiki is a great idea.  
<sivang> mdz : ahh, I agree. I would contribute this to an overwhelmning enthusiasm. I am working to tame this , I think you've already felt that :)
<sabdfl> great
<mako> if the doc team wants it, that's be great
<mako> my plate is brimming already :)
<hornbeck> sabdfl: putting together some maintainer guides?
<mako> hornbeck: yeah, we can talk after the meeting about it
<hornbeck> sabdfl: or pointing to them
<sabdfl> hornbeck: yes
<sivang> mako : that'll be great
* mako nods to sivang 
<hornbeck> mako: will do
<sabdfl> hornbeck: start with pointing, then write better ones?
<sabdfl> i *think* that takes us to the masters-of-the-universe discussion
<sivang> mdz : I apologize hereby for all those link questions :)
<hornbeck> sabdfl: sounds great
<mdz> sivang: :-)
<mako> enrico: ciao
<enrico> hello!
<sabdfl> let me outline the goals:
<sabdfl>  - the core team is focused on main
<sabdfl>  - universe and multiverse for warty were largely just a frozen snapshot
<sabdfl>    (with a bit of a nudge to build)
<sabdfl>  - for hoary, we want a process where the community can garden universe and multiverse
<sabdfl>   - mainly focused at sync from debian and other sources
<sabdfl>  - aimed at closing rc bugs before the release, during the freeze
<sabdfl> but this could be expanded to include:
<sabdfl>  - uploads of brand new packages that don't exist elsewhere
<sabdfl>  - uploads of fixes that are better than a sync to sid
<sabdfl> phew
<sabdfl> comments, thoughts, volunteers?
<mdz> sounds about right
<elmo> bear in mind that gardening of universe increases the merge load
<mdz> elmo: gardening includes  merging :-)
<pitti> As I already said on the ML, I think it would be good to focus primarily on sid
<hornbeck> sabdfl: are you looking for a few people to sit for request and be the ones who work through them?
<elmo> okay, as long as that's clear (to the gardeners
<pitti> having sid packages will ease maintenance in the long run
<asw> sabdfl: you know I'd like to do this: "uploads of brand new packages that don't exist elsewhere"
<Kamion> particularly for uploads of brand new packages, I would like some (not necessarily all) of the mastersoftheuniverse to take responsibility for pushing what we do back to Debian, where appropriate
<pitti> Kamion: +1 :-)
<sabdfl> hornbeck: i would like the outcome of this discussion to be a process that can run itself largely without input from the core team
<mako> Kamion: ++
<sabdfl> it would be a major responsibility in that regard
<DacInBC> sabdfl: Same here on the new packages, I want to develop some
<hornbeck> sabdfl: alright
<sivang> anyway, I have to go now people, I hope mako would summerize it all
<pitti> a Master of the Universe should be a DD in all cases
<sivang> mako : :)
<mako> sivang: i will
<Kamion> this isn't to say that people can't do work directly in hoary/universe, and there will be people who are interested who aren't Debian developers, and I think that's fair
<asw> I think the "universe" could be a gentle path to becoming an ubuntu maintainer.  is that the idea? 
<Kamion> pitti: I wouldn't go that far, although it depends what "Master" is
<pitti> even if a package is not in Sid, being a DD ensures at least a minimal quality standard on audit
<sabdfl> asw: yes
<asw> kamion: absolutely (re pushing back to debian)
<mako> pitti: not necessarily
<pitti> Kamion: if a MOU wants to sponsor uploads to Debian, it will be good if he is a DD
<lamont> pitti: MOTU should not require DD-hood
<Kamion> pitti: there need to be some people taking responsibility for it, but it doesn't have to be all of them
<pitti> The problem is, when we play around with our own universe only, the merging problem will aggravate badly over time
<sabdfl> ubuntu is not a subset of debian
<lamont> pitti: being a debian developer ensures that you can write lengthy answers to arcane questions.
<lamont> it says nothing about package quality
<pitti> lamont: :-)
<mdz> we can make it very easy for Debian to incorporate our work
<mdz> but we cannot do Debian's work for them
<lamont> mdz ++
<pitti> well, it's the same as a driver's license. Most drivers don't behave well anyway, but at least they (should) know what "good behavior" is
<Kamion> mdz: I'd like us to be doing active liaison
<mdz> Kamion: agreed, I am saying that we should not be doing package uploads as part of that process
<Kamion> rather than just "here's a repository of stuff"
<mako> Kamion: i think it's very important
<mako> mdz: no
<pitti> lamont: if I look at the packages my applicants presented me, it does make a difference to be a DD
<mako> mdz: as in, i agree
<Kamion> mdz: s/doing/requiring/ and I'd agree
<Kamion> I think it's a useful optional step, and it will ease our merge load in the long run
<pitti> I think pointing "Debian" (whoever that is) to a repo of stuff won't do anything
<pitti> there's nobody in Debian who goes around and collects packages
<Kamion> also if we do active liaison we increase the likelihood that Debian will take our packages rather than some other ones, further simplifying the merge load
<pitti> Debian packages need a maintainer and they must be pushed into Debian, not pulled
<mdz> I agree that active liaison is beneficial and appropriate
<Kamion> if we don't do that, we're going to run into the situation where we have to choose between the packaging in Debian and the packaging in Ubuntu
<Kamion> and version number / upgrade problems etc. will ensue
<pitti> so we shouldn't enforce it, but encourage?
<mdz> but I do not feel that uploading Ubuntu packages to Debian is appropriate, unless the Ubuntu maintainer is also a Debian maintainer and will fulfill the duties of that role
<Kamion> mdz: that's why I said "responsibility" rather than anything else
<pitti> mdz: if he is not willing to maintain the package, it is useless anyway
<mdz> I do not want a Debian developer to sponsor uploads of a bunch of Ubuntu packages without anyone taking responsibility for them in Debian
<pitti> IMHO we should avoid the situation that many people dump packages into universe and does not care about them any more
<pitti> so they need a maintainer anyway
<mdz> yes, an Ubuntu maintainer
<mdz> but that person is not necessarily a Debian maintainer, and that will only become more common as time goes on
<sivang> so basically, people maintaining universe would have to be DD first?
<Kamion> let's try to avoid the situation where there are two entirely separate packagings of libfoo sharing the same version number space.
<pitti> that can as well be the Debian maintainer, it's just another name for the same thing
<sabdfl> sivang: no
<mdz> sivang: absolutely not
<asw> mdz: my understanding would be that a person could be an ubuntu "master of the universe" and NOT a DD.  They could not push to debian then.  However, it would be the intention (in the longer run?) of most Ubuntu Master of the universe to become Debian maintainers. 
<Kamion> we can do that by monitoring Debian wnpp and pointing out our packaging to people who post intent-to-package notices
<sabdfl> Kamion: i'd like to think that if someone in debian wants libfoo, they will open a line of communication to people who have done that work
<pitti> asw: ++
<sabdfl> and figure it out reasonably
<mdz> asw: my feeling is that Debian maintainers and Ubuntu maintainers are two groups which have intersection
<mdz> a relationship with one does not imply a relationship with the other
<Kamion> sabdfl: it's not a reasonable expectation that somebody in Debian should have to look through the Ubuntu archive before making a change in Debian
<mdz> Ubuntu maintainers who are not Debian maintainer must not be second-class
<lamont> Kamion: for new packages
<pitti> but Ubuntu maintainers can have their debian packages sponsored by a MOTU, they don't need to be DD themselves
<Kamion> sabdfl: that's why I think active liaison is appropriate, monitoring the Debian new-packages list
<asw> mdz: but I'm confused because there seems to be another group "Master of the universe" kind of a junior Ubuntu maintainer with fewer priv.
<mako> i'm with Kamion on this
<mdz> asw: approximately, yes. but the same principle applies
<sabdfl> asw: in talking about the management of universe
<sabdfl> we want to have a core team that manages it - the masters
<sabdfl> but also a team of people who contribute to it
<sabdfl> they would be like "maintainers in universe"
<sabdfl> they can contribute uploads etc
<Kamion> sabdfl: it's in our own interests to do this, because otherwise eventually upgrades from Debian will get more and more difficult if there are radically different packagings of stuff in universe sharing the same version number space
<sabdfl> and the universe team gets to decide what goes in, and what does not
<pitti> sabdfl: shall they be able to upload  on their own?
<pitti> okay, that answers the question
<Kamion> pitti: masters of the universe definitely have to
<sabdfl> Kamion: we will always review the options and choose the better package
<pitti> Kamion: no, I mean the contributors (the maintainers of the u)
<asw> kamion: I think it will be easier if you train "maintainers in universe" then as they get good they will become DDs ... potential for gentler curve... 
<Kamion> pitti: I think it would depend, might be different levels
<sabdfl> the universe process is still uncertain
<sabdfl> but i think we should leave it as flexible and open as possible
<sabdfl> our default option should always be to look to see if there's a debian package for something
<Kamion> do we have a set of people who are obvious candidates to coalesce into a core team?
<sabdfl> but if we have someone who wants to do uploads to ubuntu with improvements, and the universe team likes it, then we will accept them
<sabdfl> Kamion: not yet
<asw> so the structure is: cc/tb for "main" are roughly equiv. to Master's of Universe for "universe/multiverse"
<sabdfl> asw: no
<sabdfl> the universe is still part of the community, and still must work according to the policies of the tb
<Kamion> cc/tb are for Ubuntu
<Kamion> as a whole
<sabdfl> but the universe team gets to figure out how best to implement that within the universe
<sabdfl> the primary focus of this, once again, is post-freeze
<pitti> sounds like a good compromise
<sabdfl> when we freeze hoary, and start working on main, we don't want universe to stagnate as much
<sabdfl> we want to get new point releases, perhaps new packaging tweaks
<sabdfl> and we want the "nudge to build" stuff taken care of by that team
* mdz gasps at the phrase "point releases"
<sabdfl> so universe is useful throughout the release process
<mdz> oh, you meant upstream point releases
<sabdfl> not of the distro :-)
* Kamion chuckles
<sabdfl> say, something 2.1.2 is in universe and there is a 2.1.3 release
<sabdfl> the universe team decides whether or not that makes it in
<Kamion> presumably we have to start accepting bug reports on universe, and assigning them to the masters or whoever's appropriate
<mdz> a good entry level skill set for universe gardening is being able to fetch source packages from Debian, build and test them on Ubuntu
<sabdfl> right
<Kamion> are we going to attempt to do that in bugzilla?
<mdz> we can fairly easily pick up candidates from the mailing list for that
<sabdfl> Kamion: i don't know
<mako> mdz: sure
<mdz> I've been answering folks who ask for new stuff in universe to do exactly that
<mdz> s/to do/by asking that they do/
<Kamion> mostly worried about the component drop-down setting daniels' dialup on fire :-)
<sabdfl> :-)
<mdz> daniels has DSL now, don't pay him any mind
* Kamion makes a note to upgrade his DSL to cope with the component list then
<sabdfl> i *think* we'll have good infrastructure by  the hoary release
<mdz> I think lamont is the most bandwidth-starved now
<sabdfl> that will be dialup-safe
<mdz> sabdfl: I'm pretty strongly against tracking universe bugs in bugzilla
<mdz> at least, in the same bugzilla where we track main bugs
<sabdfl> mdz: agreed
<sabdfl> either a second bugzilla, or something else
<mdz> works for me
* asw thinking slowly, so, it's: cc/tb > Ubuntu Main Maintainers >= Masters of Universe > Ubuntu Universe Maintainers... 
<sabdfl> ok
<mdz> asw: it's a hierarchy more so than an inequality
<sabdfl> asw: yes, that puts it nicely into focus
<asw> mdz: that's helpful re. skills required.  (fetching source, build test...) 
<sabdfl> MOTU should also be able to take a sane view on the benefits of an update vs the risks
<asw> I like the name "gardners of Universe" ... 
<sabdfl> and be able to review an update and assess whether or not it is likely to cause breakage elesewhere
<sabdfl> ok, don't want this to turn into a much longer meeting
<asw> MOTU = MASTER or MAINTAINER 
<sabdfl> i'll draft something that outlines this and send it to -devel and -user
<sabdfl> also, publish on the site
<mdz> need to discuss the doc team still
<Kamion> asw: master
<hornbeck> mdz: please :-)
<mdz> hornbeck, plovs: still here?
<elmo> I HAVE THE POWER
<elmo> sorry, carton-flashbacks
<mdz> BY THE POWER OF GREYSKULL
<T-Bone> lol
<sabdfl> ok
<asw> kamion: thanks. I definitely nominate the term GOTU (Gardner of the Universe) for the lesser role. 
<sabdfl> next up
<sabdfl> doc team?
<hornbeck> yes
<sabdfl> there's been some excellent work, thank you guys
<mdz> agreed, kudos
<sabdfl> sorry for the imposed wiki switch
<hornbeck> :-)
<sabdfl> should have happened before release
<Kamion> asw: doesn't have the cartoon history to the name though :-)
<sabdfl> nonetheless, we are testing a conversion script as we speak
<sabdfl> we should have it all converted tonight, europe time
<hornbeck> nice
<sabdfl> when we start, we will lock the old wiki
<mdz> we appreciate your patience during the transition; I truly believe it will be worthwhile in the long run
<sabdfl> and the new one won't be widely announced till we've cleaned up the pieces of the conversion
<hornbeck> sabdfl: we are all ready to get at it
<sabdfl> ok
<sabdfl> for the moment, pick the format that works best for you
<sabdfl> the zwiki maintainer has been fantastic
<sabdfl> and has implemented moin 
<sabdfl> i think completely
<hornbeck> yes he has been helpful in answering questions for us
<mdz> sabdfl: does he scan the WikiWishlist?
<sabdfl> ok
<sabdfl> yes
<mdz> great
<sabdfl> he's actually helping with the setup etc
<sabdfl> with stevea
<sabdfl> so that should all be done soon
<sabdfl> there are still some glitches relating to authentication (logging in)
<sabdfl> and also to tracking changes, but we will get them all sorted out
<hornbeck> good, that seems to be the biggest problem right now
<sabdfl> ALL members of the community can create pages anywhere in the site
<sabdfl> please use that very carefully
<sabdfl> i'd prefer to keep all brainstorming in the wiki
<sabdfl> then move content over to the main site
<hornbeck> sounds good
<sabdfl> since the main site uses ReST and StructuredText, it's beneficial to do the wiki the same way
<sabdfl> for the conversion later
<mdz> we should certainly convert the FAQs and How-Tos to the more structured plone documents
<mdz> and maintain those outside of the wiki
<hornbeck> mdz: that seems a problem right now with doc team
<sabdfl> hmm.. i wonder how hard a command line moin->ReST tool would be?
<mdz> hornbeck: in what way?
<hornbeck> mdz: I will address in a second
<mdz> ReST is crack
<mako> sabdfl: perhaps not trivial
<mako> mdz: i love ReST :)
<sabdfl> hornbeck: go ahead
<asw> mdz: is crack good or bad? 
<elmo> asw: drugs bad mmk
<hornbeck> I really wish more doc guys could have been here, first of all
* sparkes sparkes is here, just
<hornbeck> good to see you sparkes
<sabdfl> enrico_dinner: oh
<hornbeck> sabdfl: we seem to be in need of some guidence
<sabdfl> ok
<amu> moins
<hornbeck> everyone on the list seems to be infighting about which way to push forward
<sabdfl> ok, what options have been put out there?
<sparkes> I don't think infighting is the right word but we do have several options out there at the moment
<hornbeck> well alot seem to want to go straight wiki for almost everything, while others wish to move alot off wiki
<hornbeck> that is one
<sparkes> hornbeck, true
<hornbeck> another is whether or not to appoint a leadership role to push us in directions and to also talk between doc team and devs
<hornbeck> there seems to be one on one conversations between doc people and devs but it is not getting back to doc people
<hornbeck> I think someone is needed to rally the doc people in a direction
<sabdfl> ok
<hornbeck> I hope that is all right
<sparkes> there is also the issues of what licence is good for ubuntu and upstream
<hornbeck> yes
<asw> I think forcing people to check two places the "real" FAQ (more nicely formatted) and the Wiki FAQ (more current) is a recipe for problems if not disaster. If ReST lets us maintain the FAQ in the Wiki I think that would be very, very nice.  But I don't know if it's practical.   
<sabdfl> that's an easy one to solve
<sabdfl> the faq's should go straight into the faq section
<sabdfl> it's designed for it
<hornbeck> I really feel we need a leadership role in the doc team to over see what is happening and to stop arguements
<asw> sabdfl: agreed. 
<sabdfl> and i've no problem with people putting new faq's straight in
<mdz> I think they should be reviewed by the doc team
<mdz> using the facility provided by plone
<sabdfl> hornbeck: having an leader does not stop arguments
<asw> mdz: does PLONE do revision control the doc team can check changes? Possibly ban users if they've been putting in Bogus answers to faqs?
<sabdfl> asw: no
<hornbeck> but that person can step in and push for a certain direction or have a final say, or take to CC and such
<sabdfl> i've had some one on one conversations with different doc team members
<asw> bummer. revision control is that's what makes the moinmoin wiki stuff work.  
<sabdfl> enrico, hornbeck, sivang
<sabdfl> asw: there is a zope-based revision management
<sabdfl> but i' not sure how usable it is
<mdz> asw: plone provides a framework where people can write new entries and submit them for review
<mdz> asw: and then they can be published when they have been reviewed
<asw> sabdfl: yeah I haven't followed zope too closefly I know too many OpenACS/ACS guys... 
<mako> but that's workflow management, not revision control
<mdz> but it is not as straightforward to manage changes to existing documents
<sabdfl> once published, i think they can be edited and immediately published
<sabdfl> and we don't have revision control that's as effective from that point onwards
<mdz> right
<sabdfl> we could create a group of trusted users who can edit the site
<sabdfl> and let everyone else work in the wiki
<mdz> but zwiki has a basic revision control facility like moin's
<hornbeck> sabdfl: if not a leadership role a core type team of doc people who make choices
<asw> sabdfl: so I just don't get it.  Why would you use a wiki that doesn't give you revision control (like wikipedia or moinmoin)
<mdz> asw: the wiki does give you revision control
<sabdfl> i think it's worth trying to open up the site to the whole community to see what happens
<mdz> but the other parts of the site do not
<sabdfl> mdz: actually they do
<sabdfl> in the zope layer it stores every version of every object
<sabdfl> you can pack the db, and lose those
<mdz> ok, not visiible in the ui presented to me
<sabdfl> and i think we will be doing that
<sabdfl> i'm just not sure that plone exports the revisions as something useable
<mako> sabdfl: AFAIK it does not
<asw> mdz, sabdfl: so it's a matter of improving plone?  (that's do able I suppose...) 
<sabdfl> asw: not the optimal strategy
<mdz> asw: it would also be workable to continue to use the wiki as a staging area
<sabdfl> plone is big and hairy and built on zope2, which is bigger and hairier
<mdz> with the entire doc team behind it, things could be edited and moved into the FAQ much more quickly
<sabdfl> zope3 is now out, which is not backwards compatible
<sabdfl> the huge advantae of the new wiki is that the search will find data in the wiki
<sabdfl> as well as in the faq
<sabdfl> hornbeck: let's talk a bit further about leadership
<sabdfl> who have been the main contributors so far?
<hornbeck> sabdfl: in wiki or overall?
<sabdfl> overall
<hornbeck> sabdfl: the most vocal are myself, sivang, plovs, and now sparkes
<sabdfl> ok, what role has enrico played?
<hornbeck> BenEdwards is doing good stuff 
<sparkes> sabdfl, Also Ben 
<hornbeck> sabdfl: enrico, has poped in once in awhile
<mako> i've seen a bunch of enrico posts to the mailing list
<mako> with a lot of good stuff i thought.. although they didn't get a lot of reponse
<hornbeck> enrico, has posted four times on new list, with all very good ideas
<hornbeck> he does not seem to be very involved with everything though
<mako> hornbeck: and a bunch of times to -devel
<hornbeck> mako: true
<sabdfl> ok
<sabdfl> i've discussed with enrico having a "secretary"
<sabdfl> for the doc team
<sabdfl> someone to do 2-3 hours of work every day
<sabdfl> keeping the team focused and momentum going
<mako> like wiki gardening, etc?
<sabdfl> cleaning up the wiki etc
<hornbeck> that is what I am wanting to be in place
<sabdfl> hornbeck: is that what you are wanting to do?
<hornbeck> sabdfl: I would like to yes
<sabdfl> you have certainly been very visible in your contribution
<sabdfl> what needs to be done on a regular basis?
<hornbeck> for starters we need to round up the docs that we want to make solid for Hoary
<hornbeck> we also need to keep track of wiki
<hornbeck> need to start setting up solid areas for people to work in, and getting certain doc writers doing certain docs
* enrico_dinner lands here
<hornbeck> welcome back enrico
<enrico> catching up
<sabdfl> hi enrico, do you have scrollback?
<hornbeck> we are all kinda out there right now
<sabdfl> ok
<hornbeck> need someone to keep people on those task and do it in a way that is encouraging to them and to keep them happy
<enrico> sabdfl: I do, I caught up
<hornbeck> and to make sure are docs are able to go back upstream
<sabdfl> i definitely can see a role for a wiki gardener
<sabdfl> i can also see a role for a "core team" that is responsible for decisions on documentation
<sabdfl> how can we best organise this?
<enrico> I haven't been much active because I didn't know how much time I could commit from now on
<hornbeck> I think a solid doc team is as important as a solid dev team, because people will always look toward the docs and without solid easy to read docs they are lost
<sabdfl> so far i've only heard from hornbeck
<enrico> I don't like to take responsibility for things without knowing if I can commit to them
<enrico> sabdfl: heard about what?
<sabdfl> in this forum
<enrico> sivan was here, but it got too late and he needed to head home
<hornbeck> sabdfl: I think to organize this, we should at least set up a core team that can make decissions
<sabdfl> ok
<sabdfl> here are the big questions
<hornbeck> sabdfl: we also could use someone who is always going to be reliable
<sabdfl>  - how should doc budget be spent
<hornbeck> doc budget?
<sabdfl>  - how should appointments to that core team be made
<sabdfl>  - do we need to appoint a specific team leader
<hornbeck> I think yourself and main core team should appoint the doc core team
<sabdfl>  - do we in addition need a secretary, or should they be the same role
<enrico> There have been mails in the list that were cautious about having a team leader
<hornbeck> we have made ourselves known and they mostly know us by now
<sparkes> enrico, I think people wanted to adapt a wait and see attitude while the team was small
<sabdfl> that makes sense
<sabdfl> at the same time, this is largely volunteer effort
<enrico> I once wrote that at the beginning, the Ubuntu Code of Conduct can be a good enough leader
<hornbeck> sparkes: we are growing real fast on the list and to many random ideas are being thrown without peoples saying, lets do this
<enrico> Ben today posted something ismilar
<sabdfl> so i don't think a leader is going to be able to direct effort so much as help to coordinate
<mako> sabdfl: yes
<hornbeck> maybe it sould be said coordinater instead of leader
<hornbeck> seems the term leader is throughing people off
<enrico> hornbeck: we can see if just having a secretary that picks up and cleans the ideas thrown on the ground is enough for people to cherry pick them
<sparkes> hornbeck, ;-)
<asw> I'm listening.  Since I'm writing a book length project, and am (newly) maintaining some public faqs / communities ; I'm not sure what I have to contribute, yet. 
<enrico> Although someone that tells when something is ready for release, for example, may be needed
<sparkes> enrico, that's probally a better idea for the short/medium term
<hornbeck> a secretary would be good
<hornbeck> someone who can step in and make decissions
<sabdfl> docs are generally best owned by one person
<hornbeck> that is what I would like to see
* plovs just walked in
<sabdfl> i mean "a document" not "all the docs"
<sabdfl> so  maybe we need to think of ledership of specific pieces of it
<hornbeck> sabdfl: the concensus is no on that point from the doc team
<sabdfl> for example, one person who is master of the faq's
<sabdfl> and one person who takes a lead on the installer guide
<sabdfl> etc
<sparkes> sabdfl, this was brought up on the docs list before to a mixed responce
<hornbeck> sabdfl: people hated that idea on the doc list
* sparkes believed docs should have maintainers
<sabdfl> ok
<sparkes> ;-) just to disagree with hornbeck again and make it look like we never aggree in public ;-)
<enrico> It also depends on how the work is made
<sabdfl> hornbeck: consensus?
<asw> I think that doc maintainers and over-all project leaders can be complementary'
<enrico> If things are "let's throw in", then nothing is needed
<enrico> Then, we should see if it leads to enough quality
<hornbeck> sabdfl: agreement
<enrico> well, IMO a good piece of documentation needs a bit of planning, like identify a target, describing it throughly, stating a goal
<sabdfl> i don't think that a doc maintainer means "this is my island get off it"
<sabdfl> i just think that a body of work like that needs a certain amount of consistent care
<enrico> And before release, there's a need for some quality assessment, and someone that says "ehy, this is good!  Let's check the commas and release it"
<sabdfl> and that while everyone whould be free to contribute
<sabdfl> it's still good to be able to say "xyz is our faq-master"
<sparkes> sabdfl, agreed
<enrico> But we can apply the "YouAintNeedingItYet" pattern and defer until such problems happen
<sabdfl> ok, let's start with this:
<enrico> (one point in which to introduce quality control is when one says what goes into Hoary, and that has a release deadline as well)
<sabdfl> the initial doc team is hornbeck, sparkes, plovs, enrico, ben, asw
<sabdfl> Henri1: would you  be interested in keeping an eye on docs from aa11y point of view?
<Henri1> Sure
<mako> did sivang have a hand in it?
<enrico> sabdfl: sivan?
<sabdfl> sivang too, didn't mean to leave anyone off who's contributed
<enrico> "aa11y" ?
<sabdfl> i will ask enrico to act as a secretary for the next few months while the team settles down
* enrico puts on the wiki gardener hat
<sabdfl> i'd like you each to find an area that you particularly care about and make that your showcase
* sparkes hands over the wiki gardner gloves
<Henri1> I guess I can just try to feed them aa11y stuff; or do you mean to look at all the docs from an accessibility point of view?
<sabdfl> i'd like this team to come back to the next cc meeting with a list of doc priorities that we should publish for new people who come along and want to help with docs
<enrico> sparkes: you're welcome to continue gardening
<sabdfl> Henri1: contribute as you see fit, low hanging fruit first
<enrico> ah!  Accessibility!
<sparkes> enrico, no these are bespoke secretary gloves I had hand made for the chief gardner ;-)
<Henri1> OK
<sabdfl> gardening is much more fun in teams
<enrico> sparkes: Wow!
<asw> hornbeck has suggested a "Learning Ubuntu" O'Reilly style book. If it's an updated version of: http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/debian/chapter/book/  With an equally liberal license I would be an eager participant. It might also be nice if we take care to mark the differences with Debian so that a debian user coiuld use the book too.  but that might be awkward.  
<mako> :)
<plovs> sabdfl, can somebody from upstream make a list of what they would like to see? Or it's just us?
<sabdfl> hornbeck: great idea
<sparkes> I would have prefered to use the debian user guide (progeny) but the concenus seems to be against taht one
<asw> horbeck: did I get your suggestion right? (you suggested Learning Redhat Linux as example I think.)
<sabdfl> you guys need to discuss it amongst yourselves and come up with the list
<sabdfl> i can add some layering of priorities
<sabdfl> but don't want to issue the list
<hornbeck> asw: yes
<hornbeck> sabdfl: thanks
<sabdfl> i'm just very grateful for your contribution, and my role here is to try to help you feel like your contribution is most effective
* mako nods
<asw> sparkes: if it's under a liberal license then we should build on it. (re debian user guide) I don't see why it would harm us to build and improve on what exists! 
<sabdfl> i'm happy to use the most liberal licence o'reilly will go with, which makes the content available for debian, but don't want you to do extra work on that account
<sparkes> asw, it's gpl
* enrico loves GPL documentation
<hornbeck> sparkes: we would have to rework that whole doc
<plovs> under what license is the wiki?
<hornbeck> sparkes: it would be easier to make that a different project
<enrico> plovs: good question: it should be made explicit
<sparkes> ok, hornbeck 
<asw> sabdfl. at least one of my acquaintances published with oreilly. I can talk with them but I don't want to step on anyones toes.  This is hornbeck's idea. 
<sparkes> plovs, this is something we need to sort out to stop probs later
<hornbeck> asw: find out as much as you can about what we need to do
* sparkes has an orielly published freind too
<hornbeck> I am willing to get as much help as I can
* enrico would also like to have a 'documentation' metapackage in the BTS
* hornbeck will have final edit though :-p
<plovs> do we have an ata for the new wiki? 
<enrico> Now that I have the secretary gloves, I can take care of it
<hornbeck> enrico: I agree
<hornbeck> enrico: can you get me some coffee ? :-)
<sparkes> lol
* enrico hands hornbeck some dark italian coffee
<hornbeck> nice
<hornbeck> you will be good at this job enrico
* enrico hugs hornbeck 
<sabdfl> easy guys
<hornbeck> nice, I like a secretary who's "hands on"
* asw oh boy... 
<sabdfl> here we go
<hornbeck> hehe
<enrico> Ok, two things I'm taking care of: wiki license and documentation metapackage
<sparkes> hornbeck, you don't want another human theme on our hands
<sabdfl> alright, that's me done here. let's review in a few months
<enrico> ...and hornback, of course ;)
<enrico> ehm, hornbeck, sorry
<sabdfl> worse and worse
<sabdfl> what have i done
<sabdfl> anyhow, workrave is screaming at me now
<hornbeck> created a monster
<plovs> nerds and secretaries don't mix
<sparkes> plovs, they do here ;-)
<mako> ok, i want to know if its possible to split the internal documentaiton issues and the stuff that the cc need sto do
<sabdfl> go to it and enjoy
<sabdfl> and thanks again
<mako> :)
<sabdfl> a big measure of your success will be the extent to which you can bring more guys into the team
* mako nods
<sabdfl> cheers guys
<enrico> sabdfl: bye!
<hornbeck> thanks
<sparkes> thanks all
<asw> later
<hornbeck> doc guys I will do a write up for the mailing list and send in alittle while
<enrico> hornbeck: mako's making a summary
<hornbeck> enrico: thats cool than
<sparkes> afk bbl
<enrico> I'll cut from mako's summary and post in the list
<hornbeck> enrico: sounds good
<hornbeck> I am back off to work, I snuck out to be here
<hornbeck> :-)
* enrico skuck out of dinner
<plovs> hornbeck, thanks
<hornbeck> plovs: no problem
<plovs> btw just got a mail that we will have a lot of cleaning up to do after the wiki 'upgrade'
<hornbeck> yes we will
<plovs> the guy resposible is stevea  and he lives in #zwiki
<Henri1> I guess that's the end of the meeting. We still didn't officially discuss setting up an Accessibility team.
<asw> Henril: as in section 508?
<Kamion> Henri1: hm, that was confusingly put on the agenda for the previous meeting?
<Henri1> It was skipped then as well, due to the release
<olafura> I watched a talk on the net about NX at the KDE conferece. They talked about it's itegration into KDE development. This brings an interesting option for Ubuntu. Because you support a release for 18 months and your developement model is supposed to be distribued.
<Kamion> Henri1: please make sure it's actually on the agenda for next meeting so that we remember it
<Kamion> sabdfl's gone so I don't think we can do it now
<Henri1> Right, OK. I've got to get with the procedures :)  It was on the agenda a few days ago, before it got restructured
<Henri1> Anyway, no rush
<olafura> Hoary has a possible goal to have an NX support. But would it also be smart to have a machine to test things for those less adventures.
<enrico> Who was the bugzilla guy again?
* enrico wants to request the "documentation" metapackage
<Henri1> I guess it needs CC approval to actually become a team, but there seems consensus that we want one.
<Kamion> Henri1: ah, whoops
<Kamion> Henri1: it doesn't need CC approval to start getting the people together and work out what you want to do
<Henri1> Heh, no worries :)
<Kamion> Henri1: if anything, it's better to have that in place early
<Kamion> enrico: file a bug on Websites/Bugzilla
<Henri1> Righ, and were doing that, so no problem#
<enrico> Kamion: thanks
<Kamion> Henri1: ok, good; if we're really blocking you, a special meeting may be possible, but I hope we're not
<Henri1> No, it was actually Luke who wondered why we weren't listed on the main Ubuntu page as a team
<Henri1> The reason is of course that it needs CC approval first, but again, no rush
* topic unset by mdz on #ubuntu-meeting
<KragenSitaker> is there a way to find out when these meetings are scheduled more than a day in advance?
<Kamion> CC/TB meetings are alternate Tuesdays, but subscribe to the agenda wiki page
<KragenSitaker> thank you!
#ubuntu-meeting 2004-11-07
<Gmail> soooo what was the out come last night tell me a few
<Gmail> ?
<Gmail> soooo what was the out come last night tell me a few
<Gmail> ?
<Gmail> ?
<Gmail> ?
<sparkes> Gmail, read the list mako posted links
<Gmail> sparkes: where
<sparkes> Gmail, both mailing lists
<Gmail> sparkes: want to give me the links?
<sparkes> Gmail, you want to pay me a secretaries rate ;-)
<sparkes> http://people.ubuntulinux.org/~mako/cc-summary-20041026.html
<bob2> Gmail: please try to be more succint
<Gmail> bob2: sorry
<bob2> just in general
<Gmail> well i am off to the doc
<Gmail> i got a few infected toues
<Gmail> it looks very serous but i dont seem to care
<Gmail> any meeting tonight?
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Gmail] : No meeting today
<Gmail> someone might want to fix that if there is
<bob2> why not just leave it?
<Gmail> bob2: because if its black people like me will ask is there a meeting tonight
<bob2> no one but you has asked
<Gmail> bob2: excaly and no one answered me so i answered my self
<sparkes> Gmail, have you ever considered a life in show business?
<Gmail> crap i am not black
<sparkes> because you are unique ;-)
<Gmail> i know
<Gmail> <Gmail> bob2: because if people like me will ask is there a meeting tonight
<Gmail> that how it should be
<bob2> ?
<Gmail> d/m
#ubuntu-meeting 2005-11-07
<highvolt1ge> pips1: sorry, lost my connection there for a moment
<highvolt1ge> pips1: you still here?
<pips1> yes
<highvoltage> Edubuntu meeting starting.
<pips1> good stuff
<highvoltage> Topic: Website plan forward.
<mhz> yes!
<highvoltage> No decisions will be made, we will merely discuss and get ideas together.
<highvoltage> For the record, please state your name.
* highvoltage is Jonathan Carter
<pips1> pips1 is Philipp Schroeder
* mhz is Mauricio Hernandez Z.
<mhz> present
<highvoltage> ok, I think it's just the three of us.
<mhz> so far
<highvoltage> mhz: to answer your question, currently it's practically all moin.
<mhz> indeed
<highvoltage> but we want a CMS for galleries and all the nice stuff.
<pips1> highvoltage, did Quim ever get in touch with you?
<highvoltage> pips1: nope.
<mhz> highvoltage: galeries? nice stuff?
<highvoltage> yes, pips1, can you expand on all the reasons we want a cms?
<mhz> afaik, Moin has a plugin that works cool as gallery
<highvoltage> pips1 and i liked drupal, although it's based on php and because of security reasons, many aren't very happy with it.
<pips1> mhz, I started some brainstorming in the wiki: http://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuWebsitePlan
<pips1> mhz, also have a look at this in particular: http://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuCommunityIntegration
<highvoltage> mhz: i also suggest you join https://launchpad.net/people/edubuntu-website
<mhz> wow, lot of info :)
<highvoltage> Everyone else who may be reading may also join the edubuntu website team, if they are interested in joining.
<mhz> before I start reading can I say something?
<highvoltage> So, drupal isn't our best option. But there's also plone, which I like, and which many people find good.
<pips1> mhz, on the latter page, there is a section "Wiki: Pros and Cons"
<highvoltage> It's also technically sound, so we'll have little resistence to it.
<highvoltage> pips1: you said you also liked plone?
<pips1> highvoltage, to be honest, not that much
<pips1> plone definitely has its merits
<highvoltage> and if it was plone vs moin?
<pips1> well
<highvoltage> plone also has the benefit in that ubuntu.com runs on it.
<highvoltage> hi jerome
<jsgotangco> (didn't know there was a meeting) =)
<pips1> hi
<jsgotangco> hi =)
<highvoltage> we're discussing the website, and the possibility of using a CMS instead of moin.
<pips1> well, as i outlined on http://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuCommunityIntegration, there are pros and cons...
<highvoltage> any thoughts?
<mhz> yes
<jsgotangco> highvoltage: a CMS would have better ACLs imo
<highvoltage> yes, that is one nice benefit.
<highvoltage> pips1: so drupal would be your ideal choice?
<pips1> yes, I guess there needs to be some control over "official" content
<mhz> highvoltage: I think that before we propose to change the 'medium' (wiki, cms, whatever), we should only state what we think it is needed to accomplish, and analiyze how we can do it by using current infrastructure
<highvoltage> mhz: agreed.
<pips1> highvoltage, as I said on that wiki page, I don't have hands on Drupal experience, but it does seem to have very nice features and fill our "gap" nicely
<pips1> mhz: agreed
<mhz> pips1: i'm still reading the urls I've been pointed to, I can't find the 'gap'
<highvoltage> pips1: plone has all the same features as drupal, or am I missing something?
<mhz> with current Moin
<jsgotangco> i'd prefer plone
<pips1> highvoltage, AFAIK, plone doesn't have the same "taxonomy" feature/structure
<highvoltage> pips1: what's "taxonomy"?
<pips1> taxonomy is categorising content, so it can be accessed better (keyword search, but also automatic menu)
<pips1> it allows you to create dynamic navigation menus
<pips1> plone has that, but in a more "traditional" way, I think
<highvoltage> ok, i understand what you're saying, I might have to look into that more closely.
<highvoltage> do we want to use content that way though? wouldn't we have big overlap with the wiki?
<pips1> well, integration is a good thing I think, so you would ideally want the cms to play together nicely with the wiki
<highvoltage> true.
<pips1> we definitely want to avoid duplicationg content
<highvoltage> yes, well the way i thought about it, we should keep as much of the user-editable data on the wiki as possible, and as much of the "admin-editable" stuff on the website.
<highvoltage> that's why i think the taxonomy won't be a big issue with plone anyway.
<pips1> i have looked at the ubuntu website to get a quick overview of what information we need for edubuntu
<pips1> the good news is: we can probably just re-use the most content from ubuntu.com
<highvoltage> yep.
<pips1> and so far I have only identified about a dozen "official" pages that need to be re-written for edubuntu
<highvoltage> yes, i think it's important to keep a website such as edubuntu to as few pages as possible, too many pages are often confusing.
<highvoltage> and we don't want to intimidate our users with too much information at once.
<pips1> I am mostly concerned that we really make it userfriendly/ newbie friendly
<pips1> yes!
<highvoltage> :)
<highvoltage> pips1: have you looked at http://www.creativecommons.org yet?
<pips1> however, there is lots of information that people will want to know about if they get more deeply involved
<highvoltage> i love the way they simplify things, the most important functions are two huge pictures on the main page. that's very nice, imo.
<pips1> and we should make finding all that other useful "advanced" info easy...
<highvoltage> yes, 100% agreed.
<pips1> yes, creativecommons.org is good, what I like about it is that the content is layed out for the users perspective
<highvoltage> yes, I'd like a similar idea for us.
<pips1> and it is geared towards "user tasks"
<mhz> pips1: highvoltage: I have read 3 urls, and AFAIK, so far, there are only 2 features I ignore if Moin has: forum and 'obvious' attachement and category.
<highvoltage> so you can switch views, one page will be for users, with a users view, one for developers, with a developers view, etc.
<pips1> i.e. the user wants to achieve someting and the labelling on the website reflects that task
<mhz> pips1: highvoltage: the rest of the features mentioned, I think Moin can cover them
<mhz> it is just a matter of how we set moin to work
<pips1> mhz: shoot!
<highvoltage> mhz: how intuitive is it? i've found that most users have trouble getting to terms with moin.
<mhz> yes, Moin current version is not as user friendly as new Moin version (almost done)
<mhz> new version has:
<highvoltage> ah, nice. i think we should look into that then.
<mhz> a full WYIWYG editor
<mhz> also, any moin version can render herarquical  menus on left or right side, it all depends on CSS
<highvoltage> ok, to be honest, i'm not a big fan of how moin currently works, but if it's going to change drastically, i think we should take a look at it.
<mhz> news can be spotted "automatically" if we want them to be rendered on a front page (ie)
<pips1> mhz: well, having "buttons" for text formatting is nice, but I still think that wikis are not very newbie friendly, unfortunately
<highvoltage> what i do like about plone and drupal is, if we used that then we'd need very little other web plugins such as galleries, news functionality, etc.
<jsgotangco> mhz: we need a working solution now, not a nice to have in the future :P
<mhz> just a basic example: www.tecnocimiento.cl (1st page calls 4 pages)
<highvoltage> looking...
<highvoltage> mhz: do you have galleries in there?
<mhz> for a more advanced example: http://www.druidwiki.org/
<mhz> highvoltage: nop, but I can fetch urls that do
<highvoltage> mhz: is that the new moin?
<mhz> nop, that's the point. With old moin , you can still play a lot if we ant it to
<mhz> :)
<pips1> mhz: tecnocimiento: nice style :-)
<mhz> thx (under development)
<highvoltage> mhz: it still isn't very intuitive, but nicer at least. it looks like they've learned a bit from mediawiki.
<mhz> yes
<mhz> Moin gang quickly adpat to users need
<mhz> hence, I always endup proposing to contact them and aske them how we can use Moin to cover our needs
<mhz> if they say it is not possible, then of course we must change
<highvoltage> okay, i'm making notes for the list.
<jsgotangco> mhz: that's moin test? wow
<mhz> highvoltage: i'll show you new moin now..
<mhz> jsgotangco: which
<mhz> ?
<jsgotangco> oh wait
<jsgotangco> this is old moin
<jsgotangco> with some spiffy stuff going
<mhz> hehee, yes
<highvoltage> so far, we have discussed drupal, which is nice, but php based. plone is good, but not exactly as nice taxonomy as drupal. moin covers our feature wish list, but there are usability concerns.
<mhz> and I've seen Moin sites that you'll never guess is Moin working there
<jsgotangco> well i've seen mediawiki sites that don't look like mediawiki at all
<mhz> highvoltage: usability concerns, we should list them and ask moin developers to answer
<mhz> jsgotangco: lol
<mhz> u're right
<pips1> highvoltage, moin covers our feature wishlist?
<highvoltage> mhz says it can!
<mhz> i say that we can make it
<pips1> well, I guess we need to discuss 
<jsgotangco> where's the new moin sample?
<mhz> http://moinmoin.wikiwikiweb.de/MauricioHernandez
<mhz> edit that page, please
<highvoltage> this is a mediawiki site: http://tango-project.org/Tango_Desktop_Project - nice eh?
<mhz> and use the GUI 
<pips1> we do need some access control for "official" content, no?
<mhz> pips1: yes
<mhz> pips1: moin can give you that if admin lets us :)
<pips1> do we need an approval workflow or not?
<highvoltage> pips1: i don't think so. we have wiki for that.
<mhz> highvoltage: see? CSS work, mainly
<mhz> that tango project is CSS work
<pips1> ie someone drafts some official content and that needs to be proofread and approved before it goes live...?
<highvoltage> yes, i understand that. but things like adding screen shots / photos in a gallery... is that easy?
<pips1> highvoltage, do you know how henrik is currently working with wiki+plone?
<highvoltage> i just don't get the 'rich' feeling from moin that i get from plone and drupal.
<pips1> does he use an approval workflow?
<highvoltage> pips1: yes, let me see if i can track him down...
<highvoltage> i asked hno73 to join. not sure if he's at pc at the moment.
<highvoltage> hi henrik
<hno73> greetings :)
<mhz> highvoltage: http://moinmoin.wikiwikiweb.de/ThemeMarket#head-1db8505849ee845d904c6e047f4d91dc130eb8a0
<pips1> also, what are the ubuntu folks using for a) official news b) screenshots (image gallery)?
<mhz> highvoltage: http://moinmoin.wikiwikiweb.de/ThemeMarket#head-93f5d33cba6ed9053f38e766b530bac0241344d6
<highvoltage> hno73: do you remember the drupal discussion at the edubuntu summit?
<mhz> hi, hno73 
<hno73> highvoltage: right?
<highvoltage> ok, drupal is almost a no-no since it's based on php
<highvoltage> if we'd want to use it, we'd have to have very good reasons for it.
<highvoltage> plone is a good option imo,
<highvoltage> mhz says that moin is sufficient for our needs.
<hno73> not sure what you are discussing just now, but I' about 2cm away from having moin working quite well as a CMS
<hno73> in fact https://www.ubuntu.com/ is running moin now :)
<highvoltage> since you're working on both plone and moin, we'd like your input.
<pips1> hi hno73
<mhz> highvoltage: http://moinmoin.wikiwikiweb.de/ThemeMarket#head-7b3ef0dfc3a812f857ed59d1efd9b988792cd589
<hno73> pips1: hey :)
<mhz> highvoltage: http://moinmoin.wikiwikiweb.de/ThemeMarket#head-6ccf6ec1018b7cdb416e7f06e9d889909602e0b7
<hno73> Plone is completely broken
<highvoltage> plone on ubuntu, or plone in general?
<pips1> we are discussing about the best way forward for the edubuntu "official" website and the comunity "tool set", i.e. wiki, irc, etc
<hno73> I mean really the Ubuntu plone site fell over and refused to come back up
<highvoltage> geepers.
<pips1> hno73, I was wondering what the heck is going on...
<hno73> moin can do all you want and more, with a few tweaks
<pips1> I was trying to access it all day long :-(
<highvoltage> fridge and artwork, are those also moin?
<hno73> yepp. I'm in the middle of a rescue opperation just now
<hno73> fridge is custom stuff and art.u.c is based on art.gnome.org
<pips1> hno73, since you asked about input from us, I drafted some thoughts on the wiki
<pips1> http://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuWebsitePlan
<pips1> and in particular
<pips1> http://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuCommunityIntegration
<jsgotangco> hi hno73 
<hno73> hi jsgotangco
<jsgotangco> what happened to the plone engine?
<jsgotangco> even planet is borked
<hno73> The plone site broke into 27 separate pieces and refused reasembly
<pips1> huh?! wow
<hno73> planet unwisely uses the header directly from the plone site
<hno73> Yeah, so I'm trying to rescue it all now. I could use some help :)
<highvoltage> hno73: i don't have access or much skill (i think) with that, but something i can do?
<hno73> It could be an interesting exercise in 'how to build a website with moin'
<hno73> highvoltage: It's quite simple. I just need to get a bunch of pages wikifyed
<hno73> These pages http://gentoo.warthogs.hbd.com:8002/ubuntu/community
<hno73> or rather http://gentoo.warthogs.hbd.com:8002/ubuntu/ etc
<highvoltage> mhz, gsgotanco, pip1: ok, let's continue this meeting at another time and help out hno73, ok?
<hno73> Need to go into a wiki, like http://69.60.114.106/
<highvoltage> i think we've layed out most of the issues.
<hno73> and then we can put it up on the new moin-based main site
<pips1> highvoltage, agreed, we should leave the channel anyway because time is up, no?
<highvoltage> yep
<jsgotangco> sure let's move to edubuntu
<hno73> thanks guys :)
<pips1> ok
<highvoltage> where can we take this further -doc or edubuntu?
<pips1> highvoltage, sorry?
<jsgotangco> sure lets do it in -doc
<highvoltage> ok
<pips1> ah, ubuntu-doc ?
<highvoltage> --- meeting ended ---
<highvoltage> yes, #ubuntu-doc
<cyphase> hey everyone
<ubuntu_demon> hi all
<geekchic9> hello
<ubuntu_demon> The community council meeting about the forums is in one hour right ?
<Mez> yes
<Mez> ish
<ubuntu_demon> Daylights savings time just got changed here. And I'm currently running on a slow box with icewm (gnome has a nice utc capable clock) That's why I check :)
<geekchic9> What is the community council going to discuss about the forums?
<ubuntu_demon> the backyard and the new ombudsmen are the main issues I believe
<ubuntu_demon> and the guidelines
<geekchic9> Ah.
<ubuntu_demon> geekchic9: are you active at the forums ?
<ubuntu_demon> just curious
<ubuntu_demon> well I'm back in an hour. ttyl :)
<geekchic9> Eh, I'm probably not as active as some, but I read them when I have the time, ubuntu_demon
#ubuntu-meeting 2005-11-08
<ubuntu_demon> hi
<ubuntu_demon> hi
<Brunellus> great googly moogly.
<FLeiXiuS> All the loving you'll ever need Kass :-)
<ubuntu_demon> hi all I'm ready :)
<Brunellus> who's gonna get this party started then?
<ubuntugeek> dont think everyone is here yet
<Brunellus> is there an agenda?
<ubuntugeek> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ForumsMeetingAgenda
<Brunellus> spasibo bolshoia
<Brunellus> or words to that effect.
<azajac> It erroniously says 03:00 UTC on the agenda.
<azajac> It should be 01:00 UTC...
<Brunellus> uh oh.
<ubuntu_demon> the UTC thing is confusing :)
<ubuntugeek> we'll give it one minute then we'll start
<ubuntugeek> this is logged right?
<ubuntugeek> :)
<ubuntu_demon> everything we say here is logged :-P
<ubuntugeek> great..
<azajac> We should wait for Sabdfl...  and the rest of the CC....
<ubuntugeek> so lets get this party going.. i got 45 mins to devote to this
* FLeiXiuS keeps logs also :-)
<ubuntu_demon> my girlfriend is already sleeping for 2 hours (it's 2 am here) :)
<FLeiXiuS> And my mom has already cooked dinner, so I;m stuffed :-)
<ubuntu_demon> :-p
<FLeiXiuS> 8PM here..
<Brunellus> let's roll, then, in deference of guys at >UTC.
<azajac> You cannot have a community council meeting withthout the community council...
<Brunellus> ok.  I guess that'd be axiomatic.
<ubuntugeek> go track them down azz.. cause my clock is a tickin..
<azajac> I cannot reach them any more than you can....
<Kamion> here
<azajac> Hi!
<Kamion> elmo's coming, sabdfl is in the room with me and is coming
<azajac> Phew!
<Kamion> dunno where mako is, he's not in Montreal
<ubuntu_demon> good :)
<azajac> I thought there was a clerical error...
<sabdfl> evening / morning / night all
<ubuntu_demon> hi
<ubuntugeek> howdy
<azajac> Hello
<FLeiXiuS> Good day! :-)
<DapperDrake> mako will arrive at 21:00 Montreal time
<sabdfl> i'd like us to wrap this up well before that
<Kamion> that seems a bit too late, given that ubuntugeek's got 45 minutes
<sabdfl> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ForumsMeetingAgenda
<Riddell> are there going to be membership requests tagged on?
<sabdfl> Riddell: not tonight
<Seveas> Riddell: if jjesse shows up perhaps
<Riddell> ok
<sabdfl> this is a special meeting with the forums leaders
<sabdfl> let's focus on that
<sabdfl> any additional items for the forums meeting agenda?
<ubuntugeek> nope lets get going
<sabdfl> ok, first up The backyard
<azajac> backyard = Great idea!
<ubuntugeek> calm down cowboy..
<ubuntu_demon> I think we should extend the backyard trial (I'm a mod)
<sabdfl> it seems like a good idea to have a general place for offtopic discussions
<ubuntugeek> if you guys cant access it let me know i'll fix up the permissions..
<sabdfl> understandably, just banning those raises the general stress level
<sabdfl> so having a place to nudge them is good
<sabdfl> the name "backyard" is a little prejudicial
<sabdfl> we have #ubuntu-offtopic, i think, and that works well
<azajac> I think it is in the sense of "take it outside!"
<ubuntugeek> true, but the question is a. do we allow them on the mailing list.. b. isnt the forums supposed to be about ubuntu and not other bullshit 90% of the readers dont want
<ubuntu_demon> sabdfl: we have a community chat which is mostly off topic
<ubuntugeek> i think the one thing the CC needs to see here is. They dont come to the forums.. Its different them IRC and Mailing lists. 
<ubuntu_demon> (I mean a community chat forum)
<sabdfl> ubuntugeek: you are creating a community of people who have other interests, its natural for them to meet online in the forums where there interests happen to overlap
<Brunellus> community chat still has some bearing on ubuntu and FOSS generally though
<sabdfl> that's a good thing
<sabdfl> not a bad thing
<sabdfl> a good community has that sort of diversity
<sabdfl> if the discussion is totally linear, you'll lose something
<ubuntugeek> have you looked at the BS posted in there?
<Kamion> this is one of the things that came up in the context of planet
<ubuntu_demon> Kamion: what do you mean ?
<azajac> The politics thread is impressively tame for forum standards...
<ubuntugeek> until the CC actually uses the forums I dont think you can judge whats good and bad for it.. IMO
<sabdfl> ubuntugeek: i don't say it's *good*
<Kamion> that it's healthy for a community to build social contacts as well as technical contacts
<sabdfl> but i do say it's not bad to have ... what kamion said
<ubuntu_demon> Kamion: true
<SteveMyers> agreed Kamion
<Kamion> hence why planet.ubuntu.com is not restricted to things directly about Ubuntu
<Kamion> (same for planet.debian.org, planet.gnome.org, etc.)
<zenwhen> I think the backyard could use a name change myself as well.
<sabdfl> ok, so can we agree that you guys will come up with a name that's not "talking down", and direct conversations there when appropriate
<sabdfl> also, i would say, the CoC will be even more important where religious or political things are being discussed
<sabdfl> so nudge people there with a reminder of the CoC
<sabdfl> and lets see how that works
<ubuntu_demon> I think we should trial the "backyard" some more before definetely agreeing on it
<zenwhen> I think we could use someone moderating that forum. 
<zenwhen> I think "unmoderated" opens things up too much.
<ubuntugeek> zenwhen: then we get people crying to the CC about it
<azajac> We need to set rules:
<azajac> what goes in there
<sabdfl> don't moderate, just remind people of the CoC and apply your normal rules
<ubuntugeek> we need to just say no religion and politics
<azajac> what criteria, that is
<zenwhen> Let them cry. We don't need to provide them a place to be extemists.
<ubuntugeek> zenwhen: when they cry I have to come to these meetings.. :)
<sabdfl> speaking of which, ubuntugeek, i think your team came up with a great first cut of forums-specific guidelines
<zenwhen> Oh.
<azajac> you cannot talk about FLOSS and avoid politics...
<ubuntu_demon> sabdfl: don't moderate ? even if there might be stuff offending to children ? 
<Brunellus> Why not post a Call for Discussion, usenet-style
<sabdfl> azajac: but you can talk about politics civilly
<azajac> yes.
<Brunellus> and come up with a charter, the same way that usenet does/used to.
<ubuntugeek> sabdfl: have you looked at the topics in there?
<azajac> and most people who use the forums do talk civily.
<sabdfl> ubuntu_demon: clearly, that's outside the guidelines. i was saying don't apply stricter rules there
<ubuntu_demon> sabdfl: okay then we agree :)
<zenwhen> sabdfl, I ahve been providing our admins with a little insight into the mind of a troublesome forum member.
<sabdfl> zenwhen: ok. is that on this agenda?
<zenwhen> Those troublesome forum members created the need for the backyard.
<zenwhen> So I would say so.
<azajac> Actually, a lot of moderators have posted stuff in the backyard...  
<sabdfl> Kamion, elmo: anything to add?
<zenwhen> I have avoided it at all costs.
<zenwhen> I have no business there.
<azajac> zenwhen:  That is your choice to make.
<bored2k> same here.
<zenwhen> I do go into see if anyone is being just terrible to others though.
<azajac> I am not particularly interested.  I tried it out.  Big deal.
<sabdfl> ok, i think we've covered this in enough detail
<azajac> It is an elegant alternative to editing and banning.
<sabdfl> let's move on
<ubuntugeek> huh
<ubuntugeek> i see no one boths to answer me
<sabdfl> ubuntugeek: i like the forum guidelines
<jjesse> sorry i'm late i had car issues :(
<jjesse> some jerk cut me off
<sabdfl> ubuntugeek: ?
<ubuntugeek> 20:18  <ubuntugeek> sabdfl: have you looked at the topics in there?
<sabdfl> ubuntugeek: no, i haven't
<Kamion> sorry, catching up because I was talking to jbailey about spec approvals
<ubuntugeek> then how can you say you agree with it .. go look
<ubuntugeek> we got a topic "FUCK" started by jon dodson just to see if he could
<sabdfl> ubuntugeek: i don't necessarily agree with everything that's said in #ubuntu-devel either
<ubuntugeek> well i dont agree with this at all
<azajac> To be fair, people are testing the limits of this new thing....
<azajac> It has been up for a few days only.
<sabdfl> ubuntugeek: just apply the standard guidelines, having an "offtopic" area isn't an excuse to ignore the CoC
<sabdfl> and jon dodson was clearly out of line on that front
<Kamion> I'd rather see it settle down into something a little more like sounder@lists
<ubuntu_demon> azajac: that's why IMO we should extend the trial before reaching a decision
<Kamion> although with 40000 users, that may be a little much to expect
<ubuntugeek> why cant we jut say no religion and politics and be done with it.. there isnt a need.. there hasnt been and wont be
<azajac> 50000
<ubuntugeek> 50,000 users
<Kamion> ok, details
<sabdfl> i'd like to propose something for the CC to +1 or -1 on this, otherwise we will be here all night
<ubuntugeek> yeah we will.. 
<fleixius_> ubuntugeek: I agree with you 100%
<Kamion> politics is a very broad brush; some people think the very existence of FLOSS is politics
<zenwhen> I think banning Politics and Religion threads would be the best idea as well. I really don't want to see us become the gentoo forums. 
<Kamion> or debating the direction of the movement
<fleixius_> Computers have been nothing more then a huge merge with politics, I urge the push away from debates on politics on the forums..
<ubuntugeek> i'm not saying ban debates.. but i dont see how religion fits into the forums
<sabdfl> proposal: rename "The Backyard" to something non-prejudicial, apply standard CoC and moderation approach, and let's see how it goes. The CC explicitly agrees that there *should* be a place for forums users who have a common interest in Ubuntu to discuss other things in which they are interested.
<ubuntugeek> we have people from all over the world coming there.. 
<sabdfl> elmo, Kamion?
<ubuntugeek> i dont think its right..
<ubuntugeek> i also dont think its right you are ruling without even looking at it
<ubuntu_demon> sabdfl : by let's see how it goes you mean extend the trial and come back here in some time ?
<mjg59> ubuntugeek: I think you've made your point quite clear
<Kamion> I've eyeballed the front page, which appears to contain all the threads in that area of the forums
<Kamion> sabdfl has too, AIUI
<sabdfl> yes
<ubuntu_demon> sabdfl: was that "yes" a yes to my question ?
<ubuntugeek> mjg59: yeah and its gonna get even more clear..
<sabdfl> it was a yes i've looked at the page
<Kamion> as azajac says, it seems likely that people are testing limits, and e.g. the anti-Microsoft topic isn't unreasonable
<zenwhen> "Guns are stupid and no one should be allowed to own them."
<zenwhen> -azz
<mjg59> ubuntugeek: I think that's unnecessary
<sabdfl> zenwhen: it's an opinion
<Kamion> "Linux is designed for programmers?" is basic but legitimate
<zenwhen> Sure looks like something our community needs.
<ubuntugeek> ok look..
<zenwhen> How does it help us reach our goals?
<zenwhen> How does it unite our community?
<sabdfl> ubuntugeek: i'm also not ruling, i'm making a proposal and asking the rest of the CC to say whether or not they agree
<zenwhen> The lines being tossed out in there serve to sever bonds and create animosity amongst our userbase.
<Kamion> lines like that are tossed out everywhere, frankly
<zenwhen> They dont have to be.
<zenwhen> We can have a rule against them.
<zenwhen> Seems simple enough to me.
<Kamion> so I think "apply standard CoC and moderation approach" gives the moderation team plenty of room for manoeuvre if people are truly out of line
<Kamion> (from sabdfl's proposal)
<FLeiXiuS> Kamion: We already have this.
<zenwhen> give them an inch....
<Kamion> and frankly, yes, I do think there should be a place for people with a common interest in Ubuntu to discuss other things they're interested in, that's not so exclusive (or so linear) as planet
<ubuntugeek> flex: agreed and thats why we are here today.. azz cried
<Kamion> zenwhen: if you assume everyone's going to be an arsehole, they may well become one just to spite you
<FLeiXiuS> Psh, pittiful...I should've known.
<zenwhen> Kamion, people will be arseholes. Some of them. All the time.
<Kamion> FLeiXiuS: please let me finish rather than heckling
<ubuntugeek> i think the bottom line kamion is clear.. you guys dont have a clue about the forums.. and people see it
<zenwhen> We have a lot of great users.
<bored2k> amen.
<azajac> The "backyard" is not shown by default to unregistred users.  That is why it is different from the community chat forum section.  It is a buffer zone.
<FLeiXiuS> Haleluluja!
<zenwhen> We also have some who are there to do little more than stir up flames.
<azajac> I think I have a clue.  So do a lot of other users.  That is why I am here!
<elmo> my vote is +1
<ubuntugeek> azajac: wasnt talk to you
<sabdfl> ubuntugeek: we don't use the forums heavily, and we are trying to help you build a team that can manage it
<azajac> ubuntugeek:  This is a pain in the ass for me too, you know!
<Kamion> so I see absolutely no reason why code-of-conduct shouldn't be sufficient to keep down people who are abusing a social contact area for flamage
<ubuntugeek> well i think your going in the wrong direction.. and frankly I dont think i want to be a part of it
<sabdfl> please don't jump down our throats just because we don't necessarily agree with you
<sabdfl> the point of this meeting is to discuss the issue, and there will be a diversity of opinions
<ubuntu_demon> It would be nice to have some more CC/cannonical looking at the forums. But I agree with sabdfl's proposal.
<FLeiXiuS> sabdfl: I don't understand how it is you can help without knowing the community in which we all take part in managing.
<elmo> I agree there should be a place for offtopic chat, I don't see a reason to special case religion/politics (people see FLOSS as both of those), and if the CoC and enforcing it doesn't work to keep people in line, that's an aorthogonal problem
<Kamion> "no social chat" is IMO a missing-the-point response to the problem of people being arseholes
<sabdfl> Kamion: +1
<ubuntugeek> we got social chat in our community chat section.. it just doesnt need to be religion or politics
<Kamion> you have moderation and guidelines, use them; but if you try to forbid social off-topic chatter then people will work around you
<sabdfl> the point of the CoC is to allow open discussion of almost anything inside this community, but getting people to respect one another, first, and have the discussion in an appropriate place, second
<zenwhen> No one said no social chat. We suggested not allowing th two topics that do nothing but create a rift in our userbase.
<Kamion> zenwhen: "religion/politics" is as elmo says very poorly defined
<sabdfl> ubuntugeek: those are both very real parts of life, i'm curious why you think they have no place in a set of forums?
<zenwhen> Discussion of politics and religion will do nothing to help Ubuntu and its users thrive.
<Brunellus> sabdfl:  for the same reason that you don't hang out on soc.politics in usenet
<ubuntugeek> zenwhen: agreed
<Kamion> shrug, I'm sitting here because of the politics that started the free software movement
<Brunellus> they tend to attract trolls and/or combative people
<FLeiXiuS> sabdfl: Because it'll create a raft of flame and ignorance among plenty of users.
<jbailey> zenwhen: I'm not sure that's true.  The use of Ubuntu in nonprofits and religious communities could be a very real and beneficial thing.
<Brunellus> they tend towards non-negotiable absolutes
<sabdfl> Brunellus: i have no problem with asking someone to leave an ubuntu "space" if they refuse to respect the CoC
<sabdfl> none whatsoever
<mjg59> zenwhen: I think that claiming politics will do nothing to help Ubuntu is plainly wrong, given how inherently political the free software movement is
<mjg59> In South America, free software is heavily tied into other political interests
<zenwhen> Kamion, its is very easly defined, and considering free software a "religion" is a little bit silly. Alos, by politics we don't mean not discussiong anything to do with politics of any kind. We mean abortion threads, gun threads, left wing/right wing threads....
<mjg59> If you can find a way to avoid banning that while still banning what you want to get rid of without the policy seeming arbitrary, then I will be very impressed
<Brunellus> sabdfl:  all very well and good for you, I guess, as you're someone with supervisory permissions
<Brunellus> but on th forums, I don't have a killfile like I do for usenet
<sabdfl> guys, can i suggest that a more important discussion is the governance structure of the forums, which i think we have yet to address
<ubuntugeek> well its clear on the backyard issue.. lets move on and see what else will get destroyed
<sabdfl> Brunellus: in which case, your best bet is to create space for discussions that will happen in any case, and not frequent that space
<Brunellus> sabdfl:  I think I can agree with you on that point.
<Kamion> I'm sure sabdfl will hate me for bringing up the naked-people issue, but one of the inputs into that was from people running Ubuntu in bible colleges
<Kamion> was that argument religious? sure
<sabdfl> Kamion: :-)
<Kamion> and some people found it pretty annoying - but it was appropriate and relevant
<zenwhen> So lets discuss the existance of god on a linux forum!
<Kamion> so I would much rather you guys were thinking of relevance and appropriateness rather than religion and politics
<zenwhen> that will get ubuntu to the top in no time :)
<azajac> It is on top.
<zenwhen> It is?
<mjg59> zenwhen: If you disagree with someone, please make an effort to actually counter their arguments
<zenwhen> Microsoft is gone now?
<zenwhen> awesome.
<FLeiXiuS> This reminds me, I was driving down 295 on my way home from DC and I happened to notice a linux fish on the back of the car in front of me.
<ubuntu_demon> let's stay ontopic :)
<FLeiXiuS> Coincidence...
<zenwhen> mjg59, I was atating that his agument didnt make sense.
* SteveMyers is away: Auto-away after 30 mins idle (gone at 2nd Nov, 20:44:52)
<zenwhen> He didnt explain why we should have general religion debates.
<Seveas> SteveMyers`afk, DON'T DO THAT in here please
<Kamion> zenwhen: that would fall under "irrelevant", not "religious"
<Kamion> surely
<mjg59> zenwhen: No you weren't.
<zenwhen> He smply mentioned a time religion became a part of another topic.
<Kamion> 01:43 < Kamion> so I would much rather you guys were thinking of relevance and appropriateness rather than religion and politics
<FLeiXiuS> ubuntu_demon: :-) It's a ramble about the religious perspective...
<zenwhen> mjg59, don't tell me what i am saying.
<zenwhen> :)
<mjg59> zenwhen: Politics and religion are both part of a great deal of appropriate and worthwhile discussions.
<zenwhen> And there are tons of places on the internet to do that.
<ubuntu_demon> I think everything is being said here. Let's just vote and move on to the next subject ?
<Kamion> sabdfl reminds me I didn't vote, but I had intended to go +1, with the various comments I've already made; I think relevancy should be a much stronger criterion than particular named topics which don't really make sense in general
<mjg59> zenwhen: And if it's appropriate to Ubuntu, it makes sense for it to take place on Ubuntu forums
<Kamion> ... make sense to forbid in general
<zenwhen> I agree.
<FLeiXiuS> I agree to ban these areas from the Community Chat
<ubuntu_demon> +1 on sabdfl proposal
<zenwhen> I never said Ubuntu related politcs threads shouldnt be allowed.
<sabdfl> ok, that's 3/4 on the proposal, so please can we try that for 6 months?
<mjg59> zenwhen: As has been pointed out, you shouldn't be concerned about politics and religion *in themselves*. You should be concerned about inappropriate conversations of *any* sort.
<Kamion> well, this is the problem with "religion and politics", by the time you've made it specific enough to actually work you end up with something that's entirely different
<ubuntu_demon> sabdfl: 6 months is a lot of time on the forums for a trial maybe 2 months or something ?
<azajac> 2 months is good.
<zenwhen> mjg59, Yes let us all wear blinders and not notice specific situations and try to deal with them.
<sabdfl> ubuntu_demon: ok, fair enough
<sabdfl> zenwhen: that's a little personal for this forum
<zenwhen> Oh
<zenwhen> Sorry.
<zenwhen> Shoudl I have phrased that differently?
<zenwhen> I think it was a valid point.
<Kamion> zenwhen: if you (plural, general) make blanket categorisations, you've got to expect people to take them literally, because human nature says they will when it suits them
<FLeiXiuS> Woops, My appologies.
<zenwhen> Oh well.
<Kamion> I understand that you're responding to things you see as problems; what I'm trying to suggest is that I think you're identifying the wrong pieces of problematic posts to moderate away
<sabdfl> i have another commitment in 10 mins, so i don't think i'll be able to participate in all of the discussion on forums governance
<sabdfl> let me just make some observations quickly
<sabdfl> i think the forums guidelines are great, at least a very good first start
<Kamion> I agree, with the exception of the bits in them about the backyard which we've already covered
<sabdfl> on the dispute resolution teams, i think they would be more likely to be successful if it was in fact a larger group of people
<sabdfl> any three of which could form a "DRT" to deal with a particular situation
<sabdfl> or something like that
<sabdfl> this community is growing hugely quickly
<ubuntu_demon> DRT????
<sabdfl> dispute resolution team
<sabdfl> and such a huge community needs a scalable framework of governance
<azajac> I am concerned about how these will be chosen, if they are not already chosen.
<sabdfl> the CC is definitely NOT scalable
<Kamion> (and of course the moderation guidelines talk about religion threads etc., and again I'd refer to what I've said)
<sabdfl> Kamion: +1
<ubuntu_demon> the "forum resolutuon team" should meet more often than once a month IMO
<sabdfl> ubuntu_demon: i think you need a large pool of trusted, experienced forums users that you delegate this authority to
<Kamion> trying to get everyone together once a month on IRC is tough
<sabdfl> large being 8-12 initially
<azajac> What about them "meeting" in the open on a forum thread?
<sabdfl> and allow any three of them to deal with a situation, at a time that suits them and the people raising it
<Kamion> it only works as well (or as badly ...) as it does in the CC because three of us are in the same home timezone
<sabdfl> that way you have a lot of flexibility
<sabdfl> azajac: +1, appointment of these folks should be transparent
<ubuntu_demon> sabdfl : okay I agree
<Kamion> azajac: IRC has a lot of benefits for high-bandwidth communication, but I think whatever works for the team in question
<sabdfl> i would also expect there to be a smaller team of most senior people, with a leader, that reports  regularly to the CC
<zenwhen> I would just like to make one more comment: If we are to allow topics which are sure to create a lot of work for our moderation team, soley based upon the discretion of the CC, where is the funding for all of this work coming from? UG pays the bills for the forums and now has to ask his mods to deal with flamewars.
<azajac> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AndrewZajac/comments  I was told that the ombusdmen were already in place.
<sabdfl> if you look at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/GrantingMembership you'll see that i would like to have forums participants granted membership BY forums leaders
<Kamion> zenwhen: Canonical already makes a fairly sizable contribution there, as I understand it
<azajac> zenwhen:  Moderators are not paid.
<zenwhen> I didnt ask to be.
<zenwhen> :)
<azajac> and a lot more users would volunteer, if asked...
<zenwhen> My point was that $900 is a small price to pay to delagate what 40,000 users should be able to do on forums you dont help moderate.
<Kamion> (GrantingMembership's up for discussion on Nov 8)
<ubuntu_demon> nice idea (GrantingMembership)
<elmo> zenwhen: canonical offered to contribute more, that hasn't been taken up...
<elmo> however, personally speaking, I don't think moderation is something that should be linked to money in any way, it just introduces a whole new raft  of issues into an already complex situation
<sabdfl> for GrantingMembership to be feasible, there has to be a trusted, transparent structure within the forums that can evaluate candidates and nominate them for membership
<sabdfl> elmo: +1, we would likely only cover costs of bandwidth, not pay for moderation
<ubuntu_demon> sabdfl: I can understand that :)
<azajac> Ryan, are any moderators paid?
<zenwhen> I would like to state once more that I would never ask for pay. My interest is in the community.
<sabdfl> ok, i'm afraid i'm out of time. from me, it would be +1 to the current guidelines with kamion's mods taking into account the earlier decision
<sabdfl> and -1 on the current DRT plan, because i don't think its transparent and scalable enough
<Kamion> our network access here is about to disappear apparently
<sabdfl> ...
<ubuntugeek> azajac: no
<azajac> Okay.  I didn't think so.
<sabdfl> so, i suspect we will have another round of this. can we make it in about two weeks?
<Kamion> (it's not convenient, but it's out of our hands)
<sabdfl> or at the next CC?
<ubuntu_demon> anyone: so how do we improve the DRT plan ?
<sabdfl> thank you all for coming
<ubuntugeek> DRT?
<sabdfl> ubuntu_demon: i've made some suggestions above
<azajac> Thanks!
<ubuntu_demon> sabdfl: ok
<ubuntu_demon> thnx everyone
<jjesse> dang it 
<azajac> ubuntugeek:  The ombudsmen, drt.
<azajac> jjesse, poor you!
<jjesse> everyone gone?
<ubuntu_demon> guess so. so I'm going to sleep. see you at the next meeting
<ubuntu_demon> bye all!
<Kamion> I'm still here, but may have to switch network
<jjesse> did my nomiation get passed up? sorry i was late i had car issues and couldn't get home any soonerf
<jjesse> or did the forums issue take too long?
<azajac> jjesse, not, it did not get passed, but sabdfl had to leave, it seems.
<azajac> yes.
<jjesse> grumble
<sabdfl> jjesse: i'm sorry
<jjesse> no worries i'll try for the next one
<sabdfl> wiki page?
<sabdfl> quickly
<jjesse> wiki.ubuntu.com/JonathanJesse
<jjesse> been working with docteam and Riddell on Kubuntu docs
<jjesse> Riddell and Seveas can vouch for me
<Kamion> +1 for Kubuntu doc work
<sabdfl> Riddell: ?
<sabdfl> Seveas: ?
<jjesse> inclduing the creation of the spec for KubuntuDocs for DapperDrake
<jjesse> wiki.ubuntu.com/KubuntuDocs
<Kamion> ... having followed up links and stuff
<sabdfl> i'll ask riddell in person tomorrow
<sabdfl> if he's happy, i'll +1 it
<jjesse> thank you sabdfl and Kamion
<sabdfl> elmo says he will do the same
<jjesse> i can try and get to the next meeting if that would help
<Kamion> looks like we're fine
<sabdfl> thanks for the contribution!
<sabdfl> cheers
<sabdfl> night all
<jjesse> thank you very much
<ubuntugeek> see ya thanks
<Kamion> I still need to process membership additions in launchpad from the last meeting; it's on my queue
<Kamion> I'll do jjesse at the same time if sabdfl/elmo are +1
<Riddell> I voush for jjesse totally
<jjesse> [21:10]  sabdfl: i'll ask riddell in person tomorrow
<jjesse> [21:10]  sabdfl: if he's happy, i'll +1 it
<Riddell> vouch
<jjesse> thank you Riddell
<Kamion> ok, I think we're forcibly done
<Kamion> thanks for coming everyone
<jjesse> have fun in montreal
<Kamion> sorry for the enforced shortness - I don't think we realised significantly in advance that network access would become awkward
* SteveMyers returns (Auto-away after 30 mins idle [1h 3m 21s] ) (total away time: 1h 3m 21s)
<mako> greetings
<Riddell> mako: meeting finished
<Riddell> mako: and internet here died
<mako> well, i got here as quickly as i could
<mako> Riddell: do you have logs?
<mako> i'd like to know how things went
<Riddell> mako: if you tell me how to get irssi to save a buffer to a log I do
<jdong> ooh, mako, long time no see :)
<mako> jdong: i'm around :)
<mako> how long was the meeting?
<Riddell> mako: http://muse.19inch.net/~jr/tmp/ubuntu-meeting-log.text
<jdong> Riddell: I may be a mere mortal, but 403 :)
<bob2> http://www.kubuntu.org/images/konqi-border.png appears to be 404
<mako> ah good
<mako> Riddell: i was still looking up how to do that
<mako> thanks
<mako> jdong: i see 403 too
* jdong 's self esteem still intact :)
<geekchic9> So, what was the verdict of the Backyard?
<geekchic9> Keep it or ditch it?
<geekchic9> Ok, no one's talking...
<Brunellus> probably because it's pretty late, UTC
<geekchic9> Really?
<geekchic9> Oh.
<Brunellus> the meeting was called for 0100 UTC
<geekchic9> What time is it, UTC?
<Brunellus> 0251?
<geekchic9> Ah.
<geekchic9> It's 20:52 here in Texas.
<Brunellus> yup.  it's 21:52 here in Virginia so
<geekchic9> So, did you see the meeting? What was the results?
* Brunellus scrolls up
<mjg59> geekchic9: Keep it for now
<geekchic9> Ok.
<mjg59> And move on with the development of a policy for dealing with unacceptable posts
* geekchic9 nods.
* Brunellus wishes for forums killfiles
<mjg59> So, the basic conclusion was to have another meeting to discuss a redrafted dispute resolution team document
<mjg59> Brunellus: This is traditionally one of the problems with forums
<mjg59> You have much less flexibility than with, say, usenet
<Brunellus> ...why I prefer usenet
<Brunellus> why not have alt.comp.os.linux.ubuntu
<Brunellus> or something?
<geekchic9> That would be cool.
<Brunellus> because I for one love usenet
<Brunellus> it's cheap, in terms of time--no moderation needed, post an FAQ and a Killfile FAQ
<Brunellus> and it's much more command-line friendly, for the guys who like that kind of thing
<geekchic9> It's still important to have quality members in the group. Those are hard to find.
<Brunellus> well yeah
<geekchic9> I belonged to a slackware usenet group and they were great folk.
<geekchic9> hi fadumpt
<Brunellus> really?  
<fadumpt> hi
<mjg59> Heh
<Brunellus> linux communities in general are not as good as ubuntu's has been
<mjg59> Forums are a lot more accessible for most users
<Brunellus> other communities may have more talented hackers
<Brunellus> but ubuntu has...erm...human beings.
<geekchic9> hehe
<Brunellus> *sigh*
<fadumpt> the linuxcult and it's IRC room have been a great resource for linux
<mjg59> The greater entry bar to usenet means you have quite a different set of people
<fadumpt> for a few years now
<Brunellus> see, usenet has never been a great barrier to me
<fadumpt> I've never really used usenet :-/
<Brunellus> but I guess that's because I like that sort of thing, and I'd been lurking on usenet since like...um... '92 or '93
<Brunellus> and really got into it in like '96, '97
<fadumpt> I do know that #ubuntu on freenode isn't so hot for help
<Brunellus> #ubuntu is turning pretty churlish
<Brunellus> it was good around the time of warty
<Brunellus> but I'm detecting a definite 'tude there
<fadumpt> last time i was in there with a question, I ended up helping 2 or 3 people and never even got an "i don't know"
<Brunellus> also they hate it when you refer people to ubuntuguide, or what have you
<Brunellus> it's like going to a Communist cell meeting
<Brunellus> ugh.
<fadumpt> that's one think i liked about #ubuntu, they'll have that BOT point you to a good HOWTO
<Brunellus> yeah.  but they've tended to be very "our way or the highway" when i've been in there...
<Brunellus> I dont' know
<Brunellus> the regulars there rub me the wrong way
<Brunellus> #ubuntuforums people, on the other hand, rule.
<fadumpt> I'll check them out
<jdong> imo, #ubuntu is too hectic and busy compared to a forums setting....
<fadumpt> that was the problem with #gentoo
<jdong> no offense to any #ubuntu regulars here -- I respect your work
<fadumpt> too busy and chaotic
<jdong> maybe some people excel in such areas, but I like to concentrate on a problem at a time, and I don't like cross-noise in the process
<Brunellus> it's a preference, totally
<fadumpt> well I can keep up with my problem mixed in with others
<fadumpt> but when they ignore you entirely and help others a lot
<fadumpt> it tends to be annoying
<Brunellus> #ubuntuforums is just a nice community hangout with heavy support elements mixed in
<jdong> fadumpt: agreed... and we (at least try) to make sure that never happens on the forums
<fadumpt> Forums are different though
<jdong> fadumpt: not to mention it's a lot easier to see on a forum when people are being ignored
<fadumpt> I can ask a question on a forum and over the few days it will get answwered
<fadumpt> yeah that's a good point, you can look for threads with 1 post and check those out to see if you can help them
<fadumpt> where if you miss a question in a chatroom then you come off as ignoring that person
<fadumpt> but i asked my question 3 times and helped others, so I felt ignored :)
<Brunellus> it's weird.  I didn't follow the meeting too closely
<Brunellus> but has anyone noticed a real disconnect between the forums folks and the wiki guys?
<jdong> Brunellus: there are ongoing conflicts between the doc team and the forums folks
<jdong> Brunellus: slander, miscommunication, banishment, you name it
<Brunellus> the doc guys don't come off so well
<Brunellus> a very "this is our club" air
<jdong> but that's a hairy thing I'm not in the mood to really discuss -:/
<jdong> I might say something I'll regret in the future
<jdong> Brunellus: but it does seem that way 
<_native_> jdong, we cant have that. doesnt help the community much.
<Brunellus> I don't have much contact with them, so 
<Brunellus> it's a big internet;  if I don't need to hear from them, I don't have to.
<jdong> Brunellus: likewise; other than burgundavia at the forums, I've come in little contact
<jdong> Brunellus: minus our mods coming back from the wiki complaining about doc team defacing their wikipages
<Brunellus> yeah.  maybe I'm retarded or something, but I hate using the wiki
<Brunellus> I'd contribute more if it were easier....
<jdong> nothing against wikis in general, but they do imply welcoming a community... not driving away offers of help
<Brunellus> but the whole wiki/launchpad/bugzilla thing just seems badly put-together
<jdong> I like the lp system, but just not the "wiki replaces forums" attitude
<Brunellus> as in, "forgotten password" links point to the wrong thing
<Brunellus> etc.
<mjg59> Brunellus: Uhm. Wiki guys?
<Brunellus> ok, bad nomenclature
<mjg59> The wiki wasn't mentioned in the meeting
<jdong> mjg59: OT discussion
<Brunellus> but there's a definite wiki/forum cleavage going on.
<fadumpt> what's cool about this room (so far) is no one is coming off as rude
<fadumpt> you see that in a lot of rooms
<mjg59> Brunellus: There was a distinct difference of opinion between some of the forum people and the community council in the meeting
<Brunellus> fadumpt:  it's all in the spirit of the distro
<fadumpt> nope
<fadumpt> #ubuntu they came off as rude
<fadumpt> it's the spirit of the room
<Brunellus> you have a point...
<jdong> fadumpt: the rudeness at one point made it into the forums too...
<jdong> we worked hard to correct that...
<Brunellus> there are some borderline threads/posts/users
<Brunellus> but on the whole
<Brunellus> it's a positive place
<Brunellus> still makes me wish for an alt.comp.os.linux.ubuntu
<poofyhair> the wiki is great for many things
<mjg59> The wiki is supposed to be an information repository - somewhere to go in order to search for an answer
<fadumpt> i used the ubuntu wiki a lot back when i was setting up my Debian server recently
<mjg59> The forums are somewhere to get an answer if it's not already documented
<poofyhair> and to chat, and to connect to other users, and to hammer out ideas
<poofyhair> the wiki does a lot more tahn just guides as well
<mjg59> Right. But that's as close as the two get.
<poofyhair> both are great tools
<mjg59> They have distinct roles that complement each other
<poofyhair> agreed
<poofyhair> those two and mailing lists make a nice trio
<mjg59> So any wiki replaces forums attitude is plainly wrong
<fadumpt> basically that's like saying you don't need KDE becuase Gnome is better so let's get rid of it in all distros
<fadumpt> and remove choice over personal preference
<poofyhair> but you are right about the guide thing
<mjg59> Well, it's not even that
<poofyhair> it it an intersection
<mjg59> It's We have bash, so we don't need gcc
<poofyhair> thats why I asked for a note on the forum to ask people to add to the wiki
<poofyhair> http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=104
<mjg59> The wiki and the forums do different things. There's no element of choice about it.
<mjg59> The situation with ubuntuguide is a little more awkward, since historically it's contained incorrect information
<mjg59> (And, on checking, still does)
<poofyhair> well......
<poofyhair> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=77704
<Brunellus> ok chaps.  I'm off.  keep on being great. 
<mjg59> poofyhair: I'd certainly love to, but sadly writing my thesis has higher priority right now...
<_native_> mjg59, whats your thesis subject?
<_native_> *or the subject of you thesis. :-P
<mjg59> RNA localisation in fruitflies
<jdong> mjg59: if you can capture them all (PLEASE DO) I got donations towards your thesis :)
<jdong> j/k
<_native_> very cool
<mjg59> There's as many species of Fruitflies in Hawaii as there are in the rest of the world put together, oddly
<mjg59> So things could be worse
<Riddell> mako: http://muse.19inch.net/~jr/tmp/ubuntu-meeting-log.text works now
<nybble> I has a question... Our LUG is going to hold a 'con' in early 2006. I want to do a presentation on Ubuntu. Whom do I talk to about that. I need to know what the 'group' would like said about Ubuntu
<Riddell> nybble: ask jdub or silbs about conference support, not on this channel though
<nybble> ok thanks.
<Riddell> nybble: or ask me about kubuntu support come to think of it
<nybble> Riddell: not in this channel though....
<Riddell> exactly :)
<nybble> Riddell: lol..  PM or whats a better channel... (please dont say #ubuntu)
<nybble> Riddell: see you in #kubuntu
<cyphase> Broadcast: Does anyone have Gobby installed?
<manicka> I have gobby
<cyphase> can you connect to me?
<rob^> does anyone know when/time the next CC meeting is?
<Seveas> rob^, tuesday 14:00 UTC I guess
<Seveas> which is midnight in australia iirc
<rob^> great :)
<Seveas> (but check that, i've messed up a lot already with DST ending)
<rob^> yep thats correct
<rob^> sweet
<Seveas> you're at east aussieland?
<rob^> yes
<Seveas> worldclock now tells me that 14:00 UTC is 01:00 sydney
<rob^> yes, they are on daylight savings time atm
<rob^> us in queensland are not
<Seveas> ah right
<Seveas> stupid aussie-ers, can't even agree on whether to use DST or not :p
<rob^> hehe
<rob^> yeah
<cyphase> Does anyone have Gobby installed?
#ubuntu-meeting 2005-11-10
<mdke> good evening
* robitaille is around...but half listening (middle of my work day)
<Burgundavia> ok
<jeffsch> hello docteam peoples
<mdke> hands up who is here
<mdke> hi there jeffsch 
<mdke> <-- matthew east
<robitaille> <-- Daniel Robitaille
* Burgundavia is Corey Burger
<Burgundavia> madpilot is likely at work or just getting home now
<mdke> cool, we should wait a few minutes i think
<Burgundavia> ok
<Burgundavia> might thought was that we discuss https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/docteam-projects first
<Burgundavia> s/might/I thought
<mdke> erm
<mdke> there is no spec on the linked wiki page
<mdke> is that a spec, or just an excuse to make another LP page?
<Burgundavia> not really
<Burgundavia> there is no spec because it should take a very short time, ie, one meeting
<mdke> ok well stick it on the agenda
<mdke> perhaps explain what it is that it is getting at
<Burgundavia> the idea was that we should decide as early in the cycle as possible so that we could base decisions on that
<Burgundavia> decide what we want to do, that is
<mdke> but isn't that what we already do?
<mdke> we agreed 6 months ago to do that
<Burgundavia> yes, I just codified it
<bhuvan> bhuvan -> Bhuvaneswaran
<Burgundavia> salut bhuvan 
<bhuvan> salute!
<judax> <- Troy Williams
<judax> is there a meeting, why so quiet?
<Burgundavia> are we expecting Jerome or Rob?
<mdke> yes, both
<Burgundavia> judax, we are waiting for Jerome and Rob
<judax> ok, sounds good
<Burgundavia> I will clean up the DocteamProjects page after the meeting, based on what we decide
<jeffsch> Burgundavia: when you do that, can you change the style guide to wip?
<jeffsch> it should go to version 1.5 for now, then 2.0 at time of dapper release
<mdke> ok we should probably start i guess
<Burgundavia> jeffsch, yep
<Burgundavia> sounds good
<jeffsch> thanks
<mdke> agenda is here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamMeetingAgenda
<mdke> 1. Repository layout
<Burgundavia> first item is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamRepositoryLayout
<mdke> the layout is pretty similar to what is already there
<mdke> with a few differences, i.e. the absence of teamstuff, debian folders etc
<mdke> any thoughts?
<judax> +1 on layout
<mdke> fine by me too
<judax> think the wrench was the stuff from Sean on Kubuntu, right?
<judax> think we can move on quickly from that
<mdke> guess so
<mdke> me too
<mdke> does anyone think we should change "kde" to "kubuntu" and "gnome" to "ubuntu" as per the structure on that wiki page?
<mdke> no big deal, but if we are gonna do it, we should do it soon
<bhuvan> imo, we should. it makes things more clear
<judax> matters not to me
<mdke> fine with me too
<jeffsch> we will have to revise the build scripts and whatnot, but i suppose we have to do that anyway
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> that will need redoing anyway
<mdke> the debian folder needs to go in "gnome" i guess
<mdke> kde/debian is already there
<Riddell> mdke: yes but ubuntu covers stuff that kubuntu uses too like serverGuide
<Burgundavia> I like the new layout, don't see any reasons not to adopt it
<Burgundavia> ok, move on to item 2?
<Burgundavia> 2nd item is ServerGuide spec
<Burgundavia> do we want to identify authors of specific things before we move onto specific docs?
<mdke> Riddell, if we have documents which apply to both we'll put them in a generic folder at the top of the tree
<mdke> right?
<mdke> Riddell, i'm right to say there should be a gnome/debian and a kde/debian, rather than a debian/ and a kde/debian, yeah?
<Burgundavia> are we planning any generic docs?
<mdke> the server guide would be generic i think
<Burgundavia> yes
<mdke> and there may be more, such as docs ported from the wiki
<Burgundavia> what about a top level server directory
<mdke> i think generic/ is the best way to go
<Riddell> mdke: no, w il sare debian packaging
* mdke blinks
<Riddell> no, we will share debian packaging
<Riddell> I talked about this with dholbach
<mdke> Riddell, so kde/debian needs to move?
<Riddell> yes
<mdke> Riddell, could you run us through that?
<mdke> it's the first we've heard
<judax> damn, I have to go, sorry will read the logs
<Riddell> we should be ubuntu/ kubuntu/ common/ and debian/
<mdke> Riddell, sure, i mean can you run us through the reasons?
<mdke> because i think that is likely to prevent ubuntu-docs from moving to gnome-doc-utils build process
<corey_> bloody hell
<ajmitch> the usual conference fun
<corey_> mdke, why?
<Riddell> I don't know about gnome-doc-utils
<Riddell> network here is terrible
<corey_> Riddell, I mentioned it to you
<mdke> Riddell, we have been talking about moving to it with jbailey 
<Kamion> mdke: mdz and I think that your comment about a documentation string freeze on DapperReleaseProcess is pretty much at the discretion of the doc team
<corey_> mdke, jbailey will no longer be involved with packaging
<Kamion> it seems perfectly reasonable to me
<mdke> corey_, so?
<mdke> Kamion, cool thanks
<corey_> mdke, dholbach and riddell will be doing it
<Kamion> mdke: except that pushing it back a week makes it collide with the distro's string freeze
<mdke> corey_, i know, but what does that mean?
<mdke> Kamion, we'll have to give it some more thought
<corey_> mdke, jbailey is moving into support completely, away from half distro, half support
<Kamion> mdke: ok, I don't think it needs to be decided immediately
<Kamion> anyway, apologies for interrupting your meeting
<mdke> corey_, you've said that on the mailing list, but what has that to do with gnome-doc-utils?
<corey_> mdke, not much
<mdke> Kamion, np thanks for the indication
<corey_> but we are straying far from the agenda
<mdke> i disagree
<mdke> the position of debian in the tree is part of the repository structure
<mdke> anyhow, we can come back to it maybe?
<corey_> we can talk about packaging at the next meeting, when it matters more
<corey_> or in between
<mdke> ok, we'll just leave the debian stuff where it is for now then
<mdke> item 2?
<corey_> moving the debian stuff will not majorily affect the writing of docs
<mdke> no one is talking
<mdke> :/
<corey_> yes
<corey_> shall we pass over the specific doc specs until we decide who is writing what?
<mdke> i hope people will feel free to write anything
<corey_> yes, but having one person that says they are working on one thing makes certain it is going to get written
<rob^> sorry here
<corey_> salut rob^ 
<mdke> not that certain :p
<rob^> hi corey_ 
<corey_> yes, but more chance
<mdke> anyhow, we should continue the current system of people being responsible for docs
<kjcole> Well, that took bloody forever!  (Wireless being uncooperative.)
<corey_> kjcole, you want to introduce yourself?
<rob^> brb
<kjcole> Nah.  ;-)  Kevin Cole from Gallaudet University, Brain-Washington, DC.
<corey_> an LTSP guy
<mdke> hello
<kjcole> Hi all.
<corey_> too bad jerome is not here
<mdke> item 2: has everyone looked at the spec server guide?
<corey_> mdke, did here what I said?
<corey_> davidj_ubz, welcome
<mdke> corey_, tbh if you eliminate specific docs, there is not gonna be much left on the agenda
<corey_> davidj_ubz, you want to introduce yourself?
<kjcole> mkde: Nope.  I'm relatively new here, and will probably watch, as I have much catching up to do
<davidj_ubz> corey_: thank you.  I'm sorry I couldn't join you sooner.
<davidj_ubz> I am the ltsp translations lead.
<mdke> hi davidj
<davidj_ubz> mdke: Hello.
<corey_> mdke, not really. We can talk about what specifically each of us want to do, which helps the LTSP people and others a good idea of who to talk to
<corey_> and people can begin drafting specs for docs
* mdke is totally confused as to what is going on
<corey_> mdke, I propose we swap the desktop/server guides to after the decision of the who is doing what
<mdke> just go ahead
<corey_> ok
<mdke> if you put something on the agenda page or say something here, it'll help me understand
<corey_> ok
<corey_> my thought was that people would say what they wanted to do for dapper
<corey_> I want to work primarily on the wiki and the launchpad landing pages
<corey_> after they said that, I would edit the docteamprojects page accordingly
<rob^> a half a slab of beer and greezy bacon and eggs at the hotel bar plays havac on your insides
<mdke> heh
<mdke> is the DocteamProjects page out of date?
<mdke> i updated it only last week
<mdke> and the kde stuff is quite up to date too i think
<bhuvan> but, couple preview/status pages were broken
<rob^> what are we up to?
<bhuvan> s/couple/couple of/
<mdke> rob^, we're off-agenda for the moment
<rob^> ah
<mdke> bhuvan, yes, it is so early in the cycle that previews won't work properly right now
<corey_> rob^, we are discussing what each person is doing for the dapper release cycle
<bhuvan> i meant, it was leading to wrong url
<rob^> ok
<bhuvan> couple of links had been corrected
<mdke> bhuvan, no big deal, but we can remove links if they are broken
<rob^> well I'm happy to keep working on the desktop guide and help contribute to the server guide
<mdke> brb, switching computers
<corey_> excellent
<corey_> bhuvan, what would you to work on for the dapper release?
<mdke> rob^, will you be working on kubuntu docs?
<bhuvan> i must contribute to server guide spec
<corey_> bhuvan, do you want to be the primary author of the server guide?
<mdke> erm
<mdke> he hasn't got commit access yet
<corey_> that is fine
<rob^> mdke, most likely not, I offered some help to the kubuntu desktop guide/faqguide but jjesse said he had it under control
<corey_> commit access is not a major barrior
<corey_> s/barrior/barrier
<mdke> perhaps some patches first corey_ ?
<corey_> mdke, sure
<rob^> +1 to that
<bhuvan> i can submit patches to server guide
<corey_> what I am trying to have by the end of this meeting is a clear idea of who is working on what
<mdke> the requirement is to enable us to see that the new contributor is serious, which I am sure is not a problem in bhuvan's case, but i think it should remain
<corey_> so if other people come to ask, we can point them to the correct person
<mdke> perhaps asking newcomers to take responsibility for a whole doc is unrealistic
<corey_> and we can thus create specs before the next meeting to be talked about
<rob^> mdke, agreed
<mdke> anyhow, i hope to contribute to the desktopguide, and continue working on translations and taking care of the server. Also I am gonna push the better-wiki-docs spec
<rob^> I think they should start by just submitting small patches that fix typos, bugs etc
<rob^> mdke, are you still going to take the lead on the server guide?
<mdke> no, i never intended to really
<mdke> you are heaps more technically proficient, and bhuvan too
<kjcole> As I mentioned to Corey and Jane, I'm leaning towards involvement with Edubuntu docs, particularly stuff based on the Tuxlab Cookbook... I think.
<rob^> oh, I kind of assumed you were..
<rob^> np
<mdke> kjcole, that is awesome
<rob^> yes, edubuntu can use some love
<Burgundavia> jeffsch, are you going to be working on the style guide again?
<jeffsch> yep
<Burgundavia> are we going to drop the learn linux stuff from our repos?
<rob^> if (and I mean IF) I get time I'll do something for xubuntu too, but it is very low priority
<rob^> Burgundavia, we 
<rob^> grr
<mdke> Burgundavia, let's keep to the agenda as much as we can
<Burgundavia> I am
<mdke> that is last
<Burgundavia> we are discussing specific people and specifc docs for dapper
<mdke> ok
<mdke> -1 on learn linux
<mdke> it is being actively developed elsewhere
<rob^> so why do we need it?
<mdke> we don't
<rob^> so why do we need to keep it?
<mdke> we don't
<Burgundavia> ok
<mdke> everyone ok with scrapping that?
<Burgundavia> ys
<rob^> np here
<mdke> ok, on we go
<rob^> lazerjock expressed intrest in working on the motu/packaging doc
<Burgundavia> I spoke with motus about moving to our repos
<rob^> he works with motu already iirc
<Burgundavia> they liked the idea
<mdke> LaserJock!
<rob^> I think it would be excellent
<LaserJock> I am a MOTUWannabe kinda but I have more interest in new user documentation
<mdke> welcome
<mdke> LaserJock, are you only interested in working on a packaging guide, or also other docs?
<kjcole> LaserJock, we may be in the same boat...
<LaserJock> well, I don't know. I don't have much time (I just started a MOTUScience team)
<mdke> fair enough
<bhuvan> ok. with regard to server guide, as i'm new, if someone takes the lead, i'm sure to back them consistently and stand responsible for dapper release
<LaserJock> I really don't know how much time is required, etc.
<LaserJock> I don't want to bite off more than I can chew ;-)
<mdke> bhuvan, that's great news, rob^ has also said he will work on it
<Burgundavia> ok, added the packaging guide to DocteamProjects
<rob^> bhuvan, well I can do that for now as I know the guide
<mdke> LaserJock, no obligations :) whenever you wanna submit a patch, we'll check it out and apply it
<Burgundavia> LaserJock, you want to speak with Unfrgiven to get us the doc so we can put it into our repos?
<LaserJock> mdke: thanks
<LaserJock> Burgundavia: will do
<mdke> thank you
<Burgundavia> thanks
<rob^> bhuvan, when your ready we can organise a commit account and you can take over
<bhuvan> ok
<mdke> shall we talk about the server guide a little?
<rob^> sure
<mdke> does anyone have any comments on the spec?
<rob^> I just did a brain dump on there a few days ago
<rob^> I think some of the AD stuff could go though
<mdke> I'd like to see the section titles a little more user friendly
<bhuvan> ok
<mdke> although obviously a server guide will be targeted at experienced users...
<bhuvan> imo, we can be more specific
<mdke> i think that some bits will be very relevant to new users
<mdke> and we should make em accessible
<rob^> so would I, but I just wanted to get the relevent parts we need to cover on the page
<mdke> sure, the material rocks
<mdke> bhuvan, go on
<rob^> so its pretty raw
<bhuvan> we can add few more sections under under services section (for example, under http we can add howto configure module)
<bhuvan> if need be, we may also add details about webmin
<bhuvan> again under ftp, we can add pros/cons various ftp servers
<mdke> good idea
<rob^> bhuvan, I thought about webmin myself, it should be there as well
<mdke> although there is a module section under http
<bhuvan> ok
<mdke> bhuvan, feel free to work on it and expand it before the writing starts
<rob^> bhuvan, feel free to go nuts on that wiki page
<bhuvan> ok
<rob^> heh
<bhuvan> sure
<mdke> i'd like to see it as user-accessible as possible, personally
<bhuvan> ok
<mdke> else, people will complain that we cut stuff out of the faqguide and made it hard to get at
<Burgundavia> can everybody check DocteamProjects, as I have updated it quite a lot
<bhuvan> ok
<rob^> mdke, sure but as everything will be done on the command line you still need to get everything across, just explain it properly
<bhuvan> anyhow, server guide is meant for admin/experieced users, imo
<rob^> what is Docs on the wiki?
<mdke> rob^, it's the section titles I'm really concerned about, because that will be the key to allowing people to access the simpler sections
<rob^> and Launchpad Landing pages?
<mdke> Burgundavia, yeah the docs on the wiki section is redundant, we have wiki pages
<mdke> morn
<jsgotangco> sorry *blushes*
<rob^> hi jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> i slept at 3am
<jsgotangco> :)
<ajmitch> hi jsgotangco 
<Burgundavia> mdke, we need a person that people can talk to about the wiki
<Burgundavia> I am volunteering for that person
<mdke> Burgundavia, there is a wikiteam section on that page
<mdke> Burgundavia, we also have a mailing list, and irc
<Riddell> can DocteamProjects please reference KubuntuDocs
<rob^> maybe just make the pointer to the wiki team more obvious
<mdke> i don't see a need for a specific person
<Burgundavia> mdke, I don't completely understand
<Burgundavia> mdke, I do
<jsgotangco> Riddell: sure I'll update it now
<rob^> Riddell, it does
<Burgundavia> rob^, I will clean that up
<mdke> Riddell, all the kubuntu docs are there
<mdke> Burgundavia, go ahead
<rob^> great :)
<mdke> why is there a need for a single point of contact for the wiki?
<Burgundavia> mdke, currently the wiki pages are second class citizens. I want to remove that
<mdke> sure, we all do
<mdke> there are loads of ways to try and do that, but how will a SPOC help?
<Burgundavia> that is why we have someone who says "I am working on the wiki as my primary doc'
<rob^> maybe a more obvious pointer on the main wiki page to the wikiteam is needed too
<mdke> we have a whole team that says that corey
<Burgundavia> yes
* jsgotangco just suggest use the wiki lp team
<Burgundavia> yes, but most of them do only very small amounts
<mdke> Burgundavia, my question is, how does a SPOC help? I'm not saying that you shouldn't do loads of work on the wiki
* Burgundavia is baffled about the objections
* jsgotangco then make the most out of the current lp team
<bhuvan> or, we can maintain a list of things to do on wiki. whoever has time or inclined can take it and close it ?
<mdke> bhuvan, absolutely
<Burgundavia> bhuvan, we already have a list of things to do
<bhuvan> i meant, it must be active
<Burgundavia> bhuvan, it is, CategoryCleanup
<jsgotangco> can LP be used to manage the work?
<mdke> Burgundavia, i just wanna understand why you think having one person who appears to be, for the purposes of the outside work, "in charge" of wiki work, will help
<rob^> Burgundavia, no objections to having a pointer to wikiteam and yourself, but it doesn't belong in the table as a "book"
<mdke> outside work/outside world*
<Burgundavia> rob^, but is a docteam project
<bhuvan> imo, its one of them. for example, if we come accross a wiki page with broken links as such, we can make an entry in the todo page and address it when we get time
<rob^> Burgundavia, that table is for books
* jsgotangco thinks it would only be applicable if the wiki had ACLs
<Burgundavia> ok, I removed the header at the top that mentioned books
<Burgundavia> now the page is all about the general projects we do, regardless of where they are developed
<rob^> eh
<mdke> but why is one person in charge of the wiki? that's not what the wiki is about
<Burgundavia> mdke, no, not one person in charge, one person who is going to devote most of their time to the wiki
* rob^ mumbles something about the docteam not having control of acls on thw wiki..
<mdke> you are free to devote that time, and I encourage it, but why SPOC? the wiki is an alive nest of contribution from all
<Burgundavia> because a SPOC creates order
<Burgundavia> the wiki needs order, very badly
<jsgotangco> a team doesn't?
<Burgundavia> yes
* jsgotangco thinks its just a matter of communication
<Burgundavia> I am basically already that person, I am just talking the role
<Burgundavia> for all pratical matters, it will matter very little
<jsgotangco> sure
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> i'm slightly concerned by this
<mdke> but let's move on
* jsgotangco still doesn't get the idea of wiki master unless there are ACL rights involved
<Burgundavia> if it becomes a problem, lets raise the specific issue
<rob^> if we had control of the acl and moin settings for the wiki then sure we would need a person who can devote time, otherwise its meaningless
<mdke> even then
<Burgundavia> well, lets get that
<mdke> henrik is the admin of the wiki
<robitaille> and he is on that wiki LP team...
<mdke> and having a volunteer as "wiki king" is a bit odd
<Burgundavia> yes he is
<Burgundavia> but the current wiki doesn't work, I am going to devote myself to understanding why it doesn't and where we can go to make it work
<rob^> the wiki is a community thing..
<mdke> i would prefer a group to be the contact for the wiki
<mdke> rob^, +1
<Burgundavia> bloody hell, I am not going to stop people writing on the wiki
<rob^> mdke, +1
<robitaille> personally I think on that DocteamProjects table we should simply put WikiTeam as the contact "person".
<mdke> Burgundavia, we are not going to stop you either
<Burgundavia> nor am I am going to tell people to shove off
<rob^> Burgundavia, we never said that
* jsgotangco still thinks the lp team is more than enough, just make it active
<mdke> ok well there is a reasonable consensus about this
<robitaille> is there a way to send to send an email to all themember of a LP team?
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, communites usually form around one key person
<mdke> robitaille, we have a mailing list
<jsgotangco> sure in the end, that person becomes overwhelmed
<mdke> Burgundavia, dictatorships do anyhow
<jsgotangco> well anyways, im not that much of a wiki person, i guess i'm not the right person to say it
<robitaille> mdke,  true.  
<Burgundavia> currently I have no different rights than anyone else and I don't expect tath will change very soon
<rob^> we should move on, either way there is nothing we can do about it as we don't control the wiki
<mdke> ok let's move on
<mdke> Burgundavia, i think you've seen that the team prefers the wikiteam to be the contact
<rob^> Burgundavia, if that changes, then sure I'm happy for you to lead it
* Burgundavia is completely baffled
<Burgundavia> we are yelling at ghosts
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia: go ahead with the plan if you think it's the right path, we don't have ACLs at the moment, i don't think it'll change much :)
<Burgundavia> no, I don't think it will either
<jsgotangco> let's see how this pans out :)
<Burgundavia> but we need someone who says "I work on the wiki"
<jsgotangco> yes
<mdke> Burgundavia, we have a group who says that
<Burgundavia> otherwise it will continue towards entropy
<mdke> ah well, this is stale
<Burgundavia> mdke, they are not stopping the entropy
<jsgotangco> at least i'll have someone to yell at when something gets borked :)
<mdke> let's move on
* rob^ points at the agenda
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, that is primary reason why I stepped up
<jsgotangco> ok good enough for me then :)
<mdke> i've always hated the idea of team leaders in Ubuntu
<mdke> they don't work
<jsgotangco> mdke: well the distro works :)
<rob^> heh
<mdke> yes
* jsgotangco is in a nice saturday morning cartoons mode
<Burgundavia> yes, but neither does a completely anarchy
<mdke> agreed, hence the team
<Burgundavia> like the current wiki
* rob^ bashes head against wall
<Burgundavia> yes, but the team is currently not helping
<mdke> that has nothing to do with having a SPOC
<mdke> the problems on the wiki are deeper than that
<Burgundavia> yes it is
<rob^> (less painful you see)
<mdke> rob^, :)
* mdke shuts up
<jsgotangco> quit it guys :)
<Burgundavia> mdke, I agree, hence why I am going to devote all of my doc team time to it
<rob^> Burgundavia, cool go nuts
<rob^> anyway..
<jsgotangco> ok so we have Burgundavia do all the wiki work sounds good
<rob^> have we done repository layout?
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia: go nuts on the LP team as well, slave them up if possible, they didn't sign up for nothing :)
<rob^> even if we don't change much around, some redundant stuff needs to go
<Burgundavia> mdke, I don't have my freenode password here on this laptop, and thus cannot talk back to you in a /query
* robitaille hides in a corner since he hasn't done a lot of wiki work lately
<rob^> or at least sectioned off
<mdke> ah crap
* rob^ goes an makes a coffee
<bhuvan> next its desktop guide ?
<mdke> yes, ok
<mdke> qanda format?
<mdke> i'd like to scrap it, any views?
<Burgundavia> mdke, scrap which?
<mdke> the phrasing of the questions in the desktop guide
<mdke> (agenda)
<Burgundavia> ah
<jsgotangco> qanda sets
<Burgundavia> I am don't know either way
<Burgundavia> I would like to get some real feedback
<bhuvan> desktop guide. it's going to be q/a format or book format ?
<mdke> me too
<mdke> how?
<jsgotangco> the qanda works, why change it totally?
<mdke> hang on
<mdke> i like the qanda, i just don't like the patronising way it the questions are phrased
<mdke> i think qanda could be continued, but without questions
<mdke> tell me if I didn't explain that properly on the agenda
<rob^> back
<jeffsch> ok, i have to go. cya later
<bhuvan> ok
<rob^> mdke, I think it could still be a book anyhow
<bhuvan> but without questions
<rob^> the qanda format is more for a faq type doc but the guides are moving away from that
<rob^> the faq guide is a bloody big faq too
<mdke> i think the qanda format preserves clarity and keeps things to the point
<rob^> yes but it doesn't leave as much room for explination imo
<rob^> ie it doesn't suit the format, as you said qanda is to the point
<rob^> can we have a mix?
<mdke> is it not possible to separate the explanation from the answers in some subtle way?
<mdke> the reason people like the faqguide is that it is quick and easy
<mdke> if we get bogged down, another ubuntuguide will spring up
<rob^> mdke, usually with <note> tags
<Burgundavia> Matthew Thomas likes the idea of dropping the q/a style for the faqguide
<rob^> thats true
<mdke> you can't combine <para> and qanda?
<rob^> yes
<mdke> ok...
<rob^> but the how many faqs have you seen that have lots of paragraphs for each answer?
<bhuvan> why are we retaining the q/a type, because its from faqguide ?
<mdke> i think we are falling into the error of being tied to the terminology of "faq"
<jsgotangco> because it works as is
<mdke> the qanda thing works IMO
<mdke> just because there is no longer going to be a document called faq, that is no reason not to use helpful technology
<rob^> well what would be the best way to form the questions?
<jsgotangco> its basically "snappy answers to stupid questions" kind of thing
<mdke> ok lemme give you an example
<mdke> what is a question in the guide?
<rob^> the "how do I" format reminds me of an idiots guide 
<mdke> "How can I setup apache" -> "setting up apache"
<mdke> no need to change anything technical
<rob^> whist we are on this topic, what are peoples thoughts about installing packages (gai/synaptic/aptitude)?
<jsgotangco> i'd stick to gai
<mdke> my view is that we should explain various ways
<Burgundavia> gai is getting much simpler for dapper
<rob^> I really hope gai gets a way to install packages without the .desktop files (most of them)
<Burgundavia> rob^, not going to happen
<Burgundavia> rob^, file bugs on packages that don't have .desktop files
<rob^> then what is the point of it?
<mdke> and when documenting a specific program, refer back to the installation instructions, and specify the package and the repository
<rob^> thats 95% of the packages
<mpt> yo
<jsgotangco> yo
<Burgundavia> rob^, because we can fix that
<Burgundavia> rob^, anyway, offtopic now
* jsgotangco thinks stick to gai then go console if its not in gai yet
<mdke> guys, guys
<rob^> how? we need to figure out how we are going to write about it
<mdke> what is wrong with documenting all installation methods?
<Burgundavia> mdke, because we confuse users?
<mdke> in any case, each individual section will not repeat the instructions, they will be in one place
<mpt> "You can do this or do this or do this or do this" isn't good help
<jsgotangco> because it defaats the purpose of creating gai in the first place?
<mdke> mpt, that is not how I would envisage doing it
<mpt> for a complicated thing that people don't want to do often
<rob^> mdke, because having to switch installation methods makes Linux and Ubuntu look stupid and hacker-ish
<mdke> you dont' have to switch
<mdke> you just explain the relative advantages and disadvantages
<mdke> its a guide, people can learn
<jsgotangco> mdke: then its better off as a book
* mdke blinks
<mdke> what is the difference?
<mdke> book, guide, faq, whatever
<mdke> it's the same
<kjcole> Multiple choices confuse newcomers.  If you're going to offer all, recommend one more strongly, and make sure it's the first...
<rob^> yes I agree
<mdke> oh sure
<mdke> that i take for granted
<kjcole> (The first listed in the doc I mean.)
* jsgotangco didn't see Fedora or RHEL document various installation methods
<mdke> jsgotangco, if Fedora told you to jump off a cliff... 
<rob^> heh
<mpt> Not all distro problems have a documentation solution
<mpt> Confusion about installation methods is a distro problem
<kjcole> I dunno...  Seems when I installed fedora I encountered references to both up2date and yum pretty quickly.
<mpt> So just make the best of it.
<jsgotangco> mdke: that's not the point, these new installation methods were made with a specific mindset and a general audience...
<rob^> but installing packages is pretty important and solves most of our problems
<rob^> in the docs
<kjcole> Could just be my faulty memory and a lot of pre-exposure to other RH variants.
<mdke> jsgotangco, i agree. however the desktop guide addresses LOADS of things that you can't use gai to sort out
<rob^> mdke, and thats the problem
<mdke> i think it should be offered as the general means to install things, and then the alternatives should be explained and the advs/disadvs noted
<jsgotangco> mdke: if you don't rally around gai, which is an ubuntu specific app, then whats your priority then
<mdke> my priority would be teaching users how things work
<jsgotangco> mdke: gai still uses synaptic for all its worth, which can do most things that aptitude does (only aptitude is cleaner imo)
<robitaille> actually you can call synaptic from within GAI, so technically most things can be done from gai
<rob^> but then we can't stick to the point, we have to explain things
<mdke> and allowing them to try apt-get and see if they prefer it
* robitaille still still apt-get should off limits for official docs
<jsgotangco> mdke: sure but your guides must have scope in the first place, otherwise, you'll end up in a mess
<jsgotangco> the keywords here are "scope & limitation"
<mdke> jsgotangco, yes, i think this can be done with minimal confusion, along the lines of what kjcole outlined
<mdke> we will lose a lot of readers if we don't explain how to use apt-get
<mdke> IMHO
<jsgotangco> mdke: that's why google is our friend
<rob^> but the thing is we did in the faq guide in Breezy, and listed the packages, and people still complained
<mdke> jsgotangco, that is also why forked guides happen
<mdke> rob^, yeah I don't think the approach of the faqguide is a long way off what I'd like to see
<jsgotangco> mdke: you can't avoid those, people scratch their own itch
<mdke> jsgotangco, we need to listen to people's itches
<mdke> not just our own
<Burgundavia> mdke, we can talk about apt-get in the server guide
<rob^> yep
<Burgundavia> I would remove it from the desktop guide
<jsgotangco> mdke: in my opinion, it would take a full-time job to do such
<kjcole> In fact, since it's HTML, a "surface document" that offers the most useful, simplest straightforward way for everything, and then a deeper layer for edge cases, or "challenging" stuff.
* jsgotangco thinks forking is good, after all the docs are licensed in a way that encourages them to use and modify it
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> jsgotangco, so you don't like the current section in the faqguide about installing?
<rob^> well I guess we will go gai then launch synaptic from gai when needed, and mention apt-get in the preface like the faqguide kind of did?
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> gai, then launch synaptic when needed is pretty lame, thinking about it
<bhuvan> ok. in addition, we must remove couple of sections from desktop guide which already exists in server guide
<bhuvan> they should not overlap
<rob^> mdke, yep
<mdke> bhuvan, yes, we haven't started doing that yet, they are currently identical copies
<rob^> mdke, I know
<bhuvan> ok
<rob^> well almost identical
<jsgotangco> mdke: i didn't say i don't like it, its just not written in a way that ubuntu make it so, which is gai/synaptic, these apps were developed with a purpose of simplification, as much as possible, we as official documentors should focus on such projects, after all, what we write are part of the distro, as much as personal preferences on our side matter, it shouldn't
<mdke> but if gai is the only tool to install things from the menu, we have no choice
<mdke> jsgotangco, the problem is that the desktopguide doesn't deal with things like "how to install gnome-blog" it deals with things like "install gstreamer0.8-plugins" or "gdesklets-data"
<Burgundavia> mdke, synaptic is not going away for dapper and can be launched from within gai
<mdke> Burgundavia, yeah but if we ask people to search through gai for a package, then to open synaptic if they don't find it, they are gonna be pissed off at us
<Burgundavia> mdke, yes, there is no clean solution
<rob^> Burgundavia, not as far as I can see either
<mdke> unless we tell them where every single package is
<mdke> or use apt-get for everything :)
<Burgundavia> ouch
<jsgotangco> mdke: in the first place, gai isn't properlty documented yet, hence people will definitely assume a lot, that's why synaptic is mentioned as an advanced tool
<mdke> or synaptic for everything
<bhuvan> we can instruct to use gai in the beginning and continue to use synaptic
<kjcole> Oops.  Time's flying, and I need to catch someone before 8:00 (Montreal time).  Ta-ta.
<bhuvan> iirc, similar to debian dselect first and continue with apt-get
<jsgotangco> later kjcole 
<rob^> I think this is more an issue of gai itself, heck even us documenters can't even figure this out!
<bhuvan> :)
<mdke> bhuvan, jsgotangco, but the problem is that the desktop guide does not only deal with installing mainstream programs, but rather installing niggly packages needed to configure stuff like dvds and such
<rob^> all gai needs is a better way to install packages that are not in its lists, even just a simple dialog box where you could type the package names would suffice
<rob^> then it is a one stop shop
<bhuvan> we are clear that couple of packages cant be found by gai. so we must look for an alternative, right ?
<mdke> does it have a search tool?
<rob^> its gai that is lacking here imo
<jsgotangco> mdke: i'd really want to define scope and limiation for the docs atm, or else, it'll never end we're just trying to cover too much in my opinion
<mdke> jsgotangco, ok are you suggesting scrapping the desktopguide? a lot of work went into it last release
<jsgotangco> mdke: i didn't say anything about scrapping, i said scope
<mdke> sure, but a doc with a scope which is tailored for gai would mean a radically stripped down desktopguide from what it is right now
<jsgotangco> what's your scope? who's your audience? everyone? that's a pretty hefty task in my opinion even if you are faced a 3 year support cycle for desktop
<rob^> getting my multimedia to work properly is within its scope..
<mdke> we'd have to remove most of the useful stuff actually
<rob^> cant do that just using gai alone though
<mdke> no
<mdke> things that can't be resolved using gai need MORE documentation, not less
* mdke tries the search in gai
<rob^> I think the opposite is true here though, gai needs MORE work.. 
<jsgotangco> rob^: give some credit to the devels, for 6 months work (or less), its pretty good
<rob^> as a package installation tool I find it useless as it is limited in what it can do
<mdke> jsgotangco, i totally agree about scope, but I just disagree with the scope that the desktopguide should have
<bhuvan> so, let our document not depend on it tooo much..
<mdke> the document really can't depend on it too much
<jsgotangco> well in another POV, the sources.list contains all the repos really so go figure :)
<mdke> or we'll have to remove most of multimedia, and loads of tips and tricks
<rob^> then we will have another ubuntu guide on our hands
<Burgundavia> there is going to be a completely new repo dialog for dapper
<mdke> exactly
<rob^> forking is not always a good thing
<mdke> no
<Burgundavia> but gai will not deal with the corner cases until dapper+1
<bhuvan> yeah
* jsgotangco opinion in gai is simply how linspire uses its click-n-run if you're going to marketi something be firm on it, instead of having 1, 2 or 3 ways of doing the same action
<rob^> Burgundavia, if we get lucky :)
<mdke> unless gai can install gstreamer0.8-mad, we are going to HAVE to include other methods of support
<mdke> or remove vital stuff from the guide
<mdke> OR specify in every case which package manager to use
<Burgundavia> rob^, no, it will happen for dapper+1
<bhuvan> we must not remove vital stuff from doc just due to inability of gai
<rob^> mdke, thats how I see we are going to have to do it
<mdke> bhuvan, 100% agreed with you
<Burgundavia> I think it might be better to list that we need to use synaptic to install the non-gai stuff
<bhuvan> lets give an introduction about gai and move on using another convenient tool
<rob^> Burgundavia, it could happen now if they implemented the suggestion I mentoned earlier
<Burgundavia> and list gai general
<Burgundavia> rob^, what was that?
<bhuvan> as Burgundavia said, it would be stablilized in dapper+1, so we can make amendments by that time
<rob^> Burgundavia, just a simple dialog in gai where you could type the package names, it could then use apt-get to install them, problem solved for now :)
<mdke> i think we are going to have to see how it develops, to a certain extent
* jsgotangco dunno we're going circles gai isn't meant to replace all known installation methods, but most people won't bother using synaptic as much as possible
<Burgundavia> rob^, hmm, might be an idea
<rob^> heck I could dodgy something up with python that would do it in a few hours
<mdke> yes it is a good idea
<mdke> get onto -devel about it
<rob^> then users could just copy/paste from our guide
<bhuvan> imo, now, lets propose a method, conduct voting and close it at the earliest!
<mdke> bhuvan, i think it is too early, we will need to see how gai develops
<bhuvan> ok
<rob^> yep
<bhuvan> ok
<bhuvan> then, we can let it boil till next meeting ?
<mdke> are we going to come to a decision on whether to use "questions"?
* jsgotangco would still go for gai then synaptic for advance use as gai recommends so
* mdke is looking to see if anything on the agenda has been decided
<rob^> mdke, I think just drop "how do I
<rob^> "
<mdke> rob^, +1
<davidj_ubz> 'night
<rob^> still keep qanda as changing it will be too much work for not much benifit
<mdke> +1
<rob^> s/benifit/benefit
<mdke> couldn't agree more
<rob^> ok problem sovled I guess
<rob^> s/sovled/solved
<mdke> i hope to also integrate a bit of the old userguide into the desktop guide
<rob^> grr bloody hangover
<rob^> yes
<rob^> that is what I'm planning on doing where possible, no need to reinvent the wheel
<mdke> cool
<mdke> i have a question on serverguide, everyone agrees it can be common to ubuntu/kubuntu?
<mdke> i do
<rob^> I'll just have to add the userguide authors to the desktop guide 
<rob^> mdke, yes
<rob^> mdke, as its command line based it doesn't matter much
<jsgotangco> a server has no X so it's common
<bhuvan> agreed
<jsgotangco> unless we have X tools
<rob^> and they use the same repos so everything is exactly the same
<mdke> well, that's not true, but I know what you mean :D
<rob^> ?
<mdke> the serverguide can be used by people who run X
<mdke> lots of desktop users want to install apache
<jsgotangco> sure 
<mdke> ok cool, moving on
<rob^> they can using apt-get regardless what they use
<jsgotangco> what i meant is that a server guide would only use CLI tools as we don't have gtk/qt server apps atm
<jsgotangco> not the actual usage
<bhuvan> yeah, in desktop guide we can point them to server guide if need be
<mdke> yeah absolutely
<mdke> right, can we talk about kubuntu docs a bit?
<rob^> sure
<mdke> jjesse isn't here :/
<rob^> yeah 
<jsgotangco> KubuntuDocs is available though
<rob^> I mentioned kudos/kubuntu desktop guide but was told it was under control
<mdke> the KubuntuDocs page is very good
<mdke> very well organised
<jsgotangco> it already got BOF'ed and speced so that'll be ths scope of work
<mdke> We should get it integrated with DocteamProjects if possible
<rob^> umm, isn't that the reason we have docteamprojects page?
<mdke> although the kubuntu docs are there already, it's annoying to have 2 frames of reference
<jsgotangco> Kubuntu is a natural desktop oriented release so there is tighter scope
<jsgotangco> rob^: KubuntuDocs is an ubz spec, yes it can be added to DocteamProjects
<rob^> cool
<mdke> i think it should be merged in
<mdke> ok last couple of agenda items
<mdke> installation guide?
<rob^> I've seen some intrest in this by people
* mdke nods
<rob^> but we really have to wait and see what happens with ubuntu express
<mdke> hopefully they will come forward again
<rob^> because there won't be an "install cd" then
<mdke> yeah ok
<mdke> last thing
<mdke> cleaning up trunk
<mdke> learnlinux we decided is going
<mdke> what else is there that shouldn't be?
<jsgotangco> kde upstream if posssible
<rob^> do we need the upstream stuff?
<rob^> I don't really use it
<mdke> i don't think so
<jsgotangco> no one uses it
<mdke> we certainly don't need it for the docs as they are defined right now
<mdke> so they can go too!
<mdke> yay
<rob^> if I wanted to I'd get the latest copy from the relevent repos
<bhuvan> ok. kde/debian ?
<jsgotangco> sean added them before for vendor drops i believe
<mdke> bhuvan, we can talk about that later on in the cycle i believe
<bhuvan> oh, fine
* mdke deleted learnlinux
<rob^> can gnome and kde be renamed to ubuntu and kubuntu instead?
<mdke> :D
<mdke> rob^, yeah we thought on balance that would be a good idea
<mdke> jsgotangco, any objections?
<rob^> same
<bhuvan> rob^, +1
<mdke> we had a brief chat before you turned up about it
<rob^> at least new people will know where to look
<mdke> no one else objected
<rob^> cool
<jsgotangco> none at all
<mdke> jerome?
<mdke> cool
* mdke does it now
<jsgotangco> holler us when we can svn up
<mdke> will do
<rob^> and generic can probably go altogether
<mdke> rob^, we'll need it for serverguide
<bhuvan> when we talk about clean-up, we have couple of invalid docs in trunk
<rob^> mdke, oh yeah true
<bhuvan> i meant, ./validate.sh fails
<mdke> bhuvan, yes
<mdke> does anyone know why?
<bhuvan> can you have a script to validate all docs at end of day
<bhuvan> ??
<rob^> there is a problem with a few docs I think
<rob^> the desktop/server guides validate properly iirc
<bhuvan> if any of them are invalid, an email should be sent
<bhuvan> may be to our mailing list
<bhuvan> someone can poke into to address it
<mdke> the current invalid docs are kquickguide and kuserguide iirc
<bhuvan> ok
<rob^> bhuvan, if you run into any problems just ask
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia: what is Launchpad Landing Pages about? its an LP thing right so why add it as a project?
<rob^> jsgotangco, I was thinking the same thing
<mdke> yeah me too
<bhuvan> not really, but i want all docs to be valid all the time. if its not, it should be brought to notice
<mdke> yes
<jsgotangco> LP is supposed to give different support options, its a business oriented approach
<mdke> bhuvan, the problem is, no one knows how to fix it
<mdke> jsgotangco, yeah i think it will be mainly paid support
<rob^> is not really a docteam project
<rob^> we don't do the help pages for it
<jsgotangco> ok can someone mail to the list what specific docs are not validating
<jsgotangco> so we can triage them
<bhuvan> mdke, ok
<mdke> jsgotangco, there have been like 10 mails about it in the last week
<mdke> kquickguide and kuserguide don't validate because of a problem they have with ccbysa.xml
<bhuvan> mdke, atleast now, i'll check manually and see whether i can address it
<mdke> thanks bhuvan, would be great if you can
<rob^> mdke, I think its the way it includes them from memory
<rob^> they need to use xinclude instead of entities
<mdke> well they should be working as entities too
<jsgotangco> mdke: at least a list of all docs that won't validate will be useful i get like 200 emails a day...i have time later to look into it otheres will probably find it useful too
<mdke> jsgotangco, those emails listed the two docs that don't validate
<mdke> and the error
<jsgotangco> ok only 2 docs then
<mdke> afaik yes
<jsgotangco> can i svn up now?
<mdke> sure, i haven't committed the rename yet
<rob^> using xinclude is a little different from entities, when you use xinclude the included page needs to have a full header whereas as an entity it is put exactly as is in the doc
<jsgotangco> err just deleted learnlinux?
<rob^> it puts it exactly as is I meant to say
<mdke> jsgotangco, problem?
<jsgotangco> mdke: no i thought it'll be much more than that
<mdke> jsgotangco, i haven't finished...
<mdke> :)
<mdke> just cleaning up my local tree first
<rob^> we should be using xincludes anyway for translation
<jsgotangco> ok
<mdke> rob^, yeah ideally
<jsgotangco> i should go downstairs for breakfast
<rob^> I'll fix it after you upload your changes
<jsgotangco> so anything else?
<mdke> i think that does it
<jsgotangco> ok that was a good 3 hours at least
<mdke> 2 and a half
<rob^> nope
<mdke> actually 2, we started late ;)
<mdke> anyway, was a heated one
<jsgotangco> its a nice sunny saturday morning here 
<mdke> thanks all, glad we sorted most stuff out
<mdke> jsgotangco, it's freezing here :)
<jsgotangco> sucks to be there then
<mdke> lol
<bhuvan> cool
<mdke> my boss was in manila last week
<rob^> heh
<mdke> bhuvan, where are you from by the way?
<mhz_shower> .oO(it seems I mistaken the UTC time :((( )
<bhuvan> india, chennai
<rob^> I ah just updated DocteamProjects
<mdke> bhuvan, ah, i'm afraid I don't know where that is :)
<bhuvan> :)
<bhuvan> hope you may know india ?
<jsgotangco> bhuvan: whoa what time is it there? 3am?
<bhuvan> chennai is one of the metro in south side
* mdke looks it up
<bhuvan> its 6:55am now
<mdke> yeah i've heard of india
<jsgotangco> mdke: sure british east india company lol
<mdke> :)
<bhuvan> absolutely!
<mdke> anyhow i wanna keep talking, let's go back to #doc
<rob^> sure
<\sh> ok..
<LaserJock> wait, is it now?
<KyralRetsam> yes
<\sh> all motus and motus wanna be yes
<magnon> Ubuntu MOTU meeting here right now
<\sh> are sitting here now
<LaserJock> crap, stupid daylight savings ;-)
<magnon> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTUMeeting
<zakame> hi all
<dholbach> hi everybody
<\sh> ok...it's quite difficult now...i'll try to write up all the statements we have here in montreal
<slomo> hi everybody :)
<KyralRetsam> yo
<sladen> I thought people were going to be physically in the same place too
<bmonty_laptop> someone needs to buy \sh a beer if he is going to type everything they say in Montreal
<KyralRetsam> lol
<dholbach> sladen: we are... comfy chairs
<sladen> dholbach: bar?
<zakame> hihi
<dholbach> sladen: yes
<highvoltage> i'm a motu-wannabe, but i want to sign up in a few weeks time, i just want to watch for now.
<magnon> we
<magnon> we're having our meeting in montreal right now live, so we're trying to put up our main points
<magnon> Our main problem is that version freeze and feature freeze is six and eight weeks away
<magnon> and we have 1000+ merges
<KyralRetsam>  You guys should put up the channel on like a projector ;P
<zakame> magnon: gaah
<magnon> about 1300 I believe
<KyralRetsam> 6 weeks?! Yikes....
<\sh> we're discussing right now, that we have only 6 weeks of open development, means, that we can only in this timeframe new packages into universe and doing all the merges of our packages which have ubuntu versions
<tritium> where's the live video feed of the meeting?  ;)
<magnon> keep the noise ratio down too please...
<KyralRetsam> sorry
<sladen> > even if we get a new upstream version we should always consier taking the debian version 
<sladen> > we will try and merge rounds
<sladen> > who decies on which pakcage goes into which round---keybuk's descisesion?
<sladen> > it was a disccusion in the release process
<sladen> > if people want to fix anything, let them
<bmonty_laptop> what if debian version is broken?
<sladen> > with the mergeing processs, we agreed that after IUVG we stop synching
<sladen> > sync if there's no new debian upstream
<sladen> > we'd still be honouring debian upstream
<sladen> > colin had this concern that there's no problem to get anything you want in a new revision
<sladen> > even with a 60kB patch or something
<sladen> > the propostal was made tyesterday that we have a couple of people doing the merges the ahrd way by hand
<sladen> > I don't see why, what's difference froma normal merge to somebody in the task force
<sladen> > we saw it in the breezy relase cycle that some people wee disappearing
<sladen> > I know I'm going to disappear from the end of ...
<sladen> > ...when you know that you're not going to have time, tell i
<sladen> s> so you want a list of people who claimi to be working on this
<sladen> > ok
<sladen> > I don't really like the idea
<magnon> good job sladen :P
<sladen> > because... if I want to help out osomewhere then I want to do it oluntarily, and not beuacse the team requires me to
<sladen> > then are much more likey to be working on bugfixing whereas there asre other people on the channel doing packageing ... like stofgger olsen
<magnon> *christoffer
<sladen> > some people have to vring in the new people from revu---when did you do the last review ...during breezy, we have to clean that up as there's a huge list of stuff and it would help to get new people in and we should push them more attactive
<sladen> > there are some KDE gys --- that there' s aproblme with KDE people
<sladen> > but then apply the same process to all the packages
<sladen> > but renviewing takes time... loits of time
<sladen> > especially when people are packaging stuff with strange copytigh licesnse or even wird languea   I can read Frehcn!
<sladen> > strange stuff, not French stuff
<sladen> > do I read the agenada correctly?
<dholbach> we have huge amount of crack here :)
<KyralRetsam> lol
<dholbach> and we're loosing track of what we say
<sladen> > there are french people that don't speak a word of English. ... but Debian copyrigh has to be readable, as you can't expect Elmo to learn French to read licnese
<sladen> > <elmo> a debian copyright in French whould get a single word response.. "Non!"
<KyralRetsam> is he like putting down what people say in realtime? Or TRYING to?!
<sladen> > what do we do if the Debian peoepl are slacking... there's enough, there' sa 15k packages that need merging
<sladen> > ther problem is that when we first get this in, there won't be any updates
<sladen> > you'll get an expection to UBG if you can show that the upload fixes a fix
<sladen> s/UBG/UVF/
<sladen> > we don't want to make too much work for outsleves, tis' a samll team
<sladen> > if you're going to be doing things, you'll going to have to be reasonaible forthat unilt relase
<sladen> for that until relase
<sladen> > we have to reduce the number of Ubuntu specific packgaes and mainly because of trival changes and changes
<sladen> > or get them upstream or Debian so that we're not maintianing them
<sladen> > try and get a team that just work with Debian and try to push things?
<sladen> > No!  Absotutely not!
<sladen> > I was lazy in that reard myself, but ...
<sladen> > the problem for breezy was that the tfor breezy we didn't have the teim, but now we have the time and should be able to push the pachates to Debian adna push it back in the futre or during the feature freeze
<sladen> WHat's my oion on all this?
<slomo> about getting ubuntu changes back to debian... wasn't there this utnubu project which wanted to get ubuntu changes back into debian? or did they silently die?
<zakame> there is that at alioth
<magnon> there is such a project, but it relies on the debian maintainers for a certain package to be alive
<siretart> utnubu is focusin on getting NEW packages into debian from ubuntu, rather than to catch individual patches
<slomo> if the debian maintainer isn't alive we have no way to get the changes in anyway... except when doing a NMU
<KyralRetsam> If the Debian devs aren't alive then the Ubuntu person who made the patch become the dev
<siretart> then we don't need to care anyway
<bmonty_laptop> KyralRetsam: I think that would become unmanageable
<crimsun> that still creates a merge delta
<zakame> KyralRetsam: yep, but that would require the person being sponsored by a DD, unless (s)he's a DD...
<magnon> KyralRetsam: right now that would be somewhat impossible with the amount of work we have to do before UVF
<KyralRetsam> ah okay
<magnon> and the fact that ubuntu doesn't have "maintainers" in that sense
<bmonty_laptop> did they stop talking in Montreal, or did sladen get tired :)
<sladen> > ...talk about mathcing Debian names with things like  -v2  and if Ubuntu universe has arleady stripped that name off
<magnon> sladen got tired :p
<sladen> bmonty_laptop: they asked me a question and I lost track :)
<zakame> sladen: awww
<bmonty_laptop> haha
<sladen> > thigns like the disk bar applet that was new and before relase and broke and not okay to have it in before realse
<sladen> what we really need is saudoi streaming rather than a trasbiption
<slomo> yes... but it's too late now :(
<sladen> > we have to get packages reviewed then UVF.  New packages which don't requrie new packages that don't require new dependcies, do we accpept them?
<sladen> > I think we agree on a date, after UVF that we have as our own freeze date for new packages
<sladen> > we need a few weeks to test for bugs for thigns that are going to be in universe, does 4 weeks
<slomo> hm, about UVF for universe... i hope it will be some days after the UVF for main?
<ajmitch> slomo: not likely
<dholbach> we're just discussing the freeze for NEW packages
<ajmitch> sladen suggests: freeze for NEW packages at preview release time
<sladen> <sladen> I don't think anything should go into universe after the Preview rlease
<dholbach> one suggestion was 4 weeks before release
<dholbach> anything NEW
<\sh> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DapperReleaseSchedule
<slomo> ajmitch: that's bad imho... think of a new version of a package in universe which needs a new version of a package in main... this package in main gets updated in the last minute and the universe package can't be uploaded anymore without breaking UVF...
<\sh> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DapperReleaseProcess
<slomo> dholbach: 4 weeks before release for NEW packages should be fine imho...
<crimsun> I think we're going to have to be a lot more conservative
<siretart> I'd say lets bind that to the release preview
<sladen> > we have to decided separately between package uploads and reving the library
<crimsun> 4 weeks is the absolute minimum
<sladen> crimsun: agree
<magnon> slomo: exceptions can be made
<ajmitch> slomo: we're discussing that - we can't really approve anything new that breaks UVF
<magnon> even in main
<magnon> if there's a very very good reason for it
<ajmitch> magnon: but for NEW in universe? I don't think there'll be much chance
<magnon> new stuff after UVF? I don't want that
<magnon> I don't see why it should be differenced
<sladen> > we had stuff in universe which hasn't build for the last two versions
<sladen> > ...there's focus between getting new stuff and fixing stuff that hasn't built
<siretart> dholbach proposed to start a poll in launchpad about the deadline for NEW packages in universe
<sladen> > we have 6 weeks to get new versions in after the no new software
<sladen> > if we look at the relase scheuld, we have merging, ... UVF, and then we can't do aynthing anytmore so we need a phase where we insert those new packages
<ajmitch> 6 weeks from now, until UVF
<ajmitch> I think it's about 8 weeks, actually
<ajmitch> but 8 weeks for NEW packages?
<hub> wow
<hub> that is short
<siretart> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DapperReleaseSchedule
<crimsun> I don't see why NEW packages should get an exception from FeatureFreeze at the absolute best
<ajmitch> we have to look at each package, until the deadline
<ajmitch> crimsun: yep
<ajmitch> crimsun: so that'd be 6 weeks post-UVF
<slomo> crimsun: NEW packages don't break anything... and a buggy package is imho better than none
<crimsun> slomo: I think none is better in that case, since it'll be much more difficult to push changes into -updates
<crimsun> Dapper has a mandate essentially to be as polished as possible, and we have to trade off features for stability
<tritium> yes
<farruinn> crimsun: ditto, was just about to say that
<sladen> > we're spending a lot of time talkign about this and the answer is actually ogin got be a case-by-case
<ajmitch> although it will be case-bycase, we need a deadline
<slomo> i would vote FF for NEW packages then...
<LaserJock> What about at Feature Freeze
<crimsun> as would I.
<crimsun> 6 weeks post-UVF
<sladen> > please let us know a policof MIA (Missing in action/ AWOL)
<slomo> what?
<magnon> if someone goes AWOL/MIA, -let the team know- etc.
<LaserJock> isn't that in the Code of Conduct?
<zakame> exit gracefully
<magnon> yes
<sladen> but it probably hasn't been happening
<slomo> hm, would be a really short policy: tell someone when you're leaving forever/for some days ;)
<sladen> > if people touch other packages and then go away and two months later the maintineaer comes back and says ''I alerady ha the patches'' ... why didn't you put them in bugzilla/upload
<LaserJock> it might be nice to have a MOTUPolicies wiki that has all of this kind of stuff
<zakame> hmmm, how about co-maintaining?
<magnon> we don't have maintainers
<slomo> sladen: who do you mean with maintainer?
<crimsun> the entire MOTU team can touch any package
<zakame> oh
<magnon> but it's polite to let people do their thing, since you might end up with duplicate work
<magnon> however, if you leave, then we need to know that you do
<sladen> slomo: the person who last 'touched' that pacakge
<magnon> we're talking about a mailing list to improve communication
<zakame> yeah, iirc dholbach raised it up during the last CC meeting
<sladen> > ... we dont' have a channel/mailing list for social channel for MOTUs
<KyralRetsam> you mean #ubuntu-motu isnt social?
<sladen> > ... suggesting a social mialing list for ''I'm jetting off to ...''
<magnon> more about so you can say when you're away, talk about new software you want in, planning releases, etc.
<magnon> non-technical development, so to say
<sladen> > non-technical mailing list
<zakame> motu-proprio
<sladen> > time is nearly up
<sladen> > pitti mentioned universe-security
<hub> why not
<sladen> > we badly need a proper team rather than hit and run members.
<KyralRetsam> I've been getting a lot of questions on the Ubuntu-Users ML about this topic
<sladen> > we need peoepl to go and read debian-security-annunce and check d"did we get that in in the latest sync"
<sladen> > and preparing deb diffs
<crimsun> I've started doing that post-Breezy
<tritium> we need some team structure
<crimsun> so if there's motion for a team, I'm all for it
<KyralRetsam> security team?
<zakame> agree
<sladen> > is this a BOF or something?
<ajmitch> crimsun: there's always been a motion for a team
<magnon> haha
<magnon> > you will all die a terrible death!
<sladen> > we should refer brainstorming to another meeting
<magnon> (-fabio)
<sladen> > this was quite productive
<sladen> > silcence!
<\sh> sladen - the living typewriter
<siretart> '
<KyralRetsam> lol
<sladen> > will someone make some kind of notes from this ... wehav ean IRC log;  we can write up a spec and on the wiki
<sladen> > talk to scott about MOTU bugs
<KyralRetsam> Next time you should hookup some kinda voice-recognition software for this thing :P
<sladen> > a poll for new packages 
<slomo> sladen: thanks for writing everything down :) you deserve a beer now ;)
<sladen> KyralRetsam: yes!
<KyralRetsam> who is scott again?
<siretart> http://people.ubuntu.com/~scott/ongoing-merge
<hub> keybuk
<sladen> > MOTU-mailing list
<sladen> > ubuntu-motu
<sladen> > here's a "quick" list of thigns that need to be merged, rather tha sched, it's a few hundre pages long and need to be looked at manually
* KyralRetsam adds "Get Voice Recongition Software for next BOF to save sladen's hands" to MOTUTodo
<sladen> > some upstream ,some new debian revision
<sladen> > so we have thto write the minutes andfrom the meeting
<sladen> > do we have a wiki page?
<sladen> > stick them ont he MOTU homapge
<sladen> > thien thank you for the meeting and wI think we will have some tlaks
<sladen> > what ware we doing tonight?
<sladen> > MOTU meeting minutes
<ajmitch> drinking BOF!
<\sh> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTUMeetingMinutes
<sladen> > I love smoart, it haas a problem to "solve all your problems"
<sladen> yeah!
<ajmitch> ok, meeting done, we can all go & drink now
<koke> ajmitch: now?
<zakame> hihi
<ajmitch> koke: ok, later
<ajmitch> still more BOFs to go
#ubuntu-meeting 2005-11-11
<Aragorn> hi all!
<highvoltage> hi
<Aragorn> whats up
<highvoltage> not much, no meeting here, afaict.
<Aragorn> but isnt there meeting channel?
* Aragorn join 'talkative' channel for talking..
<Aragorn> hi hrion
<Aragorn> join 'talkative' channel for talking
<highvoltage> #ubuntu is very 'talkative'
<Aragorn> i dont think so
<Aragorn> join 'talkative' channel for talking..
<bmonty_laptop> Aragorn: this is a channel for team meetings, there aren't many people hanging out here to talk, #ubuntu is your best bet
<Aragorn> join 'talkative' channel for talking..
<bmonty_laptop> sure, have fun!
<highvoltage> /join #ubuntu
<highvoltage> ^^^ type that for 'talkative' channel
#ubuntu-meeting 2005-11-13
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:robitaille] :  Agendas: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingAgendas | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/  | Logs: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/  | 8 Nov 14:00 UTC: Community Council | 16 Nov 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu
<bhuvan> just to double check, CCM is at 14:00utc ( 2:30hrs to go ) ?
<Seveas> bhuvan, 1:55 to go now :)
<bhuvan> ok, thankx
<jjesse> ooo i'm early for the meeting, this has to be a first
* highvoltage too
<zakame> wb Seveas :)
<zakame> wb otep 
<highvoltage> only 9 more minutes to meeting!
<otep> yo zak =D
<rob^> I'm here
<zakame> hi ealden 
<otep> yo ealden 
<ealden> hi zakame, otep 
<rob^> ooo my head hurts
<zakame> rob^: how come?
<rob^> its midnight here and I just woke up for the meeting
<zakame> oh
<rbelem> MarioMeyer_, GnuKemist 
<GnuKemist> rbelem, yup
<MarioMeyer_> yup
<rbelem> ;-)
<GnuKemist> rbelem, present
<GnuKemist> hehehe
<MarioMeyer_> here, boss
<rbelem> eheheeh
<GnuKemist> I think I need more cafeine
<rob^> GnuKemist, I hear you
<jjesse> more caffeine is always good
<GnuKemist> rob^, I heard... just woke up, huh?
<rob^> yup
* GnuKemist always keeps a bag of expresso beans covered in chocolate around
<GnuKemist> ;)
<jsgotangco> hello
<zakame> wb jsgotangco 
<GnuKemist> hi
<rbelem> there isno more cafeine here :'(
<Seveas> bad news
<Seveas> make isn't around
<Seveas> the others have a massive idle time
<highvoltage> hi jsgotangco 
* rob^ does something very dangerours, looking at svn repo whist still half asleep
<Seveas> s/make/sabdfl/*
<jsgotangco> wow
<zakame> ooh
<jsgotangco> that's bad news indeed
<GnuKemist> rob^, hehehe
* jsgotangco looks at agenda anyways
<Kamion> ok, we're just turning up here at UBZ
<fabbione> morning guys
<zakame> hello Kamion 
<Kamion> sabdfl just walked in, so give us a few minutes
<rob^> :)
<Seveas> ah nice
<zakame> yay!
<jsgotangco> understandable, its probably only 8am perhaps
<Seveas> mornin' Kamion 
<Belutz> hi all
<Kamion> 9am here
<Belutz> am i late?
<zakame> hi Belutz 
<GnuKemist> 9am here too
<Seveas> Belutz, no, the meeting has not started yet
<siretart> Kamion: no keynote today at ubz? ;)
<GnuKemist> am late for work
<GnuKemist> hehehe
<Belutz> 9pm in here 
<siretart> hey folks
<highvoltage> 16:00 here, fwiw
<Belutz> Seveas, i'm still in the agenda?
<GnuKemist> highvoltage, not bad... almost quitting time for you
<rbelem> hi siretart ;-)
<siretart> hi rbelem 
<jjesse> 9am here, hanging out at work :)
<GnuKemist> jjesse, work blocks EVERY port, so had to stay home
<GnuKemist> ;)
<GnuKemist> will be going to work later
<highvoltage> GnuKemist: yep :)
<jjesse> GnuKemist: in charge of work firewall :)
<GnuKemist> highvoltage, I still have the entire day to go through  =P
<GnuKemist> jjesse, niiiice
<rob^> heh
<Kamion> siretart: not today, no
<Seveas> jjesse, i missed the last meeting, were you approved?
<jjesse> Seveas: the last meeting i was at was the special one
<highvoltage> GnuKemist: going to LUG meeting after this, and those last a long time. so my day isn't quite over ;)
<jjesse> they talked about me at the very end and i was waiting on Kamion to process it
* jsgotangco rubberstamps jjesse 's approval
<jjesse> Seveas: i was approved but was pending Kamion 
<GnuKemist> highvoltage, no what you mean...  I used to organize the local LUG as well... wayyyy after hours
* zakame just grabbed a caffeine shot
<rob^> Seveas, am I still ok to go first? 
<Seveas> rob^, I'll try and push that :)
<GnuKemist> zakame, sure... rub it in, won't ya?  hehehe
<jsgotangco> no let's push rob^ till 16UTC! hehe 
<jsgotangco> *joke*
<rob^> grr
<zakame> GnuKemist: indeed :)
<rob^> :)
<zakame> jsgotangco: buwahahaha
<GnuKemist> hehe
<Kamion> jjesse: oh, right, let me sort that out nowish
<Belutz> hi jsgotangco :-)
<zakame> Belutz: are you the guy from .in ?
<jsgotangco> Belutz: salam :)
* GnuKemist gets to watch sportcenter while we wait  =)
<Belutz> zakame, i'm from .id
<Belutz> jsgotangco, salam :)
<highvoltage> anyone else having trouble accessing the wiki?
<zakame> Belutz: ah, yeah, my mistake :)
<Belutz> zakame, :-)
<Belutz> jsgotangco, how's your daugther?
<zakame> highvoltage: 'tis ok from here in .ph...
<jjesse> thanks Kamion, do you need anything from me?
<bhuvan> zame, i'm from .in!
<GnuKemist> highvoltage, a.o.k. here too
<zakame> bhuvan: yeah, I got mixed up :)
<bhuvan> ok
<zakame> wb hub 
<hub> hi
<Seveas> hi Hubert
<zakame> hmm 'tis 14:11
<Seveas> The Montreal folks are waking up :)
<jsgotangco> zakame: its ok we can wait a few more hours
<GnuKemist> !!!!
<highvoltage> zakame, GnuKemist: ok, thanks, strangely it works from the edubuntu wiki.
<GnuKemist> hehehe...  my boss will kick my ass
<Seveas> jsgotangco, no we cannot but some minutes is ok :)
<hub> Seveas: yah. I'm late, I apologize
<hub> I slept over
<zakame> jsgotangco: yeah, let's just rack up more karma at LP translating to tl :)
<Seveas> hub, you're early, the CC isn't here yet :)
<GnuKemist> highvoltage, np  =)
<hub> ah ok
<jsgotangco> zakame: sure let's do some blackhat karma harvesting in lp :)
<zakame> highvoltage: np :D
<highvoltage> Seveas: aren't you on the CC?
<Seveas> highvoltage, no
<Seveas> CC == mako,kamion,elmo,sabdfl
<jjesse> Kamion is here some place :)
<zakame> jsgotangco: buwahaha
<Seveas> he's waking up the others ;)
<Belutz> i'm eating my dinner first :)
<jjesse> dang the way this is going to work is that i will be traveling from office to another when this things starts
<bhuvan> :)
<Seveas> The CC really needs to do something about punctuality...
<bhuvan> we're already late by 17mins!
<jsgotangco> yeah let's start a junta
<highvoltage> if i knew i could have gone home and chatted from there :(
<sabdfl> morning all
<jsgotangco> lo sabdfl 
<sabdfl> apologies for being late
<highvoltage> morning
<zakame> jsgotangco: la free.net.ph junta
<GnuKemist> morning
<rob^> hi sabdfl 
<zakame> hi sabdfl :D
<Belutz> hi sabdfl 
<sabdfl> have we done the round of introductions?
<MarioMeyer_> morning
<zakame> nope
<Seveas> no
<highvoltage> nope
<Seveas> you're the only CC member around currently
<sabdfl> ok, introductions please, for the record
* sabdfl => MarkShuttleworth
* Seveas -eq Dennis Kaarsemaker
* highvoltage => JonathanCarter
* GnuKemist Og Maciel
* jsgotangco => JeromeGotangco
* rob^ - Robert Stoffers
* smurf is Matthias Urlichs
* zakame => ZakElep
* vuntz_ => Vincent Untz
* MarioMeyer_ => MarioMeyer
* Belutz == AndiDarmawan
* siretart is Reinhard Tartler
<jjesse> *jjesse = jonathan jesse
<sabdfl> kamion is looking for elmo, after finding me ;-)
* Riddell is Jonathan Riddell
<Seveas> sabdfl, cool :)
* rbelem rbelem == Rodrigo Belem
* hunger_ is Tobias Hunger
* fabbione is FabioMassimoDiNitto
<Seveas> sabdfl, why not let mom hunt elmo down ;)
* hub is HubertFiguiere
<siretart> Seveas: you really don't want to be hunted by elmo ;)
<zoe> zoe is Hiroyuki Ikezoe
<jjesse> isn't elmo hunting wabbits?
<sabdfl> elmo's on his way, 5 minutes
<bhuvan> bhuvan -> Bhuvaneswaran
<zakame> jjesse: buwahahah
<GnuKemist> jjesse, hehe
<sabdfl> jjesse: good news, +1 on your membership, based on feedback from riddell on your doc leadership
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jjesse> sabdfl: thank you
<jsgotangco> +1
<Seveas> so jjesse is through now?
<zakame> jjesse: w00t!
<jsgotangco> actually he's the kubuntu doc hero for breezy
<sabdfl> yes, elmo agreed based on riddell's feedback too
<Seveas> jjesse, congratz!
<sabdfl> so, welcome aboard, jjesse
<hunger_> jjesse: Gratulation!
<jjesse> thank you very much sabdfl 
<GnuKemist> jjesse, congratz!!!
<sabdfl> i haven't heard of further progress on the ubuntu forums bits
<Kamion> I think I've processed all the pending folks in LP now
<sabdfl> is anyone here to discuss that?
<Seveas> sabdfl, can we please start off (when elmo and Kamion arrive) with Robert Stoffers (rob^), he'll have to leave soon
<zakame> jjesse: cheers!
<rob^> Seveas, thanks
<jjesse> do i get to know the secret handshake now?
<Kamion> elmo was swapping APs around last I heard, I'll try again in a sec
<zakame> Kamion: thanks :)
<Kamion> Seveas: (am I invisible?)
<Kamion>  Status of RSS implementation for [WWW]  RecentChanges ([WWW]  Bhuvan)
<Seveas> Kamion, I was typing that before your message arrived :)
<bhuvan> yeah
<Kamion> what's that about?
<bhuvan> i wish to know why we have not included link for rss feeds in our RecentChanges page yet
<sabdfl> bhuvan: does moin do that easily?
<bhuvan> even though rss feed is supported in our moinmoin
<sabdfl> seems easy enough to arrange
<jsgotangco> wow
<rob^> nice
<sabdfl> has there been any suggestion from elmo or other admins that there is a rationale against it?
<sabdfl> performance?
<Kamion> if you happen to know the configuration rune, that would probably speed things up
<jjesse> wasn't performance the reason that subscriptions were temp. disabled?
<jsgotangco> well that was for during UBZ really
<Kamion> jjesse: the wiki was DOSing launchpad - that's fixed now
<Seveas> lol :)
<Kamion> spiv made the code less stupid
<rob^> heh
<Seveas> Has the wild elmo been spotted already?
<sabdfl> yes, he just needed to grab his laptop
<Seveas> cool
<zoe> CC has begun?
<sabdfl> we can ask him when he gets here
<sabdfl> zoe: yes
<bhuvan> w.u.c/RecentChanges?action=rss_rc
<Kamion> bhuvan: so it's done already?
<zoe> sabdfl: thanks
<Kamion> oh, you mean it just needs a link on the RecentChanges page?
<sabdfl> bhuvan: do you jjust want a link?
<elmo> sorry, here
<sabdfl> hi elmo
<jsgotangco> maybe just a shout out that its available?
<bhuvan> yeah
<zakame> hi elmo 
<Seveas> bhuvan, that thing fails to display in liferea
<jsgotangco> ohhh pretty neat i will use this in thunderbird then
<hub> hi elmo
<Kamion> I'm sure it's trivial; Bugzilla has a Websites component that you can file this sort of bug on in future
<bhuvan> but, sage does it perfect
<Kamion> (and I guess Malone will gain that soon enough if it doesn't have it already)
<Seveas> hi elmo
<Seveas> so we can start :)
<sabdfl> yes we can
<zakame> wow this rss is good
<GnuKemist> bhuvan, MarioMeyer_ is very good at making rss comply with standards
<bhuvan> we can include the link and include the feed url in link html tag in RecentChanges page, so orange square box appears in right corner in ff
<Kamion> let's move on, file a bug if it's not something elmo can do right away
<Kamion> #
<Kamion> Proposal for a new NewMemberProcess (DennisKaarsemaker)
<Kamion> #
<Kamion> Proposal that community council substructures be able to grant membership, documented in GrantingMembership (MarkShuttleworth)
<jsgotangco> ok i guess this isn't CC-centric now at the moment
<Kamion> I guess those two are basically the same thing
<Seveas> Kamion, please treat rob^ first
<Seveas> he'll have to leave soon
<Kamion> I see
<sabdfl> let's handle rob^ first
<jsgotangco> yes its 12am on his side
<rob^> thanks :)
<sabdfl> rob^: what's your launchpad username?
<Kamion> rob^ == RobertStoffers?
<rob^> sabdfl, RobertStoffers
<sabdfl> that's wikiname
<sabdfl> launchpad.net/people/ ?
<Kamion> robbieboy
<rob^> Robert Stoffers
<jsgotangco> he's the Ubuntu 5,10 Starter Guide lead author so +1 from me
<Seveas> rob^, care to do the 3-line intro
<rob^> and robbieboy
<rob^> Well, I've been working on the Ubuntu Starter Guide as the main author/maintainer for about 4 months or more now
<sabdfl> rob^: can you tell me a little about yelp, docbook, and the ubuntu/kubuntu doc story?
<rob^> sabdfl, what about it?
<jsgotangco> rob^: probably about the profiling stuff
<rob^> we initially intended to ship html for our docs
<rob^> but due to translation problems we had a mad rush just before breezy release to get the xml working properly in yelp
<jsgotangco> but the translations break if shipped in html
<Seveas> mad rush is sort of an understatement
<Seveas> it's been a lot of work for you
<rob^> I was up until 3am or so for almost a week straight getting it done on time
<jsgotangco> Seveas: it was pretty chaotic believe me
<jjesse> it was chaotic for everyone at the end
<jjesse> in the doc team
<jjesse> kubuntu included
<jsgotangco> even the translations
<rob^> yes
<jsgotangco> a few weeks before release, i told jjesse it turned out he was the only one doing kubuntu
<rob^> we had a few issues with the .po files also
<Seveas> what are the plans for dapper?
<jsgotangco> at the moment, we have bugzilla bugs filed on our starter guide but most of them will be done by dapper
<rob^> Seveas, well we are splitting the desktop guide into a server and desktop versions
<jjesse> for kubuntu docs see http://wiki.ubuntu.com/KubuntuDocs
<jsgotangco> at the moment, people involved are doing stuff refelected in DocteamProjects
<rob^> I'm still working on the desktop guide, and also contributing to the server guide
<Kamion> hopefully some of the freeze changes in DapperReleaseProcess should help you guys out
<jsgotangco> we'd like the QuickTour to move to the marketing team, but they seem to be working in their own ivory tower
<Seveas> hopefully people will respect the freezes....
<rob^> see DesktopGuide and ServerGuide on the wiki for info about them
<jsgotangco> and bhuvan is currently submitting a lot of diffs and patches
<rob^> yep
<bhuvan> jsgotangco, rob^: thankx!
<Seveas> sounds like a good resume to me
<rob^> I've also been working on the wiki a fair bit
<Kamion> Seveas: with a long-term-supported release coming up, we'll probably be fairly hard-arsed
<Seveas> Kamion, great
<Kamion> but we'll have to see how it goes
<jsgotangco> yes we'll be pretty tight for dapper
<jsgotangco> we've learned a lot in breezy
<rob^> yes, the dapper guides will be special
<rob^> jsgotangco, yes, an understatement
<jsgotangco> actually a ton of mistakes
<zakame> jsgotangco: indeed
<jsgotangco> but we have bugzilla for mistakes
<jsgotangco> heh
<Seveas> shall we not drift off into an ubuntu-doc discussion
<jsgotangco> ok
<rob^> I also currently receive all the documentation-related bugs on bugzilla
<Seveas> rob^, do you do other things beside the docteam?
<Kamion> ok, I'm happy with rob^, the starter guide (FAQ guide now, I guess) is one of the core pieces of doc we present
<sabdfl> ok, +1 from me on rob on the basis of a long contribution to the doc project
<jsgotangco> +100 for rob^ definitely
<rob^> I also help out on IRC a bit
<Seveas> cool, that's 2/3 :)
<elmo> ack
<Kamion> elmo?
<sabdfl> rob^: later i'd like to figure out how we do translated docs that work across ubuntu, kubuntu, xubuntu etc
<Kamion> ok
<sabdfl> done
<Seveas> rob^, welcome aboard and goodnight :)
<sabdfl> welcome aboard
<rob^> sabdfl, thanks :)
<GnuKemist> rob^, congratz!
<sabdfl> let's handled Seveas' proposal and mine
<zakame> rob^: cheers! :D
<jsgotangco> sabdfl: rosetta? ok another meeting agenda for docteam in 2 weeks i guess
<GnuKemist> rob^, and keep them docs coming too  =)
<highvoltage> bye rob^ 
<hub> bye rob^
<rob^> thanks all, good night
<GnuKemist> night
<jbailey> rob^: Grats =)
<zakame> bye rob^ 
<Seveas> ok, on the agenda now: changing the membership process
<Seveas> both sabdfl and me had some ideas 
<Seveas> Comments please :)
<Kamion> I very much like the pre-meeting interview thing from Seveas' proposal
<Kamion> I'm not sure how much filtering the launchpad team would help; at present we keep that up to date but it doesn't really matter if it's got extra junk in it
<sabdfl> also, +1 on cleaning out the proposed membership lists
<Kamion> (for now)
<Seveas> Kamion, at least a one-yime cleanout should be done
<jsgotangco> the lp team acts as filter or qa of sorts?
<Seveas> if you then set the team to completely restricted, only the admins can add users to even proposed members
<smurf> Kamion: so you think sabdfl's Option C would be best?
<highvoltage> jsgotangco: good thing we're raking up the karma then ;)
<zakame> or a la NM front desk
<Kamion> Seveas: apparently we don't have a proper expiration mechanism on the members list yet; you can only stamp DECLINED on it in big red letters
<elmo> if we do pre-meeting interview, I'd like some kind of feedback to the CC on who got bounced at the pre-meeting interview
<sabdfl> i think my proposal is an expansion on seveas' idea of pre-meeting interviews
<Kamion> smurf: haven't got that far yet
<Seveas> sabdfl, I see proposol C of yours as just that indeed
<Seveas> great to see that great minds still think alike ;)
<\sh> hmmm...
<Kamion> Seveas: I'm not sure we want to restrict the team that far; there's no problem with having proposed members there, it just needs to be cleaned up a bit once we have an expiry mechanism
<sabdfl> fools still not differing much, either
<smurf> Giving membership responsibility to sub-groups would be a rather large step, I don't think we should go that far that fast
<Seveas> hehe
<jsgotangco> what does it take to be constituent community?
<sabdfl> jsgotangco: a reasonable argument
<Seveas> smurf, +1
<\sh> reading sabdfl proposal, means, that e.g. dholbach and ogra can approve memberships because one person has done a lot of motu work?
<Kamion> \sh: there are multiple alternatives presented there
<sabdfl> \sh: depends on which option we go with
<jsgotangco> anyone can make an lp team at the moment
<juliux> hi all
<sabdfl> jsgotangco: but not all teams would be recognised as being part of ubuntumembers
<highvoltage> hi juliux 
<\sh> sabdfl: I just had an eye on your bold characters :)
<Kamion> having read it now, sabdfl and I talked a bit about his proposal the other night and I understood it as basically option C
<sabdfl> a, b and c are just different implementations
<Kamion> they're rather different policy
<sabdfl> with different consequences in terms of notification and awareness
<Kamion> delegation versus nomination
<sabdfl> at the one end of the spectrum, it's real delegation with no necessary notification
<vuntz_> I think C is probably a good first step
<sabdfl> on the other, the approval is still channelled through the CC
<sabdfl> option C would still speed things up substantially
<jsgotangco> yes
<zakame> yes, C is good
<sabdfl> we would get an email from the "team leads" saying "these people are nominated, with our approval"
<Seveas> option C would imho be the best balance between speedup and delegation
<\sh> option C looks good...but it means, that the responsible people for the teams are always up to date with new people doing stuff for the teams
<Kamion> my feeling is that I'd like to start with C; if it turns out that there are people we completely trust in all respects, then there would be nothing particular preventing us from fully delegating to them
<sabdfl> i suspect that, as the project grows, we will be forced to move to A or B in time, but C is my preferred position right now
<sabdfl> elmo: ?
<jsgotangco> C is a good transition phase for the CC itself
<Kamion> I wouldn't want to go to delegation immediately without seeing how people act
<Kamion> I also don't want to view C as a transition phase necessarily - it depends how things go
<\sh> Kamion: the problem is not the trust in this matter...the problem is that the teamleads have to be up2date
<Kamion> \sh: it's both
<elmo> I can live with C, if that's what the rest of the CC wants to do, but I'd nack anything but C
<sabdfl> \sh: the team leads are far more likely to be up to date than the CC can get in a meeting
<elmo> (right now)
<Kamion> \sh: it's also easier for team leads to be up to date than it is for the CC to be up to date
<smurf> +1 on C for now
* jsgotangco too
<zakame> indeed, C would also allow Seveas ' pre-meeting interviews
<Seveas> zakame, it would require that
<Kamion> guys, votes are of CC members :)
<Seveas> in order to speed up the CC meetings
<bhuvan> it's their opinion though :)
<\sh> sabdfl: which means, only dholbach has to be up2date...cause ogra is occupied with edubuntu
<Kamion> it actually makes it hard to grep logs if people randomly say "+1"
<\sh> sabdfl: regarding MOTU team
<Kamion> for me when looking for membership stuff to process
<sabdfl> we'll prefix decisions with DECISION
<Seveas> Kamion, as of last meeting I'm making summaries
<sabdfl> ok, i think we have a decision on GrantingMembership
<Seveas> I'll post one of this meeting to ubuntu-devel later today
<sabdfl> which teams are we happy to empower like this?
<sabdfl> tech board, definitely
<Kamion> the pre-meeting interview proposal looks like a weaker version of option C to me, yes
<jsgotangco> us too at -doc i'd say
<sabdfl> motu, definitely, for membership
<elmo> err, who's motu?
<\sh> sabdfl: I disagree for MOTU...but this has to be discussed
<Kamion> we always viewed maintainership as a subset of membership, so it makes clear sense for the TB to be able to nominate members
<elmo> the whole team, or the actual leadership?
<Kamion> at the very least I want pre-meeting interviews for MOTU
<sabdfl> elmo: leadership
<elmo> is that defined anywhere/how?
<\sh> elmo: dholbach and ogra is the lead
<Seveas> hmm, did my connection die or is everyone suddenly silent?
<jsgotangco> heh
<GnuKemist> ;)
<Belutz> i think it's suddenly silent
<\sh> a glitch in the matrix
<Kamion> one sec already
<highvoltage> Seveas: the latter, i thinkg
<Seveas> Kamion, no rush, I really thought my connection dropped
<Kamion> sabdfl brought up the point that pre-meeting interviews involve more running around trying to organise meetings than nominations do
<zakame> \sh: hih
<Kamion> Seveas: that's what /ping's for
<GnuKemist> I'd like to read somewhere what you are talking about... all I see is option this... option that...  ;)
<Kamion> GnuKemist: links from the agenda
<\sh> GnuKemist: wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda
<Seveas> Kamion, but it's no running around for the CC
<GnuKemist> Kamion, am checking but didn't see anything there
<highvoltage> GnuKemist: http://wiki.edubuntu.org/NewMemberProcess
<GnuKemist> \sh, thanx...  =)  am really poking around
<\sh> GnuKemist: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NewMemberProcess and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/GrantingMembership
<GnuKemist> all, sorry to interrupt the flow
<Kamion> Seveas: nominations mean that we can get a list of "the tech board propose the following candidates for membership: ..." and we say "any objections? no? done" and do the whole lot in batch mode
<sabdfl> it's much cleaner just to have nominations
<Kamion> depending on how much we know and trust the relevant group
<sabdfl> the teams themselves can orgnaise the nomination process based on what works for them
<jsgotangco> hiya silbs 
<Seveas> Wouldn't that close up the membership process a bit too much?
<Kamion> Seveas: people can still turn up directly if they don't fit into the established teams (iho)
<Kamion> er, imho
<sabdfl> agreed
<sabdfl> so, to summarise
<Kamion> it will still save us time relative to the current procedure
<Belutz> what if the team leader is not very active?
<Kamion> Belutz: then that's a separate problem which must be resolved
<Seveas> then ther should be enough teams leaders (loco, motu, tb) to catch most of them
<sabdfl> the proposal is that we would ask for nominations for membership from the leadership of specific groups
<\sh> Belutz: <sabdfl> the teams themselves can orgnaise the nomination process based on what works for them
<Kamion> Seveas: I repeat, it will still save us time relative to what we have now, even if it's not complete
<Seveas> and for the others the pre-meeting interviews should be useful
<sabdfl> we would only do this where we felt the leadership had a fair and accurate relationship with their community
<Belutz> hmmm ok
<Kamion> we can start small and refine this over time
<sabdfl> right now, we would definitely do this for the tech board
<sabdfl> this would, in effect, formalise something that has been happening since pre-hoary days
<sabdfl> when we allowed the TB to grant both upload and membership
<sabdfl> other candidate groups would include the forums leadership, and the doc team, artwork team, and motu
<sabdfl> however
<highvoltage> how large is the new membership cantidate backlog?
<sabdfl> we would only delegate if we had confidence in the impartiality and stability of the leadership of the group
<sabdfl> the current forums uncertainty would preclude delegtion to them just yet
<Kamion> highvoltage: 11 left on today's agenda
<highvoltage> Kamion: ok, thanks.
<Seveas> when will this be implemented?
<Kamion> Seveas: at some point *after* it's approved ;-)
<Kamion> (if/when)
<Seveas> hehe
<Seveas> then I think we should start voting
<sabdfl> ok, let's start from the beginning.
<sabdfl> CC, up or down on Option C of GrantingMembership
<sabdfl> +1
<Kamion> +1
<elmo> ack
<sabdfl> done
<Seveas> ok cool
<sabdfl> now, up or down on Tech Board for nominations
<sabdfl> +1
<Kamion> clearly +1
<elmo> ack
<Seveas> And for the MOTU?
<bhuvan> currently we start with tech-board, how about other teams during transition ?
<Kamion> MOTU is a huge group; I'd like to vote on specific names
<\sh> nope...motu should nominate first
<sabdfl> we don't have formal leadership of MOTU
<sabdfl> we could propose a team of three now, or let them come back to us with proposals
<sabdfl> same for artwork, doc, and ultimately forums
<Seveas> I like the latter proposal
<\sh> actually most of the motus are not here...or are sleeping their jetlag away
<Seveas> how about IRC/mailing list (the support crew)?
<sabdfl> so let's give them the opportunity to talk about this
<\sh> so the latter is the best we have
<sabdfl> ok, so for the next CC meeting, we'll hear proposals for leadership teams on those groups
<jsgotangco> its pretty useful for -doc as we have our own "grant access" stuff
<sabdfl> i'll mail devel-announce
<siretart> I think MOTUS should rediscuss this issue the next MOTU Meeting
<Kamion> ok, fine by me
<sabdfl> ok, thanks everybody, i think this is a good step
<sabdfl> next up?
<Seveas> pseudoforks - mpathy
<Seveas> mpathy is not here
<Kamion> what are pseudoforks?
<Seveas> and I have no clue on what he means :)
<sabdfl> anybody know what that's about?
<sabdfl> any other business?
<sabdfl> ok. loco teams
<jsgotangco> maybe he meant stuff like xubuntu?
<Seveas> rolando blanco
<Seveas> Mauricio Hernandez
<Seveas> and Jun Kobayashi
<smurf> Is any of you here?
<jkbys> I'm Jun Kobayashi
<smurf> (you == those three ;-)
<smurf> So, can you tell us a bit about your team and your activities?
<jkbys> I have 3 line intro about Japanese Team and me. Can I paste?
<smurf> sure
<sabdfl> yes please
<jkbys> I'm Jun Kobayashi from the Ubuntu Japanese team. I'm admin of Japanese Ubuntu website, http://www.ubuntulinux.jp. I distribute install, live and coLinux Ubuntu image, customized for Japanese language there. Since my image supports Input method for Japanese by default, Japanese normal user can use Japanese Ubuntu desktop environment in a breeze.
<jkbys> I also wrote two artcles related Ubuntu for Japanese magazines. I wrote about Ubuntu remote desktop system with FreeNX for "UNIX USER" last month, and wrote introduction to Ubuntu for "Nikkei Linux", sold on next month.
<jkbys> My vision for Ubuntu: I want to work for making Ubuntu major OS in Japan. For that purpose, I'll continue Japanese Team activity, commit for official Ubuntu to better support for multibyte language, and write articles.
<jkbys> that's all, sorry for my poor English.
<smurf> jkbys: no problem, we've had worse ;-)
<GnuKemist> jkbys, that was very nice
<Seveas> jkbys, have you been following the SCIM discussions on ubuntu-devel?
<jsgotangco> pretty good english
<smurf> jkbys: how large is your team?
<jkbys> Seveas: yes
<zoe> smurf: I'm a member of th team
<jkbys> smurf: 3 active members
<zoe> oops. I mean the team 
<jsgotangco> don't you guys did a jp-specific breezy?
<jsgotangco> s/don't/didn't
<smurf> jkbys: do you have an IRC channel or a mailing list?
<Seveas> jsgotangco, he just said that
<jsgotangco> oh
<smurf> (it's rather unusual for a team not to ;-)
<jsgotangco> ok they also contributed the rather cute ubuntu os-tan
<zakame> jsgotangco: is that the one clair had on? :)
<jkbys> smurf: I have ubuntu-ja mailing list.
<jsgotangco> zakame: yes
<sabdfl> jkbys: i'm really interested in your work
<smurf> jkbys: Cool, please add that to your LoCoTeamList entry
<sabdfl> can you suggesting anything we can do to help you?
<jsgotangco> jkbys: also the tradeshow stuff you did a while
<jkbys> ok, i'll add
<Seveas> Any other stuff to tell?
<Seveas> Or ask?
<sabdfl> jkbys: can you think of anything we could change in ubuntu that would make it easier for you?
<zakame> wb desrt , hunger 
* desrt has never been here before :)
<vuntz_> hi desrt
<desrt> greets.
<Seveas> jkbys?
<desrt> is there some sort of a community council meeting in progress?
<rbelem> sabdfl: i have one ;-)
<Seveas> desrt, yes
<jsgotangco> desrt: yes please see topic :)
<zakame> jkbys: ping
<Seveas> ok, jkbys does not answer
<jkbys> It's hard to describe in English for me, sorry
<Seveas> ah
<sabdfl> jkbys: ok, feel free to email me directly if you have thoughts and its easier in email
<sabdfl> mark@ubuntu.com
<jkbys> we are happy if ubuntu supports SCIM by default
<GnuKemist> jkbys, try this and paste it back  http://www.google.com/language_tools
<sabdfl> i'm very keen to help grow ubuntu in japan
<jsgotangco> jkbys: how was Kansai Open Source?
<sabdfl> we only had 70 shipit requests
<jkbys> sabdfl: thanks
<sabdfl> about the same as iceland :-)
<jsgotangco> lol
<sabdfl> compared to 16,000 in South Africa
<rbelem> jkbys: i know how hard this is
<GnuKemist> jkbys, use that site to translate your thoughts and paste back
<sabdfl> so i am interested in how we can help you raise awareness
<jkbys> jsgotangco: Many people have interest in ubuntu, and got our CD
<highvoltage> i think at least half of those 16 000 came from members in my local lug :)
<sabdfl> jkbys: would you like to see an official ubuntu-for-japan?
<jkbys> GnuKemist: thank, ill try
<jsgotangco> sabdfl: japan is pretty big, probably make jkbys ubuntu-jp breezy pressed?
<sabdfl> jsgotangco: that's an option. if jkbys emails me we can discuss this further
<sabdfl> let's move on, any more loco teams?
<Seveas> no, they did not show up
<Seveas> First member on the list: Maurico Hernandez
<jkbys> sabdfl: i'd like make Official Japanese Ubuntu team.
<Seveas> Mauricio is not here?
<Seveas> Og Maciel, are you here?
<GnuKemist> here
* GnuKemist is Og Maciel
<smurf> jkbys: you are now
<sabdfl> jkbys: yes, i would support an official japanese ubuntu team
<rbelem> GnuKemist: good luck
<rbelem> ;-)
<GnuKemist> rbelem, thanx
<GnuKemist> ;)
<sabdfl> GnuKemist: go ahead, three-line-summary
<Seveas> GnuKemist, great, then after jkbys and sabdfl sort it out, you're up
<jkbys> sabdfl: thanks
<GnuKemist> sabdfl, first of all, I want to say that I strongly agree with Ubuntu:  "humanity to others"
<jkbys> jsgotangco: yes, i make ubuntu-ja preseed file.
<GnuKemist> I have always believed that there is a reason why we are here
<GnuKemist> so I have always tried to make myself usefull
<GnuKemist> for the last 5-6 years I've been a Linux advocate
<GnuKemist> even evangelist if you will
<GnuKemist> but didn't really take the bigger step to make myself more visible
<GnuKemist> and therefore reach more people
<sabdfl> GnuKemist: you have made a great contribution to translations. how did you come to be both in brazil linux, and new jersey groups?
<GnuKemist> sabdfl, thank you..  I live in New Jersey
<GnuKemist> sabdfl, but born and raised in Brazil
<GnuKemist> it was thanks to the incentive of \sh that I joined the Brazilian Loco
<GnuKemist> GnuKemist, it felt like I was reborn
<\sh> GnuKemist: thx
<GnuKemist> GnuKemist, I started luring people to participate more
<GnuKemist> \sh, it is true!  ;)
<GnuKemist> to translate
<Seveas> bbl
<GnuKemist> and started helping out at the channel too
<GnuKemist> then we launched the Planet
<GnuKemist> and am now talking with someone to launch Planet Peru
<rbelem> mailling list too
<Kamion> I'm interested that you're both an Oracle developer and a MySQL user group guy :)
<GnuKemist> I intend to drag MarioMeyer_  with me in this one
<highvoltage> i might be unavailable for a minute or so. need to switch to gprs network.
<GnuKemist> Kamion, hehehe
<Kamion> but as sabdfl says you've contributed lots to pt_BR translations, so I'm happy
<GnuKemist> GnuKemist, actually, MarioMeyer_ has been a source of inspiration too
<Kamion> (+1)
<GnuKemist> Kamion, thanx  =)
<GnuKemist> GnuKemist, MarioMeyer_ is the sort of guy who is ready for action
<GnuKemist> so he pushes me and I push him
<GnuKemist> hehehe
<MarioMeyer_> lol
<GnuKemist> am going to Brazil this Friday
<GnuKemist> ready to evangelize
<GnuKemist> =)
<rbelem> sabdfl: they give a new life to ubuntu brazil
<GnuKemist> even at my MySQL LUG I bring CDs I burn the night before
<GnuKemist> rbelem, thanx  ;)
<GnuKemist> sabdfl, and I REALLY want to take more of a hands on role with Ubuntu
<\sh> GnuKemist: well...it's only you...you did something for the community and ubuntu...so don't thank me or others thank yourself :)
<GnuKemist> sabdfl, not only Brazil Ubuntu but Humanity
<Seveas> GnuKemist, sounds all nice
<GnuKemist> \sh very kind words...  ;)
<sabdfl> +1 from me for GnuKemist, based on advocacy and translation
<GnuKemist> Seveas, thank you...  I keep a Brazilian and English blog so I can reach more people
<GnuKemist> sabdfl, thank you
<GnuKemist> even if I don't get accepted, I am here for the long haul
<GnuKemist> can't get rid of me
<GnuKemist> hehe
<Seveas> GnuKemist, you're neasrly there, only elmo needs to be convinced :)
<GnuKemist> Seveas, hehe...  haven't met him yet...  just heard of...  
<elmo> ack
<Seveas> GnuKemist, welcome aboard!
<GnuKemist> Seveas, wow
<rbelem> GnuKemist: wb ;-)
<GnuKemist> thank you all
<zakame> GnuKemist: cheers! :D
<MarioMeyer_> congrats, man...
<\sh> GnuKemist: welcome to the real world...and believe me when I say...elmo is a nice guy :)
<GnuKemist> I promisse to live up to the title
<dholbach> GnuKemist: well done :)
<Seveas> Fabian Rodrigues does not seem to be here
<GnuKemist> dholbach, thank you
<GnuKemist> \sh looking forward to meeting you one day
<Seveas> FRNSantos neither (plus he has NO information on his wikipage)
<jsgotangco> nice
<GnuKemist> zakame, got some coffee for me now?  ;)
<Seveas> Next up: Andi Darmawan (Belutz)
<mpathy> Hi there
<Seveas> mpathy, welcome
* mpathy shuts up :)
<\sh> GnuKemist: well...i'm not the guy u want to meet :)
<Belutz> should i intoduce myself now?
<jsgotangco> Belutz: go for it
<Seveas> Belutz, that would help :)
<zakame> GnuKemist: caffeine coming up :D
<Belutz> My name is Andi Darmawan. Currently I live in Jakarta, Indonesia. I only been using ubuntu from august 2005. I currently translating ubuntu and the apps in rosetta and setting up an ubuntu repositories mirror in government server (it's done but waiting for approval and dns setting). And i'm also one of the moderator for ubuntu-id@l.u.c and maintainin http://www.ubuntu.or.id And recently I joined with GNOME Indonesian Translator team.
<sabdfl> mpathy: we are handling member candidates, will come to your proposal later
<GnuKemist> \sh hehehe...  at least thank you in person for being my "muse" 
<Belutz> sorry for my poor english
<hub> re Fabian Rodrigues, he is not on the other channel either.
<sabdfl> Belutz: wiki and launchpad url's?
<Belutz> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AndiDarmawan
<Belutz> http://launchpad.net/people/belutz
<Seveas> ubuntu.or.id errors out (internal server error)
<mpathy> sabdfl: okay, I am a work, how long will it take?
<Belutz> Seveas, yup, because we're currentyly using IGOS server, and i'm not the server maintaner
<sabdfl> mpathy: ping back in   20 mins
<Belutz> by the way, IGOS is Indonesia Goes Open Source
<sabdfl> +1 from me on Belutz, on the back of translation activity over time, and loco work in Indonesia
<Seveas> Belutz, any others from .id who can vouch for you in here?
<mpathy> sabdfl: roger-roger ;)
<jsgotangco> did faqguide in id got in breezy?
<jsgotangco> oh not yet
<Belutz> Seveas, i rarely see someone from .id around here
<Belutz> I always be a lonely guy in #ubuntu-id
<Belutz> the repositories mirror will be located in this server http://kresna.ristek.go.id
<jsgotangco> he's been hanging out in -doc lately, but mostly translation work in rosetta
<Belutz> sabdfl, thanks :-)
<sabdfl> Belutz: are there local LUG's in your area?
<zakame> Belutz: awww
<Kamion> re setting up a mirror, what's the bandwidth situation like in .id?
<Belutz> sabdfl, yes, but apparently they not too active anymore
<Kamion> ping Karl Tilbury (Znarl) with details once you have that set up, and if it's suitable it can be put into the CC.archive.ubuntu.com set
<Belutz> sabdfl, i'm still trying to get in touch with the LUG (it's called KPLI in here) members
<hub> brb in a couple of min.
<jsgotangco> the government of indonesia have this sort of deal with Sun to use JDS in their gov't agencies, i've read before....
<Belutz> Kamion, the bandwidth is not too good in Indonesia, but since we had IIX (Indonesia Internet Exchange) it's much faster to download from local Internet
<Kamion> ah, one of those countries
<sabdfl> so a mirror would be very useful for everyone
<Kamion> +1 on Belutz, anyhow
<sabdfl> elmo: ?
<sabdfl> AWTY?
<elmo> no ice cream for you
<Belutz> currently the most updated mirror is already listed in w.u.c/Archives
<elmo> ack
<sabdfl> ok, Belutz, welcome aboard
<Belutz> wow
<Belutz> thanks :-)
<Seveas> Belutz, congratz
<jsgotangco> Belutz: yay!!!!
<Belutz> I;m excited
<vuntz_> welcome Belutz
<GnuKemist> Belutz, congratz!!!
<sabdfl> it would be great if you could get the loco / lug scene active again
<Belutz> thanks all
<Belutz> sabdfl, i'll do that
<Seveas> Ryan Lortie - around?
<jsgotangco> that should spur further ubuntu prominence in id
<Kamion> sabdfl and I already talked to Ryan Lortie here at UBZ
<GnuKemist> jsgotangco,  agreed
<dholbach> Seveas: that's desrt
<vuntz_> Seveas: his nick is desrt
<hub> Seveas: Ryan was there
<Belutz> and i would be great if in the ubuntu installer, we could choose the mirror right away
<zakame> Belutz: cheers! :D
<sabdfl> +1 on desrt for membership from me
<Kamion> Belutz: it defaults to id.archive.ubuntu.com, so if you're in that rotation then it will be correct by default
<Belutz> Kamion, ok
<sabdfl> hoping he will work with the MOTU and become an uploader too, then join main
<Belutz> zakame, :-)
<Seveas> sabdfl, now you see why pre-meeting interviews can be useful ;)
<Kamion> I already approved Ryan in Launchpad's ubuntumembers group based on the conversation we had; he's one of gnome-applets upstream and has a lot of thoughts on power management
<Seveas> ok, next up is then hub
<dholbach> sabdfl: i'll do all i can to get him into working with the team :)
<hub> here
* hub is Hubert Figuiere
<Kamion> any thoughts from MOTU on hub?
<dholbach> +1 from me.. he's very active in getting ubuntu up to scratch digital photography wise and his packaging skills evolved over 3 months now
<sabdfl> it was great to have hub here at UBZ
<dholbach> i'm very happy with him, since he's active and visible in the team
<sabdfl> hub: are you upstream abiword?
<hub> sabdfl: yep
<hub> sabdfl: and gphoto as well
<sabdfl> hub: has there been much discussion of gobby-like features in it?
<hub> sabdfl: for 2.6 we plan to work on AbiCollab. it has been scratched a bit already
<hub> sabdfl: cause some issues :-/
* jsgotangco recently used abiword again
<highvoltage> abiword is nice.
<hub> s/cause/causing/
<hub> should be terrific on the Nokia :-)
<jsgotangco> i've heard...
<dholbach> do any other MOTUs have an opinion on hub and his involvement in the MOTU world?
<sabdfl> hub: where do you think you will make a big impact in the ubuntu community?
<sabdfl> what would you like to see us doing with ubuntu?
<hub> sabdfl: it will be a plugin, but we need to provide support in the core code-base. Definitely on the todo list, martin is really motivated
<jsgotangco> lp photo team sure looks interesting
<hub> sabdfl: I started packaging some tools for digital photography in Ubuntu mostly because applications for this specific field are not really up to what we would expect.
<hub> sabdfl: lot of bit everywhere, and in the mean time if we could have them easily installable, that would be a first start
<sabdfl> ok, +1 from me on hub
<hub> I was surprised to see that one of the most useful panorama stitching app was not packaged. so I did
<hub> still on REVU :-/
* Kamion undistracts himself from bzr talk. +1 on hub
<dholbach> hub: i'll get back to revuing, promise
<zakame> dholbach: yeah, a LOT of pkgs need it :0
<zakame> s#0#)#
<hub> dholbach: you have 8 weeks ;-)
<elmo> ack
<Seveas> welcome aboard hub!
<hub> thanks
<GnuKemist> hub, congrats!
<Seveas> Jonathan Carter
<dholbach> hub:excellent
<zakame> hub: cheers! :D
<Seveas> are you there?
<highvoltage> hi Seveas.
<highvoltage> yes, I am.
<vuntz_> hub: congrats
* jsgotangco evil grin
<highvoltage> Hi. My name is Jonathan Carter. I work on the http://www.tuxlabs.org.za project for a dayjob (which I love). After hours, I get involved on the Ubuntu side. Currently, I'm attempting to translate everything into Afrikaans (local language). I also created some scripts earlier this year that allowed us to install ubuntu into schools (script added LTSP, KDE Edu, tux4kids, and our content, among other things), which meant that we could install this i
<Belutz> hub, congrats
<highvoltage> I also work on the Edubuntu website (http://www.edubuntu.org). I've been making friends with the doc-team (great guys), I'm currently working on guides that will make it easy for people to gain entry to ubuntu (such as http://jonathancarter.ossn.co.za/edubuntuproto/index.py?tour (sorry, a bit older version than I have on my pc at home)).  I want to get involved as deeply as I can. I want to see Ubuntu become not only the best distro, but the best
<highvoltage> sorry, that's a bigger blob than it looked like in gedit :)
<zakame> highvoltage: that's ok :)
<Seveas> highvoltage, ah, you're an edubuntu guy
<highvoltage> Seveas: yep.
<jsgotangco> yes he did lots on the website and art
<Seveas> is ogra around?
<highvoltage> unfortunately not :(
<highvoltage> i think he's on his way back home.
<dholbach> yeah, he should be
<\sh> he's at home...sleeping his jetlag away I think
<Seveas> any other edubuntu people?
<Kamion> highvoltage: how's Edubuntu progressing in .za?
<jsgotangco> Seveas: https://launchpad.net/people/belutz
<highvoltage> Kamion: i copy it and give it away to people who want to do their own roll-out, that from a work-perspective mostly, but it has has lots of exposure.
<jsgotangco> err
<jsgotangco> wait
<jsgotangco> Seveas: https://launchpad.net/people/edubuntu
<highvoltage> many people are interested in the ubuntu setup we currently use in schools,
<Belutz> :-)
<highvoltage> and i refer them to edubuntu, since it's maintained by a bigger group of people, and more sustainable,
<Kamion> right, that makes sense
<jsgotangco> highvoltage: isn't tuxlabs going to move to edubuntu soon?
<highvoltage> jsgotangco: more likely just after dapper is released.
<Kamion> BTW your sentences above were cut off at "... install this i" and "... but the best" - go IRC
<highvoltage> we just finished upgrading the 139 schools to hoary, and we've decided to stick to a 1 year release upgrade for the schools.
<jsgotangco> FYI, tuxlabs is a project of tsf...
<highvoltage> Kamion: ok, just pasted here: http://wiki.edubuntu.org/JonathanCarter/UbuntuMembership
<highvoltage> my hacks for ubuntu to make it suitable was done in my spare time, for what it's worth, my ubuntu envolvement is completely seperate from TSF.
<sabdfl> highvoltage: is your personal interest more in edubuntu, or ubuntu?
<Kamion> ok - I certainly saw you around a good bit in Edubuntu meetings and such
<Kamion> +1
<highvoltage> sabdfl: my personal interest is in solving https://launchpad.net/products/launchpad/+bug/1
<highvoltage> i would say Ubuntu,
<Seveas> lol highvoltage :)
<zakame> highvoltage: wtg
<highvoltage> but I see how much Edubuntu can make a difference locally, and I want to make sure that it's a success.
<sabdfl> +1 from me on highvoltage membership
<highvoltage> edubuntu is a downstream interest in the project, but both are a number 1 priority in my life.
<elmo> ack
<Seveas> highvoltage, welcome aboard!
<highvoltage> Seveas: thank you!
<Belutz> highvoltage, congratz!! :-)
<highvoltage> yes, I am extatic!
<Seveas> MarioMeyer_, 
<MarioMeyer_> yes
<vuntz_> highvoltage: cool. Congratulations
<GnuKemist> highvoltage, wtg!!!
<MarioMeyer_> should i go?
<highvoltage> i should've had a web cam :)
<Seveas> 3-line intro please
<highvoltage> thanks a lot everyone. 
<MarioMeyer_> I've been using linux for approximately 11 years (since 1994) and i have always tried to participate as much as i could on the communities i belonged to. However,  staying active was something dificult to do, for there were always a great deal of obstacles and prejudice within the community. It was only when I found out about  Ubuntu-BR, that I found myself. I had opportunities to participate and help, all without any prejudice from the older me
<MarioMeyer_> produce more and more. My goal is to be able to give back to the free software community all that it has already given me.
<MarioMeyer_> In the brazillian community ive helped with translations and the LoCoTeam's planet.. I have also helped new users on IRC and on the maillist. Now im working on a new Planet clone (written in PHP - PHPlanet) to meet the needs of the LoCoTeam.
<jsgotangco> highvoltage: ok time to pile up karma points again
<smurf> MarioMeyer_: 500 char per line limit
<MarioMeyer_> sorry
<rbelem> MarioMeyer_: good luck dude
<smurf> your first line was cut off
<highvoltage> i'm also 10 minutes late for a local lug meeting, so i'll have to leave now, but we'll talk again later, guys!
<highvoltage> cheers.
<MarioMeyer_> I've been using linux for approximately 11 years (since 1994) and i have always tried to participate as much as i could on the communities i belonged to. However,  staying active was something dificult to do, for there were always a great deal of obstacles and prejudice within the community. It was only when I found out about  Ubuntu-BR, that I found myself
<sabdfl> highvoltage: keep up the good work
<MarioMeyer_> I had opportunities to participate and help, all without any prejudice from the older members. The community stimulates me to
<MarioMeyer_> produce more and more. My goal is to be able to give back to the free software community all that it has already given me.
<Seveas> MarioMeyer_, once is enough :)
<GnuKemist> hehe
<MarioMeyer_> sorry again
<smurf> Seveas: it was cut off, remember? ;-)
<GnuKemist> Mario Meyer has been extremelly involved with the Brazilian community
<GnuKemist> and effort of translating too
<Seveas> MarioMeyer_, either your wikipage is outdated or you recently joined the team
<GnuKemist> he has single-handly take off with the Planeta Brasil
<sabdfl> MarioMeyer_: what's your launchpad home page?
<MarioMeyer_> http://launchpad.net/people/MarioMeyer
<Kamion> what was the impetus behind PHPlanet (rather than hacking on Planet)?
<rbelem> GnuKemist and MarioMeyer_ are ottwo of the most active ubuntu-br members
<MarioMeyer_> Seveas > its not long i joined the team
<MarioMeyer_> Kamion > we had requests like searching trough old planet posts
<sabdfl> https://launchpad.net/people/mariomeyer
<MarioMeyer_> and planetplanet wouldnt do that
<GnuKemist> actually, Mario started working before he officially joined the team
<Kamion> ah, right, yeah, I can see that being non-trivial
<Seveas> MarioMeyer_, membership is a recognition of sustained and significant contributions
<MarioMeyer_> and also we would like a multi-admin planet... planetplanet needs shell access to admin..
<Seveas> your current contribution is significant, but for the sustained to show that would take more time imho
<MarioMeyer_> thats ok
<sabdfl> MarioMeyer_: are you a member of the official translation team? i see you making lots of suggestions, but not many are approved?
<MarioMeyer_> yes i am
<sabdfl> seems odd given that you are in ubuntu-l10n-pt-br
<MarioMeyer_> i made a lot of sugestions befor being approved in the team
<GnuKemist> maybe he marked his suggestion to be reviewed?
<sabdfl> ah, ok
<Seveas> MarioMeyer_, when exactly where you approved?
<MarioMeyer_> about a month ago.. or maybe 2 or 3 weeks more then that
* Kamion goes hunting in launchpad
<Kamion> if my network would STAY UP
<sabdfl> MarioMeyer_: can you think of any specific low hanging fruit for dapper that would help ubuntu-br?
<MarioMeyer_> i didnt get your question.. maybe my english...
<Kamion> low hanging fruit => easy things to fix
<rbelem> sabdfl: https://wiki.launchpad.canonical.com/WorkflowForTranslationTeams
<MarioMeyer_> i think that most brazillians that use US_intl keyboards have the same problem as I.. we are used to C cedil being typed as c
<MarioMeyer_> and in the keymaps for US_intl, its Alt(GR)+comma
<MarioMeyer_> most brazillians get lost with that...
<sabdfl> MarioMeyer_: how can we fix that?
<MarioMeyer_> we have had that question over and over on irc and maillist...
<MarioMeyer_> sabdfl > ive been trying to do it in /usr/share/X11/locale/
<MarioMeyer_> it works for xfce.. but hasnt worked for gnome yet
<sabdfl> have you spoken with seb128?
<MarioMeyer_> nope
<sabdfl> or with smurf? keymaps are a long-standing problem area
<sabdfl> chat with them
<sabdfl> +1 from me on MarioMeyer_ for membership
<MarioMeyer_> ok.. i will
<GnuKemist> I don't think I have to mention that I'm his fanboy, right?  ;)
<Kamion> I'm also +1; although he only joined teams relatively recently it seems that he's been contributing for a while
<Seveas> GnuKemist, no ;)
<GnuKemist> ;)
<Seveas> elmo, ?
<bhuvan> GnuKemist: you each other, true :)
<GnuKemist> hehe
<GnuKemist> I'm telling you guys, MarioMeyer_ IS the REAL deal
<GnuKemist> the fuel the Brazilian LoCo team needs
<elmo> ack
<rbelem> GnuKemist: ;-)
<rbelem> MarioMeyer_: wb
<MarioMeyer_> yes.. thanx a lot, guys
<Belutz> MarioMeyer_, congratz :-)
<Seveas> MarioMeyer_, welcome aboard!
<Seveas> zoe, you're up next
<zakame> MarioMeyer_: cheers! :D
<sabdfl> welcome to the community, MarioMeyer_
<GnuKemist> MarioMeyer_, you go man!!!
<zoe> yes
<Seveas> Hiroyuki Ikezoe
<hub> MarioMeyer_: congrats
<jsgotangco> wow what time is it there zoe, 2am?
<zoe> can i start?
<Seveas> yes please
<zoe> it's 1:30 am
<vuntz_> MarioMeyer_: congrats
<zoe> My name is Hiroyuki Ikezoe, I'm 33 years old, living in Japan.
<zoe> I am an employee of OSS company in Japan.
<Kamion> right, please can we move faster
<zoe> I am also a developer of some OSS. please see my Wiki.
<zoe> I have some Panasonic laptops, so I can test Ubuntu on these machines,
<zoe> I can help mjg59, I think. I also have knowledge about i18n. I can contribute about it.
<zoe> oops. sorry, it's my first time to use IRC.
<sabdfl> zoe: have you published any of your laptop test results?
<zoe> I posted some bug is bugzilla.
* GnuKemist has to drive 1 1/2 hours to get to work...  thank you all and see you later
<Kamion> zoe: could you propose yourself for membership of http://launchpad.net/people/ubuntumembers
<jsgotangco> zoe: you might want to contribute to the LaptopTestingTeam wiki page for your breezy results :)
<zakame> tc GnuKemist :)
<sabdfl> ok, it would be good if you could add a page to the wiki, with your laptop testing results
<zoe> jsgotangco: yes, but It's not in time.
<zoe> sabdfl: ok. I'll do it.
<zoe> I mean the time is breezy relesing.
<jsgotangco> zoe: its ok the testing team will continue on till dapper+1 really
<Seveas> it'll have to :)
<zoe> jsgotangco: Thanks. I see.
<Seveas> zoe, are you active in ubuntu-jp?
<jsgotangco> zoe: so baseline breezy results are a good indicator
<zoe> Seveas: yes, I am a member of ubuntu-jp.
<sabdfl> zoe: do you know jkbys?
<zoe> yes. he  is my collegue.
<jkbys> Seveas: zoe is one of active member of ubuntu-ja.
<zoe> colleague
<sabdfl> ok. jkbys, if you can confirm that the two... right
<Kamion> +1 on zoe then
<zoe> Kamion: thanks.
<sabdfl> zoe: for some reason i feel that i would like to see contributions over a longer time
<zoe> To tell the truth. I asked jkbys to comming tonight CC. :-)
<sabdfl> have you worked with jkbys on the ubuntu-japan ISO?
<sabdfl> ok
<sabdfl> it just looks on the wiki like jkbys has done a lot more, but i see you have been working together
<sabdfl> +1 from me for zoe too
<zoe> sabdfl: yes. I and jkbys work together to create ISO.
<sabdfl> elmo: ?
<elmo> ack
<Seveas> zoe, congratz!
<Belutz> zoe, congrats :-)
<Seveas> jkbys, you're up now
<jsgotangco> yay
<zakame> zoe: cheers! :D
<zoe> wow! Thanks!
<Seveas> jkbys, i'm pretty interested in your NX work, do you use freenx on breezy?
<zoe> jkbys good lcuk!
<jkbys> zoe mainly works for source-code level debugging, and lap-top feature.
<Kamion> I had a brief look at ubuntu-jp - of course the more we can merge from that into Ubuntu proper, the better
<jkbys> Seveas: yes, i'm using freenx on breezy.
<Seveas> jkbys, self mafe packages?
<Kamion> most of the installer stuff looked like it should be a preseed file on the CD rather than an extra installer package
<jkbys> Seveas: yes, i made freenx package patched japanese input and keyboard.
<Kamion> If zoe adds himself on launchpad then I'll approve him - otherwise chances are I'll forget
<zoe> can i join the conversation?
<Seveas> jkbys, which NX/FreeNX version?
<zoe> Kamion: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HiroyukiIkezoe this is my launchpad page.
<Seveas> zoe, no that is the wiki
<zakame> zoe: that's the wiki page, not LP's
<Seveas> zoe, launchpad is http://launchpad.net
<zoe> oops! sorry. https://launchpad.net/people/ikezoe this.
<sabdfl> gotcha
<jkbys> Seveas: 0.4.4+0.4.5 imported from kanotix package
<Seveas> ah cool
<sabdfl> zoe: https://launchpad.net/people/ubuntumembers/+join
<sabdfl> you need to join there, and ping us quickly
<Seveas> I have the same packages - there has been interest from the motu about getting them into universe (dholbach iirc)
<sabdfl> who's next?
<Seveas> sabdfl, jkbys 
<zoe> sabdfl: I will try now
<sabdfl> in that case, +1 from me on jkbys based on Loco and Japan ISO
<Seveas> jkbys, what's your opinion on the kanotix packages and are you willing to join the motu to improve them?
<Kamion> jkbys: we'd really like you to work with us to get all this stuff merged properly
<zoe> sabdfl: I did it.
<Kamion> I didn't realise that Ubuntu Japan even existed before this week
<jkbys> Seveas: yes, I hope to add japanese patch
<jsgotangco> the work is pretty impressive aye
<elmo> jkbys: your hackergotchi in launchpad rocks
<sabdfl> Kamion: i will approve zoe
<Seveas> jkbys, contact dholbach - he'll love you :)
<jkbys> Kamion: thanks, if our work is merged, we'll happy
<zoe> I'll also happy.
<Kamion> jkbys: right, if you work with the core development team on that that's probably the best plan
<jkbys> Seveas: i'll contact him
<jkbys> Kamion: i see, thanks
<Kamion> er, yeah, +1 on jkbys
<Seveas> ok, one more vote and the meeting is over :)
<elmo> ack
<Seveas> jkbys, welcome aboard!
<zoe> jkbys: congrats!
<sabdfl> zoe: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LaptopTestingTeam
<Belutz> jkbys, congrats :-)
<jkbys> thanks all
<Seveas> Let ubuntu rock Japan!
<sabdfl> well done both of you
<zakame> jkbys: cheers :D
<jkbys> i'm happy
<sabdfl> very glad to see ubuntu getting some love in japan!
<Seveas> I'll send a summary of this meeting to ubuntu-devel soon-ish
<zoe> sabdfl: thank you for your information. I'll do it tomorrow.
<jsgotangco> wow meeting is almost 3 hours...
<Seveas> 2.5
<Seveas> the CC arrived late :)
<zakame> hihi
<jsgotangco> pretty good coverage still
<zoe> I gonna sleep. it's about 2am in Japan.
<Seveas> 'night
<jsgotangco> me too
<zakame> zoe: nice dreams :D
<zoe> see you, see you tomorrow, jkbys.
<sabdfl> ok, i think we are done, right?
<zakame> me three, old folks are now angry :p
<sabdfl> any other business?
<Seveas> sabdfl, yes
<Seveas> ah nvm, mpathy is gone
<zakame> just quit a while back
<jsgotangco> errr i got question first
<sabdfl> let's give him a minute
<sabdfl> i'm curious
<sabdfl> jsgotangco: go ahead
<jsgotangco> who controls the dns for ubuntu-nn.org domains?
<Seveas> smurf
<jsgotangco> ok
<zakame> wb dholbach 
<jsgotangco> we got ourselves a serverpronto and willing to share with other loco teams
<Seveas> jsgotangco, announce that on the locoteam-contacs list :)
<jsgotangco> (hno73 set it up a few weeks ago)
<jsgotangco> okay
<jsgotangco> tee hee
<zakame> yes, there was even a meet at ubuntu-ph on how to work our site :D
<jsgotangco> ok we'll just holler at locoteam list
<Seveas> so, nothing else?
<Seveas> nothing but silence :)
* jsgotangco hears only crickets
<Seveas> I'm gonna go cook dinner
<Seveas> next meeting: nov. 22 22:00 UTC
<Belutz> Seveas, thanks :-)
<sabdfl> ok
<sabdfl> thanks all
<jsgotangco> night
<Belutz> sabdfl, Kamion, Thanks
<sabdfl> cheerio
<zakame> thanks sabdfl 
<sabdfl> well done new members
<zakame> night all :D
<Belutz> elmo, thanks :)
<Seveas> note to all new members: freenode cloaks are available ;)
<Belutz> Seveas, how do i get that? :-)
<jsgotangco> ask :)
<Seveas> Belutz, by /msg'ing me
<MarioMeyer> Seveas > can you turn on my cloak?
<MarioMeyer> plz
<mpathy> back again
<mpathy> meeting over? right? ;)
<\sh> jepp
<mpathy> tja ich bin gefahren wie ein henker :( naja war auch nicht so wichtig das von mir
<\sh> what?
<Seveas> MarioMeyer, should be done
<Seveas> mpathy, we were all puzzled about your item
<MarioMeyer> thx
<mpathy> oh sorry ;) i've got to drive home from work...
<Seveas> can you elaborate a bit more so I can put that on the agenda for next time
<mpathy> Seveas: yeah sure, that was sth. I wanted to say too..
<mpathy> Seveas: perhaps I was a little to rash to put that on the agenda
<Seveas> mpathy, but what do you mean with 'will ubuntu get lost in pseudoforks'?
<Seveas> Ubuntu is made and improvd to be easy to derive from using for instance the metapackages
<Seveas> although it should be made more clear how these things work
<mpathy> Oh, what I wanna talk about.. hmm, about the ubuntu/kubuntu/(xubuntu) "issue" - that was the thing with the "pseudoforks" <- i hope that was not to provocative
<Seveas> it was not (at least to me)
<Seveas> but it's not an issue for the CC
<Seveas> If you want to discuss this, the right place would be the ubuntu-devel mailinglist
<mpathy> okay.. but it was more like a "roadmap" thing..
<mpathy> only wanted to start a little discussion at the end of the meeting, i think..
<mpathy> but it was too rash to put it on the list
<Seveas> still not a CC issue :)
<Seveas> the CC only handles community related business
<mpathy> but that has impact on the community?
<Seveas> it is primarily a technical issue
<mpathy> i'm no developer
<mpathy> i didnt mean it from the technical side
<Seveas> Maybe you can write down your concerns on a wikipage and link to that from the agenda
<mpathy> yes that would be the best idea.. :)
<mpathy> I'll do it so
<Seveas> great
<mpathy> i hope that I offend nobody, I think I have a little Mr. Know-it-all "wouldnt it be better" quirk ;)
<Kamion> mpathy: we call those "flavours", and we think they're a good thing :)
<Kamion> note that at present they're all built out of the same archive, so we share fixes by definition
<mpathy> Kamion: I know.. I'll have to write down what I mean
<mpathy> its more a philosophical thing.. no technical thing ;)
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-11-06
<stgraber> @schedule
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 08 Nov 20:00: Edubuntu | 15 Nov 12:00: Edubuntu | 22 Nov 20:00: Edubuntu | 28 Nov 16:00: LoCo Team | 29 Nov 12:00: Edubuntu
<Mez> @schedule 
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 08 Nov 20:00: Edubuntu | 15 Nov 12:00: Edubuntu | 22 Nov 20:00: Edubuntu | 28 Nov 16:00: LoCo Team | 29 Nov 12:00: Edubuntu
<Mez> @schedule birmingham
<Ng>  l/win 71
<Ng>  /win 71
<Ng> gah
<Ng> I suck at irc ;)
<ian_brasil> @schedule manaus
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Manaus: 08 Nov 16:00: Edubuntu | 15 Nov 08:00: Edubuntu | 22 Nov 16:00: Edubuntu | 28 Nov 12:00: LoCo Team | 29 Nov 08:00: Edubuntu
<sivang> Ng: 71 ??
<sivang> Ng: you need some cleanup obviously
<Ng> yeah
<Ng> lots of windows from regisering people
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-11-07
<poningru> those of you who are in the US GO OUT AND VOTE tomorrow
* Mez -> bed
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-11-08
<LockUp> I need free program to export ODT or DOC files to PDF/X-1a. What do you propose?
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Current meeting: Edubuntu | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 15 Nov 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 22 Nov 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 28 Nov 16:00 UTC: LoCo Team | 29 Nov 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu
<somerville32> Is the Edubuntu meeting occuring?
<Simira> I didn't think it was any "ordinary" meetings during umv?
<somerville32> Mm...
<somerville32> Edubuntu seems to have a lot of meetings, haha.
<Simira> @schedule Oslo
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Oslo: Current meeting: Edubuntu | 15 Nov 13:00: Edubuntu | 22 Nov 21:00: Edubuntu | 28 Nov 17:00: LoCo Team | 29 Nov 13:00: Edubuntu
<shwag> how come when I   sudo useradd newuser  .... it doesnt create a  /home/newuser  ?
<mjg59> shwag: This isn't a technical support channel
<shwag> my bad
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 15 Nov 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 22 Nov 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 28 Nov 16:00 UTC: LoCo Team | 29 Nov 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-11-09
* Mez -> bed
<LockUp> I need a program to export a document to PDF/X-1a format. Where can I found it?
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-11-10
<lotusleaf> They join, they part! They join and part and join! The joining and parting show!
<lotusleaf> part part part! join join join!
<jrib> eh?
<lotusleaf> :P
* lotusleaf grabs an itchy and scratchy mallet
<Hawkwind> lotusleaf: You do realize this channel is logged at all times, specifically for meetings only really is what this channel is for
<lotusleaf> Hawkwind: I know, excuse my offtopic humor. :)
<Hawkwind> Hah.  Just making sure ya knew is all :)
<lotusleaf> Hawkwind: thanks! :)
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-11-05
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 07 Nov 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu Team | 08 Nov 01:00 UTC: IRC Council | 08 Nov 15:00 UTC: Community Development Team
<kraut> moin
<Ziroday> @schedule Singapore
<ubotu> Schedule for Asia/Singapore: 08 Nov 04:00: Edubuntu Team | 08 Nov 09:00: IRC Council | 08 Nov 23:00: Community Development Team
<Hobbsee> @schedule sydney
<ubotu> Schedule for Australia/Sydney: 08 Nov 07:00: Edubuntu Team | 08 Nov 12:00: IRC Council | 09 Nov 02:00: Community Development Team
<Hobbsee> hm
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 07 Nov 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu Team | 08 Nov 01:00 UTC: IRC Council | 08 Nov 15:00 UTC: Community Development Team | 08 Nov 20:00 UTC: Forum Council
<YoBoY> re
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-11-06
<kraut> moin
<nealmcb> a server team meeting is listed for this time at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting  but it isn't listed here and I think a bunch of members are in a meeting in boston now....
<sommer> nealmcb: I'll meet with ya if you want... heh :)
<nealmcb> :-)
<nealmcb> I don't know of any rules for a quorum, so I think we can just set the agenda and take over!!
<sommer> heh... I don't even know the IRC commands to do that
<nealmcb> search for "mootbot" and you'll see them all.  works like a charm.  first person to start the meeting gets control :-)
<sommer> ah, cool... I'll defer to your wisdom on this one though
<sommer> doesn't look to be much on the agenda
<sommer> I can report that there has been a lot of discussion on regarding the Server Guide :-)
<nealmcb> sommer: yeah.  and normally mathias sends out mail and such.  I'm guessing their plate is full with the all-hands meeting in boston and the magical "15 minutes" has now passed, so class dismissed.  But thanks for helping with the documentation!  That's a great topic for the agenda next time
<sommer> nealmcb: ya that was my thought as well.  It was good meeting...heh
 * sommer high fives all around
 * nealmcb sees dendrobates show up
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-11-07
<kraut> moin
<spark_> hi
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Edubuntu Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 08 Nov 01:00 UTC: IRC Council | 08 Nov 15:00 UTC: Community Development Team | 08 Nov 20:00 UTC: Forum Council
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 08 Nov 01:00 UTC: IRC Council | 08 Nov 15:00 UTC: Community Development Team | 08 Nov 20:00 UTC: Forum Council
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-11-08
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: IRC Council Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 08 Nov 15:00 UTC: Community Development Team | 08 Nov 20:00 UTC: Forum Council
 * Pici is stuck in class
 * Fujitsu wonders if the `IRC Council Calender: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event' meeting is a new one, or if somebody forgot a pipe.
<Pici> Someone forgot a pipe
<Pici> Probably Seveas
<PriceChild> Right so I'm here, and nal and lj.l waiting on elky I think.
<LjL-Temp> i'm here, i think, perhaps
<LjL-Temp> as soon as i can get my nickname
<PriceChild> The agenda is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcTeam/IrcCouncil/MeetingAgenda as always.
<Seeker`> *cough*Mootbot*cough*
<AndrewB> Good afternoon.
<Pici> Is it possible to go over the offtopic stuff first? my time is short here.
<PriceChild> Right cool so lets get started.
<PriceChild> I don't see why not if the others are ok with it?
<PriceChild> Pici, You aren't Mr Rubin are you?
<Pici> PriceChild: I happen to be Mr. Rubin.
<Pici> I need a wiki page ;)
<elkbuntu> yeah... im trying to find the agenda too
<Pici> elkbuntu: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcTeam/IrcCouncil/MeetingAgenda
<Pici> I think that we need to document the rules for offtopic in the Wiki and provide a link to it in the channel topic, much like we do with the IRC guidelines for #ubuntu.
<elkbuntu> Pici, i should know that. i made the page :Ã
<PriceChild> Pici, do the current guidelines not work?
<LjL> Pici, please note that the Ubuntu guidelines are valid in *all* channels, and they don't go too much into the specifics even for #ubuntu -- The specifics are mostly handled using bot factoids, same as in #ubuntu-offtopic
<LjL> Guidelines are guidelines, they aren't (or shouldn't be) a very detailed list of rules
<Pici> PriceChild: I'll be honest, I read over the guidelines a few times and didnt see the o4o stuff.  Of course right now I just looked at it and saw it immediately.
 * Pici smacks forehead.
<elkbuntu> the o4o should be constantly revised anyway
<AndrewB> Umm o4o means?
<LjL> AndrewB, "offtopic for offtopic"
<LjL> !o4o
<ubotu> Some things are inappropriate for #ubuntu-meeting. Controversial topics, which always turn into flamewars: war, race, religion, politics (unless related to software licencing), gender, sexuality, drugs, questionable legal activities, removing of oneself from the planet (except by space or time travel) are not for here, perhaps #off-topic or ##politics. Microsoft software in ##windows (Please note Freenode Policy) - Thanks.
<elkbuntu> additionally, offtopic shouldnt be touted as a channel for 'anything and everything'
<AndrewB> oh
<Seeker`> offtopic 4 offtopic?
<Pici> Anyway. I added the guidelines to the topic (which werent there).  Even though the offtopic topic is fun, and changing, we should make it a policy to always keep that link there.
<PriceChild> Is there something in Guidelines about taking heed of bot factoids where appropriate? *looks*
<PriceChild> Maybe that would be good? I'm pretty sure I've had a few complaining to me that they didn't think they have to abide by what the bot says seen as it doesn't say that in the guidelines.
<LjL> Pici, we used to have "/msg ubotu o4o" in the topic, too, but you know that topic changes quite often. In any case, the guidelines should contain general concepts that can be *implemented* by us; so, if you think the guidelines lack something (i.e. !o4o isn't, for example, a valid implementation of "Be respectful"), then that would be a valid concern.
<LjL> PriceChild, I suggest that we discuss that later, on the "Possible revision of the guidelines" item, as I had something much like that in mind.
<PriceChild> k cool
<Pici> LjL: I rescind my original Agenda item.  I somehow skipped the o4o section of the guidelines.
<PriceChild> Ok cool.
<Pici> Twice.
<PriceChild> hey i said that twice...
<PriceChild> anyway next item then :)
<LjL> Which one shall we next?
<elkbuntu> the top one i think
<PriceChild> I say 3... as 1,2,4 are linked
<PriceChild> and 3's related to this
<elkbuntu> good point
<LjL> Ok
<Pici> Okay.
<LjL> I propose that the guidelines might be in need of *slight* revision. Specifically, we should:
<LjL> 1) Clarify what kinds of "advice" are welcome. "Good advice" and "bad advice" can be subjective concepts, and I believe we should make it clear in the guidelines that "bad advice" is worse than no advice, and define "bad advice" as something specified by the operators, which on their turn get it from Canonical support staff, and ultimately from the Ubuntu Technical Board
<Pici> aer
<Pici> PriceChild: ignore me, I can't read.
<elkbuntu> Pici, we're beginning to notice :Ã
 * Pici smacks forehead again
<LjL> PriceChild: Sure, it will be put in a softer way than I put it here. In the end, though, it comes down to the fact that we CAN state that a certain kind of action is unsupported and should NOT be recommended, and helpers should respect that.
<PriceChild> yup
<LjL> I think we can come up with a proper wording for that, but I think the concept behind it is clear to us.
<Seeker`> if people think that they haven't done anything wrong, they wont care if a factoid says that ops can decide what is/isnt bad behaviour / advice though
<PriceChild> I would hope that the CoC's being responsible for your actions would cover this but of course trolls have selective vision...
<LjL> Not a factoid, Seeker`, I'm talking about putting this in the *Guidelines*. Then there can be, perhaps, specific factoids about things that are unsupported
<elkbuntu> PriceChild, most people dont get the !worksforme concept
<elkbuntu> s/most/many/
 * Pici agrees
<LjL> And if they do, they maintain the opinion that they should still be allowed to give advice that "works for them", since they're volunteering to give that advice.
<LjL> But I don't believe that is the mindset that we encourage in the channels.
<elkbuntu> of course it's not
<Pici> !ping
<ubotu> pong
 * Pici watches a tumbleweed roll by
<Jucato> the meeting's over?
<elkbuntu> no
<LjL> "While we encourage everyone to offer Ubuntu support to other users, it is the channel operators' duty to ensure that the advice given is sound and safe, and operators will use their best judgment to ensure that the channel as a whole follows the recommendations of the Ubuntu Technical Board"
<elkbuntu> everyone's just off reading/scribing stuff
<Pici> I thought I got lagged out, sorry.
<LjL> is there agreement on this specific text - if we need to lay out the precise text right now - for my point 1?
<LjL> can we go on without logging and users coming and going?
<elkbuntu> LjL, surely someone here is logging (i know i am) and we can pass on the logs to scribes
 * Seeker` suggests using mootbot to log stuff as well
<elkbuntu> Seeker`, mootbot isnt immune from splits either
<LjL> elkbuntu: I suppose so, and our logs can be cross-checked if anyone asks that...
<Seeker`> elkbuntu: I know, but it is another logging source
<elkbuntu> lets continue before another one hits
<LjL> so, please, elkbuntu, nalioth, PriceChild, can we consider that point #1 approved, and perhaps the latest text I posted acceptable?
<AndrewB> If needs be I can provide a log.
<PriceChild> Yeah I think I'm happy with that.
<elkbuntu> LjL, point one approved, point two subject to a little more revision
<nalioth> approved, subject to fine tuning
<LjL> Ok, for point #2 I propose the following text:
<LjL> "These guidelines do not cover every single aspect of the Ubuntu channels' etiquette. Specific practices are encouraged and discouraged, according to these guidelines' intent as well as to practical channel needs. Recommendations from channel operators, including those stored in the channel bots, should be followed."
<elkbuntu> wasnt there more?
<LjL> More of what, elkbuntu?
 * elkbuntu shrugs
<LjL> elkbuntu, explain yourself, I'm simply not following you :-)
<elkbuntu> LjL, what point is this for? #3 on the agenda?
<LjL> No elkbuntu, still "Possible revision of the guidelines" (listed as third)
<LjL> I meant the second part that I proposed about that
<LjL> I will summarize again
<elkbuntu> ah, right, i was confused at why it changed completely from your last bit
<LjL> 1) Clarify what kinds of "advice" are welcome. "Good advice" and "bad advice" can be subjective concepts, and I believe we should make it clear in the guidelines that "bad advice" is worse than no advice, and define "bad advice" as something specified by the operators, which on their turn get it from Canonical support staff, and ultimately from the Ubuntu Technical Board
<LjL> This was approved
<LjL> 2) Clarify that the guidelines don't codify EVERY rule that is applied in #ubuntu and other channels, but, as we were saying now, just the... guidelines. So, we should point out in the guidelines that operators can (through the bot) give useful indications to people, and that those should be respected
<LjL> The point above is what the text I proposed now would refer to
<elkbuntu> ah right. +1. i think everyone else is mia though
<LjL> PriceChild, nalioth?
<nalioth> yes
<PriceChild> Nope I'm happy I think :)
<nalioth> yes +1 agreed
<LjL> Then can we move on to... which item?
<elkbuntu> LjL, back to the top i think
<PriceChild> number 1?
<elkbuntu> LjL,  it precursors #2 imho
<LjL> They're certainly interwa... however it's said. Connected.
<PriceChild> i'll start 1 :P
<PriceChild> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcTeam/Scope & https://edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-irc are the only two pages currently describing the ubuntu-irc team afaik.
<LjL> "Clarification of what the "ubuntu-irc" team actually is and who is eligible to join" and "Clarification on the status of #ubuntu-ops, who may idle, who gets voice"
<elkbuntu> we should clarify who is part of the team before we decide who is eligable to be in there
<PriceChild> Despite the "Only existing operators should join this team" we've had lots of applications to the ubuntu-irc team lately, most not replied to yet. Almost all from "random" people who don't op in many channels I'm familiar with, and who don't frequent the main help channels either.
<PriceChild> I'd just like to flesh out those two pages, describe better what this team is for and who's eligible to be a member.
<somerville32> I thought the "no one but ops in -ops" attitude was abolished
<LjL> somerville32, let's start with the Ubuntu IRC team for the moment.
<somerville32> LjL, sorry
<PriceChild> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcTeam/Scope is a little unsure of itself and seems to say that operating in a #ubuntu channel and being in ubuntu-irc is one and the same.
<elkbuntu> somerville32, it is, but we also have a high rate of trolls and botnet people lurking in there being disruptive
<PriceChild> What has been the case so far afaik, is that a helpful user gets invited to operate in a channel or two (whether by council or other contact), is observed, and hopefully eventually accepted into the ubuntu-irc team where they are in a much better position to request ops in other channels to help out further. I like this more.
<elkbuntu> somerville32, hobbsee got attacked based on something said in there by nicks that were not in there
<somerville32> PriceChild, Wouldn't you agree that the channels should be operated people directly related to that channel?
<somerville32> (for the most part)
<LjL> PriceChild, I think your proposal follows the one that was made and approved in a previous meeting, that "the Ubuntu IRC team is a pool of people who the IRC Council is comfortable with proposing as operators if any channel needs new operators" [not exact quotation]
<PriceChild> somerville32, I've not said anything against that?
<somerville32> PriceChild, no, you haven't. I'm asking a question :]
<elkbuntu> somerville32, want to reword that? it doesnt make sense
<PriceChild> My proposal is more "lets write this down a few details so we can point people to it"
<somerville32> elkbuntu, ie. #ubuntu-marketing ops should composed of mostly people involved with that eam
<PriceChild> somerville32, yes... and channel contacts choose people connected with their channel.
<somerville32> *team
<PriceChild> the council does not impose operators on contacts
<somerville32> PriceChild, And channel contacts are determined by the IRC council?
<PriceChild> somerville32, no not at all...
<somerville32> PriceChild, Okay. I'm confused. Could someone point me to where the mandate of the IRC council is located? :)
<LjL> The Council definitely does not and does not want to impose operators, but the IRC Team members MAY be asked by any Ubuntu channel's contact to become operators. I think that is the concept.
<LjL> somerville32: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcTeam/IrcCouncil
<PriceChild> somerville32, ubuntuirccouncil owns the main support channels. Any further teams have their own leadership structure... like #ubuntu-women or #ubuntu-motu
<elkbuntu> somerville32, team ops etc are organic as they have always been. The only additional influence of the irc council on this is that we should be listed as operators for emergency situations
<LjL> elkbuntu, even that I would propose as optional, though possibly encouraged.
<somerville32> So, are there Xubuntu, Kubuntu, Edubuntu, and Gobuntu representatives on the IRC council?
<elkbuntu> LjL, yes, encouraged
<LjL> I would propose that all channels list Freenode staff as operators, however.
<PriceChild> We've already agreed that ubuntu-irc is a list of trusted ops, approved by the council etc. etc.
<PriceChild> My issue here is more about how a user _joins_ the team.
<AndrewB> Is there a way you could group ubuntu-irc people, having you all on access lists creates long and complicated lists
<AndrewB> could you have a specific cloak?
<somerville32> What if we changed the launchpad structure up a bit?
<LjL> somerville32, some channels are directly administrated by the Ubuntu IRC council, and some are not. Those that are not act in their own interest, although they certainly have to abide by the CoC, and item "The interaction between the IRC Council and channels not directly administrated by it" of this meeting should also address some other points about them.
<somerville32> LjL, So, for example, who determines if Xubuntu participates or not?
<LjL> AndrewB, I think that could be discussed, but perhaps at a later stage.
<PriceChild> This has also been discussed before AndrewB and was dismissed as it was agreed we don't want that sort of hierarchy. ubuntu/members and operators are different, non mutually-exclusive groups.
<LjL> somerville32: is the channel contact for the Xubuntu channel UbuntuIRCCouncil?
<AndrewB> @ubuntu/member/irc.team.Nick
<somerville32> LjL, Is that a username?
<AndrewB> If we contacted freenode we could beg for something right?
<LjL> somerville32: Yes, it is.
<PriceChild> AndrewB, not allowed by freenode
<somerville32> LjL, Yes it is.
<PriceChild> AndrewB, we can vary the bit between ubuntu and nick but nothing more
<AndrewB> I know it is supposed to be project/level/pdpc.level.nick or other but maybe we could beg for a special case?
<Tm_T> PriceChild: AndrewB: and how about team members who are not ubuntu members?
<AndrewB> Hmm I suppose that is true also
 * Seeker` is an ubuntu-irc member, and not an ubuntu member
<LjL> AndrewB, I don't think that is particularly needed, anyway... Yes, our operators lists are long, but manageable mostly.
<PriceChild> We can add this to our agenda next time...
 * AndrewB will do a bit of research on it
<elkbuntu> somerville32, the irc council is a desktop-agnostic group. we are responsible for the #*buntu* channels as a whole.
<Tm_T> including "official" loco channels I believe
<somerville32> elkbuntu, The different flavours are distinct projects.
<LjL> Could we turn back to the original topic of the item "Clarification of what the "ubuntu-irc" team actually is and who is eligible to join"?
<LjL> Interaction between the IRC Council and channels not directly administrated by it is covered by another item.
<somerville32> Can we define what the team is before we decide for can join it?
<somerville32> *who
<PriceChild> The ubuntu-irc team on launchpad is a group of irc operators, approved by the Ubuntu IRC Council.
<LjL> somerville32, I think we are trying to define it, aside from the core definition that PriceChild just gave.
<elkbuntu> somerville32, it is seeming like you are taking us along a completely seperate line of discussion to that which we are attempting to discuss
<Tm_T> PriceChild: + "known to be trusted" in some way?
<somerville32> elkbuntu, Sorry. We all get easily distracted sometimes :]
<LjL> Tm_T: If we approve them, then we should trust them ;-)
<somerville32> PriceChild, And what does it mean to be a part of that team?
<nalioth> somerville32: as mentioned:  a group of irc operators who can be trusted to responsibly step in and help you with your *buntu* channel operations
<LjL> PriceChild made a proposal about that question, I believe, right when we began talking about this item, which is the reason the item was brought up in the first place.
<Tm_T> LjL: I mean, it should be pointed out in documentation so others really really know it
<LjL> PriceChild, perhaps you could summarize your proposal again?
<PriceChild> Tm_T, yes.... which is why I added to the agenda and suggested exactly that above
<Tm_T> PriceChild: yup
<PriceChild> Ubuntu-IRC is a team of operators, approved by the Ubuntu IRC Council. The team exists to give Ubuntu channel contacts a ready pool of enthusiastic, trusted operators for their channel should they need it. Channel contacts should also hopefully be able to trust a user belonging to this group if they request access.
 * ajmitch should really leave that team then
<Tm_T> ajmitch: you do what you have to do :)
<ajmitch> well if it requires enthusiasm... :)
<Seeker`> ajmitch: you untrusted? or not enthusiastic?
<LjL> PriceChild, as for that definition, +1
<LjL> ajmitch: faked enthusiasm is informally allowed.
<somerville32> +1
<Tm_T> PriceChild: sounds good to me, time shows more :))
<ajmitch> Seeker`: as trustworthy as you can throw me, but I predate the council by a long way, in terms of membership
<ajmitch> LjL: oh that's alright then
<elkbuntu> +1 to the definition
<PriceChild> My main want for this meeting, was to write something down of how users get accepted to the team... as I said above: "What has been the case so far afaik, is that a helpful user gets invited to operate in a channel or two (whether by council or other contact), is observed, and hopefully eventually accepted into the ubuntu-irc team where they are in a much better position to request ops in other channels to he
<PriceChild> lp out further."
<AndrewB> PriceChild: could you remove 'hopefully' it sounds like you *may* not be trusted?
<PriceChild> AndrewB, meh details... i put that in there as hoping that the contact would be confident to trust but can see what you mean
<somerville32> I don't see the word trust in that
<PriceChild> somerville32, the word "hopefully"
<AndrewB> Channel contacts should also hopefully be able to trust
<LjL> AndrewB, that's just his summary, it's not a final text for anything, keep that in mind
<somerville32> Oh, wrong paragraph
<AndrewB> sorry LjL and PriceChild I didn't realise. :( heh
<LjL> Although the other part, the definition, can be a final text for what I am concerned, as I already expressed my approval for it
<elkbuntu> PriceChild, +1 pending edits
<somerville32> Looks good to me too
<LjL> Same for me, +1, it just needs to be written down, but the way you have expressed it leaves no room to ambiguities really.
<PriceChild> So a few things came up when I've discussed this with others before...
<PriceChild> So which channels count? Of course there's the ones listed on IrcTeam/Scope, but what about LoCo channels for example?
<elkbuntu> nalioth, care to vote?
<nalioth> silence is consent
<nalioth> +1
<somerville32> PriceChild, Why would it extend to loco teams?
<nalioth> if i see something, i'll jump right in
<AndrewB> The language barrier would cause problems on LoCo channels would it not?
<LjL> nalioth, +1 is consent... please, it's two characters, perhaps one hit of Shift :-P
<PriceChild> somerville32, because there are ops in ubuntu loco channels etc... and we have had a LOT of loco ops applying
<Seeker`> AndrewB: Why would it?
<LjL> I believe that the Ubuntu IRC Team, and PriceChild's description of its membership process, should only apply to channels directly administrated by the IRC Council.
<somerville32> PriceChild, loco teams should manage their own channels but they should be able to apply join the ubuntu-irc just like anyone else
<AndrewB> Seeker`: if you were called to ubuntu-fr  would you have 100 percent clue on what is going on?
<Seeker`> AndrewB: You would only respond to calls in languages you understand then
<elkbuntu> AndrewB, some incidents you dont need to know the language to know what's going on
<LjL> AndrewB, Seeker`, the language barrier is something I will try to address in "The interaction between the IRC Council and channels not directly administrated by it". It should not, indeed, be prejudicial, although it's clear that when a language barrier exists, some things can become more difficult.
<elkbuntu> AndrewB, if i joined a channel of any language to see a url a million and one times flooding past my eyes, i think i'd figure it was the problem
<PriceChild> My take on it... is half with ljl, half with somerville32. With decisions on accepting an application, we want a majority approval of the IRCC. So if there's a public channel not listed in scope... in which the majority of the IRCC has seen a good sustained contribution by a channel op... then that should be good enough?
<somerville32> PriceChild, I agree. The irc team is just a list of trusted operators.
<PriceChild> we might all idle in say... #ubuntu-foo on the offchance...
<LjL> PriceChild: That should not be excluded, I agree. However, it should be made clear, I think, to channel operators that they should not normally EXPECT to become part of the IRC Team. It could happen, but only after interaction between them and the IRC Council.
<AndrewB> Yeah elkbuntu sure, but what about trolling. Remember floods are not allways what you would be called upon [sorry for lagged answer]
<PriceChild> LjL, yup. because without that we have no basis on which to make an opinion.
<somerville32> LjL, What PriceChild is saying is that loco team ops are not accepted on the basis they are an op in their loco chan - just like #ubuntu-marketing ops aren't automatically accepted. They get accepted based on their interactions with the ubuntu-irc team/council.
<LjL> PriceChild: Indeed. It is important that operators realize that fact, though, and that might be worthwhile to communicate to them unambiguously.
<elkbuntu> AndrewB, every little bit helps in situations like that. if i can help with the spamming, then i do
<LjL> somerville32: That is what I am saying, too. But I am also saying that operators could be made aware of that somewhat more explicitly. Perhaps the "Interaction" meeting item, once again, may enter the equation.
<PriceChild> And of course it should go without saying the operator has to agree to CoC, LCoC, user and operator guidelines...
 * somerville32 nods.
<Seeker`> AndrewB: as i understand it, you wouldn't have to respond to EVERY call for help - you would only respond to trolls, for example, in languages you understand
<Pici> lcoc?
<PriceChild> Pici, leadership CoC
<Pici> PriceChild: okay
<somerville32> Seeker`, I don't understand why you are bringing that up.
<PriceChild> its referenced off the CoC and our operator guideliens
<AndrewB> Seeker`: elkbuntu ok thanks for helping me understand :)
<Seeker`> somerville32: I am responding to AndrewB
<PriceChild> somerville32, they're having an ongoing conversation
<LjL> elkbuntu, AndrewB, as I said, I would still leave the decision on whether to have the Ubuntu IRC Council as an operator on channels to the channel contacts - but ENCOURAGING it should be fine. It is a bit like Freenode does, encouraging channels to +o staff.
<Pici> PriceChild: Right, just wasn't familiar with the acronym
<elkbuntu> LjL, i said nothing about force
<somerville32> LjL, Only the channels under the scope of the IRC council should have the IRC council as a channel contact
<LjL> And I am not claiming you did. Just, do we agree that we should actively encourage channels to have the Ubuntu IRC Council as operator?
<somerville32> Otherwise, the channel is completely autonomous withstanding CoC
<LjL> somerville32: "operator", not "contact".
<AndrewB> LjL: I would say yes to that, though I don't think I have any weight heh
<elkbuntu> LjL, we should encourage, yes. additionally we should be encouraging the /freenode/staff/* in the access list too
<ajmitch> LjL: what would this mean, for loco channels & the like?
<somerville32> LjL, I'm agnostic to recommending that because it makes no difference.
<LjL> Also, all the #*buntu* channels (almost) are under the scope of the IRC Council, as far as Freenode sees it. It is a matter of network policies.
<LjL> elkbuntu, surely we should.
<AndrewB> Ouch lag again..
<elkbuntu> ajmitch, it means that if there are no active loco ops, then someone else can come to the rescue. it's more important in the big loco channels like -de, -es, -fr
<ajmitch> so just the council, not the -irc team?
<somerville32> LjL, But is the IRCC allowed to use that power as the namespace contact?
<nalioth> ajmitch: anyone on the ubuntu-irc list
<elkbuntu> ajmitch, that's up to the loco or team. the irc team is like a 'certified to not boot you all out for laughs' list
<PriceChild> somerville32, yes
<nalioth> somerville32: yes, we can, if necessary
<Pici> Does this mean that IRCC members will need to idle in every loco team channel? Thats a bit extreme.
<LjL> I will summarize. The Ubuntu IRC Team is a team of operators trusted by the IRC Council, and a "pool" for other channels in need of new operators. Membership should be based on an IRC Council decision after overseeing the future member's operation of one or more channels. Membership through other means should be explicitly discouraged. Channels not directly under IRC Council control are encouraged to list Freenode staff, and if they so desire the IRC
<LjL> Council, as channel operators.
<LjL> PriceChild, nalioth, elkbuntu?
<PriceChild> This isn't a "this is going to happen...." this is "just incase it does, it coul dbe useful to..."
<somerville32> nalioth, PriceChild: That I think there needs to be strict documentation describing when the IRCC can use the "notwithstanding clause" and have it approved by the CC
<Seeker`> Pici: No, they could come and find ops in -ops  or something
<PriceChild> Pici, no, but we are availiable in -ops and will be able to easily act.
<PriceChild> somerville32, read the governence doc.
<Pici> PriceChild: Understood.
<nalioth> LjL: looks good
<elkbuntu> ljl +1
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 08 Nov 15:00 UTC: Community Development Team | 08 Nov 20:00 UTC: Forum Council
<elkbuntu> is this can be finished time now?
* LjL changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Ubuntu IRC Council | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 08 Nov 15:00 UTC: Community Development Team | 08 Nov 20:00 UTC: Forum Council
<elkbuntu> havent we done all the items?
<LjL> I don't think there is another meeting upcoming.
<ajmitch> elkbuntu: yes, almost beer o'clock
<somerville32> When would the IRRC ever need to use the notwithstanding clause without getting CC approval?
<LjL> No, but perhaps we should hurry up a bit more.
<LjL> Let's move on to the next item please.
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 08 Nov 15:00 UTC: Community Development Team | 08 Nov 20:00 UTC: Forum Council
<LjL> "Clarification on the status of #ubuntu-ops, who may idle, who gets voice"
<PriceChild> somerville32, we can request ownership of any channel in the ubuntu or affiliates namespace.
<elkbuntu> ajmitch, considering i havent eaten anything except raspberry and pear jelly so far today, im rather looking forward to making some lunch
<somerville32> PriceChild, Yes... thats the power you have but when are you allowed to use it?
<AndrewB> elkbuntu: can I have some :(
<PriceChild> somerville32, when we deem it necessary.
<elkbuntu> AndrewB, it might be melted by the time it gets to you
<nalioth> somerville32: if you create #ubuntu-child-molesters, the channel _will_ be taken away
<PriceChild> somerville32, this is stated in the team governance document, as approved by the CC.
<LjL> So, can we now talk about things that were not already decided in previous meetings? "Clarification on the status of #ubuntu-ops, who may idle, who gets voice" is probably the next in list, connected to the previous item.
<ajmitch> by the time the CC responds to something, it'd probably be far too late
<somerville32> ajmitch, Cases like dealing with rogue channels can easily be documented as an approved use of that power.
<elkbuntu> LjL, i would think irc team get voice, trusted observers can idle
<LjL> 1) Should we allow or disallow idlers? Should we allow only certain idlers?  2) Do only the people who are member of the IRC Team get voice (in order to be recognized as operators by users), or should that be handled differntly?
<PriceChild> somerville32, read the governance document... we've a new topic now.
<Hobbsee> somerville32: that sounds like a *very* loaded statement
<LjL> elkbuntu, should operators who are not yet IRC Team members not be allowed voice until they are?
<LjL> Also, won't disallowing idlers *and* restricting voice to IRC Team members result in "legitimate" handlers being questioned all the time by forgetful operators?
<elkbuntu> LjL, on a case-by-case basis
<somerville32> Why not just let anyone idle in -ops?
<Seeker`> IMO, Ops in "approved" channels (#*buntu*), should be allowed in -ops
<PriceChild> My take on this is that I don't mind anyone idling in -ops... as long as they don't have a recent history of trolling or similar on the bantracker.
<elkbuntu> LjL, i'd recommend that if you trust them enough to have voice there, that they should be put on the irc team too
<PriceChild> We want to be open... we are publically logged.
<LjL> somerville32, we are wary of that, because *very* malicious people have idled in #ubuntu-ops in the past.
<PriceChild> However I do NOT want any important realtime information going through there being used against us.
<somerville32> LjL, How does that affect if they idled in say #ubuntu ?
<elkbuntu> somerville32, i covered this before. it's quite a time waster to get attacked in the middle of an issue based on something said in there
<somerville32> LjL, err.. what is the difference?
<somerville32> elkbuntu, Thats a very valid point.
<LjL> somerville32, by idling in #ubuntu-ops, one can find out when operators are away, and what they are doing, and time attacks.
<PriceChild> somerville32, because important information can be said in -ops
<Seeker`> somerville32: There is information about which ops are active etc. in -ops etc.
<somerville32> PriceChild, The channel is logged.
<PriceChild> We discuss tactics when dealing with botnets etc. etc.
<PriceChild> somerville32, it is not logged in real time.
<somerville32> IRC is not mission critical
<Seeker`> somerville32: there is a lag with the logs
<somerville32> If people spam, they spam
<PriceChild> somerville32, the logs are considerably delayed... as I have stated above.
<Hobbsee> somerville32: uh, by saying that, you're clearly showing that you *dont* know much about ops
<nalioth> somerville32: spam is the least of our worries
<elkbuntu> somerville32, you are kidding, right?
<Seeker`> somerville32: But if there is a simple step which makes dealing with attacks / improving user experience, shouldn't it be taken?
<Seeker`> there should be an "easier" in there
<Hobbsee> somerville32: that channel *is* mission critical to us doing ops effectively.
<somerville32> I wasn't trying to dispute that.
<elkbuntu> somerville32, that channel is next to useless for communicating if there are idiot lurkers in there using it as a chat channel
<somerville32> elkbuntu, Agreed.
<LjL> I don't believe LoCo operators, in general, should idle in #ubuntu-ops, because I, personally, know too few LoCo operators and so, unfortunately, I cannot really I "trust" many of them. I would like to try to improve this situation, IF we find the time to discuss the "Interaction" item, however.
<somerville32> But I don't seee why there needs to be a blanket policy
<elkbuntu> somerville32, that's what it becomes when you let anyone idle in there
<LjL> We are already very much out of time, on the other hand.
<somerville32> Why not just deal with the trouble people like you would in any other channel?
<Mithrandir> elkbuntu: either, they are lurkers, or they are using it as a chat channel.  Lurker implies they are not saying anything.
<Tm_T> LjL: trusted ops of other channels, so they have to gain our trust ;)
 * elkbuntu kciks Mithrandir
<nalioth> somerville32: because some malicious people aren't malicious in -ops
 * Mithrandir tickles elkbuntu back
 * elkbuntu pouts
 * AndrewB throws in the freenode/helper gang to, are they welcome?
<Seeker`> LjL: How can they interact with you, if they cant be in -ops?
<elkbuntu> AndrewB, yes
<PriceChild> AndrewB, i'm sure freenode are always welcome.
<LjL> Seeker`: I WILL explain that, if we can get to the relevant item.
<LjL> But I am starting to suspect we may not.
<Seeker`> LjL: Ok, sorry
 * Tm_T has waited this moment :))
<LjL> Nothing to be sorry about.
<PriceChild> I'd like to suggest we are open to all users. However the IRC Council reserves the right to remove any user from the channel. This could be done when a user has a history of trolling, and important information is about to be discussed for example.
<Hobbsee> LjL: yes, this does seem like a hijack of the meeting.
<PriceChild> Which is pretty much what we do now...
<Tm_T> PriceChild: or he is just "looking" IMO
<PriceChild> Tm_T, meh... council discression... sometimes it doesn't hurt to have a little chat and explain what goes on.
<Tm_T> if someone likes to know what happens there, there's logs, right?
<PriceChild> So... +v....
<Tm_T> PriceChild: true there
<Seeker`> I would like to suggest that there should be a discussion of whether someone should be kicked, rather than 1 op deciding to kick someone
<LjL> It is 3:40am in my timezone, and I would like to satisfyingly but speedily conclude this meeting. Can we agree that idlers should be handled on a case-by-case basis by the IRC Council and that, in general, only members of the IRC Team should get voice? I think that, at a later stage, we may modify this policy, and allow more people to have +v status, after some more mechanisms have been set in motion.
<nalioth> Seeker`: there usually _is_ a discussion
<Tm_T> 0443
<elkbuntu> LjL, agreed
<Tm_T> LjL: agreed there
<Seeker`> nalioth: not always though
<PriceChild> Seeker`, not always "publically"
<somerville32> +1 LjL
<LjL> PriceChild, nalioth?
<PriceChild> Seeker`, when dealing with a user in -ops 9 times out of 10 i'll be in pm with someone in pm about it.
<Seeker`> as far as I am aware, there was not a discussion about whether I should be kicked from -ops
<nalioth> +1
<LjL> Seeker`, the IRC Council reserves the right to kick idlers - that was the case before this meeting. I'm sorry, however, about that incident, but there was nothing out of the normal technically.
<PriceChild> Shall we discuss "what about the people with +v now who aren't in the team" next time?
<LjL> PriceChild, unless we revise the +v status - now or later -, I think they should not have +v right now.
 * Hobbsee thinks this comes down to that somerville32 and friends dont trust the current ops, at all
<PriceChild> But yes... for now I'd rather we kept new +v's to the ubuntu-irc team for clarity, that's waht it was originally for. If we give it out to lots of people it doesn't really mean anything and we might as well get rid of it.
<LjL> I, honestly, would be willing to propose +v status not only for IRC Team members, but in general for people who we know can deal with user complains, even if they are not operators.
<somerville32> Hobbsee, Even if that is true, it still is something that needs to be worked through collaboratively and maturely
<LjL> However, I think that proposal should be postponed.
<Seeker`> LjL: I understand why it was done, and I am happy with the way it was resolved etc., but I was just suggesting that it (s|c)ould be policy to discuss it, unless the user is obviously causing harm
<PriceChild> LjL, and users able to deal with complaints should be invited into the team ;)
<LjL> PriceChild, I don't agree that's necessarily and always true.
<PriceChild> LjL, hehe
<Hobbsee> somerville32: by people who actually are in the channels, and know what they're talking about
<somerville32> Hobbsee, no.
<Hobbsee> so the discussion is not useless
<LjL> So, +v only for IRC Team members, pending a possible/likely future revision of this policy. Sounds good?
<AndrewB> PriceChild: I would like to see something like that, a clearer path on how to become more involved would be cool ;)
<Tm_T> LjL: agreed
<PriceChild> Yup... we should organise another meeting pretty soon.
<elkbuntu> LjL, yep
<somerville32> Hobbsee, You can't have it just a self-selected group having full control over the irc channels.
<PriceChild> AndrewB, k cool.
<somerville32> Hobbsee, The IRCC needs to be open to hearing opinions from the entire community
<LjL> Do we need to talk more about the #ubuntu-ops related issues, or can we move to the next item?
<PriceChild> somerville32, you're here... giving your opinion?
<somerville32> PriceChild, Yes but Hobbsee doesn't feel I should be allowed
<nalioth> somerville32: um, the council was elected.
<Tm_T> somerville32: untrue
<elkbuntu> somerville32, your tone is not building any trust
<Hobbsee> somerville32: not when your'e spreading lies and propoganda, no.
<somerville32> ...
<PriceChild> moving on.... you can discuss this in private if you wish
<somerville32> I can not believe you just said that, Hobbsee.
<nalioth> LjL: next item please
<LjL> I don't think what is being discussed is relevant to this meeting.
<LjL> Yes nalioth
<LjL> "The interaction between the IRC Council and channels not directly administrated by it, and improving communication with LoCo channels"
<Hobbsee> actually knowing what you're talking about, *before* trying to change it, is usually a good idea.
<LjL> I would like to propose means to be in closer contact with the Ubuntu channels that are not directly administrated by the IRC Council, and LoCo channels in particular. Please see the draft at http://www.novarata.net/wiki/index.php?title=Other_Channels - If those ideas are approved, I would like to get in contact with each channel owner about it.
<PriceChild> Hobbsee, move to private please :)
<nalioth> Hobbsee: somerville32: please continue in #ubuntu-ops if you don't mind  :)
 * somerville32 nods.
<Tm_T> LjL: from me approved and contacted
<Hobbsee> nalioth: fair enough.  but, i dont plan to waste time on it, if it's not going to be listened to and thought about
<Seeker`> LjL: That looks like a good plan to me
<LjL> I hope it should, in time, both settle problems with LoCo channels and other channels (such as the ones we have discussed earlier), and hopefully also create a new useful environment to interact.
<PriceChild> I kinda like the idea of seperating general "about operating/irc" discussion from the bans/appeals/main channel discussions.
<LjL> That is also one of the goals.
<Tm_T> yup
<LjL> I assume you may have issues with some points, as it is a relatively complex proposal, but I suppose that if those issues are minor, they can be discussed in #ubuntu-ops and minor changes made.
<LjL> Also, that document does not mention anything about the Ubuntu IRC Team, the #ubuntu-ops channel, UbuntuIRCCouncil as operator, freenode/staff/* as operator
<LjL> Since we have discussed all those issues during the meeting, I think the decisions we have reached can be added to that document.
<Tm_T> aye from me
<LjL> That way, channel contacts and operators will be made aware of them, as well as the other points that are original to that document.
<LjL> nalioth, elkbuntu, PriceChild, does the document and the above comments seem reasonable to you?
<elkbuntu> yep
<PriceChild> Yeah i really like the idea of splitting the two topics into -ops and -irc... and knowing the loco people a little more, making ourselves more obvious if needed etc.
<LjL> I think that what is being asked *from* the [support] channels is very trivial and is already being enacted in most, if not all, Ubuntu channels - Respecting the CoC, for instance, should be taken for granted.
<nalioth> LjL: looks good for now.
<LjL> nalioth?
<LjL> Here you are :-)
<LjL> Well, if there are no objections, I would like to open the #ubuntu-irc channel, assigning UbuntuIRCCouncil as its contact.
<PriceChild> Sounds like a plan... and we will write everything down in the morning...
<PriceChild> well... later this morning ;)
 * AndrewB yawns
<PriceChild> If there's nothing else.... meeting over?! :)
<Tm_T> mommy can we go home now?
<LjL> Just one thing
<LjL> I would like to invite any IRC Team members who are bilingual and who would like to volunteer helping with getting in contact with LoCo channels, whose contacts and operators may not be able to speak English, to ask me to be added to the relevant list
<LjL> (Or just add themselves, once the Wiki page is ready)
<Tm_T> LjL: as I stated earlier, count me in, en-fi and some swedish if needed
<LjL> Noted.
<LjL> With this, as far as I'm concerned we can end the meeting.
<Vorian> LjL: I can help with about 50 LoCo channels ;-)
<LjL> Vorian: US teams don't need translators, we speak English in case you didn't notice ;-P
<LjL> at least, I'm so arrogant to assume I do
<nalioth> thanks folks, for coming   :)
<nalioth> y'all take care and sleep well  :)
<elkbuntu> LjL, we speak english. they speak american
<LjL> oh right!
<Vorian> >.<
<LjL> Good night, or morning, or evening, from me too.
 * Vorian slithers away
 * elkbuntu trots off for a belated brunch
<PriceChild> gah sorry I forgot about you Vorian
<PriceChild> really sorry.... meeting was kinda hectic
<Vorian> PriceChild: no worries
<Vorian> LjL's page looks awesome
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-11-04
<MaWaLe> hi everyone
<persia> o/
<amachu> persia: Hi
<amachu> elkbuntu: TheMuso: lifeless: Hello everybody
<TheMuso> Hi folks.
<amachu> and no one for today's meeting either...
<amachu> hi
<amachu> We have CC meeting scheduled today at 21.00 UTC
<amachu> every one listening ??
<TheMuso> Yes.
<Rafik> hello all :)
<MaWaLe> yup
<Rafik> i'll try to hire one or two candidates for your next meeting ^^
<cody-somerville> :)
<MaWaLe> hi Rafik
<MaWaLe> :)
<soren> amachu: Which meeting were you referring to when you said "no one for today's meeting either"?
<Rafik> amachu, MaWaLe is currently preparing his membership
<amachu> soren: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/AsiaOceania
<soren> amachu: Ah.
<Rafik> amachu, is it possible to do his approval now ?
<MaWaLe> it'll be so great
<amachu> Rafik: Should have registered in advance, I feel
<amachu> persia: elkbuntu: TheMuso: lifeless : opinions?
<Rafik> amachu, yes I know. When I've seen there was no candidates for today. the idea came to my mind
<persia> amachu, opinions?
<amachu> persia: on what Rafik asked about taking MaWaLe
<soren> persia: Yes. a view, judgment, or appraisal formed in the mind about a particular matter.
<soren> :p
<amachu> and about the CC meeting, its too late here to present our decisions for me today.
<TheMuso> amachu: I don't mind doing someone on the spur of the moment now, but that depends on whether others want to.
<persia> Oh.  I'm happy to take more people, although I prefer the page to be prepared in advance.
<elkbuntu> i'm here
<TheMuso> persia: Agreed.
<elkbuntu> persia, i do agree. some of us like to read over candidate pages without the candidate counting the nanoseconds
<amachu> I can present it to the Community Council on 18 Nov 08. But can any one of you could do it today?
<elkbuntu> amachu, have you scribed to wikipages at all?
 * persia tends to read over candidate pages before the meeting
 * elkbuntu blinks
<elkbuntu> amachu, you're not starting *that* again, are you?
 * elkbuntu tickles amachu
<amachu> elkbuntu: which wiki pages are you referring?
<elkbuntu> amachu, the 'can we have more people' proposal etc
<amachu> elkbuntu: I lost the connection for few sec
<amachu> elkbuntu: I am saying, today we have CC meeting. But at 21.00 UTC
<elkbuntu> i realise this. i also know that the CC likes a wikipage to read over, like we want candidates to document themselves in wikipages.
<amachu> We can take up our decisions to CC if any one of you could do it, I said. I am not sure of me taking it with the CC today. But I can definitely take it on 18 Nov
<persia> I'd rather do it during our normal meeting time.
<amachu> elkbuntu: thats fine. We will take it up to the CC on Nov, 18.
<amachu> and I got reply form Belutz which I shared with the group
<amachu> zakame is yet to reply. I will try to ping him through other means.
<amachu> and anything else which any one of you would like to raise now?
<amachu> elkbuntu: persia : TheMuso : lifeless : anything else?
<elkbuntu> i'm good.
<elkbuntu> MaWaLe, i look forward to seeing your application next week.
<TheMuso> I'm fine.
<amachu> and how about Intrepid's launch parties around?
<MaWaLe> sorry : which week?
<persia> I'm good.
<amachu> MaWaLe: 11 Nov, 11.00 UTC
<Rafik> MaWaLe, you will have the time to work more you wiki page.
<MaWaLe> can i hope that the members here take a look to my Wiki page and give me some advices or just evaluate-it :)
<amachu> cool! let me call off today's meeting, then.
<amachu> Our next meeting, as said will be on 11 Nov 08, 11.00 UTC
<amachu> MaWaLe: Hmm.. worth looking to prepare questions based on wiki :-)
<amachu> persia: TheMuso : elkbuntu : Thank you for participating!
<MaWaLe> okay :so thanks and see you next week
<persia> See you next week :)
<TheMuso> Till next week.
<elkbuntu> right... clean install time
<emgent> hello there.
<emgent> @schedule rome
<ubottu> Schedule for Europe/Rome: 04 Nov 15:00: Technical Board | 04 Nov 22:00: Community Council | 05 Nov 19:00: Edubuntu | 10 Nov 19:00: LoCo Council | 18 Nov 12:00: Community Council | 21 Nov 21:00: Tunisian LoCo Team IRC
<zul> @schedule montreal
<ubottu> Schedule for America/Montreal: 04 Nov 09:00: Technical Board | 04 Nov 16:00: Community Council | 05 Nov 13:00: Edubuntu | 10 Nov 13:00: LoCo Council | 18 Nov 06:00: Community Council | 21 Nov 15:00: Tunisian LoCo Team IRC
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Technical Board Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 04 Nov 21:00: Community Council | 05 Nov 18:00: Edubuntu | 10 Nov 18:00: LoCo Council | 18 Nov 11:00: Community Council | 21 Nov 20:00: Tunisian LoCo Team IRC
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 04 Nov 21:00: Community Council | 05 Nov 18:00: Edubuntu | 10 Nov 18:00: LoCo Council | 18 Nov 11:00: Community Council | 21 Nov 20:00: Tunisian LoCo Team IRC | 02 Dec 21:00: Community Council
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 04 Nov 16:00: Server Team | 04 Nov 21:00: Community Council | 05 Nov 18:00: Edubuntu | 10 Nov 18:00: LoCo Council | 11 Nov 16:00: Server Team | 18 Nov 11:00: Community Council
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Server Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 04 Nov 21:00: Community Council | 05 Nov 18:00: Edubuntu | 10 Nov 18:00: LoCo Council | 11 Nov 16:00: Server Team | 18 Nov 11:00: Community Council
<zul> heylo
<ivoks> hi
 * mathiaz waves
<ivoks> long time no see
<sommer> hey all
 * nijaba ~
<zul> hi ivoks
 * soren tips his hat in #ubuntu-meeting's general direction
 * nijaba distinguishes a black hat being tipped
<mathiaz> allright folks - let's get this started
<mathiaz> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:00. The chair is mathiaz.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<mathiaz> Welcome to the first meeting of the Server Team in this new era of jauntyness!
<mathiaz> Today's joyfull agenda can be found online at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
<nijaba> that's a tough agenda we have today
<mathiaz> Last week's intrepid minutes: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/Server/20081028
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Server FAQ
<MootBot> New Topic:  Server FAQ
<mathiaz> sommer: nijaba: how are things moving there?
<nijaba> I worked a bit on the FAQ today
<nijaba> there are about 2/3 of the questions that needs updating
<sommer> I did some small updates last week, but it still needs work
<nijaba> I have added (needs update) in their title
<nijaba> I have also listed a few new questions at the end and a table of content
<mathiaz> nijaba: great!
<mathiaz> I'll add section to the roadmap covering the ServerFaQ
<nijaba> kirkland: could you take care of updating the raid question?
<mathiaz> [ACTION] mathiaz to add a section about updating the ServerFAQ to the Roadmap
<MootBot> ACTION received:  mathiaz to add a section about updating the ServerFAQ to the Roadmap
<kirkland> nijaba: url?
<mathiaz> nijaba: is the list of questions to be updated finalized?
<nijaba> kirkland: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ServerFaq
<mathiaz> nijaba: ie should we focus on reviewing the answer now?
<nijaba> mathiaz: unless some other new questions are added, yes
<nijaba> mathiaz: I think we can focus on the answers now, and work on them later if new questions appear
<mathiaz> nijaba: ok.
 * nijaba thinks that the answer should be made unpersonal
<mathiaz> nijaba: are there other specific topics that need input from one of us (like kirkland for raid)
<mathiaz> nijaba: ?
<nijaba> mathiaz: soem of the question name people asking questions...
<kirkland> nijaba: mathiaz: is this something that Launchpad Answers should be used for ?
<mathiaz> kirkland: I don't think so. IIUC the FAQ is a generic FAQ
<nijaba> mathiaz: not that I can think of, but will ask if sommer or I have pb answering them
<nijaba> kirkland: I think it is nice to have a "controlled" page for a FAQ
<mathiaz> kirkland: LP answers are more targeted at answering specific questions/user requests.
<kirkland> mathiaz: okay
<mathiaz> kirkland: moreover AFICT the server team is not using the LP answers.
<nijaba> sommer: how do you want to split the work?
<mathiaz> kirkland: or at least I don't know of anyone answering LP questions related to server topics.
<sommer> nijaba: doesn't matter to me... I can start at the bottom and work up
<nijaba> sommer: ok, I'll go the other way then :)
<kirkland> mathiaz: k
<mathiaz> [ACTION] sommer and nijaba to start updating the answers.
<MootBot> ACTION received:  sommer and nijaba to start updating the answers.
<mathiaz> [ACTION] kirkland to review the RAID related questions
<MootBot> ACTION received:  kirkland to review the RAID related questions
<mathiaz> nijaba: sommer: anything else on this topic?
<nijaba> nope
<sommer> nothing from me
<mathiaz> ok - anything else regarding last week's minutes?
<mathiaz> nope. Let's move on
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Ideas for Jaunty
<MootBot> New Topic:  Ideas for Jaunty
<mathiaz> As you may have noticed we're preparing for another release of Ubuntu due in six months.
<zul> yay!
<mathiaz> UDS topics are being worked on.
<mathiaz> If you've got new ideas, please add them to the ServerTeam IdeaPool.
<mathiaz> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/IdeaPool
<mathiaz> I've also purged the Roadmap
<mathiaz> There are some items which status I don't know.
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Integration of SASL and Postfix
<MootBot> New Topic:  Integration of SASL and Postfix
<mathiaz> ivoks: ^?
<ivoks> right...
<mathiaz> ivoks: is this still something being worked on/considered?
<ivoks> i'll propose solutions for this problem in early dev. phase
<ivoks> i'll have time next week
<mathiaz> ivoks: ok - so it's still on the radar
<ivoks> yes
<mathiaz> ivoks: great.
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Merges
<MootBot> New Topic:  Merges
<mathiaz> As of now, Jaunty is *not* opened.
<mathiaz> The basic toolchain and packages are still be worked on.
<mathiaz> The archive should probably open sometime this week. By then, we'll go back in merge mode!
<soren> \o/
<mathiaz> last time around, I was publishing a list of *easy* merges.
<mathiaz> I was wondering if that was a good idea
<mathiaz> what do other people thing about such a list?
<sommer> I think it's a good idea :)
 * soren too
<ivoks> (don't have strong opinion :)
<mathiaz> ok. I'll keep publishing such a list for this cycle then.
<mathiaz> well - that's all I have.
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Open discussion
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open discussion
 * mathiaz leaves the floor to crazy ideas
<zul> no crazy ideas from me this time
<ivoks> accept dbconfig-common as a standard tool for databases :D
<mathiaz> zul: you got burned by this whole FB story?
<zul> mathiaz: i didnt get any emails about it thankfully :)
<mathiaz> ivoks: isn't it already in main?
<ivoks> mathiaz: it is, but my question is 'why we don't use it? and why did i remove it from bacula?' :)
<zul> because it wasnt it main at the time
<ivoks> it wasn't?
<ivoks> ok then
<ivoks> so, we could just re-merge it back?
<zul> ivoks: pretty much
<mathiaz> ivoks: probably yes :)
<ivoks> praise the lord :)
<zul> yes praise him indeed
<mathiaz> ivoks: one of the debian devloper may be at UDS
<zul> uds or fosscamp?
<mathiaz> zul: don't know.
<nijaba> mathiaz: do we know who's been invited now?  is there a list somewhere?
<mathiaz> nijaba: there is a list *somewhere*. However I don't know where the *somewhere* is...
<nijaba> www.perdu.com ?
<soren> ?!?
<ivoks> lol
<sommer> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UDSJaunty/Attendees
<soren> "Lost on the Internet" or some such?
<nijaba> soren: yes O<--- you are here
<ivoks> soren: yes
<soren> No, I'm not. I'm over there ---> *
<ivoks> soren: don't panic, we're here to help you
<ivoks> soren: * <---- you are here
<ivoks> oh...
<ivoks> :)
<mathiaz> sommer: ok. These are mainly ubuntu members.
<mathiaz> sommer: some upstream folks have also been invited (to Fooscamp and/or UDS)
<ScottK> foos/foss
<sommer> ohh, gotcha
<ivoks> mathiaz: you'll meet kern, right?
<mathiaz> ivoks: probably
<ivoks> ok
<mathiaz> allright - so I think that's all I have to say for today's meeting
<mathiaz> I'll be running a session for OpenWeek in 1:30 hours
<mathiaz> in #ubuntu-classroom
<mathiaz> ie at 18:00 UTC
<nijaba> mathiaz: break a leg
<soren> mathiaz: About what?
<ivoks> server team?
<mathiaz> soren: the server team
<ivoks> all right! more PR :D
<soren> Awesome :)
<mathiaz> what we did for the intrepid cycle and how to get involved
<mathiaz> there are tons of other sessions and topics covered the whole week
<mathiaz> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek has more information
<mathiaz> kirkland and soren are also running a session
<mathiaz> Anything else to add?
<mathiaz> seems not
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Agree on next meeting date and time
<MootBot> New Topic:  Agree on next meeting date and time
<mathiaz> next week, same time, same place?
<ivoks> this is better time, yes
<sommer> works for me :)
<mathiaz> ivoks: better time?
<mathiaz> ivoks: it should be the same time as usual (last week being unusual)
<ivoks> mathiaz: right - it's the same :D
<mathiaz> ok - so see you all next week, same time in here.,
<kirkland> adios!
<mathiaz> Congratulations for intrepid
<mathiaz> and welcome to Jaunty!
<kirkland> \o/
<sommer> later on all
<mathiaz> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:40.
 * cking is here
<pgraner> Kernel Team Meeting... sorry its starting late google didn't adjust for DST changes *sigh*
<smb_tp> DST challenges all of us. :)
<pgraner> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 11:18. The chair is pgraner.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<pgraner> Ok... I think this will be a short meeting since Intrepid just went out....
<pgraner> [TOPIC] Post Intrepid Bug Status
<MootBot> New Topic:  Post Intrepid Bug Status
<pgraner> I'm curious to see if we have seen a influx of new bugs?
<smb_tp> Not a very high one. Only a few
<rtg> I think ogasawara has quite a list of bugs pending against Intrepid.
<pgraner> ogasawara: have you seen any any trends?
<ogasawara> pgraner: I'm seeing quite a few reports with patches
<pgraner> ogasawara: thats always nice
<ogasawara> pgraner: I've been milestoning them
<ogasawara> pgraner: most are simple fixes
<rtg> as soon as I get a -security kernel done I'm gonna start griding through the SRU patches.
<pgraner> ogasawara: I've noticed a bunch with "special keys", brightness etc...
<ogasawara> pgraner: yah, just was one about that too - bug 285323
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 285323 in gnome-power-manager "Losing keyboard and mouse control when changing screen brightness with fn + arrow under intrepid" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/285323
<ogasawara> that one has a patch though in upstream that we just need to pull
<pgraner> Since I'm rather new, how does this compare with post Hardy, same time?
<ogasawara> pgraner: post hardy I didn't see as many of these simple patches coming in post release
<ogasawara> pgraner: but I think that had something to do with Hardy being LTS so more people were testing the alpha's/beta's
<pgraner> ogasawara: ok...
<pgraner> [TOPIC] Intrepid Update/Security Kernel
<MootBot> New Topic:  Intrepid Update/Security Kernel
<ogasawara> pgraner: I'm going to try and gather some actual bug stats so will post it to the ml
<pgraner> smb_tp: Whats the plan?
<smb_tp> I am not sure if Tim jumped on it but otherwise I would take care that we have a security upadte
<smb_tp> for intrepid kernel + hardy and gutsy lum
<rtg> I'm working on the Intrepid -security update
<smb_tp> working on that tonight
<pgraner> smb_tp: whats the target for getting that out?
<smb_tp> After that I guess we should tackle the proposed updates for hardy and gutsy lum and hardy kernel
<smb_tp> I'd have to speak with kees on that but I would like to see it rather sooner than later.
<pgraner> smb_tp: I'd like to get dates set so we know what the cut off is, mostly for the updates kernel. Can you propose dates for both security and updates?
<smb_tp> pgraner, maybe I can convince him for an upload next Monday
<pgraner> smb_tp: I'm not hung up on the date as long as we have one
<smb_tp> pgraner, (that would be for security) and then the proposed a week later
<smb_tp> pgraner, so Nov 10 and 17
<pgraner> [ACTION] smb_tp to set/publish dates for security and updates kernel for affected releases
<MootBot> ACTION received:  smb_tp to set/publish dates for security and updates kernel for affected releases
<pgraner> Anyone see issues or have objections for the 10 & 17th?
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 04 Nov 21:00: Community Council | 05 Nov 18:00: Edubuntu | 10 Nov 18:00: LoCo Council | 11 Nov 16:00: Server Team | 18 Nov 11:00: Community Council | 18 Nov 16:00: Server Team
<pgraner> smb_tp: Ok then the 10th and 17th it is.
<smb_tp> pgraner, ack
<pgraner> [ACTON] Security kernel upload by 10 Nov, updates kernel upload by 17th
<pgraner> [ACTiON] Security kernel upload by 10 Nov, updates kernel upload by 17th
<MootBot> ACTION received:  Security kernel upload by 10 Nov, updates kernel upload by 17th
<pgraner> [TOPIC] RFC - RFC: Stable kernel updates and the SRU process (rtg)
<MootBot> New Topic:  RFC - RFC: Stable kernel updates and the SRU process (rtg)
<rtg> workin' on 'em
<smb_tp> I included this in the wiki page as well. Obviously I am for it
<pgraner> rtg: based on the feedback on the RFC, you propose any changes?
<rtg> pgraner: please tell what constructive feedback I received, other then complaints about process?
<rtg> as far as I can tell, the only concern is regressions.
<smb_tp> rtg, Take it as constructive feedback. :)
<rtg> so, I plan to examine each patch and do my job, which is to evaluate them on their own merits.
<pgraner> rtg: sorry I went back to revisit the thread
<amitk> rtg: so it would not be a blanket update to the latest stable?
<rtg> amitk: nope, I'm gonna write an SRU for each one.
<pgraner> rtg: I understood it to be a complete update not selective
<amitk> rtg: !!
<smb_tp> pgraner, from the comments it seemed that some wanted to blame selecive bugs if something fails
<smb_tp> But I also took it that we take everything
<rtg> there'll be a bunch for the first -proposed kernel (approx 40 I think)
<amitk> rtg: honestly I feel that writing 40 SRUs in LP will not scale
<pgraner> rtg: I'm in favor of keeping as close to the upstream source as possible, however the SRU process was not designed for that type of volume
<rtg> amitk: well, it on'y happens once early in the cycle. stable updates slow way down pretty quickly.
<smb_tp> maybe ogasawara can help s with some script magic...
<ogasawara> smb_tp: yup, I think I can probably help whip up a script to automate it
<pgraner> rtg: would that work for you?
<amitk> rtg: besides, you will have to 'invent' reasons you want to apply the patch.
<rtg> some automation wuold help, for sure.
<smb_tp> amitk, would not be "is in the stable kernel" be reason enaough
<amitk> smb_tp: then what is the point of 40 bug reports each stating "is in the stable kernel"
<rtg> amitk: pitti wants them for regression tracking.
<smb_tp> amitk, IIRC it came from heno because (in case of regression) they wanted to have seperate record
<rtg> ogasawara: so, are you gonna experiment with creating SRUs for stable updates?
<pgraner> rtg, ogasawara: lets see what we can automate and go from there?
<ogasawara> rtg: yup, I'll email when I've got something
<rtg> works for me
<pgraner> [ACTION] ogasawara to work with rtg on automating the RFC: Stable kernel updates and the SRU process
<MootBot> ACTION received:  ogasawara to work with rtg on automating the RFC: Stable kernel updates and the SRU process
<smb_tp> Ok, pitti (remembered wrong). Guess this would be a good compromise
<pgraner> [TOPIC] UDS Status & Prep
<MootBot> New Topic:  UDS Status & Prep
<pgraner> Now that the release is out, I've got a ton of UDS actions to get out this week.
<pgraner> There have been initial meetings that started Fri and have continued on this week about various cross team initiatives
<pgraner> My email to the mailing list will have the mins from those meetings (they are all on wiki.u.c) and agendas with proposed dates for the tracks
<pgraner> I'm still waiting on two more meetings to happen this week then I'll get the data together and post it
<pgraner> thats about it so far... questions?
<pgraner> Then we'll keep moving
<pgraner> [TOPIC] Open discussion/Roundtable
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open discussion/Roundtable
<pgraner> Any one have anything they want to add before we go into roundtable?
<amitk> pgraner: community invites to UDS done?
<pgraner> amitk: Yes, I've been given a link to the list, but I didn't have perms to see it, I should be able to see shortly
<pgraner> amitk: they did the initial round of invites and there were declines, and they sent out the 2nd round of invites based on the new openings, but thats all I know right now
<pgraner> On to roundtable then...
<pgraner> I am still recovering from being ill, so I'm a bit behind on things, so I'll be catching up. Other than that nothing other than biz as usual for me
<pgraner> rtg: Whats going on in your world?
<rtg> SRUs up the wazzoo, lots of wirelsss LBM work.
<rtg> uploaded an LBM yesterday.
<rtg> working on Intrepid -security update today, then back to SRUs
<rtg> full stop.
<pgraner> rtg: thanks
<pgraner> BenC is out ill today, so we will move on to amitk
<pgraner> amitk: whats up?
<amitk> Been doing Hardy SRUs for LPIA mostly
<amitk> stop
<pgraner> amitk: great, thx
<pgraner> smb_tp: go...
<smb_tp> ok then
<smb_tp> moved across the atlantic. trying to work out the pending updates for hardy and gutsy
<smb_tp> made intrepid ports for ia64  compiling
<smb_tp> thats about it
<pgraner> smb_tp: thanks
<pgraner> cking: you're next
<cking> OEM bug squishing (BIOS reboot/suspend resume and audio) and Thurs/Friday I will be attending Embedded Linux Conference
 * ogra waves to cking 
<rtg> cking has been wearing out SSDs
<ogra> :)
<cking> and I knackered a SSD doing ISO testing :-)
<pgraner> rtg: didn't he kill that SATA drive not to long ago?
<cking> stop
<cking> ..that was dead on arrival.
<rtg> pgraner: yep - he's hard on things. no more toys for Colin
 * pgraner renames cking to cking_drive-killer
<cking> :^)
<pgraner> lieb: whats up?
<rtg> pgraner: maybe he's napping?
<pgraner> we'll looks like we are missing lieb and sconklin... so I'll call it meeting end.
<pgraner> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:57.
<lieb> I'm here, just was looking aty the other screen...
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Community Council Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 05 Nov 18:00: Edubuntu | 10 Nov 18:00: LoCo Council | 11 Nov 16:00: Server Team | 18 Nov 11:00: Community Council | 18 Nov 16:00: Server Team
<nealmcb> Hmm - I guess there is no Community Council Meeting - scheduled to start 10 minutes ago:     Start: 2008-11-04 21:00 End: 2008-11-04 23:00 Timezone: Etc/GMT Location: #ubuntu-meeting The agenda still says The next meeting is scheduled for 21 October 2008, 11:00 UTC ....  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda
<cody-somerville> hmmm
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 05 Nov 18:00: Edubuntu | 10 Nov 18:00: LoCo Council | 11 Nov 16:00: Server Team | 18 Nov 11:00: Community Council | 18 Nov 16:00: Server Team | 21 Nov 20:00: Tunisian LoCo Team IRC
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-11-05
<james_w> hi all
<liw> hi
<TheMuso> Hey folks.
<cjwatson> good afternoon
<robbiew> hi
<cjwatson> everyone but evand and doko here
<cjwatson> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:02. The chair is cjwatson.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<mvo> hi
<cjwatson> [TOPIC] Introductions
<MootBot> New Topic:  Introductions
<cjwatson> so, post-8.10, first order of business is to introduce new members of the team
<robbiew> I suppose that would be me
<cjwatson> robbiew joins as the new foundations team manager, and mvo joins us from the desktop team
 * mvo waves
 * robbiew waves also
<cjwatson> please make them welcome and help them find their feet as necessary
<james_w> welcome mvo
<james_w> welcome robbiew
<liw> welcome, mvo and robbiew
<evand> hi
<cjwatson> I should probably hand over to Robbie at this point :-) Really the only other thing I had for this meeting was the 9.04 roadmap
<robbiew> I don't have much, as this is my first meeting...
<cjwatson> [LINK] https://wiki.canonical.com/UbuntuPlatform/Roadmaps/9.04
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.canonical.com/UbuntuPlatform/Roadmaps/9.04
<cjwatson> we are currently in the process of discussing requirements for a number of the bullet points there, and will be pulling several of you into calls
<cjwatson> but, as usual, a lot of things will come from ourselves
<james_w> that's quite a long list :-)
<mvo> I suspect its getting even longer when we collect our ideas as well :)
<james_w> if we have ideas for items, or UDS topics, where do we go with them?
<cjwatson> robbiew: what do you want to do by way of collecting internal ideas? mail, wiki, ...?
<robbiew> wiki is probably best
<liw> which one?
<robbiew> what would be the best location?
<robbiew> under Foundations team on ubuntu wiki?
<robbiew> or internally?
<cjwatson> either's fine, probably best on the Ubuntu wiki
<robbiew> right, no reason to keep internal
<robbiew> how was this done for Intrepid?
<cjwatson> ISTR I gathered items by e-mail and worked them into the agenda myself
<cjwatson> it wasn't optimal
<cjwatson> something on the wiki would be better, though it'll still need to be gardened into something resembling a coherent list of topics for UDS
<robbiew> right...is there a preferred location under /FoundationsTeam
<cjwatson> nope, create one :-)
<robbiew> ok...will send out the link after the meeting
<cjwatson> the major things that I think are likely to affect everyone are a push for machine-readable copyright files (probably per the Debian proposal, although exact details still to be fleshed out) and a general bug-fixing initiative
<liw> cjwatson, copyright files > which packages would this affect? all?
<cjwatson> the former doesn't very exciting, but a number of customers report that it's a pretty big deal for their legal departments to have to read /usr/share/doc/*/copyright ...
<mvo> bug fixiing++
<cjwatson> liw: at a minimum, everything in main
<cjwatson> (you may say "yow" now)
<liw> cjwatson, that's still a large number... sounds like doing it in collaboration with Debian would be good, for keeping the delta small
<robbiew> with this and bug fixing, it's hard to see everything on the Roadmap getting done in time
<cjwatson> yeah, that's why we're looking at the Debian proposal, which has already got some adoption
<liw> . o O (Ubuntu could NMU all Debian packages in one go)
<cjwatson> we're due a call to figure out the scope of a big bug-fixing push; essentially, this is coming out of an awareness that there are a lot of reasonably complex problems in the bug tracking system that have never quite made it up to the level of feature work and so we've never had time to fix them
<liw> cjwatson, as I understand it, the Debian proposal is not utterly finalized yet (just practically so), so if we have additional needs, it'd be possible to get the proposal fixed, I assume
<cjwatson> however, doing it right means figuring out a sensible list of targets, and figuring out how to measure how well we're doing
<cjwatson> please drop me a mail if you have any personal targets you'd like to hit but have never had the time
<cjwatson> it's not worth doing a half-hearted job of, IMO ...
<robbiew> cjwatson: is this bug fixing effort only for our team? should/would Desktop and Kernel be included?
<cjwatson> robbiew: Ubuntu-wide
<cjwatson> we brought it up a few months ago and got tentative general approval
<robbiew> Ok, so I'm thinking I should setup a call with the various team managers and tech leads
<cjwatson> that's Thursday's call :)
<robbiew> ;)
<robbiew> right..thanks
<cjwatson> liw: proposal> right
<robbiew> cjwatson: should probably look at the "Dennis" project bugs for this effort as well
<cjwatson> perhaps, though I'm not sure how many of those affect this team
<robbiew> right
<cjwatson> anyway, I'm done
<cjwatson> [TOPIC] AOB
<MootBot> New Topic:  AOB
<robbiew> AOB?
<TheMuso> Any other business.
<liw> (Any Other Business)
<robbiew> ah..thanks
 * robbiew comes from IBM, so knows too many acronyms...just not that one ;)
<mvo> not sure if that should be part of this meeting, what do you think bug #292179 is worth a string break (evms removal)?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 292179 in update-manager "Intrepid upgrade removed EVMS but should not have allowed upgrade" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/292179
<mvo> (string break via SRU)
<mvo> (or rather a string addition for the case when evms is in use)
<cjwatson> looking
<mvo> basiclly its about if /proc/mounts contain evms should we abort the upgrade (I think yes) with a error or do it and keep evms installed (but unmaintained becuase its not longer in intrepid)
<slangasek> what, no autoconverting evms volumes on the fly to lvm2?
 * mvo notices that he uses a lot of () today
<cjwatson> I'm inclined to say that the severity of the bug is such that it trumps the risk of an untranslated message
<mvo> slangasek: ha! that is a plan
<mvo> cjwatson: yeah, my feeling too
<slangasek> I agree
<mvo>  especially since the string will only shown to a very small subset of users (that are affected by the problem)
<mvo> thanks, I will do that then
 * robbiew didn't know people still used evms
<james_w> how is Intrepid looking? Is the upsurge in bug reports higher than for other releases? Are the more SRUs?
<liw> should the division of duties between cjwatson and robbiew be explained?
<cjwatson> https://wiki.canonical.com/TechnicalLead
<cjwatson> exactly how this shakes out in practice we'll have to see; I suspect that task allocation in particular will be a bit of a joint effort
<cjwatson> but I'll do what Robbie tells me to do here :)
<robbiew> heh...too bad there's no /Manager page
<liw> cjwatson, I meant, in public, for the community, or do they not need to care?
<evand> Who do our activity reports go to?
<robbiew> me
<evand> ok, noted
<cjwatson> liw: I hope it isn't important
<TheMuso> I don't think its important.
<mvo> james_w: intrepid is looking ok AFAICT from the stuff I looked at
<robbiew> cjwatson: do you want to be cc'd on activity reports?
<james_w> mvo: cool, I know you see a lot of the incoming reports from upgrades, so that's good news.
<cjwatson> robbiew: I don't mind; I can be if you think it's useful
<robbiew> cjwatson: right...as lead, I'm thinking you should be kept in the loop
<mvo> james_w: there are still problem and some tricky looking issues, but overall it really looks ok
<cjwatson> ok
<cjwatson> bug 293586 is sort of embarrassing
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 293586 in busybox "lack of CONFIG_GETOPT_LONG in busybox-udeb completely breaks Kickstart" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/293586
<cjwatson> that's a QA failure on our part :-/
<robbiew> all: so send the activity report to me, but cc cjwatson
<TheMuso> robbiew: Will do as of my next report.
<evand> Perhaps we should add kickstart and regular preseeding to the CD testing?  Though that would make the already time consuming tests even longer.
<cjwatson> it seems like one of those things that should be tested occasionally, if not necessarily every time
 * slangasek nods
<mvo> could we make that automatic?
<mvo> I mean, kickstart sounds like its a good target for a autotest?
<liw> evand, otoh, shouldn't those kinds of tests be almost completely automatable: you start them, and then don't need to bother with them until they are finished (unlike the usual kinds of tests, that require constant attention)
<cjwatson> mvo: yes, I'd hope so
<cjwatson> I'll mail heno and ask
<evand> I had toyed around with the idea of doing automated install testing with KVM, but alas I do not have a server that supports it
<mvo> I have good success with my auto-upgrade test setup with kvm, its not perfect, but found some issues for me that would have otherwise be found by users
<evand> mvo: just out of curiosity, is the code to support that public?
<mvo> evand: yes, part of the update-manager bzr tree
<cjwatson> mvo: is there any way to get keystrokes into it? We'd need something along those lines to boot the installer with the right kernel parameters
<evand> neat, thanks
<cjwatson> or I suppose we could just use the kernel and initrd rather than booting a CD
<mvo> evand: for this cycle I want to make a proper package out of it so that it actually get some outside attention
<evand> cjwatson: kernel and initrd> that's what I was successfully doing on my desktop
<mvo> cjwatson: keystrokes> I *think* so, there is a monitor interface that is quite capable that can be driven via stdio
<mvo> cjwatson: yep, the monitor supports the "sentkey" command
<mvo> the only big problem I found is the lack of reliable savevm/loadvm in kvm
<mvo> otherwise it would be really perfect
<cjwatson> ok, that's cool
<mvo> (for my needs)
<mvo> hm, you can even do mouse_move mouse_button events with it
<cjwatson> anyway, it sounds like we're done and can continue this elsewhere, unless robbiew has any objections
<mvo> yes, sorry for getting carried away
<robbiew> nope
<cjwatson> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:43.
<liw> thanks
<james_w> cjwatson: any thought about the Debian RC bugs idea?
<TheMuso> Thanks.
<evand> thanks
<cjwatson> robbiew: mootbot produces logs like those at http://www.novarata.net/mootbot/ (I think there's an upload delay though)
 * TheMuso goes back to bed.
<cjwatson> james_w: oh, I'd forgotten about that
<slangasek> thanks, all
<mvo> thanks
<robbiew> cjwatson: ok, thx
<liw> james_w, Debian RC bugs?
<cjwatson> James had proposed that since Debian won't really be exciting until lenny releases, we put a bit of effort into helping both it and ourselves by resolving RC bugs
<cjwatson> http://bts.turmzimmer.net/details.php?bydist=both&sortby=packages&ignmerged=on&new=7&refresh=1800
<cjwatson> I don't think I got round to talking with anyone else about it at the release sprint, unfortunately
<robbiew> cjwatson: with such a large list for Jaunty...bug fixes...and UDS topics still not settled...will there be time?
<cjwatson> I'll mail it out to team leads for discussion tomorrow, how about that?
<cjwatson> robbiew: most of these represent bugs in Ubuntu too, but point taken
<james_w> cjwatson: thanks
<james_w> I want to propose a "Debian RC bugs day" to the motu team where we get stuck in for a day, but it's a couple of weeks until I have the time to participate myself
<ara> hello everybody
<heno> hey all!
<pedro_> hello folks
 * ogasawara waves
<bdmurray> hi
<sbeattie>  hey
<heno> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 11:00. The chair is heno.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<heno> Congratulations everyone on a successful release!
<stgraber> hey there
<heno> The testing was quite hectic at the end but it seems we got there :)
<stgraber> yeah, fun last iso testing night :)
<heno> Agenda as usual here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Meetings
 * stgraber grabs some food (lunch time here)
<heno> [TOPIC] Identifying and dealing with regressions in a -proposed package. While most information should end up in the SRU bug report should new bug reports be tagged regression-proposed? Should these start being tracked?
<MootBot> New Topic:  Identifying and dealing with regressions in a -proposed package. While most information should end up in the SRU bug report should new bug reports be tagged regression-proposed? Should these start being tracked?
<bdmurray> There was some discussion about this in #ubuntu-bugs the other day and it was suggested that we use regression-proposed to identify these.
<sbeattie> I think it would be reasonable to track these with a tag.
<stgraber> +1
<pedro_> yes, could those be added to the sru tracker page somewhere?
<heno> Usually a regression found in an SRU candidate should block it's move to updates
<pedro_> btw does anyone still have issues with sbeattie sru page?
<bdmurray> sbeattie: Comments about epic failures should happen in the SRU bug though, correct?
<heno> at which point it's not a regression
<pedro_> it's way slow here :-(
<sbeattie> But it needs to be made explicit that regression should also be mentioned in the original SRU bug as well.
<sbeattie> pedro_: it's sometimes slow to render and I'm not sure why.
<sbeattie> bdmurray: correct
<heno> what would be a typical use case for this?
<schwuk> Hi
<heno> a proposed update that we object to on the grounds of a discovered regression? is that what we are tagging?
<sbeattie> heno: yes
<bdmurray> The situation that came up is that someone submitted a bug about a -proposed package for unknown reasons...
<heno> Is the purpose to track historically how many SRUs were put forward with regressions in them or to have a list of currently blocked SRUs?
<bdmurray> So tagging these bugs would allow the SRU verification team to find these regression-proposed bugs that the bugsquad has identified.
<heno> bdmurray: oic, this would be a tab for new bugs filed against -proposed packages, not the SRU bug itself
<heno> that makes sense
<bdmurray> Ideally, this shouldn't happen as the person running the -proposed should know which bug to comment on but you never know.
<ogasawara> on a similar note, the kernel team has now decided to open 1 SRU bug report for each 2.6.27.y upstream stable kernel patch set.  any regressions will warrant a new bug being opened for that regression.
<ogasawara> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/kernel-team/2008-November/003406.html
<sbeattie> ogasawara: that sounds reasonable
<heno> ok, looks like we are agreed. Let's add regression-proposed to the regression tracking description page
<heno> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/RegressionTracking
<bdmurray> and update the EnableProposed page with the tag and commenting on the SRU bug
<heno> sbeattie: will you do that?
<sbeattie> yes, can you #action it?
<heno> [ACTION] sbeattie to update RegressionTracking and EnableProposed wiki pages with regression-proposed info
<MootBot> ACTION received:  sbeattie to update RegressionTracking and EnableProposed wiki pages with regression-proposed info
<heno> [TOPIC] Hardy SRU Verifications still a lot to do and a really old ones (~100 days)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Hardy SRU Verifications still a lot to do and a really old ones (~100 days)
<heno> We are processing Intrepid SRUs now, but there are still some Hardy SRUs outstanding
<sbeattie> We got behind there due to focusing on intrepid, but I expect to start making progress on them again.
<ara> I have a machine with a partition with Hardy, I could give some help clearing that up
<sbeattie> ara: that would be great!
<heno> ara: that would be great!
<ara> sbeattie, heno: are you the same person?
<pedro_> dude you're so connected :-P
<sbeattie> I'm giving an open week session tomorrow on SRU verifications, I'll also solicit for assistance there.
<heno> anyone else who can lend a hand, that would be appreciated too!
<sbeattie> ara: I think you just insulted heno. :-)
<pedro_> if someone could take bug 204133, that'd be really neat, that's the oldest bug there, 118 days old
<heno> sbeattie: no, no. no worries :)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 204133 in wubi/8.04 "wubi install unusable - Buffer I/O error on device loop0" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/204133
<heno> it does look like a pure copy and paste though :)
<heno> let's ask davmor to look at that when he returns
<heno> our resident wubi test expert
<bdmurray> I don't see a test case right away
<bdmurray> It might make more sense to follow up with agostino and see what the status is / what needs to happen.
<bdmurray> I'll do that since I reported the original bug. ;-)
<heno> I suspect it needs to be release before the 8.04.2 respin
<heno> bdmurray: ok, thanks
<heno> openldap is old too
<sbeattie> heno: good point, I'll milestone it.
<heno> and python-apt
<heno> sbeattie, ara: We've talked about runing an SRU testing day. Should we schedule that?
<heno> (do others agree it's good idea?)
<ara> heno: historically testing days are Mondays
<bdmurray> sbeattie: you are giving a class at openweek right?
<ara> (with a history of 3)
<ara> :)
<sbeattie> bdmurray: yes, tomorrow
<bdmurray> perhaps capitalizing on that with a SRU day afterwards would be good
<heno> this might be a good time, as we don't have ISOs to test
<heno> bdmurray: good point
<heno> ara: could you coordinate with sbeattie on a basic plan for the day and announce it?
<sbeattie> ara: how much prep work did you do for the testing days?
<pedro_> make sure to add it to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugDay/Planning aswell ;-)
<ara> sbeattie: some doc preparation and wiki update
<ara> sbeattie: blogging and some spam on the lists
<ara> heno: yes, sure
<heno> [ACTION] ara and sbeattie to plan an SRU testing day for Monday
<MootBot> ACTION received:  ara and sbeattie to plan an SRU testing day for Monday
<heno> cool!
<ara> heno: next Monday I am on holidays, though :(
<ara> heno: but I can help with the prep work
<ara> heno: and the post work
<heno> ara: ok thanks. We can run it in your absence :)
<heno> sbeattie and I work as one ;)
<heno> [TOPIC] Application test cases
<MootBot> New Topic:  Application test cases
<heno> There were some posts on planet about this yesterday and we've seen some new test case contributions
<heno> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Applications
<heno> It's good to see new contributions here though we need to merge it with the content here https://testcases.qa.ubuntu.com/Ubuntu/Applications
<cr3> mpt mentionned that having a second website for test cases might cause duplication or desynchronization between the two
<heno> The migration to the test case wiki was left hanging a bit during release, but we should pick it up again
<schwuk> How are we going to handle redirection once we move to the new wiki?
<heno> cr3: we are seeing some of that confusion now, but I think we should migrate all the cases over to the testcases wiki
<heno> schwuk: redirect of just old test case URLs or WRT to the iso tracker?
<schwuk> heno: the old URLS
<LaserJock> heno: is there a particular reason to have a separate wiki for test cases?
<ara> schwuk: I would change the pages to "there is a new test case wiki, please visit http:..."
<ara> schwuk: redirecting will refrain people to know that there is a new one
<maco_> sorry guys, i didnt know that wiki existed :(
<ara> schwuk: and they could keep adding new test cases to the old one
<heno> schwuk: adding a note about the new wiki on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Cases should do - I don't think we need to redirect all the pages
<heno> pages in wikis move around and are deleted all the time; people are used to that
<cr3> I'm not used to that, but that's just me :)
<heno> LaserJock: it is so we can give it more structure, add custom macros, lock down pages that we then parse to generate scripts automatically, etc
<heno> there are good reasons, we're just not there yet
<LaserJock> just wondered, as Ubuntu has a bit of a wiki-mania problem ;-)
<cr3> here here!
<heno> ara: will you pick up the page migration effort again? please coordinate with davmor and the new contributors
<ara> heno: yes. I have already talked with davmor about it. We are working on it
<heno> ara: excellent, thanks
<heno> (no action item required then)
<heno> [TOPIC] Meting times (post DST change)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Meting times (post DST change)
<stgraber> yeah, basically I'd like to avoid QA meeting on my lunch time :)
<ara> "no, no please" would sound too pathetic?
<stgraber> an hour before or an hour after would be great, or any other time (we can discuss it)
<bdmurray> "no, no please" not before
<ara> :)
<heno> an hour before is 8.00am in Portland
<sbeattie> bdmurray: c'mon 8am meetings are fun.
<heno> ara: your 'no, no' was about an hour after?
<ara> heno: yes. i was soooooo happy about DST!
<heno> I would also prefer not to shift it later because we have another meeting after this too
<stgraber> ara: yeah, so was I ... but I need a workaround for the next 6 months :)
<pedro_> i would prefer no not shift ;-)
<heno> stgraber: can you change your lunch time once a week?
<pedro_> stgraber: lunch time was an issue for me previously to the DST :-P
<stgraber> heno: not really, we usually go out for lunch and I can't hardly ask everyone in the company to change the lunch time :(
<maco> pack a lunch one day?
<stgraber> well, I can probably read the log afterwards though and deal with the few items I have by mail
<stgraber> except the ISO testing and approving/declining members, I'm not that much involved in the QA team anyway
<heno> stgraber: also feel free to catch me or other team members on phone or skype at other times
<stgraber> ok
<heno> Seems there is a majority vote too keep the current meeting time (UTC)
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Edubuntu Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 10 Nov 18:00: LoCo Council | 11 Nov 16:00: Server Team | 18 Nov 11:00: Community Council | 18 Nov 16:00: Server Team | 21 Nov 20:00: Tunisian LoCo Team IRC
<heno> any other business?
<heno> ok, thanks everyone!
<heno> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:51.
<pedro_> thanks
<ara> thanks!
<LaserJock> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 12:01. The chair is LaserJock.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<LaserJock> ok, who all is here for the Edubuntu meeting?
 * morgs is
<benoitstandre> is
<stgraber> hello
<LaserJock> welcome morgs and benoitstandre
<dfarning> Dfarning from Sugar Labs
<stgraber> hey benoitstandre :)
<tomeu> hi all, I'm a sugar dev
<tomeu> (though may need to leave soon)
<LaserJock> ok, our meeting agenda is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/Community/MeetingAgenda
<LaserJock> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/Community/MeetingAgenda
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/Community/MeetingAgenda
<LaserJock> ok, so it's awesome to see Sugar people here
<LaserJock> I hadn't expected that, cool
 * morgs is a Sugar person too
<tomeu> why not? we love ubuntu too!
<LaserJock> well, we just haven't had many Sugar people in the past
<maco> hrm where's lfaraone?
<LaserJock> so awesome
<dfarning> There are a lot of schools using ubuntu, We would like to be a part of that!
 * morgs pings lfaraone
<LaserJock> morgs: ok, so since we have all the Sugar people here perhaps we should start with your menu item?
<morgs> OK cool
<LaserJock> [TOPIC] Introduction of the Sugar environment
<MootBot> New Topic:  Introduction of the Sugar environment
<morgs> Sugar is the educational platform / user interface originally developed for One Laptop Per Child, now operating as a separate upstream project under the governance of Sugar Labs.
<morgs> We have packages for pretty much the latest stable version in Intrepid (although Debian was a bit behind so there are some packages not completely up to date, but good enough...)
<morgs> We have a team to work on the packaging: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SugarTeam
<morgs> I've been talking to Nubae about LTSP and he got that working with Sugar, so that's a point of interest.
<LaserJock> cool
<stgraber> yeah, I got it working on LTSP too (running on the application server, nubae is more focused on having it as fat client)
<morgs> So, we'd like to see how we can integrate with Edubuntu / Ubuntu for Education.
<LaserJock> ok, very interesting
<morgs> Also, we'd like to get more people involved in packaging, testing, etc
<tomeu> developing... ;)
<LaserJock> ok, well I think for sure it would be great to partner with the Sugar Team on packaging
<morgs> tomeu: oh, that too :)
<dfarning> promoting and deploying:)
<morgs> I lead the Sugar Team but am also an upstream developer
<highvoltage> howdy
<LaserJock> how large is whole sugar environment in terms of disk space
<LaserJock> ?
<tomeu> just testing alone will be awesome
<tomeu> hmm
<tomeu> LaserJock: fedora jffs2 images (compressed) take 250MB, I think
<tomeu> that's the whole OS, though
<LaserJock> wow, pretty big
<LaserJock> ok, so I have a couple questions about Sugar in general, as I haven't followed it a whole lot
<tomeu> LaserJock: sugar itself is quite small, but uses pygtk, dbus, etc
<highvoltage> sugar isn't suitable for general desktop use, is it? I know of a person who wanted to roll out LTSP labs running sugar on the desktops, but I initially advised them not to, since it seems to rely on programs being sugarised?
<LaserJock> I know Sugar mostly as the OLPC OS
<LaserJock> what does Sugar offer to desktop users?
<LaserJock> going along the lines of what highvoltage just said
<tomeu> highvoltage: yeah, non-sugarised programs don't run very well yet, but is a goal for the current release to improve that
<highvoltage> tomeu: that's good to hear
<tomeu> sugar offers an environment focused in education
<tomeu> quite a bunch of activities
<tomeu> activities being sugarized apps
<tomeu> with colaboration, a journal where kids can reflect about their past work, etc
<dfarning> highvoltage: Sugar is designed for education - the key advantage of Sugar in a learning envirnment is the build in collaboration
<morgs> http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Activities/All lists almost all known "activities"
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Activities/All lists almost all known "activities"
<tomeu> in a school lab, I see kids choosing to log into gnome, kde or sugar
<highvoltage> ah
<LaserJock> ok, so at this point we are looking at kids running Sugar in Ubuntu
<tomeu> sugar is a bit more ambitious, though. we aim to provide a desktop anybody would be interested in using
<LaserJock> before it was so developers could develop for Sugar, not end-user ready
<tomeu> but for now brings more value to kids
<tomeu> and perhaps older people
<morgs> Collaboration is a feature of the platform, which provides easy access to mechanisms for data sharing which can be used for synchronous collaboration. For example, we have a word processor which is shared in real time like gobby.
<tomeu> yeah, kids should be able to use it quite profitably now
<LaserJock> ok, so it seems to me that there are 2 large scale tasks then
<LaserJock> 1) get Sugar into Main/Edubuntu
<LaserJock> 2) make sure Sugar works well with LTSP
<morgs> The Journal is used instead of a file manager, and offers a time line view on activities used at different times. There's no concept of loading and saving, file names or "where did I put that file?" It's all searchable.
<stgraber> LaserJock: 2) just needs a correct ejabberd setup, 1) is just an apt-get install away
<morgs> stgraber: intrepid ejabberd works unpatched, with minor config file tweaks
<LaserJock> ok, one point I know of is etoys
<LaserJock> which requires Squeak
<LaserJock> which we don't today have a free Squeak
<highvoltage> ejabberd could be shipped with the edubuntu add-on, along with some configurations that will work out of the box if someone want to do it so
<tomeu> yeah, that's a pity :/
<tomeu> etoys
<LaserJock> is etoys essential to Sugar?
<morgs> Right, the license is being worked on - for Fedora as well - and hopefully we can ship squeak in the near future.
<tomeu> scratch is also quite cool, but also requires squeak
<LaserJock> right
<tomeu> LaserJock: not essential
<morgs> Not essential, but it is a major feature
<tomeu> just one more activity, but a cool one
<LaserJock> ok, well if we can kind of work on those in parallel it's good
<morgs> The major issue we had with packaging for intrepid was that the debian packaging is done by basically one person - Jonas Smedegaard - and he was a bit behind the stable releases so we couldn't sync the latest in.
<LaserJock> I just don't want Sugar to hang on Squeak, because as the defacto Ubuntu Squeak guys, it's a mess
<LaserJock> *guy
<morgs> It doesn't depend on squeak, only etoys depends on that
<LaserJock> ok, but it's something we should look at
<morgs> we can use squeak if/when it lands.
<tomeu> yeah, etoys brings lots of value to sugar
<tomeu> but we have already lots of interesting activities, most of them based on python
<LaserJock> ok, so does the Sugar team sort of want to be part of the larger Edubuntu project?
<benoitstandre> I think that Skeak / etoys are a separate thing from Sugar
<LaserJock> similar to what LTSP has become
<LaserJock> or do you want it to be sort of less "close"
<tomeu> LaserJock: can you expand on the relationship between LTSP and Edubuntu?
<tomeu> LaserJock: we should try to be neutral regarding distros
<LaserJock> currently LTSP is a major part of the Edubuntu landscape
<tomeu> as an example, RH is a very important partner of us
<LaserJock> right right
<morgs> LaserJock: working with Edubuntu certainly makes sense. We might want to produce our own LiveCD or something like that, without depending on LTSP
<highvoltage> there have been some local people who have been using edubuntu asking me lots of questions about sugar. it will be nice if it was easily available as an additional session for the real young kids.
<LaserJock> I'm not saying Sugar upstream should be in Edubuntu
<tomeu> but we know edubuntu is doing cool stuff, and would love to ride that wave
<highvoltage> I think edubuntu can provide a very large test-user base for sugar
<LaserJock> I'm just saying, should Sugar in *Ubuntu* be done as a part of Edubuntu
<morgs> tomeu: Sugar team = Ubuntu Sugar Team in this context...
<tomeu> highvoltage: right, that will have a great impact soon
<LaserJock> morgs: right
<LaserJock> sorry for that
<LaserJock> I should have been more clear
<tomeu> ooh
<tomeu> sorry then
<LaserJock> for instance, we have an Edubuntu Bugsquad team
 * tomeu is just a poor code with little time for anything else
<LaserJock> we could add sugar packages to our "radar"
<LaserJock> we can also provide sponsorship for package uploads, etc.
<morgs> tomeu! You're 33.3% of the upstream Sugar development team :)
<LaserJock> I could imagine the Ubuntu Sugar Team as a sub-team of Edubuntu
<morgs> LaserJock: that's awesome. Perhaps we can work out the details in separate discussions.
<LaserJock> but I don't want to presume that on the Sugar Team
<LaserJock> I think Sugar could be very exciting to Edubuntu users
<LaserJock> and vice versa
<highvoltage> LaserJock is a core-dev, if anyone didn't know that. So he's available to use and abuse for sponsoring packages :)
<morgs> "It's An Education Project" :)
<LaserJock> morgs: would you be able to drive some Sugar discussions on edubuntu-devel? so we can define things a bit more?
<morgs> LaserJock: Sure.
<dfarning> LaserJock: becoming a closer part of Edubuntu would be great, but we want to make sure that using Sugar is _a_ choice.  In the past we have been heavy handed in declaring that sugar is _the choice.
<LaserJock> [ACTION] morgs to start discussion of integrating the Ubuntu Sugar Team and Sugar packages into Edubuntu
<MootBot> ACTION received:  morgs to start discussion of integrating the Ubuntu Sugar Team and Sugar packages into Edubuntu
<LaserJock> dfarning: oh for sure
<LaserJock> we're not dropping things here
<LaserJock> but giving a new choice to Edubuntu users, IMO
<dfarning> LaserJock: great
<highvoltage> for sure.
<benoitstandre> I agree with dfarning. In the schools we deploy (ed)Buntu, Sugar would be a choice, specially for the beginning of the primary cycle
<LaserJock> we just want to make sure that people can get at it and most importantly that it works well on an Edubuntu
<LaserJock> machine
<tomeu> we can talk about displacing the other desktops in a couple of years ;)
<benoitstandre> but probably not going further, at least not in mixed environments as they are now
<LaserJock> tomeu: world domination, one step at a time ;-)
<LaserJock> ok, awesome
<LaserJock> let's maybe move on though as our agenda is huge
<morgs> Thanks LaserJock
<LaserJock> and we should continue discussion on edubuntu-devel and edubuntu-users
<morgs> +1
<highvoltage> morgs: we should also get together sometime to discuss edubuntu stuff when I'm back in town
<LaserJock> [TOPIC]Should Edubuntu have a strategy document?
<MootBot> New Topic: Should Edubuntu have a strategy document?
<morgs> highvoltage: yeah
<LaserJock> ok, so I'd like to sort of start discussion about the future of Edubuntu and what it will look like
<LaserJock> I was really impressed by Cody Somerville's job on the Xubuntu Strategy Document
<highvoltage> LaserJock: have you put any thought into whether a xubuntu-like strategy document... ah, you beat me to it
<LaserJock> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Specifications/Intrepid/StrategyDocument
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Specifications/Intrepid/StrategyDocument
<LaserJock> so ^^ is the doc that Cody did
<LaserJock> I think we probably don't need quite so much
<LaserJock> but it very nicely lays out the goals and objectives of the project
<LaserJock> and how it's going to get there
<LaserJock> what are people's feelings on this?
<highvoltage> I like how they have long-term goals and how it's broken up into what's doable for the next release
<highvoltage> it would be nice imo if Edubuntu also had some goals wrt usability.
<highvoltage> usability for adults is not also the same as usability for kids
<LaserJock> one problem for Edubuntu is that it's a niche target, but not exactly a well defined target
<LaserJock> we say it's Linux for Education
<LaserJock> but what is "Education"? who does that include? what are their needs? ...
<LaserJock> so I think some direction in terms of what Edubuntu is really trying to accomplish would be good
<stgraber> +1
<benoitstandre> as I see it from the "outside" , education is a lot related to "games", at least in the packages that are put upfront
<highvoltage> it is indeed. many people also see it in terms of administration or functionality.
<LaserJock> so for a couple minutes I'd like to get your opinions on what Education is and what Edubuntu's targets and goals should be
<benoitstandre> a kind of things I think is missing for example now would be nice templates that are usable in classroom and being installed by default
<highvoltage> in terms of administration, for example, I've known teachers who said that they refuse to use it in their labs unless it has some kind of content filtering system
<LaserJock> so in terms of tasks I kind of see 3 areas: learning, teaching, administrating
<benoitstandre> I think the main Edubuntu goals would be the usability in the classrooms
<highvoltage> I wish we had more educators providing feedback and saying what they want. then it could be scaled and moulded into something that could go into a roadmap
<LaserJock> highvoltage: "build it and they will come" :-)
<benoitstandre> I'm an educator :-)
<highvoltage> heh
<kaingeo> I want an easy installation of Ubuntu LTSP Server
<highvoltage> benoitstandre: ooh, great. I agree with you about usability
<nubae> well, content filtering is a moral/political issue
<LaserJock> nubae: but it's an issue
<benoitstandre> problem is, depending on the task force we have, I think we should put our efforts in areas that are specific to educaiton
<nubae> yeah but it would slow down the server considerably.... are we talking about it being installed by default?
<stgraber> kaingeo: what's that difficult at the moment ? (choosing an option in the installer)
<LaserJock> nubae: no, having a good one available
<nubae> dansguardian+squid or squidguard+squid
<benoitstandre> content filtering, for example, is needed to work flawlessly not only in education but also in corporate environments. Couldn't Edubuntu be closely working with server-team for that ?
<highvoltage> nubae: I think it should probably be as flexible as possible, so if an educator would like to run some of the management stuff on a seperate server, it shouldn't be too difficult to do
<nubae> right, in larger scenarios the filtering will definitely be seperated
<LaserJock> benoitstandre: I think, but could be totally wrong, that corporates tend to go with a bit different approach
<LaserJock> but that's a good point
<LaserJock> maybe we should talk to the Server Team about that
<LaserJock> Edubuntu does have a start on a pretty nice content filter, willowng
<highvoltage> it would be a nice 'task' on the ubuntu server disc
<dfarning> Thanks everyone - got to run!
<LaserJock> but it needs to be maintained and developed
<LaserJock> dfarning: thanks for coming
<LaserJock> darn
<nubae> there are plenty howtos on content filtering, I think the howtos should be easily available via the website
<ogra> nubae, the thing is that most implementations really suck
<LaserJock> yeah
<rockstar> I've never used willowng, but dansguardian+squid is quite complicated.
<LaserJock> rockstar: yes, that is a big issue
<LaserJock> people just want to flip a switch and get content fiiltering
<ogra> willowng was supposed to make that easier by using a bayesian filter to match bad content
<nubae> its not THAT hard...
<rockstar> Yes.  I've experimented with OpenDNS as well, to no real avail.
<ogra> sadly only white and blacklisting works atm
<ogra> openDNS sadly breaks with all RFCs out there
<highvoltage> so maybe on of the Edubuntu goals should be to simplify installations of really large and complicated but equally useful software so that educators could easily deploy and use it?
<ogra> things like nebding your dns to localhost are not the solution
<highvoltage> opendns can be quite annoying
<nubae> highvoltage: yeah
<rockstar> highvoltage, +1
<ogra> someone should finally finish willowng
<highvoltage> ogra: what's it written in?
<LaserJock> ogra: yeah, we shouldn't waste that effort
<nubae> the problem with all the ones I've used and tested is they are slow
<ogra> python
<rockstar> Maybe that does need to be a goal of Edubuntu: a package that can just be installed and off you go.
<benoitstandre> In my opinion, Edubuntu needs to focus a lot on the usage by the childrens and teachers of the software
<stgraber> yeah, content filtering is a spec we have since what 2 years ? It'd really need someone to implement
<nubae> it slows down webpages by several seconds
<ogra> rockstar, thats how it works right now ... its just not complete
<LaserJock> ok, perhaps we shouldn't get too bogged down into content filtering discussions
<rockstar> ogra, you mean willowng?
<benoitstandre> the "server thing" is important, but if all the efforts are guided towards that, we are missing a point (and then, why not just use any other flavor of ubuntu)
<ogra> rockstar, right
<ogra> but LaserJock ++
<rockstar> ogra, okay.  I see.
<LaserJock> ok, so usability is big
<LaserJock> integration is big
<LaserJock> getting the bits to all work together so that you can just install and go
<ogra> benoitstandre, that was the reason we splitted out ltsp into ubuntu
<ogra> so edubuntu can really focus on educational things
<ogra> instead of server developemnt etc
<benoitstandre> orga: that's great
<nubae> has the name been discussed at yet?
<LaserJock> so something like "usability and integration of learning, teaching, and administration tools"?
<benoitstandre> but now, a lot of people just perceive Edubuntu is somehow LTSP with educational tools
<nubae> benoitstandre: right, which it isnt
<LaserJock> one other possible goal item is actual educational content, what do people feel about that?
<benoitstandre> +1 LaserJock
<ogra> which it actually was for quite some time
<ogra> but shouldnt be
<LaserJock> like, as somebody said before, templates and such
<rockstar> LaserJock, that's where I'd like to be focusing my time.
<nubae> I think a moodle should be included for edubuntu
<nubae> some place to collect and store the apps
<nubae> store howtos
<nubae> and most importantly courses
<benoitstandre> I think this is a critical point, because people are willing to use the software (any one, OOo, Gcompris, whatever) , they open it, and they don't know what to do, since they don't have templates, or examples, or howtos
<rockstar> LaserJock, content similar to XO Sugar's Activities seems like an obvious direction.
<stgraber> yeah, we should continue to support LTSP because some people are still used to having LTSP support from the edubuntu team, but it's now an Ubuntu thing and so should be most other server-related stuff (but still keeping education in mind when developping as it's a major usecase)
<benoitstandre> that could be useful for just teacher and his students, but also in larger educational environments
<nubae> right now the howtos and help are purely for LTSP
<highvoltage> benoitstandre: that's more of a general Ubuntu problem though, isn't it?
<nubae> btu thats because the community really helped big time to get where it is now
<LaserJock> ok, so I'd like to kind of move along a bit
<LaserJock> I think we've gotten some really awesome feedback here
<highvoltage> stgraber: LTSP questions are always welcome in the edubuntusphere
<benoitstandre> highvoltage: could be, but for example, I know tons of teachers looking... just to do a calendar with whatever software that could help them to do so. I don't think this is a general Ubuntu problem, but it intersects with Ubuntu for sure.
<LaserJock> what perhaps we can do is I'll create a sort of draft/template for the Strategy Doc and then we can move discussion to the mailing list and future meetings
<LaserJock> sound OK?
<benoitstandre> agreed
<rockstar> +1
<highvoltage> benoitstandre: I tend to think that that's a problem that can be best dealt with with the help of educators themselves
<stgraber> LaserJock: +1
<nubae> LaserJock: sure
<highvoltage> LaserJock: agreed
<rockstar> A mailing list would be better for this discussion.
<morgs> +1
<LaserJock> [ACTION] LaserJock to start strategy document draft and discussion on mailing list
<MootBot> ACTION received:  LaserJock to start strategy document draft and discussion on mailing list
<LaserJock> ok moving on
<LaserJock> [TOPIC]Naming/Branding (where and when do we use "Edubuntu" or "Ubuntu Education Edition"?)
<MootBot> New Topic: Naming/Branding (where and when do we use "Edubuntu" or "Ubuntu Education Edition"?)
<nubae> ah :-)
<LaserJock> ok, this is a difficult one and unfortunately it looks like RichEd didn't make it
<ogra> the latter should really be discussed with RichEd
<ogra> stick with edubuntu for commmunity activities i would say
<stgraber> yeah, part of the problem is Canonical's marketing decisions, so we should really have Richard around for that point
<nubae> ogra: one of the problems we have is the website is split down the middle with definitions for edubuntu or ubuntu in education
<LaserJock> in our attempt to try to revamp/update the edubuntu.org site etc. we've come up against some confusion of terms
<ogra> the brand is there and known
<benoitstandre> ogra: +1
<nubae> which brand, edubuntu or ubunut?
<benoitstandre> edubuntu
<ogra> keep the brand leave the opportunity to rich to pull stuff into the "ubuntu in education" realm
<LaserJock> so I'd like to talk about our "branding" and "naming" and where we, as a community, would like to head
<ogra> edubuntu should be a part of ubuntu in education
<nubae> ok, then why do we have edubuntu: ubuntu in education - LTSP classroom server
<ogra> and i dont see a community forming arund the latter
<LaserJock> Richard has done some good work with http://www.ubuntu.com/education
<ogra> right
<LaserJock> but I'm still a bit confused as to where Edubuntu falls into all this
<nubae> yeah that page ecompasses a much bigger picture
<ogra> leave that to him, keep edubuntu distinct but a part of it
<nubae> LaserJock: aye
<LaserJock> currently the /education stuff mostly talks about Edubuntu
<LaserJock> i.e. gcompris, KDE Edu, etc. what we ship
<nubae> btw, the Ubuntu page has edubuntu and ubuntu in education defined
 * ogra doesnt see edubuntu mentioned anywhere
<nubae> its totally unclear (the ubuntu.com page)
<LaserJock> ogra: it's not at all, that's sort of my point
<ogra> it isnt
<nubae> not on that page no
<nubae> on another, as a totally seperate product
<ogra> it sas that this kind of software is available if you want to use ubuntu in edu
<LaserJock> the page talks about Edubuntu stuff without ever actually talking about "Edubuntu"
<nubae> let me get the link, there is even a download link
<nubae> which takes u to ubuntu
<LaserJock> so I'm a tad confused
 * Lns waves to all
<LaserJock> so here's sort of how I see it, ogra please correct me if I'm wrong
<nubae> http://www.ubuntu.com/products/WhatIsUbuntu/edubuntu
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://www.ubuntu.com/products/WhatIsUbuntu/edubuntu
<ogra> nubae, that should vanish
<LaserJock> Edubuntu is the community and product that produces the Educational Addon CD and generally takes care of educational stuff in Ubuntu
<ogra> its totally outdated
<nubae> right
<ogra> LaserJock, right ...
<LaserJock> Ubuntu Education is a larger, mostly marketing, project that looks at all uses of Ubuntu in educational settings
<ogra> ubuntu in edcation can be a server farm of mail and webservers in an UIN
<ogra> *UNI
<ogra> it can as well be a set of ubuntu desktops maintained centrally on an ldap and fileserver
<highvoltage> and how would that really be different from ubuntu server then?
<ogra> or it can be a primary school using ltsp and the edubuntu addoncd
<nubae> right, its a marketing concept
<LaserJock> ok, so I get Ubuntu Education and I get Edubuntu
<LaserJock> but what about "Ubuntu Educational Edition"?
<ogra> highvoltage, thats the point, ubuntu in education can be any kind of combo of the existing ubuntu products
<nubae> me too, I just dont get how they are defined to people,
<highvoltage> LaserJock: that should certainly be "edubuntu"
<LaserJock> for Intrepid the CD is "Ubuntu Educational Edition 8.10 Educational Addon CD"
<benoitstandre> I don't think a mail server, even in education, in considered like "Ubuntu in Education"
<LaserJock> which is a real mouthful
<highvoltage> ogra: I guess I just have some difficulty getting to terms with the marketing of it
<ogra> LaserJock, yeah, thats chaotic
<nubae> benoitstandre: talking about the larger concept, its a marketing term, not really technical
<LaserJock> so for Jaunty I'd really really love to get this all sorted and clear
<ogra> highvoltage, if you want to use ubuntu in education you have all opportunities of the ubuntu world, not only edubuntu
<nubae> LaserJock: +1
<Lns> Are we actually defining these terms now or just trying to understand them?
<LaserJock> so that we don't confuse users, or developers
<ogra> you can use kubuntu desktop PCs and a ubuntu server farm
<ogra> and install gcompris on them
<LaserJock> Lns: mostly trying to understand so we can define
<nubae> for support time length its defintely good its ubuntu now
<Lns> LaserJock: ok
<ogra> thats ubuntu in education
<nubae> but really, why cant we just call it ubuntu with the edubuntu add on cd, made by the edubuntu community
<ogra> it shoudnt be bound to the edubuntu product
<ogra> nubae, right, thats what i say
<ogra> edubuntu is only a set
<LaserJock> ok, so I would suggest the following:
<benoitstandre> could we compare this to UbuntuStudio ?
<ogra> ubuntu in education is the full universe of possibilities
<LaserJock> 1) the strategy doc should define what Edubuntu *is*
<nubae> the ubuntu in education is really the part thats confusing, as seen now by people trying to define it
 * ogra cant talk for riched though
<LaserJock> 2) we get rid of Ubuntu Educational Edition as it's the worse of all worlds
<highvoltage> I'm really with nubae on this one
<Lns> So as I see it, there's a bunch of these initiatives and they need to be seen with some sort of commonality, in that Educational use is the goal. I guess ogra, you say that *is* "Ubuntu in Education"
<Lns> All of these things together
<LaserJock> 3) Work to make sure that there isn't confusion between Ubuntu in Education and Edubuntu
<kaingeo> What about this: LSTP Server = Ubuntu Classroom Server, Edubuntu AddOn = Ubuntu Education Collection
<ogra> Lns, ubuntu in education is more than edubuntu, edubuntu is a *part* of ubuntu in education
<nubae> Lns: right, but we dont need that defined here, its a pure marketing term
<highvoltage> in terms of marketing, it really doesn't help having confusing names and descriptions
<Lns> ogra: right
<stgraber> kaingeo: LTSP isn't part of Edubuntu, it's part of Ubuntu alternate, for a while now.
<ogra> highvoltage, dont tell me :)
 * Lns agrees with highvoltage 
<ogra> highvoltage, but its a topic only rich can actually talk about
<nubae> highvoltage: its ok if its not used in the discussion of edubuntu
<nubae> which is I suppose why edubuntu isnt mentioned
<rockstar> LaserJock, I'm the new guy 'round here, but I'd agree with your process.  That makes it clear what we're even talking about.
<kaingeo> stgraber: So LTSP has no marketing name what so ever!
<nubae> kaingeo: actually it does
<stgraber> kaingeo: IIRC we have a thin client for Ubuntu page on www.ubuntu.com, ogra knows better
<nubae> ltsp is ltsp across 6 distros
<ogra> kaingeo, http://www.ubuntu.com/products/whatisubuntu/serveredition/technologies/ltsp
 * Lns opts for "ltspbuntu" ;)
<highvoltage> kaingeo: of course it does! Ubuntu Diskless Edition :)
<nubae> highvoltage: lol
<LaserJock> well, I consider LTSP to be distinct but integral part of Edubuntu
<LaserJock> Edubuntu wouldn't be what it is without LTSP
<nubae> as did I
<LaserJock> but LTSP is not limited to Edubuntu
<nubae> I say did, because the ltsp community migrated to ltsp-disucss
<nubae> discuss
<nubae> its now dead in the mailing list
<Lns> LTSP never *started* with Edubuntu, Edubuntu just harnessed it as a primary focus early on IIRC
<nubae> well the lead developer was also the head of edubuntu
<LaserJock> well, it's certainly important to separate out "upstream" from what we ship
<stgraber> right, Edubuntu is educational softwares on top of Ubuntu. LTSP can be used to make any Ubuntu system a thin client server. So the current way is to install Ubuntu with LTSP, then Edubuntu on top of Ubuntu and you get it on your thin clients.
<ogra> Lns, well, ltsp5 did
<stgraber> so yes the major market for LTSP is education but it's no longer part of Edubuntu, it's just the major usecase for it
<nubae> lead developer = ogra
<nubae> :-)
<ogra> edubuntu was the testbed for ltsp5 development for some years
<highvoltage> I think people are too obsessed with what fits into what. It's not what it should be about. There are different subsets that ultimately form part of one bigger universe. We shouldn't be thinking too much in terms of branding that will limit us from expanding one subset too mch
<rockstar> But Edubuntu can exist with or without ltsp
<ogra> right
<nubae> I think the seperation is good, but we lost the community along with it
<LaserJock> right, we need to look at that
<Lns> highvoltage: good point. There's always a different approach to looking at these things
<ogra> and i'm massively unhappy about the edu tag ltsp has ... it can save you so much if just used in an office
<LaserJock> hopefully we just transfered LTPS people to the LTSP community
<nubae> how do we get them back, involved in both ltsp and education part
<ogra> LaserJock, i think we lost a bunck to k12
<ogra> *bunch
<nubae> we did
<ogra> since we dropped the combined single CD thing
<benoitstandre> I think any teacher should consider installing Edubuntu on his Desktop. LTSP should'nt be a limiter to that, and Edubuntu should'nt just interest "server-tech" people
<nubae> thats why the sugar integration is so important
<Lns> nubae: I don't think that's really the point is it? It should be their choice of which projects to be a part of
<LaserJock> right, but it's not inherently because of Edubuntu no longer being upstream LTSP
<LaserJock> it's because of decisions we made
<LaserJock> and execution
<nubae> Lns: yeah, but they should know there IS a edubuntu community
<ogra> right
<LaserJock> we made Edubuntu hard to use by splitting CDs
<LaserJock> we lost our developer community, for various reasons
<nubae> LaserJock: yep
<ogra> yup
<LaserJock> and so Edubuntu wasn't as powerful an educational OS as it was
<LaserJock> but there's no inherent reason we can't regain that
<nubae> we killed it why it was growing :-)
<Lns> nubae: agreed - but I think the relation between LTSP and Edubuntu should be distinguished as two separate entities that *might* work well together, depending on who you are
<LaserJock> and that's why I'm here and I hope that's why you all are here too :-)
<nubae> Lns: agreed
<ogra> s/might/will/
<nubae> LaserJock: hear hear
 * ogra is here as consultant from the past ... 
<ogra> since i dont have much time left to even look at edubuntu
<Lns> ogra: you'll always be tied to LTSP and Edubuntu, no matter how hard you try to leave ;)
<ogra> if you guys dont keep it alive, it will die
<LaserJock> so we need 1) a clear strategy to move forward 2) realistic, bitesize plans 3) execution
<ogra> Lns, the day only has 24h in germany
<highvoltage> LaserJock: I think you just about summed it up there
<benoitstandre> laserjock: +1
 * Lns agrees as well
<highvoltage> Vote LaserJock!
<nubae> righ, ogra right now LaserJock doesnt have upload rights... shouldnt he have them? (hope I have that right)
<stgraber> LaserJock: +1
<nubae> +12
<LaserJock> nubae: I have every right I need ;-)
<nubae> oops, +1 even :-)
<stgraber> nubae: what do you mean by upload rights ? to where ?
<nubae> ah k
<ogra> Lns, if my printer wouldnt have gone on strike and costed me the whole day to fix i would right now be on the autobahn, heading towards a mobile conf (which i'll do at 5am tomorrow now)
<ogra> stgraber, main
<rockstar> It seems that #1 in that list is the roughest part.
<highvoltage> I wish we had autobahn :(
<Lns> ogra: i suggest going to linuxprinting.org to help fix your printer issue ;)
<stgraber> ogra: isn't LaserJock a coredev ?
<ogra> stgraber, btw, you need to apply for motu so we get you past that TB thing
<highvoltage> ogra: I thought core-devs can upload to main?
<LaserJock> it's currently only me with all upload rights
<ogra> right
<LaserJock> and stgraber with rights to ltsp, etc.
<stgraber> ogra: yeah, I'll send a request for MOTU membership and ask you to +1 it :)
<ogra> not yet
<ogra> stgraber needs to apply for motu first
<LaserJock> ogra: I'm taking it as a given ;-)
<nubae> ah ok, seems good, now we have people we can nag
<stgraber> LaserJock: not yet ... need to be MOTU first, then the TB might approve the limited upload rights
<ogra> then we can get restricted main upload rights for ltsp and frineds for him
<LaserJock> but we need *more*
<ogra> right
<LaserJock> I'm perfectly happy to sponsor people
<nubae> for what specifically
<LaserJock> but I'm not going to run Edubuntu by myself, bottom line
<nubae> this still confuses me
<ogra> hunting bugs
<ogra> fixing packages
<LaserJock> I need people looking bugs
<nubae> ok, of the addoncd
<LaserJock> if we have fixes, merges, syncs, etc.
<ogra> getting in new stuff
<LaserJock> if people create the packages I can sponsor them
<highvoltage> LaserJock: you can call on me if I can do anything, but I'm practically on the point of giving up on my motu journey
<nubae> well the inclusion of sugar should bring people on board
<LaserJock> sky's the limit there
<LaserJock> if people get stuff ready I can push things in
<Lns> nubae: is there plan on putting sugar into edubuntu addon ?
<ogra> LaserJock, it should be discussed if edubuntu goes universe though
<rockstar> I would REALLY like to be involved here, and I can set aside time to work on Edubuntu.
<ogra> but thats another point RichEd needs to participate in
<nubae> is it multiverse now?
<Lns> rockstar: we welcome you and encourage you to find out what you'd like to help with most
<ogra> nubae, its main now
<nubae> ah ok
<ogra> nubae, which means you need MIRs for packages etc
<LaserJock> ok, so here's a general point
<nubae> gotcha
<ogra> so sugar will be painful to get on the CD for example
<LaserJock> *anybody* can contribute to Edubuntu
<nubae> yeah scratch
<nubae> wrong licensing
<ogra> no, i'D like to see it ... and more
<LaserJock> but if you don't have upload rights (everybody but me and ogra) you need to go through us
<nubae> scratch the software
<nubae> :-)
<ogra> ah
<nubae> not take out
<highvoltage> LaserJock: do you still need to be a motu if you want sponsorship for main?
<LaserJock> wait wait
<LaserJock> sponsorship is when you don't have rights to upload
<LaserJock> so a developer has to upload for you
 * Lns welcomes alkisg 
<LaserJock> *anybody* can contribute packages
 * alkisg says hi to Lns
<LaserJock> they will just need the package sponsored, most likely by me
 * Lns nominates nubae to work on moodle in edubuntu ;)
<LaserJock> so is everybody clear on that part?
<Lns> yes
 * Lns is, anyway
<nubae> heh
<LaserJock> basically anybody can do pretty much anything in Edubuntu, it just needs to be sponsored by a developer
<nubae> well I've started the sugarlabs one
<nubae> so shouldnt be too hard
<nubae> there is lots of free moodle stuff out there
<nubae> so LaserJock I vote to get moodle installed and linked to edubuntu
<LaserJock> moodle is in Edubuntu
<nubae> a moodle instance
<nubae> not the software to be installable
<ogra> apt-cache show edubuntu-server
<ogra> it is (currently the only) part of edubuntu-server
<LaserJock> ok, so I'd like to put out one last item out I think
<LaserJock> [TOPIC]Drop Alternate CD LTSP installation, install Ubuntu LTSP Server in an Ubuntu desktop installation with a simple gui
<MootBot> New Topic: Drop Alternate CD LTSP installation, install Ubuntu LTSP Server in an Ubuntu desktop installation with a simple gui
<nubae> I mean a link like moodle.edubuntu.org
<nubae> with a moodle instance
<nubae> not the software on a cd
<stgraber> LaserJock: -1
<highvoltage> yeah -1 on that topic
<nubae> -1
<stgraber> LaserJock: we want it to be installable without requiring internet access, that's only possible with the alternate CD
<LaserJock> stgraber: we could put it on the Edubuntu CD
<stgraber> LaserJock: no
<highvoltage> stgraber: would it be too hacky to use something like dpkg-repack on the livecd?
<Lns> Why can't LTSP be an option in all Ubuntu installation CDs ?
<stgraber> LaserJock: you'd need all ubuntu-desktop and all dependencies on that CD
<highvoltage> Lns: technical reasons
<Lns> ah
<LaserJock> stgraber: ok, so that's a technical requirement
<stgraber> highvoltage: yes, not a way I want to go. We'd need to regenerate all packages, add them all to a fake repository and use debootstrap+apt-get on that
<stgraber> LaserJock: yes
<stgraber> LaserJock: we discussed that over a whole afternoon at UDS-Boston
<LaserJock> stgraber: that's what I thought, but somebody put the agenda item up so I thought we should discuss it
<stgraber> LaserJock: and the current way is the only non-hacky way to put it on the CD
<stgraber> regenerating the packages from an installed system is not something I want to do
<highvoltage> yeah, it's certainly not the ideal. just the only way I could think of doing it so far.
<LaserJock> I was assuming you'd have to do it via internet
<ogra> yes, keep the classroom server setup for ltsp+edu
<ogra> no
<stgraber> LaserJock: some of our users only have 56K internet access, downloading all ubuntu desktop is not an option
<ogra> just the two CDs
<highvoltage> or you could have a pre-shipped chroot on the CD, but that would take up a lot of dead space.
<LaserJock> highvoltage: for sure
<LaserJock> ok, one last CD item and we can close I think
<stgraber> highvoltage: remember we don't have any tool to update a chroot yet, so not good as you'd need a new CD for each security update
<LaserJock> [TOPIC]Should Edubuntu produce a demo LiveCD?
<MootBot> New Topic: Should Edubuntu produce a demo LiveCD?
<nubae> what for?
<benoitstandre> livedemo of what ?
<LaserJock> I've always liked the idea of having a demo LiveCD that people could use to see what Edubuntu was all about
<benoitstandre> Ã 
<stgraber> we saw in the past that's it's really difficult to do a LiveCD, LiveDVD perhaps though
<LaserJock> the educational apps, etc.
<stgraber> we just don't have enough space on a CD
<nubae> cant we use the web/moodle for that?
<highvoltage> I suppose it would be for kdeedu and gcompris mostly at this stage
<benoitstandre> nubae: I think that would be mixing things up. People want to try it "live" for the most.
<LaserJock> clearly we can't stick everything on a LiveCD and I don't think we'd want LTSP
<nubae> links to docos and howtos are more important
<highvoltage> I think in the future when everyone has pink ponies and cars can fly, and edubuntu has it's own installable disc again, it should be on a DVD (or USB flash disk installer by default) and not CD
<benoitstandre> I think a live CD of Edubuntu Desktop should be a good thing
<nubae> trying it live is installing with apt-get
<nubae> not so hard
<ogra> LaserJock, the prob is that it would be an ubuntu desktop liveCD with edu apps added
<LaserJock> but somehow I feel like we should be able to give people a chance to get a feel for what Edubuntu is without having to get 2 CDs
<ogra> thats not gonna fly space wise
<ogra> even the desktop CD starts to be crippled already
<nubae> instructions on how to download and test, + documentation would be better
<LaserJock> ogra: would you think the release team would go for an Edubuntu DVD?
 * Lns doesn't like liveCD/DVD anyway..too sluggish for most systems and not a good way to demo
<benoitstandre> nubae: trying it live with a teacher that knows nothing about linux is not installing with apt-get :-)
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 10 Nov 18:00: LoCo Council | 11 Nov 16:00: Server Team | 18 Nov 11:00: Community Council | 18 Nov 16:00: Server Team | 21 Nov 20:00: Tunisian LoCo Team IRC | 25 Nov 16:00: Server Team
<nubae> synaptic
<ogra> LaserJock, ask cjwatson or slangasek
<highvoltage> I also don't think Ubuntu is going to be able to stick to a CD for too long. If the Ubuntu CD is already getting crippled, how is it going to look like 2-4 releases from now?
<ogra> no idea, really
<morgs> Just a quick point: The Sugar community is definitely interested in Sugar LiveCDs and LiveUSB images - there are several options already but no real official ones.
<LaserJock> ogra: ok
<Lns> I think LiveUSB would be the future
<slangasek> I'm not sure we have the mirror capacity to host such an image
<slangasek> but we could look into it
<LaserJock> slangasek: ah, ok
<ogra> slangasek, i doubt it would have to be on official mirrors
<LaserJock> slangasek: it would be nice to know if it's even feasible
<slangasek> if it doesn't have to be on official mirrors, then you don't need to talk to us about it either :)
<slangasek> cdimage.ubuntu.com is an "official mirror"
<ogra> LaserJock, you woul dhave to reinvent the edubuntu live session and seed
<nubae> morgs: whats the result with subuntu?
<ogra> not sure how much thats desired
<LaserJock> ogra: frankly, not a lot by me, having to deal with all the seeds already :-)
 * stgraber thinks about adding two more DVD testcases to the tracker ..... bad ... testing Ubuntu is already hard
<ogra> right
<morgs> nubae: that's one person's livecd at this point, so unofficial
<LaserJock> but I just wanted to throw the idea out there in any case
<highvoltage> stgraber: that's a very good point
<LaserJock> for me personally as I look at Edubuntu
<nubae> will sugar be included in ltsp
<LaserJock> I'd like to sort of shrink-and-focus
<ogra> you could use ubuntu-umpc as a base, the mobile team has easy scripts to add/remove packages from the base image
<nubae> that ws one of my questions which is not related to this
<ogra> that could give you an usb live image
<LaserJock> I'd like us to pick some reasonable targets and do them well
<stgraber> LaserJock: yeah, I thought we made it clear that we can't put the effort to manage a whole distro, so let's not try to create one, even if it's only for a LiveCD :)
<LaserJock> then expand
<LaserJock> rather than trying to do everything all at once and doing a poor job of it
<ogra> ++
<ogra> focus on the addon CD and its app set
<Lns> For exposure of Edubuntu/other Ubuntu/LTSP to people who want to try it, do we really have to focus on liveCD/DVD/etc as the only way to promote it though? Look at YouTube, for instance. Think of how many people could get exposed to a demo session by someone who already knows what they're doing if we just got a screenrecorder and put together a really nice demo video of Edubuntu.
<LaserJock> ah good point
<nubae> Lns: agreed
<LaserJock> we really could use a good YouTube campaign
<kaingeo_> many schools have internet connections, i think is fare that can install an LTSP server with a simple package
<LaserJock> :-)
<highvoltage> *nod*
 * Lns opts to be part of the YT campaign
<nubae> kaingeo_: they can
<LaserJock> coming off of the US elections
<morgs> Yes We Can!
<Lns> I'm already looking to make videos promoting LTSP and related
<ogra> Lns, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdvJIGQCVi0
<LaserJock> we need a good grass-roots and internet based campaign
<highvoltage> LaserJock: I strategically didn't say anything about that :)
<ogra> thats a ten part series about edubuntu
<LaserJock> highvoltage: I know, I know
<ogra> pretty awesome
<Lns> LaserJock: yep..we need to hit it from all corners
<benoitstandre> basic question is: who do we want to convince with a liveCD-USB-Whatever ?
<Lns> ogra: wow..see, look at what we have already!
<ogra> its there snce ages, but nobody picked up and promoted it
<Lns> benoitstandre: I think that most people that we're currently trying to target might not understand the concept of a Live CD/DVD anyway
<LaserJock> the people I personally want to target are teachers
<LaserJock> and as Lns points out, Live disks are maybe not the most effective way to reach them
<benoitstandre> not sure about that
<stgraber> web campaign sounds a good idea
<nubae> teachers need a moodle location to grab lesson plans/courses from
<ogra> LaserJock, tae ubuntu-umpc, remove the umpc modifications, install edubuntu-desktop and you have a demo usb key
<LaserJock> so +1 for EduTube ;-)
<benoitstandre> people need to "touch" it
<benoitstandre> if they don't have the chance to test it without installing it
<LaserJock> ogra: ok, good idea
<Lns> benoitstandre: Not saying a LiveCD/DVD *shouldn't* be used, but it's only one way of demoing
<ogra> LaserJock, just put up a reciepe how to do it if people want to demo it ;)
<ogra> LaserJock, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Mobile/HowTo/TurnUMPCDesktopIntoNetbook
<kaingeo_> nubae: i think that is the future. Ubuntu became big because is user friently
<ogra> something like that
<LaserJock> [IDEA] take ubuntu-umpc, remove the umpc modifications, install edubuntu-desktop and you have a demo usb key
<MootBot> IDEA received:  take ubuntu-umpc, remove the umpc modifications, install edubuntu-desktop and you have a demo usb key
<LaserJock> [LINK]https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Mobile/HowTo/TurnUMPCDesktopIntoNetbook
<MootBot> LINK received: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Mobile/HowTo/TurnUMPCDesktopIntoNetbook
<LaserJock> ok, let's close up shop
<benoitstandre> maybe resources are too low for a live cd, but, I don't think it's just because it's not a right way to show to people
<stgraber> sounds better, it's just a howto, so nothing to maintain or to test
<LaserJock> I've got writing to do ;-)
<ogra> LaserJock, also https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Mobile/HowTo/ImageModification
<LaserJock> [LINK]https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Mobile/HowTo/ImageModification
<MootBot> LINK received: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Mobile/HowTo/ImageModification
<LaserJock> ok, anything else before we stop for today?
<LaserJock> I've had a lot of fun
<LaserJock> and I hope you all did too
<nubae> install moodle
<Lns> too short! i'm still ready to talk ;)
<nubae> :-)
<highvoltage> LaserJock: Hope we can believe in
<LaserJock> 1 thing
<LaserJock> let's really try to use the edubuntu-devel list
<benoitstandre> laserjock
<highvoltage> Lns: #edubuntu will be listening!
<LaserJock> we can keep a lot of these creative juices flowing *and* get more people involved than just the IRC discussions
<highvoltage> LaserJock: agreed on that too. a lot of discussion fades away on IRC
<benoitstandre> laserjock: just subscribed to it :-)
<Lns> LaserJock: quick question - can Edubuntu Desktop run alongside a "normal" ubuntu installation?
<Lns> say, with edubuntu-menus etc?
<LaserJock> benoitstandre: thanks for that, really
<nubae> as a seperate session?
<LaserJock> Lns: depends on what you mean by "alongside"
<ogra> no
<Lns> LaserJock: example:
<LaserJock> I mean, Edubuntu is on top of ubuntu-desktop
<ogra> its a thing that goes on top of ubuntu-desktop
<LaserJock> so you can't exactly separate them
<Lns> K through 12 school - have K through 3 on edubuntu desktops and everyone else on ubuntu dekstops
<Lns> ok
<Lns> maybe that could be something we could look into
<LaserJock> Lns: no, what i would prefer is to have Edubuntu gain that capability
<nubae> u cant create sessions like that?
<highvoltage> that sounds more like profile-based menus/sessions. LaserJock did do some work on that before.
<LaserJock> I started some of that with the group-driven menuing
<Lns> highvoltage: yes
<LaserJock> but we could really really enhance that a lot more
<LaserJock> we could also do sabayon profiles
<Lns> In my experience, the younger kids LOVE edubuntu themes, but anyone over say 10 thinks it's "too childish"
<nubae> LaserJock: thats very interesting, lots of people have asked me about that too
<Lns> so it'd be great to have the flexibility to choose via group membership, etc
<ogra> nubae, look at edubuntu-menus
<LaserJock> perhaps whole user profiles, etc.
<LaserJock> *but* we need people to do the work, bottom line
<Lns> LaserJock: yeah, user profiles would be great
<nubae> not just that, different users of different classes need different menus
<ogra> thats what its for
<nubae> cool
<LaserJock> so we need not only great ideas, but great work!
<nubae> Ill look
<Lns> LaserJock: agreed
<highvoltage> LaserJock: I had a customer ask me for sessions/menus based on ldap groups. I could give you my hacky scripts if it would help
<ogra> it doesnt have any gui yet
<LaserJock> so talk to educators around you
<LaserJock> talk to developers
<Lns> We need real gconf integration i think to make it work well
<LaserJock> see what educators need and convince developers to give some time to the cause
<LaserJock> :-)
<LaserJock> if everybody gets a couple people involved we'd take off like a rocket
<Lns> I can only imagine the possibilities with true profile management under ubuntu..not just edubuntu
<LaserJock> with that
<LaserJock> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 13:45.
 * Lns applauds
<highvoltage> enjoy the autobahn ogra
<LaserJock> we should be scheduling another meeting sometime in the future here
<LaserJock> once we get up and running it should be a weekly or bi-weekly thing
<ogra> highvoltage, nothing i enjoy at 5am
<highvoltage> like in the old days?
<LaserJock> for now, lets hit the edubuntu-devel list and generate some discussions
<LaserJock> highvoltage: yep
<nubae> cool
<ogra> would probably be good t establish something like the council again as well
<Lns> Can someone post the full meeting to edubuntu-devel ? Maybe that'll get some threads going
<nubae> so Im still a little unclear... can we go ahead and simplify the download process and explanation of edubuntu on the site?
<LaserJock> ogra: agreed
<ogra> there are some pending people that would like to become edubuntu members
<ogra> but i wont hav etime to attend every meeting
<LaserJock> Lns: I'm gonna, email it, blog it, etc.
<Lns> LaserJock: cool
<LaserJock> nubae: yeah, lets talk about that in #edubuntu
<nubae> ok
<benoitstandre> thanks eveyrone, see you around
<nubae> yup.. ditto
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-11-06
<TiMiDo> hey anyone in here?
<afflux> TiMiDo: can I help you?
<TiMiDo> afflux, i have a question. i was wondering. how do i add my self. on the Members candidates?
<afflux> create a wiki account and edit the page of your membership board.
<TiMiDo> I have a wiki account,.
<TiMiDo> afflux, okey do i pick up a date?
<afflux> what do you mean?
<persia> TiMiDo, You put the date you added your name on the page.  You'll be expected to attend the next scheduled meeting.
<TiMiDo> oh okey thank you persia
<TiMiDo> persia, when is the next scheduled meeting?
<afflux> TiMiDo: which board?
<persia> Depends on to which RMB you are applying.  When it's decided, it usually appears on the relevant wiki page.
<TiMiDo> afflux, Americas
<afflux> TiMiDo: as you can see on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/Americas, it's not yet decided
<TiMiDo> persia, when are you guys going to decided? about the Americas meeting?
<persia> TiMiDo, I don't know.  I'm not a member of the Americas RMB.
<TiMiDo> oh okey ic,
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-11-08
<Buki> how can we get the command line syntax of a particular application?
<Buki> anybody out here, please help me!!!!!!
<persia> support in #ubuntu, and man pages rule.
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-11-09
<ziroday`> @schedule Singapore
<ubottu> Schedule for Asia/Singapore: 11 Nov 02:00: LoCo Council | 12 Nov 00:00: Server Team | 12 Nov 01:00: Kernel Team | 13 Nov 01:00: QA Team | 13 Nov 06:00: Platform Team | 13 Nov 20:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-11-02
<Janjiss> hello
<JVilsack> Is anyone here for the Ubuntu Marketing meeting proposed by Martin Owens on 22-October?  I'm not seeing anything on the fridge calendar, and its a bit too quiet in here for the meeting to be taking place.
<JVilsack> If not, I'll assume said meeting has been aborted.
<popey> JVilsack: shame :(
<JVilsack> Agreed.  :(  Thanks for trying those that did show up.  Sorry the moderator was a no show.
<popey> JVilsack: seems the marketing team is destined to fail
<cprofitt> popey, why is that?
<cprofitt> We need to have a strong marketing effort...
<JVilsack> Failure would intone that there was an attempted effort in the first place. :)  Its unfortunate.
<cprofitt> JVilsack, what can you and I do to stoke the fires then...?
<popey> cprofitt: why is the team destined to fail?
<popey> lack of action/meetings/leadership in no particular order
 * cprofitt ponders
<cprofitt> popey, I will have to look in to that...
<JVilsack> Long story short:  the community effort marketing-wise is failing.  Ubuntu's grassroots remains a large grassroots, yet individual effort.  There is no concerted message aggregation or material development from the communal side, because those who have been there for a while abhor hierarchy.
<popey> cprofitt: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-marketing/
<JVilsack> Check out the mailing-list.  There is a lot of information in it :)
<cprofitt> I really think we need to drive that team... I do a lot locally with presenting at non-Linux conventions and events... so I would like to assist with making that a concerted effort
<popey> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-marketing/2009-October/003711.html that thread specifically
<cprofitt> I will.
<JVilsack> Please feel free to drop me a line cprofitt.  I've tried three times to get this thing started and its met with heavy resistance each time.   But you can email me at vilsack@gmail.com any time.
<popey> JVilsack: resistence in what way?
<JVilsack> In the interim, I've got to go image some servers.  Thanks for trying!  Thanks Popey!
<popey> ok
<cprofitt> JVilsack, I will...
<cprofitt> popey, that was a good post
<popey> which?
<cprofitt> it aligns with one of my thoughts that I shared with Greg DeKoenigsberg
<cprofitt> the individual one you had me read
<cprofitt> to me focusing marketing on the positive advantages of FOSS in general will help raise awareness to Ubuntu and other distros
<cprofitt> if we can skim 1% off the people using Windows it would have a far greater impact than taking 1% of the current Linux users and moving them to our distro
<cprofitt> in that sense... I could care less about the distro they use... just that they become aware of a choice beyond Windows and OS X
<cprofitt> docs reply appears to be square on as well.
<cprofitt> other than his thought that activism should not be included.
<cprofitt> popey, is there a current leader of the marketing team?
<popey> no
<popey> there is of course a marketing department within canonical
<cprofitt> is there a historical reason behind there not being a marketing team leader?
<popey> anyone who steps up needs thick skin
<popey> marketing by committee doesnt work
<cprofitt> true... true...
<joaopinto> wouldn't Canonical marketing overlap with Ubuntu marketing ?
<cprofitt> I just was not sure if there was some reason for there being no leader... mutiny... Anarcho-Syndicated Commune... other
<cprofitt> joaopinto, I would think there would be an overlap...
<cprofitt> but there still needs to be some coordination for the community part of it...
<popey> joaopinto: yes, to some degree
<popey> canonical marketing of course also has to market canonical corporate services
<cprofitt> +1 popey
<joaopinto> Canonical's marketing team is not very popular from a community relations perspective, an Ubuntu Community Marketting team should have Canonical's Marketing blessing
<cprofitt> I would think that there is a difference to corporate shill marketing and grassroots user group type marketing
<cprofitt> I hope that did not come off in the wrong way
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-11-03
<doctormo> I'd like to appologise to everyone who came to the marketing meeting, I wasn't here to call it to order.
<NCommander> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 07:00. The chair is NCommander.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<NCommander> ogra, plars davidm GrueMaster JamieBennett dyfet StevenK lool, ping
<JamieBennett> here
<StevenK> Made it! \o/
 * ogra is here
<plars> hola
<ogra> no persia
<NCommander> StevenK, <MootBot> Meeting started at 07:00. The chair is NCommander. - not quite
<NCommander> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2009/20091027
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2009/20091027
<NCommander> er
<StevenK> Haha
<NCommander> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2009/20091103
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2009/20091103
<StevenK> It's the 4th here
<NCommander> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/LucidSpecifications
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/LucidSpecifications
<ogra> pfft
<NCommander> StevenK, time is relative
<ogra> NCommander, action items ?
<NCommander> [topic] Action Item Review
<MootBot> New Topic:  Action Item Review
<NCommander> [topic] ogra to file a bug for dhclient not working properly with the FEC driver in d-i
<MootBot> New Topic:  ogra to file a bug for dhclient not working properly with the FEC driver in d-i
 * ogra reopened bug 356975
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 356975 in linux "imx51 oops after watchdog call" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/356975
<NCommander> ogra, which presumably was refixed :-)
<NCommander> [topic] dyfet to test recent banshee release and report to the banshee bug
<MootBot> New Topic:  dyfet to test recent banshee release and report to the banshee bug
<ogra> NCommander, it was never fixed
<dyfet`> That was done :)
<NCommander> ogra, it says Fix released
<ogra> NCommander, no idea why bjf closed it
<dyfet`> (I mean the task)
<ogra> right
<NCommander> ogra, oh
<ogra> he just closed it when the release was done
<ogra> since nobody (including myself) could reproduce it back then
<NCommander> ogra, *sigh*, we probably should track that for lucid
<ogra> i tracked it for linux-fsl-imx51 generally for now
<dyfet`> ogra: plars reproduced my version of the bug, I could never reproduce yours :)
<NCommander> ogra, so no action item needed, right?
<ogra> dyfet`, different one
<plars> dyfet`: this is the banshee bug?
<ogra> NCommander, nope
<NCommander> [topic] lool and NCommander to discuss u-boot upgrades off-channel and report back
<MootBot> New Topic:  lool and NCommander to discuss u-boot upgrades off-channel and report back
<ogra> NCommander, i could add more debugging stuff, but given we'll default to alternate that will happen anyway during lucid
<NCommander> ogra, we're going to alternates for lucid?
<NCommander> Or just making sure they work.
<StevenK> That is/should be a spec
<ogra> see the specs
<ogra> i added the list from the internal wiki to the MobileTeam/LucidSpecifications wikipage btw
<NCommander> ogra, right, sorry. I'm not caffinated yet
<ogra> in the "high prio specs" area
<NCommander> I don't think we need UNR/UMR status review since we just released
<NCommander> [topic] Specification Review
<MootBot> New Topic:  Specification Review
<ogra> no, none of these
<ogra> so ...
<ogra> i sent that mail
<NCommander> I think the easiest way is to go right down the list
<ogra> did everyone make a pick of a favorite spec from the high prio list ?
<JamieBennett> ogra: yup
<dyfet> Yes
<NCommander> yeah
<ogra> cool :)
<ogra> so lets drop them in the channel one by one ...
<NCommander> [topic] # ARM: default to alternate image, make desktop image optional
<MootBot> New Topic:  # ARM: default to alternate image, make desktop image optional
<NCommander> I'd like to take this one if no one objections
<ogra> fine with me, add your name to it on the wikipage
<NCommander> ogra, actually, this should be broken up per-SoC
<NCommander> I have no imx51 hardware
<ogra> you will get some
<NCommander> Oh
<NCommander> problem solved
<ogra> we'll need to re-shuffle anyway ...
<StevenK> Hm. My pet spec isn't in the high prio list
<ogra> and we'll get B3.0 (hopefully)
<NCommander> ogra, I'll hold a lock open on the wiki and add the names as we go spec to spec
<NCommander> [topic] ARM: 2D launcher for UNR
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM: 2D launcher for UNR
<ogra> StevenK, well, you are supposed to take at least one from the high prio list
<ogra> i'm fine taking the 2D launcher if nobody else wants it
<JamieBennett> I already have a spec but I wouldn't mind looking at the 2D stuff
<JamieBennett> go ogra
<ogra> JamieBennett, feel feree
<StevenK> ogra: It's high prio, it isn't on the list. It needs to be
<JamieBennett> lol
<ogra> *free even :)
<NCommander> StevenK, which one do you want me to bump
<JamieBennett> ogra: OK, I'll take 2D and Device Tree's then
<StevenK> NCommander: My name for it is 'mobile-lucid-une'; Renaming UNR to UNE
<ogra> JamieBennett, cool ... though device tree will mostly live at the kernel team
<ogra> JamieBennett, on our side it will be more testing than development work i suspect
<JamieBennett> ogra: that's what I thought hence my backup spec ;)
<ogra> great
<ogra> add your name to them
<NCommander> ogra, I'll be adding all the names. Just easier if one person does it
<NCommander> StevenK, added, and put your name on it
<ogra> ok
<StevenK> NCommander: Okay
<StevenK> *Now* I have a high prio spec :-)
<ogra> heh
<NCommander> [topic] ARM: cut down UNR seed
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM: cut down UNR seed
<dyfet> Will I need to fight Paul in the Arena of death for that one? ;)    I see the one below as a related subset of this, too...
<NCommander> We're doing ARM UNR for lucid?
<StevenK> NCommander: I'll take that one
<ogra> NCommander, thats the plan ... thus the 2D launcher
<NCommander> [topic] ARM: lightweight webkit based browser
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM: lightweight webkit based browser
 * NCommander knows a few browsers like that already exist ...
<StevenK> I'm going to have to fiddle with seeds a lot due to the other 2 specs I'm writing, so
<plars> dyfet: nope, I just transposed them into lp for the purposes of getting them over, they are yours
<ogra> i would propose that one to take as a team spec
<NCommander> epiphany and midori come to mind
<ogra> right
<NCommander> Who wants it?
<ogra> each of us should use a different browser for a month
<StevenK> *On ARM*
<plars> NCommander dyfet has expressed interest
<ogra> i'll take the lead on it but would like to see team participation
<NCommander> I'll assign it to dyfet
<ogra> ok, give it to dyfet
<NCommander> [topic] ARM: Per SoC Power management improvements
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM: Per SoC Power management improvements
<ogra> thats nasty
<NCommander> This one is probably going to live mostly on the kernel side of things
<ogra> and rather kernel team stuff
<NCommander> someone needs to track this, on a per SoC basis
<ogra> but we're supposed to do the paperwork i think
<NCommander> Since quite a bit of the power stuff isn't going to carry over
<ogra> carry over ?
<ogra> we didnt even remotely look into it yet :)
<NCommander> ogra, er, its SoC specific, like low power modes
<NCommander> I think
<ogra> right
<NCommander> */two cents*
<ogra> but we didnt do anything specific for PM ever
<ogra> apart from upstream kernel stuff per SoC
<NCommander> ogra, we've yet to have ARM hardware that actually has a battery for anything aside the RTC
<NCommander> Actually
<ogra> indeed
<ogra> still powertop and friends work fine on babbage for example
<NCommander> ogra, we need a sleep/hibrenate ARM spec :-/
<ogra> ++
<ogra> please add it
<NCommander> ogra, I think this spec should be assigned to whoever heads an SoC
<NCommander> And spit up apporiately
<ogra> ok, since nobody steps up i'll take the PM one
<NCommander> [topic] ARM: Sleep/hibernation support and testing
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM: Sleep/hibernation support and testing
<StevenK> Haha, 'spit up'
<StevenK> *Split*
<ogra> i'm fine taking that too if nobody else wants ... the testing part should be split off to plars or GrueMaster
<NCommander> StevenK, er, split :-P
<NCommander> [topic] ARM: Make gcc default to ARMv7 and Thumb2
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM: Make gcc default to ARMv7 and Thumb2
<plars> ogra: it'll be covered in testing, certainly
<NCommander> This one kinda tricky
<StevenK> Wasn't that done already?
<NCommander> StevenK, we went to ARMv6+VFP
<ogra> who agreed on that one even ?
<NCommander> I worry if we go to ARMv7 and Thumb2, we'll have a ton of breakage in a LTS cycle
<ogra> yep, same here
<StevenK> Then spec it :-)
<ogra> but i surely was discussed in advance
<StevenK> Were you?
 * StevenK cackles
 * ogra wasnt :P
<NCommander> who wants this one?
<NCommander> (are we assigning specs for implementation, or just who's actually drafting one)
<NCommander> (just for clarification)
<ogra> ownership until UDS for now
<NCommander> This one is a priority spec
<ogra> we can discuss implementation later
<NCommander> if we're going to make the change, we want to do this BEFORE the toolchain uploads
<StevenK> Too late
<ogra> yeah
<NCommander> d'oh
<ogra> and we want to be able to discuss it
<ogra> so it wont be implemented before UDS anyway
<ogra> well, give it to me for now
<NCommander> [topic] UNR: Add support for alternate installer
<MootBot> New Topic:  UNR: Add support for alternate installer
<ogra> pfft
<NCommander> I won't mind taking this one if StevenK doesn't want it
 * NCommander knows StevenK likes UNR specs
<ogra> who wants that anyway :P
<StevenK> I do want it
<ogra> alternate ?
<ogra> why ?
<NCommander> StevenK, don't we have alternates indirectly via netboot though?
 * ogra thinks its a step backwards 
<StevenK> I'm not sure it buys it much, but I'm happy to entertain it long enough to talk about it
<ogra> NCommander, we have only-ubiquity for sure
<StevenK> s/it much/us much/
 * NCommander vaguely remembers this conversation at Karmic UDS
 * ogra finds it massively silly
<NCommander> ogra, UNR exists as a task in archive, and shows up in the netboot installer. I don' tknow if it works
<StevenK> Yes, we shouted you down there too
<NCommander> [topic] UNR: Include new DX team enhancements
<ogra> NCommander, yes, still, alternate takes twice the time to install for no gain at all
<MootBot> New Topic:  UNR: Include new DX team enhancements
 * ogra guesses thats a clear StevenK spec
<NCommander> ogra, well, more advanced partitioning, but in general, I agree.
<StevenK> ogra: Full crypted disks for UNR?
<NCommander> I think we want alternates
<NCommander> but they're not 100% needed IMHO
 * ogra doesnt
<ogra> and finds it a silly decision ... but we'll discuss it
<NCommander> [topic] UNR: cut down non ARM UNR seed
<MootBot> New Topic:  UNR: cut down non ARM UNR seed
<NCommander> I think that's a StevenK spec
<StevenK> Yeah
<ogra> sounds like
<StevenK> I'll drive it
<StevenK> Probably implement it too
<NCommander> Ok, down to the brainstorm specs
<dyfet> It should be coordinated with the arm one to some level :)
<ogra> yes
<NCommander> [topic] replace the maximus blacklist(s) with proper info on the affected windows
<MootBot> New Topic:  replace the maximus blacklist(s) with proper info on the affected windows
<StevenK> I like seed specs, I work on them for 2 days and then mark them all Implemented
 * NCommander has no idea what this one is about.
<ogra> but the arm desktop on UNR might end up totally different
<StevenK> NCommander: The maximus blacklist is a list of windows that shouldn't be maximised
<NCommander> No one for this spec?
<NCommander> Oh
<NCommander> StevenK, so this one yours?
<NCommander> (do we want it for lucid?)
<StevenK> I actually vote persia, in seriousness
<NCommander> StevenK, priority?
<ogra> sounds good
<StevenK> low/medium
 * NCommander thinks we should market priority/desirability for brainstorm specs
<StevenK> Nice to have
<ogra> how much upstream work is involved ?
<ogra> i guess neil needs to hack a bit on it, no ?
<NCommander> [topic] reimplement desktop-switcher
<MootBot> New Topic:  reimplement desktop-switcher
<StevenK> That's a njpatel question
<ogra> yup
<StevenK> NCommander: I have a high-prio spec about that: mobile-lucid-netbook-sessions
<plars> he's well aware of it, but we should point out the blueprint to him
<ogra> he'll be at UDS
<NCommander> StevenK, How do I write it?
<NCommander> UNR: Netboot Sessions or?
<ogra> we can stack them on his lap
<ogra> Netbook Session Switching
<ogra> NCommander, ^^^
<StevenK> NCommander: UNE: Using sessions to switch session types
<ogra> (and not netboot :P )
<StevenK> NCommander just has netboot on the brain
<ogra> yeah
<NCommander> StevenK, added and marked to you
 * StevenK plugs NCommander into a tftp server, and forces him to netboot Netware 3.5
<StevenK> Now let's see you do useful work!
<ogra> heh
<StevenK> No TCP/IP for you
 * NCommander writes a NLM to load a linux kernel into kernel space and jumps into it
 * plars has done much netware administration :)
<StevenK> plars: Poor guy
 * NCommander knows what netware is.
<NCommander> That's enough for me
<StevenK> plars: I've done a little, shall we drink beer and cry at UDS?
<plars> heh
<StevenK> I've done worse
<StevenK> Solaris administration
<StevenK> No, I lie. IRIX!
 * ogra loves IRIX
<StevenK> Heathen!
<NCommander> IRIX is fun
<NCommander> csh FTW
<NCommander> But seriously folks
<StevenK> IRIX makes me cry
<ogra> i still have an indigo2 sitting behind me
<NCommander> Who's getting this spec, or am I leaving it unassigned and unloved
<StevenK> Which spec? :-)
 * StevenK has lost track
<NCommander> StevenK, reimplement desktop-switcher
<ogra> NCommander, StevenK said he already has one for it
<NCommander> oh
<NCommander> Missed that
<StevenK> NCommander: Oh, that should be ignored in favour of mobile-lucid-netbook-sessions
<NCommander> Oh
 * NCommander kicks the spec off the list
<NCommander> [topic] dpkg stripping doc/man etc.
<MootBot> New Topic:  dpkg stripping doc/man etc.
 * NCommander shivers
<dyfet> I found this one interesting
<ogra> i think thats from lools list
<NCommander> This is what Emdebian Crush does
<StevenK> Twitch
<NCommander> I'll assign this to lool, and shove it under low
<StevenK> I'm not touching that one with a ... a very long thing
<NCommander> [topic] UEFI bootloader based on Apple's Cortex A8/A9 work
<MootBot> New Topic:  UEFI bootloader based on Apple's Cortex A8/A9 work
<NCommander> this is a good thing
<ogra> if you say so
<JamieBennett> sounds interesting
<NCommander> ogra, this is a unifed boot solution for ARM
<ogra> NCommander, only if you convince the vendors :P
<NCommander> ogra, basically one firmware, one bootloader, one kernel
<NCommander> I'll take this one, I'll mark it medium for now
 * ogra thinks softbootloader has more chances to make lucid
<NCommander> [topic] cross-compilers
<MootBot> New Topic:  cross-compilers
<NCommander> Are we seriously considering cross-compilers in archive?
<ogra> not me
<dyfet> What is the intent of this one?
<ogra> ask lool
<ogra> its from his list iirc
<dyfet> NCommander: I was wondering the same
 * NCommander puts it as Wishlist, and puts it in lool
<NCommander> *as
<NCommander> [topic] move debian-cd for imx51 completely to redboot-tools
<MootBot> New Topic:  move debian-cd for imx51 completely to redboot-tools
<NCommander> That's a ogra spec if I ever saw one.
<ogra> yep
<ogra> mine
<NCommander> ogra, medium ok?
 * ogra grabs greedy
<ogra> yup
<NCommander> [topic] Application changes for UNR
<MootBot> New Topic:  Application changes for UNR
<StevenK> We already have cross-compiliers in the archive
<StevenK> Me
 * NCommander feels like he's seen this spec before
<dyfet> Is that not a dup?
<StevenK> Yeah, we've already deva'd this vu
<ogra> really ?
<StevenK> Anyway, it needs more discussion
<ogra> i thought its about screen resolution etc
<NCommander> [topic] ARM Softbootloader
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM Softbootloader
 * NCommander coughs
<StevenK> So it's a new Lucid spec
<ogra> right
<NCommander> This one is mine
<StevenK> And it isn't about screen res
 * NCommander sticks it under wishlist, and moves on
<NCommander> [topic]  clean up d-cd armel backends to remove a ton of code duplication between imx51 and dove
<MootBot> New Topic:   clean up d-cd armel backends to remove a ton of code duplication between imx51 and dove
<ogra> NCommander, make it medium
<NCommander> I'd like this one personally
<ogra> NCommander, we likely get new SoCs that actually need softboot loader
<NCommander> ogra, *groan*
<ogra> so make it more than wishlist
<NCommander> ogra, medium then
<ogra> yup
<NCommander> And I'll shoot it dead if we don't need it
<njpatel> StevenK: Sorry, was away
<NCommander> ARM Softbootloader is the Duke Nukem Forever of Ubuntu specs.
<StevenK> NCommander: No, UNR Applications is
<ogra> oh wonderful vaporware
<StevenK> We have talked about MID/UNR Applications at every UDS that I've attended
<NCommander> Anyway
<StevenK> njpatel: Spec talking about maximus blacklist, you're aware of it?
<njpatel> StevenK: nope
<NCommander> Any objections to me taking the d-cd armel backend refactoring?
<StevenK> njpatel: You are now :-P
<ogra> nope
<njpatel> StevenK: indeed :)
<NCommander> StevenK, I nicked that one in favor the session one
<StevenK> NCommander: Who will sponsor your work?
<NCommander> StevenK, ogra or lool, as both did work with me in writing the dove backend
<ogra> StevenK, debian-cd you mean ?
<ogra> StevenK, that would be me or lool ...
<StevenK> NCommander: I think the maximus blacklist spec warrants some discussion
<StevenK> Fair enough
<NCommander> yea(its not TOO bad ATM, but if we keep adding SoCs, d-cd is going to become sentient and kill us in our sleeps)
<StevenK> Going to become? Hell, it is
 * ogra doesnt see so much duplication yet ... but yeah
<NCommander> ogra, the fact of the matter is the image creation bits for ARM are ... fugly at best
<JamieBennett> NCommander: Can I take the "UEFI bootloader based on Apple's Cortex A8/A9 work" off you, I'm feeling left out :)
<NCommander> VFAT images are a hack with d-cd ATM
<NCommander> JamieBennett, sure
<ogra> NCommander, well, there is a spec for ext2/3 vs vfat ;)
<StevenK> Poor JamieBennett, it's quick and the un-fed around here
<NCommander> ogra, yeah, I tossed that idea around with lool
 * JamieBennett sits here with his 3 specs
<NCommander> [topic] stacked squashfs builds for live images (separate rootfs and kernel/modules completely)
<MootBot> New Topic:  stacked squashfs builds for live images (separate rootfs and kernel/modules completely)
 * NCommander looks at ogra
<ogra> mine !
<NCommander> ogra, priority?
<ogra> but pointless if we switch to alternate :(
<ogra> high i'd have said
<ogra> but not sure anymore
<ogra> make it medium
<NCommander> [topic] hardware based system recovery
<MootBot> New Topic:  hardware based system recovery
<ogra> no idea what that means
<NCommander> This one is mine, and this is another Duke Nukem Forever spec
<ogra> or who added it
<NCommander> ogra, I dunno, I think someone edited that line
<ogra> ah
<NCommander> Basically, this is having the installer install itself to the installation media so you can reinstall without the original disk
<ogra> if you have the diskspace
<NCommander> ogra, indeed
<NCommander> Its probably worthwhile to at least consider it
<ogra> call it recovery partition then ... thats what it is ;)
<NCommander> ogra, it won't get implemented if I do that. If I give it a new name, it might get implemented ;-)
<dyfet> OEM's may like it...
<JamieBennett> ogra: Ah now I understand :)
<NCommander> [topic]  * casper cleanup/speedup
<MootBot> New Topic:   * casper cleanup/speedup
 * ogra looks at JamieBennett 
 * NCommander looks at JamieBennett 
 * JamieBennett puts his hand up slowly
<ogra> heh
 * NCommander prays for mercy on JamieBennett's soul
<ogra> its not that hard
<NCommander> ogra, debugging casper isn't. Making it run fast probably will be
<ogra> and mainly i think its ok for lucid to first simply identify the slow bits
<NCommander> [topic] ext2 images versus vfat
<MootBot> New Topic:  ext2 images versus vfat
 * NCommander waves
<ogra> take it
<ogra> and make that ext3
<ogra> ext2 is to fragile
<StevenK> I'd make a joke, but then I might get more specs
<NCommander> ogra, its ext2 for dove :-/
<NCommander> StevenK, oh, so you want this spec?
<StevenK> NCommander: No
<ogra> NCommander, it needs to be ext3
<NCommander> [topic] rootstock gui
<MootBot> New Topic:  rootstock gui
<NCommander> Er
<ogra> else you end up with inconsistent FS
<NCommander> didn't this one get implemented?
<ogra> no gui
<ogra> its mine
<NCommander> [topic]  multiarch execution environment with qemu static
<MootBot> New Topic:   multiarch execution environment with qemu static
 * NCommander looks at ogra 
<ogra> give it to me as low prio
<NCommander> [topic]  * Moblin Remix Reloaded
<MootBot> New Topic:   * Moblin Remix Reloaded
<dyfet> I may talk with you a bit on that one, ogra
<NCommander> Are we doing Moblin for another cycle?
<ogra> dyfet, if you are intrested, feel free to take it
<StevenK> We should discuss it
<ogra> NCommander, no idea yet
<dyfet> ogra: ok
 * NCommander assigns to StevenK
<StevenK> No, persia
<StevenK> (Seriously)
<plars> and he's not here to defend himself, even better
<NCommander> [topic]  * Netbook Application changes
<MootBot> New Topic:   * Netbook Application changes
<NCommander> Hrm
<ogra> dyfet, note that this one is about adding other arches similar to qemu-static-armel
<NCommander> I think that's a dupe
<ogra> yeah
<dyfet> ogra: that is what I assumed
<NCommander> [topic] Optimizations for SSD netbooks
<StevenK> Yeah, dupe
<MootBot> New Topic:  Optimizations for SSD netbooks
<plars> that one belongs to GrueMaster, right?
<NCommander> Who wants that one
<plars> :)
<dyfet> I suggested this one...
<dyfet> But if GrueMaster wants it...
<NCommander> That's all the brainstorm specs
 * ogra hapily offers test cycles on his new SSD :)
<plars> dyfet: I was talking about the previous
<NCommander> ogra, I envy!
 * JamieBennett has a 8GB ssd :)
 * ogra ordered a 128G one
<JamieBennett> mmmmm
 * NCommander wonders if we should bring up the rebuildder spec
 * StevenK has a 2G SSD in his new firewall
<NCommander> That was one that didn't go anywhere for karmic
<ogra> 230MB/s read ... 200MB/s write :)
<NCommander> and we have people who want to rebuild Ubuntu
<NCommander> People: FOCUS!
<GrueMaster> sorry I'm late.  DST.
<StevenK> Shiny, shiny shoes ...
<NCommander> GrueMaster, we assigned all the specs to you. Have fun :_)
<NCommander> *:-)
<StevenK> BWAHAHAHA
<StevenK> NCommander wins
<ogra> heh
<NCommander> Things I never thought StevenK would say: <StevenK> NCommander wins
 * StevenK takes it back
<NCommander> StevenK, sorry, its already on the IRC Log ;-)
<StevenK> Damn it, my list of people to kill grows
<NCommander> Anyway, anyone want to suggest any more specs
<StevenK> NCommander: At the risk of incuring ogra's wrath: Fixing touchscreens
<ogra> StevenK, moved to desktop ;)
<NCommander> ogra wins.
<ogra> let them get the hard time :P
<StevenK> Haha
<StevenK> You're going to sit in that spec and throw rocks, aren't you?
<dyfet> NCommander: there is LXDE as a spec, but it is informational/tracking the community effort
<NCommander> Actually, I have an information spec
<ogra> StevenK, definately :P
<NCommander> Two actually
<StevenK> ogra: You bad man :-)
<NCommander> One for ARM kernel versions
 * ogra dings a bell ... 
<ogra> 3 minutes left
<NCommander> And one for what we're doing for ARM w.r.t. to LTS
<NCommander> (if anything)
<StevenK> Time Gentleman, Please
<NCommander> ogra, we'll move into #ubuntu-mobile
<NCommander> Who wants them?
<StevenK> (10 geek points whoever gets the reference)
 * StevenK looks at JamieBennett 
<ogra> one important note ... please have your specs in LP *bafore* the friday call !!!
<ogra> *before even
<JamieBennett> PUB time :)
<ogra> its fine if they are empty apart from a description and an empty wikipage
 * NCommander adds his specs to the page
<StevenK> JamieBennett: :-D
<ogra> but david needs the reference for the schedule
<ogra> NCommander, wrap up ?
<NCommander> [topic] ABO
<MootBot> New Topic:  ABO
<NCommander> er
<NCommander> [topic] AOB
<MootBot> New Topic:  AOB
 * NCommander fails
 * ogra grins
<StevenK> I vote we rename "Any Other Business" ABO
<ogra> seems there is "Ubuntu Liquid Remix" on the agenda for AOB
<ogra> what is it ?
<StevenK> MID
<StevenK> Effectively
<NCommander> [vote] Rename "Any Other Business" to ABO
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Rename "Any Other Business" to ABO.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<StevenK> Haha!
<mhall119|work> liquid remix?
<StevenK> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from StevenK. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<NCommander> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from NCommander. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<ogra> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from ogra. 2 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 2
<plars> -1
<MootBot> -1 received from plars. 2 for, 1 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 1
<ogra> come on
<JamieBennett> +0
<GrueMaster> -1
<MootBot> Abstention received from JamieBennett. 2 for, 1 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 1
<MootBot> -1 received from GrueMaster. 2 for, 2 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 0
<ogra> we're out of time
<NCommander> #endvote
<NCommander> [endvote]
<MootBot> Final result is 2 for, 2 against. 2 abstained. Total: 0
<ogra> i thionk the liquid remix thing is MER ?
<NCommander> the motion doesn't pass
<NCommander> Anyway, anything else
<NCommander> Going once
<StevenK> ogra: It is
<NCommander> twice
<NCommander> 2 and three quarters
<NCommander> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 08:02.
<JamieBennett> ogra: I have some experience there if need be.
<ogra> NCommander, would have been nice to have some info from ian_brasil ....
<ogra> before ending the meeting :P
<ogra> since he made the effort to put it up on the agenda
<ogra> anyway
<NCommander> ogra, er, I just copied the page over
 * ogra moves away from -meeting
<davidm> Hmm, I've been google calendared
<ogra> davidm, yes, gcal is totally broken
<ogra> one hour off still
<plars> davidm: I almost was as well, but luckily hopped on at 6:50 this morning and saw others discussing the confusion
<ogra> davidm, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/LucidSpecifications has the list we worked out
<plars> I think we should just all end this dst silliness and be done with it
<davidm> ogra, thanks
<davidm> plars, I agree
<StevenK> davidm, plars: Spec it
 * StevenK hides
<ian_brasil> ogra, that AOB is carried over from a couple of weeks ago
<ogra> ian_brasil, yeah, and i thought you were waiting to present it ... sorry
<kees> o/
<pitti> \o
<sabdfl> afternoon/evening/morning all
<kees> heya sabdfl!  we're waiting for a few more tb folks.  currently it's you, pitti, and myself
<cjwatson> hi, I'm on-site and have 25 minutes
<sabdfl> thanks kees
<kees> pitti: you're chair this round, yes?
<pitti> erm, if I shall do that, I'm completely unprepared
<sabdfl> i volunteered
<sabdfl> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda
<kees> oh, perhaps the minutes weren't updated
<sabdfl> cjwatson: you are available now for 25, or will be available in 25?
<cjwatson> the former
<sabdfl> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 09:08. The chair is sabdfl.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<sabdfl> [TOPIC] Archive reorganisation
<MootBot> New Topic:  Archive reorganisation
<cjwatson> nothing to report this time really, busy releasing :-) we had a DMB meeting which unblocked some bits
<sabdfl> cjwatson: do you recall the debate we had about retaining an "unseeded packages" permission, or group?
 * cjwatson checks the logs quickly
<pitti> we never officially finished the voting about delegating kubuntu/mythbuntu/desktop either, I think
<sabdfl> it was a long time ago, early in the archive reorg discussion
<cjwatson> sabdfl: yes, I think the agreement was to retain that but documentation hasn't been updated
<cjwatson> we discussed it last UDS in the hallway, I recall
<sabdfl> ok. i was opposed to a group who's mandate was negatively defined - "you can upload anything that nobody else has asked for"
<sabdfl> anyhow, i want to flag that folks on the MC appear to want to retain something like MOTU
<sabdfl> I recall you quite liked the idea too, but wasn't sure how you now feel
<cjwatson> you then said at UDS that you would be content with it as a transitional measure
<sabdfl> yes
<cjwatson> although I think MC folks want more than that
<sabdfl> yes
<cjwatson> I like the idea but am not sure how to reconcile it with your objection. Can it be made a matter of presentation?
<sabdfl> i'm going to spend time with the MC folks on the issues
<sabdfl> i *thought* they would prefer to become core-dev
<sabdfl> if they are interested in retaining leadership of a group which can upload anywhere that there are not explicit permissions, how do the TB feel?
<pitti> negative seeding somehow feels strange to me
<kees> it sounded like there was concern over loss of motu culture (which would be a problem with either losing motu or joining core-dev).  however, it sounds like this culture must adapt given the reorg.
<pitti> I'm not opposed to having it, but the effects would be weird
<cjwatson> I think they would prefer to become core-dev but also (perhaps as a result of the structure of the Ubuntu development community up until now) feel that it's important for there to be a sense of ownership of things that aren't in the seeded sets
<cjwatson> pitti: "weird" in the sense of "a bit like the way Ubuntu has operated up until now"? :-:-)
<cjwatson> gosh, lag-induced mutant smiley
<kees> if there is a team for unseeded sets that is not core-dev, what defines core-dev?
<sabdfl> kees: good point
<pitti> cjwatson: well, the way it works right now is pretty clear; but if we splice up the archive into the new "per-project" parts instead of main/universe, it becomes like a dumping ground
<cjwatson> err, I'm not sure that premise makes sense
<sabdfl> in that sense it's just "a second policy group"
<cjwatson> core-dev is everything, as before
<sabdfl> which is a  bit weird
<sabdfl> look, i think they have enjoyed the responsibilities, more than anything else
<sabdfl> there has been a *lot* of great work done
<sabdfl> decisions to be taken. dates to be set. commitments and goals to meet
<sabdfl> and i think that community has enjoyed defining and taking up that responsibility
<cjwatson> I think it's more than that
<cjwatson> it's important for the health of Ubuntu that people are taking care of the long tail of packages that aren't part of the major flavours we ship
<sabdfl> +1
<pitti> not to forget the technical aspect of being able to upload/fix thousands of packages that a lot of people use
 * cjwatson recalls the blue sky bombshell :-)
<cjwatson> and I do actually think that a number of people within MOTU have internalised that goal
<pitti> which they suddenly couldn't do any more if a lot of those end up in project seeds
<sabdfl> pitti: they don't seem to be objecting to the idea of package sets around things like xfce which are coherent
<sabdfl> so much as missing the piece that cjwatson describes - responsibility for the long tail
<pitti> right, I didn't imply that
<cjwatson> no, I don't think there's substantial objection to that; the very point of package sets is that somebody is taking care of them
<pitti> just that current MOTUs, many of which are generalists, would certainly like to be able to upload all those packages in the future, too
<cjwatson> and indeed most MOTUs when asked stated that they wanted to become core-devs as a goal
<cjwatson> but I think that is separate from what their goals are
<cjwatson> err
<cjwatson> that made NO SENSE
<sabdfl> we can still leave that option open to them
<cjwatson> I think that's separate from what their purpose is, as opposed to their direction
<cjwatson> if you see what I mean
<sabdfl> is it harmful to have a governing board for that long tail? i can't think of a case where MC decisions have created complications for the core, can anyone here?
<cjwatson> it is perfectly coherent for somebody to want to work their way towards core-dev, but for their actual interest still to be in managing the long tail
<sabdfl> conversely, is it helpful?
<jono> I am not aware of a MC decision affecting core
<pitti> sabdfl: I can't remember complications; we have lived a long time with having differnet policies for main/universe without much trouble
<sabdfl> motu's that are interested in a particular package set could certainly gain permissions for that
<sabdfl> so it's not like we'd have the main problem, where stuff migrated AWAY from the people who were doing a great job maintaining it in universe
<cjwatson> I'm generally opposed to a proliferation of governing bodies unless it's helpful (IOW I think the default state is harmful) but in this case my sense is that the MC have done a fine job of being much more aware of issues in the long tail than the TB have been able to be
<pitti> ^ quite a lot of overhead for a quick FTBFS fix or merge, though
<sabdfl> it's also a good source of talent
<jono> do we have any visibility on how many MOTUs really dip into the long tail or merely touch focused packages?
<sabdfl> no stats that i'm aware of
<cjwatson> my opposition is mainly to having significantly different procedures and practices for the two segments of the developer community
<cjwatson> but the MC in and of itself is not a source of that
<jono> agreed
<sabdfl> they have published different freeze dates on occasion, but i haven't seen that cause any confusion
<cjwatson> how many MOTUs> I don't have numerical stats, although I got some feel for it from the mails we sent out asking them what their goals were; it's not all by any means but a respectable subset
<jono> I believe there has been general worries in the past where MOTUs felt like second-class developers
<sabdfl> right now, i'm feeling it's worth engaging with them and being open to retaining an explicit MOTU role, which is a shift in my position
<jono> but I think that perspective wore away somewhat
<cjwatson> the concern that one MC member raised about motu-sru being procedurally unable to operate was new to me, and I'll look into that once I return from the US
<sabdfl> jono: yes, that's been the concern in the past
<cjwatson> the intent was to more or less unify ubuntu-sru and motu-sru, because there's not much point in divergence there, but the intent was not to magically disenfranchise motu-sru
<cjwatson> so I think that was an error that crept in somehow
<pitti> cjwatson: wrt motu-sru, AFAIR I already asked some members whether they would be fine about being merged into ~ubuntu-sru, and having one common policy
<sabdfl> pitti: did you get a response we can act on?
<cjwatson> sure, but in the meantime motu-sru should still be able to operate
<pitti> which is why we already changed the policy document
<pitti> sabdfl: I'll collect it again, on ubuntu-devel@, to have a paper trail
<jono> so what is the primary we are seeking an answer for here? whether to have a motu-like body that covers the long-tail?
<pitti> sabdfl: right now, the wiki policy and team setup is inconsistent, so we need to fix one or the other
<sabdfl> pitti: i'm in favour of empowering the folks who feel like they just got disempowered accidentally
<cjwatson> similarly we've had some discussions about merging ubuntu-release and motu-release, and generally trying to eliminate unnecessary duplication; but I don't feel at the moment that that applies to the MOTU Council
<cjwatson> that isn't useless duplication, it's useful AFAICS
<pitti> cjwatson: +1
<sabdfl> jono: yes. can we do that without the negative connotations
<sabdfl> is the question.
<sabdfl> maybe we should put the question to them:
<cjwatson> I don't think they feel that it's negative
<sabdfl>  "if we leave an MC and MOTU in place, what changes do you think would be appropriate subsequent to ArchiveReorg"?
 * kees nods
<sabdfl> that certainly reduces the pressure to move folks from motu to core-dev
<jono> agreed
<pitti> well, there are two options AFAICS: (1) define them as "upload anything not explicitly covered", and (2) define them as "package generalists who can upload to all project-seeded packages except core"
<sabdfl> which has been a concern
<pitti> where I'm definitively in favor of (2)
<cjwatson> (I'm not saying it doesn't necessarily appear negative to some new people)
<sabdfl> do we have a definition for core?
<cjwatson> we do but I'm not sure it's what pitti means?
<cjwatson> there is a 'core' package set which is all the stuff that's in everything
<cjwatson> but it does not e.g. include the Ubuntu desktop (most of it anyway)
<pitti> I'm not quite sure about the definition of "core" (i. e. the set of packages ubuntu-core-dev has special privileges on)
<cjwatson> the core package set is not the same as historical (ubuntu-core-dev minus motu)
<pitti> but I'd rather define "MOTU" as a packaging generalist than "one who can only deal with the long tail of packages"
<jono> is it possible to identify core packages and then everything that is not core is considered the long tail
<sabdfl> we could start with pitti's (1) with the view that any motu can apply to upload to a package set they are especially interested in
<cjwatson> jono: everything is possible given coherent requirements
<sabdfl> jono: sort of gets us back to main :-/
<jono> sabdfl, indeed
<cjwatson> yes, I don't like defining things in terms of historical main either
<sabdfl> agreed
<sabdfl> ok, do i have a mandate from TB to discuss some sort of continuation of MOTU with the MC?
<cjwatson> sabdfl: (1) with the view ...> agreed
<cjwatson> sabdfl: I'd like that, yes
<sabdfl> if we do it, MOTU will either thrive, or folks will slowly move to core+interested-sets
<pitti> so all the MOTUs who want to do QA-like work (FTBFS/merges/etc.) should apply to core-dev then?
<cjwatson> pitti: no?
<cjwatson> I mean, no more than currently
<sabdfl> pitti: yes if they want to do that on stuff which is part of a non-restricted packageset
<cjwatson> if they want to cover the whole archive, they need to
<cjwatson> but if they just want to address the long tail, they don't
<pitti> ok
<sabdfl> cjwatson: do we have restricted package sets, where generalists need to join the specific permission groups?
<pitti> it just seems weird to me to drop upload privileges from them once e. g. mythbuntu or the ubuntu games team starts seeding a package
<kees> seems they would like maintain the definition of motu == !core, but we don't yet have a clear meaning of core yet.
<pitti> it's not much different than universe->main promotion of course
<jono> unless I am getting something wrong, it strikes me will always end of up with a main-like definition as we have the concept of packages we consider precious and everything else
<kees> pitti: right, that team would constantly lose privs, which seems ugly
<sabdfl> but on the other hand, it should be much easier for them to "regain" the priv for that specific package(set)
<sabdfl> than to get core-dev
<sabdfl> let's wrap that issue, I will take it up with MC and revert to TB
<sabdfl> thanks for the discussion
<jono> thanks sabdfl
<pitti> jono: yeah, the "commercially supported" aspect of main is still very fuzzy to me in this new world
<sabdfl> [ACTION] sabdfl to speak with MC and revert to TB
<MootBot> ACTION received:  sabdfl to speak with MC and revert to TB
<sabdfl> [TOPIC]
<MootBot> New Topic:
<sabdfl> erk
<sabdfl> [TOPIC] Python convergence in Ubuntu and Debian
<MootBot> New Topic:  Python convergence in Ubuntu and Debian
<cjwatson> sabdfl: I don't believe that any of our current sets are restricted, although we haven't excluded the possibility; if we do I think it would just be the kernel
<cjwatson> my alarm has gone off to indicate that I can no longer IRC in the jetlag limbo, so I'll have to go
<sabdfl> steve mcintyre and i discussed the current divergence and lack of cooperation between ubuntu and debian on Python packages
<sabdfl> cjwatson: thanks very much
<cjwatson> (unfortunately, since I'm interested in this, but I'll read logs)
<sabdfl> cjwatson: regards to the on-site team
<cjwatson> will do
<sabdfl> jono was on the call
<pitti> bye cjwatson
<sabdfl> I expressed the view that the divergence was more social than technical, and harmful to both projects
<sabdfl> and asked Steve if he would support us asking the Ubuntu TB and Debian technical architecture committee to review both positions and see if they can make a consensus position
<sabdfl> he said he would do so
<sabdfl> jono, has this been raised here before?
<jono> sabdfl, not that I am aware of
<pitti> well, it's still rather technical still, AFAICS; e. g. now we have a completely empty set of commonly supported python versions
<pitti> (sid: 2.4/2.5, lucid: 2.6 only)
<kees> IIUC, the separation of the python is a technical one, similar to the toolchain, where we have to make design decisions based on our release schedule?
<sabdfl> ok. This is just to flag the issue for the TB and to ask if there are any objections here to such an approach in order to resolve the divergence one way or the other
<jono> our thinking was that it could be useful for the TB to discuss this with the Debian Technical Committee in a joint session
<jono> robbie also recommended we discuss our Python policy at UDS
<pitti> that would certainly be helpful, especially to see whether a Python transition to 2.6 is still on the table for squeeze, etc.
<sabdfl> kees: the ubuntu and debian maintainers have different opinions about how best to do Python
<sabdfl> and there is currently no pressure for convergence - each is effectively master in their domain
<sabdfl> both are competent guys
<sabdfl> unfortunately, the accusation has been made against the ubuntu maintainer that he's taken certain decisions specifically to benefit Ubuntu, which I don't believe to be the case at all
<sabdfl> but it's allowed the divergence to persist
<jono> would the TB be happy to offer an invitation to a discussion between the TB and the DTC, including both Python maintainers, to discuss this topic?
<sabdfl> anyhow, if we agree to be bound in arbitration by a joint decision, that could have a big impact on ubuntu if the joint group goes the debian route
<sabdfl> jono: we can agree to discuss, or we can commit to going with a consensus view if one emerges
<jono> it strikes me that a discussion is needed first, and a general opinion may well emerge
<sabdfl> +1 from me to jono's question. kees?
<pitti> sure, there might be other Python areas where we can cooperate better, even if it's not aligning on supported versions
<pitti> (which is tricky to do given our different release cycles)
<kees> +1
<pitti> so +1
<sabdfl> ok
<jono> while I am happy to offer the invite, I think it may be stronger coming from a TB member
<pitti> from my POV I'd like to settle the pysupport vs. pycentral question once and for all
<jono> would one of you be happy to do this?
<sabdfl> pitti, could you discuss this with doko? or should i?
<pitti> sabdfl: can do
<sabdfl> jono: i wonder if the invitation shouldn't come from Steve, or Steve and I
<jono> sabdfl, Steve and yourself would be perfect
<jono> sabdfl, I think we have a call scheduled for Wed anyway
<jono> oh, maybe not
<sabdfl> [ACTION] sabdfl to draft invitation to DTC and TB to confer and offer a view on python packaging
<MootBot> ACTION received:  sabdfl to draft invitation to DTC and TB to confer and offer a view on python packaging
<jono> thanks sabdfl
<sabdfl> ok, who knows what to do about community bugs?
<pitti> I'll do some preparation with doko before
<pitti> there are no open community bugs
<jono> sabdfl, these are bugs asssigned to the TB, and I don't believe we have any
<jono> so that is an easy one to step over :)
<kees> I think we didn't review actions from the last meeting yet?
<sabdfl> kees: url?
<kees> but with a few people missing, perhaps best to skip?
<kees> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TeamReports/October2009#Technical%20Board
<kees> unit policy and ec2 were the two actions I see from there
<pitti> and upload delegation voting
<sabdfl> DMB review, jono?
<pitti> (which started happening on the ML, but wasn't concluded)
<kees> pitti: ah, yes, thanks
<jono> I asked Daniel to draft this, and his work is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperMembershipBoard
<jono> I believe he coordinated wit pitti on this too
<pitti> we had a call this morning
<sabdfl> it's a little terse
<pitti> there's not much meat yet, though
<jono> yes
<sabdfl> Keybuk: do we have a result on the units policy?
<sabdfl> smoser: was the TB input sufficient for you to close out the AMI / ARI / AKI policy?
<sabdfl> let's move on to AOB
<sabdfl> going
<sabdfl> going
<jono> nope
<sabdfl> who will chair the next meeting?
<pitti> will do
<jono> thanks folks
<pitti> thanks sabdfl
<kees> 17th... that'll be UDS
<sabdfl> more fun in person :-)
<sabdfl> thanks pitti, thanks all
<kees> I can chair it -- it'll be at 9am local
<sabdfl> oh - pitti or kees?
<kees> er, sorry, if pitti wants it, that's cool.
<sabdfl> ok, pitti it is, kees, i think you volunteered for the next one :-)
<pitti> I don't insist :) but yeah, fine
<kees> sabdfl: sounds fine to me.
<sabdfl> i'll update the TeamReport
<sabdfl> thanks all
<smoser> sabdfl, yes. to above.
<sabdfl> smoser: thanks, will note in the minutes
<sabdfl> smoser: url?
<smoser> i still need to update. but i do have sufficient info.
<kees> (sabdfl: #endmeeting ?)
<smoser> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UEC/Images/Publishing is url
<smoser> sorry, that was bad url : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UEC/Images/RefreshPolicy
<sabdfl> smoser: and "right root filesystem"?
<sabdfl> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 09:59.
<sabdfl> phew just in time ;-)
<smoser> sabdfl, looking at logs for more context on "right root filesystem"
<[v-8]_jupiter> sabdfl : Show a screenshot of your desktop
<[v-8]_jupiter> )
<smoser> sabdfl, looking at the meeting log from last week, i can't really remember what "right root filesytem" meant.  However, I'll update the RefreshPolicy doc with as much info as I can.
<Ddorda0> is there a meeting to membership application today?
<czajkowski> Ddorda0: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/EMEA today @ 20:00 UTC
<czajkowski> I've no idea about America https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/Americas
<czajkowski> AsiaOceania  is next week
<Ddorda0> well, I signed up to AsiaOceania, but I'm not sure I'm part of it
<Ddorda0> does Israel is part of it?
<czajkowski> Ddorda0: not sure but asiaocean is nov 10th
<FFEMTcJ> Ddorda0: you can apply to any of them is my understanding
<FFEMTcJ> doesnt have to be the one for your area
<FFEMTcJ> im in the us and am applying at the emea tonight
<Ddorda0> oh// really?
<FFEMTcJ> thats my understanding
<mhall119|work> yes, you can apply to any board
<mhall119|work> any regional board anyway
<mhall119|work> depending on which scheduling works best for you
<FFEMTcJ> its mhall119|work
<FFEMTcJ> lol
<mhall119|work> ?
<mhall119|work> oh, heh, I'm in a lot of channels
<mhall119|work>  /whois mhall119
<FFEMTcJ> only 3
<czajkowski> mhall119|work: you've a mode on that only shows some of the channels if a person looks you up and they are in them
<czajkowski> mhall119|work: I only see you in 2
<mhall119|work> what?
<mhall119|work> oh, ok
<mhall119|work> didn't know that
 * mhall119|work doesn't know much about IRC modes
<czajkowski> mhall119|work: see pm
<Seveas> EMEA in 36 minutes?
<Seveas> popey, prod
<popey> o/
<MTecknology> where at?
<MTecknology> ^wrong chan, sorry
<Joeb454> hey forumsmatthew
<forumsmatthew> hey!
<popey> yo
<josepgallart> ok
<frandieguez> 10 minutes to EMEA isn't it?
<forumsmatthew> yes
<forestpiskie> hi forumsmatthew
<forumsmatthew> hey!
<forestpiskie> forumsmatthew: I snuck in here for a rest :)
<forumsmatthew> you are welcome
<Joeb454> forumsmatthew: you were meant to tell forestpiskie to get back to modding ;)
<Bodsda> Evening all
<Joeb454> he's lazy enough as it is!
<FFEMTcJ> hello
<A4Tech> hi all
<forumsmatthew> lol
<forestpiskie> Joeb454: bah
<Joeb454> forestpiskie: <3
<Joeb454> lol
<forestpiskie> Joeb454: I'm in the middle of moving house :) cam here to shout loudly
<Joeb454> forestpiskie: don't blame you, hope that goes well btw
<forestpiskie> so do I :D
<popey> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/EMEA
<popey> FYI
<popey> crikey, full schedule
<Bodsda> :)
 * popey goes to get his laptop charger
<A4Tech> aim1159: q
<Bodsda> popey: And some cookies
<aim1159> A4Tech: hi
<aim1159> hello all!
<frandieguez> hi to all!
<fmolinero> Hi!
<Bodsda> *waves*
<A4Tech> :)
<Silver_Fox_> Hello =]
<heikki> hi!
<popey> Bodsda: fish pie for tea :)
<Bodsda> popey: Tuna pasta :)
<forestpiskie> oooh fish pie :)
<popey> home made, by my own fair hands
<forumsmatthew> I'm impressed!
<popey> right then, we all here?
<Bodsda> Sounds nice
<forestpiskie> popey: washed I hope :)
<popey> of course :)
<markvandenborre> hi
<popey> hey markvandenborre !
<MTecknology> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/EMEA
<markvandenborre> phew! just in time!
<popey> good timing
<forumsmatthew> yay
<popey> majestyx isnt here?
<popey> Silver_Fox_: you're up
<Silver_Fox_> Hello,  my name is Silver Fox.  I am from the United Kingdom.  I have been using Ubuntu since just prior to Hardy both at work but also at home.  I am mostly active within the Ubuntu Beginners Team.  Professionally I work as a web developer and database admin.
<Bodsda> w00t Go Silver_Fox_ !!!!
<forestpiskie> I hope you are there Silver_Fox_ - I am here to shout for you :)
<popey> golly, look at all those testimonials
<Joeb454> I thought I'd do a testimonial & turn up to shout as well
<Joeb454> well, not shout, but you get the idea :)
<Silver_Fox_> I am was a little surprised in a nice way popey
<popey> Rihght, based on solid testimonials, thats a +1 from me
<forumsmatthew> I've just finished reading everything (plus, I do actually know people who are active in the forums, whether they realize it or not...)
<forumsmatthew> I'm +1
<markvandenborre> +1
<forumsmatthew> :)
<markvandenborre> congratulations, you're in
<popey> Seveas is here too :)
<Silver_Fox_> Wow.  Thank you all!
<Silver_Fox_> Thanks to the team for the nice words you put on my wiki =]
<forestpiskie> woohoo - congrats Silver_Fox_ :)
<MTecknology> popey: what about the bot?
<Joeb454> congrats Silver_Fox_
<popey> Seveas you about?
<Bodsda> yay!
<Bodsda> congrats Silver_Fox_
<Seveas> oia
<TuxPurple> congrats Silver_Fox_ :)
<Silver_Fox_> Thank you!
<MTecknology> popey: #startmeeting ;)
<frandieguez> congrats Silver_Fox_ !!
<Seveas> was fighting git, sorry for being late
<Joeb454> lol
<phanatic> hello, i hope i'm not too late...
<popey> np Seveas
<Bodsda> I think that is a very valid excuse :)
<forumsmatthew> phanatic is here too!
<popey> ulysses is missing...
<forumsmatthew> congrats, Silver_Fox_
<popey> delphiexile is missing...
<markvandenborre> delphiexile too
<popey> papapep you're up!
<papapep> Hello everybody. My name is Josep SÃ nchez (aka papapep), and I'm from the Catalan Loco Team. I work as IT Manager. I use to try to help people in the forum, irc channel and mailing lists. I've invested some time creating the new loco website, and administering it. I love running the LoCo events, and helping people to "exorcize" their computers and install Ubuntu on them. I also spend some time, not as much as I would like, translating documentatio
<papapep> ups, seems too long, sorry about that...
<Seveas> (wiki is being slow for me)
<rafael_carreras> I'm here to cheer for papapep :)
<forumsmatthew> Those are wonderful testimonials!
<popey> yeah
<forumsmatthew> rafael_carreras, anything you want to add to what you have already said on the wiki?
<papapep> forumsmatthew: I felt really embarassed reading them :)
<rafael_carreras> i think the wiki is quite complete
<Seveas> wiki says +1
<Seveas> :)
<popey> yup, +1 from me too
<forumsmatthew> absolutely!+1
<phanatic> impressive, +1 keep up the great work!
<Seveas> markvandenborre, ?
<markvandenborre> +1, really pleased to see someone with a similar trajectory to mine
<popey> excellent!
<Seveas> ok, added to LP as well (same for silver-fox)
<markvandenborre> and may I add that I love seeing all this activity around free software in Catalonia(n)
<papapep> many, many thanks to everybody!!
<markvandenborre> keep up the good work!
<forumsmatthew> congratulations!
<Bodsda> papapep: congrats!
<frandieguez> enorabuena papapep !!!
<Seveas> fmolinero, you're up
<papapep> muchas gracias :)
<fmolinero> Hi all
<fmolinero> My name is Francisco Molinero, from Spain, and my main contribution is translating to Spanish. I work every day in it.
<fmolinero> My Job is in a little company on Laser technologies field, and my position is Network manager (Ubuntu server. of course)
<popey> woah, look at that karma!
<forumsmatthew> Whoa! look at the karma on LP--
<popey> (and the beard)
<forumsmatthew> lol
<Seveas> I see a large amount of translation karma (rock!) but an almost empty wikipage. So I find it hard to judge
<popey> hah
<phanatic> is anyone here from the spanish team?
<Seveas> I'd like to see someone comment on the translation quality before I give a +1, so +0 for now
<markvandenborre> +0 too
<phanatic> i agree with Seveas, it would be better to have some testimonials. +0
<fmolinero> ok
<popey> fmolinero: reckon you can round some people up and get them in here before the end of the meeting?
<markvandenborre> as in ... please document your (probably great!) efforts a bit more before applying
<forumsmatthew> I would say the only thing missing are testimonials from people who can judge the translation work directly. If those are in place it will be an easy approval
<fmolinero> ok I will try
<forumsmatthew> please come back! I agree with popey if you can get back before we're done, that would rock
<Seveas> indeed
<Seveas> moving on to josepgallart for now
<markvandenborre> I'd like to see some more work on the wiki page too, regardless of possible supporters
<MTecknology> frandieguez: What is this? "Branck nick"
<frandieguez> Hi!
<frandieguez> no it's my name
<MTecknology> fmolinero: *
<Seveas> josepgallart not in? heikki you're up then
<heikki> Good evening everyone! My name is Heikki MÃ¤ntysaari and I'm a physics student at the University of JyvÃ¤skylÃ¤.
<heikki> I've been an active member of Ubuntu Finland for some years. My main contributions have been in a localization field: I'm an administrator of the Ubuntu Finnish translators and Launchpad Finnish translators teams. I also maintain one package in Debian and Ubuntu atm (mozvoikko).
<josepgallart> hola
 * rhkfin cheers for Heikki
<heikki> In addition to Ubuntu I've contributed in a more general way by maintaining http://linux.fi which is a Finnish wiki about Linux (there are something like 30 000 unique visitors a month, quite a well as there are just about 5 million people who speak Finnish])
<Seveas> ah
<heikki> For more information, please see my wiki page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HeikkiM%C3%A4ntysaari
<popey> josepgallart: we'll come back to you after heikki
<heikki> thanks rhkfin :)
<rhkfin> List of edits Heikki has made in the linux.fi -wiki: http://linux.fi/index.php?title=Toiminnot:Muokkaukset&limit=500&target=Heikki
<forumsmatthew> rhkfin, please tell me about heikki
<Seveas> +1 on heikki based on wiki and testimonials.
<rhkfin> (no, he didn't write linux.fi alone, but almost :)
<heikki> :)
<rhkfin> heikki is a hard worker: he chooses what he want's to do and then just simply does the job.
<markvandenborre> +1
<forumsmatthew> This was an easy +1
<popey> Yup, +1 from me too
<rhkfin> Be it translations, writing a blog entry or writing articles to linux.fi
<phanatic> +1
<markvandenborre> I really like the link with Debian!
<forumsmatthew> markvandenborre, agreed
<rhkfin> (some days ago he spent a day or two learning GIT - just to be able to write the article in the wiki :)
<markvandenborre> :)
<Seveas> rhkfin, sorry, but you can't learn git in two days
<markvandenborre> :)
<rhkfin> Seveas: well, the tutorial isn't complete too :)
<Bodsda> you can fully learn git?
<Seveas> I've worked with it for over a year now and still the @#$#@$@# won't do what I want ;)
<popey> :)
<rhkfin> Seveas: at least he tried :D
<Seveas> +0.5 for that alone :P
<MTecknology> Seveas: basics can be learned in a day though ;)
<forumsmatthew> congrats, heikki
<heikki> thanks!
<popey> congrats heikki keep up the great work!
<rhkfin> Onnea heikki :)
<Seveas> anyway, I see +5 already
 * rhkfin thinks now we're ~7 members in Finland.. more to come, I hope..
<Seveas> josepgallart, 2nd try :)
<popey> back to fmolinero
<popey> oops
<josepgallart> hola
<popey> er josepgallart sorry
<papapep> popey: josepgallart is a non english speaker
<papapep> but RainCT talked about it with jono
<Seveas> ah, that makes it a bit more challenging for us
<papapep> and he agreed that he could apply for his fabulous work
<papapep> yeo
<papapep> yep, I know
<markvandenborre> Aprecio molt els seus esforÃ§os, Josep!
<papapep> josepgallart: aixÃ² va per tu ;)
<papapep> escriu i jo et tradueixo / ill try to translate him, if you don't mind
<josepgallart> gracias
<josepgallart> el meu nom es Jo sep gallart badia
<Seveas> I like what I see but for advocacy-only applications I prefer to see 'evidence' as in reports/photos of events as well as testimonials from others
<Seveas> papapep, that is very kind of you
<josepgallart>  formo part del equip local de ubuntu en catala des de la seva fundacio
<papapep> he's part from the loco team from his first foundation
<josepgallart> la meva activitat esta encaminada a la difusio, de forme presencial
<forumsmatthew> I see some mention of his activity in the LoCo team. Could you describe that a bit more?
<papapep> josepgallart: els explico el que fas
<papapep> forumsmatthew: of course
<markvandenborre> Jo no parlo catalÃ , perÃ² pot utilitzar translate.google.com, i ho faig feliÃ§ a un candidat com vostÃ¨
<josepgallart> per la meva situacio personal, greu minusvalia que em fa mourem amb cadirta de rodes aixo em don tot el temps del mon
<papapep> he works mainly spreading ubuntu and foss
<papapep> giving courses, talks and similar
<papapep> in his home town, and all around villages
<josepgallart> porto organitzant xerrades i cursets per tot el territori sempre que puc o mo demanen
<papapep> he's really good at that
<papapep> he reaches to people through mixing, i.e. gastronomy and ubuntu :)
<josepgallart> ames a nivell local estic implicant altres gens per fer difusio
<papapep> every now and then he organizes "breakfast and free software"
<josepgallart> sempre colavoro em el equip local en el apartat de instalacions
<papapep> and he's gathering people in his town to help him in this work
<papapep> also, he always gives a hand in the install parties
<rafael_carreras> and in eevery LoCo activity manages installations
<papapep> he has a really intensive activity
<josepgallart> be no ser que mes explicar pero cualsevol dubte
<papapep> he is constantly doing things
<josepgallart> aqui estic
<papapep> if you need to know something else, he'll answer
<forumsmatthew> While it is a bit difficult to gauge with the language barrier and the lack of pictures, the testimonials are good and I'm feeling positive
<popey> agreed forumsmatthew
<popey> I am happy based on that to +1
<forumsmatthew> I understand the earlier hesitation, but I'm going to +1
<josepgallart> un tema interesant es que amb colavoracio amb una entitat estem preparant una aula ubuntu
<papapep> josepgallart: nano, t'han aprovat!
<papapep> josepgallart: no encara, perdÃ³
<Seveas> hesitating
<josepgallart> un espai de intercanvi de coneixaments
<Seveas> +0
<popey> ok, markvandenborre / phanatic ?
<Seveas> markvandenborre, phanatic ?
<rafael_carreras> now he a
<markvandenborre> +1
<frandieguez> enhorabuena josepgallart !!
<papapep> is he in?
<phanatic> +1, he's doing great work
<Seveas> ok, he's in :)
<popey> thats 4+, yes, hes in
<forumsmatthew> Congratulations!
<markvandenborre> I have a very good feeling about this
<Seveas> congratulations!
<popey> congratulations!
<papapep> wow!
<rafael_carreras> cheers josepgallart
<fmolinero> congratulations!
<papapep> josepgallart: enhorabona!!
<phanatic> congratulations
<josepgallart> gracies a tots
<popey> :)
<papapep> thanks to everybody
<popey> I love this community :)
<josepgallart> la feina nomes a comenÃ§at
<papapep> popey: yep, so do I ;)
<Seveas> popey, yeah. The only language that matters is the language of FOSS. Other barriers can be taken :)
<forumsmatthew> :)
<Seveas> Bodsda, you're up next
<Bodsda> Hello. My name is Bod. I live in the UK. I have been using Ubuntu as my primary operating system since Hardy, although I had gutsy installed for a while. I spend a lot of my time helping the Ubuntu beginners team and the development focus group. I also spend time in #ubuntu helping out. I am a service desk analyst by day and a hobbyist programmer and Linux enthusiast by night
<forestpiskie> woot for Bodsda :D
<Bodsda> My wiki page is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bodsda
<Bodsda> :) hey piskie
<Silver_Fox_> \o/ Bodsda =]
<popey> nice testimonials there Bodsda
<phanatic> indeed
<popey> Bodsda: what kind of coding competitions do you run?
<Bodsda> popey: I resurrected the Beginner programming challenges on the forums
<Seveas> Bodsda, can you please link to your forum profile?
<Bodsda> Seveas: http://ubuntuforums.org/member.php?u=448461
<popey> Bodsda: what kinds of challenges? What languages, how long do the challenges last?
<Bodsda> popey: Any language. Roughly a week. Someone (me to begin with) picks a challenge that beginner programmers can do, they then submit their programs and the Winner of the last challenge (or me) judges the entries and picks a winner, who then starts the next challenge
<popey> excellent, sounds like fun :)
<MTecknology> Bodsda: I'm just curious; what do you feel you've learn and accomplished in the field of MOTU?
<forumsmatthew> I wanted to wait and give others a chance to comment first...I've been watching Bodsda and been pleased with what he has been doing in the forums
<Bodsda> MTecknology: I am currently working my way through the (extensive) packaging guide. I am aware of a few broken packages which I want to help submit fixed packages for. I also would like to build a package for an open source Ducgeon Keeper spin off game that I am involved with
<popey> as you know I dont frequent the forums so I rely on others for that info forumsmatthew :)
<forumsmatthew> :)
<Bodsda> thanks forumsmatthew :)
<Seveas> me too, that comment definitely helped
<forumsmatthew> I'm +1
<popey> based on great testimonials I'm +1
<Seveas> +1 as well
<jarlen> I'd like to cheer for the open source Dungeon Keeper spin-off, that sounds awesome :P
<Bodsda> jarlen: yeah! It will be!
<Bodsda> some of the models are fantastic, especially the demon
<popey> ok, markvandenborre / phanatic ?
<phanatic> +1
<markvandenborre> +1
<Seveas> That's +5, welcome aboard!
<forumsmatthew> congratulations!
<Bodsda> Wow. Thank you so much guys!
<forestpiskie> yay - congrats Bodsda
<popey> yay
<Silver_Fox_> Well done Bodsda =]
<Bodsda> I really appreciate it. Thanks everyone
<frandieguez> congrats Bodsda !!
<Seveas> kjoller, you're up
<popey> Bodsda: drop me a link to the competitions when you get a moment, I'd like to take a look :)
<kjoller> Hi. My name is Niels KjÃ¸ller Hansen (sorry to all using a non-UTF charset). I am from Denmark, and have been using Ubuntu since Warty, and was involving in starting the LoCoTeam.
<Seveas> yeah, me too. I like a challenge
<kjoller> wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NielsKjÃ¸llerHansen
<kjoller> Other than just enjoying the community, I do various organising and booth-manning, as well as some administrative tasks. I also co-host the newly started Danish Ubuntu Podcast (three episodes and counting).
<kjoller> Also, I didn't realise having a beard counted in my favour, but mine is pretty nice - in a unkempt sorta way :)
<kjoller> I am currently making a mugshot
<Bodsda> popey: I'll send you the link to challenge 1 :)
<popey> thanks Bodsda
<Seveas> +1, testimonials from the SÃ¸rens
<jarlen> I'm cheering for Kjoller and the great work his doing for the danish LoCo, and his work in our Ubuntu-dk podcast. But I couldn't login to the wiki to write as well
<phanatic> very nice wikipage, good testimonials, great work! +1
<forumsmatthew> Seveas, that's what I thought... +1
<markvandenborre> +1
<Seveas> (also excellent work of course, but those testimonials make it really easy)
 * sbc cheers for Niels as well
<popey> easy +1
<Bodsda> popey: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1097136
<Seveas> ok, I think that was a record for approval speed
<popey> sorry for being the slow one
<popey> :)
<kjoller> whoohoo!
<Seveas> frandieguez, you're up. Try and beat kjoller :)
<popey> lol
<soren> Yeah, kjoller is a rock star :)
<frandieguez> Hi everyboby my name is Fran DiÃ©guez from Spain. I'm a software engineer working at a large educational institution at Galicia (Spain) deploying open source solutions http://www.usc.es/osl based on Ubuntu distribution. Co-coordinator of the Ubuntu Galician Localization Team, focused on translate the Ubuntu OS to Galician language.
<frandieguez> I'm also active on http://www.glug.es/ (Galician GNU/Linux User Group). On this group we try to talk to all the society the vantages of Open Source, making courses, lectures at University among other events related with Open Source. At our website you can find a lot of mini howtos based on Ubuntu OS.
<frandieguez> Finally I translate GNOME desktop to galician language with just another active person and currently we are translating documentation.
<Seveas> -0. Wikipage, activity and karma definitely look good, but I cannot judge the contributions properly due to the language so I would like to see some testimonials
<forumsmatthew> Wow. the complete lack of testimonials makes this difficult for me
<frandieguez> Yes, one my work I don't have a lot of persons
<Seveas> frandieguez, surely there are more people in glug and the galician locoteam?
<forumsmatthew> I have to -0 with Seveas for now
<frandieguez> yes
<mbouzada> I'm not from ubuntu member but I have been working with ffrandieguez and his work and translations are incredible valuate!
<popey> if you can get some testimonials that would make it a lot easier
<frandieguez> I think mbouzada have something to say
<Seveas> then let him say so on your wikipage :)
<Seveas> also, testimonials is plural, more than one is definitely appreciated
<markvandenborre> +0
<frandieguez> ok i'll try to collect more testimonials
<popey> yeah, I'm +0 for now, it's clear youd doing good work, but we need to see some confirmation
<Seveas> ok frandieguez, then we'll hopefully see you again soon!
<popey> please do keep up the great work and come back at the next meeting with a fuller wiki page
<phanatic> hope to see you next month with testimonials (+0)
<Seveas> A4Tech, you're up
<A4Tech> Hi, My name is Dmitry, I'm from Russia, Saint Peterburg. At the moment I am a student. Using ubuntu since the release of 7.10. On my laptop. There are currently installed 9.10. I am a member of Russian LoCo team, and responsible for support and IRC.
<A4Tech> This includes user support, knowledge base to date. Was translated into the whole base ubottu. And of course work as the operator of the channel. Just now learning PyGTK that would write the applications that I miss in ubuntu :)
<Seveas> Lack of activity details on the wiki, no testimonials... thinking of -1 due to bad preparation.
<markvandenborre> -1, same reasons
<forumsmatthew> -1
<popey> +1 also.
<forumsmatthew> popey, ??
<popey> er
<popey> -1
<forumsmatthew> :)
<popey> oops
<markvandenborre> please do come back when you've documented your efforts better
<markvandenborre> !
<A4Tech> ok, thx :)
<forumsmatthew> A4Tech, I think you have promise, but you need to document better and get some people to testify on your behald
<forumsmatthew> behalf
<Agafonov> I'm Ru LoCo coordinator, A4Tech making valueble contibution
<popey> Agafonov: put it on his wiki page :)
<Seveas> Agafonov, then please do write a (slightly more detailed) testimonial on his wikipage
<forumsmatthew> agreed
<markvandenborre> try to be more specific about what you have done
<Seveas> FFEMTcJ, you're up next
<FFEMTcJ> Hello all
<FFEMTcJ> My name is Chris Johnston. I'm from Florida. I am a FireFighter / Paramedic offline (I'm actually on duty right now, so I hope I don't have to leave). I have been using Ubuntu for 3 years full time.
<markvandenborre> a picture of a meeting you helped prepare for example
<FFEMTcJ> I started out managing an Ubuntu server for my websites, and then very quickly began using it as a desktop. I have been running my website (http://chrisjohnston.org) for a year writing Ubuntu tutorials for both server and desktop users.
<Seveas> same comments here, lack of activity details on the wiki, no testimonials... -1 due to bad preparation.
<forumsmatthew> ditto
<forumsmatthew> -1 for now
<phanatic> i agree
<markvandenborre> -1, same reasons
<FFEMTcJ> Thanks for your time
<Seveas> please do prepare before coming to these meetings. We have a few minutes to gauge your activity. Make this easy for us and we'll make it easy for you :)
<forumsmatthew> heikki proved that...
<markvandenborre> as an aside, you might want to look at central documentation
<Seveas> aim1159, you're up
<markvandenborre> on the ubuntu wiki
<aim1159> OK. I guess u'd give me -1 but i'll have a try...
<markvandenborre> and try to improve that
<aim1159> so Hello!
<aim1159> My name is Andrey Mavlyanov. I live in Saint Petersburg, Russia. I do linux community work in my city for near 8 years and besides that i'm doing ubuntu promotion in my region by organising the LoCo. As my primary job I do linux and unix sysadmining in a forex trading company.
<forumsmatthew> Again, I like what I see, but I need/want a little more
<aim1159> Most of my activities described on the wiki page. besides the help for some goverment organisations to move some parts of the systems to linux (of cause ubuntu and debian)
<Seveas> aim1159, well, to be honest your wikipage is better already, but indeed some testimonials are needed as (i believe) none of us speak russian and can 'check' your contributions. -0
<forumsmatthew> Please get some testimonials and fill out the description of your work
<popey> agreed
<forumsmatthew> Please, please, please come back then
<forumsmatthew> -0 for now
<markvandenborre> aim1159: if English is a problem for you or your comrades
<markvandenborre> you might want to use a translation engine
<aim1159> For me english is not a problem.
<markvandenborre> (just making sure that this wouldn't be the hurdle!)
<forumsmatthew> I think each of you show promise and I hope to see you again soon, but a little better prepared
<markvandenborre> (en is not my native language either)
<aim1159> but for a work part - most of this can't be made public. that's why it was not included
<oronl> go ddorda , pick ddorda he's the best for you!!!
<Seveas> aim1159, all that matters is public contributions to ubuntu and its community. What you do at work stays at work :)
<Seveas> last candidate for today is Ddorda. And we have one enthousiastic cheerleader already i see :)
<Ddorda> hey! I'm currently one of the most active LoCo members in Israel. I've been writing a blog to help new users. I also created our new LoCo website. While I was working on this, I became a developer for the Ubuntu-Drupal project which is used by many other LoCo's. I've also been working hard on translations for Ubuntu.
<Seveas> Ddorda, btw, you're lying :P
<oronl> yay!!!! ddorda!!!
<Ddorda> The guides I wrote can be seen here: http://ddorda.useopensource.net/category/guides, Our LoCo website - (Old: http://ubuntu-il.com/forums/ New: http://ubuntu-il.com/site/), My translations: https://translations.edge.launchpad.net/~ddorda/+activity.
<Seveas> # more than 6500 total Karma. <-- launchpad says 6000
<Seveas> nonetheless: impressive!
<Ddorda> I'm lying?
<MTecknology> Seveas: karma drops ;)
<oronl> hews not lying !!!
<Ddorda> well, it was 6500 when I wrote it
<elidaian> He is not lying
<forumsmatthew> Seveas is teasing you
<popey> heh
 * popey remembers the day he had more karma than anyone...
<popey> those were the days
<MTecknology> I remember having over 70k karma; then they changed it
<phanatic> +1, good work and testimonials
 * forumsmatthew doesn't think he has ever had more karma than anyone
<MTecknology> popey: they were
<Seveas> I once had millions of karma. Now I'm close to 0
<oronl> pick ddorda!!!
<popey> yeah, a great +1
<Seveas> weird karma algorithms :)
<Seveas> +1
<forumsmatthew> I'm +1, there was never any question once I saw the wiki page
<elidaian> he is one of the best guides in ubuntu israel
<Seveas> forumsmatthew, agreed. Very good contributions
<Ddorda> forumsmatthew: thanks
<Seveas> markvandenborre, ?
<markvandenborre> +1
<Ddorda> :)
<forumsmatthew> congratulations!
<FFEMTcJ> Well.. as I said I am a firefighter, and we just got an alarm, so I must go..
<Seveas> clickety-click and launchpad agrees
<Seveas> welcome aboard Ddorda!
<Ddorda> yay, thanks :D
<popey> FFEMTcJ: take care
<popey> right, we had one more to go back to..
<elidaian> That is an excellent choise!
<oronl> i use ddorda blog and websites allmost everyday and hes doing the best he can do for ubuntu !!
<popey> fmolinero:
<fmolinero> Hello
<Seveas> popey, wasn't that josepgallart?
<Seveas> ah no, fmolinero
<josepgallart> si?
<popey> lol
<popey> no, it was fmolinero
<fmolinero> Ok
<popey> fmolinero: have you found some people to "cheer" for you?
<fmolinero> I have not suport for me
<popey> if not, don't worry, come back when you have found some
<fmolinero> sorry, and thank you for yopur time
<popey> at the next meeting perhaps?
<forumsmatthew> Yes, please do come back. Everything else looks great
<popey> no problem
<Seveas> fmolinero, please let people write on your wikipage and come to the next meeting. Approval will be a mere formality then :)
<fmolinero> sure
 * markvandenborre needs to go!
<popey> thanks everyone
<markvandenborre> bye everyone
<Seveas> end of meeting!
<markvandenborre> congratulations to the new members!
<popey> nice of you to drop in markvandenborre ;)
<Seveas> bye all, I'm back to fighting git
<forumsmatthew> bye, all!
<Ddorda> cya, and thanks
<phanatic> thanks, and good night everyone
<markvandenborre> popey: I am 100% niceness!
<markvandenborre> :)
<popey> you are
<Seveas> markvandenborre, 98%
<Seveas> you snore!
 * rhkfin like the way the board works
<rhkfin> thanks everyone
<markvandenborre> thank you rhkfin, and byeÃ¨
<papapep> godd night to everyone, and keep up whith the good job!
<heikki> thanks for the membership status! and bye
<kjoller> yes have a good night
 * kjoller waves his record trophy
<aim1159> have a good day/night everyone!
<ulysses__> greetings
<bodhi_zazen> FC meeting ?
<bodhi_zazen> Ah, Thursday, not Tuesday, lol
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-11-04
<bodhi_zazen> people ready for the BT meeting ?
<nhandler> Yep
<sblunix> aye
<Silver-Fox-> Yes.
<bodhi_zazen> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 18:00. The chair is bodhi_zazen.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<bodhi_zazen> Ah, perfect timing =)
<bodhi_zazen> [LINK]https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/Meetings
<MootBot> LINK received: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/Meetings
<bodhi_zazen> Agenda # 1 Forums ?
<bodhi_zazen> Bodsda: you here
<sblunix> Forums sounds acceptable
<bodhi_zazen> Alrighty then ...
<ZachK_> meeting?
<sblunix> Yes
<bodhi_zazen> Bodsda approached me about the possibility for a team forums a few weeks ago
<ZachK_> bodhi_zazen: ok
<starcraftman> I r here, just munching pizza.
<ZachK_> bodhi_zazen: is that a topic?
<sblunix> bodhi_zazen, mmhhmmm
<bodhi_zazen> as it so happened I was testing forums software anyways, so I set up a few test servers, which I think a few of you all looked at
<sblunix> Weren't you having troubles?
<bodhi_zazen> so, the question is, does the team wish to use a forums ?
<sblunix> I vote yes.
<ZachK_> save sblunix for last....yes FORUMS!!!!!!!!!!!!
<sblunix> ZachK_, say what?
<Silver-Fox-> I ask for what purpose.  Is it to replace the wiki?
<bodhi_zazen> No real purpose =)
<bodhi_zazen> The point would be:
<sblunix> Silver-Fox-, The Wiki is more of an informational place. The forums would be a more solid communicational place other than IRC.
<bodhi_zazen> 1. some people can learn sys admin as I will teach them
<bodhi_zazen> 2. Would it improve communication ? Not everyone seems to prefer the mailing list(s)
<sblunix> I believe it would, I prefer forums much over mailing lists...
<bodhi_zazen> and a forums keeps topics / conversations nice and neat
<Joeb454> I don't think I'd use it, personally
<nhandler> Do we really need an entire forum for the team? We already have a section on ubuntuforums.org
<Joeb454> I remember when we had the team forum on UF, that never really got used a whole lot
<bodhi_zazen> +1 Joeb454
<Silver-Fox-> Nobody uses the team group on ubuntuforums.org ,  will this be any different ?
 * sblunix did not know about the team group on ubuntuforums.org
<nhandler> I personally think we should make use of the mailing list and IRC channels instead of a separate forum
<drs305> +1
<Silver-Fox-> +1
<PabloRubianes> +1
<bodhi_zazen> do you all want to vote on this ?
<sblunix> It doesn't seem many people use the mailing list either though, unless I'm just not part of it...
<bodhi_zazen> or table the discussion ?
<sblunix> table the discussion?
<bodhi_zazen> no, mailing list is quiet
<sblunix> bodhi_zazen, probably because I fail at mailing lists and don't know how to use them...
<bodhi_zazen> table meaning, no forms , the end =)
<nhandler> bodhi_zazen: Let's vote on this so we can have a clear decision.
<bodhi_zazen> [VOTE] BT forums ?
<MootBot> Please vote on:  BT forums ?.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<nhandler> -1
<MootBot> -1 received from nhandler. 0 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -1
<Joeb454> -1
<PabloRubianes> -1
<MootBot> -1 received from Joeb454. 0 for, 2 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -2
<MootBot> -1 received from PabloRubianes. 0 for, 3 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -3
<sblunix> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from sblunix. 1 for, 3 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -2
<bodhi_zazen> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from bodhi_zazen. 1 for, 3 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now -2
<Silver-Fox-> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from Silver-Fox-. 1 for, 3 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now -2
<drs305> -1
<MootBot> -1 received from drs305. 1 for, 4 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now -3
<starcraftman> I am neutral on this, I just don't see a real need.
<starcraftman> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from starcraftman. 1 for, 4 against. 3 have abstained. Count is now -3
<Buuntu1> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from Buuntu1. 2 for, 4 against. 3 have abstained. Count is now -2
<bodhi_zazen> Any additional votes ?
<bodhi_zazen> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 2 for, 4 against. 3 abstained. Total: -2
<sblunix> Oh well, idea tabled...
<sblunix> 2nd order of business?
<bodhi_zazen> Bodsda: is not here
<bodhi_zazen> [TOPIC] -offtopic channel ?
<MootBot> New Topic:  -offtopic channel ?
<bodhi_zazen> is our whole channel not off topic ???
<Joeb454> who suggested the channel?
<Silver-Fox-> I don't understand the need for another off topic channel.
<bodhi_zazen> anyone want to discuss this agenda item >
<Joeb454> I think the current channel is fine
<bodhi_zazen> I woudl say -1 , I think we have enough channels
<sblunix> I thought #ubuntu-beginners-help was the channel to help beginners, and #ubuntu-beginners was the team's off-topic/communication channel
<Silver-Fox-> +1 Joeb454
<sblunix> +1 Joeb454 bodhi_zazen
<PabloRubianes> +1
<Buuntu1> bodhi_zazen, I agree, #ubuntu-beginners is already pretty off-topic, I don't see the need for a whole separate channel
<bodhi_zazen> [VOTE] Add another channel ???
<Joeb454> I think the current channel serves well as a general "chat" channel
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Add another channel ???.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<bodhi_zazen> -1
<MootBot> -1 received from bodhi_zazen. 0 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -1
<sblunix> -1
<Joeb454> -1
<MootBot> -1 received from Joeb454. 0 for, 2 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -2
<Silver-Fox-> -1
<Buuntu1> -1
<MootBot> -1 received from sblunix. 0 for, 3 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -3
<nhandler> -1
<starcraftman> I dunno, was the point to make ubuntu-beginners into more serious support channel, scrap help and make new "hang out " channel.
<MootBot> -1 received from Silver-Fox-. 0 for, 4 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -4
<MootBot> -1 received from Buuntu1. 0 for, 5 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -5
<PabloRubianes> -1
<MootBot> -1 received from nhandler. 0 for, 6 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -6
<MootBot> -1 received from PabloRubianes. 0 for, 7 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -7
<starcraftman> Just saying.
<bodhi_zazen> Any additional votes ?
<bodhi_zazen> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 0 for, 7 against. 0 abstained. Total: -7
<sblunix> Well, I think we should just emphasize #ubuntu-beginners-help as a help channel, and keep #ubuntu-beginners as our team channel
<starcraftman> Also, don't go so fast, I'm munching food here, takes my hands to eat.
<bodhi_zazen> Saj0577 is not here ...
<bodhi_zazen> [TOPIC] Unified Newsletter (email) idea for the FGs.
<MootBot> New Topic:  Unified Newsletter (email) idea for the FGs.
<Buuntu1> ubuntu-beginners-help has been pretty inactive recently
<bodhi_zazen> starcraftman: poke =)
<Silver-Fox-> Put the piza down starcraftman =]
<starcraftman> bodhi_zazen, darn it I said slower!
<sblunix> Newsletters for the Focus Groups?
<ZachK_> +1
<sblunix> Who would take the time to write them? Focus Group Heads?
<stlsaint> sblunix: psst psst, we dont vote yet!! :D
<bodhi_zazen> Shall we go to rocket and come back to you starcraftman ?
<starcraftman> THe idea originally occured to me during the wiki fg meeting last week. Was just an idea to help promote events related to fgs. i.e. for wiki group to promote certain pages or maybe some sort of wiki related thing.
<sblunix> stlsaint: psst, whoops, meh, I don't think anyone minds, my ideas are as good as anyones, I'm sure the team wouldn't mind my feedback
<starcraftman> bodhi_zazen, nar, I'm noming in between typing.
<ZachK_> sblunix: slow down buddy....
<nhandler> One suggestion I had about this was that instead of having a separate newsletter, FGs could simply add news to the BT team report. That way, the team and the entire Ubuntu community would be able to see it
<bodhi_zazen> How about if we roll the news letter idea into a team reports ?
<sblunix> +1
<bodhi_zazen> what nhandler said
<Rocket2DMn> bodhi_zazen, please proceed, ill be back in a min
<starcraftman> bodhi_zazen, sounds acceptable, I didn't really have a super strong opinion. Was just an idea.
<starcraftman> Rocket2DMn, make it fast min, your up next and we moving at light speed.
<ZachK_> sounds like an excellent idea...
<bodhi_zazen> It is a good idea, I think beefing up the monthly report would suffice =)
<sblunix> I think that adding FG sections to the BT is a super-great idea :)
<nhandler> I would be glad to help any FG leader add their news to the Team Report if they want.
<bodhi_zazen> nhandler: you ready ?
<nhandler> Sure
<bodhi_zazen> [TOPIC] Require Padawans to subscribe to mailing list
<MootBot> New Topic:  Require Padawans to subscribe to mailing list
<bodhi_zazen> can we require this ?
<bodhi_zazen> or strongly suggest =)
<sblunix> Well, are all members subscribed?
<ZachK_> bodhi_zazen: strongly suggest
<nhandler> As most of you know, we are currently moving from lists.launchpad.net to lists.ubuntu.com
<starcraftman> I added it to the join us page, so it is maditory.
<sblunix> I mean, as a Padawan I subscribed to the mailing lists...
<Silver-Fox-> This is about non members sblunix,  the Padawan
<nhandler> lists.ubuntu.com has the benefit of allowing any user to subscribe to the mailing list, something LP did not allow
<ZachK_> If i may speak?
<starcraftman> I took care to note list is for members and nonmembers.
<nhandler> All BT members should be subscribed to the mailing list, and I will be hunting any non-subscribers down over the next few weeks ;)
<sblunix> Silver-Fox-, Well, I'm saying that if non-members are required to subscribe to the mailing list, why are members allowed to choose if they will or won't subscribe to the mailing list?
<nhandler> I would like to propose that as part of the new member process, masters ensure that their padawans subscribe to the mailing list.
<ZachK_> +1 nhandler
<nhandler> sblunix: All members should be subscribed.
<PabloRubianes> +1
<sblunix> +1 nhandler
<sblunix> nhandler, Well, that was my question.
<nhandler> I will be taking care of getting all members subscribed. It will just take some time
<starcraftman> sblunix, why would people choose not to be on list, not like the list used to spy on people.
<sblunix> starcraftman, That's not the point, I was asking if All members were required to subscribe... maybe some ppl just aren't cool...
<nhandler> [LINK] https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-beginners
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-beginners
<nhandler> You can subscribe to the mailing list at the link above
<sblunix> so...
<bodhi_zazen> I am very neutral on this topic, the mailing list is not very active and
 * bodhi_zazen hates requirements =)
<starcraftman> sblunix, Well I assumed new mail list subscription was completely manditory, I put it on the paddy join page. Simple enough to do. And who's not cool that uses linux, HUH?
<ZachK_> +1 starcraftman
<sblunix> +1
<ZachK_> ok...next topic?
<Joeb454> I think it would be nice if the padawans were on the list, so I'd say encourage padawans, and require members :)
<bodhi_zazen> +1 Joeb454
<sblunix> +1 Joeb454
<dvz-> bodhi_zazen: i agree with bodhi_zazen ...if it's not very active...are we trying to bring forth more "clutter" of things because we think they _may_ be used?
<nhandler> Joeb454: I think Padawans should be required to subscribe by the time they are nominated for membership
<dvz-> and in which case, who does the work ultimately end up falling upon when we deem it "necessary" or "implement it"?
<ZachK_> +1 Joeb454 and bodhi_zazen
<starcraftman> I just wish list was a bit more active, you have point bodhi_zazen . Does feel too quiet. Like calm before an alien invasion.
<sblunix> dvz-, I *will* use them, I mean... Since the forums are tabled, mailing lists will be a big part of how I communicate to the BT
<Joeb454> nhandler: that sounds reasonable :)
<bodhi_zazen> LOL starcraftman
<sblunix> starcraftman, the alien invasion is soon
<nhandler> And the list does have activity. People really should use it more for agenda item discussions
<Joeb454> starcraftman: start an email then
<ZachK_> I would use the list...i'm just unsure how to...
<Joeb454> I've recently changed my list subscriptions to gmail so I can reply from my phone when I'm out :)
<starcraftman> Joeb454, egad! Brilliant!
<sblunix> ZachK_: same issue here, do I just send an e-mail to some sort of e-mail address?
<Silver-Fox-> Correct
<ZachK_> sblunix: i don't know....ask
<sblunix> What's the beginners team mailing list e-mail address?
<bodhi_zazen> [VOTE] mailing list - encourage padawan require members =)
<MootBot> Please vote on:  mailing list - encourage padawan require members =).
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<nhandler> ZachK_ and sblunix: You simply send a message to ubuntu-beginners@lists.ubuntu.com
<Silver-Fox-> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from Silver-Fox-. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<bodhi_zazen> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from bodhi_zazen. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<Rocket2DMn> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from Rocket2DMn. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<Joeb454> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from Joeb454. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<PabloRubianes> +1
<dvz-> 0
<MootBot> +1 received from PabloRubianes. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
<starcraftman> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from starcraftman. 6 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 6
<MootBot> Private +1 vote received. 7 for, 0 against, 0 have abstained. Count is now 7
<ZachK_> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from ZachK_. 8 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 8
<nhandler> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from nhandler. 9 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 9
<dvz-> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from dvz-. 9 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 9
<bodhi_zazen> Any additional votes ?
<bodhi_zazen> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 9 for, 0 against. 1 abstained. Total: 9
<Joeb454> sblunix: ubuntu-beginners@lists.ubuntu.com is the address I believe
<nhandler> Although I do think it would be easier to shift the requirement to being subscribed by the time you are nominated for membership ;)
<bodhi_zazen> Rocket2DMn: your up =)
<nhandler> Correct Joeb454
<starcraftman> sblunix, and ZachK_ , please see the link nhandler provided up top. To use the list ya first get added, then send to > ubuntu-beginners@lists.ubuntu.com.  The list is open, so ya can send even without being subscirbed but then ya wouldn't get anything back.
<Rocket2DMn> cool, sorry I'm late guys, I just walked in the door
<Joeb454> nhandler: we can leave that down to the masters :)
<starcraftman> Rocket2DMn, Your just on time, as always. Except I didn't say your name this time.
<sblunix> starcraftman: I've already added myself
<ZachK_> starcraftman: sent in request
<nhandler> starcraftman: If you are not subscribed, I need to moderate the message firs t;)
<Rocket2DMn> I just wanted to let the team know that starcraftman is now in charge of the Wiki FG, I stepped down a few weeks ago.
<starcraftman> sblunix, k then, just send to that link.
<bodhi_zazen> [TOPIC]Wiki FG leadership transfer
<MootBot> New Topic: Wiki FG leadership transfer
<Silver-Fox-> All hail starcraftman
<stlsaint> W00T Silver-Fox-
<Rocket2DMn> Group members approved of starcraftman for leadership, so he's the go-to guy now :)
<bodhi_zazen> Rocket2DMn: =0
<stlsaint> oopps W00T starcraftman
 * starcraftman dons his space suit crown.
<ZachK_> +1 FOR STARCRAFTMAN!!!!!!!!!!!!
<bodhi_zazen> w00t starcraftman =)
 * starcraftman waves to wiki subjects.
<Rocket2DMn> Of course, I'll still be around and participating, I wanted to give somebody else a chance and hopefully free up some more time for myself
<bodhi_zazen> thank you Rocket2DMn for your previous work
<ZachK_> where is Saj0577?
<bodhi_zazen> your time and energy is greatly appreciated
<starcraftman> ZachK_, Zergs got him clearly.
<Joeb454> +1 bodhi_zazen - the summer of documentation was always good
<Rocket2DMn> Sure thing, and btw, starcraftman is also on the ubuntu-doc-wiki-admins team now, too
<ZachK_> starcraftman: evidently
<Silver-Fox-> I really enjoyed the Summer.
<Rocket2DMn> so congrats to starcraftman :)
<nhandler> o/
 * sblunix applauds
<starcraftman> Yup. Anyone need admining I can help, though still not used my power much.
<bodhi_zazen> w00t - another step in BT world domination ?
<Rocket2DMn> lol thank you thank you, i accept donations ...
<starcraftman> Can't be tempted.....
<Rocket2DMn> no j/k, go ahead nhandler
<sblunix> next topic?
<starcraftman> bodhi_zazen, I can't comment one way or the other on that question.
<nhandler> I just want to mention that duanedesign has also taken over the LP FG
<bodhi_zazen> Next topic will be --- New Members ---
<ZachK_> I believe the next topic is new members
<Silver-Fox-> Hey,  I think I have been missed
<ZachK_> [New Members]
<Rocket2DMn> man you werent kidding when you said we're flying
<Silver-Fox-> I have an item
<bodhi_zazen> [TOPIC]New Members
<MootBot> New Topic: New Members
 * sblunix believes Silver-Fox- has an item
<bodhi_zazen> Silver-Fox-: after new members ?
<Silver-Fox-> No
<ZachK_> bodhi_zazen: Silver-Fox- its before
<bodhi_zazen> ok, if you instist
<Silver-Fox-> Before. No matter though
<starcraftman> Hehe
<Silver-Fox-> No,  carry on
<Silver-Fox-> =]
<bodhi_zazen> >_<
<starcraftman> hahaha
<sblunix> .....
 * ZachK_ chuckles
<bodhi_zazen> lets See ....
 * sblunix ...
<bodhi_zazen> stlsaint: poke =)
<stlsaint> ohai
<bodhi_zazen> who's your master ?
<bodhi_zazen> lol
<stlsaint> lol
<dvz-> lol
<bodhi_zazen> stlsaint: has gone the dark path =)
<starcraftman> What? Someone talking? Who's that over there.
<Silver-Fox-> Interesting...
<ZachK_> stlsaint: is think it's his time to join us....
<stlsaint> starcraftman: :P
<ZachK_> stlsaint: CHOOSE THE SITH!!!!!
 * sblunix is slightly worried
<dvz-> choose the red pill...
<bodhi_zazen> stlsaint: is a fast learner and about as geeky as they come
<dvz-> or the blue pill.
<stlsaint> bodhi_zazen: :D
<Silver-Fox-> Hmm rasberry
<bodhi_zazen> stlsaint: tell the rest of the team a little about yourself, wiki page ?
<bgs100> dvz-, The purple pill! /me finds xkcd comic link
<nhandler> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/stlsaint
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/stlsaint
<stlsaint> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/stlsaint
<stlsaint> hi team
<ZachK_> stlsaint: welcome...hehehe
<sblunix> stlsaint, Quick Question:
<sblunix> What does the "stl" in your name stand for?
<stlsaint> i started using ubunt this year, found my way to UA then BT and been a paddy for about hmm,, few months, (Senior Paddy!!)
<duanedesign> i think stlsaint is a dedicated contributer to the team and community at large. He will make a fine represenative of our team
<stlsaint> sblunix: Saint Louis
<ZachK_> +1 to duanedesign
<PabloRubianes> and he is a crazy nice guy!
<stlsaint> PabloRubianes: duanedesign thx fellas
<bodhi_zazen> [VOTE] stlsaint for membership ?
<MootBot> Please vote on:  stlsaint for membership ?.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<sblunix> stlsaint, I live in Saint Louis also
<bodhi_zazen> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from bodhi_zazen. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<nhandler> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from nhandler. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<starcraftman> stlsaint, The only question that matters -in deciding my vote - is if I and bodhi were in a fight to the death, who's side would ya be on? :p
<Silver-Fox-> +1
<PabloRubianes> +1
<bgs100> +!
<MootBot> +1 received from PabloRubianes. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<MootBot> +1 received from Silver-Fox-. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<dvz-> +1
<ZachK_> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from dvz-. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
<MootBot> +1 received from ZachK_. 6 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 6
<bgs100> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from bgs100. 7 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 7
<bgs100> Whoops
<duanedesign> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from duanedesign. 8 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 8
<starcraftman> Darn, my timing off. Too much eating I guess.
<Rocket2DMn> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from Rocket2DMn. 9 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 9
<bodhi_zazen> any additional votes ?
<starcraftman> +1
<dvz-> I think stlsaint has the drive and dedication to push himself and to expand his horizons...esp. in -dev
<MootBot> +1 received from starcraftman. 10 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 10
<bodhi_zazen> [ENDVOTE]
<sblunix> can I +1?
<MootBot> Final result is 10 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 10
<bodhi_zazen> w00t
<bodhi_zazen> welcome stlsaint
<ZachK_> sblunix: no
<duanedesign> \o/
<starcraftman> stlsaint, I'll pick up my bribe later :)
<nhandler> Congrats starcraftman
<bgs100> stlsaint, Congratulations!!!!
<nhandler> err stlsaint
<ZachK_> sblunix: you're not yet a team member
<PabloRubianes> congrats stlsaint!!!
<bodhi_zazen> tab fail
<drs305> +1
<stlsaint> :D
<ZachK_> tab fail nhandler?
<starcraftman> nhandler, oh nice.
<bgs100> stlsaint, Welcome to them team :D
<dvz-> grats stlsaint
<bodhi_zazen> [TOPIC] sblunix for membership
<MootBot> New Topic:  sblunix for membership
<ZachK_> I'm standing for talsemgeest
<bodhi_zazen> sblunix: he has a very geeky avatar =)
<stlsaint> bgs100: thanks
<stlsaint> thank you all
<ZachK_> welcome Finally stlsaint
<dvz-> geeky ava?  +1 automatically
<bodhi_zazen> sblunix: tell us about yourself, wiki page ?
<bgs100> You are very welcome :)
<sblunix> oh mon dieu
<sblunix> One second
<nhandler> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/sblunix
<ZachK_> [Link]mailto:ubuntu-beginners@lists.ubuntu.com
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/sblunix
<MootBot> LINK received: mailto:ubuntu-beginners@lists.ubuntu.com
<sblunix> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/sblunix
<ZachK_> dang...wrong one
<ZachK_> sblunix: tell us about yur self
<PabloRubianes> don't be shy
<sblunix> OK
<sblunix> Wells
<sblunix> I live in Saint Louis (apparently along with stlsaint
<sblunix> I've been a Linux fan since 2007 and an ubuntu fan for almost as long
<sblunix> I've been with Ubuntu since 8.04 and I never Realized that there was such a great community for ubuntu
<sblunix> I'm fluent in English, French, and Bulgarian as well as Python, Java, Javascript and C++
<ZachK_> sblunix: well nice to have you.....just don't let starcraftman corrupt you!
<ZachK_> kidding starcraftman =)
<bodhi_zazen> sblunix: is simply awesome with the gimp and will make us all look better =)
<starcraftman> ZachK_, I what? Corrupt? I'm the nice innocent Canadian!!!
<sblunix> I love to learn and I love to help others
<ZachK_> lol at starcraftman
<sblunix> oh yeah, and the logo on my wiki was made using GIMP! <3
 * sblunix loves GIMP
<dvz-> bodhi_zazen: i don't there there is any help for me in gimp...even with sblunix's expertise.
<bodhi_zazen> [VOTE] sblunix for membership ?!?
<MootBot> Please vote on:  sblunix for membership ?!?.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<bodhi_zazen> +2
<Silver-Fox-> +1
<nhandler> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from Silver-Fox-. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<MootBot> +1 received from nhandler. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<bodhi_zazen> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from bodhi_zazen. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<bodhi_zazen> lol
<bgs100> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from bgs100. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<ZachK_> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from ZachK_. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
<Rocket2DMn> +1
<Joeb454> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from Joeb454. 6 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 6
<starcraftman> sblunix, awesome, I need to play more with GIMP, kinda dropped off since been back at uni.
<sblunix> I <3 +1s
<MootBot> +1 received from Rocket2DMn. 7 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 7
<dvz-> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from dvz-. 8 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 8
<dvz-> -1
<starcraftman> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from starcraftman. 9 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 9
<bgs100> sblunix, :)
<sblunix> :(
<ZachK_> +1
<dvz-> :-P
<Silver-Fox-> Hehe
<sblunix> :P
<bgs100> dvz-, *GASSPP*
 * sblunix faints
<dvz-> bgs100: what?
<bodhi_zazen> Any additional votes ?
<ZachK_> dvz-: what?
<bodhi_zazen> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 9 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 9
<bodhi_zazen> w00t welcome sblunix
<sblunix> ... so I guess there's always next time :
<Joeb454> 'grats
<sblunix> ... so I guess there's always next time :'(
<Silver-Fox-> well done
<ZachK_> WELL COME SBLUNIX!!!!!!!!!!!
<nhandler> Congrats sblunix
<sblunix> :( is happy as a clam
<sblunix> :)*
<bodhi_zazen> next MsA =)
<sblunix> (clams are happy right)
<bgs100> Lol
<dvz-> how happy is a clam in that contradiction?
<bgs100> sblunix, CONGRATS
<sblunix> bgs100 TYVM!
<starcraftman> bodhi_zazen, forest nor D seem about though.
<sblunix> also all TYVM
<sblunix> :D :D :D
<bodhi_zazen> [TOPIC] Ms-Angel for menbership ?
<MootBot> New Topic:  Ms-Angel for menbership ?
<Joeb454> I have to go, sorry. Night guys
<ZachK_> nope..no forest or ms-angel
<bgs100> It's a new member INVASSIIOONN
<Silver-Fox-> It is 00:41 AM in the UK
<bodhi_zazen> MsA, as she is known by the lazy typers, is simply awesome
<Joeb454> and for the record - I'd +1 MsAngel's membership
<bodhi_zazen> she is too shy to show up for the vote mind you
<ZachK_> same here
<Silver-Fox-> you are not likely to see forest at this ungodly hour
<Silver-Fox-> ;)
<ZachK_> +1
<starcraftman> Silver-Fox-, well... your on.
<dvz-> let's just +1 her and tell her she didn't get in?
<dvz-> then kid her and kick her with v
<Silver-Fox-> So,  I am always here starcraftman =]
<dvz-> :-P
<sblunix> ...
<bodhi_zazen> [LINK]https://wiki.ubuntu.com/mrsangeld
<MootBot> LINK received: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/mrsangeld
<bodhi_zazen> [VOTE] Ms_Angel_D for assimilation ?
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Ms_Angel_D for assimilation ?.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<Silver-Fox-> +1
<bodhi_zazen> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from Silver-Fox-. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<MootBot> +1 received from bodhi_zazen. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<nhandler> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from nhandler. 2 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 2
<ZachK_> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from ZachK_. 3 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 3
<starcraftman> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from starcraftman. 3 for, 0 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 3
<dvz-> +1
<sblunix> OMGeezles
<MootBot> +1 received from dvz-. 4 for, 0 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 4
<MootBot> Private -1 vote received. 4 for, 1 against, 2 have abstained. Count is now 3
<sblunix> I'm a member
<sblunix> I can vote
<PabloRubianes> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from PabloRubianes. 4 for, 1 against. 3 have abstained. Count is now 3
<Rocket2DMn> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from Rocket2DMn. 5 for, 1 against. 3 have abstained. Count is now 4
<ZachK_> yes sblunix
<sblunix> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from sblunix. 5 for, 1 against. 4 have abstained. Count is now 4
<bgs100> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from bgs100. 6 for, 1 against. 4 have abstained. Count is now 5
<bodhi_zazen> Any additional votes ?
<bodhi_zazen> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 6 for, 1 against. 4 abstained. Total: 5
<bodhi_zazen> any additional topics ?
<bodhi_zazen> congrats new members !!!
<ZachK_> shall i update bt meeting page?
<sblunix> Didn't Silver-Fox- have soemthing?
<Silver-Fox-> Me bodhi_zazen
<bodhi_zazen> please contact me so I may add you to the LP team
<nhandler> ZachK_: Rocket2DMn normally handles that
<starcraftman> I also got a few quick notes after silver
<nhandler> bodhi_zazen: I've added them already to the LP team
<ZachK_> Rocket2DMn:
<Rocket2DMn> ZachK_, please dont, we have to pull material off of it first
<bodhi_zazen> [TOPIC] What Silver-Fox- said
<MootBot> New Topic:  What Silver-Fox- said
<bodhi_zazen> thanks nhandler
 * sblunix is listening intently
<Rocket2DMn> ZachK_, if you want i'll let you update it when i get what i need, but i have to wait for logs to be uploaded first
<ZachK_> Rocket2DMn: k
<Silver-Fox-> IRC FG is going to hold another meeting.  Need input on a good day to hold it on.  Will fg members please fill in this poll:  http://www.doodle.com/i587anars2qthsty
<bodhi_zazen> Silver-Fox-: poke , don't be shy  =)
<Silver-Fox-> [LINK] http://www.doodle.com/i587anars2qthsty
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://www.doodle.com/i587anars2qthsty
<Silver-Fox-> I have put it on the mailing list,  but not all are active on that.
<Silver-Fox-> This is just covering all the bases
<Silver-Fox-> I am done bodhi_zazen.
<bodhi_zazen> Any other topics ?
<starcraftman> I had fwe quick things
<bodhi_zazen> Anybody think the meeting was too fast ?
<drs305> Nope.
<bodhi_zazen> =)
<starcraftman> bodhi_zazen, wait up.
 * sblunix actually has something
<bodhi_zazen> OK, go starcraftman
<bodhi_zazen> then sblunix
<starcraftman> I r so slow today, or at least feel like it.
 * bodhi_zazen drank too much coffee =)
<ZachK_> speak sblunix
<sblunix> Oh
<sblunix> I go
<sblunix> I thought it was starcraftman
<bodhi_zazen> starcraftman: you done ?
<bodhi_zazen> he is typing
<bodhi_zazen> slowly
<bodhi_zazen> go ahead sblunix
<bodhi_zazen> if you can get a word in that is
<bodhi_zazen> =)
<ZachK_> sblunix:.......
<sblunix> Ok
<sblunix> Well
 * bodhi_zazen listens to crickets chirping
<sblunix> I just saw what Silver-Fox- just posted for the IRC FG
<sblunix> some sort of "when are people available" poll
<sblunix> Wouldn't that be a good idea for actual BT meetings too?
<ZachK_> sblunix: yes and?
<starcraftman> I wanted to note, the mentor list on > https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/FocusGroups/Padawan< has gotten a bit long. I think there's some inactive on there, and not all prolly wanna be mentors. It's not supposed to be a general members list at least imo. Just noting.
<bodhi_zazen> yes, we did that a short time ago and are alternating times of the meeting bi-monthly
 * Silver-Fox- is glad that was sorted =]
<sblunix> starcraftman: Oh I thought the Master list was a general members list...
<bodhi_zazen> sblunix: this time slot alt 2 hours earlier
<sblunix> hmm
<starcraftman> sblunix, well it's for paddys and mentors, but once ya make member ya should only be on it imo if ya wanna mentor.
<ZachK_> sblunix: no...really i believe paultag has to approve
<ZachK_> and bodhi_zazen usually gives his blessing first
<sblunix> :) oh? Buddhists give blessings?
 * Silver-Fox- makes note to actually ask
<Silver-Fox-> =]
<bodhi_zazen> Only the self depreciation ones sblunix
<ZachK_> ok...is that it?
<bodhi_zazen> Any other topics ?
<starcraftman> Only other thing to add is short announcement, I was thinking of going for Ubuntu membership sometime in near future. Anyone wanting to give testimonial on my page, I'd be obliged. I'm sure everyone knows where it is.
<ZachK_> [TOPIC]No topics?
<starcraftman> bodhi_zazen, That's last thing I got.
<Silver-Fox-> The internets starcraftman?
<bodhi_zazen> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 18:50.
<ZachK_> starcraftman: you know i will nominate you
<sblunix> GTG Now
<sblunix> see you all tomorrow
<sblunix> :)
<starcraftman> sblunix, bye
<Silver-Fox-> Oh yes,  while we are all here.  Thank you to all
<sblunix> thanks all
<Silver-Fox-> It was nice to see such support
<ZachK_> your welcome Silver-Fox-
<starcraftman> ZachK_, well, can't really nominate me, ya nominate yourself for consideration. Testimonials on page helps or at meeting in person.
<ZachK_> starcraftman: i meant a testimonial
<starcraftman> ZachK_, kk, I was just being maximum verbose/correct :)
<zul> morning
<smoser> yo
<nijaba> o/
<mathiaz>  /o\
<Daviey> \o
<mathiaz> let
<mathiaz> 's get started
<mathiaz> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 08:00. The chair is mathiaz.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<mathiaz> Welcome to the first Lucid server team meeting!
<mathiaz> There should be many more of these in the months to come
<mathiaz> Today's agenda:
<mathiaz> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<MootBot> New Topic:  Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<mathiaz> kirkland to finish adapting help.ubuntu.com VM recipe(s?) to use libvirt
<mathiaz> nurmi to investigate bug 455625
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 455625 in eucalyptus "Eucalyptus Loses Public IP Address" [Medium,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/455625
<soren> o/
<mathiaz> ttx to create wiki page for 10.04 input from server team (Done)
<soren> URL?
<mathiaz> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/LucidIdeaPool
<soren> We can still add stuff to that page, right?
<mathiaz> soren: yes!
<soren> Whoo!
<smoser> how does that page jive with blueprints / uds ?
<mathiaz> smoser: points on this page should be turned into blueprints
<zul> uh....i started mine
<smoser> thats what i thought.
<soren> zul: What do you mean?
<mathiaz> smoser: blueprints will be selected by mdz and schedule for a session during UDS
<zul> soren: started blueprints
<mathiaz> smoser: where they will be discussed and the scope for Lucid will be defined
<smoser> thanks mathiaz
<soren> mathiaz: So this time, we'll just create placeholder blueprints for everything in that page (roughly)?
<mathiaz> soren: right - I'd suggest to try to cluster some of the points in blueprints
<mathiaz> soren: as some of the points cover the same topics
<soren> mathiaz: Do we know how many sessions we need to fill this time?
<mathiaz> soren: IIRC there will two tracks again
 * soren grumbles
<mathiaz> soren: so as many as last time
<soren> In that case, i doubt we'll need to cluster anything.
<soren> Seriously, there was like a million session in Barcelona.
<mathiaz> robbiew: around? could you confirm this^^?
<mathiaz> soren: right.
<mathiaz> soren: that being said the goal is LTS - so keep this is mind when creating blueprints
<soren> It was difficult to fill that many sessions, and even harder to actually be in two places at once for an entire week.
<zul> and no crack ;)
<soren> We can't fill 40 sessions without crack. :)
<soren> Or 50. Or a million or however many it is.
 * soren is a grumpy, old man today.
<mathiaz> ok - anything else to add to the preparation for Lucid?
 * nijaba wonders what he is, if soren considers himself old
<smoser> i consider soren old
<soren> nijaba: I'm too polite to say :)
<mathiaz> ok - let's move on then.
<nijaba> :P
<zul> soren: im not :)
<smoser> soren's manners came with age
<mathiaz> kirkland and nurmi don't seem to be around
<mathiaz> [ACTION] kirkland to finish adapting help.ubuntu.com VM recipe(s?) to use libvirt
<MootBot> ACTION received:  kirkland to finish adapting help.ubuntu.com VM recipe(s?) to use libvirt
<mathiaz> [ACTION] nurmi to investigate bug 455625
<MootBot> ACTION received:  nurmi to investigate bug 455625
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 455625 in eucalyptus "Eucalyptus Loses Public IP Address" [Medium,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/455625
<smoser> i dont know that kirkland has shown himself, and remember i think he had conflicts
<mathiaz> anything else to with regard to last week meeting?
<kirkland> pretty much done
<kirkland> mathiaz: no
<mathiaz> kirkland: oh you're here - sorry for stating otherwise
<mathiaz> kirkland: what's the url of the VM recipes?
<mathiaz> kirkland: on help.ubuntu.com?
<kirkland> mathiaz: one sec
<kirkland> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/KVM/VirtManager
<kirkland> mathiaz: i still need to do one for virsh
<mathiaz> [ACTION] kirkland to add a recipe covering virsh to https://help.ubuntu.com/community/KVM/VirtManager
<MootBot> ACTION received:  kirkland to add a recipe covering virsh to https://help.ubuntu.com/community/KVM/VirtManager
<mathiaz> anything else to add related to last week meeting?
<mathiaz> nope - let's move on then.
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Assigned and to-be-assigned bugs
<mathiaz> http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/team-assigned/canonical-server-assigned-bug-tasks.html
<MootBot> New Topic:  Assigned and to-be-assigned bugs
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/team-assigned/canonical-server-assigned-bug-tasks.html
<robbiew> mathiaz: soren: ack...2 rooms per product track
<mathiaz> how is everyone doing with their assigned bug?
<zul> mathiaz: been slow
<soren> mathiaz: poorly.
<soren> I have a good excuse though.
<soren> I suck.
<mathiaz> zul: soren: any blockers?
<mathiaz> (other then time)
<zul> mathiaz: nope
 * nijaba thinks that if soren sucks, he does that well...
<soren> Not per se.
<mathiaz> ok - let's move on to the next list:
<mathiaz> https://bugs.launchpad.net/~canonical-server/+assignedbugs
<mathiaz> there is one: 439566
<mathiaz> bug 439566
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 439566 in ubuntu-meta "add python-software-properties to ubuntu-standard" [Wishlist,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/439566
<mathiaz> does it make sense?
<zul> kind of just adding it to the seed?
<mathiaz> well - if it's a good idea to have it added to the seed
<mathiaz> need to make sure it doesn't any pull any GUI stuff though
<Daviey> sure that is a "nice have", but is it SRU worthy?
<mathiaz> Daviey: oh no - not for karmic
<Daviey> oh
<mathiaz> Daviey: we're looking at Lucid here
 * Daviey needs to listen faster
<nijaba> Daviey: SRU is next subject
<zul> mathiaz: doesnt look like it
<soren> I'm not entirely sure I think it belongs in standard.
<soren> I'm also not sure I care enough to argue over it.
<mathiaz> soren: is this something that should be discussed with the fondations team?
<soren> Perhaps.
<Daviey> if it's ubuntu-standard, surely it is foundations remit... if we are talking about adding it to the server seed, then it's here (IMO)
<soren> I'm not sure... When you choose the minimal install thing on the server CD, do you get ubuntu-standard or ubuntu-minimal?
<mathiaz> soren: -minimal IIRC
<soren> mathiaz: Ok. Then I don't care :)
<mathiaz> zul: could you take care of this?
<zul> add it to the server seed? yep
<smoser> mathiaz, where does that list come from ?
<mathiaz> smoser: which list?
<smoser> https://bugs.launchpad.net/~canonical-server/+assignedbugs
<smoser> is it just bugs that are manually assigned to server team?
<mathiaz> smoser: yes
<mathiaz> ok - anything else to add on your assigned bugs?
<ScottK> mathiaz: I'll mention again here that it looks like courier is pretty badly broken at the moment and in need of at least a serious triage effort.
<ScottK> It looks pretty certain that there are SRU worth bugs.
<mathiaz> ScottK: ok. Thanks for mentionning this.
<mathiaz> Any help in that area is welcome!
<mathiaz> That leads us to the next topic:
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Weekly SRU review
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly SRU review
<smoser> i hope to poke on bug 461156 or at least poke the euca folks sometime today
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 461156 in euca2ools "User data is not parsed correctly by Eucalyptus in some cases" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/461156
<mathiaz> smoser: great - seems like it's blocked on upstream
<mathiaz> smoser: to get the fix for the REST/SOAP interface on the server side
<smoser> well, either i need to just fix it or ask nicely.
<smoser> just a bug in the REST interface on server side. (well, after you fix the bug in the client too)
<mathiaz> on the topic of SRU, there is an eucalyptus SRU in the pipeline
<kirkland> mathiaz: i did some testing
<kirkland> mathiaz: and i've added sru test instructions to a couple of the bug descriptions
<kirkland> mathiaz: so far so good here, on the ppa package
<mathiaz> testing the packages using the following PPA is welcome: https://launchpad.net/~mathiaz/+archive/eucalyptus
<mathiaz> kirkland: great - thanks
<mathiaz> any help in testing out these SRU is welcome
<mathiaz> I'll wait at least until tomorrow for ttx comeback
<jsalisbury> mathiaz: I can put this on my test systems and give them a go.
<mathiaz> he should be able to perform some testing as well
<mathiaz> jsalisbury: that would be very helpfull
<mathiaz> let's move on to the bug lists review
<mathiaz> http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ubuntu-server-team/fixedbugs.ubuntu-server.latest.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ubuntu-server-team/fixedbugs.ubuntu-server.latest.html
<mathiaz> anything SRU worthy on these?
<zul> nope
<mathiaz> kirkland: bug 379991?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 379991 in linux "Certain VMs do not run under KVM using karmic's kernel" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/379991
<mathiaz> zul: bug 254375?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 254375 in ntp "SIGSEGV in ntpq " [Low,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/254375
 * kirkland looks
<mathiaz> zul: bug 234302?
<kirkland> mathiaz: i haven't been able to reproduce this one
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 234302 in ipmitool "ipmitool console session crashed with SIGSEGV" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/234302
<kirkland> has anyone here been able to?
<zul> mathiaz: i think I did before long time ago and its supposedly fixed now
<mathiaz> zul: you did what on which bug?
<zul> on bug number 234027
<mathiaz> kirkland: ok - if it can't be easily reproduced and there isn't a clear patch
<kirkland> mathiaz: i marked the linux task invalid
<kirkland> mathiaz: and i think the kvm one is fix-released, with our kvm meta package
<mathiaz> kirkland: ok so nothing to be done on the SRU front
<ScottK> For SRU stuff, I'm working on Bug 473707 for Jaunty and Karmic.  Dapper/Hardy/Intrepid will get it in backports.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 473707 in clamav "Please update clamav to 0.95.3" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/473707
<mathiaz> ScottK: great - thanks
<mathiaz> no more bugs on the previous list. let's move on
<mathiaz> the dapper nominated list is empty
<mathiaz> as well as hardy
<mathiaz> and intrepid
<mathiaz> and jaunty
<mathiaz> and there is a bunch of them for karmic
<zul> url?
<mathiaz> http://tinyurl.com/yz2y6cc
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://tinyurl.com/yz2y6cc
<mathiaz> kirkland: bug 404394
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 404394 in kvm "qcow2 corruption regression" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/404394
<mathiaz> which one should be accepted for SRU in karmic?
<kirkland> mathiaz: this is not a bug in karmic
<kirkland> mathiaz: this is fixed in karmic
<kirkland> mathiaz: possibly needs to be SRUd to jaunty + hardy-backports and intrepid-backports
<mathiaz> kirkland: could you update the bug status then?
<kirkland> okay
<mathiaz> smoser: bug 429169?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 429169 in vm-builder "vmbuider should Include kernel modules in AMIs for ec2" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/429169
<mathiaz> zul: bug 286119?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 286119 in samba "firefox 3.0.3 crashes (no SIG) on most pages w/ images when using nss_wins: 8.10beta AMD64" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/286119
<smoser> mathiaz, ? what did you want there?
<mathiaz> it seems that the rest of the bugs are not SRU worthy
<mathiaz> smoser: is it a valid bug for a Karmic SRU?
<zul> mathiaz: it should be fixed for karmic but ill double check
<soren> A lot of the vmbuilder bugs that were closed recently were really fixed a long time ago. I've tried to go through the list and find stuff that was already fixed, so a lot of these (if not all) will already be in Karmic.
<smoser> thats what i was thikning. thanks soren.
<soren> Well, sure :) Sorry I haven't kept the list groomed as we went along.
<mathiaz> smoser: ok - i've declined the bug for karmic then
<mathiaz> ok - anything else on sru worthy bugs?
<mathiaz> bug 450044
<nijaba> mathiaz: I proposed this one
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 450044 in euca2ools "euca-bundle-vol does not create essential tmpfs mounts when bundling Ubuntu images" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/450044
<mathiaz> nijaba: ^^?
<nijaba> mathiaz: it will hit anyone trying to rebndle a vol
<mathiaz> smoser: is there a fix for it already?
<nijaba> mathiaz: it is marked as fixed by Neil Soman
<smoser> mathiaz, i dont know anything about that  bug.
<nijaba> mathiaz: the reproduction instrutions are in the duplicate bug attached to it
<nijaba> bug #458542
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 458542 in euca2ools "euca-bundle-vol creates unuseable image? (dup-of: 450044)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/458542
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 450044 in euca2ools "euca-bundle-vol does not create essential tmpfs mounts when bundling Ubuntu images" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/450044
<mathiaz> nijaba: ok - seems that it's SRU worthy if it breaks every rebundled image
<nijaba> mathiaz: it does...
<nijaba> and I think bug 470355 might be another duplicate
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 470355 in eucalyptus "ec2-bundle-vol and ec2-upload-bundle result in non accepted manifest" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/470355
<nijaba> but am unsure
<mathiaz> nijaba: nominated/accepted for karmic
<mathiaz> anything else to add on the potential SRU?
<nijaba> mathiaz: thanks
<smoser> i would highly doubt that 470355 is a dupe of 450044
<mathiaz> http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ubuntu-server-team/acceptedbugs.ubuntu-server.latest.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ubuntu-server-team/acceptedbugs.ubuntu-server.latest.html
<mathiaz> This is the state of current assigned bug for SRU
<smoser> you can (at least in ec2) bundle, upload, register *anything*. (seriously, i have registered /boot/config-2.6.31-10-generic)
<mathiaz> the eucalyptus SRU is its way
<mathiaz> kirkland: what about the qemu-kvm?
<kirkland> mathiaz: it's in proposed
<mathiaz> zul: and the other ones?
<kirkland> mathiaz: all 3 bugs have been verification-done
<mathiaz> zul: php samba net-snmp
<kirkland> mathiaz: it's just incubating now
<zul> mathiaz: i have to go through it today
<mathiaz> zul: kirkland: great - things are rolling on the SRU front then
<mathiaz> A reminder: we're trying to use package branches to handle the SRU process
<mathiaz> https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-server/+activereviews <- is where SRU proposal should show up in the end
<mathiaz> zul: has sbeattie been involved in the SRU review process?
<zul> mathiaz: yes he has he reviewed the ipsec-tools one
<mathiaz> ok - let's move on then
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Open Discussion
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open Discussion
<mathiaz> anything else to add before we wrap up?
<smoser> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UEC/Images/NamingConvention is what we're following for publishing builds to e
<smoser> c2 at the moment.  Of particular note is the 'removal policy' I recently got this together, and its now (I hope) in place.
<smoser> In short, 5 builds of each release/arch are kept in 'testing' (daily builds).  When a build 'falls off', it is made private for 30 days before deletion.  This policy covers kernels and ramdisks in '-testing' also.
<smoser> and i've turned 'daily' builds of karmic into twice weekly
<zul> what about hardy daily?
<smoser> :)
<smoser> i turned that on
<smoser> and hopefully we'll have a reasonable hardy build in testing tonight
<smoser> but it will not have kernel/ramdisk associated with it. there is work i have to do to make that happen.
<mathiaz> smoser: is this all automated?
<smoser> so all you ec2 fans that are sticking with hardy may have a nice gift soon.
<smoser> mathiaz, :)
<smoser> yes. i do not wake up every night and do it myself.
<soren> Slacker.
<soren> :p
<zul> then how do you sleep?
<mathiaz> smoser: glad to hear that! ;)
<mathiaz> smoser: are you looking for feedback on the EC2 process or it was just an announcement?
<smoser> https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-on-ec2/vmbuilder/automated-ec2-builds and https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-on-ec2/ubuntu-on-ec2/ec2-publishing-scripts
<smoser> mathiaz, you're welcome to give feedback. i had sent to much smaller group rior to implementing it.
<mathiaz> smoser: may be worth announcing on a blog
<smoser> mathiaz, yeah.
<mathiaz> great - anything else to add?
<smoser> not here.
<ScottK> Another topic for Lucid is spamassassin.
<ScottK> They've gone over a year now without a new release.
<smoser> but people should try our karmic builds on ec2. now at the low price of $0.085/hr.
<mathiaz> ScottK: should we have a session about it at UDS?
<ScottK> Do we leave it stale, switch to svn snapshot, is there something else that people use now?
<zul> smoser: meh
<ScottK> mathiaz: Yes, but we should do some investigation first.
<smoser> if nothing else, the quick mirrors on ec2 are nice. downloads at > 10M/s
<mathiaz> ScottK: agreed.
<mathiaz> ScottK: registering a blueprint and starting a wiki page is the best way to go
 * Daviey still has good hit success with repo spamassassin..
<Daviey> Before considering upgrading to SVN snapshot, it would be well worth dicussing the issue with upstream IMO
<ScottK> One thing we'll need if we switch to svn is someone who will pay close attention and test.
<mathiaz> ok - time to wrap up as we're running out of time here
<ScottK> Daviey: Are you interested in working on this?  Could you contact upstream?
<Daviey> ScottK: wilco.
<ScottK> Daviey: Thanks.
<mathiaz> [ACTION] Daviey to investigate spamassassin status in lucid
<MootBot> ACTION received:  Daviey to investigate spamassassin status in lucid
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] # Agree on next meeting date and time
<MootBot> New Topic:  # Agree on next meeting date and time
<mathiaz> next week same time, same place?
<Daviey> (whilst on this subject, can the fridge cal be updated?)
<mathiaz> Daviey: right - there is still some disucssion about the new meeting time
<mathiaz> may be worth waiting a bit
<Daviey> mathiaz: sure, but the date has been wrong for a few weeks now :)
<Daviey> it shouldn't take much for a fridge admin to update
<mathiaz> Daviey: good pont.
<mathiaz> Daviey: I'll take care of this.
<Daviey> great, thanks :)
<mathiaz> [ACTION] mathiaz to update the fridge
<MootBot> ACTION received:  mathiaz to update the fridge
<mathiaz> so - see you all same time, same place, next week
<mathiaz> thanks for attending
<Daviey> +1
<mathiaz> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 09:12.
 * robbiew waves
<lool> Hey
<mvo> hey
<mvo> welcome lool!
<robbiew> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:00. The chair is robbiew.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<robbiew> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/Meetings/2009/1104#Agenda
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/Meetings/2009/1104#Agenda
 * robbiew apologizes for late agenda
<lool> (/me is finishing his activity report  :-/  )
<robbiew> yeah....I give everyone a pass on activity reports
<robbiew> around release
<robbiew> ;)
<robbiew> if you get them in...great!
<robbiew> if not...I understand ;)
<robbiew> james_w: slangasek: around?
<robbiew> cjwatson: ^
<james_w> hi
<james_w> welcome lool!
<lool> Thanks for the welcomes; I'm excited to work with you folks   :-)
<robbiew> well...looks like we have all we are going to get
<robbiew> and I need to end this in 30min today
<robbiew> [TOPIC] UDS
<MootBot> New Topic:  UDS
<cjwatson> hi
<robbiew> I need to get things scheduled this week...I already have some sessions ready
<robbiew> folks are welcome to send me topics
<robbiew> but no guarantees on if I can get them all in
<robbiew> Deadline is this Friday
<robbiew> just put them in an email...I can do the rest
 * ScottK would like to have a session around removing binaries of stuff that fails to build so we don't ship unsupported stuff (wrote ubuntu-devel on this last week).
<robbiew> and if I have questions, I'll let you know
<robbiew> ack
<robbiew> ScottK...caught that
<robbiew> and will schedule ;)
<ScottK> Thanks.
<robbiew> np
<robbiew> mvo: I still need to read through yours...but rest assured, I have them noted ;)
<cjwatson> I'll dump you over a batch of stuff
<ScottK> Also I retargetted the backports not automatic spec to Lucid.  I'd really like to get that on the official list this time
<robbiew> ok..cool
<mvo> robbiew: cool, I was about to ask if it made it to you :) thanks!
<robbiew> ScottK: sure thing
<robbiew> also caught that ;)
<mvo> robbiew: sorry that its so long again, ideas > time-to-implement
<robbiew> heh
<robbiew> yeah...I'll be the editor ;)
<cjwatson> mvo: you visionary you
<robbiew> [TOPIC] Release Status Page
<MootBot> New Topic:  Release Status Page
<robbiew> so I think we should do ours more like Desktop's
<robbiew> I suppose this only affects cjwatson and I
<cjwatson> heartily concur except I don't know how they keep track
<robbiew> and we both like that
<cjwatson> maybe should get pitti to brain-dump
<robbiew> +1
<robbiew> I think it involves the next topic
<robbiew> [TOPIC] burndown charts
<MootBot> New Topic:  burndown charts
<robbiew> :D
<lool> We used that in mobile
<lool> It's really helpful and easy to setup
<cjwatson> (FWIW: desktop's status page tends to involve what's been fixed in the last week, and what's new, rather than just current status)
<robbiew> right
<cjwatson> how are the work items tracked for burndown?
<robbiew> I can talk to rick as well
<lool> cjwatson: In the whiteboard of specs
<lool> You add a Workitems: line and then one line per work item
<robbiew> pitti does some screen scraping magic on them
<lool> With a status for it
<cjwatson> ok, that seems manageable; is there a (heh) spec for it somewhere?
<lool> There's also an optional "Status:" line to give a one line summary for the burndown report
<robbiew> don't think so
<robbiew> but I think rick wants to have a session on it at UDS
<lool> Concerning release status pages, I would personally go over release targetted bugs and update the status in the wiki page; it's long and tedious so I hope pitti has a better recipe
<lool> (couple of hours every friday updating the status page)
<robbiew> yeah
<cjwatson> lool: that's what I do as well, but it sucks
<lool> Ack
<lool> Perhaps bug-zapper/hugger can help here
<cjwatson> and it's hard to track incoming/outgoing
<robbiew> fwiw, the managers are aware and trying to simplify the whole thing
<lool> cjwatson: I used the wiki page as the snapshot of previous status
<cjwatson> lool: right, but only works if nobody fiddled with the page in the meantime
<robbiew> cjwatson: you and I should be the only ones fiddling...and I subscribe to the page to know when changes are made....but you make a good point
<lool> cjwatson: Wow I wonder where you found people interested in updating the page!  ;)
<robbiew> heh...I think cjwatson was speaking of me fiddling ;)
<mvo> heh :)
<cjwatson> or me, in forgetful mode
 * cjwatson operates on the basis that he can only trust himself when he's paying attention. :)
<robbiew> anyway...we can discuss more at UDS...and get some help from the Desktop guys
<robbiew> [TOPIC] OEM-Priority bugs
<MootBot> New Topic:  OEM-Priority bugs
<robbiew> so to help our oem team, I've started keeping a closer eye on these bugs
<robbiew> and will highlight any that pop up during the week
<robbiew> that affect us
<robbiew> cjwatson is aware of the current two in the agenda...so need to really cover them here
<robbiew> but just wanted to let folks know
<robbiew> [TOPIC] Sponsorship Queue
<MootBot> New Topic:  Sponsorship Queue
<robbiew> I haven't checked it in awhile...with the release and all
<robbiew> but time to focus back on it
<cjwatson> I've left a note in one of those that I may not be able to look until I'm not on-site
<robbiew> right
<cjwatson> is that ok, or does it need higher priority?
<robbiew> should be fine...perhaps evan will get his internet back up
<robbiew> and he can help
<robbiew> heh
<cjwatson> hope so
<robbiew> that's all I got
<robbiew> [TOPIC] AOB
<MootBot> New Topic:  AOB
<robbiew> anything else?
<lool> Is there anything apart of registration + list of specs that we need to prepare for UDS?
<robbiew> nope
<robbiew> [TOPIC] Good News
<MootBot> New Topic:  Good News
<robbiew> We released Karmic!  and apparently TheRegister loved it :P
<james_w> heh
<mvo> and slashdot as well
<lool> :-/
<lool> seb128 sent an email to -desktop recommending to look at karmic SRUs for a couple of weeks but then move over to lucid
<lool> I liked the idea to have this explicit timeframe for SRUs
<james_w> see http://lifehacker.com/5396761/how-do-you-like-ubuntu-910-so-far for a much more positive poll on karmic
<james_w> 65% voted almost perfect or better
<cjwatson> please keep UbuntuReviews on the internal wiki up to date if you find interesting 9.10 links
<robbiew> cool
<robbiew> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:31.
<robbiew> thanks all!
<mvo> thanks
<james_w> thanks
 * pedro_ waves
<ara> hello!
<davmor2> hello
<ara> mmm
<fader_> Is the QA meeting now or in an hour?  (Google calendar is confusing me today.)
<ara> it is now
<ara> now it is 17UTC
<pedro_> fader_, 1700 UTC as in now
<fader_> Thanks
<pedro_> fader_, got the same issue in the morning it's listed at 1800 there
<cr3> hi folks, ready for the Ubuntu QA meeting?
<bdmurray> hi
<pedro_> yes
<ara> hello :)
<sbeattie> Hey
<fader_> Greetings
<davmor2> howdo
<moustafa> Hello all
<fader_> I will try to give marjo a call -- I suspect DST has bitten him
<ara> OK, shall we start?
<fader_> marjo is on his way
<cr3> ara: lets, this channel is logged anyways for anyone who might miss the beginning
 * marjo waves
<ara> hey!
<marjo> #startmeeting QA Team
<MootBot> Meeting started at 11:11. The chair is marjo.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<marjo> agenda:
<marjo> # SRU testing -- sbeattie (Steve Beattie)
<marjo> # Bugday highlights -- pedro
<marjo> #
<marjo> UDS Questions & Answers
<marjo> hi folks
<marjo> sorry, got bit by the google calendar "bug"
 * fader_ shakes a fist in impotent rage at DST.
<marjo> [TOPIC] SRU testing
<MootBot> New Topic:  SRU testing
<sbeattie> As everyone might imagine, SRU acivity has ramped up since the release of karmic
<sbeattie> SRU Activity for the past two weeks (since 2009-10-21):
<sbeattie> * Karmic: 57(!) new packages in -proposed and 5 packages pushed to -updates (kerneloops, python2.6, ubiquity, ubuntuone-client, update-manager)
<sbeattie> * Jaunty: 6 new packages (tzdata, evolution-indicator, isdnutils, linux, moodle, update-manager) and 6 packages pushed to -updates (tzdata, blogtk, landscape-client, net-snmp, openafs, smart)
<sbeattie> * Intrepid: 1 new package in -proposed (tzdata), and 4 packages pushed to -updates (landscape-client, smart, sun-java6, tzdata)
<sbeattie> * Hardy: 4 new packages in -proposed (moodle, pidgin, tzdata, virtualbox-ose-modules) and 4 packages pushe
<sbeattie> d to -updates (debian-installer, net-snmp, sun-java5, tzdata)
<sbeattie> * Dapper: 1 new package in -proposed (langpack-locales) and 2 packages pushed to -updates (langpack-locales, sun-java5)
<ara> wow! 57 packages!
<sbeattie> Thanks to Peter Lyons, leighman, Antoine Pairet, jazz, max, Henning Moll, Tobias Kerzenmacher, stealthbanana, Nait, ScottK, unggnu, zooko, Ernst Kloppenburg, Marco Cimmino, Jonathan Thomas, sektor, Mary Gardiner, Douglas Bagnall, starslights, iMac, Whoopie and others for testing proposed packages.
<sbeattie> ara: indeed!
<pedro_> nice progress on http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/pending-sru.html
<pedro_> a lot of green numbers there :-))
<sbeattie> (57 *source* packages)
<sbeattie> pedro_ and bdmurray have been busy verifiying fixes as well.
<pedro_> is there anything there that might need more attention?
<bdmurray> bug 465619
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 465619 in apport "apport enabled after a distribution upgrade from Jaunty to Karmic" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/465619
<pedro_> pitti raised a bug the other day anything else?
<bdmurray> I'm actually kind of curious how we'll do that...
<davmor2> bdmurray: magic?
<bdmurray> sbeattie: do you have any ideas?
<moustafa> davmor2: That's the Tycho Brahe answer
<sbeattie> bdmurray: I'm not sure I understand the issue...
<marjo> bdmurray: what do you mean by "how we'll do that"?
<bdmurray> one will need to do a dist-upgrade using an older version of update-manager 0.126.6
<bdmurray> to test the apport fix
 * sbeattie is confused, why isn't that a jaunty bug?
<pedro_> i was about to ask that
<pedro_> mvo, around?
<mvo> yes
 * mvo reads backlog
<pedro_> mvo, any ideas on how to deal with that sru?
<pedro_> mvo, thanks
<mvo> so you need a older update-manager?
<mvo> for the apport fix you could simply simulate the behvior of u-m by copying a file into /etc/default
<mvo> that is all that u-m does, I can add instructions to the report
<pedro_> that'd be neat
<bdmurray> doesn't that apport fix check for the version of update-manager used to upgrade?
<bdmurray> comment 8
<mvo> bdmurray: you caught me unprepared, let me look at the diff
<bdmurray> mvo: sorry, we were just talking about SRUs and I was trying to figure out how to do that one
<mvo> bdmurray: indeed, it needs more than just copying thefile in place, I can upload a older version of u-m
<bdmurray> "if grep -q "release-upgrader version '0.126.[56]'" /var/log/dist-upgrade/main.log && \"
<mvo> bdmurray: I will upload and add verification instructions after dinner
<bdmurray> mvo: or if we disabled -updates would that work since 0.126.6 is in main?
<mvo> bdmurray: it won't, the meta-release stuff is pointing to -updates already unfortunately
<mvo> bdmurray: however all you really need to do is just download the 0.126.6 version manually, unpack, run
<mvo> that is all that u-m does
<bdmurray> mvo: okay, thanks!
<sbeattie> mvo: thanks!
<mvo> I think I can even tackle this sru verification, I have VMs around with jaunty etc
<bdmurray> mvo: oh, actually but nobody will see this update for 7 days or so though right?  after the fix is verified
<mvo> *urgh* yes
<mvo> thanks design team!
<bdmurray> that's really really unfortunate
<sbeattie> well, prod the security teamto do more updates, doesn't that trigger update-manager?
<bdmurray> heh
<mvo> it does :)
<mvo> firefox, where are you when we need you :P
<bdmurray> I think we missed that one by a wee bit
<jdstrand> hey! I just published firefox on friday :P
<sbeattie> anyway, I think we've digressed. To summarize, update-manager and other SRUs could use your love and attention.
<marjo> sbeattie: anything else on SRU update?
<sbeattie> that's all from me.
<marjo> [TOPIC]  Bugday highlights -- pedro
<MootBot> New Topic:   Bugday highlights -- pedro
<sbeattie> (but I'll happily take questions in #ubuntu-testing)
<marjo> ok thx
<pedro_> we didn't run a bug day on the previous week, because of the release (-ETOOMUCHTODO)
<pedro_> but jcastro asked me to have one this week for gwibber so https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugDay/20091105
<marjo> pedro_ : ok thx for the update
<pedro_> the upstream folks are going to UDS to perfect time to have a look into the reports and look for any serious one to raise with them
<pedro_> that's all from here
<marjo> [TOPIC] UDS Questions & Answers
<MootBot> New Topic:  UDS Questions & Answers
<ara> OK, I just put this topic so anyone can ask questions and comment things about UDS
<marjo> are there any questions from the group?
<ara> as you know, you can start registering blueprints at https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/
<ara> I would like to comment that it is always good to have blueprints start with "lucid-qa"
<ara> so we can find them better
<ara> marjo, do we have an deadline for blueprints?
<marjo> the deadline for Lucid UDS schedule is 9/11/2009
<marjo> All *existing* blueprints should be scheduled by this date.
<marjo> the only deadline i've received is "end of this week"
<marjo> so, let's shoot for that
<marjo> i.e. this Friday the 6th
<marjo> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/?searchtext=lucid-qa
<marjo> any more questions or comments on UDS?
<marjo> any new topics to discuss today?
<ara> bdmurray, I have one
<bdmurray> yes?
<ara> bdmurray, I see some of your blueprints already appear at https://blueprints.launchpad.net/sprints/uds-l
<ara> bdmurray, how do you do that?
<bdmurray> "Propose for sprint"
<ara> bdmurray, that first step I already did it :)
<ara> bdmurray, there has to be something else
<bdmurray> hmm, maybe its some superpower I have ;-)
<bdmurray> because that was all I did
<ara> bdmurray, weird
<bdmurray> ara: what spec?
<marjo> ara: i will ask jorge to give you superpowers that bdmurray has
<ara> bdmurray, choose any of these: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/?searchtext=lucid-qa
<marjo> jcastro, i mean
<jcastro> as you put them in launchpad they will appear in the scheduling system
<jcastro> ara, pm me in a few minutes and I can help you
<marjo> thx jcastro
<ara> jcastro, thanks
<marjo> jcastro: so in that sense, it's automatic? or does it still require "lead" power?
<jcastro> anyone can propose sprints
<jcastro> and they just show up in the scheduler
<jcastro> then all marjo needs to do is drop them into the slots
<ara> jcastro, so my question remains
<ara> jcastro, i.e. this blueprint https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/lucid-qa-cloud-testing is proposed for uds-l
<jcastro> right
<ara> jcastro, but it does not appear in https://blueprints.launchpad.net/sprints/uds-l
 * jcastro looks
<pedro_> aah
<pedro_> someone needs to approve that blueprint for lucid
<pedro_> look at the icon there there's a ? sign
<jcastro> ah, pedro is correct
<ara> jcastro, and who can approve?
<pedro_> and if you look into the one of bdmurray there's a ok ticket which i think means approved
<jcastro> right
<jcastro> ara, the track lead
<jcastro> marjo, can you click on the ? and it should ask you to approve/decline
<marjo> i did, but i got no approve/decline
<jcastro> hmm, that appears to be an lp thing, maybe you're not in the right group?
<jcastro> I have megapowers so I can just approve all of yours ara so we don't block
<jcastro> marjo, I think you need to ask someone on the lp team to give you approval rights for blueprints.
<marjo> jcastro: thx, but we need to figure out what's going on
 * jcastro nods
<marjo> jcastro: ok will do
<jcastro> I'll go ask on lp
<jcastro> bbiab
<davmor2> right I need to go hospital visiting hours are in.
<marjo> davmor2: thx
<marjo> folks: anything else?
<marjo> i'll follow up w/ jcastro privately
<marjo> i want to congratulate everyone on the successful high quality Karmic release!
<marjo> everyone on the QA team worked very hard and very late to finish testing
<marjo> I appreciate all your hard work and look forward to a very exciting Lucid release
<marjo> going once
<marjo> going twice
<marjo> meeting adjourned
<marjo> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:53.
<pedro_> thanks
<ara> thanks!
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-11-05
<dpm> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 09:00. The chair is dpm.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<adiroiban> hi o/
<dpm> so hello everyone, and welcome to this translations meeting
<dpm> hi adiroiban :)
<happyaron> hi
<dpm> hi happyaron o/
<dpm> we've got a bit of a bad timing today, because we're on the same time as OpenWeek
<adiroiban> yep
<dpm> but we can just go along now
<happyaron> ok
<dpm> so just before we start, is there anyone else present for the meeting?
<dpm> ok, it seems there are no more people around. That's fine, let's kick off the first topic
<dpm> [TOPIC] Promoting and using the Ubuntu Translations project
<MootBot> New Topic:  Promoting and using the Ubuntu Translations project
<dpm> We've talked about this in previous meetings
<dpm> so far the feedback has been positive on the u-t project
<dpm> and now that we're confident that it is working well
<dpm> we'd like to let people know about it
<adiroiban> before making the big announcement we still need to define the bug reporting process
<dpm> ok, so we want to focus on bug reporting
<dpm> first
<dpm> we've got https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Translations/KnowledgeBase/ReportingBugs as groundwork
<dpm> but we should discuss other aspects as well
<dpm> like which tags we use and
<dpm> e.g. how do we triage them
<dpm> adiroiban, I think you made some suggestions on the agenda page
<adiroiban> yep. I tryind to experiment with various practice in handling bugs
<adiroiban> tried
<adiroiban> one suggestion was not to mark âalso affect this projectâ for bugs or errors in translations
<adiroiban> âl10nâ bugs
<adiroiban> for packages in main
<dpm> yep, I think it's a good idea
<adiroiban> if the package is not in main... then we need support from the developer/package maintainer
<adiroiban> also, I think we can stop using l10n and i18n tags
<adiroiban> or make them optional
<adiroiban> with the new Ubuntu Translation project
<dpm> on the first item, yes, then we can add the bug task for the relevant Ubuntu package
<adiroiban> i was not using them
<adiroiban> ok. sorry for not finalizing
<adiroiban> ok
<adiroiban> so back to first issue - project assignation
<adiroiban> if the package is in main, the bug is for Ubuntu Translations only and we can assign the ubuntu-l10n-CC team
<adiroiban> we can suggest/link in the description the string that needs to be fixed
<dpm> I basically agree - we should then define a process for when the package is in universe, etc -> open a bug task for the ubuntu package, one for the upstream project, report it upstream and link the upstream bug to the upstream project
<adiroiban> also agree with bugs in universe :)
 * happyaron agreed
<dpm> ok, so we should probably add a section on this to the ReportingBugs page
<dpm> [ACTION] Add section on project assignation to the ReportingBugs page
<MootBot> ACTION received:  Add section on project assignation to the ReportingBugs page
<adiroiban> for the UserDocs (ReportingBugs wiki) i was thinking only to add the info for opening but to Ubuntu Translations
<adiroiban> and create another doc for handling bugs
<adiroiban> I see 2 docs ReportingBugs and HandlingBugs
<adiroiban> ReportingBugs is the general audiance page
<adiroiban> with minimun info on it
<adiroiban> just the required info for users to open a new bug
<adiroiban> I assume that many of Ubuntu users just want to underline an error in the translation
<adiroiban> no need to explain them about universe / upstream / etc
<dpm> adiroiban, ok, it makes sense to me. Documentation for the general audience should be concise and eays to read
<adiroiban> the HandlingBugs page is useful for Ubuntu translators and for people helping with QA / bug triage
<adiroiban> yep
<adiroiban> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ReportingBugs#Filing%20translation%20bugs
<happyaron> sounds good
<adiroiban> that is the place were we should put the general audience info
<dpm> adiroiban, I agree. One thing I'd like to do is to check out with the QA team the wording used in the main page, so that they agree on the text we put there as well
<adiroiban> dpm: I agree
<dpm> so, let's take this to actions:
<dpm> [AGREED] Separate pages on reporting (general audience) and handling (translations team) bugs
<MootBot> AGREED received:  Separate pages on reporting (general audience) and handling (translations team) bugs
<adiroiban> I have added those info on the ReportingBugs page, just to have some information while we discuss the final version
<dpm> great
<dpm> [ACTION] Contact the QA team to review the text on the main community/ReportingBugs page
<MootBot> ACTION received:  Contact the QA team to review the text on the main community/ReportingBugs page
<dpm> I can take care of that one ^
<dpm> ok, what I think we need to discuss as well
<dpm> is tags, as Adi was mentioning
<dpm> and Triaging (priorities and assignment)
<dpm> these would be good candidates for sections on the the HandlingBugs page
<adiroiban> yep
<dpm> Let's go on with tags, then
<dpm> adiroiban, you were saying that the l10n and i18n tags might not be useful?
<adiroiban> just a general note: before seting the final version, maybe we should gain a little more experience with working with bugs.
<adiroiban> I don't find them useful
<adiroiban> all i18n bugs would be marked as also affecting a project
<dpm> yeah, good point. I think we'll learn as we go along. And since the HandlingBugs page content is basically still for the translations team use only, I think we can be flexible
<adiroiban> an l10n would only affect Ubuntu Translations
<dpm> (my comment^ was for the point on bug handling experience)
<adiroiban> right now this is my only comment for bugs... but maybe while working with Ubuntu Translations bugs
<adiroiban> I will discover some good usage for tags :)
<dpm> but do the i18n tags really bring any disadvantage? It's easy to add them, and I find them useful for filtering
<happyaron> I wonder if we need to track bugs for cjk fonts, for example
<adiroiban> I was thinking at using a âneed-lang-packâ update for bugs l10n in Hardy , Intrepid
<adiroiban> and other lang-packs that need manual updates
<dpm> and getting an overview of what bugs are technical and which ones are translation only
<dpm> what about creating a wiki page for everyone's proposal's on tags? We can add which tags we think could be useful and discuss anv even vote them
<adiroiban> yep
<happyaron> +1
<dpm> the person proposing a tag should reason why they'd like to see that tag used
<dpm> and why they think it'd be helpful
<adiroiban> i agree
<dpm> ok, I think this could apply as well for triaging and assigning priorities
<dpm> i.e. we could create a HandlingBugsBrainstorm page or similar
<dpm> with the points that need discussion
<adiroiban> or just HandlingBugs
<adiroiban> and create a braistorm section
<dpm> yeah, that'd work as well
<dpm> ok, I think we all agree on that, don't we?
<happyaron> agree
<adiroiban> yep
<dpm> is there anything particular you'd like to point out or discuss on triaging or priorities at this point?
<dpm> I think that might need a longer discussion
<dpm> at least the "how do we assign priorities" part
<dpm> but if there's anything you'd like to comment now
<dpm> feel free
<adiroiban> we should talk that after gaining some experience
<adiroiban> I'm still trying to look over all new bugs and triage them
<dpm> ok, we'll just add a section and add content as we go along
<dpm> so
<adiroiban> after that I plan to look at how we solve them :p
<dpm> [AGREED] Add a brainstorm section to the HandlingBugs page, including: a tags section with proposals on which tags might be useful, a Triaging section with the agreed practices on triaging and assignments
<MootBot> AGREED received:  Add a brainstorm section to the HandlingBugs page, including: a tags section with proposals on which tags might be useful, a Triaging section with the agreed practices on triaging and assignments
<dpm> ok, is there anything else you'd like to discuss on that point? Or shall we go to the next topic?
<adiroiban> we can go to the next topic
<dpm> [TOPIC] Ubuntu Translations Announcements
<MootBot> New Topic:  Ubuntu Translations Announcements
<dpm> adiroiban, all yours :)
<adiroiban> :)
<adiroiban> the ideas is to write an announcement one
<adiroiban> and let it spread over multiple communication channels
<adiroiban> I saw David was using the LP announcement
<adiroiban> but I don't know how many people are reading / receiving them
<adiroiban> I just wanted a brainstorming session
<dpm> it sounds like a brilliant idea to me :) Do you have any ideas for the implementation?
<adiroiban> about how we can spread the word about Ubuntu Translations actions
<adiroiban> right now, we send an email to ubuntu-translators ML
<adiroiban> but I don't know if from there
<adiroiban> it will also reach the ML for each team
<happyaron> planet will be good
<adiroiban> so maybe planet-ubuntu is a first step
<dpm> one easy way to reach the planet is the Fridge
<adiroiban> in letting translators know about various actions
<adiroiban> dpm: we can just add the Ubuntu Translations Announcement RSS via to planet-ubuntu
<adiroiban> dpm: we can just add the Ubuntu Translations Announcement RSS direclty to planet-ubuntu
<dpm> that's a good point
<dpm> I'd only have to have a look at how to do it :)
<adiroiban> I don't know to much about how fridge works
<dpm> but seems doable
<adiroiban> dpm: all ubuntu member have access to planet.ubuntu.com config file
<adiroiban> and RSS url is http://feeds.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-translations/announcements.atom
<dpm> adiroiban, I know, but the ubuntu-translations project is not exactly a member :)
<adiroiban> then we can look at the fridge :)
<dpm> I'd have to ask around on what permissions and checks are made to feeds added to the config file
<adiroiban> but debian package of the day
<adiroiban> is not a member
<adiroiban> same for Kubuntu feeds
<dpm> adiroiban, I also think it's doable, I just would have to ask. I don't know right now if it's just a matter of adding the feed
<adiroiban> ok
<adiroiban> in planet.ubuntu.com
<dpm> Anyway, just as additional info re: the Fridge, the news team publishes
<adiroiban> we have a lot of announcement feeds from other Ubuntu teams
<dpm> news people send to them
<adiroiban> server / studio / screencast  / packaging / qa
<adiroiban> ok
<dpm> yes, this could be of course expanded. The RSS announcements from ubuntu-translations can only contain text
<dpm> if we were to use a blog for the whole translations team or the Fridge, we could also post pictures and other content
<adiroiban> I would start with small steps :)
<adiroiban> and see the feedback
<dpm> adiroiban, yeah, yeah :) I was just mentioning it
<adiroiban> :p
<adiroiban> but if there is a nice integration between a blog and LP teams
<dpm> I think there isn't, but I'd have to check
<adiroiban> we can use it :)
<dpm> yep
<adiroiban> we can look at Ubuntu server blog
<adiroiban> and see how they manage it
<adiroiban> ok
<dpm> adiroiban, that would make for a good topic on the translations roundtable on UDS
<adiroiban> :) if you say so :)
<dpm> sure
<adiroiban> I just want to make sure translators are aware of Ubuntu Translations annoucement
<adiroiban> like the ubiquity string freeze
<adiroiban> those are important announcements
<dpm> anyway, for now I can look at adding the rss feed to p.u.c or directly publish the announcements on the Fridge
<dpm> [ACTION] David to look at adding the ubuntu-translations rss feed to p.u.c or directly publish the announcements on the Fridge
<MootBot> ACTION received:  David to look at adding the ubuntu-translations rss feed to p.u.c or directly publish the announcements on the Fridge
<adiroiban> ok. If we agree to post announcment is a single place
<adiroiban> the next step would be to add the feed in a public place
<adiroiban> ok
<dpm> adiroiban, I agree, but I still cannot see how this can be technically implemented
<adiroiban> why ?
<adiroiban> :p
<adiroiban> or where do you see the problem
<adiroiban> ?
<dpm> which application would you use to write the announcement once and get it automatically published to the ML and p.u.c?
<adiroiban> Launchpad
<adiroiban> https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-translations/+announce
<dpm> adiroiban, which current LP feature would you use for that? AFAIK, we cannot automatically publish announcements there to the ML
<adiroiban> as I workaround I will write a script for that
<dpm> adiroiban, that was my question
<adiroiban> and look into LP announcement code to also queue a message via email
<adiroiban> ok
<dpm> adiroiban, ok, but I think for now
<dpm> it's just as easy as a woraround until such script is implemented, to:
<dpm> 1) write the announcement on u-t
<dpm> 2) copy the text and send an e-mail to the ML
<adiroiban> yep
<adiroiban> :)
<dpm> A big improvement would be to additionally add the u-t feed to p.u.c
<dpm> and I think that's something we could already look into
<dpm> if it's as easy as adding the feed to the planet's config file
<adiroiban> regarding planet.ubuntu.com, maybe we can ask for feedback from community-council
<adiroiban> or you can ask your team for feedback :p
<dpm> heh, yes, I can do that :)
<dpm> [ACTION] David to talk to the Community team about translation feeds on p.u.c
<MootBot> ACTION received:  David to talk to the Community team about translation feeds on p.u.c
<dpm> ok, unless there are any other comments, let's have one last topic quickly, we're over time, but I think it is an interesting one
<dpm> what do you say?
<adiroiban>  :)
<adiroiban> we can continue
<happyaron> ok
<adiroiban> uh... task ... that is one useful tag :)
<dpm> [TOPIC] Current Translations tasks
<MootBot> New Topic:  Current Translations tasks
<adiroiban> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-translations/+bugs?field.tag=task
<adiroiban> regarding kdelibs and other kde problems , I think we will talk at UDS
<dpm> ok, let me add an action to remind us of that
<adiroiban> same with APT. I think I will be in the same plane with mvo
<adiroiban> and I will talk about apt / synaptic upstream translations
<dpm> [ACTION] David to add kdelibs task to the Kubuntu UDS session
<MootBot> ACTION received:  David to add kdelibs task to the Kubuntu UDS session
<dpm> adiroiban, synaptic's upstream is now Ubuntu AFAIK
<dpm> mvo is the maintainer
<dpm> apt is still probably Debian
<adiroiban> yep. so debian is not using synaptic ?
<adiroiban> I don't know if mvo is exporting the LP translations into the synaptic source package
<happyaron> adiroiban: AFAIK, yes, it is using
<adiroiban> https://translations.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/karmic/+source/synaptic
<dpm> adiroiban, we'd have to ask him if he's doing that, but we can just as well look at the bzr branch commits
<adiroiban> better to look into commints
<mvo> dpm, adiroiban: I'm not importing them automatically currently, I do import them if someone asks me
<adiroiban> commits
<adiroiban> :)
<dpm> there you go :)
<mvo> we should have a quick chat about it at the plane and/or uds :)
<dpm> cool
<mvo> I'm fine with moving synaptic to LP, apt is a bit different, debian is heavily involved in the translations there
<mvo> but I got some questions myself, so uds is a good opportunity to discuss that :)
<adiroiban> yep
<adiroiban> no hurry
<adiroiban> âânext task bug 39581
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 39581 in linux-source-2.6.15 "SoundBlaster Live! 24-bit recognized as SB AudigyLS" [Low,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/39581
<adiroiban> hm...
<adiroiban> :)
<dpm> :)
<adiroiban> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-translations/+bug/395812
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 395812 in ubuntu-translations "Change Ubuntu translations policy from Structured to Restricted" [High,In progress]
<dpm> ok, on the next task on the list, I've finally managed to contact the TB
<dpm> regarding this, and I've created a page with all relevant information:
<dpm> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuTranslationsCoordinators/OngoingProjects/SwitchToRestricted
<adiroiban> ok
<happyaron> a question, if we turn to restricted, can people aren't in the respective translation teams make suggestions as well?
<dpm> happyaron, that will only affect languages without a team assigned in the ubuntu-translators group
<adiroiban> happyaron: everyone can make suggestions
<happyaron> oh, I see, thanks
<dpm> I'm sorry it's taking that long because it's been blocking on me, but I'll make sure it moves forward
<adiroiban> ok
<adiroiban> np
<adiroiban> we have already talked about https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-translations/+bug/455966
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 455966 in ubuntu-translations "Ubuntu translations bug reporting process " [High,In progress]
<dpm> ok
<adiroiban> next would be https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-translations/+bug/395811
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 395811 in ubuntu-translations "Improve templates priority assignment" [Medium,In progress]
<dpm> I haven't scheduled an extra session on that, but I think we could talk about this at UDS as well, and actually perhaps even bump the importance to High
<adiroiban> the feedback is here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Translations/TemplatesPriority
<adiroiban> I think I will have to clean / format
<adiroiban> the wiki page
<adiroiban> and then set the priorities
<dpm> adiroiban, yes, I know the page from the previous discussions. At the moment you are the only one working on that, and I think UDS will be a good chance to get together and get more people involved
<dpm> in helping on that
<adiroiban> ok
<dpm> Anyway, I propose leaving the Wishlist items for a future discussion and end the meeting unless there are other comments or final points to discuss
<adiroiban> yep
<adiroiban> the new locale definitions are ok
<adiroiban> for Chuvash I'm working with upstream developer to include it in glibc
<happyaron> I think we can have a page on how to create new locale
<happyaron> since I only have seen adiroiban working on that, and feel helpless myself
<adiroiban> yep. I just wait to get more experience in working with locales
<rustic_> hello, what do you think of Project Timelord? particularly, it states: the Launchpad Translations system is counter-productive to achieving the goal of a localized, human KDE experience"
<adiroiban> and then I will try to write a wikipage / FAQ
<happyaron> adiroiban: good, :)
<dpm> happyaron, we've got https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Translations/KnowledgeBase/AddingNewLanguage, perhaps adiroiban can add more info on the experience he's gained on defining locales
<adiroiban> rustic_: I think we can talk about that in #ubuntu-translators
<adiroiban> I don't know anything about that project
<rustic_> okay
<adiroiban> and no aware of any discussion on ubuntu-translators mailing lists
<dpm> rustic_, for the record, here are my thoughts -> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/kubuntu-devel/2009-November/003481.html
<adiroiban> dpm: rustic_ do we have a link to the project ?
<happyaron> adiroiban: kubuntu.org announcement
<dpm> adiroiban, I CC'd ubuntu-translators, did you not get the e-mail?
<adiroiban> but that is vague
<adiroiban> dpm: I got that email
<happyaron> adiroiban: there is a detailed PDF you can read
<adiroiban> but I don't know how to put those info into context
<dpm> anyway, let's finish the meeting and move this discussion to #ubuntu-translators
<adiroiban> ok
<happyaron> ok
<dpm> Thank you everyone for your participation
<dpm> and see you on the next one! :)
<adiroiban> rustic_: please join #ubuntu-tranlators
<adiroiban> yep
<dpm> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:27.
<bodhi_zazen> Technoviking: poke =)
<jdong> ok i'm gonna take 10 minutes at the start of the meeting to grab some food
<bodhi_zazen> I have an unexpected meeting today, I will miss the FC meeting, although if it goes long enough I may be back
<Technoviking> owie
<bodhi_zazen> 'lo jdong
<jdong> but I'll have my iPhone on me
<jdong> which gets IRC highlights pushed instantly
<jdong> so I won't be terribly gone ;-)
<bodhi_zazen> I just wanted to introduce the T&E team and it seems there is general agreement to close the 64 bit forum
<bodhi_zazen> I am neutral on a video drier forum, tending to -1
<Technoviking> do we have concenous on the #ubuntuforum irc
<bodhi_zazen> and that is all that is on the agenda =)
<bodhi_zazen> we are I think 1 shy at the moment
<jdong> Technoviking: I think we're just missing input from Ryan
<jdong> which I'd like to hear before sending out a reply
<bodhi_zazen> gotta run, sorry =(
<Technoviking> jdong: sounds good
<Technoviking> bodhi_zazen: later
<jdong> bodhi_zazen: see ya
<jdong> ok, be back in 10 minutes.
<Technoviking> ok
<Technoviking> any ome else here for the Forums council meeting, we will start in a few
<jdong> ok I have returned :)
<Technoviking> think it is just us
<jdong> sure looks that way
<jdong> *looks at agenda*
<jdong> of everything on the agenda, I think the only thing trivial that we can do with the turnout is close the 64-bit forum?
<jdong> in the staff forum we've got pretty much universal consensus on that
<Technoviking> An announcement has been posted and and 64 bit prefix have been added
<jdong> *nods*
<Technoviking> anyone else want to comment about this?
<Technoviking> very good, I'm glad to see 64 bit is close enough to 32 bit that it does not need to be separate anymore
<jdong> yeah, I am too
<Technoviking> Anything else we can discuss?
<jdong> I don't suppose TormodVolden is around to talk about the video driver forum...
<Ms_Angel_D> Hello, I came to represent the T&E Team
<jdong> ok I'm reading the pastebin right now
<Ms_Angel_D> actually jdong we have this https://wiki.ubuntu.com/forestpixie/Sandbox
<jdong> ah very nice; that should be added to the wiki replacing the pastebin
<jdong> I'm generally positive on the idea
<Ms_Angel_D> After many conversations the wiki represents what we as a group feel could help the issue's presented
<jdong> but unfortunately I don't believe the council has enough of a presence to make decisions on it this meeting...
<Ms_Angel_D> I understand jdong
<Ms_Angel_D> I just wanted to float it out there
<Technoviking> Ms_Angel_D: We will forward the link to them and get the discussion going
<Ms_Angel_D> Thank you very much Technoviking
<Technoviking> I have not heard from anyone else, should we call it
<jdong> yeah, I agree
<jdong> thanks for coming, Ms_Angel_D
<jdong> hopefully we'll have a more lively turnout next time :)
<Ms_Angel_D> Thanks for listening jdong, Technoviking
<jdong> our pleasure
<Ms_Angel_D> I understand ;)
<Technoviking> Ms_Angel_D: thanks for coming
<Ms_Angel_D> :D
<bodhi_zazen> back =)
<jdong> lol just a tad too late :)
<bodhi_zazen> sorry about that ;)
<bodhi_zazen> is there anything we really needed to decide ?
<Technoviking> not now, we should vote on the video forum on the list, I feel it is a -1 for me
<bodhi_zazen> -1
<bodhi_zazen> I feel it is best in the current sections, it is very hardware specific
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-11-06
<RoAk> RainCT, you are the creator of pbuilder-dist right?
<RainCT> RoAk: yeah
<ScottK> Based originally on a script made by Laserjock from the sample that comes with pbuilder
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-11-07
 * dharman_away is away: Gone away for now
 * dharman is back.
 * dharman_away is away: Gone away for now
 * dharman is back.
<Ddorda0> it's been 4 days since I've got membered, but i still didn't got the mail alias, any idea what could be the reason
<Ddorda0> ?
<popey> Ddorda0: which membership board did you attend?
 * popey has a feeling he knows the answer to this one
<Ddorda0> popey: you approved me -.-
<popey> did you use a different nickname?
<popey> Ddorda0: ?
<popey> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/EMEA?action=recall&rev=298
<popey> i dont see you there
<Ddorda0> what the..?
<Ddorda0> but you've just approved me! let's check out the logs...
<popey> Ddorda0: is that your normal irc nickname?
<popey> thats why...
<Ddorda0> no
<popey> === Ddorda0 is now known as Ddorda
<popey> you changed nick
<Ddorda> here
<popey> http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2009/11/03/%23ubuntu-meeting.txt
<Ddorda> [21:02] <Seveas> welcome aboard Ddorda!
<Ddorda> here
<popey> yes, I have found it
<Ddorda> that's odd
<popey> I couldn't figure out why I coudlnt' see you on the wiki page, and it's because you added it on the 3rd nov
<popey> I was looking at an older copy of the wiki page
<popey> sorry
<Ddorda> oh... I see lol
<Ddorda> so now in 48 hours I'm suppose to get a mail address?
<popey> have you tested the mail address?
<Ddorda> I did, many times.. to try again?
<popey> what address are you testing?
<Seveas> Ddorda, there is no fixed schedule for mail address creation. Check in a week or so
<popey> it runs as a semi-automatic script, the canonical system admins are the ones who do that
<popey> you can ask elmo if/when he next plans to run it
<Ddorda> oh.. but the wiki says it runs twice a week..
<popey> its not fully automatic
<popey> they run it manually to ensure nothing breaks
<popey> it may have been overlooked
<Ddorda> I see
<Ddorda> well, what's elmo's nick?
<popey> elmo
<Ddorda> I guess the wiki page about it shpuld be edited, because it says the script runs once in 48 hours
<popey> on the whole I'm sure it does
<popey> but it's not massively high priority the week after a release
<Ddorda> I see
<Ddorda> he's not answering, so I'll just keep the computer open at the night, thanks a lot :)
<popey> leave a message for him
<popey> or just wait
<popey> it's likely to get done sometime soon when someone in the IS department has time
<Ddorda> yea, I understand.. I just die to use that address :P
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-11-08
<rodrigo_> diwic, are we having the meeting?
<diwic> rodrigo_, heh, wish I knew :-)
<rodrigo_> ok :)
<diwic> rodrigo_, seems like it's difficult to schedule a time that works for everybody
<rodrigo_> yeah
<diwic> ronoc, are you around?
<ronoc> yup#
<ronoc> yeah so I can do Monday evening
<ronoc> diwic, rodrigo_ also I have installed the new pulse, seems to be fine, the dbus api isn't as advanced as I had hoped
<ronoc> though
<diwic> MootBot, help
<rodrigo_> what is it missing?
<ronoc> rodrigo_, well unless I'm missing something I cannot see the api for sink control, mute, set volume etc
<diwic> [TOPIC] PulseAudio - stable-queue or master?
<diwic> !topic PulseAudio - stable-queue or master?
<ubottu> Error: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :)
<diwic> so I was talking to Lennart last week at Plumber's
<ronoc> how was that ?
<diwic> long story short, going the "master" way is problematic
<ronoc> oh
<diwic> he's planning a major rewrite of some stuff there
<diwic> we can't expect it to be stable enough in time for Natty
<ronoc> okay
<diwic> going the stable-queue is boring ;-)
<rodrigo_> yes :)
<ronoc> when is he expected to get back to working on pulse
<diwic> ronoc, that's difficult to know. I might expect a release of stable-queue within the following two weeks
<diwic> ronoc, other than that, nothing major the coming two months
<diwic> ronoc, that's my qualified guess, Lennart hasn't really promised anything
<ronoc> diwic, okay so is there anything you would like to see from master for natty ?
<rodrigo_> well, then we go with stable :)
<ronoc> does make your life easier :)
<rodrigo_> yes, although a bit boring, as you said
<diwic> ronoc, I'm not really sure. But if you don't have use for the d-bus API anyway there isn't really anything pressuring us to go with master
<rodrigo_> btw, we have 0.9.22 in natty, but only 0.9.21 upstream, are those a git snapshot?
<rodrigo_> ronoc, what do you want the dbus api for?
<ronoc> rodrigo_, diwic I was going to rewrite the pulse communication for the sound server using the dbus api
<ronoc> but as it turns out I think i will rewrite this using the vala bindings
<ronoc> and the async api as I used for lucid and maverick
<ronoc> My C from early last year is a bit all over the place to say the least
<diwic> rodrigo_, both maverick and natty have 1:0.9.22~0.9.21+blahblah
<rodrigo_> ronoc, if you need help on the C part, I can help you
<diwic> rodrigo_, I don't know why the version is so strange, guess we'll have to ask Luke about that
<rodrigo_> although vala is nicer
<rodrigo_> diwic, ok
<diwic> rodrigo_, but we're hoping for a 0.9.22 release based on stable-queue really soon.
<rodrigo_> ok
<ronoc> rodrigo_, thanks, I have it working, its not that complicated but I think i made a meal of it last February, I could rewrite this in vala quite easily i think
<ronoc> might have time this cycle
<diwic> ronoc, why do you want to rewrite C code into vala?
<diwic> ronoc, are you planning improvements or do you just want to switch language because you like vala better?
<ronoc> diwic, because a) the existing code needs major refactoring, b) maintainability C) testing and D) test the vapi bindings for further work
<diwic> topic test
<diwic> ok
<diwic> would that be only for indicator-sound or gnome-volume-control as well?
<rodrigo_> ronoc, in which package/module is that code?
<ronoc> rodrigo_, indicator-sound -> src/pulsemanager.c pulsemanager.h
<ronoc> diwic, just indicator-sound
<diwic> ok
<ronoc> diwic, the plan is to wait for the gnome control panel to land before we know what we want
<rodrigo_> the new gnome-control-center panel?
<diwic> ok, is this gnome 3 control panel?
<rodrigo_> if so, I have master g-c-c running on a dev user, if you want me to look at anything
<diwic> !startmeeting
<rodrigo_> diwic, hmm, I think it's #startmeeting
<diwic> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 07:22. The chair is diwic.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<rodrigo_> at least I've seen #endmeeting
<diwic> #topic pulseaudio - master or stable-queue
<diwic> [topic] pulseaudio - master or stable-queue?
<MootBot> New Topic:  pulseaudio - master or stable-queue?
<diwic> [agreed] to go with stable-queue for the time being as the d-bus API in master wasn't all that ronoc wanted, and since a rewrite is planned on master by Lennart.
<MootBot> AGREED received:  to go with stable-queue for the time being as the d-bus API in master wasn't all that ronoc wanted, and since a rewrite is planned on master by Lennart.
<ronoc> diwic, grand
<diwic> [topic] any audio bugs we should have a closer look at during the coming week?
<MootBot> New Topic:  any audio bugs we should have a closer look at during the coming week?
<diwic> noone?
<diwic> okay, moving on
<ronoc> am I haven't seen any, only the pa-stream-writable failed
<diwic> [topic] anything in particular done in the previous week?
<MootBot> New Topic:  anything in particular done in the previous week?
<ronoc> last week, got two sru's out for lucid and maverick
<diwic> ronoc, for indicator-sound?
<ronoc> and merged my UI natty work into trunk
<rodrigo_> not much from me, was working on other desktop-related stuff
<ronoc> yep
<diwic> ok
<diwic> For my own part, I was at plumber's
<ronoc> today i'm working on a fading mute behaviour
<ronoc> how was it ?
<rodrigo_> we have some bugs though about porting indicator-* stuff to gsettings, gtk3 and gtkbuilder
<ronoc> I must read your report
<rodrigo_> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.tag=gnome3-gtk3
<rodrigo_> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.tag=gnome3-gtkbuilder
<diwic> I learned how to use the wakeup_rt tracer which can be important for tracking down xrun
<rodrigo_> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.tag=gnome3-gsettings
<rodrigo_> these will be fixed as soon as the new stack gets in (it's in a PPA for now)
<ronoc> diwic, whats that
<ronoc> rodrigo_, cool
<diwic> ronoc, basically, if a kernel driver is blocking pulseaudio from being scheduled, it can help to show the troublesome areas
<diwic> (or jack, for that matter)
<ronoc> diwic, good to know
<diwic> ronoc, what's fading mute behaviour?
<ronoc> diwic, when someone chooses mute from the menu, it should fade exponentially the volume and slider to 0, unmuting should restore the slider to its original position
<ronoc> diwic, a bug against indicator-sound for unity
<rodrigo_> oh, that's cool
<ronoc> yup should be pretty easy
<diwic> cool, for absolute coolness you should also lower the sound frequency, but I guess that's much harder :-)
<diwic> the question is whether that should be in PulseAudio or indicator-sound, really
<ronoc> diwic, true
<diwic> you're probably going to have to rewrite that once Lennart gets the volume envelope architecture working
<rodrigo_> I guess PA, so that when you mute from other parts, it works the same
<ronoc> diwic, whats the volume envelope architecture ?
<ronoc> change
<diwic> ronoc, some kind of way to apply a volume envelope to a sound
<diwic> are you familiar with volume envelopes, e g ADSR envelopes?
<ronoc> diwic, yes
<ronoc> diwic, so that should cover what I'm currently doing
<ronoc> but its not a biggie
<diwic> so he merged something from Intel into master but then realized it was broken, so he wants to rip it out, which is part of the major rewrite planned for master
<ronoc> and as you mentioned earlier no date has been set for when his work is to land
<diwic> so as long as you're prepare to rewrite it in a year or two
<ronoc> diwic, sure
<ronoc> the nature of the ever revolving beast ...
<ronoc> evolving even
<diwic> [topic] anything you plan to do in the coming week?
<MootBot> New Topic:  anything you plan to do in the coming week?
<rodrigo_> for me, when the GTK3 stack lands in natty, probably start fixing the indicator-* bugs
<ronoc> when is that rodrigo_ ?
<rodrigo_> ronoc, should be soon, seb128 is going to do it soon
<ronoc> remove dbus-glib bindings and use gdbus
<ronoc> rodrigo_, grand
<ronoc> hopefully this week
<ronoc> and plan other indicator work
<rodrigo_> well, dbus-glib is ok to be used, it's not on the deprecation list, but yes, it's a good idea to move to gdbus asap
<ronoc> rodrigo_, yeah I think the plan is for all indicators, libindicate dependent stuff to be moved over for alpha 1
<rodrigo_> ok
<ronoc> i go on holidays on the 22 so need to do in the next two weeks !
<ronoc> more than likely starting today
<diwic> for myself, I want to process some backlog from the weeks I were at UDS and Plumber's, then try to get started on the apport troubleshooting stuff
<rodrigo_> hey guys, I need to leave now for lunch, are we done? or should I read the backlog later?
<diwic> I think we're done
<ronoc> all good
<rodrigo_> ok, I'll read the backlog later just in case :)
<rodrigo_> bbl
<diwic> cool, see you!
<diwic> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 07:45.
<ronoc> talk later robbiew
<ronoc> talk later rodrigo_
<rodrigo_> oh, btw, gtk3 has just been accepted
<ronoc> oh okay
<ronoc> lunch isn't a bad idea actually
<ronoc> talk afterwards guys
<rodrigo_> later
<mdeslaur> kees, jdstrand, sbeattie: meeting?
<jjohansen> \o
<mdeslaur> whoops...forgot you jjohansen  :)
<jjohansen> sure, I believe you "forgot" me :)
<mdeslaur> hehe
<sbeattie> heh
<kees> \o
<kees> mdeslaur: you start?
<jdstrand> o/
<mdeslaur> sure!
<mdeslaur> so, this week I'm on community, and am working on the long list of mysql CVEs
<mdeslaur> that should keep me busy
<mdeslaur> that's it!
<mdeslaur> jdstrand: your turn
<jdstrand> I plan to test and push out chromium-browser today
<jdstrand> there are 2 other updates I am looking at and may snag
<jdstrand> I hope to get to my natty merges
<mdeslaur> you nasty merges?
<mdeslaur> :)
<jdstrand> there is a libvirt regression for lucid (well it affects maverick and natty too, but the security update didn't introduce it)
<jdstrand> I need to upload that to lucid-- upstream and I are still discussing it
<jdstrand> and finally, I need to dive into the dbus/apparmor stuff
<jdstrand> jjohansen: I've gotten your emails but don't have anything intelligent to say yet
<jjohansen> jdstrand: np
<jdstrand> that's it from me
<jjohansen> its just an initial pass from me
<kees> I'll go?
<jjohansen> I'm sure I'll spew out more as I work on the interface
<kees> I'm going to be trying to drum up support for upstream kernel hardening this week.
<kees> there's some discussions started on oss-security and lkml so far.
<kees> dan's sent some patches, etc
<kees> I got the initial pass at apparmor repackaging done and haven't seen anything horrible yet
<jjohansen> \o/
<kees> now we can move forward more sanely on things like moving the cache directory, etc
<kees> adding bindings
<kees> I've upgraded to natty now as well, and am finding little glitches
<jdstrand> kees: apparmor glitches?
<jjohansen> what kind of glitches?
<kees> I did a few merges last week, will continue with a few more this week
<kees> jdstrand: no, natty glitches.
<jjohansen> ah, yes it is really buggy atm
<jdstrand> I've heard the natty kernel is less than ideal atm
<kees> jdstrand: like, gnome-open suddenly stopped using the correct browser
<kees> yeah, the natty kernel is unusable for me
<kees> network storms using NFS, missing locking, wheee
<kees> I'm on the maverick kernel with natty userspace
<jdstrand> kees: see, you just need to stop using NFS and then the devel release will always work for you :P
<kees> and I've got a few _large_ php audits I need to do
<kees> jdstrand: yeah :(
<kees> that's it from me, sbeattie, your turn
 * jdstrand finds it odd how often NFS gets borked in the dev release
<sbeattie> I'm on triage this week.
<sbeattie> I'll also finish up reviewing the apparmor parser patches jjohansen sent out
<jjohansen> thanks
<sbeattie> and I'm hoping to test the maverick apparmor SRU as well.
<sbeattie> I think that's all from me.
<jdstrand> was it copied yet?
<jjohansen> I'll have some more ugly patches for you this week
<jdstrand> I should add that I will test the apparmor SRUs whenever they hit lucid and maverick proposed
<sbeattie> jdstrand: not sure, I hadn't looked, but I was expecting we'd come out of linaro freeze this week.
<jdstrand> I hope so...
<jdstrand> sbeattie: it doesn't look like it. it is still 10.10.1 which ftbfs on the buildds
<sbeattie> ah
<jdstrand> (10.10.2 is in UNAPPROVED atm)
<jdstrand> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/maverick/+queue?queue_state=1&queue_text=apparmor
<jdstrand> and a new lucid upload is also in UNAPPROVED: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+queue?queue_state=1&queue_text=apparmor
<jdstrand> well, new as of 4 days ago
<sbeattie> cool. I'm also planning to test lucid's SRU whenever it gets approved.
<jdstrand> I followed up with pitti, so now we just need to wait on his response to my followup
 * jdstrand should have really mentioned all the apparmor SRU stuff during his time)
 * jdstrand is done for the second time
<sbeattie> alright, anyone else have anything for the security team? jjohansen?
<jjohansen> hrmmm, well nothing immediate, I am just going to drop more parser patches this week, and setup an apparmor ppa
<jjohansen> containing the newer stuff for testing purposes
<jjohansen> I also expect the interfaces jdstrand needs for dbus to hit this week
<sbeattie> jjohansen: cool, let me know if I can help with setting up the ppa.
<jjohansen> sbeattie: will do, I haven't looked at userspace yet, I will get the kernel up first
<jjohansen> I think I'm done unless you want more details of my crazy plans
<kees> okay, sounds like we're all set. thanks!
<jdstrand> thanks kees :)
<bdrung> now dmb meeting?
<geser> bdrung: didn't start yet
<bdrung> geser: we are four minutes late. let's start it.
<geser> cjwatson, persia, stgraber, cody-somerville, soren: DMB meeting?
 * stgraber waves
<cody-somerville> Isn't it in an hour?
<bdrung> cody-somerville: nope. it's winter time.
<geser> 19:00 UTC is now
<cody-somerville> that it is
 * geser counts 4 DMB members -> quorum
<geser> who chairs?
 * persia is semi-distracted by a plumbing problem and begs off
<stgraber> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 13:10. The chair is stgraber.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<stgraber> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperMembershipBoard/Agenda
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperMembershipBoard/Agenda
<stgraber> [TOPIC] Review of previous action items
<MootBot> New Topic:  Review of previous action items
<stgraber> ok, according to the wiki, we don't have any previous action items, though looking at the log of our last meeting, I see an action for geser to contact CC for help regarding Marco's request
<stgraber> geser: was that an actual action item that we forgot to put on the agenda or did we choose to do something else instead (I don't really remember the details) ?
<geser> stgraber: wasn't that sort of canceled later in the meeting again?
<stgraber> geser: it may have, though if we did, I'm not really sure of where we are regarding Marco's request then
<persia> From the log, I wasn't sure it was conclusive (although I'd like to see something done about Marco at some point relatively soon)
<geser> persia: +1
<stgraber> do we still want to get some help from the CC ? and if so, should we still have geser to bring it to the CC ?
<geser> looking at the meeting log from last meeting we want to move the discussion about how to move on to the mailing list
<geser> I remember writing an e-mail about it but didn't see any reaction to it
<ScottK> What mailing list?
<stgraber> ScottK: developer-membership-board@l.u.c
<ScottK> stgraber: Thanks.
<stgraber> should we try to revive this discussion on the mailing list with the goal of having an answer for the next DMB meeting ?
<persia> Isn't that the just-us list, with devel-permissions@ being the wide-subscription list?
<stgraber> persia: yes, I belive it's
<geser> yes
<ScottK> stgraber: This is a private list?
<bdrung> ScottK: yes. subscription needs to be accepted.
<ScottK> Seems to me like business that should be conducted in public.
<bdrung> lifting the ban on Marco means that he can contribute to Ubuntu through a sponsor. right?
<persia> stgraber, Please give me an action to ask the CC for assistance on this.  It's not clear whether the dispute aspects of the MC were inherited by the DMB (in practice, it hasn't mattered until this issue), so that needs sorting, and I think we've been dragging this out long enough we need help.
<geser> ScottK: we are still at the point where we don't know how to move forward :(
<persia> bdrung, Yes, and only that.  It does not grant him any specific rights to do so.
<stgraber> [action] persia to ask the CC for assistance regarding Marco's request for unban
<MootBot> ACTION received:  persia to ask the CC for assistance regarding Marco's request for unban
<ScottK> geser: I would say that's exactly the time to be working in public.
<bdrung> persia: did he had upload rights before he was banned?
<ScottK> bdrung: No.
<ScottK> Allowing him to contribute via a sponsor is the same as removing all restrictions.
<stgraber> anything else that should be discussed now regarding this matter or should we wait for feedback from the CC ?
<geser> ScottK: cody-somerville mentioned in the last meeting that he prefers not to draw to much attention with making it too public
<persia> bdrung, He's an ubuntu member, and not an ubuntu developer (and never was).  He is not allowed to post to Ubuntu Development mailing lists or IRC channels, except as necessary for administration of his restriction.
<ScottK> geser: That doesn't make it appropriate that it be decided in private.
<persia> geser, Dragging it out as long as we have brings much more attention than any public/private concerns.
<geser> I understand it, I just want to repeat some options which caused that we still don't know how to move forward
<geser> opionions
<persia> ScottK, I agree the decision must not be private.  I'm unconvinced that a council oughtn't be able to determine how to make a decision (or not make it) in private, presuming they do so in a timely manner, and make the decided means of decision public.
<persia> (although in this case, I think the lack of action by the DMB in determining a method is essentially consensus-through-inaction that it ought be someone else's problem (so call on the CC))
<ScottK> persia: I think deciding in private how this will be decided would substantially impair the legitimacy of the result in the minds of at least some community members.
<geser> I guess that the best idea (ask the CC) to break the current dead-lock
<bdrung> i don't see why it's an problem of the DMB. who spoke the ban back then?
<persia> bdrung, The MC.
<ScottK> bdrung: MOTU Council
<geser> and the MC merged into the DMB
<cody-somerville> Its important to me that this not be a popularity contest.
<persia> geser, Well, kinda.  Complex that :)
<bdrung> if the DMB can speak a ban, it should be able to lift the ban.
<geser> as I see the problem, we (the DMB) want some more support (as requested in the ban) before we lift it, but we aren't sure how the support should look like
<ScottK> cody-somerville: I agree with that.
<cody-somerville> And it feels like the requirements for Marco to appeal his ban as set by the former MC make that difficult.
<persia> cody-somerville, How do you mean?
<ScottK> geser: I think putting it that way presupposes the ban should be lifted.  I object to that.
<geser> ScottK: so you see no way for him to lift the ban at all?
<ScottK> geser: It's my preference that it not be lifted.  I don't object to considering the question, but the way I read you comment seemed to me to presuppose an answer, not just ask a question.
<cody-somerville> The requirements for Marco's ban to be lifted are as follows:
<cody-somerville> 1. MOTUs supporting this wish actively.
<cody-somerville> 2. A solid indication of changes in the work style.
<bdrung> i have a concern: how can someone get support from other MOTUs if he/she can't show that he/she has changed?
<cody-somerville> bdrung, bingo. My question too.
<geser> bdrung: congrats, you found the dilema :)
<ScottK> I think there are plenty of MOTU active in areas where he's not banned (most of Debian) for them to form an opinion.
<bdrung> as alternative: a "soft" lift with not everything allowed?
<persia> bdrung, Absolutely not.  There's no useful meaning of "soft".
<bdrung> ok
<stgraber> ok, we only have 25 minutes left for this meeting and still have two applications to review. For now persia has an action to ask the CC for help, so I suggest we carry this discussion to the next meeting.
<persia> Several MOTU (interacting with him in Debian), have commented on his application.
<geser> bdrung: how would that look like and still be different from any other non-MOTU?
<persia> Our decision ends up being one of the following: 1) it's not our problem, 2) he has met the criteria, 3) he has yet to meet the criteria.
 * persia agrees with stgraber
 * micahg wonders why the meeting is 1 hr and not 2
<geser> micahg: because it would be then 3 hours long
<bdrung> geser: good question. maybe irc access to get in contact with motus?
<stgraber> [TOPIC] PerPackageUploader Applications
<MootBot> New Topic:  PerPackageUploader Applications
<cody-somerville> maybe we should just lift the ban and see what happens?
<geser> cody-somerville: I'm pretty sure ScottK will object to that idea
<stgraber> mtaylor: around ?
<bdrung> lift the ban for X month and evaluate it then?
<persia> cody-somerville, No. That's outside our role.  We just have to determine whether he met the criteria.
<mtaylor> stgraber: yup
<persia> Anyway, we're on a new topic
<stgraber> mtaylor: According to the wiki you apply for PPU rights for haildb and pandora-build
<mtaylor> stgraber: yes indeed
<stgraber> though you already seem to have upload rights on pandora-build
<stgraber> and haildb doesn't seem to be in the archive ?
<mtaylor> stgraber: oh really? great on pandora-build ... haildb should have just been synced
<stgraber> stgraber@castiana:~/data/code/ubuntu-archive-tools$ python edit_acl.py query -p mordred | grep pandora-build
<stgraber> Archive Upload Rights for mordred: archive 'primary', source package 'pandora-build'
<mtaylor> excellent. that makes that easier
<mtaylor> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/haildb
<geser> does someone remember if we vote on this apps the last time? (and this is just to setup the permissions)
<stgraber> geser: based on what I can find on the wiki, he already had PPU rights on a few packages and wants it extended to these two other packages
<stgraber> http://pastebin.com/85cZ75Fe
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://pastebin.com/85cZ75Fe
<bdrung> i though he wants upload right for all apps listed in his application.
<stgraber> bdrung: he already has, for all of thems except haildb (which is probably in the NEW queue at the moment)
<geser> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/devel-permissions/2010-June/000076.html
<geser> the results of his last application
<mtaylor> sorry for the confusion - it's an ammended application - last time haildb wasn't in the archive yet. (and I thought the same for pandora-build, but I'm obviously wrong about that)
<persia> haildb was source-NEWed, but no binaries are yet available.
<bdrung> ? https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/haildb/2.3.1-1
<geser> mtaylor: have you DM upload rights for haildb in Debian or upload through a sponsor?
<mtaylor> geser: upload through a sponsor
<mtaylor> been meaning to apply for DM for it
<stgraber> I see that libhaildb was already part of the previous application and from what I can see is the binary package built from haildb. I guess we didn't vote on this one last time because it didn't exist in the archive and so we wouldn't have been able to set the PPU for it
<cjwatson> argh, sorry, I had timezone confusion
<geser> wasn't it more of not enough records on working on this package?
<stgraber> geser: I'd be surprised considering he's the one listed in every single changelog entry in the debian changelog
<stgraber> geser: http://packages.debian.org/changelogs/pool/main/h/haildb/current/changelog.txt
<geser> which are all after June when we processed the application
<cjwatson> haildb sounds like an easy one to add to mtaylor's list to me, considering
<stgraber> geser: ok, so the package wasn't even in Debian at the time ?
<geser> stgraber: no, looks it got NEWed in Debian 5 days ago
<cjwatson> indeed
<stgraber> ok, any other question or should we just go ahead and vote to add haildb to mtaylor's PPU list ?
<bdrung> go ahead
 * geser has no questions
<cjwatson> go
<stgraber> [VOTE] Add haildb to mtaylor's PPU list
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Add haildb to mtaylor's PPU list.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<stgraber> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from stgraber. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<bdrung> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from bdrung. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<cjwatson> +q
<geser> +1
<persia> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from geser. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<cjwatson> er
<MootBot> +1 received from persia. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<cjwatson> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from cjwatson. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
<cjwatson> (guess what keyboard I'm using)
<cody-somerville> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from cody-somerville. 6 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 6
<stgraber> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 6 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 6
<bdrung> cjwatson: it's not the NEO layout ;)
<stgraber> cjwatson: should I give you the action of actually doing the change ?
<cjwatson> sure
<mtaylor> thanks all!
<stgraber> [ACTION] cjwatson to add haildb to mtaylor's PPU list
<MootBot> ACTION received:  cjwatson to add haildb to mtaylor's PPU list
<stgraber> [TOPIC] MOTU Applications
<MootBot> New Topic:  MOTU Applications
<stgraber> micahg: around ?
<micahg> stgraber: yes
<stgraber> hmm, only 6 minutes left ... is there any meeting schedule in #ubuntu-meeting after DMB ?
<stgraber> *scheduled
<bdrung> no (according to the fridge)
 * ajmitch wouldn't think it'd take more than 6 minutes to approve micahg 
<geser> nothing on the fridge (not even the current DMB meeting)
<persia> micahg, You say you don't like "The ability to easy switch between archive versions and PPA versions of select packages.", but you don't list any thoughts about fixing that.  Are you able to do so here?
<micahg> persia: I was thinking of some type of selector in software center (a plugin that helped with pinning)
<persia> So, is the problem that you can switch, or is the problem that it's not easy?
<bdrung> micahg: is pinning enough? switching means to have a way for downgrading.
<ari-tczew> micahg is building his career by reporting on another folks from IRC rofl
<micahg> persia: that's it's not easy to switch back and forth
<bdrung> micahg: are you aware of ppa-purge?
<cjwatson> there's a command-line tool to do it, I think, which suggests that building UI pieces might not be so far off
<micahg> bdrung: in some cases yes, but not all
<micahg> bdrung: yes
<cjwatson> I think ppa-purge is PPA granularity rather than package granularity though
<micahg> cjwatson: right
<cjwatson> mvo might have some thoughts on the UI side
<persia> micahg, A package selector UI seems easy enough: how could one address the bit about maintainer scripts not being guaranteed safe for downgrades?
<micahg> persia: well, there would have to be some way for a package to opt-in to this only in cases where it would be safe
<micahg> possibly a field in d/control?
<persia> Packages in PPAs declaring that they are suitable for safe install/remove?  How can we trust that when we can't necessarily trust PPA uploaders in general?
<bdrung> isn't it better to make packages downgradable?
<persia> bdrung, Heh, sure, but that's *hard*, because of how maintainer scripts work.
<cjwatson> OTOH it's relatively rare for the sorts of changes in PPAs to be downgrade issues anyway
<persia> True
<micahg> persia: that's a more general problem and would have to do with the concept of *blessed* PPAs which seems to be less likely as time goes on
<cjwatson> persia: if you can't trust the PPA then it might have failed when you switched *to* it
<bdrung> maybe having a fallback if the downgrade doesn't work?
<persia> cjwatson, Ah, that works.
<cjwatson> so worrying about what happens when you switch away sort of seems like stable door and hose
<cjwatson> horse
 * persia has no more questions.
<bdrung> micahg: interested in working on the sponsors queue?
 * ScottK wants to be sure to through in a big +1 for micahg (my attention is needed elsewhere ATM) - I've interacted with him quite a bit at UDS and since and am convinced he'd be a great MOTU.
<micahg> bdrung: yes, but my time for the next month is limited
<stgraber> ready to vote ?
<bdrung> yes
<geser> micahg: why didn't you manage to find enough DMB members a UDS-M to process your application? :)
<cjwatson> that was mostly our fault
<stgraber> [VOTE] Micah Gersten's application for MOTU
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Micah Gersten's application for MOTU.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<bdrung> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from bdrung. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<cjwatson> we did assemble but were inquorate
<persia> Entirely our fault
<persia> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from persia. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<cjwatson> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from cjwatson. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<stgraber> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from stgraber. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<geser> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from geser. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
<stgraber> persia, cjwatson and I were in ready for the meeting at UDS, though soren was somewhere between his hotel and UDS and cody-somerville was probably still sleeping :)
<ari-tczew> I don't trust that he will work on clean up sponsors queue
<stgraber> cody-somerville: ?
<cody-somerville> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from cody-somerville. 6 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 6
<stgraber> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 6 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 6
<stgraber> [TOPIC] Select a chair for the next meeting
<MootBot> New Topic:  Select a chair for the next meeting
<highvoltage> welcome to MOTU, micahg!
<stgraber> any volunteer ?
<bdrung> congrats micahg
<stgraber> oh, and congrats micahg !
<micahg> highvoltage: thanks, and thanks to all the DMB members and ScottK
<persia> I'll volunteer.  I've missed it enough times.
<stgraber> [ACTION] persia to chair next DMB meeting
<MootBot> ACTION received:  persia to chair next DMB meeting
<stgraber> anything else for this meeting ?
<bdrung> can the chair listed on the agenda?
<cjwatson> normally is
 * micahg is just curious, are the meetings planned to be 1hr now?
<persia> They were always supposed to be so.
<stgraber> bdrung: when we've got one, it usually is
<cjwatson> 1hr is usual if we can manage it, but it depends ...
<geser> micahg: they we always 1 hour
<stgraber> *he
<geser> were*
<micahg> geser: ah, ok
<cjwatson> sometimes they run long if there's need and if there's nothing preventing it
<geser> micahg: if we finish in 1 hour is a different question :)
<bdrung> back to the Marco: can we get comments from all people who are working with Marco?
 * bdrung fails in forming correct sentences.
<stgraber> ok, I guess we're done for what had to be discussed in this meeting
<stgraber> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 14:12.
<cjwatson> re Marco, I think the action to work with the CC is the next step there - we can ask them to help with that
<bdrung> ok
<cjwatson> and, since I wasn't here at the start, welcome bdrung :)
<stgraber> bdrung: I'd also suggest you read through the previous meeting logs as it feels like things we already discussed in the past. For now, I think it's best to wait for the CC and re-discuss in another meeting.
<geser> bdrung: the aren't probably many as he is banned from working on Ubuntu dev, you would need to find those who are also active in Debian and see his work there
 * cjwatson goes back to trying to convince a toddler to GO TO BED
<bdrung> thanks cjwatson
<ari-tczew> I'm not up-to-dated... who win - Laney or bdrung ?
<cjwatson> bdrung
<ari-tczew> love it!
<ari-tczew> (that was not ironic)
<cjwatson> by 8 votes or so I think
<ari-tczew> what is the number of all votes?
<cjwatson> low turnout, not that I'm one to talk since I forgot to vote :(
<geser> ari-tczew: see my mail with the results to ubuntu-devel-announce
<bdrung> the participation was very low (~ 50 votes)
<geser> cjwatson: I wanted to mail a reminder after UDS but forgot it myself :( (to mail the reminder)
<geser> IIRC 55 votes of 153
<bdrung> stgraber: in which meetings was marco a topic? 2010-09-27 and others?
<geser> bdrung: the last 2-3 meetings
<bdrung> geser: do we have a link list to all previous meeting logs?
<geser> no, perhaps I should do one like we had for MC
<bdrung> geser: finding the old logs is hard. especially if the schedule is changed
<geser> true
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-11-09
<NCommander> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 06:58. The chair is NCommander.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<ogra_ac> bah
<ogra_ac> you're to early
<rsalveti> NCommander: and the meeting date is wrong
<ogra_ac> that too
<rsalveti> you created it as 1009
<rsalveti> unless you think the release is tomorrow, you're wrong
<NCommander> ugh
<rsalveti> :-)
<ogra_ac> hehe
<NCommander> davidm: I'm here :-P, no need to call :-P
<davidm> Yep, just saw that, had phone to ear
<NCommander> I'm just waiting for GrueMaster to rise
<NCommander> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2010/20101109
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2010/20101109
<ogra_ac> hmpf, note to self: starting update-manager right before a meeting isnt a clever idea
<NCommander> There are no action items or special items from the last meeting
<ogra_ac> when was that anyway
<NCommander> ogra_ac: the 2nd, but only davidm and GrueMaster was there
<davidm> Last week
<NCommander> most of us were in transit for something
<davidm> I ran it since no one besides Gruemaster showed up
<davidm> And I like fast meetings
<davidm> Speaking of which.....
<NCommander> [topic] Standing Itmes
<MootBot> New Topic:  Standing Itmes
<NCommander> [link] http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/natty/canonical-mobile.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/natty/canonical-mobile.html
<NCommander> [link] http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/natty/canonical-mobile-natty-alpha-1.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/natty/canonical-mobile-natty-alpha-1.html
<NCommander> All my specs expect spice seeds have their work items in properly. We don't have any notes for spice ATM (waiting for IS to post the audio logs of UDS to recreate them)
<NCommander> once those are done, I'll write that spec, and get the work items up
<rsalveti> I'm finishing reviewing and finalizing the specs today
<NCommander> Ugh
<NCommander> argh
<NCommander> It looks like since my specs didn't make it to approved, they weren't counted togethers the workitem tracker
<ogra> hey
<ogra> no hurry
<ogra> spec deadline is the 18th
<NCommander> so the trendline is completely screwed up. again.
 * NCommander bangs his head on the desk
<ogra> also the WI tracker has to be changed a lot
<rsalveti> but we all want to do some "real" work soon :-)
<ogra> sure, just go ahead
<NCommander> [action] NCommander to track down why his specs aren't on the tracker and to have that fixed
<ogra> still though, the tracker points to the wrong team name etc
<MootBot> ACTION received:  NCommander to track down why his specs aren't on the tracker and to have that fixed
<ogra> NCommander, leave that to me
<NCommander> [action] ogra to take previous action
<MootBot> ACTION received:  ogra to take previous action
<ogra> the tracker has to be rewriotten
<ogra> we are not mobile anymore etc
<ogra> i haver to work with pitti on that
<ogra> *have
<rsalveti> true
<ogra> nomenclature changed too
<NCommander> right
<ogra> its on my TODO for this week
<NCommander> on, let's move on
<rsalveti> will also change the ml?
<NCommander> [topic] Kernel Status (cooloney, mpoirier, lag)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Kernel Status (cooloney, mpoirier, lag)
<ogra> no idea, up to davidm
<ogra> NCommander, we dont have kernel guys atm
<rsalveti> it'd be better to have ubuntu-arm instead of mobile, so we avoid questions regarding eeepc :-)
<ogra> pointless topic
<rsalveti> until they start shipping arm cpus
<ogra> hehe
<lag> cooloney is still with you
<NCommander> k
<ogra> rsalveti, well, as i said, up to davidm
<rsalveti> sure :-)
<NCommander> GrueMaster: any point to doing QA status?
<ogra> lag, true, but not around atm
 * NCommander guesses not
<lag> Nope, I believe he's in Lex
<rsalveti> cooloney did some work this week
<ogra> lets do a short spec overview
<ogra> who has what etc
<NCommander> [topic] Specification Overview
<MootBot> New Topic:  Specification Overview
 * NCommander is a fan of that
<GrueMaster> No QA status at this time.
<ogra> for anything else the topics dont suit well
<ogra> oh, and probably discuss A1
<NCommander> I currently have improved ARM subarch support + userland subarch support, and spice seeds once we get the session notes recovered and the spec writen.
<ogra> https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-arm-n-public-panda-ppa-build-cluster
<ogra> https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/appdevs-arm-n-minimal-preinstalled-developer-images
<ogra> https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-arm-n-jasper-rewrite
<ogra> https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-arm-n-arm-thin-clients
<davidm> ogra, the image for the PPA build system, will you get that done before A1 or is that an A2 task for you?
<ogra> these are my four
<ogra> davidm, A1
<davidm> OK thanks'
<ogra> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NattyReleaseSchedule
<ogra> for anyone who doesnt have it
 * ogra waits for more spec links 
<rsalveti> https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/multimedia-arm-gles-in-ubuntu
<rsalveti> https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-arm-n-handle-core-boot-files-update
<rsalveti> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/multimedia-arm-n-set-top-box
<rsalveti> https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/packageselection-arm-n-more-stable-vm-solution-for-arm
<rsalveti> my four
 * ogra has some items on the set-top-box one
<ogra> iirc
<NCommander> https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-arm-n-userland-subarch-detection
<NCommander> https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-arm-natty-improved-subarch-detection
<rsalveti> we'll all end up having work items in different blueprints :-)
<ogra> yep
<ogra> motre than last time
<ogra> which is good :)
<NCommander> https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-arm-n-seed-spices
<GrueMaster> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-arm-n-customcheckboxtests
<rsalveti> yup :-)
<ogra> is persia with us ?
<davidm> ogra, I have pretty much taken over panda-ppa-build-cluster.   But any assistance with wiki spec gladly accepted ;-P
<ogra> davidm, i'll do it :)
<davidm> rsalveti, I added the paste notes to the botton
<rsalveti> davidm: cool, was going to do that, but didn't know if I should put at the wiki or the blueprint itself
<rsalveti> thanks anyway
<davidm> I put it at the bottom of the wiki for now
<davidm> Seemed to be a good place
<davidm> persia, ??
<NCommander> -ENOPERSIA
<ogra> rsalveti, the blueprint should just have WIs
<ogra> all the rest goes into the wiki
<rsalveti> ok, because I saw many blueprints with notes in it
<rsalveti> mostly linaro ones
<ogra> well, for dumping the notes the whiteboard is an easy place
<ogra> but during cleanup and drafting it should be moved in the proper place
<rsalveti> ok
<ogra> also note that linaro might just handle it differently
<rsalveti> yeah
<ogra> better to look at ubuntu specs ;)
<nigelb> !info python-gtk2
<ubottu> python-gtk2 (source: pygtk): Python bindings for the GTK+ widget set. In component main, is optional. Version 2.21.0-0ubuntu1 (maverick), package size 721 kB, installed size 2628 kB
<nigelb> err, sorry
<NCommander> anyone else got any other specs to post?
<ogra> apart from persias we should have all
 * NCommander has a pretty good idea at this point who's doing what for the forseable future
<NCommander> then I'm moving on unless someone else has something
<ogra> we will get a new employee soon
<ogra> please think about WIs he can take
 * NCommander has nothing for FTBFS status, and there are no images yet so ...
<ogra> from your specs
<rsalveti> what he's good at?
<ogra> images failed today, havent checked why
<NCommander> ogra: oh, crontabs are running?
<GrueMaster> Do we still want omap & dove images to build?
<ogra> rsalveti, everything but dont overload him ;)
 * NCommander didn't see a build failure image this morning
<ogra> GrueMaster, omap -> yes, dove -> no i guess
<rsalveti> ogra: :-)
<ogra> NCommander, you should have mail
<NCommander> GrueMaster: Dove is dead. omap3 is in the hands in Ubuntu ARM, and omap4 is maintained by Canonical
<ogra> davidm, can you confirm ? no more dove in natty, right ?
<davidm> correct no more dove in natty
<GrueMaster> We'll probably kickstart it again mid February-March.
<ogra> for reference: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2010-November/031952.html
<ogra> that applies to omap3 currently
<NCommander> GrueMaster: don't make me come and stab you
<ogra> waiting for solutions from kernel and linaro teams
<davidm> GrueMaster, I doubt it, the kernel we have access to is too far behind for natty
<ogra> we might have a slight prob for A1 btw, we need livecd-rootfs to work for the preinstalled ones and i think cjwatson wont focus on live images (usually he looks only at alternate for A1)
<NCommander> ogra: I'll keep on eye on it for A1
<ogra> so that might need some heavy lifting on our side
<NCommander> [action] NCommander to supervise pre-installed omap4 images for Alpha 1
<ogra> to have the deps and seeds right
<MootBot> ACTION received:  NCommander to supervise pre-installed omap4 images for Alpha 1
<NCommander> ^- standing item until Alpha 1
<ogra> as well as ftbfs
<ogra> NCommander, thanks
<ogra> the ftbfs list looks awful atm
<NCommander> ogra: I've got access to GrueMaster's pandas, so I can do TI work again.
<ogra> though thats mainly kde/QT related
<NCommander> ogra: not as bad as in cycles past TBH
<ogra> well, but again qreal issues as far as i can see
<ogra> the always reoccuring issue
<ogra> NCommander, how about finally applying the upstream fix to it ?
<NCommander> ogra: the one we can't fix without breaking the ABI of Qt :-/
<Riddell> where are qreal issues?
<ogra> davidm, ^^^
<NCommander> ogra: upstream won't move until Qt5
<ogra> any words on that ?
<ogra> Riddell, armel as usual
<ogra> Riddell, we have that every release
<davidm> NCommander, I thought upstream wnated the change??
<NCommander> ogra: sometime in the future. Not even Nokia knows when based off feedback from last Akademy
<NCommander> davidm: yeah, but they can't until they break the ABI in general
<ogra> well, they asked for it at the brussels UDS
<NCommander> ogra: Linaro asked for it
<ogra> and its really a non issue since its armel only
<davidm> NCommander, can you please verify that upstream does not want it now?
<ogra> NCommander, no
<ogra> NCommander, i was at the discussion between asac and upstream
<davidm> It is really creating havoc here
<Riddell> ogra: I haven't seen any new qreal issues.  there's the issue with CXXFLAGS += -Wa,-mimplicit-it=thumb
<NCommander> davidm: we can not break it down here independently of upstream. If upstream wants it broken, they need to fix it upstream, then we get it via normal updates
<ogra> Riddell, hmm, that might be a new one, usually NCommander puts in a few weeks to adjust his armel patches per app though
<ogra> which costs a lot of time
<NCommander> ogra: that's a toolchian issue because we had a patch in previously to make that the default
<ogra> and upstream aksed to just switch TQ on armel for fixing that upstream
<NCommander> ogra: doko kicked it out since upstream rejected it.
 * NCommander had a discussion with doko on this very issue during UDS.
<davidm> NCommander, can you please verify with upstream if they want/will take the change.
<ogra> NCommander, on the upstream QT qreal changes ?
 * ogra wonders how thats related to doko
<Riddell> the CXXFLAGS is related to doko
<ogra> right, but thats fixed
<NCommander> ogra: CXXFLAGS was doko, and no it wasn't, it was worked around.
 * ogra doesnt really care about stuff that has a fix/workaround already 
<Riddell> most packages still fail to build on arm because of the CXXFLAGS issue, been waiting for doko to show up to discuss it
<ogra> what i care about is NCommander  wasting workdays on the same issue each release
<ogra> adjusting the same patches every round
<ogra> while upstream asked us to fix it with an upstream patch
<NCommander> ogra: and we can't fix it upstream
<ogra> we can
<NCommander> I'm not repeating this disucssion. We do it every cycle
<ogra> just patch QT properly and be done
<NCommander> ogra: how do you suggest we sanely break Qt's ABI
<NCommander> I'm not doing it
<ogra> we only break it on armel
<ogra> and given that we rebuild the whole distro, thats a non issue
<NCommander> I am *NOT* having this discussion again
<NCommander> I will post the links to every meeting we have discusssed it
<NCommander> Because its the same argument going around
<NCommander> And I have no interest wasting meeting time discussing it again when nothing has changed
 * ogra prefers wasting 1h meeting time to two manweeks of work 
<ogra> i still fail to see the reason to not do it
<davidm> Next please
<NCommander> [topic] Any Other Business
<MootBot> New Topic:  Any Other Business
<NCommander> Going once
<NCommander> Going twice
<NCommander> Going three times
<NCommander> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 07:37.
 * apw limps in
 * ogasawara waves
<kamal> o/
 * cking here o/
<cking> apw, broken foot?
 * smb /O\
 * ericm|ubuntu here o/
<jjohansen> \o
 * ogra_ac lurks
<ericm|ubuntu> \0/
<SergioMeneses> hi
<cooloney> yup
<sconklin> here!
<bjf> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 11:01. The chair is bjf.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<bjf> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<bjf> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Maverick
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Maverick
<bjf> [TOPIC] ARM Status (lag)
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM Status (lag)
<cooloney> ericm|ubuntu: you first, lady
<bjf> cooloney, ^?
<bjf> heh
<ericm|ubuntu> no problem, simple word - nothing going on with Marvell dove
<ericm|ubuntu> they've shipped their LSP 5.3.6, I'll talk with tgardner offline for that
<bjf> #
<bjf> # NOTE: '..' indicates that you are finished with your input.
<bjf> #
<cooloney> for ti-omap4, we just fixed a config issue bug 672635
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 672635 in linux-ti-omap4 (Ubuntu) "enable CONFIG_SCSI_MULTI_LUN" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/672635
<cooloney> tim pushed and uploaded
<cooloney> that's for maverick
<bjf> cooloney, is that it?
<cooloney> and some status from mpoirier
<cooloney> * Texas Instruments (ti-omap)
<cooloney>  * PATCH    : PowerSGX patch:
<cooloney>               .Spent a lot of time looking at powerSGX
<cooloney>               .Studied 3 implementation: Android, Meego and rcn-ee
<cooloney>               .The Meego patch was folded in linaro-linux-2.6.35 but got rejected -> not upstreamable
<cooloney>               .To be accepted, the patch would have to be nursed through the iteration process -> this is a full time assignment
<cooloney>               .Going from ubuntu to linaro for kernel maintenance mandate that submitted patches be upstreamable
<cooloney> for me, i'm working some upstream OMAP DSS2 patches. that's not for our ubuntu release
<cooloney> yeah, that's it
<cooloney> i'm done
<apw> .. ?
<bjf> [TOPIC] Release Metrics (JFo)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Release Metrics (JFo)
<apw> ENO-JFO
<bjf> ack
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: Kernel Configuration Review (apw)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-config-review
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: Kernel Configuration Review (apw)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-config-review
<apw> Configuration changes are defined and approved.  Work has not yet started on applying these, should hit before natty-alpha-1.
<apw> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: Enhancements to the firmware test suite (cking)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-firmware-test-suite-enhancements
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: Enhancements to the firmware test suite (cking)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-firmware-test-suite-enhancements
<cking> Changes to fwts (natty development branch):
<cking>  * Added more intelligence in backlight issues found in klog
<cking>  * add --show-tests-full option
<cking>  * add --lp-tags to print out LP tags when scanning klog errors
<cking>  * make -p (show progress) default
<cking>  * add -q, --quiet option
<cking>  * add --dumpfile to load tables from acpidump and fwts --dump output
<cking>  * prototyped ACPI method execution for sanity checks and mutex state checks
<cking> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: Handling of Deviations from Standard Kernels (smb)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-stable-frankenkernel-maintenance
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: Handling of Deviations from Standard Kernels (smb)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-stable-frankenkernel-maintenance
<smb> Err
<bjf> :-)
<smb> Not much to add for the moment
<smb> Working on the announcement scripts
<smb> And I guess someone needs to do the documentation at some point...
<smb> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: Review of the Stable Maintenance Process (sconklin)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-stable-process-review
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: Review of the Stable Maintenance Process (sconklin)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-stable-process-review
<sconklin> During UDS, discussions were held which resulted in the adoption of a new process for release of stable kernel updates. Details about why this was needed and how it will be implemented have been committed to the Ubuntu wiki here:
<sconklin> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kernel/StableReleaseCadence
<sconklin> It looks like the first official cycle may start on Nov 18th, but this is still indiscussion
<sconklin> ..
<tgardner> sconklin, any progress on the testing front?
<sconklin> No
<tgardner> how can we start a cycle without a prototype of the process?
<bjf> maybe we should invite someone from testing to this meeting?
<apw> skaet, any update on the testing ?
<sconklin> tgardner: good question. We're awaiting our first information from the people responsible for testing
<tgardner> hmm
<apw> bjf, i think we need an action on steve to get one of them here for the next meeting till its resolved
<ogasawara> I'd sent email yesterday poking hw cert about the testing.  They're still trying to run a full smoke test of the kernel in -proposed to see how long it takes.
 * cking wonders why he pulled the finger out on saturday to do some testing when we are blocked en-route by process
 * apw wonders why cking did that when the deadline wathursday
<bjf> [ACTION] sconklin to make sure someone from testing attends the weekly kernel meeting :-)
<MootBot> ACTION received:  sconklin to make sure someone from testing attends the weekly kernel meeting :-)
<tgardner> ..
<sconklin> we're going to slip the Thursday requirement for verification testing
<apw> why so ?
<bjf> apw, without the full process in place should we go ahead and revert patches?
<apw> (i suspect this is a #u-k discussion)
<sconklin> Because we have not officially begun the new cycle, and have no definition of the testing process.
<apw> lets take this offline then ..
<sconklin> ..
<tgardner> sconklin, well, you have announced that we're gonna do it on a certain date.
<sconklin> tgardner: that's correct, an I can just as easily announce that we're slipping
<bjf> apw, i thought thats what this meeting was about / for (this kind of discussion)
<apw> oh ok, then i think if you start by slipping the verification revert
<apw> then people will think they can always assume you will
<apw> sets a bad precident
<sconklin> That announcement was predicated on the assurance that we would have testing results by the end of last week
<skaet> apw, sconklin - haven't got an update - but not sure I'm on the official list to get one.
<apw> the longer we soak with only the patches we are going to release with the more
<apw> happy [sic] the SRU team will be
<bjf> skaet, if your not on the "official" list who would be?
<tgardner> sconklin, I think we should go ahead and prototype that part of the process at least, despite not being able to get official testing.
<sconklin> I also have no problem dropping patches as announced, but we are feeling the process out
<apw> sconklin, testing is meant to occur in the second week after the reversions, right?  so testing will occur after this thursday for the official release
<skaet> bjf, sconklin is who victorp is communicating with.
<cking> only the patches that are not tested?
<apw> cking, right the un 'verified' bugs
<cking> cool
<sconklin> ok, so as announced, we wi can drop all unverified patches on Friday, and then we're in a straight-up testing hold.
<tgardner> sconklin, ack
<sconklin> works for me
<cking> and if testing fails to occur, we are effectively roadblocked?
<apw> cking, we are in a bad place.
<bjf> so no changes can be made to the repos until we've reverted patches?
<tgardner> cking, we're no worse off then we were before, e.g., crowd sourcing
<sconklin> bjf: effectively, yes.
<smb> bjf, That probably is done on a side branch
<bjf> smb, what good does it do to do them on a side branch?
<sconklin> agreed, we just need to choose a naming convention for the "next" branch
<sconklin> and we will have a merge window for it
<smb> I was thinking along starting a branch from the upload and revert
<smb> then that can be merged back to master
<sconklin> no reverts, we will remove the patches and force-update the master branch
<skaet> how about sru-candidate?
<smb> sconklin, I would not do that, but its your decision
<apw> skaet, in that week we are essentially on hold waiting on verification
<sconklin> Too much clutter, and I'm afraid it will break all the tools which parse changelogs
<bjf> sconklin, if we revert, we can comment why it was reverted (failure to verify)
<sconklin> bjf: that will be documented in the bug
<bjf> also, if we are adding patches to a "next" branch, do we do a "pre-proposed" from that?
<skaet> apw, yah - and from yesterday's probing, it doesn't seem clear on the verification side the handoff between the cert and QA for running tests.
<sconklin> can anyone tell me how many tools there are which parse kernel changlelogs, in and out of the kernel team?
<apw> what about the debian changelog
<apw> won't that show the patches going in only if you do not revert, even though they are not in the tree ?
<smb> sconklin, I just fear that you are causing pain by force-updating and rewriting a sort of pushed tree
<sconklin> we regenerate the changelog. We simply make the patches dissappear.
<apw> sconklin, i am not sure the archive admins will accept that, as it does not reflect correct history
<smb> apw, I think at the moment it might be a case where apply and revert are done in two uploads
<sconklin> The basic assumption I'm operating under is that anything after a tag is mutable
<smb> apw, That is probably not handled as you would expect in the changelog
<apw> right, which this is by definition
<smb> sconklin, But you would do that if you remove patches from before
<smb> wheras revert does not change the past
<sconklin> smb: do what?
<bjf> correct, the patches you are "disappearing" have been "tagged"
<smb> sconklin, you sounded like using rebase -i to remove patches
<tgardner> sconklin, lets take this offline. its a process issue thats not really relevant to the overall testing issue
<bjf> as part of a -proposed upload
<sconklin> smb: but we have numerous tools which parse the changelog, sch as those used by archive admins, and those tools do not understand reverts as far as I know
<apw> sconklin, a revert is just another patch on top
<apw> they do not need to be understood per-see
<sconklin> I understand that, but it leaves the original patch and the buglink
<apw> we might wish to drop the bug link ...
<smb> sconklin, apw Lets discuss this later on
<apw> ack
<apw> ..
<sconklin> yes, we'll tackle this later
<sconklin> ..
<bjf> smb, apw, tgardner, sconklin, when and where because I want to be there
<smb> #ubuntu-kernel
<skaet> I'll be there too.
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: Ubuntu Kernel Delta Review (apw)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-ubuntu-delta-review
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: Ubuntu Kernel Delta Review (apw)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-ubuntu-delta-review
<apw> Work has started on updating the Ubuntu drivers.  Work centers on updating aufs2 which is a blocker for (performant) live-cds.  Pulled in an experimental version of aufs2 for testing in v2.6.36.  Also pulled this up to v2.6.37-rc1 and did some testing.  Looking good so far.
<apw> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: Kernel Version and Flavouts (apw)
<bjf> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-version-and-flavours
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: Kernel Version and Flavouts (apw)
<apw> Pulled the ports meta-packages into the main master branch to simplify ongoing maintenance.
<apw> ..
<apw> PS: the title here is spelt wrong
<bjf> my bad
<bjf> [TOPIC] Status: Natty (apw)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Status: Natty (apw)
<apw> Natty has just moved over to a v2.6.37-rc1 based kernel.  Stability is unexpectedly high.  Work is ongoing to get aufs2 working again so we can have performant live-cds shortly; likely in the next upload.  Blueprints are mostly up to date with initial work items and work is just beginning on our deliverables.
<apw> Anyone who has not yet added milestones for their work items are likely to find I have assigned them one.  You may well find that means your entire natty workload is now scheduled for natty-alpha-1.  Please review these and split them out as necessary.
<apw> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Security & bugfix kernels - Maverick/Lucid/Karmic/Hardy/Dapper (sconklin)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Security & bugfix kernels - Maverick/Lucid/Karmic/Hardy/Dapper (sconklin)
<sconklin> ||                         || Upd./Sec.     || Proposed      || TiP || Verified    ||
<sconklin> || Dapper: Kernel          || 2.6.15-55.89  ||               ||     ||             ||
<sconklin> || Hardy:  Kernel          || 2.6.24-28.80  ||               ||     ||             ||
<sconklin> || =       LRM             || 2.6.24.18-28.7||               ||     ||             ||
<sconklin> || Karmic: Kernel          || 2.6.31-22.68  ||               ||     ||             ||
<sconklin> || =       mvl-dove        || 2.6.31-214.30 || 2.6.31-214.32 ||     ||             ||
<sconklin> || =       ec2             || 2.6.31-307.21 ||               ||     ||             ||
<sconklin> || Lucid:  Kernel          || 2.6.32-25.45  || 3.6.32-26.46  || 14  ||  6 / 24     ||
<sconklin> || =       LBM             || 2.6.32-25.24  || 2.6.32-26.25  ||     ||             ||
<sconklin> || =       mvl-dove        || 2.6.32-209.25 || 2.6.32-211.27 ||     ||             ||
<sconklin> || =       fsl-imx51       || 2.6.31-608.19 || 2.6.31-608.20 ||     ||             ||
<sconklin> || =       ec2             || 2.6.32-309.18 ||               ||     ||             ||
<sconklin> || = lts-backport-maverick || 2.6.35.22.34  ||               ||     ||             ||
<sconklin> || Maverick: Kernel        || 2.6.35-22.35  || 3.6.35-23.37  || 14  ||  12 / 30    ||
 * ogra_ac wonders about the maverick arm kernels in that list
 * cooloney still is waiting for the list to finish
<tgardner> maybe sconklin got booted
<sconklin> I'm here, looks good to me
<sconklin> even including the final ..
<ogra_ac> mvl-dove, omap3 and omap4 should be in maverick
<bjf> not seeing it
<tgardner> sconklin, are ther more then one Maverick entry?
<smb> Me neither
<ogra_ac> wheer omap3 is built from the ubuntu tree as is
<sconklin> || Maverick: Kernel        || 2.6.35-22.35  || 3.6.35-23.37  || 14  ||  12 / 30    ||
<sconklin> || =       mvl-dove        || 2.6.32-410.27 ||               ||     ||             ||
<sconklin> || =       ti-omap4        || 2.6.35-903.18 ||               ||     ||             ||
<tgardner> much better
<sconklin> That's all I have for Maverick
<ogra_ac> :)
<apw> we didn't get the last two lines
<sconklin> whew
<sconklin> ..
<sconklin> oh, and then you also missed:
<sconklin>  * The Karmic proposed kernel has been moved to updates.
<sconklin>  * Jaunty is no longer supported
<apw> indeed
<sconklin> ..
<apw> RIP jaunty
<bjf> [TOPIC] Open Discussion or Questions: Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open Discussion or Questions: Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
<apw> o/
<ogra_ac> o/
<bjf> apw go
<apw> For those who own a blueprint could you add a 'Status:' block to your
<apw> whiteboards which should be a couple of sentences covering the current
<apw> progress and any blockers.
<apw> ..
<bjf> ogra_ac, go
<ogra_ac> i would like to rais some attention to
<ogra_ac> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2010-November/031952.html
<ogra_ac> which the arm team would like to have clearness about
<apw> Subject: Ubuntu ARM and the linaro kernels
<apw> ogra_ac, yes, that is on our radar ... when we know yo
<ogra_ac> its currently not clear where the kernels for the new images are supposed to come from and who does the maintenance and how
<apw> you will know too :)
<ogra_ac> ah, good
<tgardner> ogra_ac, its not cleat to us either
<tgardner> clear*
<ogra_ac> my main concern is that we need "distro" kernels
<ogra_ac> thats fine then :)
<apw> ogra_ac, yes, and supported ones
<cooloney> i think we are pretty sure about that, we will keep ti-omap4 branch as Maverick
<ogra_ac> ++
<cooloney> but not sure about the omap3 solution
<ogra_ac> omap3 is moving to linaro on my request
<bjf> apw, it may be on the radar but the email thread is getting no love
<apw> ogra_ac, are you testing a CD with their output (omap3) ?
<ogra_ac> with worst case dropping full support for the image if we cant get a distro like kernel for it
<cooloney> so who are going to maintain that omap3 stuff in our distro kernel
<ogra_ac> and keep it as a community goodie
<ogra_ac> apw, thats the plan
<ogra_ac> my only concern is about security support
<ogra_ac> but i'm willing to demote the image to a community one
<apw> bjf, yes that is true, when we have some clarity we will publicise ...
<ogra_ac> omap3 is just a nice to have
<apw> ogra_ac, well the result of your testing will help very much with the planning process for this arm stuff
<ogra_ac> omap4 has to be supported but there seem to be no probs ahead with that
<apw> ogra_ac, when might we see your test results there.   we probabally need an official work-item for that testing as it is gating on some of the decision making imo
<ogra_ac> apw, right, prob is that we need the kernel in main etc
<ogra_ac> and indeed would prefer ubuntu suace as well as similar configs
<sconklin> we have no resources at all for anything that is simply "nice to have"
<apw> ogra_ac, it should have sauce in theory ...
<ogra_ac> neither is clear yet if linaro can do that
<ogra_ac> all i heard yet was that sauce is ripped out in linaro
<ogra_ac> i might be wrong though (and would be happy to be)
<apw> bjf could you action me to get some work-items for arm testing created
<ogra_ac> and that the amount of built drivers is supposed to be reduced in linaro
<tgardner> ogra_ac, John Rigby sends me pull requests for linux-linaro that has Ubuntu SAUCE
<bjf> [ACTION] apw to get work-items created for arm testing
<MootBot> ACTION received:  apw to get work-items created for arm testing
<ogra_ac> tgardner, awesome
<ogra_ac> then i'm wrong (and happy)
<tgardner> ogra_ac, and has been for all of Maverick
<ogra_ac> ok
<ogra_ac> i didnt touch any linaro kernels before
<tgardner> ogra_ac, I think you should try it out. I thought you were already using it
<bjf> tgardner, do those also have security updates?
<ogra_ac> nope, they dont have all drivers nor the same config
<ogra_ac> and no security support at all
<tgardner> bjf, yep cause jrigby rebases against Maverick master
<bjf> tgardner, cool
<ogra_ac> (which doesnt help much in natty)
<tgardner> ogra_ac, natty is a different story that is still in development
<ogra_ac> right
<ogra_ac> my concern is all about natty
<ogra_ac> maverick is done
<ogra_ac> we only do SRUs and maintenance
<tgardner> ogra_ac, I just don't know what the RM story for natty is yet.
<ogra_ac> (we wont change anything thats not SRU)
<tgardner> ARM*
<ogra_ac> yes, nobody seems to
<ogra_ac> yet i have to build images for alpha1
 * cooloney feels lost
<tgardner> ogra_ac, you shold be talking to jrigby
<ogra_ac> tgardner, that wont solve anything on the distro side
<tgardner> ogra_ac, why not? He's producing a distro kernel.
<ogra_ac> i just noticed i have a mail from him but that wont help with distro or security
<ogra_ac> he doesnt build all drivers
<tgardner> ogra_ac, ok, so bug him to turn stuff on or off
<ogra_ac> we want mostly identical configs across all builds
<ogra_ac> k
<bjf> does anyone have anything else?
<tgardner> ..
<ogra_ac> ..
<bjf> thanks everyone
<bjf> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:45.
<kamal> thanks bjf
<sconklin> thanks bjf
<cooloney> thanks bjf very much
<cking> thanks bjf
<SpamapS> anybody here for server team meeting?
<SpamapS> seeing as its 18:09 UTC
<JamesPage> hmmm; should be here and now according to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
<JamesPage> but seems a little quiet....
<smb> I am sort of standby, but google-cal may have gone hazzard
 * jjohansen is hanging around too
<jjohansen> SpamapS: I think the whole dst ending in n. america may have messed people up a bit
<SpamapS> jjohansen: yeah, plus the time was set at 19:00 in the header by ttx last week because he wasn't going to be able to attent at 18:00
<SpamapS> ok, I'll change the meeting time back to 19:00 in the header, and we'll try again in 45 minutes
<jjohansen> ah, I had missed that
<SpamapS> o/
<smb> \o
 * SpamapS waits for 1 more o/ 
<jjohansen> \o
<SpamapS> woot ok here we go
<SpamapS> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 13:01. The chair is SpamapS.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<mathiaz> o/
<JamesPage> o/
<SpamapS> FYI, the meeting was sort of half scheduled for 18:00, half for 19:00, so we're doing it now
<SpamapS> I will be the scribe since daviey is possibly unavailable
<SpamapS> [TOPIC] Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<MootBot> New Topic:  Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<SpamapS> Unfortunately, I believe those ACTION points in the agenda are the same as last week's.
<JamesPage> is that because we did not do them last week?
<SpamapS> please standby I will grep them out of the meeting log from last week..
<SpamapS> Ok there were none it seems
<SpamapS> moving on
 * mathiaz \o/
<SpamapS> [TOPIC] Natty Development
<MootBot> New Topic:  Natty Development
<mathiaz> it's always like that at the begining of a release cycle
<SpamapS> Indeed. :)
<SpamapS> I added this topic, just wanted to make sure people had a forum for any questions or comments on the spec process.
<mathiaz> so the focus is to get WI defined
<robbiew> right
<SpamapS> We should all be submitting specs for review by... is it next Thursday?
<mathiaz> once the WI are defined and rough plan is outlined the spec status should be moved to Review
<robbiew> and I've started reviewing/approving/deferring/asking :)
 * robbiew gave https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/NattyBlueprints some loving
<SpamapS> Feature Definition Freeze is 11/25, so specs must be approved before then right?
<mathiaz> one thing to consider is that it's possible (and actually encouraged) to add WI after the spec has been approved
<SpamapS> yes, its mostly about getting the design and intent clear
<mathiaz> as it helps to keep track of what needs to be done
<SpamapS> And a general idea of how much is needed to be done.
<mathiaz> and if an important is taking more time we can know in advance what other things should be dropped
<mathiaz> so WIs defined when a spec is approved are not set in stone
<SpamapS> ok, anything else on Natty?
<mathiaz> Natty is going to ROCK!
<SpamapS> Its going to burst forth from the ocean like a unicorn with flippers and a blow hole.
<robbiew> lol
<SpamapS> Alright, moving on.
<RoAkSoAx> is the meeting almost over or just started?
<SpamapS> [TOPIC] Maverick SRUs
<MootBot> New Topic:  Maverick SRUs
<SpamapS> I think this list also wasn't updated in the agenda.. and zul was mostly in charge of these, but does anyone have new ones to bring up for discussion?
<JamesPage> yes - bug 666028;
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 666028 in openldap "apt-get install slapd => Can't locate object method "new" via package "Debconf::Element::Noninteractive::Booleam"" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/666028
<JamesPage> for awareness more than anything else; its a follow up to bug 658227
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 658227 in openldap (Ubuntu Natty) "upgrade process does not upgrade underlying BDB format from 4.7 to 4.8 (so slapd aborts with "Program version 4.8 doesn't match environment version 4.7" error message)" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/658227
<mathiaz> JamesPage: the upload has been accepted in maverick-proposed
<mathiaz> and should be ready in a couple of hours for testing
<JamesPage> yep  - just went through
<SpamapS> right looks like pitti accepted it into proposed just now
<JamesPage> its holding up bug 661547
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 661547 in openldap (Ubuntu) "Existing patch gssapi.diff makes guess_service_principal produce garbage" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/661547
<JamesPage> but that might be debatable for SRU (we'll see I guess)
<SpamapS> Is anyone signed up to do the verification yet?
<mathiaz> SpamapS: usually it's the SRU team in QA that does it
<SpamapS> Ok.. I tend to verify my SRU's too.
<mathiaz> SpamapS: however it's become a zero-man team recently
<SpamapS> wha?
<mathiaz> well - not really - volunteer are still trying to do verification
<mathiaz> but it can take time
 * SpamapS debates an action for robbiew: "FIX IT!"
<mathiaz> so having someone within the server team taking care of sru-verification would be helpful
 * robbiew is no longer release manager ;)
<mathiaz> I'll do the sru-verification for openldap
<robbiew> +1 on having Server team member on SRU team
<robbiew> we are lucky to have pitti back from oem rotation this cycle for sure \o/...but help is definitely needed
<mathiaz> it's also better to have the sru verification done by someone else than develop and sponsored the fix
<SpamapS> [ACTION] mathiaz: to verify SRU bug 666028
<MootBot> ACTION received:  mathiaz: to verify SRU bug 666028
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 666028 in openldap "apt-get install slapd => Can't locate object method "new" via package "Debconf::Element::Noninteractive::Booleam"" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/666028
<JamesPage> mathiaz: I agree
<SpamapS> s/better/vital/
<mathiaz> which means that 3 people are required for getting an SRU through
<mathiaz> (1 developer, 1 reviewer, 1 verifier)
<SpamapS> Ok, so maybe another topic for discussion should be that we should raise the SRU manpower issue?
 * hggdh pays attention now
<mathiaz> yeah - that would be an interesting issue to solve
<mathiaz> we had plans to improve the SRU process
<SpamapS> maybe somebody could publicize that we are in need of some volunteer help for SRU's
<mathiaz> (devised in the summer sprint in dublin more than 1 year ago)
 * s3hh wonders what a reviewer task entails
<Daviey> o/
<robbiew> SpamapS: heh...if it were just advertising, it'd be a simple process to solve
<robbiew> MIR team needs help too
<SpamapS> yeah no kidding :p
<mathiaz> the SRU tracker was designed as a tool to help in tracking what needs to be done
<robbiew> and the Release Team could stand to grow a bit.../me gets off his soap box
<robbiew> :)
<mathiaz> it mainly is a ressource issue
<mathiaz> s3hh: a review task is about reviewing the SRU prepared by another developer
<mathiaz> s3hh: given that SRU is making there are no regression many eyes are important
<SpamapS> Ok, so right now, we just make it clear that there is a resource issue, and tax other devs for verification?
<ajmitch> robbiew: I didn't think the release team was necessarily involved in SRUs :)
<mathiaz> SpamapS: yeah - I think that's the good way
<mathiaz> SpamapS: with the sru tracker we should be able to generate a list of bugs that need to be verified
<robbiew> ajmitch: you should check out the members of each then ;)
<SpamapS> mathiaz: there's a tag for that ;)
<mathiaz> SpamapS: and then the verification needs to be done by someone
<ajmitch> SpamapS: is the problem mostly verification, or getting a package into -proposed in the first place?
<mathiaz> SpamapS: yes - the SRU tracker also filters the list to make it relevant to server package
<mathiaz> ajmitch: both ;)
<SpamapS> So maybe we should add a "daily verification" schedule similar to daily triage.
<mathiaz> SpamapS: make it smaller chunks
<mathiaz> SpamapS: yop - that was the next step :)
<SpamapS> zul_: think you could add a list of verification-needed bugs to the SRU tracker easily?
<mathiaz> SpamapS: it already is IIRC
<SpamapS> yes, why yes it is
<mathiaz> SpamapS: http://people.canonical.com/~chucks/SRUTracker/sru-tracker-bugs.html#verified_bugs
<SpamapS> [ACTION] ALL: please check the SRU tracker for verification-needed bugs and help out with verification
<MootBot> ACTION received:  ALL: please check the SRU tracker for verification-needed bugs and help out with verification
<SpamapS> Ok, lets move on
<SpamapS> ajmitch: getting things into proposed seems to happen at a fairly nice pace, we can thank pitti for that.
<SpamapS> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
<hggdh> k
<hggdh> first question is from myself
<hggdh> how are we going to test server images for MAC, armel, PPC?
<hggdh> nice to have them, but...
<ajmitch> SpamapS: oh I meant getting a package ready for -proposed, ie finding the fix
<mathiaz> hggdh: are there any images published for these architecture?
<hggdh> mathiaz: yes, just popped in in the server/daily
<JamesPage> whats the status of libvirt/kvm on those architectures?
<SpamapS> hggdh: I believe there were some build machines distributed for armel at UDS.. did we not get QA machines as well?
<hggdh> SpamapS: none for server testing at least; I did not hear of any for QA at all
<mathiaz> hggdh: well - I think these images should be tested
<s3hh> JamesPage: well ppc kvm is supposed to work iirc
<mathiaz> hggdh: in order to do that hardware needs to be available
<hggdh> mathiaz: I agree, I  did not say they would not, I asked *how* ;-)
<mathiaz> hggdh: which I don't have
<mathiaz> hggdh: and I don't know who on the team has hardware
<hggdh> robbiew: hello, sir :-)
<SpamapS> I have an old PowerMac G5.. but what really troubles me is that this suggests maybe we're going to have even *more* iso tests to run?
<hggdh> yes we will
<SpamapS> JamesPage: time to fire up automated iso testing on PPC. :-D
<robbiew> wait
<hggdh> libvirt would help, but we need to also try bare metal
<s3hh> doh
<robbiew> why are we discussing this?
<SpamapS> robbiew: no idea, hggdh brought it up
<robbiew> Ubuntu Server testing on PPC32?
<mathiaz> robbiew: http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-server/daily/current/
<JamesPage> SpamapS; yes - but we need to cover the other two cases using physical hardware as well
<mathiaz> robbiew: ^^ there are images for these architecture published there
<hggdh> robbiew: we have the images now
<SpamapS> Ooo I volunteer to host the PS3 test box...
<robbiew> we don't spin official ISOs for Server on PPC32
<robbiew> or PS3
<SpamapS> darn
<robbiew> these are ports, right?
<mathiaz> robbiew: I don't know - it's the first time I see these images show up on cdimage
<SpamapS> right, so we don't need to complete the iso tests.. that would be something the community would need to complete.
<mathiaz> robbiew: under the ubuntu-server daily iso
<robbiew> hmm
<robbiew> let me dig into this
<hggdh> thank you
<highvoltage> there are PS3 images on cdimage!?
<robbiew> I say for now...no testing of these flavors
<mathiaz> robbiew: it may be an error on the iso build scripts
<robbiew> intel and amd64 for now
<hggdh> robbiew: the same for AMD64-mac?
 * highvoltage sees there is and apologizes for his ignorance
<robbiew> just focus on i386 and amd64 images
<hggdh> k
<SpamapS> sounds good to me. :)
<hggdh> next item from QA
<mathiaz> hggdh: so nothing changes compared to last release cycle
<ajmitch> highvoltage: good luck getting a PS3 that you can still run it on :)
<hggdh> mathiaz: ack
<hggdh> I intend to expand daily build for packages with build-time checks
 * robbiew suspects this has to do with the discussion at UDS around relocating the ports stuff
<hggdh> so I would like you folks to give me these packages (so that I can add them in)
<mathiaz> hggdh: you're looking for packages that have their test suite run during the build?
<SpamapS> ahh so just add the natty package as a daily build, to test for toolchain regressions.
<hggdh> mathiaz: yes, this would be immediately used (like mysql, coreutils, etc)
<hggdh> which are already built daily, BTW
<mathiaz> hggdh: ok - I'd suggest to send email to ubuntu-devel/ubuntu-server for a first round of feedback
<SpamapS> hggdh: its not entirely clear how one would determine that easily, other than noticing it while looking at a package.
<mathiaz> hggdh: you can also find good candidates by looking at packages that support the nocheck option at build time
<hggdh> will look for them
<SpamapS> mathiaz: how is that determined though? grep nocheck debian/rules ?
<mathiaz> hggdh: as nocheck is the recommended way (may even be in the policy now) to disable tests at build time
<mathiaz> SpamapS: yes - nocheck in debian/rules
<mathiaz> SpamapS: write a script that looks for all debian/rules in the archive
<mathiaz> SpamapS: I recommand a local mirror of the archive to do so
<SpamapS> ok so that could be done in an automated fashion (albeit slow, since it would basically require grepping every diff and unpacking every .debian.tar.gz
<mathiaz> SpamapS: I usually as kees to run these scripts ;)
<SpamapS> hah good point
<SpamapS> so, is somebody going to do that?
<mathiaz> SpamapS: kirkland also has a local mirror and ran similar scripts before
<hggdh> will look for easy ways. Meanwhile, if you know of any such packages now... I can add them
<mathiaz> hggdh: mysql, openldap
<JamesPage> hggdh: is it possible to see whats already covered somewhere?
<hggdh> JamesPage: yes, just a sec
<SpamapS> hggdh: how about you send a message to ubuntu-server and ubuntu-devel with the coverage and a request for more packages that do checks?
<hggdh> deal.
<SpamapS> we need to move on.
<hggdh> I am done
<robbiew> right...so the new look of the daily images has to do with https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/ubuntutheproject-foundations-n-cdimage-ports-consolidation
<robbiew> just an FYI
<SpamapS> hggdh: thanks! :)
<SpamapS> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (jjohansen)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (jjohansen)
<jjohansen> well first up lets add an action item to change that from jjohansen to smb :)
<jjohansen> smb: did you have anything you wanted to bring up?
<smb> Just one notification that I was made aware of a bug which looks server related by Montreal: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/415353
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 415353 in linux (Ubuntu Lucid) "karmic/lucid installation slow on "detecting network hardware" with bnx2x" [Medium,Triaged]
<smb> Have not looked at that deeply but plan to do tomorrow
<SpamapS> jjohansen: will do when doing the minutes
 * smb spent most of today from recovering / catching up from yesterday which he spent recovering from returning from Plumbers
<jjohansen> The config patch for Bug #651370 has been submitted and accepted for SRU
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 651370 in linux (Ubuntu Maverick) "ec2 kernel crash invalid opcode 0000 [#1]" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/651370
<SpamapS> alright, anything else?
<mathiaz> smb: how is the kernel release manager for natty?
<mathiaz> smb: *who*
<jjohansen> what else, the pv-on-hvm drivers are in the natty kernel and we will be experimenting with them this week
<smb> apw
<SpamapS> mathiaz: aw, and here I thought you were just concerned for apw's well being
<mathiaz> :)
<SpamapS> alright, we're running a bit short on time, so unless there is anything else?
<jjohansen> I'm done
<SpamapS> sommer seems to be absent so we will skip Doc team q&a for now
<SpamapS> I've pinged kim0 .. but we can move on to the next topic till he replies
<SpamapS> [TOPIC] Meeting time and scheduling (SpamapS)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Meeting time and scheduling (SpamapS)
<SpamapS> I think actually Daviey and ttx brought this up originally
<SpamapS> two issues really
<SpamapS> 1) today's was moved back to 1900 UTC accidentally I think.. or did we move it to 1900 so it stays at the same local time for everybody who is now on DST ?
<mathiaz> SpamapS: 1) - yes for 2nd option
<robbiew> any reason why it's so late in the day?
<SpamapS> So given that do we have any strong thoughts about moving the meeting to 1600 UTC?
<robbiew> could we do 1700 UTC?
<mathiaz> robbiew: historical reason
<robbiew> or even 1600UTC
<JamesPage> 1600UTC would be better for me (and I now Daviey was keen as well)
 * robbiew would love 1600UTC...but wasn't sure SpamapS would be awake ;)
<mathiaz> 1600 UTC would mean we'd be back to back with the Tech Board
<Daviey> \o/
<mathiaz> every other week
<SpamapS> 1600 UTC will be 8:00am for me, but I have a 1 year old so thats usually 3 - 4 hours after I wake up
<Daviey> mathiaz: we used to be back to back
<Daviey> it was *rarely* a problem
<robbiew> eh...TB isn't that important anyway :P
<mathiaz> Daviey: yes - the meeting was at 16:00 UTC for a long time
 * robbiew says we move it back
 * JamesPage seconds the motion
 * s3hh is good w that
<SpamapS> I am totally fine w/ 16:00 as long as its understood I may be surly and have messy hair.
<robbiew> lol
<s3hh> SpamapS: keep that webcam off
<robbiew> yes..please!
<SpamapS> Ok, 16:00 UTC it is
<smb> This also means the meeting has to finish after one hour. :)
<SpamapS> (I believe we also discussed this offline with some other team members last week so I feel comfortable saying that "the motion carries")
<RoAkSoAx> jeez im gonna have to wake up early now :(
<SpamapS> smb: ++
<SpamapS> RoAkSoAx: I'll make an extra big pot of coffee so we can share
<SpamapS> [TOPIC] Open Discussion
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open Discussion
<RoAkSoAx> I need a volunteer to review the library split for cluster-stack packages... anyone? :)
<RoAkSoAx> before actually uploading to universe and requesting MIRs
<ajmitch> RoAkSoAx: 16:00 UTC shouldn't be that bad for you? there aren't too many server community people in this part of the world though
<SpamapS> RoAkSoAx: throw it up as a merge proposal and ask ubuntu-server for a review.
<SpamapS> RoAkSoAx: I'll take a peek.
<robbiew> wait folks...I think the desktop team meets at 16:30UTC...according to the Fridge
<SpamapS> Anybody else have any other topics?
<SpamapS> robbiew: doh
<mathiaz> robbiew: nope - they meet in ubuntu-desktop
<robbiew> sweet
<mathiaz> robbiew: the fridge is probably wrong
<robbiew> and odd...but who cares
<SpamapS> oh thats the other thing
<robbiew> \o/
<SpamapS> should we update the fridge?
<SpamapS> we aren't even listed there
<robbiew> I can
<SpamapS> [ACTION] robbiew: update the fridge calendar with new ubuntu server meeting time
<MootBot> ACTION received:  robbiew: update the fridge calendar with new ubuntu server meeting time
<RoAkSoAx> ajmitch: no it is actually not that bad... but it is early for me :P I wake up late sometimes :)
<SpamapS> Alright
<SpamapS> [TOPIC] Announce next meeting date and time
<MootBot> New Topic:  Announce next meeting date and time
<SpamapS> Tuesday 2010-11-16 at 1600 UTC - #ubuntu-meeting
<SpamapS> Thanks everyone!
<SpamapS> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 13:54.
<mathiaz> SpamapS: thanks!
<UndiFineD> o/
<cprofitt> #startmeeting Ubuntu Beginners Team
<MootBot> Meeting started at 17:59. The chair is cprofitt.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<friTTe|> \o
<pedro3005> \o/
<cprofitt> hello Beginners Team
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-11-10
<pedro3005> /o\  \o_ \o/
 * phillw is here
<cprofitt> please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/Meetings
<cprofitt> for the meeting agenda
<jledbetter> o/
<cprofitt> yes jledbetter
<jledbetter> Sorry, was waving along.
<cprofitt> ok
<duaneipho> my car broke down so I am not at home. I'll try and follow along and participate
<cprofitt> for the record can all Beginners Team meeting attendees say here
<pleia2> here
<phillw> here
<jledbetter> here
<friTTe|> here
<pedro3005> here
<UndiFineD> here
<mbergamo> here
<duaneipho> here
<cprofitt> anyone else?
<aveilleux> here
<nhandler> o/
<nhandler> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/Meetings
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/Meetings
<cprofitt> alright... thanks all
<cprofitt> [TOPIC] UDS-N Blueprints and Notes
<MootBot> New Topic:  UDS-N Blueprints and Notes
<cprofitt> duaneipho and I were both at UDS along with Darkwingduck
<cprofitt> there were several things that came up in regards to the beginners team
<cprofitt> the following were specs
<cprofitt> [link]https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/Specs/NattyRoadmap/MembershipProposal
<MootBot> LINK received: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/Specs/NattyRoadmap/MembershipProposal
<cprofitt> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/Specs/NattyRoadmap/MentorsProposal
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/Specs/NattyRoadmap/MentorsProposal
<cprofitt> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/Specs/NattyRoadmap/FocusGroupContainers
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/Specs/NattyRoadmap/FocusGroupContainers
<cprofitt> I know you will not all have time to read these, but these are the ideas that the council has been working on
<cprofitt> and the reason for some of the changes that will be discussed tonight
<cprofitt> there were also some other blueprints that the BT is part of, but are not the lead team on.
<cprofitt> The 'core' summary is that there is a desire from the community leaders and some other teams to utilize the BT as an on-ramp for people to become involved in the community
<cprofitt> Jono Bacon spent an entire session at UDS-N on Thursday discussing the BT and what the team has accomplished
<cprofitt> he kept saying "great work"
<cprofitt> so you all should feel very proud of what the team (you) have accopmplished
<nhandler> Yep. Great work everyone.
<duaneipho> +1
<phillw> +1
<cprofitt> the overall goal is to align ourselves a little tighter with existing Ubuntu teams
<cprofitt> this is expressed in how we are re-defining the Focus Groups
<cprofitt> membership process and mentor approval process
<cprofitt> You may have noticed significant changes to our Wiki as we prepared for this meeting
<cprofitt> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/Structure
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/Structure
<cprofitt> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/FGCreation
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/FGCreation
<cprofitt> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/Membership
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/Membership
<cprofitt> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/Mentors
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/Mentors
<cprofitt> in addition the header was tweaked and the colors changed slightly
<nhandler> (and lots of emails if you subscribe to BeginnersTeam/.*)
<cprofitt> the basic part of the change is that, in general, the BT FGs will be aligned with an associated Ubuntu team
<cprofitt> bugs-FG = Bug Control, Testing, and QA
<cprofitt> at some point if there is enough interest in one of those sub-topics and the necessary 'mentors' we would form another FG
<cprofitt> but that team is an example of how we try to align with existing team(s)
<cprofitt> does anyone have any questions about that part of FGs?
<nhandler> Nope
<cprofitt> ok...
<cprofitt> [TOPIC] Membership
<MootBot> New Topic:  Membership
<cprofitt> We also needed to really nail down membership
<phillw> in what way?
<cprofitt> at present members are those people who have demonstrated that they are knowledgable in an area of the Ubuntu project
<cprofitt> that could be development or advocacy
<cprofitt> they will also have proven that they are mature individuals who work well with others and are dedicated to giving something back to the community and beginners
<cprofitt> they do not need to be experts
<cprofitt> just knowledgeable
<cprofitt> any questions there?
<phillw> Nope
<PabloRubianes> no
<friTTe|> no
<cprofitt> The process is also detailed on the Join Us Page
<cprofitt> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/Membership
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/Membership
<cprofitt> I hope that this is very clear to prospective members
<cprofitt> There are two membership cases...
<cprofitt> an Ubuntu user that is knowledgeable, but has not contrinbuted to the Ubuntu Project before
<cprofitt> and an Ubuntu user who has contrinbuted before to other teams, but now wants to help mentor people
<cprofitt> In the first case the person will have to prove they have made contributions and are knoweldgeable
<cprofitt> this might take 1 month or 12 months (long long time)
<cprofitt> we do not rush the process
<cprofitt> the second case would be a special case
<cprofitt> such as Carlos (hgghd)
<cprofitt> who is a long standing member of bug-control, testing and QA
<cprofitt> in those cases these people will have a body of work that can be judged
<cprofitt> and a history of working with the community that can also be looked at
<cprofitt> in either case we have two choices
<cprofitt> 1)  wait until an official team meeting to vote on the new members
<cprofitt> or
<cprofitt> 2) have the council vote on the members with input live, wiki and email based on each prospecitve member
<phillw> +1 for 2)
<PabloRubianes> +1 for 1
<cprofitt> I would like to have the team vote on that idea the next time after we discuss it on the mailing list
<cprofitt> I see positives and negatives for both
<cprofitt> and think we should all think on it
<cprofitt> any questions on membership?
<cprofitt> [topic] Mentors
<MootBot> New Topic:  Mentors
<nhandler> I just wanted to note that even for experienced people, we still want to make sure they are integrated well with the team
<cprofitt> +1 nhandler
<PabloRubianes> good
<PabloRubianes> I thing
<phillw> +1
<friTTe|> yeah
<PabloRubianes> One thing sorry?
<UndiFineD> +1 for 1
<cprofitt> At UDS we received a couple of comments about some of our mentors not being 'knwoledgeable' in certain areas
<cprofitt> PabloRubianes: go ahead
<PabloRubianes> people who don't know and never contribute to the Ubuntu project... are going to be integrated till are electable right?
<cprofitt> PabloRubianes: yes -- they will be prospective members that we work with
<PabloRubianes> good
<cprofitt> we will work as long as they keep trying
<cprofitt> work with them
<PabloRubianes> I think that should be clear for thouse people to make them work hard
 * cprofitt nods
<cprofitt> ok... back to mentors
<phillw> agrees
<cprofitt> we had some comments that are mentors were not knowledgeable
<cprofitt> the incidents were isolated, but we agreed that we should have a tighter control on 'mentors'
<cprofitt> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/Mentors
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/Mentors
<cprofitt> you will notice a few things in the mentors page
<cprofitt> there are now rows with time zones
<cprofitt> I would appreciate folks modifying their entry to fit their time zone
<pleia2> that's great
<cprofitt> also there is a column for Focus Group / Qualifications
<cprofitt> if you have no qualification area -- you are a general mentor
<cprofitt> and you can help people join the BT
<cprofitt> we all know how that works :-)
<nhandler> Looks like the time zone column is messed up
<cprofitt> if, you want to be a bug-FG mentor, you would need to get some testimonials from the bug-control team or another associated team
<jledbetter> I think the time zones are subheader rows nhandler
<cprofitt> time zones are rows that cover the entire table
<nhandler> Well, we should probably make it a bit more clear that they are headers, but we can fix that later ;)
<cprofitt> to become a bug-control FG mentor you would apply to the council
<duaneipho> sorry for the flacky connection. what page we talking about?
<cprofitt> you would get either the associated team lead to give you a testimonial or two other associated team members
<friTTe|> duaneipho: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/Mentors
<duaneipho> thank you
<cprofitt> the council would then vote to approve you or work further with you to improve your level of knowledge
<phillw> cprofitt: as PhilBull has made me a wiki administrator, can I add wiki to my area?
<cprofitt> No.
<cprofitt> you would apply to the doc-FG to be a mentor
<phillw> okies
<cprofitt> you would have PhilBull add a testimonial to your page
<cprofitt> the council would then talk with you and make a decision
<phillw> cprofitt: it's already there :)
<cprofitt> it is not always enough to be made a member of a team
<phillw> np
<cprofitt> we need to ensure that the associated team feels you have enough knowledge to 'teach' and the BT council wants to ensure your temperment is suitable to teaching as well
<cprofitt> being a mentor can be trying at times
<cprofitt> so it is not knowledge alone that makes a mentor
<phillw> +1 :)
<cprofitt> any questions on mentors?
<cprofitt> ok
<cprofitt> [topic] changing the wiki to fit the new theme
<MootBot> New Topic:  changing the wiki to fit the new theme
<cprofitt> duaneipho: you have the floor
<duaneipho> I have think we have done a pretty good job of that
<duaneipho> has everyone tried the page out with the new theme?
<nhandler> My only concern is that the theme might look ok in the light theme, but right now, it looks rather "bad" in the kubuntu theme
<PabloRubianes> yes
<cprofitt> I wish there was a way to have two different wiki codes for each theme
<duaneipho> nhandler we might consider looking at the all white menus
<cprofitt> but for now that is an issue
<nhandler> duaneipho: I think that might be nice.
<cprofitt> we can certainly keep trying to work on it
<duaneipho> not as neat as what we have but more theme agnostic
<cprofitt> right now our menus are grey
<cprofitt> and the side is grey
<cprofitt> [ACTION] cprofitt and duaneipho will create a test header page for different color combos to be tested
<MootBot> ACTION received:  cprofitt and duaneipho will create a test header page for different color combos to be tested
<nhandler> cprofitt: They have definitely gotten better (than what they were the other day), but the purple and orange don't go well with the blue
<duaneipho> I agree
<cprofitt> any more on the theme -- or just a desire to try and make them better?
<cprofitt> ok
<cprofitt> [TOPIC] New Member Nominations
<MootBot> New Topic:  New Member Nominations
<cprofitt> We have two tonight
<duaneipho> yeah that is it. it was actually left over topic from last month
<cprofitt> the first is bioterror mentored by phillw
<cprofitt> bioterror is out due to family illness
<cprofitt> phillw: would you like to speak on your mentees behalve?
<duaneipho> oh no
<phillw> he does send his apologies.
<duaneipho> can we post his wiki
<nhandler> cprofitt: So you want to process these in the old style?
<cprofitt> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/bioterror
<cprofitt> for now yes nhandler
<cprofitt> team vote
<cprofitt> until we have time to consider the proposal put forth tonight
<phillw> He's been on today, but 2AM was too big an ask for him
<cprofitt> would anyone else like to give a testimonial for bioterror?
<friTTe|> he has a great knowledge in different things
<phillw> cprofitt: I believe hobgoblin also sent a mail to mailing list.
<friTTe|> always seem to know the answers
<cprofitt> [VOTE] To accept bioterror as a Ubuntu Beginners Team Member
<MootBot> Please vote on:  To accept bioterror as a Ubuntu Beginners Team Member.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<duaneipho> hobgoblin testimonial was likely from his work in ubuntu-beginners
<phillw> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from phillw. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<nhandler> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from nhandler. 1 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 1
<duaneipho> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from duaneipho. 2 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 2
<friTTe|> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from friTTe|. 3 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 3
<UndiFineD> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from UndiFineD. 4 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 4
<PabloRubianes> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from PabloRubianes. 5 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 5
<cprofitt> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from cprofitt. 5 for, 0 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 5
<cprofitt> any more votes?
<duaneipho> I think we forgot to mention voting was for members:)
 * aveilleux isn't a member yet so she can't vote
<cprofitt> any more votes?
<cprofitt> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 5 for, 0 against. 2 abstained. Total: 5
<cprofitt> [agreed] bioterror is now a UBT member
<MootBot> AGREED received:  bioterror is now a UBT member
<duaneipho> so is that 3 for
<cprofitt> the next candidate is jledbetter with myself as a mentor
<cprofitt> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/jledbetter
<pedro3005> damn, missed it
<cprofitt> jledbetter: would you like to address the members?
<duaneipho> yaa
<jledbetter> cprofitt, Thank you. Yes.
<duaneipho> i think jledbetter would make a good member. always catch her giving help when possible.
<cprofitt> I would like to add that jledbetter has been active in the community by participating remotely with UDS, attending linux shows, presenting in OpenWeek and with Ubuntu Women
<jledbetter> Hello everyone. I'm jledbetter, and as you can see, I love to code :) I'm hoping to help answer the question "I do X language and want to contribute. How can I?" I've been a member of Ubuntu-Women and my LoCo and am holding my first Ubuntu Hour in a few weeks. I have been interviewed and share my love for Ubuntu and the community. I blog and hope to do screencasts. Whatever I can to help out :)
<cprofitt> She is also involved with a project I think we should also consider called the 100 user project
<jledbetter> duaneipho, Thank you :)
<cprofitt> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/100UsersProject
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/100UsersProject
<phillw> excellent :)
<duaneipho> remote participated at uds and always violunteering for stuff.
<PabloRubianes> Great!
<nhandler> jledbetter: Lanuage of choice ?
<jledbetter> Yes, have my action items from UDS and very excited about them :)
<cprofitt> In my opinion she has integrated very well with our team and would be a good asset as a UBT member
<jledbetter> nhandler, Java at work but learning Python.
 * nhandler won't hold that against her
 * cprofitt smiles
<duaneipho> lol
<jledbetter> nhandler, Appreciated ;) Gotta pay the bills.
<cprofitt> no language ware allowed
<cprofitt> :-)
<jledbetter> Hehe.
<cprofitt> anyone else have any questions for jledbetter
<duaneipho> java got a lot cooler now that apple has dropped it :)
<PabloRubianes> nope let's vote :-)
<cprofitt> [VOTE] To accept jledbetter as a Ubuntu Beginners Team Member
<MootBot> Please vote on:  To accept jledbetter as a Ubuntu Beginners Team Member.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<phillw> +1
<cprofitt> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from phillw. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<pleia2> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from cprofitt. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<MootBot> +1 received from pleia2. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<pedro3005> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from pedro3005. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<PabloRubianes> +1
<duaneipho> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from PabloRubianes. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
<MootBot> +1 received from duaneipho. 6 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 6
<nhandler> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from nhandler. 7 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 7
<cprofitt> anymore votes?
<duaneipho> woot!
<friTTe|> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from friTTe|. 8 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 8
<UndiFineD> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from UndiFineD. 9 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 9
<cprofitt> anymore votes?
<cprofitt> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 9 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 9
<cprofitt> [agreed] jledbetter is accepted as an UBT member
<MootBot> AGREED received:  jledbetter is accepted as an UBT member
<cprofitt> congrats jledbetter
<PabloRubianes> congrats jledbetter
<jledbetter> Yay! Thank you everyone :)
<nhandler> Congratulations and welcome to the team jledbetter
<cprofitt> as there are no other topics I will close with the following brief comments
<duaneipho> congrats jledbetter and bioterror
<cprofitt> please remember to contribute to our meeting planning by adding topics to the meeting page and discussing them on the mailing list
<cprofitt> yes, congrats to bioterror as you and your family hopefully get better
<cprofitt> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 18:51.
<cprofitt> thanks everyone!!
<PabloRubianes> I would like to congrat the Council for the great work!
<cprofitt> Excellent meeting
<duaneipho> yes definetly we need to take advantage of ml
<phillw> very informative :)
<cprofitt> if anyone would like to discuss anything I will be available for open discussion in our team channel
<head_victim> Well run meeting, first BT I've sat in on.
<cprofitt> #ubuntu-beginners-team
<cprofitt> thanks head_victim
<cprofitt> good to have you sit in with us
<head_victim> I was afk for the first 30 minutes but caught up for the voting.
<phillw> cprofitt: our head of dev was on earlier I'll catch up with him later.
<friTTe|> sorry bout the voting i wasnt supposed to, first meeting and the AM is to blame
<phillw> friTTe|: your mentor will flog you later.
<friTTe|> yeah
<mvo> hello
<cjwatson> yo
<barry> howdy
<JamesHunt> Â¡hola!
<robbiew> yo!
<robbiew> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:02. The chair is robbiew.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<robbiew> [TOPIC] Foundations Team Lightning round
<MootBot> New Topic:  Foundations Team Lightning round
<robbiew> JamesHunt: so fyi, we usually do a 2-3 sentence update
<robbiew> which is usually already prepared by the team and cut and pasted :P
<JamesHunt> kk.
<robbiew> cjwatson: mind going 1st? :)
<cjwatson> done: piles of merges (esp. isc-dhcp coordination with network-manager), enabled natty builds, consolidated ports on cdimage, made os-prober mark block devices read-only, caught up somewhat on 10.04.2 uploads
<mvo_> sorry - disconnected
<cjwatson> todo: um.  work items!  I think I need to get back to figuring out what's involved with using GRUB for CD booting, but am open to other priorities
<cjwatson> --
<robbiew> text free booting :)
<cjwatson> "enabled natty CD builds", that should've said
<cjwatson> I think I'm mostly blocked on the kernel team for that, but it's true that I could merge ebroder's blacklist patch - I'll do that
<robbiew> cjwatson: thnx
<robbiew> mvo: mvo_: ??
<robbiew> lol
<mvo_> did: 3 days on vacaion :), mail backlog, admin stuff (travel booking dallas, expenses), fix cron script on on people running crazy,
<mvo_>  prepare natty update-manager, upload msttcorefonts with EULA display, work on my LP branch to land (in week 4 now ;)
<mvo_> this/next week: blueprints! make maverick->natty upgrades work
<mvo_> eh, vacation
<mvo_> (done)
<robbiew> barry?
<barry> python27 ftbfs bugs (670188, 671222, 672843, 6633343); continue to work on python bug 9807 (build flags); flufl.* packaging updates for debian; maverick on apple powerpc; setuptools_bzr packaging and ppa upload from user request; help oubiwann w/C extension writing.  this week: finish bug 9807 work for py3.2b1; more ftbfs for py27; pkgme/udd work.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 9807 in base-config (Ubuntu) "Doesn't put {warty,hoary}-updates in sources.list" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/9807
<barry> thank you ubottu, that's not a lp bug :)
<barry> (done)
<robbiew> doko: ?
<doko> back from vacation / llvm developers meeting last week, catching up, writing two specs
<doko> and grumbling about the changelog change ...
<cjwatson> barry: good to know it's fixed though!
<robbiew> Keybuk: ?
<barry> cjwatson: not yet accepted upstream, but i'm hopeful ;)
<cjwatson> I meant the LP bug :-)
<Keybuk> done: mostly been getting notes in order, preparing to meet weekly with James Hunt, catching up post-UDS and upgrading machines to maverick
<barry> cjwatson: :)
<robbiew> Keybuk: cool, thnx
<robbiew> ev: you around?
<robbiew> must be fighting protesters at millbank
<barry> or joining them?
<robbiew> psurbhi is out sick
<robbiew> lol
<Keybuk> he's on the DX team now, remember
<robbiew> JamesHunt: anything to add?
<barry> so, designing better protest signs?
<robbiew> Keybuk: oh yeah
<JamesHunt> firehose is still squirting: having fun reading through wiki.{canonical|ubuntu}.com, starting to get to grips with upstart (lots of reading + playing), wrote up plumbers report, expenses, investigating debootstrap/armel/natty issue for colin/ogra, (I feel like I've read half the web! :), started to look at how to compare bootchart[12] in upstream/ubuntu/debian.
<robbiew> barry: he's designing apis to make sign making more uniform :P
<JamesHunt> TODO: - meet up with Scott on Friday. Finish reading the web,debootstrap issue, bootchart.
<barry> robbiew: :-D
<JamesHunt> re dallas, do I need to contact Amity?
<robbiew> JamesHunt: great
<robbiew> JamesHunt: yes....sorry
<robbiew> forgot all about that
<JamesHunt> np - I'll call Matt today...
<robbiew> JamesHunt: https://wiki.canonical.com/UbuntuPlatform/Rally/Natty
<robbiew> fyi
<JamesHunt> thx
<robbiew> [TOPIC] Natty Blueprints
<MootBot> New Topic:  Natty Blueprints
<robbiew> Feature Definition Freeze is Nov 25th
<robbiew> So we need to have specs done and work items mostly sorted before then
<robbiew> I'm out that week..so the 19th is what I want folks to shoot for
<robbiew> I don't think there's much for us to do, as most of our work is maverick carry-over
<robbiew> \o/
<cjwatson> gotcha, seems fair
<robbiew> which is nice for a change
<barry> indeed
<mvo_> yep
<robbiew> Omnipotent Ox will be interesting :P
<robbiew> okey dokey
<barry> Ornery Otter
<robbiew> [TOPIC] 10.04.2 Stuff
<MootBot> New Topic:  10.04.2 Stuff
<robbiew> the next LTS point release is coming...due out in Feb I believe
<robbiew> just want to keep it in folks' mind
<robbiew> as skaet will soon be on the attack! :)
<skaet> :)
<robbiew> [TOPIC] Sponsorship Queue
<MootBot> New Topic:  Sponsorship Queue
<robbiew> sorry..too many conversations
<ScottK> Everyone PM robbiew on the count of three ....
<robbiew> heh
<robbiew> I can ignore quite easily ;)
<mvo_>  /ignore *
<robbiew> so https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SponsorshipProcess has been updated
<robbiew> as well as https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/CodeReviews
<mvo_> with the new idea around having a specific sponsoring day that will probably become shorter and shorter
<cjwatson> aha, we even have a schedule
<cjwatson> neat
<mvo_> now someone needs to write a script/bot that adds it to my calendar or mails me in the morning about it :)
<robbiew> the relevant email can be found here: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/529430/
<robbiew> Note the last bullet: * I'd like to start with the first patch pilot on Monday the 22nd.
<cjwatson> so that'll be week 4?
<robbiew> I think so
<cjwatson> or week 1?
<robbiew> heh
<robbiew> good point...ask dholbach
<robbiew> :)
<barry> right.  i'm on for week1/day1, but when is "week1"?
<dholbach> if you find a better way of putting the schedule, I'm all ears
<dholbach> I was thinking of week1 of the month
<robbiew> let's use summit :)
<robbiew> lol
<mvo_> dholbach will just write a django app for it ;)
<dholbach> mvo_, I won't :)
 * mvo_ hugs dholbach
<cjwatson> so there'll be a few dead days at the end of some months?
<dholbach> does anybody have a good proposal for fixing this? in the end I ran out of platform team members :)
<barry> btw, i can only do reviews (no uploads) so someone with upload rights will still have to come along behind and push the button
<ScottK> dholbach: Community team should fill in at the end.
<robbiew> barry: we need to get that fixed ;)
<barry> robbiew: working on it!
<robbiew> ScottK: I like that idea
 * ScottK thought you might.
<cjwatson> robbiew should fill in at the end. :)
<robbiew> lol
<robbiew> yeah...you don't want that
<robbiew> trust me
<dholbach> ScottK, do you mean the Canonical Community team? in that case: all ubuntu-dev members of it are on the schedule already
<cjwatson> I think ScottK is trolling you
<robbiew> lol
<ScottK> dholbach: I did.  Of course not all the people on the schedule are ubuntu-dev.
<robbiew> in terms of Canonical developers...they should be, and if not, should be working towards it ;)
<dholbach> ScottK, they are
<ScottK> Ah.  Forgot some of them have PPU, so they are ubuntu-dev.
<dholbach> yep
 * ScottK still thinks jcastro could do it.
<robbiew> anyway....I want to reinforce that sponsoring is IMPORTANT...not secondary to feature work or bug fixing
<barry> i think we should encourage folks to jump in and do reviews
<dholbach> barry, totally
<dholbach> I added some docs to UbuntuDevelopment/CodeReviews to explain how it works
<barry> dholbach: awesome.  i'll read that over today
<dholbach> gracias!
<highvoltage> robbiew: +1 :)
<robbiew> ;)
<robbiew> [TOPIC] AOB/Good News?
<MootBot> New Topic:  AOB/Good News?
<barry> cjwatson: can you kickoff no-change rebuilds of python-apt, gnome-python, dbus-python to pick up py27?  that plus the change mvo just merged should make update-manager work on natty again.
<robbiew> JamesHunt: AOB = Any Other Business
<ScottK> barry: I was just about to ask about where we were on rebuilds.
<mvo_> barry: I'm happy to do python-apt and update-manager (and the other two if cjwatson is busy). I don't think we have auto no-change rebuilds
<mvo_> or do we now?
<ScottK> mvo_: It's automatic to barry if cjwatson does it when he asks.
<barry> ;)
<barry> mvo_: thanks
<mvo_> heh :)
<barry> i thought cjwatson had a script
<cjwatson> nope
<ScottK> barry: Would you be available to help out with getting python-qt4 and related packages working with Python3?  There's upstream support.  It's ~dh_python3 integration.
<cjwatson> I'll do gnome-python and dbus-python, and mvo can do python-apt
<barry> ScottK: fwiw, i'm building up packages again in ppa:pythoneers/py27stack4 (for main), but lp has a bug that is making managing that ppa difficult atm
<mvo_> oki
<barry> cjwatson, mvo_ awesome thanks.  please let me know if there is anything i can do to make this easier, or some other process i should follow
<cjwatson> barry: the thing I have a script for is for retrying something that failed to build - otherwise it's literally "bump changelog, make new upload"
<barry> ScottK: i can give it a shot. maybe later in the week?
<ScottK> barry: Sure.  Please join in #kubuntu-devel when you're ready.
<barry> cjwatson: ah, right, gotcha.
<robbiew> okay...any REAL AOB or Good News?
<robbiew> :)
<ScottK> robbiew: Python2.7 is going pretty smoothly so far.
<cjwatson> libpipeline's now in unstable+natty, for those who caught my lightning talk
<barry> robbiew: wade phillips? :)
<ScottK> (there's good news)
<robbiew> ScottK: \o/
<robbiew> barry: lol
<cjwatson> feedback welcome!
 * ScottK is  this: --><--  close to being able to ask for boost1.40 removal.
<barry> cjwatson: nice!  great talk, cool library
 * robbiew can feel the love!
<barry> ScottK: once we get a few core packages rebuilt for py27, i think we're going to be in much better shape (i.e. close lots of bugs in one fell swoop)
<JamesHunt> cjwatson: gr8! I wonder if we could audit packages to determine a list of potential customers? :)
<cjwatson> the security team certainly perked up, so I wonder if kees already has some audit scripts that could be repurposed
<robbiew> okay...calling it
<robbiew> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:41.
<robbiew> :)
<robbiew> you get 20min more of your life back!
<barry> robbiew: thanks!
<mvo_> thanks
<robbiew> no...thank you ;)
<highvoltage> boo.
<alkisg> Hi all
<mhall119> here!
<highvoltage> hi, alkisg
 * stgraber waves
<highvoltage> agenda at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/Meetings/Agenda as usual
<highvoltage> stgraber: ah, pleasantly surprised to see you made it!
<stgraber> I'm in the middle of another meeting, but yeah I'm here ;)
<highvoltage> roadmap with progressy stuff here:
<highvoltage> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/Devel/RoadMap
<highvoltage> stgraber told me this morning that we might have edubuntu daily builds again tomorrow
<charlie-tca> hm, today's desktop build failed to install
<highvoltage> so edubuntu natty is pretty much on it's way to being in full swing development
<highvoltage> charlie-tca: the edubuntu build failed to build even :)
<charlie-tca> yup
<charlie-tca> Hoping for good builds tomorrow
<highvoltage> *nod*
<mgariepy> i'm here too :)
<highvoltage> stgraber, alkisg, mhall119, mgariepy: anything else you'd like to add to the agenda for today?
<mhall119> not me, I haven't had a chance to do any edubuntu or qimo work since UDS
<mhall119> have the daily's been refreshed from debian now?
<highvoltage> I'd like to talk about our icon theme, we currently use Breathe, which is great because it is Human-like and colourful without being too horrible. It's biggest problem though is that it's panel icons aren't that ubuntuy anymore
<mhall119> you mean they don't have mono-color icons?
<highvoltage> mhall119: well, the archives are sync from debian, dailys are built from the ubuntu archives
<highvoltage> mhall119: indeed.
<mgariepy> nothing to add
<highvoltage> I considered getting involved with the Breathe project to add mono icons using breathe as a fallback theme, but there's a bunch of other updates we'd probably have to do too
<highvoltage> well, have to do. like icons that contain old ubuntu (brown) theming and relics
<highvoltage> but I've been using Faenza on my netbook for a while and I quite like it, I think it might be suitable for Edubuntu too
<highvoltage> http://tiheum.deviantart.com/art/Faenza-Icons-173323228
<mhall119> any reason to use a different icon theme than Ubuntu?
<highvoltage> I like the squary-rounded icons, and if it was just up to me I'd say we could give it a try
<highvoltage> mhall119: our biggest reason so far has been that the ubuntu default icons have been a bit too 'bland' or corporate, and that we want something a bit more exciting
<highvoltage> sticking to ubuntu defaults would be easier and less work though
 * charlie-tca wants to say Xubuntu is looking at Faenza also
<mhall119> who's getting Faenza into the archives?
 * alkisg switches to ubuntu defaults in edubuntu installations...
<highvoltage> charlie-tca: yay, so you can get it in the archives then ;)
<charlie-tca> yup
<charlie-tca> there is a ppa already, so it should not be hard
<highvoltage> I've used the ppa before but haven't looked at the packages in detail yet.
<charlie-tca> I have been running them for about a month now. they look good
<highvoltage> I wonder if we should stick to the ubuntu default and just include icon themes in the installation that users might want to use?
<highvoltage> hmm, faenza would add around 10MB to the iso
<highvoltage> but at least we should come down in size quite a bit anyway
<mhall119> oh, I spoke with JR at UDS about the KDE dependency that pulls in everything
<mhall119> maco has the same problem with gally
<highvoltage> mhall119: that's been fixed, at least :)
<mhall119> hopefully it'll be fixed by moving a Recommends to a Suggests in a package
<mhall119> oh, it's already fixed?
<highvoltage> yep, we didn't even notice it getting fixed (oops)
<highvoltage> mhall119: if you check on an Edubuntu maverick DVD, it's actually fine
<mhall119> really? hmmm
<mhall119> cause when we check at UDS, on my maverick install, it was there
<mhall119> weird
<mhall119> we checked the kde dependencies, not edubuntu
<highvoltage> it got fixed somewhere during the cycle and we didn't notice it. stgraber and I checked it last week to try to get it fixed, and the problem is present on a lucid->maverick upgrade, but not on a clean maverick system
<mhall119> ah, ok
 * mhall119 upgraded
<highvoltage> I'm sure there's still some cruft, but we don't have all of plasma or desktop sessions or stuff like that anymore
<highvoltage> for systems that are already installed we won't be able to do anything for really, at least nothing that's not too intrusive
<mhall119> I don't think we'd want to anyway
<highvoltage> yep.
<highvoltage> Edubuntu Council Term is coming to an end in a bit more than a month
<highvoltage> we commicated with the CC and sabdfl said that since we're a tight core, it should be ok for the current council to be re-appointed
<highvoltage> we should still check who's still available with the current members though, and find out if they are actually available for another term
<highvoltage> I e-mailed all the current members a bit more than a week ago, but not everyone has responded yet
<highvoltage> we also need to allow for new members to step up
<ScottK> Do you have such a thing as "Edubuntu membership"?
<highvoltage> I'll poke those that didn't respond already a bit harder today and then announce if we have open positions available
<highvoltage> ScottK: yep, although there are only a few edubuntu members really
<ScottK> My thought is that if you work on expanding the Edubuntu membership then eventually you'll have enough to have a reasonable election for Edubuntu Council by that body.
<highvoltage> ScottK: Ubuntu members can get it very easily though (they basically just have to apply and attend a meeting), so there's not at all a high barrier
<ScottK> That's probably enough.
<highvoltage> ScottK: indeed. it's something that I wanted to work on the last year, but there's just been so many other high priority things. the next few months should be better for that
<ScottK> Sure.  Understood.
 * mhall119 would like to apply for Edubuntu Membership this meeting
<ScottK> Personally, I think being selected by the relevant community is a better basis for legitimacy than appointment by the CC.  CC appointments should be seen as a temporary work around.
<highvoltage> mhall119: the usual process is to add your name to the meeting agenda so that we can make sure we have EC quorum
<highvoltage> mhall119: if we can get quorum though, we can probably do it today
<highvoltage> nixternal: are you around?
<highvoltage> mhall119: we need 4 EC members present, I poked sbalneav on #ltsp, but I'm not sure if he's around, we could probably do an impromptu meeting later for that then
<mhall119> no problem
<mhall119> I added it to the agenda anyway
<highvoltage> great
<highvoltage> mhall119: I added twidenash to the Edubuntu site, it's not public yet I just need to fix a CSS problem (that's been pesty to track down), once that's sorted out we'll use it instead of the identica badge
<mhall119> cool
<mhall119> glad it's working
<highvoltage> edubuntu's ubiquity-slideshow is now moved out from the edubuntu-live package and into the proper bzr branch where all the other slideshows live
<highvoltage> so tomorrow's daily build (and probably the rest of the week's as well) won't have a slideshow
<highvoltage> but that will be fine again when the new slideshow packages are built (I'll poke some people today/tomorrow) to find out how that works
<highvoltage> oops, that closing bracket should've come much later :)
<highvoltage> we've linked to the edubuntu marketplace from the homepage based on discussions with Canonical at UDS
<highvoltage> although we haven't announced it much or linked to it from anywhere else
<highvoltage> so we'll probably have to spend some time on that as well at some point
<highvoltage> ok, just talked to stgraber (who actually had the conversation)
<highvoltage> the marketplace will just list hardware vendors eventually. commercial solution providers, etc will move to a new page somewhere on the ubuntu.com site
<highvoltage> the edubuntu seeds have already been modified to include the updates on package selections, so the first edubuntu daily builds will have all of those packages that were approved tentatively for inclusion at UDS
<highvoltage> before the first alpha we'll just have to go through them at some point and check which packages shouldn't be there anymore
<highvoltage> especially since we might have 2-3 packages having very similar functionality in the initial builds
<highvoltage> mhall119: I didn't get hold of nixternal or sbalneav, so we'll have to do that later
<mhall119> highvoltage: there's no hurry
<highvoltage> and that pretty much concludes what I have to update on :)
<mhall119> has anybody heard from dinda?
<highvoltage> well, I just saw dinda joining the channel :)
<highvoltage> dinda: are you here?
<mhall119> guess not
<highvoltage> anything else before I hit the end of meeting gong?
<alkisg> What did that mail about the bugsquad subscription mean?
<mhall119> no for me
<highvoltage> alkisg: ah, edubuntu-council was set (incorrectly) to expire from that team after a year
<alkisg> Ah, ok
<highvoltage> alkisg: so we set it to not expire, and that's what the mail notification said
<stgraber> nothing to add here (sorry, was multi-tasking a lot today ...)
<highvoltage> ok, seems like that's it then. thanks everybody
<highvoltage> *gong*
<alkisg> Btw yesterday we setup a google map for greek schools using (ed)ubuntu/ltsp to pin their locations, and already 30 schools did so: http://goo.gl/maps/nOoQ
<mhall119> can that be used for non-greek school installs too?
<alkisg> This is for finland: http://goo.gl/maps/YiFQ
<alkisg> It'd probably be nice if we started a global map...
<mhall119> yeah, that's what I was thinking
<highvoltage> alkisg: nice!
<alkisg> ...or at least if we made a page in the edubuntu site/wiki with links to such maps
<highvoltage> alkisg: *nod*
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-11-11
<wers> Ayatana-UX?
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-11-13
<Pici> hi
<tsimpson> \o
<Seeker`> o/
<rww> o/
<Pici> so..
<tsimpson> I think it's just us...
<Pici> hmm.
<Seeker`> looks like you are missing at least 1 IRCC member?
<Pici> yeah..
<Seeker`> great
<Pici> yep
<Pici> :|
<tsimpson> well, we could still discuss the items (but not actually vote)
<Seeker`> a really good demonstration of how the ircc is really working to make progress
<Seeker`> tsimpson: you'll just have to go over everything again, surely?
<tsimpson> Seeker`: at the next meeting if opinions/ideas differ enough
<Pici> I wonder if this could be a result of the fridge being weird with daylight savings changes.
<tsimpson> it could be
<Pici> My calendar say this meeting is in an hour :/
<Seeker`> tsimpson: You'll have to cover whatever you cover now with the additional IRCC members to get them up to date, surely?
<Pici> Even though 2000 UTC is now.
<tsimpson> Seeker`: logs
<tsimpson> Pici: we could wait an hour and see
<Seeker`> nhandler has 0 excuse
<tsimpson> Seeker`: why?
<Seeker`> he sent the email to the list today reminding people about it
<tsimpson> and?
<Seeker`> so he should be here?
<tsimpson> he didn't state he'd be here in the email
<Seeker`> tsimpson: all IRCC members should be present at most meetings, should they not?
<rww> Pici: The Fridge calendar is broken by daylight savings time. I believe the relevant page on it mentions this ;)
<Pici> rww: :(
<Pici> Seeker`: yes.
<tsimpson> Seeker`: we require 3, but all is better sure
<Pici> or what tsimpson said rather.
<Pici> I propse waiting until :15
<Pici> propose too
<rww> Start calling Finland, get them over here ;P
<Seeker`> If IRCC members are planning on not attending the meetings, they should send an email to the list
<Seeker`> so people with things on the agenda don't waste their time turning up to meetings that aren't happening.
<Pici> Seeker`: We usually tell each other if we can't make it.
<Seeker`> How does that help me?
<Seeker`> How can I find out that the meeting that I've rearranged my evening for isn't happening?
<Pici> Seeker`: Well if we knew we werent going to have enough people attend then we'd send something to the public mailing list.
<Pici> Seeker`: I'm frustrated too. Not all of us want to spent all the time in front of the computer.
<tsimpson> if we knew there wouldn't be a quorum, we would have candled/postponed the meeting
<Seeker`> Hence why IRCC members should send an email to the public list if they aren't planning on attending. Sending an email that says "I won't be there" takes literally 30 seconds and can be sent from just about everywhere.
<Seeker`> And that way it would be more apparent who is/isnt turning up to meetings
<tsimpson> what would be the point in that if 4 others will attend?
<tsimpson> or what if something unexpected comes up?
<rww> and what if you think you'll be attending but you rely on broken closed-source calendaring software... ;)
<Seeker`> ok, how many people on the IRCC categorically said they wouldn't be here tonight?
<Pici> none.
<serfus> rww, you should not rely on it, just check the UTC time
<Pici> Thats why I think its a calendar issue.  The Ubuntu Women team had the same problem with their last meeting.
<rww> serfus: I'm here, and thus evidently figured this out :)
<Pici> I noted the discrepency earlier, but none of the other irccers were around to see it (and their idle times seem to prove that)
<serfus> rww, of course i'm not accusing you, you are here :)
<rww> Is there anything going on at 2100UTC? If not, and the other IRCC people might turn up then...
<tsimpson> it's the only meeting scheduled for today
<Pici> No, no other teams even have meetings today.
<rww> then assuming the two of you aren't busy then, we could postpone until 2100UTC. If there are still only the two of you, Seeker`'s point becomes more valid ;P
<rww> Pici, tsimpson: Thoughts?
<tsimpson> rww: we'll see if anyone shows
<Pici> yep
<Seeker`> soooooo, timewasting or not? Now is the time to speak up
 * Pici shrugs
<Seeker`> I once again suggest that IRCC members should send an email to the list if they aren't going to be at a meeting.
<Seeker`> Pici: I won't be at any more IRCC "meetings"; Please take over discussion of the item I placed on the agenda, if you are able.
<Pici> Seeker`: Will do.
<Pici> Sorry for wasting everyone's time today.
<serfus> isn't there any item at all that you can at least discuss about?
<LjL> the two of you could play Pong and we cheer
<cody-somerville> how many people are on the IRCC?
<tsimpson> 5
<tsimpson> serfus: I suggested that earlier
<cody-somerville> so I guess you guys don't have enough for quorum? :(
<tsimpson> nope, only 2
<serfus> tsimpson, i guess you could discuss about the first 2 items on the agenda
<tsimpson> serfus: apparently that's not acceptable, and the meeting time is over anyway
<serfus> ah
<Seeker`> I never said it "wasn't acceptable"
<Seeker`> just questioned if it was a good use of time, as it will all have to be  discussed again next time
<cody-somerville> not necessarily if meeting minutes are sent out
<Seeker`> one of the items on the agenda is that not happening :P
<Seeker`> one of the items on the agenda is that not happening :P
<cody-somerville> haha
<cody-somerville> touche
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-11-14
 * ziggyfish is away: I'm busy
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-11-07
<mdeslaur> jdstrand, sbeattie, jjohansen, micahg, tyhicks: meeting?
<jjohansen> \o
<tyhicks> Hello
 * sbeattie waves
<micahg> o/
<kees> \o
<jdstrand> oh yes
<jdstrand> (sorry)
<jdstrand> I adjusted the clendar and everything, and then still got confused
 * jdstrand hates DST
<jdstrand> mdeslaur, sbeattie, micahg, tyhicks, jjohansen: I'm here for the meeting now
<jjohansen> \o/
<jjohansen> :)
<jdstrand> I apologize for being late
<micahg> ok, we only have 45 minutes :)
<jdstrand> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Nov  7 18:16:28 2011 UTC.  The chair is jdstrand. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<jdstrand> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<jdstrand> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Announcements
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Announcements
<jdstrand> Team attended UDS last week. It was a very busy week and we have a lot to do. For details, see http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-p and our blueprints at https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu?searchtext=security-p
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<jdstrand> I'll go first
<jdstrand> I have a bunch of updates I am working on, so will continue with those
<jdstrand> I've got a bit of an email backlog that I need to tend to
<jdstrand> I'm also going through my merges today, and getting to some of them
<jdstrand> I will be patch piloting this week
<jdstrand> and then there is UDS aftermath (eg, discussing work items, prioritizing, etc)
<jdstrand> that's it from me
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: you're up
<mdeslaur> I'm currently testing tomcat6 updates, hopefully I'll get them out today or tomorrow morning.
<mdeslaur> I'm also working on some embargoed issues
<mdeslaur> and have a few more packages to test that are ready to publish
<mdeslaur> This week, we'll be going through the blueprints and assigning and prioritizing work items...We'll talk more about that once everyone has done their status report
<mdeslaur> that's it from me. sbeattie, you're up
<sbeattie> I'm on triage this week
<sbeattie> I've got updates for openjdk, apache, and squid that I need to test and publish, with more in the pipeline.
<sbeattie> I also need to a bit of post UDS cleanup
<sbeattie> I think that's it for me
<sbeattie> micahg: poke
<micahg> I've got Mozilla updates, short week (off Wed and Thu), have to look into the DigiCert issue that Mozilla posted to see if we need other updates for it, some Chromium testing, that's it for me
<jjohansen> I guess thats me up them
<jjohansen> I have some kernel work flow (2 kernels), an email backlog, UDS aftermath (work item priorities, and apparmor ml follow on discussions), bug #810270, and starting on policy stacking
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 810270 in openldap (Ubuntu Oneiric) "AppArmor profiles need updates for /var/run â /run and /var/lock â /run/lock and /dev/shm â /run/shm" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/810270
<jjohansen> ah gah, wrong bug#
<jjohansen> now /me has to dig through the bugs instead of notes
<sbeattie> hehe
<jjohansen> anyways its the alias bug cboltz brought up
 * sbeattie marks jjohansen down for post-UDS organizational cleanup, too.
<jjohansen> hehe, yeah
<jdstrand> tyhicks: you're next
<tyhicks> ack
<tyhicks> I'm in the happy place this week
<tyhicks> I've got a little bit of a start on a freetype update. I'll finish up that one before moving onto the rest of my security update queue
<tyhicks> I need to finish testing a couple eCryptfs fixes and get them applied upstream A
<tyhicks> ASAP*
<tyhicks> I've got an ubuntu-security-sponsors update that spilled over from last week, while at UDS, that I want to get to before mdeslaur does
<tyhicks> jdstrand: that's it
<mdeslaur> oh! yeah, I'm on community this week also
<jdstrand> cool, thanks
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
<jdstrand> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so. See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Securi
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/lastfm.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/yaws.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/libmojolicious-perl.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/tinyproxy.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/gromacs.html
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
<mdeslaur> jdstrand: your blurb got truncated there ^
<jdstrand> meh
<jdstrand> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.
<jdstrand> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
<jdstrand> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
<mdeslaur> jdstrand: shall we discuss blueprints/work items now?
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: sure, go for it
 * jdstrand hands the mic to mdeslaur 
<mdeslaur> is this on? <tap><tap>
<jdstrand> hehe
 * jdstrand actually heard the tap in his head. kinda weird
<mdeslaur> so, this week we'll be going through the blueprints to 1- assign work items, 2- prioritize work items
<mdeslaur> jdstrand, sbeattie, micahg, tyhicks, jjohansen: could you please go through your blueprints and create work items for the ones that currently don't have any? This needs to be done before wednesday so we can then prioritize them
<mdeslaur> also, if you see work items you would like, please mark your named next to them to make it easier once we go down the list
<micahg> mdeslaur: not before Wed, I can do it Friday
<jdstrand> jdstrand: ack
<jjohansen> mdeslaur: ack
<tyhicks> mdeslaur: ack
<jjohansen> jdstrand: perhaps you meant mdeslaur?
<jjohansen> :)
<jdstrand> hah
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: ack
<tyhicks> jjohansen: No, he's talking to himself again :)
<mdeslaur> in particular, the following don't currently have work items: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/security-p-ecryptfs , https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/security-p-mozilla-lts , https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/security-p-apparmor-ubuntu
<jdstrand> jjohansen: ;)
<jdstrand> I've got the last one
<micahg> I have the middle one :)
<tyhicks> I've got the eCryptfs one
<mdeslaur> no fistfights, how nice :)
<sbeattie> mdeslaur: okay
<jdstrand> micahg: can you at least do a quick first pass on that bp? I don't think there is a ton and it will help mdeslaur
<jdstrand> (friday is too late for the release status meeting)
<micahg> ACK, will try
<jdstrand> micahg: if not, we can do a first pass
<mdeslaur> so, on wed, we'll be going down the list and making sure they're assigned to the right people, and prioritizing them
<mdeslaur> micahg: that's why firefox and chromium are written in C, to give you time to do other stuff while they are compiling... :)
<mdeslaur> ok, that's it for me
 * mdeslaur hands mike back to jdstrand
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: thanks!
<jdstrand> anything else?
<micahg> md5 stuff?
<micahg> or we can save it for next week
<mdeslaur> micahg: what would you like to talk about md5 stuff?
<micahg> about the possibility of enabling a warning in certain libraries that md5 is being used and that it might be insecure if that's in a security context for the duration of the alphas in precise
<jdstrand> micahg: that is a work item in the catch-all. we left it that it would be prioritized with the others, and depending on how it is prioritized, go from there
<micahg> ok
<broder> o/ re: backports stuff
<jdstrand> broder: go ahead
<jdstrand> broder: and hello :)
 * broder waves
<broder> we're now generating a report of backports that have been superseded by security or stable updates: http://people.ubuntuwire.org/~broder/rebackporter/rebackports.json
<broder> (code in lp:~broder/+junk/rebackporter)
<broder> (html-friendly report to come as soon as harvest starts importing again)
<mdeslaur> broder: cool!
<jdstrand> broder: excellent! thanks :)
<broder> state of things looks mostly good. i'm going to be following up with the backports team to try and establish policies for security/SRU backports going forward
<jdstrand> broder: sounds awesome. thanks to you, tumbleweed and the other backporters on following up on this. we'll adjust that work item accordingly
<broder> for the ones where the source release of the backport is deprecated, we don't have the manpower to test replacing them with a backport from a current release, so my proposal is to use the deprecated release as a being strictly better than what's in backports now
<broder> and for all of them, i'm going to advocate reducing the testing requirements from our usual backports requirements so we can try and reduce the friction of getting them in
<jdstrand> broder: I wonder if removing these types of backports would make sense, so others won't get them (since, by your admission, they aren't really maintainable any more)
<broder> hmm...yeah, that seems like it could be a reasonable option as well
<mdeslaur> hrm, at least having them there allows the possibility of them being manually patched for security issues
<jdstrand> nothing saying someone can't still provide said update at a later date
<micahg> if they're not there and someone wants them, they can request a backport from a supported release
<jdstrand> (or do what micahg said)
<broder> right, though for most of these (e.g. libvirt) the burden of backporting them (and testing reverse-dependencies) from a stable release is much higher than just cherry-picking updates
<jdstrand> yep. I gave tumbleweed some pointers on trying to get the lucid libvirt going on hardy, but that is going to be a hairy update
<jdstrand> but that is a corner case-- most aren't like that
<jdstrand> are there any other items to discuss with the security team?
<jdstrand> mdeslaur, sbeattie, micahg, tyhicks, jjohansen: (and broder) thanks!
<jdstrand> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Nov  7 18:56:20 2011 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-11-07-18.16.moin.txt
<mdeslaur> thanks jdstrand!
<sbeattie> jdstrand: thank you
<tyhicks> jdstrand: thank you
<jjohansen> jdstrand: thanks
<broder> jdstrand: thanks :)
<bdrung> !dmb
<ubottu> The Developer Membership Board handles applications for new developer privileges. See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperMembershipBoard and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperMembershipBoard/ApplicationProcess for more details. For DMB attention, try !dmb-ping.
<bdrung> !dmb-ping meeting in a few minutes
<ubottu> bdrung: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :)
<bdrung> !dmb-ping
<micahg> hehe, wrong factoid :)
<ubottu> bdrung, cody-somerville, persia, Laney, micahg, geser, tumbleweed, stgraber: DMB ping
 * stgraber waves
<tumbleweed> o/
<tumbleweed> [OT] jdstrand: err, I recall no discussion of libvirt on hardy. Was that really me?
<broder> tumbleweed, jdstrand: uh, i think that was me :)
<bdrung> cody-somerville and Laney won't attend the meeting
<micahg> well, we still have quorum so we're good i think
<bdrung> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Nov  7 19:03:47 2011 UTC.  The chair is bdrung. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<bdrung> [TOPIC] Review of previous action items
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Review of previous action items
<bdrung> cody-somerville isn't here. so we probably can skip the review of his items.
<bdrung> [TOPIC] Continue discussion about our package set management workflows (review TB feedback)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Continue discussion about our package set management workflows (review TB feedback)
<bdrung> i haven't found the time to catch up the mails from the last few days
<bdrung> should we move this point to the end?
<stgraber> sure
<tumbleweed> IIRC the only response was from sabdfl
<bdrung> [TOPIC] Creation of new desktop-extra package set
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Creation of new desktop-extra package set
<stgraber> tumbleweed: well, it was discussed at the TB meeting, then sabdfl commented by e-mail after the meeting
<bdrung> [LINK] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-desktop/2011-October/003374.html
<tumbleweed> stgraber: ah, I was in the plenaries... Anyway, we can discuss it later
<bdrung> do we have a sufficient package set description?
<micahg> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-desktop/2011-November/003391.html
<bdrung> micahg: where is the description for ubuntu-desktop?
<micahg> the only thing that looks funny in there is ekiga, the rest is fine
<micahg> bdrung: it's a seed, no description needed
<bdrung> micahg: but desktop-extra wouldn't be a seed, would it?
<micahg> ubuntu-desktop packageset = basically anything in ubuntu-desktop excluding stuff in desktop-core and core
<micahg> bdrung: correct, so seb128 gave a rough description
<micahg> NOT IN ubuntu-desktop, but needed for a vanilla GNOME
<bdrung> is this precise enough? how sharp is "vanilla GNOME" defined?
<micahg> idk, perhaps an upstream GNOME link with their base components would be enough?
 * micahg hunts for a SME
<bdrung> SME?
<micahg> subject matter expert
<micahg> bdrung: maybe we should table until someone pops up that can give us more info
<bdrung> k
<tumbleweed> or if that fails, invite a desktop person to the next meeting
<micahg> ideally the person who requested the packageset should be here, but maybe we didn't make that clear
<bdrung> [TOPIC] Serge Hallyn's application for upload rights for the Ubuntu Server package set.
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Serge Hallyn's application for upload rights for the Ubuntu Server package set.
<hallyn> \o
<bdrung> [TOPIC] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SergeHallyn/ServerDeveloperApplication
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SergeHallyn/ServerDeveloperApplication
<bdrung> hallyn: can you introduce yourself?
<hallyn> Sure - I'm Serge Hallyn, member of server team.  I mainly watch the virtualization stack, libvirt, lxc, qemu-kvm, etc
<hallyn> I rarely make any changes without discussing them with someone else first, but sponsoring is much more work to ask of someone, so it seemed best to ask for server set upload rights
<bdrung> hallyn: how good is the relation between the server team and debian?
<bdrung> hallyn: IIRC e.g. qemu-kvm has big difference in both distributions
<hallyn> I like to think it's pretty good.  (getting ready to submit a bug back to debian from an ubuntu one right now)
 * ajmitch had thought that hallyn was core dev already, tbh :)
<hallyn> yes, qemu-kvm is ac ompletely different package in ubuntu
<hallyn> after this next TLS I want to think about merging back
<hallyn> but not for LTS
<hallyn> (s/TLS/LTS :)
<stgraber> As I said on hallyn's wiki page, I've been sponsoring quite a few of his uploads (last being an lxc SRU last week), most were good to upload as-is, the few I changed were mostly to add some stuff that I wanted to bundle in the upload ;)
 * micahg wonders if there will be a new TLS after the LTS
<bdrung> :)
<hallyn> (better than a TPS report i guess)
<bdrung> hallyn: is there something like a server team on the debian side or are you just working with a bunch of different maintainers?
<hallyn> bdrung, different maintainers, though mostly I just work through the debian bug system.  (i do sit on the mailing lists)
<bdrung> do the other dmb members have questions in the pipe?
<stgraber> I don't
<hallyn> I've said this before, but am intending to seek a sponsor soon to get debian DD so I can feel more closely involved
<micahg> hallyn: do you have an interest in any of the other packages in the server packageset besides the few you've uploaded?
<hallyn> (thank you for not pointing out redundancy)
<hallyn> micahg, yes.  For general helping out in early-release syncs for instance
<bdrung> ready to vote?
<micahg> yep
<stgraber> yep
<tumbleweed> sure
<bdrung> [VOTE] Should Serge Hallyn get upload rights for the Ubuntu Server package set?
<meetingology> Please vote on: Should Serge Hallyn get upload rights for the Ubuntu Server package set?
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<bdrung> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from bdrung
<stgraber> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from stgraber
<tumbleweed> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from tumbleweed
<geser> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from geser
<micahg> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from micahg
<bdrung> [ENDVOTE]
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Should Serge Hallyn get upload rights for the Ubuntu Server package set?
<meetingology> Votes for:5 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<bdrung> hallyn: congrats
<hallyn> thanks :)
<micahg> bdrung: jbicha is here if you want to go back to the desktop-extra packageset
<stgraber> hallyn: congrats!
<micahg> at least I think he is
<jbicha> hi, sorry for missing the beginning of the conversation
<micahg> congrats hallyn
<bdrung> [TOPIC] Creation of new desktop-extra package set
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Creation of new desktop-extra package set
<jbicha> http://git.gnome.org/browse/jhbuild/tree/modulesets
<jbicha> we could use whatever is not in main from gnome-suites-core, gnome-suites-core-deps, and gnome-apps
<bdrung> jbicha: does a script/tool exist to format the .modules file nicely for our usecase?
<bdrung> micahg: ekiga is listed in gnome-apps
<jbicha> I don't know what format you need it in, and I don't know if it comes in a simpler format
<micahg> yeah, I see, I'm just wondering how related it is, but I guess that's fine
<bdrung> a plain list of package instead of an xml file would be easier to read, but the xml is sufficient
<jbicha> there's also http://git.gnome.org/browse/jhbuild/plain/modulesets/ but it's the same thing
<bdrung> The description of desktop-extra would be then: "Every package that is NOT in ubuntu-desktop, but needed for a vanilla GNOME. Vanilla GNOME is defined by upstream in gnome-suites-core, gnome-suites-core-deps, and gnome-apps http://git.gnome.org/browse/jhbuild/tree/modulesets"
<bdrung> this sound precise enough for me. thought?
<bdrung> s/thought/thoughts/
<jbicha> that's fine, how about "NOT in main" instead?
<micahg> I wish I could see a textual list of those files before voting
<micahg> yes, this would be a universe only packageset I think
<stgraber> I also would like to see an actual list matching this criteria before voting. The description is fine to review additions afterwards though
<stgraber> (especially as I'll likely be the one who needs to implement the package set, having a list makes it easier ;))
<bdrung> the current list is posted here: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-desktop/2011-October/003374.html
<jbicha> bdrung: that list wasn't compiled straight from the jhbuild list though
<bdrung> we could decide on that list and modify it later using the package description
<jbicha> I could make a list and email it to the DMB list
<micahg> well, still, I'd prefer a textual list of those .module files before agreeing to use them as criteria for future additions
<bdrung> jbicha: can i give you that action item?
<jbicha> bdrung: yes
<bdrung> jbicha: if you write a script, you could share that with us
<bdrung> [ACTION] jbicha to create a list of packages from the .modules files
<meetingology> ACTION: jbicha to create a list of packages from the .modules files
<bdrung> then let's way with voting after getting the list
<bdrung> [TOPIC] Herton Ronaldo Krzesinski's application for upload rights for linux-* packages.
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Herton Ronaldo Krzesinski's application for upload rights for linux-* packages.
<herton> o/
<bdrung> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HertonKrzesinski/PerPackageUploaderApplication
<bdrung> herton: can you introduce yourself?
<herton> I'm Herton R. Krzesinski, I work with ubuntu kernel stable team, looking at the stable updates, tracking regressions, etc.
<herton> I'm doing a lot of stable updates lately, so it seemed a good thing to get upload rights, instead of bugging Steve Conklin or Brad Figg to sponsor them (they also work/worked on the stable kernel stuff)
<sconklin> +1 - sponsoring Herton's uploads has become very boring in the last six months
<bdrung> herton: are you involved in the community outside of the kernel area?
<herton> not at the moment. I have been in UDS, talked with some people, but my are of expertise is more kernel, so I'm more interacting with community in the bug reports about it
<micahg> herton: the earliest upload I see is at the beginning of June, is there evidence of earlier uploads?
<bdrung> herton: you criticise the political structure inside the project. Does this criticism applies only for getting upload rights or are there other places, too?
<herton> micahg: that sounds right, June is when I started pushing the ubuntu kernel updates
<herton> bdrung: for a newcomer it's not very easy to understand everything at the start I think how to get involved, may be there is some improvements that could be done
<micahg> herton: were you aware that we generally require 6 months of sustained contributions before granting upload rights?
<bdrung> herton: did you started with contributing to the kernel package?
<sconklin> Herton has been preparing kernels for longer than six months, and making contributions during that time. It's only that he's started actually doing uploads in the last 6 months
<micahg> sconklin: in the Ubuntu kernel git tree?
<sconklin> yes.
<sconklin> looking for dates now
<micahg> sconklin: I figured as much since he joined the team 10 months ago, but just wanted to be sure
<micahg> er...9 months
<cnd> micahg, I didn't know of any specific 6 months of work for PPU uploads
<cnd> I thought that was for motu or more expansive sets
<micahg> cnd: it's for membership in general not upload rights specifically
 * micahg is worried bdrung's question got lost above
<cnd> ok, maybe this is butting up against the ppu vs ubuntu membership thing mentioned last week
<apw> i will point out that herton has been contributing to the kernle since 2009 though outside of ubuntu
<bdrung> sconklin: do you have a link handy to one commit as prove?
<herton> my first contribution to the ubuntu kernel was to bug https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/636091
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 636091 in linux (Ubuntu Maverick) "Touchpad stops working when wifi/3G connects" [Medium,Triaged]
<tumbleweed> herton: I'm also interested in your comments about bureaucracy. I remember thinking that it was very bureaucratic before I got involved. But I can't remember quite where, and I wouldn't know what documentation needs changing
<micahg> yep, noted in changelog for March
<micahg> herton: thanks
<sconklin> bdrung: no, I can't find it. Maybe I'm mistaken, but I can tell you he has contributed going back some time, as apw pointed out
<bdrung> k
<ogasawara> http://kernel.ubuntu.com/git?p=ubuntu/ubuntu-oneiric.git;a=commit;h=41d202d80e829c0a489119ad63d7ece08a9786da
<ogasawara> ^^ he's actually been contributing since 2007
<micahg> the bug that herton linked shows an upload where he was included in the changelog in March which IMHO is sufficient here
<tgardner> commit 41d202d80e829c0a489119ad63d7ece08a9786da is July of 2007, the first of many
<bdrung> herton: one of my questions got lost: did you start contributing to ubuntu by contributing to the kernel?
<herton> tumbleweed: the wiki has a lot information scattered, it takes some time to read and understand all the membership process. May be a better description in one page of all memberships, a organization structure or picture could help
<micahg> ogasawara: yes, but not to Ubuntu :), we were wondering about Ubuntu specific contributions
<bdrung> e.g. can the bureaucracy come from the kernel package bureaucracy?
<herton> bdrung: yes. In ubuntu I'm started contributing only with the kernel
<tumbleweed> herton: yeah, we are planning on revamping that page
<ogasawara> micahg: hrm, I'd consider a contribution to the upstream kernel a contribution to ubuntu as well since we do base all our bits on upstream
<tumbleweed> ogasawara: sure, but that isn't related to Ubuntu membership
<micahg> ogasawara: it's irrelevant in this case anyways, since he does have 6+ months of Ubuntu contribution
<bdrung> ogasawara: contributing to an upstream project (here the kernel) doesn't grant you ubuntu membership
<bdrung> i am wondering if we should have an other format for presenting the information than using a wiki
<bdrung> a wiki tend to be not structured enough
<geser> like?
<tumbleweed> the packaging guide?
<bdrung> that's the question.
<stgraber> we're already past our allocated time for the DMB meeting, should we vote?
<bdrung> k, let's vote.
<bdrung> before vote: do we have a package set for the kernel?
<apw> yes
<micahg> http://people.canonical.com/~stgraber/package_sets/precise/kernel
<stgraber> yes, we have a package set and associated team for the kernel
<geser> IIRC they are the only one who can upload kernels (not sure if core-devs can do it or not)
<stgraber> ouch, the uploaders part is a mess, yeah for LP bugs... /me goes to poke #launchpad to fix that one too
<stgraber> geser: ubuntu-core-dev is part of ubuntu-kernel-uploaders
<bdrung> [VOTE] Should Herton Ronaldo Krzesinski get upload rights for the kernel package set?
<meetingology> Please vote on: Should Herton Ronaldo Krzesinski get upload rights for the kernel package set?
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<geser> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from geser
<tumbleweed> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from tumbleweed
<stgraber> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from stgraber
<bdrung> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from bdrung
<micahg> +0 I'm reluctant to give a +1 w/out a dev release sponsored upload
<meetingology> +0 I'm reluctant to give a +1 w/out a dev release sponsored upload received from micahg
<bdrung> [ENDVOTE]
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Should Herton Ronaldo Krzesinski get upload rights for the kernel package set?
<meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:1
<meetingology> Motion carried
<bdrung> herton: congrats
<herton> thanks!
<bdrung> should we end this meeting now and defer the remaining application to the next meeting?
<tumbleweed> micahg: in the case of kernel packages, that doesn't concern me too much
<micahg> tumbleweed: if not for the dev release, why are upload rights required?  kernel packages go through a PPA anyways
<bdrung> SRUs need more care than -dev uploads
<micahg> indeed
<bdrung> anyone not having time to process the last applicant?
 * tumbleweed has time
<Laney> I don't think you should be considering components for packagesets
<micahg> Laney: in this case where it's shadowing a seed based packageset, it makes sense IMHO
<stgraber> bdrung: yeah, I think I have time for one more
<Laney> no, it makes sense in relation to the other set
<bdrung> [TOPIC] Stephen M. Webb's application for upload rights for the uTouch package set
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Stephen M. Webb's application for upload rights for the uTouch package set
<bdrung> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StephenMWebb/DeveloperApplication
<bdrung> bregma: can you introduce yourself?
<bregma> sure
<bregma> I'm a software developer, a member of the uTouch team developing touch-based sofwtare for Ubuntu
<bregma> I also occasionally fix other unrelated bugs, for Ubuntu and Debian
<bregma> I have also spent the better part of a decade packaging all kinds of software for other Debian-based distros
<micahg> bregma: what makes you want to join a "cabal of cliquish members"
<bdrung> bregma: do you have a debian qa page?
<bregma> micahg, cliques are only a problem when you're not a member
<micahg> well, some would say that just their existence would be problematic which I think "cliques" is something we try to shy away from in Ubuntu
<bdrung> bregma: are you active on the ubuntu devel irc channels?
<bregma> bdrung, from time to time
<bregma> I mean, I'm usually on the channel, but rarely can answer anything before someone better able can
<jbicha> if Ubuntu development appears to be "a very closed cabal of cliquish members", then we're doing something very wrong
<bregma> yes
<bdrung> bregma: can you give an example in which the ubuntu development appeared as a "closed cabal of cliquish members"
<bregma> but I wrote that on a day I was frustrated
<bregma> well, I asked on #ubuntu-devel what the best format to submit a bug was
<bregma> and the answer was "it doesn't matter" from several responses
<bregma> so I submitted a merge request to the ubuntu source package
<bregma> and the immediate response from a maintainer was 'we don't do things that way"
<bregma> I guess I should have gone back to change my develop application when i was less annoyed but I got busy with UDS and I forgot
<bdrung> some prefer patches and other merge proposals
<tumbleweed> naah, it's good to shed light on problems, that's why that's in the t emplate
<bregma> I understand, but it does not mean it' does not appear like a shibboleth
<bdrung> it's important to talk about problem.
 * tumbleweed is guessing desktop team (which uses non-UDD bzr branches, but plans to migrate, from what I heard at UDS)
<bregma> the docs and wiki are stymying
<micahg> debcheckout can be your friend sometimes :-/
<tumbleweed> and probably an enemy too :P
<tumbleweed> bregma: hrm, how didyou get an @ubuntu.com address without membership?
 * ajmitch still gets confused as to the 'right' way to do things as well, it's not like you're alone in that
<bregma> I've since seen all the changes proposed to the developer application process and other processes, so I realize it's just hard to know what's not easy to learn if you're already on the inside
<bregma> tumbleweed, the guys at Canonical gave it to me, I assume so uploads don;t balk
<bdrung> are there other problematic areas beside getting the correct format of your contribution?
<bregma> just the problem of trying to figure out how the whole system works... I am not a fan of wikis for finding information
<bregma> I didn;t intend to sound like a grouch or anything
<bregma> but a lot of my experience with figuring out how things works ends up with a "well, you just gotta know"
<bdrung> you are not the only one who finds wikis sub-optimal for presenting information
<micahg> bregma: any address is fine for a changelog entry (ubuntu.com preferred once earned)
<bregma> as a long-time Unix developer, I'm used to having to know what the command is before I can find which command to use, c'est la vie
<cnd> micahg, it's a lintian warning if it's not @ubuntu.com, IIRC
<micahg> cnd: only if DEBEMAIL is set to an ubuntu dot come address
<micahg> oops..ubuntu.com
<cnd> hmm? DEBEMAIL is used for the changelog entry
<bdrung> yes if you use dch
<bregma> I do not believe I've used my ubuntu.com mail address for anything except mailing list subscriptions any way
<bdrung> every question asked?
<tumbleweed> bregma: I see you've touched packages outside the packageset you are applying for
<tumbleweed> are you intending to apply for MOTU at some point?
<bregma> some day
<micahg> bregma: is there a reason you've only had one sponsor and therefore one endoresement?
<micahg> *for the utouch stuff at least
<tumbleweed> micahg: I've sponsored uploads for bregma too
<micahg> tumbleweed: yes, but you haven't commented on the APP
<micahg> even as a character witness
 * tumbleweed tends to comment when asked. I was replying to "one sponsor"
<cnd> micahg, for the utouch package set, the number of people available to sponsor is small
<micahg> cnd: core devs can sponsor as can MOTUs depending on the package
<bregma> I've had several sponsors, I just feel really uncomfortable asking for an endorsement
<cnd> yes, I understand, it just seems like the criteria should be lower for ppu
<bregma> there's room in Ubuntu for the less social, too
<tumbleweed> heh
<cnd> tbh, I'm tired of sponsoring bregma's uploads :)
<cnd> he's quite capable
<micahg> indeed, for one package I might agree, but for a set, I would think that there should be multiple people reviewing their work before agreeing
 * tumbleweed sees that he had no problem's with bregma's uploads either (2 sponsorships). They were in perfect shape
<tumbleweed> but I wouldn't endorse from two uploads
<cnd> there's only one person who uploads utouch packages outside of abnormal cases
<bdrung> tumbleweed: even for a package set?
<micahg> bregma: right, but part of uploading is knowing when to ask others and being able to ask others is important
<cnd> and that person endorses bregma to add to the pool :)
<tumbleweed> bdrung: yeah, I'd probably have left a comment
<bdrung> are we are ready to vote or do we need more time to discuss this topic?
<tumbleweed> ready
 * stgraber too
<micahg> ready
<bdrung> [VOTE] Should Stephen M. Webb get upload rights for the uTouch package set?
<meetingology> Please vote on: Should Stephen M. Webb get upload rights for the uTouch package set?
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<tumbleweed> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from tumbleweed
<bdrung> +1 but more than one endorsement would be better
<meetingology> +1 but more than one endorsement would be better received from bdrung
<stgraber> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from stgraber
<geser> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from geser
<micahg> +0 the work itself seems fine and there have been no quick uploads subsequently to fix issues, but I'm concerned about communication with others, it's not just about being social, but about peer review as well, even comments by other sponsors would have been helpful
<meetingology> +0 the work itself seems fine and there have been no quick uploads subsequently to fix issues, but I'm concerned about communication with others, it's not just about being social, but about peer review as well, even comments by other sponsors would have been helpful received from micahg
<bdrung> [ENDVOTE]
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Should Stephen M. Webb get upload rights for the uTouch package set?
<meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:1
<meetingology> Motion carried
<bdrung> bregma: congrats.
<micahg> bregma: congrats
<cnd> thanks all!
<bdrung> bregma: for your next application i recommend to take micahg's voting comment to heart
<bregma> thank you
<bdrung> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Nov  7 20:50:24 2011 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-11-07-19.03.moin.txt
<tumbleweed> welcome to the clique (hopefully) :)
<tumbleweed> next chair?
<bdrung> ups
<micahg> alphabetical order :)
<micahg> cody-somerville: wins
<tumbleweed> I guess we also need to get some of our UDS discussion points into the agenda
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-11-08
<head_victim> Asia/Oceania Ubuntu Membership Board meeting in 5 mins - quick ping for the board - Destine , persia , ejat , elky & lifeless (I can't see the others online)
<ejat> 0/
 * ejat still in jetlag mode .. 
<Destine> head_victim, me too, jet lagged.
<ejat> all 5 are here today ?
<ejat> Destine :)
<head_victim> Ah UDS or other travels?
<Destine> head_victim, UDS.
<ejat> Destine : sad we doesnt meet ..
<ejat> or maybe i see u without noticing u .. sorry ..
<Destine> ejat, I noticed you~
<Destine> ejat, freeflying pointed you out for me.
<ejat> then i should notice u if we are in the community / leadership summit
<Destine> ejat, i went to design/translation sessions.
<ejat> i meet freeflying â¦ is it at the party ?
<head_victim> Ok so we're still chasing 2 for quorum.
<head_victim> Actually, just 1
<head_victim> 4 is quorum if I recall.
<Destine> ejat, he pointed out just on the road.
<ejat> owh okie .. maybe in the next UDS .. hopefully ..
<head_victim> If any of the applicants are here, sorry, we need another board member to make quorum. We'll wait a couple of minutes in the hope that one of them come to the keyboard
<minsikcho> ok :)
<ejat> only minsikcho  here ?
<ejat> how about the others?
<minsikcho> ejat: i've got no idea.... here he comes :)
<ejat> owh okie ..
<ashickur-noor> Sorry for being Late
<ashickur-noor> Is the meeting Started?
<ejat> ashickur-noor : not yet
<ejat> elky ?
<ejat> lifeless ?
<ejat> !ping
<ubottu> another contentless ping... sigh...
<Destine> freeflying, ?
<Destine> ejat, I feel like a sleep and a breakfast...
<ejat> :)
<ejat> gosh .. it took me 36hours to arrive MY
<ejat> itnet7 â¦
<Destine> ejat, I got about 24 hours.
<ashickur-noor> BTW EID Mubarak to all
<ejat> EID mubarak to u too ashickur-noor
<Destine> ejat, ashickur-noor i did not follow you...
<ejat> follow ?
<ashickur-noor> Greeding of our holly Festival of Muslim
<ejat> head_victim : 3 people only ?
<Destine> ashickur-noor, I see.
<head_victim> ejat: at this point there are only Destine, yourself and I present :/ We need 4 for quorum.
<ejat> yups â¦
<Destine> head_victim, and what do we do...
<ejat> wanna ask help from other region ?
<head_victim> ejat: read my mind (I just hit enter in -community)
<ejat> yeah â¦
<ejat> i saw it ..
<ejat> :)
<head_victim> ashickur-noor, minsikcho and any other applications, just to keep you in the loop we're trying to round up some other members to assist in making quorum ( the number of members required for voting in the meeting)
<minsikcho> head_victim no problem :)
<ejat> almost 20 minutes delay â¦ ..
<lifeless> ejat: hi
<lifeless> am here, just tired :) (23:16 now)
<ejat> finally .. l
<head_victim> lifeless: you able to stay awake for the meeting? If so we can start
 * ejat hopefully lifeless can .. 
<lifeless> head_victim: I should be able to :)
<lifeless> we will see
<head_victim> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Nov  8 10:17:03 2011 UTC.  The chair is head_victim. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<head_victim> #chairs ejat Destine lifeless
<head_victim> happyaron doesn't appear to be here?
<head_victim> #chair ejat Destine lifeless
<meetingology> Current chairs: Destine ejat head_victim lifeless
<Destine> head_victim, happyaron does not have to be now. He is for renewal.
<head_victim> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/AsiaOceania
<head_victim> Destine: good point, I'll shoot them an email if everyone is ok with that?
<ejat> go by ashickur-noor 1st ?
<head_victim> #action head_victim to email happyaron and advise self renewal acceptable
<meetingology> ACTION: head_victim to email happyaron and advise self renewal acceptable
<ashickur-noor> I am ready
<Destine> head_victim, and Community council said renewal can be done automatically.
<Destine> ashickur-noor, ok.
<head_victim> #topic ashickur-noor
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: ashickur-noor
<head_victim> So we're going to try and be quick to get through them all, we will have time to give more detailed feedback after the meeting. Just so you all don't feel like we're being too short we want to get through the 4 applicants in the remaining time
<head_victim> ashickur-noor: so I see you have organised some gatherings since you last application (last month wasn't it?)
<ashickur-noor> yes
<head_victim> That is exactly the sort of activity we like to see.
<ashickur-noor> ya I understood it on last meeting
<ashickur-noor> And when you give me confirmation that any body can arrange Ubuntu program I start to plan for that
<head_victim> So that ticks the significant activity (I would like to see it written up better perhaps as not everyone would be on the same mailing lists) , but I personally would like to see the sustained aspect. So basically continue with what you're doing for a cycle or so is my recommendation.
<ashickur-noor> to gather our Old and new community people
<head_victim> ashickur-noor: I've never known restrictions on who can and cant' do what as long as the Code of Conduct is followed.
<ashickur-noor> I know that
<head_victim> Do any of the other board members have questions?
<ashickur-noor> But I told in last meeting that some one has face problem to organize program by using Ubuntu name
<head_victim> ashickur-noor: I don't understand that issue, perhaps we can talk in more depth at the conclusion of the meeting or perhaps on the loco-contacts mailing list?
<lifeless> http://www.ubuntu.com/aboutus/trademarkpolicy
<lifeless> is likely the thing
<head_victim> lifeless: yes but anyone can organise an event to promote ubuntu as long as the CoC is followed
<lifeless> CoC & TM policy
<lifeless> but yes; my point is merely that ashickur-noor *can* do things as long as following the (simple) rules
<head_victim> lifeless: agreed and also OT for this meeting.
<ashickur-noor> I need some break
<head_victim> #voters lifeless Destine ejat head_victim
<meetingology> Current voters: Destine ejat head_victim lifeless
<ashickur-noor> I will come with in 5 min
<ashickur-noor> Pls
<lifeless> I'm just reading your wiki page
<head_victim> lifeless: no problems.
<Destine> ashickur-noor, reading too.
<lifeless> head_victim: relevant to the extent of understanding ashickur-noor's limitations :)
<head_victim> Ah sorry I'd read it last meeting already so I'm up to speed
<lifeless> ashickur-noor: do you know any other Ubuntu members that might be able to give you a testimonial ?
<lifeless> I'm +0
<head_victim> #votesrequired 1
<meetingology> votes now need 1 to be passed
<lifeless> need more sustained; and would like to see some networking with other members (such that some of them wish to say they want you as a member - which is what a testimonnial is :))
<lifeless> +0
<head_victim> #vote If board members can please vote on ashickur-noor's Ubuntu Membership
<meetingology> Please vote on: If board members can please vote on ashickur-noor's Ubuntu Membership
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<ejat> +0 need to do some more contribution ...
<meetingology> +0 need to do some more contribution ... received from ejat
<ashickur-noor> sorry I have some argent call from my family
<lifeless> head_victim: meetingology hasn't registered me ?
<head_victim> +0 I think ashickur-noor you have shown effort in organising the events but Ubuntu Membership requires a sustained and significant involvement. If you were able to sustain this effort and document your efforts better I would be able to approve your application
<meetingology> +0 I think ashickur-noor you have shown effort in organising the events but Ubuntu Membership requires a sustained and significant involvement. If you were able to sustain this effort and document your efforts better I would be able to approve your application received from head_victim
<lifeless> +0 need more sustained; and would like to see some networking with other members (such that some of them wish to say they want you as a member - which is what a testimonnial is :))
<meetingology> +0 need more sustained; and would like to see some networking with other members (such that some of them wish to say they want you as a member - which is what a testimonnial is :)) received from lifeless
<head_victim> lifeless: sorry you hit it just before I started the vote
<lifeless> head_victim: ah, np
<head_victim> #votesrequired 3
<meetingology> votes now need 3 to be passed
<Destine> +0
<meetingology> +0 received from Destine
<head_victim> Sorry I got that wrong, we need 3 +1's to pass not just 1 if we're using the 0's
<head_victim> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: If board members can please vote on ashickur-noor's Ubuntu Membership
<meetingology> Votes for:0 Votes against:0 Abstentions:4
<meetingology> Motion denied
<head_victim> ashickur-noor: I think you've shown effort in your contributions but I would like to see them sustained and some better documented evidence (I realise you're gone now but you can read this when you return to the scren)
<Destine> ashickur-noor, i think you'd better come back a bit latter to ensure sustained effort.
<lifeless> ashickur-noor: similar from me; its great you are getting involved, and if you keep doing some regular local meetings I'm sure you'll be granted membership easily
<head_victim> ashickur-noor: and more than willing to go through some more feedback after the meeting or via email especially about any resistence you're finding to holding events.
<head_victim> #topic MinSikCHO
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: MinSikCHO
<minsikcho> ok.. me now...
<head_victim> minsikcho: hi there, can you please give us a couple of sentences to introduce yourself? I'm Jared so I am the one responding via email so I know where you're coming from but others may not.
<ejat> minsikcho : a part of android translation .. anything else u do contribute to ubuntu ?
<minsikcho> Umm. to introduce myself briefly, i'm a teen in Korea, and I'm attending at international school..
<minsikcho> About android, I translated ADW. Launcher, and desk notes, which former one was done by changing strings.xml, and last one by web client.. They are all listed as official translation for korean android market :)
<ejat> sorry for that â¦ minsikcho : are u joing the korean loco team ? or doing the Ubuntu translation at launchpad ?
<minsikcho> ejat: yes i'm at korean loco and korean translators for ubuntu, ubuntu translation @ launchpad
<head_victim> minsikcho: ok looking at your wiki page and the mailing list questions, I just want to let you know Ubuntu Membership is a reward as such for significant and sustained contributions to Ubuntu. It's not so that you can start work on it, anyone can work on Ubuntu with or without membership.
<minsikcho> other than translations, i'm trying to spread words about ubuntu in Korea, which windows has almost 7-80% of share
<ejat> because i saw u just join it ..
<minsikcho> ejat: yup i consider that as drawbacks of myself..
<ejat> and all the karma collection just 3 days ago â¦ btw .. its a good start :)
<minsikcho> before i went to loco translation team, i didn't know that i should go through some limit to translate. So, i saw my translations were just showed 'suggestion' or something
<head_victim> minsikcho: I agree you're going about joining in the community well. I'm ready to vote
<Destine> head_victim, ready too.
<head_victim> Anyone else have any questions for minsikcho ?
<head_victim> #vote If board members can please vote on minsikcho's Ubuntu Membership when ready
<meetingology> Please vote on: If board members can please vote on minsikcho's Ubuntu Membership when ready
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<head_victim> +0 I think you are making really good inroads into the community. Ubuntu membership however requires significant and sustained contributions to the community. So if you continue as you are then I would suggest keeping documentation on your efforts, getting some of your team members to give you testimonials and reapply in a cycle or so.
<meetingology> +0 I think you are making really good inroads into the community. Ubuntu membership however requires significant and sustained contributions to the community. So if you continue as you are then I would suggest keeping documentation on your efforts, getting some of your team members to give you testimonials and reapply in a cycle or so. received from head_victim
<ejat> +0 keep up the good work and do please sustain it
<meetingology> +0 keep up the good work and do please sustain it received from ejat
<Destine> +0 I need to see a *sustained* contribution to Ubuntu.
<meetingology> +0 I need to see a *sustained* contribution to Ubuntu. received from Destine
<lifeless> +0 - membership comes after significant and sustained contributing :)
<meetingology> +0 - membership comes after significant and sustained contributing :) received from lifeless
<head_victim> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: If board members can please vote on minsikcho's Ubuntu Membership when ready
<meetingology> Votes for:0 Votes against:0 Abstentions:4
<meetingology> Motion denied
<head_victim> minsikcho: you're starting out right, just keep at it :) Ubuntu Membership is given to those who have already contributed though, not those about to start.
<minsikcho> ok :) thanks for evaluating my contributions on ubuntu :) i strongly believe that it will be a nice motive for me to keep working :)
<head_victim> We're on a tight schedule so if you want further feedback please either email the board or hang around after the meeting, we're more than willing to help just trying to get through the applications tongiht :)
<Destine> minsikcho, keep up your good work and come back.
<minsikcho> destine: yes :)
<head_victim> Actually,
<head_victim> I can't see either kokoye or bonepyaesone here
<Destine> head_victim, can you read kokoye's wiki? can you paste it to us?
<lifeless> 23:46 [freenode] -!- There is no such nick kokoye2007
<lifeless> 23:46 [freenode] -!- There is no such nick boneyaesone
<lifeless> 23:46 [freenode] -!- There is no such nick Bone_Pyae
<lifeless> so neither are online
<head_victim> Destine: actually, I haven't been able to read it myself. It's possible that it's in a language I don't have installed
<ejat> shall we adjoint/end the meeting ?
 * ejat too cant read it .. 
<Destine> head_victim, that's ...
<head_victim> Well, if ashickur-noor or minsikcho wanted further feedback we can use the next 5 - 10 mins for that if they'd like.
<ashickur-noor> Yap
<head_victim> Anyone upset if I endmeeting?
<ashickur-noor> I want
<Destine> ashickur-noor, go ahead.
<M0hi> Destine: I think he needs some feedback from the board
<ashickur-noor> I want to know who can give me testimonials
<Destine> ashickur-noor, someone who is preferably a Member and who knows you well about you work.
<head_victim> ashickur-noor: basically with your application, I believe you're starting to do the right things. For Ubuntu Membership the requirements are listed at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership and require sustained commitment
<M0hi> ashickur-noor: People who know about your contributions can write you a testimonial. It will be having credits if you have testimonials from the Ubuntu community
<lifeless> I'm sure there are other Ubuntu members in bangladesh
<ejat> agreed with lifeless
<lifeless> if you get to know them, and they see how you are contributing to Ubuntu, they may give you a testimonial
<head_victim> But yes, having people validate your efforts always helps. If they can say " ashickur-noor was the main organiser of the event where x number of people got together and socialised/installed/etc about Ubuntu" that would be perfect.
<ejat> gtg â¦. catch up with u guys later â¦ thanks to every one who join the meeting .. .
<minsikcho> do they are required to be ubuntu members, or other ubuntu contributors or also allowed?
<ashickur-noor> frankly speaking Our Community members are soo busy
<ashickur-noor> they don't have much time to do so
<head_victim> minsikcho: don't have to be, but are preferred because other Ubuntu members have already been through the process so understand what is required.
<head_victim> ashickur-noor: offer to help them out :)
<Destine> ashickur-noor, or talking to them about the importance.
<minsikcho> head_victim: is there like a list of people on the membership?
<head_victim> minsikcho: you seem keen on translations, surely there are translators in your LoCo that are members?
<Destine> minsikcho, Yes, on the wikipage you registered yourself.
<head_victim> Also, translation efforts are easier to quatify on launchpad, we can see what karma you have from translations which helps (it's not the only thing we look for but is another indicator)
<minsikcho> yes mostly translations :)
<minsikcho> head_victim: got a findout :)
<ashickur-noor> Can any body give me some idea how can I contribute more?
<lifeless> I gotta run; keep strong - we welcome your involvement as it is, membership has a moderately high bar because we don't want it to be something folk quickly 'earn' and then wander away
<lifeless> gnight all
<Destine> lifeless, gnite.
<head_victim> minsikcho: for example if you look at my launchpad profile - https://launchpad.net/~jarednorris/+karma - you can see that I've contributed 16020 translations
<head_victim> Sure I've got it easy, I use an English based language
<head_victim> But it does break down your karma into components.
<head_victim> ashickur-noor: depends on how you want to contribute, are you a loco organiser, a translator, a developer, a bug triager or something else entirely?
<head_victim> Oops, never ended the meeting
<head_victim> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Nov  8 10:58:30 2011 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-11-08-10.17.moin.txt
<ashickur-noor> I am a translator
<head_victim> ashickur-noor: does your language have a translation team?
<ashickur-noor> yes
<head_victim> I would suggest getting in contact with them.
<ashickur-noor> But they are out of touch of me
<ashickur-noor> I have try to reach them several time but
<ashickur-noor> no luck
<head_victim> Ok, well I'd just keep translating and when the global jams come around, try and organise a translation jam.
<ashickur-noor> what is a translation jam?
<minsikcho> head_victim : is there group in launchpad for ubuntu members? that will definitely show if my loco team members are in membership or not..
<head_victim> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Jams/Translations
<head_victim> minsikcho: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntumembers
<ashickur-noor> I contribute to new users of Ubuntu most
<M0hi> minsikcho: Our community has lots of groups. Try getting attached to the group you want to. You will find a lot more people =)
<ashickur-noor> that's why It is problem for me to collect testimonials from the elders
<minsikcho> M0hi: thanks :) i'll look forward to get to know more ubuntu contributors :)
<M0hi> ashickur-noor: I think I redirected you to the place you can fit yourself =)
<head_victim> minsikcho: feel free to keep emailing the board if you wanted more feedback :)
<head_victim> I think there is another emeting due very soon, so maybe we should move this conversation to email or another IRC channel if need be
<ashickur-noor> #M0hi yap
<ashickur-noor> I need it
<ashickur-noor> where to move?
<minsikcho> head_victim : thanks :) i think i need to work on a lot more months for being qualified :) thanks :) 'll e-mail you if i have sth to ask :)
<head_victim> minsikcho: glad to help :)
<minsikcho> head_victim: bye for now :)
<head_victim> minsikcho: hope to see you applying again in the next few months :)
<minsikcho> head_victim : thanks :)
<Destine> head_victim, bye... need to sleep... jet lagged.
<head_victim> Destine: good night, thanks for staying up :)
<head_victim> lifeless: thanks for your help to :)
<Destine> head_victim, nope. teach me how to chair and write the report next time.
<head_victim> Destine: sure, shoot me an email if you like :) They're not hard but just take probably 30 minutes or so to teach each
<Destine> head_victim, thanks.
<head_victim> Destine: hey the more people able to do it the better I say
<freeflying> Destine: how shall I renew my membership?
<Destine> freeflying, I guess you have to put your name on, and we will have to vote... You expired.
<Destine> freeflying, were you actually expired? or only warned that you will expire?
<amithkk> Wait a second, memberships expire?
<amithkk> meetingology: help
<meetingology> amithkk: (help [<plugin>] [<command>]) -- This command gives a useful description of what <command> does. <plugin> is only necessary if the command is in more than one plugin.
<amithkk> Wait, is this supybot/
<tumbleweed> amithkk: memberships expire, but you are given a week (or two?) to renew them
<apw> 7 days warning you are given, luckily noone takes more than 2 days holiday ever
<amithkk> How long does a membershim last?
<IAmNotThatGuy> 2 years
<lag> #libreoffice
<lag> Doh!
<hallyn> \o
<lynxman> o/
<hallyn> Daviey, I do believe you are up this week
<lynxman> hallyn: I reckon Daviey is out today?
<jamespage> I think he only fly home last night....
<jamespage> so probably
<hallyn> roaksoax, wanna do the honors?
<roaksoax> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Nov  8 16:09:38 2011 UTC.  The chair is roaksoax. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<lynxman> jamespage: yeah he returned last night
<hallyn> jamespage, oh, i didn't realized he stayed through monday
<roaksoax> #topic Review ACTION points from previous meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<roaksoax> ALL: review http://status.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ubuntu-server/release-bugs.html and make known any other bugs that need to be added to the list.
<roaksoax> has anyone reviewed the known bugs and determined new to be added to the list?
<hallyn> (i would have thought that was relevant only wrt oneiric release)
<roaksoax> uhmmm maybe someone forgot to update the wikipage and it is badly outdated?
<roaksoax> last time edited is october 18 apparently
<roaksoax> zul: i think you forgot to update the wikipage :)
<zul> there is a meeting now?
<jamespage> I love a clock change
<zul> damn daylight savings
<hallyn> +1
<lynxman> zul: you're late! :)
<roaksoax> alright I guess there's no release bugs then
<roaksoax> lets move on
<roaksoax> smb, jamespage, hggdh to work on triaging bug #790712
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 790712 in linux (Ubuntu Precise) "20110531 i386 server ISO: order 5 allocation failure during install" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/790712
<roaksoax> any updates?
 * smb is not aware of any
<roaksoax> jamespage?
<roaksoax> hggdh: ?
<jamespage> no - I don't think we saw that issue again
<jamespage> i.e. all the automated testing passed OK during the final part of last cycle
<roaksoax> alright, the bug seems to be confirmed and high priority though
<roaksoax> jamespage: anyone care on update the =corect status for it
<roaksoax> ?
<jamespage> ah - sorry I remember now - this can be reproduced - its been worked around at the moment (I think)
<jamespage> we really need hggdh to confirm that tho
<jamespage> roaksoax, please carry it over
<roaksoax> alright
<roaksoax> #action smb, jamespage, hggdh to work on triaging bug #790712 (carry over)
<meetingology> ACTION: smb, jamespage, hggdh to work on triaging bug #790712 (carry over)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 790712 in linux (Ubuntu Precise) "20110531 i386 server ISO: order 5 allocation failure during install" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/790712
<roaksoax> utlemming to figure out qemu image situation (carry-over)
<roaksoax> uhmm i think he is not around
 * utlemming shows up late :(
<roaksoax> utlemming to figure out qemu image situation (carry-over)
<roaksoax> utlemming: any updateS?
<utlemming> that was solved about a month ago, but was never reflected in the updates
<utlemming> they work
<roaksoax> utlemming: alright then, let's move on
<roaksoax> #topic Precise Development
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Precise Development
<roaksoax> Daviey: i guess he is not around?
<roaksoax> anyone has anything to bring up to discussion for p-development?
<jamespage> guess we should all be filling out work-items from UDS
<jamespage> (just in case anyone did not know)
<zul> damn :)
<roaksoax> jamespage: really ?? :)
<lynxman> shocking news
<roaksoax> alright then, I guess that's it
<roaksoax> moving on
<roaksoax> #topic Ubuntu Server Team Events
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Server Team Events
<roaksoax> any new upcoming events?
<robbiew> LISA - Dec 4-9
<robbiew> I **might** be there
<lynxman> robbiew: anyone from the server team going?
<lynxman> *might* be there too
<lynxman> I have a BoF session
<roaksoax> alright, I guess there's no more events
<roaksoax> let's move on
<roaksoax> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
<roaksoax> hggdh: around?
<roaksoax> i guess he is not
<roaksoax> so let's leave it for later if he is around
<roaksoax> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
<roaksoax> smb: do you have any updates for us?
<smb> Are there questions? I don't really have updates
<roaksoax> I guess not :(
<roaksoax> so let's move on then
<roaksoax> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions regarding Ubuntu ARM Server (NCommander)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly Updates & Questions regarding Ubuntu ARM Server (NCommander)
<roaksoax> NCommander: do you have any updates for us?
<roaksoax> or does anyone have any questions for NCommander
<roaksoax> ?
<roaksoax> i guess he is not around either....
<roaksoax> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions from the Ubuntu Community
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly Updates & Questions from the Ubuntu Community
<roaksoax> any updates/questions from the Community?
<lynxman> mcollective is in progress and merging from debian, I had a long chat this morning with the debian package maintainer, we'll work together for future synced ubuntu/debian releases
<roaksoax> yay hurray for lynxman
<lynxman> also we're pulling back rabbitmq packages from ubuntu back to debian
<lynxman> and bringing mcollective-plugins
<lynxman> apart from that there's an issue with the mcollective package dependencies on oneiric (they're not right) will create a SRU later this week if anyone fancies sponsoring
<roaksoax> that's for the updates lynxman
<roaksoax> feel free to ask any of us
<lynxman> roaksoax: will do :)
<roaksoax> anyone else form the community has something to dicuss?
<roaksoax> i guess not
<roaksoax> #topic Open Discussion
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Open Discussion
<roaksoax> anyone else has anything to bring to the table?
<roaksoax> anyone with ubuflu apart from me?
<lynxman> roaksoax: plenty of people :)
 * jamespage has ubuflu
<roaksoax> they should have a doctor and get us flu injections before every UDS xD
<lynxman> roaksoax: UDS is a giant petri dish
<roaksoax> hehe
<roaksoax> anywyas, i think we cna end this now
<roaksoax> #topic Announce next meeting date and time
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Announce next meeting date and time
<roaksoax> next tuesday same time I believe
<roaksoax> thanks all for coming
<roaksoax> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Nov  8 16:31:39 2011 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-11-08-16.09.moin.txt
<cprofitt> hey MichealH
<Unit193> Welcome cprofitt
<cprofitt> thanks Unit193
<MrChrisDruif> 'lo
<IAmNotThatGuy> Hi
<IAmNotThatGuy> Meeting in 7 Minutes
<MrChrisDruif> Great
<duanedesign> o/
<IAmNotThatGuy> heya duanedesign
<Unit193> drs305: Howdy
<drs305> Good evening Unit193
<IAmNotThatGuy> duanedesign, Lets make it =]
<IAmNotThatGuy> Heya drs305
<drs305> Hello all.
<Unit193> Tue Nov  8 23:59:31 UTC 2011
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-11-09
<cprofitt> #startmeeting ubuntu-beginners-team-november-meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Nov  9 00:00:03 2011 UTC.  The chair is cprofitt. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-beginners-team-november-meeting Meeting | Current topic:
<cprofitt> #topic general-discussion
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-beginners-team-november-meeting Meeting | Current topic:  general-discussion
<cprofitt> Hello everyone. Please respond with 0/ are here.
<IAmNotThatGuy> o/
<Unit193> I refuse, I'm not here
<MrChrisDruif> 0/
<duanedesign> o/
<pleia2> o/
<AndrewMC> o/
<Unit193> \0
<IAmNotThatGuy> lol
<cprofitt> thanks for coming everyone.
<cprofitt> There have been a great many changes with our team over the past few months and we need to announce them, but first I would like to go over UDS-P and some of the broader topics in our community.
<PabloRubianes> o/
<cprofitt> There are two 'pads' I want to share with the group.
<cprofitt> http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-p/meeting/19590/community-roundtable-friday/
<cprofitt> http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-p/meeting/19344/community-leadership-summit-3/
<cprofitt> we do not have to read through these tonight, but please bookmark those for later reading
<cprofitt> Overall there is a feeling that was expressed in Jono's survey results that there has been too much 'red tape' in the community. The Beginners Team was victim to this as well. We want to get back to a "Just Do It" mentality.
<IAmNotThatGuy> Sure
<cprofitt> With that mentality goes a responsibility to think about one's actions and ensure that we stay positive or express criticsm in a constructive non-personal manner.
<ashickur-noor> Ok
<cprofitt> The beginners team council has been, to my knowledge, disbanded.
<cprofitt> The team has been made open
<cprofitt> and there is a desire to not use the mailing list as a forum for continued debate that degrades to 'bickering'
<cprofitt> I am positive that all of us want to move forward and would like to put the last seven months behind us
<IAmNotThatGuy> +1
<MrChrisDruif> +1
<ashickur-noor> +1
<MrChrisDruif> (Ow, wasn't a vote ;-) )
<jbicha> o/
<IAmNotThatGuy> he he
<IAmNotThatGuy> hi jbicha
<cprofitt> I learned one important thing from Mark Shuttleworth this UDS
<MrChrisDruif> Which was?
<cprofitt> When I introduced him to Marek (bdfghjk) he asked what Marek liked to work on
<cprofitt> Mark was not concerned with asking Marek to do something for Ubuntu... but what Marek liked doing
<cprofitt> that helped clarify what made the BT a positive force in the Ubuntu eco system in the past
<cprofitt> each person DID what they LOVED to do
<IAmNotThatGuy> Exactly
<cprofitt> they excelled because they were internally motivtaed to do something that scratched their own itch
<cprofitt> that in turn helped others... but it did not feel like work and people were highly motivated
<cprofitt> with that in mind I would like to ask people, in turn, what they WANT to do
<cprofitt> Unit193: what would you like to do?
<Unit193> I'm working on that, but I have done ISO testing with Xubuntu and a little with Lubuntu
<Unit193> I will continue to do that
<Unit193> I have also done support in channels, need to get into that better
<cprofitt> so, to check my understading you are still finding what itch you like scratching the most
<Unit193> Well, in a way
<cprofitt> That is a fantastic answer... and one we will all end up hearing
<cprofitt> Ubuntu is vastly different than the typical proprietary environment
<cprofitt> so it is normal for people to 'find' their itch after exploring
<cprofitt> MrChrisDruif: what is it that you want to do?
<MrChrisDruif> I'm trying to find my way back into Ubuntu, as I've been away in the last months. Trying to help build UBT back to it's former glory looks like a great itch to scratch atm
 * cprofitt nods
<cprofitt> my only word of caution is that we not throw red-tape up
<cprofitt> I fell in to that trap myself and it was non-productive
<MrChrisDruif> Former glory is more then putting up red-tape
<cprofitt> great to have you back MrChrisDruif and I look forward to you helping us reinvigorate the team
<cprofitt> duanedesign: what do you want to do?
<MrChrisDruif> That's more like it, invigorate the team.
<duanedesign> MOTU
 * cprofitt nods
<cprofitt> MOTU
<cprofitt> for those not familiar with MOTU can you share what that is duanedesign ?
<duanedesign> they are the folks responsible for maintaining the universe repository
<duanedesign> they keep a large portion of the packages we use in good shape
<PabloRubianes> duanedesign, I want that too... and MrChrisDruif also
<cprofitt> pleia2: what do you want to do?
<PabloRubianes> the UBT was the greatest team arround....
<pleia2> cprofitt: as of now, I am mostly going to be focused on continuing to recruit BT members for Classroom events
 * cprofitt nods
<cprofitt> classroom events are great opportunities for the community
<cprofitt> AndrewMC: what do you want to do?
<ashickur-noor> cprofitt:  what is can I ask question?
<AndrewMC> I am trying to get more into bugs because I have this vision in my head, if when I am a pilot (I hope to be soon) I trust computers enough to fly my airplane, I want every system to be THAT bug free and dependable, probably sounds strange but its my "itch" to "scratch" :)
<AndrewMC> I have gone idle recently and I am ready to get back going again
<Unit193> pleia2: Announcements in channel help us actually attend too :)
 * cprofitt nods
<cprofitt> Very good AndrewMC, the community needs help with bugs and triage
<pleia2> Unit193: indeed!
<M0hi> Sorry. Bad machine
<cprofitt> ashickur-noor: please ask your question
<ashickur-noor> What is classroomevent?
<cprofitt> pleia2: can you take that one?
<ashickur-noor> cprofitt: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-p/meeting/19590/community-roundtable-friday/
<ashickur-noor> not working
<cprofitt> ashickur-noor: you may have to login with your launchpad ID and enable scripts if you are running no-script
<cprofitt> I can help with the link after the meeting if that did not help
<ashickur-noor> cprofitt: I hvae loged in
<pleia2> ashickur-noor: Classroom is a project where we do IRC-based learning sessions in #ubuntu-classroom https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom
<ashickur-noor> another link works gr8
<cprofitt> we lost Iam...
<cprofitt> PabloRubianes: what do you want to do?
<Unit193> cprofitt: M0hi is still here, jsut bad connection
<PabloRubianes> cprofitt,  I want Motu for me, and working to help spanish speaking community to become less alienated from english
<PabloRubianes> is not english fault but is like two worlds and we are just one
<cprofitt> I think the Loco Council and CC are working on that with language teams as well PabloRubianes
<cprofitt> your work will be much apprecaited
<PabloRubianes> cprofitt, lots of great people are left behind for this... languaje thing
<cprofitt> ashickur-noor: what do you want to do?
<PabloRubianes> it's a shame
<zkriesse> Meeting?
<zkriesse> :D
<PabloRubianes> so work needs to be done
<pleia2> PabloRubianes: we could do a better job of coordinating the classrooms, sorry we've not done so well on it this past year
<cprofitt> PabloRubianes: I believe we will work toward correcting that... and everyone that can help will be much appreciated
<ashickur-noor> I am currently thinking to make some video tuto for my community
<cprofitt> zkriesse: yes, meeting... welcome and thanks for coming
<ashickur-noor> cprofitt:
<M0hi> PabloRubianes, LoCos can try concentrating on that. Lets starts from Uruguay ;)
<zkriesse> cprofitt: ;)
<cprofitt> ashickur-noor: Great. I have done a couple of tutorials... including one on how to make a tutorial
<ashickur-noor> cprofitt: can you give me link?
<PabloRubianes> M0hi, we are working with argentina one
<cprofitt> ashickur-noor: yes...
<M0hi> PabloRubianes, cool
<cprofitt> M0hi: what do you want to do?
<ashickur-noor> cprofitt: one question regarding that
<cprofitt> ashickur-noor: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0Tn3Z8OklQ
<cprofitt> go ahead ashickur-noor
<ashickur-noor> It's about voice
<ashickur-noor> my voice is so bad
<M0hi> Currently, I was not able to spend the time that I've spent before 8 months. I just have one wave running in my mind, saying me that UBT is there and nothing to worry. I just want that wave live forever =]
<ashickur-noor> So what can I do about the Voice?
<M0hi> I am now restricted with the time I spend. But I will help in documentation and the blueprint of our team
<cprofitt> ashickur-noor: I am not really sure about that... I am not fond of my voice, but I do my best
<ashickur-noor> cprofitt:  and describing something do always worst for me
<cprofitt> fantastic M0hi; one key aspect of being a leader in the community is realizing what you can and can not do...
<cprofitt> I respect that you are busy and glad that you acknowledge that as well
<cprofitt> it is important for people to be realistic with what they can take on
<cprofitt> zkriesse: what do you want to do?
<zkriesse> sorry i gotta run
<zkriesse> Not what I intended
<cprofitt> no problem zkriesse
<cprofitt> alright...
<ashickur-noor> cprofitt: nice Idea
<cprofitt> so I have asked you all that question, but now I need to answer it
<zkriesse> Folks are asking me to run to the store so off I go :P
<zkriesse> cprofitt: I'll pm you later in response to this?
<cprofitt> I originally migrated to Ubuntu to learn programming that was not Windows oriented... I am, at my day job, a systems administrator and used to helping folks.
<cprofitt> I did a lot of that and also found that there was not an active community in my area
<ashickur-noor> I have something big in my mind but need help
<cprofitt> I started doing help and community building and did not have time for programming
<M0hi> ashickur-noor, After charles =]
<cprofitt> so one of my focuses for this next six months is to add 'programming' back in to my things to do
<cprofitt> as it is the original 'itch' I had and one I did not scratch for three years
<cprofitt> At the same time I learned that I truly love to help and build the community
<cprofitt> so one other thing to keep in mind is that the journey may twist in ways you do not expect
<ashickur-noor> cprofitt:  I am as like you
<cprofitt> just make sure to enjoy the journey
<PabloRubianes> cprofitt, I agree
<M0hi> +1
<cprofitt> ashickur-noor: what is the big thing you wanted to mention
<PabloRubianes> so I think is time to start over? but with GREAT ATTITUDE!
<cprofitt> coalwater: what do you want to do?
<ashickur-noor> cprofitt:  arranging some program in my Country
<ashickur-noor> called ``Ubuntu Day''
 * cprofitt listens
<Unit193> coalwater is on phone
<ashickur-noor> but I have no idea what think I do for that
<coalwater> about what, I just joined
<Unit193> coalwater: WHat do you want to do in the community?
<MrChrisDruif> ashickur-noor; Not to burst any bubbles, more to give you direction: we've got the Ubuntu Global Jam already, maybe worth looking into?
<cprofitt> ashickur-noor: I am not sure about how to do that either, but randall ross from vancouver would be a fantastic resource for that
<coalwater> umm , I like solving bugs lol
<cprofitt> ashickur-noor: https://launchpad.net/~rrnwexec
<cprofitt> try contacting him... he has a passion that will astound and a great deal of experience organizing large events
<ashickur-noor> +1
<coalwater> I really liked 'lernid'
<cprofitt> the Ubuntu France team is also incredible with what they do
<M0hi> ashickur-noor, I just saw you idling in #ubuntu-bd team. Just try to pull in more people, market about IRC and get visitors, Start planning for an activity and bring it on
<ashickur-noor> OK I will
<cprofitt> ashickur-noor: I will say... just start and event... even if you only get two people to show up you got it off the ground and it can grow
<cprofitt> that is what I did in my area
<ashickur-noor> M0hi: I told you last night ubuntu-bd members are too busy
<M0hi> cprofitt, So, are we going to discuss about the ideas accepted before and the action items?
<cprofitt> alright... so our new moto is...
<cprofitt> JUST
<cprofitt> DO
<cprofitt> IT
<M0hi> I need a like button here ;]
<cprofitt> M0hi: I am not sure what has been accepted and not...
<coalwater> what kind of things for the community are we talking about
<ashickur-noor> they are even not free in weekdays
<cprofitt> from my understanding most of the structure was removed
<ashickur-noor> +1
<Unit193> coalwater: Support, devel, bugs, etc. Anything you can think of really
<ashickur-noor> M0hi: do we have a FB page?
<cprofitt> I think the message bodhi wanted to get out is to not worry about strucutre... just engage with what you like to do
<Mohan_chml> Sorry for my connections
<MrChrisDruif> cprofitt; how about the council? Does it still exist?
<coalwater> o ok,thought we were talking about events only
<Mohan_chml> Let me shortly tell all the -restructuring plans
<cprofitt> MrChrisDruif: No, the council does not exist
<Mohan_chml> 1) There will be no members and council. We all are equal and anyone can come forward and propose his/her plan.
<Mohan_chml> They can work on that Idea and can get volunteers for their work
<AndrewMC> but there is still someone in authority to deal with those plans? if not how does that work
<Unit193> Group mentorship
<cprofitt> AndrewMC: the person making the proposal will be in charge of their plans
<coalwater> wont that slow decision making?
<ashickur-noor> AndrewMC:  I agree with you
<coalwater> the no council
<Mohan_chml> AndrewMC, If you post an idea, then you are owner of that idea. So, Just try it  out instead of asking for a vote. If you succeed, we all succeed
<cprofitt> if there is a dispute any respected member of the group can help to resolve it
<cprofitt> Mohan_chml: +1
<cprofitt> we do not want stagnation because a person with a great idea needs to ask permission
<Mohan_chml> AndrewMC, Its like wasting an idea by voting
<cprofitt> I would rather re-direct a little bit than have no action and discouraged members
 * AndrewMC will have to look into this for his own team to possibly implemet
<AndrewMC> sounds interesting
<cprofitt> it is really the roots of the UBT as I knew it
<cprofitt> If you want to be an app developer and have a great idea for an app... do it
<cprofitt> ask for folks who are also interested to help you
<cprofitt> if you run in to issues, ask for help from folks
<Unit193> Although feedback can help...
<cprofitt> if you need testers... ask for help
<Mohan_chml> Unit193, +1
<AndrewMC> I see
<cprofitt> if there is a dispute ask a person you respect
<cprofitt> there is no need for a specific person to be 'in charge'
<AndrewMC> Well I will have ot consider this for my team, it sounds like a really good idea actually :)
<cprofitt> we have many respected members that can be brought in to offer advice or help if you run in to a wall
<ashickur-noor> cprofitt: then they should be listed
<AndrewMC> eye
<Mohan_chml> let me continue the proposal or plan we had in the mind
<cprofitt> ashickur-noor: no, each of us should get to know the people we trust
<ashickur-noor> it will help newbe like me
<MrChrisDruif> Mohan_chml; go on...
<cprofitt> leave the lists for things like the CC and Loco Council
<cprofitt> ashickur-noor: spend time in our irc channel... ask others who they would ask for help
<iMichealH> cprofitt: PM?
<cprofitt> no need for a static list
<ashickur-noor> cprofitt: oh, I understood now
<cprofitt> iMichealH: sure
<cprofitt> if there is a list then there is a chance people might be away for a week
<cprofitt> and your question get old... we need to act like a community... get to know each other...
<Mohan_chml> 2) There will be no voting as I said before. It will 'IDEAS' and 'ACTIONS'. The person who proposes can take the ownership of that idea or if he is not having time, he can give the ownership to someone who will be one working on that idea
<cprofitt> have multiple people we can ask for help from
<Mohan_chml> He/she can get volunteers to work on that idea as we mentioned before
<Mohan_chml> 3) The team is "Open". There is no membership. Anyone can join UBT at anytime and serve our ultimate goal. "Help the beginners"
<ashickur-noor> Mohan_chml:  nice one
<Mohan_chml> 4) We are looking for the support from the whole Ubuntu community to help us work on the Focus groups, by providing some of their time in mentoring people and guiding them to contribute in the future.
<Mohan_chml> for this, we need volunteers to act as a bridge between UBT and other Community FGs
<cprofitt> Mohan_chml: and this time we will not require respected members of other teams wait several weeks or months to get approved... so hopefully we can build that support
<Mohan_chml> okay
<cprofitt> that is one of the benefits of an open team... in the past due to red tape it took too long and some people lost their energy to assist
<cprofitt> people should understand that as we ask for help... some folks may still think we are closed... so we have to ensure they know that is not the case anymore
<MrChrisDruif> Alright, that idea kinda eludes me
<cprofitt> MrChrisDruif: what do you mean?
<Mohan_chml> The FG mentoring structure will be decided in later meetings once we identify POC and the people from the community to start the FG shine
<MrChrisDruif> We still have FG's?
<Mohan_chml> MrChrisDruif, That is secondary
<cprofitt> MrChrisDruif: I think that is still in the process of being decided...
<Mohan_chml> Our primary goal is "Help the beginners"
<cprofitt> we may or may not have formal teams... but there are areas of focus
<cprofitt> regardless of 'strucutre'
<ashickur-noor> FG's whit it is btw?
<cprofitt> if duanedesign wants to become MOTU he will focus on that
<cprofitt> and can help others obtain that goal as well... so that will be his focus
<popey>  /lastlog Andre_Gondim
<ashickur-noor> and what is MOTU?
<popey> bah!
<cprofitt> and those working with him would be a focus group.. informally or formally
<cprofitt> hey popey!!
<popey> hey
<MrChrisDruif> ashickur-noor; FG = Focus Groups, MOTU = Masters Of The Universe
<Mohan_chml> So, we need people for certain places
<cprofitt> we really want people to get re-energized and worry about strucutre later
<AndrewMC> MrChrisDruif: beat me to it :P
<duanedesign> ashickur-noor: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU
<Mohan_chml> 1) A Person to update the wiki regarding the meetings and the ctions happening in UBT
<cprofitt> we definately need a person to do that Mohan_chml
<Mohan_chml> is there any volunteer stepping forward for that?
<Mohan_chml> cprofitt, ;)
<cprofitt> no one said they were interested in that Mohan_chml
<cprofitt> are you willing to take that on until we find a person who wants to do that
<Mohan_chml> Okay then. I will take that on my plate
<cprofitt> I can share that with you if needed too
<cprofitt> I do not want to burden people with minutia unless they want to do it... as in WANT to do it
<Mohan_chml> cprofitt, #action it over me and I will ping you if I feel of failing =]
<cprofitt> #action Mohan_chml will update the BT pages with meeting minutes
<meetingology> ACTION: Mohan_chml will update the BT pages with meeting minutes
<cprofitt> #action cprofitt will be his second or fallback
<meetingology> ACTION: cprofitt will be his second or fallback
<MrChrisDruif> I might be able to help Mohan_chml , just ping me if you need help
<Mohan_chml> MrChrisDruif, Sure =]
<cprofitt> MrChrisDruif: is that what you WANT to do?
<Mohan_chml> if so, put him first then cprofitt
<cprofitt> I want to make sure everyone has high motivation for doing things... and are not locked down with 'tasks' that feel more like work
<Unit193> I can easily paste the stuff meetingology spits out
<MrChrisDruif> cprofitt; I've done wiki's in the past, so it's not too much to ask
<cprofitt> if you truly want to do that... we can make you first MrChrisDruif
<MrChrisDruif> xD
<Mohan_chml> Unit193, you have to edit them :P
<Mohan_chml> cprofitt, Put him first and we can back him up
<cprofitt> MrChrisDruif: I will put you first
<MrChrisDruif> It's not like I'm jumping to do it, I just could help lighten the burden cprofitt
<cprofitt> #action MrChrisDruif will take primary role of posting meeting minutes
<meetingology> ACTION: MrChrisDruif will take primary role of posting meeting minutes
<Mohan_chml> And we need a separate volunteer to monitor the wiki pages and report the out dated contents
<cprofitt> alright
<cprofitt> lets remember to keep motivated... and just do it...
<cprofitt> no need to ask for permission
<ashickur-noor> I can do that
<Mohan_chml> Also, it will eb better if we have Unit193 to update the next meeting date both on wiki and the channels
<cprofitt> I would like to thank Unit193, MrChrisDruif, duanedesign, pleia2, AndrewMC, IAmNotThatGuy, PabloRubianes, ashickur-noor, Mohi, MichaelH, zkriesse, coalwater, Mohan_chml, popey for coming and participating in the meeting
<cprofitt> I hope to see you all next meeting
<Mohan_chml> ashickur-noor, Thanks. Just stick with me or Unit193 who knows about the basic changes
<cprofitt> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Nov  9 01:00:16 2011 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-11-09-00.00.moin.txt
<MrChrisDruif> cprofitt; thank you for leading this meeting, I've got the utmost respect for you
<ashickur-noor> ok
<cprofitt> thanks MrChrisDruif
<MrChrisDruif> Damn, I wanted that IN the meeting =P
<Mohan_chml> cprofitt, Thanks dude. You did awesome =]
<cprofitt> did the logs link post for everyone?
<cprofitt> Mohan_chml: thanks
<MrChrisDruif> I've got the link
<cprofitt> great.
<ashickur-noor> me too
<Unit193> http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-11-09-00.00.moin.txt
<cprofitt> Try to post the logs on the wiki and then send an email to the list to alert people that they are there
<cprofitt> let us take any addiitional business to our own team channel and clear the channel for any others using it
<Unit193> Might be best to have announcements at the end (if there are any)
<cprofitt> Unit193: I agree... we should list announcements on meeting agenda pages too
<MrChrisDruif> Right, let's find that mailing-list again =)
<Mohan_chml> MrChrisDruif, and Unit193 you are responsible for meeting minutes :P make sure that the message is delivered
<Mohan_chml> lol
<Mohan_chml> In the mean time, I will bring/propose a structure for the contents of the UBT wiki
<Unit193> MrChrisDruif: You've got the wiki/ML? Or I could paste it up on the wiki
<MrChrisDruif> ML?
<MrChrisDruif> I'll paste the moin.txt on wiki
<Unit193> Mailing
<Mohan_chml> back to -team to discuss please
<Unit193> Yeppers
<MrChrisDruif> Ow, btw....next time put it in the Fridge also!!!
<MrChrisDruif> Woops
<Mohan_chml> lol
<M0hi> err
<amithkk> !
 * slangasek waves
 * stgraber waves
 * slangasek finds his way back to IRC after logout
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Nov  9 16:02:23 2011 UTC.  The chair is slangasek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e cjwatson barry doko stgraber jhunt ev bdmurray slangasek)
<slangasek> bdmurray stgraber barry jhunt ev cjwatson doko slangasek
<slangasek> ah, topic first :P
<slangasek> [TOPIC] lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: lightning round
<slangasek> and go :)
<ev> whoops, missed that.  Who am I after?
<cjwatson> ev: jhunt
<ev> cool, thanks
<bdmurray> Attended UDS P in Orlando Florida
<bdmurray> updating blueprints with notes from UDS Precise
<bdmurray> investigation into bug 882255 regarding passwordless login and changing of password
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 882255 in gnome-control-center (Ubuntu) "No administrative actions possible (password refused) after enabling passwordless login" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/882255
<bdmurray> added lp_work_item_editor to firefox-lp-improvements
<bdmurray> uploaded new version of firefox-lp-improvements
<bdmurray> review of Oneiric nominations for foundations packages
<bdmurray> update bug bot to deal with bugs with gzipped attachments better
<bdmurray> wrote bug bot function to comment on no package bug reports
<bdmurray> done
<stgraber> - UDS last week
<stgraber> - Looked a bit at bug 876829 (few patches around, none really fixing the issue) and bug 823366 (need to do some testing)
<stgraber> - Testing tracker work
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 876829 in ifupdown (Ubuntu Precise) "Oneiric's ifupdown breaks ip aliases" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/876829
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 823366 in ifenslave-2.6 (Ubuntu) "bond_primary is ignored in /etc/network/interfaces" [Undecided,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/823366
<stgraber>  - http://91.189.93.73 is usually up to date with what's in the branch
<stgraber>  - Secured the XML-RPC API (authentication using a login on the website + a key in the user profile)
<stgraber>  - Initial work on notifications
<stgraber>  - Changed theme to gain more screen space
<stgraber>  - Merged initial report from Jean-Baptiste
<stgraber>  - Update schema and API to support multiple result per user with link to hardware profile and a note with each build (rebuild reason)
<stgraber>  - Improved migration/upgrade scripts
<stgraber> - Played a bit trying to get upstart:i386 to install on my laptop, uploaded most of its dependencies to my PPA but still won't work. Will poke slangasek :)
<stgraber> - TODO
<stgraber>  - Get a test environment for bug 823366
<stgraber>  - Get a test environment for iscsi, then look at the open-iscsi merge (hopefully fixing a few bugs in the process)
<stgraber>  - Continue testing tracker work, now working on finishing the user UI and notifications
<stgraber>  - Make sure all my blueprints are up to date on LP (should be) and cleanup the work items list a bit
<stgraber> (done)
<barry> since uds-p: merged claws, claws-plugins patches from official PPA; bug 884890; working on blueprints; start investigating python 3 for update manager and python-dbus; done.
<barry>  
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 884890 in python-tz (Ubuntu) "Failure to instantiate timezones with well-known names in 12.04" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/884890
<slangasek> jhunt: you're up
<jhunt> UDS last week (still recovering!). This week have worked on updating the
<jhunt> cookbook and going the bugs (had some significant contributions from the
<jhunt> community which is great!!) Worked on a fix for bug 829980 - currently
<jhunt> awaiting feedback on my ppa build from users with "dodgy" battery
<jhunt> hardware. Plan then to merge pad data -> blueprints, and finish rework
<jhunt> on job logging.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 829980 in upstart (Ubuntu) "upstart-udev-bridge eats 100% cpu calling dbus_message_iter_append_basic()" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/829980
<jhunt> â
<jhunt> soz - didn't see the end marker :)
<ev> - Getting back up to speed after UDS.  Filed expenses, filled out the survey.
<ev> - Discussion with Robert around the replacement Launchpad OOPS system he's
<ev>   building, using Cassandra as a backend.  Set up a call with him to brain
<ev>   dump the results of our UDS discussions on the crash DB for Thursday night.
<ev> - Helping someone from the XMBC team get ubiquity working on their stripped
<ev>   down live CD.
<ev> - Blueprints and workitems drafting.
<ev> - Trying to get an apport-retracer instance up and running in the Canonicloud.
<ev> - Looking at AMQP vs Cassandra's asynchronous triggers as a way of triggering
<ev>   retraces of submitted crashes.
<ev> (done)
<slangasek> jhunt: understandable, since he cheesed out and didn't use unicode :)
<jhunt> tsk tsk!
<slangasek> ev: what's XMBC expand to?
<ev> xbox media center
<ev> XMBC*
<ev> err XBMC
<slangasek> ah, ok
<ev> apparently I just cannot type that acronym
<cjwatson> Getting the +1 maintenance team going: this month it's me, mterry, and cyphermox once he gets back from vacation.
<cjwatson> Lots of build fixes and transitions and the like.  Broke cmake/armel (not my fault!), analysed and reported the compiler bug that broke it, and worked around it.  Broke yelp and fixed it.
<cjwatson> Patch pilot on Tuesday morning.
<cjwatson> Fixed casper bug 882308 by request of OEM^WPES.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 882308 in casper (Ubuntu Oneiric) "Choosing simplified chinese in isolinux menu causes corrupted characters and untranslated installer" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/882308
<cjwatson> Experimenting with multiarch cross-building.  I at least seem to have a usable chroot now and have fixed a few packages as a result.
<cjwatson> We almost have the new stonking cdimage master machine!  Working with IS on getting it set up properly, and doing some preparatory work on antimony.
<cjwatson> Drafted foundations-p-image-build-pipeline.  Three or so more to do.
<cjwatson> --
<slangasek> ah, and doko's off this week, so it's just me
<slangasek> halfway through my own blueprint drafting
<slangasek> upgraded to precise this week, have started reporting bugs
<slangasek> filed bugs for the various unity2d inconveniences I hadn't gotten around to reporting before
<slangasek> merged console-setup, will try to forward some changes upstream later to reduce our delta
<slangasek> merged user-setup
<slangasek> pushed a patch to sbuild so that it understands multiarch build-dep syntax
<slangasek> worked on checking the multiarch cross-buildability of a few packages in the base system
<slangasek> got bored with that and decided to go straight for qt4-x11 instead; pushed a bunch of M-A patches
<slangasek> (done)
<slangasek> anyone have questions?
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Bugs
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Bugs
<slangasek> bdmurray: anything of interest from your side?
<bdmurray> Only one bug 834516 which you've touched recently
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 834516 in user-setup (Ubuntu) "Encryped home directory selected but not encrypted" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/834516
<slangasek> cjwatson, ev, stgraber: have you seen any other reports of that issue?
<stgraber> not that I can remember.
<cjwatson> nor I
<bdmurray> I don't see "Cannot get ecryptfs version" in any ubiquity bug report log files
<slangasek> huh
<cjwatson> although it rings a bell, I think I remember fixing something similar
<bdmurray> InstallationMedia: Ubuntu 11.10 "Oneiric Ocelot" - Alpha amd64 (20110817)
<slangasek> oh, it was installed from an alpha?  should we close this out as fixed?
<bdmurray> Well should ubiquity have stopped at that point?
<cjwatson> hm, I was thinking of bug 820460 which was different
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 820460 in user-setup (Ubuntu Oneiric) "User not created with encrypted home partition: user-setup exit code 32" [Critical,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/820460
<jrgifford> there was this bug, which is the exact opposite. - bug #840570
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 840570 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "Forced to encrypt my home directory during Oneric install" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/840570
<slangasek> heh
<slangasek> stgraber: do you think you could follow up on this and see what the source of that error message is?  I'll bet it was a problem with the actual kernel during the alpha and should be closed
<bdmurray> I mean it seems wrong to me for the installation to have proceeded even though ecryptfs wasn't available.
<stgraber> slangasek: yep, I can do that
<cjwatson> hmm
<cjwatson> we || true the adduser call I think because it's possible that the user might already exist in some contenxts
<cjwatson> *contexts
<slangasek> bdmurray: ah, true
<cjwatson> I agree that we shouldn't proceed if it's clearly broken; we just need to be careful not to go too far the other way
<slangasek> so we shouldn't just close the bug anyway, we ought to communicate the missing encryption to the user
<slangasek> stgraber: still yours if you want it :)
<cjwatson> (that || true is very old; I think it may date back to base-config)
<cjwatson> it's in r1 of user-setup
<stgraber> slangasek: I can certainly add that to my low priority list :) If we skip the user creation, we should at least show a warning I'd think
<slangasek> stgraber: I think it's a high urgency to confirm that the underlying issue is fixed in the final release, and low urgency (but not low priority) to not silently skip encryption
<stgraber> slangasek: sounds good
<slangasek> [LINK] http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/kernel-bugs/reports/rls-p-tracking-bugs.html
<slangasek> I think this link has been passed around; hopefully everyone has seen it
<ev> fancy pant
<ev> s
<slangasek> this is the list of bugs that I've committed you to fix for the release so far :P
<slangasek> there are 33 tasks on there for foundations... which is high, but I don't see any bugs on that list that I think are ok for us to ship with
<slangasek> if you disagree you can argue it :), but I'd much rather we focus on getting them fixed
<slangasek> since this is an LTS and we're emphasizing quality, the list reflects that
<barry> slangasek: is there a difference between "Canonical Foundations Team" and "Ubuntu Foundations Team"?
<slangasek> barry: two different teams in launchpad, the latter includes some community folks
 * barry nods
<slangasek> so the challenge I'd like to set for the team is to get 20 of those bugs fixed by the end of the year
<slangasek> no reason to wait until after FF to start fixing them :)
<slangasek> what do you think?
<cjwatson> it can't hurt to try; do you have the current set recorded somewhere so that tracking won't be thrown off by additions?
<slangasek> not yet, but I'll snapshot it today
<slangasek> there are a lot of installer bugs on there to go around, fwiw
<slangasek> so anyone who isn't already familiar with the installer and would like to learn more, now's your chance :)
<jhunt> those two plymouth bugs are the same issue. Would it make sense to make one a dup of another?
<jhunt> only reason I say that being some folks have expressed the view that they don't get notified of changes to the bug their bug is a dup of.
<slangasek> I don't remember why they wound up split
<slangasek> I think it was because the issue was rereported (849414) in a later release than when we thought we'd fixed it
<slangasek> jhunt: if you merge them, please make sure the bug description of the master says something sensible :)
<jhunt> slangasek: righto.
<slangasek> (e.g., reproduce instructions)
<slangasek> cjwatson: that reminds me... is there anything other than ^C that would generate SIGINT on console?
<cjwatson> some random keycode or other with the console in raw mode
<slangasek> heh
<slangasek> just trying to figure out if the bodgy SIGINT handler in the plymouth theme really does explain all the problems we've seen, or if as upstream says there's some other issue
<cjwatson> much like, er is it Enter?, turns into SIGQUIT
<jhunt> slangasek: I've got a systemtap script that logs all SIGINTs system wide if anyone has a system that actually exhibits the plymouth failure on those bugs.
<slangasek> jhunt: \o/
<slangasek> jhunt: we should probably take upstream's advice and nix the SIGINT handler anyway, and then see if the problem goes away
<jhunt> Taking a closer look at the sigint handler, it *does* look safe which is even more mysterious. The only way I've managed to recreate the issue is to fire SIGINTs at plymouthd semi-randomly.
<jhunt> right. All the plugins have the same code seemingly (copy'n'paste.. ? :)
<slangasek> :)
<jhunt> I'm just not sure what the implications of removing that handler are for the plugins - it's not as if the handlers aren't doing anything.
<cjwatson> I don't agree that all of them are safe
<cjwatson> looking at the script handler as an arbitrary example, it frees memory in a signal handler, which is unsafe
<slangasek> the implication is that ^C does nothing, which seems reasonable anyway
<slangasek> and consistent with the other themes
<jhunt> are you sure? I was thrown off track initially as the handlers themselves do dangerous things like modifying linked lists. *But* the handlers are not called when the signal arrives - they are called on the next main loop iteration.
<cjwatson> oh, except that the signal handler doesn't work that way
<cjwatson> you're right, I missed the indirection through the event loop
<jhunt> so, in principle it *should* be perfectly safe.
<jhunt> yeah - it's a mare of code layers.
<cjwatson> well
<jhunt> all the handlers do is write the signal number through a pipe and return.
<cjwatson> ply_write calls assert
<cjwatson> assert is not async-signal-safe
<jhunt> oooh!
<cjwatson> although that should only actually matter if the assert fails, I think
<cjwatson> and if that happened then it would fall over anyway
<slangasek> well, we do have failing asserts in some of the reports
<jhunt> frankly, I wish there were more asserts ther. No alloc calls are ever checked if I recall.
<jhunt> however, they would segv fast I'd hope as the address is immediately dereferenced
 * slangasek nods
<jhunt> hope not being a word I like to use in combo with programming... :)
<slangasek> ok, we can chew on that more offline :)
<slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<jhunt> right
<slangasek> anything else?
 * cjwatson tries to find the list of async-signal-safe functions; I keep losing it
<jhunt> can anyone offer any thoughts on bug 861268?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 861268 in nvidia-graphics-drivers (Ubuntu) "text corruption in terminals (xterm, urxvt) and emacs" [Undecided,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/861268
<slangasek> jhunt: did you not manage to pin down the X guys at UDS?
<slangasek> or did they tell you "oh yeah, binary driver, not our problem"? :)
<cjwatson> oh, there we go, it's buried in http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/functions/V2_chap02.html#tag_15_04
<bdmurray> Looking at recent ubiquity bugs some seem to be about Natty.  I wonder if people are installing it thinking it is the latest.  Or if commenting on them and pointing them to 11.10 makes sense.
<jhunt> slangasek: semi - I spoke to Chris who thought it could relate to the nvidia driver, but the nouveau driver behaves in the same way.
<cjwatson> send() and write() are async-signal-safe, so I've got nothing else that would break in that way
<ev> bdmurray: please point them at 11.10
<slangasek> +1
<ev> we don't fix bugs in non-LTS releases post-release
<jhunt> cjwatson: I've got some tools and scripts that we can use to try and pin this down. Might be worth a bit of pair-debugging?
<ev> for ubiquity, that is
<cjwatson> jhunt: yep, not that I can reproduce it myself
<bdmurray> well so if the same bug happens in 11.10 they'll be at the same place though
<cjwatson> ev: well, except for when we do, but yeah :)
<cjwatson> I think we'll want to do more post-release fixing given the existence and advertisement of live-build
<cjwatson> but sure, it's good to make sure that the bugs are current ...
<ev> I think testing the latest release is a reasonable first pass at triaging
<ev> indeed
<jhunt> cjwatson: signal(7) also lists async safe calls.
<ev> tmux is made of awesome
<cjwatson> jhunt: ah yes, thanks
<cjwatson> I always look for it in the base-definitions section of POSIX and it's not there
<jhunt> ev: +100
<slangasek> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Nov  9 16:53:39 2011 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-11-09-16.02.moin.txt
<slangasek> thanks everyone :)
<ev> cheers
<barry> thanks!
<stgraber> thanks!
<jhunt> thanks!
<nuclearbob> who's ready for the QA meeting?
<patrickmw> hey
<patrickmw> sorry, I was running a little late
<nuclearbob> cool
<patrickmw> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Nov  9 18:09:01 2011 UTC.  The chair is patrickmw. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<patrickmw> [TOPIC] Previous Actions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Previous Actions
<patrickmw> none
<patrickmw> [TOPIC] Community Efforts/Testing
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Community Efforts/Testing
<patrickmw> jibel is out today.  anyone else have input?
<nuclearbob> none here
<patrickmw> TOPIC] Automated/Systems Testing
<patrickmw> [TOPIC] Automated/Systems Testing
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Automated/Systems Testing
<patrickmw> I will go
<nuclearbob> I've got a few things
<nuclearbob> okay
<nuclearbob> you first
<patrickmw> During UDS we have several action items for improving and growing our automated test suites.
<patrickmw> We will be establishing QA submission guidelines for tests
<patrickmw> As well as standardizing how to submit tests to QA
<patrickmw> There are a few more projects added to the backlog which will be prioritized next week in the QA automation sprint.  Expect an update in two weeks
<patrickmw> Go ahead nuclearbob
<nuclearbob> we had a session about the qa-regression-testing code at UDS, I proposed a couple of additional metadata tags that we're working on adding, and we're still determining the best way to specify dependencies across different distro versions
<nuclearbob> during the upcoming sprint I'd like to get some of those tests into jenkins and automatically running on the new lab
<nuclearbob> that's what I've got
<patrickmw> any one else?
<patrickmw> [TOPIC] Engineering Team Bug Status (hggdh, Ursinha, pedro_, bdmurray)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Engineering Team Bug Status (hggdh, Ursinha, pedro_, bdmurray)
<bdmurray> I've nothing very exciting to report
<patrickmw> hggdh, Ursinha?
<patrickmw> k
<patrickmw> moving on
<patrickmw> [TOPIC] Other Topics
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Other Topics
<bdmurray> With all this testing are there any plans to test the minimum memory needed for installing Ubuntu?
<patrickmw> I have not heard anything about that. Is this something that you thought of or was this discussed prior?  We could certainly talk more about it
<bdmurray> Something I'd thought of and that has long needed addressing.
<bdmurray> bug 820842 is related
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 820842 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "Minimal memory requirement (512MB) too low to install Ubuntu Desktop in a VM" [Low,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/820842
<patrickmw> [ACTION] Discuss testing minumum memory reqs with QA team
<meetingology> ACTION: Discuss testing minumum memory reqs with QA team
<patrickmw> ok, I will bring this to the team's attention next week and keep you posted
<bdmurray> Okay, its worth noting that there is an amount put on the CD sleeves which should be verified.
<patrickmw> anything to add?
<patrickmw> thanks, bdmurray
<patrickmw> [TOPIC] Chair Selection
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Chair Selection
<patrickmw> Since the QA team will be in the same room next week we can decide who will run it then
<nuclearbob> sounds good
<patrickmw> thanks all
<patrickmw> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Nov  9 18:23:31 2011 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-11-09-18.09.moin.txt
<nuclearbob> thanks for chairing
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-11-10
<jsolano> help
<mahmoh> fyi: ARM Team meeting was supposed to be one hour earlier, time change messed things up
<ogra_> what means eralier ? its 15:00 UTC time didnt change, your country did ;)
<pedro_> Hello
<SwitchDK> Hi pedro_
<roadmr> hello!
<pedro_> ok lets start with the BugSquad Monthly meeting!
<pedro_> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Nov 10 17:03:17 2011 UTC.  The chair is pedro_. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<pedro_> As always the agenda is available at : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugSquad/Meeting
<pedro_> lets review the action items from previous meeting
<pedro_> bdmurray to create spec for UDS P regarding mentorship program: DONE
<pedro_> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-p-bugsquad-mentoring
<pedro_> spec is there ^
<pedro_> and you can read the notes from the discussion on the notes section
<pedro_> we discussed the mentoring program during UDS
<pedro_> and as you can see there there's a few actions that we need to do
<pedro_> so first point, the bugsquad-mentorship group alpha is going to be closed
<pedro_> we haven't seen a lot of work on that team (almost nothing) so we prefer to close it and start doing other tasks in order to grab more contributors
<pedro_> some ideas that were raised in order to have more people contributing to our team:
<pedro_> create videos with easy tasks like: how to confirm a bug
<pedro_> bdmurray, is going to start to create some of those videos but we also need your help
<pedro_> so please keep tune for the call for help on that subject
<SwitchDK> I would be happy to help with "verifying" whether it works for new BugSquad members (being rather new myself)
<pedro_> other idea that was raised : Start doing workshops on parts of the bug triaging process
<pedro_> with things like: how to search for duplicates, send bugs upstream ,etc ,etc
<pedro_> of course we're going to need some teachers to help ;-)
<pedro_> SwitchDK, that'd be great, thanks :-)
<pedro_> and we have some actions to everybody on the BugSquad
<pedro_> We noticed that new contributors tend to ask questions in private , that's ok but we'd like to encourage those to also do it on the public IRC Channel
<pedro_> there's nothing wrong on asking in #ubuntu-bugs, in fact that's the perfect place for questions related to bugs
<pedro_> and remember that there's no dumb questions :-)
<SwitchDK> Should we update the wiki pages to reflect all mentoring is done through the IRC Channel?
<SwitchDK> and there is no official mentor/mentee structure?
<pedro_> SwitchDK, yes, that's something we need to update
<SwitchDK> i can do that
<pedro_> SwitchDK, that'd be amazing! thanks for helping
<SwitchDK> you are welcome
<SwitchDK> when should it be done by?
<pedro_> We also need to start collecting 'easy tasks' for beginners so that's something we are going to start asking on the mailing list
<pedro_> SwitchDK, no rush, by the end of the weekend i think is fine
<SwitchDK> pedro_, ok no problem, i will get it sorted
<pedro_> i guess that's more or less everything from the blueprint
<hggdh> pedro_: popey also offered to create/help create short videos
<pedro_> notes are there in the blueprint itself and in etherpad
<popey> I did!
<pedro_> hggdh, \o/! awesome the more contributors the better :-)
<pedro_> popey, thank you so much :-)
<hggdh> pedro_: and super-popey knows :-)
<pedro_> oh yeah
<popey> just ping me with what you need, sorry, only popped in because of nickname hilight
<pedro_> hggdh, anything else from your side re the blueprint?
<hggdh> pedro_: no. I am to send a note to all regarding the mentorship closure, and this was it, mostly (given popey coming up)
<pedro_> there was also a discussion of the Community team regarding Bugs but i wasn't able to attend
<hggdh> (and all you already highlighted)
<pedro_> hggdh, were you there?
<hggdh> I was there, yes
<pedro_> hggdh, any highlights to share?
<hggdh> we hammered a bit more on the difference between a bug and an user's problem
<hggdh> the biggest point is users usually do not have bugs, but problems/issues
<hggdh> so sites like askubuntu, answers, fora, etc should be the first access
<hggdh> and we would then (magically) promote some to bugs
<hggdh> additionally -- I proposed harvesting the bugs with workarounds, and publishing them on askubuntu (or somewhere else)
<hggdh> I think I also got this action, somewhere
<hggdh> the whole thing is to make it easier for causual users to find answers for their issues
<hggdh> ..
<pedro_> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/community-p-bug-involvement <- that's the blueprint hggdh is talking about
<hggdh> hell. s/causual/casual/
<pedro_> hggdh, thanks !
<pedro_> ok anybody else, any highlight from UDS you'd like to share?
<hggdh> yw. We will need to formalise a bit on how we mine workarounds, and translation
<pedro_> one of the things that are going to land soon and it looks amazing is the new testing tracker
<hggdh> yeah!
<pedro_> i know some of you guys also contribute to the testing team so if you're interesting have a look to https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/foundations-p-iso-tracker
<pedro_> it looks really great
<SwitchDK> hggdh, could you please let me know before you sent an email to the ML about mentorship closure. It would be great that you in the same email could mention that the wiki has been updated
<pedro_> like no more creating of multiple accounts, you'll be able to login with your lp id *sweet*
<hggdh> SwitchDK: certainly
<hggdh> and being able to look at previous results
<SwitchDK> is the testing tracker only for QA teams?
<SwitchDK> i don't know what a testing tracker is, sorry for my ignorance
<pedro_> and its going to warn you with an email when a rebuild is going on, so you don't waste time testing something
<hggdh> the testing tracker is, pretty much, a point where the formal tests are described/worked on; anybody can participate. Proposing new tests is still to be discussed, but I would expect something like emailing the ubuntu-qa ML, and working out gain/pain, and feasibility
<pedro_> http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/ <- testing tracker
<SwitchDK> ah, thanks pedro_ (the penny finally dropped)
<hggdh> (the old one, the new one is still being built)
<pedro_> indeed
<pedro_> Anything else ? any other highlight?
<pedro_> or questions?
<hggdh> one more
<hggdh> er, \o
 * pedro_ pass the mic to hggdh
<hggdh> thanks. I was gladly surprised on the community bugs session -- much more people than I expected, and most really interested. So, here goes a thank you for all that participated
<hggdh> ..
<pedro_> oh yes! there was a lot of people participating even remotely so thanks a lot :-)
<pedro_> ok if there's no other comments/questions i think that's all for today
 * hggdh is done
<pedro_> remember to stay tune for the call for help on videos/workshops
<pedro_> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Nov 10 17:32:19 2011 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-11-10-17.03.moin.txt
<pedro_> thanks all for participating!
<hggdh> thank you pedro_
<SwitchDK> thanks all
<marcus> ping highvoltage
<marcus> is this the channel for the Ubuntu EMEA membership applicants meeting?
<highvoltage> hi marcus , yes
<marcus> ah, ok ;)
<marcus> i will be away at 20:30 utc. hope that fits.
<marcus> ah sorry, away till 20:30 not at
<highvoltage> Good afternoon
<highvoltage> (slash evening)
<mariot> good evening everyone!
<marcoceppi> o/
 * stgraber waves
<stefano-palazzo> Evening everyone :)
<Oli> Evening stefano
 * george_e waves too.
<marcoceppi> stefano-palazzo Oli rawr rawr rawr!
<highvoltage> right, 2 minutes before we start, do we quorum for application reviews?
 * marcoceppi cheers
 * george_e cheers
<jrgifford> YAY GO Oli and stefano-palazzo!!!
<jrgifford> and Cheesehead!!
<htorque> ditto: \o/ for oli and stefano ;-)
<jrgifford> (i'm not too late am I?)
<highvoltage> czajkowski: are you present?
<stefano-palazzo> jrgifford, you're right on time, I triple checked (:
<jrgifford> stefano-palazzo: YAY. :D
<highvoltage> n0rman: ready?
<mariot> ready when you are
<n0rman> highvoltage: ready
<highvoltage> ok, we're just waiting for one more person
<highvoltage> pleia2: unless you have an hour to spare?
<czajkowski> present
<highvoltage> yay
<highvoltage> anyone want to chair or should I?
<czajkowski> can you please
<highvoltage> Welcome to this month's EMEA Regional Board Meeting.
<highvoltage> Candidates will be able to present themselves one by one in order of the agenda on the wiki page.
<highvoltage> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/EMEA
<highvoltage> Only board members can vote.
<highvoltage> If you'd like to show your support for an applicant, please wait until it is their turn.
<highvoltage> Candidates should prepare an introduction of 1-5 sentences and also have a prepared wiki page for their application.
<highvoltage> Iaian Farell emailed earlier to notify me that he won't be able to make it for this meeting, we'll review his application next month.
<czajkowski> mariot: you're up first
<mariot> Hello World!
<highvoltage> hi mariot, please tell us a little about yourself
<mariot> I'm Mariot Tsitoara, the owner of Malagasy Translators Team
<mariot> I'18 and I'm from Madagascar
<mariot> I study computer science and I come from Madagascar.
<mariot> I'm so happy to be there!
<highvoltage> have you done any work besides which is listed on your wiki page that you'd like to share with us?
<mariot> yes
<highvoltage> Would you like to tell us about it?
<czajkowski> mariot: is there anyone who can vouch for your work here today ?
<mariot> I'm a bureau member of our Linux Club and I support Ubuntu in there
 * highvoltage has no further questions
<mariot> Thank you!
<czajkowski> mariot: anyone here to vouch for your work ?
<highvoltage> are we ready to vote? stgraber, czajkowski, n0rman: do you have any quesitons?
<mariot> None of my friends could be here tonight
<czajkowski> highvoltage: yup
<stgraber> highvoltage: yep
<stgraber> as in, ready to vote :)
<highvoltage> sorry I still need to get the hang of the new bot, so I'll manually make notes one last time
<highvoltage> VOTE: mariot for membership +1 / +0 / -1 (only board members can vote):
<czajkowski> -1 mariot perhaps if you have more detail on your wiki page please come back but at present it's hard to judge.
<mariot> Okay
<highvoltage> +0 [ good translation work but I'd like to see more contributions or more translation co-ordination ]
<stgraber> +0 [ Good activity on translations and answers but would like to see more documented contributions on the wiki page ]
<n0rman> -1 same as czajkowski i think mariot needs to write more about all of his work
<highvoltage> Result: -2
<highvoltage> mariot: sorry you didn't get it this time, you have what it takes, but we'd like to see a bit more from you
<mariot> Ok, I'll contribute more. Thanks for all!
<czajkowski> mariot: thank you
<marcoceppi> Best of luck mariot!
<highvoltage> mariot: we'd like to see you apply again, feel free to contact us if you need some help or advice
<czajkowski> please get some people to leave comments on your wiki page and come back
<highvoltage> is toddy present?
<toddy> That's me. Hi erverybody.
<czajkowski> toddy: hi there
<toddy> hi czajkowski
<highvoltage> toddy: hi! please tell us a bit about yourself
<toddy> yes. tank you, highvoltage
<toddy> *thank
<toddy> My name is Torsten and I am 34 years old. I use Ubuntu since 2006.
<toddy> My most avitivities for Ubuntu I make as a project leader of ubuntuusers.de.
<toddy> In addition, I participate actively in the German LoCo team at Linuxdays and other events.
<toddy> In this year I organzie the ubucon - the german conference of Ubuntu users.
<toddy> More about me you find on my page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TorstenFranz
<highvoltage> Any questions for toddy?
<czajkowski> toddy: nice wiki page very detailed
<toddy> thank you, czajkowski
<czajkowski> you've clearly been active, tell me what you love about Ubuntu and the community?
<stefano-palazzo> I'd like to take this chance to thank you, toddy, for running a fantastic project. The site is a great showcase for what the ubuntu community is all about.
<toddy> thank you, stefano-palazzo
<n0rman> nice testimonials too :)
<toddy> Ubuntu in not only a operation system fpr me, czajkowski - it is a life style. and this way of live I love
<toddy> *for
<czajkowski> toddy: :) ok
<Oli> :)
<czajkowski> I've no further questions
<highvoltage> VOTE: toddy for membership +1 / +0 / -1 (only board members can vote):
<highvoltage> +1 [ great local Ubuntu advocacy and LoCo team involvement ]
<czajkowski> +1 great work keep it up
<stgraber> +1
<n0rman> +1
<highvoltage> Result: +4
<czajkowski> welcome toddy
<toddy> thank you.
<highvoltage> toddy: congratulations and welcome!
<toddy> \o/
<n0rman> welcome toddy  :)
<highvoltage> marcus notified us earlier that he can only be here from 20:30, so we'll move on for now.
<highvoltage> Cheesehead: are you present?
<Cheesehead> o/
<Cheesehead> Hello. My name is Ian Weisser. I live in North America. I'm 41 years old, a non-IT professional. I have three lovely children, I own a violin store, and I teach an officership class at the local university to army cadets twice a week.
<Cheesehead> I have been quite active in Brainstorm for three years. The wiki page says a lot about my contributions to the Bug Squad, Brainstorm, the LoCo, and the Leadership Team.
<marcus> i am here ;)
 * Cheesehead stops 
<highvoltage> thanks for the well-prepared intro, it saves some time :)
<Cheesehead> highvoltage: Since marcus is here, would you like him first?
<marcus> for me it's ok. just go ahead ;)
<czajkowski> lets carry on Cheesehead and we can go back to mariot
<czajkowski> marcus:
 * Cheesehead continues intro
<Cheesehead> I have an awful sense of humor, and I say things like "I invited all my enemies, why didn't they show up to the membership meeting?" One of the things I love most about the Ubuntu community is their tolerance for my rather absurdist sense of humor.
<Cheesehead> I brought a few friends today, DarwinSurvivor (Brainstorm), bigbash (LoCo), and jrgifford (Leadership Team)...(er, sorry if I missed someone - those names all scroll by so fast!)
<jrgifford> YAY Cheesehead! He's been awesome in #ubuntu-leadership
<Cheesehead> (EOF)
<highvoltage> Any questions for cheesehead? If there's none we'll continue with voting.
<bigbash> Just like to chime in and say Cheesehead has been very active and helpful to all in #ubuntu-us-wi
<bigbash> especially me
 * Cheesehead blushes
<czajkowski> Cheesehead: how do you feel about loco teams and how they help promote ubuntu
<DarwinSurvivor> o/ will vouch for Cheesehead's amazing work on brainstorm, both with the site and new reviewers/mods
<czajkowski> I see you're involved with your loco team
<highvoltage> VOTE: Cheesehead for membership +1 / +0 / -1 (only board members can vote):
<h00k> Hi from Wisconsin, I'm the LoCo contact.
<stgraber> +1 [ thanks so much for the help with Brainstorm ! ]
<highvoltage> +1 [ work on brainstorm and loco team involvement ]
<czajkowski> +1
<n0rman> +1
<highvoltage> Result: +4
<highvoltage> Cheesehead: congratulations and welcome!
<Cheesehead> Thanks everybody!
 * h00k high-fives Cheesehead 
<highvoltage> Oli: your turn :)
 * DarwinSurvivor congrats Cheesehead!
<czajkowski> highvoltage: marcus ?
<marcoceppi> Oli WOOOOOO!
<Oli> Hello!
<jrgifford> congrats Cheesehead!!
<george_e> Yeah Oli!!! Wooooooooooooooo!
<marcus> jup, i am here
<jrgifford> Hurray for Oli!!
<htorque> \o/
<jrgifford> he's awesome. :P
<marcus> should i give a short introduction, too?
<marcoceppi> Oh, it's marcus's turn
<marcoceppi> ?
<highvoltage> marcus: after Oli
 * george_e sits back down.
<Oli> Righto.
 * marcoceppi retracts woooooooooo
 * george_e stands back up.
 * marcoceppi reretracts woooooooooo
 * jrgifford remained standing
<george_e> Lol.
<Oli> Hi all, I'm Oli - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Oli - I'm a 27 year old web developer from Norfolk, UK and I'm an Ask Ubuntu moderator.
<czajkowski> Oli: nice testimoals
<Oli> I've been using Ubuntu somewhere between three and five years and I've been trying to help others with it for almost as long.
<czajkowski> *testimonials
<Oli> The vast majority of my contribution to date has been over the last year on Ask Ubuntu where I've been trying to help as many people as possible My wiki page has some aggregate statistics. As I've mentioned, I now also help out there by moderating the site and dealing with our community's issues alongside marcoceppi and stefano-palazzo.
<Oli> And although it's probably not pertinent to the process, I have a cold. That is all.
<Oli> Thanks czajkowski.
<highvoltage> Oli: your page says you're often an outspoken frustrated ubuntu user. If you could change any one thing in Ubuntu by just snapping your fingers and making it so, what would that be?
<czajkowski> Oli: what would you like to achieve in the Ubuntu community ?
<Oli> highvoltage: That I wouldn't have to wrestle with various "shells" (Unity/fallback/etc) just to make things how I like. Current configuration (or lack thereof) in Unity is killing me.
<jrgifford> Oli: hence why you hang out in #ubuntu-power-users a lot? :P
<stefano-palazzo> Oli has been outstanding on Ask Ubuntu, his stats are just immense.
<Oli> czajkowski: I'd like to carve out a proper place for our users on Ask Ubuntu, working with the other moderators and other communities. I think we have a real asset sitting there where people can get help - if they know about it.
<highvoltage> great. any other questions for Oli?
<czajkowski> Oli: so how can we better achieve that ? what can we do encouarge that ?
<Oli> czajkowski: Well we're quite new so continuing what we're doing to see if it works. Promoting through locos. We just made it onto the official support page so we're in exciting times :)
<czajkowski> Oli: ok
 * marcoceppi +1 of Oli
 * jrgifford echos marcoceppi.
 * marcoceppi s/of/for/
 * george_e agrees.
<czajkowski> I've no further questions
<Oli> As you can see, we have a great community :)
<highvoltage> ok, it is timeVOTE: Oli for membership +1 / +0 / -1 (only board members can vote):
<czajkowski> +1 keep up the great work
<highvoltage> +1 [ great work and testimonials for work done on askubuntu.com an loud cheerleaders ]
<jrgifford> Oli: as they can't see, you secretly blackmailed us to show up here. ;D (jk)
<stgraber> +1
<n0rman> +1
<highvoltage> Result: +4
<Oli> W000000000
<highvoltage> Oli: congratulations and welcome!
<Oli> Thank you!
<jrgifford> YAY CONGRATS Oli!!
<htorque> cheerleading ftw! \o/
<stefano-palazzo> fantastic :)
<highvoltage> marcus: ready?
<marcus> as always ;)
<marcus> my name is marcus moeller. i am the loco contact of the swiss loco team, and have done some heavy work in this team this year.
<marcus> besides that i have organized a lot of ubuntu related events, like the global jam (with unity bug squashing), several ubuntu hours on different topics and so on.
<marcus> i have started to note down my activities on my wiki page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MarcusMoeller
<marcus> we have also set up a local (german-speaking) community on http://ubunteros.ch where i am very active, too
<highvoltage> marcus: what did you have to do for the re-approval of your loco team? how was the process?
<marcus> we have collected all our event notes and added pictures
<highvoltage> marcus: also, do you have anyone from the loco team who could vouch for you? I notice you don't have any testimonials on your wiki page.
<marcus> we try to keep that always up to date
<czajkowski> marcus: well http://loco.ubuntu.com/teams/ubuntu-swiss-users/events  isn't where your events are created
<czajkowski> where do you get people invovlved?
<highvoltage> marcus: are these meetings like "ubuntu hour" meetings? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SwissTeam/Meetings
<marcus> http://loco.ubuntu.com/teams/ubuntu-swiss-users/events/history
<marcus> yes, we got regular meetings on different topics
<czajkowski> marcus: anyone from your loco to support your application ?
<marcus> i think WaVer could support me, or ddeimeke, or anyone else form the loco
<highvoltage> any further questions?
<czajkowski> nope
<stgraber> I can definitely confirm that marcus is active on the swiss loco mailing list and did a very good job at updating our wiki, cleaning up the contact list there and managing the marketing/media part of the loco
<marcus> thanks
<highvoltage> VOTE: marcus for membership +1 / +0 / -1 (only board members can vote):
<highvoltage> +1 [ loco team activities and general ubuntu advocacy ]
<stgraber> +1
<n0rman> +1
<czajkowski> +1
<highvoltage> Result: +4
<highvoltage> marcus: congratulations and welcome!
<marcus> thanks
<highvoltage> stefano-palazzo
<highvoltage> are you ready?
 * marcoceppi additional pelvis-thrust and +1 for stefano-palazzo
<stefano-palazzo> I am :)
<Oli> Wooooooo! Go stefano-palazzo!!!!
<stefano-palazzo> Hi. I'm Stefano, also one of the elected community moderators at AskUbuntu.com. I first got involved with Ubuntu, about 5 years ago by doing a bit of IRC support, and found my place in the community about 15 months ago, when Ask Ubuntu went public.
<Oli> He brings all his milkshake to the yard.
<stefano-palazzo> You might have seen the Ask Ubuntu Lens, which I started when lenses were introduced, the Ask Ubuntu Classroom, and - hopefully - one of my answers in a google search. :)
<jrgifford> Go stefano-palazzo!!!!
<george_e> If Guido van Rossum hadn't invented Python, Stefano would have.
<jrgifford> george_e: heh, nice
<czajkowski> wow what a wiki page
<george_e> Stefano is AWESOME!
<stefano-palazzo> thank you all, you're too kind
<czajkowski> stefano-palazzo: so I see jcastro suggested you get more involved in other areas of the Ubuntu community such as a loco or other areas, have you done so ?
<stefano-palazzo> I have gotten involed with the DX team a bit, particularly when lenses were introduced,
<czajkowski> ok
<george_e> He wrote a lens for Ask Ubuntu.
<highvoltage> ready to vote?
<czajkowski> stefano-palazzo: so how will ubuntu membership help you in the community ?
<czajkowski> are you looking to get further involved?
<stefano-palazzo> I am, yes
<stefano-palazzo> We're starting to think more concretely about ways to better integrate AU into the ubuntu ecosystem, the moderators job will be, I think, to be the bridge between the community at large and AU
<czajkowski> ok thanks for answering
<Oli> Amen.
<jrgifford> +1 to that one stefano-palazzo.
<stefano-palazzo> (as well as helping the various councils and organisations comunnicate with stack exchange)
<highvoltage> VOTE: stefano-palazzo for membership +1 / +0 / -1 (only board members can vote):
<czajkowski> ok I've no further questions
<highvoltage> +1 [ great askubuntu work and contributions to Unity ]
<stgraber> +1
<czajkowski> +1 but keep up the work in the greater ubuntu community as well :)
<n0rman> +1
<highvoltage> Result: +4
<highvoltage> stefano-palazzo: congratulations and welcome!
<stefano-palazzo> thank you very much :)
<jrgifford> stefano-palazzo: congrats! :D
<htorque> woohoo! \o/
<Oli> Congratulations stefano-palazzo!!!1
<stefano-palazzo> czajkowski, I will
<marcoceppi> WOOOOOOOOOOOOOO ROCK ON
<highvoltage> Seems like EgyParadox isn't present
<highvoltage> Which concludes our business for today :)
<mariot> Congratulations everyone!
<highvoltage> thank you everyone for attending, we managed to avoid having a backlog for next month
<n0rman> mariot: hope to see you in next meeting :)
<highvoltage> also special thanks to n0rman who lent a hand from the Americas board
<czajkowski> highvoltage: thanks for chairing
<czajkowski> n0rman: thank you
<Cheesehead> Thanks, EMEA board!
<czajkowski> right now to run
<czajkowski> thanks folks
<mariot> n0rman: thanks! See ou there!
<stgraber> thanks!
<highvoltage> End of meeting, have a great day everyone.
<mariot> :)
<Oli> Thanks all!
<n0rman> highvoltage: czajkowski :)
<stefano-palazzo> thanks everyone
<george_e> Question... what happened to the voting bot?
<jrgifford> george_e: it b0rked itself I assume?
<george_e> Just wondering.
<mariot> egyparadox: sorry but the meeting is over
<EgyParadox> I added my name after the announcement
<highvoltage> george_e: there's a new meeting bot, which works, I just need to learn how to drive it. I'll make a point of doing that for the next meeting I chair :)
<mariot> egyparadox: yes, we were waiting for you
<george_e> highvoltage: Ah, I see.
<highvoltage> EgyParadox: ah, you missed it by just a few minutes. Our next meeting is on 6 December at 20:00 UTC
<mariot> egyparadox: iainfarrel didn't come neither
<leogg> n0rman, \o/
<EgyParadox> The new date was today?
<n0rman> EgyParadox: yes :)
<n0rman> leogg: o/
<EgyParadox> I didnt receive an email
<EgyParadox> I just seen it now
<EgyParadox> :|
<highvoltage> Oli: btw, what's your full name?
<EgyParadox> I apologize for not attending
<n0rman> EgyParadox: next meeting is on 6 December at 20 UTC
<czajkowski> /c/c
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-11-12
<topyli> ircc meeting?
<elky> only the two of us
<Unit193> I hope so...
<elky> jussi can't make it apparently
<topyli> so, no quorum. well, we can review action items and discuss new ones
<LjL> oops it's saturday already
<topyli> we have new bugs, due to us trying to push things more into the public. https://bugs.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-irc-council
<elky> both the new bugs are against jussi, and i believe we've both put our thoughts against them
<LjL> i tried to add the item yesterday, but wiki wouldn't let me login
<topyli> LjL: we can discuss it under "other issues" :)
<topyli> i like the idea of putting stuff in launchpad when possible
<topyli> not sure if we should go into specific bugs here, just note that they're there
<elky> the bugs provide a way to discuss there, so i see no reason to hash stuff out here
<topyli> aye
<elky> plus, i want to go to bed before too long
<elky> i actually went and got into bed because i was falling asleep, then had to get up because i remembered the meeting :(
<topyli> there's an action item for me that i have not done. i have been a bit uncertain if it's time to do it, but i suppose it is according to last meeting's minutes. sorry about this, will do it asap
<topyli> (opening up the #lubuntu call for ops)
<elky> yeah, you should probably do that
<topyli> yes
<topyli> another thing undone was review of m4v's guidelines draft. we have done this, let me find
<topyli> http://notes.kde.org/ubuntuguidelines
<elky> idleone has somethign on the agenda which we could discuss preliminarily, but he appears offline
<topyli> m4v has also fixed a couple of problems there
<topyli> elky: yes, there are different opinions on that, would be nice to have both him and flannel
<topyli> generally, i like the basic suggestion that quiets should always be timed and auto-removed
<topyli> LjL: would you like to bring up your issue?
<LjL> ok
<elky> is there a way to have per-action-type rules like that?
<topyli> elky: technically, no idea. socially, we can encourage it :)
<LjL> i was thinking that we should probably inform all users about the appeals process when they are banned. i think the best way to achieve that would be having a bot do it automatically.
<LjL> we could also put that to our advantage by including information like "Please remember that if you come to #ubuntu-ops to discuss your ban, you're supposed to be civil, calm and respectful, otherwise it will only result in your being removed from there"
<LjL> so we don't have to warn users again and again when they join there
<topyli> this way, users would at least know about -ops
<elky> could be useful, but it should ignore floodbots of course
<LjL> well the floodbots could be the ones doing it in the first place, trivial to add
<topyli> i would support that. it would improve users' awareness of how to get unbanned, and with a little added information they would also know how to behave in -ops
<topyli> the floodbots themselves are problematic though, can another bot do it?
<topyli> problem being they depend on a single person and are not free software
<elky> ubottu already has the code to harass us, should be trivial there too
<ubottu> elky: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :)
<elky> don't worry, we know you're not.
<topyli> thanks for the reminder ubottu
<topyli> we can't decide right now anyway. we should discuss this and add it to the next meeting's agenda for decision making
<topyli> maybe file a bug. it's fashionable again! :)
<topyli> anything else?
<elky> don't think so
<topyli> i can write up a little summary to replace official minutes, so we can continue on the mailing list
<topyli> and so we won't forget what we talked about
<elky> that's what channel logs are for
<topyli> i think it's still good to send mail to point people to read said logs
<Unit193> Just can't read meetingology logs/minutes this time
<topyli> Unit193: i'll try and sum up in the mail, and logs exist at irclogs.ubuntu.com too
<Unit193> Yes sir
<topyli> heh
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-11-13
<lio> +i lio
<lio> hello
<lio> is there any solution to force a nvidia fx5500 on ubuntu 11.10
<valorie> lio, this channel is for meetings
<valorie> support is in #ubuntu
<lio> ok
<lio> thanks
<BiosDestroyer> Take care all
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-11-05
<mdeslaur> jjohansen, sbeattie, tyhicks, micahg, sarnold, jdstrand: meeting?
<jjohansen> \o
<tyhicks> Hello
<sarnold> ack
 * sbeattie waves
<mdeslaur> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Nov  5 18:04:03 2012 UTC.  The chair is mdeslaur. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<mdeslaur> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<mdeslaur> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<mdeslaur> [TOPIC] Announcements
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Announcements
<mdeslaur> Natty is now EoL. jdstrand did the process for retiring it, so if you have not done it already, please do the checklist for removing natty from your security tools configuration.
<mdeslaur> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<mdeslaur> I'll go first I guess
<mdeslaur> This week, I'm in the happy place
<mdeslaur> I just released mysql, munin and mesa
<mdeslaur> and I have some other things to start working on
<mdeslaur> and I'll be gong down the list
<mdeslaur> that's pretty much it from me
<mdeslaur> sbeattie: you're up
<sbeattie> I'm trying to recover from UDS
<mdeslaur> sbeattie: did you get the Ubuflu?
<sbeattie> mdeslaur: no, but my inbox did
<mdeslaur> oh, haha
<mdeslaur> canonimailplague
<sbeattie> (I pre-fetched UbuFlu for myself)
<sbeattie> I'll be looking at the display manager notes and stuff that jjohansen handed off to me.
<sbeattie> which is pretty much it for me
<mdeslaur> I've been popping vitamin C like candy as a placebo preventative measure
<sbeattie> heh, yeah, me too
 * jjohansen wishes he had some of that placebo
<sarnold> mm, something to do at lunch time..
<sbeattie> I don't think micahg is here, so tyhicks, I think you're up.
<tyhicks> Sorry, too busy laughing at your weak immune systems
<tyhicks> ;)
<mdeslaur> lol
<tyhicks> arges asked me to SRU the fix for bug 1052038
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1052038 in ecryptfs-utils (Ubuntu Precise) "ecryptfs_fnek_sig missing when login at the same time on cron session close" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1052038
<tyhicks> The fix already exists and a test case already exists, so it shouldn't be bad
 * jjohansen coughs in tyhicks direction
<tyhicks> I want to wrap up things (from my end, at least) for the audit MIR this week
<mdeslaur> \o/
<tyhicks> sgrubb merged my patch upstream this morning
<mdeslaur> oh, nice
<sarnold> nice
<tyhicks> I've got a little inbox backlog to take care of
<tyhicks> and then I'm back on the apparmor dbus work
<tyhicks> that's it for me
<tyhicks> jjohansen: you're up
<jjohansen> I am going to get the dbus kernel up and then I'm am diving back into the stacking work this week
<tyhicks> thanks jjohansen
<mdeslaur> jjohansen: is that like the big jenga game at UDS?
<jjohansen> mdeslaur: nah, much less stable
<mdeslaur> hehe
<tyhicks> oof
<jjohansen> :)
<jjohansen> I think that is it for /me sarnold your up
<sarnold> good think you're a talented swordsman...
<sarnold> I'm on triage this week.
<jjohansen> sarnold: sadly only when my opponent is two feet tall
<sarnold> I'm pretty sure I've got the udsflu, you guys never mentioned that uds lasts another week...
<mdeslaur> sarnold: oh, let me know when you do bug triage if you want me to ride along
<sarnold> mdeslaur: thanks
<sarnold> before uds flights, I made sure qt4-x11 update worked well enough in natty, but didn't get around to the other distros in time to get the qt4-x11 update out the door for natty's goodbye party
<jjohansen> sarnold: ha yes, uds does seem to have a way of chewing up 2 weeks of your time
<sarnold> but it does help provide overall credibility to the reliability of the patch,  and the time spent with qrt feels well-spent.
<sarnold> I thikn that's it, but maybe that's just the sinuses thinking...
<mdeslaur> sarnold: ok, you can remove the natty update from the secppa before publishing
<sarnold> mdeslaur: back to you?
<mdeslaur> sarnold: so you'll be testing the other releases this week, and hopefully publish it?
<sarnold> mdeslaur: can I ask for your hlep for that later today?
<sarnold> mdeslaur: yes.
<mdeslaur> sarnold: certainly
<sarnold> thanks
<mdeslaur> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
<mdeslaur> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.
<mdeslaur> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
<mdeslaur> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/sun-javadb.html
<mdeslaur> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/msmtp.html
<mdeslaur> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/libparallel-forkmanager-perl.html
<mdeslaur> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/libsdp.html
<mdeslaur> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/geshi.html
<mdeslaur> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
<mdeslaur> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
<sarnold> one thing, probably long-term discussion point..
<sarnold> we get our entropy from keyboard timing and hard drive timing data; but ssds are on the rise. are they still a reasonable source of entropy data?
<mdeslaur> hrm, interesting question
<mdeslaur> probably should be asked upstream
<sarnold> one hopes ssds are going into systems with good cpu-provided rngs but that may only be true on server-scale machinery.
<mdeslaur> yeah, it's a good question
<tyhicks> sarnold: FYI, Ted Ts'o made some changes to the kernel's entropy gathering code over the last month or two. I don't recall what all the changes were atm.
<sarnold> tyhicks: ah :) thanks
<mdeslaur> ok, thanks everyone!
<mdeslaur> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Nov  5 18:23:21 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-11-05-18.04.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-11-05-18.04.html
<jjohansen> thanks mdeslaur
<sarnold> thanks mdeslaur
<tyhicks> thanks!
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-11-06
<kokoye2007> jtv
<kokoye2007> bro
<kokoye2007> now 12:00  utc
<kokoye2007> DC
<kokoye2007> hi TheLordOfTime
<kokoye2007> hi thohi
<smartboyhw> balloons, phillw: Any QA meeting today?
<balloons> nope
<smartboyhw> balloons: sorry I should day tmr
<hallyn> \o
<TheLordOfTime> o/
<hallyn> ttx: wanna chair?  :)
<TheLordOfTime> :P
<ttx> ETOOMANYMEETINGSTODAY
<hallyn> zul ?
<zul> right
<zul> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Nov  6 16:00:39 2012 UTC.  The chair is zul. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<zul> so lets start...everyone recovered from uds?
<zul> #topic Review ACTION points from previous meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<zul> jamespage and Ursinha to look into aligning release team and server team tracking reports
<zul> and jamespage to provide info to hggdh about how to run iSCSI and MAAS tests for the ISO
<jamespage> zul, done at UDS
<zul> cool both of them?
<hallyn> 3 cheers for a productive uds
<zul> i guess moving on to..
<jamespage> zul, second is still outstanding but I'm fed up of having this item carry - so I'll deal with it in the seeded qa blueprint instead
<zul> gotcha so i can remove it from the agenda?
<jamespage> yep
<zul> k
<zul> next
<zul> #topic s/raring/quantal/g development
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: s/raring/quantal/g development
<zul> so im guessing people should be working on their blueprints that they have assigned to them
<zul> anything else?
<hallyn> is Daviey around to tell us how long we have to whip them into shape?
<zul> i dunno...
<hallyn> guess not
<zul> Daviey/jamespage: ^^^
<jamespage> zul, right-oh
<zul> jamespage: anything else to add?
<jamespage> yes - one second
<jamespage> so blueprints need to be approved by feature definition freeze on the 22nd november
<jamespage> please all try to use the blueprint template as much as possible
<zul> oooh...plenty of time
<jamespage> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BlueprintSpec
<jamespage> zul, note 'approved' by then
<jamespage> please ensure that you leave time for final review and feedback
<jamespage> I'm happy  (and I'm sure smoser and Daviey will be as well) to review BP's between now and then to provide immediate feedback pending final approval
<zul> coolio..
<zul> anyone have any questions?
<zul> if not next
<zul> #topic Ubuntu Server Team Events
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Server Team Events
<zul> uds just happened
<zul> SoCal Linux Expo (Deadline: Dec. 10) http://www.socallinuxexpo.org/cfp
<zul> there is pycon ca but its sold out
<roaksoax> o/
<zul> roaksoax: a bit late
<zul> any events coming up?
<roaksoax> heh just realized of the time change :)
<zul> i think everyone forgot about it
<zul> so moving on
<zul> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
<zul> hi hggdh
<hggdh> hello
<zul> any update?
<hggdh> only that raring is now open on Jenkins
<hggdh> so... tests are welcome ;-)
<hggdh> ..
<jamespage> hggdh, we will be writing lots of those....
<hggdh> jamespage: I know, I was there ;-)
<Daviey> Sorry, i was otherwise engaged.
<zul> as was i
<hggdh> heh
<zul> any questions for hggdh
<Daviey> If a first cut of blueprints could be done by EOW.. we'll go through and review them next week.
<Daviey> jamespage & smoser are excellent point of contacts to help draft them.
<zul> Daviey:  cool..
<Daviey> I am somewhat of use, but mostly useless.
<zul> heh
<hggdh> this is not parseable, Daviey
<zul> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
<zul> hi smb
<zul> smb around?
<TheLordOfTime> he's not in the channel, zul
<zul> i guess not
<zul> we can come back to him
<TheLordOfTime> i pinged him in -server though :P
<Daviey> http://photos.pixoulphotography.com/Events/UDS-Raring-Ringtail/i-GrCv978/0/L/20121101-161051-UDS_Raring_Closing_Party-0024-L.jpg
<Daviey> "oops"
<zul> thats him
<zul> we can come back to him
<zul> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions regarding Ubuntu ARM Server (rbasak)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly Updates & Questions regarding Ubuntu ARM Server (rbasak)
<zul> and rbasak is not here either
<zul> heh this is going to be too quick
<zul> #topic Open Discussion
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Open Discussion
<zul> i like turtles
<roaksoax> whereschuck?
<TheLordOfTime> lol?
<hallyn> two chuck thumbs up for turtles
<zul> roaksoax: meh
<roaksoax> we accept donations for whereschuck :)
<zul> no we dont
<roaksoax> we do, photo donations :P
<zul> #topic Announce next meeting date and time
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Announce next meeting date and time
<zul> same bat channel same bat place?
<zul> thanks
<zul> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Nov  6 16:22:17 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-11-06-16.00.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-11-06-16.00.html
<TheLordOfTime> well that was fast :P
<hallyn> thanks zul
<SpamapS> o/
<TheLordOfTime> you're late!
<TheLordOfTime> the meeting is over.
<Daviey> Oh.. and don't forget..merges, merges, merges!
<SpamapS> Yes, late.. 8:30am is late.. I hate UTC ;)
<TheLordOfTime> SpamapS, heh
 * SpamapS wades into his merge queue
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-11-07
<kokoye2007> testing 123
<kokoye2007> cyphermox:
<kokoye2007> Dear Pendulum:
<kokoye2007> Dear head_victim
<head_victim> kokoye2007: the next membership board meeting is this time next week for the 1200 UTC board
<head_victim> I think that's what you're after?
<kokoye2007> thx head_victim
<head_victim> kokoye2007: no problem :)
<kokoye2007> dear head_victim 4th Wednesday of the month: 12:00 UTC ?
<head_victim> kokoye2007: it has been the 2nd and 4th of the month
<head_victim> Today is the 1st wednesday of the month so next week it's the 2nd wednesday of the month
<kokoye2007> Ohhh
<kokoye2007> ok ok
<head_victim> Not sure who updated the wiki page, it's wrong :/\
<kokoye2007> ya ya you mean https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/Boards head_victim  ? :D
<head_victim> Yeah, it's next week according to my calculations
<kokoye2007> so 12:00 and 22:00 is also
<kokoye2007> i will come next week 14th 12:00 UTC
<head_victim> The 2200 board meets on the 1st and 3rd weeks
<kokoye2007> thx for kind and regard head_victim
<head_victim> kokoye2007: keep an eye on that wiki page, we'll update it shortly to correct it
<head_victim> Apologies for the errors
<kokoye2007> nvm head_victim
<head_victim> kokoye2007: waiting a week might give you a chance to get a couple of testimonials on your wiki page :)
<kokoye2007> yeah head_victim
<smartboyhw> any QA meeting? balloond?
<smartboyhw> *balloons?
<balloons> ohh noes!
<balloons> I think time change busted me
<balloons> I was thinking it was in another hour
<smartboyhw> lol
<balloons> gotta reset all my calendar appointments again
 * balloons wonders how we still can't get this right
<smartboyhw> please do:-P
<smartboyhw> phillw: Here?
<TheLordOfTime> balloons: i have an idea.
<TheLordOfTime> balloons, have your calendar appointments on an online calendar, subscribe yourself to it, use time conversions :P
<TheLordOfTime> because time conversion is just so awesome :P
<balloons> TheLordOfTime, that's the sad part
<TheLordOfTime> (outlook / sunbird / GOOGLE CALENDAR is awesome there)
<balloons> I do use an online calendar
<balloons> and no, it doesn't handle the time change properly
<balloons> it does do conversions just fine.. I have dual display so I see everything in UTC as well as my local
<TheLordOfTime> then the software you are using is wrong.
<smartboyhw> TheLordOfTime what idea?
<TheLordOfTime> and needs to be purgified.
<TheLordOfTime> smartboyhw, you missed it because you timed out
<balloons> TheLordOfTime, it's google calendar
<TheLordOfTime> it was directed to balloons not anyone else
<balloons> try to find EDT in there
<balloons> I dare you :-)
<balloons> it's a well known and insane problem
<TheLordOfTime> balloons, you dont.  you set it to EST, and say "Detect DST settings"
<TheLordOfTime> it works correctly.
 * smartboyhw just wanted to start the meeting
<TheLordOfTime> well, in google apps at least it does
 * TheLordOfTime lols
<TheLordOfTime> ANYWAYS...
<smartboyhw> lol
 * balloons goes to look
<smartboyhw> balloons: I beg you: Start the meeting please
<balloons> http://support.google.com/calendar/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=2367918
<balloons> smartboyhw, lol
<smartboyhw> balloons, not lol
<balloons> #startmeeting Ubuntu QA Community
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Nov  7 14:30:14 2012 UTC.  The chair is balloons. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu QA Community Meeting | Current topic:
<smartboyhw> Yeah
<balloons> We split the difference.. 30 mins late or 30 mins early
<balloons> I'll let you decide
<balloons> who's actually made it to this random event?
<smartboyhw> I did
<smartboyhw> balloons what do you mean on that "split the difference" thing?
<balloons> I meant time
<balloons> anyways, I guess I'll abandon the traditional agenda to share what's going on
<smartboyhw> balloons: XD
<balloons> For raring, as you saw, lots of changes to how we will release. There won't be any alpha releases, and our testing will be cadence based
<balloons> I've started to put together a calendar of what weeks will be cadence weeks, and what we will plan to test during those weeks
<smartboyhw> yeah
<balloons> in addition, work is beginning on all the background stuff. A new quality report, and you can get your feet wet in trying out some of the automated testing tools
 * TheLordOfTime yawns
<TheLordOfTime> yes i'm still awake :P
<smartboyhw> balloons: Give us more info on UYAH please
<TheLordOfTime> (sorry late statement saying i'm here :P)
<smartboyhw> *UTAH
<balloons> UTAH?
<smartboyhw> yes
<smartboyhw> typo sorry
<balloons> ahh yes. The platform QA team said they would be giving hangouts this cycle on it
<balloons> it's just a wrapper though. For us, I think we'd be more interested in autopkgtest and autopilot
<smartboyhw> balloons what IS autopilot?
<balloons> autopilot is an automated testing tool -- for gui's
<balloons> so it's a functional testing tool. for us, plans are in place to do things like automate installer testing from the end user perspective (in addition to the pre-seeding and other testing that happens)
<balloons> this will shift our manual testing goals from doing lots of testing at a high level, to doing more in-depth testing
<smartboyhw> ok
<balloons> that's everything in a nutsheel
 * smartboyhw wonders whether balloons himself will become automated
<balloons> I'll send out an email today talking about how you can get involved.. now is a good time to take advantage of the lower QA needs and do some experiments and planning
<smartboyhw> yeah yeah yeah
<balloons> that's basically what the next few weeks will be
<smartboyhw> ok
<balloons> after the holidays and we're in 2013, we'll be in full gear again
<smartboyhw> that's good since I can finish my exam in January and return to QA
<balloons> excellent
<balloons> any other comments / questions?
<balloons> if not, we'll wrap this up for now
<smartboyhw> no.
<balloons> and try and get a handle on the proper time.. my calendar is adjusted now :-)
<smartboyhw> lol
<balloons> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Nov  7 14:46:05 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-11-07-14.30.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-11-07-14.30.html
<smartboyhw> thx balloons
<balloons> thanks TheLordOfTime and smartboyhw
<smartboyhw> balloons send that email a.s.a.p please so I can read it before sleep
<TheLordOfTime> bleh
<TheLordOfTime> randomlag
<smartboyhw> lol
<balloons> smartboyhw, sorry mate
<balloons> first thing tomrorrow for you
<balloons> nothing new beyond what you read.. just some details
<smartboyhw> balloons grrr
<balloons> your already a testcase admin
<balloons> the work items there all need done ;-)
<smartboyhw> ouch
<smartboyhw> ALL done
<smartboyhw> OK
<balloons> smartboyhw, let's chat in #ubuntu-testing
<balloons> don't spam here
<smartboyhw> ok
 * slangasek waves
<jodh> o/
 * stgraber waves
 * xnox 0/
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Nov  7 16:03:10 2012 UTC.  The chair is slangasek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<ogra_> \o//
<slangasek> [TOPIC] lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: lightning round
<slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e barry doko stgraber jodh ev bdmurray slangasek ogra infinity cjwatson xnox stokachu)
<slangasek> bdmurray stokachu cjwatson ogra ev barry doko slangasek jodh infinity xnox stgraber
<doko> hi
<bdmurray> uploaded ubuntu-release-upgrader fix for bug 1067393 to raring
<bdmurray> uploaded apport fix for bug 1039220 to precise
<bdmurray> uploaded update-manager fix for bug 1060353 to oneiric
<bdmurray> SRU verification of bug 875879 regarding aptdaemon
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1067393 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu) "using a local mirror and an official mirror of -backports does not work" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1067393
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1039220 in apport (Ubuntu Precise) "don't report crashes for programs that don't match the file on disk (like for kernel crashes)" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1039220
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1060353 in update-manager (Ubuntu Oneiric) "DistUpgradeApport.py causes an apport assertion error" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1060353
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 875879 in aptdaemon (Ubuntu Precise) "update-manager crashed with AttributeError in show_diff(): 'NoneType' object has no attribute 'group'" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/875879
<bdmurray> SRU verification of bug 1039220 regarding apport and precise
<bdmurray> SRU verification of bug 1066445, 1065806, 964674
<bdmurray> reported ubuntu-release-upgrader bug 1071388
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1065806 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu Quantal) "diff window is too small on upgrade" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1065806
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1066445 in apt (Ubuntu Quantal) "apt-get crashed with SIGSEGV in pkgCacheGenerator::ListParser::NewProvides()" [Critical,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1066445
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 964674 in update-manager (Ubuntu Precise) "update-manager fails to display an error message" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/964674
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1071388 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu Quantal) "UnicodeDecodeError in askYesNoQuestion of DistUpgradeViewText.py" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1071388
<bdmurray> modifiied arsenal to do milestone searching
<bdmurray> created arsenal report for (quantal|precise)-updates targetted bug reports
<bdmurray> wrote up foundations-r-sru-queue-velocity blueprint
<bdmurray> â done
<cjwatson> is stokachu here?
<cjwatson> otherwise I can go on ...
<stokachu> yea sorry
<stokachu> cjwatson: go ahead im still working on my changes
<cjwatson> ok
<cjwatson> Fixed handling of library transitions in proposed-to-release migration code.
<cjwatson> Babysat various bits of said migration to ensure that complex transitions work properly.
<cjwatson> Part-way through backporting UEFI Secure Boot support to 12.04.2 (bug 1075181).  I've uploaded grub2 and base-installer to precise-proposed; I probably need grub2 to be processed before I can get much further here.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1075181 in linux-signed (Ubuntu Precise) "Backport UEFI Secure Boot support for Ubuntu 12.04.2" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1075181
<cjwatson> Sorted out some raring image build failures.
<cjwatson> Adjusted ubiquity in raring to support dynamically constructing the unsigned kernel based on the signed kernel, to save space.
<cjwatson> ..
<cjwatson> incidentally OMG the grub2 backport was a lot of patches
<cjwatson> I ended up with a "stuff I need to support all these other changes" patch
<infinity> cjwatson: Oh, I was asleep when binutils transitioned, did that require manual intervention to remove the NBS linux-tools-ac100, or does that magically DTRT now?
<cjwatson> infinity: DTRT
<infinity> \o/
<cjwatson> oh, there might have ended up being an NBS in the release pocket actually
<cjwatson> but it migrated without intervention
<infinity> Right, NBS cruft in release is less worrying than having to pre-emptively remove it to allow the transition.
<slangasek> stokachu: ready yet? or should we continue on?
 * ogra_ is fine to go now if needed
<stokachu> slangasek: go ahead i was talking to brian about a patch i did
<ogra_> done:
<ogra_>  * uploaded tegra3 drivers to raring
<ogra_>  * fixed a few bugs for nexus7 (and worked through the list)
<ogra_>  * researched wlan options (there are three drivers, the one that works OOTB has a weird license though)
<ogra_>  * tried to get the camera on the nexus7 to work with no success so far
<ogra_>  * looked into creating sparse images with ext2simg instead of make_ext4fs
<slangasek> stokachu: ok, let us know when you're ready
<ogra_>    using the former results in significantly bigger images though which will cause install problems
<ogra_>  * sorted out blueprints and WIs
<ogra_>  * blocked on not having a kernel package in the archive yet for implementing nexus7 image builds
<ogra_> todo:
<ogra_>  * implement the nexus7 image builds
<ogra_>  * more WI cleanup
<ogra_>  * try to find a home for desktop-r-rebuild-gl-games-for-gles
<ogra_>    (currently desktop, but somehow the content is rather community i think)
<ogra_>  * merges
<ogra_>  * fix various flash-kernel bugs (kernel downgrades are not supported since 3.x came from debian,
<ogra_>    that always causes support)
<ogra_> ..
<ev> - Short week; UDS.
<ev> - Taking my learnings of juju best practices from UDS hallway discussions and crafting a solution to our database schema race condition. Canonistack is being particularly uncooperative this week, so this has been slow to test.
<ev> - Further debugging of the RabbitMQ charm bug where the wrong hook gets called and we don't get a username or password from the server.
<ev> - Reworking a lot of error tracker developer documentation to make it better organised and easier to read through (I had complaints that the massive wall of text made people want to 'gouge out their eyes').
<ev> - Got permission from webops to publish the canonistack setup on the Ubuntu wiki. It was also suggested that I provide EC2 instructions, so I'll have to start using my monthly credit for that.
<ev> - Investigated why the retracers are all hanging. It turns out to be a ddebs.ubuntu.com issue, which pitti seems to have fixed.
<ev> - Verified the 12.10 USB disk for the Ubuntu store.
<ev> (done)
<barry> uds, vacation, dead machine.  back at work today.  done.
<slangasek> ogra_: is a nexus7 kernel package pending?  does the kernel team know you're waiting?
<stokachu> ok i just got 2 things
<stokachu> patch for bug 1013798, needs metadata in patch itself
<stokachu> patch for bug 1036834 completed for precise properly
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1013798 in libgcrypt11 (Ubuntu Raring) "Blink SIP client segfaults with libgcrypt11 1.5.0-3ubuntu0.1" [Critical,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1013798
<stokachu> done
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1036834 in gdb (Ubuntu Precise) "[FFe] gdb should be marked "Multi-arch: allowed"" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1036834
<ogra_> slangasek, not a kernel team job, i nag janimo every day about it though
<ogra_> slangasek, afaik the nexus kernel is supposed to stay in universe
<ogra_> and i think jani will go on maintaining it
<slangasek> right, makes sense
<ogra_> the image tools stuff was rather disappointing btw
<infinity> ogra_: At about the same level of "maintenance" that we get for ac100, I assume? :)
<ogra_> infinity, yeah, i guess
<ogra_> probably more contributions to it though
<ogra_> (one can hope :) )
 * infinity is tempted to waste a weekend on tossing a chromebook kernel in universe.
<ogra_> ++
 * ogra_ ordered one on sunday
<doko> - UDS
<doko> - binutils and gcc-4.7 updates
<doko> - re-submitted gcc-multiarch patch upstream
<doko> - python3.3 packaging fixes
<doko> - drop python3.2 as supported python3 version
<doko> - libxml2 build fixes
<doko> (done)
<slangasek> barry: dead machine? :/
<slangasek> any volunteers to look at bug #1013798 for stokachu?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1013798 in libgcrypt11 (Ubuntu Raring) "Blink SIP client segfaults with libgcrypt11 1.5.0-3ubuntu0.1" [Critical,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1013798
<bdmurray> slangasek: I'm piloting today so will
<infinity> slangasek: o/
<infinity> Or bdmurray can. :P
<slangasek> bdmurray wins
<slangasek> bdmurray: thanks
<barry> slangasek, yep.  my main dev box wouldn't boot when i got back from vacation.  replaced the cmos battery, still no boot (brief flash on power button, but then nothing).  the googles indicated it was the power supply so ran out and got one late last night.  seemed to do the trick this morning
<slangasek>  * recovering from UDS+DST
<slangasek>  * blueprints and UDS summaries
<slangasek>  * fixing apt kernel autoremoval (bug #923876)
<slangasek>  * get kernel metapackages moved to the right section (bug #1074787)
<slangasek>  * catch-up SRU processing
<slangasek>  * pushed udev NMU into Debian for upstart support
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 923876 in apt (Ubuntu) "FR: Limit and clean-up kernel images and headers automatically in LTS" [Wishlist,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/923876
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1074787 in linux-meta (Ubuntu Raring) "linux-meta metapackages should not be in section 'metapackages'" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1074787
<slangasek> (done)
<cjwatson> udev> yay
<jodh> * upstart:
<jodh>   - Squished nasty test race.
<jodh>   - Raised MP for stateful-reexec feature
<jodh>     https://code.launchpad.net/~upstart-devel/upstart/stateful-reexec/+merge/133265
<stokachu> cjwatson: i fixed the gdb debdiff
<jodh>   - Looking at bug 1075976.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1075976 in upstart (Ubuntu) "test-suite fails in autopkgtest environment" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1075976
<barry> doko, dropping py3.2 - yay!
<jodh> âº
<jodh>  
<cjwatson> stokachu: thanks, will look after meeting
<stokachu> cjwatson: when i genreated the src package i didnt have the build deps installed on the hsot machine which caused those deps to be blank
<cjwatson> Yeah
<stokachu> first time i ever ran into that
<cjwatson> It's fairly rare but does sometimes happen
<slangasek> there's a unicode codepoint for paste-on Vulcan eyebrows?
<infinity> * UDS recovery, blueprints, archive consistency tracking, pondering vacations
<infinity> â­
<xnox> * finished python3.3 transition (pykde4 needs to migrate)
<xnox> * reviewed / swept through blueprints/workitems (couple of blueprints still need accepting)
<xnox> * packaged android-tools-fs-utils for generation of sparse images for nexus images
<xnox> * forwarded python3.3 porting patches to debian
<xnox> * updated the onlypy3oncd tracker for 13.04
<xnox> ...
<stgraber>  - UDS last week
<stgraber>  - Networking
<stgraber>   - Merged ifupdown with Debian, forwarded remaining upstart delta.
<stgraber>  - Container
<stgraber>   - Pushed bugfix branch to Daniel for lxc 0.8, was merged upstream.
<stgraber>   - Started rebasing staging branch on new upstream master.
<stgraber>  - Post-UDS
<stgraber>   - Went through all remaining quantal work items, updated status.
<stgraber>   - Started to go through UDS notes to draft the raring blueprints.
<stgraber>  - QA Tracker
<stgraber>   - Schema update to allow a build to belong to multiple milestones.
<stgraber>   - Code change to automatically link the builds to the milestones.
<stgraber>   - Added new manifest table to the DB.
<stgraber>   - Added new flag to milestone which when set will automatically post builds for products listed in the manifest.
<stgraber>   - Updated the publishing code to detect the new flag, scan the manifest and add the matching products to the right milestones.
<stgraber>  - TODO
<stgraber>   - Finish QA Tracker work and get it deployed by IS:
<stgraber>     - Add user UI, admin UI and RPC interface to the manifest
<stgraber>     - Extend python-qatracker for the new RPC
<stgraber>     - Run all the API tests
<stgraber>     - Get IS to rollout the code change in production
<stgraber>   - UDS blueprint drafting
<stgraber>   - Finish LXC staging branch rebasing
<stgraber> (DONE)
<jodh> stgraber: you've caught what ev's got! ;-)
<barry> xnox, can you paste the url to the tracker in the foundations-r-python-versions blueprint?
<barry> (if it's not already there)
<ev> jodh: hahaha
<xnox> barry: i think it's the same one as before.
 * ogra_ grins
<barry> xnox, cool
<stgraber> jodh: nah, it's about the same length as usual, it's just that ev's usually 10x longer so nobody notices ;)
<xnox> barry: and it's on the blueprint.
<barry> xnox, awesome, thanks
<ev> :)
<slangasek> any (non-editorial ;) questions/comments on the above?
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Bugs
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Bugs
<slangasek> bdmurray: not sure if there's anything to talk about here at the moment?
<bdmurray> bug 1073514 could use an assignee
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1073514 in coreutils (Ubuntu Raring) "cp, mv, install: data loss due to free memory read" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1073514
<cjwatson> oh, I promised hggdh I'd look at that
<cjwatson> so assigned myself by way of keeping my promise
<hggdh> thank you :-)
<bdmurray> then I'd also mentioned a new report
<bdmurray> http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/quantal-updates-bug-tasks.html
<bdmurray> those are bugs with a quantal task and targetted to quantal-updates
<cjwatson> stokachu: accepted gdb now, finally
<cjwatson> thanks
<bdmurray> so there are some things that could be worked on in that list
<stokachu> cjwatson: lol thank you!
<bdmurray> that's all from me
<slangasek> oh man, did I really sign up to fix bug #1067348?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1067348 in plymouth (Ubuntu Quantal) "garbled character appears on the screen after inputting the passphrase of the encrypted hard disk during the boot process" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1067348
<slangasek> I guess I'd better start digging to figure out how to detect which fonts are used and need copied :/
<stokachu> mscorefonts :D
<slangasek> bdmurray: thanks for the update
<slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<slangasek> fwiw, Feature Definition Freeze is set for November 22nd
<slangasek> (well, November 22th according to the wiki, but anyway)
<xnox> I have a few workitems on specs from quantal & uds-r which are not accepted for raring yet, do I ping you, slangasek, about them?
<barry> is anybody running raring desktop by default yet?
<infinity> barry: I have been since it opened.
<slangasek> that's Thanksgiving, and I'm taking the whole week off, so I'd appreciate it if your blueprints were done by the 15th
<cjwatson> oh, I meant to upgrade this week
<xnox> barry: I am. unity doesn't start, so I am in the fallback session.
<cjwatson> there were a couple of unityish things due to be copied from quantal-updates, I think ...
<slangasek> xnox: at this point you shouldn't need to, I'll go through the whole list of specs
<barry> infinity, xnox cool.  i think i'll upgrade my vm as an interim step
<stokachu> barry: go all in!
<xnox> slangasek: hmm... they don't appear on status.ubuntu.com so something is missing on them.
<slangasek> xnox: probably so, but it's probably something I'm going to catch when I do my review so don't worry about it :)
<ogra_> approval ?
<xnox> ack.
 * barry likes the deep end
<bdmurray> oh, by the way if you are reporting bugs please try to set the importance of them
 * ogra_ likes that he has proper alt+tab since yesterday :)
<slangasek> xnox: the main thing is, if the blueprint is ready for review, to set it to 'review' or 'pending approval'
<xnox> ok.
<slangasek> anything else then?
<slangasek> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Nov  7 16:34:49 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-11-07-16.03.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-11-07-16.03.html
<ogra_> thanks !
<slangasek> quick meeting today
<slangasek> thanks everyone :)
<stgraber> thanks!
<jodh> thanks
<xnox> cheers.
<ogra_> quicker than florida :)
<stokachu> lol
<infinity> I don't think Florida should be allowed to participate in federal elections anymore.
<ogra_> lol
<slangasek> it's ok, we made them irrelevant this time
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-11-09
<ivarela> itnet7 ping!
#ubuntu-meeting 2013-11-04
<jdstrand> hi!
<tyhicks> hello
<jdstrand> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Nov  4 16:34:17 2013 UTC.  The chair is jdstrand. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<jdstrand> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<jdstrand> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Announcements
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Announcements
<jdstrand> Thanks to the following individuals:
<jdstrand> Christian Biamont (christianbiamont) provided a debdiff for precise for xml-security-c (LP: #1192874)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1192874 in xml-security-c (Ubuntu Saucy) "heap overflow while processing InclusiveNamespace PrefixList" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1192874
<jdstrand> Felix Geyer (debfx) provided debdiffs for precise-raring for libapache2-mod-fcgid (LP: #1238242)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1238242 in libapache2-mod-fcgid (Ubuntu Lucid) "CVE-2013-4365: possible heap buffer overwrite" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1238242
<jdstrand> Felix Geyer (debfx) provided debdiffs for precise-raring for ejabberd (LP: #1239307)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1239307 in ejabberd (Ubuntu Lucid) "Allows SSLv2 and weak ciphers" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1239307
<jdstrand> christianbiamont, debfx: Your work is very much appreciated and will keep Ubuntu users secure. Great job! :)
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<chrisccoulson> hi!
<jdstrand> I'll go first
<jdstrand> I'm on triage this week
<jdstrand> I've got quite a few things to catch up on from being at the sprint last week
<jdstrand> also I need to process/communicate outcomes from sprint next week
<jdstrand> in general, there shouldn't be any surprises for our team
<jdstrand> nothing major was added to our plans for 14.04 and 14.10
<jdstrand> I will be doing a click-apaprmor upload to sponsor a fix for cjwatson. I'm getting some CI testing going around click-apparmor which is why I haven't updated it yet
<jdstrand> I hope to have that today or tomorrow at the latest
<jdstrand> I know tyhicks wants me to sponsor an apparmor upload
<jdstrand> I think that's it for me
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: you're up
<mdeslaur> hi! I'm on community this week
<mdeslaur> I'm currently pushing out libav updates
<mdeslaur> FYI, the libav and ffmpeg codebases have diverged to the point of it being unreasonable to track both using the same set of CVEs
<mdeslaur> as such, I've updated the CVEs in the tracker
<jdstrand> oh, interesting
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: updated as in, updated the boilerplate?
<mdeslaur> jdstrand: as in added README.libav, killing the boilerplate, and marking existing cves as ignored or not-affected for libav
<jdstrand> cool
<mdeslaur> we shouldn't track ffmpeg CVEs as affecting libav
<jdstrand> I noticed libav is now in universe in trusty
<sarnold> does kurt agree?
<mdeslaur> tomorrow I'm off, and further down this week, I plan on finishing my merges and picking up some more updates
<mdeslaur> sarnold: no idea
<mdeslaur> sarnold: but the CVE descriptions never had "libav" in them
<mdeslaur> and I can't track vulnerabilities/commits across them
<mdeslaur> and libav is commiting a whole slew of independant security fixes now without asking for CVEs
<mdeslaur> anyway, that's it from me
<mdeslaur> sbeattie: you're up
<mdeslaur> hrm, sbeattie seems to be MIA
<tyhicks> I'll go
<tyhicks> I'll wrap up a pending apparmor upload today and hand it off to jdstrand (thanks!)
<tyhicks> Then I need to look into an ecryptfs/apparmor kernel bug that I hit last week
<tyhicks> I also have some merges that I need to do
<tyhicks> oh, and I need to look at enabling yama on the mobile kernels
<tyhicks> that's it for me
<tyhicks> jjohansen: you're up
<tyhicks> sarnold: lets go to you
<sarnold> hehe
<sarnold> it appears I'm in my happy place again this week \o/
<sarnold> I've been getting the hang of both canonistack and smo ser's virtual maas deployment scripts with an eye towards being able to do some maas update testing
<sarnold> I've prepared new versions of the maas updates for release hopefully this week -- it depends if the -proposed updates have moved into the -updates queue yet or not.
<mdeslaur> sarnold: \o/
<sarnold> (bigjools had finished the last verification-needed test last week, so I hope the automated framework moved them through by now)
<sarnold> mdeslaur: yeah, it'll be nice to finally cross these two off the list :)
<jdstrand> which two?
<sarnold> unfortunately smo ser's older script isn't his preferred testing method, and I had trouble getting the newer script to work, but I think his older script will work well enough for a starting point for documenting how the whole thing works..
<sarnold> jdstrand: CVE-2013-1057 and CVE-2013-1058
<ubottu> ** RESERVED ** This candidate has been reserved by an organization or individual that will use it when announcing a new security problem.  When the candidate has been publicized, the details for this candidate will be provided. (http://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvename.cgi?name=CVE-2013-1057)
<ubottu> ** RESERVED ** This candidate has been reserved by an organization or individual that will use it when announcing a new security problem.  When the candidate has been publicized, the details for this candidate will be provided. (http://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvename.cgi?name=CVE-2013-1058)
<jdstrand> ah, two CVEs, yes (I thought you were talking about source packages)
<sarnold> ah :)
<sarnold> once this is done I may do another MIR or pick up an update, depending upon mdeslaur's preference :)
 * mdeslaur consults magic 8 ball
<sarnold> chrisccoulson: your turn :)
<chrisccoulson> chromium is up to date now (had mozilla updates last week as well)
<sarnold> \o/
<jdstrand> \o/
<mdeslaur> chrisccoulson: woot!
<chrisccoulson> this week i shall be helping get people up and running with oxide
<mdeslaur> \o/
<chrisccoulson> i'm currently trying to improve the workflow for maintaining the chromium patches in oxide. there were various issues at the end of last week
<jdstrand> interesting
<chrisccoulson> other than that, i'll be back on to the usual again :)
<jdstrand> chrisccoulson: so, oxide made a big splash last week-- you should be getting the help now
<chrisccoulson> jdstrand, excellent, thanks
<chrisccoulson> jdstrand, you did a presentation didn't you?
<jdstrand> I did
<chrisccoulson> jdstrand,  how did that go?
<jdstrand> chrisccoulson: well-- most everyone realized it was the plan of record
<jdstrand> chrisccoulson: phonedations had a number of questions cause we hadn't brought them into the loop before that (though they were in the meeting in april and saw the emails on it stating it was the plan)
<jdstrand> chrisccoulson: they've done quite a bit of work on qtwebkit to make sure it works well on armhf
<chrisccoulson> ah, ok. although i can't imagine it working that well, with no jit ;)
<jdstrand> chrisccoulson: and I imagine they will also start helping out soon (eg rsalveti). but like I said elsewhere-- getting you the armhf hardware and you can do some benchmarks marks to give to them
<jdstrand> yeah, I don't have the details. you and rsalveti should definitely talk at some point though
<chrisccoulson> yeah, that's cool
<jdstrand> I want to update/form a new bp for oxide for this cycle
<jdstrand> we can talk more about that this week
<jdstrand> oh, yes, that is another thing I have to do-- work with mdeslaur and all of you on bps for vUDS
<jdstrand> I don't know that we'll have an oxide session-- I think the work is known. we'll discuss later
<jdstrand> chrisccoulson: did you have any other questions or anything else to report?
<chrisccoulson> jdstrand, no, i think that's me done
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
<jdstrand> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.
<jdstrand> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/openjpa.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/flightgear.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/sanlock.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/rawstudio.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/lighttpd.html
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
<jdstrand> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
<jdstrand> mdeslaur, tyhicks, sarnold, chrisccoulson: thanks!
<jdstrand> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Nov  4 17:06:23 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-11-04-16.34.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-11-04-16.34.html
<mdeslaur> thanks jdstrand!
<tyhicks> thanks!
<sarnold> thanks jdstrand :)
<tumbleweed> !dmb-ping
<ubottu> bdrung, ScottK, Laney, micahg, barry, tumbleweed, stgraber: DMB ping
 * stgraber waves
<tumbleweed> (not that it looks like we need a meeting)
 * barry waves
<barry> no utlemming again this time afaict
<ScottK> o/
<tumbleweed> he does appear to be on freenode, just not in here
<utlemming> hi, I'm here
<barry> awesome!
<barry> bdrung: you're chairing today, if you're around
 * bdrung comes around
<bdrung> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Nov  4 19:10:55 2013 UTC.  The chair is bdrung. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<bdrung> no previous action items. let's begin with our applications.
<bdrung> #topic Per Package Uploader Applications
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Per Package Uploader Applications
<bdrung> #subtopic Ben Howard applying for PPU for walinuxagent  and hv-kvp-daemon-init
<bdrung> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/utlemming/PPUApplication
<bdrung> utlemming: welcome. can you introduce yourself?
<utlemming> hi, I'
<utlemming> I'm Ben Howard and I spend my days in the cloud
<utlemming> I rather enjoy working on Ubuntu and maintain those two packages, working with sponsors
<utlemming> and I build the Cloud Images for Ubuntu
<stgraber> so just a few random questions to get started ;)
<stgraber> are you subscribed to ubuntu-devel-announce?
<utlemming> er, I am not...but will be shortly :)
<stgraber> good :)
<utlemming> and done
<stgraber> (sorry, trying to think about some clever questions, and failing at the moment ;))
<stgraber> so those two packages are Azure specific, right? are there equivalents for other cloud platforms that you'll end up maintaining? or is Azure special in that regard?
<utlemming> indeed, they are specific to Azure. The other package that I do a lot of work on is cloud-init. However, I lean on Scott Moser for that.
<utlemming> there are no other packages at this time that I maintain as part of cloud work....and I would like to keep it that way. The goal is to put all that stuff into Cloud-init.
<tumbleweed> utlemming: is walinuxagent something that we want to get into Debian too?
<utlemming> tumbleweed: yes, and there is a version in Debian called waagent. However, I have been unssuccesful in working with the debian maintainer.
<tumbleweed> oh, it's the same thing
<utlemming> tumbleweed: our version, however, is much cleaner as we've made cloud-init to handle the majority of the work. So we do carry a delta.
<tumbleweed> yeah, that's unfortunate
<utlemming> tumbleweed: that said, I have worked with MS to get some our changes upstreamed, including carrying our init scripts and packaging to make maintance easier.
<tumbleweed> does it make sense for ubuntu to have both walinuxagent and waagent? shouldn't we be dropping one or rebasing onto debian's package?
<bdrung> at least the package name should be the same
<utlemming> bdrung: if you look at the debian logs, they used our early version of the package to create waagent
<barry> utlemming: can you go into any detail about the debian maintainer issues?
<utlemming> barry: we introduced the intial version of the walinuxagent ~ 12.04 time frame, while walinuxagent was still having a lot of issues. I worked with MS to get those straigtened out. The Debian guys decided to package it, and introduced waagent based on our packaging. In the 12.10 and then 13.04 I reached out asking about merging the packages and removing the differences, which fell on deaf ears.
<barry> utlemming: did they just not respond?  are the orig maintainers still interested in maintaining the package in debian?
<tumbleweed> on a related topic, are you aware of the (fairly low traffic) debian-cloud list?
<utlemming> barry: no response. I haven't followed up in while -- I intend on following up on that latter
<utlemming> tumbleweed: yes, I am and I am on it
<utlemming> tumbleweed: I even hang out on their IRC channel
<barry> utlemming: cool
<tumbleweed> ok. hopefully we can solve this some day
<tumbleweed> but in the meantime, shouldn't we rename our walinuxagent source package? or remove waagent in Ubuntu?
<utlemming> tumbleweed: that is a great question. waagent today exists as MS's originally saw it, while walinuxagent now requires cloud-init and uses cloud-init to behave like a cloud instance.
<barry> tumbleweed: maybe schedule that for later in trusty if the issue can't be resolved in debian?
<utlemming> tumbleweed: for cloud-images, we want them to behave like cloud-images and so we use walinuxagent + cloud-init.
<stgraber> if our changes are a relatively clean set on top of upstream, then applying those on waagent instead (and killing walinuxagent) would make more sense
<stgraber> if we've diverged to the point where we heavily change the upstream source tarball, then a separate source name isn't entirely unreasonable
<utlemming> I can agree with that position. Mostly our changes are configuration changes.
<stgraber> but we should then blacklist and remove waagent from the archive
<bdrung> it depends what name is preferred. waagent or walinuxagent?
<stgraber> well, whatever Debian uses is usually best, if only for dependencies
<infinity> Am I fashionably late?
<stgraber> infinity: no, just late ;)
<utlemming> I would probably blacklist waagent, simply because it is a dangerous package. Part of packaging is to prevent it from hosing a system on installation.
<infinity> ScottK asked me to pop in and repeat something I told him in private.
<infinity> 12:19 <ScottK> Is utlemming ready for PPU rights for the Azure stuff?
<infinity> 12:25 <infinity> I don't think I've had to fix any of his uploads for a while now, so probably.  As long as he's saying the right things about being sane and getting reviews.
<infinity> So, there.   My work here is done. :)
<ScottK> Thanks.
<tumbleweed> thanks infinity
<bdrung> maybe it would be good to file a bug against waagent in the BTS to ask for an opinion. either we should adopt the Debian name or Debian should adopt Ubuntu's name.
<utlemming> I can take that as a work item for this cycle
<bdrung> depending on the outcome, one of the two source package should be removed (and all needed changed applied to the remaining source package)
<stgraber> oh, I guess I should also publicly state this since I've only done so in private to the board. I've been doing a fair amount of SRU review mostly of walinuxagent and haven't seen any problem with those so far. utlemming does a good job of getting all the right bits SRUed where it matters and keeping track of the state of Ubuntu Server on Azure.
<bdrung> #vote Should Ben Howard get upload rights for walinuxagent and hv-kvp-daemon-init and get Ubuntu membership?
<meetingology> Please vote on: Should Ben Howard get upload rights for walinuxagent and hv-kvp-daemon-init and get Ubuntu membership?
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<stgraber> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from stgraber
<tumbleweed> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from tumbleweed
<barry> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from barry
<bdrung> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from bdrung
<infinity> utlemming: Congrats.
<utlemming> :)
<ScottK> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from ScottK
<bdrung> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Should Ben Howard get upload rights for walinuxagent and hv-kvp-daemon-init and get Ubuntu membership?
<meetingology> Votes for:5 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<bdrung> utlemming: congrats.
<stgraber> utlemming: so normally I'd grant you those rights immediatel,y however since I've expired from the technical board and no new board has been elected since, it'll take a little while.
<stgraber> utlemming: I'll have to poke the Launchpad folks to figure out whether someone can cowboy the ACL in there for me ;)
<utlemming> ack, sounds good
<bdrung> utlemming: I consider having PPU + Ubuntu Membership to be more than Ubuntu Contributing Developer (which just grants recognition and Ubuntu membership). do you still want to become Ubuntu Contributing Developer?
<utlemming> er, I think that PPU + Ubuntu Membership is fine
<utlemming> I'll work towards MOTU next
<bdrung> #topic Any other business
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Any other business
<bdrung> anything else to discuss?
<stgraber> nothing here
<tumbleweed> nor here
<barry> same
<bdrung> okay.
<bdrung> micahg will be the next chair (following our list)
<bdrung> thanks for coming.
<bdrung> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Nov  4 19:51:40 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-11-04-19.10.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-11-04-19.10.html
<barry> thanks bdrung
<bdrung> you're welcome.
#ubuntu-meeting 2013-11-05
<arosales> any folks here for the ubuntu-server meeting
<arosales> I think a lot of server folks are at ODS Hong Kong
 * arosales will send a note to the ubuntu-server list
<psusi> isn't it time for the kernel meeting?
#ubuntu-meeting 2013-11-06
 * slickymaster is away: (Dinner time)
#ubuntu-meeting 2013-11-07
 * slangasek waves
<jodh> o/
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Nov  7 16:03:34 2013 UTC.  The chair is slangasek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Lightning round
<slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e barry doko stgraber jodh bdmurray slangasek cjwatson xnox stokachu)
<slangasek> doko stgraber xnox cjwatson jodh barry stokachu slangasek bdmurray
<slangasek> doko_: please :)
<doko_> - Linaro Connect
<doko_> - visiting the client sprint on Friday
<doko_> - some initial toolchain work
<doko_> (done)
<stgraber> Merges:
<stgraber>  - Done with most of my usual set, helping with a couple more
<stgraber>  - Slowly processing the resolvconf one
<stgraber> LTSP hackfest (Wednesday afternoon till Sunday):
<stgraber>  - Discussed the plans for LTSP 6
<stgraber>  - Made some progress on libnss-sshauth and libpam-sshauth (modules allowing a machine to authenticate based on the result of an ssh connection to another machine)
<stgraber>  - Worked with vagrant to try and reduce the Debian/Ubuntu delta
<stgraber>  - Looked into possible new features for LTSP, mostly per-user session containers and checkpoint/restart support
<stgraber> LXC:
<stgraber>  - Reworked the whole LXC CI environment, triggered once per hour if a commit is there, uploading to our PPA up to twice a day, test building on Ubuntu and Debian for amd64, i386 and armhf, also building with coverity and doing a clang based test build
<stgraber>  - Various code reviews and bug fixes
<stgraber>  - Helped debug a few 3.12 related issues
<stgraber>  - Took a close look at lmctfy, trying to figure out a detailed plan for our own cgroup manager
<stgraber> System images:
<stgraber>  - Introduced two new channels for a different set of customized images
<stgraber>  - Changed the devel-* aliases to point to trusty (expect a full update next time)
<stgraber> Release:
<stgraber>  - Tried to empty most of the queues as best I could, I think we're pretty much caught up on pending SRUs now at least
<stgraber>  - Planned a bunch of sessions for vUDS (release, lxc, cgroup management)
<stgraber> Other:
<stgraber>  - Been working on IPv6 patches for a few server related packages I use and that were failing quite badly in IPv6-only environment
<stgraber>  
<stgraber> TODO this week:
<stgraber>  - resolveconf merge
<stgraber>  - Get Android test builds in the LXC CI infrastructure
<stgraber>  - Try to integrate Oracle RPM builds to the LXC CI infrastructure
<stgraber>  - LXC work on container autostart
<stgraber>  - Prepare for LXC 1.0~alpha2
<stgraber> (DONE)
<xnox> * Transitions: bost1.49 removed, boost1.53 removal pending
<xnox>   mini-transition resolutions, db5.1 removal pending ubuntu-keyboard
<xnox>   release with fix to work with pinyin4.
<xnox> * Many upstart code reviews done.
<xnox> * Emulator:
<xnox>   - does have adbd/networking, and in the archive.
<xnox>   - rsalvetti/sergiusens is digging into GL issues (segfault when
<xnox>   accessing ThreadLocalStorage OpenGL pre-allocated slots :-/) at the
<xnox>   moment recompiling kernel & bionic and some such.
<xnox>   - From segfault we are up at -> error EGL_NOT_INITIALIZED
<xnox> * Doing merges, from interesting ones crytpsetup done (brings
<xnox>   TrueCrypt support) and mdadm is still todo (also see mdadm fakeraid
<xnox>   vUDS session)
<xnox> * Next week Debian Mini-conf UK Thursday-Sunday.
<xnox> * TODO: - ubiquity code reviews (not done from last meeting, more came
<jodh> xnox: >Many upstart code reviews done: thanks!
<xnox> in)
<xnox> (DONE)
<cjwatson> Canonical client planning sprint.
<cjwatson> Merged Brian's chroot management support into lp:click and got it working well enough for a sprint demo (which was well-received).  Generally updated people outside Foundations on our plan for cross-building/emulation for app testing.
<cjwatson> Merged ben from unstable and ported transition tracker to new version in trusty, gaining us Depends: foo:any support, better level calculation, and a better index.
<cjwatson> Working on FusionIO disk detection in GRUB (bug 1237519).
<ubottu> bug 1237519 in grub2 (Ubuntu) "Grub2 fails to install to non-standard device path" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1237519
<cjwatson> Some multiarch conversions to help with targeted cross-build situations.
<cjwatson> LP adjustment to rely only on one other machine for running germinate rather than two (https://code.launchpad.net/~cjwatson/launchpad/configurable-germinate-base/+merge/194340).
<cjwatson> To do: finish FusionIO work, catch up on other GRUB OEM bugs, parallelise germinate across architectures in publisher, release new click version to trusty
<cjwatson> ..
<jodh> * upstart
<jodh>   - Reworked lp:~jamesodhunt/upstart/bug-1238078 (now merged).
<jodh>   - Merged lp:~jamesodhunt/upstart/bug-1235649
<jodh>   - Discussions with CI re Upstart DEP-8 testing.
<jodh>   - Wrote script to detect new Upstart jobs hitting the archive
<cjwatson> oh, I also showed off the emulator in the sprint demo, albeit with a disclaimer about lack of graphics :-)
<jodh>     (with a view to reviewing jobs):
<jodh>     http://people.canonical.com/~jhunt/upstart/scripts/check_for_new_upstart_jobs.sh
<jodh>     Now, just need to find a way to automatically detect changes to
<jodh>     upstart jobs without having to parse trusty-changes. Ideas?
<jodh>   - Overcoming ptrace limitations: Fixed 2 bugs in preliminary branch.
<jodh>     Currently working adding additional ptrace tests to ensure expected behaviour.
<jodh> Ê
<barry> system-image: LP: #1217098.  system-image 2.0 testing (looking good - waiting on LP: #1215586 for u/i and landing slot).  nexus 10 installation and testing.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1217098 in Ubuntu system image "Avoid re-downloading data files" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1217098
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1215586 in Ubuntu system image "The u/i cannot handle the array-of-dictionaries update descriptions" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1215586
<barry> vUDS: core-1311-python3-roadmap.  re-engaging with xapian upstream (lots of progress there recently).  started updating python3 porting plan for 14.04 (spreadsheets, wiki).  http://tinyurl.com/mtf9jrb
<barry> other: LP: #1248417.  started looking at LP: #1165104.  python-coverage sponsorship in debian.  converted enum34 (0.9.19-1) to pybuild and updated LibraryStyleGuide for pybuild.  PEP 8 updates.  dmb meeting.
<barry> done
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1248417 in python3-defaults (Ubuntu) "Sync python3-defaults 3.3.2-17 (main) from Debian unstable (main)" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1248417
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1165104 in oneconf (Ubuntu) "oneconf is only showing the pc you are on in raring and isn't sharing to other machines" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1165104
<xnox> jodh: i thought we had deduplication running somewhere and possibly ability to fetch md5sums of files.
<xnox> jodh: as it md5sums of all /etc/init/*
<jodh> xnox: sounds great - just define somewhere! :)
<xnox> jodh: conditional branch is out of range
<slangasek> xnox: aha; the backtrace sergiusens first shared did look like it was pointing to a TLS problem, you've confirmed now and are making headway?  Is there anything I can do to help with that, or is the debugging env sufficiently arcane that I should just stay clear?
<jodh> xnox: ?
<xnox> slangasek: there is progress, needs recompiled bionic. I didn't try it yet myself. serge and rsalveti are on it.... they did tweak TLS slots before to make bionic work at all.
<xnox> not bionic, for hybris to work.
<slangasek> xnox: ahh, ok
<slangasek> jodh: without parsing trusty-changes> grab Contents-i386.gz for the list of all packages containing jobs, and download Packages.gz to get the list of current versions; at interval of your choice, re-download the Contents and Packages; for each newly-introduced job file, or for each package version that's changed, download and compare
<jodh> slangasek: ack - thanks!
<cjwatson> note that Contents is only updated daily as it's pretty expensive to compute
<slangasek> xnox: right, TLS for bionic + hybris is something special... the work they did there is actually quite scary ;)
<jodh> cjwatson: ack
<slangasek> xnox: hmm, I wonder if that work could actually be interfering with native thread support on the bionic side?  Since most of it *did* involve "neutering threads"
<slangasek>  * Client sprint last week, lots of discussions... won't try to give you a systematic update here, you'll certainly see the discussions reflected in the UDS sessions coming up in two weeks
<slangasek>   * good discussions about how to support go on the client, which we will see more of this cycle
<slangasek>  * dates set for the Ubuntu Core sprint, please get your travel approvals in :)
<slangasek>  * helped with upstart MP reviews, we finally have the queue under control (mostly due to xnox!) and will see a new upstream release soon
<slangasek>  * upstart discussions in Debian: the question of default init system has now gone to the Debian Technical Committee
<slangasek>  * was out sick Tuesday - too much travel is bad for the body
<slangasek>  * upcoming:
<slangasek>   * Monday is Veterans' Day
<slangasek>   * I'm up for jury duty on Tuesday (and possibly longer)
<slangasek>   * looking at the emulator, and possibly even helping
<slangasek> (done)
<bdmurray> ubuntu-release-upgrader bug triage
<bdmurray> set up ubuntu security team virtual machine environment for bug testing
<bdmurray> SRU verification of bug 459418
<bdmurray> SRU verification of update-manager bug 1071057
<bdmurray> tested slangasek's fix for bug 1069019 (didn't seem to work)
<slangasek> bdmurray:
<bdmurray> uploaded and tested SRU fixes for unzip bug 580961 and bug 1199239
<ubottu> bug 459418 in lazr.restfulclient (Ubuntu Quantal) "Cache is not safe for concurrent use (by processes or threads)" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/459418
<slangasek> oops :)
<ubottu> bug 1071057 in update-manager (Ubuntu Saucy) "people report bugs about update-manager thinking it still does dist upgrades" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1071057
<ubottu> bug 1069019 in python-apt (Ubuntu Saucy) "[software-properties-gtk] can not delete, enable or modify any software source with non-ASCII characters in the comment" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1069019
<ubottu> bug 580961 in unzip (Ubuntu) "unzip fails to deal correctly with filename encodings" [Critical,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/580961
<ubottu> bug 1199239 in unzip (Ubuntu Raring) "[SRU] unzip list utf-8 (non-ascii) filenames as ??" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1199239
<bdmurray> investigation into apt bug 957231 / bug 854090
<bdmurray> investigation into bug 984785 regarding glib2-0 (hot bug)
<bdmurray> irc discussion with pitti regarding bug 1084979
<bdmurray> investigation into foundations-bugs currently receiving the most duplicates
<ubottu> bug 957231 in apt (Ubuntu Trusty) "update-manager crashed with SIGSEGV in debListParser::LoadReleaseInfo()" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/957231
<bdmurray> submitted a merge proposal for ubiquity fixing bug 1051935
<ubottu> bug 854090 in apt (Ubuntu) "aptd crashed with SIGSEGV in debListParser::LoadReleaseInfo()" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/854090
<ubottu> bug 984785 in glib2.0 (Ubuntu Precise) ".goutputstream files polluting $HOME" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/984785
<ubottu> bug 1084979 in apport (Ubuntu) "Submitting error report asks confounding questions" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1084979
<ubottu> bug 1051935 in ubiquity (Ubuntu Saucy) "Fails with SystemError when too many files are open" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1051935
<bdmurray> phased-updater work:
<bdmurray> research into contact person issue with packages sync'ed from a staging ppa (e.g. hud)
<bdmurray> updated phased-updater to add in Reply-To header and also CC me
<slangasek> xnox: have your fixes for upstart ppa recipe builds landed?  Because I still get an awful lot of build failure spam :)
<bdmurray> errors work:
<bdmurray> submitted RT regarding updating errors and daisy revisions
<bdmurray> submitted a fix for bug 1191182 (regarding version appending when selecting a package)
<ubottu> bug 1191182 in Errors "choosing a period on the main page appends a version to the query" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1191182
<bdmurray> reported and submitted a fix for errors bug 1248259 (package version drop down not displayed)
<ubottu> bug 1248259 in Errors "package_versions drop down not displayed if you use the &package url parameter" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1248259
<bdmurray> triaged errors bug 1219706
<ubottu> bug 1219706 in Errors "Follow state of bugs marked as duplicates" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1219706
<bdmurray> investigation into errors bug 1218670 regarding date range calendar
<ubottu> bug 1218670 in Errors "date range calendar does not work in firefox" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1218670
<bdmurray> pushed a daisy branch to enable saucy-proposed in the retracers
<bdmurray> planned rls:pkg:pkg_version counter changes
<bdmurray> â done
<slangasek> any questions over the above?
<slangasek> jodh: and nicely done, taking my ptrace branch off the floor and making it un-broken :)  Will be so nice to have that bug finally fixed
<doko_> slangasek, did I miss any message about the sprint?
<jodh> slangasek: thanks - most of the credit goes to you though :)
<slangasek> doko_: what kind of message?  were you cc:ed on msm's mail?
<cjwatson> 17025 N T Nov 05 Michelle Surtee        PLEASE READ: Ubuntu Core sprint - 27 - 31 Jan 2014 - London, Bluefin
<cjwatson> (no comments on my lack of inbox zero please :-P)
<xnox> slangasek: almost, there was broken commit on trunk. next set should be fine.
<bdmurray> cjwatson: wow, that makes me feel better
<doko_> slangasek, can't find it. forward would be appreciated
<slangasek> xnox: whoops. whose commit was broken?
<slangasek> doko_: does 'doko@canonical.com' reach you?
<doko_> should
<slangasek> doko_: forwarded
<slangasek> jodh, xnox: does it actually make sense to do these upstart recipe builds across the set of releases we currently build for?  (raring,saucy,trusty?)
<xnox> slangasek: integration issue. trunk & MPs passed everything, the combination of the two with new automake in trusty did not, however.
<slangasek> ah
<slangasek> ok, cool :)
<slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<xnox> slangasek: yes it does. I want to go back all the way to precise actually.
<slangasek> anything else?
<slangasek> now's a great time to discuss
<slangasek> xnox: hmm.  I think we should build for precise, but not for raring
<xnox> slangasek: ok.
<xnox> slangasek: i'll check that it still works with quantal, then step down to precise, and then disable quantal & raring dailies.
<slangasek> ok
<cjwatson> are these recipe builds on devirt?
<cjwatson> (either way, it's good to be economical with builder time, although the virt pool is worse off at the moment and probably will be until we get scalingstack)
<xnox> cjwatson: well upstart is ~8minute build.
<stgraber> we at least have one devirt PPA with builds, not sure if we still also have a virt one
<cjwatson> xnox: sure, it does add up though
<xnox> cjwatson: and armhf devirt has plenty of builders.
<cjwatson> and it's easier to argue against builds that are genuinely abusive when we're more consistent :)
<cjwatson> I agree it's not the worst problem by any means
<xnox> ok.
<slangasek> alrighty, guess we've exhausted our capacity for conversation today ;)
<slangasek> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Nov  7 16:39:57 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-11-07-16.03.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-11-07-16.03.html
<slangasek> thanks, everyone!
<barry> thanks!
<jodh> thanks!
<stgraber> thanks!
<IdleOne> DanChapman: you here?
<DanChapman> IdleOne, yes I am :-)
<IdleOne> ok cool, meeting will be starting in just a few
<DanChapman> :-)
 * hggdh awakes, like the kraken
<PabloRubianes> well here we go
<PabloRubianes> #startmeeting 2200 UTC Ubuntu Membership Board
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Nov  7 22:00:30 2013 UTC.  The chair is PabloRubianes. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | 2200 UTC Ubuntu Membership Board Meeting | Current topic:
<PabloRubianes> Hello and welcome to the Ubuntu Membership Review Board for the 2200 UTC meeting for November 7, 2013.
<PabloRubianes> The wiki page for the Review Board is available here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/Boards
<PabloRubianes> We will attempt to get through all of the applicants that have added themselves to that list before today's meeting. If we are unable to make it through the entire list due to time constraints, then at the next meeting we will pick up where we left off.
<PabloRubianes> The format for the meeting is as follows: We will go through the list of applicants one by one, by date of application (FIFO).
<PabloRubianes> Each applicant should introduce themselves (1-5 sentences) and provide links to their Ubuntu Wiki page. After the introduction the members of the Membership Review Board will review the pages and, if needed, ask the applicant further questions.
<PabloRubianes> During this time it is encouraged for other members of the community to show their support for the applicant. Do not be alarmed if the members of the Membership Review Board are quiet during this time; they are most likely reading wiki/launchpad/forum/other pages and deciding how they are going to vote.
<PabloRubianes> When the board is ready to vote, they will publicly vote in the channel with either +1, 0, or -1 (for membership, abstain, and against membership, respectively). If the sum of those numbers is positive, then the applicant is now an official Ubuntu member! (feel free congratulate them!)
<PabloRubianes> #voters IdleOne hggdh cyphermox PabloRubianes
<meetingology> Current voters: IdleOne PabloRubianes cyphermox hggdh
<PabloRubianes> Now, without any further ado, lets get started with the first applicant
<PabloRubianes> #subtopic DanChapman
<PabloRubianes> DanChapman,  are you here?
 * hggdh kicks meetingology
<DanChapman> PabloRubianes, I am indeed
<hggdh> DanChapman: please go ahead and introduce yourself
<DanChapman> Well my name is Daniel Chapman I live in the UK and am currently studying CS at university. I've been using Ubuntu since 10.10 and have been getting involved in the community for the last 6-7 months
<DanChapman> the link for my wiki page is http://wiki.ubuntu.com/dpniel and my launchpad page is launchpad.net/~dpniel
<IdleOne> DanChapman: Your main focus has been on the QA team, are there any other parts of the Ubuntusphere you contribute in?
<DanChapman> IdleOne, so far not really, I've spent most of my time writing tests for ubiquity, I plan to spread my contributions across the Ubuntusphere as time progresses, but my main focus atm is to get quality tests for ubiquity across all flavors :-)
<IdleOne> Important work for sure.
<hggdh> DanChapman: I see you proposed a humongous marge on ubiquity ;-)
<xnox> I'd like to second DanChapman for Ubuntu Membership.
<DanChapman> hggdh, It's still growing ;-p
 * xnox would have thought DanChapman would be applying via Developer Membership Board as a contributing member =)
<PabloRubianes> #voters IdleOne hggdh cyphermox PabloRubianes freeflying
<meetingology> Current voters: IdleOne PabloRubianes cyphermox freeflying hggdh
<xnox> contributing developer that is.
<IdleOne> Anybody else here to cheer for DanChapman ?
<hggdh> +1 without questions. Thank you!
<IdleOne> hggdh: vote has not started yet :P
<cyphermox> #vote
<JoseGutierrez> hello all
<hggdh> duh
<hggdh> +1 without questions. Thank you!
<xnox> IdleOne: I'm ubiquity developer =) so I simply got highlighted on "ubiquity" keyword. And DanChapman is amazing and is running in jenkins.qa.ubuntu.com
<PabloRubianes> #vote DanChapman  to obtain Ubuntu Membership
<meetingology> Please vote on: DanChapman  to obtain Ubuntu Membership
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<cyphermox> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from cyphermox
<freeflying> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from freeflying
<PabloRubianes> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from PabloRubianes
<IdleOne> +1 keep up the good work.
<meetingology> +1 keep up the good work. received from IdleOne
<hggdh> bloody hell, meetingology is really slow today. Third time is the charm, I guess
<cyphermox> IdleOne: xnox is part of the Canonical Foundations team
<hggdh> +1 without questions. Thank you!
<meetingology> +1 without questions. Thank you! received from hggdh
<PabloRubianes> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: DanChapman  to obtain Ubuntu Membership
<meetingology> Votes for:5 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<PabloRubianes> congrats DanChapman
<hggdh> DanChapman: welcome in!
<cyphermox> congrats DanChapman
<IdleOne> Congrats DanChapman. You are now an Ubuntu member!
<DanChapman> Thanks everyone :-D
 * xnox \o\ \o/ /o/
<cyphermox> don't forget to add your blog to planet.ubuntu.com :)
<hggdh> xnox: :-)
<DanChapman> cyphermox, I will do.
<IdleOne> and request your /ubuntu/member cloak in #ubuntu-irc
<DanChapman> xnox thanks for the support :-)
<PabloRubianes> and with this we end the meeting for today
<PabloRubianes> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Nov  7 22:11:24 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-11-07-22.00.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-11-07-22.00.html
<IdleOne> quick and dirty. Just how it should be :)
<DanChapman> Wow that was quick
<hggdh> indeed.
<IdleOne> there was very little to discuss, strong testimonials
<freeflying> just got my coffe :)
<hggdh> DanChapman: you can go right now and ask for your cloak, you *are* a member (via ~dpniel)
<DanChapman> hggdh i will get on that now
<DanChapman> Thanks
<hggdh> yw
<DanChapman> xnox, i didn't realise I could have applied through the Developer Membership Board
<hggdh> DanChapman: you should still apply for developer status, though. It just happens that being a dev would also give you Ubuntu membership (but being an Ubuntu member does not give you dev status)
<DanChapman> hggdh oh i see, awesome I might just do that then :-)
<hggdh> DanChapman: and, methinks, xnox might be willing to help you navigate to it
<xnox> DanChapman: "Contributing Developer" is essentially Ubuntu Membership + A badge that you are a contributing developer.
<xnox> DanChapman: i think the only "added" benefit is by default access to bugsquad team or something like that. There is no upload rights.
 * DanChapman likes badges
<xnox> DanChapman: i think it should be trivial to receive Contributing Developer. stgraber - how does one get contributing developer, if they are ubuntu member already, and said person contributes like 3k LOC to ubiquity? =)
<xnox> stgraber: can you just add him please? =)
<JoseGutierrez> the meeting to apply for membership and ended?
<TheLordOfTime> JoseGutierrez: quick and dirty it was, but to apply for membership you have to add your name for consideration ahead of time i think...
<TheLordOfTime> (I dunno, though, been a while since i had to fiddle with applying for membership xD)
<DanChapman> xnox, well I will apply for the next meeting if I need to. See what stgraber says first ;-)
<JoseGutierrez> TheLordOfTime https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/Boards/SittingMembers    I was on the list but apparently touched another day
<TheLordOfTime> ah
<TheLordOfTime> JoseGutierrez: missed that, but yeah you missed the meeting :)
 * TheLordOfTime just lurks in here BTW... :)
<TheLordOfTime> short summary, this vote:
<TheLordOfTime> [13/11/07 17:09:58] <meetingology> Voting ended on: DanChapman  to obtain Ubuntu Membership
<TheLordOfTime> [13/11/07 17:09:58] <meetingology> Votes for:5 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<TheLordOfTime> [13/11/07 17:09:58] <meetingology> Motion carried
<JoseGutierrez> TheLordOfTime arrive on time but apparently they had finished another day will be as according to time conversion teniaque be present at 17:00 hours of Colombia
<JoseGutierrez> the next meeting to apply for membership when is it?
<hggdh> JoseGutierrez: first Thrusday of the month for the 2200 UTC, third Wednesday for the 1200 UTC
<JoseGutierrez> ubuntera family thanks :)
<hggdh> JoseGutierrez: see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/Boards for more details
<JoseGutierrez> ok
#ubuntu-meeting 2013-11-09
<genii> The Pi Build Cluster funding looks like it's going to hit it's mark :)
<genii> Wrong channel, bleh.
#ubuntu-meeting 2014-11-03
<Laney> !dmb-ping
<ubottu> bdrung, ScottK, Laney, micahg, xnox, bdmurray, stgraber: DMB ping
 * bdmurray waves
 * stgraber waves
 * Laney peers at bdrung 
<Laney> Noskcaj: you here?
 * Laney waits until :10
<bdmurray> Are we finishing colin king's PPU app via e-mail?
<Laney> I was waiting to get the minutes but micahg never sent them
<Laney> what's the situation there?
<Laney> didn't get enough votes last meeting or something?
<bdmurray> [20:02] <meetingology> Voting ended on: Vote on Colin King getting upload rights to eventstat, forkstat, health-check, idlestat, powerstat, smemstat, stress-ng, thermald, fwts
<bdmurray> [20:02] <meetingology> Votes for:3 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<bdmurray> [20:02] <micahg-work> cking, we'll take the vote to the ML
<Laney> Ok, I will vote tomorrow
<Laney> I'm off now, got someone over for dinner
<Laney> had to go away to come do DMB but if that's not necessary :)
<Laney> ttyl
 * Noskcaj here
<Noskcaj> sorry. Family has made me go on holidays to a place with no internet or alarm clocks, slept in to 6:40am
<Noskcaj> Laney, stgraber bdmurray ^
<Noskcaj> Is there anything i can do to not wait the remainder of my life for MOTU?
<bdmurray> Noskcaj: You could ask to have your application reviewed via email.
<Noskcaj> bdmurray, last time that took 2 months then an irc meeting, but i'll look into that when i have proper internet again
 * jdstrand guesses the dmb meeting is over
<jdstrand> hi!
<tyhicks> hello
<sarnold> hello
<jjohansen> hi
<jdstrand> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Nov  3 20:22:53 2014 UTC.  The chair is jdstrand. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<jdstrand> first off, sorry the meeting is a bit late today
<jdstrand> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<jdstrand> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Announcements
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Announcements
<jdstrand> Thanks Gianfranco Costamagna (LocutusOfBorg) for providing debdiffs for precise and trusty for drupal7 (LP: #1381969). Your work is very much appreciated and will keep Ubuntu users secure. Great job! :)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1381969 in drupal7 (Ubuntu) "CVE-2014-3704" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1381969
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<jdstrand> I'll go first
<jdstrand> I'm on community this week
<jdstrand> I've got some updates I need to get to
<jdstrand> I'm hoping this is the week that I adjust UCT for derivative branches
<jdstrand> I have a small update to click-reviewers-tools
<jdstrand> and then finish up some apparmor work
<jdstrand> specifically, finish up some apparmor-easyprof-ubuntu updates for vivid and finish up click-apparmor 0.3 upload for vivid
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: you're up
<mdeslaur> I'm in the happy place this week
<mdeslaur> I've been busy backporting the ruby security fixes to the zillion versions we support
<mdeslaur> they should be going out this week
<mdeslaur> after that, there's a bunch of new CVEs I have to look at
<mdeslaur> and that's a bout it
<mdeslaur> sbeattie: you're up
<sbeattie> I am resurrecting my pie-by-default-on-amd64 compiler patch (it doesn't apply to the current gcc-4.9 in utopic/vivid)
<sbeattie> I need to review the apparmor utils open bugs and commit to hand off to mdeslaur for a trusty apparmor SRU.
<sbeattie> I have some other apparmor tasks on my plate, and I need to sync up with jjohansen and tyhicks for any priority work they have for me.
<sbeattie> that's pretty much it for me.
<sbeattie> tyhicks: tag.
<tyhicks> I'm working on making the apparmor policy cache setup code and the binary policy loading code into a standalone form that can be moved into libapparmor
<tyhicks> I'm building on top of some patches that jj gave to me a while back
<tyhicks> I'm done with the binary policy loading code
<tyhicks> working on the cache setup code now
<tyhicks> I also want to review the proposed kdbus lsm hooks
<tyhicks> and I need to prepare and send a pull request for a couple ecryptfs kernel fixes
<tyhicks> that's it for me
<tyhicks> jjohansen: you're up
<jjohansen> I have a little more to do with the recent kvm CVEs
<jjohansen> I have some patches for apparmor I need to push to the kt, and another set to go upstream
<jjohansen> I need to get back to working on the stacking patches, and cleanup the whole dev mess so it can get pushed upstream
<jjohansen> and I need to look at the LSM stacking patches wrt apparmor
<jdstrand> dev mess?
<jjohansen> after that next year I'll start ^W^W^W^W^W sarnold your up
<sarnold> hehe
<jjohansen> jdstrand: collapse the dev tree patch on top of patch into a reasonable set that can be reviewed and pushed up stream
<jdstrand> ok. I'll call that 'patch cleanup in preparation for review' :)
<jjohansen> as it stands now, you have a patch with bugs, and then those bugs get addressed by patches later in the series etc, very hard to review something like that
<jjohansen> yep
 * jdstrand nods
<sarnold> it does somewhat deflate the victory of finding a bug, "AHA! I've found a mistake!" ... "oh. john already fixed it."
<jdstrand> sarnold: I think you're up
<sarnold> I'm on triage this week; I still have to polish and post my notes from linux plumbers conference; I'd really like to get a modern phone image installed and start writing applications for it -- I'm starting to feel a bit left behind there, and want to make sure I don't miss it entirely
<sarnold> but my week is relatively unscheduled, so I can do apparmor patch reviews or cve fixes if needed
<sarnold> oh to be near the start of a cycle and not knee-deep in over-late MIRs :)
<jdstrand> seriously
<jdstrand> :)
<jjohansen> sarnold: we can fix that
<jjohansen> :)
 * sbeattie gleefully awaits sarnold's cve-triage phone app.
<sarnold> jjohansen: haha
<sarnold> sbeattie: oh my
<sarnold> (actually, a cve scope seems like a useful starting point..)
 * jdstrand was thinking about a USN scope
<jdstrand> a cve scope would be cool too
<sarnold> .. something to search our uct, usn, debian's database, etc... maybe little scopes for each and then an aggregation scope for all of it? dunno...)
 * jdstrand notes chris is eod and will report for him
<jdstrand> sarnold: did you have more to report?
<sarnold> jdstrand: no
<jdstrand> ok, chris is working on bug #1370366 primarily
<ubottu> bug 1370366 in Oxide "Add an API to better manage the top-header" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1370366
<jdstrand> and a bunch of reviews. there might be some 1.3 backporting to 1.2 to do for rtm, but this discussion is ongoing
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
<jdstrand> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.
<jdstrand> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/sup-mail.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/openvswitch.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/isync.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/pdns.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/ganeti.html
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
<jdstrand> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
<jdstrand> mdeslaur, sbeattie, tyhicks, jjohansen, sarnold: thanks!
<jdstrand> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Nov  3 20:53:14 2014 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-11-03-20.22.moin.txt
<tyhicks> thanks
<jjohansen> thanks jdstrand
<sbeattie> jdstrand: thanks!
<sarnold> thanks jdstrand!
<mdeslaur> thanks jdstrand!
#ubuntu-meeting 2014-11-04
<ogasawara> #startmeeting
<ogasawara> ##
<ogasawara> ## This is the Ubuntu Kernel Team weekly status meeting.
<ogasawara> ##
<ogasawara> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Nov  4 17:00:24 2014 UTC.  The chair is ogasawara. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<ogasawara> # Meeting Etiquette
<ogasawara> #
<ogasawara> # NOTE: '..' indicates that you are finished with your input.
<ogasawara> #       'o/' indicates you have something to add (please wait until you are recognized)
<ogasawara> Roll Call for Ubuntu Kernel Weekly Status Meeting
<cking_> \o
<apw> o/
<smb> o/
<ppisati> o/
<henrix> o/
<chiluk> o/
<rtg> o/
<kamal> o/
<ogasawara> [TOPIC] Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
<ogasawara> Release metrics and incoming bug data can be reviewed at the following link:
<ogasawara> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/kt-meeting.txt
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
<ogasawara> ..
<ogasawara> [TOPIC] Status: Vivid Development Kernel (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> The master-next branch of our Vivid kernel has bee rebased to the
<ogasawara> lastest v3.18-rc3 upstream kernel.  We have still witheld uploading to
<ogasawara> the archive until we've progressed to a later -rc candidate.
<ogasawara> -----
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Vivid Development Kernel (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> Important upcoming dates:
<ogasawara> The Vivid ReleaseSchedule has not yet been posted.
<ogasawara> ..
<ogasawara> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/VividVervet/ReleaseSchedule
<ogasawara> Thurs Oct  9 - Utopic Kernel Freeze (~2 days away)
<ogasawara> Thurs Oct 16 - Utopic Final Freeze (~1 weeks away)
<ogasawara> Thurs Oct 23 - Utopic 14.10 Release (~2 weeks away)
<ogasawara> ..
<ogasawara> dammit, I'll fix those later
<ogasawara> [TOPIC] Status: CVE's
<ogasawara> The current CVE status can be reviewed at the following link:
<ogasawara> http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/cve/pkg/ALL-linux.html
<ogasawara> [TOPIC] Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Vivid/Utopic/Trusty/Precise/Lucid (bjf/henrix/kamal/arges)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: CVE's
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Vivid/Utopic/Trusty/Precise/Lucid (bjf/henrix/kamal/arges)
<ogasawara> bjf: [TOPIC] Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Vivid/Utopic/Trusty/Precise/Lucid (bjf/henrix/kamal/arges)
<ogasawara> ??
<bjf> Status for the main kernels, until today (Sept. 30):
<bjf>   *   Lucid - Verification & Testing
<bjf>   * Precise - Holding (waiting on upstream CVE fixes)
<bjf>   *  Trusty - Verification & Testing
<bjf>   *  Utopic - Prep
<bjf>  
<bjf> Current opened tracking bugs details:
<bjf>   * http://kernel.ubuntu.com/sru/kernel-sru-workflow.html
<bjf> For SRUs, SRU report is a good source of information:
<bjf>   * http://kernel.ubuntu.com/sru/sru-report.html
<bjf>  
<bjf>  
<bjf> Schedule:
<bjf>  
<bjf> cycle: 31-Oct through 22-Nov
<bjf> ====================================================================
<bjf>          31-Oct   Last day for kernel commits for this cycle
<bjf> 02-Nov - 08-Nov   Kernel prep week.
<bjf> 09-Nov - 15-Nov   Bug verification & Regression testing.
<bjf> 16-Nov - 22-Nov   Regression testing & Release to -updates.
<bjf>  
<bjf> ..
<ogasawara> [TOPIC] Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
<ogasawara> ok, thanks everyone
<ogasawara> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Nov  4 17:05:01 2014 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-11-04-17.00.moin.txt
<kamal> thanks ogasawara
#ubuntu-meeting 2014-11-06
<barry> o/
<sil2100> \o
 * stgraber waves
<stgraber> #startmeeting Foundations team meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Nov  6 16:01:14 2014 UTC.  The chair is stgraber. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Foundations team meeting | Current topic:
<jodh> o/
<stgraber> #topic Round table
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Foundations team meeting | Current topic: Round table
<mvo> hi
<stgraber> stgraber@dakara:~$ echo $(shuf -e barry doko stgraber jodh bdmurray cjwatson caribou infinity mvo sil2100 robru)
<stgraber> bdmurray sil2100 infinity barry doko mvo cjwatson caribou robru stgraber jodh
<stgraber> hopefully I didn't forget anyone :)
<bdmurray> updated daisy/retracer.py to use gdb to see if a core file is valid
<bdmurray> resolved retracer corrupt core file detection issue in daisy r565
<bdmurray> updated daisy/submit.py to not ask for core files from click packages
<bdmurray> updated daisy-retracer charm cronjob to start counting 15.04 users
<bdmurray> investigation into where click package counters appear in the error tracker
<bdmurray> submitted RTs to have daisy updated on production to r562, r564, r565
<bdmurray> research into seb128's file-roller retracing failure (missing ddebs)
<bdmurray> tested crash reporting from Live CDs
<bdmurray> verified apport and whoopsie are working from live cds in utopic (not update-notifier though)
<bdmurray> uploaded whoopsie to vivid that will run if ubiquity-dm is running
<bdmurray> uploaded casper to vivid that allows inotify on /var/crash to work
<bdmurray> email to ubuntu quality about crash reporting from Live CDs
<bdmurray> SRU verification of apport bug LP: #1354571 (invalid core dumps)
<bdmurray> attempted SRU verification of apport bug LP: #1372665 (unable to recreate original issue)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1354571 in apport (Ubuntu Precise) "apport-retrace ignores warnings from gdb" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1354571
<bdmurray> wrote a clickhook.py (apport hook) to gather package information about click packages
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1372665 in apport (Ubuntu Trusty) "apport reports suspend/resume failure twice on boot (apportcheckresume)" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1372665
<bdmurray> uploaded clickhook.py to vivid thereby improving the situation for apport bug LP: #1365079
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1365079 in apport (Ubuntu) "apport should gather package information about click packages" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1365079
<bdmurray> verified the interim solution for apport bug 1365079 (click package info for crashes)
<bdmurray> reported whoopsie bug LP: #1389357 regarding CRASH_DB_IDENTIFIER
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1389357 in whoopsie (Ubuntu) "whoopsie reuses CRASH_DB_IDENTIFIER on next run" [Low,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1389357
<bdmurray> reported whoopsie-preferences bug regarding apport / whoopsie running LP: #1389407
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1389407 in whoopsie-preferences (Ubuntu RTM) "choosing not to report "app crashes and errors" leaves apport and whoopsie running" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1389407
<bdmurray> worked with davmor2 regarding his whoopsie-identifier issue
<bdmurray> came up with a plan for distribution-upgrade crash reports and EoL releases
<bdmurray> IS / UE sync up call
<bdmurray> â done
<sil2100> o/
<sil2100> - Landing team work, preparing landing e-mails
<sil2100> - Coordinating image promotion to ubuntu-rtm
<sil2100> - CI Train maintenance and features:
<sil2100>   * Switching native RTM builds to use 15.04 in their version numbers
<sil2100>   * Some small work related to changelog bug number fixes...
<sil2100> - More on updating the Landing Team documentation
<sil2100>   * Added SupportedDevices
<sil2100>   * Updated LandingTeamProcess with latest information
<sil2100>   * Misc changes here and there
<sil2100> - Discussions related to image readiness (for RTM)
<sil2100> - Preparations for UOS - poking for sessions
<sil2100> - Gathering intel on missing landings from ubuntu-rtm in vivid
<sil2100>   * Writing some helper scripts for that
<sil2100>   * Still need some time to finish up the proper list of non-synced changes
<sil2100> - Bug reviews for subsequent RTM milestones
<sil2100> - Discussions regarding the landing and promotion process for milestones
<sil2100> - Announcement e-mails (again!)
<sil2100> Holidays: next week off \o/
<sil2100> (done)
<barry> no infinity?
<barry> system-image: 2.5.1 landed in rtm.  LP: #1374459 landed in trunk (for 3.0).
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1374459 in Ubuntu system image "Support alternative downloaders" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1374459
<barry> debuntu: LP: #1387323; LP: #1381177; vivid upgraded one machine so far so good; looking at rc bugs for jessie and filed debian bug #768334
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1387323 in emacs24 (Ubuntu) "Merge emacs24 24.4+1-4 from Debian unstable" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1387323
<slangasek> no infinity this morning, no
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1381177 in pybootchartgui (Ubuntu) "pybootchartgui raises IndexError" [Critical,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1381177
<barry> other: helped with lots of interviews for open team positions
<ubottu> Debian bug 768334 in src:genshi "genshi: We now have what we need to re-enable genshi for Python 3.4" [Important,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/768334
<barry> (done)
<doko> I'll go at the end ...
<mvo> Short version to avoid being confused with people who write very long activity reports ;)
<mvo> Worked on apt (new abi breaking release coming soon, prepare for some
<mvo> turbulences), click, system-image, helped the SDK team and scopes
<mvo> team, did merges. We have a i386/arm core image now :) But its still
<mvo> too big :(
<mvo> [full 61 lines gtimelog data available on request ;)]
<mvo> (done)
<cjwatson> I've been on vacation, and am on conference leave today and tomorrow at https://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/Miniconf-UK/2014
<mvo> nice!
<cjwatson> (just happened to notice the highlight in this channel at the right time)
<caribou> ok, i'm next
<caribou> * BugFix : Ongoing work on libnss-ldap Critical bug LP: #1387594 - Merge waiting for sponsorship - Will then SRU
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1387594 in libnss-ldap (Ubuntu) "init: symbol lookup error: /lib/powerpc64le-linux-gnu/libnss_ldap.so.2: undefined symbol: __libc_lock_lock" [Critical,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1387594
<caribou> * BugFix : Ubuntu Cloud Archive incompatibility between IceHouse and Precise
<caribou>   - Fix commited to U.C.A
<caribou> * Preparing merge of my packages
<caribou> * Investigation on SystemD
<caribou> * Finalize makedumpfile/kdump-tools test environment
<caribou> (done)
<robru> * citrain
<robru>  - fixed it to stop considering a merged merge as 'not Approved' (this makes it easier to do trunk releases using an already-merged merge)
<robru>  - simplified some redundant code
<robru>  - massive overhaul changing relative paths into absolute paths. not finished yet, but I *think* I fixed the bug where it cd's into the wrong dir and then creates a bunch of files and then can't find them later because they're not in the right place. using absolute paths ensures everything is where we expect it to be regardless of the cwd.
<robru> * various and sundry landings as well
<robru> (done)
<stgraber> oh, it's me already?
<stgraber>  - lxc:
<stgraber>     - Updated the upstream images to not run sshd by default
<stgraber>     - Updated the upstream images to not setup default passwords
<stgraber>       (instead recommend using lxc-attach)
<stgraber>  - lxd:
<stgraber>     - Public announcement and answering questions about it
<stgraber>       http://www.ubuntu.com/cloud/tools/lxd
<stgraber>       https://lists.linuxcontainers.org/pipermail/lxc-devel/2014-November/010817.html
<stgraber>     - Setup the project (contributing guidelines, licensing, ...)
<stgraber>     - Pushed an initial specification for the client user experience:
<stgraber>       https://github.com/lxc/lxd/blob/master/specs/command-line-user-experience.md
<stgraber>     - Initial reviews for the first few pull requests
<stgraber>  - system-image
<stgraber>     - Published operation documentation at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ImageBasedUpgrades/ServerOperation
<stgraber>     - Did some testing of image reverts to make sure things are now solid
<stgraber>     - Discussed bug 1387214 and potential ways of recovering from fs corruption
<ubottu> bug 1387214 in initramfs-tools-ubuntu-touch (Ubuntu) "[TOPBLOCKER] file corruption on touch images in rw portions of the filesystem" [Critical,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1387214
<stgraber>  - other
<stgraber>     - SRU reviews
<stgraber>     - DB review and restore for the ISO Tracker following the Drupal CVE
<stgraber>  - kernel
<stgraber>     - Tracked down a regression in 3.16 on servers with recent Intel NIC
<stgraber>       spamming dmesg with a WARN per packet due to broken code in hardware
<stgraber>       offloading (affecting my home hardware).
<stgraber>     - Wrote and published an exploit for the IPv6 neighborhood table overflow.
<stgraber>       http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/containers/2014-November/035292.html
<stgraber>  
<stgraber> (DONE)
<jodh> * system-image:
<jodh>   - Lots of improvements to the ubuntu-core-upgrader.
<jodh>   - Currently writing a set of integration tests.
<jodh> * misc: out 3 days last week.
<jodh> â´
<stgraber> doko:
<doko> - getting started with GCC 5
<doko> - work on crashes when running the GCC testsuite on powerpc
<doko> - binutils update and backports
<doko> - updated two local machines to 14.10
<doko> (done)
<stgraber> slangasek: do you have something read to copy/paste or are you too busy?
<slangasek> stgraber: nothing from me, sorry
<stgraber> ok
<stgraber> Does anyone have something to present? (guess not, but can't hurt to ask)
<sil2100> ENOTIME for most people I suspect
<stgraber> yeah, figured as much
<stgraber> #topic AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Foundations team meeting | Current topic: AOB
<stgraber> anything else?
<bdmurray> Next Tuesday is a US Holiday - Veteran's Day
<bdmurray> So I'll be out then
 * barry will very likely swap day it
<bdmurray> mvo: Do you have any ideas about bug 1384946?
<ubottu> bug 1384946 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu) "Trying to upgrade to utopic, cannot compute changes due to gnuplot" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1384946
<mvo> bdmurray: not right now, let me look
<bdmurray> during a P to T upgrade gnuplot-x11 and gnuplot-nox are kept, but then conflict on upgrade to Utopic
<mvo> bdmurray: meh, I think you asked me about this before, didn't you? sorry for that
<bdmurray> mvo: yeah, but it was at the end of the sprint. ;-)
 * mvo nods
<bdmurray> that's it from me
 * mvo does not have anything else either
<stgraber> alright
<stgraber> thanks everyone!
<stgraber> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Nov  6 16:18:46 2014 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-11-06-16.01.moin.txt
<barry> thanks!
<mvo> thanks
<sil2100> o/
<caribou> thanks stgraber
<mvo> stgraber: short meeting, you should always lead it :)
<stgraber> well, it's quick when you don't have to wait on people :)
<jodh> thanks!
<bdmurray> mvo: and its quick when you don't paste a short story. ;-)
<czajkowski> aloha
<elfy> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Nov  6 17:05:42 2014 UTC.  The chair is elfy. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<elfy> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda
<elfy> Hi everyone - it's time for this weeks CC meeting with the Forum Council and Core Apps
<elfy> first up is the Forum Council - and I'm the only one from the FC here - so ...
<elfy> #chair YokoZar czajkowski mhall119
<meetingology> Current chairs: YokoZar czajkowski elfy mhall119
<YokoZar> Morning then ;)
<elfy> :)
<YokoZar> Put on your other hat please
<elfy> t'is on :)
<mhall119> hello everyone
<mhall119> elfy: so how is the FC doing these days?
<elfy> pretty good thanks
<mhall119> IIRC, the last checkup we had there were some issues with the bots and/or some people
<mhall119> or was that the IRCC...
<elfy> we've had quite a bit going on lately
<elfy> yea - that was ircc :)
<elfy> forum was 10 last month
<elfy> there's been a lot of work we've done to clear up some of the sub-forums, but that's an ongoing issue
<mhall119> is the FC fully staffed and is everybody active?
<elfy> we started to blog about forum things too
<elfy> nope - not fully staffed
<elfy> we had a resignation from Iowan
<mhall119> ok, have you called for nominations yet?
<elfy> we're not in a huge rush with that
<elfy> mhall119: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ForumCouncil/TeamNomination#Procedure_for_nomination_of_moderation_team_member_to_Forum_Council
<elfy> we'd hope to be somewhere close to contacting the CC in a couple of months at the most
<YokoZar> Has forums usage been trending up or down?
<elfy> YokoZar: it's pretty static, with the normal upswing in April/May and October/November
<mhall119> elfy: how has the migration to SSO gone?
<elfy> well - the best that can be said is that it happened
<mhall119> heh, fair enough
<mhall119> any outstanding issues from that?
<mhall119> or anything else that you need help/feedback from Canonical on?
<elfy> only that we would like to be on a level footing with other services that use SSO
<elfy> the major issue our users have is that they get logged out
<elfy> I logged into AU 6 months ago - if I go back I'm still logged in
<elfy> with the forum if you don't visit it within 24 hours you get logged out
<elfy> for AU read anything that we can use SSO with :)
<elfy> while I personally don't have an issue as I'm not away for longer than 12 hours - others hate it :)
<elfy> and of course it's the 6 of us that get hit with that stick :)
<mhall119> elfy: is there an RT filed for that?
<elfy> if Canonical can help to get a bit of traction on that - we'd be over the moon - even if it's a definitive IS can't do that because of vB/SSO
<elfy> I think so mhall119 - I can dig it out later
<mhall119> it wouldn't be SSO, it's consumer-website specific I think
<mhall119> summit has a long session live, while etherpad has a short one, for example
<elfy> possibly - don't know - I just know what they've said in the past
<elfy> yes - etherpad is a few hours at most
<mhall119> elfy: if you have an RT send it my way and I'll try and get a status update on it
<elfy> I'll let you know the ticket
<mhall119> if you don't have an RT, file one and then do the same :)
<elfy> yep - cool
<elfy> I think that's about it from me
<czajkowski> elfy: I know the work you do is great and I do see the FC has raised its awareness from you, but are there other voices in there I worry it all falls on your shoulder
<elfy> oh - we're discussing ways to shout out recurring issues that people on forum are reporting
<elfy> eg we get a LOT of threads from people usinig LVM and not watching /boot filling up
<elfy> czajkowski: it's mostly the time for these meeetings - others were hoping to be here today, bapoumba howefield
<elfy> others have work timing issues
<czajkowski> nds ok
<YokoZar> Huh, ok
<elfy> and the FC is actually a lot noiser internally than just me saying things :)
<mhall119> that's good to hear
<elfy> YokoZar: what does that mean :)
<mhall119> elfy: so how are you promoting those recurring issues? Bug reports?
<YokoZar> Sticky threads with links, I'd imagine.
<elfy> when there is existing reports - we make sure to link the bug into threads
<mhall119> ok
<elfy> YokoZar: not yet
<elfy> this is quite a recent discussion - like a fortnight at most
<elfy> what we DON'T want to do - is point people at bugs generally, people just add pointless comment rather than me too it
<mhall119> elfy: if there isn't an existing bug report, do mods create one, or ask the original poster to create one?
<elfy> and that just annoys rather than helps
<elfy> mhall119: as I said this is quite new discussion - but we did do one with the /boot partition filling issue
<mhall119> ok
<mhall119> I'm wondering if there's a good way to let the developers know that these are recurring issues on the forums...
<elfy> well - that's kind of the thinking
<mhall119> other than having more people mark it as affecting them
<elfy> bug reports is the way to start it for sure
 * mhall119 puts his Canonical Community Team hat on
<elfy> but possible start would be a similar thing with UWN
<mhall119> let me know what the FC decides on that and if we can help organize and promote the effort
 * mhall119 pop hat
<elfy> like the AU stats - but we'd need to manually do it, sort of "We're seeing a lot of people with foo"
<elfy> ok mhall119 - thanks :)
<mhall119> any other questions or comments for the Forums Council?
<mhall119> guess not, thank you elfy :)
<elfy> welcome - thanks mhall119 czajkowski YokoZar
<mhall119> #topic Core Apps checkin
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Core Apps checkin
<mhall119> popey: around and ready?
<elfy> I'll put my other hat back on now :)
<popey> ya
<elfy> hi popey
<popey> Wassup CC
<mhall119> so I really don't have questions, since I have a weekly call with popey on this topic
<popey> Ok, lemme say a couple of things for the logs..
<popey> Since the last time we spoke, we had a Canonical Devices sprint in Washington DC
 * mhall119 missed out
<popey> We invited 8 of the core apps developers, and 2 developers who were not "core apps" technically
<popey> but they were developers of apps in the store, who were heavy users of the SDK
<popey> It was _awesome_
<popey> (slightly less awesome than it could have been because mhall119 wasn't there of course) :D
<popey> There's been a bunch of blog posts from various people about their experience.
<mhall119> :)
<popey> They were all very professional, friendly, productive and helpful.
<mhall119> I'm glad they had so much face-time with the platform and SDK teams to give them feedback and get support
<popey> We got _so_ much done in that week.
<popey> We need to do more in-person events.
<popey> Not necessarily "Lets do UDS again", but more "Lets do more in person things"
<mhall119> I think we're all in agreement on that
<czajkowski> nods
<YokoZar> hah, ok
<popey> The fact that there were 230 people in one venue meant we could go and grab people and have conversations to sort issues out
<popey> loads of those hallway conversations we used to have
<czajkowski> popey: I think it's nice to see happen, however to many it was still odd to see as they are not included and have no way of being involved as not core dev - also the line of men there didn't really show diversity.  I appreciate this isn't dwn to you but to many women it may appear rather exclusive.
<YokoZar> There's a reason silicon valley is a physical location ;)
<popey> czajkowski: I think you're raising two issues there.
<popey> let me see.
<popey> 1) non core apps people aren't invited
<popey> 2) not diverse enough
<popey> Am I right?
<YokoZar> czajkowski: Unfortunately I feel that live events will always surface our underlying diversity problem
<popey> Well, taking 2) first, 220 of the people were Canonical employees. I have near-zero influence on the hiring process of my employer.
<popey> It is a fact that the vast majority of engineers in the company are men.
<mhall119> this is kind of off the subject of core apps
<mhall119> can we finish that topic first?
<popey> Indeed, however it does lead to the second thing.
<popey> I would like to see more diversity in core apps specifically.
<popey> because that _is_ all guys.
<popey> I will take an action to look at how I can improve that, thanks czajkowski
<mhall119> popey: something like a OPW for Core Apps?
<popey> OPW?
<mhall119> outreach program for women, the (I think) GNOME initiative
<popey> Ah okay. Sure.
<popey> I'm happy to have ideas thrown at me, and have a session at Open Week if you think it's useful?
<czajkowski> popey: thanks
<czajkowski> I do understand it's not all down to you
<popey> Sure, but I'm one of the people who recruit devs for core apps, so it kinda is â»
<popey> But it's now on my list, where previously it was at the back of my mind.
<popey> thanks.
<popey> So anyway, back to core apps.
<mhall119> +1 for an Open Week or UOS session on that topic
<popey> The event gave us a spurt of work during the week, and after too.
<popey> We still need to recruit more developers as some of them are busy / burning out / spread thin
 * czajkowski hugs popey thank you! 
<popey> and we'll certainly talk about that at UOS next week.
<popey> Do you have any specific questions for me?
<YokoZar> Regarding CoreApps -- I've seen some chatter online about how Canonical's focus might be a bit unclear with all the different directions it's going lately.  I'm beginning to wonder if this is related to the lack of UDS keynotes.
<mhall119> so the topic has come up a couple of times before about giving app developers a path to Ubuntu Membership, I'd like to see some movemement on that
<popey> YokoZar: Ah, now that's an interesting point.
<mhall119> YokoZar: how is that related to Core Apps/
<mhall119> ?
<popey> its tangentially related.
<YokoZar> CoreApps is the newest thing in that sense, and I'm wondering how we can show this sort of commitment clearly
<popey> I had a conversation with Rick Spencer in DC where he was surprised to hear about (some opinion / thoughts from the community)
<popey> I think he thought we'd communicated (this thing that I wont say but doesn't matter to this conversation) well, but actually it seems people in the wider user/developer community possibly had the wrong end of the stick
<popey> and that as a result perhaps we aren't communicating our overall strategy clearly
<popey> some of that is partly down to the usual commercial contractual obligations (the devices we can't talk about)
<popey> but I think there is room for more "Keynote" style "Trajectory setting"
<popey> because we're all heads-down working hard, coming up for air now and then
<popey> and the community / users / bloggers are getting the wrong end of the stick in a lot of ways
<popey> related to devices / convergence / click / packaging / unity 8 etc
<mhall119> didn't rick do such a keynote last UOS?
<popey> yeah, but with all due respect, rick isn't mark standing on stage giving a keynote
<popey> nearly _nobody_ blogs about what rick says
<popey> mark says "we're doing bunnies this year" and bloggers go mental for it.
<popey> Hope that semi-ramble makes sense.
<popey> ...
<elfy> it did to me
<YokoZar> It makes perfect sense
<mhall119> so we need rick to grow a beard then? :)
<popey> Yes.
<mhall119> ok, I've got a TODO to follow up with mark about a UOS keynote, so I'll work on that
<mhall119> any other questions or comments for popey about core apps?
<elfy> not here
<elfy> thanks from me popey - gtg for a bit now :)
<popey> thanks elfy
<mhall119> #topic open
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: open
<mhall119> any other topics for the CC before we wrap up?
<YokoZar> Thanks folks
<mhall119> ok, thanks everyone!
<mhall119> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Nov  6 17:59:34 2014 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-11-06-17.05.moin.txt
<Riddell> hola chicos!
<yofel> o/
<sgclark> hi
<shadeslayer> hey
<Riddell> who's here for a kubuntu-dev meeting to discuss sgclark membership?
<valorie> o/
<sgclark> me
<valorie> always lovely to see more kubuntu devels
<valorie> :-)
<shadeslayer> me me me
<debfx> o/
<Riddell> sgclark: what's your wiki page and tell us who you are
<Riddell> just incase we forgot
<sgclark> Hello https://wiki.ubuntu.com/sgclark/DeveloperApplication I am this crazy packaging lady that is extending her knowledge to learn every aspect of Kubuntu.
<Riddell> "I have been a packaging machine ever since" too right
<sgclark> hehe
<Riddell> sgclark: technical question do you know why my upload of kde-workspace failed today?
<Riddell> it compiled fine
<Riddell> but failed to get into the archive
<Riddell> this of course is after I uploaded plasma5 including systemsettings from plasma5
<Riddell> kde-workspace also having systemsettings from kde 4
<sgclark> well I have to look, I was busy with k3b. Give me a min
<Riddell> answer is still on launchpad indeed https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/kde-workspace/4:4.11.12-0ubuntu2/+build/6543457
 * Riddell invites others to give questions
<shadeslayer> I think it's better if we do it one question at a time
<shadeslayer> :P
<sgclark> Riddell: the debian version number was higher than what was in archive?
<yofel> not quite, *that* would've worked
<Riddell> it was lower
<shadeslayer> sgclark: this package hasn't migrated from proposed to release, https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/polarssl/1.3.9-1 , can you tell me why?
<Riddell> ooh that's a tricky one
<shadeslayer> ( I know it's not a KDE package, but that doesn't really matter :P )
<shadeslayer> Riddell: oh I have another one up my sleeve :P
<sgclark> Riddell: the package is missing the epoch?
 * stgraber takes some notes, good questions to re-use for some DMB applicants :)
<shadeslayer> oh stgraber's here too :D
<Riddell> sgclark: nope, it's cos the plasma5 systemsettings has a higher version number, so when I upload kde-workspace it also makes a systemsettings .deb but the lower version number means it can't go in the archive
 * Riddell struggling with shadeslayer's question
<shadeslayer> lol
<Riddell> sgclark: do you know where to look to look into shadeslayer's question?
<shadeslayer> I'm more than happy to provide a hint ;)
<sgclark> no I don't
<shadeslayer> sgclark: try http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/proposed-migration/update_excuses.html
<debfx> update_excuses is often not that helpful
<Riddell> not in this case it's not
<shadeslayer> right, but you need to figure out what to do after you land at that page :P
<shadeslayer> and when it gives you no information at all
<debfx> evil shadeslayer ^^
<Riddell> sgclark: just say if you don't know, we'll get an easier question
<Riddell> proposed migrations are the kind of fun you only deal with once you get upload privilages
<sgclark> I am sorry I don't knopw
<Riddell> shadeslayer: what's the answer?
<shadeslayer> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/proposed-migration/update_output.txt
<shadeslayer> makes packages uninstallable on i386
<shadeslayer> some recommended reading : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ProposedMigration
<shadeslayer> ( link at the top of the html page I linked earlier actually ;)
<sgclark> bookmarked
<shadeslayer> cool, lets move on :)
<Riddell> sgclark: as an archive admin I have to review any new source and again for any new binary packages in the archive, do you know what sort of thing I'd be looking out for and that I might reject from going into the archive?
<yofel> he does like tricky ones... You have to know where to look ^^
<sgclark> copyright mistakes, non distributable code, no newlines at last line
<Riddell> sgclark: yep here's an example, what's wrong with this? https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-archive/2014-November/048268.html
<Riddell> I'm not too fussy about "no newlines at last line" but the other two are important :)
<shadeslayer> oh you rejected sahara ? :D
<sgclark> Riddell: Jar are not distributable code
<sgclark> Riddell: source rather
<Riddell> yeah exactly
<Riddell> sgclark: you merged and updated k3b today, what steps did you go through to do that?
<shadeslayer> sgclark: this one might be tricky, might not be, lets see, we pass a few flags to cmake when building packages, where are those flags defined?
<sgclark> Riddell: first I ran grab-merge k3b, then I went through REPORT and made the necessary adjustments, then I went through every patch and made sure it was either a) applied upstream or if not I confirmed it was still needed.
<sgclark> shadeslayer: depends on the package, kde cone are in pkg-kde-tools I believe
<Riddell> sgclark: did you compile and test it actually ran?
<shadeslayer> sgclark: right, where in pkg-kde-tools ?
<sgclark> Riddell: k3b one was different as there was an upstream release, so I also had to go through normal packaging on top of merge, and yes of cource install and test to make sure it ran
<Riddell> sgclark: full marks :)
<yofel> sgclark: what are seeds?
<sgclark> shadeslayer: dhmk.mk?
<sgclark> yofel: Seeds are the lists of packages we want to include in the distribution
<shadeslayer> sgclark: there might be one or two in there, but the bulk of them are in a plain text file
<shadeslayer> datalib/kf5_flags in pkg-kde-tools :)
<sgclark> shadeslayer: ty, will research more on that
<shadeslayer> sgclark: so, we've found datalib/kf5_flags, now can you tell me what -DCMAKE_USE_RELATIVE_PATHS=ON does?
<apachelogger> (shadeslayer only knows that because he worte it, that's cheatin)
<yofel> sgclark: correct, do you know the difference between the desktop and the supported file?
<Riddell> shadeslayer: I don't think I know what that is!
<shadeslayer> Riddell: :O
<Riddell> is it rpaths?
<apachelogger> what is this a cmake quiz? :P
<shadeslayer> yeah but shhhhh
<sgclark> rpaths
<sgclark> heh
 * apachelogger waits for shadeslayer's follow up on that xD
<shadeslayer> Now I don't want to ask that :P
 * shadeslayer looks for more questions
<apachelogger> sgclark: what is an rpath? what does it do? do we like them?
<yofel> you could talk about dpkg's default gcc parameters :P
<sgclark> yofel: supported packages are available from the FTP site
<shadeslayer> xD
<sgclark> yofel: not on CD
 * shadeslayer pokes apachelogger to ask questions
<sgclark> apachelogger: NO we do like like rpath , it is against debain policy
<shadeslayer> oh you did, heh, missed that
<sgclark> apachelogger: https://wiki.debian.org/RpathIssue
<yofel> sgclark: not quite, but you're right that it's not on the CD - it's partly for marking packages as being maintained by us even if we do not ship them on the images (which will be relevant for you once you have upload rights) https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SeedManagement
<sgclark> apachelogger: no we do not rather..
 * Riddell doesn't care about rpaths but for some reason debian does
<sgclark> yofel: ok, thank you
<apachelogger> sgclark: What does debian/compat do and why do we need it?
<sgclark> apachelogger: compat sets the compatibility level and that mean the dh* rules in the rules file must match the compat level
<apachelogger> sgclark: does it perhaps have greater impact than just which dh_ scripts are called by rules?
<Riddell> apachelogger: I'm not sure I understand your question?
<sgclark> apachelogger: all I see is debhelper compatibilty sorry
<apachelogger> could it happen that a compatibility level is incorrect even though debian/rules only calls dh_ scripts available in that version of debhelper?
<apachelogger> ..., could the build behave incorrectly or break despite that
<sgclark> apachelogger: if the debhelper changed in some way yes it could break things
<apachelogger> ok
<debfx> sgclark: say you found a packaging bug in a package that has been synced from Debian. what do you do?
<sgclark> debfx: file a bug with debian?
<debfx> sounds good :)
<Riddell> any more questions?
 * sgclark wipes the sweat from her forehead
<shadeslayer> sgclark: what does debian/links do?
<yofel> sgclark: until which point of the development phase are you allowed to allow new upstream feature releases of a  package?
<sgclark> shadeslayer: calls dh_link to create symlink to system packages
<Riddell> oh I have one, sgclark: should catalunya be an independent state?  I need to work out what to vote on sunday
<yofel> s/allow/upload/
<shadeslayer> Riddell: the votes on Sunday? I thought it was on the 11th? :P
<sgclark> yofel: until feature freeze
<shadeslayer> no one's going to ask ABI questions?
<shadeslayer> pft
<Riddell> shadeslayer: 9N!  Volem Votar!
<apachelogger> I thought it was canceled because of illegal?
<yofel> good
<sgclark> Riddell: works for me
<shadeslayer> apachelogger: they keep changing what it's called
<apachelogger> smart
<yofel> shadeslayer: we're waiting for you to start them :P
<apachelogger> sgclark: what language ar debian/rules files written in?
<shadeslayer> sgclark: so, can you explain the process of what to do in case a ABI break happens? ( i.e. what constitutes a ABI break and how we proceed from there )
<Riddell> I think that's enough questions
<Riddell> let's have answers on them and then vote
<shadeslayer> yep
<apachelogger> mh
<apachelogger> abi is important
<yofel> ^
<sgclark> apachelogger: it is a Makefile, gosh I don't know, C?
<apachelogger> make :P
<yofel> sgclark: gnu make is titled an official language :P
<shadeslayer> xD
<apachelogger> therefore you should read the make manual, and then tell shadeslayer all about it because that lazy bum didn't read it
<shadeslayer> pft
<shadeslayer> I'm ruby'ing
<yofel> xD
<shadeslayer> you can't complain
<sgclark> shadeslayer: ABI break is when a symbol is removed and the SONAME version needs to be bumped because dependant packages will break if they try to use the function
<shadeslayer> also, it's a freaking 1000 page manual with features that I'll probably never end up using
<shadeslayer> sgclark: cool, sub question, what's X-Debian-ABI :D
<sgclark> shadeslayer: When there is a #MISSING I use c++filt to get a human readable class etc and look it up on the API
<debfx> you could just call ruby rules.rb from the makefile ;)
<sgclark> shadeslayer: If it is private I can delete
<shadeslayer> debfx++
<apachelogger> sgclark: when is it private?
<sgclark> shadeslayer: If it is public, I look up the code and spam emails to thye dev and everyone else I think that can help me to see if it needs a bump
<sgclark> apachelogger: private, as in no one access it but internal
<apachelogger> how can you tell?
 * shadeslayer would answer apachelogger's question with "When it's not public"
<yofel> #define private public :P
 * apachelogger looks up end question
<sgclark> shadeslayer: should I ever come across an ABI break I would use the bookmarked instructions on X-Debian-ABI
<sgclark> and of course spam everyone again for help
<yofel> sgclark: now, you already had it to some extent with PPA's, but how do you feel about having root access on essentially all kubuntu user systems?
<sgclark> scared and careful
<sgclark> yofel: ^
<yofel> good ;)
<shadeslayer> apachelogger: what happened to the classic everyones-drunk-before-release-day question
<apachelogger> sgclark: Imagine, if you will... upstream releases new versions of Phonon, Phonon-GStreamer and Phonon-VLC two weeks before our release. Upstream urges us to include it in the release regardless as a considerable amount of high impact bugs were fixed. Unfortunately an equal amount of features was also added. All other Kubuntu developers are on vacation^Wmeeting in Brussels and unreachable because Belgium has terrible connectivity. You are the
<apachelogger>  only one who could either push for the new Phonons to be uploaded to the archive or postpone to updates/backports. What do you do? Why do you do it? How do you defend your decision to apachelogger who is known to respond rather badly to any reasoning that conflicts with his opinion?
<shadeslayer> hah
<shadeslayer> there we go
<apachelogger> shadeslayer: there it is u drunk lazy bum :P
<yofel> we were all waiting for it :P
<sgclark> apachelogger: I would file an Ffe and they would have to go through normals channels to be approved. If they do great, if not I would tell upstream sorry I tried
<Riddell> lovely, let's vote!
<apachelogger> sgclark: how would you asses whether it is even good enough for ffe?
<Riddell> I'm +1 for being an awesome dev who knows her limits but wants to expand them
<sgclark> apachelogger: go through the upstream changelogs and look for severe bug fixes to start. (How I would try to convince the ubuntu-release)
<apachelogger> sgclark: how do you know the new releases are not eating kittens?
 * ogra_ notes that Riddell and himself never had to go though such a hard questionnaire to reach core-dev ... 
<sgclark> apachelogger: I test them for kitten friendlyness
<Riddell> ogra_: yeah but I was told to only upload packages starting with a k, some day I should apply for full core-dev :)
<apachelogger> sgclark: maybe someone else would help you with that ;)
<apachelogger> I am satisfied though.
<ogra_> (and that sgclark seriously deverves upload rights based on the sheer amount of -changes ML spam she produces in my mailbox ;)
<Riddell> yofel, shadeslayer, apachelogger, debfx etc vote!
<ogra_> *deserves
<Riddell> volem votar!
<apachelogger> (FWIW, answering with apachelogger is upstream and if he has a problem he can take it up with himself would have been the answer whith which sgclark could have won the internet)
<Riddell> they may be sending in the tanks but the Madrid government will not stop us voting!
<shadeslayer> ogra_: is core-dev still open for applications?
<yofel> +1 for continuous and competent contributions, and not being scared to ask questions if she doesn't know something
<Riddell> 05:05 <ScottK> Turns out I'll miss the meeting tomorrow.  I'm +1 on sgclark.
<ogra_> shadeslayer, no idea, i gave up my last DMB job 2 years ago ...
<Riddell> shadeslayer: yes, when are you applying?
<shadeslayer> +1 for being overall awesome ( happy that ABI knowledge is over all complete :D)
<shadeslayer> Riddell: thinking about it
<debfx> +1 from me as well
<Riddell> shadeslayer: then sgclark can quiz you on your understanding of update_excuses
<yofel> indeed, britney is lovely
<shadeslayer> I'm more scared of apachelogger
<yofel> talk about ben while you're at it :P
<shadeslayer> he's quite the meanie
 * sgclark awaits apacheloggers vote
<apachelogger> scared of me what?
<yofel> apachelogger: ? ^^
<yofel> you throwing kittens at people?
<apachelogger> +1 or something
<yofel> \o/
<Riddell> awooga!
<sgclark> yay
<apachelogger> (busy in other channels), congrats and stuff
<yofel> I think that'll all of the presend people
<shadeslayer> yay
<yofel> *present
 * Riddell hugs sgclark and welcomes her into kubuntu-dev
<sgclark> yay, thanks everyone. That was a scary start
<Riddell> sgclark: now we have lots of kde applications to package, thanks for going through the grilling
<shadeslayer> heh, yeah I'm pretty sure you'll have to deal with proposed-migration soon enough now :P
<shadeslayer> but hey, you'll know where to look ;)
<sgclark> shadeslayer: yes, get ready for questions lol
<Riddell> sgclark: and remember to look for the next way for personal development. motu? core-dev? release-team? backports team? sru team? all need help
<Riddell> but of course you're also doing SoK and other stuff so make sure you don't get burnt out
<sgclark> Riddell: ok, probably should finish SoK first :)
<valorie> weeeee, welcome to your new status, sgclark
<sgclark> thanks!
#ubuntu-meeting 2014-11-07
 * jasonjang is away: away
 * jasonjang is back (gone 00:04:44)
<dupingping> Hi everything
<dupingping> I hope become a member of Ubuntu.
<Mikaela> dupingping: this is probably a little wrong channel, but https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership has instructions
<Mikaela> or actually https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/NewMember
<jsears>  /msg nickserv set password
#ubuntu-meeting 2015-11-03
<matsubara> #startmeeting ubuntu-server-team
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Nov  3 16:00:25 2015 UTC.  The chair is matsubara. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:
<matsubara> Hi there, welcome to this week's Server Team meeting!
<matsubara> who's around today?
<thedac> o/
<arosales> o/
<teward> i'm alive but don't have anything to really add just yet :P
<matsubara> FWIW, I'm leading today in place of hallyn
<teward> (I lurk these usually)
<arosales> thanks for covering my chair while I was out
<matsubara> #topic Review ACTION points from previous meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<matsubara> I don't think there are any action points from the previous meeting. IIRC last week one was cancelled due to ODS
<matsubara> so let's move on
<matsubara> #topic Xenial Development
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Xenial Development
<matsubara> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/XenialXerus/ReleaseSchedule
<matsubara> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/XenialXerus/ReleaseSchedule
<matsubara> #subtopic Release Bugs
<matsubara> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-x-tracking-bug-tasks.html#ubuntu-server
<matsubara> not sure if that URL is working at all
<matsubara> I'm updating the links on the fly as those are not up to date at the wiki page
<teward> looks fine to me
<teward> 3 bugs on that tracker according to what i see
<teward> (that are ubuntu-server marked(
<teward> (oops lag, i meant the URL not working issue)
<matsubara> yep
<matsubara> the critical one is already assigned, the high one is in progress
<matsubara> and there's medium lxc one
<matsubara> which is part of the work done due to another critical lxc bug discovered just after the release
<matsubara> so I think that's all covered and people are aware of what needs to be done.
<matsubara> moving on
<matsubara> #topic Assigned bugwork (rbasak)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Assigned bugwork (rbasak)
<matsubara> rbasak, around?
<matsubara> ok, I'll take that as no, so moving on
<matsubara> #topic Server & Cloud Bugs (caribou)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Server & Cloud Bugs (caribou)
<matsubara> caribou is not around either, so let's move on. We can come back later on
<matsubara> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (matsubara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (matsubara)
<matsubara> I don't have any updates
<matsubara> unless there are any questions, I'll move on
<matsubara> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee, arges)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee, arges)
<arges> matsubara: no updates from the kernel team! thanks
<matsubara> thanks arges!
<matsubara> #topic Upcoming Call For Papers
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Upcoming Call For Papers
<matsubara> I don't think there's any
<matsubara> #topic Ubuntu Server Team Events
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Ubuntu Server Team Events
<matsubara> UOS is happening, so checkout the schedule for server & cloud related things: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uos-1511/
<matsubara> #topic Open Discussion
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Open Discussion
<matsubara> anything?
<matsubara> 3
<matsubara> 2
<teward> nginx 1.9.6 will be merged as soon as I get off my lazy butt.  Introduces http2, so many will be happy to see that.
<teward> that's all :)
<matsubara> oh, thanks for the update teward!
<teward> yup
<matsubara> #topic Announce next meeting date, time and chair
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Announce next meeting date, time and chair
<matsubara> same date and time next week and the chair will be hallyn
<matsubara> and I guess that's all
<matsubara> thanks everyone!
<matsubara> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Nov  3 16:16:58 2015 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2015/ubuntu-meeting.2015-11-03-16.00.moin.txt
#ubuntu-meeting 2015-11-05
<chronologic> Mikaela: hi
<ahoneybun> hola everyone
 * sethj waves
<Kilos> hi sethj
<geomint> hello
<wxl> hai sethj
<toddy> hi sethj
<ahoneybun> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Nov  5 22:02:55 2015 UTC.  The chair is ahoneybun. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<sethj> hey guys :)
<ahoneybun> #startmeeting 22 UTC Membership Board Meeting
<meetingology> ahoneybun: Error: Can't start another meeting, one is in progress.
<ahoneybun> opps
<Kilos> uh oh
<elacheche_anis> :)
<pleia2> #endmeeting
<elacheche_anis> ahoneybun: end the 2st one, then re-start it the good way
<pleia2> hm, I don't seem to have access
<elacheche_anis> thx pleia2 :)
<ahoneybun> #startmeeting 22 UTC Membership Board Meeting
<meetingology> ahoneybun: Error: Can't start another meeting, one is in progress.
<elacheche_anis> ahoneybun: execute #endmeeting first :)
<ahoneybun> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Nov  5 22:04:12 2015 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2015/ubuntu-meeting.2015-11-05-22.02.moin.txt
<wxl> ahoneybun: do #endmeeting first
<wxl> there we go
<ahoneybun> #startmeeting 22 UTC Membership Board Meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Nov  5 22:04:16 2015 UTC.  The chair is ahoneybun. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | 22 UTC Membership Board Meeting | Current topic:
<ahoneybun> #topic Seth Johnson
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | 22 UTC Membership Board Meeting | Current topic: Seth Johnson
<ahoneybun> Hello and welcome to the Membership Board meeting!
<sethj> I don't get to wear my sword? awwww
<Kilos> haha
 * george_e puts down his sword too
<ahoneybun> The wiki page for the Review Board is available here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/Boards. We will attempt to get through all of the applicants that have added themselves to that list before today's meeting.
<ahoneybun> If we are unable to make it through the entire list due to time constraints, then at the next meeting we will pick up where we left off. The format for the meeting is as follows: We will go through the list of applicants one by one, by date of application (FIFO).
<ahoneybun> Each applicant should introduce themselves (1-5 sentences) and provide links to their Ubuntu Wiki page. After the introduction the members of the Membership Review Board will review the pages and, if needed, ask the applicant further questions.
<ahoneybun> During this time it is encouraged for other members of the community to show their support for the applicant. Do not be alarmed if the members of the Membership Review Board are quiet during this time; they are most likely reading wiki/launchpad/forum/other pages and deciding how they are going to vote.
<ahoneybun> wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/sethj
<ahoneybun> LP: https://launchpad.net/~sethj
<ahoneybun> Seth: please introduce yourself to the board
<sethj> Hi, I'm Seth. I've been using Ubuntu since 11.04, although I had a live CD of 9.10 that I used for occasional tinkering before that.
<sethj> My first introduction to the Ubuntu community was Ask Ubuntu, which I joined in early 2012, just before 12.04 iirc. In 2014 I was elected as an AU moderator.
<sethj> Over time my work on Ask Ubuntu introduced me to the wider aspects of the community, how it worked, how it was organized, and how I could contribute. Since then I've done a little of (almost) everything: bug work, Q/A, a little dev work, some packaging, and (obviously) support.
<sethj> and that has cumulated (so far) in this meeting :)
<ahoneybun> super cool :)
<Kilos> nice work sethj
<ahoneybun> Any questions for Seth? Any supporters here?
<toddy> sethj: which of your Ubuntu work do you love most and why?
<george_e> I am here for Seth.
<george_e> I am also supposed to give a shout out from jokerdino who couldn't make it here.
<ahoneybun> awesome thanks george_e
<sethj> toddy, ouch! Hard question. I was thinking about that before the meeting and I couldn't come to any conclusion. I love it all!
<toddy> sethj: fine
<elacheche_anis> that's good thing sethj
<sethj> I guess my work on AU is what I enjoy most. I lets me interact with awesome people every day.
 * ahoneybun is a bit biased to LoCo
<sethj> most (barely)*
<sethj> Most of the other stuff I have done has been a little more on the loner side. Not quite so much interaction.
<ahoneybun> #voters Kilos elacheche_anis toddy ahoneybun wxl cwayne popey hggdh
<meetingology> Warning: Nick not in channel: cwayne
<meetingology> Current voters: Kilos ahoneybun cwayne elacheche_anis hggdh popey toddy wxl
<ahoneybun> ok
<Kilos> yip
<ahoneybun> #votesrequired 4
<meetingology> votes now need 4 to be passed
<ahoneybun> #vote for Seth's membership now!
<meetingology> Please vote on: for Seth's membership now!
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<elacheche_anis> OK.. No more questions? Can we vote?
<ahoneybun> here we go people
<popey> uh
<popey> sorry, only just got here since the ping just now
<wxl> oops disappeared sorry
<popey> hello sethj
<sethj> hi popey!
<wxl> i am certainly ready to vote
<teward> crap i'm late, am I too late to say sethj is a wonderful asset to the community? :P
<ahoneybun> nope
<ahoneybun> :)
<george_e> teward, I don't think so.
<Kilos> too late
<Kilos> haha
<ahoneybun> I mean there is no timer on this
<ahoneybun> so questions could be asked no?
<Kilos> im happy
<toddy> I am ready to vote
<elacheche_anis> I'm ready to vote too :)
<sethj> thanks teward, george_e :)
<ahoneybun> popey: or wxl want to ask anything since I messed up?
<popey> just reading up about sethj, sorry.
<elacheche_anis> tyt popey we wait :)
<wxl> sethj: i did want to offer my assistance with testing, bug management, and locos. so get in touch later on!
<popey> Was looking at launchpad.. saw a few bug comments on the bug scrub, thanks for getting involved in that sethj !
<sethj> wxl, That'd be awesome!
<popey> Then I clicked your askubuntu page. No brainer, you're exactly our kind of person!
<popey> I have no questions :)
<teward> well then let me put my two cents in then about sethj.  Seth is a great asset to the community, and strives to help all types of users, technical or newbies, with support and information and knowledge.  He's been putting feelers out into the bug world for some time, asking questions and such if he's unsure, but I think he's a wonderful asset to the community.  I fully support him, as a community member, in his hunt for membership status.  :)
<teward> (I never had a chance to edit his wiki for that testimonial, my apologies to the membership board)
<wxl> sethj: i'm head of qa for lubuntu and on the loco-council so i have a bit of experience ;) feel free to email me or find me somewhere on irc and we can have a chat/pm
<Kilos> np teward
<popey> ahoneybun, so nothing from me.
<popey> Lovely testimonial from oli there
<elacheche_anis> teward: Thank you for the tetimonial :)
<ahoneybun> +1 I'm going to vote up for sure, I look forward to discussing LoCo and maybe Ubuntu Touch stuff later
<meetingology> +1 I'm going to vote up for sure, I look forward to discussing LoCo and maybe Ubuntu Touch stuff later received from ahoneybun
<sethj> popey, np! The bug scrub was a great way for me to get a feel for how bug works.. err, works ;)
<toddy> +1 - you make a lot of good work. stay on it! be a part of Ubuntu!
<meetingology> +1 - you make a lot of good work. stay on it! be a part of Ubuntu! received from toddy
<elacheche_anis> +1 Keep the good work sethj :)
<meetingology> +1 Keep the good work sethj :) received from elacheche_anis
<wxl> +1 great work so far and happy to see you excited to add more to the list of things to do!
<meetingology> +1 great work so far and happy to see you excited to add more to the list of things to do! received from wxl
<Kilos> +1 keep it up
<meetingology> +1 keep it up received from Kilos
<popey> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from popey
<popey> That was easy.
<ahoneybun> is that everyone?
<elacheche_anis> think so..
<popey> It's certainly enough to carry it :)
<ahoneybun> good time to end elacheche_anis?
<elacheche_anis> yep :)
<geomint> +1
<ahoneybun> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: for Seth's membership now!
<meetingology> Votes for:6 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<elacheche_anis> geomint: you can't vote :) :p
<ahoneybun> super!
 * popey added sethj to ~ubuntumembers. Welcome to the club sethj, keep up the great work
<geomint> it's ok :)
<teward> I'd vote if I could but i already sad +1 :)
<elacheche_anis> Congrats sethj :) :) :)
<Kilos> welcome to the team sethj
<george_e> \o/
<ahoneybun> welcome on board sethj
<elacheche_anis> thank you popey for doing that :)
<popey> np
<Kilos> keep it up
<toddy> Congrats, sethj
<geomint> congrats sethj
<sethj> \o/
<popey> we usually forget :)
<sethj> thanks guys!
<wxl> congrats sethj !
<ahoneybun> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Nov  5 22:20:33 2015 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2015/ubuntu-meeting.2015-11-05-22.04.moin.txt
 * popey goes back to sleep ;)
<popey> thanks everyone!
<ahoneybun> yay
<wxl> sethj: if you have any help setting up your email forwarder or anything, feel free to ping me
<Kilos> ty ahoneybun
<sethj> will do wxl :)
<ahoneybun> thanks for the understanding Kilos and elacheche_anis
 * ahoneybun grabs a beer
<Kilos> well done ahoneybun
<wxl> k i'm disappearing. see you later guys and thank you!
<teward> And my apologies to the membership board again for not being diligent on giving my testimonial on Seth's wiki page
 * Kilos grabs my pillow
<teward> (thought I'd stop by last second and throw it into the mix here since I was too busy before)
<Kilos> np teward
<Kilos> support here is just as good
<ahoneybun> next time it will be better Kilos
<popey> its always nice to have people drop by and support
<Kilos> was a great first time
<elacheche_anis> Thank you for charing ahoneybun :)
<ahoneybun> elacheche_anis: caring?
<Kilos> chairing
<Kilos> sitting in the hot seat
<ahoneybun> XD
<Kilos> hehe
<Kilos> night guys, have a good day
<elacheche_anis> It's late here too.. GTG..
<geomint> goodnight :)
#ubuntu-meeting 2016-11-07
<legreffier> thanks a lot :)
<micahg> !dmb-ping
<ubottu> bdmurray, BenC, cyphermox, infinity, micahg, rbasak, sil2100: DMB ping.
<cyphermox> o/
<rbasak> o/
<bdmurray> mostly here, wasn't sure about TZ change
<bdmurray> just need a moment to finish something
 * bdmurray is ready
<bdmurray> slashd: I don't see any endorsements in your application.
<cyphermox> bdmurray: I can +1 slashd's work.
<bdmurray> maybe caribou has an opinion too
<cyphermox> in my opinion, the packages I've sponsored and other updates I've seen were high quality, and showed a good attention to detail and general willingness to ask questions when usure of what to do; just what I'd expect from someone wanting to get MOTU.
<rbasak> That would still only be one endorsement though, and additionally I feel that endorsements should be written up.
<bdmurray> cyphermox: can you put that in the historical document then?
<cyphermox> we've very often accepted live endorsements without any issues.
<rbasak> We have?
<cyphermox> bdmurray: It's now in a historical document (the IRC logs), but I'll update the wiki page later
<bdmurray> I've seen it happen but usaully when there are more than 0 endorsements in the application.
<cyphermox> rbasak: AFAIK there's prior art
<cyphermox> there's no denying that more endorsements would be welcome.
<bdmurray> Maybe we should try meeting again in 45 minutes?
<rbasak> Well, I'm opposed to that. We've also -1'd people due to "no endorsements". I feel that we should be consistent.
<rbasak> slashd also has had a number of different sponsors according to the miner. I'd expect a selection of those to ensorse.
<rbasak> endorse.
<rbasak> If people aren't endorsing, then there might be good reason. Thus I feel that it's not too much to ask to get endorsements.
<cyphermox> rbasak: what are you opposed to?
<rbasak> I'm basically a -1 to applications without appropriate corresponding endorsements. Thus I'm opposed to proceeding with "live endorsements".
<rbasak> We can proceed if you want, but I'd prefer to postpone. For my vote at least, it's a waste of slashd's time.
<bdmurray> "A typical application will have three to five endorsements." from the Application Process wiki page
<bdmurray> Anyway, given the low turn out maybe we should try again in 40 minutes?
<micahg> I agree live endorsements can be good if questions come up about something, but in terms of the application, we usually let people know in advance that they should reschedule for after they've got the endorsements and I'm sorry that I didn't notice that before
<rbasak> FTR, I appreciate that sometimes it's difficult if for example each sponsor has only sponsored one upload. But I think it's appropriate for them to say that in endorsements and then the DMB can consider them in aggregate.
<slashd> rbasak, I ask for endorsement, but ppl tend to forget unfortunately or do not have time, I had a a few on previous application, if that could be still use
<rbasak> Unfortunately endorsements are tied to what application you are being endorsed for. Endorsers may be happy with someone being a contributing developer but don't think that person is yet appropriate for core dev, for example.
<slashd> rbasak, sure make sense
<rbasak> Can you chase your potential endorsers? If you make it clear that this is blocking your application, then perhaps they'll do it.
<slashd> rbasak, sure will do
<rbasak> Personally, my main goal here is to make sure that the problem isn't that people aren't endorsing because they're actually a -1. I have no reason to believe that this is happening in your case, but I believe it has happened in the past with other applicants.
<slashd> rbasak, yep I understand the situation, will re-apply later, how many endorsements is needed ?
<rbasak> There isn't a fixed number, but see bdmurray's comment above.
<slashd> rbasak, ok 3 to 5 I see it now
<cyphermox> rbasak: clearly you haven't had to chase after people to write stuff to the wiki; it's often just a matter of being busy.
<rbasak> If the endorsements are small (eg. "I sponsored one minor debdiff") then I'd expect more. Or for "I did major project X with this applicant" then fewer would be fine.
<bdmurray> Do endorsers know our expections?  A tweet is fine, it doesn't need to be a short story.
<rbasak> cyphermox: sure, it more often is just that. But I feel that we need some basis and to not just guess.
<cyphermox> of course
<cyphermox> what I'm saying is that three different people chiming up on IRC would be fine by me, it doesn't *have to* be endorsements on the wiki
<rbasak> I do in part consider who the endorser is. They tend to have different standards, and I think we're probably all aware of this.
<cyphermox> I think the expectations are clear in terms of what constitutes an endorsement.
<cyphermox> yep
<cyphermox> so, let's ajourn rather than keep beating this dead horse?
<micahg> well, there's a difference, writing it on the wiki will usually involve some verification that it's deserved as many people will write about specific interactions, whereas IRC endorsements are usually based more on gut feeling IMHO
<cyphermox> micahg: why?
<cyphermox> my endorsement is no gut feeling, I've reviewed uploads for slashd.
<micahg> human nature?
<micahg> I'm not speaking about you specifically
<cyphermox> sure, but writing about people generally seems like an unwarranted generalization
<cyphermox> ie. the medium used has no bearing on the validity of the message.
<cyphermox> an endorsement on IRC may be more conducive to further questions to the endorser as well.
<rbasak> I would still prefer that all endorsements be on the wiki. I don't want DMB approvals to become a "friends only" club, and the way to avoid that is openness and consistency. Future applicants can very easily look through the devel-permissions archives and look at previous applications to gauge their own chance of success. Having other stuff out-of-band hides reasons for decisions and makes things
<rbasak> look less impartial.
<cyphermox> this isn't out of band though. all the meetings *are* logged.
<rbasak> Participation in the application meeting itself is fine though.
<rbasak> If in the actual application meeting, yes. That's a place where people would expect to look. But discussions in other channels or at other times will end up being effectively hidden.
<cyphermox> I'm not expecting to see endorsements anywhere but here and in the wiki
<rbasak> Ah, OK>
<cyphermox> or maybe the mailing list.
<rbasak> .
<rbasak> Agreed.
<cyphermox> anything else is indeed rather undiscoverable.
<rbasak> Though it would still be useful to have endorsements in the wiki in advance. Endorsers supporting the application at the IRC meeting is useful too.
<cyphermox> backchannel should be left to just those cases where you need to express concerns , for instance.
<cyphermox> slashd: so, please come back in two weeks or so with more endorsements? I'll update your wiki page in a bit with mine.
<slashd> cyphermox, sure tks
<slashd> tks rbasak will re-apply in few weeks, I sent another email to my potential endorsers saying it is a stopper for my application, tks
<rbasak> slashd: thanks! Do you want to update https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperMembershipBoard/Agenda to make sure you have a slot at the next meeting?
<slashd> rbasak, will wait to get all the required endorsement before re-adding myself of the agenda
<rbasak> slashd: I suggest you re-add yourself anyway. You can always remove it if needed. But you've already been delayed - we don't want to find that you can't get a slot if we get a bunch of other applicants at once.
<slashd> rbasak ok
<sil2100> Sorry for being late, daylight savings here in the EU made things a bit confusing
<slashd> rbasak, I'll be travelling on nov 21st back home from a sprint, so I'll have to re-apply in december
<rbasak> OK
#ubuntu-meeting 2016-11-08
<cpaelzer> o/
<powersj> o/
<tinoco> o/
<jgrimm> o/
<caribou> \o
<jgrimm> beisner, able to chair irc meeting today?
<rbasak> o/
<teward> *coughs*
<jgrimm> i'll chair in absence
<jgrimm> #startmeeting ubuntu-server-team
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Nov  8 16:04:20 2016 UTC.  The chair is jgrimm. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:
<nacc> o/
<jgrimm> hi folks, sorry for slow start
<jgrimm> #topic Review ACTION points from previous meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<jgrimm> (jamespage) checkin with old iscsitarget users on relevancy with new kernels
<jgrimm> jamespage, around ^^
<jgrimm> seems not, i'll take action to follow-up in email, this has sat around in actions for a long while
<nacc> jgrimm: thanks
<jgrimm> #action jgrimm: send jamespage email about iscsitarget
<meetingology> ACTION: jgrimm: send jamespage email about iscsitarget
<jgrimm> that looks to be only thing from last week
<jgrimm> #topic Zesty Development
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Zesty Development
<jgrimm> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ZestyZapus/ReleaseSchedule
<jgrimm> anyone want to discuss something wrt Zesty?
<teward> *raises hand* I broke nginx for a short while in Zesty two weeks ago... fixed now, but we can thank Debian's security fix patch and a small mistake on my part for that.
<teward> there's going to be an nginx merge I'd like some spot checking on and testing when I finish prepping it, i'll send a mail to the list for the call for testing
<jgrimm> cool, thanks for being on top of that teward
<teward> yep
<jgrimm> i know cpaelzer is working through gnarly strongswan merge..
<cpaelzer> yeah and dovecot just donw
<rbasak> I'm still trying to land mysql-5.7 5.7.16.
<jgrimm> #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-z-server-core
<powersj> jgrimm: from last week we should email server list re: powerpc + debian
<jgrimm> powersj, thanks for the reminder
<jgrimm> so what powersj is is referring to is that debian is dropping powerpc arch
<jgrimm> so i'm planning to send an email to ubuntu mls on the future (or possibly lack of) future for that arch in  ubuntu
<jgrimm> #action jgrimm: email ubuntu dev mailing lists about powerpc arch
<meetingology> ACTION: jgrimm: email ubuntu dev mailing lists about powerpc arch
<jgrimm> if you have capacity to help with merges feel free to sign yourself up in the blueprint; but i'll probably do some active recruitment shortly too
<jgrimm> nacc, i have general agreement from maas team with python-django moving forward
<nacc> jgrimm: great
<nacc> importer changes are almost done, working on `usd ` today and I will pivot to merges
<jgrimm> i talked to that team last week and they asked that we do it early in cycle if possible
<nacc> ack
<jgrimm> nacc, cool. thanks
<nacc> i'll sync with them before upload
<jgrimm> thanks, you may also want to check with the debian openstack folks, looks like they are planning an even newer django soon.
<nacc> ack
<jgrimm> found the bug
<jgrimm> #link https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/python-django/+bug/1605278
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1605278 in MAAS "Merge python-django 1:1.9.8-1 (main) from Debian unstable (main)" [Wishlist,Triaged]
<jgrimm> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/python-django/+bug/1605278/comments/10
<jgrimm> ok, anything else zesty related?
<jgrimm> #subtopic Release Bugs
<jgrimm> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-y-tracking-bug-tasks.html#ubuntu-server
<powersj> fyi for those doing triage, if you haven't noticed each of us has an assigned day Tuesday-Friday and rotate Monday now.
<jgrimm> we should switch that to z now. :)
<jgrimm> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-z-tracking-bug-tasks.html#ubuntu-server
<jgrimm> thanks powersj
<jgrimm> ok, nothing critical in the z-tracking report
<jgrimm> moving on
<jgrimm> #topic Server & Cloud Bugs & SRU/Pending Uploads (caribou)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Server & Cloud Bugs & SRU/Pending Uploads (caribou)
<caribou> Active SRU list :
<caribou> LP: #1626258 [SRU] AttributeError: 'Requirement' object has no attribute 'project_name'
<caribou>  - Uploaded to Z; X & Y to follow
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1626258 in python-pip (Ubuntu Yakkety) "[SRU] AttributeError: 'Requirement' object has no attribute 'project_name'" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1626258
<caribou> LP: #1584485 Upgrading samba to latest security fixes together with winbind in nsswitch.conf can harm entire OS
<caribou>  - Uploaded to Z, X & Y to follow
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1584485 in samba (Ubuntu Yakkety) "Upgrading samba to latest security fixes together with winbind in nsswitch.conf can harm entire OS" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1584485
<caribou> LP: #1447715 dhclient -6: Can't bind to dhcp address: Cannot assign requested address
<caribou>  - Need to be uploaded to Xenial
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1447715 in ifupdown (Ubuntu Xenial) "dhclient -6: Can't bind to dhcp address: Cannot assign requested address" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1447715
<caribou> other : makedumpfile is finally fixed for kernel 4.8 & uploaded to Z
<caribou> SRU for Y & X to follow
<caribou> (done)
<jgrimm> thanks caribou
<jgrimm> any questions?
<jgrimm> any other SRU work in progress that folks should highlight?
<jgrimm> cpaelzer, ^^
<jgrimm> dovecot?
<tinoco> jgrimm: im fixing qemu+libvirt live migration
<tinoco> jgrimm: live migration is broken using mitaka cloud-archives and trusty kernel
<tinoco> thats worth to mention (apparmor blocks live migration)
<cpaelzer> dovecot had a crash on huge mails filtering that I'm working on
<jgrimm> tinoco, do you have a link for us?
<cpaelzer> tinoco: thanks - for your work on this - so this is kernel dependent then?
<tinoco> upstrema: https://bugs.launchpad.net/qemu/+bug/1626972
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1626972 in QEMU "QEMU memfd_create fallback mechanism change for security drivers" [Undecided,In progress]
<tinoco> ours: https://bugs.launchpad.net/nova/+bug/1613423
<ubottu> Error: launchpad bug 1613423 not found
<tinoco> (its a security fix, its closed)
<cpaelzer> tinoco: once you have a proposed upload e.g. in a ppa please let me know, I have some extra tests I'd liek to run over with -or-for-you
<tinoco> cpaelzer: definitely.
<jgrimm> cpaelzer, tinoco: thanks. yes please work together
<jgrimm> another in progress bug worth mentioning:
<jgrimm> #link https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/klibc/+bug/1621507
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1621507 in open-iscsi (Ubuntu Yakkety) "initramfs-tools configure_networking() fails to dhcp ipv6 addresses" [High,In progress]
<jgrimm> just for awareness or if anyone else wants to join in the review
<jgrimm> ok, that's all I can think of off top of my head atm
<jgrimm> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (powersj)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (powersj)
<powersj> Back from sprint. Started running automated zesty ISO tests with positive results and made a few Jenkinks changes to QEMU/live migration (thanks cpaelzer).
<powersj> Short week with Friday being holiday, gotta chatch up on cloud-init integration. /done
<jgrimm> thanks powersj
<jgrimm> oops forgot the CI link
<jgrimm> #link https://jenkins.ubuntu.com/server/
<jgrimm> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee)
<jgrimm> any  kernel folks around?
<jgrimm> ok, moving on
<jgrimm> #topic Upcoming Call For Papers
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Upcoming Call For Papers
<jgrimm> #link https://lwn.net/Calendar/Monthly/cfp/
<jgrimm> not seeing anything interesting
<jgrimm> #topic Ubuntu Server Team Events
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Ubuntu Server Team Events
<jgrimm> Plumbers and ODS happened in last couple weeks. I haven't caught up on trip reports or articles yet
<jgrimm> anyone have anything to bring up?
<jgrimm> #topic Open Discussion
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Open Discussion
<jgrimm> I took a TODO to get a formal SRU exception for cloud-init processed.  We've been behaving as such without having anything really formal in place with conditions/testing needed.
<jgrimm> really something we should have had in place long ago, so time to clean this up as well help with SRU team processing
<jgrimm> that's all i have.  anyone else?
<jgrimm> #topic Announce next meeting date, time and chair
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Announce next meeting date, time and chair
<nacc> jgrimm: that sounds commendable :)
<jgrimm> :)
<jgrimm> same place and time next week.   beisner still up as chair
<tinoco> o/
<jgrimm> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Nov  8 16:39:00 2016 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2016/ubuntu-meeting.2016-11-08-16.04.moin.txt
<caribou> thanks!
<jgrimm> thanks all!
<nacc> jgrimm: thanks
<powersj> thanks!
<nearffxx> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Nov  8 17:06:53 2016 UTC.  The chair is nearffxx. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<nearffxx> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Nov  8 17:07:25 2016 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2016/ubuntu-meeting.2016-11-08-17.06.moin.txt
#ubuntu-meeting 2016-11-10
<pitti> o/
<caribou> \o
<tdaitx> o/
<barry> \o
<robru> o~
 * slangasek waves
 * infinity grunts
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Nov 10 16:02:31 2016 UTC.  The chair is slangasek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Lightning round
<slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e barry doko bdmurray slangasek caribou infinity sil2100 robru cyphermox pitti tdaitx xnox chiluk mwhudson)
<slangasek> bdmurray mwhudson sil2100 pitti xnox infinity chiluk barry caribou cyphermox doko robru slangasek tdaitx
<bdmurray> setup daisy to only accept vivid armhf crashes
<bdmurray> updated errors code to display 17.04 / zesty
<bdmurray> confirmed retracers are not still OOM'ing on _search_contents
<bdmurray> discovered we are receiving a lot more core files so asked for more retracers
<bdmurray> submitted apport merge proposal regarding zgrep fallback
<bdmurray> research into apport memory utilization
<bdmurray> investigated and uploaded fixes for X,Y,Z for unattended-upgrades bug 1590321
<ubottu> bug 1590321 in unattended-upgrades (Ubuntu Yakkety) "/usr/bin/unattended-upgrade:FileNotFoundError:/usr/bin/unattended-upgrade@1468:main:get_dpkg_log_content" [Undecided,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1590321
<bdmurray> submitted PR for unattended-upgrades bug 1590321, 1624641
<ubottu> bug 1624641 in unattended-upgrades (Ubuntu Yakkety) "security updates with a new dependency don't get installed" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1624641
<bdmurray> discovered, researched and fixed unattended-upgrades bug 1639977
<bdmurray> investigation into u-r-u bug LP: #1633545
<bdmurray> investigation into LP: #1604160
<ubottu> bug 1639977 in unattended-upgrades (Ubuntu Yakkety) "/usr/bin/unattended-upgrade:FileNotFoundError:/usr/bin/unattended-upgrade@1468:main:write_stamp_file" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1639977
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1633545 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu) "PermissionError on upgrading from 16.04 to 16.10" [Critical,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1633545
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1614576 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu Xenial) "duplicate for #1604160 Upgrade from xenial to yakkety fails due to a UnicodeDecodeError" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1614576
<bdmurray> created a test case for T -> X version of LP: #1614576
<bdmurray> investigation into update-notifier bug LP: 1640318
<bdmurray> out tomorrow for a US Holiday
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1614576 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu Xenial) "Upgrade from xenial to yakkety fails due to a UnicodeDecodeError" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1614576
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1640318 in update-notifier (Ubuntu) "/usr/lib/update-notifier/package-data-downloader:OSError:process_download_requests:/usr/lib/update-notifier/package-data-downloader@305:process_download_requests:print_exc:print_exception" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1640318
<bdmurray> â done
<slangasek> no sil2100?
<slangasek> pitti:
<pitti> autopkgtest:
<pitti> - Fix github retry script to work for automatic build-git detection (for snapcraft)
<pitti> - Figure out and document how to mass-retry tests more efficiently
<pitti> - Fix ENOSPC on armhf slaves, file lxd bug (#1640128)
<pitti> - Make request.cgi session cookie permanent, to avoid having to re-login to SSO after every browser restart
<pitti> netplan:
<pitti> - Make networkd and NM route metrics compatible (#1639754)
<pitti> - Fix race condition in integration tests
<pitti> - New release and SRU to xenial
<pitti> - Some documentation fixes
<pitti> systemd:
<pitti> - Backport graphical session units for snappy (#1640293)
<pitti> - Fix nspawn regression of exit code (Debian #843509)
<pitti> - Fix tests to work on merged /usr testbed
<pitti> - Write generic autopkgtest for CLI binaries (--help, --version, invalid option)
<ubottu> Debian bug 843509 in systemd "systemd 232 breaks docker with "no subsystem for mount" error" [Important,Fixed] http://bugs.debian.org/843509
<pitti> - Investigate/fix systemd logind test regression
<pitti> misc:
<pitti> - Prepare trusty SRUs for init-system-helpers and systemd for introducing "systemd deputy init" for snapd (#1616422)
<pitti> - Backport "indefinite number of loop devices" support to trusty for snappy (ongoing) (#1640823)
<pitti> - umockdev: Fix test regression, do new upstream release 0.8.12, package for D/U
<pitti> - Help mvo with setting up snapd GitHub PR autopkgtests
<pitti> - Prepare UOS netplan talk (ongoing)
<pitti> - Review https://code.launchpad.net/~brian-murray/apport/zgrep-fallback/+merge/310218
<pitti> - Review https://code.launchpad.net/~smoser/cloud-init/+git/cloud-init/+merge/310386
<pitti> EOF
<xnox> Removing /boot partition from LVM installs, in progress.
<xnox> Removing swap partitions / lowering swap usage, in progress.
<xnox> boost1.62 transition - almost done (just individual packages remaining)
<xnox> ssl unmigration - sticking to 1.0 for now
<xnox> migration away from 1k keys, in progress.
<xnox> zua testing
<xnox> EOF
<infinity> Short week due to illness:
<infinity>  - Working on ubuntu-image/cdimage integration
<infinity>  - Updating tzdata
<infinity>  - Generic SRU/AA stuff
<infinity>  - Signed up to help build a wall to keep out American refugees
<infinity> Off tomorrow for Remembrance Day
<infinity> NO CARRIER
<slangasek> chiluk: hi, anything for this week?
<slangasek> barry:
<barry> ubuntu-image: various triaging, cleanups, discussions, reviews, etc.; LP: #1621445; LP: #1617421; ongoing fixes to autopkgtest/gh-ci setups; releases: 0.11 & SRUs
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1621445 in Ubuntu Image "Suppress the traceback unless --debug is given" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1621445
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1617421 in Ubuntu Image "human-readable error messages on parser failures, not python stacktraces" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1617421
<barry> debuntu: claws-mail 3.14.1-1 syncpackage dropping ubuntu delta, testing (need to debug python plugin failures)
<barry> other: upgrade laptop to zesty - filed several regression bugs ;)
<barry> swapping tomorrow for 25-nov
<barry> --done--
<caribou> Bugfix:
<caribou> Slow SSH login
<caribou>    - Still under investigation with LP: #1591411
<caribou>    - No more problem with failing server. Will test sil2100's fix if it restarts
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1591411 in dbus (Ubuntu Yakkety) "systemd-logind must be restarted every ~1000 SSH logins to prevent a ~25 second delay" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1591411
<caribou> Samba libnss-winbind / libpam-winbind static build (LP: #1584485)
<caribou>  - Uploaded to Z, SRUed to T, X & Y. Now in -proposed
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1584485 in samba (Debian) "Upgrading samba to latest security fixes together with winbind in nsswitch.conf can harm entire OS" [Unknown,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1584485
<caribou> tftp-hpa does not start on reboot (LP: #1342580)
<caribou>  - Waiting for Debian decision to backport their fix
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1342580 in tftp-hpa (Ubuntu) "tftpd-hpa doesn't start on boot" [High,Expired] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1342580
<caribou> Development:
<caribou> makedumpfile not working on kernel 4.8 (LP: #1626269)
<caribou>  - Fixed in Debian. Synced to Zesty
<caribou>  - Preparing SRU for T, X & Y
<ubottu> Error: Could not gather data from Launchpad for bug #1626269 (https://launchpad.net/bugs/1626269). The error has been logged
<caribou> Misc SRU sponsoring : multipath-tools, python-pip, python-os-brick
<caribou> Off tomorrow and sprinting next week in Malta
<caribou> â Done
<cyphermox> - was at Plumbers last week,
<cyphermox> - SRUs for shim to P, T, X, Y.
<cyphermox> - testing shim updates via PPA.
<cyphermox> - discussed SMT on ppc64el w/ infinity, smoser.
<cyphermox> - more coordination for the IPv6 remote-root stuff, open-iscsi is now in proposed, still left with isc-dhcp and initramfs-tools.
<cyphermox> - investigated JFS install failure on ppc64el some more, looks like a kernel issue.
<cyphermox> - preparing wpa merge after a week testing at Plumbers.
<cyphermox> (done)
<slangasek> doko:
<robru> no doko?
<slangasek> sil2100: hi, would you like to go next?
<sil2100> Uh oh! Please wait for me
<slangasek> ok
<sil2100> I just entered my apartment, need to prep a quick list
<slangasek> robru:
<robru> lp:bileto
<robru> * db schema / json api cleanup
<robru> * first snap iteration
<robru> * UI redesign, better mobile support
<robru> * FINALLY got creds in place for Ubuntu System Tests
<robru> * Split qa_signoff into bileto-controlled qa and user-controlled qa_signoff fields.
<robru> * Update to qakit r202.
<robru> * Email ppa upload failures to bileto user.
<robru> * Fix search by hitting enter.
<robru> * Fix race condition when creating db tables.
<robru> * Fix nagios check for new v2 api.
<robru> * Handle Ctrl+Enter saving ticket fields
<robru> lp:britney
<robru> * a few more iterations towards source ppa grouping.
<robru> lp:qakit, lp:queuebot, lp:phablet-tools, lp:ubuntu-silo-installer
<robru> * Update for latest bileto json api changes
<robru> (done)
<tdaitx> sil2100, I'm last, you can go after me ;-)
<slangasek>  * Cloud sprint last week
<slangasek>  * SRU reviews
<slangasek>  * discussion around how to accurately map USNs to packages for Landscape
<slangasek>  * swap day yesterday for travel
<slangasek>  * US holiday tomorrow
<slangasek> tdaitx:
<slangasek> (done)
<tdaitx> = OpenJDK Updates
<tdaitx> * Fixed one security backport
<tdaitx> * Provided OpenJDK 7 packages for the security team
<tdaitx> * Split changes to OpenJDK 8 into a few git branches, in particular:
<tdaitx>    - aarch32 support, jtreg improvements, new buildwatch, use autoconf-2.68 on Precise, jvm cfg generation, -O3 strip fix
<tdaitx>    - official repo is in bazaar, but each change requires a separated bzr repo (and a single one already takes ages to upload)
<tdaitx> * Investigated multiple gcc's "-O3" and "-O0" optimization flags on OpenJDK 8 for  PPC64LE during jdk's fdlibm builds; turns out debian/rules is only stripping -O2 but PPC64LE has "-O3" by default
<tdaitx> * Investigated Debian #843784 as a possible regression due to the OpenJDK 7 update; for now it seems like an icedtea-web update is required (ongoing)
<ubottu> Debian bug 843784 in openjdk-7-jre "openjdk-7-jre: After last security update, icedtea-plugin fails all applets" [Normal,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/843784
<tdaitx> * Investigating possible regression on the new OpenJDK 8 package; new test failures are due to the jtreg run mode; trying to force failed tests to run on othervm mode (ongoing)
<tdaitx> * Review and clean-up of OpenJDK 7 patches while doing some MUT tests on the weekend, submitted a few upstream
<tdaitx> (done)
<slangasek> sil2100: ok, your turn :)
<sil2100> Ok, a quick one
<sil2100> - Work on ubuntu-image bugs (thanks barry for the reviews!)
<sil2100> - Work on preparing OTA-14 images
<sil2100> - Discussions on image building and the release process
<sil2100> - Help with landings and the usual trainguard stuff
<slangasek> sil2100: (done)?
<sil2100> Ah! (done)
<slangasek> ok :)
<slangasek> any questions on status?
<sil2100> Oh, and tomorrow is a national holiday
<barry> sil2100: \o/
<slangasek> sil2100: what holiday is it there? :)
<sil2100> (possibly why the traffic was so terrible on my way back from my parents place)
<slangasek> so far we have Armistice Day, Veterans Day, Remembrance Day
<sil2100> Liberation Day
<sil2100> Or Independence Day
<sil2100> Something like that
<sil2100> ;)
<slangasek> nice
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Sprint travel
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Sprint travel
<slangasek> by this point everyone should already have booked their travel and gotten their travel details on the spreadsheet
<slangasek> if you haven't, you're late :P
<slangasek> and I will pester you all day until you get it in
<slangasek> I haven't looked yet to see who is or isn't on the spreadsheet, so you have roughly an hour to get your request in before the nagging begins
<slangasek> any questions? :)
<bdmurray> If I'm going to be pestered I don't need to bother double checking right?
<pitti> well played wrt. "optimizing your organization workflow"!
<slangasek> heh
<slangasek> [TOPIC] UOS
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: UOS
<slangasek> UOS is next week
<slangasek> pitti mentioned he's preparing a session to talk about netplan
<pitti> I am yes
<barry> there is a git workflow session in community on tuesday
<slangasek> what else should we be talking about there?
<pitti> some intro, and then some "what are the next steps/cloud-init integration" discussion
<slangasek> infinity: do you think there should be a session for powerpc outreach?
<xnox> slangasek, there is architecture session for both powerpc & i386 schedule already
<xnox> please attend =)
<slangasek> oh is there?
<slangasek> that's new since when I looked at the schedule last
<xnox> Removing /boot partition from LVM installs, in progress.
<xnox> Removing swap partitions / lowering swap usage, in progress.
<xnox> boost1.62 transition - almost done (just individual packages remaining)
<xnox> ssl unmigration - sticking to 1.0 for now
<xnox> migration away from 1k keys, in progress.
<xnox> zua testing
<xnox> EOF
<xnox> bah
<xnox> http://summit.ubuntu.com/uos-1611/meeting/22714/architecture-discussions/
<infinity> Wrong buffer. :P
<xnox> infinity, i hate middle mouse stuff
<xnox> "There have been discussions about flavors dropping either building CDs of: powerpc i386"
<xnox> Let's get an update or let some more discussions happen live.
<infinity> slangasek: I'm still sorting the private outreach.  I'm not sure that a UOS session would help.
<slangasek> xnox: is it on the schedule, or yet-to-be-scheduled?
<pitti> yes, Tuesday last sesion
<xnox> it's on the shedule.... i think
<pitti> 1900 UTC
<infinity> But yes, the ISO disucssion is worth having.
<slangasek> infinity: well, it seems there's a session on the calendar for it, so it doesn't hurt to include outreach in it if it's going to happen.  If nothing else, if you can get a mailing list set up before then you have somewhere to point people
<infinity> I'd love to see us drop all 32-bit ISOs ASAP, personally, regardless of what long-term plans we have for the archive.
<slangasek> sounds like Tuesday should be a good discussion, then :)
<slangasek> what else for UOS?
<barry> xnox: i'd like to try to figure out if the boost transition is what's breaking claws' python plugin.
<slangasek> there's also a session about git-based package merge workflow, should be good
<barry> yes
<barry> 1600utc tuesday
<caribou> slangasek: been using that workflow for the last two cycles
<xnox> barry, i believe it is.
<slangasek> http://summit.ubuntu.com/uos-1611/meeting/22710/git-based-merge-workflow/
<slangasek> that's the git
<barry> xnox: clearly a rebuild alone doesn't fix it
<slangasek> any other ideas for UOS sessions?
<barry> caribou: i've used it for merges and it's miles better than the old way
<cyphermox> do we have anything EFI-related to discuss?
<slangasek> I'm not sure there's anything that needs broader discussion re EFI
<cyphermox> just checking, I don't think so.
<cyphermox> people tend to know to find us.
<slangasek> ok, so if no other UOS proposals...
<slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<slangasek> anything else for the meeting?
<bdmurray> Anybody have an idea about bug 1640318?
<ubottu> bug 1640318 in update-notifier (Ubuntu) "/usr/lib/update-notifier/package-data-downloader:OSError:process_download_requests:/usr/lib/update-notifier/package-data-downloader@305:process_download_requests:print_exc:print_exception" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1640318
<bdmurray> print is failing w/o an Input/output error
<bdmurray> Should I just put it in a try / except and not worry about an SRU test case?
<pitti> oh, running in an env where the parent process closed fd 1?
<bdmurray> There are hundreds to look at in the Error Tracker
<barry> yeah, why would fd1 get closed?
<barry> but stderr isn't?
<pitti> package-data-downloader sounds like something that would get spawned in the background, not on the CLI
<pitti> barry: how do you know that stderr isn't?
<barry> pitti: oh, i guess that traceback is getting printed to a file
<bdmurray> pitti: right, its run via cron
<pitti> barry: no, via apport handler I figure
<bdmurray> cron.daily/update-notifier-common
<pitti> bdmurray: hm, cron should have stdout and err (to a pipe)
<barry> bdmurray: it would probably make more sense not to print status information if there's no stdout
<infinity> print not flipping out if there's no stdout might also make sense. :P
<pitti> bdmurray: but ignoring IOError on print seems fine to me, there's not really anything you can do about it
<barry> which i guess a try/except (or contextlib.suppress) is a brute force way of doing that
<infinity> A user of a high-level scripting language probably shouldn't have to care.
<infinity> But I'd also kinda like to know the exact context in which that script doesn't have stdout.
<infinity> Seems fishy.
<barry> it kind of doesn't make sense for print to not flip out of there's no stdout.  although, you *could* give it an explicit file= arg and use stdout if available or os.devnull if not
<infinity> cron should, apt should.
<pitti> if cron dies, I'd expect a SIGPIPE, but that could just represent itself as an IOError
<pitti> maybe your /dev/null is full
<slangasek> A cron job certainly should have stdout, so it's a strange failure
<barry> hmm
<bdmurray> Oh, that reminds me of bug 1618900
<ubottu> bug 1618900 in unattended-upgrades (Ubuntu) "[Xenial/0.90] Systemd dependencies issues when used in "Shutdown mode"" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1618900
<infinity> Do we know for sure this is happening under cron, or is that wild guessing?
<infinity> package-data-downloader is triggered from other places too.
<bdmurray> infinity: I don't think we know its being called from cron, is there anything in the crash report that might give it away?
<bdmurray> https://errors.ubuntu.com/oops/17e726c4-a6af-11e6-a2de-fa163e192766
<infinity> Pid: 5464
<infinity> PPid: 1
<infinity> Its parent is init.
<infinity> That's not what I'd expect a cron job to look like.
<bdmurray> There's another with Pid: 9666
<bdmurray> PPid: 9665
<bdmurray> though
<pitti> TERM=xterm-256color
<pitti> that's also not something which I'd expect from a system job/cron job
<bdmurray> Okay, so the decision maybe we shouldn't put the print in a try except and dig a bit deeper?
<pitti> infinity: double-fork/detach?
<infinity> pitti: Yeah, but why and where? :P
<slangasek> infinity: what else besides cron and apt is triggering package-data-downloader?
<infinity> slangasek: I would think only those two.  Well, I would hope.
<infinity> Also, I need to run to the little developers' room.
<slangasek> bdmurray: I think it's reasonable to put it in try/except because we should be resilient in the face of fd issues, but I think we also want to dig deeper
 * doko reads backlog, sorry for being late
<barry> bdmurray: yeah, i think dig a little deeper, but worse comes to worse, the try/except or contextlib.suppress is a terrible, but useful hammer
<slangasek> doko: hi, want to give a quick status?
<bdmurray> wrt digging deeper is there anything to query the crashdb for?
<doko> - prepare and test gcc-5 update for xenial (ppc64el only)
<doko> - tracking down ld.gold arm64 ICE, ftbfs in gitit
<doko> - track down and fix gcc-6 Linaro regression
<doko> - merge GCC 6
<doko> - prepare and upload binutils trunk builds
<doko> - merged tdaitx's openjdk-8 changes
<doko> - python3.6 beta3 release
<doko> - openjdk-9 update
<doko> - first GCC 7 packages
<doko> - merges, syncs ...
<doko> (done)
<slangasek> bdmurray: I guess you could look for similar IOErrors
<slangasek> doko: thanks
<slangasek> bdmurray: if there's not an obvious way forward then it's not worth spinning wheels on, in any case
<slangasek> just something to keep in the back pocket, as "hey we noticed this weird thing where a script that was supposed to be running from a cronjob had no stdout, that's never supposed to happen"
<bdmurray> roger
<slangasek> ok, anything else?
<slangasek> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Nov 10 16:53:30 2016 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2016/ubuntu-meeting.2016-11-10-16.02.moin.txt
<slangasek> thanks, all
<barry> thanks!
<cyphermox> thanks!
<pitti> thanks everyone
<caribou> thanks!
#ubuntu-meeting 2017-11-06
<tyhicks> hello
<chrisccoulson> hi
<tyhicks> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Nov  6 16:37:27 2017 UTC.  The chair is tyhicks. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<tyhicks> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<tyhicks> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Announcements
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Announcements
<tyhicks> Lucas Kocia (lkocia) provided a debdiff for xenial for firewalld (LP: #1617617)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1617617 in firewalld (Ubuntu Xenial) "Firewall configuration can be modified by any logged in user" [Low,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1617617
<tyhicks> Jeremy Bicha (jbicha) provided a debdiff for zesty for gdm3 (LP: #1729354)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1729354 in gdm3 (Ubuntu) "17.04: GDM lock screen can be circumvented when autologin is set" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1729354
<tyhicks> Thank you for your assistance in keeping Ubuntu users secure! :)
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<tyhicks> jdstrand: you're up
<mdeslaur> \o
<leosilva> o/
<jdstrand> hello
<jdstrand> Last week I focused primarily on the customer regression related to the expanded udev tagging work that landed in 2.28. This week I plan:
<jdstrand> * finish up some new spread tests based for better high-level coverage of security backcends
<jdstrand> * investigate the udev_enumerate regression ondra reported
<jdstrand> * investigate the broadcom-asic-control interfacec bug
<jdstrand> * snapd PR reviews
<jdstrand> * continue uid/gid work for snap privilege dropping
<jdstrand> s/based//
<jdstrand> that's it from me. mdeslaur, you're up
<mdeslaur> I'm on bug triage this week
<mdeslaur> I'm currently testing openssl updates. chrisccoulson managed to figure out the regression on armhf caused by the newer gcc on artful+ with some pretty impressive debugging work
<mdeslaur> and I have a big imagemagick update to look at
<mdeslaur> that's pretty much it for me, sbeattie?
<tyhicks> chrisccoulson: thanks for helping out with that openssl build failure
<tyhicks> chrisccoulson: that was quite impressive work
<chrisccoulson> no worries :)
<tyhicks> I'll go and maybe Steve will be around later
<tyhicks> I've got a couple more eCryptfs kernel patches to review and also need to prepare for the 4.15 merge window (only bug fixes to go up)
<tyhicks> oh, I'm in the happy place this week
<tyhicks> I have an embargoed issue
<tyhicks> and then I'll start work on squashfs reproduceability
<tyhicks> I got sidetracked last week as we were finalizing the apparmor move to gitlab and figuring out the new processes
<tyhicks> that's it for me
<jdstrand> chrisccoulson: btw, that was a pretty awesome debug :)
<tyhicks> jjohansen isn't around
<tyhicks> sarnold: you're up
<jdstrand> re squashfs reproducability> \o/
 * tyhicks pokes sarnold again
<sarnold> I'm in the happy place this week; I'll be doing apparmor patch reviews as I can, and embargoed work
 * mdeslaur hands tyhicks the memset magic wand
<sarnold> I think that should be it for me this week, chrisccoulson?
<chrisccoulson> I've got a firefox update to prepare, although the update isn't until next week. It's a big one though, so I wouldn't mind people installing it
<tyhicks> chrisccoulson: let us know when we can start using it
<chrisccoulson> Then there's rust 1.21. There's still 2 builds that don't complete successfully, but the failures are completely random. I'm not too sure what to do with these yet, but I want to avoid losing another week to this
<chrisccoulson> (I've just hit retry on one again actually whilst there's not a backlog of builds)
<sarnold> did we switch to using rust's llvm fork?
<chrisccoulson> And then hopefully I will actually get time to start working on other things
<chrisccoulson> sarnold, I've done that already. The only architecture it's caused a problem on is s390x (doesn't build there at all)
<chrisccoulson> I think that's me done
<sarnold> argh :/ I was hoping for better than that :(
<chrisccoulson> I'm hoping this works out better. The last rust update required around 6 patches backporting to llvm. This one intentionally broke a feature entirely with the system llvm. And the next release will require a whole new llvm version
<chrisccoulson> I can't remember who's next. ratliff?
<ratliff> I'm in the happy place this week
<ratliff> I have another article to write
<ratliff> More work on kpis
<ratliff> on to you leosilva
<leosilva> I'm community this week
<leosilva> I just push an update early
<leosilva> I'll try to work on vim update (but I'm skeptical about if the patch fix the issue)
<leosilva> other than that I'll follow with the normal hunting.
<leosilva> that's all for me... tyhicks it's back to you
<sbeattie> I can go.
<sbeattie> I'm on cve triage this week
<sbeattie> I have an openjdk-8 update to publish today
<sbeattie> I have some kernel triage stuff to catch up on
<sbeattie> I'll be looking at identifying needed snap updates
<sbeattie> And I have some background tasks to work on post the apparmor move to gitlab.
<sbeattie> That'll likely consume my week.
<sbeattie> tyhicks: back to you.
<tyhicks> thanks!
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
<tyhicks> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.
<tyhicks> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
<tyhicks> https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/udfclient.html
<tyhicks> https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/pidgin.html
<tyhicks> https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/firebird2.5.html
<tyhicks> https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/tcptrack.html
<tyhicks> https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/git-annex.html
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
<tyhicks> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
<tyhicks> jdstrand, mdeslaur, sbeattie, jjohansen, sarnold, ChrisCoulson, ratliff, leosilva: Thanks!
<tyhicks> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Nov  6 17:00:10 2017 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2017/ubuntu-meeting.2017-11-06-16.37.moin.txt
<ratliff> thanks, tyhicks
<mdeslaur> thanks tyhicks!
<leosilva> tks tyhicks !
<sbeattie> tyhicks: thanks!
<jdstrand> thanks tyhicks :)
<sarnold> thanks tyhicks!
<sil2100> o/
<bdmurray> o/
<jbicha> hi
<sil2100> We don't have much on the agenda, but I'd like to use the occasion to discuss Balint's case and the Budgie packageset
<sil2100> But I guess we don't have quorum today anyway
<sil2100> jbicha, bdmurray: should we continue to handle Balint's application through e-mail?
<bdmurray> I think the relevant context is there so that or wrap the existing thread
<jbicha> I think the problem is rbalint might not have a strong enough application for core dev right now
<jbicha> I think he would have a stronger motu application so maybe we should encourage him to switch to that?
<bdmurray> Isn't he also a DD and could get PPU rights for those packages?
<jbicha> yes, that's part of why his motu application would be stronger, in my opinion
<bdmurray> Well, regardless I think he deserves a response regarding his application as it stands
<jbicha> I can follow up to ask him if he wants to apply for motu instead, is that ok?
<sil2100> I think it's better if we first have a vote formally made
<sil2100> Since recommending motu before actually knowing if the board is willing to approve of his application would be a bit rude
<bdmurray> Right we are making an asasumption it wouldn't pass
<sil2100> If it fails I'd say we then recommend him MOTU
<jbicha> fair enough
<sil2100> I already talked with him and he said he'd be fine, although of course core-dev is his aim
<bdmurray> Lets try to bring it to a vote then
<jbicha> bdmurray: we have quorum now, right? so we do we want to start the vote here and continue on the list if we need more votes?
<bdmurray> I think there are only three of us here
<micahg> I'm here as well
<bdmurray> Unless the vote is unamious we'd have to go to the list and I don't think that's likely.
<jbicha> would it speed up the list voting to have people vote here now?
<micahg> I think I'd need to reread the correspondence to vote
<micahg> so would prefer to do it on the list
<bdmurray> It look like Robie owes Balint a reply too regarding his expectations.
<cyphermox> fwiw, rbalint did raise a question that he didn't know what was expected of him on his application. That's a fair question that merits a clarification, as it seems we haven't always held people to the same standards
<cyphermox> yes, that ^
<bdmurray> Okay, I think enough of us are in agreement that we should look at the email thread again and continue the conversation / start voting if you are ready.
<sil2100> +1
<sil2100> We're really bad at e-mail application handling, would be nice if everyone could take a look at it in the nearest 24 hours
<cyphermox> that kind of has to do with going to email threads quickly; that goes as an extension to the IRC that doesn't tend to end
<bdmurray> sil2100: Did you want to talk about something else or are we good for the not meeting.
<sil2100> I guess we're good, we can discuss the Budgie thing next time, no urgency
<sil2100> Since fossfreedom now has the powers he needs
<bdmurray> Okay, I'm gonna make some coffee
<jbicha> who's going to be responsible for looking at what a Budgie packageset would look like?
<micahg> probably depends what's in the seed, but I think he'd have to apply for a flavor packageset as that's not what was voted on
<micahg> we've done similar things for ubuntustudio in the past where PPU was sought for core packages for the flavor, but not the full flavor packageset
<cyphermox> setting up the flavor seed is trivial, I can get the output for that it would be
<jbicha> well my impression was he did originally apply for a flavor packageset but let's see what the diff would be first
<cyphermox> jbicha: there are two different things
<cyphermox> jbicha: fossfree.dom applied to be able to upload stuff for budgie, he was deemed not ready for having upload rights for a flavor seed, so we sugested PPU for some packages
<cyphermox> (based on a list he already had)
<jbicha> I think the biggest part of him "not being ready" was that we didn't create the flavor packageset
<cyphermox> having a flavour packageset is something that needs to happen anyway, since eventually there should be some dev who uploads to budgie in general
<cyphermox> jbicha: no
<jbicha> I'm just particularly frustrated about fossfreedom's case, it's part of why I applied to DMB actually
<cyphermox> creating the packageset is a job of two minutes, it's not blocking much by any means
<jbicha> I don't like how much time we've spent of his asking him to come back and how much time we've kept him waiting for upload rights
<cyphermox> the question is "Given flavour X's packageset, is the applicant ready to upload to any of the N packages in there"
<jbicha> anyway, please provide us the output of the packageset so that we can actually decide if there's a big enough difference there to ask him to come back
<cyphermox> neither am I, but creating packagesets is a question orthogonal to whether someone is ready to have that ACL added.
<jbicha> and whether that difference is big enough for him to want to
<micahg> we have a few flavors with no flavor packageset uploaders
<cyphermox> you can look at the ubuntu-mate seed already, it will be a reasonable approximation of what you might find on the budgie packageset.
<cyphermox> (but I'll have packageset-report spit out the result, it just takes a while)
<jbicha> would it be fine to post that to the list and we can discuss the specifics next meeting?
<cyphermox> micahg: sure, but there's no cost to having the packageset created, and we then know what it entails if someone asks "I want to upload for $cUbuntu
<micahg> cyphermox: I'm all for having it ready for people to apply for, just not to grant it willy nilly to people
<cyphermox> micahg: there wasn't a question of that
<cyphermox> we're in full agreement
<micahg> we are :)
<jbicha> (sorry to repeat myself), but that is what fossfreedom asked for and we told him no without having a formal vote and without even having the specifics of what it was we were deciding on
<cyphermox> jbicha: did you read the thread? because that's not /quite/ what happened as I recall.
<micahg> that's what's on the wiki, but not what happened in the meeting as I recall
<jbicha> I followed the thread actively at the time, I even attended DMB meetings to urge you to take action since his application was delayed for too long
<micahg> I think it's a semantic question
<micahg> *question of semantics
<micahg> he asked for specific packages
<cyphermox> jbicha: there are a couple of things at play: there's not much use in creating the packageset if there's nobody to add to it, but there's also no cost in having the set exist.
<cyphermox> jbicha: the content of a packageset is not quite so much the key to whether someone is ready to upload $flavour
<cyphermox> I was one who was quite happy to have the packageset generated anyway
<jbicha> cyphermox: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/devel-permissions/2017-April/001084.html
<jbicha> he is clearly asking for packageset rights and we apparently have clearly told him no, largely based on the packageset not existing
<micahg> he asked for specific packages as a packageset, not flavor packageset
<cyphermox> that's not what that email says?
<jbicha> > Please can a packageset be officially defined for Ubuntu Budgie?
<jbicha> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/technical-board/2017-March/002295.html
<jbicha> > I recently requested package-set maintainership for our (Ubuntu Budgie) packages via the DMB.
<cyphermox> jbicha: yes, as I mentioned earlier: deferred because there is no reason to create it now when there is nobody who has access to it
<jbicha> that's a chicken-and-egg game that was unfair to fossfreedom
<cyphermox> no
<cyphermox> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/packagesets/artful/personal-fossfreedom exists
<cyphermox> packageset != flavor packageset.
<jbicha> we're going around in circles here and I don't want to extend this meeting
<cyphermox> there is no question that upload rights were fine for the packages in that list, otherwise they would not be.
<cyphermox> is anyone waiting for the room?
<jbicha> but please send us the packageset you generate and we can discuss what to do next instead of what went wrong
<cyphermox> what needs to happen next is the same as usually happens when someone is not approved for upload rights: reapply.
<cyphermox> (or well, extend a voting thread by email indefinitely, whatever)
#ubuntu-meeting 2017-11-07
<rbasak> o/
<rbasak> Who's here?
<powersj> o/ (or am I an hour off)
<cpaelzer> o/
<smb> o/
<rbasak> #startmeeting ubuntu-server-team
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Nov  7 16:01:41 2017 UTC.  The chair is rbasak. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:
<blackboxsw> \o
<rbasak> #topic Review ACTION points from the previous meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Review ACTION points from the previous meeting
<rbasak> * dpb1 to follow up on LP: #1686437
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1686437 in simplestreams (Ubuntu Zesty) "glance sync: need keystone v3 auth support" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1686437
<rbasak> dpb isn't here right now. Let's move on.
<cpaelzer> I was keeping him busy, but he also has a conflicting meeting now
<rbasak> #topic Ubuntu Server Development
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Ubuntu Server Development
<rbasak> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BionicBeaver/ReleaseSchedule
<rbasak> #link https://trello.com/b/U9HhWyT0/daily-ubuntu-server
<rbasak> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-bb-tracking-bug-tasks.html#ubuntu-server
<dpb1> o/
<rbasak> Anything to discuss about Bionic development in general?
<nacc> the builders are waterlogged still
<nacc> so be patient, and you'll get lots of nag emails :)
<rbasak> #topic Server & Cloud Bugs & SRU/Pending Uploads (slashd, ddstreet)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Server & Cloud Bugs & SRU/Pending Uploads (slashd, ddstreet)
<rbasak> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-bb-tracking-bug-tasks.html#ubuntu-server
<rbasak> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-aa-tracking-bug-tasks.html#ubuntu-server
<rbasak> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-z-tracking-bug-tasks.html#ubuntu-server
<rbasak> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-x-tracking-bug-tasks.html#ubuntu-server
<rbasak> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-t-tracking-bug-tasks.html#ubuntu-server
<rbasak> slashd, ddstreet: around?
<slashd> rbasak, oh right meeting change time
<slashd> I'm here but not prepared, nothing really major this week, working on PCP MIR (got a ACK from security team)
<rbasak> #info Nothing really major this week
<slashd> and working on releasing a new version pkg for ubuntu-advantage-tools with sil2100
<rbasak> #info slashd is working on the PCP MIR
<rbasak> #info slashd is working on a new ubuntu-advantage-tools update with sil2100
<rbasak> Thanks slashd!
<rharper> o/
<rbasak> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee)
<slashd> rbasak, yw, sorry for not being more prepare
<smb> Nothing (yet) to report.
<rbasak> #info Nothing (yet) to report.
<rbasak> Thanks smb!
<rbasak> #topic Open Discussion
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Open Discussion
<rbasak> Anything to discuss?
<rbasak> #info Nothing to discuss.
<rbasak> #topic Announce next meeting date, time and chair
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Announce next meeting date, time and chair
<rbasak> #info Next meeting Tuesday, 2017-11-14 at 1600 UTC, chair will be ahasenack
<rbasak> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Nov  7 16:07:45 2017 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2017/ubuntu-meeting.2017-11-07-16.01.moin.txt
<cpaelzer> most efficient meeting goes to rbasak
<cpaelzer> but it points out more and more what we discussed in NY we likely have so much syncs in place that the meeting might have become superfluous
<dpb1> cpaelzer: +1
#ubuntu-meeting 2017-11-09
<rbalint> o/
<sil2100> o/
<rcj> o/
<philroche> o/
 * slangasek waves
<Tribaal> o/
<infinity> \o
<cyphermox> ~o~
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Nov  9 16:02:07 2017 UTC.  The chair is slangasek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Lightning round
<slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e slangasek bdmurray xnox tdaitx doko sil2100 rbalint infinity cyphermox mwhudson rcj philroche Odd_Bloke tribaal fginther)
<slangasek> mwhudson fginther sil2100 slangasek philroche doko tdaitx bdmurray cyphermox xnox tribaal infinity rcj rbalint Odd_Bloke
<gaughen> o/
<slangasek> fginther:
<slangasek> sil2100:
<sil2100> - Fixing Bileto autopkgtest breakage
<sil2100> - SRU help on ubuntu-advantage-tools and modemmanager
<sil2100> - Lot's of regular SRU work
<sil2100> - Kernel SRU reviews
<sil2100> - +1 maintenance:
<sil2100>   * Fixing dbus-cpp FTBFS
<sil2100>   * Processing the removal of biometryd and folks
<sil2100> - Diving into T-Systems additional NIC hotplugging, proposing hack
<sil2100> - ubuntu-image:
<sil2100>   * Some fixes in preparation for the release, testing on bionic with livecd-rootfs
<sil2100>   * SRUing livecd-rootfs changes to stable series, blocked on those hitting -proposed
<sil2100> - Interviewing preparations
<sil2100> (done)
<fginther> ugh, fail
<fginther> * Partner image work.
<fginther> * Testing images for lp: #1729046.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1729046 in gce-compute-image-packages (Ubuntu Artful) " Update google compute-image-packages to 20171025" [Undecided,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1729046
<fginther> * Other unmentionable things
<fginther> (done)
<bdmurray> slangasek:
<slangasek>  * haskell transition in bionic
<slangasek>  * some babysitting of autopkgtest infra following the cloud redeploy
<slangasek>  * livecd-rootfs SRU again
<slangasek>  * discussions around automation of stable channel ubuntu-core images
<slangasek>  * sprint loads done this week
<slangasek>  * off tomorrow: national holiday
<slangasek> (done)
<slangasek> philroche:
<philroche> * Cloud images build system vanguard
<philroche> * Updates to cloud images build system publication tools
<philroche> (done)
<slangasek> doko:
<doko> - more incoming transitions, second icu transition
<doko> - binutils, gcc-7 update, gcc-8 updates
<doko> - normal archive-admin work
<doko> - trying to escalate some buildd stuff
<doko> - waiting on autopkg testers ...
<doko> (done)
<slangasek> tdaitx:
<tdaitx> [HIGHLIGHT] OpenJDK 8u151 has been released on Xenial, Zesty, and Artful with the latest security fixes. A JIT enabled VM for armhf - from the aarch32 port - has replaced the interpreted ZeroVM (zero is still available in the openjdk-8-jre-zero package).
<tdaitx> * Check, reproduce (or try to), and look upstream for fix to a few reported OpenJDK 8 errors. (LP: #1714698, LP: #1729991, LP: #1591758, and other reports on errors.ubuntu.com)
<tdaitx> * OpenJDK 7 security backports almost done, one final patch has required quite a few additional backports and changes.
<tdaitx> Other:
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1714698 in openjdk-8 (Ubuntu) "java crashed with SIGABRT during "mvn package"" [Medium,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1714698
<tdaitx> * upgraded to Bionic
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1729991 in openjdk-8 (Ubuntu) "/usr/lib/jvm/java-8-openjdk-amd64/jre/bin/java:6:WTFCrash:WebKit::WebCookieManagerProxy::processPoolDestroyed:WebKit::WebProcessPool::~WebProcessPool:WebKit::WebProcessPool::~WebProcessPool:webkit_web_context_finalize" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1729991
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1591758 in openjdk-8 (Ubuntu) "OpenJDK fails due to "SIGBUS (0x7) at pc=0x00007f5e5d8baeed, pid=29891, tid=140043329947392"" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1591758
<tdaitx> * handling IRC proxy/client issues (missing history/playback)
<slangasek> doko: are there more transitions getting tangled right now due to autosyncs?
<slangasek> tdaitx: done?
<tdaitx> gah, yeah
<tdaitx> (done)
<bdmurray> resolved issue with update of errors code on production
<bdmurray> submitted RTs re staging, production update of the Error Tracker
<bdmurray> replied to email regarding Cassandra 3.10 migration
<bdmurray> submitted MP regarding adding bionic to LP retracer config
<slangasek> bdmurray:
<bdmurray> updated daisy retracer configs for bionic
<bdmurray> submitted RT re staging, production updates of daisy on the ET
<bdmurray> updated meta-release files for artful-updates, bionic
<bdmurray> uploaded ubuntu-release-upgrader to allow upgrades to bionic
<bdmurray> investigation into apport-retrace failure w/ dpkg-deb
<bdmurray> uploaded fix for rsyslog bug LP: #1673717
<bdmurray> investigation into & discussion re LP: #1728760
<bdmurray> discussions re release upgrade testing
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1673717 in rsyslog (Ubuntu) "rsyslog GnuTLS error -50" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1673717
<bdmurray> submit RT re ubuntu-archive chroot access on osageorange
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1728760 in aufs-tools (Ubuntu) "17.04 to 17.10 dist upgrade switched me to lowlatency kernel b/c of aufs-tools" [Critical,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1728760
<bdmurray> switched amd64 LP retracers to xenial
<bdmurray> â done
<cyphermox> bionic:
<cyphermox> - investigate gnome-shell crash on my system apparently due to fwupd
<cyphermox> - merge localechooser / migrate to git
<cyphermox> - merge partman-auto-crypto / migrate to git
<cyphermox> - finish grub2 merge and build/boot testing
<cyphermox> - [HIGHLIGHT] upload grub2 2.02
<cyphermox> - prepare new shim for signing by Microsoft / pre-signing tests
<cyphermox> - submit shim 13-0ubuntu2 for signing
<cyphermox> netplan:
<cyphermox> - debug nplan autopkgtests
<cyphermox> - review ddstreet's replug blacklist addition
<cyphermox> - [HIGHLIGHT] netplan release 0.31 & SRUs
<cyphermox> xenial:
<cyphermox> - verifying SRU for linux-kvm DMI (bug LP: #1724359)
<cyphermox> zesty:
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1724359 in linux-kvm (Ubuntu Xenial) "no network after boot" [Undecided,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1724359
<cyphermox> - verifying DOMAINSEARCH SRU for IPv4 DHCP settings in initramfs (bug LP: #1713747)
<cyphermox> other stuff:
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1713747 in klibc (Ubuntu Xenial) "missing DOMAINSEARCH in initramfs output files if the DHCP server doesn't provide one" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1713747
<cyphermox> - DMB meeting & budgie packageset setup
<cyphermox> - investigating signtool.exe behavior for shim signing
<cyphermox> (done)
<slangasek> no xnox today
<slangasek> Tribaal:
<cyphermox> keep up, ubottu
<doko> slangasek: some universe ones, yes, but afaics, no others. the new qt packages are entangled as well
<Tribaal> * Delivered (*minimized*) GKE image to Google \o/
<Tribaal> * Discovered and fixed a couple of problems with our build and testing pipeline with regards to minimized images/testing on GKE
<Tribaal> * Investigated how to consolidate our code to use python to write swift metadata (instead of python + shell), but it turned out not to be a good solution (we are looking into snapping our dependencies instead)
<Tribaal> (Done)
<infinity>  * finish pushing the ocaml transition through over the weekend
<infinity>  * random FTBFS fixes
<infinity>  * got ISO dailies building
<infinity>  * generic AA/SRU tasks
<infinity>  * trying to find disk space on ftpmaster to keep us going
<infinity> (done)
<slangasek> doko: I'm less concerned about whether it's main vs. universe than whether it's entangled and causes more things to get stuck :)
<slangasek> rcj:
<rcj> * Cloud image publication test for Oracle Compute Cloud with new publication tooling
<rcj> * Cloud image publication system care and feeding after testing cloud redeploymednts
<rcj> * Xenial cloud image base build failure fixes
<rcj> * Cloud partner bespoke test image build/publication and debugging
<rcj> * Assisting the vanguard to keep things running smootly
<rcj> \,,/(^_^)\,,/
<rcj> rbalint:
<rbalint> * only things i can't disclose yet
<rbalint> (done)
<Odd_Bloke> * Off last week, playing catch up this week
<Odd_Bloke> * Identified workaround for bionic cloud images infrastructure issue; started working on getting bionic cloud images
<Odd_Bloke> * Out for a few days next week attending an internal meeting
<Odd_Bloke> (done)
<slangasek> any questions on status?
<gaughen> no.
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Bugs
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Bugs
<slangasek> [LINK] http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-bb-incoming-bug-tasks.html#foundations-bugs
<bdmurray> bug 1693948
<ubottu> bug 1693948 in dpkg (Ubuntu) "useless diagnostics in dpkg.log from journalctl due to ellipses" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1693948
<bdmurray> so not that one
<slangasek> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/apt/+bug/1725861
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1725861 in apt (Ubuntu) "APT::AutoRemove::SuggestsImportant "false" should be the default" [High,New]
<cyphermox> I tend to agree that installing and upgrading should yield something that is roughly equivalent, modulo what a user has installed by themselves
<slangasek> punting for now
<slangasek> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/update-manager/+bug/1637180
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1637180 in update-manager (Ubuntu Artful) ""The computer needs to restart" dialog constantly eats CPU" [High,Confirmed]
<cyphermox> sounds like a papercut that would be really nice to fix for an LTS.
<bdmurray> yes, lets target it
<slangasek> agreed
<sil2100> +1
<slangasek> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/update-notifier/+bug/1641671
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1641671 in update-notifier (Ubuntu) ""ttf-mscorefonts-installer: processing..." email message repeatedly from /etc/cron.daily/update-notifier-common" [High,Confirmed]
<cyphermox> to me that's as above, an ugly wart that could be fixed easily (since there's a patch), lots of people might install ttf-* on bb
<bdmurray> let's do take it
<slangasek> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/shim-signed/+bug/1726803
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1726803 in shim-signed (Ubuntu) "unattended-upgrades + nvidia stack upgrade == dkms fail (package shim-signed 1.32~16.04.1+0.9+1474479173.6c180c6-1ubuntu1 failed to install/upgrade: subprocess installed post-installation script returned error exit status 1)" [High,Triaged]
<slangasek> this needs doing
<cyphermox> +10
<slangasek> shall we go over the undecided-prio ones?
<bdmurray> sure
<slangasek> https://bugs.launchpad.net/apport/+bug/1208508
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1208508 in Apport "unable to update an bug with an existing .crash file" [Wishlist,Triaged]
<slangasek> bdmurray set the tag
<sil2100> +0
<slangasek> -1
<cyphermox> +0, I'd use this, but it's not like it's an everyday thing
<slangasek> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/whoopsie/+bug/1424768
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1424768 in whoopsie (Ubuntu) "Consider switching to path based activation" [Undecided,New]
<bdmurray> Does network-manager keep track of on-line / off-line state now?
<cyphermox> kinda
<bdmurray> Would that kinda help then?
<cyphermox> I don't know that it's the point of that bug
<cyphermox> whoopsie already asks NM for whether online, I think?
<slangasek> how does that relate to the reported symptom (constantly running daemon when there are no crash files to report)?
<bdmurray> Ah, got it.
<cyphermox> there's not much use to starting whoopsie on boot until you have something that changed in /var/carsh
<bdmurray> So if .upload in /var/crash run whoopise?
<slangasek> yeah
<bdmurray> +1
<slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<slangasek> anything else for the meeting?
<rcj> nothing
<gaughen> no
<sil2100> Nothing
<gaughen> stop
<slangasek> :)
<Tribaal> nope
<bdmurray> I'm out tomorrow
<sil2100> ;p
<slangasek> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Nov  9 16:42:36 2017 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2017/ubuntu-meeting.2017-11-09-16.02.moin.txt
<cyphermox> nope
<gaughen> I'm out tomorrow too
<slangasek> thanks!
<rcj> Me too and Monday
#ubuntu-meeting 2017-11-10
<szilard> join #multipass
<Laney> korben dallas
#ubuntu-meeting 2018-11-05
<rbasak> Who's here?
<ddstreet> rbasak o/
<tsimonq2> o/ - unfortunately I'm in and out for the next hour.
<ddstreet> so, another DMB meeting that isn't attended by its members? ;-)
<micahg> I'm here if it helps
<rbasak> We need four unfortunately.
<teward> so that's 3 actives, not enough for quorum if I remember my rules right :P
<teward> (sorry i lurk here too frequently :P)
<rbasak> I did propose a way to fix this (by considering those absent to have deemed agree with the consensus of those present) but my proposal wasn't accepted.
<rbasak> Here we are: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/devel-permissions/2017-July/001141.html
<ddstreet> well, i did ask for application via email after the last failure to get quorum, but the only person to send q's to me was sil2100
<ddstreet> maybe I should again as for email evaluation
<slashd> o/
<slashd> We changed hours today, and did realise the new time
<slashd> for me
<rbasak> slashd, tsimonq2, micahg, rbasak: that makes four, so we have quorum if you are all still present. Are you still available to proceed?
<slashd> rbasak, I'm here to stay
<micahg> I have to step away for 5 min and then have a meeting on the phone, I can try to participate
<slashd> who chair the meeting ?
<rbasak> I was waiting to see if quorate members were still available. I'm out of time now, sorry. As we haven't started already I'm going to lose my evening to be waiting around.
<ddstreet> maybe the DMB should stop having irc meetings, and handle all business via email?  The irc mtgs don't really seem to be working out for the DMB.
<rbasak> Email applications get very slow and drawn out.
<ddstreet> in any case, i'll reschedule my application again, and also again request application via email
<ddstreet> rbasak slower than waiting 1 month? ;-)
<rbasak> I much prefer being able to understand applications interactively.
<ddstreet> well feel free to ask me anything now if you want
<rbasak> What we need is people on the DMB to actually be available during meetings :-(
<rbasak> (ie. what they signed up to do)
<ddstreet> yeah that would be nice
<ddstreet> ok unless anyone has any q's for me, i'll go reschedule myself and request email application again
<slashd> rbasak, ML ? ddstreet attended 2 times now already
<slashd> maybe it'll be faster that way if we all vote via ML
<rbasak> Usually we want to review the candidate's answers to others' questions. That's what drags it out - I'm unwilling to vote until everyone has asked what they want. How am I supposed to know when that is?
<ddstreet> well, it's been 3 weeks now since I announced application - DMB members have had plenty of time to come up with questions for me.  Only sil2100 has actually emailed me his q's.
<rbasak> I thought switching to email was premature after just one missed meeting, so I didn't act on that request.
<rbasak> Anyway, I'm going to go now and get my evening back.
<ddstreet> ack, o/
<slashd> o/ rbasak
<rbasak> I'm sorry this is a bad experience for you.
<rbasak> Unfortuately those that are here aren't the ones who can do much about it :-/
<tsimonq2> Hi
<tsimonq2> Sorry.
<tsimonq2> I guess I'm too late :/
<ddstreet> tsimonq2 nah, you have plenty of time to email me any q's you have ;-)
<ddstreet> or ask now, if you want
<tsimonq2> ddstreet: Give me a sec to review your app.
<tsimonq2> What's your UTC offset by chance?
<ddstreet> tsimonq2 -5 currently (with DST)
<ddstreet> the dmb mtg times both are within my normal day
<tsimonq2> Got it.
<tsimonq2> (I'm in Wisconsin; UTC-6)
<ddstreet> yep i'm in raleigh
<ddstreet> the dmb mtg times seem to favor people in the americas
<tsimonq2> Ahh :)
<tsimonq2> ddstreet: Oh, right, I remember reviewing this. I echo Dave's comment; your uploads seem to be high quality, but I'd like to see some more +1 / proposed-migration work before +1'ing your app.
<ddstreet> as i replied to sil2100's email, i don't intend to do much/any +1 / proposed-migration work
<ddstreet> so i may be waiting for your +1 for a long time :)
<ddstreet> if that's a requirement for you
<ddstreet> but i'd still appreciate if you attend the next mtg to provide quorum, even if you don't +1 me :)
<tsimonq2> It is, sorry. SRU Developer seems like a really great spot for you at the moment, and I appreciate your work. :)
<ddstreet> that's too bad, but your call
<ddstreet> see you at the next mtg then, hopefully we can find quorum then :)
<tsimonq2> Hopefully I can be there :)
<tsimonq2> ddstreet: I'm curious though; you have upload access to all of Ubuntu but only in stable releases. What's the reason for seeking Core Developer membership?
<tsimonq2> (If you don't plan to do +1 work.)
<ddstreet> bugs frequently exist in devel too, not just stable releases
<ddstreet> actually fixing bugs in devel is quite different than +1 work
<ddstreet> additionally i'm holding off on merging my rewrite of pull-* tooling until i get coredev
<ddstreet> i could just push past and future changes to the repo today, but i prefer to get coredev before doing that
<tsimonq2> Got it. I guess, to clarify, +1 work doesn't just mean hunting down things in -proposed, it means taking care of your own uploads (while I'd certainly encourage proposed-migration work). I just don't see enough work in devel to justify Core Developer membership in my opinion. 
<ddstreet> also i don't plan to push any of my sru sponsoring tooling without coredev, as well - devel changes feel like they should require coredev
<ddstreet> ack
<ddstreet> tsimonq2 as this is a common theme for me - and maybe others - you (and the DMB) should really think about quantifying "how much" specific things you want to see.  instead of just telling people "you don't have enough...yet"
<tsimonq2> Good point.
<tsimonq2> I understand why you're seeking it though, and I would encourage you to get the opinion of other members; maybe my interpretation is stricter than others'. :)
<ddstreet> as i've never had any objections to any of my applications besides "more"
<tsimonq2> I understand your point, but I look at it not as an amount of uploads but demonstration you know what you're doing with a variety of different packages, which may involve a bit of uploads. When I say "more" I mean more variety, not more uploads.
<tsimonq2> This is nothing against you, like I said, I really appreciate your work and your application is strong, but I'd just like to see a variety of devel uploads.
<micahg> right, so SRU still gives us a check on the uploads to stable releases with SRU team review, core dev has no review, since core dev rights are expansive, appropriate demonstration of a subset of those tasks that a core dev can/should do needs to be demonstrated before being granted those rights
<micahg> IMHO of course :)
<tsimonq2> ^ Right; again, other members might have different opinions, so please do still apply. :)
<tsimonq2> He does bring up a good point though. We have philisophical requirements and general requirements but a general checklist of sorts would be beneficial.
<tsimonq2> I'll review things and bring it up within the DMB.
<micahg> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopers#CoreDev
<tsimonq2> micahg: One could argue that should be more specific though.
<rbasak> tsimonq2, micahg: I've written up my personal opinions/thoughts at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RobieBasak/DMB/CoreDev (not previously publicly shared)
<rbasak> And ddstreet too
 * rbasak disappears again
<micahg> tsimonq2: we discussed that, but we didn't want a checklist either
<tsimonq2> rbasak: I agree with your stance.
<tsimonq2> micahg: How long ago? I'd like to read the arguments either way.
<micahg> it's been a while
<tsimonq2> Maybe it's time to reassess it. :)
#ubuntu-meeting 2018-11-06
 * cpaelzer lights a campfire for mir team
<doko> hi there
<cpaelzer> cyphermox: doko: hiho
<cpaelzer> nothing new and unassigned in the queue
<cpaelzer> checking last updates if I missed some in my inbox or if this can be a quick meeting again
<doko> just re-promoted pycryptodome
<cpaelzer> cyphermox: requested a security check for 1768119  and didrocks requested reasoning for 1742711
<cpaelzer> the latter got updated, but I guess didrocks will handle that right?
<cpaelzer> nothing that seems meeting-worthy I think
<cpaelzer> doko: cyphermox: (other) anything from you that needs a discussion?
<doko> no
#ubuntu-meeting 2018-11-08
<rbalint> o/
<tobikoch> \o
<xnox> o/
<bdmurray> cyphermox: can you run the meeting?
 * vorlon waves
<vorlon> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Nov  8 16:14:31 2018 UTC.  The chair is vorlon. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<vorlon> [TOPIC] Lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Lightning round
<vorlon> $ echo $(shuf -e vorlon bdmurray xnox tdaitx doko sil2100 rbalint infinity cyphermox mwhudson rcj philroche Odd_Bloke juliank fginther platonical tobijk)
<vorlon> sil2100 vorlon juliank rcj doko infinity tobijk bdmurray mwhudson xnox Odd_Bloke rbalint tdaitx platonical fginther philroche cyphermox
<vorlon> hmm I seem to have run the command wrong because I'm the first person listed who's not on vacation
<cyphermox> vorlon: I think you'll want to use a wiser shuf
<vorlon>  * short week; was out yesterday
<vorlon>  * catch-up SRU processing on last Friday, making some headway against the queue
<vorlon>  * discussions around installer work for 19.04
<vorlon>  * proposed-migration work for fixing perl transition and getting the archive open
<vorlon>  * out next Monday (Veterans Day)
<vorlon> (done)
<vorlon> juliank: ?
<vorlon> rcj is out
<vorlon> doko:
<bdmurray> I think its too soon for him
<bdmurray> rcj is travelling
<bdmurray> doko: ?
<bdmurray> infinity isn't here so tobikoch!
<tobikoch> * Crossed the Golden Gate Bridge.
<tobikoch> * Worked on point-in-time fixing of snap versions during image builds.
<tobikoch> (done)
<tobikoch> bdmurray:
<bdmurray> submitted RT re staging ET access to www.apache.org
<bdmurray> updated ET mojo spec to use apache cassandra had MP for that merged
<bdmurray> modified errors code to add arm64 to the architecture drop down box
<bdmurray> submitted RT regarding update of errors code in production
<bdmurray> updated retracer configuration branch (+disco) on Launchpad retracer
<bdmurray> created disco test crashes
<bdmurray> updated meta-release-development for disco
<bdmurray> updated meta-release and m-r-proposed for cosmic's new u-r-u
<xnox> tobikoch, golden gate bridge ++
<bdmurray> uploaded B,C fixes for LP: #1799710 and LP: #1799839
<bdmurray> SRU verified the fixes for the above, got it released early
<bdmurray> uploaded X fix for LP: #1797209 (awaiting review)
<bdmurray> submitted PR for ubiquity dropping dep on ido (needs review)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1799710 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu) "18.04->18.10: update-manager don't show upgrade page" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1799710
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1799839 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu) "not possible to use "Repair broken packages"" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1799839
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1797209 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu Xenial) "do-release-upgrade should block release upgrades in some circumstances" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1797209
<bdmurray> worked on adding icon for ubuntu-release-upgrader bits LP: #1797384
<bdmurray> tested cyphermox's PPA fixing LP: #1794292
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1797384 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu) "release upgrader has no icon in gnome-shell dock" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1797384
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1794292 in plymouth (Ubuntu Cosmic) "plymouthd crashed with SIGSEGV in /sbin/plymouthd:11 in ply_renderer_set_handler_for_input_source -> ply_keyboard_stop_watching_for_renderer_input -> ply_keyboard_stop_watching_for_input -> ply_device_manager_deactivate_keyboards -> on_deactivate" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1794292
<vorlon> (ah shoot, one week soon I will have all the IRC nicks right again in the shuf)
<bdmurray> â
<bdmurray> xnox:
<xnox> * Helping out unbreaking desktop/server images
<xnox> * Helping out with migrations, a bit
<xnox> * Still doing planning/scoping work for subiquity for this cycle
<xnox> done
<bdmurray> Odd_Bloke:
<bdmurray> rbalint:
<rbalint> (short week due to driving on the wrong side up to Monday)
<rbalint> * verified LP: #172680
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 172680 in Exaile "GUI error in ipod track list" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/172680
<rbalint> * released unattended-upgrades 1.7 merging all the Ubuntu delta thus it becomes a sync when disco opens
<rbalint> * further u-u fixes
<rbalint> * preparing LP: #1702793
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1702793 in unattended-upgrades (Ubuntu) "Full backport SRU for unattended-upgrades" [Wishlist,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1702793
<rbalint> (done)
<Odd_Bloke> * Off last week, sprint the week before
<Odd_Bloke> * Catching up on email
<Odd_Bloke> * Cloud images vanguard
<Odd_Bloke> (done)
<tdaitx> * building openjdk-7 with patches for 7u201-b00
<tdaitx> * openjdk-8 8u191 with autopkgtest enabled
<tdaitx> * fixed gradle build issue that caused other packages to fail
<tdaitx> * fixed jtreg build issue that caused it to fail when running on openjdk-8
<tdaitx> (done)
<bdmurray> cyphermox: your turn
<cyphermox> - netplan.io SRUs back to bionic finished (LP: #1793309)
<cyphermox> - add netplan tunnel support
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1793309 in netplan.io (Ubuntu Bionic) "Backport netplan.io 0.40 to bionic" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1793309
<cyphermox> - shim-review: CentOS
<cyphermox> - more debugging plymouth's crash (bug LP: #1794292)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1794292 in plymouth (Ubuntu Cosmic) "plymouthd crashed with SIGSEGV in /sbin/plymouthd:11 in ply_renderer_set_handler_for_input_source -> ply_keyboard_stop_watching_for_renderer_input -> ply_keyboard_stop_watching_for_input -> ply_device_manager_deactivate_keyboards -> on_deactivate" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1794292
<cyphermox> - fix missing config update for GRUB_TIMEOUT change (LP: #1784363)
<cyphermox> - casper a11y fix: screen reader not starting
<cyphermox> - task planning for UEFI Secure Boot policy changes
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1784363 in grub2 (Ubuntu Bionic) "High delay when booting (grub waits with a blank purple screen for 10 seconds before booting the kernel)" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1784363
<cyphermox> - grub2 xenial Windows10-chainload fix (LP: #1792575)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1792575 in shim-signed (Ubuntu Xenial) "Boot failure with efi shims from 20180913.0" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1792575
<cyphermox> (done)
<vorlon> cyphermox: netplan.io srus \o/
<bdmurray> vorlon: that's a status wrap
<vorlon> questions over status?
<cyphermox> vorlon: only as long as they don't regress
<vorlon> [TOPIC] Bugs
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Bugs
<vorlon> bdmurray: is itching to tell us about bugs
<bdmurray> not much exciting at the moment other than bug 1802135 which is being investigated
<ubottu> bug 1802135 in kmod (Ubuntu) "broken touchpad after i2c-i801 blacklist change" [Critical,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1802135
<bdmurray> so that's all from me
<vorlon> ok
<vorlon> [TOPIC] AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<vorlon> anything else?
<cyphermox> There's a LEGO convention this weekend here. :)
<bdmurray> I'm going to take tomorrow off instead of Monday
<vorlon> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Nov  8 16:34:05 2018 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2018/ubuntu-meeting.2018-11-08-16.14.moin.txt
<vorlon> thanks, all
#ubuntu-meeting 2019-11-04
<slashd> o/
<cyphermox> o/
<rbasak> o/
<slashd> I think sil2100 will be late a little bit but he didn't say he won't be attending
<sil2100> o/
<sil2100> (made it)
<slashd> o/ sil2100
<slashd> #startmeeting DMB meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Nov  4 18:59:52 2019 UTC.  The chair is slashd. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | DMB meeting | Current topic:
<slashd> #topic Review of previous action items
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | DMB meeting | Current topic: Review of previous action items
<slashd> #topic slashd to announce & add rafaeldtinoco to ~ubuntu-server-dev and ~motu
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | DMB meeting | Current topic: slashd to announce & add rafaeldtinoco to ~ubuntu-server-dev and ~motu
<slashd> done ^
<slashd> #topic slashd to add marcustomlinson to the right LP teams -> ~ubuntu-dev & ~ubuntu-developer-members
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | DMB meeting | Current topic: slashd to add marcustomlinson to the right LP teams -> ~ubuntu-dev & ~ubuntu-developer-members
<slashd> done ^
<slashd> #topic cyphermox to update PPU for marcustomlinson, adding libreoffice and libreoffice-l10n
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | DMB meeting | Current topic: cyphermox to update PPU for marcustomlinson, adding libreoffice and libreoffice-l10n
<mfo> o/
<cyphermox> done
<slashd> #topic cyphermox to setup nominations, voting for new DMB members
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | DMB meeting | Current topic: cyphermox to setup nominations, voting for new DMB members
<cyphermox> carry over
<slashd> #topic cyphermox to build report for expiry from dev teams
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | DMB meeting | Current topic: cyphermox to build report for expiry from dev teams
<cyphermox> carry over
<slashd> #topic sil2100 to update PPU for Gunnar, adding ibus-avro
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | DMB meeting | Current topic: sil2100 to update PPU for Gunnar, adding ibus-avro
<cyphermox> btw there is #subtopic for that
<slashd> ok will do next time, been a while since I chair
<slashd> any update on Gunnar sil2100 ?
<cyphermox> np, it's just a bit less spammy
<slashd> right
<sil2100> slashd: yes, it's done o/
<slashd> anything else you guys want to talk about before we go with our candidate, mfo ?
<slashd> ok well seems like nothing to discuss
<slashd> Today, Mauricio (mfo) is applying for SRU Developer: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/mfo/sru-developer
<slashd> mfo can you please introduced yourself ?
<mfo> slashd, sure, ctrl-v
<mfo> I'm Mauricio. I work for Canonical in the support organization, more specifically in the Sustaining Engineering team, where I fix bugs reported by Ubuntu Advantage customers, thus usually on the stable releases; fixes go across the main and universe components as necessary, both on userspace packages and kernel.
<mfo> I've been working with Ubuntu since late 2013 for Trusty/14.04 on my previous job at IBM (and also with other company-supported distros), and have been working exclusively with Ubuntu since joining Canonical in June 2018.
<mfo> I'm applying for SRU Developer rights mainly to off-load/load-balance the 2 sponsors in the sustaining engineering team, slashd & ddstreet, as me and
<mfo> all other colleagues in the team currently have only them to review and sponsor our pathes (they're both great and efficient, but they also have all the rest of their own work to do), so looking forward to be able to help them and the team on that front.
<mfo> EOF :)
<slashd> FWIW, mfo is a colleague of mine. I closely work with Mauricio on a daily basis and I have obviously sponsored multiple packages for him.
<slashd> so I know what he is capable of already.
<slashd> Any questions for mfo ?
<sil2100> I need a minute to get up to speed
<slashd> all good
<sil2100> (apologies, just got back from some errands)
<slashd> sil2100, take your time
<sil2100> mfo: ok, a small question from me: let's say you want to upload a new version of the package foo, but notice that there's already a foo in the Unapproved queue from someone else - how would you proceed? Let's assume that your foo fixes are quite important, so you'd want them in -proposed as soon as possible
<mfo> sil2100, ok, i'd reach out to the uploader to see if his/her fixes are too, and accordingly ask to upload a new version either merging our both (important) fixes, or checking if either one can/must wait.
<mfo> eg, if current version in upload queue is not too important/time-sensitive but introduces changes that could risk the acceptance/mmigration of the quite-important/time-sensitive upload,  we could probably talk about getting the more import one first,  so not to risk it's acceptance/verification/migration/delivery :)
<marcustomlinson> The suspense... ;)
<sil2100> mfo: ok, good, thanks
<mfo> sil2100, ack, thanks.
<rbasak> I have no questions.
<slashd> cyphermox ?
<sil2100> mfo: somewhat related, when building the source package (either with debuild or any other tool) there is the -v option that's being passed to dpkg-genchanges - do you know what it's used for?
<rbasak> Your existing SRU work looks good, and generally above the standard I usually see. I would like to take the opportunity to remind everyone about the reason for Regression Potential, as documented, though. It's at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates#Procedure and should include information about how a regression might manifest even if unlikely please.
<mfo> sil2100, no, i'm not familiar w/ that option at the moment, havent used it yet, but i can certainly take the time to check it out.
<mfo> to be honest.
<sil2100> mfo: it's very convenient! For such situations where you want to neatly merge two uploads with separate changelog entries, you can use -v to build the package and include more than one version in the .changes file ;)
<mfo> sil2100, oh, i see. that'd be helpful in the scenario of your question, say, if we were to merge the current upload in queue w/ another one.  thanks!
<rbasak> That information looks like it was missing from your recent SRUs that I sampled, but I trust that you can just do that without needing to see any evidence :)
<rbasak> Sorry to step on the other thread.
<sil2100> mfo: yw!
<sil2100> Ok, no questions from me
<rbasak> without *me needing to see any evidence, that is
<mfo> rbasak, thanks for the feedback on SRU material, i appreciate it.      Hm, did I miss regression potential?  that's certainly an oversight i try hard not to make.
<rbasak> No you put in the section
<mfo> rbasak, i'll try to find what LP it was and how it slipped through.
<mfo> ah.
<rbasak> But I don't think you populate it with exactly what we're looking for
<mfo> rbasak, got it.  i'll review the documentation you mentioned more carefully, and adjust my templates :)  thanks for this feedback as well, and pointing that out.
<rbasak> "Low" or trying to convince us why it is Low is somewhat pointless
<rbasak> We more want to know what to look out for during review, and what to ask for in any testing
<slashd> cyphermox any questions ?
<slashd> sil2100, all good ?
<mfo> rbasak, oh I see.
<rbasak> I mean if there is a good reason why the risk is lower than it might initially appear, that is useful to tell us about of course
<rbasak> But it's the other bits that I'm usually looking to understand please :)
<rbasak> Thanks :)
<cyphermox> no questions
<mfo> rbasak, thank you for bringing that up! :)
<sil2100> All good here
<slashd> #vote Please vote on: Mauricio Oliveira (mfo) SRU Developer application
<meetingology> Please vote on: Please vote on: Mauricio Oliveira (mfo) SRU Developer application
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<slashd> #voterequired 4
<rbasak> +1 strong recent upload history and sponsor endorsements, and recent SRU work all looks good
<meetingology> +1 strong recent upload history and sponsor endorsements, and recent SRU work all looks good received from rbasak
<cyphermox> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from cyphermox
<sil2100> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from sil2100
<slashd> +1 high quality SRU and confident he will ask question when in doubt (e.g. -v parameter)
<meetingology> +1 high quality SRU and confident he will ask question when in doubt (e.g. -v parameter) received from slashd
<slashd> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Please vote on: Mauricio Oliveira (mfo) SRU Developer application
<meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<slashd> Congrats mfo !
<marcustomlinson> Congrats mfo!
<slashd> I'll take care the announcement and adding mfo in LP
<mfo> slashd, \o/
<mfo> thanks folks!
<slashd> of the announcement ^^^
<slashd> anything else you guys want to discuss ?
<rbasak> Was there anything else int he agenda?
<slashd> rbasak, no
<rbasak> "Expiry policy for flavor developer team membership" -> did we do that?
<rbasak> And "DMB elections for the expired 2 members"
<slashd> cyphermox, carried over ^
<slashd> for the expiry policy I missed that one
<slashd> who is working on the expiry policy ?
<cyphermox> I don't know
<cyphermox> it was postponed last time because rbasak wasn't around, we weren't quorate
<rbasak> I don't believe the DMB has ever looked at Steve's request because we never got quorum
<cyphermox> (we had the votes but not more)
<slashd> rbasak, right I'll have to read the link, I don't recall the details
<slashd> cyphermox, do you recall the details of our previous discussion ?
<slashd> I don't on top of my hea
<slashd> head
<cyphermox> we didn't discuss it AFAIK
<slashd> should we vote for it now ?
<rbasak> So I have some questions
<slashd> how do you want to proceed ?
<rbasak> What is the set of per flavour developer teams?
<rbasak> Are cloud and server flavours?
<rbasak> Or just the desktop flavours and ubuntustudio etc?
<rbasak> To be clear I think it makes sense and am happy to implement, but to implement we need a definition I think :)
<rbasak> vorlon: ^ around?
<rbasak> My other request would be to ensure that the teams involved have had an opportunity to provide feedback, but I believe they have - we asked on the flavors list,e tc
<rbasak> Maybe we can assume what the set of teams is and then vote on that.
<slashd> right the mailling list gave them a chance to respond
<slashd> sil2100, rbasak, cyphermox good to vote on have anything you want to address ?
<slashd> or have ^
<rbasak> I'm happy to vote (+1) but I'm not taking an action unless the set of teams gets defined :-)
<rbasak> I suspect Steve will say that it's already well understood what the set is, but I'm not sure I do!
<slashd> let's then postpone and wait until vorlon gets back to us then ? since he doesn't seems around at the moment.
<rbasak> I'd like to avoid blocking on this for another quorate DMB meeting
<rbasak> That might be a while.
<rbasak> Can we just say that we assume the list is the desktop flavors only and vote on that?
<slashd> cyphermox, sil2100 would you agree with that ?
<cyphermox> ok
<rbasak> (I'm counting Ubuntu Studio, but not Server nor Cloud)
<sil2100> Ok
<rbasak> And that we're presumably excluding Ubuntu Desktop
<slashd> #vote Please vote on: 6-month expiry policy for flavor developer team membership
<meetingology> Please vote on: Please vote on: 6-month expiry policy for flavor developer team membership
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<rbasak> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from rbasak
<slashd> #voterequired 4
<slashd> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from slashd
<sil2100> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from sil2100
<slashd> cyphermox ?
<cyphermox> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from cyphermox
<slashd> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Please vote on: 6-month expiry policy for flavor developer team membership
<meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<slashd> so I guess someone have to reply to the ML thread now ?
<rbasak> I can take that action
<slashd> rbasak, thanks
<rbasak> And to implement
<slashd> right
<slashd> so I guess we are done for today
<rbasak> Thank you for chairing slashd !
<slashd> thanks guys
<slashd> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Nov  4 19:54:42 2019 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2019/ubuntu-meeting.2019-11-04-18.59.moin.txt
<slashd> \o
<vorlon> rbasak, slashd sorry if this wasn't clear, but from my side it was implied that this is "community flavors", i.e. not those backed by Canonical and defined to be in main
<rbasak> vorlon: thanks. Is there a list somewhere I can use?
<rbasak> A superset would be fine
<rbasak> Would going from the list of seed repositories work for example?
<vorlon> rbasak: yes, the list of seed repositories would work
<rbasak> OK thanks
#ubuntu-meeting 2019-11-05
<joeubuntu> hey all.
<didrocks> hey joeubuntu
<doko> hi
<doko> jamespage is away, cpaelzer probably too
<doko> cyphermox, online?
<doko> 1816548, priority set to high today
<didrocks> I guess seb is looking at the bugs anyway and it's on him to answer
<cyphermox> I'm here
<cyphermox> is 1816548 the only bug on agenda?
<doko> I don't see any new ones
<cyphermox> ok
<doko> joeubuntu: what's on the security review list?
<didrocks> yeah, similar
<doko> who wants to file MIR templates?
<doko> https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/component-mismatches-proposed.svg
<joeubuntu> doko we have libheif , zsys runc, containerd, pmdk, gpsd  and openjpeg2
<joeubuntu> we are also meeting 2x a month internally  with server and foundations to make sure we get everything in for 20.04.
<doko> well, libheif was on the list for 19.10 too
<joeubuntu> doko but it was indicated to security by foundations that it was not needed for 19.10 until days before 19.10 was released.
<doko> yes, and I had to revert that change in the archive again, because it was blocking migrations
<joeubuntu> OK so your point is ?
<doko> I don't see progress, given that it's on top of the queue
<doko> anyway, nobody wanting to file the MIR templates? then I'll do it
<joeubuntu> It is being worked on by the team. The progress is reviewed with server and foundations every two weeks.
<doko> anything else?
<doko> then lets finish that, bye!
<didrocks> thx
#ubuntu-meeting 2019-11-07
<rbalint> o/
<sil2100> o/
<waveform> o/
<bdmurray> o/
<bdmurray> #startmeeting Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Nov  7 16:02:31 2019 UTC.  The chair is bdmurray. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic:
<bdmurray> #topic Lightning rounds
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: Lightning rounds
<bdmurray> doko tdaitx sil2100 waveform mwhudson juliank vorlon xnox cyphermox bdmurray infinity rbalint
<bdmurray> doko: ?
<doko> - Python 3.8 addition
<doko> - python3.8 sru for bionic, disco, eoan
<doko> - python3.6/python3.7 sru's for bionic
<doko> - some -proposed migration work unrelated to python
<doko> - wrote some Python 3.8 (debian wiki), Python emails ...
<doko> - preparing GCC 7.5.0 for bionic, uploaded to focal
<doko> - preparing python 2.7.19 for bionic
<doko> - preparing another four test rebuilds
<doko> - some phone calls
<doko> (done)
<bdmurray> tdaitx:
<tdaitx> * whoopsie and apport regressions (LP: #1850608, LP: #1850929)
<tdaitx>   - some reviews with the security team
<tdaitx>   - re-evaluated & tested code paths to make sure everything was covered
<tdaitx>   - looked at newer bson library
<tdaitx>  * fixing dask
<tdaitx>  * verified initramfs-tools LP: #1831252
<ubottu> Error: Launchpad bug 1850608 could not be found
<tdaitx> (done)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1850929 in apport (Ubuntu) "python3-apport regression: missing argument in Report.add_proc_environ call" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1850929
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1831252 in initramfs-tools (Ubuntu Eoan) "panic=-1 is completely ignored by the initrd causing unexpected behaviour" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1831252
<waveform> * Reviewed nitrogen6x MPs
<waveform> * Working on bionic SRU of Pi 4 support
<waveform> * Testing fix for LP: #1850678 on several releases; works on eoan/focal
<waveform> * Verified fixed kernel for LP: #1848790 on various pis (CMs still to go)
<waveform> * Verified fixed kernel for LP: #1848790 also fixes LP: #1848247 once fkms dtoverlay is removed (working on a u-boot-rpi update for this migration)
<waveform> * Working on pi hardware configuration tool
<waveform> (done)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1850678 in flash-kernel (Ubuntu) "flash-kernel only updates the dtb of the Pi it's on" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1850678
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1848790 in linux-raspi2 (Ubuntu Eoan) "USB not working under arm64 on Pi4" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1848790
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1848247 in linux-firmware-raspi2 (Ubuntu Eoan) "3A+ boot failure on Eoan" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1848247
<sil2100> Hey!
<sil2100> You skipped me waveform !
<waveform> sil2100, apologies! :)
<sil2100> ;)
<sil2100> I'll go now instead
<bdmurray> Punishment will be great
<sil2100> - SRU reviews and releases
<sil2100> - DMB meeting
<sil2100> - Reviewing the big kernel-routing merge from Andy for ubuntu-archive-tools
<sil2100> - Documenting re-running autopkgtests against release versions on the wiki
<sil2100> - Releasing the no-change gcc-5 security rebuild for xenial
<sil2100> - Phasing out new core18
<sil2100> - Backporting ubuntu-release-upgrader SRU to bionic+xenial
<sil2100> - Started verifying u-r-u, found some edge cases missing, re-uploaded to the queues
<sil2100> - Reviewed and sponsored some livecd-rootfs changes for CPC hyper-V image gallery
<sil2100> - Fixing latest uc20 ubuntu-image changes, fixing boot handling for system-seed partitions
<sil2100> - Helping out Kyle with some device enablement questions
<sil2100> - Re-writing the imx6 gadget tree to work with our build system
<sil2100> - Verifying livecd-rootfs fixes for xenial and bionic with Dave's help
<sil2100> - Some meetings
<sil2100> (done)
<xnox> Finished prep for customer meeting & slides, and spend most of todayâs afternoon presenting it and answering questions. It went well.
<xnox> Finished subiquity/curtin multipath spec
<xnox> Did roadmap reviews with bdmurray et.al. for foundations / server
<xnox> Lots of UC20 image building fun, on all fronts: gadget, launchpad, ubuntu-image lots of things in progress there
<xnox> Sheparded django to migrate not touching it again
<xnox> Klibc issue is closed and dusted, with patches merged upstream and infinity cherrypicked those all back into distro SRU now
<xnox> Working with server team with steps forward to fix growpart races in https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1834875
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1834875 in cloud-init "cloud-init growpart race with udev" [Medium,Incomplete]
<xnox> HR trainings started, packing for Vancouver
<xnox> Continued work on the germinate foreign arch support branch, now passes existing tests! Needs more new tests though.
<xnox> In vancouver next week
<xnox> (done)
<infinity> cyphermox is out.
<bdmurray> he emailed status
<tdaitx> should we copy&paste it here?
<bdmurray> tdaitx: please but lets hear from vorlong first
<vorlon>  * unstuck the ffmpeg + nettle transitions
<vorlon>  * unstuck the octave transition
<vorlon>  * merges
<vorlon>  * python2 removals
<vorlon> (done)
<tdaitx> - landing TPM + Windows chainloading fixes for focal, eoan (LP:
<tdaitx> #1848892)  (LP: #1845289)
<tdaitx> - uploaded SRUs for unicode-data (bionic and disco)
<tdaitx> - reviewed shim for Oracle, SLES, CentOS
<tdaitx> - finding a reviewing for our shim, opened RT for sending to Microsoft
<tdaitx> for signing
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1845289 in grub2 (Ubuntu Eoan) "Grub EFI amd64 no longer start EFI/Microsoft/Boot/bootmgfw.efi" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1845289
<tdaitx> - discussed block size PR / calculations done in probert for disk size
<tdaitx> w/ large disks
<tdaitx> - NetworkManager netplan plugin work
<tdaitx> ^ status from cyphermox
<bdmurray> ^- thats cyphermox
<tdaitx> done
<bdmurray> shocked to discover that there was no dist-upgrader tarball for focal
<bdmurray> sru-review of ubuntu-release-upgrader for LP: #1850851
<bdmurray> added focal to meta-release-development, m-r-lts-development
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1850851 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu Eoan) "[SRU] ubuntu-release-upgrader no longer produces tarballs" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1850851
<bdmurray> sru-verified u-r-u bug LP: #1825655
<bdmurray> update meta-release for dist-upgrader in eoan-proposed then eoan-updates
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1825655 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu Eoan) "do-release-upgrade fails with "Your python3 install is corrupted" if /usr/bin/python points to /etc/alternatives/python" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1825655
<bdmurray> modified daisy to accept crashes from amd64 19.10 which previously failed to retrace
<bdmurray> road map work
<bdmurray> more meetings than you've got meetings
<bdmurray> infinity:
<infinity>  - working on backlog of glibc stuff.
<infinity>  - uploaded klibc SRU after back and forth with upstream.
<infinity>  - general SRU and AA stuff.
<infinity>  - fixed ubuntu-release-upgraders tarballs.
<infinity>  - worked with LP folks to verify kernel SRU affecting glibc on ARM.
<infinity> (done)
<rbalint> (short week)
<rbalint> * proposed-migration fixes: rtags, pyhamcrest
<rbalint> * SRU verifications: wslu
<rbalint> * wsl bug gardening
<rbalint> (done)
<bdmurray> #topic Release incoming bugs
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: Release incoming bugs
<bdmurray> link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-ff-incoming-bug-tasks.html
<bdmurray> bug 1851499
<ubottu> bug 1851499 in lz4 (Ubuntu) "lz4 SIGSEGV in LZ4_decompress_generic" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1851499
<bdmurray> Apparently julian thinks we should work on this
<infinity> Should we pass it by the security team for an audit to see if it's a security issue?
<infinity> Crashing on invalid input always smells possibly exploitable.
<juliank> +1
<bdmurray> Okay, can somebody ping the guarder of the van in their channel?
<infinity> Cando.
<bdmurray> and I'll card it
<bdmurray> bug 1848856
<ubottu> bug 1848856 in grub2 (Ubuntu) "Upgrade from 19.04 to 19.10 with zfs on root fails with grub syntax error" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1848856
<xnox> +1 on what infinity said
<xnox> infinity:  should we private security it?
<infinity> No.
<bdmurray> it'd still be archived
<xnox> ah, didims
<infinity> It's not private if the fix is upstream.
<infinity> xnox: "diddums"
<vorlon> duodenums
<infinity> duodiddum
<infinity> s
<bdmurray> It looks like didrocks is talking to the people in bug 1848856 so lets leave it with him
<ubottu> bug 1848856 in grub2 (Ubuntu) "Upgrade from 19.04 to 19.10 with zfs on root fails with grub syntax error" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1848856
<xnox> does it not start with a silent 'k'?
<bdmurray> nothing new in rls-ee
<bdmurray> although what is the status of bug 1848211?
<ubottu> bug 1848211 in valgrind (Ubuntu Focal) "valgrind fails to use debug symbols from glib/gtk" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1848211
<bdmurray> it seems stalled upstream too
<bdmurray> Is there anyway we could get that moving?
<tdaitx> did anyone notice that the income bug tasks html has a bug? It spells "Åukasz Zemczak" as "ukasz Zemczak"
<bdmurray> tdaitx: sssh
<sil2100> oh no, my fancy L
<tdaitx> should I have said feature?
<bdmurray> it's been broken forever
<infinity> sil2100: Don't you mean your fancy W?
<sil2100> infinity: I guess it's a bit of both, looking like a fancy L but sounding like a fancy W
<bdmurray> I don't think see any other bugs worth discussing
<xnox> rbalint:  is the valgrind issue the same as WSL one?!
<bdmurray> â½
<xnox> rbalint:  the one from yesterday? about the linker
<xnox> and the offset pointing beyond end of file blah balh
<infinity> xnox: â¸â½
<rbalint> xnox, it seems similar, may be with the same root cause!
<bdmurray> What wsl issue is this?
<rbalint> bdmurray, https://github.com/microsoft/WSL/issues/4461
 * xnox the new systemd group chat name is Â«pÉ¯ÇÊsÊsÂ»
<rbalint> LP: #1843479
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1843479 in gzip (Ubuntu) "gzip in Ubuntu Eoan results in Exec format error on WSL1" [High,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1843479
<rbalint> +1 for picking the valgrind card, too
<bdmurray> rbalint: What do you mean "picking"?
<xnox> bdmurray:  i think he means trying valgrind against rebuilds as suggested to try with WSL issue.
<rbalint> bdmurray, i think it is in incoming
<rbalint> i meant handling it as rls-ff-tracked
<bdmurray> okay, I'll card it and move it into Committed in case people can pick up more
<bdmurray> #topic Team proposed-migration report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: Team proposed-migration report
<bdmurray> rbalint: Can you update the valgrind bug with info about the WSL ideas?
<bdmurray> #link http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/proposed-migration/update_excuses_by_team.html#foundations-bugs
<bdmurray> vorlon: Can you lead this bit?
<bdmurray> doko: ^
<vorlon> no, have a meeting conflict in a minute, sorry
<doko> ok, any volunteers for picks?
<doko> python-oslo.utils is looked by the openstack team
<bdmurray> I thought somebody was looking at dask
<bdmurray> tdaitx: Right?
<tdaitx> bdmurray: I am
<bdmurray> so then gyoto is next
<doko> I'll take that
<bdmurray> i3pystatus?
<waveform> that's mine still
<bdmurray> cool
<bdmurray> paraview?
<doko> python-blosc, was jjust uploaded, I'll retrigger
<sil2100> pygame is mine if anything, but didn't look at it yet
<bdmurray> I've some time tomorrow so will try and look at paraview
<bdmurray> pyatspi?
<doko> that's also desktop owned ;)
<bdmurray> rbalint: do you have one? maybe python-motor?
<rbalint> just uploaded twisted through Debian
<rbalint> bdmurray, sure i take motor
<bdmurray> alright anybody else need one?
<bdmurray> Okay let's use that as a start
<bdmurray> #topic AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: AOB
<bdmurray> cyphermox is out for a few days
<bdmurray> some of us are heading to vancouver this weekend
<bdmurray> Anything else worth mentioning?
<bdmurray> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Nov  7 16:40:48 2019 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2019/ubuntu-meeting.2019-11-07-16.02.moin.txt
<sil2100> o/
 * tdaitx afk | lunch
