#ubuntu-manual 2010-01-08
<vish> !logs
<vish> ah , we dont have ubottu but only log bot :)
<wolter> hi all again
<wolter> jmburgess, are you around?
<wolter> Yesterday I sent an email to the list but I don't really know if it got spread by the server
<pererik87atyoutu> i got quite a few email yesterday
<wolter> pererik87atyoutu, would you know if any of those emails comes from my behalf?
<jussi01> If you guys need an ubottu clone you can ask in #ubuntu-irc
<vish> jussi01: sure , I'll mention it to others...[not sure it is needed here though] i was just too used to the other rooms and missed the bot ;)
<wolter> ok, ill do
<wolter> Ok, I formerly asked for a bot
<wolter> they won't give it to me.. I'm going to start breaking faces
<wolter> jk, but yeah, I just did.. so don't worry
<ip3t3r_> si puÃ² parlare in italiano?
<wolter> non
<ip3t3r_> non cosa?
<ip3t3r_> si o no?
<wolter> no
<wolter> ingles aqui
<wolter> anglais
<ip3t3r_> sorry..
<wolter> nous parle anglais
<wolter> we talk english :)
<ip3t3r_> ok guy.. i just would know how ca i help writing this guide
<wolter> ip3t3r_, you could write an italian translation
<wolter> that would be good
<wolter> you want to start off by joining the launchpad team
<wolter> http://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-manual i think
<wolter> correct
<wolter> join team, and then in the blueprints section you can see the undone jobs
<ip3t3r_> in this space what do you speak bout?.. (sorry for my bad english)
<wolter> if you have art, you could help me perfectionate the titlepage
<ip3t3r_> *about
<wolter> channel you mean... we speak about everything concerning the project
<wolter> is like a general purpose channel for the project
<wolter> ip3t3r_, what would you like to help in, and how did you find out about thids?
<wolter> this*
<ip3t3r_> channel..yes it's the correct world... :)
<wolter> just spreading the knowledge :)
<wolter> ip3t3r_, maybe you want to check this page out too https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual#Contributions
<ip3t3r_> i don't understand properly.. i'm as the iron when it began red....
<wolter> ip3t3r_, are you mad? sorry if i didn't understand your metaphor
<wolter> anyway, how can I help you understand better ip3t3r_
<wolter> ?
<ip3t3r_> probably i need to an englsh leanguege course
<ip3t3r_> language
<ip3t3r_> ..... don't you thing so?
<ip3t3r_> *think
<ip3t3r_> ...
<wolter> ip3t3r_, sorry, I was away.. do you mean like, english classes?
<wolter> well, as you may know by now, we don't give english language courses here ;)
<wolter> ip3t3r_, but really, how do you want to help?
<ip3t3r_> i'd like to write an italian translation if it's ok...
<ip3t3r_> now i have to go
<ip3t3r_> bye
<ip3t3r_> thanks to the english lesson ;)
<sebsebseb> hi
<wolter> hi sebsebseb
<wolter> how are you doing?
<wolter> hey dutchie i am concerned that the latest revision is not building
<sebsebseb> wolter: yeah ok,  and looks like this channel is being publically logged now
<wolter> this is happening since revision 55 i think
<wolter> sebsebseb, how so?
<wolter> oh
<wolter> ubuntulog,
<sebsebseb> yes
<wolter> yeah, I was requesting a bot earlier
<wolter> at #ubuntu-iirc
<wolter> and they said I could just get a clone of ubottu at some site
<dutchie> wolter: what's it saying?
<wolter> just go to #ubuntu-irc and say !botclone
<sebsebseb> wolter: yeah not sure, but I think ubottu is only meant to really be used in the main channels
<wolter> dutchie, that file titlesec.sty is missing
<sebsebseb> I notice jussi01 and  jpds  are in here as well now, hello
<wolter> yeah
<wolter> we can name it differently though, if that was the problem
<wolter> you know them?
<dutchie> wolter: install texlive-latex-extra
<sebsebseb> wolter: not really,  I know they are Ubuntu ops though
<sebsebseb> wolter: how's the art work coming along?
<jussi01> Have you guys thought of collaborating with the writers of the ubuntu book? or other publications?
<sebsebseb> jussi01: humphreybc started the project, but he isn't here right now,  I only found out about it the other night, and then told wolter as well
 * jussi01 honestly cant see a need for it, but if thats what people want to put time into...
<sebsebseb> well  ideally he wants it in the ISO,  and he said that jono and jorge castro are also interested in the project
<sebsebseb> it's  going to be a free PDF
<sebsebseb> jussi01: have you been on the wiki site?
<jussi01> yes...
<sebsebseb> and if not in the ISO,  on the download page for Ubuntu at least, that's what they want
<sebsebseb> jussi01: there's been a lot of media attention as well
<sebsebseb> a lot of articles/blogs about it and such
<wolter> sebsebseb, check it out at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Screenshots
<wolter> god... why is texlive so big...
<wolter> i mean, its just text rendering, isn't it?
<sebsebseb> wolter: I saw those covers before,  I thought you might have made something new by now
<wolter> oh no
<wolter> i have not
<wolter> i certainly have not sebsebseb
<sebsebseb> wolter: I just seen I got a thing in the comments section on that page as well :) although Humphrey did say about how he would add my comment
<wolter> haha
<sebsebseb> wolter: seems it might have been edited a tiny bit,  but in that case that's pretty much what I put, well I can check my log
<wolter> yeah
<wolter> thanks for the feedback
<sebsebseb> yeah
<sebsebseb> np
<wolter> anyway, i'm off now i think
<sebsebseb> wolter: ok
<wolter> anyway, if humphrey isn't here when i come back, i'm going to break his face
<Kr0ntab> Greets
<Kr0ntab> Happy Friday
<Kr0ntab> "So... what do you have planned for the weekend?"... "Oh, I'm gonna party like it's 1999 and draft documentation!"
#ubuntu-manual 2010-01-09
<sebsebseb> Kr0ntab: It's Saturday in half of the world now. Also this channel is now publically logged, so it's best to have it mainly on topic really.
<Kr0ntab> hmm... oookay.  I don't think it was that big a deal, but no sweat.
<sebsebseb> Kr0ntab: Yeah not a big deal I guess really,  but still.  Also this will be in the second log,  since the logs seem to start and finnish using UK time.
<sebsebseb> Kr0ntab: Been doing anything for the project recently?
<Kr0ntab> Just joined up yesterday... and working on some now.
<Kr0ntab> ch 10... troubleshooting...
<sebsebseb> oh right yeah I was wondering what you were doing
<Kr0ntab> gonna do some research on the forums and lp answers sites for recent/relevent questions... and add to the list I've been working on.
<sebsebseb> recent/relivent questions aye?
<sebsebseb> well  that's daily in #ubuntu
<Kr0ntab> hehe.. yeah... but there's many questions about particular apps... and that's not necisarily something I'd call Ubuntu specific issues.  Gonna work towards pointing readers to process of elimination... and how to fix problems while avoiding common misteps.
<sebsebseb> Kr0ntab: ok well
<sebsebseb> Ubuntu Open Week stuff
<sebsebseb> now that should help you I think
<sebsebseb> some of that
<sebsebseb> Kr0ntab: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
 * humphreybc would like to tell everyone that there is now a logbot in here so our channel logs are available here: http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/
<humphreybc> have a look at this bug here please everyone: https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/+bug/504668
<humphreybc> and read what Ilya Haykinson has written about the chapter structure
<humphreybc> Please consider it and jot some feedback down on the bug report, we will probably discuss this in the brief tonight. What Ilya is proposing is a complete chapter overhaul which will affect everyone and will change the manual dramatically. I want everyone to have a say in this matter.
<humphreybc> Oh and if you're not aware of the brief, it'll start around 1100 UTC in this channel. It will be logged and I'll use MootBot to handle the meeting, just in case we need to vote on something.
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: some/all of us that were around, know about the logs already
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: check out the logs by the way, wolter wanted you etc
<humphreybc> yeah i read them already
<humphreybc> i might catch him tonight
<humphreybc> thanks
<sebsebseb> np
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: is that meeting 11am or 11pm  GMT/UTC ?
<sebsebseb> might want to add to the topic something for the logs
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: Interesting bug yeah,  one that should be sorted out properly, so indeed good idea to have a meeting about it.  Altough it seems I won't be taking part in the meeting, but that doesn't matter anyway, since I am not making the actsual manual, just providing a bit of feedback and that.
<sebsebseb> (well not really an interesting bug, but one that should be sorted out yes)
<pererik87atyoutu> might even bee gtm+X
<sebsebseb> pererik87atyoutu: what's that?
<humphreybc> it's 1100 UTC, 1100 is in 24 hour time
<humphreybc> if it was 11pm it would be 2300 UTC, but it's not.
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: ah ha yes that's what I thought 11am GMT
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: by the way wolter is probably sleeping then since his time zone, but he is doing title/cover art anyway
<humphreybc> do you know what he wanted to talk to me about?
<sebsebseb> no
<humphreybc> if he comes in ask him to email me
<humphreybc> i'll be at work today but back in time for the meeting
<humphreybc> i'll leave my computer on and online so he can leave me a PM on IRC if he wants
<humphreybc> anyway, time to cook dinner before I head off to work. talk to you later sebsebseb
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: you work on Saturday? and Sunday?
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: I  might not be here when he next comes in
<sebsebseb> (I am thinking about time zones a little bit, and no you probably don't work on a Sunday)
<pererik87atyoutu> gtm + x      11 gtm+1 = 12
<pererik87atyoutu> gtm
<pererik87atyoutu> no :P 11 gtm+1 = 10 gtm
<sebsebseb> what's gtm?
 * humphreybc works on a saturday
<pererik87atyoutu> gmt :P
<sebsebseb> pererik87atyoutu: call it gmt instead of gtm then :D   GMT/UTC
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: ok
<IlyaHaykinson> argh, the meeting is at 3am my local time :)
<nisshh> hey guys
<nisshh> just checking in before i go on holiday
<jmburgess> hey everyone
<wolter> hi humphreybc
<wolter> oh ok humphreybc I read the logs. sebsebseb told me to
<wolter> Well, I wanted to check if you received the mail I sent to the list, about chapter 9 needing a transformation because we are writting too personal
<wolter> humphreybc, we should be objective, and not subjective by saying "Oh, this application is awesome because it lets you do this fantastic stuff and such and such"
<wolter> We should instead say like "With this application you can do this and that"
<wolter> Also, hm.. I have nothing to say about the titlepage else than that I already pushed it in the branch (both mine and vish's) and so we just need somebody to write in the script to make the titlepage the titlepage. Plus, we need to setup some kind of votation some time to see which will be the titlepage, at least for now
<wolter> Hmm, and yes.. I had to download texlive-extra or something like that.. still not the 567Mb package i thought I had to download in the beginning, but about 157 Mb
<wolter> I could deal with that fine :
<wolter> )
<wolter> And um... if you get that email that I sent to the list, please read and we'll have a talk about it maybe on monday at 100 utc? (i think thats 2000 for me)
<wolter> Its that today (as of jan 9) is my birthday, so I will be having some friends coming over and taking my days away from me and from the manual, and possible on sunday too
<wolter> I don't know well, but anyway, I might be on either on sunday or morning
<wolter> monday sorry
<wolter> The only thing you need to know is that I mostly hang out on IRC from 1300 to 200 in my time zone, which is in costa rica/central america, but no, it is utc-6
<wolter> or gmt-6, same thing i think
<pererik87atyoutu> actually think i might have to reboot
<wolter> So... probably you can do the math and calculate when I am going to be online. I can talk about it anytime. Also, the meeting, if it is at 1100 utc, then it will be at 500 here, not pleasant at all as that is probably the time when my sleep is the heaviest, so.. I will not be attending. Could we change the meeting time for the next event? I would like to :) Anyway, bye and.. I hope you had fun reading all my jabber
<wolter> Good pererik87atyoutu
<wolter> And bye
<\vish> humphreybc: if you hadnt noticed it... I updated the mockup on the wiki , keeping in mind Andrew's suggestions
<humphreybc> yo
<humphreybc> back from work, how's everyone doin?
 * humphreybc is reading over the comments on bug #504668
<humphreybc> alright it's that time again
<humphreybc> who's here?
<tacantara> {raises hand}...me :)
<humphreybc> haha, one, not a bad start :P
<humphreybc> not like we have a lot to talk about anyway
<tacantara> Actually, this has been a busy week.  I was going through my GMail folders and recapping all the work on the manual this past week
<humphreybc> haha well yeah, the manual has had a tonne of progress
<humphreybc> but everything is running fairly smoothly - apart from the TOC reorganization
<humphreybc> we're well ahead of schedule
<humphreybc> well i suppose we'll give another couple of minutes for anyone else
<tacantara> We've brought on more people to assist.  I have one pending, if I can just get him to decide.  He's still on the fence about joining the team.
<humphreybc> Kr0ntab, vish, dutchie, jmburgess, IlyaHaykinson are you guys there?
<humphreybc> yep we have had an extraordinary amount of new members thanks to the media attention
<tacantara> I'm working off of the Lucid distro on my machine this morning.  Can you send the link with the bzr instructions so I can set up my sync folders?
<humphreybc> sure
<humphreybc> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Help
<humphreybc> alright i don't think many other people are here :O
<humphreybc> oh well i suppose we can go ahead and start the meeting, even though there's hardly anyone in it :P
<humphreybc> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 05:07. The chair is humphreybc.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<humphreybc> okay, tacantara (or anyone) - have you got anything you'd like to raise?
 * jmburgess is here
<tacantara> Nothing new to add.  I was concerned about the issue of CLI, as voiced during the week, but I think that topic is sufficiently addressed now.
<humphreybc> hey jmburgess
<humphreybc> okay. well how do we think the manual is going?
<humphreybc> on track for our first release?
<jmburgess> Excellent!
<jmburgess> As far as I can tell we are definitely I track
<humphreybc> haha awesome, yep I totally agree. We're miles ahead of where I originally planned. Formatting and translations already in place this early is unbelievable
<humphreybc> oh jmburgess how is image support going?
<jmburgess> I have a few more formatting things I need to do, but people seem to really be writing, the issue is this new ToC rewrite
<humphreybc> yeah I think that's all we have to discuss really
<humphreybc> well
<humphreybc> did you read the new bug comment I just added about 10 minutes ago?
<jmburgess> humphreybc: I have been working on getting like warning,notes,code boxes working, so I haven't touched images yet, but they will work its not too bad
<humphreybc> jmburgess: oh neat!
<jmburgess> humphreybc: nope, I will go do that I just woke up (its 6:00am here)
<humphreybc> haha damn sorry to wake you up so early
<jmburgess> haha its fine
<humphreybc> (Saturday is a pretty average day, btw)
<humphreybc> :P
<humphreybc> it's midnight here, just rolled over to sunday
<humphreybc> anyway, yeah have a read of that comment
 * jmburgess reads
<humphreybc> tacantara: what chapter are you working on?
<tacantara> I'm not assigned any chapters.  I'm on the edit team, proofreading and such.
<humphreybc> ah okay gotcha
<humphreybc> while we're waiting, maybe tacantara you can have a look at the title page proposals
<humphreybc> and give us your feedback, preferably as a wiki comment on that page
<jmburgess> alright, so I saw Wolter's comment and I don't like his naming because while it is cute and fun, it is not very useful sa to what the chapters do
<tacantara> That should be easy enough.  I just got the folders downloaded via bzr
<humphreybc> jmburgess: did you read the end of his comment?
<jmburgess> As for your comment, I think 1-6 definitely should be beginner (from your list)
<jmburgess> humphreybc: woops, didn't read the last sentence
<humphreybc> hehe
<jmburgess> and then 7-10 are in advanced, now do we want to add an advanced chapter on something new?
<humphreybc> such as?
<jmburgess> not sure still thinking
<jmburgess> i mean if you want to sort of balance things out
<humphreybc> well
<humphreybc> i wasn't thinking of extra content
<humphreybc> just changing the positions of the content
<humphreybc> although Ilya had a good point about the "Getting online" chapter
<humphreybc> we were sort of missing detail on that
<jmburgess> you are probably right, this re-org is going to be pretty huge
<humphreybc> yeah i know
<humphreybc> but if we change it now we have to make sure it's right
<jmburgess> correct, now we just need to change all the blueprints around
<humphreybc> because we don't want to be farting around changing stuff all the time, especially now that more and more content is coming in
<humphreybc> and what the hell happens with the translation rearrangement?
<jmburgess> Also, we will need to contact a few of the authors cause some of these things are getting combined
<humphreybc> yeah well when we decide on something i'll email the mailing list
<jmburgess> yea
<humphreybc> but translations are going to be screwed
<jmburgess> hmmmmm I don't know enough about how the translations work, but yeah the template stuff is going to be all kinds of messed up
<jmburgess> I mean the strings are the same, just in different places
<humphreybc> ya
<humphreybc> well we haven't decided on the new arrangement yet
<jmburgess> correct, but
<humphreybc> we do need a change
<jmburgess> I think if we do we need to lock it in
<humphreybc> precisely
<humphreybc> so we need to make a wise decision here
<humphreybc> no point rushing in and then realising we need to change it in two weeks again
<jmburgess> with only 2 people
<humphreybc> lol yea
<humphreybc> do we need to call a meeting for this?
<humphreybc> or do you think we can handle it on the bug report and mailing list
<jmburgess> right so do you want to just go chapter by chapter and list what should be in it now, or have a new meeting
<jmburgess> you beat me to it
<jmburgess> ummmm
<humphreybc> haha
<humphreybc> meetings are proving difficult
<jmburgess> I feel like we won't be able to get enough people
<humphreybc> we have this huge discrepancy in time
<jmburgess> and I don't want any more content to be written in the wrong place
<humphreybc> yeah, so maybe bug report for now. we should be able to come to a conclusion on that
<humphreybc> well it's going to be a pain to change it, regardless of how much content we have. It'll just be a bit more to copy and paste, no?
<jmburgess> right, do we want to go chapter by chapter now and just figure out what will need to get combined/moved if we go with the list you give on the latest comment
<jmburgess> right, but its still more stuff
<humphreybc> you mean here in the meeting?
<humphreybc> or on the chapter blueprints
<humphreybc> what do you think of my proposal on the latest comment?
<jmburgess> yeah and then just post it to the bug, and make sure everyone is ok with it
<humphreybc> sure. we should make everyone read this log.
<humphreybc> :)
<jmburgess> haha
<jmburgess> but yeah I think your latest comment make sense
<jmburgess> alright
<humphreybc> well we have to make sure we check all the boxes. We can't release the manual with a whole section on something missing that we've all forgotten. and i'm not a superhuman so i'm not sure if i've got everything in my proposal
<humphreybc> okay so we'll go over the chapters now i think. and I'll summarize in a new bug comment
<humphreybc> (and advise they read the logs)
<humphreybc> tacantara: feel free to join in and have your say
<jmburgess> wait hold on do you have a chapter on important ubuntu apps such as ryhtmbox, etc..
<humphreybc> no I took out the chapter Ilya proposed about going through every default app
<tacantara> Just looked at title page, found it to be very professional.  We're definitely putting a good first image out there.
<humphreybc> I figured we can include the IMPORTANT ones under chapter 2
<jmburgess> Ok well we need to say that, cause we can't forget things like rhythm box
<humphreybc> so a section/subsection to chapter 2 can very briefly touch on stuff like ryhthmbox, firefox, openoffice, F-Spot etc
<jmburgess> well note firefox, that is ch. 3
<jmburgess> but yes
<humphreybc> yeah but do we need to teach people how to use these apps? i mean we have to stick to our niche here, and we don't want to make it an all encompassing manual
<jmburgess> I think we need a paragraph on it
<humphreybc> a paragraph on each?
<jmburgess> not on every app just like
<jmburgess> openoffice
<jmburgess> fspot
<humphreybc> but how much detail? "Press play to play your music. Press Pause to pause your music"
<tacantara> Good point.  Talking about Rhythmbox can become a very detailed area, if you go into iPod syncing (another noob concern)
<jmburgess> rhythmbox
<humphreybc> okay
<dutchie> why don't we say "Open Rhythmbox to manage your music, or buy more music from the Ubuntu One Music Store"?
<jmburgess> No I mean like Rhytmbox is an excellent media player here is how to import your music and here is a screenshot, and here is the wiki link to mor info
<humphreybc> so more like a paragraph: "Use Rhythmbox to listen to your music, sync with your portable media player. Use F-Spot to manage and edit photos" etc
<dutchie> yeah, something like that
<humphreybc> hello dutchie
<dutchie> so they know which app to use for what
<humphreybc> nice of you to join us :)
<dutchie> morning
<jmburgess> just enough to like get them started so they can play with it
<dutchie> only just got up
<humphreybc> although the install slideshow gives some detail on which app to use for what
<humphreybc> and the menu is split into categories. how hard can it be? :P
<humphreybc> okay fair enough
<jmburgess> hey dutchie, since you know about translations do you know if everything will be messed up if we do all this chapter rearranging?
<dutchie> don't think so
<jmburgess> yeah I think a simple paragraph to help them import stuff, and then a link to the wiki page is good enough
<humphreybc> alright so let's go back to the beginning. Prologue and About Ubuntu: basically includes chapter 1 and chapter 2 as they are now. nothing extra. right?
<dutchie> it should keep all the translations that have already been done if I understand it correctly
<humphreybc> dutchie: let's hope so
<jmburgess> humphreybc: correct
<humphreybc> oh does someone want to jot down notes on each chapter?
<humphreybc> (for the bug comment)
<jmburgess> So Ch 1 & 2 => prolgouge
<jmburgess> im doin it
<humphreybc> awesome xD
<jmburgess> alright chapter 1 of the new ToC is chapter 3 of the old ToC
<humphreybc> okay installation, basically chapter 3. sections underneath it include what's already in chapter 3, live CD, partitioning etc. Although - "What version to choose" should go to chapter 10. We need to assume they've already got Ubuntu if they're reading this.
<humphreybc> well almost, with some exceptions like i said above
<jmburgess> right
<humphreybc> happy with that everyone?
<dutchie> very good
<tacantara> That works
<humphreybc> info on the LiveCD and a detailed step by step install guide. Easy.
<humphreybc> So that's chapter 1 of the new ToC. Chapter 2 is going to have a lot of sections.
<jmburgess> Chapter 2 is the gnome environment part of ch. 4, plus information on some basic applications
<humphreybc> and I propose we rename it to something with GNOME in it
<humphreybc> because, well, it is GNOME.
<jmburgess> and those applications are rhytnbox, opeoffice, fspot, tomboy?, anything else?
<dutchie> firefox
<jmburgess> I think it should be introduction to Ubuntu because we are going to cover a few apps
<humphreybc> uhm... what else comes default... nautilus?
<humphreybc> oh true
<jmburgess> dutchie: firefox will be in ch. 3 (internet)
<dutchie> might be worth mentioning chromium if that's going to be the default browser in UNR
<humphreybc> yeah forgot about that
<jmburgess> dutchie: Is it really?
<jmburgess> ugh
<dutchie> Ubuntu One will merit at least a paragraph
<jmburgess> correct
<tacantara> Empathy is a default app
<humphreybc> dutchie: hmm.... we don't want to go talking about different distros here. as far as I'm concerned UNR is a different distro to Ubuntu
<humphreybc> oh yeah empathy
<jmburgess> goes in the internet section
<dutchie> I was about to say that
<humphreybc> so Rythmbox, OpenOffice, Tomboy, F-Spot, Empathy and Ubuntu One. Firefox is going to the internet chapter.
<humphreybc> oh
<humphreybc> yeah
<humphreybc> okay so empathy in the internet chapter too
<jmburgess> sounds good
<dutchie> PiTiVi?
<humphreybc> oh shite
<humphreybc> yeah Pitivi
<humphreybc> and nautilus
<humphreybc> darn
<tacantara> How about Brasero and Movie Player?
<humphreybc> crap
<humphreybc> too many default apps!
<dutchie> there's quite a lot :)
<humphreybc> darn you ubuntu for being so good!
<jmburgess> Pitivi I feel like is out of the scope of this manual
<dutchie> I don't think we need to cover them all
<humphreybc> hmm
<humphreybc> core 5?
<jmburgess> like we can say, browse around the menus to see other apps
<dutchie> just things used in sort of day-to-day running
<dutchie> maybe not even F-Spot
<humphreybc> photos, videos, music, navigation
<humphreybc> and then internet in the other chapter
<dutchie> we could have a "Multimedia" chapter
<humphreybc> well, section under chapter 2 of the new ToC
<humphreybc> although
<humphreybc> it does kinda warrant it's own chapter
<humphreybc> maybe we need 11 chapters
<humphreybc> or even turn 10 into an "afterthought" or something
<dutchie> especially if we start mentioning codecs and whatnot
<humphreybc> a "postlogue" :P
<dutchie> epilogue
<humphreybc> okay there you go
<dutchie> probably appendix
<jmburgess> Do we want a media chapter that contains rhytmbox, f-spot, pitivi
<humphreybc> don't forget we've still got the credits and glossary to pile on here
<jmburgess> a internet chapter that has evolution, firefox, empathy
<tacantara> If we subsection Chapter 2 to cover default apps, it'd be logical to follow the format of the Applications menu, perhaps pointing out key apps only
<humphreybc> well we're talking so many default apps here they might warrant their own chapter
<humphreybc> at least for the multimedia ones
<dutchie> I'm not sure if "OMG, it's got 15 chapters" is a valid concern
<dutchie> people are more likely to look at the page count IMO
<jmburgess> Why don't we have an Apps chapter insted of just inernet apps, and talk about all the keys apps
<jmburgess> like we don't need a tutorial on firefox or on evolution
<humphreybc> so Applications after chapter 2
<humphreybc> make it chapter 3
<jmburgess> we just need a paragraph, screenshot and a link to the wiki page
<humphreybc> push everything down a number, make chapter 10 an epilogue. or even just chapter 11.
<jmburgess> so wait
<jmburgess> Ch 2 is titled.....
<humphreybc> but then we're talking about applications twice in the manual... but i suppose they're important..... ;)
<jmburgess> im sorry im confused
<dutchie> that's something to avoid I think humphreybc
 * humphreybc wonders if other project meetings go for so long
<humphreybc> um
 * jmburgess hopes they wont
<humphreybc> hmm
<humphreybc> well
<humphreybc> we have a problem
<humphreybc> Do we talk about the core apps AND extra apps later on
<humphreybc> do we only talk about core apps
<humphreybc> and not mention extra apps at all?
<jmburgess> I think core apps only
<dutchie> core apps only
<humphreybc> or do we not talk about core apps and just let them freestyle
<dutchie> we should *mention* core apps
<humphreybc> how about we don't talk about core apps, but include that list of extra apps as a list.
<jmburgess> Why don't we have a getting around Ubuntu chapter which covers nautilus stuff, and gnome stuff
<tacantara> I think it'd be worthwhile to discuss the core apps, to the extent that we say "here they are."
<humphreybc> wait
<humphreybc> we don't talk about extra apps ***
<humphreybc> well core apps are more important to a newbie than extra ones, right?
<jmburgess> and then have a Applications chapter and say a little paragraph or two about them
<humphreybc> so they should have a higher priority
<jmburgess> i think Ch. 3 should just be titled Applications
<dutchie> we could direct them to the B-Sides project for extra apps
<humphreybc> dutchie true
<tacantara> From a noob perspective, the extra apps come in as a need is discovered (i.e. how can I scan this document)
<humphreybc> although, why don't we just include that list simply as a list
<humphreybc> in chapter 10
<dutchie> hang on, how does the proposed ToC look now?
<humphreybc> the extra apps list.. cheese etc
<humphreybc> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/+bug/504668
<humphreybc> last comment by me
<dutchie> OK, thakns
<jmburgess> I think Ch. 3 should not be internet it should be applications
<humphreybc> so we rename "Internet, Emails and IM" to "Applications" and include info on about 8 default apps.
<jmburgess> correct
<dutchie> is there a reason there is no chapter 9 in that list?
<humphreybc> and then "Extra Applications" becomes just a simple bullet point list that we recommend, instead of a summary/feature list and screenshot (as chapter 9 stands now)
<humphreybc> dutchie: ^^
<jmburgess> correct
<humphreybc> just to give the readers an idea about good software
<humphreybc> instead of having to google "top 10 ubuntu apps" or something'
<humphreybc> or trial and error install every single music player to find a decent one
<humphreybc> (and there are a LOT of music players in the repos)
<humphreybc> okay cool Joe are you getting all this down?
<humphreybc> well not all this
<humphreybc> but the important bits on each chapter and what it includes
<jmburgess> yeah
<jmburgess> so the 8 apps are
<jmburgess> openoffice
<jmburgess> rhythmbox
<jmburgess> tomboy
<jmburgess> f-spot
<jmburgess> empathy
<jmburgess> evolution
<jmburgess> firefox
<jmburgess> and...
<humphreybc> and.... nautlius
<humphreybc> nautilus*
<jmburgess> i thought naitulus would be in getting around ubuntu
<humphreybc> oh okay
<humphreybc> well
<humphreybc> in that case... move player?
<jmburgess> cause nautilus doesn't look like a seperate app
<humphreybc> (totem)
<humphreybc> how about 7 apps then
<jmburgess> sounds good
<humphreybc> movie player is higher priority than pitivi - people will want to watch movies before they want to edit them
<jmburgess> ok then I will include totem
<humphreybc> so either 7 or 8 if we include movie player
<humphreybc> ok swet
<humphreybc> sweet*
<jmburgess> do any of the current chapters overlap with this chapter
<humphreybc> now chapter 4, "Settings and external devices"
<humphreybc> i don't think so
<jmburgess> alright
<jmburgess> chaper 4
<humphreybc> we don't have synaptic, software center, or terminal in our list of apps
<humphreybc> you guys talk about that for a sec while i pop off to the loo
<jmburgess> humphreybc: those go in 5
<jmburgess> chapter 4 should include
<jmburgess> setting up a printer
<jmburgess> configuring display
<jmburgess> appearance
<humphreybc> theming
<tacantara> Refresh my memory please....is the subject of "Ubuntu Restricted Extras" touched on in Chapter 3?  That's a useful bit for Firefox (flash) and the media players
<jmburgess> screensaver/wallpaper
<humphreybc> desktop effects?
<humphreybc> oh crud restricted extras
<humphreybc> where do we put that?
<jmburgess> Users
<jmburgess> I think in the firefox section, mention flash
<tacantara> Restricted extras is one of those things that always throws noobs for a loop.  Been there myself.
<dutchie> as a side note
<humphreybc> side note in chapter 2?
<dutchie> (like those, well done jmburgess)
<humphreybc> or 4?
<dutchie> 3
<humphreybc> okay
<humphreybc> so side note beside firefox
<dutchie> next to whichever of firefox, rhythmbox or totem that comes up first
<jmburgess> yep
<humphreybc> "to enable more stuffs you need to install ubuntu restricted extras"
<jmburgess> we forgot ubuntu one in applications
<jmburgess> do we want it?
<humphreybc> crud
<humphreybc> we probably should
<jmburgess> alright its in
<humphreybc> especially with the emphasis on "social from the start" in lucid
<humphreybc> and hows abouts this new "MeMenu" in Lucid?
<jmburgess> does the new ch. 4 come from any other chapter?
<humphreybc> worryingly, i don't think so
<humphreybc> we completely forgot to tell them about the settings menu
<humphreybc> sorry, "system" menu
<jmburgess> so at this point I feel like we are going to have to delete some of the old chapters, which might be bad
<humphreybc> Oo
<humphreybc> such as?
<jmburgess> some of ch 5
<jmburgess> all of ch 9
<humphreybc> damn i wish we decided on this last weekend at our first meeting. man it's only been a week since the initial meeting, and we've achieved so much
<humphreybc> all of ch 9 is no worries.
<humphreybc> who's on 5?
<jmburgess> Deon Spengler
<jmburgess> has he done anything?
<humphreybc> not sure
<humphreybc> is there content in chapter 5?
<humphreybc> negatice
<humphreybc> negative*
<jmburgess> excellent!
<humphreybc> haha
<dutchie> apologies, got to dash
<humphreybc> so much for hints and tips
<jmburgess> yep
<humphreybc> okay dutchie, no worries
<humphreybc> okay cool
<humphreybc> so chapter 4 is all good, chapter 5... software center/synaptic
<humphreybc> explain the concept of packaging
<jmburgess> hold on ch. 4 I have
<jmburgess> printers
<jmburgess> users
<jmburgess> desktop effects
<jmburgess> themes
<jmburgess> wallpaper/scrensave
<jmburgess> what else?
<jmburgess> display
<humphreybc> about me?
<humphreybc> stuff like mouse etc shouldn't be too hard to find
<jmburgess> correct
<jmburgess> alright I think that is a fine list
<jmburgess> ch. 5!
<humphreybc> we can include things as notes like: "to change your mouse sensitivity, go to System > Preferences > Mouse and adjust the slider"
<jmburgess> just the old updates section of ch 6
<humphreybc> wait isn't 6 going to include updating?
<humphreybc> 5 should just be software center, intro to packages and how they work and then synaptic
<jmburgess> I think system maintence should be cleaning up, and backup
<jmburgess> ok
<jmburgess> that works
<humphreybc> then maybe we could have the list of apps from the (current) chapter 9 there too
<humphreybc> kinda like "recommended apps from the software center"
<humphreybc> although
<jmburgess> So the applications part of ch. 4
<humphreybc> i think the software center is going to have recommended apps on the front page when u open it up
<jmburgess> yep
<humphreybc> um so ch 6 will be cleaning up, backing up and updating/upgrading
<humphreybc> explain we don't have to defrag etc
<humphreybc> no viruses either :)
<humphreybc> so really ubuntu maintains most stuff for you
<humphreybc> hehe
<jmburgess> and ch. 5 is just the applications section of old ch. 4 right?
<humphreybc> yeah plus updating and upgrading from old chapter 6
<jmburgess> I thought that was going in new ch. 6
<humphreybc> oh wait
<humphreybc> my bad
<humphreybc> yes it is lol
<jmburgess> ok
<humphreybc> blah blah blah :)
<jmburgess> so Ch. 6
<jmburgess> is
<jmburgess> ...
<humphreybc> 6 is updating upgrading, and
<humphreybc> um
<humphreybc> bollocks.
<jmburgess> cleaning (using computer janitor)
<jmburgess> and backup
<jmburgess> none of those require terminal
<humphreybc> yeah but computer janitor is hideous and destroys your computer
<jmburgess> it does?
<jmburgess> I thought it just ran apt-get update
<jmburgess> sorry
<jmburgess> apt-get clean
<humphreybc> it removes stuff that you've downloaded from sites
<humphreybc> like deb packages that aren't in repos
<humphreybc> and also removes packages from custom PPAs
<humphreybc> basically
<humphreybc> probably not a huge issue for newbies tho
<jmburgess> oh wow your right
<humphreybc> but i never use it
<humphreybc> it's dangerous
<jmburgess> how about we just don't include cleaning packages
<humphreybc> they're working on it for lucid tho
<jmburgess> and whenever a proper gui for it comes out
<jmburgess> we will include it
<humphreybc> yeah should be better in lucid i believe
<humphreybc> although not sure
<jmburgess> ok
<jmburgess> so
<jmburgess> ch 6 is
<jmburgess> old ch 6
<jmburgess> minus cleaning packages
<jmburgess> plus backin up
<jmburgess> and I think I will talk about using TimeVault
<jmburgess> is that ok with everyone
<humphreybc> everyone = me
<humphreybc> me = yes
<humphreybc> lol
<tacantara> Agree
<humphreybc> i've never used time vault but it sounds cool
<humphreybc> oh tacantara you're still here xD
<humphreybc> sorry!
<jmburgess> alright
<jmburgess> Ch. 7!
<humphreybc> sweet
<jmburgess> This is where advanced starts
<humphreybc> well chapter 7 is just intro to terminal
<jmburgess> Right which is the same in the old version
<jmburgess> so
<humphreybc> so the first half of current chapter 7
<jmburgess> done
<jmburgess> yep
<humphreybc> well minus system maintenance part of 7
<humphreybc> (old 7)
<humphreybc> um
<humphreybc> security?
<humphreybc> sort of left this out
<humphreybc> system maintenance?
<jmburgess> yea
<jmburgess> I think in system maintenance
<humphreybc> it doesn't have to be long, linux is fairly secure. and ubuntu opens no ports by default
<jmburgess> correct
<humphreybc> okay add that as a section in system maintenance
<humphreybc> cool chapter 8
<humphreybc> um
<humphreybc> well same as current chapter 10
<humphreybc> i mean
<jmburgess> Also I think that we just need to put in notes throughout the manual on like only use signed packages
<humphreybc> old chapter 10
<jmburgess> etc..
<jmburgess> yep
<humphreybc> yep good idea
<humphreybc> these notes will be handy
<jmburgess> Ill make a security note as well
<jmburgess> so ch. 9?
<humphreybc> chapter nine is just old chapter 10
<jmburgess> I thought 8 was old ch. 10
<jmburgess> you skip 9 on your list btw
<humphreybc> oh crap lol
<humphreybc> yeah
<humphreybc> so 8 is old chapter 10
<humphreybc> no idea what chapter 9 will be
<humphreybc> ideas?
<jmburgess> hmmmmmmmmmm
<humphreybc> i feel like the fate of the world lies in the outcome of this rather casual meeting O.o
<jmburgess> yep
<jmburgess> haha
<humphreybc> well
<humphreybc> we could have a dedicated chapter on security
<humphreybc> or bring back our extra apps chater
<humphreybc> chapter*
<jmburgess> lets just have 9 chapters
<humphreybc> or split up new ch 3 into "multimedia apps" and "internet apps"
<jmburgess> but then where does tomboy go?
<humphreybc> or just have 9 chapters, right
<jmburgess> yea
<humphreybc> oh gawd true
<humphreybc> who uses tomboy, really
<humphreybc> haha
<jmburgess> ME!
 * jmburgess hugs is tomboy
<humphreybc> man i never make notes on my computer. if i do it's alt+F2 gedit
<humphreybc> okay 9 chapters it is for now
<humphreybc> i think that fits everything in
<humphreybc> could you pastebin your notes?
<jmburgess> ch. 9 is a completly new chapter right?
<humphreybc> well kinda
<jmburgess> right
<humphreybc> it's "Learning more about Linux and extra applications"
<humphreybc> so involves the "choosing a version" part from old chapter 3
<humphreybc> and talks about other distros
<humphreybc> and has our list of extra apss
<humphreybc> apps*
<jmburgess> sounds good
<humphreybc> probably Unix/Linux history could go in there, but nah
<humphreybc> that can go with history of Ubuntu
<jmburgess> which extra apps do we want?
<humphreybc> the stuff on the wiki list currently
<humphreybc> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/TableOfContents
<jmburgess> ok
<humphreybc> cool
<humphreybc> pitivi won't be extra tho
<humphreybc> and opera 10.5 might be better than google chrome when they release it (the alpha seems to be)
<jmburgess> http://paste.ubuntu.com/353908/
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://paste.ubuntu.com/353908/
<tacantara> The list on the wiki is good.  As users become familiar with the concept of Software Center and Synaptic, they'll know to go to those when they have a need for an app
<jmburgess> yep
<jmburgess> Does that make sense to everyone
<humphreybc> makes sense to me
<tacantara> For sure
<jmburgess> alrighty, I am going to clean that up a bit and then post it
<humphreybc> sweet
<humphreybc> mention that the extra apps list in the new ToC won't include detail
<humphreybc> it'll just be a list
<humphreybc> rename "sidebar" to note
<humphreybc> other than that sweet
<humphreybc> we'll have to see what the others say
<jmburgess> sounds good
<humphreybc> so who's going to change around all this shit under latex?
<jmburgess> haha
<jmburgess> a
 * humphreybc realises he can't swear now that it's a logged channel
<jmburgess> ouch
<jmburgess> ummm I can if you want
<humphreybc> you sure?
<humphreybc> i'll change the wiki
<humphreybc> and sort out the sections
<humphreybc> then you could use that as a guide
<humphreybc> but we can't really start yet
<humphreybc> till the rest of the team has their say on our proposal
<humphreybc> it's a democracy, after all
<jmburgess> if you do all the blueprint re doin
<humphreybc> yep
<jmburgess> ok
<humphreybc> i'll handle the blueprints and wiki
<humphreybc> when we do change over
<humphreybc> sweet
<humphreybc> anything else?
<jmburgess> nope
<humphreybc> man 1hr, 20min long meeting... supposed to be a "brief!"
<jmburgess> haha
<humphreybc> that's an ironic name for a long meeting..
<humphreybc> okay
<humphreybc> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 06:22.
<humphreybc> oh yeah and jmburgess you'll have to work out a better way to display the credits
<jmburgess> yep
<humphreybc> preferably not as another chapter
<jmburgess> my list of latex things to do is
<humphreybc> and without bullet points
<jmburgess> work on notes
<jmburgess> get images goin
<jmburgess> ToC to look pretty
<jmburgess> glossary to function (and write wiki entry on how)
<vish> hi... folks.. damn i missed the meeting  :/
<jmburgess> index to function (and write wiki entry on how)
<vish> well , i'll check logs  ;)
<jmburgess> And credits
<humphreybc> vish you sure did! no worries, check the log out
<humphreybc> index?
<jmburgess> an index in the back
<humphreybc> oh okay neat
<jmburgess> its pretty easy in latex so I figured why not
<humphreybc> how will that work? automated?
<humphreybc> sweet!
<jmburgess> I mean I think you have to choose words, but it is easy
<humphreybc> okay
<vish> humphreybc: i wanted to mention something , I noticed a lot of mails regarding terminal and commands in the manual. I didnt check out the pages actually are there several commands that users are asked to use? if so we should try and keep this to the minimul
<vish> minimum*
<jmburgess> I agree, I think the terminalshould not be mentioned until the advanced section
<vish> +1
<humphreybc> wait vish:
<humphreybc> do you mean for people working on the manual?
<vish> humphreybc: no , i mean in the actual manual contents. there is mention of codeblocks ,etc...
<humphreybc> oh right
<humphreybc> yeah that's only for chapter 7 (terminal)
<humphreybc> we are gonna avoid CLI at all costs everywhere else :)
<vish> humphreybc: try not to move that chapter out to the advanced section and an introduction before the really advanced stuff
<vish> try to move*
<humphreybc> yep we've done that
<humphreybc> check out: https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/+bug/504668
<vish> cool :)
<humphreybc> the last two comments
<humphreybc> they basically summarize what you missed in this meeting :(
<humphreybc> :) *
<vish> ;)
 * vish reads
<jmburgess> humphreybc: since you did the last one, do you want me to write the summary for this
<jmburgess> meetin
<humphreybc> sure if you want to
<jmburgess> I will
<jmburgess> I am actually going to go back to bed now
<humphreybc> just stick it here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Meetings
<humphreybc> haha fair enough mate
<jmburgess> but I will see you guys later
<humphreybc> i do not blame you!
<humphreybc> and i'm going to sleep
<humphreybc> night everyone
<vish> humphreybc: so if I'm reading the comments right. chp7 is now only an intro to terminal
<humphreybc> vish:
<humphreybc> well kinda
<humphreybc> but if you look at the old intro
<humphreybc> here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/TableOfContents
<humphreybc> you'll notice it includes quite a lot
<humphreybc> What is a terminal? Sudo in the terminal Browsing the file system Manipulating files Virtual terminals Useful commands
<humphreybc> so that should be no problem
<vish> humphreybc: is the intro really necessary? if it is to be there in the end of the intro you could just say "Dont worry you dont need terminal to really enjoy Ubuntu"
<humphreybc> leave your comments on the new proposed ToC on the bug report
<vish> humphreybc: ok.. sure
<humphreybc> haha sorry i'm going to sleep now, almost 2am here :)
<vish> humphreybc: nite  , bye
<komsas> Hello
<komsas> I found this project and now thinking to translate it in Lithuanian. I see that all writing is in early development so when is right to start translate this manual? in Alpha release?
<vish> jmburgess: ^^
<vish> komsas: i think jmburgess and other team members working actively on the manual are asleep... you just missed them by a few mins
<jmburgess> hey
<jmburgess> i was just checking irc
<jmburgess> haha
<vish> ;)
<jmburgess> komsas: now!
<jmburgess> komsas: check out https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual
<jmburgess> that should get you started
<komsas> so all string what is now written dont change in feature?
<jmburgess> they might change in the future, but they shouldn't too much
<jmburgess> if you want to wait until after the alpha release you can
<jmburgess> komsas: does that make sense?
<komsas> thanks jmburgess I think will find more Lithuanian Ubuntu user who want to contribute and after the alpha we will start
<jmburgess> excellent thank you ver much for helping
<thorwil> hi! i'm trying to join your mailing list via LP. the Subscribe link doesn't seem to work for me
<thorwil> is there a mailman interface? i note it's not listed on https://lists.ubuntu.com/
<dutchie> you should automatically be subscribed if you join the team
<dutchie> check https://help.launchpad.net/Teams/MailingLists
<thorwil> ignore me, just saw i'd need to become a member first. so it's a LP bug the Subscribe button is there nonetheless
<thorwil> ok, joined team and list
<wolter> dutchie, are you there?
<dutchie> o/
<wolter> hey, humphrey wanted to get a bot for the channel
<wolter> now i know where to get them, but I don't know if you should install it or something
<wolter> dutchie, i just know that ubottu is derived of some "supybot" or something like that, but you can get more info if you go to #ubuntu-irc and say !botclone
<dutchie> did you ask the guys in #ubuntu-irc about getting the bot in here?
<wolter> yeah
<dutchie> what did they say?
<wolter> the major guy, terrese morris or something
<wolter> said ubottu was in too many channels
<wolter> and ccouldn't handle one more
<wolter> or something like that
<dutchie> did you ask about ubot4 or ubot2?
<wolter> but he said that we could get a bot from launchpad, that supybot
<wolter> no, I did not, are they different?
<dutchie> i'll go and ask in #ubuntu-irc
<wolter> hey thorwil
<wolter> you there? I saw your titlepage proposal
<thorwil> hi wolter
<wolter> I have to say I like it, its very clean
<wolter> I have some feedback though
<thorwil> wolter: thanks, i'm listening
<wolter> I think that the lynx takes away a lot of the attention. It is very nice that it only occupies 3 colors
<wolter> But I think it would do better off as a watermark, or if it was next to the title, as you said on the mail
<wolter> Also, I think that "created by" is sort of missing from the cover
<wolter> and that that couple of texts (the credits and the manual version release) are a bit big and a bit distracting as well
<thorwil> wolter: one would have to reduce the lynx to shape or line with no eyes to have a chance of it not working like an eye magnet
<wolter> you're probably right
<wolter> you made the lynx?
<thorwil> wolter: making the text smaller is easy. might just use the internal text size as smallest
<thorwil> wolter: yes, for a t-shirt, initially
<wolter> oh, nice
<thorwil> ty!
<wolter> but i like how you aligned everything to a vertical line
<wolter> looks neat
<thorwil> that's the idea :)
<wolter> now, I do agree with what you said about the coof
<wolter> i wouldn't bash it away, but move it somewhere else
<thorwil> wolter: it's a rather loud element and must be handled very careful to not throw things off balance
<thorwil> it's easier t handle in a single color, but i kinda feel bad whenever i try that
<wolter> The cof in a single color?
<thorwil> yes
<wolter> yeah well, i think we should (all) attach our svg documents
<wolter> to fool around and get to optimal designs
<thorwil> hmm, i prefer to tweak my designs myself based on feedback. too many cooks, design by committee and all that ...
<thorwil> dinner time, bbl
<dutchie> suggestions for a nick for the bot?
<dutchie> !ping
<dutchie> hmm
<vish> dutchie: Skynet ? ;)
<dutchie> I bet that's taken
<dutchie> !ping
<dutchie> !ping
<dutchie> !ping
<dutchie> !ping
<manualbot> Here I am, brain the size of a planet and you expect me to respond to a ping? How depressing.
<dutchie> :)
<dutchie> one bot
<dutchie> bug 1
<thorwil> vish: are you currently editing the wiki?
<vish> oh.. yeah
<vish> thorwil: just used your lynx and adding the mage
<dutchie> bug 1
<vish> image*
<thorwil> vish: just saw a warning, but it saved my edit
<thorwil> vish: tell me when you're done
<vish> ah , np.. was just attaching the image
<dutchie> bug 1
<manualbot> dutchie: Error: I don't have a bugtracker .
<manualbot> dutchie: Error: I don't have a bugtracker .
<dutchie> hmm
<vish> thorwil: have you finished editing the page?
<vish> it seems locked with you
<thorwil> vish: yes, just did
 * vish  tries again
<dutchie> bug 1
<manualbot> Launchpad bug 1 in Ubuntu Jaunty "Microsoft has a majority market share" [Critical,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1
<dutchie> :)
<thorwil> wolter: added the svg source, since i provided vish with the lynx already, anyway :)
<dutchie> right, that should do for now
<dutchie> any more suggestions about the bot?
<vish> thorwil: the "Ubuntu 10.04 Operating system" is not center aligned..
<thorwil> vish: what do you think it is supposed to be aligned with?
<vish> thorwil: hmm , the whole page seems center aligned except those two lines :(
<thorwil> vish: http://www.foopics.com/get/75a8ad05694f6eabbffc8c99c4a56a32/0
<vish> thorwil: i attached a version with your lynx
<thorwil> vish: i really wonder how you came to think aynthing would be center aligned
<vish> thorwil: oh , the "The" is out of line then ;) but if not for the lines it seems the text is center aligned
<vish> thorwil: exclude the image and note the text
<vish> thorwil: it just happens that all the text below are the same length[except the second line] , so they seem aligned together.. rather than left aligned
<vish> an unfortunate coincidence
<thorwil> true. especially the footer is too close to having the same margin to both sides
<thorwil> well, that will disappear with smaller text
<wolter> oh let me check wiki
<wolter> dutchie, i could come up with a name
<wolter> hm.. manubot?
<dutchie> well, it's manualbot now
<thorwil> vish: that's a rather brutal treatment of the lynx
<dutchie> !hello | wolter
<manualbot> wolter: Hi! Welcome to #ubuntu-manual! Feel free to ask questions and help people out. The channel guidelines are at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcGuidelines . Enjoy your stay!
<vish> hehe
<wolter> nice
<wolter> is that manual bot sounds like non-automatic bot
<vish> thorwil: you know me i suck the goodness out of everything ;p
<dutchie> heh, hadn't thought of that
<vish> dutchie: autobot ?
<wolter> lol
<vish> ;p
<wolter> decept... nah i better don't start that
<wolter> so, we have about 3 bots now
<wolter> MootBot, manualbot and ubuntulog ?
<wolter> can't manual bot do all three of functions?
<vish> nope
<dutchie> it can log, but it can't put them on logs.ubuntu.com or wherever ubuntulog puts them
<wolter> how about manuel?
<wolter> its a real name, and sounds like manual
<dutchie> ooh, I like that
<wolter> would be funny if people thought at first manuel was a human being haha
<wolter> nice =D
<wolter> oh
<dutchie> fawlty towers jokes available too
<wolter> ooh vish i like your update with lynx
<wolter> one thing though, the square cut looks very un-smooth
<wolter> how about MootBot /
<wolter> ?
<vish> wolter: i would have tried to do an outline of the lynx alone.. but i was lazy .;)
<wolter> oh hah
<wolter> I actually like how that lynx can be reduced to a 2 color pallete
<wolter> also you should finish up the ears :-\
<dutchie> bah, manuel is registered
<wolter> really?
<wolter> that *sucks*
<wolter> who has it?
<wolter> ima break their face
<dutchie> some guy actually called manuel ;)
<wolter> ahh.. as a man name
<dutchie> meh, I'll stick with manualbot
<wolter> ok
<wolter> ill think of something else anyway
<wolter> haha, how about rtfmbot
<dutchie> maybe not the best impression to give
<wolter> yeah, i know, jk
<dutchie> wolter: you didn't just register it did you?
<wolter> no haha
<dutchie> phew
<wolter> i was trying to see how to check for registered names
<wolter> but you didn't want it anyway haha
<wolter> where did the bot go?
<dutchie> offline, while I fiddle the config again
<wolter> anyway, i will keep thinking of names.. i think robomanuel would be nice
<wolter> you don't have to take the names, as you know already
<wolter> ill just be saying some names in case you want any
<dutchie> win 20
<dutchie> bah
<wolter> win 20?
<dutchie> while since I've done that
<dutchie> meant to change to irssi window 20, but missed the /
<manolo> damn
<dutchie> wolter: /msg NickServ info <nick>
<manuelette> oh
 * dutchie goes for manualbot
 * wolter knows ^_^
 * wolter just thinks manualbot is a bit boring, not that it should be funny though
<wolter> tumbot would stand for the ubuntu manual bot
 * wolter feels a "shut up" frequency coming from dutchie
<pererik87> It doesn't stand howto: New wacom tablet bamboo(pen) + karmic koala Nightmare somewhere in the manual
<wolter> pererik87, lol what?
<wolter> works out of the box
<wolter> well, bamboo fun at least
<dutchie> pererik87: the manual isn't really supposed to go into that much detail about things like that
<pererik87> first of all it does not work with the new ones. and second. i was not serious about looking for it in the manual:P
<wolter> haha
<pererik87> ctl-460 googling untill my head hurts
<wolter> i knew that
<dutchie> !ping
<manualbot> Here I am, brain the size of a planet and you expect me to respond to a ping? How depressing.
<dutchie> !ping
<manualbot> Here I am, brain the size of a planet and you expect me to respond to a ping? How depressing.
<dutchie> right, one bot all ready to go
<pererik87> !ping
<manualbot> Here I am, brain the size of a planet and you expect me to respond to a ping? How depressing.
<strubbl> cool project!
<dutchie> !quotes
<manualbot> Factoid 'quotes' not found
<dutchie> !quotes is <reply> LaTeX quotes should be done like ``this'' or `this', not like "this" or 'this'
<dutchie> !quotes is <reply> LaTeX quotes should be done like ``this'' or `this', not like "this" or 'this'
<dutchie> !quotes
<manualbot> LaTeX quotes should be done like ``this'' or `this', not like "this" or 'this'
<dutchie> :)
<dutchie> ubuntu-manual rev 50
<dutchie> @Svn ubuntu-manual 50
<manualbot> dutchie: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/revision/50 | http://bazaar.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual -r 50
<dutchie> hey humphreybc
<dutchie> check this out:
<dutchie> !ping
<manualbot> Here I am, brain the size of a planet and you expect me to respond to a ping? How depressing.
<dutchie> also, this:
<dutchie> @Svn rev 50
<dutchie> hmm
<dutchie> manualbot: Svn rev 60
<manualbot> Factoid 'Svn rev 60' not found
<manualbot> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/revision/60 | http://bazaar.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual -r 60
<humphreybc> lol who put the bot in here?
<dutchie> guilty
<humphreybc> awesome
<humphreybc> :)
<dutchie> we've got the bug 1 tracking thing too
<strubbl> which software is this bot?
<dutchie> hmm
<manualbot> dutchie: Error: Could not parse data returned by Launchpad: The read operation timed out (https://launchpad.net/bugs/1)
<dutchie> heh
<dutchie> strubbl: supybot
 * humphreybc is unbelievably thrilled that he can access his uni work over the internet without having to venture out in the rain
 * dutchie pokes manualbot with bug 1 again
<manualbot> dutchie: Error: Could not parse data returned by Launchpad: The read operation timed out (https://launchpad.net/bugs/1)
<humphreybc> haha well it works but with errors?
<dutchie> ah, it'll sort itself out eventually
<humphreybc> haha
<humphreybc> right i need me some coffee. busy sunday, assignment due tomorrow.
<humphreybc> vish are you there?
<vish> o/
<humphreybc> did wolter not send you his lynx yet?
<dutchie> ah yes, I was going to set up a thingy to pop up when wiki edits happeneed
<vish> humphreybc: did you check the wiki? I added a cover with thorwil's lynx
<humphreybc> dutchie: that would be cool. i'm already subscribed but popups in here would be oresome
<humphreybc> vish yeah I did
<humphreybc> and I think wolters lynx would look infinitely better
<vish>  hm...
<humphreybc> thorwills lynx is square shaped! it works well on his
<humphreybc> but not on yours!
<vish> humphreybc: i'll try it without the square?
<humphreybc> well you could but I would just wait till wolter emails you his. have you asked him yet?
<vish> bah... then it would look weird :/
<humphreybc> seriously just wait till he sends you his. you'll see what i mean :)
<humphreybc> what does everyone think of thorwil's proposals?
<vish> humphreybc: ok..sure... wolter ?
<vish> wolter: do you have your latest lynx?
<vish> humphreybc: actually wolter has the svg from my mockup he could add it himself too
<humphreybc> I've got wolters svg
<humphreybc> what's your email address
<humphreybc> i'll send it to you and you can pull the lynx off it
<humphreybc> and stick it on yours
<vish> drkvi-a at yahoo dot com
 * dutchie ponders the best way to get wiki updates as they happen
<vish> humphreybc: send it.. its pretty late here... i'll get it done tomorrow
<humphreybc> okay
<humphreybc> sent
<vish> ok.. nite all
<humphreybc> night
 * humphreybc ponders the title page proposals
<humphreybc> here's trouble
<sebsebseb> hi
<humphreybc> :)
<humphreybc> hi sebsebseb
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: Hi
<humphreybc> lol dutchie: just reading over the logs, wolter when did I say I wanted a bot for the channel? :P
<dutchie> ah well, we've got one now
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: we, meaning you as well, wanted it logged, but  we don't really need a bot that is like ubottu
<humphreybc> haha yeah i meant a logbot, not a AI bot but i guess it's fun. and I never knew it could give you wiki updates etc, so it will be useful :)
<humphreybc> plus how cool are we with our own bot
<dutchie> well, it will give wiki updates once I've written the plugin
<dutchie> :)
<humphreybc> now I just need to work out how to become an OP for this chatroom so I can change the topic :P
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: AI bot?  I just joined, and not seen the log of today again.  anyway is that what  strubbl is?
<dutchie> !hello | sebsebseb
<manualbot> sebsebseb: Hi! Welcome to #ubuntu-manual! Feel free to ask questions and help people out. The channel guidelines are at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcGuidelines . Enjoy your stay!
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: oh now I see it
<sebsebseb> ok strubbl is a person then I expect
<humphreybc> haha
<humphreybc> neat
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: ok that's a copy of  ubottu it seems yeah
<humphreybc> how can we customize that?
<humphreybc> and maybe make it automatically greet people :)
<humphreybc> save us posting links etc
<dutchie> give me a chance
<humphreybc> hahahaha
<humphreybc> okay okay sorry
<sebsebseb> popey and jussi01  and jpds  people like that would know how to  customize it
<dutchie> but yes, very customisable
<dutchie> hey, I'm running the thing
<sebsebseb> dutchie: oh right ok
<strubbl> strubbl==bot? never xD
<sebsebseb> strubbl: well that was the new name I saw in the list
<sebsebseb> I saw one new name not two,  meaning  I wasn't looking properly it seems
<strubbl> ah ok sebsebseb
<dutchie> it nearly got called manuel, but that nick was taken :(
<humphreybc> darn!
<sebsebseb> dutchie: maybe Manualbot or  Manual-bot or something like that,  doesn't really matter though
<humphreybc> call it gertrude
<dutchie> it's registered and everything now, can't be bothered to change it
<dutchie> sebsebseb: it's called manualbot...
<strubbl> call it ingeborg
<humphreybc> bumblebee? optimusprime?
<sebsebseb> dutchie: yeah, but no capital at the begining,  I think that would look better, but doesn't really matter
<humphreybc> if you called it bumblebee you'd have to configure it to play random radio stations from last.fm or something
<humphreybc> sebsebseb: well considering practically everyone on IRC has their username as all lowercase, it makes sense that the manualbot is the same
 * humphreybc likes it how there are three bots in our channel
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: I don't know what MootBot does though
<sebsebseb> something to do with meetings
<sebsebseb> that's all I know
<humphreybc> mootbot handles meetings
<humphreybc> gives you voting, topic options etc
<humphreybc> so dutchie, i'm curious, how do you configure the bot?
<sebsebseb> anyway oh ok, for manualbot starting with a lower case letter
<dutchie> it's pretty much default supybot with the ubottu plugins atm
<humphreybc> yeah i know nothing about bots on IRC
<humphreybc> do you configure scripts and upload them somewhere or is all configuration done with commands on irc in a PM with them?
<dutchie> there's a load of config and Python source sat on my VPS
<dutchie> but you can do a fair bit via PM
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: they get registered like a real person, and then they do whatever to them
<dutchie> hmm, this wiki thing may not be as easy as all that
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: should mention logs in the topic really, and maybe IRC guidelines as well, since this is new an offical channel properly
<sebsebseb> now not new above
<humphreybc> i would like to change the topic but I can't because i'm not an OP
<humphreybc> i need to figure out how to make myself an OP
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: oh that's easy enough
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: also it does say that you set the topic
<humphreybc> yeah i know, when i created the channel
<humphreybc> but when i logged off I lost my OP status
<humphreybc> do you know how to make myself an OP again?
<dutchie> humphreybc: /msg ChanServ op I think
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: yes
<dutchie> something like that
<sebsebseb> dutchie: nearly
<dutchie> specify the channel somewhere
<dutchie> op #ubuntu-manual
<humphreybc> done
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: when you do it this should work.  /chanserv op #ubuntu-manual
<humphreybc> and can I set it to do it automatically when I join?
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: then /topic to change the topic and put in a new oen
<sebsebseb> one
<humphreybc> doesn't that mean anyone can become an OP? lol
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: and Freenode guidelines say people shoudn't show op all the time
<sebsebseb> Ubuntu channels are like that to
* humphreybc changed the topic of #ubuntu-manual to: Ubuntu Manual channel, discussion and help about the Ubuntu Manual Project | https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual | Launchpad: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual | IRC logs @ irclogs.ubuntu.com
<sebsebseb> only do op stuff when you have a reason to
<dutchie> only becuase ubuntu channels are on freenode
<sebsebseb> dutchie: well yeah
<humphreybc> what's the justification for that rule?
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: then to not show op anymore /chanserv deop #ubuntu-manual
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: and well your on Pidgin not sure about that one, but  with Konversation for example,  you can become op and take op  graphically, as well as kick and ban
<humphreybc> but can't anyone become an OP?
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: no
<humphreybc> so howcome I can become OP?
<sebsebseb> That's, because you started the channel
<dutchie> /msg ChanServ #ubuntu-manual access gives the list of people who can
<sebsebseb> and registered it
<dutchie> erm, swap that round
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: you cam make other people op as well
<dutchie> and add list
<sebsebseb> can above
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: in the topic I would do an actsaul url for the logs
<sebsebseb> so people can click on it and go there
<humphreybc> righto
<dutchie> that could be a pain, as they change daily
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: also you should put in the  guidelines link really
 * dutchie spies a job for the bot
<sebsebseb> dutchie: no it links to  the main logs site
<sebsebseb> then people go on the logs they want to go on
* humphreybc changed the topic of #ubuntu-manual to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Manual channel, discussion and help about the Ubuntu Manual Project | https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual | Launchpad: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual | IRC logs: http://irclogs.ubuntu.com
<humphreybc> yeah dutchie just a link to the main log site
<sebsebseb> and those are done by  day, month, and year
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: and the guidelines link, and the topic is fine  for now I think
<sebsebseb> !guidelines
<manualbot> The guidelines for using the Ubuntu channels can be found here: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcGuidelines
<sebsebseb> !coc
<manualbot> The Ubuntu Code of Conduct is a community etiquette document to which we ask all Ubuntu users to adhere, and can be found at http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct/ .  For information on how to electronically sign the CoC, see https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SigningCodeofConduct .
<dutchie> bug 1
<sebsebseb> !bug1
<sebsebseb> !windows
<manualbot> dutchie: Error: Could not parse data returned by Launchpad: The read operation timed out (https://launchpad.net/bugs/1)
<manualbot> Factoid 'bug1' not found
<manualbot> For discussion on Microsoft software, or help with same, please visit ##windows. See http://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+bug/1 http://linux.oneandoneis2.org/LNW.htm and /msg ubottu equivalents
<dutchie> now that is annoying
<dutchie> anything else we want the bot to do then?
<dutchie> wiki  updates, might be able to do commits too
<sebsebseb> oh going a bit off topic here, then again Subunit's bug 1 is relevant   really for the manual in a way
<manualbot> sebsebseb: Error: Could not parse data returned by Launchpad: The read operation timed out (https://launchpad.net/bugs/1)
<sebsebseb> uh  Subunit's  hmm  that spelling checking didn't work out
<sebsebseb> Konversation has a nice  spelling checking feature
<sebsebseb> spell check
<sebsebseb> Ubuntu's Bug 1  humphreybc ever seen that?
 * humphreybc adds feedback to the screenshot page
<sebsebseb> !love
<manualbot> Factoid 'love' not found
<sebsebseb> oh well, had a feeling that woudn't work since...
<dutchie> !love-#ubuntu-offtopic
<manualbot> Love is like racing across the frozen tundra on a snowmobile which flips over, trapping you underneath. At night, the ice-weasels come.
<humphreybc> lol sebsebseb yeah I have seen bug #1
<dutchie> stop saying bug 1
<dutchie> damn
<manualbot> humphreybc: Error: Could not parse data returned by Launchpad: The read operation timed out (https://launchpad.net/bugs/1)
<dutchie> I said it
<manualbot> dutchie: Error: Could not parse data returned by Launchpad: The read operation timed out (https://launchpad.net/bugs/1)
<dutchie> :)
<humphreybc> dutchie: could we have it pop up when someone pushes through a new revision?
<humphreybc> or changes a blueprint? or files a new bug?
<humphreybc> :)
<sebsebseb> dutchie: that used to work in #ubuntu and I have a feeling I know why  they removed it for that channel
<dutchie> well, we've got this:
<dutchie> @svn 66
<dutchie> I mean
<dutchie> manualbot: svn 66
<manualbot> Factoid 'svn 66' not found
<manualbot> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/revision/66 | http://bazaar.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual -r 66
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: add the guidelines to the topic
<sebsebseb> at the end
<humphreybc> where are the guidelines?
<dutchie> !guidelines
<manualbot> The guidelines for using the Ubuntu channels can be found here: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcGuidelines
<sebsebseb> !guideliens
<manualbot> Factoid 'guideliens' not found
<sebsebseb> !guidelines
<sebsebseb> dutchie: so how to access the thing that shows who can do op here?
<humphreybc> so what should i put at the end of the topic?
<dutchie> /msg Chanserv access #ubuntu-manual list
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: Guidelines:  url
<humphreybc> yeah what's the url
<dutchie> hmm, another interesting plugin
<dutchie> hang on a mo
<humphreybc> dutchie how can I add you and jmburgess as OPs?
<humphreybc> wait who are the admins on LP?
<humphreybc> me, joe and dutchie right?
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: not sure if you should do the Code Of Conduct as well
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: that's a point
<sebsebseb> I think anyone that you add as op to the channel
<sebsebseb> has to sign the code of conduct first realy
<dutchie> /msg ChanServ access #ubuntu-manual add <nick> OP
<sebsebseb> and agree to it
<sebsebseb> !guidelines
<manualbot> The guidelines for using the Ubuntu channels can be found here: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcGuidelines
<sebsebseb> !coc
<manualbot> The Ubuntu Code of Conduct is a community etiquette document to which we ask all Ubuntu users to adhere, and can be found at http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct/ .  For information on how to electronically sign the CoC, see https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SigningCodeofConduct .
<dutchie> hang on, just need to change a setting
 * humphreybc adds dutchie and jmburgess as OPs
* humphreybc changed the topic of #ubuntu-manual to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Manual channel, discussion and help about the Ubuntu Manual Project | https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual | Launchpad: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual | IRC logs: http://irclogs.ubuntu.com | Ubuntu Guidelines: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcGuidelines | Code of Conduct: http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct/
<humphreybc> okay so jmburgess, dutchie and I are admins on LP and OPs in here
<dutchie> ok
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: yes that's fine
<humphreybc> sweet
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: however have you all signed the COC?
 * humphreybc should probably start work on his uni assignment
<humphreybc> sebsebseb: I know I have
<sebsebseb> dutchie and jmburgess have you?
<humphreybc> dutchie has
<dutchie> signed the CoC? yes
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: Ubuntu Manual  discussion
<humphreybc> ?
<sebsebseb> put that at the begining of the topic]
<sebsebseb> instead of that long message, that will be better
<sebsebseb> or if you like,  Ubuntu Manual project discussion
<humphreybc> blah
<humphreybc> Ubuntu Manual Project discussion | https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual | Launchpad: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual | IRC logs: http://irclogs.ubuntu.com | Ubuntu Guidelines: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcGuidelines | Code of Conduct: http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct/
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: nearly
* humphreybc changed the topic of #ubuntu-manual to: Ubuntu Manual Project discussion | https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual | Launchpad: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual | IRC logs: http://irclogs.ubuntu.com | Ubuntu Guidelines: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcGuidelines | Code of Conduct: http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct/
<humphreybc> that's good enough
<sebsebseb> One last topic change :D put  Discussion
 * humphreybc is interested to see that we have 5 ubuntu members in here
<dutchie> rev 66
<manualbot> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/revision/66 | http://bazaar.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual -r 66
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: yeah and ianto who probably will end up becoming one, since he is in charge of  the Welsh loco
<humphreybc> dutchie: you look much younger than I thought you were!
<dutchie> heh
<humphreybc> how old are you?
<dutchie> 17
<humphreybc> fair enough
<humphreybc> how old is joe?
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: Ubuntu  Manual Project Discussion
<ianto> Membership is so over-rated
<humphreybc> would be fairly funny if the 3 leaders of this project were all under 20
<sebsebseb> ianto: this channel is publically logged now by the way
<humphreybc> ianto: ah but people listen to you on UF
<dutchie> !info texlive
<manualbot> dutchie: Error: 'supybot.plugins.PackageInfo.defaultRelease' is not set
<dutchie> oh dear
<humphreybc> although, I'm pretty sure there are a few members who shouldn't be members :S
<ianto> On UF?  What's that?
<sebsebseb> ianto: Ubuntu Forums I assume
<humphreybc> yeah the forums
<dutchie> note the realname on the bot ;)
<ianto> Heh well nobdy listens to me and I'm a moderator on there
<humphreybc> polarish.joshh.co.uk?
<sebsebseb> ianto: oh I didn't know that
 * dutchie hates fora anyway
<sebsebseb> dutchie: fora?
<humphreybc> ianta: how did you become a mod?
<dutchie> plural of forum
<dutchie> humphreybc: do a /whois
<humphreybc> oh ianto = chris swift
<ianto> humphreybc:  By having a subforum on there
<sebsebseb> I have used Ubuntu since the second release in 2005 (Mandriva at the moment on here, 9.04 on other computer)  and I never signed up on the forum
<humphreybc> ianto: I requested a subforum for the manual but KiwiNZ never got back to me.
<sebsebseb> or did I and forgot, no don't think so
<sebsebseb> used another forum a bit when I was doing Fedora Core 2 and 4 before Ubuntu, or whatever
<dutchie> I added a custom factoid too
<dutchie> !quotes
<manualbot> LaTeX quotes should be done like ``this'' or `this', not like "this" or 'this'
<humphreybc> so what's the reasoning for the custom quotes?
<humphreybc> so wait it's ``this''
<dutchie> yeah
<humphreybc> howcome? just a random latex thing?
<dutchie> if you use the latex-suite plugin for vim, it does that automatically
<dutchie> yeah, it's just a latex thing
<humphreybc> okay
<dutchie> there is a reason for it, though I've forgotten it
<humphreybc> i'm using gedit lol
<humphreybc> perhaps I should use a better text editor..
<dutchie> gedit is a perfectly capable editor
<dutchie> hmm, I wonder
<dutchie> !gedit
<manualbot> Text Editors: gedit (GNOME), Kate (KDE), mousepad (Xfce4) - Terminal-based: nano, vi/vim, emacs - For HTML/CSS editors, see !html - For programming editors and IDE, see !code
<dutchie> !vim
<dutchie> !emacs
<dutchie> heh, manualbot only likes gedit
<humphreybc> lol
<ianto> !html
<manualbot> html is HyperText Markup Language, used to build web pages. WYSIWYG editors: KompoZer (was Nvu), Iceape Composer, Amaya - Development environments: Bluefish, Quanta+, Screem - For a howto on HTML coding, see: http://www.w3schools.com/
<ianto> !ode
<manualbot> Factoid 'ode' not found
<ianto> !code
<manualbot> Programming editors/suites: Terminal-based: vi/vim, emacs - KDE: Kate, KDevelop, Quanta+, Umbrello - GNOME: gvim, gedit, anjuta, pida, monodevelop, geany - Others: eclipse, netbeans, QtCreator
<humphreybc> yay eclipse
<ianto> Why is there no nano? :p
 * humphreybc reluctantly starts work on his economics assignment
 * dutchie notes that no-one has started the epic reorganisation
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: /chanserv deop #ubuntu-manual unless your going to change the topic again of course
<dutchie> ooh, and the meeting notes
<dutchie> humphreybc: if you'd send me a link to the minutes, I'll write them up
<humphreybc> meeting notes..
<humphreybc> jmburgess was going to do this
<humphreybc> and stick em on the meeting page on the wiki
 * humphreybc realises he has the wrong freakin' stuff for his assignment and might have to venture out in the rain at some point to get the right stuff. damn it
<sebsebseb> dutchie: should chanserv maybe guard this channel?  I think most Ubuntu channels if not all, bother with it?
<sebsebseb> don't bother with it above that was meant to be
<dutchie> sebsebseb: you don't need chanserv in a channel to look after it
<sebsebseb> dutchie: I thought it just keeps it open, if  no one is in the room
<sebsebseb> dutchie: ?
<dutchie> I'm not sure if the channel being registered is enough for that
<humphreybc> yeah it is kept open
<humphreybc> if no one is here
<sebsebseb> chanserv does something though
<humphreybc> but there will always be someone here
<sebsebseb> well something could happen to the network in the future, and loads of people can't connect, or something like that, I guess
<dutchie> what, a netsplit
<dutchie> ?
<sebsebseb> well netsplits can kick everyone out of a channel yeah
<sebsebseb> and  then people can have issues with re joining as well
<sebsebseb> plus computers aren't perfect, things can go wrong
<sebsebseb> dutchie: anyway yeah I guess chanserv isn't needed
<sebsebseb> to guard this channel
<humphreybc> meh i'm sure it'll be fine
<dutchie> @list
<manualbot> dutchie: Admin, Bantracker, Bugtracker, Channel, ChannelStats, Config, Encyclopedia, Misc, Owner, PackageInfo, RSS, Svn, and User
#ubuntu-manual 2010-01-10
<humphreybc> is that the factoid list?
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: no don't think so
<dutchie> no, that's the loaded plugins
<humphreybc> ah ha
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: I thought you were older, but seems your a university student?
<humphreybc> yeah i'm 19
<humphreybc> I study software engineering
<sebsebseb> oh ok
<humphreybc> so like programming, code writing and there is an element of commerce to my degree which is ridiculous but oh well
<dutchie> why are you doing an economics assignment then?
<humphreybc> ^^
<dutchie> ah, it's not like one of those silly american degrees where you don't specialise for 15000 year
<dutchie> s
<humphreybc> I have to do 120 points of commerce papers (each paper worth 18) because my degree is "applied science" - ie, aimed at entrepreneurial startups in the IT industry
<humphreybc> I've already done a java paper, probably doing python and some more java this year. But i'm mainly doing commerce for this year which sucks
<dutchie> :(
<dutchie> you done much coding before?
<humphreybc> but I realised I can't do any more on my assignment till I walk into uni later... and it's pouring down with rain. So i'm pestering my friend to come round and show me her work!
<sebsebseb> not realy a big deal now, but  maybe #ubuntu-manual-offtopic or whatever it would be called, would be a good idea as well
<humphreybc> I did HTML, CSS and PHP in school
<dutchie> :( PHP
<humphreybc> sebsebseb: nah we don't have enough traffic in here for that
<humphreybc> oh and MYSQL
<humphreybc> mainly web design stuff
<dutchie> no "proper languages" then
<humphreybc> java was fun last year though. we had two labs a week and made a program in each. they got pretty intense near the end
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: sure, but for now the off topic is being logged as well
<humphreybc> haha well no not really
<humphreybc> sebsebseb: true. meh.
<dutchie> hey, my offtopic blurblings have been logged in #ubuntu-uk for ages
<humphreybc> i'm looking forward to cracking into some python so I can help out with some ubuntu programs
<sebsebseb> dutchie: yeah the bot had .co.uk
<dutchie> that's because it's run on my server
<sebsebseb> Ubuntu UK is ok, but I don't like it much
<sebsebseb> I don't like Ubuntu Offtopic either  much
<sebsebseb> hmm  I just thought of something
<sebsebseb> two things now actsaully
<sebsebseb> !ot
<manualbot> #ubuntu is the Ubuntu support channel, for all Ubuntu-related support questions. Please use #ubuntu-offtopic for other topics. Thanks!
<sebsebseb> ok well that one needs changing or whatever
<sebsebseb> !uk
<manualbot> Join us for a discussion using the Queen's English in #ubuntu-uk
<humphreybc> dutchie: i've been thinking of making my server online, at the moment it's just local
<dutchie> easy to save a new factoid
<sebsebseb> dutchie: indeed
<sebsebseb> factoid suggestion hmm
<dutchie> humphreybc: mine's been up about a year, hasn't been hacked yet
<sebsebseb> maybe something like,   Best to keep this channel mainly on topic!
<sebsebseb> since we don't have an off topic room
<dutchie> shall we found one? ;)
<sebsebseb> dutchie: I got another channel that I use as a kind of off topic channel :)
<dutchie> !ot is <reply> Best to keep this channel mainly on topic!
<manualbot> But ot already means something else!
<dutchie> !no ot is <reply> Best to keep this channel mainly on topic!
<humphreybc> you guys want to start a #ubuntu-manual-offtopic ?
<manualbot> I'll remember that dutchie
<humphreybc> !ot
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: not so much now
<manualbot> Best to keep this channel mainly on topic!
<dutchie> maybe not #ubuntu-manual-offtopic, maybe just something else
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: a bit of off topic is ok I guess in  here for now really, just not to much of it
<humphreybc> hokay. dutchie is it easy to stick your server online?
<dutchie> just buy a domain and aim it there
<humphreybc> well of course on topic takes priority. i don't see any problem with off topic when there's nothing else going on
<ianto> !cym is <reply> Dewch i siarad yn y sianel #ubuntu-cym yn Saesneg neu yn Cymraeg | Come to the #ubuntu-cym channel to speak in Welsh or English
<dutchie> (assuming you've got a static IP)
<humphreybc> i've got a couple of domains
<ianto> :p
<sebsebseb> ianto: :D
 * dutchie is tempted to change that to something offensive
<humphreybc> i'd have to move my blog to my server maybe. nah screw that. how can I point it to www.interesting.co.nz?
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: sure, but  since it's being offically logged, most of those logs should be useful info really
<humphreybc> !sl is <reply> choo choo!
<sebsebseb> !ot
<manualbot> Best to keep this channel mainly on topic!
<ianto> !doc
<manualbot> documentation is to be found at http://help.ubuntu.com and http://wiki.ubuntu.com - General linux documentation: http://www.tldp.org - http://rute.2038bug.com
<ianto> Roughly on topic
<dutchie> ianto: try the !cym factoid now
<ianto> !cym
<manualbot> Oh, boyo, come and sing of the valleys in #ubuntu-cym!
<dutchie> :)
<sebsebseb> there was someone here the other day
<sebsebseb> well the first day this channel is being offically logged
<sebsebseb> that wanted to translate, but their English wasn't that good as well or something like that
<dutchie> the italian guy?
<sebsebseb> yes
<sebsebseb> what happended to them? etc  are they translating now I guess not?
<sebsebseb> different languages can sometimes be an issue online, because then people don't always understand each other
<sebsebseb> their could be more people coming here in the future, that don't know English that well
<sebsebseb> in fact that's likely to happen if the manual takes off properly
<dutchie> hopefully, if the manual takes off properly, we'll have enough people talking (say) italian that they can take care of the guy who isn't so confident
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: I am not going to do it right now, but i'll do a proper comment for the  front cover propoals.  That will be better than some stuff I put on IRC (before this channel was offically publically logged)
<sebsebseb> proposals
<sebsebseb> (sometimes I want to correct stuff on IRC, that doesn't really need to be corrected)
<sebsebseb> dutchie: indeed
<humphreybc> sweet
<humphreybc> sounds good
 * humphreybc may have to go to the lab after work at 7pm to do the assignment. crap.
<sebsebseb> dutchie: oh yeah Ubuntu  channels tend to only be for one language, so if it was to hit off properly, might have to make different language channels for it, or at least use loco channels sometimes for it
<dutchie> yeah, I think just aim them at the LoCo channels
<sebsebseb> I was thinking about the front cover and languages before and now again
<sebsebseb> well  that will be in English I guess always and not translated to other languages?
<humphreybc> sebsebseb: we will translate the front cover for each version
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: including for example the Ubuntu slogan,  Ubuntu Linux For Human  Beings?
<humphreybc> no
<sebsebseb> yep that's what I thought
<sebsebseb> ,but stuff like Created by the Ubuntu Manual Team
<sebsebseb> would get translated?
<humphreybc> yea
<sebsebseb> ,but  not the name itself though?  Ubuntu Manual Team
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: right?
<humphreybc> um
<humphreybc> i'm not sure
<sebsebseb> wel I guess not.  let's take this for example, it's still Ubuntu Software Center  the package and that,  but  in the menu when Ubuntu is in EN GB  it will say Ubuntu Software Centre instead
<sebsebseb> I would have prefered  if  they had gone with Ubuntu Software Centre for all of it, in the first place, but no,  since they use American English as the default
<sebsebseb> would be ok to translate Ubuntu Manual  Team as well  I think, and in the future maybe have differnet language versions of the wiki
<humphreybc> yep
<sebsebseb> humphreybc:  dutchie  #ubuntu-manual-chat  maybe in the future
<sebsebseb> ?
<dutchie> maybe
<dutchie> I was thinking entirely outside the #ubuntu-* hierarchy
<sebsebseb> dutchie: well an offical channel isn't really meant to have an unoffical channel as it's offtopic/chat
<sebsebseb> or one that doesn't have the ubuntu name in it, as far as I know
<sebsebseb> plus their are loads of off topic  / chat type rooms on this network,  Freenode has one as well
<dutchie> just fancied stirring things up :)
<sebsebseb> dutchie: so why the name dutchie ?
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: what's the bc about in yours?
<dutchie> Josh Holland, then an utter lack of imagination
<sebsebseb> dutchie: ah right
<humphreybc> my initials
<sebsebseb> just saw that, but I was hovering over the names before and seeing the thing hmm
<sebsebseb> for most/all
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: Benjamin Humphrey  where's the C  some sort of middle name?
<humphreybc> yeah first letter of my middle name
<sebsebseb> mine has a little story behind it, but I don't really want to share it in a Ubuntu channel
<humphreybc> lol
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: Why so funny?
<humphreybc> you're too careful
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: noI am not
<sebsebseb> anyway explain?
<sebsebseb> or not
<sebsebseb> I could say the story here, I just don't want to
<sebsebseb> that's all
<humphreybc> fair nuff
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: anyway good to have stuff that is relivant to the project, mainly in the logs
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: Wiki: url   Launchpad: url
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: Just has the URL for the wiki at the moment
<sebsebseb> The other urls say what they are, but it doesn't for the wiki at the moment
* dutchie changed the topic of #ubuntu-manual to: Ubuntu Manual Project discussion | https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual | Launchpad:  https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual | IRC logs: http://irclogs.ubuntu.com | Ubuntu Guidelines: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcGuidelines | Code of  Conduct: http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct/
* dutchie changed the topic of #ubuntu-manual to: Ubuntu Manual Project discussion | Wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual | Launchpad:  https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual | IRC logs: http://irclogs.ubuntu.com | Ubuntu Guidelines: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcGuidelines | Code of Conduct: http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct/
<sebsebseb> dutchie: ok you sorted it :)
 * humphreybc is off to work for 4 hours
<humphreybc> catch ya'll later
<IlyaHaykinson> pushed a few commits -- copyedits on chap 1..3
 * humphreybc is back
<humphreybc> Ilya, what do you mean by "copyediting"?
<IlyaHaykinson_> text = copy; copyediting = editing the text
<IlyaHaykinson_> edited for style & accuracy, mainly. feel free to review and revert.
<humphreybc> ok
<dutchie> did someone set the list to moderated?
<dutchie> ah, I think it's someone not in the team
<vish> dutchie: hi.. what is the page size of the manual?
<dutchie> it's the american letter size
<dutchie> no idea what the dimensions of that are
<vish> hmm.
<dutchie> google will probably know ;)
<vish> yeah  , google is a great friend ;)
<sebsebseb> Hi
<jmburgess> hey everone
<sebsebseb> !hello |  jmburgess
<manualbot> jmburgess: Hi! Welcome to #ubuntu-manual! Feel free to ask questions and help people out. The channel guidelines are at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcGuidelines . Enjoy your stay!
<sebsebseb> jmburgess: that factoid should be changed for this channel
<sebsebseb> dutchie: ^
<jmburgess> haha
<jmburgess> hmmmm can I change that?
<jmburgess> I don't think so/I have no idea how
<sebsebseb> jmburgess: if you got bot access yes
<jmburgess> i have no idea if I do, I am admin on the launchpad
<sebsebseb> jmburgess: well dutchie has bot access
<jmburgess> nice
<jmburgess> dutchie do your thing
<sebsebseb> since he also hosts it, anyway he seems to be away
<jmburgess> gotcha
<sebsebseb> jmburgess: so do you think manualbot is a he/she/it ?
<sebsebseb> jmburgess: well ubottu is female, so this one is at the moment as well I guess
<sebsebseb> !gender
<manualbot> yes, I can confirm I am a female bot :)
<jmburgess> haha
<jmburgess> i mean some females would be nice in the group
<jmburgess> haha
<sebsebseb> jmburgess: uhmm
<i_is_broke> hello
<sebsebseb> jmburgess: remember the channel is publically logged now,  and certian people don't like those kind of comments, even if it is only a joke
<sebsebseb> jmburgess: or even if you mean it, but in a friendly way
<sebsebseb> !women | jmburgess
<manualbot> jmburgess: The women and men of the Ubuntu women project hang out in #ubuntu-women. Encouraging women to use linux? Read http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/Encourage-Women-Linux-HOWTO/ for some suggestions compiled by women who use Linux on how to do so effectively.
<dutchie> what?
<sebsebseb> dutchie: to what?  the bot factoid or?
 * dutchie is reading the backscroll now
<sebsebseb> dutchie: ah ok
<dutchie> what should the !hello be changed to then?
<sebsebseb> !hi
<manualbot> Hi! Welcome to #ubuntu-manual! Feel free to ask questions and help people out. The channel guidelines are at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcGuidelines . Enjoy your stay!
<sebsebseb> !hi and !hello are the same thing
<manualbot> sebsebseb: Error: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :)
<sebsebseb> just needs to be a hi or hello or welcome to the channel
<sebsebseb> so the first bit sure, but the last lot no.
<sebsebseb> dutchie: could put in a  Enjoy your stay!  If really wanted though
<dutchie> !hello is <reply> Hi! Welcome to #ubuntu-manual! Feel free to ask questions and help people out.
<manualbot> But hello already means something else!
<dutchie> !no hello is <reply> Hi! Welcome to #ubuntu-manual! Feel free to ask questions and help people out.
<manualbot> I'll remember that dutchie
<sebsebseb> dutchie: Feel free to ask questions and help people out, is more for the support channels.
<sebsebseb> this isn't #ubuntu
<dutchie> come up with one yourself then
<sebsebseb> where that message is fine  the one the bot had before
<sebsebseb> Hi!  Welcome to #ubuntu-manual
<sebsebseb> or
<dutchie> and add it like I did
 * dutchie is lazy
<sebsebseb> Hi!  Welcome to #ubuntu-manual please enjoy your stay!
<sebsebseb> dutchie: uhmm I don't have bot access, and probably shoudn't really have it here
<dutchie> it'll forward to me
<i_is_broke> yeah i thought this would be more for the manual then actual help.
<sebsebseb> i_is_broke: exactly which is why I was suggesting the !hi factoid got changed
<i_is_broke> hi and welcome, come in and sit down and read a book..lol
<sebsebseb> dutchie: oh yeah  it can be done in pm with the bot,  but not sure how to do that
<dutchie> !no hello is <reply> Hi! Welcome to #ubuntu-manual! Enjoy your stay.
<manualbot> I'll remember that dutchie
<sebsebseb> !hi
<dutchie> if you do that, it'll forward the request to me, and I'll review it at some point
<manualbot> Hi! Welcome to #ubuntu-manual! Feel free to ask questions and help people out. The channel guidelines are at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcGuidelines . Enjoy your stay!
<sebsebseb> dutchie: change !hi as well to that, and it's fine
<i_is_broke> yeah that would work too.
<dutchie> !no hi is <alias> hello
<manualbot> I'll remember that dutchie
<dutchie> !hi
<manualbot> Hi! Welcome to #ubuntu-manual! Enjoy your stay.
<i_is_broke> something simple, will be for a lot of new people.
<sebsebseb> oh
<sebsebseb> !
<sebsebseb> i_is_broke: yes  have you seen the art work on the wiki for the front cover?
<i_is_broke> now is this manual, going to be added on or is there going to be an advanced manual out as well?
<sebsebseb> i_is_broke: people  have been picking and doing comments
<i_is_broke> sebsebseb, yup
<sebsebseb> dutchie: put in the ! in the factoid and it's fine
<sebsebseb> !hi
<manualbot> Hi! Welcome to #ubuntu-manual! Enjoy your stay.
<jmburgess> better
<i_is_broke> sebsebseb, guess they should of got in on it sooner if they have complaints.
<sebsebseb> oh it's got !  ,but after the channel name, that's another little mistake
<sebsebseb> i_is_broke: no
<sebsebseb> i_is_broke: the idea is for the art work to be commented on
<i_is_broke> oh ok
<i_is_broke> i see
<dutchie> sebsebseb: what, like this:
<i_is_broke> i thought it was quite good my self
<dutchie> !no hello is <reply> Hi! Welcome to #ubuntu-manual! Enjoy your stay!
<manualbot> I'll remember that dutchie
<sebsebseb> you can do one yourself,  and someone will add, or you can yourself  if you join the wiki and such I think
<sebsebseb> !hi
<manualbot> Hi! Welcome to #ubuntu-manual! Enjoy your stay!
<i_is_broke> ill check into it.
<i_is_broke> right now im kind of in the middle of hacking around with python...lol
<sebsebseb> dutchie:  that will do it I guess,  but if we want to be really fussy or whatever  !hello  should  start with  Hello! rather than Hi!
<sebsebseb> i_is_broke: oh yeah we got another factoid :) yeah this one
<sebsebseb> !ot
<manualbot> Best to keep this channel mainly on topic!
<jmburgess> haha
<dutchie> sebsebseb: that is far too much fuss
<sebsebseb> jmburgess: plus he knows where he can chat to me
<sebsebseb> dutchie: well yeah  I guess so
<sebsebseb> i_is_broke: if it's about manual  you can say it here
<sebsebseb> dutchie: can anyone edit the wiki for the manual, or just team members?
<dutchie> anyone with a launchpad account can edit the wiki
<i_is_broke> now this is going to be actual ways they want things done, so its not going to be like the hit and misses of the forums right?
<sebsebseb> dutchie: yeah that's what I meant by anyone,  anyone with an account
<jmburgess> sebsebseb: I am pretty sure everyone can
<ikonia> the manual page in the topic doesnm't exist in the wiki
<sebsebseb> !hi | ikonia
<manualbot> ikonia: Hi! Welcome to #ubuntu-manual! Enjoy your stay!
<ikonia> sebsebseb: just say hi
<ikonia> I don't need a bot thrown at me
<sebsebseb> ikonia: true, but we were just changing the factoid
<sebsebseb> hello
<ikonia> so ?
<dutchie> ikonia: which manual page?
<ikonia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual
<humphreybc> morning everyone
<dutchie> wfm
<ikonia> ahhh it does exist
<ikonia> wiki was just being odd
<ikonia> just refreshed and it was there
<sebsebseb> dutchie: It's got a ! after the channel in that factoid, but doesn't really matter that much.  Not a big deal.  Change it if you want of course though.
<dutchie> sebsebseb: why should there not be a ! after the channel? it's the end of a sentence...
<sebsebseb> dutchie: I mean #ubuntu-manual!
<sebsebseb> dutchie: ah ha I get you now,  ok doesn't matter, since people are already in the channel so don't need to click on the link.
<vish> ikonia: very tired of the bots, eh? ;)
<ikonia> a little
<vish> ikonia: probably sebsebseb didnt realize you are a mod/OP :)
<sebsebseb> vish: oh I know
<vish> ah , cool
<ikonia> it's not a big deal
<dutchie> sebsebseb: oh, is your irc client picking up the ! as part of the channel name, and not just a punctuation mark
<sebsebseb> dutchie: exactly
<dutchie> get a proper client, or file a bug, or something :P
<sebsebseb> dutchie: this is a nice client
<dutchie> what is it?
<sebsebseb> dutchie: Konversation which I would much rather use in Gnome/KDE  than Xchat for example
<dutchie> irssi++
<sebsebseb> dutchie: well yeah irssi, but that would need time to set up properly
<ikonia> 30 seconds
<ikonia> the default install is a good base
<dutchie> all I've done on top of the defaults is add a few plugins
<ikonia> dutchie: 45 seconds then
<sebsebseb> ikonia: well I looked on their  help on the website for it, when I had it in Ubuntu whenever it was now,  and  was a bit like uh, I would have to set this and that up
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: Hello
<dutchie> sebsebseb: all you have to set up is login/server info, which you'd have to do in any client that isn't telepathic
<humphreybc> hey mate
<sebsebseb> vish: Going back to bots, some people over use them, and other people don't like it.
<vish> sebsebseb: yeah... :)
<dutchie> there's always /ignore
<ikonia> the bots can be very very useful
<ikonia> I just don't like them used for things like "hello"
<sebsebseb> ikonia: the bots can be very useful indeed
<ikonia> if you can't be bothered to type "hello" to someone why type "!hello" to get automated blah thrown at soeone
<ikonia> someone
<ikonia> it has it's place
<vish> hehe
<vish> !topic
<manualbot> Please read the channel topic whenever you enter, as it contains important information. To view it at any time after joining, simply type /topic
<vish> meh..
<humphreybc> so what's all this?
<humphreybc> mixed opinions on manuel?
<ikonia> not at all, it looks like a good project
<vish> nah... just idle chat :)
<ikonia> I'm interested
<humphreybc> righto good good
<sebsebseb> ikonia: well ubottu, manualbot, and so on, still have a !hi factoid.  Maybe !hi should get removed from #ubuntu and #ubuntu+1?  Like !love was
<humphreybc> i'm sorry I can't stay and chat guys, i've got 5 hours worth of back to back lectures to contend with today
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: ah right yeah, you told us about an exam before
<ikonia> sebsebseb: it has it's place, it can be useful, more so in busy channels
<humphreybc> oh no it's not an exam
<jmburgess> sadly my school is just starting tomorrow
<humphreybc> these are just regular lectures :(
<jmburgess> not looking forward to that
<humphreybc> oh noes we're losing everyone to school
<humphreybc> oh jmburgess while you're here
<jmburgess> yep?
<humphreybc> could you email the mailing list and basically give everyone a "final call" to get their opinions in on the new ToC?
<jmburgess> humphreybc: I thought it is summer where you are
<jmburgess> yep
<humphreybc> because i'd like to change over to the new ToC asap - probably sometime today/tonight
<ikonia> Toc ?
<sebsebseb> ikonia: Tables Of Contents
<sebsebseb> Table rather no s
<humphreybc> ahm it's meant to be summer but when you're at 45 degrees latitude south it's freezing cold. I'm doing summer school.
<ikonia> ah
<humphreybc> alright sweet. what time is it over where you live jmburgess?
<sebsebseb> ikonia: exactly an interesting project it should be, their was quite a lot of media attention articles/blogs
<humphreybc> because it's like 8am here and after I finish lectures i'll work on changing the wiki and blueprints over to the new ToC. So everyone has about 6 hours to get their opinions in before a final decision is made :)
<ikonia> I've not read any of the media / blog posts on it to be honest
<jmburgess> nice
<jmburgess> it is 1:54 pm
<humphreybc> oh awesome well that's not too bad
<jmburgess> nope
<jmburgess> I will send out the email now
<dutchie> jmburgess: you in the states?
<humphreybc> so i'll be back at about 8pm your time
<jmburgess> dutchie: yep
<jmburgess> Pittsburgh area
<humphreybc> oh yeah dutchie this probably applies to you too if you want to help with the latex conversion xD
<dutchie> we're spread right across the world then
<jmburgess> dutchie: you?
<dutchie> uk
<jmburgess> nice
<humphreybc> it truly is an international project :)
<jmburgess> yep
<humphreybc> oh and btw
<sebsebseb> ikonia: Well I never checked out the Lucid blue prints in full, just some, but the manual has something  as well I think.   Anyway IRC channel, and then a link that took me to an article about it.  That's how I found out about this project the other night.  Then told someone about it and he has done some cover art work.
<dutchie> gives us a nice coverage of the time zones too
<humphreybc> i stuck Jamin Day in charge of editing
<humphreybc> so he's going to find out who else wants to edit, and sort out the editing team
<humphreybc> then he's going to assign an editor to each chapter
<jmburgess> I will redo a bunch of the latex stuff tonight, and email everyone when I push the revision
<humphreybc> the editors will work as a two person team with the authors of each chapter
<humphreybc> dutchie: we can work 24 hours!
<dutchie> :)
<jmburgess> yeah humphreybc when you go to sleep, I wake up generally
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: ah yes  time zones, but this is The Internet
<humphreybc> i haven't emailed anyone about the new editing thing yet, but i'll do that this afternoon
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: so people are indeed in different time zones
<humphreybc> Jamin wants better communication between the editing team and the authors, so we're going to make full use of the whiteboards on blueprints
<jmburgess> sounds good
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: people working on the project 24 hours, sounds like a nice idea
 * humphreybc needs to buy a linux friendly printer today - ideas?
<dutchie> HP
<jmburgess> hp
<ikonia> HP is the only way to go
<humphreybc> really?
<jmburgess> I have a wireless hp printer and it is excellent
<vish> humphreybc: BTW , did you get my mail?
<jmburgess> and does duplex
<sebsebseb> I don't know that much about printers, but why you guys think HP is the best?
<humphreybc> there's a cheap Canon Pixma that has downloadable .deb drivers from their site
<humphreybc> and also their own .deb scanning software
<humphreybc> but i'll look for an HP
<vish> humphreybc: cover + the lynx
<humphreybc> the guy in the shop totally won't know anything about linux
<jmburgess> vish: where is it?
<humphreybc> vish: yup i did and I replied
<ikonia> sebsebseb: support
<jmburgess> humphreybc: correct, HP likes linux
<humphreybc> okay HP it is then
<vish> jmburgess: i added it to the wiki too
<ikonia> sebsebseb: hp printers have the best linux support
<sebsebseb> ikonia: drivers from HP for Linux you mean or?
<humphreybc> nah canon had drivers on their site
<humphreybc> in .deb and .rpm
<ikonia> sebsebseb: no, things like cups have compatible drivers, and HP activly develop them for linux too
<sebsebseb> ikonia: ah ok thanks
<humphreybc> and also their own scanning software. but if you guys think HP, then HP it is - provided I can find something under $150
<jmburgess> I think the lynx is too prominant
<humphreybc> vish: yeh i replied, basically just asked if you could move the lynx down a bit so it's nearer to the bottom edge. Maybe make it a wee bit bigger as well
<humphreybc> perhaps the opacity needs to go down
<jmburgess> like it looks like it is staring at me, which is kinda creepy
<humphreybc> jmburgess: freak all the newbies out :P "We are LINUX and we will eat you alive!"
<jmburgess> humphreybc: hahaha exactly
 * vish checks mail
<vish> jmburgess: well , i didnt actually do the lynx :)
<jmburgess> right I know
<jmburgess> can you I guess lower the opacity maybe
<jmburgess> im not sure
<humphreybc> the lynx looks sweet tho, but make it look more like wolters mockup in size and opacity
<humphreybc> and position
<humphreybc> it's too high on the page
<jmburgess> humphreybc: agreed
<humphreybc> i might have a go at a mockup this afternoon too
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: oh that other lynx  I didn't like as much as wolters
<humphreybc> yeah the other lynx looks good on thorwil's only
<humphreybc> as he said he originally made it for a T shirt
<humphreybc> hence why it has the square proportion
<humphreybc> or rectangular rather
<humphreybc> okay i gotta shoot
<sebsebseb> well I am sure that t shirt looks  great, if it still exists
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: probably a nice t shirt yeah, anyway ok bye
<jmburgess> cya sebsebseb
<sebsebseb> jmburgess: no I am not going he is, are you as well?
<humphreybc> oh also
<humphreybc> you know how we have a prologue + 9 chapters in the new ToC
<humphreybc> why don't we just make the prologue chapter 1 and then push everything down one number
<humphreybc> so then we'll have ten chapters again
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: ok that wasn't really for me, but by the way I read the meeting log
<humphreybc> ok that's all good sebsebseb
<humphreybc> anyway have a think about that, makes sense to me
<humphreybc> and less blueprints to change
<humphreybc> righto bye!
<sebsebseb> ok bye
<sebsebseb> humphreybc: bye
<vish> humphreybc: just a sec
<vish> humphreybc: jmburgess: http://imagebin.ca/view/34zc4T.html
<vish> bigger and lighter
<vish> the lynx needs a bit more work... since the version you sent has a lot of problems
<vish> just adding the transparency creates problems... :/
<sebsebseb> vish: I think he has already gone
<vish> yeah
<vish> http://imagebin.ca/view/vGZGXZOU.html ... this looks ok size to me... anything bigger would be frightening  ;)
<vish> scaled to 500px width
<vish> http://imagebin.ca/view/X9Sien.html
<vish> humphreybc: when you get back ping me... if it needs to be bigger/smaller...
<vish> hmm , less scary eyes... > http://imagebin.ca/view/eyotBuWB.html
<vish> argh! its tough working on someone else's source :/
<dutchie> ooh, that's better
<vish> dutchie: the last one?
<dutchie> yeah
<dutchie> without the scary eyes
<vish> yeah, the yellow was drawing too much attention
#ubuntu-manual 2011-01-03
<nisshh> godbyk, ping
#ubuntu-manual 2011-01-05
<j1mc> hi all - in case anyone is interested, there will be a docs team meeting this sunday, 1/9, at 17:00 UTC.
<j1mc> we're going to be discussing Unity docs in Natty
<j1mc> feel free to join, if you are so inclined.  meeting info is here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/MeetingAgenda
<godbyk> Thanks, j1mc!
<godbyk> I'll add it to my calendar.
<j1mc> thanks, godbyk
<daker> godbyk, ping
<godbyk> daker: pong
<daker> i want you to update the translations
<godbyk> okay. what's involved in that?
<godbyk> (it's been a long time since I've done anything with the website. :-))
<daker> ok i'll show you
<daker> godbyk, https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual-website/trunk/+export
<daker> download the mo format
<godbyk> done.
<godbyk> now we'll wait for an email.
<godbyk> (takes a few minutes sometimes.)
<godbyk> daker: okay, got the translations tarball
<daker> ok wait a sec i am branching the trunk
<godbyk> 'kay.
<daker> godbyk, ok put them in a folder somewhere
<godbyk> can I just extract the files to ubuntu-manual.org/includes/languages/ and let it overwrite the existing stuff?
<godbyk> daker: okay, they're in a temp folder.
<daker> there is a file called "script" in ubuntu-manual.org/includes/languages/
<godbyk> I see it.
<daker> copie it in where you extracted the files
<daker> then run ./script
<godbyk> okay
<godbyk> one moment.
<godbyk> do I need to give it any arguments?
<daker> no
<godbyk> okay, done.
<daker> now overwrite ubuntu-manual.org/includes/languages/ withe those files
<godbyk> 'kay.
<godbyk> what's the script do, btw?
<godbyk> daker: okay, I've finished copying the files over.
<godbyk> daker: did I break anything? :)
<daker> wait i'll see
<daker> not sure some strings are not translated
<daker> godbyk, i need you to fix another thing
<godbyk> sure thing
<daker> open ubuntu-manual.org/includes/pages
<daker> downloads.php
<daker> do you see the function Set_Params
<daker> remove the lines between:
<daker> edition = $("#edition").val();
<godbyk> no includes.. just pages/
<daker> yes yes
<godbyk> I see the function.
<daker> remove the lines between:
<daker> edition = $("#edition").val();
<daker> and
<daker> language = $("#language_list").val();
<godbyk> leave the edition = and language = lines?  or remove those, too?
<daker> leave them
<godbyk> okay. so just remove the $.ajax(...); bit.
<godbyk> done
<daker> yaeh
<daker> now add this one
<daker>     			function Set_Params2(){
<daker>     				//Assign selected item to tne url
<daker>     				edition = $("#edition").val();
<daker>     				$.ajax
<daker> 				({
<daker> 				    type: "POST",
<daker> 				    url: "ajax_manuals.php",
<daker> 				    data: { edition: edition },
<daker> 				    cache: false,
<daker> 				    success: function(html)
<daker> 				    {
<daker> 				    $("#language_list").html(html);
<daker> 				    }
<daker> 				});
<daker>     				language = $("#language_list").val();
<daker> 				if ($("#screen").is(":checked"))    				
<daker>     				optimzed = "screen";
<daker>     				else
<daker> 				if ($("#print").is(":checked"))
<daker>     				optimzed = "print";
<daker>     				Download();
<daker>     				
<daker>     			}
<godbyk> daker: can you throw that on a pastebin site?
<godbyk> (it'll be easier to copy that way)
<daker> ok
<godbyk> do you want me to add that above or below the Set_Params function?
<daker> http://paste.ubuntu.com/550847/
<daker> as you like
<godbyk> 'kay. done.
<daker> godbyk,
<daker> $("#edition").change(Set_Params);
<daker> change it to
<daker> $("#edition").change(Set_Params2);
<godbyk> just the edition one?  (leaving the language, screen, and print as Set_Params?)
<godbyk> daker: done
<daker> yes
<daker> thanks
<daker> some strings are not translated don't why
<godbyk> have I broken anything yet?
<godbyk> hmm.. did something in the original html get changed and the pot file wasn't updated and uploaded to launchpad?
<daker> lemme check launchpad
<godbyk> 'kay.
<godbyk> daker: just don't get all the translators angry with us! :-)
<daker> ã
<daker> one last thing
<daker> godbyk,
<godbyk> daker: all the strings I've seen so far appear to be translated.  (I'm looking at the Dutch translation.)
<daker> open ubuntu-manual.org/includes/structure.php
<daker> line 155
<godbyk> daker: if I change that will is piss off the translators? :)
<godbyk> daker: updated
<daker> updated what ?
<godbyk> daker: I added 2011 to the copyright string.
<daker> LoL man
<daker> godbyk, can you just leave ã 2010 ?
<godbyk> though if I wanted to be really nice to the translators, I'd read the translated string and do a find/replace to replace 2010 with 2010&ndash;2011.  (then the text would be translated.)
<godbyk> sure, I can leave it.
<godbyk> what'd you want me to edit?
<daker> line 155
<daker> Copyright &copy; 2010
<daker> change it to
<daker> &copy; Copyright 2010
<godbyk> daker: done
<daker> can you replace the &ndash; with -
<godbyk> daker: done
<daker> damn it
<daker> why it's not working
<daker> the copyright is still in english :s
<daker> Â© Copyright 2010 The Ubuntu Manual Team - Some rights reserved
<daker> aj i see
<daker> godbyk, change the string with
<daker> &copy; Copyright 2010 The Ubuntu Manual Team - some rights reserved
<godbyk> daker: done.
<godbyk> should it by &copy; or Â©?
<daker> godbyk, it works ã
<godbyk> awesome
<daker> i think we are set
<daker> hannie will be happy
<godbyk> is there a way to get the translated text into a string so I can do a find/replace on it within php?
<godbyk> she will definitely be happy!  thanks for helping out with this.
<daker> can you rephrase ?
<godbyk> I'd like to do something like this:
<godbyk> $temp = getTranslatedString('copyright 2010');
<godbyk> then substitute "2010-2011" in place of 2010.
<godbyk> and then echo the new string back out.
<godbyk> (basically, I want to fix the copyright date without requiring everyone to retranslate it.)
<daker> hmm i see
<daker> i think the only way to do it is
<daker> to download the po files from lp
<daker> then replace copyright 2010with "copyright 2010 - 2011" using the sed command
<daker> then compile the po files
<daker> i can do that but not for now
<godbyk> no, that's too much trouble. :-)
<daker> ok
<godbyk> oh, I see how it works now.
<godbyk> __ returns a string, so it'll be easy.
<godbyk> I was mis-reading the code.
<daker> ah yes yes
<daker> i can do it right now
<godbyk> daker: done
<godbyk> now it says 2010-2011 instead of 2010.
<godbyk> and it's still translated.
<godbyk> yay! :)
<godbyk> daker: oh, hannie asked me if we can translate the Buy the book! star on the front page.  I didn't know if we could or not.
<daker> godbyk, impossible it's an image
<godbyk> I figured.  We'd have to create a new image for each language, I s'pose.
<godbyk> We'll save that sort of work for the new site.
<daker> yes
<godbyk> is there anything else you need me to do on the site?
<daker> the new one ?
<godbyk> the existing/old site.
<godbyk> any other little tweaks while I'm already logged into the server?
<daker> now, we are set
<daker> no*
<godbyk> cool
<godbyk> well, thanks again for your help, daker.
<godbyk> I saw your interview/blog post recently.
<godbyk> Looks like you've been designing website for other projects now, too.
<godbyk> I feel a bit jealous. :)
<daker> i just got my ubuntu membership ã
<daker> i mean yesterday
<godbyk> Oh, wow. Congratulations!
<daker> :D
<daker> any progress on the manual ?
<godbyk> not that I've heard about.
<godbyk> I'm going to sit down this weekend and force myself to finish the index.
<daker> ok
<daker> i hope we will provide something before the end of the month
<godbyk> me, too.
<godbyk> it'll be embarrassing if natty is released before the maverick manual. ;-)
<godbyk> Time for dinner. I'll be back in a bit.
<daker> time to bed ã
#ubuntu-manual 2011-01-06
<daker> anyone can open the website ? ubuntu-manual.org ?
<godbyk> daker: it timed out for me. let me look into it.
<daker> ok
<godbyk> the server itself is online.
<daker> same for me
<godbyk> I can ssh into it.
<godbyk> daker: can you access http://kevin.godby.org/?  it's on the same server.
<daker> godbyk, yes i can
<godbyk> daker: me, too. it's on the same machine.
<godbyk> still poking and prodding.
<daker> godbyk, O.o
<daker> Domain ID:D158475795-LROR
<daker> Domain Name:UBUNTU-MANUAL.ORG
<daker> Created On:28-Feb-2010 10:45:13 UTC
<daker> Last Updated On:12-Jul-2010 00:11:18 UTC
<daker> Expiration Date:28-Feb-2011 10:45:13 UTC
<godbyk> daker: seems like it's back up.
<godbyk> is it up for you now?
<daker> yes
<godbyk> 'kay.
<godbyk> not sure what the problem was.
<godbyk> I didn't do anything.
<daker> LoL
<daker> godbyk, Expiration Date:28-Feb-2011 10:45:13 UTC
<daker> it's going to expire the next month
<godbyk> I see that.
<godbyk> I think Ben's the registrant.
<godbyk> We'll have to see if he wants to continuing renewing it or if we need to find someone else to step up.
<daker> ok
<popey> is the build process for the developer manual broken at the moment?
<popey> i successfully built it some time ago, but just checked out latest and it barfs during building on the same machine
<dutchie> godbyk: ^^
<ChrisWoollard> which packages to you have
<ChrisWoollard> for the dev manual you now need the upstream texlive packages
<ChrisWoollard> instructions for installing the toolchain are located here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/10.10/DeveloperManual/Toolchain
<ChrisWoollard> I'll be back later if you have further questions.
<godbyk> Hey, popey. Did you succeed in building the dev manual?
<c7p> hey godbyk
<godbyk> hey, c7p. how's it going?
<c7p> godbyk:  nice we are updating the get involved pages with Patrick these days
<c7p> regarding Tex Live, we should replace the Tex Live 2009 with Tex Live 2010 right ? or are we waiting for 2011 version ?
<godbyk> cool
<godbyk> the 2010 version came out just a few months ago. and the 2011 version won't be out until much later this year.
<c7p> ok nice
<godbyk> (they usually aim to release in the summer, but it ends up being late fall before it happens.)
<c7p> Also another question
<c7p> :)
<c7p> take a look on http://ubuntu-manual.org/getinvolved/authors,
<godbyk> 'kay.
<c7p> on the Tex part, the minimun collections are those that are listed on page, right ?
<popey> godbyk: no, only tried once
<godbyk> c7p: I think so.  But the install-pkgs.sh script should catch any that were missed.
<godbyk> c7p: be extra sure to enable the create symlinks option.
<c7p> ok
<godbyk> popey: okay. well, I pulled the latest from bzr and ran 'make' and it worked okay here.  if you're seeing any error messages, let me know. I'm happy to help you troubleshoot it.
<popey> godbyk: http://paste.ubuntu.com/551245/
<godbyk> popey: I think you have an old version of the csquotes package.
<godbyk> popey: are you using the tex live from upstream?
<popey> i think so
<godbyk> (if you're unsure, run 'which tlmgr'. if something shows up, you're using upstream.)
<popey> one mo /usr/local/bin/tlmgr
<popey> so i setup this box when the udm was first announced
<popey> not updated from upstream at all
<godbyk> popey: cool.  okay, run 'sudo apt-get install perl-tk'
<popey> dont know how
<godbyk> then run 'sudo tlmgr --gui'
<godbyk> (Because, hey, who doesn't like a Tk GUI?)
<popey> uh
<popey> its a remote box
<godbyk> oh, okay.
<godbyk> we can do it on the command-line, too.
<godbyk> one sec.
<popey> cool
<popey> i can ssh -x if thats easier?
<godbyk> run 'sudo tlmgr update csquotes'.  see if that works.
<godbyk> (I never use the command-line version, I guess.)
<popey> thats doing stuff..
<popey> thanks godbyk
<popey> The release version of the installation source and the installation media
<popey> do not agree: source: 2010, media: 2009
<godbyk> looks like 'sudo tlmgr update --all' will update all the installed packages. you should do that at some point, probably.
<popey> Please fix your location http://mirror.ox.ac.uk/sites/ctan.org/systems/texlive/tlnet at /usr/local/bin/tlmgr line 4205.
<godbyk> try the --all option.  see if that works around it.
<popey> ok
<popey> same error from --all
<godbyk> 'kay. can we give the gui a try?  (It does most of the behind the scenes.)
<popey> ya, one mo
<popey> bah, give up on that machine
<popey> will install on my desktop instead
<godbyk> 'kay.
<popey> or I'll just cron wgetting the manual from someone else :D
<godbyk> I think they're going go release draft PDFs regularly.
<godbyk> you might also try 'tlmgr update --self'. that'll update tlmgr itself first.
<godbyk> not sure if it'll get over the 2009/2010 transition though.
<godbyk> (I know the gui can, not sure how to do it on the cmd line right off.)
<c7p> night all
#ubuntu-manual 2011-01-08
<c7p> hello all, any author or editor available ?
<Muscovy> I'm around.
<c7p> hey Muscovy
<Muscovy> Hello.
<c7p> we are updating the content of get involved pages
<c7p> i would like to learn what are you doing as an author through bazzar
<c7p> should i clear it more ?
<Muscovy> Hmm.
<Muscovy> I'm trying to remember what about the page confused me when I first set up.
<c7p> ah that would help also
<Muscovy> A quick video of installing Tex would be great. That took me ages because I didn't understand the instructions.
<c7p> i know :p same here
<c7p> we are planning to make a video, it is necessary
<Muscovy> I'd also like it if the pulling and pushing was at the bottom of the page, so all the setup stuff is together.
<c7p> you mean how the pushing and pulling is done ?
<Muscovy> Yeah.
<Muscovy> Because that's the only part that people will probably come back to until they remember.
<c7p> Muscovy: it isn't written in page so we will write this, actually that's i wanted to ask you
<c7p> as an author you are only using push and pull write ?
<c7p> right *
<Muscovy> Basically.
<Muscovy> Plus the occasional branch and merge.
<c7p> Muscovy:  as an author you are pulling the latest revision you are pushing the work that you have done
<c7p> Muscovy: i got to go, i will come up with the text for this section next time so we can talk about it
<c7p> thanks ! :)
<Muscovy> Alright.
<c7p> bye
#ubuntu-manual 2012-01-04
<c7p> godbyk: ping
<c7p> hello all :D
#ubuntu-manual 2013-01-03
<hannie> Hi my friends. I hope it's not too late to wish you all a happy, healthy New Year
<pleia2> happy new year :)
<YoBoY> it's never too late :) Happy new year everyone :*
<pleia2> and hooray for createspace.com publishing of the 12.10 manual, always nice to see it available for cheaper (I send it to schools, so very helpful!)
<hannie> Yes, it is another step in making our manual available for people all over the world
<pleia2> :)
<pleia2> I brought a few copies to Ghana with me, and we shipped it on all our desktops there
<pleia2> (the pdf version)
<hannie> That is so nice to hear! Well done
<pleia2> the print version was nice though, unreliable power there so folks could read it even when they weren't able to use computers
<hannie> Should you get any feedback, please let us know
<pleia2> will do :)
<hannie> I hope godbyk read this. We're soooo proud of what he does
<hannie> *reads
<CarstenG> Hi at all
<CarstenG> Happy new year!
<hannie> and you too, CarstenG
<CarstenG> Thanks
<cqfd93> Hi everybody, and Happy New Year!
<hannie> hey Sylvie, happy new year. Still in NM?
<cqfd93> yes, untin this Saturday
<cqfd93> *until
<hannie> CarstenG, I am currently installing the daily build of Raring Ringtail
<CarstenG> oh
<CarstenG> nice :-)
<CarstenG> in a VM, I guess :-)
<hannie> If it looks good, I am going to ask our authors/editors to start writing/editing again
<hannie> Yes, in VB
<hannie> *VM
<CarstenG> I guess we will make a team meeting before the start?
<hannie> Yes, but before planning a meeting I want to know if Raring is usable
<CarstenG> sure
<CarstenG> but this can be changed tomorrow :-)
<CarstenG> It's a alpha
<hannie> I think so, yes
<CarstenG> or not yet a alpha :-)
<hannie> As long as it contains enough new features to write about
#ubuntu-manual 2013-01-04
<thorwil> godbyk: happy new year
<thorwil> godbyk: seems we need a new naming convention for the titlepage files
<thorwil> what would have been lulu-nl.svg could be wrap-nl.svg if we wanted it to be generic
<thorwil> but with measurements dependent on the service, createspace-nl.svg might avoid surprises further down the road
<thorwil> godbyk: assuming the vertical bleed is the diff between a4 height and cover size, i only need the spine width now
<godbyk> thorwil: Should we name them something generic like 'cover-LANG.svg'?
<godbyk> Let me get the spine width for you.
<godbyk> thorwil: The spine width should be 24.159456 pt (0.335548 in).  (Gotta love those nice round numbers!)
<thorwil> godbyk: right now with an old lulu and a new createspace cover in one and the same dir, i don't feel well about a generic name
<godbyk> thorwil: We can ditch the lulu covers I think.
<thorwil> btw, we could drop the "titlepage-" for all the single side files
<godbyk> thorwil: True, though it might make it easier to know if the svg is a title page or cover if we leave it.
<thorwil> godbyk: what's with lulu-en_US, then?
<godbyk> thorwil: It doesn't matter too much to me. I just type the names once in the LaTeX script and never think about it again. You're the one who has to edit them all the time. :-)
<godbyk> thorwil: I didn't remove any of the lulu covers, but we can remove them/rename them if you like.
<godbyk> thorwil: Since lulu.com is having trouble printing our books, I'm going to be publishing any new ones through CreateSpace.
<thorwil> godbyk: lulu-en_US of 12-04_precise-e2 is not currently in print?
<godbyk> thorwil: Correct. precise-e2 edition is allegedly available through lulu.com, but if it's not I'll migrate it to CreateSpace.
<thorwil> godbyk: easiest to rename and edit the lulu file, then. don't delete it
<godbyk> For 12.10, I used your lulu cover at the CreateSpace site and it worked okay. They said they scaled it, but I'm not sure why.. the numbers appeared to align when I did the math.
<godbyk> The printed copy of 12.10  from CreateSpace looks fine, though.
<godbyk> thorwil: Okay. I'll leave that up to you.
<thorwil> 12.10 â how come i don't even have thta branch checked out
<thorwil> that, even
<thorwil> godbyk: how about calling the files with "single-" and "double-"?
<godbyk> thorwil: I'm okay with that. Whatever makes the most sense to you is fine with me. :)
<thorwil> godbyk: ok, i'll add the new file as double-nl.svg later on. please take care of renaming the titlepage-*, as that should happen with updating the script
<godbyk> thorwil: I'll do that.
<godbyk> thorwil: Thanks for your help!
<godbyk> thorwil: I'll probably have some more cover requests coming soon, too.  (Just a heads-up.)
<thorwil> godbyk: your welcome. i just take care of crumbs, while you deal with whole slices of the cake :)
<godbyk> Mmm.. cake!  :-)
<godbyk> thorwil: Oh, one more thing to keep in mind with the covers:
<thorwil> s/your/you're/, sheesh as if i have to type the standard mistakes
<godbyk> CreateSpace adds an ISBN barcode to the bottom-right cover of the back cover.
<godbyk> So when you're designing covers, don't put anything vital in that spot or it will be occluded by the barcode.
<godbyk> (With the current covers, this isn't an issue.)
<godbyk> thorwil: As long as you don't harp at my on my bad typing days, I'll leave you alone on yours. ;-)
<thorwil> can you get the position/measurements of the barcode?
<godbyk> Sure. One moment.
<godbyk> thorwil: https://www.createspace.com/Products/Book/CoverPDF.jsp
<godbyk> It's 2" Ã 1.2", but it doesn't give the exact position information.
<godbyk> On the printed copy that I received, the barcode sites Â¼" from the bottom of the trimmed edge and Â¼" from the fold of the spine.
<thorwil> ty. sucks. no way to relate my layout to that
<thorwil> barbarians! :)
<CarstenG> Hi Kevin and Thorsten
<thorwil> ho CarstenG
<CarstenG> Nice to see, that you found another service for printing. :-)
<CarstenG> Do they have the possibility, that the customer can decide during the order process if he wants a color or black/white version?
<godbyk> CarstenG: I can upload a color edition if you like. It'd be quite a bit pricier, I think.
<CarstenG> oh, ok. So the same procedure as at lulu...
<godbyk> CarstenG: Yeah, pretty much.
<godbyk> CarstenG: Whoever publishes the book decides what format (black-and-white, color, hardcover, paperback, page size, etc.).
<godbyk> CarstenG: If you're interested in a color edition, I can create one for you, though.
<CarstenG> I will come with this point back to you, when we have finished the German version...
<godbyk> CarstenG: Okay.
<CarstenG> 28% left to translate...
<godbyk> CarstenG: Take your time.. I have plenty of other translations to publish. ;-)
<CarstenG> Yeah, great. 5 are nearly ready
<CarstenG> and of Malay only the screenshots are missing..
<godbyk> Next on my to do list is to see if I can figure out why French words with apostrophes in them aren't being hyphenated properly.
<godbyk> (It seems like each translation has its own special issues to be worked out. At least we only have to fix the problem once [most the time].)  :)
<CarstenG> You mean something like Â»sâamÃ©liorer.Â« on page 6 of the French version?
<CarstenG> Looks really not aesthetic...
<godbyk> CarstenG: Yeah, they're causing overly long lines in a number of places.
<godbyk> I'm trying to pin down the cause of the problem now.
<CarstenG> Then I have one more problem for you. :-)
<godbyk> CarstenG: What's that?
<CarstenG> The quotation marks in malay are printed as ?
<godbyk> CarstenG: Ah, that should be an easy fix.
<CarstenG> And should be as the english ones...
<CarstenG> ... as Susah wrote in his email.
<godbyk> Ookay.
<godbyk> CarstenG: Are they working on precise-e2 or quantal (or both)?
<CarstenG> on precise-e2
<godbyk> Okay.
<thorwil> double-nl.svg pushed
<godbyk> thorwil: Thanks!
<godbyk> I'll upload it and see if it complains about anything.
<godbyk> thorwil: Oops! I forgot to send you Dutch text for the back cover.
<godbyk> Lemme find that for you.
<CarstenG> I was also wondering about that. :-)
<CarstenG> Only english there. :-)
<thorwil> godbyk: that happens when i switch from debugging clojure, try to figure out why ardour 2 doesn'tbuild and try to finish a titlepage svg ;)
<thorwil> otherwise i surely would have remembered to actually check the text
<godbyk> thorwil: Heh.. no problem! :-)
<CarstenG> This is one idea for the raring manual: Can we include all these texts to the pot file so that they are available on LP?
<godbyk> It looks like it should be the same text as for the lucid-e1 cover.
<godbyk> CarstenG: Possibly. We should look into that.
<godbyk> CarstenG: Hannie and I were talking the other day and we'd like to rewrite this cover text anyway.
<godbyk> thorwil: I've emailed you the old lucid-e1 Dutch covers.  The text on the back cover should be the same for precise-e2.
<thorwil> godbyk: i copied the text from that branch
 * thorwil has them all collected
<godbyk> thorwil: So organized!  (More so than I!)
<thorwil> godbyk: better have Hannie take a look at it
<godbyk> thorwil: I'll do that.
<thorwil> have to run, cya
<CarstenG> Ok, see you tomorrow.
<CarstenG> bye
#ubuntu-manual 2013-01-05
<thorwil> godbyk: i managed to forget to push yesterday
<thorwil> now i have a diverged branch
<godbyk> thorwil: No worries. I had plenty of other ones to work on.
<godbyk> thorwil: You should be able to merge cleanly. Or uncommit, pull, then commit and push.
<godbyk> The only things I've worked on in that repository are with the translation files. So you shouldn't have any merge conflicts with the covers or title pages.
<thorwil> godbyk: chose the uncommit route. good thing the commands have such clear names. cover with dutch backside pushed
<godbyk> thorwil: Got it. Thanks!  I find that the uncommit route usually works best.
<thorwil> a client company made me use a svn hosted by them. i proposed git/bitbucket, but they are not familiar with git. few weeks later, changes to commit after a break. their server unavailable
<thorwil> their being afraid of the new pays off ...
<godbyk> Gah..
<godbyk> I've been primarily using git of late.
<godbyk> Switching between git, bzr, and svn drives me batty sometimes, though.
<godbyk> Some commands are named the same but do different things under different version control systems.
<godbyk> Some commands aren't named nicely.  (git seems especially non-intuitive to me.)
<thorwil> after bzr and git, the not-distributed model feels wrong. even though there is no forgetting to push there :)
<godbyk> I do like being about to commit locally, though, and make branches cheaply.
<godbyk> thorwil: CreateSpace didn't balk at your cover, so I'm assuming it's all good. :-)
<godbyk> thorwil: They do however take a day to 'review all the files' before releasing it for publication however.
<thorwil> ok
<godbyk> thorwil: Assuming everything passes review, the Dutch version of precise-e2 should be available in a day or two.
<godbyk> thorwil: Did I provide you enough info to easily generate the cover?  I just wrote a Python script to do all the math, so I can have it emit more info if you like.
<thorwil> godbyk: paper size and spine width is sufficient, as the bleed is what's left after subtracting 2 times A4 + spine, right?
<godbyk> thorwil: Yep. I think the bleed is 1/8-inch all around (but don't quite me on that).
<CarstenG> Hi
<godbyk> Hey, CarstenG.
<thorwil> hi
<CarstenG> Thosten: You have 10.04 in the Dutch cover
<CarstenG> Sould be 12.04, or?
<CarstenG> Should...
<godbyk> CarstenG: It should be 12.04, yeah.
<godbyk> Did I miss that, too?
<CarstenG> copy paste mistake from lucid :-)
<thorwil> i should be taken out behind the barn and shot
<godbyk> CarstenG, thorwil: I just fixed it and pushed the update.
<godbyk> thorwil: Keep this up and I'll stop brow-beating you into making all these covers for me! ;-)
<thorwil> heh
<godbyk> Looks like I can't upload the new cover until they finish reviewing things. Oh, well.
<godbyk> With that, I'm off to sleep.
<godbyk> Thanks for your help this morning, gentlemen!
<CarstenG> Good night!
<CarstenG> See you
<thorwil> godbyk: nite, cya
<godbyk> G'night, all!
<sagaci>  bang
#ubuntu-manual 2013-01-06
<thorwil> godbyk: double-nl with tweaked layout and non-transparent UMP logo pushed.
<thorwil> yes, really pushed
