#ubuntu-artwork 2006-01-23
<theCore> there isn't much artists here ... ;)
<zuverink> anyone have any good links for ubuntu svg wallpapers?
<mhz> art.ubuntu.com
<mhz> zuverink: i hope that wroks
<mhz> works :)
<zuverink> mhz: What works?
<mhz> zuverink: art.ubuntu.com
<zuverink> ah, year there now
<mhz> the place to download ubuntu svg wallpapers
<zuverink> I am there now
<zuverink> thanx
<pradeeper> hello
<pradeeper> I would like to contribute couple of ubuntu wallpers and icons and stuff like that 
<pradeeper> how can I do that?
<chadwick|359> anybody else having trouble getting on the forums right now?
#ubuntu-artwork 2006-01-25
<lapo> hi
#ubuntu-artwork 2006-01-26
<StudioOne> hello
<StudioOne> looking for the ubuntu font
<StudioOne> the link in the wiki is broken
<Tm_T> apt-cache search font | grep ubuntu
<Tm_T> StudioOne: got it?
<StudioOne> sry
<StudioOne> yeah I found it
<StudioOne> thanks
#ubuntu-artwork 2006-01-27
<foampeace> hi
<foampeace> is this the artwork team?
#ubuntu-artwork 2006-01-28
<lapo> hi
#ubuntu-artwork 2006-01-29
<klepas> anyone awake
<klepas> :)
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<klepas> artnay__: huzzah
<artnay> hello
<artnay> 12:59 [freenode]  (*)  idle     : 6 days 20 hours 48 mins 0 secs [signon: Mon Jan 16 00:01:22 2006] 
<artnay> :o
<artnay> hey AndyFitz
<artnay> damn
<artnay> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-desktop/2006-January/000218.html
<artnay> so nothing new here... :i
<Tm_T> :(
<artnay> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-desktop/2006-January/000219.html
<artnay> damn my PC broke so I ended up to have two broken PCs
<artnay> what a mess
<artnay> seems like artwork teams abilites are being wasted, too bad.
<Tm_T> :(
<Tm_T> I'm sorta crippled too
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-01-22
<troy_s> moin kwwii
<kwwii> howdy troy_s
<kwwii> just arrived in Oslo
<troy_s> good stuff
<troy_s> what is happening in oslo?
<kwwii> mark is not coming, btw
<kwwii> not much yet
<kwwii> canonical distro sprint
<kwwii> but it starts tomorrow
<troy_s> ah yes.
<kwwii> I'll be working on some installer graphics and such
<troy_s> forgot about that.
<troy_s> oh good stuff.
<troy_s> no mark though?
<troy_s> wtf
<kwwii> it is quite normal that he does not come, apparently
<kwwii> anyway, time for sleep
<kwwii> gotta be up early tomorrow
<klepas> d'oh, where can Cimi be :)
<klepas> Trae: ping
<klepas> andreasn: ping
<andreasn> klepas: pong
<klepas> did you get my email?
<andreasn> "putting back the kick in ubuntu-artwork" ?
<klepas> :)
<klepas> yea
<andreasn> ah, yes
<andreasn> yeah, I read it and thought about it for a while
<andreasn> I'm afraid I'm currently deeply involved in other projects, so I'm not sure how much I could help the project really
<klepas> Jono mentioned that ;)
<klepas> no worries then mate :)
<klepas> just poke in to check it out if you have the time :)
<andreasn> did he say: "oh, that dumb fucker promises to draw stuff for everyone, so he's probably pretty busy"  ;)
<klepas> not quite
<klepas> he brought up the kick ass stuff you did for jokosher
<andreasn> :)
<klepas> brb
<andreasn> that's primary what I want to do really, focus on helping application developers produce great apps by helping out with the stuff I'm good at
<coz_> evening all :)
<coz_> well at least I have had ONE evening in a year when people were talking here :)
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-01-23
<alefteris> hi everyone! where can i find the theme used at ubuntu wiki?
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<troy_s> alefteris: what do you mean by theme?
<coleSLAW> kwwii: Ping?
<kwwii> pong
<coleSLAW> So I was thinking maybe just the shadow of a fawn, on a brown background?
<coleSLAW> That would reduce the contrast?
<kwwii> yeah, something like that would be ok, as long as there are not any distince borders
<kwwii> or details
<coleSLAW> That's why I suggested a shadow.
<kwwii> yeah
<coleSLAW> Something really soft.
<kwwii> and the ground that the shadow is on must be soft as well
<coleSLAW> Or perhaps some form of canvas?
<kwwii> not sure if mark even wants any kind of distinct form
<kwwii> yeah
<coleSLAW> A brown canvas with texture?
<kwwii> yeah, something like that would probably work
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-01-24
<alefteris> hi everyone! how can I doublicate a selection with gimp?
<alefteris> where can I find the background image that is used behind the wiki logo?
<alefteris> without the ubuntu text and circle..
<alefteris> so that i can add my own for the loco team
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-01-25
<timmeeej2> hi, I found this wallpaper on the web and I think it's absolutely beautiful to use a wallpaper and I think it should make a perfect Ubuntu wallpaper. Where and how could I submit it to the art-team?
<timmeeej2> this is it: http://interfacelift.com/wallpaper/details.php?id=997
<nysosym> good morning
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-artwork.log
<Renan_s2> Hello, where could I find the Ubuntu logo in SVG format?
* netjoined: irc.freenode.net -> brown.freenode.net
<nysosym> !seen fschoep
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-01-26
<troy_s> coz_ is quiet.
<BHSPitMonkey> -you- are quiet.
<BHSPitMonkey>        zing!
<coz_> troy_s, sorry I was emailing someone
<coz_> :)
<troy_s> lol
<troy_s> i have been at werk
<troy_s> where the hell is TheSheep
<troy_s> no development out of my end at all for the past few days.
<coz_> troy_s, what development are you speaking of
<troy_s> just random private bits of such and such
<coz_> i see
<coz_> so has anything changed at all for the ubuntu team?
<troy_s> Not terribly important really.
<coz_> have ny of you confronted shuttleworth
<troy_s> Nothing to confront him on ;)
<coz_> mm thats confusing
<troy_s> The issues at hand simply aren't a priority for him.
<coz_> ok I think we may be talking abou different issues. which issues are you referring ot/
<coz_> to
<troy_s> The art and design end of things...
<coz_> troy_s, well of course not he is a programmer
<troy_s> I don't exactly buy the 'discreet' archetypes approach.
<coz_> mm
<troy_s> I tend to think that abilities are very blurry -- society tends to put the labels on things.
<troy_s> That said, the desire factor is certainly low.
<troy_s> And therefore, the product of the energy is reflective of said desire -- generic drudge.
<coz_> as i said...
<coz_> so what is the point of the art team?
<troy_s> There is no point.
<troy_s> Other than to attempt and organize as you see fit
<troy_s> and attempt to generate something that perhaps stands a hope of being less than generic sludge.
<coz_> meaning
<troy_s> Meaning it is a free world -- everyone has their ideas.
<coz_> yes?
<troy_s> Execution ultimately is the sword bearer.
<coz_> ok?
<troy_s> And by execution, I don't simply mean execution to achieve generic sludge.
<troy_s> As a quick look at gnome-look would reveal about ten thousand 'themes' that are all practically identical.
<coz_> troy_s, ok understood that...
<troy_s> I believe it is up the individuals of the team to step up and put for progress of some form.
<coz_> agreed
<coz_> and how would that be organized
<troy_s> I think if you ask a hundred people you might get a hundred different replies.
<troy_s> Which ultimately leads to an eddy of nothingness.
<coz_> ok troy_s how do you think it should be organized
<troy_s> Well my background is a deeply rooted in process and documentation.
<troy_s> So whenever I am creatively involved in projects, I tend to prod towards structure.
<coz_> well that is a bit vague can you elaborate
<troy_s> Erm ...
<troy_s> Standard creative process type things.  Work from generalities to specifics over a course of time.
<coz_> so  you see yourself a smore of a facilitator rather than an artist?
<troy_s> Take a group of unrelated elements and attempt to join them / sort them / etc.
<troy_s> Not exactly.  I just have seen well thought through and executed projects and haphazard ones.  I choose the former generally.
<coz_> ok troy_s I am not as clear on what you would do though, I understand your words but am not clear on the specifics
<troy_s> Depends on the project ultimately.
<troy_s> When the project has a larger scope, it needs to be broken down into the smaller elements.
<troy_s> Creatively speaking, I find it is far easier to discuss things with other like minded folks when you have a broad selection / scrapbook of material in front of you.
<troy_s> So I almost always start with a scrapbooking approach for brainstorming.
<coz_> and you would like to lead in this facilitaing proceedure
<troy_s> God no.
<coz_> ok
<troy_s> Not interested.  Ultimately Ubuntu has no interest in being distinct nor innovative
<troy_s> As a result, it is simply not at all interesting within my capacity.
<coz_> really seems that is exatly what the approch was for ubuntu
<troy_s> I don't require a job, I don't require the politics.
<troy_s> Well... yes
<troy_s> On one half I would completely agree with you
<troy_s> In terms of design and scope of what the average user 'perceives' Ubuntu as being
<troy_s> unfortunately, as soon as you get inside of this little ball of wax
<troy_s> it becomes the battle of politics.  the kde / gnome dichotomy etc
<troy_s> Completely irrelevant to the standard audience member.
<troy_s> But again, point one -- Ubuntu has no target audience for its default design.
<coz_> I am not sure it is irrelevant to them it is a preference at the very least in terms of kde and gnome
<troy_s> It is rather like reading the GNOME human interface guidelines -- 'so that _all_ can ...' '_every_ can ...'
<troy_s> complete fallacies.
<troy_s> coz_ KDE and Gnome are completely irrelevant within the greater picture.
<coz_> troy_s, so essentially, a larger plan interms of the "visuals" for ubuntu is needed
<troy_s> if we end up driving a faction war based on superiority of desktops, the real war -- the need to get Free software into everyone's hands is completely missed.
<troy_s> Absolutely
<coz_> troy_s, well. with that I completely agree
<troy_s> You can't cite lauded design attempts (for example, Apple) without citing their process.
<troy_s> The acceptance of the design implications, the absolute attention to design issues, etc.
<troy_s> The time, dedication, devotion, development, reworking, blah blah blah.
<troy_s> Those things don't come from a single fellow sitting down pushing splines and outputting wallpapers.
<troy_s> It simply doesn't work that way.
<coz_> troy_s, true but then no one has reallt been put in that position to decide on such a plan
<troy_s> It takes a keen awareness of the diverse pieces, the overall game plan, and the execution of that plan.
<troy_s> Indeed.
<troy_s> As well as have the abilities to generate that directionality.
<coz_> so therefore all of the "pixel pushers' as you say can be and have great minds for the organization of this
<troy_s> Hard to say... there are many approaches.
<troy_s> Many different ideas.
<coz_> well the appraoches will be different naturally
<troy_s> And perhaps ultimately, many different concepts of aesthetics and design directions.
<coz_> of course
<coz_> well no one pays the art team to develp anything as opposed to apple
<troy_s> I think too, we are missing a good deal of people who can use a fecking pencil.
<troy_s> It isn't exactly about payment.
<coz_> ???
<coz_> the pencil??
<troy_s> Paying someone does not guarantee results -- as you can clearly see from the output of previous instances of the buntu clans.
<troy_s> Yes.  I fear that not enough self proclaimed 'artists' can use a pencil.
<coz_> lol troy_s well I have seen many who could not I kind of agree with you on that
<troy_s> Perhaps utilize mixed media -- sculpture, paint, illustration, etc.
<troy_s> Something that extends your mind to the spheres outside of the immediate target work.
<coz_> troy_s, well my favorite mediums happen to be pencil and clay
<troy_s> And perhaps lets you draw inspiration / directionality by bringing more of that to the table.
<troy_s> Yes, but you have an art degree don't you?
<troy_s> ;)
<coz_> yes
<troy_s> It is one of the primary reasons that I value formal art training
<troy_s> of the BFA variety
<troy_s> it forces you to get your hands dirty as well as learn history and theory
<troy_s> all of which is currently missing in this world.
<coz_> troy_s, well I have seen many great artists who werenot educated
<troy_s> Indeed, but that tends to be the exception rather than the rule.
<coz_> troy_s, formal education can also be an obstruction
<troy_s> Most people who have a vested interest in their craft tend to take it seriously enough to achieve a certain level of education.
<troy_s> Obstructions -- again -- exceptions to the rule.
<troy_s> If I had to say of all the folks that I know in the creative sphere with a great deal of power -- _all_ of them have degrees.
<troy_s> Again, that culmination of practice, theory, and analysis apparently pays off on some level.
<coz_> well thats not because of the education but the paper it is printed on
<troy_s> Not quite following you on that one.
<coz_> well people in positions of power who are in the field are not there because of the education they have or their abilities but rather the paper that the degree is printed on
<coz_> at least to get into the door
<troy_s> coz_ completely disagree with you on that one :)
<troy_s> They are there because they are very good at their craft -- reflected by their 'rounding' of their resume.
<coz_> well my experience says it is true i have seen it not just in the art field but many others as well
<coz_> I would prefer tos ee thier portfolio not their resume
<troy_s> I generally like to see both.
<coz_> troy_s, well if I were hiring someone i woul d not go by degree only by portfolio
<troy_s> Having a great portfolio is one thing, being able to think outside the box is almost always directly related to an academic discussion area.
<coz_> troy_s, well not exactly in my experience... people can talk a great line but cannot produce
<troy_s> And of course, 'great' is a relative term.
<coz_> so is blue
<troy_s> Indeed.
<coz_> it is the person that can transform blue into awe that is more important than if they can describe blue
<troy_s> I would argue that if they were painting with it, they were in fact describing it.
<troy_s> But alas, that is a tad flakey speek for this forum ;)
<coz_> interesting perspective
<troy_s> And again, 'awe' -- "one man's meat is another man's poison"
<troy_s> All just silly terms that are probably more rooted in cultural shifts than those lovely terms 'raw ability' and such.
<coz_> again I disagree I am not an artist that believes art is subjective
<troy_s> Timely and adept execution.
<troy_s> coz_ then we probably sit on completely opposite ends of the polemical spectrum.
<troy_s> Art, like everything else in this real world, is relative.
<coz_> well the term subjective as applied to art is mainly from art dealers of that past
<coz_> they coined a term
<troy_s> Subject to something called the 'general theory of relativity'
<troy_s> whereby _everything_ in the world is relative except for the speed of light.
<troy_s> ;)
<coz_> well not applicable
<troy_s> In fact, dare I say that your aesthetic
<troy_s> is completely different from someone outside your country of origin
<troy_s> etc.
<troy_s> absolutely applicable.
<troy_s> I unfortunately, must prepare myself for my lovely day's work tomorrow
<coz_> well lets leave it at that then
<troy_s> and must depart from this very artsy discussion.
<troy_s> ;)
<troy_s> When you find the single piece of art that everyone agrees is absolutely beautiful, I'll perhaps believe you.
<troy_s> Perhaps even find a good term for 'what is art' even, as a starting point.
<troy_s> Night coz_... nice seeing you here to chat
<troy_s> You often pop on and pop off too fast for me to catch you.
<coz_> well i come here at the times you suggested an still no one talks :)
<troy_s> coz_ I guess it depends on who is on at the time
<troy_s> Sometimes just idling in a channel will let you keep up with when the chittering starts.
<troy_s> Although again, #u-a doesn't have much to chitter about at the moment, nor the forseeable future.
* troy_s is out.  Night.
<coz_> well we amy disagree with our perspectives but unles the artist talk it will die
<msikma> troy_s: by the way, if you have feedback for those screenshots I showed you yesterday, feel free to pass it on to me
<msikma> Like I said on MSN, they're more like doodles
<coz_> msikma, may I see them as well/
<msikma> sure. they're simple implementations of the "wood" idea that has been proposed for Ubun2. I made then while I was working on cleaning up the source file for a theme that I'm working on.
<msikma> http://www.gamingw.net/pubaccess/28695/ubun2_1.jpg
<msikma> http://www.gamingw.net/pubaccess/28695/ubun2_0.jpg
<coz_> msikma, thank you:)
<coz_> msikma, these are proposed themes?
<msikma> nope, those screenshots are just things I came up with yesterday and the theme that I was working on isn't finished yet. I think I once proposed an early version of it as update to Human.
<kwwii> msikma's wood stuff looks awesome
<sfllaw> Indeed.
<sfllaw> kwwii just showed it to me.
<sfllaw> Apricot has great borders.
<sfllaw> http://www.jwz.org/images/1912007101138.jpg
<kwwii> spooky
<coz_> afternoon all
<coz_> taking a break guys, :)
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-01-27
<coz_> evening all :)
<coz_> hello to all
<Cimi> klepas, ping
<klepas> Cimi: pong
<Cimi> ping
<lizardking_> Hello
<lizardking_> is there someone?
<troy_s> howdy lizardking_
<troy_s> what's up?
<troy_s> nice work on oransoda
<lizardking_> Do you read the updated features?
<troy_s> msikma -- are you interested in pulling some colours out of the official palette for the gtk states?
<msikma> GTK "states"?
<troy_s> tried to... not entirely understanding what some of them are.
<troy_s> msikma:  yes like prelight etc.
<msikma> You mean the internal structure of the current default gtk?
<lizardking_> I have ( I think) some problem with Automatic artwork builder..It  has not done the latest r7 revision of oransoda with big changes
<troy_s> msikma: more or less... you can mock the look, i can pull it out.
<troy_s> lizardking_: most of the files would probably need to be added by daniel before the automator will run
<troy_s> as in the makefile.am etc.
<msikma> I'm not sure if I understand, troy_s. Sorry. :P
<troy_s> msikma: erm... shadow colours, prelight colours, inactive states, etc.
<msikma> From the current default Human theme? Why not take a screenshot and sample the colors?
<troy_s> no for u2.
<msikma> Oh, you want me to /make/ some.
<msikma> In that case, sure... I was actually working on a new version of that wooden frame mockup that I showed you before.
<lizardking_> troy_s: Mhh, I think you have not got the matter. I added some features that maybe the bot can parse and package.. read this https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-art/2007-January/003671.html
<lizardking_> troy_s: I do not know how the bot works
<troy_s> lizardking_: it is basically just calling the make
<troy_s> which means the makefile is what controls it...
<troy_s> msikma: i think probably end up running with the amber we have for now.
<troy_s> until it hits a basic state
<troy_s> then work on polishing outwards
<msikma> And then make it evolve.
<troy_s> msikma: exactly
<lizardking_> troy_s: ah so it's a simply bot...okok... Can I tell you my two features?
<troy_s> lizardking_: not a bot -- a cronjob probably that calls make
<troy_s> lizardking_: sure
<troy_s> lizardking_: what are the features?
<troy_s> msikma: if you mock it, just make sure you include refs to the gpl (gimp palette) index
<troy_s> so that I can be sure that I get your colours.
<lizardking_> troy_s: ok  1) First, I added a directory under oransoda-look called mouse where we can customize mouse cursors for a determinate theme
<troy_s> lizardking_: sure -- but you see that will only be added to the bzr repos.
<troy_s> lizardking_: that requires some custom make work
<troy_s> lizardking_: to have it properly drop the files into the proper zones and update xmls / confs etc.
<msikma> I don't have a Gimp Palette for Ubun2.
<troy_s> msikma:  do you know how to use bzr?
<lizardking_> troy_s: 2) I added a  hook in /var/lib/update-notifier/user.d/ with a file descriptor that when a user install the theme, the update notifer alert him that new theme has been installed, and he can select in trough a zenity/gconf2 script..
<troy_s> lizardking_: ah.
<lizardking_> troy_s: Obvisuly, I make sure to changed all makefile.am, and configure.ac to work. Infact I generate myselft the appropriate deb files.
<lizardking_> troy_s: and here in local works. but the cronjob has not generate now deb
<troy_s> weird then...
<lizardking_> troy_s: I was doing a screencast of the new feat added, but xvidcap records too fast for my PC I think...
<troy_s> msikma: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubun2design/+documentation
<troy_s> let me just update the gpl
<troy_s> as it had a typo in it.
<troy_s> msikma: there... it is available off the wiki.
<troy_s> bzr has all the other tidbits in it.
<troy_s> lizardking_: i think you can control the framerate from the cmd line
<troy_s> lizardking_: if your local cronjob automakes properly, then there is something at daniel's end that needs adjusting.
<lizardking_> troy_s: I just compile it with ./autogen.sh && make && sudo make install AND  to buil the deb files ./autogen.sh && dpkg-buildpackage -rfakeroot
<lizardking_> troy_s: Are you trying to compile it?
<lizardking_> You can view my screencast here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRiCO3TacZY
<BHSPitMonkey> uhh, not much of a screencast :/
<lizardking_> BHSPitMonkey: Yes, I know It's a little bad...it's encoded in DivX sorry
<BHSPitMonkey> uhh, not that...
<lizardking_> BHSPitMonkey: ah not that mine?
<BHSPitMonkey> it's youtube (320x240), so that covers the quality, and the main point is that it's a good 3 seconds of the subject theme
<lizardking_> BHSPitMonkey:  Yes I'm not a guru of making screencast
<BHSPitMonkey> meh
<BHSPitMonkey> make one that shows more :)
<BHSPitMonkey> and post it high-res somewhere...
<lizardking_> BHSPitMonkey: Do you Know howto make GIF Animated Screencast?
<lizardking_> at google video?
<BHSPitMonkey> I don't think google video lets you do higher-res than youtube, really
<BHSPitMonkey> it just scales on the viewer page
<lizardking_> BHSPitMonkey: Look at this http://www.iacopomasi.net/content/oransoda.mpeg
<troy_s> msikma
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-01-28
<klepas> msikma: ping
<klepas> troy_s: ping
<klepas> Trae: ping
<msikma> pong
<lizardking> ping all
<darkmatter> yo'
<klepas> hey chaps
<klepas> msikma: what time suits you in regards to meeting online for an hour or two?
<PingunZ> troy_s, poke
<PingunZ> I'm back :)
<troy_s> pingunz
<troy_s> greets friend
<troy_s> msikma
<troy_s> pingunz i see you made it official on the team :)
<PingunZ|afk> troy_s, yup
<PingunZ|afk> troy_s, I'm _back_
<PingunZ|afk> but I'm afk again ^^
<PingunZ|afk> later
<troy_s> pm me when you are in pingunz
<troy_s> msikma -- pm me when you are around.
<troy_s> lizardking__: you should wiki your knowledge over getting oransoda into shape
<troy_s> lizardking__:  it would be helpful and go one more step towards getting some infrastructure in place.
<kwwii> hi troy_s
<lizardking__> troy_s: hi
* kwwii just returned from oslo (the horrible two hour trip that took two days)
<troy_s> greets kwwii
<kwwii> lizardking__: we based the example artwork package on your stuff...might want to look into that
<kwwii> dholbach simplified stuff a bit
<troy_s> the artwork autopackager needs to extend beyond artwork of course.
<troy_s> as sound design, etc. all are viable targets.
<kwwii> troy_s: very true
<troy_s> i was discussing with dholbach about working on getting a better set of syntax rules in place
<troy_s> but alas, last week I had to go shoot minis.
<kwwii> I think my first work on this stuff will be to get an html preview of available packages ready
<lizardking__> troy_s: So by now autopacker is not ablt to package my art, right?
<troy_s> lizardking__: well theoretically yes
<troy_s> lizardking__: because it is nothing more than automake etc
<troy_s> which can be made to do anything...
<kwwii> lizardking__: if you look into the example-artwork package you'll find that all we ded was take yours and change the names everywhere
<lizardking__> troy_s:  What Should I add to wiki? I will do it if I undestand..
<troy_s> but in the more practical sense
<troy_s> we need some macros to handle easy bits like ADD_FILE(source, dest) type structure
<troy_s> in a singular file
<troy_s> so that your 'average' artist can handle the syntaxing.
<troy_s> but again, it still needs to accommodate audio, cursors, python scripts, etc.
<troy_s> and have them all land in the proper directories.
<troy_s> python is probably going to be a heavy player
<kwwii> troy_s: yeah, it would be cool if we could get is to be as easy as writing a wiki page
<lizardking__> troy_s: Yes, this is the first difficult for Gnome artist. There isn't a main all theme manager. and Ubuntu artist staff should hacks with theese macros
<lizardking__> kwwii: yes it would be cool as wiki! I agree
<troy_s> lizardking__: macros are probably as a good spot to start as any
<troy_s> macros in a singular file... as automake poops out files everywhere that are confusing for typical folks.
<troy_s> probably need to brainstorm a good set of possible targets, and build from that.
<lizardking__> troy_s: Adding one features to current blubuntu-look is so difficult, because artis needs knowledge about editing makefile.am et simlia. It is a average knowlede. We must abstract the adding mechanis to simplify things
<lizardking__> troy_s: yes I agree we must make a brainstorm on that
<lizardking__> kwwii: What is the example staff based on mine?
<kwwii> erm, i was wrong
<kwwii> just saw that
<kwwii> we used blubuntu
<kwwii> I thought otherwise because we looked at ornasoda quite a bit
<kwwii> as it is, you only have to edit a line of files to be installed
<lizardking__> kwwii: ok ok
<kwwii> in setup.py
<lizardking__> it Seems goods this way
<kwwii> time for dinner
<kwwii> bbl
<lizardking__> Good dinner! for me it is time to go
<kwwii> yeah, we need to test it out and add a lot of stuff probably
<lizardking__> kwwii: yes, well said
<kwwii> but we can improve it through time and testing
<lizardking__> kwwii: sure
* kwwii cooks
<lizardking__> kwwii: Have yet some similar python script or it will be done froms scratch?
<lizardking__> I must go out . however I always stay on channel with other computer in the user called lizardking
<lizardking__> if you want to report me something wirte there
<lizardking__> Where I can find logs of this irc channel?
<troy_s> probably easily accomplished with a syntax parser that Daniel would develop -- as he is the build meister.
<troy_s> It needs to work for _him_
<troy_s> and that means that ultimately he needs to think it through.
<torrrrr> hi
<torrrrr> my new ubuntu keep forgeting its DNS setup
<torrrrr> I have made a location in thet network tool
<torrrrr> and set up nicely the network DNS
<torrrrr> and it keeps forgetting about them!!!
<troy_s> uh
<troy_s> wrong forum
<troy_s> but i could probably helpy ou
<troy_s> make sure that your DEFAULT /etc/network/interfaces file is set to auto
<troy_s> for everytihng
* mode/#ubuntu-artwork [+o troy_s]  by ChanServ
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-artwork:troy_s] : Welcome to #ubuntu-artwork!  Discuss please -- https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/artwork-package-parser
* mode/#ubuntu-artwork [-o troy_s]  by troy_s
<PingunZ|afk> troy_s, can I pm you ?
<troy_s> go PingunZ|afk
* troy_s is out for an hour.
<troy_s> ill get back to you if you idle on.
<PingunZ|afk> ok
<torrrrr> I am a bit dislectic aparently ... though artwork for network
<torrrrr> anyway troy_s, I have there: auto eth0
<torrrrr> iface eth0 inet static
<troy_s> torrrrr: Your wireless will be eth1
<troy_s> PingunZ: back momentarily.
<PingunZ> troy_s, hey
<PingunZ> pm ?
<PingunZ> this channel is fine as well
<lizardking> Hi all
<PingunZ> hey lizardking
<troy_s> go pingunz... you can pm me if you wish.
<PingunZ> ok
<troy_s> lizardking: You might want to lend your thoughts to that spec
* darkmatter yawns...
<darkmatter> afternoon all
<troy_s> greetings darkmatter.
<lizardking> troy_s: I'm reading the wiki spec. i'm quite busy now
<troy_s> lizardking: ditto.
<troy_s> oh god
<troy_s> not joejaxx
<joejaxx> LOL!
<troy_s> Everyone hide.
<lizardking> troy_s: I do agree with the spec. One thing that I don't undestand it s the LizardK's use case.. Who is the persone that accept or reject the spec?
<troy_s> Well it is more a brainstorming page for us
<troy_s> so that we have something to take to daniel
<troy_s> and he can think it through and see if it is a possibility
<troy_s> if _anyone_ can make it happen, Daniel can.
<lizardking> troy_s: mHH daniel is quite a boss :D
<troy_s> He is darn skilled at making things reality.
<lizardking> troy_s: I think we must realize this spec to provide wide theme development from usplash to fonts..
<troy_s> Well... wide theme spec is a level of abstraction higher
<troy_s> we first need a technique for swiftly integrating elements.
<troy_s> the likelihood that anyone with any skillset is going to contribute to the default ubuntu pattern is low.
<lizardking> it is a good features for Daniel! Troy I'm leaving.. See u afer or tomorrow..
<troy_s> so it will require an infrastructure in place to allow for outside community based work.
<troy_s> lizardking: chat soon.
<lizardking> yes infact I said wide theme develpoment not wide theme switching ;) it is a lower layer ;D
<troy_s> i agree.
<troy_s> but yes... we need to brainstorm what would be required and possible 'easy' syntax for the creative design framework.
<lizardking> troy_s : Yes the keyword is brainstorm..brainstorm! i'm leaving because my girlfriend is requesting me :D see U later
<troy_s> lizardking: chat soon my friend.
<troy_s> lizardking: if you get a second or two, see if you can make that idea better.
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-01-21
<kwwii> good morning all
<lapo> hi
<thorwil> hi nand! have a look at the last 2 on http://thorwil.wordpress.com/
<nand> thorwil: hi! I like the second one, original ! It breaks the long title
<nand> and concerning the ideas title, I also like the last one
<thorwil> nand: how do you feel about the font?
<nand> it is ok, IMO it is clearly lisible, and i like the ubuntu font :)
<thorwil> nand: lisible?
<nand> hmm... readable?
<thorwil> ah! :)
<nand> sorry about my frenglish :)
<nand> did you modify the idea logo? There is a new white area on the ubuntu logo
<thorwil> nand: i created the missing letters from the u b n t. since they are still rough, i will have to tweak them some more
<thorwil> nand: no, the logo is untouched. except if i did something by accident. don't see it, though
<nand> I'll show you
<thorwil> nand: wait, i see it
<thorwil> ARG!
<nand> :)
 * thorwil hits himself
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-01-22
<kwwii> _MMA_ is a punk
<thorwil_mibbit> stupid auto away
<thorwil_mibbit> kwwii: i thought he wears all black leather and has long hair, but a punk? :)
<kwwii> hehe, I meant a punk in the metaphysical sense :p
<kwwii> he is a long haired rocker guy
<_MMA_> kwwii is a _pretend_ punk.
<kwwii> ;-)
<_MMA_> :)
<kwwii> hrm, have any of the emails I sent today made it to the list?
<_MMA_> kwwii: Last one I have is from the MeMaker guy.
<kwwii> hrm, freaky
<kwwii> it seems the mail relay does not want to let my mails through
<_MMA_> Maybe something is up. I woke up to noticeably less emails from the lists.
<kwwii> oh well, not much I can do but wait
 * thorwil summons nand
<thorwil> hmm, didn't work
<thorwil> comments anyone?  http://thorwil.files.wordpress.com/2008/01/banner_bugs_brainstorm_02.jpg
<andreasn> nice
<thorwil> ty
<andreasn> thorwil: would you be interested in helping to come up with a logo for the gnome accessibility project?
<thorwil> andreasn: i have several things on my list. what's the timeframe?
<andreasn> no hurry really
<andreasn> I have one proposal that I was thinking of sending to the gnome-themes list tonight
<thorwil> andreasn: can't promise anything, but if there's no hurry i might
<andreasn> cool
<thorwil> if you just need a critical eye/mind ... that i can offer almost any time ;)
<thorwil> andreasn: i'll be gone in about 10 minutes, though
<andreasn> are you subscribed to gnome-themes list?
 * thorwil checks his too large subscriptions folder
<thorwil> seems so :)
<andreasn> :)
<thorwil> good night!
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-01-23
<phineas> hi
<kwwii> _MMA_: stop being so mean to everyone :p
<_MMA_> hehe. I was wondering how long till you said something in here. :)
<_MMA_> kwwii: I responded and changes the topic so as to not keep the thread off-topic.
<_MMA_> *changed
<kwwii> _MMA_: yeah, I personally didn't think you were being overly aggresive
<_MMA_> kwwii: Naa... Me neither. Most people don't like the opposite view posted as the 1st response to their post. I can understand that but, oh well.
<kwwii> yepp, oh well
<_MMA_> kwwii: I have working packages for my Edubuntu effort. I still need to do a Usplash one. Then I can try to get some new art in 'em. :P
<kwwii> killer, have you pointed that out to ogra yet?
<_MMA_> Not yet. I'm gonna get something to show besides the packages 1st. Also, as this is a casual effort, I'm really only looking to have something for +1.
<kwwii> cool
<thorwil> as much as i want to be tolerant of non-native speaker - being one myself - i think in the case of mr. sorin the language barrier is a little high
<_MMA_> Yeah. Im addressing his post now (and for a final time).
<thorwil> anyone else having trouble to understand what he's getting at sometimes (while it's perfectly clear in other cases)?
<_MMA_> He just doesnt agree with me saying I dont think Aurora should exist.
<thorwil> _MMA_: yes. but i don't think he understands your argument on a ... semantic level
<thorwil> like communication on mailing lists wasn't hard enough just so :)
<_MMA_> Sure. Thats why this will be my last post about it.
<_MMA_> ;)
<thorwil> heh, good
<thorwil> andreasn: i have been thinking ... of scary hands with eyes in them. but then the picture of a bridge appeared
<andreasn> thorwil: hm, for the a11y-thing?
<thorwil> yes
<andreasn> need to run, can I grab you later?
<thorwil> andreasn: sure
<andreasn> great!
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-01-24
<lapo> hi
<coz_> hey guys anyone know where submissions for ubuntu hardy starup log ogg and log on souunds wold be/
<coz_> troy_s, you avialable?
<coz_> hey guys
<coz_> music submissions  are these taken care of by the art team as well?
<kwwii> coz_: yes
<coz_> kwwii, cool where and how would i do this   I am already a memeber of the art team but this is a first for me
<kwwii> coz_: you can send them to the mailing list (ubuntu-art)
<coz_> kwwii, ok I will try to do that
 * _MMA_ readies his thrash-metal system sound theme. \m/
<kwwii> :p
<coz_> kwwii, ` I need an ear for this one wav   on windows I hear no click on linux i do  and it may just be my sound card   if I upload  in pm can you listen for a possible click at the end?
<_MMA_> Just a FYI, the GDM sound currently doesnt work on Hardy. Im trying to sort this out but sound issues are a bitch.
<kwwii> cool, I am soo sick of those sounds
<_MMA_> Well the login/out sounds do. Just not the sound when GDM 1st pops up.
<_MMA_> And in Ubuntu Studio its weird. Our system sounds work but not login/out.
<_MMA_> We mirror what Ubuntu has installed also.
<somerville32> Is the login sound handled by GDM or Gnome?
<somerville32> They are set in two different places IIRC
<kwwii> freaky
<kwwii> well, time for dinner...night all
<_MMA_> Its kinda odd. I think the 1st one, then the login/out are hooked to GDM but you can then set login/out with gnome-sound-properties.
<lapo> hi
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-01-25
<coz_> hey guys
<coz_> hey troy_s
<simon360> Anyone know where the Ubuntu icon on the top Gnome panel is hidden, so I can cyhange it to something else so my derivative of Ubuntu cooperates with trademark?
<crimsun> simon360: ubuntu-artwork: /usr/share/icons/hicolor/48x48/apps/distributor-logo.png
<simon360> Thanks :D
<simon360> I'll try it out
<simon360> why is it in such a remote place?
<simon360> oh, and sorry if I came off as frustrated, since I was, looking all day
<simon360> hmm... apparently not
<simon360> still unchanged
<terlmann> aftnoon alls
<terlmann> Im feeling peachy
<terlmann> everything ubuntu failed in mint has satisfied
<terlmann> I feel like a crack addict.. on crack.
<terlmann> I'm taking c++ and at the head of my class
<terlmann> if I had a camera I would take you some art :-)
<crimsun> I don't think Ubuntu has "failed", then, but that's another matter altogether.
<terlmann> well I just have some particuarities
<terlmann> browser window style nautilus navigation
<terlmann> automatic terminals
<terlmann> (in every folder)
<terlmann> root password specification(actually better off)
<terlmann> better off as in sudo works
 * _MMA_ sets terlmann to ignore. Best for everyone to do the same.
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-01-26
<nothlit> simon360: i find you have to change every instance (ie every size)
<nothlit> well, actually i'm simplifying, i'm lazy and copy the theme i'm using, delete all instances of distributor logo and plop whatever version i want into the scalable
<nothlit> simon360: its set like that because it can change with the icon theme
<nothlit> and the folder structure itself has been already worked out by the guys at freedesktop.org
<simon360> nothlit: it was the icon cache causing the problem
<simon360> </delayed reaction>
<coz_> hey guys
<troy_s> coz_: hello cozzy
<coz_> troy_s, hey guy :)
<coz_> I have been in an out of here  and you seem to never be here :)
<troy_s> Well I'm always 'here'
<coz_> then I remembered that this was the best  time
<troy_s> coz_: Just sometimes not around... busy schedule here.
<coz_> troy_s, I understand
<coz_> troy_s, i wanted to ask about submitting sound  for hardy
<coz_> troy_s, I joined th e mailing list  "again"  and  asked there but no response so far
<troy_s> phone
<coz_> phone?? :)
<troy_s> ok back
<troy_s> yes...
<troy_s> coz_: Between cell phones and land lines... ugh.
<troy_s> coz_: Ken replied already, perhaps your mail is being junked from the list
<coz_> troy_s, ah  ok  I will check again  let me see.....
<troy_s> you can post them in an archive file to this list.
<troy_s> --
<troy_s> Ken
<troy_s> coz_: Don't be holding your breath.  The FOSS aesthetic and such being what it is.
<troy_s> coz_: We are more stylistically bankrupt than the worst days of MS.
<coz_> troy_s, yikes I never get good news here :)
<coz_> troy_s, no I dont see any response so far but I guess I can wait  sort of :)
<coz_> troy_s, so how are things with you ?
<troy_s> coz_: good thanks
<troy_s> coz_: Yourself?
<coz_> troy_s,  not bad  ... just busy sometimes
<troy_s> coz_: Getting a plethora of requests via email... doubt I can keep up.
<coz_> troy_s, requests?
<troy_s> coz_: Been generating any work?
<troy_s> coz_: Everything from opinions on work / websites / etc. to developing various bits.
<coz_> troy_s, well no  not really... #compiz-fusion and the compiz forums have been keeping me busy
<troy_s> coz_: Weird considering that I am such a bloody hack, but alas...
<coz_> :)
<troy_s> coz_: You need to generate more work you stinker.
<coz_> troy_s, well you know  ... you are right.. I keep telling myself if I moved to europe I would do more work :)
<troy_s> coz_: Sounds like one of those mainstream excuses :)
<troy_s> coz_: Although I can definitely appreciate the crippling paralysis of generating work that matters.
<coz_> troy_s, yeah
<troy_s> coz_: I tend to think that is more what it is about.  The idea of sitting down to generate a piece that consumes hideous amounts of time that may, in the end, be purely frivolous garbage.
<troy_s> coz_: Finding that key thing that matters is probably a good starting point.
<coz_> troy_s, well  i dont know if you start a piece  ..at least half way through it it should be apparent it is crap or not   dont you think?
<troy_s> coz_: Sometimes.  Sometimes fighting through ends up with something that is decent.  Sometimes I _must_ fight through the crap to get to something decent.
<troy_s> coz_: In the end, I'd say that I find the bulk of any effort a large pile of 'hey that's pure shit' when looking back.  lol.
<coz_> troy_s, yeah but it builds a nice vocabulary  of crap so  you dont have to repeat it lol
<troy_s> lol
<troy_s> coz_: To be honest, all one can hope for is to keep generating 'like' crap so that you end up with a body of work that is at least more or less consistent.
<coz_> troy_s, right if you have the motivations and the experience behind you  thats the way to do it
<troy_s> coz_: I have finished at least two videos for example, that were absolutely smashingly depressing when finished.  The 'this is absolute crap and we are doomed'.  Then you win an award or something stupid and somehow it feels validated.  I don't really know where to sit on it.
<coz_> troy_s, too may times I have seen smudges of color and people say its art they have created or they copy a photograph of someone in pencil and  voila  " i am an artist'
<coz_> that background of crap is important I think to all artists
<troy_s> coz_: I _would_ like to see more politically motivated and message driven works coming out of our 'culture', but I fear it is still too immature.
<troy_s> coz_: Mimisis is a strange thing.  I appreciate it when it is extremely deft and detailed, despite it being largely vacuous.
<coz_> troy_s, political work takes a certain kind of artis
<troy_s> coz_: Well the sad thing is that in some strange way, _everything_ is political and contextually bound.  Even the blatently backwards replication of imitation using reflective wet floors is making a statement (albeit one that disturbs me all to hell).
<coz_> you have heard of odd nerdrum/
<troy_s> can't say i have actually, no.
<coz_> troy_s, I believe he is a norwegian artis
<coz_> artist
<troy_s> i see
<troy_s> his stuff is vaguely rococo
<troy_s> ok i take that back... it is quite ecclectic.
<coz_> once saw a show of his work here in the us  very nice very unique he does things from bery rebrandt like to quite loud
<coz_> i appreciate his nudes mostly
<troy_s> he seems to play on using classical genres
<coz_> although the content of some of the pieces can be disturbing like " My wife stabs me "  or something to that effect
<troy_s> which is why i immediately spit out rococo
<coz_> i see
<coz_> he has gone through all of the painting "styles" from rembrandt to  impressioninsm
<troy_s> yes... interesting
<troy_s> interesting is that his work was featured in 'the cell'
<coz_> ah really
<coz_> He is the first painter I have seen   that i admired  for his nudes      I know several people that also do figures in their work but the compositions are truly boring
<coz_> a friend of mine  John Delmonte   is a fine figure painter but I find most of his work to be boring
<coz_> troy_s,   http://www.westpennart.com/images/
<coz_> troy_s, he lives close by and on occasion we talk  because there are not many in our area interested in  good paintings :)
<coz_> He teaches each summer in Luca
<troy_s> lol
<coz_> He wanted me to to teach there as well but i just cant afford going there each summer
<coz_> he was also close friends with pere max
<coz_> peter
<troy_s> hrm...
<troy_s> interesting
<coz_> i hate him
<troy_s> he has some darker sort of rubenesque looking images too... interesting.
<coz_> yeah john trys purposly to emulate some of the styles of traditional painting
<coz_> but he does whip them out quickly
<troy_s> coz_: Well coz_, I need to go and snag a really cheap switch.
<coz_> troy_s, sure guy
<coz_> tell whats his name to send another response to my rquest :)
<troy_s> coz_: Next time you ping me, you had better have something new to show.  ;)
<coz_> troy_s, ok thats a challenge but ok
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-01-19
<SealV> how do I learn how to post to the mailing list?
<thorwil> SealV: well, there's surely something about that in the wiki, but i might be able to help you
<thorwil> SealV: what is the problem? are you subscribed?
<SealV> I am subscribed, and I get the list compact, I just dont really know how to post
<thorwil> SealV: you post by maling to  <ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com>
<SealV> does that start a new topic? if so how can I reply to a topic in progress?
<thorwil> SealV: i strongly suggest that you switch off the digest mode, as you can't reply properly in threads with it
<thorwil> SealV: that would start a new topic, yes
<SealV> turned off digest
<thorwil> SealV: which mail client do you use?
<SealV> just gmail
<SealV> I was thinking about setting up thunderbird though
<_MMA_> SealV: If you use Gmail, *please* don't top-post. I use Gmail with Thunderbird just fine.
<SealV> I am guessing top-posting is creating useless new topics right? Setting up t-bird...
<thorwil> _MMA_: a while ago i saw someone in the forum stating how hard to read mailing lists are due to all the again-and-again-quoted text :}
<thorwil> SealV: no, top posting means putting your answer above the text you refer to
<_MMA_> http://www.ubuntu.com/support/community/mailinglists/etiquette#head-c70bc55ce24849bd82885e8b0f7e972465944b5a
<SealV> ah
<_MMA_> thorwil: That's to do with people not editing things down to the text they are replying to.
 * _MMA_ shrugs.
<thorwil> _MMA_: really? my point was rather how a bad example leads to a bad impression for a user who never saw how it should be
<SealV> jaunty final should have color changing wall.
<_MMA_> Call me an old grouchy guy, but it's up to them to get with how things are. If they don't like ML formatting, use the forums. I know Studio maintains a presence on all 3 for this reason. (ML, forum, IRC)
<thorwil> yah, because it's too easy to make a good static wallpaper enough people like
<_MMA_> SealV: In my experiments, it's been pretty CPU intensive.
<_MMA_> (while the fade happens)
<SealV> I have always wondered about that thorwil, why cant we just put up a poll in the forum and have everyone vote
<SealV> top 2 make it in or whatever
<_MMA_> SealV: On what? Final wallpaper? Because it's a Canonical decision.
<SealV> ah. didn't know that
<_MMA_> It could however work for what goes into the community package.
<thorwil> i have zero faith in the sum of people subscribed to the art mailing list
<SealV> I think it would be a good idea for the community package.
<_MMA_> thorwil: It's a shame for sure, but I think all the people who have a clue know each other and give weight to those opinions.
<kwwii> from now on I am only responding to any question with "me too!"
<SealV> me too!
<kwwii> *exactly*
<thorwil> kwwii: why is that, me too?
<Nece228> hi
<Nece228> im using arch linux now, but i like ubuntu theme so i copied ubuntu theme to arch linux
<Nece228> everythink is almost great, except some icons are still missing like sound file icon, or appearance icon
<Nece228> is there any way to have these icons on my arch linux?
<SealV> huh? isnt a gnome theme a gnome theme? what are you using for a DE?
<_MMA_> Nece228: Human icons depend on GNOME set.
<Nece228> i copied icons from ubuntu intrepid, and i have 2.24 version in arch too
<Nece228> thats quite strange
<SealV> copy over the gnome set as well
<Nece228> ok, i will try
<Nece228> because now i cant restart my pc
<SealV> do REISUB
<SealV> or ctrl alt backspace
<Nece228> well, i need to boot ubuntu 8.10 live cd and copy icons from live cd to arch linux partition
<SealV> wait hold on I can up it for you
<Nece228> thanks but my connection is slow
<SealV> k then
<Nece228> 128 kbps
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-01-20
<thorwil> kwwii: so robsta works at intel now and currently has no time for the gtk-css-engine
<andreasn> robsta, oh, I didn't know that. Congrats to the new job!
<robsta> thanks andreasn, it's only for 3 months to get them some css work done
<andreasn> ah, ok. Are you located in London while doing it?
<robsta> no
<kwwii> thorwil: ouch, that sucks :(
<kwwii> I mean, good for him, bad for css themeing in gtk :)
<kwwii> robsta: if you make it to london, let me know and we can go out for beer :-)
<thorwil> robsta: oops, i blindly assumed your absence. hi :)
<robsta> kwwii: sure! probably not anytime soon though
<robsta> kwwii: i can still review patches, i guess :)
<thorwil> robsta: btw, the last group of widgets in my svg file are meant to be comboboxes. so the strange edges are meant to be a hint at the menu functionality
<robsta> thorwil: the yellowish ones at the very bottom?
<kwwii> robsta: my days are now spent going through all the package in main which use notifications to get things to work with out new notification system...that is enough source code for me :p
<thorwil> yes
<robsta> thorwil: or the set in the middle, with the up/down arrows?
<thorwil> robsta: up/down arrows are spinners
<robsta> thorwil: btw, have you heard of "parasite"
<robsta> ?
<thorwil> robsta: no. what is it?
<robsta> thorwil: firebug for gtk, http://www.chipx86.com/blog/?p=292
<thorwil> robsta: nice. not quite in my area of work :)
<robsta> thorwil: sure? you'll soon use for app-specific tweaks in css themes :P
<thorwil> robsta: you mean in 3 months plus? ;)
<robsta> thorwil: _plus_
<darkmatter> cool... this is turning out better than I expected.. now do make a uber aesthetically pleasing theme and do some decent mockups
<robsta> darkmatter: mind doing it the other way 'round?
<darkmatter> well.. I suppose I could just use clearlooks or gilouche or whatever.. It should look good enough with almost any graphics
<robsta> darkmatter: not sure i'm following
<darkmatter> robsta: lol.. probably because you haven't been around long enough :P for the past two years or so (about 2 1/2) I've been working on an evolutionary UX (first year or so was mostly related to the basic concepts, gender HCI, cognitive psychology, and other research.. because going 'this is cool' is stupid.. if it's not logical, functional, humane, et al in theory then its not cool)
<darkmatter> the remaining time was spent working on finer details and stuff.. the concept has come far enough that it's time to clean up/mock up and publish
<darkmatter> and then, hopefully, put into code
<robsta> darkmatter: oh, i thought you were responding to "parasite"
<darkmatter> oh.. lol.. nah..parasite looks awesome though
<lord_1053> hi
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-01-21
<_MMA_> thorwil: I tell you, Sebastian is a machine. Though I'm a little sad more people aren't participating.
<kwwii> _MMA_: my experience has been that only one or two people will be very active...there simply is a lack of talented icon artists willing to spend much time on OSS
<_MMA_> kwwii: Oh I know. I woulda liked at least 1 more person. Maybe a push after we have a little more of a set together might get someone. I think putting a release on GNOME-Look might help.
<kwwii> give it some time, I am sure others will follow
<_MMA_> kwwii: I gotta do a little more to get the word out. I've been kinda unmotivated because of stress to do anything other than maintain BZR and the wiki. But I gotta do some more promotion soon.
<kwwii> _MMA_: yeah, I know that feeling
<kwwii> but getting more word out would be a good idea
<kwwii> not sure how easy that it though
<_MMA_> I think throwing a release up on GNOME-Look soon would start to help. Put in a little README about getting involved.
<kwwii> very good idea
<thorwil> if it was only a lack of talented artists. too many fail at basic communication :>
<thorwil> kwwii: what's the plan regarding alpha wallpapers now?
<kwwii> thorwil: there is still some discussion...bascially it boils down to a question of whether we will use a mascot on the final wallpaper or not
<kwwii> thorwil: I had meetings today about just this, expect more info in the next two days or so
<thorwil> kwwii: ok. i would treat wallpapers for alpha and final as entirely separated concerns, but that's just me, apparently
<kwwii> thorwil: right, the point is that we don't want to use a mascot on the alpha wallpaper if we are going to use one with a mascot in the final
<kwwii> and we don't want to start asking for final wallpapers until we have a decent design brief
<thorwil> wow, a brief! it happens!
<thorwil> :)
<kwwii> well, let's wait and see what we comes before we get our hopes up ;)
<kwwii> -we
<darkmatter> http://leuchtstoff.deviantart.com/art/overlay-eye-candy-no-function-97746451 -- neat
<_MMA_> darkmatter: Interesting. Would be a kinda neat screensaver. (not that it would save the screen much)
<darkmatter> _MMA_: not even the screensaver.. just as an overlay is nice.. make's thinkgs seem less virtual/more real
<_MMA_> I said screensaver because I feel it would be a bit distracting as anything else. Just my POV.
<darkmatter> as presented.. probably.. but it's the basic idea that's appealing
<darkmatter> not the actual pattern
<_MMA_> sure
<_MMA_> I'm *postitve* Compiz can handle something like this.
<darkmatter> so. you have a wallpaper that has nice ambiance with well defined 'zones', have an overlay that matches, but if a window moves into that zone 'could add a 'zoom' effect for unfocused to create the illusion od slightly increased distance from focused), any shadows cast would ovelay the unfocused windows in the zones
<darkmatter> it's just another way (purely graphical) to make the interface feel like a physical object
<kwwii> re
 * _MMA_ waves
<primes2h> kwwii: Hello, are you there?
<primes2h> :-)
<kwwii> primes2h: hi
<kwwii> hey _MMA_
<kwwii> just uploaded some old stuff I did with the company I founded 12+ years ago
<kwwii> kinda funny looking at it now
<_MMA_> :)
<kwwii> http://sinecera.de/mbavi.avi
<_MMA_> kwwii: I'm helping Julian get set up on LP. https://launchpad.net/levelhead
<kwwii> and http://sinecera.de/Popstar_Compare.mpg
<kwwii> hehe
<kwwii> wow, that looks neat
<primes2h> kwwii: Hi, I made a patch for this bug #172353
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 172353 in human-icon-theme "Human theme has non-translatable emblem names." [Low,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/172353
<primes2h> This is the debdiff http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/107953/
<kwwii> primes2h: yeah, I saw that email, didn't read it though
<kwwii> what is the point?
<primes2h> Could you please have a look?
<primes2h> hubuntu-icon-theme doesn't have translation support for emblems...
<kwwii> primes2h: looks like a no-brainer to me
<primes2h> human sorry
<kwwii> just adding the right po files
<kwwii> well, pot files
<kwwii> sometimes I wish other people had write acces to this stuff :p
<_MMA_> hehe
<kwwii> it would save me a lot of work
<primes2h> no, It's not that simple.
<kwwii> hrm?
<primes2h> I had to create .icon.in files, change mMakefile.am in scalable/emblems/ and obviously POTFILES.in
<primes2h> I followed gnome-icon-theme structure...
<primes2h> It has translation for emblems...
<kwwii> primes2h: it is shortly after 0:00 here, I will look at this tomorrow, ok?
<kwwii> I am dead in the water, atm
<primes2h> ok! Thanks fo now :-)
<kwwii> if it works and is correct, I think it is a good idea
<primes2h> Ok, but I would like you to have a look.. ;-)
<primes2h> there is also a strange thing happened, but I'll ask you tomorrow..
<primes2h> I'm not used in packaging, patches etc...
<primes2h> yet
<primes2h> I'm leaving, see you tomorrow.. thanks... :-)
<kwwii> oh well, time for sleep
<kwwii> night
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-01-22
<primes2h> kwwii: Hi, I would like to ask you something about human-icon-theme, please :-)
<kwwii> primes2h: sure, shoot
<kwwii> I was thinking about the translation issues...to be honest my specialty is artwork and such, not internationalization
<kwwii> there might be someone who could help you much more/quicker than I can
<primes2h> When I build human-icon-theme (e.g. ./autogen.sh and make) it doesn't update automatically po files.
<primes2h> I need to do it manually going to po/ directory giving make update-po. Is it normaÃ²?
<primes2h> normal?
<kwwii> erm, exactly that kind of stuff is what I really don't understand
<primes2h> ah, ok :-)
<primes2h> who is a specialist of this ?
<primes2h> ;-)
<kwwii> someone in ubuntu-devel could help more (seb128 would be a good start)
<kwwii> #ubuntu-devel
<primes2h> ok, thanks. about icons I would like to ask you somrthing..
<primes2h> different
<kwwii> sure
<primes2h> There is an emblems that in someway is broken.
<kwwii> I can probably help with that :-) what is the exact problem?
<primes2h> Hold on, I'll tell you the name...
<primes2h> kwwii: stockmail-priority-high
<primes2h> when you are dragging it no icon appears....
<primes2h> it has the same icon as important emblems icon.
<kwwii> let me look into it, one second
<primes2h> the strange things is that it's not mentioned in scalable/emblems/
<primes2h> it's not present in it.
<primes2h> and there is an underline on the "m"
<kwwii> my guess is that it is not included in the makefile and is therefor not installed when building the package
<kwwii> sorry, I am doing three things at once, give me a minute
<primes2h> no problem , I'll wait :-)
<kwwii> hrm, this is not in the human theme
<kwwii> maybe it is just a symbolic link, one second
<kwwii> nope
<kwwii> I am guessing that it is not in the human theme
<primes2h> but it takes the same icon as important.
<primes2h> "important"
<primes2h> did you see?
<primes2h> I faced it because using my patch, you get two identical  "important" emblems
<primes2h> dupe
<kwwii> the orange icon with an exclamation point?
<primes2h> with "important" instead of "stockmail-priority-high in the text...
<primes2h> yes.
<kwwii> ahhh, now I see it in the interface
<primes2h> As I was telling you, using my patch you get two exclamation point icons with "Important" in the text
<kwwii> wow
<kwwii> freakky
<primes2h> Looking at the original version, I saw the issue...
<kwwii> when I click on it, it changes to another icon I made for jockey which does *not* belong there
<primes2h> yep
<kwwii> this seems to be an issue for the interface and not the icons
<kwwii> that is really wierd
<kwwii> thanks for bringing this up
<kwwii> can you create a bug and assign myself (kwwii) and seb128 please?
<primes2h> ok, but we need to coordinate all to bring internationalization patch too.
<kwwii> right
<kwwii> you can file a bug for that as well
<kwwii> :-)
<kwwii> bugs are the way to push us canonical employees to get what you want :p
<primes2h> it's already reported bug #172353
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 172353 in human-icon-theme "Human theme has non-translatable emblem names." [Low,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/172353
<kwwii> oh right
<kwwii> I forgot
<primes2h> A last thing.
<primes2h> Did you see a jockey icon when you push it?
<primes2h> I see a sort of blank sheet
<primes2h> of paper
<kwwii> looks normal here
<kwwii> I am guessing you changed the size and that icon does not exist at that size
<kwwii> teh jockey icon does not belong there to begin with though :-)
<primes2h> In fact when I click on jockey icons it appears the same sheet of paper too...
<kwwii> very strange
<kwwii> seems like some wierd name space error or such
<kwwii> or perhaps just a mistake in the interface
<kwwii> not sure
<primes2h> There is another strange thing. There are some icons (Download, default etc.. ) that are not in scalable/emblems/directory but they are translated. It seems that they fallback from gnome-icon-theme (which has internationalization)
<primes2h> But they are not broken..
<primes2h> if you click on them the icon is correct.
<kwwii> well, do they exist as pixmaps in the different dirs?
<kwwii> there are quite a few human icons that we do not have scalable versions of
<primes2h> oh, yes, they are.
<primes2h> That's ok.
<kwwii> dealing with icon themes can get quite tricky
<primes2h> :-)
<primes2h> I still don't understand why they fallback to gome-icon internationalization but it doesn't happen with the scalable ones.
<primes2h> at least those with the same name.
<kwwii> I don't understand that either
<kwwii> internationalization is big and scary :p I know pretty much nothing about how it all works
<kwwii> ouch, I get the feeling that seb128 is on vacation
<kwwii> if you cannot find him in the #ubuntu-devel channel ask pitti
<primes2h> ok, thanks. About the new bug, do i have to add seb128 or pitti instead?
<kwwii> seb128 would be best as he works on the gnome desktop
<kwwii> but pitti is a good fallback as he is seb's boss :)
<kwwii> well, not boss, but technical lead
<kwwii> so he can figure out who to push this on
<primes2h> so , due to seb128 vacation, I'll put pitti and you on the new bug.. :-)
<primes2h> or maybe both... ;-)
<primes2h> pitti and seb128
<kwwii> cool
<primes2h> kwwii: I opened this bug #319991. Have a look and feel free to add any other special comment...
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 319991 in human-icon-theme "Strange behaviour of some emblem icons." [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/319991
<kwwii> primes2h: excellent, thanks
<primes2h> kwwii: Thank you too!
<kwwii> primes2h: it's really great that someone is interested in this stuff, I would never have noticed - I don't use emblems :p
<primes2h> kwwii: I faced this because I'm a member of Italian Ubuntu Translator team, and It's bad to have some part of Ubuntu untranslated, like emblems :P
<kwwii> primes2h: cool...in the meantime I have mentioned this to pitti so he has a heads up on what is coming
<primes2h> kwwii: That's nice! Now I'm going to ask him about po regeneration issue..
<kwwii> good idea, have fun!
<primes2h> Thank you indeed for your help. It's nice to find collaborative people like you...
<kwwii> :) I hope that there are many others just like me - or ubuntu won't keep being what it is today!
<primes2h> I'm surprised once more about this Ubuntu spirit ;-)
<primes2h> Oh, sure... a lot :-)
<kwwii> mpt: wanna see a really wierd bug? right click on a folder and open the emblems tab, then select the stockmail-priority-high emblem
<kwwii> oops
<kwwii> wrong channel
 * _MMA_ waves
<kwwii> hey man
 * kwwii gets lunch
<primes2h> kwwii: I tried it but it seems normal...
<tretle_> cimi?
<tretle_> doesn anyone know if its possible to have two seperate colors for the input box's and the treeviews etc?
<Cimi> ?
<tretle_> yeah, I was going to ask you about gtk colors and the dialog box's, was thinking of leaving it on your site under feature requests but decided it would be much faster to just ask you on irc
<Flaw> Hi, is anyone here 'good' with gradients?
<tretle_> so do you know of any way of having seperate colors for treeviews and dialog box's? I would like the treeviews etc to use a dark color and bright text but I would like the dialog box's to use white bg color on black text to keep visual consistency with websites
<tretle_> right now from the looks of it the treeviews and dialog box's share the same pallet
<Flaw> http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/9153/bodybgti3.jpg
<Flaw> I need that but in green, would anyone be able to do that?
<Cimi> tretle_, you just need to change base and text for gtkentry
<tretle_> cool
<SealV> Flaw you could just open it in Gimp and colorize it
<Flaw> SealV: I don't have much experience with graphics, I usually only do coding on websites.
<SealV> gimme a sec, let me try my luck. could you point to a green that you like/want?
<Flaw> It just needs to be green (royal green would be a good choice) but in a gradient, light to dark, starting nearly white.
<Flaw> Like the blue one.
<Flaw> I've tried using colorize but I get blocks of colour, not a gradient
<SealV> making an svg
<SealV> http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/9914/g3704ep6.png
<SealV> colors are changable very easily now that its an svg
<Flaw> SealV: what's the white on the side?
<Flaw> this image is being repeated vertically, so it doesn't look too good
<SealV> is the white part not supposed to be there? I just imported the png and worked from there, but no worries.
<SealV> http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/651/rect2920py4.png
<Flaw> SealV: sorry, i confused you.
<SealV> no worries :)
<Flaw> the white bit at the top is sup post to be there, just not the white bit on either side
<SealV> no whit bit to the sides.. let me check
<Flaw> on the first one you posted there was.
<SealV> bloody strokes
<Flaw> sorry!
<SealV> hold on I see the prob
<SealV> its the default setting of inkscape
<Flaw> the white bit at the top is suppose to be there, just not the bit on either sides
<SealV> http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/7091/g3750qf7.png
<SealV> try that
<Flaw> thanks! that looks great.
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-01-23
<Cimi> kwwii, that looks a little bit better, though the metacity is something totaly unconsistent
<Cimi> http://www.gnome-look.org/CONTENT/content-pre1/98045-1.jpg
<Cimi> it's not mine, just seen in gnomelook
<_MMA_> Cimi: Its been posted to the mailing list. He has a page on the wiki for it also.
<Cimi> I'm no longer following the mailing list
<Cimi> _MMA_, lucazade (sometimes here on irc) and I are writing a general gtkrc
<Cimi> a "common" gtkrc
<Cimi> useful to use as a base
<Cimi> it cointains the required fix, and doesn't have the weirdness of the current human theme
<Cimi> don't blame me with the "weird" word, unfortunately it is but we could fix it
<Cimi> _MMA_, are you interested?
<_MMA_> Cimi: Sure. Ill take a look.
<_MMA_> Not now though. Im spending time with the family. :)
<Cimi> _MMA_, murrine-themes on launchpad, branch common-gtkrc
<dashua> Cimi: I'm working on getting a better Metacity theme in there.  I just replaced it with DarkRoom for now.
<dashua> I'll take a look at the common-gtkrc.
<Cimi> dashua, I don't like that too
<Cimi> and, at the same time, it can't be a good default theme because there's no separation between the titlebar and the menubar
<Cimi> if you want a good metacity theme, grab clearlooks
<Cimi> I've rewritten it one year ago, it should be quite fast for its complex drawings
<Cimi> edit the gradients to align them to the theme
<Cimi> dashua, which application is on pidgin's right ? on the tray
<dashua> Cimi: Gcalctool ?
<Cimi> dashua, the baloon?
<Cimi> on the system tray
<Cimi> tray != dock
<dashua> Which screenshot, the one on Gnomelook?
<dashua> I pulled the gtkrc template
<dashua> Working in getting it to standard
<Cimi> that gtkrc should be 100 times better than human
<dashua> This theme is blazing fast with the new engine.
<dashua> Awesome
<dashua> I'm rewriting now
<Cimi> which theme?
<dashua> Human-Reprise
<Cimi> dashua, anyway the baloon in the gnomelook's screenshot
<dashua> Feels fast, will be better with the re-write
<Cimi> dashua, which application are you running in the system tray?
<dashua> oh, Xchat-Gnome
<dashua> Notification Icon
<dashua> Sorry, I was looking at the dock
<Cimi> dashua, there are a lot of ugly things inside human gtkrc
<Cimi> for example a lot of things with colors
<Cimi> color-mixings
<Cimi> and similar
<Cimi> please do not add those things
<dashua> Cimi: Ok
<Cimi> use the plain gtkrc
<Cimi> if you want brighter colors use shade
<dashua> I am using gtkrc-common as a template
<Cimi> but don't mix stuff
<dashua> Ok
<Cimi> expecially when human mixes fg with text or selected
<Cimi> omg
<dashua> ???
<Cimi> there are some incredible workarounds
<dashua> I basically just took the old Human gtkrc and added the new murrine options
<Cimi> for example they are using to mix tooltip color with other stuff
<dashua> But a re-write is do
<dashua> I've been watching progress for some time and radical changes are easily overlooked
<dashua> The progressbarstyle you implemented is sure to get some type of attention.
<dashua> I'm trying to use Caramello and MurrinaCream as a base for inspiration while trying to keep to Human
<dashua> Cimi: http://picpaste.com/Screenshot-9.png  Using the template still tweaking ?
<dashua> I omitted half of those workarounds and mostly everything still seems to work.
<MadsRH> Hi. Can anyone tell me why the Ibex background is still being used in Alphas, with all the backgrounds in the https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Jaunty/AlphaBackgrounds
<kwwii> anyone know how to increase the font size in the text entry field, clock, date, and button text in gdm?
<_MMA_> kwwii: If it's not respecting the .xml maybe it's using the gtkrc?
<kwwii> _MMA_: it doesn't respect teh gtkrc either
<kwwii> as far as I can tell
<_MMA_> Hmm...
<kwwii> I tried to add a dark gtkrc and that didn' work
<kwwii> t
<_MMA_> Well things changed to dark though right?
<kwwii> nope
<kwwii> it no longer started
<_MMA_> Then you're missing something.
<kwwii> no, all I did was change the color values
<kwwii> no matter how I changed them it didn'T start
<_MMA_> Mayne there's a gconf key or cache hanging around.
<_MMA_> *Maybe
<kwwii> yeah, I am wondering what the difference is between what is shown in the tester and in the real gdm
 * _MMA_ looks around.
<darkmatter> kwwii: do you mean the gdm 'reboot' ala mac? if so, it's slaved to the distribution defaults.. the only way to change its look (gtk/background/font rendering) is to change those
<kwwii> lol, now I tested it on my other machine
<kwwii> in the real gdm (not gdmthemetester) it does respect the size
<andreasn> kwwii, the new or the old GDM?
<kwwii> andreasn: the old
<kwwii> looking at the real gdm it seems to respect the sizes
<Cimi> fedora has 2.24
<Cimi> wow much better than 2.20
<darkmatter> Cimi: so does openSUSE. and it's not much better than 2.20, it may 'look' better, but it's a bit of a regression functionally. but hey.. this is gnome we're talking about, so no surprise :P
<andreasn> darkmatter, how do you mean?
<darkmatter> andreasn: well... it's basically non-configurable (I don't mean the themeing). and session management *kinda* works, when it feels like it
<tretle> macslow?
<thorwil> bonjour nand! nobody recorded french counting for me and my international counting track project. it's a shame to have no example of such a major language. maybe you know someone with a good voice and equipment who you could persuade to fill this gap?
<nand> thorwil: hey! Sorry, I forgot my mic elsewhere, but I'll be able to recover it in mid february, if you're willing to wait until that
<thorwil> nand: that's too late. at least for the version i want to submit to the ubuntu free culture showcase, as the deadline is the 6th
<nand> thorwil: I'll ask one of my brothers, should be able to do it before that
<thorwil> nand: cool, thanks
<nand> thorwil: I listened to one of your results, it sounded cool :)
<nand> oh, and don't hesitate to remind me that!
<thorwil> nand: thanks! next one will be cooler ;)  btw, you can find the "rules" at http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=6504665
<thorwil> the deadline is history now, of course :)
<nand> thorwil: what do you mean by a beat?
<nand> ("C. "Beat")
<thorwil> nand: one measure at 4/4 has 4 beats. a beat is the thing where you might stomp your feet or clap your hands
<thorwil> nand: if you can't think of a translation, just leave it out
<savvas> thorwil: I hope that the forward to loco-contacts and ubuntu-cy has added some more contributions :)
<thorwil> savvas: sadly not. but thank you for the forwarding!
<savvas> darn
<nand> because the french translation for it has three sylabbers, unlike the english one which has one syllaber. Is it ok?
<nand> "battement" is the french translation of "beat"
<nand> or "rythme"
<thorwil> nand: worth a try. several people repeated the "beat", but the orginal plan was to have it as one-shot
<nand> okay, we'll give a try.
<thorwil> cool :)
<nand> thorwil: could you give me the link of the current compilation?
<thorwil> savvas: what about yourself, didn't you mention several languages?
<thorwil> nand: http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/485382/countint_pre-01.ogg
<nand> thorwil: thanks
<tretle> hmmmm.... this is a bit of an odd question but does anyone know if you can position an svg over another image with css and if you can and the two images have links attached would the image on top be the one to get priority?
<thorwil> tretle: i would guess you can and that the image on top gets "priority"
<tretle> nice, I was thinking of having the selected button image merged onto the banner which would be one color and have the svg add a texture over the banner so when you use rollover images and hover the mouse over home the button and the banner background color would change color :D :P
<tretle> wasnt sure if the svg would take priority which it would need to do so people could click on the banner to go home
<thorwil> tretle: "i would _guess_" ;)
<savvas> thorwil: do you want it in normal speech or military, like "hup two three four" ?:P
<thorwil> savvas: best is both, 2nd best is normal only :)
<savvas> ok hehe
<savvas> I'll try give me a moment
<thorwil> cool
<savvas> ok french, english, greek and serbian coming up in 15 minutes or so.. but no "beat", I don't know how to translate it into other languages
<savvas> I don't have a beat-meter to check my pace, but I think I've done well using your preview
<thorwil> savvas: if not, i will cut and even stretch the material to fit :>
<savvas> thorwil: will .flac do?
<thorwil> savvas: only if you recorded in pcm/integer format
<savvas> no idea, I'm recording with Gnome's sound recorder and a microphone :P
<thorwil> savvas: that will most likely be 16 bit pcm at 44.1 kHz
<thorwil> savvas: in that case flac can be losless. i will have to resample the material then, anyway
<savvas> oh crap, I didn't see you need "and" at the end
<savvas> (which makes sense for loops, woops!)
<thorwil> savvas: if you have several repetitions, no "and" on the last is fine
<savvas> thorwil: I'll have to do it again I think, I didn't use "and" to join the repetitions - I'll give you the link and re-do it if you want to (still uploading, 4 minutes left): http://savvas.radevic.com/previews/1234/
<savvas> let's just hope I won't get beeped soon, we're doing rounds at the hospital tonight with a professor
<savvas> thorwil: the upload's done, let me know if I can help you a bit more :)
<thorwil> savvas: mplayer skips on the files
<thorwil> [flac @ 0x89398d0]decode_frame() failed
<thorwil> [flac @ 0x89398d0]FRAME HEADER not here
<savvas> hm..
<thorwil> savvas: but totem doesn't
<savvas> true, same here :\
<savvas> I have no idea why though
<thorwil> savvas: provided that i can convert them like totem plays them, the quality is allright. while "and" after the 4s would be nice, this is ok as another not planned for variation :)
<thorwil> savvas: thank you very much for what is now the largest contribution!
<thorwil> savvas: would you like to have a link after your name in the credits?
<savvas> thorwil: ok, I think I have some time left, if I unexpectedly go away, don't get insulted, real life calls - remind me again next time :)
<savvas> thorwil: sure, if it's possible :)
<thorwil> savvas: to http://blog.radevic.com/?
<savvas> I would've done and the cypriot dialect in greek, somehow similar, but instead of "ke" (and) cypriots use "che"
<savvas> thorwil: yes, thanks!
<savvas> ok brb to get that "and" done
<savvas> thorwil: do you want it in wav this time?
<thorwil> conversion is no problem via flac -d
<savvas> ah great :)
<thorwil> savvas: as long as you don't use a JACK application, flac is alright
<savvas> thorwil: uploading as language_fixed_1and2and3and4.flac for each language at http://savvas.radevic.com/previews/1234/ - about 12 minutes left
<thorwil> :)
<savvas> I couldn't get "and" at the end, but got it in between, my mind probably doesn't get along with "and" at the end heh
<savvas> thorwil: done!
<thorwil> savvas: got them, checked, good, thank you! :)
<savvas> ok!
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-01-24
<SealV> anyone on?
<knome> we're all off.
<tretle> lo
<kwwii> hrm
<_MMA_> kwwii: Issues?
<kwwii> _MMA_: naa, just testing something
<thorwil> hrm
<kwwii> thorwil: *exactly*
<kwwii> disco nnected
<kwwii> testing pidgen, I must say this is a prety crappy irc client
<thorwil> yeah
<thorwil> nice example for the difference focus can make, i think :)
<thorwil> kwwii: mister eigensatz on the list ist eigenartig :)
<kwwii> thorwil: aber ohne scheiss
<thorwil> lol
<kwwii> should I show that to mark as the art teams suggestion?
<_MMA_> kwwii: There's a IRC proxy app I use called "bip". It's nice because it stays connected and I can shutdown Pidgin. Like Screen+irssi
<kwwii> _MMA_: to be honest, when I am done testing this notification stuff I am going to go back to screen and irssi :p
<_MMA_> Bah.
<kwwii> pidgen is not meant to be used for irc
 * _MMA_ jusr likes using 1 app for all chats.
<kwwii> that I can understand, but I don't use any other chat protocols
<_MMA_> Yer nuts.
<kwwii> old school geek
<kwwii> about once a year someone asks me if I use jabber or whatever
<kwwii> and once I year I hunt for my account info...a waste of time
<_MMA_> I just use Jabber and IRC now. I have a AOL account with some old family. Only reason I keep that.
<savvas> kwwii: try pidgin-plugin-pack and enable some irssi commands :P
<savvas> you could also try finch, the command line pidgin :)
<kwwii> savvas: hehe, I think I'll stick with irssi
<savvas> it was never meant to be an irc client anyway :P
<savvas> how are the rabbits going? :)
<kwwii> I think the rabbit is dead
<kwwii> a good euphemism
<savvas> heh
<nand> thorwil: Check your mails. With greetings of my brother :)
<thorwil> nand: thank you and your brother. please ask him if he would like to have a link in the credits :)
<nand> thorwil: he says just the name is okay :)
<thorwil> ok
<thorwil> it's quite interesting to hear not only the differences between languages, but also speakers
<nand> I think you also lack a female speaker!
<thorwil> one? dozens! ;)
<thorwil> i mailed the ubuntu-women list in my dispair :)
<nand> :)
<thorwil> nand: a plain e at the end of Maxime?
<nand> thorwil: yes
<thorwil> k
<kwwii> primes2h: we figured out the problem with the stock_* emblems...it is in the icon naming utilities...it is a name from the old gnome naming stuff which is included for legacy reasons
<kwwii> assigning it to pitti was perfect. He just bugged me until I dug into the problem :p
<primes2h> kwwii: That's nice... I would like to ask you another thing. What about jockey emblems?
<primes2h> Where do they come from?
<Flannel> kwwii: Hi.  I was told you created the bugjam logo.  Do you happen to have it in svg? and would it be possible to get a copy?
<primes2h> kwwii: Talking again about stock_* emblem, I saw the bug report, so you mean it will be removed?
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-01-25
<DkySven> hello people
<DkySven> how exactly can I contribute? are there pages at the wiki where people request for help? do I need to start my own project?
<_MMA_> DkySven: There's some projects going on. What can you do? What are your skills?
<DkySven> _MMA_, I know the basics of GIMP and Inkscape
<DkySven> I also make my own pictures I use as wallpaper
<_MMA_> DkySven: I would post a "Hello" to the mailing list with helpful links to examples of your work.
<DkySven> ok
<primes2h> kwwii: I read your explanation about stockmail... emblem. Do you mean it will be removed?
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-01-26
<SkullTraill> hello
<SkullTraill> I'm new here
<SkullTraill> Hello?
<SkullTraill> Anyone?!?
<wedderburn> SkullTraill: yeah?
<SkullTraill> anyone?
<SkullTraill> ???
<SkullTraill> ??
<SkullTraill> hello?
<SkullTraill> ??
<coz_> good morning
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-01-27
 * vish sigh
<wedderburn> whats up?
<vish> damn lp locked me out just when i was about to update breather branding > https://launchpad.net/breathe-icon-set
<vish> breathe*
<wedderburn> not fun :\
<wedderburn> vish: so is breath the defacto alternative icon set for ubuntu?
<vish> wedderburn: nope
<vish> wedderburn: its just a community icon set which can be installed from repos
<wedderburn> ah my bad, thought it was included as a alternative theme
<vish> mat_t: hi... Upstream wants a response regarding the ad-hoc icon in the network manager menu
<mat_t> vish: k, what is the question exactly?
<vish> mat_t: https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=504822
<ubottu> Gnome bug 504822 in nm-applet "Get better icons (larger, better styled, etc)" [Enhancement,New]
<mat_t> thx, looking
<vish> oops wrong bug
<mat_t> ok, not looking :)
<vish> mat_t: https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=607577
<ubottu> Gnome bug 607577 in nm-applet "[enh] better adhoc icon" [Enhancement,Needinfo]
<mat_t> thx :)
<vish> np.. :)
<thorwil> troy_s: hi! what happened to whatever you wanted to try based on my title page SVG?
<troy_s> thorwil: I was just looking at something.
<thorwil> troy_s: something strange happened. our proposal to continue with a team and a process working from goals over audience, tone, message towards actual design got accepted
<troy_s> thorwil: That's terrific. Now the hard work starts - you have an obligation to _prove_ that the execution / output quality will yield better dividends than had that decision not been made.
<troy_s> thorwil: I sincerely hope you guys can accomplish it.
<troy_s> thorwil: And women maybe?
<troy_s> thorwil: Made a really crap assumption there... sorry.
<thorwil> troy_s: no. David Nel (made the footprint and laptop proposals) didn't reply. so the team is vish, wolter and yours truly
<thorwil> troy_s: plus the guy responsible for LaTeX
<troy_s> thorwil: ???
<troy_s> thorwil: LaTeX? The guy generating the actual document output?
<thorwil> troy_s: who already told me that its's very hard to impossible to realize grid alignment with latex (the default seems to be to work with flexible whitespace spread across the page)
<thorwil> troy_s: yes, he's responsible for implementing the layout, font choices, typesetting
<troy_s> thorwil: I can't comment. I do know that there are some _extremely_ high end typesetters that discuss the merits of LaTeX. I can't imagine for a second that you can't design something as critical as a grid with it. But again, I _cannot_ comment with any shred of authority.
<troy_s> thorwil: I'd bet "grid latex" generates a few hits.
<thorwil> troy_s: i intend to have word regarding page margins, but otherwise leave the field to him, basically
<troy_s> thorwil: Just avoid opinion and use Bringhurst.
<thorwil> troy_s: yes. discussions about it being hard to impossible ;)
<troy_s> thorwil: The easiest choice is to concede to someone that knows far more about typesetting than anyone around these parts. ;)
<troy_s> thorwil: And _anyone_ that questions that authority should probably give their heads a shake. Which is why it is a _deadly_ easy 'recipe'
<troy_s> thorwil: Not the _only_ recipe, but it is hard to argue against Bringhurst with the experience level of the culture.
<thorwil> yeah, though i'd like to avoid an argument from authority
<troy_s> thorwil: That's the point. It is impossible to get into one.
<troy_s> thorwil: It's like arguing with Dali about surrealism.
<troy_s> thorwil: You _could_ but anyone with at least two braincells would easily spot how foolish you would look doing so.
<troy_s> thorwil: The points are pretty clear: 1) Yes there are options. 2) Yes there are other presentations. 3) Yes there are no absolutist rules. 4) Knowing (1), (2), and (3) and guessing at the ability / experience of just about everyone this side of Tschichold, it is _damn_ hard to argue that Bringhurst's outlines / blueprints will deliver something _awful_.
<troy_s> thorwil: It probably doesn't mean anything radical in practical terms anyways.
<troy_s> thorwil: In fact, just the opposite.
<troy_s> thorwil: The upside of LaTeX is that it _will_ allow you fine grained control over point size and leading.
<troy_s> thorwil: Which many apps don't (helloooooo Inkscrape)
<thorwil> yes, it has some very nice characteristics. just never was a complete solution for my own needs
 * thorwil got into layout learning quarkxpress
<troy_s> thorwil: Needs refine. Anyways, I _really_ hope the output goes smoothly.
<troy_s> thorwil: You three _really_ need to aim for the fences and not strike out.
<troy_s> thorwil: It is no easy task to not suck. Lol.
<troy_s> thorwil: Start with the type. The typefaces on _all_ of those covers is simply nasty.
<troy_s> thorwil: That is perhaps the biggest glaring 'Yikes'.
<troy_s> thorwil: This might interest you - http://projects.blender.org/tracker/?func=detail&atid=498&aid=20773&group_id=9
<troy_s> thorwil: Tested it and it _works_. Simply _awesome_.
<thorwil> troy_s: that link wants a login. tell me what to search for, instead
<troy_s> thorwil: The projects site is logon only. It's a bug report.
<troy_s> thorwil: Can't explain it... uh... let me render something very very quickly.
<thorwil> troy_s: dinner time, back in 30 to 40 minutes
<troy_s> thorwil: http://s3.amazonaws.com/GZips/thorwil0001_0096.dvd
<thorwil> troy_s: what am i looking at, camera orientation dependent motion blur?
<troy_s> No.
<troy_s> thorwil: That is strictly in the 2D compositor
<troy_s> thorwil: The origin of the directional blur off of a simple avi is animated along the x axis.
<troy_s> thorwil: You can now animate _any_ variable.
<troy_s> thorwil: Might be hard to wrap your head around. It is _extremely_ powerful.
<thorwil> troy_s: yeah, 2.5 has to be awesome
<thorwil> inkscape folks already talk about gsoc 2010
<troy_s> thorwil: It's mind numbing.
<troy_s> thorwil: Strictly for 2D animation
<troy_s> thorwil: Blender slays.
<troy_s> thorwil: The compositor is worth its weight in gold.
<troy_s> thorwil: Or even static 2D imaging.
<troy_s> thorwil: It really destroys every other tool we have.
<thorwil> troy_s: how do you do lighting-independent 2d with gradients in blender?
<troy_s> thorwil: Sorry... rephrase.
<troy_s> thorwil: As in avoid the 3D?
<thorwil> troy_s: yes, if you use blender for 2d animation, how to handle color fills?
<troy_s> thorwil: Well technically you can still define shapes (ala Inkscape) via the 3D interface - just lock yourself into 2D.
<troy_s> thorwil: If you use an orthagonal camera, everything behaves as expected. Materials just set to 'emit' as opposed to using a light.
<thorwil> that part is clear
<troy_s> thorwil: Make sense?
<thorwil> still open how one would do a gradient fill on a 2d surface
<troy_s> thorwil: Oh you mean a literal fill on a surface. Haven't tried. Not sure you can specify it. That is the domain of a deep colour image editor... Oh wait... we don't have any. Krita maybe?
<thorwil> last time i tried krita i dropped it because it wouldn't give me a gradient fill without creating a preset :)
<thorwil> so things i want regarding bitmap editing are spread across gimp, krita and mypaint, currently.
<troy_s> thorwil: Not really
<troy_s> thorwil: Remember, you can't get say, deep colour and use any other tool that doesn't support it.
<troy_s> thorwil: So GIMP is crippled, Inkscape is crippled etc.
<troy_s> thorwil: It is a one way path of loss... like going to MP3.
<troy_s> thorwil: Not relevant for those that don't do any manipulation as you are always trapped in the 24 bit domain regardless for output... but for manipulations it is devastating.
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-01-28
<Burgundavia> kwwii: you around?
<kwwii> Burgundavia: hey
<Burgundavia> kwwii: I was wondering about the artwork for lucid, when it will freeze. I wondered if I can start shooting screenshots for teh official book or if I should wait
<kwwii> Burgundavia: wait, trust me
<kwwii> Burgundavia: next week is the platform sprint, sometime shortly after that I will know more about when the freeze will be
<kwwii> I assume that by the last alpha we will freeze this time
<Burgundavia> kwwii: ok, thanks very much
<kwwii> Burgundavia: no problem, hope the info helps, sorry that I said no :P
<Burgundavia> kwwii: it is ok, having a time makes it easier to plan
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-01-30
<vish> thorwil: hmm.. any Ubuntu ML you are _not_ subscribed to ? ;)
<thorwil> vish: sure, 1 or 2 :)
<thorwil> vish: but what about you? ;)
<vish> lol.. yeah..
<thorwil> new mypaint release: http://mypaint.intilinux.com/?p=302
<MaximLevitsky> What do you use to create icons?
<MaximLevitsky> inkscape?
<thorwil> MaximLevitsky: yes, inkscape is the usual choice
<MaximLevitsky> thorwil, yep, wonderful program
<thorwil> ugh. the wiki should be cleverer about file types, but is it too much to ask that people use extensions such as .jpg? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Lucid/ShelfExplorer
 * thorwil sends message to user and moves page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Concepts
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-01-31
<vish> thorwil: > http://blogs.gnome.org/nacho/2010/01/31/looking-for-a-new-logo-in-gedit/
<vish> ;p
<vish> damn! troy isnt here to trash talk spec work :(
<vish> troy_s: another person you need to send a note > http://blogs.gnome.org/nacho/2010/01/31/looking-for-a-new-logo-in-gedit/
<vish> ;)
<troy_s> vish: Greets vish.
<vish> o/
<troy_s> vish: And it is hardly something that I can tackle alone. It takes an awareness - not just a 'stopping' of. The point of avoiding random contest rubbish is that (1) it is completely destructive to the creative landscape in Free Software (2) prevents solid execution via iteration and design thinking at the start / onset.
<vish> troy_s: they posted a request in the art work page , and I wonder why he announced the contest soon after that :s
<troy_s> vish: In short, it takes more people to understand this and see why the process is flawed. Voting / contests / etc. has led our art and design _exactly_ to where it is now - an aesthetically bankrupt mess.
<vish> lol , already people posted icons o.0  ... must be the stock icons they already had :D
<troy_s> vish: Still misses the point.
<troy_s> vish: How goes the cover design?
<vish> troy_s: hmm , yesterday there was a discussion which regards to style and other issues[of which i was half awake]..  thorwil seems to be full fledged in it , he knows more he has done the initial layout..
 * vish tuned out a bit lately :(
<vish> s/which/with
<thorwil> troy_s: i still have to edit the log to distill what has been said about the audience
<troy_s> thorwil: Just worry about upping the output :)
<troy_s> thorwil: Have you guys got a general direction to start brainstorming in?
<thorwil> troy_s: not quite yet. maybe we have when i'm done with my next mail about audience/tone/message
<troy_s> thorwil: Heavy weight. Make sure you don't lose everyone.
<thorwil> a user needs a little help here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Lucid/Homosapien
<thorwil> but i'm logging out for the day now, bye!
<dashua> Wow
<dashua> kwwii, Is there any delay on the ml?  Just making sure my e-mail wasn't lost.
<Equiet> dashua: What mailing list?
<dashua> ubuntu-art
<dashua> It used to be pretty fast.
<Equiet> I am subscribed and no e-mail from dashua or something similar.
<dashua> Same here.
<dashua> Ah, there it is.
<dashua> Thx
<Equiet> dashua: Good theme, but I don't like the gradient for title bar. Especially for unfocused window.
#ubuntu-artwork 2011-01-24
<zach32> hi can anyone help me with installing the osx Leopard theme on ubuntu
<zniavre_> is it really an help to to that ?
<zniavre_> :o)
<zniavre_> http://gnome-look.org/content/show.php/Mac4Lin?content=108478
<iainfarrell> hey there evilvish
<evilvish> iainfarrell: hey..
<iainfarrell> hey evilvish
<iainfarrell> people are still complaining that they can't log in
<evilvish> hmm.. thats weird..
<iainfarrell> on the non photo sute
<iainfarrell> site
<iainfarrell> have a look on the blog
<evilvish> well, it might be that they cant submit..
 * evilvish checks..
<coz_> what is the link ..let me try
<evilvish> coz_: http://art.ubuntu-owl.org/
<evilvish> submit is broken..
<evilvish> iainfarrell: yea.. they are complaining about not being able to submit..
<evilvish> iainfarrell: regarding the submit, you mentioned you were going to follow up with doctormo â¦ what happened?
<iainfarrell> evilvish: I had a day job ;) I'll have to ask him when he's online later on. I just wondered if you guys knew anything about it
<evilvish> lol!
<iainfarrell> :)
<evilvish> iainfarrell: last i spoke to doctormo he mentioned that he is not a PHP dev and that there is nothing much he can do right now.. could you get richardlee or someone else who knows php to look into it?
<iainfarrell> evilvish: sadly not, we're all a bit stacked at the moment and can't spare him to look at this
<coz_> ooo it made me recover a password     I hope i can change it  let me check
<iainfarrell> is there anyone else helping to run the site?
<evilvish> iainfarrell: i asked another person too.. but he was lost as well.. :(
<evilvish> iainfarrell: if all else fails.. just open an lp bug report and ask people to add files to the bug :D
 * darkmatter rawrs loadly
<darkmatter> loudly*
<iainfarrell> darkmatter: I liked loadly
<iainfarrell> has weight ;)
<coz_> :)
<darkmatter> haha
<darkmatter> I'm just overly happy because my walk triggered an epiphany or 12 ;P
<evilvish> iainfarrell: launchpad can handle both svg and png attachments.. so wont be an issue.. (that is if we cant get someone to spend an hour on the site..)
<coz_> uploading is definilty not working :)
<iainfarrell> darkmatter: glad to hear it
<iainfarrell> ;)
<iainfarrell> evilvish: we can't have people uploading to LP
<iainfarrell> that's ridiculous
<evilvish> yea.. ;)
<iainfarrell> I'll chat to DocMO and if all else fails
<iainfarrell> I think we move to Flickr
<iainfarrell> because Yahoo's engineers can worry about keeping the site up
<iainfarrell> and it's easy to search
<iainfarrell> and easy to upload to
<iainfarrell> we need something that's reliable
<coz_> ooo   I really dont know how to use flickr
<evilvish> iainfarrell: you could rather use deviantart instead..
<thorwil> evilvish: don't make me puke
<evilvish> thorwil: will wiki do it?
<iainfarrell> evilvish: It's not a very easy site to use, neither is a wiki
<iainfarrell> we're already on Flickr
<evilvish> thorwil: i mean the final touch to puking ;p
<iainfarrell> and as the wallpaper contest is there already
<iainfarrell> for photos
<iainfarrell> and you can categorise an image
<thorwil> evilvish: final touch? it might trigger turning inside out!
<iainfarrell> as an illustration or photo or other
<iainfarrell> so would make filtering for judging very east
<iainfarrell> *easy
<thorwil> yaya, flickr easily beats our alternatives that happen to not work at all
<iainfarrell> thorwil: exactly and we want this non photo wallpaper to be successful
<iainfarrell> would hate for submissions to be low because the site doesn't work
<thorwil> it still sucks for limiting resolution for free accounts and being a proprietary service that we then push unto people
<evilvish> iainfarrell: well.. IMO, it is better if you could squeeze one hour out of richardlee.. saves a lot of hasstle ;)
<iainfarrell> evilvish: I don't know it's just an hour and he's not mine to use as I see fit
<iainfarrell> and it's still a bodge
<evilvish> :p
<iainfarrell> what if it happens again? We agreed to set it up at UDS and it's not working yet, doesn't bode well
<evilvish> iainfarrell: well, worst case if he spends one hour you would know the site is unfixable and we switch to flickr
<iainfarrell> I'm just trying to avoid getting messages from frustrated people who'd like to contribute
<iainfarrell> but again evilvish he has a lot to be getting on with which effects the launch of Natty for Canonical so I can't just go get an hour of his time
<iainfarrell> I'll catch up with Doc when he's up
<iainfarrell> see what he knows
<evilvish> cool.. :)
<evilvish> doctormo: ^^
<thorwil> iainfarrell: as unhappy as i am with flickr, if i were you, i would have said: forget that owl thing, we move to flickr last week already
<iainfarrell> thorwil: We've still got plenty of time if I get a blog post out today/ tomorrow and I didn't want to just say we're switching because it's a team effort, we all agreed to try the new site on a sunny day in Florida :)
<iainfarrell> but I think we're at that point
<iainfarrell> it's just over a month
<iainfarrell> and people need to know where to put submissions
<iainfarrell> thanks for being agreeable to the idea though
<coz_> whoa I did flickr  :)   http://www.flickr.com/photos/57304627@N04/
<thorwil> *standing ovations* :)
<coz_> thorwil,  lol  well its about time  I suppose... I really didnt want to use flicker but ,...
<evilvish> coz_: dont tell troy you uploaded your stuff! ;p
<coz_> evilvish,  :)  I am as we speak
<thorwil> coz_: https://launchpad.net/~t-w-/+archive/ppa should also work for Natty, now. would you be so kind to try it?
<coz_> thorwil,  ah cool
<coz_> ok enough for flickr uploades
<coz_> ok 9  is enough   http://www.flickr.com/photos/57304627@N04/
<darkmatter> coz_: very nice. upload moar :D
<coz_> darkmatter,  ah  I dont know .... I am looking at some of my old stuff ...maybe upload 3 more
<coz_> ok definitley done for now
<darkmatter> meh. I'm considering starting work on library/filer/<insert various other functions here> component of Sojourn tomorrow, but maybe I should just wait for a relatively stable gtk+3 so I don't have to port crap to the new api
<coz_> darkmatter,  that sounds reasonable
<darkmatter> coz_: the modular app shell (using webkit) for things like the messaging centre. photo gallery, etc. but still needs reliance on gtk. I think I told you about the idea before. pretty much have it nailed conceptually. so want to get a basic build out there so I can start dragging people in for funtimes ;D
<coz_> darkmatter,  yes I remember...  :)
<evilvish> haha! Nathan Barley: "today's ridiculous is tomorrow's really cool!"
 * evilvish reminded by..  <iainfarrell> that's ridiculous
 * evilvish bbl..
<darkmatter> coz_: and as far as "workspaces" go (well, not really workspaces, but same general concept), I was thining instead of crudely flipping/sliding about, have sort of a panoramic approach, or more accurately "screen can be bigger than display" feel and allow for smoothly switching while watching the scenery roll by. not really a necessity, but if I can make it work would be a nice "natural" feeling bling :P
<Viper550> oh hello
<doctormo> thorwil, iainfarrell, evilvish: Move to flickr, we'll work out how to digg ourselves out of the flickr hole for next release.
<doctormo> So long as everyone is aware that flickr remains an issue and that we use it because we have _nothing_ else.
<doctormo> I personally, won't be submitting to the contest however, I don't have a flickr account. So I'm going to be a rare instance.
<doctormo> But I think you're all right, of course, we need something that works.
<doctormo> Although iainfarrell, we were trying to use an experimental cchost deployment for production, we tried, it failed, no loss. We'll try something else next time.
<doctormo> Maybe something not php *shudder* maybe something python based so we can get it deployed onto Canonical servers.
<iainfarrell> doctormo: ok, thanks for getting back
<doctormo> iainfarrell: The specifics of the issue: the sys-admin upgraded from hardy to lucid, the php version jumped and the cchost fell over permanently.
<Sud0_> Hey guys
<Viper550> Are any of you good at fonts?
<thorwil> Viper550: what do you mean with good at fonts?
<Viper550> well, good at working with/making font glyphs/such
<thorwil> Viper550: well, i sometimes create custom type for logos. doesn't make me a type designer
<Viper550> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Marketing/Branding#Fonts the font we got here is nice, but its missing quite a few international glyphs
<Sud0_> What Photo Editing Program do you all use?
#ubuntu-artwork 2011-01-25
<darkmatter> hmmmmmm
<darkmatter> evilvish: left/right screen edge scroll arrows or a floating "swipe bar" for a window switcher. which do think would be more bettah?
 * darkmatter is working on some window management plugins/ideas
<mvit> :o
<mvit> well, im kinda new here then
<mvit> I basically had an idea on how to merge the old look of ubuntu with the newest
<mvit> lemme just find the mockup..
<mvit> http://cl.ly/36030P1g2g2q2i102l3V
<mvit> is the style unchangable now or will it allow exceptions?
<darkmatter> mvit: I assume you mean unity? at the moment it's not themable (well... the launcher icons can change with the theme, but the panelicons/ and unity theme are hardcoded atm.  dunno the plans on ctual theme support (tolazy to check statuses :P)
<mvit> I meant ubuntu
<mvit> I just added unity to see how it would look with that style
<mvit> http://cl.ly/3a1d0v2Q0m063p2k352W < this should be the separate window
<mvit> I really liked the old color pallete
<darkmatter> mvit: I found the old palette a bit on the rich side myself (and heavily over-saturated). but personal opinions being what they are
<mvit> At least it has some color, the grey in the newest ubuntu makes it seem kinda boring in my opinion
<kwwii> guten morgen
<thorwil> good morning
<thorwil> ivanka: i thought photos and drawings for the showcase were meant to be non-wallpapers this time?
<thorwil> evilvish: one week until the ubuntu-art logo has to be discussed. what will you do?
<ivanka> thorwil: good point - I will update myself
<thorwil> iainfarrell, ivanka: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuFreeCultureShowcase needs a minus-wallpaper edit, then
<iainfarrell> thorwil: yep indeed
<iainfarrell> I'll get on it shortly
 * thorwil hits the list
<evilvish> thorwil: i give up.. lets just name the baby boy Elizabeth â¦
<evilvish> and just hope it is a girl..
<thorwil> evilvish: heh. we could of course remain silent and hope nobody remembers ... :}
<evilvish> thorwil: yea.. i dont plan on bringing up the topic.. but the one who shall not be named might not forget â¦ ;)
<coz_> good day all
<doctormo> hey coz
<thorwil> hola
<coz_> hey gusy :)
<coz_> guys
<doctormo> hey thorwil, for a second I thought your blog post was going to be all religious
<coz_> ah oh already I am mis spelling :)
<doctormo> coz_: Are you suggesting I'm a gusy? some kind of tart for your textual lingering? :-P
<coz_> lol
<coz_> doctormo,   I deserve that
<coz_> doctormo,   there are days my big fingers just wont respond the way I want :)
<thorwil> doctormo: omg, jesus, praise the lord that i would not write something all religious, good heavens!
<doctormo> thorwil: That's right, we like a respectful community, where we keep our magic men and imaginary friends in our heads where they belong ;-P
<thorwil> doctormo: would you like to talk about your magic men and imaginary friends that you think belong in your head?
<thorwil> only minutes after writing that blog post, i stumbled over some ugly issues with thunderbird. so far, it still beats evolution, but it seem every email client sucks in one way or the other
<doctormo> thorwil: Deisgn wise, email clients are bunk. Would you like to see my idea of an email client?
<doctormo> http://doctormo.deviantart.com/#/d37k1o8
<thorwil> doctormo: i'm in favor of the beos approach, with emails directl yin the filesystem
<doctormo> TBH, I'm sick of the Inbox thinking, and I'm sick of closed data stores.
<thorwil> yeah
<doctormo> I like email in my file system, I like email indexed for search and sorting. I don't like email to be all about a single folder where you go to pick up messages, like we had a postbox in the flintstones.
<thorwil> as i had such troubles with evolutions editor, i once again had to think about a reason given for mail, news and whatever else clients in emacs: familiar editing environment, shortcuts and all
<thorwil> that approach should be turned inside-out: chose an editor as system wide preference that will appear embedded everywhere needed
<doctormo> Yes, instead of emacs the os.
<darkmatter> yeah. things like mail should be global. so should contacts (shared between mail/chat/what the hell ever (even the browser where suited, like fore facebook or twitter type social stuff))
<darkmatter> per application data stores have there place, but also usually present way to much duplication (and repetitive setup)
<darkmatter> their*
<thorwil> darkmatter: and a backup/restore/migration disaster
<darkmatter> ya
<thorwil> it's so damn obvious, i wonder why not more people see it
<thorwil> considering issues my mother had with email, thunderbird specifically, something would have to be done to make clear how mails get into the inbox and how stuff ends up in Drafts and Sent
<thorwil> now if writing a new mail would put you in the *place* where Drafts will be kept, too, that could help
<darkmatter> thorwil: I was planning (wherever possible) to just use the filesystem as the backend for the library component I'm going to be working on (just need stable gtk3 damnit). I don't see the need for a music database etc in banshee et al either (or photo libraries for that matter) when the file manager (or whatever you chose to call it) can have a "library view" frontend or similar
<darkmatter> plus you can slim down a system dramatically
<darkmatter> share the data, just imbed the view in an the app
<darkmatter> -an*
<darkmatter> it's not _that_ hard to figure out
<thorwil> doctormo: differentiating one-on-one(-or-few) correspondence from groups and notifications could be worthwhile
<thorwil> doctormo: but where do you see the difference between Groups and Discussions?
<doctormo> thorwil: Groups are public (mailing lists, public as in recorded in a third location) and Disucssions are private, as in they only happen between these people.
<darkmatter> atm probably 30% of my home directory is duplicate crap because everything is stored in triplicate. lol
<thorwil> darkmatter: especially the handling of email attachments is handled so *brilliantly *. ugh. there should be versioning and dependency tracking
<doctormo> Or just a folder where they get saved
<darkmatter> hehe
<darkmatter> oh nice. real name memenu works in lucid too (not that it matters, since I'm switching to maverick tonight)
<darkmatter> </off topic>
<thorwil> http://createdigitalmusic.com/2011/01/score-an-operating-system-music-sound-and-ubuntu-free-culture-showcase-on-soundcloud/
<darkmatter> thorwil: lol@ the pic. I don't even wanna go there....
<coz_> thorwil,  another sound submission ?
<thorwil> coz_: why another?
<thorwil> coz_: the blog author is one of the jurors for the free culture showcase
<coz_> thorwil,  here was a "contest of sorts"  last year that ended in October for new sounds  for Natty
<thorwil> coz_: this is about music, not desktop sounds
<coz_> thorwil,   ah ,, I better pay more attention
<thorwil> coz_: nah, that would reduce opportunities of entertainment :)
<coz_> lol
<darkmatter> Immersion is nice. an abbreviated version would be great for startup :D
<coz_> I deserve  that
<coz_> so this is for music  on the system  ..how?
<coz_> when?
<thorwil> coz_: content for the Examples folder. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuFreeCultureShowcase
<coz_> huh!  ok  I can get into this
<darkmatter> http://soundcloud.com/anthony-distefano/immersion   <-- edit and use for login (or a startup sound just before gdm)
<thorwil> good night! :)
<coz_> mm I am still confused,, I dont understand the purpose of this
<darkmatter> coz_: to showcase the talent lurking in free culture basically
<coz_> darkmatter,  but some of these dont seem to be original works
<darkmatter> coz_: lol. yeah. like I said *talent* :P
<coz_> :)
<coz_> darkmatter,  well I was kind of hoping to hear some cool compositions
<coz_> LOL    "MOOOOOO"    http://soundcloud.com/groups/ubuntu-free-culture-showcase/tracks?page=4
<darkmatter> coz_: but off topic. I figured out task management for my cuddy lil brainchild!
<coz_> cool
<darkmatter> not "ideal" (I'm not anb idealist damnit!) but will work nicely within the ui constraints
<darkmatter> coz_: basically a glorified window switcher (keyboard and/or mouse driven )or touch ftm)). currently selected window centered/larger than the others (with dropshadows) others smaller, going off the screen (with a mask to make them fade near the scroll markers). app icon centered at bottom edge of window. in "always group" displays an "^" on the icon. activating the icon instead of the window in group mode will show a "popup" of open w
<darkmatter> want it to work in 2d as well
<coz_> darkmatter,  ooo sounds interesting... how far from testing?
<darkmatter> oh. and a search filter for quickly finding an app/window
<darkmatter> coz_: far. just mocked it up on paper last night ;)
<coz_> darkmatter,  oh ok :)
<darkmatter> but basically a more "natural" (or organic) feeling replacement for switching
<coz_> darkmatter,  I like the idea... sounds real interesting
<darkmatter> coz_: oddly enough. the inspiration came (partially) from multitasking on smartphones. I just "reconceptualized" it to something more suited to standard computing (while still maintaining portability).
<coz_> darkmatter,  I wouldnt mind trying something like this at all. :)
<coz_> ok I did not get much sleep last night.... I need to lay down for a few hours.... darkmatter  sorry guy... I cant keep my eyes opened
<darkmatter> coz_: I think currently things feel to artifical on the "desktop". I'm also considering a panoramic style of activity (workspace) switching instead of flippy floppy. gracefully move across the landscape. almost like the display is a window out on the world (if you get the meaning)
#ubuntu-artwork 2011-01-26
<darkmatter> evilvish: indicators-applet needs http://jimmac.musichall.cz/images/guimockups/notifications/notification-systray-moreitems.png ;)
<evilvish> darkmatter: unfortunately, OSX does not have such a feature..  ;)
<evilvish> s/such a/this/
<darkmatter> evilvish: lulz. but. indicators remind me more of the old suse ideas
<darkmatter> evilvish: and besides, osx doesn't have a horizontal volume slider nor integrated music controls in the volume icon either :P
<evilvish> darkmatter: we cant make it /that/ obvious..  ;)
<darkmatter> and you can drag/drop rearange /remove osx "tray" items. so there :P
<darkmatter> well. I can just hack it :P
<darkmatter> evilvish: I know it'll never happen "officially" but makes sense (hiding stuff you don't need constant access to). imo any notification should only be displayed as required. but since that would regulate to much patching of apps, just hide stuff and display on state change (_when_ feasible) I men, if it doesn't need constant or continual observing it shouldn't be displayed until neccessary
<darkmatter> or until you _want_ t interact with it
<evilvish> darkmatter: if you dont require constant access why even present them there?
<darkmatter> like. battery. should be accessible, but shouldn't be shown until it equires interaction, otherwise have it in the hidden "tray"
<evilvish> darkmatter: battery has an option to display only when charging/discharing.. and so on..
<darkmatter> evilvish: thats my point about "to much app patching" (like drop box and some others) where fast gui access is nice to have, but "clutter" isn't
<darkmatter> som things are fine as is, since volume/message indicators double as application access points (all-in-one ftw), but that method won't/cant work for everything. that's why a little bit of configuration would be nice *shrugs*
<evilvish> darkmatter: indicator did start with a good idea.. but it is getting a whole lot confusing and inconsistent..
<darkmatter> evilvish: *nod*
<darkmatter> confusing should be a choice, not a requirement ;P
<evilvish> darkmatter: the funny thing is .. when indicator was announced, there was this 'it is going to be so easy to navigate with keyboard' thing around it.. and i dont think they have implemented a way to even open the menu from a keyboard yet ;p
<evilvish> (not that i would use the keyboard for that..)
<evilvish> but it defeats the whole purpose of "keyboard navigation" when you have to open the menu with a mouse ;p
<darkmatter> evilvish: aye. I believe in multiple navigation methods. like my (you can use a mouse" alt-tab thingy I was telling coz_ about earlier. user preference ftw
<darkmatter> to an extent at least. avoid kde ideals of "user preference" like the plague :D
<evilvish> darkmatter: actually we can just take kde and make a kde-lite.. hide the silly prefs and we'd have a good DE ;)
<darkmatter> hehe
<darkmatter> evilvish: that was one of my main reasons for switching to gnome in the first place (once it became usable. e hated xdg editting). I got sick and tired of configuring kde
<darkmatter> today is a good day. switching to maverick after my backups finish! \o/
<darkmatter> ooo... nice icons. something similar with uby font would = win
<darkmatter> evilvish: https://photos-1.dropbox.com/i/l/nejY5kA7SvA5IeYlTrNHno9fcrmdV5dOuBGjvuXkS7s/11469318/1296133200/8317485#13
<darkmatter> https://photos-2.dropbox.com/i/l/HwoM0lzePSRfwTCFkGkQ5n9JNvbjbi1_DGHEQhS9nAI/11469318/1296133200/ea01280#8
<darkmatter> https://www.dropbox.com/gallery/11469318/2//Android%20Stuff/Sets/Scrambble?h=8b2c81&
<evilvish> darkmatter: bah!!! i never knew you had such bad taste!
<evilvish>  if an icon needs words/text to indicate what it is.. why is it an icon o.0
<darkmatter> evilvish: I'm not talking taste. I'm talking "overall" look. not compositional specifics :P
<evilvish> darkmatter: hehe.. for a sec there i dropped you in the OMG! pile ;)
<evilvish> "ooh! look here shiny" ;p
<darkmatter> evilvish: lurn2read: "something similar" :P
<darkmatter> similar != clone :D
<darkmatter> evilvish:  actually, for the most part I don't even believe in icons unless totally necessary (like for system status stuff or toolbar glyphs)
<darkmatter> evilvish: if you get my meaning. basically I take more of a "gallery" approach to design icons tend to be limited to glyphs (of course color etc may vary slightly on state/function/whatever), and "images" for categories etc. not saying there aren't icons. they're just not fully traditional in usage
<darkmatter> and they're less a part of the ui than what is "normal"
<evilvish> darkmatter: yup.. i think you've mentioned this earlier..
#ubuntu-artwork 2011-01-27
<coz_>  0
<evilvish> 1
<thorwil> <- a 2 even further left, so you can't see it
<coz_> have all t he wallpapers for ubuntu been chosen already?
#ubuntu-artwork 2011-01-28
<allquixotic> Hello! I am the developer of rbpitch < http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=8229849#post8229849 > looking for a simple (32x32) icon for my program. It's GPLed and I am hoping to get it included in Ubuntu at some point. I'm not the artistic type, so I was wondering if anyone could get inspired to whip up an icon from the description and screenshots in that thread :-) Either that, or find an existing, distinctive icon that isn't used
<allquixotic> elsewhere on the Ubuntu desktop...
<coz_> hey all
<doctormo> they coz_
<doctormo> hey*
<coz_> doctormo,  hey guy :)
<coz_> hey all
#ubuntu-artwork 2011-01-29
<coz_> hey all
<coz_> hey all
<palhmbs> wow - a channel for every need
<palhmbs> I wanna get a tablet
<doctormo> palhmbs: Wacom?
<palhmbs> what you can do without one is severely limiting
<palhmbs> yeah - wacom are best aren't they?
<palhmbs> maybe I should just get a touchscreen .. is that an option?
<thorwil> assuming touchpad working with a stylus - yes
<thorwil> though drawing on screen vs a tablet makes quite a difference
<thorwil> there are people who could afford a large cintiq but still prefer a separate pad
<palhmbs> what about rotating your display, so it's portrait instead of landscape......
<thorwil> i'm not sure what you are after here
<palhmbs> never mind - I should start low-cost anyway
<thorwil> perhaps, but size is important
<palhmbs> Which tablet should I buy? - http://bit.ly/gmhFlr
<palhmbs> the Wacom Intuos4 series looks good - but way outa my price range
<doctormo> thorwil: I invited palhmbs over from ubuntu-classroom-chat
<doctormo> palhmbs: I have an Intuos3 4x6 and it's effective. I would like a screen/tablet. But I'm not rich like thorwil ;-)
<doctormo> But! fear not, the mouse is still an effective tool for sculpting (as apposed to drawing)
<doctormo> In fact it took me a while to get used to sculpting using the pen tool.
<doctormo> The pen just isn't as good.
<palhmbs> really...
<palhmbs> I've done a few basic vector logos and things in inkscape
<thorwil> palhmbs: i can't tell you which one to buy. but note that you might be bale to save some money with an intuos 3. even a series 2 would be alright- the size will make more of a difference
<palhmbs> I haven't really done much blending
<palhmbs> I come from a print background - QuarkXpress and Photoshop were what I learned my trade on
<thorwil> doctormo: lol. i have a large intuos 2 (serial!) and can only dream of a cintiq
<doctormo> thorwil: serial? those don't work any more in Ubuntu AFAIK
<palhmbs> but I got way out of date - since I was working for a newspaper, then the internet news age started and most of the small newspapers near me closed down
<thorwil> doctormo: that's true for mere mortals, but not *hackers* ;)
<doctormo> Unless their pci based serial with a specific pnp signature.
<doctormo> thorwil: what did you do? *curious*
<palhmbs> doctormo, I guess this isn't you... --- http://twitter.com/#!/doctormo
<doctormo> palhmbs: No, I'm realdoctormo on twitter. some radio jocky stole my name on twitter.
<thorwil> doctormo: http://www1.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=10094864#post10094864
<doctormo> thorwil: I see what you've done. OK. We were trying to find out how to make serial tablets work again.
<doctormo> There is a technical spec that could be followed, but it's way too costly to implement for old tablets.
<doctormo> Since all the pnp tablets work, but none of the serial-plug ones do.
<thorwil> well, getting a new one just to have usb is too costly for me :/
<doctormo> thorwil: A lot of people face the problem: $300 for a new tablet of $3,000 to pay a developer to fix the serial support.
<thorwil> doctormo: there must be another problem then, as i fixed mine with a bit of patching
<doctormo> thorwil: You downgraded your wacom driver, right? I mean it's patched to work with the latest ubuntu, but it's still the old version.
<thorwil> hmm, right
<thorwil> perhaps i won't even bother upgrading to 11.04
<palhmbs> is their a web design channel for ubuntu?
<thorwil> #ubuntu-web, or maybe it was #ubuntu-website. though that's more about the technical side
<palhmbs> thanks thorwil
<palhmbs> so all wacom's are supported in Inkscape+Ubuntu -- is their a compatability list somewheres?
<palhmbs> has anybody figured out how to set the toolbars to be embedded all the time soon as gimp loads?
<palhmbs> I don't like the floating toolbars feature - making it more like inkscape / photoshop is what I'm used to
<troy_s> palhmbs: "... more like Photoshop on Windows is what I'm used to."
<palhmbs> I started out on a Mac actually
<palhmbs> at work
<troy_s> palhmbs: Sure... I just thought I'd point out that the application behaves fundamentally differently on the two platforms. Single window default is primarily Windows.
<palhmbs> but I do like the devel GIMP which allows you to make the toolbars part of the window - but I would love it to be a preference you can set.
<troy_s> palhmbs: It is. Not sure if it is in the version that Ubuntu ships.
<troy_s> palhmbs: You may need to try a PPA version.
<palhmbs> it's not... it IS in the devel version
<palhmbs> but not quite how I'd expect it
<troy_s> palhmbs: PPA?
<troy_s> palhmbs: I can't say that I've been obsessed with single window mode, but I know that it is in the development version. I do not believe it is enabled by default, but via a radio box. Let me find out for a second...
<palhmbs> ## Added for GIMP
<palhmbs> deb http://ppa.launchpad.net/matthaeus123/mrw-gimp-svn/ubuntu maverick main
<palhmbs> deb-src http://ppa.launchpad.net/matthaeus123/mrw-gimp-svn/ubuntu maverick main
<palhmbs> that's the PPA I use
<troy_s> palhmbs: Look under "Window"?
<palhmbs> I know it's in it...
<palhmbs> I'm just saying it should be ON as default... not off
<troy_s> palhmbs: Isn't that a question of audience?
<troy_s> palhmbs: It is one thing to make a statement, but another to think it through from a design vantage.
<palhmbs> troy_s, it's not a biggie
<palhmbs> it's not something I need...
<troy_s> palhmbs: You.
<troy_s> palhmbs: But in the bigger picture
<troy_s> palhmbs: It is a design question and one that I believe people are spouting off far too much about.
<palhmbs> but I think under window is  a dumb place - but adding it to the preferences would be a design bonus imo
<troy_s> palhmbs: One with _no_ correct answer unless you look at audience.
<troy_s> palhmbs: I believe it is making it's way to preferences. Not certain. You would need to check the mailing list I'd think.
<palhmbs> troy_s, do you do development work on any ubuntu graphics packages? or are you mainly a user?
<troy_s> palhmbs: I am an end point audience member that has commented quite a bit about design issues. The issues aren't as simple as some would like to see.
<troy_s> palhmbs: In the absolutist black / white world of "Either it compiles or it doesn't" where right and wrong exist, complex design decisions where right and wrong do not exist are tough challenges. Single window mode is a particular sore point for me when we consider other areas that should, depending on the goals and audience, be set at a much higher priority.
<palhmbs> troy_s, cool - like you say it entirely depends on audience, and I'm not a fan of making everything like windows / Mac
<troy_s> palhmbs: Which is, again, a complex issue. Certain things do require consideration such as previous experience. That inevitably leads us into discussing those tough issues.
<palhmbs> troy_s, I'd be interested in your list of higher priorities
<troy_s> palhmbs: I've covered them quite a few times. Most recently... probably this link that got far too much attention... http://troy-sobotka.blogspot.com/2011/01/why-gimp-is-inadequate.html and the follow up http://troy-sobotka.blogspot.com/2011/01/bit-depth-and-confusion.html
<palhmbs> your first blog link certainly provides some heated discussion
<palhmbs> I believe I you are right -- Mac have the dominance, but open source is catching up
<palhmbs> I believe that GIMP will continue to get better
<troy_s> palhmbs: Your belief isn't backed up with any sort of credible data though is it?
<palhmbs> it will certainly take time for the Linux OSS devs to catch up with the UI design concepts that Mac devs already are using
<troy_s> palhmbs: This discourse is predicated on other unwritten bits too, such as whether it needs to 'catch up' or anything like that at all.
<troy_s> palhmbs: UI design concepts are temporal. The very way you phrased that question positions the exact problem - if you view this as 'catch up' the culture is already hopeless.
<palhmbs> but as you said earlier - their are definitely improvements to be made
<troy_s> palhmbs: Make sense?
<troy_s> palhmbs: You have to remember that it wasn't but four years ago that many had to try and explain the ridiculousness of 'making it look like Windows' etc. The exact same pattern is seen here, but with different language.
<troy_s> palhmbs: It is _not_ simple nor easy to address. It is horribly complicated. In fact, the first point of issue is not attracting enough minds of a given type to even begin to _engage_ the issues with depth and maturity.
<palhmbs> and I'm not going to knock the GIMP dev team - cause I'm not a good programmer, and therefore unqualified to discuss the problems with coding good GUI's or developing the background algorithms that make the filters and other necessary tools 'cool/useful'
<palhmbs> troy_s, you are very correct, it does need to be tackled with depth and maturity
<palhmbs> and heating the discussion to boiling point isn't mature - isn't usually counter-productive imo
<palhmbs> s/isn't/it is/
<troy_s> palhmbs: If you are referring to the post, that is an inevitable result. It seems that we can't deal with some of the issues without it boiling over into stupidity. So either we don't discuss the issues at all or we do. In both situations, the result distills down into sub-optimal land.
<troy_s> palhmbs: There are deeper questions that probably need to be addressed. Some commentary seems to bring this into a <INSERTPROPRIETARYTOOLHERE> discussion, which is moot. Either Libre software can compete or it can't / doesn't care to. If the latter is the case, then perhaps there is some confusion because there appears evidence that it can.
<troy_s> palhmbs: If it _isn't_ in certain capacities, then, we need to figure out the complexities as to _why_. Is it purely marketing? Is it fundamental design thinking / lack of thinking? Is it the complexities of interactions in some scales? Etc.
<troy_s> palhmbs: Pretty tricky stuff. I personally am a little more passionate about the art and design ethic, issues, and culture.
<palhmbs> you sure are - and kudos to you
<palhmbs> being passionate makes a good designer / artist imo
<troy_s> palhmbs: There are some very interesting sociological issues at play it seems. They look to be amplified with Libre culture in some areas.
<troy_s> palhmbs: The big question of "How to build a culture" is a deadly tricky one. It has a cyclic Chicken-And-Egg issues but it also has some subtle bits around attitudes and opinions. Some things are dark topics we don't like to talk about around these parts.
<palhmbs> heh - building a culture is almost like building a Church
<palhmbs> your likely to have heretics to burn & saints to praise
<troy_s> palhmbs: The idea that permitting of certain personalities / voices can repulse an audience is one such point. If we suggested that "Culture A repulses culture B", it makes sense. But as soon as we talk about the specifics, such as ideals / concepts / beliefs, we seem to get into some difficult terrain.
<troy_s> palhmbs: Certainly. But the real question of "How can we cultivate a creative culture in Libre software" is one that I'd like to see some progress made in. I'm not entirely sure many think about it sadly.
<palhmbs> David Revoy has some excellent artwork - thanks for the link
<troy_s> palhmbs: He certainly does. There are a _very_ limited few folks out there with some stellar work (regardless as to the specifics of whether or not you enjoy the style etc.)
<palhmbs> where do you primarily participate in a discussion about that troy_s ?
<troy_s> palhmbs: I opted out of the discussion quite a while ago.
<palhmbs> ah - I see
<palhmbs> a passionate recluse then... lol
<troy_s> palhmbs: Not really. I keep relationships going that I value. Mailing lists and such, depending on the culture, can be net sum negative or positive depending. Most of the Libre culture saddens me.
 * thorwil is quite a distance down that road, too
<troy_s> thorwil: Greets Thor. Hard to know when you are lurking.
<thorwil> troy_s: that's the plan, so stay on your toes!
<palhmbs> it's a common aspect of any society/culture/civilisation to have a bloom of great thought / development / revolutionary thinking - then entropy sets in...
<troy_s> palhmbs: It is far from entropy. I see it as a vector.
<troy_s> palhmbs: Look at exceptionally successful companies... perhaps Microsoft or Honda or Nintendo or Apple.
<palhmbs> or Google?
<troy_s> palhmbs: They each have a vector - a sort of trajectory that attracts certain cultures and repulses others.
<troy_s> palhmbs: Indeed.
<troy_s> palhmbs: Ask yourself if Microsoft would want to be seen as the chic / epitome of design savvy etc.
<thorwil> so microsoft had a kind of wallmart vector from the get go?
<troy_s> palhmbs: The answer though, despite nearly infinite pocketbooks, is that they can't get it.
<troy_s> thorwil: Exactly.
<troy_s> thorwil: Overly simplified, but I think for the purposes of this discussion, it is in fact on point.
<troy_s> palhmbs: Nintendo has a core ethic as well. One that has a history and culture and lore of valuing video game design. It is mythological in proportion. By no small coincidence, they are doing pretty darn well in that capacity.
<palhmbs> competition is good - killing Netscape was one very bad mistake
<thorwil> does ubuntu have a lexus vector, if apple would be mercedes? (not that that would be fair to apple, i despise recent mercedes design)
<troy_s> palhmbs: Side discussion. Competition can't create culture.
<troy_s> thorwil: Well let's take it out of there.
<troy_s> thorwil: Are there examples of companies that have solved and faced the issue head on?
<troy_s> thorwil: I can think of at least three.
<thorwil> aww, driving car anaolgies into a wall is fun
<troy_s> thorwil: But there is something there isn't there? Models can help to frame issues. I believe there is something very interesting in that. Especially how the companies work to tactically negotiate clear issues.
<troy_s> thorwil: Think about... keeping on automobiles... Honda.
<troy_s> thorwil: A very well respected company. Very clear leader in quality (along with Toyota). And they indeed tackled this very issue.
<troy_s> thorwil: Nissan as well.
<troy_s> thorwil: And the dark secret of Apple's past that they probably would like to bury is that the person that nearly drove them into extinction had a clear mark on their current thinking - John Scully.
<thorwil> troy_s: i don't know if that is an european or german bias, but the japanese brands seem like a less clear story to me. compared to bmw, mercedes and porsche
<troy_s> thorwil: Well in the last triplet, the exemplary company to study would be BMW. How the _hell_ did they pull that off? That answer lies with Chris Bangle.
<troy_s> thorwil: Did you look at Honda and Toyota? Worth looking at.
<troy_s> thorwil: They actually realized that you _cannot_ fight that battle under one umbrella. "Luxury" for Eurowesterners has traits that fly in direct opposition to some of the core brand identity values their default identity was holding dear.
<troy_s> thorwil: Enter Lexus and Acura.
<thorwil> yeah
<troy_s> thorwil: (And, of course, Nissan / Infiniti)
<thorwil> but still i suspect, that a lexus will never be what mercedes used to be
<troy_s> thorwil: I'd think it has different goals. Mercedes is now history too. They have a mountain to climb that Chris Bangle rammed in their path.
<thorwil> actually, one should hope that real history beats an entirely fabricated identity
<troy_s> thorwil: Hard to know for sure, but as outsiders, we can see some interesting overlays there that might be valuable to _this_ culture.
<thorwil> as great as it would be to see the entire ecosystem evolve, i suspect change has to start with an elite
<palhmbs> I'm gonna have to upgrade my machine to install KDE I think - Krita is awesome
<thorwil> i recently tried to work in krita in 16 bit mode. bad mistake
<thorwil> krita took random thinking pauses
<thorwil> palhmbs: have a look at mypaint, too
<troy_s> thorwil: Success will breed imitation. Mimicry can breed skills. But is it enough? Wouldn't it be nicer if the rules and paths were well known and archived in some way? Not really a formula per se, but rather "The formula that lets success happen" as opposed to the other way around.
<troy_s> thorwil: The LibreOffice discussion would be on point. "We were there in when the logo was developed and the goals were not met. It did not work out."
<troy_s> thorwil: Very poignant information that sadly many don't want to see. Not saying that someone else shouldn't try the approach, but certainly valuable to consider.
<thorwil> troy_s: sure. it's thinking like that which led to my still vague ideas on baking design thinking into infrastructure. along with educational ressources
<troy_s> thorwil: That's the whole culture issue again. Baking it into a core. It would seem helluva important because _changing_ it after the fact ... well ... the proof is in the pudding it would seem.
<thorwil> what i see on the LibO lists suggest that at max 1 in 20 has any clue regarding goal driven design
<thorwil> the rest can't discern a vision statement from a marketing slogan
<troy_s> thorwil: To be as fair as possible, proof needs to be supplied. Sometimes that can probably be pretty damn difficult to find.
<thorwil> my gut reaction would be to filter, to drive away or kee out all those clueless, if well meaning people. but some must be given the chance to grow, so there will be a future
<thorwil> troy_s: well, that getting anywhere you want to be requires a planned destination hardly needs proof. and yet i see people act as if that wasn't clear
<troy_s> thorwil: "Get to where you want" is a helluva complicated statement. As always, we get lost buried under a bunch of assumptions - full circle back to the whole thing that started this chat - palhmbs 's comment.
<troy_s> thorwil: Perhaps the issue is that people tend to see things 'for granted' where no such thing exists. When someone brings it up, it divides this culture like a hot knife through butter - us and them.
<troy_s> thorwil: I mean it is the _tip_ of the iceberg. The UDS discussion "Design for China" would have been a fascinating thing to attend.
<thorwil> of course it is complicated. tell me, who i've spend days working on briefings
<troy_s> thorwil: Because as much as people only see Apple and Microsoft, that's a whole issue that Libre software can tackle - the idea of cultural context. Apple and Microsoft _cannot_ even begin to remotely engage that unless they swell up to a much larger being than they are. (I won't rule out Apple swelling to that level at this point for certain, if the culture inside can see the need)
<thorwil> that session was among the more interesting, sure. what came out of it was a bit underwhelming
<troy_s> thorwil: People looking for absolutes where there are none. I'll wager on that.
<thorwil> troy_s: rather that the research results where hard to interpret and then some quick stabs at doing it right there, nonetheless
<troy_s> thorwil: It is, as you well know, chasing dragons. The hegemony we have though, still believes in it. Gradual erosion might be happening, but not quickly enough in my mind.
<troy_s> thorwil: Research is bloody hard. I've only done two low level sociology courses and my mind was ripped open on that front thanks to them. Sociologists spend entire careers trying to develop research that doesn't botch the bloody study itself.
<thorwil> troy_s: i already imagine you have a long white beard, wrinkly forehead from all the sorrows and you sit alone on a steep, high mountain
<troy_s> thorwil: You probably saw this one, but damn if it isn't relevant - http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/election2008/2008-07-20-ballots_N.htm
<troy_s> thorwil: LMAO.
<troy_s> thorwil: It's true... I'm old.
<troy_s> thorwil: And it does sadden me. Mainly because I'm so poorly equipped to try and engage and discuss things it appears.
<thorwil> i manage to feel old and bloody young at the same time
<thorwil> troy_s: the feeling that everytime you get into a serious discussion, things heat up and people react less than nice? is that what you mean with poorly equipped?
<troy_s> palhmbs: You've gone quiet sir.
<palhmbs> I have a meeting I'm attending on #openhatch
<troy_s> thorwil: Not really. I tend to have a pretty good experience when I can actually talk to someone - like here for example. Even those that come in at a tangent with a clear attack posture end up pretty damn good.
<palhmbs> sorry - I'll catch up
<thorwil> troy_s: hmm, so one on one is critical?
<troy_s> thorwil: Certainly critical, but that happens in the other interaction capacity. In _person_ discussions can adjust to the context. But someone that pulls a tl;dr can (not always) become some side tracked nonsense.
<thorwil> i have to leave, coz_ has to take my place! ;)
<thorwil> good night!
<troy_s> thorwil: Cioa.
<troy_s> thorwil: Ciao even.
<coz_> oh wonderful... I get promoted without warning :)
<troy_s> coz_: "He's dead. You are the new sergeant. Now go soldier and take that hill!"
<coz_> lol
<coz_> yeah slippery hill... coated with pixels  that smear as I trek to the top
<troy_s> coz_: Or gunned down while you put your boots on. LOL.
<coz_> I have never been interested in leading  any part of this... but I do have opinions :)
<coz_> I am real glad I figured out this Flickr thing... its really easy and I can see how helpful it is to submit images
<coz_> troy_s,   how are you this day?
<troy_s> coz_: Good thanks. You?
<coz_> troy_s,  not bad thanks for asking..
<palhmbs> mypaint is an excellent alternative to krita
<palhmbs> thanks
<coz_> palhmbs,  oh yeah ,, whoever suggested that was  right
<coz_> palhmbs,  its a nice ongoing project... I like it...soon will be able to replace Corel's  Painter
<palhmbs> yeah - awesome
<coz_> brush menus  are a bit awkward
<palhmbs> I love all the different brush options
<palhmbs> awkward because their are so many?
<coz_> but  still over all I believe  the natural brush selection to be real nice and of course creating and editing brushes
<coz_> palhmbs,  its appearance ....  but of course you can set a new set and only use brushes  that you like
<coz_> palhmbs,  there are indeed many for sure :)
<coz_> palhmbs,  it is the best natural media option in linux
<coz_> and some un natural brushes as well :)
<coz_> palhmbs,  have you tried Pinta?
<palhmbs> awhile back
<coz_> palhmbs,  its ok  not great  generally I always install these  to have on hand  .,,,   agave...gimp...inkscape...mypaint...pencil... phatch...pinta..sharpconstruct
<palhmbs> thanks for the list -
<palhmbs> I'll have to admit I have tried a few of those
<palhmbs> phatch and sharpconstruct I haven't tho
<coz_> palhmbs,  sharpconstruct is a  3d sculpting application  much like  Z-brush for windows
<coz_> palhmbs,  phatch is for images information   and batch processing
<coz_> see  I am a bad choice to lead I already chased him awa y  :)
<troy_s> coz_: You have seen far's unlimited clay work yes?
<coz_> troy_s,   no I havent
<coz_> troy_s,  is this online?
<troy_s> coz_: Oh... check this out then...
<troy_s> coz_: http://vimeo.com/16358819
<troy_s> coz_: And this is the most recent - http://vimeo.com/17635278 - better smoothing.
<troy_s> coz_: Erk... wrong.
<troy_s> coz_: http://vimeo.com/18532854
<troy_s> coz_: That's the most recent I believe.
<coz_> ooo
<troy_s> coz_: LOL. Understatement.
<troy_s> coz_: Fars got hired by a 3D sculpting software firm about a week ago.
<coz_> I have to try this
<coz_> troy_s,  very cool   is this available?
<coz_> for linux?
<coz_> oh wait this isnt going to be part of blender is it?
<troy_s> coz_: Blender. Yes.
<troy_s> coz_: It's a modifier.
<coz_> oh damn
<troy_s> coz_: So instead of having to subdivide, it intelligently auto subdivides.
<coz_> troy_s,  I would prefer standalone
<troy_s> coz_: Why? You need the rest too.
<troy_s> coz_: Basically it is sculpt mode ++.
<troy_s> coz_: And it works incredibly.
<coz_> sharpconstruct  was standalone then became part of blender and now standalone again
<troy_s> coz_: Stand alone is not an option because there is too much that needs to be added beyond sculpting to make it useful. Namely texturing, UV unwrapping,e tc.
<coz_> troy_s,  ah ok
<troy_s> coz_: By keeping it in Blender, Far makes it even more useful.
<coz_> troy_s,   well maybe I can  try it at some point then
<troy_s> coz_: I suppose if you were saying that you needed a model sculptor for previz that remains a grey white clay with environmental lighting, then yes... standalone could be feasible. Remember though, Far's patch is an amazing bit of work that builds on some amazing bits of work to make it even possible.
<coz_> troy_s,  ok  ... I will give it a whirl
<troy_s> coz_: You must.
<coz_> I wouldnt mind a good sculpting application...cheaper than clay and forges :)
<troy_s> coz_: Undo is a nice plus. LOL.
<troy_s> coz_: Not to mention mirror.
<coz_> :)  absolutely   although sometimes the  lack of undo forces more concentration :)
<coz_> yeah  sharpconstruct has mirroring
<coz_> troy_s,  you have seen most of these I blieve   http://www.flickr.com/photos/57304627@N04/
<troy_s> By god
<troy_s> About bloody time you idiot
<coz_> lol
<troy_s> Are you familiar with Alex Covic?
<coz_> troy_s,  no I am not
<coz_> link?
<troy_s> http://buckybit.tumblr.com/
<troy_s> coz_: I quite like the rambling nature of his sketches... quite interesting stuffs.
<coz_> troy_s,  mm intesting work  ^^
<coz_> troy_s, a bit  pierre alashinskyness there  ,,,
<coz_> nice
<troy_s> coz_: Yeah it's raw. I love it. And I love the sort of complete avoidance of self-editing.
<troy_s> coz_: You familiar with Andreas Beijer?
<coz_> troy_s,  ah oh ...no...I am being educated this evening :)
<troy_s> coz_: He is a force. Burned himself out with commercial work but hasn't put much out... I've been cheerleading for a long while... I love his style...
<troy_s> http://abeijer.blogspot.com/
<troy_s> coz_: He's just recently started putting some work up.
<troy_s> coz_: He's interested in video games as art sorts of things. Very much like Julian Oliver.
<coz_> mm  very sort of minimalistic in a way
<troy_s> coz_: Really digging this sort of feel - http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_SiJZYp4LR7U/TSzei4JmbWI/AAAAAAAAAGA/x4PwBJo-Xug/s1600/lead1.png
<troy_s> coz_: And this one is somewhere close to a Dave McKean feel - http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_SiJZYp4LR7U/TL3GYCI9LCI/AAAAAAAAAFo/hfyTXDxiOnM/s1600/myptest.png
<troy_s> coz_: More sparse... but quite lovely.
<coz_> troy_s,  yes  somewhat of an illustrator
<coz_> be right back
#ubuntu-artwork 2011-01-30
<coz_> good day all
<palhmbs> doctormo, you about?
<palhmbs> I was wondering if there is any way to make a text graphic look good with gimp?
<palhmbs> even if I increase the resolution, the text in a gif looks pixelated - it's on a transparent background....
<thorwil> hello palhmbs
<thorwil> if you show me the image and perhaps explain the steps taken, i might be bale to help
<doctormo> palhmbs: I am about
<doctormo> palhmbs: How did you make the image?
<palhmbs> with gimp - just created a text element - then exported it as jpg
<palhmbs> it's white on transparent
<palhmbs> the effect is ugly
<thorwil> palhmbs: jpg introduces artifacts, worst and most obvious on edged showing strong contrast
<palhmbs> is it best to use svg - with text converted to paths instead?
<palhmbs> or are their other formats / ways of doing this that doesn't introduce those artifacts...
<thorwil> palhmbs: gif and png do well with strong contrast
<thorwil> png isn't limited to 256 colors as gif is, afair
<palhmbs> i'll try a png thanks
<palhmbs> png is just fine - that's great - thanks
<thorwil> np
<thorwil> this seems to be one of the better articles about the differences: http://www.howtogeek.com/howto/30941/whats-the-difference-between-jpg-png-and-gif/
<palhmbs> this is a cool command - find . -size +100k -exec gimp {} \;
<palhmbs> just figured out how to do it...
<palhmbs> mogrify -quality 40 +profile "*" --- is also awesome specially if you combine it with find -exec -- :D
<BlueBomber7> Welcome to batch image processing ;)
<palhmbs> thank you
<palhmbs> I've done a bit of imagemagick stuffs before :D
<palhmbs> I drag a pic of the current cloud & sun position on earth -- http://static.die.net/earth/rectangular/ --- then grab an image of the isobaric pressures and make it transparent and white and overlay and combine --- http://paulhomebus.developingcraftsmanship.com/
<palhmbs> http://static.die.net/earth/rectangular/ \== http://www.die.net/earth/
<palhmbs> I also chop the image up and rejoin them - so that the image centers on a location (New Zealand)
#ubuntu-artwork 2012-01-27
<coz_> hey guys.. nice to see a bunch of new names here
#ubuntu-artwork 2013-01-25
<tacorwin> Hello Everyone!
#ubuntu-artwork 2013-01-27
<ConnorP> Hey
<connor4312> So...
