#launchpad-meeting 2008-04-29
<barry> #startmeeting
<thumper> hi
 * thumper just remembered
<thumper> mwhudson just said he was lunching, so he may be around
<barry> hmm.  seems like mootbot is dead.  guess we'll have to kick this oldschool
<thumper> jml won't be with us today
<barry> ok
<barry> who else is here today?
<thumper> spiv, jamesh: ping
<thumper> barry: it'll be quick if just us
<barry> indeed!  fine with me :)
<barry> shall we wait a minute to see if anybody else shows up?
<thumper> nah, lets go
<barry> rock on
<barry> next meeting?
<thumper> now + 1 week
<barry> works for me
<thumper> next week I'll have mwhudson and jml in the same room as me
<barry> sprinting?
<thumper> yep
<barry> cool, on code hosting?
<thumper> with rockstar_ and abenley too
<thumper> uh ha
<barry> great!  where are you sprinting?
<thumper> Dunedin, NZ
<barry> oh, i bet that will be fun!
<thumper> my town :-)
<barry> :)
<barry> cool... action items
<barry>  * (continued) thumper to report on pending-reviews killer in LP
<barry> :)
<thumper> I did think about it
<mwhudson> hi
<thumper> but not yet written anything
<thumper> on the plus side
<barry> mwhudson: hi
<thumper> we are making good progress on the review stuff
<barry> very cool.  i'm looking forward to being able to do reviews in lp
<mwhudson> sorry for being late
<barry> there were two action items from ameu i think
<barry> mwhudson: no problem
<barry>  * barry drive to decision about multiline sequences
<barry> i haven't written about that but i will before the ameu meeting
<barry>  * we should all chip in and watch for lpreview plugin bugs
<barry> i think that was a plea for all reviewers to help chip in to fix bugs in lpreviews
<mwhudson> there was something about getting it added to sourcecode
<barry> mwhudson: right, i don't know where that is, but i'll ask gmb on wednesday
<barry> mwhudson: also, gmb's got this A/I:  * gmb to prod mwh again about the 800-line limit patch
<mwhudson> i have this vague recollection of it failing because of a bzr bug, but it's very vauge
<mwhudson> i don't think i've been prodded again
<thumper> I don't want a hard limit enfoced by the plugin
<thumper> that'd just annoy me
<thumper> s/enfoced/enforced/
<barry> thumper: there will definitely be an override
<mwhudson> but yeah, what thumper said
<barry> or maybe it'll just publicly shame you instead
<barry> anyway.  i'm sure you and he can work that out :)
<mwhudson> yeah
<barry>  * Queue status
<thumper> nice and pink
<barry> i see jamesh still has our favorite at the #1 spot!
<mwhudson> most of those branches are merged it seems
 * barry forgot he's got to review allenap's branch
<thumper> well, half
<barry> yep.  good to see people taking the admonition to delete their reviewed branches to heart
<barry> (he ways as an offender :)
<barry> er, says
<barry> any comments on the queue from you guys?
<mwhudson> i think it's clear that when we do queue management in lp
<mwhudson> we need to mark branches as merged automagically
<thumper> mwhudson: my magic pqm bit will do that
<thumper> mwhudson: but yes, agreed
<barry> yes definitely
<barry> we'll skip mentoring update
<barry>  * Review process
<barry>    * How to manage workload of reviewing (intellectronica, sinzui? gmb?)
<barry> tho they're not here to defend themselves :)
<mwhudson> move to australasia :)
<Hobbsee> (mootbot probably won't be here anytime soon)
<barry> Hobbsee: is mootbot moot?
<Hobbsee> barry: something like that.
<mwhudson> oh right, ubuntu irc drama
 * barry was getting to like that little bot
<barry> mwhudson: what that mean?
<Hobbsee> mwhudson: yeah, that.
 * thumper must have missed the drama
 * barry too
<Hobbsee> barry: things finally went kaboom.  ask me in #launchpad if you really want to know
<mwhudson> uh, not sure what a good reference would be
<mwhudson> there was a toy-throwing-out-of-pram incident
<mwhudson> with the guy who runs/ran all the ubuntu bots
<barry> prams are baby carriages right? :)
<mwhudson> barry: yes
<thumper> barry: right
<barry> i think i get the picture!
<barry> sigh
<barry> anyway, moving on?
<thumper> yeah
<Hobbsee> barry: freenode decided to give trolls more rights than regular people, and allowed them to roam freely on the network, ignoring anything anyone else said.  oddly enough, people got sick of it.
<Hobbsee> but yes, moving on.
<barry> * comparing strings with `is` (stevea)
<barry>    * overly broad `KeyError`s (stevea)
<barry> these were two things stevea wanted me to bring up, though i'm sure y'all know about them
<mwhudson> uh, comparing strings with is should be a shooting offense already
<barry> he was reviewing a branch that had already been reviewed (for an rc i think) and noticed
<barry> mwhudson: agreed!  i'm mildly surprised that got past a dev, but really suprised that got past a reviewer
<thumper> barry: as in "foo is 'bob'" ?
<barry> thumper: if foo is 'blah':
<barry> yeah
<thumper> barry: eww
<thumper> ok, KeyError?
<barry> so SteveA just wanted me to remind reviewers to catch those things :)
<mwhudson> is there anything deep behind 'overly broad keyerror' ?
<thumper> be specific, make a new exception thing?
<barry> the keyerror one was a case where there was too much code in the try part
<mwhudson> or is that "don't put too much code in ...
<mwhudson> heh
<barry> so that it wasn't clear which piece of code the keyerror was trying to catch
<thumper> ok
<barry> mwhudson: yep, the latter
<mwhudson> k
<barry> i.e. use a try/except/else or put the code after the try/except
<barry> you guys get it
<mwhudson> um
<mwhudson> * How to manage workload of reviewing (intellectronica, sinzui? gmb?)
<mwhudson> kind of got dropped
<thumper> I guess I've sidestepped this
<thumper> as it was brought up that team leads shouldn't do on-call reviewing
<thumper> however I do still do reviews on request
<thumper> and have been doing a number for abentley
<thumper> and will do some for rockstar_
<barry> mwhudson: i'm not sure exactly what intellectronica, et al wanted to say about that
<mwhudson> fair enough
<thumper> barry: I think it was that 20% seemed like a lot of time
<barry> yeah.  in foundations we actually calculate you'll only spend 60% of your time actually coding per week
<thumper> ha
<thumper> if that high
<barry> figuring a day for reviewing and a day for bullsh*t like email
<barry> thumper: yeah, and team leads probably even less
 * thumper smiles
 * barry feels for flacoste
<mwhudson> i think you can argue that reviewing is more important than your own coding tasks
<thumper> yeah, I do
<mwhudson> (there's more investment, and someone else is waiting on you)
<thumper> also you learn by reviewing
<barry> mwhudson: yep, definitely.  but it's human nature to feel like you're slacking on your other work too though
<mwhudson> more realistic planning plz
<thumper> barry: I understand that
<thumper> part could be mitigated by having people realise the 60% thing more though
<mwhudson> (this relates to the pqm/rc gripe thread)
<thumper> so they don't expect to code 8hours a day
<barry> mwhudson: we had an interesting experiment with planning poker for 1.2.4.  preliminary results indicate we under-estimate u/i work and over-estimate backend work
<thumper> this does come back to the "heap of work" and "forced march" feel
<barry> yep
<thumper> barry: I agree with that
<barry> we really need to find a way to avoid that
<thumper> barry: I find that U/I work always takes ages
<mwhudson> barry: interesting
<thumper> barry: like the branch to redo project branches took about 4 days elapsed
<barry> thumper: indeed, it's even worse if you have to grovel around in javascript
<thumper> you think it is simple but then it is just a time sink
<thumper> . o O (hmm.. two more pixels to the left I think..)
<barry> thumper: in my experience, nothing's changed.  it was that way with u/i crap 20 years ago
<mwhudson> i guess my summary is
<thumper> ha, I realised the other day that I've had almost 20 years of professional programmign now :-(
<thumper> and I still can't type
<mwhudson> if you have too much 'real work' to do reviews, you have too much 'real work'
<thumper> mwhudson: +1
<barry> mwhudson: +1
<mwhudson> i guess we need to make sure the reviewing is spread around fairly though
<mwhudson> i guess you could gather some stats on that
<thumper> we used to record number of hours a week doing reviews
<thumper> how about we reinstate that somehow
<barry> thumper: i still record that
<thumper> ah, ok
<mwhudson> i've always been rubbish at that
<barry> but yeah, we don't collate that anymore.  otoh, after my ocr, i'm really unmotivated to do reviews (well, that aren't follow ons)
<barry> any way, got anything else for me?
<mwhudson> anyway, i guess we should see what the people who proposed the topic have to say
<thumper> nothing from me
<barry> mwhudson: yep, i'll summarize that after wednesday's meeting
<barry> okay then...
<barry> #endmeeting
<barry> ha ha
<barry> g'nite all!
<mwhudson> bye & thanks
<barry> thanks
#launchpad-meeting 2008-04-30
<sinzui> To the tune of _Doe a deer_:
<sinzui> Dough, the thing that buys my beer
<sinzui> Ray, the guy that pours my beer
<sinzui> Me, the guy that drink my beer
<barry> Fa, the sound i make when i drink too much beer
<sinzui> So, I'll have another beer
<sinzui> Tea? No thanks I'll have a beer
<barry> #startmeeting
<intellectronica> me
<barry> mootbot's pushing up daisies so we're kicking this old school
<barry> who's here today?
<statik> me
<gmb> me
<bac> me
<sinzui> me
<schwuk> me
<flacoste> me
<BjornT> me
<allenap> me
<barry> salgado: ping
<barry> bigjools: ping
<barry> == Agenda ==
<barry>  * Roll call
<barry>  * Next meeting
<barry>  * Action items
<barry>  * Queue status
<barry>  * Mentoring update
<barry>  * Review process
<barry>    * How to manage workload of reviewing (intellectronica, sinzui? gmb?)
<barry>    * comparing strings with `is` (stevea)
<barry>    * overly broad `KeyError`s (stevea)
<barry>    * adding lpreview to sourcecode?
<barry>    * People should be updating sampledata when they add columns to tables (gmb). All too often I find myself running make newsampledata only to discover a bunch of changes that are nothing to do with me and which merely do things like setting new fields to NULL. This inflates the linecount of a diff and, worse, makes sampledata harder to debug. People should be running make newsampledata on their DB patch branches, or at least on the c
<barry> ode branches that descend from the DB patches.
<barry>      * Perhaps add a check to the lint report? -- GavinPanella
<barry>  * Next meeting
<barry> today += weeks(1) ?
<barry> anybody know you'll be missing?
<statik> wouldn't miss it for anything
<barry> great!
<barry>  * Action items
<barry>  * barry drive to decision about multiline sequences
<barry> i suck, but i will do this today or tomorrow
<barry>  * gmb to add lpreview to sourcecode and hack rf-setup to link it in
<gmb> Haven't touched this since last week what with roll-out coming up
<gmb> But mthaddon was having trouble branching it for sourcecode.
<gmb> I'll tackle this once rollout is complete.
<barry> gmb: sounds great, thanks
<barry>  * bigjools to email list about cleaning up after branches land
<salgado> me
<barry> bigjools is mia, but i /think/ this was done, wasn't it?
<salgado> sorry for being late
<barry> salgado: no worries
<sinzui> barry: It was done
<barry> sinzui: ok, thanks
<barry>  * gmb to prod mwh again about the 800-line limit patch
<gmb> FAIL.
<gmb> Will do it today.
<barry> we'll just continue this one
<barry>  * intellectronica to add js style guide link to TipsForReviewers
<intellectronica> i'm pretty sure i did this last week, let me check
<intellectronica> i did
<barry> intellectronica: thanks!
<barry>  * sinzui to update js style guide page with helpful resources
<sinzui> Not Done
<barry> no worries, we'll just continue this one
<barry>  * Queue status
 * barry can't get to the PR wiki
<intellectronica> my sincere apologies for not doing any PR reviews (and rejecting a few on irc). i must finish some stuff before the release
<barry> ah there it is
<barry> intellectronica: it happens
<bac> leonard's is the only one in the general queue.  i didn't have time to get to it yesterday
<bac> and he just added it to the GQ
<barry> maybe we should just assign leonard's branch to someone?
<barry> anybody have time to review it?
<gmb> barry: I will after today.
<barry> gmb: great, thanks
<barry> gmb: can i put it in your queue?
<gmb> sure
<barry> cool
<barry> anything else on the queue?
<barry>  * Mentoring update
<barry> bac: wanna do the honors?
<bac> yes
<bac> Today we're graduating Gavin.  Well done and hoorah.
 * gmb applauds
 * allenap does \o/
<sinzui> \o/
<intellectronica> go allenap!
<flacoste> congratulations allenap!
<allenap> Thanks bac :)
<schwuk> \o/
<bac> it was my pleasure
<barry> allenap: congrats!
<allenap> Thanks everyone.
<barry> now that we have an open slot and EdwinGrubbs has been nominated for recruitment,  we need a mentor for him though
<barry> salgado: do you think you can mentor him?
<salgado> barry, I was thinking about that
<barry> salgado: you don't have to answer right now.  just let me know
<barry> salgado: if you can't that's cool, we'll find another mentor for him
<salgado> if I mentor him, what happens with my on-call term?
<statik> while mentoring is important, I think we should also feel comfortable taking a month off from mentoring, to avoid burnout
<salgado> can EdwinGrubbs take it over and I only mentor him during that day?
<barry> salgado: EdwinGrubbs would be oncall with you and he would do most if not all of the reviews.  you would mentor his reviews, but hopefully not do too many of your own
<barry> statik: do you think we should do that team-wide, or just for a particular mentor?
<sinzui> salgado: That is essentially what I have done working with schwuk
<statik> barry: I just wanted to mention it, we all sometimes need to hear that it is ok to say no :)
<salgado> okay, I can do it, then
<barry> statik: right you are
<barry> just like rejecting branches, it is okay to say no!
<barry> salgado: awesome, thanks
<intellectronica> no
<barry> intellectronica: not you though
<barry> :)
<salgado> EdwinGrubbs, you start tomorrow. ;)
<barry> :)
<barry> anything else on mentoring?
<barry> moving on...
<barry>  * Review process
<barry>    * How to manage workload of reviewing (intellectronica, sinzui? gmb?)
<barry> i apologize for not remembering who wanted to talk about this
<barry> the floor is open (just let me know when you're done)
<intellectronica> i think it isn't really about work load
<intellectronica> more about work scheduling
<intellectronica> the work load is not something we can influence, anyway
<sinzui> I have concluded that schwuk reads 1.5 faster than I do, so he can easily over whelm me. I'm not taking reviews while he is reviewing.
<intellectronica> the problem i identified, is that having a whole day dedicated to reviewing in the middle of the week is often too distracting for me
<bigjools> me - late, sorry :(
<intellectronica> it means that i have to drop whatever i was doing on the days before that, and can't respond to anything other than reviews
<intellectronica> i was wondering if anybody has any thoughts about this, or ideas for managing it better
<flacoste> how others who are on-call middle-of-week feels about that?
<barry> intellectronica: would it make sense to rotate ocr days every now and then?  i find mondays are nicely segmented, but when it rains, they can be triply depressing :)
<intellectronica> :)
<intellectronica> yes, i can imagine mondays and firdays are a bit better
<schwuk> Friday works well for being on call, but I can see what intellectronica is talking about.
<bac> my problem is my on-call day spills over and eats most of the next morning, which sinzui has discussed before.
<salgado> I prefer to have one day in which I concentrate on reviews than to do reviews for a couple hours every day
<bac> tuesday has not been a problem
<intellectronica> salgado: right, so it's a matter of personal preference. not really something we can generalise
<barry> my biggest fear is that we'll burn out on doing reviews.  maybe we need a reviewer's vacation?
<sinzui> bac: I would stop early if I felt I had too many needs-reply
<bac> sinzui: yes.  it gets more difficult when you're working with a mentee.  i just need to manage the time better.
<intellectronica> barry: that's a nice option, but with the current work load, it risks only increasing the work for other reviewers
<sinzui> intellectronica: Europe is now filled with on-call reviewers, so it is possible for one to take a week off
<bigjools> maybe we can fast-track extra reviewers?
<statik> do we have enough reviewers now for people to be on call every two weeks instead of every week?
<barry> i'll note that if someone is really swamped, we've done one-time skips of ocr or switch days
<intellectronica> sinzui: well, i'm pretty much doing this today
<gmb> I did that last week.
<bac> statik: i don't think that is feasible yet
<sinzui> allenap: You will be sharing a slot I think
<allenap> sinzui: Fine with me.
 * sinzui is looking at https://launchpad.canonical.com/OnCallReviewers
<bac> allenap: what slot are you taking?
<statik> bac: you're right, because of timezones
 * intellectronica notices that he's got the only slot that doesn't have anyone before or after it
<sinzui> intellectronica: right!
<intellectronica> it could be that this contributes to my workload, and that other shifts are not as problematic
<allenap> bac: I guess I could do Thursday with intellectronica.
<barry> intellectronica: maybe allenap can share or overlap with you?
<intellectronica> allenap: what do you say? i'd like that
<allenap> intellectronica: Me too :) Done deal.
<bac> allenap: or even wednesday with intellectronica
<allenap> bac: Oh yeah, doh :)
<sinzui> intellectronica: rockstar_: and abentley would have to emigrate to fill those AsiaPac slots
<barry> allenap: great, please update OnCallReviewers
<allenap> barry: Done.
<salgado> maybe we should keep track of how many reviews are done in each term
<barry> allenap: you're not keeping your tuesday slot though, right?
<allenap> barry: No, I just deleted that. I'm not doing well today.
<salgado> that could help balancing the workload
<barry> allenap: thanks
<barry> salgado: that came up in asiapac.  i know i keep track of my review time (using gtimelog) but we're not gathering those statistics any more
<salgado> right, that's why I suggested number of reviews, which is way easier to track
<salgado> maybe just filling a googledocs spreadsheet would do for now
<barry> let's do this: if you have a suggestion for improving the review process, email me or the list.  i'll try to put together a couple of concrete proposals and we can try them out for a cycle or two and see what we like
<salgado> I mean, it's better than nothing and we don't have to go through launchpad-reviews counting email messages
<barry> we've got two more issues, hopefully quick ones
<barry>  * comparing strings with `is` (stevea)
<barry>    * overly broad `KeyError`s (stevea)
<barry> these were things steve saw in a branch he was rc'ing and he wanted me to just mention them here so you all are aware of them
<barry> first, nobody should ever compare strings with 'is' or 'is not'
<barry> i think the code example was: if foo is 'bar':
<barry> always use == and != to compare strings
<barry> any questions about that one?
<barry> cool
<barry> second one is really about putting too much code in the try clause of a try/except
<barry> there was a case where inside the try, it wasn't clear which line of code the KeyError was trying to catch, so it would be possible to mask bugs
<barry> so watch out for too much stuff inside the try and encourage coders to use an else clause or to put the success code outside the try/except (as appropriate)
<barry> does that make sense/
<barry> er, sense?
 * sinzui mutters Py 2.5
<flacoste> how 2.5 affects this?
<sinzui> No, not specifically. I recall see nested trys because of else and finally
<intellectronica> and it will be great to have conditional expressions
<barry> yes, you can get rid of most of your nested try/finally try/excepts
<barry> intellectronica: and with statements!
<rockstar_> sinzui, I wouldn't mind.  I've been instructed by the other half to think real estate in NZ next week.
<barry> anyway.  that's all i have today.  we've got 3 more minutes, so i'll open the floor
<gmb> barry: sampledata
<barry> gmb: dang, right
<barry> gmb: take it
<gmb> It's on the agenda, but it's pretty self explanatory.
<sinzui> rockstar_: really? I thought the antipodeans only accepted full reviewers.
<gmb> If you see a branch that hangs off a DB patch can you check that the developer has updated sampledata appropriately?
 * barry was looking at the wrong tab
<gmb> Many of these will be fixed in the DB review anyway.
 * sinzui notes that they traded mpt for mwhudson
<gmb> BUt if a new field can be NULL and defaults there to then developers don't always make newsampledata
<gmb> Which makes it hard work for the poor schmuck that does.
<gmb> (And his reviewer, not incidentally).
<intellectronica> right, so that needs to be part of the review 'checklist', i guess
<gmb> Yes.
<gmb> barry: I'll update that.
<flacoste> it could even be automated
<barry> gmb: thanks
<flacoste> make newsampledata and no changes should appear
<flacoste> with the previous one
<gmb> flacoste: I'm not sure I understand you.
<salgado> yeah, that'd do a nice test
<barry> flacoste: as part of make lint?
<flacoste> yes
<flacoste> or another test by review-submit
<gmb> It'd be nice to make it part of make lint.
<sinzui> flacoste: That's a clever idea
<barry> +1
<barry> flacoste: wanna take a crack at it?
<BjornT> i don't think we should enforce creating new sample data when submitting the branch for review
 * flacoste looks at sinzui - another good reason to replace jamesh lint
<BjornT> if it's not needed, it will produce a much larger diff, and the branch will be prone for conflicts
<gmb> Why do we need to replace jamesh?
<gmb> Oh, wait.
<gmb> screen was being silly.
<BjornT> much better to generate the sample data just before submitting the branch to pqm
<gmb> Carry on.
<flacoste> BjornT: problem is that we delay the price
<flacoste> BjornT: that's also good
<flacoste> i thought you were suggesting not updating sampledata at all
<flacoste> unless absolutely needed
<salgado> if that's what we want we can make the test suggested by flacoste part of our test suite
<rockstar_> sinzui, I don't really get that joke...  :(
<barry> okay, sorry, we're 3 minutes over now.  let's think about the sampledata test and i'll put it on the list for next week
<barry> #endmeeting
<barry> thanks everyone!
<statik> thanks everybuddy
<flacoste> thanks barry
<intellectronica> thanks barry
<barry> (everyone except mootbot)
<sinzui> rockstar_: the only person who was ANZ not a review was mpt, He moved to UK. mwhudson who became a reviewer moved to NZ
<rockstar_> Ah, I see.
<sinzui> rockstar_: The antipodeans seem to prefer, for lack of a better word, 'rockstars'
 * rockstar_ goes to learn the reviewer secret handshakes...  :)
<Hobbsee> rockstar_: don't forget to sacrifice the goat first.
<rockstar_> sinzui, perfect!  The only problem now is that I've only been around for a week and a half now.
<sinzui> I think ibex is the animal of choice
<Hobbsee> sinzui: oh, i thought we were keeping them for ubuntu sacrifices.
<sinzui> Hobbsee: We like Ubunut
<sinzui> Hobbsee: We like Ubuntu
<rockstar_> sinzui, our move would be solely based upon U.S. politics.  :)
<Hobbsee> sinzui: so you should sacrifice things to make it work properly, no?
<Hobbsee> apparently we're out of zebras.
<rockstar_> Shit!  Who do we talk to in order to get more?
<sinzui> rockstar_: I've been thinking on Montreal for similar reasons
<rockstar_> sinzui, you're in AsiaPac?
<sinzui> rockstar_: No. I loved living in Australia as a child. I work on the Foundations team so I should be stay on the East coast of North America, Caribbean, or South American
<rockstar_> Oh crap, I would totall be down in the Carribean...
<rockstar_> I lived there for a while.  I'd think about going back, but that'd be a step in the wrong direction...
<sinzui> rockstar_: Consider Hawaii. Fiji has some bad politics
<rockstar_> Hawaii is still the U.S.
<sinzui> Half is owned by Nippon
<rockstar_> Hawaii?
<sinzui> yeah? 50% of land and business is owned by Japanese investors I believe
<rockstar_> So it's not U.S. soil>
 * rockstar_ grumbles and the things the U.S. "fails to mention" in public school...
<sinzui> rockstar_: I learned to study a nation's history in another nation.
<rockstar_> sinzui, good idea.  Living in Texas 'til I was 11, I only ever learned Texas history.  No U.S. history even.
<sinzui> rockstar_: France has little to say about Napoleon. The US does not mentioned Native Americans and genocide very often
<sinzui> rockstar_: Texas is it's own state of mind.
<rockstar_> Yea, we killed a lot of Mexicans...
<sinzui> And stole a lot of land
 * rockstar_ redacts the "we" and adds "they"
<sinzui> rockstar_: Australia just officially apologised for taking generations of children from their families. NZ is in rights disputes with the Maori. There is a lot of crime to redact 'we' with 'they'
<rockstar_> sinzui, well, problems are problems.  It's more about the "looking forward" solution.  At least the Australians apologized...
<sinzui> rockstar_: I agree.
#launchpad-meeting 2008-05-01
<Rinchen> #startmeeting
<Rinchen> doh
<Rinchen> the one time I don't look for mootbot
 * barry mourns mootbot
<matsubara> mootbot is on holiday
<barry> Rinchen: mootbot is an ex-mootbot, it's pushing up daisies
<Rinchen> ah well, old fashioned way today I guess
<Rinchen> Welcome to this week's Launchpad development meeting. For the next 45 minutes or so, we'll be coordinating Launchpad development.
<Rinchen> Roll Call
<Rinchen> me!
<statik> me
<barry> me
<matsubara> me
<schwuk> me
<salgado> me
<gmb> me
<flacoste> me
<mars> me
<bigjools> me
<bac> me
<herb_> me
<intellectronica> me
<thumper> me
<sinzui> me
<leonardr> me
<EdwinGrubbs> me
<rockstar_> me
<allenap> me
<mrevell> me
<Rinchen> I have apologies from Brazil, Germany, Lithuania, and Netherlands
<Rinchen> I'm missing mpt and kiko
<flacoste> Foundations is complete
<Rinchen> I'll keep running I guess...see if we pick up stragglers
<mars> kiko is at lunch I think
<Rinchen> * Next meeting
<Rinchen> Anyone know they will be away next week?
<thumper> Rinchen: code team will be sprinting
<thumper> I'll be here, but the rest probably wont
<abentley> me
<Rinchen> Ok, same time same please next week then.
<Rinchen> * Actions from last meeting
<Rinchen> there were none
<Rinchen> * Oops report (Matsubara)
<Rinchen> matsubara ^^
<matsubara> No specific oops report today. I've been following up with people about post rollout oopses
<Rinchen> Thanks
<matsubara> thank you
<Rinchen> * Critical Bugs (Rinchen)
<Rinchen> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/launchpad/+bug/206654
<Rinchen> This is the memory issue.  It appears to have returned. flacoste, can you comment on what we should do now? More ref counts?
<ubottu> Rinchen: Error: This bug is private
<flacoste> Rinchen: yes, start the monitoring instance again and wait for its memory usage to go up
<flacoste> Rinchen: that worked very nicely last time
<thumper> did we find leaks
<thumper> ?
<Rinchen> flacoste, great.  Start tomorrow maybe so we get a weekend history?
<Rinchen> yes thumper, one big one found and fixed
<thumper> cool
<flacoste> Rinchen: yes, that's the idea, he LOSAs are aware of this and that was our plan
<Rinchen> flacoste, great thanks
<Rinchen> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/launchpad/+bug/224623
<Rinchen> DB load.
<ubottu> Rinchen: Error: This bug is private
<Rinchen> stub isn't here
<flacoste> thumper: it was in +bugs-text (the text bug search)
<Rinchen> herb, can you please touch base with mthaddon on this tomorrow morning and see if he can ping stub about this?
<herb_> sure
<Rinchen> thanks herb
<Rinchen> There are few more criticals but we're all aware of those and working on them.  Thanks.
<Rinchen> * Bug tags
<Rinchen> there are no proposals today
<Rinchen>  * Operations report (mthaddon/herb)
<Rinchen> herb_ ^^
<herb_> 1.2.4 Rollout well, with the exception of some problems with buildbot/importd.
<herb_> Tom is off tomorrow and my EOD is 2130 UTC. So any additional rollouts will need
<herb_>  to be through PQM early enough for me to complete them by 2130.
<herb_> And we've already discussed the two bugs that were on my list
<herb_> high load on the db and the memory leak
<herb_> so that's it from Tom and I unless there are any questions.
<Rinchen> thanks herb
<Rinchen>  * DBA report (stub)
<Rinchen> stub's not available today
<Rinchen> * Sysadmin requests (Rinchen)
<Rinchen> Is anyone blocked on an RT or have any that are becoming urgent?
 * bigjools waves as usual
<cprov> me (very late, sorry)
<Rinchen> bigjools, ping me tomorrow afternoon and let's see if we can't make some progress on that
<bigjools> Rinchen: roger.
<Rinchen> thanks
<Rinchen> * New packages required (salgado)
<flacoste> salgado: you already handled python-epydoc?
<salgado> do we need any other packages for this cycle?
<salgado> flacoste, I did
<salgado> but looks like I did something wrong
<salgado> I'll sort it out
<Rinchen> thanks salgado
<Rinchen> * A top user-affecting issue (mrevell)
<mrevell> Hello. We've had a few requests, lately, that complain about the volume of bug mail or that request a temporary holiday from bug mail.
<mrevell> So, I wonder if we could have a "Suspend my bug mail" button in Launchpad accounts.
<flacoste> mrevell: we have a bug for that
<flacoste> mrevell: and it was scheduled for next cycle, don't know if that will hold yet though
<mrevell> flacoste: Ah, I didn't find it. Thanks for letting me know.
<matsubara> the vacation mode one?
<mrevell> matsubara: That sounds right
<barry> yep
<flacoste> mrevell: https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/launchpad/+spec/launchpad-vacation, there's a bug link to the spec iirc
<mrevell> Great, that's brilliant news. Thanks flacoste for the link, back to you Rinchen :)
<Rinchen> thanks mrevell
<Rinchen> * Doc Team report (mrevell)
 * mrevell changes hats
<mrevell> I'd like to share some of the feedback I've had on our new release notes format from some of our more hardended users. The feedback is largely positive but, earlier in #launchpad, there was some mourning for the loss of the more comprehensive changelog format and another request for regular updates of what's changed on Edge.
<mrevell> In future, if you've worked on something cool, expect me to ask you for a quote (or more) for the release announcement :)
<mrevell> Talking of which, I'd love a call with each team lead next week to discuss 1.2.5's docs needs and what stand-out features we should talk about in the release announcement!
<gmb> mrevell: Could we add the full changelog as an attachment?
<gmb> ... to the abbreviated version, I mean.
<gmb> Or put it on t'wiki or something?
<statik> mrevell: I liked the quote from thumper
<mrevell> gmb: Maybe, but it's additional work. So it's something we need to discuss, I tihnk
<statik> I think that is a nice touch in the release announcement
<gmb> Right.
<mrevell> yes statik, thumper's quote was ace
<Rinchen> "Ace"? wow, you're showing your age :-)
<mrevell> Oh, and one other thing: I'm going to put out a call for user questions for our podcast. If you want to be in the podcast or have an idea for a feature, please update the Podcast page on our team wiki. I'd like to record and publish it next week.
<mrevell> Rinchen: :)
<mrevell> And, to come back to the name of this section, I'll be putting some effort into the doc team next week
<mrevell> thanks, back to you Rinchen.
<Rinchen> thanks mrevell
<Rinchen> There are no proposed topics and we have a lot to do in 30 minutes or so .....
<Rinchen> Thank you all for attending this week's Launchpad Developer Meeting. See the channel topic for the location of the logs.
<Rinchen> = The End! =
<mrevell> thanks Rinchen
<thumper> OMG!!
<thumper> quickest ever
<flacoste> Rinchen: go, go, go!
<gmb> ZOOOOOM
<Rinchen> actually in this case, the channel topic won't help
<thumper> thanks Rinchen
<gmb> Rinchen: greased for speed.
<bac> good job joey
<gmb> bad mental image there...
<flacoste> lol
 * bigjools blinks and looks at his watch
<barry> me
<barry> oh wait
<bigjools> moo
<barry> :)
#launchpad-meeting 2008-05-03
 * mpt realizes he totally forgot last Thursday's meeting
#launchpad-meeting 2009-04-29
<barry> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 09:01. The chair is barry.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<barry> hello and welcome to this week's ameu reviewer's meeting.  who's here today?
<bac> me
<abentley> me
<gary_poster> me
<rockstar> me
<mars> me
<al-maisan> me
<adeuring> me
<BjornT> me
<henninge> me
<noodles775> me
<bigjools> me
<gmb> me
<barry> cprov: ping
<barry> danilos: ping
<danilos> me
<barry> EdwinGrubbs: ping
<cprov> me
<EdwinGrubbs> me
<barry> intellectronica: ping
<intellectronica> me
<barry> salgado: ping
<barry> [TOPIC] agenda
<MootBot> New Topic:  agenda
<salgado> me
<barry>  * Roll call
<barry>  * Don't forget your OCR slot
<barry>  * Action items
<barry>  * Mentoring update
<barry>    * need a volunteer to mentor noodles
<barry>  * Peanut gallery (anything not on the agenda)
<barry>    * JS coding guidelines (mars, intellectronica)
<barry>    * ampersands-in-urls (abentley)
<barry> [TOPIC]  * Don't forget your OCR slot
<MootBot> New Topic:   * Don't forget your OCR slot
<barry> i've heard some rumors that folks sometimes miss their ocr slot.  just wanted to ask that you please try to fill them.  we all count on each other to get branches reivewed and landed
<barry> i know we're all busy, but think of the team!
<barry> if you really can't fill your slot for some reason, please let me or your fellow reviewers know, and try to find a backup if possible
<barry> and remember, we have sabbaticals if you're burned out for a while
<barry> that's it from me!  any thoughts?
<cprov> yeah, I feel guilty.
<al-maisan> I will be on secondment to the foundations team for the next 3 months
<abentley> barry: Perhaps, let everyone know if you
<fjlacoste> me
<abentley> 're sick and can't find a replacement.
<bigjools> al-maisan: Ubuntu Foundations, to be precise
<barry> abentley: +1
<al-maisan> ..and hence not in a position to review on Tuesdays
<abentley> (rather than just reviewers)
<barry> a quick email to the ml would help
<al-maisan> bigjools: thanks for the correction :)
<cprov> fjlacoste: is this nick the dutch version for 'flacoste' ?
<barry> al-maisan: cool, we'll need to shuffle ocr schedule around
<al-maisan> barry: thanks!
<barry> al-maisan: i'll mark up ReviewerSchedule.  tuesdays aren't too bad, with gmb in euro and bac & rockstar in west
<al-maisan> OK .. that's good.
<danilos> I am off this Thursday (swap day)
<danilos> which means, no euro coverage tomorrow unless someone wants to take over
<cprov> danilos: err, me too, I was counting on you ...
 * bigjools has a 10k branch coming soon as well, what a shame
<danilos> any candidate willing to take Thursday out of my hands is welcome to
<bigjools> 10k LOC, that is
<barry> danilos: ouch!  no coverage for tomorrow?
<rockstar> This meeting probably isn't a good venue to share when you'll miss OCR
<cprov> barry: it's already bad now that I'm on EU timezone.
<danilos> rockstar: well, if we are reminded how we need to find a replacement, it might be a good place to find one
<danilos> cprov, barry: ok, let's take this outside the meeting
<gmb> bigjools: Good luck with that ;)
<rockstar> danilos: at the expense of the other things on the agenda?
 * cprov nods
<bigjools> r=gmb!
<al-maisan> :)
<gmb> AHAHAAHAHANo.
<danilos> rockstar: if it's easy, yes... since nobody has volunteered, it's not, so let's move on
<barry> cprov: we can move you to euro slot and we can split up bac/rockstar or salgado/barry
<barry> i will now skip around
<barry> [TOPIC] mentoring update
<MootBot> New Topic:  mentoring update
<barry>    * need a volunteer to mentor noodles
<barry> we need a mentor for noodles, preferrably in euro timeslot
<cprov> I can do it.
<noodles775> Thanks cprov :)
<barry> cprov: awesome thanks
<cprov> It's my pleasure.
<barry> cprov, noodles775 we'll discuss off line where we can slot you guys in
<noodles775> Yup
<cprov> okay
<henninge> off-line? like writing letters?
<henninge> ;)
<rockstar> henninge: yes.  Support your local post.
<barry> henninge: pigeon (not pidgin :)
<barry> henninge: any word on your mentoring?  how's it going?
<abentley> rockstar: In soviet canada, posts support you.
<rockstar> abentley: :)
<henninge> barry: very well, thank you
<henninge> barry: very well, thank you
<henninge> barry: adeuring is doing a good job
<barry> i knew he would!  good to hear, thanks
<barry> any other mentoring issues?
<adeuring> well, I'd say, no complaints with henninge's work :)
<henninge> adeuring: ;)
<barry> adeuring: i hope you're cracking the whip!
<barry> :)
<adeuring> barry: from time to time ;)
<barry> :-D
<barry> [TOPIC] action items
<MootBot> New Topic:  action items
<barry>  * gary_poster to take importfascist and rSP() discussion to ml
<gary_poster> h'ain't done it.  Intend to do it today.
<barry> gary_poster: cool
<barry>  * allenap to look into storm/sqlobject result set compatibility
<barry> oops, he's not here
<gmb> allenap's away this week
<barry>  * flacoste to work on API reviewer cheat sheet
<gmb> I suspect he didn't get very far though
<fjlacoste> i didn't
<barry> gmb: nod
<barry> fjlacoste: keep it on the list? :)
<fjlacoste> sure
<bigjools> he changed his nick this week out of embarassment maybe
<fjlacoste> lol
<barry> cool
<barry> [TOPIC]  * Peanut gallery (anything not on the agenda)
<MootBot> New Topic:   * Peanut gallery (anything not on the agenda)
<barry> actually, there were two items we didn't get to from last week
<barry>    * JS coding guidelines (mars, intellectronica)
<fjlacoste> mthaddon: can we close merge to devel?
<barry> mars, intellectronica can either of you talk about this today?
<gary_poster> fjlacoste: wrong room :-)
<intellectronica> i don't remember raising this. mars?
<mars> barry, yep
<barry> mars: the floor is yours
<intellectronica> perhaps just to remind about testing with devmode off as part of the review
<mars> so this is a question to the JavaScript coders in the room
<mars> in Python, we are always explicit in comparisons: if x is not None
<mars> instead of: if !x
<barry> mars: does js have the same expanded notion of trueness/falseness as python, or is it more strict like java?
<mars> so Tom and I were debating doing the same in JavaScript.  I prefer the coercive form, he prefers explicit
<mars> barry, the types aren't as clean
<intellectronica> barry: it's even more lax, and very confusing, with coercing to boolean
<rockstar> I prefer the explicit, but it's not always possible.
<mars> barry, in JavaScript, null == undefined == 0 == false
<rockstar> Er, not always clean.
<intellectronica> my position was that i like the explicit version, having learned to appreciate it coding (and reading) python
<mars> right
<rockstar> intellectronica: I tend to agree with you.
<barry> rockstar: why is it not always possible?
<mars> and mine was that because JavaScript can throw 'undefined' at you, you need the coercive form
<intellectronica> rockstar: both options are possible technically. it's just a matter of style
<gary_poster> mochikit has a whole equivalence framework in part because of the JS bool mess (but there are other nastinesses as well)
<mars> gary_poster, yech
<mars> didn't know that
<rockstar> barry: intellectronica: I've been bitten by bugs in cases of empty strings evaluating to true.
<barry> ew
<EdwinGrubbs> I just worry about all tests having to be (x === null or x === undefined) which is unweildy.
<bigjools> oof
<mars> barry, and [] and {} are also true
<intellectronica> rockstar: well, that's exactly why you'd want to compare explicitly
<barry> ew ew
<rockstar> I feel like === means we're back to php land.
<rockstar> intellectronica: so you're saying I should have used if x != ''
<intellectronica> rockstar: yup
<barry> remember that in our python style guide, we're allowed to use "if not foo:" when foo can be of several types (e.g. None or [] for example)
<intellectronica> rockstar: or use foo.length
<barry> we just require a comment explaining that the simpler choice was deliberate
<rockstar> We kinda lose the loose typing at that point.  :/
<intellectronica> explicit comparison is an easy rule to follow. just compare explicitly to anything you might expect be in the value
<flacoste> rockstar: if x !== ''
<mars> barry, ok, in JavaScript, you sometimes still want explicit comparison, if null is a flag value
<rockstar> flacoste: yea, I know.  Was in a hurry.
<barry> mars: yep
<abentley> barry: Even so, I find "if foo == [] or foo is None" shorter than "if not foo" plus a comment.
<mars> barry, so in my mind the question more revolves around the 'wandering undefineds' problem
<rockstar> Okay, I think we should be explicit, and anywhere we aren't requires some serious 'splainin.
<intellectronica> rockstar: loose typing is sometimes great, and sometimes it makes the code hard to read. if you have loose typing it's up to you to protect against getting values you don't expect
<barry> abentley: well, if len(foo) == 0 or foo is None, but it /is/ more explicit
<rockstar> intellectronica: yes, this is true.  Python really is awesome at its typing.
<barry> aren't unexpected undefineds a sign of buggy code?
<mars> so, is "if (!config) {}" hard to read?
<barry> mars: not hard to read, hard to know the intent
<mars> intellectronica, rockstar, because 'config' could be null, if the user explicity said "I don't want this parameter", or "undefined", if the user just passed in some_config_obj.some_attr
<intellectronica> mars: it is, yes, harder than if (config !== null && config !== undefined)
<rockstar> mars: yeah, I agree with intellectronica
<mars> ok.  I should ask what you guys thing of trinary operators too, because that is the other place where I use coercion
<intellectronica> trinary operators? as in condition ? then-expr : else-expr ?
<mars> var bar = cfg ? cfg.foo : 0;
 * barry looks at his own first pathetic attempt at js and realizes he needs to fix his code ;)
<mars> but I guess the intent there is clear
<mars> and it's idiomatic, so no issue?
<intellectronica> mars: thses should be used sparingly, but when you do, there's no reason why you can't use the verbose version
<intellectronica> the case above is quite idiomatic
<barry> mars: i would love to see parentheses after the = and before the ;
<rockstar> mars: let us avoid them.  Clarity in code, and optimization when the javascript is "compiled"
<intellectronica> but following a simple rule is so much easier than making exceptions for idioms or whatever
<rockstar> intellectronica: +1
<barry> intellectronica: +1
<gmb> +1
<noodles775> +1
<barry> do we need to vote?  mars?
<mars> you guys would have a great time browsing the jquery source code then :)
<intellectronica> :D
<mars> barry, ^ that looks like a vote to me
<rockstar> mars: :)
<mars> a majority vote, rather
<barry> yep
<rockstar> DONE!
<barry> [AGREED] explicit is better than implicit in javascript comparisons
<MootBot> AGREED received:  explicit is better than implicit in javascript comparisons
<barry>    * ampersands-in-urls (abentley)
<barry> abentley: i don't remember the details on this, do you?
<abentley> barry: We didn't talk much.
<barry> abentley: the floor is yours
<abentley> Everyone knows that ampersands must be provided as entity references in HTML, right?
<abentley> e.g. &amp;
<abentley> Everyone knows that this applies when the ampersand is part of a URL in an attribute, right?
<mars> yes :)
<abentley> e.g. <a href="example.ort?a=b&amp;c=d">
<mars> no, I didn't know that
<abentley> mars: It is very common to do otherwise, but it's not valid HTML.
<mars> would the w3c validator catch that?  Or our linter?
<intellectronica> abentley: i think the nest solution for that is to build your URL in python, using a formatter
<intellectronica> it's quite rare that you'll have a fixed URL with GET parameters you can include in a template directly
<abentley> mars: I think the wc3 validator would.  I can report back if you like.
<barry> abentley: wouldn't that be example.ort?a=b%26b&b=c ?
<abentley> intellectronica: That's kinda where I'm going to.  Should we be calling "escape" on URLs that we provide to TAL as part of a structure?
<mars> abentley, we first need to answer a larger question - it is valid HTML, but do we actually feel the need to adhere to it strictly?
<rockstar> barry: yea, that is right.
<mars> abentley, I ask because I don't know if we absolutely ensure we have valid markup throughout Launchpad
<mars> abentley, or if it is a "nice to have"
<rockstar> mars: it's a goal we should aspire to.
<abentley> barry: No, that would make the value of a "b&"
<abentley> barry: I think.
<intellectronica> abentley: i think we need to go further, and have a function that builds the url for us from base url and a two-tuple of query parameters
<mars> rockstar, agreed
<barry> th evalue would be 'b&b'
<barry> was that not the intent?
<abentley> barry: no.
<barry> er, sorry, 'b&'
<abentley> The intent was a=b, c=d
<rockstar> Well, in the case that brought this up, I was just using canonical_url, so maybe canonical_url would be good to escape these things.
<BjornT> rockstar: canonical_url is used in other places than html templates
<abentley> rockstar: If canonical_url html-escaped the URLs, they would not be valid URLs.  They would be the HTML-escaped forms of valid URLs.
<barry> intellectronica: well, urlllib.urlencode() is more or less what we should be using i think
<rockstar> BjornT: okay,  I was just throwing it out there.
<barry> and we may already be using it
<abentley> barry: The unescaped URL is "example.ort?a=b&c=d" and the escaped version is "example.ort?a=b&amp;c=d"
<intellectronica> but if canonical_url would accept query parameters, all we need is for fmt:url to escape the result
<intellectronica> or maybe i'm talking nonsense, because how would you pass the parameters to fmt:url :-/
<barry> abentley: how does a url parser know that your second example doesn't map to {'a':'b', 'amp;c':'d'} ?
<abentley> intellectronica: Right.  TAL can DTRT if we let it.  But if we pass it as a structure, we have to take care of it ourselves.
<abentley> barry: A URL parser should not see the escaped version, because the HTML parser should have already decoded it.
<intellectronica> abentley: so i guess just 1. make canonical_url accept query_parameters. 2. add a wrapper around it that escapes the result
<rockstar> intellectronica: +1
<barry> well, the html parser then.  seems ambiguous syntax to me
<abentley> barry: & always introduces an entity reference.  Where's the ambiguity?
<flacoste> abentley: you are saying that all urls containing & to separate query parameters in HTML should be escaped?
<BjornT> intellectronica: why do we need a wrapper, instead of using escape() on the result?
<barry> well not always.  it doesn't in the a=b&c=d case (even if that's not standard, its widespread common practice)
<intellectronica> BjornT: one less function to call. but i agree, it doesn't matter that much
<abentley> flacoste: Yes.
<flacoste> <a href="?param1=value1&amp;param2=value2">?
<flacoste> the above would be correct?
<BjornT> flacoste: you could simplify that by saying that all urls in html should be escaped
<flacoste> but nobody does that!
<abentley> barry: The spec is unambiguous.  Browsers have to be more careful.
<flacoste> that's non-sense
<flacoste> all of the web is broken
<flacoste> i mean even gmail doesn't escape it's URLs
<abentley> flacoste: Okay, so your vote is to ignore the parts of HTML that we don't like?
<flacoste> yes
<barry> abentley: maybe, but in that case, it's all guesswork
<flacoste> especially if it's a part that nobody cares about
<BjornT> intellectronica: well, using escape means one less function to maintain. it also seems that passing query parameters to canonical_url is quite rare; usually we have specific views we pass the parameters to
<mars> flacoste, yes, same goes for CSS IE hacks - it generates invalid CSS, but pragmatism justifies it
<rockstar> flacoste: that sounds very Microsoft of you.  :)
<abentley> barry: That's right.  Wouldn't it be nice if more sites provided valid HTML so they didn't have to?
<barry> abentley: sure.  but it'll never happen :)
<flacoste> abentley: did you try HTML escaping a URL in an href?
<barry> abentley: can you tell me, are you trying to solve a real problem (i.e. is there an open bug)?
<abentley> flacoste: I've done it in the past.  I didn't do it specifically for this meeting.
<flacoste> abentley: and the browser submitted the right thing?
<barry> abentley: i'm not being facetious.  i'm really curious if we have users who are affected by this
<abentley> barry: It's not related to a bug.  It's something that came up in a review.
<barry> abentley: ah, ok, thx
<abentley> flacoste: Yes.
<barry> abentley: i'm sorry, we've run out of time again.  and apologies for going late today.  perhaps we can take this to the ml?
<BjornT> flacoste: gmail's front page does escape &. at least the links i looked at
<flacoste> really!
<BjornT> flacoste: also, we usually do it in launchpad as well, because tal does it for us
<abentley> flacoste: On this page, the "wish I were an asshole" link is escaped: http://aaronbentley.com/music/news/myspaced-11-09-2006
<flacoste> and amazon too, look at that!
<flacoste> you learn something new everyday!
<abentley> barry: No worries.  I'm not sure it's worth ML discussion, even.
<barry> we should do this by not doing this <wink>.  iow, whatever code we use to inject these urls into html pages should do it for us
<barry> abentley: ok.  let's cut this off then, since we're 10 minutes over
<BjornT> barry: that's how it works today, except that you can turn it off by using structure
<barry> BjornT: so structure should dtrt!
<barry> anyway, we can take this up again next week or go to the ml
<abentley> barry: I think that would involve AI...
<barry> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 09:56.
<intellectronica> thanks barry
<barry> apologies for going over today
<abentley> thanks barry
<barry> abentley: thanks for bringing this up!
<mwhudson> barry: hello
<barry> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 17:32. The chair is barry.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<barry> mwhudson: hi
<barry> jml: hi
<barry> thumper: hi
<barry> jml, thumper ping?
<jml> hi
<barry> [TOPIC] agenda
<MootBot> New Topic:  agenda
<barry>  * Roll call
<barry>  * Action items
<barry>  * Peanut gallery (anything not on the agenda)
<barry>    * JS coding guidelines (mars, intellectronica)
<barry>    * ampersands-in-urls (abentley)
<barry> any word from thumper?
<jml> he said he was going to attend.
<mwhudson> i'm sure he'll read this eventually :)
<barry> ok, we'll just start anyway :)
<thumper> hereish
<barry> [TOPIC] update from ameu
<MootBot> New Topic:  update from ameu
<barry> so a couple of things from the ameu meeting...
<barry> al-maisan will be on load to ubuntu foundations for the next 3 months so won't be doing reviews
<barry> cprov moved to euro timezone and will be mentoring noodles
<mwhudson> ubuntu foundations ?
<barry> i'll need to juggle the ocr schedule a bit
<barry> mwhudson: apparently so!
<mwhudson> which team is that again? cjwatson's?
<jml> well, Robbie's the manager, but yes.
<barry> danilo_ and cprov are off tomorrow, lots of people are off on friday (not us nose-to-the-grindstone americans tho)
<barry> dunno what he'll be working on
<mwhudson> ok
<barry> we talked about javascript coding guidelines for true/false comparisons and decided that our js code should follow python's eibti rules
<barry> i.e. if (foo === undefined) over if (!foo)
<mwhudson> okay
 * thumper hopes if (!foo)
<jml> sure. as long as it works.
<barry> we also had a long discussion about escaping & in url query strings, without any resolution
<barry> thumper: sorry, nope
<mwhudson> are our javascript coding guidelines written down anywhere?
<thumper> :(
<barry> thumper: mars was the lone holdout
<jml> I can't spot the question being responded to
<mars> mwhudson, http://dev.launchpad.net/JavaScriptReviewNotes
<barry> mwhudson: such as they are: https://dev.launchpad.net/JavaScriptReviewNotes
<barry> mars: hi!  this reminds me: can you capture this decision on that page?
<mars> sure
<mwhudson> mars, barry: thanks
<barry> mars: thanks
<barry> that's it from ameu
<barry> [TOPIC] action items
<MootBot> New Topic:  action items
<barry> no action items for asiapac
<barry> [TOPIC] mentoring update
<MootBot> New Topic:  mentoring update
<barry> none for you guys ;)
<barry> that's really all i have, so...
<barry> [TOPIC] peanut gallery
<MootBot> New Topic:  peanut gallery
<barry> do you guys have anything you want to bring up?
<jml> nothing from me. there's not been any code to review :)
<mwhudson> heh yeah
<mwhudson> integration iz us
<barry> you guys are welcome to join me friday america time :)
<barry> well, if there's nothing else...
<jml> still no.
<barry> okay!
<barry> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 17:44.
<barry> thanks guys
<mwhudson> thanks barry
#launchpad-meeting 2009-04-30
<matsubara> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:00. The chair is matsubara.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<matsubara> [TOPIC] Roll Call
<MootBot> New Topic:  Roll Call
<matsubara> Not on the Launchpad Dev team? Welcome! Come "me" with the rest of us!
<herb`> me
<sinzui> me
<rockstar> me
<matsubara> Ursinha: intellectronica, flacoste: hi
<bigjools> me
<Ursinha> hi, me
<intellectronica> me
<matsubara> stub is excused today. he already sent the dba report to the list
<flacoste> me
<matsubara> henninge: hi
<henninge> me
<henninge> hi mars
<henninge> hi matsubara,  I meant
<matsubara> ok, everyone here.
<matsubara> [TOPIC] Agenda
<MootBot> New Topic:  Agenda
<matsubara>  * Actions from last meeting
<matsubara>  * Oops report & Critical Bugs
<matsubara>  * Operations report (mthaddon/herb/spm)
<matsubara>  * DBA report (stub)
<matsubara> [TOPIC] * Actions from last meeting
<MootBot> New Topic:  * Actions from last meeting
<matsubara>     * sinzui to email the list how we should address critical bugs on unmaintained apps (e.g. blueprint)
<matsubara>     * intellectronica to talk to gmb about bug 269538
<matsubara>     * sinzui to take bug 358332
<matsubara>     * sinzui to ask salgado to fix bug 357307
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 269538 in bugzilla-launchpad/bugzilla-3.2 "Compilation error in plugin when authenticating" [Critical,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/269538
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 358332 in launchpad-registry "[API] OOPS when distribution.getSeries() is called with an invalid name or version" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/358332
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 357307 in launchpad-foundations "TypeError when creating new account in lpnet" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/357307
<sinzui> matsubara: done and discussed further at the teamleads meeting
<matsubara> sinzui: good. thanks. what was the outcome?
<intellectronica> matsubara: i talked to gmb and we agreed that the bug is now fix released
<sinzui> matsubara: for the time being, foundations and registry need to do better triage. We want to assign people/teams to these projects in the future to do small development and regular maitenance
<matsubara> all right. the only pending item is #358332 which wasn't fixed for 2.2.4 but it's triaged and set to high. I guess that's going to be fixed for 2.2.5 then?
<sinzui> matsubara: I'm pushing bug 358332 to 2.5 and I will take it as a part of my series work
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 358332 in launchpad-registry "[API] OOPS when distribution.getSeries() is called with an invalid name or version" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/358332
<matsubara> sinzui: perfect
<matsubara> thanks intellectronica
<matsubara> thanks sinzui
<matsubara> let's move on
<matsubara> [TOPIC] * Oops report & Critical Bugs
<MootBot> New Topic:  * Oops report & Critical Bugs
<matsubara> go ahead Ursinha
 * Ursinha waves
<Ursinha> we have three bugs today, two high and one annoying
<Ursinha> the two high are already being handled: bug 351641 (salgado) and bug 369858 (henninge)
<Ursinha> the annoying is bug 357316, that's bug's team - could someone do something/set the importance on this one, intellectronica?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 351641 in shipit "OpenID callback view may not find the account that was just created" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/351641
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 369858 in rosetta "OOPS if new suggestions count change while in +translate page" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/369858
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 357316 in malone "hwdb +submit failing with KeyError OOPS" [Undecided,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/357316
<Ursinha> thanks ubottu
<intellectronica> Ursinha: sure, will check
 * matsubara wants an annoying status
<Ursinha> thanks intellectronica
 * Ursinha wants too
<Ursinha> :)
<rockstar> matsubara: aren't all bugs annoying?
<Ursinha> rockstar, that's also true
<Ursinha> that's all from me from the oopses-after-the-rollout land
<Ursinha> matsubara, want to point anything?
<matsubara> we have one in progress critical bug, which flacoste is investigating
<matsubara> related to the shipit + openid thing
<matsubara> bug 368767
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 368767 in launchpad-foundations "Reactivation of shipit causing "Connection timed out" OOPSes" [Critical,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/368767
<matsubara> but that's all
<matsubara> let's move on
<matsubara> thanks everyone
<flacoste> matsubara: actullay, it seems solved
<herb`> shipit is up and running, btw.
<flacoste> matsubara: i'll confirm and update the status
<Ursinha> matsubara, we didn't have more of those (except some 5xx for a period of one minute after the rollout,m about 10)
<matsubara> flacoste: that's great news.
<matsubara> flacoste: thanks!
<herb`> Ursinha: we might have had a burst of 5xxs just before the meeting started.  I haven't had a chance to investigate yet.  but the service seems to be operating fine at the moment.
<matsubara> as usual, we'll be checking the OOPS reports all day long and bring up any issues we find to the teams
<Ursinha> herb, I'll check right after the meeting, thanks for the heads up
<matsubara> thanks again
<matsubara> [TOPIC] * Operations report (mthaddon/herb/spm)
<MootBot> New Topic:  * Operations report (mthaddon/herb/spm)
<matsubara> there you go herb
<herb> 2009-04-23 - The spike in traffic to shipit after the jaunty rollout caused some service disruptions to launchpad. We're still working to isolate the root cause, but have some good ideas and think we have a solid work around.
<herb> 2009-04-24 - Cherry pick of r8270 and r8273 to lpnet* and the internal xmlrpc server.
<herb> 2009-04-29 - Rolled out 2.2.4 to production. Process went relatively smoothly. Because of a bit of short-sightedness read-only wasn't available for this rollout but will be for the next.
<herb> Keeping it on the radar: bug 156453 and bug 118625 continue to be pain points for the LOSAs
<herb> With Tom on holiday today and tomorrow, if there is going to be a reroll the code *must* be available by 2030 UTC tomorrow (or it gets pushed to Monday). I would like to be able to have at least an hour post-reroll to make sure there aren't any problems before I EOD.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 156453 in loggerhead "production loggerhead branch leaks memory" [Critical,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/156453
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 118625 in launchpad-code "codebrowse sometimes hangs" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/118625
<herb> I already mentioned the 5xx alarm I saw before the meeting. and the fact that shipit is back on as of yesterday around 1900 UTC.
* matsubara changed the topic of #launchpad-meeting to:  Launchpad Meeting Grounds | Channel logs: http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/ | Meeting logs and agenda: https://dev.launchpad.net/MeetingAgenda
<matsubara> herb: most likely that we'll have a re-roll today
<matsubara> I'll confirm with kiko and keep you posted
<herb> matsubara: there is a config change that needs to land
<herb> matsubara: I don't have a checkout at the moment.  Can I piggyback a diff on someone else's commit?
<matsubara> herb: I think it's ok. bac is working on a fix for a timeout. it might be a good candidate
<herb> matsubara: I will sync up with him.
<matsubara> in any case we can sort that out after the meeting. thanks for bringing it up
<rockstar> herb: hopefully, the loggerhead stuff will start dissipating with the new code.
<herb> rockstar: woohoo!
<matsubara> cool
<matsubara> anything else for herb?
<matsubara> [action] matsubara to add to the CRB page herb's config change
<MootBot> ACTION received:  matsubara to add to the CRB page herb's config change
<matsubara> thanks herb
<herb> thanks matsubara
<matsubara> [TOPIC] * DBA report (stub)
<MootBot> New Topic:  * DBA report (stub)
<matsubara> so stub is excused today. he sent the dba report to the list
<matsubara> if you have questions, follow up there.
<matsubara> that's all
<matsubara> anything else before I close the meeting?
<matsubara> all right. Thank you all for attending this week's Launchpad Production Meeting. See the channel topic for the location of the logs.
<matsubara> a good job on this release. went really smooth!
<matsubara> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:21.
<Ursinha> thanks all
<intellectronica> thanks Ursinha, matsubara
<flacoste> matsubara: no kidding!
<flacoste> smooth rollout!
#launchpad-meeting 2010-05-05
<bac> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 09:00. The chair is bac.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<bac> hi who is here for today's reviewer meeting?
<jelmer> me
<mars> me
<sinzui> me
<abentley2> me
<adeuring> me
<henninge> me
<henninge> bac: danilo sends his apologies
<leonardr> me
<henninge> I think ;)
<bac> gary, francis, julian are also away
<mars> Foundations is here.  Record time :)
<BjornT> me (although a bit busy with other things)
<noodles775> me
<bac> deryck too.  is gmb around today?  allenap?
<gmb> me
<gmb> bac, allenap is now a Landscaper for 6 moths.
<adeuring> bac: allenap is on "LP holidays"
<gmb> Er, months.
<bac> ah, right
<mars> gmb, ?  Did I miss that in the staffing mail?
<bac> salgado: ping
<mars> bac, salgado is off to other projects as well
<bac> right, right
<gmb> mars, Possibly; I wasn't paying attention. But he's definitely on rotation to LS.
<bac> [topic] agenda
<MootBot> New Topic:  agenda
<bac> * Roll call
<bac>  * Agenda
<bac>  * Outstanding actions
<bac>  * Mentoring update
<bac>  * New topics
<bac>    * ec2 failures - bac
<bac>    * UDS next week.  No meeting or volunteer substitute chair?
<bac>  * Peanut gallery
<bac> [topic] outstanding actions
<MootBot> New Topic:  outstanding actions
<bac> * bac is a big loser
<EdwinGrubbs> me
<bac> i have two items on my plate that i haven't gotten to.  i *promise* to do them tomorrow so i can go to UDS with a clear conscience
<intellectronica> me
<bac> [topic] rockstar to start ML discussion about the lack of UI reviews
<MootBot> New Topic:  rockstar to start ML discussion about the lack of UI reviews
<bac> rockstar attends the AMEU meeting so he's not here now.  i don't think he did this, though.
<bac> he brought it up in the meeting last week and had good statistics on the number of UI reviews that have been performed lately and it was very low.
<bac> i'll remind him to take it to the list and we can chat there
<noodles775> Yeah, I haven't seen any in a few weeks now (and few before)
<intellectronica> bac: we've discussed this and we think the stats are wrong
<bac> intellectronica: really?  that's good to hear.
<mars> intellectronica, bac, true, but that discussion can probably be saved for the list
<bac> sinzui: what is your impression?  have you been doing many?
<intellectronica> because of ec2 land people don't commit with the quite tag
<sinzui> I was doing many in week 1 and 2
<sinzui> 1 last week
<gmb> bac, intellectronica and sinzui did 3 or for for me last cycle, for sure.
<bac> intellectronica: why is that?  i thought ec2 land did a good job of getting the ui tag?
 * intellectronica shuts up
<gmb> s/last/this
<sinzui> I think this may be indicative that UI should land in weeks 0, 1, and 2
<gmb> bac, Only if you tag the review with 'ui' in the mp.
<gmb> Otherwise I think it just puts all the names in the [r=] block.
<bac> gmb: ah, so we need to ensure the ui reviewers are tagging correctly or the MP author does it right.
<gmb> Yes
<bac> that's good information to pass on.
<bac> so we have a failure in tools/procedure not lack of reviewing.  hurrah.
<bac> moving on
<bac> [topic] * ec2 failures - bac
<MootBot> New Topic:  * ec2 failures - bac
<bac> mars and i chatted this morning and we wanted to hear from people how often they are seeing ec2 jobs just disappear and the effect it is having.
<bac> personally i see it a lot and it is very disruptive
<jelmer> bac: I'm often seeing branches disappear, and it's quite annoying.
<bac> for important branches i've been running them locally
<mars> So far I know salgado and matsubara have both experienced a few test suite hangs in the past few days
<bac> also, my ec2 bill last month was 4 times normal
<gmb> bac, I've seen it happen twice this week already, it's getting annoyingly common.
<gmb> I don't see many branches hanging; they just vanish.
<bac> so how can we attack this problem to figure out what is going on?
<mars> gmb, the instance dies?
<jelmer> I haven't seen any hanging branches either (or do they get killed automatically?)
<mars> jelmer, ^ ?
<salgado> the ec2 instance shuts itself down after 8h
<gmb> salgado, Ah, so they might well be hangs then.
<noodles775> I've killed one hanging ec2 land after the log had not been updated for 2hrs.
<mars> salgado, thanks, that is good to know
<salgado> if it's left hung for long enough, it will shut down and you won't get any notifications
<noodles775> (last week)
<jelmer> mars: yeah, it just disappears silently
<bac> did we have this problem before jml's subunit changes?
<mars> jelmer, think it is inside our outside that 8 hour window?
<jelmer> mars: outside probably
<mars> ok
<salgado> bac, I think we had it before.  do you know when the subunit changes landed?
<mars> bac, the changes and fixes landed the 14th of April, your fix landed on the 21st
<jelmer> I've definitely seen it before his changes as well.
<bac> jelmer: ok, thanks.
<mars> jelmer, salgado, that is also good to know.  Thanks.
<mars> For everyone's benefit, I am tracking progress on this with Bug 570380
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 570380 in launchpad-foundations "ec2test sometimes hangs on the first windmill test" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/570380
<bac> thanks mars
<mars> I have some solutions being worked on for this, I will keep everyone updated as things progress
<bac> i guess i'd encourage everyone to not just suffer in silence but (kindly) let mars know when it happens and try to gather some data
<bac> [topic] * UDS next week.  No meeting or volunteer substitute chair?
<MootBot> New Topic:  * UDS next week.  No meeting or volunteer substitute chair?
<bac> i'm at UDS next week and a few others as well.
<bac> shall we just skip the meeting?
<bac> or would someone like to volunteer to lead it?
<bac> i think the group silence is a vote to skip.
<bac> [action] bac cancels next week's reviewers meeting
<MootBot> ACTION received:  bac cancels next week's reviewers meeting
<bac> [topic] mentoring update
<MootBot> New Topic:  mentoring update
<bac> noodles775, jelmer: everything still going well?
<noodles775> Yep... although more non-soyuz reviews for jelmer would still be great :)
<jelmer> I reviewed only two branches last week, mostly because I was distracted by other things. It's all going well otherwise though imo.
<jelmer> and yeah, more non-soyuz branches please :-)
<bac> [topic] peanut gallery
<MootBot> New Topic:  peanut gallery
<maxb> I have a peanut item: https://dev.launchpad.net/ReviewingCodeImports claims that community members can be members of ~vcs-imports, however, when it was brought up on the mailing list (subj: Code Import Reviews), the thread fizzled out with me producing a list of places where ~vcs-imports perhaps granted too-wide permissions. Someone should decide whether community members really _can_ be in ~vcs-imports or not, and either change the wi
<maxb> ki page or work out how to make it happen.
<bac> hi maxb
<maxb> I believe this might dovetail with the promised community reviewers email :-)
<bac> thanks for bringing that up max.
<bac> maxb: touche
<wgrant> Promised, legendary, or mythical?
<wgrant> It seems to be in the realms of legend at the moment :P
<bac> maxb: i'll bring it up in the ameu meeting this afternoon
<maxb> thanks
<sinzui> Looks like poolie and members of the Launchpad-code team can add you gentlemen
<bac> any other topics?
<mars> wgrant, it's not mythical, I've seen it!  I swear!
<bac> it's right there in my drafts folder, wgrant.  really it is.
<wgrant> Oh!
<bac> going once
<bac> twice
<bac> thanks for coming everyone.
<bac> * UDS next week.  No meeting or volunteer substitute chair?
<bac> er,
<mars> thanks bac
<bac> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 09:22.
<abentley> thank, bac
<bac> thumper, rockstar: ping
<thumper> hi
<rockstar> bac, we're still on the standup...
<bac> ok
<bac> how long until  you're done?
<rockstar> bac, depends on chatty thumper
<thumper> :-|
<thumper> done now
<bac> ok, then?  do i hear a chorus of 'me'?
<rockstar> me
 * rockstar choruses
<bac> so in the ameu meeting we determined i was slack for not getting to my tasks
<rockstar> I am also slack for not sending an email in my drafts folder about UI reviews.
<thumper> what tasks?
<bac> we also talked about rockstar's concerns about the UI reviews
<rockstar> bac, yay.
<bac> thumper: the same stuff that i've been ignoring:  community review policy and what constitutes testable documentation
<thumper> :)
<rockstar> bac, I has an announcement...
<bac> rockstar: so the concensus is it isn't as bad as your data showed.  just that UI reviewers are marking the MP properly so ec2 land doesn't construct the correct PQM message
<rockstar> bac, ah, that's what I was being told.
<bac> we also talked some about the problem with ec2 losing branches with no email
<rockstar> However, as a ui reviewer, I still don't feel as overwhelmed as I should be...
<bac> it is really hurting us in lost time.
<thumper> bac: that'll be the hang followed by the belt and braces shutdown
<bac> thumper: what do you mean?
<thumper> bac: perhaps the shutdown code should also email just before
<rockstar> thumper, you mean "suspenders" ?
<rockstar> :)
<thumper> when the ec2 instances start up
<thumper> we have some code that says
<thumper> shutdown in 8 hours
<thumper> or 6
<thumper> whatever
<thumper> a test hangs
<thumper> machine gets shut down
<thumper> no email
<rockstar> thumper, although this doesn't always happen for me.
<rockstar> Sometimes the machine is still running 10 hours later.
<bac> thumper: hmm, i didn't know that.  i'll suggest it to mars
<thumper> so perhaps before shutdown it should send suicide email
<bac> thumper: indeed
<rockstar> The subject should be "Goodbye cruel world"
<bac> we also had this item from maxb:
<bac> I have a peanut item: https://dev.launchpad.net/ReviewingCodeImports claims that community members can be members of ~vcs-imports, however, when it was brought up on the mailing list (subj: Code Import Reviews), the thread fizzled out with me producing a list of places where ~vcs-imports perhaps granted too-wide permissions. Someone should decide whether community members really _can_ be in ~vcs-imports or not, and either change the wi
<bac> ki page or work out how to make it happen.
<thumper> a bug should be filed about permissions that they shouldn't have
<thumper> and we'll fix it
<thumper> when the bugs are fixed
<thumper> we could open it up again
<bac> so 1) file bug on extra permissions, 2) fix bug, 3) open vcs-imports to community peeps?
<thumper> aye
<bac> excellent
<bac> i'll find max's email and either file the bug or ask him to do it.
<bac> [action] bac to see that a bug is filed about vcs-import permissions being to generous
<thumper> cool
<bac> also, i'm going to be at UDS next week so i'm cancelling this meeting.
<bac> either of you going?
<thumper> ack
<thumper> nope
<mars> thumper, good idea about the shutdown mail, I've noted it.
<rockstar> nope
<bac> i've heard to expect cold, rain, and extreme boringness of venue
<rockstar> bac, I have an announcement.
<bac> yes rockstar
 * thumper has something to
<rockstar> bac, noodles sent me an email today telling me to go ahead and announce that I'm a graduated UI reviewer.
<bac> oh congratulations!
<bac> so who are the full-fledged reviewers?  just you and noodles?
<thumper> what about sinzui?
<bac> i thought sinzui was still a UI-mentat
<thumper> I've heard that noodles thinks he is good enough but sinzui is resisting
<sinzui> I am
<thumper> sinzui: stop resisting
<thumper> resistance is futile
<bac> uh oh, we woke him
<rockstar> sinzui is gradiated.
 * thumper sooths sinzui back to sleep
<bac> congrats sinzui too
<bac> thumper what was your item?
<thumper> ok
<sinzui> I am was mentoring intellectronica, but then he abandoned me.
<thumper> more of a reminder for people to read my emails to launchpad-dev
<thumper> there are two new testing things:
<thumper> a better base breadcrumb test case, which uses test_traverse
<bac> thumper: i read those.  i meant to bring them up today in ameu but forgot.
<thumper> and self.oopses in the base TestCase class
<thumper> I wrote up details for launchpad-dev
<thumper> so details are there
<sinzui> No one wants to be a UI reviewer. They do not like the cool sun glasses and hair cuts you get when you join the club
<bac> and i'll certainly forget again in two weeks time
<bac> thanks for those nice new tools thumper
<thumper> np
<rockstar> sinzui, I like my haircut!  :)
<thumper> rockstar: isn't yours more like a lack of haircut?
<thumper> :)
<bac> which haircut are you sporting now paul?
<rockstar> thumper, point
<rockstar> bac, the unkempt "I haven't showered in 12 days" haircut.
<bac> uh, nice
<rockstar> It's called "hat"
<bac> well i see we have devolved
<bac> thanks for chatting.  see  you again in two weeks
<sinzui> I think bathing is a quality of successful engineers
<thumper> thansk back
<thumper> thanks bac
 * mars hands sinzui the "Non-sequitur of the Week" award
<mars> :)
<maxb> bac: Hello, the email of mine you referred to finding during the reviewers meeting is https://lists.launchpad.net/launchpad-dev/msg03197.html
<bac> thanks maxb!
<bac> maxb:  i filed bug 576090
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 576090 in launchpad-code "~vcs-imports team need privileges review" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/576090
#launchpad-meeting 2010-05-06
<matsubara> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 11:02. The chair is matsubara.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<matsubara> Welcome to this week's Launchpad Production Meeting. For the next 45 minutes or so, we'll be coordinating the resolution of specific Launchpad bugs and issues.
<matsubara> [TOPIC] Roll Call
<MootBot> New Topic:  Roll Call
<sinzui> me
<matsubara> Not on the Launchpad Dev team? Welcome! Come "me" with the rest of us!
<Ursinha-sprint> me
<adeuring> me
<adeuring> (replacing allenap today)
<matsubara> Chex, hi
<Chex> me
<matsubara> rockstar, hi
 * rockstar stumbles into the meeting
<matsubara> gary won't be around today, I'll be standing in for foundations
<Ursinha-sprint> henninge, :)
<matsubara> hi henninge
<henninge> Hi Ursinha-sprint ;)
<henninge> Hi matsubara ;)
<matsubara> hmm bigjools is not around
<henninge> matsubara: at somehands
<matsubara> noodles775, can you stand in for soyuz?
<sinzui> matsubara, he not avialable today
<matsubara> all right. we can move on and if something comes up specific to soyuz, I'll contact them
<matsubara> [TOPIC] Agenda
<MootBot> New Topic:  Agenda
<matsubara>  * Actions from last meeting
<matsubara>  * Oops report & Critical Bugs & Broken scripts
<matsubara>  * Operations report (mthaddon/Chex/spm/mbarnett)
<matsubara>  * DBA report (stub)
<matsubara>  * QA stats of the week
<matsubara>  * Proposed items
<matsubara> [TOPIC] * Actions from last meeting
<MootBot> New Topic:  * Actions from last meeting
<matsubara>  * matsubara to talk with gary_poster about  a CP for bug 553361
<matsubara>     * Done, fixed. I'll will request a CP.
<matsubara>  * allenap to bump bug 230106 to High and explain why
<matsubara>     * Done.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 553361 in launchpad-foundations "OOPS when accessing launchpad with no referrer, eg. via wget" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/553361
<matsubara>  * matsubara to discuss bug 54005 with gary_poster
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 230106 in malone "emails interface oops reports need better error messages" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/230106
<matsubara>     * Done. I'll file an RT for this one.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 54005 in launchpad-foundations "bugs.launchpad.ubuntu.com email ending up in Launchpad mailbox" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/54005
<matsubara>  * Ursinha to triage lp-qa-tools bugs
<matsubara> for 553361, I'll land it today and request the CP
<matsubara> I filed rt #39164 for bug 54005
<matsubara> Ursinha-sprint, did you have time to triage lp-qa-tools bugs?
<Ursinha-sprint> matsubara, I haven't done mine
<matsubara> [action] * Ursinha to triage lp-qa-tools bugs
<MootBot> ACTION received:  * Ursinha to triage lp-qa-tools bugs
<matsubara> let's move on
<matsubara> [TOPIC] * Oops report & Critical Bugs & Broken scripts
<MootBot> New Topic:  * Oops report & Critical Bugs & Broken scripts
<matsubara> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/launchpad-registry/+bug/575976 -- sinzui already triaged. thanks!
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 575976 in launchpad-registry "Person.__repr__ causes an oops masking the real error because displayname is unicode" [Low,Triaged]
<matsubara> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/launchpad-code/+bug/576015 -- also already triaged by Tim. rockstar send my thanks to him, please :-)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 576015 in launchpad-code "+addbranch oops with a TypeError" [High,Triaged]
<matsubara> and there's this weird keyerror: https://lp-oops.canonical.com/oops/?oopsid=OOPS-1585G1243
<ubottu> https://lp-oops.canonical.com/oops.py/?oopsid=1585G1243
<sinzui> matsubara, I can fix that in before our next meeting
<matsubara> which I'll bring up to the foundations team and file a bug
<matsubara> [action] matsubara to talk to foundations about OOPS-1585G1243
<ubottu> https://lp-oops.canonical.com/oops.py/?oopsid=1585G1243
<MootBot> ACTION received:  matsubara to talk to foundations about OOPS-1585G1243
<ubottu> https://lp-oops.canonical.com/oops.py/?oopsid=1585G1243
<matsubara> that's great to hear sinzui. thanks!
<matsubara> we have some broken scripts: ppa-generate-keys which noodles775 is taking care of
<matsubara> calculate_bug_heat is failing. adeuring can you follow up the script failure email sent to the list please?
<henninge> Also, template generation from branches is not working yet.
<adeuring> matsubara: sure
<matsubara> [action] adeuring to follow up on calculate_bug_heat script failure
<MootBot> ACTION received:  adeuring to follow up on calculate_bug_heat script failure
<matsubara> we have 4 critical bugs, 2 in progress.
<matsubara> one from soyuz and another one from foundations
<matsubara> I'll chase the foundations one
<matsubara> [action] matsubara to chase landing for bug 574493
<MootBot> ACTION received:  matsubara to chase landing for bug 574493
<matsubara> [action] matsubara to chase landing for bug 575426
<MootBot> ACTION received:  matsubara to chase landing for bug 575426
<ubottu> Error: Could not parse data returned by Launchpad: list index out of range (https://launchpad.net/bugs/574493)
<ubottu> Error: Could not parse data returned by Launchpad: list index out of range (https://launchpad.net/bugs/574493)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 575426 in soyuz "SHA1-based copy checking breaks when there are expired sources in the target" [Critical,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/575426
<matsubara> I think that's it for this section
<matsubara> let's move on
<matsubara> [TOPIC] * Operations report (mthaddon/Chex/spm/mbarnett)
<MootBot> New Topic:  * Operations report (mthaddon/Chex/spm/mbarnett)
<Chex> hello everyone, here is this weeks report
<matsubara> Chex, hi
<matsubara> oops, go ahead
<Chex> - LP rollout 10.04 occured on Tuesday; 04-May. Some issues were:
<Chex>         : cesium: problems with buildmanager
<Chex>         : guava: crash/lockup problems with codebrowse/loggerhead that were fixed by mwhudson
<Chex>         : forster: issues with mailman, that an extensive cowboy fix was needed to get working.
<Chex> - LP re-roll/CP 9336 on Wed 05-May: to address issues with codebrowse, mailman, and builddmanager.
<Chex>         : The mailman, and builddmanager changes needed to be rolled back, for continued fixes.
<Chex>         : codebrowse issues seemed to be address, is stable now after the mwhudson fix
<Chex> wow, lots of typos, sorry for my poor grammar there. :/
<Chex> anyone who can read that have any comments/questions??
<matsubara> Chex, given that the mailman and builddmanager had to be rolled back, are we expecting another re-roll try?
<sinzui> Chex, you can always blame me as the cause of the poor grammar
<matsubara> Chex, hmm actually, I think Francis said they will be CP later on using the regular CP process
<matsubara> Chex, so, nm :-)
<Chex> matsubara: yes I just saw his email to that effect, we have opened PQM now
<matsubara> cool. thanks Chex
<Chex> matsubara: welcome, and thanks
<matsubara> [TOPIC] * DBA report (stub)
<MootBot> New Topic:  * DBA report (stub)
<matsubara> I'll ask stub for the DBA report
<Chex> sinzui: ;) I can write poorly on my own..
<matsubara> [action] matsubara to ask for the DBA report
<MootBot> ACTION received:  matsubara to ask for the DBA report
<matsubara> [TOPIC] * QA stats of the week
<MootBot> New Topic:  * QA stats of the week
<matsubara> launchpad-buildd: 12
<matsubara> malone: 10
<matsubara> lp-dev-utils: 9
<matsubara> launchpadlib: 9
<matsubara> launchpad-dev-moin-theme: 6
<matsubara> launchpad-foundations: 6
<matsubara> soyuz: 4
<matsubara> lp-qa-tools: 3
<matsubara> launchpad-help-moin-theme: 3
<matsubara> lpbuildbot: 2
<matsubara> trac-launchpad-migrator: 2
<matsubara> launchpad-news-wordpress-theme: 2
<matsubara> launchpad-cscvs: 2
<matsubara> launchpad: 1
<matsubara> launchpad-web: 1
<matsubara> oops-tools: 1
<matsubara> launchpad-loggerhead: 1
<matsubara> launchpad-documentation: 1
<Ursinha-sprint> lp-qa-tools is my fault
<matsubara> tickcount: 1
<matsubara> those are the projects with untriaged bugs
<matsubara> Code: 1
<matsubara> Foundations: 1
<matsubara> Registry: 0
<matsubara> Bugs: 7 needstesting, 1 bad
<matsubara> Translations: 2
<matsubara> Soyuz: 2
<matsubara> Strategy: 0
<matsubara> and those are the untested items
<Ursinha-sprint> left from 10.04
<matsubara> which means some QA wasn't done in time for the release
<matsubara> or the tags weren't updated
<matsubara> in any case, no cookies for you guys!
<matsubara> well, only for sinzui
<matsubara> and jono
<matsubara> well, jml
<sinzui> answers and blueprints are 0 too
<Ursinha-sprint> three cookies for sinzui
<matsubara> hehehe
<Ursinha-sprint> another thing to note is the number of orphaned commits this cycle
<Ursinha-sprint> we had 86 OC in 226 commits, I wonder if all of them are really unQAable
<Ursinha-sprint> these in devel branch: https://wiki.canonical.com/Launchpad/QATeam/OrphanedCommits/10.04-devel
<Ursinha-sprint> 28 out of 150 in db-devel branch: https://wiki.canonical.com/Launchpad/QATeam/OrphanedCommits/10.04-db-devel
<Ursinha-sprint> I'd like to ask all QA contacts to take these lists to your teams to check if we left untested items behind because they were orphaned commits
<matsubara> [action] all QA contacts to take these lists to your teams to check if we left untested items behind because they were orphaned commits
<MootBot> ACTION received:  all QA contacts to take these lists to your teams to check if we left untested items behind because they were orphaned commits
<Ursinha-sprint> I wonder if anyone is reading that :)
<Ursinha-sprint> rockstar, sinzui, adeuring, henninge, noodles775, hi :)
<rockstar> Ursinha-sprint, hi
<adeuring> Ursinha-sprint: yes, I'm making notes ;)
<Ursinha-sprint> adeuring, thanks :)
<henninge> matsubara: I read it now.
<henninge> Ursinha-sprint: ^
<Ursinha-sprint> henninge, thanks :)
<henninge> matsubara: I only see one untested bug left, I think the other was retargeted.
<henninge> matsubara: and this one is critical.
<Ursinha-sprint> henninge, is the bug left really testable/landed this cycle?
<henninge> Ursinha-sprint: it was in the re-roll (the config change) but the server were it takes effect has been reverted ... ;)
<henninge> :(
<Ursinha-sprint> henninge, oh :/
<sinzui> Ursinha-sprint, I am sorry that I did not check that before. Those items were checked as a part of other bugs, or were changes to the test infrastructure
<henninge> bug 575065
<Ursinha-sprint> sinzui, I see
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 575065 in rosetta "Enable automatic generation of templates" [Critical,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/575065
<Ursinha-sprint> sinzui, thanks for the info
<Ursinha-sprint> rockstar, could you take that to your team, please?
<rockstar> Ursinha-sprint, yes.
<Ursinha-sprint> rockstar, thanks a lot
<sinzui> I wil ask that my team as developers or reviewer to insist on bug numbers to track why the change was made
<Ursinha-sprint> sinzui, thanks! that'd be really great
<sinzui> ec2 land looks to the main reason we are missing bug numbers
<Ursinha-sprint> sinzui, I thought ec2land added automatically the bug number to the commit message
<Ursinha-sprint> if the bug is linked, of course..
<Ursinha-sprint> linked to the mp, that is
<matsubara> sinzui, is it broken? why is it the main reason?
<sinzui> I think that is correct. I see a lot of contributor branches that do not link bugs
<sinzui> I am just noting that most of the problem branches were landed using ec2 land
<Ursinha-sprint> sinzui, hm, interesting
<matsubara> please, QA contacts, as developers and reviewers, remind your teammates that --fixes=lp:NNNN can be used to help out there.
<matsubara> when a commit is made using --fixes, LP will do the right thing automagically and avoid the extra work
<matsubara> anyway, I think that's it
<matsubara> [TOPIC] * Proposed items
<MootBot> New Topic:  * Proposed items
<matsubara> there's no proposed items
<matsubara> anything else before I close?
<matsubara> Thank you all for attending this week's Launchpad Production Meeting. See https://dev.launchpad.net/MeetingAgenda  for the logs.
<matsubara> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:35.
<Ursinha-sprint> thanks everyone!
