#ubuntu-doc 2005-06-20
<Burgundavia> salut mpt
<jalyst> has anyone here worked out how to get FreeNX server running on hoary?
<carlos> hi
<carlos> which license is used for the official Ubuntu documentation?
<Burgundavia> carlos, GFDL and CC-by-sa 2.0
<carlos> Burgundavia, thanks, froud gave me the link already: http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocteamLicense
<mdke> hi all
<Burgundavia> salut
<mdke> hi Burgundavia 
<mdke> hows it going?
<Burgundavia> not bad
<Burgundavia> sorting through 210 emails
<Burgundavia> and gmail is being slow
<mdke> *grins*
<mdke> nothing wrong with pop
<jjesse> hello mdke
<mdke> hi jjesse 
<jjesse> hiya squisshy
<Burgundavia> ah crap
<Burgundavia> I am double booked tues night
<Burgundavia> and I need to go to both of them
<mdke> two dates huh
<Burgundavia> nope
<Burgundavia> local LUG meeting and gaming
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> better go to a bit of each ;)
<Burgundavia> not possible
<Burgundavia> as they both start at 7 and run til midnight
<Burgundavia> I haven't been to either in months
<Burgundavia> bah
<mdke> clone yourself?
<Burgundavia> I wish
<mdke> i'm trying here
<Burgundavia> I need my key signed as well
<Burgundavia> I was planning to do that
<mdke> yeah i remember
<mdke> i need mine signed too
<mdke> only henrik has signed it, but his isn't signed either :/
<mdke> bleh
<Burgundavia> well that really sucks
<Burgundavia> normally they don't clash
<mdke> lug 7-9.30, gaming 9.30-12
<Burgundavia> right
<Burgundavia> that might not work
<jjesse> its funny, this group can go hours w/o a single converstation or anything mentioend and then there is a lot that comes up within a short amount of time
<Burgundavia> and that usually has nothing to do with docs
<froud> so how's everyone?
<mdke> hi sean
<froud> u a lawyer yet? :-)
<mdke> not quite yet ;)
<mdke> how are you?
<froud> good
<froud> you?
<mdke> muchos bien
<mdke> will you make it to the meeting thurs?
<froud> no, I think you guys need to hack it out without me. It is best I am not there, I think it will be more representative of what everyone wants to do. I also did say I am taking a break from it.
<mdke> ok fair enough
<mdke> how is the break working out?
<mdke> you know you're welcome here just for chatting purposes, honest, you don't have to do any work :D
<froud> yeah I am here for the people, not the problems :-) and the break is good
<mdke> cool
<jjesse> hiya froud
<froud> I have no itch with the people
<jjesse> didn't see you login :)
<froud> jjesse: howzit
<jjesse> foud things are good
<froud> Hmmm I am on freenode all the time
<froud> people wonder if I am monitoring. The answer is yes
<mdke> froud, no you're not!
<mdke> i've looked for you
<froud> I am just not on the list
<mdke> /whois froud no such nick
<froud> mdke: :-) how do you know
<mdke> i've looked for ya
<mdke> <3
<froud> Hmm you should use Konversation
<froud> Watched nicks function, very useful
<mdke> whats your new nick?
<froud> one of the many features only from kde
<froud> froud
<froud> or venda
<froud> same old
<froud> saw you went away this weekend
<froud> how was it?
<mdke> me?
<mdke> i visited my parents
* froud tips mdke. watch #kubuntu and #kubuntu-devel
<mdke> never!
<froud> nice moms cooking
<mdke> dads in this case
<froud> well that is why you cant find me
<froud> not looking in the right places
<mdke> froud, /whois works on the whole network
<froud> Hmm yeah I am on and off
<froud> here in morning and evening now
<jjesse> i can find froud in a /whois
<froud> the benefit of taking a break
<mdke> you can now jjesse 
<mdke> froud, getting more work done huh?
<froud> sure
<froud> jjesse: hows the call center dude
<mdke> cool
<froud> jjesse: have you tried Asterisk
<froud> where is jerome
<jjesse> the call center is great
<jjesse> haven't tried asterisk yet
<jjesse> trying to get my hands around one project at a time :)
<froud> Hmm I want to install an Asterisk this weekend, for myself
<froud> well if the FXO cards arrive
<mdke> kassetra, have you got a status update for the backports review?
<froud> mdke: hows this for amazing. Last night on #Kubuntu I helped 73-year old man upgrade from warty to hoary and install Kubuntu-desktop
<froud> wow, what an education
<froud> talk about step by step, now there is a user profile I never imagined
<mdke> that is cool
<mdke> next step, install ubuntu-desktop
<froud> he did not even know that he can do an upgrade online
<froud> I wonder how many users out there dont know
<mdke> not many i hope!
<froud> and are still on warty
<mdke> anyway that is very cool
<froud> got me thinking
<froud> interesting to see what such a person does and does not know
<mdke> Be RiGhT bAcK
<froud> if you can explain ubuntu for such a person, then I reckon you have covered everyone
<jjesse> wow that's impressive
<froud> shalom sivang 
<froud> jjesse: what
<jjesse> helping a 72 year old upgrad
<jjesse> i used to work to internet tech support and always had to help older people were given internet access as gifts
<froud> yeah I did not know that ppl that age would use Linux
<froud> I expect such people to be using Windows
<froud> I asked him why he switched to Linux. He answered he was bored with Windows.
<froud> intersting reason to move
<froud> here we are trying to find all the business and technical reasons why a user should move when we could just say, "Are you bored with Windows? Try Linux, try Ubuntu."
<froud> jjesse: have you tried to install Ubuntu as X-Server using XDMCP on the clients?
<froud> jjesse: I am looking for some guidelines on what resources to allocate per X-Terminal Session
<jjesse> froud no i have not
<froud> have you seen any docs on this subject?
#ubuntu-doc 2005-06-21
<mako> so. uh.. where did the faqs go
<mdke> mako, the faqs?
<mako> yeah. the ones that used to be in the website
<mdke> they were transferred to the wiki
<mdke> the howtos right?
<mako> no, the FAQs
<mako> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/support/documentation/faq
<mdke> mako, how long has it been like that?
<mako> i just noticed it
<mako> maybe 2-3 days
<mdke> hmm
<mako> probably 2 max
<mdke> no idea
<mako> that's quite bad
<mdke> mako, henrik will know
<mdke> none of us have write access to the website, but he will know I'm sure
<mako> i just looked at webmaster and info mail and the weekend worth of errors for the shipit FAQ alone is pretty massive
<mdke> oh dear
<mako> so, i'm the first to notice
<mdke> guess so
<mdke> haven't seen anything about it on our list
<mako> neither have i
<mdke> mako, well if there is anything we can do to help, let us know :)
<jsgotangco> shalom
<jsgotangco> judax: nice patches
<jsgotangco> (sorry im just applying them now)
<jsgotangco> (i had to clean up the document as well)
<jsgotangco> judax: also the screenshots are great, but if I include them it'll make the book inconsistent
<jsgotangco> judax: can you use the default theme instead
<jsgotangco> for now i'll remove all references to the screenshots, hope you understand
<jsgotangco> (i really need a separate box to do this grrr)
<jsgotangco> sivang, hey
<sivang> jsgotangco: hey
<jsgotangco> hows it going
<Seveas> Hi guys, I've been looking at the wiki and it's quite messy at some spots. I've already done heaps of reparenting to clean that up a bit. Is it ok to merge howto's delete superseded ones and restructure some things?
<jsgotangco> feel free to do it but make sure its ok with the original author or won't mess up the overall wiki structure
<jsgotangco> ok later guys
<Seveas> tweedledee
<Seveas> and the wiki restructuring continues :)
<mdke> hi Seveas 
<mdke> best not to bother
<mdke> the parenting system does not have long to live
<mdke> tomorrow is the wiki transfer
<mdke> damn connection
<mdke> hi Seveas 
<mdke> you there?
<mdke> good idea with ObsoletePages
<Seveas> hi
<Seveas> yeah i know
<Seveas> am fixing up the UserDocumentation section now
<Seveas> Lots of obsolete stuff there
<Seveas> mdke, what will replace the parenting system?
<mdke> nothing
<Seveas> hmm
<Seveas> so all pages will become singletons and have to be re-linked?
<mdke> well many pages are linked already
<Seveas> or will all parents initially have links to their children?
<mdke> the links to children will be copied into talkpages of the main page
<mdke> so that they can be inserted if necessary
<Seveas> ok
<Seveas> then i will continue fixing up parenting
<mdke> ok
<Seveas> and as of tomorrow remove/edit these talkpage links :)
<mdke> cool thanks for your help
<Seveas> no prob
<Seveas> been meaning to to this a long time already
<mdke> by the way, before deleting pages, make sure they don't have any backlinks
<Seveas> i have 3 draft wikipages in my head too that will be awesome :)
<mdke> nice
<Seveas> What time does the transition start?
<mdke> 10am
<mdke> BST
<Seveas> BST?
<Seveas> Brazil?
<mdke> so thats 9 UTC
<Seveas> ah ok
<mdke> *grins*
<mdke> BST = british summer time
<Seveas> ah :)
* Seveas is in UTC+2
<Seveas> Amsterdam
<mdke> cool
<Seveas> mdke, will th new wiki be wiki.u.c or www.u.o/wiki?
<mdke> certainly the former, and probably the latter i guess
<Seveas> the funny thing is: FrontPage is now a singleton :)
<mdke> thats the way it should be
<Seveas> indeed
<Seveas> but it never was
<Seveas> since people kept ading subtopics there
<mdke> well we keep moving em away
<mdke> but on the new wiki that won't happen
<mdke> because you'll have to make a link in order to create a page
<Seveas> :)
<Seveas> that's the way it should be
<Seveas> over the next days i'll keep restructuting things
<Seveas> restructuring*
<mdke> thats nice of you
<Seveas> does the new wiki also have a nice table of contents mechanism?
<mdke> that requires a plugin, but probably yes
<mdke> anchor links should be possible
<mdke> Seveas, or were you talking about a different sort of table of contents?
<Seveas> well, something like www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/FrontPage/contents
<Seveas> an easy way to see all pages in a parent-child hierarchy
<mdke> a
<mdke> h
<mdke> no the new wiki won't have that
<mdke> given that the parent-child hierarchy won't exist
<Seveas> hmm, figures
<Seveas> but there will be an AllPages link?
<mdke> yes
<mdke> check out http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com
<Seveas> i know that one :)
<mdke> TitleIndex for example
<mdke> WordIndex too
<Seveas> nice
<Seveas> that'll help bringing the new wiki in shape
<mdke> and the others at SiteNavigation
<mdke> Seveas, maybe you can also help with a project that we will try to develop soon
<mdke> basically we want to flag up the wiki pages that are in a decent enough state for documentation
<Seveas> hmm, sounds like a plan
<Seveas> by the way the documentation on u.org is completely non-existent
<mdke> yes
<Seveas> mdke, as an extension to moinmoin oslt?
<mdke> anyway, we will have a page to suggest which pages are nearly ready, and then the documentation team will make locked copies of them, and then convert them to docbook format to be published
<mdke> Seveas, what is that?
<SquishyWaffle> Does anyone know the best way to put a topic on the agenda for the next CC meeting?
<Seveas> i mean this flagging system
<Seveas> will that be an extension to the wiki?
<mdke> SquishyWaffle, yeah, add it to the agenda :p
<mdke> Seveas, no
<Seveas> SquishyWaffle, add it to the agenda page :)
<SquishyWaffle> You don't have to ask permission to do so first?
<Seveas> mdke, so what are the plans than?
<mdke> SquishyWaffle, nope
<mdke> Seveas, what I said
<Seveas> yeah ok, but how are you planning to implement it?
<mdke> we'll have a locked section in which to copy pages which are ready/nearly ready
<Seveas> ah ok
<mdke> then we'll convert them to docbook and put them in our archive
<Seveas> nice
<Seveas> do you have a good wiki2docbook utility already?
<mdke> Seveas, so if you come across any nice documentation in your travels, make a mental note
<Seveas> hehe, ok
<mdke> Seveas, mvirkkil is working on one, otherwise we will do it by hand
<Seveas> i've stopped reparenting now
<Seveas> todo: the documentation
<Seveas> and all with releases as parent
<Seveas> but i think it's better to do that on the new wiki
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> thanks for your work
<Seveas> but all userpages now have UserPages as parent and no children
<Seveas> an more stupidities like that are solved :)
<SquishyWaffle> Does anyone see my reasoning in this post or am I completely off-based?: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=40056
<mdke> i agree 100%
<mdke> i feel quite strongly about that stuff so I'm gonna post too
* Seveas never uses forums
<Seveas> i quite hate them :)
<SquishyWaffle> Well kassetra (who is now in this room) has basically told me to keep my mouth shut about it because they're not going to change it. I still disagree quite strongly and am thinking of putting it up for discussion in the next CC meeting.
<SquishyWaffle> Some very well ran support forums use a positive rep system and I think used positively that we might see some benefit from a system such as this.
<SquishyWaffle> IE: I help a new Linux user and they give me positive rep
<mdke> i hate heirarchy
<mdke> its dangerous and is contrary to the Ubuntu code of conduct in my opinion
<mdke> people should not be encouraged to feel better than others
<Seveas> indeed
<SquishyWaffle> Yeah, it just seems like they added the feature just to give the forum another gadget
<mdke> the forum is full of that stuff
<Seveas> talking about ubuntu-meeting, can you have a look at www.ubuntulinux.nl/time and give your opinion
<mdke> a friend of mine suddenly found himself called "Ubuntu Community Developer" without having been informed of it
<mdke> he was put out
<Seveas> lol
<mdke> because he believes in the spirit of Ubuntu
<jjesse> i've never enjoyed the forum to be honest, ive found more support in one of the channel or the wiki or the docs
<Seveas> forums attract kiddies and people that (have) never grow(n) up, that makes me hate them even though there are good things going on in forums
<mdke> its a good place for support
<SquishyWaffle> Well further pressing the question, is it in the moderator's rights to tell me to stop replying to that thread? Can they just tell people to be quiet like that despite some people agreeing with him that there is a problem?
<mdke> SquishyWaffle, again you are right
<Seveas> SquishyWaffle, no, that's definitely not in their rights
<mdke> freedom of expression is important, especially since you are not doing anyone harm
<Seveas> moderators also should keep the CoC in mind
<SquishyWaffle> That was basically what I responded with (via Private Message) but I didn't know if I was overstepping my bounds or if she was overstepping hers.
<jjesse> is the forum an offically supported ubuntu project or run on the side?
<mdke> not yet
<SquishyWaffle> It says they are bound by the Code of Conduct though in Forum FAQ
<mdke> a bit of both i suppose
<SquishyWaffle> so I guess I should just put a description of the problem on the CC agenda and show up for the discussion?
<Seveas> SquishyWaffle, indeed
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> i think it is possible to argue that its within the CC jurisdiction
<mdke> i'll get your back
<SquishyWaffle> Ok, thanks for the help and advice. I'm not trying to cause trouble but I see this as becoming problematic.
<Seveas> i agree on that
<mdke> my views go even further than yours
<mdke> i don't even like the positive feedback
<SquishyWaffle> Would this go under 'Any other business'?
<Seveas> yes
<mdke> i've posted
<SquishyWaffle> ok, I'll get this stuff outlined
<mdke> i agree with the post by sniffer
<mdke> "And i really hate hierarchy's stuff....
<mdke> that's not the open source spirit...."
<SquishyWaffle> heh, Super Duper Moderator
<SquishyWaffle> and yeah, I like the feeling of equality and working towards a mutual goal without feeling inferior to others in stature
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> it is part of the spirit that founded Ubuntu
<mdke> but that spirit is getting lost
<SquishyWaffle> I'm going to use your quote in the wiki entry, mdke, that was very well suited for it
<mdke> ok np
<mdke> its from the code of conduct
<SquishyWaffle> seems like the higher-ups are all for it, you just got a reply
<Seveas> http://www.ubuntulinux.nl/time?view=docteam <-- woohoo, my auto-scaling works
<mdke> SquishyWaffle, yeah saw it
<Seveas> (sorry, just had to tell someone :))
<mdke> ooh that guy is a "Contributor"
<mdke> I WANT A UBUNTU DOCUMENTATION TEAM LABEL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
* mdke hides
* Seveas gives mdke the wannabee-forum-good-and-good-lame-newbie-look-alike-label
<Seveas> wannabee-forum-god*
<mdke> weeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
<mdke> I can't believe people are labelled if they give money
<mdke> that sucks SO BAD
<Seveas> yeah
* mdke gives 0.01 euros
<Seveas> muha
<mdke> eat my euro cent
<SquishyWaffle> this wiki page will probably be neutered once I post it
<mdke> SquishyWaffle, nah
* mdke gets out his sword and stands on the bridge in front of the wiki page
<SquishyWaffle> I'll make a copy of what I post, feel free to add on to it in a few minutes when I post since you have a different spin on things than I do
<SquishyWaffle> I will briefly outline your position so you can expand on it, but you word it better than I do
<mdke> k
<SquishyWaffle> all yours, https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/ForumRepSystem
<SquishyWaffle> maybe we should have a section at the bottom where people can "sign" in agreement?
<mdke> the problem is
<mdke> it is a moot point whether this question is within CC jurisdiction
<SquishyWaffle> The forums bear the name of Ubuntu and say they are bound by the CoC, they are also the most visible and well traveled of our support/interaction mechanisms.
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> i know
<mdke> but in the end it is a private project
<SquishyWaffle> I'm thinking that since the moderators and admins are generally full Ubuntu members, they are therefor subject to the CoC by association also.
<mdke> yes
<mdke> i suppose to some extent the concept of Ubuntu Members also implies Heirarchy
* mdke follows through the full implications of his opinions, and disappears in a flash of hypocrisy
<SquishyWaffle> Well that may be why the whole @ubuntu.com email address thing is so hot
<SquishyWaffle> now look at that reversal of opinion :)
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> SquishyWaffle, my "community developer" friend agrees with you
<mdke> i asked him to post
<SquishyWaffle> Ok, thanks. It's good to hear from some others who are involved with development
<mdke> he's not
<mdke> that's why he was a bit put out when he received the title
<SquishyWaffle> ahh, heh
<mdke> he made a program which became popular on the forum
<mdke> but its wholly unofficial
<SquishyWaffle> The menu editor?
<mdke> *grins*
<mdke> no
<mdke> the boot up manager thing
<mdke> the menu editor guy is pretty involved with #ubuntu-devel
<SquishyWaffle> I do remember seeing the boot manager project
<SquishyWaffle> did you want to make any changes to that wiki page?
<mdke> not right now
<SquishyWaffle> rhu rho, we're going to hear from ubuntu-geek shortly :)
<jdodson> whats up doc team.
<jdodson> this is jdodson from the forums.  hope your day is going well.
<jdodson> anyone around to chat with?
<froud> chat
<jdodson> indeed.
<froud> go ahead
<jdodson> ha!  ok i will.
<froud> what's up
<jdodson> i attended linux fest northwest a bit ago.
<jdodson> anyways, i attended a lecture by corey and it was pretty good.
<jdodson> he said some stuff i was not aware of, so mad props to corey.
<froud> cool good to here you enjoyed it
<jdodson> though, indeed i was dismayed a bit.
<froud> oh, how so
<jdodson> it seems in coreys lecture he seemed to dislike the forums.  now i guess thats fine, given that not everyone has to like them.
<jdodson> we dont force anyone to use them or anything.
<froud> ok
<jdodson> and them it seems from his posts to the mail list, he seems to rather paint us in a negative light.
<froud> whose us
<jdodson> the forums in entirety.
<froud> ok
<froud> he is entitled his point of view (dunno what that is)
<froud> its just his opinion
<jdodson> agreed.
<froud> ok
<jdodson> hold a sec, snagging something.
<jdodson> http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=34054&highlight=noise
<jdodson> i know communication is a two way road.  sometimes words are misunderstood.
<jdodson> it seems to me that there is a chasm between the forums and the doc-team.
<froud> that's it?
<froud> Have to taken it up with Corey yet?
<froud> he is actually a lovable puppy once you get to know him better
* froud reads
<jdodson> i know, i found him to be a nice guy too.
<jdodson> however, as of late it seems, from reading some IRC logs from here, that you more doc-team members might have problems with the forums.
<jdodson> i am here to hold out an olive branch, i want to talk it over some.
<jdodson> he is in the chat room now, i imagine he is away though.
<jdodson> the forums are a collection of users both experienced and not, and they write things and like to help people.  sometimes that looks great, as in the advice is credible, sometimes it is not.
<froud> or just watching
<jdodson> i can understand why the doc-team might be at odds with that.
<jdodson> froud: i understand.
<froud> I am not for or against here
<jdodson> froud: thats cool.
<froud> though I can highlight some problems
<jdodson> thats fine.
<froud> perhaps you can bring solutions
<jdodson> someone from the doc team put it up to talk about some of our disagreements in the next community council meeting, i think that is a good idea.
<jdodson> i think if everyone is together, we can all do the problem/solution bit.
<froud> one of the main problems in general is a fragmentation of information
<jdodson> i heard corey say that when we talked in person.  to be honest i am not sure how we can deal with that, given the nature of forums.
<froud> the more fragmentation that happens the harder it is for users to find info and know it to be corect
<jdodson> i understand.
<froud> as a result
<froud> a user reads someting
<froud> and does it
<froud> all breaks
<jdodson> i really have not heard of that happening too often, however i imagine it has.
<froud> and so somebody on support must fix it
<froud> too much of this and people get frustrated
<SquishyWaffle> jdodson: I'm probably to blame here for starting this one, but as I said, the intent is not negative.
<jdodson> SquishyWaffle: i understand what you are trying to do, really.
<SquishyWaffle> This was made progressively worse when I was contacted by kassetra, who told me to keep my opinion to myself (worded nicely of course).
<jdodson> Right, I don't want to address that issue specifically, I just wanted to say "hey guys lets be friends:)
<jdodson> in a barney sort of way.
<SquishyWaffle> I'm perfectly fine with that, I like the community that has grown on the forums, which is why I'm upset.
<jdodson> lame, i know, but we are on the same team.  i love ubuntu and want it to take over the world.
<jdodson> SquishyWaffle: Ok.  
<Burgundavia> hello, just read the scrollback
<jdodson> It seems though, like you mentioned in you post on the forums, that this issue "the negative rep thing" can be interpreted different ways when we think of the COC.
<SquishyWaffle> I also recognize that you guys most definitely have the final say in things, but I just get the impression that things have been decided before we even started to discuss it and therefore the responses amount to "It's staying how it is" with no compromise or acknowledgement.
<froud> jdodson: I think everyone is very passionate, maybe even a bit too religious.
<jdodson> I think Kassetra definatley has the COC in mind when she posts.
<froud> Burgundavia: hi
<jdodson> froud: I would agree wholehartedly.
<jdodson> Burgundavia: Hey.
<Burgundavia> to clarify, I don't dislike the forums
<jdodson> So if we can interpret the COC in different ways, then there is room for disagreement.  It seems that since ubuntu-geek pays the server bills then he has the last say, especially when the issue is not so black and white.
<Burgundavia> the primary issue is lack of communication
<jdodson> Burgundavia: Cool, I guess it seemed to some of us you did, that is cool to know, thanks.
<Burgundavia> jdodson, I think the community council would be the last person to say
<jdodson> Burgundavia: That is why I am here:)
<jdodson> Burgundavia: I think the CC meeting will be a good thing.
<SquishyWaffle> The doc team vs. forum thing is blown out of proportion, it doesn't really exist. People bicker and complain, it happens. But we all appreciate and understand the value of the forums and the role they play.
<Burgundavia> I have been doing a lot of work in the breezy forum, trying to communicate what is going to happen and to make people file bugs
<SquishyWaffle> The latest bickering is over an isolated issue.
<SquishyWaffle> The "wannabe forum god" remarks were in response to me asking what to do after being PM'd by kassetra.
<jdodson> SquishyWaffle: Ok, thats fair.
<jdodson> SquishyWaffle: I can understand why you make those comments, however, they do not add to community cohesion.  We can all say what we will, that does not mean it is interpreted the way we mean.
<SquishyWaffle> I did not make those remarks
* froud nods at jjesse 
<jdodson> SqushyWaffle: Oh, well whoever did:)
<jdodson> I guess I mean, whoever made them, it doesnt help things.
<SquishyWaffle> As I've said, I am looking at this, sitting in front of my computer completely calm and have been. Discussion is perfectly possible without anger, which is why I've pressed the issue.
<SquishyWaffle> The moderators seem eager to get rid of the thread for "getting out of control" but what i see is a calm discussion looking for answers and opinions.
<jdodson> SquishyWaffle: We our stance is that we think we should keep the system.  It seems that pressing the issue is what some feel is the problem.
* froud ponders how much time and energy is spent on dispute management in FOSS projects
<jdodson> froud: HA!  We could have re-written the kernel 80 times over.
<SquishyWaffle> jdodson: Your stance has been made pretty clear but the issue at hand is that there exists a growing number who have come to disagree with that of the staff's.
<jdodson> SquishyWaffle: I totally agree, there have been many who have disagreed with the mods, no denying that.
<SquishyWaffle> jdodson: And the forums being a community project, the rift is created when the moderators give a "definitely no" rather than "let's talk about it"
* froud wonders if a forum can be a project
<jdodson> SquishyWaffle: Right.  Well I think that we let people voice opinions, however, some feel there is a point where we must move on.
<jdodson> SquishyWaffle: I am totally all for letting people discuss and issue tell they are done, for what its worth.
<SquishyWaffle> And ubuntu-geek, why don't you come in and talk rather than quote me on the forums? There's no reason for that.
<jdodson> SquishyWaffle: Though in the reputation system case, I think since we are not aware of a case of misuse, we realized that it was not worth changing at the time.
<jdodson> SquishyWaffle: ? What?
<jdodson> SquishyWaffle: I am missing something...:)
<SquishyWaffle> http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=212629&postcount=37
<SquishyWaffle> This whole concept of respect seems to be so fluid. I'm being disrespectful by discussing this with you apparently.
<SquishyWaffle> Greetings, Ubuntu-geek
<Ubuntu-geek> geesh people.. 
<jdodson> sup geek.
<Ubuntu-geek> Just come to join the fun..
<SquishyWaffle> As I've said, I'm not angry here and I'm not trying to be bothersome. This docteam-forum rift doesn't exist and there's nothing to worry about.
<Ubuntu-geek> Seems ever since linuxfest the people here in #ubuntu-doc have had a serious problem with the forums
<jdodson> SquishyWaffle: Thats fair.
<Ubuntu-geek> oh i think it does 
* froud takes a ring-sides seat. Bets!!! anybody
<jdodson> froud: LOL, thats not terrible helpful.
<SquishyWaffle> ubuntu-geek: I spent all of my online time here and we work closely with the forums to find content for our documentation, I don't see this rift.
* Seveas rings the bell for the first round
<jdodson> SquishyWaffle: it is not my intent to point fingers, seriously.
<jdodson> SquishyWaffle: I have no problems with the doc team.
<SquishyWaffle> ubuntu-geek: I think we can all agree that the forums play an important part of the community and we think it fosters said community. This is why some of us are upset right now.
<SquishyWaffle> It's because we CARE, not because we hate the forums :)
<Ubuntu-geek> Squish: So exactly what is your problem then? Some people have titles you dont?
<SquishyWaffle> No, look at my original post, I said nothing about titles the entire time. This was a side issue brought up by another.
<Seveas> Ubuntu-geek, the concept of titles goes against the spirit of Ubuntu
<Ubuntu-geek> Oh so now we dont care?
<jdodson> SquishyWaffle: Then we all care about the forums, <group hug> *ducks*
* froud agres with Seveas 
<Ubuntu-geek> So everyone should be moderators and administrators?
<Seveas> Ubuntu-geek, no
<SquishyWaffle> That's not what the post said.
<Ubuntu-geek> It seems you guys are the only ones who are crying
<jdodson> Seveas: I dont think title are against the COC, i mean the "masters of the universe" title, ubuntu has plenty of titles, like developer, etc.
<Ubuntu-geek> exactly, even people at canonical have titles
<Seveas> administrators/moderators are fine, but things like that respect-o-meter just don't belong in a community like this
<SquishyWaffle> We are the only ones "crying" because coming up and making posts that go against someone's wish is never fun and nobody wants to cause drama like this.
<Ubuntu-geek> lol well it seems you do want drama
<SquishyWaffle> The "reputation" system is what bothered ME personally, and some others. Look at the thread when rep was initially implemented, one of your own moderators expressed alarm.
<jdodson> SquishyWaffle: It is not my intent to cause drama, it is my intent to communicate and bridge our gap.  seriously i mean no ill will.
<SquishyWaffle> jdodson: I know, you've been helpful and understanding here.
<Ubuntu-geek> And it has been stated that if IF IF IF the reputation system caused problems it would be removed, as far as titles no i will not remove them.
<SquishyWaffle> ubuntu-geek: I would classify said exchange of words a problem, no?
<jdodson> Ubuntu-geek: Right, that seems fair.
<SquishyWaffle> The titles were off-topic, that's another matter entirely.
<jdodson> SquishyWaffle: Right, so if there "is" an abuse, do you not think it would be a good time to handle it then and not now?
<SquishyWaffle> My gripe was that we are all here to encourage each other in helping and working towards our common goal. The reputation system could instead be replaced with something where you can reward people for helping rather than critique their posts. If it's not helpful, then no points.
<SquishyWaffle> Several popular support forums implement this method and it's both a fun and supportive way to encourage helping out. Some hold contests to see who can help the most people, etc.
<jdodson> SquishyWaffle: Interesting idea.  I had heard of no such implementation.
* froud bets 10 beers on SquishyWaffle 
<SquishyWaffle> Some people are very thin-skinned. If someone genuinely tries to help someone and is neg-repped because he was wrong, he might be upset and not take the time to reply in the future.
<jdodson> froud: I usually bet on myself, don't alway win though:)
<SquishyWaffle> "I'm all for giving people credit for their efforts, so how about just allowing positive rep points? This makes people happy and it becomes a positive thing rather than a method to rile each other up when you wonder who neg repped you."
<Ubuntu-geek> So if we held a contest, is that going agaisnt what you are saying? Basically we would be encouraging someone else to help more then others and being rewarded? How is this different then the user titles
<SquishyWaffle> That was in the initial post, jdodson
<SquishyWaffle> ubuntu-geek: read my post, it said _nothing_ (ala, not at all) about titles
<SquishyWaffle> here's a link: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=40056&page=1&pp=10
<SquishyWaffle> I'm Gtaylor
<Ubuntu-geek> Yeah I figured
<jdodson> SquishyWaffle: Ah, well I skim some.... It a problem I recieved in College, *dont want to read 10,000 pages*:)
<Ubuntu-geek> I am at work and need to work for.. i'll brb
<SquishyWaffle> That post was made in hopes of improving a forum I enjoy, notice it's not inflammatory, it's not derogitory, it's constructive.
<jdodson> U-G: later.
<Seveas> SquishyWaffle, -1 rep
<Seveas> :p
<SquishyWaffle> hehe
<jdodson> Well anyways, seems we are at a disagreement, which is part of the COC:)
<jdodson> sorry that last bit was COC :)
<jjesse> did i miss a fight?  seems like there was a ton in my scroll
<SquishyWaffle> On a side-note, you can't come in here guns ablaze calling us the ubnutu-doc forum haters, throw assumptions, then leave when things look to be going against you.
* SquishyWaffle is directing that towards Ubuntu-geek btw.
<jdodson> SquishyWaffle: Ummm, my guns were not blazing, sorry, i did not mean to do that.
<jdodson> oh
* froud wants 10 beers
<SquishyWaffle> I sincerely do appreciate your attempt to moderate this jdodson.
<jdodson> froud: agreed.
<jdodson> cool.
<jdodson> Anyways, I gotta run guys, I will try to make it to the CC meeting.  
<SquishyWaffle> ok, thanks for stopping by.
<jdodson> no problem.  rock on ubuntu.
* froud muses over how doc-team got mixed with forums
<jdodson> froud: we both deal in text?
<jdodson> :) later.
<froud> later
<jdodson> Oh an corey i meant no disrespect to you, i was attempting to understand better.  i did not mean to paint you into a "you are doing this" it was more of a "it seems to me to be."
<jdodson> rock on.
<froud> geeze I am not here for a few days and all hell breaks loose
<SquishyWaffle> see what you did froud? :)
<SquishyWaffle> I would've thought the "I hate Ubuntu" thread would've been a target for more drama: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=41612&goto=newpost
<froud> actually I like those thread types
<SquishyWaffle> they're definitely amusing
<SquishyWaffle> whiner: It doesn't work, this sucks!
<froud> they are very informative and should not be discouraged
<SquishyWaffle> You know, this whole thing made me realize something scary. Since we have an IRC->Webpage logging system, everything we say will probably be crawled by Google and stowed away for years to come :)
* froud does not personally like blogs or forums
<SquishyWaffle> So we could maybe say something like: Hey grandchildren!
<froud> yep
<SquishyWaffle> or... Hello class of 2050!
<froud> mind watch you say google is watching you
<SquishyWaffle> It is a bit creepy, no?
<froud> somewhere, google did big brother in
<SquishyWaffle> That's what we get for picking weird names, googling SquishyWaffle only shows me
<jjesse> to paraphrase slashdot "but google is good and not evil like MS"
<SquishyWaffle> ugh slashdot
<froud> jjesse: you sure of that?
<SquishyWaffle> woo, googling GregTaylor has me in the second result :)
<jjesse> froud thats a lot of what i read on slashdot can be boiled down to, MS = Evil Google = good
<SquishyWaffle> And third
<froud> SquishyWaffle: you think my choosing the nick froud was just a fluke?
<froud> try google it
<SquishyWaffle> world of Froud :)
<jjesse> wrold of froud
<SquishyWaffle> You're right man: Brian Froud - Fantasy art by enchanted artists: faery art
* SquishyWaffle ducks
<froud> jjesse: that's just a new war. ppl got bored of the browser wars and the lin vs win war
<froud> SquishyWaffle: ;-)
<SquishyWaffle> need to make a new James Bond movie where he is hired on to infiltrate the evil Google corporation for Microsoft
<froud> hmmm
<froud> I'll stick to my goblins
<froud> the world of magic protects me
<SquishyWaffle> oh no, please not Harry Potter
<froud> under my cloak I can froud around anywhere I like
<froud> mental, but brilliant
<froud> feel the power of the darkside
* SquishyWaffle throws silly putty
<froud> Hmmmm
<froud> sivang: shalom gaver, mashlom gha
<SquishyWaffle> I'm not sure what that is but I don't speak it :)
<froud> one of the five I speak
<SquishyWaffle> hebrew?
<froud> yes
<froud> bingo
<SquishyWaffle> do I get a cookie?
* froud passes SquishyWaffle a cooky
* SquishyWaffle does a dance while he tries to figure out what in the heck that means :)
<froud> so Seveas tell us about yourself
<froud> so SquishyWaffle  tell us about yourself
<SquishyWaffle> Hamaychin mitzaadei gaver!
<SquishyWaffle> I can copy and paste 10 languages
<froud> Hmmm
<SquishyWaffle> Sheasah li kol tzarki
<froud> no I actually speak it
<froud> no copy paste
<SquishyWaffle> I know but I don't :)
<froud> So tell me about yourself
<froud> Where are you
<SquishyWaffle> I work/attend Clemson University in South Carolina (USA)
<SquishyWaffle> Working on a BS in Computer Science
<froud> Student, nice
<froud> why do you contribute to foss
<SquishyWaffle> I've always been into OS development. I started at an early age with text-based games (MU/MUD/MUX) and moved on to more complex things like Ubuntu. It's just a good feeling to create something and have people make use of it.
<froud> nice karma
<froud> why ubuntu?
<SquishyWaffle> good question :) I have distro hopped for years, always finding things I like but never settling on one complete package. I ended up realizing a year or two ago that obviously I'd never be completely happy. For this reason, I did exactly what open-source developers have done for years: I began to learn how I could contribute to a project with potential and make it what I and everyone else wanted.
<SquishyWaffle> I learned about Ubuntu while packaging RPMs for Yoper. I remember seeing posts making fun of the "stupid" name and naturally I was curious. I stopped by after the first testing release and was really hooked.
<froud> what do you contribute on at ubuntu?
<SquishyWaffle> I always loved debian for my servers, but now I'm able to run a Debian derivative on my personal machines as well :)
<SquishyWaffle> I'm learning how to package and have already submitted some patches for the documentation. I've done some wiki work such as an index of docbook tags and will help with the styleguide.
<jjesse> grin i was curious about the name as well Squishy
<SquishyWaffle> The name was just pulled out of thin air one late night
<SquishyWaffle> Aunt Jemima scares me
<SquishyWaffle> Like some people are afraid of the Quaker Oats guy
<jjesse> grin i meant i was curious about the name ubuntu when i first heard about it
<froud> SquishyWaffle: yes I saw your work, nice
<SquishyWaffle> jjesse: A lot of people are, perhaps it's an added plus :)
<SquishyWaffle> froud: Thanks, small baby steps
<froud> SquishyWaffle: you are already a docbook user
<SquishyWaffle> froud: A docbook user? I've contributed, yes.
<froud> you know docbook
<SquishyWaffle> I can swing it, I just started using it a week or so again but I'm familiar with XML/HTMl/PHP and it's just another markup language.
<froud> yes
<SquishyWaffle> a bunch of tags to be memorized and understood :)
<froud> you going to continue giving patches
<froud> you are like totally empowered to take any of our docs and work on them
<SquishyWaffle> I plan on contributing much, I'm just pondering the next move since we have that docteam meeting coming up.
<SquishyWaffle> I'm a KDE enthusiast and the structure of those documents needs to be hammered out, so I don't want to start without seeing what's up with them.
<froud> I would not let that defocus you
* froud is a Kubuntu user
<SquishyWaffle> Ahh, very good :)
<froud> do a verion on me
<froud> version
<SquishyWaffle> I can also write docs at work since I've converted 90% of the lab to Kubuntu and can therefor justify writing material that our researchers can use when learning the ropes.
<froud> Kopete hey
<SquishyWaffle> yep, I'm lazy :)
<froud> well there are a few docs for KDE in svn
<froud> feel free do just do dude
<froud> block the noise and just do
<SquishyWaffle> Definitely, I'll probably have a lull and more free time soon and I fully intend to belt some things out.
<froud> perhaps you should send your public pgp key to elmo and enrico
<froud> I will back you for commit access
<SquishyWaffle> I can but I'm not sure what the process of getting commit access involves.
<froud> I just told you
<SquishyWaffle> That's it?
<froud> send your public pgp key to elmo and enrico
<froud> I will back your account
<SquishyWaffle> ok, thanks
<jdodson> hey all.
<SquishyWaffle> greetings
<jdodson> did i miss anything?  
<SquishyWaffle> froud: Is there a place where elmo/enrico's emails are listed?
<froud> jdodson: thinking of joining the docteam
<froud> we need patches
<froud> msg me your email
<jdodson> froud: You are thinking of joining the doc team?  or am i thinking of joining?
<froud> ok gimme 5
<jdodson> froud: ok.
<SquishyWaffle> jdodson: He was asking you :)
<jdodson> froud: I have been working with Corey a bit on the fridge.
<SquishyWaffle> It's got a really cool logo
<SquishyWaffle> shoot, quite literally too
<jdodson> froud: I was actually wanting to construct some Docs about the fact that certain games like Quake3 have sound issues.  I have found many fixes, some good, some not so good.
<jdodson> SquishyWaffle: Cool.
<SquishyWaffle> jdodson: Are those with the changes in mind for Breezy's sound system?
<Burgundavia> the sound issues should be resolved for Breezy
* SquishyWaffle nods.
<jdodson> Burgundavia: Cool, what are the planning, changing from ESD to?
<Burgundavia> currently Breezy goes straight to ALSA dmix
<jdodson> Burgundavia: Right.
<froud> jdodson: you say we trade in text
<froud> jdodson: seems fair ppl at forums contribute some text to us
<froud> ;-)
<jdodson> froud: Yes, we do:)
<jdodson> froud: Thats cool.  If parties are willing.
<jdodson> Burgundavia: Thats cool, well I was thinking of constructing some docs on sound to deal with Hoary for the time being.  I was going to post them to the hoary gaming section.
<jdodson> Was wondering if you guys recommended something else.
<Burgundavia> lets see if we can coordinate taht with jiyoou
<jdodson> And also, if there was some format you recommended.  I talked to Corey about this at LinuxFest, I was unclear what the expectations were.
<jdodson> Burgundavia: Cool, I think that would be good.
<SquishyWaffle> Once the wiki is moved to the new codebase, it's going to be a lot better for stuff like this.
<jdodson> SquishyWaffle: What codebase are they moving it to?
<SquishyWaffle> I believe they're going back to MoinMoin with some modifications
<SquishyWaffle> In any case it's much much faster
<jdodson> SquishyWaffle: Just when I got used to the current system.  
<jdodson> Well thats cool.
<SquishyWaffle> It's just so slow!
<jdodson> SquishyWaffle: I thought I was my 256k/256k DSL:)
<SquishyWaffle> And the new one has a lot more functionality
<SquishyWaffle> No no, I'm on a huge University pipe and it crawls
<jdodson> SquishyWaffle: Ah.
<SquishyWaffle> I had to get to the Wiki on dialup once, very unhappy half hour.
<jdodson> Well anyways, I gotta work now, I might be in and out later on.
<SquishyWaffle> seeya
<froud> Hmm I thought all unies had huge free pipes
<froud> paid for by the gov
<SquishyWaffle> I don't at home though :( Living with grandparents while working here this summer (AOL dialup)
<SquishyWaffle> We've got a combined pipe of approx 150-175 M/s on campus I believe, not positive.
<froud> oh the pain of dialup
<froud> 56K flex
<SquishyWaffle> I get blazin speeds of 2K/s usually
<froud> and I though we in Africa had probelms
* SquishyWaffle lives out in the middle of the boonies in the mountains
<SquishyWaffle> Phone/Cable constantly goes out
<froud> SquishyWaffle: have you added the kde341 to any of your systems?
<SquishyWaffle> all of them
<SquishyWaffle> I've found it to run a bit better on our hardware at least
<froud> what di you add to sources.list
<froud> deb http://kubuntu.org/hoary-kde341 hoary-updates main
<froud> or
<froud> deb http://download.kde.org/stable/3.4.1/kubuntu hoary-updates main
<SquishyWaffle> deb http://kubuntu.org/hoary-kde341 hoary-updates main
<froud> Hmm why did you choose that one if I can ask?
<SquishyWaffle> I believe it was the first one posted or the only one that worked for us at the time the 3.4.1 announcement was made.
<SquishyWaffle> Eventually we're going to mirror it on campus
<froud> shikes my wifi is just on the fringe of my network
<froud> shikes my wifi is just on the fringe of my network
<froud> hmmm fair enough
<SquishyWaffle> Maybe if you hold your laptop sideways and slightly elevated you'll pick up a signal :
<SquishyWaffle> Or over your head
<froud> well I am in bed on the otherside of the house
<froud> SquishyWaffle: you tracking devel on Kynaptic
<SquishyWaffle> Not closely but it now works reasonably well. I have tinkered with it each time the package updates.
<SquishyWaffle> The searching is nice and fast :)
<froud> that last patch to the manual was yours, right
<SquishyWaffle> I made one to kquickguide, last week
<SquishyWaffle> Working on one for the style guide with my tag list in it
<froud> OK so you did not patch kyaptic manual
<SquishyWaffle> No, it wasn't even displaying for me with Yelp
<froud> yelp?
<SquishyWaffle> There's some kind of missing dependency, a few other Kubuntu users can't view the kynaptic.xml file either.
<froud> kde doc dude
<SquishyWaffle> Eh? Nobody mentioned that :)
<froud> yes mvo did not do the help integration
* SquishyWaffle was told the only XML/docbook reader for Kubuntu was Yelp
<froud> no Khelpcenter
<SquishyWaffle> I thought that only supported KHTML?
<froud> kubuntu = kde = khelpcenter
<froud> no plain html to
<froud> but mvo did not integrate the help
<froud> I must speak to him about it
<SquishyWaffle> yeah
* froud of to speak to mvo
<SquishyWaffle> khelpcenter kynaptic.xml returns a huge blob of text
<froud> khelpcenter does not read xml like yelp
<froud> mvo is just leaving I will talk to him tomorrow
<SquishyWaffle> ok
<froud> yeah khelpcenter does not have stylesheets to transform xml
<SquishyWaffle> but they can fix it?
<froud> only yelp works that way
<froud> yes and do they want to
<SquishyWaffle> ugh :)
<froud> if they can support all of docbook and not part like is the case with yelp
<froud> khelpcenter works faster and is better than yelp
<froud> but in kubuntu it is a bit messed up
<froud> dunno how that happened
<Ubuntu-geek> i am back.. if you want to continue
<SquishyWaffle> yeah, I do like khelpcenter.
<jjesse> like when i open up khelpcenter it doesn't show any of the docs, will that change?
<SquishyWaffle> Ubuntu-geek: I'm not sure what you want to continue, the thread has been locked and it's apparently end of story until the CC meeting.
<Ubuntu-geek> very well then.. see you there
<Burgundavia> which thread are we discussing?
<SquishyWaffle> You can buy me a pizza though :)
<froud> Hmm you see no docs at all
<Ubuntu-geek> nah i'll pass.. thanks
<Ubuntu-geek> burg: the one were squish went off about the reputation system on the forums..
<Burgundavia> ah, that one
<SquishyWaffle> The only people that went off are you guys, ubuntu-geek, the thread wasn't flamed :)
<Ubuntu-geek> yes that one..
<SquishyWaffle> I'm not sure why you are here throwing salt in the wounds
<Ubuntu-geek> ahh throw it back on me..
<Ubuntu-geek> how easy..
<SquishyWaffle> jd stopped by and talked to us and we've got as much settled as we can for now, let's just leave it at that.
<Ubuntu-geek> thats cool..
<Ubuntu-geek> i just took the forums offline i dont need this hassle
<SquishyWaffle> I'm not sure what you're getting at, but that's a pity.
<Ubuntu-geek> i am getting at the fact that the people on the doc team have serious issues with the forums..
<Ubuntu-geek> regardless..
* SquishyWaffle facepalms.
<SquishyWaffle> We just had a very positive, lively conversation with jd about working with the forums in the future.
<Ubuntu-geek> ok great see you at the meeting then
* SquishyWaffle nodnods.
<jjesse> the docs i see are just kde specific not kubuntu specific
<SquishyWaffle> yeah jjesse, that's how it is for me too
<jjesse> that will change in breezy?
<SquishyWaffle> definitely
<SquishyWaffle> No sense writing docs if nobody can find them :)
<SquishyWaffle> Either that or we may just replace the KDE documentation with Ubuntu-specific stuff entirely, we'll have to see at the docteam meeting.
<froud> hmm I see all kde docs
<froud> but ubuntu-docs did not ship any kubuntu related docs in hoary, so you wont see anything of that in kubuntu khelpcenter
<SquishyWaffle> Something to look forward to in Breezy :)
<froud> yeah, but do you see the kde docs
<jjesse> yeah i do
<SquishyWaffle> I see some but it doesn't look like they were organized right
<froud> ok that's good
<froud> organized right that would be an upstream discussion, since we did not package any docs for kubuntu
<SquishyWaffle> yeah
<froud> breezy is the first attempt to do so
<froud> looks like kwickguide is a definate
<SquishyWaffle> Breezy is going to be awesome, so many new updates and fixes and improvements
<froud> the kynaptic manual will probably move upstream
<SquishyWaffle> That's good news
<froud> its ok for us to do specific app docs here, so long as we devel them in compliance with upstream requirements
<froud> then when they are ready, we shunt them upstream
<froud> I have done this will a few apps
<froud> works well
<SquishyWaffle> Win-win situation
<froud> yes, but ppl get confused
<froud> it is important to diff when we say ubuntu or kubuntu docs that we do not mean docs that will move upstream
<froud> the diff can be seen this way gnome docs and ubuntu docs, kde docs and kubuntu docs
* SquishyWaffle nods
<froud> a gnome doc is a manual for a single application
<froud> same for a kde doc
* froud sips coffee and munches on Bakers biscuits
<froud> the wonders of married life
<SquishyWaffle> Shoot, this drama has kept me here 3 hours past my lunchtime. Must go eat :) I'll be back.
<froud> later
<Burgundavia> salut mpt
<froud> Hmmm I wonder if KOffice will go into Breezy
<Burgundavia> file a bug and ask for it
<froud> it is not a bug:-)
<froud> I wonder if it would be better to install KOffice as stock apps for office productivity instea of OOo
<Burgundavia> if they can do everything OO can do
<froud> not sure that they can
<froud> but they can allot
<froud> I wonder how users would react
<Seveas> Koffice starts with a K
<Seveas> so it's a bug
<Seveas> </rant>
<froud> kan't beleive it
<Seveas> ah kome on
<Seveas> you kan :)
<froud> I see you are an ardent gnome fan
<Seveas> eh, sort of :)
<froud> where did you put your foot tattoo
<Seveas> lol :)
<Seveas> in the upper left corner of my screen
<froud> kde rocks dude
<froud> I have proof
<froud> finally
<Seveas> and gnome is the dynamite that wrecks the rock :)
<Seveas> you have? show me!
<froud> I have been working with a freind to get his internet cafe running linux
<jjesse> kde is much beter the gnome
<froud> we installed gnome and kde on all boxes
<froud> for the first week we let regular customers choose which they want
<froud> they bounced back and forth
<froud> in the second week we notice more using kde than gnome
<froud> we did no preach
<froud> we wanted to see what would happen
<froud> we only helped when they got stuck
<froud> more people got stuck using gnome than kde
<froud> that tells me something
<froud> I hav ethe actual proof
<Seveas> that's because more people are made dumb by windows, which kde resembles. They can no longer think in the clean gnome way :)
<froud> seen it with my own eye
<froud> nah dude
<froud> that a kop out
<froud> I want ppl to use linux
* Seveas too
<Seveas> froud, I bet you like emacs iver vim too?
<Seveas> over*
<froud> if they are prepared to do so with kde then I keep them going
<froud> no I dontuse emacs
<froud> I use vi
<jjesse> i like emacs :)
<Seveas> ah, thank god, there's a bit of sanity left in you froud :)
<froud> nano is good
<froud> sometime pico
* Seveas has missed a nice friendly gnome-vs-kde or vim-vs-$EDITOR war
<Seveas> usually it's instant flamefest
<froud> nah me is tired of wars
<Seveas> this was a gentlemens fight
* Seveas too
<froud> me want to make love, not war
<Seveas> but sometimes it's nice to hear what the 'other side' has as arguments now
<Seveas> your argument is quite convincing
<froud> no really, it was an amazing thing to watch users
<Seveas> yeah
<froud> this freind of mine has opened his caffe in a poor area
<froud> he spent time speaking to the ppl about linux
<froud> he did not want to try someting that would chase the customers away
<Seveas> heh
<Seveas> fluxbox :D
<froud> he was amazed how many know of Linux and where eager to try it
<Seveas> that would have made them run away screaming...
<froud> so we decided, with there permission to run the experiment
<Seveas> nice
<froud> you are cruel
<Seveas> i know
<froud> so I still say kde rocks
<froud> if it can get users using it more than gnome then it is tops for me
<froud> guess what there favorite app is
<Seveas> amarok?
<Seveas> konqueror?
<Seveas> kvim?
<froud> KControlCenter
<Seveas> k[insert name] 
<Seveas> hehehe
<froud> they rave about it
<Seveas> tweaking galore...
<froud> they say that is why they like kde
<froud> they can find all the control settings in one place
<froud> that has been one of the main differentiators for them
<Seveas> gnome-control-center
<froud> and so they like kde more
<froud> not quite the same is it?
<froud> the number of features and options is also someting they seem to like
<froud> I would have thought that would have bamboozled them
<Seveas> yeah, sounds like ex-windows patients :)
<froud> but it has no
<Seveas> But what is your personal preference?
<froud> well lets face it windows does rule
<froud> kde
<Seveas> windows rule..?
<froud> yes windows rules
<Seveas> well, it rules as in most people still use it
<froud> exactly
<froud> so they jump between kde and windows is not as big
<Seveas> so ex-windows patients will go to gnome via KDE :)
<froud> ppl get productive quick
<froud> maybe
<froud> at least some will
<Seveas> and some won't
<froud> sure
<Burgundavia> my brother was a power windows user
<Burgundavia> and he jumped to gnome with no issue
<Seveas> people differ and they always will
<froud> but kde is a better way to port a windows user to linux
<jjesse> thats cause it looks more like windows
<froud> the barrier to entry is lower
<Seveas> froud, as in it sucks almost as hard, true ;)
<froud> yes that is not a problem is it
<Seveas> sorry, a rant i couldn't miss :)
<froud> no kde rocks dude
<froud> its way ahead
<jjesse> light years ahead
<froud> the DCOP technology and KPart stuff jst works so well
* froud hugs jjesse 
<froud> Seveas: I am willing to give users whatever it is they want so long as they will work on Linux
<Seveas> :)
<Seveas> I like that thought
<jjesse> the best tool for the job is what i always push for
<Seveas> But I rather spend a few hours teaching them the right way than letting them use KDE Krapware..
<froud> if kde makes it more possible then I think it is better to try with that rather than fight harder
<froud> Seveas: kde apps are rock solid dude
<froud> kIIIb for example
<froud> hello enrico 
<jjesse> hello enrico join the kde vs gnome war that froud has going :)
<Seveas> k3b beats gnome burning apps to death indeed
<froud> its no war
<SquishyWaffle> We could bring in a fluxbox junky to make it interesting
<Seveas> hmm yeah :)
<enrico> hi
* SquishyWaffle waves
<enrico> oh, no, thanks
<froud> KDM is better than GDM any days
* enrico had enough kde vs gnome wars so far
* froud asks enrico to see message regarding SquishyWaffle 
<enrico> What's SquishyWaffle?
* SquishyWaffle peeps
<enrico> Hi SquishyWaffle !
<SquishyWaffle> Hello enrico!
<froud> Seveas: you gonna tel me know that GDM is better than KDM
<jjesse> man some of these open source documentations suck 
<jjesse> i hate trying to figure things out w/ them
<froud> welcome to FOSS jjesse 
<Seveas> Use the source, luke :)
<jjesse> !coder
<jjesse> barely a linux geek
<SquishyWaffle> Any of you ever played with TinyOS? I think that's quite possibly the most incomplete documentation of any large OS project :)
* froud noticed that Seveas has no answer and assumes Seveas knows that he is right :-)
<Seveas> froud, i wouldn't know, havent tried kdm in years
<froud> ouch shame
<jjesse> so the entire arguement has been based on an older version of kde?
<froud> Seveas: sudo apt-get install kubuntu-desktop
<Seveas> jjesse, kdm != kde
<jjesse> oh the window manager
<Seveas> froud, no thanks...
<froud> when finished dpkg reconfigure to use kdm
<Seveas> i'm happy with gnome
<SquishyWaffle> kdm is sexy
<Seveas> For sexyness I have my fiancee :)
<SquishyWaffle> blargh
<Burgundavia> why the hell do we have two login managers?
<Burgundavia> is that not something the freedesktop.org should handle now?
<enrico> SquishyWaffle: preferred username?
<SquishyWaffle> enrico: gtaylor if possible
<froud> Burgundavia: yeah get rid of GDM and use KDM
* SquishyWaffle cheers froud :)
<enrico> SquishyWaffle: sent the request.  You and froud should be in Cc.
* froud thnks enrico 
<SquishyWaffle> enrico: Much appreciated
<froud> Burgundavia: some apps were developed to run only under centain window manager
<enrico> It's the minimum I can do
<Burgundavia> that is not a showstopper
<froud> Burgundavia: but today most run under both
<froud> KDE did a better window manger
* Seveas has had gnome with sawfish, KDE beat that allright
<froud> but gnome did not want to use it becuase it did not come from gnome
<SquishyWaffle> Why is Gnome's symbol a foot?
<froud> gdm and kdm are not lightweight
<froud> often wondered and never found an answer
<froud> Seveas: what's with the gnome common dialogs
<froud> Seveas: why must they be so complicated
<enrico> SquishyWaffle: it's the footprint of the gnome
<froud> a simple save as operation
<enrico> (the icon)
<enrico> when you look at the memory, it's the footprint of the giant :)(
<froud> needs more clicks that needed
* SquishyWaffle laughs
<Burgundavia> froud, common dialogs?
<SquishyWaffle> enrico: What gnome though?
<Burgundavia> froud, kde's idea of putting everything in one menu is crazy
<enrico> SquishyWaffle: maybe the footprint of a bonobo monkey rather than a gnome
* enrico is a bit lost
<froud> Burgundavia: why
<froud> start > 
<SquishyWaffle> I heart my KDE menu, and you can make submenus on your panel bar
<Burgundavia> because most of the time, you are not looking for the control panel, etc.
<enrico> but both gnome and kde have quite high memory footprints
* enrico is for a law stating that developers need to have the fastest machine to compile their software, and the slowest machine to run it
<froud> he he
<froud> Burgundavia: you can have as many menus as you want in kde
<froud> you can even have a kasbar
<Burgundavia> yes, but most users will never change the default
<froud> and a MAC OS menu
<Burgundavia> it is not about what you can do, it is about what is default
<froud> default is good
<froud> all in one place
<froud> easy nav
<froud> map to win bitton on keyboards
* SquishyWaffle has been looking for a keyboard with a tux icon instead of the window
<froud> use nav keys to move in programs menu
<SquishyWaffle> anybody know where to get them?
<enrico> SquishyWaffle: I've seen someone selling stickers
<froud> SquishyWaffle: that would be mice
<enrico> to put on keys
<Seveas> froud, can KDE also do the Mac trick with the one-menu-bar-for-all-programs?
<Seveas> i mean the bar at the top in MacOS
<froud> yes
<froud> yes
<Seveas> ok, i'm sold
<Seveas> I always wanted that
<SquishyWaffle> Does that mean we win?
<enrico> SquishyWaffle: http://www.tomshardware.com/hardnews/20040817_142635.html
<froud> hav eyou seen the pather os
<Seveas> SquishyWaffle, no one wins :)
<froud> icon zooming
<SquishyWaffle> enrico: Good stuff :)
<froud> I think gentoo also use it
<SquishyWaffle> Seveas: Shouldn't you be installing Kubuntu right now? heh
<froud> Seveas: cool stuff
<Seveas> SquishyWaffle, /me is checking out the size of the beast
<froud> Seveas: I forget the name of the them that does it
<SquishyWaffle> mmm, what kind of connection do you have?
* froud should be a kde salesman
<SquishyWaffle> that'd be an interesting job :)
<Seveas> hmm, 306 mb space and 106 mb download to try out an inferior DE again, nothx
<froud> Seveas: your loss mate
<Seveas> i'm not gonna loose sleep over it :)
<Seveas> and i bet neither will you :)
* froud plays with his Mac OS style top menu program bar 
<Seveas> hehe
<froud> its a nifty thing
* SquishyWaffle does a bunch of cool stuff and doesn't tell Seveas about it
<froud>  one day Seveas will see the color
* Seveas does a bunch of cool things that don't impress you caus you can do it in 20 different ways with or without sugar and milk and it cost you hours to set it up right
<froud>  and realize that we are speaking the truth
<froud>  perhaps Seveas is scared to try it
<SquishyWaffle> yarr
<Seveas> :)
* SquishyWaffle makes chicken noises?
<SquishyWaffle> Does anyone remember the URL for the IRC logs?
<Seveas>  /topic
<froud> irclog.workaround.org
<SquishyWaffle> oh shoot, I never re-log so I forgot about that
<SquishyWaffle> Thanks
<froud> mmmm you just gotta love apt-get install
<Seveas> froud, apt-get
<Seveas> use aptitude!
<froud> Seveas: like I need a hole in my head
<Seveas> ghe
<Seveas> you have one already
<froud> rather use synaptic or kynaptic or kpackage
<Seveas> otherwise you wou;dn't use KDE
* froud growls
<froud> off to take a showr later
<SquishyWaffle> I'm happy to hear that the forum problems have been resolved, the staff have talked it over and have come to an agreement, thus removing the rep system. I think a good decision was made and I'm glad it was done.
<Seveas> ok, i took the step
<Seveas> i installed kubuntu-desktop
<Seveas> and i'm right now purging it again
<Seveas> It's still krap
* SquishyWaffle looks around for froud.
<Seveas> he went for a shower
<Seveas> (more than one-and-a-half hour ago)
<SquishyWaffle> hopefully he didn't slip
<SquishyWaffle> off for the night I go!
#ubuntu-doc 2005-06-22
<mdke> evening all
<mdke> holy shit
<mdke> Seveas, looks like I have given the doc team a bad reputation on the forums
<Burgundavia> mdke, where?
<mdke> Burgundavia, i'm embarassed to show you, but i will
<mdke> gimme a moment to try and straighten things out
* Burgundavia also runs under the doc team banner on the forums
<mdke> a joke i cracked in here was taken wholly too seriously and out of context
<Burgundavia> forgot it was patch tuesday
<Burgundavia> have to remind my father
<Burgundavia> as my brother now runs Ubuntu
<Burgundavia> mdke, what is your forum username?
<mdke> i'll give you the link
<mdke> just lemme finish writing something
<mdke> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=40056&page=1&pp=10
<mdke> the author of that is SquishyWaffle, who posted this: https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/ForumRepSystem
<mdke> i happened to agree with him
<mdke> but it seems some of my comments were misinterpreted
<Burgundavia> so I see you made this comment:
<Burgundavia> Naturally everyone is entitled to their opinion on this. my view is that the spirit of Ubuntu (and open source in general) is that status is not important. Sadly this point is missed by many in the community, and things like heirarchy do nothing to promote this spirit.
<Burgundavia> is there an earlier one?
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> but you have to read on
<mdke> :-(
<mdke> sadly the thread is closed so I can't try and clarify publically
<Burgundavia> I don't see anything that damaging
<Burgundavia> you didn't call anyone cocksuckers or something similar
<mdke> read all the way?
<mdke> my remarks were entirely limited to the heirarchy and reputation system, but they seem to have been taken as anti-forum, which they were not at all.
<Burgundavia> tempest in a tea pot I say
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> well the reason i've taken it badly is that i don't want the relationship between forum and docteam to break down just as it is starting to draw closer
<mdke> i have written him a conciliatory message
<mdke> Burgundavia, anyhow, how are you? did you resolve your issues with LUG/gaming yesterday?
<Burgundavia> I am going to gaming
<Burgundavia> going to miss the lug for another month
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> got another solution for the key?
<mdke> Be RiGhT bAcK reading chan scrollback
<Burgundavia> I can get is signed
<mdke> well reading the scrollback has convinced me that the problem is more serious than I thought
<mdke> where did they get the impression we hate them?
<Burgundavia> I also mad an stupid comment
<Burgundavia> to ubuntu-devel
<Burgundavia> which is mirrored to the forums
<mdke> i saw that
<mdke> it was so obviously not meant in a bad way
<mdke> even so, we clearly don't speak for the docteam
<Burgundavia> from a developer perspective, most of what is one the forums is noise
<mdke> thats not even a criticism
<Burgundavia> mdke, I do now, as I have the tag of doc team
<mdke> well you know what i mean
<Burgundavia> http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=34049
<mdke> the docteam is not all us
<mdke> there are others
<Burgundavia> impressions matter
<mdke> true
<mdke> but I don't think there is a clear doc team policy regarding the forums
<mdke> look at all the effort henrik has made towards bridging the forum and wiki
<Burgundavia> the CoC stuff covers it
<mdke> what do you mean?
<Burgundavia> the code of conduct covers what not to do on the forums
<mdke> oh sure
<mdke> i meant, there is no anti-forum docteam vibe
<Burgundavia> having the thing on the side means that what I say has more weight
<mdke> i hate those damn things on the side :)
<mdke> except moderators, obviously they need em
<Burgundavia> ok, if this guy is involved in Debian and Koha, why isn't Koha packaged for Debian yet?
<Burgundavia> http://mjr.towers.org.uk/blog/2005-1.html#confapps0614
* mdke shrugs
<mdke> jsgotangco, pst in here
<jsgotangco> hey
<jsgotangco> yeah yeah
<jsgotangco> hehe
<jsgotangco> hows it going
<jsgotangco> wtf
<jsgotangco> http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1506514,00.html
<jsgotangco> stupid pilots
<mdke> i'm fine
<jsgotangco> judax, ping?
<jsgotangco> mdke, you busy or already about to sleep?
<mdke> jsgotangco, nearly sleep, why?
<mdke> hi FLeiXiuS 
<jsgotangco> mdke, regarding i18n of docteam docs
<jsgotangco> want to verify if its really going to be in rosetta
<FLeiXiuS> mdke, hey :-P
<mdke> jsgotangco, that's the idea
<mdke> why?
<mdke> got a better idea?
<jsgotangco> no i prefer rosetta
<mdke> ok cool
<jsgotangco> we're quite short on people so that's one thing we're going to cross off our list
<mdke> right i'm off to bed
<mdke> nearly 4 am
<mdke> :(
<jsgotangco> hmm
<jsgotangco> wait
<jsgotangco> you represent the italian team?
<jsgotangco> ???
<judax> jsgotangco: Hi I am here
<jsgotangco> hey
<judax> Hi
<judax> been lazy tonight, watching TV :)
<jsgotangco> ahhh so you're idle
<jsgotangco> do you want to take over the kquickguide?
<judax> sure, if you would like me to
<jsgotangco> judax, i don't mind i have to check the status of the other docs, kquickguide is almost done anyway
<judax> ok, sounds good
<jsgotangco> ok i won't do anything to the doc for now and just expect your patches
<jsgotangco> after the meeting, i'll request svn access for you
<judax> Ok, I will get it wrapped up
<judax> ok, thx
<jsgotangco> the patch is great btw, thanks
<jsgotangco> everything is happily validating
<judax> sorry bout the screens, that was stupid
<judax> good
<jsgotangco> nahh its ok
<jsgotangco> you did good
<judax> god
<judax> err good
<judax> there is a major section in Kynaptic book that needs to be finished too, Managing Packages
<jsgotangco> you reckon a kubuntu install guide would be nice?
<judax> yes
<judax> I see a lot of questions on the user lists and forums about installing it
<jsgotangco> it would be a nice document for sure
<judax> I agree
<jsgotangco> wait a bit i think that's a breezy goal
<jsgotangco> hold on
<judax> I read lots of posts from ubuntu installers wondering how to install kubuntu, will it bork my ubuntu, etc
<jsgotangco> http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/MigratingToUbuntu
<jsgotangco> "Finally, a one-page PDF should be produced that answers the most common questions about using the Ubuntu installer. This should be placed at the top level of the Ubuntu CDs so that people can find it and print it before starting installation. (During installation people will not have access to anything else on their computer, let alone the Internet.)"
<judax> looking at page
<jsgotangco> sounds good to me
<judax> agreed, the PDF should be there
<judax> you think PDF to cover both gnome and kde?
<jsgotangco> hmm
<jsgotangco> ubuntu should be ubuntu-specific and kubuntu, kubuntu-specific
<jsgotangco> but both are the same installers basically
<jsgotangco> hmm
<judax> true, but what is the target, do we confuse converts with DE talk or not?
<jsgotangco> i think we shouldn't. what do you think
<judax> my impression: ubuntu is THE philosophy, the DE is just the DE
<jsgotangco> i think the DE doesn't really matter
<jsgotangco> Kubuntu isn't shipped anyways, so people who get it know they're going to get KDE
<jsgotangco> (we can ask Riddell or amu though)
<judax> I could be wrong, but I considering my self to be running ubuntu even though I spend most of my time in kde
<judax> true
<judax> depdends on the line between the two projects
<judax> phone call, one sec
<jsgotangco> brb
<judax> back, sorry
<jsgotangco> its ok
<jsgotangco> i was just about to grab lunch
<judax> ok
<judax> gonna sleep
<jsgotangco> later man
<mpt> judax, jsgotangco: I recommend producing a separate PDF for Kubuntu
<jsgotangco> mpt, yup, that's the gameplan
<mpt> good good
<jsgotangco> mpt, good thing froud has one done already in svn before he left
<mpt> So he hasn't come back?
<jsgotangco> it would be crazy to have only one pdf install guide for both
<jsgotangco> nope
<mpt> What was he doing here the past couple of days, then?
<mpt> Just being a KDE advocate? :-)
<jsgotangco> wow he was here?
* mpt just finished reading scrollback
<jsgotangco> he doesn't even touch the svn lately
<mpt> yeah, 17~20 hours ago
<jsgotangco> interesting
<jsgotangco> oooh he did come in
<jsgotangco> oh well i guess he's coming back bit by bit
<jsgotangco> later guys
<mdke> hey all
* mdke rubs his hands
<mdke> new wiki is nearly ready i bet
<Seveas> good job
<mdke> yeah i can't wait
<mdke> hi silbs 
<mdke> welcome :)
<Kinnison> Good morning miss Silber
<silbs> mdke: thanks. was just popping in to keep an eye out for issues related to the wiki transition
<mdke> nice to meet you anyhow
<mdke> the wiki looks good
<SquishyWaffle> woohoo, Wiki looking good
<mdke> you bet
<mvirkkil> mdke: Did everything go well?
<mdke> i don't know
<mdke> looks good to me tho
<mvirkkil> and henrik is never here. 
<mvirkkil> He should really learn to use irc
<mdke> hi knows how
<mdke> he is on really frequently, but he is a busy man
<jjesse> henrik sent an email to the list that it was finished
<mvirkkil> what's his nickname?
<mvirkkil> jjesse: Yes, I read it.
<mdke> mvirkkil, hno73
<mvirkkil> k.
<mdke> email is better tho
<mvirkkil> Ahh, he's been here today too.
<mvirkkil> mdke: Yeah, if I had something worth writing about I'd mail him ;-)
<jjesse> it does look nice
<mvirkkil> I had an important server melt down on me during the weekend. 
<mdke> shit
<mvirkkil> mdke: You can say that again.
<mdke> shit
<mdke> backups?
<mvirkkil> mdke: :D It had been running smoothly for something like 5 years, and people have come and gone and tweaked it a bit.
<mvirkkil> So no one really knew how everything worked.
<mvirkkil> Now we do :)
<mvirkkil> Started from scratch and brought back the data from backups. Still some custom software that isn't working, but we'll probably re write it instead of trying to get it working :)
<mvirkkil> Since that part isn't critical, and the code looks like shit.
<mvirkkil> and it'
<mvirkkil> and it's perl.
<mdke> hmm
<mvirkkil> We (the two admins) don't like perl or php very much. Perl because it can be painful to read, and php because it's usually a pain to maintain.
<SquishyWaffle> mmm, I heart php
<mdke> sorry to hear about that mvirkkil 
<mdke> hopefully you will sort it
<SquishyWaffle> going to have a patch ready in a bit
<mdke> rebooting
<SquishyWaffle> frood
<froud> hey
<mdke> silbs, silb1, do you know if there will be rss feeds for the new wiki like with the old one?
<mdke> also the other thing I've noticed is that http://wiki.ubuntu.com redirects to test.wiki.ubuntu.com
<silb1> mdke: i'm not sure, will try to find out
<mdke> silb1, re the second thing: https://wiki.ubuntu.com is fine, only without the s it redirects to the test wiki
<SquishyWaffle> silb1: Good work, btw.
<SquishyWaffle> silb1: It's even faster than it was when i played with it earlier
<mdke> yeah its fast and the caching works, its great
<silb1> SquishyWaffle: kudos go to Henrik and mdke and others who led the charge on the moin stuff. This should be much faster than zwiki, and it should make the plone website side much faster as well.
<mdke> *grins*
<mdke> you know henrik handed in his thesis yesterday?
<SquishyWaffle> Busy guy :0
<mdke> he is unbelievable
<SquishyWaffle> Definitely cool, I actually feel motivated to do wiki work now that it's snappy like that :)
<mdke> yeah hopefully lots will
<mdke> hey henrik
<hno73> mdke: hey
<SquishyWaffle> Hello
<silb1> hno73: mdke had rss questions - can you help?
<mdke> yes
<mdke> do you know if there will be rss feeds for the new wiki like with the old one?
<hno73> silb1: I can look into it
<hno73> mdke: I'll ask the moin devs if it's available
<mdke> rock
<SquishyWaffle> hno73: So you guys have been doing a lot of this with close coordination with the moin team?
<mdke> fyi, the previous one was at http://ubuntulinux.org/wiki/pages_rss for new pages
<hno73> SquishyWaffle: yeah
<SquishyWaffle> That's good, it sounds like things worked out well for everyone.
<hno73> SquishyWaffle: Yes, I think they will draw some benefit as well
<mdke> hno73, the other thing was, http://wiki.ubuntu.com redirects to test.wiki.ubuntu.com, although https://wiki.ubuntu.com doesn't
<hno73> we've made that nice new transfer script and a new theme
<mdke> the theme is great btw
<hno73> mdke: yeah, that's a temporary issue to stop it going in loops apparently
<hno73> thanks it needs a bit more tweaking
<mdke> ok
<SquishyWaffle> hno73: Only suggestion I can see off the top of my head is the copyright text at the bottom and the links might be harder to read on dark monitors, but even that is only in rare situations and is very minor.
<hno73> Let me know if you guys have suggestions on how the layout can be improved
<mdke> we are totally chuffed right now about the speed and caching
<hno73> yeah, the fotter is still weak
<hno73> footer
<SquishyWaffle> it is unbelievably fast
<hno73> you can always change the theme in user prefs too
<mdke> oh that was one thing i wondered about.
<mdke> after logging in, it would be cool if it took you to the page you were viewing before, rather than user prefs
<mdke> dunno if that is poss.
<hno73> mdke: I agree. I'll look
<mdke> but it is not a massive issue because now after logging in, I stay logged in :DDDD
<hno73> yepp
<SquishyWaffle> I think that's available under user preferences
<SquishyWaffle> "Remember last page visited"
<mdke> ok i'll try that
<mdke> have we got the translations of the help pages somewhere?
<mdke> yes
* mdke answers own question
<mdke> hno73, another cool thing to investigate might be whether we have do hotkeys for things. for example Alt+E would go to /editform in zwiki
<mdke> whether we have do/whether we can have
<hno73> mdke: cool, will ask
<mdke> :)
<mdke> this is so awesome
<mdke> hno73, is it necessary to give the full url to link to talk pages, or to forum/hardware (e.g.)?
<hno73> mdke: no. Try ["./talk"] 
<mdke> great
<mdke> awesome
<mdke> ["/talk"]  did it
<mdke> thanks hno73 
<mdke> hno73, still around? i've noticed we've lost all the pics on the wiki too
<hno73> mdke: you mean those icons? Yeah, known bug, sorry. Looking into it
<mdke> lots of pics too
<hno73> What about screenshots, etc.?
<mdke> yeah
<hno73> really? Where were they?
<hno73> I mean where were they stored?
<mdke> they were at http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/nameofpic.png
<mdke> example is: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AddingRepositoriesHowto
<mdke> things like PicOpentheRepositoriesDialog
<hno73> How were they uploaded?
<hno73> As an attachment?
<mdke> there was a link which said "add image"
<mdke> then they were just linked as http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/PicOpentheRepositoriesDialog.png
<mdke> there is an (incomplete) old list of them here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WikiGardeningIcons
<hno73> OK, that linking still works, but the images went missing when we flipped over the URL
<hno73> thanks
<mdke> so i guess its just a question of moving over the images?
<hno73> The kicker is that they worked fine in the test wiki because then the URL still pointed to the old location ...
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> its the change of url
<hno73> yeah, finding first :) and then moving
<mdke> simon might be able to help you find em
<mdke> he used to rename them for me
<mdke> so he has access
<hno73> They'll be in our backup
<mdke> ok
<hno73> It might have to wait until Friday when our Plone expert is back
<hno73> I'll ask James too though
<mdke> kk
<mdke> thanks
<mdke> evening jdodson 
<jdodson> :) over here it is morning:)
<mdke> good morning
<jdodson> good evening.
<mdke> *laughs*
<mdke> nice to have you with us anyhow
<jdodson> its good to be around.
<jdodson> never a dull moment in he ubuntu-doc channel.
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> i read the scrollback from yesterday
<mdke> hope its sorted now
<jdodson> scrollback.  did not read that yet.
<mdke> well i read your conversation in here yesterday
<jdodson> right.  
<mdke> i hope the matter is now resolved
<jdodson> it is not, to my knowledge.
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> can i help at all?
<mdke> we are slightly concerned that there is this impression that documentation team members have a problem with the forum
<jdodson> i will respond in a minute, brb.
<mdke> sure
<jdodson> Ok, back.
<mdke> jdodson, hi
<jdodson> I hear that the docteam is cool with the forums, however they think we could do some things differently.  
<mdke> we are cool with the forums
<mdke> everything thinks people can do things different, in every sphere
<jdodson> Personally, its my goal to get information into the hands of people in the best way possible.  Do I know how that looks all the time, no, I do want to work with you guys to make information more accesable to people.
<jdodson> mdke: I have come to understand that.
<mdke> criticism is healthy if made in the right way
<jdodson> I agree.
<mdke> but, I am anxious to rule out any myth that there is a problem between the doc team and the forum
<mdke> i exchanged some PMs with ubuntu-geek yesterday to that effect
<jdodson> I hear that.  I have begun to expell it from my mind:)
<mdke> i hope he will make them public on that thread so that any further doubt can be ruled out
<jdodson> Really, the reason why I came to chat with the team yesterday was because of that.
<jdodson> That and the rep thing.
<jjesse> is this the whole rating forum posters things?
<jdodson> But it was mainly so we can be friends.
<jdodson> yeah.
<mdke> jdodson, I am sure we can
<mdke> but also we can help each other
<jdodson> mdke: I agree.
<mdke> a good example is the interaction already beginning to take place between the forum and the wiki
<jdodson> Yeah, azz has spearheaded a lot of that.
<mdke> yes
<mdke> and henrik from this side
<jdodson> Oh, cool:) thanks henrik.
<jjesse> why do i have "why cant we be friends" going thru my head right now
<mdke> i don't know
<jdodson> HA! Because, its a hit song.
<mdke> i don't know it
<mdke> anyway jdodson we are glad to see lots of forum people in here
<jdodson> :)
<jdodson> *group hug*
<mdke> i really hope ubuntu-geek will make our conversation public so it is clear that the thread from yesterday is all fine
<mdke> jdodson, he seemed to have the impression that docteam members do not like the forums, it is not the case
<SquishyWaffle> Yes, he definitely came in here guns ablaze
<jjesse> big times gun blazing 
<jdodson> well i am not here to address ubuntu geek and what he did or did not do.  i am here to personally, build community.
<jdodson> And I am also here to say, I hear you guys about being cool with us, and I am cool with you guys.
<jdodson> personally of course.
<jdodson> So I am speaking for myself.
<mdke> Be RiGhT bAcK
<mdke> jdodson, i for one appreciate what you have said
<mdke> and i am happy if everything is now cool
<jdodson> With me, things are cool:)
<mdke> jdodson, btw how does the post counting thing under the username work? is it how many posts or how many different threads?
<mdke> out of interest
<jdodson> to my knowledge, its post count only.
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> my username has a small bug
<mdke> it can't count ;)
<jdodson> HA!
<jdodson> really? 
<jdodson> wow.
<jdodson> mention that in the ubuntu-site-discussion area, so it gets more visibility.
<mdke> ;)
<jdodson> it might effect more people than just you.
<mdke> ok i'll have a look
<jdodson> cool.
<mdke> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=214371
<SquishyWaffle> remind me not to download the entire Ubuntu mirrors
<SquishyWaffle> if I ever get the inclination again :)
<mdke> ok
<jdodson> HA!
* mdke makes mental note
<jdodson> when, tommorow or next week.
<jdodson> :)
<SquishyWaffle> whenever I can sneak this by the tech guys without them noticing 15 gigs coming down their pipe in an hour or two :)
<mdke> you're going to set up a local mirror?
<SquishyWaffle> yeah, we need one on campus
<jjesse> grumble grumble, file server was down to 3mb
<jjesse> seems like senior management decided to store 5.4 gb of mp3s for them to listen to when in on the weekend
<philipacamaniac> where can I file bug reports related to the new wiki?
<philipacamaniac> I have found a few small, but potentially devastating UI problems... other than that I really like it
<mdke> philipacamaniac, you have to give it a chance for some things: it is not yet finished
<mdke> what are the problems?
<philipacamaniac> problem 1: the "category" views at the top, that show some level of heirarchy, are really screwy... they seem to shift around
<mdke> at the top?
<philipacamaniac> yes
<mdke> there is no heirarchy
<mdke> at the top you should have the four most recently visited pages
<philipacamaniac> Oh, I see. Okay, that makes sense, but they do LOOK like a heirarchy. Good, one down.
<mdke> yeah i know what you mean
<mdke> they are similar to the heirarchy thing in the old wiki
<philipacamaniac> yep. Next is, with the default theme, the hover color for links in the footer is the same as the footer background.
<philipacamaniac> They just disappear :)
<mdke> good point
<mdke> i think the footer is still being worked on
<philipacamaniac> ok, good. Last one: when the pages were imported, their pagenames (e.g. PhilipCain) were imported as a page name and as a header
<philipacamaniac> And since the page title is shown anyway, it makes for a lot of doubled titles
<mdke> that is true
<mdke> you can edit that if you don't like it
<mdke> click edit, and remove "= PhilipCain =" from the first line of the doc
<philipacamaniac> Yeah, I know, but it means old neglected pages need to be edited, too. Other than that, I love the new wiki, especially the search box (and the speed of the search).
<mdke> yeah we love it too
<mdke> the speed is the main thing :D
<mdke> and the login cache
<philipacamaniac> seriously... it is a big improvement
* mdke nods
<philipacamaniac> For the recently viewed page header, maybe don't use >> as the separator
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> ok maybe its a good idea to post those last two ideas to the doc list
<mdke> that way you will get a response from the webmaster
<philipacamaniac> what's the address
<mdke> http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-doc
<philipacamaniac> thanks
<mdke> thank you
<philipacamaniac> would that be better/more appropriate than filing bugs?
<mdke> difficult to say
<mdke> i'm still not 100% sure that the webmaster checks bugs
<philipacamaniac> I'll just send to the list first and see what comes of it
<mdke> he checks the list alright
#ubuntu-doc 2005-06-23
<jsgotangco> jeffsch, hi
<jeffsch> hello
* mpt tries not to fall asleep again
<jsgotangco> hmmm its only past lunch :P
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, ping?
<Burgundavia> salut
<jsgotangco> have you seen froud lately?
<Burgundavia> he was in here last night I think
<jsgotangco> ahh he's been editing some wiki entries a few minutes ago
<jsgotangco> hmm i still like mediawiki
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> the history feature on the new wiki also sucks
<jsgotangco> i agree
<Burgundavia> and mediawiki also more power of making pages look pretty
<jsgotangco> why do i have this feeling it just became more complicated
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, i always steal wiki code from wikipedia heh
<Burgundavia> mediawiki is PHP
<jsgotangco> even so, its one of the few PHP apps worth using
<jsgotangco> (heck i use it in this laptop for myself)
<jsgotangco> froud, hi
<froud> hi jsgotangco 
<froud> nice one on edubuntu dude, what's the plan
<jsgotangco> froud, up in the air, but i just copied what you did on the kde/gnome thing
<froud> have to chatted with the ppl at edu
<jsgotangco> froud, yes, they are ok with it
<jsgotangco> froud, what are you plans
<froud> cool so they all know they should look to do their docs in svn
<jsgotangco> there was one guy who wanted to do the stuff in moin, but i told him its still WIP while its not possible, we stick to svn
<froud> mt plans are to wait and see what happens at the meeting
<froud> I may/may not come to the meeting its at 2AM my time right
<jsgotangco> ok
<froud> but I dont think I will have much to say
<froud> I want everyone else to decide on direction, that way I am not in the firing line later
<jsgotangco> froud, will the forrest/lenya thing work in a virtual server like linode
<froud> you need to run a tomcat
<froud> I have no idea if it will work on a vserver
<froud> I think it will messup the other servers
<jsgotangco> (should investigate)
<froud> he he, you can if you like
<froud> but look at doc
<froud> doco
<froud> that is more or less the idea
<jsgotangco> hmmm a virtual dedicated server
<jsgotangco> doco?
<jsgotangco> have you talked to greg taylor and troy williams, they are very good contributors at the moment
<froud> http://wiki.apache.org/cocoon/Doco
<froud> I have arrange greg to be a committer
<froud> what is troy's nic
<jsgotangco> i think its judax
<froud> hav enot met him yet
<froud> will chat when I see him
<jsgotangco> (doco looks complicated)
<froud> you and mpt speaking about install guide
<froud> what's cooking there
<jsgotangco> there's a breezy plan to have at least an install guide in PDF in the CD that people can print out
<jsgotangco> because during install, most people won't be connectedto the net
<mpt> This is all my BrainDump, it hasn't been approved yet :-)
<froud> well you know there is an install guide
<mpt> my DraftSpecification, rather
<mpt> though sabdfl seemed to like it
<mpt> http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/MigratingToUbuntu
<jsgotangco> since we don't have a printed manual to begin with
<mpt> also mentioned in http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpfulHelp
<froud> mpt, install guide for kubuntu is in svn you need just add ubuntu screenshot you req specs and you have an install guide for ubuntu
<froud> need first screen boot:
<froud> https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/trunk/generic/instalguide/C
<jsgotangco>  I am Patience Alex, the only daughter of late Mr. and Mrs. Alex. My father was a very wealthy cocoa merchant in South Africa; my father was poisoned to death by his business associates on one of their outings on a business trip.
<jsgotangco> whoa
<jsgotangco> ZA conspiracy!
<mpt> Poisoned by fake cocoa
<froud> whoa scam
<froud> there must be a million of those scam stories
<froud> mpt: you may want to contribute to the install guide
<mpt> I've only ever installed Ubuntu once, it was Hoary, sabdfl was helping, and I was hallucinating at the time
<mpt> I am REALLY not the best person to contribute to the install guide at the moment :-)
<froud> mpt: it is structured differently to most install guides
<froud> the first part deals with the default workstation install
<froud> and branches into more complicated sections
<froud> it is very graphic
<froud> hallucinating?
<mpt> yeah, I hadn't slept for about 36 hours or so
<froud> judax: hello
<mpt> I'll try to have a crack at the installation guide based on a Colony ISO when I'm in Brazil
<froud> Colony ISO?
<jsgotangco> Brazil?
<jsgotangco> froud, Colony is the milestone cd for breezy
<jsgotangco> just like Sounder and Array
<jsgotangco> from previous releases
<froud> ok, when is colony
<mpt> Colony-1 is out already
<mpt> but afaik, there are major changes due to happen to the installer
<mpt> such as, it becoming graphical
<mpt> I'm going to Brazil next month and working from there for three months or five
<jsgotangco> wow
<jsgotangco> Like most men, Im a huge fan of big and juicy melons  the firmer and fruitier the better.
<jsgotangco> http://www.wordpress.tokyotimes.org/index.php?p=568
<froud> mpt: updating install guide for graphic install will not be a problem
<froud> btw, has colony 1 already got the gui
<jsgotangco> afaik, its basically the same thing with hoary, not much to look at
<jsgotangco> but the new stuff is quite interesting
<froud> so I dunno, is or is there not a gui on colony 1
<froud> by gui are we speaking about something like the suse installation
<froud> yast
<mpt> froud: http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/GraphicalInstaller
<jsgotangco> hi
<mdke> morning
<mdke> sup?
<jsgotangco> nothing much how about you
<mdke> ditto
<mdke> "hack the source" ;)
<jsgotangco> then get working on those docs
<jsgotangco> hah
<jsgotangco> come on give me a break, i want it to be lively
<jsgotangco> our ml has been so quiet
<mdke> i was inspired
<jsgotangco> ill take that as a compliment
<jsgotangco> complement
<jsgotangco> hmm
<jsgotangco> whats correct
<mdke> the first one
<mdke> but I will never feel totally confortable about using the words "hack" and "source" when talking about docs
<jsgotangco> well xml is source
<mdke> i sposee
<jsgotangco> im gonna do other stuff for now
<jsgotangco> kquickguide is as good as done with those two new contributors
<mdke> yep
<mdke> have you seen sean today?
<mdke> he wanted to talk to you about the installguide i think
<jsgotangco> yes
<mdke> cool
<jsgotangco> well lets hope 4 the best later
<mdke> sure
<mdke> i'll be back this evening for the meeting
<mdke> gtg now
<mvirkkil> Who has made the theme for the new wiki?
<mvirkkil> never mind. It was my own mistake.
<mdke> henrik
<jsgotangco> i should sleep early :-)
<jsgotangco> oh well see you guys later then
<jjesse> morning squishywaffle
<jjesse> :)
<SquishyWaffle> Greetings, jjesse
<sivang> wheeee! have we finally switched back to min?
<sivang> moin, even
<froud> jjesse: you there
<froud> jjesse: what did you say about documentation, how a distro will be judge by the quality of its documentation?
<froud> jjesse: I know I saw you say it in the list, but for lif eof me I can't find it :-)
<sigurdga> There is a really bad translation error on the wiki for norwegian bokml, and the translation is not done in rosetta. Does anyone know how to get rid of the misspelling (and how I can proofread the rest of the translation)?
<froud> sigurdga: guess you need to edit the norwegian bokml wiki
<froud> sigurdga: our docs go through rosetta, but not everybody uses our method
<sigurdga> froud: it is the title of one of the search buttons, the title-button
<sigurdga> not the documentation itself
<judax> Greetings
<jjesse> greetings judax
<judax> HI
<jjesse> welcome back froud
<froud> I aint back I'm just visiting :-)
<judax> froud: Hello
<jjesse> grin fine welcome visitor
<froud> hello judax 
<froud> judax: seen you have been busy giving patches, thanks for all your work
<judax> np, glad I can help out.  it is fun
<froud> so tell us about yourself
<judax> ah, live in Austin, TX.  Am an Infrastrucutre Manager (manage unix, vms, storage, oracle, nt, technical teams)
<froud> what do you do when you are not creating patches for ubuntu-docs
<froud> wow busy
<judax> hehe, too busy sometimes
<jjesse> that sounds more interesting then me :)
<jjesse> i'm just a network adminstrator for a bank
<judax> kind of a pain most of the time, don't get to do any technical stuff anymore, just go to meetings
<froud> judax:  do any of your systems run ubuntu/kubuntu?
<judax> and get yelled at
<jjesse> just my desktop runs kubuntu
<jjesse> i have one debian box that runs helpdesk software first use of *nix in the bank
<judax> no, linux is making an apperance in some of our datacenters at client request, but we have support issues
<froud> judax: what type of issues
<judax> we have SLAs with the clients, so we need to be able to tie that to a support contract from somebody
<judax> usually end up with the red hat enterprise
<froud> what about canonical
<judax> it is possible
<froud> so what makes you intereste din doing docs
<judax> work for large corp, so all that has to become part of the LTM (technology model), but linux adoption is moving much slower than I would like
<froud> and that is why you are contributing to the docs
<judax> I have not had the chance to write code for quite a few years and I want to help with free software, so docs are kind of what I can help with
<froud> cool
<froud> would you like to get more involved here at ubuntu-doc
<judax> plus, I see a great need in documentation, especially if you are tageting wide-scale adoption
<froud> agreed :-)
<judax> you bet
<froud> that is something everyone here does agree on
<froud> what would you like to work on for breezy?
<judax> I really don't have a *must* work on project.  I would like to help where it is needed, whatever that might be
<froud> kde or gnome your pref
<judax> I have had a linux box on my desk for a long time (prob 1995 with Caldera OpenLinux first)
<judax> I tend to gravitate to KDE
<judax> I always come back to KDE, just like it better
<judax> sucker for eye-candy I guess :)
<froud> Ok you will find that you need a kubuntu box to write against
<froud> judax: yes, I agree kde is way ahead of the kurve
<froud> you already seem to know what to do with docbook
<froud> I guess you already have a checkout of our svn repos
<judax> not a docbook expert, just using existing docs as examples, learning as I go
<jjesse> isn't that the best way to go?
<judax> aye
<froud> that's ok
<jjesse> i just muddle my way through
<judax> me too
<froud> with some help from your freinds
<judax> is that a song?
<froud> yeah a baby let's make music
* froud slaps himself
<judax> hehe
<froud> Ok you have been introduced to the kwick guide
<froud> there is also a user guide
<froud> and admin guide
<froud> they are very new
<judax> I have looked at those briefly
<froud> you are like totally empowered to make of them what you will
<froud> there is also a generic install guide
<judax> ok
<judax> I read that last night
<froud> everything needs work here
<froud> the project is young
<judax> yes, but seems pretty active which is encouraging
<froud> I would like to get you a commit account, can you manage that
<judax> sure
<froud> ok I need you to send me your public pgp key
<judax> ok
<froud> sean@inwords.co.za
<froud> I will send this to enrico with a message that I back your account. he will make sure that elmo creates the account for you
<froud> Oh enrico is here
<judax> public key on its way
<froud> lets ask him
<froud> enrico: 
<froud> enrico: ping
<froud> ok he is probably busy
<judax> ok
<froud> I will forward it. 
<froud> Enrico will normall cc you in his message to elmo
<froud> welcome to the team
<judax> great, thx much
* froud goes to write message to enrico 
<jjesse> froud can i send you my pbulic key as well?
<jjesse> man i can't type today :(
<froud> jjesse: you should have done so long ago, so ye
<jjesse> grin on its way
<froud> thanks
<froud> judax: sent
<froud> jjesse: sent
<judax> Thx much
<abelli> froud: ma que pasa?
<judax> have a meeting, afk for a bit
<froud> abelli: en pls
<abelli> froud: actually .. i dont know if its correct .. im in bkl ..
<abelli> but it should mean something like "how are you doing"?
<froud> good man and how r you
<froud> how's mama and papa
<abelli> froud: en pls.
<abelli> mamma e papa' .. il papa e' a roma.
<froud> abelli when will you make it easy for me to have a conversation with you
<abelli> the right way is in you, brother.
<froud> oh god here we go again
<froud> :-)
<abelli> how are you all doing?
<froud> we're fine abelli 
<froud> what have you been doing lately
<froud> have not seen you around
<froud> exams?
<abelli> yes.
<abelli> lots.
<abelli> and lots.
<abelli> and some more lots.
<froud> ouch
<froud> hope you did well
<abelli> actually yes .. but the way is long.
<froud> ah yes the penalty of youth
<froud> exams
<abelli> .. someone bless them.
<abelli> i think its easier having to pass exams than living life.
<froud> nah I never do well at exams
<froud> life, now that is no problem
<froud> just live it!
<abelli> well ive been forced to do so for 20 yrs ..
<froud> it gets easier
<abelli> ill be so for the next 60+ yrs. or at least i hope so.
* froud has vsion of abelli the 80-year old Linu xuser
<abelli> na na na .. mach or plan9. thx.
<abelli> alternative (like current).
<judax> back
<froud> abelli: I can imagine you with your grandchildren saying, "my bambino's, when I was young we were freedom fights of  the free software movement."
<abelli> froud: what are you telling them?
<froud> and then you will bring out your collection of linux dvd's from the early 2000's
<froud> just teasing dude
<abelli> dvds?
<abelli> well if you could send me a signature ..
<abelli> that is going to be something to show.
<mpt> http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpfulHelp is finishedddddddddd
<abelli> what kind of dvds?
<abelli> mpt: bless you.
* mpt collapses in a heap
<mpt> see y'all in 3.74 hours :-)
<abelli> did they give any gold medal?
<enrico> froud: pong
<froud> enrico: ping
<froud> enrico: it's all in your mail
<enrico> froud: ok,I'll get to it
<froud> thanks dude, what would life be without you
<abelli> buona serata
<SquishyWaffle> that illustration rocks my world
<froud> what illustration the one from mpt?
<SquishyWaffle> yeah: http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpfulHelp?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=helpsystem.jpg
<gtaylor> wow this nick isn't taken
<froud> easy to type also
<enrico> gtaylor: register it!
<GregTaylor> did, getting gregTaylor too just in case :)
<froud> I think mpt's help system will need a totally different approach to the writing
<gtaylor> Removing of the left index is a big change
<enrico> froud: preferred usernames for troy and jesse?
<froud> though I like the diff between packaged help and help.u.c
<froud> judax: ping
<judax> froud: pong
<froud> jjesse has left the building
<froud> judax: speak to enrico 
<judax> oh, sorry
<gtaylor> SVN stuff?
<froud> enrico: for jjesse just use jjesse I think, dont think  he will mind
<judax> enrico: troywill1
<enrico> judax: wow.  Are you sure you want it so complicated? :)
<froud> enrico: or email him
<judax> enrico: if not a problem, it is an old standard for me, doesn't really matter though
<froud> enrico: ask almo for a report on how many commit accounts we have
<judax> any will do
<enrico> judax: no problem at all.  I was just making sure you aren't being shy :)
<judax> enrico: hehe, nah, just easy for my tired brain to remember
* enrico sent out the mail
<froud> enrico: do you have ssh to that host?
<judax> enrico: many thanks
<enrico> froud: to what host?
<enrico> judax: no problem!
<froud> the one running svn
<enrico> froud: no.  I don't have ssh to any Canonical machine
<froud> Hmm
<froud> ok
<froud> gtaylor: elmo is slow at creating accounts
<froud> if you dont have something by mid next week pong enrico or me 
<froud> and we will chas ehim
<froud> beat him with a stick
<enrico> :)
<froud> enrico: how many committers do we have now
<froud> with judax and gtaylor we should have made up the 35% extra we need to achieve breezy targets
<enrico> froud: do idea
<mdke> evening
<froud> evening
<mdke> froud, you're back?
<froud> just visiting
<judax> mdke: hi
<mdke> hi judax 
<mdke> froud, staying around later?
<froud> 2AM may be late
<mdke> guess
<mdke> so
<froud> I am right about the time, no?
<froud> what time is it there now
<judax> let me guess 1747
<judax> err 19
<mdke> 19.46
<mdke> date -u gives you the time in UTC
<froud> 20:39 here
<judax> good, got a UTC clock on a world band radio, just making sure I have it set right
<judax> hate the time charts on the internet
<mdke> so it will be midnight your time froud 
<froud> Thu Jun 16 20:40:26 SAST 2005
<froud> Thu Jun 16 18:40:35 UTC 2005
<mdke> your clock is out a bit tho
<froud> darn ntp
<mdke> ;)
<mdke> unless mine is
<judax> no I have 1849 UTC
<froud> mdke: I will see if I can stay awake
<froud> mdke: but  the main thing is you guys resolve issues
<froud> by my mature, when I am involved I tend to direct things, and I think you guys need to start doing that :-)
<froud> s/mature/nature
<mdke> i'm easy about this
<froud> mdke: I would like to see it work so that the loss of anyone, for whatever reason, will see the team continue to function
<froud> hence my previous stressing of low overhead methods
<froud> and automation
<froud> of everything
<froud> mdke: you're just easy ;-)
<froud> especially after a few n browns
* mdke nods
<froud> anyone got any useful /exec scripts for konversation
<froud> things you can actually use on IRC
<mdke> for doing what?
<froud> dunno, konversation has this great feature
<froud> but I am trying to understand why
<froud> what for
<froud>  20:49:27 up  8:15,  1 user,  load average: 0.10, 0.05, 0.01
<froud> hmm
<mdke> you can use /exec -o to post the output of commands
<froud> but is that not the same as /exec cmd foo
<mdke> erm
<mdke> lemme try
<mdke>  19:59:06 up 17:23,  1 user,  load average: 0.46, 0.37, 0.26
<mdke> no
<mdke> /exec on its own doesn't post the command to the chan
<mdke> command/output
<froud> Qt: 3.3.3
<froud> KDE: 3.4.1
<froud> kde-config: 1.0
<froud> that is the output of /exec kdeversion
<froud> Linux zulu 2.6.10-5-386 #1 Tue Jun 7 08:26:42 UTC 2005 i686 GNU/Linux
<froud> cmd script is useful
<froud> seems you can write your own scripts
<froud> example from help
<froud> #!/bin/sh
<froud> # Executes a command and prints the output into Konversation.
<froud> PORT=$1;
<froud> SERVER=$2;
<froud> TARGET=$3;
<froud> shift;shift;shift;
<froud> $@ | while read line; do dcop $PORT Konversation say $SERVER "$TARGET" "$@: $line"; done
<froud> cool
<froud> searc google in konversation
<froud> Uptime: 9 hours and 38 minutes
<froud> hmm
<judax> froud: you got it all figured out yet?
<froud> yeah cool
<froud> DCOP is amzing
<froud> and google web services
<froud> what do you want to search on google
<froud> just do it in konversation
<froud> example output
<froud> [DCOP]  Searching Google for ubuntu ...
<froud> [21:50]  [DCOP]  Results 1-5 of about 472000 for ubuntu (0.053592 seconds)
<froud> [21:50]  [DCOP]  http://www.ubuntulinux.org/ (Ubuntu - Linux for Human Beings)
<froud> [21:50]  [DCOP]  http://www.ubuntulinux.org/download/ (Ubuntu - Download)
<froud> [21:50]  [DCOP]  http://ubuntulinux.org/ (Ubuntu - Linux for Human Beings)
<froud> [21:50]  [DCOP]  http://www.ubuntu.org/ (UBUNTU - World Forum of Networks)
<froud> [21:50]  [DCOP]  http://ubuntu.upc.es/ (UBUNTU - World Forum of Networks)
<judax> haha, that is sweet
<froud> only I see it
<froud> well the google search
<froud> also accepts search criteria via the wdsl api
<judax> is that the script from help or did you write that one?
<froud> s/wdsl/wsdl
<froud> no that is installed in /usr/share/apps/konversation/scripts/
<judax> ah ok
<froud> but there are a few examples so it is easy to follow
<froud> you can use any scripting language
<froud> way cool
<froud> could be useful for FAQs
<froud> like a bot, just not as anoying
<judax> going to look through some of the scripts
<froud> to use the google script you need a googlekey
<froud> you get 1000 queries a day
<judax> ok
<froud> put the google key in your ~/.googlekey
<froud> key is created here http://api.google.com/createkey
<judax> ah, thx
<froud> http://www.google.com/apis/reference.html#searchrequest
<gtaylor> elmo is in #kubuntu-devel btw
<mdke> ?
<mdke> he is always there no?
* gtaylor thought someone was looking for him earlier
<mdke> ah
<froud> you can find him, but you cant get him to do what you want hime to
<gtaylor> ahh, heh
<mdke> he needs to confirm additions to the svn access list
<mdke> thats why it can take some time
<gtaylor> maybe someone should send him brownies
<mdke> i'm sure he would appreciate that
<mdke> me too!
<froud> dudes kde is amazing I just keep discovering new things
<gtaylor> yup, I re-arranged the bejesus out of my laptop's desktop
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> this kde business is getting out of control
<gtaylor> taskbar is on the bottom, menus and shortcuts at the top and some room for applets
<gtaylor> kde is hawt
<Burgundavia> bah
<mdke> morning jdub 
<Burgundavia> gnome is where it is at
* mdke high fives Burgundavia 
<mdke> you bet
<froud> gtaylor: you seen those ioslaves yet
<gtaylor> mmmm
<froud> and hows that imap:// in konqueror
<mdke> blah blah
<gtaylor> heh, the list is quite large
<froud> there are so many kioslave tasks
<gtaylor> I was just fish://'ing myself
<froud> yeah SSH just changes
<gtaylor> of course man:/ is handy too
<froud> try applications://
<mdke> this is just silly now
<froud> mdke: jealeous
<mdke> oh totally
<gtaylor> neato
* mdke enters irc:// in nautilus
* gtaylor is looking at irc through Kopete :)
<froud> dude nautilus is like so dead
<mdke> hmm
<Burgundavia> thunar is very nice
<mdke> nautilus is great
<gtaylor> not to mention it's the name of that workout thing that guy is always advertising on TV
<Burgundavia> hope it exits the vapourware stage soon
<froud> can nautilus gve a terminal emulator
<gtaylor> can Nautilus make me dinner?
<mdke> it is a file manager
<mdke> it doesn't do silly unnecessary things
<mdke> that could be better spent fixing bugs and making it better
<gtaylor> proper nutrition isn't silly
<mdke> gtaylor, you have a cook to make you dinner
<gtaylor> she's an hour away :(
<mdke> nautilus will manage your files
<gtaylor> laundry would be nice too...I'll have to file a feature request
<froud> gtaylor: did you know you can call any programs help by just saying help:foo
* mdke prefers programs that do one thing well rather than loads of things sloppily
<gtaylor> as a matter o' fact I did, froud! How convenient :)
<mdke> hmm
* gtaylor just got a batch of official Kubuntu CDs today to show off
<froud> see what you mean with the man:su
<froud> cool
<gtaylor> it's all hilighted and stuff
<gtaylor> man page reading made fun! (not really)
<froud> that mac ioslave is a good idea
<gtaylor> mac ioslave?
<gtaylor> ahh, weird
<gtaylor> I'm not a mac guy, never used that stuff
<froud> type mailto:sean@inwords.co.za and spawn kmail composer
<froud> omg
<gtaylor> heh
<froud> that makes life easy
<gtaylor> if you use KMail :)
<froud> I use the whole of kontact
<gtaylor> do you use firefox or konqueror
<gtaylor> ?
<froud> mostly firefox
<froud> but I dont stop konqueror if needed
<froud> to me its what ever opens and works right then
<gtaylor> It'd be so awesome if they fixed some of the funkiness with page rendering in Knoqueror
<gtaylor> firefox is nice but it's so slow to load
<froud> if konqueror is open and I just need a quick thing then I just let it role rather than wait for FF
<froud> for long browsing sessions I will load FF
<gtaylor> yeah
<gtaylor> gimme a minute to upload this, I have something neat :)
<froud> but I like the factthat konqueror can be everything and the Kitchen sink
<froud> OK
<froud> fish is just so cool
<gtaylor> albeit a funky name :)
<froud> irc:// spawns konversation
<froud> pass the server and it connect to the server
<froud> did you upload the cool thing?
<froud> gtaylor: hav eyou used kolab
<gtaylor> http://squishywaffle.com/gallery/albums/Misc/dscf0551.sized.jpg
<gtaylor> no, what's kolab?
<froud> http://kolab.org/
<gtaylor> that's pretty neat
<froud> yeah use kontact on the road
<gtaylor> blargh, I just realized that my windows workstation is visible on the left, ruins the Linux atmosphere
<gtaylor> My linux box here is pretty sweet here too
<froud> still loading its slow
<gtaylor> it's a big file :0
<gtaylor> well nm, 80k
<froud> yeah and I am in africa so ittakes long
<gtaylor> shoot, that'd do it
<froud> now using wget
<judax> gtaylor: I tried to load it too, not working
<gtaylor> well crap
<froud> Resolving squishywaffle.com... failed: Host not found.
<gtaylor> try it like this: http://squishywaffle.com/gallery/Misc/dscf0551
<gtaylor> oh, that's not good
<gtaylor> How about this: http://clemsonlinux.org/~gtaylor/gallery/albums/Misc/dscf0551.sized.jpg
<judax> same
<judax> that works
<gtaylor> phew
<gtaylor> no idea why it's bombing like that
<froud> Ok
<gtaylor> your DNS server must not like ZoneEdit :)
<froud> Oh nice sleeve
<gtaylor> yeah, I do like it
<judax> very good looking sleeve
<gtaylor> keeping one for myself and handing the rest out tonight
<judax> you can't really tell that is a windows box running in the corner there
<froud> how did you get them?
<froud> shipit?
<gtaylor> Riddell is sending them out in small quantities on his own
<froud> poor riddle
<froud> and that is a serious spindle of blanks
<gtaylor> We have a whole closet full of CD-RW/DVD-R's here :)
<gtaylor> go through media like mad, GIS Images are massive
<judax> GIS?
<froud> GIS geographic information systems
<judax> ah, is that like remote sensing and the like?
<gtaylor> indeed
<judax> wonder if I can say 'like' again
<froud> yeak pretty huge
<gtaylor> We can justifiably run a lab of 95% Kubuntu machines :0
<froud> cooooool kde rocks
<gtaylor> There are no real competitors to ArcGIS which only runs on Windows, so we have to have a few Windows boxes for that purpose. All development of sensor networks is done on Ubuntu
<froud> and kubuntu flies
<gtaylor> Last Fedora box was dropped a few weeks ago :)
<froud> yay!!!
<froud> I want to move my main worstation from SuSE to Kubuntu this weekend
<gtaylor> SuSe is rock solid too, we run that on our servers
<froud> but I must backup a ~/ of 207 GB
<judax> that will take a while
<gtaylor> crap
<froud> yeah dread
<gtaylor> lots of porn?
<froud> trying to clean out stuff
<judax> haha
<froud> actually its a lot of vendor drops
<froud> documents in docbook from almost every FOSS project on the planet
<froud> its the screen capts that take the space
<froud> geeze I wish we had a way to do screen shots and save them as XML
<gtaylor> screenshots, fun
<Burgundavia> SVG screenshots?
<froud> this guy from Linspire, Michael Robertson is pretty focused
<froud> Burgundavia: yeah
<froud> you got a way?
<Burgundavia> he also thinks that running as root is a sane default
<Burgundavia> no, I don't have a way
<froud> yeah I am just looking at the artilce in LXF
<froud> nice SVN article
<Seveas> froud, base64 encoded screenshots in xml take up even more space :)
<froud> Seveas: really, how do you take them can convertthem?
<froud> can the be zipped
<Seveas> zip+base64 = original size :)
<froud> like OOo writer files
<froud> argh
<froud> Ok dudes later
<froud> must go to bobo land
<froud> somebody log the meeeting and post it to me
<froud> its in 2 hours and 40 min from now, right mdke 
<mdke> what is?
<mdke> froud ^
<gtaylor> I thought it was in 10 minutes?
<judax> meeting in 10 mins
<squinn> yep it is
<mdke> yes
<squinn> i'm new to the #ubuntu-doc channel
<froud> 10 mins
<gtaylor> I about peed my pants for a minute there
<squinn> and project in general
<mdke> squinn, welcome
<squinn> so i hope i'm alright here
<froud> ok mov eto bed and stay awake
<mdke> everyone is alright here
<squinn> i worked for a bit on #gentoo-doc
<mdke> cool
<squinn> but i realize ubuntu's really the best distro for me
<froud> we doing it in the meeting rrom
<mdke> i went into #gentoo-doc just earlier to look for ideas
<mdke> froud, yes
<froud> squinn: welcome dude
<mdke> froud said "we"
<mdke> :)
<froud> we we 
<squinn> oy oy.
<squinn> lol
<froud> I need to the gents
<gtaylor> howdy
<squinn> yeah, but #gentoo-doc's a nice chan
<squinn> hi gtaylor
<mdke> squinn, they were very nice, I'm gonna go away and have a look at their pages to get some ideas
<squinn> mdke: yeah. but they use guidexml i believe
<squinn> we use docbook right?
<mdke> yes
<gtaylor> I was thinking, would it cool to have a place that downloads the latest svn hourly and builds the guides in html for public viewing?
<gtaylor> or do we already have that?
<Burgundavia> daily is probably enough
<mdke> gtaylor, we should yes
<Burgundavia> the svn repo doesn't change that much
<gtaylor> I could get this done pretty easily
<gtaylor> Burgundavio: Once I get svn access it will :)
<mdke> gtaylor, the infrastructure is there, I don't think it will be a problem
<froud> that is what docteam.ubuntu.com is for
<froud> or planned so
<gtaylor> any word on it?
<mdke> froud, planned by who?
<froud> discusse din the list
<squinn> svn?!
<mdke> yes
<mdke> squinn, we have some pages on the wiki, you can get lots of info there about the team
<mdke> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam
<squinn> ok ty
<gtaylor> did we have a listing of docteam members somewhere? I was looking but couldn't find it
<mdke> gtaylor, not to my knowledge
<mdke> gtaylor, except in svn
<gtaylor> guess it's not a big deal
<squinn> it sounds like cvs access in gentoo
<squinn> <3 chatzilla
<gtaylor> svn is a replacement for cvs basically
<squinn> ah okay
<gtaylor> lots of similarities
<squinn> well i'm over friends house in windows
<gtaylor> I'm sorry :)
<mdke> squinn, the repo is http: anyhow, you can have a look
<squinn> lol gtaylor and okay mdke 
<gtaylor> I'm about to kill this CD burner, k3b is not liking it :)
<froud> mdke: who is leading the meeting
<mdke> no idea
#ubuntu-doc 2005-06-24
* jgotangco curses bad dsl
<mdke> jsgotangco, PM
<jgotangco> yes
<jsgotangco> why do i have the feeling this release is going to be terribly chaotic on our side
<Burgundavia> of course not
<jsgotangco> i like to panic
<jsgotangco> (must be because of the tea i drank this morning)
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> don't panic
<mdke> jsgotangco, you need to chill man!
<mdke> the discussion is going well IMO
<jsgotangco> yep
<jsgotangco> hehe
<jsgotangco> you know me
<mdke> you'll have to take some sedatives if you're gonna be our secretary ;)
* mdke administers them to jsgotangco forcefully
<jsgotangco> i look panicky in irc, but im so composed personally
<jsgotangco> (at least the yelp frontpage issue has been recognized)
<mdke> is anyone else thinking froud is back on the team?
<jsgotangco> he'll say that after the meeting
<mdke> its not a question of saying it tho
<mdke> he just obviously is
<jsgotangco> he emailed me on thinking of his decision after this meeting
<jsgotangco> hah
<gtaylor> yay, they set me up on svn
<jsgotangco> oh cool
<judax> yeah, me too
<jsgotangco> that's great guys welcome aboard
<jsgotangco> *whew*
<judax> :)
<gtaylor> thanks, this will make it a lot easier to contribute
<mdke> good old elmo
<jsgotangco> definitely
<mdke> look forward to you spamming the commit list from now on gtaylor 
<mdke> and judax 
<jsgotangco> yay
<gtaylor> the assailment will begin tomorrow :)
<jsgotangco> i can now mess up other stuff
<jsgotangco> guys, feel free to change the screenshots
<jsgotangco> my kubuntu box is so messed up
<judax> hah
<gtaylor> you should see my laptop :) the entire desktop is backwards
<jsgotangco> consistency is the key like i said before
* jsgotangco slaps mdke 
<mdke> ?
<jsgotangco> heh
<jsgotangco> CHILL
<jsgotangco> GOOSFRABA
<mdke> yep
<gtaylor> I haven't heard anyone else say that before :)
<mdke> i'm cool
<jsgotangco> what
<jsgotangco> goosfraba?
<jsgotangco> heh
<gtaylor> goosfraba
<gtaylor> I heard it like once
<jsgotangco> i was watching anger management last night
<jsgotangco> on dvd
<gtaylor> ahh, ok
<gtaylor> gotcha
<mdke> its just that you guys go off topic and and don't come back ;)
<judax> what is goosfraba?
<gtaylor> helps you relax :)
<jsgotangco> goosfraba...
<gtaylor> say it
<gtaylor> gooooosfraba
<jsgotangco> yeeess...
<mpt> yyyyyyyakkaboo
<gtaylor> blah
<jsgotangco> i still remember the porn girls in that movie
<judax> hehe
<gtaylor> speaking of which, time to call my woman
* gtaylor ducks
<mdke> ok
<jsgotangco> judax, gtaylor glad that you're in the ship
<mdke> remind me to get plenty of sleep before the next docteam meetings
<jsgotangco> i really appreciate the patches
<judax> jsgotangco: glad to be here
<mdke> yeah GREAT WORK judax and gtaylor 
<gtaylor> jsgotangco: No problem, I look forward to helping more
<jsgotangco> i wll wreak havoc in edubuntu now
<gtaylor> Sounds like fun
<jsgotangco> yeah its way different to what we currently do
<mdke> right dudes I will write up minutes tomorrow
<jsgotangco> even the documentation for it would be crack
<mdke> unless anyone else has a burning desire
<judax> mdke: sleep well
<jsgotangco> mdke, if you want, i'll do it for you
<jsgotangco> mdke, besides i called the meeting
<jsgotangco> mdke, i appreciate you pitching in, i was late my fault
<mdke> not at all
<jsgotangco> i slept around 1:30AM
<mdke> i fancy myself in that sort of role
<mdke> its the lawyer in me
<jsgotangco> ahh yes, my favorite barrister
<mpt> I stayed up till about 5am writing HelpfulHelp
<mdke> :p
* mpt goes back to sleep
<mdke> mpt, sweet dreams, thanks for showing up man
* mpt dreams of free-as-in-beer access to acm.org research on online help
* mdke dreams of some beer
<jsgotangco> i will look into logs later
<jsgotangco> i will also announce the new committers on list
<judax> * 
<mdke> jsgotangco, np I am quite happy to do it, got some time tomorrow and this weekend
<judax> opps
<jsgotangco> (also outside)
<jsgotangco> mdke, ok toss a coin who will do it then
<jsgotangco> i'll announce thenew committers for now
<judax> drinking beer is much better than dreaming about it
<mpt> http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=307925 <-- now that's fast bug-fixing
<mdke> if you want to do it, i don't mind
<mdke> i had a bug closed in 9 minutes in bz.g.o :(
<jsgotangco> mdke, if you don't see a summary before lunchtime in your side, do it
<jsgotangco> i will review the logs in an hour
<mdke> jsgotangco, i will see if I can catch you when I wake up ;)
<mdke> thanks
<mdke> jsgotangco, email sabdfl about that secretary business
<jsgotangco> ok
<mdke> you'll have to give up tea tho
<jsgotangco> no way
<jsgotangco> hi froud you should sleep
<jdub> mpt: search acm for jane silber :)
<jdub> mpt: actually 'jane silber help' :)
<froud> yeah
<jsgotangco> wow nice search results
<mdke> man I need my laptop back
<mdke> webmail is just the worst
<judax> yeah webmail is no good, I suck my gmail down POP
* mdke nods
<mdke> i'm just waiting for my laptop to come home to pappa
<judax> did it break?
<mdke> not really
<mdke> they repaired it, and forgot to put the clip back on where the power cord goes in
<mdke> so I had to send it back AGAIN
<judax> ah, that is not good
<jsgotangco> heh
<mdke> support for my laptop has been going downhill tho
<jsgotangco> i download my emails for pop too
<mdke> since kernel 2.6.7 2 massive issues have cropped up with acpi
<jsgotangco> mdke, ask for one :)
<judax> yeah, that is awesome that gmail does that
<mdke> jsgotangco, you know I did :)
<mdke> but dunno if i'll get one
<judax> power has always been an issue
<jsgotangco> i wish yahoo would do it too
<jsgotangco> i have massive yahoo emails
<mdke> jsgotangco, i noticed that yahoo.it and yahoo.uk does it
<mdke> just yahoo.com doesn't
<jsgotangco> hmm
<jsgotangco> maybe i should get a yahoo.uk
<judax> they do it
<mdke> or tl
<judax> you just have to pay for it
<mdke> *grins*
<mdke> yeah but .it and .uk do it for free
<jsgotangco> im a sucker for freebies
<judax> ah, in us they charge for it
<judax> s/us/US
<mdke> jsgotangco, i read in -devel that mjg has decided on the laptop list
<jsgotangco> whoa he did
<mdke> [20:44:42]  mjg59 We have a list of people, I just need to get in touch with them
<jsgotangco> we'll see :-)
<mdke> yep
<jsgotangco> if it comes, it comes
* mdke nods
<mdke> in any case I wanna get these acpi issues fixed with my current one
<mdke> because they suck ass
<jsgotangco> what are you using?
<judax> what kind of laptop
<mdke> compaq presario 2100
<jsgotangco> im just using a no name taiwan unit
<jsgotangco> ouch
<jsgotangco> compaqs suck
<mdke> hey
<mdke> don't slag off my baby
<jsgotangco> sure they do
<jsgotangco> the HP ones are way better
<mdke> no issue with mine
<mdke> except the linux bugs
<jsgotangco> although i did see jbailey using an old compaq
<jsgotangco> (the new compaqs are huge though)
<judax> mdke: http://www.artifex.org/~dulles/compaq2100/
<judax> have not read it, but it talks about acpi
<mdke> judax, yeah i've seen lots of pages like that
<judax> ok
<mdke> just that the bugs have been introduced fairly recently
<mdke> like since 2.6.8 for one, and 2.6.10 for the other
<mdke> warty runs like a dream
<judax> just won't sleep or suspend or hibernate?
<mdke> judax, i might email that guy to ask if he has similar issues actually :)
<mdke> no battery status, and no screen brightness changes when AC power is toggled
<mdke> it won't suspend to ram or disk either, but thats no biggie for me
<judax> yeah, suspend and sleep and all that never bothered me, but the brightness would be a show-stopper
<mdke> its irritating
<mdke> i can't change it at all since 2.6.10
<jsgotangco> hehe
<jsgotangco> its like a brick then
<jsgotangco> its no better than the no name desknotes here
<mdke> battery status is of course a massive issue
<mdke> jsgotangco, the issues are not with the lappy but with the kernel
<judax> yeah
<jsgotangco> we actually have laptop style machines here with no batteries
<jsgotangco> ahhh
<mdke> windows works fine
<jsgotangco> well
<mdke> in fact I thought they were hardware issues until I tried windows
<judax> hehe, doesn't it always
<jsgotangco> windows aint that bad
<jsgotangco> (if configured properly)
<mdke> i hate it
<judax> I keep windows around for my gaming
<jsgotangco> i keep my xbox for that
<jsgotangco> i just spent a fortune last month for a PSP
<mdke> but i set it up and install some free apps and such and its just about bearable
<judax> I love MMOs, to the point that I can hardly play anything else, it is a sickness
<jsgotangco> judax, you play WoW?
<judax> yeah, I got one of those too, they are fun
<judax> I love it
<judax> jsgotangco: yes
<jsgotangco> judax, you can buy PSP porn over here
<mdke> damn you all and your gadgets
<jsgotangco> heh
<mdke> are they expensive?
<judax> jsgotangco: I have been reading that on slash and engadget
<jsgotangco> PSP is quite expensive
<mdke> I occasionally think about a gaming console
<jsgotangco> i just do pocket gaming now
<jsgotangco> i even use an N-Gage
<jsgotangco> hideous for a phone though
<mdke> man
<mdke> where do you get these wonderful toys
<jsgotangco> mdke, asia in general is a grey market
<mdke> i will visit
<jsgotangco> what's legal and what's not is actually not an issue
<judax> I have an N-Gage too, never liked it much
<judax> the new version looks better, but the borked the first one
<jsgotangco> so don't be surprised if i have 1,000+ DVDs and game discs at home
<jsgotangco> judax, i hate the new version, it doesnt have mp3 support but the media loading is nice
<judax> having to remove the battery compartment to change games *GRR*
<jsgotangco> the first version sucks so bad with the media slot
<jsgotangco> yeah
<judax> then they never delivered on any network games right off
<judax> 'corse PSP is lacking there too
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jsgotangco> i bought my daughter a DS for her birthday, i like it more than our PSP
<judax> jsgotangco: you like the PSP screen?
<jsgotangco> not really
<judax> DS is funner than you would think, touch screen can do alot
<judax> jsgotangco: I mean the picture quality, I dont like the fingerprints all over the place
<jsgotangco> same here
<jsgotangco> mine even had 3 dead pixels when it shipped
<judax> ah, that sucks
<judax> I got lucky, but I have read alot about dead pixels
<jsgotangco> yeah what sucks is that you can't return it if its less than 5 dead pixels
<judax> Sony has never been a support-centric company
<judax> jsgotangco: you play WoW?
<jsgotangco> rarely now
<jsgotangco> i switched to guild wars
<judax> yeah, I have that too, it is fun, but been taking a break from all games for a couple weeks, been busy
<jsgotangco> we're more spoiled with Korean MMOs though
<jsgotangco> theyre so incredibly cheap here
<judax> how much?
<jsgotangco> $2 to $3 on the average per month
<judax> bah
<judax> hehe
<judax> american arm of ncsoft is here in austin
<judax> lots of game devel here
<jsgotangco> yeah but ncsoft is pretty big
<judax> yes it is
<jsgotangco> (and pretty expensive)
<mdke> ok nearly bed time
<jsgotangco> there's gravity and hanbitsoft
<jsgotangco> equally good
<judax> mdke: night, take care
<judax> are those korean?
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jsgotangco> Ragnarok was done by Gravity
<judax> ah, I know that one
<jsgotangco> yeah the game is so hideous for some, but it has a huge following all over asia
<judax> sony and blizzard don't hold a candle to the korean subscription numbers
<jsgotangco> its so much bigger than FF XI
<judax> ragnarok is?
<jsgotangco> i did a temp job in Mu Online back then when they were setting up here
<judax> bet that was fun
<jsgotangco> the beta tests lasted months
<jsgotangco> heh
<jsgotangco> i was literally unproductive back then
<judax> I feel that way quite a bit
<jsgotangco> it really messed up my social life
<jsgotangco> i was into 3 closed beta tests at the same time
<judax> I used to play EQ like an madman, my wife was not happy, I am better with WoW
<judax> but I got on spurts
<jsgotangco> same here my wife complained a lot when i was into the closed beta tests of Tantra
<judax> know the feeling
<mdke> tantra?
<mdke> i thought your wife should approve of that
<judax> this a Sting thing?
<jsgotangco> hah
<jsgotangco> mdke, Tantra is a game, not Tantric sex
<jsgotangco> let me rephrase the title, its Tantra Online
<mdke> night
<jsgotangco> night
<judax> mdke: night
<jsgotangco> there's also this very bad game called Khan
<judax> why is it bad?
<jsgotangco> korean games are just about leveling up
<judax> bad = time
<judax> the grind
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jsgotangco> level grind
<jsgotangco> i have no idea why the kids here dig it so much
<jsgotangco> i haven't been plyaing them korean games for a while
<jsgotangco> guild wars is quite refreshing
<judax> guild wars is fun
<judax> and FREE
<judax> I have never been a PvP maniac, but they (guild wars) doing things right
<jsgotangco> well not really FREE, but cheaper in the long run
<judax> true
<jsgotangco> i really like the aesthetics of it as well
<jsgotangco> very nice use of anti-aliasing
<judax> the graphics are beautiful
<jsgotangco> yeah the score is great too
<judax> player models are the best of any game I thin
<judax> err think
<jsgotangco> i used to fanboy a lot on game music then
<jsgotangco> i got a pretty good collection
<judax> cool
<jsgotangco> judax, 
<jsgotangco> about your email
<judax> yes
<jsgotangco> are you familiar with subversion
<jsgotangco> or would rather use a gui way
<jsgotangco> a gui way would  be more productive if you're just committing
<judax> command line is fine, matters not, I am more familar with cvs
<judax> gui is fine too, whatever is easier
<jsgotangco> because as far as procedures with committing in our svn, there is none
<judax> ok
<jsgotangco> we grab what interests us
<jsgotangco> (we should make it detailed in the future though)
<jsgotangco> i use a gui called esvn
<judax> ok
<jsgotangco> you can do your command line svn on that as well so there's nothing to be missed
<jsgotangco> it just makes things easier
<judax> sounds good
* mdke wakes up
<mdke> COMMAND LINE IS EASIER!
<judax> mdke: haha
<jsgotangco> whatever works for you
<jsgotangco> i prefer to see the general overview of trunk
<jsgotangco> heh
<judax> do you have an electrode connected to irc notifications?
<mdke> i remembered I wanted to write a todo list for tomorrow
<jsgotangco> judax, in case you didn't know, all commits are sent to ubuntu-doc-commits list
<judax> 229 bst
<jsgotangco> for notification
<judax> ok, that is good to know
<jsgotangco> its best to fill up global.ent for now instead of deleting entries
<mdke> on no account delete entries in global.ent unless you've grepped the whole repository for them
<mdke> ;)
<jsgotangco> yes
<judax> ok
<mdke> otherwise links break
<jsgotangco> all docs will break
<jsgotangco> one way or another
<jsgotangco> mdke, 
<jsgotangco> a question
<mdke> y0
<jsgotangco> where do we put inactive contributors in current books?
<jsgotangco> we still have to acknoledge them for some parts of the book came from them
<mdke> my advice is to keep em in for now
<mdke> what do you think?
<jsgotangco> probably "past contributors"
<jsgotangco> hmm
<jsgotangco> well they do come in here once in a while
<jsgotangco> you never know when they'll come back
<mdke> yes
<jsgotangco> hornbeck for example is writing a dead tree book
<mdke> anyhow they have written parts of the docs
<mdke> so they are contributors
<jsgotangco> true
<jsgotangco> i think froud once thought about this as well
<jsgotangco> how to categorize such
<mdke> yep
<judax> looking at http://esvn.umputun.com/
<mdke> i don't really think its a big issue tbh
<jsgotangco> well i was just thinking of classifying who did most work per release instead of listing them all at once
<mdke> i think that is unnecessarily heirarchical
<mdke> we are a team
<mdke> the work is communal
<jsgotangco> well yeah
<jsgotangco> im just hungry
<mdke> for what?
<jsgotangco> a meatbun would be good
<mdke> ah
<jsgotangco> i was in this hongkong style dimsum hawker stand lsat night
<mdke> -> bed
<jsgotangco> i zoned out for a while
<mdke> no offence
<jsgotangco> np
<jsgotangco> heh
<mdke> but i'm absolutely knackered
<jsgotangco> it just sucks that my timzeone, most of the channels are quiet
<mdke> hey you've got au and us right now
<judax> what time in Manila?
<jsgotangco> yes but the eu guys are better chatters IMO
<mdke> very true
<mdke> :)
<mdke> night
<jsgotangco> no offense meant to the US guys
<mdke> AGAIN!
<jsgotangco> hehe
<jsgotangco> i used to live in chicago
<judax> hehe
<jsgotangco> judax, its 9:40AM
<judax> ah
<judax> you got up early
<jsgotangco> way too early
<judax> 842PM here, chicago time
<jsgotangco> are you in chicago?
<judax> yesterday
<jsgotangco> ahh
<judax> no Austin, TX
<judax> same timezone
<jsgotangco> my folks are actually naturalized citizens for decades but since i have a family here, i decided to stay herefor a while till my daughter grows up a bit
<judax> good friend of mine spends alot of time in manila and ...
<jsgotangco> and?
<judax> oh hell, my brain is taking a vacation
<judax> works for General Electirc
<jsgotangco> ohhh
<jsgotangco> GE is quite big here
<jsgotangco> Power sector
<judax> I thought he was doing something with water delivery, but I could be wrong
<jsgotangco> hmm
<jsgotangco> probably dam projects
<judax> Indonesia
<judax> that was the ...and...
<judax> where, after your daughter grows up a bit?
<jsgotangco> probably back in chicago where i spent my HS years but i've been thinking of moving somewhere else
<jsgotangco> we've been thinking of Toronto or vancouver
<judax> I like Chicago, never been to Toronto or Vancouver, but heard they are beautiful
<jsgotangco> i've been to Toronto its quite lively
<jsgotangco> i can actually live anywhere, but my wife prefers an urbanized area
<judax> Toronto and Vancouver are on either sides of the map, hehe
<jsgotangco> heh yeah
* robitaille thinks Vancouver and Victoria are a lot nicer than Toronto...best climate in Canada
<jsgotangco> ive been hearing good things about Victoria
<jsgotangco> i can live in the northern territory if its possible
<judax> friend of mine lives 3 hrs north of Edmonton
<judax> I actually long for cold weather here in Austin, not from here
<judax> esvn installed
<judax> ah, I see froud has done a bunch of the docs for esvn, coo
<judax> err cool
<jsgotangco> judax, most of them are untouched lately though
<jsgotangco> probably from the last merging from branch
<judax> jsgotangco: hey
<judax> using esvn, looking at /ubuntu-doc but when I drill down into the directories, say /utuntu-doc/kde/kquickguide/C there is nothing there
<judax> complains about not finding the empty item
<judax> top-level directories it sees things in like /ubuntu-doc/styleguide
<judax> sees the doc in there but no lower
<jsgotangco> if you select C, you'll see the document in the other pane
<judax> hmm, I got something messed up then
<judax> do I need to define a workspace, or should I be able to see all the stuff just pulling from the existing working svn directory?
<robitaille> It's too bad I missed the meeting.  I wanted to show up, but it got crazy at work, and then I had to drive my kids somewhere.  I'll have to check the logs
<judax> hmm, it works now, after sitting a bit, I see all the doc, strange
<judax> oh well, good, now on to authentication
<jsgotangco> robitaille, it was interesting nonetheless but a lot of stuff needs to be resolved as well
<jsgotangco> a 22:00UTC meeting can be nasty to those in EU
<robitaille> it was 3pm here in Victoria.  Which can be a good or a bad thing depending on the day.  Essentially the best times for me are usually between now and 8:00UTC
<robitaille> i.e when  I'm not at work and  the kids are sleeping :)
<robitaille> I still want to get more involves with this group in the semi-near future.  That's why I wanted to check the meeting.  Froud mentionned the system admin doc a while back, but I saw that this got shelved for Breezy
<jsgotangco> robitaille, it doesn't mean that it can't be worked out right now, it just means it won't be packaged
<robitaille> I know.  Anyway I'm sure I'll find something to do once I have some time to sit down and check things out.
<jsgotangco> robitaille, the good news is that we have 2 new committer accounts done by elmo so it would lighten the load on other docs
<jsgotangco> like i can wreak havoc in edubuntu now
<jsgotangco> and even mess up with admin stuff for this team
<jdub> robitaille: you're canadian?
<robitaille> jdub,  yes
<jdub> i am an idiot :-)
<robitaille> ?
<jdub> for some reason, i totally assumed you were french
<robitaille> I'm french-canadian.  My first language in french
<robitaille> but have lived/worked/stidies for 15 years in an english environment
<robitaille> s/stidies/studies
<jdub> yeah
<robitaille> jdub,  I thought managing the ubuntu-ca mailing list would have been a good hint that I was not from France :)
<jdub> heh
<jdub> don't rub it in ;)
<robitaille> out of curiosity, you must get so many admin e-mails for the ubuntu-users list for spam and e-mails from non-subscribers; it must get annoying; the ubuntu-ca gets its fair share and it is a small list.
<Burgundavia> rofl
<Burgundavia> jdub, robitaille and I live in the same city
<Burgundavia> quite ironic
<robitaille> but haven't manage to met yet.
<jdub> robitaille: we intend to run the mailman spamassassin plugin when the lists are shifted
<jdub> (they're hosted on a pooey machine)
<robitaille> with jsgotangco talking of moving to Canada one day, maybe will attract him to Victoria, and this town will become quite an Ubuntu presence
<Burgundavia> yes
<robitaille> Canadian greetings to froud  and jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> hello
<froud> African greetings
<froud> jsgotangco: Congratulations on becoming secretary
<froud> well deserved
<froud> you have come a long way since joing the team, amazing :-)
<froud> can anyone tell me who the chief honcho is at baz
<froud> do they have a channel?
<robitaille> #bazaar   maybe?
<jsgotangco> me secretary?
<froud> jsgotangco: yes, or was a reading wrong in the meeting
<robitaille> I guess someone else has to read the irc logs of #ubuntu-meeting  besides me :)
<jsgotangco> hmm i must have missed that
<froud> why is that not what mark said?
<jsgotangco> it was after all 6am
<jsgotangco> hmm ok
<froud> well you volunteered no
<froud> robitaille: am I right
<jsgotangco> oh right
<robitaille> I wasn't there...and I'm about to read the logs;  So I'll stay neutral in this "debate" :)
<froud> Hmmm the bazaar and bzr are really wide awake (not)
<mdke> morning
<froud> morn
<jsgotangco> morning
<mdke> [08:25:00]  jsgotangco me secretary?
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> he was at the meeting right?
<jsgotangco> hmm?
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jsgotangco> he was
<jsgotangco> heh
<mdke> [08:26:33]  froud well you volunteered no
<mdke> i thought you did
<jsgotangco> yes i did
<jsgotangco> mdke, don't worrry about it
<mdke> i won't
<mdke> am I doing the meeting minutes today?
<mdke> jsgotangco?
<jsgotangco> hey
<jsgotangco> sorry
<jsgotangco> i was out
<mdke> np
<mdke> :)
<jsgotangco> mdke, can you do the minutes?
<mdke> yes
<jsgotangco> (so sorry about this)
<mdke> not a problem
<jsgotangco> i was tracing some stuff that happened over here
<jsgotangco> one guy was hacking shit in the network
<mdke> lay the smackdown
<jsgotangco> i didnt expect the word smackdown from an english guy
<mdke> *grins*
<mdke> american culture is everywhere
<jsgotangco> would it be possible to ssh somewhere else in an existing ssh session?
<mdke> yeah
* mdke looks at jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> theres this guy here at work
<mdke> you can ssh into a machine and ssh back into the first machine if you like
<jsgotangco> yes
<mdke> you can do ANYTHING
<jsgotangco> no i was thinking this box got rooted
<mdke> mwahhahaha
<jsgotangco> then he ssh'ed to a local machine
<jsgotangco> then ssh'ed again to another machine using the 2 rooted stuff
<jsgotangco> (not this box)
<jsgotangco> another one though
<jsgotangco> i am not surprised if that's what happened
<jsgotangco> he got stumped when he tried to get into the ubuntu box
<mdke> Be RiGhT bAcK
<jsgotangco> (he got into a local user though, but it doesn't contain anything)
<jsgotangco> i gotta go
<mdke> ok
<mdke> night
<jsgotangco> secretary
<jsgotangco> heh
<jsgotangco> mdke, ping?
<mdke> yep
<mdke> jsgotangco, pong
<jsgotangco> oh nvm i remember you were going to do the minutes
<jsgotangco> who's the new committer beside the 2?
<mdke> judax, gtaylor, mvirkkil, jjesse
<jsgotangco> ahhh 4!
<jsgotangco> can you announce them as well?
<mdke> alright
<jsgotangco> thanks man, i'll make it with you real soon
<mdke> :)
<mdke> don't be so sure
<jsgotangco> what do you mean
<jsgotangco> :)
<mdke> j/k
<mdke> "make it"
<jsgotangco> right, hack the source and make it happen
<jsgotangco> heh
<jjesse> froud is there a place to go to learn how to commit via svn now that i have a username and password?
<froud> jjesse: what do you want to comit?
<jjesse> nothing now, but in the future
<froud> ok let say you have a file changed
<froud> foo.xml
<jjesse> nod 
<froud> for now just cd to that dir
<froud> then do svn commit foo.xml
<froud> you will be given chance to enter a message
<froud> save and exit
<froud> and you will be prompted for username on first commit
<froud> the password is the same as your pgp key
<froud> the password you use for your key
<jjesse> ok
<froud> not  the key istelf
<jjesse> understanding now
<froud> try a small test now
<jjesse> i've used cvs before and i always had to setup a CVSROOT before
<froud> make a small change in a file 
<jjesse> which is cumbersome
<froud> yes, your user pass details are stored in the repos .svn
<froud> once you have done a commit you will not have give details again
<froud> in baz you also have to set your id
<froud> baz my-id "Joe User <joe@example.com>"
<froud> but you do it just once, the email must just match thatused in the pgp key
<jjesse>  ok
<jjesse> question on the password
<froud> so with baz, providing you use the same email and pgp key you should be able to to it once
<jjesse> i received a password from james troup do i use that password or my key password?
<froud> yes
<froud> that user and pass is associated with your pgp key siginature on the server
<jjesse> ok succesfful committ
<froud> it should correspond with the key on your system
<froud> nice
<froud> easy
<froud> sorry it took so long to get you that
<jjesse> no worries i was slow on my end thank you very much for the help
<jjesse> now i have to get back to work :(
<froud> just did not realize that you did not have commit
<froud> cool
<jjesse> off topic did you hear about the bbc and the beethoven symphonies
<froud> no :-)
<jjesse> yeah they are releasing the full symphonies in .mp3 format
<jjesse> but i missed downloading the first two :(
<froud> he he you like that stuff?
<jjesse> its good music to work w/
<jjesse> drowns out the crappy overhead music that is playing
<jjesse> i hate eleveator music
<froud> ah yes
<froud> anything is better than that
<froud> I like the orchestra live
<froud> but when I work it my be dead silent
<froud> I mean a cricket can anoy me
<froud> :-)
<froud> the telephone even gives me a fright when I get deep into something
<jjesse> i have to have sound
<jjesse> i hate subnetting
<froud> why?
<jjesse> i'm not good at it
<froud> it's not hard once you get the hang of it
<froud> thank moses for subnetting
<froud> what would we do without it
<jjesse> i know but i'm configuring my cisco pix and need to come up w/ the correct range of ip address to open up for a company to access a certain program remotely
<judax> Texas-sized Greetings
<mdke> mmm
<mdke> i'd like a texas sized hamburger right now
<judax> yes, so would I, I am hungry!
<judax> mdke: quick question
<judax> reading the conversation froud and jjesse had earlier
<judax> so, the password elmo sent with the svn account is not the one to use?
<judax> should use gpg key passphrase?
<mdke> here i am
<mdke> no don't let them confuse you ;)
<mdke> elmo should have sent you the password encrypted with your key
<mdke> you can decrypt it and see the password
<mdke> thats the one to use
<judax> ok, thx, that was confusing me, elmo did just that
<mdke> for security purposes
<judax> understood
<mdke> ;)
<mdke> phillip cain around?
<mdke> hi JonA 
<JonA> Hi there :-)
<mdke> hi there philipacamaniac 
<mdke> thanks for helping on the homepages thing
<philipacamaniac> yeah, the wiki needs help, so i'm helping :)
<mdke> start from g if you wanna do more now, i'm just doing a bit
<philipacamaniac> Thanks. Speaking of help, should the old comments on pages be moved to /talk pages?
<mdke> yes in theory
<mdke> but I wouldn't make an organised initiative out of it
<mdke> probably best to do it for the pages you care about ;)
<philipacamaniac> not yet anyway... perhaps because subpages currently reside in talk?
<mdke> well they can be put under a different heading
<philipacamaniac> I just did the G's so you can take them out
<mdke> kewl
<mdke> done
<mdke> tell you what
<mdke> i'll start at the bottom from now on
<mdke> that way we won't clash ;)
<philipacamaniac> that'll work!
<mdke> i wonder how many tabs firefox can handle
<philipacamaniac> I've been wondering the same...
<mdke> blooming loads
<philipacamaniac> oh crap, what to do about those messed up names? (ones with special characters?)
<philipacamaniac> does the new wiki not accept special characters in wikinames?
<mdke> example url?
<philipacamaniac> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MikkoVirkkil_c3_a4
<philipacamaniac> MikkoVirkkil
<philipacamaniac> "c3 a4" representing the ""
<mdke> guess not
<mdke> i tried to rename it right now, it has gone to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MikkoVirkkil%c3%a4
<philipacamaniac> hmm, looking at how it is printed on a search page, it looks correct. so I guess it is just URLs
<mdke> we're discovering lots of things with this damn wiki transfer
<mdke> yeah looks like it works within the wiki, just the URL
<mdke> if you want to flag it up on that thread for henrik, go ahead tho
<mdke> you on M already?
<mdke> damn fast
<philipacamaniac> firefox tabs are our friends
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> i'm gonna take a break
<mdke> arm is falling off
<philipacamaniac> :)
<philipacamaniac> what should I do about MarksHoaryGoals
<philipacamaniac> he has a separate homepage
<mdke> check for backlinks
<mdke> then delete if it has none
<mdke> hang on
<philipacamaniac> you don't think the info should be saved?
<mdke> lets ask him
<mdke> actually it seems to be linked in his homepage
<philipacamaniac> okay, missed that
<mdke> don't categorise it, just leave it
<philipacamaniac> right
<mdke> i guess the importer has put all subpages of UserPages on the /talk page too
<philipacamaniac> oh boy, more fun!
<mdke> sent a call to help on the list
<HappyFool> i hope this is the right place for this: the link "https://site-edit.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/folder_contents" on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UserDocumentation is broken -- this is a bit frustrating, as the UserDocumentation page has been drastically shortened
<HappyFool> and it's now difficult to find docs
<judax> thx for the link, I believe we have people working on some of these issues
<philipacamaniac> try https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UserDocumentation?action=edit
<Kinnison> k
<Kinnison> w/w
<Kinnison> sorry
<philipacamaniac> oh wait... sorry, I think I see what you mean
<HappyFool> i'd edit it, but i don't know what to do ;)
<HappyFool> well, where to point it
<philipacamaniac> how about https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TitleIndex
<HappyFool> looks promising
<philipacamaniac> if no one minds, I'll go ahead and fix the rest of the broken links on that page
<mako> gtaylor: hey, you around?
<mako> mdke: ?
<mako> Seveas: you too?
<mako> anywya.. there is a forums meeting in #ubuntu-meeting any or all of you should show up if you can
<mako> i would apppreciate it
<squinn> mako, i was just not-so-kindly asked to leave
<squinn> but it's alright
<squinn> mako, take those lines out of the log..issue resolved..i'm too stupid to take a joke
<squinn> Hey, docteam-ers?
<gtaylor> mako: Yes?
* froud reading meeting
<mako> squinn: that was a joke dude
<mako> :)
<squinn> mako, we talked it out
<mako> cool
<squinn> mako, i had to think about it
<squinn> until i realized it made absolutely zero sense..and was invited back in
<squinn> Are the minutes from the meeting yesterday online yet?
<froud> what caused the problems at the forums
<squinn> from what i understand, it just seems like routine maintenance meeting
<froud> no some problem
<squinn> Oh, ok.
<gtaylor> of course they're making little interjectory statements about docteam members, mdke you might want to hop in
<froud> which members
<froud> I see no comments
<squinn> yeah, neither do i
<gtaylor> you wouldn't, you weren't involved in the scuffle
<gtaylor> there are like 8 moderators and 3 users there
<froud> well chaps
<froud> night
<judax> froud: night
<froud> judax: ;-)
#ubuntu-doc 2005-06-25
<mdke> evening all
<mdke> hows it gone
<mdke> mako, still around?
* mdke reads logs
<mdke> good meeting
<squinn> Hey, mdke..how are ya?
<squinn> Sorry for getting lost last night.
<mdke> not a problem
<mdke> i'm well, you?
<mdke> just reading the logs from the forum meeting
<mdke> looks like it went well
<mdke> damn
<jdodson> hey.
<jdodson> anyone around?
<mdke> damn
<mdke> missed im
<squinn> mdke, do you have minutes from last nite?
<mdke> not yet
<mdke> i am gonna do them tomorrow
<mdke> squinn ^^
<squinn> okay, thanks..mdke lol
<mdke> night all
<squinn> night mdke 
<froud> African greetings
<melodie> hello :)
<froud> hello melodie 
<melodie> hello froud
<melodie> I'm coming on Seans invitation:
<melodie> https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=11945
<froud> yes that's me
<froud> can you explain more on what you are doing?
<melodie> yes, I can explain what you wish: I just found this mail from the system
<froud> melodie: that document was not shipped
<froud> how are you using it?
<melodie> there is a copy of this mail as a file in my /home/login I could not miss it
<froud> Hmmmm, strange
<melodie> I don't know with what dl I got this FAQ
<froud> OK, lemme explain
<froud> this document is now ported to hoary
<melodie> I probably thought it was a good idea to have it, one day...
<melodie> I'm under Hoary
<froud> it lives in our svn
<melodie> ok
<melodie> I read your reply
<froud> but in order to install it, one must install much more
<melodie> such as ?
<froud> I would not bother with trying to fix it
<melodie> I can uninstall it if it does not belong to an important package
<froud> the best thing if you want to work on it is to checkout our svn
<froud> yes it can be uninstalled
<froud> are you on warty or hoary
<melodie> I would like to avoid more messages of this type from Anacron jot :)
<melodie> Hoary
<froud> OK
<melodie> I upgrade from Array 7 prerelease
<melodie> upgraded
<froud> ok
<froud> that explains how you got the file
<froud> it was intended to ship
<froud> but then we removed it
<froud> seems it was not removed during your upgrade
<melodie> I cannont check on SVN's: didn't learn and don't have time to learn checkout and so on
<froud> it is only worhwhile if you plan on writing to the docs
<melodie> I understand, that's why I gave this precision
<froud> otherwise you will just be wasting disk space
<froud> OK, so I guess that solves your problem
<froud> thanks for registering the problem though
<melodie> anyhow I understand how XML works but don't know XML writing
<melodie> it's ok  :)
<froud> cool, any other questions?
<melodie> yes
<froud> shoot
<melodie> how can I found the name package to uninstall ?
<froud> uninstall ubuntu-doc and then reinstall it
<melodie> oh yes! thanks :)
<melodie> does it need '-purge' option ?
<froud> the reinstall should only install that which was shipped with hoary
<melodie> sure
<froud> Hmm, not sure, you can try it
<melodie> ok  :)
<froud> ok I am going back to work, see ya
<melodie> I uninstall and don't reinstall: there are enough docs on the wiki and the web
<melodie> bye
<melodie> have nice we :)
<melodie> thanks you very much
<froud> np
<melodie> :)
<robitaille> it's always nice to have one less bug in the bugzilla.
<froud> morn robitaille 
<robitaille> actually it's pretty late here (1:17am).  I'm  about to go to bed.
<froud> He he
<froud> well then, African Greetings
<robitaille> just wasted way too much time in gimp to come up with my own little picture for planet.ubuntu
<froud> Hmmm just use Inkscape and do it in vectors
<robitaille> gimp is one of the application I have never liked the interface
<robitaille> yeah, I will try Inkscape next time.
<mpt> Someone needs to fork the Gimp
<mpt> And fix the problem of the horrible name and the dodgy interface in one fell swoop
<froud> mpt: as usual your are ever so radical a revolutionary :-)
<mpt> Well, they could have renamed themselves and come up with a non-sucky interface themselves over the past ... what, five years?
<mpt> but they haven't
* froud hugs mpt, who seems to be in grumpy mood today
<mpt> :-)
<mpt> Lack of sleep
<robitaille> didn't they promised version 2 will have a lot better interface than v1?  It's seems different, but similar at the same time
<mpt> Decent image editing software is the pre-requisite to a bunch of areas of market share
<mpt> Web design
<froud> participation in FOSS projects leads to sleep deprevivation
<mpt> DTP
<froud> DTP = Scribus
<mpt> Yeah, have you actually tried to use Scribus?
<froud> Yeah, pain
<froud> we have a mag here in co.za
<froud> called tectonic
<froud> its here http://www.tectonic.co.za
<froud> The editor wanted to use scribus for the dtp
<mpt> Pre-requisite perhaps isn't quite the right word ... I mean there are plenty of people who need high-end image editing software but don't need DTP software, but there are many fewer people who need DTP software but don't need high-end image editing software.
<froud> went back to quark
<froud> dude I am with you on this one
<froud> totally agree
<froud> Now InDesign, there is something I like
<mpt> yeah
<mpt> Strategically it's a bit horrid
<froud> Have you seen how it brings in photoshop
<froud> man you can layer text inside the photoshop images
<froud> it keeps photoshop layers
<froud> way cool dude
<mpt> You can do that with Quark 6.5 too, which is a free upgrade from 6.0
<froud> yeah quark still rocks, but InDesign is doing some great stuff
<robitaille> time to go to bed.  good night.
<mpt> One the one hand, coming up with decent DTP software now would *perhaps* be more likely to eat Mac market share than Windows market share (depending on how much the rest of Ubuntu's interface was improved), especially over the next 2~4 years, and Apple provides Linux-based OSes with a lot of strategic cover
<froud> night robi
<mpt> On the other hand, if most DTPers over the next few years switch from Quark to InDesign, by the time Linux-based OSes have decent DTP server, people will roll their eyes and not want to switch again.
<froud> mpt: Mac is Mac, it rocks becuase it has roots in FreeBSD :-)
<mpt> server->software
<mpt> (when I get tired I don't mess up letters, I mess up entire words)
<froud>  he he, we understand
<froud> when you have some time I want to better understand your help proposal
<mpt> I've never used Quark *or* InDesign, I've got no dog in that fight, I just care about Ubuntu :-)
<froud> Kubuntu dude, come to Kubuntu
<rob^> why kubuntu?
<mpt> But I suppose it's a moot point as long as nobody's putting serious money into developing creative software
* froud shakes his head to all those lost soles at gnome
<mpt> Are you accusing me of being a fish, froud
<froud> Kubuntu is light years ahead
<rob^> froud, whats wrong with gnome then?
<mpt> )><)))>
<froud> he he
<froud> just a lost one
<mpt> I installed Konqueror, just for testing Launchpad on KHTML
<mpt> THE SCROLLBARS HAVE THREE ARROW BUTTONS EACH
<froud> ooooo noooo
<mpt> craaaaaaaaaack
<froud> Konqueror is only good for its kioslaves
<froud> not as a browser
<froud> for serious browsing I still install FF
<mpt> I'll switch to KDE when they stop using the letter K.
<mpt> And when they switch to the One True Dialog Button Ordering.
<froud> but kde desktop rocks
<froud> and the transulent stuff is way cool
<rob^> I guess its what your used to
<froud> hows about a mac style program bar
<froud> for you
<mpt> oooo, yes
<froud> the one on top
<froud> come to kde dude and you got it
<mpt> mmm, come into this swamp and we'll give you a free pair of waders
<mpt> :->
<froud> OK I am going back to reviewing the kwickguide
* froud scurries off before mpt gets a religious itch
<mpt> froud: We can talk about HelpfulHelp tomorrow when I'm more awake and less cranky
<froud> good idea
<Njal> So this is the documentation team
<Njal> cool
<froud> welcome
<Njal> I have been pointed here coz i have an idea and it would be best to let you guys know about it
<froud> shoot
<froud> ideas are good
<Njal> I hard copy of a manual
<froud> yes
<Njal> Not like the online guide an actualy installation and configuration manual
<froud> ok
<Njal> that would come with the cd's in shipit
<froud> yes
<Njal> or you could order 
<froud> yes
<froud> Njal: you are spot on
<froud> Njal: we are working in Docbook XML
<froud> Njal: this enables us to produce PDF
<froud> and other formats
<froud> we have a number of books in progress
<froud> all ofwhich can be produced in electonic an dprint formats
<Njal> ah cool, may i ask how far along this is?
<froud> It takes time
<froud> the best way to help is to help write the books
<froud> are you up to it
<Njal> It'll be easier than maintaining backports :P
<froud> that's what you think :-)
<froud> Here are the projects https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamProjects
<froud> Are you a gubuntu or kubuntu user
<Njal> If i can help i will, but like the best of us we have lives, and i will be on holiday for three weeks soon
<Njal> :$
<Njal> But i am happy to help
<froud> Njal: that is why it takes time (see above)
<froud> we currently have goals for breezy
<Njal> I am gnome
<froud> we are aiming stong at user guides for ubuntu and kubuntu
<froud> as I said the best way to make books a thing in shipit is to help write them
<froud> have you worked with svn before?
<Njal> nope
<Njal> i don't even know what that is
<froud> have you worked with cvs
<froud> OK Njal do you have time I will hel pyou get started
<froud> its not that hard
<Njal> CVS thats ... um concurrent versioning system right?
<Njal> it
<froud> and we would very much like to hold your hand
<froud> yep
<Njal> um moniters changes in files
<froud> so svn is cvs, without the wrinkles
<Njal> static?
<froud> its the place we keep our files
<froud> it helps us collaborate on the project and makes sure we dont clobber each others work
<Njal> Unfortunatly i cannot start today, i could probibly start looking 2moro afternoon/night
<Njal> If that's ok
<froud> fair enough I just wanted to get you installed
<froud> takes about 20 mins
<Njal> I have about 5 :$
<froud> Ok then later
<froud> you are welcome
<Njal> Thanks though, i like being involved and as i keep saying i am no programmer yet, i just wanna help where i can
<froud> we dont need programmers here
<Njal> I know
<froud> we just need passion and enthusiasm
<Njal> I got that
<froud> dedication is also good
<Njal> Well i'll do all i can
<froud> and of course if you want to work night and day and not have a life that is most appreciated
<Njal> Then my gf tells me off, though i'm fairly new to linux really only the past couple of years so i might need a little technical info from time to timo
<Njal> I can work out how to install etc but some things i just dont understand yet
<Njal> Also if this is a problem i cant seem to run VMware, i am under the impression that it's used to grab screen shots?
<froud> not always
<froud> some of us run qemu for low level capture
<froud> but mostly we use imagemagic
<Njal> Actually i think i have that on a disc
<froud> but would not worry, there is lots of gui work to do
<froud> qemu is cool for under linux
<froud> does not work onwindows
<froud> but we really suggest you install ubuntu or kubuntu and point at the breezy repositories
<froud> the down of that is the breezy breaks
<froud> its under heavy development
<Njal> Is breezy stable enough, yeah that's what i thought
<Njal> Im just apt-getting qemu, might as well
<froud> You can use the prerelease ISO images
<froud> not as interactive as the repositories, but much safer
<Njal> I have bb so i could just edit /etc/apt/sources.list
<froud> well its up to you
<froud> some of us dont mind having our machines breaking
<froud> lucky for me I use lab machines
<Njal> Again when i have more time, i will sort out breezy, well to be honest now i don't need it as much since i have now finished college
<Njal> Breaks should not matter as much
<froud> again its up to you
<froud> you know by now I could have had you installed and ready to look at the books :-)
<Njal> I know, my ride's late... as always
<froud> OK I am going bck to work
<froud> c ya around I hope
<Njal> Yeah i'll prolly come back on 2moro
<froud> if I am not here ask somebody here to help you get started
<Njal> thanks for a 'feel' of the place
<Njal> bye
<froud> yep, np, you are like totally empowered here to get involved and make a difference, its up to you
<froud> oh well
<froud> the intent was good :-)
<sivang> hey froud 
<sivang> hey nj
<froud> hey I am writing a response
<froud> :-)
<froud> response sent
<froud> sivang: is the mailing list slow or is it my imagination?
<mdke> all the ubuntu lists are a little slow
<mdke> (morning)
<froud> Hmmm, morning
<mdke> froud, you sent something to the list?
<froud> mdke: yes
<froud> and I have numerous commits today
<froud> but nothing has come through
<mdke> erm
<mdke> screenshots?
<froud> no
<froud> mail
<froud> and the usual commits to svn
<mdke> oh you mean commits by others?
<mdke> hmm
<froud> no my commits
<mdke> yes, but what are they?
<froud> have you received any messages from the commit list
<mdke> nope
<mdke> i'm just updating svn now
<froud> well then there is a problem
<mdke> i see lots of screenshots and edubuntu
<froud> I have done about 12 commits
<mdke> so you're back with the team?
<froud> just visiting
<mdke> *sighs*
<froud> dude its not so easy
<froud> I need to make sure
<mdke> well if you are committing, then you are working on the team surely
<froud> but I also dont want the world falling apart because I am not here
<froud> maybe
<mdke> the world will not fall apart ;)
<froud> you missed the forums meeting yesterday
<froud> it nearly did
<mdke> i know i missed it
<mdke> no it didn't
<froud> and somehow became a docteam vs forums fight
<mdke> froud, i read the logs
<froud> had to step in a make our position clear
<froud> also I cant allow invalid docbook in svn
<mdke> I have exchanged a number of messages with ubuntu-geek
<mdke> you can't allow it?
<mdke> why not?
<froud> because if I come back full time I will have a mountain of things to fix
<mdke> mate
<mdke> if you work on the team, you will not be responsible for fixing everything
<froud> besides the sitrap with yelp etc is not resolved
<mdke> you are part of a team
<mdke> froud, that will need to be resolved with the technical board
<froud> he he, but ppl are not fixing it
<froud> which means they dont see a problem
<froud> well I explained to sabdfl
<mdke> [12:23:24]  bob2 lists.ubuntu.com is temporarily screwed
<froud> who does not see my route as unreasonable
<mdke> your route?
<froud> yes, HTML
<mdke> should the issue not be discussed with the whole docteam?
<froud> it was
<froud> mdke: ppl have short memory
<mdke> ok
<mdke> whatever you say
<froud> of course :-)
<mdke> but to a certain extent what happened was, you said "I'm developing a web based help reader which we will use for breezy"
<froud> no I said I am developing a web-based app
<froud> any browser
<mdke> yeah sorry
<mdke> but my point doesn't change
<froud> mdke: you know there comes a time when one has to ask, "Am I working in the right way?"
<mdke> that's what I'm asking you
<froud> So far I have explained why and I know it is the best solution for us
<mdke> look, lets make this clear, yelp is not that satisfactory
<mdke> BUT
<mdke> you can't make decisions like that on your own without consulting the technical board
<froud> Hmmm you still miss the point
<mdke> also, it should be the whole docteam discussing the matter
<froud> the whole doc team was two ppl
<mdke> preferably in a meeting
<froud> enrico and I
<froud> then came you good fellows
<froud> its not your fault
<froud> its mine
<froud> the decision was made long back
<froud> of course with discussion of members who are no longer with us
<froud> alas
<mdke> froud, i know that you have done the bulk of the work for the team for a while, but I just want to point out, from the point of view of handling the team as a whole, that you have a tendency to make decisions on your own
<mdke> now that may or may not be justified, given the amount of time you put into the team
<mdke> but it can make things difficult
<froud> Hmmm I like to see it as direction
<mdke> i'm just trying to point out how others might see it
<froud> the technical vision is clear and works
<mdke> that may be true
<mdke> but the decision should be made at a team level, and consultation with the Ubuntu technical board is essential
<froud> mdke: understand that until last meeting this team was not even recognized as an official team
<froud> we did consult ppl
<mdke> well then the emphasis should have been on making it one
<froud> we got noting
<mdke> well now there is a clear process
<mdke> there are a number of technical issues to be discussed at a docteam meeting, and then proposals can be made to the technical board
<froud> the fact that all of a sardine ppl start taking an interest should not derail the technical vision
<froud> based on religious issues
<mdke> all I am saying, is that the vision is yours
<mdke> and it should be everyone's, including the TB
<froud> dude I was th eonly person here
<froud> who elses vision coul dit be
<froud> :-)
<mdke> well you have my point
<mdke> no point going into repetition
<froud> no
<froud> so all I ask
<froud> is see my reasoning
<froud> if it is wrong then the team will change it
<mdke> i will see your reasoning, but as long as you put proposals in the correct way
<froud> but I am hard to convince
<froud> yo dude th elist is full of them
<froud> no answers
<mdke> froud, the team doesn't have to convince you, you have to convince the team, then the technical board
<mdke> that's how it works
<froud> when no answer = consent
<froud> not quite
<froud> the tool set is here
<froud> it is made using my IP
<froud> I give that as a gift
<mdke> erm
<mdke> what you just said sounds like blackmail
<froud> if TB and TEAM want me to work, then they must convince me otherwise
<froud> no just the real fact
<froud> mdke: ask yourself
<froud> would you want to work in a way that you know is wrong
<mdke> froud, one thing I have learnt since I've been helping out in the doc team and the italian team, is that the teams are more important than the people
<mdke> froud, i agree with you
<froud> team is very important
<froud> hence I want to start taking a back seat
<mdke> froud, so the options are, 1. convince people through the proper channels, 2. put up with it, or 3. stop working, this is clearly set out in the Code of Conduct
<froud> Hmmm
<mdke> i don't think 1 will be particularly difficult
<mdke> but it has to be done
<froud> mdke: I am not unreasonable
<mdke> i know
<froud> if ppl take the time to hear what I am say
<froud> at present they are not
<froud> and yet they dont have half the knowledge of docbook I have
<mdke> froud, they will, but you need to discuss the matter at a docteam meeting, then put a proposal to the technical board
<froud> Hmmm
<mdke> both sets of people will take account of your expertise
<froud> dude I beg to differ
<mdke> ok
<mdke> last thing I will say
<froud> I dont aim for member/mainatiner and @ubuntu.com email clubbing
<mdke> you've gotta work within the teams
<froud> I do
<froud> very well
<froud> and am very productive
<mdke> i know
<mdke> but nothing is bigger than the teams and the system set up
<froud> this is a technical issue
<froud> not personal
<mdke> individuals like you and me certainly are not
<mdke> if the teams and the system don't work, the solution is improving the system, not going alone
<froud> belive me I know that and I trust the community
<mdke> that is what I hope that the meeting will have achieved
<mdke> to improve the system
<froud> mdke: when you are alone you go alone
<mdke> anyway
<mdke> i believe the infrastructure is now in place to resolve the yelp issues, and other technical issues
<mdke> i will write up the meeting minutes and we can go from there
<froud> mdke: do you think I would be sticking to my guns if I did not have good reason
<froud> on what do you base that?
<mdke> froud, i see people every day sticking to their guns without good reason, but I know that you have a good reason, it just needs to be expressed properly
<froud> the yelp issues are years from being resolved
<mdke> froud, you have proposed a solution
<froud> mdke: 20 min chat with sabdfl and he understood
<mdke> froud, this can be discussed as a team, and with the technical board
<froud> I dont hol dmuch chance for myself there
<froud> there is a shift in the force that is greater than I
<froud> I am not part of the club
<froud> and dont aim to be
<mdke> no offence, but that is rubbish
<mdke> the technical board is not a club
<froud> I dont do because sabdfl says or anyone esle
<mdke> nor incidentally is the Community Council
<froud> dude
<froud> what is a member
<mdke> the members of the technical board are there due to expertise
<froud> mdke I am not driven for ubuntu sake
<froud> and there is the rift
<mdke> Be RiGhT bAcK
<mdke> phone
<froud> I am driven for technical sake
<mdke> back
<mdke> oh well
<froud> mdke: ok
<froud> mdke: there are a number of breaks between me an ubuntu
<mdke> right
<froud> religious issues is one
<mdke> you use that term a lot
<mdke> but there are two sides to religious issues
<froud> my intent has and always will be for the good of the project
<mdke> of course
<froud> I do not feel that bending to religious issues is being true to myslef of the project
<froud> if the religion is politically stronger then I am the opposition party
<mdke> but as the opposition party you also have a religion
<froud> I wont just say yes, because th epower said so
<mdke> there are two sides to arguments
<froud> well party line
<mdke> i think that mark made it totally clear that they will help us in development of technologies, with virtual servers and such
<froud> great
<froud> but that is not my focus of issue
<froud> I spoke to him yesterday
<froud> I asked him if he understood
<mdke> but it is normal that if you are working within a group such as Ubuntu, you have to accept their judgment on many things
<froud> he did not
<froud> and asked me to explain
<mdke> if you don't, the important thing is that you can try and convince them
<froud> 20 mins later he said "it sounds reasonable"
<mdke> i'm glad about that
<froud> but all this noise is not good
<mdke> that doesn't mean that you don't have to convince the docteam and TB about any changes that you want to make to how help is viewed in Ubuntu
<froud> I want focus on making content
<mdke> froud, in that case, focus on content!
<froud> I do
<mdke> not quite
<froud> but how I do my markup and what techniques I use
<froud> I will write docs using my method that I know works
<froud> well not my method
<mdke> i'm afraid that is quite simply not correct
<froud> the std
<froud> but it is
<froud> just look at our sources
<froud> look at any of the docs I am involved with
<mdke> if you want to work outside the parameters of what Ubuntu currently does (and I agree, it may be a good idea), you gotta convince them to change it before you go ahead and write qanda and profile stuff
<froud> look at our custom layers
<mdke> i like the layers
<froud> hang on
<froud> "if you want to work outside the parameters"
<froud> dude I made the parameter
<mdke> answer me this
<froud> I am inside not outside
<mdke> does the faqguide.xml or installguide.xml open correctly in yelp
<mdke> ?
<froud> not, not intended to
<mdke> right
<mdke> were the docs released in hoary made in xml and compatible with yelp?
<froud> and why is that a problem
<froud> no
<mdke> don't be obtuse
<froud> no 
<froud> they were not
<mdke> look
<mdke> in my Ubuntu I have some xml files which get opened by yelp
<froud> we had to fix much to make it work dude
<mdke> ok
<froud> yes
<mdke> so you have changed the parameters since then
<froud> you know how much we had to go backward to make that work
<froud> no
<mdke> lets make it clear, I am _NOT_ saying it is a bad idea
<mdke> but it has to be decided properly
<froud> he he
<froud> I lov eyou
<froud> mdke: the picture is bigger than yelp
<mdke> yeah i know
<mdke> i'm simplifying
<mdke> to try and make myself clearer
<froud> mdke: I think everyone should read http://www.sagehill.net/docbookxsl/index.html
<mdke> everyone?
<froud> yes
<froud> it will clear up much talking
<mdke> froud, no one doubts your expertise
<mdke> i respect and admire you
<froud> I am proposing and currently using the full feature set of docbook
<mdke> I know that
<JonA> froud: Any particular sections of that document, or all of it?
<froud> its the only way to achieve our goals
<mdke> i am just trying to indicate to you the proper way to go about convincing Ubuntu of your ideas
<froud> all of it, importance on html
<mdke> the proper way is NOT to go ahead
<mdke> and then complain about noise
<froud> mdke: fine, but the ears may be deaf
<froud> open minds are needed
<mdke> if Ubuntu's ears are deaf, then the idea fails
<mdke> and Ubuntu loses out, if the idea was a good one
<mdke> that is their problem
<mdke> but you have to respect their processes
<froud> hmmm and all my work goes pooooof
<froud> no quite
<mdke> you have to respect the processes before doing the work
<froud> I have
<froud> and continue to
<mdke> listen sean we have both said everything we are gonna say now ;)
<froud> but convincing me on a technical issue when ppl dont have a technical understanding is not the way to do it
<mdke> we'll have to agree to disagree on this issue
<froud> I am hard to argue with on this subject :-)
<mdke> if the process works, the people will take into account the technical expertise of the person putting the proposal
<froud> the process does work I have pointe dto use cases
<froud> but that does not seem to be enough
* mpt wonders whether Microsoft and Apple ever considered using something like DocBook
<mdke> i mean the Ubuntu process
<froud> mpt: longhorn is based on docbook
<mpt> MAML is based on DocBook?
<mpt> It doesn't look very similar
<froud> the longhorn help system is based on docbook
<mpt> Well, it has <section> and <para>
<froud> mpt: http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/wlg/5917
<froud> mpt: ms took docbook and extended it then the closed it in a proprietry compiler and runtime
<mpt> Ah, they added stuff useful for help
<froud> http://www.help-info.de/en/Help_Info_Longhorn/longhorn_overview.htm
<mpt> like conditional text
<mpt> yes, I'd already seen that :-)
<froud> "Help authors will use Microsoft Assistance Markup Language (MAML), the XML-based markup language to develop "Longhorn" Help. MAML is based on the already available DocBook format."
<froud> the docbook community intends creating xsl for transformation of db 2 maml
<froud> the same way it has the html-help stylesheets
<froud> so that text done in docbook can be compiled into chm files
<froud> providing that ms keeps maml std open
<froud> they will do it
<froud> I think some are already working on it
<mpt> The "Semantic vs. presentation" section in that last link is why I (half-seriously) suggested HTML 1.0 as a good format for help
<froud> and it is a good suggestion
<froud> the problem is being able to deploy your own stylesheet
<froud> and this is one of the problems with yelp currently
<froud> you can't
<mpt> That's not a bug, it's a feature
<froud> well not easily
<froud> yeah feature
<froud> but if you want to make maximum us eof docbook you need to use all its features
<mpt> The point is not "to make maximum use of docbook"
<mpt> the point is "to help people use Ubuntu"
<froud> bingo
<mpt> Giving help different fonts/colors/padding/whatever per program does nothing to help people use Ubuntu
<mpt> it just makes things inconsistent
<froud> by using all docbook features we can do that
<froud> mpt: I am not on the presentational layer
<froud> I am on the semantic layer
<mpt> Apple messed that up when they did their help viewer
<froud> mpt: the reality is that it is not an easy ting
<mpt> All the system help was full of <p><font face="Geneva" size="2">foo</font></p> <p><font face="Geneva" size="2">bar</font></p>
<froud> od dear
<mpt> I wonder if it's like that now
* mpt looks
<mpt> As of 10.3 they're using WebKit to render the HTML
<mpt> so I guess it allows style sheets
<froud> mpt: as I said I think everyone must read http://www.sagehill.net/docbookxsl/index.html
<froud> then they can understand what I am on about
<froud> I want tools such as Index and Glossary
<mpt> wow, that looks like it'll take a few days to read
<froud> yeah and understand
<mdke> its not that we don't want the tools
<mdke> in my case, I am only talking about the right way to get them
<mpt> Yeah, Apple Help is still that bad
<mpt> A sample:
<froud> Ah Konqueror kioslaves help:fooapp
<froud> imagine you could do that in any gnome window
<mpt> <TR HEIGHT="1"><TD HEIGHT="1" WIDTH="157"></TD></TR><TR><TD WIDTH="157"><FONT FACE="Helvetica,Arial" SIZE="2"><B><A HREF="eq/eqRTOC.htm" TARGET="_right">Expanding your computer's capabilities</A></B></FONT></TD></TR>
<froud> mpt: well what can I say
<froud> I am not on about presentation layer or tools
<mpt> I'm *all* about the presentation layer :-)
<froud> what concerns me most is publishing features
<froud> yes
<froud> :-)
<froud> and I lov eyou for it
<froud> so I dont have to do it
<froud> but my aim is publishing features
<mpt> I thought an index would be useless given a search function
<froud> I want help but I also want printed books being shipped from shipit
<mpt> but from my reading, people like an index anyway
<mpt> books != help
<froud> correct
<mpt> For books, DocBook may be appropriate
<froud> !=
<mpt> For PDFs, probably not
<froud> bingo
<mpt> For help, perhaps
<froud> docbook good for books
<froud> hence all help in lin is books
<froud> DITA good for help
<mpt> which is broken
<froud> yes :-)
<froud> but I cant change that
<froud> I have enough of a battle with ubuntu, imagine taking on the whole FOSS world
<froud> DITA is much better for online help
<mpt> Breezy+1: take on Gnome :-)
<froud> mpt: one of the problems I have with your helful help proposal is based on this problem
<froud> I like th eidea
<froud> your think ing is spot on
<froud> but practical
<froud> it needs a different working emthod and writing style
<mpt> yep
<froud> but +1 for the direction
<froud> if you think you can turn everyone around then I will be their to help you :-)
<froud> of course I will cheer from the back :-)
<mpt> haha
<froud> but its a big bullet
<mpt> Well, first give Ubuntu decent help
<mpt> Then show Gnome people what it looks like
<froud> first convince them to use DITA
<froud> then train ppl to use DITA
<froud> then create the tools to display DITA
<froud> that's a long road
<froud> anyway, once you have read http://www.sagehill.net/docbookxsl/index.html maybe you will understand why I want to transform our xml to html at packaging time
<mpt> ugh, they don't even have example documents on the Web
<mpt> only in a zip
<froud> who
<mpt> IBM
<mpt> for DITA
<froud> right
<froud> the reality is that we will have to use DITA, but make it open at the applictaion layer ;-)
<mpt> So why is today the first time I've seen anyone mention it?
<froud> its not foss
<mpt> And does yelp support it?
<froud> I dunno
<froud> no way dude
<froud> :-) lolol
<froud> cough cough
<froud> mpt: so are you up to reforming the whole foss world
<mpt> All their examples are broken
<jsgotangco> hello
<froud> yes, no good examples
<froud> but trust me the DITA is best for help
<jsgotangco> ahem hello
<jsgotangco> :)
<mpt> hmm, no, actually, Firefox is broken
<froud> jsgotangco: hi
<mpt> Is Firefox supposed to support XSL?
<froud> no
<jsgotangco> are we talking about infrastructure again?
<mpt> that explains it, then
<froud> use IE
<froud> :-)
<froud> jsgotangco: just discussing mpts helpful help
<mpt> jsgotangco: Yeah, I was just sitting quietly by myself and froud jumped on me with a new file format for everyone to write help in
* froud slaps mpt
<froud> I did not jump you
<jsgotangco> new file format?
<froud> I am discussing helpful help
<jsgotangco> jeezz
<froud> no jsgotangco dont listen to him he is stirring
<mpt> jsgotangco: http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/xml/library/x-dita1/
<jsgotangco> DITA
<jsgotangco> NOOOOOOO
<mdke> *grins*
<mpt> Actually, now that I look more closely, that page has a heading starting with the word "Toward"
<mdke> i have been having a massive argument with froud about the best way to make his ideas heard
<froud> jsgotangco: if mpt is to realize the vision of helful help then DITA is the way
<mpt> Therefore, it is to be avoided
<froud> jsgotangco: that is true
<froud> :-)
<jsgotangco> 1 question
<froud> o hoh
<jsgotangco> POSSIBLE FOR BREEZY?
<froud> no way dude
<froud> its a revolution
<jsgotangco> :)
<froud> but mpt is spot on about how help should be written
<jsgotangco> ok let's say we're going to stir up the natives with DITA
<froud> but docbook is not as good as DITA for realizing what he is saying
<mpt> May 3rd, 2005 - Darwin Information Typing Architecture (DITA) v1.0 has been approved as an OASIS Standard.
<mpt> What was that you were saying about it not being FOSS, froud? :-)
<froud> yes
<froud> a standard
<jsgotangco> ok 
<froud> but not used in FOSS
<jsgotangco> its OASIS so i guess its worth looking
<froud> which is why I suggested it
<jsgotangco> froud: YELP/KHELPCENTER
<mdke> i'm off
<mdke> back later
<froud> off by
<jsgotangco> froud: BROWSER is the sure way to go for the future
<mdke> jsgotangco, will get the minutes out eventually
<froud> yes like kde
<jsgotangco> mdke thanks, i met some local Ubuntu enthusiasts at the mall today
<mpt> jsgotangco: as in HTML?
<froud> yes
<froud> kde does html
<jsgotangco> yes
<froud> but the kde doc respos in docbook
<froud> and is bigger than gnome
<jsgotangco> monodoc does it in html too
<froud> yes
* froud loves jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> mozembed, etc.
<mpt> jsgotangco: Why do you think Microsoft is moving away from HTML help?
<froud> they are not
<jsgotangco> compiled help?
<froud> mpt: ms is using xml as source and will transform to html on the fly
<mpt> froud: For their source
<froud> mpt: but once ms gets something they have the buck to make it work all the way, not like yelp
<froud> mpt: yes
<froud> MAML is just the src format
<froud> like db is to us
<mpt> You just told me you were on the semantic layer, froud
<froud> I am
<mpt> The semantic layer for WinHelp was HTML
<froud> its confusion for you
<mpt> now it will no longer be.
<froud> mpt: no
<froud> the src and the presentation layer for winhelp was html
<jsgotangco> eww
<froud> now MAML
<froud> xml is src (semantic)
<froud> the prsentation will be what ever you want
<jsgotangco> froud ok hold on
<jsgotangco> need to clear up something here
<froud> k
<jsgotangco> will this new thing you are proposing needs some special backend stuff or no
<froud> I am not proposing it, but yes
<froud> I am just saying that in order to do help like mpt describes you will need dita
<mpt> ENOTBREEZY
<jsgotangco> ok because anything that is "revolutionary" would definitely be a good candidate for our own linode server
<froud> time
<froud> time
<froud> time
<froud> who is gonna do all this
<froud> who has the time
<jsgotangco> froud if i get you the linode server, you can do whatever you want
<mpt> not me, I just want to write in a format that I can preview with a click of one button
<froud> jsgotangco: I am not sure we need it
<jsgotangco> we're not doing it then
<froud> no
<froud> it is a discussion
<froud> mpt: has spent lots of time writing HelpfulHelp
<jsgotangco> froud we can use ourr own svn instead of asking elmo
<jsgotangco> i've been reading about baz
<froud> it deserves discussion
<froud> our svn is fine
<froud> baz
<froud> hmmm
<froud> now
<froud> you're
<froud> talking
<froud> but I suggest we wait for bazaar-ng
<jsgotangco> that would take a while
<jsgotangco> i'd rrather wait for HCT
<froud> six months
<mpt> froud: Wait for bazaar-ng? Whatever for?
<froud> ui is par with svn
<jsgotangco> we can't avoid baz
<froud> bazaar becomes bzr
<froud> baz > bzr
<froud> there is an upgrade path
<froud> but you will have a mind bend on understanding distributed development
<froud> branches and merges are not part of the team reportior 
<froud> at present
<jsgotangco> yes
<froud> however
<froud> it is possible to do baz
<froud> without changing our work flow
<jsgotangco> id like to learn packaging our docs as well
<froud> one thing at a time
<jsgotangco> froud yes i know
<froud> if you want baz we can do it
<froud> I would suggest we not use branches at first
<froud> get ppl using the baz command
<jsgotangco> you want to test it out for experiments?
<froud> then later introduce branches
<froud> I alrweady am
<jsgotangco> where?
<froud> baz is the way forward
<froud> I have a branch of bazaar docs local
<froud> and I am running 1.4.1
<jsgotangco> no i mean mirrorr our existing trunk to a baz rep
<jsgotangco> and we play around with baz
<jsgotangco> and make a decision after brreezy
<froud> no need really
<froud> we currently have no need for baz
<froud> baz is a long term must
<jsgotangco> a long term should start somewhere
<froud> so you would be better served by learning baz on an existing project
<froud> like baz itself
<jsgotangco> you can say that
<froud> baz get http://bazaar.canonical.com/archives/thelove@canonical.com/bazaar-docs--devo--1.5 bazaar-docs
<froud> then make your branch off that
<froud> I suggest you upgrade to 1.4.1
<jsgotangco> what does that thing contain?
<froud> the baz docs
<froud> in ReST format
<jsgotangco> then just brach something else right
<jsgotangco> oh BTW
<jsgotangco> i almost forgot
<froud> you cannot commit to that drop
<jsgotangco> HAPPY FATHER'S DAY FROUD
<jsgotangco> HEHEHE
<froud> you must branch
<froud> our irght
<froud> btw I forgot
<froud> happy farthers day jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> gahh
<jsgotangco> farther?
<froud> oh and you have bunch of new patches to kwick guide
<froud> my fingers are numb
<froud> kwick guide is now valid and well formed
<jsgotangco> froud im not worrried about that doc anymore, the power of community is so evident on that book
<froud> I have fixed the sematics too
<froud> and added some text
<jsgotangco> ahh
<jsgotangco> i shoould check it out later it might be up for reviewing alrready
<froud> you shoul dbe able to yelp it nwo
<froud> I have marked parts complete
<jsgotangco> ahh thanks
<froud> np prblm great work though dude
<froud> well done
<jsgotangco> thanks
<jsgotangco> these new guys are great help
<froud> yep
<froud> the mor eppl the easier it becomes
<jsgotangco> i should make a wiki of doc progress
<froud> jsgotangco: I am asking everyone to read http://www.sagehill.net/docbookxsl/index.html
<froud> they need it in order to understand what I ahve done in svn
<jsgotangco> you messed up stuff again?
<froud> and to understand the debate raging on yelp 
<froud> no
<froud> its the same
<jsgotangco> ahhh wait i see it now
<jsgotangco> its the yelp thing
<jsgotangco> right
<froud> but I see ppl dont understand
<froud> why I want to write in docbook using all features
<froud> and transform to html for packaging
<jsgotangco> yes we've discussed about that
<jsgotangco> as well as saving some more space from the cd
<froud> yes but there is a new view
<JonA> froud: Post-transforming to HTML, what would be used to view it?
<froud> the view is that I have forced my opinion
<JonA> Am I right in understanding that Yelp can't render HTML?
<froud> JonA: it simply means we pack html
<jsgotangco> JonA: yelp can still do it
<froud> no
<JonA> Okay.
<froud> yelp reads html
<jsgotangco> JonA: but Yelp is doing so much at the same time, hence the speed
<froud> jsgotangco: http://www.sagehill.net/docbookxsl/index.html
<JonA> froud: Does Yelp support CSS?
<froud> yes
<froud> jsgotangco: [15:03]  <froud> the view is that I have forced my opinion
<jsgotangco> froud: i have this book
<JonA> Okay.
<froud> jsgotangco: the view is that I am working outside the parameters
<jsgotangco> hmmm
<froud> jsgotangco: as I explained to mdke I made them
<froud> not long ago I was the only person at docteam
<jsgotangco> froud, you were a good mentor
<froud> hence I made the parameters
<froud> thanks
<froud> so, mdke asked me
<froud> am I back with the team?
<froud> I said just visiting
<froud> why?
<mdke> because you're weird :p
<froud> I strongly believe that I am freaky
<froud> thank
<froud> no
<froud> really
<froud> I am convinced that the technical vision I have build is a good route
<mdke> you talk about "we", you test baz, you commit to our repository
<mdke> so YES you are back with the team
<froud> and does not exclude any options
<froud> mdke: ubuntu is a small part of my work in the foss world
<froud> I am not going to see the project and my work scrapped that easily
<mdke> its disconcerting to hear you say that you are just visiting, but yet you are doing lots of work
<froud> I test baz, because I am writing a book on baz
<jsgotangco> guys guys
<jsgotangco> let's clear this up
<froud> grrrrrr, woooooof, WOOF
<jsgotangco> froud
<froud> grrrrrr
<jsgotangco> hey
<froud> scratch scratch
<jsgotangco> jeezz
<froud> howl
<froud> WOOOOF
<jsgotangco> let me guess
<froud> go on guess
* froud is just having som efun
<jsgotangco> ok let me check the logs
<froud> why?
<froud> nothing there
<froud> yu dont know
<froud> teasing
<jsgotangco> forums meeting?
<froud> ouch dont go there
<mdke> there was a forum + CC meeting yesterday
<froud> that was rough
<mdke> i read the logs
<mdke> it wasn't that bad
<jsgotangco> in a nutshell?
<froud> he he
<froud> how many priv msg went on 
<jsgotangco> (not more than 10 words)
<mdke> you don't need to worry
<froud> yes there is love between docteam and forums
<froud> all ittook was to share a joint
<froud> and get the karma moving in the positive direction
* froud thinks the room is too serious today
<froud> who wants a fight?
<jsgotangco> i like it that way rright now, its a weekend i have all the time
<froud> cummon mdke 
<jsgotangco> my wife can wait
<mdke> froud, you need an arguments room
<froud> oooh that is dangerous
<jsgotangco> go to #war
<mdke> like in monty python
<froud> duke nukem
<mdke> "you're not arguing with me"
<mdke> "yes I am"
<froud> that's how we nee dto settole thing
<froud> mdke: just caus eyour a lawyer now, dont get smart
<froud> ;-)
<mdke> *grins*
<mdke> i was born like that
<mdke> ask my mother
<froud> poor brother
<froud> England vs, France in Durban today
<froud> Rugby
<mdke> rugby league?
<froud> let the boks chase some roosters around the feild
<froud> the real rugga yes
<froud> so jsgotangco what do you say
<jsgotangco> i say we become yelp compliant for gnome
<froud> grrrrr
<froud> wooof
<froud> and what about kde
<mdke> jsgotangco, i never said that
<mdke> i was just saying that changes need to be taken to the TB
<froud> no they dont
<jsgotangco> "they dont"
<froud> no
<mdke> i'm no gonna start again
<froud> you just di
<mdke> no/not
<froud> s/di/did
<mdke> i was clarifying my argument for jsgotangco 
<mdke> not starting again
<froud> excuses
* froud prods mdke with a spike
<froud> mdke: go read http://www.sagehill.net/docbookxsl/index.html
<froud> when you have read it, lets debate again
<mdke> i have better things to do
<froud> like
<jsgotangco> ok
<jsgotangco> i will say my piece
<mdke> our debate is based entirely on Ubuntu community governance, not on technical matters
<froud> what governance
<jsgotangco> hold on
<froud> we are the governance
<jsgotangco> hey hey
<mdke> froud, WRONG
<mdke> we are not the governance
<froud> greee
<froud> speak for yourself
<mdke> [14:30:47]  froud we are the governance
<mdke> man you don't know what you sound like
<mdke> I AM THE LAW!
<jsgotangco> jeeezz
<froud> mdke: if we agree then there is no need for it
<jsgotangco> JUDGE DREAD
<froud> you only invoke TB when we dont
<jsgotangco> great i just lost it
<froud> so far I have not seen you disagree
<froud> just calling for aTB
<mdke> correct
<froud> why
<mdke> because your changes involve changes to the distribution
<froud> there is no disagree in the team?
<mdke> these decisions are not yours to make
<froud> no they dont
<jsgotangco> HEY HEY HEY
<mdke> anyway
<mdke> i gotta go out for a while
<froud> whether we pack xml or html is a semantic
<froud> pack html and we can do what we like, not what yelp only wants
<froud> jsgotangco: I am listening
<jsgotangco> like i said, we will be yelp compliant
<froud> heh e
<jsgotangco> but ok how do i start this
<jsgotangco> hrmm
<froud> give a good reason why html is notyelp compliant
* froud goes to the boys room
<jsgotangco> grr
<jsgotangco> ok hmm
<jsgotangco> ok now i know what to say
<jsgotangco> ok
<jsgotangco> froud: you've attended the meeting and did fix up some stuff in our svn, now that we had the meeting and everything, what you say about your status in this "team"
<froud> I need to know if we are going ahead with the parameters and work method I have set months ago
<froud> if I am forced to work in a way that I think is inferior they I am not here
<froud> I am visiting now
<jsgotangco> what would these parameters be for the sake of the logs
<froud> and I am doing cause I dont want a huge load to fix
<froud> simple we use all docbook publishing features
<froud> we ship html
<froud> end
<jsgotangco> why do you think html is the best way to ship
<froud> freedom, power of control, desktop independance, greater functionality in our source and processing options
<froud> the list is long
<jsgotangco> ok
<froud> ask what is the benefit of shipping xml
<jsgotangco> i was about to
<jsgotangco> go on
<froud> answer there is none
<jsgotangco> why is that?
<froud> its the same amount of data
<froud> there are limitations to shipping xml
<froud> 1. xml src must be yelp readable
<froud> 2. yelp does not support all docbook
<froud> 3. yelp must transform inline to html to view (slow)
<froud> 4. only yelp reads gnome compliant xml
<froud> 5. xref between docs is proprietry to yelp
<froud> cant work anywhere else
<jsgotangco> ok
<jsgotangco> fair enough
<jsgotangco> its pretty obvious on point 3
<jsgotangco> and 2
<froud> jsgotangco: ask what is xml for?
<froud> why do we have xml at all
<jsgotangco> go on
<froud> xml is a presentation neutral format for storage of documents and data
<froud> period
<jsgotangco> correct
<froud> it was not intended as a presentation layer
<froud> over to you
<jsgotangco> hmm
<jsgotangco> what would be the limitations if we ship in html
<froud> none
<jsgotangco> oh come on
<froud> there are none
<froud> really
<froud> its that simple
<froud> only good stuff
<froud> jsgotangco: I am not a person to use technology for techno sake
<froud> like the baz thing
<jsgotangco> i understand this thing enough since ive worked a lot with Rosettanet
<froud> truth, we dont need it now
<froud> truth baz is must for long term
<jsgotangco> hence the reason for stuff like docbookxsl and stuff
<froud> we still ship xml to rosetta
<froud> jsgotangco: I am losing you
<jsgotangco> froud: i undestand the reasons why we don't need to ship xml
<froud> k
<jsgotangco> RosettaNet is a differrent xml thing not totally rreleated to Canonical's Rosetta
<jsgotangco> (its a languange for semicon/electrornics fims)
<froud> OH
<froud> k
<jsgotangco> We do stuff in HTML too from a RosettaNet XML
<froud> why?
<jsgotangco> (freaking source needs to be transferred between machines)
<froud>  hehe exactly
<froud> xml is for exchange
<froud> not presentation
<jsgotangco> anyway that's beside the point
<jsgotangco> yes
<jsgotangco> ok
<froud> very much the point
<jsgotangco> anyway
<froud> anyway
<froud> jsgotangco: who is the docteam
<froud> I mean who are the members
<froud> active ones
<froud> you, me, mdke, jeff-away, jjesse, and two new people
<froud> 6 ppl
<froud> right
<jsgotangco> right
<froud> ok now do any of those six disagree with me on shipping html?
<froud> I have not had any disagreement
<froud> but ppl what a TB
<froud> waste of time and IMHO not required
<froud> jsgotangco: we are first and formost our own tb
<jsgotangco> wait wait
<jsgotangco> we're talking about the technical merits of the documentation
<jsgotangco> format, repo, etc.
<froud> what do they matter so long as we can ship docs
<froud> jsgotangco: how we work technically is our problem
<froud> provided that we can package at the end
<froud> there is no problem
<jsgotangco> dude
<froud> to have a TB deciding whether we can or cant ship HTML is so trivial a point that it is not worth it
<froud> jsgotangco: I am listening
<jsgotangco> i believe the TB doesn't have to decide on that, we are a completely volunteer driven project
<froud> +1
<froud> its not about the part line or toeing it
<froud> its about what we want
<froud> our collective makes it work
<froud> and what matter is those who are committing to our src
<froud> then our product must matter to users
<froud> not the format
<froud> users dont read the xml
<froud> hell most dont even know th edifference
<froud> users read text and pictures
<jsgotangco> give me a minute to think
<froud> so if asked to decide between technology and publishing features
<jsgotangco> just go on
<froud> which would you choose
<froud> btw anyone is welcome to join this discussion
<froud> which would you choose?
<froud> Hmm, silence
<froud> am I so wrong for choosing publishing features
<froud> If ppl disagree pls let me know
<jsgotangco> sorry
<froud> what for?
<jsgotangco> i was out fo a while
<jsgotangco> anyway
<froud> which would you choose?
<jsgotangco> i don't see the problem on the technical side, you have all the facts of the case
<jsgotangco> i think i see the problem is how you present it to the people telling the shots on the whole project
<froud> ok now this is the problem
<froud> it is indicative of what ppl are doing
<froud> they dont have all the info
<froud> but want to dismiss what I am saying
<froud> I have yet to see a credible argument against the case I have set forth
<froud> if light of that I see no need for a TB
<jsgotangco> they're the ones packaging to begin with
<froud> ok, listening
<froud> what are they
<jsgotangco> did you get to talk to jdub alrerady?
<froud> jsgotangco: no
<froud> jsgotangco: pls install diveintopython
<froud> then look at the docs
<froud> you will see html
<froud> not xml
<froud> so what is the problem with packaging
<jsgotangco> that's intsalled by default
<froud> Oh yes
<froud> well take a look
<jsgotangco> yes i rread that :)
<jsgotangco> it loads a hell lot faster
<froud> ok so what is the packaging problem to start with
<froud> jsgotangco: there is none
<jsgotangco> like i said
<jsgotangco> this is more about communication ratherr than technicalities
<froud> now do you really still think we need a TB to decide what file format we ship?
<jsgotangco> i'd ather say we need the TB to tell what we decide to ship given that "we" is every active member in this team and not just you
<froud> jsgotangco: I suspect this is a religious question not a technical one
<froud> we dont need a TB
<froud> dude about ubuntu was shippe din hoary as HTML
<jsgotangco> opened in FF
<froud> I ask with tears in my eyes, why the hell do we need a TB to tell us what we ship
<jsgotangco> who packages our stuff
<froud> jsgotangco: we do
<jsgotangco> who specifically
<froud> see /debian
<froud> enrico: or me
<froud> but anyone can do it
<jsgotangco> you upload to main?
<froud> enrico: is whitelisted
<jsgotangco> ok so its enrico
<froud> he just uploads
<froud> cause he has the rights
<jsgotangco> ok
<froud> jsgotangco: question
<jsgotangco> shoot
<froud> jsgotangco: do you agree that I have been more than forthcomming about empowering ppl here at ubuntu-doc
<jsgotangco> i feel that people look up to you because of your technical knowledge on the subject matter, thus have trust on you
<froud> have I, or not, imparted expertise and supported ppl as they learn
<jsgotangco> froud, you've been a good mentor to me
<froud> and others
<froud> why do I do this
<jsgotangco> i cannot say
<froud> why do I bother
<froud> answer
<froud> because I want ppl to have the knowledge to do things
<froud> because I do not want to be the sole person knowing how it works
<jsgotangco> yes you've told me that on email
<froud> hence you may have noticed that I said I want to take more of a back seat
<froud> because I want this team to take ownership
<froud> its not about me in th eleast
<jsgotangco> one question though
<jsgotangco> are you willing to lead it
<froud> yes
<froud> and I take flack for it
<jsgotangco> do you envision this team to become an official project
<froud> my actions are focus on two things
<froud> it only attianed that status last meeting
<froud> focus :
<froud> 1.
<froud> get people skilled to write the docs
<froud> 2.
<froud> get the docs written
<froud> that is my entire focus
<froud> simple
<froud> hence I spend time helping and fixing stuff as people work
<froud> answering technical questions
<froud> always transfering knowledge
<froud> at present I am not the leader of this team
<froud> nobody is
<froud> I have said and say again
<jsgotangco> perhaps that is the weakest link?
<froud> everyone here is empowered to do
<froud> perhaps
<froud> but at the same time
<froud> I do lead without being the official leader
<jsgotangco> ok one thing more
<froud> and as that is my position I must take strong decision sometimes
<froud> yes
<jsgotangco> hmm nevermind
<froud> jsgotangco: if I dont make technical decisions, who will
<jsgotangco> ok so you think the existing team won't make it without you
<froud> no
<froud> but it will struggle
<froud> that is why
<froud> I am imparting knowledge at a very high rate
<froud> because I do not want a single point of failure
<jsgotangco> dude
<jsgotangco> you said before
<froud> but until such time as we have commiters who are here day in and out
<jsgotangco> people come and go
<froud> I will hold this together
<froud> the only way to prevent problems is to build a stong community in numbers
<froud> that community must have the knowlegde or they have no power
<froud> they will flounder
<froud> and things will go wrong
<froud> it may be years before the realize it
<jsgotangco> hmmm
<froud> that is why my first aim is to impart knowledge
<froud> I want ppl who understand it like I do
<froud> so there is less potential for problem
<froud> so that ppl can decide based on intellect not on the whim of a religious direction
<froud> jsgotangco: you ask, have I spoken to jdub
<jsgotangco> yes
<froud> I said no
<froud> but is it really important
<froud> is jdub a big factor in this team today
<froud> is he working in svn
<froud> has he edited or written any of our work
<froud> can you really say that he has enough information to make a decision for us as a team?
<froud> I dont think so
<froud> jdub has his merits
<froud> writing and building a docteam is not one of them
<froud> so am I back?
<jsgotangco> point taken
<jsgotangco> wait abit
<jsgotangco> i have one question that may offend you, hope not
<froud> go ahead
<jsgotangco> you don't need to answer it
<jsgotangco> do you have business interests in this team as an official project given that its majority of work is what you do for a living
<froud> jsgotangco: I am here of my own accord. I am not employed by canonical, I am employed by myself. FOSS is a big part of my business. Do I make money from my work here? yes, most definatley
<froud> but it does not come from canonical
<jsgotangco> what do you mean "here"
<froud> here at ubuntu-doc
<jsgotangco> i don't get it
<froud> jsgotangco: do I have an investment in ubuntu
<froud> yes
<jsgotangco> ok
<froud> I have invested hors of my time
<froud> I have a master plan
<froud> just the way sabdfl does
<froud> but that is my private issue
<jsgotangco> froud we all have our own "sinister" plans :)
<froud> while I am here I work for the good of the project
<froud> I make my decisions based on that good
<froud> when I first came here
<froud> ppl did not understand me
<froud> I found an svn server sitting on john hornbecks home pc
<jsgotangco> hold on
<jsgotangco> hold on
<jsgotangco> im trying to digest the last statement
<jsgotangco> "Do I make money from my work here (ubuntu-doc)"
<froud> I started building and I am still building, at first I was just building framework
<jsgotangco> "Yes"
<froud> yes
<froud> I do
<froud> truth
<froud> but not from canonical
<jsgotangco> "I have an investment in Ubuntu"
<froud> yes
<froud> I have a business plan
<jsgotangco> support?
<froud> my investment in time now will pay back later
<froud> dont ask me to answer that question
<jsgotangco> ok
<froud> that is my priv stuff
<jsgotangco> "but not from canonical"
<froud> jsgotangco: if canonical want to pay me I will not say no
<froud> but I doubt that will happen
<jsgotangco> "but not from canonical" -> i really don't get this, but im not going to ask
<froud> [16:35]  <froud> I started building and I am still building, at first I was just building framework
<jsgotangco> ok
<froud> now I am bulding ppl like you
<jsgotangco> go on with hornbeck
<froud> and mdke
<jsgotangco> (he's writing a book with APress BTW)
<froud> since somming here we have a canonical hosted svn server
<froud> I have built a two frameworks
<froud> and assisted many to get working
<froud> may aim is still to continue building
<froud> along the way I may seem hard headed
<jsgotangco> what is this framework
<jsgotangco> how did we get in
<froud> but look closer and you will see that it is not without reason
<froud> the file system you see today was hours of work
<froud> the ents and the processing system all takes time
<jsgotangco> yeah
<froud> I still need to finish the system for breezy
<froud> so I am not the leader
<froud> but I am until such time as I see ppl can make technically sound decisions
<froud> I know this sounds arrogant
<froud> but its not
<froud> I am just trying to ensure that things stay on the rails
<froud> jsgotangco: what's your vision for this team
<froud> I dont think anyone here has one
<froud> my vision
<jsgotangco> i'm still thinking about it, now that im doing admin work for this team
<jsgotangco> froud, but it will rely a bit on your knowledge
<froud> a great technically competant group capable of building and maintianing docs in a large environment for multiple distros based on ubuntu
<froud> I want to see electronic help yes.
<froud> but more than that I want to see books, a box and cds packaged
<froud> I want to see a packaged product distributed from shipit
<froud> that is my goals
<froud> ultimate goal
<froud> I say too much
<jsgotangco> go on this is good
<froud> sabdfl and I have one thing in common
<froud> we are not thinking small
<froud> that is a hint
<froud> now I must go as I promised my family we would eat out
<jsgotangco> ok
<jsgotangco> i appreciate this
<froud> hope this chat for the record gives ppl some insight into myself
<froud> insight I have not shared until now
<froud> perhaps you can now understand why I say that I am visiting
<jsgotangco> its your decision
<froud> when I see the team join ranks and focus, then I am back :-)
<froud> because then I know that external stuff will not stop them
<froud> and they believe in themselves
<froud>  c ya
<jsgotangco> ok cya
<mdke> [15:54:45]  froud hope this chat for the record gives ppl some insight into myself
<mdke> jeez
<jsgotangco> :)
<mdke> <froud> I started building and I am still building, at first I was just building framework
<mdke> froud now I am bulding ppl like you
<mdke> count me out for the "being built by froud" game
<jsgotangco> arrggghhh
<jsgotangco> mdke, me too!!!
<froud> mdke: jsgotangco so you dont want help on doing things
<froud> you know its amazes me just how when jsgotangco arrived he knew nothing about svn or docbook and now he has written a book. Hmm, perhaps if I had jsut sat there and done nothing to help, we would have had the same outcome
<jsgotangco> that chat just made me feel used ok, i am quite upset at the moment, but i have the weekend to think about
<froud> well I am pissed too
<froud> because the team has not even trusted in what I have done
<jsgotangco> i actually trust what was done
<froud> instead at every stage I have heard TB but nobody has come with facts
<froud> perhaps jsgotangco I should not give supporyt
<jsgotangco> froud, that is for you to decide
<froud> perhaps I should not help people with the things they are doing or answer questions
<froud> when things get tough, I at least looked for support form the team
<froud> instead I got the opposite
<froud> dude that pissed me off bad
<froud> ever since that thread with jdub
<froud> practically nobody rallied to help me
<froud> or argued against me
<froud> two ppl had any support for me
<froud> jjesse and enrico
<froud> now perhaps I should not build newcommers to the project
<froud> perhaps I should just leave them to their own devices
<froud> say what you like about me I have given in big way
<jsgotangco> froud, you misjudge too soon in a 2 word statement
<froud> [17:14]  <mdke> count me out for the "being built by froud" game
<froud> [18:21]  <jsgotangco> mdke, me too!!!
<froud> thanks alot
<froud> I see that speaking to the team and explaining myside has not helped anything. Sorry I exposed my inner side
<mdke> froud, give me a minute
<mdke> first, let me say that I am grateful and happy about the support you provided for me and others
<mdke> second, let me explain what I meant
<mdke> your comment about building people implied that you were moulding the team members according to your plan for how things should happen. this was patronising and made myself and jerome both feel used
<mdke> I believe that you are very technically gifted and an asset to the team
<mdke> however, you must learn to work as a team
<mdke> IMHO
<mdke> <-- said his piece
<jsgotangco> this "grand plan" without me knowing really pissed me
<jsgotangco> (although its a nice plan)
<froud> mdke: I am insterested in building people like jsgotangco and yourself
<mdke> well forget it
<mdke> we are not lego
<froud> people who want to saty and build it together
<froud> people who care to work on the docs
<jsgotangco> we intend to stay and I intend to fix this
<froud> many who come here do not know what to do with svn or docbook
<jsgotangco> but i am not limiting myself to Ubuntu docs and would prefer to work with others as well
<froud> I see myself imparting knowlegde and so building expertise
<froud> but I dont want to waste that energy on just anyone
<froud> jsgotangco: but the stength of the team is internal first, then it can work with external
<froud> jsgotangco: I have seen it time and again
<jsgotangco> like i said, you are very good at mentoring
<froud> each time the team tries going external, all falls apart
<JonA> froud: From an outsiders perspective, how do you decide who is worthy of your knowledge or not?
<froud> those who I see are trying
<froud> JonA: those who I see doing patches
<mdke> i love the idea that we must earn froud's knowledge
<froud> even thjough they are muddling their way thru
<froud> mdke: dude that is not how its meant and you know it
<froud> mdke: sarcasm is not for you
<mdke> froud, i know that, but look at JonA's reaction
<froud> he had a good question
<froud> nothing read into it
<mdke> ok
<froud> just the question
<mdke> perhaps i misunderstood then
<froud> OK let me ask JonA 
<jsgotangco> i thought the same way as mdke
<jsgotangco> (on that question)
<froud> JonA hows is your knowledge of svn and docbook
<froud> is it good
<froud> OK, lets try another oute
<froud> JonA what books will you be working on
<JonA> I know quite a bit about SVN (I've set up a few repositories at work and things), and my docbook is okay - I get the whole concept, I've written lots of markup-language documents before.
<froud> cool so you will not need help
<froud> which books are you working on or will you be working on
<JonA> froud: I'll be working on whatever is needed. As I mailed to the list, I've done quite a bit of technical journalism, which usually involves explaining concepts to people, and I think those skills can apply to documentation in general.
<froud> cool so how about the gnome user guide
<froud> is that something you can sink your teeth into
<JonA> I'm quite happy to work on that - it would be useful to be told which areas need work, or special attention.
<froud> JonA: I am assuming you have already done an svn checkout
<froud> well gnome user guide needs love
<JonA> froud: No, I haven't.
<JonA> froud: I was waiting for some direction first :-)
<froud> Hmm
<froud> Ok would you like me to help you now
<mdke> JonA, I am writing up the minutes from the meeting now, hopefully we will assign documents as we agreed then, with individuals taking responsibility for each doc
<JonA> froud: Thanks for the offer, but I'm about to go off and see my girlfriend :-)
<froud> mdke: JonA wants to work on anything
<froud> OK well when you have the time I will be happy to help you
<mdke> sure he seemed prepared to take responsibility for a gnome doc
<JonA> mdke: If you'll be posting the minutes and tasks to the mailing lists, I'll respond there.
<mdke> he can basically have first pick ;)
<mdke> JonA, yes
<mdke> that's the best idea
<froud> mdke: its things like this that I have been doing allot
<JonA> I'd also quite like to have a go at the 'About Ubuntu' document which is the firefox default home page. I think it needs some work.
<mdke> cool
<froud> building the team and building ppl
<mdke> froud, now we can do it as a team
<froud> it always was as a team
<froud> but if I did not help you and jsgotangco and many others
<mdke> JonA, I am not sure whether the document you see in firefox is the same as the one that appears when you do "about ubuntu" from the menu
<mdke> but the one in svn is the one that you get from the menu
<JonA> mdke: It isn't here (Hoary).
<jsgotangco> froud, i'm grateful for that so is mdke, but it won't work if you won't let us do some stuff that might work as well :)
<JonA> Is the one I saw on Mako's webspace the one that is under consideration for the 'About Ubuntu' menu?
<froud> jsgotangco: I have been
<jsgotangco> froud, if we fail, we learn
<froud> jsgotangco: I have been transfering skills since the beginning
<jsgotangco> froud, or else, we'll be nothing more than froud clones, IMO
<mdke> JonA, you don't have it in your gnome system menu?
<froud> jsgotangco: it is goo dto fail yes
<froud> equally good if you have help
<mdke> transferring skills = good, transferring views = bad
<JonA> The one I have under System opens up in Yelp.
<mdke> JonA, that is right
<froud> jsgotangco: now that is up to you
<froud> jsgotangco: you are your own personality
<froud> and I have never tried to impose on it
<mdke> but the team isnt
<mdke> it needs one
<froud> jsgotangco: when you started kwick guide
<JonA> mdke: Ah, right. I'd really like to fix the Firefox default page, though. It's far too dense.
<froud> did I interfer
<froud> did I get in your way
<froud> or did I support
<mpt> The idea that a Web browser's home page should be a manifesto is broken anyway
<jsgotangco> froud: i patterned on what you did
<froud> jsgotangco: your choice
<mpt> It should be http://news.google.com/
<JonA> mpt: True. The firefox start pages you get with vanilla Firefox are much better, they're more about branding and they're easy to read.
<mdke> JonA, in theory the firefox default page should also be generated from that document, if it hasn't been, that is an oversight in packaging
<mdke> mpt, i took that up on -devel once
<JonA> mdke: Understood
<froud> jsgotangco: I let you go, you did well, and I fixed stuff when I had time
<mpt> or http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Randompage
<mpt> or something interesting :-)
<mdke> mpt, they didn't like the idea
<froud> jsgotangco: stuff like incorrect ,markup
<mdke> mpt, they want the browser to open up to an offline document
<JonA> Okay, I have to go now. Speak later.
<mdke> JonA, thanks :)
<mpt> mdke: Yeah, I remember ... But, you know, it's a *Web* browser
<mdke> mpt, i couldn't agree more
<mpt> hmmm, what's the URL of that page?
<mpt>  /usr/something
<mpt> it had "artwork" somewhere in it too, for added amusement
<mdke> yeah it ships with ubuntu-artwork i think
<mdke> maybe that is an issue to chase up with -devel
<mpt> whoa
* mpt comes across ubuntu-docs/artwork/
<jsgotangco> NOOOOO :)
<mpt> gah
<jsgotangco> i hope you leaving wasn't about the artwork
<mpt> no, it was about clicking the wrong button in the panel
<mpt> Those Ubuntu logos aren't real
<mpt> the dots are too small
<jsgotangco> mpt, you can tell the ubuntu people behind the official artworrk then, to share whatever is needed to make good/official looking ones
<mpt> I thought there were SVGs on the wiki
<mpt> hmmm, maybe I'm confusing the Ubuntu wiki with the Canonical wiki
<jsgotangco> i once asked for artwork from the CD
<mdke> shit
<jsgotangco> happens?
<mdke> firefox has crashed and i've lost the damn meeting minutes
<jsgotangco> i love you mdke
<mdke> well that's not gonna bring em back
<mpt> Hmm, I don't see the SVG anywhere
<mpt> bing bing bing bing bing
<mpt> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuArtwork
<jsgotangco> i think that's just logos
<mpt> which is what we were looking for, right?
<mpt> <jsgotangco> mpt, you can tell the ubuntu people behind the official artworrk then, to share whatever is needed to make good/official looking ones
<mpt> Oh, but they're all missing because of the wiki transfer
<mpt> muahaha
<mdke> yeah
<mpt> When is that being fixed?
<mdke> soon
<mdke> right now the missing images are at the following address, but there are no svgs
<mdke> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/htdocs/lostimages/
<mpt> Well, they're all PNGs
<mpt> Maybe Henrik just pulled *.png out of the backup?
<mpt> and needs to do *.jpg, *.jpeg, *.svg, *.gpl, and *.aco as well
<mpt> durn file extensions
<mdke> i'll mention it
<mdke> but i'm not sure
<jeffsch> howdy folks
<jsgotangco> hey jef
* jeffsch reads the backlogs
<jsgotangco> no no no don't go there
<mpt> heh
<jsgotangco> we're sorting it out now
* jeffsch *gasp!* this could take a while...
<jsgotangco> jeffsch, we're just talking about sinister plans right now
<jeffsch> mmmmm.... s i n i s t e r
<mdke> yeah those logs are phat
<jeffsch> cool man, them logs are hot! :-)
<jsgotangco> oh man i think we can also name ourrselves the Legion of Doom
<jeffsch> say, has anyone hinted at taking the lead on user guide?
<mpt> Not just sinister, but also grand
<mpt> Does wiki.ubuntu.com do categories?
<mdke> yes
<mdke> jeffsch, are you interested in it?
<mdke> mpt, you'll see the categories under the edit box when editing a page
<mdke> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpOnCategories
<jeffsch> mdke: maybe. my biggest limit is time... I barely have enough now for the style guide
<mpt> hmmm, you can have only one category per page
<jeffsch> i was thinking of replacing the "spec here" on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UserGuide
<mdke> mpt, i'm not sure
<mdke> jeffsch, if you want to take lead on it I'm sure you are very welcome
<mdke> i have been doing a little work on it, but I don't think that I will be able to take lead
<mdke> mpt, maybe you can have more than one per page
<mdke> mpt, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MatthewEast
<mpt> ugh, the text boxes, they're all brown
<mdke> mpt, anyhow, it works
<mdke> mpt, create the page CategoryWhatever and put in [[FullSearch()] ] 
<mpt> maybe there should be a CategoryDevelopment?
<jeffsch> i just created CategoryDocteam on StyleGuide wiki page
<jeffsch> now there is a CategoryDocteam wiki page that needs creating...
<mpt> heh, we really need subcategories
<mpt> CategoryDevelopment = {CategoryDocTeam, CategoryUdu, CategoryPackaging...}
<mdke> well you can play around with it ;)
<mdke> create the categories, then slowly the pages will be categorised
<mpt> Subcategories would require category support in the wiki software itself
<mpt> The wikis as they are have nothing to do with Moin, they're just link-detection
<mpt> The categories as they are, I mean
<mdke> yes i have no idea is subcategories are possible
<mdke> is/if
<jeffsch> don't categories work the same way as parenting did in zwiki?
<mdke> not quite
<mdke> its basically a search mechanism i think
<mdke> you go to CategoryBlah, it will tell you all the pages which contain the word "CategoryBlah", via a search implemented by [[FullSearch()] ] 
<jeffsch> ok, look at CategoryDocteam... i have added user guide to it.
<mdke> thats it
<jeffsch> nothing stops anyone from adding CategoryWhatever to user guide also
<mdke> we should have a CategoryDocumentation too
<mdke> for the guides and stuff from UserDocumentation/talk
<mdke> all in good time...
<jsgotangco> this channel is so much betterr when we were having a fight
<jsgotangco> :)
<jeffsch> ok then, lets add CategoryDocumentation, and then add user guide to it
<mdke> userguide is more Docteam I think
<jeffsch> but it
<jeffsch> oops
<jeffsch> but it is also part of documentation, no?
<mdke> it will be when it is release with breezy
<mdke> here's how i see it, docteam = stuff internal to our process, documentation = howtos on the wiki
<jeffsch> and where does user guide fit? it is internal, but only sort-of internal
<mdke> well it is one of our projects
<mdke> its not documentation until it is released imo
<mdke> then hopefully it will be on the static part of the website
<jeffsch> a DocteamWorkInProgress category then?
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> i dunno mate
<mdke> to be honest I don't think it matters hugely
<mdke> i'd tend to limit the docteam category to just one
<mdke> if there are loads of categories they will be a bitch to maintain ;)
<jeffsch> true
<mdke> Be BaCk LaTeR
<jeffsch> [11:07]  <jsgotangco> this channel is so much betterr when we were having a fight
<jeffsch> sorry to bore you! 
<jsgotangco> :)
<jsgotangco> its 2AM
<jsgotangco> heh
<jsgotangco> wow i didnt notice mdke has access to the channel now
<mdke> back
<mdke> are you doing an all-nighter?
<mdke> jsgotangco ^
<jsgotangco> no froud and i are still doing the sinister grand plan
<mdke> i c
* mpt finishes writing up instructions on merging udu.wiki.ubuntu.com into wiki.ubuntu.com
<mdke> *laughs*
<mdke> instructions?
<mdke> is -devel up for it?
<mdke> mpt, they could have wiki.ubuntu.com/udu if they wanted
<mpt> Oh, that would be too easy :-P
<mpt> And there would be no point
<mdke> no?
<mpt> The point is that (a) many of the documents on the UDU wiki are going to remain relevant at, and after, the next conference
<mdke> there is already /forum and /doc
<mdke> anyhow
<mpt> and (b) some of the documents on the UDU wiki have out-of-date siblings with the same name on wiki.ubuntu.com.
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> the idea of merging is a decent one
<mdke> it would just be a "cp" afaik ;)
<mdke> maybe silbs/henrik have got it in mind already
<mpt> no, quite a bit more complicated
<mpt> Well, I was replying to Henrik
<mdke> ah i c
<mdke> cool
<mpt> because for (b) I suspect quite a few of the wiki.ubuntu.com pages have been edited since UDU by people who didn't realize the UDU equivalent exists, OR the UDU pages were developed by people who didn't realize the wiki.ubuntu.com equivalent existed.
<mpt> AND/OR, even.
<mdke> yes possibly
<mpt> and because there are people like JaneW who are *only* interested in UDU pages
<mdke> *grins*
<mdke> isn't that a decent argument for having /udu?
<mpt> No, it's a decent argument for having CategoryUdu :-)
<mdke> well it certainly is
<mdke> the lists still haven't woken up?
<mpt> what lists? woken up how?
* mpt goes back to sleep
<jsgotangco> wake up its barely 7am on yourside
<robitaille> lists are still dead...and elmo has been idle for 10+ hours.  It's so quiet today in Ubnutu-land
<jsgotangco> its just 3am here
<robitaille> maybe I should visit ubuntuforums to get my fix of questions from users
<mdke> *laughs*
<mdke> or #ubuntu
<mdke> or you can try crack
<robitaille> #ubuntu is probably more addictive...
<jsgotangco> mdke what is with this forum thing
* mpt realizes a great way to write an Ubuntu book
<jsgotangco> i barely go there
<jsgotangco> mpt: how
<mpt> Not telling :-P
<jsgotangco> ok you could have just kept it yourself intead of us thinking of another conspiracy theory
<jsgotangco> on books
<mdke> jsgotangco, we had a bit of an argument with the forum the other day, it escalated needlessly. Hopefully it is sorted now. I exchanged some messages with the forum guy about it, seems that the problem is dealt with.
<mpt> Yes, if a publisher wants to find someone to write an Ubuntu book, it *must* be a conspiracy
<jsgotangco> what issue?
<mpt> It's a physical law of the Ubuntu universe
<mdke> jsgotangco, it was not doc related, don't worry, you should go to sleep
<jsgotangco> i still have my CSI kit here
<mdke> *laughs*
<jsgotangco> im still tryring to rread between the lines
<jsgotangco> on the chat transcrripts here
<mdke> Kinnison, how about dr who eh? awesome or what?
<jsgotangco> ok the tea has already dried up in my blood stream
<mdke> no...
<mdke> more...
<mdke> tea...
<jsgotangco> i gotta sleep
<jsgotangco> later
<mdke> nite
<jsgotangco> i had an interesting night heh
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> now go to your wife
<mdke> poor woman
<jeffsch> jsgotangco: sleep already! :-)
<jsgotangco> bah
<jeffsch> mdke: did you really lose the minutes after a ff crash?
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> but i've finished em again now
<mdke> they are not long tbh
<jeffsch> i'm curious... how does a browser lose a doc?
<mdke> i was writing it on wiki
<mdke> opened mplayer plugin in another tab
<mdke> CRASH
<jeffsch> ahhhh. tough break
<mdke> np
<mdke> it wasn't a lot
<mdke> actually I think they are done now
<mdke> it is quite a skeletal summary
<mdke> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeamMeetingSummary5
<mdke> feel free to do any corrections
<jeffsch> i liked the "project owner" idea
<mdke> everyone did afaics
<mdke> Burgundavia is our "ideas man" :)
<jeffsch> yeah. He's also good at finding stuff for us to look at
<mdke> you betcha
<mdke> ok i've posted the summary to ubuntu-doc and ubuntu-devel, it will be there WHEN THE SERVERS ARE UP!!!!
<mdke> *cough*
<jeffsch> mdke: OT. what episode of dr who are you at in the UK?
<mdke> last one just finished
<jeffsch> the last one shown here, you guys almost lost Cardiff
<mdke> ah
<mdke> the best one ever is next
<mdke> penultimate
<jeffsch> daliks!!!
* mdke nods slowly
<mdke> its a two parter
<mdke> so the last episode concludes it
<jeffsch> i have to wait until tuesday for part one
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> or you could download it ;)
<mdke> not that I would condone that sort of thing
<mdke> but waiting for them is quite good, it builds anticipation ;)
<mdke> ok i'm going for a walk
<mdke> too much time has been spent indoors today
<jeffsch> me gotta go to. fridge is empty. :(
<jeffsch> cya
<mdke> bye:)
#ubuntu-doc 2005-06-26
<squinn> mdke, how are those minutes coming ^^? lol
<squinn> Oh, up, cool.
<JonA> squinn: On the mainling list, or online?
<JonA> *mailing
<squinn> Online, JonA.
<JonA> squinn: Thanks.
<squinn> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeamMeetingSummary5
<squinn> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeamMeeting20050616 as well
<squinn> Welcome back, Seveas.
<Seveas> ty
<mdke> ooh is the list back?
<mdke> on
<mdke> damn, still nothing
<Seveas> was just gonna say it ;)
<Seveas> what's up with the lists anyway?
<mdke> how are ya Seveas 
<Seveas> not too bad
<Seveas> been manually compiling C code today (and that means manually writing assembly crap)
<Seveas> so i'm kinda cooked :)
<mdke> *grins*
<squinn> mdke, sorry I had to leave meeting. I can volunteer for some projects..if I'm neeed.
<squinn> needed.*
<mdke> squinn, that is cool. Check out the docteam wiki pages and the archive see what interests you
<mdke> hi burgs
<Burgundavia> salut
<Burgundavia> anyone else got got by NMs cute little bug?
<mdke> sup?
<squinn> mdke: In general, I'd be looking at a GNOME Project. Right now, '
<squinn> I'm over-abundant on time, so I'm not in a crunch*
<mdke> squinn, great
<squinn> mdke, I also just added Install Guide to DocTeam Projects.
<squinn> Tenatively, I put No Info Page, No Status Page, and No Preview.
<mdke> ok i see it
<mdke> cool thanks
<squinn> Not a problem.
<squinn> mdke, question
<squinn> wait, maybe nevermind
<squinn> mdke, is there a way i can subscribe to all bugs assigned to ubuntu-doc?
<mdke> squinn, to be honest we don't tend to use bugs much
<JonA> mdke: Are you free for me to ask some questions about the GNOME docs?
<mdke> gimme a bit
<mdke> JonA, just need to tidy something up
<mdke> JonA, gonna be around in 15?
<JonA> No rush :-)
<JonA> mdke: Yeah.
<mdke> what time zone is wales in?
<mdke> :p
<JonA> GMT, so it's 12:36 am here :-)
<mdke> here I am!
<mdke> JonA, i'll try and answer your questions, but I am no expert
<squinn> JonA? 
<JonA> mdke: They're not really technical questions :-) I was just wondering what would be the best way to go about tackling the GNOME guide. Are there any sections which are flagged for revision, or is there a general consensus (which I've missed) of how it needs to be updated?
<JonA> squinn: Yo?
<mdke> JonA, the userguide or quickguide?
<mdke> for the userguide, essentially the thing is pretty disorganised, there are lots of sections that haven't been written, and others that need revision
<JonA> The userguide.
<mdke> for the quickguide, since it was shipped for hoary, its a question of updating, and no plan has yet been done (to my knowledge) about that
<mdke> aha
<JonA> Should I just grep around for authorblurb sections and see what I find?
<mdke> JonA, if you feel up to starting to write sections that are not yet done at all, that would be awesome
<mdke> JonA, ideally sections get marked with "done/to revise" etc but the problem is that different authors have different ideas about when that stage is reached ;)
<mdke> the userguide is so young right now that i don't think we need to worry too much
<mdke> it ALL needs revision ;)
<mdke> in general, the earlier sections are better done than the later ones
<JonA> mdke: Right, I guess I'll have a stab at some of the sections which haven't been started.
<mdke> that would be awesome
<mdke> JonA, couple of things to bear in mind are that there is plenty of info to draw on in the wiki/forums, and that the user target of the guide is beginner
<mdke> otherwise, run amok
<mdke> JonA, you can open the xml files in yelp to read through what is already there
<JonA> Okay, well, I'll try to write a couple of sections tomorrow and get a patch up. If I'm doing anything terribly wrong, I'll find out early.
<mdke> yep
<mdke> if you follow the basic procedure you won't go wrong
<JonA> mdke: Yeah, I've checked it all out and I've been playing about, seems simple enough.
<mdke> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamStepByStepRepository is good
<mdke> if you validate and check your work visually as described there, you are good to go
<squinn> mdke, I think I'll work [lead if needed]  on the About Ubuntu page
<mdke> squinn, cool
<mdke> hopefully not a lot will change for breezy so that document will just need updating
<mdke> when the mailing list is sorted we can start organising that stuff
<mdke> hi gepatino 
<gepatino> hi
<gepatino> just looking
<mdke> welcome :D
<gepatino> i'd like to help somehow in the ubuntu project
<mdke> cool!
<gepatino> right now i dont have much time
<gepatino> but i'd like to know what options do i have to help
<mdke> ooh lots of things
<mdke> you can contribute to the documentation writing project in our archive or on the wiki, or help people on the forums, or help people here in irc in #ubuntu
<mdke> or on the mailing list
<gepatino> i've been helping with translations into spanish (my primary language)
<mdke> thats another great way
<gepatino> but it's almost anything already translated :)
<mdke> do you work with the spanish locoteam to get translations done?
<gepatino> no, i've just entered in the rosetta site and translate when i have some free time
<mdke> before breezy there will be lots of documentation to be translated :)
<mdke> ah good idea
<gepatino> mmm sounds good
<mdke> gepatino, some of our existing documentation is in rosetta
<mdke> but hopefully lots more will be for Breezy
<gepatino> should i belong to the spanish translation group to make my stranslations effective?
<gepatino> i've applied to that group, by haven't got any answer yet
<mdke> no no
<mdke> all translations in rosetta are effective
<gepatino> ok, i'll take a look again in rosseta
<gepatino> thanks for your time
<mdke> any time
<gepatino> see you
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> bye!
<mdke> night all
<gtaylor> howdy
<froud> African greetings
<robitaille> Canadian Greetings
<robitaille> a lot of interesting discussions on the channel in the last 24 hours.  I finally went throught the backlogs earlier today
<froud> Ah yes
<froud> very interesting
<froud> how do you feel about them?
<froud> Its ok if you think I am totally out of wack, honest
<froud> morn gtaylor 
<froud> morn JonA 
<froud> Burgundavia: 
<robitaille> personally I think it makes sense to do everytnig in xml, and from that source produce in whatever format is needed for packaging.
<froud> Hmm is lists.u.c is still not working
<froud> robitaille: OK
<robitaille> still down.   It's getting a bit annoying.  They filled up a hard drive many hours ago; I wonder why it hasn't been cleared yet
<froud> I guess it takes time
<robitaille> Maybe they will rush in the transition to the new lists.ubuntu.com that was supposed to be done shortly anyway.
<froud> maybe
<robitaille> system problems often occurs on Friday nights :)
<froud> I see the logs are also stuck
<froud> yeah, typical
<froud> robitaille: are you now setup and ready for work? I cant remember
<robitaille> yes.  I just haven't found the time yet.  But I have been pulling in updated stuff from the repo from time to time to look at them.  So I'm all setup; I just need to get myself in gear to do something :)
<froud> :-) yeah
<froud> sometimes that can take time
<froud> we need you to do a few god patches
<froud> good
<froud> then we can get you a commit account
<robitaille> And I still want to sit down to read that Docbook Guide you sent earlier.
<froud> Which Bob Staytons book?
<robitaille> yes
<froud> Oh most excellent
<froud> I think everybody on the team should read it
<froud> but its a big book, lots to undersatnd
<froud> Bokker tov sivang 
<froud> robitaille: but that should notstop you from writing
<froud> if you know what it is you want to write that is:-)
<robitaille> I know.  The guide is for my personal learning enjoyment.  I had no idea about all these documentation things only a few weeks ago;  and I have been working with computers for years.
<froud> JonA: if you have time I can help you get setup
<robitaille> Once I have a good knowledge base, I want to push a more organized way of doing docs at my workplace.
<froud> yeah, docbook is a blessing and a curse all the same
<froud> robitaille: workplace
<robitaille> I'm back (one of my kid got up).  Yes; I work for a research group of the Canadian government, and ours docs are a bit disorganized; some done in text, some done with latex, some with framemaker
<robitaille> and some in html
<froud> Ah yes I remember now :-)
<_froud> argh split
<robitaille> we're small enough (~25 staff) that it should be easy to steer the few of us who need to write things in a certain direction..thus the docbook reading
<froud> yeah, It can work well for the technical docs
<JonA> froud: Morning. I've pretty much got myself set up, I think. I've checked out the tree, and I've been playing with making some edits and patches.
<mdke> email is now trickling in slowly
<mdke> squinn, around?
<squinn> yep, mdke 
<squinn> or..i wasn't lol
<mdke> squinn, np i replied on the list
<robitaille> mdke,  to answer your question in your email about the minutes to the last doc meeting and where they should be sent, you should just ask mako to give you access to -news.  He did that semi-recently with dholbach for the MOTO reports. 
<mdke> robitaille, i mentioned it to him yesterday, i'm not sure if he is gonna post it himself
<robitaille> maybe this time...but in the future you probably want to do it yourself.  He is so busy, it's probably the best way for the emails to be sent in a timely manner
<mdke> yes
<mdke> I would have thought he would say that
<mdke> we'll see what he thinks
<robitaille> and of course all these reports will one day be available on "The Fridge" :)
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> i need to check that out
<mdke> is there a testing project? or just the spec
<robitaille> it's still mostly a spec.  jdub has a live site going on his own server, but it's still pretty basic, and a work in progress.
<robitaille> it's nice to finally have e-mails back from the lists :)
<mdke> have you got a url for it?
<jdub> if you post to -news, mako or i will moderate it through
<jdub> mdke: it's not public yet
<mdke> jdub, ok cool
<mdke> jdub, is -news the appropriate list?
<jdub> sure
<mdke> ok
<mdke> thanks :)
<squinn> mdke, I'm here.
<mdke> squinn, hi
<squinn> hey
<squinn> mdke, you were looking for me earlier/
<mdke> squinn, yes, I replied on the list :)
<squinn> ah, ok, lemme take a look
<buzzle> hey everyone
<squinn> Hey buzzle 
<buzzle> im having trouble connecting to my lan in ubuntu
<buzzle> suggestions?
<buzzle> using wireless
<squinn> hm
<squinn> i'd suggest #ubuntu
<squinn> but h/o a sec
<buzzle> just found it
<buzzle> thank you
<squinn> oh ok 
<squinn> enjoy buzzle 
<buzzle> thank you :] 
<squinn> yeah, be specific'
<squinn> what card..what drivers..that kinda stuff
<buzzle> i see
<squinn> buzzle, because some one who has no idea of the card can't give help
<buzzle> i guess i was looking for basic set up info to start with
<buzzle> its not so much that my card is being an issue yet, as i cant figure out a basic set up to even see
<squinn> ah ok
<squinn> mdke, i don't see it?
<squinn> i did get two messages from ubuntu-doc thouhg
<squinn> ubuntu-doc-bounces ?!
<froud> Hmmm, where can I post a document on the xml or html debate?
<mdke> froud, mailing list
<mdke> squinn, are you subscribed to the mailing list?
<froud> is it working
<mdke> yes
<mdke> squinn, its definitely there (http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2005-June/002583.html). perhaps you are not subscribed
<mdke> froud, it is definitely working
<froud> yes I just tested, thanks
<gtaylor> aroo
<squinn> I saw it finally, mdke.
<squinn> On web..thanks.
<squinn> Here comes my confirmation email from mailing list.
<squinn> I was subscribed, but not approved yet, I believe.
<squinn> mdke, thanks i'm fixing patch now
<gtaylor> Looks like things have been busy this weekend
<squinn> gtaylor, yeah. yesterday, seemed like lists were off or i just didn't get them
<squinn> so i'm extra busy now
<mdke> lists were down yesterday
<mdke> hey gtaylor 
<squinn> mdke, question
<squinn> is it possible to have all mail previously [for example: all conversations in the month of june]  sent to list sent to my inbox?
<mdke> not as emails, but you can get them in a news reader
<mdke> http://news.gmane.org/gmane.linux.ubuntu.doc/
<squinn> ah okay
<mdke> or can you just view them in a browser from that link
<squinn> right ok
<squinn> like how i read your mail
<squinn> mdke, proofread the patch, sending now
<mdke> cool
<squinn> sent
<Njal> Lo
<squinn> hey Njal 
<Njal> I was on here yesterday seeing how i might be able to try to help with the documentation project
<squinn> Well, I'
<squinn> I'm not in charge, but I think I am [hehe] 
<squinn> What would you want to work with?
<froud> hey Njal 
<squinn> Again, I'm not in charge..I'm just curious.
<Njal> froud told me that i would need setting up with the cvs system you use
<squinn> svn
<squinn> subversion, yes.
<Njal> yup
<squinn> I don't even think I've set mine up.
<Njal> i presume i apt-get it?
<squinn> Unless that's StepByStep thing was setting it up
<squinn> apt-get install subversion does the binaries yes
<froud> Njal: read this https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamStepByStepRepository
<squinn> Oh, I did set it up then. :D
<squinn> hey, froud, can you do me a favor?
<froud> yep
<squinn> proofread the patch i just sent out on list
<froud> Njal: you should install xsltproc
<froud> will do, was it applied
<squinn> no
<squinn> mdke said it was pretty much there, just had to change a few things
<froud> Ok
<squinn> I'm with Njal as well, in the n00b boat.
<froud> Ok will look at it
<squinn> Thanks froud
<froud> squinn: Njal: hav eyou both installed xsltproc
<froud> you also need to ensure docbook is installed
<froud> as well as docbook-xsl
<squinn> yes, all three installed here
<froud> install also poxml from kdesdk
<squinn> ironically, just installed docbook-xsl..and okay
<froud> see also http://wiki.ubuntu.com/ForTheHasty
<squinn> there, froud 
<froud> yes
<froud> just about to read your patch
<squinn> ok
<squinn> welcome back Njal 
<Njal> thanks net just died for some reason
<Njal> ok subvesion is now installed
<Njal> subversion
<Njal> how do i use it? Never had to use a versioning system before
<mdke> the instructions on the wiki page froud posted should help a lot
<Njal> kk
<froud> squinn: patch applied
<froud> thanks
<froud> squinn: did you ask questions about LearnLinux?
<squinn> No.
<squinn> That's another Sean
<squinn> I'm Sean D. Quinn
<squinn> There's some Sean C. something
<froud> sorry we now have three Seans, me included
<squinn> Yep.
<squinn> froud, I don't understand the second message I was supposed to /ignore
<froud> yes I fix the things in the first patch
<froud> and applied &kubuntu-download; and refer to main
<squinn> ah ok works better 
<squinn> thanks 
<froud> np
<froud> squinn: what are you going to work on?
<froud> Njal: how's it going
<Njal> finally back
<Njal> good
<froud> how far did you get
<Njal> I got subversion installed
<froud> ok
<froud> di you get a checkout
<Njal> I was also pointed to the wiki for further instruction
<froud> ok
<froud> you want to go through it
<Njal> yes as im still not quite sure how to use a versioning system
<froud> ok in your home dir do svn checkout https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos ubuntu-doc
<froud> hold
<froud> in your home dir do svn checkout https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/trunk ubuntu-doc
<froud> this will create a directory called ubuntu-doc/
<Njal> it didn't
<froud> it will add a working copy of the files in trunk to this folder
<Njal> oh wait
<froud> give it time
<froud> the first checkout is big
<Njal> it was asking me to accept something like a cookie that's why i didn't see it doing anything
<Njal> it wasn't a cookie
<froud> are you in a shell session
<Njal> yes
<Njal> bash
<froud> ok select to permanently add it
<Njal> I did do, it was a case of not reading something carefully
<froud> ok
<froud> give it a minute and you will see may lines starting with A
<Njal> MMMMMMMMMMMAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY is right
<froud> OK that is the working copy downloading to the ubuntu-doc folder
<Njal> lotsa .pngs though
<froud> yes
<Njal> So lemmie just get my heard around this
<Njal> head
<froud> ok
<froud> what you are copying to your disk is a copy of the code we all collaborate on
<Njal> I am downloading everything that has ever been done on the documentation project, and like all other versioning systems only one person can work on one file at any one time?
<froud> not quite
<Njal> ok
<froud> you are copying the HEAD version
<Njal> Whats that then?
<froud> that is the current revision
<Njal> ok
<froud> each of us has a copy
<froud> we hack our local copies
<froud> then we upload to the repository
<froud> if you have a commit account then you do this directly using the svn commit command
<froud> if you dont then you create a patch
<Njal> Ok am lost now
<froud> and send it to our mailing list
<froud> Ok where did I lose your
<froud> you
<Njal> the commit account bit
<froud> OK you dont have one at present
<Njal> no
<froud> but if you are serious and give us a few patches we will arrange an account for you
<froud> until then you will be expected to create patches
<froud> I will lead you through this procedure
<froud> when the checkout is complete
<froud> I will also show you how to update your working copy or sync it with the repos
<Njal> Ok so if i submit enough work to make it worthwhile giving me an account i get one, until then i just submit, the hacked local copies via email?
<froud> yes
<Njal> ok it's starting to make sense
<froud> how's that checkout doing, is it finished
<Njal> not yet
<Njal> onto the gnome stuff now
<froud> OK
<Njal> How do i edit these local copies?
<froud> I will explain it
<Njal> ... in good time :P
<Njal> Ok best way really
<froud> I take it you are new to this and have also never used docbook
<froud> but dont worry
<froud> its easier than it sounds
<froud> just takes the will from you to learn it
<Njal> yes, this is all very new to me, to be honest i think i am trying to find my place in the community
<froud> what is your background
<Njal> i have just finished a Diploma in IT practitoners (software dev), and am going on to learn networking/networked programing (software dev and deployment accross networks)
<Njal> But
<froud> anyone can contribute to the docs, but knowing their background can help us in pointing you to work
<Njal> I'm not that good at programming yet
<froud> Ok so you have technical knowledge
<froud> hows your knowledge of Linux
<Njal> Historically i think it's reasonably good, but the working of it, getting there, still trying to learn how to recompile a kernel, just for the experience
<froud> I think you will do just fine
<Njal> thanks
<froud> doing docs is a great way to learn
<froud> I think we are all learning in one way or another
<Njal> I can see how it would be
<Njal> The more i learn the more i realise i know nothing
<froud> :-) yeah
<Njal> Checked out revision 1184.
<froud> beautiful
<froud> ok just gimme a sec b 4 we go on
<Njal> sure thing
<froud> Ok have you subscribed to the commit list?
<froud> http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-doc-commits
<froud> Njal: ?
<Njal> not yet am going there now
<froud> Ok let me know when you have confirmed your subscription
<Njal> is this a mailing list... of sorts?
<froud> yes
<froud> each time one of the members with a commit account adds something to the repos it will send out an email message
<froud> you never post to this list, only get stuff from it
<froud> you will see what I mean once you have subscribed
<froud> have you?
<froud> let me know when done, I need to know so I can demo for you
<Njal> i am now subscribed
<froud> you confirmed your subscription?
<Njal> yup
<froud> ok I am now going to make a commit
<froud> I am just commenting out a peice of code that is not critical
<froud> OK I did the commit. Refresh your mail client
<Njal> Modified:
<Njal>    trunk/kde/kquickguide/C/kquickguide.xml
<froud> OK that message shows you what ws changed
<froud> this list is useful because it lets you know when things change in the repos
<froud> when someting changes in the repos you must update your working copy
<froud> so
<froud> are you in your home dir?
<froud> if not do cd ~
<froud> then do cd ubuntu-doc
<froud> now issue the command svn up
<Njal> yup sync'd
<froud> Ok now you know how to get updates from the repos
<Njal> just svn up?
<Njal> when i get an email?
<froud> yep
<froud> yep
<froud> easy
<Njal> ok i think i can manage that
<froud> right next
<Njal> yes?
<froud> areyou using gnome or kde?
<Njal> gnome
<froud> OK I want you to now edit a file
<froud> to do this
<Njal> yes?
<froud> cd kde/kquickguide/C
<froud> ls
<froud> kquickguide.xml
<froud> you see the file I updated
<froud> do gedit kquickguide.xml
<froud> This will open the file in gedit
<froud> at the top of the file you will see this
<Njal> yup i know that
<froud> <!--<subtitle>
<froud> 		<inlinemediaobject>
<froud> 			<imageobject>
<froud> 				<imagedata
<froud> 					fileref="../../images/&language;/kubuntu-final.png"
<froud> 					format="PNG"/>
<froud> 			</imageobject>
<froud> 		</inlinemediaobject>
<froud> 	</subtitle>-->
<Njal> yes i see the bits you mean?
<Njal> mean
<froud> I want you to delete the <!-- at the begining and the --> at the end
<froud> then save
<Njal> done
<Njal> svn commit by chance?
<froud> Ok close gedit
<froud> no
<Njal> ok
<froud> you dont have a commit account yet ;-)
<froud> when you do then yes
<froud> svn diff kquickguide.xml > kquickguide.xml.diff
<froud> then ls
<froud> ls
<froud> kquickguide.xml  kquickguide.xml.diff
<Njal> yup its created a diff(erences?) file?
<froud> exactly send me that to sean@inwords.co.za
<froud> in future however you will send it to the docteam user list
<froud> did you send it
<Njal> Yes
<Njal> Just this second
<froud> OK now when Iget it I will apply it
<froud> and you will svn up again
<Njal> are all the doc's in .xml?
<froud> yes
<froud> docbook
<Njal> Coz i don't know xml
<Njal> :(
<froud> that's also OK
<froud> you will learn
<froud> follow the markup around you
<froud> I will track your patches and make fixes to the sematic
<Njal> That's the thing i don't understand much of the markup languages
<froud> over time you will get to know it
<froud> OK so you can do reading at http;//www.docbook.org
<froud> and we will help you
<froud> really it is not that hard
<froud> ;-)
<froud> you just edited a file and sent it to me
<froud> now if I had applied the patch, you would get an email from the commit list
<Njal> Yes i understand the transfer of files etc, it's xml i don't understand, i will have a look at this site though
<froud> and you just cd to ubuntu-doc/ and do svn up
<froud> dont worry about the xml
<froud> you just worry about writing and do your best with the xml
<froud> we will fix it
<mdke> well...
<mdke> its a good idea to learn as you go
<Njal> Im sorry i miss the writing principle here, let me look at that edited file
<froud> sure, take a look at the markup, it will make sense
<mdke> Njal, but its easy, you'll pick it up by playing with the files, and checking them after you edit with the validate script and visually, as described in the wiki document
<froud> most of the tags are natural
<Njal> Ok so we have content, i presume that it's meant to be viewed in a webbrowser?
<froud> Njal: mdke is right
<froud> no
<Njal> ok
<froud> Njal: XML is presentation neutral
<froud> however, I think you will find that Yelp is a good help for you at this point
<mdke> it can be made into many things, html, pdf, or stay as it is to be viewed by certain clients
<froud> so I would like you to do yelp kquickguide.xml
<Njal> So
<Njal> Xml is umm.. clay
<Njal> that can be moulded into whatever
<mdke> :)
<froud> ;-) one way to see it
<froud> Njal: did you yelp the file?
<Njal> Yeah i really need to grasp what happening before i try anything, so we write an xml file that gets turned into a usefull file
<Njal> no 
<Njal> working on it
<froud> Ok tak eyour time
<froud> you cant break anything
<froud> so dont be afraid of it
<froud> and i you edit a file and think you have really botched it
<Njal> So yelp presents the xml file in a human readable way?
<froud> what can you do
<froud> yes
<froud> if you both a file then just use the revert command 'svn revert file.xml'
<Njal> Right, i think the next few days are going te be hello world xml things
<squinn> ah, i didn't even know that about reverting..thanks froud 
<froud> that will return your working copy file back to the copy in svn
<froud> squinn: np
<squinn> froud, now that i'm back from yard work, here's my question
<froud> Njal: but you will lose any change you made in that file
<squinn> what can one do to find patchable things?
<squinn> i mean, sure, i was already working on the about ubuntu guide
<froud> Hmm, Idont understand?
<Njal> yeah but if it's botched...
<squinn> Njal, it goes back to the one from the web
<froud> Njal: yes exactly
<squinn> froud, how can I find things to patch?*
<froud> squinn: yu mean what can you work on?
<mdke> squinn, everything needs work
<squinn> yeah.
<froud> well we have breezy targets
<squinn> i mean, that kubuntu thing came upon me while i read and was working on the About Ubuntu guide.
<mdke> keep reading and you'll find more
<squinn> froud, true, but those can't be svn commited until breezy's almost ready for release
<jeffsch> user guide user guide user guide user guide :)
<squinn> yeah, i noticed some OLD screenshots of user-guide
<squinn> warty screenshots
<froud> ;-) jeffsch 
<squinn> yuck, i must update
<mdke> jeffsch, +
<jeffsch> howdy folks
<Njal> Ok another analergy time
<froud> squinn: we are working towards breezy
<mdke> squinn, screenshots its probably better to leave until later, so we can get breezy shots
<froud> squinn: 
<froud> one problem
<Njal> Im learning C, and you need the #include <stdio.h> deal 
<squinn> i've got another question, i'll ask in a minute
<Njal> is this <?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?> the xml equal
<froud> squinn: you are most likely working with hoary
<froud> Njal: no
<froud> Njal: see the doc type decl
<Njal> right
<froud> <!DOCTYPE book PUBLIC "-//OASIS//DTD DocBook XML V4.3//EN" 
<froud> 	"http://www.oasis-open.org/docbook/xml/4.3/docbookx.dtd" [
<froud> squinn: you have hoary on your computer
<squinn> froud, that is correct. i'm using hoary.
<froud> squinn: the problem with that is that you can only see what is in hoary
<froud> so, what to do
<froud> well if you have another computer you can install hoary and then just change the sources.list to breezy repos
<froud> and then you us ethat machine to document
<Njal> Ok well i am going to go for tonight, i've got a fair bit to digest here
<froud> but
<froud> Njal: np c ya
<Njal> bye, and thanks
<squinn> froud, only one usable computer atm
<froud> squinn: you can also download the prerelease ISO files
<froud> then you use something like qemu
<squinn> ah, good idea
<squinn> with qemu
<squinn> do i just...
<froud> to emulate linux under linux
<squinn> qemu "livecdorwhateversmartguysatcanonicaldecidetocalltheiso.iso"?
<froud> Hmm cant remember the commands but see the qemu docs
<squinn> okay, thanks
<squinn> man qemu after install?
<froud> if you get stuck I will type up a tutorial
<squinn> okay, thanks
<squinn> with the emulator..
<squinn> i can't save or download anything though, right?
<froud> squinn: the problem with that is that you must wait for prereleases
<froud> but at least you can do your work
<squinn> what if
<squinn> i created some partitions for breezyt
<froud> for the most part I think you will find that your hoary system is good enough to doucment against
<froud> squinn: that is up to you
<squinn> yeah, that user guide for hoary still needs work
<froud> yes
<froud> so you just write abook
<froud> have fun
<froud> use hoary if you must and as we get closer to breezy we will check it and realign it if needed
<squinn> well, breezy's what, not until 5.10
<froud> yes
<squinn> it's 5.06 still right now right?
<squinn> using ubuntu's system of numbers
<froud> that is why I say that you can use hoary
<squinn> right
<froud> many things will be the same
<mdke> but later to release it will be a good idea to use the breezy development version
<mdke> so you can see any changes
<froud> yes
<froud> mdke: yes
<squinn> at about 5.08, i think i'll upgrade
<squinn> and right now, all cvs can take is hoary right
<squinn> er, svn*
<mdke> ?
<mdke> what do you mean by "can take"?
<squinn> um
<squinn> all that can be handled by svn is hoary documents
<squinn> meaning a document written for breezy could not be in svn right now, correct?
<jeffsch> not correct. anything we work on now is for breezy release
<squinn> okay
<squinn> i think i'm starting to understand
<squinn> but i could still write up say..the user guide..based on hoary..and will update for warty
<squinn> going back in time
<squinn> breezy*
<jeffsch> yes. when we know better what breezy looks like, then we can make any updates/changes
<jeffsch> it's better to have something to fix, rather than nothing at all
<squinn> right.
<squinn> okay, well i'm looking at the quickguide now, i see some errors already
<squinn> this is quickguide that comes with hoary
<squinn> not in svn
<mdke> you have to work in svn
<mdke> things may have already been changed
<squinn> i know, i'm doublechecking
<mdke> squinn, best thing is to ignore the old version
<squinn> i am lol
<squinn> svn much better version
<squinn> yet something i don't like
<squinn> [possible flood warning] 
<squinn> The top panel contains the
<squinn> Applications Menu
<squinn> ,
<squinn> System Menu
<squinn> , and
<squinn> Places Menu
<squinn> and those three titles are huge and brown
<mdke> squinn, you are free to edit
<squinn> and it just looks very..off and unprofessional
<jeffsch> that's yelp's fault
<mdke> squinn, best thing is to work on it
<squinn> ah, ok, jeffsch 
<squinn> and alright mdke 
<squinn> if there's a workaround, jeffsch..i'd like to at least try to find one
<mdke> squinn, that is the least of our worries!! there is much content to sort out
<jeffsch> the workaround is to not use xrefs with the endterm attribute
<squinn> for example: user guide
<squinn> ok
<froud> hello jeffsch long time no speak
<jeffsch> froud: howdy dude
<froud> what you been doing
<jeffsch> nuthin. honest. i didn't do it. or at least, it's not my fault.
<froud> :-)
<jeffsch> :)
<froud> I was looking at style guide. good stuff dude
<jeffsch> still a lotta blanks need filling though
<froud> yep, but I am sure it will be no problem for ppl here
<froud> just needs some time
<jeffsch> getting them to follow it once it's done...
<froud> Hmm, ....
<jeffsch> maybe the doc leads, or primary contacts can be responsible for implementation
<froud> doc leads?
<squinn> leaders on certain doc projects
<jeffsch> from the meeting https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeamMeetingSummary5
<froud> I dont think there are any yet. 
<squinn> I intend to lead on About Ubuntu in GNOME
<froud> mdke: " The install guide is not in the list of projects, this oversight should be corrected ASAP."
<froud> mdke: the install guide is on th elist
<mdke> froud, yes, because it was corrected ASAP
<mdke> doh!
<froud> Oh OK
<froud> mdke: are there doc leads?
<mdke> not yet
<mdke> some have expressed interest
<mdke> it needs to be decided via the ML
<froud> yes saw that
<mdke> listen I will be back later, am in a -it meeting right now
<froud> ML?
<froud> ok
<jeffsch> ML = mailing list
<froud> ah
<froud> k
<froud> Ok I am off for the night, c ya around
<jeffsch> later
<jeffsch> well i have to get some air... 
<squinn> heh, i fixed the little style errors
<squinn> took away the color, they are hyperlinks now..look a lot more professional
<mdke> squinn, have you read the styleguide?
<mdke> its important to have consistency throughout our documentation
<squinn> yes, mdke i have
<mdke> cool
<squinn> I'm going to submit what I just worked on as a patch.
<squinn> how was your italian meeting?
<mdke> still going
<squinn> ah
<squinn> I'm going to try and become a member.
<squinn> Probably not now..in a little bit.
<squinn> I think about a month.
<squinn> So, mdke do you live in Italy or just speak the language?
<mdke> just the language
<squinn> Ah.
<squinn> That's awesome.
<squinn> I know a little here and there.
<squinn> I actually, just gotta send out this patch and head downstairs and help the mom make meatballs.
<mdke> enjoy :)
#ubuntu-doc 2006-06-19
<jdong|coreduo> UWN #3 has a slight inaccuracy, I think
<jdong|coreduo> "Security vulnerabilities found in the following packages have been fixed in all affected Ubuntu releases"
<jdong|coreduo> it's not a true statement
<jdong|coreduo> thunderbird (like firefox) has not been fixed for Hoary/Breezy
<jdong|coreduo> due to the 1.0.x series losing upstream support
<jdong|coreduo> I believe ubuntu-devel has had some discussion on that issue, and it's worth mentioning in the newsletter in a bit more detail
<jdong|coreduo> mgalvin, can you revise UWN #3 a bit, regarding security updates?
<jdong|coreduo> namely, that thunderbird and firefox vulns still exist for Breezy and Hoary?
<jdong|coreduo> (1.0.8 no support)
<mgalvin> jdong|coreduo: in a few min i can (or you can if you want/have time)
<jdong|coreduo> mgalvin, I'll wait patiently, as long as you will eventually do it :)
<jdong|coreduo> you can word it better than me
<mgalvin> jdong|coreduo: hehe, ok, i will do it in a few min
<jdong|coreduo> thanks very much
<mgalvin> jdong|coreduo: np, so its that upstream does not support them anymore correct?
<jdong|coreduo> mgalvin, correct; there is a discussion on ubuntu-devel (the list) about viable options
<jdong|coreduo> so it may be nice to link to that discussion
<mgalvin> ok, i will check... been a long week *sigh* so i haven't gotten to everything yet
<mgalvin> indeed, i will
<jdong|coreduo> mgalvin, https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2006-June/018506.html
<mgalvin> thanks
<jdong|coreduo> that's the discussion on firefox
<jdong|coreduo> it basically applies to thunderbird, too :)
<crimsun> jdong|coreduo: do you mind making one of reinhard, sebastian, or myself an admin of ubuntu-backports on LP?
<jdong|coreduo> crimsun, not at all
<crimsun> jdong|coreduo: great, thanks much
<jdong|coreduo> crimsun, are only owners allowed to do that?
<crimsun> hmm, I think
<jdong|coreduo> I'm not seeing the ability to do it from here
<jdong|coreduo> mez is the owner
<crimsun> ok
<jdong|coreduo> so if you can get ahold of him... :)
<Burgundavia> hey all
<mgalvin> jdong|coreduo: around?
<mgalvin> Burgundavia: hey (an hour later ;))
<Burgundavia> hey mgalvin
<nixternal> hey Burgundavia...how was the trip?
<Burgundavia> nixternal: it was good
<nixternal> good deal
<nixternal> now your heading to the big easy
<nixternal> that should smell pretty bad ;)
<Burgundavia> yep
<nixternal> i think my dad just headed down there as a matter of fact for some work
<Burgundavia> just a sec, dbus died on me
<nixternal> lol
<nixternal> nice
<Burgundavia> ie: I need to restart (bloody dbus)
<Burgundavia> ok, back
<Burgundavia> LaserJock_: we be done, eh?
<LaserJock_> I guess
<LaserJock_> I don't have any emails
<Burgundavia> I believe we are waiting for the press release, on Thursday
<Burgundavia> now come the bug reports
<LaserJock_> hehe
<Madpilot> the book is finally done?
<Burgundavia> Madpilot: no, something else. See my blog post
<LaserJock_> well at least Userful is in the maintainer field ;-)
<Burgundavia> yep
<Burgundavia> it is our junk
<Burgundavia> did you note that our stuff is 6.8.2, not 6.9/7.0?
<LaserJock_> I didn't pay much attention, figures though
<LaserJock_> I got Jason in -motu though ;-)
<LaserJock_> we did a little pbuilder Q&A
<Burgundavia> very cool
<Burgundavia> I had a good chat with Tim and Daniels father at CLA (who also happens to work for the company)
<Burgundavia> the message of Ubuntu is slowly seeping in
<LaserJock_> good
<Madpilot> Burgundavia, so is this the thingie that Userful uses to multiply X to many stations?
<Burgundavia> Madpilot: indeed it is
<Burgundavia> in multiverse! terribly shiny and all that
<Madpilot> nice... the dapper-changes email was a bit... cryptic, and technical
<LaserJock_> of course ;-)
<Burgundavia> press release on Thursday
<Burgundavia> there is also growing talk about open sourcing our stuff
<Madpilot> ah, there will be something human-readable :) For a press-release value of 'readable', anyway
<Burgundavia> just need to convince Tim
<Burgundavia> indeed
<LaserJock_> I've already go some questions from \sh and ogra about it
<Madpilot> isn't your multiseat widget most of your 'stuff' in this case?
<LaserJock_> hehe, "What the heck is a NEW package doing in updates"
<Burgundavia> yes and no
<LaserJock_> Burgundavia: you should tell him that if it was opensource he would have free packaging :-)
<Burgundavia> heh
<LaserJock_> it's true
<Burgundavia> not really a business case,sadly
<LaserJock_> free slave labor :-)
<Burgundavia> tell \sh and ogra "Welcome to the brave new Dapper universe"
<Burgundavia> I expect to see more stuff like it in our multiverse over time
<Burgundavia> oracle db express? skype?
<LaserJock_> yeah, ogra said mvo is really trying to push stuff like that forward
<Burgundavia> I expect the pressure also coming from malc, sabdfl and jdub
<Burgundavia> night all
<Burgundavia> LaserJock_: chase up your pay this week (I will be away, as stated on p.u.c)
<LaserJock_> ok, thanks
<Madpilot> heh - nice spec name: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DrinkingFromTheFirehose
<LaserJock> yeah
<Madpilot> I really should get into bughunting/triaging a bit more
<LaserJock> yep
<LaserJock> and Henrik just talked about trying to get forum people working on that too
<Madpilot> good - the perennial forum/rest of Ubuntu divide gets a bit narrower ;)
<LaserJock> there is a forum person, ubuntu_deamon I believe, here
<Madpilot> gah... why does LP always return errors on the more interesting bugs? :|
<LaserJock> mdke: hi!
<mdke> LaserJock: hello
<mdke> LaserJock: having fun?
<jsgotangco> wish we had proper outlets here though
<jenda> Is the ubuntu 64 bit version documented somewhere? Can't really find anything in the wiki.
<Ubugtu> Ubuntu bug 64 in pwlib "pwlib: FTBFS: Shared libraries without -fPIC." [Normal,Resolved: fixed]  http://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=64
<jenda> thanks, Ubugtu
<dsas> jenda: I guess it depends on what exactly you want documented, I believe there's documentation on using 32bit chroots for various things, I'm not sure what else you'd need (I don't use the platform myself)
<jenda> I don't use it either, but a guy's asking wether it's a good idea to install it, or wether to use 32 bit
<dsas> I think most things just work, but you run into problems with non-free stuff - w32codecs, flash are two that are usually issues I think.
<jenda> OK
<jenda> thanks.
<dsas> They can work, but you have to install the app in a 32bit chroot, I don't know how hard that is, or how strong the documentation on it is. It won't just work in any case.
<jenda> Yes, just found that in - where else - /RestrictedFormats on the wiki :)
<mdke> we have wiki
<Burgwork> mdke, we migrated?
<mvirkkil> Hmm.. What's going on?
<mdke> Burgwork: yes
<robotgeek> hey mdke 
<mdke> hiya
<Burgwork> mdke, sweetness. You in Paris?
<jjesse> how can i keep my kubuntu wiki theme across on help.ubuntu.com for documeation?
<jjesse> hmmm also need to keep me logged in when i tranfsfer over to help.ubuntu.com from wiki.ubuntu.com
<Burgwork> jjesse, currently neither of those is possible
<jjesse> we should make those possible :)
<Burgwork> the 2nd would require shared cookies
<Burgwork> I believe the LP people are working on it
<jjesse> cool, need to add the kubuntu theme as well:)
<mdke> Burgwork: nope
<Burgwork> mdke, hmm, so only jerome is there. I guess Laser_away is as well
<mdke> he is yeah
<mdke> jjesse: i'll ask to get that kubuntu theme added
<jjesse> mdke: thanks
<jjesse> btw congrats on geting the move done
<Burgwork> indeed
* Burgwork is currently run off his feet with work
<tormod> after the wiki-move to help.ubuntu.com, most of https://help.ubuntu.com/community/DebuggingProcedures is broken. What's the plan?
<Burgwork> tormod, fix the links as needed
<tormod> burgwork, link to the old wiki?
<Burgwork> tormod, yep
<tormod> burgwork, are you sure the missing pages should not be moved to h.u.c ?
<Burgwork> tormod, can you email ubuntu-doc with a list of broken links for discussion?
<tormod> burgwork, sure - done.
<tormod> burgwork, but "Post by non-member to a members-only list" "awaits moderator approval"
<Burgwork> tormod, it will get passed, but might take a bit
#ubuntu-doc 2006-06-20
<nalioth> howdy y'all
<nalioth> who is in charge of the mailing lists ?
<Burgwork> nalioth, which one?
<nalioth> lists.ubuntu.com
<nalioth> who would i email to get one started?
<nixternal> mdke: excellent speach on lugradio mate..good job!!!
<Burgwork> nalioth, jdub I believe
<nalioth> ok, thanks Burgwork 
<Burgwork> no worries
<nalioth> y'all take care (i'm sure i'll be back)
<Seveas> @now houston
<nixternal> how official is the h.u.c move?  it is still a work in progress correct?  concerning the broken links email we all just got...should we work on fixing these links, and if so any spec's to follow?  any extra info would rock ;)
<mgalvin> hmm, lots of broken links on h.u.c
* mgalvin breaks out his soldering gun
<nixternal> lol
<nixternal> mine is already warmed up and ready for us ;)
<nixternal> s/us/use
<mgalvin> :)
<nixternal> how do we go about fixing those broken links..i just found way more then that email listed too...it seems as if those pages haven't been moved over to h.u.c  and are we all moving them, or is their a team in charge of that now?
<mgalvin> yea, i ran into a bunch (like php install) that is not even there
<nixternal> hehe..i ran into everyone i think ;)
<mgalvin> probably best to consult with mdke
<nixternal> that is what i was thinking
<mgalvin> i don't want to muck with it to much since i know he (and heno iirc) drove a lot of the migration
<mgalvin> i guess we can just fix broken ones that have pages that exist
<mgalvin> it seems like there may be a mod_rewrite issue as well since some links seem to have "community/" added to them
<mgalvin> and some do not (for no apparent reason) :-/
<nixternal> hehe
* nixternal waits ;)
<nixternal> soldering iron is staying on though ;)
<mgalvin> hehe :)
<nixternal> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlimpSdg3aA&search=ubuntu
<mpt> waaaaaaah
<mpt> that's great
<nixternal> haha
<mdke> morning
<Madpilot> hi mdke - nice segment on Lugradio
<mdke> yeah?
<mdke> I haven't listened yet... am concerned I will have sounded like an idiot
<Madpilot> not completely ;)
<mdke> looks like the help website is totally broken
<Madpilot> the wiki transition?
<mdke> well, the 6.06 section is completely broken, and the links aren't working properly on the wiki
* mdke goes off to pester Znarl
<robitaille> mdke:  you sounded good 
<Madpilot> mdke, if we tag stuff in @ wiki.u.c as CatDoc does it get transfered automagically to help.u.c/community?
<mdke> no, too late for that now
<mdke> we need to do things manually
<Madpilot> I'm just seeing leftovers showing up in RecentChanges
* mdke nods
<mdke> I'm writing some quick instructions of how to move pages manually
<Madpilot> excellent, thanks
<Madpilot> hi jsgotangco - enjoying Paris?
<jsgotangco> heh we're in the middle of nowhere
<Madpilot> I saw your planet.u.c post - some industrial suburb outside of Paris?
<jsgotangco> yeah hahaha
<jsgotangco> we attempted looking for a neat place around 10pm last night we couldn't find anything open hahaha
<jsgotangco> the guy from the hotel ended up driving all around the airport
<Madpilot> heh
<jsgotangco> we're like 40min away from Paris itself and that's using the metro!
<Madpilot> way, way out of Paris, then :)
<Madpilot> how's the actual conf. going?
<LaserJock> morning doc people
<Madpilot> hi Laser_away 
<LaserJock> hi Madpilot, how's it going?
<Madpilot> good
<Madpilot> I've been looking over the new wiki - looks good, although there's a few leftovers & strays on the old wiki still
<LaserJock> so it moved?
<Madpilot> the CatDoc stuff did
<Madpilot> now at help.u.c/community
<LaserJock> ah cool
<LaserJock> I talked to elmo yesterday
<LaserJock> about weither we could do a doc sprint using the new Team Speak server
<LaserJock> he said to have at it, no problem
<LaserJock> so I think we should schedule something soon
<Madpilot> nice - I'll have to dig my little mic out and set Teamspeak up here 
<ghee22> hello?
<ghee22> if anyone is free, i'm looking for information on how to write pages that yelp can display.  http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gdp/templates.html is what I'd like to confirm
<mdke> hi ghee22 
<mdke> ghee22: yelp can display any valid docbook or html file
<mdke> we have a template for docbook articles and books here: https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/trunk/incoming/
<jsgotangco> mdke: good morning
<mdke> morning jsgotangco 
<ghee22> hi mdke
<ghee22> mdke, yes, this is exactly what i needed. thank you.  mdke, are you a programmer?
<mdke> ghee22: no
<froud> mdke: mdke nice interview from you on lugradio
<froud> http://www.lugradio.org/episodes/53
<jsgotangco> wow 
* jsgotangco is hungry for lunch
<bhuvan> froud: yeah it's nice interview
<bhuvan> mdke: seems you stress https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MatthewEast/HelpfulHelpVersionMinusOne there. excellent!
<Burgwork> hey jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> Burgwork: hi
<jsgotangco> what's up?
* jsgotangco is a bit tired though
<Burgwork> not much
<Burgwork> crazy with work, as I just back from one trip and off again tomorrow for another
<jsgotangco> ahhh
<jsgotangco> i had a long day today
<jsgotangco> im still not getting used to seeing the sun at 10pm though
<Burgwork> ah, true
<Burgwork> how far from the equator do you live?
<jsgotangco> i live in the equator dude
<jsgotangco> or like just above the equator
<Burgwork> that is what I thought
<jsgotangco> so even though im adjusted to the timezone, my body isn't
<Burgwork> yep
<jsgotangco> so what's keeping you busy aside from work?
<Burgwork> just work, because of the all travel
<jsgotangco> man i should sleep
#ubuntu-doc 2006-06-21
<Madpilot> hi jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> hi!
<Plug> Morning all
<Madpilot> how's Paris going?
<robotgeek> hey Madpilot jsgotangco Plug 
<jsgotangco> Madpilot: tiring
<Madpilot> hi robotgeek 
<jsgotangco> its ony 8:20am
<Madpilot> jsgotangco, gah! Far too early :)
<Plug> Is there an installation guide for dapper (the d-i doc) - can only find up to breezy?
<jsgotangco> Madpilot: can't help it! its like 2:20pm in my place now!
<robotgeek> Plug: i htink only on the installer itself, nothing online. i am not sure if the ones on doc.ubuntu.com are for breezy/dapper
<Plug> right
<jsgotangco> ah clear skies in paris today
<Plug> Seveas: are you around?  I have some Falcon questions.
<Seveas> Plug, sure, but better do that in PM
<Plug> np
<Madpilot> hmm, why is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RecentChanges redirecting to https://help.ubuntu.com/community/CategoryCleanup?
<Madpilot> shouldn't wiki.u.c be maintaining it's own CatCleanup?
<mdke> Madpilot: redirecting?
<Madpilot> it was a while ago
<mdke> seems ok here
<Madpilot> sorry, not RecentChanges, but https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CategoryCleanup
<mdke> ah, right
<mdke> ghee22: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MultimediaGuideContent <-- this is purely documentation, why isn't that being worked on with the documentation team?
<mdke> Madpilot: categorycleanup is only for documentation, I think we can delete it on the main wiki
<Madpilot> mdke, fair enough
* mdke goes to do some work
<ghee22> mdke:  i'm not actually working on the documentation anymore (hi btw)
<mdke> ghee22: hi. So who's project is that?
<mdke> (whose)
<ghee22> mdke: simon brilliantly gave me the idea to work on a flashy way to present **specific** documentation when a user logs in, for the first time.  The project is about preemptivily giving the user certian docuementation only, not all.  Also, I am making it so the sysadmin can edit it easily so they can add custom instructions;  for example, if it's a school computer, the sysadmin for the school can add a page to the program on how to s
<mdke> ghee22: where does that documentation come from?
<ghee22> mdke: so, i'm putting in dummy documentation right now to fill the program with stuff.  the program is about presenting it in a very easy way.  the documentation will hopefully come from the doc-team!  :o)  If they are supportive that is.  Otherwise, I'll be taking what they wrote and, perhaps, make templates.
<mdke> separate documentation from the help system?
<jsgotangco> good morning mdke
<ghee22> mdke:  well, as you can see in the mock screenshot, i took the office page word for word form Ubuntu - Help - Desktop Guide - Office.  So, no, it's not seperate.  But, also shown in the screenshot, I will add in the (Multimedia Guide)/(Welcome Center)/(whatever we're calling it) program a gif to show the user how to get to the office programs (show mouse clicking Applications, Office, and highlight the OO.o programs).
<ghee22> mdke:  what do you think?
<mdke> ghee22: sounds good. However I think that developing a separate application that does this will lead users to lose sight of the system help center and thus potentially they will only see a small snapshot of the documentation available. Id much rather see your project working directly on the system help center...
<ghee22> mdke:  I have thought about this.  I haven't come to a perfect solution, yet;  what do you think of putting in big bold letters, that this a way to get help is, System - Help, and noting that this program is just a guide, not a help system.  I don't really think the user would get confused, if i'm very clear in front page the purpose of this program is:  to INTRODUCE the user to  Ubuntu's most used features (based on what the sysadmi
<ghee22> mdke:  I will put in words, "This is not a help system.  The purpose of this program is to introduce you to the features used most for new Ubuntu users.  To get help, please refer to Ubuntu's help system found in System, help."  I can change the words, to something you guys like.  Also, I have a category (see screenshot) that refers to support which show the user how to get help.
<ghee22> mdke:  what do you think?
<ghee22> mdke:  i hope the silence implies we're finally getting along (agreeing).
<mdke> ghee22: sorry, I'm at work, will read what you said above
<mdke> ghee22: right. I'm afraid I don't see a distinction between a guide and a help system. The former is a subset of the latter. However, I think if your program is well integrated with the help system, it might work
<LaserJock> mdke!
<jsgotangco> grab him!
<mdke> yo
<LaserJock> mdke: I keep trying to ping you
<LaserJock> but my chat goes in and out
<mdke> yeah
<LaserJock> mdke: I think Kamion, Keybuk, etc wanted to ask me about the doc string freeze
<LaserJock> mdke: also I talked to elmo about using the team speak server for doc team sprints and he said that was fine
<LaserJock> mdke: is there anything you wanted me to say about doc string freeze?
<mdke> don't think so
<LaserJock> have you seen their draft of the Release Schedule?
<jsgotangco> yeah i think it would be sane to use TS for a small sprint
<LaserJock> and gobby ;-)
<LaserJock> hmm, I don't see a UI freeze on the edgy schedule
<mdke> no, i haven't looked at it
<LaserJock> but the string freeze is a week after Feature Freeze
<mdke> 1.as for team speak, does it work?
<LaserJock> it works, if people use it and right now if your not on ppc
<LaserJock> but it is pretty simple
<LaserJock> right now they have doc string freeze 6 weeks before release
<LaserJock> The first BOF for the release schedule that I went to was only about development
<LaserJock> so they didn't talk about docs at all, the second one had a lot of artwork stuff
<sfllaw> ghee22: The convention should be to _introduce_ a feature.  Maybe with a screenshot?  And then hyperlink to the real documentation.
<sfllaw> And maybe even link to something that will start up that feature for you?
<sfllaw> That way, the introductory welcome message leads people into discovering features and documentaoin.
<sfllaw> Which is what new users find helpful for transferring skills from one environment to the next.
<sfllaw> OK.  Nap time.
<sfllaw> Zzzz.
<jsgotangco> zzzz too
<jsgotangco> sfllaw: i heard there's a fete tonight in the city
<apokryphos> the idea to move some random pages off the wiki (even though they are the wiki) into h.u.c/community is a bit curious IMO
<LaserJock> random?
<LaserJock> only pages marked CategoryDocumentation were moved
<apokryphos> or ones under there, yes.
<LaserJock> so it isn't random then
<apokryphos> I didn't literally mean random, I meant different pages on the wiki
<apokryphos> the question is why they moved there, not which category has
<LaserJock> well, because documentation pages were supposed to move
<LaserJock> or are you asking why we are doing the move in the first place?
<apokryphos> exactly
<LaserJock> see wiki.ubuntu.com/BetterWikiDocs
<ghee22> sfllaw:  that's an excellent idea.  i will provide you with more details..  keep the ideas rollin
<LaserJock> sfllaw: what are you doing in here? ;-)
<LaserJock> we have no bugs
<LaserJock> :-)
<jrib> Hi, is there a standard for dealing with ubuntu versions on the wiki, or should I just seperate the page into "for breezy" and "for dapper" sections?  I am updating the logitech mx1000 guide for dapper, if that matters.
<LaserJock> jrib: I'd check the ubuntu-doc mailing list archives on lists.ubuntu.com
<jrib> LaserJock: thanks
<LaserJock> jrib: we recently had a discussion about that, but I'm not sure what the specifc suggestion was
<apokryphos> anyhow, I'm going to add the FAQ to the main wiki page, unless there are objections...
<LaserJock> you can always ask the ML if you are in doubt
<Kamping_Kaiser> sorry if this has been discussed while i wasnt looking - but the /DocumentationTeam/Projects page has lots of stuff marked 'for dapper', will those now be 'for edgy'?
<Kamping_Kaiser> and i'd like to help somehow (at last) :/
<mdke> apokryphos: _all_ documentation was moved
<mdke> nothing random about that
<apokryphos> many pages I see still haven't transffered, but I suppose that's down to it still being in the transition stage?
<mdke> apokryphos: no, that's because the pages didn't have the CategoryDocumentation tag
<mdke> (erroneously)
<mdke> if they are documentation, they need to be moved manually
<apokryphos> ok, I'll mark such pages that I see
<apokryphos> though, some pages will need a total restructure (i.e. Kubuntu), which provide both user and developer information
<mdke> user information |= documentation
<mdke> but yes, there is sometimes a difficult line to be drawn
<apokryphos> what do you mean? Could you give a vague distinction, perhaps?
<mdke> documentation is information which describes how to use the computer to do a task
<apokryphos> hm, is [wiki:somedoc sometitle]  deprecated now, I see?
<mdke> Pages which deal with the ubuntu community and provide information about teams, derivatives, projects, specifications and so on are not documentation
<mdke> eh?
<apokryphos> [wiki:SomeDoc Some Doc Title]  seems to be deprecated
<dsas> apokryphos: Linking to another page inside the wiki is [:PageName: Display Text] 
<apokryphos> Noticed it's that now, yes
* apokryphos goes to edit some pages
<mdke> "wiki:" has never been a valid way to link, to my knowledge
<apokryphos> I saw it on several pages, so that's what I used
<mdke> but if it was, nothing has changed
<apokryphos> (and it used to work perfectly in the past)
<jrib> I was trying to figure out that same problem right now
<apokryphos> well, it's definitely changed in, say, the last 10 days?
<mdke> no
<apokryphos> well, it has :)
<mdke> nothing at all has changed, for the last year at least
<apokryphos> I'm sorry, but it certainly used to work (I used it a dozen times in a wiki page, and, well, now it isn't
<apokryphos> that it matters, I'll jsut change the syntax
<mdke> (1)you can say it has all you want, but it hasnt.
<apokryphos> same for you, then :)
<mdke> no, I know for a fact that the software has not been altered in any way
<jrib> is there a way to search the mailing list archives?
<mdke> you can probably search here: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.linux.ubuntu.doc
<jrib> mdke: thanks
<LaserJock> mdke: ping
<mdke> LaserJock_: yeah
<Laser_away> mdke: sorry network is going off and on
<Laser_away> mdke: Edgy will not have a UI freeze
<Laser_away> Keybuk said that basically Feature Freeze will be the time when all features including artwork should be complete
<Laser_away> also, a representitive from the art team will be going to the Thursday distro meetings
<Laser_away> Keybuk asked that we also send a representitive
<Laser_away> this way all the teams can keep tabs on each other's activities, etc.
<Laser_away> mdke: should I email the list about these items?
<mdke> Laser_away: guess so?
<Laser_away> k
<Laser_away> it might take me a little time to do it as I'm trying to draft a spec, etc. but I'll try to do it today
<mdke> ok
<mdke> Im not sure I can see the feasibility of sending a docteam representative to the distro meetings, or whether it will actually have any benefit, but I suppose it is up to them
<Laser_away> mdke: well, I suppose you can discuss it with Keybuk or TB
<Laser_away> mdke: I guess the idea is that art, doc, and dev teams should all be aware of what everybody is up to
<mdke> yes.
<jsgotangco> mmm?
<Laser_away> jsgotangco: keybuk told me today that they want a doc team representitive at the distro meetings
<jsgotangco> boy that small strawberry thingie outside was delicious
<nixternal> lol
<mdke> i just have my doubts about whether well be able to get someone there. It seems to me that they have enough difficulties with trying to ensure that employees get there at all hours of the day/night
<jsgotangco> well its not like only one should be there mdke
<Laser_away> well, they rotate six hours each time and Keybuck said that the person can just send a report f they can't make it
<jsgotangco> i mean the meetings rotate and sometimes like me i just idle there so
<mdke> jsgotangco: I still have my doubts
<jsgotangco> shouldn't be that hard really
<mdke> we'll see
<Laser_away> mdke: well, it really isn't as big a deal for us as for art
<jsgotangco> you'll just need someone doing a report if no one comes
<mdke> Laser_away: yeah, I see that
<Laser_away> they point was to help the team not have any "suprises"
<jsgotangco> LaserJock: are you upstairs?
<LaserJock> jsgotangco: yes, highvoltage and I are drafting ;-)
<jsgotangco> ahhh
<jsgotangco> have you seen rodrigo?
<LaserJock> not for a while
<jsgotangco> he seemed to have escaped again heh
<LaserJock> maybe he went to Paris
<jsgotangco> bastard!
<LaserJock> well, maybe he wanted to find some more 4 euro water ;-)
<jsgotangco> heh
<jsgotangco> i hoarded a bottle yesterday to my room
<LaserJock> oh, actually I remeber now that he was going to go the village and get some wine
<jsgotangco> im not really keen on bringing wine home considering there's a wine store near my house that houses like a hundred french wines :/
<LaserJock> well, I don't think he was planning on bringing it home ;-)
<jsgotangco> he's going to bribe us!
<LaserJock> yep
<klepas> mdke: lovely interview :)
<mdke> klepas: thanks. I was kicking myself afterwards that I didnt talk more about some things
<mdke> still, nice that they are interested in docs
<jsgotangco> your majesty!
<LaserJock> what interview?
<klepas> lugradio's latest ep
<LaserJock> listening now
<klepas> :)
<jsgotangco> superstar mdke
<LaserJock> mdke's a Rock Star!!
<jsgotangco> we can only dream...
<mdke> all lawyers are secretly rock stars
<jsgotangco> i can only dream on being in your level
<jsgotangco> LaserJock: it also helps that he's english so its already biased for startes
* jsgotangco snickers
<LaserJock> jsgotangco: hehe, true. He did fit in nicely ;-)
<nixternal> with the move and all taking place with h.u.c and w.u.c...we can still go about CatCleanup like always?
<LaserJock> I would think so
<nixternal> some of the pages listed in CatCleanup don't have CatCleanup on the bottom of the pages either...It is like they kept the setting, just don' t display it
<LaserJock> hmm, you sure it isn't in there somewhere?
<mvirkkil> nixternal: You can easily grep the page by wgetting the raw code. 
<mvirkkil> nixternal: Something like:
<mvirkkil> wget -U "" -q -O - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Home?action=raw|grep Category
<mvirkkil> Where you can replace the "Home" with any PageName 
* mvirkkil has been playing around with wgetting stuff from the wiki because his laptop is too slow for browsing :/
<nixternal> ahh i see it is in there...just not in the bottom portion of the page
<claude> mgalvin: ping
<mgalvin> claude: pong?
<claude> about the weekly newsletter
<mgalvin> whats up
<claude> we just had an irc meeting for the french team
<claude> and we'll have shortly the letter translated in french
<claude> we just set up the process
<claude> i'll told you when it is online
<claude> i just wanted you to be aware of this
<mgalvin> claude: excellent, thanks!
<mgalvin> claude: i try to have them done every saturday night (US time) just so you know when to expect new issues to be ready for translation
<claude> ok, thanks
<claude> we'll try to have it translated in 2 or 3 days, if possible
#ubuntu-doc 2006-06-22
<theCore> LaserJock: hi
<mdke> morning
<jsgotangco> good morning
<Madpilot> hi
<LaserJock> hi mdke, jsgotangco, Madpilot 
<Madpilot> hi LaserJock 
<jsgotangco> hey! you surved last night?
<jsgotangco> s/surved/survived
<LaserJock> uggh
<LaserJock> maybe
<Madpilot> pub crawling in Paris?
<jsgotangco> no
<jsgotangco> 52 card mao
<jsgotangco> or was it 53?
* jsgotangco doesn't remember he got creamed with the new rules being introduced
<LaserJock> heh
<LaserJock> you sure did
<LaserJock> I just never could tell when it was my turn
<jsgotangco> i had like a quarter of the deck hehe
<Madpilot> Mao is the card game with no rules, correct?
<jsgotangco> there are rules but you just don't know what rule is in effect during gameplay
<Madpilot> ah yes. Corey tried to explain it to me when he got back from Mataro...
<jsgotangco> so even if you know the basic rules you can still get creamed
<LaserJock> and I didn't even get the basic ones
<LaserJock> mdke: ping?
<mdke> LaserJock: hi
<LaserJock> mdke: hi, I was just trying to look at my email while I have a lull in the action
<LaserJock> I noticed the email about the Debugging wiki page
<mdke> yep
<LaserJock> I wonder if the BugSquad should take care of that stuff
<mdke> well, I kinda feel bad that we were responsible for moving the pages when we shouldn't have
<mdke> i might take a look at it later
<LaserJock> well, we moved only stuff marked as CatDoc right?
<mdke> yes
<LaserJock> so at least it was an honest mistake ;-)
<LaserJock> do you want me to talk to sfllaw about any of it? I have a BOF next with him
<LaserJock> I'm interested in how much we want to put in offical documentation
<LaserJock> or leave to BugSquaders to use the wiki.u.c wiki
<LaserJock> or ...
<mdke> yes, that would be a good thing to talk about
<rob> does the flash plugin instructions on RestrictedFormats work for anyone else?
<rob> doesn't work for me
<mdke> rob: yes
<rob> thats odd then, it just says install "flashplugin-nonfree"
<rob> but I have that installed, but firefox and konqueror won't pick it up
<rob> the sudo command listed doesn't work either (no such files), though I have the default Ubuntu Firefox installed in any case
<mdke> try doing "sudo update-flashplugin"
<mdke> you need an internet connection
* rob waits
<jsgotangco> hey
<rob> hi jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> bonjour rob
<rob> I'm so going to have to make it to one of those one day
<jsgotangco> sprints?
<rob> yeah, anything really, just to meet people
<jsgotangco> yeah its fun
<jsgotangco> im sitting beside klaus knopper and his wife at the moment jsut talking stuff
* rob prays to the UbuntuGod for another UDU
<rob> mdke, does sudo update-flashplugin take a while? it just appears to be sitting there doing not much
<mdke> rob: it downloads the plugin from the internet, (which is what installing that package does too, unless you say "no" on installing) so it depends on your connection
<rob> does it display progress at all?
<jsgotangco> rob: yeah it can get really interesting
<mdke> no
<rob> hmm, I'll leave it go then, might pay adding that to the wiki I guess
<rob> ok added
<can3p> Hello. I want to ask about latest UWN issue(#3). The feature of the week was devhelp. It was said that there is a lot of additional information in devhelp format. I've searched a lot, but there is no documentation in devhelp format in dapper repos. Where can I get additional packages with documenatation in devhelp format. I need docs for GTK+
<dsas> can3p: Some of the *-doc packages will install their selves to devhelp such at python-gtk2-doc
<can3p> what about docs for C?
<can3p> a mean gtk+ and C
<can3p> I mean gtk+ and C
<dsas> can3p: you probably want to try libgtk2.0-doc in that case
<LaserJock> can3p: did you get a reply?
<LaserJock> to your email?
<LaserJock> I thought I sent one
<can3p> dsas: thanks a lot, it works. I didn't install it, it's said in description, that it's only installed in /usr/share/doc/libgtk2.0-doc/. Again, thanks.
<tuxmaniac> LaserJock> ping and you back from paris?
<LaserJock> tuxmaniac: no, I'll be back Saturday
<Laser_away> mdke: ping?
<mdke> LaserJock: hmm?
<LaserJock> mdke: oh nice, you're here
<LaserJock> oh, maybe not
<LaserJock> stupid summit ;-)
<LaserJock> mdke: we had a guy who wants to translate the Edubuntu School Advocacy doc into French
<LaserJock> mdke: I created a .pot with xml2po -e but I'm not sure if that is the way you've been doing it
<mdke> LaserJock: yes, that's right.
<LaserJock> ok, so how do you turn it back
<mdke> LaserJock: same again: xml2po -e
<LaserJock> ok
<LaserJock> and how is upload handled on Rosetta, who can do that?
<mdke> whoever has permission for the product
<LaserJock> ok
<LaserJock> and are we thinking of ways to translate the wiki at all?
<mdke> 1.Laserjock: we can translate wiki articles that we export to docbook, if we do that. But there is no reasonable way of translating wiki pages on-the-fly using that toolchain.
<mdke> damn numbers
<LaserJock> hmm
<LaserJock> this guy I was talking with mentioned po4a
<LaserJock> http://po4a.alioth.debian.org/
<LaserJock> mdke: I'm not sure if it would help us but I thought I should mention it
<mdke> I'm not mad keen on changing the current toolchain, but we can look at it I guess
<LaserJock> it would be for the wiki
<mdke> 1.right, but I think the wiki->docbook tools are going in the right direction for that
<mdke> I dont think its so hard to translate a wiki page manually, anyway
<LaserJock> k, just thought I'd mention it
<LaserJock> so it looks to me like any doc team LP member can upload .pots . Is that right?
<mdke> to the ubuntu-doc product, yes
<LaserJock> k
<LaserJock> anyway, it doesn't matter right now
<LaserJock> everybody just seems very interested in translation
<mdke> cool
<jenda> mdke: ping?
<mgalvin> mdke: great interview on lug, now i have a reason to drop your name in UWN :)
<jsgotangco> hmmmm
<mgalvin> mmmmmh
<mdke> jenda: if you're still around?
<jenda> yep
<jenda> I was wondering why ubuntu.com
<jenda> has Ubuntu linux in the title when it has been repeatedly stressed that the name is "Ubuntu"
<jenda> not "Ubuntu Linux"
<jsgotangco> -)
<jsgotangco> meh
<mdke> I think the reason is that it helps get hits from search engines
<mdke> people often search for "ubuntu linux"
* mdke goes to bed
<jenda> OK
<jenda> do they search by title? (the engines)
<mdke> I mean, people put "ubuntu linux" into the search box.
<mdke> search engines index titles yeah
* mdke really goes to bed
<jsgotangco> its not even midnight!
<jenda> true... :)
<jenda> don't forget that mdke is a little further East :)
<jsgotangco> hmm its only 10:28 in london
<jsgotangco> so paris is 1 hour ahead
<jenda> that was a pun, jsgotangco ;)
<jenda> notice the capital E
<jenda> :)
<jsgotangco> ahh
* jsgotangco is not a natural english speaker sorry
* jenda neither :)
<jenda> but I love puns.
<jsgotangco> ahh time flies so fast the summit ends tomorrow
* jenda 's eyes open wide
<jenda> that means the CC meeting could be coming soon :)
<jsgotangco> coming soon?
<jsgotangco> like next week?
#ubuntu-doc 2006-06-23
<nixternal> what is the easiest way to do docbooks style editing and documentation?  using something like bluefish or quanta, or using kate when you get the xml stuff down??  configuration wise is there something perfect, just for docbooks?
<Plug> There are a couple of editors
<Plug> there's one called xxe?
<Plug> I forgot what the one I looked at was
<robotgeek> nixternal: apparently quanta is nice, i just use vim though
<Madpilot> nixternal, I use Bluefish - it does XML nicely
<Madpilot> Screem doesn't seem to, although it claims it does :|
<nixternal> i have been playing with bluefish
<nixternal> sorry..i went for some ice cream ;)
<nixternal> i have been using kate..i would type it up..then fill in the xml tags..but i kept finding myself going back to my xml guide all the time
<robotgeek> nixternal: ah, vim doesnt do that without some funky plugins
<nixternal> well..i have to manually add the xml tags..i haven't figured out the whole docbooks plugins that kate has
<nixternal> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/MoinDocBookProject
<nixternal> if you haven't read, you might be interested
<nixternal> some guy doing that as part of his SoC project
<robotgeek> nixternal: nice, we can filch maybe :)
<nixternal> looks like a really nice project..i can't wait to see what comes of it
<mdke> nixternal: yeah, mvirkkil is doing that project. It is really exciting
<mdke> Madpilot: I will have a go at some pdfs for lulu for the new translations at some stage, do you fancy having a go at the covers?
<Madpilot> sure, I can do them tomorrow night - I'm about to shut down for the night here
<mdke> Madpilot: that's great
<Madpilot> which languages?
<mdke> Madpilot: can't remember right now, whatever is on the wiki page
<jsgotangco> bonjour
<Madpilot> about a dozen, it looks like - including Thai - cool
<Madpilot> is Thai a RTL language or a LTR, anyone know?
<jsgotangco> its RTL
<jsgotangco> err
<jsgotangco> LTR even
<jsgotangco> sorry
<Madpilot> OK, that's easy
<jsgotangco> the only RTL languages you'll encounter in asia are chinese and japanese
<jsgotangco> even korean is LTR
<jsgotangco> not sure about west asian languages though
<Madpilot> no idea
<Madpilot> the only RTL languages I usually recall offhand are Arabic & Hebrew - and we don't yet have any translations into those two
<jsgotangco> japanese is definitely RTL
<jsgotangco> mdke: ping?
<LaserJock> jsgotangco: are you going to handle the ESA .pot thing for that guy?
<jsgotangco> sure no rush
<jsgotangco> ill probably do a new package for edubuntu-docs to just shove everything on it
<jsgotangco> besides its supposed to be a different package
<mdke> jsgotangco: hello
<jsgotangco> mdke: hey just want to ask is a document always associated with a package to be in rosetta right?
<mdke> jsgotangco: rosetta works exactly like everything else in launchpad, so you can have a template on a package (if it is uploaded with the package to soyuz) or on a product (such as ubuntu-doc)
<jsgotangco> ahhh
<mdke> mvirkkil: how about running tidy over the docbook or something similar during rendering?
#ubuntu-doc 2006-06-24
<nixternal> http://home.comcast.net/~nixternal/images/misc/lappy.png
<nixternal> the best desktop ever
<Madpilot> "Life! I have created life! No... wait, nevermind... just created documentation." - from the new wiki's RecentPages ;)
<Plug> Is there a wiki page with some pictures of Ubiquity installing that I could link to?
<dsas> Plug: Not that I know of. osdir usually have lots of screenshots though, try http://shots.osdir.com/slideshows/slideshow.php?release=659&slide=4
<Madpilot> there is a set somewhere on the wiki, I think
<mdke> morning
<Madpilot> hi mdke 
<mpt> wow
* mpt admires the Ubuntu listings on lulu.com
<mpt> that's pretty cool
<mpt> are they selling at all?
<mdke> mpt: yeah, lemme see
<Madpilot> which reminds me: new covers for translations... /me goes to poke Inkscape to life...
<mdke> 112 since we removed the possibility to download pdfs from there.
<mdke> total of 1327 if you include the whole period we've had them up (which include lots of downloaded pdfs)
<mpt> the period does, or the 1327 does?
<mpt> I mean, does the 1327 = sales + downloads, or just sales?
<mdke> sales and downloads
<mdke> it doesn't distinguish. But since we removed the possibility of downloading there have been 112 sales
<mpt> hmm
<mpt> get the Ubuntu Marketing Team on the case :-)
<rob> people can actually purchase PDFs on the web site, we just charge $0 for them
<mdke> rob: no, we removed that a while ago
<rob> yeah I know, I meant in general
<mdke> mpt: :)
<mdke> rob: so by "we" you mean "lulu"?
<rob> s/charge/charged
<mdke> ah
<rob> I should mention I have had a splitting headache all day :)
<rob> (and still pumped out some fixes to a package)
* mpt throws another cat amongst the pigeons in ubuntu-doc@
<mpt> (not to suggest that any of these fine people are pigeons, of course)
<Madpilot> anyone here speak enough French to answer a grammar question for me?
<Madpilot> Should "projet de documentation d'Ubuntu" have a capital D in documentation, or not?
<mpt> If projet doesn't, why should documentation?
* mpt is inclined to guess that they both should
<Madpilot> likewise
<mdke> boh
<Madpilot> mdke, you've got the Portugese translation listed twice on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MatthewEast/CompleteBookTranslations - there's already a cover for it
<mdke> how odd
<mdke> sorry
<Madpilot> np
<Madpilot> Czech, French & Thai UDG covers done, uploading in a moment
* mdke builds the pdfs
<Madpilot> http://ubuntu-ca.org/ubuntu-books/UDG_cs.png
<Madpilot> http://ubuntu-ca.org/ubuntu-books/UDG_fr.png
<Madpilot> http://ubuntu-ca.org/ubuntu-books/UDG_th.png
* rob notes that the last person who edited RestrictedFormats on the wiki has the exact same name and live in the same country and state of that country as a person who used to write professionaly for PC Authority (a PC mag over here);
<rob> s/live/lives
<rob> (and that person used to be a Fedora nut)
<Madpilot> think they got converted? ;)
<rob> I'm thinking so, hopefully he might get involved with the doc team
<rob> also wrote https://help.ubuntu.com/community/AppleRemoteDesktop
<Madpilot> gah, why don't the Kubuntu Desktop Guide translations include the .omf file that the UDG translations do?
<mdke> heh
<mdke> the omf files are for the evil scrollkeeper
<mdke> which Kubuntu, fortunately, doesn't use
<Madpilot> they're the easiest place to get the translations for my covers, too
<Madpilot> robotgeek's little script hunts thru them to help me :)
<mdke> yeah
<mpt> mdke, stuff on help.ubuntu.com doesn't need CategoryDocumentation any more, does it?
<mdke> mpt: no, we can remove it and start trying to add useful categories
<Madpilot> http://ubuntu-ca.org/ubuntu-books/ServerGuide_pt.png
<Madpilot> http://ubuntu-ca.org/ubuntu-books/ServerGuide_it.png
<Madpilot> http://ubuntu-ca.org/ubuntu-books/ServerGuide_es.png
<Madpilot> http://ubuntu-ca.org/ubuntu-books/ServerGuide_sv.png
<Madpilot> ServerGuide_borkborkbork.png ;)
<Madpilot> http://ubuntu-ca.org/ubuntu-books/KDG_fr.png
<Madpilot> http://ubuntu-ca.org/ubuntu-books/KDG_cs.png
<Madpilot> http://ubuntu-ca.org/ubuntu-books/KDG_pl.png
<mdke> thanks dude
<Madpilot> mdke, that's the whole lot
<mdke> indeed it is
<mdke> awesome
<Madpilot> wow, Inkscape is a RAM-hungry app... might have to get that 2nd Gb :)
<Madpilot> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MatthewEast/CompleteBookTranslations updated too
<mdke> Madpilot: thanks muchly. Am uploading now
<Madpilot> cool
<Madpilot> are the translations selling too, or is everyone buying the English originals?
<mdke> not sure
<mdke> Madpilot: by the way, there might be a job that Corey is interested in on the Ubuntu website - the marketing one. Tell him to check it out
<Madpilot> will do
<Madpilot> interesting, they're looking for a full time "Community Manager"
<mpt> "Cat Herder" :-)
<rob> ?
<Madpilot> mpt, heh
* mdke nods
<Madpilot> "Beater of Sense into Certain Unnamed *cough*Artwork*cough* Teams" ;)
* mdke is thinking of applying
<mpt> for which?
<Madpilot> Cat Herder?
<mdke> yes
<mdke> I like cats
<mpt> You're hired!
<mpt> oh, wait, I'm not in HR
* mdke damns
<jenda> Hmm...
<jenda> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WifiDocs/WirelessCardsSupported
<jenda> that page has asterisks marking a few entries... but nothing to explain what they mean.
<Madpilot> no idea
<jenda> hm... seems mdke could know... ping?
<mpt> hmmmmmmmm
<mpt> Why does the table of contents have lots of inline CSS?
<Madpilot> which toc?
<mpt> Should the help.ubuntu.com style sheet be doing that automatically?
<mpt> in WifiDocs/WirelessCardsSupported
* mpt wonders if there's a macro to print a table of links<->URLs at the end of a wiki page
<mpt> it appears not
<Madpilot> that tablestyle stuff is pretty standard all over our wikis - it's pretty crude HTML/CSS markup, but it works
<mpt> That page could be narrower and easier to read if some of the link URLs were hidden, but that wouldn't be nice if you were printing it out, unless you were printing it with Internet Explorer's "Print table of links" option
* mpt wishes Firefox would hurry up and gain that feature
<Madpilot> hmm, on anything but 1280x1024 that table slops over the edge of the screen :|
<Madpilot> need sleep - suddenly it's almost 0430...
<mpt> boom
<jenda> bang?
<mgalvin> hi all, anyone around
<mgalvin> trappist: ping?
<jenda> hey there mgalvin
<mgalvin> hey jenda
<mgalvin> i was just wondering if anyone had a spare moment to review UWN Issue 4
<mgalvin> i would like to mail it out soon
<crimsun_> sure, link?
<mgalvin> crimsun_: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter/Issue4
<mgalvin> thanks
<jjesse> mgalvin; looked good to me
<mgalvin> jjesse: thanks
<jjesse> no problem
<jenda> mgalvin: looks good ;)
<crimsun_> in Feature of the Week, that would be "perform" not "perforom"
<crimsun_> and "pattern" not "patter"
<crimsun_> the final sentence should use a singular "rule" instead of the plural for number consistency
<crimsun_> it would also be good to use consistent capitalisation for Edgy.
<crimsun_> (cf. Coming Next Week)
<jenda> heh :) I missed those. Should prolly go to bed.
<crimsun_> same section, ..."and hear" not "and here"
<crimsun_> otherwise it looks fine
<crimsun_> .oO( "and hear" implies audio -- is that intentional? perhaps "and read" is more precise? )
<mgalvin> crimsun_: thanks, i fix those now
<crimsun_> np
<nixternal> jjesse: you got mail
<nixternal> i have in front of me a copy of the rules for ms...i called and my buddy said refer to it. it is linked in the email i just sent out
<jjesse> nixternal: thanks
<nixternal> no problem
#ubuntu-doc 2006-06-25
<Madpilot> hi all
<Madpilot> mpt, ping
<mgalvin> Madpilot: nice one about gLabels, i'll put it in #5
<Madpilot> mgalvin, thanks
<mgalvin> thats exactly the types of things we need
<Madpilot> what do you think of screenshots in UWN? I'd like to write a blurb on baobab, and it's just so much easier to explain with a single screenshot...
<mgalvin> i should actually write up some guidelines so that people to stray to much off point
<Madpilot> http://www.warbard.ca/temp/baobab_screenshot.png in this case
* mgalvin looks
<mpt> Madpilot, pong
<Madpilot> mpt, see above about screenshots in UWN & baobab
<mgalvin> hmm, since it gets mailed to ubuntu-news right now i am not sure if its the best idea, but it would be nice to be able to use screenshots... if we get to have an rss feed on the fridge soon which would allow us to direct everyone to view UWN on the wiki it would certainly work
<mgalvin> i would like to see screenshots, i think we can, we just need to figure out a good way to deal with them on ubuntu-news
<Madpilot> yeah
<mgalvin> we could just say something like.... to see images, etc... view UWN on the wiki, and be done with it
<mgalvin> that screenshot isn't loading... baobab is that file system usage graphing thing right?
<mpt> Madpilot, what is the output format and target market of UWN? To be honest I haven't seen it yet
<Madpilot> hmm... output format is the wiki, plus various text-only forms (email, etc)
<mpt> which wiki?
<mgalvin> mpt: the target is a mix of canonical management, developers and community
<mgalvin> wiki.ubuntu.com
<mpt> ok
<mgalvin> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter
<mpt> As long as it's something people look for on the understanding it's a newsletter, I don't see a problem
<mpt> The problem comes when people look for help about something in the help viewer, they get shown a screenshot, and think that the screenshot is the window they're supposed to be using
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-doc:irc.freenode.net] : Ubuntu Documentation Team http://doc.ubuntu.com or https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam | backlog at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs | SVN - https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos | Please observe the Ubuntu CoC @ http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct | Next meeting: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/MeetingAgenda | Ubuntu's docs in dead-tree format: http://www.lulu.com/ubuntu-doc
<nixternal> anybody looked over that Ubuntu Hacks book that recently came out?
* mdke_ hi's
<mpt> hi ho
<mpt_> Does anyone know where that list is of the most commonly asked questions in #ubuntu?
<jsgotangco> hey
<mdke> mpt_: CommonQuestions
<mdke> morning jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> mdke: hi!
<mpt_> mdke, thanks
<mpt_> So the ones relevant to on-screen help are
<mpt_> * Where's the root password?
<mpt_> * Why won't MP3/Divx/DVDs/Quicktime/Realmedia/Flash/Java work?
<mpt_> * the various hardware questions
<mpt_> * the various software installation questions
<mpt_> those are all depressing in different ways :-)
<mdke> mpt_: yeah :)
<mpt_> http://windowshelp.microsoft.com/Windows/en-US/default.mspx
<mpt_> that's interesting
<sladen> that is interesting
<sladen> it's beta too, which means it's fairly recent
<sladen> information "for IT Pros"
<mdke> mpt_: <3 icons
<mpt_> yes
<nixternal> jjesse: i am open at any time...btw "You got mail"
<jjesse> nixternal: thanks :)
#ubuntu-doc 2007-06-19
<bdmurray> Is there a way to hide an unhelpful page at help.ubuntu.com?  I don't really want to delete it but I don't want anybody reading it either.  It seems like it needs some work.
<nixternal> don't know about hiding a page really
<Burgundavia> bdmurray: which page?
<bdmurray> Burgundavia: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/reportbug
<Burgundavia> bdmurray: what do you want to do with it?
<jjesse> official ubuntu book 2nd edition can be pre-orderd on amazon now :)
<Burgundavia> wow, cool
<jjesse> http://www.amazon.com/Official-Ubuntu-Book-2nd/dp/0132354136/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/102-1370066-4500112?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1182208599&sr=8-1
<bdmurray> Burgundavia: I don't want to take the time to fix it all but because it is _so_ wrong I don't want anyone reading it
<Burgundavia> bdmurray: then redirect it to the reporting bugs page
<bdmurray> hmm
<nixternal> the guy who created that page was just in here the other day...I think he recently joined the bug squad as well
<Burgundavia> ahh, ok
<nixternal> jjesse: when is the book due out?
<jjesse> umm
<nixternal> July 6th possibly
<jjesse> loko at teh link slacker
<nixternal> the page really don't say
<nixternal> I am looking at it
<jjesse> oh didn't realize it
<Burgundavia> nixternal: you will proof read the UWN now
<Burgundavia> :)
<nixternal> haha
<nixternal> I like the way you worded that
* nixternal looks it over
<jjesse> my wife talks like that
<jjesse> jonathan you will take out the trash
<jjesse> jonathan you will walk the dog
<nixternal> #45 I take it
<nixternal> hahahahaha
<Burgundavia> yep
<nixternal> looks good
<crimsun> editing.
<crimsun> ...or not, since nixternal still has the lock.
<crimsun> hurry up, vista user
<jjesse> dang so what's the story about always blaming nixternal for using vista?
<Burgundavia> because Vista is pure crap
<Burgundavia> crimsun: you end up editing?'
<crimsun> no, because I'm still waiting to hear from nixternal
<crimsun> he had the lock last I checked
<Burgundavia> right
<nixternal> there shouldn't be a lock ;p
<nixternal> I forgot to close the tab
<crimsun> pssht.
<crimsun> ok, will edit now
<Burgundavia> if you are still editing, I will wait until i get back to send it
<crimsun> (still editing)
<crimsun> completed editing.
<shirish> hi all, anybody up?
<guglielf> hi folks, a quick question about the copyright notice in the footer of {wiki,help}.ubuntu.com
<guglielf> on the italian wiki we have recently switched to 2005-2007 as the copyright date set in the footer
<guglielf> shouldn't be like that also on the international sites?
<ubotu> New bug: #118895 in ubuntu-docs (main) "Help for desktop-effects has bad link to Compiz website" [Undecided,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/118895
#ubuntu-doc 2007-06-20
* #ubuntu-doc  [freenode-info]  if you're at a conference and other people are having trouble connecting, please mention it to staff: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#gettinghelp
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<SoGo> sera
<guglielf> SoGo: join #ubuntu-it-doc for the italian channel
<SoGo> :D
<nixternal> good evening SoGo :)
<SoGo> denkiu
<SoGo> raga
<nixternal> actually afternoon here
<ubotu> New bug: #121388 in ubuntu-doc "ServerGuide: postfix: self-signed certificate page missing (404)" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/121388
<guglielf> nixternal: didn't know you speak italian ;)
<nixternal> I don't...but I know sera :)
<guglielf> lol
<nixternal> living in Chicago, you learn bits and pieces of all kinds of languages
<ubotu> New bug: #121399 in ubuntu-doc "ServerGuide: moinmoin: no python2.4-moinmoin in Feisty" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/121399
#ubuntu-doc 2007-06-21
<kontais> hello,
<kontais> hello burgundavia
<Burgundavia> hey kontais
<kontais> moniring sir,
<kontais> this is 8:16 am in china.
<somerville32> Hey
<j1mc> hey
<jjesse> hey
<somerville32> I've... forgot my svn access information, lol
<somerville32> Now no one wants to talk to me :P
<jjesse> sorry somerville32
<jjesse> was in another window, svn access infromation came in an encrypted email
<somerville32> I've found the e-mail anyhow but I don't have the gpg key here to decrypt it
<jjesse> decrpyt the email and you will have your syn password
<jjesse> umm then you need to file a request to get a new password
<somerville32> I'll just wait until I get my main machine back
<jjesse> somerville32: i don't remember the password to my gpg key :(
<somerville32> hehe
<mpt> Wharty!
<mpt> Just when I thought the first Ubuntu release would be immune from misspelling
<jjesse> mpt: where is that referenced at?  thats funny
<mpt> ubuntu-mobile@ mailing list
<jjesse> oh
<mpt> actually I haven't seen a misspelling for "Breezy" yet
<mpt> but lots of Fiestys and Gustys
<jjesse> i mispell feisty a lot
<mpt> I also see a lot of "Ubuntu x.y", where x.0y is an Ubuntu version but x.y is not
<somerville33> What happened to the wiki?
<somerville33> I just lost what I was working on because the authentication database is unavailable.
<somerville33> Oh, launchpad is offline
<Burgundavia_> indeed
<somerville33> I lost my work on the wiki : (
<nixternal> somerville33: that is why I do all of my wiki work in a text editor :)
<somerville33> hehe
<Burgundavia_> somerville33: up again
<somerville33> Burgundavia_: Already editing again, thanks :] 
<somerville33> But I'm substantially more tired now, haha
<Burgundavia_> fell off the peak, did you?
<somerville33> Aye
<somerville33> Does yelp allow launching of applications via a URI in the document?
<Burgundavia_> I have no idea
<Burgundavia_> try it
<somerville33> For the sake of the discussion, if it did not, do you think it would be a good idea to allow it?
<Burgundavia_> what is the context?
<somerville33> Actually, I figured it out. Thanks :)
<Admiral_Chicago> somerville33: what was that ping about in x-devel?
<somerville33> It is 2:34am - I don't remember :P
<somerville33> We're talking about x-d-b today
<somerville33> *we were
<Admiral_Chicago> ah yea i saw that
<somerville33> I updated the x-d-b spec just now
<somerville33> I've got rid of the initial crud
<somerville33> And cleaned up the other sections
<somerville33> I also added some comments to assist in finishing the design and implementation sections
<Admiral_Chicago> awesome that'll help us out
<Admiral_Chicago> do you think we need a spec in LP?
<somerville33> There already is one
<nixternal> rm -rf ~/ubuntu-docs/trunk/xubuntu && svn commit -m "muhahahahah"
<Admiral_Chicago> got a link?
<Admiral_Chicago> hahaa
<somerville33> On wiki,  one sec
<somerville33> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Specifications/Gutsy/DocumentationBrowser#preview
<somerville33> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/xubuntu-documentation-browser
<Admiral_Chicago> looking.
<somerville33> Burgundavia, nixternal: Who should be the approver on that spec?
<somerville33> I have keybuk right now, lol
<Admiral_Chicago> i've hopped on to that one
<Burgundavia> somerville33: the devil
<Burgundavia> I would pass it by one of the main devs
<nixternal> somerville33: Xubuntu core-dev I am guessing
<nixternal> Jani?
<Burgundavia> as it will require a new piece of software in main
<Burgundavia> keybuk is a good person, actually, nixternal
<nixternal> true
<LaserJock> mdke_: you up?
<Burgundavia> hey Madpilot
<Madpilot> evening Burgundavia
<Flannel> So, when you two talk... do you think "brian" and "corey" or do you think mad... and burg...?
<mdke_> damn
<mdke_> come back LaserJock
<mdke_> somerville32: yes, it uses whatever technology the rest of Gnome applications do. I think it's a good idea to use it for Xubuntu, if you can
<somerville32> mdke_: Unfortunately, we can't use yelp for Xubuntu
<mdke_> ah
<somerville32> So if yelp supports launching of applications via a anchor, then I imagine we'll implement it in our browser as well
<somerville32> *an
<mdke_> what about that help viewer that wikipedia are using for the offline version?
<mdke_> apparently it's pretty good, can't remember its name
<mdke_> gtg
<Burgundavia> I think that is qt
<mdke_> I didn't get that impression, I've seen it with a Gnome theme and apparently it works on Windows too
<somerville32> It is certainly something we can look at
<somerville32> mdke_: Who should I talk to about svn password reset?
<mdke_> somerville32: I can request one. What's the reason?
<somerville32> I don't have the gpg key to decode it anymore, lol
<mdke_> do you have a new one?
<somerville32> I can make one
<somerville32> I'm working off a live-cd until I get my machine back
<somerville32> Once I get my machine back, I'll have the gpg key
<mdke_> they won't send you a plain text password
<somerville32> I know
<somerville32> But I can create a new gpg key, upload it, and then get them to reset my password
<mdke_> and it's a bit dodgy practise to create another gpg key just for that... if you'll get your old key back, it might be worth waiting
<mdke_> I'll ask people to apply your patches without review
<mdke_> how long til you get your machine back?
<LaserJock> mdke_: sorry ;-)
<mdke_> there you are :)
<LaserJock> element sect1: validity error : Element sect1 content does not follow the DTD, expecting blah blah blah
<LaserJock> I've looked through the offending section
<LaserJock> the error has at the end:
<LaserJock> got (title para screen para para para para para para para para screen para para para para CDATA para para para para para )
<LaserJock> I wondered if that CDATA was the problem
<mdke_> could be
<LaserJock> this section has a fair amoutn of code
<LaserJock> I wondered if $() type things would mess it up
<mdke_> the whole error would help
<mdke_> maybe plan around with commenting out sections
<mdke_> or bits
<mdke_> plan/play*
<LaserJock> http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/26652/
<mdke_> that's not a very helpful error :)
<mdke_> guess it must be the cdata bit - that usually means some text outside a tag instead of inside
<LaserJock> mdke_: hmm, it's been too long, how do I do a comment in docbook?
<LaserJock> mdke_: hmm would "'s cause that error?
<LaserJock> mdke_: nvm, I figured it out. there was a paragraph outside any <para></para>
<mdke_> LaserJock: that would explain it. Strange docbook conversion though, how was it done?
<LaserJock> I'm actually not quite sure
<LaserJock> btw, has anybody had problems commiting lately to the repo
<LaserJock> mdke_: actually it was manually converted, I thought he used one of the moin2docbook tools
<mdke_> ah, right
<mdke_> problems like delay?
<mdke_> jjesse: ssh is fixed now
<LaserJock> ah, it worked now
<LaserJock> it took forever to upload the commit
<jjesse> mdke_: thanks
<mdke_> LaserJock: yes, I've had that a lot
<mdke_> it delays after the file transfer
<LaserJock> yeah
<LaserJock> ok, so it's not just me
#ubuntu-doc 2007-06-22
<bdmurray> does kde help center support docbook?
<Admiral_Chicago> yea it does bhuvan
<Admiral_Chicago> err bdmurray
<Admiral_Chicago> bhuvan: sorry about the hilight
<bhuvan> Admiral_Chicago: i dont understand what you mean by that!?
<bhuvan> Admiral_Chicago: oh, i assume it was typo
<Admiral_Chicago> it was bhuvan
<bdmurray> Admiral_Chicago: I was looking at a bug regarding celestia
<bdmurray> and the handbook being unavailble
<bdmurray> but I'm feeling clueless
<Admiral_Chicago> got a link?
<bdmurray> to the bug?
<bdmurray> it is 91308
<Admiral_Chicago> looking
<Admiral_Chicago> hmm, perhaps request the uploaded to celestia to look at it
<nixternal> bdmurray: docbook yes, xml no
<bdmurray> how does kde help know what file to look for?
<nixternal> .desktop
<nixternal> errr, I take that back
<nixternal> .desktop or it is installed in /usr/share/doc/kde/HTML/en
<nixternal> replace en with country code of course
<nixternal> kstars is the kde equivalent I believe
<bdmurray> nope, there is no equivalent to celestia
<nixternal> hehe
<bdmurray> if you haven't seen it you should check it out.
<nixternal> I don't see celestia documentation in the package
<bdmurray> there is a docbook.gz
<bdmurray> index.docbook.gz
<nixternal> found it
<nixternal> index.docbook is what KHelpCenter needs
<bdmurray> I gunzip'ed it and it didn't help
<nixternal> I am going to run a quick debuild on it to see where it places the kde documentation
<bdmurray> I got it figured out
<bdmurray>  /usr/share/doc/kde/HTML/en/celestia
<bdmurray> the are 2 problems afaict
<bdmurray> index.docbook is gzipped
<bdmurray> and the .desktop file has no reference to it
<bdmurray> I unzipped it on my installed package and added info about where to find the docbook file and worked
<nixternal> hrmm, it won't even build on my machine
<bdmurray> I'll try and fix it / package it tomorrow
<nixternal> I would just move the src/celestia/kde/doc/celestia/*.jpg and *.docbook into /usr/share/doc/kde/HTML/en/celestia/
<nixternal> is it building the index.docbook as a .gz file?
<bdmurray> yes afaict
<nixternal> the .gz file would go in /usr/share/doc/celeste
<nixternal> but that won't get picked up by KHelpCenter though
<bdmurray> so a .gz file won't work with khelpcenter?
<nixternal> nope
<nixternal> only .docbook
<nixternal> or .html
<nixternal> kde docs are .docbook and kubuntu docs are .html..so I have to build out the xml into html for the packaging
#ubuntu-doc 2007-06-23
<bdmurray> hello
<bdmurray> it's that bug guy
<bdmurray> coming to _bug_ somebody
<bdmurray> :)
* nixternal runs and hides
<nixternal> brb
<bdmurray> sure
<ubotu> New bug: #121810 in ubuntu-docs (main) "Gutsy Install Disk Boots up with Feisty Id Info" [Undecided,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/121810
<bdmurray> I was going to ask about that bug
<nixternal> bdmurray: that won't get fixed until a Gutsy doc package gets uploaded
<nixternal> no hurry to fix it really, but it will get fixed with the next doc upload
<bdmurray> Did you read how it is confusing what version I am running?
<nixternal> hah
<nixternal> this bug report is funny
<nixternal> bdmurray: that is a duplicate of 120509 and 120508
<nixternal> and anyone who has a loss of labor/time/money whatever with a "development release", needs to lose it :)
* nixternal wants to set that as a duplicate and let the guy know we will take our sweet ass time getting that one fixed :)
<bdmurray> While they are looking in the "wrong" spot for version information it is interesting.
<bdmurray> Wouldn't it be somewhat trivial to increment the version?
<nixternal> bdmurray: it has already been done in SVN, all we need to do is create a gutsy package for the docs
<nixternal> but seeing as we haven't begun adding stuff yet, it won't be but a little bit yet until we do
<bdmurray> haven't & won't & but a little bit means soon?
<nixternal> month at the soonest I am guessing
<nixternal> it isn't anything major, just the About Ubuntu still says feisty ;)
<nixternal> it is fixed in SVN, just need a Gutsy package built for the docs, and it isn't worth building a new version just to change Feisty to Gutsy at this time, especially since that would be the only change right now
<bdmurray> cool so around tribe 3 then? is the normal point in the release cycle?
<nixternal> sounds about right
<nixternal> I would count on after mdke_'s wedding :)
<fijam> hello
<jjesse> made changes to adept guide specifically to kubuntu
<jjesse> and uploaded to bzr branch
<nixternal> rock on with your bad self
<nixternal> I need to start getting on some stuff
<jjesse> i'm getting ready to have some review made on the changes i've made so i'll elt you know when i'm ready for that
<nixternal> roger that...we have BarCamp Chicago today, so I am going to get in the shower here soon and make my way to a train
<jjesse> have fun at barcamp chicago :)
<nixternal> bah
<nixternal> I wish I could just drive, but you can't park anywhere around the place
<nixternal> I hate when people decide to hold a fairly decent sized event when the only way in and out is the L trains
<jjesse> that does suck
<nixternal> so I have to drive out by O'hare, on the other side, 30 minute drive, hop on a train, 30 minute ride, and walk another 15...when I could just drive straight there in 30-45
<nixternal> you ever been up to Hart(heart?) Michigan?
* nixternal leaves
<ubotu> New bug: #42911 in postfix (main) "postfix cannot read saslauthd socket (dup-of: 105378)" [Medium,New]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/42911
#ubuntu-doc 2007-06-24
<fijam> hello
<dsas> hi fijam
#ubuntu-doc 2008-06-16
<SynthroidMan> http://synthroid.co.uk/
<jjesse> trying to checkout kubuntu intrepid docs and getting a message on KnitPackRespotiroty is not compatatible with repoisotyr?
#ubuntu-doc 2008-06-18
<sybille_> Hi, I just added a page to the ubuntu community wiki, but without reading to the end of the instructions concerning good communication.
<sybille_> So basically I didn't ask any one before posting...
<sybille_> But at least I'm here now....
<sybille_> Here's the page I added: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Zotero/
<sybille_> Please let me know if there are problems or what I should be doing differently than I have. Thanks!
<sybille_> And I'm sorry not to have communicated beforehand.
<vbabiy> hey guys is this the correct room to get help on with devhelp and writing the xml files for it
<TrAndy> Hi there! Discovering the community forums I have noticed a lot of guys having problems on installing USB keyboards and asking for help. The questions are often recursive so it would be nice to write a how-to explaining how to install such a keyboard possibly without hassle... Most guys are in trouble else with the early stages e.g. BIOS setup and grub menu' selection. This is a task for me! any interest?
<moreal> @PSuserinfo !PhotoFans 6.32	4.12.080609+b34	ON	:C3AA1PJ98UT:	50088	0	nofilter
<moreal> @PSuserinfo !PhotoFans 6.32	4.12.080609+b34	ON	:C3AA1PJ98UT:	50088	0	nofilter
#ubuntu-doc 2008-06-19
<mdke> TrAndy: that sounds like a good idea - you could make a new page which is linked here - https://help.ubuntu.com/community/InputDevices
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, starting to delete pages?
<ruiboon> hi. may i know if there is any policy re spam attachment in wiki? is it to delete them?
<Rocket2DMn> ruiboon, do you have a link?
<ruiboon> Rocket2DMn: one such page is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Fra67ysi?action=AttachFile
<Rocket2DMn> that is weird, i see .bin files when i try to see them
<Rocket2DMn> yes, the spam will need to be deleted, but i dont think it will let you do that
<ruiboon> Rocket2DMn: that is a spammer account
<Rocket2DMn> ok, give me a minute so we can file a report in the correct place
<ruiboon> Rocket2DMn: if you search for "site:wiki.ubuntu.com iPhone" in google, you will see all the links pointing to this account attachment page
<ruiboon> Rocket2DMn: i think it has been filled in bug 224971
<Rocket2DMn> ah yes there it is
<Rocket2DMn> you can add the link to that bug report
<Rocket2DMn> Phil or Matthew will be able to delete that stuff
<ruiboon> Rocket2DMn: ok. thanks
<Rocket2DMn> no, thank you.
<vbabiy> Hey Any one around?
<EagleScreen> hi all
<EagleScreen> i need help for validate my GPG on Launchpad
<EagleScreen> i ma reading this howto: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/GnuPrivacyGuardHowto
<tormod> EagleScreen: I am just fixing up that linl
<tormod> *link
<EagleScreen> thanks you
<tormod> EagleScreen: you probably understand that you should replace <username> by your LP username?
<EagleScreen> i think it autologin me... how can I be sure?
<tormod> well go to your LP homepage and click "Update OpenPGP keys"
<EagleScreen> i go to https://launchpad.net/ and i am already logged in
<EagleScreen> what to do now?
<tormod> what I said?
<tormod> see also https://help.launchpad.net/ImportingYourOpenPGPKey
<EagleScreen> I do not find Update OpenPGP keys at launchpad home page
<EagleScreen> ok, thanks you very much, i did it
<tormod> EagleScreen: thanks for reporting that broken link
<vbabiy> Hey guys is this the correct room to ask about how to write docs for devhelp
<Old_Soldier> vbabiy: someone might be able to answer that but mostly we are involved in patching the existing docs
<vbabiy> Old_Soldier: okay any idea where I should to help. I Want to help out pygtk with docs but they are in opposite timezones so impossible to catch them.
<Old_Soldier> vbabiy: sorry , i have no idea
<vbabiy> Thanks
 * bimberi finishes doing a few HelpWiki deletions, leaving the easy ones for mdke :P
<EagleScreen> hello
<EagleScreen> i think an ubuntu documentation may be wrong
#ubuntu-doc 2008-06-20
<Old_Soldier> hello EagleScreen  i was afk for a bit there, what section do you believe to be wrong?
<EagleScreen> hi
<EagleScreen> i am reading this manual: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PbuilderHowto
<EagleScreen> go to the title Change base.tgz Location
<EagleScreen> and look the code below
<Old_Soldier> i'm not familiar with pbuilder. if you think the code is wrong you could submit a bug with the document and explain what is wrong and what it should say.
<EagleScreen> submit a bug in Launchpad?
<EagleScreen> ok i will do it
<bimberi> EagleScreen: No need to submit a bug.  It's a wiki.  If it's wrong you can edit it.
<EagleScreen> i will try to do it, i didnt know that i could edit that
<bimberi> Oh, sorry Old_Soldier, my post was a bit terse in the context or yours (which I hadn't read properly). :|
<Old_Soldier> no worries bimberi, I don't offend easily and I'm always open for correction
<Old_Soldier> I had misread his post as well i was thinking the online official docs not the wiki.
<bodhi_zazen> anyone advice on how to change my email on the mailing list to bodhi.zazen@ubutnu.com ?
<Rocket2DMn> bodhi_zazen, i think you just need to unsubscribe yourself (from the bottom of the mailing list page) then add yourself under the new email
<cody-somerville> no need to unsubscribe yourself
<cody-somerville> If you login, you can update every mailing list on the serve to use your new e-mail :)
<Rocket2DMn> ah so you can, sign in to view the list, then pick your email out of it.  you can change from there
<cody-somerville> you don't even have to do that
<cody-somerville> just go to settings or w/e
<Rocket2DMn> ill shutup now
<bodhi_zazen> thanks cody-somerville
<bodhi_zazen> got it, logged on using a very very old password, updated account
<bodhi_zazen> ocked myself out with the new pw as CAPS LOCK WAS ON, lol
 * bodhi_zazen done now
<jtmoney> there is an error on https://help.ubuntu.com/community/AjaxTerm ... neither it, nor the server guide that it links to have any reference to /etc/apache2/ssl/apache.pem
<jtmoney> yet it is part of the config file
<DougieRichardson> @jtmoney, is it reported as a bug?
<bodhi_zazen> anyone here at the moment who might be able to help me with the mailing list ?
<cody-somerville> bodhi_zazen, just ask your question instead of asking for help :P
<bodhi_zazen> I changed my e-mail to bodhi.zazen@ubuntu.com
<bodhi_zazen> now my messages are "bounced" saying I am not a member of the mailing list, but when I re-reginster for the list it says I am already a member, lol
<cody-somerville> You must not be sending as @ubuntu.com then
<cody-somerville> the @ubuntu.com address is just a forwarder
<cody-somerville> You need to configure your client to send as @ubuntu.com
<bodhi_zazen> no, ubuntu.com forwards to another e-mail
<bodhi_zazen> OK, thanks
<cody-somerville> np
#ubuntu-doc 2008-06-21
<j1mc> mdke: are you around?
#ubuntu-doc 2008-06-22
<moreal> @PSuserinfo !PhotoFans 6.32	4.12.080609+b34	ON	:C3AA1PJ6C8C:	50088	0	nofilter
#ubuntu-doc 2009-06-15
<j1mc> hi billybigrigger
<j1mc> hi all
<knome> hello
<cody-somerville> Hey
<j1mc> xubuntu / xfce are considering documentation markup approaches
<cody-somerville> It looks very neat
<j1mc> looking at both GNOME's new "mallard" and python-docutils+sphinx
<j1mc> here's info about the markup in mallard: http://www.gnome.org/~shaunm/mallard/spec.html
<knome> i think if the documentating people are at all familiar to xml/xhtml, the mallard syntax looks better.
<j1mc> here's a sample of reStructureText+sphinx: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/195983/
<j1mc> mallard has a simpler markup than docbook, and scratches some itches for documentation writers
<knome> what about the (default) appearance of mallard?
<j1mc> anything xml-based it easier to translate than non-xml docs
<knome> i mean, the default p-docutils+sphinx appearance (http://docs.python.org/dev/) is really neat and i can see how we could easily adapt it and create a(n) (x)ubuntu theme
<j1mc> and really... anyone who wants to contribute to docs is going to have to learn *some* syntax
<knome> true, but as i have understood, we have had some difficulties in getting new documentation guys
<knome> so the lower the barrier the better
<j1mc> but... i have concerns about having both xubuntu docs and ubuntu installed
<j1mc> the gnome doc guy has told me some of how it might work, but i'm not convinced
<knome> is there any way to test it for example in karmic alphas/betas with some really simple docs?
<JPohlmann> I'd expect a good documentation viewer to treat all installed documentation trees equal.
<j1mc> http://philbull.googlepages.com/Screenshot-HowcanIsendafiletosomeone.png
<j1mc> http://philbull.googlepages.com/yelp_mallard.png
<knome> that's ok as well
<JPohlmann> The most crucial thing is integration of individual component docs and different documentation sources.
<j1mc> the yelp developer did say that he'd be willing to create a sort of 'yelp library' that could be used by a different browser
<JPohlmann> Syntxes can be exchanged.
<j1mc> and JPohlmann seemed to be ok with the dependencies of that
<j1mc> JPohlmann: can you explain what you mean about "integration of different component docs"?
<j1mc> I still think DITA is better for all of this, anyway
<j1mc> DITA can do conditional texts... saying, "out of all of these subjects, only show the user ones that are relevant to Xubuntu"
<JPohlmann> If it's easy to write a doc viewer on top of that library, that would be cool. Unless yelp has only few dependencies and is able to show docs from different sources, then we wouldn't need another viewer.
<JPohlmann> j1mc: Well, assume you have separate docs for two applications and install them both.
<j1mc> Belinda Lopez from Canonical is here, and she's interested in DITA, too, but more for her own learning / training needs
<JPohlmann> The viewer needs to show both and needs to provide some kind of entry point so that users are able to navigate to the docs of both apps.
<j1mc> the GNOME doc lead is here, but they are all hacking on GNOME docs right now, so I think it would be better to talk to him about these concerns at a later time.
<j1mc> he's really bright, though. after all, he built this whole xml language
<j1mc> hacks on yelp and docutils...
<j1mc> still, the language is fairly experimental, and is not feature-complete yet
<JPohlmann> *sigh* ;)
<JPohlmann> Really, that leaves me without a clue what we should go for.
<j1mc> right
<j1mc> sorry
<j1mc> i am typing thing out in IRC, but i think i need to step back and look at things a little more clearly
<j1mc> look at what we need, and what each approach provides
<cody-somerville> :)
<j1mc> we don't want to adopt mallard and then have it not meet our needs or create conflicts with gnome
<JPohlmann> Right. But sphinx doesn't provide any integration or detection-on-the-fly features.
<j1mc> that's true
<JPohlmann> That seems more and more important.
<j1mc> but mallard currently doesn't include entities, and those make xml-based doc writing much easier.
<JPohlmann> Detection-on-the-fly is something only a special doc viewer can do anyway. HTML can't do that ;)
<j1mc> without entities, you end up writing the same stuff a bunch of times, and there's too much oppty for error
<cody-somerville> j1mc, Does mallard plan to include that or are the developers of mallard against it for some reason?
<j1mc> cody-somerville: good question, but I'm not sure.
<j1mc> this is what i'd really like to see: http://www.flatironssolutions.com/_webapp_973617/Dynamic_Content_Delivery_Using_DITA
<j1mc> see the pdf
<j1mc> that's more complex, though.
<j1mc> this is a good example of the advantages of DITA:http://www.uxmatters.com/mt/archives/2009/05/architecting-user-assistance-topics-for-reuse-case-examples-in-dita.php
<j1mc> but the DITA syntax is only marginally less complex than docbook, and authoring for content reuse is a little more technical endeavor.
<j1mc> that being said, DITA scales really well.
<j1mc> you take a bit more time to do it right, but then you can do more with it
<cody-somerville> hmmm
<cody-somerville> I just see a bunch of casserole recipes
<j1mc> haha
<j1mc> scroll down to the section: Figure 4âConditional result statement
<j1mc> and imagine using Xubuntu or Ubuntu instead of Yankee Version or Southerner Version
<j1mc> Or... imagine saying, Xfce 4.6 does it this way
<j1mc> but Xfce 4.8 does it that way
 * cody-somerville nods.
<j1mc> So the user could select what version of Xfce they have, and then they get the docs that are specific to that version
<j1mc> I would like to demo this using the standalone installation guide that the team is working on, but I haven't talked about it with the group yet
<j1mc> the installation guide would be a good test bed, I think, because installation is the same across versions
<j1mc> but you could easily spit out versions for each Ubuntu, Kubuntu, or Xubuntu
<j1mc> and you could provide one set of docs for a basic install (entire disk) but different docs for a more complex install
<j1mc> all from the same source
<cody-somerville> Interesting
<cody-somerville> Could things get "congested"?
<j1mc> Yeah, a little.  As I said, the authoring aspect is more involved
<j1mc> that why I'd like to just demo this using the installation guide
<j1mc> and maybe that's all we use it for
<j1mc> sorry I've gotten a little off-topic
<j1mc> What I'd like to do is just put together a sample document of reasonable complexity in both mallard, rST-sphinx, and DITA
<j1mc> and compare / contrast the approaches
<j1mc> there's other stuff that we've learned and talked about this weekend, though.
<j1mc> it's been really neat.
<j1mc> http://twitter.com/#search?q=%23woscon09 & http://identi.ca/search/notice?q=woscon09&search=Search
<JPohlmann> I'm still mostly concerned about how to integrate docs from different packages nicely and how to present them to the user.
<JPohlmann> After all we talked about I see that nothing is mature and ready to be used.
<JPohlmann> The documentation community seems to be very active. That's cool
<j1mc> Yeah, it's not just linux folks here, either. The Drupal doc lead and several other Drupal doc folk are here, too.
<j1mc> JPohlmann: if you want to be able to build doc structures on the fly, yelp (or a home-built app built on a yelp library) would be our only approach right now, (afaik)
<JPohlmann> BTW, I'm browsing the worst form of documentation you can imagine right now ... API docs for the jpeg library in form of a .doc file ...
<j1mc> haha  :)
<JPohlmann> And that file doesn't even use headers and stuff. It's just plain text in a .doc.
<JPohlmann> j1mc: Mallard is experimental and that yelp library doesn't exist yet, right?
<j1mc> you are correct
<j1mc> well, i think mallard is experimental
<j1mc> i've seen it build docs in yelp
<j1mc> or... mallard-based docs presented in yelp
<j1mc> i do not know how trivial or non-trivial it would be to create the 'library'
<JPohlmann> Ok
<JPohlmann> I agree that so far, mallard sounds most interesting.
<JPohlmann> I'd be interested in knowing whether yelp would be able to show different doc trees (like for Xfce *and* Xubuntu, or GNOME *and* Ubuntu *and* individual apps) at the same time.
<JPohlmann> If yelp does that and if yelp doesn't have any GNOME-specific dependencies, we don't need yelp library.
<JPohlmann> If it doesn't, it could be interesting if it's possible to write an application that does this based on the yelp library.
<j1mc> ok. I'll present this stuff to shawn.
<JPohlmann> Cool, thanks
<ubu-noob> I had some suggestions for the ubiquity slideshow.
<ubu-noob> and I joined https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-doc
<ubu-noob> and I just posted my first message
<ubu-noob> But it told me the message must first be approved
<ubu-noob> because I'm not a list member, and it's a members-only list.
<ubu-noob> Did I miss some step as I was registering for the list?
<jgoguen> ubu-noob: before you posted your message, did you receive a message with a confirmation link to click on?
<ubu-noob> jgoguen: I clicked on the confirmation - but I'm not sure if I did it before or after I sent the message to the list :-(
<jgoguen> ubu-noob: OK, well if you clicked it and confirmed that you want to subscribe, any message after that from the same email address you registered with shouldn't get held for moderation
<jgoguen> ubu-noob: the note you got explaining that your message is being held should have a link you can go to and cancel the message.  You can try re-sending your message, and if it goes through cancel the first one.
<jgoguen> ubu-noob: If you're using Gmail, you won't see your posting though.  Your clue that it went through will be that you don't receive a notice of it being held for moderation...
<ubu-noob> jgoguen: Got it.  Thanks.  I'm going to try re-sending it now
<jgoguen> ubu-noob: No problem :)
<ubu-noob> jgoguen: It posted! :-)  Now I'll cancel the first one that was sent for moderation.  It feels good when things work outl
<jgoguen> ubu-noob: Indeed it does :)
<ubu-noob> jgoguen: FYI, I am on Gmail, and I did get a "ubuntu-doc post acknowledgement" for my successful post
<jgoguen> ubu-noob: But not your actual post, just an acknowledgement that it was posted?
<jgoguen> ( Of course, I never knew the lists had posting acknowledgements either... :) )
<ubu-noob> jgoguen: Your message entitled
<ubu-noob>  Â  Â more, Ubiquity Slideshow for Ubuntu
<ubu-noob> was successfully received by the ubuntu-doc mailing list.
<ubu-noob> List info page: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-doc
<ubu-noob> Your preferences: <url to my prefs>
<ubu-noob> EOF
<ubu-noob> jgoguen: laptop is dying.  Must be off soon
<jgoguen> ubu-noob: Best plug it in :)  Glad to see things started working for you!
<ubu-noob> jgoguen: it may not be the default settings.  I looked through and checked what fit best for me.
<ubu-noob> jgoguen: Yes, A/C power is good :-)  Thanks again.  Bye for now
<jgoguen> Bye ubu-noob
<bdmurray> Shouldn't https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ContributeToUbuntu#Writing%20Documentation have a different url for bug reporting?
<bdmurray> "You can also file bug reports at https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-doc/+filebug for inaccuracies in Ubuntu's read-only documentation."
#ubuntu-doc 2009-06-16
<billybigrigger> hey all
<billybigrigger> i was looking to create a wiki page for Grub2 since the new transition is coming gently in karmic
<billybigrigger> but more users are looking for help on booting with grub2, bugabundo suggested i create a wiki page for G2, now can i just go ahead and do this? or do i have to follow some guidelines?
<Wiebelhaus> Hello
<Wiebelhaus> I'd like to find out what process one should take if they are interested in re-writing an out dated community doc?
<Lademord> Hi
<Lademord> I find it a bit problematic that if I do a Google search for 'ubuntu packaging' ( http://www.google.dk/search?hl=da&q=ubuntu%20packaging&meta=&aq=f&oq= ), the first thing that turns up is the package guide for 6.10!
<Lademord> Is it possible to fix that, possibly by workaround?
<ubu-noob> I am new to mailing lists, and I have a question
<ubu-noob> I posted to https://lists.ubuntu.com yesterday
<ubu-noob> and I want to reply to one of the messages in the tread
<ubu-noob> how do I do that?
<ubu-noob> hi?
<Lademord> This channel is always way too quiet
<ubu-noob> :-)
<ubu-noob> It's OK.  I think I'm learning how on my own.
<ubu-noob> Well, I managed to post, so I guess there's no problem at all.
<billybigrigger> anyone alive?
<billybigrigger> im having problems with formatting a wiki page
<cody-somerville> billybigrigger, whats your problem?
<cody-somerville> !justask
<ubot4> Please don't ask to ask a question, simply ask the question (all on ONE line, so others can read and follow it easily). If anyone knows the answer they will most likely reply. :-)
<billybigrigger> i thought ''="
<jmburgess> does anyone know if the ubuntu-screencasts project is still active ata ll?
#ubuntu-doc 2009-06-17
<billybigrigger> anyone awake?
<billybigrigger> i have a question, im working on a Grub 2 Wiki page, now is it safe to copy/paste some info on grub 2 themeing from the Grub 2 Doc's or is it just better to point a link?
<billybigrigger> like should i be scouring the net for information to build this page, or just make the page a bunch of links to useful information?
<Rocket2DMn> billybigrigger, you shouldn't just copy/paste - that is plagiarism and most could quite possibly violate the licensing on the original source
<Rocket2DMn> Summarizing and linking is good
<billybigrigger> k
<billybigrigger> thats all i needed to know
<Rocket2DMn> signing off now, good luck :)
<billybigrigger> ah
<billybigrigger> i needed to ask another q
<billybigrigger> how do i get multiple lines of text display like [code] [/code]
<billybigrigger> ???
<billybigrigger> || text
<billybigrigger> blah
<billybigrigger> blah || doesn't seem to work
<billybigrigger> whereas || text || will show in a cell
<billybigrigger> anyone alive?
<billybigrigger> that can tell me how to make text on a wiki page be formmated to look like [code][/code]
<billybigrigger> ?
<j1mc> billybigrigger: {{{Inline with braces}}}
<j1mc> try that?
<billybigrigger> ahhh
<billybigrigger> thanks
<mdke> jmburgess: the person to ask is Alan Pope (popey on irc)
<jmburgess> mdke: yeah I sent him an email
<MagicFab> Hi all
<MagicFab> I am wondering who I should ask to get access to upload attachments to help.ubuntu.com/community ?
<MagicFab> cody-somerville, ^ would you know ?
<cody-somerville> You can't?
<MagicFab> no
<MagicFab> I am logged in :) and no "upload" or attachments option under "Other actions"
<MagicFab> huh.. "More actions:"
<MagicFab> Weird. Appending ?action=AttachFile seems to work.
<ubu-noob> I have a question
<ubu-noob> Is anyone around to answer?
<billybigrigger> just ask
<ubu-noob> I've been chatting with Dylan McCall on https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2009-June/013257.html
<ubu-noob> about the upcoming slideshow in ubiquity
<ubu-noob> And, in reply to one of his questions
<ubu-noob> I've used Gimp to create a mockup of how I feel the slides might look
<ubu-noob> I just registered on Launchpad.net
<ubu-noob> I was wondering how I should send the .jpg image I created, along with the written description.
<ubu-noob> Should I just use imageshack and put another message on the mailing list?
<ubu-noob> or is there something better?
<ubu-noob> possibly involving Launchpad and the project page: https://launchpad.net/ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu
<ubu-noob> ??
<ubu-noob> or the wiki?
<ubu-noob> Well, I've just posted again to the mailing list, asking Dylan to help me figure out the best way for me to share my jpeg and written description of the slideshow slide mockup I've put together
<ubu-noob> We'll see what he has to say
<billybigrigger> anyone alive that can proof-read or go over my wiki entry?
<billybigrigger> its my first and don't know if it's up to the doc teams specs, or ubuntu's specs even
<nhandler> billybigrigger: If you give us a link to it, I am sure someone will read through it
<billybigrigger> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Grub2
<dsas> documentation goes on the documentation http://wiki at help.ubuntu.com/community (assuming the page is documentation, haven't read yet)
<dsas> "Recover Grub 2 via LiveCD" - you should probably explain some circumstances that make this necessary
<dsas> If the theme files run in order is it better to add your theme in 06_my_theme rather than editing 05_debian theme?
<dsas> billybigrigger: ^^^
#ubuntu-doc 2009-06-18
<dsas> billybigrigger: The introduction doesn't really tell me what grub does, could you relate it differently
<dsas> "grub is the first bit of software that runs, it allows you to choose which operating system to use and then start it"
<dsas> billybigrigger: You may want to link to your page from https://help.ubuntu.com/community/GrubHowto
<IamDaveMyers> hello all...
<ubu-noob> For all those who are interested, please check out my mockup of what the new Ubuquity slideshow might look like at: http://ubuntuwtf.wordpress.com/2009/06/18/my-mockup-suggestion-for-ubiquity-slideshow/  I apologize that it's on a separate blog.  I tried using Launchpad, but it was just too confusing for a noob like me.  Please check out the mockup.  I am eager to hear any constructive feedback you might have.   I've also posted a m
#ubuntu-doc 2009-06-19
<nixternal> yay, so finally mallard is no longer vaporware
<nixternal> lets celebrate further segmentation in the open source community!!!!
<nixternal> yet another documenting language, how cool
 * nixternal pokes shaunm! ya, I am poking fun at you :p  how is that weather in down there? it is horrible up here in chicago
<shaunm> nixternal: nasty muggy weather
<nixternal> I would take muggy any day of the week, right now we have insane storms doing a bit of damage in the area
<nixternal> hey, is there a spec that I can look at to get mallard support in khelpcenter?
<shaunm> http://www.gnome.org/~shaunm/mallard/
<nixternal> groovy, thanks
<shaunm> draft specification, still needs more content
<nixternal> I can probably take a took through the yelp code as well
<nixternal> right now I am listening for tornado sirens :/
<shaunm> hi Gwaihir
<Gwaihir> hi shaunm
<shaunm> nixternal: so do you work on the hacking end of things with khelpcenter?
<shaunm> does cornelius still work on it?
<nixternal> shaunm: yes, cornelius does as well...I am the doc project leader for kde
<nixternal> though I haven't been doing a good job for the past year :/
<shaunm> yeah, well, neither have I
<shaunm> it's a hard job
<nixternal> it is very hard to get contributors
<shaunm> no doubt
#ubuntu-doc 2009-06-20
<DougieRichardson> I'm having a brain fart - how do I add ubuntu-website and yelp(ubuntu) on to bug #388750
<ubot4> Launchpad bug 388750 in ubuntu-docs ""Repeat the search online" does not work" [Low,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/388750
<nhandler> DougieRichardson: Isn't it "Also Affects Project"?
<nhandler> Oh wait, distribution
<DougieRichardson> nhandler: no that's it cheers
<nhandler> I made the change DougieRichardson
<nhandler> DougieRichardson: Did you want the yelp project or the yelp source package in Ubuntu? You added the project
<DougieRichardson> both really as the patch is needed in the yelp package but their input is needed into the URL choice
#ubuntu-doc 2010-06-22
<hoxtonhopper> Hello ladies and gents. I'm looking at the BootOptions page on help.ubuntu.com, and would like to tag it to show both readers and editors that it needs updating with the latest info on Lucid. However, I can't see any of the approved tags which would be appropriate for this. Possibly 'Needs Expansion'? Is there perhaps room for a 'Needs Updating' tag?
<zkriesse> hoxtonhopper: send me the page
<hoxtonhopper> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/BootOptions
<zkriesse> Well what is different about it?
<zkriesse> It would "Need Expansion" yes
<hoxtonhopper> thanks
<zkriesse> Best to send in a mailing list question RE: this
<hoxtonhopper> I understand, for example, that the vga= option is now deprecated
<zkriesse> Or you let the Ubuntu Beginners Team Wiki Focus Group handle it
<hoxtonhopper> ok thanks. v new to this area of participation so will need to get my bearings :)
<zkriesse> yep
<zkriesse> want some links?
<zkriesse> Or you can come join us in #ubuntu-beginners #ubuntu-beginners-team and #ubuntu-beginners-wiki
<zkriesse> if you like wiki stuff definitely join #ubuntu-beginners-wiki hoxtonhopper
<hoxtonhopper> thanks I'll do that
<zkriesse> :D
#ubuntu-doc 2010-06-23
<ubuntujenkins> you can follow the quickshot development on facebook or twitter we are www.facebook.com/quickshotteam and www.twitter.com/quickshotteam
#ubuntu-doc 2010-06-24
<alket> How to get involved ?
<DarkwingDuck> Hey alket how are you this evening?
<alket> DarkwingDuck: sleepy, its midnight, thank you, how about you
<DarkwingDuck> About the same. :) Where were you looking to get involved with?
<alket> Documentation
<DarkwingDuck> System or Wiki?
<alket> Which one is prefered for begginers ?
<DarkwingDuck> What distro do you use/want to assist in the documentation?
<DarkwingDuck> It could go either way. :)
<alket> Ubuntu of course
<alket> is this Ubuntu Doc channel ?
<DarkwingDuck> Kubuntu? Xubuntu?
<DarkwingDuck> Lubuntu? Or, the GNOME side of Ubuntu?
<alket> ahh I see
<alket> Ubuntu
<DarkwingDuck> Okay. :) If you want to help with the System docs here is a good place to start. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation
<jjesse> also an introduction email to ubuntu-doc mailing list
<DarkwingDuck> Was getting to that jjesse thanks. :)
<DarkwingDuck> Oh, BTW, jjesse... I'm moving to Northern Indiana.
<jjesse> haha no problem
<DarkwingDuck> Fort Wayne.
<jjesse> oh cool
<jjesse> that's not that far away from me
<DarkwingDuck> About an hour south of MI on I-69
<jjesse> yup
<DarkwingDuck> I know. I grew up in LaGrange County
<alket> What is this : Would you like to receive list mail batched in a daily 	  digest? 	
<jjesse> in a mail list there are two options
<jjesse> receive every email that is sent to the list
<alket> Can i change it latter ?
<jjesse> or receive a batch of every email sent tat day
<jjesse> yeah
<alket> Im in mailing list
<DarkwingDuck> alket: Send a introduction email.
<DarkwingDuck> alket: Do you know XML and DocBook?
<alket> Im intrested to know how this works
<alket> does somebody tells me what to do, or i must pick
<alket> no
<alket> I know what XML is , and I can edit it
<DarkwingDuck> There is a whole section on where to get started here. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation
<DarkwingDuck> Now, I have been in your place. Just find something you want to learn and help with and read all you can on how to do it.
<alket> im am familiar with PHP
<alket> but I have no idea waht DocBook is
<DarkwingDuck> Intro to DocBook
<DarkwingDuck> http://www.docbook.org/
<alket> What to write in Subject ?
<DarkwingDuck> Introduction or, anything... if I recall I wrote Greetings. :)
<jjesse> the easiest way is to start reporting bugs on launchpad
<jjesse> so read the help that is included on ubuntu 10.04 and start reporting bugs
<jjesse> typos, grammer problems, incrorrect things
<alket> ok jjesse thank you
<alket> DarkwingDuck: thank you
<jjesse> np
<j1mc> alket: you don't really need to know docbook right away
<j1mc> you can learn it over time
<alket> you guys are great
<jjesse> we try
<alket> its a long time that I wanted to get involved into MOTU team
<alket> they never respond
<jjesse> but srsly j1mc is right
<jjesse> start reading the documenation and report bugs thats the best way
<jjesse> and how i got started
<j1mc> alket: do you have an account on launchpad?
<alket> yes
<alket> alketii
<alket> jjesse: I will start from tomorrow
<j1mc> do you know how to get the documentation source files?
<alket> thats my summer job :p
<alket> j1mc: sorry, No i dont
<j1mc> alket: sometimes people have filed and fixed bugs in docs that appear on help.ubuntu.com, so it's better to look at the most recent sources for bugs.
<j1mc> for example... you can read help.ubuntu.com, notice something that you think needs to be corrected...
<j1mc> but before filing a bug, you check to see if it has been fixed in the current draft of the docs.
<j1mc> alket: here's some info on getting the sources: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/Repository
<alket> thank you
<j1mc> you're welcome!
<alket> I can't get GPG of bazzar
<alket> http://keyserver.ubuntu.com:11371/pks/lookup?search=0xECE2800BACF028B31EE3657CD702BF6B8C6C1EFD&op=index
<j1mc> what are you trying to do?  what command did you issue?
<j1mc> i think i've heard some stuff about the ubuntu keyserver being a bit slow lately.  ??
<j1mc> not sure though
<alket> the previous link that you posted
<alket> Installing Bazaar
<j1mc> alket: just type: sudo apt-get install bzr
<j1mc> that should do it - you don't need to use the PPA
<jjesse> and then bzr branch lp:ubuntu-docs
<alket> ah
<j1mc> jjesse: the instructions tell him to do "bzr whoami..."
<jjesse> oh yeah
<jjesse> bzr whoami first
<j1mc> and launchpad-login [username] first
<jjesse> all of that will connect bzr to your lp username
<alket> there is no launchpad-login
<alket> just launchpad-integration
<j1mc> alket: type in the command " bzr launchpad-login alketii "
<j1mc> without the quotes
<j1mc> i don't think it gives you any kind of message after you type that
<j1mc> but it tells bzr, "hey, when I try to do something with bzr, use alketti as my launchpad username!"  :)
<alket> now i must register SSH
<j1mc> yup
<alket> I cant create my publick key
<alket> Invalid public key
<jjesse> you did the ssh-keygen?
<alket> I did this https://help.launchpad.net/YourAccount/CreatingAnSSHKeyPair
<jjesse> hrmm
<jjesse> when you do ssh-keygen -t rsa what happens?
<alket> Generating public/private rsa key pair.
<alket> Enter file in which to save the key (/home/alket/.ssh/id_rsa):
<alket> /home/alket/.ssh/id_rsa already exists.
<alket> Overwrite (y/n)? y
<alket> Enter passphrase (empty for no passphrase):
<alket> Enter same passphrase again:
<alket> Your identification has been saved in /home/alket/.ssh/id_rsa.
<alket> Your public key has been saved in /home/alket/.ssh/id_rsa.pub.
<jjesse> and you've gthen uploaded your key to launchpad?
<alket> fingerprint ?
<alket> or Random Image ?
<zkriesse> alket: you want the fingerprint
<jjesse> from your launchpad page under the key section you upload it
<alket> no
<alket> i want my SSH
<jjesse> when you click on the yellow icon for SSH keys, you should go to a page to upload the key
<alket> yes
<alket> but the command
<alket> ssh-keygenÂ -tÂ rsa
<jjesse> open up the key in gedit
<alket> just outputs the fingerprint and random image
<jjesse> yup
<alket> which one of them ?
<jjesse> gedit /home/alket/.ssh/id_rsa.pub and copy the whole thing into the laucnhpad section under add a key
<jjesse> and select import
<alket> or i must do this Invalid Publick key :S
<alket> sorry
<alket> Invalid public key again
<alket> I dont know why
<alket> ok see you tomorrow
<zkriesse> mdke: ping
<mdke> zkriesse: (In case I'm not around at the moment, please provide a bit of information about what you want and I will respond when I get back)
#ubuntu-doc 2010-06-25
<alket> hi
<alket> how to file a document bug ?
<zkriesse> welcome tekang
<zkriesse> can anybody here help me with installing TeX Live?
<zkriesse> cjohnston: ping
<trinikrono> did no one look at wiki.ubuntu.com/Teams yet? it still is very much missing
<nUboon2Age> Newbie Question:  how do you attach files?  I see info on https://help.ubuntu.com/community/HelpOnActions/AttachFile , but on the page I want to add a picture to, the option doesn't seem to be available.  How does this work?
<zkriesse> nUboon2Age: a wiki page?
<nUboon2Age> zkriesse: yes, sorry.
<zkriesse> ok one sec
<zkriesse> I'm trying to compile something just a minute
<nUboon2Age> zkriesse: no prob...
<zkriesse> nUboon2Age: what's the page my friend
<nUboon2Age> zkriesse: (looking up)
<nUboon2Age> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/PalmDeviceSetup
<zkriesse> ok one sec
<zkriesse> ok so you're trying to put an image on the page?
<nUboon2Age> sorry, i'm back
<zkriesse> ^^
<nUboon2Age> zkriesse: yes, i wanted to add a screenshot of gnome-pilot device settings.  I got the screenshot already, just need to figure out how to attach it.
<nUboon2Age> zkriesse: i found the syntax for how MoinMoin addresses it.
<zkriesse> ok try it
<zkriesse> feed me the syntax too as I don't know about it
<nUboon2Age> zkriesse: trying...
<nUboon2Age> {{attachment:gnome-pilotDeviceSettings.png}}
<zkriesse> ok
<zkriesse> did it work?'
<nUboon2Age> zkriesse: yup!  Thanks.  Did I just miss that 'attachment' option under the editing options before, or is that something you had to turn on?
<nUboon2Age> zkriesse: I tried to upload an updated version of the pic and selected 'overwrite' but it keeps showing the previous version.  Do you have any experience with that?
<nUboon2Age> zkriesse: I found the attachment info gives sort of confusing/contradictory info because on the one hand it says: "Overwrite existing attachment of same name"
<nUboon2Age> zkriesse: but it also says: "An upload will never overwrite an existing file. If there is a name conflict, you have to rename the file that you want to upload. Otherwise, if "Rename to" is left blank, the original filename will be used."
<nUboon2Age> zkriesse: the actual behavior seems closer to the "never overwrite an existing file" info.
<nUboon2Age> brb
<nUboon2Age> zkriesse: also i don't see how to delete my attachments, so in this case if i want to change one for another it seems the server will always retain the one I don't want.
<nUboon2Age> brb
<nUboon2Age> zkriesse: Any info on that?
#ubuntu-doc 2010-06-26
<j1mc_> hey all
<j1mc> i have drafted up a survey that i was going to put out to get feedback from ubuntu packagers about the ubuntu packaging guide.
<j1mc> would anyone have time to take a look at it and offer feedback before i release it to the wile?
<j1mc> s/wile/wild?
<philbull> ping zkriesse
#ubuntu-doc 2010-06-27
<vish> can anyone suggest a politically correct term for replacing "Hardware Drivers"?  Bug #409338
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 409338 in jockey (Ubuntu) (and 1 other project) "Change the name of "Hardware drivers" (affects: 2) (heat: 26)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/409338
<philbull> ping zkriesse
<zkriesse> philbull: pm my good man
#ubuntu-doc 2011-06-20
<RevSpecies116> Hi all, was the Ubuntu Wiki updated recently
<RevSpecies116> ?
<RevSpecies116> By updated, I mean its framework
#ubuntu-doc 2012-06-22
<cortman> Can anyone here answer a question about the community wiki?
<head_victim> cortman: ask away and we'll try
<cortman> I'm curious why a number of moinmoin features don't work in the community wiki
<cortman> Italics, text coloring, any kind of lists besides numbered, are a few we've come across
<cortman> Even if we write the correct syntax it still doesn't take effect.
<head_victim> Actually, I'll find the bug report because I recall writing one about it myself
<cortman> OK, great- what's the status on resolving it?
<head_victim> bug 701026 is the one I wrote
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 701026 in ubuntu-website "Text formatting missing in wiki light theme" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/701026
<head_victim> Doesn't appear to have moved much.
<head_victim> bug 674936 was similar but has had a fix released.
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 674936 in canonical-isd-web "Italics not possible on wiki" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/674936
<head_victim> Unfortunately, I'm far from being remotely able to assist with the fixing part. Reporting is easy.
<cortman> Hm.
<cortman> If they say a fix is released why does it still not work?
<head_victim> A new version may have been released with a regression perhaps, not entirely sure to be honest.
<cortman> Is this supposed to fix some of it?
<cortman> https://code.launchpad.net/~alanbell/ubuntu-website/light-moin-fixes
<head_victim> Sorry mate, way above my head.
<head_victim> I can use wikis, I have no idea how they work :/
<cortman> Sure. :)
<cortman> I was hoping there'd be some folks from the official Canonical doc team here, but if there are, they've all taken a vow of silence...
<head_victim> Feel free to idle to see if any pop their heads up, might be late at night in their part of the world.
<cortman> Ok, thanks.
#ubuntu-doc 2012-06-23
<PriceChild> !ops
<ubot2> Help! Channel emergency! (ONLY use this trigger in emergencies) - elky, Madpilot, tritium, Nalioth, tonyyarusso, PriceChild, Amaranth, jrib, Myrtti, mneptok, Pici, jpds, gnomefreak, bazhang, jussi, Flannel, ikonia, maco, h00k, IdleOne, nhandler or Jordan_U!
<PriceChild> !staff
<ubot2> hey Christel, Dave2, Gary, KB1JWQ, Levia, Martinp23, SportsChick, VorTechS, jayne, jenda, marienz, nalioth, niko, nhandler, rob, dax, stew, or tomaw, I could use a bit of your time :)
#ubuntu-doc 2012-06-24
<phillw> Hi, any fellow editors about? I have a problem!
#ubuntu-doc 2014-06-17
<belkinsa> shaunm, who is in charge of the videos from OHC?  Or do you know if they will posted online?
#ubuntu-doc 2014-06-19
<belkinsa> knome, do you the link to the how to sign up via LP/Ubuntu SSO wiki page?
#ubuntu-doc 2014-06-20
<belkinsa> All, is anyone free to help me with my items from this blueprint, https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/community-1406-ubuntu-documentation-team?
<Aleo> Hello, anybody here I can ask a question to?
<belkinsa> Sure, what is it?
<Aleo> belkinsa,
<belkinsa> You don't really need to ask to ask a question, just ask away.  Someone will pick it up and answer it.  This goes true to for everyone.
<belkinsa> and every channel
<Aleo> haha, I was asking about the 2 language wiki.   I was told in #ubuntu-translator to ask also in #ubuntu-doc about the subject
<belkinsa> Ah, I know how to do it.
<Aleo> and also 2 or 3 language mailing list.
<Aleo> if anyone has experience
<belkinsa> you add /es before the other part of the page name in the address bar
<belkinsa> but for mailing list, I don't know.
<belkinsa> Aleo, http://wiki.ubuntu-women.org/Translators and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Translation
<shaunm> ok ubuntu friends
<shaunm> yelp in git master is all gnome3ified
<shaunm> so is there anybody I could talk to that could give me a design for what you'd like it to look like instead when running under unity?
<belkinsa> shaunm, how was the OHC?
<shaunm> belkinsa: wonderful
<belkinsa> Any notes for the doc team?
<shaunm> belkinsa: hard to give you notes when I don't know what tidbits would interest you
<shaunm> you can look through the #openhelp tag on twitter to see what others thought was interesting
<belkinsa> I will, thanks.
<shaunm> though that doesn't usually capture the gems that come up during open discussion
<belkinsa> balloons, thanks for the feedback (https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2014-March/018749.html), I will get the pages cleaned up by your suggestions.
<balloons> belkinsa, heh, yes doc team goodies
<belkinsa> I think I know how to deal with reamping the docs.
<pleia2> belkinsa: fwow, unless there is a specific reason not to have our meeting in #ubuntu-meeting or #ubuntu-meeting-2, I'd really prefer to have meetings there so folks in the community who lurk there can participate and know what we're up to
<pleia2> fwiw
<belkinsa> Oh, good point.
<pleia2> we just opened -2 to avoid conflicts
<belkinsa> I forgot, I will change it.
<belkinsa> Fixed
<pleia2> much appreciated :)
<pleia2> we worked hard to get folks to use -meeting rather than their own channels
<belkinsa> It can it be meeting-2
<pleia2> \o/
<belkinsa> Thanks.
<belkinsa> Er, I meant can it be?
<pleia2> sure
<belkinsa> Thanks.
<pleia2> can add it to fridge with instructions here: Ubuntu 13.10 (Saucy Salamander) reaches End of Life on July 17 2014
<pleia2> err
<pleia2> bad paste buffer :)
<pleia2> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Fridge/Calendar
<belkinsa> And I will add the meeting to the fridge calender
<pleia2> thanks
#ubuntu-doc 2015-06-16
<gustavwiz> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/OperaBrowser, This page covers documentation for the "old Opera" (version <=12), so almost the entire page is outdated. As there still are people that use Opera 12, I suggest we create a second wiki page called "Opera 12", where we move the entire page to, and start with a new documentation for the new versions of Opera on the current page. How about that?
<pmatulis> gustavwiz: go for it
<gustavwiz> okey
#ubuntu-doc 2015-06-17
<naveen__> Heyya
#ubuntu-doc 2016-06-21
<shoyu> hello
<shoyu> i was trying to create my member page but i get 'You are not allowed to copy this page!'
<shoyu> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MembershipTemplate
<shoyu> the action was actually trying to copy this one to a 'shoyu'
<shoyu> i'm also logged in and have signed to conduct at launchpad
<pmatulis> shoyu, welcome to the doc team. stick around and someone should be able to answer. otherwise send mail to mailing list (see topic)
<torrino> Hello
<torrino> I'd like to know how to remove an old page from the wiki
<pleia2> you want to tag it for deletion, let me grab the docs for that
<pleia2> torrino: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Tag#Candidate_for_deletion
<pleia2> so at the top of the help.ubuntu.com/community/ page, put <<Include(Tag/Deletion)>>
<pleia2> what page are you looking to remove?
<torrino> it's a wiki.ubuntu.com page
<torrino> and I don't have privilege to edit it, the 'delete page' action is greyed
<pleia2> oh, that's not really in the scope of the docs team
<pleia2> what page is it?
<pleia2> (I can delete things, so I can evalute)
<torrino> can i send it via private message?
<pleia2> if you must
<pleia2> torrino: these look like pages for a user
<pleia2> I'd rather not delete them without confirmation from the person who created them
<pleia2> if the owner can email me from their email address in launchpad, I'll take care of it though
