#ubuntu-arb 2012-08-27
<dholbach> good morning
<coolbhavi> dholbach, gm!
<ajmitch> hi
<dholbach> hey coolbhavi, namaste :)
<dholbach> hey ajmitch
<dholbach> how are you all doing?
<ajmitch> good, how are you?
<ajmitch> coolbhavi: https://rt.ubuntu.com/Ticket/Display.html?id=20315 is still open, sorry :)
<dholbach> good, thanks :)
 * ajmitch is rather tired for some reason this evening
<coolbhavi> ajmitch, no problem how are you btw?
<coolbhavi> dholbach, how is it going?
 * ajmitch is busy enough, waiting for new computer to arrive later this week 
<dholbach> ajmitch, nice
<dholbach> coolbhavi, very good - how about you?
<ajmitch> dholbach: it'd be nice if it wasn't because my existing desktop died
<coolbhavi> dholbach, down with a bad cold weather has gone bad here but managing..
 * ajmitch doubts he'll get back to ARB voting this week, too many pycon things on
<ajmitch> and once all the apps that need votes have them, there's still a lot og app showdown submissions that could probably be put forward for voting if their authors have made changes
<coolbhavi> ajmitch, sadly yes
<ajmitch> so many apps, so little time
<coolbhavi> and arb is now effectively 4 on 7 with jocarter resigning
<dholbach> when are you going to start the call for nominations?
<coolbhavi> ajmitch, any idea?
 * coolbhavi goes to lunch btw
<ajmitch> dholbach: well, I only just realised the term expiry the other day, but any new person would be coming into an uncertain future
 * ajmitch hasn't heard if all the team members currently active wish to renominate themselves
<dholbach> it might be worth finding this out :)
<dholbach> AFAIK stgraber wanted to step down, jocarter as well and from Luke and Shane I haven't seen much in quite a long while
<dholbach> that'd leave Allison, Andrew and Bhavani IIRC
<ajmitch> right, and you know that the time we can put into it is rather variable, at best :)
<dholbach> if the four members I mentioned first found successors that'd certainly help :)
<ajmitch> yeah, though finding 4 people in ~ubuntu-dev who can commit the required time will be challenging
<ajmitch> still worth trying
 * coolbhavi is back
<coolbhavi> hmm also the new process if not discussed before restaffing, would mean any new member coming in will take some time to get hold of processes and also there will be a transition time I think
<coolbhavi> dpm, good noon!
<dpm> hey coolbhavi, how are you doing? :)
<coolbhavi> dpm, health on the downside a bit right now but manageable :) how are you btw?
<dpm> coolbhavi, I'm good, thanks. Sorry to hear about your health, I hope it gets better :/
<coolbhavi> dpm, :) thanks!
<mhall119> coolbhavi: "flawless packaging" :)
<mhall119> very kind of you
<mhall119> doubtful, but still very kind
<dpm> :)
<coolbhavi> mhall119, it passed at a single attempt through my routine check so :)
<coolbhavi> I thought it was flawless
<coolbhavi> :)
<coolbhavi> hi wendar good morning
<coolbhavi> :)
 * coolbhavi finishes his round of app reviews for the day and goes to sleep
<coolbhavi> good night all!
<wendar> ajmitch: oh, btw, I'm not an Ubuntu Developer, so won't be standing for re-election on the ARB
<wendar> ajmitch: the TB granted a pass for existing members to stay when they were elected before we changed the rules, but it doesn't seem appropriate to ask for another extension
<wendar> (I'll still be a contributor)
 * wendar sorry I missed coolbhavi this morning
<wendar> we need one of those bots for sending time-delayed messages
<stgraber> wendar: you sure you don't want to apply for some kind of upload rights before that? :)
<stgraber> surely there's something you would want PPU for
<ajmitch> so the team's even smaller, ok :)
<ajmitch> stgraber: there's supposed to be an ARB meeting this weekend but I'll be busy, at this rate I don't know who will be there
<wendar> stgraber: well, the plan is to switch some of the time I've been putting into ARB over to a MOTU focus and then apply there
<wendar> stgraber: I suppose I could do PPU, but the only package I really have a dedicated interest in is parrot, and I'm already DM for it (and have it syncing)
<wendar> ajmitch: if you need to prioritize, focus on fitting the CC meeting into your schedule
<wendar> ajmitch: I'd like to get as many as possible of us there
<ajmitch> wendar: I looked at the time for that, it's 5AM for me
<ajmitch> rather unlikely I'll be there
<wendar> ajmitch: ooh, yuk
<ajmitch> yup
<wendar> ajmitch: yeah. Well, if you have any thoughts, write them up ahead of time, and I'll make sure they're represented in the meeting.
<ajmitch> ok
#ubuntu-arb 2012-08-28
<ajmitch> coolbhavi: I knew you couldn't make it at 21:00 UTC, that's why I suggested changing the time
<ajmitch> especially as you've been the most active lately :)
<coolbhavi> ajmitch, ah thanks for that :)
 * ajmitch will be busy friday night (NZ time) & all weekend, so not really much chance of attending 
<coolbhavi> hmm ajmitch btw glad that you got a new system :)
<ajmitch> coolbhavi: I haven't yet
<coolbhavi> ajmitch, ah I saw some chat going on on the same yesterday so I thought so
<ajmitch> coolbhavi: I wish, I got RAM & hard drive today from courier, waiting for other pieces :)
 * ajmitch is currently in yet another pycon meeting
<coolbhavi> oh :)
<dholbach> good morning
<ajmitch> hi dholbach
<dholbach> hey ajmitch
<gotwig> hey..
<gotwig> can someone please help me to release in the end my app in the USC? https://myapps.developer.ubuntu.com/dev/apps/749/
<PaoloRotolo> Hi all!
<dpm> hi PaoloRotolo, how are you doing?
<PaoloRotolo> dpm: fine, thanks! And you?
<dpm> good too, about to call it a day :)
<PaoloRotolo> dpm: well, I'm following the Ubuntu Developer Week :)
<dpm> nice :)
<PaoloRotolo> I'm so curious for this talk: "Ubuntu Development for Young" by bilal :)
<bilal> thanks!
<PaoloRotolo> bilal: thanks you!
<bilal> you're welcome, and do attend it if you can :)
<PaoloRotolo> yes of course :)
<g0twig> hey there
<mhall119> hey g0twig
<g0twig> would be nice if someone could check that: https://myapps.developer.ubuntu.com/dev/apps/749/
<g0twig> I should update the screenshot, tough..
<ian__325> Anyone around to answer a question?
<ian__325> I have an app submitted on myapps for >1month and its status has not changed.  It hasn't even appeared on the trello board. Is there a chance of it being reviewed before 12.10? and what happens once 12.10 comes out?
<mhall119> ian__325: if you submitted it for 12.04, that's what it will go into
<mhall119> 12.04 is an LTS, so people will be using that version for a while, even after 12.10 comes out
<ian__325> What's the timeline for things right now.  Are the Showdown apps all worked through?
<mhall119> you'll need to re-submit it for 12.10
<ian__325> When will I be able to submit for 12.10?
<mhall119> ian__325: only about 20 of the app showdown apps have made it all the way through to the software center, the rest are still being reviewed
<mhall119> I don't know exactly when the archive for 12.10 will be open, it's supposed to be around this time though (at or after FeatureFreeze
<mhall119> )
<ian__325> ouch... so it'll be a while.  How would reviewing be different if I wanted to charge $1.00 in the app store?
<mhall119> ian__325: if you charge for it, it'll be sent to a different group that works for Canonical (the ARB are volunteers)
<ian__325> That's good, just curious though, what if I wanted to offer a free version and a paid version?
<mhall119> you can, if it's open source the free version will go through the ARB, and the paid will go through CA
<ian__325> But it wouldn't be synchronized... Has there ever been discussion of offering a donation button in software center?
<mhall119> ian__325: there's been talk about it, yes, I don't know if it's gotten any further than talk though
<ian__325> ok... thanks.  At some point in the future, I'd be willing to help with reviews. Are you looking for more volunteers and who should I contact when I have some free time?
<mhall119> ian__325: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AppReviewBoard/Review/Showdown has instructions for helping us with the review
<mhall119> any member of the ARB can help you get the hang of it too
<mhall119> it's me end of day, but if you ping me tomorrow I can help you too
<ian__325> ok... have a good night.  I'll take a look at this and when I have a chance see about starting something
#ubuntu-arb 2012-08-29
<coolbhavi> dpm, \hey
<coolbhavi> good morning :)
<dpm> hey coolbhavi, good morning :)
<coolbhavi> dpm, I'm just about to finish feedback on the draft
<dpm> coolbhavi, oh, that's really awesome, thanks!
<dpm> coolbhavi, if you've got any questions apart from the feedback, or if anything is unclear in the spec, please let me know and I'll be happy to answer
<coolbhavi> dpm, I wrote it in the feedback only sorry for that
<coolbhavi> I do have
<dpm> coolbhavi, no need to be sorry for anything, I can answer the questions in any way you like :)
<coolbhavi> dpm, most part looks fine thanks for the wonderful work you are doing.. but can we have a rejection mechanism if an app submitted does not comply ton the standards instead of a damage control mechanism like for instance revoking access?
<ajmitch> hi
<dpm> coolbhavi, actually, dholbach was mentioning something along these lines the other day: uploading an empty app to replace a "bad" app. Do you think that'd be enough, or do you have any ideas for an app rejection mechanism?
<dpm> hey ajmitch :)
<coolbhavi> ajmitch, hey :)
<coolbhavi> dpm, yes I think we can integrate some code in Myapps like if the apps doesnt pass through "x" check which is mandatory it doesnt allow you to upload with an error message
<coolbhavi> much like what LP works in the case of a package upload
<coolbhavi> if any universe contributor tried to upload into universe or main repo it doesnt accept and no access mail comes
<dpm> coolbhavi, ah, gotcha now. Actually, that's already the idea: if the app doesn't pass the automated checks (we're thinking of using Lintian with a new profile we define), you won't be able to upload. Have a look at the design mockups here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AppDevUploadProcess#App_Review - that makes me think we should probably add a paragraph on the spec to make it clearer, though
<ajmitch> dpm: uploading an empty app is due to how apt works, when you really need to replace something broken
<ajmitch> if I get this computer working I'll try & add some feedback tonight :)
<dpm> ajmitch, that'd be great, thanks! :)
<dpm> ajmitch, re: app uploads, yeah, I think we were talking about two different things, though. Now I understand Bhavani meant stopping an app to get into the process rather than removing an existing app
<ajmitch> right
<coolbhavi> replacing with an empty app is also a good idea but on the flip side extras.ubuntu.com syncs on from PPA every 1 hour and you need to explicitly stop syncing for that particular app I guess
<ajmitch> aiui, an app will have to pass all automated checks prior to being published, and sometimes some manual checks
<coolbhavi> dpm, ah got it in mockups thanks :)
<coolbhavi> ajmitch, +1
<ajmitch> hopefully as few manual checks as possible
<coolbhavi> agreed
<ajmitch> my main doubts are with the sandboxing & construction of apparmor profiles
<ajmitch> perhaps I'd have to try & write some deliberately malicious apps to exercise some corner cases :)
<dpm> ajmitch, we're intentionally reducing and removing manual checking in the measure possible, as human review is the main bottleneck in such processes. I think we should identify any manual checks still required and think of ways they can be automated
<ajmitch> dpm: right
<coolbhavi> ajmitch, :) so that permissions are stricter with app armor profiles
<ajmitch> permissions are more fine-grained
<ajmitch> and you can have permissions on more than just files, as the spec shows
<coolbhavi> yep got it :)
<ajmitch> problem is that many app authors won't have written apps with this in mind, I saw a section added to the spec today about having to deal with permission denials
<ajmitch> dpm: I don't have the spec open, is there a way for users to revoke access to certain things without just uninstalling an app?
<coolbhavi> dpm, ajmitch I thought the ARB revokes the access
<ajmitch> coolbhavi: it's getting a bit out of scope, but I mean things like a user not wanting to allow an app access to ~/Pictures
<ajmitch> it's more in the scope of a apparmor profile control UI
<dpm> coolbhavi, he's referring to the user revoking security permissions for an app they've got installed
<coolbhavi> ah ok sorry for that
<ajmitch> what dpm said :)
<dpm> ajmitch, currently we're not catering for that. The security policy controls are thought to affect all apps, and not be modifiable on a single app basis. The only thing that applies to single apps is the ability to define exceptions to the policy and install an app even if it falls outside your defined policy
<ajmitch> dpm: I think it could be something to keep in mind for future work
<ajmitch> maybe in a couple of cycles for someone interested
<dpm> ajmitch, definitely. I think it is not an essential feature to implement the first cut of the spec, but I agree that it might be something to be implemented by someone interested along the road. Remember to mention it in the feedback
<ajmitch> will do, just about finished putting hard drives in new computer :)
<dpm> coolbhavi, I modified the markup on your feedback to make the quoted sections more clear, I hope you don't mind. I'll go and answer your questions now
<dpm> ajmitch, I hope everything works! :)
<ajmitch> so do I!
<dpm> :)
<coolbhavi> dpm, by which I understand that we will have apps cpmply against a standard security policy control and apart from that you can add exceptions to a single app while installing
<coolbhavi> dpm, ok no issues
<dpm> coolbhavi, exactly
<coolbhavi> dpm, thanks!
<ajmitch> exceptions are not done by the user while installing, but chosen by the app author, anything custom gets a manual review
<ajmitch> so you can choose that you need to have access to all of d-bus when uploading your app, but it'd get some scrutiny
<dpm> ajmitch, that was a couple of revisions ago, we changed that in the spec,
<ajmitch> dpm: I need to keep up then
<dpm> ajmitch, in line with reducing manual review, we've disabled the ability to specify any custom permissions
<ajmitch> ok
<dpm> so app authors have to go with the permissions (to be exact AppArmor abstractions) we're presenting them
<ajmitch> I'll give feedback on not liking presenting more options to the user in the software centre :)
<dpm> anything outside that is a NACK, and the app cannot be uploaded
<ajmitch> I know it's like what android does
<dpm> in a way, but Android does not have the exception mechanism we're introducing
<coolbhavi> ajmitch, :)
<ajmitch> right, I also know that people often click whatever's in front of them
<ajmitch> I'll re-read the spec before giving feedback later
<coolbhavi> dholbach, hey good morning!
<dholbach> good morning
<dholbach> namaste coolbhavi
<coolbhavi> namaste dholbach :) think you missed a interesting conversation here :)
<coolbhavi> dpm, ^^^ :)
<ajmitch> hi dholbach
<dholbach> hi ajmitch :)
<dholbach> which conversation was that?
<coolbhavi> dholbach, regarding the app dev spec
<dholbach> aha
<dpm> sure, thanks ajmitch!
 * coolbhavi goes to lunch 
<dpm> coolbhavi, I've finished replying to your feedback, let me know if that all makes sense to you
<dpm> morning dholbach!
 * ajmitch refreshes again
<coolbhavi> dpm, sure :)  me too if permitted will re read the spec again after my UDW session today and provide additional feedback/ask doubts
<dpm> coolbhavi, excellent, thanks, that's very helpful
<dpm> coolbhavi, let me add a mention to how review and rejection works to the spec, as per your input earlier on
<coolbhavi> dpm, thanks a lot! cya around
<PaoloRotolo> Hi all!
<dpm> hey PaoloRotolo :)
<ajmitch> hi PaoloRotolo
<PaoloRotolo> Hey dpm, ajmitch :)
<gotwig> please checkout my "application" https://myapps.developer.ubuntu.com/dev/apps/749/
<coolbhavi> gotwig, Thanks for your submission to the ARB. We will be checking it out and we will get in touch with you soon with our reviews
<gotwig> coolbhavi: really nice, I waited 4 months ^^
<gotwig> coolbhavi: I have now ported it to python 3
<coolbhavi> gotwig, sorry to hear that you have waited for 4 months
<gotwig> coolbhavi: the app is not that "well" maintained :-) I have to study much
<coolbhavi> gotwig, thats nice hearing that you have ported to py3 we will have a look and get back to you shortly
 * gotwig is back
<gotwig> I am sorry, some class mates played with the pc ;)
<mhall119> coolbhavi: ajmitch: just finished reading the whole conversation
<mhall119> to be clear, the *only* manual review in the spec will be identifying the developer
<mhall119> this will allow us to prevent anonymous uploading, so the chances of someone uploading malicious code will be greatly reduced
<mhall119> the sandbox is there to prevent accidental or poorly-thought-out code from doing bad things
<mhall119> and while we will remove apps from the archive if they violate the terms and conditions, we won't be removing them form people's machines
<coolbhavi> mhall119, thanks a lot that was my concern meant by manual review in developer identification/verification
<mhall119> coolbhavi: right, so they will have to state that they are allowed by the project to upload, but we won't have to verify that
<mhall119> we'll only verify that if someone else from the project objects
<coolbhavi> seems fine with me
<mhall119> ajmitch: we had discussed giving the user the ability to select which apparmor policies to allow and which to deny, but the concern is that would put a considerable amount of extra work on the developer to be able to handle any combination of accepted/rejected access
<mhall119> for example,I couldn't just assume in my code that I could send desktop notifications, I'd have to try/catch everything and gracefully handle failures
<mhall119> ajmitch: I'm checking in on that RT, if you guys ever have any problems with things like that just let me know and I'll hound somebody about it
<coolbhavi> mhall119, thanks for your wonderful work on the spec btw :)
<mhall119> :)
<mhall119> thanks for taking the time to read it (I know it's long) and give feedback
<coolbhavi> mhall119, you are welcome hopefully I can addon re-reading the spec after my UDW session :)
<coolbhavi> mhall119, shall I pm you?
<mhall119> coolbhavi: sure
<mhall119> but if it's about the spec, it'd be better to discuss it here
<coolbhavi> mhall119, not about the spec though :)
<gotwig> jo
<PaoloRotolo> Hello!
<coolbhavi> hello PaoloRotolo
<PaoloRotolo> Hey, coolbhavi :)
<coolbhavi> :)
<PaoloRotolo> coolbhavi: you've a session at 16:00, right :)?
<coolbhavi> yep
<coolbhavi> :)
<PaoloRotolo> cool
<gotwig> coolbhavi: whats the topic?
<coolbhavi> gotwig, regarding dev advisory team
<gotwig> okay
<gotwig> coolbhavi: are you also part of the arb?
<coolbhavi> yes
<gotwig> nice that I final catch one guy ;P
<PaoloRotolo> Hi gotwig :)
<gotwig> coolbhavi: so can you maybe tell me when my app gets reviewed, or I get more info? I think I need more Info for packaging properly. its a bit hacky, mhall helped me
<gotwig> PaoloRotolo: sup ;)
<coolbhavi> gotwig, ll get back to you after my session
<gotwig> coolbhavi: when is your session? in hours please
<gotwig> I am in another timezone ;)
<PaoloRotolo> gotwig: now :P
<gotwig> PaoloRotolo: :-)
<PaoloRotolo> gotwig: what is your app?
<gotwig> PaoloRotolo: Unity Cooking Lens
<gotwig> https://myapps.developer.ubuntu.com/dev/apps/749/
<PaoloRotolo> gotwig: great. I'll try it too
<gotwig> PaoloRotolo: you should read the AskUbuntu post :-)
<gotwig> http://askubuntu.com/a/105184
<gotwig> PaoloRotolo: do you know about cookety?
<gotwig> coolbhavi: where is your session?
<PaoloRotolo> gotwig: now, sorry
<PaoloRotolo> now/no
<gotwig> PaoloRotolo: you sould check it out. I think about supporting it. It seems it author has gave it a shot
<coolbhavi> dpm, got a ARB question :)
<gotwig> Hey there..
<mhall119> ajmitch: can you ping deej in #canonical-sysadmin about that RT?
<mhall119> he's trying to find out what's going on
<gotwig> cielak: hey
<cielak> hey gotwig
<gotwig> cielak: are you a arb guy ;P ?
<cielak> gotwig: sorry, no
<ajmitch> mhall119: sure, that's why I thought I'd ping you about it, in case you knew someone who could get it moving
<mhall119> thanks ajmitch
<ajmitch> np, about the only thing I can do this week :)
#ubuntu-arb 2012-08-30
<dholbach> good morning
<dpm> hey ajmitch, have you had the chance to look at the spec? It'd be cool if we could make it public tomorrow, but I want to make sure the ARB has had a good look and is happy with it
<dpm> and did you manage to get your computer working? ;)
<gotwig> dpm: hey, do you work on unity translations?
<dpm> hi gotwig, it depends on what you mean by working :)
<gotwig> dpm: what about unity shortcut overlay text. Why are new strings at launchpad not
<gotwig>  u
<gotwig> s
<gotwig> ed
<gotwig> ?
<dpm> gotwig, can you be a bit more specific? Which exact strings? Which Ubuntu version? Is there a bug about it already?
<gotwig> dpm: please wait :-)
<gotwig> dpm: https://bugs.launchpad.net/unity/+bug/924840
<gotwig> bug 924840
<gotwig> oh, no bots here ;D
<dpm> gotwig, your comment in there does not seem related to the original bug, which makes it a bit confusing for developers to track (yes, it's all about translations, but they are completely separate issues as far as I can tell). Would you mind filing a separate bug? If you could add as much detail as possible, that'll make it easier to track down and fix (e.g. I'm not sure what you mean by "the old strings"). Thanks!
<gotwig> dpm: I dont know if its my fault.
<gotwig> dpm: Maybe these translations are now hosted somewhere else? Do you understand my last comment?
<dpm> gotwig, I do not understand it, not (btw, no one's talked about blame here, so I'm pretty sure whatever is happening is not your fault :)
<dpm> Ubuntu translations are always hosted in Launchpad
<gotwig> dpm: I mean, do you think this page is the right page for translations, that I linked in my comment?
<gotwig> dpm: but is that the right package? It should be right?
<gotwig> its part of Unity, isnt it?
<dpm> gotwig, the page you linked is the right one for Unity Quantal translations, yes. But the bug where you added the comment is not about outdated translations
<dpm> if you are referring to Quantal strings translated in Launchpad and not yet appearing in Ubuntu, it's because they have not yet been exported and put in a language pack
<dpm> this should happen soon, no need to file a bug for the development release about this one (if I understood correctly what you're describing)
<gotwig> dpm: good.
<gotwig> see ya
<ajmitch> dpm: I looked, I got my computer going & ubuntu installed rather late last night (and just got home tonight at 11:30 :) )
<ajmitch> sorry I haven't added more than comments on irc
<dpm> ajmitch, no worries, I just want to make sure you guys are happy with the spec and we've factored in any feedback you might have before going to ubuntu-devel
<dpm> ajmitch, also, did someone on #canonical-sysadmin help you sorting out the syncing from PPA to extras?
<ajmitch> yes, that's been sorted now
 * ajmitch had originally asked there last week & filed the ticket
<ajmitch> dpm: I appreciate you wanting to get our feedback & the spec clarified, it's just unfortunately a rather busy time for me
<dpm> ajmitch, no worries. From our conversations, you've started reviewing the spec already, and from your comments and questions on IRC, I understand that overall you're happy with it. If that is the case, would it work better for you to give the input later? That is, when we announce it on ubuntu-devel?
<ajmitch> dpm: I think so, I'll be recoverin from the conference next week :)
<dpm> ajmitch, great, thanks :)
#ubuntu-arb 2012-08-31
<coolbhavi> hey dpm  sorry was not able to make it yesterday as I was with the doctor
<dpm> coolbhavi, no worries, how are you doing?
<coolbhavi> dpm, a bit better now. Thanks!
<coolbhavi> dpm, how are you btw?
<dpm> busy, and flying out today for a weekend trip
<dpm> glad to hear you're a bit better
<dpm> nice to see yet another app uploaded, good work!
<coolbhavi> :)
<dholbach> good morning
<coolbhavi> dholbach, good morning!
 * coolbhavi runs now
<dholbach> hey coolbhavi
<coolbhavi> dholbach, :) work calling :) ciao later!
<dholbach> see you
#ubuntu-arb 2012-09-01
<PaoloRotolo> Good morning!
<noneed4anick> hey guys
<wendar> hi noneed4anick
#ubuntu-arb 2012-09-02
<noneed4anick> anyone here?
<coolbhavi> wendar, good morning!
<wendar> good morning! :)
<wendar> or evening?
<coolbhavi> night :)
<coolbhavi> wendar, thanks for your reply on the list
<wendar> coolbhavi: thanks for your hard work voting and publishing
<wendar> sorry I haven't had more time, work has been really crazy lately
<coolbhavi> :) thanks a lot! I'm looking at publishing of +3 votes before the CC meeting so it would sound good :)
<wendar> coolbhavi: and yes, it's a good idea to verify with the developer that he really meant to only search precise packages
<coolbhavi> wendar, yes it would help before publishing
<noneed4anick> hey guys, anyone here not idling?
