#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-04-19
<TheMuso> persia: There s discussion on pkg-multimedia about the various versions of jackd, and having them all available in debian. Seems upstream is not pleased about jack2 being treated as the successor to jack1. Add to that, there is also a third jack implementation called tschack, and there is also jack3, which is a c++ rewrite of jack1.
<persia> heh.  Madness.
<TheMuso> yup
<persia> But I like the kraftwerk reference.
<TheMuso> heh
<ScottL> TheMuso, does jack2 work on single core computers? if so, then why would we (or anyone) want to have jack1?
<ScottL> and where is the benefit in rewriting jack1 in c++?  does it reduce a dependency?
<TheMuso> ScottL: Afaik jack2 does work on single core/CPU machines./
<TheMuso> ScottL: Rewriting jac1 in C++ is probably useful for code maintainability/extendability, not sure why else.
<persia> Some folk also just like rewriting stuff in different languages
<scott-work> persia, TheMuso : i'm still working on that paper I told you about, my father came to visit this weekend and used up my spare time that I had allotted, i _really_ want to be finished by this friday
<scott-work> detrate: ping
<detrate> hi
<detrate> I'm not sure if I have the xcf for the website anymore, I switched from ubuntu studio back to plain ubuntu after ~a week for a few reasons.
<detrate> I thought the workflow would cater more towards artists / musicians but I saw no obvious organization of this, just additional packages... it seemed over simplified to the point where I felt I was losing features and it was less stable for me than regular ubuntu
<persia> less stable?  That seems odd, as it's the same code.
<persia> But yeah, the "less features" bit is sorta-intentional, lots of folks need the extra resources for their audio/video/etc. processing, and so don't want all the other bits.
<persia> I hope you just installed ubuntu-desktop to switch, rather than going through a reinstall.
<detrate> I actually created a livecd with remastersys from my laptop
<detrate> I think ubuntu studio can benefit from streamlining workflows for various different types of creators but I don't want to tell you how to run your project
<detrate> I do know that many of my dj friends would be very confused if they used ubuntu studio though
<ScottL> detrate, suggestions are always welcome though :)
<ScottL> oh, and are you still interested in updating the website?
<detrate> I may be able to help or at least consult
<detrate> Refresh my memory please, the current website uses a custom CMS?
<ScottL> drupal i believe
<ScottL> but also, please make any suggestions you can about work flow as well
<detrate> in any case I'd reccomend using wordpress if possible.  It's a great way to collaborate with other maintainers with limited to no knowledge of HTML code but also just as easy for php gurus to code for.  You can get some amazing plugins that will provide you with out of the box SEO advantages, not that you need that specifically for your project as you're under the wing of ubuntu but using a sitemap plugin you can help google 
<detrate> index content of all pages properly and return more relevant results to the user.
<detrate> drupal I found confusing for both developers and end users
<detrate> workflows, I think it's important to document from basic to more advanced methods for creation that you'd find in a similar windows or OS X environment
<detrate> if you give a few good examples for specific programs, you can get users to begin contributing articles of ~equal value 
<detrate> the website itself doesn't seem to highlight the key features that ubuntu studio offers, it says "download, install, create" but doesn't really elaborate on the create, there is audio, graphics and video listed below... but they don't really clarify either
<detrate> you don't even need to start off with videos made by ubuntu studio dev team, you can find tutorials on youtube/vimeo that will assist new users in getting aquainted
<detrate> you may want to create a filtration system for incoming users based on their expertise and direct them to proper resources to get started
<detrate> even as an experience ubuntu user I felt lost on a fresh install
<detrate> the overall look of the website does not make ubuntu studio appear to be serious but rather hint at what is ahead (this is not a compliment).  You need to begin building trust with your future users from the first second they arrive at your site
<detrate> 'logo' in the top right, the logo having little to no contrast as it overlays the menu, no hover effects on the menu, too much information below the fold and only 1 call to action, "download now"
<detrate> I haven't read a clear mission statment either
<detrate> the closest thing is a blurb next to download no but that doesn't give me the confidence I'd expect as a user.
<ScottL> "too much informatio below the fold" has bothered me considerably as well
<detrate> you want to be flashy, hip and productive in the process
<detrate> you can condense a lot of information with a slider or a similar javascript widget
<detrate> unless you have qualms about using javascript (with 99% of users having it turned on, you shouldn't)
<detrate> the people turning it off either have a good reason or they are paranoid nerds
<detrate> Think of the questions a user might ask when arriving to your site
<ScottL> i really had not considered that wordpress was CMS, but rather just for blogs
<detrate> "Where am I? What is this? How can I benefit? What should I check out next?"
<detrate> it's a very flexible system that was first built for bloggers but it's most definitely a CMS and one I've been recommending and using for the greater time of the last half year
<detrate> here is one my company just rolled out in just a week (including copy) for a crisis client http://www.savesandhilllakes.com/
<detrate> your front page doesn't have to be a blog and wordpress is very keen to helping you change it to a static page and redirect it to another page
<detrate> their documentation is pretty solid, they provided (default) user roles (levels) and there are plugins to extend them.
<detrate> again the available plugins are quite impressive and I can advise you on a handful to kick it off with.
<detrate> My only complaint is that many of the themes are created by amatures hacking together HTML and CSS/JS from other templates so the markup could be more sound out of the box but this is a view level issue that can easily be solved by creating a template from scratch (which isn't as daunting a task as it sounds)
<ScottL> you work for a company that makes websites?
<detrate> I work for a company that specializes in behavior change and communications, I lead the web team and manage IT for the company.
<ScottL> hi cory
<ScottL> several of us really, really want to change the website and i'm willing to spend some of my own, personal money to do so (to a limit)
<detrate> As one of the leading social marketing companies in the US, we recognize how much effect the internet (websites, mobile applications, social media, adverstisements) can have on campaigns
<ckontros> Hi guys. Whats going on? How the hell do you activate the binary drivers with that damn restricted driver dialog? I swear they /used/ to have a checkbox or something.
<detrate> so we often have various projects that involve these medias
<detrate> Okay ScottL, roughly what is your time frame and budget?
<ScottL> detrate, you might laugh but I don't have a time frame and I was hoping for no more that $200
<ScottL> usd
<detrate> okay, well being a FOSS advocate, I think I can work within that budget but the timeframe may be about a month or longer.  Perhaps faster if I'm given help.
<detrate> areas in which most help would be appreciated are 1) website design / slicing into WP template 2) Creating copy 3) Collecting content
<detrate> You'll also want to start building a team of website maintainers if you do not have one already.
<detrate> by this I mean updating content, writing news, interacting with social media sites
<detrate> with wordpress, we can tie into social networks like facebook and twitter to automaticall post to these sites
<detrate> being the #2 most popular websites on the internet it's iimportant to have good representation on facebook, especially given that some users in your target audience would never even consider going to the website to check for updates, let alone subscribing to RSS or twitter feeds
<ScottL> have social media integration was a important consideration to many who voiced opinions
<detrate> yes but you need a team to be active on them
<ckontros> A team of any sort lately is what the project has severely lacked. :(
<detrate> A strong leader is the beginning, a strong community keeps it going.
<ckontros> heh +1 to the 1st part.
 * ckontros pats Scott on the back.
<detrate> define your vision, inspire minds and move forward as a team to create the future, a dream you've created and then live in together to further progress to new plateus.
<ScottL> I am a team of 1 ;)
<detrate> only with that attitude
<ScottL> ckontros, i have a paper I wrote that I would like for you to read
<ScottL> it deals much with building community
<detrate> wiki's are a great way to grow a vision
<ScottL> detrate, my "team" statement meant that I am moving things forward but am forced to do so by myself for the most part, i crave others to assist
<detrate> I know exactly what you meant and I've felt the way you've felt before, said things the way you said before and have further refined my understanding of the situation and the community on a greater scale.
<ckontros> detrate: Not to be a downer, but we're such a small part of Ubuntu, so specific a use-case, its been hard to sustain anything great. I think I've personally generated 90% of any Studio wiki pages. I made a pretty sizable base to which few helped. (outside of our small team)
<ckontros> ScottL: Sure. Email me.
<detrate> yes because you aren't yet attracting the right kind of people
<detrate> but my advice is aiming to help you do just that
<ckontros> detrate: IYO the "right" folks are?
<detrate> IYO?
<detrate> in my opinion
<ckontros> "I you opinion" :)
<ckontros> *your
<ckontros> damn (cant type today)
<detrate> the types of people you'll be attracting with this new vision I'm describing to you.
<ScottL> i think improving the website and communicating more the users will help develop that community
<ckontros> detrate: I thought the "leader" should be describing that?
<detrate> I'm trying to inspire him to do so
<detrate> I don't see why you're being confrontational about it.
<ckontros> Im confused "detrate: the types of people you'll be attracting with this new vision I'm describing to you." :)
<ckontros> detrate: No no. Just chatting.
<detrate> with the website and the team to help keep content updated and users involved
<troy_s> detrate: Sorry to weigh in here, it isn't a question of 'the right kind of people', it is the Pareto principle in action.
<ScottL> that is the Pareto principle?
<detrate> by the "right kind of people", I mean the types of people who will be happy to build a vision with you and utilize the resources you provide, further building and strengthing community.
<troy_s> detrate: It is a well known factor in complex groups. Also known as the more colloquial 80/20 rule.
<ckontros> And note I'm just chatting. Asking questions. ScottL is free to do what he likes.
<detrate> I apologize for any principles I have demonstrated in my lack of information
<ScottL> i know the 80/20 rule
<troy_s> detrate: There are MANY valuable people, including those that only adjust a single sentence on a wiki page. But the Pareto principle still stands. Clay Shirky has written and discussed it extensively.
<troy_s> detrate: No need to apologize. It seems to be a rather core function of a complex system. I think what Cory was loosely getting at is that no matter what, you will _always_ be subject to that rule (Cory's estimate that he wrote 90% of the wiki is likely almost on point - more closely to maybe 80% in the early going?)
<ckontros> Sure
<troy_s> detrate: What in essence is required is ultimately greater numbers. Plain and simple. How to do that when dealing with a very specific audience (perhaps could be more specific and more greatly deliver to that audience's needs is another question entirely) with already limited numbers.
<troy_s> detrate: Follow me?
<detrate> Patience, I was away talking to a friend IRL
#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-04-20
<ScottL> detrate, ubuntu studio does have a very singular history and dynamic but i imagine we all still are open to hearing others suggestions
<detrate> I know you need to defend your territory right now but your attitude will do nothing but deter my efforts to help you
<detrate> troy_s: 
<troy_s> detrate: Trust me. I have nothing to defend detrate. I am not really a part of this project.
<troy_s> detrate: But I think you are fundamentally failing to address the core here. Let's assume population X. Of population X, you have %Y that is of the audience to which Ubuntu Studio caters (again we can debate until we are blue in the face as to who that should be, and what granularity etc.)
<detrate> Do you lead a lot of communities or read about them in books?
<troy_s> detrate: In the _greater_ world, that is a SMALL number. Artists, designers, musicians, etc. make up a seriously small percentage of the total base.
<troy_s> detrate: It simply plays a game of numbers in there end. 
<troy_s> detrate: No, actually I deal with bogus design decision in Freetard software every day because decisions are made in the name of everyone and everything - a fictional myth.
<detrate> you should really consider your audience before saying such idiotic things
<ckontros> detrate: Troy is a long-time friend of the project and trust me. Knows a thing ot 2. ;)
<troy_s> detrate: I am considering my audience. I live in Free Software every single day friend. I have zero proprietary work in all of my work when it comes to software. I am, dare I say, part of that ecosystem.
<ckontros> *or
<troy_s> detrate: But we unfortunately juggle certain things and some of those things are numerical in nature. It is unavoidable.
<troy_s> detrate: We could do well to attract say, a hot independent band to push things along (greater numbers for uptake) or a brilliant independent artist (again greater numbers via halo) etc.
<ckontros> detrate: I personally am jazzed to see new folks like you in here but you might need to feel around a bit more. :)
<detrate> as one of the founders of the new open-source first project shooter xonotic which spawns from a game I helped grow, Nexuiz www.alientrap.org/nexuiz -- which was recently sold behind all the contributors backs with engine developer lordhavoc (www.nexuiz.com), I know a bit about free software and communities surrounding them myself.
<troy_s> detrate: Sure. But you surely wouldn't suggest for even a moment that Nexuiz is but more than a blip on the gaming scene right?
<ScottL> ah cool, but how did you come up with the name nexuiz?
<detrate> nexuiz was a name mispelled by the original artist and the founder didn't have him change it.  as weird of a name as it was, it was ours and we did a considerable amount to build and learn that game and the surrounding communities.
<troy_s> detrate: And yet, it is still just a teeny little itsty blip.
<troy_s> detrate: Which is something that we all struggle with. We aren't terribly relevant.
<detrate> troy_s: did you win a gold award for being an asshole?
<ckontros> detrate: We've had a target audience since the beginning but as the project is going through a rough patch, it could be time for a new direction. That's where ScottL comes in.
<troy_s> detrate: Yes. Platinum.
<ScottL> ha, that's a great story and funny how those things happen like that
<troy_s> detrate: I'm just saying that no matter what you do, this comes down to audience.
<detrate> troy_s: whatever audience you have, you're not hitting
<troy_s> detrate: And some certainly are important - vision leaders etc., in the end, numbers will govern aspects of it.
<detrate> I'm here offering my services to help define and target them better
<ckontros> detrate: Really man, nobody's being aggressive here. No need for you to be.
<troy_s> detrate: Again, _I_ have nothing to do with the drive of this project. Sorry. Although I will accept all responsibility for any and all failure.
<troy_s> ;)
<ScottL> you two argue _way_ over my head
<troy_s> detrate: At any rate, I'd love to hear a solution. First however, I'd ask you to define a problem.
<troy_s> detrate: Sound fair?
<detrate> did you read the chat log?
<ckontros> detrate: Actually, our original target we hit quite well I feel. It's just that those folks arent the best for building s development team. I feel they are mostly just end-users.
<detrate> I defined it above
<detrate> okay, I apologize, as I was focusing my comments on the new audience you wish to attract
<detrate> I see now that I have offended the current audience you have attracted
<troy_s> detrate: Yes. I still don't quite believe I have a handle on the problem _you_ are citing. I'm an idiot, so a little clarification would be excellent. Sorry...
<detrate> and that was not my intent and I apologize for any confrontation that was had because of this.
<troy_s> detrate: Bear with me... as I do value opinions very much.
<rlameiro> hey guys, check this out
<rlameiro> http://ur1.ca/vy1z
 * ckontros hugs the channel. :P
<detrate> Do you have a wiki I can outline my proposal in?
<ScottL> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudio
<ScottL> that's the first page, just make another
<troy_s> detrate: All I can request right now is say, a two sentence summary of what you perceive to be the issue?
<troy_s> detrate: Is that fair? A sort of 'Here is a problem I perceive' pitch if you will.
<ScottL> detrate, wait, don't use that one...my bad
<ScottL> hold one
<troy_s> (after all, this is the Twitter world now... we went from 15 minute attention spans down to 30 second Bugs Bunny sound bites down to 140 character Twitter attention.)
<ScottL> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Sandbox
<ScottL> try that one
<detrate> I joined the group on launchpad
<ckontros> detrate: Strong leadership is exactly what we need. I was it for, 4 releases I think now. I *HAD* to back off as it was/is effecting my home life. I hope ScottL can pull it together. If he really is up to taking the lead, then he's the guy to answer some of your questions that are spot on.
<detrate> troy_s: you've already said you've had little to nothing to do with this project and now you're giving me direct orders?
<troy_s> detrate: Wow. I'll bow out.
<troy_s> detrate: Thanks for the chat.
<detrate> I don't understand your angle is all
<ckontros> detrate: And note, troy_s has asked in the past and helped us to get on the very same track. We're just a bit off it now. ;)
<ckontros> *asked the same questions...
<persia> And really, we need to answer the questions to be successful.  That troy_s is busy in other places doesn't make the questions less valuable.
<ckontros> +1
<ckontros> Hi Emmet. Damn. I miss talking to you guys. :)
<rlameiro> where can we propose new software for US?
<persia> Hey Cory.
<rlameiro> http://ur1.ca/vy1z 
<rlameiro> does this software fit the bill for the US?
<ckontros> rlameiro: There /should/ be a wiki page but I think there's more fundamental questions to tackle 1st. (app does look cool though)
<detrate> I cannot login to edit the wiki
<detrate> odd
<detrate> I'm in launchpad
<rlameiro> ckontros: yeah, i know, but I think it could be useful
<ckontros> I feel that if ScottL had the will (and a bit of time) he can do it. After all, It's all I had when I started things. ;)
<ckontros> Well, that and a bit of JoeJaxx. :)
<ScottL> yeah, things will get done, but it will take time ;)
<JuniperJaxx> hi
<ckontros> FAIL!!!
<JuniperJaxx> rofl
<ckontros> hahahahha
<ckontros> JuniperJaxx: Don't you have a 50cent concert to be at?
<rlameiro> well, as i am not a dev, what are the more important things to do for US?
<ScottL> testing and documenation
<persia> testing, testing, testing.
<ScottL> followed by more testing
<rlameiro> i am testing :D
<JuniperJaxx> ckontros: lol yeah right
<ckontros> rlameiro: Current direction for the project. What it aims to be for the future.
<rlameiro> well, not testing iso actually, but yeah, testing
<persia> rlameiro: We've just got new ISOs published for Lucid RC.  HAve you had a chance to test if they actually install?
<troy_s> detrate: Sorry too. I wasn't giving a 'direct order' either. I was merely asking for a really quick summary of what you perceived a / the problem to be. I don't think you will find a SINGLE person in here that wants this project to fail. In fact, quite the opposite. It likely stems from a disparity of exactly what the 'problem' is, hence my asking.
<rlameiro> i need to test the RC iso
 * ckontros goes to eat dinner.
<rlameiro> persia: I got the e-mail, i need to download it and make a 3rd ubnut install on my laptop :D
<persia> Yeah.  We need a complete set of test coverage on the RC ISO if we're going to make a lucid release.
<ScottL> yeah, i learned an important lesson about testing the ISO when an ISO didn't get released because all test cases were not complete
<ScottL> i will be paying special attention to the test cases and mail the -user list as needed
<rlameiro> ok, what test case are less made?
<persia> rlameiro: For ISO testing, I usually just use a throwaway space, to wipe/reinstall as needed for ISO testing.  MY experience is that it's not worth keeping the install results.
<ckontros> ISO testing is important. If we're not tested enough, they can stop being published.
 * ckontros really gone now.
<ScottL> lol
<rlameiro> well, i dont have a chance to make a full hdd install, but i can make the test on partition
<rlameiro> or at least on the available one
<rlameiro> i386 or 64, what is less tested?
<ScottL> my guess is the i386
<ScottL> but just watch the test cases and see which ones aren't completed, check every day
<TheMuso> I can pitch in with iso testing if need be.
<rlameiro> ok, rsync or zsync?
<TheMuso> Whatever works for you
<TheMuso> zsync is supposedly quicker.
<ckontros> (and better on the server as per crimsun)
<rlameiro> ok
 * ScottL is going outside with the kids, be back in a bit
<rlameiro> why would ubuntustudio need a mandatory LTSP test?
<persia> I'd call that a bug in the ISO test coverage list.
<persia> Asking in #ubuntu-testing ought be enough to make that go away.
<rlameiro> well, they have that test cases for the alternate iso
<rlameiro> iin general...
<ScottL> or the encryption test?  and what is the LTSP test?
<ckontros> rlameiro: Our installer is different for one.
<ckontros> Oh wait,
<ckontros> I misread as "LTS" :P
<rlameiro> lol
<rlameiro> no, whas my fail
<rlameiro> i clicked the wrong link
<ckontros> Yeah. I agree w/persia. We shouldn't need it.
<rlameiro> puff, i started to be scared, whrere we would find people to test with thin clients
<rlameiro> lol
<detrate> sorry for my brief absence, I was adding my ideas to the wiki page as requested: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Sandbox
<detrate> I will review the log now
<ckontros> np
<persia> detrate: Lots of us regularly do other things whilst idling, and read logs: don't worry if you do as well, as otherwise you'll never get anythig done.
<ckontros> Ok. Time to take care of the fam. Later guys.
<detrate> no comments on my proposal?
<detrate> okay
<detrate> well that's just coincidence I guess.
<persia> detrate: your proposal is "New Website Vision"?
<detrate> yes
<persia> I've no real opinion on that then, but I agree we have to better define the goals before how we implement stuff matters
<rlameiro> detrate: i like the idea, but would it be better to do it in drupal?
<detrate> no
<persia> Moving to wordpress makes it easy to update the website with article-like stuff, but that's only a benefit if someone is writing article.
<troy_s> detrate: What is a perceived bottleneck?
<persia> And *which* system (drupal, wrodpress, etc.) makes no difference at all.
<detrate> yes, which system does matter
<troy_s> Amen to persia.
<persia> detrate: It's an implementation detail.
<rlameiro> word press is having some security issues in this times
<persia> detrate: The content matters.  How the content is presented should be selected based on who is updating the content.
<detrate> because network solutions database was hacked?
<persia> rlameiro: It's not worth us arguing about which is the right tool: the right tool is the tool that makes the work *by the person doing the work* easiest.
<detrate> I know how to package content to help spread information, which is essentially what you're aiming to accomplish
<rlameiro> well, what i would love ist to forward articles from blogs that mention ubuntustudio, i would love that
<TheMuso> I'd agree about the CMS being an implementation detail, but I also put my hand up for drupal. I t has a lot of commercial backing, and Canonical also uses it, not that that makes any difference or us.
<detrate> okay, well I'm also a web developer and I prefer wordpress as do many others. I have a working formula base of plugins and the ease of maintaince for both users and developers is smoother in wordpress in my experience.
<rlameiro> persia: agree with you, i just was asking, because i dont understand so much of cms/blogging platforms
<troy_s> rlameiro: With regards to the overall showing how 'alive' Ubuntu Studio is (arguably a pretty compelling factor to a casual audience member) I think it is a pretty astute point.
<detrate> clients often find drupal over the top for their needs and I don't see how we'd need all of drupal for this
<detrate> I mean, the current site is in drupal
<persia> Can we all just agree that once there is a plan for a website, whoever accepts responsibility to ensure the website is in good condition gets to select the tools used to drive the website?
<detrate> and it's not even being utilized
<TheMuso> persia: Yeah I agree
<detrate> canonical also moved the window buttons to the left on an LTS
<troy_s> detrate: That gets back to defining what the perceived bottleneck _is_, to whom, and what possible design solutions can be provided to overcome it.
<detrate> to people like myself who want to help the project grow but don't really have an outlet.
<troy_s> detrate: But you see, that is one half of the picture would you not agree?
<rlameiro> I vote for the maintainer to use the tool that fit best to his own workflow, so wordpres :D
<troy_s> detrate: Ubuntu Studio has an implied audience of people that (hopefully lol) rely on the software to achieve their goals / meet their needs / etc.
<detrate> okay, so websites aren't considered software now?
<troy_s> detrate: And in the end, it is _that_ audience that the design _must_ cater to. Not the other way around. The other side is _certainly_ important, but basing every design decision on the developer(?) core is likely faulty.
<troy_s> detrate: The website is clearly important. I'm not disagreeing with you. But when you suggest that 'people who want to help the project grow', that's a HUGE selection of people there. And each one has a pretty significant role.
<troy_s> detrate: Is a developer important? The website admin? HELL Yes.
<rlameiro> troy_s: i get you, but at this moment, US needs people and needas a revamped website, wheather it is drupal, joomle, wordpres or tikiwiki
<ScottL> i will help with content, etc
<detrate> are there any services that are currently aggregating information from or to the website?
<troy_s> rlameiro: Agree. The issue I see though is that all the development in the world isn't going to provide salvation if the tools aren't uptaken by the proper audience and demonstrated to be effective. It's a strange cyclical issue here.
<troy_s> rlameiro: Follow me?
<detrate> when all you haves a hammer, everything looks like a nail
<rlameiro> more or less, i am new to this involvement on the dev team
<rlameiro> well, what would be the community features?
<troy_s> detrate: I guess I'd start by suggesting what is the _core goal_ of the project.
<rlameiro> who can post, how?
<troy_s> If the core goal is to provide a service, what is it? To whom?
<ScottL> detrate, no service are aggregating to or from it right now i believe
<rlameiro> will it have a calaendar for instance etc?
<troy_s> And likely the answer to _that_ important question, is precisely who the audience for the primary website touch point is.
<troy_s> CUT TO: Crickets chirping.
<detrate> I'm really more here to provide you a shell FOR YOUR vision and guide you on how to reach your audience with specific content
<ScottL> sorry, kids are driving me nuts
<rlameiro> lol
<detrate> :-p
<rlameiro> detrate: will it be easy to integrate openid with the site
<rlameiro> for instance to upload screenshots
<ScottL> i would suggest the website is the nexus for users, it should include news, updates, links to tutorials, user work
<troy_s> detrate: I don't think there is any shortage of people that are amazingly gifted at solving problems in here. (I'd point to crimsun and persia etc. but that would just look like suckholing.)
<rlameiro> maybe selecting people from launchpad teams etc?
<detrate> rlameiro: there is a plugin for both a great gallery script that has public upload and openid
<ScottL> user work = music, videos, graphics
<troy_s> detrate: The bigger problem seems to stem from figuring out _just_ what to do and why.
<ScottL> polling would be nice to involve the user base so they can be involved in development
<rlameiro> troy_s: well, maybe we should strat to make an outline then?
<rlameiro> what social media to have?
<rlameiro> tweeter and identi.ca
<detrate> there are some great plugins for polls, some medicore free ones for surveys
<ScottL> place for suggestions would also be nice
<rlameiro> facebook..... well dunno
<ScottL> all the social media as well
<troy_s> rlameiro: I think that that would be a HELLUVA good choice at this critical time for Ubuntu Studio.
<detrate> great plugin for contact form that a user of any skill could change the copy for
<detrate> facebook = #2 site on the internet
<troy_s> rlameiro: Damn good choice. Because otherwise it could end up with a LOT of energy that yields no dividends. Or worse, a lot of energy that gets trumped by the next 'why' (however poorly explained) to come along.
<detrate> in terms of traffic
<rlameiro> detrate, is it possible to parse the identica and tweeter streams to search for ubuntustudio tags?
<detrate> yes
<detrate> and digg
<ScottL> detrate, most of those involved with Studio are great at hacking things, so once it's set up i would imaging that we could keep things progressing
<detrate> and google blogs
<detrate> which is exactly what I'd like to see
<ScottL> yes, place for developer blogs and well as an aggregator for user blogs that center around Studio
<detrate> I want to give you a stronger foundation to evolve from
<rlameiro> ok, so is it possible to cross over the identification system with a specific launchpad team?
<ScottL> is anyone writing this down?  LOL
<rlameiro> in this case ubuntustudio team?
<detrate> that I'm not sure of
<rlameiro> ScottL: can this be copyed from the log bot?
<ScottL> if not then I will put it into the sandbox wiki later after i handle the kids
<detrate> I was hoping we can specific specific user roles for certain users
<ScottL> rlameiro, should be able to
<ScottL> detrate, three come to mind off the top of the head: admin, dev, user
<ScottL> admin goes everyone and does everything
<ScottL> dev can post articles, blog
<detrate> it's a bit different than that
<detrate> there are default roles
<detrate> you can expand on them with plugins if you need
<rlameiro> detrate: that is a good idea, but everyone in here has work, kids etc, so people need to have freedom to jump from diferent roles
<detrate> can drupal do this?
<ScottL> yes, drupal has roles
<rlameiro> yes
<detrate> no, I mean the tight integration with openid
<detrate> and inheriting the roles
<rlameiro> with opeid yes, but with launchpad i dont know..
<detrate> okay, so we are at the same point
<rlameiro> maybe
<detrate> I have to look into it more to know if that's possible
 * rlameiro is diggin some page about ubuntu and drupal things
<detrate> hmmm https://code.launchpad.net/wordpress-openid-integration
<detrate> oh, not what I thought actually
<rlameiro> detrate: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDrupal
<rlameiro> yes it haves
<rlameiro> launchpad integration
<rlameiro> https://launchpad.net/drupal-launchpad
<persia> So, just out of curiosity, which problem are we solving with this?
<ScottL> integration with launchpad?   (i don't really know, just saying)
<rlameiro> persia: integration with the launchpad :D
<persia> My concern is that if we're solving the not-enough-users problem, and we don't have other solutions in place for the not-enough-support-folks, not-enough-testers, and not-enough-developers, we end up with lots of annoyed users.
<detrate> does the current site integrate with launchpad?
<ScottL> don't think so ;)
<rlameiro> no AFAIK
<rlameiro> persia: i am trying to spread the word, ScottL made an interview on the OSMPodcast
<detrate> is this really a necessary feature?
<troy_s> persia: Prescient.
<ScottL> i would like a snazzy new website, that's flashy and attractive, which user can come to often for news and updates and the "inside scoop" on ubuntu studio
<troy_s> persia: Or perhaps, what exactly is being solved.
<rlameiro> so i hope, we get some more help
<detrate> name_user_roles - (serialized) this is a built-in WordPress option, so the plugin certainly doesn't modify it directly.  It does however add the capability named "use_openid_provider" that controls which user roles are allowed use their author URLs as OpenIDs (either using the local OpenID provider, or delegating elsewhere).
<detrate> http://wiki.diso-project.org/wordpress-openid-api
<detrate> I'm not sure what help that is as I'm not really familiar with the openid system
<rlameiro> yeah, for instance to talk about possible upcoming features, like dbused jack  etc
<ScottL> i personally don't think that integration with launchpad is all that necessary, i think we need the people who aren't already using launchpad to help to add to the aggragate
<ScottL> the news section needs to have RSS so users can subsribe to get new news
<persia> Let's ask some fundamental questions.  What do we do?  Are we building a flavour?  Supporting multimedia software?  Writing integration tools?
<rlameiro> a link to the ubuntustudio section at the ubuntuforums
<troy_s> ScottL: ?
<ScottL> troy_s, yes?
<troy_s> ScottL: I was wondering your opinion on persia's question.
<rlameiro> persia: sorry, I dont get you questions
<ScottL> oh, didn't see it...reading and ignoring the family
<troy_s> rlameiro: What portion of his question?
<rlameiro> troy_s: all of it
<troy_s> rlameiro: I think he is asking that someone step up and frame the problem. What exactly is the _goal_ of the project.
<troy_s> rlameiro: Make sense?
<rlameiro> troy_s: yes it makes
<ScottL> hmmm, the goal is providing multimedia software in me opinion
<troy_s> ScottL: Ok hold on then. Multimedia.
<troy_s> ScottL: Where are you drawing the line?
<ScottL> with goals to increase the scope into script writing
<ScottL> etc
<rlameiro> i think a flavour
<ScottL> those don't answer your quesion troy_s 
<troy_s> ScottL: Hold on. Photography software is multimedia software. So is it for iPhoto like stuff?
<ScottL> troy_s, to answer your question it might even include website development software, don't know iPhoto
<rlameiro> A flavour of PRO software for Multimedia/artistic  purposes
<persia> So, to frame my questions: we currently do all of that.  We currently do most of it in a fairly weak manner, for complex reasons.
<ScottL> true
<troy_s> ScottL: Ok. That's a big scope. And rlameiro's question begs a further question. For whom?
<persia> I think if we remind ourselves of the goals, we can probably identify what needs doing better.
<rlameiro> troy_s: for me for instance
<troy_s> rlameiro: Ok. Then I'd say the project is already there. 
<persia> And once we know what needs doing, we can better determine what roles exist, and develop a strategy to staff them.
<rlameiro> not yet
<troy_s> rlameiro: You are a savvy sophisticated type that can knows what a package is, knows how to install Linux, etc.
<rlameiro> ther are things that arent in th US
<persia> And once we have staffed roles, we can handle lots of publicity.  Right not, publicity is only likely to lead to questionable reviews.
<troy_s> ScottL: I think that persia's question is precisely the issue in _much_ of what we do, well beyond Ubuntu Studio.
<rlameiro> Ok, i get persi, without a strong release, we cant put ourself on the wild
<scott__> sorry, had to go upstairs, family too loud
<troy_s> rlameiro: Not just that.
<troy_s> rlameiro: What is 'strong'?
<troy_s> rlameiro: Are you trying to grow an audience?
<rlameiro> yes
<rlameiro> why not?
<troy_s> rlameiro: And if so, from where? If it is to attempt to unify the various media distributions, then that is one audience.
<scott__> i was thinking we could even offer something like icecast or podcast applications
<rlameiro> well, if it is, than be it
<troy_s> rlameiro: If you are thinking bigger, then you inevitably bump into the fact that even the most SAVVY OSX / Windows user is lost with much of what we accept as vernacular.
<persia> troy_s: It's the same question for any domain.  What do we do?  Why?  Why does it matter?  How shall we do it?  But really, let's narrow the focus to the current area of discussion :)
<troy_s> persia: Trying. ;)
<rlameiro> well, i can fram my ide of a future US
<troy_s> persia: Because _delivery_ is pretty important _and_ diverse depending on who that audience is.
<rlameiro> A easy to use, with live CD to test, easy to configure pro settings and witha clean and readable theme
<troy_s> persia: Explaining what an ISO is for example, versus not needing to (if you are borrowing from other distribution audiences for example)
<scott__> rlameiro, but you are thinking audio probably
<rlameiro> about the easy to test  i made a proposal that nobody commented in 3 weeks
<troy_s> persia: I say this because I know a GOOD number of earn-their-living professional audio types that would be UTTERLY lost in the current incarnation.
<scott__> Ubuntu Studio is a multimedia editing/creation flavor of Ubuntu. It's built for the GNU/Linux audio, video, and graphic enthusiast or professional.
<rlameiro> scott__: not only, i think video and processing and openframeworks etc
<scott__> from the website
<troy_s> persia: If you follow my reasoning.
<troy_s> It's an extremely valuable discussion. I'm glad it is happening actually.
<persia> troy_s: Reasonable critique, although I'm unsure if we want that many of that audience in testing: they need post-release stable to do their work, and any testing would have to be *separate*.
<scott__> cory has always maintained that Studio didn't cater to the newbie
<rlameiro> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/ControlsRedesign
<troy_s> persia: Totally agree with you. Each audience brings a certain set of design constraints and some are likely ... unattainable?
<troy_s> scott__: Newbie means different things too. Is it an OSX Newb or a Debian packager type newb?
<scott__> rlameiro, i've wrapped up a few things so I should comment this weekend
<persia> troy_s: I prefer to think not.  Let's call it "hard to arrange".
<troy_s> scott__: Complex as _hell_.
<scott__> BUT, if we had documentation to support these people we have lowered the threshold significantly
<rlameiro> well, there are leves of "noobiness" the distro cant get to
<rlameiro> that is for sure, but there are other things that can be done to help people, for example having network out the box
<scott__> i think a large part of the reticence of our base user is because of this technical knowledge, or lack of, and more documentation would really help us in these cases
<scott__> reticence to help us, that is
<troy_s> persia: Ok. I know in terms of image processing for example, the faults in GIMP are unarrangeable.
<persia> troy_s: I thought some of that got fixed with the 48-bit changes.
<troy_s> persia: Practically for example, you cannot do xxx with it, so there is a certain degree of misleading a particular audience if you choose to attempt to address them.
<troy_s> persia: No. Deep colour is still years away.
<persia> Ugh.  Oh well.
<scott__> we need cinepaint for that, right?
<troy_s> persia: It's an utterly useless app to any serious professional or intermediate grade environment.
<persia> I don't think GIMP targets that group though.
<persia> I think another tool needs to do that.
<troy_s> scott__: Cinepaint is buggy as hell. It _does_ it, but fails miserably in terms of practical 'let's get er done'
<persia> But that requires another tool.
<troy_s> persia: Problem is that GIMP hasn't addressed audience until recently.
<persia> One thing I'm sure about: this is not the right team to develop new tools.
<troy_s> persia: Thanks to some of Peter Sikking's effort.
<persia> Might be the right people, but not the right team.
<troy_s> persia: Hell no. But you follow me when I say that certain things might not be attainable if you blindly profess to be appealing to audience x.
<rlameiro> persia: what tools are you talking about?
<troy_s> persia: I mean, I know in terms of imaging, Linux is laughable. I can't speak for audio, and likely neither can anyone in this forum.
<scott__> are we still framing the question as to what we do?
<rlameiro> troy_s: actually audio its going up in linux exponetially
<persia> rlameiro: new tools being core development of new applications, rather than perhaps building some minor integration utilities (which we've historically done)
<scott__> which is a major misconception in the community IMO (that we do core development of new applications)
<troy_s> rlameiro: Not disagreeing, just saying that saying 'professional audio' without getting a canvas of professionals to evaluate is ... a tad myopic.
<rlameiro> persia: ah ok, but making scripts for configuration and alike are ok, aren't them?
<persia> rlameiro: Absolutely.  Integration is what Ubuntu does, and we're part of Ubuntu.
<rlameiro> troy_s: I have a Degree in Music, and at the moment a 2 year music master
<rlameiro> i think i can speak about it
<scott__> side question: rlameiro do you have access to protools?
<rlameiro> i can askt to some frinds, but yes i can ask for a mac frind, why?
<scott__> that could be argued to be industry standard for professional audio
<rlameiro> scott__: ardour is getting there with mdi on v3
<persia> rlameiro: The key isn't how much we know, it's what we do.  Until we find studios saying "Yeah, that's good" and e.g. accepting ardour session files for mastering, it's too soon to say that we're really doing professional audio.  Note that I know folks who *use* Ubuntu to generate income-producing audio (and we have some in this conversation), but that's not quite the same thing.
<scott__> linux plugins are not nearly a match as proprietary
<rlameiro> and we have JACK that everyone is using ion mac, even the protools user
<scott__> so...we can frame ourselves by removing the professionals?
<scott__> perhaps including the semi-pro
<rlameiro> persia: agreed, but why are we centring audio on studios?????
<scott__> troy_s, certainly has shown that graphics are not professional and we should all know that video isn't pro
<rlameiro> if we center it on the users and musicians, they wil naturally push it up, not the reverse
<persia> rlameiro: That's how the market works.  Note that I'm not saying we don't have great stuff.  My mother uses it regularly, and music is a big part of her profession, but it's a semantic distinction.
<rlameiro> but a studio requires proven tools, and that its impossibl for linux, at least for this time
<persia> And I know lots of studios that *do* use it.  It's just not all the way there yet.
<scott__> it sounds like Ubuntu Studio is going through a "rebranding"
<persia> scott__: Is it?  That's your call.
<rlameiro> Studio its ok
<rlameiro> why would we change it? Studio isnt only the pros, its the little creator at home, its the musician
<scott__> i think it should but in subtle ways and gradually over time
<rlameiro> actually studio is a word that identify a place for reheasal , the recording labels used it to the recording rooms, nothing more
<rlameiro> the name Ubuntustudio is recognized a lot in very diffiicult to penetrate hardcore groups, for intance, puredata users
<scott__> i don't think we should change the name rlameiro, just our focus
<rlameiro> i lost the count of the time i read on puredata mailing list that people used ubuntustudio
<rlameiro> and puredata useres are people comming from very important music schools, composers etc
<scott__> troy_s, you still here?
<rlameiro> they like the idea to have a system with realtime priority and stable audio and processing power to do the job
<rlameiro> sometimes people even answer like, for that kind of patch you will need a rt kernel and linux :D
 * scott__ is going downstairs with the family for a bit, it's bedlam down there, be back in a minute
<rlameiro> well i will stops talkin, lol :D
<troy_s> rlameiro: I am not questioning your ability, but by 'pro' there is 'earn-one's-living' implied, and that means other constraints.
<troy_s> rlameiro: Darnit... persia said exactly my point. Erk.
<ScottL> which point troy_s ?
<troy_s> scott__: Rebranding or actually addressing the core issues (perhaps finally)
<troy_s> scott__: (05:28:50 PM) persia: rlameiro: The key isn't how much we know, it's what we do. [...]
<troy_s> scott__: But I will say that rlameiro is coming around to a very viable audience. ;)
<rlameiro> well, if you look at the puredyne distro
<rlameiro> they are on another things people use in multimedia arts
<ScottL> troy_s, sometimes i'm slow, core issues = what we do?
<rlameiro> things like having pd extende, or processing or arduino etc could help to bring some people that are more savvy in the sence they are a kind of hackers
<rlameiro> well its getting late for me
<troy_s> scott__: The part about that 'pro' label - it doesn't work for pro (likely and there are likely many concrete examples)
<rlameiro> almost 2 am in here...
<troy_s> scott__: But say, university uptake (as rlameiro suggests with the multimedia arts) is certainly viable.
<troy_s> scott__: So it seems that figuring out that _who_ helps to define exactly _what_ needs to be done / solved / negotiated.
<rlameiro> troy_s: i think we would need to go up there
<troy_s> scott__: And why I always harp on audience.
<troy_s> rlameiro: Sorry?
<ScottL> well, yeah, that's kinda why i mentioned what the website says, it's kinda bothered me for a while that something "pro" takes so much knowledge and investment to get the base system functional, troy_s 
<rlameiro> the multimedia arts :D
<troy_s> scott__: MANY of the points of bikeshed evaporate and the direction for MANY complicated questions are almost automatically solved simply by specifying 'who'.
<troy_s> rlameiro: Problem is, it is likely broad.
<ScottL> most of my feeling wouldn't be hurt if Studio was an audio distro ;)
<rlameiro> well, troy_s in the redesign proposal i made, there is a place to install software outside ubuntu repos, untill they dont get there
<troy_s> rlameiro: And if that is the case (say for example, University fine arts department) how easy is it currently to deploy? Realistically of course I'd ask. In what way could say, Ubuntu Studio provide a vital role in that system? How can it more greatly cater to that audience? What is to be learnt?
<troy_s> scott__: I couldn't agree more. :)
<troy_s> scott__: Look at the vast breadth of ability here, and pull a percentage. That clarity might help it out? 
<ScottL> but that is really a reflection on linux rather than ubuntu or studio
<ScottL> are people waiting for me to make a decision?  is that is what is happening?
<troy_s> rlameiro: The _only_ issue I have with much of your thinking is that you are too damn smart.
<ScottL> serious question^^^
<troy_s> rlameiro: You are _not_ the audience in this discourse. You are an exemplary percentage of a percentage of a small percentage. Sense?
<rlameiro> well, the true is that we cant pull out of the hat professioanl quality apps for everyone taste, but we can give  the best linux has
<troy_s> ScottL: I'd stew on it.
<troy_s> rlameiro: And deliver it in the context of a given audience. So full circle, if you go back to the start and actually think about the website based on say - two potential audiences here - I bet the results are TOTALLY different than where you started.
<persia> rlameiro: If software exists, and we can package it, getting it in the repos is trivial.  Don't let that be a factor.
<ScottL> troy_s, i was commenting more on the mechanics of the discussion, i need to meditate on it certainly, walk around a bit by myself and gesticulate with my hands
<rlameiro> yeap, i get you troy_s, bu i also am a teacher, and i understand some of the quirks, and for that, i made that proposal, 80 % of the issiues with US concern at the configuration problem, not to the bad quality of the software that exist on linux
<troy_s> rlameiro: If there is a singular point that Ubuntu Studio can leverage, it isn't in the software (any old Ubuntu works) and it isn't in a custom CD with preinstalls (again, any old package list pumped into synaptic works.) 
<troy_s> rlameiro / ScottL - So figuring out exactly what _value_ Ubuntu Studio can bring to the table (and obviously that is moored in _for whom_) is about the most tricky question that faces the survival of the project.
<persia> troy_s: That statement assumes that we only care about the flavour.  That any old Ubuntu works is in large part because of the work to ensure that Ubuntu Studio works with that software set.
<troy_s> Not easy questions. Not a chance. But I dare say the sort of meandering death that has befallen it has little to do with leadership or such. Rather _vision_.
<rlameiro> persia: the idea is to have the cutting edge easily available via other ways, that the ubuntu repos, there are  people packaging amazing stuff on launchpad, that could be easyly added to the aptlist and people use it
<troy_s> persia: I agree, there are very real dividends that Ubuntu Studio does that people outside of it don't care about but may... for example getting updated multi-media packages done, getting jack up to date, etc.
<persia> Or having a realtime kernel
<troy_s> persia: But in terms of a 'project vision', supplementing Ubuntu proper seems... maybe a position of weakness?
<troy_s> persia: Agree 100%
<persia> rlameiro: I've a philosophical objection to their-party repositories.  I believe that they are inherently poor quality, because that they exist indicates either that someone isn't able to package well enough to have their stuff in the repos, or isn't able to communicate well enough to submit for peer review.
<troy_s> It does seem the project has been sputtering for a long while.
<rlameiro> persia: yeah, maybe, but true that ubuntu community and devs aret tha frindly as they where before
<persia> troy_s: That's why I ask the question What do we do?: flavour is important.  Software quality is important.  Neither works without the other.  I think we hurt ourselves if we define any vision that doesn't have Ubuntu Studio as part of Ubuntu very clearly.
<rlameiro> and the help and assitance to new people is strange
<troy_s> persia: Not going to disagree with you at all.
<troy_s> persia: I'll be blunt. I see a numbers game. I see the need for people and as a result, _greater_ participation.
<persia> rlameiro: Who isn't as freindly as they were before?
<rlameiro> persia: MOTU for example
<troy_s> persia: That is NOT an easy issue though. You need _real_ musicians using the setup to comment etc. Full time deployments at a University maybe. Etc.
<persia> rlameiro: Give me an example so that you aren't insulting me :)
<rlameiro> they dont get thinks like ffado and jackd etc
<persia> We got those in, I thought.
<rlameiro> persia: it wasnt aimed to you
<rlameiro> persia: yes you got it, but how much time it got, and effort?
<troy_s> ScottL: I think you maybe see why everything puffs up in smoke. Since Cory was here, the inevitable questioning of the vision has come to the surface and many have bowed out.
<persia> rlameiro: Yes, but I am in all the categories you speficy, so general application also applies to me.
<rlameiro> i think we should also ask, is really ubuntu team interested in UbuntuStudio or not?
<persia> rlameiro: ffado was broken for a long time: it got in as soon as it worked.
<troy_s> ScottL: It is too many things to too many people based on assumptions, and the net sum result is... well... 10-15 people in a channel.
<persia> rlameiro: And I am the primary individual responsible for keeping jack out of main for a very long time (since 7.04), until now.
<rlameiro> persia: well, my historu was, i wanted to learn to package and then i followed some videos and tutorials, and i got stuck, so i went to motu channel, 
<troy_s> rlameiro: Because their vision is questionable at times. If you value having talented musicians involved in Ubuntu, it SHOULD be important simply for the RT kernel.
<ScottL> troy_s, lol at channel comment
<rlameiro> first answer, look at the tutorial agan.....
<rlameiro> I hame to old to ear that kind of stuff
<persia> rlameiro: That's very unfortunate.  If you encounter that again, please let me know, and I'll go fix it.
<rlameiro> so i quit trying to package
<persia> I understand, and apologise.
<rlameiro> and making python, at least i know where i can get help
<troy_s> ScottL: Big tough questions. You have been following Krita have you?
<ScottL> troy_s, i have not really, but i am aware of it
<troy_s> ScottL: They _just_ recently went through this exact process.
<troy_s> ScottL: Almost verbatim.
<troy_s> ScottL: http://blog.cberger.net/2010/02/27/krita-meeting-2010-â-day-1-2/
<troy_s> ScottL: They made a core design decision. MANY lambasted the decision.
<troy_s> ScottL: But I think you can see how much progress has rolled along in a VERY short time.
<rlameiro> so, maybe my core question is not what do we do, but does ubuntu want us?
<troy_s> ScottL: Read Cyrille's blog.
<persia> rlameiro: I think that's not a useful question.  We are inherently *part* of Ubuntu.  If we, as individuals, choose to do something else, that's not Ubuntu, and so not Ubuntu Studio.
<ScottL> troy_s, i will, probably a few times to be honest as sometime sublettys are lost on me
<troy_s> ScottL: There isn't much subtle there. Just read what they did. And then read the follow up post - namely this one:
<troy_s> ScottL: http://blog.cberger.net/2010/03/02/the-difficult-choice-of-removing-features/
<ScottL> can we agree that we need more community involvement?
<troy_s> ScottL: The comments are telling.
<troy_s> ScottL: I couldn't. :)
<rlameiro> ScottL: yeah :D
<troy_s> ScottL:  Because involvement means an implied 'get something done'. What?
<ScottL> this might also mean remove functionality from Studio then
<rlameiro> testing tsting testing
<troy_s> rlameiro: Testing what? RT?
<ScottL> if the community doesn't use something they are not going to test or comment about it
<troy_s> rlameiro: Having those things defined helps to get them done for certain.
<rlameiro> troy_s: yea
<troy_s> rlameiro: Because I really don't even know what the heck uS does at times. I know it has some involvement with -RT, I know not how much. I know that some packages are a direct byproduct of uS, but I know not which ones. Etc.
<ScottL> i think most of our users on the mailing list post about audio concerns
<ScottL> the other items are generally kipple
<persia> troy_s: I can answer that: US is a flavour of Ubuntu.  There is a (fairly substantive) set of packages in Ubuntu that are not used by any other flavour (including linux-rt), for which we, as a team, accept responsibility.
<rlameiro> troy_s: well, US also gives pre made package of software, that a lot of people wouldnt know about it if it wasnt there :D
<troy_s> ScottL: Ubuntu Studio doesn't (as a disk iso) bring anything to the table for visual work in my mind. Unless I am missing something.
<troy_s> rlameiro: Do you really have evidence to support that? For example, I am well aware of maybe 80% of imaging stuff on Linux. Your audience is already Linux users and they tend to be pretty savvy.
<troy_s> rlameiro: I question the validity of that statement.
<ScottL> troy_s, are you saying that it doesn't offer substantive applications for graphics or video?
<ScottL> if so i would agree
<rlameiro> troy_s: the first time i got to ubuntu studio i found jack, ardour, puredat etc
<troy_s> ScottL: As an actually project, it doesn't deliver need to me as someone interested in imaging etc. It has no value.
<troy_s> rlameiro: Did you know what they were?
<rlameiro> nope
<troy_s> rlameiro: How did you find them?
<rlameiro> i didnt even knew that there were software so good for audio :D
<rlameiro> i found  a ubuntu studio package on the repos seraching for audio stuff, and i decided to install it
<rlameiro> other one, musescore
<troy_s> rlameiro: But you see, that's precisely the point I'd make. You know what a package is, heck you already had Ubuntu installed. Etc.
<rlameiro> i think it goes to ubuntu 7.04
<rlameiro> well, then we need to spread the word
<rlameiro> at least if the project must die, at least dies for a reason, not for giving up on it
<ScottL> it's not dieing, just evolving
<rlameiro> if we keep thinking, we need to have this and that and that to people come
<rlameiro> people come if they want, we just ned to spread the word
<rlameiro> they arent paying a diem, so what do they lose?>
<troy_s> ScottL: I mean heck... who is the project lead now?
<troy_s> ScottL: I know Luke was, Luis was, Cory was, who _is_?
<troy_s> rlameiro: Value is more than money.
<troy_s> rlameiro: And people don't come. I think what... four or five years of EXTREMELY hard effort to make Ubuntu Studio what it is has shown that there are limitations to the Barnum quote.
<troy_s> lol
<troy_s> rlameiro: That said, creating _value_ for an audience with Ubuntu Studio might make it indespensible.
<rlameiro> troy_s: well, can be true, but i will gratly preffer to have a 1 year release cycle tahn 6 months, but we need to, so we maybe need to focus on 2 releases insted of 4
<troy_s> rlameiro: Even if I could spell indispensable.
<ScottL> troy_s, at this point I have volunteered as "acting project lead" given that no one else has expressed desire to lead
<troy_s> rlameiro: I think that gets back to persia's issue with falling out of sync with Ubuntu proper. 
<detrate> providing applications is only half the battle, you need to explain how to use the product you're distributing
<ScottL> studio is too important to me to see it abandonded
<detrate> not having a live version I believe is a huge oversight as well
<troy_s> ScottL: Then the project's fate rests in your hands.
<rlameiro> ScottL: +1
<troy_s> detrate: Might agree with you on that front, but I'm certain that the decision wasn't made lightly.
<ScottL> troy_s, better mine than no one's, that's my reasoning
<troy_s> detrate: There has always been a relatively good set of reasons behind the project's choices... much of it is effort obviously.
<detrate> troy_s: I don't see why a light version of each version wouldn't be possible
<rlameiro> troy_s: what was the reason to dont have a live version?
<detrate> assuming you make meta packages for "art", "music" "video" or whatever the separations are
<troy_s> ScottL: Yep. As long as you make decisions that are based on growth. Makes me think we don't document our conditions for failure in projects and we certainly don't evaluate them enough / document them so that others that follow can at least reference and learn from them.
<ScottL> i had actually thought about wiki pages about applications and decisions we had made and why
<troy_s> rlameiro: I can't answer that. But I know there _was_ one. If you have any faith in the people here, I can also assure you there was a reason and likely a very valid one.
<troy_s> rlameiro: I have seen _many_ brilliant and diligent people wander through here.
<rlameiro> troy_s: i believe, but has the networkmanager decision, maybe now threr is no reason anymore
<troy_s> rlameiro: I have faith that the reason there isn't one was tied to circumstance and vision. That may now be moot.
<troy_s> rlameiro: Agree. Worth evaluating _against_ a set of design constraints. Who? Why? What?
<rlameiro> yeah, it would be a live DVD not a CD
<detrate> looks like they are separated https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/PackageList
<troy_s> rlameiro / ScottL - You guys could likely do much to help this along simply by documenting what the thinking is on the wiki. Maybe involve the mailing list? Try to not fall into the 'everyone' trap etc.
<rlameiro> would need testers for it
 * ScottL is eating dinner with family
<troy_s> There are still some old guard here that know much of the history and can answer questions - Luke (The.Muso) crim.sun, persia, etc.
<rlameiro> troy_s: yeah, that is very helpfull, as you said there are in here very bright people
<persia> No live version is because performance on live inherently sucks because of the way live systems work.  No network manager was because early versions used extra resources and didn't work well with static IPs (which we expected to be common for studio installs).
<troy_s> rlameiro: Damn bright. Make no mistake, Ubuntu Studio has a few extremely well respected folks that lurk here.
<rlameiro> troy_s: what do you do? graph?
<troy_s> rlameiro: Erm... sorry?
<rlameiro> troy_s: what is you area?
<detrate> if you have a livecd running completely off RAM, would there still be an issue?
<detrate> because copying it to RAM is possbile
<rlameiro> detrate: it is not easy to address
<troy_s> rlameiro: Erm... I work full time professionally in the motion picture industry. I do uh... visual creative work(?) when the right project shows its face. blah blah.
<rlameiro> there are realtime capabilities that are lost with it
<detrate> if it's all in RAM, how is this a problem?
<troy_s> See... told you there was a pretty well reasoned reason. Lol.
<rlameiro> at least audio could do that, but true is that puredyne at the moment make that and people doent complain about it
<rlameiro> troy_s: but now, there 2 GB ram, that werent 4 years ago
<rlameiro> dual cor etc
<rlameiro> *core
<troy_s> rlameiro: I'm not disagreeing. If there are people that are capable of giving concrete estimations on it, they are here.
<detrate> you can get a netbook with those specs
<troy_s> rlameiro: There is one of the most prolific and standout audio reps here with _deep_ knowledge of it. There are packagers with massive knowledge and experience. And there are Canonical employees.
<rlameiro> persia: 2gb would be enough for a minimal live system and having some ram for software?
<persia> rlameiro: All-in-RAM means 1) not enough RAM for other things, and 2) there's still the poor filesystem performance inherent in stacked filesystems.
<persia> You could make a livecd.  Some folks wouldn't complain.  Those folks would be uninformed.
<rlameiro> persia: yea but even with full system i ge no more than 300 mb of ram used
<troy_s> rlameiro: The point is, as we sort of started out here with detrate's entrance (which we can thank for this discussion) was that it isn't like there are people here that aren't capable. They are. There are people with a good degree of dedication too. And, on top of all that, are there evil spies that don't want the project to succeed tremendously? I don't think so. So why then, given ALL of the talent and wisdom, is the project c
<persia> But, that aside, let's ask a different question: what benefit do we expect from a liveCD?  What would it gain us?
<detrate> new users
<detrate> "what is this? why should I install it?"
<persia> troy_s: A big part of it is that many of us who have been around for a while are also doing other things, and don't have enough time, and some of those who used to be around aren't any longer.
<detrate> also as a ubuntu user, I was under the impressive all ubuntu "flavors" were live cds as well
<detrate> which may or may not be a valid point, depending on your audience
<troy_s> persia: Yep. But the point I was trying to make is that for people that _do_ have the time, the answers and such are right here.
<persia> detrate: OK, so if the experience differs massively between live and install, how does this help address the second question?  For the first, they would do as well to use an Ubuntu liveCD, aside from the theme.
<persia> troy_s: Oh, surely.
<detrate> Well, I'm not saying a live CD is the answer either.  I'm just identifying problems it cannot address.
<rlameiro> persia: would it be aceptable to making a live version that EXPLICITLY  warns for underperformance, to use just for checking out purpose?
<detrate> I think another solution could be to provide videos of the OS in action
<troy_s> I think it is a great discussion. But it will float off into nothingness if someone doesn't wiki it.
<detrate> because again the questions are: <detrate> "what is this? why should I install it?"
<troy_s> detrate: I'd say many don't likely start there though. If you are looking to Ubuntu Studio, you likely have some idea what it will provide for you.
<troy_s> detrate: Otherwise you go with Ubuntu proper. Follow me?
<detrate> okay, I guess that's the mission statement then
<persia> Making a liveCD is fairly trivial.  Getting it tested it a bit harder.  Justifying it is the hardest part.
<rlameiro> troy_s: do you make themes?
<troy_s> detrate: It isn't like (at least having studied god knows how much analytics data) that people randomly out in the ether and stumble across say, Ubuntu Studio and take it for a whirl on a spare box they have sitting around. 
<troy_s> detrate: If they do, they are already likely savvy enough to know what an ISO is, know how to craft one, know how to partition a drive and know how to get it on there.
<rlameiro> ok, persia is there some ubuntu tool to add a first run kind of tour?
<troy_s> detrate: And that likely isn't an audio / visual artist. Lol.
<troy_s> rlameiro: Erm... I do a bit of design work rubbish. So I guess the technical answer is yes, but I would likely answer no to the simple answer.
<rlameiro> troy_s: lol, do you know who made the ubuntustudio theme?
<detrate> well your homebrew club is all well and good but by having such an attitude, you're sending away the potential clientele of the future that would be gaining you like-minded individuals who will help this project grow.
<troy_s> rlameiro: Yes.
<troy_s> rlameiro: Or I did. 
<rlameiro> ok, why so dark?
<persia> rlameiro: I believe the only similar bit is ubiquity-slideshow-* : we could create a ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntustudio, but I think there's other things to do first (e.g. get a working live image)
<troy_s> rlameiro: I think ScottL has been helming that for the recent term.
<troy_s> rlameiro: That one I can answer
<troy_s> rlameiro: When you speak of intermediate level artist / photography / audio, you are dealing with a specific set of circumstances.
<troy_s> rlameiro: For example, my desktop is entirely 18% middle grey. Boring as hell.
<rlameiro> persia: the idea was for the firs run, to have a place that link to tutorials, to software configuration, and basic stuff to get people going, something a little better than a pdf file on the desktop :P
<troy_s> rlameiro: But it was agreed ages ago that the darkness met a few things - 1) It worked well as a starting point for visual work. 2) It paired well with industrial grade applications.
<troy_s> rlameiro: Problem is again, it's a broad category. You want to survey say, four distinct realms quickly?
<persia> rlameiro: I don't beleive anything like that exists.  The logical place for it would be as an extension to oem-config.
<detrate> you can have cleaner dark themes
<troy_s> rlameiro: Think about going through visual, motion picture, then audio, then... ?
<troy_s> detrate: Cleaner is moot.
<troy_s> detrate: It's aesthetics, and that gets murky quick.
<troy_s> detrate: So either you make a decision that it is a design point (of emotional engagement) or you are strictly utilitarian in an industrial grade sense (hellooo 18% middle grey)
<rlameiro> troy_s: i am not detracting dark themes, i love darkthemes, the problem is tat a lot of times get really dificult to read stuf selected...
<detrate> maybe but there is much more to a theme than you think, in terms of accessibility
<ScottL> an updated website with a newbie "course" or introduction would be great...big red button "Learn about Ubuntu Studio" or similar
<troy_s> rlameiro: I'm just saying that there is a reason there. Or at least _was_ based on prior history. It was also pretty valid.
<ScottL> troy_s,  I will go back and get many of this into the wiki
<rlameiro> ubuntu default teame is more close to studio theme now :D but it easier to read, i am using it now
<troy_s> detrate: Again, having actually looked and studied this sort of thing, that's all about audience.
<troy_s> detrate: There is no such thing as usability until you define the audience.
<detrate> who is your audience by your definition?
<troy_s> detrate: And MANY design decisions are actually sitting on polemical opposite sides of the matter.
<troy_s> detrate: For what?
<detrate> this project
<troy_s> detrate: My desktop? It's me.
<detrate> ubuntu studio, the audience you keep defining
<detrate> okay, so you're speaking about yourself and saying "audience"? I'm confused.
<troy_s> detrate: I don't have one. I have watched it struggle a while now though. I can only say that I firmly believe the _source_ of the struggling (as is Ubuntu propers and every other distribution / software application) is the _inability_ to focus.
<rlameiro> lol
<detrate> okay, well I congratulate you for being able to rise above but there are people that want to do ubuntu as simply as the website says
<troy_s> detrate: I'd say that given free reign of a silly magical poof wand wave, I'd make Ubuntu Studio give up on everything except audio
<detrate> download > install > create
<detrate> but cannot
<detrate> download > install > learn a lot about linux > join the mailing list > patch > read tutorial > cry >create
<troy_s> detrate: And I'd make it entirely about a perfectly turnkey Jack setup everything type of scenario for an independent band to record an album end to end.
<troy_s> detrate: With a secondary class of audience that would be university audio lab deployments.
<troy_s> detrate: From my totally subjective vantage, between those two audiences, I can see a clear area for Ubuntu Studio to deliver some serious value and meet an audience need.
<detrate> you sound like a very focused individual and that's good but don't let that focus be blinders to other worlds that can share, create and grow together
<rlameiro> troy_s: ok, so here whe go, rebranding times
<troy_s> detrate: It doesn't work.
<rlameiro> UbuntuStudio Audio 
<rlameiro> UbuntuStudio Video
<troy_s> detrate: I've been a part of the culture for too damn long and _every_ time I see projects fail
<troy_s> detrate: Or burst into bikeshed
<rlameiro> UbuntuStudio Graph
<troy_s> detrate: Or puff up in wasted energy
<detrate> the project doesn't fail, PEOPLE fail the PROJECT
<troy_s> detrate: It _always_ stems from a lack of that audience.
<troy_s> detrate: Simply incorrect!
<detrate> it stems from sour attitudes of "cannot do"
<troy_s> detrate: Sorry, but try using say, visual tools in a production pipelien.
<troy_s> detrate: The TOOLS FAIL
<troy_s> detrate: THEY FAIL
<troy_s> detrate: Because the developers / project have a lack of audience to deliver those needs.
<troy_s> detrate: It ends up with half baked itus serving _no one_.
<rlameiro> putting it this in other way
<troy_s> detrate: Now before you ride me on that, I will say I know people that RELY on Linux to make _millions_ of dollars and they are _well_ aware of the woes. I know an academy award winning visual effects supervisor that knows it _Extremely_ well.
<rlameiro> does ubuntustudio help people that want to make things with video and graphics?
<rlameiro> troy_s: its a pity the libst they use are closed...
<troy_s> detrate: And I will tell you, the essence - the very core of the problem - is precisely as I have outlines. Not my sort of 'yay look I'm smart solution' but rather an issue that has been clarified for me through long discussions.
<detrate> i don't think the project needs to be perfect and in fact, I'd go as far to say they should expect imperfection as you cannot please everyone.  Perhaps the scope of the project needs to be expanded and refined to suit different needs of the different audiences you wish to attract... nay that are attracted to it.
<troy_s> rlameiro: Some are some aren't. The visual effects pipeline relies on intercommunication so by no fluke, many of the standards we live by were created out of that need in the visual work field.
<troy_s> detrate: You _can_ please a particular audience. That's my point. You can engage them. You can emotionally move them. You can _greatly_ fulfil a need.
<rlameiro> ok audio and multimedia art
<troy_s> detrate: The question is - do we? We as a culture are evolving past 'scratch one's own itch'
<detrate> I think you've been in the community too long to remember what it's like for an outsider
<troy_s> detrate: Because I can't help but ask you given the depth and breadth of talent and dare I say _genius_ around our culture, why do we constantly seem to miss the mark? The proof is in the pudding.
<detrate> says the guy using a linux based operating system
<troy_s> detrate: No... I am _totally_ aware of that new audience member. I am saying _embrace_ their current situation. They aren't us. They come from OSX or Windows, etc. They have a given set of expectations etc.
<detrate> community is there
<troy_s> detrate: We are .0001% of .0001%. We aren't there.
<troy_s> detrate: And believe me, as someone that actually forces themselves to use the tools, they suck.
<detrate> okay, so that's your equivelent to what we refer to as "1337 frag machines" in the gaming world
<troy_s> detrate: To be silly and colloquial.
<detrate> I know, I'm aware, I used the operating system and quick
<detrate> :-P
<detrate> quit*
<detrate> I'm back on my version of ubuntu
<troy_s> detrate: Which?
<detrate> but I'm here in this channel to discuss what attracted me and what made me leave
<rlameiro> was it slack?
<troy_s> detrate: Ubuntu suffers the exact same issues. Wonder why the wallpapers are a mushy blur? That's why.
 * detrate 's sysinfo for 'zentury': Ubuntu 9.10 (karmic) / Linux 2.6.31-20-generic  running GNOME 2.28.0, on a Intel(R)Core2QuadCPUQ6600@2.40GHz at 1600 MHz (4800 MrBougomips),  7953/8002MB RAM from 255 processes;  looking into 3840x1200 pixels powered by a GeForce GTX 275  with HD: 473/1280GB  filled. [ 4.21d up, 1 user,  load average: 0.09, 0.16 ]
<detrate> troy_s: ubuntu has been more stable for me.
<troy_s> detrate: I don't use Ubuntu Studio because it clearly isn't for me. I don't worry about that. I'm happy for it to be what it needs to be.
<rlameiro> detrate: 8GB ram :D
<detrate> rlameiro: needed if I want to have multiple VMs open or multiple versions of a game
<rlameiro> detrate: he he :D
<troy_s> detrate: But I have no clue what it is that it needs to be. Only thoughts and opinions after watching it for gosh knows how long (and idling in here for gosh knows how long)
<rlameiro> well so the issue is wether we need to narrow the scope or not, at least on troy_s poit of view, isnt that?
<detrate> Sorry if I'm out of line but for the audience I had thought Ubuntu Studio was trying to attract, I think ubuntu studio tries to include too much
<persia> detrate: *which* bit is "more stable" with Ubuntu vs. Ubuntu Studio?  For 9.10, they use the *exact same* kernel and base software.
<troy_s> rlameiro: I don't think there is the time / people currently to warrant anything but a reduction in scope. Perhaps that is skepticism on my part.
<detrate> maybe focus on the best tools to include, offer the others available as meta packages.
<troy_s> detrate: I'd actually agree with you. I'd also say that the audience is out of whack with reality.
<detrate> persia: Ubuntu 9.10 vanilla was more stable, there were subtle bugs with applications, I'm not sure on what they were any longer
<troy_s> detrate: And as a result, perhaps there is opportunity there. If your audience is Reindeer and no Reindeer are using it as such, what is the point?
<detrate> maybe I have notes, I'm not sure
<detrate> I'm not sure what point you're trying to make troy_s
<persia> detrate: Since it's the same set of applications, and the same kernel, I'm really curious about that.  Please try to find your notes.
<detrate> okay persia
<troy_s> detrate: But I certainly wouldn't be so myopic as to choose and audience and _not_ try to involve them. We seem very willing to do that in our Libre circles.
<persia> detrate: Thanks.
<rlameiro> detrate: i run 9.10 and it doesn tgive problems
<detrate> it doesn't happen to use a different version of compiz does it?
<detrate> compiz is a huge part of my work flow
<troy_s> detrate: I'm saying there isn't a hope in hell that you should be putting 'pro' in Ubuntu Studio's title. Period.
<detrate> troy_s: I'm not trying to
<troy_s> detrate: And that _that_ audience has always been fictional and never used it. 
<troy_s> detrate: It has always lurked there. Might even be on the page.
<troy_s> May be gone now.
<detrate> Maybe I'm speaking more of people involved in linux / code
<persia> detrate: It's the exact same software in the exact same repositories.  The only difference is the default set of stuff installed.
<rlameiro> So, is it reasonable to send a request for a poll to vote on narrowing US??? to the mailing lists ?
<troy_s> rlameiro: I think the project is in the hands of those that are passionate about it. That likely includes ScottL, yourself, and others that have shown the willingness to linger for extended periods of time.
<rlameiro> troy_s: true, but the user have a word in it
<troy_s> rlameiro: Erm.... audience?
<rlameiro> you just made what you are against at
<troy_s> rlameiro: If your goal is to simply fulfill the needs of the current, then perhaps votes work wonders.
<troy_s> rlameiro: I disagree with voting purely and simply that it creates the illusion of data through randomnimity. Get a plan. Work it out with ScottL maybe and then either push it through or figure out how to better refine it.
<rlameiro> i dont have a goal, i like to share, and sharin opinions is part of it
<troy_s> rlameiro: Sure. But no clear goal will always come back to bite. Pretty sure that between the few passionate folks that there can be some sort of agreement.
<rlameiro> troy_s: i dont like that, thats the way people what pushed away
<troy_s> rlameiro: Is it?
<troy_s> rlameiro: Seems to me that this project was strongest when Cory was pushing the massive rock uphill.
<rlameiro> troy_s: yes
<troy_s> rlameiro: And while I personally may have been of one mind or the other, the results speak for themselves.
<troy_s> rlameiro: Without that unrelenting drive / passion, it does ... this.
<troy_s> rlameiro: And again, certain fantastic ideas / concepts / suggestions might simply be not applicable to the project goals. That's a simple reality.
<rlameiro> troy_s: the passion helps a lot, you have ideas, but you should present it, i didnt like the buttons change, but i had to accept it because MS is the owner of ubuntu, but this is not the case
<rlameiro> we should ear what the user want
<troy_s> rlameiro: I totally disagree. Bugger the current audience. Figure out who the audience is, and listen to _them_.
<troy_s> rlameiro: We just cycle around in the same wading pool of the same people making the same mistakes otherwise.
<rlameiro> and then, maybe we can make the right choice, i am not expert and, franqly, how could i chose what stays and what goes away? just because i dont like something, it doesn't mean it isnt usefull to others
<rlameiro> what people wants is windows troy_s 
<troy_s> rlameiro: That is a horrible approach to design, and yes, there are countless tomes on why it is failure.
<troy_s> rlameiro: You focus on your audience.
<troy_s> rlameiro: The rest solves itself.
<rlameiro> thas is the true, and we cant give them that, and I dont want that also
<rlameiro> so there you have
<troy_s> rlameiro: The _audience_ that is deemed fitting. Not the current.
<scott__> troy_s, yes, we have to separate the current audience from the one we want to strive towards
<troy_s> rlameiro: Gosh... GIMP has plenty of current audience members, but they are so far displaced from where the project needs to go in terms of meeting a professional grade image editor that they _hold it back_.
<scott__> troy_s, and yes, Cory did move mountains, and pushed some people away as well *shrug*
<rlameiro> troy_s: you are comparing very diferent things
<rlameiro> we dont make software, !!!!
<troy_s> ScottL: Yep. There are many ways to achieve things. 
<rlameiro> audience doesnt apply in the same maner
<scott__> but to be honest, the project needed Cory to be the way he is or _it_simply_wouldn't_have_happened
<troy_s> rlameiro: Ubuntu Studio _has_ been making software for quite a while. :)
<troy_s> ScottL: Yep. I remember when he called me when he first sort of took over the stillborn project. Cory is the sole reason the project is even ... well the reason we have anything to discuss.
<rlameiro> ok, programms sorry
<troy_s> rlameiro: I am not saying uS can fix the various upstream issues. But in terms of delivering value - it stands a damn good chance if it can focus.
<scott__> hopefully Ubuntu Studio can eventually have a strong enough foundation and community that such a strong willed person isn't necessary for the project to improve and grow
<scott__> merely an administrator
<persia> Well, let's also give some credit to Dana: we wouldn't even have anything without that initial start (but that's prehistory, and was irrelevant in 2007)
<rlameiro> well, i think we already deliver very good audio stuff, now th other things i dont know
<troy_s> scott__: It's up to you guys now.
<scott__> persia, Dana?  I'm not aware of that person
<troy_s> rlameiro: Just think about how. Is it working? How do you know? Part of design is the follow up with research.
<troy_s> rlameiro: What isn't working for the university audio lab it fellow (making up the scenario, but hopefully you get the idea)
<persia> scott__: The person who started "ubuntustudio" back in Breezy, and did a lot of the initial work (with me) to get everything working with a common version of the jack libraries, etc.  That was exclusively audio related.
<troy_s> rlameiro: Krita, with the new vision, actually gets feedback from talented artists now.
<troy_s> rlameiro: Like David Revoy etc.
<scott__> persia, oh wow, that is _way_ back  i've read the mailing list pretty far back, but i don't think it goes that far back
<troy_s> rlameiro: And they listen.
<troy_s> persia: Yes... what was his name?
<persia> scott__: That project ceased activity before the mailing lists.  Cory is largely responsible for the mailing lists.
<scott__> if we are talking about minimizing scope, I think that should include the audio apps as well, clean out some cruft that no one uses
<rlameiro> ok, but to someone tell something to us, we fist need to have that someone, and for that we need general awareness, a website
<scott__> jackbeat has been broke for two cycles and no one has complained or filed a bug
<persia> I want to say "Dana Olsen" but launchpad disagrees with me.
<rlameiro> scott__: there could be different packages, maybe
<troy_s> rlameiro: The website is clothing.
<rlameiro> troy_s: maybe, but for audio users sells
<rlameiro> that is going after an audience
<scott__> but attractive clothing attracts a mate sometimes
<rlameiro> they use macs because they are fashion, 
<scott__> that and big packages
<rlameiro> troy_s: dont be wrong, it is true
<troy_s> Figure out who. Don't guess.
<troy_s> scott__: Very big packages. Ubuntu Studio has them.
<rlameiro> I dont guess, i know a lot of them
<troy_s> rlameiro: I think you are actually on point.
<troy_s> rlameiro: But we guess too much as a general rule. Caution doesn't hurt.
<rlameiro> they use the same software, but want to have beatifull things, so they care for pretty things
<detrate> I literally just purchased a windows 7 laptop and a numark controller because I thought setup would be painless compared to linux but this isn't turning out so true.
<scott__> troy_s, lol, someone jumped on my double entendre
<troy_s> rlameiro: Which is why I was fond of say, University audio labs - you might be able to get one and test like hell. Or an independent band to test and work with. Approach them.
<rlameiro> they care on blogs to look, they have smartphones to read news and videos etc
<rlameiro> so yes the look is inportant, what do you wanted me to make, to comission a worlwide census on US?
<troy_s> detrate: When Free Software works, it tends to work _extremely_ well in some instances (depending on project of course) - hell look at Ubuntu printing. I knock much of what Ubuntu does design wise, but printing is... well exceptional.
<troy_s> detrate: In terms of broad strokes to plug in and print. There are obvious issues with margins etc.
<detrate> yes, I favor free software :)
<persia> troy_s: We owe huge volumes of that to the OpenPrinting project, and the OpenPrinting people directly maintain the packages in Ubuntu.
<troy_s> rlameiro: LOL. No. But even something that looks 'simple' like 'looks good' is totally utterly complex and complicated. Aesthetics are cultural, based on age demographics,e tc.
<rlameiro> well, thas you job, not mine
<rlameiro> i am a musician :D
<rlameiro> you are the designer
<troy_s> rlameiro: So it's just a mountain of complexity. I'd strive for as little complexity as possible. _Maybe_ pairing Ubuntu Studio down makes sense in that aspect. Not my choice nor my ability to properly evaluate it.
<troy_s> rlameiro: I'd just defer to wiser folks. In this case, probably persia. Lol.
<rlameiro> persia: is 64studio team making some money of it?
<holstein> is 64studio doing anything?
<ScottL> troy_s, i want you to know that you are an awesome resource :)
<holstein> seems dead
<ScottL> hi hostein
<holstein> ScottL: hey
<persia> rlameiro: I believe 64studio did make some money, yes.  I don't know if they are now.  The person who I interacted with the most at 64Studio now has a different job.
<troy_s> ScottL: Erm, I'd hope that anything you have gleaned has little to do with me. Most of what I know others knew long before me.
<ScottL> persia, it wasn't Daniel was it?
<persia> I believe the majority of monies came from building custom installs for hardware manufacturers, although I may be mistaken.
<persia> ScottL: Nope.
<rlameiro> would it be possible to merge? (actually a outher space question:p)
<persia> rlameiro: I'm not sure there's a point, really.
<ScottL> I would almost say that the Ubuntu Studio project, at this point, violates the Linux creed...do one thing and do it well
<persia> At one point, 64Studio had an Ubuntu edition available.
<rlameiro> persia: just mind traveling :D
<rlameiro> http://www.64studio.com/press_release_pdk
<troy_s> rlameiro: As a masters in music, you should have university connections. If you can get lab space, that's a win. There's the start of a very useful audience.
<rlameiro> i made a room of old 233mhz macs runing xubuntu :D
<rlameiro> lol
<rlameiro> i will push open source ebates there, dont worry :D
<troy_s> rlameiro: There is a good chance that some of the diligent folks in here could see some sort of monetary reward via support contracts.
<persia> But 99% of the 64Studio patches were merged by debian-multimedia (a few folks were in both) and were imported into Ubuntu, and used by Ubuntu Studio.  Conversely, lots of patches here were merged into debian-multimedia (although nobody seemed active in both teams), and were merged into 64Studio.
<holstein> persia: 64studio 3.s beat is based on hardy
<persia> holstein: Thanks for the specifics: I didn't remember precisely which.
<holstein> 3.x beta*
<holstein> its been beta longer than gmail was though ;)
<ScottL> hopefully they have updated packages compared to hardy :/
<rlameiro> holstein: do you still have 64studio?
<holstein> nah
<rlameiro> ok
<holstein> i hang in #64studio though
<rlameiro> and how is it?
<holstein> dead
<holstein> no topic
<holstein> i mostly just grab folks for #opensourcemusicians
<rlameiro> so is 64studio dead?
<holstein> as far as i can tell it is
<rlameiro> well, more responsability for us
<rlameiro> now is just musix and ubntustudio
<rlameiro> and puredyne
<holstein> i found a page about a lucid based 4.x version
<rlameiro> ahh, wait
<holstein> puredyne is not installable
<persia> 64Studio is still represented in a number of shipping products.
<holstein> OR it is, but it doesnt like it
<rlameiro> persia: yea, but as a user POV
<persia> I always felt they were primarily targeting OEMs, personally, and suspect they are easily revived if someone offers them a good contract.
<persia> rlameiro: I don't think the 64Studio products were ever specifically intended for end-users to personally install.  That it worked, and that folks helped each other was a bonus.
<persia> I may be mistaken, of course
<rlameiro> ah ok, I never used it
<rlameiro> so well, for intalable one we have musix and US
<holstein> persia: i offered to pay
<holstein> when i had a GCC error
<rlameiro> lol
<rlameiro> GCC error?
<detrate> damn, I can't even download driver updates for this software because it's telling me the serial number I'm reading directly off the package is incorrect
<detrate> for this hardware* rather
<holstein> GNU C compiler = GCC
<rlameiro> holstein: yeah i know, 
<holstein> OH
<holstein> hmm
<holstein> i forget what it was
<rlameiro> but what errr, on the compiler or the package?
<rlameiro> ah ok
<holstein> package version i think
<persia> Looking at musix, I expect there's scope for collaboration, but somewhat limited by language.
<holstein> i had the same error with intrepid
<holstein> not too long after that
<rlameiro> persia: i speak portuguese and spanish
<holstein> musix looks nice
<holstein> and the AVlinux guy is not interested?
<persia> rlameiro: Yes, but I think musix is primarily developed in spanish, and Ubuntu in english.  I'm unsure if all the musix devs would want to be Ubuntu devs for that reason.
<holstein> i saw an email to him or something
<rlameiro> well, we never know, maybe
<persia> I do suspect that we probably want to share patches, but we'd be best citizens if we both did that by pushing them to debian-multimedia
<rlameiro> well, they use debian
<persia> Yes, as do we, which is why I suggest that collaboration model.
<rlameiro> so what we can do? invite them to come here an talk about it?
<rlameiro> to know how do they do things?
<rlameiro> well, they have an IRC channel at #musix
<holstein> i use to hang there
<rlameiro> I will hang in there to try to get them talk
<holstein> more than a few speak english
<persia> Well, what do we seek to achieve by collaboration?
<persia> I think we can share patches well.
<rlameiro> I will take a knife and thereat them
<persia> I'm unsure we have a shared vision.
<rlameiro> lol
<rlameiro> for what i saw, they have some configuration things on a controlpanel
<rlameiro> maybe we can use some of the scripts theu have and vice versa
<rlameiro> well, i need to go
<rlameiro> its 3:40 am
<rlameiro> I will suffer tomorrow....
<rlameiro> cya all guys
<holstein> rlameiro: laterz..
<ScottL> well, it certainly has been an active evening in the IRC tonight (or day for some)
<ScottL> tomorrow i'll start sifting through the logs and get things into the wiki
<ScottL> persia, another argument to downsize the project scope is losing a tech lead
<persia> I don't think that's a good argument.
<persia> Without a tech lead, we can't do technical stuff well, and the project is essentially technical at core.
<persia> That said, I'd accept downsizing the project because we have a less capable tech lead, but we need a tech lead.
<persia> And although I know in advance I don't have time to do it, I'm very much up for advising someone.
<ScottL> well, yes, you make my argument better than i did
<detrate> I think you should offer meta packages for people that want to fiddle with such focused programs you decide to cut from the scope
<ScottL> thinking back on the short time i have been involved, its easy to see where "app creep" happened and how we violated our "vision" if there ever really was one
<ScottL> detrate, i don't think that meta packages will be a problem
<detrate> cool :)
<ScottL> persia, how do you feel about including some KDE apps?  the additional libraries involved, etc?
<persia> ScottL: I don't think the cross-environment theming looks nice at all.
<persia> We already ship a number of qt-based applications.
<detrate> I can cross environment theme
<detrate> trying to find a good screenshot for you
<detrate> maybe not everyone's cup of tea for the color choice but I've got it across 2 versions of kde and gnome http://pics.nexuizninjaz.com/images/1qkpjnofu0zm3yjwgp6.png
<detrate> I also found my work in progress mockup for the website http://pics.nexuizninjaz.com/images/1bukpfe901b6l04x9zin.png
<ScottL> detrate, i know you didn't create it, but i have to say that i loathe that unfocused blob thing
<detrate> in which screenshot?
<detrate> the current ubuntu studio website?
<ScottL> yeah, right side of the second picture
<detrate> yeah
<detrate> I propose a homepage much like I created for www.alientrap.org/nexuiz
<detrate> clear mission statement, quick catch line, video
<ScottL> i have seen one unfocused, blog thing that i did like, but it was very color specific like golden raindrops or something, think it was even on the ubuntu studio submitted artwork
<holstein> detrate: nexuiz kicks ass
<detrate> some more screenshots and information, perhaps a web 2.0 style footer with more links to resources
<detrate> holstein, we have unfortunately split from alientrap aka lee vermeulen
<detrate> it's a mixed bag of feelings but the new project is xonotic (www.xonotic.org)
<ScottL> detrate, since widescreens are pretty prevailant is it tenable to leverage the left side of the screen for a flyout menu to save vertical real estate on the screen?
<detrate> he is an example of what having a single person in charge, no matter who little they are around, can do to an open-source project
<detrate> a side menu is possible
<detrate> I'd have to remake that template
<detrate> I don't believe I have the sources
<ScottL> i'm not saying that is the answer or direction, just exploring ideas
<persia> detrate: What's the big ã« for?
<detrate> oh, well in well written XHTML that's not really a big deal to change anyway
<detrate> persia: kanji for strength
<persia> Looks like katakana "ka" to me :)
<detrate> similar
<detrate> but it's li
<persia> æ¹ is how I usually see "power"
<ScottL> http://i40.tinypic.com/25zlfo0.jpg   this is the golden blob thing that I didn't loathe, heh
<detrate> ahh
<detrate> I don't really know why it was chosen, a lot about that game lacked direction but it was fun none-the-less
 * persia suspects it's wrong for amusing and historical reasons
<detrate> yeah original artist screwed up the spelling, vermeulen didn't care
 * ScottL put his window button on the left last week, my universe has failed to implode
<detrate> it was really just a failed experiment that lordhavoc convicned him to release under GPL
<detrate> I came in as a player/fan, helped rebrand / market the game, then began contributing in various other ways as I enjoyed growing with the game and other contributors
<ScottL> persia: i was thinking more about narrowing the scope:
<persia> Focus is good.
<TheMuso> In light of the jack discussion on the pkg-multimedia list, who here thinks we need a specification/session at UDS to discuss jack2 for maverick?
<persia> Will we have enough attendees to make it worthwhile?
<ScottL> that fact that you posed the question, TheMuso, suggests that we should
<persia> I'd be happy to attend such a session.
<TheMuso> persia: That is a good question.
<TheMuso> I think that those of us who are at UDS and who care about it, discuss it when we have a chance. Its not something that concerns Ubuntu proper.
<TheMuso> i.e we don't need a spec for it.
<persia> That's my thought.  Otherwise it will just be the same collection of folks saying "Hrm, yeah, well, let's see what Debian does."
<persia> And since we failed to catch free last time (when he was at UDS), I'm guessing we're even less likely to be successful this time.
<TheMuso> heh right.
<persia> I believe the results of the session would be: 1) migrate to jack2, 2) recompile everything just in case, 3) add some DBus glue to improve the case where both JACK and pulse are present.
<TheMuso> yep
<TheMuso> and 4) consider tying jack into rtkit.
<persia> That is, unless Debian manages to prepare the virual solution that allows jack1/jack2/tschak to work in parallel.
<ScottL> i thought we were moving to rtkit anyway
<persia> And in that case, I think the answer for us is the same.
<persia> (jack1 is hard-frozen, tschack looks nifty, but raw)
<ScottL> persia, re: narrowing scope  - even beyond limiting to audio, we could even focus on, say, robust 64 bit machine as baseline, adjust optimal settings and set this as our baseline
<ScottL> then we can document variances for the next few common use cases
<ScottL> in lieu of trying to present something for everybody
<persia> Are we out of 32-bit users?  32-bit support seems to have historically been a common request.
<detrate> we can integrate the poll into the website, does ubuntu studio have a forum?
<ScottL> aye detrate it does
<detrate> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio -- I don't see it here
<ScottL> persia, no, i don't think we are out of 32 bit users, but i would expect it to be so in the future
<ScottL> http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=335   detrate
<ScottL> persia, i am currently a 32 bit user, but the prices of new machines coupled with loss of -rt kernel might have some bearing on this
<persia> There's a linux-rt in the archives.
<persia> I don't think it's going away.
<persia> abogani has an open applicaqtion to be able to upload it directly.
<detrate> also gathering a list of recommended hardware would be nice if one doesn't already exist
<ScottL> the linux-rt is the 2.6.31 kernel i believe and i thought the kernel team didn't want to support it, if abogani's application is accepted will that mean he will provide and maintain the i386 -rt kernel?
<ScottL> "kernel team didn't want to support it"   it = i386 -rt kernel
<persia> I presume so.  He does it in his PPA now.
<persia> And he tries to support the in-archive kernel, but currently needs to have his uploads sponsored.
<ScottL> well, that's good news, but besides me original point of picking a baseline and tailoring audio for that baseline
<ScottL> detrate, a list of recommended _could_ be gathered, but it certainly wouldn't be an be-all-end-all list of supported hardware
<detrate> yes but it would be helpful in attracting users
<detrate> I still haven't gotten my controller working in windows yet >_<
<ScottL> oh, i sincerely agree
<ScottL> bleargh, i have nine performance reviews to complete at work before the end of this week and way too much production work to keep up with also :(
<ScottL> i don't want to go to work tomorrow
<TheMuso> lol
<persia> ScottL: My advice is to not spend time on US tomorrow, just to clear up the mess.  As much as I admire the work you've been doing, you need to stay funded :)
<scott__> i still need to do a wiki for abogani about the kernels and review and comment on rlamerio's controls redesign still, so it will probably take the rest of the week during breaks and lunch to review the logs and place it into wiki format
<scott__> i won't be focusing too much on this mess during week, not actively really
<ScottL___> persia, TheMuso - i have sent you an email with my paper attached
<TheMuso> ScottL___: thanks
<ScottL___> thank you TheMuso (and persia), i realize both of you are rather busy and i greatly appreciate your time to review it
<persia> Will read.
<ScottL___> please note that i didn't format or clean up the appendix at this time, i felt it was more important to get it to you as i've taken long enough already
 * ScottL___ is putting son into his bed and doing the same
<astraljava> Heh, interesting read, the backlog of last night I mean. Especially loved detrate calling Troy an asshole :D
<astraljava> But I must agree with Troy, uS needs to focus.
<astraljava> Audio only... sounds scary, but might be the thing.
<astraljava> If uS cannot offer any value to the graphics or video side, then they must go.
<astraljava> On the other hand, if uS is to let go the 'pro' audience, then does it matter if those areas are still represented?
<astraljava> Looking forward to any other public debates on the matter.
<persia> astraljava: The issue is that were struggling for good application suites for video/graphics.
<astraljava> persia: I've understood as much. I'm just pondering whether they need to be offered at all, if there's no added value.
<persia> Hrm?  Nobody is suggesting dropping stuff from the repositories.
<persia> it's just whether the "pro" label is applied.
<astraljava> persia: No I'm not suggesting dropping stuff from the repositories, just what are the defaults in a new uS install.
<astraljava> persia: I understand completely that labeling anything 'pro' is difficult.
<persia> So, it's all about labels.
<persia> Seed maintenance is trivial, and comes down to the "if someone cares" model.  If someone cares, then we can have a seed and a task.
<persia> It's meaninglessly easy to have that included on the DVD.
<astraljava> persia: I think so.
<astraljava> persia: Labels, and the groups of artists we want to market our product.
<persia> Sure.  Audience.  If there exists a set of video/graphics artists who find ubuntustudio useful, and there is a common set of tools that meet their needs, then it can be supplied.
<persia> The trick is identification of that set of folks and that common set of tools.
<persia> And assuring that there is overlap between that group and the set of folks willing to do testing, etc.
<astraljava> True.
<jussi> Problem with uS atm is we have taken the shotgun approach.
<jussi> spray wide and you might hit something...
<jussi> as everyone is saying, we need to focus. 
<persia> Just to be clear: lots of good things have been hit with that approach so far, but it takes a lot more effort to keep shooting blindly.
<jussi> persia: true. but we have a very limited number of contributors. hence the focus thing. so either focus or recruit...
<persia> I think "both" is the correct answer.
<ScottL> it might be fortunate that this conversation is happening during the tail end of an LTS release, otherwise we might lose the momentum
<abogani> What I could say from an external point of view (because I'm an industrial user and not an artist) is that Studio want do too much. And what it is worst  without strong guidelines. We should do less things but in a *very* better way. If someone is interested on my POV, obviously. :-)
<abogani> I supsect than if Studio continue in this way to do thing sooner or later it died.
<abogani> s/died/the project will die
 * abogani think it meanwhile he listen "The Scientist"...
<ScottL> abogani, it's funny that so many people had very similar feelings but no one really said anything :/
<detrate> including inkscape, gimp and image magick would be my top 3 choices for install on the graphics side of things
<abogani> ScottL: This is an other reason why we should don't let it go unnoticed
<detrate> oh and blender, duh
 * abogani is wondering what is the best video editor at the moment...
<detrate-> maybe LIVES
<detrate-> best is a relative term
<detrate-> stability wise, I thought LIVES was the best
<detrate-> interface wise, I thought kdenlive was the best... unfortunately, it's also one of the most likely to crash
<abogani> detrate: Thanks!
<detrate-> don't bother with jashaka
<detrate-> afaik that project is dead
<abogani> detrate-: jashaka don't was an sound editor ?
<detrate-> sound? you were asking for video
<abogani> detrate-: Sorry my mistake.
<scott-work> openshot is also an up and coming video editor and is seeing metric tonnes of development
<scott-work> i think jokosher is the sound editor/recorder
<scott-work> and jashaker is the video editor
<abogani> Ahhhh Your are right. :-) ~ listening beautiful Gabriel's Oboe
<detrate-> ahh
<detrate-> well jashaker is dead I believe
<rlameiro> hello thee
<rlameiro> *there
<rlameiro> I have already installed AMD64 RC
<rlameiro> but i cant install network manager from the cd....
<holstein> rlameiro: is wicd on the CD ?
<rlameiro> the problem is that it doesnt let you
<holstein> OH
<holstein> its on there
<holstein> i see
<rlameiro> i commented all the internet repos, and only left the cd line, and made an apt-get update
<rlameiro> when i try to instaqll it doednt let me
<rlameiro> also, when i insert the cd it should prompt to me to add it as a source
<rlameiro> but it didnt, however i have already a duplicate cd entry on the gui that adds the sources, so i dont get it...
<rlameiro> everything elese worked fine as it should on the install
<detrate> holler
#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-04-21
<rlameiro> hey
<ScottL> hi rlameiro 
 * ScottL is going for a walk with the family
<detrate> anything more stable than mixxx available?
<holstein> is that the DJ thing?
<holstein> ive used internet DJ console
<holstein> its old, but it seemed stable
<holstein> and it streams to icecast
<holstein> MIXX is cross-platform though
<holstein> thats kinda nice
<holstein> when trying to migrate folks
<detrate> yeah, my only problem is I can't see only of the track wavs and it seems to crash on me after ~10 minutes
<TheMuso> Mixxx's problem with stability is that it uses PortAudio for cross-platform audio access.
<detrate> ahh I see
<detrate> I just tried developing a midi mapping for my controller but it seems buggy
<detrate> the one that is with it from version 1.6.2 has it's faults but it actually seems more stable than the one I created with the wizard
<rlameiro> TheMuso, i am talking at one of the musix devs
<rlameiro> he is interested in collaboration
<TheMuso> rlameiro: ah ok
<rlameiro> TheMuso, what do you think we can start with?
<TheMuso> rlameiro: I don't know.
<rlameiro> ok
<persia> holstein: terminatorx is another tool to do that, although differently featured than mixxx.
<holstein> mixxx seems to have a following too
<holstein> or some mojo somehow
<scott-work> if anyone wants to test the RC ISO for amd64 that would be really great     :)    I'll send an email to the -users list as well
<scott-work> detrate:  can a wordpress home page/front page (whatever the proper nomenclature is) have a music player ala myspace?
<detrate-> certainly
<detrate-> I've created this wordpress blog for my friend www.mazzik.net
<detrate-> it uses 2 types of players
<detrate-> but there are more
<detrate-> there the single mp3 inline style
<detrate-> and in the footer one that aggregates from all uploaded music files
<scott-work> can it have one that automatically starts playing with a button for skipping to the next song?
<scott-work> http://members.cox.net/travel.site/web-tracker/jukesharess.gif
<scott-work> ignore the stupid rap guy on the image, first one to come up on google image search
<detrate-> sure you can get it work with any flash player
<scott-work> detrate, the goal would be to feature user created/submitted work...how cool would it be to have your song on a website that people around the world frequent routinely?  I think pretty damn cool myself ;)
<detrate-> yeah, that's cool
<scott-work> after i'm through listening to The Misfits i'll listen you your friend's music
<detrate-> :-P -- most of that is just him practicing doing live mixes
<detrate-> I just installed a plugin for firefox that puts my tabs in a treeview on the side
<detrate-> seeing if I like it any better
<detrate-> been doing that in my text editor and so far it's been helpful
<detrate-> takes a second to get used to it
<detrate-> but this has nested collapsable trees, which is pretty kickass
<scott-work> lol, yeah, i can see how it take a little bit to get used to (at least i think i can visual it)
<detrate-> https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/5890
<detrate-> so for the user submission, I'd recommend using contact form 7 http://ideasilo.wordpress.com/2008/12/11/file-uploading-and-attachment-with-contact-form-7/
<detrate-> here, this is actually a better reference http://contactform7.com/2009/11/24/file-uploading-and-attachment/
<detrate-> though, creating your own plugin isn't that hard either
<scott-work> detrate-: i bet you felt slightly confused the other night, sorry about that
<detrate-> I know people can get protective of their open-source communities
<detrate-> I'm just trying to contribute in areas that involve my expertise
<scott-work> and i want to tell you that your contribution is greatly appreciated, sincerely
<scott-work> it is uncommon lately for cory to be on IRC and troy has his pet peeves about open source communities so the resulting discussion explosive was like a recessive gene ;)
<scott-work> that said, i think finally and definitively identifiying Ubuntu Studio's goals, audience, and mission statement will help the project tremenduously, that is at least my opinion
<scott-work> so troy should probably be thanked for his part, although it was pretty damn funny when you called him an ass :D
<detrate-> Well, I understand where he's coming from but I don't think it's appropriate he blaze the big guns when I'm just trying to offer help.  I don't claim to know everything about this project but I do have experience in promoting projects and social marketing.
<persia> detrate-: Really, the issue is more that we're still working out kinks in our own answers to basic questions: it's very much not about the help you're offering.
<detrate-> and I do feel like ubuntu studio is something I'd be interested in using on a daily basis if it was more refined in areas more attractive to people with backgrounds like myself.
<detrate-> but as it stands, it's like installing ubuntu with extra packages and missing content (themes)
<detrate-> and many of the packages do me no good... but I do touch in all areas ubuntu studio has to offer, some more than others.
<detrate-> I do consider myself a power user in linux and prefer console over gui for many applications. Heck, I'm chatting in weechat now and I use mocp as my music player :)
<detrate-> but even identifying with this class of users, I feel like uS isn't giving me very many benefits by squeezing so much in without explaination and ripping out other things I liked about ubuntu.
<detrate-> making the community of users almost appear as elitist
<persia> The trick is the balance of things.
<persia> For instance, I argued strongly against compiz for a long time, because on many people's audio-tuned systems with limited onboard video (big graphics cards cause noise and EMF) it required significant CPU usage.
<persia> This ends up being perceived as a feature-removal by some (and really anyone who doesn't fall into that use case).
<persia> But it enables folks that need it.
<detrate-> well, that sounds like a problem in transparency of decisions
<persia> Indeed.
<detrate-> which is something that effects the livecd situation as well
<detrate-> I'd highly suggest making this known on the new homepage
<detrate-> "no livecd (read why)" type thing
<persia> The issue is that the folks who made the decisions don't necessarily have time to contribute just now.
<detrate-> this is why I put a 'web team' in project requirements
<persia> Given a list, I can probably explain some of them, as I've been involved in a lot of the debates, but I very much don't know of any list
<scott-work> these are the types of topics I would really like to address with the community with a news section on the new website or by getting my memberhsip approved and pushing my blog to planet ubuntu
<persia> Heh, yeah.
<detrate-> a new website won't do you much good unless you have people interacting with it and social media
<detrate-> well this list should be in the wiki for certain
<scott-work> which list?
<scott-work> these topics we just mentioned just now?
<detrate-> of decisions that might seem to be negatives
<detrate-> questionable decisions*
<scott-work> we could make a FAQ on the wiki with them (that's acutally a good idea)
<detrate-> yes, wikis are great
<detrate-> when well managed
<scott-work> ours hasn't been, although i did update the organization for ours on help.ubuntu.com but it still needs lots of love
<detrate-> you should consider creating an organizational structure
<detrate-> if one doesn't already exist
<detrate-> it looks pretty loose from what I can tell
<scott-work> entropic
<detrate-> but having coordinators in each area will help ease communication lines and keep contributions / user input on track
<scott-work> unfortunately we are in a chicken <-> egg situation, we don't have community help because we don't have the infrastructure, we don't have the infrastructure because we don't have community help
<persia> Having coordination would do that well enough for now.  Having per-track coordination presupposes sufficient volume to need it.
<scott-work> persia: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Sandbox#Ubuntu%20Studio%20-%20Core%20Issues
<scott-work> some of my thoughts on going forward
<persia> I think we wouldn't do best to create a complex org chart, and then have mostly empty roles, or have them all filled by ScottL :)
<detrate-> starting with outlining organization and workflows in the wiki will be quite benefical
<persia> ScottL: Right, and I still have to reply to your email :)
<detrate-> well, understanding your assets is very important
<detrate-> when you see visually that scott is stretched across so much, you can begin filling spots
<scott-work> no rush persia, just keeping you in the loop
<persia> ScottL: A few missing requirements (imo): tone generator, drum machine, sequencer.  I think we can drop "midi (?)" for being too vague.
<scott-work> detrate-: that's kinda funny because I think persia and luke do WAY more than i, at least they are capable of it when considering expertise, i've only been with the group for six months now
<detrate-> well, you sound like the coordinator on the front lines
<persia> And as much as I think it's not best, PiTiVi is probably the best choice for the video editor, because the desktop team also cares for it.
<scott-work> persia: i left the midi there because i thought it was needed (user mail list has many midi users) but i don't use midi so i don't know which to suggest
<scott-work> detrate-: i try
<persia> ScottL: We have very good driver support already, and after that it's on a per-application basis, so not something separate.
<scott-work> oh vey, how could i miss hydrogen :(
<persia> ScottL: So, e.g. mixxx, terminatorx, ardour, sequencer, tone generator, drum machine, softare effects, etc. all use MIDI.
<detrate-> http://www.tevine.com/projects/voteitup/ << you can crowd source these sort of decisions to an extent
<persia> heh, yeah.  s/drum machine/hydrogen/ :)
<detrate-> not sure if you want users having much say in packages though
<detrate-> in nexuiz/xonotic we did a similar thing in our development system on features / patches / bugs
<persia> There's three decent sequencers: seq24 (mostly live applications), muse, rosegarden
<persia> And all sorts of tone generators.
<persia> detrate-: http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com is the Ubuntu-wide forum for such vote-count ideas.
<detrate-> and ubuntu studio is under this wing?
<detrate-> I'm not really clear on the project relationship
<detrate-> which is another good thing to clarify on the about us page
<persia> detrate-: Ubuntu Studio is one flavour of Ubuntu.  We're entirely part of the Ubuntu project, and share the same software.
<detrate-> okay
<persia> That said, we have control over which bits of software we install by default, we can patch or adjust software to meet our needs, we can add new software, and the rest of the Ubuntu project solicits our advice when dealing with software we maintain.
<scott-work> and to add more of a twist, we can upload software from the Debian project
<scott-work> which is uber-ly helpful
<persia> Well, the entire Ubuntu project is based on Debian :)
<persia> But yeah, we rely immensely on the work of the debian-multimedia team to keep things in shape.
<detrate-> So is it true that you plan to cater towards artists as well or only serious tech people atm?
<scott-work> not to be oblique, but can you quantify 'artists'?
<detrate-> I mean it in a pretty general way but this is really just a segway to a question about themes and preinstalled packages
<detrate-> because as a artistic linux user, I really like tweaking my color settings with gnome-color-chooser
<persia> We can install an arbitrary number of themes, but we try to keep the size of the images down (because of download times), so tend to only install the few that are needed for the install.
<persia> Users can trivially install more themes post-install.
<detrate-> and I'd be happy to contribut gnomecc themes if they are being accepted
<persia> Putting themes in the archive is easier, and can be done, but fitting them on the DVDs is tricky.
<detrate-> well gnomecc files are pretty lightweight
<detrate-> they are just meta files
<detrate-> but obviously require gnome-color-chooser :-P
<scott-work> why is that persia ?
<detrate-> they are ~16kb
<persia> ScottL: Because of download speeds and space on the image hosting server.
<persia> ScottL: So anything that's on the DVD should have a good reason to be there, and meet a specific goal.
<scott-work> sound advice
<persia> I must be off for a while.  If there's a list of questions, I'll try to answer more when I next have some time.
<scott-work> i'd say then that we have many things on the disc that don't really have a good reason since many applications probably aren't used by our users
<detrate-> +1
<persia> We should probably remove some of those :)
<detrate-> http://gnomecc.sourceforge.net/screenshots.html
<persia> If we somehow manage to get below 700MB, we win.
<scott-work> persia: did you have any comment on the target audience? too narrow, not narrow enough, not defined enough?
<detrate-> you also may want to consider custom default content, like a project for rosegarden as an example.
<scott-work> persia: i don't know package sizes off the top of my head, do you think we could actually achieve 700mb?
<scott-work> detrate-: i have that also on my list, at least one of several types, but that doesn't mean it will happen though :(   but again, that is a good way to encourage community participation
<detrate-> 1.4-1.5gb
<detrate-> scott-work: yes but see, letting these dreams die is the problem.
<detrate-> document them in the wiki
<detrate-> delegate the work
<scott-work> they aren't dying, i have written a paper with them in their and i have asked a few people to review it before making it available publically
<scott-work> s/their/there    -    arrrgghhh
<detrate-> oh, well that's good then :D
<persia> ScottL: The audience target seems reasonable to me: it's not terribly detailed, but we aren't a team building 10 archetypical users and ensuing that the entire experience works for all of them: we're just a team tossing together a reasonable bundle of software.
<persia> achieving 700MB is *hard*.  I've taken a couple stabs at it before.
<persia> It's easy if we cut heavily, but we have a strong expression from users that they want e.g. all the plugins, all the effects (this at one point included a whole heap of extra gimp filters), etc.
<detrate-> I'm not even sure the target audience.  From cory's words, it sounds like you need to know how to program your midi controller to be considered a uS user
<persia> Giving them all of them is too much, but we want to have a sufficient selection that they mostly don't need to go looking.
<detrate-> persia: provide it as a meta package then?
<persia> detrate-: Example content is interesting.
<persia> detrate-: That's how the images are constructed: it's just a set of tasks (where the tasks roughly match some metapackages).
<persia> The issue is that the image should contain it: else the user may as well just install the metapackage in Ubuntu.
<detrate-> yes but can't you define your own >> ubuntustudio-audio-extras
<persia> That's not a bad idea.  Have e.g. ubuntustudio-audio, ubuntustudio-audio-extras, ubuntustudio-audio-plugins, ubuntustudio-audio-plugins-extra.
<detrate-> imho you should pick 1 or 2 of the best applications in a specific area of focus and provide the others in a different fashion... so you don't have 5 midi sequencers that are all similar for example
<persia> Easy enough to do.
<persia> For 9.10 we shipped 2 MIDI sequencers: one designed for composition, and one for live performances.
<detrate-> and build a strong core with more stable/complete software but give more serious users the [quick] ability to customize to their needs
<persia> The idea has always been to try to pick the one best application for each need, although the mixxx/terminatorx debate made that hard (lots of folks provided strong arguments that these were *different* tools)
<detrate-> I felt like there were waaay too many applications when I tried 9.10
<detrate-> I felt lost and uninformed
<detrate-> I thought I'd have a suite of well organized tools at my fingertips but it turned out you need to be quite proficient to even understand what to do after opening half of them
<detrate-> and I'm not saying this to knock your efforts, they are obviously appreciated, otherwise I wouldn't even be here
<detrate-> but I'm trying to give you a better view from a first time user
<detrate-> I wish I had my notes still but I kind of fell into a kde4.4 whirlwind after my uS experience
<detrate-> and just ended up wiping a whole bunch of stuff
<detrate-> namely because kwin doesn't support dual monitors in the way that I need.
<persia> heh.
<persia> One of the things that makes it hard is that we don't control the actual applications, just the choice of applications.
<detrate-> yes, I understand that
<detrate-> however, tutorials as I was saying yesterday could be invaluable to new users
<detrate-> you can probably scoop up a bunch on youtube/vimeo
<detrate-> this is where a team of liaisons or coordinators comes in handy
<persia> Yeah, a good documentation effort would be helpful.
<scott-work> detrate-: i've given some thought to what you have said about workflow and I agree with you that it is necessary
<scott-work> especially for the osx/win incoming crowd as troy pointed out the other day
<scott-work> and 64 studio had a decent start with this, i'll see if i can find it
<detrate-> I have a similar resource you might find inspiring
<detrate-> http://createdigitalmusic.com/2009/08/04/linux-music-workflow-switching-from-mac-os-x-to-ubuntu-with-kim-cascone/
<scott-work> http://www.64studio.com/manual   it sort of steps through several apps in a somewhat logical way
<scott-work> i thin ki've read that article, i even linked it in our documenation on help.ubuntu.com
<detrate-> ah, nice
<scott-work> 'tis a good article, with a different perspective
<detrate-> well I have to head out to an award ceremony.  I will catch you later if I'm not too drunk :-P
<scott-work> win awards!
<detrate-> ^_^ we could
<scott-work> that's a quote from Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy
<detrate-> just won an award for one of the web tools we created actually :)
<detrate-> though not the one I expected admittedly
<scott-work> wow, cool deal :)
<scott-work> lol
<detrate-> www.actoutforhealth.org
<detrate-> I thought www.yourwateryourdecision.org would beat it
<detrate-> but I'll catch you later
<detrate-> pz
<scott-work> good luck, don't drink and dive
<scott-work> err drive
<scott-work> persia, do you feel like we are on the cusp of some creative and positive changes?  a real shift in paradigms?
<scott-work> i do, i hope it's not false
<persia> I always feel that way :)
<scott-work> hehe, well played
<scott-work> i really like the format of the 64studio manual, the organization of information would really help new users and those unfamiliar with linux in general
<persia> May as well check with them to see if we can derive and produce a manual.
<persia> But I'd make sure there was someone with time to do the documentation first.
<scott-work> detrate-: i'm using that tab tree pluging for firefox, very interesting, you can open up a significant amount of realestate with it
<scott-work> detrate-: i also use igoogle header remover (and greasemonkey) for my home page    http://userscripts.org/scripts/show/24339
<scott-work> gets rid of that huge arse google banner and brings much of your screen back up where it is visible (especially on laptops)
<detrate> hehe, I run a custom google stylesheet already with stylish
<detrate> btw, had to stop home for a second
<detrate> but yeah, tabs on the side are pretty sweet
<detrate> no plugin fully does what I hope yet but that's okay
<detrate> I wish there was better grouping and saving of sessions with the groups
<detrate> imagine that tree tab list with a "file select" type box, where you can drag to select many tabs in a box or hold ctrl to select individuals as a group
<detrate> then say, f these for now I'm done, put them here
<scott-work> i thought you were out winning awards and getting drunk
<scott-work> oh, read second sentence, nevermind
<detrate> yes but first I need to pick up my car
<detrate> I have a strict no drinks and driving my motorcycle rule
<scott-work> winner!
<detrate> no good can come from that
<detrate> but I can have 2-3 drinks and drive my car
<scott-work> i knew  a guy that put nitrious on his motercycle
<detrate> ha
<detrate> I have more of an adventure tourer than a sport bike
<detrate> I use a wide-view hack for google results too btw
<detrate> http://userstyles.org/styles/20361
<detrate> this is more or less what my google looks like <a href="http://imgur.com/NEFpx.png" title="Hosted by imgur.com">http://imgur.com/NEFpx.png</a>
<detrate> sorry I'm a noob and pasted the html link
 * scott-work is going home :)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-04-22
<ckontros> Hey guys.
<ckontros> ScottL. Gimmie 'till the weekend to digest your email. Things are a but nuts 'till then. I'll be able to better respond on Saturday.
<ckontros> Ok. Peace guys. (note that Im often connected but not in-channel if someone needs me)
<persia> And we try not to pester you, if we can avoid it.  We know you don't really have time.
<rlameiro> persia: only one test to go on the iso.qa.ubuntu.com
<rlameiro> :DD
<persia> Cool!
<persia> entire-disk-with-encryption.
<rlameiro> yeap
<persia> You doing that next, or do you need a hand?
<rlameiro> i never did a entire disk with encryption
<rlameiro> it shouldn't be hard
<rlameiro> but i dont want to mess with my other os
<rlameiro> at the mometn i have 2 ubuntus installed
<persia> DO you need both of them?
<persia> Oh, entire disk.
<persia> Right.
<rlameiro> yeap
<rlameiro> i am on a laptop
<persia> I can do an install to a VM, but not a real install, with the hardware I have avaiable.
<rlameiro> if i had a desktop i would do it
<rlameiro> just putting an old 40 gb harddrive
<persia> (well, I suppose I could do a real install, but I'd fail it, because of an installer bug related to that specific hardware, and that's not useful)
<rlameiro> its 64bit
<persia> OK.  I'll start up a VM.
<rlameiro> vm with 64 bit are
<rlameiro> difficult to fins :D
<rlameiro> well, at leas virtualbox doesnt support it
<ScottL> later tonight i should get the last i386 test tonight :)
<ScottL> oh and thatnks rlameiro for the testing you did 
<rlameiro> ScottL: they are all made :D
<rlameiro> ava made it
<rlameiro> its only missing a AMD64 entire disk with encryption
<rlameiro> ScottL: I am going to sleep now
<rlameiro> we need to talk later
<rlameiro> cya guys 
<persia> The trick to 64-bit VMs is to have a 64-bit server around with libvirt installed.
<persia> The hassle is getting this to actually work properly
<ScottL> hmmm, i wonder what rlamerio wanted to talk about?
<persia> OK Test running.
<ScottL> good, i'm working on the last i386 now
 * persia fails to understand why it's slow going from a virtual iso to a virtual disk on a machine that isn't really doing much else
<persia> Oh!  I know why it's slow.  I'm encrypting everything.  Silly me.
<ScottL> lol
<ScottL> that should be the last test also
<ScottL> i meant the one you are performing persia
<persia> Yeah, just taking a while.
<persia> So, there's a discussion in -motu about whether the images should be respun.
<persia> I think they shouldn't, because I think we won't manage to test them again if they are.
<persia> But if someone wants to make an official statement to that effect, it wouldn't hurt.
<ScottL> statement made in -motu, not sure how it would be official
<persia> Same as anything else.  consensus.
<ScottL> do i need to address myself as project lead or acting lead or something?
<persia> I think that needs to get sorted out internally first.
<persia> I'm known to be associated with ubuntustudio.  My statement that you might be the right person is probably as much as we need.
<persia> I don't remember if there was an official release delegation this cycle (I think not, remembering the meeting).
<persia> So we might not even *have* an appripriate person to make that decision, which would make it fall to TheMuso.
<persia> And he's already swamped with enough other stuff, that he's not likely to have time to check the corner cases.
<TheMuso> persia: I agree they shouldn't.
<ScottL> persia, i put forth my suggestion because you mentioned "official" here and referenced me in -motu
<persia> ScottL: You appear to be taking on the mantle of project lead.  Apologies if I presume too far.
<ScottL> no, no, i've stated in this channel that i had volunteered for the position in lieu of anyone else, no apologies need my friend :)
<ScottL> i meant that it sounded like it would be helpful in -motu to wield a title to fortify our argument
<persia> In my experience if the choice is between "do a lot of work in a hurry" and "wait a couple days to complete a task that can be prepared in advance safely", people will always choose the latter unless prompted otherwise.
<persia> So if we *did* want a respin, there would likely be a need for strong statements.  Several folk saying "just wait" tends to be enough to build consensus without the need for more formal measures.
<detrate> virtualbox supports 64bit
<detrate> unless your host is 32bit
<detrate> unless you're talking about something specific?
<detrate> I wish ubuntu wiki would give an extra tab if you're browsing in a 'flavor' of the operating system
<persia> We can do different CSS if we like.
<persia> e.g. wiki.kubuntu.org
<detrate> or go another level down in the URL
<persia> Needs making the CSS, etc.
<detrate> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Art/Incoming
<detrate> or such
<detrate> I can do CSS for ya
<detrate> what about markup?
<persia> Dunno precisely.  Compare wiki.kubuntu.org and wiki.ubuntu.com
<persia> See what's different.
<detrate> okay
<persia> That's the bits we can change.
<detrate> all run from the same CMS?
<persia> Yep.  Same backend.
<detrate> okey dokey
<persia> Note that it will take months to get IS to actually implement it, based on past experience, but it's available if we want it.
<detrate> okay
<detrate> well I'm confused how ubuntu.com has the wiki but kubuntu.org doesn't
<detrate> can you edit template files at all or only CSS?
<persia> What?
<detrate> For the wiki, as an admin or whatever user role they gave you.  Do you have access to editing some sort of template file or only CSS?
<detrate> by template I mean a markup language
<detrate> such as HTML, Smarty or something similar
<persia> https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu vs. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kubuntu
<persia> Oh, users can edit content.  moin syntax.
<persia> But we can do per-flavour CSS.
<detrate> on ubuntu.com, there is a "ubuntu" "community" "support" "partners" "planet"
<detrate> but this is not on kubuntu
<persia> Oh, I dunno.
<persia> https://wiki.kubuntu.org/UbuntuStudio/Sandbo works
<persia> https://wiki.kubuntu.org/UbuntuStudio/Sandbox
<detrate> also, can you get the domain wiki.ubuntustudio.org ?
<persia> Oh, you're looking at www.
<persia> I'm only talking about wiki.
<detrate> hmm?
<detrate> no, I was too
<detrate> there is a menu in the header on wiki.ubuntu.com that is not there on wiki.kubuntu.org
<persia> I don't see any reason wiki.ubuntustudio.org couldn't point there.
<detrate> I think that would help with clarity
<detrate> just my opinion, you can get a vote on it but I suggest both that name and a theme
<detrate> I'd be happy to help theme it / write the css
<persia> Oh, I see what you mean.
<ScottL> detrate, i just added you to me list of people who rock ;)
<persia> Yeah, if that differs for those two, it could differ for us.
<detrate> okay, that can be helpful as well
<detrate> thanks ScottL :-P
<detrate> here is a view through my current world if you're interested ^_^ http://imgur.com/sYgeS.png
<detrate> my IRC client is konversation by the way
<detrate> so that's a qt4 version of the same gnome theme that makes up the rest of that screenshot
<ScottL> detrate, how did the awards go?
<detrate> it was pretty cool, cash bar though :-P
<detrate> good meal, good speakers and entertainment
<detrate> How about themes for Ubuntu Studio releases
<detrate> have these been discussed before? and by themes, I mean as ubuntu has with animals.
<detrate> perhaps do a stylish animal that reflects the operating system, or create your own naming pattern following ubuntu's naming scheme
<rlameiro> goodmorning
<rlameiro> persia: thanks for the test report :D
<astraljava> Hey rlameiro 
<rlameiro> astraljava: hey
<ScottL> detrate, that is an interesting idea about the themes
<ScottL> historically i don't think we have had consistent manpower to achieve something so organized and....well, thematic :P
<ScottL> do have some suggestions or specific ideas towards this?
<jussi> As a recognised derivative we follow Ubuntu's naming scheme. 
<astraljava> Are you two on the same discussion? ;)
<detrate> :-P
<detrate> well the reason I even bring it up is because if I'm trying to brainstorm some mockups
<detrate> all I can do is draw abstract shapes and such
<detrate> there is no real art beyond the logo
<rlameiro> maybe the logo may need to be updated to be more on the line of the new ubuntu logo
<detrate> I'd hope a distro targeted more at artists can be more visually pleasing
<detrate> I can't say I'm 100% or even 60% with the design changes ubuntu has been making
<astraljava> Are you now talking about vanilla Ubuntu or Ubuntu Studio?
<detrate> vanilla
<detrate> I don't like the new font choice amongst other things
<detrate> as far as I can tell ubuntu studio has not used to ubuntu font before
<rlameiro> isnt Ckontros part of the art team? maybe this debate could be made with him
<astraljava> I thought Cory took a leave of absence. I could be wrong, though, as I've only been back for a couple of weeks or something.
<detrate-> cory was in here the other day
<astraljava> Yeah I saw that, but I assumed it was merely out of curiosity. https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-studio-devel/2009-August/001878.html
<rlameiro> yeah, but i am almost sure he would help in this matter, since is into artwork
<astraljava> That might be true.
<scott-work> cory has mentioned that he has very limited time, but it _would_ be awesome if he could be involved with art, even it it was to a limited degree
<detrate-> Are there any illustrators with ties to the project?
<detrate-> it'd be nice to get a stylish Maverick Meerkat
<scott-work> i don't think so
<scott-work> i think historically it has been cory by himself doing most of the art direction, although i believe we may have gotten most of our images (gdm screen, wallpaper) from others
<scott-work> and cory may have even done most of the work on the dark theme we have
<persia> There's limits to how much we can diverge from iconography used over the entire Ubuntu project.  We an embrace it, and frame it, but not change it precisely.
<persia> That said, those limits don't preclude some graphics, but they do provide some limits (check with the art team for the specifics of the boundaries for flavours).
<persia> It's critical that we don't move from "flavour" to "derivative" or "remix", as we'd lose the ability to integrate with the rest of the project, and share the work.
<rlameiro> persia: thats the reason i mentioned ckontros
<scott-work> i had not considered the distinction before persia, you bring up some interesting points (i.e. flavour vs. derivative or remix)
<persia> It was a *lot* of work to become a flavour, but being a flavour means we get more support from other teams (testing, bugsquad, MOTU, etc.).  It's not *lots* of support, but enough that I think it's worth keeping within the guidelines.
<detrate-> well, I mean it in just a fanart kind of way
<detrate-> so a stylized background image
<detrate-> with the character from the release
<detrate-> ~for creators, by creators~ type thing going on
<persia> Right.  We just need to run that by the art team and make sure we're not deviating too much.
<detrate-> oic
<scott-work> detrate-: do you mean something like this   http://www.wallpaperstop.com/wallpapers/product-wallpapers/freebsd-wallpaper-240x150-0017.jpg
<scott-work> but maybe in the corner?  and different animals?
 * scott-work admits that he is a fan of a uncluttered desktop background image
<scott-work> i just realized i was assuming where you wanted to put the stylish Maverick Meerkat, my apologies
<rlameiro> yeah, we could have a clean desktop image
<scott-work> detrate-: where did you want to use it?
<detrate-> more like this -- though not necessarily tans http://juzo-kun.deviantart.com/gallery/#OS-Girls-and-computer-related-mascots
<detrate-> anime can be a touchy subject ^_^
<rlameiro> lol
<rlameiro> for sure
<rlameiro> :D
<rlameiro> touchy it is
<detrate-> but maybe something more like this http://fanart.lionking.org/Artists/Spiritwolf77/ZiruPrisma.jpg
<rlameiro> i think it would never made it trough the artwork team
<rlameiro> lol
<detrate-> obviously not the one from the lion king :-P
<rlameiro> hehe
<detrate-> but as an example, a stylized meerkat with headphones on, maybe painting a picture
<rlameiro> wel need to go to work
<detrate-> or djing, who knows!
<rlameiro> detrate: only if it is small on a corner for instance
<rlameiro> or in the middle
<rlameiro> but not to big
<rlameiro> well
<rlameiro> going now
<detrate-> okey dokey
<detrate-> I'm just getting the ball rolling on ideas, details can be worked out later
<scott-work> detrate-: how about a meerkat taggin a wall, in the bottom right corner of the wallpaper
<scott-work> spraying either the ubuntu studio icon or the words "ubuntu studio" on the wall
<detrate-> scott-work: would that promote illegal activity though? -P
<detrate-> :-P
<scott-work> kinda looking back over his shoulder at YOU
<scott-work> kinda like this   http://www.individualsole.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/go-flock-yoursel_446_banksy.jpg
<scott-work> but small like and kinda cartoonish
<detrate-> yeah, that could work
<detrate-> probably through some headphones on him
<detrate-> maybe have the previous mascot video taping him :-P
<detrate-> it'd be cool to highlight the big 3 areas... but focusing on 1 is also acceptable
<detrate-> stupid google dirty links
<detrate-> I _REALLY_ hate that they try and hide it with javascript
<detrate-> anyway, maybe something banksy esque http://www.planetvideo.com.au/blog/2008/11/banksy.html
<detrate-> so... does uS have any connections to artists that would be willing to help out in this area?
<scott-work> yeah, i likes me some banksy, has some intelligence behind it it does, better than that crap on the sides of trains IMO
<scott-work> detrate-: to (not really) answer your last question, i don't think any are actively, *BUT* with a clear vision we might attract someone though
<detrate-> bbiab, lunch
<scott-work> persia, yesterday when we were discussing "midi (?)" , did you mention lilypad?
<scott-work> i seem to recall luke mentioning that before, if he recommends it then i would expect that it would be worth including as well
<persia> I didn't mention it.  lilypad produces beautiful scores.
<persia> I think musescore is a richer featureset, but I don't use either that much.
<persia> But *both* are score editors.  They happen to have (differing) support for MIDI, but they should be considered as score editors, not as enabling "MIDI".
<scott-work> right, i was just using "midi(?)" to help frame the previous discussion
<scott-work> but for the home enthusiasts (especially the ones who are not instrumentalists) this would be helpfull to create music
<scott-work> this = musescore and lilypad
<persia> For some definition of "create music" :)
<persia> It's useful to generate a score, so if you can read/write scores, it's a great way to share music.
<persia> But it's often not a useful way for people to generate audio streams.
<persia> (except in that by generating a score, they may be able to work with others to have a recording session)
<scott-work> i had come to understand that you can take a Bach sonnata and play it on, say a tuba using lilypad
<scott-work> but i think i understand your larger issue
<persia> Well, you kinda can.
<persia> So if you transcribe the score into a score editor, you can then generate MIDI which can drive a tone generator.
<persia> This tends to generate uninspired music though, as it typically has no expression.
<persia> Or rather, expression is limited to that indicated in the score.
<persia> scores have an inherent assumption that a human will be generating the audio from the score, and that the human in question will express themselves in the music.  This is why different musicians will record the same Bach sonata, and different folks will appreciate the different recordings differently.
<persia> Computers aren't that smart, so they just play the indicated notes on the indicated (simulated) instrument for the indicated times (precise to the microsecond).
<persia> Which ends up feeling "lifeless" or "uninspired" when later heard by humans.
<persia> For rythym generators, there's been a lot of work in algorithms to "humanise" them, by subtly changing the timings to better match how humans tend to play (e.g. in a basic 4/4 backbeat, beats 2 and 4 come a little later than math suggests to provide wider emphasis on beats 1 and 3).
<persia> But that only works for fairly simple models.  Attempting to apply such an algorithm to a fugue is an execise in futility.
<scott-work> lol @ fugue comment
<scott-work> but if the focus is to "create" music then neither lilypond nor musscore really assist
<persia> Well, it depends.
<persia> If one is creating electronica, it's mostly pointless, especially as much of this consists of looped samples.
<persia> If one is doing choral work, it's absolutely critical, as one needs to inform the members of the choir.
<persia> Most everything else falls inbetween: it depends on how many other humans are involved.
<persia> (and how they want to receive instruction: some guitar players, for instance, prefer tabulature to scores)
 * persia faintly dreams of the effective integration of vocoders, harmonizers, and text-to-speech generators
<scott-work> i personally find tabulature very easy to read, while some other guitarist with whom i have associated could not use it in any manner (they could not read score either)
<persia> Right.  Different folks need slightly different forms.  I presume the second guitarist in your example did best learning by ear.
<scott-work> i wrote a song in an afternoone using hydrogen and espeak    last song under 2010 called "M C Azimov"  http://wirblewind.rpmchallenge.com/
<scott-work> exactly, he wanted to learn one of the slower, more melodic solos that I typically performed and he required me to show him step-by-step
<scott-work> either though we had the tabulature right there
<scott-work> i used such words as dopplegangers in the Azimov song, it was great fun creating it!
 * scott-work has to go to lunch meeting but will be trying to duck out early
<persia> Heh.  That's fun.
<detrate-> in the wiki, I feel like all [major] packages should be outlined with screenshots and links to official sites (if available)
<persia> detrate-: Go for it :)
<detrate-> I'm not saying do this NOW but ideally it would be quite beneficial
<detrate-> persia: I don't really know much about the sound related software but when I find some time perhaps I can some for 2d art
<detrate-> to give examples
<detrate-> well I think some of this goes back to using wiki.ubuntustudio.org to an extent
<detrate-> I think that would be an invaluable level of organization, especially if someone find out if we can edit header templates
<scott-work> persia: i agree with your correction (developers vs. contributors), i tend to generalize into overt stereotypes far too easily
<scott-work> detrate-: are you suggesting that we use wiki.ubuntustudio.org, which will use custom CSS, that will then link to the other pages?
<scott-work> but the overall effect is to show a consistent view (format) of the information despite it coming from two different wikis?
<persia> We're stuck with the help./wiki. split.
<detrate-> well, I think its important to differentiate between enduser and developer focused documentation
<detrate-> can we perhaps do help.ubuntustudio.org as well?
<persia> There's no precedent at help.kubuntu.org
<persia> We could probably do it, but would need coordination.  I'd suggest checking with the #ubuntu-docs folks.
<detrate-> I don't really have the authority
<detrate-> but I don't see why it wouldn't be doable from a technical standpoint
<persia> You have the authority to ask them about how it might work.
<detrate-> it's done for wiki and help is run off the same CMS
<detrate-> is #ubuntu-docs on another server?
<persia> No.
<detrate-> it was empty when I joined
<persia> Sorry.  It appears to be #ubuntu-doc
<scott-work> persia:  please take this as the compliment it is intended to be;  sometimes you sound like Yoda, you are able to see things in a simple manner and state them likewise
<detrate-> Okay, I've asked them some questions
<scott-work> "You have the authority to ask them about how it might work."
<persia> Thanks :)
<scott-work> as where others (myself included) tend to over complicate issues
<detrate-> check out this crazy css masking effect http://econsultancy.com/blog/016-online-pr-capitalisation-is-fine-but-caps-lock-isn-t
<detrate-> on the logo (scroll up and down)
<detrate-> I've never seen that implemented before
<detrate-> I came across that trying to prove that you should capitalize text via the CSS layer
<detrate-> because my in-house design team thinks it's cool to use capslock for headers all the freakin time
<detrate-> and my interns sometimes like to just type out HEADER NAME in the HTML
<detrate-> which I imagine is bad for SEO
<detrate-> where >> <h2 class="uppercase">Header Name</h2> .uppercase { text-transform: uppercase; } << is still the same visually but my guess is it's treated nicer by the page rank algorithm
<persia> Makes sense: most of the automated stuff is case sensitive.
<detrate-> I figured it would be but had no proof
<detrate-> So I'm guessing most of you are using GNOME?
<scott-work> when i'm not at work and using windows, yes
<scott-work> there are some people at ubuntuforums who use xfce or kde and then install the metapackages
<scott-work> linux outlaws already have a stylish meerkat design for us     http://linuxoutlaws.com/podcast/145
<scott-work> scroll down a bit, about 1/3
<detrate-> sorry was distracted for a moment, one of the graphic artists came to speak with me
<detrate-> you talking anout this? http://linuxoutlaws.com/files/squirrel-balls.jpg
<detrate-> :-P
<scott-work> yeah, that was it - that would be like Fab to think of that
<rlameiro> hello
<detrate-> I received information for #ubuntu-doc -- Matthew East has shown me a theme that answers some of my questions http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~mdke/ubuntu-docs/helpwiki-newtheme/annotate/head%3A/MoinMoin/theme/ubuntunew.py
<persia> Excellent!
<persia> mdke is a great contact in general, for documentation-related stuff.
<detrate-> yes, we seemed to have a good rapport going so far
<detrate-> would you like to see the log?
#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-04-23
<rlameiro> ScottL: ae you busy?
<scott-work> rlameiro: a couple of days you said you had wanted to talk about something, do you remember what it was?
<rlameiro> yes
<rlameiro> we need to make some kind of meeting
<rlameiro> scott-work: to make the decitions to be made, and organize a team ASAP to start the maverick DEV
<detrate-> we should set some goals
<scott-work> rlameiro: i agree, we do need to start determining a direction and some definitive goals for maverick
<scott-work> but we may need to address some issues concerning Ubuntu Studio as a project first
<scott-work> finally addressing those issues (audience, goals) may have significant impact on maverick
<rlameiro> exactly i mean that
<rlameiro> after this isues are solved the faster we start on maverick
<detrate-> okay, so lets start planning the work
<detrate-> man, svn drives me nuts when it breaks
<scott-work> i would hope that we can make significant strides in the next few weeks to clarify the project, and provide a good springboard for moving into marverick
<detrate-> 'svn: Server sent unexpected return value (405 Method Not Allowed) in response to MKCOL request' -- I don't even know what this means
<detrate-> anyway, I'm hacking away at wordpress at the moment but maybe I'll have some time on the weekend to dump into building up some documentation to give examples for how I think applications should be organized / explained on the wiki
<detrate-> and as for the 'help' documentation... what's the strategy for expanding that?
<detrate-> do we wait until something in the wiki matures to the level of going into the help section or do we plan to write more user-end specific documentation for it?
<detrate-> I'm not really clear on that process
<scott-work> detrate-: perhaps i'm not understanding your suggestion about the 'help' documentation and using the wiki to mature
<scott-work> my feelings are that the wiki would be a tool for contributors to use to develop Ubuntu Studio
<scott-work> while the help documetnation would consist more of tutorials and explanations for users
<scott-work> others may have variences in this paradigm
<scott-work> though
<scott-work> detrate-: i also want you to know that i am eagerly looking forward to seeing what you come up with for the wordpress examples
<detrate-> well, I figured some of the developer documentation can be migrated to help after it's been built out a bit more
<detrate-> I figure it will just need some rewording and maybe some reorganization to make it more user-end
<detrate-> does the US project have any resources available somewhere other than the few graphics available in the wiki?
<detrate-> some stock photos and what not
<detrate-> also, does the website need to be licensed under the GPL?
<detrate-> or just GPL compatible?
<scott-work> detrate-: you might just search for "ubuntu studio art" in the wiki, there are numerous images throughout, although i don't know that i would consider any of them "stock photo" material
<detrate-> http://www.sxc.hu/browse.phtml?f=search&txt=sound+board&w=1&x=0&y=0
<detrate-> might be better
<detrate-> but I need license clarification
<scott-work> as to licensing, i would defer to persia or TheMuso 
<detrate-> lol @ this http://www.sxc.hu/photo/1046263
<detrate-> I imagine CC-BY-SA would be okay but definitely want to know before getting started
<detrate-> who is the person in charge of the website again? was that cory?
<detrate-> who is my contact for getting the files on the server
<detrate-> I plan on developing it locally, worrying more about the technical, not so much on the theme which can be reconfigured later
<detrate-> I'm not sure if this license is GPL compatible, http://www.sxc.hu/help/7_2
<scott-work> if you can do it locally, we can email cory if necessary with a link, that should bring his necessary involvement to the fore
<detrate-> any restrictions on the server I should be aware of?
<detrate-> I figure it's standard LAMP environment that can run WP without a problem
<detrate-> mod_rewrite needs to be enabled
<scott-work> doh, i don't know anything about the server detrate- , maybe persia has an idea or at least an idea of who would have an idea
<persia> Re: licensing: we'd do best to use the licenses cused for the contents at wiki.ubuntu.com and/or help.ubuntu.com
<persia> Note that when we document software, it's best to diverge from this, and use a license that is compatible with the software.
<persia> Re: server configuration: I have absoulutely no idea: this may require asking ckontrol
<persia> s/ol/os/
#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-04-24
<ScottL> persia, would it be possible to made adjustments to the alternate install menu?  create new options to run special scripts?
<rlameiro> hey ScottL :D
<ScottL> hiya rlameiro 
<persia> ScottL: Anything is possible.  Some things are hard to maintain.  Is there something specific you want to do?
<ScottL> persia, i was talking with troy_s about expanding the user base, which would probably include people unfamiliar with linux
 * ScottL thinks talking with troy_s is a stimulating experience by the way
<persia> Generally :)
<persia> The only issue I have with such discussions is that I always end up with 3-5 (more) action items :)
<persia> But I think we have to take it one step at a time.  Let's first make sure we have a flavour that is interesting for folks that have some (limited) familarity (or are willing to develop it), and then target folks that are less familiar.
<ScottL> to help out their experience i thought about adjusting the alternate install menu to 1) use language linux ignorant people would understand and 2) run scripts to "automate" installation based on their choice
<persia> Adjusting that is *hard*
<ScottL> i was just probing the feasibility of it
<persia> The alternate install is built as a framework and a pluggable set of state machines implemented in shell scripts.
<persia> So that would involve implementing a new controller (and have it somehow work with any interesting pluggable module), and handling string interactions, etc.
<persia> The ubiquity project is designed to do precisely that, but only works for live installs.
<persia> This *may* be a sufficient argument for migrating to LiveCDs, but it would need someone who could spend 5-10 hours weekly helping maintain the installer, rather than being something we get for free.
<persia> That goes down to 2-3 hours weekly if we don't meaningfully modify ubiquity, but that's still a bundle of time.
<persia> (and both numbers exclude the initial porting effort).
<ScottL> but as you said, we probably need to focus on those familiar first
<ScottL> but it is possible, just probably not tenable
<persia> Creating a *brand new* installer controller framework is probably on the order of 3-4 months of solid development to get something buggy, and will be met with derision from the rest of the project, as we already have *two*.
<persia> Right.  Like I said initially, anything is possible, but some things are harder to maintain.  This would fall into that latter category :)
<ScottL> i'll keep thinking about ways to engage new users, not actively, just in the back of my head
<persia> Sounds like a good plan.  Ask if you want an idea critiqued.  Sometimes I can't shoot something down :)
<ScottL> lol
<persia> But really, don't take my critiques as negative: much of the time I point out issues so that they can be resolved, rather than as part of an attempt to not do something.
<persia> It's intended as constructive, although it doesn't always come across that way.
<ScottL> i don't view them in any other way than constructive
<ScottL> actually, i find your comments are informed and your advise sound ;)
<troy_s> Wow. Lots o pings.
<detrate> personally I use ubuntu system panel as my menu.  I've tried gnomenu and a few others and USP is the least buggy :-P
<scott-work> you use a menu?  ewww, i type everything from terminal ;)
<scott-work> kidding
<detrate> :-P
<detrate> well, the best part about USP is the filter search imho
 * persia suspects ubuntu-system-panel will need to have it's name changed at some point, not being software specific to Ubuntu, or even *in* Ubuntu.
<detrate> here I made a write up about it a while ago http://www.doknowevil.net/2009/05/07/ubuntu-system-panel-a-start-menu-for-the-power-user/
<detrate> yeah... it should target gnome in general more
<persia> (getting it in Ubuntu is feasible, but probably only with a name change)
<detrate> it also probably needs a better configuration gui
<persia> I have no complaints about it targetting Ubuntu intentionally upstream :)  I just happen to believe that that use of the term "Ubuntu" exceeds the usage permitted by the trademark policy.
<detrate> yeah, I can agree to that
<detrate> This may be a stretch but perhaps ubuntu studio should attempt to recategorize items in the menu as well
<detrate> specific to audio/video/music
<detrate> I'm just trying to consider ways to get the users to the applications that need faster
<persia> There's an ubuntustudio-menu package that does just that :)
<detrate> oh awesome :)
<scott-work> detrate: is this you?  http://www.doknowevil.net/wp-content/uploads/2006/06/love_my_desktop.jpg
<detrate> yes
<detrate> fanboy in the house
<scott-work> haha
<detrate> I have a poster in my office to help spread the word :)
<scott-work> persia: i've gotten two people at work to use ubuntu:  one uses mythbuntu and the other runs vanilla at home
<detrate> I thought the mythbuntu was very beta
<persia> Three cheers for advocation!
<scott-work> yay!
<persia> detrate: It's been around for a lot of years.  A new beta was just released a couple weeks ago, but that was the same as the beta Ubuntu Studio had a couple weeks ago: lucid beta, not first release beta.
<scott-work> i've also offered to set up Ubuntu Studio for people and get them up and running if they want to dual boot or fresh install on an old computer - no takers yet
<scott-work> BUT
<detrate> well by beta I mean, it's not very stable all around as a DVR
<detrate> that is what I've heard
<scott-work> i've got a new approach on the outreach program based on linux's ability to run on older machines, say P4 2.3ghz min
<detrate> http://pics.nexuizninjaz.com/images/9g2mfap3x7jdgzsrol0t.jpg << my poster
<detrate> I just tell people they can try it risk free with a livecd
<scott-work> i'm spending my own cash (~$250) for computer and Audiophile card, installing and setting up Ubuntu Studio, and giving it to people I know
<detrate> well, I don't "just" do that but it's usually a foot in the door to a bigger conversation about linux if they are interested :)
<detrate> that's nice of you scott-work
<scott-work> i like the recursive screen shot  - that's awesome
<detrate> inspire your neighbors and they'll inspire you back :)
<scott-work> hell, these are engineers, i'm hoping they'll become devs!   :D
<detrate> ;-P
<scott-work> kidding again
<detrate> one of the least computer savvy people I put on ubuntu has drastically changed my workflow because of a feature they asked about
<scott-work> i'm not doing it every week (i can't afford that!) and it's limited to finding a really good deal on surplus computers
<detrate> I've switched from the compiz cube to manage my virutal desktops to the grid view which I activate with hot corners on my monitors
<scott-work> but my baseline is really low...seriously, a P4, 2.3ghz with 2gigs of memory works surprisingly well for Studio
<detrate> scott-work: have you thought about scalability?
<detrate> because you may be limiting yourself going with a p4
<scott-work> detrate: is that like gnome shell 3.0?
<detrate> scott-work: no, compiz, gnome-shell BREAKS compiz
<detrate> so I'll sooner ditch gnome than compiz
<detrate> well unless kwin fixes their dual monitor issues
<detrate> because kwin is pretty slick
<scott-work> i meant the grid...i've seen pictures of gnome 3.0 which shows all screens in the grid
<detrate> yes, it's a similar idea, I have screenshots
<detrate> hold on
<scott-work> for scalability, these are individual guys at home, recording themselves and multitracking, maybe record hydrogen drums along with themselves and singing at most
<scott-work> BUT, it gets them involved, i've done all the hard work and i'll show them how to use it
<scott-work> i expect to hear, "Wow!  It's awesome and much easier to use than I thought!  I wish I had done this sooner."
<detrate> http://pics.nexuizninjaz.com/images/x5ergsokyi9jsxq4rsi.png << this is the grid view
<detrate> I think it's called "expo"
<detrate> in compiz
<detrate> what I meant on scalability is that you should consider going dual core with a motherboard that supports quadcore
<scott-work> ah, i gotcha...for *my* next computer I shall
<scott-work> i'll probably go quad anyways
<detrate> those boards will likely support up to 8-16gb of RAM as well, so the user will be able to keep that computer going for a while
<scott-work> but for these freebies for other people i'll go cheap
<detrate> well, if you're looking to build on a budget
<detrate> using a similar setup I built some client machines for ~$350
<detrate> that was starting with 4gb of ram and a dualcore
<detrate> and 2gb of ram was only ~$50
<scott-work> maybe they'll even buy their own computer because they want dual/quad core and i'll get my computer back to give to someone else ;)
<scott-work> yeah, really the prices are so low these days
 * persia saw a 1.4GHz/1GB/40GB computer today selling for ï¿¥800
<detrate> maybe document in the wiki basic setups for computers, example setups maybe even link to newegg wishlists
<persia> I believe that's something like $10, and it was retail in a store, not some garage sale.
<detrate> hehe ^_^
<detrate> they have cellphones with twice that power in japan
<detrate> okay, maybe not
<detrate> but soon
<scott-work> yeah, but shipping would be really expensive to get it to Texas, USA persia :P
<persia> Have had them for a while.
<persia> I *have* a phone I bought almost two years ago that's about that powerful.
<persia> (same HD size, same memory, 1.2GHz proc)
<detrate> ahh, this is the best one I know, granted I haven't done that much research http://maemo.nokia.com/n900/
<persia> scott-work: Probably.  That was a mid-size tower :)
<scott-work> lol
<persia> That's not all that powerful, really.  It's nice, but it's moderate.  Also, Nokia stopped seilling stuff in the Japanese market.
<scott-work> dan from linux outlaws has a 900 and he likes it tremendously i believe
<detrate> whhhat? why did they stop?
<scott-work> why persia
<persia> And, at least for me, "best" != "most powerful" for phones.  That phone (which also has a 1024x600 display, etc.) is much heavier than I can put up with putting in my pocket all the time
<detrate> I settled for an iphone but I'd like a maemo linux phone ;-P
<persia> Their products sold badly here.  Their product cycle was so long that their products were usually considered outdated, and they almsot never introduced any new or interesting features compared with competing products.
<detrate> but my carrier doesn't really believe in freedom
<detrate> it's business here, they want you to buy from their content delivery network
<scott-work> my wife wanted iphones, i wanted droid - we visited both stores, the verizon guys were so rude and arrogant my wife refused droid -> we have iphones
<detrate> even the most basic of phones I've received from my carrier, they make the main button try and get you into their store to buy crap
<detrate> yeah, you don't want a droid right now anyway
<scott-work> i have found the iphone to be useful, in a freedom hating way :P
<scott-work> why
<detrate> I have 2 people that are looking to get rid of theres
<persia> Carriers here all hard-lock every phone.  There is no switching.
<detrate> well, maybe it's just their phone version
<detrate> motorolla g1 I believe
<persia> But the product cycle is about 3 months, and extremely competitive, so there's never that long before each carrier has what one wants.
<scott-work> heh
<persia> Even so, all *7* carriers compete madly to have new cool features before the other ones (even if only by a couple weeks).
<scott-work> and we complain about a 6 month release cycle
<detrate> :-P
<scott-work> i can't imagine that kind of pressure
<scott-work> persia: i have seen several mentions of subdiving the audio submenu into further categorical submenu based on function, do you have a particular feeling about this?
<persia> I think the right way to do it is to review http://standards.freedesktop.org/menu-spec/latest/apa.html, extend it if necessary, and then have the menu generation tool create more submenus *if* greater than some number (e.g. 7) items would appear in a list.
<persia> So "Sound and Video" might turn into "Sound" and "Video", and then further break down, depending on how much is installed for a given user.
<scott-work> i was thinking of dividing the sound/video menu as well...3 menu levels is that max i like, but 2 is really the comfortable maximum
<persia> I don't think any static model works.
<persia> Otherwise users will complain "How come my menus are so nested when I only have 1 item in lots of places" and other users will complain "I have too many items in the quux menu".
<scott-work> i didn't mean in a static sense, i meant more in a useability sense
<persia> If we do it dymanically, the first thing will never happen, and the response to the second is "Well, those are the freedesktop.org categories.  Do you have suggestions for how to break down better?  Please file a bug."
<scott-work> you mentioned a "menu generation tool" - what is this tool and how would one find it/apply it?
<scott-work> i ask that because our menu doesn't seem to automatically assign new applications correctly
<scott-work> i've seen it all go under audio
<scott-work> perhaps it's my application methodology
<scott-work> application = verb
<persia> gnome-menu is an example of a menu generation tool.
<persia> It's informed by the configuration in /etc/xdg/menu and things referenced from there.
<persia> If you want the details of how implementations *should* behave, check the spec from which I pasted the appendix link :)
<scott-work> i have perused it, but i didn't see anything about the mechanics of how Ubuntu might apply these, rather just how it is applied
<persia> THe spec only says how it's supposed to work.
<scott-work> is the menu like an interpretive language and not static?
<persia> The impementation for GNOME is gnome-menus.
<scott-work> okay, i'll look up gnome-menus and see if that answers my question
<persia> Ubuntu Studio has additionally ubuntustudio-menus which modifies the configuration.
<scott-work> right, i've done work on ubuntustudio-menu, which is a bit of a mess, and this is the impetus to the question
<persia> Fixing all the categories, and making sure gnome-menus does the right thing is the better solution.
<persia> For an example of how it *should* work, install gnome-games and inspect the menu.  Then install sgt-puzzles, and look at it again.
<scott-work> sorry, i'm dense sometimes, rather i have a bias towards certain answers, my apologies
<scott-work> you are saying fix the categories and let it work like it should and it will fix the problem
<scott-work> i wasn't suggesting making the menu static with menu entries to force applications in certain menus/submenus
<scott-work> i was advocating removing audiovideo as a category and letting it go back into separate audio and video menus
<persia> Right.  ubuntustudio-menu does the static forcing now, which I consider a (minor) bug, but it's lots less work than trying to fix it correctly.
<persia> I've not done a full review, but I suspect that fixing it correctly may require changes to the spec.
<persia> And I strongly suspect it means some refactoring of how gnome-menus configuration is shipped, so it can be overridden (or else changing it for everyone).
<scott-work> this may be moot if we limit the scope of Ubuntu Studio but I had wanted to talk to you about this before and I do like to learn
<persia> I don't think it's moot.
<persia> It's a problem worth solving in general.
<scott-work> and the "static forcing" vs gnome-menu is the part that confused me, apparently two different methodologies and i wasn't sure which was the deviation from nominal
<scott-work> well, i meant moot as in we may not be forced to address it
<persia> gnome-menus as an implementation of the specification leaves something to be desired.
<persia> It adds some bits, and hardcodes some bits, and mangles some bits.
<persia> ubuntustudio-menu layers more mangling and hardcoding on top of that.
<scott-work> yes, that helps me tremendously   (that is a serious statement, not facetious by any means)
<persia> We're definitely not forced to address it, but it would be a net gain for everyone if we found a way to do it cleanly.
<scott-work> troy_s: i'm still working through the logs of the other night's discussion - you said at one point, "There is one of the most prolific and stoundout audio reps here with _deep_ knowledge of it."
<scott-work> Of whom were you speaking?
<troy_s> scott-work: crimsun. Strictly in terms of his long term sustained contribution to audio in Debian / Ubuntu. Google around.
<scott-work> i shall, thanks!
<troy_s> scott-work: There are a couple others too, but I was merely giving an example of the type of person.
<scott-work> i'm kinda embarassed to admit that i know next to nothing about him
<scott-work> he's not active on this channel and therefore not in my immediate attention
<ScottL> hi abogani tonight i write a wiki page for you notes on the kernel, sorry it's taken a while to get to this point
<ScottL> perisa, i was thinking on the way home from work about limiting scope to primarily audio
<ScottL> removing any video/graphics applications risks losing *some* users (even with offering meta-packages)
<ScottL> it would behoove us to make sure the effect actually increases the user base
<detrate> I'm not so sure about that
<detrate> I probalby wouldn't be here if art wasn't involved, I'm just recently getting into creating music
<detrate> and are the applications for graphics/video really that much to add?
<detrate> I've almost come to accept that GIMP is on all linux desktops :-P
<ScottL> sorry, i'm didn't mean to suggest that we remove *all* video/graphical applications, but just keep a minimum amount that serve needs
<holstein> for graphics, is there set-up issues like there are for audio?
<holstein> seems like for the audio proffessional, having the RT kernel installed and permissions set-up could be very handy
<detrate> I'd think for graphics the main applications people would want would be GIMP, Inkscape and image magick, perhaps some pallete programs / screenshot programs
<detrate> I'd actually go as far to say the image view should be replaced with something more robust.  I think gThumb is more powerful than Eye of GNOME.  It can be configured to work just like eog as well.
<detrate> s/view/viewer/
<ScottL> not to sound like troy.s but do these applications support our target audience?
<detrate> well you advertise them on the website currently... so I'd hope so
<detrate> the gthumb suggestion is just a matter of efficiency
<ScottL> hehe, well we may be changing the website pretty dramatically after we define the audience ;)
 * ScottL and family are going to crawfish boil
<detrate> Well, I really hope you don't cut out the other creators
<detrate> I understand audio is your primary focus but I don't know if there is a big gain in not adding the essential art programs.
<detrate> I don't think they'll save you enough space to get down to cd size
<detrate> wow, I just tried synfig for the first time, feels pretty solid
#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-04-25
 * stochastic waves
<astraljava> Heya.
<persia> ScottL: Given the feedback, I think it's worth keeping the non-audio stuff around, all the more so since Desktop dropped GIMP, etc.
<persia> ScottL: But it would definitely be worth a renewed call for which applications are considered core applications for use for the amateur/hobbist/student/etc. user.
 * persia believes there to be no suitable high-grade tools, although some that may be suitable for certain classes of production (e.g. webart).
<rlameiro> persia, i have kinda a good news for you
<persia> Which?
<rlameiro> http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2010/04/oscar-winning-video-editor-goes-open.html
<rlameiro> it edits vido up to 2k!!!!!!!
<rlameiro> more pro than that i difficult :D
<persia> Suitable target for maverick+1, for next April, if someone starts now.
<rlameiro> but they are talking to open it only on the 3rd quartes
<rlameiro> so no maverick
<rlameiro> yeah
<persia> Oh, right.  Then maverick+2
<persia> Many times when some project is freshly open-sourced, there's a mess that needs digging regarding licensing.
<rlameiro> well, it depends, if it is a linux version of it at launch time, well maybe it could be packaged for maverick+1
<rlameiro> oh, licenses.... yeah
<persia> Common issues are reliance on embedded forks of libraries, incomplate licensing adjustments, code review to ensure appropriate attributions, etc.
<rlameiro> well, if they have all the copyright on the editor
<persia> rlameiro: Indeed.  If upstream executes perfectly, and supports Ubuntu out-of-the-box, it *might* make maverick.
<persia> Err, maverick+1.
<rlameiro> and they open it up, maybe it will be all on the same license
<persia> rlameiro: Are you sure?  Do you know that no lazy coder they ever employed copied some snippet of code found online?
<rlameiro> well, nevertheless it is a good new
<rlameiro> persia: lol, maybe....
<rlameiro> but like that the review will take months
<persia> And if they release it as all the same license, are you sure they will go through and appropriately license the source files, or just give a *separate* license grant to the source-as-a-whole whlist leaving standard closed-source headers, etc.
<persia> Right.
<rlameiro> but i think thats is waht a company does before releasing something opensource
<persia> That's why I say maverick+2, if someone starts when the source is out, or maverick+1 if someone could start now :)
<persia> Some companies do, and those should be commended.
<persia> If that happens, then someone *is* starting now, so we might hit maverick+1
<rlameiro> i think they will release that on a bsd like license
<persia> (the someone concerned might be staff that the company)
<rlameiro> they want to sell plugins for it
<persia> Lots of licenses allow that.
<rlameiro> does gpl allow that?
<persia> Depends on how the plugin interface is implemented.  Sometimes.
<rlameiro> hummmm
<persia> LGPL is more likely to allow it.
<rlameiro> well, we need to wait
<persia> Yep.
<rlameiro> ok abaout your idea to ask again for software to stay in, and software out of US i agree with you
<rlameiro> we should decide what US will be aimed off
<rlameiro> GIMP is missing from the desktop, so US can gain from it
<rlameiro> but at the core US needs to solve basic problems
<persia> For some value of "we", I agree.
<rlameiro> we as community, of course
<rlameiro> for instance, it is imperative to have networking out the box
<rlameiro> change the ART, or at least the theme
<persia> When you say "networking out of the box", what do you mean?
<rlameiro> after indtall you have networkmanager installed
<persia> Why?
<rlameiro> i couldnt install it from cd easily
<persia> So, what didn't the included network management tool do for you?
<persia> How didn't that work?
<persia> The idea isn't for you to tell me specifically, but for something to think about.
<persia> Network manager requires a fair bit of sporadic resources.
<rlameiro> when i tried to use the cd as a repo, it didnt worked
<persia> It's not much under user-contrl.
<rlameiro> could be, but the majority of the user want networking, its easiar to unistall it if you dont want
<persia> I think we're not communicating.
<rlameiro> we?? you and me, or the community?
<persia> I agree that the majority of users want networking.  I'm unsure that network-manager is the solution that best meets the needs of folk who may have realtime requirements.
<persia> You and I.
<rlameiro> i agree, but when i work in rt intensive app, i just diconnect networking
<persia> So, for those doing audio work, or those rendering animation, etc. network-manager is a decidedly suboptimial solution to the problem.
<persia> Why?
<persia> There's lots of use cases to have working networking during a session.
<rlameiro> yes they are
<rlameiro> i use it
<persia> e.g. rendering to network store, shared ardour sessions, MIDI-over-ethernet, etc.
<rlameiro> for instance using OSC needs networking
<persia> Right.
<rlameiro> so we need networking
<persia> networking != network-manager
<rlameiro> well, i dont think most of the people would want to mess with ifconfig and friends....
<persia> We've historically shipped with gnome-network-admin, which doesn't run all the time, and only does stuff when the user tells it to do stuff.
<persia> If gnome-network-admin has a bug, that bug should be fixed.
<rlameiro> yeah, never worked for me
<persia> So, figure out how it didn't work, and file some bugs.
<rlameiro> does it support wireless?
<persia> Should do.
 * rlameiro digging about gnome-network-admin
<rlameiro> persia: for instance i never got this choice
<rlameiro> http://library.gnome.org/users/network-admin/2.30/tool-getting-started.html.en
<rlameiro> it was empty
<persia> File a bug.
<rlameiro> humm
<rlameiro> ok
<persia> I agree there should be networking out of the box.
<rlameiro> i will need to reboot into the amd64 RC i have installed
<persia> I'm just not convinced that the solution is to install something else, rather than fixing what we have, without analysis.
<persia> It may be that network-manager is the right solution.  It is not the case that someone decided to make networking not work.
<rlameiro> networkmanager is usig 5 mb ram
<rlameiro> and the applet 2.9
<rlameiro> CPU is 0
<rlameiro> and i am using WPA2 wireless
<persia> CPU usage for gnome-network-admin should *only* happen whilst actually configuring stuff.  CPU for network-manager happens variously, as it adjusts the current connection and scans for others, etc.
<rlameiro> humm ok
<rlameiro> i will reboot into it and see how it goes
<rlameiro> i will need a restricted driver for my wireless card
<rlameiro> maybe that is the problem
<rlameiro> i need internet to get it
<persia> Ugh.
<rlameiro> yeah
<persia> For some drivers, we can put them on the DVD.  Others we can't.
<persia> Check the licensing, and see if it's freely redistributable.
<rlameiro> well i do have a network cable
<rlameiro> but for not so power useres its hard
<rlameiro> altought the same maybe would happen on the desktop
<rlameiro> i will need to try a live cd to see if they shipp the restricted drivers on cd
 * rlameiro rebooting
<rlameiro> persia: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1333955/net1.png
<rlameiro> persia: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1333955/net2.png
<rlameiro> persia: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1333955/net3.png
<rlameiro> this is all i get on a freshly onstalled ubuntustudio
<rlameiro> concerning network
<rlameiro> persia
<rlameiro> gnome-network-admin
<rlameiro> is network-admin
<rlameiro> run it from the cli and look at it
<rlameiro> that is what you have on a fresh US
<persia> That's not enough :(  It needs the Connections page.
 * persia hunts changelogs
<persia> rlameiro: It's 10_disable_interfaces.patch, introduced in 2.22.1-6, which is no longer needed because of the package split in 2.29.1-0ubuntu1
<persia> Unfortunately, nobody caught that until today.  it's trivially fixable, but not for lucid.
<rlameiro> so you need network manager for it....
<persia> No.
<persia> You just need to fix the bug.
<rlameiro> no, at the moment
<rlameiro> not in the future
<persia> Ah, OK.
<stochastic> hmm, would a FFE work for this in lucid persia?
<rlameiro> on a RC?
<persia> stochastic: Be a hard push at this point.
<rlameiro> but critical one
<persia> stochastic: Someone might ask why this wasn't caught during RC testing, and I'm not sure anyone has a good answer.
<rlameiro> because people normally install network manager...
<stochastic> persia, the only real answer is lack of testing - not a very good answer
<rlameiro> I saw that 2 weeks ago
<rlameiro> i didnt knew that was a bug
<rlameiro> i tought i was like it
<persia> RIght, and since it's a package shared with the Ubuntu Desktop, which did get a lot of testing, the RMs would likely ask whether the change might introduce regressions.
 * stochastic installs network manager as the first step to fixing his wireless driver on every install
<persia> rlameiro: If something doesn't work right, please file a bug as soon as you notice, and if you think it's critical to fix for release, say so.
<rlameiro> me to stochastic 
<rlameiro> pesiA
<rlameiro> persia: i do talked about it, its what i talked about
<rlameiro> network out the box since a month ago
<rlameiro> ...
<stochastic> ugh, persia you're right, it's just not possible to fix it now, especially because it would change the package in vanilla Ubuntu
<rlameiro> maybe noone listened to me
<persia> stochastic: That's what I think the release managers would say :(
<rlameiro> for sure
<stochastic> If I was in their shoes, that's what I'd say.
<persia> rlameiro: Did you file a bug?
<rlameiro> RC is finishing
<rlameiro> persia: I didnt knew it was a bug
<rlameiro> I though it was a US choice
<persia> OK.  With a bug that's a couple weeks old, we'd have an argument.  Currently, I don't think we have one :(
<persia> No, choice was not to install network-manager.  Networking is supposed to work.
<stochastic> the development team in the past has talked about not worrying about networking for studio
<rlameiro> yeah.....
<persia> That's mostly because it just worked.
<persia> There's a difference between networking not being a priority and networking not working at all :)
<stochastic> very true
<stochastic> well, the good news is that we're aware of the issue and can instruct users on how to work around the issue
<persia> Indeed.  Deserves to be in the release notes.
<persia> And we can file a bug, and fix it for maverick.
<stochastic> persia, has anyone started writing the release notes?
<persia> Dunno.
<persia> ScottL: Any idea about the release note status?
<stochastic> I imagine ScottL would be willing to get that rolling when he wakes up.  If not, I can possibly assist.
<rlameiro> stochastic: you are missing :D lot of work?
<rlameiro> also there is another problem
<rlameiro> I talked about it i think to TheMuso, not sure who was
<rlameiro> the ubuntustudio controls stills has glade as a dependency
<stochastic> rlameiro, I'm on my way back, have unfortunately lost a bit of touch while concentrating on some personal issues.
<rlameiro> i think it only needs to take the line away fromthe deb package
<rlameiro> stochastic: i hope everything is ok with you man
<stochastic> all is well
<rlameiro> are you stil djing?
<rlameiro> stochastic: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/ControlsRedesign
<rlameiro> persia: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/ControlsRedesign
<rlameiro> :D
<stochastic> DJing less and less.  I've recently bought a piano (electric) so my focus has returned to coffee and piano on sunday mornings.
<rlameiro> i really need feed back to know if i push it or not
<rlameiro> stochastic: nice
<persia> I think "Extra Software PPAs" is a bad idea.  What can't we do with backports?
<rlameiro> why not
<rlameiro> the idea of the wiki page is to people put the ideas there
<rlameiro> that are only ideas
<persia> Understood.  I'm only trying to improve the redesign :)
<stochastic> I agree with persia on this one.  You're welcome to have the idea but I think it's a bad direction for the project to take.
<rlameiro> but if i will try to code that, i really need to know what from the beggining, since i am not a coder, i will need to study it
<rlameiro> maybe its best to have backports
<rlameiro> yeah
<stochastic> PPAs are extremely unstable and unchecked
<rlameiro> but we should at least point users to ppas that have nice software
<stochastic> no
<rlameiro> after that they choose if they want it or not
<rlameiro> maybe just links to the ppa
<stochastic> beginners shouldn't use ppas, that will ruin their systems
<rlameiro> ok
<ScottL> persia, release notes   https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/WorkingReleaseNotes
<rlameiro> what about wine vst?
<ScottL> i had been keeping up with them for a while
<stochastic> awesome work ScottL 
<rlameiro> anyone interested in porting a perl script to python???
<rlameiro> hehe
<stochastic> one quick note ScottL, the preempt kernel will only be installed by default in the amd64 IF the ubuntustudio-audio meta is selected during install
<stochastic> rlameiro, in response to your wine & VST idea, I'm not too keen on that, but if someone has the drive to get that code written I see no reason to not use it
<rlameiro> there is in the audio tweaks
<rlameiro> i dont remeber the name
<rlameiro> shame on me
<rlameiro> Sandie
<rlameiro> http://www.sandgreen.dk/index.php?side=python_uat
<persia> Is there a clear way in which installing dssi-vst doesn't just work?  I know YokoZar has been working on that.
<rlameiro> maybe it works
<rlameiro> but the idea is to use wine to run windows vst plugins using asio to jack
<stochastic> rlameiro, Sandie's script actually has a section that merely installs dssi-vst
<persia> I believe that's entirely what dssi-vst does, and why it was written.
<stochastic> running wine and asio to jack is much more overhead for a vst than running it on dssi-vst
<persia> dssi-vst relies on libwine to do it's thing, mind you.
<rlameiro> humm
<rlameiro> ok, i never tried it
<stochastic> okay, maybe it's the same overhead
<persia> Dunno: depends on precisely how much WINE is required the other way.
<persia> Anyway, easier to just install a package than go through any complex configuration.
<persia> And if the package doesn't just work, that's a bug we ought fix.
<stochastic> I'd put money on the fact that dssi-vst has trimmed some fat in the process
<persia> Trying to shove that into a config applet is just working around the problem the hard way.
<persia> Probably.  It's easier to optimise when one has a tightly defined goal.
<persia> I believe dssi-vst is even shipped on the DVD for easy installation (and installed by default with the appropriate task selection)
<persia> (but not on the RC DVDs, because of a bug)
<persia> (which YokoZar is trying to fix)
<ScottL> some to put into the collective conscious - i've spoken with jdong about backports since some that I was aware of did not make it back into the official backport repositories
<ScottL> he suggested me maintain our own LTS backport PPA which then could be proven stable and eventually moved into the official backport repositories
<rlameiro> about dssi-vst, isnt that only for VSTi ?
<stochastic> ScottL, I like the idea
<persia> I don't see the point of a backports PPA.
<persia> It takes *two* testers to get something approved to -backports.
<ScottL> i need to follow up with an email to him to make sure he is okay if i post our emails to the list
<persia> If we can't get two testers, we aren't providing softward anyone wants to use.
<ScottL> persia, he mentioned backports team was pretty busy and apologized when i pointed out ardour 2.8.2 and jack 0.116 were ready to backport and didn't make it
<ScottL> perhaps we should provide an element that will commit to testing backports as such
<rlameiro> what does it takes to test it?
<ScottL> err. make it into hardy
<rlameiro> install it and see if it works?
<ScottL> BUT, even if we run two tests we may still need to prod the backports team via email to actually backport it
<ScottL> rlameiro, basically, yes
<rlameiro> ok
<stochastic> rlameiro, I also should warn against digging code out of Sandie's audio tweaks program in hopes of adding it to the Ubuntu Studio Controls app, her code has essentially no safety checks or error handling capabilities.  Extensive edits would be required.
<persia> Backports needs 5 things: 1) software gets into the development release, 2) someone builds & tests against an earlier release, 3) two people test that, 4) a backporter ACKs, 5) an archive-admin copies.
<rlameiro> so i will need to have always a LTS install to test backports
<rlameiro> i can do that
<rlameiro> I bought a 500gb disk, i can spare 80gb for that
<persia> Note that a backport needs to happen for each release in order, so to get to hardy, one has to go lucid, karmic, jaunty, intrepid, hardy.
<persia> (but intrepid goes EOL soon, so can be skipped once it does)
<ScottL> ewww, but okay :) 
<persia> rlameiro: I'd recommend 4 20GB sections, rather than one 80GB.
<persia> ScottL: That's the process :)
<rlameiro> WTF
<rlameiro> lol
<ScottL> haha persia, i'm just being a wag
<rlameiro> 4 distro plus my working one??
<rlameiro> lol
<persia> If someone on this team works with the backporters regularly, and becomes trusted, they may be able to be a backporter.
<rlameiro> my grub menu will be flooded :D
<persia> There is a backporter on the archive-admin team, so that step usually goes fairly smoothly.
<persia> rlameiro: Nothing says you can't use VMs.
<ScottL> persia, that's was jdong basically intimated (US member -> backport team) but didn't state it outright, kinda followed the US backport PPA -> official backports repository model
<rlameiro> persia: well, like that is really easy :D I can try to test things out for backport if its needed
<ScottL> saying that "you do it, if it works well...then we'll see about making it official"
<ScottL> that's my reading of it anyways ;)
<persia> ScottL: I'll recommend working *with* the backporters team, rather than using a PPA, to make it easier to demonstrate knowledge of their process, and speed the first bit :)
<rlameiro> stochastic: what are you talking about error handling? the exceptions on python, or in general?
<persia> I've seen folks get approved as backporters after 4-5 months of working with the team.
<ScottL> persia, i don't disagree, i'm just reporting what jdong told me, he didn't say no, he just mentioned that it was 90% QA which can happen outside the team
<ScottL> like i said, i think he wanted this to be a real addition to the department and wanted verification before moving to the next step
<stochastic> rlameiro, the code is like a blind surgeon that doesn't listen to its co-workers.  It can do some nasty things while not completing it's job.
<ScottL> stochastic, do i need to add that note about "amd64 -rt kernel with audio meta selection" into the release notes?
<rlameiro> stochastic: ok, so in genersl, ive looked in it, it just send apt-get commands and hopes them to work, true :D
<ScottL> and who will get the notes out where they need to be
<rlameiro> no rt, preempt ScottL 
<ScottL> sorry preempt
<persia> rlameiro: Please don't use system("apt-get install ...").  Use python-apt if you need to do something.
<stochastic> ScottL, if you can add that clarification that'd be great.  I'll post the finalized notes to the website (our website) when release day comes.
<ScottL> but i just want to make sure everyone understands the expectations, so that something doesn't get not done
<ScottL> stochastic, righty-o
<rlameiro> persia: I know, Sandie's script is working like that, i was already looking into apt-python
<rlameiro> most of ubuntu uses it
<rlameiro> so, it should also use it
<stochastic> rlameiro, the apt commands in her scripts aren't terribly dangerous, it's the removal scripts, moving scripts, linking scripts, wine regedit scripts, and so forth that are really troublesome.  But essentially it's not paying any attention to it's surroundings, it's just executing what it thinks should be done.
<rlameiro> stochastic: ok, but do you think that this redesign is the right aproach?
<stochastic> rlameiro, I still don't understand how it's a redesign and not a feature addition plan
<rlameiro> well, redesign on the GUI side
<rlameiro> maybe its a new contols
<stochastic> I think that would need to be fleshed out more before it can be judged.  What's wrong with the current GUI?
<rlameiro> well nothing
<stochastic> why fix something that isn't broken?
<rlameiro> but if we want to add a lot of things that gui will get confusing
<rlameiro> stochastic: well i see where you are heading
<rlameiro> ok
<rlameiro> so, maybe just adding features to the actuall GUI
<stochastic> add one bit at a time, when/as confusion begins to rear it's head, then adjust the GUI
<rlameiro> ok
<rlameiro> so what do you think is a priority?
<rlameiro> I really like the archlinux script
<rlameiro> it is really handy
<stochastic> got a link?
<rlameiro> on the wiki
<persia> I think the priority is to review each potential feature addition for suitabliilty.
<rlameiro> wait a sec
<rlameiro> http://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Pro_Audio
<persia> I suspect some of them can be addressed in other ways (e.g. like fixing dssi-vst rather than providing a WINE configurator)
<rlameiro> persia: exactly
<rlameiro> well i was more interest on the script than the others
<rlameiro> that are just ideas
<rlameiro> the script scans the system and check things to put the system at full pottential
<stochastic> rlameiro, I don't see any script on that page
<rlameiro> what would be nice is if the erros detected could be fixed by the US controls
<persia> Going through that page: "Getting Started" is handled by the default install.
<persia> (and where it's not, we can fix that)
<rlameiro> http://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Pro_Audio#Quickscan_Jack_script
<persia> The only interesting part of System Configuration is the limits.conf stuff.
<rlameiro> and the disk optimizations
<persia> Running JACK is a matter of sane defaults.
<persia> (plus the instructions on that wiki page are outdated: see bug #538702)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 538702 in qjackctl "Comply with jackd >= 0.118.0 which now runs in real-time mode by default" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/538702
<persia> Someone ought check if firewire just works out of the box (I forgot to test for jaunty).  It ought.
<rlameiro> yeah, i dont want to use this script
<rlameiro> just the bits we need
<persia> jack flash is better handled with the planned pulse/jack stuff
<rlameiro> for instance rtirq checks for firewire cards ???
<persia> Realtime kernel is -rt, and I thought I read that irqbalance was installed by default on the server: we could add it if it helps.
<persia> rlameiro: What does rtirq checks on FW cards do?
<ScottL> persia, the bug you listed, that is JACK setting it's own audio.config (or whatever file) and therefore we don't have to moderate limits.conf right?
<rlameiro> persia: IRQ conflicts
<ScottL> if so we should put that in the notes as well and publish in forums, -user mail list
<rlameiro> for instance my firewire  shares IRQ with my wireless card...
<persia> ScottL: No, that's JACK trying to do realtime by default, so changing the sense of the qjackctl stuff so users can turn off realtime if they like, rather than having a useless control.
<persia> We might be able to have JACK set limits.conf, but that would require more discussion.
<persia> Environment variables should be unnecessary, as we have common agreements based on the various packages that provide the various bits.
<persia> rlameiro: Hrm.  That might be interesting, but I think I'd rather see a general configurator, rather than something studio-specific, and then guide users to try it if they need to tune performance.
<rlameiro> persia: are you talking of making a "general controls" for ubutnu wide ?
<rlameiro> or just point at command line how tos?
<persia> No.  Just for IRQ adjustment.
<rlameiro> well IRQ settings are intittled for studio matters
<rlameiro> rtIRQ script was made with audio stuff in mind
<rlameiro> by the same guy that made qjackctl, qtractor, etc
<rlameiro> stochastic: did you ran the script?
<rlameiro> persia: also, rtIRQ already comes on ubuntustudio
<ScottL> sorry, was away with kids, i understand what you are saying about that bug persia
<ScottL> but should we have concerns about jack setting it's own setting in //etc/security/limits.d/audio.conf ?     http://www.pubbs.net/201003/linuxaudio/9816-lau-changing-for-editing-etcsecuritylimitsconf-in-debian-testing-ubuntu-lucid.html
<ScottL> it says something about it conflicting with /etc/security/limits.conf i believe
<ScottL> if this is the case then we really should make users away of it
<persia> I don't have /etc/secuirty/limits.d/audio.conf on my lucid install, but agree that's the way to fix it.  This deserves a bug for maverick.
<persia> Let's see if it blows something up in lucid: if there are a number of complaining users, we can look at an SRU *after* fixing it in maverick.
<rlameiro> i have i
<rlameiro> *it
<persia> Have what?
<persia> A conflict between /etc/security/limits.d/audio.conf and /etc/security/limits.conf?
<rlameiro>  /etc/secuirty/limits.d/audio.conf
<rlameiro> oh
<persia> Please dpkg -S it, and share which package created it.
<rlameiro> i dont have conflicts
<persia> Good!  No conflicts is ideal :)
<rlameiro> but there are a lot of tuttorials and how to pointing to /etc/security/limits.conf
<persia> They are outdated.  Most documentation gets that way.  Search engines are more likely to point to outdated stuff, because there are more likely to be outdated links to outdated docs.  Users who try the outdated stuff and find it still helps, will link to it.  Users who try the outdated stuff and find it's horrid will link to it.  Both of these actions make the outdated stuff more likely to appear in search lists, which then causes users to
<persia>  find it, and comment on it, etc.
<ScottL> i will start working through our documentation about it and comment, as well I will post to the -users list and forums.  but first i will append the release notes
<ScottL> stochastic, note this ^^^ in case you have already started putting the release notes out somewhere
<ScottL> stochastic, release notes updated
<ScottL> later today i will start searching wikis and pushing information to -user and forum
<ScottL> doh, /etc/security/limits.d/audio.conf vs /etc/security/limits.conf also effects ubuntustudio-controls, i suppose we will need to address that during maverick as well
<persia> Yep.
<persia> The release note is mostly "Don't change this setting", I think.
<persia> But we've clearly not been on top of lucid.  Maybe we only want to give it 18 months of support?
<persia> (we don't *have* to do LTS)
<ScottL> persia, think of this in the paradigm for new user accessability and tell me where i fail ;)
<ScottL> add a line to rc.local to run a script which checks to see if a value is either 1 or 0
<persia> You've gotten too complicated already :)
<ScottL> if the set value (default to 0) is 0 then it starts ubuntustudio-controls
<ScottL> oh, you serious?
<persia> Yep.
<ScottL> okay
<persia> Even I try to avoid fiddling with rc.local because of the significant opportunity to make a system unbootable.
<persia> What are you trying to accomplish?
<ScottL> the idea would be present a place for a new user to see some important configuration settings
<ScottL> and perhaps provide some links to important documents
<ScottL> which would require clicking a radio box to stop it from being shown on boot
<ScottL> it's not important at this time, just brainstorming ideas about adding ubuntu/linux ignorant new users
<persia> Too late for lucid.
<persia> For maverick, add it to the default session, and give it the ability to remove itself from the session when a preference is changed.
<ScottL> oh, yeah...didn't expect it for lucid, probably not even for maverick to be honest, but mav+1 perhaps
<persia> Critically, you want it to run at user login, not at boot.
<persia> Easy for maverick, if the application exists.
<persia> I like the idea, but the implementation was overengineered :)
<ScottL> i'm hoping to leverage rlamerio for that part, perhaps part of the ubuntustudio-control moderations
<ScottL> yes, i have that trouble at work, i'm supervisor for engineering department and i tend to tell people not only *what* to do but also *how* to do it
<ScottL> but sometimes it's not the right *how*
<ScottL> plus also people need to find their own solutions to learn and grow
<ScottL> so i often don't just put forth an idea, but also the implementation
<ScottL> but, back to your point about LTS support, do you feel strong about not providing LTS support?
<persia> I learned to stop doing that after reading a book on eliciting software requirements.  The book went to great lengths on techniques to get the users to tell you what they wanted the system to do, and not how they thought they wanted the system to work.
<ScottL> as i said before, you have a rather zen way of approaching things (i called it yoda-like before)
<persia> I still fail at not doing it (frequently), but I try to remember to make sure I understand the "what" before I think about the "how".
<ScottL> troy also has a very singular approach to things (which has significatnly changed my thinking about Studio) for which i am very grateful as well
<persia> I don't really care if LTS support is required.  Historically, I only exceedingly rarely actually do SRUs myself, and then for things that are blocking my work on the development release in one way or another.
<persia> s/required/provided/
<persia> I just wanted to make sure that folks knew that the opportunity existed to choose whether or not to declare LTS on a per-flavour basis.
<ScottL> the good thing is that i am aware of my deficiencies at work and i strive to make changes but i am very active and direct so when people come to me with problem i give more than just direction, i tend to solve the problem for them
<ScottL> i thought an LTS was beneficial to provide users with a stable release (which it still is) but if we feel the quality of our releases will be maintained, this reasoning might not be applicable
<ScottL> which release was it that had significant -rt troubles?  intrepid?  do we foresee something similar happening again?
<ScottL> s/something/a similar circumstance
<persia> intrepid was nigh-on unusable for several reasons.
<persia> It was so bad that we specifically recommended that users *not* upgrade.
<persia> (-rt kernel was broken, -generic kernel had significant audio issues, etc.)
<persia> Oh, and there was a bundle of post-hardy changes with which the team couldn't keep up.
<ScottL> were the changes too vast or the team minimally capable or other reasons?
<persia> Yes.
<astraljava> :)
<ScottL> lol
<persia> several members of the then team (including me) had other commitments take up lots of time during that cycle, there's always a heap of experimental stuff that lands in the first release after an LTS (all the stuff that was determined to be "too experimental" for the LTS), there was a decision mid-cycle to change the kernel version, causing much confusion, and some other things happened.
<ScottL> hi quadrispro
<quadrispro> hi ScottL !
<ScottL> hi detrate 
<detrate> hey
<ScottL> quadrispro, i was hoping to develop an organized relationship between Debian Multimedia and Ubuntu Studio
<detrate> had a little fiasco over the past few days, technology revolted after I did something stupid
<detrate> but I fscked and I'll all good now :)
<ScottL> quadrispro, do you think Debian Multimedia would be receptive so such an idea?
<ScottL> detrate, what did you do?
<detrate> accidentally unplugged my system drive while it was on
 * persia is against the idea of an organised relationship, and instead believes the teams should share members
<detrate> so I booted into a live CD and was using that to fix it, then my RAID 5 started going in another computer, so I wanted to back that up as I had planned earlier, to a more condensed setup.
<ScottL> lol persia, there i go again :) trying to establish means instead of result
<ScottL> doh, detr
<ScottL> detrate, 
<quadrispro> ScottL, of course! a good relationship is the way, IMHO we should empower our teamwork
<persia> ScottL: To extend on that: if we have patches to D-M maintained software, we need to get those into the D-M VCS or have a really good reason not to do so.  Similarly, I'd hope that if we have bugs, the D-M folks would help address them.  I know that a good number of D-M folks run Ubuntu and several have upload permission to Ubuntu.
<quadrispro> hello persia 
<persia> hey quadrispro :)
<ScottL> D-M are much more efficient at packaging and Ubuntu is based on Debian so, i was hoping to coordinate with D-M to help Ubuntu Studio
<ScottL> but to do so in an organized, methodical, and persistent manner
<persia> For Games team, we encourage everyone who works on Games in Ubuntu to do the packaging work in Debian, and when folks don't listen, we pull from Ubuntu to update Debian (or overwrite the changes from the non-listening folk).
<persia> And we try to make the packages work for both distributions.
<persia> To achieve that level of integration with D-M, I think we'd need to identify all the changes to studio software, and all the new packages, and work to get that into the D-M VCS during the beginning of the maverick cycle.
<quadrispro> I agree
<persia> And we'd have to encourage folk packaging NEW software we want to get it into the D-M team repos.
<ScottL> e.g. the new lv2 packages in lucid
<persia> Right.
<persia> If we help the other D-M folk by doing that, and generally helping bugsquash, there's a good chance they will help us bugsquash.
<ScottL> but also including updates to existing applications (e.g. as what happened with hydrogen-0.9.4 and ardour-2.8.6)
<persia> As a bonus, by following the D-M mailing lists, and participating in discussions, there's opportunities to help shape the infrastructure in advance, and we have a better idea what's new with each reelase.
<persia> Right.
 * ScottL will be subscribing to the mailist list this afternoon then
<persia> Where Ubuntu is historically strong is in providing two things: 1) integration and 2) an interface to users.
<quadrispro> right now, we're talking about the packaging policy for NEW packages
<persia> Where Debian has a strong team that works collaboratively, 1) is less important, but we can work around the stubborn-separate-maintainer issue more easily in Ubuntu (if e.g. 14 packages out of 15 are team maintained, and the 15th needs a change to accomplish something, we can just change it).
<persia> 2) remains critically important: Ubuntu is *good* at reaching out to users, getting feedback, getting lots of bug reports, etc.  If we can get people to help filter those and feed *good* bug reports back to D-M, that helps D-M provide better software.  Bonus points if we can help with the fixes.
<persia> That said, we still have to do the bits that make the result a quality release image, but the more we can keep the software we use to do that in sync with that maintained in collaboration with other teams, the more folk are helping us get it done (regardless of their possibly quite different motivations in doing so)
<persia> Where Debian is historically strong (and Ubuntu is weak) is in having a close relationship with the original software authors.  Often members of a Debian development team will be actively involved in working upstream on the software, and software authors often subscribe to Debian maintenance team mailing lists.
<persia> Ubuntu has too much noise to do that well (see the note about being good at attracting users), but if we, as individuals, wear multiple hats, we can take advantage of both to accomplish our personal goals.
<quadrispro> nothing more to say, I totally agree
 * persia should learn not to get on the soapbox, and actually engage in dialogue
<ScottL> heh, but good points nonetheless
<persia> Mind you, it can go too far.
<ScottL> your soapbox or the symbiotic relationship?
<ScottL> ;)
<persia> The Ubuntu Java team is no more, the Ubuntu Games team was mercilessly crushed and became a marketing and advocacy team.  We must remember to *also* have separate team identity for the flavour from D-M, alothough we may share any number of members.  For some teams it makes sense not to have separate identities, but I'm *sure* D-M doesn't care about whether we release a LiveCD or not.
<persia> Both :)
<persia> My soapbox is spring-loaded, so sometimes I don't even notice until someone tosses a tomato (or a coin)
<quadrispro> ehy guys, I'm sorry but i have to go, but before leaving I would show you this: http://snipurl.com/vs451 :)
<quadrispro> I had a workshop about UbuntuStudio (rt kernel, software collection, etc) and i'm very happy: it's been a success!
<ScottL> cool quadrispro , i look forward to reading it
<ScottL> heh, it's a flyer
<ScottL> i thought it was a document
<ScottL> but, that is still cool
<quadrispro> ScottL, no worry, just the poster of the event
<quadrispro> see you!
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-04-18
<ailo_> holstein, Wow. ScottL is not online. His computer must be broken. Just sent a letter to puredyne.
<holstein> ailo_: yeah?
<holstein> and email?
<holstein> thats cool
<ailo_> Yeah, I sent an email, :)
<holstein> ailo_: thanks
<ailo_> There's a few things they've already had some experience on
<holstein> i think thats a great idea
<holstein> to reach out to them
<holstein> or him/her
<holstein> who knows what that team is
<holstein> that live CD is bumpin
<holstein> really useable
<holstein> like dynebolic was
<ailo_> I think they are a few people. Only know one, a little, named Claude
<ailo_> Claude is a puredata guy
<ailo_> But, they have a live image, they have experience with XFCE
<holstein> yeah, its a good fit
<ailo_> So, hopefully we can collaborate on those two things
<holstein> i wish more folks would try puredyne
<holstein> to see what xfce+ubuntustudio could be like
<ailo_> It's really one of the best distros out there, I think
<holstein> when we get emails like that one about it being based on hardy
<holstein> its odd
<holstein> it is a long thread though
<ailo_> Well, there was a guy recommending rocket dock too
<holstein> yeah
<holstein> challenging to keep up with all the facts
<holstein> i just dont want to see 'i think its based on hardy'
<holstein> look it up
<holstein> and 'ive heard xfce is as slow as gnome'
<holstein> try it
<holstein> we need the kind of fact finding that you are good at ailo_ :)
<ailo_> Well, I try to, but it's always a slippery slope, trying to get the facts straight sometimes
<ailo_> Hey ScottL 
 * holstein high-fives ScottL 
<ailo_> ScottL: I was just telling holstein that I sent an email to the puredyne list
<ailo_> Telling them about Ubuntu Studio's plans for 11.10
<holstein> i think it would be great to get those guys to defect here :)
<holstein> one or more of those core devs
<ailo_> Asking if there is someone who would like to help out in those areas that these two distros would share, as using XFCE and making a live image
<ailo_> I'm sure puredyne will still be building a lot of their own packages, but they would need to do less work, if most was already done in Ubuntu Studio
<holstein> ailo_: are they active?
<holstein> i thought they were kinda dormant
<ailo_> holstein, On and Off. They were planning a release for Maverick, but I don't know why it never happened
<ScottL> that's good news
 * ScottL has been having internet conncetion problems
<holstein> ScottL: isp?
<holstein> your usually up for months
<ailo_> I wasn't having a lot of luck asking for help at #ubuntu-desktop or #ubuntu-devel on the theming issue
<ailo_> I only quickly started googling. Could take some effort to find out some answers on your own, I felt
<ailo_> Or, Yacying, which I'm doing now :P
<holstein> why would i want to yacy?
<holstein> im still not clear on why i need to run that locally
<holstein> i had it running on the netbook
<holstein> but i think i should run it on my server
<holstein> then, i got nervous about it
<ailo_> holstein, It's a peer to peer system, totally. Yeah, it would be better running it on a server.
<ailo_> But, it won't send anything, if you have a firewall set up
<holstein> i dont really care if it sends something that it should be sending
<holstein> i got nervous about security
<holstein> without reading about it
<holstein> and then bandwidth
<ailo_> Right. Don't think there will be any problems, as long as you aren't opening a port for it
<ailo_> 8090, or what it was
<holstein> i thought maybe it did it for me
<holstein> opened the port
<ailo_> The software I suppose is building the web content, while the actual search results come from the peer to peer network
<ScottL> holstein, i don't know...connection has been off and on
<ScottL> now i'm trying to upload a nifty webpage i made to explain my dock concept and my server is responding
<holstein> ailo_: nah, it didnt
<ScottL> my server = fossmusicproject.org
<holstein> i looked
<ailo_> holstein, Setting up a server my need some more work, tuning it, setting up bandwidth limitations and all that
<ScottL> what is yacy?
<holstein> ScottL: thats not coming up for me
<ailo_> ScottL, It's a peer to peer search engine
<ScottL> holstein, yeah, i'm pretty happy about the page i made and now i'm pretty sad that i can't get it up
<ScottL> oi, that sounded really, really bad :P
<holstein> http://www.downforeveryoneorjustme.com/fossmusicproject.org
<holstein> :/
<ailo_> Not loading here
<ScottL> oh, TheMuso, i'm reminding you about updating plymouth-theme-ubuntustudio from the bzr branch
<ScottL> we made it past beta2
<ScottL> and thanks holstein and ailo_ for helping with testing those ISO's :)
<ailo_> ScottL, np
<ailo_> puredyne team is not that small, actually, at least a handfull who do a lot of contributing
<ailo_> https://launchpad.net/puredyne/+topcontributors
<TheMuso> ScottL: Oh right, wasn't sure if it was ready.
<TheMuso> ScottL: Right I gathered as much.
<TheMuso> ScottL: Taking care of it now.
 * TheMuso checks out the branch.
<ScottL> TheMuso, i see on #ubuntu-release it looks like you updated the packag
<ScottL> package
<TheMuso> Yes I did.
<ScottL> did you need to do something additional?
<TheMuso> I just fixed the version number.
<ScottL> hmmm, i thought i updated that from the bzr branch :/
<TheMuso> no problem anyway.
<ScottL> i'm sorry TheMuso, i really should be doing better at this
<TheMuso> Thats ok.
<Kokito> hello folks
<Kokito> hello ailo 
<ailo> Hi Kokito 
<Kokito> what's new ailo ?
<ailo> Kokito, Not much. Spending too much time indoors as usual
<Kokito> unfortunately, I can relate to that :)
<Kokito> although yesterday I went to San Francisco and spend most of the day there
<Kokito> they had the Cherry Blossom Festival in Japan Town
<Kokito> I later had dinner with some friends
<ailo> Whenever I think about cherry trees and Japan I come to think about a Haiku poem a Kamikaze pilot wrote: We will fall like the Cherry flowers at spring
<ailo> Or something like that
<Kokito> very poetic :)
<Kokito> I suppose that was their way of coping with the fact that they were going to die
<ailo> T0rCh_raony, Wazzup?
<Kokito> good night folks!
<scott-work> ailo: would you mind hosting a few files for me for a short time?
<scott-work> my server is down and i would really like to test the dock webpage i made
<scott-work> plus i would like for people to be able to understand my idea for the dock :D
<scott-work> also, i did do some testing of different docks this weekend, i haven't really looked at the results in a scientific manner yet
<scott-work> but i can say that wbar just simply didn't work for me and that awn has the most (by an order of magnitude or two) dependecies of the four i tested
<scott-work> i tested wbar, cairo, docky, and awn
<scott-work> something i still need to explore is the xfce dock that comes already established with a default natty xubuntu install
<scott-work> unfortunately i deleted that dock and can't get it back currently :( 
<scott-work> so i'll reinstall another xubuntu install tonight just to play with the xfce dock
<scott-work> after filing a ticket it looks like the raid array at my vps hosting was corrupted and although the hard drives were not physically damaged, the data was destroyed
<scott-work> lucky i have some backup somehwere but it looks like they will just provide me with a new install
<ailo_> scott-work, Is there really a XFCE dock? Isn't that just a large panel?
<ailo_> scott-work, What do you need from the server?
<ailo_> scott-work, Do you need a specific program?
<scott-work> ailo_: when i was erasing it i thought it said "xfce dock" for the name, whether this was purely nomenclature or an actual category of panel i'm not sure, but i'll find out later
<scott-work> ailo_: i just wanted someone to host six or seven files in their own directory
<scott-work> one is the index.html file and the rest are the images
<scott-work> i was just going to make a /dock directory on my server and dump the files into it
<ailo_> scott-work, Ok. You can email them to me and I'll put them up.
<scott-work> done
<scott-work> ailo_: any word back from the puredyne folks?
<ailo_> scott-work, No replies to the post I did. I recommended for those who were interested to joing the Ubuntu Studio devel mail list and/or check out this channel.
<scott-work> lots and lots of exciting changes coming for ocelot...as an after thought i wish it had a cooler name worthy of so many changes, like mustang or falcon or ass-kick or something besides some marcupial
<scott-work> oh wait, i'm not sure an ocelot is really a marcupial, i don't think they keep their offspring in a pouch
<ailo_> scott-work, Yeah? What kind of changes aside from UI?
<scott-work> xfce, -controls, documentation, website
<ailo_> Oneiric I think means dream
<ailo_> scott-work, Right, the changes for US
<ailo_> ocelto seems like some kind of cheetah type of cat animal
<ailo_> ocelot*
<ailo_> Dwarf leopard
<scott-work> at least mac has some cool names (dwarf leopard reminded me of snow leapord and then the upcoming lion)
<ailo_> I like the Ubuntu names. But, I always have to look them up
<scott-work> i don't mean to be dismissive or derisive of ubuntu/canonical...but i feel less connected with the unity move then i have ever have and i don't expect it to improve
<scott-work> maverick was cool, lucid was cool, natty's okay now
<scott-work> hardy was awesome, but that's probably because that's when i got into ubuntu studio i think
<ailo_> Natty seems to be a little buggy UI-wise, though
<scott-work> i never messed with intrepid or jaunty much, because i stayed with hardy for so long
<scott-work> oh, i was talking about name-wise :P
<ailo_> Ah, ok
<ailo_> I was not liking Unity before, but recently, I think it's ok.
<ailo_> Like Gnome3, it needs to be a little more tweak-able
<ailo_> It's not the exact look that makes the difference at all to me, but the functionality
<scott-work> ailo_: i think unity will be a very good desktop for the majority of desktop users
<scott-work> gnome3 as well, but i think not for the pedestrian non-geeky person though
<scott-work> just my opinion
<ailo_> I think the other way around. It's an UI that if it's changed a little, will work well on all kinds of platforms, not only a PC
<ailo_> Something I see from Mac users is that they don't like to change any settings. And they use the search function a lot
<ailo_> As simple as it can get
<ailo_> On Unity, having the menu in the panel makes sense now
<ailo_> It's not strictly a Mac thing anymore
<ailo_> Don't see how it's geeky. More towards main stream, really
<ailo_> I'm confident that people are just not used to it yet, and most of their opinions are based on that
<ailo_> Or, that they hate any kind of influence from Mac, or whatever
<ailo_> scott-work, http://mousike.dyndns.org/dock/
<scott-work> ailo_: awesome! thanks, my server still isn't back and i'm not sure when it will be
<scott-work> ailo_: does this page help make clear my idea on the dock?
<ailo_> scott-work, Well, I guess so. Though, the awn part still feels like it's a matter of taste
<scott-work> don't worry about awn vs cairo vs docky...the entire point of this page is to convey the concept
<ailo_> scott-work, And, considering you are not that into music production, working out those work flows should be done with people who are using Linux daily for music production. I think those are the people who would know exactly what they need
<scott-work> ailo_: i will say that if you compare the dependencies that are required, awn is the heavyiest dock
<ailo_> scott-work, I haven't been using sessions managers like ladish yet myself
<ailo_> scott-work, But, I do think it's a great idea
<ailo_> scott-work, Don't know what would be the best way to implement it
<ailo_> Don't know what it would mean adding it to awn
<ailo_> I mean, adding your idea to awn
<ailo_> And I think your concept is a great idea
<ailo_> So far, it seems to me that the idea is about having a set of launchers saved as a profile
<scott-work> ailo_: true, in the sense that it is a quick way to choose which "profile" you want
<scott-work> but i also think this would be a great help for new users
<ailo_> It is a good way to organize things. And you can have the same starter in many profiles
<ailo_> But, you could do this from the menu as well (don't know about XFCE menu)
<ailo_> I prefer the idea of tags for identifying an application. So, one application can have many tags, and fit into many categories
<ailo_> The traditional menu is not that well fit for that
<scott-work> ailo_: the same concept applies with the work flow dock, the same launcher can be in several workflows...like qjackctl
<ailo_> The Unity menu system would be perfect for this
<scott-work> ailo_: but i think this dock offers something that gnome-panels or unity do not...a visual cue for the workflow
<scott-work> one of the most difficult thing for new users to understand (i believe) is to understand which appilcation needs to be run at what time
<ailo_> scott-work, Yes. I do think your idea is more about tagging applications, rather than giving them only one category
<scott-work> or the fact they even *need* to run something
<ailo_> scott-work, Don't think you can do that with awn anyway, unless you create scripts for all the launchers that makes sure prerquisites are met before launching the application
<ailo_> scott-work, Which btw, would not be hard to do, now that I think of it
<ailo_> scott-work, At the very least we could use zenity to give a popup if jack isn't running
<ailo_> scott-work, Your workflows would only serve as examples. But, for new users, I agree, it is a good idea
<scott-work> ailo_:  i didn't mean a notification, just that the launcher is there to give a visual clue that qjackctl shoudl be started first to launch jack before others
<scott-work> ailo_: as far as workflows being examples...we modified the package selection based on the workflows we defined
<scott-work> the default "starter" workflows that would be in the dock after installation would reflect these
<ailo_> scott-work, I would rather just educate the user on what they should be doing. And it would be nice if the desktop was giving notifications when the user is doing something that isn't going to work, and why
<scott-work> if a user doesn't like ardour and wants traverso, they are free to install it and change the "record audio" launcher workflow
<scott-work> or even create a new workflow
<ailo_> scott-work, I think all users do create their own workflows as is now. By adding quick launchers for the apps they use
<scott-work> ailo_: but this isn't just about education or giving visual clues...this is about providing a streamline interface to assist users doing tasks
<scott-work> ailo_: right but these are probably in a panel...maybe on the side of the desktop
<scott-work> ailo_: and i personally have twenty+ that way
<scott-work> it would be nice to reduce the clutter when i am going to perform a very select task
<ailo_> scott-work, If you can take away everything else, and make it into a pure multimedia panel, that would make more sense to me
<ailo_> Or, maybe not
<scott-work> it could be that way if people want that, but you would at least need a main menu
<ailo_> scott-work, I think this idea could be done in the indicator area as well
<ailo_> scott-work, But then, one would probably use a menu for the launchers
<ailo_> I really need to get into ladish and see how that works
<ailo_> There are a lot of options
<scott-work> i'm not sure when ladish will be available for ubuntu
<scott-work> hopefully for 11.10 though
<holstein> scott-work: i have a song idea
<holstein> that guitarman would be singing on
<holstein> i'll talk to Gman about it :)
<holstein> see if i can get a take to you
<scott-work> holstein: here's a better explanation for my dock idea:  http://mousike.dyndns.org/dock/
<scott-work> holstein: cool, i'd really be interested in doing some music for ocelot
<scott-work> i picked you and guitarman original just because i know you can do stuff and get it done :)
<scott-work> i wouldn't mind including others though
<holstein> sure
<holstein> scott-work: you mean music that gets included?
<holstein> like sample music?
<holstein> scott-work: i like what you got for the dock
<holstein> im still voting no dock
<holstein> but i like the idea 
<scott-work> ailo_: are we ready to do some kernel testing this week?   :)
<ailo_> scott-work, Sure. Whenever is suitable. I should probably do my testing tomorrow
<ailo_> This time I would like to extend it for a while longer
<ailo_> Maybe even a couple of hours, just to see if I get any xruns
<ailo_> I won't be on it all the time, but I'll have some program running, and then I'll check on it from time to time, start some programs or whatever
<ailo_> Just to use it now and then, not just let it buzz
<scott-work> ailo_: i'm thinking of recording several tracks in ardour before testing, include several plugins on these tracks, and then test while recording new tracks...hopefully really load the system
<scott-work> i'll probably do something more straightforward first though, just for a baseline if nothing else
<ailo_> scott-work, I'm actually for not super-loading the system at this point
<ailo_> scott-work, Even though, it might be interesting to see the difference between the kernels
<scott-work> ailo_: you don't think it will demonstrate differences between -generic and -lowlatency?
<scott-work> oh, lol, nevermind
<ailo_> scott-work, When I tried loading CPU to maximum with -lowlatency, I didn't get a single xrun, until the CPU intesive processes were realtime
<ailo_> scott-work, And, no xruns until you hit maximum
<scott-work> did you try the same with -generic?
<ailo_> scott-work, So, my conclusion is, if you load the system to maximum using plugins, you will get xruns
<ailo_> scott-work, Don't think there will be any difference. But, to test that, we would need to do something measurable
<ailo_> Like a real testsuite
<scott-work> that would be nice, but i was hoping to at least derive some general tendencies from the kernels
<ailo_> scott-work, I have tested on two systems. On one, they seem to behave the same, on the other -generic is no good at low latencies
<scott-work> just because you can't exactly quantize something doesn't mean you dont' have any good information :)
<ailo_> scott-work, I think it's enough just to turn jack on and a program
<ailo_> scott-work, Already there, you get differences
<ailo_> scott-work, And light usage, like if you were using the programs normally. Doing a bit of recording and mixing
<ailo_> scott-work, Don't want to have a situation where plugins are misbehaving or something
<ailo_> scott-work, Even just using Ardour without plugins already tells you a great deal
<ailo_> scott-work, I think that's enough as a first step
<scott-work> ailo_: right, that will be my first step, but i would like to explore if loading it up will create some differences
<scott-work> but i'm going home now :)   i'll probably start tomorrow on kernel testing
<ailo_> ScottL, Doesn't hurt to try different things, if you have the time
<ailo_> I'm just concerned with how stable certain programs are. Why I choose to use either Ardour or puredata (which I know well).
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-04-19
<ScottL> ailo_, i think you were right about xfce not having a dock
<ScottL> i'm not sure what i thought i saw when i deleted the bottom panel though
<ailo_> ScottL, I find that the panel feels a little like a dock when you size it to a dock size. 
<ailo_> Not like Gnome panel, where you can place things where you want
<ailo_> But, you can get around that by adding spaces
<ailo_> I used to use the bottom panel as a dock, with autohide
<ailo_> But, I remember it was a little slow hiding
<ailo_> ScottL, I was about to do CPU testing comparing -generic and -lowlatency. The reason why I stopped was that -generic had become useless. This was at the time I was submitting results to the realtime wiki page
<ailo_> ScottL, I could try doing that again. I have a special puredata patch to do that
<ailo_> ScottL, I'd rather we didn't do anything too complicated when doing these comparative tests. 
<ailo_> ScottL, We could do another round of different tests later, if there is an interest for it
<Kokito> howdy
<quadrispro> ScottL, http://people.debian.org/~alessio/ladish/welcome_to_debian_ladish.png :)
<ScottL> wow, that is awesome about ladish....if this hits for 11.10 this will help make 11.10 quite the release with everything else going on :)
<ScottL> oh, and i still need to get kokito screenshots
<scott-work> ailo_: gnome3 cheat sheet:  https://live.gnome.org/GnomeShell/CheatSheet
<scott-work> i found the screencast recordings particularly interesting as it defaults to a .webm file
<Kokito> howdy
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-04-20
<ScottL> hi Kokito 
<Kokito> hey ScottL 
<ScottL> i still owe you some screenshots Kokito 
<Kokito> no biggie ScottL. won't be touching the theme this week, as work is busy
<ailo_> holstein, Would you have time to do some comparative testing between the kernels one of these days?
<ailo_> holstein, l would be interested to know how firewire is affected, if affected at all
<ailo_> holstein, Or is it a matter of processor architecture, which is the only thing I can think of making a difference on one of my machines
<holstein> ailo_: i'll make some time
<holstein> thats some testing i can get my mind around too
<holstein> not too fiddly :)
<ailo_> holstein, Yeah. Basically you only need to run ardour for a while. Preferably more than 15 min on each kernel
<ailo_> holstein, And in the lowest possible latency without xruns
<holstein> i can do that
<holstein> ailo_: how many tracks?
<holstein> i usually test with 8 at 24/96
<holstein> if that'll go for an hour+
<holstein> with no xruns
<holstein> i trust the rig
<ailo_> holstein, Doesn't matter. Just have some activity going on. Don't count xruns from starting programs. Just if there are any random ones. If there are, you try a higher latency.
<ailo_> Once you get a latency that doesn't produce a single xrun, you make a note of that
<holstein> maybe i can do that this thursday
<holstein> im off in the evening
<ailo_> holstein, Just make sure the settings are exactly the same on both tests, and only change frames/period for changing the latency
<ailo_> holstein, That would be great. So far, me you and ScottL. 
<ailo_> And meganerd 
<ailo_> I'm doing my set of tests on one of the machines now
<ailo_> ScottL, The plymoth thing seemed to work when I logged out. Seemed to be a black screen when booting into it, though.
<ailo_> Startupmanager was a nifty program. Let me set the resolution for the boot menu. 
<ailo_> holstein, Also, it would be great if you could compare the firewire with your builtin card, at least fairly quickly to see how much difference there is. If there is a difference it would make a big difference if you could redo the tests on the builtin as well.
<ailo_> ScottL, I might have one parameter that may be of interest doing the tests. Opening GIMP would cause xruns using generic. I'm thinking that some graphic related stuff can xause xruns.
<ailo_> I know that sometimes using the menu in ardour would cause xruns too.
<ailo_> Would suggest that it's something to do with GTK. I believe GTK and GIMP are closely related?
<ScottL> ailo_, how did you install the plymouth theme?  it wasn't updated until a few days ago
<ailo_> ScottL, I just did an update and rebooted
<ScottL> oh, good...that's it then :)
<ScottL> but i have noticed that my computer boots too quickly for the plymouth theme
<ScottL> i only get a very, very quick look at it and don't even see any animation
<ailo_> Yeah :)
<ScottL> but as you say, i see it pretty well when the computer shuts down/reboots
<ailo_> I saw it spin for 1-2 secs when logging out
<ScottL> ailo_, as far as the graphics, we might even consider inkscape then...i think it's more intensive that gimp
<ScottL> i got my server back today...
<ScottL> apparently the hard drive wasn't bad but the raid corrupted and copied garbage all over my data :(
<ailo_> ScottL, It's the same thing with Inkscape
<ScottL> ailo_, no better, no worse?
<ailo_> ScottL, I get 1-3 xruns when loading them. The audio process is interrupted when GTK is loading something
<ailo_> Less, actually
<ailo_> So, when using ardour menu, the audio process can be interrupted, because it is loading the content from the menu to RAM
<ailo_> ScottL, One way to make the CPU work is either decompressing a file, or compiling something
<ailo_> ScottL, compiling can be done using both kernels in some cases
<ailo_> Both cores, I mean
<ailo_> If there are two
<ailo_> ScottL, compressing will cause xruns as well
<ailo_> ScottL, But, the compression needs some time. We could add these things to the test. It would be manageable using a script
<ScottL> did you see tertl3's link?  http://funwithckpatch.blogspot.com/2011/04/ftqfixed-time-quanta-benchmark-using.html
<ailo_> ScottL, Yeah. Don't know much about that. The results looked pretty similar
<ailo_> ScottL, The CPU intensive process seems to only interrupt audio at lower latencies
<ailo_> ScottL, On some systems, you might never get xruns from loading GIMP or compressing a file
<ailo_> ScottL, Well. -lowlatency running ardour and opeing GIMP, Inkscape as well as compressing a file did not cause xruns at 1.45ms latency
<ailo_> ScottL, But, there is already a difference using the two kernels on this system, so there might still be xruns, if I use an even lower latency with -lowlatency
<ailo_> ScottL, From this one test I can't exclude the possibility that doing something CPU intensive will cause xruns on -lowlatency
<ailo_> ScottL, We should perhaps add loading GTK and compressing files to the test. Are you doing some testing today?
<ScottL> ailo_, not today, it's almost bed time for me, but either tomorrow or the next day i can
<ailo_> ScottL, Oky. I'll commit my results in the next hour or so.
<holstein> DAMN
<holstein> https://picasaweb.google.com/jorge.g.mare/UbuntuStudioArtwork#5596292345587801058
<holstein> ^ that looks NICE
<ailo_> holstein, Very nice
<ailo_> holstein, I added some things to the test. You can ask me later about the details, but just shortly: start GIMP while using Ardour. Only record and play with Ardour. Compress a large folder containing many files while running Ardour.
<ailo_> holstein, That should be enough.
<holstein> ailo_: i'll ping you and see if you are around
<holstein> when i get to testing
<ailo_> holstein, Alrite
<ailo_> Only added one machine so far https://wiki.ubuntu.com/generic_vs_lowlatency_test_results
<ScottL> yes holstein , jorge's work looks tight
<Kokito> did I hear my name? :)
<holstein> Kokito: hey
<holstein> i really like the latest screenies i see :)
<Kokito> hi holstein 
<Kokito> glad you like the theme
<Kokito> it's shaping up nicely
<holstein> yes
<holstein> very nice
<macinnisrr> scott-work: Say, I was wondering what exactly are the issues with workflow in Unity? Perhaps the underlying issues can be addressed rather than completely switching our DE. If not, I'd be happy to make artwork for a different DE like XFCE or LXDE. The upcoming 11.04 release of Dream Studio is using Unity, but I'm planning to roll XFCE, Gnome2, Gnome3, KDE, LXDE and fluxbox versions for 11.10, so I'm working on them
<macinnisrr> es for all these anyway.
<macinnisrr> BTW, I ended up getting my old laptop working so I'm (obviously) available while I'm not home.
<scott-work> hi macinnisrr :)
<macinnisrr> hey!
<scott-work> i thought you had fallen of the face of the earth :P
<macinnisrr> no, just the face of the internet.
<scott-work> lol
<scott-work> that happens from time to time
<macinnisrr> word. My wife is having some health issues, so we've been staying at her parents' place for the last little while...
<scott-work> oh man, i'm sorry to hear that
<scott-work> that certainly has a way of putting some things in perspective
<scott-work> anyway, back to your question
<scott-work> how do you feel about using unity for the DE?  have you recorded much with it?  did it affect your work flow?
<scott-work> macinnisrr: are you there still?
<macinnisrr> I just switched my main pc and laptop to 11.04 a couple days ago. I've used it for graphic design, recording, video, etc. Everything seems to be just fine.
 * scott-work is waiting for ailo to jump in and say, "i told you so!"  ;)
<scott-work> macinnisrr: you don't have any troubles switching between apps?
<ailo> Well, my experience is more that I get crashes with Unity, but I did install it from Ubuntu Studio, so that may be the problem
<macinnisrr> Unity-2d is coming along nicely too, I'm sure it will be in the same shape as compiz unity come 11.10. And, no, I've had no trouble switching.
<ailo> Other than that, I would need to find out how to adjust settings, like for the panel. 
<macinnisrr> I have heard that unity crashes lots right now, so I can fully understand not using it as default for now, but more users (because it's default in ubuntu) should highlight why that is, and it will only get better.
<ailo> scott-work, And, why not see about using your ideas for the Unity panel, or something that would work on all of them?
<macinnisrr> what do you want to do to the panel?
<ailo> I would expect Unity to be more stable for 11.10, but who can know for sure?
<scott-work> ailo: that's an interesting idea
<ailo> macinnisrr, For me personally, I would like to be able to adjust the panel just like a normal panel. Don't know how much work it's now. Do you know how to tweak it?
<ailo> Also, I have not tried the 2-D variant at all
<macinnisrr> ailo: just how to tweak transparency, background, and icons. There is currently no way to add or remove applets.
<ailo> Custom launchers, and it would be great if one could add submenus and things like that. I'm sure all of that will come with time
<macinnisrr> OTOH, there are lots of appindicators in development (like the weather indicator that I currently use to replace the old weather applet).
<macinnisrr> and you can always add launchers to the dock.
<scott-work> macinnisrr: sorry, was looking for it in history:  http://mousike.dyndns.org/dock/
<scott-work> that's my idea about docks
<macinnisrr> Right clicking on the applications icon on the dock gives you a menu
<ailo> Right now, the only thing that bugs me is that the panel is not customizable, and I'm missing some applets.
<ailo> macinnisrr, That's a nice feature, which I suspect is loaned from Win 7
<macinnisrr> scott: I'm working on a unity "lens" for workflow, which would give options for design, video, and recording, as well as the ability to create a custom workflow. Clicking on the workflow would open all the apps needed (qjackctl, ardour, hydrogen and some synths, for example).
<macinnisrr> funny, I always have these ideas only to find that you had them first! ;-)
<ailo> macinnisrr, Like a session manager?
<macinnisrr> ailo: exactly, but right on the dock/places, so it's easy for new users to discover (which are the main users who need such a feature).
<macinnisrr> ailo: also, I'm not a programming expert, but lenses I think I can handle (just reading the specs right now).
<ailo> macinnisrr, I would go with something universal, like a session manager, a la ladish, which already exists, and just add some default custom launchers that opens premade sessions, like demos
<ailo> The user does not need a helping hand beyond the introduction
<ailo> Or, one would have to put some serious work into premade solutions
<ailo> But there are no solutions that work for everyone anyway
<macinnisrr> ailo: that's a great idea. I know that KXStudio has a session manager (klaudia, I think), but it has too many options IMHO, and ends up hidden in the audio menu where it could be hard to find.
<ailo> ScottL's ideas sound to me more about having different profiles for a dock, and changing the profile would change the set of launchers
<ailo> And that doesn't need to be an introductionary demo thing in my opinion. That can be used for a anything. Not only multimedia
<scott-work> macinnisrr:  your "lens" concept sounds a lot like what ladish would provide
<ailo> A couple of demos would be enough as introduction, if you ask me
<scott-work> macinnisrr: well for audio at least :P
<scott-work> oh, just read where ailo said "ladish" too 
<macinnisrr> ailo: absolutely, but making a session for recording a band, for making electronic music, for doing design, and for video would all be easy. And I totally agree with it being usable for not just audio (but yes, definitely audio). For instance, when I design themes, I usually have inkscape, gimp, thewidgetfactory and nautilus open. Current ladish session managers don't address this type of work.
<scott-work> ailo: macinnisrr: i will give unity another look this weekend, i'll erase a partition and install the latest vanilla natty on it and play with it over the weekend
<ailo> macinnisrr, All of those applications can take a while to learn, so being able to launch them in a group would only introduce them to the user. Don't know what lens is, but I can see a point in having an application that can create multi-application-launching, which is really just many launch commands in a row
<macinnisrr> basically, with my idea, there is always a "workflow" button on the dock, and when you click on it, the dash opens and gives you a few different workflow options as well as a button to create your own, which would open a wizard.
<macinnisrr> http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2011/04/five-neat-unity-lenses-in-development/
<macinnisrr> ailo: totally. Tutorials is the other side of the big additions I'm working on right now (currently recording an album which I'll use as a tutorial, including creating artwork and making videos).
<ailo> The *only* thing I can see helping the user is demos and tutorials. All the other stuff is just tools, that can be handy to have.
<ailo> I mean, help the user to learn about how to use the software
<macinnisrr> ailo: templates are helpful too (like plugin presets and ardour sessions), and that's in the works as well.
<ailo> macinnisrr, Well, that would be a new area, beyond learning about software. That would be learning about sound engineering
<macinnisrr> scott-work: Unity definitely does things a bit differently, but the learning curve is small, and it works really well once you get used to it.
<ailo> Though, if someone has a lot of experience in some plugins and know which are great to use, a template might give a nice start for a new experienced user.
<macinnisrr> ailo: isn't that what we're using the software for? :-)
<ailo> For the unexperienced user, giving a template I guess is helpful too, but it won't make them able to user them properly
<macinnisrr> ailo: I used to use Logic, and their presets and templates taught me a lot of things I wouldn't have thought of on my own (even though I had been doing sound for years prior).
<scott-work> macinnisrr: i definitely agree with plugin presets
<scott-work> ailo: i dont' necessairly agree with only demoes and tutorials helping users
<macinnisrr> scott-work: they're one of the only things we don't have that windows and mac users do.
<scott-work> ailo: i still feel very strongly that having a visual workflow (with icons) helps new users quite a bit in understanding what comes next, even without tutorial or demos
<scott-work> macinnisrr: i had a similar discussion with someone else lately, it flows like this:
<macinnisrr> scott-work: agreed. Discoverability!
<scott-work> what is different between proprietary and open source music production?
<ailo> scott-work, Well, I disagree. I think that is a tool for any user, but it won't make new users understand what they are doing any better
<scott-work> we record audio the same and it gets made into 1's and 0's and stored the same
<scott-work> but the reall magic happens when they start using their proprietary "black box" plugins, that have presets
<scott-work> how many wankers are there with a mac and a bunch of plugins that are considerd "mixers" theseday
<scott-work> i think that if many of the great mixers or masterers (i'm talking bob katz level) were to use linux it would still sound incredible
<scott-work> it's the talent behind the keyboard that tends to make the sound
<scott-work> ailo: i would have for me, it's great to have all these tutorials but without a structure it's a bit of a mess really
<ailo> I think it would be nice to have some presets, like typical compression presets for kick, snare, guitar, vocals and so on. 
<scott-work> having a visual context of what shoudl be started before the next was a great tool to help me organize the process in my head
<ailo> But, if the user doesn't understand compression and levels, the presets won't make their music sound good anywya
<ailo> I'm just saying that one is a tool, and the other is education
<macinnisrr> scott-work: absolutely! When I started recording, I didn't know about mastering, so I didn't bother. Then I got a copy of T-Racks and used the "FM Radio" preset as my exclusive mastering for years. When I finally switched to linux full time, I didn't have that plugin, but I knew enough about how it worked from tweaking the presets that I was able to recreate the sound I liked with open source plugins. Had I never u
<macinnisrr> sed those presets, however, I would have had no idea how to do proper mastering. And I totally agree with you: A good sound engineer would love the stuff we've got on linux. From JACK to the multitude of ladspa plugins, we have all the tools we need.
<macinnisrr> ailo: I agree. Using a preset is just the first step, you can't stop there.
<ailo> It's of course possible to make templates just like on Logic, for a whole recording session. Maybe a prerecorded mixed song could serve as an example?
<macinnisrr> ailo: BTW, compression is one of the hardest to design presets for, as it's completely dependent on the source material (moreso than any other plugin aside from maybe gate). You can use preset attack and release though.
<macinnisrr> ailo: absolutely. As I mentioned, I'm doing this with a whole album.
<ailo> macinnisrr, Ah, ok. Your own album?
<macinnisrr> ailo: yes.
<scott-work> macinnisrr: so a unity lens is a way to contextually search?  perhaps with tags
<macinnisrr> my last album was mixed in Ardour, but had been recorded on Logic.
<macinnisrr> scott-work: yes, and I figure if I create a workflow wizard first (which would just create a custom launcher) then the wizard and the custom launchers could be displayed in a lens.
<scott-work> interesting...i did look at the omgubuntu blog about it
<macinnisrr> luckily, most of this type of stuff can be done with shell scripts and xml, which I feel comfortable with, even though I by no means consider myself a programmer.
 * macinnisrr listening to the beatles remastered white album -  Awesome!
<ailo> scott-work, Let's put some of these ideas down, that only deal with the workflows. I have three ideas on how to introduce audio applications to the user from the desktop. I'm sure two of them can be used for graphics and videos as well. 
<ailo> scott-work, macinnisrr How about when the user logs in for the first time, an introductionary window appears with options for demos or whatever
<macinnisrr> ailo: I totally agree.
<ailo> Not hard to code, using either python or just zenity
<ailo> macinnisrr, ScottL has put this up https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Workflows
<ailo> I'm really not that concerned with the actual workflow, like what apps to use for mixing, what to use for mastering and so on, but just on how to introduce this to the user. I'm sure there's more than one way to do it
<ailo> Anything from showing a video, to ladish, to opening apps in a sequence and having some text explain what they are and what they do
<ailo> The last one could be done with a simple script
<macinnisrr> ailo, scott-work: thanks for the link. This is perfect.
<ailo> There's no getting around the fact that in order to use the tools, you first have to learn how to use them. But, before that, I totally agree, that the user needs to know they exist first
<scott-work> ailo: i like that idea, i would even like a menu entry to allow them to revisit the same information...much like i would like a "release notes" entry in the menu as well
<ailo> scott-work, How about integrating that into -controls, and keep -controls active at startup, in the indicator tray
<macinnisrr> ailo: totally. At this point, I've made two versions of Dream Studio, and even though I have more users than ever, the requests for more/different apps has totally leveled off. From this release on, all the focus is on making things easier to learn (and of course, any ideas that are deemed appropriate for Ubuntustudio will make their way in at the same time).
<ailo> macinnisrr, I prefer that idea as well. Too many apps can be a little confusing
<scott-work> ailo: this makes me wonder whether -controls should even be called -controls anymore...more like a control/information panel
<ailo> scott-work, I like -controls. It being an icon, with a menu. In the menu you have "system settings", "help", and maybe other things as well, like multimedia package managment, things that KXStudio has, all in one place
<macinnisrr> ailo, scott-work: also, what about putting jack preferences in the control center? We can make jack default to realtime, 1024 buffer, and 44100hz, but users could adjust this from the sound control panel, and have a dedicated patchbay, eliminating the need for qjackctl.
<ailo> macinnisrr, It would seem falktx has been working on that.
<macinnisrr> we could put ubuntustudio-controls in the same section
<macinnisrr> ailo: really? excellent. I haven't spoken with him in a while, but I'm glad we're on the same page.
<macinnisrr> ailo: what's his package called?
<ailo> I wouldn't want to reinvent the wheel. It would be great if some apps could be integrated into the controls menu, like qjackctl, patchage, or any other similar app, like a plugin
<scott-work> ailo: in that context i agree about -controls...if it is an icon in the panel with a right-click menu showing those items seems to give the user the proper idea about the purpose
<scott-work> ailo: i think he had almost everything in cadence (i think) but he didn't have patchage in their as well (i think), i suggested he do it thought
<scott-work> s/thought/though
<macinnisrr> ailo, scott-work: yes, current solution (controls and qjackctl) is inconsistent with the rest of the desktop.
<ailo> macinnisrr, I don't remember the name anymore. falktx started his own controls application
<scott-work> because this would allow the user to avoid using so many different applications and could use a single one with multiple tabs
<ailo> The only problem is if the new app is not as functional, or more buggy, or creates confusion. It really needs to be a great app
<macinnisrr> ailo: I'll have to take a closer look. I use lots of his packages, but there's so  much in his repo that it's hard to test them all.
<macinnisrr> ailo: agreed.
<ailo> I would like to add pulse-jack to system settings options. 
<ailo> I think falktx already does a lot that is needed by users. 
<scott-work> macinnisrr: i'm pretty sure the program is called "cadence"
<macinnisrr> ailo: good idea! And yes, falktx is great.
<scott-work> guitarman says he thinks it's cadence as well
<ailo> I still haven't been using KXStudio a lot. My first impression was that it was a little disorientating. But, overall, it feels like he is on the right track.
<macinnisrr> scott-work: am installing it as we speak.
<macinnisrr> ailo: I personally would have never started Dream Studio if KXStudio had been gnome based. I just think that there's enough to worry about with a small distro without changing the desktop.
<ailo> macinnisrr, It would be good to have more people looking into what falktx is doing and try promote that which is good, so they end up in other distros as well
<macinnisrr> ailo: for sure. I use all the improvements I find, and now that I'm part of this team, I'll be proposing them here as well.
<macinnisrr> ailo: In general, I always keep an eye on all the multimedia distros (AVLinux, KXStudio, ArtistX, JACKlab, Ubuntustudio, etc.), and add all the improvements from each of these as I find them.
<scott-work> ailo: part of the problem with falktx work is that he isn't committed to working on it to get it packaged up to debian/ubuntu standards
<macinnisrr> in addition to the different desktop environments, I'm thinking of doing a linux mint version of Dream Studio as well; they get great reviews, so I'd be interested in adding any of the improvements they've made as well.
<scott-work> if he did, a good percentage may already be in ubuntu studio
<macinnisrr> scott-work: what do his packages need to be approved? Since they're already packaged (in his ppa), it couldn't be much work to adjust them...
<scott-work> macinnisrr: that is true, but introducing a new package can be tricky sometimes....i have suggested that he try with the debian multimedia team
<scott-work> they seem to be much more active than REVU and quite friendly and helpful to boot
<ailo> scott-work, Also, I get the feeling he is more of a visionary then the guy that makes things water proof. I would be interested in seeing what of his work could be added to Ubuntu Studio as a part of -controls and Ubuntu Studio settings. Take out the good things at least.
<scott-work> i'm going home...see you in about thirty minutes
<macinnisrr> scott-work: and debian multimedia stuff automatically makes it in from upstream right? ailo: agreed. I've tried a couple of his apps, and they're good ideas, but usually pretty confusing as the UI goes.
<ailo> macinnisrr, Well, seems like you have ScottL reconsidering Desktops. I was the only one not immediately jumping on the XFCE train. But, I gave up trying to argue against it because I realized I'm not going to present them with an alternative. Would take too much of my time
<macinnisrr> ailo: personally, I don't think we should stray from Ubuntu unless we have to. I'd rather address current issues than change completely, as that can introduce its own issues.
<ailo> macinnisrr, I agree, in part. Unity has some problems, that serious multimedia users can't accept, but then again, we don't need to recommend the latest release
<ailo> Problems being crashes and such
<ailo> Bugs
<macinnisrr> as it is currently, ubuntu-manual.org has an excellent manual on the desktop, and our window controls are on the opposite side, so new users could be confused.
<macinnisrr> ailo: for sure, stability is key, but like I say, after a full release cycle of testing from users, I'm sure the major bugs will get worked out.
<ailo> I'm sure XFCE is easy enough, since it's a very traditional system, but using that would be a step back. Most arguments against Unity and Gnome3 I have heard do not make sense to me. Stability and tweakability are my only issues. Functionality seems to have improved
<ailo> XFCE is kinda a safe bet. I believe it has some issues that Gnome2 does not have
<ailo> Still, personally, I would go with either Unity or Gnome3
<macinnisrr> ailo; totally. Aside from tweakability and stability, every other argument against unity is nothing more than personal preference. XFCE would be different too (just not as different, though that's not necessarily a good thing).
<macinnisrr> and though XFCE is more stable, try to think about how a graphic designer would feel using a system that doesn't look as good as the alternatives. Part of Mac/OSX's appeal to designers is its aesthetic beauty.
<macinnisrr> Gnome2, XFCE, LXDE, etc. simply do not look as good/modern as unity/gnome3/kde4
<ailo> As long as beauty does not affect performance, or stability. It doesn't seem to me that Unity is using any more memory than Gnome2. But, right now, it does crash a lot
<ailo> KDE4 is polished, but I would claim it looks as old as XFCE
<ailo> The widgets that were popular for a while, are they really useful for anything?
<macinnisrr> so unless we're becoming an audio-only distro, we've got to consider that. And yeah, unity is still very buggy. I couldn't switch full time to unity until a couple days ago when my screen stopped flickering randomly (and about a week before that compiz stopped crashing constantly). It's still very fresh. I must say that I like KDE4, but its default setup is too reminiscent of windows for me (shudder).
<macinnisrr> aside from stability, I have only two issues with Unity: 1. QJACKctl  system tray icon doesn't show up, even when I whitelist all applications. This could be remedied by either adding appindicator support to qjackctl, or doing away with qjackctl, so it's not a huge deal. 2. Workspace switching takes one click more than it used to. Also not a huge deal, as the extra click only takes a second, and keyboard shortcuts 
<macinnisrr> are the same as they always were.
<ailo> macinnisrr, Yeah, it shouldn't be too hard to add indicator functionality to it.
<macinnisrr> ailo: from what little I understand, indicator support is just xml.
<macinnisrr> spoke too soon about unity's stability: my dock just quit responding. I'll be back in a minute after I re-login.
<ailo> macinnisrr, I've seen examples in using different languages to code indicator applets. Don't know about xml
<macinnisrr> I'm baaack!
<ailo> macinnisrr, I was just saying that I've seen examples on how to code applets, using python, c, and other languages. Perhaps xml is used by some applets?
<ailo> macinnisrr, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopExperienceTeam/ApplicationIndicators
<macinnisrr> hmmm.... could be. I just assumed that applets are full applications (where xml is used for lists, menus, settings, etc., and can't actually "do" anything).
<macinnisrr> ailo: what applets do you use that don't have appindicator equivalents?
<ailo> macinnisrr, The code is different for indicator-applets and notification-tray applets. That's what I mean. You need to code the applet
<ailo> Or, you need to add or change that part of the code
<ailo> Some applications can do both. 
<ailo> Like network-manager
<ailo> If you take away the indicator-tray, it will end up in the notification-tray
<ailo> Or, the icon will
<ailo> Anyway, it's not very hard to create an indicator-icon with a menu
<ailo> I will be using python for that
<macinnisrr> ailo: aha. Yeah, that's the sort of thing I don't mind doing, writing a whole application is beyond me (unless it's in BASIC). Even if we can get the systray icon for qjackctl working, the icon should be changed to match the rest (monochrome).
<macinnisrr> python is basically a scripting language, right?
<macinnisrr> e.g. not processor specific.
<ailo> It is, since you don't compile it, but it's still pretty powerful. And with a bunch of libraries, you can get code all kinds of stuff
<ailo> It's easy to do simple things
<macinnisrr> ailo: cool. I think that may be my next learning venture. You see all kinds of things written in python. Can you create GUIs in python?
<ailo> macinnisrr, ubuntustudio-controls is written in python. Many applications are, using python + gtk, or python + qt
<ailo> ubuntustudio-controls is using a gui made with Glade. 
<macinnisrr> ailo: right. On Dream Studio I call Ubuntustudio-controls "Realtime Audio controls". All I had to do was edit some text files.
<macinnisrr> ailo: is there a graphical way to edit the glade files (like visualbasic)?
<ailo> macinnisrr, Did you change the functionality too? It has been outdated now for more than a year
<ailo> macinnisrr, Glade is a program to create gkt gui's
<ScottL> ailo, macinnisrr :  one thing to consider about using xfce is that we can work closely with their developer which increases our development base and basing on them puts us that much closer to a having an official build of a live dvd
<macinnisrr> ailo: I made it refer to the proper config file (/etc/security/limits.d/audio.conf as opposed to /etc/security/limits.conf). Other than that and the name change, it's stock.
<ailo> ScottL, The question is how much of a burden would a live DVD really be, if we did it ourselves. Someone needs to do it, though
<ailo> macinnisrr, Ok. Then yours is more up to date than the one in the main repo
<macinnisrr> ailo: I already mentioned to scott that I would be happy to make a liveDVD for 11.04 and on, using UCK, and could even host it on my site.
<ailo> macinnisrr, But, since Maverick, the firewire part is out of date, though
<macinnisrr> ailo: right, I changed that too, now that you mention it, but I'm not sure if it's correct, as I have no firewire devices.
<ailo> macinnisrr, And with natty, no adjustments are needed at all for firewire
<macinnisrr> ailo: aha! I know that I had previously added all users to not only the "audio" group, but also "video", as that has more permissions regarding firewire.
<ailo> macinnisrr, It doesn't really matter if it is audio or video, but depends more on the file that puts firewire devices into the audio or video group. Now, in Natty, firewire is automatically a part of audio group
<macinnisrr> ailo: I basically just surfed the ardour forum for system tweaks and added them all to the default install of Dream Studio.
<macinnisrr> ailo: I see. Well, that's good. Either way, though, seeing as Dream Studio and Ubuntu Studio both feature video functionality, any extra permissions for a "video" group should be accessible by default.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-04-21
<ailo> macinnisrr, The way they did it before was let firewire devices be accessed using Video group, which was needed for realtime. Now, they are accessed through audio group. The file is in /lib/udev/rules.d/60-ffado.rules
<ScottL> ailo, in a couple of hours i want to do some kernel testing
<ailo> In that file, each supported firewire device is added to audio group separately, so not everything "firewire" is getting realtime 
<ScottL> will you be available to tell how you want the test done or provide a link to the instructions?
<ailo> ScottL, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/generic_vs_lowlatency_testing
<ailo> ScottL, I think you get the idea from the "Quick Instructions"
<macinnisrr> ailo: yeah. So the ubuntustudio-controls package in main still points to the old files? That should be changed immediately if we can. I'd be happy to pass my files along (I'm currently in the process of properly packaging all my apps for adding to my ppa, and will notify as soon as they're all ready).
<ailo> macinnisrr, ubuntustudio-controls is being removed from Natty, I believe
<ailo> macinnisrr, It's not really serving any function at the moment
<ailo> macinnisrr, But, it would need to be updated for Lucid and Maverick separately
<macinnisrr> ailo: really? what about memory lock? I've had my display lock up using "unlimited", and not everyone knows how to edit config files at the command line.
<ailo> macinnisrr, You should tell las about that. He seems to think that nothing bad can come from using "unlimited"
<ailo> macinnisrr, I have that function on my version of the -controls as well, but sadly it did not make it into this release
<macinnisrr> ailo: I know, and I have (I left a post about it on the ardour forum), but I must admit that those issues were on jack1, maybe it doesn't matter with jack2.
<ailo> no idea. jackd1 is still being used on occasion, though
<macinnisrr> ailo: for sure. My live mixing PC still uses Lucid/jackd1.
<macinnisrr> Dream Studio uses a memory lock of 1024MB by default for this reason, but it's easy enough to adjust with -controls
<ailo> macinnisrr, The best would be for an application to check the memory size at each login and rewrite the file according to a percentage
<ailo> macinnisrr, I should add that to my -controls
<ailo> The memory can change between boots
<ailo> And it can very well be under 1024, even if that is not so smart with newer releases
<macinnisrr> ailo: I agree. I just started writing scripts when I created Dream Studio, but I could probably make something like that now.
<ailo> ScottL, I have an additional idea about your dock and profiles. Having those synced with workspaces. When changing profile, all open applications in that profile are restored. So, you don't really change workspace. Bit, it has the same effect. Even better if you can have the same app appear in many workspaces, or profiles
<ailo> Well, if you can understand my poor explanation of it..
<macinnisrr> ailo: are you suggesting that an application should open on multiple workspaces, or that if you open multiple applications they should be spread out amongst available workspaces?
<ailo> Instead of workspaces like now, you would have profiles, and one application could appear in many profiles. Changing a profile would minimize applications fro the previous profile, and restore the ones in the profile you just chose
<ailo> Like workspaces, but in the same window. 
<ailo> And some applications could appear in two or more
<macinnisrr> ailo: sort of like ardour profiles, but for the whole desktop?
<ailo> I like Firefox way of using pinned tabs. In Firefox you can group your tabs, and change between groups, but pinned tabs will be visible in all groups
<macinnisrr> very interesting.
<macinnisrr> I have no idea how to implement such a thing, but I think it's a good idea
<ailo> It would need some coding I guess. Something that is added to a panel.
<ailo> You should be able to change the set of launchers on it, by choosing between profiles, and also when choosing another profile, it would minimize and restore applications. Gnome panel functionality.
<ailo> macinnisrr, It was ScottL's idea to have workflow based set of launchers in a dock. And by changing "profile" you get a different set of launchers.
<ailo> My idea was to add a sort of workspace functionality to it as well
<macinnisrr> ailo: so it would be like the workflow idea Scott had, but would additionally minimize apps that aren't part of the profile (and show apps that are)?
<ailo> macinnisrr, Right
<ailo> I suppose not adding an app to a profile would make it unaffected, and some apps could be added to more than one profile
<macinnisrr> ailo: neat.
<ailo> If Unity's panel was used, I would like to be able to choose profiles with the mouse scroll. And I would like a + button, to open all profiles, next to each other
<macinnisrr> once again, I like the idea, but have no clue how it could be done. Can you send a message to certain applications to minimize/unminimize (via Dbus maybe, or similar)?
<ailo> macinnisrr, In whatever way the panels do that.
<ailo> I haven't found out how that works either
<macinnisrr> ailo: I didn't know the panels had anything to do with it. I thought it would be the window manager solely that handled such things.
<macinnisrr> and that the panels simply displayed anything fed to them by the window manager.
<macinnisrr> ailo: I think basically what you'd need is a sort of "show desktop" function that was selective about which programs it applied to.
<ailo> macinnisrr, In panels you usually have those functions. But, I'm sure you can use any application to control other applications behaviout
<ailo> Not the panel itself on Gnome2
<macinnisrr> behavior
<macinnisrr> :-)
<macinnisrr> ailo: sorry, I don't mean to correct you. I actually just glanced at the screen and though I had made the error.
<macinnisrr> thought
<macinnisrr> ha! That time I did.
<ailo> I guess the "addition" to whatever dock or panel one would like to use for this, would contain the same sort of functionality on windows as for instance the Windows List applet does in the gnome2 panel
<ailo> It would require some coding, anyhow
<ailo> macinnisrr, Yeah, I guessed as much :)
<ailo> I should work on some things now. Really, I need to get away from US for a while now..
<ailo> :P
<macinnisrr> hmmm...Well, the Unity dock already handles everything the "windows list" applet does (and lenses too), so maybe it would require hacking unity itself. 
<ailo> macinnisrr, Exactly
<macinnisrr> ailo: right on.
<ailo> macinnisrr, Or adding a plugin, or something
<ailo> macinnisrr, If it is Unity's panel that is to be used, that is.
<macinnisrr> ailo: I'll bring this up with the unity developers; I'm sure lots of users would like this (not just creative types).
<ailo> macinnisrr, It would make a lot of sense, wouldn't it? At least as an expansion tweak.
<ailo> Great to have on touchscreens as well
<macinnisrr> ailo: even if many would never use it, one would think it would be trivial to code, and yes, as you say, it would be great for touchscreens (which Unity is made for, and the way PCs are going, even if not full time).
<ailo> Another thing I've been thinking about for a long time, and I did consider a side panel for that, is that the panel would change according to the program. Now, there's a menu at the top, but on touch screen especially, I think one wants the menu in the form of bigger buttons on the sides.
<ailo> And accessing the main menu would simply need a touch in the high corner, to change the panel to a main system menu instead
<macinnisrr> personally, for Dream Studio, I'm looking forward to having a tablet with touchscreen that I can do all my mixing/graphics/video editing on. A device like that already exists, and our software (Ubuntu) is working towards it. This would be a killer feature. Even iPad users can't edit video or mix/master their album, and even when they can do limited versions of these things, their software is not the same as the des
<macinnisrr> ktop, so compatibility issues arise.
<macinnisrr> ailo: As I understand it, Unity's hidden menus are designed to move developers towards menuless interfaces.
<ailo> macinnisrr, Seems like the right move
<macinnisrr> I can't find the post right now, but there was an article on omgubuntu.co.uk about dock mockups, whereby clicking the BFB would rotate the dock to add extra functionality that isn't just app launchers. I hope they go through with this.
<macinnisrr> a changing menu like you mention would be perfect in such an implementation
<ailo> macinnisrr, Sounds like they are already doing a lot of that, then
<ailo> It's amazing how much you can do with just searching too, now that you are not only searching for the application name. Tags for functions, synonyms and so on
<macinnisrr> ailo: absolutely. Zeitgeist is huge too, as it tracks your usage patterns and returns relevant results. Zeitgeist integration, as I understand, was one of the main reasons Ubuntu went with Unity as opposed to Gnome3 (as they didn't want to use Zeitgeist).
 * holstein high-fives ailo & macinnisrr 
 * holstein is busy and cant stay
 * macinnisrr enjoys the high-five
<ailo> Hi holstein
<holstein> i like seeing activity though :)
<macinnisrr> bitchin
<holstein> hehe
<ailo> macinnisrr, It's not a bad thing really that Unity and Gnome3 are so alike. They can compete, and not feel bad about using each others code (I'm assuming Unity is open source).
<macinnisrr> ailo: it is. Over the last six months, I've read lots of posts about unity. At first, the consensus was "why ditch gnome", then it turned into "unity doesn't work, use gnome2 instead", then "unity is better than gnome3, but still needs work". Give it till October, and I'm sure most people will be back to "Ubuntu rocks".
<macinnisrr> ailo: it is open source, that is.
<macinnisrr> BTW, I totally agree with the philosophy behind Unity (use the best UI ideas from ALL OSes, and lose the cruft), and am also looking forward to wayland as the default display server. Tradition is nice, but when it hinders innovation, it's useless. Not to mention the fact that anyone who prefers Gnome2 and X.org probably knows how to install them.
<ailo> ScottL, I added a couple of ideas at the bottom https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Workflows
<ScottL> i'll be starting the test in about 30 mins and i'll check out the workflows too
<ailo> ScottL, Just by opening GIMP and compressing or uncompressing a file at the same time takes up the whole CPU with non realtime activity. I have had a feeling that graphics have sometimes interfered with audio processes, but in this case, at least for me, it seems the only thing slightly affecting jackd was using the CPU to maximum with non realtime activity. And, it needs to hit maximum for me, for there to be a disruption
<ailo> For realtime activity it is the same thing, except it will most certainly disrupt audio and cause xruns at maximum CPU usage.
<ailo> generic was only ever so slightly worse off when I compared my onboard cards, but enough for the results to be different
<ScottL> ailo, i did some tests
<ailo> ScottL, Were you using the command line to start jackd?
<ScottL> although i admit that i wasn't really using ardour while testing, it was on and running but i wasn't recording
<ScottL> no, i was using qjackctl
<ailo> Those are some pretty low ms values
<ScottL> the funny thing is that i wasn't in the audio group for the first pass through both
<ScottL> i was getting horribly high values and they were apparently the same
<ScottL> ailo, i've alway, i mean _always_, gotten good latency performance with dell p4 machines, even with onboard sound
<ailo> Those values are pretty spectacular
<ailo> When I added 11.6ms for one of the generic tests, I only got one xrun
<ailo> It was that close to the -lowlatency value, but not when using ice1712
<ScottL> i thought they were amazing as well, i was quite surprised as well
<ScottL> i had expected pretty good, but not that good
<ailo> Wait, I meant, when I added 11.6ms for generic in one of my tests, I only got one xrun at 5.8ms,
<ScottL> right, i was doing the same, one xrun meant i used the previous settings as good
<ScottL> i was archiving files and opening gimp at the same time
<ScottL> i even moved the window for file manager while i was doing it
<ScottL> sometimes
<ScottL> and others i was switching desktops by rolling the roll wheel
<ScottL> one thing i should mention...i was on xubuntu as well
<ScottL> but comparing actual numbers between users is a little silly
<ScottL> we aren't using the same hardware, etc
<ScottL> BUT, i think we can see a trend through between -generic and -lowlatency
<ScottL> -lowlatency seems to provide a better performance 
<ailo> The numbers probably lie somewhat, but still, your results are pretty good, especially for generic
<ailo> ScottL, Are you going to repeat the test with your ice1712 card?
<ScottL> ailo, probably not
<ScottL> i either have to install natty on my main rig or
<ScottL> pull the delta card out of my main rig and put it in this test machine
<ailo> Even though some would like to say that onboard devices are crap and not usable for pro audio, I think that if you can use them at least for playback, it's a great thing.
<ailo> And, with -lowlatency, so far, three machines tested, it works pretty well. Hard to say from the numbers what is a good latency. I'm just guessing anything under 10ms
<ailo> The ear can clearly hear 20ms
<ailo> The fingers can probably feel less than that
<ScottL> i've heard 10ms repeated a lot for human hearing
<ailo> At least on my older machine, 10ms was just at the limit of acceptable, but not quite right
<ScottL> and it seems that 5-10ms is said quite a bit too...which is probably more true because different people hear different latencies
<ailo> ScottL, You can test your ears by using a delay and set it (if you can rely on it)
<ScottL> i might upgrade my main rig to natty though, i would be able to test the ice card on a dual core then
<ailo> But, playing an instrument, you might not "hear" it. You just feel it's a little odd
<ailo> Around 10ms. That's my experience
<ailo> So, 5ms I con't think anyone can hear
<ailo> And it's not really that personal
<ailo> It's more about limitations of human hearing
<ScottL> i'm not so sure, eric johnson can hear if a battery is not fresh from a distortion pedal :P
<ScottL> s/from/in
<ScottL> i think some people are psyiological better
<ScottL> at hearing latencies
<ailo> In some areas, I expect the differences will be bigger, and of course, if someone is not a musician, they don't have enough experience
<ailo> But, in the area of time, don't thing the difference is very big
<ailo> It's also closely related to what we can achieve with our hands
<ailo> You hear separate hits from a drum until the point where a trained drummer can't hit much faster. Not counting drum rolls, where you do double hits or triple hits per hand
<ailo> When you go beyond that speed, it starts to sound like a tone
<ailo> Don't remember what the time in between those strokes would be, but I think it's somewhere around 20ms or so
<ScottL> going to reboot
<ailo> ScottL, http://kb2.adobe.com/cps/331/331631.html
<ailo> Check the part "General guidelines that apply to latency times"
<ScottL> i believe that most humans can hear up to 10ms, but i've read about some mixer/master professionals who claim to hear less than that
<ScottL> that's also why i've tended to accept when people say 5-10ms
<ailo> ScottL, You can hear it in a mix, like a phase
<ScottL> but i really don't notice it when i'm recording even when it's around 20ms
<ailo> ScottL, But, you don't really hear two separate sounds
<ScottL> so i guess i'm not super mixer/master material :P
<ailo> ScottL, About the battery and distortion, and tonality, the difference is huge
<ScottL> well, i also think eric johnson is a freak of nature anyways ;)
<ailo> Some people can hardly learn to sing a simple tune, while others hear even the slightest variations in pitch. 
<ailo> ScottL, I'm sure that if you spent some more time with it, you'll start to notice 20ms quite easily. 
<ailo> To get the actual latency, we would need to use a latency testing program, like the one that I think comes with jackd. You need to plug the output to the input
<ScottL> ah, my son finally fell asleep, time for bed for me as well
<ScottL> goodnight ailo
<ailo> ScottL, GN
<Kokito> howdy
<scott-work> ailo: when you were doing your kernel testing, what exactly were you doing with ardour?
<scott-work> ailo: just running ardour? playing something back? recording audio?
<ailo> scott-work, Only recording and playback
<scott-work>  
<scott-work> ailo: tonight i will redo the test to record and playback then
<scott-work> ailo: also, i wonder which kernel is being used in lucid these days
<scott-work> ailo: if it's 2.6.38 then i might not need to upgrade to natty to test
<ailo> scott-work, So far, I have seen no difference in using effects, as long as they don't use all of the CPU, but to find that out, we would need another type of test, I guess
<scott-work> i'll check the current kernel in lucid tonight
<ailo> scott-work, It's not 2.6.38. And, one part of -generic performance is the actual desktop
<scott-work> ah, but i still may upgrade to natty after release
<ailo> scott-work, No clue what in the desktop is affecting -generic, but it was clear before that with the same kernel, after an upgrade, the same -generic kernel was not working as well as before. This was when we tested 2.6.38-1
<ailo> scott-work, So, we need to test using Natty
<scott-work> right, i'm leaning more and more to upgrading natty
 * scott-work keeps /home on separate partition
<ailo> I suppose we should have been very strict with the actual distro too, so that all tests were done on a fresh install of a certaing release
<ailo> The main reason why I don't like -generic is that it changes so much
<ailo> One would need to do new tests every one period for many weeks
<ailo> To find out exactly how the performance changes
<ailo> -lowlatency seems to not change, or not as much
<ailo> And, even so, the tests we do, I don't think are really very accurate either
<ailo> It would feel better if one test was using the system to the fullest for a full day or more, using one set of settings. I had one xrun yesterday from a pretty leangthy test with -generic. Hard to know if that could happen on -lowlatency too, given some time
<scott-work> yeah, like i'm testing on xubuntu instead of ubuntu (but at least it's natty though)
<ailo> scott-work, I'm on Ubuntu Studio, but I've installed some extra stuff on one of the machines
<scott-work> ailo: i'm less worried about providing critically accurate data, my goal is determine if the -lowlatency provides any benefit
<scott-work> and i think broad trends can be shown that support or disprove this
<scott-work> so far it appears that the -lowlatency kernel provides some benefit
<ailo> scott-work, The more tests we do, the more we'll know, I guess
<scott-work> ailo: my plan is to not rely on persia, who has period of absences, i want to begin to forge relations with another (or more) -motu's
<scott-work> ailo: as long as i can say, "we tested...here's our data that supports getting -lowlatency into universe" then i think we accomplished our goal
<ailo> scott-work, Sounds like a plan
<scott-work> you goals may differ, of course :P
<scott-work> you may *really* want to understand more about how things affect the kernel
<ailo> scott-work, Not really. I just want a kernel that works
<ailo> scott-work, If you need to be able to argue for the -lowlatency, I suppose we need some numbers.
<ailo> Though, I'm already fairly convinced, that I will never trust -generic, and that -lowlatency is working well on most machines
<ailo> I wouldn't trust any kernel, until I tried it myself
<ailo> But, I'd rather use -lowlatency than -rt if possible
<ailo> scott-work, So, did you have second thoughts about XFCE?
<scott-work> ailo: to be completely forthcoming...not really as i think it offers benefits and advantages that i do not believe we will recognize otherwise
<scott-work> ailo: but if my perception of unity and gnome3 is wrong i would like to correct it
<ailo> scott-work, I don't think using Unity or Gnome3 will be to much advantage in the nearest future, but I'd be surprised if the Desktop system used for audio distros in the future wouldn't be one of those two. Maybe already by the time 12.04 is released.
<ailo> Let me rephrase
<ailo> I would be surprised if not a lot of people wouldn't prefer using one of those two
<ailo> XFCE might present some problems too. I know I had super sized fonts on one laptop, which I didn't get from gnoe
<ailo> One font took the space of the whole screen
<ailo> Probably very unusual
<ailo> Disregarding that XFCE is perhaps less used, I'm sure it is the better choice for now
<scott-work> ailo: a large portion of the transition may also depend on what cory can accomplish
<ailo> scott-work, Gnome3 new features for 3.2 https://live.gnome.org/ThreePointOne/Features
<scott-work> and we are always at liberty to admit a mistake later on and make another transition
<ailo> scott-work, Of course
<scott-work> ailo a confluence of effects has also changed the way i will oversee ocelot
<scott-work> i have also been concerned about how much we talk versus how much we accomplish
<scott-work> i think holstein and i had a conversation on this topic
<scott-work> probably a large percentage of the blame lies on my shoulders for not taking a stronger stand about direction
<scott-work> and i have been giving this some thought for a couple months off and on
<scott-work> i think i will look at the list of changes/improvements scheduled for ocelot and attribute direct responsiblities
<scott-work> for example, you and paultag might be directly responsible for the -controls udpate
<scott-work> i would be responsible for getting -lowlatency into the repositories
<scott-work> we can then follow up with progress in meetings and thereby hold people "accountable" for the progress as well :)
<scott-work> i imagine there will also be several secondary responsibilities
<scott-work> these might include me and you for documentation
<scott-work> and that is because i do not expect one person to desire to be dedicated solely to the documentation
<scott-work> but if several people have the same secondary responsibility i think significant progress can still occur at a reasonable rate
<ailo> scott-work, I'm for that
<ailo> scott-work, And I'm willing to take full responsibility for -controls, both coding and packaging, as well as helping out with documentation
<scott-work> and hopefully it will also keep people from over committing and focused on something they can effect within a reasonable amount of time
<scott-work> that should also keep people feeling like effective and interested
<ailo> I think the biggest problem with this release was too few people involved, and lack of knowledge and routine for some, like me
<ailo> I'll be feeling much more confident about what I can accomplish for Ocelot
<ailo> scott-work, Clear direction is not bad. Some things I feel have higher priority than others. Should we prioritize too?
<scott-work> ailo: i think that is a good idea
<scott-work> i added ocelot to a ubuntu studio google calender that ricardo setup which also includes meetings
<scott-work> if anyone is interested i'll gladly help anyone get it into their calendars
<scott-work> but for now, i'm going home
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-04-22
<ScottL> hi troy_s 
<troy_s> ScottL: Greets sir.
<Kokito> howdy
<holstein> Kokito: o/
<holstein> ailo ScottL did you guys get that UI email?
<ailo> holstein, Seems like someone is making an effort to get US to work with Unity
<holstein> ailo: im replying
<holstein> asking for a screey
<holstein> screenie*
<holstein> and suggesting to come here
<ailo> It's been a while since I used the cairo dock. I remember it being very configurable and good looking, but not the greatest when it came to get it working right away and not the best performance
<holstein> i didnt like it
<holstein> jumpy and glitchy for me
<holstein> but, again, i dont want any dock :)
<ailo> I used to use docks, but got tired of them
<ailo> docky was the best so far
<ailo> It's been a while, since I tried the rest, though
<holstein> i set up AWN before
<holstein> its like fluxbox for me
<holstein> i cant stop messing with it
<holstein> i was using gnome-do as a dock
<holstein> but, now i just use gnome-do
<holstein> as is
<holstein> on my netbook*
<ailo> gnome-do seemed like a great tool, but I never got into it
<holstein> on ubuntustudio, i just have the icons around where ever makes sense at the time
<ailo> It's not too hard to make your own custom menus either, and add them separately to the gnome2 panel
<ailo> Just that doing a fresh install means you need to save settings
<holstein> i usually just rebuild it
<ailo> Now, I only do configurations that I am backing up, mostly
<holstein> i always have a better idea
<holstein> *or think i do
<ailo> I used to spend a lot of time tweaking the desktop, trying desklets, dual monitor, compiz, and all that. 
<holstein> i only recently tried compiz with dual monitors
<holstein> like 2 months ago
<ailo> Now I'm using a 15 inch monitor, and I'm fine with it
<ailo> holstein, You have drivers? With nvidia I get dual monitors from nvidia-settings
<ailo> I also have HD composite, which I've tried a couple of times with a HD lcd TV. Pretty awesome.
<holstein> ailo: i dont have the hardware for it
<ailo> Don't own a TV, so I don't really use that a lot :)
<holstein> nice
<ScottL> hi all :)
<ScottL> missed kokito
<ScottL> holstein, i haven't seen that email apparently, i'll check in a minute
<ScottL> ailo, i did my testing again, playing back music and recording while compressing data and opening gimp
<ScottL> ailo, got the same results
<ScottL> but i did notice something strange
<ailo> ScottL, Yeah?
<ScottL> if i open meterbridge it caused jackd to stay open, even after i closed everything!
<ScottL> i had to run top, find the PID, and kill PID
<ScottL> very strange i thought
<ailo> Sounds like a bug to me
<ScottL> there might be more email coming holstein, i checked listadmin and saw several emails from luke
<ScottL> they're approved now
<ScottL> ailo, when i install the latest vanilla ubuntu with unity i'll check to see if it happens there too, if so i will file a bug
<ScottL> the screenshot with the email looks like gnome3 with a dock at the bottom
<ailo> ScottL, Yeah. Seems like Luke has been spending sime time with both Gnome3 and Unity
<ailo> ScottL, It would be great to hear about his opinions
<ScottL> i wonder who luke is, have we heard from him before?
<ailo> I barely know anyone :)
<ScottL> heh ;)
<holstein> ScottL: i dont hate it
<holstein> i just dont know why the unity dock is gone
<holstein> why not just use it?
<holstein> its not heavy
<ailo> I think he's showing that cairo works with all of them
<ailo> Seems like he's pushing for a dock, anyway
<holstein> whatever, i know how to get rid of it :)
<ailo> I know that dock used to have a 2d and a 3d version, so it should work on all systems
<ailo> Got to try it now, just out of curiosity. Don't be mad holstein 
<holstein> nah, im not mad
<holstein> just wondering why we gotta have a doc
<ailo> It's not that bad, actually.. :|
<ScottL> holstein, it looked like they were all gnome3 to me, did i miss something?
<holstein> alright... i gotta run BBL
<ailo> ScottL, I'm not sure myself. Seemed that way to me too
<ailo> ScottL, The cairo dock is in deed configurable. And seems to work a little better now.
<ailo> ScottL, The problem with this dock is that it feels messy for me. The question is, as holstein stated, why use this, when there already is a panel for Unity. Would be better to improve the unity panel instead
<ailo> ScottL, Though, doing what you planned to do may perhaps be easier to do on one dock first, and later you can use the ideas to code into another dock later.
<ScottL> ailo, perhaps, but there is a lot to do in such a sort amount of time
<ScottL> i'm going to try to get in touch with cory this weekend and see if he made any progresss
<ScottL> hi Kokito 
<Kokito> hi ScottL & holstein 
<Kokito> and everybody else :)
<ScottL> ailo, if cory doesn't make appreciable progress soon we probably should see about having a backup plan with unity
<ailo> ScottL, I wouldn't be in a hurry with your idea of the dock. It's a great idea, that should be developed, sooner or later.
<ailo> No matter which UI
<ScottL> ailo, my original thought was that if cory could decide which dock he really wants then we talk to that developer
<ScottL> cairo just has so many dependencies, but i think it's the best as well
<ailo> ScottL, What to do if the backup plan fails?
<ailo> :P
<ScottL> ailo, ah, i don't really know
<ailo> Well, I'm just kidding. 
<ScottL> but hopefully within a month or so we know which direction we are heading and can approach any obstacles that present themselves
<ScottL> a month or so after natty is released
<ailo> ScottL, My plan is to go through everything that falktx has done, and do some kind of assessment on what Ubuntu Studio is lacking that he is doing, and think about how we could add that. Also, I will try to get the basic stuff working first, so we have a working package of a program that at least fixes the basic things, like my -controls did
<ScottL> ailo, that sounds like a really good plan :)
<ScottL> i'm going upstairs for a few minutes and then i'm going to bed
<ailo> ScottL, GN
<Kokito> re
<holstein> Kokito: RE:
<Kokito> hey holstein 
<holstein> hey
 * Kokito is eating dinner at 10:15PM...
<holstein> hehe
<holstein> im having a snackish-dinner at 1:15am
<Kokito> where are you located holstein ?
<holstein> northcarolina US
<Kokito> I'm in Tracy, CA
<Kokito> about 40 miles east of the Bay Area
<holstein> OK
<holstein> i was thinking the other way
<holstein> in timezones
<Kokito> hopefully no tornadoes in your area
<holstein> no, but there were some not too far from here
<holstein> ive checked in with most everyone i know over there though
<holstein> my girlfriend was driving home in the crazy rain the other day from them
<Kokito> that sounds scary
<ailo> Looong Friday today
<Kokito> TGIF! :)
<Kokito> oh oh... spilled a few drops of water on the mousepad, and the mouse is now acting weird :/
<ckontros> ScottL: Throw me back on the LP -dev team.
<holstein> ckontros: o/
 * ckontros waves.
 * holstein heading out to lunch... bbl
<ckontros> ScottL: If you grant me admin, I'll spruce up some of the LP graphics as well.
<ScottL> ckontros, right, will do that now
<ScottL> ckontros, add you to the team, where is it that i give you admin
<ckontros> IDK. They moved stuff round since last I did it. :P
<ScottL> nevermind, done
<ScottL> how'
<ScottL> how's the xfce stuff coming along
<ckontros> ScottL: I spent a bit of time today looking at how settings are done there. I'm going to start making some local branches to work in. I think I'll wait till 11.10 opens up to post them.
<ckontros> I'll also have to get you to play with the seeds at some point.
<ScottL> right, that's expected :)
<ScottL> ckontros, as far as you can see, are there an severely critical issues that might prevent us from moving towards xfce?  as far as you can see?
<ckontros> I think I'll try to see if TheMuso can gimmie a crash-course with the seeds.
<ckontros> Um, No. It's all package selection.
<ckontros> Biggest thing will be the work on live disks and task selection.
<ckontros> ScottL: Initially, I'm simply going to set up Studio's look, over Xubuntu. (i'm sure Ill tweak a few other minor things)
<ckontros> ScottL: Downloading the source pkg for "xubuntu-default-settings" will show you some of what I'm looking at. (though I think i didnt grab the most current one)
<ScottL> sorry, been in and out (mostly out) all day, my wife bought a 4' x 18' diameter above ground pool so i'm leveling edging bricks and having sand delivered
<ScottL> ckontros, i agree that getting the look right first, if we don't get live disk this release...oh well, there's always next
<ScottL> ckontros, but i truly believe creating a live disk is a good PR move
<ScottL> i believe that we "lose" more new users because of not having a live disc than how many we would "lose" due to poor performance of the live disc
<ScottL> of course that is pure speculation
<ScottL> but even the speculated "poor performance" is argumentative...some think the performance wouldn't be that bad, just loading apps would be slow
<holstein> the performance of the puredyne live CD is bangin
<holstein> thats based on ubuntu
<holstein> more that adequate for testing hardware
<ScottL> oh, i should also add the she only spent $300 on the pool :)   that's pretty bangin' too ;)
<ScottL> hi holstein, how are you doing?
<holstein> day off :)
<holstein> watching TV
<holstein> good times
<ScottL> holstein, i'm still very, very interested in doing some music together with gman and whoever else wants to
<ScottL> maybe pipeman will play drums
<holstein> i cant wail til internet speeds make netjack easy
<ailo> holstein, What's the speed of light over the Atlantic?
<ailo> holstein, Maybe we can jam some time
<holstein> hehe
<ScottL> holstein, i would be happy enough ftp'ing or sending .wav files or whatever, as long as we work on a song together
<holstein> yeah, thats totally fine
<holstein> im just looking forward to realtime 
<ScottL> i've got this funky, bluesy riff that i've been kicking around and i'll try to record it this weekend and make it available to you and guitarman
<ScottL> holstein, ^^^
<holstein> w00t
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-04-23
<Kokito> hello ubuntu studio fans. how is it going?
<holstein> not bad Kokito 
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-04-24
<Kokito> howdy
<mauri> my internet connettion with natty is tooooooo slow
<mauri> what i should do
<mauri> is there anyone that can help me
<ScottL> can someone help check some ISO's?  if these aren't checked then we don't release
<ScottL> http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/build/ubuntustudio/all
<ScottL> mainly need help with amd64, i'm working though the i386
<holstein> ScottL: i can hopefully do that tomorrow
<holstein> maybe even later today
<holstein> i'll check in and see who's doing what
<holstein> ScottL: im unclear about something from the UI thread thats going on
<holstein> Docky doesn't accomplish as much of the "panel replacement" requirements as AWN
<holstein> ^
<holstein> i feel like we are introducing a new element
<holstein> more so than replacing a panel
<holstein> since the top panel is staying in place
<holstein> and we are adding something to the current UI
<holstein> so its not really limited by past functionality
<ScottL> holstein, i'm not sure the top panel is really staying in place
<ScottL> i agree that having both the top panel and the dock would be doubly redundant
<holstein> oh yeah?
<holstein> this is a panel replacement?
<holstein> i havnet seen that screenshot yet
<holstein> with just a dock and no panel
<ScottL> cory posted one from imagebin (i think) that just had the dock at the bottom
<ScottL> i've been using something similar for a week or so and i'm digging it
<holstein> i'll have to search for it
<holstein> i was really liking the xubuntu default
<holstein> with a transparent panel as a dock
<ScottL> holstein, that is certainly an option
<ScottL> within the next month we need to solidify the UI layout
<ScottL> we seem to be over the hump with the xfce direction
<holstein> yeah, im going to keep quiet
<ScottL> holstein, nah, say what you want to say, if people don't voice their opinions then no one knows how everyone else feels
<holstein> i have, and its cool
<ScottL> holstein, which UI thread is that?  i want to mention that we should be making a decision during next month
<holstein> again, i know how to get rid of whatever dock
<ScottL> holstein, screenshots aside, if you had your choice (forget what is possible or not possible), what would you like the UI to be like?
<macinnisrr> ScottL; how's your unity experience been?
<ScottL> macinnisrr, ah, i
<ScottL> crap he's gone alrady
<ScottL> already even
<ScottL> holstein, i think i saw the posts you were talking about earlier
<holstein> ScottL: sorry i got busy there for a bit
<ScottL> no problem, holstein , i thought you were mad at me :P
<holstein> hehe
<holstein> well, i want to be cleat that i really dont care about the UI
<holstein> i can totally fade into the background on that one
<holstein> i just dont like docks
<ScottL> i'm curious why you don't like docks, don't they more or less function the same as a panel?
<holstein> sure
<ScottL> do you point quick launch icons on the panel?
<holstein> thats another reason why i dont get it
<holstein> i mean, theres a panel
<holstein> already there
<holstein> why add another piece of software?
<holstein> and the overhead?
<ScottL> hmmm, good point
<holstein> but, comparing the XFCE panel and AWN isnt really fair
<holstein> way more funcionality
<holstein> AND, i feel like its such an OSX look
<holstein> which is not bad
<holstein> just not my thing
<ScottL> especially if we get a "workflow" dock, that would really bring in new functionality :)
<holstein> ScottL: i like the idea of the workflows
<holstein> and the workflow dock is something unique
<holstein> pretty sure i wont use them
<holstein> BUT
<holstein> i think its awesome and unique
<holstein> and a great way for beginners to figure out what to do
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-04-16
<cccangel> astraljava... you around?
<len_> ScottL, aeolus works on my netbook... unless something has been fixed from yesterday.
<len_> phasex crashed still.
<len_> ScottL, it seems the synths that crashed are ones that try to deal with alsa and get pulse. It may be that because I had all pulse's outputs, including jack, turned off that this was a problem. I will have to try all this on my desktop... another day.
<len_> However, I was able to get all the sound generators to run.
<len_> Nope nothing is certain, they work sometimes and not others.
<shnatsel> Hello
<shnatsel> I just wanted to let you know that I'm hacking OS performance now
<shnatsel> I'm hacking ulatencyd right now, I think it could be of use to you. It's a handy way to delegate realtime privileges to select apps, and does lots of other useful things.
<shnatsel> I'm hacking on its proper integration, I mean.
<shnatsel> More info here: http://shnatsel.blogspot.com/2012/04/5-ideas-that-every-desktop-os-should.html
<len__> shnatsel, I like most of those things... but not the raising priority of the focused window. Windows has had something similar since win3. Anything with a window has had more priority than background stuff. (I know not quite the same) Doing machine control with a windows machine gets painful for that reason.... (I haven't worked with any win stuff since nt so things may be better. I don't know how current audio/midi apps are done, but it used to be
<len__>  that the UI and the engine were separate. The engine ran at high priority and the UI lower. Your idea would reverse that.
<len__> Having said that, I am also assuming the priority control could be turned off.
<shnatsel> len: well, increasing priority of the *currently focused* window shouldn't harm anything.
<shnatsel> len__: yes, sure
<len__> I think it would work well for most computer use.
<len__> I wouldn't want it on a server.... but then x is not a normal server app anyway.
<len__> ScottL first boot after install seems to be where all my sound gen problems were, on both machines.
<len__> That is boot the ISO live, install, then reboot. At that point I had problems with aeolus and phasex crashing. After reboot a second time all that went away.
<len__> I am thinking there are a bunch of things that ask to be installed right after first boot and that is what messes things up. I think I will mark the bugs created as invalid if nobody else has any problems.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-04-17
<ScottL> installling now, first testing install from menu, then i'll try boot live and then install
<ScottL> okay, installed direct (i.e. without live boot) and phasex and aeolus both started
<ScottL> i don't really do midi/synth stuff so i didn't know what to really do with them </embarrassed grin>
<ScottL> booting into live now and then will install
<ScottL> len__, both aeolus and phasex worked for me right after installing from live boot as well
<len__> ScottL, I think I will invalidate the bugs then. Maybe there has been a lib change from yesterday to today. Both of my boxes work now too.
<len> One of the bugs was already invalidated... not enough stack trace to mean anything. They did seem to think wrong lib version might be it though.
<len__> Most synths are easy to test ScottL, plug the virt keyboard to midi in and the output to jack... press some keys on the virt keys and hear sound ;-)
<len__> aeolus is harder, the manual has to have the midi input assigned to it and sounds selected.
<len__> aeolus is able to be played like a 3 manual pipe organ if you have three midi keyboards and a set of pedals.
<scott-work> astraljava: yeah, i was confused by the comment on the cinerella bug
<scott-work> but quite frankly, it's kinda not an appropriate comment either way
<astraljava> scott-work: True, wrong bug totally. :)
<Len-live> scott-work, astraljava, The volume indicator in the tray now launches pavucontrol. I think that is the last of the fixes before release? just testing?
<Len-live> I would like to do some more work on the menu some time. It would be nice to make it work right for as many apps as possible even if we don't ship them.
<scott-work> Len-live: agreed
<scott-work> anybody have ideas for UDS blueprints regarding ubuntu studio?
<scott-work> i can't at this time, last time we did the lowlatency kernel
<Len-live> sorry ... UDS = ?
<scott-work> but seeing as i think this cycle will probably be mainly small fixes to things done this cycle and documentation, i don't know what we would need
<scott-work> UDS = ubuntu developer summit
<scott-work> as project lead i am invited to go, not that i do too much really other than attend, learn, and coordinate some stuff
<Len-live> I think controls is the next thing.
<scott-work> last time i submitted a blueprint for getting the lowlatency kernel into the repo, which was approved and several of the kernel guys showed up for it and gave it some legitimacy :P
<scott-work> Len-live: what type of controls are you thinking about? 
<Len-live> What software to load, how to set up jack and other stuff, record mode...
<Len-live> workflows on all levels really.
<Len-live> I am finding with one of my machines a record mode will be needed if I am to do audio with it. NM seems to give me xruns.
<scott-work> i think getting together and brainstorming some larger goals for improving the user interfacing with ubuntu studio could be useful
<Len-live> You have a way with words :-)
<scott-work> step back and abstract a few things, make a list of possible goals, and see where that suggests we go
<knome> scott-work, btw, did you already see http://open.knome.fi/2012/04/16/looking-towards-xubuntu-q/ ?
<scott-work> lol, thanks
<scott-work> i think i did knome , but i probably should reread it if it is the same
<knome> :)
<scott-work> oh, maybe not, last time i saw a pdf
<knome> no, it's a more verbose onw
<knome> *one
<scott-work> good :) i look forward to reading it
<scott-work> i'm am excited about this coming cycle because it WON'T be an LTS version and we can take a few (more) risks :P
<knome> next thing i should paste you is the rewritten strategy document when i get to proof-read it one more time
<scott-work> yes, i would like to read it, very much so
<scott-work> i feel very strongly that the q-cycle should focus on getting some more foundational things done as a minimum;
<scott-work> 1. lowlatency maintenance (priority)
<scott-work> 2. user documentation
<Len-live> knome how hard would it be to change the xfce display app to include dual monitor placement?
<scott-work> 3. testing procedures/documentation
<knome> Len-live, i've no idea, i'm not a programmer
<Len-live> who would I talk to in xfce?
<scott-work> 4. refine existing work flows/develop new ones and update wiki documentation
<scott-work> and these are just the big items
<knome> Len-live, just ask #xfce-dev
<scott-work> i am concerned about other development however, i think this will keep my busy for a majority of the cycle
<scott-work> i realize that others will be interested in other things than documentation and such
<knome> i hope so
<knome> one of the items for xubuntu too is documentation
<knome> we partly overlap because of xfce
<scott-work> but i do feel that docuementation is a very important step for ubuntu studio at this point (in a rebuilding context)
<scott-work> knome: that is true, part of what i wanted to do was to document "normal desktop usage"
<scott-work> knome: but the largest part is to docuement the creative processes 
<scott-work> or work flows
<knome> sure
<scott-work> but there are also many smaller dev work, like adding #ubuntustudio channel to irc by default and others
<Len-live> scott-work, text or video documentation?
<scott-work> Len-live: really both
<scott-work> but i think text (in the wiki or our website) is paramount at this time, and quicker to do
<Len-live> I kinda sensed that was part of where your blog was headed.
<scott-work> yeah :)
<scott-work> i already recorded another one and should do another this weekend and then edit some of them
<scott-work> but first i really, really, REALLY need to work on the ubuntu studio website
<knome> ;]
<scott-work> i really doubt we will get it released for 12.04 release (not on the same day)
<scott-work> but it should be within weeks i would hope
<knome> i think it's a bit unrealistic now too
<scott-work> really?  :(
<knome> noting that even the IS won't get it up in a day
<knome> i mean, releasing parallel with 12.04
<knome> two weeks after is probably fine
<knome> if you can find time to work on it now
<scott-work> yeah, yeah, i'm okay with no ton the same day
<scott-work> how responsive do you think they will be? i.e. how soon after we say "all clear...go!" will they have it pushed out and live?
<scott-work> oops   s/no ton/not on
<knome> i have a ticket pending for four days now to update the xubuntu.org code
<knome> i suppose you could get a relatively high priority for the US site
<scott-work> i'm hoping they will do it within two weeks
<scott-work> two weeks of filing a ticket, that is
<knome> yeah, completely
<knome> the workload probably eases after release
<knome> so we can get back to better times
<scott-work> oh good :)
<knome> and of course, you can push for high priority on some items now and then
<scott-work> i have quite a few ideas as well, Len-live , about user improvements
<scott-work> knome: good to know
<knome> derivatives are never over ubuntu stuff, but you can get quite high
<scott-work> but i think q+1 cycle may be the best time for considerable attention to this
<scott-work> however, i don't want you to misunderstand my intentions or intents
 * scott-work got interrupted at work by work :P
<scott-work> Len-live: i realize that most people aren't into creating documentation and i defintely expect people to want to focus on what they want to do
<scott-work> so i expect people to focus on development work
<Len-live> As always, it is the way volunteer work is.
<Len-live>  Gotta pick kids up at school
<scott-work> however, i hope that we can pick and choose what we do and if we are doing brand new stuff that we try to make it fit a larger vision or plan
<knome> i'm off :)
<knome> see you later
<Len-live> Scott-work, I think that will happen if there is a well defined plan overall.
<Len-live> Some of it will be " I need this to do what I want" stuff too.
<Len-live> That is one of the reasons I want to make the menu work with the stuff we don't ship too.
<Len-live> I have heard a few " this is 2012 after all" remarks about using more resource hungry DEs and stuff, but one of my computers is less than a year old and the DE/OS fluff is giving it problems.
<Len-live> I get an xrun about every minute (I think from wireless rescan), but if I turn the wireless off, I get an xrun every 5 seconds.
<Len-live> This is with nothing happening, just jack and pulse running.
<scott-work> Len-live: to be honest i still wouldn't mind a "kill pulse" switch
<scott-work> that could be part of a record mode accessed from an icon on the top panel
<scott-work> okay, going homes
<Len-live> scott-work I would say that is part of the record mode.
<Len-live> C ja later
<scott-work> agreed
<ScottL> something else we probably need to consider is if there are any SRU's we might want to do quickly after release (if that is not frowned upon)
<micahg> ScottL: everyone does it :)
<micahg> you can start staging them now if you like
 * ScottL realizes he still didn't get the clock plugin correct
<micahg> if it's a deal breaker on the ISO, we can still respin
<ScottL> i was basing it on what xubuntu did but didn't get it proper
<micahg> Xubuntu switched to the datetime plugin
<ScottL> micahg, it's not a deal break, but not what was intended
<ScottL> micahg, yes, i was looking at a few revisions ago, plus i wanted to look at xubuntu and how the new clock works and consider it for us
<micahg> that's the problem with C/P in general, unless you know the context, it's easy to take a change that won't help
<ScottL> C/P?
<micahg> cut and paste
 * micahg probably used the wrong abbrv
<micahg> should've been C&P :)
<ScottL> oh, i didn't cut and paste, i was changing the value but i needed the other part
<ScottL> the variable name
<ScottL> BUT it does look like the plugin had been updated so that might have changed anyways from what was used previously
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-04-18
<astraljava> ScottL: I'd be on the same line with Len, really improving performance now that the key piece, the low-latency kernel is there. Make it possible to rid all the other latency-causing bits and pieces, when-needed, if possible. That would rule. 
<ttoine> hi everybody
<ttoine> ScottL, just to tell you I was very disapointed that Scribus is not included in Ubuntu Studio
<ttoine> did you find any time to write a bit of your long plan ?
<ttoine> scott-work, hi
<astraljava> Hi ttoine!
<scott-work> hi ttoine, i saw your comments and will reply but wanted to get a few things done first at work
<scott-work> ttoine: will you still be online in about thirty minutes
<scott-work> hi astraljava !
<ttoine> of course, take your time
<scott-work> hey, astraljava , what steps are left to implement the ubiquity plugin for 12.10?
<astraljava> scott-work: I forget now, and since I'm away from that machine which has the code (maybe I pushed to LP something already, I can't check ATM) I would have to read it through.
<astraljava> scott-work: Also I need to create the emulator environment first so that I can test it locally before asking for images to have it and test there instead, that's just not good practice.
<astraljava> scott-work: That will take a while, as I'm moving officially only in 1.5 weeks, but then travelling on business for a bit.
<ttoine> astraljava, how do you do that... you are always connected with the same nickname, wherever is the place you are and the device you use...
<astraljava> scott-work: There is a chance though that I'll get the RAM on this laptop (MacBook Pro) doubled, in which case I can easily run Studio in Parallels.
<astraljava> ttoine: I have my IRC running on a service provider's shell account.
<astraljava> ttoine: screen + weechat, so if a machine has terminal (xterm/gnome-terminal/konsole etc.), I can do IRC. :)
<ttoine> you are a true geek ;-)
<astraljava> I'll take that as a compliment, but I'm still learning. :)
<ttoine> of course it is a compliment ;-)
<astraljava> Interesting news, cinelerra has done an awesome job re: license in the source files, and it might be possible to include it in the distros now. I will have to talk to Alessio about it.
<ttoine> astraljava, good news
<scott-work> ttoine: my apologies.  work became a little more exciting and demanding this morning
<ttoine> no problem
<scott-work> ttoine: i don't mean to sound indifferent or callous, but the simple answer the exclusion of scribus is because we lacked a documented work flow
<ttoine> scott-work, scrybus is a huge thing to learn and explain
<scott-work> ttoine: i made a decision that i wanted to give users a complete toolchain rather than collection or library of disparate applications
<scott-work> ttoine: the goal would be to clearly identify a goal or task and then provide the documentation showing the applications needed for it
<scott-work> not necessarily a HowTo for the application, but just documentation just to show that we can adequately provide the tools necessary
<scott-work> ttoine: i should note that i am not against including scribus, on the contrary, i think it _should_ be included
<scott-work> but i lacked the knowledge to include it and feel comfortable that i was not excluding other applications required to complete faciliate users in desktop publishing
<ttoine> ok
<ttoine> scott-work, speaking about missing application, is gparted again in the live dvd ? I didn't check the daily build
<len> ttoine, yes it is now there.
<ttoine> len, thanks
<scott-work> ttoine: yes, i think astraljava had added it (or perhaps i did)
<ttoine> scott-work, ubuntu is provinding a color management tool in the preferences
<ttoine> This is not there in Ubuntu Studio
<scott-work> ttoine: do you know enough about scribus and desktop publishing (or know someone who does) and would add some documentation to the work flows wiki page ?
<len> ttoine, I think the other side to what is and isn't in US is that we are still figuring out the live DVD thing. For now we have lost the ability to just load the software for the workflows the user needs/wants.
<ttoine> scott-work, as I said, Scribus is very heavy to use. But as there is no other way in Linux to generate cmyk documents, I use when a printing company don't want png or svg files...
<ttoine> len, ok.
<len> ttoine, I think we do want to have an application sort of like software center, but artist centered that will load unload US metas after the system install.
<len> I personally, would like a meta that loads the normal desktop apps (office, games, etc) that we don't ship. I agree with not shipping these things, but for my use I need them.
<ttoine> len, me too, and a lot of people too. That would be a good thing, but I guess that is not possible at the moment
<len> ttoine, not for this release.  But there is nothing stopping someone from putting one together even if it is not branded.
<scott-work> ttoine: re: color managment tool - i do not know what they are using but will look into it, but also we are shipping argyle and something else that i cannot remember currently
<scott-work> len: i wanted to follow up with our conversation yesterday about improvements for next cycle
<scott-work> len:  ubuntu studio is like water, it can take whatever shape is desired
<scott-work> len: so i'm not worried about ubuntu studio
<len> ttoine, After playing around with the synths in US I have found it is real easy to overload my system with only one synth being played by an external keyboard. I could see having a second system just for sound generation and would want no extra fluff.
<ttoine> len, color management will be used by people in the graphics workflow
<scott-work> len: but i would worry about you feeling upset if you spend a bunch of time creating something that ended up not being used later on
<len> scott-work ok
<scott-work> len: this is why i was expousing caution yesterday in what we do in the next cycle and making sure it has a vision behind it that supports future endeavours
<len>  There is stuff that I do just so the idea can be seen. I think my workflow app is like that. I am thinking tcl/tk may not be the best way to do that.
 * scott-work keeps getting pulled into meeting and might be making statements that really don't all tie together today :/
<len> Anyway, I have to go to work now, bye bye
<scott-work> len: i like the things i've seen so far from you, i have a list of other ideas i have that might spark other ideas from you as well, i would like to share them soon, after i organize it a little better, on the mailing list
<scott-work> ttoine: i will download vanilla ubuntu and see about the colour management tool
<ttoine> scott-work, ok. it is a very simple tool, but people who have a expensive screen or, just taking care about their graphics rendering can use it
<scott-work> ttoine: do you know what application or tool name it is?
<scott-work> i've been told to properly calibrate moniters you will need a piece of hardware or a physical chart with printed colour on it
<ttoine> scott-work, actually, this is in the preferences manager of vanilla ubuntu
<ttoine> scott-work, yes, true. But some monitor,  scanner and printers are calibrated by the manufacturer, and so a icc or icm file is provided
<scott-work> okay
<ttoine> of course, you can generate a profile if you have the hardware. That is why it is not very interessant to have argyle in US for every users
<scott-work> when we added argyll we also included some package that supplied icc files as well, the delta between vanilla and ubuntu studio might not be too great in this aspect
<ttoine> scott-work, for example, eizo monitors, or high ends epson printers
<scott-work> hehe, the more i learn about stuff the more i realize i have more to learn :P
<ttoine> scott-work, exactly the same to me
<scott-work> :)
<ttoine> scott-work, I have to create some communication stuff for my business (cards, flyers, etc...) but it is a mess to do it with free software
<scott-work> ttoine: in what aspects?
<ttoine> If I were rich, I would pay developper to add functionnalities to inkscape, instead of having to use scribus
<ttoine> scott-work, a printing company want a cmjn document (pdf, jpg, tiff, eps, ...)
<ttoine> gimp and inkscape can't manage to export in cmjn
<ttoine> I just saw that Krita can work in native cmjn so I will have a look at it
<ttoine> and what is worse, is that Inkscape interated color management and printing preview works in Windows and osX, but not in Linux...
<ttoine> scott-work, there are other bugs with the menu, I just have to create a bug against ubuntu-menu ?
<scott-work> ttoine:  against ubuntustudio-default-settings would be preferrable, please
<scott-work> -default-settings is where the code for the menu is now located
<ttoine> ok
<scott-work> thanks :)
<ttoine> sorry, i didn't remember, that's why I asked
<astraljava> ttoine: Talk to knome, he knows something about business cards etc.
<astraljava> Well I'm not sure he knows anything, but he does them nonetheless.
<astraljava> :p
<ttoine> astraljava, yes, he told me that he know well graphic stuff
<ttoine> but this is not the same to do graphic stuff for screen or for printing
<ttoine> It is very easy to create graphics in rgb mode (for screen) with Ubuntu. however, this is a real problem in cmyk
<astraljava> ttoine: But you mentioned business cards, right? He does those, and other printed materials. Not just for computer screens.
<ttoine> astraljava, ok, as soon as I see him online, I will speak with him about that problem
<astraljava> ttoine: He's here right now. Just, you know, ping him with your question. :)
<ttoine> knome, ping ? what is the way you use to generate a cmjn pdf for printing ?
<ttoine> astraljava, knome is here but away, no ?
<scott-work> i still need to send some PR out for ubuntu studio 12.04 LTS :/
<ttoine> PR ?
<scott-work> linux outlaws, reddit (maybe?), distrowatch, mailing list, some other places i can't hink of right now
<scott-work> public relations
<scott-work> publicize the release
<ttoine> ok
<astraljava> ttoine: Well, lots of us keep the session open, so we may appear to be online, but we're away from keyboard, which is what seems to be the case here. He'll still respond to you when he comes back, so that's why leaving "messages" is always better than just plain pinging.
<ttoine> astraljava, ok
<astraljava> And by messages here I meant prefixing with the nick, but still  in the channel, not a direct /msg or /query.
<astraljava> Probably you knew what I meant, but just making sure.
<astraljava> Alright, starving now, so back later.
<len> ttoine, there are actually quite a few things that need to be done to the menu. I think we are stuck with it for 12.04 rel. but I would think it would be ok to backport fixes. We need to go through a lot of the software we don't ship and make sure they would end up in the right place on the menu should a user install them later.
<ttoine> len, ok. My bug report was not intended to be fixed asap, but more in the aim to be noticed
<len> I would also like to add whatever stuff is needed so that it would also work in a gnome session.
<len> ttoine I was not trying to discourage you from a bug report/fix. just mentioning there is a lot to do.
<ttoine> len, I know that ;-)
<ttoine> that's why LP can manage priorities
<len> I tried installing gnome 3 with the new shell to try out... it didn't work for me I just got the same as gnome classic... but I did notice that the menu has all the sound stuff in one menu... very hard to find anything.
<micahg> len: you need to install the gnome-shell for package for the shell
<scott-work> ttoine: i actually intended those (non-audio) packages within the video menu, they are part of the video work flow
<scott-work> this doesn't make it "right", but it was intended nonetheless :P
<len> micahg, I did. I ended up with three new session choices: Gnome, classic and classic 2d
<len> I figured the Gnome session should have had shell, but it looked like the classic.
<len> It may be something to do with my nvidia card which is running the free driver.
<len> I think gnome shell requires hardware graphics my driver may not support.
<micahg> yes, that's possible
<micahg> it's like unity 3D in that regard
<len> The web page I was just looking at seems to say that too. No big deal, it was more a curiosity thing than anything else.
<len> I have never been much of a graphics person... I got the (old) card I did because it was cheap at the time.
<ttoine> len, with the free driver gnome shell should work
<len> I will try again... later.
<astraljava> ScottL: Will you take care of bug #984970? I promise I'll study the menu structure for the next cycle. :)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 984970 in ubuntustudio-default-settings (Ubuntu) "Audacity and Inkscape are in the video production menu" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/984970
<astraljava> ScottL: I'll also give bug #966539 to you gladly.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 966539 in ubuntustudio-default-settings (Ubuntu) "Mudita24 and xfcemixer should not be in the "Media playback" submenu" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/966539
<len> micahg, gnome settings->details->graphics says "driver unknown", "experience fallback"
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-04-19
<ScottL> astraljava, i had intended audacity and inkscape to be in the video production submenu, because they are part of the video production
<astraljava> Ahh... okay then. The bug can then be marked as invalid.
<ailo> ScottL: I don't see how Audacity qualifies as being categorized for video production. What is your thinking on that
<ailo> Functionally, it is an audio editor. Nothing elsxe
<ailo> This might be something that has come out of thinking about workflows
<ailo> One should differentiate between two things: 1. the function(s) an application has, 2. What they can be used for
<ailo> Searching for an application is either done by name, or function first
<ailo> To make use of workflows, outside of simple documentation, one would need to add new functions for that. In other words, code an app, or several apps
<ailo> I may be able to open my beer bottle using a spoon, but that doesn't make the spoon a bottle opener
<ScottL> ailo, my thinking is that audacity is used to trim the audio for video production
<ScottL> in this case the audio is a subset of the video production
<ScottL> i'm not saying this perspective is perfect, and if everyone absolutely hates it i will certainly change it back
<ScottL> however, i think it certainly supports the work flow idea (i.e. putting all the tools you need in a single place)
<ailo> ScottL: The question is, should you be using the application menu for workflows? The problem you face is that the menu gets overpopulated
<ailo> I still think the first place to start what workflows is concerned is documentation
<len_> ailo which is the problem we were trying to solve with sub menus...
<len_> I don't think menus is the place to do workflows...
<len_> duplicating items for workflows in the main menu is of limited value because the menu closes after each selection.
<len_> so you have to choose the same workflow over and over.
<ailo> I agree. I think the menu should have programs categorized by their function alone
<len_> That is why a panel per workflow makes more sense
<ailo> For audio, there's session management. I think that is a great way to work with workflows
<len_> ailo, I think Scott is working with what he has... but the menu is not the right tool.
<ailo> One could easily code apps for other type of workflows as well
<ailo> In lack of workflow-apps, the best place to be dealing with workflows is docs
<len_> Yes I think that is the direction we need to go. That was what my attempt at a workflow app was all about to show what kind of thing we need.
<len_> Hey scott-work, you just miss ed it all...
<scott-work> i'll check the logs
<scott-work> i expected some discussion :P
<scott-work> eh, log hasn't caught up yet
<len_> we were saying that the menu is probably not the place to set workflows. because the menu closes after each selection anyway.
<len_> The log will catch up in about 15min.
<scott-work> agreed about the menu closing
<scott-work> but i still think it makes sense to focus on 'video production' and having the tools in one place
<len_> So it has to be opened and the workflow selected and then the app each time.
<scott-work> here's my real deal though
<scott-work> what if you only do video?
<scott-work> what if you haven't explored all the other submenus
<scott-work> ?
<scott-work> if you want to do one thing (video, podcast), are we really expecting them to know that inkscape is udner graphics and audacity is under audio?
<scott-work> OR, would it not offend people to put those tools that are required for that workflow under it's own submenu?
<len_> If I was doing video and needed some audio, I would certainly look under audio.
<scott-work> but what if you are a new user?  you don't know audacity is the application that we have chosen for editing audio for video or podcast
<ailo> scott-work: If you see a bunch of apps under video, wouldn't you think that they are all for video?
<ailo> scott-work: And if you don't know what apps to use: documentation
<ailo> Documentation is the first step for workflows
<holstein> brasero is one i always had a hard time finding, in normal ubuntu
<len_> That makes more sense, said that way. I think something like awn hacked to show only things needed per workflow would be better.
<scott-work> len_: i really, really agree with that statement
<scott-work> holstein: good point
<ailo> I believe to make use of workflows on the desktop, you need apps that deal only with workflows. 
<holstein> if i want to copy a downloaded iso, which has *nothing* to do with audio, i go there
<holstein> however, i have to say, audacity *is* an audio app
<holstein> it doesnt do anything for video
<scott-work> ailo: documentation is very important, but it is not as accessbile to everyone as having the tools contextually located in the menus
<scott-work> holstein: it is used to edit audio for the vidoe
<holstein> yup
<holstein> not edti video though
<holstein> edit*
<scott-work> again, editing audio is part of the video work flow
<holstein> i mean, put it where you want, and i'll get with you on whatever
<len_> holstein, there are also video apps that lack any audio.
<holstein> but, its an audio app, and i think thats where folks will look
<scott-work> holstein: but what if you don't really do audio, you want to do video and you need to edit some audio and make a fancy intro screen?  why not have those tools also located in the 'video' menu?
<scott-work> i'm quite surprised by what i perceive is a simple arguement against this, which only seems to be "it doesn't belong there"
<holstein> not sure... i might look in the audio tab to edit audio
<holstein> just natrually
<scott-work> audacity is also under the audio tab
<holstein> i mean, just cause i want to put a graphic on my CD case doesnt mean i need GIMP in the audio tab
<holstein> thats part of the audio production workflow for some
<holstein> and i could come up with a simialr argument
<holstein> not audio applications do album graphics
<holstein> do we need that in the audio tab?
<len_> holstein, as a video editor I look in the audio menu which is full of stuff.. which one do I choose? If I notice something that is also in the video menu I realize that is the one most likely to work.
<holstein> maybe... but the GIMP doesnt go there
<holstein> again, im with you guys... im just saying.. audactiy is an audio application
<len_> Ja, workflow app is needed. It would group things together instead of the main menu.
<holstein> yeah.. seperate
<ailo> The problem with putting the same apps in multiple places is that the menu gets overpopulated and confused
<holstein> i think its challenging to predict who needs what where and why
<ailo> And tailoring workflows, that aren't customizable is impossible
<holstein> we just gotta go with one, and make it happen
<ailo> They won't suit any one person
<holstein> yeah
<holstein> im afraid folks wont "take" to it
<holstein> and it'll be another thing to maintain
<ailo> The menu works best if you categorize by function. That's what people expect
<len_> In other news... just before irun away, I found out something (by accident) with pulse and jack.
<holstein> but, i think having it seperate from the main menu is key
<len_> With pulse bridged to jack, pulse is running at 10%cpu, but if pulse doesn't happen to set up jacksink pulse adds 0%cpu
<len_> It may be easier to turn off the sink than turn off pulse.
<len_> Anyway, see you later, its work time.
<len_> scott-work, irc logs are up to date.
<ttoine> knome, astraljava told me that you do business cards, etc... can you tell me what you are using to generate a prepress PDF ??
<ailo> gnome-shell and unity adds a new dimension to the menu with the search function. You search by tags or part of the name, but the tags are still function based. I suppose it might be possible to add a tag for workflows, but that doesn't seem like an optimal solution. It would be much better to have a workflow tab, or even a workflow wizard, that let's you start any kind of project (video, audio, graphics) and help you choose the
<ailo> Sorry, I meant to say "it would be much better to have a workflow panel"
<knome> ttoine, photoshop ;]
<ailo> knome: Waat. Not GIMP?
<ttoine> knome, ok
<knome> nope, i don't use GIMP at all, really
<knome> GIMP doesn
<knome> 't support CMYK afaik
<ttoine> ailo, only krita and scribus work with printing colors
<ttoine> So I will have to learn Scribus ;-)
<knome> and inkscape supports at least "cmyk" too, but i don't know how that goes with printing
<ttoine> knome, inkscape can not export in cmyk colors
<ailo> Too bad. I read that GIMP can support cmyk to a degree, but perhaps that's not enough
<ttoine> scott-work, ristretto is not powerfull enough to open large jpeg file (more than 2,5Mb)
<scott-work> eh, ttoine left already
<scott-work> sorry i left, i have been having computer problems at work and needed IT to reinstall some things
<ttoine> hop
<scott-work> ttoine: hi, i saw your comment about risettro
<ttoine> I finally reinstalled vanilla ubuntu : bright theme, integrated color management, and not so heavy desktop even on an old laptop
<ttoine> scott-work, and most of everything, I was tired to have to reset the brighness of my laptop screen every reboot
<scott-work> ttoine: do you have a suggestion as an image viewer?
<ttoine> the vanilla ubuntu image viewer is good
<ttoine> I mean for heavy jpeg, of course
<ttoine> and it can read too cmyk tiff, etc...
<ttoine> eyeofgnome it is
<ttoine> what is strange with inkscape in Ubuntu is that there is a disclaimer in the color management preferences : "it is not activated in this version"
<scott-work> i think we included eog (eye of gnome) previously, maybe we should go back to it then
<ttoine> scott-work, http://lprof.sourceforge.net/ is the best project for color management at the moment
<ttoine> it has a gui
<scott-work> it appears that lprof is in precise
<ttoine> yes
<ttoine> it should replace argyle
<micahg> it's seen no upstream movement in Ubuntu  since hardy or Debian since lenny, whereas argyll has
<ttoine> micahg, but argyle is command line...
<micahg> I can't speak to that point
<len_> scott-work, is todays iso a prerelease? Should we be testing it as that?
<len_> I notice qatracker has replaced "daily" with "pre-release".
<len_> hmm, 1204 does not have zsync shipped.
<scott-work> len_: yes, today is the RC or release candidate
<scott-work> kinda the last milestone chance to catch a major error
<len_> But not likely much difference from yesterday. I'll see what I can find.
<micahg> len_: there's another respin coming
<len_> today?
<micahg> yes
<len_> Ok I won't print the one I just got then.
<len_> What time?
<micahg> no idea, hopefully w/in a few hours
<len_> OK. good enough
<micahg> the ISOs will register in #ubuntu-release when they're posted
<micahg> ah, they're posted in #ubuntu-testing as well (which might be more appropriate for you)
<len_> I can monitor one as easy as the other.
<micahg> there's probably a lot more discussion in -release vs -testing
<len_> I can see that.
<len_> how long will we have for testing?
<micahg> well, final chance to respin would be next wed
<micahg> the sooner the better obviously
<len_> micahg, so a few days anyway, I guess the thing to do is make sure it runs and edit the report as testing continues?
<micahg> idk, I've not been so involved in ISO testing, but whatever tests have been run in the past I guess
<len_> micahg the iso has been runnable for a while. More testing would be nice... but anything we find is likely to be next cycle fix I am guessing.
<scott-work> should we post something at reddit about the new ubuntu studio release?
<scott-work> i'm really pretty proud and excited about this release
<scott-work> leaving work though, i'll catch you at home
<ttoine> ScottL, you should have a look at http://dispcalgui.hoech.net/ this a gui for aguile
<ttoine> a package for ubuntu is available
<ttoine> it seems that a ubuntu team is working on integrating a UI for Argyll in gnome-color-management
<ttoine> I can't find if it will be fixed in Precise, but the blueprint is on good way to be completed
<ttoine> and now, going to sleep
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-04-20
<len_> New ISOs are up.
<ScottL> tested 64bit but i'll report in themorning
<ScottL> oh crap, he meant mor eimage are up :P
<astraljava> Yeah. I'll be posting about this in a few hours.
<micahg> ScottL: yes, there were 3 respins today :)
<len> pre-release run live and installed... results in qa tracker.
<len> I found tonight that to get good results with my audio, I have to force the order of module load so that my d66 gets loaded before the ensoniq. I may try them in different slots too... though the NIC stays where it is as it is sharing with a usb port, ok for NIC, but not for sound card.
<len> good night
<ttoine> hop
<astraljava> o/
<scott-work> ttoine: do you have a final suggestion for colour management for the next cycle?
<scott-work> i wish to note it in my everynote notes
<scott-work> astraljava: good afternoon (?), how are you doing, my friend?
<scott-work> ..
<scott-work> oh, oh, oh, i want to send out publicity notices and i wanted input from people on what topics to mention for the improvements/features of 12.04
<ttoine> scott-work, I have to study a bit more the problem. It seems that Ubuntu is leading the way using Gnome Color Management
<scott-work> ttoine: i shall put a note to the effect that we should consider changing applications and that you are researching it then :)
<scott-work> ..
<scott-work> for the publicity, this is what i have right now:
<scott-work> live dvd
<scott-work> lowlatency kernel as default
<scott-work> transition to xfce
<scott-work> new art work
<scott-work> pulse asudio <-> jack bridging
<scott-work> new theme/font
<scott-work> small core of functional (and documented) work flows
<scott-work> added photography work flow
<scott-work> app selection base on work flows
<scott-work> revised common desktop applications
<scott-work> website (?)
<scott-work> ..
<scott-work> anything i am forgetting?  anything people think i shouldn't say?  change some of the wording?
<scott-work> any input is helpful :)
<astraljava> scott-work: Really tired, so am about to quickly run to the grocery store after the release meeting, and then take a long nap.
<astraljava> scott-work: Otherwise great, the new job seems interesting.
<ttoine> scott-work, it is ok for me. I am going to follow the problem of color-management. I think the bug of the current vanilla gui will not be solved in Precise. And there is to check that the solution choosen by Ubuntu is supported by floss softwares
<ttoine> scott-work, you should say that the Ubuntu Studio project will follow from a long plan
<ttoine> ;-)
<scott-work> ttoine: good point!
<ttoine> scott-work, would it be possible to create a adobe-icc package on the same base than the msttcorefont package ?
<ttoine> I mean, an empty package with end user licence to accept, and then, it download the windows archive and extract it ?
<scott-work> ttoine: hmmm, i do not know.  i am not really any expert on licensing, especially on adobe licenses.
<ttoine> Can you note that I have to check that too ;-) ?
<scott-work> ttoine: absolutely :)
<ttoine> about licence, I had a chat with Steinberg France and Europe about finding a way to distibute vst
<ttoine> I had to find and check most of licence for alsa-firmware for medibuntu
<ttoine> I think I can handle that
<ttoine> have to go.
<astraljava> scott-work: Let's have a meeting on Sunday, we need to make sure everything's right, and maybe you need a hand with the release notes?
<astraljava> I'll be AFK for a while now.
<scott-work> astraljava: agreed :)
<ttoine> scott-work, tell me if you want me to translate the release note in french
<len> Wow, I thought we would have some time to test before the next respin... but it looks like two in one day.
<len> hold off on testing/downloading ISOs.
<micahg> len: and the ones that were just respun are no good :)
<len> Thats what I'm seeing, but our's didn't make it anyway.
<len> They are still the ones from early this morning... last night for me.
<len> The test tracker has been reverted to the ISO from april20 at about 3am
<len> Everything should work besides upgrades.
<len> Anyway, I've oked the 32bit ones.
<len> holstein, just so you know. daily 1204 will install fine, but there is no working upgrade just now.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-04-21
<ScottL> i'm burning the 64bit iso's now
<ScottL> test and report and now i see new images this morning :P
<astraljava> That's why I am only now about to send the message to the lists, it's usually like this; new re-spins are made for the first few days.
<ScottL> astraljava, hehe, i misread your statement at first and had a completely different reply :P  but of course, you are completely correct :)
<ScottL> astraljava, do you mean at all milestones?  or just for RC?
<astraljava> It happens every time. :)
<len> Second day in a row my desktop has been locked/hung/crashed when I woke up.
<len> Monitor was still on so there was still Hsync on the video card.
<len> Time to try another iso.
<len> For those interesting in CPU cycles, I did some playing with pulse last night.
<len> It seems to big pig on cpu cycles as far as pulse is concerned is the jacksink.
<len> When I unload module-jackdbus-detect from pulse, pulse audio vanishes off the bottom of top's display.
<len> cpu load drops by half (with jack and pulse at idle) or more.
 * len is less happy with network manager
<ScottL> len, sounds like a "record mode" sans pulse still might be a good thing
<len> ScottL it looks trivial to do and restore.
<len> I would leave pulse running... it makes respawn a non-issue, but unload the jack module as that locks pulse to jack's latency.
<len>  Then just a pulse-audio --kill restores pulse to normal.
<len> Basically the output of "pactl list short modules" has to be scanned to find the index of module-jackdbus-detect and then "pactl unload-module index" to go into record.
<len> This can all be done in user space.
<len> ScottL, at higher latency (p1024 for example) pulse cpu cycles are a non-issue. As latency goes down PA uses more cpu cycles till p128 where it uses about the same as jackd and at p64 it seems to use 125% or so what jack uses.
<len> ScottL, to be honest, I am still just feeling my way through all this. Certainly for live work latency needs to be as low as the hardware will handle. I assume for recording it would be somewhat higher though.
<len> Also, I am sure my hardware is not set optimally nor my system settings.
 * len is thinking my system hang(s) may have been from leaving jackd running 
<len> reboot
<ailo> It's getting chaotic the way apps are being made dependant on either jackd1 or jackd2
<ailo> Can't even start jackd1 with qjackctl as it seems
<len-dt> ailo, even if an app is dependant on J1, all that means is it has to install jack1. Jack2 or jackdbus is still there and a jack1 app should still work with jackd 2 as the calls are the same... at least that is what the jackd web page seems to be saying.
<ailo> len-dt: Nope. jackd1 conflicts with jackd2
<ailo> This is not a jack1/jack2 problem though. It's a packaging problem
<ailo> It seems people are moving towards using jack2 as default, but some things still depend on jack1
<ailo> It is true that starting jack1 is done the same way as starting jack2
<ailo> Except for the dbus thing
<ailo> Which is jack2 only
<len-dt> ailo, would having a replaces in jack2 work?
<ailo> replaces?
<len-dt> we need dbus for PA-jack bridging
<len-dt> It seems to me a package can be set up to say it replaces something else.
<ailo> As things are now, everything is set up for jack2, so the whole audio part of the system more or less gets broken without jack2
<ailo> I was installing a package which depended on jack1, which it isn't supposed to be doing
<ailo> Not in official repo though
<len-dt> jack3 should be fun
<ailo> But, there are some packages in the official repo that depend on jack1 dev libs
<len-dt> Those ones should be bugged. 
<ailo> And to install those, you also need to install jack1 and remove jack2
<len-dt> removing jack2 would also uninstall everything that depends on it, no?
<ailo> It happened to me before, but not this time
<ailo> But I got tons of warning messages
<ailo> It's not pretty
<len-dt> It seems to me depends can be "a or b", so all jack depends should be "jack1 or jack2"
<len-dt> I have heard there are some systems where jack1 is still more stable.
<ailo> It depends on the client
<ailo> puredata did not work well with jack2 before
<ailo> Could be jack2 has more problems starting and stopping too
<len-dt> Thats one app I have only tested enough to see it loads/runs but not done anything with it.
<ailo> There doesn't seem to be any problems now
<ailo> I haven't tested puredata as much though. I use pd-extended, which is yet not in the official repo
<len-dt> Jack 2 starts and stops ok, but the communication through dbus sometimes times out.
<len-dt> So the sender of the start/stop request doesn't know that things worked ok.
<len-dt> This happens with both qjackctl and jack_control
<ailo> len-dt: Here's the bug I reported on that behaviour. Seems like David H has been working on fixing it https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/jackd2/+bug/956438
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 956438 in jackd2 (Ubuntu) "qjackctl unable to stop jackd2" [Undecided,Triaged]
<ailo> I was thinking about earlier behaviour though, when it came to jack2 being less reliable
<ailo> Doesn't seem like those problems exist anymore
<ailo> As of Precise
<ScottL> ailo, did you see that david h. has posted on this and on the jack-dev mailing list
<ailo> ScottL: Yes. Seems like he's working on it
<len-dt> Good. ScottL, ailo, I have read that seq midi in jack is static. That is it only bridges midi ports that are available when jackd starts. Any syth started after jack doesn't get bridged. Is this true?
<len-dt> Nope, I just tested it. Starting vert/key and hexter show up bridged
<len-dt> Can't tell what they are though as they are not named anything useful.
<ailo> I have some gig files I'd like to use with a sampler, so I tried installing linux-sampler as a deb. Compiling now
<ailo> It needs jack1 dev libs
<ailo> One good thing about OSS was that with puredata you could use multiple sound devices of different sorts at the same time
<ailo> There was syncing errors of course
<ailo> Easily solved with spdif syncing on cards that support it
<len-dt> ailo, specimen doesn't work for you?
 * len-dt hasn't done sampling.
<ailo> len-dt: Haven't tried it, but does it load gig files?
<len-dt> I don't know. .. I don't know what a gig file is TBH. I am assuming it has a sample and whatever info needed to make that sample work (loop points, adrs, etc)
<ailo> Yeah, except a gig file can be a few gigabytes large
<len-dt> ailo, makes sense if the patch has more than one sample.
<ailo> linux-sampler is the only good tool for gig files that I know of
<len-dt> is there a problem with adding it to 12.10?
<ailo> license issues
<len-dt> I thought I remembered something like that.
<ailo> It's GPL, with an added extra restriction to make it impossible to add it to hardware, like hardware samplers and such
<len-dt> specimen seems to be pretty simple.. looks like single sample stuff.
<ailo> It has a frontend called qsampler, and all of it's dependencies do exist in the main repo, so you only need to build linux-sampler, which is a server
<len-dt> ailo, if I add that to my computer and use it for performance my computer becomes a hardware sampler...
<ailo> Yeah, but you know, like when you sell it to someone
<ailo> The restriction makes it non-free so none of the major distros are able to have it in their repos
<ailo> You'll find it in some of the lesser audio orientated distros
<ailo> Like KXStudio
<ailo> Damn, it doesn't compile
<len-dt> ailo, so it can't be included free on a cd/dvd if that cd/dvd is charged for even if the charge is just for copying.
<ailo> len-dt: I haven't read the license, just read about it
<ailo> len-dt: "LinuxSampler is licensed under the GNU GPL with the exception that USAGE of the source code, libraries and applications FOR COMMERCIAL HARDWARE OR SOFTWARE PRODUCTS IS NOT ALLOWED without prior written permission by the LinuxSampler authors. If you have questions on the subject, that are not yet covered by the FAQ, please contact us. "
<len-dt> I can see why it isn't in ubuntu
<ailo> It's been around for a long time
<len-dt> ailo, the problem with that kind of lic. is that once you put it on any new versions (derivatives) have to have the the same lic. so the author can't change it.
<len-dt> though I guess they could give themselves written permission.
<ailo> Ok, got it. The svn was not the same as the tarball they keep for download
<ailo> I don't know much about svn, but it must have been a dev version I tried compiling just now
<len-dt> ailo ... another topic, it looks like ubuntu loads any kernel modules that may be needed. My netbook has modules for par port  and serial ports which it doesn't have. The desktop has those turned of in bios and they are still loaded too. Yet many other modules only get loaded if needed.
<len-dt> s/of/off/
<ailo> Never looked into that, but whenever something should be plug/play at least then you'd like to have that
<ailo> Would be interesting to see if it has any performance diffs at all
<len-dt> Only on low mem machines, which seems to be anything under 2G any more.
 * astraljava installs CentOS.
<len-dt> astraljava... on the CentOS page what do they mean by x86_64? does that mean an AMD64 would not work?
<astraljava> Nah, that's the same, I believe. Just different terminology.
<len-dt> thks, I'll remember.
<len-dt> RH based then?
<ailo> It should be a clone of RH more or less, no?
<astraljava> Yeah. This is purely work-related, not interested otherwise at all. :)
<ailo> I was using it for a while a couple of years ago
<ailo> If comparing that to Fedora, it does feel like comparing Debian to Ubuntu a bit. Even though Fedora isn't as polished as Ubuntu
<len-dt> Their repos are on a RH system, but they try really hard never to say red hat.
<astraljava> Well there's a distinct difference there.
<astraljava> Fedora is sort of a test bed for Red Hat in some features.
<ailo> It is
<ailo> And Ubuntu is a company
<astraljava> No.
<astraljava> Canonical is the company.
<astraljava> Ubuntu is the OS.
<ailo> You know what I mean
<astraljava> Heheh. :)
<astraljava> Yeah but it's very different here, Ubuntu relies heavily on Debian, which _isn't_ a company, as where Fedora needs Red Hat, which _is_ the company.
<astraljava> Very different scenery.
<ailo> I did say "a bit"
<len-dt> I haven't really tried any of the RH stuff for a long time, back when I was using Slackware I tried it but found it less friendly.
<ailo> And the bit is in the experience
<astraljava> Yep, agreed.
<astraljava> Somehow I've never felt comfortable with the RH-based distros.
<astraljava> Can't really put my finger on it, but just don't like them that much.
<ailo> I found yum to be slow
<len-dt> I switched from SW to ubuntu mainly for audio because audioslack (I think it was) died.
<ailo> qsampler crashes
<len-dt> astraljava tyhe irc topic could be changed as we are no longer beta 2
<len-dt> ailo any idea why?
<ailo> It worked from the terminal
 * len-dt changes to focus follows mouse
<len-dt> So crash on start?
* astraljava changed the topic of #ubuntustudio-devel to: Ubuntu Studio Development Channel | https://code.launchpad.net/ubuntustudio | Release Candidates need testing, go to http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/ now!
<ailo> I don't think qsampler itself crashes, but in conjunction with starting linux-sampler
<astraljava> I should write that mail to the lists now.
<len-dt> astraljava respin seems to have settled down a bit.... could wait a day though
<ailo> 3/4 starts crash
<ailo> Aren't computers supposed to do the same thing the same way each time? :P
<len-dt> ailo, I have had my soundcards switch back and forth too many times...
<ailo> You mean the order you get during boot?
<len-dt> Ja, I have to add a command to force it.
<ailo> You can also start the card using the name instead of hw:n
<len-dt> I found that if my ensoniq starts first the envy24 gets more xruns.
 * len-dt thinks a usb midi port is in his future...
<len-dt> What the? how come snd_ice1712 needs snd_mpu401_uart? My d66 has no midi ports.
<ailo> len-dt: Have you tried it? jackd -d alsa -d hw:M66
<ailo> I had forgotten how to do that
<ailo> You can also add that to qjackctl: hw:M66
<ailo> It works fine until you need to use two cards as one
<ailo> Two cards with the same name
<ailo> Even just booting them in order
<ailo> Haven't put any more time into that, but I believe one would need a script that checks by pci slot
<ailo> Not a problem for most people, but becomes a slight nuiscance when you need 8+ channels
 * astraljava awaits for the complaining to commence...
<len-dt> Using the right card is not a problem. I just found that if I load the ice1712 drivers first, I get less xruns... a lot less. I was aware I could use names, but I can also tell ens1370 to load last which seems to work better. I think I may try swapping slots too, to see what (if anything) that does. I only use the ens1712 for the midi port.
<ailo> len-dt: Have you checked irq's?
<ailo> For some reason making my cards boot in order does not work very well, at least not the last time I tried
<ailo> Had tons of usb devices attached
<ailo> Things like my synth module, xv-5050, which is midi only, gets recognized as an audio device
<ailo> So, it appears in the list of audio devices
<ailo> Well, a lot of usb midi devices do that
<ailo> Maybe all of them in fact
<ailo> Whenever the boot order did not work, some devices were not loaded at all instead
<ailo> Have to look into that later on
<len-dt> ailo, irqs is why I want to try dfferent slots, the ensoniq seems to be one higher which I think means it gets serviced first by default.
<len-dt> USB changes everything.
<len-dt> I don't have any though.
<len-dt> ailo, I guess the parallel port stuff is needed. Jack gets upset when I remove it. Reboot
<len-dt> ailo, astraljava do either of you know if a usb port uses it's irq if nothing is plugged in?
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-04-22
<len-dt> Anyone know about usb interrupts? I show 5 interrupts for usb1 to usb5. I have 6 usb ports(plugs)... all of which seem to use usb1. usb1 is ehci (usb 2.0) and usb 2 to usb 5 are uhci (usb1.1 I think)
<len-dt> The MB manual does not show any other usb pins. Odd... anyway, USB seems to be my high priority interrupt. 
<len-dt> eth0 was sharing the same interrupt, but I moved it to be lower than my audio cards and have my ice1712 higher than the ensoniq.
<len-dt> So far it seems stable. I'm running Audacious through PA->jack at -p 64, downloading software and can run some midi stuff at the same time with no xruns.
<len-dt> astraljava, todays respin seems to work well live/installed on both my desktop and my netbook and I have marked the i386 as passed in both live and install.
<astraljava> len-dt: Excellent news, thank you for your efforts! :)
<len-dt> astraljava, whens the next respin?
<astraljava> I don't know, hopefully there is none. :)
<astraljava> I'll sniff the air on -release and let you know if something's happening.
<len-dt> astraljava, lots activity in #ubuntu-release...
<astraljava> Heheh, yeah I do fear so...
<astraljava> Well anything during the last 12 hours doesn't seem to touch us, so thus far I doubt there's going to be a new one on Sunday. But there's still plenty of time left for that. :)
<len-nb> release day/hour=?
<astraljava> 26th.
<astraljava> Why oh why oh why can't people read anymore?
<astraljava> No offense to whoever that dude is, but I explained all that in the original email.
<astraljava> Apparently it was a case of TL;DR.
<astraljava> grr
<len-dt> astraljava, hey, if he has an amd64, maybe it will get done and then he will know for next time.
<astraljava> Yeah. :)
<astraljava> I'd have to start studying how one creates installer packages for Macs. But I think I'll try and get a few more hours of sleep, first.
<astraljava> Bah, Mail.app doesn't seem to play very nicely together with Gmail.
<ailo> len-dt: usb should be no problem as long as you don't use it
<ailo> I haven
<ailo> 't tried messing with mine, but I have share ir's with usb ports and they aren't affecting performance for me anywyay
<ailo> wifi and graphic card are commone to cause problems
<ailo> With the initirq script, shared irq is supposed to be less of a problem, but I'm not so sure
<ailo> I don't know if we have got any confirmation on this, when it comes to -lowlatency
<ailo> As I've said before, I don't think you can trim general performance by tuning either the desktop or the kernel
<ailo> If you get problems, they are most probably hardware related
<ailo> By tuning the kernel, I mean by switching things off. Of course, the low latency stuff is what matters
<ailo> len-dt: If you like, try disabling the initirq scriptto see how that affects your performance. It's a dependency to -lowlatency, so what I did was I just moved /etc/init.d/rtirq
<ailo> len-dt: Also, use "ps -eo rtprio,pri,ni,comm" to see the difference in rtprio for your processes
<ailo> You'll need to reboot in between, of course
<len-dt> ailo, sorry I had gone to bed (not beauty sleep, just non-ugly sleep)
<len-dt> I found that my pci slots starting right after the video slot go from low to high.
<len-dt> The last one is int 23, but is shared with all the usb2.0 ports. I had the nic in there for that reason, but I found out that hardware wise it has priority... so net traffic affected my sound.
<len-dt> I have moved the nic to beside the video card... it gets int17 now.
<len-dt> The end slot where it was is empty to avoid int sharing with a sound card and the one next to that (int 22?) still had the knockout so I left it empty too for now. Next is the ice1712 with int 21. It seems to be rock solid now... -p32 is possible with the odd xrun, but -p64 only gets xruns when PA's jacksink closes a port... not jack's fault and not a good low latency use anyway.
<len-dt> next the ice1712 is the ens1370 with int20. It gets used for midi io only and the audio part just causes trouble.
 * len-dt wishes he could turn that part off and just get midi.
<len-dt> I have to make sure I turn it off in PA after a new install or it can cause xruns... maybe not so much now that the int is lower priority.
<len-dt> I have found that turning off pulse->jack bridging brings cpu usage down a lot in -p128 and lower. Try:
<len-dt> pactl unload-module `pactl list short |grep jackdbus |sed s/module-jackdbus-detect//`
<len-dt> To test this. and pulseaudio --kill to restart.
<len-dt> At -p1024 the effect doesn't show, but lower, PA's CPU goes up about twice as fast as jacks.
<len-dt> I have turned off the par and ser ports in bios and found out I have ir and firewire (also turned of) as well.
<len-dt> ailo, ps -eo rtprio,pri,ni,comm, gives this:
<len-dt>    85 125   - irq/20-snd_ens1
<len-dt>      -  19   0 dnsmasq
<len-dt>     85 125   - irq/21-snd_ice1
<len-dt> should I be running the ens at 80?
<len-dt> also I have:
<len-dt>     80 120   - irq/23-ehci_hcd
<len-dt>     80 120   - irq/16-uhci_hcd
<len-dt>     78 118   - irq/19-uhci_hcd
<len-dt>     79 119   - irq/18-uhci_hcd
<len-dt>     79 119   - irq/16-uhci_hcd
<len-dt> But with no usb devices that should not be a problem.
<len-dt> I will try testing with that stuff turned off to see what difference it makes
<len-dt> ScottL meeting today?
<ScottL> len-dt, we were supposed to
<ScottL> we still can
<ScottL> i'm doing a few errands around the house but i'll poke in quite often and see if we reach a quorum for a meeting
<len-nb> ScottL, I have to go in the next few minutes.
<astraljava> So you guys come up with a schedule. I'll probably go to sleep within the next couple of hours, so if it happens during that time, I can participate.
<astraljava> But we seriously have to commit to meetings better the next cycle,
<astraljava> It's been rather ridiculous for the current one.
<len-nb> astraljava, ja, no kidding
<len-nb> I get the idea people are not yet ready to talk about next cycle, being worn out from this one.
<astraljava> len-nb: Yeah, and it's why I'm not trying to squeeze anyone for best times for it, yet.
<astraljava> Let us all cool down for a moment. :)
<len-nb> astraljava, I think so, also maybe the time change may confuse people.
<len-nb> I have gone from -9 to -8
<astraljava> Yeah. But then it also seems this current schedule isn't the most optimal.
<len-nb> Anyway, I have to go.
 * astraljava laughs at the mail on -users
<astraljava> Is someone actually working on the Preparation page?
<astraljava> We should remove the "under construction" statement if not.
<ScottL> astraljava, i believe ttoine was doing it
<astraljava> Ok.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-04-15
<zequence> len-1304: firefox recently got a "builtin" reader. don't know how that works. 
<micahg> it ships with pdf.js
<smartboyhw> zequence, len-1304 Arandr got synced.
<smartboyhw> zequence, next target: SRU that.
<zequence> smartboyhw: nice work
<DarkEra> morning
<DarkEra> I'm glad to report that arandr is working fine on 13.04 after the update and have set up both the laptop screen and external monitor.
<smartboyhw> DarkEra, hurray!
<DarkEra> ;)
<smartboyhw> zequence, what do you think of Bug 1169122 ?
<ubottu> bug 1169122 in Ubuntu Studio "Opening Software Sources shows notification of the volume. Ubuntu Studio 13.04 64 bit" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1169122
<smartboyhw> I can't confirm this bug.
<zequence> smartboyhw: The volume pops up more than it has to. I think it should only show if you use a non gui control to adjust the volume. This specific case is not really the whole picture
<zequence> Not really a Ubuntu Studio bug. I think the behaviour of the volume pop up could be improved, but I don't know where this should be done
<zequence> Maybe XFCE?
<smartboyhw> zequence, OK.
<smartboyhw> zequence, ask in #xubuntu-devel?
<zequence> smartboyhw: sure
<zequence> I'm thinking it's grabbing messages from somehwere, maybe dbus. But, it's processing more messages thatn it would need to
<smartboyhw> zequence, OK
<smartboyhw> Hmm zequence according to DistroWatch our weekly hit is less then Dream Studio:(
<madeinkobaia> Hi all : )
<smartboyhw> Hello madeinkobaia 
<DarkEra> hi madeinkobaia 
<madeinkobaia> smartboyhw : Hi, are how you ? Enjoyed your week end ? 
<smartboyhw> madeinkobaia, yep:)
<madeinkobaia> DarkEra  : Hi, nice to meet :)
<DarkEra> likewise :)
<madeinkobaia> :)
<smartboyhw> zequenceâ¦ Why does Swedens have last names ending with "maa" ?
<smartboyhw> ** ä¸»é¢ï¼ Ubuntu Studio Development Channel | https://code.launchpad.net/ubuntustudio | Ubuntu Studio 12.04.02 LTS is released: ISO- http://goo.gl/FEAxP Notes-http://goo.gl/29QaS | Ubuntu Studio 12.10 is released http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntustudio/releases/12.10/release/ | Ubuntu Studio 13.04 (Raring Ringtail) Beta 2 released http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntustudio/releases/13.04/beta-2/
<smartboyhw> What!?!
<smartboyhw> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mobileweb/natalia-lopatniuk-brzezinski/how-does-she-do-it-all-in_b_3074841.html
<smartboyhw> Phew sorry:P
<smartboyhw> DarkEra: Fuduntu went EOL!?
<DarkEra> smartboyhw, yep, after the 2013.4 release. They are in maintainance mode now, requested packages will be denied from now on
<DarkEra> after the meeting is said goodbye and stepped down as teammember and mod
<DarkEra> is/i
<DarkEra> all i need to do now is getting my old hostmask back
<zequence> smartboyhw: It's a Finnish ending. I'm Finnish you know. Maa means land, or earth
<zequence> ailo is just a poetic word. Doesn't mean anything. My lastname was originally Kononov, but my grandfathers family changed it, as a Russian name in Finland was not so popular in those days
<DarkEra> zequence, how big is the team at the moment?
<DarkEra> just wondering if you still need people to join in and contribute
<zequence> DarkEra: Not very big. We have three people involved in developing the actual distro, one art lead, and a couple of guys doing other things, like PR
<zequence> DarkEra: There's plenty of room. You're welcome to join us
<zequence> DarkEra: One of main goals as project lead this coming year is to get more people involved
<DarkEra> cool! :)
<zequence> And we don't need skilled Ubuntu developers. We just need people who are interested and think it's fun
<DarkEra> hold on, the kids hang around me. I'll get back to you as soon as i can zequence because i'm interested for sure
<zequence> DarkEra: The first thing to do is simply to set up your machine, so you can do testing. Usually means you have to have one dedicated installation of the development release. I think you mentioned you already installed it. Then we just go from there
<zequence> DarkEra: We don't really require anyone to do anything, but in order to do anything, one needs to have a basic setup, which hopefully can be a bit long term, so even if you'd only chip in now and then, it wouldn't be too much of an effort each time
<DarkEra> ok back
<DarkEra> zequence, i have a partion that i use for Ubuntu Studio 12.04 and another that has the 13.04 on it. So yes, i have set that up for that purpose already
<zequence> DarkEra: The next question is, what do you think you'd like to help out with? There's always testing, which is not at all organized at the moment. One thing that we would like is someone who could go through an entire workflow - the applications for that workflow, and make sure we are providing everything
<zequence> Say the audio workflow. Make sure all the applications have all the features that a user might request. And also, see if thare are apps/tools/plugins that we aren't shipping, but which we should
<DarkEra> Now that is a very good question... lol
<zequence> The audio workflow is probably the most rich, but also the one that gets most focus from users. So, the other workflows would need some love too
<DarkEra> well, i'm already testing the 13.04, the rest will be something i have to grow in to in time
<zequence> DarkEra: I guess a good start is just to familiarize yourself with the OS and the applications
<zequence> And report any weirdness
<DarkEra> yep, i agree on that. I know the os more or less since i've been a Ubuntu user for many years and tried studio too a couple of times. I got in touch with Ubuntu in the beginning of 2007 and still have that dvd of Ubuntu Studio 07.04 somewhere.
<DarkEra> i'll try to do my best and get back into it
<DarkEra> i well be back later again, gonna have something to eat
<DarkEra> well/will
<zequence> DarkEra: All right. We're here most of the time, so drop by anytime
<DarkEra> sure thing zequence
<DarkEra> i love to be a part of it and by the way.... now you guys have another one who lives in Belgium among you. :D
<zequence> I'm cycling close to 100 English miles tomorrow. Might not be very active with Ubuntu Studio :P
<DarkEra> Quick! someone grab the duct tape^^
<zequence> DarkEra: Did something break?
<DarkEra> zequence, no... lol. Have fun tomorrow ;)
<zequence> I just hope I won't get lost, so I know where to point the person I call for help
<DarkEra> :)
<DarkEra> who started the ubuntustudio on twitter by the way? Find it through the wiki but it seems nothing has been done with it.
<DarkEra> find/found
<DarkEra> darn typo's
<DarkEra> brb
<zequence> DarkEra: We just got it, but I don't have the admin for it yet
<zequence> going to sleep. bb tomorrow
<DarkEra> ok, laters
 * smartboyhw embraces DarkEra into the Ubuntu Studio team:)
<smartboyhw> zequence: Really good meaning there:~)
<DarkEra> thanks smartboyhw :)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-04-16
<smartboyhw> Hey hey DarkEra 
<DarkEra> good afternoon smartboyhw and all the others
<zequence> I made it. 72km
<zequence> But, I'm taking the train home
<zequence> I'm not in shape
<smartboyhw> zequence, :O
<DarkEra> \o/
<smartboyhw> \o/
<zequence> Took me 3h :P
<smartboyhw> zequence, hmm how can Maik get Bug 1169122 on a FRESH install?
<ubottu> bug 1169122 in Ubuntu Studio "Opening Software Sources shows notification of the volume. Ubuntu Studio 13.04 64 bit" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1169122
<smartboyhw> zequence, add oil:P
<DarkEra> oh, you don't want to know how my condition is
<smartboyhw> DarkEra, what condition?
<zequence> smartboyhw: I wouldn't put too much energy on that bug, unless it really interests you
<DarkEra> smartboyhw, that was a clean before i reported the bug
<DarkEra> clean install i meant
<smartboyhw> DarkEra, oh so Maik Adamietz = you (I don't know that:P)
<zequence> I find the problem is that the code for the volume applet needs some polishing, and that this bug is just one symptom of the problem
<smartboyhw> DarkEra, I never experienced that bug myself.
<smartboyhw> I tested a daily two days ago, and it never happened to do that.
<zequence> DarkEra: Ah, you were the one who reported it?
<DarkEra> i don't experience it on my netbook with the 32 install so i find it kinda weird smartboyhw 
<DarkEra> zequence, yes :)
<smartboyhw> DarkEra, I kinda find it weird too, I'm on 64-bit.
<zequence> I think the best solution would be to report this bug upstream
 * DarkEra is trying to wake his brain up
<zequence> But, it would be good to make a case, and have more than one symptom
<zequence> Cause I think it would be good to rewrite that part of the code, dealing with notifications
<zequence> DarkEra: If you'd like to help on this, perhaps you could do that, since you are the only one who experience that particular symptom
<zequence> Or, one could make a feature request
<zequence> This is the XFCE bug tracker https://bugzilla.xfce.org
<zequence> bbs
<DarkEra> will have a look at it but i want to try and see what happens now when i open software source from synaptic or the software center
<smartboyhw> DarkEra, OK
<smartboyhw> DarkEra, you didn't get Bug 1169344 did you? (Shouldn't be, at least you successfully installed)
<ubottu> bug 1169344 in Ubuntu Studio "Grub rescue error" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1169344
<smartboyhw> Ot
<smartboyhw> It's extremely weird bug.
<DarkEra> nope, beta 2 and the daily built i downloaded worked fine
<smartboyhw> DarkEra, grrrr. That bug is more weird then yours:P
<smartboyhw> It shouldn't happen (at all)
<smartboyhw> I would rather target that bug to grub.
<DarkEra> i've seen that bug before somewhere but can't remember where
<smartboyhw> GRUB rescue means some terrible problems.
<smartboyhw> I don't think it is an Ubuntu Studio bug
<smartboyhw> Instead should be upstream bug at Ubuntu.
<DarkEra> what the..... smartboyhw now i don't get the notification anymore. I tried it several times now with the software center and synaptic
<smartboyhw> DarkEra, :O
<smartboyhw> !?
 * smartboyhw thinks this bug is getting more peculiar now.
<smartboyhw> DarkEra, do you live in Germany? (just asking because of Bug 1167549)
<ubottu> bug 1167549 in Ubuntu Studio "QJackCTL is in German instead of English" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1167549
<DarkEra> or i'm getting too old and crazy (mind playing tricks) or a update fixed it.
<DarkEra> smartboyhw, i live in Belgium
<DarkEra> :)
<smartboyhw> DarkEra, do you speak German then?
<DarkEra> i still can if i want to but Dutch is the language i speak daily
<zequence> The problem with the volume applet is that it is sending notifications when you really don't require it to
<zequence> I think it probably shows everytime there is a system sound, or something
<smartboyhw> Or rather, did you choose Germany cities (like Berlin) while in the timezone selection screen?
<zequence> It's listening through dbus, but not filtering the messages in a way that I think is what you expect
<DarkEra> smartboyhw, no but i noticed in Language Support on the Regional Formats the language was set to Deutsch (German)
<smartboyhw> DarkEra, hmm?
<smartboyhw> That's awkward.
<smartboyhw> Well I'm in Hong Kong, and if that bug happenes I should get Chinese (Traditional) Hydrogen apps:P
<smartboyhw> DarkEra, you joined https://launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-testing and https://launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio ?
<DarkEra> going to in a bit ;)
<smartboyhw> DarkEra, ;)
<DarkEra> nice to see that people like the wallpaper i made yesterday
<smartboyhw> DarkEra, that's you also?:P
<DarkEra> yeah, guess so since it's my name :D
<smartboyhw> zequence, I propose to have https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-kgV_rCQoPsY/UWwVn8HQtXI/AAAAAAAAAog/oNNp_O5sh94/s901/throughtheclouds.png in our 13.10 release.
<smartboyhw> DarkEra, ^
<DarkEra> O_o
<smartboyhw> DarkEra, we DO do that:P
<DarkEra> thank you smartboyhw :)
<smartboyhw> DarkEra, shared on G+:p
<DarkEra> where's the plus 1 button here on irc... oh wait
<DarkEra> +1
<DarkEra> :P
<smartboyhw> DarkEra, LOL
<DarkEra> careful.. i might be an older dude but i'm nuts sometimes. I refuse to grow up :D
<smartboyhw> zequence, I need to remind you a bit: In the linux-meta-lowlatency SRUs it's Bump ABI for the changelog, not *Bumb* API
<smartboyhw> :P
<smartboyhw> (Kidding)
<zequence> smartboyhw: apw probably used a script to do that before, while I do it manually
<zequence> So, there are all kinds of errors in the changelog at times
<smartboyhw> zequence, I know
<smartboyhw> Friendly reminder that is:)
<smartboyhw> zequence, DarkEra I recommend you to start a discussion in Finnish :P
 * smartboyhw can hide from the channel:p
 * smartboyhw seriously wonders why holstein isn't running for Ubuntu IRC members....
<smartboyhw> For god's sake he's already channel op of THREE flavour's support channels!
<DarkEra> smartboyhw, i don't know any Finnish so that could be a problem
<smartboyhw> DarkEra, damn I mistaken you to speak Finnish.
<DarkEra> lol
<zequence> DarkEra is from Belgium, just like madeinkobaia
<smartboyhw> zequence, whoa coincidence!
<smartboyhw> :O
<smartboyhw> Now:
<zequence> But seems you have different mother tongues. I think madeinkobaia is a Frenchg native
<DarkEra> call i a invasion :P
<DarkEra> it*
 * smartboyhw thinks DarkEra and madeinkobaia can start a Ubuntu Studio Belgium LoCo (:P)
<smartboyhw> Probably one for len-1304 and holstein in USA:P
<DarkEra> hahaha
<zequence> So, we have two Finns, two Americans, and now two Belgians (probably not a word). smartboyhw - you need to find a second guy from HK
<zequence> len is from Canada, so he also needs to find a pal
<smartboyhw> zequence, ah yeah
<zequence> I'm technically Swedish though, as I'm a Swedish citizen and live in Sweden
<DarkEra> officially i'm not Belgian, i only live here :P
<smartboyhw> zequence, now that's a problem: I think I might be the only *user* from Hong Kong (let alone contributor)
<smartboyhw> DarkEra, officially you are Finnish then?
<smartboyhw> Oops not finniish
<smartboyhw> Dutch:P
 * smartboyhw faints over languages
<DarkEra> lol
<DarkEra> German
<smartboyhw> DarkEra, German!
<DarkEra> :D
<DarkEra> no really, from origin i am German
<DarkEra> a buddy of mine told me once that it doesn't matter and said: you live in Belgium so you are Belgian
<smartboyhw> DarkEra, it does
<smartboyhw> You have Belgian citizenship, you are Belgian
 * smartboyhw is technically a British too:P
<DarkEra> cool :D
<DarkEra> brb
<holstein> smartboyhw: i got busy for a while
<holstein> maybe when i feel like i have enough time to devote
<holstein> im slammed til after the summer though
<holstein> and, its actually really good things that are taking my time, so im not complaining :)
<smartboyhw> holstein, :)
<smartboyhw> hey yas madeinkobaia 
<madeinkobaia> smartboyhw : Hi : )
<DarkEra> good afternoon madeinkobaia 
<smartboyhw> madeinkobaia, what do you think of DarkEra's wallpaper in the Ubuntu Studio Community
<madeinkobaia> darkera : Hi, thanks : )
<DarkEra> :)
<madeinkobaia> smartboyhw : I don't know, should see it first ; )
<smartboyhw> madeinkobaia, https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-kgV_rCQoPsY/UWwVn8HQtXI/AAAAAAAAAoc/bDEzq-8QPa4/w497-h373/throughtheclouds.png
<madeinkobaia> darkera : hum, ok, so you're "Maik Adamietz", I received a post on g+ about your wp, I didn't known that's you.
<smartboyhw> madeinkobaia, neither do zequence and I till today, so no problems:P
<DarkEra> madeinkobaia, yep that's me. No worries :)
<madeinkobaia> smartboy, darkera : According with what we decided with zequence, before start to plan the featuring artworks for the 13.10 we will have a global reflexion on what should be our new graphic guideline :) . But thanks for share darkera, I will keep in mind anyway your wp, we stay in touch here anyway.
<madeinkobaia> "anyway twice", I am on a redounding circle :P
<DarkEra> madeinkobaia, sure thing, i'm here everyday so that won't be a problem. :)
<madeinkobaia> darkera : Thanks, don't hesitate to share your future creations with us, always welcome : )
<madeinkobaia> Does someone saw ttoine those last days ?
<DarkEra> i'll do so. I don't create wallpapers every day but from time to time i like to work on something and most of them turn out just like that.
<DarkEra> i believe ttoine was here a few days ago... not 100% sure though
<smartboyhw> madeinkobaia, OK
<madeinkobaia> smartboy : :) 
<madeinkobaia> darkera : thanks
<zequence> Someone should probably write a Ubuntu phone app for controlling jack
<smartboyhw> zequence, please do:P
<DarkEra> and fork the Ardour android app for controlling ardour 3 :D
<smartboyhw> DarkEra, :D
<smartboyhw> Don't let me do it, KDE packaging = no Qt 5 = no Ubuntu Touch SDK Apps building
<smartboyhw> I really would have made a Planet Ubuntu app:(
<madeinkobaia> See u all, bye smartboyhw, darkera :)
<DarkEra> laters :)
<madeinkobaia> :)
<DarkEra> Yay!! got my old cloak back
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-04-17
 * smartboyhw recommends zequence to go to http://www.communityleadershipsummit.com/
<contrapunctus> smartboyhw: No 'tell' bot here?
<smartboyhw> contrapunctus, no I think
<contrapunctus> ^^
<zequence> smartboyhw: It's a bit too far away for me. My wallet does not make me airborn for that far distances atm
<zequence> I need to add more magic to it
<smartboyhw> zequence, magic:O
<smartboyhw> hey DarkEra 
<DarkEra> hi there smartboyhw 
<DarkEra> i totally forgot we enter the RC release tomorrow which means i need more coffee
<smartboyhw> DarkEra, LOL
<smartboyhw> len_: Ooh?
<smartboyhw> Len went MIA:(
<DarkEra> he'll be back
<smartboyhw> DarkEra, I know:P
<DarkEra> bbl
<zequence> I hope he remembered to pay his bill :P
<smartboyhw> zequence, ROFL
<smartboyhw> len-1304: You finally paid your network fees! (zequence joked about that)
<madeinkobaia> Hi all : )
<DarkEra> heya madeinkobaia 
<madeinkobaia> darkera : hi, whats up ?
<DarkEra> not much actually, relaxing a bit :)
<madeinkobaia> cool, I am fine by my side : )
<DarkEra> that's always good :)
<madeinkobaia> for all : I just added a picture presentation for the ubuntu-studio webshop project, that means a proposition for the web site layout and a t-shirt version, you can get the picture here : ubuntustudio-art/ubuntustudio-resources/art in the ON-AIR folder, any feedback is welcome : )
<DarkEra> madeinkobaia: where is that located?
<madeinkobaia> On launchpad, you can get the branch here : https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-art/ubuntustudio-resources/art
<DarkEra> oh ok, thanks :)
<madeinkobaia> Most welcome : )
<DarkEra> madeinkobaia: looks great and i like the concept, well done. In the header i would change the color of the logo (lighter blue), background a bit more blueish and i'd change the color of the 'Webshop' text a bit or add some more dropshadow to it. Because everthing seems to drown in the other color if you know what i mean. :)
<madeinkobaia> darkera : Thanks for the feedback : ) 
<DarkEra> you're most welcome :)
<DarkEra> and i want to order a t-shirt right away, size Large and black color
<madeinkobaia> lol, for the colors there will be 3 basics : white, black and grey, for the size, no problems I think : D
<DarkEra> nice :)
<DarkEra> what will they cost?
<madeinkobaia> No ideas about the details, the project is manage by ttoine. Now I think the price will be cool as our distro :D
<DarkEra> hahaha, ok :D
<madeinkobaia> darkera : Did you already joined a section of the team ? I start to read the conversation about that last day...
<DarkEra> i joined in on ubuntu studio and ubuntu studio testing at Launchpad yesterday
<zequence> madeinkobaia: It's very inline with what we have now, but I think I'd like to see the slogan in there as well. 
<zequence> madeinkobaia: Also, realizing this is just a proposition so far, is the front material optimally placed? Seems like it could go closer to the middle
<DarkEra> The 'Want a ear- and eyegasm? Use Ubuntu Studio and get creative' slogan?
<zequence> "Linux for creative humans"
<zequence> or, "linux for creative humans"
<DarkEra> i know, just teasing you a bit
<DarkEra> :)
<zequence> I wasn't actually sure if there had been a slogan like that in the past
<DarkEra> can't recall that to be honest
<madeinkobaia> zequence : ok, about the slogan : I will just add it on the back, it will be too much graphical information if I keep the proportion as it is for put it on the front. 
<madeinkobaia> Now I will make some tests to how it works on both anyway
<zequence> madeinkobaia: I guess you could remove "ubuntu studio" from the back, and just have the slogan
<madeinkobaia> zequence : for sure
<zequence> On the front, and/or the back, one could put "ubuntu studio" at the top, but maybe that doesn't work?
<zequence> I liked it when you made the slogan in color too. I think that would look good. But not sure about blue in this case. Well, you have a better eye for that anyway
<zequence> I need to see it in order to know
<zequence> I guess there are some standards. I'm thinking if perhaps the COF should not be in botht the front and the back
<DarkEra> i'd keep ubuntu studio under the logo on the front, on the back the slogan. As for the color of the text i'd keep it black for the white anyway
<zequence> I'll be gone for an hour or so..
<madeinkobaia> zequence : We have do it step by step, its like coding, one info added needs several tests, can be exponential (lol ; p) We gonna work on the content and composition (that means where are placed the elements) first and finish with colors (the easy part)
<DarkEra> ok zequence chat ya laters then :)
<DarkEra> still have to eat anyway
<zequence> madeinkobaia: Ok. Different people like different methods. Some like making many versions, some prefer only to make on or two. I have complete faith in your abilities, and prefer you decide on the method. I'll happily just give you feedback whenever you require it
<madeinkobaia> zequence : that's great, as I said any feedbacks are really welcome, no problems : )
<madeinkobaia> Could be great if ttoine comes around for speak about the project too : )
<DarkEra> madeinkobaia: pm or email him so you two can meet up here. Maybe that's a option? :)
<madeinkobaia> darkera : I was just searching his email, I will contact him on his blog.
<DarkEra> madeinkobaia: lol... two minds alike :D
<zequence> I think I'm addicted to cyckling, and married to my bike
<zequence> cycling*
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-04-18
<zequence> morning
<smartboyhw> zequence: You started working on the S blueprints?
<zequence> smartboyhw: Yes. Sorry for all the mail
<zequence> I should have subscribed teams last
<smartboyhw> zequence: No worries, just asking:)
<zequence> I'm also starting planning for 14.04
<smartboyhw> zequence: Whoo hoo!
<smartboyhw> zequence: One strange thing: We still don't have a codename for S.
<zequence> smartboyhw: It will be decided around the release for 13.04
<zequence> The names for the blueprints can be changed, so there's no worry
<zequence> If needed..
<smartboyhw> zequence: Em the Ubuntu Foundations Team are already feeling strange that the codename isn't out out.
<smartboyhw> s/out out/out yet/
<kubotu> smartboyhw meant: "zequence: Em the Ubuntu Foundations Team are already feeling strange that the codename isn't out yet."
<smartboyhw> Clearly that might be a possible solution for sabdfl to start rolling by simply not naming S:P
<zequence> Well, I can only plan for what I know. I would be surprised if they decided on a rolling release post 13.04, after all that has been said
<zequence> I'm more leaning on that possibility after 14.04
<smartboyhw> zequence: +1
<smartboyhw> zequence: So the number of blueprints in S will be = to R?
<zequence> smartboyhw: I haven't counted
<zequence> The categories are a little different this time
<smartboyhw> zequence: By how?
<zequence> I'm focusing a bit more on the actual packages we have
<smartboyhw> \o/
<DarkEra> i don't know what update caused it but on the 13.04 the fan of my videocard keeps spinning very high. Checking the temperature in nvidia-settings showed it starts with 70Â°C and went up to 78Â°C. The normal temperature should be between 66Â°C and 68Â°C
<DarkEra> i removed the driver and switched back to nouveau but have the same result
<holstein> DarkEra: try the older kernel
<DarkEra> holstein, i did try that, same result
<DarkEra> i'm back on 12.04 on my dual boot machine
<DarkEra> could this be Xorg related?
<holstein> DarkEra: its unreleased software.. could be anything
<holstein> DarkEra: is the install still there?
<DarkEra> i know, just trying to help with testing and solve the issue :)
<DarkEra> what install, 13.04?
<holstein> DarkEra: yes.. is the installation still there?
<DarkEra> yes, i have it on another partition for testing
<holstein> i would do a few things... one thing.. consider just waiting and upgrading again after asking about it in #ubuntu+1
<holstein> another option.. force the vesa driver in a custom xorg.conf
<holstein> also, boot the generic kernel ... using the generic kernel puts this upstream of ubuntustudio... meaning, if you are not booting our kernel, then this is not an ubuntustudio specific issue
<holstein> that would be good, since i think it would be more likely to get attention
<zequence> xserver got updated 8th of April. you can see the changes, by doing: apt-get changelog xserver-common
<DarkEra> ok, i'll look into that later on the evening
<zequence> DarkEra: Is this a laptop?
<DarkEra> yes
<holstein> could be hardware related
<holstein> is it "acting" like that from other installs? or live CD's?
<zequence> DarkEra: First thing I would do is make sure you don't have dust in your fan outtake. Open the back, blow through the fan outtake - even if it looks clean. 
<zequence> DarkEra: Just make sure to open the back before you blow
<DarkEra> 12.04 is working fine holstein, i'm on that now
<zequence> holstein: We've had other reports saying newer releases make HW warmer
<holstein> great... nvidia zequence ? or accross the board?
<zequence> I do think however that the amount of increase is pretty steep, and would feel more comfortable in making it a real issue, if I was sure there wasn't dust involved
<zequence> DarkEra: My
<zequence> holstein: Seems to affect at least AMD and Nvidia so far
<DarkEra> this problem occured after i pulled in the latest updates 30 minutes ago
<holstein> zequence: it wont hurt to blow out some dust.. it can only be helpful
<holstein> DarkEra: ^^
<zequence> DarkEra: My experience of dust is that it makes a gigantic difference removing it
<DarkEra> i'll be right back, wife needs me for a few minutes
<holstein> it does.. i have had quite a few machines that would overheat to the point of failure.. blow them out, and they work again
<zequence> Yeah. Like new from the factory
<zequence> time to go home. bb in a couple of hours 
<DarkEra> k
<DarkEra> gonna have a look at the fan, bbl
<smartboyhw_> Hello ttoine
<smartboyhw_> ttoine: madeinkobaia made some merchandise art in the Ubuntu Studio Art bzr branch I think. 
<smartboyhw_> Hey DarkEra, glad to see you joining the LP teams:)
<DarkEra> thanks smartboyhw_  :)
<DarkEra> i guess some people got a bit upset after you shared my wallpaper on G+... lol
<smartboyhw_> DarkEra: May I ask who?!
<DarkEra> i guess the fuduntu peeps
<smartboyhw_> DarkEra: Sorry there:(
<DarkEra> all of the sudden i got my old hostmask/cloak back, they wanted to give me a fuduntu/member cloak first when i announced i would leave
<DarkEra> smartboyhw_, no worries
<DarkEra> nothing has been said to me so it's all cool :)
<smartboyhw_> DarkEra: :)
<DarkEra> bbl, food
<ttoine> hello
<DarkEra> hi there ttoine 
<smartboyhw_> ttoine: Meet DarkEra!
<ttoine> so, it is definitive: we have the right to create a spreadshirt shop. Both Canonical and Spreadshirt legal dpt agree
<ttoine> hi DarkEra 
<ttoine> nice to meet you
<smartboyhw_> ttoine: Whoa
<DarkEra> likewise ttoine :)
<smartboyhw_> ttoine: DarkEra is a new contributor to Ubuntu Studio.
<DarkEra> gonna have some food now, will be back soonish
<smartboyhw_> He is actually originally a Fuduntu Team member
<ttoine> was hard with canonical... I had to explain a lot of stuf, etc...
<ttoine> but eventually, I did it!
 * ttoine is very proud of that !!!
<smartboyhw_> ttoine: Phew thanks!!!!!!!!!
<dtchen> ttoine: nice!
<ttoine> fubuntu ? what is fubuntu ?
<smartboyhw_> ttoine: Fuduntu sorry;P
<smartboyhw_> It is a Fedora clone with GNOME 2
<ttoine> smartboyhw_, a link please ?
<smartboyhw_> ttoine: Don't care about it, Fuduntu Linux will die in 30 Sep.
<smartboyhw_> die = EOL
<smartboyhw> Sorry I left.
<smartboyhw> Stupid wi-fi on my GALAXY Pocket
<smartboyhw> ttoine: You got the message about the merchandise artwork from madeinkobaia?
<ttoine> no
<ttoine> I was hoping to find it here
<smartboyhw> ttoine: There isn't
<ttoine> I was very busy at work
<smartboyhw> ?
<ttoine> to find him
<smartboyhw> ttoine: Check out the artwork in ~ubuntustudio-art 's bzr branch
<ttoine> smartboyhw_, could you give me the link ? i don't use bzr at the moment
<smartboyhw_> ttoineâ¦ erm wait
<smartboyhw_> ttoine: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-art/ubuntustudio-resources/art/files
<smartboyhw_> Not sure if it is FULLY completed though
<ttoine> smartboyhw_, there is no directory for merchandise...
<ttoine> I will try to spend more time on the chat
<ttoine> and chat with him
<smartboyhw_> ttoine: Try to do some e-mail conversation.
<ttoine> smartboyhw_, ok
<zequence> ttoine: https://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-art/ubuntustudio-resources/art/files/head:/ON-AIR/
<ttoine> zequence, thanks
<ttoine> I just need the files without the shirts ;-)
<zequence> ttoine: We're not printing any shirts yet
<ttoine> ?
<zequence> ttoine: We first need to make up the design
<zequence> ttoine: This is still work in progress
<ttoine> this is not t-shirt design ?
<ttoine> ah ok
<ttoine> bbl
<DarkEra> good evening madeinkobaia :)
<DarkEra> ttoine was here and said he'll be back later 
<DarkEra> looks like you got a go for the wenbshop and shirts
<zequence> madeinkobaia: You may have noticed that I put some blueprints up for 13.10 and 14.04
<zequence> madeinkobaia: You are free to add to them. I'm thinking our main goal is 14.04, and 13.10 is more of a rehersal for that. Also, there's no pressure to be finished with anything for 13.10. 
 * DarkEra is dreaming about 14.04 already
<zequence> madeinkobaia: Since you work with art, maybe you have some knowledge about graphics applications? Would be nice if you could also have a look at our -graphics meta, to see if we are providing a good choice of apps, and if we have enough extras, like fonts, brushes, or anything like that.
<zequence> madeinkobaia: About the meta, or the "workflow", I will prepare similar workitems for all workflows. But, I thought maybe you'd be suitable for taking care of graphics
<zequence> If we can't get other people involved, we need to share the workload on doing the same for -audio, -video, -photography, and -puplishing as well
<zequence> Some require more work than others
<madeinkobaia> darkera : hello, thanks for the info, I contacted ttoine by mail.
<madeinkobaia> zequence : Hi, no problems I will check all that : )
<madeinkobaia> zequence : I added a working note for the webshop project, feel free to take a look on it.
<zequence> I'll check it out
<madeinkobaia> zequence : still for the webshop, I will put online on monday few propositions who will include your last remarks. I contacted ttoine and waiting his remarks too.
<Len-nb> zequence, smartboyhw_ when is release day?
<zequence> Len-nb: April 25th
<zequence> RC should be out today
<len-1304> Good, just reading it says Final freeze today.
<len-1304> Testing tracker doesn't have an RC though
<zequence> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RaringRingtail/ReleaseSchedule
<zequence> We also have our own, slimmed down version https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/DevelopmentReleaseSchedule
<len-1304> The first one is really hard to read towards the end with orange on red.
<len-1304> So should we expect a respin for RC? or will they just rename the daily.
<zequence> I think the RC will pop up as soon as they're ready to build it
<zequence> Haven't followed the QA procedure, so no idea how that works with RC
<zequence> smartboyhw_: ^
<DarkEra> i hope it isn't the current ubuntu iso they release as RC, i wanted to have a look but couldn't get the unity desktop loaded on the laptop with the nvidia graphics card. Compiz failed
<DarkEra> works fine though on the netbook
<DarkEra> intel card^
<zequence> I'll probably get Intel graphic for my next machine
<DarkEra> nice :)
<zequence> Makes sense, since they write their own drivers, and they are FLOSS
<DarkEra> throught the years i used linux i got the impression that intel and linux work really great with each other. I had a Packard Bell laptop before and never had any issues
<DarkEra> most of the stuff was intel in there
<DarkEra> too bad it died on me after 3 years
<zequence> Intel is one of the main contributors to the Linux kernel, and my impression is that they will sometimes even add support for hardware not yet on the market
<zequence> I would guess most of their work is in making drivers for their products
<zequence> Or, add new features, as for their CPUs
 * DarkEra takes a note.... when buying a desktop pc make sure Intel stuff is in there
<zequence> AMD should work too, as from what I've understood, they are quite open and providing info so free drivers can be made
<zequence> But, it's not perfect IMO
<zequence> https://www.system76.com/
<zequence> Most of it is Intel, but when you need top notch graphics, it's Nvidia
<DarkEra> don't make me drool again.... i visit that site often
<zequence> For a multimedia content creator, with no special need for extreme graphics, Intel should be fine
<DarkEra> :D
<DarkEra> yeah, think so too
<zequence> They visited last physical UDS in Copenhagen. I was there. I think it was this one https://www.system76.com/laptops/model/gazp8
<zequence> Pangolin Performance also has the same graphic chip
<zequence> From the information I got from them, it's enough for graphics production
<zequence> But, I'm not an expert
<zequence> Fantastic colors
<DarkEra> i want to have a chat with the guy from this 'shop' in the near future if his business continues: http://www.ubuntushop.be/index.php/ubuntu-desktop-computers.html
<DarkEra> there's a pdf for download with more pc's they sell
<zequence> He includes LCD screens, right?
<zequence> The whole set, with keyboard, mouse, etc
<DarkEra> that's indeed a nice laptop from system76
<zequence> That considered, the price is not that bad
<DarkEra> yeah, i guess he does
<zequence> But, otherwise, the components are a bit out of date
<DarkEra> but i think only with those two on the website
<DarkEra> i have to look into the pdf to make sure
<DarkEra> from what i can tell only the two on the website come with a monitor. The rest is keyboard and mouse only
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-04-19
 * micahg hopes he didn't forget to upload something...
<holstein> micahg: we'll forgive you if you did :)
<holstein> zequence: question
<holstein> doesnt our irc client point to #ubuntustudio?
<len-1304> holstein, no
<len-1304> There is a menu item in the ubuntustudio submenu that does though
<len-1304> holstein, The changes needed to make ubuntustudio the default in the default settings are too much
<len-1304> xchat does not have a place we can put default settings in. That stuff is all part of the binary :P
<holstein> i see
<len-1304> clear as mud?
<holstein> :)
<len-live> From what I saw on the release channel we should be treating the daily builds as release candidates and be testing them as such
<smartboyhw> zequence:  Archive FinalFreezed now \o/ 
 * smartboyhw is proposing that we should remove the 12.10 link in this single channel
<smartboyhw> Hey DarkEra
<DarkEra> hi smartboyhw 
<DarkEra> i guess the rc release is postponed
<smartboyhw> DarkEra: Not sure.
<DarkEra> pretty sure, 18 was the release day and that was yesterday :)
<smartboyhw> DarkEra: No worries, I will inform the whole world that it i ready for testing.
<DarkEra> :)
<DarkEra> by the way, i start think that xorg x server - core server update screwed it up on the 13.04 
<smartboyhw> DarkEra: Uh oh. Report bug?
<DarkEra> not done yet
<zequence> DarkEra: You mean about the temperature?
<DarkEra> but, the graphics card temperature went up way high yesterday and the problem is still there. Using 12.04 at the moment
<DarkEra> zequence, yep
<zequence> DarkEra: Did you try blowing out the fan outtake yet?
<DarkEra> yes i did
<zequence> DarkEra: There is another possibility. The temp reader may be the problem
<zequence> DarkEra: And, just anything adding to increased activity
<DarkEra> it's not a hardware issue, i'm pretty sure. 13.04 worked great until after the updates
<smartboyhw> zequence: I need to prepare all the announcements before Wednesday. I'm having a test on Friday so no computer for Thursday. I'll still be here to do the actual releasing, but not doing any QA.
<DarkEra> i have two other distro's running on this machine and the fan is almost silent
<DarkEra> when using them
<zequence> DarkEra: Did you measure CPU temp?
<smartboyhw> DarkEra: The RC images are held up by the language packs.
<DarkEra> smartboyhw, ah, ok. Thanks :)
<DarkEra> zequence, how?
<zequence> DarkEra: install sensord
<zequence> DarkEra: Then, do: sudo sensors-detect
<zequence> DarkEra: And to see the temps: sensors
<DarkEra> gonna write that down and boot into 13.04 later
<zequence> DarkEra: It's of course possible that one will make the other warmer, since the air inside gets warmer
<zequence> DarkEra: How was the fan outtake? I did a couple of really hard blows, and man, there was dust there I couldn't have imagined, since I didn't see it with my eyes
<zequence> ..before I blew it
<DarkEra> if you look at the GPU temp on 12.04 through nvidia-setting at the moment it's 58Â°C. By now it would have been 75 to 78Â°C by now. I'll check both again when on 13.04 and i was just thinking about that too that one heats up the other
<smartboyhw> zequence: I only got high temps when I am either building software or doing QA.
<DarkEra> zequence, i clean it from time to time so there wasn't too much dust in it :)
<zequence> smartboyhw: In other words, whenever you put stress on the CPU?
<smartboyhw> zequence: Yeah. And RAM.
<zequence> RAM won't make the temp higher though
<zequence> I mean, using more RAM, that is
<DarkEra> bbl, checking 13.04
<DarkEra> zequence, i check on 13.04. This is the output taken with intervals of a few seconds and within a minute: http://paste.ubuntu.com/5721291/
<DarkEra> you clearly see the GPU temp rising
<DarkEra> the CPU stays around the same temperature from what i can tell
<smartboyhw_> DarkEra: Someone reported a bug having simliar issues as yours, but found out it was also a problem in -generic.
<DarkEra> so it's not related to the kernel (which i found out already) or ubuntu studio. 
<DarkEra> smartboyhw_, that's also on 13.04?
<zequence> DarkEra: At this point, it's hard to say
<zequence> DarkEra: You could try installing the same kernel on 12.04
<DarkEra> i have a better idea
<DarkEra> install 13.04 again and not pull in the xorg x server - core server update
<zequence> DarkEra: It would be easier, and quicker, if you installed the kernel
<zequence> DarkEra: http://packages.ubuntu.com/raring/linux-image-generic
<zequence> Just download it, and install it manually
<zequence> There was also a PPA for kernel backports, but I don't have it
<zequence> DarkEra: To install proprietary drivers, or any other kind of modules, you'll need the headers http://packages.ubuntu.com/raring/linux-headers-generic
<zequence> I mean, to build modules..
<DarkEra> i know :)
<zequence> DarkEra: I'd appreciate it if you could install the kernel on 12.04 and see if there's a difference
<zequence> There was a guy with the same kind of problem here before, but I think he also updated the xorg stuff, so that was not very helpful
<zequence> on 12.04, that is
<zequence> I mean, he had heating problems the newer the release was, and 13.04 was the worst. But, when he installed a newere kernel to 12.04, I think he also installed a newer X
<zequence> I was trying to help him, but I was away each time he was in
<zequence> And now, he's not responding anymore
<DarkEra> ok, no problem. I'll do it to help out and make sure :)
<DarkEra> zequence, sorry, can't install them
<DarkEra> Dependency is not satisfiable: linux-image-3.8.0-19-generic
<DarkEra> i have to go in a few so i leave the stuff as is
<zequence> DarkEra: That's the package you should isntall
<zequence> DarkEra: Not the meta package
<zequence> DarkEra: Which arch is it?
<zequence> hmm, the packages were not downloadable http://packages.ubuntu.com/raring/amd64/linux-image-3.8.0-19-generic/download
<zequence> oh, no, sorry
<zequence> there's the mirrors below
<zequence> That's for 64bit
<smartboyhw_> :O
<zequence> and this is the 32bit http://packages.ubuntu.com/raring/i386/linux-image-3.8.0-19-generic/download
<zequence> Another way is to change the apt to say "raring" instead of "precise", do sudo apt-get update, and then only install the kernel, nothing else, if already installed: sudo apt-get install --only-upgrade linux-generic
<zequence> in /etc/apt/sources.list
<zequence> Not sure if the last will work
<smartboyhw_> zequence: Will there be an S kernel blueprint? I would like linux-lts-raring-lowlatency in 12.04.3 (if that doesn't kill you off maintenance and regression testing.
<zequence> smartboyhw_: Why would you like to have that kernel?
<smartboyhw_> zequence: Hardware enablement?
<smartboyhw_> That's the reason Ubuntu has linux-lts-raring-generic
<smartboyhw_> Or maybe add in linux-rt?
<zequence> We should look at adding linux-rt for 14.04
<smartboyhw_> zequence: Mmm kay;)
<zequence> Doing a SRU for the LTS is not really a S blueprint. I'll look into that
<DarkEra> zequence, i'm on 64bit
<smartboyhw_> zequence: \o/
<DarkEra> but i gotta run now. bbl :)
<zequence> DarkEra: See you later
<zequence> smartboyhw_: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/topic-t-flavor-ubuntustudio
<zequence> Sorry, https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/ubuntustudio-t-kernel
<smartboyhw_> zequence: Whoo hoo!
 * smartboyhw_ subscribes to blueprint.
<zequence> smartboyhw_: I haven't at all looked at what the -rt patch consists of, but it is possible that we don't need the entire patch in order for us to get a good realtime kernel
<zequence> It's also quite possible that we would be able to add the patch ourselves to a Ubuntu kernel, which is not supported by the -rt folks
<zequence> So, one option is to enchance -lowlatency with a patch to make it more realtime
<zequence> It would be best if we could sync with Ubuntu, but if we can't, and we still want to add a -rt kernel, we add the kernel that is supported then. 
<smartboyhw_> zequence: +1
 * smartboyhw is back!
<madeinkobaia> Hi all : )
<madeinkobaia> I've got an idea for the social network banners.
<smartboyhw> madeinkobaia: Do tell us;)
<madeinkobaia> Hi : ) What about adding a kind of sticker on the banners, with a slogan, something like "13.04 release available now !"  we could keep that version with stickers during 2 weeks, since the first day of the released date.
<smartboyhw> madeinkobaia: Whoa good!
<madeinkobaia> smartboy : Thanks, well I will try a version with that slogan, but is it correct in English ? Does it sounds good ?
<smartboyhw> madeinkobaia: extremely good!
<smartboyhw> zequence: ^
<madeinkobaia> smartboy : Have you an idea of the release date (more or less) ?
<smartboyhw> madeinkobaiaâ¦ Next thursday
<madeinkobaia> smartboy : Thanks, so I must hurry a little bit :P
<madeinkobaia> may I add a "sign of the horns" on it ? 8-)
<smartboyhw> madeinkobaia: What what?
<madeinkobaia> smartboy : its the name of the rock'n roll sign : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sign_of_the_horns
<smartboyhw> madeinkobaia: No no:P
<madeinkobaia> smartboy : lol, I was kidding
<madeinkobaia> smartboy :  I didn't knew that this sign have a name, I just discovered that too. I never heard something similar in french.
<DarkEra> zequence, the following: i re-installed the daily built i had on usb stick and left out 2 updates from the Ubuntu Studio base updates. X acceleration library -- runtime and Xorg X server - core server. Guess what, nividia-settings shows me a temperature of 60 Â°C now
<smartboyhw_> DarkEra: xserver-xorg is really killing computers:P
<DarkEra> the next step i will do is install the X acceleration library -- runtime update and leave out the Xorg X server -core server one to see what it does
<DarkEra> smartboyhw_, guess so :D
<DarkEra> really, it stays at 60 Â°C now after 5 minutes, no increase so far
<smartboyhw_> o_O
<smartboyhw_> O_o
<DarkEra> i'm glad i have this netbook to stay in touch while trying things on the laptop
<smartboyhw_> :)
<DarkEra> i'm going to install the runtime update now and reboot to see what happens next
<DarkEra> rebooting and crossing my grey hair for luck
<smartboyhw_> DarkEra: Good luck! ;)
<DarkEra> X acceleration library -- runtime is updated, temperature of the GPU is 61 and dropping
<DarkEra> so it's the Xorg X server update
<DarkEra> that causes trouble
<smartboyhw_> Grrr
<DarkEra> where to report it? at ubuntu studio on Launchpad or Ubuntu 
<DarkEra> nice, still 60 Â°C :)
<smartboyhw_> DarkEra: The package I think.
<smartboyhw_> ubuntu-bug <packagename>
<DarkEra> ok, i'll look into that
<DarkEra> smartboyhw_, do i need to join ubuntu first? when clicking on report a bug i'm forwarded to the Documentation/wiki
<smartboyhw_> DarkEra nornally you do report a bug using the method aboce
<DarkEra> now i'm lost... lol
<smartboyhw_> LOL
<smartboyhw_> DarkEra: Are you trying to report a bug against a specific package or just the Ubuntu project itself?
<DarkEra> well, i think the package then Xorg x server -core server
<DarkEra> best thing to do is report it on "xorg-server" package in Ubuntu then
<smartboyhw_> DarkEra: In a terminal type "apport-bug" there should have a specific button for X.org
<DarkEra> smartboyhw_, ah yes, i see Display (X.Org). Thank you :)
<smartboyhw_> DarkEra: :)
<smartboyhw_> madeinkobaia left:(
<holstein> smartboyhw_: lemme look
<smartboyhw_> holstein: OK thanks:)
<holstein> smartboyhw_: i might be back by then
<holstein> whats up?
<smartboyhw_> holstein: I need somebody to change channel topics for me in #ubuntustudio, it's release day.
<holstein> smartboyhw_: i can probably pop in and do that real quick
<smartboyhw_> I have privileges (along with zequence) in here but not user chan
<holstein> smartboyhw_: we used to do it several months late.. so, i think anytime that week would be an improvement
<smartboyhw_> holstein: Thanks!
<smartboyhw_> holstein: :O
<holstein> smartboyhw_: im around and free that morning for sure
<smartboyhw_> holstein: \o/
<smartboyhw> zequence: I thought of one thing: Shouldn't contact@ubuntustudio.org divert emails to you now?
<zequence> DarkEra: What exactly did you update? Do you have a list of the packages you updated?
<DarkEra> i had a daily built but can't remenber from what date but it wasn't too old and applied all updates except Xorg x server - core server zequence 
<DarkEra> dunno if i can get a output or history of the updated packages
<zequence> DarkEra: What do you get when you do: apt-cache show xserver-xorg-core | grep Version
<DarkEra> Version: 2:1.13.3-0ubuntu6   Version: 2:1.13.3-0ubuntu5
<zequence> DarkEra: So, it's the latest version
<DarkEra> the latest version is the one that causes the trouble yes
<zequence> DarkEra: So, how did you verify, exactly?
<DarkEra> i didn't install it and all is working as should
<zequence> madeinkobaia: I like the idea of the social banners. You want to use the ones you already did?
<zequence> DarkEra: But, now you installed it and it doesn't work anymore?
<zequence> er, wait
<zequence> Let me check something
<DarkEra> the temperature of the GPU is still around 60 to 63Â°C which is ok, when i install the update it goes up to 78Â°C
<DarkEra> so, i left it out
<zequence> DarkEra: Could you please verify by installing only xserver-xorg-core, by doing: sudo apt-get install --only-upgrade xserver-xorg-core
<zequence> Then, you can revert back
<zequence> if you like
<madeinkobaia> zequence : I think so, I will just add a sticker on it (but a great one ; ) )
<DarkEra> zequence, it's the only update i have left now. How can i revert it back afterwards when rebooted?
<DarkEra> i'm always willing to learn :)
<madeinkobaia> zequence : If you're agree for the slogan "13.04 release available now ! " I start work on it this w.e.
<zequence> DarkEra: It should work with: sudo apt-get install xserver-xorg-core=2:1.13.3-0ubuntu5
<zequence> DarkEra: Or maybe not
<zequence> DarkEra: It didn't work on this Debian install, but it will as soon as I change repos which has older versions
<DarkEra> zequence, ok, i'll install it to verify. If it can't be reverted i re-install 13.04 again. No big deal and should be done within 30 minutes including updating. I just want this release to rock just like you do :)
<zequence> DarkEra: Great. Thanks!
<DarkEra> no thanks zequence , that's why i joined in in the first place :)
<DarkEra> switching to the netbook and then reboot the laptop
 * DarkEra bangs his head against the wall
<zequence> DarkEra: No temp increase?
<zequence> I think these kind of issues are not easy to track down, unless you know well what components in the OS could be responsible
<DarkEra> it's a bit higher zequence instead of 60/62Â°C i now have 63 to 65 Â°C but that's it for now after multiple reboots as test
<DarkEra> weird stuff
<zequence> DarkEra: Are you absolutely sure it's higher now. How are you measuring? Idle session, only using sensors?
<zequence> Is the computer in the same place. Did you have sunlight on it before, etc..
<zequence> If it is higher because of xorg, I think it's worth reporting
<DarkEra> i look at the GPU temperature in nvidia-settings, before the xorg x server update it was between 60 and 62 Â°C. Now as said before, it starts at 63 Â°C and goes up to 65 Â°C sometimes but that's ok i guess. Yesterday the temperature started at 72 Â°C and went up to 78 Â°C at some point The laptop is still in the same place en temperature.
<DarkEra> en/and
<DarkEra> the joys of testing :D
<DarkEra> by the way, nvidia settings and Xchat are the only two i use right now
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-04-20
<smartboyhw> zequence, is http://paste.ubuntu.com/5723796/ OK?
<zequence> smartboyhw: looks fine to me
<smartboyhw> zequence, post?
<zequence> sure
 * smartboyhw should delete the 12.10 thing in here.
<smartboyhw> DONE
* smartboyhw changed the topic of #ubuntustudio-devel to: Ubuntu Studio Development Channel | https://code.launchpad.net/ubuntustudio | Ubuntu Studio 12.04.02 LTS is released: ISO- http://goo.gl/FEAxP Notes-http://goo.gl/29QaS |Ubuntu Studio 13.04 (Raring Ringtail) Beta 2 released http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntustudio/releases/13.04/beta-2/
<smartboyhw> Or rather: Change the Beta 2 = Please test RC
* smartboyhw changed the topic of #ubuntustudio-devel to: Ubuntu Studio Development Channel | https://code.launchpad.net/ubuntustudio | Ubuntu Studio 12.04.02 LTS is released: ISO- http://goo.gl/FEAxP Notes-http://goo.gl/29QaS | Please test the 13.04 RC images in http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntustudio/dvd/current
<smartboyhw> That's better!
<smartboyhw> zequence, ^
<zequence> smartboyhw: Are you posting to the website too?
<smartboyhw> zequence, posting:P
<zequence> I'm going to the store. Once I get back, I'll post to G+ and facebook too
<smartboyhw> zequence, the store!?
<smartboyhw> What store:P
<smartboyhw> DONE for posting in the website
 * smartboyhw decides to write an artwork blog post for Ubuntu Studio along with the testing call
 * smartboyhw is downloading the Ubuntu Studio 7.10 ISO for fun:P
<zequence> Just the local food store
<zequence> I posted on G+ and facebook too
<smartboyhw> zequence, :)
<zequence> Never trust the weather man. He's the biggest lier in the world
<smartboyhw> zequence, :O
<smartboyhw> It's true
<smartboyhw> zequence, heh in "shared friends" I'm not included:P
<smartboyhw> In the G+ page of Ubuntu Studio (official)
<zequence> smartboyhw: What is "shared friends"?
<smartboyhw> zequence, that means two people both have the other in their circles.
<zequence> The Ubuntu Studio G+ page hasn't added anyone to its circles
<smartboyhw> zequence, er wait
<smartboyhw> zequence, in https://plus.google.com/u/0/102125777892703446963/posts
<smartboyhw> I see six people: madeinkobaia, scott-work, you, holstein, astraljava and Darkera
<smartboyhw> No me:O
<zequence> You mean, you see them in the "X IN COMMON WITH YOU"
<smartboyhw> zequence, yep
 * smartboyhw has an Chinese interface of G+ sorry:P
<zequence> That means they also have that page in their circle
<smartboyhw> zequence, hmm i didn't/
<zequence> Ubuntu Studio doesn't have anyone in its circle
<smartboyhw> ?
<smartboyhw> Oh bother
<smartboyhw> Or maybe it doesn't show myself?
 * smartboyhw doesn't understand.
<zequence> It means you have them in your circles, and both you and them have Ubuntu Studio
<smartboyhw> zequence, ah:O
<smartboyhw> Hmm that's really few people:(
<smartboyhw> zequence, I seriously wonder:
<smartboyhw> In the "Support and Feedback" page of our website it says:
<smartboyhw> "There are also #ubuntustudio-es and #ubuntustudio-fr for spanish and french speaking users."
<smartboyhw> Are these two channels still active?
<smartboyhw> As far as I can tell when I join the two channels there is only ChanServ and me
<smartboyhw> And none of the channels have a topic
<smartboyhw> Should we just simply remove this line?
<smartboyhw> Hey DarkEra :)
<DarkEra> hey smartboyhw ;)
<smartboyhw> DarkEra, did you receive my e-mail to the -devel mailing list about RC testing?
<smartboyhw> The milestone hasn't been created yet
<smartboyhw> But the Ubuntu Release Team told us to start testing:)
<DarkEra> oh shi-.... i didn't subscribe to that yet. Sorry.
<DarkEra> i read something about it on G
<DarkEra> G+
<DarkEra> ah i see
<DarkEra> lemme first try to wake up my brain, had a sleepless night
<smartboyhw> DarkEra, :O
<smartboyhw> DarkEra, we have that in our main website ubuntustudio.org
<DarkEra> i know :)
<smartboyhw> DarkEra, however: Please DO subscribe to the mailing list:)
<DarkEra> i will do so for sure, don't worry
<smartboyhw> DarkEra, :P
<DarkEra> done
<smartboyhw> DarkEra, \o/
<smartboyhw> DarkEra, your wallpaper can be made into an full theme:P
<DarkEra> hmmm?
<DarkEra> you mean a pack?
<smartboyhw> DarkEra, a pack of wallpapers:P
<DarkEra> would be cool. I just saw the post on G+ but.... i think the logo should stay blue instead of purple. I'm going to try something
<smartboyhw> DarkEra, :P
* smartboyhw changed the topic of #ubuntustudio-devel to: Ubuntu Studio Development Channel | https://code.launchpad.net/ubuntustudio | Ubuntu Studio 12.04.2 LTS is released: ISO- http://goo.gl/FEAxP Notes-http://goo.gl/29QaS | Please test the 13.04 RC images in http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntustudio/dvd/current
<smartboyhw> There's no .02 :P
<smartboyhw> It's just .2
<DarkEra> one purple wallpaper with blue logo coming up
<smartboyhw> DarkEra, :)
<DarkEra> smartboyhw, better? 
<smartboyhw> DarkEra, \o/
<smartboyhw> Hey hey madeinkobaia :)
<madeinkobaia> Hello smartboyhw ! :) 
<madeinkobaia> About the social banners slogan, for the moment my idea is this one "13.04 release available now !" if anyone have a suggestion, another proposition feel free to contact me by mail this week-end : madeinkobaia@ubuntustudio.org.
<smartboyhw> madeinkobaia, oh we added an email for you? Good!
<smartboyhw> \o/.
<madeinkobaia> 8-)
<madeinkobaia> ;)
 * smartboyhw searches for madeinkobaia's ticket in RT
<smartboyhw> madeinkobaia, hmm you don't need an RT ticket?
<madeinkobaia> You didn't find the ticket ?
<smartboyhw> madeinkobaia, NOPE sorry
<madeinkobaia> Wiat
<smartboyhw> madeinkobaia, it's probably closed so I can't find it.
<smartboyhw> madeinkobaia, give me your ticket number.
<smartboyhw> :P
<madeinkobaia> Its resolved, but normally you can find it even in that case
<smartboyhw> madeinkobaia, no:(
<smartboyhw> madeinkobaia, yeah I got it
<smartboyhw> RT TIick 21383
<smartboyhw> \o/
<madeinkobaia> Yep that's it: ) Just for testing I tried with keywords to find it, without success, their search engine is a little bit freakish :P
<smartboyhw> madeinkobaia, :P
<smartboyhw> madeinkobaia, congrats for having an official @ubuntustudio.org address!
<smartboyhw> zequence, I do think though: It is rather difficult for us to always file an RT ticket for e-mail address requests. Can't we do like create a team at Launchpad, then ask the Canonical IS to set up a cron server so that who gets added to the team can get an @ubuntustudio.org address? That is after all possible for Ubuntu/Kubuntu/Edubuntu members.
<zequence> smartboyhw: I suggested that, but they preferred to do it this way
<smartboyhw> zequence, yeah since we don't have official councils.
<smartboyhw> and *official* members
<madeinkobaia> bbl, enjoy the sun for those who have some :)
<smartboyhw> madeinkobaia, rainy here.
<madeinkobaia> :(
<smartboyhw> zequence, how about in your city?
<smartboyhw> Hurray I've done all the summaries for UWN 313:)
<DarkEra> bbl, going for a walk
<len-1304> smartboyhw, re: the email, shouldn't we be dropping our results in the daily iso tracker anyway?
 * len-1304 has been, will do today.
<smartboyhw> len-1304, not now I think. I worry that I will not be able to see the results anyway.....
<smartboyhw> If it gets respun
<len-1304> I thought they are archived
<smartboyhw> len-1304, and I don't normally have interest in archived things.
<len-1304> Anyway, I haven't done yesterdays yet but the day before was fine.
<len-1304> smartboyhw, not much choice in this case
<smartboyhw> len-1304, and that's just two days until the milestone will be created. 
<smartboyhw> len-1304, :)
<len-1304>  I think others look there to see if we are testing though.
<smartboyhw> len-1304, we are at least good enough to start testing now.
<smartboyhw> Most flavours haven't started
<smartboyhw> len-1304, I do think this release will be rather bugless (since we got headers fixed and such)
<len-1304> We have been basically ready for release since B2
<smartboyhw> len-1304, yeah.
<smartboyhw> len-1304, any suggestions/ideas for 13.10 & 14.04 LTS?
<len-1304> We are mostly testing to make sure vanilla changes haven't messed us up.
<len-1304> some. I will be doing more menu stuff for sure, try to clean up the settings mess.
<smartboyhw> len-1304, I don't think so. The Ubuntu Community QA Team has done a cadence week to test the images in this week (though some of us including me drifted off to Testdrive hacking)
<smartboyhw> len-1304, \o/
<len-1304> I am not so enthused at the RT kernel thing, but it does make people happy that it is there.
<len-1304> I have found that ootb rt doesn't help that much
<smartboyhw> len-1304, I am not enthused too
<smartboyhw> But we do want our users happy:P
<len-1304> If a user is going to do really low latency work they have to be willing to do some manual tweaking.
<len-1304> For recording, what we have already does very well ootb
<smartboyhw> Some people are just too lazy to do tweaks in kernel but too enthusiastic about extremely low-latency
<zequence> -rt outperforms -lowlatency easily, in the right circumstances. It's a high tech addition, and as long as someone is willing to maintain it, it doesn't hurt to add one
<zequence> We won't replace -lowlatency with it
<smartboyhw> zequence, someone = me (when I have spare time)
<zequence> It think that would be a bad idea
<smartboyhw> I think we should just put it in a PPA.
<zequence> I'm also interested in adding a -rt kernel, and given the fact that I'm getting more comfortable in maintaining kernel source, it isn't such a huge step to start a new kernel
<zequence> If we add it, we add it to the main repo. No PPA
<len-1304> zequence, I agree, rt can do well, but if there are irq rpoblems or bios missettings it comes to nothing.
<smartboyhw> zequence, OK
<smartboyhw> len-1304, let's see how much we can put in.
<len-1304> I certainly agree with having an RT kernel though.
<smartboyhw> zequence, if I don't see you in five years as a Canonical Kernel Team employee I'll be feeling surprised:P
<zequence> Software development is really just a side interest for me, as it is for many of us here. My main focus is music. 
<zequence> But, if I'm offered a job, and I'm free, I won't say no
<zequence> I don't think it'll be hacking kernels though. Unless I really start studying
 * smartboyhw faints over so much "support" things today
<smartboyhw> zequence: I tried to install the ISOs of Ubuntu Studio 7.10 and 8.04 today in a VM. Both of them failed with software installation:P
<smartboyhw> Let me install 10.04.4 one day.
<smartboyhw> zequence: When did Ubuntu Studio drop linux-rt actually?
<zequence> smartboyhw: The last supported -rt was included in 9.10. Some releases before didn't have it
<smartboyhw> zequence: OK
<smartboyhw> zequence: Speaking about vUDS, our plan was to make people come and ask questions (feeling like Ubuntu OnAir!) right?
<zequence> smartboyhw: Yes, I was planning for us to have a session there
<zequence> smartboyhw: Why do you ask?
<smartboyhw> zequence: Mark me not attending:P
<zequence> smartboyhw: School?
<smartboyhw> zequence: I have exam on early June. I will be grounded for computers.
<smartboyhw> 13.04 will be my last big job to complete pre-exa
<zequence> smartboyhw: It's Saturday. You should go out to the sun and buy yourself an ice cream
<smartboyhw> After all, this exam affects what subject we will choose.
<zequence> school is more important than this
<smartboyhw> zequence: Er I should go asleep now, just idling:P
<zequence> right. It's getting late even
<zequence> It's best to go to sleep before 10. I try to, but I seldom get the chance
<smartboyhw> zequence: See ya then.
<zequence> smartboyhw: GN
<len-1304> zequence, smartboyhw , 13.04 looks good. Jack, pulse and audio stuff seems to work fine.
<len-1304> The only issue I have is with video stuff. Blender still kills X. That would be the open nvidia driver.
<len-1304> I have an older card that is no longer supported by closed drivers so there is not much I can do about that.
<zequence> len-1304: Sure it's the drivers themselves, and not just your graphic card?
<len-1304> Anything is possible. The card works for most stuff. Blender and  mixxx are the only two I know where it doesn't.
<len-1304> I don't have a real need to fix it though as I don't do video stuff
<len-1304> zequence, does the standard video player work for you?
<zequence> len-1304: Would be nice to report it though, especially if it's related to the drivers
<len-1304> Totem I think.
<zequence> I haven't had much time to do testing. 
<len-1304> Tomtem doesn't work for me either, but xine and any of the other install do.
<len-1304> zequence, bug 1008259
<ubottu> bug 1008259 in Ubuntu Studio "Installing dssi-vst causes numerous other packages to be removed" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1008259
<len-1304> This is a 64bit problem.
<len-1304> I guess it tries to install the 32bit packages instead.
<len-1304> Because of wine problems
<len-1304> I don't know that it is fixable
<zequence> ardour in Quantal has a problem. Missing one dependency which makes the LV2 guis not look flashy
<zequence> I'm test building the Raring version on Quantal. It's really the same version, with the bugfix as one of the changes
<zequence> Should be an easy SRU
<DarkEra> zequence, i noticed a while back in 12.10 that the LV2 plugins look just like the ladspa plugins. Do you mean that?
<zequence> DarkEra: Yes
<zequence> I have the 64bit version of ardour built here ppa:zequence/ubuntustudio-sru-testing
<zequence> 32bit is in que
<zequence> cue*
<zequence> Or, is it queue?
<zequence> ..the many versions of Q
<len-1304> que is short for queue as in line up and wait
<len-1304> cue is can be a ball (the round ones not the dance) or a prompt.
<DarkEra> i'm thinking about to wipe the third partition and help testing the daily builds (RC's) the upcoming days if i have the time. That way this laptop is a Ubuntu Studio triple boot machine if i do so
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-04-21
<smartboyhw> Len-lb!?
<smartboyhw> That's a new name:P
<len-1304> From my wife laura's netbook.
<len-1304> Her hard drive was starting to go. I got a new drive but she has yet to use even 20G and the new drive is bigger than mine so she has my old one and I have the 500 g
<len-1304> But my account is still on her drive.
<len-1304> smartboyhw, The ISO does different things on startup then the installed version.
<len-1304> My netbook doesn't work right and I have to terminate the VGA connector to get video... with the ISO it works (better)
<smartboyhw> Ag.
<smartboyhw> s/Ag/Ah/
<kubotu> smartboyhw meant: "Ah."
<smartboyhw> Wb len-1304 
<smartboyhw> Or Len-nb :P
<wrik> hi
<wrik> hello team
<wrik> my first time in here
<smartboyhw> wrik, hello!
<wrik> just messing around with the idea of ubuntu these days
<wrik> been a couple of months now, i have used ubuntu 12.10
<smartboyhw> wrik, uh huh
<wrik> just came up and saw the ubuntu studio thing
<smartboyhw> wrik, \o/
<wrik> so wanted to know, if someone like me, who has no freakin idea abt what programming is all abt, do anything for the community?
<smartboyhw> wrik, hurray!
<smartboyhw> zequence, ^
<smartboyhw> There are a lot of things to do in our community.
<smartboyhw> 1. Documentation
<wrik> hmmm.. nice
<smartboyhw> You can help to write documentation for users of Ubuntu Studio.
<wrik> keep it coming.. let me see where i fit in
<smartboyhw> 2. Testing
<smartboyhw> We are just about to release 13.04 in Thursday, so you can help test the images and report some bugs!
<smartboyhw> 3. Artwork
<smartboyhw> You can help us design wallpapers and banners!
<wrik> not a designer expect minor collages on gimp
<smartboyhw> wrik, :)
<wrik> isnt ubuntu 13.04 officially being done up on that day itself
<smartboyhw> That's the three *major* trend
<smartboyhw> wrik, Ubuntu along with Ubuntu Studio and other flavors
<wrik> hmmm.. now that i know, i will perhaps be in a better position to say and do positive things to the community.. 
<smartboyhw> wrik, 4. support
<smartboyhw> We have support channels in #ubuntustudio IRC channel, Ubuntu Studio Forums and such
<wrik> but then, it seems that we are the only 2 users speaking and rest r sleeping.. lols!!
<wrik> hmm..
<smartboyhw> s/Ubuntu Studio Forums/Ubuntu Studio section in Ubuntu Forums/
<kubotu> smartboyhw meant: "We have support channels in #ubuntustudio IRC channel, Ubuntu Studio section in Ubuntu Forums and such"
<smartboyhw> wrik, um some of them are awake, they just aren't at their computers!
<smartboyhw> I think zequence (our project lead) is awake.
<wrik> ha ha ha ha.. anyways nice to have spotted this place.. will be looking to hang out soon and sort things out
<smartboyhw> wrik, good!
<smartboyhw> Oh, he left:(
 * smartboyhw hasn't introduced the mailing lists yet.
<smartboyhw> zequence, I think your "contribute promotion" is somewhat starting to work:)
<smartboyhw> Hello DarkEra :)
<DarkEra> good afternoon smartboyhw and the others
<DarkEra> smartboyhw, is the new wallpaper better that i posted last night?
<smartboyhw> DarkEra, :)
<DarkEra> ok, that says enough. lol
<smartboyhw> DarkEra, lol
<DarkEra> ;)
<smartboyhw> zequence, hey is wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/SReleaseSchedule OK?
<smartboyhw> I played a bit:P
<smartboyhw> zequence, speaking about this: How do you want to make the 13.04 final release announcement?
<smartboyhw> Hey madeinkobaia:)
<madeinkobaia> Hello smartboyhw ! How are you ?
<DarkEra> o/
<smartboyhw> madeinkobaia: Good:)
<madeinkobaia> Cool :)
<smartboyhw> DarkEra: Where are you from;
<smartboyhw> ?
<DarkEra> you mean which country smartboyhw ?
<smartboyhw> DarkEra: uh huh
<DarkEra> i mentioned it before that i live in Belgium. Not too far from the Dutch border. :)
<madeinkobaia> darkera : Oh, nice to meet a Belgium fellow \o/ 
<smartboyhw> Ah yeah, I forgotteb
<DarkEra> madeinkobaia, ;)
<smartboyhw> We have two Belgians, two Americans, one Swedish, one Canadian and a Chinese;P
<DarkEra> smartboyhw, no worries, that happens to me too sometimes
<DarkEra> but from origin a am German :)
<madeinkobaia> smartboyhw : even a French, with ttoine :D
<DarkEra> do you guys do anything with music by the way?
<madeinkobaia> darkera : For sure, I playing few instruments and I am a composer
<DarkEra> madeinkobaia, that's awesome :)
 * smartboyhw does more video
<madeinkobaia> darkera : Yep that's great : )  and you ?
<DarkEra> madeinkobaia, i'm just listening to my old tracks i made on a playstation 1 and 2 that i made between 2000 and 2003. My plan is to get back into music creation soon on Linux (Ubuntu Studio)
<DarkEra> bah, one made to many... LOL
<madeinkobaia> smartboyhw : What means a message with *** before the nickname ? (I am a dumb on irc ;p)
<DarkEra> should be created
<smartboyhw> madeinkobaia: What??
<DarkEra> madeinkobaia, i have them on Soundcloud but for some it's not their cup of tea
<madeinkobaia> smartboyhw : Sometimes I see some messages and before the nickname it is display 3 stars : ***  
<smartboyhw> madeinkobaia: The /me command. Like if I type /me says hello!
 * smartboyhw say hello!
<smartboyhw> see?
<madeinkobaia> Ok, get it ;)
<madeinkobaia> smartboyhw : Highly interesting to replace "by my self" by that command : )
<smartboyhw> madeinkobaia: :)
<madeinkobaia> smartboyhw : ;)
<madeinkobaia> darkera : Witch kind of music is it ? What do you mean by "their" ?
<madeinkobaia> smartboyhw : You're working on video ? You mean filming ?
<DarkEra> madeinkobaia, Hard to explain... chill out/enigmatic/oldfield kinda style. gonna drop a link to it, hold on :)
<smartboyhw> madeinkobaia: I only do the processing;p
<DarkEra> some people say it's nice but not their personal taste of music
<DarkEra> https://soundcloud.com/mathius-quest
<madeinkobaia> darkera : Great, I will check that : )
<DarkEra> cool, thanks :)
<madeinkobaia> smartboyhw : ok :)
<madeinkobaia> darkera : Not right now, a little bit latter : ( stay in touch.
<DarkEra> madeinkobaia, feel free to check it out whenever you like and have the time. No worries
<madeinkobaia> darkera : No worries :)
<zequence> Anyone on Raring? There might be a problem with starting jackd1 on Quantal, using qjackctl. Apparently someone was able to start it from the command line, but not using qjackctl.
<smartboyhw> zequence: Tmr maybe.
<smartboyhw> zequence: You saw my SReleaseSchedule thing?
<DarkEra> zequence, i am on a up to date Raring 64bit 
<zequence> DarkEra: Could you try install jackd1, and see if you can start it both from command line, and qjackctl?
<smartboyhw> DarkEra: Woohoo!
<DarkEra> zequence, sure :)
<zequence> DarkEra: jackd1 is not able to grab the card from pulseaudio, so you need to either choose another card, or use: "pasuspender --" before the command to suspend pulseaudio
<zequence> smartboyhw: Nope
<zequence> Ok, I saw the link
<smartboyhw> zequence: \o/
<DarkEra> it'll remove some packages but that's normal i guess
<zequence> DarkEra: Yes. We should look into that too. Doesn't seem reasonable for that to happen
<DarkEra> zequence, ok
<DarkEra> gonna log out and back in. brb
<zequence> So many packages are depending on libjack-jackd2-0
<zequence> Or, are they recommends?
<zequence> Anyway, it's a little messy
<smartboyhw> zequence: Dependencies are usually messy:P
<DarkEra> ok, zequence qjackctl starts as should, gonna try the terminal
<DarkEra> zequence, just jackd in the terminal, right?
<micahg> zequence: please file bugs if there's not an alternate dependency and should be
<micahg> we can get that cleaned up for S
<micahg> ISTR a mass bug file for that in Debian a while back
<zequence> ISTR?
<micahg> I seem to recall
<zequence> micahg: Sorry, I meant what does it mean?
<micahg> ISTR == I Seem To Recall
<DarkEra> zequence, how to try it from the terminal? 
<zequence> DarkEra: If you are able to start jack with qjackctl, then that's fine
<zequence> DarkEra: Someone had problems specifically with qjackctl
<zequence> smartboyhw: Nice work on the Release Schedule. Saves me the trouble :)
<DarkEra> zequence, ok :)
<DarkEra> bbl
<zequence> We need to add checksums and info on how to check them on our website
<DarkEra> +1
<zequence> Actually, I'd like to do some changes to the website for the Raring release
<zequence> Well, at least add the slogan to the logo at the top
<DarkEra> one thing for the 13.04 release notes, make sure that this isn't included again: New software included: Xfce updated to version 4.10 (based off of Xubuntu)
<DarkEra> it's been used in 12.10 too and 13.04 beta 2
<zequence> smartboyhw: ^
<zequence> smartboyhw: btw, if you're still up, go to sleep :)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2014-04-14
<zequence> OvenWerk1: We might need to do some last minute changes still. Indicator stuff. I could drop arandr while I'm at that
<eagles0513875> hey zequence
<eagles0513875> the problem we have is our master branch uses submodules which wont work with bzr
<eagles0513875> which is honestly a shame 
<zequence> eagles0513875: I thought you said there was a new package already?
<eagles0513875> zequence: i know the person who is packaging lmms has one but im not sure if its ready just yet
<eagles0513875> should i mention that in the bug
<zequence> eagles0513875: Ok, well, wait until it is. Then, link it to the bug report. After that, subscribe the two teams: ubuntu-release ubuntu-sponsors
<zequence> eagles0513875: I'll make sure to test the package once it's ready. And, try to convince someone to upload it
<eagles0513875> the person who made the package and he had no issues with 14.04 building etc
<eagles0513875> as dependencies that are on the version currently in 14.04 have not changed just the branch being used is the issue
<zequence> eagles0513875: I don't doubt that. But, I can't do much else than that. And testing the final package is of course a must in either case
<eagles0513875> understood
<eagles0513875> Would any devs be willing ot help with a major upgrade to lmms's core
<zequence> None of us do much coding of that kind. I would try at the LAD mail list
<eagles0513875> ya ill head over to their channel
<OvenWerk1> eagles0513875, zequence: We already have a new lmms. My last ISO when I ran the upgrade got 1.* ... Or is there a newer one?
<OvenWerk1> The only problem I had was that I had to remove one of the packages nvidia installs to get it to install. (either the old or new version) The nvidia driver still works fine with one monitor without the nvidia specific lib, but with two monitors I can not place windows more than half way over on the right monitor. It works fine with the open driver though.
<OvenWerk1> I don't think it is LMMS itself, but the 32bit LMMS version includes wine.
 * OvenWerk1 has an old P4
<OvenWerk1> This is a new problem with 14.04 as I am using the nvidia drivers in 13.10 and have wine installed and dual monitors.
<OvenWerk1> Ah, sorry just got the rest of the story from the other channel.
<OvenWerk1> Sounds like a mistake I might make...
#ubuntustudio-devel 2014-04-15
<zequence> OvenWerk1: I know we have a new lmms. I was working on getting that in. However, it was apparently taken from a branch which had some experimental features, and bugs.
<zequence> Ah, right. You saw that later :)
<zequence> Did a EFI install on virtualbox the other day. Worked fine, until I was supposed to boot into it now to try work out some weird DE behaviour we have
<zequence> I need to make sure we have bluetooth after recent changes, and that we don't have multiple indicators
<zequence> Our DE setup is a disaster
<zequence> I think it's best we create a default which is very minimal - easy to maintain, and then give the user the choice to install any existing DE (or flavor DE meta) during installation
<zequence> Wow, I'm getting the same bug that guy on the mail list was getting
<zequence> Worked fine the other day - like, yesterday, with the same ISO??
<zequence> hmm, the only difference is - there's already an installation on the HD
<zequence> ubuntustudio-meta was updated, not yet in the repos
<zequence> ..is now. There will be a respin of our ISO (probably for other reasons too)
<zequence> We might need to wait until tomorrow before doing final testing
<zequence> Ah, crap. light-locker-settings might have been something we wanted also
<zequence> I don't care. Our ISO looks good now. We can fix things afterwards
<zequence> Going to do other things for a while now :)
<eagles0513875> hey zequence
<eagles0513875> should have a 1.0.1 package today ready for testing i told the packager to update the bug
<eagles0513875> do you need the link again 
<cub> OvenWerk1, I think 32 bit LMMS pulls in Wine for VST support.
<eagles0513875> zequence: ping
<eagles0513875> cub: yes it does
<eagles0513875> the current 1.0 is a build from our master 
<eagles0513875> atm cub me and the packager are working on getting it fixe before release
<eagles0513875> cub: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/lmms/+bug/1307591
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1307591 in lmms (Ubuntu) "LMMS 1.0 baed off the wrong branch" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<eagles0513875> zequence: ^
<eagles0513875> cub: you are right about lmms pulling in wine for vst support. 32bit currently only does it I think 64bit does not as we have issues with it
<cub> eagles0513875, yeah I followed the discussions on the mailing lists and irc logs.
<eagles0513875> cub: :D ok should have a fixed version of the package soon im in contact with the packager as we speak and he said it has built for precise so far :) 
<cub> and correct, LMMS on 64 bit ubuntu studio doesn't include wine. I was surprised when I installed on my old pc 32 bit and suddenly got wine.
<eagles0513875> cub: are you on 14.04
<cub> yup, installed on a usb stick on my GFs windows laptop. :P
<eagles0513875> zequence: cub can any of you guys test this fixed package on 14.04 and see if there are any stuff like watsyn and monstro to name two things as well as any FX enhancements
<eagles0513875> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/lmms/+bug/1307591
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1307591 in lmms (Ubuntu) "LMMS 1.0 baed off the wrong branch" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<eagles0513875> there is a link to the ppa there :D
<eagles0513875> if you guys done see any of that stuff mentioned in the bug I can move forward in requesting MOTU to potentially release this package with 14.04 instead of the bad package
<cub> ah I can't run any tests on this laptop since I keep it on an usb stick, I have kept it very tight.
<cub> sadly I dropped my usual laptop and broke it. 
<eagles0513875> ouch :( 
<cub> yeah bad timing
<eagles0513875> you can still install an app to a usb though
<cub> yes but I keep it very clean due to space and I don't want to break anything as it is my only means to run ubuntu right now. :d
<eagles0513875> understandable
<zequence> eagles0513875: Thanks. I'll give it a try
<zequence> eagles0513875: There's a problem with the changelog. I was working on it for a while, but lack the experience in fixing it quickly.
<zequence> eagles0513875: There's still a chance to do it tomorrow. I'll be working, so i won't have time to do anything until tomorrow evening. I'm heading to bed now.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2014-04-16
<OvenWerk1> zequence: re: changing the default pulse device as was talked about in the user channel. It could be difficult.
<OvenWerk1> I don't think we would get support changing the main pulseaudio package.
<OvenWerk1> (dual display is really nice BTW)
<OvenWerk1> It appears that while PA does ask for RT scheduling, it does not lock it's memory (meaning the OS is allowed to swap it out to disk)
<OvenWerk1> I am thinking that pulse as it comes stock, is setup to work best with plain desktop, higher latency audio on mostly internal cards.
<OvenWerk1> There may well be ways of setting it so it plays better with jack.
<OvenWerk1> If so, that would probably be one more thing for -controls to tackle.
<eagles0513875_> hey zequence  :D
<eagles0513875_> hey zequence im noticing the ISO respin is in progress, what version of 1.0 did you guys pull did you pull the 1.0.1 package?
<eagles0513875_> can anyone tell me if the 1.0.1 package was pulled into the iso respin for testing?
<elfy> eagles0513875_: I'm just booting the image - I can look there if you want
<eagles0513875_> elfy: yes please
<eagles0513875_> that way i can work with motu on getting it included before release
<elfy> eagles0513875_: what package are you actually talking about though :p
<eagles0513875_> lmms
<eagles0513875_> sorry i knew i forgot somethign I am still waking up granted i got up almost 3 hrs ago lol
<elfy> 1.0.0+bzr256
<Mirv> eagles0513875_: israel's branch is not proposed for merging, and no MOTU had uploaded it otherwise (I'm not sure if someone has promised to be looking after the upload?). I'll proposed it now and mark some things "Needs Fixing" from my POV (there is no upstream 1.0.1 version, and at the minimum it should be specified which commit the orig tarball is based off)
<eagles0513875_> Mirv: let me get you the bug that has the link to so you can update the bug report i had filed
<elfy> zequence: I'll manage to squeeze a couple of install tests in for you today - but I'm not in any position to do more than those
<Mirv> eagles0513875_: I've the bug, and I linked israel's branch now there too and gave my comments on the merge proposal
<Mirv> for a MOTU to be able to review the upload, he needs to be able to verify the upstream tarball so knowing that commit is the most important thing. archive admins would probably also reject a "1.0.1" when there's no such upstream version, so renaming the version number as suggested should be done at the same time.
<eagles0513875_> Mirv: it pulls the tarball from what we have on sourceforge
<Mirv> eagles0513875_: no, it's not the 1.0.0 tarball, so it has to be some sort of snapshot instead?
<Mirv> I mean, from github instead of sourceforge
<Mirv> which is fine, but it should be just specified
<eagles0513875_> Mirv: currently its a snapshot form master
<eagles0513875_> which is what we dont want 
<eagles0513875_> we have a 1.0 stable branch which is what we have bzr based off of Israel is the person working on this as I have no idea on packaging
<eagles0513875_> tbh
<Mirv> eagles0513875_: yeah, so the snapshot from stable should specify which commit it's based off, similar to what the master is currently specified
<eagles0513875_> im just trying to ensure we have the right version in the repos for 14.04
<Mirv> yep, I'm trying to help so I gave that feedback that I know is needed to be handled before MOTU can upload it
<eagles0513875_> Mirv:  we already have a sponsor 
<Mirv> since tarballs of unknown origin cannot enter archives
<eagles0513875_> if you look at the bug timo seems to be sponsoring this fix
<Mirv> eagles0513875_: ok, is he in which timezone? maybe he could finish of israel's branch
<Mirv> eagles0513875_: I'm Timo, btw, and I don't have upload rights so I'm still just a helper, not a sponsorer :D
<Mirv> so you need someone who has upload rights to the universe
<eagles0513875_> oh ok :D
<eagles0513875_> i didnt know what your irc name was :D 
<eagles0513875_> thanks for your help on this
<Mirv> so for example https://launchpad.net/~motu/+members
<Mirv> SRU will be ok too, it's just more bureaucratic
<Mirv> no problem :D
<eagles0513875_> Mirv: any chance you can update the bug report with the above mentioned package name suggestion as israel is subscribed automatically to that bug
<Mirv> eagles0513875_: it's there in the linked branch's merge proposal discussion that is attached to the bug. I'll comment on the bug too so that it's noticed.
<eagles0513875_> thanks
<eagles0513875_> Mirv: im going to post the link on the bug as I just found it :D
<eagles0513875_> linked to the proposal
<Mirv> eagles0513875_: you too! :)
<Mirv> 2 seconds apart it looks (59 seconds ago, 57 seconds ago) :D
<eagles0513875_> lol 
<eagles0513875_> Mirv: spoke to dholbach in motu and he said a feature freeze exception would need to be filed.
<Mirv> eagles0513875_: oh, ok, he knows better. and I think he's correct. if it's indeed a new upstream stable branch update, it's a new release. so the "leanest option" of patching out the problematic master pieces with a distro patch would not have needed FFe but be a bug fix instead.
<eagles0513875_> ffe??
<Mirv> but the new stable branch snapshot is probably the best option, and getting FFe not a huge problem since the master branch snapshot has problematic commits
<Mirv> eagles0513875_: short for "Feature Freeze exception"
<eagles0513875_> ahh ok 
<eagles0513875_> sorry not used to the fancy short names :D
<eagles0513875_> Mirv: are you employed by canonical out of curiosity
<Mirv> when there are tens of FFe:s around it helps to use abbreviations :)
<Mirv> eagles0513875_: yes, and that's why I've my hands full of other stuff :) even on free time I'm preparing my local community (ubuntu-fi) stuff so release time is quite busy..
<Mirv> or I'm a contractor to be more precise, not employee
<eagles0513875_> kool
<Mirv> I started using ubuntu in 2004 and founded Ubuntu Finland in 2005, but for 7 years after that I worked on other embedded Linux stuff while staying active in the Ubuntu community
<eagles0513875_> Mirv: do you mind if i pm you as I dont want to end up off topic in this channel
<Mirv> eagles0513875_: yeah feel free, no Studio discussion anymore
<zequence> OvenWerk1: Any changes to Pulseaudio need to be done in code. Either one of us digs into it, or we try getting someone involved on it. Doing a wishlist bug, or finding someone in LAD that would like to do it
<zequence> Mirv: eagles0513875: I have someone willing to upload it fast, but as Mirv pointed out, the package needs to be fixed first
<zequence> Since this only affects our ISO, the release team is kind to us on this
<zequence> elfy: Thanks. I will do some testing myself today. Both ISOs. Don't stress it. Think we're fine on the most part, but if you do test, and find anything weird about the XFCE bits, please let me know
<elfy> I did 64bit - you appear to still have the ibus issue
<zequence> elfy: What is the issue with that?
<zequence> I didn't touch those, since I don't know what they do, tbh
<elfy> zequence: ok well basically the issue is - install with your keyboard layout - I used GB 
<zequence> elfy: Ok, so just removing those from seeds would fix that? Or do we need to add something too?
<elfy> password included a symbol - # for example, reboot - login works fine - as soon as you are at desktop it switches to US layout - so the password will fail 
<zequence> Ah
<elfy> I completely lost track of what we had to do in the end - it wasn't as simple as removing ibus I think
<elfy> we still get the issue for upgrades - workround is purge ibus before and then upgrade or either set up ibus or purge it afterwards
<elfy> and yes - ask in there :p
<zequence> thanks elfy 
<elfy> welcome
<zequence> Seems like we have two indicator applets for power again
<zequence> i can't believe i missed the ibus bug before
<elfy> zequence: such is life :)
<elfy> I tested on vm so wouldn't have seen power applet afaik
<elfy> I did see bluetooth - which we removed - but not sure if you actually used it so didn't comment
<zequence> I can live with two power applets until a possible SRU, but the login problem is quite severe
<zequence> installing latest now, and going to remove the ibus packages to see if that solves it
<zequence> seems like we have quite a sever bug with usb devices too
<zequence> OvenWerk1: Have you tested your usb device on latest releases?
<zequence> Might not affect you
<zequence> Bug 1308628
<ubottu> bug 1308628 in linux-lowlatency (Ubuntu) "xhci-hda does not support isochronous streaming on usb 2.0 devices" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1308628
<zequence> Bug 1299878
<ubottu> bug 1299878 in linux-lowlatency (Ubuntu) "ncsw_config.mk missing from linux-lowlatency kernel" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1299878
<zequence> elfy: The default keyboard layout in login manager was US english, but this time at least there was a swedish alternative. Wasn't there before, so some progress
<zequence> The different types of English were all there before, of course
<elfy> not here they weren't - not without setting ibus up - all that is in the list for me is US 
<elfy> I just wanted to bring it to your attention is all :) 
<zequence> elfy: Really? Ok. well, if purging the ibus packages is all that is needed, the fix should be simple enough
<elfy> the first time I got hit with it - it took me a while to suss that # was showing up as \ then I saw the damned icon in the panel :)
<zequence> ibus and indicator-power dropped from seeds
<elfy> :)
<zequence> Bug 1308755
<ubottu> bug 1308755 in ubuntustudio-meta (Ubuntu) "Two power manager applets in Ubuntu Studio Trusty release" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1308755
<elfy> if I'd known it was that simple I would have said 
<zequence> elfy: I won't say I'm sure until I test the ISO, but removing them seemed to do the job
<zequence> Bug 1284635
<ubottu> bug 1284635 in ibus (Ubuntu Trusty) "ibus does not support certain keyboard layouts" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1284635
<elfy> yep
<OvenWerk1> zequence: have you thought about the USB3 with USB2 Audio bug at all? Bug 1308628
<ubottu> bug 1308628 in linux-lowlatency (Ubuntu) "xhci-hda does not support isochronous streaming on usb 2.0 devices" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1308628
<OvenWerk1> I would think there will be a change in the kernel module at some point to "fix" this, but getting the driver moved to a module makes sense. The question is if the generic kernel maintainers are willing I would guess... or can we just do that for low latency?
<OvenWerk1> The change does not sound like a security problem.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2014-04-17
<eagles0513875_> hey Mirv  Israel asked if you are going to take care of getting his work merged
<Mirv> eagles0513875_: so the "merging" would be "uploading", and I can't do that. I can only continue reviewing his changes (but he hasn't done any new to the branch)
<zequence> OvenWerk1: Yeah, I posted that bug to you before, asking if you have had any usb poblems, but I suppose you haven't (usb1.1)
<zequence> For no reason, waking up on release day, I hear this in my head - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFPwm0e_K98
<zequence> (Also sprach Zarathustra)
<elfy> lucky you - I always wake with this in my head :p https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqUIDlQUj9Y
<elfy> zequence: you'll be pleased to know that I don't see the ibus indicator in 32bit this morning :)
<zequence> elfy: That's a relief :)
<elfy> just doing an install with it for you 
<zequence> OvenWerk1: I'll ask the kernel devs. We can't have diffs between -generic and -lowlatency, or we have to start maintaining it again. It's one and the same kernel, so all changes go into master
<elfy> zequence: once this is all done and dusted you are going to need a specific install testcase - no-one else has a pick audio/video etc option 
<zequence> elfy: Yes, there are a lot of things we could do to improve testing :P
<elfy> bug 1308877 and I've even assigned myself to it ;)
<ubottu> bug 1308877 in Ubuntu Manual Tests "Testcase is too basic for UbuntuStudio" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1308877
<elfy> zequence: well I will be about more this coming cycle if you want help :)
<elfy> zequence: and it didn't sneak in ibus so I passed it 
<zequence> elfy: I almost don't dare to listen too much on that music you linked to, so I don't end up having it in my head all the time
<zequence> Cool stuff though
<elfy> ha ha ha 
 * elfy has been listening to it for years and years
<zequence> breakfest, coffee, and then, zsync
<elfy> I'd zsync, breakfast, coffee - it was REALLY slow earlier 
<zequence> I'm at zsync already, and no worries, I already got one ISO down
<zequence> elfy: I still have the wrong keyboard layout in the login screen, but able to change it
<zequence> After doing it once, it stays
<zequence> I also get the wrong language. I chose English, but with Swedish kb layout. I got Swedish language setting and US kb layout
<zequence> The wrong way around
<elfy> zequence: I did see talk in -quality of a few language issues - not sure if those are what you're seeing
<elfy> I never got affected at login screen - that was always correct here 
<zequence> ok
<elfy> can't see anything on the image tracker list that looks similar though
<elfy> s/bug list
<zequence> since you probably have the same kb and language setting, you should have both right in the session too
<elfy> yea
<zequence> elfy: After installation, are you able to shut down normally? I haven't tried with a real machine yet.
<zequence> From the live seesion, that is
<elfy> yea - all that worked fine here
<cub> hi all
<zequence> cub: hi
<zequence> Just about mark us as ready, but that doesn't mean one can't stop testing :)
<cub> hehe
<cub> I haven't had a chance to run tests since beta2
<cub> though I'm running a 14.04 32 bit on my usb stick here
<cub> but I reckon I won't get rid of the old bugs until I reinstall?
<zequence> cub: Which one, the ibus thing?
<zequence> It's enough to purge the ibus package
<cub> I did that, but still have the keyboard issue on the login. Also two clocks in my bar
<cub> as well as bluetooth which I removed weeks ago but was pulled in yesterday again..weird
<zequence> cub: You have unity-control-center installed from before
<zequence> also, gnome-control-center
<zequence> bluetooth was added since we added blueman
<cub> unity-control-center said it would be removed when I uninstalled stuff just now
<cub> aha, i removed blueman again, but should probably done a purge
<zequence> Well, then. I feel all done. Release notes - partly copied from Ubuntu and Xubuntu, with our own additions https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TrustyTahr/ReleaseNotes/UbuntuStudio
<zequence> Just the wait to publish remains
<cub> I don't know if you want to mention that the installation now supports both braille and speech?
<zequence> cub: Ah, yes
<zequence> cub: Feel free to add to it. I'm heading home, will take a look later
<cub> right, it's on the wiki
<cub> bah I give up. I've logged in on the wiki 5 times, and the last time after editing and pressing save it went back to no being logged in and changes scrapped.
<eagles0513875_> hey Mirv 
<eagles0513875_> Mirv: included you in an email maybe you can explain the issues with the current fixed package of lmms please on the mailing list
<Mirv> eagles0513875_: not seeing e-mail, but I've responded to two Israel's e-mails. I really think the best place to discuss the packaging is the bug report and the merge request.
<eagles0513875_> mirv i have the whole mailing list eating me alive as they dont seem to understand what the current issue is with the current package
<zequence> eagles0513875_: There's no hurry to fix it now, since release is just hours away now, and nothing more is to be changed before release
<zequence> eagles0513875_: As soon as the package is ready, someone can just file an SRU bug for it, and get it uploaded withing the next coming weeks
<eagles0513875_> any chance you could mention that on the bug zequence 
<eagles0513875_> as everyone is panicked about getting it sorted asap
<eagles0513875_> i thought we had until the end of the month for release
<Mirv> there seems to be quite a lot of fear and uncertainty, but that must be because people are not familiar with how distributions work etc
<Mirv> as said, there's no hurry really, since SRU it is anyway
<Mirv> people may fear also because they think SRU:s don't happen (users get the feeling when their favorite software don't get upraded), but it's really only a question of doing the update and following the process steps, there's nothing particularly scary or problematic about those
<Mirv> there just needs to be checks in place, since it's available to millions of users
<zequence> I commented on the bug. Proposed to patch the current package in the repo so that the experimental features disappear, and just increment the version to 0ubuntu2
<eagles0513875_> zequence: thing is we already have a new package built from the right tarball but its become 1.0.1
<eagles0513875_> which Mirv  mentioned would be incorrect
<zequence> eagles0513875_: The package is not doable, which is why it needs to be fixed
<zequence> It's not ready
<eagles0513875_> zequence: i understand
<zequence> If it were, it would be in the repos now
<eagles0513875_> i dont know if its worth doign as you said and patch out the stuff that shouldnt be there but doing that there is still an issue of it being from the wrong branch and hence still unstable
<zequence> The diff in the new package is mostly text, not code. Patching the existing package in the repo would not be a lot of work, if someone is used to do that
<zequence> And, no need to change something that is not causing errors. Just the parts that are
<zequence> My estimate, from reading the diff was that not much needed to be changed
<zequence> The positive side of this is, lmms 1.0 is in. It won't go away, and it can be fixed at any time
<holstein> zequence: i didnt imly it did
<holstein> imple*
<holstein> imply*
<zequence> holstein: I think we might have cross written a bit there :)
<holstein> maybe
<zequence> ttoine: Hi
<ttoine> hello
<ttoine> i am downloading 14.04 on oxford university mirror
<ttoine> zequence, ready to officially download ?
<holstein> info lmms saucy
<holstein> !info lmms saucy
<holstein> !info lmms
<ubottu> lmms (source: lmms): Linux Multimedia Studio. In component universe, is optional. Version 0.4.15-0ubuntu1 (saucy), package size 4455 kB, installed size 10100 kB
<ubottu> lmms (source: lmms): Linux Multimedia Studio. In component universe, is optional. Version 1.0.0+bzr2569-0ubuntu1 (trusty), package size 4599 kB, installed size 12270 kB
<holstein> !info lmms trusty
<ubottu> lmms (source: lmms): Linux Multimedia Studio. In component universe, is optional. Version 1.0.0+bzr2569-0ubuntu1 (trusty), package size 4599 kB, installed size 12270 kB
<holstein> zequence: question.. do you have access to the website?
<zequence> holstein: Yep. And so do you :)
<holstein> zequence: i'll edit if you remind me how.. 
<zequence> holstein: Is there a mistake somewhere?
<holstein> http://ubuntustudio.org/download/
<zequence> holstein: You can login from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFPwm0e_K98
<holstein> has it been updated for 14.04? and im just not refreshed?
<zequence> I haven't seen the release announcement yet
<holstein> !isitout
<ubottu> yes, it is out! https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-announce/2014-April/000182.html
<zequence> Ah, ok. I was just out
<holstein> it just happened. 
<zequence> Been doing this for a few days, so it's not like I've forgotten
<holstein> :)
<holstein> ours may not be hot hyet
<holstein> yet*
<zequence> they should all be out, once the release announcement comes
<zequence> they wait until all is mature for download, even if the ISOs are all out
<holstein> i may be in the wrong place.. http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntustudio/releases/trusty/release/
<zequence> i can't see any ISOs out yet
<zequence> Seems like they've changed their habit. Ubuntu has it's own url for releases now
<zequence> Ah, not it's old
<zequence> Ok, they're working on it
<zequence> I'm going to prepare a release announcement. There's no particular hurry, really. Just that we do it soon
<holstein> zequence: nah.. not hurry.. just wanting to get the links hot and all that before anyone notices
<zequence> holstein: the download links themselves already work
<zequence> holstein: However, the final release is just a copy of the latest current
<zequence> so, which ever one you want
<zequence> the download links work, even if you can't see them on the page
<zequence> so, if you take an old one, an just mod it, it should work
<holstein> i'll try them and make sure.. 
<holstein> zequence: remind me how to edit the site?
<holstein> that youtube link is not doing it for me ;)
<zequence> holstein: I'll do that. I'm preparing a release announcement anyway
<zequence> youtube link?
<holstein> 14:19 < zequence> holstein: You can login from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFPwm0e_K98
<zequence> holstein: Hehe
<holstein> zequence: i got in.. i'll chip away at the update, if you like
<zequence> holstein: http://ubuntustudio.org/wp-admin
<zequence> holstein: Sure. I'm still working on the release announcement as we speak
<holstein> ok.. cheers
<holstein> i'll try not to break anything :)
<holstein> zequence: question. we have 13.10 and 12.04 listed.. should we just list 14.04 now?
<zequence> holstein: No, we can keep listing 12.04 as the old LTS, since it's supported for another year at least
<holstein> OK
<holstein> zequence: but, just 12.04 and 14.04? correct?
<zequence> holstein: Yeah
<holstein> i backed up the text from the site so i dont break anything.. im working on checking links nad editing
<holstein> zequence: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Trusty/ReleaseNotes/UbuntuStudio is where you put the notes?
<zequence> holstein: almost .. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TrustyTahr/ReleaseNotes/UbuntuStudio
<holstein> of course..
<holstein> thanks
<holstein> zequence: additional question..
<holstein> my torrent links and sums are 404'ing
<holstein> do you have a better link?
<holstein> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntustudio/releases/12.04.4/release/SHA256SUMS for example
<zequence> holstein: Might be we need to wait for those. If the download links work, I'm ok with that for now
<holstein> zequence: i'll try and comment out the broken stuff temporarily
<zequence> holstein: Or, I just wait with the announcement
<zequence> holstein: They're starting to get populated now
<zequence> the download pages, I mean
<zequence> checksums are up
<zequence> ..or were
<zequence> well, I'm going to chill for a while. I'll check in periodically. Once the pages look good, I do the release announcement
<holstein> zequence: if you're ok with it, i'll leave it for now
<holstein> but, if they are 404'ing, or wrong, i'll address it if you want
<zequence> holstein: Just leave it :)
<holstein> zequence: ok.. i think i got them edited properly to what they should become.. the direct links and release notes works..
<holstein> zequence: all is well :)
<zequence> holstein: Great. Just got back from the store for the second time (forgot some stuff there). Going to publish announcements shortly
<zequence> Ok, I'm over and out. Will just check in from time to time until after easter.
<zequence> ..then the new cycle beings, muhahahaa
 * OvenWerk1 got home just in time to miss it...
<zequence> eagles0513875: I'm done with the release. If no one has done anything with the package by the end of next week, I might take some time to look at it.
<eagles0513875> zequence: israel is working on it
#ubuntustudio-devel 2014-04-18
<OvenWerk1> Anyone else having trouble with the 32bit ISO on actual 32bit HW?
<holstein> OvenWerk1: i havnet had a chance to install yet
<OvenWerk1> I get blank screen part way into the boot.
<zequence> eagles0513875: Ok, great.
<eagles0513875> zequence: hopefully soon we can have something to SRU Mirv is kind enough to help with mentoring israel on the topic of packaging
<zequence> I deactivated MOTU as a member of ubuntustudio-dev, so they don't get our mail. Also, I'm hoping to get upload rights soon
<OvenWerk1> Ok, I managed to install 14.04. Live had to be run nomodeset to do that... unlike last week.
<OvenWerk1> On 32 bit systems with an nvidia card... wine (and therefore lmms) get removed.
<OvenWerk1> However, wine is not purged as the wine sub menu is still there.
<OvenWerk1> As the live ISO would probably try to run Nouveau, I am going to try switching to that. It did work with my HW as is before.
<OvenWerk1> Hmm, Nouveau no longer works properly on my system. It does not see two displays, does not show the right resolutions... basically looks like a nomodest boot.
<zequence> OvenWerk1: Seems like someone in xubuntu mail lists is having the same problem
<OvenWerk1> zequence: in our menu under system there is ubuntu studio controls. Clicking on that gives "Failed to execute command "gksu ubuntustudio-controls"."
<zequence> OvenWerk1: That's good. Then no one messes up their system until I have time to SRU it
<OvenWerk1> Probably we don't have gksu
<OvenWerk1> should be pkexec instead I think
<zequence> No, and it's too bad it let's people know how to start it
<zequence> The settings it does will just mess up things. I'll try to add a cleanup function in -controls to remove any settings in wrong files
<OvenWerk1> I have setup qjackctl to start at session start in systray and turned all my soundcards off in pulse. seems to work pretty good.
<OvenWerk1> Anyway, the nvidia driver works pretty good. Personally I don't use LMMS as it doesn't fit my workflow (no kb). I have no use for wine either.
<zequence> OvenWerk1: You removed wine manually?
<OvenWerk1> No, the install does it. The live session had wine/lmms, but during the install to disk it installs the nvidia drivers and removes wine as part of that.
<OvenWerk1> Bug 1309536 shouold be fixed in the latest ubuntustudio-installer that just needs to be uploaded.
<ubottu> bug 1309536 in Ubuntu Studio "LibreOffice can not start - fails to read from javaldx" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1309536
<OvenWerk1> It seems the guy had a fulkl disk which so the install failed. the new version of the installer catches errors.
<OvenWerk1> zequence: ^^
<OvenWerk1> Just watching Rany Bacxhman play his guitar with a drumstick, part way between normal and slide...
<OvenWerk1> Gaa my fingers keep hitting extra keys.
<OvenWerk1> zequence: re: Bug 1309641, I don't know if there is a way in ubuiquity to deal correctly with the mscorefont installer. but the issue should be noted in the release notes.
<ubottu> bug 1309641 in Ubuntu Studio "Wine fonts critical bug!" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1309641
<zequence> I'll catch up on those things after easter. I'm considering trying to get a interim release, before the first point release, if we can get the worst bugs fixed
<zequence> We could put the downloads links to point to a daily we've tested and confirmed, for instance
<OvenWerk1> zequence: Also to add to your list... and this is perhaps picky ;)  the bluetooth systray icon should maybe _not_ show on a system without any BT HW.
<OvenWerk1> I am looking through MB and CPU specs in prep to order a new one, but am thinking I should keep this 32 bit system around for testing... if I can.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2014-04-19
<zequence> OvenWerk1: Ah, I didn't realize it always shows. Yeah, we should look at hiding that
<OvenWerk1> From another bug report the BT icon is at least supposed to "dim" or "grey" when turned off.
<OvenWerk1> df
<OvenWerk1> oops...
<zequence> OvenWerk1: Ok, so the fault is not entirely ours then?
<zequence> (or, mine - I added that stuff pretty late, out of worry that we wouldn't have bluethooths support)
<zequence> This release is not really well off right now. Let's hope we can make 14.04.1 a better one
<OvenWerk1> zequence: So far it is not bad. I do have a wish list :)
<OvenWerk1> It would be nice to have two half backgrounds for use with dual monitors for example.
<OvenWerk1> But a lot of stuff is out of our hands too. We are still dealing with the fall out of the gtk 2 -> 3 thing.
<OvenWerk1> This looks to be a long term thing and there is also an underlying move to qt in some places as well.
<OvenWerk1> though for us that will make less of a difference. Ardour is gtk,,, gimp etc. We have the qt (and kde) libs anyway.
<zequence> I don't think we should be worrying too much about the graphical libs used. Just to make sure anything works
<zequence> i tend to use Gnome myself, but I don't really want to push one or the other on our users. What we should focus on is multimedia content production
<OvenWerk1> Ya, what I am saying is that we can't do much about the desktop itself, but just make sure the apps work. 
<zequence> Yep
<OvenWerk1> I haven't tried them all, but so far I have had a good experience.
<zequence> What I would mostly want to focus on is making us as DE agnostic as possible. 
<OvenWerk1> +1
<zequence> We should start a discussion soon about the next cycle, and perhaps also the next two years
<zequence> I feel we have not been able to deliver a lot to this release, which was my personal hope, which is why I'm devoted to make sure 16.04 becomes a great release instead
<OvenWerk1> In the next two years it looks like ubuntu (and Dedian) are going through the switch to systemd. This makes me wonder what is going to happen with MIR or wayland.
<zequence> that is an interesting turn :)
<OvenWerk1> I hope these things don't directly affect us too much, but it will make worth while to keep 14.04 up to date
<zequence> Yes, and it would be good for us to learn how to maintain a release, and also refresh it with updates
<zequence> Not just security wise, or fixing bugas
<zequence> bugs*
<zequence> I'm going to return to an old movie classic for a while. After easter, I really want us to start talking about the future, and what we should do. No, also, since we have an olde developer ( stochastic  ) back with us
<zequence> replace no with now :)
<OvenWerk1> Ya, he sounds like he has more assets with code than most of us (certainly me anyway)
<OvenWerk1> Interesting, It seems pulse works best through jack with 2048 frames.
<OvenWerk1> The desktop apps seem to expect the extra latency
<OvenWerk1> In videos (where it matters) it seems to be about the best match timing wise.
<OvenWerk1> Probably for piping skype into a live situation 512 is about right though. 128 is probably about minimum.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2014-04-20
<chrispage1980> I can't report bug ubuntu-bug thunar  (process:8083): GLib-CRITICAL **: g_slice_set_config: assertion 'sys_page_size == 0' failed
#ubuntustudio-devel 2015-04-13
<cub> Hello folks, long time no see!
<DalekSec> Heh, yes it has been.  Howdy.
<cub> However, after this coming weekend I hope to leave some other responsibilities behind and be able to come back to some ubuntu studio stuff
<cub> Just managed to find a bit of time to set up my computer in the new home office again. And to set up my dual monitor with dwm. Good times.
<cub> See ya a bit more frequently soon! G'night
#ubuntustudio-devel 2015-04-15
<zequence> pulseaudio-module-jack was not installed in our live ISO
<zequence> I'll have a look tonight and try get changes in before tomorrow
<zequence> Seems like the live ISO might be missing a few packages actually
<zequence> Happened a month ago, I hadn't noticed
<zequence> langasek has made a change to the update script
<zequence> The update script for ubuntustudio-meta, that is
<zequence> I've forgotten to add ubuntustudio-audio-core as a real package, so much of our core packages were never installed
<zequence> I really need to get a good alert going on the "changed" mail list. Or, people need to let us know when they changed something that actually changes things for us
<zequence> bug 1444535
<ubottu> bug 1444535 in Ubuntu Studio "ubuntustudio-audio-core package missing in meta source" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1444535
<micahg> when the seeds change, a meta upload is usually required as well (exceptions are generally things that are image only and not reflected in the archive)
<zequence> micahg: Seems like our update.cfg hadn't been updated and we were basing on old seeds
<zequence> langasek changed that, but in the process we lost a few packages that I had put in a new seed, which I had not made a package of yet
<zequence> So, my mistake ultimately
<micahg> ah, ok
#ubuntustudio-devel 2015-04-16
<astraljava> zequence, all: Good work on keeping the gears rolling! Due to recent changes in personal life, I'm looking into getting more active in FLOSS, so might actually take part in the upcoming devel cycle again, if help is needed of course.
<zequence> astraljava: You are most welcome for sure :)
<astraljava> Cheers! :)
<DalekSec> zequence: Nice, cub and astraljava, mica hg is back too!
<astraljava> Sweet, let's get cracking, then. :)
<zequence> I always forget there's no particular RC that is released
<zequence> Damn, I made a simple mistake in the meta
<zequence> The packages are there, but ubuntustudio-audio is not depending on ubuntustudio-audio-core
<zequence> I need to do another upload
<zequence> DalekSec: Sorry for being really slow, but you are usually helping out with Xubuntu, right? Are you also interested in being more involed in Ubuntu Studio development?
<zequence> astraljava: OvenWerks: holstein: and anyone else who is interested. There seems to have been some confusion on how long we were to maintain Precise. Since Xubuntu is going EOL now, I'm thinking we might as well too
<zequence> And, if we do that, I'm probably not going to keep maintaining linux-lowlatency for Precise either
<zequence> I suspect very few will be needing those updates
<DalekSec> zequence: Right, and sure depends on where you need it.  I've still got it slated to update dvdstyler once wombot opens (seems the vivid one isn't really functional.)  I just don't usually do much Studio stuff, just some audacity stuff here, and streaming there.
<holstein> zequence: agreed.. let 12.04 go with upstream
<holstein> xfce and xubuntu both are on that cylce AFAIK
<holstein> if someone wants, they can switch their 12.04 to another DE and generic kernel and still use it with the support of the main ubuntu community
<OvenWerks> zequence: The audio SW community is moving quite fast, at least in some areas, Ardour 4 is on it's way out the door already for example.
<zequence> DalekSec: If there is anything that you would like to work, you might actually be the only one, so it's not like someones going to stop you :). 
<zequence> OvenWerks: Ah, yeah
<OvenWerks> guitarix has lots of new stuff, qstuff has moved a lot too
<zequence> One thing about studio machines though is that you don't want to change the system too often. Old mixes might not work anymore with an updated system
<zequence> But, 2 years aught to be enought time to get work done before upgrading :)
<OvenWerks> I know, but they don't need to be "connected" either so security should be less of an issue.
<zequence> Yeah
<OvenWerks> A4 should generate file that A3 can still use and vs
<OvenWerks> *files
<zequence> Cool
<OvenWerks> I have been testing the betas
<zequence> Ok, seems like the meta might have been uploaded. I'll ask for the ISOs to be rebuilt later
<zequence> Ok, requested rebuild, so hopefully that's it. We get a functional ISO this cycle too
<astraljava> zequence: Previously we were to follow Xubuntu's decisions pretty closely. There may have been an exception, or two, but since most of the packages are in line with them, it would create a massive extra workload in order to keep supporting by ourselves. So I'm good if you are.
<OvenWerks> astraljava: There are very few things different from xubuntu DE wise. We still use the main menu instead of wisker is the biggest difference (besides artwork)
<OvenWerks> The difference more than anything is we have not really kept up as we should have.
<OvenWerks> astraljava: wisker is limited in menu depth. we use sub-sub menus because we have so many applications of the same type it helps organize things a lot.
<elfy> while I don't often sayt things, would be good to see people check at least the installer
#ubuntustudio-devel 2015-04-17
<OvenWerks> https://github.com/Ardour/ardour/releases/tag/4.0
<OvenWerks> Wonder how long before it makes it to our repos...
<zequence> I'm getting both ISOs now for testing now
<astraljava> I'll be doing that late this evening.
<zequence> OvenWerks: The meta installer won't include our latest meta package, but that's fine I guess, since it'll come with -audio
<zequence> OvenWerks: The installer has it automatically though, as it looks for packages in a different way
<zequence> The ubiquity plugin, I mean, has it
<zequence> I guess ardour4 should appear in the debian git repo sometime not too far from the future, but since they are only just releasing jessie, there is probably no hurry
<zequence> We should get it with our next release anyhow, and hopefully it'll be mature by the time for our next LTS :)
<astraljava> zequence: Next LTS is... 16.04?
<zequence> astraljava: YEp
<astraljava> Super, so I'll have one practise release before that, then. :D
<zequence> We could even consider 15.10 a beta for the LTS if we like
<astraljava> That might be wise.
<elfy> weren't 14.10,15.04,15.10 the alpha's and beta's for everyone :D
<astraljava> I guess technically that is true, too. :D
<zequence> Pretty much, but since we do so little changes we haven't even got to our Alpha yet
<elfy> heh
<astraljava> So we're practically just doing subsequent point releases for... 14.04? :p
<zequence> I suppose the "interim" releases are a sort of a rolling release thing
<zequence> You can upgrade to them, if you choose to
<zequence> You more or less need to, even
<zequence> Debian is releasing about every two years, and they have testing. Wouldn't be too much of a change for us if we went the same way
<zequence> Less release practice though :)
<zequence> I'm satisfied with the ISOs. There's the restart bug, and I didn't much test more than installation and jack
<zequence> I'm probably going to get the bq phone with Ubuntu within the month. Would be interesting to see how some audio applications might work on it.
<zequence> Also, how responsive is the kernel for RT audio
<zequence> We should really look at making some videos for our next LTS
<zequence> cub ^
<zequence> At least some basic ones for audio
#ubuntustudio-devel 2015-04-19
<astraljava> zequence: Pardon me, but this laptop of mine isn't capable of doing test runs of ISO images. I tried with Xubuntu, and it took 3+ hours, and failed to reboot afterwards. I'm going to have to make other arrangements for testing. But I can do some development with this.
<zequence> astraljava: Well, I've already made sure the ISOs boot and are functional. Would be nice to get a second opinion, but should be ok.
<zequence> Seems like the Xubuntu folks have done a lot of testing
<zequence> Ours is not exactly like theirs, so we could have some problems that I'm not aware of
<zequence> I've pretty much skipped all normal desktop stuff, aside form the most basic stuff.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-04-18
<cub> Tried to install the latest build in virtualbox today and get a bug (maybe?) but the choice I made is not in test case. I suppose I file a bug, but do I set the test as failed? flocculant zequence sakrecoer 
<cub> And what is the best way to find out if a similar bug has already been reported?
<zequence> cub: What choice is that? Also, best way is just to report a bug and see during the process if it was already reported.
<flocculant> zequence: perhaps the ubiquity issue
<zequence> flocculant: Would be reasonable
<zequence> Rosco2: Going to set the ISOs to rebuild, now that we have our ubiquity stuff in
<Rosco2> Right-oh. Thanks. I was going to zsync and do my first test
<Rosco2> Now I will hold off :-)
<Rosco2> Got to get that in!
<cub> to continue earlier drop-by discussion. I have been having trouble with installations when checking the box to Install third-party drivers. Then it just hangs. But once in every 5 attempts it moves on. If I don't check it, it loads the next stage in the installation at once. But as I can't find any bug around it I'm not sure it is due to faulty Virtualbox on Windows 7 or a "real" bug.
<zequence> cub: File the bug just in case
<cub> Should I connect it to ubiquity?
<zequence> cub: Yes
<zequence> cub: You mean third party codecs, and stuff
<cub> yes
<zequence> Right, drivers would be different
<cub> I think the box says "Install third-party driver for graphics, audio " and some more
<zequence> Don't think there's anything specific to VB in that scenario. It's just some python script that either enables to install something from the ISO, or downloads it first
<zequence> Oh, well, if it checks third party drivers for the graphics, it will check the hardware, which in this case is Virtualbox
<cub> yeah I could see a python script in ps ax, but nothing happened. Except when I was going to do the ubuntu-bug thing, then it just worked...or course.
<cub> aha, ok that could be a problem perhaps
<zequence> I never realized it said third party drivers. Is it a recent addition?
<cub> I don't think so. It's the same in Xubuntu installation of 14.04
<zequence> Then I've just missed it :)
<zequence> cub: ubiquity stuff is updated now. Rebuild in progress
<cub> nice, I also got the previous bug with choosing "Install" right away and then boot into live session anyway
<OvenWerks> iso build failed.
<krytarik> OvenWerks: That was fixed, so next rebuild should work again - http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntu-seeds/ubuntustudio.xenial/revision/1486
<krytarik> (There is a global respin looming anyway.)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-04-19
<OvenWerks> krytarik: I would think so, but it is not daily right now, so the question becomes when :)
<krytarik> OvenWerks: I guess if it didn't happen by morning UTC, we should have another run at it ourselves. :P
<flocculant> something awry with your build - log says it built 9/10 hours ago - tracker says it's rebuilding
<flocculant> as far as rebuilds go - if there's no-one about from your team to trigger it - I'm pretty sure I have perm to do so
<zequence> Our ship seed may have caused it. Both cjwatson and infinity were poiking in our seeds yesterday
<cfhowlett> that sounds ... shady ...
<zequence> cfhowlett: They were fixing our ISO build problem
<zequence> infinty is the Ubuntu release manager and cjwatson is one of the original authors of a lot of stuff in the infrastructure
<zequence> ..or at least maintainer, if not author. Think he did ubiquity.
<zequence> Anyway, we are in safe hands :)
<zequence> flocculant: How do you trigger it, if not from the qa page?
<cub> Anyone know if the iso will be built today?
<zequence> cub: Hopefully it will build :)
<zequence> cub: I'm poking people about it now. We can usually do rebuilds ourselves, but the qa site has hung after yesterdays failure
<cub> Looking at the time stamps on previous builds it seems it won't be until late afternoon/evening Swedish time
<cub> Aha or we can trigger a build at other times?
<zequence> Yes, members of ubuntustudio-release have access to those controls at iso.qa.ubuntu.com
<cub> I was hoping to run an installation in the background while doing mindnumbing excel spreadsheet work
<zequence> Wonder what actually caused the build failure though. Not because of any change we did. But, apparently our seeds included some old stuff that is not used anymore
<zequence> I still have much to learn in that area myself
<autumna> zequence: about the website code, do we have a coding style we are following or just writing for now? 
<zequence> autumna: Nope. I'm a beginner css and php hacker myself, and just try to follow the common standards
<zequence> actually, need to remove some stuff that I realized we don't need anymore from functions.php
<autumna> awesome ok. 
<zequence> sakrecoer: autumna: The feature definition page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/FeatureDefinitions/WebsiteXenial
<zequence> Make additions or suggest changes
<sakrecoer> nice zequence! Tahnks! also, great to have you in the webteam autumna :)
<autumna> nice to be here sakrecoer :) I'll poke at the css a bit later. (if I can figure out git in time) 
<sakrecoer> :) autumna: to jsut clone it all you need to do is: clone git+ssh://git.launchpad.net/ubuntustudio-website
<sakrecoer> (i'm no way an epxert, but zequence pasted that command in OT
<autumna> I know. will probably also need a xampp or something similar to view the pages through
<zequence> autumna: I can give you your own WP installation if you want. I have loads of space. Just one click away
<autumna> I might ask for it if I end up doing something more serious than poking at color scheme
<zequence> alright
<autumna> but I should really be good and learn to how to work with a proper workflow, instead of my usual habit of SSHing and changing things on spot
<zequence> yeah, shouldn't we all learn that
<zequence> The blueprints page https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntustudio/+spec/website-topic-x
<sakrecoer> zequence: "We are planning to update the website look and content for the release of 16.04." ehm... that would be this thursday right?
<zequence> sakrecoer: Well, let's not be too pedantic about dates, shall we?
<sakrecoer> hehe ok :)
<zequence> I should have said around the release of 16.04
 * sakrecoer puts an icecube under my shirt.
<zequence> The blueprints are very simple. You can add tasks there, if they correspond with the feature definition
<autumna> UNLESS you want to compare 2 designs side by side, in which case, give me my own stage away and I'll be happily lazy *snort*
<zequence> Also, if you want to take on a task, just change [ubuntustudio-website] into your own LP nick, and TODO into INPROGRESS
<zequence> autumna: sure
<zequence> sakrecoer: So, this is the basics of how we should have done all the work this cycle - feature definitions -> blueprints -> code
<sakrecoer> :)
<zequence> Feature definitions can be worked on for a good while during the initial part of the cycle, and that is translated into a blueprint.
<zequence> Finally, the person responsible checks the blueprint for sanity, and marks it ready and approved
<zequence> Then, everyone just follows the blueprint
<zequence> Whenever you need changes to the blueprints - if it conflicts or changes something, it needs to be discussed first, and again, the person responsible needs to approve
<zequence> This way we all know which way we are heading and people can work independently during the cycle
<zequence> The person who approves can be either a team lead, or the project lead
<zequence> Feature Definition Freeze means planning stops, and blueprints are cemented
<zequence> But, we only follow that, if we want to. If we really want to be serious, we add the blueprints to the Ubuntu project, not to the UBuntu Studio one
<zequence> We're such a small team usually, that the organization of blueprints usually is just work for nothing, as only one or two people are using them
<zequence> Let's hope things are different the following two years
<sakrecoer> hmm... got a mail that i'm subsrcribed to the blueprint, but LP says i'm not... needs time to cron?
<sakrecoer> also i fail to understand how the dependency diagram is established
<zequence> sakrecoer: If you're in the core team, you are subscribed to all sub teams
<sakrecoer> ok :)
<zequence> sakrecoer: If you check the bottom of the page, you see the link "add dependencu"
<sakrecoer> "established" is the wrong word...
<zequence> If you add a dependency to a blueprint, the dependency appears above that blueprint
<zequence> And, you can add as many as you want. I've just simply put all blueprints as dependencies to the main topic blueprint
<zequence> Actually, this blueprint is supposed to just be a topic, originally, so I should renambe it
<sakrecoer> ok, i'm starting to get it... i think :)
<zequence> But, doesn't matter. It's the last blueprint for X. You can create your own thing for next release
<zequence> Rosco2: Hi. We seem to have problems getting a new build
<Rosco2> Just switched on to see if the build failure was still there
<zequence> Rosco2: Can't even get a comment in the release channel as to why, but I'm not hounding people
<zequence> seeds were changed, but I'm unsure if that is a fix
<Rosco2> Yeah - I saw the changes
<Rosco2> Wasn't sure it it was a fix - or the failure
<Rosco2> It was only after those changes that the build failed
<zequence> Really?
<zequence> Ah, maybe only the first change did that
<zequence> ..and the second one fixed it probably
<Rosco2> I am not sure about the order of things
<Rosco2> I was quickly scanning the emails this morning before I went off to work
<Rosco2> Have we tried a rebuild recently?
<zequence> Rosco2: both me and flocculant have asked about it on -release
<zequence> Rosco2: You can give it a try, if you want :)
<Rosco2> Just logging into the tracker now
<zequence> Rosco2: I've tried to rebuild from there a couple of times, but it seems to have stuck
<Rosco2> OK - I can see it still says rebuilding
<zequence> Yep
<Rosco2> I am not expecting that if I click on the same thing that I will have a different result :-)
<zequence> I already tried canceling the build request as well. Nothing
<Rosco2> Hmmm. 5:58 PM yesterday seeds changed by infinity. Build failed email 9:55 PM. Colin changed seeds 12:24 AM today
<Rosco2> just saw stgrabers response on the release channel
<zequence> Rosco2: Yep. hopefully infinity will work it out
<Rosco2> Build seemed to crash after trying to fetch our seeds branch
<Rosco2> Just did a bzr pull and it worked here
<Rosco2> And I have one more revision than the log of the build failure
<zequence> Rosco2: There are always a couple of seed pulls that don't work
<zequence> Rosco2: But, I'm sure dropping our ship seed, when still keeping it in STRUCTURE was a bad idea
<Rosco2> zequence: yeah - but the log didn't seem to get that far
<Rosco2> It seemed to crash and stop
<Rosco2> Anyway, I can still do some dist-upgrade tests while I wait
<sakrecoer> bug #1572249
<ubottu> bug 1572249 in ubuntustudio-look (Ubuntu) "Errors in /usr/share/gnome-background-properties/ubuntustudio-wallpapers.xml : missing attributions erroneous file-path" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1572249
<zequence> Judging from the communication in -release, I would say there will respins in a couple of hours
<OvenWerks> waiting :)
<Rosco2> My upgrade from Trusty to Xenial still fails
<zequence> Rosco2: I've never trusted those anyway
<zequence> Rosco2: But, what is causing it?
<zequence> If it's a change in one of our packages, we should probably take a look at that
<Rosco2> bug #1572262
<ubottu> bug 1561420 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu) "duplicate for #1572262 Upgrade from Trusty to Xenial failed (Ubuntu Studio)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1561420
<Rosco2> apt log shows lots of broken packages, but I haven't studied it yet
<zequence> That's a lot of packages. I'm happy to stay out of that one.
<zequence> Doesn't seem very Ubuntu Studio specific either
<OvenWerks> Rosco2: system service stuff? session startup? upstart to systemd maybe?
<Rosco2> I nearly marked another bug report as duplicate
<Rosco2> He wasn't on Studio
<Rosco2> OvenWerks: I can see many old tricky transitions in there that affected most of the archive
<Rosco2> Gnome guys report that machine doesn't start after the upgrade
<Rosco2> O don't get that far :-)
<OvenWerks> Rosco2: The other problem for me is that my 14.04 is not in any way stock. I do development work on it too. so any upgrade script that handles only the applications/utilities on the ISO is likely to fail.
<Rosco2> I am glad now that I followed every release since then
<OvenWerks> I normally reinstall and link in the folders on my old home. I end up reinstalling all the dev files etc.
<OvenWerks> upgrade is much more important with my server though.
<OvenWerks> (server is both upgrading and going from 32->64 bit :P
<Rosco2> Losing my home directory on the Music Studio may not be a bad idea
<Rosco2> There is some horrible music created on there
<Rosco2> :-)
<autumna> zequence: http://autumna.zequence.net/ you probably already know this, but you can do quite a bit with css. 
<knome> autumna, instead of changing some of the basic structures of the theme, why don't you focus on how you would make a feature tour work with the theme?
<autumna> oh, I think sakrecoer is working on the feature tour? 
<knome> i don't know
<knome> from the original theme author POV, these kind of changes are not really what i'm expecting
<autumna> the too much fun with css aside, the original background of the header chosen was making the text a bit hard to read, so I was trying to find a way to fix that without using another color. at least that is where I sidetracked ;D
<knome> you can change the color from the theme options
<knome> you don't need to apply any CSS yourself
<sakrecoer> yes, i am, but you are wellcome to help me autumna :) i'm commuting home right now, but i'll push it to some good place. maybe that way i can focus on the text and pictures. of course i will probably need feedback on that too..
<autumna> yeah but I couldn't find a way to make it transparent, which was what I was trying to do (originally)
<knome> why would you need to make it transparent?
<autumna> sakrecoer just let me know which plugin you are using if you are using one, but yeah seeing the content would make it easier
<autumna> to change the color without changing the color? 
<knome> there is nothing in the background that would make the color change anyway
<sakrecoer> autumna: http://sakrecoer.com/ubuntustudio/tour/
<sakrecoer> no plugin, plain html...
<autumna> there is the gray color. 
<autumna> and yes, if we did a flat color, I would eventually just get the midway color and use that, rather than using transparency
<autumna> sakrecoer: i can take this and see if I can take this and stuff it into a plugin
<autumna> if you want
<sakrecoer> that sounds AWESOME autumna!!!
<knome> instead of creating a plugin, why don't you create a page template in the child theme that allows the content area to span the whole window width?
<autumna> knome: I was actually just thinking something along the same lines
<knome> and on the same breath, that's why i'm here to begin with
<knome> i have been asking how you want to do things X, Y, Z but haven't heard anything back
<knome> so ideally the page template could even be somehow integrated in the main theme
<knome> to make sure everything is done right...
<autumna> I was poking into a child template actually that zequence created for us. 
<knome> i know
<knome> i've talked with him about it
<autumna> but if you want it in the main template.. if this is to be a permanent part of the main template... maybe it might be better to have multiple items
<autumna> for each "Page" of the feature tour
<knome> that's related to content, not code
<autumna> how so?
<knome> how is it related to code whether you present something in one or five pages?
<knome> or if you have one or five menu items for it?
<sakrecoer> knome: the layout of the feature tour is different from the blog roll
<autumna> no what I meant wasn't having separate pages. 
<autumna> I meant the output would look a single page
<knome> sakrecoer, ack
<knome> sakrecoer, i'm getting that since day one..
<autumna> but when updating you would see different items
<knome> updating?
<autumna> ok so basically, the way sakrecoer made the feature tour is 1 page, with different categories. intro, audio, video, graphics
<autumna> each of these groupings have their own background image, title (I assume eventually) and content.
<autumna> so in some ways these are all independent "pages". so the template should allow multiple items of this type, but when viewing, view them one under another. 
<zequence> knome: We're looking at doing exactly that - custom templates, but I haven't done that yet. Need to see how we can have custom css for those pages
<zequence> Like full width for certain elements
<autumna> its more modular, so the person doing the content entry doesn't have to play with the divs, and positioning background images, etc, -
<autumna> hi zequence :)
<zequence> autumna: Hi
<knome> zequence, the easiest way is to make sure the new page template has a specific body id/class, then in the css just do body#id/.class element { ... }
<zequence> knome: Right
<knome> you want to keep the structure of the html as intact as possible so you can benfit all the things the theme is doing for you
<zequence> I'm thinking inheritng most of the css for the new body#id, and just change the details that matter
<zequence> Since I do this kind of work so seldom, I have a very poor experience in what strategy is the best
<zequence> I mean, poor experience, not a poor experience
<zequence> It's also a matter of which way is the simplest for us - do we do the whole page in code, or do we make a custom page which we fill with content from WP
<zequence> It's a lot simpler to edit using WP, as otherwise we need to have Canonical admins upload our changes
<zequence> Meaning, it's easier to do the content from WP, which we have access to. We don't have direct access to the WP installation itself. NO ftp access, in other words
<autumna> zequence: re ease, do you plan to update content in this layout when 16.10 comes? or do we expect the website will change again?
<zequence> autumna: I would expect the website to stay pretty much the same at least until next LTS
<zequence> One of the main reasons to change this time, is to have the page being mobile friendly, but we might as well improve what else we can while doing it
<autumna> *nods* yeah to me it seems there can be some use to making a template page, I mean what sakrecoer created here looks pretty modern and can be reused even by other groups if we created something that makes it possible.
<autumna> the con is that I am not sure how difficult or easy it would be to create a template like that, I mean it is possible it isn't super complicated just.. I never did PHP development in WP.
<autumna> also there IS a third option
<autumna> that we just plug everything in now, to get things ready for thursday
<autumna> then calmly make it into a custom page template later. ;D
<zequence> autumna: Oh, but thursday is not the goal. We don't have time to meet that however we do it
<autumna> but if as soon as possible after thursday is the goal
<zequence> Sure. I mean, it shouldn't have to take longer than needed, so we can spend time on other things too.
<sakrecoer> i like the 3rd idea... :) but it would imply a blogpost for feature tour..
<zequence> If it happens to be next week or two months from now, I think is irrelevant
<autumna> sakrecoer we probably at least will need to create a custom div style and make it 100% to put the whole thing in there
<zequence> sakrecoer: Not a blog post. A page. Its' different
<autumna> I think.. or as knome recommended, to have a different body type
<sakrecoer> the good thing about updating tge layout of website later is that we have a good reason to poke everyone on social media
<autumna> so either way that is happening
<zequence> There are some limitations as to what you can do in html from inside WP
<autumna> *nods*. I think we can pull it off with the current layout
<autumna> actually.. wait how do we create a custom page type?
<sakrecoer> ok, i thougt the onky diff between blogpost and page is that blogposts show up in the blogroll...
<autumna> actually
<autumna> I wonder if we can do it without it being a custom page, but just a page
<zequence> sakrecoer: The editing between a page or post is no different, but how they are organized is
 * autumna goes to try
<zequence> autumna: We can't, if we want images to have full width, while text has adaptive width
<zequence> There's no way to link the html from the page to a custom css. That's why we need a custom page
<autumna> I see
<zequence> There are plugins that allow you to create custom pages, and I suppose they create custom html elements, but I wouldn't want to mess too much with that
<zequence> Let's sort out the elements we want, and see how we can best implement them
<knome> again, you only need a custom page template
<zequence> knome: How do we do custom backgrounds for different divs in the content?
<zequence> ..with a custom page template
<knome> you'll still need to control that separately
<knome> the template would allow you to have full-width content
<zequence> But, let's focus on what we want to customize first, ok?
<knome> one option is to load the different "modules" as autumna described above, but i think that's a bit hacky
<knome> and my guess is that ultimately, you end up wanting to change more than you can with that kind of template and thus requiring code updates via IS
<knome> i imagine you ideally want to change the feature tour in a major way only every 2 years with a new LTS
<knome> it's not so bad to have to ask IS for updates once in two years
<zequence> Yeah, if we only update certain pages that often, it would be no problem
<zequence> Even once every 6 months is ok
<knome> indeed
<knome> in reality, i request for updates from IS to the xubuntu website maybe once a month or two
<knome> they are even really responsive as we track the code in bzr and keep the changes in relatively small batches
<knome> and they don't really need to do code review for CSS
<knome> but if you had a PHP template you needed to update... yeah, it would likely take longer
<zequence> autumna: sakrecoer: The bottom of the feature page has bullets for things we want to customize. Please add new bullets if you think of any https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/FeatureDefinitions/WebsiteXenial#Things_we_want_to_be_able_to_do_in_our_custom_pages:
<autumna> it does look like we need to be able to either layer divs on top of each other, or have a custom div type that we can put background in yes, but also style, margins etc.. again I might be stating the obvious. 
<autumna> (is anybody else getting 500s trying to login?) 
<zequence> autumna: Yes, that would be the technical solution side of it. I don't have a clear idea myself how to best do it, but some sort of custom divs will be needed
<zequence> If using the WP page editor, the question is how we can do stuff like full width images from there. And, my first thought is adding a class to a html tag in the html editor
<knome> i'm worrying that you are overthinking it and that it'll end up being really wonky anyway
<zequence> knome: If we do that, maybe you can help straighten us out once we know more exactly how we want to do things :)
<knome> let's see
<knome> i want to help, but if it's something completely custom, then i don't know if it's sensible for me to put a lot of work into it
<zequence> No, and I wouldn't want to do that either myself
<autumna> ok question. 
<autumna> will the backgrounds change?
<zequence> autumna: Which backgrounds?
<autumna> the backgrounds of the feature tour. unless we plan to use this custom page style for something else as well?
<zequence> the feature tour sakrecoer is more of a mockup, where he used existing art
<zequence> But, I say we keep what works
<autumna> I know but the point is, there is 4 categories. intro, audio software, video software and graphic software
<autumna> are we likely to add or remove categories from the page?
<zequence> Nope
<autumna> then what we basically need is 4 content areas
<zequence> autumna: I was able to login to the wiki just now. Took a little while though
<autumna> *tries again*
<autumna> if we can have 4 content areas to edit ( a normal page just has one) then we are fine. it is also hacky but.. at least it doesn't go into plugin territory like the individual pages idea. the other option I can really think is the individual modules thing which is more like a modified blog really which is.. complicated
<sakrecoer> i think i'd better step back from here, not much i can do to help with wordspress except feeding back on results.. but if i had to do it myself, i'd host the feature tour in html in a subdomain pointing to some github pages,veffectively allowing us any shape or form without having to bother RT..
<sakrecoer> i'l focus on the content instead :) texts and those icons
<zequence> sakrecoer: We might customization on other pages as well, and be able to change them at any time
<zequence> We can't have the whole site as subdomains
<zequence> Particularly if we decide to have the feature tour as the front page
<autumna> let me see if there is a plugin we can use, that will have the same result
<sakrecoer> makes sense... what would canonical think of us having the hole site on github?
<zequence> There's still the option of having totally custom pages, not editable from WP, but without subdomains
<zequence> Just need a little bit of php to work that out
<zequence> But, nothing major
 * zequence not knowing exactly how, but will find out
<sakrecoer> ok :)
<autumna> or we could go into a different direction..
<autumna> https://wordpress.org/plugins/featured-pages-customizer/ and use something like this
<autumna> *brainstorms*
<sakrecoer> shoot just shoot autumna 
<sakrecoer> :)
<zequence> autumna: You can always install them on your staging site and try to reproduce something similar to what sakrecoer did
<autumna> *nods*
<autumna> I might do that
<zequence> Just as proof of concept
<autumna> ok I think I found something 
<autumna> http://getonepager.com/ trying this now will report findings ;D
<zequence> Seems respins are imminent, though will take some time to complete
<zequence> So, tomorrow is ISO testing day
<autumna> yay
<Rosco2> cross fingers - here it comes
<Rosco2> respins started
<sakrecoer> \o/
<autumna> zequence: sakrecoer ok this is not remotely done but: http://autumna.zequence.net/feature-tour just to give an idea of what we can do with a plugin. The default options are a bit limiting but it seems enough to get things done? 
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-04-20
<OvenWerks> downloading iso.
<zequence> autumna: Not bad. Though, it would be nice to be able to include the main menu bar in that.
<zequence> Couldn't keep away. Had to try the ISO
<autumna> hahah
<autumna> I am still awake
<autumna> and I actually found another addon that while doesn't do wider pages, is a lot better
<autumna> (and less hacky)
<autumna> http://autumna.zequence.net/?page_id=16&forge_builder
<autumna> err
<autumna> that is the wrong link
<autumna> http://autumna.zequence.net/?page_id=16
<zequence> autumna: Did you publish the page yet?
<autumna> I thought I did
<autumna> I am going to disable the other plugin and try again, I think they might be breaking each other
<autumna> try again
<autumna> the previous plugin was breaking this one
<autumna> oh god ok 
<autumna> I think there is a cautionary tale somewhere here about not doing things when one should be sleeping: http://autumna.zequence.net/feature-tour-2/
<autumna> 3rd time is the charm (I hope)
<zequence> autumna: Ok, but this one is only customized within the content area
<autumna> yeah.... but.. it allows you to put css classes into things. (well theorically it also allows you to put page wide css, but that is not working)
<zequence> I think it would be great if we could keep the panel, but everything below was customizable. That for me would be the ultimate solution
<zequence> ok
<autumna> one thing we CAN do is that
<autumna> we can have a customized template and this (if all else fails)
<autumna> I doubt that will work through actually
<autumna> *facepalm*
<zequence> There are more choices now, so that's good
<autumna> zequence: I think, from their documentation, that if we create a simple theme with 100% width of page content, we can use it, to modify the second plugin
<autumna> http://cpothemes.com/docs/customize-page-templates
<autumna> theme -> template
<cub> Do we get to name the isos ourselves? As I often download several different distros during testing and ubuntu studio is called "xenial-dvd-amd64.iso" it doesn't stand out as "ubuntu-studio"
<cub> Hmm the others are not better either. Most is called xenial-desktop without really specifying which flavour it is
<krytarik> cub: Yup, that's the fun part of dealing with the dailies. :P
<cub> hehe
<cub> but aren't they named by a script?
<cub> not that it is a major issue but if the solution is easy
<cub> at least we can differentiate Ubuntu Studio as it seems to be the only one named -dvd- compared to -desktop- or -server- :P
<krytarik> Only current one anyway, yes - Edubuntu was too.
<krytarik> And I'd not think "easy" would cut it at that.
<flocculant> cub: can't say that's ever caused me an issue - I end up with dailies from most flavours at some point - I use something called folders to keep them seperate :D
<flocculant> zequence: thanks for the thanks :)
<cub> Worked like charm to choose "Install Ubuntu Studio" directly now. 
<sakrecoer> autumna: nice :) i think i prefere knome's head menu coloring, more accurate on a "corporateID" level. i look forwad to see it with full width, the frameing is what i am hopeing to escape really. not only because of taste, but also conceptualy: we are shipping tools for creatives, we should not frame creativity :)
<sakrecoer> the paragraph text-size and line-height is perfect! easy on the eye and good size
<sakrecoer> the woodmark, probably we should have a picture. the letter-spacing is off and i think that spacing may differ from browser to browser
<sakrecoer> This said, to have to menu on that page is probably an excellent thing.
<sakrecoer> oh, and the frameing thing, i'm just talking about the feature tour. the rest of pages should defenitly be framed. we want the about and the news to be reassuring
<sakrecoer> good news with the iso
<autumna> sakrecoer: that was me getting a bit sidetracked :) I'll try something more subtle later
<knome> autumna, i still don't understand why you need to change the theme, even subtly
<autumna> knome sakrecoer and zequence said that they want to keep the exact same shade of blue, but blue on white is a bit hard to read. I am looking to see if there is a way to use that color but have more contrast behind text. 
<autumna> and morning
<autumna> ok actually let me switch the header back for now so that we can see what we are dealing with as overall feature tour layout
<knome> if you apply a shade, it's not the same blue anyway either, right?
<knome> if you wanted to improve legibility, i would rather try some text-shadow
<autumna> knome: I find it easier to change transparency to find that color, rather than copy the colors to gimp, change opacity there, get the combined color and copy it there each time. if we did a flat color I never intended to keep transparency on. :)
<autumna> but text shadow is a great idea
<autumna> let me try that
<autumna> http://autumna.zequence.net/
<autumna> ok text-shadow it is unless anyone has an objection
<sakrecoer> autumna: shadow looks great!
<autumna> :)
<sakrecoer> autumna: in an early stage i prefere side tracking going too far.
<autumna> thanks to knome for the idea. there :) 
<sakrecoer> its easier to come back to a given point
<sakrecoer> than to speculate about how it could have been with an extra mile
<autumna> sakrecoer: exactly, that is also why I like having my own stage. we can compare and see where we begun more easily
<autumna> I am going to try to create a wide template. try being an operative word here.. I THINK I know how to create a custom page. I THINK
<sakrecoer> 'keeping it simple' might be usefull complementary sentence to that :) (at least i often need to remind it to myself:D)
<zequence> autumna: Huge difference with the text shadow, all though very subtle
<autumna> zequence: yes! also... 
<autumna> http://autumna.zequence.net/feature-tour-2/ WIP wide page template with the second plugin
<zequence> autumna: Alright. There is a problem graphically when mixing dark colors with the grey, so not sure what is the best approach there
<zequence> White background solves a lot of problems, but I would hate to give up the idea of a dark theme
<autumna> well, for the feature page at least
<autumna> I assume that the background will not be seen at all
<zequence> If that, then yes, that would work
<autumna> I am trying to lose the title area
<zequence> Right
<autumna> knome mentioned using "body" ID and referring everything inside that way but I am not exactly sure of the syntax for referring that way. 
<zequence> I haven't looked into that yet, but would need to be a custom page
<zequence> I might not be doing any code for a few days now, so I can't be of much help
<autumna> I have a custom page
<autumna> I am just not sure of the css syntax. *tries*
<zequence> autumna: I suppose a good way is to create a new css for that file, which inherits the other stuff, and just change some of the things
<autumna> actually...
<autumna> I just did the whole thing inside the same css. this goes into the easier than expected category
<autumna> :)
<zequence> nice
<autumna> http://autumna.zequence.net/feature-tour-2/
<autumna> I think (assuming our request for plugin gets accepted) we found our solution
<sakrecoer> autumna: \o/ 
<sakrecoer> it breaks on mobile.. but we can look into that later.
<zequence> sakrecoer: Does it?
<zequence> The image doesn't resize
<sakrecoer> yeah, 'ubuntustudio' gets out of frame..
<zequence> Yep
<sakrecoer> and the image yes..
<zequence> Need some image css in there, like what is in the community-theme
<sakrecoer> just a matter of giving it an @media for smaller windows..
<zequence> autumna: So, you did the content from WP. The images and the text?
<autumna> yes
<zequence> Cool
<sakrecoer> you rock autumna \o/
<autumna> hey I am not the person who wrote the plugin
<autumna> ;)
<autumna> just found it that's all
<zequence> To find it is almost as great a feat as coding it
<autumna> :)
<sakrecoer> no but your the person who put down the effort
<autumna> :)
<sakrecoer> i hope to have the texts and icons finished this afternoon.. 
<autumna> I need to eat some lunch, ut after that I'll try to see if I can get the same setup happening on the main stage
<autumna> that way we can all work on it
<sakrecoer> guten apetit!
<autumna> or at least you can sakrecoer. :) 
<autumna> thanks :D
<sakrecoer> i can haz what?
<autumna> you can put your feature tour content in, rather than doing 2 jobs
<sakrecoer> ok :) thought you wanted me to set that template on the main thing..
<autumna> I am going to upload the template to main stage, also to make sure nothing is breaking. because my installation is kind of broken right now
<sakrecoer> aight! until then, then :)
<cub> I prefer flat design over text-shadow...but I'm a bit late to the party.
<autumna> cub I was hoping that it wasn't obvious there was a text shadow there. its just there to improve the readability, but always open to alternative ideas. 
<sakrecoer> cub, your not late. if you have better idea on how to keep the color scheme while having contrast, please share :)
<cub> No I think it was fine before so. :)
<autumna> well I'll go with what everyone agrees with
<zequence> I feel like it was an improvement, but perhaps one can try mildening it just a notch.
<zequence> But, to me it doesn't seem probably anyone will notice it if not looking for it, as it is now
<zequence> Almost like the sensation from looking into a bright light, you get a shadow in place of where the light was
<cub> On this computer it's quite noticable, like a Windows 95 bevel button. But on my laptop it might not be visible.
<zequence> Ok
<zequence> Yeah, screens make a difference
<zequence> I should try on one of our nicer screens at home
<zequence> Does anyone here have a screen suitable for graphics work, anyway?
<cub> Not really. Great monitors at work but not ones professional designer would use
<cub> and noone (but me) does design work on a laptop screen.
<autumna> errr
<autumna> *raises hand*
<autumna> actually
<autumna> (lets just say cub that you are not the only one)
<cub> yup
<zequence> Ok. So, cub, your screen wasn't bought from TV Shop then?
<zequence> Ah, I misunderstood
<cub> Nope it was Webbhallen. :P
<cub> Something about the "preferred monitor for [insert CS player here]"
<zequence> We have a saying among my friends, that if something is not what it was promised to be, it's TV Shop
<cub> ehhe
 * autumna needs to now figure out which of these css changes are the ones that needs to be committed. 
<cub> I a bit confused about release, I thought it was tomorrow but Twitter seems to agree upon it's only "hours away"
<zequence> It should be tomorrow, yes
<zequence> I suppose you could say it's only hours away, but so is the end of the universe, if you want to count it in hours
<zequence> All releases happen on thursday
<zequence> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/XenialXerus/ReleaseSchedule
<cub> that's right
<zequence> Maybe something to do with the differing calendars of varying countries
<zequence> Just guessing
<cub> Where is it Tuhrsday first, Asia right?
<zequence> In the middle of the Pacific
<zequence> Between Asia and America, quite exactly
<zequence> http://www.worldtimezone.com/
<zequence> Already thursday in New Zeeland
<cub> There you go. So release today. ;)
<zequence> But, no you're right. The eastern tip of Asia is correct
<zequence> But, actually, it will be released in New Zeeland on friday
<zequence> Usually during afternoon, evening our time (17.00-20.00)
<zequence> UTC+1, that is
<cub> yes every other time it's when it's morning in the US, which is about 1700 CEST
<zequence> Ok, time to install on hardware :). Feels pretty solid so far.
<cub> I was thinking that as well
<zequence> Another gnome-software being released. Haven't looked at other packages, so there's a good chance there will be another respin before tomorrow
<cub> oh
<autumna> actually somebody installed a plugin to main stage that functions better than the one I found. ;) 
<zequence> autumna: That might have been me
<zequence> I was trying something out very quickly, but didn't have the time, at the time
<autumna> the page editor you found is the one I was looking for actually, but somehow couldn't get through searching
<autumna> it is much more stable, and doesn't break menu editing
<zequence> One thing that concerns me a little bit is licenses. Haven't checked that at all yet
<zequence> Some of the addons are pretty commercial with a free variant
<zequence> Thought I'd first just get a feel for what is out there
<zequence> Who else has installed on hardware with the latest ISO?
<zequence> The only test result yet reported is with VirtualBox
<zequence> I can't boot from USB stick
<cub> only vbox here as well
<zequence> But, it does work on VirtualBox
<cub> so far
<zequence> Going to change sticks and see if that helps
<zequence> Takes a while to make these. This is a usb3 stick though, should be faster
<zequence> One hour so far. Two tries on the same stick, so about 30min to create it and try a boot
<zequence> If anyone else could test on hardware, that would be really nice
<zequence> At least do a live boot
<zequence> I'm going to try this other stick, and on two machines. If that fails, I need to create a stick on another machine to absolutely confirm, that either this thing is not booting, or I'm crazy
<OvenWerks> live boot on stick works here
<OvenWerks> installing to partition... Past all the usual fail points
<zequence> OvenWerks: Ok. Just googled on the failure, and seems there are multiple possible causes
<zequence> One being just some crappy problems with the filesystem
<zequence> So, hopefully this stick will work
<zequence> Happy to know it's just me then
<zequence> This stick has been through a few boots, so perhaps it's getting old and senile
<OvenWerks> zequence: I have trouble with my front of case USB ports, I think because the case is old and the wiring from MB to plug may not be shielded right. I need to get a USB3 hub...
<zequence> OvenWerks: I see problems with that a lot, especially when kids are involved
<zequence> But, only me is using these usb ports :). Could be they are getting worn, though
<autumna> zequence: this one seems to be fully free, but I am not sure they are open source. :/
<zequence> autumna: PRetty sure it's all open source - since it's in php :)
<zequence> Unless it's possible to compile it - or something else that I don't know about
<zequence> Success! Finally!
<OvenWerks> \o/
<autumna> zequence: heh. point taken. but yeah the one you found doesn't seem to have a pro version? although I haven't checked it in depth
<zequence> autumna: That's good to hear
<zequence> We don't seem to have a default background when choosing install, instead of trying the live version
<zequence> Not the end of the world, but a little bit broken
<OvenWerks> reboot
<zequence> OvenWerks: You mean, it works for you?
<sakrecoer> i see image magick remained in the menu. only one entry this time, but broken too
<sakrecoer> phatch too
<sakrecoer> zequence: i\m doing a hardware install now
<zequence> Seems like the window theming is not working
<zequence> I have adwaita theming again
<OvenWerks> 64 bit install boots up nice
<OvenWerks> I don't remember what theme was there when I booted :)  I changed it to Moheli so window with focus is easily visible and so there is enough border for easy window resize.
 * OvenWerks is not suggesting his setup should be default 
<zequence> Think it would be/win54
<zequence> Oops
<sakrecoer> fresh isntall booted fine here. not sure i see what is up with the window theming?
<sakrecoer> 64-bit i tried..
<sakrecoer> have greybird enabled, was so in the liveISO boot too.. 
<zequence> Weird. Why is everything so weird here?
<sakrecoer> OvenWerks: never tried moheli before. very close to daloa. the nameing suggest its from the same author
<sakrecoer> zequence: i dont even have adwaita to chose..
<sakrecoer> :D
<zequence> Ah, no it's the default
<zequence> But, it looks like Adwaita
<sakrecoer> what package is settings in ?
<sakrecoer> display callibration is broken here...
<sakrecoer> intersting, its seems to be "gcm-calibrate" if i can believe what is written in the menu item...
<sakrecoer> but ubunt-bug says "The problem cannot be reported: The report belongs to a package that is not installed."
<sakrecoer> i can run gcm-calibrate in  cli, but it says "no device was specified" and man is very minimal about it
<sakrecoer> he.. actulay the man pages for gcm-calibrate are for gcm-import...
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer: what does gcm-calibrate do? as in what does it calibrate?
<sakrecoer> screen colors
<sakrecoer> i never used it tbh, but the icon is in settings, and it doesn't work
<sakrecoer> in settings manager it is called "Display Calibration"
<sakrecoer> i looked at it before, but i have no profile to use so never used it...
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer: did you read the tooltip?
<sakrecoer> aaah haha...
 * sakrecoer hides
 * OvenWerks put that tool tip in there
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer: honestly, I don't think even that would work. We really need someone with a colorimeter to play with it and make it so it would work.
<OvenWerks> running gcm-calibrate --help
<OvenWerks> (which gives more info the the man page)
<OvenWerks> the usage looks like:
<OvenWerks> gcm-calibrate [OPTION...] gnome-color-manager calibration tool
<OvenWerks> we don't have gnome-color-manager
<krytarik> We have.
 * OvenWerks instals synaptic
<sakrecoer> krytarik: we do? under another name?
<OvenWerks> krytarik: we do? typing gnome-<tab> does not show it.
<krytarik> Nope, that's part of the package.
<sakrecoer> b-b-but? so how do i start it? :p
<OvenWerks> Yup, synaptic shows it as installed.
<OvenWerks> gcm-calibrate /usr/lib/gnome-color-manager <device>?
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer: this is meant to be run from gnome-settings
<OvenWerks> /usr/lib/gnome-color-manager seems to be a directory
<sakrecoer> ok.. i don't really get it, i don't find gnome-settings :D but never mind, its probably not very important right now :) but thank you OvenWerks ! :)
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer: we don't have gnome-settings, because we do have xfce-settings
<sakrecoer> ah :) of course, now i get it. thanks
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer: in other words we should be looking for another app that doesn't need gnome.
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer: dispcalgui?
<sakrecoer> OvenWerks: maybe. i mean, you do need a calibration device in order to create a calibration-profilce (ICC i think it is called). So its probably working, but i don't have a callibration device to try it...
<zequence>  Opening Software, it's funny how all of the "Editor's picks" are all already installed :)
<zequence> Ah, I haven't turned on the internet yet :)
<sakrecoer> chatting from your brainwaves zequence ? :D
<zequence> sakrecoer: No, just commenting on the applicaton "Software"
<zequence> One, that probably few of us uses
<sakrecoer> :) i was reffering to "I haven't turned on the internet yet" :D
<zequence> Strictly speaking, I hadn't
<OvenWerks> zequence: try using it to install libjack-dev
<OvenWerks> see if it warns you that it is removing most of your audio SW
<zequence> OvenWerks: Isn't it always going to anyway
<zequence> ?
<OvenWerks> zequence: To a new user who is trying to build something it could be a disaster.
<zequence> Software is doing stuff in the background, somehow, as compared to Ubuntu Software Center
<OvenWerks> if the installer doesn't warn you about what it is removing
<zequence> OvenWerks: Well, that's in packaging, is it not?
<OvenWerks> USC doesn't tell you what it is doing
<zequence> It doesn't?
<OvenWerks> Just progress line
<OvenWerks> zequence: I guess we added libjack-jackd2-dev to the seeds so it shouldn't be a problem.
<zequence> Ok, let's find out!
<sakrecoer> hmm.. yeah, software is strange... it suddenly changed the layout. i had synaptic as 1st entry in "editor choice".. and *pof* all gone but scribus and a bunch of category buttons
<zequence> Ubuntu Software Center always had one major bug - it didn't update apt. If you didn't update a lot, it would not install some packages
<OvenWerks> zequence: I guess I didn't use it enough to notice :)
<sakrecoer> hehe... pressing the category buttons give me empty screen... it defaults to "featured" but there is nothing featured :D
<sakrecoer> ah piding is featured, in "internet"
<zequence> Rosco2: Hi. Looking pretty well so far with the latest ISO?
<Rosco2> Just looked at the tracker - and yes
<Rosco2> Haven't started myself
<Rosco2> I left my machines doing an upgrade from Wily & trusty this morning
<zequence> Rosco2: I saw some new package uploads before, so could be we have another respin coming though
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer: I would suggest removing gcm-calibrate and adding DisplayCAL (dispcalgui) for next cycle.
<Rosco2> Looks like the upgrade issue was fixed
<sakrecoer> OvenWerks: i take note of that. we should perhaps ask arround a bit before we decide, it would be nice if at least one person with an actual callibration device could feed back on that..
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer: I don't know how well it works with a real colorimeter, but at least it opens :)
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer: we may as well remove gcm-calibrate anyway. It seems from what I have read so far it is not usable.
<zequence> Rosco2: Oh, cool. So, maybe it is viable then? I'll give it a go tonight
<sakrecoer> hi Rosco2 ! :)
<sakrecoer> i'll give a spin on upgrade later tonight also... until when can we do these tests?
<sakrecoer> oh yay \o/ the parole controles are back in the indicator <3
<sakrecoer> (gold while blendering:p)
<Rosco2> I suppose tomorrow they will want us to mark the tracker as ready
<Rosco2> As early as possible
<sakrecoer> perfect! gives me time to test ffado later tonight
<Rosco2> I will take the afternoon off work
<sakrecoer> :) nice
<Rosco2> Always nice to work on Ubuntu instead of what my boss wnats :-)
 * sakrecoer high5's Rosco2 !
<sakrecoer> agreed :D
<sakrecoer> i don't understand gnome software... i have pressed the button on the top "available", yet i get nothing but the software i have installed...
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer: perhaps asking users to test display calibration... or what do you use (with list of packages to try) Not sure where to ask, maybe same places as the call for backdrops?
<sakrecoer> oh.. is that what you ment by "not enabled internet" zequence ?
<sakrecoer> OvenWerks: good idea, could ask on all social networks realy...
<cub> I saw that all test for 64 bit was done. I'm downloading i386 to do an HW installation later this evening
<OvenWerks> in Software I get Synaptic, notes, HuginBatch, code blocks, Cairo dock, Virtual box and terminator.
<sakrecoer> OvenWerks: i got those a breif moment first start...
<sakrecoer> but they vanished under my eyes..
<sakrecoer> don't know how to get them back..
 * OvenWerks installs cairo dock
<sakrecoer> searching for synaptic gives me no result..
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer: right, going back from the install page just gives me scribus
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer: going to system->all just gives what is already installed
<zequence> OvenWerks: Coming back to what things you can install with Software - only stuff that has .desktop files, basically - from what I can see
<OvenWerks> zequence: makes sense
<OvenWerks> sudo apt-get update and then software works again.
<sakrecoer> OvenWerks: didn't work for me (sudo apt-get update
<sakrecoer> wait i did sudp apt update...
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer: did you exit software first?
<zequence> I didn't do that - I just waited a while
<sakrecoer> yupp
<zequence> Software does an update by itself
<sakrecoer> nope, didn't work-..
<sakrecoer> a reboot did it..
<sakrecoer> but as soon as i leave the first page, i can't find a way back
<zequence> Just takes a certain amount of time, I would think
<sakrecoer> all i get is software that is already installed
<zequence> "All"?
 * OvenWerks installs Hardware Lister
<sakrecoer> zequence: yeah..
<sakrecoer> oh... now i restarted it again but using the "quit" entry from the menu and everything is back...
<OvenWerks> harder lister not worth the install
<zequence> Software was getting an update today already
<zequence> Could be getting more updates after release, quite probably
<zequence> or, gnome-software, as the package is called
<zequence> I heard the Canonical folks wanted to rename it
<zequence> It
<zequence> Think it's called "Ubuntu Software" in Unity, and they wanted also to rename the package
<zequence> Details...
<sakrecoer> the fonts are displaying oddly in software manager.. they have a colored edge like when there is a missmatch of rgb alignment
<zequence> Software Manager?
<sakrecoer> sorry. gnome software
<zequence> Think it's either gnome-software, or "Software" :)
<zequence> But, in Ubuntu, it may also be "Ubuntu Software"
<zequence> Since everyone seems to be using it now, it should mature and get some nice features and bug fixes along the way
<sakrecoer> odd, someone left a great review on phatch in march this year, claiming drag and drop works perfect..
<zequence> Such a lier?!
<sakrecoer> heheh :D
<sakrecoer> well i for one whish i had the same success
<zequence> Sorry 
<zequence> Liar!?
<sakrecoer> all he writes was true, when it worked :D maybe i'm unlucky but i think OvenWerks and Rosco2 tested it too...
<zequence> I just like it when things don't match the way it was planned. And, it so often does not!
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer: Dnd of what where?
<sakrecoer> OvenWerks: PHatCH
<sakrecoer> now i have the big eye floating on my screen and i can't remember the name to use for killall :D
<sakrecoer> ah, "phatch" :facepalm:
 * OvenWerks just added Application Menu to his panel... whisker=fail
<zequence> You guys run Ubuntu Studio for 5mins, and it just crashes and burns?
<sakrecoer> :D
<OvenWerks> no crash and burn.
<OvenWerks> whisker cuts off the item descriptions if they are too long. The ones that are long are often that way because there are two entries with the first part the same
<sakrecoer> gnome software got weird again
<sakrecoer> it doesn't like to be shut down from the window X
<OvenWerks> Ya, phatch image inspector doesn't deal with DnD here either any more. It accepts the filename, and clears it's window title, but then goes into wait forever.
<OvenWerks> software works ok here, (closed by x, closed by exit)
<sakrecoer> OvenWerks: i don't think that is what makes it go bananas, but once it got bananas, quiting it from the menu seems to fix it
<sakrecoer> it's like it loses contact with internet or something
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer: that is a possibility.... but inmo shows bad SW design
<sakrecoer> yeah... when i go into update, press the litle circular refresh button, then when i go back to "All" the entries dissapear one after the other ...
<sakrecoer> yeah... third time i reproduce it now..
<sakrecoer> then if i close it with the window button, it wont come back, but closing it with "quit" in menu, fixes it
<sakrecoer> i should file a bug repport...
 * OvenWerks considers both USC and software bad design anyway...
<zequence> Maybe the design idea is sound, but the implementation still needs to be fixed?
<zequence> It's not for server admins, after all
<sakrecoer> zequence: porbably. it does look good...
<OvenWerks> zequence: anything that fails with network speed or wobble is a bod design.
<OvenWerks> *bad
<OvenWerks> test for internet connect, show stuff, when asked to install, test net again, if goood install.
 * sakrecoer thinks what OvenWerks means by design is what zequence means by implementation
<zequence> OvenWerks: But, there's cache too
<zequence> The apt cache, I mean
<zequence> Before it has internat at all, it will only show the installed packages, nothing else
<OvenWerks> zequence: it seems they are monitoring the network all the time.
<sakrecoer> zequence: but it starts fine with apps that aren't installed, then after "update" it removes all apps that aren't installed yet
<OvenWerks> maybe even have an open connection to some server.
<zequence> sakrecoer: Did you install without internet connection?
<zequence> That is what I did
<zequence> But, if update removes all apps from it's cache, then that would be weird
<zequence> Or, it creates its own cache based on the apt cache each time
<zequence> Seems like there's a lot of stress and activity going with the release side of things
<OvenWerks> anyway, another reboot to make sure alsa restores
<zequence> And, gnome-software is getting an update. What I don't know
 * OvenWerks still likes cairo dock.... even if it is more candy than help :)
<zequence> I used it a lot about 4-5 years ago
<zequence> Haven't tried it since. Went over to Go Docker, or whatever it was called
<zequence> But, since Gnome3, I haven't done any customization whatsoever
<sakrecoer> bug #1572669
<ubottu> bug 1572669 in gnome-software (Ubuntu) "after pressing the refresh icon in "udpates", all available software dissapear except the ones already installed" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1572669
<sakrecoer> zequence: i installed with internet connection
<zequence> sakrecoer: Well, seems to be of no matter, since it does that also in between apt updates
<OvenWerks> alsa remembers setting from boot to boot.
<sakrecoer> wow... gnome-software --verbose :)
<zequence> sakrecoer: Ah, the mafia method. Making it talk!
<zequence> Our packages -sounds and -screensaver were just removed from the archive
<OvenWerks> zequence: That sounds like a good thing ???
<sakrecoer> verbose gives "Gs-DEBUG: app invalid as kind unknown" on EVERY app :D
<zequence> OvenWerks: Yes, it was planned. Ross created the two bugs that did it
<zequence> No one were using them, or maintaining them
<sakrecoer> hahaha!! "mafia method" 
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer: it appears it tries to do a background update every once in a while that fails because it has a bad enetry in polkit
<OvenWerks> (not registered)
<sakrecoer> ye, they are probably still furbishing it :)
<zequence> OvenWerks: Maybe that's the upcoming update?
<OvenWerks> Possible.
<sakrecoer> hope so :) 
<sakrecoer> on a happy note, i'm super impressed with what has happened to "my paint"..
<OvenWerks> Ok, plugging in a USB stick pops up a file manager window... we used to disable stuff like that. (can cause trouble if you happen to recording at the time.)
<sakrecoer> OvenWerks: taking note of that too OvenWerks 
<OvenWerks> killing software after starting it from the terminal... the window vanishes, but the terminal does not show it exited
<OvenWerks> gnome software continues to run in the background. That is also not acceptable for low latency work.
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer: ^^^ that may be why stopping and starting don't make much difference
<zequence> Since we're syncing with Xubuntu, that is just the way things are right now
<zequence> SOmeone needs to take command of maintaining our own DE setup, if we want our own stuff
<zequence> There's much to do there, not just adding a few fixes now and then
<OvenWerks> Right.
<zequence> We could even have a DE lead
<zequence> For us, that makes a lot more sense than for any other distro
<zequence> ..since most of them are dealing mostly with that
<zequence> OvenWerks: Might perhaps suit you?
<zequence> Just thinking out loud - but you are one who does put most focus on that, from a functional POW
<zequence> I'm not assigning any leads right now anyway - I just quit!
<zequence> But, just as an idea
<Rosco2> :-)
<sakrecoer> I was thinking i wanted to learn how to make desktop themes this summer...
<zequence> sakrecoer: That's just for the look of things. Pretty sure Len's less interested in that part
<zequence> He does care more about how different process interact and how they may mess up your daily work, if you care about low latency
<zequence> Also, he does care about the graphics stuff, but more from the view - does it work or not
<sakrecoer> :) that would make us copmlementary. but we'll see.. i have to be carfeull right now about what i get invested in, since i'm going to have a new jobb soon (hopefully)
<sakrecoer> i mean, a part from PL stuff...
<sakrecoer> anyways, with a little luck autumna will stick arround for a while and might be interested in the graphic look of things :)
<sakrecoer> i believe cub is happy with those things too, although not sure he will have more time this cycle
<sakrecoer> guess i'm boiling down to: "yes, it would be nice with our own DE, unless we go DE-agnostic"
<zequence> I'm not so much talking about the look of it, just that it works
<zequence> the look is something that the art department should do, anyway
<zequence> I do believe Len is usually looking out for the audio side of things, and that could break things for other users in some cases
<zequence> So, before we Desktop Agnostic, that would be a bad thing
<zequence> But, I'm sure he can work from a generic POW as well? Anyway, just me thinking loud.
<OvenWerks> I have (in the past - with menus for example) tested things on more than one DE.
<Rosco2> Some of the things we need to tweak for low latency apply on any DE
<zequence> Yes, that is true. But, some things can't be changed on a full DE install, like Unity, or Gnome
<zequence> We do have our own swappiness, and the audio group thing set for the first user
<OvenWerks> Bug #1572681
<ubottu> bug 1572681 in ardour (Ubuntu) "Ardour compiled with wiimote support which is broken." [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1572681
<OvenWerks> Not a show stopper for sure, but if anyone is ever dealing with a user trying to use a wiimote to control Ardour... it won't work.
<OvenWerks> Though midikb can be used to make it workable  :)
<zequence> Sounds like a nice SRU fix later on for who ever wants to do it :)
<OvenWerks> dmesg is in pretty colours now
<OvenWerks> printing 32bit ISO to USB
<sakrecoer> while working on the new website, for this release, we just update this page: http://ubuntustudio.org/download/ right?
<OvenWerks> reboot
<Rosco2> sakrecoer, there is a sort of a checklist here
<Rosco2> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/DevEvents/Release
<sakrecoer> thanks Rosco2 !
<OvenWerks> 32 bit live session is ok
<OvenWerks> 32 bit installing ok so far
<autumna> *tries to catch up to the backlog*
<OvenWerks> reboot, 32 bit installed
<autumna> sakrecoer yes I would definitely be happy to contribute to graphic side of things
<autumna> *has totally tweaked her own custom window decorations*
<autumna> Sakrecoer: btw I might have said this 3 hours ago too so apologies if this is double. I did manually copy the website tweaks in (I haven't committed them to git because still didn't learn that much git *chuckles*) and we do have necessary plugins to edit, you can start piling what you have into the feature tour page, or you can send them to the mailing list or something and I can put them in for you. Either way after we put the co
<OvenWerks> gnome-software update available.
<OvenWerks> gnome-software is still wonky. I think it does stuff in the background with out telling the user it is busy.
<OvenWerks> anyway, 32 bit marked as passed
<OvenWerks> I think gnome-software in ubuntu is different from upstream as it installs snap packages. (paid for SW)
<sakrecoer> well... good thing you bring it up, i got all caught up in testing so i haven't written a line yet :|
<sakrecoer> i'll write it as a draft in the main site tho (ubuntustudio.org)
<sakrecoer> OvenWerks: hehe... gnome-software update will not show up in gnome-software upon refreshing :D
<OvenWerks> snap allows a dev to build and package sw in 16.01 and have it still work in 20.10 :P
<OvenWerks> in other words people who want to paid for their work also do not want to keep the sw up to date
<sakrecoer> OvenWerks: i'll take that for granted when i see it in 2020 :D
 * sakrecoer whips himself a little and logs off to write something for the release party
 * OvenWerks goes back to 14.04 to get some "work" done.
<cub> Just ran an installation of i386 on hw as well. confirmed the bugs OvenWerks had listed
<cub> otherwise it went fine
<cub> I was thinking about looking into creating desktop themes during summer...that was years ago. Maybe next summer...;)
<autumna> cub: how about we will encourage each other to actually sit down and do it? 
<Rosco2> so we have a respin!!
<sakrecoer> autumna: can you login to http://ubuntustudio.org/wp-admin ?
<autumna> yes..
<autumna> or was able to 10 min ago
<autumna> wait no
<sakrecoer> you should find drafts in there you can use while its being finnished.
<autumna> that's the stage. 
<autumna> let me see if I can login
<sakrecoer> ok, then i'l mail it to you as soon as i get home...
<sakrecoer> yes try, i think you should be able being in the website team
<autumna> yes I can login here
<autumna> sorry my brain was completely elsewhere. 
<sakrecoer> \o/
<flocculant> Rosco2: I just a mail saying your build failed? 
<OvenWerks> yes it looks like there was another spin... that failed. I guess that means more testing/late release?
<zequence> OvenWerks: There was a late upload or something that borked it
<zequence> They will do another respin soon
<Rosco2> Walk away for a while and what happens?
<zequence> Rosco2: Build failures and more respins?
<zequence> New ones on the way in abuot 40min, perhaps
<zequence> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-cdimage/+livefs/ubuntu/xenial/ubuntustudio
<zequence> Probably more before they are published. Not sure
<zequence> They are having quite party at the -release channel
<sakrecoer> hmm... intalled along side but grub didn't do its job.
<zequence> sakrecoer: What kind of problem?
<sakrecoer> no entry for the new install the grub menu
<sakrecoer> i''l try reboot a third time
<zequence> sakrecoer: Sure you installed GRUB into the right drive?
<zequence> Or, did you do a manual installation
<zequence> I mean, "or did you do automatic partitioning"
<sakrecoer> i think i did automatic partitioning..
<sakrecoer> in ubiquity, i picked "install along side 14.04"
<flocculant> sakrecoer: can I just say that atm the installer is a bit broke - best to wait till respins spin
<sakrecoer> ok :) 
<sakrecoer> thanks flocculant !
<sakrecoer> it worked fine last time, but i guess i got less lucky this time
<flocculant> and then let you know that by ~4pm they'll want some smoketests done and someone to tick the box
<flocculant> not thanking me now ... 
<sakrecoer> ..for the info :)
<sakrecoer> 4pm... UTC?
<flocculant> always UTC
<sakrecoer> :)
<flocculant> and guessing
<flocculant> and care about Xubuntu at that point :)
<flocculant> always about - but studio is 2nd for me ;)
<zequence> There have been a couple of times where the testing was saved by non Ubuntu Studio members, such as flocculant 
<flocculant> zequence: :)
<flocculant> well - I'd much prefer you had a smaller download :p 
<zequence> lol, yes
<zequence> I remember once I was really stressed, at work, downloads took time, and then did an install on a usb stick, but it was only 8GB!!!!
<zequence> Studio needs a bit more to just be able to install :D
<flocculant> ha ha ha 
<flocculant> I try to \zsync a few times pre panic
<flocculant> sakrecoer: good luck :)
<zequence> I didn't have any good medium to install to. Don't remember my VirtualBox situation at the time, but that's always a choice of course
<zequence> Well, a devent one at least
<flocculant> especially when that Xubuntu QA bloke's running the milestone
<flocculant> he's nasty :D
<zequence> haha
<Rosco2> Build succeeded buy the looks
<Rosco2> I'm zonked - read you all tomorrow
<zequence> Rosco2: Sure thing
<autumna> bye Rosco2
<zequence> I will not do any more installs today either
<flocculant> zequence: what about when you have respins ... 
 * flocculant is refusing - will look tomorrow 
<zequence> flocculant: I'm getting dizzy from all the spinning, so I better lie down for a while, I think
<flocculant> zequence: I kind of gave up 
<flocculant> respun for *&our* fixes - work
<flocculant> smoketesting now ;)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-04-21
<sakrecoer> forgot the password to the staging site again, here is mockup text for the feature tour: http://sakrecoer.com/ubuntustudio/featuretour.txt
<sakrecoer> autumna zequence cub ^^
<autumna> lol
<autumna> I'll start copy pasting this up to the feature tour
<autumna> do you have any graphics (background or foreground yet?)
<sakrecoer> yeah, yo used one already i think, here is for audio: http://sakrecoer.com/ubuntustudio/tour/assets/img/audio/ubuntustudio-mixer.png
<sakrecoer> here is for video: http://sakrecoer.com/ubuntustudio/tour/assets/img/video/ubuntustudio-ayo.png
<sakrecoer> graphics i'm not quite sure...
<sakrecoer> autumna: i mean he graphics workflow
<sakrecoer> but for the foreground, i used moka icon theme: https://code.launchpad.net/~moka/mokaproject/moka-icon-theme
<autumna> do we have licenses for the backgrounds?
<sakrecoer> 99% sure, they are ubuntustudio wallapaper
<autumna> ok
<sakrecoer> moka icon theme is creative common 4.0
<sakrecoer> so if we use them we need to write it somewhere...
<sakrecoer> http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/ 
<autumna> we might replace the backgrounds if need be just trying to keep track of everything
<sakrecoer> autumna: well it seems we will use the good ol site for this release, so there is still plenty of time for that. :)
<autumna> yup :)
<autumna> well it is probably not a good idea to try to change the site right when everyone is trying to reach it anyway :P
<sakrecoer> if you have any idea for illustrating the graphics in a background friendly way, be my guest. i'm facing void with it somehow...
<sakrecoer> good point hehe..
<OvenWerks> downloading 32 bit
<OvenWerks> only %6 to download
<autumna> sakrecoer if I have time I might even poke at the possibility of animated background for first bit
<autumna> http://www.ubuntustudio.zequence.net/feature-test/ feel free to pile stuff in. there is ways to make columns. 
<autumna> and I am off for the night. gnight everyone
<OvenWerks> gnome-software seems to have been fixed
<OvenWerks> 32 bit tested ok (from what I can tell)
<OvenWerks> Still have 64bit to test.
<OvenWerks> I have done as much testing as I could on both ISOs. I have not done upgrade testing.
<OvenWerks> It appears that the big change was gnome-software in the last spin.
<OvenWerks> If no one else has time for testing, they can be marked ready.
<OvenWerks> The two things I can comment on... plymouth doesn't show at all on boot once installed, but does on shutdown. That is probably ok, it does show when booting the ISO which is when the first impression is made.
<OvenWerks> Anyone else have dual screens? Grub is funny on dual screens. The computer boots in "mirror" mode and so the grub menu is on both screens. When using the down key to go through the menu one monitor is ahead of the other. That is, one down press, right monitor moves to second item, second press right monitor moves to third item left monitor moves to second.
<OvenWerks> I think my right is primary.
<OvenWerks> Is it just me?
<krytarik> OvenWerks: I found this one anyway - and no bug report yet: http://askubuntu.com/questions/710922/grub2-boot-menus-out-of-sync-on-dual-monitors
<OvenWerks> krytarik: It is funny how I never noticed it before. I eyes are drawn to the first monitor to display the menu (there is quite a long lag a that point) and so I have never looked at the second monitor.
<OvenWerks> I will wait till I have done my final 16.04 install before doing the bug report. I still use the grub from 14.04 to boot... this is possibly fixed since.
<sakrecoer> OvenWerks: that would explain why it failed on my dual screen.
<sakrecoer> zsyncing in a minute
<sakrecoer> OvenWerks: my grub failed completly tho. menu has no entry for the new install
<sakrecoer> i havent' installed on that machine since i got the second screen
<sakrecoer> autumna: that looks superb!!!
<sakrecoer> autumna: on my wide screen, the first image doesn't fill up and repeats, but it is a detail.
<sakrecoer> aldo morning all.
<sakrecoer> *also
<cub> sakrecoer: http://sakrecoer.com/ubuntustudio/featuretour.txt, just a few misspellings, "Virutal Instruments", "Ubuntustudio"
<cub> And maybe we should update the "Ubuntu Studio is a Linux-based operating system" to go inline with the start page and/or About page.
<cub> now...work meetings for the rest of the day..:/
<sakrecoer> anyone else got this? bug #1572938
<ubottu> bug 1572938 in network-manager (Ubuntu) "Connected to wifi, the indicator behaves odly" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1572938
<zequence> Ah, the current ISO has already been smoke tested.
<sakrecoer> utter fail on my production machine
<sakrecoer> something corrupted the boot drive
<sakrecoer> that is what gparted says.
<sakrecoer> i can still boot into 14.04 but there is no entry fro 16.04 in grub menu
<sakrecoer> dual screen...
<sakrecoer> nvidia..
<zequence> sakrecoer: But didn't you mark it passed?
<sakrecoer> on my laptop it passed
<zequence> Ok
<sakrecoer> can i only make one test?
<zequence> Is it UEFI, or old BIOS?
<sakrecoer> legacy
<sakrecoer> old
<zequence> No, you can make as many as you wish. If it's a critical fail, it's a critical fail
<sakrecoer> well... on my mb i can chose
<zequence> Right, but you are using legacy?
<sakrecoer> yes
<sakrecoer> can't repport the grub bug with ubuntu-bug, what files/logs are needed? i can acces the partition of 16.04 from the 14.04 install...
<sakrecoer> zequence: is it grub or grub2 that is in use on 16.04?
<sakrecoer> grub2 ok...
<zequence> sakrecoer: If you can't boot into it, it's a little hard to use ubuntu-bug. Could be possible to chroot into that system though
<sakrecoer> bug #1572971
<zequence> And, perhaps the install logs would be interesting to see, if they are still in /var somewhere
<ubottu> bug 1572971 in grub2 (Ubuntu) "grub2 failing to create grub menu (and possibly corrupting the boot-drive)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1572971
<sakrecoer> just made a checksum to be certain, and my iso file is all good :(
<sakrecoer> i think i'll try install and reformat. jsut finished the backup... touching wood
<sakrecoer> zsync does the checksum automagicaly anyways, right?
<zequence> sakrecoer: It has failed me at one or two times in the past. Not sure exactly what it does
<zequence> I had to do another zsync, and then it worked
<sakrecoer> ok.. hmm.. but the md5sum gave me correct output, so that can't be the problem right?
<zequence> No, then it should be good
<sakrecoer> i hope it was the last iso that corrupted my boot-drive..
<sakrecoer> and that reformating everything will make everything good :)
<sakrecoer> in process right now... 
<sakrecoer> if not i will aslo try to just unplugg one screen... if the fault remains, then it has to be something fishy with nvidia drivers
<zequence> nvidia drivers won't affect GRUB
<zequence> NOthing will, except the installer, pretty much
<zequence> From what I understand, you were just lacking the sections in GRUB for your new installation
<zequence> That usually means GRUB was not installed into the MBR, but somewhere else
<sakrecoer> yes
<zequence> So, the word corruption is highly speculative at this point
<sakrecoer> i mentioned that in the bug repport actualy
<sakrecoer> put it into parenthesis and added "Boots straight into 14.04 where Gparted reports boot-drive to be corrupted." 
<zequence> Oh, right. gparted
<sakrecoer> i used gparted shortly before installing, and there was no warning messages. they came up after the iso test yesterday, which were not done with the latest build
<zequence> To reproduce, you meay need recreate the dual boot situation
<zequence> ..and follow the same steps you did last time, when installing the second one
<zequence> I did a dual boot, or  triple boot yesterday, so it works for me
<zequence> But, could be I did somethig different
<sakrecoer> zequence, you did that on a dual screen?
<zequence> sakrecoer: I don't see why you think that has anything to do with GRUB
<sakrecoer> well read OvenWerks chats above
<sakrecoer> and it works fine on my laoptop, here i have triple boot too
<zequence> sakrecoer: Ok, so GRUB is displayed on two screens
<sakrecoer> ovenwerk had the same problem as described here: http://askubuntu.com/questions/710922/grub2-boot-menus-out-of-sync-on-dual-monitors
<zequence> But, that won't affect the installation of it
<sakrecoer> no, i have a different problem...
<sakrecoer> but grub since to dislike dualscreens, and that is the only major difference i can see between my laptop and my desktop
<zequence> Yeah, well, it
<zequence> There's no correlation between installing stuff and how it is shown on screen, unless we are talking about configs based on a setup
<zequence> If GRUB installs screen configs, that would be utterly idioti
<zequence> IT needs to work on any machine, anytime
<zequence> So, I'm about 99.99% sure that's not the case here
<sakrecoer> alright...
<sakrecoer> now the formatation was finished, and i can't boot at all.
<sakrecoer> format+freshinstall
<zequence> Ok, so something is not working on that machine. That's pretty serious, unless there's a problem with your drive
<zequence> You could try installing onto a usb stick on the same machine.
<zequence> Or, another drive
<zequence> sakrecoer: Do you have multiple drives, btw?
<zequence> I'm still wondering about if you are ware of where GRUB is being installed
<sakrecoer> yes. 2
<zequence> So, did you check when installing this time? How did you do the installation?
<zequence> Did you partition manually or did you choose an automatic option?
<sakrecoer> i chose erase disk and install 16.04, picked the disk where i have my system (sdb) and went on
<zequence> Ok
<zequence> So, that's the problem then
<sakrecoer> automatic
<zequence> GRUB is in sda
<zequence> Doesn't affect the content of the drive, only that GRUB is installed there
<zequence> So, that was probably your problem all along
<sakrecoer> it worked like that last time i installed..
<sakrecoer> but ok :)
<flocculant> sakrecoer: it always defaults to sda
<zequence> You can either change the order of your drives in the MB config, or you partition manually, and select the drive where GRUB is installed from the same window (the partitioner)
<sakrecoer> flocculant: than i must have made it manually..
<flocculant> yup
<sakrecoer> zequence: ok
<sakrecoer> i wonder why that drive gets sdb, it is first in order. must be the way they are connected or something..
<zequence> Could be something has changed with the latest kernel doing that
<sakrecoer> yeah, its on sata 2
<zequence> Oh, right, of course. It's done physically
<sakrecoer> i need food... anways it 12:05 UTC which means there are 4 hours left :D
<sakrecoer> should i mark that bug as invalid?
<sakrecoer> bug #1572971
<ubottu> bug 1572971 in grub2 (Ubuntu) "grub2 failing to create grub menu (and possibly corrupting the boot-drive)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1572971
<Rosco2> sakrecoer, if you are sure it is not a bug the mark invalid
<Rosco2> otherwise add a note to it that it might not be a bug so others can try and reproduce
<Rosco2> bug #1531852 not reported this time around. Is it Ok now - or just not tested?
<ubottu> bug 1531852 in recordmydesktop (Ubuntu) "Output is corrupt: video glitching out." [Undecided,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1531852
<Rosco2> Just trying to tidy up our release notes as I go
<sakrecoer> Rosco2: regarding recordmydesktop, last weeks iso didn't adress it... i can try it now.
<sakrecoer> i marked the grub bug as an "opinion" because i was expecting the installer to automagicaly put grub on the same drive as the system
<sakrecoer> but i guess that makes it an installer bug
<sakrecoer> and that would be ubiquity right?
<sakrecoer> (maybe "wishfully thinking" would fit "opinion" better than "expecting)
<zequence> sakrecoer: I think what you could do is create a bug for ubiquity about not being able to select where GRUB is installed
<zequence> (when not doing a manual partitioning)
<zequence> That's something even I could probably be able to fix in the code
<zequence> Think we should look into other websites, particularly free software projects, and take some pointers on how to do our website
<autumna> *steps in*
<autumna> zequence: fully agreed. I have been already looking into other ubuntu distros sites. 
<zequence> I was just looking at Libre Office. Not just the graphics side of it, but what things to express in text and images
<zequence> We could put together a list of websites that are good to take example of in different ways, and start figuring out how we want to do it
<zequence> We make a plan first, before doing all the work with the pages
<autumna> that is a good idea, I would also suggest that if anyone has any very strong opinions and ideas about how to build a particular page, that they do it, then we can look at different versions and mix and match
<autumna> one thing I was thinking that what sakrecoer created as "feature tour" actually makes a good intro, but then each category needs to link I think to more detailed overview of various software we have and what they are used for, in sort of sub categories. (idea sort of adapted from software boutique of mate, rather than website tbh although it looks like there was plan for that in the previous website as well)
<autumna> also another thing to think is that once we figure out what is the general plan, figure out which parts are required to launch the site, then produce some of the content regularly, continously, rather than trying to do everything in one swoop, and either take forever or have it rushed...
<autumna> just thinking out loud
<zequence> Yes, it would be good to have subcategories defined
<zequence> I like how Libre Office has submenus for "Discover". That's where we could put those pages, apart from linking to them for the front page as well
<autumna> ok you know what. I am writing these down to the wiki. hang on
<sakrecoer> Rosco2: oddly, screenrecorder worked fine in the live-session now. but not in the post installation
<zequence> video stuff may not work in virtual environments, so those should always be checked on hardware
<Rosco2> odd. worked for me last time in live. Never tested on after install
<zequence> (just saying, not to sakrecoer)
<sakrecoer> zequence: i'm doing it on hardwRE
<sakrecoer> AH OK
<sakrecoer> sorry caps
<sakrecoer> autumna: zequence: what is the plan for the current websites feature tour, it needs a bit of adjustment..
<zequence> sakrecoer: OK, MAN
<sakrecoer> :)
<zequence> sakrecoer: As me and autumna were just saying. We should make a plan for it. Do some research first
<sakrecoer> zequence: yes i read that, i'm thinking about this page: http://ubuntustudio.org/tour/
<sakrecoer> or are we going to wait to announce release until we have the feature tour ready?
<zequence> sakrecoer: Oh, well, if you want to change things there now, please do. Otherwise, we'll just change later
<zequence> No, we announce today, and change the Download page
<autumna> I assumed we were just going to put the download link and not make changes to rest?
<sakrecoer> ok, i made a mockup of the download page yesterday, and also a draft post for release anouncement
<sakrecoer> autumna: thing is there are quite a few changes: software gone, other new... so we might just need to remove some text and and some other. no biggie..
<zequence> sakrecoer: Alright, but I think I would like to finish that up (the release announcement), considering it's my last release and I was thinking of adding the new about the project leader shift, as well
<sakrecoer> sure man! :) be myguest!
<autumna> cool
<sakrecoer> or rather: sure boss :) your wish is my command :)
 * zequence is the boss of bosses
<autumna> (btw sakrecoer minor thing but I do have an idea about feature tour background images. but I will need help for the video section *laughs*)
<sakrecoer> sure autumna! 
<autumna> ok I am kind of stuck on the front page, first impressions and all that.
<zequence> I'm starting to rethink a little, still using sakrecoer's version as the main inspiration
<autumna> *nods*
<autumna> 2 places I am looking that I find I like are https://www.blender.org/
<zequence> But, we should really forget about the old feature tour all together and start from scratch with the textual part of it - which can be combined with symbols
<autumna> https://ubuntu-mate.org/community/
<autumna> err the wrong link. the main page of that. 
<autumna> about that I can try to do the graphics section of it..
<zequence> The blender site is very efficient for them. They have lots of news, so worth having that on the front page. Background white, very modern web page, functional. The website for Mate, I feel is a little plain
<zequence> So, I'm hoping we can do better :)
<autumna> mate I like the content organization (I am not sure I like libreoffice for that)
<zequence> Libre Office is quite a bit richer than what we need
<autumna> blender's updates, I don't know I go back and forth on that. on one hand seeing regular updates on front page helps users feel things are changing, that the project is fresh. on other hand is it clutter we don't need?
<zequence> But, there are details here and there worth checking out
<autumna> I think libreoffice overall did a great job, but.. its almost.. too much stuff.
<cub> ubuntu-mate.org doesn't translate well to mobile
<sakrecoer> ha.. ok, libreoffice has a different page for swedish verison
<autumna> oh yeah I was looking at the english one
<sakrecoer> autumna: clutter on the front page, rather not indeed
<zequence> sakrecoer: Really?
<zequence> See, this is why I said there are details that are interesting
<sakrecoer> zequence: duckduckgo brought me here: https://sv.libreoffice.org/
<autumna> cub: it is the same layout we are using. and it seems to scale ok? which aspect are you referring to?
<zequence> sakrecoer: I think that's what the English version used to look like too
<autumna> sakrecoer: that is like the opposite end of the spectrum, compared to the libreoffice.org
<autumna> ;D
<cub> Mate don't scale on my iPhone 5
<cub> text is wider than screen
<autumna> oh dear
<sakrecoer> yeah, libreoffice.org gives me headache...
<sakrecoer> :D
<sakrecoer> mate is pretty much what we have with the new theme, isn't it?
<autumna> cub, http://www.ubuntustudio.zequence.net/ could you test this on same device?
<zequence> I'm more focusing on the way it communicates - not the graphics or the actual content
<autumna> just to make sure there isn't a bug in the theme that is affecting everybody
<zequence> The most important thing with the website is to explain to people what UBuntu Studio is
<sakrecoer> in a way, what you did here autumna http://www.ubuntustudio.zequence.net/feature-test/ i can see that being the front page really...
<autumna> I mean when you have the chance doesn't have to be now
<autumna> ;)
<zequence> sakrecoer: I redid that a bit, just before
<zequence> It's work in progress
<autumna> sakrecoer yup. I was debating having a few blog post blurbs there or not, but i think for libreoffice, the slideshow ends up tipping it toward too much
<zequence> While doing it, I realized we need to rethink how we do it
<autumna> you should be going on one direction, not 2, in my opinion, but hey that's just my opinion
<zequence> Look, can we stop talking about Libre Office now? I never said we should take their look
<autumna> zequence: what do you want to change? or rethink?
<autumna> hahahaha sorry
<zequence> If I say details, I don't mean the whole thing, ok?
<zequence> autumna: That is why I suggested we start doing research and make a plan
<zequence> I at least feel we can improve it a few steps
<autumna> zequence: i am all for that. I was just not sure if there is any parts you feel is not working (even if you don't have a solution)  *shrugs*
<zequence> I don't really see the page saying anything yet. It's just four containers of color
<zequence> The most important part is what it communicates
<zequence> People who don't know what UBuntu Studio is should understand that as quickly as possible
<cub> http://www.ubuntustudio.zequence.net/ scales nice (so far) on iPhone 5 at least
<autumna> cub: *phiew* 
<autumna> thank you for testing it
<zequence> We already knew that page works
<zequence> It's cause of knome's theme
<knome> cub, my fault, sorry! :P
<autumna> hi knome
<autumna> zequence: ok. so I am a new user. why am I here. this is not a software, this is a distro, so I want to know.. well first how to get it. we have that
<autumna> why should I use this distro, what is it, the blurb is good for that but.. hmm
<zequence> autumna: Yeah, let's make a plan for. But, right now, we should focus on the upcoming release.
<autumna> yeah
<autumna> sorry to distract all of you
<zequence> autumna: Don't be sorry
<sakrecoer> autumna, i would suggest you write down a concept and send it to ubuntustudio-devel mailing list :) that would help us all read things calmly in a well organized way. (which sort of implies higher convining potential)
<sakrecoer> it would also create a nice and easy to follow trail :)
<autumna> thanks sakrecoer I was thinking of dumping it all on the wiki, but for the brainstorm/dialogue that works better
<sakrecoer> autumna: yes, we can have the wiki-page zequence created to keep track of decisions made in the brainstorm
<autumna> *nods*
<zequence> You know what? I think I will skip the whole web site thing. It's really not my responsibility anymore, and I can use the extra time.
<cub> hehe
<zequence> But, you can continue using my web hotel for staging
<sakrecoer> zequence: :) i was about to ask how the music is going <3 can we still count on your casual feedback and pertinent insights on the outcome of the brainstorming?
<autumna> zequence: what sakrecoer said
<zequence> Of course. After release, I might not be following IRC as much, but I will always be logged in as usual. I'll also be monitoring the mail lists
<zequence> If I think of something, I'll let you know
<sakrecoer> \o/
<autumna> :)
<autumna> I am torn between saying "we'll miss you" and "enjoy your vacation"
<zequence> If you have any questions about the technicalities around the theming and implementing it on our main website, just let me know. knome can also assist in this
<Rosco2> bug #1572669
<ubottu> bug 1572669 in gnome-software (Ubuntu) "after pressing the refresh icon in "udpates", all available software dissapear except the ones already installed" [High,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1572669
<Rosco2> I think there was a new ulpoad of Gnme Software before the last respin
<Rosco2> Works for me. Others still see it?
<sakrecoer> Rosco2: works for me too :)
<Rosco2> OK, I will mark it as probably fixed in the last version after reading the changelog
<cub> Should be release in about an hour?
<sakrecoer> bug #1572979 makes the process of the QA test fail at point 17 in http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/milestones/359/builds/117407/testcases/1300/results
<ubottu> bug 1572979 in plymouth (Ubuntu) "On dual screen, plymouth boot graphics are missplaced" [Undecided,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1572979
<sakrecoer> but the good news, is that after swtiching the sata ports of my drives, the install went smooth.
<sakrecoer> forgive my ignorance, grub and all you who helped me understand what was going on <3
<zequence> sakrecoer: 16.04.1 will be the next point release, so this release is just 16.04
<zequence> You could say this one is 16.04.0
<sakrecoer> zequence: ok :) are you reffering to the drafts on the website?
<zequence> sakrecoer: Yes, I was filling in the missing links there. Since they all follow the same scheme, it's pretty straightforward
<sakrecoer> great!
<sakrecoer> i'm super greatfull you insisted on doing that zequence.. i have some issue i need to deal with arround 5 pm UTC+2
<zequence> sakrecoer: It's my last duty and should fall on me anyway
<autumna> zequence: sakrecoer you need any help with the updating of the current site?
<zequence> autumna: sakrecoer wanted to do some minor changes in the feature tour. If you can spot the stuff that needs changing, you are free to do so
<autumna> ok
<zequence> I'm almost done with the Download page. And, the release notes should be done by me anyway
<autumna> if you want a beta after you are done writing it. let me know.
<autumna> sakrecoer: were you planning to reorganize the tour to make it 3 categories?
<zequence> autumna: No, just change some stuff that isn't accurate anymore among the package selection
<Rosco2> I still want to run live install & post install once
<autumna> ok I'll take a look but I am not sure how much help unfortunately, since I am not exactly up to date as to what changed.
<Rosco2> Any objections to me marking the ISO ready as I go?
<zequence> Rosco2: Nope
<sakrecoer> Rosco2: nope
<sakrecoer> this one bug #1572938 happened on my other machine aswell... you guys not?
<ubottu> bug 1572938 in network-manager-applet (Ubuntu) "Connected to wifi, the indicator behaves odly" [Low,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1572938
<Rosco2> Thats why I wanted to run the live session once
<cub> Rosco2: Go go go! :D
<Rosco2> OK - I trust you guys - I marked it ready
<cub> sakrecoer: I didn't get #1572938 yesterday, but perhaps something changed in the latest spin
<sakrecoer> cub: it works fine until you restart the network-manager from the indicators menu
<sakrecoer> and actualy, it reconnects allright, jsut the icon is changed and the list of available networks vanishes
<Rosco2> Think I will leave reference in the Release Notes to the old bugs that seem to still be there.
<Rosco2> The new ones reported seem to be minor, so won't mention them
<Rosco2> Anything else I should tweak on there bosses?
<Rosco2> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/XenialXerus/ReleaseNotes/UbuntuStudio
<autumna> it says pre-release
<autumna> is this for testing or for publishing? 
 * autumna is somewhat lost
<Rosco2> Thanks - it was a copy and paste
<autumna> no worries. *continues to read*
<Rosco2> error
<OvenWerks> Sorry for not testing recordmydesktop, it was not in the bugs to watch for section.
<autumna> very minor nitpick: "The categorization in the menu has changed. Still work in progress, but we have gone from 5 main categories down to 3 - audio, graphics and video."
<autumna> correction proposed: "The categorization in the menu has changed from 5 categories down to 3 - audio, graphics and video"
<OvenWerks> autumna: you could say 4, because photography still has it's own menu
<OvenWerks> It is just sub to graphics
<autumna> ok s
<OvenWerks> But yes, the menu has changed.
<autumna> "The categorization in the menu has changed from 5 categories down to 3 - audio, gaphics and video. Photography is now available as a subcategory under Graphics"
<Rosco2> Thanks
<OvenWerks> Also, the install is still 5 categories.
<zequence> Rosco2: I changed the row on desktop changes, saying we synced with xubuntu pretty much
<zequence> If you prefer a different wording, please redo it
<autumna> OvenWerks and everyone isn't that more of a known issue than a "change" through?
<zequence> autumna: What is?
<OvenWerks> autumna: I need to know what "that" is
<autumna> zequence: the install having 5 categories.
<OvenWerks> I think that is a good thing
<zequence> It's not very important. The menu does not reflect upon our packaging. They are two different things
<OvenWerks> For install it would not hurt to make more categories
<zequence> I agree
<OvenWerks> Easier to install just the sw the user wants.
<autumna> I am neutral either way. I would say it made sense to merge publishing and graphics through
<zequence> autumna: We aren't making that kinf of choices right now. We're preparing release notes
<OvenWerks> :)
<autumna> just approving the choice made zeuqence ;D
<autumna> *typing fail*
<autumna> Zequence's item rewording proposed: Desktop features of Ubuntu Studio are now fully synced with Xubuntu
<autumna> nvm the current wording is fine
<zequence> autumna: I'm not sure you know whether or not that is true
<zequence> "fully" would not be totally accurate
<autumna> zequence: I don't know anything, just working from what i am listening here :) 
<zequence> autumna: Considering you are so new here, I would suggest you leave this part for us
<zequence> It's the sum of the work for the past 6 months
<autumna> *nods* sorry to overstep. 
<zequence> I'm sure you'll be better informed if you stick around for the next cycle, when it's time for this again :)
<Rosco2> Just made autumna's category & prerelease tweaks
<Rosco2> I have to go and fetch my son - back in 15 mins
<zequence> Isn't ardour the same as ardour3 now?
<sakrecoer> glad to confrim ffado is working fine here...
<sakrecoer> now i just need to figure out how to make blender cuda aware again :p but that is not our problem (pointing fingers at nvidia)
<zequence> ardour3 is just a transitional package since ardour was not replaced with ardour(4)
<zequence> Changing the line about ardour
<zequence> Let me do a diff and see which packages we have changed in the multimedia metas between releases
<zequence> sakrecoer: What FF device are you using?
<sakrecoer> zequence: terratec phase 88 rack
<sakrecoer> plug'n'play <3
<zequence> sakrecoer: Oh, a firewire kind. A friend has two of those as PCIs
<zequence> I'm going to make a tool for reporting diffs in between releases, making this part of the release notes a bit simpler
<sakrecoer> zequence: <3
<sakrecoer> Rosco2: zequence: maybe a mention about the new wallpapers? not a crucial change, but would make the community happy i think
<sakrecoer> ^ re: release notes
<sakrecoer> not sure if i should edit the page or if that will mess up your current edits..
<sakrecoer> -> wont edit anything until green light. however: "ImageMagick Entries not working" should now be "ImageMagick Entry not working"
<zequence> sakrecoer: The community wallpaper part seems important, yes
<Rosco2> zequence, obvious addition to metas is the puredata metapackage
<zequence> Rosco2: Yes, but I'm thinking I should omit that, unless it added something new
<zequence> I need to check
<Rosco2> I only mentioned because the diff will show less, but in reality there is more :-)
<zequence> Also, I'm considering we should do a changes since Wily, and a changes since Trusty on the package selection
<zequence> Rosco2: Right
<autumna> is there any particular reason why ardour item is combined with the rest of the package update item? otherwise it might make sense to split them. 
<zequence> autumna: We will probably change that line soon, as more packages will be included
<Rosco2> Just what I started typing
<autumna> *laughs*
<zequence> diff trusty -> xenial http://paste.ubuntu.com/15966456/
<zequence> Unfortunately, not very good color scheme there
<zequence> Diff wily -> xenial http://paste.ubuntu.com/15966487/
<zequence> actually, if we are going to do both, the one diff should be trusty -> wily
<zequence> Which is this one http://paste.ubuntu.com/15966521/
<zequence> I'm going to start looking at that. If someone would like to assist, do the one trust -> xenial
<zequence> Sorry
<zequence> wily -> xenial
<zequence> Proably easier to download as text and open with an editor that has color scheming
<sakrecoer> zequence: "<" means removed and ">" means added?
<sakrecoer> can't be..
<sakrecoer> don't worry too much, i take note of my question and will shoot it at a better moment
<zequence> sakrecoer: No, it's right. But, you have to remember that some files have changed as well.
<zequence> Like, -audio-core was introduced after trusty
<zequence> And, pd stuff was removed, and replaced with a meta package
<zequence> I can only find three significant changes between trusty and wily
<zequence> ubuntustudio-audio-core, petri-foo and x42-plugins
<zequence> Sorry, additions
<zequence> There are removals too
<zequence> Thinking we don't mention desktop changes specifically. Just that it was synced with Xubuntu
<zequence> So, the only significant removal I could find was lv2fil
<zequence> I'm adding those as changes since trusty
<zequence> sakrecoer: Are you looking at something right now?
<sakrecoer> zequence: not really, need a hand
<sakrecoer> ?
<zequence> sakrecoer: No, it's alright. I'm almost done
<zequence> Ok, think I got it. Always a chance for an error somewhere. Hard to create a diff tool that is smarter than this, without lots of config options needed
<sakrecoer> i'm fighting with the wifi bug,
<sakrecoer> i get disconnected sometimes from the hotspot of my phone (ubuntuphone :p)
<sakrecoer> and then it takes much fight with the NM to get back online
<sakrecoer> (the disconnection issue isn't new to xenial)
<Rosco2> Sorry zequence - I thought sakrecoer was on the case
<Rosco2> Then I got distracted with my favourite test case which ends with me playing youtube videos of my favourite Aussie bands from the old days :-)
<zequence> Rosco2: I didn't really need any help :)
<zequence> haha
<sakrecoer> Rosco2: lol, well i could barly read those diffs so...
<sakrecoer> plus i've had to reboot a few times to get wifi
<sakrecoer> ok, well it looks like i resolved my wifi problem this time. \o/
<sakrecoer> looked into the connection editor, there was one entry for ethernet and 2 for wifi.
<sakrecoer> deleted them all, rebooted, and now i can't even reproduce it
<zequence> sakrecoer: Maybe the new kernel can attach to the neighbours wifi as well?
<zequence> I haven't had any problems myself, but I didn't mess much with the applets
<sakrecoer> both wifi had m wifi name, but the sconed with a 2 appendedn
<zequence> I'm all done with the release announcement, so pretty much done until Ubuntu is released
<sakrecoer> the thernet i don't know who it got there... haven't plugged an ethernet cable in ages
<zequence> The way we know it is released is when either someone says GO! in the -release channel, or they post an announcement in the mail lists
<sakrecoer> ok
<zequence> Even if we have our cdimages ready, we should wait with release announcements until we get a go, which is how I described
<sakrecoer> my brain is fried from yesterday and today...
<zequence> I don't usually do this amount of work, but I guess you guys inspire me
<zequence> Don't want to be the sloppy one in the bunch
<sakrecoer> i'm really not used to this type of IRC pressure..
<sakrecoer> need to work on that..
<zequence> sakrecoer: You'll have six months to prepare for the next one
<Rosco2> :-)
<sakrecoer> i geuess by then it will be worse, i have almost not checked -release at all this time
<sakrecoer> my typing has gone from bad to worse in 24 hours
<zequence> It's good to go in there and see the latest developments now and again
<zequence> Does it look weird with so much bold text in the release notes now?
<zequence> I though either have it on all packages, or none. But, now I'm not sure
<zequence> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/XenialXerus/ReleaseNotes/UbuntuStudio
<sakrecoer> i guess its ok.
<zequence> Rosco2: Thanks for the great work on the release notes, btw.
<sakrecoer> still no mention about wallpapers..
<zequence> sakrecoer: Oh, just add it
<sakrecoer> ok
<sakrecoer> so weird, on the production machine there is also a wired connection and 2 wifi connections... none of them have the same mac adresse in the device field..
<sakrecoer> however, deleting all entries solved it there too..
<Rosco2> It is done!
<Rosco2> http://www.ubuntu.com/
<zequence> Rosco2: Alright, thanks. I'll prepare the web site.
<OvenWerks> I think this page first https://ubuntustudio.org/download/
<zequence> OvenWerks: Yep, we already have it done. Just need to publish
<OvenWerks> Right. It is 4 clicks from http://www.ubuntu.com/... Not too bad.
<zequence> Just went through all the links, but haven't actually tried downloading anything. Should work https://ubuntustudio.org/download
<zequence> And announcing the new release, as well as the next project lead https://ubuntustudio.org/2016/04/new-ubuntu-studio-release-and-new-project-lead/
<OvenWerks> zequence: Looks good and still easy to find from the main ubuntu page.
<Rosco2> Might want to edit the release notes link from that page
<Rosco2> Pointing at Trusty
<zequence> Rosco2: Ok, thanks
<Rosco2> Direct download link seems to be working
<zequence> Ok, should be fixed
<Rosco2> Looks good
<Rosco2> Well done everyone \o/
<zequence> Yes, well done!
<Rosco2> I'm going straight to the fridge for a beer!
<zequence> sakrecoer: I'm adding our wallpaper (without CoF) + plymouth style logo to social site releases (at least facebook)
<zequence> Not being too serious with it. Just to have something to look at besides the links
<zequence> Just to the post, not to the pages themselves, to be clear
<zequence> The CoF is in the logo, but you can see for yourself
<zequence> Only to facebook, as it seems. Doesn't work the same way on G+
<cub> http://ubuntustudio.org/download Should we not keep the 14.04 links for a while as it's supported for another year?
<zequence> I think the idea is that LTS users move onto the next LTS, but that they have about a year to do so, if they are already on the old one
<zequence> Would be correct to include 14.04, but a little unusual
<OvenWerks> zequence: 14.04 is at 14.04.4 right now? is there a 14.04.5 etc?
<zequence> OvenWerks: I might have overlooked that
<zequence> Let's see
<OvenWerks> If it ends at 14.04.4 then it is expected for people to move on.
<zequence> Yes, at 14.04
<zequence> Sorry, 14.04.4
<zequence> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TrustyTahr/ReleaseSchedule
<zequence> According to that, 14.04.4 is the last release
<OvenWerks> if there is a .5 then it would make sense to have the link. There is support for another year, but it is expected that a new install would the latest LTS
<OvenWerks> Therefore offering a DL link for an old LTS does not make sense
<OvenWerks> maybe not even W.
<zequence> Yes, you are right
<zequence> We should remove Wily. There's no reason to have it there
<zequence> Only when we don't release an LTS do we have two
<OvenWerks> zequence: right.
<Rosco2> If you are downloading, you would take the latest LTS
<OvenWerks> I think that makes +3 :)
<Rosco2> But the Ubuntu Mainpage has all the options including 12.04 http://www.ubuntu.com/download/alternative-downloads
<zequence> They do support for 5 years
<OvenWerks> Rosco2: That is a separate page the main download page does not.
<cub> it's still available, just not directly from the download page
<cub> Xubuntu don't even include links to 15.10
<zequence> Ubuntu is also mostly tuned towards servers
<zequence> We shouldn't either
<zequence> I'm going to remove 15.10 from the download page
<zequence> Don't know why I didn't think about that :)
<OvenWerks> Rosco2: The main desktop download is one image only, 16.04/64bit
<OvenWerks> Alternative is another name for archives
<zequence> I could add a link to all of our releases
<Rosco2> Keep it simple :-)
<zequence> Oh, I meant that for the older releases :)
<OvenWerks> make it point at http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntustudio/releases/
<zequence> Yep
<Rosco2> +1
<zequence> I'm adding a line that points there
 * OvenWerks notes that there is a 12.04.5 :)
<cub> yup
<zequence> Of course. Ubuntu should probably have another few point release coming, considering they support for 5 years
<zequence> With each new kernel, principally
<zequence> Easy to get confused :)
<cub> might not be a Ubuntu Studio thing, but many applications only have support for 14.04 still. Like some HW we use at work I need to install 14.04 of distros to make it work.
<OvenWerks> zequence: I don't see that... when the new LTS comes out a new install should use it.
<zequence> OvenWerks: Maybe not for servers
<cub> Though...most would not use Studio for those appliances
<OvenWerks> I think that is part of the reason for snap
<zequence> OvenWerks: Especially if you have a whole infrastructure based on that
<OvenWerks> zequence: ya I guess for keeping al the machines on the same release
<zequence> Ok, does this work? https://ubuntustudio.org/download/
<cub> The #ubuntustudio channel topic badly needs an update. :P
<OvenWerks> zequence:  works for me.
<cub> zequence, but are all the releases in the "older" link supported?
<cub> "To find all of our supported releases"
<zequence> Oh, damn
<Rosco2> Better to say older releases instead of supported
<zequence> I just took for granted the non supported ones would have been removed
<cub> perhaps "To find all of our supported (and unsupported) releases" but that might sound confusing
<cub> Rosco2, yeah, older is better.
<Rosco2> Need to add that 14.04 is supported 1 more year
<zequence> The non supported ones should not be there anymore. Think it's a bug, based on that Ubuntu supports for five years
<cub> I think we had that discussion last LTS release as well?
<cub> Soemthing with Ubuntu saving all releases for archiving purposes
<cub> Have anyone tested this? "The minimum memory requirement for Ubuntu Studio is 512 MB of memory."
<zequence> How about I just link to 14.04 instead
<zequence> That's the only one we are interested in anyway
<knome> cub, you can probably *run* with 512MB, but i wouldn't expect it to be fast
<OvenWerks> cub to run maybe, not much use I think.
<knome> OvenWerks, is it echoing in here? :)
<OvenWerks> knome :)
 * OvenWerks is one of those who has to look at the keyboard while typing  ...
<knome> i usually watch the open irc channel
<knome> regardless if i'm writing a message to irc or not
<OvenWerks> re #ubuntustudio topic. Can I assume we want a more generic one like we have here?
<cub> knome, didn't Xubuntu do tests a year ago or so on how low you can go on RAM?
<knome> cub, your minimum says 512MB, recommended is 1GB
<OvenWerks> The last one was set by unit193
<OvenWerks> recomended should be over 2G
<cub> OvenWerks, I was mostly thinking of 14.04.3 adn 15.10 released..
<zequence> FOr us, recommended is definitely over 2GB
<zequence> But, in these modern days, I would go as far as saying 4GB
<cub> If I run Ubuntu Studio and log in with Xfce I think I'm already over 512 MB
<cub> zequence, Bah! I have a total of 4 GB. When using dwm I use 128 MB after login..:D
<zequence> Think I based the minimum on what was minumum for all except Lubuntu at around 13.04 or so
<zequence> cub: Yes, but for using actual applications you'll need a lot more
<OvenWerks> The minimum installed on any HW seems to be 1G even on a Pi
<zequence> I mean, for using applications.
<zequence> We don' have linuxsampler, but using that, and a few other applications, you'd start to suffer pretty quickly
<zequence> ..depending on your sample sizes
<OvenWerks> 1gig ram is enough for on stage use as a guitar effect.
<zequence> That sounds like a minimum requirement in a way
<OvenWerks> also ok for idjc use
<knome> it indeed is relative to what you are doing
<knome> if it's a graphic artist setup, they might only be running inkscape
<zequence> I put 2GB there maybe three years ago based on what you would be comfortable with
<OvenWerks> I would put 1Gig min and 4G recomended
<zequence> Yes, me too
<zequence> Sounds fair?
<cub> up
<cub> yup
<OvenWerks> I could (and have) gotten a lot of use from 2.5G, but the low end desktop comes with 4G anyway.
<OvenWerks> I have 8 now.
<zequence> I should also mention you need at least 10GB of disk space, just for installing the system
<knome> OvenWerks, that's false logic though ("everybody has 4GB anyway, so we can set it as recommended")
<cub> Sure I have made all recording and mixing on my 4 GB RAM laptop. Then again, I don't use many channels or much effects
<cub> Before that I did all my recording on 1 GB RAM. That worked too. 
<zequence> 4GB is just at the limit for me, but that's for all sorts of things. Not just multimedia production
<OvenWerks> knome: yes, but recomended is based on people using at least drumgizmo
<zequence> Recommended is for being comfortable
<zequence> That's how I think of it, anyway
<OvenWerks> right
<cub> me too. As a pointer to do most of the work you can do with the distro
<cub> not to do every thinkable project
<knome> no? boo.
<knome> (:
<cub> I know. we suck.
<OvenWerks> A good drumkit is 2.5G of sample. I haven't tried drmr though it may be able to do less. Fluid can run with a lot less.
<cub> zequence, maybe nitpicking here but "The DVD image is about 2GB", it's 2.6 GB, so noone hope to fit to a 2 GB USB
<zequence> cub: Oh, yes. It has gronw
<zequence> I'll put that to 2.6GB
<OvenWerks> (fluid's drums do not sound real)
<zequence> fluid sounds a lot like a built in Yamaha synth I had in a P2 computer a long time ago
<zequence> I changed the RAM requirement, changed 2GB to 2.6GB and added that you need at least 10GB for an installation (so a 8GB stick does not do, if you were looking for that solution)
<OvenWerks> zequence: right. Drumgizmo is now in ubuntu repos... sakrecoer we should put that on the list for next cycle
<zequence> https://ubuntustudio.org/download/
<zequence> Would probably be good to have a wiki page for each cycle for stuff to add
<zequence> Let me fix that
<OvenWerks> There is no ubuntu drmr package though (aside from dobey's PPA)
<zequence> dgedit goes with drumgizmo, so adding both to the list
<OvenWerks> I don't think any drum kits come wit the package, so a link to the downlaod site would make sense too.
<zequence> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/PackageSelectionY
<OvenWerks> zequence: Thank you.
<zequence> I'm adding that page to the organization part of things. Thinking that's the best place for planning, namely feature definitions, blueprints and stuff like this
<zequence> Ok, so I ended up renaming the page. But, this is how it works
<zequence> From this page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Organization
<zequence> ..you can find a link in the side bar to this page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/PackageSelection
<zequence> ..which shows all of its subpages, which right now is only https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/PackageSelection/Y
<zequence> I know sakrecoer was just out for dinner, so he will be back shortly
<zequence> That kind of wraps things up for me, I think. I will try to put some more time on the wiki, and fix up broken stuff and clarify other things
<autumna> documentation!
 * autumna goes to read
<zequence> OvenWerks: We should probably always say why something should be added in the wiki, when suggesting it
<OvenWerks> Yes, in the case of drumgizmo, it is the most often recomended drum synth when people ask. That could of course be bias in those who normally answer...
<zequence> OvenWerks: Yep. For plugins we don't have any limit currently anyway, so that makes it simple
<OvenWerks> It used to be hydrogen, but hydrogen requires routing outside of the daw and back in
<OvenWerks> with Aroudr being able to run Jackless, that is harder to support or recomend.
<OvenWerks> DrMr would be nice to include because it uses Hydrogen drumkits.
<OvenWerks> *Ardour
<zequence> I even created some form of system for suggesting changes. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/PackageSelection/Y
<zequence> The change should be written as 'add|remove|replace package [with package] (because..)'
<zequence> Too complex? Just do it another way, in that case
<zequence> I think this stuff should be done within the first, maybe two months of development. I'm sure there's a lot more that could be changed
<zequence> I did have the idea of having two plugin packages. One which included the essentials - covering all types of plugs, but only using really great ones, and one which includes everything
<zequence> There was a similar discussion about fonts. The two are somehow similar
<zequence> Ok, that's enough for me today. I guess I'll be around
<OvenWerks> Looks good and has the explain right there.
<zequence> sakrecoer and Rosco2: usually the release manager does the announcements, but I guess we didn't work that out in detail for this release. You do as you want in the future.
<Rosco2> zequence, there was a wiki page that mentioned some roles around the release
<Rosco2> But I couldn't find it the last time I looked
<Rosco2> Found it: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/ReleaseProcedure
<Rosco2> We can redistribute the roles as required and update it
<zequence> Rosco2: Ah, I don't remember that page (think I only added the navigation to it). Must be smartboyhw who did that. Mostly copied from Ubuntu
<zequence> No link to it from any of the pages. Falls under organization rather than development
<zequence> Adding it to the sidebar for organization
<sakrecoer> sorry guys.. didn't mean to take that long.. well, reading up the backlog
<sakrecoer> hate myself for missing those last moments, but on the other hand i'm so happy it is out there!!!!
<sakrecoer> you guys!!!! YOU GUYS!!!!!!!
<sakrecoer> took good note of the wiki pages.
<sakrecoer> for the comming package changes, i will focus on the graphics and video.
<sakrecoer> really want to get that fontforge update happening
<sakrecoer> upgrade even
<sakrecoer> i might be a bit silent until monday, i have to process all this stuff, find a good moment to asnwer the beautyfull oscar speech and find that whipping lead whip i have somewhere under the dust inside my shell
 * sakrecoer types deletes types deletes types deletes
<sakrecoer> so yeah cheers y'all!! cub Rosco2 krytarik cyphermox flocculant luisbg autumna astraljava1 Noskcaj OvenenWerks knome micahg Daleksec zequence
<sakrecoer> and of course, ChanSerb and ubottu <3
<sakrecoer> Happy release and merry GNU beer!
<flocculant> :)
<cyphermox> hello?
<autumna> hello?
<autumna> and sakrecoer: :) 
<zequence> sakrecoer: Thanks!
<zequence> And, ditto
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-04-22
<OvenWerks> quiet ;)
<zequence> Today would be a good day for a release party
<zequence> More people are engaged in Ubuntu Studio social sites these days, and that gives me the impression that also more people are using it
<zequence> There's a lot more reaction when a new release is out
<cub> OvenWerks: probably post-release induced coma
<OvenWerks> cub: About what I figgured
<OvenWerks> I had a wierd thing happen with VTs, but can't get it to happen again. Basically the whole 6 VTs froze (c/a/f1-6 showed vt1 but would accept no kybd input) but X still worked and I could switch back and forth. I can't make it happen any more.
<zequence> OvenWerks: VT's?
<flocculant> tty1 etc zequence :)
<OvenWerks> zequence: vt=virtual terminal c/a/F1 to F6
<OvenWerks> I will play with it later, I logged in to the X session, c/a/F1 logged into VT, c/a/F7 took me back to the X session, logged out of that and back in ok. used c/a/F1 to get back to already logged in VT... I can see it but can not do anything in it. c/a/F2 (lets get another VT) just goes to the same VT1 logged in terminal.
<zequence> OvenWerks: One thing I've noticed recently is that it takes often longer to load a tty screen
<zequence> Like there's more happening there than before
<OvenWerks> zequence: That could be, but I have been unable to reproduce the problem since. As a note I was mucking about with directory renaming/moving/copying with sudo including my home directory (copying my home from 14.04 so my git stuff still works)
<OvenWerks> That may have been more of the problem.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-04-23
<cfhowlett> zak?  anyone?
<zequence> cfhowlett: Hi
<cfhowlett> hey zeq.  do you have the default wallpaper without the US logo?  
<zequence> cfhowlett: Yep. Let me get you a link
<zequence> Zak hasn't been involved this time around
<cfhowlett> ah!  OK
<cfhowlett> doing a tribute wallpaper cuz ... https://drive.google.com/open?id=0Bwd8hWRpQJ8DWElxOHlVNmhQbDA
<zequence> cfhowlett: Oh, right. Prince. One of the immortal ones :)
<cfhowlett> indeed
<cfhowlett> although the Purple wallpaper + Prince is quite natural
<zequence> https://cloud.mousike.me/index.php/s/PKUfFXojOmzcJTW
<cfhowlett> perfect! thanks
<zequence> np
<cfhowlett> I'll send these 2 to the flickr accout
<zequence> alright
<zequence> Renamed the package selection page for Y to yakkety, since that seems to be the new code name https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/PackageSelection/yakkety
<cfhowlett> zak vs. gnu ???  they all look the same to me ...
<zequence> I can't tell them apart either
<zequence> You mean, yak?
<cfhowlett> yak.  sorry, but yeah.
<cfhowlett> up next: zesty zebra?
<zequence> Makes me think of the movie "The Aviator", when Howard Hughes goes, "Is, thateee, is that a Yak?"
<zequence> zebra is nice graphically
<sakrecoer> thanx zequence !!
<sakrecoer> wanted to ask you how to do that!
<sakrecoer> :)
<sakrecoer> going to have to be away lots until monday, hope that i'm not undermining huge volumes of motivation for the yaketi yak party
<sakrecoer> i realy look forward to get my hands dirty on it actualy.
<sakrecoer> cfhowlett: good to read you! :)
<cfhowlett> hey hey hey sakrecoer 
<cfhowlett> I noticed that we picked up xubuntu wallpapers.  VERY nice!
<sakrecoer> :) haha! i didn't notice that
<sakrecoer> but i noticed that the folder 'backgrounds' appears as a shortcut in save as dialogues.
<sakrecoer> also that, once you pick another folder for background images, going back to 'background' the selection box is empty..
<sakrecoer> will file a bug asaic
<sakrecoer> cfhowlett: you never join #ubuntustudio-offtopic . you don't have to of course.. just making sure you know it exists
<sakrecoer> :)
<cfhowlett> ah!  will do
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer: I don't seem to be able to edit https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/PackageSelection/yakkety
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer: you may prehaps wish to add dispcalgui to graphics
<OvenWerks> It replaces the GCM group of programs (GCM = gnome color monitor)
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer: reason for replcement, GCM does not work with xfce, DisplyCAL does.
<autumna> newbie question, is there a procedure to proposing packages, or people allowed?
<sakrecoer> OvenWerks: sounds like a good idea. i'm in a train, atm but are you loging into wiki with the etherpad team option?
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer: how would I do that?
<sakrecoer> OvenWerks: join the etherpad team on launchpad :)
<OvenWerks> Oh goody :P
<sakrecoer> i don't have the url at hand, sorry..
<OvenWerks> It doesn't have to be right now, I just don't want to forget ...
<autumna> sakrecoer: this one right? https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-etherpad
<sakrecoer> autumna: i'm still a bit unsure, can you put your ideas in some textfile until monday?
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer: of course.
<autumna> of course 
<sakrecoer> \o/ 
<sakrecoer> sorry for the inconvenience... 
<autumna> guys I am not in the post release exhaustion state like rest of you, that doesn't mean I don't sympathize with the rest of you ;D
<OvenWerks> I have to get a proper text editor for 16.04...
<sakrecoer> that is kind of you autumna :) OvenWerks, don't like mousepad?
<OvenWerks> http://www.ovenwerks.net/paste/UStudio-Y-Ideas.txt sakrecoer 
<OvenWerks> mousepad is fine... for some things like ^^^, but not for others.
<autumna> OvenWerks: you are looking for something development focused?
<OvenWerks> 19306 members? (in etherpad)
<OvenWerks> autumna: I have already installed Geany, but also like a standalone editor.
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer: we just have added ubuntustudio-dev to etherpad
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer: I have applied to do this.
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer: I notice there are other teams in there already.
<autumna> OvenWerks: the reason I asked is because I have been having the same problem as well.
<OvenWerks> autumna: we used to have gedit, but I am thinking to look at what is available.
<sakrecoer> good idea, i'll sort that out asap. arriving at my station now... actualy want to sit at my computer hanging out with you ...
<sakrecoer> hehe..
<sakrecoer> read you later!! <3
<autumna> OvenWerks:  yeah. that's what I have been using interim
<autumna> bye sakrecoer
<OvenWerks> autumna: actually one of my first installs is joe. (cli editor)
<autumna> *goes to check*
<autumna> ah
<autumna> this is quite nice, but yeah I am personally looking for something lightweight with a gui
<OvenWerks> autumna: I don't want emacs :)
<autumna> I don't think emacs qualifies as lightweight
<OvenWerks> easy to use either...
<autumna> well among the console based options
<OvenWerks> autumna: maybe you like VI with a GUI?
 * autumna is not a VI person
<autumna> ;D
<OvenWerks> :P
<autumna> no seriously I firmly fall into the emacs side of that old argument ;D
<autumna> I tried bracket. 
<autumna> its pretty, but I don't know, felt a bit sluggish?
<OvenWerks> I don't like either. (which is why I have joe
<autumna> *nods*. I think I'll stick to mousepad for now, until I find something that fits
 * OvenWerks is installing a few from synaptic (no snaps that way)
 * OvenWerks doesn't like tea (the editor)
<OvenWerks> Juffed has just shown me a file where the foreground and background colours are the same :(
<OvenWerks> editra looks nice (so far)
<autumna> that's entertaining (re juffed) *goes to try those ones
<autumna> juffed looks like it is crashing
<OvenWerks> NEdit crashes.
<autumna> (I am off to dinner but will check the log when I get back)
 * OvenWerks has set editra as his default text editor... for now.
<autumna> back
<OvenWerks> autumna: I am going to try editra for now, if it gives trouble I will probably just put gedit in.
<autumna> *nods*
<autumna> I migth try to run gedit again, it was bugging out for me in 14.04 but then again, my previous install had its own issues
<knome> OvenWerks, what's wrong with mousepad?
<OvenWerks> autumna: I used gedit all through 14.04 with no problems.
<autumna> it worked.. just sometimes it would take 2 tries to start it.. as I said my install was in bad shape so chances are it had to do with it
<OvenWerks> knome: nothing for quick use, For coding it is nice to have the colour coding, bracket finding, tabbing that goes with that.
<OvenWerks> knome: I have not removed mousepad
<knome> OvenWerks, mousepad supports syntax highlighting and matching brackets
<knome> and autoindent
<OvenWerks> knome: I wasn't seeing it in the quick test file I opened
<autumna> OverWerks: I did see syntax highlighting on my shellscript
<autumna> although maybe the default theme doesn't have it?
<knome> i'm a former gedit user myself, now using mousepad because why not
<autumna> mousepad is quite good. I am looking for something with folder view but isn't a full fledged IDE for javascript projects through
<autumna> pity juffEd is crashing, because that looked like in the exact ballpark
<OvenWerks> knome: The default setup for mousepad makes it look very minimal.
<knome> OvenWerks, yeah
<OvenWerks> knome the bracket highlighting is not what I want... have to try some different colours I think (bold does not stand out as much as a different colour would.
<OvenWerks> clasic colour is better that kate.
<knome> OvenWerks, if you want a different colorscheme, look into "gtksourceview" theming, it's simple enough you can get your mods in in 10 minutes
<knome> OvenWerks, i don't know if studio is shipping those, but i did light/dark xubuntu themes
<OvenWerks> knome: The stock list under view has probably enough.
<OvenWerks> Trying cobalt now.
<knome> i didn't like any of those, but it's a personal preference anyway :)
<OvenWerks> solarized colours are ok too.
<OvenWerks> knome: mouse pad has come a long way. My last really good look at it was right after it came out I think. Xubuntu had leappad the version before.
<OvenWerks> (I think)
<autumna> hehe
<autumna> I need to lookup how to add custom themes into everything
<OvenWerks> knome: how easy is it to change the system defaults for mousepad? Without changing the package itself)
<knome> yeah, we used leafpad for a moment since there was something wrong with mousepad
<knome> system defaults for mousepad? hmm, that's a good question
<knome> we are doing that outside the mousepad package
<knome> so if studio wants to do something similar, will work
<OvenWerks> knome: I'm not sure what would be best, but something wich shows known source files with some colour so the first time user knows it has extra functions I think.
<OvenWerks> txt files the way they is fine.
<OvenWerks> Basically set the clasic colour theme would do it I think.
<OvenWerks> If a user knows the stuff is there they will look through the settings if they don't like what colours are used.
<OvenWerks> knome: Which package is xubuntu using to set mousepad defaults?
<OvenWerks> (I don't see it in -default-settings)
<autumna> brb
<autumna> back
<knome> OvenWerks, xubuntu-artwork
<OvenWerks> knome: I would have never thought to look there :)
<knome> mmh, it's a bit weird i guess
<OvenWerks> knome: now that I have looked at it, I understand.
<knome> :)
<OvenWerks> These are not mousepad setting, but system settings that affect how mousepad looks.
<knome> yep
<OvenWerks> knome: I can't even find where mousepad keeps it's user config. .config/Mousepad/ has the keyboard accel, but not the settings.
<zequence> sakrecoer: To rename a page, use the dropdown menu for the page. It only shows when you are not editing
<zequence> sakrecoer: knome: we should probably make our team ubuntustudio-documentation a moderated team and add that to the etherpad team
<zequence> That way we can control ourselves who gets access to the wiki, which should be all moderated teams
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-04-24
<zequence> OvenWerks: FYI, I turned your three lines about GCM vs dispcalgui into one line. Seems like that whole thing is one single change
<zequence> Think that's correct, right?
<OvenWerks> zequence: yes
#ubuntustudio-devel 2018-04-16
<metalbiker> i think a nice feature to have in the DE for studio is to include the ability to have icons only panels (no big window buttons like you generally see but have it as an option)
<OvenWerks> metalbiker: I'm not sure what you mean.
<metalbiker> ovenwerks: hey. i just got back to my desk.
<metalbiker> ovenwerks: let me try to explain a bit better
<metalbiker> you know how when you open a program and you get that window bubble in the panel? 
<metalbiker> KDE plasma has a feature that allows you to have an icons only task manager/panel. it just shows the icon of the open program and not the whole button bubble/whatever it's called these days. lol
<metalbiker> just a neat feature to cut down on clutter.
<OvenWerks> You mean the icon without the program name?
<OvenWerks> uncheck show button labels?
<OvenWerks> settings manager->Panel->Items.... select window buttons and then the little gear in the right side panel. The setup window for window buttons opens... the first button is Show button labels
<OvenWerks> I would suggest: A) you would also want to make the panel bigger so you can see the icons better. B) you would want the panel on the side rather than the top so that after you make it bigger it doesn't take up as much room :)
<metalbiker> YES! exactly that! so that option's already there? jeez, if i'd already known. i guess i should've tried it out first. thanks for letting me know!
<metalbiker> ok, now i've got to leave. ugh. appointments suck.
<ErichEickmeyer> OH snap... https://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2018/04/ubuntu-studio-plans-to-reboot
<OvenWerks> ErichEickmeyer: Whatever, I was going to reply to one of the comments, but it wants yet another login... aparently my ubuntu login is not good enough
<ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks: Yeah. This is the kind of attention we need, but it's a little quicker than I was expecting. I do my best not to read the comments, btw. Comments on those sites can range from good to not so good to downright trollish.
<krytarik> "Itâd be great to see the likes of VLC, Kdenlive and Entangle join the list of tools." - yes ok, two of those are actually there...
<krytarik> And we are a "distort" now! :P
<ErichEickmeyer> Gotta love spell check. :P
<sakrecoer> krytarik: haha yes, one can wonder if OMG ubuntu ever tries what they write about when it comes to US, but hey: this way it will look like we delivered their wildest dreams!!! :)
<sakrecoer> other than that: excellent job animating the comments ont that page ErichEickmeyer !!
<sakrecoer> OvenWerks: it's really good to see you still tinkering and experimenting <3
<sakrecoer> oh! and eylul is back in the channel too! \o/ very nice wallpaper and glad to know you here to transmitt that good vibe legacy!
<krytarik> sakrecoer: First of all, didn't expect YOU being the one having pinged me now! :D  And second, nah they do this on ALL flavors.. :P
<sakrecoer> haha :D not sure if reassured or amused. but both are ok feelings!
<sakrecoer> krytarik: ^
<sakrecoer> (the second point that is)
<krytarik> I wouldn't use either of those terms for this actually - but more like "happily surprised" :)
<krytarik> Ah ok, then yeah, but I'd go with the first option then. :P
<sakrecoer> :D <3
<sakrecoer> i'm hoping i might be able to check in more often now. so hopefully, there will be less of the  "surprises" element while the "happy" remains stable :)
<krytarik> Yeah, believe with less weight on your shoulders, it should be easier to look by without feeling an obligation to also do all the things. :)
<sakrecoer> <3 something along those lines. it also seems the universe is aligning on the other elements that were holding me back. superstitions aside, i'll touch some wood, salt my back and draw an X in the roof for it :D
<sakrecoer> basically, i got a new job and so a potentially whole new day-today may happen. I'll work 60-80% without having to starve for it... "Time might be money, but money ain't creating no time"
<krytarik> Yes, I see it the same. :)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2018-04-17
<slidinghorn> Out of curiosity, is there anything holding US back from using Cadence & Carla?
<ErichEickmeyer> sakrecoer: Good to see you on here for that short amount of time I was getting my son from school. XD
<ErichEickmeyer> sakrecoer: Along the lines of what I just read, are you going to have time to do the release or should I get a crash course in release management?
<ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks: Anything we should know about bug 1761887?
<ubottu> bug 1761887 in qjackctl (Ubuntu) "indicator dropdown menu requires two clicks to operate." [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1761887
<ErichEickmeyer> slidinghorn: Is there any chance you'd be interested in doing documentation, fixing the wiki, etc.?
<slidinghorn> Sure - just let me know what to fix :)
<ErichEickmeyer> Cool. Really, the stuff Holstein was mentioning (update, don't delete), and just a lot of clean-up and updating. Specifically for that page, I know we need to get rid of the part about adding the KXStudio repo and just link to the instructions on the KXStudio website, or get rid of that section altogether.
<slidinghorn> btw I responded to Set's email on the list confirming that it was me signing up on the web team - I haven't seen my email come through though
<ErichEickmeyer> slidinghorn: Cool. I just checked and it looks like you're on there. You should be able to go to ubuntustudio.org/wp_admin and log-in using your Ubuntu account.
<slidinghorn> ErichEickmeyer: still shows pending
<ErichEickmeyer> Huh. Could be that sakrecoer just hasn't pushed the button yet/seen the email reply.
<krytarik> Give the poor dudes like us in Europe some rest.. :P
<ErichEickmeyer> krytarik: Why? ;)
<krytarik> Some might be following a more usual day schedule.. :P
<ErichEickmeyer> Yeah, I was kidding. I totally get the need for rest. As someone with a likely sleep disorder, I wholeheartedly endorse sleep.
<krytarik> I mean for quite a while now, I myself didn't follow that at all, then a few days ago it suddenly jumped to be better, then in the other direction, and right now it's slipping in the opposite again. :P
<krytarik> Also, regardless of this, the mail by now was sent just a bit more like an hour ago.
<krytarik> Personally, even thinking of mail, I wouldn't expect nearly immediate response and action.
<ErichEickmeyer> krytarik: Well, of course not.
<ErichEickmeyer> Get some sleep. :)
<krytarik> Yes, in fact I wanted to be sleeping for like 3 hours now already. :P
<eylul> *quickly catches up to the log and heads to sleep*
<krytarik> Ugh, same for you then.. :D
<eylul> :)
<eylul> really through. read you guys tomorrow. :)
<krytarik> "tomorrow" ;D
<krytarik> But yeah, I prefer to use the term nevertheless then too. :P
<krytarik> Btw, all of you newcomers, we got an -offtopic channel too. :)
<ErichEickmeyer> krytarik: I think I knew that at one point. Well, I'm there now. :)
<tarzeau> not sure, but did i ever ask you guys to add: schismtracker, protracker, milkytracker, goattracker, and grafx2?
<tarzeau> i also have a package of hivelytracker, but it's not in debian/ubuntu yet...
<tarzeau> the name studio is irritating, it's not just for audio creatives, right?
<tarzeau> if so, maybe also add: fonts-league-spartan and fonts-blankenburg, fonts-comfortaa, fonts-opendin
<OvenWerks> tarzeau: Studio was never meant to be every possible artistic tool available under the sun.
<OvenWerks> tarzeau: painters, film makes and other work in "Studios" too.
<OvenWerks> tarzeau: if you wish to see X software included in Studio, can you tell us what it does and what workflow it fills that is not already filled or why it is better than the software included that already supports that workflow. That is make a case for its inclusion that goes beyond "you should".
<SlidingHorn> so something broke in the past 2 days or so :/  My keyboard no longer responds/is detected, and XFCE doesn't finish loading...no panel, etc.
<SlidingHorn> I can get my keyboard to respond if I load the regular (not the low-latency) kernel...XFCE panel still doesn't load though...
<ErichEickmeyer> Oh wow. Bionic or Artful?
<ErichEickmeyer> And can you boot from a live ISO?
<SlidingHorn> bionic...suddenly there were 140 updates, and I'm rebooting now to see if something in there was the fix
<ErichEickmeyer> Hopefully, otherwise it's stop the presses. I wonder if the Xubuntu guys are on top of it if it's Xfce related.
<SlidingHorn> panel still isn't loading...I don't see anything obvious in my Xorg or syslog files
<ErichEickmeyer> Yikes.
<ErichEickmeyer> Try a live ISO. If your config got corrupted this could happen. Also, I've noticed that symptom in Virtualbox, but passed it off as VBox being buggy.
<ErichEickmeyer> Live ISOs boot on my bare metal just fine.
<SlidingHorn> I'll download a new one
<SlidingHorn> should I just grab the beta2 or is there a daily somewhere I should get?
<SlidingHorn> grabbing the daily.  Now that I think about it though, I had to use a different keyboard to install, because the installer didn't recognize mine for some reason (it's a Corsair K95 RGB)
<ErichEickmeyer> I'd get the daily, since it has a problem with the installer fixed.
<ErichEickmeyer> Does your keyboard take some kindof weird driver?
<SlidingHorn> It worked after installation, but the installer itself wouldn't power it
<ErichEickmeyer> Strange.
<SlidingHorn> I did end up downloading a 3rd party driver for it though in order to get the RGB stuff working (ckb-next - https://github.com/ckb-next/ckb-next/ )
<SlidingHorn> I can boot into a live ISO and the panel loads...
<ErichEickmeyer> Sweet. So, probably a config issue with the panel in your install.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2018-04-18
<SlidingHorn> yeah I'm looking at it.  I noticed that deleting a .desktop entry for a discord appimage got it to at least load a workspace indicator and clock, but that's it so far...
<ErichEickmeyer> Huh. At some point, I'd consider deleting the entire .config folder and starting over.
<SlidingHorn> ErichEickmeyer: should I just rm -rf ~/.config/* ?
<ErichEickmeyer> Thatâs what I would do, mostly as a last resort.
<SlidingHorn> I think I'm going to have to - I can't find anything that seems relevant in any of the logs
<SlidingHorn> even that didn't work...just going to reinstall :/
<SlidingHorn> weird....so panel didn't show, etc.  I hit ctrl+alt+t and while no terminal showed up, I noticed my cursor went to a text cursor.  typed "sudo shutdown -h now" then my password, and it shut down.
<SlidingHorn> ...and now that I powered up, everything is back.
<SlidingHorn> wth??
<SlidingHorn> system program problem...it appears to be generating a bug report for me...
<SlidingHorn> bug 1764916
<ubottu> Error: Launchpad bug 1764916 could not be found
<SlidingHorn> oh, it made it private
<ErichEickmeyer> It will typically make a private bug report unless multiple people experience the same problem.
<krytarik> Not really.
<ErichEickmeyer> TBH, I've totally forgotten why/when it does that.
<tarzeau> OvenWerks: ok. well the mentioned things, are mostly demoscene music trackers, and grafx2 is a deluxe paint clone
<tarzeau> nothing overwheliming, notvery large in space occupation, but nice to have
<sakrecoer> You should be in the team now SlidingHorn :) sorry for the delay. 
<sakrecoer> ErichEickmeyer: i'm not sure i'll be able to help with the release. So to avoid being vague about it: consider me out of the equation this time. It's not so hard just time consuming. However, maybe very maybe i'Ãll be able to join in the effort. If so, rest assured i wont interfer, just do what ever you guys could need me to do. :)
<sakrecoer> Welcome tarzeau ! The best shot to get stuff included is to offer your help packaging and mainting the desired piece of software. Then again, like OvenWerks says: it's a good idea to make case for it in order to have everyone in agreement :) 
<sakrecoer> As for the Studio part of the distro name, it's fairly common to call the office of a designe agency a Studio. Pretty sure it applies to photography and film too. 
<sakrecoer> tarzeau: I'm glad to see a fellow tracker in here! :) I can't claim any fame or succesfull release with it. But fasttracker II is what led me to digital music production back in the days. I've tride milky tracker, but i'm looking forward to try the other ones you suggest
<sakrecoer> really good to see all this activity in here! \o/
<sakrecoer> I'm might get disconnected need to do some spring cleaning in my shell. :)
<sakrecoer> read y'all later!
<tarzeau> sakrecoer: i'm already packaging and maintaining mentioned software
<tarzeau> sakrecoer: :) did you know there's the ft2 clone ?
<tarzeau> sakrecoer: which has its own irc channel, and it's actively developped (releases only macos/windows at the moment) but come buggerer 8bitguy to release it and have it in linux too!
#ubuntustudio-devel 2018-04-20
<SlidingHorn> um...is it a bug that gksu isn't installed nor in the repos?
<krytarik> You can thank jbicha for this - no, it isn't.
<SlidingHorn> have a link or something for an explanation?
<SlidingHorn> also, is that across Bionic, or is it just for Studio?
<krytarik> LP #1740618, and every flavor yes.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1740618 in umit (Ubuntu) "Remove gksu from Ubuntu" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1740618
<SlidingHorn> krytarik: so is it no longer appropriate to call on users to use (for example)  gksu gedit /admin/config/file/here ? and instead use a regular sudo w/ gedit?
<krytarik> Bare 'sudo' is still wrong, no.
<krytarik> "pkexec mousepad [file]" would work in our case though - since we ship a rules for it with our default settings package.
<OvenWerks> SlidingHorn: use pkexec program
<OvenWerks> But I think that is not considered proper either... basically the thought is that no GUI code should ever run as root. Wayland enforces this (if the user wants it or not)
<OvenWerks> this is the problem with most new software install programs which have the GUI in userland and install in systemland...
<OvenWerks> synaptic (old school) ran the GUI in root too.
<SlidingHorn> OvenWerks: so it's essentially forcing users to edit configuration files via CLI?
<OvenWerks> No, it requires running a daemon as root and communicating with that daemon from the GUI.
<OvenWerks> With todays software you are correct though
<OvenWerks> ubuntustudio-controls is going through a change from gui as root to gui as user sends info to root program.
<OvenWerks> An editor could be made that has gui in user land and file save in root.
<krytarik> It would seem the example of "admin:///etc/default/" doesn't work in Thunar, does it?
<OvenWerks> In theory, the editor would open the file as it does now in userspace and when it went to save it and found out it did not have the permition to do so, would ask for the right password in a dialog with the right warning and save as root (or other account)
<krytarik> (I meant to say "rules file" there fwiw, but dropped it for one reason or another..  That's what pkexec requires to work on GUI apps - and most don't ship it yet still.)
<krytarik> And tbh, circumventing that by navigating with the file browser to 'admin://' doesn't seem a particularly great idea to me either.
<SlidingHorn> ugh...having the problem w/ XFCE not fully loading again
<SlidingHorn> I'm trying to troubleshoot in #xfce, but I've never had much luck there
<krytarik> Tbh, I don't think I've ever seen you there before either..
<SlidingHorn> It's very rare that I go in, lol
<OvenWerks> There are probably more xfce people in #xubuntu...
<SlidingHorn> I'll head there...though I think they're gonna send me to +1 or studio
<krytarik> Hardly.
 * OvenWerks is trying MATE for the first time... Installing on spare partition.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2018-04-21
<krytarik> ErichEickmeyer: "we have to release a RC, but I simply don't know how exactly that's done" - that'd be the final release then of course, the RC images are due to be spun sometime tomorrow probably, then it's the same as on the recent final beta really - just preferably mark the images ready ourselves this time.. :P
<ErichEickmeyer> krytarik: Ross did the final beta. I can't repeat the process unless i know the process to begin with.
<krytarik> The only that Ross did there really is to call for testing on the mailing list.
<krytarik> Erm, dropping words today - thing!
<ErichEickmeyer> Either way, I didn't do it, and neither Ross nor sakrecoer are available for the RC, Ross has announced he won't be available and I've been told by sakrecoer to assume that he won't be available for the release.
<SlidingHorn> Had to clear my ~/.config/xfce/ again.  I'll have to go piece by piece and see where it's breaking :/
<ErichEickmeyer> SlidingHorn: You're not having much luck, my friend.
<SlidingHorn> it's been a rough couple days, lol
<krytarik> The only other things that come to mind now are: 1.) release notes, and 2.) release announcement on the website.
<ErichEickmeyer> So, there's nothing I have to do to declare a certain daily build the release?
<krytarik> You don't just go and declare some random image the release..
 * SlidingHorn takes off his blindfold and puts darts down
<krytarik> That's what the upcoming RCs are for.
<ErichEickmeyer> Yeah, I figured that. But a daily has to become a RC, does it not?
<krytarik> Yeah, sure - when the release team decides it.
<ErichEickmeyer> This release team? https://launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-release
<krytarik> And the release notes should definitely be in place or close to when the release happens - the announcement is entirely at our own discretion.
<krytarik> No, the Ubuntu one.
<ErichEickmeyer> Okay, that works.
<krytarik> I.e. the ones that are sitting in #ubuntu-release
<ErichEickmeyer> Gotcha. I'm in communication with them, so I'm sure they'll be pinging myself or sakrecoer.
<ErichEickmeyer> As far as release notes, I am unaware of anything that needs to be in there.
<ErichEickmeyer> I have an idea.
<krytarik> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtfulAardvark/ReleaseNotes/UbuntuStudio - LOL, apparently the last time neither. :P
<krytarik> Generally, apart from any changes we did, what should be put there is known issues though.
<ErichEickmeyer> I just sent an email to the list in case anyone knows anything that should be included.
<SlidingHorn> ErichEickmeyer: If I figure out exactly what's breaking on my system, I'll obviously share asap
<ErichEickmeyer> SlidingHorn: That would be good. The folks in #xubuntu might want to know as well since, if it's Xfce, it affects them as well.
<ErichEickmeyer> And, clearly, your issues are very Xfce-specific.
<SlidingHorn> I asked in there around 7:30
<OvenWerks> SlidingHorn: is this 18.04 xfce? 16.04 has been very stable for me.
<OvenWerks> having Installed MATE... first complaint is the theme... which window has focus? I don't know, if there is no flashing curser I can't tell :P
<OvenWerks> grabbing the half pixel wide side/bottom/corner handles is almost impossible too.
<OvenWerks> Apparently the file manager is called Caja... it would be nice if the menu said caja (file manager)
<OvenWerks> I have two panels by default, one on the top and one on the bottom, I guess like gnome2 desktops had.
<krytarik> Does it say just "Files" too? :P
<OvenWerks> no it just says caja. How am I supposed to know that is a file manager
<krytarik> Heh..
<OvenWerks> Files at least makes sense even if I don't know the program name, I know what it probably does.
<krytarik> Yep, indeed.
<OvenWerks> The two panels top and bottom probably made sense back when we had 4X5 aspect ratio... but not any more.
<ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks: If this is Ubuntu MATE, open the MATE Tweak app. Check the different layouts.
<OvenWerks> Hmm, ""Brisk Menu" has quit unexpectedly"
<ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks: Yeah, known bug unfortunately. 
<ErichEickmeyer> Fortunately, there are other menus that can be used instead.
<SlidingHorn> OvenWerks: it's the 18.04 Studio XFCE yes...
<OvenWerks> ErichEickmeyer: the panel layouts seem to get worse. I think I shall have to make my own
<ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks: Well, at least you can.
<OvenWerks> ya, I can, don't know where that leaves the newby.
<OvenWerks>   ;)
<ErichEickmeyer> Yeah. This is probably one reason why tsimonq2 says a Qt-based desktop is easier to maintain.
<OvenWerks> AH, I was about to ask what the desktop text editor was called... seems to be Pluma
<krytarik> !
<OvenWerks> It sort of makes sense... if anyone is two hundred years old they probably used a "plum" for writing...
<SlidingHorn> What would y'all think of a WM without a full DE?
<OvenWerks> The icon was good enough anyway.
<OvenWerks> fvwm?
<OvenWerks> motif?
<SlidingHorn> kinda helps keep the "streamlined" and "getting out of the way" philosophy (or at lease my understanding of it) with Studio
<SlidingHorn> I'm an i3/i3 gaps guy, but that's probably not going to fly with an Ubuntu release
<OvenWerks> SlidingHorn: if I was going to go wm only, I would probably go fvwm... or openbox or something
<SlidingHorn> I do love openbox
<SlidingHorn> I'd be more than happy to spend the next several months setting up a theme for the release if we went that way
<OvenWerks> hmm, I did something right, I got and old 95 style menu...
<ErichEickmeyer> SlidingHorn: One of the thigns we're looking at is theming as well, so have at it!
<ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks: The Redmond layout?
<SlidingHorn> OvenWerks: noice.
<OvenWerks> I don't think it was... the redmond layout is win 8ish
<OvenWerks> Says traditional
 * OvenWerks can't spell even looking at the word across the screen...
<SlidingHorn> after I figure out where I'm breaking the current setup, I'll start breaking down Studio to an Openbox setup and play with it
<OvenWerks> Thats what lubuntu used to be based on. It felt incomplete to me.
<OvenWerks> Ah, found focus follows mouse... it's called: Select windows when the mouse moves over them.
<OvenWerks> they have a menu editor (Oh no!)
 * OvenWerks has had bad experiences with menu editors
<ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks: Careful going down that rabbit hole.
<SlidingHorn> That's one nice thing about openbox is that the menu is just XML
<OvenWerks> SlidingHorn: thats one bad thing about openbox... it doesn't honor XDG
<ErichEickmeyer> SlidingHorn: I'd say the menu being XML is also its weakness.
 * SlidingHorn just likes it because it's simple
<OvenWerks> honouring xdg means a new app just shows up in the menu.
<ErichEickmeyer> Yeah, but not simple for non-technical people.
<OvenWerks> and xdg menu files are pretty much xdg.
<SlidingHorn> ErichEickmeyer: I'm a relatively non-technical guy
<OvenWerks> unfortunately, all /etc/xdg/menus/menuconfig files are broken except for KDE's and Studio's
<ErichEickmeyer> My wife would look at an XML file and go... ????
<OvenWerks> my wife looks at the menu and it works... no files
<ErichEickmeyer> ^That.
<SlidingHorn> so where do we find the sweet spot between compliance, ease of use, stability, and overall speed?
<ErichEickmeyer> And that is the question that every Linux user has been trying to answer since KDE was first released back in the 1990s.
<OvenWerks> Not sure I like the selection of themes. it does say get more themes online, but I am assuming the ones included are known not to have "issues"
<OvenWerks> "Blue-Submarine" for now I guess.
<ErichEickmeyer> It should be able to take any GTK3 theme.
<krytarik> That statement is hilarious in itself. :P
<OvenWerks> window border to "WinMe" is almost fresh... (by comparison)
<OvenWerks> Downloaded CDEtheme installed... older than win3, looks wonderful :)
<OvenWerks> Ok, I will try installing Studio on top.
<OvenWerks> hmm, my backdrop just changed. I don't think I set it to do that ???
<flocculant> ErichEickmeyer: as far as release goes - you get all your ducks lined up - eg release notes (which they will ask for) and images marked as ready on the iso.tracker (do that yourself) and the rest will just fall into place.
<flocculant> as far as marking ready - if you've not got perms and no-one else is around to do that - ping me, I'm in iso tracker admin group should be able to mark your images ready
<flocculant> the idea is to not have the main release team chasing anyone unless they want to - they've more than enough to do
<flocculant> ErichEickmeyer: looks to me like you're in the right team on LP to have the perms 
<ErichEickmeyer> flocculant: Thanks! I appreciate the advice!
<flocculant> no problem :)
<flocculant> I'll hang about in channel till release is done 
<ErichEickmeyer> Cool. I appreciate it.
<egildon> Hello all! :-)
<OvenWerks> I expect to be around for the meeting... but family may decide lets go "there"...
<OvenWerks> Further notes on MATE... 
<OvenWerks> It does seem to have lots of ways it can be set up. Our menu does work provided the system configuration file is fixed. (the fix is merely in order so that overrides happen last instead of before the system imposes itself)
<OvenWerks> The panel setting GUI for MATE could learn from XFCE, in particular, XFCE has one settings window that includes all panels rather than having to access a setting applet from each panel.
<OvenWerks> The xfce panel settings also shows a list of things it includes making it easy to change their order, see what they are called, and change each applets settings all from one place.
<OvenWerks> I have not yet found a resonable theme. The CDEtheme doews not affect the title of the window... and really, I am probably one of very few who might like it.
<OvenWerks> Of the themes that come with MATE, the nice looking ones, make getting actual work done difficult for someone who uses lots of windows it is hard to follow which window has focus. Focus follows mouse (which is not defualt) helps some. The two themes that have good contrasting window titles for focus, are blinding bright and leave a terminal window almost unreadable.
<OvenWerks> Finding a theme that is both "modern" in look and useful for work has not been easy.
<ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks: Arc should work on MATE.
<krytarik> OvenWerks: I'm slowly getting the impression that your needs are special. :P
<eylul> here for the meeting
<captain-tux_> Hi!
<ErichEickmeyer> Hello!
<krytarik> Similarly.
<ErichEickmeyer> Yep! So we have myself, krytarik, eylul, captain-tux_, and OvenWerks was here, but dunno if he still is.
<eylul> :)
<eylul> hello
<ErichEickmeyer> Cool! Well, let's get this started.
<ErichEickmeyer> eylul: I guess we have to delay the wallpaper due to sponsorship reasons. No big deal as I recall from the last meeting.
<eylul> not at all, the wallpaper is there. it actually gives me time to get a couple of color variations out for it in orange and purple
<eylul> and perhaps propose some extra wallpapers
<ErichEickmeyer> Yep. I like that idea.
<ErichEickmeyer> Did everybody see OvenWerks's notes above about MATE?
<eylul> *nods*
<ErichEickmeyer> Seems like his needs are very niche, though, so I'm not so sure they'd apply to new users.
<eylul> I do remember when trying mate feeling restricted. so I would say partially
<ErichEickmeyer> Cool.
<eylul> window theme is something to tackle independently, that I think can be a good challenge for us. *has some thoughts on it regarding XFCE side. no idea how to theme for gnome based DEs through*
<ErichEickmeyer> Tbh, Xfce simply uses GTK2, GNOME/MATE use GTK3. Should be fairly similar.
<eylul> oh ok cool
<ErichEickmeyer> Any GTK2 theme works on Xfce. However, with GTK3 being the new(er) hotness, we're bound to see GTK2 themes becoming fewer in numbers as time goes on.
<eylul> *nods* well assuming our default DE will be xfce at least for 18.10 
<eylul> my thought is to design around limitations of XFCE, and then... well it should be adaptable to gtk3 based systems. anyhow.. things to think about after release pile ;)
<ErichEickmeyer> Yeah. We can table it for now.
<ErichEickmeyer> So, any further old business from anyone?
<OvenWerks> I is here.
<OvenWerks> sorry to be late.
<eylul> not from me :)
<ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks: No worries. See everything discussed so far?
<OvenWerks> There were a number of people who suggested MATE. I am kind of wondering what tings in MATE they found attractive...
<ErichEickmeyer> Probably functionality more than anything, and it's familiar.
<OvenWerks> So far, I think I would prefer ubuntu Vanilla to MATE. I do not know if I can really stand behind XFCE for any other reason than it is familiar and so I know how to set it up quickly
<OvenWerks> ErichEickmeyer: I would ask for a more comprehensive answer than that as I am so far not seeing this functionality
<eylul> welcome/software center. polish (aesthethic wise), existence of some form of wacom gui were the reasons for me. and it does seem to have active support, comparing to xfce that is more slowly developed.
<eylul> wacom gui as far as I know is in general available in gnome too.
<ErichEickmeyer> eylul: Yeah, the welcome & software boutique is appealing, but even Ubuntu Budgie has that (which they forked from Ubuntu MATE). It can be used in any DE.
<eylul> *nods*
<ErichEickmeyer> So, I would consider that a separate topic than the DE, to be honest.
<OvenWerks> Ok, that is good to know. I am sure I could learn to set MATE up. For me the polish is not really more than skin deep and it interferes (for me) with using the applications which is what I have a computer for after all.
<ErichEickmeyer> Yeah, that makes sense. Basically, for 18.10 as far as desktop environment, we need to ask two questions: 1) Is there a compelling reason to change default DE, 2) Which additional DE do we add first.
<eylul> I would ask the question of where XFCE fails and where it does well
<OvenWerks> yes!
<ErichEickmeyer> Yes.
<OvenWerks> and the same with other DEs
<ErichEickmeyer> Which is why we're testing the waters, as it were.
<OvenWerks> What do they add and what do they subract
<eylul> because ideally we don't want to lose aspects that do well. for me biggest issue with xfce is lack of settings, lack of wacom, and sometimes not quite as good at HIDPI screens. 
<ErichEickmeyer> Agreed. Only GNOME Shell, MATE, and Plasma do HiDPI as of 18.04.
 * OvenWerks finds MATE has lack of settings... or harder to set.
<eylul> it does well with low resource requirement and being very stable and easy to customize to a point (although lack of widgets is sad) lack of wacom interface is a drawback (although existing guis are pretty basic too)
<OvenWerks> MATE is easier to set up a nice menu with than Screen/Vanila
<ErichEickmeyer> MATE is also easier to customize in terms of appletts than Gnome Shell, since all customizations are done with extensions in Shell. 
<OvenWerks> Though I never use it (monitors are only 900 pix high) I would consider dealing with HIDPI a priority.
<ErichEickmeyer> That to say, it's easier to make default layouts in MATE than Gnome Shell.
<eylul> *nods at ovenwerks*
<ErichEickmeyer> Honestly, from a photography and graphics design perspective, HiDPI needs to be a priority.
<OvenWerks> gnome shell is anti panel/menu so far as I can tell.
<eylul> OvenWerks: that's my primary issue with gnome shell but again that might be a personal choice
<ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks: This is true, which is why it would have to be up to the end user to customize it to their liking using https://extensions.gnome.org.
<eylul> another thing to consider that I think kde gets closest to deal with is..
<eylul> workspaces
<OvenWerks> ErichEickmeyer: I would consider it a requirement to include any extensions needed to get a usable environment.
<eylul> I absolutely love KDE's activities. and being able to bind them to time tracker (hamster) although it requires a fair bit of well hacking to do so :)
<ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks: Unfortunately, if you look at Dieder Roche's blog from this past year, doing that requires forking individual extensions, renaming them, and making packages for each one.
<OvenWerks> eylul: kde activities: what is the memory use like?
<eylul> at some point I had something like 6
<ErichEickmeyer> As a Plasma user myself, memory use of plasma is much lower than Gnome SHELL.
<eylul> didn't notice anything but then again...
<eylul> gaming laptop
<OvenWerks> ErichEickmeyer: so maybe we should consider gnomesession as something to save for later.
<ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks: I would say that we could go for it, but I wouldn't make it the first additional DE.
<eylul> gnome shell's adventage is.. the amount of development and support it is getting
<OvenWerks> ErichEickmeyer: I was thinking not of plasma, but when activities are used.
<ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks: Activities are nothing more than customizable workspaces. It's the same as adding a virtual workspace.
<OvenWerks> My understanding is that activities each have their own setup.
<ErichEickmeyer> Yes, but not a new instance of Plasma Shell for each one.
<OvenWerks> ok.
<eylul> they have their own background, and name but yeah
<eylul> they don't have, for example saparate menu bars.
<OvenWerks>  so the only real problem with plasma is not dealing properly with window stacking hints.
<eylul> (I wish)
<eylul> *nods*
<OvenWerks> (and the audio applet is painful for any complex audio setup)
<ErichEickmeyer> Honestly, that's not a complete deal breaker as that varies according to the task management widget used.
<OvenWerks> most DEs (even fvwm) allow different backdrops per workspace
<OvenWerks> ErichEickmeyer: we would want to choose the right one as default :)
<ErichEickmeyer> Agreed, and that's something that can actually be done.
<ErichEickmeyer> And I've never had a problem with the audio widget, especially since it was simplified.
<ErichEickmeyer> Anyhow... we can table this discussion since it will be ongoing.
<OvenWerks> ErichEickmeyer: try it with something like a ice1712 based card
<eylul> I do have some more observations on KDE (e.g. file viewer in some ways have better features for images, but XFCE's thunar actually is a lot more reliable when importing files from a mobile phone using mts) the image viewer is able to handle slightly larger images on xfce, KDE side it handles more types. KDE file viewer can preview raws. *shuts up*
<ErichEickmeyer> LOL
<eylul> *pointedly shuts up*
<ErichEickmeyer> Yeah, I do like Dolphin.
<ErichEickmeyer> ANYHOW....
<eylul> :) 
<OvenWerks> eylul: as we are purposely adding many gtk applications, having both versions of file manager is not a problem
<ErichEickmeyer> We should move on. We could talk DE all day, but since it's an 18.10 thing, we should table it for now.
<OvenWerks> k
<eylul> Ovenwerks I have things to say on that. after the meeting :)))
<OvenWerks> release. I think that when xubuntu is ready we are...
<ErichEickmeyer> On to new business: I only saw the one item is a bug report OvenWerks filed (bug 1761887), which isn't a blocker bug by any means. Also, I was unable to duplicate.
<ubottu> bug 1761887 in qjackctl (Ubuntu) "indicator dropdown menu requires two clicks to operate." [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1761887
<ErichEickmeyer> So, that might be in the release notes.
<OvenWerks> not worth persuing. Rui is unlikely to spend any time on it.
<ErichEickmeyer> Yeah. Might even be considered a "wishlist" item for that reason.
<OvenWerks> This problem has been there since at least 16.04 (since Rui moved qjackctl to qt5)
<ErichEickmeyer> Probably a Qt5 port issue then.
<ErichEickmeyer> I'm not really worried at all, the app still functions.
<ErichEickmeyer> Anybody have anything else for the release notes? 
<eylul> not that I can think of, unless any other known problems surfaced during testing
<OvenWerks> -not a LTS
<ErichEickmeyer> (This can also be discussed on the ML)
<eylul> I did notice some issues SlidingHorn noted did we get to the bottom of them?
<OvenWerks> though applications and DE will receive LTS treatment
<ErichEickmeyer> eylul: I'm not sure he filed a bug report explaining the steps required to duplicate his issue.
<eylul> ok
<ErichEickmeyer> That said, there doesn't seem to be any activity regarding a similar issue, so whether or not it is even reproducable is questionable.
<ErichEickmeyer> Seems like a dotfile somewhere in his home folder is getting corrupted, but idk.
<ErichEickmeyer> Anyhow, next item.
<eylul> *nods*
<ErichEickmeyer> I authorized a FFe for musexcore-sftools and fluidr3mono-gm-soundfont (bug 1761272)
<ubottu> bug 1761272 in musescore-sftools (Ubuntu) "Please sync musescore-sftools 20180325-1 (universe) and fluidr3mono-gm-soundfont 2.315-4 (universe) from Debian testing (main)" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1761272
<ErichEickmeyer> Looks like it'll be in the final release.
<ErichEickmeyer> I couldn't see any issues with it, unlike the other FFe request we talked about last week.
<ErichEickmeyer> Any thoughts? Discussion?
 * OvenWerks wishes he could read music in real time...
<eylul> nice
<ErichEickmeyer> Okay. That's all that was on the agenda. I have a couple of items, first one is just to mull over and think about.
<eylul> sorry i tabbed out to read the bug.
<ErichEickmeyer> eylul: Thoughts?
<eylul> *points up to the "nice"* no I think it is good to input that fix
<ErichEickmeyer> Cool.
<eylul> and I am glad it didn't fall through the cracks. :)
<ErichEickmeyer> We have a number of packages installed by default that accomplish the same purpose (kdenlive vs openshot, etc.). I recommend we whittle that down to one and, in the Software Boutique (section of -welcome) show those items as optional installs. The nice thing about the boutique is it gives the option of removing items as well, so they can do it all in one interface.
<ErichEickmeyer> (this would be for 18.10).
<OvenWerks> I have no problem with that.
<ErichEickmeyer> This would slim down our .iso big time.
<eylul> yeah the iso.. is
<ErichEickmeyer> Gigantic?
<OvenWerks> I believe there were reasons for duplicating some things, but I am not much of a video editor
<eylul> I think in some cases it is ok to have 2 versions of same software. as.. they have similarly sized userbases
<eylul> *looks pointedly at darktable and rawtherapee*
<ErichEickmeyer> Agreed. It makes sense in a world when you'd want all of your software at once, but now that things are so much easier to install (esp with boutique) it seems a little like unnecessary software bloat.
 * OvenWerks could point out that there are a number of people who record on Ardour and mix on MixBus... 
<eylul> I think it is in some ways leftover from times where people used livecds
<ErichEickmeyer> Yeah.
<eylul> to do work in, where you expected, to put in a CD, and work on that
<ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks: Yeah, those are nearly two different usecases, so I'd be in favor of keeping both.
<eylul> which.. most new laptops ship without even a CD drive these days :D
<ErichEickmeyer> Yep.
<OvenWerks> eylul: but, but, it's right next to the floppy...
<ErichEickmeyer> So, that's just something to ponder. Wanted to throw that out there. In the interest of keeping things relatively short, just something to think about.
<ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks: LOL!
<eylul> I am not sure about kdenlive and openshot as they have different use cases but yeah fully agreed to take a critical look. 
<eylul> about the software boutique
<eylul> I was thinking about the log krytarik linked 
<eylul> I am wondering  if.. IF (because I am not the one who would maintain this after all) if this could be a good way to dip into maintaining our own PPA repository
<eylul> if we chose to do that and end up doing a fair bit of packaging and how would ubuntu tech team feel about that
<eylul> as biggest concern about the issue was 3rd party PPAs.
<ErichEickmeyer> Well, Kubuntu has a backports ppa, but it's not enabled by default.
<OvenWerks> I think the big thing is licencing
<OvenWerks>  backports are fine.
<OvenWerks> kxstudio is not
<ErichEickmeyer> I don't think I'd want the boutique pointing to unofficial repos for our purposes. Just showcasing software already in the repos should be enough.
<OvenWerks> using a PPA to include linuxsampler for example would be wrong.
<ErichEickmeyer> That takes out the controversy element.
<eylul> ovenwerks: from what I know kxstudio is in progress of removing some of those elements
<eylul> some, not sure if all
<OvenWerks> yes.
<eylul> ericheickmeyer that's fair
<ErichEickmeyer> Showcasing some snaps would be okay, but that's not a repo per se.
<eylul> snaps is another solution if it can be a good solutio
<eylul> solution
<ErichEickmeyer> I have yet to bug popey on that, but he's all for having the discussion.
<ErichEickmeyer> Snaps have really come a long way just in the past 6 months.
<OvenWerks> snaps where they can work are fine, probably not for audio though.
<ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks: Agreed. Gimp, for example, would be good.
<eylul> maybe...
<OvenWerks> gimp has plugins too
<ErichEickmeyer> Still worth exploring, but I didn't want to open that can of worms right now.
<OvenWerks> the snap would have to include all useful plugins or snaps would have to be "mergable"
<eylul> also main issue there is that debian packaging especially has some rules that conflict with things like godot's shop and export plugins. we do need an option for those things down the line. that is not licensing issue exactly, but still well..
<eylul> that's fair ErichEickmeyer
<ErichEickmeyer> I wanted to know how you guys felt about not having a meeting next week since it's just after release, and taking a break before we hit 18.10 with all we've got would be, in my opinion, a good idea.
<eylul> I am ok with it either way :)
<OvenWerks> fine by me. this is not the best time for me on a saturday, but maybe not easy to change
<ErichEickmeyer> Yeah. Also, it looks like I won't even be available next week. :/
<ErichEickmeyer> Cool. So we'll come back on Cinco de Mayo.
<OvenWerks> k
<eylul> :)
<ErichEickmeyer> Alright. I have nothing further. Shall we adjourn?
<eylul> sure
<OvenWerks> ok
<ErichEickmeyer> Okay. Meeting adjourned. I'll get the notes up sometime in the next few hours.
<eylul> OvenWerks: re adding Dolphin and Gwenview into XFCE, it is something definitely to consider. 
<eylul> I did it on my travel laptop, but main issue there is.. they tend to bring a lot of KDE/Plasma packages with them
<OvenWerks> in the future maybe... I am trying to deal with MAE for a while yet.
<eylul> :)
<OvenWerks> *MATE
<eylul> I think they are useful, just something to think about if we think about going that route seriously :)
<eylul> *can't formulate a sentence*
<OvenWerks> anything but "Files"
 * ErichEickmeyer shudders at the thought of files/nautilus
<eylul> hahah
<eylul> can't comment, haven't used it in ages
<OvenWerks> by that point one may as well use firefox as a file manager
<eylul> hey! I actually like firefox :)
<OvenWerks> as a file manager?
<eylul> hahaha
<eylul> point taken
<OvenWerks> is there a theme editor out there?
<eylul> but both dolphin and thunar have so many good sides to them, I wish I could somehow merge them into one file manager.
 * captain-tux_ crawls out of cave...
<captain-tux_> Actually I've been using Nautilus for a while, because Thunar has been rellay unreliable on me and Dolphin just looks too complicated. / Change my mind.
<ErichEickmeyer> captain-tux_: LOL
<captain-tux_> Have I missed a joke? :P
<ErichEickmeyer> captain-tux_: "change my mind"
<captain-tux_> Oh okay, I thought that was directed towards my poor little file manager again. :P
<ErichEickmeyer> Nope, just the meme.
<OvenWerks> lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 13 Apr 20 17:05 software-boutique -> /usr/bin/snap
<OvenWerks> hu, does this mean the software boutique is a part of snap? or that it is a snap package and so has to be started by snap?
<OvenWerks> it has to be started by snap
<OvenWerks> It appears pulls it's application list from git when it starts up.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2018-04-22
<OvenWerks> (or somehwere)
<krytarik> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2018-April/004438.html - btw, and images are ready for us now too.
<captain-tux> Just got the e-mail as well. I'll try to run some tests tomorrow or early next week.
<krytarik> I hope ErichEickmeyer or Roos will be mailing a call for testing later.
<krytarik> Or indeed, Ross. :P
<ErichEickmeyer> Iâm at work right now, so Iâll send out the call for testing as soon as I can. Probably another 60-90 minutes.
<krytarik> You know, the notion that shipping stuff by default isn't so important anymore nowadays because there has been a shift in what installation media is being used...
<OvenWerks> there is not much difference in price between a 2g and 16g any more.
<OvenWerks> There is a difference in length of download though
<krytarik> I mean the conclusion was that because CDs/DVDs aren't often used anymore, we don't have to ship as many apps.
<OvenWerks> people still run live usb sticks.
<krytarik> People use USB stick however, which can hold even more data.
<OvenWerks> being able to make a custom stick would be nice.
<OvenWerks> only include the sw one likes
<krytarik> I mean I agree with the idea to slim down the installation image a little - but that reasoning is totally off.
<OvenWerks> Yes, we crossed the cd/dvd bridge long ago.
<krytarik> Well, it still fits on a DVD - but as was said, not all computers have optical drives anymore.
<ErichEickmeyer> Perhaps I wrote that part wrong in the notes, but there's no reason not to slim-down the ISO image. I may not have crystallized those thoughts correctly.
<OvenWerks> ErichEickmeyer: I don't think we were commenting on your exact words, just talking the merits of size in general.
<ErichEickmeyer> Ah, okay.
<krytarik> Yes, you didn't reflect that incorrectly.
<eylul> I would argue that download amount is still a thing, while internet is faster true, people do have limited amount of space to do so. as for usb, if you are regularly going to use a live usb, persistent systems are better anyway at least in our use case
<eylul> I would also ask if there is a livecd/usb use case for ubuntustudio in particular (and this is not a rhetorical question I am genuinely not certain one way or another)
<eylul> as production usually requires a) a semi persistent setup b) quite a bit of specific hardware (so not portable to say an internet cafe environment)
<eylul> I think this is something we do need to think about in a larger scale krytarik , ovenwerks, ericheickmeyer what exactly our use cases are, once the project is back on track. :)
<krytarik> eylul: Yeah, I certainly don't see people running about with Live USB media with Studio on it either - but the test before install use case is still there anyway, of course.
<OvenWerks> eylul: the big live USB drive use is preliminary mixdown on the train or perhaps some tracking. Also showing a client a partially done project on their window computer. This is not a big thing at all, a quick export would do fine for the second and just the program for the first as latency is not an issue.
<OvenWerks> Those are just the two use cases I have heard of more than once.
<OvenWerks> (from people who actually do these things :)
<OvenWerks> being able to build a custom live disk for these purposes makes more sense.... and there is always AVL
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-04-15
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: https://discourse.ardour.org/t/ubuntu-studio-and-zynaddsubfx/100872
<OvenWerks> Nothing to do with Ardour in this case... but (as of 18.04) ZynAddSubfx does not have the new gui. Another good thing for backports?
<OvenWerks> does our 19.04 version have the new GUI?
<M_aD> OvenWerks: no
 * M_aD just checked
 * OvenWerks wonders if Debian does.
<M_aD> debian? not sure. AVLinux does though and iirc Fedora JAM too
<OvenWerks> debian is slow...
<OvenWerks> I think ubuntu is ahead with Carla for example.
<M_aD> debian prefers stability over newest stuff
<OvenWerks> A good policy for sure... for some things
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Investigating.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks, M_aD: I confirmed that the version in Debian is 3.0.3, and Ubuntu's is trickle-down.
 * Eickmeyer can't find the upstream repo
<OvenWerks> https://github.com/zynaddsubfx/zynaddsubfx
<Eickmeyer> Interesting. That's what I was looking at, but there's no actual release tagged. It's shows 3.0.5 has been released in the commits, but the last tag was 2.5.3.
<Eickmeyer> d'oh! There it is.
 * Eickmeyer must be blind
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks, M_aD: I can throw this in the backports, for sure.
<Eickmeyer> So long as it builds.
 * OvenWerks wonders should it be named zyn-fusion
<OvenWerks> but it has to replace ZynAddSubfx
<Eickmeyer> Well, the steps I have to take here are: 1) clone the Debian git repo. 2) Replace the upstream branch with the tar. 3) Put the pristine-tar data into the pristine-tar branch. 4) Merge the upstream branch into the main branch
<Eickmeyer> 5) Update the changelog
<Eickmeyer> 6) Change the git remote to our own repo
<Eickmeyer> So, it's not an entirely new package.
<Eickmeyer> It's just updating the old one.
<OvenWerks> Does that give you the new GUI? or do you need https://github.com/zynaddsubfx/zyn-fusion-build
<Eickmeyer> We'll see. I'll be investigating, but I need one step at a time.
<Eickmeyer> Falktx has a package, so I'll look at that as well.
<Eickmeyer> Here goes nothing... *clicks build*
 * Eickmeyer sad trombone
<OvenWerks> Build deps?
<Eickmeyer> Nah. Quilt failure. I failed to look for patches and refresh them before upload. :P
<M_aD> Oops moment.... :D
<Eickmeyer> Yeah. Also, I failed to see that the patches addressed issues fixed upstream, so ... Â¯\_(ã)_/Â¯
<Eickmeyer> Oops happens. :P
<Eickmeyer> In the meantime, 6 fail mails. Sorry. :/
<Eickmeyer> Now 9. But this time, it's not my fault.
 * M_aD needs to remind himself to subscribe to the mailing list and sort out other ubuntu studio related things
<Eickmeyer> Moving it to my own PPA for now until I can get it to build cleanly (thereby, not spamming everyone).
 * OvenWerks is trying out the D
<OvenWerks> changing themes helps ;)
<Eickmeyer> Hehe
<OvenWerks> no workspaces by default.
<Eickmeyer> That wasn't changed from prior release(s).
<OvenWerks> Probably the choice
<OvenWerks> Most people are introduced to full screen computing first
 * OvenWerks likes xfce terminal for not saving a layout for all subsequent terminal instances
 * OvenWerks therefore dislikes the way the KDE Konsole works
<OvenWerks> our current version of ZynAddSubfx does not include the LV2
<OvenWerks> (even)
<OvenWerks> nor dssi
<OvenWerks> it does not show as a plugin at all  :P
<Eickmeyer> Appears to be a sepearate package altogether: zynadd for the LV2 plugin.
<OvenWerks> Almost all modern synth use (even on stage) is via plugins
<Eickmeyer> This isn't our fault by a longshot.
<OvenWerks> Maybe not, but these are things we need to look for to be relvant
<OvenWerks> Another thing that may make sense to add for next cycle is a menu item called "Get Drum Gizimo drume sets"
<OvenWerks> (opens browser to drum gizmo drum sets page)
<OvenWerks> Or add them to Installer
<M_aD> maybe add a instrument tuner too
<OvenWerks> There is one in gutarix, but ya, I thought we had.
<M_aD> oh, didn't know that, thanks
<Eickmeyer> Hmmm... Falktx's package isn't any different from the one in Debian for the most part.
<Eickmeyer> re: zynaddsubfx
<Eickmeyer> buildpkg isn't liking the binary instruments.
<OvenWerks> The eq10q package has a bug in it...may be (or Carla does)
<Eickmeyer> What's wrong with it?
<OvenWerks> Look at the maker field in Carla for any of the eq10q plugins
<OvenWerks> they are ok in Ardour
<OvenWerks> -controls works ok.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: That's a pretty silly bug. Not exactly blocking.
<Eickmeyer> NOt that it's silly to mention it, but that it's silly that it's like that.
<Eickmeyer> Probably a Carla bug.
<OvenWerks> Concidering Carla gets all the other plugins right... It does make me wonder.
<OvenWerks> Qtracktor does not give that field so I can't compare
<OvenWerks> Speaking of qtracktor and eq10q.... qtracktor does not seem to allow the mouse events to all go to the right place
<Eickmeyer> That's odd.
<OvenWerks> In Ardour, I can grab any of the EQ points and just drag it to where I want, but in Qtractor it puts the coloured ring around the control point but doesn't allow it to move
<OvenWerks> Works fine in Carla too.
<OvenWerks> but... x42-eq is fine in qtractor :P
<OvenWerks> (different GUI tool kit of course)
<OvenWerks> And qtractor won't let me save :P I am guessing I need the right file extension? or something.
 * Eickmeyer knows nothing about qtractor
<OvenWerks> It didn't like that I was in my home directory... made a sub directory then ok...
<M_aD> yep, just tested that too
<OvenWerks> It actually looks like it just wants you to have done something with the directory, I could still save in my home if I wanted to it seems.
<Eickmeyer> Serious question: What does qtractor do that Ardour doesn't?
<OvenWerks> anything you want a tractor (tracker) for
<Eickmeyer> I see, it's a MIDI sequencer.
<OvenWerks> the two programs go at things from different ends, qtractor is a sequencer first with audio added and ardour is an audio recorder first
<OvenWerks> ardour's midi tracking and editing is hard for people who are used to sequencer programing
<Eickmeyer> I see.
<Eickmeyer> Looks like it's pretty buggy from your reports.
<OvenWerks> just with one plugin. The others work. The save thing was odd, but really one's home directory is not the best place to store porjects that may contain a number of sub files
<Eickmeyer> So, here's the thing: A lot of what MiraMikes packaged in Debian upstream isn't getting packaged anymore because he's busy/MIA. So, there is a big, gigantic, gaping hole with the Debian Multimedia Team right now, and nobody has stepped-in to fill it.
<Eickmeyer> So, packages are getting forgotten.
<OvenWerks> I suspect the problem with eq10q is a gui lib clash... but I don't know. I wouldn't know which of the packages to put a bug against.
<OvenWerks> packaging is not fun, well at least for me.
<Eickmeyer> I'm way too green at packaging
<Eickmeyer> At least, too green to be taking on a ton.
<OvenWerks> right
<OvenWerks> qstuff gets new releases 4 times a year (if it needs it or not)
<OvenWerks> qjackctl is not the latest (which has a patchage type pachbay/connections window as an option
 * OvenWerks wonders what else is out of date...
<OvenWerks> Studio finally gets moving again and debian drops out :P
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: That's odd. I just checked the changelog on qtractor and it says it was updated to 0.9.5 in February?
<OvenWerks> the one in 19.04 says 0.5.0
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: That cannot be accurate.https://qtractor.sourceforge.io/qtractor-downloads.html#Downloads
<Eickmeyer> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/qtractor
<OvenWerks> I'm looking at the about
<OvenWerks> maybe it's wrong.
<Eickmeyer> My about says 0.9.5.
<OvenWerks> qjackctl...
<Eickmeyer> Yes.
<OvenWerks> qtractor is 0.9.5 here yes
<Eickmeyer> Oh, I read you wrong.
<OvenWerks> qjackctl is 050
<Eickmeyer> qjackctl
<OvenWerks> it says 2017
<Eickmeyer> Looks like Ross did that one. Merged with Debian Unstable back in November.
<Eickmeyer> And upstream Debian is MiraMikes.
<Eickmeyer> From the changelog: " -- JaromÃ­r MikeÅ¡ <mira.mikes@seznam.cz>  Sun, 17 Dec 2017 15:42:35 +0100"
<Eickmeyer> So, yeah, gaping hole in Debian right now.
<Eickmeyer> This is quite sad.
<OvenWerks> Seeing as we are no longer relying on qjackctl, I would not worry about it too much. (no backport)
<OvenWerks> but it does look like we need to look through the apps for other things.
<Eickmeyer> There's always this:
<Eickmeyer> !latest
<ubottu> Packages in Ubuntu may not be the latest. Ubuntu aims for stability, so "latest" may not be a good idea. Post-release updates are only considered if they are fixes for security vulnerabilities, high impact bug fixes, or unintrusive bug fixes with substantial benefit. See also !backports, !sru, and !ppa.
<OvenWerks> For audio, it seems a stable OS with the latest apps on top is best.
<OvenWerks> So LTS with backported applications
 * OvenWerks tries an install (for completeness)
 * OvenWerks assumes the install part is well tested by Xubuntu ;)
<Eickmeyer> I tested the install part myself My results are already logged, I had zero issues.
<OvenWerks> Ya, I was pretty sure that was so.
<OvenWerks> My main concern was apps.
<OvenWerks> They seem to work OK
<OvenWerks> I have to do an install if I am going to check out some of these packages too. I need to install synaptic
 * OvenWerks gets tired trying to test with CL stuff
 * Eickmeyer hates it when LP's build farm gets stuck
 * OvenWerks finds it wierd looking at the released -controls
<OvenWerks> The zynadd package may not work too.
<OvenWerks> (Carla doesn't load the LV2)
<OvenWerks> Qtractor does
 * Eickmeyer sighs
<OvenWerks> ardour doesn't either
<OvenWerks> In qtractor I can't _do_ anything with it that I can tell. Maybe It says somewhere what the port is I should connect to.
<OvenWerks> I suspect getting the new version going will just fix all of this though
<Eickmeyer> Well, right now I'm waiting on someone to go take a large hammer to LP's build farm to get it running again.
<OvenWerks> zynadd is meant to be performance only I think. Use standalone to create the sound patch then use the LV2 to play it.
<OvenWerks> but I will note that zynadd is a git pull not a release
<Eickmeyer> Ah, I see.
<OvenWerks> It is not the new GUI either
<OvenWerks> (actually it seems to have no GUI
<Eickmeyer> No. According to Robin the new GUI used to be nonfree.
<OvenWerks> I know, but it has been free for over a year
<Eickmeyer> Not according to Robin. That was changed only this past January.
<Eickmeyer> Ah, fundamental said Dec 31, 2017.
<OvenWerks> Dec 31st, 2017 
<Eickmeyer> So, yes, just over a year.
<Eickmeyer> From the changelog for our version: -- JaromÃ­r MikeÅ¡ <mira.mikes@seznam.cz>  Sat, 09 Dec 2017 21:55:18 +0100
<Eickmeyer> 3.0.3 didn't have it.
<Eickmeyer> KXStudio has 3.0.4, so I'm looking at the rules file for that to see if there's any changes that need to be made.
<OvenWerks> zynadd is not really official
<Eickmeyer> Unfortunately, with the build farm stuck, I can't do much but speculate.
<Eickmeyer> Nobody in #launchpad has responded.
<OvenWerks> Anyway, I don't see anything to stop 19.04
<OvenWerks> The black box in Grub is still anoying. If that can be fixed by 20.04 That would be nice.
<Eickmeyer> Cool. I'll go ahead and mark the build as ready (so I don't hae to on Wednesday).
<OvenWerks> Sure.
<Eickmeyer> Unfortunately, that black box is hardcoded in grub. :(
<Eickmeyer> I might be able to change its color.
<OvenWerks> The old Studio Grub didn't seem to do that
<Eickmeyer> That's because it was text-only.
<OvenWerks> Or maybe the whole screen went black so it couldn't be seen
<Eickmeyer> Probably it.
<Eickmeyer> Ubuntu MATE (from whom it was forked) does the same thing.
<Eickmeyer> Build farm unstuck, build still has issues. Working....
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: As far as zynaddsubfx goes, I'm going to have to punt this to Ross. I can't get it to build. :(
<Eickmeyer> Way over my head.
<Eickmeyer> Build as a debian package, that is.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-04-17
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: I addressed the UX part of Ross's email, I'm guessing you have input on the freezing issues.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-04-18
<M_aD> There was another iso that has been tested?
<Eickmeyer> M_aD: Yes, and it wasn't much different from the last one, so there was no announcement.
<Eickmeyer> It's tested and ready to go. Once the release team drops the release announcement, I'll be dropping a release announcement as well.
<M_aD> Eickmeyer: hey :) 
<M_aD> roger that
<Eickmeyer> Oh and...
<Eickmeyer> !party
<ubottu> Please remember that #ubuntu, #kubuntu, #xubuntu, #edubuntu, and #lubuntu are support channels. To countdown to !disco release and then party once it happens, join #ubuntu-release-party - For in-person parties, see http://loco.ubuntu.com/events/global/3339/
<Eickmeyer> That was a bit more pedantic than I was expecting, but feel free to join. :)
<M_aD> cool, thanks :)
<M_aD> Eickmeyer: do you have experience with upgrading to a new release? I want to keep 19.04 install and go from there without performing a clean install when 19.10 comes out. I know upgrading was a piece of cake on Fedora when i used it. 
<Eickmeyer> Yeah! I did it back in January. "sudo do-release-upgrade -d" works pretty well.
<M_aD> sweet
<Eickmeyer> You can leave out the -d if it's an actual release you're upgrading to.
<Eickmeyer> Any external repos you have will be disabled, but it's just a matter of going in and reenabling them.
<M_aD> thanks, i'm not using any external repos nor do i plan to :)
<Eickmeyer> It's out now.
<M_aD> so i noticed :)
<M_aD> bbl
<Eickmeyer> https://ubuntustudio.org/2019/04/ubuntu-studio-19-04-released/
<M_aD> hmmm... noticed the connection isn't secure when going to the release announcement on the ubuntu studio website
<Eickmeyer> M_aD: It's just the images. They default to the old http://.
<Eickmeyer> Sadly, I can't fix that.
<M_aD> ok, no problem :)
<M_aD> thanks for adding me to the FB group by the way
<Eickmeyer> M_aD: Of course! Thanks for answering the questions. Too many people attempt to join without answering those questions. I wait it out to see if they ever answer, and most of them never do, so I have to decline their membership. :/
<Eickmeyer> Or, they answer "yes" to that last question, which smells like a potential bot.
<OvenWerks> I am guessing there are no longer any people running pre xfce versions of Studio so upgrading should just work.
<Eickmeyer> It worked for me...
<Eickmeyer> Disables PPAs, but that's easy enough to reenable.
<OvenWerks> disabling PPAs just makes sense... though I do wonder what the uprgade does with packages that came from a PPA
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> I belive it dist-upgrades them.
 * Eickmeyer can't spell believe
<OvenWerks> I guess I was wondering if thge package doesn't exist in the repo and can only come from a PPA then what? does it leave it? or remove it?
<Eickmeyer> It doesn't change, iirc.
<OvenWerks> If it leaves it then it may not work due to lib changes. Reconnecting to the PPA does the PPA auto change the package even if it is the same release but different cycle?
<Eickmeyer> Yes, but it might have to be updated from {old codename} to {new codename} in software & updates or sources-list.d
<Eickmeyer> Or not.
<OvenWerks>  Hmm, we add with: add-apt-repository -y ppa:ubuntustudio-ppa/backports
<OvenWerks> That doesn't show cycle so it must get it from what is installed
<Eickmeyer> That's correct. You don't have to specify it with add-apt-repository.
<OvenWerks> So the upgrade removes the PPA and when readded it should be the right one. So that sounds pretty painless
<Eickmeyer> It doesn't remove it, it disables it.
<Eickmeyer> But, yes, you're correct.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-04-19
<sakrecoer> congratulations on the release!
<sakrecoer> super fresh!
<Eickmeyer> sakrecoer: Thanks! Gave you some credit too, for your advice.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: coolgames is here and has been testing with midi clocks and such, and wants to help test in the future as well.
<coolgames> Just going to ask how to see historical chat if it makes sense to do.
<Eickmeyer> coolgames: https://irclogs.ubuntu.com/
<coolgames> I am using 3 screen System 76 Lemur with HDTV and VGA for separating work. The active Midi are new Akai MPK mini play with internal general Midi to save cycles on (eventual) Pi or Beagle.
<coolgames> Future external Midi is from Roland Go:61k with 16 channels of Midi and Midi clock.
<coolgames> Erickmeyer: I see logs so need to figure how to search next.
<Eickmeyer> coolgames: Excellent. If you run into any obvious bugs, open a terminal and typ "ubuntu-bug {package name}". So, for instance, if zynaddsubfx does something unexpected, you'd type "ubuntu-bug zynaddsubfx".
<Eickmeyer> That said, there's not much we actually develop here aside from Ubuntu Studio Controls and Ubuntu Studio Installer. The rest is just packaging stuff from upstream projects.
<Eickmeyer> Oh, and in IRC, if you want to type someone's name... oh, I'll let ubottu expain it.
<Eickmeyer> !tab | coolgames
<ubottu> coolgames: You can use your <tab> key for autocompletion of nicknames in IRC, as well as for completion of filenames and programs on the command line.
<Eickmeyer>  coolgames: Sadly, there's no search function in the logs. :/
<Eickmeyer> Just remember: we're not responsible for every piece of software. Just because it's bundled doesn't mean we write it.
<coolgames> I am beginning to understand. I met Linus in 1995 DC DECUS 55 while he was in college. He gave me a copy of 64 bit DEC Alpha V2 Red Hat as he worked out how to work with Bob Young. I started there and left Linux in 2008 for OS yuks Apple. That failed to stick to Linux so came back in 2014 with the Lemur.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks (in this chat) is the developer of Ubuntu Studio Controls and primary contributor to Ubuntu Studio Installer. He's also an Ardour developer, so he wears a few hats.
<coolgames> Also HACKING at / in Android Studio and ADB for Oculus Go VR. 
<coolgames> I have messed with Rosegarden as Ardour was too steep to learn. Latest is LMMS and Sunvox.
<Eickmeyer> coolgames: Okay, so you're used to taking proverbial sledge hammers to software and beating them up? :)
<coolgames> OvenWerks: What's a simple control surface to use with Ardour ? Akai seems more friendly than Roland.
<Eickmeyer> coolgames: He might not be around at the moment.
<Eickmeyer> I use a Behringer X-Touch Mini myself. I'm a 25-year audio engineer.
<coolgames> I think I was almost at that thought. I am on Github as CoolGames as well.
<Eickmeyer> Cool. Our development is done using git in Launchpad, so if you want to get your hands dirty, that's one way.
<Eickmeyer> Myself and Rosco2 do much of the packaging and repo uploading. Rosco2 isn't typically in IRC, he's a pretty busy guy. He also leads our testing, with me filling that role in his absence.
<coolgames> I been learning Node.JS with the Github for Scratch 3 which is rewrite from old flash version. Midi will be added sometime this summer I hope. Roland has new Scratch blocks for their devices expected as well.
<Eickmeyer> You and OvenWerks should definitely chat. I couldn't code my way out of a paper bag.
<Eickmeyer> I know he could definitely use some help implementing ideas in Controls and Installer.
<coolgames> In 1980-185 I did release testing and customer demos of interactive TV. I got a Roland Juno 106 and had built serial to Midi to connect mainframe to the synth.
<Eickmeyer> Wow. Uh... you're making me feel young. (I was born in '80).
<Eickmeyer> Then there's tsimonq2 (he's primarily with the Lubuntu team but gives us advice from time-to-time) who makes me feel old.
<tsimonq2> hahahaha
<tsimonq2> (I'm 17, started contributing to Ubuntu when I was 13.)
<Eickmeyer> ^See? SEEE???
<coolgames> Also got a cheap Best Buy Insignia running re-mixed 16.04 with Studio post-installed. It has 32 bit EFI then 64 bit Atom cpu so cludged. I can't get the Silead touch to work using mssl at Github. 
<tsimonq2> Eickmeyer: The first OS I used was Windows XP.
<coolgames> My first was Apple 6
<Eickmeyer> tsimonq2: Microsoft Basic on a Commodore VIC-20 here. :P
<coolgames> OS 6 not iPhone 6
<tsimonq2> haha
<coolgames> Altair , Imsai here
<coolgames> Still have my subscription issues announcing them in 1960 +-
<Eickmeyer> Wow. coolgames, that's impressive!
<Eickmeyer> Where I live (near Seattle), we have Paul Allen's Living Computer Museum. They might have an Altair there.
<coolgames> DEC in 1980 is PDP-11 that became X11 when sent to MIT. 20 meg hard drives were the size of washing machines !
<Eickmeyer> I've seen one of those! Huge monsters.
<coolgames> I think that was moved from Boston Computer Museum ?
<Eickmeyer> I don't think so. It was something Paul Allen started.
<coolgames> High speed paper line printers wee static grounded due to flying reams of tracter fed supplies ! 
<Eickmeyer> Oh yes. I've seen those.
<coolgames> Just Googled and the Boston is in Mountain View. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_History_Museum
<coolgames> Dualing largest collection status !
<coolgames> dueling
<coolgames> I see Ubuntu search is Oct 20, 2004 so a decade after Linus gave me a copy of Red Hat V2.
<coolgames> https://www.computerhistory.org/tdih/october/20/
<Eickmeyer> Yep. Ubuntu Studio came 2 1/2 years later, mostly as an add-on with instructions in a wiki article.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-04-20
 * OvenWerks was using slackware 95ish
<OvenWerks> actually, sinclair->AT Mega2->drdos->OS2->Igdrasil linux->slakware
<OvenWerks> Before that I did learn on a pdp8 in school (with core memory even)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-04-21
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: What do you think about keeping the 18.04 backports open until July 2020? That gives people 3 months to upgrade from 18.04 to 20.04 rather than hard-cutting it off.
<OvenWerks> I think backports are different than cycle support and it is ok to keep backports going as long as it makes sense
<OvenWerks> The cycle support is for the ISO, but backports are part of the installer which applies to vanilla which has a longer support cycle.
<Eickmeyer> Right, cycle support ended January, technically.
<Eickmeyer> Because we released as non-LTS.
<OvenWerks> Yeah, but vanilla is LTS and installer supports vanilla
<Eickmeyer> Basically, the public doesn't understand. Ubuntu Studio 18.04 is non-LTS, so that screams "avoid" to the LTS-only people.
<OvenWerks> So backports should do the same support.
<Eickmeyer> Right, but flavor support is typically 3 years. Should we just go to 2021 on that then?
<OvenWerks> That would be fine I guess.
<Eickmeyer> Okay. I guess I should make some sort of announcement to that effect. Probably stipulating "Only with the backports PPA."
<OvenWerks> Certainly I would prefer to see people using 18.04 till 20.04 than 16.04
<Eickmeyer> Right. 16.04 is EOL on Thursday, and I already have a post scheduled for the website on that.
<OvenWerks> By 18.04, systemd is reasonably fully in use and stable.
<OvenWerks> 14.04 is all upstart, 16.04 has some of each...
<Eickmeyer> Right.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-04-13
<OvenWerks> Bug #1872250
<ubottu> bug 1872250 in ubuntustudio-controls (Ubuntu) "ubutustudio-controls usb bridge control does not work when device is plugged in" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1872250
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: fix commited (like the rest of us?)
<studiobot> <teward001> is a fix committed for that OvenWerks?
<OvenWerks> uploaded two minutes ago
<OvenWerks> Maybe 8?
<OvenWerks> change log needs to quick massage
<OvenWerks> From unreleased to whatever and bump the version.
 * OvenWerks wanders off to fix the next bug on the list (Ardour this time)
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Ok, I'll upload.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Uploaded, version bumped to 1.12.4, targeted focal. Changes good on the github verison too?
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Nevermind, found out for myself.
<Eickmeyer> Ok team. Final Freeze is Thursday. Here's the uploads in the queue that we're waiting on: darktable 3.0.1, carla 2.1 (final), and ubuntustudio-installer 0.08 (typo fix).
<Eickmeyer> Getting the release team to simply ack these has been like talking to a brick wall. I'm getting nervous and frustrated, not gonna lie.
<OvenWerks> LTS blues?
<OvenWerks> so far 20.04 is a good release.... 18.04 I was ready to give up pretty much
<Eickmeyer> I feel like we can't get rid of 18.04 fast enough.
<OvenWerks> backports has also come a long way
<OvenWerks> there has not been abackports since before I started
<OvenWerks> (thankyou for fixing my typos)
<Eickmeyer> Heh, you're welcome. Wasn't hard, just glad somebody saw it.
<Eickmeyer> The other part of that bug is something we can't do anything about without a rewrite.
 * OvenWerks didn't read the whole bug
<OvenWerks> what was the other part?]
<OvenWerks> (or a link)
<Eickmeyer> bug 1872386
<ubottu> bug 1872386 in ubuntustudio-installer (Ubuntu) "Minor cosmetic issues in ubuntustudio-installer " [Low,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1872386
<OvenWerks> To me the real bug is that the reboot message should not appear if it is not needed. The code in -controls should be used to check if the user has the access needed. I think if autojack is running that is probably enough even (maybe not)
<Eickmeyer> Agreed, but in this case, the person who filed it was running Ubuntu (proper), so they were using GNOME.
<Eickmeyer> So the message would pertain to them.
<Eickmeyer> The scenario you brought up is if someone is already running Studio.
<OvenWerks> yup.
<OvenWerks> personally, for such a message, a "jarring" font and box is a good thing :)
<Eickmeyer> Ha! Agreed.
<Eickmeyer> Gets your attention, even if ugly.
<OvenWerks> we could put a systemd service that removes a file that installer has created on shutdown so the next time installer runs it does not use that
<OvenWerks> other way around
<OvenWerks> renames a file?
<OvenWerks> installer goes touch needs-reboot, systemd goes mv needs-reboot rebooted
<Eickmeyer> That could work, at least in theory.
<Eickmeyer> Or it could check to see if the current user is in @audio, which I believe is the goal anyhow.
<OvenWerks> The only time a reboot is needed is first time run and after kernel install
<OvenWerks> and to see if they have rt access
 * OvenWerks thinks if there is anything else
<OvenWerks> I guess most people will start it once choose what they want and never start it again
<OvenWerks> when I was testing it, I was installing one bundle (get warning) then installing another bundle (another warning) etc.
<OvenWerks> so my experience was atypical
<OvenWerks> so leave it in there
<Eickmeyer> Yeah. Besides that, we don't have the Ubiquity plugin anymore, so its point for Studio users is moot. It's basically strictly for adding Studio to another flavor now.
<OvenWerks> Is thath how it was fixed?
<OvenWerks>  :)
<OvenWerks> some people won't like that
<Eickmeyer> Yep. Turns out the Ubiquity plugin couldn't be maintained anymore. It was forked from an Edubuntu plugin, and we know what happened there.
<Eickmeyer> Well, we can't do much about that. It was utterly broken.
<OvenWerks> So things on my todo list:
<OvenWerks> Ardour bugs/feature requests (OSC and foldback)
<OvenWerks> kbmidi add ALSA
<Eickmeyer> Fun. Mine is to pester the release team.
<OvenWerks> idjc update
<OvenWerks> -controls... stuff
<Eickmeyer> Did they actually port idjc to Python3, or are you doing that yourself?
<OvenWerks> I have not found anything for that
<Eickmeyer> I haven't either.
<OvenWerks> there are 2019 commits though
<OvenWerks> so it is not dead
<Eickmeyer> No, just not Python2 alive.
<Eickmeyer> For all intents and purposes, anything still using Python2 at this point is dead.
<OvenWerks> Yeah, but the author may (depending on which OS they use) update that for personal reasons
<Eickmeyer> That means it can't be in Arch, Ubuntu, Debian, or Fedora at minimum. openSUSE might be in that too.
<OvenWerks> I also have the repo for jack-mixer but I think rather than bringing that back to life, a new non-mixer like unit that uses LV2 might be better
<OvenWerks> I would really like to add LV2 plugin hosting to the jackd ALSA back end
<Eickmeyer> That would be nice. Though, some plugins have standalone binaries, like lsp-plugins.
<OvenWerks> there would be no support for GUIs
<OvenWerks> the plugins would have to be OSC or MIDI controled
<OvenWerks> My purpose is not to add _any_ plugin but to be able to add an output volume control that can be controlled by the systray
<OvenWerks> I may be better off just adding a level control and leaving it at that
<OvenWerks> honestly, I would like to change the way jack works. The backend would be the dummy backend... any device would become a client.
<OvenWerks> the backend is able to sync to one device client and to route i/o to that client
<Eickmeyer> Just like zita-ajbridge.
<OvenWerks> we could do that now
<OvenWerks> but I want the dummy i/o to reflect the synced device client
<OvenWerks> the user would be able to set up an i/o map so that (for example) dummy output 1&2 would be device output 9&10
<Eickmeyer> Interesting concept.
<OvenWerks> I do not know if the dummy back end would self sync to a zit-ajbridge that was set to hard sync or not
<OvenWerks> I don't think so
<Eickmeyer> The way it functions now? not likely.
<OvenWerks> dummy gets sync from the CPU right now.
<OvenWerks> I would like to see a system wide media clock
<Eickmeyer> That would be nice, could be integrated into the transport.
<OvenWerks> it would be able to be synced from: CPU, Network (AVB, Dante, AES67), any audio device
<OvenWerks> The jackd dummy back end would sync from that
<Eickmeyer> Dante support for Linux. There's something that would be nice.
<OvenWerks> Dante uses the same meadia clocking as AES67 and AVB
<OvenWerks> *media even
<OvenWerks> So it is possible to set up AES67 that syncs to a Dante network and have that dante network talk to the AES67 linux endpoint... though near as controlable
<OvenWerks> I don't know if a wine app could do the discovery and control part or not.
<OvenWerks> I do think networked audio will trickle down to consumer levels in the next years.
<OvenWerks> I think that probably AVB will be the one that does so first
 * OvenWerks wanders off to breakfast with wife
<Eickmeyer> Have a good breakfast.
<Eickmeyer> Darktable is accepted. One down, two to go.
<Eickmeyer> Carla is all that's left now.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: This throws a wrench in things... https://discourse.ardour.org/t/a-eq-and-a-comp-fail-on-manjaro-xfce/103122
<OvenWerks> I just checked and yes this affects our Ardour package
<OvenWerks> it will take at least a release note.
<OvenWerks> The fix may be to import this directory: https://github.com/Ardour/ardour/tree/master/libs/plugins
<OvenWerks>  I don't know if just cherry picking: https://github.com/Ardour/ardour/commit/3df530e7f6521a74d5184c6de04589cd762c5f12
<OvenWerks> would do it.
<OvenWerks> This has to do with the c compiler version in 18.04
<OvenWerks> I notice that a-delay, and a-reverb are not a part of this fix and they don't work either
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: I can confirm that https://nightly.ardour.org/ 64bit, optimized, free/demo, gcc5
<OvenWerks> when installed then cp -r /opt/Ardour-6.0.pre1.294/lib/LV2/* /usr/lib/ardour5/LV2/
<OvenWerks> does make them work.
<Eickmeyer[m]> File a bug report, we might be able to upload. teward, might need upload powers.
<Eickmeyer[m]> ERR:GroceryShopping
<OvenWerks> right. rg says we should be able to just recompile
<OvenWerks> as in when was the Ardour package last compiled?
<OvenWerks> as compared to  the 2.31 version of the GNU C Library
<OvenWerks> when you get home... is it possible to rebuild Ardour in our dayly or whatvere to see if that makes work ok?
<OvenWerks> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ardour/+bug/1872555
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1872555 in ardour (Ubuntu) "the included a-* plugins can not load because of the new version of the GNU C Library" [Undecided,New]
<OvenWerks> Says it was built Mon, 23 Mar 2020 07:09:56 +0100
<OvenWerks> the reason for build was: * No-change rebuild for libgcc-s1 package name change.
<OvenWerks> I would think that should cover it... 
<OvenWerks> nope, * GCC snapshot, taken from the trunk (20200411, f883c46b487). Matthias Klose <doko@ubuntu.com>  Sat, 11 Apr 2020 15:58:53 +0200
<OvenWerks> This is from the changes list on the installed package. So maybe just a rebuild will work.
<OvenWerks> added a comment to the bug report to this effect
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: you may wish to boost the importance on the bug. I can't
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-04-14
<OvenWerks> I may start switching my day to day over to 20.04 this week.
<Eickmeyer> I'm going to throw it up to critical.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: So, for clarification: Do we need that patch or no? Should I just grab the plugins from that directory?
<OvenWerks> robin thinks it should just work so long as it is built on the same lib as we run
<Eickmeyer> So, are we talking a simple rebuild or should I patch the plugins?
<OvenWerks> we can't just grab binary files
<OvenWerks> they have to be source
<Eickmeyer> Well, yes. That's not an issue.
<Eickmeyer> I'm talking grabbing the a* plugins from the git tree and creating a patch with them.
<OvenWerks> if I can get a rebuild to test I can tell.
<Eickmeyer> Ok, I'll just do a simple rebuild then.
<Eickmeyer> Standby...
<Eickmeyer> https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/+recipe/ardour-daily
<Eickmeyer> That should at least emulate what we're trying to do.
<Eickmeyer> I have a patch ready though.
<OvenWerks> it says 40 mins to go
<Eickmeyer> Yeah, it would be that way whether or not it was a PPA upload.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Build done, waiting for publish
<Eickmeyer> You could probably grab it now from https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/+archive/ubuntu/autobuild/+build/19157297
<OvenWerks> so I have to install all three packages?
<OvenWerks> guess so.
<Eickmeyer> Sadly, yes.
<Eickmeyer> No clue why someone decided to split it into three packages since all three depend on each other.
<OvenWerks> it did not install correctly
<OvenWerks> the main package says it has dependency problems
<OvenWerks> even efter installing the other two packages first
<Eickmeyer> Oh, that's easy to fix. Just download all three to your ~/Downloads directory, then in that directory, "sudo apt install ./ardour*"
<OvenWerks> when I try apt -f install it wants to reinstall the original packages agian
<Eickmeyer> The command I just gave you is for installing the local files.
<OvenWerks> that didn't help
<OvenWerks> trying to remove them first
<OvenWerks> do we install the video timeline by default?
<Eickmeyer> Yes.
<OvenWerks> The following packages have unmet dependencies:
<OvenWerks>  ardour-data : Breaks: ardour (<= 1:4.2~dfsg-1) but 5.12.0-0~202003241547~ubuntu20.04.1 is to be installed
<Eickmeyer> I'll have to give it a whirl.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: I might have to rebuild with a trick in the recipe.
<OvenWerks> waht I was able to do still did not install the a-plugins
<Eickmeyer> I'm rebuilding the package now.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: So, the whole reason it didn't install was because the ~ in the version number makes it less than the actual version number as far as apt is concerned.
<OvenWerks> ja, that makes sense
<Eickmeyer> Biggest reason: I forgot the epoch (the 1 in front of the colon).
<OvenWerks> Looks like it is still not right
<OvenWerks> it still says newer version available
<Eickmeyer> Yeah, I just started another build.
<Eickmeyer> this time WITH the epoch.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Looks like this one will actually install. No "Newer version available" tag.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: give it a whirl from this build: https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/+archive/ubuntu/autobuild/+build/19157446
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Same problem exists. Could not be loaded.
<Eickmeyer> Might actually need the patch.
<OvenWerks> could be. Odd though did the delay line work?
<OvenWerks> (a-delay)
<Eickmeyer> I didn't try. I tried loading a-compressor.
<Eickmeyer> Same issue with a-delay.
<OvenWerks> it looks to me that the patch doesn't touch a-delay
<OvenWerks> why do they wait till an lts to try new libs?
<Eickmeyer> The patch I made does. It grabs the entire libs/.plugins/* from the working tree.
<Eickmeyer> I'll try it next.
<OvenWerks> and it works?
<Eickmeyer> I need to build it first. :P
<Eickmeyer> Building now.
<Eickmeyer> Well, that completely failed.
<Eickmeyer> I'm going to have to figure this out.
 * OvenWerks wonders how long that has been broken for
<Eickmeyer> Since the no-change rebuild.
<Eickmeyer> I'd bet on it.
<OvenWerks> I wonder is there is a build flag we can use to make it c++11
<OvenWerks> Its probably c++19 or some thing
<Eickmeyer> I'm going to continue working on this, then I'm going to yell at people for not notifying any of us of these no-change rebuilds.
<Eickmeyer> The failure is due to my patch not applying correctly, meaning it's a bad patch.
<Eickmeyer> I basically have to apply the patches one by one, then create another patch.
<OvenWerks> it would be interesting to see if ardour 60 builds on this and works
<Eickmeyer> Ok, new build in progress.
<OvenWerks> how come python doesn't point to anything?
<OvenWerks> hmm, python2.7 still exists
<OvenWerks> and is not one of the things autoremove wants to take out
<Eickmeyer> They want the python version explicitly called-out.
<OvenWerks> ok so all the scripts people have been using forever are then broken? seems prtty dumb
<Eickmeyer> And, complete FTBFS with my patch. Turns out, the newer plugins don't like the version of waf I have & patched.
<Eickmeyer> This might have to be an SRU.
<Eickmeyer> I can work on this tomorrow with Robin to show him the issue.
<OvenWerks> these are things that should have happened at 19.10... at the latest
<OvenWerks> 18.10 would have been better
<Eickmeyer> Agreed. I'm going to have a nasty email to the release team about this. This is unacceptable.
<Eickmeyer> Upgraded gcc a month before release. Not cool.
<Eickmeyer> Aha. Missing autowaf. I can fix that.
<Eickmeyer> Rather, the plugins weren't pointing to the custom autowaf. Just patched.
<OvenWerks> I wish there was a way to just always install the -dev package for all packages I use
<Eickmeyer> If you install the -dev package, it pulls in its base package usually.
<OvenWerks> ya, but I want all the dev packages to just install if I have the libs anyway
<Eickmeyer> 37 minutes to a build.
<OvenWerks> most of that waiting for availablility
<Eickmeyer> Nope. It's seriously how long it takes to build the thing: https://launchpad.net/builders
<OvenWerks> I guess that makes sense, it takes 12 min here for a straight build without setting up a whole build environment first
<OvenWerks> right now I am importing the dev requirements for ardour 6
<Eickmeyer> Not gonna lie, I'm excited for Ardour 6. Though, I'm also a bit excited for mixbus 6 which dropped today.
<OvenWerks> it appears there is a newer liblv2 than we have too
<OvenWerks> 1.17.2
<OvenWerks> maybe that is for a different os?
<Eickmeyer> Not sure, I'd have to look.
<Eickmeyer> Fedora has lv2 1.16.0
<Eickmeyer> Ubuntu also has lv2 1.16.0
<OvenWerks> ardour looks for 3 different groups of versions and uses which ever one it finds
<Eickmeyer> Cool!
<Eickmeyer> lv2 github onlyl has a 1.16.0 tag. Strange you found that 1.17.2
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Build is ready if you want to grab it: https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/+archive/ubuntu/autobuild/+build/19157649
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Fix works.
<OvenWerks> my build of 60 works too.
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> @teward001 When you come back to us, critical fix for Ardour at https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/+git/ardour, fixes bug 1872555
<ubottu> bug 1872555 in ardour (Ubuntu) "the included a-* plugins can not load because of the new version of the GNU C Library" [Critical,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1872555
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> I'd upload, but ERR:NoPackageSetYet
<Eickmeyer> With that, I'm heading to bed. That was a bit of a rollercoaster.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: good night confirm your fix works
<teward> Eickmeyer: do you need me to upload something for you?
<Eickmeyer> Wow, I just happened to be looking at this when you pinged.
<Eickmeyer> https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/+git/ardour
<Eickmeyer> Fixes bug 1872555
<ubottu> bug 1872555 in ardour (Ubuntu) "the included a-* plugins can not load because of the new version of the GNU C Library" [Critical,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1872555
<Eickmeyer> teward: ^
<teward> cloning fresh since i purged my VCS directories
<Eickmeyer> Ok, probably a good idea.
<teward> patch fuzz
<teward> *finger wags*
<Eickmeyer> Wait... what?
<teward> dpkg-source: info: the patch has fuzz which is not allowed, or is malformed
<teward> dpkg-source: info: if patch '0200-fix-for-a-plugin-failure.patch' is correctly applied by quilt, use 'quilt refresh' to update it
<teward> dpkg-source: error: LC_ALL=C patch -t -F 0 -N -p1 -u -V never -E -b -B .pc/0200-fix-for-a-plugin-failure.patch/ --reject-file=- < ardour.orig.vwGGlI/debian/patches/0200-fix-for-a-plugin-failure.patch subprocess returned exit status 1
<teward> dpkg-buildpackage: error: dpkg-source -b ardour subprocess returned exit status 2
<teward> oops
<teward> 1 moment
<teward> ah hang on
<teward> yeah this won't debuild
<teward> dpkg-source: info: the patch has fuzz which is not allowed, or is malformed
<teward> dpkg-source: info: if patch '0200-fix-for-a-plugin-failure.patch' is correctly applied by quilt, use 'quilt refresh' to update it
<teward> so either the patch is malformed or it has fuzz
<teward> can't figure that one out
<Eickmeyer> That's not possible. Something is wrong on your end. I did an autobuild on it which went cleanly.
<teward> ah wait interesting
<teward> The next patch would create the file libs/plugins/reasonablesynth.lv2/MSVCreasonablesynth/reasonablesynth.vcproj,
<teward> which already exists!  Skipping patch.  <--
<teward> that's interesting
<Eickmeyer> https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/+archive/ubuntu/autobuild/+build/19157649
<teward> that's probably why let me dig
<Eickmeyer> The patches have to be applied in order, otherwise you'll get that error.
<teward> i know this lol
<teward> but it IS applied in the order of `quilt series`
<teward> https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/9GPd5fPHfR/ <-- is this the proper patch order?
<Eickmeyer> Yes, that's correct. Don't know why it's not building right on your system, it worked in that build I just pointed out.
<teward> deploying a 20.04 dev env as well
<teward> with my PGP key that I probably shouldn't be cloning off my smartcard
<Eickmeyer> I just got the same issue. Dunno why. Might have to remake the patch. >.<
<teward> yeah you may have to
<Eickmeyer> Strange that it will build cleanly in Launchpad but then has issues locally.
<Eickmeyer> teward: This is totally weird. I can run dh_quilt_patch and it runs cleanly. If I run debuild, it fails.
<Eickmeyer> I might have to throw an override in the rules file.
<Eickmeyer> That's right, it doesn't use debhelper.
<teward> Well it needs to run via debuild in order to build proper for debian pckaging so :P
<teward> Either way you may have to override
<Eickmeyer> Right, but we're using that "classic" way.
<Eickmeyer> teward: The problem here is CDBS applies the patches differently.
<Eickmeyer> I'm banging my head against the wall here.
<teward> sounds like we need ubuntu-devel help xD
<Eickmeyer> Carla has now been accepted. We just need the bugfix for Ardour to get accepted, then as long as nothing completely falls apart on us, we're good to go.
<Eickmeyer> Ardour uploaded, waiting for acceptance.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-04-15
<studiobot> <teward001> @Eickmeyer [@teward001 When you come back to us, critical fix for Ardour at https://code.lau â¦], if i recall this was fixed already
<studiobot> <teward001> thank you to others for handling the upload yesterday :0
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> @teward001 [if i recall this was fixed already], That's correct.
<Eickmeyer> We're looking at two packages that need to be accepted at this point: ardour and rapid-photo-downloader, with ardour being the more critical of the two.
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> @teward001 Do you think I should incessently pester #ubuntu-release to get that done? ^
<studiobot> <teward001> i'm already pestering them for an nginx FFe to get done
<studiobot> <teward001> if you want to pester them that's your call
<studiobot> <teward001> given it's a Critical I would
<studiobot> <teward001> because IIRC Final Freeze is today
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Final Freeze is tomorrow, but yes.
<studiobot> <teward001> meh whatever
<studiobot> <teward001> *yawns*
<RikMills> @teward001 just pretend you are Simon
<studiobot> <teward001> I am still waking up
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> hahahahahaha
<studiobot> <teward001> yeah no i'm better than Simon lol
<studiobot> <teward001> Simon actually owes me cash lol
<studiobot> <teward001> or rather, Lubuntu Foundation probably will if they want faster SLA to their infra issues xD
<Eickmeyer> Rapid Photo Downloader update is accepted, we are good to go, pending no other mejor issues hit us.
<OvenWerks> Ardour is through too?
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: ^^
<Eickmeyer> Yep.
<OvenWerks> when will the ISO be ready?
<Eickmeyer> Next daily will probably be tomorrow, and they'll probably start making final RCs starting tomorrow.
<OvenWerks> I just noticed while doing some cleanup that my wife has a BT speaker sitting around. I may try to see if it is possible to auto connect from script...
<Eickmeyer> I'm pretty sure the only way to do that is through Pulse. Not even ALSA connect directly to BT speakers
<OvenWerks> Yeah, but going from jack to pulse to BT is not straight forward
<Eickmeyer> Oh, absolutely true.
<OvenWerks> It would be nice to be able to create a jack->pulse bridge called BT-speaker or something and send a command to pulse that connects it to the BT speaker
<Eickmeyer> I just hope nobody would expect it to be low latency.
<OvenWerks> not even Intel lowlatency (30ms) I would guess
<Eickmeyer> Bluetooth is notoriously latent.
<OvenWerks> I know (from the LAU mail list) that there are at least some people who have figured it out
<OvenWerks> The best solution would be to use the zita SRC lib to create a BT-out jack client
<OvenWerks> I think the pulse solution is best for now. The jack client may become redundent if pipewire replaces pulse soon
<Eickmeyer> I have pipewire installed (but not activated) by default in Fedora Jam.
<OvenWerks> doesn't show up in ubuntu (at least not 18.04)
<Eickmeyer> !info pipewire focal
<ubottu> pipewire (source: pipewire): PipeWire multimedia server. In component universe, is optional. Version 0.2.7-1 (focal), package size 217 kB, installed size 1408 kB
<Eickmeyer> It's in Focal.
<OvenWerks> disco even
<OvenWerks> https://packages.ubuntu.com/search?keywords=pipewire
<Eickmeyer> !info pipewire disco
<ubottu> pipewire (source: pipewire): PipeWire multimedia server. In component universe, is optional. Version 0.2.5-1 (disco), package size 211 kB, installed size 1345 kB
<Eickmeyer> Yep, slightly older version.
<OvenWerks> good
<OvenWerks> one hopes the versions are going up quickly at this point of development
<Eickmeyer> Might be fun to play around with. I know the version in Fedora 32 uses the Jack API.
<Eickmeyer> Not yet pulse though.
<OvenWerks> I think they offer a pseudo default device like pulse though
<Eickmeyer> The idea is that it will use the Jack and Pulse APIs, therefore eliminating the need for a bridge.
<OvenWerks> yeah, I am guessing that a jack to jack bridge will just show up :)
<OvenWerks> There are a lot of people who are not ready to trust PW over jack even with the API
<Eickmeyer> Won't be necessary. Jack applications won't know any different.
<Eickmeyer> I wouldn't expect anyone to trust PW yet.
<Eickmeyer> It's still real early.
<OvenWerks> may not be needed for our use (someone who wants to work around it is welcome to do so... on their own
<Eickmeyer> Experimental, even, though Fedora does want to move to it as default by Fedora 34.
<OvenWerks> 34... what is current? and how often do the numbers move?
<Eickmeyer> Current is 31, 32 is in release candidate, and 33 will be in October/November. Fedora does delay if they feel it's necessary unlike Ubuntu which sticks to very strict release dates +/- 1 day or so.
<OvenWerks> so around next year at this time
<OvenWerks>  (within a couple months)
<Eickmeyer> Roughly, yes, unless they feel there's blockers. PipeWire has a lot of Red Hat backing.
<OvenWerks> yeah, a lot of things get in that way
<OvenWerks> if the pulse-jack bridging is better with pw I am all for it
<OvenWerks> that is, basically if they use jack as the backend for pulse as we do
<Eickmeyer> Well, the bridge would be PW itself. In theory, if you look at a Carla patchbay, each application, whether it uses pulse or jack, would show-up in the patchbay.
<Eickmeyer> Of course, they would auto-patch to primary system out, but you get the idea.
<Eickmeyer> So, you'd have Firefox in there, or anything else with an audio in/out.
<OvenWerks> The question in may mind is: with multiple devices, where do they show up?
<Eickmeyer> In theory, yes.
<Eickmeyer> I mean, each device would show up in the patchbay as well, kinda like we have with zita-ajbridge.
<OvenWerks> If a jack application gets it's device from the pw backend rather than alsa, many people may not be very happy
<Eickmeyer> I'm not sure PW overrides alsa.
<Eickmeyer> I think it's more like a replacement for Pulse and Jack.
<OvenWerks> So if pw uses the jack part as the backend that is fine and makes sense, but if jack then goes through pw then through alsa not so good
<Eickmeyer> No, you don't understand. Jack wouldn't actually run. PW would essentially *be* both jack and pulse.
<OvenWerks> now I guess pw essenially rewrites jack in anycase, so it may be that the jack api works directly with the pw backend
<Eickmeyer> Exactly.
<OvenWerks> so one might say pw is a rewrite of jack that features a pulse front end... and video streaming
<Eickmeyer> Something like that.
<OvenWerks> I wonder if there will also be a pw front end that applications can access directly.
<Eickmeyer> Well, browsers can access different devices separately via pulse, so I'm sure that will be the case. Applications won't have to be rewritten for their audio backend, it'll be transparent.
<Eickmeyer> I'd say PW is more like a rewrite of both jack and pulse that combines the two.
<Eickmeyer> ...and video streaming.
<OvenWerks> how does the video streaming affect X and or wacom? (and vulcan?)
<Eickmeyer> Nooo clue, but I know it's all on their radar.
<OvenWerks> So have you played with pw at all?
<OvenWerks> How does one set SR, buffers etc?
<Eickmeyer> Not yet. Been too busy with getting our stuff fixed.
<Eickmeyer> That and homeschooling.
<Eickmeyer> I might play with it soon though.
<OvenWerks> my son is "leave me alone, i've got it"
<Eickmeyer> My son it 8.
<OvenWerks> mine's 14
<Eickmeyer> Yeah. If he were older, then yeah, he could do it, but he doesn't stay motivated on his own.
<OvenWerks> I'm not sure how motivated Tim is either, but he does seem to do better without help
<Eickmeyer> Mine would never even do his school work if I weren't motivating him. He's on spring break now, but we have a schedule of subjects we follow.
<OvenWerks> our spring breat was the last two weeks of March... he never went back :)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-04-16
<OvenWerks> wrt idjc, it was dropped due to python? does that mean changing all calls from "python" to "python2" would fix it?
<OvenWerks> I am guessing the last two lines I wrote did not make it through?
<Eickmeyer> That *might* work.
<Eickmeyer> Problem is the shebangs need to be patched too.
<OvenWerks> it does use pygtk? or something that may be too old
<Eickmeyer> Not sure.
<Eickmeyer> I think that's too old, there's a python3/gtk3 thing that replaces that.
<OvenWerks> I am guessing when the python 2/3 thing hits the author intheir OS it will get fixed
<OvenWerks> The problem is that rivendale seems to run behind everyone
<OvenWerks> (they use idjc as a control room app)
<Eickmeyer> Last commit was in December, but they don't seem to be in a hurry to move to Python 3.
<Eickmeyer> https://bugzilla.xfce.org/show_bug.cgi?id=16648
<ubottu> bugzilla.xfce.org bug 16648 in General "Orange mark at window edges" [Enhancement,Reopened]
<Eickmeyer> Wrong paste.
<Eickmeyer> https://sourceforge.net/p/idjc/code/ci/master/tree
<OvenWerks> so long as it works on their system they won't... as soon as they upgrade and it doesn't work... that will become more important
<OvenWerks> also, it may be a big enough change to be a WIP on a branch
<Eickmeyer> Quite possibly.
<Eickmeyer> Ladies and gentlemen, Final Freeze is in effect.
<OvenWerks> all the good new releases of everything will come out next week ;)
<Eickmeyer> Yep.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-04-17
<Eickmeyer> dragonfly-reverb will live in Backports for now. :/
<OvenWerks> better than not at all.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: I would suggest that Ardour6 be a separate package for at least a while to give people the chance to finish projects with 5.12
<OvenWerks> The session file format is different and there are other differences that may affect the way a previously recorded session sounds
<Eickmeyer> Well... ooo... that's touchy. When it comes to Ardour, when Ross merges my packaging back up to Debian, we'll likely go back to a Debian sync, which means we'll be at the mercy of whatever is decided there.
<OvenWerks> (of course the may even be true from 5.12 in 19.10 and 5.12 in 20.04)
<Eickmeyer> We *might* be able to put Ardour 5.12 in a PPA by itself.
<Eickmeyer> Of course, this would be for GG onward.
<OvenWerks> I know we had ardour and ardour 4 for a while
<OvenWerks>  or was it ardour and ardour5?
<OvenWerks> I think it was 3 and 4
<Eickmeyer> Probably because Debian had it that way. It'll likely be ardour and ardour6, if it follows the same pattern.
<OvenWerks> Then (if 60 is released in the next few weeks the way Robin is talking) 5.12 could be dropped for 20.10 and ardour6 become the new ardour
<Eickmeyer> That's the way I'd want to go ideally, keeping 5.12 in 20.04 and in a PPA for those that need it in 20.10 onward.
<OvenWerks> Basically if someone can't finish a mix in 6 months... a new or diff3erent sound is their problem
<Eickmeyer> Uh... yeah. Totally.
<Eickmeyer> Of course, I'm a live engineer, so if you couldn't finish the mix on the fly you had other problems.
<OvenWerks> 6.0 is very much a better product and because mixbus came out first with most of the same code... most of the new bugs have been fixed (thankyou Ben)
<Eickmeyer> Oh, cool! I plan on upgrading to Mixbus 6 tomorrow.
<Guest38546> Hello, I have upgraded to 20.04 however i have noticed that Carla does not show up as a instrument plugin on LMMS. I was expecting this to be the case due to the Carla version upgrade
<studiobot> <teward001> Eickmeyer: ^ since I kno you're around
<Eickmeyer> @teward001 he's in main and exited this channel.
<studiobot> <teward001> ah ok
<Eickmeyer> We don't want those kinds of questions in this channel anyhow.
<studiobot> <teward001> it sucks IRC names aren't relayed here :)
<studiobot> <teward001> joins/parts*
<studiobot> <teward001> unreltaed you have a PM in your telegram :P
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: do you even know how to use lmms? it does'n make sense to me, i open it and think now what?
<Eickmeyer> I have no clue. I couldn't even figure out where to get the VST plugins in the UI.
 * Eickmeyer makes mental note to drop it from 20.10
<OvenWerks> some people like it
<Eickmeyer> Oh, I know. Those people can install it from the repos. Â¯\_(ã)_/Â¯
<OvenWerks> but they really do need to accept LV2 as the standard linux plugin. 
<Eickmeyer> *sigh* Idk.... I just really don't like how the devs don't see upgrading from lv1 a priority.
<OvenWerks> if you drop it put doesn't support lv2 as the reason
<OvenWerks> :)
<Eickmeyer> I think if I drop it, that might be the wake-up call they need. :)
<OvenWerks> how does debian see VST3?
<Eickmeyer> Debian doesn't like VST. Period. It tows the line of non-free. I think VST3 is like that since Steinberg won't even release it as open source.
<OvenWerks> the headers are gpl
<OvenWerks> the host code can be totaly open
<OvenWerks> the plugin code can be too
<Eickmeyer> Yeah. I don't know then. I just know that even Fedora has issues with VST.
<OvenWerks> just not if one uses their tools to build
<OvenWerks> Ardour 7 will support vst3 probably
<Eickmeyer> That'd be cool.
<Eickmeyer> Apparently lmms is working on lv2 for 1.3, whenver that gets released?
 * OvenWerks is learning to use autotools :p
<OvenWerks> "auto" in autotools is a lie I think
<Eickmeyer> Ha! Indeed it is.
<Eickmeyer> It's always fun when I'm packaging something and it requires "autobuild.sh" to be run before "autoconfig" and "automake". :P
<OvenWerks> I have a very simple applet that has only one file mcpdisp.cc to compile (no .h file even) but it dos need to add to libs libjack and lib fltk.... and I can't even get that to work.
<OvenWerks> it works fine with just the makefile... but getting automake to generate this is not working. It says add this line to this file but that file already has that line :P
<OvenWerks> I want to have a configure script is all
<OvenWerks> ok, success!!... well sort of. autoreconf which is not mentioned in any of these tutorials seems to like to be run frequently
<OvenWerks> I finally have a makefile. I don't get an executable out of it yet... but that will come.
<Eickmeyer> Yay
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: I thought the idea was to only have to run ./configure make and makeinstall
<Eickmeyer> Ah.
<Eickmeyer[m]> stevenjaycohen: I'm considering you part of the team now that you're a moderator on Reddit.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Welcome aboard.
<studiobot> <teward001> welcome
<StevenJayCohen> Thank you
<Eickmeyer[m]> stevenjaycohen: So, I can do a few introductions. You already know me. OvenWerks is basically the lead of development (ubuntustudio-controls is his baby among other things), eylul (azbulutlu on Telegram) is the lead of artwork and design/advises me on which graphics applications to have and proofreads stuff for the website, teward is an Ubuntu Core Dev that helps me get stuff into Ubuntu, and one other (Ross, aka rosco2) is our
<Eickmeyer[m]> Debian developer who works mostly via email.
<StevenJayCohen> Let me know other ways that I can help out
<StevenJayCohen> Thanks OvenWerks I really appreciate all of the work you've done. I've recently migrated our whole recording studio to Ubuntu Studio -- not more mac or windows anywhere
<studiobot> <teward001> i also help advise on packaging issues that're chaotic to fix ;)
<studiobot> <teward001> but the team overall is well driven :)
<studiobot> <teward001> (and this is me via our Telegram bridge.)
<StevenJayCohen> I was checking out riot.im and bridging to IRC when Eickmeyer pined me
<StevenJayCohen> pinged*
<StevenJayCohen> I've been working on a PWA and wanted to check out how riot built theirs.
<StevenJayCohen> My most useful skills to this team may be my teaching/blogging background. I spent years teaching educators (non-geeks) how to use tech in the classroom, I've continued doing that by teaching narrators and actors how to self-record/edit/master in their home studios. And, I've been blogging since before WordPress was forked from cafelog. So, my skills are community facing, my tech skills make me more of a
<StevenJayCohen> tester/hacker than a programmer, and if you need someone to work on documentation/etc, I'm your guy.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Well, then you're exactly the kind of person we're looking for.
<eylul[m]> welcomeSteven Jay Cohen to team. :))
<StevenJayCohen> Thanks eylul 
<eylul[m]> by the way eickmeyer, I want to take a look at the long standing eyesore the screenshots at the website this week are, as it looks like I will find the time to do so, do you have a preference for the procedure for updating the content that is not version controlled (e.g. blurbs on front page, those screenshots etc - my suggestion would be just sticking all the new versions to wiki, and then copy pasting them in,
<eylul[m]> but I am open to other ideas)
<eylul[m]> by the way eickmeyer, I want to take a look at the long standing eyesore the screenshots are this week* I cannot construct sentences in english language, what else is new
<Eickmeyer> eylul[m]: I already replaced them. :)
<eylul[m]> oh?
<Eickmeyer> Yeah, take a look.
<Eickmeyer> Except the front page.
<Eickmeyer> The tour is fixed.
<eylul[m]> awesome!!!!!
<eylul[m]> we should add Krita to the list on the tour
<Eickmeyer> Agreed. I just replaced what was there.
<eylul[m]> unless for some reason it doesn't get installed by default. (under the graphics category)
<Eickmeyer> It does get installed by default.
<eylul[m]> also an idea, how about we put the blurb on the top of each page as well so that there is a bit more context to the pages...
<Eickmeyer> Sure.
<eylul[m]> I'll do that now. that's pretty quick :) 
<Eickmeyer> Sounds good.
<Eickmeyer> One thing I noticed: We don't include Shotwell by default anymore, yet it's still on the photography page. Odd.
<Eickmeyer> I mean, it's installable...
<eylul[m]> it might have went during.. there was a pruning at some point, but I thought we updated the tour since then
<eylul[m]> honestly it might be worth making a review of the software we preinstall, at some point. it has been a while since we last did that
<Eickmeyer> I think next release Openshot might get the boot for shotcut. Openshot is much more feature-rich now, more like kdenlive.
<eylul[m]> and I do know there is a few new photography tools that came out since then.
<Eickmeyer> I think this next release is a perfect opportunity.
<eylul[m]> kdenlive actually has been very actively developed, and is a lot more stable. 
<Eickmeyer> Especially if we're going Plasma, which it feels like we are per consensus.
<eylul[m]> I would keep the both and stick to the two. (kdenlive has been actively developed well for the past year) 
<eylul[m]> nods
<eylul[m]> there are also some new photography tools
<Eickmeyer> I just don't feel like we need to have two fully-featured video editors. I'd rather go with kdenlive.
<Eickmeyer> Pitivi needs to go too, it's very buggy.
<eylul[m]> oh you want to lose openshot?
<eylul[m]> I would say one out of pitivi and openshot
<eylul[m]> not both
<Eickmeyer> Yeah. Openshot used to be something to get quick stuff done with, now it competes with kdenlive. I'd replace it with shotcut, since shotcut now fits that mold.
<eylul[m]> I would like to make sure one side has all the features other has
<eylul[m]> but let me get back to you on that, after the release?
<Eickmeyer> Sure.
<eylul[m]> the problem with the video editing programs is that not all of them have some features  (like there still are some reasons to use blender)
<Eickmeyer> Well, blender isn't a video editor, per se. It's a 3-D modellilng program that *happens* to have a video editor.
<eylul[m]> but I mean we do keep rawtherapee and darktable together :))
<eylul[m]> yet it still has features as a video editor that other software doesn't. :) 
<Eickmeyer> Rawtherapee works for doing quick raw files. Darktable does that *and* catalogs them.
<eylul[m]> (although kdenlive is catching up fast, so not sure where that count is these days :)) )
<Eickmeyer> I see Blender as closer in style to After Effects, Kdenlive close to Premiere.
<eylul[m]> darktable can do some pretty sophisticated edits, and anything short of compositing (you can technically composite with it, but it is.. hacky :P) raw therapee I haven't used it lately, but there is a fork of it that is called art. ergo. I really need to look what is going on. 
<eylul[m]> true!
<StevenJayCohen> A Venn Diagram on the website would be helpful
<StevenJayCohen> showing the overlap between the apps
<eylul[m]> :)
<eylul[m]> likes the idea
<Eickmeyer> Darktable is a lot like Adobe Lightroom.
<StevenJayCohen> This is what made me think of suggesting it
 * StevenJayCohen uploaded an image: image.png (754KB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/eoVyESdIMRRcHhfxpmQuwcvZ >
<StevenJayCohen> In the same way, you could show how each app overlaps others in functionality
<Eickmeyer> TIL I'm an animal farm. ð
<StevenJayCohen> It would help people new to designing on Linux understand what does what
<eylul[m]> Darktable is very much equivalent of that 
<eylul[m]> except in some ways it is better subjective opinion. but hey! better noise reduction and it definitely works a lot better with infrared photography - shuts up
<eylul[m]> I really like the idea.
<eylul[m]> that could be integrated into the reviewing all the apps project through?
<eylul[m]> that way it is not two rounds of work...
<StevenJayCohen> App selection is subjective, always is (vim vs emacs as an example)
<eylul[m]> you are here is probably firefox, ubuntustudio-controls and libreoffice ducks the incoming object
 * Eickmeyer throws nothing
<eylul[m]> unless you are a student. :) 
<eylul[m]> well come on libreoffice addition at least deserved a popcorn thrown :))
<StevenJayCohen> So, if it's free but closed source, it can't be in the Ubuntu Studio install, right?
<eylul[m]> (libreoffice is actually in publishing category btw)
<eylul[m]> (it actually has quite a few styling based features)
<eylul[m]> short answer is yes.
<Eickmeyer> StevenJayCohen: Correct. It must be licensed to be freely redistributable and open source.
<eylul[m]> (I mean some codecs and such do come with ubuntu... sort of)
<StevenJayCohen> A venn diagram per section would be great (audio, photo, video, pub)
<StevenJayCohen> show the DAW overlap
<eylul[m]> audio photo video, 3D pub
<StevenJayCohen> right
<eylul[m]> yes I just added that category in
<eylul[m]> (is trying really not to get sidetracked, the week of release candidate)
<eylul[m]> Also Eickmeyer: permission to add Features: Audio to the title (previously it was just: Audio - which looks a bit out of context when you are viewing the page by itself)
<Eickmeyer> eylul[m]: Yeah, sounds good.
<Eickmeyer> Would probalby need that for all of those pages.
<eylul[m]> I am doing all of them at once
<eylul[m]> was more giving the example of it
<Eickmeyer> Ah, makes sense.
<eylul[m]> :)
<eylul[m]> oh grumble.
<eylul[m]> it also changed the menu 
<eylul[m]> http://ubuntustudio.org/tour/audio/
<Eickmeyer> eylul[m]: Oof, yeah, that doesn't work. Sorry.
<eylul[m]> that should be fixable through
<eylul[m]> give me a moment let me see if I can fix it via menu
<eylul[m]> I think it can be
<eylul[m]> yeah it can be fixed
<eylul[m]> fixes
<eylul[m]> then shakes fist at too smart wordpress
<Eickmeyer> Yes, that works.
<eylul[m]> Todo: add a blurb for krita, update the blurb for graphics.
<eylul[m]> replaced openshot with GIMP for photography as that should have never happened. but TODO: add many photography software we have.
<eylul[m]> I'll do a few emergency fixes I see to these later tonight or tomorrow for very obvious problems but we can review the rest when we do the inventory of where we are. now i need to go send my students their take-home midterms. 
<Eickmeyer> Ok, sounds good. :)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-04-18
<OvenWerks> autoproject is broken... and it seems most of the auto tools do not work right
<OvenWerks> make on it's own seems to figure things out better.
<OvenWerks>  so I have given up on auto tools for now.
<OvenWerks>  I think I will upgrade to 20.04 instead
<OvenWerks>  then I have a better reason to file bug reports
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-04-19
<RikMills> I see darktable 3.0.2-1 in debian
<RikMills> wtf? new features in 3.0.2 compared to 3.0.1!
 * RikMills hates projects that do that
<Eickmeyer> RikMills: Seriously???? They released new features on a POINT RELEASE??? *grumble*
<Eickmeyer> Means I'll probably have to add that one to the backports.
<RikMills> Eickmeyer: https://github.com/darktable-org/darktable/releases
<Eickmeyer> RikMills: Yeah, that should've been a bump to 3.1.0. -_-
<RikMills> Some KDE projects have this habit as well. Like they put in lots of bugfixes, and then add a small feature as a 'by the way'
<RikMills> which is annoying as hell
<RikMills> THEN they complain that we don't have the latest in Ubuntu!
<Eickmeyer> I get that too. Lots of projects like to release stuff after freezes and we're like,  Â¯\_(ã)_/Â¯
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: https://discourse.ardour.org/t/development-update-6-0-rc1-tagged/103393
<OvenWerks> looks like by the end of the month
<Eickmeyer> Wow!
<OvenWerks>  (which month?)  ;)
<Eickmeyer> Haha
<Eickmeyer> I think what I'll do is make a PPA of 5.12 for people that want to keep it, but I'm going to see what Debian does with packaging before I jump on 6.0.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: there is really no rush
<OvenWerks> be nice to have a 6.0 in backports for those who want it _now_
<OvenWerks> basically backport 6.0 to 18.04 -> 20.04 then backport 5.12 for 20.10... maybe 21.04
<Eickmeyer> I was thinking a separate ppa for backporting Ardour so that we don't break stuff for people using the main Backports PPA before it releases.
<OvenWerks> has to release first :)
<Eickmeyer> I probably won't worry about 5.12 for 20.10.
<Eickmeyer> There's stuff in the backports PPA for 20.04 *now*.
<StevenJayCohen> Not a snap?
<Eickmeyer> StevenJayCohen: Ardour wouldn't work as a snap.
<OvenWerks> snaps do not work for audio stuff
<Eickmeyer> Snaps are unable to use plugins.
<StevenJayCohen> Right, can't access stuff
<Eickmeyer> Funny enough, Flatpaks can.
<StevenJayCohen> Wow, and politically that would be a bad move
<StevenJayCohen> Unless the snap vs flatpack feud is overblown
<Eickmeyer> The feud is overblown. You can install flatpaks in Ubuntu. "sudo apt install flatpak" then "flatpak install ____"
<Eickmeyer> You can also install Snaps in Fedora.
<StevenJayCohen> It seems like the new vim vs emacs
<StevenJayCohen> Right, I have both plugins added to gnome software now
<Eickmeyer> I lead both Ubuntu Studio and Fedora Jam. That's no secret.
<StevenJayCohen> So how about a flatpack for ardour?
 * OvenWerks uses joe as editor
<StevenJayCohen> Would that make less work for you?
<Eickmeyer> Nope. Most of the packaging is done upstream in Debian, and they're very likely to pick-up Ardour. At that point, it's a sync request.
<StevenJayCohen> OvenWerks :) I'm a vim guy
<Eickmeyer> I'm a nano/VisualStudioCode guy.
<StevenJayCohen> Makes sense
<Eickmeyer> Maybe Kate.
<OvenWerks> joe for text, mousepad/kate/geany for GUI
<StevenJayCohen> Vim and gvim -- I'm boring that way
<StevenJayCohen> I'll use any of them in a pinch
<OvenWerks> I like a bit more than nano... I have to think to much to use vi... and I never did learn emacs
<StevenJayCohen> I had vim drilled into me at a job. So, it's second nature
<StevenJayCohen> Things like ciw mean change in word
<StevenJayCohen> 27dd delete 27 lines
<OvenWerks> I can't think of where I would use that...
<StevenJayCohen> Or di" means delete inside the quotes
<OvenWerks> it would take more time to count the lines than to start select go down till the end of wht I want to delete end select and delete selection
<StevenJayCohen> And ci) or ci} work that way too
<OvenWerks> but for code development I use geany.
<StevenJayCohen> Honestly, once I realized that gnome3 was also meant to be short cut driven, I finally got the hang of that. So, now it kinda feels vim like
<OvenWerks> If I start a call it will give a list of calls that match for auto complete and then when I get to the first ( it shows what params I need
<OvenWerks> gnome3 is like having a desktop with no controls... open a terminal to act as the menu
<StevenJayCohen> The vim shortcuts are most useful when editing existing code
<StevenJayCohen> ci) selects everything inside () deletes it and let me replace it
<OvenWerks> every time I try gnome3 I get lost and can't wait to get to a real desktop.
<StevenJayCohen> I saw a video where someone explained that it's meant to be search driven. You can do a lot without ever touching the mouse
<StevenJayCohen> The fact that it looks like a mobile UI is deceiving
<OvenWerks> I always get bad search terms
<OvenWerks> they never seem to get me to an app that I want
<OvenWerks> unless the search is so wide I have to search through pages of junk to finally find what I want
<StevenJayCohen> I do like XFCE. It feels a lot like macOS 8-9.04
<StevenJayCohen> Very usable, does not dominate the experience
<StevenJayCohen> Let's you get work done
<OvenWerks> basically the only improvement (productivity wise) to win95 style desktop is favourites and recently used apps/files
<OvenWerks> Add the standard X thing of more than one workspace and I have everything I need
<StevenJayCohen> Didn't super key search get added in Vista?
<OvenWerks> not useful to me
<StevenJayCohen> As an answer to Mac spotlight
<OvenWerks> dyslexia doesn't deal well with that
<StevenJayCohen> That's where we differ, I prefer search over menus
 * OvenWerks does not use the whisker menu in xfce, but rather the appmenu
<OvenWerks> I understand
<StevenJayCohen> XFCE, materia theme, papirus icons, I'm happy
<OvenWerks>  I feel it is completely valid that each person likes something different
<OvenWerks> I think we are headed to kde :)
<OvenWerks> 20.10-ish
<StevenJayCohen> I started on kde using SUSE
<StevenJayCohen> Way back
<StevenJayCohen> Kde performance is good these days
<Eickmeyer> The desktop environment changed from KDE to Plasma in version 4. KDE refers to the community of developers.
<StevenJayCohen> And materia has a kde theme, and breeze icons are nice
<Eickmeyer> ^ Funny you mentioned Materia for KDE... I've already packaged it. ð
<StevenJayCohen> I was v3, back in the days when Keramik was cool and Konqueror was the file manager and browser
<OvenWerks> kde has it's ups and downs. kde was my first move away from fvwm.
<StevenJayCohen> Perfect
<OvenWerks> I enjoyed it untill plasma made it too slow on my system
<OvenWerks> by that time gnome2 was good enough to switch (early gnome would have sent me back to fvwm)
<StevenJayCohen> https://www.stevenjaycohen.com/2003/11/01/keramik-pearl/
<OvenWerks> then gnome3 came out which would not even run on my system cause it was way too resource intensive... aside from being too obtuse to use anyway... so xfce
<OvenWerks> but the newer kde (plasma5... I think?) is better/faster I still use the clasic menu though...
<StevenJayCohen> Plasma will be a good match for studio
<OvenWerks> but kde does offer 4 ways to access applications including search based
<StevenJayCohen> The graphics people will be happy for the change
<OvenWerks> yes
<OvenWerks> I just mentioned I was thinking of installing studio over kubuntu 20.04 for my daily use and Eickmeyer asked why not just change Studi to kde... so it seems we are going that way
<Eickmeyer> Well, in all honesty, it was because eylul[m] mentioned she's using Kubuntu, and I've never been partial to Xfce, so it just seemed as though since the majority of the team is using it, why not go that route?
<StevenJayCohen> The audio people will take a bit of convincing. So performance numbers in the announcement would help
<OvenWerks> StevenJayCohen: the other thing I do not like about gnome is their forcing theme on window decorations. I use a lot of windows on any screen and so rely on the window title bar being a contrasting colour to indicate focus. gnome steals that from me.
<StevenJayCohen> Makes sense, again we work differently. I tend to full screen a single app
<StevenJayCohen> I like small laptops 12-13"
<OvenWerks> because xfce tends to use the gnome utilities, xfce ends up having a mix of window styles and looks junky
<StevenJayCohen> Truth
<OvenWerks> kde can force title bars even on gnome app windows
<OvenWerks> I have as many as 10 windows on a screen (two displays wide)
<StevenJayCohen> And Materia and Breeze would keep it all looking unified
<OvenWerks> only 6 on this screen :)
<Eickmeyer> I'm actually considering continuing to use Materia and Papirus, but Breeze isn't a bad icon set by any stretch.
<StevenJayCohen> How is papirus in kde?
<Eickmeyer> Plasma can use any icon set.
<OvenWerks> but using Ardour means I normally have three windows just for that... not counting plugin windows
<StevenJayCohen> But does it have many plasma specific icons?
<Eickmeyer> StevenJayCohen: Not anymore.
<Eickmeyer> Hasn't since 5 first released about 5-6 years ago.
<StevenJayCohen> The recording machines have a wide monitor with 2 side by side windows, PDF viewer and daw
<Eickmeyer> Either way, if it's not in Papirus, it falls back to Breeze.
<StevenJayCohen> Nice
<Eickmeyer> Multi-screen handling in Plasma is WAY better than Xfce from my experience.
<StevenJayCohen> Don't the papirus guys package materia-kde?
<Eickmeyer> Yep.
<OvenWerks> xfce seems to auto get my screens the right way around, kubuntu I have to switch them.
<Eickmeyer> Not package, but developed.
<StevenJayCohen> Nice
<Eickmeyer> I packaged it. Just waiting for the GG archive to open.
<StevenJayCohen> Theme question, what do you think of vimix?
<Eickmeyer> Looks like a clown exploded on the title bar.
<Eickmeyer> Not necessarily a bad thing if that's what you're into.
<OvenWerks> screen shot?
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: https://github.com/vinceliuice/vimix-gtk-themes
<OvenWerks> I don't get it
<Eickmeyer> Lotsa color. And a very red accent color.
<OvenWerks> What does it offer?
<Eickmeyer> Nothing that I can see. Just aesthetics.
<OvenWerks> which window has focus?
<OvenWerks> how do I tell?
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Looks like a slight difference in shade of the dark gray.
<OvenWerks> I mean in the screen shot I can assume the top one is... but I often type into a window not on top
<OvenWerks> really.
<Eickmeyer> If you look at the one with the calculator, looks like the title gets gray. Title is red on the focused one.
<Eickmeyer> I can say I'm not a fan.
<OvenWerks> but the one above that has four windows with four colours.... which one has focus?
<Eickmeyer> Oh, that's just a sample shot with the color variations of the theme.
<StevenJayCohen> I like some of what it does to materia, and it's icon theme, like papirus, is derived from paper
<OvenWerks> not useful
<Eickmeyer> Not an actual screenshot.
<Eickmeyer> I think we'll stick with Materia. Fits the overall design aesthetic we have.
<Eickmeyer> I also have a good working relationship with the developer of Materia.
<StevenJayCohen> It's a great theme. Simple and functional
<OvenWerks> cool, application->pulse->jack->pulse->bluetooth speaker
<Eickmeyer> A year ago, there was a nasty bug in it which made the title bar in Ubiquity gray on dark gray (unreadable). I notified the developer, and he quickly made a patch to fix it, which I cherry-picked and got uploaded. After that, it got integrated.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: You got it to work?
<OvenWerks> ja
<Eickmeyer> Noice. :D
<Eickmeyer> Latency ahoy.
<OvenWerks> the secret sauce is: pacmd load-module module-loopback latency_msec=5
<Eickmeyer> Are you thinking about integrating that into studio-controls somehow?
<Eickmeyer> (I'm working on a new icon for that, btw).
<OvenWerks> This means in controls I need to be able to connect pulse out to a pulse-blue
<OvenWerks> not just harware
<OvenWerks> *hardware
<Eickmeyer> That makes sense.
<OvenWerks> I guess we can have a pseudo device called bluetooth
<OvenWerks> Anyway, I need to be able to also find out the pacmd/pactl command to do the internal pulse connections
<Eickmeyer> ð
<OvenWerks> I am guessing I should also include any HW devices we hook up with zita-ajbridge
<OvenWerks> It seems the loopback module can have parameters that setup the source and sink directly
<OvenWerks> http://i.imgur.com/5Yz5v4D.png
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: ^^ this is what the connection looks like in jack
<OvenWerks> so this should not be a part of the pulse bridging tab. It should be treated as a device in Extra devices.
<OvenWerks> current latency: 85.22 ms  :P  Thats bluetooth
<OvenWerks> So in extra devices add two checkboxes: Add pulse Bluetooth output and Add pulse Bluetooth input 
<Eickmeyer> Agreed.
 * OvenWerks wonders how pw deals with this
<Eickmeyer> PW doesn't have Pulse or Bluetooth yet, AFAIK.
<Eickmeyer> Might have a family thing on Thursday, so I'm prepping the release announcement now.
<OvenWerks> cool
<OvenWerks> just what every kid needs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1B3gATS0GE
<Eickmeyer> Ha! I saw that on Reddit.
<OvenWerks> did you see her cut down version of the tesla too?
<Eickmeyer> Not yet. I will. ERR:KneeDeepInAnnouncement
<OvenWerks> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R35gWBtLCYg
