#ubuntu-accessibility 2010-12-06
<hajour> hai jono and vish
<jono> hey
<hajour> i got another idea to put on the list
<hajour> a pop up speak for memory problem combine with blind
<hajour> have put the idea by my list accessibility on my wiki page
<AlanBell> great
<hajour> Al
<hajour> pff forgot tab
<hajour> AlanBell,  i want to contact a school for deaf people and ask where they have problem with
<hajour> maybe some will try ubuntu out
<hajour> hai
<hajour> hai cprofitt  
<hajour> hai all
<hajour> have to say .duanedesign his program cli companion is also accessibility to learn by example linux command.easier with read/writhe problems
<hajour> now i dare to try to learn it
<hajour> but i have to eat.so til later :)
<hajour> jono thanks for the compliment in your journal .:)
<jono> hajour, no worries, thanks for the lovely poem!
<hajour> :) is what i feel.
<hajour> jono i dit not expect so much after the poem.not really knowing how to react on the commotion.
<jono> hehe
<jono> :)
<charlie-tca> hajour: so first people want to know your ideas, now we think you write good poetry, too :-)
 * hajour hides
<UndiFineD> does that mean jono wants to do something on ethos / respect too ?
<hajour> sorry i was getting help for someone
<hajour> know i can talk
<hajour> sorry for delay :)
<hajour> jono i thought it will be good if i can come in contact from development.so i can tell and they can ask
<hajour> prefer in chat.i am not good in email.and i think chat is some more personally
<hajour> sorry for my bad English
<hajour> hai davidb 
<davidb> hi hajour 
<hajour> curious when we get the next meeting ?
<davidb> i don't have context.
<hajour> it should be nice to now who works on what
<davidb> hajour, you mean in linux a11y?
<hajour> and give and get information from  each other
<hajour> accessibility davidb 
<davidb> one way is social apps... twitter, blogs
<davidb> i don't know of one uber-mailing list for example
<davidb> i do firefox a11y fwiw
<davidb> but i'm also interested in foss a11y generally
<hajour> ok davidb , UndiFineD  have explain to me what that mean
<hajour> he is in the same room
<davidb> UndiFineD, thanks
<UndiFineD> :)
<hajour> i have some idea s for solutions
<hajour> problems and possible solutions are on my subpage from my wiki profile page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/hajour/accesibility
<hajour> it would be nice if you would look at them.hopefully you have something on the idea s
<davidb> good.
<davidb> you should file bugs :)
<jono> hajour, sorry, was on the phone
<jono> well glad you are part of the Ubuntu family :-)
<hajour> ok .if i understand correct from UndiFineD  you mean join bugs on launchpad 
<hajour> thanks jono
<UndiFineD> but for the issues that do not have an application yet
<UndiFineD> what is she to with that
<hajour> i do my best just like anyone here on ubuntu
<UndiFineD> *todo *
<hajour> np jono . about the phone line :)
<hajour> yes i now what UndiFineD  means.
<hajour> davidb, some idea s have not yet a application.
<davidb> ok
<davidb> sorry i'm pretty busy
<hajour> davidb, .where i put that idea s ore problems?
<davidb> overloaded even :)
<davidb> Your title says ideas, which covers the topics well I think.
<hajour> davidb,  dont need to answer now.but just should appreciated you think about it
<davidb> thanks for the url hajour 
<hajour> thanks davidb 
<hajour> davidb, it should be nice others also get the link who do development/programming that sort of things
<hajour> dont need to answer right now davidb .i can read later back
<hajour> davidb, thanks for your time.
<davidb> hajour, you might want to ask around #a11y on irc.gimp.net
<hajour> ok thanks for the information davidb .
<davidb> np
<hajour> if you want something to now just drop the question :)
<davidb> got any good lotto numbers?
<hajour> i am much here in chat and in lubuntu-offtopic.
<hajour> no i wish i new
<hajour> XD
<hajour> davidb,  in launchpad is my mailadres to.so if you want to know something about what i know .just send a mail ore drop by here.
<davidb> ok
<hajour> was nice talking with you.
<davidb> ditto
<hajour> jono was nice talking to you to :)
<hajour> have to do some things.then off to sleep.i have sleep last night 1 and a half hour
<jono> hajour, and you! :)
<hajour> :)
<hajour> hai Cheri703 
<hajour> good night all
#ubuntu-accessibility 2010-12-07
<hajour> i have a idea for a memory problem with mail
<hajour> but like to exchange idea with someone who knows more from the programs attached to mail
<hajour> anyone knows wo i have to talk to about that?
<leoquant> some providers (email via a provider) limit the  amount of mb 's for email  attachements, goes this mail via your provider?
<leoquant> in your case ziggo.nl
<hajour> no for someone else
<hajour> he got a memory problem worse then me
<leoquant> ah, but it is an attachement problem?
<hajour> i wonder thats why i want to know more from it
<leoquant> i dont know how it goes via gmail
<leoquant> (par example)
<hajour> he get mail.answer it.but forget he hat answer.then he do it again .and again enz.
<hajour> i try to find him.i have heard in chat he have that problem
<leoquant> ok
<hajour> but i dont now when he is in ubuntu-beginners-offtopic chat
<hajour> i thought maybe we can solve it.but i first have to know more information
<leoquant> indeed
<hajour> thats where i am busy with now
<leoquant> so your problem now is to find him? i can take a look to?
<leoquant> *where
<hajour> his name is paultag
<leoquant>  #ubuntu-beginners
<leoquant>  #ubuntu-loco
<hajour> i have seen his name in ubuntu-beginners-team
<hajour> now i have to find out when he is there.
<leoquant> that is #ubuntu-locoteams because is the council
<hajour> but thanks leoquant 
<leoquant> oki
<hajour> a ok :)thit not know that
<hajour> just noticed the problem
<hajour> and when i see that my brains go on and on.til i solved it
<leoquant> take care hajour, take your time...
<leoquant> i am off for (koorzang)
<leoquant> christmas carols...
<leoquant> larer hajour 
<hajour> ok have fun leoquant 
<leoquant> thx!
<hajour> later leoquant 
<hajour> :)
<hajour> going off.kids come back out school in about 10 minutes. til later
#ubuntu-accessibility 2010-12-08
<AlanBell> hi Pendulum, what was the wordpress.com blog again?
<AlanBell> found it, but still can't log on
<AlanBell> can you try deleting me and re-inviting me please
<phillw> hiyas AlanBell and jono :)
<jono> hey phillw
<jono> :-)
<phillw> jono: I hope life is treating you well?
<jono> phillw, good thanks :-)
<jono> just too much email, but that is always the case :-)
<phillw> jono: join the club, and I bet I get a fraction of what you get :D
<phillw> I'm glad that the email I sent you met with your approval. 
<jono> phillw, totally :-)
<UndiFineD> jono, a shame your stream was so bad
<UndiFineD> I would have loved to listen a bit more
<UndiFineD> congrats on the donation
<phillw> jono: I will never forget http://www.jonobacon.org/2008/12/19/the-ubuntu-ethos/  It is on my Signature, although may be getting replaced with hajour's poem.
<jono> phillw, :-)
<jono> UndiFineD, so bad?
<UndiFineD> i heard 3 seconds of speech and then another 5 secs delay
<jono> ahhh
<UndiFineD> and for some reason chromium chooses to use cpu of the charts,
<UndiFineD> it is not my bandwidth
<phillw> UndiFineD: my American friend booked extra bandwidth for his Apache ceremony (He's native American), but the server just got flooded with people logging on. It was almost like a DDoS except it was people who wanted to watch and listen.
<UndiFineD> yeah, those are the best ddosses
<UndiFineD> happens to the podcast too
<UndiFineD> which is why I like to see more use of round robin dns
<phillw> live streams are always a problem, how much bandwidth and server CPU time do you buy?
<JanC> simple RRDNS is a workaround, not a solution...  ;)
<UndiFineD> but together we have all the bandwidth we need
<phillw> If they could do it as they do with torrents, that would be a massive step forward. You have a few leeches on the main feed then seeding it out.
<UndiFineD> torrented gobby ?
<phillw> torrenting things like jono's speech at UDS-N
<JanC> it would be more useful if multicast was implemented all over the internet...  ;)
<phillw> but in real time
<JanC> then the hosting server would have no more outgoing streams than it has gateways (in most cases: 1)
<UndiFineD> heh JanC but they (provider) love to charge
<JanC> UndiFineD: this would cut costs for providers too
<JanC> except that they would need to buy new network equipment  ;)
<JanC> IIRC IPv6 has better multicast support too (but I'm not a specialist in that)
<phillw> JanC: there are enough arguments going on about the 'free' transfer of video from server to server at the moment. We can only hope to find a temporary fix within the free community whilst the "Big Boys" argues it out
<phillw> I do not want to see a two tier system, which is what the current argument seems to be about.
#ubuntu-accessibility 2010-12-09
<hajour> hai Cheri703 
<Cheri703> hi
<hajour> there are comming changes in ubuntu tour Cheri703 for accessibility
<Cheri703> nice
<hajour> i was yesterday there with my mentor.
<hajour> and i was very nervous
<hajour> my introduction was not so good.but later it was going better
<Cheri703> that's good then
<phillw> Cheri703: hajour did an excellent presentation of accessibility needs, the guys who look after ubuntu-tour have taken on board what was discussed and are going to action. hajour is a star :D
<Cheri703> awesome!
<hajour> yes its just if there are many people i become nervous
<Pendulum> hajour: that's wonderful!
<hajour> thanks blushes
<hajour> its nice to know when there are results
<phillw> hiyas Pendulum, we were asked by one of the people who pop by onto #lubuntu-offtopic from that team to have a chat with them. I have a feeling that hajour may quickly find herself in demand across various teams.
 * hajour hopes she will be doing it good fore everyone
<phillw> #lubuntu-offtopic is an area where people from the various teams pop by for a chat about things, do not be a stranger. It is why the room was created. Each team has it's own area, but it's nice to have a 'neutral' one where they are welcome to get to know each other and let each other know of their own projects.
<hajour> :)
<phillw> hajour: you are doing excellent work, in both raising accessibility and being to talk to the people behind various projects / channels.
<UndiFineD> people showing interest in other peoples projects makes them feel good too
<Pendulum> cool
<Pendulum> I'm sorry I haven't been around so much for the last couple weeks. I'm going through a difficult health patch :-/
<UndiFineD> aww
<phillw> UndiFineD: it was something I hoped for on #lubuntu-offtopic, but the way various team members know just to pop in have a chat has exceeded my expectations by a long way.
<phillw> Pendulum: I'm sorry to hear that. :(
<Pendulum> phillw: it happens
<hajour> what i do is to known them where problems are and if i have possible solutions.but i also say what i find good on there project
<Pendulum> I really want to put together a blog post about "lessons from chronic illness as applied to open source" and include a link to the spoon theory, but I dunno if I will
<UndiFineD> Pendulum, where is that blog ?
<UndiFineD> I bookmarked, which means I forget
<hajour> o that not so good Pendulum  hope you will be feeling better soon
<phillw> Pendulum: having had full blown 'flu for the first time on my 48 years, I now really appreciate what being ill is like. I was not as ill when my appendix burst.
<phillw> Pendulum: we have met before? does vpolink ring a memory with you?
<phillw> Derrick was an AOL moderator.
<Pendulum> phillw: nope, have not met before as far as I know
<phillw> speak of the devil....
<Pendulum> UndiFineD: are you looking for the spoon theory blog? or my personal blog?
<UndiFineD> the accessibility blog
<phillw> I do recall discussing with the author / poster of the spoon theory about it on VPOLink
<Pendulum> phillw: I'm not the author, just a fan and someone who has been aware of it since early days (I do somewhat know Christine, but only because I've been on the message board since early days)
<Pendulum> UndiFineD: the accessibility blog is ubuntuaccessibility.wordpress.com but there's nothing on there yet
<Pendulum> for those who don't know the spoon theory it's http://www.butyoudontlooksick.com/articles/written-by-christine/the-spoon-theory-written-by-christine-miserandino/
<Pendulum> (and well worth a read)
<phillw> Pendulum: I said that a good hug and a few kind words is worth about 1/2 a spoon.
<hajour> mmm Pendulum  phillw Cheri703  i noticed that the people are more motivated if they are not only hear what needs to change because it is not good for accessibility.but also what there is good on there program
<phillw> hajour: I nearly walked away from accessibility the second time over just criticism, and no help / pointers to let me improve it.
<Pendulum> yeah, I'm hoping doing both will help
<Pendulum> because I think there's a lot of good out there :)
<Pendulum> phillw: I wish. I might then end the day with 1/2 a spoon ;-)
<hajour> and phillw  you have something on my help?:P
<UndiFineD> so you get a hug and a few kind words from all of us, then you have enough to get through tomorrow ;)
 * hajour hugs phillw 
 * hajour hugs Pendulum  and Cheri703 
<hajour> UndiFineD,  gets them in real :P
<phillw> hajour: hopefully the christmas card, with a few kind words in will count towards 1/2 a spoon.
 * Pendulum hugs hajour 
<UndiFineD> but really Pendulum, It is no fun to be sick / disabled / jobless, we do our best to make something of our days
<hajour> :D more like a full spoon 
<Pendulum> UndiFineD: and since at the moment I seem to be all 3 of those things :P ;-)
<hajour> you known i have not worked in 18 years.i thit not come further then a job interview .most of the time i even not came till there
<hajour> so i was feeling like i was nothing.they did not look further then my handicaps
<hajour> then i came here
<Pendulum> hajour: we take everyone :D
<phillw> Your paragraphs are not even using paragraph elements. This site does not pass any level of accessibility. Welcome to the limitations and mis-information of automated accessibility testing tools!Â 
<phillw> The navigation list on the left shouldÂ use list elements, which can then beÂ styled as you wish. TheÂ titleÂ attributes are repetitiveand should be removed. (Oops, got that last link direct from my bookmarks, then realisedÂ RNIB WACÂ stillÂ isn't fixed.)Â 
<hajour> and fore the first time i was treated like a full person.i don can bescribe how that feels
<phillw> after I blew my top at them, I got.... Phil, sorry for the abrupt welcome to the forum - my time here is very limited so I have to be direct in order to cover as much as possible.Â 
<Pendulum> phillw: ugh
<Pendulum> hajour: we're so glad to have you :)
<phillw> hajour: they did proceed to help me with a lot of stuff, as did a few other people.
<hajour> :)
<hajour> UndiFineD,  have told what you have writhe phillw 
<phillw> hajour: I will have a closer look at what font size to use on http://mgjuddltd.co.uk/conformance.php As the current css rules are bit in discussion, I'm not too sure how to code it without breaking all the existing compliance that I have.
<hajour> but it takes time to lose the insecureness i think
<Pendulum> phillw: btw, you don't know Flash Bristow, do you?
<hajour> ok i will do that
<phillw> Pendulum: no, I do not.
<phillw> hajour: I have seen the ability to change style sheets over, but would have to do a bit of research on it.
<Pendulum> phillw: okay, she's just someone I know in the UK who does loads of accessible web design and site testing and stuff
<hajour> the small fonts have to be a bit bigger and wider
<phillw> Pendulum: I'd have to dig through my logs to find the list of people who helped me, but http://www.accessifyforum.com/ is an excellent resource.
<Pendulum> cool
<hajour> same on that site
<phillw> Pendulum: whilst I may not seem overly active on the channel or mailing list, it does not mean I have got 'bored' of the subject. It took 3 months of blood, sweat and tears to get http://mgjuddltd.co.uk/conformance.php something that I'm very proud of. I would have accepted AA / Level 2 but was pushed to go for the AAA / Level 3 one.
<Pendulum> phillw: I didn't think you were bored or anything :)
<phillw> as part of the forthcoming php / web design classrooms that are to be held, I will be doing at least one on accessibility.
<Pendulum> cool
<hajour> nice
<phillw> if they learn to code it from day one, it is second nature to them. That is much better than have to retro-fit it.
<Pendulum> yes
<phillw> and my argument is also, it looks good on their C.V. when applying for jobs :)
<hajour> phillw, http://www.accessifyforum.com/ what is there with this one?
<phillw> what I call a win - win postion :)
<phillw> hajour: on there we can ask questions and have sites tested manually. The robot testing system is only so good. We need real people to test sites out.
<hajour> tested on what phillw ?
<Pendulum> hajour: may I PM you?
<hajour> yes
<hajour> you may Pendulum 
<phillw> to actually have a real person go and try a site out. In your case you have asked for the font size to be increased, until you asked for that it was purely being tested by blind people for navigation, you are the first person with poor eyesight to bring that issue to me.
<phillw> Pendulum: you may PM me any time, no request needed.
<UndiFineD> phillw, great idea on the accessibility inside the php class
<Pendulum> phillw: okay, thanks :)
<hajour> yes phillw  i think its great to the lesson
<hajour> ok.do you want i takea look on that site to phillw ?
<phillw> UndiFineD: tenach is dead keen on it, I've also been asked to explain about the use mysqlrealescapestring for protecting databases from hacking attacks.
<UndiFineD> \o/
<phillw> hajour: is that site easy to read to and follow?
<hajour> no
<phillw> UndiFineD: it is going to be one seriously fantastic series of classrooms.
<UndiFineD> yes I think so too
<phillw> hajour: where are you having problems? that way I can let the site owner know.
<hajour> the subject from http://www.accessifyforum.com/ are to close on eich thoter .alcohol is begin lossing effect
<phillw> hajour: okay, let's have a chat tomorrow. I want that template for the forum systems that a lot of us use to be a good one for accessibility.
<hajour> uch that standing strange here
<hajour> for info.i bin run out of medicine .in alcohol,sigarettes,coffee ans some other stuf .there are things in what also is in my medicine
<hajour> so i have use alcohol for need solution for a copple of hours.to be able to function.
<phillw> hajour: I need it in small doses all day, it keeps me functioning.
<hajour> you now what happen when it not more works
<phillw> at the age of 48, so far so good :)
<hajour> :) phillw 
<phillw> Although it does scare my customers that I can sit with them for 6 hours, they are completely drunk and it is as if I was drinking water the whole time :P
<hajour> i i prefer medicine instead of alcohol.:)
<phillw> I am the other way round. But whichever works best is the one to use.
<hajour> i don`t become drunk.
<hajour> yes you are right phillw 
<phillw> If I have 3 bottles of red wine in a couple hours, then I do start to feel the effects. Other than that, it has little effect on me.
<hajour> same phillw  i now because i noticed when i was 18.from 19 i almost never drink again alcohol.
<hajour> phillw,  may i talk to you in pm?
<phillw> Every time I move to a new pub, there are always a group of people who want to play "Get the Landlord Drunk", it only takes a couple of goes before they realise that it is not going to happen and I can drink them under the table, and be cheery the next day with no hang-over LP
<phillw> hajour: you do not ever need to ask permission to PM me
<hajour> :)
<phillw> hajour: you are my padawan, do not forget :)
<hajour> ok:)
<phillw> hiyas Pendulum
<hajour> larger and thicker fonts .the paragraphs of the separate topics needs more space between them
<hajour> first page author names have to be larger and thicker fonts
<hajour> Register,Home,Search,Memberlist,Help  also larger thicker fonts
<hajour> better and i think easier is a application for to choose color and font size
<hajour> page s from http://www.accessifyforum.com/forum2/ i mean
<hajour> from http://forum.phillw.net/index.php?sid=1068c9142fd332aa6631356f5862fedd fonts need to be thicker and larger.if possible same application  for choose size color.btw i like the colors for me they are good.but for others not.by esample color blind
<hajour> phillw, ask by ubuntu tour if they can help with that.and if they cant.they now who can possible
<phillw> hajour: I can edit the css file to alter the font size. Light text on a dark background is always easier to read.
<hajour> http://forum.phillw.net/index.php?sid=1068c9142fd332aa6631356f5862fedd the paragraphs of the separate topics needs more space between them
<hajour> yes thats true
<hajour> i have watch it like this.think you are a person.needs to work also on travel.but have a notebook.sight is not very good of the person
<charlie-tca> um, phillw. light text on dark is bad for some of us
<hajour> a notebook monitor is most not very large
<hajour> yes thats why i was saying from the application
<hajour> shal i ask for you by ubuntu tour?
<hajour> ore they want to do it for you?
<Pendulum> phillw: I've found that what works for people for contrast varies too greatly to say one way is always better than the other.
<Pendulum> Idealy websites would offer a couple different combinations
<hajour> i know how hard it is when you worked so hard on something.and then it have to be very different
<Pendulum> but I know that's not something people like to do if they don't have to
 * hajour hugs phillw 
<hajour> phillw,  is busy also helping in lubuntu-offtopic
<phillw> charlie-tca: then I will adjust the other stylesheet that is included to do a dark text on light background. Until you good people let us know what you need, we cannot do it :)
<phillw> I only write the stuff :P
<charlie-tca> We need adjustablility whenever possible. There is no good for all of us setting we have found. what works for one fails for another.
<JanC> phillw: make sure people can easily adjust with local overrides  ;)
<JanC> testing with CSS disabled might give a good idea too
<Pendulum> phillw: a website that's good at showing possible types of adjustability (although their colour combinations are horrid and their large type is not quite large enough for people) is www.bbc.co.uk/ouch
<phillw> I need a default one, so people can select their prefered style, I can have 100's of style sheets on there.
<AlanBell> how do you make the preference sticky?
<phillw> AlanBell: in the user control panel, they select the one they want to use. the forum will then remember it for them.
<phillw> for a web site, it would need a sticky cookie.
<phillw> *persistant cookie*
<hajour> not forget speech
<hajour> for blind persons
<JanC> not only for blind people, also for some people who have CFS etc.
<JanC> CFS = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronic_fatigue_syndrome
<phillw> hajour: I think I'd need to add extra programme in for that "Property voice-family doesn't exist for media screen (aural, speech)"
<hajour> yes that was a example JanC 
<phillw> But that's what orca is for?
<hajour> orca hurt my ears.maybe not others
<JanC> orca can't hurt your ears  ;)
<JanC> you mean the dutch espeak voice
<hajour> if i listen it hurts 
<hajour> metalic
<phillw> http://mgjuddltd.co.uk/conformance.php was manually tested by two blind people, who said they could navigate fine on it.
<JanC> orca doesn't talk, it sends text to a program that talks
<hajour> 2 is not all
<phillw> hajour: getting volunteers is not that easy. It was tested both on windows and ubuntu. There is a limit to what can be done without manual testing. The robots are only so good.
 * hajour never gone a use orca again if the voice  stay that they use  now
<hajour> blind school
<hajour> so easy
<JanC> hajour: most blind schools don't use Ubuntu  ;)
<hajour> you can offer
<hajour> ever asked?
<phillw> hajour: I tried out http://forum.phillw.net/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=33 for the author, he just needs some encouragement to take it to the next level.
<hajour> ok phillw nice
<hajour> on a school for bad sight and blind you have al kind of eye problems
<hajour> there is no better place to test it out
<JanC> hajour: do you have contact with such a school?
<hajour> there is one in amsterdam
<hajour> my cousin was on it.
<hajour> and UndiFineD  says also in drachten.
<hajour> thats close by where i live
<hajour> i can check it out
<hajour> but i need to know how much ubuntu programs can i offer if they ask that?
<hajour> i have no money to buy disc
<phillw> hajour: I know that there is a lot of work being put into 11.04, 10.10 is pretty good.
<phillw> hajour: I'll mail you one :D
<phillw> or, ten ;)
<hajour> to UndiFineD  then i got no much hard disc
 * hajour got a eeepc
<JanC> you are allowed to copy the Ubuntu CDs as much as you want...   ;)
<hajour> JanC,  i got no money to buy disc :)
<phillw> hajour: that is why I said I would email you some over. I can't move for the blooming things :P
<hajour> i barely can pay my bils and food enz
<JanC> the problem is: they already have PCs with Windows or maybe Mac OS X that work, why change to something that needs testing and doesn't work as well now...?
<hajour> before i hat this eeepc.i had a old pc
<JanC> hajour: I'm sure ubuntu-nl can provide you with as many CDs you need once you can convince them
<hajour> UndiFineD,  have put windows and ubuntu on it
<phillw> JanC: because for those families who are not rich and cannot afford such things it is free. Same reason as I put lubuntu on to old computers to donate to a local school for kids who's parents cannot afford a computer.
<hajour> so it can work together on 1 pc
<JanC> phillw: you don't need to convince me, but schools for the blind and blind people around here get most of the software they need paid from a government fund...
<phillw> JanC: IBM wanted 400GBP off me to use their programme for testing, I simply do not have money spare.
<hajour> ye i have ask around and call and wright to goverment.to get a laptop for my daughter she have very bad form of disalecti
<hajour> it have take me 1 year
<JanC> phillw: you mean their TTS or speech recognition?
<phillw> TTS
<phillw> the add on for mozilla firefox is no longer supported.
<hajour> uh they ask you money to test there program?
<JanC> well, I guess it's a "development kit" or something
<phillw> hajour: no, for me to use it to check that the sites I was writing were comaptible with it.
<JanC> oh
<JanC> we need better open source TTS and more voices for more languages, I guess...
<phillw> *compatible*
<JanC> but I guess there was a screenreader component to it too
<JanC> as in, interpreting HTML, CSS, etc.
<JanC> (or the DOM)
<phillw> JanC: which is why I suggested encouraging this young french guy http://forum.phillw.net/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=33
<phillw> FireVox was a decent project, but seems to have lapsed.
<JanC> shouldn't Orca be able to work with Firefox?
<JanC> maybe with the help of an extension...
<JanC> creating voices for espeak isn't exactly simple BTW
<JanC> at least, not last time I looked at it
<hajour> ask people on university who study languish to speak lines in by example
<JanC> espeak doesn't use samples
<JanC> AFAIK
<hajour> mm speak into a mike and a synthesizer use it .that system
<phillw> well, I'm going to head off and see how badly I can break my style-sheet for my forum.
<phillw> Step 1 - take a backup :D
<hajour> :) goodluck phillw 
<hajour> just think about it
#ubuntu-accessibility 2010-12-10
<hajour> AlanBell,  do you have interest in building a speech program with speech command with realistic voice?
<hajour> i am buy to set up a team.i already have 9 people and a officel channel
<hajour> buy=build
<AlanBell> sounds interesting but it is probably best to contribute to one of the existing speech engines
<AlanBell> unless there is a radical new technique
<hajour> AlanBell,  i have driven people in the team
<hajour> you have already the knowledge because you begon in past with a project like this
<AlanBell> http://www.cstr.ed.ac.uk/projects/festival/onlinedemo.html
<hajour> we already have a official channel
<AlanBell> have a listen to some of the HMM voices
<hajour> with operators
<hajour> and bot
<AlanBell> festival is actually quite good if configured right
<AlanBell> trouble is on Ubuntu I have never got festival to sound anything like as good as the online demo
<hajour> pedro3005,duanedesign,phillw,rx007,Cheri703 we already have and possible nit-wit to
<AlanBell> ok, what is the channel
<hajour> #to-make-impossible-possible
<UndiFineD> online demo is complianing about missing plugin , festival local is horrible
<AlanBell> festival local is broken
<UndiFineD> great
<UndiFineD> maybe that is killing my orca
 * UndiFineD goes whale hunting
<hajour> i have to go sleep now til later all
#ubuntu-accessibility 2010-12-11
<UndiFineD> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SpeechControl
<hajour> the new project see the line above
<UndiFineD> AlanBell, can I have meetingology in #ubuntuadverts please ? :)
<Pendulum> just something I'd think people here might find interesting: http://disabledfeminists.com/2010/12/10/more-notes-to-web-developers-how-not-to-do-rss/
<AlanBell> thanks Pendulum 
<charlie-tca> Thanks, Pendulum. that is a really good article
 * ``marianne`` shall try to read it when her head isn't all fuzzy :)
<``marianne``> disabilities that afffect mental state suck... hehe but they've adjusted my meds again
<nigelb> Pendulum: ooh, thanks :)
<hajour> hai Cheri703 
<hajour> hai davidb 
 * davidb waves
<hajour> hai leoquant .we are busy to set up teamspeak for you
<leoquant> hajour, hi
<hajour> shall that work for you leoquant ?
<leoquant> hope so 
<hajour> we can try it.
<leoquant> would be great 
<hajour> UndiFineD, is still working on it
<hajour> yes it pop upt in my mind to use something as teamspeak for you
<leoquant> UndiFineD, and you would be great in ubuntu mwanzo
<leoquant> you are very welcome to join the team
<leoquant> really
<hajour> what is mwanzo leoquant ?
<UndiFineD> leoquant, link ?
<leoquant> in dutch: begin
<leoquant> launchpad link UndiFineD ?
<leoquant> moment
<leoquant> : https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-nl-mwanzo
<leoquant> wiki: http://wiki.ubuntu-nl.org/community/mwanzo/
<hajour> going to look sec :)
<leoquant> would be great to have you on board
<leoquant> "w 'are drie weeks old now" and still growing
<leoquant> drie=three
<UndiFineD> leoquant, I am also in UBT
<leoquant> this is something different
<leoquant> we are stimulating intern. focus
<leoquant> international
<leoquant> learning basic things as IRC pgp code of conduct
<leoquant> teambuilding
<UndiFineD> leoquant, maybe better to take this to another channel :)
<leoquant> lol
<leoquant> indeed
<leoquant> i just popped in...
<leoquant> sorry
<UndiFineD> is there a mwanzo channel ?
<leoquant> moment
<hajour> i have signed in on launchpad leoquant 
<leoquant> thx
<hajour> there is nobody in chat there
<leoquant> moment hajour
<leoquant> you get an invite
<hajour> ok :)
<leoquant> got it now? otherwise:  /join #Ubuntu-nl-mwanzo
<leoquant> mind the capit. U
<hajour> i am in leoquant 
<leoquant> seen it ã
<hajour> hai jono
<hajour> jono?
<hajour> jono do we got here on ubuntu wo is outstanding good in mathematics?
<hajour> hai mhall119 
<mhall119> hi
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-12-06
<Pendulum> TheMuso: would it be possible for us to sit down sometime this week and go over some bugs to see if we can find some bitesized ones that I can blog about? I'm going to try to go over a bunch of current a11y bugs today to see if I can come up with a list that might have a few. If you have any, too, feel free to let me know.
 * joanie wonders if someone could be convinced to maintain ppas for WebKitGtk and Orca, each from master, for ubuntu 11.10 so that we can get more users testing the latest a11y goodness we're working on for Orca+Epiphany.
 * joanie pokes Pendulum, TheMuso, and AlanBell w.r.t. the above :)
 * AlanBell feels a sharp poke in the ribs
<AlanBell> I wonder if we can do the automatic recipe thing for daily builds
<joanie> I wonder what the automatic recipe thing is
<joanie> :)
<AlanBell> joanie: some special magic that does a pull from trunk and merges packaging and builds a new deb file every day
<joanie> oh, interesting
<joanie> if such magic could be used to make testing of these items easier, it would really be awesome.
<joanie> Some users who are willing to test have a hard time with things like "just pull Orca master and build it."
<joanie> So "and do the same for WebKitGtk" is a total non-starter
<AlanBell> http://blog.launchpad.net/cool-new-stuff/source-package-recipes
<AlanBell> "you can take any buildable branch â whether hosted in directly Launchpad or imported from Git, Subversion, CVS or Bazaar hosted elsewhere"
<AlanBell> sounds kinda good
 * joanie looks
<maco> im a packager and that "do the same for webkitgtk" sounds about as pleasant as building chrome or firefox
<joanie> maco: heh
<maco> (read: not very)
<AlanBell> I did set one up for dasher but it went a bit wrong and I couldn't fix it
<joanie> maco I do it and once your build environment is set up it's just a matter of going to find something else to do for an hour or so ;)
<joanie> but you see why this is a non-starter for most end users
<joanie> and yet WebKitGtk a11y is really coming along nicely 
<joanie> so that is where I'm putting my focus with Orca in terms of web content access
<joanie> but I need users testing
<joanie> I also need  to find some dinner. Early flight tomorrow.
<AlanBell> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/webkit is this webkitgtk?
<AlanBell> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~vcs-imports/webkit/trunk/files looks somewhat like the webkitgtk source, but with extra stuff
<AlanBell> ok, it is webkit trunk, including some stuff that doesn't get into webkit releases
<TheMuso> Pendulum: Sure, happy to do so. Perhaps the same time as we used to have our regular meetings, Wednesday at 20:30UTC?
<TheMuso> joanie: I'll see what I can do re webkit and Orca testing, need to get some other precise based work finished first, thats taking most of my attentino atm.
<Pendulum> TheMuso: sounds good
 * AlanBell is doing a local build of orca with a source recipe
<AlanBell> https://code.launchpad.net/~dusek/+recipe/gnome-orca-daily it is already being built daily
<AlanBell> https://code.launchpad.net/~dusek/+archive/gnome-orca-daily
<AlanBell> joanie: ^^
<AlanBell> https://code.launchpad.net/~hannes-janetzek/+archive/enlightenment-svn webkitgtk should be in this one somewhere
<AlanBell> https://code.launchpad.net/~hannes-janetzek/+recipe/ewebkit-svn it is failing to build from source though
<AlanBell> bzr: out of memory
<valorie> perhaps the Project Neon guys could be enticed into setting up the PPA, or at least helping?
<valorie> they have it down to a science for KDE
<valorie> #project-neon
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-12-07
<phillw> AlanBell: LP crashed, they are still playing catch up.
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-12-08
<mhall119> I just forwarded an email from gnome-marketing, they are looking for stories from real people who have been helped by the work that went into Gnome's accessibility, and I thought this team may have some to share
<mhall119> email is stuck in moderation though
<Pendulum> TheMuso: ^^
<TheMuso> mhall119: It has been cleared from the queue.
<mhall119> thanks TheMuso 
<TheMuso> np
<maco> so umm....to turn on the onscreen keyboard for use during ubiquity you have to use the f6 accessibility menu right? or is it f5? anyway...you have to use a keyboard...to get the keyboard
<maco> i just broke someone's brain with this
<AlanBell> maco: nope, just wait to the drums and click the accessibility symbol in the top panel
<AlanBell> then you can start onboard
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-12-11
<JackyAlcine> Evening everyone :)
<Pendulum> JackyAlcine: hiya :)
<JackyAlcine> Pendulum: guess what? (https://www.launchpad.net/speechcontrol)
 * JackyAlcine notes it's under new management.
<JackyAlcine> Expect something worthwhile in March, next year.
<Pendulum> *nods*
<Pendulum> how are you?
<Pendulum> I've missed having you around :(
<JackyAlcine> :D School and work kept me busy.
<JackyAlcine> Now that things are winding down and I got more free time; I've peeked back in.
<JackyAlcine> Trying to contribute to the people who provide me with a system that just works \o/
<Pendulum> :)
<Pendulum> We're going to try to get out some posts with a11y bitesized bugs if you're at all interested down the line in doing some more direct Ubuntu a11y stuff :)
<JackyAlcine> Oh, of course, sounds like a terrific appetizer :)
#ubuntu-accessibility 2012-12-03
<phillw> Hi folks, is there a way to control the mouse pointer with keypad ? This is for someone who has a motor disability
<phillw> I've tried installing mousetrap, but it coredumps when I try to run it.
<Pendulum> phillw: I don't think so. I think the best you can do is use key commands for things rather than try to use the mouse at all.
<phillw> hmm, okies.. looks like they're stuck with windows then.
<AlanBell> phillw: in the universal access dialog there is a setting for mouse keys on the pointing and clicking tab
<AlanBell> it is pretty rubbish, far too slow for practical use
<AlanBell> but it means the mouse cursor can be moved around using the numeric keypad
<phillw> hi AlanBell is that something like http://www.tuxfiles.org/linuxhelp/movecursor.html ?
<Pendulum> Is there a good solution for it for Windows? I honestly don't know people who can't use a mouse who use the kayboard for it instead
<AlanBell> I sometimes use it for precision graphics stuff as it is easy to move one cursor at a time
<AlanBell> one pixel at a time rather
<Pendulum> err, as in, the people I know just don't even try to control a mouse generally
<Pendulum> if they do, they'll do something like a stylus on a track pad
<AlanBell> phillw: yeah, like that or like this http://answers.oreilly.com/topic/1418-how-to-control-a-mouse-using-the-keyboard-in-ubuntu/
<AlanBell> I think we have dropped the accelleration setting, thereby making it a bit useless
<phillw> Pendulum: I'm not fully aware of the motor disability of the person on who's behalf this has been asked. Evidently they can use a keyboard & number pad, but not a mouse (A roblemt with grip?)
<phillw> *problem
<AlanBell> shift+numlock turns it on/off
<phillw> which keyboard panel is that (lubuntu's doesn't have the option - so I'll need to grab the gnome one)
<AlanBell> it is a gnome feature, if shift+numlock doesn't work then it probably doesn't exist in lxde
<phillw> yeah, I think I need to use the gnome keyboard preferences tool.
<AlanBell> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mouse_keys
<AlanBell> alt+shift+numlock might work
<phillw> tried :( 
<phillw> AlanBell:  found the fix for lack of acceleration :) http://www.exuro.co.uk/2012/mouse-keys-in-ubuntu-12-04/
<phillw> what is the name of the universal access module (again. lubuntu does not shift this by default)?
<AlanBell> interesting
<AlanBell> it is part of gnome-control-center
<phillw> I've installed gnome-control-center but no sign of universal access (I'm invoking it from terminal)
<phillw> may need to re-start 'X' to pull in the changes.... let me quickly reboot (sledge hammer approach :P )
<phillw> hmm, still no sign of universal access :/
<AlanBell> phillw: do you have the file /usr/lib/control-center-1/panels/libuniversal-access.so
<AlanBell> it should be in the gnome-control-centre package
<phillw> AlanBell: phillw@piglet:/usr/lib/control-center-1/panels$ ls
<phillw> libuniversal-access.so
<phillw> so. yeah.. it's there?
<phillw> AlanBell: the full listing is at http://pastebin.com/F5936AfK
<AlanBell> hmm, well that is it, that should cause the accessibility icon to turn up in gnome-control-center
<AlanBell> so what do you see in gnome-control-center?
<phillw> AlanBell: please bear in mind lubuntu does not have the 'refinements' you're used to... this is a simple screen-dump :) http://imagebin.org/238043
<AlanBell> mine looks like this http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/screenshots/Screenshot%20from%202012-12-03%2019:40:58.png
<AlanBell> so you only have one icon in each section, which is odd
<AlanBell> there kind of should be one for each thing in /usr/lib/control-center-1/panels
<phillw> yeah, and 'really' odd... the printer section even recognised my default printer which is not even plugged in !
<phillw> yeah, that screen shot looks like what I was expecting to see.
<AlanBell> gnome-control-center universal-access
<AlanBell> try running that
<AlanBell> it should jump straight to that panel
<phillw> phillw@piglet:/usr/lib/control-center-1/panels$ gnome-control-center universal-access
<phillw> ** (gnome-control-center:3880): WARNING **: Could not find settings panel "universal-access"
<phillw> ** (gnome-control-center:3880): WARNING **: Could not load setting panel "universal-access": Unknown error
<AlanBell> hmm, so not just an icon display issue
<phillw> can you check on your system, they are all permissions root-root 644 in the /usr/lib/control-center-1/panels area?
<AlanBell> yeah
<phillw> AlanBell: I have a back-trace, do you want me to raise a bug?
<AlanBell> go for it
<phillw> AlanBell: against gnome-control-center ?
<AlanBell> yeah, probably
<phillw> AlanBell: please feel free to add any comments to bug 1086134
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 1086134 in gnome-control-center (Ubuntu) "gnome-control-center will not run correctly in lubuntu" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1086134
<phillw> AlanBell: can you let me know if http://www.exuro.co.uk/2012/mouse-keys-in-ubuntu-12-04/ solves the problem of using a keypad for mouse control for it to change the acceleration of the mouse. Thanks, Phill.
<AlanBell> works a treat :)
<AlanBell> Bug #1086152
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 1086152 in gnome-control-center (Ubuntu) "mouse keys lacks acceleration" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1086152
<phillw> AlanBell: great news, so as his computer can (and does) run windows system, Ubuntu + that patch is a workable solution for him (and possibly, others). I know I don't land on here too often, but a11y is in my blood & I'm really cheered to have found the report as to why acceleration suddenly vanished. I know it happens, a tiny sub-programme falls off the build list... We've had it happen in lubuntu!
<phillw> that bug is a simple "fell off the build list for the iso" and requires about zero checking to be be put back in.
<AlanBell> bit more than that, there is no UI for it in gnome-control-center
<AlanBell> but it doesn't look massively hard, certainly
<phillw> as a workaround, it can be added to your wiki area :)
<phillw> I'll pull the ubuntu-iso tonight and kick it into a VM (Slow link, takes ~5 hours to get the new & improved Ubuntu DVD image).
<phillw> Lubuntu + a11y may be a longer term issue... I'm perplexed as to why some of gnome-control-center works, and the rest does not. for the 'stuff' we are trying to call, that is built into 'X' itself.
<phillw> I'll give julien a very gentle dig in the ribs to see if he has any immediate ideas.
<phillw> AlanBell: a very unusual request, and one you are free to decline. But... may I have meetingology in ##phillw It is not there for a 'badge' just so that people can bounce ideas around in a structured manner.
<AlanBell> I would rather keep it in #ubuntu-* channels, but you can set up a clone
<phillw> AlanBell: okies, I'll ask Unit193 - he looks after bots.. his bot on #lubuntu-offtopic seems pretty good. They run off my dedicated server, I'm sure he will sort something out.
<phillw> BTW, you have a really good guy on IRC with him :)
#ubuntu-accessibility 2012-12-08
<Fudge> AlanBell is lubuntu accessibility coming along further? just read channel hisotory between yourself and phillw
<AlanBell> not sure fudge, I have not tried lubuntu yet
<Fudge> I need something for my netbook, it is extremely slow with gnome3
<Fudge> currently have quantal on it
<Fudge> dont really want to revert to a lucid install
<Fudge> no ideas AlanBell ?
#ubuntu-accessibility 2012-12-09
<AlanBell> not sure really, I just use Gnome
<Fudge> could try classic maybe
<Fudge> or that mate project
<AlanBell> cinnamon or something
<AlanBell> I found that more ram and an SSD was a huge upgrade for my laptop
<Fudge> but this thing may or may not be worth doing, the screens shagged and has 1gig ram
<Fudge> would have to spend 70 aud just to replace screen and another 25 for 2gig stick of ram which then it woudl owe me 150 aud for yet a slow computer
