#ubuntu-artwork 2006-01-31
<artnay> klepas: 
<artnay> howdy
<artnay> mhz_food: 
<artnay> klepas_: 
<klepas_> hey artnay 
* klepas_ is at lca 2006
<artnay> how is it?
<artnay> aren't you busy or anything? ;)
<artnay> blaeh ;)
<klepas> still there?
<klepas> the wireless connection here is somewhat flacky :)
<artnay> no prob
<artnay> yep, I'm still here for some time. I currently have two broken PCs at home
<klepas> having so much fun here
<klepas> met Mark Shuttleworth
<klepas> having coffee with him tomorrow
<klepas> also met jeff and andy
<klepas> lots of fun :)
<artnay> hey AndyFitz, did you have your presentation already?
<AndyFitz> hiya artnay  yeah  it was fun
<derek[] > hi
<derek[] > what was fun?
<AndyFitz> about to go to bed  but I think people got something from it :)
<AndyFitz> linux.conf.au
<derek[] > k
<derek[] > AndyFitz, look in synfig
<derek[] > chan
<Kwiat> hi there
<Kwiat> id like to offer my help in regard to graphic design tasks
<Kwiat> perhaps you got a little interesting task for me?
<artnay> hey Kwiat 
<artnay> actually we all are waiting for tasks to be given
<artnay> Kwiat: have you taken a look at wiki?
<artnay> anyways, I'd suggest to start with that
<artnay> AndyFitz: so, new icons? ;)
<artnay> hi lukacu 
<lukacu> hi
<Kwiat> you're all waiting?
<Kwiat> there should be a plenty of tasks to work on
<artnay> Kwiat: well we all can go ahead and do whatever we want to
<Kwiat> thats nice
<artnay> but there's no guarantee it will ever make into "ubuntu artwork"
<AndyFitz> yeah.  hang tight on my involvement ( I know I'm pissing people off .. sorry  i'll hurry )  
<Kwiat> artnay: mh, who decides that?
<artnay> we've been asking for a branding guide that canonical was supposed to publicize
<AndyFitz> artnay,  will get back on here for news 
<artnay> but there's no word on that (for last, umh, half a year)
<Kwiat> f.e. how was decision made to include a new standard wallpaper in breezy badger?
<artnay> Kwiat: canonical devs are responsible for what is being included in the default cd media
<AndyFitz> heh i'll see if I can ask that tomorrow  ( maybe  I get to talk to mark   at this conference I'm at 
<artnay> and mark s. has the final word to be said
<AndyFitz> artnay  if I get a change i'll winge / ask 
<artnay> Kwiat: no idea. AFAIK, it wasn't public
<AndyFitz> ciao mate  I've got to get to bed  its 2am
<Kwiat> artnay: thanks
<artnay> AndyFitz: it would be nice if you guys could urge canonical devs in this matter
<AndyFitz> will pimp hard as I can   night 
<artnay> we really need to get this going and I see progress unless somebody tells what should be done. we need to focus on some things
<artnay> see no progress...
<Kwiat> artnay: could it be that just someone submitted the wallpaper to gnomeArt and it was chosen by someone at canonical?
<artnay> Kwiat: I don't think so
<artnay> I mean, flight 3 had some graphical changes
<Kwiat> so someone inside canonical did it?
<artnay> but I haven't been able to find any information how they got included
<Kwiat> mh
<artnay> I've looked at several MLs and wiki pages
<artnay> Kwiat: I guess some canonical dev did it
<Kwiat> mh, ok
<artnay> same thing with the notification bubble (which I considered as a joke)
<artnay> just like the Usplash screen before the first flight
<artnay> you all know the notorious nofitication bubble, right? ;)
<artnay> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DapperFlight3
<artnay> Screenshot 7: New Restart Notification Bubble
<artnay> that came out of blue, I could say
<artnay> well one should be a full-time developer in order to be up-to-date with dapper info
<Kwiat> ihhh
<Kwiat> looks ugly
<artnay> it does
<Kwiat> never seen it before
<artnay> so I naturally thought it was a joke
<artnay> here's people bashing it big time: http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=118626
<Kwiat> my breezy badger release doesn't seem to have this one
<Kwiat> my bubble always looks quite simple
<artnay> no, it's included in dapper
<Kwiat> for god's sake
<artnay> there's lots of things in dapper that artwork team should focus on
<artnay> for instance that notification bubble should be included in ArtworkTodoList
<Kwiat> well we should better stay with badger if this bubble would make it into dapper
<artnay> hehe ;)
<Kwiat> i agree
<Kwiat> where's this artworktodolist you mentioned to find?
<artnay> but klepas told be he would discuss about this issue at LCA
<artnay> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtworkTodoProposal
<artnay> oh, four votes for the meeting date... that will do ;)
<artnay> please people, keep wiki updated
<artnay> I'm not able to do that at the moment as my machines are fcuked up
<Kwiat> im on this wikipage right now
<Kwiat> well interesting
<Kwiat> is anyone allowed to add some suggestions and ideas?
<artnay> take your time with wiki, although it's not official what you find there
<artnay> Kwiat: sure, that's mostly my ideas/comments there
<artnay> feel free to register and edit when needed
<Kwiat> nice
<artnay> it's sad that we haven't even be able to create discussion on those topics
<Kwiat> are you some kinda admin round here?
<artnay> not an admin, not a ubuntu member, just a user that is interested in helping ubuntu a way or another
<Kwiat> weee, youre from finland
<Kwiat> thats nice
<artnay> and I thought artwork, translation and documentation could be areas where I'd be able to help
<Kwiat> i planned to go there on vacation in a few years
<artnay> one tip, take your trip here in july
<artnay> or if you want snow and some minus degress, my bet would be january or february
<Kwiat> :D
<Kwiat> july - there would be quite a lot of mosquitos around i guess?
<Kwiat> due to the fact of lakes everywhere
<artnay> depends on where you go. in southern finland it's warm and lots of beautiful women
<artnay> but if you go north, you'll meet mosquitos
<artnay> north is great in wintertime, lots of snow and some pretty decent hills
<artnay> anyways, I have to get going soon
<Kwiat> leaving this channel?
<artnay> I remember when I first interested in ubuntu artwork, there really wasn't any information available
<Kwiat> or what did you mean?
<artnay> no, 24/7 here (screen)
<artnay> I'll leave the keyboard ;)
<Kwiat> :D
<Kwiat> ok
<Kwiat> some years ago
<artnay> since that things haven't changed much. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork - http://art.ubuntu.com - https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art and http://www.ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=16 are the main resources
<Kwiat> i had the same problems as you finding something to work on related to gnome
<artnay> we're quite disorganised at the moment (it's a pity), but it's great if you're willing to help
<Kwiat> i worked with some other guys on the last update of art.gnome.org
<artnay> I don't use GNOME that much, only on laptop (occasionally)
<Kwiat> i sketched out the concept of the menu structure and did a little help
<Kwiat> oh wel
<artnay> KDE for me ;)
<Kwiat> what else do you use?
<Kwiat> ah ok
<Tm_T> KDE <3
<Kwiat> you're more on the kubuntu-site?
<artnay> and what else? XFCE, E17 and fluxbox
* Tm_T is testing pekwm atm
<Kwiat> ok
<artnay> Kwiat: not actually, I'm interested in both
<Kwiat> xfce is fast, isnt it?
<Kwiat> didnt checked it out for myself so far
<artnay> it is
<Kwiat> gotta test this
<Tm_T> sucky, pypanel seems to be unworking in dapper
<artnay> although I'm a KDE user, I'm all into human theme
<Kwiat> whats your distribution of choice?
<Kwiat> ubuntu?
<artnay> ubuntu, suse and debian, gentoo didn't impress me that much
<artnay> red hat 5.2 back in -99 (if I remember correctly), that was my first take
<Kwiat> red hat was my first take, too
<artnay> now I'm on the verge of trying the latest fedora
<Kwiat> got it from a magazine's cover
<artnay> I bought one
<Kwiat> these were the days of modems ;)
<artnay> and ISDN connections... and catastrophal phone bills
<Kwiat> do like ubuntu very much
<Kwiat> in deed :D
<artnay> http://www.ubuntuforums.org/gallery/showimage.php?i=1600 - brown for me
<Kwiat> perhaps i do like ubuntu just because it was the first time beeing on linux with dls
<Kwiat> thats your screen?
<artnay> it WAS
<artnay> now the piece of **** will reboot even while in BIOS...
<Kwiat> as for it was a long-time kde-favoring distrubution, suse should be your choice, should it?
<artnay> well it works better than kubuntu
<Kwiat> or how is ubuntu doing with kde running?
<artnay> it's faster due the optimazions
<Kwiat> ok
<Kwiat> i should go on programming for some time now
<artnay> ubuntu and kde... it's getting better although there were quite big problems with the latest release
<Kwiat> well meet here again, soon
<artnay> yep, take care
<Kwiat> it was a pleasure
<Kwiat> you too
<Kwiat> bye
<artnay> bye
<artnay> well I'm off as well, bye guys (and please update some wiki pages! :>)
<artnay> btw, luckily I have /home on a separate partition...
<artnay> hey
<artnay> desktop team
<artnay> damn laptop ;(
<artnay> anyways, desktop teams ML seems o have some artwork related topics, be sure to take a look at it
<artnay> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-desktop/2006-January/thread.html
<artnay> to quote henrik: "IMHO several of the default 
<artnay> Gnome themes should be retired"
<artnay> ok guys, I just had a chat with some canonical devs
<artnay> it seems that there actually is not any experts doing a new icon set for dapper
<lukacu> :)
<artnay> and there are no plans. if we want something to happen, lets get it going
<artnay> so, comment like crazy those topics on ArtworkTodoList
<artnay> this is something we should bring on when the meeting takes place
<artnay> we have something like 45-50 days remaining
<lukacu> and the meeting is on february 2nd?
<artnay> seems so
<artnay> wiki has to be updated asap
<artnay> shall we make a new wiki page for icon set?
<lukacu> yes :)
<artnay> my suggestion would be using andys earlier icon sets and combining tango with ubuntu palette
<artnay> anybody could contribute there
<artnay> but the license would be a problem. it has to be CC-SA 2.5 and andys icons are GPL
<artnay> but he is such a nice guy that he will most probably give a permission/relicense
<lukacu> :)
<artnay> humility was nice, although device icons have to be reworked
<lukacu> where can we get those iconsets?
<artnay> but then, tango is using quite nice device icons
<lukacu> the old ones
<artnay> how about giving some ubuntu palette to those?
<artnay> umh, I might have them on my HD
<artnay> on my primary desktop which is currently unfunctional :)
<lukacu> we need a repository then
<artnay> andy has those
<artnay> the /msg I got was pretty much "we do not have any guidelines to be given. create what you can and then show it us"
<artnay> oh, one thing. it has to be brown
<artnay> ;)
<lukacu> thats ok ... the importiant thing is that there are no pros working on this project
<artnay> I will update some wiki pages now
<artnay> you mean experts?
<lukacu> well ... yes 
<artnay> :)
<artnay> well I have seen lots of good artwork contributions here and there
<artnay> it it just so disorganized
<lukacu> yes ... we need a repository :D
<artnay> for what?
<lukacu> for icons :)
<artnay> we have wiki for unfinished work (take the same approach as tango has) and AUC for material that is considered to be published
<lukacu> um ... i am not sure that the wiki is the best solution for that
<artnay> neither I am
<lukacu> for sn individual it is ok
<lukacu> damn ... no 'sn'
<lukacu> :)
<artnay> what are you thinking? cvs?
<lukacu> or svn
<artnay> yeah, I get your point
<artnay> anyways, first we should see what andy has done so far
<artnay> create teams for each topic, have people to focus on these issues
<lukacu> i am still waiting for klepas to send me that mail about auc :)
<lukacu> will be a month now :D
<artnay> :o
<artnay> according to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtworkTeam, there is at least five people interested in a icon set
<artnay> a an...
<lukacu> there were some people asking about that on ML too
<artnay> I saw that too
<lukacu> i was unable to give them info about the old iconset ...
<lukacu> so i am not sure if they are still listening
<artnay> I will ask andy to upload human and humility somewhere
<artnay> they both are based on etiquette which is available at gnome-look.org etc.
<artnay> anyways, the most important thing is that we need to be able inform others and that one has to be made well
<artnay> I remember back in breezy dev days when there was not much information on artwork
<artnay> people might think it is taken care of somewhere by some guys...
<artnay> no, we need to address that there is lots of work to be done and we need ideas, comments and most importantly contributions
<artnay> the lack of information, that I consider to be the biggest failure back then
<artnay> one thing would be writing a thread to ubuntuforums a la "Things YOU can do before dapper hits the mirrors"
<artnay> to ubuntu art talk section
<artnay> ok, I updated some wiki pages
<artnay> my gf is coming this way so I will continue later today or tomorrow at latest
<artnay> btw, this is where the current notification bubble is coming: http://www.galago-project.org/news/index.php
<artnay> that could be added to TodoList etc.
<artnay> it is themable from now on, I was just reading the specs...
#ubuntu-artwork 2006-02-01
<artnay> ok, I made some wiki updates
<artnay> shall we make an agenda for the meeting now?
<Tm_T> artnay: ping
<viller> hi
<Tm_T> hullo
<artnay> Tm_T: pong
<Tm_T> artnay: anything to improve? http://kapsi.fi/~tm_travolta/kuvat/temp/foo-01.png
<Tm_T> I think bit more contrast to paper part of it
<artnay> that is nice, good work on that
<Tm_T> yeah, I finally did something, 5min gimping mostly
<artnay> maybe the clip could use ubuntus palette?
<artnay> like brown or smth
<Tm_T> hehe
<Tm_T> that is for Kopete ;)
<Tm_T> and will be used only 16x16
<artnay> nah, do not be so sure of that ;) svg available?
<Tm_T> nope
<artnay> :(
<Tm_T> but I can try to make one if needed, it's guite simple afterall
<Tm_T> quite even
<Tm_T> and with svg everyone will be able to read the text there =)
<Tm_T> another issue, related to fonts
<Tm_T> artnay: have you any idea where one important font disappeared?
<Tm_T> -misc-fixed-medium-r-semicondensed--*-*-*-*-c-*-*-* <- not found anymore in dapper, was in breezy and long after it
<artnay> sorry, no idea
<artnay> in which package was it in breezy?
<artnay> actually I am running breezy on this laptop
<Tm_T> hmm, no idea, but osd_cat (xosd program) doesn't work without it
<Tm_T> and I have ~all font packages installed
<artnay> dpkg: *misc-fixed-medium-r-semicondensed* not foundsdpkg: *misc-fixed-medium-r-semicondensed* not foundfuck this
<artnay> terrible lag
<Tm_T> "foundfuck" ?
<Tm_T> meh
<Tm_T> artnay aka foundfuck
<artnay> :p
<Tm_T> ] ;=
<artnay> no, really. just lagging
<Tm_T> yeah yeah
<Tm_T> so, font name is "fixed"
<artnay> shouldnt it be in x11 fonts?
<artnay> how have you been able to aptget osd_cat if it depends on certain font that is not available? :o
<artnay> broken deps?
<Tm_T> no idea
<Tm_T> or, that font is dropped from package what is xosd's dependencies
<Tm_T> artnay: you have kio-apt? apt:/show?xosd-bin
<artnay> blah, once again ssh died
<Tm_T> hehe
<artnay> no, running gnome at the moment (I really do not know why)
<artnay> kios are wonderful :)
<Tm_T> aye :)
<artnay> I really need to get my primary comp fixed, without it I am not able to do much
<Tm_T> ok, depends:   libc6 (>= 2.3.4-1), libx11-6, libxext6, libxinerama1, libxosd2 (>= 2.2.13)
<Tm_T> so no fonts directly in dependencies
<artnay> maybe it is a bug
<artnay> launchpad... ;)
<Tm_T> ;(
<Tm_T> libxosd suggest:   xfonts-base-transcoded
<Tm_T> so, I'll try reinstall that package
<Tm_T> Reinstallation of xfonts-base-transcoded is not possible, it cannot be downloaded.
<Tm_T> :(
<Tm_T> so, that package is not in mirrors anymore
<Tm_T> artnay: looks like whole punch of abse fonts are gone from dapper mirrors
<Tm_T> xfonts-100dpi-transcoded xfonts-75dpi-transcoded both gone
<artnay> try packages ubuntu
<artnay> if breezy had them
<Tm_T> aye
<Tm_T> I try first finnish mirrors, looks like se. is fucked anyway
<Tm_T> Uriah Heep - Rain
<Tm_T> artnay: hum, no, not even in breezy :o
<Tm_T> artnay: those packages are installed since hoary here :o
<Tm_T> but, why they're not provided in breezy and dapper?
<artnay> Tm_T: no idea
<Tm_T> artnay: I have small idea, "because with utf-8 you don't need them"
<Tm_T> but I have ISO8859-15 locales
<Tm_T> and no way I'm moving to utf-8 without reinstalling all
<Tm_T> and we can't expect all users have utf-8 locales
<artnay> yep
<Tm_T> artnay: aye, I file abug, and maybe provide packages too ;(
#ubuntu-artwork 2006-02-03
<klepas> artnay_: heya
<klepas> artnay: :)
<klepas> anyone awake?
#ubuntu-artwork 2006-02-04
<klepas> artnay_: ping
<klepas> artnay: ping
<artnay> hey guys
<artnay> have you seen what has happened with wiki?
<artnay> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/?action=fullsearch&context=180&value=artwork&titlesearch=Titles
<artnay> henrik has been quite busy
<artnay> I urge you all to check the new pages
<artnay> how come I find it to be much more complicated now... it only focuses on ubuntu and leaves out all other *buntu flavours
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-artwork:artnay] : lots of changes: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/?action=fullsearch&value=artwork&titlesearch=Titles
<klepas> artnay_: ping
#ubuntu-artwork 2006-02-05
<theCore> is there someone alive here ?
<Tm_T> never
<theCore> ok then ... 
<theCore> the art team doesn't seem strong 
<Tm_T> true
<Tm_T> we do need more active users
<Tm_T> and I need time and money to do some artwork
<Tm_T> s/users/workers
<Tm_T> hi omeg 
<artnay> Tm_T: 
<Tm_T> artnay:
<artnay> what do you think of wiki?
<Tm_T> haven't checked
<Tm_T> and can't now
<artnay> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork
<artnay> you should
<Tm_T> I will when I'm home
<artnay> where is klepas... the meeting will be held soon and there's no agenda yet :|
<artnay> do you guys want to help with that?
<Tm_T> cant
<Tm_T> I afraid
<buggzero> o.0?
<Tm_T> exactly
<buggzero> this place must be full of live ones
<Tm_T> all dead
<buggzero> what do you have to do to sign up for this gang
<Tm_T> just poke artnay for example
<Tm_T> but dont poke too hard, I'd rahter see him alive
<buggzero> poke?
<Tm_T> too much typos, food ->
<buggzero> what about a tap
<buggzero> or a prod
<artnay> buggzero: hello, what's on your mind?
<artnay> really, no comments on new wiki style?
<artnay> anyone?
<buggzero> well
<buggzero> i read the artwork team todo list doohickey
<buggzero> i want to sign up?
<artnay> sure, go ahead
<buggzero> how does one do that
<buggzero> im like new to all of this
<buggzero> well not everything
<buggzero> linux
<artnay> AFAIK henrik removed all names from the list
<artnay> so so...
<artnay> s/removed/moved
<artnay> to this page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtTeam/Members
<artnay> add yourself there and hang on this channel
<artnay> feel free to ask any questions
<buggzero> how do i add myself?
<artnay> first of all, you need to have an account
<artnay> I guess there's "signup" in the upper right corner
<buggzero> oh... so thats what that things for
<artnay> use that account to access launchpad.net and edit wiki pages
<buggzero> i figureed you8 were talking about a bank account
<artnay> you might want to give me your visa verification code :p
<buggzero> 12345
<buggzero> okay but how does one actually take on projects and what not
<artnay> first thing would be to form a team to do some task
<artnay> what were you thinking? which projects interest you?
<artnay> read this: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtworkTeam/TodoList
<artnay> adding (project, *buntu) after your name on contact page will make the start easier for each team
<artnay> don't get disappointed because of the current state
<artnay> we would need at least 10 active people participating in order to get this process going
<artnay> glad you found your way here :)
<artnay> AUC to be wiki-based... why am I a bit skeptic of that?
<artnay> I think it needs a working rating system, otherwise searching will get complicated when there's lots of contributions
<artnay> why am I having a monolog here? let's have a discussion :o
<buggzero> sorry theres a xfiles marathon on hd and its the funny one with alex trabeck
<artnay> hehe :)
<buggzero> ok but where does open submit the product
<buggzero> i mean is it self proclaimed?
<buggzero> i mean i just want some designs included in the next release i thought that would be pretty bad ass
<artnay> so you want actually do something? or would like to get what has been done so far?
<buggzero> yeah it all seems in a little disarray
<buggzero> what?  I want to design, takle some stuff on the todo list
<artnay> which tasks are you interested in?
<buggzero> well i come from a print and web backround
<buggzero> so i would assume splash screens, and the themes and backrounds
<buggzero> loading screens
<artnay> background, that would be a necessity
<buggzero> also the thing about a new fonts
<buggzero> about a new font
<artnay> that's a bit more compilated issue
<artnay> but still it's really something worth of thinking
<buggzero> well all the fonts i have so far are similar
<artnay> splash screen is quite good actually, and there has been a few new well done splash screens
<artnay> so I doubt that it's pretty well covered already, although you can always improve what has been done or create a new one
<artnay> if you ask me, there are a few tasks that we should focus on
<artnay> unify Usplash, GDM and desktop (this includes colours and shapes)
<buggzero> are you like the leader, high chief?
<artnay> not that I know :)
<artnay> but I guess I'm one of the most active ones involved in this process
<artnay> so those weren't facts, just my opinions
<artnay> well not just mine, actually ubuntu devs want to keep the current or at least similiar to current Usplash theme
<buggzero> well ill take them as facts
<buggzero> okay keep in mind im new to ubuntu so whast the u splash?
<artnay> are you running ubuntu? have you booted ubuntu?
<buggzero> yeah im running it
<buggzero> wait
<artnay> ok, so it's the process that starts after grub
<buggzero> thats the one with the four flag like squares
<artnay> when kernel is loading, there's some brown text that tells you what's happening on your system
<buggzero> yeah the loader
<artnay> yep, the one that's active before the high colour graphical greeter (login manager)
<buggzero> allright so they want a new one?
<artnay> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Usplash/Artwork
<artnay> actually I think people are quite happy with the current one
<artnay> as it is used in gfxboot as well
<buggzero> 14 colors!
<artnay> I know, framebuffer is the limit here
<artnay> it has to be so it works well on the most hardware configurations
<buggzero> well i always thought it would be cooler if the logo was the loading progress
<artnay> there's alternatives to usplash, but they leave a nice share of computers with error msgs etc.
<artnay> so by default ubuntu will use usplash, it can be changed after the installation
<buggzero> well so waht if we stick with uspash's code but just changed the img?
<artnay> what do you mean by logo being the loading process?
<buggzero> instead of a rectangle being filled left to right
<buggzero> the logo gets colored in a circular fashion
<artnay> then people would focus on ubuntu text, not the logo actually
<buggzero> well just thinking of something different
<artnay> true, that's more than welcome
<artnay> or then we could use icons instead of the progress bar, sort os x way
<buggzero> i mean its a loading screen, so someting more entertaining is always interesting
<artnay> but I don't see that happening
<buggzero> well when gnome loads it shows icons
<artnay> I get your point, but it's extremely dangerous to play with the logo in a process like that
<artnay> what if something fails? it leaves you with "half ubuntu" :)
<artnay> and fallbacks to command line
<buggzero> ubuntu OG's will be awestruck across the globe
<artnay> OG? :o
<buggzero> origninal gangster
<artnay> hah ;)
<buggzero> i mean i think back to windows 98
<buggzero> where we took the orignal loader
<artnay> isn't xp still using low colours as well?
<buggzero> and we made and xwing and a tie figher in combat, and used the lazer blasts as the progress bar
<buggzero> yeah its only like 24 colors or something
<artnay> have you tried other distros? some use kernel hacks that allow the use of high colour images
<buggzero> screw other distros
<artnay> hehe :)
<buggzero> ubuntu is the first one ive really liked
<buggzero> i hate kde
<buggzero> plus all the pros i know they use debian
<buggzero> so this was the middle ground
<artnay> I've been quite happy with ubuntu, although dapper is showing some really unpleaseant changes
<buggzero> im just glad to give microsoft the finger
<buggzero> well if we control the art maybe we can bring down this tyranny
<buggzero> what are they proposing that is so bad?
<artnay> for me XP has worked technically quite well (although it has been limiting my use), I'm not using MS products home because of their business practices
<buggzero> yeah it seems like its getting more and more invasion of privacy, using linux is the new fashion statment
<artnay> umh, mainly their monopoly is what causes headaches to me
<buggzero> yeah i mean they have the boardwalk, park place, the railroads
<artnay> many things, like not publicizing protocols, patenting fat after a long time, not supporting open standards, doing things MS way or the highway etc etc
<buggzero> so whats looking down about dappy
<artnay> oh, the negative parts?
<buggzero> yeah
<artnay> you should try flight 3 so you would know
<buggzero> flight 3?
<artnay> I know it's a development version, but there's many things that won't most probably be ready before dapper
<artnay> look at the gnome-screensaver and gnome-xchat for instance
<artnay> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DapperFlight3
<buggzero> someone told me downloading dapper now would break your shit
<artnay> try live CD instead
<artnay> I was using dapper on my desktop machine before it broke down
<artnay> the machine itself, well so did dapper :)
<buggzero> what the hell some of their new menus look ugly as hell
<artnay> ethernet was lost and my computer kept rebooting every 30 sec or so
<artnay> so I didn't have time to fix it
<buggzero> gnome-xchat UGH
<buggzero> thats a bummer
<artnay> and the logout icon in panel
<buggzero> well were the damn art group, dont we have a say to pimp slap some of this stuff?
<artnay> I think that a button that is used once per session shouldn't be placed in gnome-panel that way
<artnay> sure we do
<artnay> those changes just happened, we really didn't know anything before it just happened
<artnay> so it would be great if we did the artwork job and the coders could focus on, umh, code
<artnay> oh yeah, the main priorities... background, icon set, metacity theme
<artnay> at least those tasks should be done for dapper
<buggzero> well thats good to hear
<buggzero> metacity?
<artnay> that's the one drawing window decorations, buttons there etc.
<artnay> http://www.gnome-look.org/index.php?xsortmode=high&page=0
<artnay> there's some metacity themes, pick a suitable one for dapper x)
<artnay> I'd go with unity-no-red
<buggzero> metacity is the window style?
<artnay> yep
<buggzero> i like the pixel looks
<buggzero> the unity one is decent, i dont see the no red one
<buggzero> but i hate the picture backround for terminal
<artnay> just image the same decorations without close button being red
<artnay> I guess it's not terminal background, terminal is just using fake transparency so it's actually desktop background that is visible
<buggzero> i like the rectangular buttons
<buggzero> those are sweet
<artnay> hey manu :)
<lmanul> artnay: hey :)
<artnay> so we'll have a meeting on the 2nd
<artnay> are you able to attend?
<buggzero> feb 2nd?
<artnay> 23 UTC
<artnay> henrik just changed the whole layout of artwork wiki
<lmanul> Hmm, yeah sure
<artnay> as time is running out, we need to discuss the main priorites and form teams to do separate tasks
<lmanul> I probably won't stay for ages (that's pretty late in my time zone), but I'll come, no problem
<artnay> yep, it's 01 AM here then :o
<lmanul> I'm not sure I'll get some time to contribute a lot though...
<artnay> I suggest that we'd focus on background, icon set and metacity theme
<artnay> everythis else is (needed) extra
<buggzero> well i got nothing but time
<lmanul> But I'll be glad to attend the meeting, listen, and give my opinion if needed
<lmanul> buggzero: now that's rare :)
<buggzero> well WHICH IS NOT TO SAY THAT IM A LOOSER
<buggzero> im just... generally free
<buggzero> for the time being
<lmanul> buggzero: I'm definitely not saying that
<artnay> buggzero: in case you didn't know, manu is responsible for the new logout dialog https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DapperFlight3#head-8d8b3cb6bca3949852d30fbd7acc89ed3dfc846e
<lmanul> buggzero: I would be glad to have nothing but time ! :)
<artnay> time and a working computer *sigh*
<lmanul> New logout dialog, new panel "add to" dialog, new separator for the panel, etc.
<artnay> mhz, hey mate
<lmanul> I'm making everything anew :-p
<artnay> lmanul: yep, but what interests us are the new icons
<artnay> oh, comments on those
<buggzero> wait wait the one with the icons or the one that says ABOUT gnome
<artnay> the door scheme you're using in logout icon... don't you think green is a bit too friendly for that kind of action? :o
<mhz> hay artnay 
<artnay> I'd suggest to stay in a red colour, just as it is at the moment
<artnay> maybe making it more up-to-date, just an idea
<artnay> I was thinking something like this: http://f.unk.fi/~artnay/logout.png
<artnay> but it should use ubuntu palette
<artnay> mhz: so wiki got renewed, what do you think of change?
<buggzero> allright i have to get out of here for now
<buggzero> artnay: a pleasure talking with you
<artnay> buggzero: you too.
<buggzero> you'll see more of me around
<artnay> excellent. take care!
<artnay> mhz: the wiki structure completely ignores different *buntu flavours
<mhz> lol
<artnay> and I'm really not into AUC being wiki-based... I think wiki isn't suitable for that kind of work
<mhz> yup, i guess i agree with you
<artnay> it lacks important functions and it might get complicated to navigate
<mhz> artnay: what 'renewed' wiki?
<artnay> ^ topic
<artnay>  /Artwork
<artnay> now it's missing edubuntu and xubuntu completely
* mhz checking
<artnay> well they can be found, but they should be provided on the first sight
<artnay> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork lacks vital information, I think
<artnay> I haven't replied to ML because I wanted to discuss of it here on IRC first
<artnay> lmanul: are you now mostly coding? can community expect new icons from you? :)
<artnay> mhz: oh yeah, we have to prepare before the meeting!
<artnay> mhz: want to help with that one?
<mhz> well, artnay, maybe adding "you may find artwork related to Edubuntu, Kubuntu and Xubuntu" at Offcial Artwork section could do the job
<artnay> why is it official?
<mhz> i dont know
<artnay> I mean, they're using different backgrounds, icon sets etc.
<mhz> you should ask Henrik about it
<artnay> take edubuntu for an example
<artnay> I guess text official refers to logos
<artnay> but it should cover a lot more than that
<mhz> yup
<artnay> and somehow we should also link to ubuntu marketing as they have web banners etc.
<mhz> absolutely right
<artnay> so to me the wiki change seems to be a bit rushed... no offense.
<artnay> we did some work but we never got it finished as there were no comments or people helping with that
<mhz> then, Henrik is the person you probably need to talk to as he made the changes
<mhz> artnay: when that happens, and you feel you need to move on, just move on and the "rest will follow"
<artnay> 13:39 [freenode]  (*) There is no such nick hno73
<artnay> :(
<mhz> artnay: yo have his email?
<mhz> need it?
<artnay> mhz: sure
<artnay> I have it
<artnay> but, umh, maybe that should be discussed on ML
<artnay> as he doesn't seem to be on IRC
<mhz> henrik@ubuntu.com
<mhz> oh, you got it
<artnay> it would be great if he had time to be here
<artnay> but let's hope he'll be present in the meeting
<mhz> ML is good but tell people "we need to get this to discussion before thursday"
<artnay> because that's something artwork team was really lacking, input from canonical
<mhz> if discussion never arises, then just move on and talk to Henrik
<mhz> ;)
<lmanul> artnay: about the logout icon color, the main idea of the dialog is to make each icon's color different from the others (logout=green, shutdown=red, suspend=orange, hibernate=blue, restart=purple)
<artnay> lmanul: sure, but the shapes will give the idea as well
<mhz> artnay: even at edubuntu I have same issues regarding artwork. We still have no clue what the "hired designers" will/are doing
<artnay> mhz: there are no hired designers, I discussed with a few canonicals
<lmanul> artnay : right, shapes + color is more powerful IMHO than shapes or colors alone
<mhz> so, I thought I would have some guidelines regarding GTK tweaking and Wallpapers stuff, and icons, but in the end it seems that I will have to move on based on my own ideas ;0
<artnay> lmanul: have you tested how that green door blends to gnome-panel?
<artnay> it must be used there as well IMHO
<artnay> lmanul: you had a chat with tango devs concerning the icons, right?
<lmanul> artnay: yes
<lmanul> The icons are mainly tango style
<artnay> what about sleep and hibernate icons? I think there should be a small change between those
<lmanul> yeah, it would be great
<artnay> not just the colour
<lmanul> But finding a good concept is not easy
<lmanul> The "Zzz" idea doesn't quite work
<artnay> I know :)
<artnay> no it doesn't
<lmanul> hehe :)
<artnay> neither does a door with recycle icon etc.
<lmanul> a door with recycle icon ?
<artnay> lmanul: you, sort of restart icon (two arrows reflecting the door)
<artnay> it was just an idea I had, but since you came up with those icons, I thought they were pretty decent and we could work on those
<artnay> you... yeah I meant to say
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-01-29
<alefteris> hi
<troy_s> hello alefteris
<alefteris> is this the command to check out the feisty gdm theme bzr checkout http://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-art-pkg/+branch/feisty-gdm-themes/ubuntu
<alefteris> when i issue the command it just creates an ubuntu folder and then waits..
<alefteris> bzr: ERROR: Connection error: Error retrieving http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-art-pkg/feisty-gdm-themes/ubuntu/.bzr/repository/knits/56/session1.png-20061002182018-mm10hee25yypwplv-17.knit: <urlopen error (-2, 'Name or service not known')> <urlopen error (-2, 'Name or service not known')>
<alefteris> i get this
<alefteris> also, does the source include the svg files?
<troy_s> hrm
<troy_s> do you have the proper address first (looks good)
<troy_s> give it a few minutes alefteris then try it again
<troy_s> have you adjusted python on your system at all?
<alefteris> no
<troy_s> that should work then
<troy_s> so try it again
<troy_s> erm
<troy_s> maybe... i think your source is off.
<troy_s> hold on.
<alefteris> should be https or http?
<troy_s> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-art-pkg/feisty-gdm-themes/ubuntu
<troy_s> did you rread the tutorial on how to get the proper url?
<troy_s> First, go to www.launchpad.net/products and search for the product
<troy_s> once you have the product, click the link
<troy_s> click the "CODE" link from there in the left panel
<troy_s> from the list of branches that appear
<troy_s> select ONE
<troy_s> (with feisty-gdm-themes there is only one so don't worry)
<alefteris> thats what i did
<troy_s> then look
<troy_s> at the 'hosted on launchpad' link
<troy_s> directly under the caption at the top
<troy_s> that will give you the official link
<troy_s> in this case
<troy_s> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-art-pkg/feisty-gdm-themes/ubuntu
<troy_s> so all you need to do is issue a
<troy_s> bzr checkout http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-art-pkg/feisty-gdm-themes/ubuntu
<troy_s> and you will pull the head branch
<troy_s> oki?
<troy_s> alefteris: ?
<troy_s> and no, it should... but i don't believe it includes the bloody sources to the svg
<troy_s> i sent a mail to who, but i don't know if it got around to being included.
<alefteris> troy_s, im still getting this error
<alefteris> bzr: ERROR: Connection error: Error retrieving http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-art-pkg/feisty-gdm-themes/ubuntu/.bzr/branch-format: <urlopen error (-3, 'Temporary failure in name resolution')> <urlopen error (-3, 'Temporary failure in name resolution')>
<troy_s> so you aren't able to get hte ip
<troy_s> that would probably be a temporary errro
<troy_s> either your dns is flailing right now
<troy_s> or the dns that hosts the bazaar.launchpad.net name is flailing.
<alefteris> must be mine then :(
<troy_s> appears so
<troy_s> i can ping it just fine
<alefteris> so the svg is incuded?
<troy_s> try pinging it
<troy_s> i don't believe so.
<troy_s> which is completely unfortunate.
<alefteris> its wird, i can ping  bazaar.launchpad.net
<troy_s> and you did the exact
<troy_s> bzr checkout http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-art-pkg/feisty-gdm-themes/ubuntu
<troy_s> ?
<troy_s> perhaps your python got borked?
<troy_s> try re-installing your python package.
<alefteris> ok thanks
<troy_s> no work?
<troy_s> or workie?
<alefteris> must be something wronk with my networking..
<troy_s> very strange error though
<alefteris> thanks for the help Trae
<troy_s> i know that it _could_ be python
<lizardking__> troy_s: I'm in
<troy_s> greets lizardking__
<alefteris> ok i tryed the same link in firefox and a get an emptry apache file directory page
<troy_s> alefteris: i would start with re-installing python
<troy_s> just a hunch
<troy_s> but it sounds like your python _may_ have gotten borked
<alefteris> ok
<lizardking__> alefteris: can U pass me the launchpad link that does not work?
<troy_s> bzr checkout http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-art-pkg/feisty-gdm-themes/ubuntu
<troy_s> alefteris is trying to do that.
<lizardking__> thnx
<troy_s> but getting a weird error
<lizardking__> i'm here Fetch phase 1/4
<lizardking__> finished. it works for me
<troy_s> lizardking__: i think it is alefteris's python or something
<lizardking__> alefteris: what's yours bzr --version command ?
<lizardking__> alefteris: mine is
<lizardking__> Sei lizardking in ~/Desktop >bzr --version
<lizardking__> Bazaar (bzr) 0.14.0
<lizardking__> Using python interpreter: /usr/bin/python2.4
<lizardking__> Using python standard library: /usr/lib/python2.4
<lizardking__> Using bzrlib: /usr/lib/python2.4/site-packages/bzrlib
<alefteris> Bazaar (bzr) 0.11.0
<alefteris> Using python interpreter: /usr/bin/python
<alefteris> Using python standard library: /usr/lib/python2.4
<alefteris> Using bzrlib: /usr/lib/python2.4/site-packages/bzrlib
<troy_s> erm your bzr looks dated
<troy_s> alef
<lizardking__> alefteris: try to update bzr
<troy_s> your bzr is way old :)
<lizardking__> wait..
<alefteris> its the edgy version
<troy_s> how strange
<troy_s> i recalled the .14
<lizardking__> alefteris: follow this sources.list istructions http://bazaar-vcs.org/DistroDownloads
<troy_s> let me try a pull
<lizardking__> alefteris: ;)
<troy_s> mine appears to have pulled fine
<troy_s> i am pretty sure it is alefteris's python
<troy_s> something is borked
<lizardking__> troy_s: Do you know some news about artwork package parser?
<alefteris> ok its working :)
<lizardking__> alefteris: ;)
<lizardking__> i'm going to sleep. tomorrow university :(
<klepas> anyone awake?
<BHSPitMonkey> nope
<klepas> hey, how's it going :)
<klepas> moin darkmatter
<darkmatter> hey... not bad.. just woke from a lil shuteye
<darkmatter> how are y'all doin today?
<klepas> ah, pretty good
<klepas> at work atm :)
<darkmatter> ahhh
<darkmatter> I see :)
<klepas> darkmatter: do you use the tango icons from cvs or a pre-packaged set?
<darkmatter> tango and gnome from cvs/svn, as well as suse's industrial (the new version... tangoed)
<klepas> mhh i haven't seen those
<klepas> where can i best get my hands on 'em, preferably from svn/cvs
<darkmatter> industrial??? I just ripped them from an rpm... one sec.. I'll find the beasty
<klepas> cheers :)
<nysosym> hi all :)
<nysosym> what do u think about many more black in the ubuntu default style?
<kwwii> nysosym: do you mean making things much darker?
<nysosym> kwwii: yes, splash, gdm, wallpapers
<kwwii> not sure about the splash or the gdm but it might be neat on the wallpaper
<nysosym> there is a quick and dirty mockup, i think the contrast of orange and black/grew looks very professionell
<nysosym> http://img186.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bildschirmfotoxnestqp9.png
<nysosym> And for wallpapers, i thought on some nice landscapes in black and white
<nysosym> Or some pictures of architecture
<kwwii> as the colors for the logo are warm, earth tones, I am not soo sure about using that amount of blue
<nysosym> blue?
<kwwii> well, that grey looks very blue-ish to me
<nysosym> hmm maybe a bad configured screen? :D
<kwwii> nope, brand new laptop
<nysosym> kwwii: hmm sure, but onliy is use the default color palette of black and grey in gimp
<nysosym> and here are some types of wallpapers
<nysosym> http://img412.imageshack.us/my.php?image=wallpapertestky6.jpg
<kwwii> the biggest problem with using pics as a default is that they are usually too complicated, they draw the eye too much
<kwwii> I do like the idea of making a darker look, but I think it should still have a version in dark, warm colors
<nysosym> hmm yes, maybe we should use, some with a low contrast
<nysosym> some smooth landscapes
<nysosym> hi PingunZ
<PingunZ> hey nysosym
<nysosym> PingunZ: black or blue?
<nysosym> http://img186.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bildschirmfotoxnestqp9.png
<nysosym> is it me, or comes the feisty artwork very very slow forward?
<nysosym> btw. has anyone see fschoep in the last time?
<PingunZ> nah
<PingunZ> nysosym, pm about that gdm ?
<nysosym> PingunZ: yes
<alefteris> anyone here that can help me with the ubuntu moinmoin theme?
<PingunZ> what's the problem ?
<PingunZ> hey lizardking
<lizardking_> Hi
<lizardking_> come back from University
<lizardking_> ;)
<lizardking_> uff strong day!
<lizardking_> i hate monday!
<PingunZ> :)
<lizardking_> and late I will going to basketball training...damn, so full life :D
<alefteris> PingunZ, i have a problem with some localised text in the theme py file, it doesnt apear correctly in the browser
<PingunZ> hmm
<alefteris> the file is saved as utf8, other localised text appears correctry in the wiki..
<PingunZ> I have to go, I hope someone can help you
<alefteris> its just the text from the theme that doesnt
<alefteris> ok
<PingunZ> try to google it ?
<PingunZ> later
<lizardking_> Somone knows what python package install to run this script? https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-art-pkg/+branch/example-look/dev
<lizardking_> Sei lizardking in ~/Desktop/dev >python setup.py
<lizardking_> Traceback (most recent call last):
<lizardking_>   File "setup.py", line 2, in ?
<lizardking_>     from DistUtilsExtra.distutils_extra import build_extra, build_l10n
<lizardking_> ImportError: No module named DistUtilsExtra.distutils_extra
<alefteris> is it possible to add a glowing effect in letters with inkscape? just like the text in the ubuntu website logo..
<alefteris> or i have to go to gimp to make something like that
<troy_s> greets all
<alefteris> hi troy_s
<troy_s> i wonder if lizardking got his py issues sorted
<troy_s> you resolved your bzr issues correct alefteris ?
<alefteris> troy_s, yes thank you
<alefteris> it was a dns problem after all
<troy_s> looked odd.
<troy_s> what were you working on?
<alefteris> troy_s, a logo for the local community team
<alefteris> but i funt the svg from the wiki artwork/input staff
<alefteris> now im having truble creating a glow around the letters..
<alefteris> :)
<troy_s> Erm... where is the source SVG?
<troy_s> is it in the package now?
<troy_s> a glow is quite simple...
<troy_s> Expand the spline in inkscape
<troy_s> create the solid of your colour
<alefteris> im trying to do it with neon glow plugin
<troy_s> Erk no
<troy_s> do you just want a white glow?
<troy_s> i would do it in inkscape as it is deadly simple if you have the source svg
<troy_s> where did you snag the source svg from?
<alefteris> one like the ubuntu website logo
<troy_s> it SHOULD be included in the package.
<troy_s> Try this:
<troy_s>  1) Locate the outline of the 'ubuntu' text
<troy_s>  2) Duplicate it to a layer lower
<alefteris> i found the svg here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/EdgyProposals/Logo
<troy_s>  3) use the outset command to expand it.
<troy_s>  4) solid white fill, adjust blur.  Done.
<troy_s> Relatively simplistic, but it will get the job done.
<troy_s> To polish it, try changing the fill gradient stops
<alefteris> troy_s, thanks troy_s i'm gona try it now
<alefteris> troy_s, how should i use the gradients to get the glow effect..
<troy_s> well theoretically... you get a glow without them.
<troy_s> just expand using outset -- and blur
<alefteris> yeao, put looks solid, not like rays
<troy_s> uh...
<troy_s> send me your png.
<troy_s> a png sample
<alefteris> just a sec
<alefteris> troy_s, http://imagebin.org/7074
<troy_s> so make it bigger
<troy_s> and blur it more
<troy_s> if you want a more subtle glow
<alefteris> blur you mean to adust transpanency right?
<alefteris> or someting else?
<troy_s> no
<troy_s> blur
<troy_s> sorry alefteris i was in another window
<troy_s> in inkscape, open up the stroke / fill dialog
<troy_s> and slide the blur slider
<troy_s> (not too far obviously ;) )
<troy_s> alefteris: what version of inkscape are you running?
<alefteris> 0.44
<troy_s> so open up the stroke / fill and slide blur
<alefteris> its called master opacity the slider you are talking about right?
<troy_s> no
<troy_s> the one above it
<troy_s> if you don't have it
<troy_s> compile inkscape yourself.
<troy_s> or get a newer version
<troy_s> should be directly above the 'master opacity' slider.
<alefteris> above it is the Alpha (opacity) spiner
<troy_s> hold on...
<troy_s> alefteris: http://imagebin.org/7076
<troy_s> does your stroke / fill dialog look like that?
<alefteris> i dont have this slider
<troy_s> ok so you need a newer version of inkscape
<alefteris> look like i have an old version of inkscape then
<troy_s> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/HowToCompileInkscape
<troy_s> hopefully that will help you
<troy_s> you shouldn't have any problems after that... :)
<alefteris> thanks Trae
<alefteris> thanks troy_s
<alefteris> :)
<troy_s> troy_s -- Trae is someone else :)
<troy_s> lol
<troy_s> damn tab
<alefteris> yeah
<troy_s> didn't know hitting tab twice cycles through tem
<troy_s> the names ...
<troy_s> nifty.
<troy_s> you can't use inkscape without blur :)
<troy_s> it probably one of the most important tools...  you can get photorealistic artwork now.
<troy_s> (not that photorealistic is really artwork anyways :P )
<alefteris> so troy_s, with the previous version you cant blur or there is no easy to access ui?
<troy_s> no blur
<kwwii> if only the blur worked a bit faster in inkscape
<alefteris> oh
<troy_s> kwwii it is lightening fast on mine.
<troy_s> but i run the svn and a 64 bit
<troy_s> native
<troy_s> i don't know if that has much to do with it.
<troy_s> alefteris: it had some buggy issues early, now it is pretty flawless regarding rendering.
<kwwii> I run svn (daily build) on my brand-spanking new core-due thinkpad, and the refresh is still not the greatest
<kwwii> but the effect is something you really cannot easily do wihtout
<troy_s> kwwii maybe the 64bit makes a diff... hard to say.  how is that new lappy?
<troy_s> kwwii -- they also added that rendering feature for speed which is nice -- change the blur preview quality.
<kwwii> it is the first laptop/computer that I have owned in 9 years which "works well" on linux
<kwwii> everthing works, out of the box
<troy_s> you happy with it?
<kwwii> totally
<kwwii> of course, I still have my big powerbook and a couple of other macs
<kwwii> it is somewhat nicer to draw on a bigger screen
<kwwii> I bought the X60s
<kwwii> compiz is still blowing my mind
<troy_s> you seen metisse yet?
<troy_s> i have a couple of 22" widescreens
<kwwii> nope, what's that?
<troy_s> i still dislike lappies...
<troy_s> oh lord...
<troy_s> wait till you see this
<kwwii> lol
<kwwii> well, this computer is the reason that people buy laptops
<troy_s> http://insitu.lri.fr/metisse/
<troy_s> ?
<troy_s> that good eh?
<troy_s> make sure you view the videos
<kwwii> yepp, and it took me years of buying the wrong ones to figure it out
<troy_s> i _almost_ bought an amd64 bual
<troy_s> dual core
<troy_s> i simply can't deal with 32 bit sluggy anymore so i am pretty much an amd fanboi.
<kwwii> looks cool
<troy_s> look at the vids
<troy_s> ;)
<troy_s> wait until you see the videos of it in action.
<kwwii> that was what I was just doing :-)
<kwwii> only thing I saw until now
<troy_s> it is very cool
<kwwii> looks like it does a lot
<troy_s> the pager kills compiz/beryl.
<troy_s> and it has a user interface element that makes it actually useful
<troy_s> as opposed to silly
<troy_s> pretty cool eh?
<kwwii> an interesting format for future works
<kwwii> more than one given thing
<kwwii> very interesting
<troy_s> well the interesting thing is that it isn't just bloody useless 3d accelleration
<troy_s> it actually _does_ something useful
<kwwii> true
<troy_s> the mirror thing is pretty interesting too
<troy_s> although the wing windows is probably the best.
<kwwii> the video downloads very slowly
<kwwii> some of the mandriva stuff is kinda silly thought
<kwwii> though
<troy_s> much of everything is silly
<troy_s> in particular, what do you think is silly?
<kwwii> well, the idea that someone would click through a menu that was at 45 where you cannot read the text
<troy_s> i don't think the video does it justice
<troy_s> try compiling it.
<troy_s> fecking pypanel
<troy_s> i can't get the sucker to launch and it is driving me bonkers.
<kwwii> the table-top stuff looks killer
<kwwii> if only there was a system to really use that
<kwwii> time for bed here
<troy_s> night kwwii
<kwwii> see you tomorrow
<troy_s> yes there are some very killer elements to it
<lizardking> hi
<lizardking> come back to basket training
<lizardking> yeah I try matiss and it is very very interesting and usable 3d project. for some aspect better than compiz
<alefteris> troy_s, inkscape still compiling :) it takes ages in my machine
<alefteris> if i import a pixmap into inscape, it tracks it down with absolute paths? is ti posible to embed the imported files then when saving in some other format?
<alefteris> WARNING: Bad markup found in translations.  Please consider fixing the above problems.
<alefteris> make[2] : Leaving directory `/home/thanos/tmp/inkscape'
<alefteris> make[1] : Leaving directory `/home/thanos/tmp/inkscape'
<alefteris> dz.po?? thats wird
<alefteris> troy_s, dispite the error, it works, and blur is wiked :)
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-01-30
<troy_s> alefteris: if you want to use bitmaps in the svgs import them
<troy_s> using the embedder.
<alefteris> how i do that? till now i was doing File -> Import... But then i realised that when i remove the file, its gone from the svg too.. how can i make them stick together?
<troy_s> alefteris: Let me look for you.
<troy_s> sorry was napping :0
<troy_s> EFFECTS->IMAGES
<troy_s> embed images
<troy_s> alefteris: ping
<alefteris> pong
<troy_s> ;)
<troy_s> alefteris: that work for you?
<alefteris> thanks troy_s, its a rather wird place to have this option..
<alefteris> yeap
<troy_s> well it is an 'add on'
<troy_s> because normally you don't embed a bitmap
<troy_s> right into the svg
<troy_s> but the blur worked for you?
<troy_s> by the way, if you keep that svn directory the recompile will take less time as you are only going to recompile and link the libraries that changed.
<alefteris> yeah, http://imagebin.org/7080
<alefteris> looks cute
<troy_s> that was easy now wasn't it?
<troy_s> how come you have a bitmap in that???????
<troy_s> what portion of the image is a bitmap
<troy_s> you shouldn't need any of it.
<alefteris> for the flag and the packground
<troy_s> oh lord...
<alefteris> hehe, i know
<troy_s> for the background -- use a circular grad
<troy_s> for the flag
<troy_s> just trace the bitmap using the inkscape tools
<troy_s> it should trace very well.
<troy_s> then throw those bitmaps out of there!
<alefteris> i didnt know you can trace bitmaps
<alefteris> :)
<troy_s> lol
<troy_s> yes
<troy_s> and there are a good deal of options
<troy_s> you can actually trace photos, and if you do some pre-work magic, you can have them look very good.
<troy_s> can you ship me the flag image?
<troy_s> i'll show you
<coz_> evening to all
<darkmatter> hiya coz_
<coz_> hey dude
<coz_> what are you doing in ubuntu-artwork/
<darkmatter> pat of the team
<coz_> :)
<darkmatter> *part
<coz_> darkmatter, mm same here didn't see you on the list but no one saw me either:)
<darkmatter> coz_, just got approached to join the other day
<coz_> darkmatter, oh wonderful wel welcome good to see you here
<darkmatter> :)
<coz_> darkmatter, that means at least 2 of us will be talkning on here:)
<darkmatter> hehe
<coz_> darkmatter, generally is slow considering what has been happening with the art end of ubuntu
<darkmatter> I'm just doing some rough outs on some asthetic refinement... just debating my textbox shadows atm
<darkmatter> coz_ yeah
<darkmatter> coz_ need your opinion on somefin... just a sec.. I'll take a screenie
<darkmatter> coz_, http://img294.imageshack.us/my.php?image=screenshotmf3.png
<darkmatter> text shadows
<coz_> ok let me look :)
<darkmatter> how they look... yay or nay?
<darkmatter> also shifting the shadow/frame tones over to tango inspired aluminium
<coz_> darkmatter, I guess yay becaue the text is very clear
<coz_> of course you know how I feel about the slab menu :)
<darkmatter> no.. I mean the shadows in the text box (at the top if the entry field)... did a slight drop shadow
<darkmatter> yeah.. I know.. you hate the slab ;)
<coz_> :)
<darkmatter> does that softer aluminum shade look ok for the shadows?? (compare the text boxes in xchat to the outlines on the scrollies)
<darkmatter> as in... which gray... the warmer hue or the cooler?
<coz_> let me look again
<darkmatter> k
<coz_> yes I like the softer shade there. it isn't harsh to the eye and as far as warm or cool goes.. depends on the effect you want...if you want a shallower field then go warmer
<darkmatter> aye... I thought the warmer too :)
<coz_> darkmatter, well don't let me influence your decision either, iw ould rather have your vision  on your work :)
<darkmatter> good... now that thats sorted I can redo the frames
<coz_> ok :)
<darkmatter> lol... its not influence... I just wanted to make sure I wasnt the only one who thot the aluminium gray looked better
<coz_> darkmatter, no guy I think its looks more than fine, as long as you think it does then it will be fine :)
<coz_> have to go for the moment be back a little later :)
<darkmatter> the frames (blue gray ugly crap around the user lists, etc) will use the same gray and the same 2pix corner... if you compare theme to the new outlines (the text shadows on the left) the new are much more balanced and aesthetically pleasing
<darkmatter> bah
<darkmatter> hmmm... still need to start work on the buttons n panel
<troy_s> wow chittery in here
<troy_s> darkmatter: are you working on a beryl theme?
<darkmatter> yup... slowly. refining the gtk a first.
<troy_s> i see.
<darkmatter> atm the beryls ugly... the button are just filler fron that amora thingy because I needed a place to click
<darkmatter> ;)
<troy_s> have you tried farting around with metisse?
<darkmatter> yup
<darkmatter> its pretty neat
<darkmatter> I like the "build your own windows" thing
<troy_s> i find it more interesting than the compiz/beryl simply because it seems to offer more useable elements
<troy_s> not just garbage 'neat' stuff.
<darkmatter> thats actually quite useful
<troy_s> indeed.
<troy_s> are you referring to the build your own tool palette elements?
<darkmatter> yup... compiz n beryl are fine... but beryls mostly useless eyecandy
<darkmatter> troy_s, yup
<troy_s> exactly
<troy_s> the pager in metisse is far superior too
<troy_s> in fact, dare i say, metisse seems to be the most well thought out direction for utilizing gl accell.
<troy_s> not that i am sold on it until we can assure that every user can use it.
<troy_s> until that point, i find that software augmentations are probably the best route (along the lines of e17)
<troy_s> pingunz speaks very highly of you... where are you from?
<darkmatter> Canada
<troy_s> woot
<troy_s> good canadian kid.
<troy_s> ;)
<darkmatter> brb.. need coffeee
<troy_s> vancouver here.
<darkmatter> w00t
<troy_s> where abouts darkmatter ?
<darkmatter> ahh.. south eastern Saskatchewan
<troy_s> saskatoon berries.
<troy_s> lol
<darkmatter> lol
<darkmatter> I used to live in saskatoon many moons ago
<troy_s> greets msikma
<msikma> hey troy
* darkmatter pokes klepas
<lapo> hi there
<andreasn> hi lapo
<lapo> yo andreasn
<andreasn> how are things?
<lapo> andreasn: going fine, thanks, what about you?
<andreasn> everythings good, currently doing sketches for a new client
<lapo> cool so your work is going fine
<andreasn> and it's not the ordinary desktop-stuff that have been done a bazillion times before, so that's fun
<lapo> when you'll be as rich as mark lemme try your personal jet :-)
<darkmatter> hmmm... some progess... opinions? http://www.flickr.com/photos/92826085@N00/374334129/in/set-72157594488098254/   http://www.flickr.com/photos/92826085@N00/374334127/in/set-72157594488098254/
<andreasn> I'm doing ok on my incomes, but it's not as much as I would have hoped to
<andreasn> BUT, I did get a radio airplane for my birthday from my brother-in-law!
<andreasn> tried it out yesterday, it was quite fun
<andreasn> darkmatter: where did you get that sweet firefox icon?
<darkmatter> ahhh.... from the tango xp suff
<andreasn> is it available in several sizes?
<darkmatter> yup... it is now (fixed up and in my hicolor folder... also did the xpm for the windows and windowlist)
<andreasn> http://www.darkt.net/tango/ , right?
<andreasn> or, hm, that seems to be down
<darkmatter> was... it moved
<darkmatter> one sec
<darkmatter> andreasn, http://vertigosity.benpbrown.com/?page=start
<andreasn> thanks!
<darkmatter> yup
<darkmatter> sources r at http://tango.benpbrown.com/?page=dev&dev=source
<darkmatter> its in there somewhere
<lapo> andreasn: do you remember the garret's firefox themes url?
<andreasn> I think it's up on addons.mozilla.com now
<lapo> really?
<lapo> cool
<andreasn> http://primates.ximian.com/~glesage/firefox/
<darkmatter> industrial+gilouche looks kinda neat on windows
* darkmatter pokes klepas
<andreasn> darkmatter: hm, in what package is that ff-icon?
<andreasn> darkmatter: I found hylke-fx in one folder, but that seems a bit unclearer
<darkmatter> hmm... not sure...
<darkmatter> brb
<lizardking> hello
<lizardking> sbaush:  hi
<lizardking> sbaush : How are you?
<sbaush> ghghgh
<klepas_> moin
<klepas> np: Various Artists - Capricorn - 20 Hz
<klepas> anyone awake?
<Viper550> anyone here?
<effraie> yep
<Viper550> okay then...
<lizardking__> Hi
<drew1313> hi all
<darkmatter> hello
<drew1313> my firest time here just kinda cheking it out
<darkmatter> ahhh... well.. welcome :)
<drew1313> thank you...
<troy_s> greets all.
<lizardking> hi
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-01-31
<lizardking__> goodnight everybody
<klepas> moin
<coz_> looks like numbers have dwindled
<nysosym> hi there :)
<nysosym> any news?
<troy_s> greets nysosym
<troy_s> greets lizardking_
<lizardking_> troy_s: Hi, I just finshed to study information retireival :D
<troy_s> what are you taking in uni as your ugrad?
<lizardking_> what's ugrad?
<nysosym> hi troy_s and lizardking_ :)
<lizardking_> Hi guy!
<nysosym> Hmm i think it's a good way to make beryl/compit optional. :)
<nysosym> But i liked the face browser idea for gdm, is these deffered although?
<troy_s> ugrad == under grad degree
<troy_s> as in your 4 year bachelors degree major
<troy_s> i think fundamentally proceeding into opengl design issues
<troy_s> without a strategy
<troy_s> or the ability to offer other users suitable simulations via software
<troy_s> is simply foolish
<troy_s> sabdfl should just bork the whole gnome / kde war, fund an ubuntu-centric window manager in a similar vein to e17
<lizardking_> When I will under grad senior degree , I will try to get a work in Canonical/ubuntu :D
<troy_s> what is your major?
<troy_s> computer science?
<nysosym> troy_s: ok, but i think face-browser has a absolutely "must have" effect
<troy_s> nysosym: face browsers offer a fundamental security issue
<lizardking_> troy_s: yes computer science, networks, sw development
<troy_s> nysosym: which isn't a huge deal in a home environment, but could be 'yet one more small detail' in a library, corporate, etc.
<nysosym> troy_s: sure, but i option to activate them would be nice :D
<troy_s> nysosym: option is great
<troy_s> nysosym: but default is a no brainer.
<troy_s> and once again, having the technology and integrating it with some degree of design based thinking is a whole other matter.
<troy_s> Ubuntu has enough issues trying to get a bloody plan into place _without_ the complexities of GL interface design wrapped into it.
<nysosym> But Macslow, would be write the code for that feature. Anyway, where is fschoep?
<troy_s> fschoep left the Ubuntu crowd
<nysosym> why? O.o
<troy_s> We have enough features
<troy_s> look at the nightmare we already have with rather scattered presentation
<troy_s> look at the website, the packaging, the operating system itself, etc.
<troy_s> its is just bloody awful across _all_ the ubuntus.
<nysosym> Sure, i'm aren't a developer, that's only my mind. I think feisty fawn will be the direct concurrent of Vista and Leopard, and we should have many more eyecandy for a lot of new users.
<troy_s> not a chance
<troy_s> there is exactly 0% chance for Ubuntu to even be close to competing with those two
<troy_s> they have actual design teams with trained and educated people on them
<troy_s> we can't even agree to disagree
<troy_s> Eyecandy is carefully planned and executed
<troy_s> in both those environments
<troy_s> not haphazard and scattered as in Ubuntu
<troy_s> there is simply no hope until Ubuntu starts thinking about design -- the _full_ picture.
<nysosym> what a shame, but ok, i agree that other things have a lot bigger priority
<troy_s> In Free Software design, people realize they are working on a SINGLE project and the code MUST fit or else it will not work.
<troy_s> In design -- everyone is happy go lucky
<troy_s> There is no 'bigger picture' -- no central application that simply will 'work' or 'not work'
<troy_s> No one treating it as a discipline
<troy_s> It is a hobby level of design in FOSS.
<troy_s> Simply abhorrent.
<troy_s> No vision.  Simplistic mimicry of the most mediocre variety.
<troy_s> Etc.
<troy_s> Unfortunately, that paints a bleak picture, but quite simply, it is the reality.
<nysosym> yes, fully agreed!
<nysosym> What we need is a global design guideline
<troy_s> You need look no further than the awful tacky photography on the packaging, the rather 'always attempt to be middle grey unoffensive' stance of the work.
<troy_s> etc.
<troy_s> yep
<troy_s> But unfortunately, the man steering that process A) doesn't give a feck and doesn't appreciate its importance in the product, B) doesn't have an understanding of even the most fundamental principles, etc.
<troy_s> Brilliant guy
<nysosym> but, the most devs are hobby programmer and nobody can force them to use these guideline
<troy_s> but on seeing the whole package, he simply flails.
<troy_s> Yes... or untrained 'artists'
<troy_s> And we do have trained folks in our midst.
<troy_s> coz_ I know for certain is trained and educated.
<troy_s> Etc.
<troy_s> It has a serious impact when attempting to evaluate directionality -- as in 'the future' -- as you can evaluate patterns based on your historical knowledge, etc.
<nysosym> troy_s: ok, but on the other side, 98% of applications in OSX looks perfect, stylish and perfect. Why can't Linux dev make these true?!
<troy_s> I already explained that...
<troy_s> First, OSX isn't the end all nor something we would want to imitate
<troy_s> It has flaws.
<troy_s> etc.
<troy_s> That said, Apple has a very educated design staff
<troy_s> And that is why it is successful
<troy_s> They all discuss things on an artistic / design level -- they brainstorm -- etc.  They don't just push pixels and hope it fits in.
<troy_s> They look at the whole package -- how will the elements fit in against the design attributes of the casings, etc.
<troy_s> How does the interface actually 'work' with their target audience?
<nysosym> yes ok, sry i'm aren't so good in english and read your lines inquiring, but very slow...
<troy_s> Lol.
<troy_s> Your english is darn good compared to my ability to speak in another language...
<nysosym> thx, but slow ^^
<troy_s> The best analogy I can communicate is something similar to say, the jackd audio central server -- anyone who writes audio applications integrates with it.
<troy_s> In design, there is no such need.
<troy_s> Rather, there is the _need_ but no such deft application of execution.
<troy_s> You have a percentage of people who want Ubuntu to be either "GNOMEish" or "KDEish" (whatever that is -- it isn't like there is an underlying style to either)
<troy_s> Then you have a percentage who just do their own thing
<troy_s> Etc.
<troy_s> In the end however, none of the approaches even attempts to reconcile with something as simple as a communication keyword, a designated audience, etc.
<troy_s> Hence -- the byproduct you see now.
<troy_s> And it isn't like it has gotten better from Warty
<troy_s> It, in fact, has done nothing more than swirl around in an eddy.
<troy_s> Factor in politicking, and you have a rather nightmarish situation.
<nysosym> sure sure, but what i mean, have a look on many little programs write by hobby devs on osx, like a cpu rating program or similar. These program looks perfect, and simple i don't think that these devs have a look on any guideline. What i think is, that the apple tools to create a gui for an application is a lot better as the linux pendants
<troy_s> Uh
<troy_s> You are mistaken
<troy_s> Have you seen the design guidelines for XP, Vista, or OSX?
<troy_s> They are hundreds of pages.
<troy_s> http://developer.apple.com/documentation/UserExperience/Conceptual/OSXHIGuidelines/XHIGIntro/chapter_1_section_1.html
<troy_s> http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa511258.aspx
<troy_s> preliminary documents on vista are 20 megs
<troy_s> This is _SUCH_ a common practice
<nysosym> troy_s: ok, but why use a hobby osx dev these guideline and linux devs aren't?
<troy_s> in art / design / creative fields... for example, in television, you build a design 'bible' before you shoot a single episode.
<troy_s> nysosym:  Probably the simple fact that there simply aren't enough educated folks in the crowd.
<troy_s> in a feature film scenario, you write treatments and build a bible
<troy_s> in _any_ creative endeavour of a larger capacity, you spend MUCH time evaluating, brainstorming, and most importantly -- RECORDING the thought process and the results.
<nysosym> troy_s: yes, i will work in the graphic business and i will design guis for programs and have many ideas, but i can produce these ideas, because i can't write any line of code.
<troy_s> I wish I could show you the pre-visualization work I have seen on feature film sets... the art directors often draft THOUSANDS of sketches to develop one simple 1.5 hour movie.
<troy_s> nysosym: Integration is the other factor -- apple and ms know and appreciate what the creative design means to the bottom line
<troy_s> it means bigger dollars
<troy_s> more market share
<troy_s> etc.
<nysosym> i would help any developer without skills to make a beautiful program with a nice usability. But the most devs don't ask me, for any reason ^^
<troy_s> beauty is relative, but I can appreciate your point.
<troy_s> that is the thing... the best companies that produce the most compelling design have COLLABORATION at their core
<troy_s> everyone is communicating in the same 'idea sphere' and everyone respects each person's vital role in the output
<troy_s> segmentation doesn't produce this.
<troy_s> Vista packaging for example, is pretty top notch -- but notice how well it integrates with the other aspects
<nysosym> that's a big handicap of FOSS
<troy_s> Handicap?  That doesn't do the people with handicaps justice.
<troy_s> It is a crippling and degenerative disease.
<troy_s> http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa511258.aspx
<troy_s> take a look at that page
<troy_s> despite the rather 'suspicious' theory
<troy_s> it is well documented
<troy_s> http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa511258.aspx
<troy_s> its a no brainer
<nysosym> Hmm wee need a similar document, for devs who would use a guideline for user experience :)
<troy_s> that would take getting everyone on the 'same page'
<troy_s> which is completely difficult in terms of execution with the current established process.
<troy_s> I fear that this probably will NOT happen
<troy_s> until a community team demonstrates the power of the process.
<nysosym> sure, damn, i must go to work no. Nice to meet u , thx for conversation and hope to see u soon here
<nysosym> :)
<troy_s> Chat soon nysosym
<troy_s> take care.
<nysosym> have a nice day ;)
<lizardking_> gulp, how much long did you chat?
<lizardking_> ;)
<Tessa> does someone know a channel where i can ask graphic-related questions which came up in the use of ubuntu dapper? this certainly aint the right place for such things is it?
<Tessa> its about mass editing via commandline
<troy_s> yes
<Tessa> which channel would this be?
<troy_s> Tessa: probably this one
<troy_s> not that we can do anything
<troy_s> nor that anyone in a position to implement changes would listen
<Tessa> good. ;)
<troy_s> that said, we might be able to forward your thoughts to the proper people
<Tessa> do you know a way to desaturate a bunch of files recursively thorught a structure of folders with one command? something like batch-desaturating?
<troy_s> Of course
<Tessa> how could this be done?
<troy_s> In fact, in doing so you will perhaps learn one of the most powerful image processing tools available anywhere...
<troy_s> Unfortunately, there are no gui's for it
<troy_s> www.imagemagick.org
<Tessa> let me guess: image magik?
<troy_s> (well there are but they stink)
<Tessa> ah i ve heard about it
<troy_s> of course
<troy_s> ;)
<troy_s> imagemagick can do image manipulation on a scale that would shock photoshop
<troy_s> better algorithms
<troy_s> better speed and cross architecture
<troy_s> i strongly recommend it.
<troy_s> couple it with a bit of simple bash scripting and you have quite a powerhouse.
<Tessa> so i guess batch-desaturating is one of the easy-as-pie features if one knows how to do it with imagemagick?
<troy_s> Actually
<troy_s> Imagemagick is one of the few projects that seems to put a heavy stress on documentation
<troy_s> If you are comfy with the command line
<troy_s> You should be able to execute image wizardry in a few mere moments.
<Tessa> As far as i can judge from what i see at the page it seems to be kind of a programming language to me newbie ;)
<troy_s> Well perhaps I could step you through it?
<Tessa> I didnt dare to ask but now that you offer it i cant say no ;)
<Tessa> let me first install it
<troy_s> The syntax is always the same "imagemagickproggie_you_want" inputfile outputfile
<troy_s> sudo apt-get install imagemagick
<Tessa> thats sounds pretty easy so far
<Tessa> i guess the trouble starts whith the recursive processing of the folder structure
<Tessa> ok installed
<troy_s> yes...
<troy_s> the good news is that imagemagick handles wildcards very well
<troy_s> so you won't need to script
<troy_s> although for recursion, i suspect you will need to.
<Tessa> great i ve never been a script person yet
<Tessa> what would be the best way to start then?
<Tessa> create an empty document?
<troy_s> well first learn how
<troy_s> to achieve what you want on the command line
<troy_s> iwth imagemagick
<troy_s> as the order of your modifiers will affect your output
<troy_s> so you don't want to dive right into scripting just yet.
<Tessa> thats true
<troy_s> so first try to execute a desaturate on a directory
<troy_s> using a wildcard scenario
<troy_s> note that when you select this link (command line tools): http://www.imagemagick.org/script/command-line-tools.php
<Tessa> something like convert colors <options> *.png *.png?
<troy_s> you will see there is no 'imagemagick' program
<troy_s> it is actually subdivided into several different tools
<troy_s> learn what each one does
<troy_s> before you learn more
<troy_s> not so much what each program CAN do, but rather loosely what it can do
<troy_s> and yes, you are already there...
<troy_s> the tool we want is convert
<troy_s> http://www.imagemagick.org/script/convert.php
<troy_s> -modulate value  	vary the brightness, saturation, and hue
<troy_s> the ONLY issue with the docs is that they will often reference other areas of the docs, as they will only explain things in one area
<troy_s> and they aren't cross linked at parts...
<troy_s> so for example, geometry will only be explained in one place.
<troy_s> in order
<Tessa> read and reread and crosslink is the way to go then.
<Tessa> *crossread
<troy_s> convert -modulate <BRIGHTNESS>,<SATURATION>,<HUE>
<troy_s> so
<troy_s> say we had 2000 pngs in a dir
<troy_s> we simply type
<troy_s> convert -modulate 0,80,0 *.png
<troy_s> erk
<troy_s> convert -modulate 0,80,0 *.png output.png
<troy_s> and that will create numbered outputs
<troy_s> with 0 change in BRIGHT
<troy_s> 80% original sat (-20%)
<troy_s> and 0 change in HUE
<troy_s> follow me?
<troy_s> also
<troy_s> i believe that hte order might affect it in this case...
<troy_s> it might be
<Tessa> lets say i'd like to keep the original filenames and dont want to have copies. i would use mogrify instead of convert right?
<troy_s> convert *.png -modulate 0,80,0 output.png
<troy_s> mogrify will do that yes.
<troy_s> this will be a breeze for you... it appears you have already gotten the idea.
<Tessa> so far it sounds pretty good.
<troy_s> i wouldn't advise mogrifying until you are certain you have what you want.
<troy_s> pretty good is an understatement...
<Tessa> i would copy the whole folder before mogrifying
<troy_s> you need to see exactly what it can do to appreciate it...
<troy_s> sure
<troy_s> or just convert with output
<troy_s> and destination
<troy_s> probably faster
<troy_s> also
<Tessa> i think i have a slight hint of an impression and really i am amazed already
<troy_s> you will want to know perhaps the most valuable command parameter:
<troy_s> -monitor!
<troy_s> as in convert -monitor blah blah blah
<Tessa> what does it do?
<troy_s> this will spew output so that you can rest assured that imagemagick isn't just sitting there.
<troy_s> some processes take a long time
<Tessa> ok.
<troy_s> and monitor offers a rather verbose description of what is going on.
<troy_s> as you can see, it has nothing to do with your monitor
<Tessa> ;)
<Tessa> let me have a quick try on what you teached me already
<troy_s> you also might want to try your passes on a few sample files first
<troy_s> just to make sure you get the values proper
<troy_s> before you batch -- but i assume that is an obvious step
<Tessa> yep it is
<Tessa> i just grabbed some testing files and i am trying now to mogrify
<Tessa> ok it worked. not what i wanted it to look like but it worked
<troy_s> http://www.imagemagick.org/script/command-line-options.php#sigmoidal
<troy_s> yes... so you might want to figure out exactly what you want
<troy_s> imagemagick has about a gazillion different algs for all sorts of things
<troy_s> then you multiply that by the fact that you can do channel based changes etc
<troy_s> and you get about a ga ga gazillion different options
<Tessa> truely amazing.
<troy_s> http://www.imagemagick.org/script/command-line-options.php#channel
<troy_s> that is handy
<troy_s> it really is the end all in terms of functionality
<Tessa> i just realized that i actually have only 8 folders filled with pngs. so i think we can save the scripting part for another time. it will take some time to figure out how i get what i want
<troy_s> but it takes a bit of learning as it simply can do so much
<troy_s> yes...
<troy_s> there are a few very clunky guis out there
<troy_s> that might get you close to what you want
<troy_s> then you can figure out the smaller details by reading the docs on a particular pass.
<troy_s> if i might ask, what are you trying to do exactly?
<Tessa> i ll go the try & error lane first and when i am too desperate i might have a look at these guis
<troy_s> Tessa?
<troy_s> Can you post a quick sample to imagebin?
<Tessa> I am having an icon theme here which i want to desat completely
<troy_s> and try to describe what you want?
<troy_s> Erm... as in turn it greyscale?
<troy_s> Or just nerf the saturation slightly?
<Tessa> so i have 800 pngs and as easy and maybe silly as it sounds i want them b/w
<troy_s> Then try a greyscale
<troy_s> or monochrome
<troy_s> you are basically looking at greyscaling with imagemagick
<Tessa> changing the image mode from rgb to greyscale?
<troy_s> hold on... :)
<troy_s> http://www.imagemagick.org/script/command-line-options.php#colorspace
<troy_s> ;)
<troy_s> there you go
<Tessa> yay that looks good
<troy_s> Choices are: CMYK, GRAY, HSL, HWB, OHTA, Rec601Luma, Rec709Luma, RGB, Transparent, XYZ, YCbCr, YIQ, YPbPr, or YUV.
<troy_s> and yes, you can finely tune it if you want more control
<troy_s> in particular, you could try -separate
<troy_s> separate an image channel into a grayscale image. Specify the channel with -channel.
<troy_s> again, the real power is the versatility of combining the functionality
<troy_s> it is _damn_ powerful.
<troy_s> and it can handle svg too... although YMMV with inkscape output.
<Tessa> yes and it feels like starting to learn calculating from scratch ;) but i guess once one is used to it and know what can be done how its magic
<troy_s> well i have a general rule
<troy_s> i just 'accept' that imagemagick can do what i want it to
<troy_s> the rest is figuring out how
<troy_s> although, again, the docs are pretty solid.
<troy_s> there are nuances you will find like 'montage -tile 4' etc.
<Tessa> thank you troy for giving a newbie a lesson like this and a really worthful insight in what is possible with this tool!
<troy_s> montage is a great tool too if you are doing batches
<troy_s> you might want to try something like:
<troy_s> montage -monitor -geometry 200 -label %f -frame 2 files.png
<troy_s> or smaller if you are dealing with icons for example
<troy_s> say you are iconing them at perhaps 48x48
<troy_s> then try
<Tessa> what will this do?
<troy_s> montage -monitor -geometry 48 -tile 20 -label %f -frame 2 files.png
<troy_s> try it :)
<troy_s> very handy
<troy_s> in fact, i dare say that you will use it all the time on batches...
<troy_s> it creates a contact sheet
<troy_s> of your work
<troy_s> all to the same sizes
<troy_s> if you specify half of the geometry ( -geometry <WIDTH>x<HEIGHT> )
<Tessa> wow. let me have a try
<troy_s> if you do a -geometry 20, it will always maintain aspect ratio to 20 wide
<troy_s> if you do 20x30 it will stretch
<troy_s> -tile controls the number of tiles you want in your montage
<troy_s> so -tile 5 indicates you want FIVE mini thumbs across
<troy_s> by whatever long
<troy_s> you can also omit it and it will generate a rectangular overall shape of hundreds of montage elements.
<troy_s> -frame gives it a border
<troy_s> -label lets you put in a filename under each image in the contact sheet
<Tessa> hmm, its not giving me an output file. does it create the output file automatically ot do i have to specify one?
<troy_s> %f is an escape sequence indicating 'filename'
<troy_s> oops
<troy_s> no output :)
<troy_s> montage -monitor -geometry 48 -tile 20 -label %f -frame 2 files.png contacsheet.png
<troy_s> that's better
<troy_s> sorry...
<Tessa> dont worry. it still wont. maybe if i put the soecified files right after montage?
<troy_s> no you shouldn't need to
<troy_s> my syntax is probably botched somewhere... are they pngs?
<Tessa> yes
<Tessa> its resizing, mogrifying and tiling and montaging each to 100%
<troy_s> montage -monitor -geometry 48 -tile 20 -label %f -frame 2 *.png contactsheet.png
<troy_s> yes the geometry handles the size
<troy_s> what size are the sources?
<troy_s> 48x48?
<troy_s> icons?
<Tessa> 128
<Tessa> too large?
<troy_s> so geometry will pull it down to 48
<Tessa> it seems it should work fine then, no?
<troy_s> montage -monitor -geometry 48 -tile 20 -label %f -frame 2 *.png contactsheet.png
<troy_s> that SHOULD
<troy_s> is that what you are using?
<Tessa> montage -monitor -geometry 48 -tile 20 -label %f -frame 2 *.png contactsheet.png
<troy_s> try getting rid of the clutter for now...
<troy_s> try
<Tessa> exactly the same
<troy_s> montage -monitor -geometry 48 *.png contactsheet.png
<troy_s> and see if that works
<troy_s> erk by the way
<troy_s> once you create a contact sheet in png format
<troy_s> be careful
<troy_s> because subsequent montages that grab *.png will montage the contact sheet into the mix
<troy_s> ;)
<Tessa> hmm. still no output file.
<darkmatter> good afternoon to all
<Tessa> good evening from germany
<troy_s> greets darkmatter
<darkmatter> hiya troy_s  Tessa
<troy_s> Tessa: you are inside the dir with the pngs in question correct?
<Tessa> right
<Tessa> i checked that 3 times
<troy_s> and monitor is showing output?
<troy_s> as in grabbing the files and scaling them etc?
<Tessa> yes
<troy_s> and when it poops you back out to the command line
<troy_s> did you try typing
<troy_s> display contactsheet.png
<troy_s> display is a handy little cmd line xviewer proggie that comes with imagemagick.
<Tessa> troy_s: alright you got me
<Tessa> there it is
<troy_s> did i lose you?
<troy_s> ahh... :)
<Tessa> no i lost myself ;)
<troy_s> it is always the devil in the tiny details.
<troy_s> greets msikma
<Tessa> anyway troy_s thank you really a lot for this lesson!
<troy_s> what i will tend to do if i am batching is make sure that the output contact sheet gets jettisonned
<troy_s> to a sep dir
<troy_s> so that you don't end up embedding the contact sheets into the image by accident.
<troy_s> Tessa: No problem.  Just spread the word about imagemagick.
<troy_s> If you are a photographer, the tools are indispensable.
<Tessa> troy_s: i sure will do! its a great tool even though i ve seen just the surface (maybe not even that) yet
<troy_s> Yep
<troy_s> Believe me, you will learn ways of wrapping the params up to get all sorts of power.
<Tessa> a lot to learn untill this day i guess, but judging from what ive seen so far it is sure worth the time.
<Tessa> thanks troy_s and have a nice rest of the day
<troy_s> No problem.
<Tessa> good night everyone
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-02-01
<coz_> evening all:)
<troy_s> greets coz_
<coz_> troy_s, hey guy:0 sorry for delay also helping out in another channel :)
<troy_s> no problem
<troy_s> i am busy here as well
<coz_> troy_s, so I see fewer and fewer people comingin here ...dissapointed!
<troy_s> not exactly
<coz_> troy_s, oh?
<troy_s> it has always been rather light
<troy_s> irc just isn't a place for many to idle
<troy_s> which is unfortunate.
<coz_> troy_s, yeah but to day on ly 14 logges on
<troy_s> yes
<troy_s> it comes and goes
<coz_> troy_s, ok last few days seemd rather "slim" in attendance
<troy_s> it happens
<coz_> oh well i can deal:)
<nysosym> hi all
<klepas> moin
<nysosym> hi klepas :)
<nysosym> how are u?
<klepas> crap
<nysosym> why?
<klepas> backpains
<nysosym> hi andreasn
<andreasn> hi there
<nysosym> hi KaiL
<andreasn> nysosym: what's up?
<nysosym> hmm nothing so far, and u?
<andreasn> work, mostly
<nysosym> what do u do?
<andreasn> some icons for a client
<nysosym> nice, for feisty?
<andreasn> for a ISV, I'm not sure what system their customers run, maybe it's sled
<andreasn> or, well, I think their customers can run whatever system the like, as it's crossplatform
<nysosym> ahh ok :)
<andreasn> so maybe they run xp or whatever
<nysosym> can i see them please? :)
<andreasn> not released yet I'm afraid :(
<nysosym> no problem :)
<poningru> woot it does exist
<poningru> elkbuntu!!!
<elkbuntu> poningru, wot?
<elkbuntu> yeah, i know. im every fricking where
<poningru> shadows please: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FeistyFawn/Herd3
<elkbuntu> do you have all the images on your hdd already?
<poningru> err not really
<elkbuntu> bah. i was hoping for them emailed
<poningru> oh I can do that
<elkbuntu> less likely for me to ADD off halfway through doig them
<elkbuntu> i so need to get myself diagnosed one of these days :-P
<poningru> :p
<poningru> can I just link them?
<poningru> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FeistyFawn/Herd3?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=Easy_Codec_Installation.png
<poningru> http://ubuntuforums.org/gallery/data/500/thunar1.png
<poningru> http://ubuntuforums.org/gallery/data/500/Screenshot-Ekiga.png
<elkbuntu> uh.. email the links
<poningru> kk
<elkbuntu> irc is the worst for distractions
<poningru> sent
<poningru> thanks soo much
<andreasn> thunar - like nautilus, but sane
<klepas> anyone around?
<troy_s> klepas?
<klepas> hey troy_s
<klepas> how's it going?
<troy_s> fine thanks
<troy_s> little less busy the last week
<klepas> have you heard of some of the ideas to put some kick back into an art group?
<troy_s> no.
<troy_s> if you speak of official work, things might settle down a bit as kwwii is in charge of the wallpaper
<klepas> had a good chat to jono at linux.conf.au, Sydney mid January
<klepas> talking community work
<troy_s> and i believe sabdfl will invite the community to develop the rest.
<klepas> that is aimed for universe
<troy_s> well that's a snap really
<troy_s> very easy for those who are interested
<troy_s> we have also been working with dholbach for automated artwork building
<troy_s> so that the packages get updated automatically
<troy_s> but that is only really relevant for someone who is interested in having a chunk of work in development
<klepas> yea
<troy_s> not the gnome-look 'poop it out and run' mode.
<klepas> well a bunch of us are going to get together and try to do a complete gnome ubuntu desktop themed set
<klepas> from wallpapers to splashes for various apps and whatnot :)
<klepas> and then package that for universe with dholbachs help hopefully
<troy_s> sure
<troy_s> that's easy
<troy_s> shouldn't be an issue
<klepas> didn't consider it to be really :)
<troy_s> what is the motif?
<klepas> a bunch of us are annoyed at the state of the artwork "team" and want to revive it by producing work in a collaborative fashion
<klepas> that's pretty much it i guess
<troy_s> uh that's great
<troy_s> but what is the motif / thematic?
<klepas> as in the theme of the work?
<troy_s> yes
<klepas> not entirely decided yet :)
<klepas> we'll get to it when we start doing some work i guess
<klepas> :)
<troy_s> what are you going to use as the collaborative anchor?
<troy_s> regarding tool
<klepas> elaborate?
<troy_s> how are you going to accomplish the collaboration?
<klepas> it's just a bunch of friendly people communicating via irc and email who are going to get some work done and share the work they do in source files as well
<klepas> a bunch of us have webservers we can use to upload stuff too
<klepas> to, rather
<troy_s> So is it a 'do something to do something' project?
<klepas> it's a "we're creative people and are sick of doing stuff solo, so lets combine skills and talents to do some cool shit for ubuntu!"
<troy_s> lizardking_: how are you friend?
<troy_s> lizardking_: have you pushed anything new to bzr?
<lizardking_> troy_s: I'm in study pause :D
<troy_s> lizardking_: also, regarding the logo issue, have you considered changing the title to 'orange soda' or something at least as generic (in north american terms) to avoid the copyright issues?
<lizardking_> troy_s: I will commit new splash in these days
<troy_s> lizardking_: great.  do you have a logo for it yet?
<troy_s> might be nice to have an official logo for the look
<troy_s> (the rather lovely oransoda logo is out obviously)
<lizardking_> troy_s: In artwork-ML they tell me that because the trademak is of an other category (italian commercial drinking ) and mine is for arts and theming, they think that it will be right
<lizardking_> troy_s: yes a custom personal logo it will be cool!
<troy_s> Herm... I somehow doubt that lizardking_
<lizardking_> Now I report the copyright mail
<troy_s> not to sound depressing, but my wife is a lawyer
<lizardking_> wait
<troy_s> it isn't just a copyright when it is a logo
<lizardking_> troy_s:  ok ok I will heard you
<troy_s> it is also a registered trademark
<troy_s> etc
<lizardking_> yes It is a registrant copyright
<troy_s> and the trademark would _probably_ put you in jeopardy
<lizardking_> jeopardy?
<troy_s> trouble ;)
<troy_s> Namely, they would hold the right to control everything about that brand logo
<troy_s> From name, to colours, etc.
<troy_s> IIRC
<troy_s> So you would be wise to perhaps just avoid it all together and migrate to the more generic "orange soda" -- which would be completely open (as long as you avoid that oransoda logo styling)
<lizardking_> troy_s: Mhh I do really not want to goes in trouble!!!
<lizardking_> troy_s: this is the mail
<lizardking_> For Iacopo Masi, I have done a quick search of oransoda in google-image
<lizardking_> and I discovered that Oransoda was an italian trademark. I have some
<lizardking_> basic knowledge about the use of a trademark and there is no possiblity
<lizardking_> to identify the drink with the theme so you should be able to use that
<lizardking_> name. So you should remove the post-it in the synopsis that is the
<lizardking_> pattented logo.
<troy_s> who wrote that though
<troy_s> if they aren't a lawyer, it is nothing more than speculation really.
<lizardking_> troy_s: From: Yann Papouin <yann.papouin@wanadoo.fr>
<troy_s> the bottom line is either get an authoritative lawyer discussion on ir or avoid it.
<troy_s> s/ir/it
<lizardking_> troy_s: However if you wife advice me, I will chaned the name early. I do not want to go arrested :D
<lizardking_> troy_s: I should change all files of 'oransoda' or just the package name?
<troy_s> lizardking_: I'll ask for some free legal advice when she gets home
<troy_s> lizardking_: My gut tells me that if it is a registered trademark that you might want to avoid the complexity and simply change it...
<troy_s> but again, it is well out of my knowledge sphere.
<lizardking_> troy_s: Thank you very much, friend. What Should I do now?
<troy_s> No idea.
<lizardking_> change the wiki page name, the package name, the files ...etc?
<troy_s> lizardking_: My personal thinking would be to avoid registered trademarks.
<lizardking_> troy_s: My personal too :D
<troy_s> lizardking_: but that is your choice... if you want to keep going with it, then it would require some official lawyer thinking.
<lizardking_> troy_s: But it's a big work to rename all occurrencies. I must rename page wiki, package, files, launchpad product. Right?
<troy_s> The problem is that brand trademarks are very often guarded and protected by the companies that own them.
<lizardking_> troy_s: Yes and I haven't that support
<troy_s> lizardking_: Yes it would be, unfortunately.  I don't see much of any other way.
<lizardking_> troy_s: Ok So I will create a new page wiki and other rest
<troy_s> For example, you can't put the Pepsi logo on anything, in any capacity, that isn't officially endorsed by Pepsi.
<lizardking_> right!
<lizardking_> you are right
<troy_s> The problem lies in the fact that branding in the our current society often distills down to the simple use of a logo (Nike, etc.)
<lizardking_> it is possibile to rename page wiki? :D
<troy_s> yes
<troy_s> Think before you do it though -- you will need to try and figure out where all the cross links come from.
<troy_s> Pull down tab renames.
<lizardking_> troy_s: So I should wait your wife or now starting to rename all links?
<troy_s> Even if you get a lawyer's opinion, you will find another lawyer who could argue it.
<troy_s> The problem lies in the fact that there is a _chance_ for issues, and my gut instinct tells me to simply avoid the hassle and avoid it all together.
<troy_s> But again, that is _my_ opinion, and not exactly grounded in an extensive knowledge of global trademark law ;)
<lizardking_> Mhh ok understand. I m sure to change name
<lizardking_> Now It is time to work hard to change all name links,  files , wiki etc.. sobh :8
<troy_s> Most importantly are the logo appearances.
<lizardking_> troy_s: for example?
<lizardking_> This is the central page for the development of the Oransoda theme --> the OrangeSoda
<lizardking_> ??'
<troy_s> If that is your title...
<troy_s> I don't know how many occurances of the OranSoda(TM) logo you have
<lizardking_> I have some occurances and the wiki page name
<lizardking_> troy_s: damn, http://www.orangesoda.com/ anohter TM
<troy_s> it is possible
<troy_s> but the reality is that the name "Orange Soda" is pretty generic
<troy_s> I would say that your design versus theirs is quite inherently different
<lizardking_> So I must pick a less generic name?
<troy_s> Ultimately, it is up to you.
<troy_s> But I think that whatever name you settle on
<troy_s> If you were to say, like Orange Soda
<troy_s> I wouldn't worry about the trademark too much as your design is quite different from theirs
<troy_s> it only really becomes an issue if you start using official logos
<troy_s> etc.
<troy_s> But I preface all of that with the reminder that we are 'guessing' on some level, as we are not lawyers ;)
<lizardking_> yes right. We are not lawyers
<lizardking_> troy_s: OranSun, how does it sounds?
<lizardking_> troy_s: Are you there?
<troy_s> Yes
<lizardking_> troy_s: I just alert Daniel Holbach of renaming the package. Now  I wait his answer and then If YES I work hard to rename it
<lizardking_> the main candidates is: OranSun
<lizardking_> troy_s: Now I return to study
<lizardking_> troy_s:  bye bye. See U soon if meantime they has not put me in jails :D
<troy_s> Lol
<troy_s> take care lizardking_
<lizardking_> troy_s: I will do it after Daniel'answer
<lizardking_> bye
<lizardking> troy_s: I have some news
<lizardking> it seems good news
<troy_s> ?
<troy_s> damn
<troy_s> chroot just hooped my system
<troy_s> back in an hour -- whee.
<lizardking> troys_s look at this http://www.wipo.int/cgi-mad/guest/ifetch5?ENG+MADRID-FULL.vdb+11+1200595-KEY+256+0+8814+BASICHTML-ENG+7+50+1+25+SEP-0/HITNUM,PN,MAR,,,IMAGE+HOL%2fcampari+
<lizardking> Hi
<lizardking> troy_s: hi
<lizardking> troy_s: i'm leaving
<troy_s> Nightmarish reinstall scenario
<lizardking> troy_s: after I was telling you
<troy_s> What was the good news?
<lizardking> I dig the search in WIPO site
<lizardking> troy_s: Do you know WIPO?
<troy_s> No.
<lizardking> troy_s: I must go. I leave you with the news. Wipo is World Intellectual Proprerty oraganization, in the site there is a seargh engines for tradmarks
<lizardking> troy_s: I search oransoda
<lizardking> and...
<troy_s> And it wasn't there
<troy_s> But that doesn't mean that a laywer hasn't legally registered the trademark for OranSoda with their respective government legislative process.
<lizardking> troy_s: no no is there but
<lizardking> troy_s: click here http://www.wipo.int/cgi-mad/guest/ifetch5?ENG+MADRID-FULL.vdb+11+1200595-KEY+256+0+8814+BASICHTML-ENG+7+50+1+25+SEP-0/HITNUM,PN,MAR,,,IMAGE+HOL%2fcampari+
<troy_s> My Italian stinks.
<lizardking> troy_s: the numer 511 tell the the classification of the registrated trademark. And it is reported in frech things like food, drinks, marmelade, jams, parfums...
<troy_s> Although I recognize Ice Cream in there!
<lizardking> troy_s: Yeah yeah!
<troy_s> Oh yes... it is French sorry
<lizardking> troy_s: Campari is italian
<lizardking> troy_s: I leave now. i have basketball match :D Hoping to win..
<troy_s> Still a scary thought to me.  But again, you are free to do what you wish regarding usage of the name.
<troy_s> Bah.  Play hockey.  ;)
<lizardking> troy_s: cool
<lizardking> troy_s: however I have ask Daniel and Matthew East.. I'm waiting for them
<lizardking> bye
* mode/#ubuntu-artwork [+o troy_s]  by ChanServ
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-artwork:troy_s] : Welcome to #ubuntu-artwork!  Animated SVG anyone?  http://tavmjong.free.fr/INKSCAPE/DRAWINGS/clock2.svg -- Feisty Firefox might gag on it.
* mode/#ubuntu-artwork [-o troy_s]  by troy_s
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-02-02
<darkmatter> boy... its noisy in here ;)
<elkbuntu> deafeningly
<troy_s> check the topic darkmatter
<troy_s> its pretty bloody impressive
<troy_s> first animated svg i have seen
<darkmatter> looking
<troy_s> it only apparently renders properly in firefox edgy
<troy_s> feisty its refresh is busted or something
<darkmatter> that is very impressive
<troy_s> check the code in the svg
<troy_s> ridiculously simple
<Madpilot> try Opera - it animates perfectly in 9.10/Linux
<darkmatter> looking
<troy_s> Madpilot: It works for me in FF2
<troy_s> But it would be nice if the bloody gnome image app rendered it properly (read animated)
<darkmatter> cool... that code is rediculously simple
<darkmatter> I'm keeping a copy for reference
<darkmatter> troy_s, you've seen the current state of "MorningGlory. think I shuld etch in the scrolltroughs and the rangetroughs to match the shadows/frames?
<troy_s> i would need to probably play with it a bit...
<troy_s> let me do some symlinking.
<darkmatter> k
<nysosym> good morning :)
<nysosym> I have an idea about a consistent design for ubuntu apps etc. . I the past i have a had a nice talk with troy_s, about devs with perfect code skills but without design skills. What we need is a design guide like OSX and Vista, well formed with many details. A new point from me, is a thing like a certificate for new apps, with a mark like "designed for ubuntu". Free for devs, tested from the community. What do u think about?
<nysosym> For a well integration in the ubuntu desktop
<nysosym> and a consistent user experience
<nysosym> sry for my english
<darkmatter> mornin' klepas
<klepas> hey darkmatter
<klepas> sorry i haven't been around much as of late
<klepas> things should get started shortly
<nysosym> r
<nysosym> e
<darkmatter> cool
<nysosym> darkmatter: what?
<darkmatter> hi nysosym... saw your comment earlier
<darkmatter> the cool was aimed at klepas ;)
<nysosym> and, what do u think?
<darkmatter> I totally agree.. I've been working on similar ideas... just havent added them to wiki and/or launchpad yet
<darkmatter> though mine was a bit more generalized than ubuntu
<nysosym> can u tell me your idea please? :)
<darkmatter> we basically need to develop a "hig" for application structure
<darkmatter> much like how tango established a uniform icon theme structure using the fd.o specs
<darkmatter> the major problem with applicationstructure is a matter of what I refer to as "widget abuse" or "misuse"
<nysosym> yes, good point. gnome and kde have a "hig", but a very small part of devs use them
<darkmatter> for example... how some apps use GtkTreeView where they should use "normal" widgets
<darkmatter> or how there are inconsistancies in ui layout
<darkmatter> like... seperators nect to scrollbars... or the use of frames, etc... even in enviroments with guidlines, like gnome... there is an inconsistant mishmash of ui elements
<darkmatter> it would basically serve two purposes... one is obviously a more consistant ui
<nysosym> yes, i have a look on them, i think we should improve the documentation...
<darkmatter> the second is to ease the burden on themers... so somewhat inspired by the tango project in that regard
<darkmatter> basically... we need to polish the hig with a secondary set of guideines... brainstorm as to what widget classes are used where
<darkmatter> and set rules for application development to promote proper use of said widgets
<nysosym> yes, and we need a impulsion for devs to use these guidelines
<darkmatter> yes
<nysosym> maybe a badge for her website for a perfect integration in human desktops :D
<darkmatter> example of a possible element.... contents must be framed and scrollbar widgets must be located within said frame (only a thought)
<darkmatter> example: look at an open nautilus browser window and then open a file selection dialog, or the background prefs, etc
<darkmatter> there is an eyesore of a discrepancy in the ui... yes they are different applications... but its irrelevant.. the fact is that there is a discrepancy in the manner in which widgets are allocated
<nysosym> fully agreed :)
<darkmatter> there is a 'human' interface guidline but no interface design guidline
<nysosym> it's the same with a different name, i think :D
<nysosym> a perfect interface should be made for humans
<darkmatter> there is... in otherwords... a guide to designing the layout... but none for the aesthetic elements
<darkmatter> aye
<nysosym> yes, but it's a amazing work, to finde the perfect way for all humans (old ones, childs, challenged person etc.)
<darkmatter> yes
<nysosym> Maybe a dynamical interface for every category, but everyone has all function, only on a other position
<darkmatter> thats just the initial "plan"... eventually... it would be nice (f the devs accepted the guidelines) to implement a fully governed coop methodology to the actual interface design process (basically a tag of approval... a gtk+ version of w3c certification)
<darkmatter> is already partially implemented in the hig... but theres a lot of design methodology that is uncovered... basically its left "loose"
<nysosym> Yes, yes, we should write some important points in the wiki, for comments from every user group.
<darkmatter> yes
<nysosym> but for the next time, we should define the points in a small user group to have a overview and have a prefilter of bad points, where we think that are "good" point. Because i'm aren't a child ect.
<darkmatter> see... the project I'm starting is currently just "live" mockups done with the pixmap engine to test design elements... eventually the idea is to great a universal engine (heavily documented) as well as a theme template... now... part of the difficulty in doing that lead to the though of a secondary hig as it were... simply... as long as widget allocation continues to be "abused" it will be a constant uphill battle to include hacks
<darkmatter> and various other overrides in the code to compensate for "misbehaving" applications. even the most current engines require theme hacks for proper application coverage
<darkmatter> if I'm not making sense just let me no ;) (3:56am here)
<darkmatter> and even then... there are certain elements that cannot be fixed simply because of the manner in which the applications interface is designed
<nysosym> sure, i think these make sense.
<nysosym> But a completely new engine? Ok good way, but a huge project
<nysosym> I think we should improve the old one, for gtk 3.0 maybe
<darkmatter> in a modern os.... regardless whether its f/oss or not... such... forgive my bluntness... sloppy and lazy design should not exist
<nysosym> darkmatter: i agree with u, sloppy and lazy design can't be the future. But i think we should improve the old one, maybe use good points from the old engine and integrate them in the new. From all the best :)
<darkmatter> nysosym... part of the reason is as a template... another reason is that I actually have some ideas to polish the ui that some may consider "wasteful" or "extravagant"
<nysosym> do u have some mockups, to present your ideas at moment?
<darkmatter> so by creating a well organized "template" project... devs can pull what code they wish... its not about replacing the current engine (clearlooks) or about modifying it,,, its about establishing a standard... much as tango does for icons
<darkmatter> not atm... been experimenting with some theme work... but I'll do up some hopefully this week and start a wiki page with some thoughs
<nysosym> darkmatter: sure, but tango doesn't have a endless future, at moment there are although so many people, who doesn't like the design of it.
<darkmatter> brb... need to start a pot of coffee
<nysosym> at moment tango looks very cool, but in a few years it looks like old and boring.
<nysosym> ok, have fun ;)
<nysosym> and i think this could although be the problem of a new interface design
<nysosym> have a look on the new multitouch screen, i think that's a new standard and we should have a solution to use the engine for these although. I love the Multiscreen idea, and these is the near future.
<nysosym> What we need is more dynamic in every interface, for every situation.
<darkmatter> nysosym... its not about whether or not its "cool" or if it has an "endless future"... the desktop as we know it is constantly evolving and eventually everything "ends"... even gnome as we know it now will eventually go through a chrysalis  and become something we dont regognize... but the important part is that the strengths of the preceeding generation ar incorporated into the next
<darkmatter> dynamic is ok... to a point... if a ui is to dynamic, it adds unnecessary complexity... and theres an old saying that definitely hold true... especially for software... something along the lines of "the more complex the equipment, the easier it breaks"
<darkmatter> ;)
<darkmatter> brb... xchats behaving badly
<nysosym> darkmatter: sure, sry but, have u seen the multitouch screens in action? The interface what we actual use, is senseless for these technique.
<darkmatter> nysosym.... true... but dont get me started on the other project I'm planning ;)
<darkmatter> it throws the desktop metaphor out the window then rolls over it with a semi
<darkmatter> :P
<nysosym> don't get me wrong, i have although the meaning to improve the present desktop a lot. But we must have a look in the near future, i give the multitouch system 5 years to be a standard on the market.
<nysosym> And what are 5 years? nothing ^^
<andreasn> of course the Tango style guidelines won't live for ever, heck, I guess the desktop metaphor is dead in a couple of years
<andreasn> but it's good to have something for ISVs and ISD _now_
<darkmatter> I've been working it out with a friend of mine who is an uber programmer (as in... he basically makes the vast majority of developers look like infants ;))... its literally ui zen.... but considering "zen" has been overused to the point of being cliched and boring... the current working title is TiNZ (TiNZ is Not Zen) :P
<nysosym> darkmatter: nice, when i can help u, u know where u can find me :D
<darkmatter> lol
<darkmatter> ;)
<nysosym> that's not a joke ^^
<darkmatter> I know... its just that enthusiasm makes me giddy :P
<darkmatter> haha
<nysosym> why? When we wanna improve the current desktop, we need a lot of users :D
<darkmatter> yes... but the reason it makes me giddy, is that after hearing "but thats to much work" on a regular basis from the lax sort... its nice to here a "right on!" type of response...
<darkmatter> positive is a good thing
<nysosym> darkmatter: ohh i didn't say that these to much work, i said that's a lot of work. That's a different, at moment i have many time to help and i love it to help project, when i can.
<darkmatter> the funny thing is that the initial work would be backward compatible... TiNZ as it stands in concept would integrate with current generation applications and the like (kbd an mouse manipulation, etc)... and I _though_ I had a team several months back... we _were_ going to work on the "proof of concept" system plugins... but the volunteers dropped out at the last (and thus most inconvenient) opportunity... that was a big disappointm
<darkmatter> ent
<darkmatter> nysosym, I know you never said that... and thats a good thing... the reference was to previous experience... for as I discovered... most my fellow devs are inherently lazy ;)
<darkmatter> go figure
<darkmatter> :P
<darkmatter> anyway.. kinda post-<whatever>, but good morning/afternoon/evening andreasn
<andreasn> hi there darkmatter
<nysosym> darkmatter: i understand your problems, very good, how many volunteers do u have at moment?
<darkmatter> lol... atm just a few interested parties and my guru friend
<nysosym> Ohh hi andreasn, sry for my ignorance, but i heavily busy by translation the text of darkmatter...
<andreasn> I'm busy with work anyway, so I don't really have time to chat. :)
<darkmatter> have a guy thats interested in the webdev stuff... a few interested in the art end... but not many interested in actually helping to code the core
<darkmatter> like I said... lazy ;)
<nysosym> darkmatter: maybe we should make some ads, because there a only a very little circle of people who thinking on that project :)
<nysosym> darkmatter: ok, i'm aren't a coder (what a wonder ^^), i'm mainly the design type :D
<darkmatter> yeah... I just need to make a few rough mockups n stuff for a general brainstorm starting point.
<darkmatter> thats fine
<darkmatter> design is a big part of development
<darkmatter> actually... the biggest
<nysosym> ok thats goog, maybe u should give me your jabber id, if u had some ;)
<darkmatter> one of the guys interested gave me an idea though.... and I agree... we need an oss community dedicated to "progressive interface design"
<darkmatter> ahhh... still need to reg a jabber id
<nysosym> hehe no problem :D
<nysosym> darkmatter: yes, but we need a web presence, to find new people.
<darkmatter> yes
<darkmatter> thats part of the ideabehind starting a site
<nysosym> ok, you said that u have a one with webdev skills? :D
<darkmatter> yup
<nysosym> what's wrong, u need a server?
<darkmatter> basically
<darkmatter> on topic of ui progression
<darkmatter> I've had shouting matches with devs that completely lack any knowledge of user psychology
<darkmatter> I mean... I code myself... technically a dev n all.. just no "mainstream product" as it were
<nysosym> darkmatter: i think http://www.berlios.de/index.php.en is a good webseite to host freely :D
<darkmatter> but seriously.... even using current api... you can completely transform the user experience without the need to break api compatibility an such
<darkmatter> most devs _cannot_ come to grips with that concept
<darkmatter> nysosym, lol... why didnt I think of berlios
* darkmatter bangs head
<nysosym> hehe :D
<darkmatter> user psychology is _the_ paramount element
<darkmatter> if you create metaphors that are user centric... even if they are only perceived as such... it creates the desired effect
<darkmatter> thats the first stage.... basically hybridization of the environment
<darkmatter> that can be done _NOW_ without major work or manhours
<darkmatter> stage two is were the real work begins... thats when you begin rewriting api at a core level
<nysosym> hmm that's aren't easy, ok i can make an interface that's perfectly matches for my interests
<nysosym> but a interface for all :D
<nysosym> what would be do, create a new interface on GTK+ a completely new desktop, with new widgets, menus ect.?
<nysosym> be=we
<darkmatter> lol.... I'm referring to "proof of concept"...  example... you can... in a matter of minutes... create an apparently windowless environment using metacity... and I'm serious... I've tried
<darkmatter> user psychology is amazing
<darkmatter> human perception... period. thats the primary element
<darkmatter> ahhh.... partly create a new ui
<nysosym> matter of minutes is easy to say :D
<nysosym> what we need, are some ground ideas
<darkmatter> basically... a "primary" interface that... at first... is simply an extension designed to integrate with the current environment (gnome, xfce, whatever)
<nysosym> Hmm ok, therefore i should use current gtk+ elements
<darkmatter> its user centric.... and from the users viewpoint... activity focused (basically.... in the mindset of the user, it puts there data, or "activity" as it were... first and foremost)
<darkmatter> nysosym, yes... although custom widgets may be needed to an extent... its best at first to use existing elements
<nysosym> well, what would we use from the old interface, panels, a dock like osx, startmenu ect.?
<darkmatter> so... as I was saying about putting the activity first.... we'd use (as a loose example) "Surf the Internet", "Explore the Web" or something similar in place of opening a browser
<darkmatter> nysosym, at first... the only old inteface would really be the applications.... the concept (thus far... just a starting point), is to create an "activity center" (basically a shelf/wharf or whatever name you want to refer to it as and its "library" component)
<darkmatter> it would initially offer a "hybrid mode" (would be 'standard' with the "purebreed" as the "optional" config) to aid in user migration
<darkmatter> the hybrid mode would have a 'menu' after a fashion
<nysosym> ok i understand a interface like the "one laptop per child" project or these one http://www.focus.de/digital/pc/senioren-pc_aid_21615.html?interface=galerie
<nysosym> ok, i need some food :D
<nysosym> brb
<darkmatter> basically a panel with the most common activites and library shortcuts, some form of list for open documents etc
<darkmatter> kk
<darkmatter> the purebred would be quite different... an interactive shelf "basically" composed of 'miniapps'... that would serve as both a quick interface and a notification center (and excuse the following poor analogy... it doesnt do the concept justice), the miniapps or whatever the end up being referred to would be somewhat 'widget like'
<darkmatter> this shelf would not use a traditional menu... but would make exclusive use of the "library"
<darkmatter> this is where it gets interesting... so I'll wait for you to return before I continue babbling ;)
<klepas> darkmatter: dude, will you be on in like 2 hours?
<darkmatter> klepas, probably be sleepin'... why?
<klepas> bugger
<klepas> finally freed of some work and wanted to chat :)
<darkmatter> lol
<darkmatter> definitely bugger
<darkmatter> klepas, I can "attempt" to stay awake long enough to chat... but no promises... I'm just drained from my medical trip and should have actually been asleep several hours ago ;)
<kwwii> moin
<kwwii> anyone feel like making an inoc?
<kwwii> s/inoc/icon
<kwwii> apport needs an icon (small sizes mainly)
<kwwii> sent a mail to the list, so check that for more informaiton
<nysosym> darkmatter: i thinking on u, but i must go to work now.
<nysosym> have a nice day, and thx for conversation
<darkmatter> ok.. have a good day :)
<klepas> darkmatter: rar
<darkmatter> yo'
<klepas> what's the time for you?
<klepas> 5 AM? :P
<darkmatter> lol
<darkmatter> actually
<darkmatter> its 7:16
<darkmatter> am
<darkmatter> :P
<darkmatter> just doin' some sketchin; in front of the puter
<klepas> all nighter, eh?
<klepas> tablet?
<darkmatter> yeah... backsides to sore to sleep... lump seating on the bus
<darkmatter> nope
<darkmatter> sketchbook
<darkmatter> ;)
<klepas> i need to get back into that
<klepas> sort of lost it all when i got the computer and college started
<klepas> on that note, final year is about to begin monday
<klepas> d'oh :(
<darkmatter> I do digital art.. but mostly for fun atm.. until I get a decent tablet... my first love was always traditional... and I need that feedback.. to feel something under my fingers... a mouse is ok... but slow.. just doesnt cut it for me speed wise
<darkmatter> ahhh.. final year eh?
<klepas> i know exactly what you mean
<klepas> yea man
<klepas> i have a tablet though
<klepas> that i've neglected too
<klepas> Wacom Intuos3 A5-wide
<klepas> <3 it
<darkmatter> ahh
<darkmatter> I want a wacom
<darkmatter> badly
<darkmatter> they're just awesome
<klepas> if you work on a widescreen
<klepas> get a wide tablet
<klepas> it's sort of a must
<darkmatter> played with one once.. got hooked
<klepas> for aspect-ratio-goodness
<klepas> mhh
<darkmatter> yup
<klepas> need to get xmodmap to map my buttons to functions
<darkmatter> hmmm... even one of the cheap lil wacoms would work ftm... I think the puter shop has a few in stock
<klepas> yea
<klepas> i got the one i have as a gift
<klepas> i would have gone much smaller otherwise
<darkmatter> then I can spit out designs n whatnot at warp speed
<klepas> :)
<klepas> most of my work is done in inkscape though atm
<klepas> and it's user interface/concept/web design/web app work
<klepas> so a tablet is more for my own leisure
<darkmatter> the mouse is the moost handicapped interface ever designed.... and I'm not strictly referring to its handicap with gfx utils
<darkmatter> cool
<darkmatter> most of myui concept is on paper... in prismacolor...lol
<klepas> <3 my new logitech though :P
<klepas> np: Various artists - Eyerer & Laib - The chord (Original Mix)
<darkmatter> translatng it with a mouse is slow, staged and tedious
<darkmatter> yeah.. I love my logi too
<darkmatter> best mice imho
<darkmatter> comfy and relatively ergonomic
<klepas> http://umart.net/au/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=5&products_id=102347 <-- after 8 months of that
<darkmatter> starting another to theme experiments while I continue work on MorningGlory
<klepas> http://umart.net/au/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=5&products_id=102982 <-- to that
<klepas> G7 wireless :)
<klepas> http://umart.net/au/images/logg7.jpg
<darkmatter> nice
<klepas> mv to pm
<troy_s> wow darkmatter... that's a lot of text :)
<darkmatter> troy_s, yup... and its not getting finished till nysosym's back
<darkmatter> :P
<troy_s> what is that in relationship to?
<troy_s> "basically a panel with the most common activites and library shortcuts," probably should adhere to the 7+-2
<troy_s> heading towards 5
<troy_s> and " if you create metaphors that are user centric... even if they are only perceived as such..." has some issues culturally
<troy_s> the metaphors are language and cultural based
<troy_s> so ideally gnome integrates the language dependencies into the overarching design scheme
<troy_s> kwwii did you get those palette theory blocks?
<kwwii> troy_s: yeah, I was just looking through my mail
<kwwii> nifty stuff
<troy_s> Good... hopefully they are self explanatory
<troy_s> IIRC that was the tan in question correct?
<troy_s> If you have another tan you are thinking of, just forward me the hex values.
<kwwii> troy_s: it was right on the money
<kwwii> today is my birthday, so I am kinda busy...going out for dinner soon
<troy_s> Woot.
<troy_s> Happy birfday
<kwwii> thanks man
<troy_s> By the way, those strips don't quite do justice to the idea that you can have a central base color (obviously)
<kwwii> true
<troy_s> A good thing to try is to take your base color strip one side down into a third, and take 2/3s of it
<troy_s> then 1/3 of the last
<troy_s> so you get a feel for a basic color.
<kwwii> cool, I'll need to play around with them to get a good feeling of how they work out
<troy_s> darkmatter: "its not about replacing the current engine (clearlooks) or about modifying it,,, its about establishing a standard... much as tango does for icons"
<troy_s> The problem with that is that Icons are completely rooted in aesthetic.
<andreasn> kwwii: happy birthday!
<troy_s> You can't expect Tango to meet the needs of any group without considering that the aesthetic is inherent to the set.
<troy_s> Meaning it simply won't work for some implmentations.
<troy_s> I was toying with a python script that twiddles values in the SVG xml to have a 'dynamic' icon set, but it requires the icons to have certain colour constants in it the same way that transparency was handled in the early days of video games (palette index 255 for example)
<troy_s> darkmatter:  That said, aesthetics completely aside, the issue you raise with _consistent_ application of user interface elements based on a target audience would be a very good thing to formalize in a document.
<andreasn> all I want to have is sane interfaces that makes my customers users get their work done :)
<troy_s> I suppose the fundamental issue is how to arrange it -- as some target audiences are hybrid types.
<troy_s> andreasn: that's certainly a factor, but aesthetics is another real factor
<troy_s> andreasn: and the fundamental problem is that icons are now very very obsolete -- you can't expect a new user or even a familiar user to identify a purpose based on icon
<troy_s> it is simply impossible considering the breadth and complexity of the software landscape
<troy_s> which is why I am a big believer in interface elements similar to Deskbar -- use the semantics of language.
<andreasn> yes developers put too many icons in their interfaces to make them pretty?
<troy_s> yes
<troy_s> and the fact that
<troy_s> icon artists tend to be folks building resumes
<troy_s> which is completely defeatest in terms of strict functionality
<troy_s> icons shouldn't be minor works of fine art no more than roadsigns are
<andreasn> agreed
<andreasn> and you want your roadsigns to be in some particular style?
<troy_s> I think what would be nice is an attempt to address the motifs/memes/metaphors -- but even that is complicated when you consider the scope of contemporary software in the contexts of disabilities, ethnicities, and trends.
<troy_s> andreasn: If we could somehow come up with a way to nerf the aesthetics of icons (which I don't see happening) then yes.
<troy_s> erm
<troy_s> no -- ;)
<troy_s> It would be nice if we could establish glyphs for a particular size that are clear and consistent.
<troy_s> As soon as you add in colour and stylings though, they take on aesthetics.
<troy_s> My only qualm with Tango is that ultimately, it is aesthetic.
<troy_s> Greetings coz_
<coz_> troy_s, hey guy thought I wold try this tim eof the day:)
<troy_s> You missed quite an interesting discussion on interface earlier.
<troy_s> which is a good reason to idle and log the channel :)
<coz_> oh? ok i will have to do that
<andreasn> well, I would say it's a about making stuff more predictable for ISVs
<troy_s> andreasn: ?
<troy_s> andreasn: How can you make it predictable and aesthetically integrated?
<troy_s> andreasn: To draw an analogy, I suppose a set of overalls would do for a wedding as you have pockets for the rings, loose fitting for the length of the event, etc.
<troy_s> andreasn: but in terms of aesthetics, it is far from optimal (not ruling out that someone might have an overall based wedding ;) )
<coz_> troy_s, i would go to that wedding :)
<andreasn> a wedding is not a interface
<troy_s> andreasn: An interface isn't _simply_ a control set anymore
<troy_s> Arguably a computer is an interface on some level
<troy_s> and computers are far more important in terms of lifestyle than they ever have been.
<troy_s> In a similar comparison, consider cell phones and their evolution from the brick style to the xxx style.
<coz_> andreasn, what are your views on an interface
<troy_s> It is a simple fact that people choose computing based on stylistic choices -- hence the "I'm a mac, I'm a pc" advertising campaign.
<coz_> silly mac people :)
<troy_s> We must accept that fundamentally, computing is something much more than gadgetry -- they are becoming reflective of the beings that utilize them -- much like clothing etc.
<troy_s> coz_ Preaching to the choir.
<troy_s> ;)
<coz_> lol
<andreasn> coz_: well, right now I think it's pretty good to have a set of style guidelines that my customers that produce interfaces for letting people get their work done is a good thing
<troy_s> andreasn: That is very ... utopian.
<troy_s> in practical terms, what does that imply?
<coz_> andreasn, what is it you and your customers do , i was absent from the origninal discussion
<troy_s> Does that include a set of design guidelines that tell them how to organize data in a GUI etc.?
<andreasn> that the platform is slightly more predictable
<andreasn> coz_: applications
<troy_s> andreasn: Are you speaking purely of web based dynamics?
<coz_> andreasn, any particular type of applications
<troy_s> andreasn: or for computing as a whole?
<andreasn> troy_s: like Human Interface Guidelines?
<troy_s> andreasn: those are a load of rubbish.
<troy_s> andreasn: If you read through them, they are written in a completely unrealistic scope.
<andreasn> well, they are good, as you don't need to relearn stuff a million times
<troy_s> andreasn: From a distinctly 'westernized' vantage I might add... (although LTR is getting a little more attention.)
<troy_s> If they met the needs of a particular audience they would be good -- which they do -- but they seem to ignore the fact that there are distinct classes of audience.
<troy_s> No one interface guideline will work for any more than a percentage of targets.
<coz_> troy_s, I have a problem with software that is geared towrds classes of people
<coz_> ot interfaces for that matter
<troy_s> It is simply unrealistic, useless, and completely misleading.  Not to mention that it also waters down the fact that certain people have certain needs, and that those needs must be addressed or else you risk leaving _that_ audience with a half assed implementation.
<troy_s> coz_ Then you should examine languages role in all of this
<andreasn> well, of course you need to have target audiences for you application
<troy_s> languages, culture, abilities, etc... all different classes.
<troy_s> Not to mention age.
<coz_> troy_s, oh I see what you mean .... I wouldnt classify that as classes
<troy_s> andreasn: Exactly.  And that audience will have needs that _might_ be in complete contrast to one of the established 'guidelines'
<coz_> troy_s, age?
<troy_s> coz_ Age -- a child will have motor differences as well as logical difference in how they approach an interface.
<coz_> troy_s, yes i agree I used to teach elemetary school but
<troy_s> coz_ Just as an elderly person would have motor, possible visual, audio, etc. differences.  And also a different level of interface paradigm expectation.
<PingunZ> troy_s, have you seen my new beryl theme ?
<coz_> troy_s, ooo new beryl theme?
<troy_s> We need to figure out a way to generate 'layers' based on particular needs... that could perhaps be stacked to meet the needs of a given target audience.
<troy_s> PingunZ: no.
<PingunZ> troy_s, http://pingunz.googlepages.com/stylish.jpeg
<andreasn> you could probably design a specific interface for everyone of your users, but is it practically possible?
<coz_> andreasn, no it is not practical
<troy_s> andreasn: Well that is part of the fundamental problem isn't it...
<PingunZ> troy_s, like it ? :)
<troy_s> that approach is dead
<troy_s> PingunZ: little windows blue vistaish for my aesthetic.  But it certainly is clean looking.
<troy_s> andreasn: Do you think there is a way to develop smaller subsets and apply 'design guidelines'?
<PingunZ> why does everyone say it's vista ish ? it _isn't_
<troy_s> For example, a switch that you toggle for 'motor impairment', 'language', etc.
<troy_s> PingunZ: Blue and grey
<andreasn> I think using personas more would help GNOME a lot
<PingunZ> troy_s, blue ?
<coz_> PingunZ, I think the way you applied the buttons gives people the imprssion of vista but I reallt don't see that myself
<troy_s> PingunZ: The buttons are particularly vista.  The blue is Windows/OSX.  The grey is somewhere in the middle.
<troy_s> PingunZ: If you step back 10 feet and compare it with another screenshot, you will see what I mean.
<troy_s> andreasn: Explain
<troy_s> andreasn: It sounds interesting.
<PingunZ> sheesh
<troy_s> lol
<coz_> andreasn, I would also like an explanation
<andreasn> Alan Cooper discusses it in "Inmates"
<troy_s> andreasn: is that a reference work?  I never have heard of it.
<troy_s> andreasn: or fiction.
<coz_> andreasn, can we hear your own words about it
<andreasn> can't remember if he does it in About Face
<andreasn> http://www.amazon.com/Inmates-Are-Running-Asylum-Products/dp/0672326140/sr=8-1/qid=1170433102/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/103-9766325-5571011?ie=UTF8&s=books
<coz_> andreasn, I have just written letters to gnome, and had them answered about some of their approaches but I would like to know what you meant abaout personas
<coz_> andreasn, more user input?
<andreasn> coz_: made up characters that help you remember who you're designing for
<andreasn> http://www.amazon.com/About-Face-2-0-Essentials-Interaction/dp/0764526413/sr=8-1/qid=1170433129/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/103-9766325-5571011?ie=UTF8&s=books
<coz_> andreasn, well then i agree with you
<andreasn> that's About Face 2.0, 3.0 should be out soon
<andreasn> there is also a quite nice book by Jef Raskin called "The Humane Interface"
<coz_> andreasn, one of the problems I have encountered with programmers , of the old school of thinking, is that they make applications for themselves not for users
<andreasn> in witch Jef says that icons are stupid
<andreasn> coz_: that and a lot of "but what if...'s" :)
<andreasn> anyway, regarding icons, we have made sure that everything is more themable now, even in applications like evince and file-roller
<coz_> andreasn, well I like quin sotrms approach  that the line between programmer anduser is very blurred
<coz_> quin storm
<andreasn> someone just have to draw them though
<coz_> andreasn, then let it be the user
<coz_> that draws the line
<andreasn> no, I mean the icons for evince and file-roller and stuff
<andreasn> and epy as well
<andreasn> and some other apps
<andreasn> well, whatever, I need to run now
<andreasn> later!
<coz_> ok I am getting general and you guys are a little more specific about this ok
<andreasn> http://www.amazon.com/Humane-Interface-Directions-Designing-Interactive/dp/0201379376/sr=8-1/qid=1170433385/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/103-9766325-5571011?ie=UTF8&s=books
<andreasn> raskins book
<coz_> well I find that talking about things such as this is fine but I prefer action... howver I know not what action to take
<troy_s> read raskins
<troy_s> wtf
<troy_s> where the feck is gnome.applet bindings in python
<lizardking> hi
<lizardking_> Hi
<lizardking_> Whos is there?
<lizardking_> troy_s: I ask my friends that is a lawyer
<troy_s> and?
<lizardking_> troy_s: He tell me that There would be andy problem because art-theming and drink/food are classificated are different sectors. The trademark is applied only in the in similar category (food drink etc)
<troy_s> good luck defending that one though..
<troy_s> :)
<lizardking_> troy_s: However he tells me that btw the risk of getting in trouble is 0% if I change the name
<troy_s> exactly :)
<lizardking_> troy_s: Do you have any news from your wife?
<troy_s> not yet
<troy_s> but again, that is why you hire lawyers -- they fight it out
<troy_s> ultimately, there is the possibility for trouble
<troy_s> i would just avoid it :)
<lizardking_> troy_s: I'm just thinking "which" name
<lizardking_> troy_s: OranSun?
<troy_s> OrangeSoda is pretty relevant no?
<lizardking_> troy_s: Daniel tells me how to change the product in launchpad
<lizardking_> troy_s: OrangeSoda is good but it is a TM too
<troy_s> yes it is quite easy
<troy_s> yes but completely unrelated to a colour scheme etc.
<lizardking_> troy_s: not exactly. the logo is dark orange and the service provided is ONLINE marketing
<troy_s> completely unrelated --
<troy_s> the issue is the fact that you used oransoda and used that as the base for the colour scheme
<troy_s> which _was_ related
<troy_s> orangesoda is just a term
<troy_s> it happens to also be a name
<troy_s> but they are completely unreleated in terms of colour etc...
<lizardking_> troy_s: So, also italian Oransoda drink is completly unrelated. I did not pick the color from the oransoda italian logo.
<troy_s> but again, that would be a lawyer thing.
<troy_s> Well the logo orange is close isn't it?
<lizardking_> troy_s: I use darker tonality some times in my theme in the wallapaper :)
<troy_s> ah.
<troy_s> well then i guess it isn't an issue
<troy_s> my logic was that OranSoda doesn't exist
<troy_s> but OrangeSoda does
<troy_s> Orange Soda is an actual thing
<troy_s> whereas OranSoda can mean nothing but the soft drink in Italy.
<troy_s> as in Orange Soda is a generic object
<troy_s> OranSoda can be nothing but something akin to Pepsi
<lizardking_> Hi
<lizardking_> troy_s: we
<troy_s> ?
<lizardking_> troy_s: I made a survey for renaming my theme
<lizardking_> troy_s: http://FreeOnlineSurveys.com/rendersurvey.asp?sid=9o1z70uepat89xd262494
<troy_s> lol
<lizardking_> troy_s: TangerinSoda
<troy_s> gah
<lizardking_> troy_s: eheh
<lizardking_> troy_s: TangerSoda
<lizardking_> AranSoda
<lizardking_> Arancia is the orange fruit in italian
<lizardking_> :D
<troy_s> ALongWalkInARoundaboutWayToGetToTheFactThatThisIsAnOrangeLook
<troy_s> ;)
<lizardking_> troy_s: I'm a genious. OrunSoda
<lizardking_> how did you spell it?
<troy_s> ?
<lizardking_> O run Soda
<troy_s> Orange?
<lizardking_> O run Soda -> oransoda
<troy_s> What is an oran?
<troy_s> or an orun for that matter?
<troy_s> lol
<lizardking_> troy_s: it is nothing
<lizardking_> troy_s: Just the pronunce of orun is like oran
<lizardking_> if you say running.. hihihi
<lizardking_> troy_s: in spanish it's cool http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naranja_(fruto)
<lizardking_> NaranSoda
<msikma> I don't get it. a petition to name his theme without showing what it even looks like.
<troy_s> wb darkmatter
<darkmatter> afternoon troy_s
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-02-03
<drew1313> hello all
<lizardking> hi
<lizardking_> hi
<bersace> Hi all
<bersace> hey 17 users !
<bersace> so
<bersace> ok 16
<bersace> what do you all think about the update-notifier icons ?
<bersace> i find it very inconsistent with the all other panel icons
<bersace> also, no one from my clueless user base understand this icons
<bersace> troy_s: hi bro !
<bersace> what do you think of that ?
<bersace> is update-notifier icon even themable ?
<coz_> evening all
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-02-04
<coz_> darkmatter, hey guy how goes the theme?
<Eleaf> I want to make art
<Eleaf> ;p
<troy_s> lol
<troy_s> I don't believe that much is stopping you.
<Eleaf> it's for real troy_s
<Eleaf> I need cereal.
<Eleaf> but what would I make art for troy_s ?
<Eleaf> Professional icons are tough, lots of work for a full suite.
<Eleaf> I wouldn't mind individual app icons, but that's not to unified.
<Eleaf> what do you reccomend I do troy_s ?
<troy_s> Probably not a great guy to ask.  I would probably suggest that you figure out where you _want_ to help.
<Eleaf> anywhere.
<Eleaf> Is there a wiki page of needed artwork?
<Eleaf> ??
<troy_s> No
<troy_s> You could possibly look through bugs
<troy_s> and see if you can change something.  That said, there is nothing to assure that your work will get inserted.
<Eleaf> troy_s, bah.
<Eleaf> There should be a wiki page of stuff needng artwork
<BHSPitMonkey> special folders definitely need artwork
<BHSPitMonkey> like Computer, Trash, etc.
<BHSPitMonkey> Trash should have a junkyard as its default wallpaper definitely
<BHSPitMonkey> And Computer, a blurry jpeg of a motherboard
<Eleaf> special folders eh?
<Eleaf> BHSPitLappy, what do you mean trash should have a junkyard wallpaper?
<BHSPitMonkey> the Trash folder
<BHSPitMonkey> it's all about immersion
<Eleaf> BHSPitLappy, I'm confused
<Eleaf> oh oh.
<Eleaf> in nautilus?
<BHSPitMonkey> yup
<Eleaf> hehe, how do you do that anyways?
<BHSPitMonkey> right click
<BHSPitMonkey> oh
<Eleaf> Ah, how do you make that default though.
<BHSPitMonkey> it's on the View menu, my bad.
<Eleaf> Like if you where to make it default in ubuntu
<BHSPitMonkey> Edit actually
<Eleaf> lol
<BHSPitMonkey> Uhh, they'd make it so.
<BHSPitMonkey> It's very possible.
<BHSPitMonkey> Read a book, gosh.
<Eleaf> ??
<Eleaf> BHSPitLappy, that applies it to all backgrounds.
<Eleaf> not just the trash.
<Eleaf> lol
<BHSPitMonkey> nu uh
<BHSPitMonkey> it's on a per-folder basis
<BHSPitMonkey> never mind.  But still!
<BHSPitMonkey> nothing is impossible!
<Eleaf> lol
<darkmatter> using emblems n folders dialog you can set a bg for an individual folder or all folders
<darkmatter> choice is up to you
<darkmatter> so its easy enough to do
<Eleaf> how darkmatter
<Eleaf> whenever I drag it on there, it sets it for all
<Eleaf> I don't see an option for only the current window
<darkmatter> right click drag a bg instead of left click drag
<Eleaf> oh
<darkmatter> it'll give you a menu once you drop it
<darkmatter> I dont actually think thats documented though. but it should be. a lot of users dont know its there
<darkmatter> BHSPitMonkey, I actually think it should be a trash can bg with like, a rotten banana peel next to it... maybe some tangoish flies circling ;)
<BHSPitMonkey> exactly
<BHSPitMonkey> immersion
<darkmatter> nautilus burn should be some extra crisp toast :P
<darkmatter> theres actually a few mockups on flikr from a while back suggesting default per folder bg's
<darkmatter> I'm surprised noone actually bothered doing it though
<Eleaf> darn slow key thing
<Eleaf> that thing is responsible for making my keyboard inactive for no reason
<darkmatter> http://images.google.ca/images?svnum=10&hl=en&safe=off&q=nautilus+mockups&btnG=Search <--- the first 5... they use pretty basic images... but its a valid point
<darkmatter> http://www.tux-planet.fr/blog/images/gnome_mockup/mockup_05.png <--- I always liked that one. its two glossy, plastic, and mac like theme wise... but the ui concept is a nice one
<Eleaf> hmm
<Eleaf> doesn't look that mac-like
<Eleaf> mac themes are much more elegant
<Eleaf> looks like vista ;) ;)
<darkmatter> lol... true.. but its the whole plastic/round bauble window glyph thing
<darkmatter> haha
<darkmatter> kinda bit o' both I'd say
<darkmatter> macvista gnome
<Eleaf> lol
<darkmatter> but the general idea is sound... looks totally different, but sorta follows the general 'library' concept of some mockups I've been working on
<darkmatter> thus... I like it
<darkmatter> but the theme is... meh
<coz_> morning all
<coz_> darkmatter, how goes the theme?
<darkmatter> coz_ pretty good I guess.. havent worked on it much this week
<darkmatter> been starting a couple others I wanna push along with it
<coz_> darkmatter, i didn't wake you there did I ?
<darkmatter> nope
<coz_> cool
<darkmatter> was just distracted by the gimp
<darkmatter> :P
<coz_> darkmatter, oh distracted by it?
<darkmatter> yeah... as in gimpin
<coz_> darkmatter, yeah there is a fair amount of options in gimp
<darkmatter> lol
<darkmatter> yup
<darkmatter> how have you been coz_?
<coz_> darkmatter, prtty good, have been talking to the gnomepeople about not having slab in the next version
<coz_> sirry disconnected myself
<coz_> dealing iwht gnome people about slab
<coz_> hope to have them not putit in gnome
<coz_> how the heck did i disconnect myself??
<darkmatter> why??? its utterly silly not to inckude choice ;) it can be in gnome... doesnt mean it will be or should be default
<darkmatter> but something has to replace those archaic n broken-by-design menus
<coz_> darkmatter, well the discussion I had with them was to include an option to turn it on or off
<darkmatter> thats better
<darkmatter> :P
<coz_> darkmatter, list driven menus are speedier , doesn't mean they can';t improve them but slab is, in my opinion and testing a step backwards in design
<coz_> darkmatter,  I think slab would be great for teaching kids linux, big icons big menus etc
<coz_> regardless fo what novell says , i do not believe they did testing on work output using slaba
<coz_> slab
<darkmatter> nah... not really a step backwards.. n just as fast if yer used to it..
<darkmatter> its still as broken as the menus
<darkmatter> but at least its an alternative
<coz_> well yeah but i think the best solution is to have an option for slab on/off
<darkmatter> indeed
<coz_> that way for those that need slab it is there
<darkmatter> yup
<darkmatter> I use it not because its ideal... I just use it because its clean... the one thing that cascading menus arent... and if I ever do need the actual menu (doubtful) all I need is alt+f1
<coz_> darkmatter,  that seems to be the best way to go about this but you know how gnome is
<darkmatter> yeah
<darkmatter> coz_, I'm actually designing a pretty cool interface "suite" to plugin to gnome as it were... and whats really cool is it has no menus ;)
<coz_> darkmatter, ooo sounds interesting
<coz_> brb I am doing the restoroom dance here :0
<darkmatter> lol
<troy_s> greets coz_ -- good to see your idling around
<coz_> troy_s, hey guy
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-01-28
<kwwii> moin moin
 * kwwii is back from London
<kwwii> now that nokia has bought Trolltech/Qt I wonder how long it will take to make a kde based mobile internet device (or cell phone) and how many extra buttons it will have :p
<_MMA_> hehe
<nothlit> lol, they just want the toolkit i presume
<vaughn> Ok, I've been following the mailing list for almost a year and I really want to get involved with the art team, how best do I do that?
<Tm_T> kwwii: soon, though no extra buttons, they are all "plasmoids" now ;)
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-01-29
<DylanMcCall> So, has anyone noticed my mailing list posting about the little / early slideshow project? :)
<_MMA_> DylanMcCall: I did see it mentioned. Its a little late now. 'bout 10hrs ago is a good time. :P
<Toma-> _MMA_â why arent you in ubuntustudio?
<_MMA_> Toma-: Because Im *supposed* to be with my family now. ;) Just taking a peak in. :P
<Toma-> ahh ok :)
<Toma-> ive got some issues installign with the 64bit build
<Toma-> but i guess it can wait
<_MMA_> PM
<DylanMcCall> Hm... wacky idea here: What would be an image to represent the whole development community's signature?
<DylanMcCall> (other than a big blob of ink)
<DylanMcCall> and rats, I logged in with the wrong nickname. Back in a moment
<Picklesworth> That's better
<Picklesworth> (Only took me 4 hours to realize)
<Picklesworth> anyhow, I'm trying to add a personal flair to the welcome page in this slideshow thingy. A signature seems worthy of attempting, but any one signature would look way too pointy
<Picklesworth> Oooh, I just noticed that the GNOME developer kit (bleeding edge Foresight Linux) has a really nice theme that does away with dotted lines around focused items
<Picklesworth> instead, it has a shiny blue box
<Picklesworth> More visible - thus more powerful as a usability feature - and less ugly, all in one stroke!
<andreasn> Picklesworth: it's Clearlooks
<andreasn> standard gnome clearlooks, just trunk version I think
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-01-30
<troy_s> kwwii: Start a damn bzr repo with some targets on those monochrome panel icons.  I could pinch those off very quickly.
<troy_s> kwwii: In addition to this, it is a wonderful chance for people to get their feet wet with bzr and Launchpad.  Those who will want to contribute will need to learn bzr and LP and, quite frankly, that seems like the perfect project to learn.  Agree?
<kwwii> troy_s: good idea, done ;-)
<kwwii> https://launchpad.net/human-panel-icons/
<Toma-> that update orange is quite offensive on the eyes
<kwwii> yeah, that one needs a lot of love
<kwwii> everyone should feel free to work on those icons
<kwwii> send any ideas to me or ping me in irc
<Toma-> dont you think heavily stylised icons will clash with the systray?
<kwwii> I think that we should create as many icons as possible which show up in the system tray
<kwwii> and really we only have to worry about the default setup plus the most important/common apps
<lapo> ciao there
<emgent> hello people :)
<emgent> someone have time to make an icons to new launchpad tm ?
<emgent> s/to/for/
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-01-31
<kwwii> night all
<spdaniel91> Hello guys
<spdaniel91> i'm a wallpaper designer, and I would like to submit some wallpapers for ubuntu, where can I join?
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-02-01
<_MMA_> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Hardy/Alternate/UbuntuExplosion
<Toma-> i like it... if it was developed any further tho it might look a little like the new mac background
<_MMA_> Thats _really_ slick. 1st "+1" email I ever sent. (usually those are just noise)
<FrankQ_> kind of wild, but nicely executed
<FrankQ_> it could be higher res
<_MMA_> 2560x1600!?
<_MMA_> :)
<_MMA_> Pretty big if you ask me.
<FrankQ_> well, yeah, saw that... but when zoomed in it's just not smooth. even on 1280x1024 there's blurry stuff.
<FrankQ_> (in places where it shouldn't be)
<Toma-> yeh the "Take it or leave it" thing doesnt sound too fun
<_MMA_> FrankQ_: Blur could be on purpose. Dont know. Artifacting is what I would worry about.
<FrankQ_> I'm not good at distuinguishing both ;-)
<FrankQ_> Distinguishing*
<FrankQ_> I can only say that my first reaction isn't "woaaah this is smoooth"
<_MMA_> Kinda a "grainy" look. Though that might be of no help either.
<_MMA_> Toma-: "Take it or leave it" is how you get when people endlessly comment but actually "do" nothing.
<Toma-> I thought it was an implication of the license
<_MMA_> "I" is the operative word. :) Most nitpick regardless.
<Toma-> i already said I like it.
 * _MMA_ is also just tired a being so cautious of "feelings". 
<_MMA_> Sure, but you said ""Take it or leave it" thing doesnt sound too fun"
<Toma-> yeh
<_MMA_> Like that was offputting to you.
<FrankQ_> I didn't mean to be very nitpicky.
<Toma-> it sounds like the author wont encourage any development
<FrankQ_> I do like the idea and the look.
<_MMA_> FrankQ_: Im just talking generally.
<_MMA_> Toma-: There's an accompanying email that is looking for input.
<Toma-> Ahh ok then.
<_MMA_> But knowing the author it not gonna be up for wild changes.
<_MMA_> A bazillion posts saying do this or that. If it fits in with where Hardy or +1 will go, he'll be down for changes. Otherwise, it is what it is.
<_MMA_> Thats how I take it.
<_MMA_> Like I said in my email reply, It looks awesome on my 24" LCD.
<Toma-> I didnt know there was so much meaning behind 'Take it or leave it'...
<_MMA_> Well I had the email as well. ;)
<_MMA_> As is, I suspect most will take some offense from it. Oh well. :P
<Toma-> Not offended :) Just causes one of my eyebrows to raise unexpectedly
<_MMA_> Sure. I believe Who also did Xubuntu art work.
<Toma-> oh cool
<FrankQ_> is it an issue that the resolution appears to be widescreen?
<_MMA_> No. Its 16:10.
<_MMA_> not 4:3
<FrankQ_> huh, that's odd.
<_MMA_> No. pretty common now. Set you "Style" to "Zoom".
<_MMA_> Will crop the sides.
<_MMA_> But retain the aspect.
<FrankQ_> and uncenter the center ^_^
<FrankQ_> but ok, then it's not unovercomable
<_MMA_> Its an abstract anyway. Not like there's a logo or something there. ;)
<FrankQ_> My n00bscore just got raised by one.
<_MMA_> Nobody's keeping score. :P
<FrankQ_> i'm glad. sometimes.
<_MMA_> Wallpaper sites where 16:10 is common: http://interfacelift.com/wallpaper/index.php?sort=date http://www.mandolux.com
<_MMA_> There's more but its a LONG list.
 * _MMA_ heads off to bed.
<FrankQ_> Thanks, and night
<luisbg> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Hardy/Alternate/Fela_Kuti
<luisbg> very nice idea
<luisbg> but...
<luisbg> wouldn't it be awesome to have a fela kuti saxo sample as the login sound?
<luisbg> with some of his afrobeat in the background
<luisbg> to keep the african theme
<_MMA_> hahahahaha http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/6892/screenshotig3.png :P
<luisbg> why can something so ugly look good?
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-02-02
<troy_s> <FrankQ_> it could be higher res
<troy_s> <_MMA_> 2560x1600!?
<troy_s> Great candidate for SVG really.
<troy_s> <Toma-> it sounds like the author wont encourage any development
<troy_s> The author is Who -- and he has been around for a while.  He would encourage development.  The 'take it or leave it' is probably a "this is my take, don't bother commenting because it is pointless"
<Toma-> rightio
<troy_s> Toma-: Not in a negative way.
<Toma-> yeh ive been following the list since
<troy_s> Toma-: More in a 'I have read far too many pointless ramblings about colour crap and other crap' kind of way (much like a few others out there including myself)
<FrankQ_> I quite like the idea of SVG wallpapers
<kwwii> happy birthday to me, happy birthday to me....all pending artwork issues might not get answered until (late) Sunday
<kwwii> oh, and regarding the wave files...that was my fault as coz said that he was having a hard time posting I allowed his emails through without checking the size of the attachment (duh). There is a reasonable limit set, I simply should have been paying more attention :-)
<kwwii> if I'd only have known he had resent the email 4 times
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-02-03
<Tabe_> hi, i've been looking around /alternate
<Tabe_> and i saw a lot of nice ideas (and also installed the gelatin theme
<Tabe_> how can i help?
<_MMA_> Tabe_: Best to jump on the mailing list. And its rather slow in here on the weekends.
<troy_s> _MMA_: Lol.
<Tabe_> mailing list? i don't want to decide wich of my mail accounts is the best one to do that :P
<Tabe_> i should see pr0n instead of ubuntu desktop screenshots
<Tabe_> bye
<Toma-> ...
<Toma-> screenshots are better than pr0n
<coz_> good day all
<coz_> apparenlty sending attachments to the mailing list is no acceptable?
<coz_> I certainly wasnt trying to cause any problems when I sent the sound files  ..I suppose it would be better to have a central place to upload such files for submission
<coz_> online
<coz_> would anyone like to talk with me about the attachemtns I sent that apparenlty has cause some irritations ?
<coz_> you are welcome to pm me if you like
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-01-26
<dilomo> hi all
<dilomo> anmyone here using New Wave + Eclipse?
<dilomo> anyone*
<primes2h> kwwii: Hello, did you see messages I left here?
<kwwii> primes2h: nope
<kwwii> but the bug is fixed, it seems
<primes2h> kwwii: I just would like to know what happens now. Will stockmail... be removed? or what?
<kwwii> https://launchpad.net/~pitti/human-icon-theme/sponsor-172353
<kwwii> explains everything
<kwwii> (the changelog)
<SiDi> huh ?
 * _MMA_ waves
<SiDi> well,  hello :$
 * thorwil waves, too
<primes2h> kwwii: I was talking about bug #319991
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 319991 in icon-naming-utils "Strange behaviour of some emblem icons." [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/319991
 * _MMA_ has new art uploaded to Studio-Jaunty. Wonders if the disks will work soon.
<_MMA_> (also wonders if his ISP will kill him for downloading (legally) 450GB worth of hi-def NIN video in a month)
<thorwil> _MMA_: oh, wow. how many hours is that?
<primes2h> pitti: Thanks for accepting my patch.
<primes2h> ops, wrong channel.
<_MMA_> thorwil: Most likely a week or so. There are 3 torrents. 3 different shows. Im working on the 1st now. (got about a day left)
<_MMA_> thorwil: Or 2 depending on ho many seeds drop off.
<_MMA_> thorwil: http://forum.nin.com/bb/read.php?52,378166
<SiDi> 405 GB... crazy
<SiDi> With my  bandwidth, in direct download, it'd take me a good year \o/
<_MMA_> It's best that "normal" people wait for the edits to come out. There are a couple of people working on 'em. http://thisoneisonus.org
<thorwil> _MMA_ isn't normal :)
<_MMA_> I got a 500GB drive just to store 'em. :P
<_MMA_> Gonna try to edit with Blender or Cinelerra.
 * thorwil recently bought 2 1GB drives
<_MMA_> Nice. :)
<_MMA_> I was nuts and paid $380 when they 1st hit. I won't do that again.
<SiDi> ouch
<_MMA_> kwwii: So what's gonna happen with Murrine? Are you gonna push to update it to latest SVN? I'd like to chat about it if you are.
 * _MMA_ goes to make breakfast/get the kids off to school.
<SiDi> _MMA_: i didn't begin my own school day yet (which is pretty cool knowing its almost 3PM :D)
<kwwii> _MMA_: yeah, I was thinking about it
<kwwii> _MMA_: hit me up when you get back
<_MMA_> kwwii: Does current murrine-SVN break old themes again?
<Cimi_> _MMA_, I introduced a dummy control, it just prints that you should update the theme, but they will look correctly
<Cimi_> the only thing needed is GtkScale::trough-side-details = 1
<_MMA_> Cimi_: Ahh.... Killer. kwwii: I don't have any issue then.
<SiDi> See you peeps
<Cimi_> if you don't add it the GtkScale won't have the colored fill
<_MMA_> Cimi_: Gotcha. It won't affect anything if I add it now will it?
<Cimi_> _MMA_, it will affect old themes
<Cimi_> ops
<Cimi_> themes on the old engine
<_MMA_> Ok. So Ill add it but comment it out for now.
<Cimi_> that modification is required because now the applications could specify if they want the fill or not
<Cimi_> this is particulari useful on the new audio mixing application
<Cimi_> and, for example, when why have a left/right pan volume control, where a blue fill on the left part of the scale is quite idiot
<Cimi_> now the applications may specify "do not draw the fill on the pan volume control"
<_MMA_> Gotcha
<_MMA_> Cimi_:  GtkScale::trough-side-details = 1 is correct? Spelling on "trough" looks odd.
<primes2h> kwwii: I was talking about bug #319991
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 319991 in icon-naming-utils "Strange behaviour of some emblem icons." [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/319991
<kwwii> primes2h: yeah, not much I can do about that one I guess
<primes2h> I just would like to know if it will be removed (in your opinion)
<_MMA_> Cimi_:  Nevermind. It's actually in my theme already, just set to: 0. So leave it there for now but set to 1 later?
<primes2h> the stockmail-.... emblem of course
<kwwii> right
<kwwii> that name is included as a legacy naming from older gnome stuff
<kwwii> the _m makes the m in mail a hotkey
<kwwii> oh, the jockey icons are now removed from emblems
<primes2h> so that _m made the link error?
<primes2h> I imagine.
<Cimi_> _MMA_, set it to 1 when you update the engine
<_MMA_> Cimi_: Ok.
<kwwii> primes2h: yes
<primes2h> kwwii: Just another thing: why there are gnome emblem in nautilus even with human theme? there is "Downloads", Erase" etc...
<primes2h> moreover there is an inconsistency in the "erase" one.
<kwwii> primes2h: no idea, really
<kwwii> primes2h: the inconsistancy is because they come from different themes
<primes2h> It's present in Edit->Backgrouns end emblems-> Emblems, but not in Properties->Emblems in right-click on a folder
<kwwii> primes2h: my guess is that that place is the only one in which you can add emblems
<primes2h> and there is a blank place between the "marketing" emblem and "Erase" emblem.
 * _MMA_ guess is that it hasn't been reported, and if it has, hasn't been a priority.
<kwwii> the entire idea of emblems is out-dated anyway
<kwwii> what we need is tags
<kwwii> the system should take care of emblems (like the dekstop one for instance)
 * _MMA_ hasn't personally seen the need or value in emblems/tags.
<primes2h> will they be replaced soon? by tags I mean
<kwwii> I really have no idea about that as it is an upstream issue
<kwwii> I would think not
<primes2h> _MMA_: you are right, but at least it should be consistent in the system itself ;-)
<primes2h> kwwii: the emblems filtering seen in nautilus is in the nautilus package itself?
<primes2h> Or where?
<primes2h> I could have a look
<kwwii> primes2h: I would guess, but I am not sure
<primes2h> who could know this?
<primes2h> in your opinion...
<kwwii> primes2h: someone in #ubuntu-devel
<savvas> _MMA_: It could be useful mostly for pictures, tagging them by date, occasion, friend circle, group, etc. This is used in f-spot photo manager
<primes2h> kwwii: you told me jockey emblems will be removed. is there a fix for jaunty already?
<primes2h> savvas: You're right
<_MMA_> savvas: That's pretty much what I do.
<_MMA_> But, not to a large extent.Maybe I just don't have that large a photo collection (few thousand) but F-Sport sorts things by date. My mem is good enough I know where to look for a pic. Only think I ever make a effort to keep tagged is Music. Even though, it's not for search purposes.
<_MMA_> I've just never been a big searcher. :) I don't use Tracker or Beagle. Oh well. :P
<kwwii> primes2h: yes, pitti moved them in the package from emblems into the actions dir
<primes2h> kwwii: OK, thank you very much.
<savvas> primes2h: you might want to update the bug: https://bugs.launchpad.net/human-icon-theme/+bug/319991
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 319991 in icon-naming-utils "Strange behaviour of some emblem icons." [Undecided,New]
<savvas> or martin pitt will do it probably :P
<chaslinux> Hmmn the background without the prehistoric bunny is probably better. I suppose I should recreate the bunny in Inkscape. Thought it would look cool if it was vicious, but it doesn't. I do like the BG colours though: http://www.charlesmccolm.com/sites/default/files/images/JauntyBackground-alpha.preview.jpg
<_MMA_> I wouldn't use the bg as it will band on LCDs.
<chaslinux> Because of the gradient?
<chaslinux> My LCD went poof six months ago ;-(
<chaslinux> It seems fine on my notebook, why would it band?
<_MMA_> Exactly.
<kwwii> in any case, to check out banding you should look at several monitors, trust me on thisone
<chaslinux> Thanks guys... would it band on a smaller LCD or just large ones? I have access to smaller ones at work, but nothing larger than 17"?
<chaslinux> Maybe I'll just stick to Inkscape stuff ... ;-)
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-01-27
<Cimi_> dashua,
<Cimi_>         GtkScale       ::slider-width         = 19
<Cimi_>         GtkScale       ::slider-length        = 12
<Cimi_>         GtkScale       ::trough-side-details  = 1
<Cimi_> try these
<dashua> Will do.  Thx.
<dashua> Cimi_: http://picpaste.com/Screenshot-16.png
<dashua> I do want to change those scrollbars.
<_MMA_> dashua: You gotta see what you can do about your formatting on your ML posts. You post shows as a signature and the post you wanna quote isn't quoted. Screenshot: http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/4628/screenshotjv9.png
<_MMA_> dashua: And it's usually a good idea to pull out the quoted footer when replying.
<dashua> _MMA_: Ah damn.  Ok.  I'm using yahoo trying to bottom post.  Not working so well.
<dashua> Sorry about that.
<_MMA_> np. Just letting ya know. :)
<dashua> Thx :)
<Cimi_> dashua, change the thickness of your scale sliders to 3
<Cimi_> x/y thickness
<dashua> K
<Cimi_> those sliders are fat and without the shadow
<_MMA_> Cimi_: Man you keep hours like you live on the west coast of the States.
<_MMA_> Isn't it like 1 or 2am for you?
<dashua> Cimi_: http://picpaste.com/pics/Screenshot-17.1233017872.png
<Cimi_> 2 am
<dashua> Nice
<dashua> Thx
<dashua> I'm going to work on porting Dust when I have some extra time.
<_MMA_> dashua: *GOD* I wish you could adjust the size of that GNOME-Do dock. That and I wish it was drawn on the GPU. Its slow even on my dual-core box.
<dashua> Ha
<dashua> It's actually ridiculously fast.  I think this is default.  I deleted my gconf settings
<_MMA_> huh? Maybe I need to blow out my settings then.
<_MMA_> The effect lags bad.
<dashua> What video card do you have?
<_MMA_> nVidia
<dashua> The old nvidia drivers (178.82) were very slow.  180.22 is like a dream with Docky.
<dashua> I had the same issue.
<dashua> Updated drivers and it was fast.
<_MMA_> Ha! It actually sped up after i cleared out my settings. (left there from old installs)
<dashua> Just as fast as the OSX dock.
<dashua> Parabolic zoom anyways.  It gets a little slow over time, but nothing catastrophic.
<_MMA_> But, there's a cease & desist letter waiting for sure.
<Cimi_> _MMA_, that's true
<dashua> Probably
<Cimi_> 178 are very slow
<Cimi_> here docky is quite usable on the netbook
<Cimi_> intel atom intel 950
<dashua> _MMA_: Any updated to Breathe coming soon?
<_MMA_> dashua: I got sucked into Ubuntu Studio updates/testing this weekend so I should get Breathe updated this week.
<dashua> Ah ok. Nice.
<andreasn> ah, good to know I'm not the only one having issues with the animations in GNOME Do
<andreasn> I thought I had broken something
<_MMA_> I think I'm just runnin' the strait 177 repo drivers actually.
<dashua> I stopped using Docky because of the performance on 178, 180 is very fast.  World of difference.
<_MMA_> Since the kernel updates have been dropping off maybe I'll grab the latest ones from nVidia.
<dashua> I'm on Jaunty.  I have to use IgnoreABI option, but it worked fine when I was on Intrepid.
<_MMA_> dashua: Oh wow. You're more brave than I am. :P
<dashua> Yeah, it's actually working with minimal breakage so far.
<_MMA_> I'll probably put it on the laptop after next alpha.
<dashua> I haven't ventured to Ext4 yet.
<dashua> Although, I know I will be tempted =/
<_MMA_> I have in VM. No trouble so far.
<dashua> Ah nice.  I heard it was working fairly well.
<dashua> Cimi_: http://picpaste.com/Screenshot-18.png
<dashua> Sliders look nice. Thx
 * Cimi_ moved to fedora but still likes to contribute on ubuntu-art LOL
<dashua> Linus apparently moved to GNOME, so I guess anything is possible =/
<_MMA_> meh. Ubuntu has a better repo structure and package manager IMO.
<_MMA_> dashua: hahaha *seriously* :P
<Cimi_> apt is the fastest
<Cimi_> but I prefer the way rpm are build from .specs and the integration of yum with packagekit
<dashua> Cimi_: You stopped using Arch?
<Cimi_> also I dislike the way debian/ubuntu maintainers are used to patch every single piece of software
<Cimi_> dashua, yeah on august
<dashua> Wow.
<Cimi_> and yes, I dislike brown :P
<_MMA_> Cimi_: Not true. Only stuff with *ubuntu on the packages.
<Cimi_> _MMA_, on ubuntu you get different gnome interfaces
<Cimi_> patches almost everywhere
<Cimi_> and old software
<_MMA_> And .rpms are dead tech. The same guy that made .rpm told me so. :)
 * dashua is off to work
<dashua> Later
<_MMA_> later
<Cimi_> _MMA_, could be, as I said the way apt manages its database is incredible (positively)
<Cimi_> just think about complicated features like "autoremove"
<Cimi_> which, if you think deeply, are really complicated to implement if you don't have a solid database
<_MMA_> Cimi_: So yeah alot of GNOME might be touched (and Im not sure why) but its hard to touch "every single piece of software" in 22,000 some odd packages. :P
 * Cimi_ hides
<Cimi_> :P
<Cimi_> I had that feeling
<_MMA_> Cimi_: Foresight uses Conary. Which was created to address the shortcomings of RPM.
<Cimi_> when using ubuntu I felt like they like to patch everything
<_MMA_> Foresight is nice but its repo is anemic.
<Cimi_> yum has a lot of useful features
<Cimi_> for example
<Cimi_> I needed an updated kernel for my machine, so I was thinking about the development branch (rawhide) which is similar to jaunty. Though I didn't like the idea of updating the whole system
<Cimi_> what I did was: yum install --enablerepo=rawhide kernel
<Cimi_> and it took the updated kernel, 2.6.29.rc2-git1
<Cimi_> that is really hard with apt
<_MMA_> Yep.
<savvas> what's hard?
<savvas> ah, you mean to install a package by enabling a specific repository once?
<Cimi_> anyway the real reason for the change is that fedora works out of the box with my samsung nc10, while ubuntu requires to compile an updated alsa, installing a wireless module through the svn, editing the xorg.conf for the touchpad, enable some fixes for the scrolling, add some scripts for the fn+keys... and so on
<Cimi_> mainly because ubuntu has older packages
<_MMA_> Cimi_: Sure. I'd *try* Jaunty. Might be better there.
<_MMA_> I think Ill switch the laptop tomorrow.
<Cimi_> _MMA_, is my english improved over these months or is it still something odd to yours?
<Cimi_> that's was OT of course :)
<_MMA_> Cimi_: It is better. You're not using words like "ugly" all the time anymore. :P
<Cimi_> that's because you're not showing me ugly themes anymore :P
<savvas> hehe
<savvas> you can still use "ew!" :P
<_MMA_> Neat: http://arstechnica.com/open-source/news/2009/01/testing-kde-42-release-candidate-on-windows.ars
<Cimi_> impressive
<_MMA_> Though I think Amarok2 (and Amarok in general) is a terrible mess. IMO there's nothing elegant about it.
<_MMA_> </rant>
<_MMA_> :P
 * _MMA_ looks around for other KDE/QT music aps.
<_MMA_> *apps
<Cimi_> _MMA_, no
<Cimi_> it's just ugly
<Cimi_> :-P
<_MMA_> ;)
<ziroday> Hi, is there a murrine svn ppa anywhere?
<zniavre> ziroday: http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php/Murrine+Gtk2+Engine+DEB?content=96422
<zniavre> i do not hink there is a ppa's repos
<ziroday> zniavre: sweet thanks
<zniavre> think*
<ziroday> that'll do :)
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-01-28
<darkmatter> oh dear... someone has blatently ripped gnome 3.0's default look... so much for the NDA... http://jordanfc.deviantart.com/art/rubber-control-part-110772563
<knome> zomg, comic sans
<darkmatter> knome: comic sans is the least of the worries ;)
 * _MMA_ waves.
<knome> darkmatter, is it really? :P
<darkmatter> indeed
<darkmatter> oh look! stupid chain mail! *deletes*
<_MMA_> thorwil: What the hell was that? "Bagus,"
<thorwil> _MMA_: no idea
<_MMA_> Weird
<_MMA_> kwwii: You get a Firefox update today?
<_MMA_> kwwii: nm
<savvas> _MMA_: most unlikely, no update for it: https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/firefox-3.0
<_MMA_> savvas: Yeah. I just hit something odd here where my homepage won't stick. No big deal. I needed to blow the settings out anyway. My .mozilla folder is like 3 years old and Im sure pretty chaotic.
<savvas> I had problems with the 2->3 transition, I exported my passwords and bookmarks and was good to go!
<savvas> for reference, password exporter: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/2848
<_MMA_> Ahh... I grabbed the bookmarks but forgot passwords. Ill get them to. (still have the old folder)
<_MMA_> savvas:Hmm... Where do you manage the passwords? import/export? Or is it just a folder to drop in place?
<savvas> you export them in a file
<savvas> xml I think
<savvas> once you install the plugin and restart firefox, you head to Edit > preferences > Security > Import/Export passwords
<savvas> It does backups on demand, not on a daily basis unfortunately :)
<_MMA_> Oh. There's a plugin for it. I thought it was built in. Got a name for the plugin?
<savvas> 17:49:40 < savvas> for reference, password exporter: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/2848
<savvas> :P
<_MMA_> gah
<_MMA_> :P
<savvas> hands quicker than the eye :)
<_MMA_> savvas: Man that's handy. Thanx. Would be a nice default feature IMO.
<savvas> I know, but how does someone recommend these?
<_MMA_> For default? I'm unsure. I have seen  a couple of features pulled in that were extensions before.
<_MMA_> Im sure the Mozilla folks monitor the popularity of them.
<_MMA_> savvas: You know Moonlight came out right? Works great here. http://www.go-mono.com/moonlight
<savvas> oh an xpi!
<savvas> _MMA_: do you have a site to test it? :P
<_MMA_> After you install it, go here and you'll be prompted for codec installation. http://silverlight.net/learn/learnvideo.aspx?video=57010
<savvas> is it different than flash?
<_MMA_> As much as I hate to say it, kinda. :)
<_MMA_> Depends on what you're looking for.
<savvas> quality :P
<_MMA_> Generally, I've seen betterimage quality with less CPU usage with the vids I've looked at.
<savvas> that's nice
<_MMA_> But, without knowing the bitrate of the feeds it's kinda hard to really measure.
<_MMA_> I know the US inauguration looked *great*.
<_MMA_> (though not as good as my hi-def tv) :P
<kwwii> _MMA_: yeah, I actually booted into Vista just to watch the inauguration
<_MMA_> kwwii: Apparently the Moonlight guys worked all night to get this ready just for the inauguration. I have to say, worked like a charm.
<savvas> looks cool
<kwwii> _MMA_: hehe, it is good to have friends :p
<_MMA_> Damn. I gotta find someone who can make a Breathe theme for Firefox/Thunderbird.
<savvas> heh this is fun: http://silverlight.net/samples/1.0/Grand-Piano/default.html - use keys: C, B, V :PP
<savvas> (wrong button pressed :p)
<savvas> _MMA_: all my add-ons are here: http://imagebin.org/36983
 * _MMA_ looks cautiously
<savvas> it's an image :P
<_MMA_> Oh I know. I just expected a crap-tastic amount of extentions. Like most people I know have. :P
<savvas> nah, I can work with adblock plus, gmail manager, secure login and password exporter
<_MMA_> Jesus. 3 years worth of cached imaged makes me look like a big perve. (I'm just a little perve)
 * _MMA_ sets cache to 5MB. :P
<savvas> well.. besides bookmarks and passwords there's nothing else to keep in my opinion, you can safely remove the whole .mozilla folder (once you back up your extensions that is)
<_MMA_> Yeah. I'm pretty much there. And it's actually a little snappier.
<thorwil> midget pr0n fits into 5mb easily
<_MMA_> hahahahhaha
<knome> i'm wondering if this channel gets logged
<_MMA_> yes.
<thorwil> so what? boobs!
<_MMA_> :P
<knome> good for thorwil
<savvas> thorwil: I have another idea for the ubuntu free culture showcase - How about collecting images out of all ubuntu members/launchpad users and making a huuuuuge image out of them of ubuntu logo? :)
<thorwil> savvas: if you think you can pull that off in the little remaining time, i won't stop you ;)
 * kwwii made a collage like that for canonical not too long ago
<savvas> aww, and I thought I was original ;p
<kwwii> :p
<savvas> I just got the idea, there's no way I can pull that of
<knome> a script? :P
<_MMA_> Man I forgot the app that does this. Tiles smaller images into 1 big one.
<savvas> there is the python API of launchpad, it supports getting users images.. but what about their license? :\
 * _MMA_ searches bookmarks again.
<savvas> I'll be blamed for spamming :P
<_MMA_> *Just* as I think the kernel has settled down and I can use manually installed nVidia drivers there's a new kernel for Intrepid. :P
 * thorwil now and then receives a request for a design, but the only person who wanted to pay didn't follow up so far
<_MMA_> :(
<thorwil> _MMA_: on a positive note, the ardour guys are implementing a connection matrix pretty close to my mockups. i love it when that happens :)
<_MMA_> :)
<_MMA_> I still gotta finish my conversion of the ardour gtkrc to a "normal" one.
<thorwil> _MMA_: you mean one that picks up as much as possible from the desktop theme?
<_MMA_> I mean making a gtkrc that looks like Ardour.
<thorwil> oh, other direction
<_MMA_> Yep
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-01-29
<SealV> tips on scaling down an icon?
<_MMA_> SealV: Can you give more info?
<_MMA_> What are you trying to do?
<SealV> well I have an icon I have been working on at 512*512 in inkscape. I am having difficulty scaling this sucker down to say 22*22
<_MMA_> SealV: You draw for the intended size.
<SealV> so no shortcuts? I cant just scale down and simplify?
<_MMA_> For Breathe, we're drawing @ 128px for scaliable. Using that for 48px but everything else is redrawn.
<_MMA_> And sure, you can take the large size, scale down and remove/change details.
<_MMA_> But simply using 512px and using it across the board is gonna result in blurry icons in smaller sizes.
<SealV> especially with strokes. they look fugly.
<SealV> oh and shadows
<SealV> is it just me or is inkscape devel faster at rendering things?
<_MMA_> SealV: On screen or to bitmap?
<SealV> on screen to bitmap seems to be about the same
<_MMA_> Things using blur have a lower on-screen quality level now. I generally don't link it because it's not representative of final output. But if you get it where you like it, then lower the on-screen setting I can see it being useful.
<_MMA_> SealV: The folks in #inkscape are nice. Hang out in there. You'll learn new things for sure.
<SiDi> ello
<SiDi> _MMA_, are you around ?
<SiDi> Hi
<_MMA_> yo
<SiDi> Hey _MMA_ you're around :)
<SiDi> i'd something to ask you about this 405GB file you're downloading :P
 * _MMA_ was sleeping when you came around before.
<SiDi> well yeh i came pretty early ^^
<_MMA_> Well that's the 3 torrents. I'm currently getting the 1st. 120GB.
<SiDi> i'd like to know, do you have any idea who's hosting the tracker on which the torrent info is ?
<_MMA_> Its a NIN tracker.
<SiDi> I'm currently writing a (little) report on P2P protocols, esp. bittorrent, and i thought it'd be great to have stats of number of seeds on such a file
<_MMA_> Tracker: http://tracker.nin.com 39 seeds 448 peers.
<SiDi> Thanks
<SiDi> i'mma make a script to check it for me then
<SiDi> Do you mind pmming me the direct URL of the torrent info ?
<_MMA_> It redirects as well. You can't view it from the web. http://forum.nin.com/bb/read.php?52,378166
<SiDi> Hm i wonder if they keep torrent stats
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-01-30
<dashua> http://picpaste.com/pics/Screenshot-1_2.1233297545.png
<dashua> Still hacking, but this looks pretty damn nice.
<dashua> I need some help from kido if he is ever about.
<tretle> what is the name of the icon for websites in the navbars of web browsers again
<savvas> tretle: favico ?
<savvas> <link rel="shortcut icon" href="/favicon.ico">
<dashua> Does anyone how to readable text on the menubar for Dust?  I'm trying some different options and have most issues worked out.
<dashua> http://picpaste.com/Screenshot-The_Widget_Factory.png
<_MMA_> dashua: For studio, to get light text there I do:
<_MMA_> style "murrine-menubar"
<_MMA_> {
<_MMA_> 	bg[NORMAL]= shade (0.75, @bg_color)
<_MMA_> }
<_MMA_> So its a shade of bg  normal.
<dashua> _MMA_: Ok thx, let me try that.
<_MMA_> dashua: You could reference anything there though. You could shade your text color one way or another.
<dashua> This is more difficult than I thought with hybrid themes.
<rsc-> are you modifying Dust?
<rsc-> shouldn't Dust have white-on-dark menus by default?
<_MMA_> "I'm trying some different options" :)
<kwwii> I was running Dust on my laptop this week at the london office...several people asked me about it - it is quite popular it seems :)
<_MMA_> kwwii: Too bad they aren't the people makin' the decisions. (I'm assuming) :P
<kwwii> _MMA_: actually, they are ;)
<kwwii> but we aren't making any major changes for JAunty
<kwwii> the big plans are for +1, as the team is new and all
<_MMA_> I see.
<andreasn> kwwii, are you going to be at the London office sometime during February?
<andreasn> I'm planning on visiting, but haven't decided any dates yet
<kwwii> andreasn: I am in the london office every second week
<kwwii> andreasn: so I will be back in london the week after next
<andreasn> hm, what date is that?
<kwwii> I returned today, leave for berlin tomorrow, staying a full week, and then leave for london sometime around the 9th
<kwwii> I'll also be in london on the week of the 23rd
<andreasn> and staying there till 13th or so?
<kwwii> andreasn: yepp
<kwwii> andreasn: I usually only stay 3-4 days
<kwwii> which ones are up to me though
<andreasn> a bit close to Fosdem, but maybe it could work
<kwwii> yeah, I am skipping Fosdem (again) because of this
<andreasn> if not, I'll look into the 23ish
<kwwii> andreasn: cool, let me know when you are in town! I'll take you up to the office, it has quite a spectacular view of london
<andreasn> sweet!
<andreasn> thanks in advance!
<andreasn> did the power manager icon issue sort itself out btw?
<kwwii> andreasn: it looks like we are going to patch gpm to use different percentages *and* fix the human icons
<kwwii> currently it seems to change at 90,70,50,30, and 20
<andreasn> I'm currently redoing the smaller sizes for upstream (to be easier to read)
<andreasn> isn't it 020, 040, 060, 080 and 100?
<kwwii> erm, make that 90,70,50,30,10
<kwwii> those are the names of the icons...but I sat and watched at which percentages they change
<kwwii> I was thinking of changing it to 80,60,40,30,20
<kwwii> naturally, there is 100 as well :p
<kwwii> and a pop-up that appears when it gets close to 10 it seems
<kwwii> althought that pop-up might be time based
<kwwii> ideally, it would all be time based
<andreasn> http://svn.gnome.org/viewvc/gnome-power-manager/trunk/data/icons/16x16/status/
<andreasn> hm, I wonder if upstream and human have different levels all together
<kwwii> it seems the icons are named the same...and I don't think we have patched it
<kwwii> but they might be different
<kwwii> the biggest problem was the human icons, which showed orange for 40, red for 20 and simply grey at 0
<andreasn> crap, where in /usr/share/icons/human are the gpm icons, now again?
<kwwii> 40 is shown between 50-30, 20 between 30-10 and 0 from 10-0
<kwwii> andreasn: 22x22/apps
<kwwii> andreasn: there is a lot of interest from canonical to work on this with upstream if possible though (they keep asking me)
<andreasn> ah, yes, the names are the same
<kwwii> andreasn: another issue they want to work on is the network manager icons
<andreasn> oh, cool
<kwwii> apparently Dell was unhappy with the current ones
<andreasn> for nm or gpm?
<kwwii> although, again, the human icons are different from the gnome versions
<kwwii> for nm
<kwwii> they've had quite a few customers complaining that they cannot find the network icon (or how to configure the network)
<kwwii> I think that the fucntionality of the nm-applet needs to be changed as well though
<andreasn> yeah, probably
<andreasn> anyway, better fix dinner now, need to go over to a friend for his birthday party in a hour or two
<andreasn> and I'll let you know when I've booked the flight tickets and stuff
<andreasn> take care, later!
 * kwwii is off to dinner, packing for berlin, etc
<savvas> do you know a free alternative to calibri font?
<_MMA_> savvas: "free" in what sense?
<savvas> _MMA_: free to redistribute in pdfs etc
<savvas> as far as I've read, calibri is licensed only to windows users
<savvas> :P
<_MMA_> savvas: I'm not finding much of anything. If you convert the font to vector will that work for you?
<savvas> I am allowed to do that?
<savvas> if so, that'd be great :P
 * _MMA_ shrugs.
<_MMA_> I know in Inkscale I convert the fonts to vector then output to PDF.
<thorwil> savvas: in the US, there's no copyright on letter shapes
<_MMA_> You can't edit later but it still scales well.
<thorwil> savvas: but there could be in other jurisdictions
<_MMA_> *Inkscape
<savvas> hmm
<thorwil> savvas: in short, it's not clear at all and if in doubt, don't
<savvas> you might be right
<savvas> I'll just use Dejavu and MgOpen fonts :P
<thorwil> savvas: you could also become your own type designer. in only a few years, you might come up with something that can almost, but not really, be compared with calibri
<dashua> _MMA_: Would you mind testing a theme for me or anyone who prefers darker themes?
<_MMA_> dashua: Can't atm. I got alot going on with Studio testing and the family.
<dashua> Ah ok, np
<dashua> Would you mind if I send it to the ml for some feedback?
<thorwil> dashua: i don't think anyone would mind
<thorwil> strange that you ask, actually ;)
<dashua> Ok great :)
<dashua> I don't want to bog the ml down.
<dashua> Your mail to 'ubuntu-art' Is being held until the list moderator can review it for approval.
<thorwil> dashua: you are subscribed to the list?
<dashua> Yes
<dashua> I've never seen that before.
<thorwil> so that must be the start of moderation/whitelisting
<dashua> Yeah
<thorwil> dashua: or did you attach something?
<_MMA_> kwwii? ^^^
<dashua> I attached the theme and a few screenshots
<dashua> Maybe they were too large.
<_MMA_> dashua: Which address?
<dashua> Should I cancel and change the screenshots to thumbs?
<_MMA_> I personally only use links.
<dashua> ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com
<_MMA_> No. Yours
<dashua> jws141@yahoo.com
<SiDi> hi
<_MMA_> dashua: Ok. I put it through.
<dashua> Ah thx
<_MMA_> dashua: But how big was it? 3MB? I would host pics somewhere else from now on.
<dashua> Yeah, I'll throw them on Flickr from now on
<dashua> brb, new kernel
<kwwii> _MMA_: erm, they told me they would wait until I discussed this with them
<kwwii> let me ask
<kwwii> hehe, no..it is the size of the attachments :p
<kwwii> _MMA_: you can go to the interface and let that mail through
<kwwii> erm, I should have read all the way back :p
<kwwii> duh
<_MMA_> :P
<_MMA_> dashua: The list has a limit of 1000 KB. So watch the attachment sizes.
<dashua> _MMA_: Alright, np.
<darkmatter> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3BNb4_Z4fY <-- epic
<tretle> hi, could someone point me in the right direction to adding speech bubbles to blog posts similar to how planet gnome does it?
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-01-31
<tretle> the css would be great
<tretle> does the maintainer of planet.ubuntu.com hang around here?
<_MMA_> tretle: At a better time for the EU, find the guy named "Ng" and ask him who's the maintainer.
<_MMA_> NG is a Ubuntu sysadnim and dev or Terminator.
<_MMA_> *Ng
<tretle> cool
<tretle> lol, yeah its 2.35am here in ireland :D
<_MMA_> ;)
<_MMA_> tretle: Though, he's a bit of a night owl so you might get lucky. PM him.
<dilomo> hi guys. how are you?
<dilomo> thorwil: any news
<dilomo> I've been in a session and I had to study a lot so have I missed something interesting?
<thorwil> dilomo: hi. not really. i'm working on the submission for the free culture showcase this weekend
<thorwil> dilomo: soon we will have 2 mailing lists if you havn't read that, yet
<dilomo> cool
<dilomo> I read that but could not quite undertend who will be able to post to the one with the current name
<thorwil> dilomo: everyone on the whitelist will be able to post directly, others will be moderated
<thorwil> dilomo: i think you have a ticket to the whitelist ;)
<dilomo> :) thanks
<dilomo> thorwil: do you know css?
<thorwil> dilomo: i used to know it very well. not in training anymore
<dilomo> is it easy to learn?
<dilomo> can you reccomend me abook or smth?
<dilomo> because I want to make a firefox theme but it is mostly css
<thorwil> sadly the reference i used is only available in german and french
<dilomo> ok I will find something on ggl
<thorwil> dilomo: found a recommendation for http://htmldog.com/guides/cssbeginner/
<savvas> dilomo: I'd recommend html dog too
<dilomo> thorwil: thanks for the link
<thorwil> np
<savvas> the best practice guide xhtml & css book
<savvas> at least that's how it's titled :P
<dilomo> :)
<dilomo> pcidropp is super slow
<dilomo> I wanted to show you smth but still uploading
<thorwil> it's too popular, it seems :)
<dilomo> http://www.freeimagehosting.net/image.php?2fe78a7f81.png
<dilomo> here's another likn
<dilomo> thorwil: what do you think of the trash popup?
<thorwil> dilomo: looks alright to me
<thorwil> the color makes for a good balance with the bars above it
<thorwil> dilomo: though i'd wish for a bit of an edge, a line between sidebar and ain area
<thorwil> main area, even
<dilomo> I wish too but it seems imposible to theme in anutilus
<dilomo> nautilus*
<thorwil> the 3 dots for the resize handle are not quite fortunate
<dilomo> I agree
<dilomo> thow just have been told that it is not possible:
<dilomo> (13,39,19) benzea: well, the question is whether nautilus calls into the theme to draw the background (if nothing has been specified by the user)
<dilomo> (13,39,30) benzea: I am not sure if it does, but think that it is likely it does not
<dilomo> (13,39,54) benzea: and should my feeling be right here, you cannot do anything
<dilomo> however what's up with the background
<dilomo> for jaunty?
<thorwil> dilomo: there's a chance we will see a briefing for the final wallpaper
<thorwil> meanwhile lets wait what is chosen for the next alpha, i'd say
<thorwil> food, bbl
<dilomo> ok :)
<tretle> Ng you there?
<_MMA_> tretle: U gave you the channels to look in yesterday. He's never in here.
<tretle> ah
<_MMA_> s/U/I
<tretle> _MMA_ just looked over the logs and you never gave me the channels he could be in
<_MMA_> tretle:  /whois Ng
<_MMA_> Come on man. ;)
<tretle> its not listing any channels
<_MMA_> Yes it does.
<SiDi> Hi
<SiDi> Anyone using elegant brit theme here ?
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-02-01
<BedPost> hey, anyone here?
<SiDi> Hello peeps
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-02-01
<kwwii> good morning
<iainfarrell> evenin' ;)
<kwwii> hey bug
<kwwii> erm
<kwwii> bud
<kwwii> you are not that bad :P
<thorwil> kwwii: glad you still exist. and you just caused the first words of iainfarrell i ever saw here
<iainfarrell> I'm a long time lurker, first time caller
<thorwil> now that the channel is action-packed, i have to leave for dinner!
<kwwii> thorwil: lol, nice
<kwwii> thorwil: trust me, I am alive and well...just been travelling ;)
<kwwii> thorwil: hey, I might have someone who needs a logo for their company, can I point them to you?
<thorwil> kwwii: oh yes, you can! :)
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-02-02
<yemanja> hello all, i'm a web and ui designer on open-source.
<yemanja> I want to help ubuntu project :)
<yemanja> (and i'm bad in writing english)
<Equiet> yemanja: Hi. Do you have any showcase of your work?
<yemanja> yes, i have not yet a professionnal webiste but here is my little playground http://lestitescasesdessinesdelili.blogspot.com/ and http://www.kameleoon.com/ a recent work.
<Equiet> And, as others would say, look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork for more info. Canonical has its own designer team, we are creating themes and wallpapers.
<yemanja> ok :) thanks for the link
<Equiet> Well, that's not so bad.
<yemanja> thanks
<Equiet> I guess http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_d6ohzpwd2R0/S12G8brRo0I/AAAAAAAAAv4/NSJZtSu1Ehw/s1600-h/dev02.png is a hand painting, right?
<yemanja> yes
<Equiet> I haven't done any yet. :(
<Equiet> What's your age if I could ask?
<yemanja> 31 years
<Equiet> Is this your work http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_d6ohzpwd2R0/SqAgGh-PwuI/AAAAAAAAAjI/5Yx0wrlEGqs/S1600-R/menina.png ?
<yemanja> yes it's me ^^
<Equiet> Very nice.
<yemanja> all done with pen and inkscape
<yemanja> thanks
<yemanja> leggs are too longer :/
<Equiet> Wait for thorwil or vish for more info, I'm a newbie here.
<yemanja> ok
<yemanja> all artist on ubuntu are good as jimmac ?
<Equiet> Can't say, I have not seen much work.
<yemanja> ok
<vish> yemanja: hi..
<yemanja> hi vish
<vish> yemanja: have you checked the artwork wiki page? usually the Ubuntu artwork is done in-house by Canonical folks
<vish> yemanja: we can do the community artwork , the wiki lists the on-going projects where you can help out
<yemanja> yes i have read some pages. Oh all are employed by canonical, none was for the fun ?
<vish> no.. :) Canonical has a design team
<yemanja> ah ok
<vish> yemanja: you can also join the artwork mailing list , people discuss the artwork and sometimes the Canonical design team asks for suggestion via the mailing list
<yemanja> ok, why not
<yemanja> i supposed i'm not welcom on your channel work vish ?
<vish> yemanja: i didnt understand ^  ?
<yemanja> all people here are working for canonical ?
<vish> nooo
<yemanja> ok :)
<vish> yemanja: hmm , oddly in this >  menina.png , i think the torso is too long ;)
<vish> it could be a tad shorter
<yemanja> ok ^^
<vish> hehe ..
 * vish just noticed Equiet's "And, as others would say, look at"
<thorwil> yemanja: hi! if you would consider work outside of ubuntu, i know that exaile.org  would like to have new artwork
<thorwil> yemanja: http://www.photofiltre-lx.org/ are looking for an icon designer
<thorwil> http://clam-project.org/ would like to have a new logo
<yemanja> ok great link
<yemanja> thanks
<thorwil> yemanja: np. let me know if you do work for any of these projects, please
<yemanja> ok :)
<dashua> kwwii, http://ubuntu-art.org/content/show.php/Human-Lucid?content=119546 . If you're interested for testing.  Getting some great feedback.
<vish>  hei dashua did you send the merge request for the firefox entry bug?
<vish> dashua: btw , we have started a ppa for humanity ;) [in case you didnt notice]
<kwwii> dashua: yeah, saw that (I have it installed) a while ago...I think it would be a great theme for the community-themes package
<dashua> vish, I thought I did a while back.  I filed that a  while ago.
<dashua> I wasn't aware of the PPA for Humanity.  I usually just pull from trunk.
<dashua> vish, lp:~elementaryart/elementaryicons/humanity-testing-ppa
<dashua> That the right one?
<vish> dashua: https://launchpad.net/~elementaryart/+archive/ppa
<vish> kwwii: too^
<dashua> vish, Cool thx.
<vish> np..
<vish> dashua: damn you , actually i was thinking of copying the metacity idea ;p
<dashua> Pretty sexxy, eh?
<dashua> I am really digging it.
<vish> yeah , the idea is a neat one
<dashua> Blends perfectly with Humanity.
<dashua> If you make those sexxy icons, I can work on another metacity with a bit of top gradient.
<dashua> This one really isn't too bad.
<vish> dashua: hmm , i didnt understand? dont you already have those icons?
<dashua> Yeah, but I think they could use some mac_v <3
<dashua> :)
<vish> :D
<kwwii> vish: hey, cool
<zacbarton> im wondering if anyone know why this happens when making a metacity theme
<zacbarton> http://www.zacbarton.com/metacity_vs_compiz.png
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-02-03
<tim_> hey
<tim_> im interested in working with themes and background and all
<tim_> however, im not sure where to start
<tim_> is there anything i can do to help, with my limited skills
<troy_s> tim_: Help - no.
<troy_s> tim_: Imagine if this were a kernel developer forum, you basically said "I can't code but I'd like to try and get things committed to the kernel."
<troy_s> tim_: So it's silly.
<troy_s> tim_: _But_
<troy_s> tim_: If you are interested in learning more about art / design / etc., you might be able to find some good suggestions / starting points.
<troy_s> tim_: Make sense?
<zacbarton> hi there
<zacbarton> im hoping someone can help me fix an issue im having using a metacity theme with compiz
<zacbarton> see here - http://www.zacbarton.com/metacity_vs_compiz.png
<vish> zacbarton: seems like a bug.. are you doing the theme or just curious about the bug?
<zacbarton> im doing a theme
<zacbarton> shame
<vish> zacbarton: are you noticing the same with other themes as well?
<zacbarton> hmm good question ill just chk
<zacbarton> yea it looks like it
<zacbarton> other themes show the same issue
<vish> zacbarton: i just checked in virtual box too , it seems that metacity doesnt allow maximizing those windows
<zacbarton> yea
<zacbarton> but compiz does. and in a metacity theme you can style the close differently for those cases
<vish> zacbarton: hmm? style it different?
<zacbarton> would it be a metacity bug or the gnome-window-decorator?
<zniavre_> gconf-editor >/apps/metacity/general/button_layout > did you check the layout too ?
<zacbarton> yea like if the window is a utility window (like gimp). so in my case id use a different close button rather then using the one i use when its min/max/close (as my button are joined)
<vish> ah , cool
<vish> zacbarton: you did the homosapien theme? or modifying it?
<zacbarton> i didnt create it but i did take the mockup and turned it into a theme
<vish> neat
<zacbarton> @znavre: the button layout is the same between compiz and metacity
<zacbarton> yea its turning out quite good. im in contact with the author so we will see what comes next :-)
<zacbarton> i added a (hopefully) more human color gardient to the latest version which i think looks good
 * vish wonders how appropriate - , + is for a minimize  , maximize  , it seems more like remove or add :(
<thorwil> everyone put a mark on the calender, kwwii blogged: http://kwwii.blogspot.com/2010/02/platform-sprint-in-portland.html
<thorwil> i already considered to see his blog posts as events marking the end/start of an era
<vish> thorwil: hmm? didnt understand... previous era?
<thorwil> vish: important events are used to divide history. for example, the rediscovery of america is sometimes considered to be the end of the middle ages
<vish> thorwil: lol! i know "era" meaning.. i was asking what was the beginning/end of the last era?
<vish> what was the last event
<vish> thorwil:  blogged about breathe and we shut down work within a month ;p
<vish> kwwii blogged*
<thorwil> vish: heh, so maybe it's good he doesn't blog often
<vish> lol ;)
<darkmatter> vish: down/up arrowheads are better for min/max imo
<vish> darkmatter: agreed , they could be used in those button styles
<darkmatter> holy... just updated my alpha of opera 10.5 to the latest build. I have never seen a browser this responsive.
<thorwil> i hate when the browser runs away from the pointer or starts to giggle if i click it
<zniavre_> darkmatter,  you should try firefox 3.6 , is at least faster than chrome
<darkmatter> I use 3.6. I also play around with the latest opera. I refuse to touch chrome. it's like the rest of googles googlerific offerings. utter crap
<vish> damn! kwwii takes neat fotos
<zniavre_> darkmatter,  :o)
 * darkmatter gets extremely bored and rewrites windowmaker using gtk+
<darkmatter> neat: http://stashbox.org/705472/Bildschirmfoto.png
<kwwii> morning all
<kwwii> in case anyone is wondering, I am on the west coast of america this week
<troy_s> kwwii: Where abouts?
<troy_s> kwwii: You coming up here?
<kwwii> troy_s: portland this week
<troy_s> kwwii: You should make the trek up to Vancouver.
<troy_s> kwwii: You are very close.
<troy_s> kwwii: You over on this continent with family?
<kwwii> nope, no family...with the canonical family :P
<kwwii> how far is it?
<troy_s> kwwii: not that far.
<troy_s> kwwii: Sorry, no page... missed your type.
<troy_s> kwwii: Let me see what GMaps pulls up... I seem to remember doing Portland in about 4ish hours.
<troy_s> kwwii: Looks like GMaps says 505kms.
<kwwii> troy_s: oops, sorry...I guess there is a train which runs up
<troy_s> kwwii: Yes... there is much rail.
<troy_s> kwwii: Even more up here than where you used to live in the US I'd think.
<troy_s> kwwii: You would at least get to say you made it to Whistler.
<kwwii> hehe
<kwwii> troy_s: whistler?
<troy_s> kwwii: Winter Olympics site.
<kwwii> troy_s: ahhhh, now I get it
<troy_s> kwwii: 2010.
<troy_s> kwwii: So it's hopping.
<kwwii> troy_s: yeah, I saw something about that on tv
<troy_s> kwwii: Lol. Odd.
<troy_s> kwwii: Who is all with you in Portland?
<kwwii> troy_s: yeah, not sure why I didn't know about that...been watching all the winter sports in DE-land
<kwwii> troy_s: platform team, server team, mobile team, design team, dx team
<kwwii> about 102 people
<troy_s> kwwii: Wow.
<kwwii> troy_s: yeah, pretty big this time around
<troy_s> kwwii: What's on the table?
<troy_s> kwwii: Anything interesting?
<kwwii> troy_s: it's the normal half-way through the cycle meeting to fix things and get back on track, basically
<kwwii> troy_s: essentially time for us all to get together and deal with stuff face to face
<troy_s> kwwii: What have you been working on?
<kwwii> troy_s: mainly having meetings trying to explain tech stuff to designers
<kwwii> :p
<kwwii> troy_s: a bit of UNR and such as well
<kwwii> brb, gotta reboot
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-02-04
<vish> zniavre: yay , rounded tooltips landed in lucid :D
<ryanprior> I remember when rounded windows landed.
<ryanprior> It made me happy disproportionately to the magnitude of the change.
<zniavre> :o)
<zniavre> good morning
<ryanprior> Hi zniavre.
 * vish hehe , sets insanely ridiculous roundedness and gets a weird sideeffect, creates funky shapes ;D
<zniavre> vish,  nautilus is rgba able ?
<vish> zniavre: not sure.. i have compiz doing the rgba work.. let me check
<zniavre> ok
<vish> also , it seems that the rgba stuff was pulled out and deferred for Lucid+1
<zniavre> if yes i will dist-upgrade
<zniavre> ho
<vish> zniavre: which parts of nautilus would become transparent?
<zniavre> everithing execpt textzone
<vish> hmm... i dont think it does , but a few other apps like sys monitor use rgba
<zniavre> http://gnome-look.org/content/preview.php?preview=1&id=85094&file1=85094-1.jpg&file2=85094-2.jpg&file3=&name=Nautilus+RGBA+support
<vish> hmm , nope no rgba for nautilus
<zniavre_> vish,  ok thank you
<zniavre_> http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2010/02/ubuntu-lucid-aero-style-gtk-posponed-to.html > vish you were right ... sadly
<thorwil> seems kinda ... typical
<zniavre_> im trying lucid
<zniavre_> there is no rgba improvement at all
<zniavre_> FLOZz,  hello
<FLOZz> hello zniavre_ :)
<FLOZz> how are you ?
<zniavre_> fine thank you
<zniavre_> did you try CT on lucid?
<troy_s> #dev.openoffice.org
 * zniavre_ gives one /j to troy_s 
<troy_s> lol
<troy_s> thanks z
<zniavre_> :o)
<FLOZz> zniavre_: no... But I will try...
<zniavre_> FLOZz,  you got ppa no ?is there one for lucid ?
<FLOZz> zniavre_: no, i have to re-build the package for lucid
<zniavre_> a ok
<zniavre_> did you plan to make it soon ?
<FLOZz> I'll probably do it in two weeks
<zniavre_> ok
<zniavre_> thank you / merci
<FLOZz> :)
<FLOZz> ++
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-02-05
<zniavre> i got strange border with wallpaper all around the desktop
<zniavre> oops sorry i wanted to talk inti #ubuntu+1
<zniavre> it's a bug but it fits so well my own theme   :o)
<vish> lololol
<vish> thorwil: "hot air" , ;p
<thorwil> vish: what have i done!?
<vish> thorwil: inspired someone to work on your mock ;p
<vish> mockery*
<thorwil> might have been a burlesque travesty of a send-up, but mockery?
<vish> potato ... potato ;p
<thorwil> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0p2Xiufy0l4
<zniavre> wich murrine-engine is supposed to be in lucid?
<dashua> zniavre, v0.91.0 hopefully :)
<zniavre> soon ?
<dashua> I dunno.  A DX Team has packaged.
<dashua> it*
<zniavre> ok
<dashua> Have you ported your theme over yet?
<zniavre> yes i did
<zniavre> but in lucid it 's "stable" version
<zniavre> so it does not work
<dashua> Yeah.  I am surprised it has not landed yet.
<dashua> Bug fixes and many nice options.
<zniavre> i wax exited by rgba stuff but sadly it's for lucid+1
<zniavre> maybe ...
<dashua> We can actually make a theme now that does not look like something circa Windows '95.
<zniavre> wax/was *
<dashua> Yeah, I was disappointed to hear that, but it seems they are shooting for stability.
<dashua> I could not get it to it work.
<zniavre> i think rgba is stable enough but need a huge "balcklist" for many apps
<zniavre> blacklist*
<dashua> Yes, I got tired of patching all of my apps.
<zniavre> :o)
<dashua> I'm happy with GNOME Terminal and System Monitor RGBA :)
<zniavre> globalmenu and gnomenu got rgba patch (i asked for it)
<zniavre> globalmenu is cool with rounded /transluscent menus
<dashua> Oh nice.
<dashua> Finally running Lucid.  Very late in the game for me this time around.
<dashua> Seems ok.
<zniavre> http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/8430/capturebr.png
<dashua> That is nice.
<zniavre> xchat no (it was on karmic ) globalmenu yes
<zniavre> it's funny cause in karmic i got more application rgba able (with modules from gnome-look)
<dashua> That's ironic.
<zniavre> with lucid just few of them
<zniavre> nicotine globalmenu emesene + sysmon
<zniavre> do you like the new layout of nautilus >extra pane + new notebooks (tabs)
<zniavre> ?
<dashua> I saw th extra pane.  I did not really take notice to the new tabs.
<dashua> What's new with the tabs? At the bottom?
<zniavre> yes at the bottom
<dashua> Feels somewhat strange.
<dashua> Plymouth and nVidia do not play well together, heh?
<dashua> I had to remove it.
<zniavre> it works here
<zniavre> the strange blue and white progress bar ?
<zniavre> im using 173.14.xx drivers
<dashua> I had little white squares at GDM that increased while I typed and could not access VT.
<zniavre> you should try ctrl alt f1 > /etc/init.d/gdm stop > and then startx
<zniavre> before typing anything on gdm
<dashua> Yeah, I could not access a VT.  Something was really borked.
<zniavre> wich drivers?
<dashua> 195.36.03
<darkmatter> VT's rarely work as intended since X is a pile of crap
<zniavre> :o(
<dashua> Let me reboot again.
<dashua> No luck.  Blue bar > GDM > Lock up
<dashua> zniavre, We could make a nice GDM theme now with the new murrine.
<dashua> Just thought of it with the border_shades and colors.
<dashua> Ditch industrial
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-02-06
<zniavre> if the new engine will come ...
<zniavre> hav a good night
<zniavre> dashua, murrine from git updated this morning
<darkmatter> ok... I am utterly confused at OBS packaging. some daft fool put gnustep in the education repo/metapackage. lol
<zniavre> what is the command line to get the gnome properties appearence for gdm please i lost my bash-history ?
<zniavre> please*
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-02-07
<darkmatter> good morning coz_
<coz_> darkmatter,  morning :)   how are things?
<darkmatter> ok. just wokw up. was going to some theme/icon work for my mockups (just the elements I'll need for the designs basically)
<darkmatter> you?
<coz_> darkmatter,  oh  woke up about at about 5:30 am being 6:30 am now... not wanting to go out because of the snow :)
<coz_> had to cancel a few clients because of it
<coz_> so now I am playin with openbravo    POS
<darkmatter> fun. I was going to go for a morning walk. but the temperature dropped by another 25 C while I was sleeping
<coz_> darkmatter,  well here we nad 28" of snow :(
<coz_> we have had
<darkmatter> we had a lot, but thankfully not that much
<coz_> darkmatter,  took all day yesterday to dig out the car
<darkmatter> :/
<coz_> darkmatter, its finally out but the roads have about 6" of packed snow
<coz_> a little slippy  but  we had to get to the stores
<darkmatter> yeah. best stay in and be lazy
<coz_> darkmatter,  oh I am good at that lol
<darkmatter> lol
<coz_> darkmatter,  i would even say that I am highly skilled in that area
<darkmatter> hehe
<vish> hmm , has Cimi dropped the option "gradients" from murrine?
<vish> Bug #518325
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 518325 in human-theme "Murrine configuration option "gradients" is no longer supported and will be ignored" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/518325
<vish> i cant find any mention in the changelogs :s
<darkmatter> there is no change like that. I pull git on a fairly regular basis. must be uby specific or something
<vish> darkmatter: this is the only thing in ubuntu changelog >   * Upload a git snapshot to lucid
<vish>   * Drop the git changes which are in the new version
<vish> git changelog  has no reference either
<darkmatter> strange
<vish> darkmatter: do you have launchpad account? could you comment that you dont get the error with git package?
 * vish can confirm the error occurs in all murrine themes but gradients work
<darkmatter> vish: I can't remember, lol. it's been years since I touched ubuntu. all I can say is I build my own packages of murrine on suse and have no such warnings
<vish> hehe ;)
<vish> darkmatter: do your themes use 		gradients           = TRUE
<vish> in the style options?
<vish> i mean engine* options
<darkmatter> vish: depends on the theme element, but yeah. most of them have gradient = TRUE in at least a few places
<vish> hmm..
<vish> zniavre: / dashua: you know anything about this^ ?
<zniavre> is'nt gradient_shades   now ?
<zniavre> i do not get this error with my own theme but with human yes
<vish> zniavre: apart from that there was the option  gradients           = TRUE
<vish> zniavre: i'm getting it for human/dust/dust sand and almost all themes
<zniavre> i guess just delete the line or #it
<vish> yeah , theme works without that line , but was weird since darkmatter mentions no such error with git version
<darkmatter> gradient_shades just determines relief and whether or not a gradient is concave, convex, or glassy, etc. I have both enabled in my themes, so dunno *shrug*
<zniavre> maybe gradient true is include with gradient shade > if gradient shade is present gradient true is inside   ( sorry i really need to improve my technic english)
<zniavre> in my theme gradient true is not present
<darkmatter> hmmm... who knows. *shrugs yet again* any and all code in foss repeatedly goes 'up shit creek without a paddle' as they say, and 99.9% of the time never finds its way back. why should murrine be any different :P
<coz_> :)
<darkmatter> single estate darjeeling! yum!
<dashua> vish, Yes. gradients is deprecated.  It's gradient_shades now.
<dashua> Many changes.  Human is going to need a revamp.
<vish> dashua: but gradient_shades already existed for a long time... why is there no mention of this in the changelog? [most importantly why isnt darkmatter getting this error when using git version?]  are you also using git version?
<dashua> git Yes
<vish> dashua: hmm , you get the error in the git version too?
<dashua> One sec
<dashua> /usr/share/themes/Human/gtk-2.0/gtkrc:85: Murrine configuration option "gradients" is no longer supported and will be ignored.
<dashua> Yep
<vish> argh :/
<dashua> Try my Human-Lucid.  Very similar to Human just with the added features.
<vish> dashua: yeah , already did ;) , i saw you dont use that :)
<dashua> I still use gradients.
<dashua> Just not coded "gradients"
<vish> maybe cimi felt there was no need to turn it "on" if there was already a mention of the gradient_shades
<dashua> vish, I think that was the case
<dashua> I'm just excited to see it was pushed.  Now Albatross will work again in Xubuntu :)
<vish> dashua: i thought albatross was dropped in xubuntu?
<dashua> Don't think so.  Maybe it was.
<dashua> vish, Damn it was. =/
<darkmatter> technically I don't like murrine. I only use it because it lets me avoid having a bazillion engines installed
<vish> yeah , murrine isnt ideal in a few places
<vish> is there a way to use pixmap engine for toolbars and not have the ugly appearance of the disabled icons?
<darkmatter> vish: there's an alpha patch for the pixmap engine somewhere. I've been meaning to rebuild it but haven't gotten around to it yet
<vish> darkmatter: who is the author of the pixmap engine?
<darkmatter> not sure offhand
<vish> thats the most irritating aspect of pixmap for me :/
<darkmatter> I'd really like to see a modernized version of the pixbuf engine. I mean, it's maintained, but it's freaking old code. hence the need for 11,000 workarounds per theme
<dashua> vish, Looks they dropped it from xubuntu-artwork and added it to murrine-themes.
 * darkmatter punches his hiatus hernia in the hiatus hernia
<vish> dashua: yeah , i saw the mention of the  drop from xubuntu-artwork
<vish> darkmatter: _cough_ while you are punching it ;p
<darkmatter> vish: well, I'm aiming for the stomach but the diaphragm keeps getting in the way :p
<darkmatter> vish: word to the wise. heavy lifting = bad ;p
<dashua> vish, Are you using Rhythmbox?
<vish> ;)
<vish> dashua: yup
<dashua> Cover art not working in Lucid?
 * vish checks
<vish> dashua: wfm
<dashua> Hrm
<dashua> Strange
<zniavre> what is cover art? just the cover into rhythmbox?
<zniavre> http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/3852/captureea.png   >it works here  (updated 3 hours ago)
#ubuntu-artwork 2011-01-31
<Acid190> Anyone interested in being the artist for a new distro?
<coz_> hey all
<thorwil> hi coz_
<coz_> thorwil,  hey guy
<doctormo> hey coz_
<coz_> doctormo,  hey guy
<doctormo> coz_: My name is Martin, but you may call me 'My Lordship'
<coz_> doctormo,  ah  ok    that's cool... and very modest of you :)
<doctormo> coz_: I try to be as humble as I can for the little people.
<coz_> doctormo,  ah yes... I completely understand... I want to be emperor of the US  but no one understands
<coz_> :)
<coz_> so guys... have all of the wallpapers for Ubuntu been chosen already?
<doctormo> coz_: I don't think so.
<coz_> doctormo,  ah ok
<darkmatter> bah. slingshot wont build on maverick
 * darkmatter pats coz_ good afternoon
<darkmatter> <--- just woke up. lol
<coz_> darkmatter,  hey guy...sorry for delay...was busy in inkscape
<darkmatter> np. I was busy yawning
<darkmatter> coz_: I'm going to "attempt" to do some coding in a bit. late riser today, so that results in an inherent lazy.... errr... I mean sluggishness ;p
<coz_> :)
<coz_> can anyone see this page?   http://www.brandonberinger.com/
<darkmatter> lol. I'll need to update php to see it ;D
<coz_> darkmatter,  yeah that's what is says here  but installed php5
<coz_> I wanted to see more of this guys work
<darkmatter> coz_: and thus the winky grin thingy :P
<coz_> :)
<coz_> I am trying to relaxe..we had a fire in the house today...  someone threw a lit cigarette into a paper waiste basket
<darkmatter> o;o
<coz_> whole house filled with smoke... 5 police cars... two fire engines
<darkmatter> yikes
<coz_>  and all of the super  nice  super cool
<coz_> all lf them rather
<coz_> of course I had a calm head during the whole thing...now find myself a bit   worked up  now that I am alone
<coz_> darkmatter,  the house has 11 foot ceilings and I am over 6 ft tall and couldnt breathe  the smoke was thick from the ceiling down to my waiste
<coz_> but in the room where the fire started  ,, the old dell computer survived ...go figure :)
<coz_> keyboard melted though :)
<darkmatter> coz_: do a sudo update-alternatives --configure php   and see what it's set to. if you have more than one version it may be using the older one. it'll list the options (if any) with a * by the default
<darkmatter> coz_: yikes
<coz_> darkmatter,  ok let me try
<darkmatter> and slow response to the php thingy. because I saw "house caught on fire" :P
<coz_> :)
<coz_> darkmatter,  mm "unkown optio9ns  " --configure"
<coz_> darkmatter,  although   sudo update-alternatives --list php  gives   /usr/bin/php5
<darkmatter> coz_: oops. pre coffee typo
<darkmatter> config
<coz_> :)
<darkmatter> is the spelling
<coz_> here is only one alternative in link group php: /usr/bin/php5
<coz_> darkmatter,  must be on his end
<darkmatter> coz_: yeah. if yoy had more han one version it would list them and let you change the one to use. so his site is silly ;)
<coz_> right :)
<coz_> ok I need to eat something... be back in a bit
<darkmatter> coz_: I'm revisiting some of my older design and interaction stuff. although not much has changed in the overall concept, I found something I removed I'm considering adding back
<coz_> cool
#ubuntu-artwork 2011-02-01
<coz_> good day all
<Anpu> Hi, can anyone point me where / who to ask about implementation of banner slider on ubuntu.com site?
<coz_> Anpu,   mm  maybe ask evilvish  or thorwil
<Anpu> coz_: thank you :)
<coz_> Anpu,   they are both logged in ,,however ,  I dont know their timezones  and not sure if they are at their systems at the moment
<Anpu> Ok, np. I left a message on pvt, and will be patient :)
<coz_> oh cool :)
<thorwil> Anpu: maybe try in #ubuntu-website
<thorwil> if no one else, newz2000 should be able to tell you more
<Anpu> ah, thanks a lot, will try
#ubuntu-artwork 2011-02-02
<coz_> hey all
<coz_> good day all
#ubuntu-artwork 2011-02-03
<BlueBomber7> Good evening ;)
#ubuntu-artwork 2011-02-04
<doctormo> kwwii: Hey there, could I get you to close the deviantArt group http://ubuntu-free-culture.deviantart.com/
<zniavre> good morning
<zniavre> this theme is it too dark please ?  >   http://i.imgur.com/uIhh5.jpg
<thorwil> what's the size of the launcher icons in unity?
<darkmatter> 48x48 iirc. at leat they looklike it. so plus tiles I's say 64 pixels of nibbled realestate
<darkmatter> I'd*
#ubuntu-artwork 2011-02-05
<coz_> good day
<angusfretwell> Hello, I'm looking to volunteer my time as a graphic and UI designer. Am I in the right place? :S
<coz_> angusfretwell,   well not sure actually... you may want to speak with thorwil   or kwwii
<angusfretwell> OK thanks :)
<thorwil> angusfretwell: hi! while wanting to volunteer is great and generous, as things are, you pretty much have to take an active approach
<angusfretwell> OK, so just jump in and do some stuff, you mean?
<thorwil> angusfretwell: if wallpapers don't happen to be of central interest for you, ubuntu-artwork is not quite the right place (i wish it was)
<angusfretwell> Ah, OK
<angusfretwell> Is there a better place?
<thorwil> angusfretwell: almost. even better if there's an actual need you can fill
<thorwil> angusfretwell: depends on what you want to do
<thorwil> there are quite a number of options for what approach you could try
<angusfretwell> what i'm mainly good at is user interface design
<angusfretwell> whether it be for the web or otherwise
<thorwil> angusfretwell: UX for ubuntu/unity is hard to get in, because a lot is happening in teams of full time employees. meanwhile, the ayatana list as point of entry for the community is just very noisy
<angusfretwell> thorwil: OK, I'll take a look ath that
<thorwil> angusfretwell: you could perhaps look for an application you care for, where you see room for improvement
<thorwil> angusfretwell: and then get into contact with the developers to get an idea if they would agree and for what would be feasible
<thorwil> to then do mockups, eventually
<angusfretwell> thorwil: OK, I'll try that, too.
<thorwil> angusfretwell: do you have an online portfolio?
<angusfretwell> thorwil: No, not at the moment
<thorwil> angusfretwell: the people in #gnome-design on irc.gnome.org _might_ have one or the other idea on what else  you could work on. though i think asking during weekdays might lead to better results
<angusfretwell> OK thanks for all your help :)
<angusfretwell> Later.
<coz_> hey guys
<BlueBomber7> Hi :)
<darkmatter> 'ello coz_
<coz_> darkmatter,  hey guy :)
<doctormo> ello
<coz_> doctormo,  hey guy
<darkmatter> hi doctormo
<doctormo> coz_: I'm not a guy, I'm a bloke.
<doctormo> Unless you think I should be shoved onto a bonfire and burned.
<coz_> doctormo,   whoa  you must be a foeigner :)
<coz_> foreigner
<coz_> damn spelling
<coz_> damn fingers
<doctormo> coz_: I must. British.
<coz_> :)
<coz_> doctormo,  and what does "guy" mean in   the british isles  linguistics?
<doctormo> And as we all know, the internet was invented by Al Gore and therefor is American soil ;-)
<coz_> lol
<doctormo> guy is a name, i.e. Guy Falks, remember, remember, the 5th of Novemeber...
<doctormo> We go around as kids with a straw man asking for 'penny for the guy' before putting him on the bonfire on the 5th.
<coz_> doctormo,  mm  yes it is also a name here in the US  but for us it also means  " man"  "dude" person of the male gender
<doctormo> coz_: You mean it means 'bloke'
<doctormo> 'dude' is also American slang and 'man' is a Saxon word for 'human being'
<doctormo> You probably mean wereman as aposed to wifman.
<coz_> doctormo,  yeah essentially it does mean bloke :)
<doctormo> coz_: You know, talking of wif, I'd love to see a wifwolf movie. I think it would make for an excellent twist to the standard plot.
 * darkmatter gets a wif of doctormo and defends himself with febreeze :P
<doctormo> darkmatter: How are you?
<thorwil> aha! http://old.theshtick.org/language/woman.html
<darkmatter> dunno. alive I suppose *checks for pulse* yup. alive ;)
<coz_> i have gotten many hits on my flickr thingy ,, I have no idea why I didnt do this sooner
<coz_> although I would prefer money to hits  but hey :)
<darkmatter> :)
<coz_> now i need to find a flickr like place for music
<doctormo> coz_: there are a ton of them, and some are even not shit.
<doctormo> Unlike flickr, which is evil incarnate.
<coz_> doctormo,  oh??  I didnt realize
<coz_> doctormo,  why is flicker evil and ubuntu uses it for sumission s o0
<doctormo> coz_: Because we have nothing better, even though me and thorwil have issues with it (i.e. I think it's evil)
<doctormo> etc
<coz_> ah ok
<coz_> doctormo,  so there are sites for music also?
<doctormo> oh yes
<doctormo> open source ones too
<coz_> oh!!
<doctormo> look up cchost, it was original meant for music sites anyway
<coz_> looking how
<coz_> now
#ubuntu-artwork 2011-02-06
<coz_> hey all
<troy_s> Dust kick.
<doctormo> hey troy_s
<troy_s> doctormo: Greets friend. How are things?
<doctormo> troy_s: good, http://doctormo.org/2011/02/06/congratulations-debian/
#ubuntu-artwork 2012-01-30
<Swictures> Hey
<Swictures> Anyone active....
#ubuntu-artwork 2012-02-03
<xanax`> hello
<iainfarrell> hello!
#ubuntu-artwork 2012-02-04
<coz_> wow, I never thought it would dwindle to this few :(
#ubuntu-artwork 2012-02-05
<Karvis> Hey
<Karvis> Can I ask couple questions about Ubuntu?
<hyperair> you go to #ubuntu for that
#ubuntu-artwork 2013-01-28
<HoneyDaPooh> Hello there
#ubuntu-artwork 2013-01-30
<sealview> Hi guys
