#xubuntu-devel 2010-11-22
<charlie-tca> Good morning
<cody-somerville> Morning
<cody-somerville> Sorry I wasn't able to make the meeting.
 * cody-somerville hurt his back last week and was stuck in bed.
<charlie-tca> no problem
<charlie-tca> Sorry to hear about your back. Are you somewhat better now?
<cody-somerville> feeling 95% better, yup
<charlie-tca> Still, got to take care of yourself. 
#xubuntu-devel 2010-11-23
<charlie-tca> Good morning
<davmor2> charlie-tca: morning
<charlie-tca> davmor2: How goes it today?
<davmor2> charlie-tca: mostly up I got unity working thanks to njpatel
<charlie-tca> Great! He is good with it.
<davmor2> charlie-tca: it turned out that compiz got screwed in the upgrade
<davmor2> charlie-tca: so half the plugins weren't enabled
<charlie-tca> ah-ha. That will do it
<charlie-tca> I managed to get caught by bug 678196
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 678196 in apt (Ubuntu) "Ubuntu extras repository prevents other updates" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/678196
<persia> charlie-tca, Did you manage to select which installation targets you planned to release for natty?
<charlie-tca> persia, I don't understand
<charlie-tca> You mean, the default apps?
<persia> charlie-tca, So, there are Xubuntu Desktop images that will be published.  I know you want i386 and powerpc images.  I suspect you want amd64 images.  I'm not sure if you want amd64+mac images (if they exist), because I don't know if you have testers for them.  I'm also not sure if you have testers for armel+imx51.  I don't know if you have testers for any other sort of armel.
<charlie-tca> Oh, okay. Yes, I want i386 and amd64 images. I have to see if I have the testers for the powerpc and ps3 images. Right now, I have to say I do not have them.
<persia> and armel?
<charlie-tca> no
<cody-somerville> I might be able to commit to testing on armel.
<persia> heh.  I heard mumblings from micahg as well.
 * SiDi notices new people here.
<SiDi> Hi everybody
<cody-somerville> Hi SiDi :-)
<persia> charlie-tca, So, could you check which targets you can find people to test, and get back to me by alpha 1 release?
<charlie-tca> cody-somerville, we don't have armel, but if we have testers, we can commit to them. 
<charlie-tca> yes, persia 
<persia> Thanks :)
<cody-somerville> Do we currently produce an armel image?
<charlie-tca> Thank you
<charlie-tca> cody-somerville, no
<persia> You don't.  I turned them off as horridly broken in Jaunty, and nobody ever turned them back on.
<charlie-tca> We currently have alternate and desktop i386 and amd64
<charlie-tca> We also have powerpc and ps3 images
<SiDi> hello cody-somerville, hows things been?
<cody-somerville> charlie-tca, persia, Can we get armel turned back on for natty? I'd be interested in tinkering with it.
<charlie-tca> However, without committed testers, we won't have anything except alternate and desktop
<charlie-tca> Yes, I believe we can
<cody-somerville> SiDi, Not too shabby. Hurt my back last week so am a little sore but besides that in good spirits. Yourself?
<persia> cody-somerville, Yes, but not for alpha-1.  Needs to identify specifically which install targets are to be enabled, and have committed testers.
<SiDi> cody-somerville: i'm horribly pissed cause i wasted a whole project day doing nothing because of things outside of my control. Apart from that life is cool and i keep myself busy all the time
<cody-somerville> persia, Is there no way to just have it built but not be a candidate for alpha-1?
<persia> cody-somerville, So you need to determine which of e.g. imx51, omap, omap4 you can test.  Also, just being able to test doesn't mean it works: images which consistently fail to build (e.g. no kernel) are likely to get complaints from the cdimage team.
<charlie-tca> persia, we may not have alpha1. We are merging xfce 4.7, and will need to keep gtk1 now
<charlie-tca> rather gtk2
<persia> charlie-tca, No worries.
<persia> cody-somerville, There might be a way, but the way isn't to talk to me and have me put it on the list to give to the release team for alpha-2 candidate planning.
<cody-somerville> persia, Aren't you on the cdimage team? :P
<persia> No.
<cody-somerville> persia, Should I talk to the release team or the cdimage team?
<persia> I'm just the person assigned the task of talking to all the flavours to identify people responsible for the set of images being released.
<persia> I'd talk to the release team to notify them you don't plan for a certain image to be a candidate, and then to the cdimage team about enabling the build.
<persia> But you'll need to tell me who is responsible for which targets for Alpha-2 anyway, and I don't think there are any armel kernels for alpha-1 (well, maybe omap4)
<charlie-tca> I will get with the release team on the candidate. I am waiting to be sure before I say no to building it
<mr_pouit> mmh, are there actually some powerpc testers/developers for xubuntu?
<charlie-tca> We did have some testers for lucid and maverick. I need to see if they are still around
<cody-somerville> For playstation, what version of playstation is required to test that?
<persia> Lots of the powerpc users seem to want to run Xubuntu, but testing seems not frequent (much of the time the images are oversize, or don't work for some other reason)
<persia> I think you need an old (fat) playstation which hasn't been connected to the internet since Sony released the no-more-linux patch.
<mr_pouit> well, the core libs of xfce 4.7 ftbfs on powerpc, and I don't have any to debug, so ;]
<persia> mr_pouit, Try asking for help in #ubuntu-powerpc.  I don't have time tonight, but sometimes I do, as do others who are there.
<cody-somerville> I think I have a playstation 2 but I don't think its 'fat'.
<persia> Needs to be a playstation3, and not the slim playstation3.
<persia> I think playstation2 was a different architecture.
<charlie-tca> cody-somerville, will you talk to the cdimage team about armel?
<cody-somerville> Yes.
<charlie-tca> I will find out about ps3 and powerpc testers and get back to persia on it
<mr_pouit> I think for the products we have i386 and amd64 for sure. All other arches depend on having testers and at least one dev with such hw to fix ftbfs and other arch-specific issues =]
<persia> charlie-tca, If you can, telling me who is the best contact to confirm milestone/release approval for each install target would be ideal, once you've collected the information.
<charlie-tca> persia, I will do that. thanks
<persia> Wonderful.  Thanks a lot!
<charlie-tca> mr_pouit, maybe between cody-somerville and micahg we can do the armel images, at least. micahg talked to me about that at uds, too.
<mr_pouit> okay, nice
<cody-somerville> Okay. We won't be able to do armel for alpha-1 as the ARM board I have required imx51 kernel which won't be available until maybe alpha-2
<cody-somerville> Unless someone has a board that does have a working kernel for it
<mr_pouit> well, we can decide to drop the alpha 1 (so I can upload xfce4-panel immediately :p)
<charlie-tca> Oh, well, I will check with micahg then. He has an armel system too. 
<charlie-tca> mr_pouit, if we are sure we won't make it, then let's do it.
<charlie-tca> Aren't we better off to start now, and make sure we get a good image for alpha2, then to wait and then have things fall apart again?
<cody-somerville> Is Xubuntu natty in an installable state currently? We still have a week.
<cody-somerville> I see value to getting alpha-1 out to maintain cadence
<charlie-tca> The alternate image is. I haven't tried the desktop image this week
<charlie-tca> I would prefer we get the images together, and give enough time to get xfce4.7 working right.
<cody-somerville> mr_pouit, Are we going to risk being oversized due to gtk2 + gtk3? I assume we'll probably end up pulling in gtk3 as well or are you planning to avoid that?
<charlie-tca> delaying 4.7 for alpha1 seems to putting the cart out front of the horse, since we will have to replace the image anyway.
<mr_pouit> haha, currently we have gtk2+3 and python2.6+2.7 cody-somerville 
<mr_pouit> so completely oversized
<cody-somerville> charlie-tca, yea, delaying would be worse
<charlie-tca> but don't we have to keep gtk2 with xfce 4.8?
<mr_pouit> and unless we drop jockey & co, we have to keep gtk3
<mr_pouit> so we're basically stuck with gtk2+3 without real choice
<charlie-tca> ouch
<cody-somerville> Ubuntu is in the same boat.
<mr_pouit> no, because they chose to switch to gtk3
<mr_pouit> they lead the boat, it's different
<cody-somerville> AFAIK, they won't be able to migrate everything to gtk3 in time
<cody-somerville> If the list of things pulling in gtk3 is small enough we might be able to maintain two binary packages - one gtk2 and gtk3 - for natty (if necessary).
<mr_pouit> anyway, I can wait a week before uploading xfce4-panel 4.7, so let's try to release this alpha 1 :)
<charlie-tca> Okay. who will be the contact? Me, you, cody-somerville ?
<cody-somerville> Sorry to flip-flop but do we really want to release an alpha-1? In our case, it may indeed be better to just start uploading 4.7. Is there a possibility we can upload 4.7 and still release alpha-1 at all?
<mr_pouit> yeah, probability about 0.00000001%
<mr_pouit> all 4.6 panel plugins conflict against the 4.7 panel
<mr_pouit> (so until they are all rebuilt, the desktop won't be installable)
<charlie-tca> mr_pouit, I still am thinking "why alpha1"? If we are making that big a change, alpha1 is not indicative of the natty release.
<mr_pouit> charlie-tca: yeah, I'm thinking this also, but I prefer if we all agree that we won't release it before I start the breakage :p
<charlie-tca> I would prefer we skip alpha1, and just start in with the breaks
<charlie-tca> cody-somerville, flip-flop is good. It lets us look at all the issues.
<cody-somerville> I'm inclined to agree. Can I suggest that we ask the Ubuntu release team for their opinion? I mean, I'm sure they personally don't care but it would be nice to get their professional opinion on what they'd do if they were in the same shoes.
<mr_pouit> probably upload in a ppa, and upload to the archive only when it's fully ready (all plugins rebuilt)
<cody-somerville> Is there any reason we're not considering that?
<charlie-tca> Good suggestion. 
<mr_pouit> yeah, some reason like "it's natty, we've not even reached alpha 1, this can break"
<mr_pouit> but I can start uploading to ~xubuntu-dev/ppa/natty if you prefer
<mr_pouit> (oops, gtg, I'll read the backlog :)
<charlie-tca> Let's ask the release team for an opinion. We just ask in #ubuntu-release or is there a mailing list?
<cody-somerville> If we can start working on 4.7 without breaking so that we can release alpha-1 (which I think has value) then I think that makes the most sense.
<cody-somerville> charlie-tca, I'd just ask in #ubuntu-release.
<cody-somerville> Furthermore, if alpha-1 is released, we can note that "hey, 4.7 is starting to brew in this PPA - feel free to help test" which would be a bit more difficult if they can't install Xubuntu natty at all ;)
<charlie-tca> what I see as the major thing here is we are going to break natty for month or so. Even if we release alpha1, breaking it for a month is going to be a block for anyone that downloaded alpha1
<cody-somerville> I think the benefits from releasing alpha-1 might be more project/community centric then provide any real value development wise.
<charlie-tca> I disagree. I don't like the idea that we release alpha1, some will install it, and then we will most likely break it. I would prefer we break it and not advertise an alpha1 release.
<charlie-tca> Oh, maybe I am thinking wrong again. The main break will be the desktop images, not the installed systems.
<cody-somerville> Well, development release is expected to break and only be somewhat stable/usable around alphas
<charlie-tca> Okay, taking this to the release team, then. Got to keep my thinking straight, I guess.
<charlie-tca> did I word that right?
<mr_pouit> there's already a ppa for lucid, so this "hey, 4.7 is starting to brew in this PPA - feel free to help test" is misleading and not so useful
<cody-somerville> mr_pouit, then lets rebuild for natty and then copy the packages into natty? ;)
<micahg> I can help with the universe rebuilds if you like
<charlie-tca> I'm back, finally
<charlie-tca> cody-somerville, 
<charlie-tca> what happened? I lost internet due to a blizzard here. 
<micahg> charlie-tca: we released Natty 5 months early :D
<charlie-tca> Great! 
 * micahg has to remember to keep the embellishments believable
<charlie-tca> micahg, your name came up earlier today. Are you able to test armel images if we port it?
<micahg> charlie-tca: so, I'll install xubuntu on my smarkbook after I recover it
<charlie-tca> heh
<micahg> yes, assuming I get some help with persia on loading from an SD card
<charlie-tca> cody-somerville is interested in getting armel, possibly for alpha2
<micahg> charlie-tca: I installed a linaro kernel that was not meant for it and now it won't boot
<charlie-tca> Oh, goody
<micahg> charlie-tca: I'd like to see what shape the desktop on armel is in first before we commit to any milestone
 * micahg would be happy if it's working by 12.04
<charlie-tca> I am about 6 hours behind on the earlier discussion now. I don't know what happened
<micahg> charlie-tca: not much
#xubuntu-devel 2010-11-24
<micahg> charlie-tca: as far as packages building, BTW, the xubuntu packageset is totally built on armel, that doesn't mean they all work though, there are some core and desktop-core packages failing to build on armel at the moment though
<charlie-tca> good. We have to commit to testing the image though if we want to have it.
<micahg> right, I just want to make sure it's feasible to get it working before committing, unless committing doesn't mean a guaranteed final delivery of xubuntu on armel
<charlie-tca> Hm, well, right now we are not planning it for alpha1, at least
 * micahg thought there wouldn't be a xubuntu alpha 1
<charlie-tca> That was the discussion when I lost the internet for 6-1/2 hours today
<cody-somerville> micahg, Hi. I don't think we've been properly introduced before. I'm Cody. :-)
<micahg> hi cody-somerville I'm Micah :)
<micahg> cody-somerville: sorry I missed you at UDS
<cody-somerville> micahg, Oh, you were at UDS? You should have pinged me. :)
<micahg> cody-somerville: we were supposed to meet by the DMB meeting that never happened
<micahg> or rather, that would have been convenient
 * cody-somerville grins.
<cody-somerville> micahg, Do you have much experience with Python?
<micahg> cody-somerville: no, but I'd like to start learning it this cycle as I'm sure I'll end up with some python porting for the xul20 migration
 * cody-somerville nods.
<micahg> cody-somerville: so, I've been a Xubuntu user for about 3 years now, I know you're short handed developer wise and was hoping to help
 * micahg hopes he didn't scare cody-somerville away
<cody-somerville> Sorry on phone.
<micahg> cody-somerville: ah, np
<j1mc> hi cody-somerville and micahg 
<charlie-tca> Good evening, j1mc 
<charlie-tca> Hope you are doing well?
<j1mc> hi charlie-tca 
<j1mc> i am well - how about you?
<charlie-tca> Doing pretty good. 
<charlie-tca> Looks like a week of real mean weather here now. schools closed for three days already this week
<j1mc> wow
<charlie-tca> yeah, they already closed for tomorrow
<j1mc> i read the meeting minutes from the last meeting.  did you know that there's someone contributing to docs?
<charlie-tca> I knew there was during maverick. I am hoping they still are working them.
<j1mc> it looks like the last commit was on the 7th of this month
<charlie-tca> hm, that is still good, then. Should I track him/her down and introduce myself?
<j1mc> i think that would be good
<j1mc> he goes by "Book 'em Dano" ... email is: heymrdjd@gmail.com
<charlie-tca> I will do that, then. 
<charlie-tca> Thank you very much. 
<j1mc> :)
<charlie-tca> Good morning
<charlie-tca> Reminder: Xubuntu community meeting 2010-11-25 at 19:00 UTC
<ochosi> charlie-tca: here or in #xubuntu?
<charlie-tca> held in #ubuntu-meeting
<ochosi> k
<charlie-tca> ochosi, that is tomorrow, though. 11-25
<ochosi> got it
<micahg> charlie-tca: the Xubuntu meeting is now on the fridge thanks to nhandler
<charlie-tca> Great! thanks
<micahg> charlie-tca: should I look into joining the Xubuntu team?
<charlie-tca> not yet
<charlie-tca> Let us get the project lead settled and let you get started first
<micahg> charlie-tca: k
#xubuntu-devel 2010-11-25
<ochosi> i'm currently reworking the xubuntu gtk-theme (aka bluebird), feel free to check it out @ http://shimmerproject.org/hg/bluebird-colors > greybird. in response to the reviews being somewhat divided regarding the blue i started by reducing it
<ochosi> note: this is work in progress
<ochosi> i also work on an xfce-complete version of faenza (based on 0.7) which you can check out here: http://shimmerproject.org/hg/faenza-xfce
<ochosi> charlie-tca: i'm afraid i won't be able to make the meeting tonight
<ochosi> charlie-tca: feel free to forward the two links i just posted to the community meeting (and please backward the feedback to me, in case there is any)
<charlie-tca> ochosi, thanks for letting me know. I will post those in the meeting.
<ochosi> and please don't forget the "work in progress" part ;)
<ochosi> charlie-tca: and if you already bring up the topic of looks and feel you could set up a wiki page for natty where we could collect/discuss all that (if that doesn't exist yet)
<charlie-tca> There is discussion about it happening on the community artwork wiki
<charlie-tca> uh, mailing list, I mean
<ochosi> a-ha
<ochosi> maybe i should subscribe to that again
<ochosi> why not on xubuntu-devel?
<charlie-tca> Spec is on https://wiki.uibuntu.com/Artwork/specs/0007_Xubuntu_Natty_Wallpaper
<charlie-tca> We don't have the artists ?
<ochosi> hm, wiki seems to be down
<ochosi> ah, error in the link
<charlie-tca> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Specs/0007_Xubuntu_Natty_Wallpaper
<ochosi> yep, got it
<charlie-tca> couple of errors in the link :-(
<ochosi> :)
<charlie-tca> I started this back in the beginning of Maverick, it has taken a while to find the right places and people to get it going.
<ochosi> right, so who is in charge of artwork right now?
<charlie-tca> me
<ochosi> ah right
<charlie-tca> thus the request each month for a artwork lead
<ochosi> didn't see that
<charlie-tca> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Leaders
<mr_pouit> hi there
<charlie-tca> Hello, mr_pouit 
<ochosi> hi mr_pouit 
<charlie-tca> Did we decide what to do about the alpha1? I got lost during the discussion here and on #ubuntu-release when I lost the internet for a day
<mr_pouit> I think I will be home a bit too late this evening, I'm not sure I'll be on time for the meeting, so just in case, the only "news" since last week is the upload of exo 0.5.5 to natty ;)
<charlie-tca> Thank you
<charlie-tca> If we haven't decided anything, I think we push the alpha1 for i386 and amd64 only. 
<charlie-tca> The panel upload won't break the installed users, will it?
<mr_pouit> yeah, I think it's better to release it
<charlie-tca> I will contact persia and the release today, then.
<charlie-tca> s/release/release team
<mr_pouit> (and yeah, from what I can see daily in my mailbox, powerpc images are completely broken)
<charlie-tca> agreed. I don't see them going out for alpha1, at least.
<ochosi> charlie-tca: g2g now, if you could mention the following points of focus for feedback on the theme that would be nice:
<ochosi>  * panel
<ochosi>  * window-switcher (alt-tab)
<ochosi>  * scrollbars
<charlie-tca> ochosi, I would be happy to 
<ochosi> cool thanks
<ochosi> btw, the current panel color focusses on accessibility and should work with both bright and dark monochrome icons
<charlie-tca> The bluebird panel color?
<charlie-tca> It is too dark to see the icons easily on my monitors
<ochosi> no greybird
<charlie-tca> Oh, okay. I will check it out then. 
<ochosi> good
<charlie-tca> Are you or knome on the artwork mailing list?
<ochosi> i'm not, not sure about knome
<ochosi> is there a xubuntu-artwork ml?
<ochosi> or just ubuntu-artwork?
<charlie-tca> no, sorry. I meant the community artwork ml
<ochosi> ah, k, no, not on that one
<charlie-tca> ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com
<charlie-tca> I am struggling to work with thorwil and saleel on the artwork specs. I feel like I don't really know much there
<ochosi> right, i'll read up on that thread as soon as i have time
<ochosi> g2g now, see you
<charlie-tca> Okay. Thanks
<charlie-tca> Have a really good day!
<charlie-tca> Xubuntu Community Meeting in 1 hour in #ubuntu-meeting
<cody-somerville> woot
<cody-somerville> I can attend this one,
<charlie-tca> Oh, good! I will be there too.
#xubuntu-devel 2010-11-26
<mhall119> sorry I missed the meeting, but it's Thanksgiving 'round these parts
<charlie-tca> No problem
<charlie-tca> mhall119, Happy Thanksgiving
<mhall119> thanks, you too
<ochosi> charlie-tca: just read the log of the meeting, so nothing conclusive there
<charlie-tca> 8gm
<charlie-tca> Good morning
<charlie-tca> powerpc and ps3 images will continue to build daily, but will not be released. Hopefully, we can find someone that wants to pick up fixing and testing them.
<charlie-tca> We need to re-examine the issue down the road. Will first get alpha1 out and worry about 10.04.2 and alpha2.
#xubuntu-devel 2010-11-27
<charlie-tca> mr_pouit, we are going to continue those emails about powerpc, but will not publish the alpha image
<mr_pouit> thanks, I think I already read that yesterday
<mr_pouit> it makes a bit hard to detect any "real" issue however, if it's hidden among all these powerpc failures ;/
<charlie-tca> I can blame that on "old age" maybe? memory failure here
<charlie-tca> I can agree it is making a mess of finding issues. Sorry for that.
<mr_pouit> ah no, you didn't speak about emails yesterday ;)
<mr_pouit> 19:06  charlie-tca: powerpc and ps3 images will continue to build daily, but will not be released. Hopefully, we can find someone that wants to pick up fixing  and testing them.
<mr_pouit> 19:07  charlie-tca: We need to re-examine the issue down the road. Will first get alpha1 out and worry about 10.04.2 and alpha2.
<charlie-tca> mr_pouit, oops. I am losing it, huh ;-)
<mr_pouit> huhu
<mr_pouit> and for me the team report is the same as last month "uploading xfce 4.7.x", so nothing to do ;P
<charlie-tca> Thank you. That works for me
#xubuntu-devel 2010-11-28
<bilalakhtar> Can I work on the gnumeric merge?
<bilalakhtar> I have merged it well already, and it builds fine
<bilalakhtar> I asked previous uploader, who allowed the merge
<bilalakhtar> and hence I am uploading
<mr_pouit> bilalakhtar: yep, feel free to do it, thanks! (I think nobody from xubuntu-dev takes care of it anymoreâ¦)
<bilalakhtar> thanks mr_pouit 
<charlie-tca> Good morning
<charlie-tca> xubuntu images are working today, both alternate and desktop
<mr_pouit> okay, uploaded new xfce4-notifyd, xfce4-appfinder, xfwm4, ristretto, xfce4-dev-tools and xfce4-volumed
<mr_pouit> at least alpha 1 will have some parts of 4.7.x
<charlie-tca> w00t!
<ochosi> kewl
<charlie-tca> thanks a bunch, That is great
<ochosi> mr_pouit: so what's the big troublemaker in 4.7? the panel?
<mr_pouit> yeah, exo + panel + thunar
#xubuntu-devel 2011-11-21
<ochosi> morning everyone
<madnick> morning ochosi 
<ochosi> hey nick
<ochosi> what up? :)
<madnick> Not much, just had lunch :) 
<madnick> now it's time to do some work ;)
<ochosi> righty :)
<ochosi> where are you at?
<ochosi> i mean work-wise
<madnick> Well, I need to setup a configuration system for the configuration GUI (to not hardcode paths)
<madnick> And then I need to implement the CSS for the greeter
<madnick> Because I have implemented all functionallity needed for our theme (but I will also implement all of it) :P
<madnick> But for the draft its enough :P
<ochosi> ok cool :)
<ochosi> have to talked to xfce-devs about the configuration system (xfconf) yet?
<madnick> nope
<madnick> i will do that today
<ochosi> yeah, think that'd be a good starting-point
<mr_pouit> madnick: remember that the greeter isn't run by the same user who configures it :>
<mr_pouit> (so I think a config file in /etc/lightdm + xfce_rc_* from libxfce4util will be simpler than xfconf)
<ochosi> madnick: mr_pouit just eradicated the need to talk to xfce-devs about xfconf ;)
<madnick> mr_pouit: thanks :)
<madnick> mr_pouit: I must ask you in that case, since that would be using a file directly, wouldn't a GKeyFile be just as good? (thats what LightDM itself uses)
<mr_pouit> of course
<madnick> okay, thanks :)
<madnick> ochosi: how can i find out the size of a selection in gimp?
<ochosi> madnick: in the toolbox there's a "position" and "size" section for the rectangle when it's selected
<ochosi> you should also be able to modify the values from there if you know how what size the rectangle should be
<madnick> doesnt seem to work for stuff i did not select myself :P
<madnick> gimp always makes me *madder*nick :)
<ochosi> :)
<ochosi> what do you mean, stuff you didn't select yourself?
<madnick> well, i tried to steal some stuff from your xcf
<madnick> and those are selections when i mark them
<madnick> but i dont get the size
<ochosi> are you sure they're selections?
<madnick> no :P
<ochosi> i think you might be mixing them up with layer-boundaries
<ochosi> selections are lost (almost) as soon as you use another tool
<madnick> hah! I can press "scale layer" and get the size ;)
<ochosi> yup, what you want is the layer-size :)
<ochosi> k, off for lunch, see you later!
<madnick> cya
<scott-work> micahg: can we start working on the sync from debian stuff later this week?
<scott-work> i have stuff that i want to get done, some things are taking longer that i hoped, and the end of this week is a US holiday so i'll be more available
<ochosi> scott-work: iirc you said you have to use a different/modified version of greybird for studio..?
<micahg> scott-work: sure, but there's not much to do ATM
<ochosi> and iirc you said you mostly want to change the panels. just wanted to note that you don't have to change the theme to ship a different panel layout
<micahg> scott-work: err, next week is better :)
<micahg> for me at least, alpha freeze will be next week as well, but stuff can be prepared in advance of the alpha1 release to be uploaded upon it's release
<micahg> s/it's/its/
<scott-work> micahg: next week would be even better for me :)
<scott-work> ochosi: it looks like i will be evaluating xubuntu/ubuntustudio themes, UI, etc this week
<scott-work> i want to understand where the packages are between the two first, then start looking at what we want to change
<scott-work> ochosi: here's my loose plan though
<ochosi> mhm
<scott-work> 1. get ubuntu studio moved over to the greybird theme first, making any small changes that are already known
<scott-work> 2. evaulate
<scott-work> 3. then make other changes as necessary
<scott-work> simple, right?  :)
<scott-work> there's a maxim i'm trying to incorporate "don't let perfect stand in the way of better"
<ochosi> sounds good
<scott-work> ochosi:  in which package or source is the greybird theme for xubuntu?
 * scott-work thinks that many things in xubuntu are included in xubuntu-artwork
<ochosi> scott-work: it's in murrine-themes
<scott-work> i think there are two main obstacles for me in this process
<scott-work> 1. my incomplete understanding of exactly how everything is set
<scott-work> 2. the deltas between ubuntu studio and xubuntu on how things are packaged
<scott-work> #1 i can work through in each instance
<scott-work> but #2 is something i think i need to wrap my head around first to make any significant and correct progress
<scott-work> which is what i hope to do this week
<ochosi> right, unfortunately i'll be little help in those areas
<scott-work> ochosi: if you only provide oversight to make sure i'm not forgetting something largely important, for example not getting the xubuntu icon package, that would probably be more than enough help :)
<ochosi> ok :)
<scott-work> but i can't launch into something without getting some organizational or conceptual understanding first...
<scott-work> so i'll be trying to grasp what all packages are required and hopefully get you to look at them
<scott-work> then i can make the collation between the two sets
<ochosi> scott-work: ok, i can give it a try :)
<micahg> scott-work: I can help with #2, we'll try to keep diffs to a minimum if possibel
<scott-work> micahg: i agree with reducing the delta and this might mean that ubuntu studio might drop a package or two
<scott-work> because it will be rolled into another package
<micahg> scott-work: huh?  no, seeds can be different, I was talking about in-package diffs
<scott-work> micahg: studio has ubuntustudio-sounds but there isn't a xubuntu-sounds package
<scott-work> i don't currently know that xubuntu has specific sounds or not
<micahg> I don't think we do
<scott-work> my general feeling is that the xubuntu-artwork package creates several binaries that are split out into several packages in studio
<scott-work> but i could be wrong though
<micahg> there's nothing wrong with that though
<scott-work> oh, no...not saying anything is wrong, just different implementations that will need to be reconciled
<micahg> nope, not necessarily
<micahg> you're free to do it different in this case
<micahg> whichever is easier for you
<scott-work> i would think sustainability would be to move to the xubuntu paradigm and minimize the delta as we discussed :)
<scott-work> micahg: would it be problematic or possible to basically make ubuntustudio-foo simply depend on xubuntu-foo and then also include any delta in the package?
<micahg> right, that's not delta IMHO
<micahg> ok, I see what you're saying
<micahg> you could still do that with it broken out
<micahg> but if you have minimal content on your side, consolidation could make sense into a single source 
<scott-work> micahg: let me get my head around what is in xubuntu and where and then likewise with ubuntu studio and we can then discuss the perferable options
<micahg> ok
 * micahg waves
<micahg> knome: meeting?
<madnick> micahg: 21 utc
<micahg> madnick: that's now :)
<madnick> oh, you are right, i was thinking +1 hour from now :P
<knome> ugh.
<knome> who all is here?
<beardygnome> we not having this meeting?
<beardygnome> o/
<knome> i forgot.
<Unit193> Well, I was about to leave, but I can stick around...
<knome> can we just postpone to next week?
<knome> there is nothing too important
<knome> we can sort all out by email
<Unit193> Well, what is?
<micahg> knome: well, review of the roadmap was scheduled, you should either announce an extension or just a delay in reviewing, but let people know when that will be
<knome> micahg, there is nothing to review really
<micahg> knome: which apps should be chosen is a big thing :)
<knome> micahg, we're not going to review *those*
<knome> micahg, just "it's okay, you can start comparing apps"
<micahg> knome: when will that review happen?
 * micahg was under the impression that would happen today
<knome> micahg, well, featuredefinitionfreeze is on thursday...
<knome> there's no app comparisons ready
<knome> we will keep ristretto as default
<knome> i had the impression that wasn't the default
<knome> but it is
<knome> so no need to change that
<micahg> right, gthumb was made available
<knome> yeah.
<knome> i also thought it was set as default
<knome> gridcube is working with the media player comparison
<knome> but he doesn't seem to be online
<knome> and the comparison is far from ready
<knome> and tbh, none of the items are something we really need to review
<knome> and those that need community discussion, are still in the drafting phase
<knome> like "new default shortcuts"
<knome> doesn't have to happen before featuredefinitionfreeze
<knome> so did everybody disappear ? :P
<Unit193> Yeppers
<knome> hmm.
<micahg> I'm fine with the current set of apps...
<knome> let's go through the items super-quickly
<knome> #startmeeting Xubuntu community meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Nov 21 21:19:41 2011 UTC.  The chair is knome. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<Unit193> madnick
<knome> #title Xubuntu brainstorming week has ended
<knome> errm
<knome> #topic Xubuntu brainstorming week has ended
<knome> #subtopic Review roadmap for Xubuntu 12.04
<knome> anybody has objections about any of the items?
<knome> #info Roadmap is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Roadmap/
<knome> (brb)
<knome> #info You have until end of November to take items that do not have assignee yet. Specifications for application comparisons should also be ready by end of November, ready for discussion.
<knome> #action knome will send en email to the mailing list asking for possible counterarguments (with a deadline) about roadmap items.
<meetingology> ACTION: knome will send en email to the mailing list asking for possible counterarguments (with a deadline) about roadmap items.
<knome> #topic Ubuntu 5-year release schedule for LTS
<knome> #info Carried to next meeting.
<knome> #topic Maintaining official/recognized derivative/flavor status.
<knome> #action knome to talk with skaet
<meetingology> ACTION: knome to talk with skaet
<knome> #topic Meeting times
<knome> #info Carried to next meeting.
<knome> #topic Team updates
<knome> any updates, anyone?
<micahg> mr_pouit did a few updates
<micahg> #info mr_pouit updated a few packages
<micahg> #info ristretto 0.3.0 is now in precise
<micahg> ..
<knome> oki
<knome> any other updates?
<micahg> #info gmusicbrowser 1.1.8 should be coming after alpha 1
<knome> :o
<knome> madnick, ?
<knome> okay...
<knome> #topic Announcements
<knome> #info No announcements.
<knome> #topic Other business
<knome> #info Project leader changes will be executed per https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/xubuntu-devel/2011-November/008042.html, since no counterarguments rose, and no other nominations for the website leader were made.
<knome> #endmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Nov 21 21:38:08 2011 UTC.  
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2011/xubuntu-devel.2011-11-21-21.19.moin.txt
<knome> tattadaa
<micahg> thanks knome
<knome> np micahg 
<knome> and sorry for forgetting
<knome> :/
<knome> i knew today would be a bad day
<knome> but didn't want to cancel the meeting
<pleia2> our website sprint went well I think :)
<knome> but apparently i should've
<knome> yeah.
<knome> pleia2, forgot that ;]
 * micahg thinks it's important that we decide on meeting times so people can add calendar entries
<knome> yeah.
<knome> i don't think we *really* need one meeting per week
<micahg> possibly close to feature freeze to make sure we stay on track
<micahg> but right now, we probably don't
<beardygnome> knome: what frequency do you think we should have?
<micahg> we should have one next sunday though to discuss alpha 1 if we're having an image
<knome> beardygnome, maybe once per two weeks
<knome> micahg, yeah, agreed that once per week makes sense before important freezes
<ochosi> knome: sry i couldn't attend the meeting
<knome> hah np
<knome> the "meeting"
<knome> ;)
<ochosi> yeah, just read the backlog :D
<ochosi> honestly i don't have many updates anyway
<mr_pouit> grrmbl /o\
<ochosi> and you know about most of them
<knome> hahah
<knome> i just can't remember...
<mr_pouit> (sorry for not being here for the meeting)
<knome> if people want to add items for the team updates, we can add them now
<knome> err
<knome> hahah
<knome> "project leader changes"
<knome> sounds good
<knome> that's true but it sounds a bit wrong...
<beardygnome> right guys, i'm off.  will keep an eye on the ml for the next meeting time
<knome> anybody want to add team updates?
<knome> ochosi, ? madnick, ?
<knome> i'll update the team report, so if there are things done, i'd like to get them in
<ochosi> well the greeter is in progress and the settings UI for lightdm is finalized
<ochosi> and bluebird gtk3 is in progress
<ochosi> but didn't get very far up to now
<knome> pleia2, ACTION: pleia2 to send email about next sprint time 
<pleia2> :)
<knome> team updates added to this months reports 
<ochosi> odd, nm-applet doesn't seem to work anymore here
<ochosi> at least i can't see it in the indicator area
<micahg> mr_pouit: BTW, abiword has been orphaned, do you want to adopt w/me?
<micahg> someone else already said they'd help also in debian bug 648341
<ubottu> Debian bug 648341 in wnpp "O: abiword -- efficient, featureful word processor with collaboration" [Normal,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/648341
<knome> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Roadmap
<knome> there is * in the assignee field for items that need community approval before committing changes to repositories
<knome> do you think any other one should have that?
<mr_pouit> micahg: I don't use it at all (I only open and close it when I test daily lives, or to check that greybird looks nice everywhere ;-)
<micahg> I don't use it either :(
<micahg> was just thinking since it's seeded for us that we might want to maintain in Debian
<micahg> otherwise, w/out a proper maintainer, maybe we should look for another word processor
<mr_pouit> yeah :/ (I maintained in Debian some packages I didn't even use a few years ago, and it wasn't my smartest move -- like, orphaning them after six monthsâ¦)
<mr_pouit> maybe we could consider libreofficeâ¦
<micahg> we don't have 60MB, we'd have to drop something like GIMP...
<micahg> or all the langpacks
<mr_pouit> well, if the "new" maintainer in 648341 wants to set up a team, I can help though
<mr_pouit> (since I guess we want to keep gimp & langpacks:p)
<knome> boo
<knome> the wiki is slow
<knome> mr_pouit, i'm all for changing gimp to an easier to use app, as long as it has some core features...
<knome> micahg, can you ask GridCube what he meant with that?
 * micahg hopes he's subscribed to the ML and will reply :)
<mr_pouit> Reintegrate the update manager to the notification area
<mr_pouit> knome: ^
<mr_pouit> you mean, instead of having update-manager that randomly pops up and takes focus?
<micahg> only does that for me on unity...
<mr_pouit> (if yes, then it's a consequence of the port to gsettings: we set a gconf key to ensure that, but I 'forgot' to migrate it to gsettings)
<mr_pouit> only new oneiric installs are affected I think (older ones will have the gconf settings migrated automagically)
<micahg> that would explain it for me :)
<knome> lol, okay
<knome> mr_pouit, will you just fix that anyway?
<mr_pouit> you can assign it to me yeah, it's just a one line fix in xubuntu-default-settings
<knome> mr_pouit, well, i'll just remove the irem
<knome> *item
<knome> mr_pouit, is there a bug for that?
<mr_pouit> no (afaik)
<knome> okay
<mr_pouit> with gconf it was /apps/update-notifier/auto_launch, does anyone know what is it with gsettings now?
<mr_pouit>  /com/ubuntu/update-notifier/auto-launch ?
<mr_pouit> (committed in bzr for xubuntu-default-settings, should be part of the next upload -- when more changes are included)
<knome> heh, thanks :)
<knome> that's quick
<mr_pouit> (now that I restored the old behavior) micahg has a point too
<mr_pouit> if there's an indicator and it works fine, maybe we want it instead?
<mr_pouit> (unless it's integrated in indicator-session, or anything specific like that)
<micahg> we already have it :)
<micahg> or at least I do on my oneiric machine
<knome> hmm
<knome> :)
<knome> i don't know about that
<knome> feel free to add a more fitting blueprint item
#xubuntu-devel 2011-11-22
<Unit193> I'm sure it's pointless to say, but "Quick Links" also goes over on FF10 (New website, FAQ page)
 * pleia2 has a look
<Unit193> I'm slowly reading the backlog, but that was already talked about a little
<knome> it's fixed in my local stylesheet
<Unit193> Don't shoot me, but would it also help to have a "How does Xubuntu differ from Lubuntu?" (I've seen this a little, but I don't remember what channel :( )
<knome> i don't think we need that if we specify what xubuntu is and how does it differ from ubuntu well enough
<knome> we can quickly mention the other derivatives too, but imo, they should define themself how they differ from ubuntu
<Unit193> Kk, I'll just read it silently now :)
<Pjotr> Hello, I have a feature request for Xubuntu 12.04. It's in this bug report:
<Pjotr> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xfdesktop4/+bug/893718
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 893718 in xfdesktop4 (Ubuntu) "Xubuntu should have less icons on the desktop" [Undecided,New]
<Pjotr> I've filed it against xfdesktop4, but I'm not sure whether that's the right package.
<Pjotr> What do you think?
<mr_pouit> xubuntu-default-settings
<Pjotr> mr_pouit: thanks, I'll change it. :-)
<Pjotr> mr_pouit: and what do you think about the feature request itself?
<mr_pouit> I never use the desktop, so I don't have any strong opinion (but with your settings, usb keys mounted  won't show)
<Pjotr> that's correct, but that is no problem: Thunar opens automatically with the contents of the USB stick anyway. No need for a desktop icon...
<Pjotr> I've added the USB stick issue to the bug description... 
<cody-somerville> knome, Hi. just wanted to let you know I got your e-mail the other day. I'll be sure to get around to it before I go on vacation this Thursday.
<ochosi> knome: hm, now that canonical has decided to drop banshee in favor of rhythmbox again i think we probably shouldn't follow their example. it will just make us look as "flipping" as they are
<micahg> ochosi: there's still a work item to reevaluate at the last alpha
<ochosi> micahg: i know, i was just saying what i think. knome's the mighty PL anyway ;)
 * micahg thinks we should do a proper evaluation and do what's best, IMHO flipping on something is changing a core value, not making an appropriate decision based on current facts
<ochosi> i agree with you in general, i just think that a lts-release (yeah i know, for xubuntu you can discuss whether it really is lts, but still the core ubuntu packages stay maintained) is maybe not the ideal timing. but anyway, i'm looking forward to proper application evaluations again, we haven't had them since 2 years or so
<micahg> well, all the more reason to do a proper evaluation and look at what the LTS user would want
<ochosi> yeah, you're probably right.
#xubuntu-devel 2011-11-23
<olbi> hello :)
<pleia2> some xubuntu love here http://www.ainer.org/ubuntu-alternatives-xfce-having-a-go-with-fedora-16
<olbi> Fedora 16 with Xfce look ugly :P
<olbi> Xubuntu and LMDE Xfce looks better
<Sysi> like article says, fedora has upstream xfce defaults
<Sysi> that bug with nvidia in selinux-problem, it's actually trivial to fix ..once you know what to do
<astraljava> Sysi: You just described about 99.74% of world's IT problems.
<Sysi> astraljava: basically all, "what to do" just varies really much
<astraljava> Well, not all that much. The bulk of the work is always finding out the problem.
<pleia2> ordered some round xubuntu stickers from moo.com, once I receive them and confirm their awesomeness I'll add instructions to the wiki (or site?) about how to order some yourself
<micahg> mr_pouit: Ubuntu just seeded gvfs-bin to make sure gnome-open is available, does xdg-open use exo for us or do we need this change as well?
<micahg> we happen to get gvfs-bin for free at the moment due to gthumb
<olbi> is there possible to add translated files of xfce 4.8 from i.e. todays to near updates?
#xubuntu-devel 2011-11-24
<photon> will Xubuntu 12.04 LTS desktop version be also supported for 5 years just as the 'standard' Ubuntu 12.04? I'm currently moving away from Ubuntu because of Unity and so far Debian and Xubuntu are on the table (I'm looking for a distro that is really stable and supported for a long time). Xubuntu 12.04 LTS getting security updates for 5 years would be a huge plus.
<photon> AFAIK, the only thing that needs to be done is providing security updates for XFCE, as the rest is taken care of by the standard Ubuntu version.
<photon> I guess my question goes to knome :)
<micahg> photon: we were planning 3 yrs before
<photon> micahg: it'd be cool if you guys reconsider since Kubuntu is probably doing the same, and the majority of the work is already taken care of by the Ubuntu team.
<micahg> photon: the problem is that Xfce isn't maintained for that long even in Debian
<micahg> Xfce for 3 years is a stretch, but if we're aligned with Debian, it's possible
<photon> you mean it's not even maintained that long upstream?
<micahg> right, they usually only support the current stable branch
<micahg> and 4.10 is slated for release in March
<photon> but 3 years is do-able?
<micahg> with Debian's help, I think between Debian and Ubuntu we have 3 devs ATM :)
<photon> oh :)
<photon> well, that's understandable then.
<micahg> and we only do this in our free time
<photon> yes. right. 3 years sounds more sane then.
 * micahg will have to support Firefox for 5 years in security updates
<photon> why?
 * micahg is an Ubuntu Security engineer :)
<photon> oh :)
<photon> I see
<micahg> but that's my day job :)
<photon> if it's any motivation, you'll probably get some more followers in the next months, given that almost everybody I talked to runs away from Unity :) and Xubuntu seems to be a really neat alternative.
<micahg> we're happy to sponsor fixes from people for Xubuntu stuff
<micahg> and anyone who's interested in contributing can usually be found stuff to do
<photon> nice :)
<micahg> Unity's really not that bad, I run it on my dev machine, I run Xubuntu on my other one :)
<micahg> but for people who are used to GNOME 2, it can be a transition that just takes a little getting used to, but gnome shell is the same story
<photon> Would you rather recommend Kubuntu?
<micahg> no, Xubuntu is similar to the old GNOME 2 style
<micahg> Kubuntu is a great distro as well
<micahg> but for those used to GNOME 2, Xubuntu is probably the easiest transition
<micahg> it's just a matter of personal preference, that's the beauty of Linux distros and Ubuntu specifically, you can easily switch between at least 5 difference DEs
<micahg> s/difference/different/
<photon> yes, I agree :)
<photon> do you see any chance of Xubuntu LTS support being prematurely dropped, as all three of you do that in your free time (if I understood you correctly)? I'm asking because I'm considering it for a larger deployment and getting security updates for the full 3 years is quite important.
<holstein> think of it like this... the repos are maintained for 5 years
<holstein> all the buntu's, the official ones, get these updates
<micahg> photon: you'll get the core security updates regardless of our LTS status, the last official xfce CVE that I know of  was 2 yrs ago
<micahg> well, the stuff in main is supported for 5 years
<photon> just to make sure I understand you correctly, what you are saying is, everything that isn't XFCE will get security updates for 5 years anyway, and XFCE for 3 years, and in addition to that XFCE is quite unlikely to have a security flaw anyway since the last CVE was 2 yrs ago?
<micahg> photon: no, the core components that are shared with Ubuntu desktop will be supported for 5 years, Xubuntu stuff, we still haven't decided if it'll be 18 mo or 3yrs, but the last point is correct, also, you would be free to fix stuff and have it sponsored as well even if we're not doing it
<photon> ok
<micahg> also, there seems to be a CVE on average every 2 yrs, but we can try to at least fix those if the patch is backportable
<micahg> photon: keep in mind, we probably won't be updating much except for high/critical fixes for the LTS due to our limited resources
<micahg> and the support is best effort, the only thing we'd actually be committing to for the LTS status is to produce point releases for the first 2 years
<photon> what are point releases? :) 
<micahg> photon: updated CDs with whatever updates were added to the release
<photon> oh I see.
<micahg> the first one is usually 3 months after release, with subsequent ones following every 6 months until the next LTS
<photon> as in 10.04.3?
<micahg> exactly
<micahg> I think we still need to draft a proposal as to what we expect to do in terms of LTS support
<knome> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1963776/menu-manager/1.jpg
<knome> comments? :)
<edii> :)
<knome> point to edii
<ochosi> edii: looks nice! to me it'd be more natural though to have the available things on the left and the selection on the right
<edii> ah, right! i never even thought about that, but now that you've mentioned it i guess it would be more natural
<ochosi> at least that's how most other progs do it (ftp-clients etc.)
<ochosi> knome: about the icon-theme in xubuntu:
<knome> yes
<ochosi> i talked to danrabbit recently about the future of the elementary icon theme
<edii> yep, i think i'll change that
<knome> ochosi, mmh?
<ochosi> he's trying to reduce the DE specific icons
<knome> aha...
<ochosi> but we can fix that mostly with symlinks as he won't really drop icons
<ochosi> so i guess we might not have to be afraid of "losing" elementary
<knome> do you think it's a viable option to keep using it for the foreseeable future?
<ochosi> we should probably just do an xfce-addon pack
<knome> yeah
<ochosi> yeah, i think it'll be fine
<knome> sounds fine
<knome> isn't that what we've been doing anyway?
<knome> well not in that scale, but still
<ochosi> and he's not planning drastic changes in the next releases it seems
<ochosi> yeah, but if you look into the 4.0 folder in the elementary-icon themes bzr branch it can be a bit scary :)
<ochosi> i mean some nice improvements there, but rather incomplete and some changes not for the better
<ochosi> but as i said, no reason to be afraid
<ochosi> he'll mostly update mimetypes next
<ochosi> which is a good thing imo
<ochosi> atm mostly the "music"-mimes have changed and look a bit inconsistent with the rest
<knome> okay
<ochosi> but that'll be better if he updates the rest as well
<ochosi> and it's still the best-looking most-complete theme out there
<knome> yeah
<ochosi> (other than faenza)
<ochosi> but:
<ochosi> we could consider renaming the icon-theme
<ochosi> because the name is ridiculously long atm
<knome> to?
<ochosi> and we could do two versions, one linking to the bright panel-icons
<ochosi> good question :)
<ochosi> but "elementary Xubuntu dark" is rather longish. i mean if we also do "elementary Xubuntu" for the bright variant then it might in fact be ok again
<ochosi> having the "elementary" tribute in the name might be fine, but we could also do as ubuntu does and just call them "Xubuntu" and "Xubuntu dark"
<knome> Xubuntu e8y-dark
<ochosi> e8y? :)
<knome> elementary
<knome> like l10n or i18n
<ochosi> mhm
<ochosi> rather nerdy abbreviation
<knome> heh
<knome> or just e-dark
<ochosi> i mean for the average joe user
<ochosi> yeah
<ochosi> that's probably better
<knome> but then they'll be like "what e"
<ochosi> since elementary also use "e" as their logo
<knome> mm
<ochosi> we can set that in the tooltip/description
<ochosi> s/set/say
<knome> yeah.
<ochosi> i actually forgot that that was there :)
<knome> just call them "Xubuntu dark" and "Xubuntu light"
<ochosi> that makes dropping "elementary" a lot easier
<ochosi> yeah
<knome> and tell them it's based on elementary
<ochosi> btw, any more thoughts on the current design of the login madnick and me have been working on? (mostly madnick ;) )
<ochosi> mostly whether you like the look
<knome> nothing special really
<ochosi> functionality-wise i think it'd be good to also get the user-chooser-menu when clicking the current nickname, not just when clicking the avatar
<knome> just make the rounded corners less rounded
<ochosi> everywhere or just the outside of the black box?
<knome> at least the outside
<ochosi> k
<knome> hard to say if it'd look weird if there is two "levels" or roundness
<ochosi> yeah, i want the "login" button to look like a gtk-button actually
<ochosi> or at least like a real button
<knome> mm
<ochosi> do you think we should keep the bright/grey outline?
<knome> don't know
<ochosi> :)
<knome> depends on how you want to change the things that are inside the box
<ochosi> hm, not sure. i mean personally i like the overall look of it, that's why i made it that way :)
<knome> brb
<ochosi> knome: btw, not sure whether it's feasible, but one item i forgot for the roadmap is "beautify xubuntu's lockscreen". maybe we can discuss this at the next meeting
<knome> mm-hmm
<ochosi> the technical implications might also have to be discussed
<knome> or we can add it as work item inside "misc. appearance"
<knome> a-ha
<ochosi> because it might mean forking xscreensaver...
<knome> then maybe not ;]
<ochosi> afaik the ugly lockscreen is hardcoded
<knome> yeah, add that to our meeting agenda
<ochosi> and theming-support was never added
<ochosi> but i think if we coordinate with -studio we could probably do something nice with it
<ochosi> just generic improvement, no "xubuntu-look"
<knome> yeah
<knome> as long as it is committable to upstream too...
<Sysi> are there problems with gnome-screensaver or others?
<holstein> i dont really have a problem with it
<holstein> i think the screen locker looks like something from a different OS
<holstein> like... say... windows 95
<Sysi> at some point there was.. on lucid there are bugs with xscreensaver
<holstein> i dont want/need a screensaver, so im using xlockmore-gl, which has its own problems
<holstein> Sysi: i have an 11.10 install if you need me to test something buggy
<Sysi> I have 11.10 on virtualbox
<micahg> knome: are we having a meeting on sunday?
<knome> micahg, i'm not sure if i can make it
<micahg> knome: ok, what are we doing about alpha 1 as well as our recognized derivative status
<knome> i have to talk about that with skear
<knome> err, skaet
<knome> do you have a suggestion?
<knome> i mean, i'm sure it's more a question in the dev+packages side than the rest
<micahg> well, do we have testers lined up?  any outstanding bugs need to be fixed?
<knome> for alpha1?
<micahg> yes
<knome> i'd say let's go for alphas1
<knome> -s
<micahg> knome: also, you need to get a report in for the release meeting tomorrow
<knome> the testers should know we are starting soon
<knome> micahg, yep.
<knome> micahg, are you attendind?
<knome> d=g ...
<micahg> not sure, if I'm around, I might lurk
<knome> okay
<micahg> I can't commit ATM
<knome> hm?
<knome> to what
<micahg> the release meeting
<knome> yah, np, madnick should be taking care of that
 * micahg is also curious why we're writing a lightdm theming engine
<knome> do you have a suggestion for the recognized derivative status?
<micahg> a theme make sense, an engine, not so much
<knome> madnick wants to do it that way
<micahg> knome: I think we should go for it, but we have to discuss our LTS plans
<knome> i have no problems with that
<knome> (re greeter engine)
<knome> as long as he has time for the other tasks too
<micahg> knome: that sounds like something Robert should be doing, or at least if madnick is doing it, something that should be coordinated with robert
<madnick> micahg: what engine did you have in mind?
<knome> who is robert?
<madnick> Because a theme cannot really do much
<madnick> It can change background
<micahg> knome: robert_ancell, author of lightdm
<madnick> Thats pretty much it
<knome> micahg, why wasn't this raised up before? (it's not too late now, but work has been done with the engine too)
<micahg> madnick: ok, but this is something that probably belongs in core lightdm or you'll end up doing a lot more work, so I'd suggest trying to work with robert_ancell to get this in lightdm itself
<micahg> madnick: work as in maintenance :)
<madnick> micahg: hmm, not sure if i understand this
<micahg> knome: this is why I wanted to review the roadmap in the meeting :)
<knome> micahg, i see.
<madnick> The "engine" is just a binary called by lightdm
<madnick> To allow themeing
<madnick> Its not acctually a library or anything
<knome> micahg, if engines are supported, why can't we write one?
<madnick> Its like with GDM
<madnick> you could write your own binaries for that too
<madnick> infact most distributions did
<micahg> knome: is that how it's set up?  to me engine sounds like core functionality, maybe I'm misunderstanding
<knome> micahg, maybe you are. madnick definitely knows more than me.
<madnick> micahg: its just a greeter, but i call it an engine because it allows external themeing :)
<micahg> madnick: oh, ok, just another greeter like unity-greeter
<madnick> yes
<micahg> ok, sorry, yeah, I guess that makes sense if the current greeters don't do what we want
<madnick> sorry for confusing you, it may not have been the best use of words to put "engine" in there
<micahg> madnick: so, this will be something other derivatives could use as well and we'll have our own theme for it?
<madnick> yes
<madnick> ubuntu studio showed some interest
<micahg> madnick: sounds cool, thanks for the clarification
<knome> micahg, i don't really want to do too much micromanaging - if madnick is building a theme, and he wants to build a greeter engine for it... he shall pursue it
<knome> yeah, we are collaborating actually pretty closely with studio
<micahg> knome: no, it's fine, I thought he was creating something that should be in core lightdm, but he's really just doing what the desktop team did and making a greeter, it's was a conflation in terminology, mostly on my part I think
<knome> micahg, heh, yeah. nope :)
<knome> micahg, no problem. good to have it cleared out
<knome> micahg, is there something else in the roadmap you want to ask about?
<micahg> knome: I"ll have to review it over the weekend, I've still got to get thunderbird out today
<knome> oki
<knome> do you have any insight to the derivative status thing?
<micahg> knome: well, I think we should definitely go for it, I think 3 yr, with a best effort attempt for high/critical bugs and security fixes sounds about right
<knome> micahg, the criteria is easy to fulfill?
<knome> micahg, or if not easy, at least possible?
<micahg> knome: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RecognizedDerivatives, most of this we were doing already, it's just making a firm commitment for images I think, the rest we decide
<knome> micahg, yeah, i have that page open. i was just making sure it is doable
<knome> micahg, i have to ask skaet about the lts cycle, like what does "support plan" mean, eg. does it need to be a complete report or something else
<micahg> knome: that's just how much effort we think we'll be putting into supporting the stable release
<knome> micahg, do you think the plans we've been thinking of would be sufficient?
<micahg> yes
<knome> micahg, with the shortest possible LTS cycle and so
<knome> mmh
<knome> who would be the support contact
<micahg> mr_pouit: any word yet on whether Debian will take 4.8 or 4.10 for wheezy?
<knome> wheezy? sounds like a humorous debian version
<micahg> knome: good question, do we have a bug triager?  mr_pouit and charlie-tca were handling this before
<micahg> knome: toystory :)
<knome> heh
<knome> hmm.
<knome> i suppose charlie-tca is the main bug triager
<knome> but does that suffice?
<knome> i mean, he probably can't fix any
<micahg> yeah, I think that's fine, it just needs to be someone the release team can poke for updates/discussion
<knome> okay
<knome> could you put up a really brief suggestion re: the regocnized stuff and lts stuff based on this discussion?
<micahg> where? xubuntu-devel?
<knome> we could vote on that on the next meeting, and we could start focusing working on precise rather than think about bureaucracy
<knome> that would be great
<micahg> ok, will add to my list of things to do
<knome> okay, thanks A LOT :)
<knome> if we keep the meeting on sunday, will you be able to attend?
<micahg> but we still need to coordinate for alpha1 if we want images :)
<micahg> yes
<knome> okay, i'll try to find out if i can make it too.
<micahg> please send out an announcement for the meeting though
<knome> and announce
<knome> yeah
<micahg> thanks
<knome> i'll mail xubuntu-devel
<knome> so what about alpha1?
<knome> tbh, i don't know much about bugs that should be fixed :)
<micahg> please add a note that w/out testers, we can't have an alpha 1 and we'll be organizing what's needed at the meeting
<knome> okay
<knome> i will
<micahg> well, hopefully not many :)
<knome> the topic says the testing starts at 2011-11-28
<knome> i think charlie is going to get back at around that time
<micahg> right, I was wondering if anyone is testing the daily ISOs ATM
<madnick> GridCube and me will probably, atleast test the images
<knome> micahg, should they be tested?
<madnick> I've not done that daily
<madnick> Because I didn't know that we were supposed to :\
<knome> me neither.
<micahg> well, I don't know that we've done alpha 1 releases before
<knome> we did
<micahg> The alternate CDs have an issue ATM, but the live CDs appear fine
<knome> right
<madnick> I was acctually told that testing begins december 1st :P
<knome> isn't the only criteria "it builds" :P
<knome> (for alpha1)
<knome> s.kaet told me that
<micahg> knome: used to be
<micahg> I don't think that's enough anymore, but I could be wronf
<micahg> *wrong
<micahg> I think we're in pretty good shape though since we haven't made any major changes
<knome> yeah.
<knome> unless the debian imports broke things
<knome> but if madnick has done any tests, it should be mostly okay i think
<madnick> No, I've hardly done any testing, just installed 3 images. When people have said stuff in #xubuntu :P
<madnick> Because charlie said: Testing begins Dec 1
<Sysi> do they need to be tested on real hardware or would vbox do?
<micahg> virtualbox is fine
<micahg> madnick: idk if charlie was planning on us releasing alpha1
<madnick> oh oka
<madnick> y
<micahg> but can whoever attends the release meeting please find out how much testing we need for alpha1
<madnick> sure
<Sysi> hum, I *could* test images directly on this macbookpro.. help for mactel-support team
#xubuntu-devel 2011-11-25
<micahg> knome: so, apparently, our alternate ISOs should be good today as well
<knome> micahg, yay! :)
#xubuntu-devel 2011-11-26
<ScottL> i just went through xubuntu-default- settings and xubuntu-artwork and i think i have a fairly complete and actionable plan for transitioning ubuntu studio to the xubuntu theme
<ScottL> (it took about 2 hours to do this)
<ochosi> ScottL: nice
#xubuntu-devel 2011-11-27
<GridCube> so when we should start testings?
<TVasEyes> hi,
<TVasEyes> probably not the right place to ask but I've tried xubuntu & xubuntu-offtopic already
<TVasEyes> need help with mount.cifs issue
<TVasEyes> getting error 13 when issuing command which works on a different Linux box
<TVasEyes> connecting to NAS
<TVasEyes> anyone able to help?
<holstein> connecting how?
<holstein> NM... i see you found someone
<TVasEyes> holstein: will converse on xubuntu channel or here?
<holstein> nah, if Unit193 cant help you, i cant
<holstein> i just didnt want to leave you hanging
<TVasEyes> holstein: thanks, appreciated.
<Unit193> Since when am I smarter? And dang, I had a few things to try...
<knome> micahg, is there any way to fight the white icons on light grey in tb except creating a new icon theme??
<knome> micahg, (or editing userchrome)
<knome> (that at least makes the text a bit more readable)
<astraljava> Is the meeting today or tomorrow?
<knome> no meeting has been announced
<knome> bah
<knome> i'm not sure i can make it tomorrrow
<astraljava> Oh okay, yeah I now recall the change in the schedules.
<knome> madnick, wb
<madnick> thanks!
<micahg> knome: yes, I have to report a bug to mozilla, they said they'd fix it
<micahg> knome: no meeting?  are we doing alpha 1?
 * madnick also wonders about meeting, but thinks its in 1Â½ hours?
<ochosi> so i guess we won't have a meeting in 5min?
 * madnick pokes knome 
<ochosi> :)
<ochosi> think he's not here
<madnick> I think he said, last time, that we would have a meeting today
<ochosi> hm, i thought he said he'd have friends over tonight
<madnick> Yes, he does
<madnick> But he said: "knomecan we just postpone to next week?" :P
<Unit193> [11:09:17] < knome> i'm not sure i can make it tomorrrow
<Unit193> Looks like he also had wrong day
<madnick> :P
<ochosi> we can also do some kind of informal meeting :)
<ochosi> what've you all been up to?
<ochosi> (knome will read the backlog anyway)
<madnick> yes
<madnick> i suppose that would be good
<ochosi> k, well madnick why don't you start with a quick update on your recent tasks (lightdm-settings-ui and greeter-theme)?
<madnick> Okay
<madnick> The greeter implements 90% of all functionallity available, the themeing library is also comming along nicely
<madnick> The settings UI, is ~done, that is, we need to discuss if people shall be able to change their pictures from the GUI
<madnick> As for the theme itself, it does everything that is currently handed out to me :P
<madnick> ..
<ochosi> :)
<ochosi> yeah, just a quick update from upstream-xfce
<ochosi> a user-settings UI is in the works
<ochosi> people will also be able to change their avatars there
<ochosi> so maybe better keep it there than in lightdm-settings
<ochosi> since it's global
<madnick> Will we get that in time?
<ochosi> good question
<ochosi> tbh i don't know
<ochosi> there is no ETA yet
<ochosi> but i don't think that it'd be a very complicated thing to do
<ochosi> so it's possible, but not sure
<madnick> It feels like it would be very good to keep it separated, but on the other hand, if people can't change it, except for manually, its not good
<ochosi> yes, i mean if you don't feel you're wasting your time implementing it now and possibly dropping it later...
<ochosi> (this is the wiki-page for all of you who are interested: http://wiki.xfce.org/design/xfce4-settings/useraccounts )
<madnick> That pretty much outdates the entire GUI, since it will have a setting for autologin
<madnick> Which was the main idea for the settings GUI
<ochosi> i'm not sure that setting will work for lightdm
<ochosi> depends on what the accountservice package can do
<ochosi> furthermore: a gui to change the lightdm-greeter-theme is still valuable in itself
<madnick> That is true
<ochosi> this is more meant as a simplified replacement of users-admin
<ochosi> without all the group-settings etc. that users-admin gives you
<ochosi> not even sure i'd ditch users-admin for it, since this is just simple and basic
 * micahg guesses there will be no xubuntu alpha 1
<ochosi> hm, why's that?
<ochosi> and: would we need it?
<micahg> since we're not planning
<micahg> well, would be nice
<ochosi> mhm
<ochosi> what would have to be done in terms of planning?
<madnick> Perhaps we could put that on the ML
<madnick> as urgent
<ochosi> yeah, not a bad idea
<micahg> we need people committing to test basically, I don't think charlie was planning for an alpha 1 which is why we're not ready for it
<ochosi> ok, so basically we need testers
<ochosi> where's GridCube?
<ochosi> anyone else here who can test?
<madnick> From what I understand, we are supposed to use a new testing software
<micahg> I brought this up last week and thought that a community meeting would be the best forum to discuss/plan for alpha1
<madnick> http://91.189.93.73/
<ochosi> mhm
<madnick> And I don't know how to use that
<micahg> that's the new ISO tracker
<madnick> Yes, but also for daily testing
<ochosi> micahg: do you know how it works?
<micahg> no, not really
<ochosi> hm, o
<ochosi> k
<ochosi> so i guess we need to fgure out how it works and find people who are willing to work with it
<micahg> seems like a lot to do in 3 days
<ochosi> yes, i guess so
<ochosi> but we can still give it a shot
<madnick> Would be nice to get a green light on what to do :P
<ochosi> would you be willing to write the message to the ML explaining the basics?
<ochosi> yeah, but i'm not sure knome would oppose this. i mean the only reason not to try is if we think our chances are too bad to even try
<ochosi> i'd say it's a bit up to you micahg 
<micahg> sorry, I have enough things to do this week already, I can try to fix bugs if they come up
<ochosi> ok, no problem
<ochosi> i'll talk to knome later when he's around again and we'll see whether we'll send out an email to the ML about this or just skip alpha1
<ochosi> micahg: about the thunderbird bug that knome mentioned earlier, how would you say our chances are that this gets fixed in time for precise?
<ochosi> (just to know whether we should prepare ugly workarounds)
<micahg> ochosi: pretty good, probably by alpha 2 if I get around to filing it :)
<ochosi> ok :)
<ochosi> sounds good
<ochosi> micahg: any other updates from your side?
<micahg> nope
<ochosi> mr_pouit: are you here? if yes, any updates from your side?
<ochosi> k, i guess that's a no :)
<ochosi> edii: any news on the menu-bookmark-editor?
<micahg> mr_pouit did a xfce4-timer-plugin merge :)
<ochosi> oh nice :)
<ochosi> btw, it would be nice if some of you could test the datetime-plugin from the shimmer ppa to see what you think about replacing the current panel-clock with it
<madnick> I'm sorry, I have to go for a while, it is urgent.
<ochosi> (it mainly contains a small patch to hide the border and resize-grip, other than that it's the same as in the ubuntu repos)
<ochosi> k, see you madnick 
<ochosi> pleia2: any updates on the next website sprint or the website in general?
<Unit193> ochosi: I think I can as I'm using it now (on Natty though)
<ochosi> Unit193: would you say it's a good replacement for the current implementation?
<Unit193> xfce4-datetime-plugin
<ochosi> yes
<Unit193> ochosi: I like it far better!
<ochosi> ok, good to know :)
<ochosi> have you seen how it'd look with greybird?
<Unit193> Only thing, when I click back to terminal, I'd like for it to close, not go under terminal
<ochosi> mhm
<Unit193> ochosi: I have not, but I suppose if I must ;)
<ochosi> best to file a bugreport about that upstream
<ochosi> Unit193: no you don't have to ;)
<ochosi> i just gave it a dark look
<ochosi> to look more like the indicators and other stuff that pops up from the panel
<Unit193> I'll check anyway, PPA link/name?
<ochosi> hmm, i'm afraid the package is only for oneiric... https://launchpad.net/~shimmerproject/+archive/ppa?field.series_filter=natty
<ochosi> theoretically you could download the package and just install it
<ochosi> don't think it'd break anything
<Unit193> Done that more times than I'd like to admit, but I try not to break things
<ochosi> https://launchpad.net/~shimmerproject/+archive/ppa
<ochosi> ok :)
<ochosi> well i can alternatively also show you a screenshot if you like
<Unit193> Well, I take it you can't build for natty? (I'm going to download the deb)
<ochosi> not really, mr_pouit built the package ;)
<Unit193> Awww... It removed my time :/
<Unit193> (Settings)
<ochosi> you mean it removed the settings?
<ochosi> right
<ochosi> sorry to hear..
<ochosi> i'm using this btw: %a %d %b %R
<Unit193> I had something close to that, have it on two computers (So I can get it back soon, use that for now)
<ochosi> ok
<Unit193> Anything else?
<ochosi> not from my side
<ochosi> btw, have you used the testing-site linked to earlier?
<Unit193> Looked at it once
<Unit193> Only issue, can't login :P
<knome> yeah, i think any kind of informal and even impromptu meetings are great, if you give any updates though, add them to the teamreports so we can forward them to ubuntu-release with madnick :)
<Sysi> would it be too late to discuss including pavucontrol to default installation? I could file some bugs with lacky pulseaudio control..
<knome> isn't that included in oneiric?
<knome> or is it again one of those things we planned, but nobody told lionel to add it to seeds?
<Sysi> I don't have it..
<knome> right
<knome> mr_pouit, !!
<micahg> no, we decided against it since it seemed to be not needed
<micahg> we already have the xfce4-mixer
<Sysi> no way to select sound output device which is basically reason to have pulseaudio in the first place
<knome> micahg, is pavucontrol big?
<micahg> Sysi: xfce4-mixer does that
<Sysi> micahg: oh, I should test it (more)
<Sysi> I think nobody at #xubuntu has ever mentioned it
<micahg> knome: by itself it's 150k, not sure about the libraries it uses though
<micahg> the only thing pavucontrol does that xfce4-mixer doesn't is to redirect audio streams which makes sense for Ubuntu Studio, but not us
<Sysi> I'd say this is good news, gotta check it out
<Sysi> ..if I can use two soundcards
<micahg> AFAIK, it should work
<knome> mmh
<micahg> but if not, let us know
<Sysi> just by selecting device in xfce4-mixer?
<knome> there seems to be problems with devices
<micahg> well, if we have test cases, let
<micahg> s get bugs filed, we're at the beginning of the cycle
<Sysi> I can only test till january and even now limitedly..
<Sysi> is ubuntu-bug good way to report bugs or is something more manual better?
<Sysi> I haven't checked out ubuntu-bug yet though
<micahg> ubuntu-bug is better
#xubuntu-devel 2012-11-19
<GridCube> maddernick, so i was thinking we should get that back
<GridCube> you know an onscreen keyboard for the login manager
<GridCube> how difficult is that?
<maddernick> i *think* the unity greeter now has that already?
<knome> GridCube, re: the lightdm theme, i think ochosi is working on it mostly for R
<ochosi> maddernick: no, the wallpaper-scaling isn't done yet. but it's targetted for R
<maddernick> GridCube: the issue was it was part of some gnome thing, the settings daemon
<maddernick> ochosi: okay, but that value can be read from conf right? Like in .xfce
<GridCube> mmmm but you remember that there was this pretty onscreen keyboard that was javascript? wouldnt that help?
<maddernick> GridCube: issue was getting different keyboard layouts
<maddernick> onboard already handles that
<ochosi> maddernick: no
<GridCube> true that, yes, i remember now
<GridCube> well, if i investigate further can we see if we can have it on 13.04?
<knome> GridCube, it's possible
<knome> GridCube, but no promises
<ochosi> (remember, we're short on image-space)
<GridCube> yes
<ochosi> i thought we have an onscreen-keyboard installed by default anyway?
<GridCube> yes, but it doesnt appear at the xubuntu-greeter for lightdm
<GridCube> you need a kb to log in
<ochosi> yeah, i'm not 100% sure but i think that ubuntu is using the same kb (called "onscreen") in lightdm as we install by default
<ochosi> so in this case it would mainly be a matter of adding support for it to our lightdm-greeter
<GridCube> mmhm
<GridCube> yes
<GridCube> thats what im asking for
<ochosi> in this case best talk to mr_pouit about it
<GridCube> ok :)
#xubuntu-devel 2012-11-21
<GridCube> mr_pouit, ping
<knome> GridCube, maybe just go ahead and ask away, i'm sure he'll answer when he's around :)
<GridCube> P: well, mr_pouit, i was told to ask you what would it be needed to add onscreen keyboard support for out lightdm theme
<elfy> knome_: thanks for clarifying that 
<knome_> np
<knome_> bbl
<mrpouit> GridCube: lightdm-gtk-greeter doesn't support that for the moment I think (it would probably need to add a new entry in the accessibility menu that launches onboard).
<GridCube> mmm ok, so, who should i bother about that?
<GridCube> :)
<mrpouit> Me. :P
<mrpouit> (there's already Bug #905809, but I haven't had time to look)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 905809 in LightDM GTK+ Greeter "PATCH lightdm-gtk-greeter on screen keyboard support" [Wishlist,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/905809
<knome> mrpouit, i wonder if you fixed the slow thunar launch already for R, can't remember ;]
<mrpouit> knome: no, it's only fixed with the latest thunar, won't be fixed otherwise
<knome> mrpouit, aha. will we have that in R?
<mrpouit> Possible, since nick had some plans to release 1.6 before xfce 4.12.
<knome> is cherry-picking that at all possible, even if there wasn't a new release?
<mrpouit> knome: not possible, it's solved by the sidebar rewrite. :)
<knome> :/
<knome> ok, let's try to get a new release then!
<knome> we should start our regular meetings soon
<pleia2> yeah
<GridCube> "regular"
<knome> regularly postponed/dismissed
<knome> :P
<GridCube> ahÃ¡!
<GridCube> :)
#xubuntu-devel 2012-11-24
<pleia2> added a couple FAQ to the draft, and browsing through the -users archive for more
<knome> sounds good
<knome> i didn't send the email to the ML about the roadmap
<knome> i honestly think i did
<knome> ...
<pleia2> no cookies for you
<knome> otoh, we have enough to work on anyway
<pleia2> any issues with the menu editor?
<knome> good ideas are ++, but if nobody outside the team is willing to work on them, then they are as meaningful as null
<knome> menu editor?
<knome> what kind of issues?
<knome> oh, for the FAQ
<pleia2> "any" :)
<pleia2> yes
<knome> well, it hasn't been perfect
<knome> i'm not sure what the exact problems are
<knome> it isn't always able to edit the menus correctly
<knome> and some people have had "even if i uncheck this, it is re-enabled automatically"
<pleia2> ok
<knome> but i'm not sure if it has more to do with the menu editor or permission problems
 * pleia2 nods
<knome> i'd want to say "it's not perfect, use menulibre", but i don't think that would be the best solution
<pleia2> yeah
<pleia2> is thunar still duplicating partitions for people?
<knome> yeah
<elfy> evening 
<knome> hey elf
<knome> y
<pleia2> how about "long time to start thunar"?
<knome> that too.
<pleia2> should that FAQ question just be copied from the last FAQ?
 * pleia2 thinks so
 * elfy would agree 
<knome> or just add the question and link to the old FAQ, so we don't need to maintain two versions of the question
<knome> ...if we decide to change the wording
<elfy> knome: will the dupe partition fixes move from proposed ?
<knome> most probably not
<knome> but you'd need to discuss it with mr_pouit 
<knome> R isn't LTS, and i don't want to use too much time fixing things in it
<knome> er, Q
<knome> :P
<elfy> so people need to enable proposed, update thunar and the desktop and then disable proposed if they want them 
<elfy> and don't want to keep proposed that is 
<knome> they're running a non-lts version anyway
<knome> for P... again, we'd need to talk with mr_pouit about it
<elfy> yea - it's just a really annoying issue lol  - if I could have done more than report it I would have lol 
<knome> i'm not sure what counts as something that can go to anything else than -proposed
<elfy> :)
<knome> and i don't know if there's other possible implications
<elfy> anyway - I'll let you two chat about the faq 
<knome> "let"? i have to!
 * knome hides
 * pleia2 slave driver
<elfy> :)
<knome> hahah
<elfy> I would help but I've got a bone in my leg
<knome> elfy, hmm... i have some too
<elfy> lol - took my kids ages to realise that ... used it as an excuse not to do things for ages
<elfy> biab
<knome> heh
<knome> we're not your kids ;)
<elfy> oh good 
<elfy> I'd be almost 90 ... 
<pleia2> hahaha
<pleia2> bah, my mother turns 52 this year :)
<elfy> my kids dad turns 50 next 
<pleia2> where is the make windows not go tiling option
<pleia2> ah, tweaks
<pleia2> ok, I'm on my way out the door now, I've added some, fixed up some - knome can you have a look and see if we can get it closer to the finish line? :)
<knome> pleia2, i'll do that
<GridCube> pleia2, common questions seem to be: duplicated disks on desktop, and alacarte doesnt work
<knome> GridCube, that's what she added
<GridCube> oh havent read sorry
<GridCube> pleia2, question 9 its the same as question 1 for 12.04 faq
<GridCube> also number 2 its 8
<GridCube> people is already encouraged to check previous faqs
<GridCube> no need to repeat questions
<knome> GridCube, did you read the backlog?
<GridCube> just did
<GridCube> thats why im telling that last two comments
<GridCube> no need to repeat ourselfs
<pleia2> GridCube: I figured they were important faq so it didn't hurt to repeat them
<GridCube> okay
<pleia2> we're trying to be helpful :) not make people go back and read things when they can't find an answer
<pleia2> (plus it reduces burden on support)
<knome> though i personally think a link would do
<GridCube> i think that too
<GridCube> but redundancy its good sometimes
<knome> under the question, just tell "go read Qn from X"
 * pleia2 nods
<pleia2> that would do
 * pleia2 off to take cat to vet \o/
<knome> that way we'll avoid having to maintain several posts if/when we want/need to change the wording
<knome> oh, i missed the last comment
<knome> wondering where everybody went
<knome> :P
 * bluesabre is hiding
 * knome hides from bluesabre 
<knome> installing menulibre to test it now
<knome> bluesabre, btw, if you want more testing for menulibre now, be in touch with elfy and he'll do the work calling for testers
<knome> s/installing/upgrading/ :)
<knome> bluesabre, can confirm #1072133 is fixed
<knome> bug 1072133, stupid ubottu (:
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1072133 in MenuLibre "Menulibre has no icon in quantal quetzal" [Critical,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1072133
<knome> bluesabre, can't see anything failing re: bug 1040027
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1040027 in MenuLibre "Menulibre can't find some apps" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1040027
<knome> bluesabre, and can't really test the rest [
<knome> [:
<adnan> heya
<knome> hello adnan 
<bluesabre> thanks knome!
<knome> np
<knome> just let me know if i can help with testing on Q
<bluesabre> Sure thing.  Pretty sure it should be good now, except it seems some icons aren't showing up for ochosi
<knome> augh.
<knome> maybe it has something to do with OnlyShowIn, and wrong WM in the config?
<bluesabre> shouldn't matter with how I wrote the program
<knome> ok
<knome> just throwing in ideas
<bluesabre> but, maybe ochosi can find the source of the bug on his setup?
<bluesabre> :)
<knome> anyway, menulibre still looks great
<knome> adnan, so, #xubuntu-offtopic is not worthy enough anymore? ;)
<adnan> my bad
<adnan> gotta setup autojoin
<mr_pouit> pleia2: note that fixes for thunar, xfdesktop4 (dup partitions) and alacarte (wrong menu file chosen) are in quantal-proposed.
<mr_pouit> I've no control over that, they have the 'verification-done' tag, so they should be moved soon to quantal-updates
<knome> oh, so we're doing that well
<knome> i'm so off the track for FOSS right now
<knome> tbe, i'm off the track for most things now
<pleia2> mr_pouit: oh good, I'll be sure to include a note about all of them (currently I just wrote that fix for thunar is in -proposed)
<Unit193> Can anyone see if it's just me with xfdesktop and a memleak?  After a few days, it'll creep up to 17% ram usage in a 2G computer.
<pleia2> no issue here, and I never reboot
<pleia2> 12.10
<Unit193> Alright, if that's the case I'll ignore it and just have cron kill it every morning. :P  (Have to love autorespawn)
<mr_pouit> added thunar 1.5.3 to the 4.12 ppa.
#xubuntu-devel 2012-11-25
<ahoneybun> hello people!
<ochosi> knome: about converting our icon-theme to png...
<ochosi> i did another test with the script and saw that the svgs don't get cleaned up after the conversion
<ochosi> so i removed them now and that gave me a more realistic impression of how much the icon theme would become larger... :)
<ochosi> 25mb => 30mb
<knome> mmh.
<knome> i'm not sure if we can afford even that but..
<adnan> did you use any compression with them pngs
<ochosi> yup
<adnan> thoughts about shipping with the script
<knome> optipng and advpng ?
<adnan> so the pngs are generated directly on userpc?
<adnan> space/speed tradeoff
<ochosi> adnan: that's not very failsafe i guess
<adnan> indeed it is not
<ochosi> knome: i haven't looked into nick's script yet, but he mentioned that optipng -v9 didn't make any diff
<adnan> hmm
<knome> ochosi, it's possible
<ochosi> and i dunno about advpng
<ochosi> haven
<ochosi> 't ever seen that
<ochosi> but i can send you the script
<knome> sure
<adnan> ochosi, what sizes are you generating?
<knome> ochosi, gnome-sudoku lacks "track" icon
<ochosi> adnan: what do you mean?
<adnan> icon sizes, 24x24, 32x32 and so on?
<ochosi> with generating you mean "convert to png"?
<adnan> yeah
<adnan> :)
<ochosi> aha
<ochosi> all sizes
<ochosi> knome: where in the UI would i find that icon?
<adnan> is it possible to save space by using svg for sizes from 64x onwards
<adnan> or we have to use pngs for all sizes for consistency
<knome> ochosi, icon or place where it should be?
<knome> ochosi, the button is in the toolbar, right to all the other buttons
<knome> ochosi, when you press it, a sidebar opens with tracks
<ochosi> oh
<ochosi> any idea what that icon looks like in gnome?
<knome> i believe that's a missing icon and not a bug in gnome-sudoku
<knome> but what do i know
<knome> nope. i'd imagine something close to the footstep marks
<ochosi> yeah, i guess it's a missing icon
<ochosi> that's what i'd _imagine_ as well, but it might be good to know what it really looks like =)
<adnan> I wonder if the bug is implicitly fixed in the latest trunk version
<knome> maybe you should look in gnome then ;)
<ochosi> me?
<ochosi> :)
<knome> somebody
<ochosi> ok, now that i've seen what the tracking thingy does, i guess the shoes would be fine
<adnan> tango
<adnan> :D
<ochosi> knome: advpng doesn't work for me at all
<ochosi> maybe if it works for you, could you try it?
<ochosi> whatever i do, i always end up getting: No command specified [at void process(int, char**):repng.cc:476]
<ochosi> e.g. after advpng -4 *
<ochosi> anyway, g2g
<maddernick> whats the * supoosed to do?
<maddernick> -4 is shrink-insane
<maddernick> not sure "*" is "all files"
<knome> ochosi, i'd try advpng -z -4 *.png
<mr_pouit> use optipng -o4 -preserve and advpng -z4, at least they are safe
<knome> "safe" :>
<mr_pouit> (it's run on all pngs when a package is built for ubuntu)
<knome> does that make them safe? ;>
<ochosi> ok, i'll try it later, when i'm home again
#xubuntu-devel 2013-11-18
<ochosi> brainwash: the screen-blanking happens only on the lock-event and was specifically added to provide screensaver-like functionality. we'll see whether we can do a dpms-off call instead of the blanking, that'd leave the monitor switched off (as happens during the VT switch), resulting in "lock > blank > dpms off" instead of the current "lock > blank > dpms off > blank"
<ochosi> pleia2, knome: we could work around the slow submission page in the wiki by moving the "accepted submissions" to a separate page, what do you think?
<knome> ochosi, if you think that's needed
<ochosi> (accepted submissions being those that 1) don't violate our guidelines and 2) have all the necessary information, incl. license)
<ochosi> not sure, it's just a pain to use atm
<knome> the worst thing is seeing which attachments are not linked
<knome> (that's relatively quick from the wiki's side)
<knome> otherwise i don't see a problem
<knome> (except that maybe we would like to organize the photos differently when we are deciding about them)
<ochosi> ok, let's wait whether submissions stop flowing in
<knome> if they don't, well, then it's probably not too awful to submit stuff to the wiki :)
<ochosi> yeah, but it also gets increasingly annoying to check the new submissions with a bad connection like mine...
<knome> well the "problem" is not actually in the wiki
<knome> it's because people upload 5MB images, then the wikimarkup jus stretches them to 250px wide images
<knome> if you want to help making the submissions page faster, we should simply tell people to upload a 250px wide preview-image
<knome> (and possibly the original file, but not link that; or, upload the original file to another wikipage or service)
<slickymaster> good morning all
<knome> morning slickymaster 
<ochosi> morning slickymaster 
<ochosi> knome: not sure, sounds quite elaborate
<slickymaster> ochosi, knome, morning
<slickymaster> knome: not sure if we did saw this http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2013/11/15/%23xubuntu-devel.html#t14:53
<slickymaster> if you ^Âª^
<knome> i did
<slickymaster> elfy, did you by any chance tried to install today's daily build? I got this https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubiquity/+bug/1252205
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1252205 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "Ubiquity crash on Xubuntu Desktop i386 install entire disk" [Undecided,New]
<slickymaster> knome, any ideas?
<knome> slickymaster, sounds like a possible ubiquity problem
<knome> eg. not a xubuntu-specific one
<slickymaster> knome: yeah, that I know, but I was asking regarding https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xubuntu-docs/+bug/1251332,
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1251332 in xubuntu-docs (Ubuntu) "Use of gksudo in Chapter 7. Printing and Scanning" [Undecided,New]
<knome> aha :)
<knome> umm,
<slickymaster> knome: :)
<knome> ask balloons what he thinks
<slickymaster> okie dokie, I'll do it
<knome> ta
<knome> i'll follow up if needed
<slickymaster> knome: I'll report you any away
<knome> bbl
<brainwash> will the xfce packages get updated/synced soon in trusty?
<brainwash> the 4.12 PPA does not offer packages for trusty yet
<ochosi> hi micahg_mobile :)
<micahg_mobile> Hi, i hope my crazy work schedule is done for the time being so i can get back to Xubuntu 
<brainwash> ochosi: so the blanking change does reduce the amount of flicker/screen backlight weirdness on your system?
<ochosi> micahg_mobile: that sounds nice!
<ochosi> brainwash: yeah, well it's as i described before > blank > dpms off > blank
<ochosi> it's hard to imagine that a single X call would slow down the switching to the greeter noticeably
<brainwash> dpms off ?
<ochosi> dpms is the power-management of the screen
<ochosi> means, not just blank, but switched off
<brainwash> I know that
<brainwash> but why?
<ochosi> the dpms off happens during the VT switch
<ochosi> it's out of our hands
<brainwash> oh
<ochosi> ok, so explaining again: screensaver-timeout > blank screen (3s or so) > dpms off (VT switch 1sec) > blank screen (until the user touches mouse or keyboard)
<brainwash> so the screen should be blank after screen lock?
<ochosi> yeah
<ochosi> as with xscreensaver
<brainwash> o.o
<ochosi> or any screensaver
<brainwash> not here, I lock the screen manually and the greeter is visible
<ochosi> are you using the latest revision of the greeter?
<ochosi> or the daily PPA
<brainwash> Installed: 1.6.1+146+97~ubuntu13.10.1
<ochosi> should work with that one
<ochosi> (i'm still on 1.6.1+145, but the last commit was for the language menu)
<ochosi> and you lcok with "light-locker-command -l"?
<brainwash> yes
<ochosi> what version of light-locker?
<brainwash> Installed: 1.0.0+2111+4~ubuntu13.10.1
<ochosi> ok, you're testing on saucy though, not trusty right?
<ochosi> cause so far i've only tested saucy
<brainwash> saucy
<ochosi> strange strange
<ochosi> should work
<brainwash> it's the intel based system
<ochosi> no wonder you didn't notice an improvement then...
<ochosi> well the code isn't very graphic card specific
<ochosi> it's a general X call
<ochosi> or xlib to be exact
<brainwash> so it most likely blanks the screen and unblanks it immediately 
<ochosi> what does "xset q" tell you about the screen saver?
<brainwash> http://lpaste.net/95860
<ochosi> (oh, and i assume you don't use any weird lightdm-version, right?)
<ochosi> could you try this:
<ochosi> xset s 600
<ochosi> and then lock the screen
<ochosi> i guess if blanking is completely disabled forcing the screensaver might not work
<brainwash> negative, the strange thing is that locking the screen blocks keyboard shortcuts in vt7
<brainwash> when I return back
<brainwash> might be related
<ochosi> yeah, that seems fishy
<ochosi> but i wouldn't know what it's related to tbh
<brainwash> I'll test it on my trusty test system too, not sure if the screen blanks on this system or not
<brainwash> most likely it does not either
<brainwash> the pc is currently in use :/
<ochosi> did you check again after doing xset s 600 with xset q to see whether blanking is now enabled?
<brainwash> yes, no change
<ochosi> that's weird
<ochosi> then obviously the whole test didn't do anything
<brainwash> we need 1-2 more testers :)
<ochosi> as long as blanking is disabled, i wouldn't expect it to work
<ochosi> well we simply need to switch on blanking for you
<ochosi> then it should work
<brainwash> xset s 2 blanks the screen after 2 sec
<ochosi> ok
<ochosi> then light-locker should automatically take you to the lock-screen
<ochosi> unless you edited the desktop file or the update didn't change it for some reason
<brainwash> I mean it blanks the current x session after 2 sec, not the new one created by light-locker
<brainwash> I'm still a bit confused, maybe I'll understand the problem after doing some more testing
<ochosi> and xset q tells you that the blanking-value is changed too?
<brainwash> timeout:  600    cycle:  0
<brainwash> but this does not affect vt8, right?
<ochosi> ah, hm, that's probably true
<ochosi> i guess we have to find out how to set this value so that it gets remembered
<ochosi> for all x sessions
<ochosi> probably with sudo, but i'm not sure
<brainwash> via lightdm maybe?
<ochosi> no, lightdm respects the global default values for X afaik
<brainwash> yes, I mean an interface to change them via lightdm
<ochosi> ah, hm, not sure
<ochosi> anyway, i'll have to investigate this later or tomorrow
<ochosi> my first instinct would be to run xset with sudo and then restart and see whether the values stuck
<ochosi> (normal xset isn't remembered)
<ochosi> if you have a custom xorg.conf, check that for configuration
<brainwash> ochosi: same for my trusty/AMD system, the screen unblanks immediately and reveals the greeter
<slickymaster> knome: ping
<slickymaster> bbl
<brainwash> ochosi: ok, found the culprit
<brainwash> ochosi: the issue is related to bug 1251431
<ubottu> bug 1251431 in LightDM GTK+ Greeter "user background gets painted over background specified in config file" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1251431
<brainwash> the background gets set twice, and the screen is forced to blank twice also, maybe there is something wrong a hint or flag
<brainwash> setting the background another time might also reset the state
<brainwash> (calling the root surface function)
<ochosi> brainwash: tbh i don't think that's related
<ochosi> bbl
<brainwash> ochosi: works for me
<brainwash> if only the background specified in the conf file gets displayed or the user one
<brainwash> but calling the root surface function twice unblanks the screen
<brainwash> ochosi: btw can you triage the linked lp report please?
<knome> lderan, or, we should rather discuss that here :)
<lderan> sounds good to me
<knome> lderan, aha, so basically: the vote results are shown newest-first in the wiki output
<knome> would make more sense if they were chronological top-down
<lderan> sounds easy enough to do
<knome> yep
<knome> just a small thing i didn't notice until we had loads of votes in the last meeting :)
<lderan> :P
<knome> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings/Archive/Minutes/2013-11-14 for a real life example
<lderan> okay, just need to reverse the items. shall do so now
<lderan> shall also make a commit and poke the alan some more with the new changes
<knome> :)
<knome> ta
<lderan> no problemo
#xubuntu-devel 2013-11-19
<slickymaster> good morning all
<ochosi> morning
<slickymaster> morning ochosi. Good to have you here because I noticed that there's a correction that has to be made to the formatting of http://docs.xfce.org/apps/parole/usage
<slickymaster> ochosi: right now the audio section isn't formatted as a title, it's in the continuation of the last paragraph of the DVD section
<ochosi> brainwash: i know that currently the screen gets blanked twice, it even gets blanked twice on every display. kinda busy atm so i don't know when i'll really get to looking at the background-setting you mentioned ...
<ochosi> slickymaster: thanks, good catch! fixed
<slickymaster> ochosi: ^^^^
<slickymaster> ochosi: np
<slickymaster> knome: ping
<ochosi> slickymaster: i just realised now, but we'll have to add a "playback" section to the keyboard shortcuts
<ochosi> "Right arrow" > skip ahead 10secs
<ochosi> etc
<slickymaster> ochosi: you mean another table named playback to that section?
<ochosi> yeah, i'm currently working on it
<ochosi> thought i'd just quickly chuck it in, it's rather easy to do
<slickymaster> ochosi, if you feel like there's already plenty in your hands to deal with, I'll be glad to do it for you
<ochosi> slickymaster: actually, yeah, if you can/want... :)
<ochosi> i'll have to link you to the section of parole's code though that explains that
<slickymaster> ochosi: No worries, I'll do it
<slickymaster>  I would appreciate the link
<ochosi> they start here: http://git.xfce.org/apps/parole/tree/src/parole-player.c#n2441
<ochosi> and: seek_short = 10, seek_medium = 60, seek_long = 600
<ochosi> (seconds)
<ochosi> as you can see there are more shortcuts that aren't in the docs right now
<ochosi> (f for fullscreen)
<ochosi> (p for playpause)
<slickymaster> ochosi: I'll add those to the already existing tables
<slickymaster> ochosi: I'll need just another thing though, the link to bluesabre's dokuwiki. I've lost it :(
<ochosi> hehe, no worries
<ochosi> slickymaster: http://smdavis.us/doku/doku.php?id=usage&#keyboard_shortcuts
<slickymaster> ochosi: thks
<brainwash> ochosi: mmh, simply move the first set_background call and use it as fallback if there is no user background set via accountsservice?
<brainwash> ochosi: well, currently I simply commented the first call :D
<brainwash> out
<brainwash> but you will have to fix this, because it does cause the strange unblank behavior on two different systems
<brainwash> bug report required?
<brainwash> looks familiar -> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2188790
<knome> slickymaster, pong
<slickymaster> knome, good morning
<knome> g'day
<ochosi> brainwash: ok, i'll try to check it a bit later today then ;)
<slickymaster> so I've speak with balloons regarding https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xubuntu-docs/+bug/1251332 and his opinion is that he should go with 
<slickymaster> sudo -i to get to a root prompt and there launch whatever graphical application
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1251332 in xubuntu-docs (Ubuntu) "Use of gksudo in Chapter 7. Printing and Scanning" [Undecided,New]
<slickymaster> knome: so, if there's no objections from you I'll go ahead with that to re-write the documentation
<knome> slickymaster, ok
<slickymaster> knome: I'll do it then and later on I'll propose a merge
<knome> slickymaster, ok, thanks
<slickymaster> knome: np
<ochosi> brainwash: wanna show me the patch that worked for you?
<brainwash> ochosi: there is none yet, I simply commented out the first set_background call
<ochosi> that one was actually added to help with nouveau drivers when setting the background...
<brainwash> that's obviously not the best solution
<ochosi> it's a bit of a tricky situation, not everything seems to work with all drivers
<brainwash> I mean the part in the main function
<brainwash> to set the background which is specified in the config file
<ochosi> which is why i'm a bit hesitant to touch this stuff, i only have one laptop to test things on
<brainwash> well, create an extra branch :)
<brainwash> I can test it
<ochosi> hmpf yeah, all rather time-consuming and much tapping in the dark
<ali1234> what's this bug about backgrounds?
<ochosi> ali1234: well it's an issue in lightdm-gtk-greeter
<ali1234> lightdm always faded nicely from the default background to the user specified one for me
<ali1234> i thought it was supposed to do that
<ochosi> what greeter are you using?
<ochosi> i guess unity-greeter, right?
<ali1234> yeah
<ochosi> (lightdm-gtk-greeter doesn't fade)
<ali1234> what's the difference?
<ali1234> i thought unity used lightdm
<ochosi> lightdm is the display server
<ochosi> the rest are greeters
<ali1234> so the greeter is like a modular component?
<ochosi> yeah
<ali1234> ok, got it
<ochosi> the visual component
<ochosi> so the lightdm-gtk-greeter was written by ligthdm's author as a reference greeter
<ali1234> so who else uses the gtk one?
<ochosi> bluesabre and me picked it up and started improving it bit by bit
<ochosi> lubuntu i think
<ochosi> and maybe even distros outside ubuntu
<ochosi> (i think lunar linux, not sure anymore)
<ali1234> any reason why we don't use unity-greeter?
<ali1234> it's pretty nice...
<ochosi> well, firstly it depends on indicators
<ochosi> which we couldn't use for ages now
<ochosi> basically since they were ported to gtk3
<knome> i think -gtk-greeter fits better with our style anyway, at least now that we've worked with it
<ochosi> the other thing is that the gtk-greeter is a component we control, so we can also introduce changes that make sense for xubuntu
<ochosi> e.g. introducing screen-blanking in case it's used as a lockscreen would be somewhat harder to get into unity-greeter
<ali1234> random: if the greeter can read the user's background, can it also read their theme?
<ochosi> it can read whatever accountsservice allows
<ali1234> accountsservice documentation isn't online except in source form
<ochosi> yeah, it's indeed not very well documented (it's been a while since i dealt with it)
<ali1234> and the package doesn't include the built docs
<ochosi> oh, and the user-wallpaper isn't in accountsservice upstream
<ali1234> so pretty much no chance then
<ochosi> that's an ubuntu-specific patch that never made it upstream (for whatever reason
<ochosi> )
<ali1234> so anyway... if we can't fix the double background bug, how about implementing the fade/transition instead?
<brainwash> why can't we fix it? o.o
<ali1234> well, it sounds like the code is a bit fragile with all different drivers
<brainwash> so we should disable the accountsservice part?
<ochosi> i'm not sure why we should disable the accountsservice part
<ochosi> it's not fragile at all
<ali1234> fix it then :)
<ochosi> yeah, i said i'll try to do so once i have more time
<ochosi> and testing resources are quite limited for me also
<ochosi> i already added a patch recently that should improve things, but it seems it doesn't work for everybody
<brainwash> I can write a patch (the way I like it to be fixed)
<ochosi> sure, go ahead
<ochosi> we can do it in a branch and try to get some testing
<ochosi> i'm all for fixing things
<ochosi> ali1234: fwiw, transitions and fades tend to produce lots of code. be my guest if you wanna submit a patch ;) (you could even use parts of thunar-desktop i guess)
<ali1234> is this thing really only 2000 lines of C code?
<ochosi> hehe
<ochosi> well personally i think if we wanna do fancy stuff like that, we should switch to the html engine
<ochosi> or even just fork unity-greeter and make it behave/look the way we want...
<ali1234> so every time you change the user selection it changes the background too
<ochosi> yup
<ali1234> making it do a fade would probably add like 5 lines of code
<ochosi> i'm totally happy to test and merge patches ;)
<ali1234> i am confused what this is supposed to achieve: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~lightdm-gtk-greeter-team/lightdm-gtk-greeter/trunk/view/head:/src/lightdm-gtk-greeter.c#L1310
<ochosi> what do you mean specifically?
<ali1234> the if(!matched) part
<ochosi> (just as a note in advance: as i mentioned before, we're not the authors of the greeter, we're just maintaining it as it was dropped by robert_ancell a longer while ago)
<ali1234> if you type a wrong username, it uses the first user's background?
<ochosi> well
<ochosi> the thing is: in xubuntu we use the user-list (in e.g. debian they don't they use the user-entry)
<ochosi> with the user-list, you could only type a wrong username when using "other"
<ochosi> as a few of the last patches by our debian maintainer have shown, we didn't really take care of the user-entry enough
<ali1234> actually, i understand it
<ochosi> oh, ok
<ali1234> it's the initially selected user
<ali1234> what if there are no users though?
<ali1234> something to test: install in a vm, usermod your UID to <1000, see if greeter crashes
<ali1234> is there some kind of testing harness for this?
<ali1234> "lightdm --test-mode --debug" apparently
<ali1234> indeed, it shows the bug
<ochosi> hm
<ali1234> so where do you maintain it if upstream dropped it?
<ochosi> in the same place, bzr
<ochosi> (i meant launchpad)
<ali1234> ok
<ochosi> lp:lightdm-gtk-greeter
<ali1234> what do all the files in /etc/lightdm/*.conf do?
<ochosi> you can use them to select the greeter / configure lightdm / configure the greeter/s
<ali1234> so how do i make it load ~/Source/lightdm-gtk-greeter/src/lightdm-gtk-greeter
<ochosi> so e.g. in /etc/lightdm/lightdm.conf you can select the greeter
<ochosi> did you install the greeter?
<ochosi> or what setting do you want to change specifically?
<ali1234> i want to use the greeter i just built without installing it
<ali1234> ah... it needs a .desktop file specially named
<ali1234> hmm that's interesting
<ali1234> it looks very different with default settings
<ochosi> yeah
<ochosi> it does
<ochosi> lack of icon-theme, gtk-theme etc are the usual issues
<ochosi> i considered providing a good fallback gtk-theme
<ali1234> it looks ok
<ochosi> yeah, could be better though
<ali1234> just different
<ochosi> and also some fallback icons, to be sure
<ochosi> otoh so far no-one has complained about it ;)
<ali1234> to be honest i think i prefer the defaults to the way xubuntu configures it
<ochosi> fine by me
<ochosi> we considered letting greeter-themes even change the UI file
<ochosi> in general, it wouldn't be hard to ship multiple configuration files and let the user choose
<ali1234> so why does it look different even after make install?
<ochosi> because the xubuntu config file isn't in the bzr repo
<ali1234> but it is still in my filesystem
<ochosi> not sure i get it
<ochosi> if you install the greeter, it overwrites the lightdm-gtk-greeter.conf file
<ochosi> as in: the one that was shipped with xubuntu-default-settings
<ali1234> it didn't
<ochosi> then you didn't add prefix=/usr maybe?
<ali1234> /etc/lightdm/lightdm-gtk-greeter.conf is unchanged
<ochosi> maybe wrong prefix, it should change that file
<ali1234> oh i see
<ali1234> so it's really reading the config from somewhere completely different because i built it with the wrong prefix
<ochosi> yeah, i'd say so
<ali1234> yeah, fixed
<ochosi> good
<skellat> I'm going to have to look at LP Bug 1252800 later today
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1252800 in xubuntu-docs (Ubuntu) "/usr/share/xubuntu-docs/about/xubuntu-index.html packed in Trusty Daily still refers to Xubuntu 13.10" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1252800
<knome> skellat, new doc package isn't uploaded to trusty yet.
<slickymaster> knome: I'm not 100% sure, but apparently no
<ali1234> ok, so what exactly is so terrible about simply not making the first call to draw the background?
<ali1234> if it fixes some driver bug, what about if we draw a black background here instead
<ali1234> and then draw the user or default background later
<ochosi> tbh i think the call didn't really help with nouveau
<ochosi> so i think we can also look into restructuring that
<ali1234> i can't see a reason why just skipping that draw will hurt anything
<ali1234> but drivers are weird so who knows
<ochosi> yeah, they are...
<ochosi> well i'd suggest we work in a branch and then do testing with all drivers we can
<ochosi> it's important though to keep in mind that the greeter shall not fail
<ochosi> it's too important
<ali1234> well the easiest way to guarantee that is to not functionally change it
<ali1234> ie by drawing a black pixmap on that first call, and only the first call
<ochosi> which is what bluesabre and me have done mostly
<ochosi> i can also imagine doing functional changes, as long as there's someone at work who feels confident with that (i don't)
<ali1234> @2000 lines of code there's a limit to how many bugs there can possibly be
<meetingology> ali1234: Error: "2000" is not a valid command.
<ochosi> indeed
<ochosi> depending though on what kind of other stuff you involve
<ochosi> many of our bugs have been lightdm bugs
<elfy> hi sergiobenrocha2 
<elfy> knome: sergiobenrocha2 is looking to get more involved with us :) 
<knome> hey sergiobenrocha2 
<elfy> I've been moving him about freenode ... we've come here now 
<knome> welcome
<Unit193> Hah.
<Unit193> Welcome to another channel!
<elfy> quick line from another channel - which sums it up 
<knome> why didn't i get that tour?
<elfy> <sergiobenrocha2> elfy: ok, is possible that I create an wishlist in launchpad, and appears in this page, if the feature is good?
<elfy> knome: please join #ubuntu+1
<elfy> then when you've done that - can you come here :p
<knome> lol
<sergiobenrocha2> thanks everyone
<knome> done
<elfy> :)
<knome> *that* was all of freenode?
<elfy> no - just the bits I dragged sergiobenrocha2 around to 
<elfy> he started in #xubuntu 
<knome> sergiobenrocha2, we basically just finished creating roadmap
<knome> sergiobenrocha2, was there something specific you had in your mind for the wishlist?
<sergiobenrocha2> humm, yes, a thing or 2... or more
<sergiobenrocha2> to make xubuntu more friendly
<knome> would you like to share them with us here or want to keep secrets?
<elfy> :)
<sergiobenrocha2> haha
<sergiobenrocha2> so:
<sergiobenrocha2> 1 - create launchers in panel would be more friendly in right-click, it is better to pop-up a configuration window that create a complete launcher, and not only an empty gray icon
<knome> sergiobenrocha2, did you know you can drag-and-drop launchers from the menu to the panl?
<knome> *panel too
<sergiobenrocha2> sorry for english... portuguese is my language
<Unit193> Translator standing there ^ ;)
<sergiobenrocha2> knome: but it possible to drag-and-drop from whiskermenu? I'm using it
 * knome shrugs
<knome> i don't use a menu at all, so i don't know
<knome> maybe somebody who uses whiskermenu knows
<knome> possibly
<knome> maybe you should try. :)
<sergiobenrocha2> I can drag-and-drop only favorites apps from whiskermenu, like terminal and thunar. Others, in sub-categories, it not possible
<knome> you should file a wishlist bug against whiskermenu for that
<knome> because it works with the regular xfce menu
<sergiobenrocha2> ok
<sergiobenrocha2> but whiskermenu is from ppa, how can ubuntu-bug will report that?
<knome> i don't think it can... you have to report manually
<elfy> do it manually - if you can 
<knome> https://github.com/gottcode/xfce4-whiskermenu-plugin/issues?labels=bug&state=open
<knome> file a new issue.
<sergiobenrocha2> humm, ok
<knome> probably tag it with "feature"
<ali1234> ochosi: as usual, when i start looking closely at some code, i start to notice it's kinda funky
<ali1234> i have a feeling this thing leaks a display-sized xlib surface every time it changes the background
<ali1234> the set_background code also does a bunch of surface setup, before which things may not work properly
<sergiobenrocha2> I created the issue
<sergiobenrocha2> but I can not see, if i click in "Issues" tab
<sergiobenrocha2> it's the number 37
<sergiobenrocha2> oh, ok, not worry
<ali1234> confirmed, lightdm-gtk-greeter leaks memory like crazy.
<brainwash> ali1234: surprise? :)
<ali1234> never :(
<brainwash> so you plan to fix the background part?
<ali1234> i'm not sure i want to touch this code
<ali1234> all this background stuff is related
<ali1234> the only easy fix is to replace that first sat_background() with something like clear_background() which will just clear it to black but otherwise do the exact same as set_background
<ali1234> ie all the memory leaking and stuff
<ali1234> the alternative is to rewrite it so that allocation and drawing are separate
<ali1234> this would fix both problems
<ali1234> but it's a quite big refactoring
<brainwash> allocation of the background image?
<ali1234> and i'm not sure if i really care for something i see for 10 seconds twice a month
<ali1234> so, when the greeter starts up it makes a pixmap which is the background
<ali1234> actually, set_background() does this
<ali1234> it creates a xlib pixmap, then draws the background into it with cairo
<ali1234> but the problem is that the next time you call it, it makes another new pixmap and does not free the old one
<brainwash> yes, but the greeter does it twice, if accountsservice provides an user background
<sergiobenrocha2> I accidentally created a duplicate, but I changed it to an another issue, it is Issue #37. Can someone take the duplicate label?
<ali1234> yes, it does it every time you select a different user from the list
<brainwash> right
<ali1234> if you sit and click different users you can make it leak hundreds of mb if you are patient
<brainwash> no one does that
<knome> ali1234, we would be grateful if you fixed that
<ali1234> brainwash: could be a security vuln, i dunno...
<ali1234> who knows what happens if the display is locked and you crash lightdm...
<ali1234> anyway the thing is, it has to allocate and leave allocated that pixmap
<ali1234> it might even be necessary that the pixmap exists before you start doing gtk stuff
<brainwash> the background won't change if the screen is locked via greeter
<ali1234> this might be the nouveau bug that was mentioned
<ali1234> so this means you can't just defer drawing the background, because it also *creates* the background
<brainwash> I simply want this bug to be fixed -> bug 1251431
<ubottu> bug 1251431 in LightDM GTK+ Greeter "user background gets painted over background specified in config file" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1251431
<brainwash> this also fixes the light-locker issue for me
<ali1234> what does?
<brainwash> ochosi made a change, so that light-locker blanks the screen after locking it
<brainwash> it only works for me, if the background is set only once
<ali1234> right yeah, that makes sense
<ali1234> you know what i said about those pixmaps getting leaked?
<brainwash> uhm, it's bad
<ali1234> well, i bet the patch he made expects there to be only one
<ali1234> so it hides the top one
<ali1234> but there's still a stack of leaked ones behind it
<ali1234> so to fix *that*
<ali1234> requires the "proper" (but harder) fix of refactoring this thing
<brainwash> I mean this here "XForceScreenSaver(display,ScreenSaverActive);"
<brainwash> called twice unblanks the screen
<brainwash> at least for me
<brainwash> on two different systems
<ali1234> yeah
<brainwash> not this particular line, but the code part
<ali1234> hmm
<ali1234> no sure what you mean really
<brainwash> the communication with X
<ali1234> the thing is that all those leaked background pixmaps persist after the greeter exits
<brainwash> yes, but that's not related to the blanking issue :)
<ali1234> well, why did you mention it then?
<brainwash> it's related to bug 1251431
<ubottu> bug 1251431 in LightDM GTK+ Greeter "user background gets painted over background specified in config file" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1251431
<ali1234> ok. i don't understand how it is related...
<brainwash> so we really need to cleanup the code
<ali1234> unless you mean it's related in a general sense of "this code sucks and has lots of problems"
<ali1234> which is fair enough
<brainwash> take a look at the create_root_surface function
<brainwash> this function contains the line to blank the screen (after locking it)
<brainwash> so it behaves like xscreensaver
<ali1234> yeah
<brainwash> if you call set_background, you also call create_root_surface
<ali1234> ok...
<brainwash> and this is bad, because my screen does not remain blanked
<ali1234> ok, see that's where you lost me
<brainwash> if I call set_background only once, it works
<brainwash> screen stays blanked
<ali1234> ok, so on startup you mean
<brainwash> right
<ali1234> startup after yu pressed "lock screen" that is
<brainwash> yes
<brainwash> the normal screen lock does no allow user switching anyway
<ali1234> yeah but that's irrelevant
<ali1234> the problem is it sets the background to default, then creates a bunch of widgets, then sets background to the user one
<brainwash> so... we can fix many problems with a code cleanup :D
<ali1234> but it can't get the user background until after it did all that widget stuff
<brainwash> can't we set the background to default only as fallback option, if the user background is not available?
<ali1234> yes
<ali1234> but that means defering it
<ali1234> until after the point where we usually load the user background
<brainwash> yes, won't hurt or?
<ali1234> well, it might do, because there's no root pixmap until after set_background
<brainwash> currently I've simply commented the default background call out
<ali1234> yes
<ali1234> actually what you need to do is move the set_background to...
<brainwash> yeah
<ali1234>     if (lightdm_greeter_get_hide_users_hint (greeter))
<ali1234> which is much further down the functions
<ali1234> around 1890
<brainwash> the solution is quite easy
<ali1234> go on...
<brainwash> looks like you are very interested in fixing this :D
<ali1234> it's fairly simple to fix, just a lot of refactoring
<brainwash> you are more skilled, I would mess up and break the code :/
<ali1234> that's the problem with refactoring things
<ali1234> that's why nobody ever wants to do it
<brainwash> usually you have some tests to verify the functionality
<brainwash> but I'll try to write a patch later (to at least provide a fix for my bug report)
<ali1234> part of the problem is that it doesn't just use one pixmap
<ali1234> it makes one per screen
<ali1234> so then you have to have an array to keep track of them
<ali1234> and you have to handle screens getting added and removed
<brainwash> ouch
<ali1234> currently it does none of this, it just blasts all over whatvever exists "right now" and then leaks it
<brainwash> what about the unity-greeter? is it more mature?
<ali1234> dunno. it's vala, and huge
<brainwash> it's written in vala 
<brainwash> yes
<ali1234> i'd rather fix this code i think
<ali1234> i bet unity-greeter has just as many problems
<ali1234> actually it's even worse than i thought, because it disconnects from the xserver after dumping the pixmap on it
<ali1234> so if you keep a reference to it, it can go invalid without warning
<ali1234> this is really hairy...
<knome> elfy, ping
<brainwash> you should ge a cup of coffee
<brainwash> get
 * genii readies the coffeepot
<ali1234> i just realised this while i was brewing some tea
<elfy> s'up knome 
<knome> elfy, you worked with the community wiki i assume?
<knome> elfy, the community *help* wiki
<elfy> once or twice
<knome> elfy, aha, okay
<knome> elfy, i still might need your opinion..
<elfy> well - that was a figure of speech :) quite a bit :)
<knome> but i'll get back to you later on that
<knome> lol
<knome> haha, in that case
<knome> i'll get to you now :)
<elfy> lol
<knome> noticed i took a work item on refreshing the frontpage?
<knome> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/FrontPageRefresh
<knome> that's a brief start
<knome> i'm starting with trying to see what kind of stuff would be best grouped together
<elfy> ok 
<knome> how up-to-date is the NewDocs page?
<elfy> pretty much worked on constantly 
<knome> and why that name and not MostPopular or sth
<elfy> god only knows 
<knome> lol
<knome> also,
<knome> do you think the alphabet-pages could have some kind of shared banner
<elfy> last post in the thread a bunch of people working on newdocs was 4 days ago 
<knome> to link back to the frontpage (NewDocs) and the rest of the alphabets
<knome> gtg, brb
<elfy> talk to slickymaster about that newdocs thingy - he'll have an idea
<knome> okay
<elfy> he's done a lot of work with those doing that page
<elfy> but what was it you wanted from me?
<knome> well, comments about my page
<knome> and if you had other ideas and insight what would be useful on the front page, and if there is something you think could be dropped
<elfy> ok 
<elfy> <knome> do you think the alphabet-pages could have some kind of shared banner
<knome> i'm definitely not forcing any layout or changes that people who are familiar with the wiki do not think are useful, and open to all suggestions
<elfy> what did that refer to? the newdocs thing?
<knome> yep
<knome> all the pages could have a banner that said "Popular posts" and then list all the alphabets
<elfy> I'd imagine the only reason it hasn't is that no-one has either not bothered yet - or can't 
<knome> lol
<elfy> I've bookmarked your new page - I'll look tomorrow afternoon when I get back 
<elfy> but - the current page definitely needs a revamp :)
<ochosi> ali1234: there is another greeter based on lightdm-gtk-greeter
<ali1234> elfy: on the subject of the wiki and specifically that triage page - i think the descriptions of what bug statuses mean should be removed from that page and merged into Bugs/Status (which is linked near the bottom)
<ochosi> it might have some of those issues fixed
<knome> eewh, surge protection
<ali1234> ochosi: oh? where is it?
<ochosi> ali1234: here https://www.google.at/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CDIQFjAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fkalgasnik%2Flightdm-another-gtk-greeter&ei=TN6LUo0WjNfsBoibgegI&usg=AFQjCNHD3XUgYZOkNz9mE_foxPUMSomhlg&sig2=L2mGPe5-4j1kK_ohW2SGaQ&bvm=bv.56643336,d.ZGU
<ochosi> gah
<ochosi> sory
<knome> ochosi, well done
<ochosi> yeah :(
<ochosi> ali1234: https://github.com/kalgasnik/lightdm-another-gtk-greeter
<ochosi> ali1234: i've also gotten in touch with the author, because the changes seemed quite vast and i'm not sure we'd want all of that
<ali1234> hmm yes looks like it has some changes with how screen backgrounds work
<ochosi> he replied he might help but he was busy and haven't heard back since
<ali1234> well, i can try to port his fixes
<ali1234> did you read all my ranting?
<ali1234> do you happen to know what revision he forked from?
<ali1234> https://github.com/kalgasnik/lightdm-another-gtk-greeter/commit/a21a7e15e77d54fc36042f3589a34193c7d65841#diff-803c5170888b8642f2a97e5e9423d399L129
<ali1234> typing in wrong window is bad...
<ali1234> wait, is this even a fork?
<ochosi> yeah, i read all your rants
<ali1234> this code has no resemblance to lightdm-gtk-greeter at all
<ochosi> but as i said, i'm not the author and didn't feel comfortable with fiddling with the bits and pieces too much
<ochosi> (or at least with the larger bits and pieces)
<ali1234> yeah i can't blame you for not wanting to change anything in this code
<ali1234> *i* don't want to either
<ochosi> it mostly worked so far
<knome> elfy, the wiki is impossible to edit!
<ali1234> the way it works is a nasty brutal hack
<ali1234> it works... no more, no less
<ochosi> so we started ironing out some stuff
<ochosi> and improved the looks
<ochosi> that's pretty much where it is now
<elfy> knome: why do you think I said once or twice
<knome> ;)
<elfy> I hate the wiki :)
<ochosi> +1
<knome> ochosi, i'm talking about a different wiki!
<ochosi> i've started to consider making small previews of the background-submissions just to make the page-loading more bearable
<elfy> and don't whatever you do logout of it - it takes a week of sundays to log back in ... 
<knome> ochosi, i considered the same thing actually
<knome> ochosi, and maybe we simply should do Incoming and Accepted
<ochosi> wouldn't take very long to do it
<ochosi> yeah, as i suggested once...
<knome> no, not really
<ochosi> ok, how then?
<knome> and i said go ahead if you think that's what we need
<knome> and then you were "meh"
<ochosi> yeah, but i wanted to wait for pleia2 actually
<knome> "wouldn't take very long to do it" -- "no, not really" 
<elfy> knome: can you at some point soon - check the LTS pending blog, fiddle with it if necessary and get it published :)
<elfy> not too worried about the other one
<ochosi> knome: the good part of that distinction would be that the not-yet-accepted ones would be more visible
<knome> ochosi, yes
<elfy> right - I'm off now - back tomorrow
<ochosi> ali1234: fwiw, i never got around to really testing that other greeter, feature-full as it might be
<knome> ochosi, and we could have a naming scheme for the files that makes it easier to handle them
<ochosi> ok, i'll start setting up an accepted-page
<ochosi> knome: ok, so are there any submissions you wouldn't accept so far for some reason? (apart from the ones with license-issues)
<knome> i don't think there is any reason to decline any other at this point
<ochosi> yeah, i agree
<ochosi> so, naming-scheme
<ochosi> easiest is title. but title_author would also work
<knome> could even be author_title
<ochosi> yeah
<ochosi> true, there are many that submitted more than one
<knome> titles are just arbitrary... titles
<knome> ochosi, i would also make a note to the accepted page that those wallpapers are accepted *submissions*, and that there is no promises of them getting into the release, and that people shouldn't edit that page directly
<ochosi> yeah
<ochosi> knome: feel like doing a few thumbnails? ;)
<knome> send me all the files and i'll batch-convert them.
<ochosi> that'll take ages with my connection
<ali1234> ochosi: did you add all the "is_locked" stuff?
<ochosi> ali1234: yeah, in the last commit (or the one before that)
<knome> ochosi, heh.
<ali1234> is it's only purpose to trigger the XForceScreenSaver in create_root?
<knome> ochosi, what do you want me to do then?
<ochosi> ali1234: yeah. the main issue was that i didn't want to write another function to cycle through all displays...
<ochosi> knome: download the pics yourself, man! :)
<ali1234> ochosi: well my concern is it can only ever be called on gdk_display_get_default() anyway
<ali1234> which should always be the same thing
<ali1234> so why not just call it once, from main()?
<ochosi> sounds quite plausible :)
<ali1234> then every instance of is_locked can be removed
<knome> ochosi, all of them?
<ochosi> knome: all of the accepted ones
<knome> uh
<knome> what have you done so far?
<ochosi> knome: i'm still in process of moving/renaming them
<knome> okay
<knome> so do you want me to do that once you've moved?
<ochosi> as you wish, i mean basically you already know which ones i'm gonna move
<knome> well if the moving is fine for you, it's easiest for me to just grab * from one page
<ochosi> that's also ok
<knome> ok, good
<knome> let me know when you're done
<ochosi> basically the renaming is the more annoying part
<ochosi> sure
<ali1234> ok does someone want to try lp:~a-j-buxton/lightdm-gtk-greeter/experimental
<ali1234> i think this will fix the locking thing, but not the double drawing background
<ali1234> i might be totally wrong though
<ochosi> sure, i'll do that as soon as i've finished the monkey job in the wiki...
<ali1234> hmm... want a script for that?
<ochosi> hm, if you can include creating thumbnails, sure! :)
<ali1234> not a problem. what exactly do you need to do? download all submitted images and thumbnail them?
<ochosi> that's the one part, the more annoying part is moving some of the submissions to the accepted-page
<ochosi> and rename them to author_title
<ochosi> so that's hard to script
<knome> probably best to suffer of it once
<knome> after that it's one or two per time
<ochosi> yeah, i mean the script for downloading images and creating thumbs might still be handy
<knome> well blah :)
<ochosi> i also hate the plaintext links
<ochosi> might fix that later
<ali1234> did you just delete a bunch of stuff from the page?
<pleia2> ochosi is destroying my inbox
<ochosi> pleia2: sorry ;)
<ochosi> maybe it's time to set up some filter-rules? 
<ali1234> why is there an application_octet-stream attached to the page?
<ochosi> ali1234: yeah, not sure, it's just now getting easier to see all the attachments
<ochosi> knome: i think i'm done
<knome> ochosi, i'll get to that soon. i need to fix something else first ;)
<pleia2> ochosi: normally I want to see :) I just keep getting notifications, whee
<ochosi> pleia2: sorry, but the cleanup was direly needed...
<pleia2> I know, I kid anyway
<ochosi> ali1234: hehe, that octet stream looks like a debian wallpaper
<ochosi> http://www.zimagez.com/zimage/screenshot-11192013-115531pm.php
<knome> pleia2, i'm the next one to spam your inbox
<ali1234> i like it
<ochosi> yeah
<ochosi> nice'n'spacey
<ochosi> pity that there's no author etc
<knome> pleia2, ready for another round of spam?
<knome> pleia2, ready or not, here it comes
<pleia2> si
<ochosi> ali1234: ok, locking and blanking still works
<ochosi> so far so good
<ochosi> ali1234: the fun thing is i wanted to implement it like that in the beginning, but then i somehow thought i have to force the screensaver for each display separately
<ali1234> display/screen confusion
<ali1234> easily done
<ochosi> yeah
<ochosi> :/
<ochosi> well, thanks!
<ochosi> if you could submit it as a merge-request, i can merge it in
<ali1234> though i'm not sure why you get away with calling it multiple times for each screen, but calling the whole loop more than once breaks
<ali1234> unless of course you never tested on multiscreen :)
<ali1234> yeah i can mr it
<ochosi> i have a dualhead setup here
<ochosi> so that might fix blanking for brainwash hopefully
<ali1234> http://paste.ubuntu.com/6445334/
<ochosi> knome: ^
<knome> they are already uploaded
<ali1234> this only downloads and thumbnails them anyway :)
<knome> i'm just laying out the page
<ochosi> i think i'll keep the download-part of that script around, we could attach a tarball with all backgrounds for convenience
<bluesabre> ah
<bluesabre> good ol BeautifulSoup
<ochosi> hey there bluesabre 
<ali1234> it will probably crash if there's anything "not an image" attached to the page
<bluesabre> when it works, it works well
<ali1234> or if someone uploads an image named "do=view&.jpg"
<ali1234> actually probably not since it would be escaped
<bluesabre> that would be only slightly evil
<ochosi> in what package would i find that beautiful soup?
<ali1234> python-beautifulsoup
<ochosi> gah, i was looking in libpython
<ochosi> i'll start testing the wallpapers then
<ochosi> just have to add a rm *_250.jpg
<ochosi> ali1234: you wouldn't know anything about using the X11 dpms extension?
<knome> ochosi, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Roadmap/Specifications/Trusty/CommunityWallpapers/Accepted
<ochosi> knome: fail: juergendonauer_walkingfishermaninthesunset.jpg_250
<knome> fixed already you stupid
<knome> :P
<bluesabre> lol
<ochosi> oh sure, pin it on me! :D
 * knome pins
<ochosi> damn
<ali1234> ochosi: i didn't know anything about any of these things before i started digging :)
<ochosi> ali1234: hehe, well same here ;) anyway, thing is that that would be the preferred blanking of the screen, the standby of the display
<ali1234> so you want the screen to turn off when it does XForceScreenSaver?
<ochosi> yeah
<ochosi> cause the VT-switch cause the screen to switch off for a second
<ochosi> so ideally it would stay that way
<ochosi> instead of "waking up" only to stay blank
<ali1234> DPMSForceLevel?
<ali1234> http://ftp.x.org/pub/X11R6.9.0/doc/html/DPMSForceLevel.3.html
<ochosi> knome: set xfdesktop to change the wallpaper to one of the submissions ;)
<ochosi> ali1234: yeah, i'd try DPMSForceLevel(display, DPMSModeOff);
<knome> ochosi, huh:P
<ochosi> but from what i heard, there are multiple dpms extensions for X11
<ali1234> i have no idea how to test this stuff - screensaver/locking is horribly broken here, i had to remove all of it
<ochosi> so i started to be a bit doubtful of what would work, it also adds an extra dependency
<ochosi> what are you using now?
<ali1234> the monitor power switch
<ochosi> the proposed solution for xubuntu is light-locker
<ochosi> haha
<ochosi> that one also wouldnt need the dpms patch i guess
<ali1234> for some reason the display still goes blank after a time, but does not turn off
<ochosi> well those are different things afaik
<ochosi> blanking and standby
<ochosi> with potentially different timeouts
<ochosi> check "xset q" for your local settings
<ali1234> they're all disabled in the control panels
<ali1234>   Standby: 0    Suspend: 0    Off: 0
<ochosi> not sure what those control panels you're referring to control
<ochosi> and in the screensaver part?
<ali1234> me either
<ali1234> there is no screensaver part
<ochosi> rly?
<ochosi> funny
<ali1234> oh wait
<ali1234> timeout: 600
<ochosi> that's it
<ochosi> 10min
<ochosi> a bit short for my taste, but ok
<ochosi> so if you enable standby, it'll shut off the backlight of the monitor
<knome> bbl
<ochosi> (or was it suspend that did that, i'm always confused by those two namings...)
<ochosi> bluesabre: btw, i noticed that the parole-docs don't cover the "hidden" playback-shortcuts yet (arrow-keys etc), slickymaster agreed to add them
<bluesabre> oh yeah
<bluesabre> :D
<ochosi> cause those are actually quite important in the docs, as they're not easily discoverable
<bluesabre> right
<ochosi> ali1234: because you mentioned cross-fading would be only 5 lines, what method would you use exactly?
<ali1234> set a timer, draw the background multiple times
<ali1234> that was before i really looked at the code though
<ali1234> doing this would be a terrible idea since each time you draw the background it leaks a pixmap
<ochosi> that just means we have to make our default wallpapers lean ;)
<ali1234> no
<ali1234> the pixmap is monitor sized
<ali1234> contents don't matter, it's not compressed
<ali1234> this is what create_root does
<ochosi> true (i was kinda kidding there)
<ali1234> specifically the pixmap it creates doesn't get freed - by design
<ali1234> i'm reading all about RetainPermanent at the moment
<ochosi> yeah, that might've been robert_ancell's idea then
<ali1234> i can see why it's done
<ali1234> if you only set the background once it makes perfect sense
<ochosi> yeah, which originally was the case
<ali1234> because it stays around after the greeter exits
<ochosi> the background-switching was introduced by us (mr_pouit)
<ali1234> but if you change the background, you're making a new one each time, and they all stay
<ochosi> maybe best to check what unity-greeter does
<ochosi> as it also shows user-wallpapers
<ali1234> change the background 100 times and you leak 1GB
<ali1234> maybe it would be better to only do this RetainPermanent thing once when the greeter exits
#xubuntu-devel 2013-11-20
<ali1234> and just use a normal window to show the pixmap before that
<ali1234> that might be easier than trying to track all the pixbuf allocations
<ochosi> yeah
<ochosi> that sounds like a good solution
<ochosi> that'd also make your fading solution work
<ali1234> so the big question is does it matter if there's a root pixmap or not?
<ochosi> well it kinda does for xfwm4
<ali1234> yeah, eventually it does
<ochosi> that's what brainwash was complaining about all the time
<ali1234> i mean does it matter between the first and second set_background() calls...
<ochosi> right, probably not
<ochosi> only when the greeter exits would be my guess
<ali1234> so then we can fix the flicker by just moving when it sets the background
<ochosi> yeah, probably
<ali1234> i just pushed another commit which does this
<ochosi> darn, you're fast
<ali1234> crap, i didn't test it
<ochosi> hehe
<ochosi> i'll leave the build-error to you then ;)
<ali1234> how do i git reset with bzr?
<ali1234> or git commit --amend?
<ochosi> i dunno, i hate bzr and only use it if i absolutely have to...
<ali1234> ah, bzr uncommit
<ali1234> and now i have to delete the branch on launchpad and push it again because there's no bzr push -f
<ali1234> ok, try that
<ali1234> you'll probably have to delete and branch the repo again
<ochosi> yup, rebranching...
<ali1234> bzr -leave-me-alone-i-know-what-im-going
<ochosi> :)
<ochosi> if only
<ochosi> ok, brb, testing now
<Unit193> So you need a git-bzr. :D
<ali1234> it's pretty much mandatory if you want to bisect
<ochosi> looks good
<ochosi> i still haven't built xfwm4 with that root-background support so the grey background flicker is still there
<ali1234> my concern is that all that create_root_surface stuff will get done much later
<ochosi> but the greeter still works
<ochosi> as it did before, i didn't feel any difference
<ochosi> (apart from your modified config-file ;)
<ali1234> config file?
<ali1234> did i commit that?
<ali1234> no...
<ochosi> hm, no, i forgot it defaults to radiance
<ochosi> or ambiance actually
<ochosi> i just remembered you used radiance on some screenshots, so i concluded without looking
<ali1234> i use orion :)
<ochosi> oh :)
<ochosi> much better
<ali1234> but recoloured with radiance colours
<ochosi> i don't like how clumsy some of the widgets look with radiance
<ochosi> so you're one of the few users of elementary-xfce-darkest?
<ali1234> no, i use ubuntu-mono icons
<ochosi> meh :)
<ali1234> i just wish human theme worked on gtk3...
<ochosi> human theme?
<ochosi> which one do you mean?
<ali1234> the ubuntu theme from before light-themes
<ochosi> ah
<ochosi> wasn't that something like a recolored version of gnome's default at the time?
<ochosi> i mean cleanlooks
<ali1234> possibly
<ochosi> a brown cleanlooks of sorts
<ochosi> i vaguely remember cleanlooks being ported to gtk3
<ali1234> i think it was a fork of that, yes
<ochosi> but the problem are the various gtk3 theme changes
<ochosi> it'd have to be rather recent to be useable
<ali1234> yeah... plus straight porting isn't enough with all the new things
<bluesabre> that theme was good when it was more orange than brown
<ochosi> ali1234: well yeah, obviously lots and lots of pixmap assets
<bluesabre> I used to use shiki-/gnome-colors exclusively, but not many updates there :)
<ochosi> yeah, i also used shiki for a longer while
<ochosi> was nice with the icons that went along with it
<ochosi> quite a consistent look
<ochosi> bluesabre: someone made shiki-spinoffs of greybird, saw those a while ago (greybird-brave, etc.)
<ochosi> but with gtk-theme-config they're kinda superfluous
<ali1234> gtk-theme-config needs more options
<ali1234> only one of them does anything with orion
<ochosi> yeah, we initially considered more options
<ochosi> but then again the UI just gets complex
<ochosi> (for the average user)
<ochosi> and it doesn't work with many themes
<ali1234> perhaps have one colour selection, and generate the others based on that
<ochosi> you mean all of them?
<ali1234> well, "some"
<ali1234> eg for orion...
<bluesabre> like modifying @fg_color in greybird
<ochosi> bluesabre: did you see ali1234's lp-branch?
<bluesabre> haven't checked it yet
<bluesabre> still the same one?
<ochosi> ye4ah
<ali1234> hmm i never pushed it
<ochosi> haha
<ochosi> sweet
<ali1234> basically...
<ali1234> the selection colour is the most colourful thing in most themes, yeah?
<ochosi> yeah
<ochosi> that and the bg-color define the theme mostly
<bluesabre> ochosi: repost it?  its a lp: url and harder to find in this backlog
<ali1234> so i found good results by setting that to a bright colour, and then setting on of the others to a kind of washed out version of the same tone
<ochosi> https://code.launchpad.net/~a-j-buxton/lightdm-gtk-greeter/experimental
<bluesabre> danke
<ochosi> oh :)
<ali1234> so you can set the selection with gtk-theme-config
<ali1234> it could then automatically change the other one
<ali1234> let me try to find the code...
<ochosi> ali1234: "one of the others" means what exactly?
<ali1234> i don't remember which one it was... looking now
<ochosi> ah sure
<ali1234> ah there we go
<ali1234> actually i guess these colours are autogenerated anyway
<ochosi> depends on what colors you are talking about
<ali1234> well, all of them
<ali1234> all the gtkrc colours
<ochosi> yeah, well there are only 6 basic colors or so
<ali1234> basically what i mean is that the user would pick their "favourite" colour, and it would tint all the gtkrc colours
<ochosi> and then the rest is (usually, i.e. in good themes) generated
<ochosi> in bad themes, there are hardcoded colors
<ali1234> there's the basic ones, and then xfwm4 generates a whole load of different shades of them
<ali1234> sure, bad themes will never work right though :)
<ochosi> exactly
<ali1234> if user picks a bad theme there's not much can be done about that :)
<bluesabre> but they will still report bugs about it ;)
<ochosi> tell me about it
<ochosi> ali1234: did you push all the bits of your greeter-changes for testing?
<ali1234> yes
<ochosi> ok, from my pov this could be merged, but we can give it some more testing
<ochosi> bluesabre: do you still use the nouveau drivers? :)
<bluesabre> ochosi, not currently, though I could
<ochosi> since the whole set_background mumbojumbo was kinda directed at nouveau, it'd be nice to see whether things got better, wors or are the same
<ochosi> s/wors/worse/
<ochosi> brainwash: could you test ali1234's branch with ati and intel and see whether it works as expected, plz?
<ochosi> a garage full of testing hardware would really be nice...
<ali1234> with all the talk about testing i watched today...
<ali1234> it would be nice if there was a way to put out one-off calls for testing
<ali1234> it's like... testing is focused on isos and packages... but all the dev work is done "upstream"
<brainwash> ochosi: yes, will do it tomorrow
<ali1234> it takes too long for feedback to filter through
<ochosi> ali1234: yeah, true
<refarr> hello
<refarr> anyone there?
<pleia2> usually
<refarr> I have a question, about xubuntu and I can't find any help at all
<refarr> I just installed xbuntu 12.04...I clicked on terminal and it asked me for the default
<pleia2> you want #xubuntu
<refarr> I tried that
<pleia2> this is the development channel
<refarr> no one responded
<pleia2> I don't see you there
<refarr> I'll see you over there then
<pleia2> pro tip: don't lie, it makes a bad first impression :P
<bluesabre> burn
<bluesabre> :)
<pleia2> I am clearly grumpy :)
<bluesabre> just keeping things neat and orderly I'd say
<forestpiskie> ali1234: for us to put out calls for testing it's really simple - talk to me 
<elfy> or me 
<xubuntu155> hi
<Noskcaj> hey xubuntu155 
<xubuntu155> I have a problem with xfce4-power-manager, it simply does not work
<xubuntu155> the problem is for example: when I set to ASK when I press power button, it simply ignores :( that and turn off anyway
<xubuntu155> and etc.. another example when set "do nothing" when close lid.. it will suspend too
<xubuntu155> I'm not at home so just asking what would be the problem
<xubuntu155> could*
<Noskcaj> !support
<ubottu> The official ubuntu support channel is #ubuntu. Also see http://ubuntu.com/support and http://ubuntuforums.org and http://askubuntu.com
<Noskcaj> In this case, #xubuntu
<Noskcaj> It's caused by logind and xfce4-power-manager not working together yet though. Affects me, but there's not much we can do right now
<xubuntu155> ah k thx
<xubuntu155> then I try to manually config logind
<xubuntu155> thx bb!
<slickymaster> morning all
<slickymaster> knome: just wanted to thank you for the changes you made to https://help.ubuntu.com/community/NewDocs. They are very appealing and I'm certain that they should encourage users to return to NewDocs
<slickymaster> knome: Can I just ask you how did you came across with NewDocs?
<ochosi> micahg: since you reported the bug yourself and still nothing has happened there, I'd suggest I close this bugreport as wontfix for now? LP #1161498
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1161498 in shimmer-themes (Ubuntu) "Title bar not showing when using Greybird" [Medium,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1161498
<bluesabre> ochosi: #-ot
<bluesabre> thanks :)
<ochosi> :(
<bluesabre> the dangers of a wiki
<ochosi> gah, that guy was already annoying yesterday...
<ochosi> well, luckily wikis are easy to revert :)
<ochosi> bluesabre: you didn't test the nouveau stuff anymore yesterday, right?
<bluesabre> no, didn't get a chance
<bluesabre> just testing login, or..?
<ochosi> yeah, login and locking
<ochosi> locking/blanking
<ochosi> from the code-side, i think ali1234's changes make a lot of sense, but as drivers not always make sense..
<ochosi> anyway, no rush
<ochosi> maybe i can also test it later today or tomorrow
<bluesabre> I'll go ahead and test it now
<ochosi> oh
<ochosi> cool
<ochosi> gotta go, but lemme know
<bluesabre> will do
<bluesabre> have fun
<ochosi> thanks, you too!
<ochosi> ttyl
<slickymaster> knome: FYi http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2110857&page=15&p=12852698#post12852698
<bluesabre> ochosi: from what I've tested, his branch definitely seems faster.  On initial login, I don't see the graphical glitches, but when I lock the screen, I see leftovers from my last reboot
<ali1234> it shouldn't be faster...
<ali1234> it pretty much just does things in a different order
<ali1234> bluesabre: when you say you see leftovers... what is the exact sequence of events?
<bluesabre> when the screen comes up, my background consists of a garbled mess of what my previous session looked like. http://imagebin.org/index.php?mode=image&id=278024
<bluesabre> ali1234 ^
<bluesabre> this is what it generally does with the nouveau drivers though
<ali1234> ah, i see
<ali1234> so lock->screen blanks->move mouse->you see that?
<bluesabre> interestingly enough, the screen doesn't blank now on lock
<ali1234> hmmmm.....
<ali1234> the change i made was to only call the force lock function once
<ali1234> since calling it more than once seems to make the screen unblank
<bluesabre> I might try some different combinations with your branch and see if I can figure something out
<bluesabre> also, it might just seem faster to me because nouveau is faster with VT-switching than nvidia-proprietary drivers
<ali1234> i can't test with nouveau because it freezes on my card :/
<bluesabre> I can probably look forward to that with my next laptop... this one is quite a few years old
<bluesabre> anyway, gotta go get ready for work now.  Back in 10ish hours
<ochosi> bluesabre: i also experienced the "garbled mess" with nouveau
<ochosi> furthermore suspend didnt work well, so i switched back to nvidia
<knome> slickymaster, ta ta
<slickymaster> knome: ?!
<knome> slickymaster, the forum link.
<slickymaster> knome: ah :)
<knome> slickymaster, i'll keep on tweaking stuff there...
<knome> see https://help.ubuntu.com/community/FrontPageRefresh
<knome> any feedback is welcome
<slickymaster> knome: I appreciate your help
<slickymaster> knome: alright, I'll take a look at it later and will tell you my views
<knome> sure
<knome> it's still a WIP
<knome> i really want to have some feedback from people who are familiar with the community help wiki
<knome> i don't just want to come there and change everything
<slickymaster> knome: let me ask you something, just out of curiosity, how come did you came across with NewDocs?
<knome> slickymaster, i found it buried somewhere in the frontpage ;)
<slickymaster> knome: well, lucky us for your good pair of eyes
<knome> heh
<knome> my intention is to make that more prominent in the future as you can see from the drafted frontpage
<slickymaster> knome: resulting just of a quick glance I could suggest you the addition of a NewDocs link in the See Also section, but I'll have a thorough look at it this night
<slickymaster> knome: by the way, I meant to ask you this a while ago, but forgot it, can you tell me where is the <<(NewDocs/Banner)>> you included in the entry page of https://help.ubuntu.com/community/NewDocs
<knome> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/NewDocs/Banner
<slickymaster> knome: thanks
<slickymaster> knome: as it turns out it was as idiot question because logically it would be a distinct page
<knome> slickymaster, but NewDocs is already in the top banner. why should it be in "see also" ?
<slickymaster> knome: I think I should not only get a new pair of glass but also a fresh cop of coffee. Please apologize me and pay no attention to me today, knome as I'm surely going dumb ;)
<knome> lol :)
<knome> np
<elfy> knome: re front page - at a quick look, I'd put the top 2 lines underneath the 3 help topic boxes or make them more pronounced - if I was going there in a panic/hurry I would miss the official docs link
<elfy> the installation boxes would be better not lop-sided imo
<elfy> the hardware/software/ firther areas look good
<elfy> bit of white space between them and the signpost perhaps 
<knome> hey elfy 
<knome> haven't got as far as the signpost yet
<knome> so yep, will look into that
<knome> ultimately, i don't think if the signpost is useful as it is
<elfy> not really - though I've met some real life ones like that - pointing to nowhere :p
<knome> heh
<elfy> would probably be better as a 'boxed area' like the 3 previous ones
<knome> mhm
<elfy> sigh - keep getting an error on a wiki save 
<knome> :)
<elfy> 503 last time - internal server error this time 
<elfy> but it appears to have saved - so I'll move on quickly :p
<sergiobenrocha2> hello
<sergiobenrocha2> elfy or anyone?
<elfy> I'm sort of here sergiobenrocha2 
<sergiobenrocha2> sort?
<sergiobenrocha2> i'm having an "save session" issue here...
<elfy> with a wiki? 
<elfy> ubuntu wiki type?
<elfy> if you are - join the club, so was I - might be having issues, which it does from time to time
<sergiobenrocha2> no, with save session support of xfce
<elfy> not really the best place to talk about it - is it in trusty? 
<sergiobenrocha2> yes
<sergiobenrocha2> "Automatically save session on logout" option, from "Session and Startup", is not saving session
<sergiobenrocha2> even selected, it is not saving session.
<elfy> ok - well I'd file a bug for it then we can get people to confirm it 
<elfy> not sure what package to file it against though off hand - knome might know, or someone else will pipe up
<sergiobenrocha2> but it is funny, here, in xubuntu 13.10, it is the opposite. Even it is not selected, it saves session...
<sergiobenrocha2> see: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xfce4-panel/+bug/1204919
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1204919 in xfce4-panel (Ubuntu) "4.10.1 version affects session autosave so it couldn't be switched off" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<sergiobenrocha2> but it is not the only issue... if you logout and select "Save session for future logins", it will save the session and doesn't matter if you take select from this option and make it not selected in "Automatically save session on logout" option, from "Session and Startup", it will continues to open the previously saved session
<sergiobenrocha2> so... it's 2 problems... and I think that the last issue is more an design problem than a code bug
<elfy> sergiobenrocha2: I'm not going to be much help to you tonight at all I'm afraid
<sergiobenrocha2> ok
<sergiobenrocha2> to who can I report (assigned) these issues in launchpad?
<elfy> when you know the package - file the bug - we'll see it 
<sergiobenrocha2> these problem are very annoying, mainly if you close an session of full open apps...
<knome> sergiobenrocha2, you can file a bug against xubuntu-desktop if you don't know the package. we will then triage it to point it to the correct package.
<sergiobenrocha2> ok
<sergiobenrocha2> thanks
<bluesabre> ochosi: one possible solution is to draw GtkImages on each display, which should effectively eliminate and X leftovers
<bluesabre> not sure what the memory difference would be
<ali1234> if you log out and log in again (ie not a full reboot) do you see the leftovers or the correct bitmap?
<ali1234> it could be that nouveau doesn't implement RetainPermanent properly, and deallocates the pixmap, thus drawing garbage instead
<ali1234> this is just wild guessing of course
<bluesabre> actually, now that I have rebooted, Xorg crashes when I try to lock O.o
<ali1234> well, that could be the same bug really, if it's just drawing invalid pointers on the screen
<ali1234> http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2012/03/05/%23ubuntu-x.txt <- oh look, the unity-greeter people had the same though as me (ctrl-f RetainPermanent)
<ali1234> RAOF = robert ancell?
<bluesabre> dunno, ochosi?
<GridCube> https://launchpad.net/~raof
<ali1234> no then
<GridCube> lol he is member of all xubuntu's groups 
<ali1234> that info is private to me :)
<GridCube> no, its in the lp page
<ali1234> it only shows "latest memberships" and the "all memberships" link is private
<ali1234> oh, the icons...
#xubuntu-devel 2013-11-21
<ochosi> ali1234, bluesabre: robert's irc nick has always been robert_ancell afaik
<ochosi> i think if we leak that much memory all the time with the greeter, a gtkimage can't be much worse now, can it?
<ochosi> anyway, gotta rest
<ochosi> night everyone
<bluesabre> I might do some work in a branch for that to test
<bluesabre> night ochosi
<amerigena> Linux Identity magazine will be publishing an article on Xubuntu in its next edition - Xubuntu 13.10 : Bringing Xfce into the future.
<amerigena> Pages 32 - 33, if anyone's interested.
<ali1234> well i'm curious about "bringing xfce into the future"
<pleia2> amerigena: cool :)
<amerigena> It was the best title I could come up with.
<amerigena> I hope that some of you have the opportunity to read and critique it.
<ali1234> can i buy this online?
<amerigena> Go to Linuxidentity.com.
<ali1234> the website is confusing :/
<amerigena> You can get the details there.
<amerigena> Yes, I agree with you completely.
<ali1234> how can a PDF download be out of stock?
<amerigena> I don't know.
<Unit193> "We lost the file when some rookie was given access to the server."?  More likely, something with DRM.
<Unit193> Reminder: There will be an Xubuntu community meeting tomorrow.
<Unit193> Also, for slickymaster: http://sigma.unit193.net/xubuntu/ is the new url, and http://unit193.net/xubuntu/ is the new mirror URL.
<ochosi> holy smokes, someone has garbled up the submissions-page in the wiki again... :/
<slickymaster> morning all
<slickymaster> knome, regarding https://help.ubuntu.com/community/FrontPageRefresh, I would like to point out just three points
<slickymaster> knome, first, I think the reference to the official documentation should be more emphasized. As it is now it's easily missed. I don't think that there's any official icon for the documentation, but probably adding an icon to it would improve on it's visibility 
<slickymaster> knome: You probably already know it, but I'm going to post it anyway, there's this https://help.ubuntu.com/community/IconsPage where you can find a huge collection of icons
<slickymaster> knome, second, I think the design solution of the Installation boxes results all that well, at least visually speaking. I'm not sure if it is related with the table borders or not, but it doesn't look appealing
<slickymaster> knome, third, on the "Finding your way" section is it possible to increase the space between the image and the list in the https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Signpost page?
<slickymaster> knome: anyway, ping me if you consider I'm completely out of line here
<ochosi> slickymaster: i kinda forgot about it, but you'll ping me when the keyboard-shortcuts stuff in the parole-docs is ready, right?
<ochosi> (or is it already?)
<slickymaster> ochosi: of course
<slickymaster> ochosi: I haven't them ready yet because I had a flood in my apartment and everything is a bit chaotic
<slickymaster> ochosi: I'm trying to get them done by the weekend at the very last
<ochosi> slickymaster: oh, sorry to hear that
<ochosi> we also have acqua alta here, took me quite some time to find a way through the city without getting wet...
<ochosi> no stress with that, i only felt bad cause i asked you about it and then kinda forgot again :)
<ochosi> so just do it whenever you have time
<slickymaster> ochosi: yeah, but it's getting fixed, there's a constructor fixing all things, but as I have a wooden floor it's a bit slow
<ochosi> oh, meh
<ochosi> hope there's no slick on the floor though
<ochosi> (sry, couldn't resist...)
 * ochosi hides in shame for the silly pun
<ochosi> so was it a broken pipe or water from the outside?
<slickymaster> ochosi: a broken pipe in a bathroom
<ochosi> slickymaster: that sucks... here it's all sea-water
<ochosi> the only upside of a broken pipe is that the water is usually clean/er than water from the sea and it doesn't smell as much
<slickymaster> ochosi: yeah, but there's nothing like the sea, I wouldn't imagine to live withou having it near by
 * ochosi has done exactly that most of his life
 * slickymaster also, whenever there's a chance he's surfing
<slickymaster> :)
<ochosi> :)
<ochosi> i'm not sure there's much surfing ever in venice
<slickymaster> ochosi: not even near that small island, the cemetery in Murano's direction?
<ochosi> it's called san michele
<slickymaster> ochosi: yes, I forgot it
<ochosi> nah, there are rafts
<ochosi> but i don't think i've seen windsurfers so far
<ochosi> main problem could be that there's too much water-traffic
<slickymaster> ochosi: yes, I was kidding. I know, I've in Venice twice
<slickymaster> been ^^
<ochosi> :)
<ochosi> gah, someone messed up the wiki page for submissions, and i fear all i can do now is revert the last change
<ochosi> so maybe a wallpaper will be lost, not sure
<slickymaster> still haven't forget how well I ate in several Osterias
<slickymaster> not sure if it's well written - Osteria
<ochosi> yeah
<ochosi> but the plural would be osterie
<ochosi> (in italian)
 * ochosi waits for knome to jump out with the rule-book sending us off to x-offtopic
 * slickymaster was think exactly the same thing
<slickymaster> it's better not to push our luck
<ochosi> ;)
<ochosi> well if you were in -ot, i'd already have moved the conversation there
<slickymaster> what's -ot?
<ochosi> #xubuntu-offtopic
<slickymaster> ok
<ochosi> that miraculous place where you can talk about whatever you want :>
<slickymaster> anyway, got go, it's lunch time and I have to go home to see how things are going
<slickymaster> ochosi: we'll have to meet there, then, to speak about Italy, it's one of the most beautiful countries I've ever been  
<slickymaster> bbl
<ochosi> indeed
<ochosi> bon appetit, slickymaster, and good luck with your appartment!
 * skellat asks what time the meeting was supposed to be today
<slickymaster> hi skellat, I believe it was supposed to be at 16:00 UTC
<ochosi> oh, today
<ochosi> right
<ochosi> that would be now..?
<slickymaster> yeaps
<elfy> I'm about but will need pinging 
<slickymaster> but apparently there's almost no one around
<ochosi> yeah, i'm not *really* around actually
<ochosi> should we just reschedule for tomorrow?
<slickymaster> one foot in the other out
<ochosi> or do an impromptu meeting kinda soonish, when more ppl are around
<skellat> !team -- Are we proceeding with the already scheduled meeting that should have started 10 minutes ago or do we need to reschedule it?
<ubottu> skellat: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :)
<skellat> !team-#xubuntu-devel -- Are we proceeding with the already scheduled meeting that should have started 10 minutes ago or do we need to reschedule it?
<ubottu> skellat: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :)
<skellat> !team-#xubuntu-devel -- Are we proceeding with the already scheduled meeting that should have started 10 minutes ago or do we need to reschedule it
<ubottu> skellat: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :)
 * skellat **SLAPS** ubottu
<slickymaster> LOL
<skellat> bluesabre, elfy, GridCube, jjfrv8, knome, micahg, mr_pouit, ochosi, pleia2, skellat, Unit193 -- Are we proceeding with the already scheduled meeting that should have started 10 minutes ago or do we need to reschedule it?
<elfy> I can but will need pinging - in CC uds thing as well
<ochosi> reschedule
<ochosi> (unless ppl suddently start showing up)
<skellat> I'm guessing we're going to have to
<micahg> meeting?
<micahg> I thought the meetings were at 15:00
<skellat> micahg: Agenda for this one said 1600 UTC
<micahg> ok
<micahg> I'm a little out of otuch
<micahg> touch even
<skellat> micahg: With the Community Council having an open session at the same time, I think we'll be re-scheduling since it would be just you and me
<micahg> ok, sure, I'm just working anyways
 * skellat disappears for a moment to do household cleaning
<elfy> meetings moved forward and hour for the end of summer time 
<GridCube> meeting?
<skellat> GridCube: It looks like we'll be rescheduling
<elfy> I guess so 
<slickymaster> knome: besides in Chapter 7. Printing and Scanning, there are two more occurrences of gksudo in xubuntu-docs, namelly in Chapter 13. The command line and in Chapter 2. Migrating and Upgrading
<slickymaster> knome: do you think it's worth to fill bugs to each one, or can I use the existing one https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xubuntu-docs/+bug/1251332 and in my merge proposal fix them all?
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1251332 in xubuntu-docs (Ubuntu) "Use of gksudo in Chapter 7. Printing and Scanning" [Undecided,New]
<slickymaster> bbl
<Unit193> Lets do it now! :P  So next week same time?
<GridCube> i guess so
<GridCube> we can make an informal meeting
<Unit193> #chair GridCube
<elfy> seems the chair is sitting elsewhere Unit193 :)
<GridCube> hahaha
<GridCube> ok want me to do an informal meeting? we can do that
<GridCube> if anyone has anything to report you can report it and we make a mail for that?
<ochosi> better do a real meeting then, at least then meetingology takes the notes for us
<ochosi> but i suggest we stick to rescheduling, not even sure that there are many ppl around now
<GridCube> alright, thoug i believe you can start the meetinglogy ochosi P:
<ochosi> actually i have to take off again for another 30min or so
<ochosi> might be back later tonight though
<ochosi> :/
<GridCube> alright,reschedule then
<elfy> I'd favour that - next thursday :)
<Unit193> Makes sense, I'll wait a second for objections before I add it.
<knome> skellat, you can just call !team on this channel :)
<knome> and sorry, my schedule simply didn't allow me to be around the meeting
<Unit193> Yeah, it's normal ubottu use !fact | text
<Unit193> knome: Next week same time?
<knome> yep
<Unit193> http://goo.gl/hEIYtA
<elfy> 6pm?
<Unit193> Same time as always.
<elfy> Unit193: you did the time in not UTC?
<elfy> cos it's 1800UTC here now 
<knome> boo
<knome> it should be 16utc
<Unit193> Shows up fine for me, hrm.
<ali1234> is there a calendar i can subscribe to to get all of those?
<ali1234> it shows as 18:00 for me too btw, and i'm in GMT now, which = UTC
<Unit193> The google calendar, yeah.  It's the only way I know about the meetings too.
<elfy> they show up on fridge I thought? 
<elfy> thought wrong - must have subscribed to the xubuntu one
<ali1234> ...what's the URL for it?
<Unit193> There, the problem was the timezone wasn't set, so it still showed up fine for me. >_<
<Unit193> ali1234: https://www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=383qgn907l43kd425bteqjg850%40group.calendar.google.com&ctz=America/New_York
<Unit193> Well...
<ali1234> ...but how do i subscribe to it? i need an ical url...
<Unit193> https://www.google.com/calendar/ical/383qgn907l43kd425bteqjg850%40group.calendar.google.com/public/basic.ics should do it.
<ali1234> perfect, thanks
<Unit193> knome: Aha!  The calendar is set to default to (GMT+02:00) Helsinki.
<knome> :P
<ochosi> :)
<knome> feel free to re-set
<knome> if you can.
<Unit193> I didn't think I could, but looks like I can.
<knome> cool
<Unit193> Yep, problem fixed, and I didn't even set it to EST. :P  (GMT, no daylight savings.)
<knome> isn't that namely UTC :P
<Unit193> But it doesn't call it that. :P
<ochosi> brainwash: did you get a chance to test the greeter branch yet?
<knome> hey people,
<Unit193> Yes?
<knome> we were discussing about creating a LP group ~xubuntu-qa
<knome> to at some point replace ~xubuntu-testers
<knome> -qa would be moderated though
<pleia2> to what end?
<Unit193> That was my thought, what's the logic?
<knome> to "we'll approve if you are actually helping us test or other QA activities"
<elfy> -testers is mostly just a bunch of people that have a badge - there's no way we get that many people testing
<elfy> or if they do then the tests never count
<knome> yep... i'm worried that -testers is just for badge collectors
<pleia2> so what? :)
<knome> it doesn't seem to serve a purpose
<pleia2> we can use that team to send out testing announcements
<pleia2> if people don't like getting email as a member of the team, they can quit
<knome> yes... but we can also use twitter, and we get the same amount of replies
<pleia2> I don't see evidence for this
<pleia2> we should give ita try
<knome> me neither. that's just my imagination creating that situation up
<knome> i would want to have a -qa team similar to -art and -website
<elfy> pleia2: don't see evidence for what - that we've got people that are on the testers team but don't appear in test results?
<pleia2> when elfy sends a message to -devel about testing, he also  clicks on "Contact this team's members" to send the same message to all of them
<knome> (expect that it wouldn't really have a technical-formal meaning, only social, for now)
<knome> elfy, for us getting as much replies from twitter as -testers s;)
<elfy> oh right 
<pleia2> if people are really interested in testing, they get notified, if they are badge collectors and don't like getting email about it, they'll leave the team
<Unit193> elfy: Techincally I did some testing, but not general ISO testing, just application for feedback normally to bluesabre.
<knome> pleia2, i disagree.
<pleia2> knome: based on?
<knome> pleia2, they can just filter the mail.
<knome> pleia2, and stay members of the team
<pleia2> doesn't hurt to try it
<knome> no, it doesn't
<pleia2> who cares if they stay members of the team?
 * knome shrugs
<pleia2> I don't share the horror of teams full of badge collectors ;)
<elfy> I don't care if they stay members of the team
<pleia2> they don't have special permissions or anything
<knome> i don't mind that either, but i'd like to see a team of 15 active people than team of 150 non-active
<elfy> what I care about is having some idea of how many I can expect to test 
<pleia2> elfy: I don't think you'll ever have that :(
<elfy> well ... perhaps that's the wrong wording 
<pleia2> sounds like just an admin annoyance, having to come up with a policy of who can be added to -qa (how many tests?), when to remove them (no tests in a cycle?)
<knome> pleia2, well... if i need to know who can help update the xubuntu website, i can always look at -website
<knome> pleia2, same policy as all other subteams.
<elfy> ok - so how about this 
<elfy> use the contact team members - which I'd never really noticed
<pleia2> knome: but website and other teams actually have privs associated with them that make it important to have a moderated team
<knome> pleia2, i don't think it is a problem with the level of "traffic" we would have...
<elfy> and make it moderated perhaps
<pleia2> knome: we want it to become a problem :)
<knome> pleia2, -qa could ultimately be a subteam of ~ubuntu-testcase, which is a team who can edit the testcases.
<pleia2> so what's the point of -testcase then?
<knome> (probably not right away, and possibly not at any point, but...)
<knome> pleia2, that team is the one that technically gives permissions
<knome> pleia2, note, "ubuntu-" ...
<pleia2> just feels like we're not actually solving a problem
<knome> my argument for the -qa team is to be able to give some recognition to people who have worked on that area
<pleia2> ah
<knome> because currently, it seems that they don't have a clear path to -team
<knome> because there is no subteam for them really
<knome> and there are -team members who have ultimately approved mostly for testing
<knome> so why couldn't we use -qa as a stepping stone as well
<knome> (and try to gather those active testers in that group)
<knome> i can name a few people who i'd definitely like to be in -qa who are not on -team
<knome> i mean, from the top of my head
<pleia2> I still don't see benefits outweighing the headache (and depriving us of a way to contact everyone who at one point showed interest in testing) but that's me :)
<knome> creating -qa doesn't necessarily mean we need to drop -testers
<knome> it isn't too much headache to list people who are active with xubuntu qa
<knome> many of us could do that right here right now
<elfy> I'd 'prefer/like' to see -testers as a sub team of qa
<pleia2> admittedly, it's not a headache at all for me if knome does it :)
<knome> and would probably do it faster *without* looking at the -testers memberlist ;)
<knome> well ultimately the ball on that rolls to elfy
<knome> elfy, that wouldn't make much sense ;)
<knome> elfy, create a higher level group and make a lower level group part of that? :)
<elfy> probably not - I'm on the heavy meds today 
<knome> pleia2, heh. yeah.
<elfy> mmm 
<knome> pleia2, so are you saying you'd like to see us using -testers first before creating -qa?
<pleia2> knome: I'd like us to give it a try
<elfy> ok - so let's this cycle use the contact members option 
<knome> pleia2, sure.
<pleia2> elfy: \o/
<knome> pleia2, apart from that, can you (not) see any benefit in creating -qa ?
<knome> that seems to be the only subteam that doesn't have their own LP group atm
<knome> one more reason to be fair and create it for them!
<pleia2> lol
<Unit193> mr_pouit: Howdy.
<knome> as i said, there doesn't seem to be a clear path from "tester" to "team member"
<elfy> other than one in our heads 
<knome> except "test for 5 years until somebody accidentally approves you to -team"
<knome> the strategy document is quite clear on this
<knome> -> get approved to a subteam first, later you can become a team member
<pleia2> if someone wants to track and maintain a -qa team with active testers, ok :)
<pleia2> still just feels like busy work to me unless we really do make them a subteam of the ubuntu-testcases team
<knome> it seems like there is more idea to create that now that QA !=== testing
<knome> err, !==
<knome> back when qa only involved testing... yeah, it would've been a useless group
<pleia2> we don't have a marketing launchpad team either because there are no launchpad things for it to do there
<knome> today being involved with QA doesn't necessarily mean involvement with testing
<knome> pleia2, yeah, but there are -docs and -art
<knome> pleia2, and -website
<knome> pleia2, what else does marketing constitute of?
<pleia2> website and doc at least have special access, don't they?
<elfy> but there are LP things that a QA team can do - if we agree they have access to the tracker - which then entails a deal of trust
<knome> pleia2, and -art, but that's not the point :)
<pleia2> social media is the biggest part of marketin for us
<pleia2> website and marketing are separate subteams
<knome> pleia2, sure. i'm not disagreeing on that :)
<Unit193> docs seems to really only get bug reports, not actually be able to do anything (I was added for some strange reason.)
<knome> i've been mulling over not having -marketing either, but yeah, as you said, no reason for that team...
<pleia2> anyway, I don't really care in the end, it's up to elfy, I just don't want to create a bunch of launchpad teams that are just collections of people for the lulz
<knome> Unit193, you contributed to the docs? :P
<knome> pleia2, no, not at all
<elfy> pleia2: neither would I 
<knome> pleia2, i don't want useless teams either
<pleia2> you could argue that the guy who admins facebook and the one who admins linkedin should be a part of a -marketing collection-of-people for recognition and a path to membership too
<pleia2> but meh
<knome> pleia2, but replacing a useless team that can't be used to track even an approximate amount of anything with a team that can be used to track the approximate amount of testers
<knome> pleia2, agreed. and there is "somebody" who wishes to maintain that... ;)
<pleia2> I made my argument for the value of -testers and now we have an action item :)
<knome> +if
<knome> i'm uncertain if we can actually make -qa a subteam of ubuntu-testcase (depends on balloons)
<knome> but nonetheless i don't think creating -qa is a bad thing
<knome> pleia2, ALSO!
<knome> pleia2, we can then use [xubuntu-qa] for work items :]
<pleia2> yeah
<knome> which would be an improvement really..
<knome> so stupid to dump everything on -team
 * Unit193 symlinked team to knome.
<knome> elfy, you promise to use "contact this team" with -testers this cycle even if we create -qa?
<elfy> yep
<knome> elfy, (and you still want to create -qa?)
<elfy> yea with a tiny dash of not sure 
<knome> heh
<elfy> no - I'm sure :)
<Unit193> Also will have to clarify who should be on it.
<knome> the list that i had on my head is:
<knome> knome, elfy, slickymaster, Nosckaj and last but not least, Unit193 
<knome> and we could voluntell bluesabre as well, since he's on ubuntu-testcase
<knome> elfy is probably able to name a few more testers
<elfy> yep - if someone is on that they should be in -qa
<Unit193> Not sure if I should be on if ple isn't, I don't do a ton more I don't think.  lder does some too, IIRC.
<pleia2> I wasn't involved much in 13.10, but historically I've done tests (and will again for 14.04
<elfy> I'll trawl the test reports to see who shouts at me 
<elfy> and once I start using the -testers contact option we can see what comes out of the woodwork
<knome> heh,
<knome> making a team owner of a team adds it as a member.
<Unit193> Gridders, The Washer of Brains, Madnick?
<elfy> but frankly I'd wonder why something as important as QA is - is just this random group of people who might or might not be doing anything for us 
<knome> elfy, you are now administrator of ~xubuntu-qa
<elfy> so I am 
<knome> wonder why you expire one day earlier than me :P
 * knome shrugs
<elfy> I'd want to talk to slicky before co-opting him though :)
<elfy> expire dates look the same to me 
<knome> weird. for me it shows you expire -20, me -21 :)
<elfy> for me it shows you as -20 :)
<elfy> perhaps 21:49 UTC was a leap minute
<knome> lol
<knome> something like that
<elfy> however - changing all the QA blueprint [xubuntu-team] to [xubuntu-qa] is going to annoy me 
<elfy> just as well put [elfy] :p
<knome> nah, put in -qa where you aren't sure you will be doing something :P
<elfy> lol
<knome> and i hope there are some of those items as well :P
<elfy> oh there will be :)
<elfy> just had a quick count - 17 items 
<elfy> lol
<Unit193>  * Include section on signing Ubuntu Code of Conduct <<<Why exactly?  Aren't there enough places that do this, or is there something specific to Xubuntu that I don't know about?
<knome> i would discuss that with skellat, the father of the idea
<knome> hey slickymaster :)
<Unit193> slickymaster: Howdy.
<skellat> What did I do now?
<slickymaster> hi Unit193, knome 
<slickymaster> knome, not sure if you got a chance to see it so I'm posting it now http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2013/11/21/%23xubuntu-devel.html#t10:13
<Unit193> slickymaster: See my comment about a new domain name for the docs?
<slickymaster> where is your comment, Unit193?
<Unit193> In here, but "http://sigma.unit193.net/xubuntu/ is the new url, and http://unit193.net/xubuntu/ is the new mirror URL."
<slickymaster> just a sec
<knome> slickymaster, yeah, i saw it but still have to process it :)
<Unit193> The old one still works and should keep working, but that's the better one. :P
<slickymaster> yeah, nice, one place with all the available translations
<slickymaster> kudos Unit193, great work you've done
<Unit193> Hah, not really, you're doing most of it. :P
<slickymaster> another thing knome, did you saw this one http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2013/11/21/%23xubuntu-devel.html#t16:45
<slickymaster> Unit193, no, not really
<knome> slickymaster, use bug 1251332 (note changed title)
<ubottu> bug 1251332 in xubuntu-docs (Ubuntu) "Use of gksudo in Xubuntu documentation" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1251332
<slickymaster> knome, got it
<Unit193> I still use `gksudo`, and as far as I know `sudo` will still mess with your permissions.
<slickymaster> knome, I was thinking of going with this for the command line chapter: "<note><para>If the program you wish to run as an administrator is graphical, such as the <application>Mousepad</application> text editor, you should enable your system's root account before launching the desired program, running the command <userinput>sudo -i</userinput> for that effect, even if you are running the application from the command line.</para><
<slickymaster> /note>
<slickymaster> ups, forgot to remove the tags
<slickymaster> If the program you wish to run as an administrator is graphical, such as the Mousepad text editor, you should enable your system's root account before launching the desired program, running the command sudo -i for that effect, even if you are running the application from the command line.
<knome> umm,
<skellat> slickymaster: That's actually pretty unsafe as it won't pass X permissions/authorities correctly
<knome> don't say "enable .. root"
<slickymaster> I can replace it with "... to obtain a root prompt..."
<ali1234> +1 do not say "enable root"
<Unit193> I was thinking that too. :P
<ali1234> skellat: -i does, cos it starts a new login session in that user's homedir
<knome> slickymaster, that sounds better
<elfy> sudo -i is what I'm assuming 
<elfy> gksudo works here as well Unit193 - but only becasue I installed it :)
<elfy> hi slickymaster ali1234 
<Unit193> elfy: I had it.
<elfy> and good night 
<ali1234> skellat: and if it doesn't we have a problem, because ubuntu is telling everyone it's fine after they removed gksudo from the default install
<slickymaster> skellat,  ali1234, the option of going with sudo -i instead of gksudo was agreed with knome and elfy after discussing it with balloons
<slickymaster> hi elfy
<skellat> slickymaster: It throws errors on 12.04
<skellat> Following the example, that is
<Unit193> The main problem with using sudo -i over gksudo is text vs GUI prompt.
<knome> skellat, we're preparing documentation for 14.04 though, 12.04 still says gksudo
<Unit193> (Alt+F2)
<slickymaster> skellat, what knome said
<skellat> knome: I don't have anything set up with 14.04 to test yet
<knome> skellat, sure :)
<slickymaster> skellat, 14.04 doesn't cames shipped with gksudo
<skellat> slickymater: True
<skellat> Let me walk over to the Debian Testing box and try something since that will be closer to 14.04
<skellat> Even though it is armhf
 * slickymaster plans to replace "... enable your system's root account..." with "... to obtain a root prompt..." if no one objects
<Unit193> Lubuntu ships it, Mythbuntu and Edubuntu seem to ship it live.
<knome> would "login to a super user prompt" be better, or sound just avoiding saying "root" ?
<skellat> Unit193: We could fix the seed to avoid these gyrations in editing attempts
 * skellat gets called to the kitchen
<slickymaster> knome, is super user prompt technically correct when referring to root?
<knome> i'm not sure if it's technically correct or exactly the same thing, but i think it communicates the same thing
<Unit193> What's wrong with root prompt?
<knome> i don't know
<knome> i'm just trying to avoid the word "root" :P
<slickymaster> I think it sounds better, Unit193 
<knome> we can always drop it in like that and if needed, change later
<slickymaster> knome, Unit193 , what about administrative prompt?
<Unit193> Sure.
<knome> just go ahead with root prompt
<Unit193> This assumes the user knows how.
<knome> knows what? :)
<slickymaster> knome, Unit193 ^^ what about administrative prompt?
<knome> that's meh
<knome> that more off root than super user is
<slickymaster> you're probably right :P
<slickymaster> I'll go ahead with root prompt, and as you say it can be drop later if needed
<Unit193> knome: How's the translating looking. ;)
<knome> i've done about 55%
<knome> haven't had time to work on it for a few days
 * slickymaster has to put his son in bed
<knome> hf
<Unit193> I was actually kind of thinking the shipping/building/etc. :P
<Unit193> Or, re-creating the pot.
<knome> aha
<knome> :P
<knome> well,
<knome> it's not "looking" anything else than what it was looking last time
<Unit193> Yeeeep, 'tis what I figured. :D
<knome> i suppose i should find somebody who is somewhat familiar with docs/translation packaging
<knome> yeah, good luck to me...
<Unit193> In theory I could work it, but not as nicely.
<knome> for me, what you did on the website, is fine
<knome> that would simply need another page that lists all the translations available
<knome> and a link to that in the main page
<knome> OR
<Unit193> Well, I meant packaged.  That right there is a tad hacky.
<knome> a way to probe what the current language is, and automatically show that
<knome> but... yeah
<knome> i know
<knome> but in theory
<knome> it wouldn't necessarily need to be the latter scenario
<Unit193> But, was thinking you could have seperate packages, like other things, or having them all in one and linked off.
<Unit193> Also, of course you can leave Xubuntu{logo} as the image, only need to remove documentation from that.
<Unit193> Heh, get-pot.sh didn't seem to change much: http://paste.openstack.org/show/BywJtdG9mvTROhKK8VZl/
<knome> yep, we will need to remove that from the image
<Unit193> desktop-guide/libs/shipped-docs is up to date it'd seem.
<knome> yeah, should be
<Unit193> ...Why are these xml files executable?
<knome> i have no idea
<Unit193> Anywho, I'll be silent now. :)
<knome> nah
<knome> bbl (tomorrow or so)
<brainwash> ochosi: not yet, sorry
#xubuntu-devel 2013-11-22
<slickymaster> cy tomorrow guys
<Unit193> Bye.
<slickymaster> Unit193, ;)
<ochosi> brainwash: no worries, just let me know when you do get to it
<bluesabre> ochosi, ali1234: thoughts? https://code.launchpad.net/~smd-seandavis/lightdm-gtk-greeter/gtk_image_background
<bluesabre> it seems to work for me, nouveau and nvidia-proprietary
<bluesabre> oh crap, missed a line that I needed to fix
<bluesabre> but yes, should still work ;)
<bluesabre> fixed
<bluesabre> make
<bluesabre> woops
<pleia2> make: *** No targets specified and no makefile found.  Stop.
<bluesabre> :D
<pleia2> :D
<bluesabre> that command took forever to execture
<bluesabre> or execute
<bluesabre> not even sure what execture is
<pleia2> slow channel
<micahg> so, that's it, no XMir for 14.04
<Unit193> Yes indeedio, I saw this.  Means I'm useless again.
<Unit193> (And I quite agree with that, no unstable and very new *display server* for a LTS.)
<holstein> i thought it was kind of cavalier
<micahg> Unit193: I'm sure we can find another project for you to spearhead ;)
<ochosi> bluesabre: hihi, you pushed your config-file :D
<ochosi> ali1234: i think on top of bluesabre's branch it'll be much easier to implement the fading in the greeter
<slickymaster> morning all
<ochosi> morning slickymaster 
<slickymaster> ochosi: and a good one to you
<ochosi> ta
<slickymaster> knome: FYI https://code.launchpad.net/~slickymaster/xubuntu-docs/xubuntu-docs/+merge/196213
<knome> slickymaster, ta, will get to that later
<slickymaster> knome: tk
<knome> elfy, ping
<ali1234> ochosi: the RetainPermanent stuff is there for a reason
<ali1234> it's supposed to ensure the background stays there between lightdm -> desktop transition
<ali1234> ideally what we want to do is draw a gtk image until lightdm is going to quit, then dump the image to the root pixmap once just before exiting
<ochosi> yeah, that sounds like a plan
<ali1234> however this doesn't necessarily fix the crashing on nouveau
<ali1234> otoh it isn't necessarily the cause either
<ochosi> well bluesabre mentioned that his gtkimage branch worked with nouveau
<ochosi> so we could hope that it really helps
<ali1234> yeah but he removed the RetainPermanent stuff
<ochosi> oh
<ochosi> that has to be added back then
<ali1234> yes, at least for a test
<bluesabre> ah
<bluesabre> I can add that back
<bluesabre> but this should at least eliminate the glitches for when sitting at the login screen
<ochosi> sounds good
<bluesabre> (also fixes the crazy memory leak)
<bluesabre> but, I suppose I'll be adding that back with the RetainPermanent code
<ochosi> yeah, i think we can merge that branch pretty soon :)
<ali1234> bluesabre: it has to be not just added back, but reworked so it only gets called once at the very end, instead of at the start
<bluesabre> ah
<bluesabre> I see
<bluesabre> that makes sense
<ochosi> yeah, so the leak would indeed be fixed
<ali1234> not necessarily
<ali1234> well, yes, the *leak*
<ali1234> but not necessarily the display corruption/crashing
<ali1234> because it leaks by design
<bluesabre> right
<ali1234> the entire point of that code is to leave a pixmap on the display after it exits
<ochosi> i thought the display-corruption was helped by using the gtkimage?
<ali1234> that may be just papering over it
<bluesabre> the GtkImage draws with Gtk, so it eliminates the corruption at least when viewing it at the login screen
<bluesabre> it will probably come back with drawing using cairo/x
<ali1234> i don't think it is the way it is drawn
<ochosi> and the leak will only be 1 image instead of all the images that were seen in the greeter by switching users
<ali1234> i think it's the RetainPermanent followed by client disconnect
<ali1234> but i have no way to test
<ochosi> well i can switch to nouveau if it's just about needing a tester ;)
<ali1234> actually... this other computer i just found has nvidia onboard graphics
<ali1234> i can probably test on that if i update it
<ali1234> it's also on 12.04 though
<ochosi> fine by me, if it doesn't work for some reason and you need me as a nouveau tester after all, let me know
<ochosi> bluesabre: i think we should probably set up a shared branch
<ochosi> otherwise you'll always have to merge stuff back and forth
<bluesabre> probably
<bluesabre> I'll do that in a sec
<ochosi> cool, ty
<bluesabre> and that way I can leave tasks for you
<bluesabre> :D
<ochosi> :)
<ochosi> i added a funny list-mode to tabwin today
<bluesabre> https://code.launchpad.net/~lightdm-gtk-greeter-team/lightdm-gtk-greeter/gtk_image_background
<ochosi> http://www.zimagez.com/zimage/screenshot-11222013-122522pm.php
<ochosi> bluesabre: but ali1234 isn't part of the team yet so can't push, right? or is this a public branch?
<bluesabre> adding him now :>
<ochosi> nice
<bluesabre> btw, do you know who Adam Jiang is?
<ochosi> nope
<bluesabre> https://launchpad.net/~lightdm-gtk-greeter-team/+members#proposed
<ochosi> not the guy who wrote the another-lightdm-gtk-greeter
<ochosi> cause that guy's name is andrew
<bluesabre> interesting tabwin stuff
<ochosi> i'd like to add that as an option
<ochosi> it's actually quite a small code-change in the ochosi/tabwin branch
<ali1234> right, computer is set up
<ali1234> how do i set up lightdm/light-locker for testing?
<ochosi> ali1234: i usually just build with --prefix=/usr and then install it over the existing copy
<ochosi> if i want to revert, i just use apt-get install --reinstall
<ochosi> for light-locker it should suffice to use the daily-PPA, no need to build from source
<brainwash> ochosi: uhm, now I'm kinda lost, all this talk about the background issue
<ochosi> brainwash: if you wanna test a branch, this is the one: https://code.launchpad.net/~lightdm-gtk-greeter-team/lightdm-gtk-greeter/gtk_image_background
<bluesabre> wait a sec on that
<bluesabre> :)
<brainwash> ochosi: just tested the new xfdesktop (4.11) and it messes with the copy process of the root pixmap
<bluesabre> I might push a nice fix in a sec
<ochosi> brainwash: do you use xfdesktop from git or from the 4.12 ppa?
<brainwash> ppa
<ochosi> bluesabre: ah, yeah, i would've mentioned the caveat ;)
<ochosi> brainwash: mainly asking cause the interaction of greeter and xfdesktop only works with the patch for accountsservice
<ochosi> otherwise the user-wallpaper doesn't get set
<brainwash> it does get set
<ochosi> yeah, with the PPA version it should
<ochosi> so what's the problem with the root pixmap exactly?
<brainwash> xfdesktop crashes
<brainwash> because of the compositor coyping the root pixmap
<brainwash> tried to delay the launch of xfdesktop
<brainwash> but it did not work, let me try again
<brainwash> https://code.launchpad.net/~thad-fisch/lightdm-gtk-greeter/root-window
<ali1234> nope.
<ali1234> you can't delay xfdesktop
<ali1234> the greeter intentionally sets resources that stay around after it exits
<ali1234> the support for doing this seems very poor on nouveau
<brainwash> you cannot?
<ali1234> you can delay it
<ali1234> but you can't delay it until those pixmaps go away, because they never go away
<ochosi> i think the problem is xfwm4's compositor
<ochosi> cause it draws over the root pixmap in grey
<ali1234> i have noticed that
<ochosi> while it'd better do nothing i guess (at least in our case, where xfdesktop is in use)
<brainwash> yes, if xfdesktop launches while xfwm4 copies the root background, xfdesktop will crash
<bluesabre> seems a bit buggier, try this ochosi, ali1234: https://code.launchpad.net/~lightdm-gtk-greeter-team/lightdm-gtk-greeter/gtk_image_background
<ochosi> ali1234: so basically that grey flicker is what brainwash wants to get rid of :)
<ochosi> bluesabre: wait, buggier in what respect? :>
<ali1234> i've installed light-locker. how do i lock the screen?
<bluesabre> I think the grey flicker is the GtkWindow background color
<bluesabre> probably xfdesktop does show() before the background image is loaded I would guess
<ochosi> ali1234: after the light-locker process has been started, run "light-locker-command -l"
<ochosi> bluesabre: no, there really is a call in the compositor to draw the bg in that grey color
<bluesabre> oh
<bluesabre> thats terrible
<ochosi> :)
<bluesabre> btw, not buggier to where it doesn't work, but sometimes at first login the bg is just drawn as the bg-color
<ali1234> ok that works for me, no graphics corruption
<ochosi> well that's what you see when logging in normally
<bluesabre> still an improvement though
<ali1234> with the standard greeter that is
<ochosi> standard greeter?
<ali1234> the one from the install cd
<bluesabre> anyway, gotta run
<bluesabre> feel free to add any personal fixes or garnishes to that branch :)
<ochosi> okey :)
<ochosi> seeya later bluesabre 
<ochosi> and hf@work
<brainwash> bug 1232804
<ubottu> bug 1232804 in xfwm4 (Ubuntu) "Improve "login greeter -> desktop" transition in Xubuntu" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1232804
<brainwash> explains the grey background
<ali1234> if you kill xfdesktop and run some xsetroot commands, it doesn't change the root window colour, presumably because of this
<ali1234> you just see the grey
<ochosi> so that should probably really be fixed in xfwm4 then...
<ali1234> the grey is #7f7f7f
<ali1234> http://git.xfce.org/xfce/xfwm4/tree/src/compositor.c#n872
<ochosi> yup
<brainwash> how should it be fixed in xfwm4?
<ochosi> not sure
<brainwash> the code for copying the root background is already there
<brainwash> it works
<brainwash> but xfdesktop messes up
<brainwash> and in 4.11 xfdesktop messes up big time
<brainwash> why does it draw a white background?
<ali1234> so does it make any difference with any of the branches of the greeter?
<brainwash> now we have a grey and a white background...
<ochosi> ali1234: does what make any diff?
<brainwash> double flicker
<ali1234> does anything make any difference?
<ochosi> :D
<ali1234> because there's too many variables here
<ali1234> what exactly are the requirements?
<ochosi> well, i think with retaining the background in the greeter, letting xfwm4 copy the root pixmap and fixing xfdesktop to cooperate could do the trick (as far as i understood)
<ochosi> the requirements are a flicker-free login
<ali1234> and unlocking
<ochosi> yeah
<ochosi> although
<ochosi> unlocking is somewhat impossible
<ali1234> and also it shouldn't crash or display corrupted graphics
<ochosi> cause unlocking includes a VT-switch
<ochosi> so there will be a blank screen
<ochosi> yeah, not crashing and not corrupting the screen would be nice :)
<ali1234> nouveau just totally corrupted the display and froze the system
<ali1234> can we just say "nouveau isn't supported because it's crap"
<brainwash> on normal screen locking?
<ali1234> no just while i was trying to open firefox
<brainwash> it happened once for me after hibernate
<brainwash> scrambled screen
<ochosi> yeah
<ochosi> well getting it to work on everything else first and then trying to add some workarounds for nouveau would be nice
<ali1234> yeah
<ochosi> but i know it's not very stable...
<brainwash> this whole thing is somewhat messed up, we should not have started messing around with it :D
<ali1234> if we're getting corruption with nouveau, 99% it's a nouveau bug
<ochosi> brainwash: yeah, it's all *your* fault ;)
<brainwash> ochosi: do you know why xfdesktop behaves differently since 4.11?
<ochosi> no, i haven't looked at the changes
<ochosi> but i'm in touch with eric
<brainwash> what is the deal with the white background (overlay)?
<ochosi> so i can discuss this issue with him when he's back from his holiday
<ochosi> (~1-2weeks)
<ali1234> well, tell you what... i'll concentrate on this compositor thing
<ali1234> it's fine on nvidia...
<ochosi> sweet
<brainwash> so can we merge https://code.launchpad.net/~thad-fisch/lightdm-gtk-greeter/root-window ? this change alone does no harm
<brainwash> well, but on the other side, I'm not an expert, so it could be bad
<brainwash> :)
<ochosi> it doesnt look very harmful, but i'd prefer if ali1234 and bluesabre also took a look at it
<ochosi> the code is from xfwm4, right?
<brainwash> not directly, xfwm4 queries this X window property, so I simply set it for the lightdm background
<ochosi> yeah, that's what i meant
<ali1234> brainwash: what's the reasoning for it?
<brainwash> compositor.c
<brainwash> http://git.xfce.org/xfce/xfwm4/tree/src/compositor.c#n806
<brainwash> line 840
<brainwash> it worked nicely with the small startup delay added to xfdesktop 4.10
<ali1234> and this causes the crash when xfdesktop is starting?
<ochosi> so the fact that both xfwm4 and xfdesktop want to paint the root window causes the crash?
<ali1234> ok i see exactly what is happening
<ali1234> nah
<brainwash> yes, https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xfwm4/+bug/1232804/comments/3
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1232804 in xfwm4 (Ubuntu) "Improve "login greeter -> desktop" transition in Xubuntu" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<brainwash> comment 3
<ali1234> this might even explain the graphic corruption
<ali1234> i need to look at xfdesktop source...
<ochosi> oh the suspense...
<brainwash> but these changes are only tested by me so far, or do you mean that there is a general xfdesktop issue?
<ali1234> you have to think about how everything interacts
<ali1234> see
<ali1234> the greeter makes those RetainPermanent pixmaps
<ali1234> then xfwm4 starts up and reads the pixmap address for the root image
<ali1234> that's the RetainPermanent pixma the greeter stuffed in there
<ali1234> then it memcpys it
<ali1234> meanwhile xfdesktop starts up and also tries to set the root pixmap (presumably)
<ali1234> thus, we have a race condition, an un-owned pixmap that is likely to get freed at any time, and therefore some nasty invalid pointer operations
<brainwash> doesn't xfdesktop draw a new window?
<ali1234> the root window is the root window
<ali1234> who knows what it really does to it?
<ali1234> it does draw a new window but that isn't necessarily the only thing it does
<ali1234> so... time to look at the code
<brainwash> yes, so an extra delay fixed this
<brainwash> but xfdesktop 4.11 is different again
<brainwash> and we should focus on the 4.11 stuff, right?
<ali1234> yeah
<ali1234> actually i would be interested to see what happens if you disable xfdesktop completely and then retry all the branches on nouveau
<ali1234> i suspect xfdesktop is "cleaning" all the RetainPermanent pixmaps out
<ochosi> well that in itself is not a bad idea, eh?
<ali1234> it is
<elfy> knome: a 30 minute pong or you'll have to ping me again 
<ali1234> it is if xfwm4 is going to take a copy of the pointer
<ochosi> hm, all in all it's strange no-one noticed this before
<ali1234> yeah, i always think that
<ochosi> guess in most cases it doesn't cause huge problems
<ali1234> "how did this code *ever* work?"
<ochosi> :)
<ali1234> brainwash: so with that root properties patch, if you kill xfdesktop, do you still see your background?
<brainwash> ali1234: all I see is a white background
<ali1234> even with the older version?
<ochosi> or: you deactivate/uninstall xfdesktop and try again
<ochosi> then xfwm4 should show the wallpaper set by lightdm
<ochosi> (or did i misunderstand something?)
<ali1234> yes, it actually memcpy's the pixmap
<ali1234> or at least it tries to
<brainwash> why that?
<ali1234> well, i guess with a compositor you never see the true root window
<brainwash> right, thet's compositing
<ali1234> on intel i get a black screen if light-locker is installed
<ochosi> ali1234: you mean in the greeter? (as in: happening as it should)
<ochosi> i mean: does it blank the screen on locking
<ali1234> no i mean as in it boots up to a blank screen
<ali1234> and no matter what i do the screen stays blank
<ochosi> that's more than odd
<ochosi> can't say i get why that would happen
<ochosi> unless lightdm_greeter_get_lock_hint would return TRUE in any case
<ochosi> ali1234: did you check the /var/log/lightdm/* logs?
<ali1234> fixed it, i had to delete displays.xml
<brainwash> odd fix
<ali1234> hmm
<ElderDryas> Seeing as how pleia2 likes notes here rather than -ot (iirc), http://www.dedoimedo.com/computers/xubuntu-salamander.html
<ElderDryas> What you guys do, slip some I-Love-Xubuntu juice into his coffee?  He used to despise XFCE :)
<ochosi> ElderDryas: hehe, jolly-good read that
<slickymaster> ElderDryas, ochosi,  +1 on that
<ali1234> i never really thought xfce was any good until recently
<ali1234> 4.10 seems to have fixed many many bugs and it's actually viable now
<ElderDryas> 4.8 started it, 4.10 took it most of the way...now I look forward to 4.12.  But that seems a ways off now :(
<slickymaster> ochosi: ping
<ochosi> slickymaster: pong
<slickymaster> ochosi: looking at the code in http://git.xfce.org/apps/parole/tree/src/parole-player.c#n2441 I see that the Page Down key is for skip back 600 secs and the Page Up key is for the skip ahead 600 secs
<ochosi> exactly
<ochosi> 600secs = 10mins
<ochosi> (i guess that's easier to grasp for most ppl)
<slickymaster> ochosi: yeah, I know, but the thing is, I'm not discovering the keys for the seek medium options
<ochosi> it's ctrl+left/right
<ochosi> http://git.xfce.org/apps/parole/tree/src/parole-player.c#n2464
<ochosi> GDK_CONTROL_MASK
<slickymaster> ochosi: never mind, it was right in front of me
<ochosi> no problem
 * slickymaster thinks that he really needs a pair of glasses
<ochosi> actually it's good for you to know, because the show/hide menu shortcut is also CTRL+m
<slickymaster> yeah, that one I saw
<ochosi> cool
<slickymaster> i spent almost ten minutes looking at the switch block and was unable to see them, I really need glasses
<ochosi> hehe, that happens from time to time
<slickymaster> thanks, ochosi 
<ochosi> main question being: didn't you *see* it or couldn't you *read* it ;)
<ochosi> (only in the second case you *really* need glasses)
<slickymaster> ochosi: that's the million dollar question, isn't it?
<ochosi> hehe, i guess
<slickymaster> ochosi: just one other thing, is there any particular reason for the fact that the arrow keys (up, down, left and right) are italic formatted?
<slickymaster> I mean in http://smdavis.us/doku/doku.php?id=usage&#keyboard_shortcuts
<ochosi> let me check how other xfce projects did that
<ochosi> hm, i guess that was jjfrv8's decision
<ochosi> tbh i didn't really notice that before
<ochosi> i don't mind either formatting, but yeah, not sure the italics are needed
<slickymaster> ochosi: I don't think that it's visually coherent
<ochosi> then remove the italic formatting, i'm totally fine with that
<slickymaster> ok
<ochosi> jjfrv8: fyi ^
<slickymaster> ochosi: I think I've covered them all. Anyway it's at your disposal to check and review http://smdavis.us/doku/doku.php?id=usage&#keyboard_shortcuts
<slickymaster> please ping me in case I've skip anything or if you think that something needs to corrected
<slickymaster> I'll bbl, after dinner
<ochosi> slickymaster: thanks! and bon appetit
<ochosi> i'll be away for most of the rest of the weekend
<ochosi> returning on sunday evening
<slickymaster> ochosi: enjoy your weekend. We'll talk then
<ochosi> slickymaster: thanks you too! seeyq
<ochosi> seeya
<slickymaster> cy
<ochosi> bluesabre: i just reviewed slickymaster's addition of the playback kb-shortcuts and changed a few small details, care to review that? http://smdavis.us/doku/doku.php?id=usage&#keyboard_shortcuts
<ochosi> bluesabre: i think it's mostly fine and everything should be covered now, not sure about the "skip" wording (should it be "seek" instead?), i also noticed we don't have a shortcut for next/previous track
<ali1234> ok, getting good progress on this greeter stuff
<ochosi> ali1234: really? do tell!
<ali1234> i've got everything set up for testing, results are as expected
<ali1234> just testing the compositor pixmap memcpy stuff
<ali1234> brainwash' patch doesn't actually work, but the idea is right
<ali1234> we need to make the compositor copy the root window instead of just filling it with grey
<ochosi> indeed
<brainwash> why does it work for me?
<ali1234> brainwash: i dunno. if it's because "different drivers" then i will rage
<ali1234> i'll get to the bottom of it anyway
<brainwash> and why shouldn't it work? it's just setting a property..
<brainwash> =S
<ali1234> i dunno. all i know is that even with the patch applied i still get a grey root tile
<ali1234> i have not yet traced it to see exactly what is happening
<brainwash> you also recompiled xfwm4, right?
<ali1234> no, did you patch that too?
<brainwash> amg
<ali1234> or it needs none-default configuration options?
<brainwash> right, it's not a default compile option
<ali1234> well, that seems silly
<brainwash> read my bug report =S
<ali1234> so how do i do that? ./autogen.sh MONITOR_ROOT_PIXMAP=yes?
<brainwash> you need to define it
<ali1234> like, manually in the source code??
<ali1234> ah i see
<ali1234> this code doesn't just copy the background once
<ali1234> it updates it continuously, so that you really can see the root window at all times
<ali1234> we don't need that
<ali1234> we just want to copy it once
<ali1234> right, rebuilt it
<ali1234> it works... but
<ali1234> not very well
<ali1234> i also got xfdesktop crashes... but without updating to the newest version
<brainwash> comment 3?
<brainwash> it worked for me if I slightly delayed the launch of xfdesktop
<brainwash> I cannot get it to work properly, so it's not very likely that this "improvement" will make it into the final LTS release
<ali1234> that's just a workaround
<brainwash> yes
<brainwash> needs to be implemented properly or not at all
<ali1234> brainwash: xfdesktop already has a patch that makes it wait for 5 seconds after xfwm4 starts
<brainwash> ali1234: right, does it work?
<ali1234> well, obviously not
<ali1234> what i do see is that xfdesktop also uses those desktop pixmap atoms atoms
<ali1234> aaaaaaaaaaaaah
<ali1234> https://mail.gnome.org/archives/wm-spec-list/2002-January/msg00001.html <- this thread explains a lot of things
<ali1234> one of which is that if xfdesktop wants to set the root pixmap that way it is doing it, it is liable to get killed later on
<ali1234> right... i think i understand the problem
<ali1234> yeah... fixed
<ali1234> so the thing is, if you enable MONITOR_ROOT_PIXMAP it does just that. it doesn't just copy the pixmap one time at startup
<ali1234> it also enables a bunch of other code, and that other code is what causes the crash
<ali1234> and it isn't really a crash, it's actually defined behaviour
<ali1234> because now xfwm4 and xfdesktop both try to control the root pixmap, they fight eachother
<ali1234> so the fix is to enable that first copy at startup only
<ali1234> and not the other stuff
<ali1234> basically the problem is they all try to manipulate the root bg pixmap, and they all use a different standard to do it
<ali1234> they should all use the same standard, and then everything will be fine
<ali1234> also none of them follows the standard they picked quite correctly
<brainwash> ok, finally we (actually you) understand what is going on :)
<ali1234> the good news is this is totally fixable
<ali1234> it probably also explains why the corrupted graphics on nouveau
<ali1234> it all comes down to those RetainPermanent pixmaps. that's a standard, but there's no standard way to manage them once you've created one on the root
<ali1234> oh the other good thing about this is that fixing it will also fix the greeter memory leak
<ali1234> without having to implement gtk images etc
<brainwash> I will test your magical fix then :)
<brainwash> if it's ready
<ali1234> brainwash: basically, instead of #define MONITOR_ROOT_PIXMAP, remove the #ifdefs from root_tile() only
<ali1234> and that's it
<pleia2> drc: thanks :)
<drc> pleia2: you're welcome...for what?
<pleia2> drc: dedoimedo link, added to press page
<drc> oh...yeah...You'll have to forgive me, that was this morning and my wife says goldfish have a longer memory than I do :)
<pleia2> hehe
<brainwash> bug 1254087
<ubottu> bug 1254087 in xfce4-whiskermenu-plugin (Ubuntu) "[wishlist] Option to Use Whiskermenu as Desktop Menu" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1254087
<Noskcaj> brainwash, I saw that, how hard would it be to fix?
<ali1234> i pushed the root pixmap fix to my xfwm4 zoom2 branch
<brainwash> don't know, but why replace the xfdesktop right-click menu?!
<brainwash> ali1234: got any prebuild packages too?
<ali1234> no
<ali1234> you still need to patch the greeter to set the atom too
<brainwash> because many people need to test this stuff :)
<ali1234> but that needs "improving"
<brainwash> currently everything is a bit messy, branches and fixes everywhere
 * ali1234 pokes #ubuntu-x for information
<Noskcaj> brainwash, the bug is about right-click>Applications>
<brainwash> mmh, so xfdesktop would need support for the whisker panel plugin
<brainwash> reassign the report to xfdesktop?
<ali1234> hmm... i'm going to look at what unity-greeter does wrt RetainPermanent
<ali1234> we should support whatever they do too, if they use different atoms
<brainwash> different? xfwm4 only checks for 2 I think
<brainwash> oh RetainPermanent
<ali1234> yeah there's at least 4 different ones
<ali1234> (xfdesktop checks for 2 different ones)
<ali1234> basically you make a RetainPermanent pixmap and then stuff it's X resource ID into an atom so you can find it again later
<ali1234> but every desktop uses a different atom for this
<ali1234> unity-greeter defines RetainPermanent but does not use it
<ali1234> so now i'm really puzzled
<ali1234> it looks like compiz just copies whatever is on the screen at startup
<ali1234> no checking of atoms
<ali1234> it does monitor atoms for later background changes though
<brainwash> and gdm/mutter? :P
<ali1234> who cares about them?
<knome> bluesabre, pleia2: either/both of you around?
<knome> jjfrv8, or you? :)
<pleia2> you're supposed to say what you want first so I can figure out whether to say yes
<knome> nah, not saying is part of my evil plan!
 * skellat is lurking
<knome> skellat, i don't specifically need you at the moment but if you have anything you'd like to discuss, i'm here!
<knome> pleia2, do you have time to go through the blueprints today?
<pleia2> maybe after work
<knome> what UTC is that?
<pleia2> 1
<knome> umph
<knome> might not be around at that time today
<knome> but we can look at it later, no hurry
<pleia2> sunday would be better
<knome> (and i could have a quick stab at it myself as well)
<pleia2> knome: lmk when you publish testing post
<knome> ah, i could do that soonish
<knome> are you lurking around?
<pleia2> yeah
<knome> i'm probably doing it in the next 30mins
<knome> perfect, i'll ping you then :)
<knome> heh, ok, so ~ubuntu-testcase is going to be removed ;)
<knome> does anybody see any reason for ~xubuntu-dev to be a member of ~xubuntu-team?
<knome> everybody in ~xubuntu-dev is explicitly a member of -team as well (except people who are in ~dev because of other team memberships)
<knome> if we drop the membership of ~xubuntu-dev, then LP would show the real amount of -team members
<ali1234> here's a tonne of information about this: https://github.com/mate-desktop/mate-desktop/pull/46
<knome> pleia2, prodded out http://xubuntu.org/news/help-us-test-xubuntu-14-04-lts/
<knome> and tweeted
<ali1234> hmm you know what? i think this code from xfwm4 MONITOR_ROOT_PIXMAP was written by someone who was very confused, and they just got the atom names wrong
<slickymaster> night all
<pleia2> knome: thanks
<knome> np
<knome> hey slickymaster 
<slickymaster> hi, knome 
<knome> slickymaster, has elfy been in contact with you since yesterday yet?
<slickymaster> knome, no
<knome> slickymaster, ok, let him take the time then :)
<slickymaster> knome, ok
<slickymaster> is there any problem?
<knome> slickymaster, not at all!
<slickymaster> ok
<slickymaster> ochosi, saw the changes you made on to the playback table on http://smdavis.us/doku/doku.php?id=usage#keyboard_shortcuts and I must say that you were right from the beginning
<slickymaster> ochosi, people can understand 10 mins but probably wouldn't understand 600 secs
<slickymaster> ochosi, good call
<ali1234> ochosi: i summarized all my knowledge about the greeter pixmap stuff on the bug report, if you don't wanna read all the scrollback: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xfwm4/+bug/1232804/+attachment/3899352/+files/xsetroot.patch
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1232804 in xfwm4 (Ubuntu) "Improve "login greeter -> desktop" transition in Xubuntu" [Undecided,Confirmed]
#xubuntu-devel 2013-11-23
<pleia2> aww, sabdfl sends his love to the flavors in his uds keynote
 * pleia2 is about 4 days behind
<Unit193> Still ahead of me.
<brainwash> ali1234: amazing job so far, great comments and helpful links. so it looks like there will be a solution pretty "soon"
<brainwash> ali1234: so which branches/code needs to be tested now (lightdm-gtk-greeter and xfwm4)? links please :)
<elfy> knome: ty - I see the xubuntu.org got updated
<knome> np
<elfy> I see you warned slicky I was looking for him too :p
<knome> mhm, fair enough ;)
<elfy> he he he 
<jjfrv8> knome, you were looking for me?
<ali1234> brainwash: i'm just working on the greeter code to fix that up. for now you can test https://github.com/ali1234/xfwm4/tree/zoom2
<ali1234> this doesn't look as bad as it did last night
<ali1234> greeter should be using XROOTPMAP_ID and ESETROOT_PMAP_ID, then it's resources can get cleared properly
<ali1234> the xfwm4 code looks fine - it doesn't ever set the background, so really it only needs to look at XROOTPMAP_ID, which is same in both standards
<jjfrv8> bblte
<ali1234> hahaha...
<ali1234> so the ugly code in lightdm-gtk-greeter was lifted straight from gnome... the fixes made in mate are exactly the same ones we need
<bluesabre> the greeter or xfwm?
<ali1234> greeter
<ali1234> https://github.com/jasmineaura/mate-desktop/blob/2876f1eba73c126cfc6017856345e7eebe6d8d61/libmate-desktop/mate-bg.c#L1116
<ali1234> code looks familiar...
<bluesabre> a bit! :)
<ali1234> i wish people would document when they copy & paste code
<ali1234> it would make fixing it so much easier
<bluesabre> true
<bluesabre> I think I'll start doing that in the future :D
<ali1234> heh... even this fixed code appears to have bugs
<ali1234> eg it frees the old background before setting the new one, causing some ugly corruption
<ali1234> hmm that's interesting... the greeter actually restarts each time you change user selection
<ali1234> oh dear
<ali1234> this "fixed" code actually doesn't work at all
<ali1234> it doesn't ever create the atoms, so they never exist, so the code does nothing
<ali1234> oh well, i fixed it
<ali1234> heh, this bug was already fixed in mate :)
<brainwash> ali1234: you should consider becoming a member of the lightdm gtk greeter team
<ali1234> i thought you added me :)
<brainwash> unofficially :D
<ali1234> i just realised something: xfwm does not memcpy the pixmap, it memcpys the pixmap's ID
<ali1234> so that can go invalid later one
<ali1234> hmm. greeter is still leaking memory
<ali1234> but the good news is it no longer leaks X client connections
<ali1234> cool... 2000 background changes, memory use did not increase :)
<arielsanflo> hello
<TheMaster> Howdy.
<arielsanflo> i am from colombia
<arielsanflo> my english is so so
<andrzejr> hi, it seems that xubuntu 13.10 is still using xfce4-indicator-plugin 0.5, any reason you can't upgrade to 1.0?
<andrzejr> 1.0 has e.g. gui for black/white-listing indicators, people are asking me how to do it since 13.10 has been released.
<skellat> andrzejr: Will it require bringing GTK3 in?
<Noskcaj> IIRC 1.0 was the last gtk2 release, and is what debian has
<Noskcaj> No one got around to fixing the xubuntu patch, so we never got it
<TheMaster> I thought the idea was to get it in backports, but Mica kept being busy at work.
<Noskcaj> something like that (i thought 2.1 was for backports though). 
<Noskcaj> We need a way to get micah or lionel to stop having lives and do more xubuntu stuff. 
<andrzejr> skellat, no, 1.x branch is reserved for gtk2 versions.
<andrzejr> I know there is a long term plan of switching to 2.x (gtk3) but this is progressing slowly, and meanwhile gtk2 users are left behind.
<skellat> Right now we don't have 1.0 in the Ubuntu archive
<skellat> So we need to get that in for Trusty and then it can be backported
<andrzejr> Ah, I though you tried 1.0 and found issues with it.
<skellat> I just don't see any action on our end since May 2013 comparing the two changelogs.  We've got Ubuntu deltas to the Debian package.  http://changelogs.ubuntu.com/changelogs/pool/universe/x/xfce4-indicator-plugin/xfce4-indicator-plugin_0.5.0-2ubuntu2/changelog
<andrzejr> skellat, do you think that could be done anytime soon?
<ali1234> right. lightdm-gtk-greeter is finally not leaking at all, anything, ever : https://code.launchpad.net/~a-j-buxton/lightdm-gtk-greeter/experimental
<ali1234> the next question is how to make xfwm4 and xfdesktop cooperate with this
<ochosi> ali1234: you actually were already added to the lightdm-gtk-greeter team, so feel free to push to a branch there
<ali1234> i don't really know how to be honest
<arielsanflo> hello
<arielsanflo> i am from colombia 
<arielsanflo> no speack english
<arielsanflo> help 
<Noskcaj> hey arielsanflo 
<arielsanflo> software center
<arielsanflo> no funciona
<arielsanflo> en ubuntu 14.04
<Noskcaj> arielsanflo, you want #ubuntu
<ochosi> ali1234: you can go to the branch bluesabre created on the lp-website and it should tell you an example bzr push line
<drc> !es
<ubottu> En la mayorÃ­a de los canales de Ubuntu, se habla sÃ³lo en inglÃ©s. Si busca ayuda en espaÃ±ol entre al canal #ubuntu-es; escriba "/join #ubuntu-es" (sin comillas) y presione intro.
<arielsanflo> yes 
<ochosi> ali1234: sry, am on an ipad here, so cant really help more...
<arielsanflo> de haya me mandaron aca
<drc> ping GridCube 
<ali1234> ochosi: so i just push to ~lightdm-gtk-greeter-team insetad ~a-j-buxton?
<drc> arielsanflo: For technical support for xubuntu join #xubuntu, for 14.04 support, #ubuntu+1.  Both channels, however, are primarily in English
<arielsanflo> drc thanks
<ali1234> if you are trying to install commercial stuff, you probably won't find it in the software center in development releases (ie 14.04)
<arielsanflo> and I have this error when you upgrade
<arielsanflo> http://paste.ubuntu.com/6466158/
<GridCube> drc, pong
<drc> GridCube: I think arielsanflo needs some direction (in Spanish) on where to get support (apparently his/her English is not good enough to understand what was told).  Care to help him/her ?
<GridCube> oh, right
<GridCube> arielsanflo, hola como estÃ¡s, que problema parece que tenes?
<arielsanflo> gridcube
<arielsanflo> gracias
<arielsanflo> http://paste.ubuntu.com/6466158/
<arielsanflo> al hacer sudo apt-get update
<GridCube> arielsanflo, http://askubuntu.com/questions/120621/how-to-fix-duplicate-sources-list-entry
<knome> GridCube, this ain't a support channel though.
<GridCube> knome, he is in trusty tho
<GridCube> but you are right
<knome> nonetheless... ultimately, i don't expect anything in trusty to be very trusty yet :P
<knome> jjfrv8, hey... you happen to be around now? :)
<jjfrv8> knome, yes, just got back. What's up?
<arielsanflo> muachas gracias por la ayuda
<knome> jjfrv8, wondered if you'd be up for looking over the doc blueprint
<jjfrv8> you mean together?
<knome> yep :)
<jjfrv8> ok
#xubuntu-devel 2013-11-24
<jjfrv8> let me get there.
<knome> let me sit comfortably... on the floor
<knome> i'll pm you so we don't fill up the whole channel :)
<arielsanflo> help
<arielsanflo> http://paste.ubuntu.com/6466355/
<arielsanflo> please
<GridCube> arielsanflo, your installation is borked
<GridCube> reinstall the system again
<ali1234> that looks severely messed up. i would check for hardware failures
<ali1234> why is parole called parole?
<ali1234> "Parole is the provisional release of a  prisoner who agrees to certain conditions prior to the completion of the  maximum sentence period."
<ali1234> this seems like an odd name for a media player
<arielsanflo> muchas gracias por su ayuda
<GridCube> ali1234, i always though it comes from the italian "parole" thats something like "lyrics"
<GridCube> ali1234, http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/parole
<TheMaster> Xfce likes weird names like that and gigolo.
<GridCube> yeah, gigolo is also italian
<bluesabre> ali1234, ochosi: bzr push lp:~lightdm-gtk-greeter-team/lightdm-gtk-greeter/branch_name
<bluesabre> I'm around intermittently for the next while
<knome> hullo bluesabre 
<bluesabre> hey knome
<bluesabre> knome, working hard tonight?
<knome> nah ;)
<knome> well, kind of
<knome> i'll pm you in a minute
<bluesabre> oh noes
<knome> heh
<TheMaster> bluesabre: Well hey, now you can propose another merge, for seeding light-locker. :P
<bluesabre> TheMaster: I was hoping you would do that actually, since I know nothing about seeds
<knome> okay all, i'm off to bed
<knome> i'll be back tomorrow
<bluesabre> seeya knome
<knome> have a nice day bluesabre, jjfrv8, TheMaster, MickeySmith and all :)
<knome> ->
<MickeySmith> :D
<TheMaster> bluesabre: In theory it's pretty easy.
<bluesabre> TheMaster, in theory, yes :)
<bluesabre> but where are the seeds even stored?
<TheMaster> On launchpad.
<TheMaster> https://code.launchpad.net/~xubuntu-dev/ubuntu-seeds/xubuntu.trusty
<bluesabre> >.<
<Noskcaj> bluesabre, Should i prepare a bzr branch for bug 1254366
<ubottu> bug 1254366 in xfce4-session (Ubuntu) "Add support for light-locker in xflock4" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1254366
<bluesabre> Noskcaj, if you'd like, that'd be great :)
<Noskcaj> Is it fixed upstream?
<bluesabre> no, but I think this might be considered an ubuntu-specific patch
<TheMaster> bluesabre: Oh, heh.  I was mainly kidding.
<bluesabre> figured I would do something for a change, been lazy lately :)
<Noskcaj> bluesabre, Wouldn't debian benefit from it, or even everyone?
<Pwnna> can we add something like https://www.dropbox.com/s/fxjy8k6jnenmxh1/Screenshot%202013-11-23%2023.20.33.png to xubuntu?
<Pwnna> this is from mac
<brainwash> bluesabre: what about the xfce4-session option (session and startups > advanced) to lock the screen before suspend/hibernate? it does not affect light-locker I think, because light-locker listens to systemd dbus signals and always locks the screen in this case
<bluesabre> Noskcaj, I suppose that is true, I'll see about getting it upstream
<bluesabre> brainwash: you're right, so we don't have to worry about that
<bluesabre> as long as light-locker is running, it will lock when the computer suspends/hibernates
<bluesabre> though it would be good to make that configurable somehow
<bluesabre> with the xfce4-power-manager (and that really might be an ubuntu-specific patch, since light-locker is not an xfce project)
<bluesabre> ochosi, thoughts?
<jjfrv8> knome, fyi, I changed my lp name and haven't noticed any problems yet. It even changed automatically on my work items.
<jjfrv8> It gave me a warning that I might not be able to log into other OpenID sites afterwards but I don't think I'm affected by that.
<knome> jjfrv8, cool :)
<knome> jjfrv8, openid sites are ubuntu wiki, ubuntu pad and stuff like that
<pleia2> heh, I love how after years of resisting adding new wallpapers after users kept complaining, I now get ranted at about how we're wasting time with wallpapers
<pleia2> latest gem: http://princessleia.com/journal/?p=8733#comment-12500
<pleia2> (not really sure what that comment had to do with that post about Ubuntu, but apparently the internet is running out of places to rant in :))
<skellat> I'm not sure about this one over on AskUbuntu: http://askubuntu.com/q/339415/139532
<skellat> pleia2: That is a precious gem
<pleia2> odd that someone would think Ubuntu Tweak would work on Xubuntu
<skellat> Yeah
<skellat> pleia2: That blog comment you received is definitely a precious gem too
<pleia2> heh
<skellat> Well, when the docs get called crap
<skellat> And they call for us to just cast LTS designations aside if the release isn't "worthy" enough
<skellat> I dunno
<pleia2> and don't use a real name ;)
<skellat> Yeah
<skellat> Do we even have an ETA on 4.12?
<pleia2> nope
<ochosi> bluesabre: yeah, ubuntu-only patches i guess...
<skellat> We'll see if my PPA explodes: backportpackage -s trusty -d saucy -d precise -d quantal -d raring -y -u ppa:skellat/tests http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/universe/x/xfce4-whiskermenu-plugin/xfce4-whiskermenu-plugin_1.2.0-1.dsc
<knome> hey ochosi, pleia2, skellat 
<skellat> knome: Hi
<pleia2> hey knome 
<knome> pleia2's sunday <3
<pleia2> indeed
<pleia2> blueprints fun time?
<knome> yeah, was thinking about that :)
<knome> let me get me mouse
<slickymaster> good night all
<knome> hey slickymaster 
<slickymaster> hey knome 
<slickymaster> how's everyhting?
<slickymaster> elfy, I'm under the impression that you're looking for me. Ping me whenever you got the time
<ochosi> ali1234, bluesabre: i'll check out the greeter-progress tomorrow...
<knome> slickymaster, fine! were just working on something else, that's why a slow reply
<slickymaster> knome, np
<knome> ok, i'm off for now
<knome> see you all later
#xubuntu-devel 2014-11-17
<Unit193> http://git.xfce.org/xfce/xfdesktop/commit/?id=a4d701b2836724f101d319c11205fa03201134fb xfce 11306
<ubottu> xfce bug 11306 in General "Incorrect default app shown in file context menu with glib >= 2.41" [Minor,Resolved: fixed] https://bugzilla.xfce.org/show_bug.cgi?id=11306
<ochosi> morning folks
 * ochosi is still travelling today
<Unit193> Yey!
<ochosi> :)
<ochosi> will be back tomorrow or the latest wednesday though
<ochosi> re: docs, fwiw i agree, making the css more responsive is sufficient
<ochosi> and even that doesn't seem crucial to me
<ochosi> primarily, people are going to read/access the docs on the device they need it for
<knome> that would be relatively easy, so..
<slickymasterWork> but it's a great idea, and something we could/should try
<ochosi> i don't think many will take it with them on their holidays
<ochosi> on their ebook reader
<slickymasterWork> lol, that hardcore one just might ochosi ;)
<knome> converting to more formats we have to is just more work
<ochosi> exactly
<knome> so not sure if it's worth the maintaining
<ochosi> with dubious benefit
<knome> how many ebook readers are there which can't load a webpage?
<knome> kindle?
<knome> that's it?
 * ochosi doesn't have an ebook reader
<slickymasterWork> neither do I
<knome> me neither
<knome> "dave" on the mailing list said he accesses the docs on kindle or nexus7, when he couldn't access them online
<Unit193> The message from Dave is worth reading, and as long as you don't want me to make it more pretty than it is, I have a functional epub. :P
<knome> so one aspect of that is, i guess, being offline and not having access to the computer (because it's broken)
 * slickymasterWork hasn't received that message yet
<ochosi> knome: but i thought we cover that with offline docs already?
<knome> ochosi, yes, but note my note (pun not intended) about not having access to the computer (because it's "broken") and thus wanting to read the docs in the first place
<knome> but, corner case
<knome> i would definitely say the whole ebook stuff is a corner case
<ochosi> yup
<knome> i would be much more interesting in considering a PDF format
<ochosi> +1
<slickymasterWork> and eventually with a potential scarce audience
<knome> but getting that in the shape i want to...
<ochosi> can we maybe export the html to pdf in a sensible way?
<knome> we can export the docbook markup to pdf directly afaik
<knome> but that doesn't mean it'll look good
<slickymasterWork> I think that what the former ubuntu manual team used to fo
<slickymasterWork> s/fo/do
<knome> there should be some kind of automatic intelligence that is able to recognize orphan rows, for example
<slickymasterWork> we could ask godbyk about it
<knome> nah
<knome> i can just look for it
<Unit193> Ask the docs lead.
<ochosi> anyway, i would agree it's not really our highest priority
<knome> added a work item
<ochosi> doing the css part makes sense though
<knome> yep
<ochosi> does our website work with smaller devices in general?
<knome> ochosi, no
<slickymasterWork> not on my Samsung
<knome> ochosi, it has some very simple responsive design applied to it currently
<knome> the docs is different
<knome> that's so much easier to make responsive
<ochosi> from my pov, that would have a larger target audience than just the docs
<ochosi> but still low priority
<knome> sure, that's a work item for me already as well
<ochosi> at least as long as xubuntu isn't available/usable for tablets ;)
<knome> i've been thinking about it when i've had time along the way
<ochosi> </sarcasm>
<knome> i wouldn't want xubuntu on my tablets, i rather put my plate on it
<knome> :PPP
<ochosi> whoa
<ochosi> :]
<ali1234> brb in 1 week
<bluesabre> maybe that should have been more of a "bbl"
<elfy> dkessel: looking at this bluetooth testcase bug - right click's not working here for me 
<dkessel> elfy: mh ok maybe some old settings on my machine
<elfy> I had to start bluetooth - all turned off here, left click on the bluetooth in settings did nothing - can't even get it on the panel to check there
<elfy> I assume you're not left=handed and swapped the buttons 
<knome> slickymasterWork, ochosi: the docs branch is updated with a responsive CSS file and some other improvements (see commit message and changelog for more information)
<elfy> I'll say thanks - I'm sure it'll be good for us :)
<knome> np :)
<knome> elfy, you can test it yourself too; get the branch, then open the documentation in a browser and strecth the window to be really narrow :)
<elfy> mmm
<elfy> you'd have to point me to the branch :)
<knome> bzr branch lp:xubuntu-docs
<elfy> knome: replicating a phone? is this what this is aimed at?
<knome> well, replicating any small-resolution situation
<slickymasterWork> great knome, I'll build them locally when I get home and see how it's working~
<elfy> yup - kind of where I was going - if you can read it on a smartphone - you can read it anywhere
<knome> i don't believe in special "phone versions" of websites, i rather just make the phone (browser) manufacturers make sure they follow the same rules as desktop browsers
<elfy> yep - but you know what this poor old man was saying ;)
<slickymasterWork> btw knome, I had a few minutes to investigate the export possibilities Docbook -> PDf, and as far as I've been able to see, most of them go through using LaTex
<elfy> mmm so poor old man needs to be pointed at where to open it from - getting xml errors :(
<slickymasterWork> knome, over at http://wiki.docbook.org/DocBookTools#Other_tools it's mentioned -> susedoc, a small documentation system which is used by SUSE. It consists of Makefiles and various scripts to convert DocBook XML sources into PDF, HTML or Manpages. Available for Linux only.
<slickymasterWork> but I haven't research it yet
<elfy> wb ochosi 
<elfy> if you're actually there ;)
<slickymaster> knome, I've tested your rev. 277 and it works
<slickymaster> great work, thanks for it
<slickymaster> elfy, I'm thinking of marking https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual-tests/+bug/1393204 either 'Incomplete' or 'Invalid'
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1393204 in Ubuntu Manual Tests "Blueman testcase (ID 1591) : wrong mouse button for context menu" [Undecided,New]
<elfy> slickymaster: dkessel is going to double check - spoke earlier
<slickymaster> I commented on the bug report
<elfy> k - thanks slickymaster :)
<slickymaster> np
<elfy> :)
<elfy> jack's mp I commented on - don't think there's anything else currently
 * ochosi just arrived @home after 5 days of travelling
<ochosi> will probably need some time getting set up again
<slickymaster> yes, besides those and yours, that balloons reviewed there's nothing else
<ochosi> i'll check in with you guys tomorrow or so
<slickymaster> welcome back ochosi 
<elfy> ochosi: or Thursday or something, but welcome back regardless :)
<ochosi> ty :)
<ochosi> elfy: fwiw, i'll try to set up a real install of V within the next week
<elfy> thanks ;)
<elfy> I just worry ;)
<ochosi> i'll have to get rid of utopic though, but that's so last-cycle anyway...
<elfy> I won't say I still have my utopic at the moment then :p
<ochosi> :]
<ochosi> well i just wanna get back to more exploratory testing
<elfy> not booted it though 
 * slickymaster won't get rid of his trusty box
 * elfy still has trsuty - now having a 2 cycle old version - something I've not done since 2008 ish
<elfy> ochosi: funnily enough the first place that I'll see a reason not to apt-get upgrade is usually the mad +1 forum 
<ochosi> heh
<slickymaster> :)
<ochosi> yeah, frankly i've totally abandoned the forums due to lack of free time
<elfy> I always have a quick look in there to see if I should let x upgrade 
<ochosi> mm, makes sense
<elfy> I kind of can't abandon it ;)
#xubuntu-devel 2014-11-18
<elfy> ochosi: not sure where we left the ind panel crash issue - but I've had it again
<Unit193> libappindicator update doesn't look to be the problem.
<brainwash> ochosi: please add a comment to bug 1393767
<ubottu> bug 1393767 in light-locker-settings (Ubuntu) "[trusty] light-locker-settings may prevent xfpm to apply power source dependent monitor power management" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1393767
<brainwash> I doubt that we will backport anything to trusty, but I am not sure.
<slickymaster> dkessel, did you get to sort out if https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual-tests/+bug/1393204 is/was due to some misconfiguration on your machine?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1393204 in Ubuntu Manual Tests "Blueman testcase (ID 1591) : wrong mouse button for context menu" [Undecided,New]
<slickymaster> I'm inclined to mark it as 'Invalid'
<slickymaster> 23:02  slickymaster: knome, I've tested your rev. 277 and it works
<knome> slickymaster, ok, good
<slickymaster> about the artwork you're planning to add
<slickymaster> do you already have any drafts/ideas of what it will be?
<knome> i'm planning to make it abstract, so we don't have to update any screenshots for the documentation
<slickymaster> good
<knome> other than that, not really
 * slickymaster hopes knome will have Bauhaus school in mind
<slickymaster> ;)
<knome> maybe
<dkessel> slickymaster: i did not start any of my PC's the last two days, so no. I will try to get to it tomorrow.
<dkessel> Does any of you know which files I could check for wrote ng settings on my side?
<dkessel> I never used left handed mouse mode or something
<dkessel> wrong I meant
<dkessel> good night
<Unit193> Hrm, think Ubuntu devs would go for a git snapshot, 0ubuntu1 if the package is 100% unusable as of a few days ago?
<knome> depends on the package i guess
<Unit193> As of the 17th, the one in trusty, utopic, and vivid is broken.
<knome> of "the package" :P
<Unit193> Yeah, I got that part.  Was adding more information.
<knome> so, what are we talking about?
<bluesabre> hey all
<knome> hello bluesabre 
<Unit193> knome: Nothing much, gcalcli.
<Unit193> bluesabre: Howdy!
<bluesabre> I'll stop being a crappy dev-lead soon. Got training for the new job in the evenings this week, but should stabilize and return this weekend
<knome> :)
<bluesabre> or at least go back to the dev lead I was before, crappy or not :)
<knome> heh
<Unit193> bluesabre: I tricked someone to sync thunar-dropbox, if you wanted to "backport" to the PPA it mainly adds multiarch support, but up to you entirely.
<Unit193> Hah, nice. :D
<bluesabre> Unit193: cool, glad to hear
<bluesabre> will do just that (probably tonight)
<Logan_> Unit193: "tricked"
<Unit193> :D
<Unit193> Logan_: Hoped you'd see that. :D
<Logan_> :P
#xubuntu-devel 2014-11-19
<jjfrv8> bluesabre, running through the Parole testcase I noticed that the help docs could stand a few updates
<jjfrv8> one place is Preferences->Display. Video Output is new. If you want, I can make some edits to the docs but I wouldn't know how to explain the video output choices.
<jjfrv8> bblt
<Unit193> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/mugshot/+bug/1394064
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1394064 in mugshot (Ubuntu) "Mugshot fails to launch after clearing all user info fields (name, initials, email, etc)" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<ochosi> hey folks
<knome> hello ochosi 
<ochosi> hey pasi, what's up?
<knome> nothing special
<knome> and there?
<knome> finished traveling for a while?
<ochosi> yup, at least for a bit it'll be more quiet
<knome> great
<knome> did you check out my responsive-CSS commit for the docs?
<ochosi> not yet, only read about it
<ochosi> what would be the easiest way to do so?
<ochosi> or does it need extra testing before it'll land?
<knome> it's in trunk
<knome> bzr branch lp:xubuntu-docs && cd xubuntu-docs && make
<knome> then open build/desktop-guide/index.html in a browser
<ochosi> k
<knome> it probably needs some little tweaks
<knome> but they aren't anything that would break the experience or stop anybody from reading the docs with any device
<knome> i would say those are namely:
<knome> make the admonition graphics smaller
<knome> check the header line-heights
<ochosi> i got parsing errors when building
<knome> aha?
<ochosi> oh, i guess i don't have xml2po installed
<knome> oops ;)
<ochosi> no the package name by chance?
<knome> no
<knome> and don't "know" either
<ochosi> gnome-doc-utils apparently
<knome> we should really list those somewhere in the branch
<knome> :|
<knome> well debian/control tells that...
<knome> docbook-xml, docbook-xsl, xsltproc, gnome-doc-utils to build
<ochosi> looks good on the fake smartphone that chromium offers
<ochosi> fwiw, the (!) red attention icon has meanwhile been changed in elementary-xfce to a yellow triangle
<ochosi> also looks less like ERROR
<ochosi> would be nice to update/replace that
<knome> aha
<knome> point me to the new icon and i'll do it together with the other small changes
<ochosi> https://github.com/shimmerproject/elementary-xfce/blob/master/elementary-xfce/status/32/dialog-warning.svg
<ochosi> well replace 32 with the size you need obviously
<knome> no PNG? :P
<ochosi> wasn't sure what size the docs used
<ochosi> png is installed on your system ;)
<ochosi> so /usr/share/icons/elementary-xfce/..
<knome> dang, i thought you'd do the work for me :P
<ochosi> huhu
<ochosi> btw, is it a design decision that there's no visual hover effect on the hyperlinks in the docs?
<knome> i can't remember :P
<ochosi> :]
<knome> if you think it's an issue, i can look at it
<knome> fwiw, i still have the old icon :P
<knome> i'm running 14.04
<knome> humm
<knome> now tell me
<knome> we have caution.png and important.png with that icon
<knome> do you think i should just change both?
<knome> the "warning" symbol is a stop-sign
<ochosi> ehm
<ochosi> guess you gotta give me some example contexts they appear in
<knome> answer: i don't know
<knome> there's no way to know which situation it is except to look in the source
<knome> i don't even remeber if we use both tags
<ochosi> well better clean that up first then ;)
<knome> let's put it this way... do you think we would benefit of having the two different icons?
<ochosi> not really
<knome> ok, then i'll just replace both
<ochosi> thing is, that red circle looks too much like an error sign anyway, so it's best to get rid of it
<knome> heh
<knome> great, thunar crashed
<bluesabre> jjfrv8: won't be around today, but ochosi can help with Parole descriptions
<bluesabre> ochosi: sent a mail for some priority greeter bugs, lets take a look at those if possible.  I think https://bugs.launchpad.net/lightdm-gtk-greeter/+bug/1392367 might be the new black screen bug.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1392367 in LightDM GTK+ Greeter "SegFault in libgdk-3" [Undecided,New]
<bluesabre> gotta run, bbl
<ochosi> bluesabre: ok, thanks! commented on the bug. it's easily possible though that conky and the custom setup of the guy is involved in the segfault...
<elfy> wb ochosi :)
<ochosi> thanks (again) :)
<elfy> you seem to actually be here this time :p
<ochosi> yup
<ochosi> more or less
<knome> pushed new revision for docs
<knome> see commit message for the changes
<knome> ochosi, slickymaster:
<ochosi> knome: yup, new icon looks much better
<ochosi> bluesabre: i'm proposing to close this one as wontfix, lemme know whether you agree: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/light-locker-settings/+bug/1393767
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1393767 in light-locker-settings (Ubuntu) "[trusty] light-locker-settings may prevent xfpm to apply power source dependent monitor power management" [Undecided,New]
<jjfrv8> ochosi, bluesabre volunteered you to educate me on the new Video Output display setting in Parole
<jjfrv8> do you even want to update the docs to include that setting?
<ochosi> wait, can you really use the verb "volunteer" to "volunteer someone"? :)
<ochosi> ah right, yeah, that would probably make sense to reflect that in the online docs
<sidi_> ochosi, i have some laundry that needs volunteering btw.
 * sidi_ would like to start distributing the surveys to Xfce users, btw
<sidi_> you guys got your own site/blog/fb/g+ if i followed well?
<jjfrv8> ochosi, if you'd like, I could just add the screenshots and put some placeholder text on the staging site and you or bluesabre could fill in the technical details
<ochosi> ah sure, that sounds nice
<ochosi> thanks jjfrv8 
<ochosi> just ping me when it's ready
<ochosi> sidi_: yeah
<ochosi> twitter, g+, fb, blog
<ochosi> maybe even more, i'm not sure
<sidi_> ochosi, good. i'll make a list of the people i need to mail tonight then to ask for distribution
<sidi_> gotta not make this too xubuntu centric :-)
<jjfrv8> ochosi, ok, there are also a few minor changes needed in other sections. I'll do them and let you know when they're all ready.
<ochosi> sidi_: yeah, makes not to focus on a distro
<ochosi> jjfrv8: sweet! thanks a lot!
<slickymasterWork> knome, I'll check your commit tonight when I get home
<knome> slickymasterWork, ta
<slickymasterWork> and hi, too ;)
<slickymasterWork> dkessel, have you checked your 'Devices' tab in the 'Mouse and Touchpad' settings?
<knome> hullo
<dkessel> slickymasterWork: hello :) will do that when i retest for the bug... once i have managed to get my hands onto the machine this week...
<slickymasterWork> ok dkessel, ping me afterwards, so we can make a final judgment on your bug report
<elfy> ochosi:  bug1394314
<elfy> bug 1394314
<ubottu> bug 1394314 in xfce4-panel (Ubuntu) "wrapper-2.0 crashed with SIGSEGV in strrchr()" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1394314
<elfy> I redid it - marked my original as a dupe and made comment not to mark THIS one as a dupe 
<elfy> an issue which I'd lost for a while - but has now resurfaced for the last couple of days
<dkessel> slickymasterWork: could not reproduce the context menu bug anymore, marked it as invalid
<slickymasterWork> ok dkessel, thanks
<brainwash> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Upstream/Xfce might need a rework, the page was last updated back in 2009
<knome> it might need deleting
<brainwash> is it obsolete?
<brainwash> or do you mean "less is more"?
<knome> it's a bit meh
<brainwash> is anyone willing to improve this wiki page? I would just mess around with the structure and eventually give up
<knome> generally i think it would be much more useful to point to a page that explains how to use BUGZILLA, not the xfce wiki explicitly
<brainwash> maybe you are right
<knome> same goes for all bug trackers, just explain the software
<knome> maybe you could bring this up on #ubuntu-quality 
<brainwash> yeah, it's somehow strange that several of these wiki pages just explain how to use bugzilla
<Pwnna> does lightlocker leave logs?
<Pwnna> utopic, black screen bug is back
<dkessel> hmm should i report this repaint issue with thunar? https://imgur.com/OiGCnZT (the blur is made by me ;) basically, it is not redrawing dirty regions anymore...
<brainwash> dkessel: anymore? since when?
<dkessel> brainwash: well, this running instance is doing this...
<dkessel> brainwash: and opening new windows takes about 20 seconds
<brainwash> interesting
<brainwash> does killing all instances of thunar resolve the problem(s)?
<dkessel> but the new windows behave normally
<dkessel> i guess... let me try
<dkessel> yup. brainwash: could this be related to thumbnail creation? there was a new file in the folder
<brainwash> right, I was thinking about this too, or something caused by browsing network shares
<brainwash> or even local mounted devices
<brainwash> this buggy behavior should be reported, preferable upstream
<brainwash> the important thing is, you have to find a way to reproduce this bug :)
<dkessel> i was guessing so... ;)
 * dkessel looks up how to kill those thumbnails
<brainwash> Pwnna: black screen caused by suspend via lid close? do you maybe own a thinkpad?
<Pwnna> brainwash: yea 
<brainwash> yea to both questions?
<brainwash> people continue to add comments to the old launchpad report for trusty
<brainwash> there is also bug 1387413
<ubottu> bug 1387413 in xubuntu-default-settings (Ubuntu) "Black screen after wakeup from suspending by closing the laptop lid" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1387413
<slickymaster> knome, just build rev. 278
<slickymaster> everything looks ok
<knome> good
<knome> i'm now the maintainer for xfce twitter account too
<knome> how did this happen? :P
<dkessel> lol
<slickymaster> lol
<dkessel> said yes in the wrong moment? ;)
<slickymaster> where you engaged?
<dkessel> :D
<knome> dkessel, i guess.. :P
<knome> slickymaster, was i engaged with what? :P
<slickymaster> engaged in the sense that you were forced to
<knome> nah
<knome> things change
<slickymaster> :)
<knome> sidi, you should've sent the mail directly to -users
<knome> sidi, the end-user facing one
<sidi> ah crap
<sidi> thought its better to let you ACK and do it yourselves as im not Xub
<knome> hrr hrr
<Pwnna> brainwash: sorry for being AFK. but yes to both questions
<Pwnna> and which bug should i be adding comments to?
<Unit193> brainwash: Oh, and you asked me something about mate, could be an idea, but one that bluesabre should look at.
<brainwash> Pwnna: I suggest that you add comments to the new report. the old one is marked as fixed and it's not easy to follow the flood of comments
<Pwnna> brainwash: sure. i've been intermittenly reproducing the bug.
<Pwnna> i can sometimes reliably reproduce it, and then it goes away (however when i wake the screen is at minimum brightness)
<Pwnna> checked out /var/logs.. found nothing of interest so far
<brainwash> Unit193, bluesabre: mate-system-tools as replacement for gnome-system-tools (which is not maintained anymore)
<Pwnna> brainwash: are you the person reporting that new bug?
<Pwnna> do you have a thinkpad as well?
<Pwnna> there may be another minor bug for lightlocker
<brainwash> Pwnna: no, it's not me
<Pwnna> ok
<brainwash> personally I would just switch to another screen locker
<Pwnna> yeah
<Pwnna> me too
<Pwnna> but i'm lazy and i got my work around
<Pwnna> in addition, do we track this bug?
<Pwnna> https://bugzilla.xfce.org/show_bug.cgi?id=10373
<ubottu> bugzilla.xfce.org bug 10373 in General "libxfce4ui-4.11: 3bb8c7d breaks shortcuts with <Super> modifier" [Normal,New]
<Pwnna> there's https://bugs.launchpad.net/libxfce4ui/+bug/1303404 but there hasn't been an update for like. a release now
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1303404 in libxfce4ui "Hotkeys with <Super> modifier overriding each other" [Medium,Confirmed]
<brainwash> right, if no one is able/willing to fix it, then it will remain unfixed
<brainwash> I don't know if reverting the "faulty" commit is the right solution
<brainwash> Pwnna: I suggest that you talk to hjudt in #xfce-dev
#xubuntu-devel 2014-11-20
<Pwnna> well there's a hacked patch..
<Pwnna> yeah i'll find sometime this week maybe
<brainwash> Pwnna: or just add a comment to the upstream report to bump it
<Pwnna> i have done that :P
<Pwnna> i would go in to fix it, but so busy these days with school
<brainwash> ok then
<bluesabre> brainwash: go ahead and add the mate-system-tools to the dev blueprint, will check it out soon
<bluesabre> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/xubuntu-v-features
<knome> bluesabre, see #xfce-dev (which you are probably doing, since i highlighted you...)
<sidi> i love how xubuntu has forums in german, french and italian
<sidi> feel free to translate the UX survey announcements and post it there everyone :3
<knome> i'm sure the french forum would appreciate if i translated it to finnish and sent them that
<sidi> knome, i do love some finnish
<knome> sidi, kukapa ranskalainen ei :)
<sidi> knome, vittu perkele
<knome> sidi, stop swearing or i'll kick you out :P
<sidi> sorry im trying to reach out to you with the only 2 words i know
<knome> :|
<knome> not working
<sidi> it's... it's the ice hockey
<sidi> ...
<sidi> :/
<knome> sidi, yeah sure!
<knome> sidi, btw, you should join #xubuntu-offtopic :P
<Unit193> So we can troll him?
<knome> ssshh!
<brainwash> bluesabre: I'll have to take a look at mate-system-tools first. the package is new in vivid
<elfy> hey sidi 
<elfy> just in time :) next time you want to post something on ubuntuforums like that ask your tame uf admin
<knome> tame - so not elfy
<elfy> that'll be me - I've stuck it for a while so it stays on top where it is 
<slickymasterWork> lol
<elfy> heh
<sidi> hi there
<sidi> ask your tame uf admin?
<sidi> elfy, sorry i didnt get it
 * sidi also found the new ubuntuforums really strange
<slickymasterWork> sidi, please follow http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=434
<slickymasterWork> you're thread is now a sticky 
<slickymasterWork> thus getting some more visibility
<knome> s/you're/your/
<knome> s/a//
<knome> steve the sticky finger
 * slickymasterWork wonders how knome always manage to be around when someone mistype something :P 
<knome> manages*
<elfy> ha ha ha 
<knome> that's because i'm *always* around
<slickymasterWork> bah
<elfy> sidi: what do you mean the new uf? do you have another account already :(
<sidi> slickymaster, elfy, knome  for my defence I had to post on about 10 different forums + MLs + IRCs :P
<sidi> elfy, i had an account in 2009. i have no idea how to connect to it since I'm not a ubuntu one user, so I made a new account
<elfy> for which you must have made a u1 account :)
<knome> huzzah
<knome> :P
 * elfy hates sso
<knome> sidi, U1 = LP
<elfy> have I said that before?
 * knome loves SSO
<knome> not technically, but socially
<elfy> sidi: do you happen to remember the e-mail you used before?
<knome> sidi, or more accurately... LP = U1
<sidi> knome, so i could use my LP account...
<knome> sidi, YEAH!
<sidi> elfy, of course yeah i still use LP
<sidi> oh gosh
<knome> sidi, do you ever read my blog?
<elfy> sidi: point me to LP page :)
<knome> sidi, http://open.knome.fi/2014/02/23/logging-in-with-ubuntu-one/
<slickymasterWork> ah ah that's free advertising knome 
<knome> free advertising of a website that does not generate income
<knome> how WRONG and UNFAIR that is :P
<elfy> sidi: ok - so I can't deal with your account from LP information, but if you PM me on IRC I can try and get you into the old account - if you want
<sidi> elfy, i think i do know how to connect, i just hadnt realised i could use my LP account when trying to log in
<sidi> because its called something else now
<elfy> sidi: really - trust me - it's not that simple now :D
<knome> sidi, well technically LP == U1, but U1 != LP
<elfy> PM me if you want to sort it out :)
<sidi> elfy, if its not that simple i actively want not to sort it out ;D
<elfy> it's not simple for ME - all you have to do is say yes or no to something :p
<knome> sidi, just get it sorted out :P
<knome> lazy steve
<sidi> knome, what for? :P
<sidi> fine fine
<sidi> my LP account is ~sidi, email is sidnioulz@gmail.com
<sidi> it should be associated with sidi@xfce.org
<sidi> voila.
<elfy> yes I know all that ;)
<elfy> and sidi on the forum uses a completely different mail address :)
<sidi> does he? :P
<sidi> maybe that "sidi" isnt me you know
<elfy> there - you have a question to yes and no now :)
<elfy> indeed
<sidi> is there a Sidnioulz?
<elfy> hang on - I'll go searching for e-mail addresses 
<elfy> ahah
<elfy> you sound older on irc :p
<knome> lol
<elfy> sidi: so yea - Steve Dodier is the old account - with the gmail address
<elfy> you want it to keep the old address or the xfce one? 
<elfy> I'll be disabling one of them - so make up your mind which you want to use and which address and I'll do that 
<sidi> elfy, i was 5yo when i posted there
<sidi> I was naive and impulsive
<sidi> i want to keep sidnioulz@gmail.com
<elfy> in the old account? 
<sidi> im not sure?
<sidi> i dont know what you're doing and why something needs doing in the first place and im very confused
<slickymasterWork> ah ah ah ah
<knome> sidi, so you only have one account
<slickymasterWork> elfy, next time I mention anything about bumping something, remind me of this
<elfy> :)
<elfy> I wish I'd just said "Stick it" :p
<slickymasterWork> lmao
<slickymasterWork> \o/ sidi 
<sidi> slickymaster, :D
<jjfrv8> ochosi, bluesabre, revisions to Parole docs ready for your review on the staging site.
<jjfrv8> I threw in four screenies of the Display tab just to cover all contingencies. You can discard the ones you don't want.
<jjfrv8> Also, I noticed that the upstream version has duplicate Figure 3s on the Usage page but that's already been corrected on the staging site.
<jjfrv8> Just wanted to make sure that gets copied over when the other pages are ready.
<ochosi> jjfrv8: awesome! i was at a conference today all day and tomorrow again, but i'll check it on the weekend! it's much appreciated
#xubuntu-devel 2014-11-21
<sidi-valencia> https://forum.xfce.org/viewtopic.php?pid=35280#p35280 could use some testing/clearing up btw, not clear what works and what doesnt both for whisker-menu and for the original Xfce menu. It seems there are options but people can't find them. it'd be great if a bunch of testers try to edit menus, check if it works, and time yourselves doing so so we know if bug reports must be filled
<elfy> poor old sidi ... doesn't matter where he goes he get's renamed :D
<Guest83707> elfy, what do you mean
<Guest83707> oh
<Guest83707> crap
<elfy> :p
<Noskcaj> bluesabre, Can you please review lp:~noskcaj/ubuntu/vivid/xfce4-xkb-plugin/lp-733563 . Is it still a change we want?
#xubuntu-devel 2014-11-22
<pleia2> knome: my brain is too tired to know what to do with the 2 msgs in the -devel queue, halp!
<Unit193> pleia2: There was slight discussion on IRC about the epub docs, think people were leaning towards the idea that it'd not be as useful.  I had/have https://unit193.net/xubuntu/xubuntu-docs.epub
<forestpiskie> thanks jjfrv8 :)
<gompa> how would one request a package to made default in xubuntu ? ( i would love to see plank included by default)  (i dont know if this would even be possible so please bare with me) 
<ochosi> bluesabre: i guess you can mark this one as invalid (at least the way i understood/commented it): https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/menulibre/+bug/1324217
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1324217 in menulibre (Ubuntu) "Items not appearing in menu" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<jjfrv8> Afternoon, elfy. And speaking of Power Manager, did you want to do anything with testcase 1582? Both updating it and including it in a testsuite?
<elfy> jjfrv8: I guess so 
<jjfrv8> I can take a stab at the testcase and then you can decide if you want to do anything with it???
<elfy> jjfrv8: that would be \o/ :)
<jjfrv8> alrighty then
<elfy> easy enough to add the testcase to current list(s)
<elfy> jjfrv8: can you do a bug report to track it please
<jjfrv8> wilco
<elfy> ochosi: so I've finally found someone seeing the ind panel crash issue :)
<ochosi> hey elfy 
<ochosi> mkay, is that a good thing? :)
<ochosi> jjfrv8: looking at your docs now
<elfy> ochosi: would be if I could say "do this then it'll work" 
<ochosi> yeah, i'm planning to get 15.04 installed tomorrow, maybe i get it too and can then debug it a bit myself
<elfy> jjfrv8: re your abiword bug - I can't confirm that
<elfy> ochosi: this other one is in 14.10 
<ochosi> oh
<jjfrv8> elfy, have you used abiword at all yet on your install?  Once you fix it by creating/saving a new file, it doesn't seem to recur.
<ochosi> jjfrv8: ok, i think i know what screenshots to use. i just need to talk to bluesabre about setting up 0.7-specific docs
<jjfrv8> but right out of the box, it seems to happen every time.
<jjfrv8> ochosi, cool.
<elfy> jjfrv8: not used abiword here till I looked
<elfy> will have a look in vm 
<jjfrv8> hmmm, it seemed very reproducible for me like I reported, on three separate machines.
<ochosi> jjfrv8: one more thing, you mentioned (but i don't remember the details unfortunately) that there were other changes apart from the display tab as well
<jjfrv8> ochosi, one typo, added a ref to the third plugin, and screenshot of the new Help dropdown.
<ochosi> ok, so those are not 0.6 specific changes
<ochosi> where was the typo exactly?
<jjfrv8> I think on the intro. "control" -> "controlled"
<elfy> ochosi: so ... 14.04 not 14.10 ... 
<jjfrv8> ochosi, I'm not sure about when that third plugin appeared or "contents" was added to the Help menu.
<ochosi> since the third plugin is already in the 0.6 docs, i presume it was there already
<jjfrv8> okay, yeah, there was a description of it but it just didn't appear on the intro page.
<elfy> jjfrv8: today's daily, vbox, start abiword - start typing - no problems
<jjfrv8> huh
<ochosi> hmm, your screenshot for the help menu has slightly different font
<jjfrv8> you've got good eyes. I don't think I installed faenza for it.
<ochosi> the icons are fine
<ochosi> just the font is off
<ochosi> both in the window decoration and in the menu
<ochosi> ;)
<jjfrv8> I can redo it.
<ochosi> if you can, that'd be nice
<ochosi> meanwhile, I've set up basic 0.7 docs
<ochosi> http://docs.xfce.org/apps/parole/0.7/start
<ochosi> that
<ochosi> 's where your changes will go
<jjfrv8> k
<ochosi> need to update parole's help/docs link too and release 0.7.1 to give people access to these docs i guess
<jjfrv8> elfy, I just launched the 64-bit iso in vbox, selected Try, opened abiword and started typing - boom.
<elfy> jjfrv8: just tried again - nada 
<elfy> installing it 
<jjfrv8> wonder what could be different
<elfy> jjfrv8: just to double check - you open abiword, start typing and nothing shows, hit space and it opens a new abiword window where you can type?
<jjfrv8> all except for the last part. in the new window, the same thing happens, no characters appear and when you hit space, another window opens, etc.
<elfy> ok
<elfy> definitely not seeing anything like that
<jjfrv8> weird
<elfy> very
<elfy> jjfrv8: ok can confirm in clean install from today's daily
<jjfrv8> whew
<elfy> start abiword - type - nothing - hit space 15 times and get 15 new docs 
<jjfrv8> :)
<elfy> so ... was weird, now we can downgrade to just odd :)
<jjfrv8> hehe
<elfy> not sure why I didn't see it in the livesession nor on this install
<jjfrv8> yeah, i could be wrong but I saw if first on my desktop, it went away after doing a File->New, but then today, it seemed to be back when I just tried again.
<elfy> ok - rm'd the abiword local config - can confirm on this too
<elfy> right so here - file > new doesn't make a difference
<elfy> space creates a new doc
<elfy> then once you've been through it - works from then on
<elfy> obviously - remove the configs and you're back where you started
<jjfrv8> pardong my ignorance, where's the config?
<elfy> .config/abiword
<jjfrv8> yup
<jjfrv8> ochosi, I seem to remember having trouble getting the icons to show up on the menu dropdowns when I configured all the theme/font settings per the std.
<ochosi> jjfrv8: std? (s* transmitted disease? :))
<jjfrv8> that's why I ended up with the screenshot I did. only way I could get icons.  but I'll take another crack at it
<elfy> ochosi: lol 
<ochosi> newer gtk3 versions don't have icons in menus anymore
<jjfrv8> hehe
<ochosi> so that could be the reason you didn'*t see them
<ochosi> and if you don't have icons in the menu, nevermind, that's not a problem
<jjfrv8> it won't matter that it looks different from the others?
<ochosi> well, we can't really do much about that. we can consider adding a note somewhere about this, but i don't have good ideas on how to resolve that
<ochosi> maybe if we only update a single screenshot, it'd be better to try and keep it consistant
<ochosi> but if there comes another round of updates to the docs, we might just redo all the screenshots without icons then i guess..
<ochosi> actually, the playback bar looks slightly different in parole 0.7
<jjfrv8> noticed that too
<ochosi> but i don't think it's work redoing all screenshots just because of that
<jjfrv8> so just to make sure I'm following... are we leaving the one I uploaded, going back to the original, or am I doing another with no icons?
<ochosi> i guess we're gonna use the one you uploaded
<jjfrv8> works for me :)
<ochosi> or if i start to feel anal about the font being different, i can take a crack at redoing it myself
<ochosi> you didn't update the text though to reflect the "contents" menuitem
<jjfrv8> yeah, 'cause both Contents and About take you to the same place.
<ochosi> not really
<ochosi> about opens the about-dialog
<ochosi> (and then there's a link to the website, which is essentially the docs)
<ochosi> but still, it also holds license info, which the contents/docs doesn't
<jjfrv8> right, and the text specifically says you can get to the docs that way. I thought about revising it. Should have asked your opinion.
<ochosi> no worries
<ochosi> i just added in a sentence and i think it's fine-ish
<jjfrv8> cool
<ochosi> so far i've updated the display screener in 0.7 and added that new help menu
<ochosi> so i guess that should be up-to-date now
<ochosi> just need to modify parole's contents link to point to that version now
<ochosi> maybe we can automate that somehow, so it always points to the correct version automatically
<ochosi> bluesabre: i created separate docs for parole 0.7 based on the changes/screenshots jjfrv8 proposed. they're all here now: http://docs.xfce.org/apps/parole/0.7/ (mostly adding the video backend stuff and updating the help menu)
<ochosi> bluesabre: if you're fine with this, we should update the contents menu-item for the docs to point to 0.7 in git master, or maybe we can even find a way to automate this so it always points to the correct version..? (as you know not an autotools/makefile expert here :))
<ochosi> jjfrv8: ok, so i'm done with the updates, thanks a bunch for your help!
<jjfrv8> ochosi, quite welcome. Thanks for the feedback.
<elfy> jjfrv8: for what it's worth don't see that issue installing abiword in ubuntu 
<ochosi> jjfrv8: btw, if you feel motivated (and since you mentioned you were reviewing powerman-testcases, that one needs docs too
<ochosi> bluesabre: i obviously have a patch ready for the 0.7 switch in case we wanna do it by hand ;)
<jjfrv8> ochosi, I'll touch base with slickymaster on the powerman docs.
<ochosi> jjfrv8: so far not much has happened afaik
<ochosi> we've only set up the staging site
<jjfrv8> I think I saw that in my travels. I'll look it over - probably tomorrow.
<jjfrv8> bbl
<ochosi> cool, ttyl jjfrv8 
<ochosi> jjfrv8: this is where the staging site is at btw: http://smdavis.us/doku/doku.php?id=xfpm-docs:start
<habhatti> Hello everyone.
<ochosi> hi habhatti 
<pleia2> Unit193: when was that discussion? think you can link to it on the mailing list?
<sidi-valencia> ochosi, may i suggest some illustration on the frontpage too? makes the doc less stern and more attractive :P
<andrzejr> ochosi, any thoughts on my xfce4-dev ml comment?
<knome> pleia2, can approve sidnioulz (==sidi), the other one, meh
 * pleia2 opens admin dashboard again
<pleia2> maybe fwd the other to the user list
<knome> well,
<knome> it looks like they have a school assignment
<knome> if it's fwd'd to -users, i'm sure the flood of mail replies is the level of "meh"
<knome> though, what do i care, i'm not subscribed there
<knome> :|
<pleia2> yeah well, it's better for users than devel
<knome> sure, but
<pleia2> mailman's forwarding thing is not awesome
<knome> the reason i personally don't want to help people who just ask XYZ to get through their assignments is that i've seen enough people studying IT who have no skills, social, technical, or otherwise, and i would never want to work with them professionally, so i refuse to make more of those pass through their school
<knome> if they understood a small bit, they could either 1) find out theirself 2) ask better questions, eg. "why are you using the X model and not the Y model for CPU scheduling"
<pleia2> now it's in the -users queue and it is from the mailman user
<pleia2> ooh my lunch is here
<knome> woohoo. :)
<pleia2> I'll deal with this later
<skellat> Embrace "listadmin"
<skellat> I set up it for loco-contacts@l.u.c and loco-council@l.u.c and life is so much easier
<skellat> It is even a package in the archive!
<knome> any software can't remove the false expectations from the list users.
<skellat> No, it is a command line tool for admins to admin a mailing list
<skellat> If I end up with any more mailing lists, I'm just adding them there so it gives me the ability to work through all the queues in one shot
<skellat> A bunch of folks were raving about it on planet.debian.org a couple weeks ago
<skellat> LoCo Council gets some exciting spam, too
<knome> well i guess software doesn't make the decision making any easier either
<habhatti> Um, hello. Do you still need more testers?
<knome> habhatti, alwyas
<knome> always too..
<habhatti> Wonderful, is this the right channel for this?
<knome> yep
<knome> habhatti, you'll want to talk especially with elfy when he gets back
<habhatti> Thanks, I'll lurk in here then.
<knome> habhatti, great. if you have any questions, feel free to ask; we others can answer some too
<habhatti> Thanks, I'm going through the documentation for the QAtracker.
<sidi-valencia> ochosi, http://i.imgur.com/aghfsss.png?
#xubuntu-devel 2014-11-23
<bluesabre> hey everyone
<ochosi> hey bluesabre 
<bluesabre> I need to catch up seriously bad
<ochosi> yeah, those guys went crazy on #xfce-dev
<ochosi> not that you actually have any git logs to check, but there was a lot of talking (:
<bluesabre> I see that 
<bluesabre> Busy folks!
<ochosi> sidi-valencia: yeah, not a bad idea. but then we'd have to do that for all components which means more work. and currently not even all components have proper docs, so i'd rather start there...
<ochosi> andrzejr: yeah, saw that. i can't say i'm opposed to that, we could also try to be in sync with gnome/gtk, since that is a source of potential breakage
<ochosi> andrzejr: one problem is though that other distro-maintainers might complain about the syncing of release schedules with one distro, plus releasing not only a distro every six months plus also the DE itself might be too much work. after all, the xubuntu dev community isn't that big either
<ochosi> bluesabre: anyway, ping me when you're done reading, although i won't be around for *much* longer
<bluesabre> probably won't catch up so quickly.  Saw pings for parole 0.7 docs, go ahead and patch it :)
<bluesabre> anything else I need to do with that?
<ochosi> hm, not really. only if we want to we can try to find a sustainable automatic solution
<ochosi> but yeah, it'd be just one more thing to do when there's a version bump (relink to newest docs)
<bluesabre> yeah, on that same note, we'd also have to be more responsive with updating docs versions
<bluesabre> :)
<bluesabre> but if that's how we want to go, that should be pretty easy
<ochosi> not necessarily
<ochosi> we could make it fall back to the highest version
<ochosi> i mean highest available docs version
<ochosi> basically, keep the highest available (stable) docs version at apps/parole/start
<bluesabre> that makes sense to me
<ochosi> and only if there is an older or dev version put that in apps/parole/0.7/start
<ochosi> so when 0.7 becomes 0.8, we move the current "master" docs to parole/0.6 and copy 0.7 over to "master"
<ochosi> hm, the about dialog has a PACKAGE_VERSION
<ochosi> is it too hacky if i just crop out the first three characters from that?
<ochosi> bluesabre: ^
<bluesabre> we actually define it in the configure file, we can do some stuff at build time
<ochosi> PACKAGE_VERSION returns e.g. "0.7.0", but we always need the first three chars
<ochosi> unless we get >10
<ochosi> well yeah, that variable comes from the configure file i afaik
<ochosi> something like strncpy or strncat could be used i guess
<ochosi> one annoying thing about the docs is that with gtk>=3.12 there are no menuitem-icons anymore, so all the docs screenshots theoretically would have to be redone at some point, even if the UI doesn't massively change otherwise
<ochosi> (we could also just use less screenshots)
<ochosi> (e.g. for menus we don't necessarily need one as they're only lists)
<bluesabre> actually, I think we removed them ourselves because of gtk 3.12
<bluesabre> to keep things consistent for everyone
<ochosi> hmright, well doesn't really matter though, in the end it boils down to the screenshots in the docs adding maintenance load
<bluesabre> yup :)
<ochosi> i'll consider weeding out and redoing them for 0.8 then
<ochosi> (or asking jjfrv8 to do that :>)
<bluesabre> heh
<bluesabre> I'm hoping to actually get back in the xubuntu swing of things asap
<bluesabre> but trying to move/get ready for the new job has been a chore
 * skellat is having things break big time on the community governance side which is a mixed bag right now
 * skellat bemoans the lack of sound effects on IRC otherwise there would be copious playback of breaking glass...
<ochosi> bluesabre: yeah, i've gone through the same a few times in the last year, really sucks up a lot of time/energy...
<ochosi> you have my full sympathy
<ochosi> or empathy
<ochosi> or whatever *pathy you prefer
<ochosi> (psychopathy maybe?)
<Cykit> mhm
<bluesabre> any and all :D
<sidi-valencia> ochosi, i consent to doing it :-) just tell me which
<ochosi> sidi-valencia: for instance, the powerman docs are really out of date
<ochosi> mousepad doesn't even have any docs
<ochosi> etc etc
<ochosi> have your pick
<sidi-valencia> ahah fair enough
<sidi-valencia> could do it slowly
<ochosi> yeah, or very fast!
<sidi-valencia> just makes it more welcoming to look at the docs
<sidi-valencia> very fast is incompatible with my workload
<sidi-valencia> anyway
<sidi-valencia> gf is here
<bluesabre> doing it on docs.xfce or with the staging site?
<sidi-valencia> surprise visit
<sidi-valencia> ttyl :D
<ochosi> heh, hf sidi-valencia 
<ochosi> bluesabre: powerman docs on staging site. the header idea sidi wants to introduce would best be handled in some sort of template
<ochosi> otherwise it's an annoying code-block that has to be added to every /start page
<bluesabre> yeah
<bluesabre> well, if anybody needs an account, you're an admin on the staging site
<bluesabre> :)
<ochosi> yup :)
<ochosi> but not on docs.xfce
<bluesabre> okay, think I'm going to head to bed early.  Will pick up my tasks in the morning
<bluesabre> Have a good night everyone!
<ochosi> same here, night everyone
<pleia2> woo, finally have vivid marketing blueprint done
<pleia2> a month late
<habhatti> Hello.
<elfy> hello
<habhatti> Elfy: I was recommended to speak to you for helping out with testing.
<elfy> habhatti: yep you can
<elfy> what can you test? installing? applications? 
<habhatti> Both.
<elfy> ok
<elfy> are you able to run and use the dev release - or only able to do so with virtual machines?
<habhatti> I can do it in a VM for the moment.
<elfy> okey doke
<elfy> so, get the daily and install that in a vm - that will test the live session and one of the install tests
<elfy> then you can use apps in there to test them
<elfy> http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/milestones/326/builds
<elfy> xubuntu is at the bottom - pick 32 or 64 bit, there are download instructions once you are in either
<habhatti> Sounds good.
<elfy> I'm about off an on this morning 
<habhatti> Ok, thank you.
<elfy> habhatti: once you have downloaded whichever iso for testing - you don't need to download the whole thing again - it updates every day
<elfy> you can use zsync - which just grabs the difference 
<habhatti> ok
<ochosi> pleia2: congrats :)
<brainwash> bluesabre: looks like we cannot move xfdesktop4 4.11.8 to trusty-updates, because it does not fix the icon rearrange problem completely
<brainwash> bluesabre: also, what is the status of the weather-plugin for precise? do nothing until precise is EOL, mark it as won't fix or release an update before like next year?
<brainwash> it's just fair to inform the users which are still using precise. it's a LTS release after all
<bluesabre> brainwash: does xfdesktop fix the other issues though?  Seems like 2/3 (or whatever the ratio is) is better than nothing
<bluesabre> brainwash: I've been busy lately, will work on the weather plugin today, assuming I am not on the road all day again :)
<brainwash> bluesabre: I'm not sure about the other xfdesktop fixes which are mostly minor ones. The icon arrangement one is bothering many users and the new version seems to alter the bug or even introduce it to users which were not affected previously.
<bluesabre> ah, lovely
<knome> way
<knome> huh
<knome> missing a command char
<knome> see you later.
<habhatti> ?
<habhatti> Is it normal that the vivid roadmap appears blank for me?
<elfy> habhatti: where are you looking? 
<elfy> the xubuntu roadmap is indeed empty currently if that's what you mean
<elfy> blueprints are more or less done as far as I know - https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/topic-v-flavor-xubuntu
<habhatti> yes that's the one I was looking at 
<Pwnna> can anyone here reproduce https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubiquity/+bug/1395528
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1395528 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "Install getting stuck on choosing a security for luks (mount unknown filesystem type 'crypto_LUKS')" [Undecided,New]
<habhatti> Hello.
#xubuntu-devel 2015-11-16
<akxwi_dave> Howdo all..
<knome> good day
<akxwi_dave> morning
<flocculant> good day
<knome> hullo flocculant 
<flocculant> hi knome :)
<flocculant> knome: how much use would it be for team to know when test calls are going out? I can see it being helpful for people who fix and upload stuff 
<knome> guess it could be useful to have some kind of communication
<knome> so that developers would have time to fix bugs they intend to before testing
<flocculant> I enabled the calendar output on the qa trello board this morning so I get that in tbird - but perhaps we could add it to the team calendar
<knome> or do syncs or whatever
<knome> otoh, i don't know if that would make much of a difference - if they don't have time, they don't
<knome> yeah, we can do that
<knome> i just got to figure out how then...
<flocculant> though trello's not specific on what app is being tested 
<knome> yeah
<flocculant> https://trello.com/calendar/55b334f9c60b8b8c3d8238ce/52a3757d214733820a0023ea/887155a22b2671cc23503acf0ad18dca.ics
<knome> let's see...
<flocculant> is the iCal feed
<knome> flocculant, should show up in the tracker now :)
<flocculant> knome: thank you :)
<knome> np
<knome> happy with the color?
<flocculant> yea 
<knome> good
<flocculant> just glad it's not red :p
<knome> :D
<flocculant> knome: did you catch any of the rambling discussion krytarik and I got into the other day about the cont docs? 
<flocculant> which can in fact be boiled down to 1 statement and 1 question :D
<knome> i looked at it briefly but haven't read it throughout
<flocculant> well then simply :)
<flocculant> A team lead should get sign-off/review opportunity on a page that concerns them.
<knome> yep
<flocculant> Any reason why these pages need to have Xubuntu all over them? 
<flocculant> :)
 * knome shrugs
<knome> part of that is that the content is mostly copied from other sources
<flocculant> probably the qa ones are fullest - mostly copied from elsewhere :)
<flocculant> yea :)
<knome> so no readon
<knome> *reason
<knome> and for the review part
<knome> the MP review system can be used for other kind of reviews than technical
<flocculant> yea
<knome> so just push it in through an MP unless you have talked with the appropriate team lead
<flocculant> yep
<knome> so far i've just pushed things in without asking, because as said, it's just copies from other sources
<flocculant> yea I know 
<flocculant> just looking ahead some 
<knome> yep
<knome> same thing as alwyas
<flocculant> :)
<knome> sigh, always*
<flocculant> heh
<knome> team leads lead their team, no soloing
<flocculant> I wouldn't for instance notice an MP there unless I had done it myself 
<knome> of course not, since you aren't a reviewer
<flocculant> so perhaps team lead added as reviewer of changes concerning them 
<flocculant> anyway - as always it'll come out in the wash :)
<knome> our team is so small that i don't think this is even a sensible discusson in some sense, but if i see a change that concerns QA that i know that isn't ran through you, be sure i'll poke you
<knome> and i expect slickyma1ter to do the exact same thing
<flocculant> yep that works of course
<knome> if a non-team member pushes an MP, then it's weird enough anyway
<flocculant> yea
<flocculant> I agree the team is small and we all talk to each other anyway
<flocculant> btw - I subscribed to that fop bug - not likely to be too much of an issue now for anyone no pdf's, but if it's still dying in 3 months 
<knome> the new fop is landing sooner or later
<knome> it's in proposed and FTBFS, but it's on its way
<knome> once the versions match, the pdfs will build again
<flocculant> yea I know 
<knome> but yeah, good to track it
<knome> the bug can be even added to our blueprints
<flocculant> was just thinking that 
<flocculant> then I can stop marking the mail unread :p
<knome> yup :P
<flocculant> done :)
<flocculant> then undone and redone somewhere else :)
<knome> heh
<flocculant> added it to the doc bp rather than the bug one
<knome> yes, probably appropriate that way
<knome> but ultimately - who cares ;)
<flocculant> yep
<knome> it's true what simon said - i've used LP less now that we have the tracker
<flocculant> same
<knome> the old tracker couldn't exactly do that
<flocculant> one bookmark instead of 7 or 8 for a start :)
<knome> there were still situations when it was easier to look at LP
<knome> heh, yeah
<knome> i wouldn't even need a bookmark
<flocculant> well me neither now - tr in the url bar will bring it up first :)
<knome> location bar -> tr -> most used link
<flocculant> that's what I meant :)
<knome> see #xubuntu-offtopic and my lag whine
<knome> :P
<flocculant> they'll show up eventually with dates
<flocculant> welcome back akxwi_dave :)
<akxwi_dave> afternoon flocculant 
<akxwi_dave> well thats another stupid windows server that went stupid due to an update...
<flocculant> ooops
<akxwi_dave> tell me.. luckily they are all virtual servers and snapshots.. so didn't take too long to sort out.
<flocculant> :)
<flocculant> akxwi_dave: I replied 
<akxwi_dave> cheers flocculant 
<akxwi_dave> just about to send the email to the dev list
<flocculant> excellent :)
<akxwi_dave> and sent :-)
<flocculant> cool - did the poll thing :)
<akxwi_dave> cheers.. though i'd better answer it as well
<flocculant> akxwi_dave: maybe add that people can join the channel easily via the tracker IRC tab 
<flocculant> we've had 9 people join the testers lp group this cycle
<flocculant> akxwi_dave: well that's good we can both be there any time :p
<flocculant> akxwi_dave: not sure if I said, but I added you to the QA trello thing - so you can do whatever there 
<akxwi_dave> thx,  thats good 9 new testers...
<akxwi_dave> What is it with Windows Servers today.. The SQL servers just thrown a wobbly, seriously some one needs to write a Legal Practice Management System for Linux.  
<flocculant> akxwi_dave: I forwarded the session mail to users
<akxwi_dave> thx
<flocculant> akxwi_dave: not sure about mailing the testers LP page about how to test :)
<akxwi_dave> ;-)
<akxwi_dave> thx
<SwissBot> feed xubuntu-docs had 4 updates, showing the latest 3
<flocculant> wut? 
<flocculant> why does that keep repeating old stuff ... unless because I use the same branch name *shrug*
<flocculant> akxwi_dave: nice one from zleap :)
<akxwi_dave> time to go.. cya all later
<flocculant> cya :)
<dkessel> i think i forgot to thank bluesabre for enabling gtk3 builds of mousepad in the ppa; thank you, bluesabre :)
<dkessel> it enabled me to get started on an autopilot. now i only have to fight bugs and missing features in the testing tools to get the manual test implemented as an automatic one...
<flocculant> dkessel: that's the first positive thing I've heard about our apps :)
<knome> well i can tell a lot of positive things about our apps
<knome> negative too, though..
<flocculant> I can tell lots of negative in relation to autotesting - nice to see something positive 
<knome> ;)
<ochosi> late evening all
<ochosi> what's new?
<knome> everything that is not old
<knome> (ta-dahhhh!)
<bluesabre> hey everyone
<bluesabre> dkessel: np
<Unit193> bluesabre: My KY weirdo!
<bluesabre> :D
<knome> hullo bluesabre 
<bluesabre> hey Unit193, knome 
#xubuntu-devel 2015-11-17
<flocculant> knome: could you twit the irc session for testers please
<flocculant> ochosi: ^^ on google + :)
<flocculant> no idea how to get anyone to do facebook 
<flocculant> knome: something up with the wp bit for our site?
<flocculant> got a warning  - then it appears to want to be http://www.ubuntu.com/wp-admin/profile.php 
<knome> flocculant, WP was set up to a new environment yesterday by canonical IS (i was contacted with them)
<knome> flocculant, if you can, please send me an email with exact steps you took and the errors you got
<knome> gosh, mailman definitely doesn't handle html mail graciously
<knome> https://twitter.com/Xubuntu/status/666554165884264448
<knome> flocculant, ^
<knome> bbl
<flocculant> knome: you haz mail
<flocculant> and thanks 
<bluesabre> AOL 2015, "Sup, wb. You haz mail. LOL. YOLO."
<bluesabre> though, I wonder if AOL commercials are lost on folks on this channel
<bluesabre> :D
<Akxwi-dave> nah.. not lost.. used to use aol and compuserve in the good old days, on a 4800 modem
<knome> flocculant, ygm too :P
<knome> and with that, bbl
<flocculant> knome: ACK
<flocculant> oops
<flocculant> pleia2: sorry - but holstein's nto been about for ages and I have no way to contact the other facebook contact - can you copy the twitter testing session to fb please :)
<pleia2> flocculant: sure
<flocculant> thanks :)
<pleia2> flocculant: he's on freenode (in #ubuntu-news and a few other places), so just a PM away :)
<flocculant> holstein ?
<pleia2> yes
<pleia2> dunno why he doesn't hang out here anymore
<flocculant> oh right - not seen him around for an age here 
<pleia2> which reminds me, if any other team members want to help me with fb, you're welcome to it
<flocculant> not sure whether he's in studio channel 
<flocculant> pleia2: heh :)
<pleia2> ok, shared to fb and g+
<flocculant> pleia2: thanks :)
<pleia2> sure
<flocculant> we got it on something that's very close to being almost local to me as well :D
<pleia2> hm?
<flocculant> http://torbaytechjam.org.uk/other-events/
<flocculant> not far (ish) away from me
<pleia2> ah :)
<Unit193> Uhh, anyone up for pinging?  slang is active.
<knome> pleia2, what's your schedule today then?
<knome> flocculant, should be fixed "later this week"
<flocculant> right
<Unit193> Pinged in -devel, should be on his queue.
<flocculant> nice to see people interested enough in testing for us to go to some website and fill things in 
<flocculant> 2 turned up there since twit/fb/g+ posts 
<pleia2> knome: kind of overwhelmed today and tomorrow, thursday around this time should be better
<knome> pleia2, ok
#xubuntu-devel 2015-11-18
<bluesabre> evening folks
<Unit193> bluesabre: Hi.
<bluesabre> Unit193: hi.
<slickymasterWork> flocculant, claimed review of https://code.launchpad.net/~flocculant/xubuntu-docs/qa/+merge/277590
<slickymasterWork> I'll take a look at it tonight
<slickymasterWork> after the community work :P
<flocculant> ok - cya later
<slickymasterWork> hf flocculant 
<knome> i left a "few" comments there...
<knome> some of them you can ignore now - there is commentary on the direction we might want to the take the whole contributor docs
<knome> bbl
<slickymasterWork> ack knome 
<krytarik> knome: "i left a 'few' comments there..." - looks like LP ignored them as well. :P
<knome> oh
<knome> right
<knome> i should have hit save
<knome> SIGH
<krytarik> lol
<knome> i always forget that
<knome> oh
<knome> there they are
<knome> \o/
 * knome goes hit save
<krytarik> \o/
<knome> done
<knome> flocculant, the www. logging issue should be solved now
<flocculant> I left some replies to some comments
<flocculant> knome: ack
<knome> flocculant, you didn't
<knome> flocculant, hit save
<flocculant> hah
<knome> flocculant, re: linking; i mean do we want to keep making xref's to the spots that talk about ISO/package testing when we write about the
<knome> flocculant, and re: xfef markup, np; i know it's not mentioned anywhere (yet)
<knome> and re: the last comment, yes, let's see how it goes
<flocculant> knome: that's why I'm confused - there is no link to that? 
<knome> huh, now you lost me; re what was that? :D
<flocculant> Meta: Do we want to keep linking to the package and ISO testing sections?
<flocculant> that :)
<knome> ah
<knome> context:
<knome> <listitem><para>Scheduling of ISO, and when appropriate Package, Testing should take place amongst the QA Team.
<knome> question: do we want to do:
<knome> <listitem><para>Scheduling of <xref linkend="..." />, and when appropriate Package, Testing should take place amongst the QA Team.
<flocculant> no 
<knome> probably not here, but it was a more meta question for general use
<knome> eg. should we try to interlink as much as possible
<flocculant> imho these are cont docs not support - I would expect that someone contributing should be able to do so with the minimum of handholding
<knome> :)
<knome> it's not only handholding, in some places it's useful that you have the link to the target right there
<knome> at least imo
<flocculant> I'm +1 to linking to things once 
<knome> yep
<flocculant> but as testing is the subject of a chapter I'm pretty relaxed it's not linked there
<knome> mhm
<flocculant> oh 
<flocculant> mmm
<flocculant> no it's not :D
<flocculant> ok - I'll get links added 
<knome> :D
<knome> there's one problem with that
<knome> you can't affect the link text
<knome> so in some cases, you might just want to add a <note> for the xref's
<knome> but it really depends on the context
<flocculant> I might add a note to the top for the places QA needs to know about
<knome> yep
<knome> or maybe a section that lists them all
<knome> and a note that links to that
<flocculant> text full of links drives me nuts 
<knome> to save space
<knome> and effort...
<flocculant> knome: maybe that section should be elsewhere - Important Places or in the How to's 
<flocculant> just not call it How to's 
<knome> yes, maybe so
<flocculant> there's going to be other similar things come up in future I would guess
<flocculant> knome: I'll fix those things now - I'll add a section for links to one of mine for the moment, we can move it later when we decide one way or the other 
<knome> cheers
<flocculant> knome: done that for the moment then
<flocculant> and the odd fixes
<krytarik> knome: Btw, as much as I like having to work on my docs MP, but... :P - http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2015/11/13/%23xubuntu-devel.html#t14:52
<krytarik> + not
<krytarik> (Particularly the first question.)
<knome> probably
<knome> i'll get back to this later today
<knome> actually, i think i have 8 minutes now
<knome> :P
<knome> let's see...
<knome> actually, meh
<knome> there is no button for one-time export :(
<knome> i'll just set up the auto export
<knome> and let it run once
<knome> ok?
<knome> done
<knome> should happen some time soon
<knome> like, midnight UTC
<krytarik> Nah, like 6 AM UTC, but that's ok. :)
<krytarik> Thought there was though.
<knome> i thought too
<knome> there's that button for one-time imports
<krytarik> Eww, nope indeed - only "or requesting a one-off download through the web interface" - https://help.launchpad.net/Translations/YourProject/Exports
<knome> yep
<knome> that wouldn't be completely awful either, but meh, why detour
<krytarik> Yeah, no problem.
<krytarik> Also, flocculant's current MP should be merged by then too.
<knome> i can probably take care of that if slickymasterWork fails to do that :P
<knome> now... bbl
<knome> hf meanwhile
<slickymaster> knome, to what are you referring in "Do we want to keep linking to the package and ISO testing sections?"?
<knome> slickymaster, <xref ... />
<slickymaster> oh, ok
<slickymaster> I don't see any reason why he wouldn't, knome 
<slickymaster> I mean, it's just a link, nothing more
<knome> if you read the discussion in the backlog, you would notice he added the links now
<knome> aiui, haven't checked the new MP
<knome> or updated
<slickymaster> 7me hasn't read the backlog
<knome> sigh :)
<slickymaster> going to answer to your comment in the MP, knome 
<slickymaster> even because I won't merge it today
<knome> krytarik, SEE?!
<slickymaster> he also forgot to add that dot at the end of the paragraph
<krytarik> knome: Heh.
<slickymaster> what?????
<knome> nothing.
<krytarik> lol
<slickymaster> is there a poll running?
<slickymaster> what were the odds against merging it?
<knome> no poll, it was pure knowledge
<knome> that you would fail to merge it today
<slickymaster> it's not my fault
<knome> of *course* not :)
<knome> besides, we didn't bet for the reason
<slickymaster> the MP isn't ready for merge
<knome> well... you can merge it as is
<knome> :P
<knome> or fix it while merging
<slickymaster> most probably the later option
<slickymaster> flocculant, knome, I left some comments the MP
<knome> again? :P
<knome> slickymaster, did you click save?
<slickymaster> what again?
<knome> oh, for some reason they were hidden
<slickymaster> I hit CTRL+Enter
<slickymaster> in all cases it's mergerd
<slickymaster> -r
<knome> er mi gerd
<knome> :P
<slickymaster> :P
<knome> oh great
<knome> i just noticed there was a gig yesterday i would have wanted to attend
<knome> sigh
<slickymaster> -devel alert
<knome> oh
#xubuntu-devel 2015-11-19
<jjfrv8> flocculant, I guess you'll see the panel testcase bug and merge proposal for revision.
<jjfrv8> ochosi, xfpm 1.4.4 docs update ready for your review when you have a chance.
<flocculant> jjfrv8: thanks :) I'll sort it out later today
<flocculant> knome: is there are way to rename a wiki page? or just copy 
<flocculant> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WilyWerewolf/FinalRelease/Xubuntu to /ReleaseNotes/Xubuntu
<zequence> flocculant: It's in the menu, under "More Actions"
<zequence> You won't see it while editing.
<flocculant> zequence: I see that now
<flocculant> however it tells me the page already exists - but it doesn't :(
<zequence> Renaming usually works. Not sure why you are having problems
 * flocculant neither
<flocculant> thanks for telling me though
<flocculant> did it the other way for the moment 
<zequence> I was thinking maybe it had something to do with there not existing a page called /ReleaseNotes, but haven't tried that before. You were able to create a new page though?
<knome> flocculant, as zequence said, renaming doesn't work when the target page has existed before; just copy-paste the page contents in the edit window over
<flocculant> knome: ack - didn't know the why - dealt with it that way
<jjfrv8> ochosi, re xfpm, thanks to the link on the Developer Area page of the website, I see that 1.5.2 is already upstream.
<jjfrv8> ochosi, and of course it looks different. How do you want to handle that? Skip 1.4.4 altogether?
<ochosi> jjfrv8: it does look a bit different, but it shouldn't be all-too different. since docs are versioned, we can leave 1.4 and 1.5 alongside each other in docs.xfce.org
<ochosi> jjfrv8: also, 1.5 is a development release (stable releases are evenly numbered), so i guess we won't have it in 16.04
<ochosi> (unless there's a 1.6 release in time)
<jjfrv8> ochosi, ok, thanks. So if it looks like a new one will make it into 16.04, we can address it then. Not much would have to change with the text, just the screenshots.
<flocculant> jjfrv8: thanks - all merged now
<flocculant> pleia2: I got a mail in the newsletter queue re the IRC test session
<pleia2> flocculant: cool, approved
<flocculant> thanks :)
<flocculant> don't really want to run it for 3 people :D
<pleia2> I'd show up for support, but airplanes, as usual
<flocculant> :)
<knome> i can join and ask stupid questions
<knome> :Ã
<flocculant> :D
<pleia2> I retweeted with comment too just now
<flocculant> thanks pleia2 :)
<pleia2> twitter web ui has gone all sideways
<drc> flocculant: How many "confirmed and active" testers do you have now.  My guess would be that 3 more folks willing to at least show up would be a 33%-50% improvement,
<flocculant> wouldn't know 
<flocculant> drc: that would be a pretty accurate guess 
<knome> pleia2, retweeted your retweet with a comment
<knome> but didn't comment on it...
<pleia2> how meta
<knome> (i'm sorry failing to be that silly)
<flocculant> drc: the thing in this case being have 2 people hang about for maybe 3 people to show up - we could just as easily answer 3 mails to the list 
<flocculant> hence getting it on UWN etc 
<drc> OK...I was just wondering why, after cycles of QAL's complaining about not having enough testers, one would say "Sorry, we don't have enough people present for us to train".
<drc> And with that I'll leave.
<knome> hit and run, the usual strategy here.
<krytarik> flocculant, knome, slickymaster: Please check and tell me if you're fine with the some additional changes I did to the contributor docs, particularly the QA Team page - alongside and incl. fixing DocBook syntax, reducing duplication of "Xubuntu", increasing consistency, and fixing typos: http://paste.openstack.org/show/cblQfn6zn9PQbmIIoAJp/
<krytarik> (Other than that, and updating the translation templates, my MP is ready to go.)
<krytarik> - the
<knome> krytarik, the / in the "Mainly built ..." is intentional
<knome> the long version should read:
<knome> Mainly built for Xubuntu or almost only used by Xubuntu
<knome> if we spell Bazaar in the title, then i'd like a note that we will be referring to it with Bzr (or make the title "Bazaar (Bzr)"
<krytarik> I'd expand it to: "Mainly built for and [mainly] used by Xubuntu".
<krytarik> Yeah, some note would be nice.
<knome> "top directory" ?
<krytarik> Yes.
<knome> not "branch root directory"
<knome> or sth
<krytarik> Well, didn't want to duplicate "branch" there - had though.
<knome> if you want to use top, make sure "root" isn't used anywhere else - i'm pretty sure i'm using that at least in one place
<krytarik> Alright.
<knome> "Translation Guidelines ..." -> "Translation guidelines ..."
<knome> but
<knome> "Working with testcases" -> "Working with Testcases"
<knome> wut? :P
<krytarik> Well, those are different parts of the docs. :P
<knome> :P
<krytarik> Didn't want to make all the same there, that is. :D
<knome> aha..
<krytarik> Basically, for one chapter it should be the same.
<knome> in XSD, if "Xubuntu Community" -> "Community", then i think we should go further and change it to "Community Organization" or sth
<knome> organization is bad, but maybe that gives you an idea what i'm thinking about
<slickymaster> krytarik, why the extra line between the titles and the paragraphs?
<krytarik> knome: "Structure" maybe?
<krytarik> slickymaster: It's common for the docs, it seems.
<knome> something like that
<knome> slickymaster, that's what we've been doing
<slickymaster> haven't noticed that yet, tbh
<knome> krytarik, maybe, though the section isn't really talking much about the structure
<krytarik> knome: "do the following in the branch root" - I think that can stay as is.
<slickymaster> one other thing krytarik "...the QA team should keep watch on testing reports on the trackers..." 
<krytarik> knome: Yep, and I'm not convinced we should add anything there.
<knome> slickymaster, always a blank line after </title>, </para>, </itemizedlist>, </note> etc. unless the next line is </section>, </chapter>, </appendix>
<slickymaster> shouldn't be "...the QA team should keep a watch on testing reports on the trackers..."
<knome> krytarik, no, definitely not add (but i should look at the wording on the users section, it's silly now
<knome> it gives the impression that the xubuntu users only "organize" via the LP team
<knome> which is far from the reality
<krytarik> slickymaster: Yeah, wasn't particularly sure whether that's acceptable as is, or what else flocculant would prefer. :P
<knome> it's probably the last thing our users use for organizing
<slickymaster> add it before pushing your MP knome 
<slickymaster> sorry krytarik 
<knome> :P
<slickymaster> damn autocompletion
<knome> pebkac
<krytarik> knome: Otoh, I only dropped "Xubuntu" there. :P
<knome> krytarik, i know, but it felt better...
<knome> :P
<knome> or maybe the title was bad to begin with
<krytarik> Hah, everything is always better with Xubuntu! :D
<knome> except...nevermind
<krytarik> slickymaster: Yeah, maybe just add an "a" there.
<slickymaster> hmm why do you capitalized Testcases and went the other way around in guidelines, krytarik?
<slickymaster> distraction?
<knome> slickymaster, ffs, read the backlog?
<knome> slickymaster, i literally JUST asked him about that
<slickymaster> too tired
<krytarik> knome: Oh, since you're referring to the branch root with what I just posted, and it's the intro to that list, we could as well not mention it again for the 'add' command.
 * knome slaps slickymaster 
<knome> krytarik, yeah, maybe :)
<krytarik> Didn't notice it then, that is.
<knome> i haven't been putting *too* much thought into any of it yet, tbh
<knome> my intention has just been to increase the amount of content (well, with useful subjects)
 * slickymaster is way to tired to reab the backlog and is simpler if krytarik just answers
<slickymaster> * read
<krytarik> slickymaster: In short, different chapters, different consistency. :P
<krytarik> Didn't want to change unnecessarily much, that is.
<knome> krytarik, ultimately, shouldn't all chapters have the same rules/consistency?
<krytarik> Yeah, but â. :P
<slickymaster> also krytarik, "...about required testing, Testers..."
<knome> i know, but it has to be done at some point :P
<krytarik> I mean, it also looks rather weird with some headers.
<slickymaster> is that intentional? I mean the capitalized T in testers
<krytarik> Particularly the longer ones.
<knome> yeah...
<krytarik> slickymaster: Yes, referring to a group there.
<knome> mmeh.
<knome> we have "Xubuntu Developers" group too, but we aren't talking about Developers
<knome> (if we're going this nitpicky road)
<krytarik> knome: "When you have worked on a branch and want to push your changes to a branch, do the following in the branch root:" - heh, there is no "branch" duplication *at all* there! :P
<knome> NO!
<krytarik> lol
<knome> When you have worked on your changes and want push them to a remote branch, do the following on the local branch root:
<bluesabre> hi
<knome> hello bluesabre 
<bluesabre> :D
<bluesabre> whats up knome, krytarik ?
<knome> north
<krytarik> Yep, similar thought. :D
<slickymaster> on my end I don't object to krytarik's wording
<slickymaster> hey bluesabre 
<bluesabre> ooh and slickymaster 
<slickymaster> that is to mean that I'm fine with his chnages
<krytarik> "Testers will get regular contact from us, but we should only, in general, call on Users at later stages." - particularly, it's also used to differentiate there.
<knome> i would personally lowercase all mentions of Testers, Developers or whatever, even if they are referring to a group, as long as they make sense in lowercase
<knome> eg. if we had a group called "Xubuntu Bulldozers", saying "bulldozers" would not make sense because it wouldn't be obvious if we were referring to the group or the machine :P
<bluesabre> proper nouns
<bluesabre> Xubuntu Testers != Xubuntu testers
<knome> krytarik, in the case you mentioned, it might be better to open it up
<knome> bluesabre, did you see my comment about Developers/developers before?
<bluesabre> I see the one just above, yes
<knome> :P
<krytarik> slickymaster: Well, I've just gone with "should keep an eye on testing reports" - between the two. :P
<krytarik> + now
#xubuntu-devel 2015-11-20
<krytarik> knome: Also, would you be fine with "Common Tasks", rather than "How to..."?
<knome> mmmmmh.
<knome> maybe.
<knome> the current title isn't meant to be final
<krytarik> Yeah, just looks and feels weird.
<krytarik> knome: "<para>Bazaar is a version control system and is commonly referred to as Bzr.</para>" - what should I use for "Bzr" there? I see that flocculant uses '<emphasis>' for the QA docs, but that also makes the text bold.
<knome> hmm.
<knome> <application>?
<knome> makes it bold too, but meh
<krytarik> Also, was that a "Yes, meh, go ahead."? :P
<knome> i would probably put this inside a <note>
<knome> i think <app is better
<krytarik> Isn't that a bit too much?
<knome> nah, it's fine
<knome> it's not a section you are likely to read over and over again
<knome> at least from the beginning to the end
<krytarik> Alright, I'll do as you suggested then.
<krytarik> Just to be clear, that's on the top just under the "Bazaar" header.
<knome> yep
<knome> also, what about calling the howto section "Reference" ?
<krytarik> Hmm.
<krytarik> Well, I can just leave that to you for later. :P
<krytarik> Seriously though, I guess that'd be still be than "How to". :D
<krytarik> - be
<krytarik> "Common Reference" at least?
<knome> wfm
<krytarik> Alright.
<krytarik> knome: Fine if I rename "processes-release-cycle.xml" to just "release-cycle.xml", consistent to its title and HTML file name?
<knome> the filename is referring to a potential structure for the docs, so let's keep it as it is for now
<krytarik> Alright.
 * krytarik reverts
<knome> time to go to bed
<knome> thanks for all the work :)
<krytarik> Well. :D
<krytarik> And night.
<knome> ttyl ->
<krytarik> And if no one wants to beat me to it, I might include command line instructions for the MP part.
<krytarik> (Done.)
<krytarik> flocculant: This is just for again now, updated: http://paste.openstack.org/show/E3wgCHbwYFoQRZcJrpKf/
<flocculant> krytarik - "tell me if you're fine with the some additional changes" can't tell the difference between green, darker green, pink, darker pink, if something changed, what changed on that pastebin thing - so no.
<flocculant> really can't see what's going on with the light green/pink stuff :(
<flocculant> I find MPs a whole lot easier to read :)
<knome> flocculant, actually, i find the pastebin better to read than the MPs in most of the places
<knome> flocculant, glossary:
<knome> flocculant, light pink -> line that has been changed or removed
<knome> flocculant, light green -> line that has been changed (the new version) or added
<knome> these are basically the pink/green colors of MP
<knome> flocculant, the dark pink/green areas highlight the spot in the line(s) that has been changed
<knome> flocculant, so you don't exactly have to review the whole line
<flocculant> krytarik - mmm actually what's "bzr commit --fixes" about and why the need to change that? Given that none of anything else I've read requires that
<flocculant> knome: but what about lines where there's no dark pink/green
<knome> flocculant, context, like in the MP
<flocculant> anyway - whatever - when there's actually an MP for it - I'll look then properly
<flocculant> knome: this is what's confusing me then - because there are at least 2 cases where there are changes and no dark green/red 
<knome> yeah :)
<flocculant> anyway - whatever - when there's actually an MP for it - I'll look then properly :)
<knome> yep
<flocculant> until I see that I'm not approving anything from my side 
<knome> lol
<flocculant> obviously I don't care about the <!Entity stuff :)
<knome> yeah
<flocculant> too care about that I'd need an explanation of something that I don't care to know about :p
<krytarik> flocculant: "this is what's confusing me then - because there are a
<krytarik> t least 2 cases where there are changes and no dark green/red" - yeah, those are the annoying cases where it doesn't figure out what really changed, for some reason. :P
<krytarik> Bleh.
<krytarik> Also, the '--fixes' option for commits should set the referred bug report status to 'Fix Committed' automatically, while for the MP it just links it to the bug report - as mentioned in both text parts.
<krytarik> flocculant: And of course, I didn't do any *factual* changes, only DocBook syntax, link anchor texts as mentioned before, consistency, wording, and typos.
<slickymasterWork> krytarik, did you push the MP yet?
<krytarik> Well, the bug status is only changed when the concerning commit is merged into the main branch, of course - and for no packages it should be set to 'Fix Released' then immediately.
<krytarik> slickymasterWork: Nope, just started the day. :P
<slickymasterWork> good life :P
<krytarik> Well, 3 hours ago, but... :D
<krytarik> Also, just doing some minor improvements on my yesterday's changes/additions.
<slickymasterWork> drop a link after you made them, please
<krytarik> Also, I have no particular idea yet how to include all the recent stuff in the commit message, or changelog even. :P
<krytarik> slickymasterWork: Nope, I'm never dropping a link to you! :D
<slickymasterWork> whatever
 * krytarik pats slickymasterWork
<slickymasterWork> :P
<flocculant> krytarik: ok - so with --fixes definitely don't want to use that 
<krytarik> flocculant: Umm, I don't get it.
<flocculant> "And of course, I didn't do any *factual* changes," yes you did ^^
<krytarik> Where?
<flocculant> please leave that bzr line as I had it - thanks 
<krytarik> *Changes*.
<flocculant> ^^
<flocculant> other than that - the rest is fine with me once I'd fought my way through the pink and green :)
<krytarik> Heh, alright.
<krytarik> flocculant: So, you aren't fixing the bug you just reported with the changes you are doing?
<flocculant> krytarik: there is a reason - pretty much pointless marking it Commited - nothing really happens to anything until someone physically edits the tracker side - at that point it's immediately fix released
<krytarik> Alright - so for you, it's just not 'needed'.
<flocculant> so all that marking them committed does is annoy me with pointless LP messages as I'm subscribed to it - as it's more or less me dealing with it
<flocculant> krytarik: not interested in a discussion on it - please lose that change in my qa docs ;)
<flocculant> but thanks for all the other bits and bobs - helps the readability :)
<krytarik> \o/
<flocculant> ha ha 
<flocculant> it's always useful for someone else to read things - you never 'read' what you wrote, you 'read' what you think you wrote :)
<flocculant> krytarik: and ftr - nice to know about --fixes, just doesn't really do much more than spam mailboxes in this particular thing
<krytarik> Well, you can read it, but extra work. :P
<krytarik> So, I have 'bzr commit -m "Fix LP bug #BUGNO."' now - fine?
<flocculant> no idea - if that's what it said before then yep :)
<krytarik> Well, it says 'bzr commit -m "Change re bug#' right now.
<flocculant> ok - happy with that newer wording :)
<krytarik> \o/ again.
<flocculant> it was the " those are the annoying cases where it doesn't figure out what really changed" which completely threw me :)
<krytarik> Yeah, like I said, it's annoying. :D
<flocculant> yep
<krytarik> I might try and use a plain one the next time then. :P
<flocculant> hah
<flocculant> well others like it that way - so don't change on my behalf ;)
<flocculant> I found that if I pretended to reply it sorted those things out 
<krytarik> Yeah, it kind of worked. :D
<krytarik> Added the '--fixes' part to the Common Reference now instead.
<flocculant> ok - that's probably useful stuff
<flocculant> ochosi: jenkins is getting closer for the image tests
<krytarik> flocculant: And sorry, I was more thinking there of how I'm mentioning the '--fixes' option in the MP part of the Common Reference - that was a factual change indeed.
<flocculant> krytarik: yea understand that - but Common Reference isn't something I'm too bothered about :)
<krytarik> You mean not? :D
<krytarik> Oh wait, no. :P
<flocculant> no - I mean what I said :D
<flocculant> :)
<flocculant> the QA pages isn't something I'm not too bothered about :D
<krytarik> Hence I didn't think of having changed the command there, that is.
<flocculant> :)
<krytarik> hahaha
<krytarik> flocculant: Noticed what I did with the <para>'s there though?
<flocculant> ish
<flocculant> no - not really
<flocculant> if I was to be more honest :p
<krytarik> That is, rather than enclosing lists and such, just end it where the current paragraph ends.
<flocculant> yea sort of noticed 
<flocculant> but as I'm unlikely to be doing much more didn't do more than *shrug* don't know why that is :)
<krytarik> It was fine on the other two pages though.
<sidi> is there any known problem with the lock screen on Xubuntu Trusty? keeps tellng me "This session is locked, youll be redirected bla bla" on my Trusty VM after I unlock the session
<knome> sidi, you should know better that this is no support channel
<flocculant> ochosi: so is this a gtk3 fail? http://i.imgur.com/1KLCHmU.png
<flocculant> guessing so - got some updates for it today
<Unit193> Go to GTK3 they said, it'll be better they said...
<flocculant> :)
<flocculant> I'd report it if I knew which one out of thousands to report it against ... 
<flocculant> calc is awesome :p http://i.imgur.com/guBwH2V.png
<krytarik> flocculant: How about 'gtk+3.0'?
<Unit193> Unless, the theme...
<flocculant> http://i.imgur.com/eWl3d8R.png
<flocculant> calc in numix
<flocculant> adwaita it's the same as greybird
<flocculant> krytarik: can't ubuntu-bug gtk3.0
<krytarik> flocculant: With the plus even?
<flocculant> nope
<pleia2> knome: if you have some time this afternoon, I'm around
<knome> pleia2, "afternoon"?
<flocculant> :)
<pleia2> knome: well, whatever time it is right now :)
<knome> just past midnight
<knome> but i'm here
<pleia2> what are we supposed to talk about?
<knome> lol
<knome> wait, i'll untangle my headphones first
<knome> ok
<knome> so, i guess the first thing is getting the contributor docs live/online
<pleia2> ok
<knome> they are in the docs branch
<knome> we don't have a completely workflow yet for that
 * pleia2 updates local copy
<knome> +ready
<knome> but krytarik is working on some last fixes for some of the issues
<knome> one question i have
<knome> as they are in the same branch/package as the regular docs, they are "release-specific" - even if they aren't
<pleia2> which branch?
<knome> lp:xubuntu-docs
<pleia2> i mean, not like wily/
<knome> ^ that's xenial
<knome> so the newest
<pleia2> k
<knome> the wily branch has outdated stuff already
<knome> one of the cons of having them in the same branch
<pleia2> yeah
<knome> otoh, this way we can share the build stuff
<knome> and stylesheets
<knome> and everything docbook
 * pleia2 nods
<knome> and only have to maintain one set of that
<knome> so, the question:
<knome> do we want to set up the online docs startpage so that we have a link, that we manually update, that points to the newest contributor docs?
<pleia2> different from the index of docs.x.o itself?
<knome> or - my preferred option - do we set up the Makefiles so that you can build the newest contributor docs directly in a subdirectory
<knome> no, that thing
<knome> my vision is that the contributor docs would be at http://docs.xubuntu.org/contributors/
<knome> but obviously feel free to disagree
<knome> maybe if we have more stuff coming for developers, we could consider another location too
<pleia2> so, speaking to my own process, whenever I build docs I do it locally (build tools are local, not on the webserver) and then upload what I need
<knome> ok
<pleia2> so as long as I have instructions about how to build and what to upload, I don't really mind where we put things
<knome> well, actually
<knome> one option is this:
<knome> set up another subdomain, like contributors.xubuntu.org (or whatever), host it on the same server as the tracker
<knome> then the maintaining burden can be shared
<pleia2> I think docs.x.o makes more sense
<knome> yeah
<knome> in that case, on the building quickly:
<knome> "make"
<pleia2> :)
<knome> then see build/contributor-docs
<pleia2> so, just what I do for the regular docs
<knome> that's currently skewed - we need the stuff from krytarik before we are ready to "just do it"
<knome> basically so
<knome> the main change we are making is that both of the docs have the same depth
<pleia2> right
<knome> so that ../../libs-common is always the same place
<knome> this helps us build the contributor docs in the shipped package too
<knome> but that's kind of minutiae
<knome> once krytarik has done the merge proposal, and the stuff is merged, we'd like an initial push ASAP
<knome> so we can start ripping the wiki stuff down
<knome> and make the website more user-oriented again (and just link to this documentation)
<pleia2> I'm home through Tuesday of next week (fly out for the holiday on Wednesday), back on Nov 30
<knome> we should have it up by then
<knome> that is, tuesday
<pleia2> ok, just lmk and I'll make time :)
<knome> related: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/DeveloperDocumentation
<knome> basically, i'm trying to make most of the wiki useless :P
<knome> not all, but most of it
<knome> i've even ACK'd moving the strategy document there by simon
<pleia2> reminds me, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Official#Xubuntu
<knome> then we can have history and sensible diff's
<pleia2> link should be updated
<knome> i'll do that
<pleia2> thanks
<knome> so, anything else on this subject?
<pleia2> DD wiki page lgtm
<pleia2> I think that's it
<knome> great, we'll poke you when we need an upload
<pleia2> perfect
<knome> so the other thing is basically "plan/set up blueprints for community/marketing/website"
<knome> and i guess we could talk about that sticker giveaway idea for twitter
<knome> and get it done
 * pleia2 nods
<knome> and with that, other potential social media campaigns
<knome> could be nice to do one giveaway for every biggish outlet
<pleia2> outlet, social media platform?
<knome> yeah
<knome> shorter
<knome> <- lazy
<pleia2> hehe
<pleia2> yeah, would be nice to do stuff for the lts
<knome> maybe G+, twitter, fb
<knome> so the question is:
<pleia2> right
<knome> what do we do with the xubuntu memories or whatever we ask
<pleia2> or #loveXubuntu
<knome> it could be with that
<pleia2> I'm inclined to collect our favorites in a series of blog posts
<knome> yes, something like that
<pleia2> I'd also like to collect a bunch of favorites, and then do a random drawing of which gets a prize
<knome> but we need an approval from the participants
<pleia2> to share?
<knome> well at least from those who "win"
 * pleia2 nods
<knome> yeah
<knome> i'd think it would be fair
<knome> also,
<knome> if we do this, just collect any ones that we might want to use
<pleia2> we can just request that they write "CC BY-SA" on whatever they submit
<knome> and ask for permission to use in "any marketing for xubuntu"
<knome> so we can use them later
<pleia2> otherwise it's not eligible
<knome> without the need to ask/collect again
<knome> i'm thinking flyers too
<pleia2> yeah, that's why a license is nice
<knome> yes, wfm
<knome> so, should this be a blog article after all?
<pleia2> which bit? :)
<knome> the "competition" info
<knome> tell what we do, ask for the CC bit, etc.
<pleia2> yeah, probably
<knome> we should probably also mention which platforms we are looking at
<knome> and if we take submissions via email
<knome> (and in which list/address)
<pleia2> my inclination is to ignore facebook because it's so closed
<pleia2> you can view tweets and g+ things without logging in, not so with facebook
<knome> yeah...
<knome> http://pad.ubuntu.com/lovexubuntu
<knome> let's try to get something there
<pleia2> ok
<pleia2> hee, look at all that content so far
<knome> well... i just created it
<knome> we have some old pad with some content
<pleia2> yeah, I thought we did
<knome> i'll try to find that next
<pleia2> I have it, sec
 * pleia2 lies
<knome> i have it
<knome> http://pad.ubuntu.com/Nl1LbS6DqL
<knome> i'm copying that over
<knome> sec
<pleia2> great name
<pleia2> :D
<knome> done
<pleia2> thanks
<knome> yes, isn't it
<pleia2> ok, I need to reprocess this, I'll work to add notes over the next few days
<pleia2> but lets add doing this to our blueprint
 * pleia2 pulls up
<knome> yeah, i'm quickly trying to add the things we just talked about so there's something to build on
<knome> yeah...
<knome> now, talking about BP's
<knome> is there something else we want to set up for 16.04?
<pleia2> flyer, lovexubuntu and continuing "xubuntu at" may be enough
<knome> kind of related, how do *you* feel about a wallpaper contest?
<pleia2> oh, we should do one
<knome> ok
<knome> i should write mail about it
<pleia2> we learned some things from last time
<knome> but laaazyyy
<pleia2> should recommend resolution, license
<knome> we remembered license
<knome> but people...
<pleia2> we collected on a wiki page last time, right?
<knome> yes
<pleia2> that was kind of awful
<pleia2> ubuntu uses flickr
<knome> and we kind of recommended resolution too, at least we had a minimum
<knome> but people..
<pleia2> heh, right
<knome> bluesabre said he'd look at creating a tool for us
<pleia2> even better :)
<knome> so, since you are our legal expert
<pleia2> that's a frightening statement
<pleia2> :)
<knome> if a form says with BIG  RED  letters
<pleia2> that's purple
<knome> whatever
<pleia2> hehe
<knome> that if you submit, you submit with a certain license
<knome> is that good enough?
<pleia2> I radio button would be better, even if it's default selected what we want
<knome> because surely bluesabre can make the tool autocheck the resolution
<knome> radio button with what alternatives?
<pleia2> or maybe just a checkbox saying they agree to our TOS
<knome> yeah
<pleia2> which is... agreeing to the license
<knome> hehe
<knome> and no titties
<knome> :|
<pleia2> agree to license, abide by CoC
<knome> yes
<knome> whatever terms we had the last time
<pleia2> we can work on the language for that
<pleia2> yeah
<knome> sounds good
<knome> do we want to work with this:
<knome>  [xubuntu-website] Community fund funded hosting for the development area: TODO
<pleia2> that just made my brain explode
<knome> sorry :(
<pleia2> what's the development area?
<knome> currently, the tracker
<knome> and i would like to set up a wiki too...
<pleia2> ah yes, I hate wiki
<pleia2> hehe
<pleia2> (hosting them)
<knome> heh
<Unit193> doku isn't so bad if you need smaller.
<knome> yeah, i was trying to remember the name
<pleia2> upgrade management, spam/user authentication handling, it sucks
<knome> i would most likely go with dokuwiki, it's relatively easy to maintain
<Unit193> Sean and I both use it.
<knome> and i've used it
<knome> we could probably look at having multiple admins for the server
<knome> virtual, likely
<pleia2> definitely
<knome> so it wouldn't be that bad
<knome> bluesabre already needs to handle dokuwiki updates
<knome> and Unit193 already pokes him about them
<knome> soooo...
<bluesabre> oh
<bluesabre> is there another update?
<bluesabre> :o
<knome> i don't know
<bluesabre> :D
<knome> we're talking about setting one for xubuntu
<bluesabre> gotcha
<bluesabre> dokuwiki is nice
<knome> i'm also familiar enough with the theming so i could probably set up a sensible xubuntu-specific theme relatively quickly
<bluesabre> No update notification, phew
<knome> but i don't want to push people to do things they don't want
<knome> so if it isn't realistic to have time/motivation for that, then we just postpone
<knome> or rethink stuff
<knome> the ubuntu wiki has been horrible lately :(
<Unit193> bluesabre: No you're good.
<knome> previously it has been just everybody else that has had problems with it
<knome> now i've been in problems too
<knome> brb
<pleia2> anyway, that action item sounds fine, I'm ok with being lead sysadmin on such a server as long as I have help with the service specific things
<knome> totally
<knome> and ideally, we'd move docs. and static. there too
<knome> so you would have less work in keeping them updated
<pleia2> ++
<pleia2> having me not the only one with access would be great
<knome> (and it would all be smoother, the doc team could poke whichever admin is available)
<knome> and with a virtual server, we can probably dump some scripts server side
 * knome hides from pleia2 and the rolling pin
<pleia2> well, we could install all the doc build tools, as long as they'll work on the lts
<knome> they should
<knome> and will, really
<knome> i can preliminary volunteer on taking care of some of the social side
<pleia2> https://www.linode.com/pricing is my recommendation
<pleia2> probably the 2G one if we're running a wiki
<knome> mhm
<pleia2> but 1G is probably ok too, I've not done doku
<knome> though note that it's low-use
<knome> doku is very light
<pleia2> what is it written in?
<knome> and really, we won't have more than a few dozen pages
<pleia2> yeah
<knome> guess?
<Unit193> pleia2: You mean you're not on the DO bandwagon?
<pleia2> Unit193: DO?
<Unit193> DigitalOcean.
<pleia2> knome: ah, php
<knome> pleia2, yeah :)
<pleia2> Unit193: heh, no
<knome> i'm ok with *any* hosting
<pleia2> Unit193: if they're more stable now, that's fine too
<knome> i *really* couldn't care less :]
<Unit193> pleia2: From what I hear they are better, but yeah.
<knome> well that is, as long as it works etc...
<knome> but no clicks for/against any provider
<pleia2> could also approach my buddy at gandi to see if they want to give us one
<knome> \o/
<pleia2> actually, let me email her right now
<knome> as long as that doesn't mean 1000x600 ads on every page ;))
<knome> woohoo
<Unit193> So you're going with Gentoo right?
<pleia2> knome: can you add the item to the blueprint?
<knome> which exactly?
<knome> the one i pasted is *on* the blueprint
<knome> it was carried on from W
<pleia2> nm, it's there
<pleia2> yeah :)
<knome> haha
<knome> yep
<knome> we can split it up when we have a clearer idea of smaller actionable items
<pleia2> opposed to a text footer on pages saying it's hosted by gandi?
<pleia2> (it's ok to say yes)
<knome> it's not ideal, and i would personally say no, but we should consult simon too
<knome> i mean, when i say "no", i mean "yes" to opposing
 * knome sighs
<knome> but "no" for the ads...
<knome> also, that would likely mean we'd need to change stuff
<pleia2> right
<knome> think: add the footer note in the docs source
<knome> which is a bit icky
<knome> pleia2, oh, another thing to talk about: saw the -contacts mail?
<pleia2> gabor?
<knome> yes
<pleia2> yeah, I think it's a fine idea
<knome> ok, then i'll approve the message and reply him telling that
<pleia2> hanks
<pleia2> thanks too
<knome> t. hanks
<knome> (^tom)
<pleia2> har
<pleia2> ok, request has been emailed
<knome> ok, replied to gabor (and CC list)
<pleia2> ty
<knome> so... anything else for the blueprints?
<knome> any improvements you would like to see re: the release pages on the website?
<pleia2> I'm good
<knome> hmm, am i not autoapproved
<knome> sigh
<pleia2> hee
<knome> i am
<knome> the list just sends the email anyway
<knome> i guess i'm done then with stuff for now :)
<knome> thanks
<pleia2> thanks ;)
<knome> updated the artwork wikipage
<pleia2> cool
<knome> oh heh, i've broken the resources page
<pleia2> gg
<knome> will go fix that next
<knome> aaand done
<knome> alexkuck, hello
<alexkuck> knome: hello. how are you ?
<knome> i'm fine
<knome> looking for something? :)
<alexkuck> nope ! i am just a silent lurker..
<knome> aha ;)
<alexkuck> (a proud user of xubuntu for a couple years)
<knome> we can alwaus use a pair of helping hands if you ever decide that you want to help :)
<knome> ^ as you can see, we totally need help with typing :P
<pleia2> hehe
<alexkuck> knome: i've never been involved with operating system dev. what would be some initial opportunities ?
<knome> alexkuck, testing the development release, for example
<knome> and/or new software versions
<alexkuck> is there a formal test process ? or just report what breaks during normal usage?
<knome> it's described in http://xubuntu.org/contribute/qa
<knome> but we're also planning a session for people interested in testing in this channel
<knome> let me dig up the link..
<knome> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/xubuntu-devel/2015-November/010966.html <- there
<knome> OR you could just ask flocculant for details :)
<knome> but long story short - both
<knome> we specifically need to do certain tests with new ISOs to make sure xubuntu is installable
<alexkuck> fantastic !
<knome> and tbe, many more people on this channel can answer questions
#xubuntu-devel 2015-11-21
<pleia2> knome: want to respond to this? https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/xubuntu-devel/2015-November/010947.html
<pleia2> nice that they are offering, but they should go through the official mirrors process thing
<knome> rrright
<knome> i was going to do that but forgot
<knome> i'll do it
<pleia2> ty
<knome> ok, done
<flocculant> ochosi_ bluesabre : bug 1518533
<ubottu> bug 1518533 in shimmer-themes (Ubuntu) "GTK update caused visual issues" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1518533
<flocculant> reported against shimmer for the moment, tagged it gtk318 for Laney - assuming this is nothing to do with us
<flocculant> would have reported against something else if I'd known what :)
<bluesabre> flocculant: ah, the wonderful world of gtk version updates
<bluesabre> flocculant: shimmer is probably fine here, for every other new gtk3 version, we have to make a lot of changes
<flocculant> bluesabre: :)
<flocculant> at least I was pretty sure what the cause was this time :D
<knome> bluesabre, did you see the discussion about the wallpaper contest webapp here?
<knome> bluesabre, and where are we at with it?
<bluesabre> knome: haven't read the backlog yet
<bluesabre> knome: was going to crank it out this weekend
<knome> ok
<knome> also, what kind of help do you think we need with running the contest if we have your app?
<knome> would the app be able to let us log in with something and then make the selections there?
<knome> something like tagging would work well enough
<knome> or alternatively, votes per image
<knome> votes from logged in users, that is
<knome> which would be at maximum the xubuntu team
<bluesabre> knome: I figure we can have a list of users with elevanted priveleges who can vote, any lp can log in to submit, etc
<knome> mhm
<knome> if you do the LP login thing, consider doing it as a lib that other apps *cough* tracker *cough* can use as well
<bluesabre> :D
<bluesabre> I'll try to make it nice and reusable
<knome> great
<flocculant> afternoon knome 
<knome> the login is basically openid, so something generic with that might work
<knome> but i don't know how you're going to get the team membership information then
<knome> (there are the wordpress plugins if you want to look from there how canonical does it)
<knome> hey flocculant 
<bluesabre> knome: cool, I might poke you when I am playing with that bit ;)
<knome> haha
<knome> feel free to
<flocculant> hi krytarik 
<krytarik> Yo. :)
<flocculant> bluesabre: "You may have noticed that GTK+ master has a large number of changes in the CSS area. As some like to put it: Oh NO! theyâre breaking themes again!" https://blogs.gnome.org/mclasen/2015/11/20/a-gtk-update/
<bluesabre> flocculant: yeeeeeep
<flocculant> :)
<bluesabre> maybe we should use adwaita, its the only theme that can be persistently maintained (as part of gtk)
<flocculant> not getting into that hornets nest of a discussion :p-
<bluesabre> good idea
<bluesabre> ;)
<Unit193> rm'ing the xfce4-pulseaudio-plugin git repos, we just pull from Debian now.
<krytarik> knome: Just worked on the Common Reference page a bit more today, and added a Git section there - should be ready to MP tomorrow.
<knome> sounds good
#xubuntu-devel 2015-11-22
<knome> !team |Â reminder: feature definition freeze is next thursday, let's try to get the blueprints ready before that
<ubottu> Â reminder: feature definition freeze is next thursday, let's try to get the blueprints ready before that: bluesabre, dkessel, flocculant, jjfrv8, knome, krytarik, lderan, micahg, Noskcaj, ochosi, pleia2, slickymaster, Unit193
<krytarik> slickymaster, knome: Done - https://code.launchpad.net/~krytarik/xubuntu-docs/contributor/+merge/278262
<krytarik> knome: And please set my work item to 'DONE' too, when you merged it.
<knome> krytarik, hmm, do we really want the itemizedlists inside paras?
<knome> we're not doing that anywhere
<krytarik> Yes!
<knome> why?
<krytarik> Wait.
<knome>  yes.
<knome> only one place too
<krytarik> Where do you see that? I know I fixed some on the QA Team page.
<krytarik> I was more thinking the other way around, where I added more than one once. :P
<knome> line 893 of the diff
<krytarik> Ah yes, that's because it doesn't like that in an 'abstract'.
<knome> aha...
<krytarik> Didn't validate.
<knome> hrm.
<knome> i wonder how the html output looks
<krytarik> The same really.
<krytarik> Just like the 'note' one.
<knome> eghh
<knome> we really should try to see other options than abstract for the introduction
<knome> it isn't even semantic
<krytarik> And it doesn't like sections without any elements other than the title either. :P
<knome> yeah
<krytarik> So I had "<para></para>" at one place. :P
<knome> yep
<knome> what's the idea with the new index.html for startpage?
<krytarik> 'sed' basically, rather than put together.
<knome> ok
<knome> i know it's valid, but i don't particularly like this syntax: + padding: 3em 3em 1em;
<knome> also, we should just use the same stylesheet for the startpage
<knome> but that can wait
<krytarik> Yeah, we should.
<krytarik> Ah, you mean rather specify them all - yeah, I can agree there.
<knome> yep
<krytarik> Particularly when you're already up to 3 anyway. :P
<knome> yep
<knome> 2 is ok
<krytarik> Yeah.
<knome> 3 is the one that is meh :P
<krytarik> So go fix that. :P
<knome> hahahahaha!
<knome> :X
<krytarik> lol
<krytarik> I usually just put there as much as is necessary, that is.
<knome> heh
<knome> so, on relativity...
<knome> we will need one link for startpage :P
<knome> well actually not
<knome> if we don't care how the startpage looks before building
<krytarik> Huh? :D
<knome> nvm
<flocculant> hi knome krytarik 
<krytarik> Hi flocculant.
<knome> hello flocculant 
<knome> krytarik, and i'm wondering about the makefile targets too
<knome> and my brain hurts
<krytarik> Yeah, Makefile stuff does that to one... :D
<knome> epub sigh
<krytarik> Yeah, at least they kind of "work" now again. :P
<knome> what is "-cp ..." ?
<krytarik> They look horrible though, that is. :D
<krytarik> Ignore errors.
<knome> ok
<knome> ok, i think i fixed it
<SwissBot> feed xubuntu-docs had 13 updates, showing the latest 3
<Unit193> Well -cp means you don't echo it.
<krytarik> Unit193: Nope, that's '@'.
<krytarik> knome: This is what I have right now on top of your current branch, however - barring the needed style fixes for the startpage mentioned in -offtopic: http://paste.openstack.org/show/CC7IP1SJM4guDL4v1yzp/
<krytarik> I trust it's easy for you to fix those. :)
<Unit193> Oooooh, right!
<krytarik> knome: If you'd just refer to my review in the commit log, that'd be nice - so I don't have to comment. :D
<krytarik> (Which would just be a link to the diff paste anyway.)
<knome> krytarik, i changed the filename because i wanted to highlight that it's the startpage specific stuff
<krytarik> knome: Yeah, it's easier to distinguish in the index file anyway.
<krytarik> knome: Oh crap, it should be "html-style: ../common-libs" in 'user-docs/Makefile' - I seem to have not saved that before doing the diff. >_<
<krytarik> + too
<knome> ahahahaha
<krytarik> lol
<krytarik> It's the little things, you know! :P
<krytarik> You don't need a new diff though, right? :D
<pleia2> knome: no pictures yet (see ticket) but a draft of the next xubuntu at post is up if you want to proof https://xubuntu.org/?p=3597&preview=true
<knome> pleia2, i'll look at it later today
<pleia2> knome: thanks :)
<knome> pleia2, "Also, we understand the positive aspects of giving the user access to modify as it can lead to a better function and understanding of the software."
<knome> pleia2, modify what?
<knome> pleia2, "First of all we believed that this platform better suited the needs of our organization."
<knome> pleia2, better than what? or "best" ?
<knome> pleia2, "Is there anything else you wish to share with us about FreeGeek Chicago or how you use Xubuntu?"
<knome> pleia2, maybe we should drop the "or how you use Xubuntu?" since they don't mention it again
<knome> pleia2, apart from that, i did some very minor edits (remove a comma, "open-source" -> "open source", "FireFox" -> "Firefox")
#xubuntu-devel 2016-11-21
<bluesabre> morning all
<knome> hello bluesabre 
<bluesabre> hey knome
<bluesabre> how's it going?
<knome> a bit sick, but otherwise ok
<bluesabre> :(
<knome> well, that's life :)
<knome> i didn't even notice your reply even if it was almost immediate, so sorry :P
<flocculant> hi bluesabre - did you ever get a look at the gtk3 panel oddities? 
<ochosi> evening everyone
<knome> 'lo
<Unit193> Howdy.
<slickymaster> hi ochosi 
<krytarik> Hi.
<ochosi> wow, everybody in hiding :)
<knome> how so?
<ochosi> how's everything?
<knome> we all stepped up promptly!
<slickymaster> yeaps
<slickymaster> the boss showed up
<knome> one of the bosses..
<slickymaster> right
<slickymaster> sorry, other boss
<knome> :P
<flocculant> so that works as a notificatioon hi ochosi :)
<flocculant> slickymaster: still wrong - you're missing the other other one
<flocculant> mmm
<flocculant> ochosi: so that was just meant to be hi ochosi ... stupid irssi
<slickymaster> he isn't around at the moment flocculant 
<flocculant> lol
<ochosi> :)
<flocculant> ochosi: did you see my adventures with breaking the gtk3 panel stuff? 
<ochosi> flocculant: you still remember the weird bug we had in ubiquity's progress dots in 16.10?
<ochosi> nope
<ochosi> but that sounds like fun :)
<flocculant> ochosi: yea I remember that
<ochosi> so i fixed that issue upstream in gtk+ in the progressbar code
<flocculant> oh cool
<ochosi> my patch got merged to master very recently
<flocculant> nice
<ochosi> i'm working on getting it backported to 3.20 and 3.22
<ochosi> cause currently it's targeted for gtk4 :D
<flocculant> lol
<flocculant> ochosi: http://pad.ubuntu.com/xubuntu-gtk3
<flocculant> it was all working fine when I was in yak - now in zesty it's all meh for that specific thing I use 
<ochosi> ok interesting, i'll check it out
<ochosi> wait, you're testing the panel in yak or zesty?
<Unit193> He's on zesty.
<flocculant> consequently I'm currently not using the gtk3 ppa
<ochosi> humm, tbh that works for me (adding launchers to the panel and everything)
<ochosi> in yak though
<flocculant> ochosi: yea - Unit193 is right, might be taking a backseat on qa stuff - but still testing newest here :)
<ochosi> yeah, nice stuff :)
<flocculant> yea - worked for me back then too 
<ochosi> crap :/
<ochosi> so we really need to target 3.22 then
<ochosi> i don't wanna go fix stuff for every other gtk+3 release
<flocculant> ha ha 
<flocculant> I can understand the sentiment even if I don't understand the work :p
<flocculant> ochosi: not sure about vbox or anything, but reproducible with kvm thing
<ochosi> k
<ochosi> i'll take a look
<ochosi> but that might also explain why others are seeing issues with my panel work that i don't
<ochosi> i guess some of them may be on 3.22
<flocculant> ochosi: it is very specifically launcher issue for me 
<flocculant> other stuff I have there all works ok
<ochosi> k
<ochosi> that sounds a little more comforting at least
<flocculant> :)
<flocculant> just checked vm and updated etc - for Justin Case - still the same 
<flocculant> off now - night all
<ochosi> night flocculant 
<Unit193> bluesabre: Hmm.  MOTU time yet?
#xubuntu-devel 2016-11-22
<bluesabre> evening all
<bluesabre> Unit193, probably a good idea for me to apply this cycle and see where I stand
<Unit193> bluesabre: I was supposed to sync exo now, aye?
<Unit193> !info exo-utils experimental
<ubottu> 'experimental' is not a valid distribution: kubuntu-backports, kubuntu-experimental, kubuntu-updates, partner, precise, precise-backports, precise-proposed, stable, testing, trusty, trusty-backports, trusty-proposed, unstable, utopic, utopic-backports, utopic-proposed, vivid, vivid-backports, vivid-proposed, wily, wily-backports, wily-proposed, xenial, xenial-backports, xenial-proposed, yakkety, yakkety-backports, yakkety-proposed, zesty, zesty-bac
<bluesabre> Unit193, yes sir
<Unit193> OK, cool.  Horrible memory...
<bluesabre> Unit193, np, same here
<Unit193> bluesabre: It is sync'd, so can get the GTK3 whisker too now.
<bluesabre> awesome
<Unit193> xfce4-wavelan-plugin 0.6.0-1 hit Debian.
<flocculant> ochosi: just a note - added all available plugins from the gtk3 ppa to my vm - the only issue I've found playing about has been the one I mentioned previously
<flocculant> thought you might like to know that
* Unit193 changed the topic of #xubuntu-devel to: Xubuntu Development | Support at #xubuntu | http://dev.xubuntu.org/ | Release Schedule: http://ubottu.com/y/zz | Daily testing with results: http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/
<ochosi> flocculant: so the gtk3 panel "just works" apart from your launcher problem..?
#xubuntu-devel 2016-11-23
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ATTN: Xubuntu Core 17.04 - i386 - i386 built.
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ATTN: Xubuntu Core 17.04 - amd64 - amd64 built.
<Unit193> ochosi: I know what the problem there is.
<Unit193> flocculant: Wooo!  May have even fixed it!  After apt update, check  apt list | grep ed,loc  and check what's there.  I deleted xfconf from the PPA quite some time ago, but looks like it never got deleted from LP (just hidden from view), so I hit the delete button a few more times right now and it's no longer in the archive either.
<Unit193> ochosi: â
<ochosi> Unit193: oh, it was the "new"/unreleased gtk3 port of xfconf?
<Unit193> Yeah, the crappy one that breaks everything.  Hence why stuff was broken. :D
<ochosi> humpf
<ochosi> thanks for noticing :)
<ochosi> that would have been nasty to debug
<Unit193> I fixed/re-installed/etc my VM.
<Unit193> ochosi: Howdy.
<ochosi> and howdy, what's up? :)
<Unit193> Not much at 0240.
<flocculant> Unit193: I'll reinstall my vm - and recheck that gtk3 stuff then - purging ppa and re-adding I still see problem
<flocculant> I notice the ppa is emptier than it was though :)
<Unit193> flocculant: As of a few minutes ago?  And yeah, pushing them to zesty.  Did you get anything back from that command?
<flocculant> ppa purge worked ok - ppa add appeared to have issues 
<flocculant> I'll be awake this afternoon :p
<bluesabre> Unit193, I would have never figured that out
<ochosi> hey bluesabre 
<flocculant> ochosi bluesabre Unit193 - now running gtk3 ppa in zesty here again - at least the few bits left in the ppa
<Unit193> flocculant: Did you do whatever it was that you were going to do later, btw?
<flocculant> Unit193: perhaps ...
<flocculant> if it was gtk3 - then yea - have that now on this machine 
<flocculant> knome: so I'm back with that really annoying login to admin on x.o and only get my profile thing again :(
<flocculant> and now ...
<flocculant> took ~10 tries
<knome> hmm.
<knome> oh well, IS issues:P
<flocculant> yea :p
<flocculant> knome: ok site updated 
<knome> thanks again
<ochosi> Unit193: any plans for setting up a meeting?
<Unit193> Oh I'm next?
<ochosi> it seems
<knome> Unit193, do you not read meeting logs?
<Unit193> knome: Read: yes, remember: no.
<Unit193> ochosi: Need something specific?
<ochosi> nope, just a friendly reminder
<Unit193> OK, cool.  Thanks then.
<flocculant> knome: mailed list with changes too
<flocculant> evening ochosi :)
<knome> cheerio
<flocculant> knome: cya 
<flocculant> though I'm not sure you meant that :p
<knome> nope :P
<flocculant> :D
<bluesabre> hey ochosi 
<bluesabre> and hi everyone
<flocculant> hi bluesabre 
<ochosi> evening bluesabre 
<Unit193> bluesabre: Howdy.
<bluesabre> hey!
<Unit193> ochosi: Unless specifically called for, upcoming weeks are going to be a bit more complicated.
<ochosi> well we can do an impromptu meeting now ;)
<ochosi> knome, bluesabre: we should also do our initial council meeting...
<knome> yep
<bluesabre> ochosi, indeed
<ochosi> bluesabre: plus, if/when you have time, maybe discuss some roadmappy things (which would mostly belong to #xfce-dev prolly)
<bluesabre> ochosi, anytime
<bluesabre> (including now)
<knome> yeah, works for me
<ochosi> k, why not
<flocculant> Unit193: you're off that hook then - swim away quickly :p
<Unit193> flocculant: Swimming then.
<knome> #startmeeting Xubuntu council meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Nov 23 22:33:39 2016 UTC.  The chair is knome. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<knome> #chair ochosi bluesabre 
<meetingology> Current chairs: bluesabre knome ochosi
<bluesabre> woohoo
<knome> anything specific we want in the agenda?
<bluesabre> nothing specific from me
<slickymaster> whatie!?!?!?!
<knome> slickymaster?
<slickymaster> meeting today?
<knome> slickymaster, council, impromptu
<slickymaster> oh
<slickymaster> sorry 
<knome> but feel free to follow and comment if there's something
<bluesabre> (surprise!)
<knome> ochosi, anything for the agenda?
<ochosi> the only specific thing i would like to finalize (although we have discussed it previously via email) is our communication channels
<knome> mhm
<ochosi> we can also discuss and finalize other generic stuff like voting
<ochosi> but my presumption is that it'll be the same as with general votes
<knome> my other item is the blog article for council that has been under work 
<knome> ok, so
<knome> #topic Council communication
<ochosi> good
<knome> this has indeed been discussed before in council-exclusive emails, and the gist is:
<knome> (correct me if i'm wrong)
<knome> eugh, sorry for the delay
<bluesabre> :)
<knome> so the basic gist:
<knome> - the council decides whether any discussion needs to be private, but mostly it will be public
<knome> - if a decision is made in private, the reasons behind the decision will still be made public
<knome> - the council will NOT have a separate mailing list (even a private one) for now
<flocculant> mmm
<knome> anything that needs clarification?
<flocculant> point
<knome> sure
<ochosi> i'd explicitely say that we'll use the xubuntu devel ml for now
<ochosi> not just "NO separate ml"
<bluesabre> yeah, I'd agree with that
<knome> ochosi, well yeah, that's implied; we'll use the regular communication methods unless we want to discuss something in private
<knome> but ok
<flocculant> while I can understand not wanting to do the whole private m/l - that means that discussion that might be private are not ever available to council members in future
<flocculant> which could be an issue perhaps
<knome> flocculant, we did discuss that
<knome> it's actually very likely that kind of discussion would happen in IRC
<knome> so there would have to be some kind of logging for that
<flocculant> mmm
<ochosi> also, "the reasons behind the decision will still be made public"
<flocculant> well - I'm just making the point is all :) 
<ochosi> this implies to me that not just the decision but also the gist of the discussion shall be made public
<knome> flocculant, sure, wanted to let you know that we did indeed think about it
<flocculant> ochosi: not sure that makes a lot of difference
<knome> ochosi, indeed
<flocculant> anyway - point made :)
<ochosi> point taken
<knome> ochosi, wasn't that what we agreed on?
<ochosi> knome: yup, just wanted to say it expressis verbis
<bluesabre> Do we want to utilize a tag when communicated over the mailing list, e.g. [COUNCIL] to make it easier to sort out historical discussion?
<knome> again, obviously if it's anything that requires keeping stuff private for intimacy reasons, then it's not going to be released
<knome> bluesabre, that sounds like we should just create that mailing list :P
<knome> and flocculant's point on the -offtopic channel speaks for that too
<bluesabre> knome, yeah, but we also use [TEAM] for team discussion on the devel list
<knome> in any case, i don't think that list will be very high traffic
<bluesabre> (or have in the past)
<knome> bluesabre, i don't think we'd take "council discussion" to the mailing list
<knome> i mean...
<knome> again, it feels like it's more suited for IRC and real-time
<bluesabre> so it would be more, announcements from the council
<knome> yes
<bluesabre> that's reasonable
<knome> and those announcements do not concern the council only, they are whole project, so i'm not sure what the council tag would be for 
<knome> "this is what the council will force on you all"
<knome> :P
<bluesabre> "Ugh, another COUNCIL email"
<knome> (no, please not like that, i want the council to be as transparent and at the same level as the team9
<bluesabre> right
<ochosi> yeah
<bluesabre> so most (if not all) council communication occurs on #xubuntu-devel, announcements are made to the -devel m/l
<ochosi> to me the council is also a safety net against the "single point of failure" XPL
<knome> so,
<knome> should it all be expressed this way:
<ochosi> so not that much active "council stuff" is going to go down in my expectation at least
<bluesabre> That's how I also understand it
<knome> - council will do any discussion-like communication on IRC, announcements and requests for feedback on -devel
<knome> that is, for THIS council setup
<knome> this isn't something we'll write on the strategy document
<knome> (but maybe we should consider adding something general there about the public/private discussion part)
<ochosi> you mean to not prevent future councils to take a more proactive approach..?
 * knome shrugs
<bluesabre> largely to just have an official statement on these things should questions or eyebrows be raised
<knome> why do we have a strategy document if the strategy is whatever the majority of currently active people agree on?
<knome> of course future councils or whatever can just change the section on the SD
<bluesabre> certainly
<knome> ok, so
<knome> 1) most discussion is public, private only if the council feels it's required for the issue at hand
<knome> 2) if discussion is private, any decisions and the rationale for the decision will be made public, unless making the rational public would infringe personal privacy or something alike
<knome> 3) council discussion will mostly be had in IRC; the xubuntu-devel mailing list is used for any council announcements and requests for feedback
<knome> 4) council announcements will also be announced on the community meetings
<ochosi> sounds good to me
<knome> 5) the council will have scheduled and/or impromptu meetings on #xubuntu-devel; the meeting minutes (and logs) will be sent to the xubuntu-devel mailing list
<knome> phew
<knome> did somebody want to mull over the public/private discussion issue and the decision making leading to a private one?
<knome> eg. do we need to express more clearly that the council will not take discussions private unless the council really thinks privacy requires it or it is a really sensitive issue otherwise?
<knome> apparently not
<knome> #action knome to send a summary of the council communication discussion to the ML
<meetingology> ACTION: knome to send a summary of the council communication discussion to the ML
<bluesabre> anything that even suggests a lack of transparency or openness is generally going to be frowned upon
<Unit193> knome: Only thing I can think of is sending the private logs to the team server so that they're more archived for later council members.
<knome> Unit193, right, the only "issue" with that is that people not in the council have access to that
<knome> again, not a statement of trust issues, but it's not foolproof
<Unit193> Indeed, thought of that.
<knome> also, does ochosi have access to the server?
<knome> or bluesabre?
<ochosi> nope
<bluesabre> nope
<ochosi> not that i know of
<knome> so again if we want to do something like this, i'd just vote for creating that mailing list
<bluesabre> certainly not the council server :D
<knome> and sending the meeting logs to the council ML
<knome> the ownership of a ML is easy to transfer when the council seats change
<slickymaster> I think that the ability of those logs being available to future councilmembers is important, imo
<knome> you think, in your opinion
<knome> i'd never thought of that
<knome> *trollface*
<Unit193> knome: Was just an idea as a way to archive them, though yeah it's a bit moot if you do setup the ML after all.
<knome> i mean instead of doing the weird server setup, just do it on the ML - don't even need to use that for anything else
<knome> there is no guarantee that the xubuntu devel server will always exist
<bluesabre> yeah
<knome> so at this point i see no reason to set up anything like this
<knome> -- however, if a private discussion is needed, the council should reasses the situation
<knome> +s
<knome> ok, i think that's clear now :P
<knome> anything else on this subject?
<ochosi> nope
<ochosi> i think this is fine
<knome> #topic Blog article about the council
<knome> without further ado, we have one under draft at http://pad.ubuntu.com/xubuntu-council-article
<knome> we probably want "something personal" there too about the council members
<bluesabre> I can agree with that
<bluesabre> I'm also for having this in general for our team for anybody that wants to put their name on the site or wiki
<knome> there have been talks about an "introducing the xubuntu team" article series for ever...
<knome> so anyway, we can likely continue working on that article outside of the official meeting
<knome> does anybody have any ideas what we should/could have there?
<ochosi> to me the structure and content looks fine
<ochosi> we can finalize this outside the meeting
<knome> oki
<knome> anything else?
<ochosi> nope, fine by me
<bluesabre> I think we're good with that
<knome> so anything else on anything else?
<knome> does the general public have any questions for the council?
<knome> :P
<bluesabre> I don't think so... I can imagine that our activity (as a single acting body) will be incredibly rare
<bluesabre> Any questions can be directed to the mailing list and added to the Meetings discussion to be picked up as we go
<knome> yes
<knome> thanks
<knome> #endmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Nov 23 23:22:24 2016 UTC.  
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2016/xubuntu-devel.2016-11-23-22.33.moin.txt
<bluesabre> woo
<ochosi> cool, thanks bluesabre and knome 
<bluesabre> thanks knome
<bluesabre> thanks ochosi
<bluesabre> thanks lurkers
<knome> thanks sean, simon
<Unit193> Thanks XPC.
<knome> and the bots
<bluesabre> peanut gallery, you guys are important too
<Unit193> \o/
 * genii sweeps up all the crumpled balls of paper, and cleans the coffee machine
#xubuntu-devel 2016-11-25
<flocculant> ochosi: ok - so definitely same on daily
<flocculant> bug 1644917
<ubottu> bug 1644917 in xfce4-indicator-plugin (Ubuntu) "Label missing from indicator-plugin clear option" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1644917
<flocculant> I'll try and find something missing on an ubuntu iso 
<ochosi> flocculant: alright, this is already the case in yak for me
<ochosi> can reproduce this locally
<flocculant> ochosi: ok - cool
<ochosi> i'll check it out, the bug is pretty much for sure in libxfce4ui
<flocculant> ochosi: I did add libxfce4ui to the bug report
<flocculant> and now removed ind-plugin
<ochosi> wait a sec though
<ochosi> i'll try with a patched indicator plugin first
<ochosi> humm no, must be in libxfce4ui
<ochosi> i'll do some digging
<flocculant> ochosi: I'd removed the plugin already btw
<ochosi> ok, i think i've fixed it
<ochosi> it was in the plugin after all :p
<ochosi> http://i.imgur.com/rpeaIih.png
<flocculant> coolio 
<flocculant> not something I'd normally have noticed - never actually used that option before 
<ochosi> still have to check why this happens really, i.e. what changed in libxfce4ui (but i think it's mostly that the dialogs were ported to gtk3)
<flocculant> ack 
<flocculant> at least it was found and fixed :)
<ochosi> yeah, but that's not something i wanna write in a commit msg ;)
<ochosi> flocculant: ok, prepared the patch and reported the bug upstream https://bugzilla.xfce.org/show_bug.cgi?id=13051
<ubottu> bugzilla.xfce.org bug 13051 in General "Clear known indicators dialog is missing "clear" label" [Normal,New]
<flocculant> ochosi: lol
<flocculant> thanks for finding fix - I'll see it eventually :)
<flocculant> and now it's night all :)
<ochosi> night
#xubuntu-devel 2016-11-26
<Unit193> bluesabre: Oh, do we/does anyone care about hamster?
<knome> maybe somebody from the docs team could answer that persian guy about translations
<flocculant> talking of translations - never seen this before, Quicklauncher properties on my system http://i.imgur.com/sSg65O6.png
<knome> heh
<knome> maybe french is in the source...
<flocculant> knome: what's the difference between msgid and msgstr in a .po ?
<flocculant> en.po is half english and half french :)
<knome> id is the source, str is the translated
<knome> eg. "Translate msgid to msgstr"
<flocculant> ok - so half of the source is English, the other half is French :p
<knome> yep, then it's no "surprise" that this happens for you
<flocculant> :)
<flocculant> no surprise if I'd seen the .po first :D
<knome> yep
<flocculant> and the fr.po is half english too :D
<knome> should be
<knome> as the software needs to know which source string to translate to the msgstr string
<flocculant> knome: then I'm confused by 'id is source, str is translated' looking at the the 2 .po's side by side :)
<knome> msgid should be all english in all files
<flocculant> ok - so then it's wrong
<knome> indeed
 * flocculant then wonders if he can find the interest in dealing with this :p
<flocculant> s/then/now
<knome> who's the maintainer?
<flocculant> where would I find that?
<flocculant> blimey - last changelog date is about when I first installed Feisty :D
<knome> https://github.com/xfce-mirror/xfce4-quicklauncher-plugin/blob/master/AUTHORS
<flocculant> oh right - yea got that from source I grabbed
<knome> if it's really that old, and the author is not around any more, i'm pretty sure simon and others could help get that fixed
<flocculant> looks to me like most of the .po's have non-english msgid
<flocculant> if it is the case that msgid should be english in all cases, perhaps I'll see how to fix it 
<knome> indeed it should
<knome> well
<knome> if the source strings in the source CODE are french, then the msgid's should be in french in order for the translations to work
<knome> but that would still be wrong - as the source language should be english everywhere
<knome> https://github.com/xfce-mirror/xfce4-quicklauncher-plugin/blob/master/panel-plugin/callbacks.c#L124
<knome> here it looks like it's fixed
<flocculant> not sure what that's showing me :)
<knome> that line means the source translation should have  msgid "Space between launchers:"
<knome> not  msgid "Escape entre les lanceurs :"  as your .po likely says
<flocculant> oic sorry
<knome> no worries
<flocculant> never spent so long talking about something french since 1979 ... 
<knome> ;)=
<flocculant> I guess first thing I should do is report it at bugzilla 
<knome> probably
<flocculant> assuming that msgid should be en, then I can list all the non en lines there
<knome> again considering the newest source code doesn't seem to have anything in french :/
<knome> i mean anything that shouldn'y..
<knome> t too
<flocculant> yea 
<flocculant> so actually no bug as such - just what I have is 'old' 
<knome> likely
<knome> or something else is wrong
<flocculant> knome: well thanks for all of that - learnt 2 things this evening :)
<knome> np
<flocculant> night :)
<knome> nighty
#xubuntu-devel 2016-11-27
<codfection> hi
<codfection> how can I contribute into xubuntu development?
<knome> hello
<knome> there are many ways; in what area would you like to contribute in?
<knome> development as in bug fixing and writing code or something else?
#xubuntu-devel 2017-11-20
<bluesabre> lightdm development moved to github https://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/lightdm/2017-November/001094.html
<flocculant> ochosi: ppa picked it up - that looks better :)
<flocculant> thanks :)
<ochosi> flocculant: nice, so another issue we can close :)
<ochosi> (i need to draw a nicer icon still...)
<slickymasterWork> the replacement of evince, file-roller and gnome calc for atril, engrampa and mate-calc has a minimum impact in our documentation
<slickymasterWork> from the three, just evince is referenced, in one line on chapter five
<knome> slickymasterWork, yep
<flocculant> ochosi: :)
<Unit193> ochosi: ...notifyd does weird things with notifications, namly putting some type of hex for chars.
<bluesabre> Unit193: that sounds amusing
<Unit193> bluesabre: Well, makes the spam from #freenode even longer. :P
<bluesabre> :D
<Unit193> bluesabre: I don't suppose you'd know about plans for ubiquity or the installer Ubuntu plans to use?
<bluesabre> Unit193: I know absolutely nothing about that
<Unit193> bluesabre: Also, regarding at-spi-core, it should be recommends usually, since it's GNOME's Accessibility interface.
<Unit193> Eg, something to have by default, sure.  But nice to allow uninstallation.
<Unit193> Also yey conflicts in xubuntu.bionic! :D
<bluesabre> Unit193: aha, recommends where?
<bluesabre> and I guess I should undo my sorting
<bluesabre> Guessing all this means I have mail somewhere.....
<Unit193> bluesabre: atril hard depends on it.
<Unit193> bluesabre: Nonono!  I mean locally!  For me.
<bluesabre> Unit193: ah, missed that
<Unit193> I had done sorting and removed something, remember?
<bluesabre> maybe
<Unit193> and bzr crapped all over the repo, with files like core.THIS, what the bloody heck were those people thinking?
<bluesabre> :D
<Unit193> I'm going with "whatever I had couldn't have been *that* important.", unless krytarik can dig up my paste. :P
<krytarik> I also know of nothing!
<bluesabre> I've definitely lost it.
<bluesabre> Unit193: need anything from me?
<Unit193> bluesabre: Pardon?
<Unit193> http://paste.openstack.org/show/pxXqdG5WFXfwNbCQRrCA/ was it! \o/
<Unit193> > app-install-data-partner  that's not needed anymore.
<bluesabre> that's it
<bluesabre> :D
<bluesabre> Thought I removed that
<bluesabre> Guess I missed it :)
<bluesabre> Will knock that out tonight/tomorrow unless you beat me to it
<Unit193> If I start looking at the seeds, I'll likely want to tidy more. :3
<Unit193> BTW: Description-en: Ubuntu modifications for Firefox
<Unit193>  This package currently ships no functionality, but may be used again in
<Unit193>  the future to display a restart notification after upgrading Firefox.
<bluesabre> Unit193: by all means! :D
<bluesabre> and dang, what a silly extension
<Unit193> xfce4-indicator-plugin shouldn't be in core..Oh.
<Unit193> The panel gives a popup when a default panel item isn't installed, right?
#xubuntu-devel 2017-11-21
<bluesabre> Unit193: I don't think so
<Unit193> Then might actually be able to move xfce4-indicator-plugin to desktop.
<ali1234> maybe someone here knows... how can i restart the gvfs daemon in xubuntu session with debugging options?
<ochosi> Unit193: could you put that into a bugreport incl a description as to how to reproduce? thanks! (having said that it's probably a pango issue, notifyd does nothing special wrt character encoding)
<Unit193> ochosi: So far I think I only have "Sit in #freenode long enough to get spam" :P
<ochosi> Unit193: with what client..?
<Unit193> notify-osd
<Unit193> Eg, `notify-send`
<flocculant> bluesabre: ygm
<ochosi> notify-osd is not xfce4-notifyd. and notify-send is ok, but how can i reproduce that? what message would i have to send via notify-send?
<ali1234> notify stack appears to be unicode safe
<ali1234> its probably the irc client?
<ochosi> that's why i asked about the irc client...
<ochosi> Unit193: in case you missed it, that was for you ^ :)
<Unit193> ochosi: Irssi, as always.
<ochosi> and do you have a string with which i could try to reproduce?
<ochosi> i presume the locale is en_US?
<Unit193> Well that's fun: (xfce4-notifyd-config:9552): Gtk-WARNING **: Failed to set text '<b>notify-send</b> - Tue 21 Nov 2017 04:54:39 PM EST
<Unit193> &acirc;&#150;&#132;&acirc;&#150;&#132;&acirc;&#150;&#132;&acirc;&#150;&#132;&acirc;&#150;&#132;&acirc;&#150;&#132;&acirc;&#150;&#132;&acirc;&#150;&#132;&acirc;&#150;&#132;&acirc;&#150;&#132;&acirc;&#150;&#132;&acirc;&#150;&#132;&acirc;&#150;&#132;' from markup due to error parsing markup: Error on line 2: Entity name 'acirc' is not known
<ochosi> and what do you put into notify-send exactly?
<ochosi> plus, what verson of notifyd is that?
<ochosi> (as you can see, i could use a bugreport)
<ali1234> notify-send '&acirc;' '&acirc;'
<ali1234> prints nothing for the message
<ali1234> only title
<ali1234> and i get that same warning in journalctl
<Unit193> It's a message containing 'âââââââââââââ', 0.4.0, and notify-send seems to be fine.  I just noticed it since the older one seems to handle it better.
<ali1234> Unit193: what happens if i highlight you and say Ã?
<Unit193> ali1234: Same deal, it doesn't do UTF8 well.
<ali1234> i dont think it is utf-8 as such
<ali1234> it seems like there are two bugs here
<Unit193> Difference between the old and new one is that the old one drops the message and the new one prints a bunch of fun.
<ochosi> weird, notify-send '&acirc;' '&acirc;' works fine for me
<ochosi> but the unicode stuff is not resolved, it's printed as is
<ali1234> first, your irc client is converting unicode code points into html entities, second something in the notify stack is not handling all html entities
<ochosi> but not swallowed
<ochosi> only pango is handled
<ochosi> not "all html"
<ali1234> notify-send Ã Ã works for me
<ali1234> but the html entity does not
<ochosi> also, the example from Unit193 also works for me (git master)
<ali1234> replacing codepoints by the html entity is a common strategy when trying to encode unicode
<ali1234> it isn't really a bug as such - but in this case it is because the receiver doesn't support html...
<ochosi> yeah, i don't know of a good way to handle html with glib
<ali1234> notify-send 'summary' '&#194;' <- this works
<ali1234> and that's the same char
<Unit193> I can fix that part, but I suppose the puking all over the screen is technically more what it's supposed to do.
<ali1234> pretty much
<Unit193> Just not very user friendly.
<ali1234> saw someone post one the other day that ended up drawing over the next several lines of irc
<ali1234> unicode is weird
<Unit193> notify-send "Subject" "\o/"  is fun too. :P 
<Unit193> ochosi: Right, so technically not wrong, but just not ideal really.
<ochosi> i wouldn't mind improving on this, i just have no idea how
<ochosi> i did look into these issues already at some point before 0.4.0
<ochosi> and things were even improved
<ali1234> btw you guys might like this if you run compiles in the bg all the time: http://paste.ubuntu.com/26015297/
<ochosi> but yeah, the status quo is what it is
<ali1234> alias make='notify-when-done make'
<ali1234> get a notification when it finishes, with the runtime and return code
<ochosi> sounds nice
<ochosi> will have to try that
<ochosi> crap, screenshooter fails to upload
<ochosi> Unit193: so this is also what you get..? https://imgur.com/a/mlUbj
<Unit193> ochosi: "nothing"?  I get more than nothing.
<ochosi> ehm, what do you mean "nothing"?
<ochosi> the â characters look ok in my notification bubble
<ali1234> the â have nothing to do with it
<ochosi> that was one example from above
<ali1234> the problem is caused specifically when Ã is sent as a html entity by name
<Unit193> ochosi: There didn't appear to be an image in that link, at least for me.
<ali1234> press reload
<ochosi> rly?
<ochosi> imgur looks ok for me
<ali1234> it didnt load for me either, at first
<ochosi> i would post a screenshot of it, but...
<ochosi> ;)
<Unit193> ...Alright, did that a few times and didn't, now it did.  Thanks?
<Unit193> ochosi: I mean, either way I suppose thanks since I fixed it now, buuut. :3
<ali1234> so two ways to fix this bug:
<ali1234> one, make irssi emit numerically escaped code points instead of the html named entities
<ali1234> two, make notify daemon accept html entities
<ali1234> three, make irssi output real utf-8, and make notify daemon ignore escaped entities entirely
<ochosi> option three sucks a little, because pango markup support is already there and in theory some html entities *should* be handled according to the notification spec
<Unit193> I wonder why the old one didn't print garbage. :3
<ali1234> they probably changed pango *shrug*
<ochosi> it just swallowed certain things
<ochosi> no, i changed some stuff
<ali1234> hmm okay if handling them is part of the spec
<Unit193> I used option three, pretty much.
<ali1234> then irssi is at fault
<Unit193> Well, stopped html encoding it and ran a sub on '\'
<ali1234> pidgin does a good job rendering unicode :)
<ochosi> at least i thought i did, need to find the commit...
<ali1234> also i never saw it send a messed up notification either
<Unit193> Irssi displays them fine, it's rnotify.pl that's at fault.
<ali1234> oh, your plugin?
<Unit193> I stole it from somewhere of course, but yeah.  It expects one to handle html encoded.
<ali1234> i would say, if you are able, encode everything as utf-8 and don't mess with it further
<Unit193> Yeah I disabled the html encoding (and added 's/\\/\\\\/g' to the script.)
<ali1234> what for with the regex?
<ali1234> auto escape slashes?
<ali1234> hmm
<ali1234> i wonder if that is part of the spec too
<ali1234> and what the person who wrote it was thinking
<ochosi> https://git.xfce.org/apps/xfce4-notifyd/commit/?id=8265b411339a390768f2c94f2bc2e0f9983da04b
<ochosi> there you go, that's the relevant change ^
<ali1234> hmm
<ali1234> well the spec is the spec
<ali1234> are you sure it says to not handle named entities though?
<ali1234> let me guess, it isn't actually specific?
<ochosi> iirc it isn't
<ochosi> https://developer.gnome.org/notification-spec/#markup
<ochosi> i think what's above is pretty much what we currently support
<ali1234> also https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NotifyOSD#Body_text
<ali1234> neither seems to mention entities tho
<ali1234> they don't actually specify the text encoding at all
<ochosi> if you want to see how far we currently follow the spec: https://docs.xfce.org/apps/notifyd/spec
<ochosi> i think everyone just uses pango
<ali1234> yep
<ochosi> not sure if notify-osd isn't a little dead with unity being dead
<ali1234> and nobody can implement a replacement even if they wanted to, because the spec is insufficient to do so
<Unit193> \o/
<ochosi> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NotificationDevelopmentGuidelines#If_a_notification_uses_a_hyperlink_or_text_formatting.2C_but_it.2BIBk-s_showing_up_as_plain_text
<ochosi> (and the following sections)
<ochosi> that's what you were looking for i think
<ali1234> nah, hyperlinks are unrelated
<ali1234> this is about text encoding ;0
<ali1234> the next section however...
<ochosi> yes, i said: and the following sections ;)
<ali1234> yeah, sorry :)
<ochosi> i like the "[This example code will be provided soon.]" :D
<ali1234> so it should not try to interpret them
<ali1234> or it should interpret them all, depending on what it advertises
<ali1234> ugh they could have choses less confusing examples there
<ali1234> hmmmmmm
<ali1234> i think what this is saying is that & should be transformed to &amp; by the program sending the message - ie any entities should be escaped, which means the notifyd will never have to interpret them
<ali1234> so what it does when it gets one is still undefined, but it should never get one
<ochosi> btw, i may have a more intruiging problem to debug for oyu
<ochosi> if you're at all interested
<ali1234> oh?
<ochosi> so i've been working on the xfce4-panel port for a while
<ochosi> and it's mostly stable now and i think we've reached feature-parity
<ochosi> (i don't ever get crashes etc)
<ochosi> but there is some odd behavior with respect to autohiding and intelli-hiding the panel
<ochosi> somehow the signals have doubled since gtk2, even though (or because?) the code is still the same
<ali1234> hmm double signals
<ochosi> and that makes the panel sometimes "flicker" (i.e. pop up and down quickly)
<ali1234> what signal specifically? where does it come from?
<ali1234> i don't know how any of that stuff works
<ali1234> is this a multimonitor setup?
<ochosi> so the way this works is there are two panel windows. one is an "autohide window" that is just 3px tall (for being able to reveal the panel again), the other is the actual panel window
<ochosi> one is always offscreen (at -9999/-9999)
<ochosi> and then with gtk_window_move the two windows change places and with a gtk_widget_queue_resize these updates should be triggered
<ali1234> why is it off screen rather than just being hidden?
<ochosi> the size_allocate signal is triggered (maybe too often?) and then the windows are really moved around
<ochosi> phu, no idea, i didn't question those decisions yet
<ochosi> i wanted to avoid having to rewrite that part tbh
<ochosi> i also have a branch that prints quite a lot of debug info so you can more easily follow what's going on
<ochosi> i can push that to a user repo if you'd be willing to take a look
<ochosi> (my eyes are just weary from looking, a fresh pair of them maybe see what's wrong more quickly)
<ali1234> window->autohide_state == AUTOHIDE_HIDDEN
<ali1234> what does this actually mean?
<ali1234> and POPUP too
<ochosi> that's handled in panel_window_size_allocate
<ali1234> yes i know
<ali1234> but what does it mean?
<ali1234> if it is true, what is that telling me about the window?
<ochosi> it means that the current state is that the autohide-window is shown and the panel window is hidden
<ochosi> the else hides the autohide-window
<ali1234> okay and what about POPUP?
<ochosi> i think POPUP is set while the panel is still hidden but it may be in the process of being shown
<ochosi> so the POPUP (unhide) is queued
<ochosi> but the panel is still hidden
<ochosi> because it
<ochosi> 's scheduled via the g_timeout_add_full
<ochosi> via panel_window_autohide_queue
<ali1234> hmm, so that means "if the panel is shown or about to be shown"
<ochosi> "if the panel is hidden or about to be shown but not yet shown"
<ali1234> but it says autohide_state == HIDDEN
<ochosi> yes, that means the panel is hidden
<ochosi> the autohide-window is shown
<ali1234>  ah yes, window-> vs window->autohide_window
<ochosi> yup
<ochosi> that's what i tried to explain earlier with moving the autohide window offscreen
<ali1234> so the first block is hiding the panel and showing the autohide
<ali1234> and the second bit is hiding the autohide and shoing the panel
<ochosi> yup, the else is for showing the panel
<ali1234> which way does the flicker happen?
<ochosi> one reason why i stumbled across the signal issue was that i wanted to try to implement a "slide out" animation for the panel
<ochosi> so it's clearer visually "where it goes"
<ochosi> https://bugzilla.xfce.org/show_bug.cgi?id=13640
<ubottu> bugzilla.xfce.org bug 13640 in General "Intelligent hiding: panel jumps out and in again (regression from 4.12.1)" [Normal,New]
<ochosi> the first comment has an instruction to reproduce
<ochosi> the later comment from Andre is not a regression
<ali1234> i can't install gtk3 stuff at the moment
<ochosi> you can try using the xfce-test docker container
<ali1234> does this happen at the top or the bottom panel? sides?
<ochosi> it compiles the panel within the container and you get access to it via xephyr
<ochosi> i only tested the top panel
<ali1234> i tried that once and i just got a black screen but i can try it again if you link me the instructions again :)
<ochosi> maybe that makes a difference, i never thought of testing other panel locations
<ochosi> https://github.com/schuellerf/xfce-test
<ochosi> the usage etc is in the readme.md
<ali1234> docker: Error response from daemon: invalid header field value "oci runtime error: container_linux.go:247: starting container process caused \"process_linux.go:334: running prestart hook 0 caused \\\"fork/exec /usr/bin/dockerd (deleted): no such file or directory\\\"\"\n".
<ali1234> yeah i really don't want to dig into that :/
<ochosi> did you pull from docker.io or build it locally?
<ochosi> the latter should always work
<ali1234> i followed the instructions in the readme
<ochosi> is the docker daemon running though?
<ali1234> i have absolutely no idea
<ochosi> :>
<ali1234> okay it's working :)
<ali1234> i can't reproduce
#xubuntu-devel 2017-11-22
<ochosi> ali1234: oh, hmm, so it's all fine for you? strange. i guess i have to test whether the docker container makes any difference
<ali1234> it seems to be
<ochosi> i mean functionally autohide and intelli-hide work as they should
<ochosi> it just seemed like there were unwanted flickers
<ochosi> caused by too many signals that made the panel hide/show more often than needed
<ali1234> its possible
<ochosi> did you hover the mouse over the top 3px when opening the menu?
<ali1234> no?
<ochosi> cause then the mouse stays on the autohide-window and triggers another hide/show
<ochosi> anyway, i'll try to write down clearer reproducing instructions tomorrow
<ali1234> okay i see
<ali1234> i can reproduce that - but it seems to be because the window open right under the mouse
<ali1234> something like this
<ali1234> 1. mouse enters autohide window, triggering unhide
<ali1234> 2. panel appears
<ali1234> 3. autohide window disappears - at this point the mouse leaves the autohide window because the autohide window moved, triggering a hide event
<ali1234> 4. panel gets hidden
<ali1234> 5. autohide window moved back under the mouse
<ali1234> 6. mouse is now in the autohide window triggering unhide
<ali1234> repeat...
<ali1234> if i click on the menu and then close it without moving the mouse the panel appears and reappears 3 times
<ali1234> but yeah, i'd look carefully at the mouse input events
<ochosi> yeah
<ochosi> just not sure how to solve that or why it worked in gtk2
<ali1234> signal order changed probably
<ali1234> i'd verify that input events get disabled on the autohide window as soon as its state changes
<ali1234> and before its position changes
<bluesabre> Seems like the lp build bots are stuck
<subhadip> Hi. I am a developer and I want to make myself useful in the Xubuntu development. Although I have gone through the articles mentioned on the website, I would like if somebody present here could talk about it or give me a pointer to begin with. Thanks.
<genii> subhadip: It's a slow week, but if you idle in here something will eventually happen :)
<subhadip> genii: I hope so :)
<Unit193> bluesabre: Part of the use of the upgrade tool is to remove packages as well, I'm fairly certain we're going to want to add a few to that this time around.  Keeping in mind that config won't override user config though.
<Unit193> Eg, we may not want to remove voluemd+-sound as pa-plug wouldn't get automatically added to the panel, -application, but mate/gnome switch is fine.
<ochosi> subh: hi, what would you like to work on?
<bluesabre> Unit193: makes sense. We also have some migration scripts that we may need to poke to update the keyboard shortcuts and whatnot
<ochosi> hey bluesabre 
<Unit193> :3
<bluesabre> hey ochosi 
<bluesabre> hey Unit193 
<Unit193> Hellos.
<ochosi> bluesabre: regarding the pa-plugin, what do you wanna do regarding flocculant's suggestions for the menu?
<bluesabre> ochosi: was planning on just trying a few different layout options and see what we like
<bluesabre> obviously somewhat limited with using a popup menu
<ochosi> yup
<ochosi> i would also try not to overload it
<bluesabre> Yup
<ochosi> so having all of this in one row seems a little excessive:
<ochosi> [ icon | volumescale | switch | submenu> ]
<bluesabre> I thought I might replace the current volume indicator icons with just a generic input/output device icon on the device selection above
<ochosi> if there is such an icon in "the icon themes" then why not
<bluesabre> yeah
<ochosi> it's probably not what people are used to seeing there...
<ochosi> but it could work ok
<bluesabre> Yeah
<bluesabre> Current version feels unbalanced
<bluesabre> Volume indicator on a different row from the slider also feels wrong
<bluesabre> So thought that would be the next experiment
<ochosi> another suggestion is to go back to a larger icon with rowspan=2
<bluesabre> yeah
<ochosi> also, i think with the scale next to the icon it's little superfluous to have the icon update according to the volume state (apart from muted)
<bluesabre> yeah
<ochosi> the scale tells you much more nicely what the actual state is
<bluesabre> except it doesn't convey muted at all
<bluesabre> But the switch is right next to it
<bluesabre> So thats fine
<bluesabre> The icon gives the clearest indication of the current state
<bluesabre> Another option is to move the scale row to the top and have the options below (if more than 1)
<bluesabre> The icon identifies whether it is in or out and current state
<bluesabre> The rest is just extra
<ochosi> the scale could convey muted, but then you would have to set it to insensitive
<ochosi> which would be a feature loss imo
<bluesabre> Yup
<ochosi> because it's nice to be able to control what volume you "unmute" to
<bluesabre> I like adjusting volume before unmuting
<ochosi> maybe moving the output below the scale would work better
<bluesabre> Yeah
<ochosi> than the bold text could also be dropped
<ochosi> because it wouldn't be a headline anymore
<bluesabre> Sounds like an improvement
<ochosi> would make it more readable
<ochosi> and the volume icon would just be a boolean
<bluesabre> Might even be necessary since I'm going to add device channels at some point
<ochosi> i still like the idea of having the icon itself used as "mute" button, but it's not discoverable enough
<bluesabre> It might be
<bluesabre> More things for me to play with
<ochosi> regarding the xubuntu cycle, do you really wanna work on pidgin?
<bluesabre> ochosi: only if I find that the patch doesn't take days to work out
<ochosi> just because it's on our blueprint yet again
<ochosi> (i'd personally like it because i like the theme and it was some work too)
<bluesabre> Yup
<bluesabre> I'd like to have it
<bluesabre> More things to show off
<bluesabre> Also saw
<bluesabre>  [xubuntu-dev] thunar: Provide more default custom actions (printing, convert to pdf): TODO
<bluesabre> I think you added this?
<ochosi> yeah
<ochosi> the printing can be done for images and especially pdfs with lpr
<ochosi> very simple one
<ochosi> if we want libreoffice support too, it'd have to be a bash-script so we can handle both
<ochosi> and convert to pdf would work for .docx, .ods via libreoffice too
<ochosi> for everything else we *could* use imagemagick, but it's probably too heavy to ship on our default image just for that
<ochosi> (at least i think we don't ship it currently)
<ochosi> i just felt thinking about some custom actions wouldn't hurt
<ochosi> and those two i have on every laptop of mine, so i thought i'd propose them
<bluesabre> ochosi: sounds handy
<bluesabre> want to submit a MP or bug report with those?
<bluesabre> We'll need translations for those, so getting them in earlier would be better
<ochosi> yeah, the lpr one is almost done
<bluesabre> Unit193: want to get some fresh packaging together for  [xubuntu-dev] elementary-xfce: Split packaging for distribution improvements: TODO ? We could land it in Xubuntu first and propose it to debian
<ochosi> still lacking the "patterns" prat
<Unit193> bluesabre: Who'd be maintaining it in Debian?  And could try and assist.
<bluesabre> Unit193: probably us, elementary-xfce could go into pkg-xfce
<ochosi> iirc we discussed adding all kinds of distro logos and handling symlinking to distributor-logo via the packaging
<ochosi> then there would be no split packaging needed
<ochosi> or did you have anything else in mind?
<bluesabre> basically, it's packaged now as "xubuntu-icon-theme" in Ubuntu
<bluesabre> it could be "elementary-xfce" and "xubuntu-icon-theme" could be a branded version that just provides the alt distributor-logo to the elementary-xfce themes
<bluesabre> or smth
<bluesabre> Gives more flexibility to flavors and our downstreams that we don't want using our logo
<ochosi> right, the flavors argument makes sense
<ochosi> i think pasi already prepped everything in the icon theme
<bluesabre> and general availability in more than *buntu means more users and maybe more contributors
<bluesabre> He did
<bluesabre> Just need a packaging poke
<ochosi> so be aware of that for the next upload
<ochosi> indeed
<bluesabre> ochosi: I'll probably take a look at libreoffice soon and send you some missing icon notes
<ochosi> ah right, that too
<ochosi> the save as icon is fairly prominent...
<bluesabre> :)
<bluesabre> ochosi: need anything else from me?
<Unit193> bluesabre: Oh, and general poke about all your Debian packages. :P
<bluesabre> Unit193: indeed, need to refresh those
<bluesabre> everything was easier when I could just svn-inject my updates
<ochosi> bluesabre: well more patches would be nice ;)
<Unit193> gbp is soooo much easier.
<bluesabre> ochosi: sure thing, I'll start submitting more PRs when I can get away with symlinks or other people's work
<bluesabre> you probably don't want my icon handiwork
<Unit193> And you usually keep me far away from all things artwork and design too. :(
<ochosi> symlinks should hopefully do a lot of the jobs
<ochosi> i totally forgot how ridonculous the LO icon themes were...
<bluesabre> :D
<ochosi> pfff
<ochosi> they added savemodified_extralarge.png
<ochosi> used to be just "savemodified_large.png"
<genii> I'm still waiting for all icons to be svg
<bluesabre> ochosi, glad you're quick to find them though
<ochosi> well...
<ochosi> genii: the icons in my theme are svg
<ochosi> they're just png-ified for LO
<bluesabre> we should try to get these all fixed by Dec/Jan, LibreOffice 6 is due then, I believe
 * genii pats ochosi on the back for good work
<bluesabre> aha
<bluesabre> Week 51 , Dec 18, 2017 - Dec 24, 2017 Libreoffice 6 UI freeze
<bluesabre> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/ReleasePlan/6.0
 * bluesabre appreciates having ochosi around
<ochosi> crap, i have no idea anymore how pull requests against LO work with their gerrit :'(
<ochosi> anyway, time to sleep
<ochosi> (downside of having this merged to upstream)
<bluesabre> nighty ochosi
<Unit193> Could be worse, could be what KDE is using. :P
<ochosi> sucks also that Sweetshark was sacked by canonical, so no help from the desktop team anymore...
#xubuntu-devel 2017-11-23
<bluesabre> flocculant, ochosi, this seems like an improvement https://i.imgur.com/cXWUI52.png
<bluesabre> options moved below, only shown if more than 1 device found, no longer bold, no longer including device type
<bluesabre> Unit193: thoughts?
<Unit193> Hi.
<bluesabre> Howdy.
<Unit193> I'm fairly sure I'm not the best to ask.
<bluesabre> :D
<Unit193> Perhaps it's good?
<Unit193> (I plan on upgrading to ayatana-indicator-sound.)
<bluesabre> Alrighty
<Unit193> No offence meant. :3
<bluesabre> None taken. Just more work to do to convert you ;)
<Unit193> Based on the planned UI, I'm not too keen.  The function of the play/pause/etc is a bit finicky still, ayatana looks a bit better, and I can't stand switches (which I gather others like, soo..)
<Unit193> I'm willing to test of course, mind.
<subh> ochosi: Hi, thanks for replying. Sorry I fell asleep. I know a bit python, not so good with c++. But I am good at learning new stuffs. So can you tell me if I can work on anything with my current skillset or do I need to acquire anything new to be able to contribute to anything to start with?
<Unit193> bluesabre's applications tend to be python, Xfce is in C.
<Unit193> (ochosi is the artwork guy, bluesabre is head of dev, I'm all around noise maker.)
<bluesabre> gtk-theme-config is in vala
<bluesabre> We have a few different options available :)
<bluesabre> subh: We usually recommend just starting by looking around at bug reports or digging into things that are broken and annoy you
<bluesabre> The best way to get started is to be selfish :)
<Unit193> We should create a list of low hanging fruit.
<subh> bluesabre: I understand. But it can still be a lot for somebody who's just starting. 
<subh> Had I asked you to give me something to start with, would you have anything in mind?
<bluesabre> subh: maybe take a look at https://launchpad.net/sgt-launcher, it has a pretty simple code base and shows off some standard GTK+ python conventions
<bluesabre> subh: otherwise, things that probably have some bugs in order of complexity ascending: lightdm-gtk-greeter-settings (https://launchpad.net/lightdm-gtk-greeter-settings), mugshot (https://launchpad.net/mugshot), catfish (https://launchpad.net/catfish-search), and menulibre (https://launchpad.net/menulibre)
<bluesabre> I wish I'd already identified some easy to tackle bugs, but if I did, they'd be tackled :)
<subh> bluesabre: I understand your point :) I will go through those projects and try to pick up unresolved bugs. And I might ask you if I need any help. Thanks again.
<bluesabre> Sure thing, thanks subh!
<flocculant> bluesabre: mmm - my 'issue' though is that it just looks like it's hanging there without the icon
<krytarik> With regards to the Custom Actions discussion earlier tonight, I should probably mention that we indeed have imagemagick on the images currently anyway, pulled in as a recommend of cups-filters.
<ochosi> bluesabre: indeed, that feels better!
<bluesabre> flocculant: it looks a bit better with greybird where the separator line is visible, https://i.imgur.com/ywkoKcx.png
<bluesabre> (looks like ochosi still needs to make the 100% tick visible in greybird)
<knome> that subh* guy needs to be around more ;)
<knome> slickymaster, around?
<knome> apparently not
<knome> what is atril's menu item name?
<knome> is it "Document Viewer" or not?
<knome> flexiondotorg, ^
<knome> i guess i could also look it up but feeling lazy
<bluesabre> knome: "Atril Document Viewer" it seems
<knome> right
<knome> cheerio
<bluesabre> :)
<bluesabre> flocculant: I added multimedia key support to pa-plug... currently in git
<knome> https://code.launchpad.net/~knome/xubuntu-docs/bionic-mate-apps-migration
<knome> a docs branch ready to be merged if/once we decide to do the migration for good
<knome> pleia2, flyer is updated with the new logo... though the content is still the same :)
<knome> we need to update at least the screenshot
<knome> ochosi, what do you think if we actually moved onto one single plymouth background from 18.04?
<knome> ochosi, eg. not a blurred version of the wallpaper, but something that was specifically "designed" for this?
<knome> i guess everybody else as well ^
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xubuntu-docs:: [bionic-mate-apps-migration] r641 Prepare the change to MATE apps.... (by Pasi Lallinaho)
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xubuntu-docs:: [bionic-mate-apps-migration] r642 Update changelog... (by Pasi Lallinaho)
<knome> pleia2, i made some notes about updating the flyer here: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/xubuntu-b-marketing
<knome> slickymaster, ^
<knome> bbl
<knome> subh, hello, and welcome ;)
<knome> subh, i've read you want to get involved with xubuntu before and just wanted to say hello before i leave... and say that feel free to ask any questions about anything related to xubuntu in this channel, regardless if people (you know) are around or not - we will eventually reply
<knome> but now, off to do sth completely different
<knome> o/
<pleia2> knome: ok thanks, I'll have a look :)
<subh> knome: Thanks! Will do. :)
<flocculant> bluesabre: if I had multimedia keys on the kbd I would test it ... sorry this time ;)
<flocculant> bluesabre: re plugin - I'm not seeing anything in that imgur screeny that stops it - in fact the same thing can be seen at the bottom where Audio mixer ... random white space at the left
<pleia2> knome: made some edits to the description to add some of my flyer ideas, it's time to add social media links! ;)
<knome> pleia2, yeah... and do we really want to keep with the 3-fold? :)
<pleia2> yeah, it's a thing
<knome> haha
<knome> ok
<knome> i suggest 6-fold then
<knome> because it's obviously two times better!
<pleia2> trollol
<knome> and it can fit the amount of content we can realistically maintain (:
<pleia2> what would you suggest instead?
<knome> (that was as much pointed to myself than anybody else)
<knome> well, maybe 2-fold
<knome> it's also easier to do for most people
<pleia2> like a card?
<knome> yeah, it could be like a card
<knome> and with that thought, i think it could be smaller too
<pleia2> yeah
<pleia2> the current one has too many words
<knome> like half of the current total paper space
 * pleia2 nods
<knome> so A6 for the page size, meaning an A5 folded once
<knome> eg. two flyers per paper
<knome> we'll of course always have the "old" layout too, so we can still peruse that in case we have a special event or sth coming up
<knome> there's quite a lot in the current flyer we can drop without too much pain
<pleia2> I'll have to look into what makes sense for professional printing
<knome> like the "asides", the debian, xfce stuff
<pleia2> currently a 3-panel one is a thing places do, not sure about 1 per letter page
<pleia2> s/1/2
<knome> usually it's the standard sizes, so A5 is just as good as A4 for example
<knome> right, professional printing meaning small print shops that print the stuff for you "live"
<knome> yeah, but even if they only did one sheet, it's relatively easy to cut it into half
<knome> so even if they don't offer that...
<knome> i mean ultimately we could even look into a yet smaller one
<pleia2> yeah, but with vistaprint they even folded the 3 panel ones for me, that was spiffy :)
<knome> yeah
<knome> like a postcard-card
<pleia2> I think a post card size we're getting into different terratory, not much of a flyer anymore
<knome> that's something completely different from a flyer, but it can serve the same purpose in a better way
<knome> sure, but then again we can point people to our website more
<knome> which is easier to maintain
<knome> and then the printed stuff doesn't get outdated so fast
<knome> but yes, i realize these are two different things
<knome> which one would you rather pick up from a convention/event?
<knome> a 3-fold US letter sized thing or a postcard?
<pleia2> idk :)
<flexiondotorg> knome: Saw the earlier ping about Atril naming. 
<knome> the postcard could even be designed as a postcard... like the address field etc. ready
<pleia2> that would be cute
<knome> flexiondotorg, we figured it out, it's "Atril Document Viewer", right?
<knome> yep
<flexiondotorg> There is a simple way for me to address this for Xubuntu. 
<knome> flexiondotorg, the question was simply for our documentation purposes
<flexiondotorg> If you want to drop the Atril prefix. 
<knome> nah, it's fine :)
<flexiondotorg> OK
<knome> pleia2, so then a nice image on the "front" and some preprinted text on the back of the card
<knome> plus probably some space for a customized message (or even autograph :P)
<knome> and then the usual postcard stuff
<knome> i can draft this relatively quickly if we want to investigate it
<knome> "The only ISO 216 size in the post card range is A6."
<knome> which is not a problem, but actually a good thing, because one size only, right? :P
<pleia2> maybe something to explore separate from the flyer :)
<knome> sure
<knome> i would still propose to migrate away from the 3-fold
<pleia2> yeah it should be fine, probably want postcards printed on cardstock so printing at home is less likely
<knome> but if you want to keep that... i'll live with it
<knome> yep
<knome> hmm, well, it seems vistaprint for example doesn't want A6, but tbh, it's easy enough to do one design and then just cut the borders from the smaller one
<pleia2> yeah
<knome> or even do two very similar designs
<pleia2> so the only reason I'd stick with the 3-panel is because we've already figured out sizing and stuff, we can just put in more pictures if we want it to be less tl;dr
<knome> lol
<knome> wfm
<knome> and yes, we probably want to do that
<knome> want a pad in which to figure out the text?
<pleia2> sure
<knome> will put the text in here: http://pad.ubuntu.com/xubuntu-1804-flyer
<knome> i just started editing there, removing text i want to delete (eg. not striking through)
<pleia2> ok
<knome> because blah
<pleia2> I need to get ready for family things momentarily
<knome> sure, np
<knome> hf :)
<pleia2> thanks :)
<subh> \quit
<knome> i'm starting to think about the scribus alternative again...
<ochosi> knome: re: plymouth yeah sounds sensible
<ochosi> bluesabre: yeah, i still need to make that tick visible...
<ochosi> woohoo, managed to create a LO pull request \o/ https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/#/c/45175/
<ochosi> bluesabre: ok, the marks below the scale in pulseaudio plugin are now visible with Greybird
#xubuntu-devel 2017-11-24
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xubuntu-artwork:: [greybird] r534 Tweak sidebar style and optimize rubberband... (by Simon SteinbeiÃ)
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xubuntu-artwork:: [greybird] r535 Make marks for GtkScales visible... (by Simon SteinbeiÃ)
<knome> slickymasterWork, yeah, well, in a branch to be merged when a decision is done
<slickymasterWork> noticed it
<knome> slickymasterWork, and while i looked at that page, we might want to make it a tad "longer" in the sense of saying more about the stuff we mention
<slickymasterWork> just ack it
<knome> -- or not mention it
<knome> yup
<slickymasterWork> agree knome 
<slickymasterWork> will take care of that
<slickymasterWork> regarding the three
<bluesabre> knome: we have the option of shipping overrides for the launchers if we choose to, and working with the MATE folks and whatnot
<knome> bluesabre, sure, but that was not my question or concern... i'm fine with the launcher saying "Atril", but i needed to know if it said that or not to be able to refer to the right menu item in the documentation :P
<bluesabre> Gotcha
<knome> bbl
<subh> Hi. I was looking into the bug report: https://bugs.launchpad.net/lightdm-gtk-greeter-settings/+bug/1507983. The timeout configuration is not working at the time of login but it is working from lock screen. I turned on the debugging and checked the /var/log/lightdm/seat0-greeter.log after logging in, it says '** Message: [Configuration] Reading file: /etc/lightdm/lightdm-gtk-greeter.conf' but it's not
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1507983 in lightdm-gtk-greeter-settings (Ubuntu) "Timeout until screen blanks setting does nothing" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<subh> using the screensaver-timeout config. Any help is appreciated.
<flocculant> subh: first thing - are you using the same version of lightdm-gtk-greeter-settings? Pretty sure that issue's not visible here (using 1.2.1-2) definitely get blank at login if I wander off here
<subh> flocculant: I was using 1.2.1-0ubuntu1 version which is available in 16.04.3 since the bug was last reported for 16.04.
<flocculant> subh: ok - so the next thing you need to find out if it's only seen in that older version. If it is - then the only way that would get back to 16.04.x would be with an SRU - I'm not sure fixing that would be important enough to qualify for SRU.
<flocculant> wouldn't want you to do work and find it was all for no fix landing
<subh> flocculant: makes sense. I will test it on the latest version and update here.
<subh> flocculant: Tested on a fresh install of bionic with lightdm-gtk-greeter-settings version 1.2.1-2. Does not work on login screen. But lock screen works fine.
<flocculant> I'll check again here in a minute - set it whatver random amount I can get it to at the low end
<flocculant> subh: ok - confirm setting that to less than 5 minutes and no screen blank at login screen
<flocculant> booting iso to check that too 
<flocculant> I believe that the correct course of action to fix it now would be to fix it for bionic first - someone like bluesabre or Unit193 or ochosi will be able to confirm that
<flocculant> iso logged out - wait and see what happens there
<flocculant> so that fails after almost 50 minutes to blank
<knome> pleia2, so i fought and made a scribus version of the flyer... and i think we're going to use that :P
<ochosi> flocculant, subh: so the timeout doesn't do anything at all?
<ochosi> or does it just blank the screen after "a certain amount of time" but the setting has no effect?
<ochosi> from what i remember the greeter uses the system-wide settings of the x server
<ochosi> so what you configure within your session with "xset s $time" as time to blank is pre-set on a systemwide level
<ochosi> i'll quickly check the source code to see what it actually tries to do there...
<ochosi> ok, so the screensaver is only supposed to run when the greeter is used as a lock screen, not as login screen
<ochosi> simple as that
<ochosi> ok, commented on the bugreport
<ochosi> to clarify this for everyone
<flocculant> ochosi: thanks for looking :)
<ochosi> no problem
#xubuntu-devel 2017-11-25
<subh> ochosi: Thanks :)
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xubuntu-default-settings:: [trunk] r650 Launchpad automatic translations update. (by Launchpad Translations on behalf of xubuntu-dev)
<ochosi> weird, simple scan seems to be buggy/broken in artful
<ochosi> i don't see my scanned pages
<ochosi> wondering if that's a problem of widget packing/us not using headerbars
<flocculant> ochosi: was working last time I used it there - still works in bionic here the other day
<flocculant> bbl
<ochosi> i'm wondering whether it
<ochosi> 's possible that the elementary libreoffice theme in ubuntu is not up-to-date..
<ochosi> unpacking the zip suggests that at least (and that also explains some missing icons)
<ochosi> bluesabre: maybe we should either make the setting clearer in -settings or always apply the screensaver timeout in the greeter: https://bugs.launchpad.net/lightdm-gtk-greeter/+bug/1507983
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1507983 in LightDM GTK+ Greeter "Timeout until screen blanks setting does nothing" [Wishlist,Confirmed]
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: xfce4-pulseaudio-plugin 0.3.3 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-xfce4-pulseaudio-plugin-0-3-3-released-tp50098.html (by Sean Davis-6)
<bluesabre> ochosi: the latter sounds sensible
<ochosi> congrats on the release, bluesabre 
<bluesabre> thanks ochosi 
<bluesabre> simple scan works here for me on artful
<bluesabre> maybe your scanner is broken :o
<ochosi> if i click save the content is there
<ochosi> but there is no preview/view of it
<ochosi> maybe you wanna link the bugreport to our devel blueprint so we fix it this cycle
<ochosi> really strange, the content of libreoffice git and ubuntu's pkg is not the same...
<ochosi> they really should have kept Sweetshark around :/
<bluesabre> ochosi: I think there is some process involve when they go to release that merges the icon sets
<bluesabre> but I don't know that for sure
<ochosi> we should definitely check
<ochosi> maybe i've also fiddled with my system
<ochosi> so just to be sure, if you could check too...
<bluesabre> Sure thing
<bluesabre> ochosi: so I should just compare the icon packs on git vs ubuntu?
<ochosi> yeah, pretty much
<ochosi> you can check for savechanged_large.png
<ochosi> i couldn't find that on ubuntu whereas it's in libreoffice git, in the core repo
<ochosi> (i'd recommend a shallow clone, the repo is fairly... huge)
<bluesabre> ochosi: latest bionic proposed package, these are the "save" files http://paste.ubuntu.com/26043237/
<bluesabre> 1:5.4.3-0ubuntu1 
<bluesabre> if you'd landed them anytime since 5.4's UI freeze, probably won't see them until the next major point release
<ochosi> bluesabre: but savechanged_* are missing
<ochosi> and those are in libreoffice git
<bluesabre> ochosi: I'd go ahead and file a bug in lp for it
<bluesabre> Maybe we can find Sweetshark v2
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: thunar 1.6.13 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-thunar-1-6-13-released-tp50102.html (by AndrÃ© Miranda)
<bluesabre> oh boy!
<flocculant> heh
<flocculant> I was just going to ask if we're going to that :D
<bluesabre> considering the trouble we've had in the past with thunar, let's start in experimental for that
<flocculant> bluesabre: yea :D
<flocculant> can't make :D anymore uppercase - even though I'd want to lol
<Unit193> Yeah was going to say, not gonna touch that one. :P
<flocculant> ha ha ha 
<slickymaster> :)
<flocculant> I do at least use thunar a fair bit every day 
<slickymaster> on a regular basis here
<bluesabre> just need to upload pa-plug and thunar to experimental this weekend to play with
<flocculant> lmao - everyone is coming out of the woodwork to laugh at the thunar update 
<flocculant> woohoo
<bluesabre> pa-plug should be fine, but good to test anyway
<slickymaster> lol
<flocculant> bluesabre: yep - look forward to that 
<Unit193> bluesabre: Already in svn, wasn't me.
<ochosi> to be honest i've been using git master (coming 1.7.0) for quite a while now and it was more stable than thunar was in the past years
<ochosi> bluesabre, flocculant: regarding the libreoffice icon theme we'd have to talk to osomon in #ubuntu-desktop
<Unit193> One user isn't good enough testing. :>
<ochosi> and i guess we need to test the state of LO git master
<flocculant> ochosi: ack - saw that in the channel - guessed the action there was you :p
<flocculant> ochosi: I'll test anything within reason
<ochosi> Unit193: obviously
<bluesabre> ochosi: good to see others are also contributing to the lo-elementary theme
<Unit193> ochosi: Not trying to overrule you or anything, I'm just a bit worried about repeating history.  As far as the gtk3 version goes though, I'd prefer to hold off a bit since there's other plugins in the repo that won't have time to port.
<Unit193> I never really hit that issue much either, it was mostly my reading flocculant and getting a bit frustrated that nothing would fix it, and I couldn't properly reproduce it myself. :/
<flocculant> Unit193: you talking about thunar?
<bluesabre> Definitely don't recommend shipping thunar 1.7.x
<bluesabre> Too risky and the pains of the last bad thunar still haunt me
<flocculant> :)
<bluesabre> Time to head out for the day
<flocculant> have fun
<bluesabre> Unit193: if you want to package some things into exp, that'd be cool, otherwise will do them tonight/tomorrow
<Unit193> :3
<knome> hmm
<ochosi> Unit193: oh sorry, i was not suggesting we ship it :)
<ochosi> but offering it in a PPA might still be valuable (qa-experimental)
<ochosi> knome: thanks for the snail mail <3
<flocculant> wfm
<knome> ochosi, good good :)
<ochosi> so regarding the LO theme: in the 5.4 branch the needed icons weren't there already
<ochosi> so someone else added them
<ochosi> so we'll get them in the next LO release
<Unit193> https://anonscm.debian.org/git/pkg-mate/numix-gtk-theme.git/commit/?id=3d392cfec62dcd4ff464e9c1b656723ba42072fd - https://anonscm.debian.org/git/pkg-mate/numix-gtk-theme.git/commit/?id=8411a588466593973a3d2c33db30be19723e0730
<ochosi> bluesabre: we should also test LO 6beta asap, i presume the missing icons are already integrated there (so we may be just fine in LTS)
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: thunar 1.7.0 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-thunar-1-7-0-released-tp50105.html (by AndrÃ© Miranda)
<ochosi> bluesabre: so just fyi, LO 6.0 looks okayish with elementary. not that much work there at first glance
#xubuntu-devel 2017-11-26
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ATTN: Xubuntu Core 18.04 - i386 - i386 built.
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ATTN: Xubuntu Core 18.04 - amd64 - amd64 built.
<flocculant> ochosi: I got a bit confused with all ^^ - were you talking about thunar gtk3 in qa-exp ?
<flocculant> bluesabre: anyway we can call MATE Calculator just Calculator in the menu?
<ochosi> flocculant: yes, having thunar-gtk3 in the exp ppa was my suggestion :)
<flocculant> okey doke - can go along with that :D
<Unit193> https://packages.qa.debian.org/t/thunar/news/20171126T195207Z.html
#xubuntu-devel 2018-11-19
<Sableye> Hi!!
<Sableye> ...
<Unit193> https://sunweavers.net/blog/node/78 not sure if this is worth linking.
#xubuntu-devel 2018-11-22
<amerigena> Bug with xfce4-windowmenu-plugin
<amerigena> Not sure how to report it
<Unit193> Likely from wherever you got it, that's not packaged.
<amerigena> Got it from upstream. So I report it to the Xfce 4 developers?
<amerigena> I installed xfce4* on top of the 19.04 release
<amerigena> And it did the same thing with 18.10
<amerigena> Unit193 : should have rebooted before asking that question
<amerigena> Thanks for the courtesy of a reply
<sorinello> Unit193, do you know of some issues with the xubuntu-core 18.10 x64 ISO ? I get an error in the same point when installing with VMWare Workstation 15. The installer crashed
<sorinello> I have a full syslog if you want to take a look
#xubuntu-devel 2018-11-23
<Unit193> sorinello: I am not aware of one, no.
<sorinello> Unit193, should I pastebin pe syslog file ?
<Unit193> I won't be able to get to it any time soon.
<tracker6> hi
<tracker6> hello
<knome> hello
<tracker6> what are your doing?
<knome> hmm.
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: xfce4-screensaver 0.1.3 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-xfce4-screensaver-0-1-3-released-tp52174.html (by Sean Davis-6)
<sorinello> Unit193, I have saved it locally, when/if you will want to give a look, I can pastebin the file.
<pleia2> Canonical IS has pad.ubuntu.com on their decommissioning list and they're trying to determine who all is using it, I let them know that we do, but we should start thinking of alternatives in case they do decide to get rid of it
<pleia2> hopefully now that they know we're using it, at the very least they'd let us know so we can make backups of things /o\
<ochosi> pleia2: yeah, would be a shame if they remove it. otherwise we can try to go with some other open etherpad... but the nice part was openid auth
 * pleia2 nods
 * flocculant double checks times and UTC 
<flocculant> !team | half an hourish for tonight's meeting
<ubottu> half an hourish for tonight's meeting: akxwi-dave, bluesabre, flocculant, jjfrv8, knome, krytarik, ochosi, pleia2, slickymaster and Unit193
 * bluesabre waves
<flocculant> evening :)
<bluesabre> evening flocculant 
<flocculant> at least you adn I then 
 * ochosi is here against all odds
<bluesabre> woohoo!
<bluesabre> I could say the same... with DST changes, this time is actually when I normally get off work
<flocculant> timezones ...
<flocculant> !meeting
<ubottu> Next scheduled Xubuntu community meeting and the agenda can be found at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings
<flocculant> so - other than bluesabre and ochosi =- anyone else about?
<bluesabre> (#startmeeting?)
<flocculant> that's how often I do it :D
<flocculant> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Fri Nov 23 22:01:07 2018 UTC.  The chair is flocculant. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<bluesabre> :)
<flocculant> windered where the bot got  to :D
<bluesabre> that was my contribution, good to go now
<bluesabre> :D
 * flocculant ponders things to see if anyone else shows up 
<ochosi> do we have a clear agenda?
<flocculant> yea 
<flocculant> it's about 10 yards long 
<ochosi> kewl, sry, i'm lagging a bit behind
<flocculant> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings
<ochosi> trying to fix a few xfce panel bugs meanwhile
<ochosi> k
<ochosi> no open action items i guess
<ochosi> regarding updates and announcements, only from upstream from my side
<flocculant> okey doke - so 
<flocculant> #topic Open action items
<flocculant> all done 
<flocculant> #topic Updates/Announcements
<flocculant> ochosi has none
<flocculant> neither do I 
<flocculant> bluesabre ?
<ochosi> well depends, if you're interested in upstream xfce updates i can mention some stuff
<ochosi> and i guess bluesabre wants to mention his recent screensaver release
<flocculant> I'd guess so
<bluesabre> Sure
<bluesabre> #info xfce4-screensaver 0.1.3 released, https://mail.xfce.org/pipermail/xfce-announce/2018-November/000651.html, more on this later
<flocculant> saw that one - where is it :p
<bluesabre> Somewhere
<flocculant> :D
<bluesabre> Not packaged yet, I think
<flocculant> ack
<ochosi> #info new development release of xfce-panel coming up soon, quite a few fixes since the previous version already
<bluesabre> But it's a good one ;)
<flocculant> re these updates - we only have 1 up to date dev ppa - will verything get there?
<ochosi> #info "primary display" support added to xfdesktop (which pretty much completes the feature in xfce) https://simon.shimmerproject.org/2018/11/12/adventures-in-primary-display-land/
<bluesabre> flocculant: yup :)
<flocculant> anything else?
<bluesabre> nothing from me
<bluesabre> my life has been a screensaver for the last several weeks
<flocculant> mine has been for 13 years ...
 * bluesabre waggles the mouse
<flocculant> anyway - let's move swiftly along then :)
<ochosi> that's it from me too
<flocculant> #topic Discussions
<flocculant> #subtopic Â£" bit
<flocculant> sigh
<flocculant> #undo
<meetingology> Removing item from minutes: SUBTOPIC
<bluesabre> :)
<flocculant> #subtopic 32 Bit
<flocculant> so - given than we've now got no upgrades from 32 bit of any real use - I propose we finally kill this off
<bluesabre> related, https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=LibreOffice-6.2-Beta-1 LibreOffice 6.2 deprecates 32-bit builds
<flocculant> and that won't help 
<bluesabre> nope
<flocculant> I think we should do a mailing list team vote on this one
<bluesabre> I agree.
<flocculant> ochosi: ?
<ochosi> yeah
<ochosi> agreed
<ochosi> (both, the killing off and the ML)
<ochosi> if the ML yields no relevant/clear results, we can take it to the council to decide
<flocculant> #action flocculant to mail list for Team vote on 32 bit
<meetingology> ACTION: flocculant to mail list for Team vote on 32 bit
<flocculant> #subtopic Minimal Install for Core-like experience 
 * flocculant lets bluesabre have a warble 
<bluesabre> So, with the addition of the minimal install option on the ISO, there's more resistance than ever to approve and merge our patches to make Xubuntu Core official... 
<ochosi> :/
<bluesabre> ... and there's basically a single person that is the gatekeeper of that now, so meh
<ochosi> this has been going on for far too long anyway
<bluesabre> Yup
<flocculant> right
<bluesabre> So I propose, we go the alternative route and add the minimal install option that the other flavors and main have opted for
<bluesabre> Same disk image, but with the option to install a subset of the packages
<flocculant> yea - from memory it's not quite the same - just a bunch of blacklisting?
<bluesabre> (technically it installs all the packages, then removes, but whatever)
<ochosi> urgh
<flocculant> mmm
<ochosi> so it really misses the point of a minimal install from my pov
<flocculant> ochosi: I'd agree
<ochosi> that's like passing an apt-get remove shell-script when you first start your session
<bluesabre> Yup
<ochosi> if the iso isn't smaller and the diskspace needed to complete the installation successfully, what's the point?
<ochosi> (a nor is missing there)
<ochosi> so while i usually agree with you, i'm not sure this helps people a lot bluesabre 
<bluesabre> Just starting out with fewer installed packages. The diskspace savings is probably not substantial enough that it would be a different disk or partition, so that's not really the concern.
<flocculant> well
<bluesabre> Indeed.
<flocculant> for those people that want a minimal setup - the work's done for them?
<bluesabre> Yeah
<bluesabre> It's the core experience once the install's done
<ochosi> still feels misleading to call that minimal, but i guess if people are used to this from the other flavors...
<bluesabre> And it means 1 or 2 ISOs to test instead of 2 or 4
<flocculant> not getting drawn into that one ...
<bluesabre> :D
<flocculant> anyway - given there are just us - mailing list?
<bluesabre> So yeah, probably another thing to send off for vote.
<ochosi> yeah, probably
<ochosi> although the benefit needs to be clarified from my pov
<flocculant> yea
<ochosi> we get potentially more stuff to test
<flocculant> #chair bluesabre 
<meetingology> Current chairs: bluesabre flocculant
 * bluesabre sits
<flocculant> so you can do stuff 
<ochosi> and users get a minimal setup, but only after providing enough diskspace
<flocculant> #chair ochosi
<meetingology> Current chairs: bluesabre flocculant ochosi
 * ochosi bows
<flocculant> cos how can ignore ochosi :)
<flocculant> who even
<bluesabre> #action bluesabre to mail the list to vote on minimal install ubiquity option
<meetingology> ACTION: bluesabre to mail the list to vote on minimal install ubiquity option
<flocculant> #subtopic Orage
<flocculant> there's been some talk in channel about this
<bluesabre> Anything beyond "I don't use that"?
<flocculant> with some people not even sure we seeded it still :p
<ochosi> hehe
<ochosi> well i'm all for dropping it
<pleia2> I love orage
<flocculant> ^^ was ochosi I think :)
<ochosi> rly?
<pleia2> how else would I get 4 timezones in my panel?
<ochosi> pleia2: well it's good to hear ppl disagreeing, because i have a very clear opinion on it...
<flocculant> ochosi: I thought so ?
<flocculant> anyway
<ochosi> pleia2: wait, that's it..? the regular panel clock plugin can do that too...
<pleia2> the regular clock app has gotten better, I guess
<flocculant> I'm not all that worried either way - but if there are dev reasons to drop it 
<ochosi> i thought you were using the ical stuff
<pleia2> didn't use to allow you to do some of the custom things, but now that it does maybe I'll give it a chance and report back ;)
<ochosi> the ical support (with an incredibly crappy UI) and the unmaintained codebase is all orage has over the regular clock plugin
<ochosi> the clock plugin even has a format validator now ;)
<ochosi> anyway, if you find a feature (apart from ical) that is in orage but not the clock lemme know
<pleia2> actually, clock seems to do what I need now :)
<pleia2> carry on!
<ochosi> :)
<bluesabre> :)
<pleia2> we should warn people though (release notes?) in case they're in my boat
<ochosi> so i'd like to propose to drop orage from our default install
<ochosi> we can keep it in the repos as a package, but just not install it by default
<pleia2> sgtm
<ochosi> pleia2: if they have it installed and upgrade it'll be retained anyway
<pleia2> yeah
<ochosi> so not sure what to warn people about
<ochosi> apart from "Warning: The regular clock plugin can do anything you did with orage before!"
<bluesabre> lol
<pleia2> when I do a new install I automatically was using orage
<flocculant> would it not just be in the release notes - this 'package' not there anymore
<flocculant> ?
<bluesabre> (yes)
<ochosi> yup
<pleia2> ochosi: that's fine :)
<flocculant> so if people used it - they'd read the notes (of course) then install it
<ochosi> yup
<pleia2> yeah
 * flocculant wasn't at all sarcastic
<pleia2> :P
<ochosi> thing is, i'd rather not ship stuff by default that is unmaintained
<pleia2> yeah
<ochosi> (last release 4yrs ago)
<flocculant> agreed
<flocculant> and we're almost quorum 
<flocculant> sigh
<ochosi> plus, it's one of the few remaining gtk2 plugins in xfce
<bluesabre> Suppose I could address that
<brainwash> but isn't Orage a calendar application?
<ochosi> brainwash: yes, but a rather bad one
<brainwash> so, maybe there is a need for a replacement
<ochosi> partly because it uses the (unmaintained) gtkcalendar widget that really doesn't work well for calendars
<ochosi> doesn't thunderbird partly do that?
<brainwash> it could be that an offline calendar is not needed anymore
<ochosi> (doesn't use desktop calendars or mail clients in ages)
<bluesabre> We can take it to vote, and if we drop, it can be restored based on user feedback
<ochosi> yeah
<flocculant> shall we perhaps do a quick vote on this now - and then push that to ml for people to ignore?
<flocculant> bluesabre: right
<bluesabre> thunderbird's lightning plugin is not installed by default, but reasonably could be
<flocculant> I used that once upon a time
<flocculant> it was painful - though it was some time ago
<flocculant> woot
<flocculant> oops
<bluesabre> :D
<flocculant> so vote here now - or just ml it?
<ochosi> personally i'd only go for alternatives if ppl ask for it
<ochosi> maybe it's really not needed
<bluesabre> yup
<ochosi> i'd vote here
<flocculant> #voters flocculant bluesabre ochosi pleia2 
<meetingology> Current voters: bluesabre flocculant ochosi pleia2
<flocculant> #vote Remove Orage from seed
<meetingology> Please vote on: Remove Orage from seed
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<bluesabre> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from bluesabre
<flocculant> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from flocculant
<ochosi> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from ochosi
<flocculant> pleia2: ?
<pleia2> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from pleia2
<flocculant> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Remove Orage from seed
<meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<flocculant> do we go with that then - or carry it over to ml
<ochosi> i'd inform ppl on the ML
<ochosi> we'll at least see if there is a big outcry that way
<flocculant> #action flocculant to note to ml
<meetingology> ACTION: flocculant to note to ml
<flocculant> #subtopic Add Apturl to seed
<flocculant> this is something I always wondered about 
<ochosi> yeah, i'd say why not?
<flocculant> I think Unit193 had some reservations about it 
<bluesabre> Doesn't seem like it would hurt, and would generally improve user experience
<flocculant> mmh
 * flocculant check the pad
<flocculant> wasn't there - maybe it was in channel. something about being out of sync with debian ?
<flocculant> p'raps
<flocculant> bluesabre: would that sound right?
<bluesabre> It'd just be a part of our seed. I think Unit193 had some reservations, but wasn't specific.
<flocculant> mmm 
<bluesabre> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/AptURL for folks reading along
<ochosi> yeah, i read that a few mins ago
<ochosi> i felt it's unproblematic
<bluesabre> Could be used in our docs too if we wanted
<flocculant> well - I'd like to get as many things dealt with tonight as possible, but if someone in team had reservations I think we should take it to ml
<flocculant> ? thoughts
<bluesabre> Agreed
<ochosi> k
<flocculant> #action flocculant to mail list re adding Apturl to seed
<meetingology> ACTION: flocculant to mail list re adding Apturl to seed
<flocculant> #subtopic Adding GIMP to seed
<flocculant> from my pov - we took this out because space
<pleia2> yeah
<flocculant> we now have space - I'd just add it back
<ochosi> +1
<bluesabre> We shipped GIMP in Xubuntu until Wily Werewolf due to space concerns
<ochosi> i always install gimp
<pleia2> it's one of the first things I install
<bluesabre> Same
<bluesabre> Probably the same for a lot of folks
<bluesabre> It's pretty ubiquitous
<flocculant> so I would do vote as before and report to list
<ochosi> bluesabre: wow, you still remember when we removed it..? holy crap!
<bluesabre> ochosi: had to research that recently
<ochosi> oh ok :)
<flocculant> I don't remember when - I do remember us doing it 
 * bluesabre has had a simmering rage since Wily
<flocculant> #vote Add Gimp to seed
<meetingology> Please vote on: Add Gimp to seed
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<bluesabre> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from bluesabre
<flocculant> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from flocculant
<pleia2> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from pleia2
<ochosi> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from ochosi
<flocculant> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Add Gimp to seed
<meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<flocculant> #subtopic Add Libreoffice Impress to see
<flocculant> #undo
<meetingology> Removing item from minutes: SUBTOPIC
<flocculant> #subtopic Add Libreoffice Impress to seed
<flocculant> this was me 
<ochosi> hm, i mean i install it too by default now, but only because i need it at work
<ochosi> at home i really never open impress
<pleia2> I always install that too
<flocculant> given that we no longer are quite so worried about seed size - I'd like to add this in with the other Libreoffice things we do - seems silly to not have it
<ochosi> but i can imagine many ppl need it
<bluesabre> I have no complaints about including it, and folks have asked for it for years
<ochosi> flocculant: any clue how much space it adds approx?
<flocculant> ochosi: adding it to live session > https://pasteboard.co/HMojyQ9.png
<ochosi> right, that seems ok
<flocculant> I did that a while back when I added it to the pad
<flocculant> I got lost near Haytor in the fog
<flocculant> oops
<bluesabre> :D
<ochosi> oh, you did? :D
<pleia2> hehe
<ochosi> or did you get lost in all your channel tabs..?
 * flocculant spits tea at the screen - again
<flocculant> ochosi: :p
<brainwash> it seems to pull in libreoffice draw also
<knome> a wild knome suddenly appears [N/E/S/W]?
<flocculant> brainwash: yea
<ochosi> knome: oh wow, now we have to take all the votes again :'D
<knome> nah
<bluesabre> we can really get things done now
<knome> as long as you make ML threads i can just disagree with you there ;)
<brainwash> is Draw needed?
<ochosi> not sure if adding it to the seed also installs all recommends
<ochosi> but apt does that by default now
<ochosi> (in ubuntu)
<flocculant> brainwash: not sure - didn't dig that far
<pleia2> meh draw
<knome> doesn't draw bring in all the (surprise) drawing stuff like vectors?
<bluesabre> brainwash: yes, https://packages.ubuntu.com/cosmic/libreoffice-impress
<pleia2> I think because people embed draw things in impress slides
<knome> yes
<brainwash> "Design powerful and intuitive flowcharts with Draw."
<brainwash> looks useful
<knome> if everybody else ships draw with impress, wouldn't it potentially create one of those "but xubuntu is worse because even drawing stuff doesn't work!" -like sentiments
<flocculant> right
<knome> if we have space/motivation to bring in impress, bring in draw as well
<pleia2> yeah
 * flocculant makes note not to add knome to voter list - because interminable talking :D
<bluesabre> it's a package depend, impress brings it without question
<flocculant> #voters knome 
<meetingology> Current voters: bluesabre flocculant knome ochosi pleia2
<knome> ;)=
<ochosi> brainwash: it's the visio counterpart
<knome> bluesabre, unless we blacklist it :P
<bluesabre> does that work for depends?
<knome> but yes, i wasn't advocating for that anyway
<knome> i have no idea, let's not figure out?
<bluesabre> fine
 * bluesabre breaks something else
<knome> woohoo!
<flocculant> good chap
<brainwash> so, this would result in having the full libreoffice suite installed I'd think
<knome> no base?
<knome> the database thing
<brainwash> ohh
<bluesabre> yeah, don't need that
<bluesabre> :D
<knome> or is it pulled by something
<flocculant> yea - it doesn't add the database - just whats in the screenie
<ochosi> let's vote?
 * bluesabre votes to vote
<knome> sure.
<flocculant> #vote Add LibreOffice Impress to seed
<meetingology> Please vote on: Add LibreOffice Impress to seed
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<flocculant> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from flocculant
<knome> +0
<meetingology> +0 received from knome
<pleia2> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from pleia2
<bluesabre> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from bluesabre
<ochosi> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from ochosi
<ochosi> it's so great to have knome around for the voting
<knome> i know...
<ochosi> :D
<bluesabre> even when he abstains :|
<bluesabre> (meant to be :P)
<flocculant> better the devil you know
<flocculant> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Add LibreOffice Impress to seed
<meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:1
<meetingology> Motion carried
<ochosi> uhm, gnome software, oh noes
<flocculant> #subtopic Status update on GNOME Software / alternatives? 
<flocculant> so
<bluesabre> so
<flocculant> I hate this still 
<ochosi> i think gnome software isn't great, but the alternatives also aren't
<flocculant> and still refuse to use it :p
<ochosi> synaptic is still unmaintained
<flocculant> synaptic works fine - it's just not pretty - and I don't buy stuff 
<ochosi> and unchanged
<knome> but it's still around
<flocculant> better maintained than before I believe
<ochosi> knome: orage is also still around :p
<knome> but synaptic works, right? :P
<bluesabre> it does
<flocculant> yep
<bluesabre> and sometimes gnome-software does not
<brainwash> gnome-software has snaps and firmware updates
<brainwash> that's pretty nice
<bluesabre> it does have that going for it
<flocculant> I did look for the mate one - but I think that's now a snap 
<knome> i really really don't like gnome-software (that's to say, i don't hate it either, but i don't like it), but i don't use even synaptic any more, so...
<brainwash> bluesabre: and it uses appdata, another plus
<bluesabre> had to patch for that recently, after folks removed exo and killed their xfce
<flocculant> I don't think we're going to get very far with this discussion
<flocculant> again
<bluesabre> indeed
<brainwash> personally, my main concern with gnome-software is that it keeps running in the background after "closing" it
<ochosi> yeah
<bluesabre> it's one of those things... there's no great options, so the status quo just persists
<ochosi> that's one thing i also dislike
<flocculant> brainwash: right
<brainwash> which is a bit over 100MB
<knome> when i last used it, it was sluggish when ran too :/
<ochosi> i remember before gnome software we were unhappy with ubuntu-software
<flocculant> one I didn't like was it leaving things behind - but I think that's been SRU'd now
<ochosi> so "yay"
<knome> ochosi, indeed
<ochosi> i'm just not motivated enough, but if i had the time and motivation i'd probably just do a proper UI for synaptic and use that instead
<flocculant> ochosi: ack - but moving because we had to just added different issues
<ochosi> (how hard can that be)
<flocculant> quite
<flocculant> I couldn't do it :D
<ochosi> i think two afternoons of work for two people
<bluesabre> uh oh
<brainwash> but that's only the UI
<flocculant> or 2 years if one was me
<brainwash> features will be still missing
<ochosi> i know
<flocculant> I think the issue is the paid stuff and snaps
<ochosi> doesn't it also handle flatpak?
<ochosi> or is that only outside ubuntu
<bluesabre> So, it's feeling like we keep gnome-software for now for lack of anything "better"
<brainwash> don't forget that the Gnome project will keep improving -software
<bluesabre> flatpak can be enabled easily
<bluesabre> the various backends are plugins
<ochosi> anyway, i think we can leave the discussion there. as bluesabre and others mentioned, we won't get further
<flocculant> brainwash: 'improving'
<flocculant> ok - works for me ochosi 
<brainwash> can't make it any worse :>
<bluesabre> brainwash: shhhh
<flocculant> #subtopic Replacing Light Locker with Xfce Screensaver
<flocculant> I'm sure someone has loads to say about this :p
<bluesabre> hi
<flocculant> ohai
<brainwash> it's good to have screensavers back
<bluesabre> I've been working on a replacement for light-locker/gnome-screensaver/mate-screensaver/xscreensaver
<bluesabre> And I'm happy to say my laptop turns on after I close and open the lid! :D
<flocculant> that's good :)
<ochosi> lol
<ochosi> yeah, my only point is that if you think it's stable enough i'd include it
<flocculant> what was the issue on the xfce list re that and /usr/lib (or somesuch)
<ochosi> so that's all that depends on from my pov
<bluesabre> A bit of info https://docs.xfce.org/apps/screensaver/start and https://bluesabre.org/2018/10/15/xfce-screensaver-0-1-0-released/
<flocculant> I'm waiting to see the results of the FIXED to the 2 bugs I found ochosi :)
<ochosi> :)
<bluesabre> ochosi: I think it's pretty stable as of the release I pushed out this morning, but I'd like to get it to the PPA for folks to kick the tires a bit
<flocculant> so would I 
<flocculant> I assume that I could git it - but I don't want to unless I need too - I'd like a pretty relaxed 6 months this time :p
<bluesabre> flocculant: link to the /usr/lib thing (or was this some time ago and the thing I fixed for OpenBSD)?
<bluesabre> flocculant: and yeah, will have that packaged sometime this weekend
<flocculant> aah yea OpenBSD
<flocculant> that's the one
<bluesabre> cool
<bluesabre> Fixed
<flocculant> and ok cool
<bluesabre> And not us ;)
<flocculant> \0/
<flocculant> :)
<flocculant> anyway - as others are quiet I assume no problems so lets just vote 
<flocculant> #vote Replace LightLocker with Xfce Screensaver
<meetingology> Please vote on: Replace LightLocker with Xfce Screensaver
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<flocculant> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from flocculant
<pleia2> +0
<meetingology> +0 received from pleia2
<knome> +1 as long as it is stable at release time
<meetingology> +1 as long as it is stable at release time received from knome
<bluesabre> Not really anything to vote on yet, it was more of an informational thing :D
<pleia2> :)
<flocculant> I hatez you
<bluesabre> +1 pending folks testing
<meetingology> +1 pending folks testing received from bluesabre
<ochosi> +1 as long as it is stable at release time
<meetingology> +1 as long as it is stable at release time received from ochosi
<flocculant> think we should still go for it anyway - regardless
<flocculant> #enddvote
<bluesabre> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Replace LightLocker with Xfce Screensaver
<meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:1
<meetingology> Motion carried
<flocculant> #undo
<meetingology> Removing item from minutes: INFO
<knome> umm
<knome> no?
<flocculant> that was close 
<bluesabre> interesting
<knome> you can't remove false commands
<knome> and votes either, i think
<flocculant> never mind
<flocculant> couldn't find it in the manual knome :p
<bluesabre> :)
<knome> heh
<flocculant> #subtopic Applying Xubuntu defaults to commonly used apps (Plank, others) 
<flocculant> ok
<flocculant> so as much as I like the idea
 * knome grins at the thought of an automatic knome
<flocculant> I'm dead against it
<bluesabre> oh?
<flocculant> you give me a list - and I'll give you another
<knome> if we have people to *maintain* those defaults...
<flocculant> we will never please people here
<flocculant> right - well one of mine uses Qt
<bluesabre> that's true
<knome> the idea is to make them integrate well with xubuntu, right?
<bluesabre> yeah
<knome> and explicitly for the appearance-related things, to look like xubuntu
<bluesabre> Yep
<flocculant> right 
<flocculant> so - Qt doesn't
<bluesabre> Like the Xubuntu Light theme in gedit, GTK theme for Plank, etc
<knome> so if we change some stuff in default settings/apps, then those changes should be migrated to the "commonly used app" defaults too
<flocculant> I do like the idea 
<knome> i don't mind shipping an "incomplete" list of default settings with xubuntu
<flocculant> but I don't see how we can do this - without getting a load of whataboutery
<knome> what i mind more is shipping stuff that isn't really "xubuntu" with xubuntu
<knome> if people complain about missing support for $my_favorite_thing, we can invite them to collaborate
<bluesabre> but I do see the concern about it balooning
<knome> sure, but then again all defaults we ship for non-default apps is just extra
<flocculant> knome: I know the pov - but fix it if you want - I just don't like that 
<knome> like likerally, it's extra service we offer
<flocculant> or don't
<flocculant> that's the question isn't it
<bluesabre> yeah, basically the reason for the agenda item
<knome> the only potentially negative side is if these defaults somehow mess up user customizations
<knome> so we set a default for X to be Y and the user wants X to be Z... but can't because a default is shipped
<ochosi> we already do ship some of this stuff
<ochosi> like the compton config
<knome> i know that's not how defaults work - but it's not really "defaults" as much as "globals" for some things
<ochosi> it's mostly a question of whether we want to extend that
<knome> if we have creators, why not?
<ochosi> plus, plank already is supported by greybird, it's just not configured
<flocculant> see 
<knome> i wouldn't put the limited work hour artwork team to work on stuff like this
<flocculant> I'd like Cantata to look ok in Xubuntu
<bluesabre> flocculant: Is Cantata a qt app?
<flocculant> yea
<flocculant> it looks ok'ish with the Qt5 thingy
<bluesabre> I was planning to have a one-click "make qt apps look less bad" in the xubuntu tweak item
<flocculant> but it looks out of place - but I put up with it - because I'm me and not xubuntu-art :)
<flocculant> right
<knome> bluesabre, any reason why that click can't be automated?
<bluesabre> knome: basically because the qt5-styles-plugin brings in a lot of qt things that probably shouldn't be in iso
<knome> ah yes that
<knome> anyway, let's stick to subject for now...
<bluesabre> yeah
<flocculant> point
<knome> so to repeat myself and to clarify: if we have the creators (and maintainers) for these additional default stuffs, i'd happily support including them
<flocculant> given that this was Spass's thing - and he's of late been trying to be involved - I'd like to move this to the ml - even if he can't vote
<bluesabre> certainly
<knome> even to the point that i could do some "reviews" on the stuff (given time etc. permits) and help them become more "xubuntu"
<flocculant> knome: ack
<flocculant> #action flocculant to mail list re applying Xubuntu defaults to various apps
<meetingology> ACTION: flocculant to mail list re applying Xubuntu defaults to various apps
<bluesabre> cool
<ochosi> guys, i gotta go in 3mins
<ochosi> so maybe just a brief comment on the last agenda item
<flocculant> ochosi: okey doke - you had comments on the last I think
<flocculant> #subtopic Developing "Xubuntu Tweak"
<flocculant> ochosi: so if you want to warble now on your pov
<ochosi> this may be a pet project of "someone" (not looking at you, bluesabre), but i really think we have more important tasks - even if it would be nice to get something like that *i guess*
<ochosi> e.g. getting the panel prefs dialogs HIG aligned ;)
<knome> my gut reaction is "oh god don't call it anything *tweak*"
<ochosi> so in general i think we're really closing in on xfce 4.14 and i'd rather focus on that then develop new downstream stuff
<bluesabre> I suggest it as a tool to easily apply current defaults (say you've upgraded all the same way from dapper and make everything feel cosmic)
<bluesabre> Or applying easy fixes, "MY QT5 looks bad"
<ochosi> yeah right, sounds like a dirty python app :p
<bluesabre> Yes
<pleia2> I have to step away for family things
<knome> pleia2, o/
<ochosi> just sayin, it may also end up being time consuming with bugfixes and people adding stuff to the wishlist
<knome> and ochosi p/
<bluesabre> It wouldn't be a pretty thing, it'd be scripty
<bluesabre> yeah
<ochosi> and it's not a bad idea, just not a very high-prio one
<ochosi> from my pov
<bluesabre> Right, that's fair
<ochosi> but who am i to tell anyone else what to do with their free time ;)
<bluesabre> Might be a future release thing after 4.14
<bluesabre> But wanted to get the idea out there
<knome> ...and it doesn't get my support either if its name has the word "tweak" in it :P
<ochosi> lol
<ochosi> yeah, tbh i'd personally rather do something like an xfce profile manager
<knome> rather "the xubuntu winkywonky tool"
<bluesabre> "Xubuntu Repair & Adjustment Tool Box"
<bluesabre> lol
<ochosi> that would be an upstream thing that combines display profiles, panel profiles, and practically all other settings
<knome> +1 for the profile manager, the name sounds 100Ã more professional as well
<ochosi> anyway, those were my 2cents
<bluesabre> Yeah, it could do everything that didn't need package-y things
<bluesabre> thanks ochosi 
<ochosi> https://git.xfce.org/archive/xfce4-profile-manager/
<ochosi> :>
<bluesabre> but yeah, just an idea for now
<ochosi> (yeah, obviously not a new idea)
<knome> could we do a quick fix for this with some blog articles etc?
<bluesabre> ochosi: clearly an old idea
<bluesabre> 2011
<bluesabre> :O
<knome> well not fix, more like a workaround
<ochosi> yeah, i worked on it with stephan at some point
<ochosi> knome: yeah, FAQs help
<ochosi> we can even add the one-liner that "fixes your QT5 apps"
<ochosi> to the FAQ
<bluesabre> I'd be happy with FAQs
<ochosi> so it becomes a copy-paste job
<bluesabre> with apturl it becomes a click
<bluesabre> :D
<ochosi> lol
<ochosi> indeed
<knome> either or, we can do both
<ochosi> alrighty, night everyone!
<knome> nighty ochosi 
<bluesabre> nighty ochosi, thanks for dropping by!
<flocculant> ochosi: night - thanks :)
<flocculant> ok - so are we going to get anywhere with this tonight - because it's now 23:47 
<flocculant> :p
<knome> you're wrong
<knome> it's 01:47
<bluesabre> flocculant: I have nothing more to say about the tweak app, it's not going to be a disco thing, too much other stuff to do :)
<flocculant> furriner
<flocculant> bluesabre: ok
<flocculant> lets table that then
<knome> i think the "only" action item is that we should write blog stuff on things that the tool would take care of -- so people can get on with it already
<bluesabre> that seems fair
<bluesabre> #nick xubuntu-team
<knome> the drafting part likely falls for bluesabre since he has an idea of the things that should be easier
<flocculant> #action knome to look at making some inroads in to helping users with tweaks - via whatever media he chooses
<meetingology> ACTION: knome to look at making some inroads in to helping users with tweaks - via whatever media he chooses
<knome> but i can definitely help on the proofreading, figuring out how to publish etc.
<flocculant> #topic AOB
<flocculant> anyone got anything else ?
<bluesabre> nothing from me
<flocculant> I guess at some point we should talk about the pad - but I'm losing the will to live tonight
<knome> not that it comes as a surprise, but i might continue keeping on a bit quieter this cycle as well...
<flocculant> yup 
<knome> you can always reach me via email or pinging at IRC though
<knome> and i will very likely reply within 24 hours
<knome> -- and please, don't hesitate to ask if you have anything
<flocculant> and I'm trying to peg back - though I'm always reachable and will do the bare minimum where needed, really would prefer to be looking more Xfce now
<flocculant> #topic Schedule next meeting
<flocculant> da duh duh ...
<flocculant> it is still 
<knome> it's so much easier to help with direct requests than try to figure out something sensible to start working yourself...
<flocculant> slickymaster's 
<flocculant> go to run the next one 
<knome> just skip him
<flocculant> #endmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting ended Fri Nov 23 23:51:51 2018 UTC.  
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2018/xubuntu-devel.2018-11-23-22.01.moin.txt
<knome> :P
<bluesabre> lol
<bluesabre> thanks flocculant, that was a productive meeting!
<flocculant> phew - night all - and thanks - we actually got some results \0/
<knome> thanks flocculant, bluesabre, ochosi, brainwash 
<flocculant> bluesabre: yea
<knome> oh and pleia2 ofc
<knome> free pings for everyone
<knome> discord loses the fun when you can just go @everyone on a channel :(
<flocculant> cya soon
<bluesabre> :)
<bluesabre> knome: the spam bots do it all the time
<knome> hah
#xubuntu-devel 2018-11-24
<brainwash> ochosi: here's a won't fix bug 1768350
<ubottu> bug 1768350 in greybird-gtk-theme (Ubuntu) "In file properties "Digests" tab (thunar-gtkhash) theme is not applied to "HMAC key" button" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1768350
<flocculant> logs for meeting are up now
<flocculant> also done a bunch of actions I'd mistakenly given myself :)
<ochosi> brainwash: thanks, marked as fixed actually
<brainwash> ochosi: I thought that won't fix would be more fitting, because it's something that will remain broken in the css for gtk2
#xubuntu-devel 2018-11-25
<knome> flocculant, where did the gimp voting ML thread go?
<flocculant> knome: I assumed we'd agreed so it's on the one that's just a list
<knome> "we" ?:P
<knome> actually it's the item i have most reservations about.. not that i think my opinion/vote will change the direction, but i guess it would be good to have a thread for that for transparency purposes
<knome> (and i'm not saying this only because i have a differing opinion - as you know)
<knome> flocculant, bluesabre, Unit193: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/xubuntu-d-roadmap created for you and dev.xubuntu.org pointing there...
<knome> i'll move the sub-blueprints next
<knome> i mean create d ones and copy over the old open work items from c ones
<knome> ...and done
<knome> and sent an email on the ML
<ochosi> i thought in yesterday's meeting we had some votes and some decisions we felt we didnt have enouhh attendees for, so we took those to the ml
<ochosi> gimp was a decision we felt we could take
<ochosi> at least that was my understanding
<knome> well, i appeared right after that one
<knome> and again, i don't feel like my disagreeing opinion, no matter how strong it was, is going to change the outcome
<knome> i'm mostly saying we should probably create a thread for that too for transparency purposes
<knome> bbl
<bluesabre> flocculant: I put together a blog post for the screensaver, and added the latest release to the qa experimental PPA, https://bluesabre.org/2018/11/25/xfce-screensaver-0-1-3-released/
<ochosi> knome: the information that those things were voted on went to the ML though
<ochosi> potentially one could add a rationale, but i expect we do that in the release notes
<brainwash> bluesabre: will a "Settings" button show up in case a "theme" can be configured?
<flocculant> knome: then create one ...
<flocculant> bluesabre: checking it out 
<flocculant> knome: as long as you say the decision has been made
<flocculant> bluesabre: cool - I see the fixes :)
<flocculant> wandering off again
<bluesabre> brainwash: in a later version, probably. It's one of my goals :)
<brainwash> bluesabre: okay
#xubuntu-devel 2019-11-18
<knome> bluesabre, thanks for following through with the cdimage style :)
<knome> even if i say so myself, the release pages are much better now
<franksmcb> bluesabre thanks for the kind words. I'm always happy to help the y'all out when possible.
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- Reminder: Next meeting chair is ochosi
#xubuntu-devel 2019-11-20
<bluesabre> krytarik: yep, just not had a chance to do anything with it yet :)
<ondondil> Is there a chance that Greybird will be added to gtk-common-themes snap before focal release?
#xubuntu-devel 2019-11-21
<bluesabre> ondondil: hopefully, that was one of the things I wanted to make happen this cycle
