#ubuntu-doc 2005-05-30
<mdke> carthik, but I hope the markup won't stop you from participating :)
<mdke> carthik, media wiki was rejected because they are _very_ tight on security in the ubuntu servers and they don't like using php
<carthik> mdke, cool. I understand the reasons, but non-camelcase links are friendlier and more meaningful, semantically
<mdke> i presume there is a way to avoid the CamelCase turning into links
<mdke> not sure what tho
<mdke> oooh
<mdke> just discovered a toolchain for moin -> pot
<carthik> mdke, the printer section hopefully looks better now: https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/FrequentlyAskedQuestions
<carthik> please fix the automatic camel case linking, if you can.
<mdke> carthik, cool
<carthik> and thanks
<carthik> later!
<mdke> carthik, if i find out i will fix
<jsgotangco> robitaille, hi
<robitaille> hello
<froud> morning all
<jsgotangco> hey froud
<jsgotangco> how was your telecon?
<froud> jsgotangco: it was good
<froud> I think mdke or hendrik will post a summary
<jsgotangco> sorry i wasnt able to join i think i received mdke's sms around 11pm
<froud> that's OK
<jsgotangco> i see you've started cleaning up trunk :)
<froud> I think we decided on a horse-shoe approach to the docbook wiki thing
<froud> cleaning
<froud> no I did some adding
<jsgotangco> horse shoe approach?
<froud> yeah the idea was a round trip
<froud> but that is not easy with moin
<froud> so if I recall correctly
<froud> we want first to id some docs that are stable
<froud> and port them to docbook
<froud> once in svn the docs on wiki will no longer be editable
<froud> from the main wiki
<froud> we wil then have a new wiki, on which we will be able to edit the docs
<jsgotangco> ahhh so this is all about farming good wiki entries to be published into our main docbook svn
<froud> yes
<froud> but the process is not seamless and hendrik has to look at several issues
<jsgotangco> i shall await their emails then
<froud> basically they want a way to exchange formats between moin and docbook
<froud> anyway, I exaplined that I am focused on the stuff in svn
<froud> if they find a solution and check it in to svn then I will collaborate
<jsgotangco> i think mdke would love to do this wiki stuff
<froud> sure, if they find a solution that Canonical and the users can use, then they should go for it
<froud> For me, I am just focused on svn and docbook
<jsgotangco> well henrik is there so i guess they're willing to spend on that
<froud> jsgotangco: yeah, I think after the conversation hendrik now has a bigger and clearer picture of the problem in general. So hopefully he can find a solution.
<mdke> morning guys
<mdke> jsgotangco, :D
<jsgotangco> mdke, hi sorry i wasn't able to reply
<jsgotangco> is that your mobile phone?
<mdke> no problemo
<jsgotangco> it was already past 11pm
<mdke> jsgotangco, yes, you didn't get my reply last night?
<mdke> i got your text, and replied to it
<jsgotangco> nope
<mdke> ok weird
<jsgotangco> how did it go anyway
<mdke> but you got my first text?
<jsgotangco> i did
<jsgotangco> im using a gsm phone so i should have received it
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> it went ok
<mdke> i will write something up
<jsgotangco> that would be nice
<jsgotangco> so only 3 of you got to talk?
<mdke> yes
<mdke> we tried ringing you in the end but it didn't ring for some reason
<mdke> anyway it went ok
<jsgotangco> my phone didn't ring at all
<jsgotangco> (my mobile at least)
<jsgotangco> it should have reflected as missed call
<mdke> hmmm
* jsgotangco grumbles at 3rd world gsm infrastructure
* jsgotangco should move somewhere developed soon
<mdke> ;)
<mdke> don't you like it there?
<mdke> jiyuu0, ping?
<jsgotangco> mdke, if given the opportunity, i would move :)
<mdke> where to?
<jsgotangco> probably canada or somewhere in europe
<mdke> i've heard canada is amazing
<jsgotangco> they have an aging population thus, immigration is widely embraced
<jsgotangco> either aging or not increasing
<jsgotangco> heh
<mdke> yeah i heard immigrating there was easy
<mdke> some relatives of mine went out there not too long ago
<mdke> from switzerland
<jsgotangco> hmm
<jsgotangco> switzerland is a bad place?
<jsgotangco> (probably expensive)
<mdke> its not too bad
<mdke> they moved for work reasons
<mdke> i wouldn't live in switzerland tho
<mdke> the people are quite closed minded
<jsgotangco> ahhh
<jsgotangco> you mean conservative?
<mdke> yes
<mdke> but its a great place for skiing ;)
<jsgotangco> and chocolates
<jsgotangco> heh
* mdke nods
<jsgotangco> i decided to move elsewhere because in my family, im the only one left here
<mdke> oh right
<mdke> do you have children?
<jsgotangco> my parents are in the us, while one brother is in auckland
<jsgotangco> i have a daughter
<jsgotangco> (3 yrs 4 mos)
<mdke> ok
<mdke> so moving would be doable
<jsgotangco> its more of an economy thing
<jsgotangco> if the economy here is good i wouldn't move
<jsgotangco> just like other people
<jsgotangco> but people here move elsewhere  for economic reasons almost always
<mdke> yeep
<jsgotangco> in the news here, they've been debating a $3 wage hike for months
<mdke> so if that comes through, you might stay?
<jsgotangco> hah
<jsgotangco> what can $3 do?
<mdke> per hour?
<jsgotangco> per day
<jsgotangco> heh
<mdke> oh right
<mdke> sorry
<jsgotangco> $1 USD = P54 Philippine Pesos
<jsgotangco> Unleaded Gas = P29/liter
<jsgotangco> heh
<mdke> wow
<jsgotangco> i think the minimum wage here is P250/day
<mdke> you're married aren't you?
<jsgotangco> yeah
<mdke> would it be a problem for your wife to move?
<jsgotangco> nahh she wants to move to and finish her graduate studies somewhere
<mdke> ok cool
<jsgotangco> she's actually just a few more units short of her PhD in economics
<mdke> wow
<jsgotangco> yeah pretty smart for 29
<jsgotangco> hehe
<jsgotangco> family way just got in the way
<mdke> Be BaCk LaTeR
<jsgotangco> me too im going
<jsgotangco> later
<mdke> froud, nice one on incoming/
<mdke> thanks a lot for those templates
<froud> hope they help
<mdke> i'm sure they will
<froud> anyone know if devel have made available the breezy repos?
<mdke> not sure
<mdke> mdz is around tho
<froud> jdub: is the breezy main, restricted and universe available?
<mdke> jiyuu0, ping?
<jiyuu0> mdke, i'm heading out now... catch u later :)
<mdke> ok
<mdke> i'll leave you a msg
<jiyuu0> thanks :)
#ubuntu-doc 2005-05-31
<jsgotangco> hello
<Burgundavia> salut
<jsgotangco> wow templates!
<jsgotangco> (at last)
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, do you know how to apply a diff patch?
<Burgundavia> hmm, no idea
<Burgundavia> someone else will pick it up
<jsgotangco> well i want to pick it up
<jsgotangco> (to learn)
<Burgundavia> ask froud
<Burgundavia> or jeffsch
<Burgundavia> I have mostly been doing UI stuff recently
<jsgotangco> ahh svn merge
<_froud_> jsgotangco: why do you send a diff, why not just do the commit yourself?
<jsgotangco> i did not send the diff
<jsgotangco> :P
<froud> ooops
<jsgotangco> jjesse did
<jsgotangco> i dont know how to patch
<jsgotangco> thats why i havent committed it
<froud> ok, you want to try it
<jsgotangco> i do
<jsgotangco> is that merge in esvn?
<froud> no no
<froud> lemme check the patch first gimme a sec
<froud> ok save the diff file in to the kwick guide folder
<jsgotangco> ok
<froud> then do patch -p0 kquickguide.xml kquickguide.diff
<jsgotangco> well ok thats only a patch command i was thinking esvn
<froud> :-) esvn does not have atool for that
<froud> it's good not that good
<jsgotangco> ahh so patch is still just plain patch
<froud> yeah
<froud> I can speak to the devels at eSvn and ask them for a util to apply a patch
<jsgotangco> how will you know if the patch is no good?
<froud> you should check it
<froud> then apply it
<froud> if you are happy you just apply it. otherwise apply it and then fix 
<froud> remember you can always see the diff since you can do a quick diff
<jsgotangco> o right
<froud> most time I commit the patch so that it is recorded
<froud> then I fix and submit another patch
<froud> unless of course the patch has too many mistakes
<jsgotangco> well the patch in this case is pretty trivial i dunno why he sent it hehe but then its a contribution
<froud> but if they are small ones and the patch as a whole is good, then it does not hurt
<froud> every patch is important
<froud> no matter how small :-)
<jsgotangco> ill take your word for it
<froud> sure, as you say, "its a contribution"
<froud> I like to call them gifts
<froud> nice one
<froud> now send a message to the list saying you have applied it, not everyone is on the commit list
<jsgotangco> oh right
<jsgotangco> thank you o mentor
<froud> btw. kwickguide is looking good dude thanks for that
<jsgotangco> oh i could have been done with it if not for this oracle project
<froud> that's the way it goes. How's is the oracle ting doing
* froud does pretty print to make xml neat
<jsgotangco> well im trying out a new methodology called Rapid Start for E-Business Suite
<froud> on 10g
<jsgotangco> yeah
<froud> wow'
<froud> I saw guys form oracle install and fine tune 10g in 18 minutes
<jsgotangco> but im thinking of convincing the developers to testing it in Ubuntu instead of forcing clients to use old Red Hat 9
<froud> can they install on a deb based system?
<jsgotangco> well i can do that as a project
<jsgotangco> (you never know)
<jsgotangco> but then
<jsgotangco> oracle's a big company
<jsgotangco> (but its a good opportunity perhaps)
<froud> sure
<froud> So now you need screencaptures for quickguide, right?
<jsgotangco> yeah ill cover it probably this weekend
<froud> if you want help on it, send a message to the list
<froud> do some adertising
<jsgotangco> what's incoming for?
<froud> oh, that's for the stuff that will come from wiki into svn
<froud> before we know where or what to do with it
<froud> we will put it there
<jsgotangco> i saw some of your committed stuff had biblio tags already
<froud> which the install guide?
<jsgotangco> i think so
<froud> yeah it also have glossterms
<jsgotangco> i think i need to make a progress chart for some docs i adopted
<jsgotangco> my day is getting messier lately
<froud> but to use it you need to install computerdictionary-xx.deb
* jsgotangco curses broken imendio planner
<jsgotangco> does Ubuntu have a marketing team?
<jsgotangco> (community based)
<froud> not really community based
<jsgotangco> well yeah, silbs for example
<froud> some people at Canonical like mako do this stuff
<jsgotangco> hmm
<froud> yes and jane
<jsgotangco> because i was looking at the OOo site
<jsgotangco> their marketing team (community and sun) is huge
<froud> yes
<jsgotangco> (its because of this todo thing i have regarding flyer for ubuntu conferences)
<jsgotangco> (we're not supposed to do flyers)
<froud> oh really, why?
<jsgotangco> well it means we still have to think of bling bling stuff to write about at the same time create the flyer
<jsgotangco> (not that its hard to do)
<jsgotangco> (but then OOo marketing stuff was createdby community so..)
<froud> Well there should be no real reason why people in the community can't do marketing stuff
<jsgotangco> yeah maybe i should propose one
<froud> sometimes people forget that this is not about mark or canonical, its about what the community wants to do
<froud> if the above mentioned want to succeed then they must embrace what they community wants
<froud> so far they are doing a fair job
<froud> not easy, when you consider the millions of ideas and thoughts
<jsgotangco> true and we're just a drop in the OS space at the moment
<jsgotangco> (collabnet sure does look sweet on the ooo site though)
<froud> but if you have ideas for marketing I am certain silbs will be interested
<froud> I have an ubuntu poster that I can contribute
<jsgotangco> can i take a look?
<froud> Big file
<froud> I will commit an inkscape version sometime today
<froud> I need to port it from freehand
<jsgotangco> ahhh ok
<froud> Ok I also have the basics for a Kubuntu poster
<jsgotangco> you did it yourself?
<froud> Yes
<froud> The posters are sized 60cm X 90 cm
<jsgotangco> im doing something in inkscape in A4 but its quite empty yet
<froud> create a folder in trunk called artwork
<froud> lets commit our ideas to there
<jsgotangco> good idea
<froud> you know how to create directories and do recursive add right?
<jsgotangco> yeah
<froud> OK, the problem with inkscape is that it does not do a good export
<jsgotangco> hmm
<jsgotangco> wait
<jsgotangco> you're telling me that we're exporting inkscape to xml
<jsgotangco> not native inkscape
<froud> so the method I use is to export the image at 600 dpi
<Burgundavia> svg is already xml
<froud> non o
<Burgundavia> once you have the svg, you can do what you wish with it
<froud> OK from svg you need a format for printing
<jsgotangco> i know its xml i though we're exporting it to another format
<froud> so i export to png at 600 dpi
<froud> then open gimp
<froud> flatten the image
<froud> save
<froud> many printers can't use png files
<froud> so I use gimp to export to tiff and jpeg
<froud> give the printer all three file
<froud> I recently printed some posters on a 1200 dpi plaotter
<froud> plotter
<froud> the file was at 1200 dpi
<jsgotangco> you do have some neat toys
<froud> the images are great, cystal sharp
<froud> its my job to have these toys
<froud> do what you love, love what you do
<jsgotangco> (ok i forgot you are in the documentation business)
<froud> all the images on my web site are made in inkscape
<froud> I was speaking lats wee with the editor of tectronic the FOSS magazine here in CO.ZA
<froud> They are really looking to use a FOSS tool chain to do their magazine
<froud> but the tool chain is not up to it just yet
<froud> so they have to use closed source apps
<froud> doing postscript on Linux is a bitch
<froud> its then that you wish you were using Mac OSX
<froud> if you go to print, make sure that your printer can open large files
<froud> at 1200 dpi a poster 90 x 60 cm was 3GB
<jsgotangco> jeez
<froud> yeah, obviously it is smaller with 600dpi
<froud> but you need to watch out
<froud> lower dpi results in blurred edges on curves
<froud> 600 should be enough
* jsgotangco creates proof of concepts first
<froud> if not up to 1200
<jsgotangco> but is it possible to change that in inkscape in the middle of work?
<froud> yes, it scales well b'cause it is svg
<froud> you can start work at A4 and scale later
<jsgotangco> yes that would be nice
<froud> remember toleave some bleed on the page
<froud> for example
<froud> ifyou what full color on the page, no white border
<froud> make the background larger than the page size
<froud> they will print in oversized A3 paper and cut it to A3
<froud> same with other sizes
<jsgotangco> yes yes, i've seen some raw prints and they overlapt
<froud> yes, so long as you have bleed you will have a full color background
<froud> of course if you print on a plotter you will have no choice but to accept a white border about 3cm all around
<froud> but that's ok the poster still looks coll
<froud> cool
<jsgotangco> plotters rely on cmyk as well right?
<froud> yes, but png is rgb
<froud> I used rbg, the result was not exactly the color tones I wanted, but it was close enough
<froud> btw for the most part the svg is easily imported to freehand and illustrator
<froud> on complex images some lines come in all borked
<froud> but simple lines work well
<froud> the problem seemed to be with gradients
<froud> if you use gradients make sure you also get a high dpi, otherwise some printers give you big steps
<jsgotangco> i dont get it what did gradients have to do with complex lines
<jsgotangco> the gradients are supposed to be printed on large presses
<jsgotangco> not simple plotters
<froud> Complex lines seem to go borked, but simple lines like a circle with gradient also have problems
<froud> that is why I just exported a png at 1200 dpi and then used gimp
<froud> at first I was going to import the svg into freehand
<froud> that is when I found the problem
<froud> I guess the standards are not yet there to support seemless interchange
<froud> but once svg is stable, it will make an excellent interchange format
<froud> hey I must go. gotto take daughters to school and then I have a meeting, new customer :-)
<jsgotangco> wow
<jsgotangco> ok
<froud> will commit my posters later
<jsgotangco> the money pot just keeps on pouring
<froud> hard work though
<jsgotangco> its always like that
<jsgotangco> nothing ventured nothing gained
<jsgotangco> heh
<froud> gotto keep the work rolling for all these writers I am now employing
<froud> oh well, gotto make jobs for the unemployed
* jsgotangco waves at froud 
<froud> bye
<jsgotangco> gyahhh CC meeting is 6am
<jsgotangco> heh
<jsgotangco> oh well
<Burgundavia> when is the CC meeting?
<jsgotangco> 22:00 UTC May 24
<Burgundavia> 3pm for me
<jsgotangco> curse you heh
<Seveas> midnight for me :S
<Burgundavia> can't please everyone
<mdke> morning all
<Burgundavia> salut
<mdke> hi jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> hey
<jsgotangco> mdke, hows it going?
<mdke> fine thanks, you?
<jsgotangco> not bad
<jsgotangco> (its raining outside though and i want to go home)
<mdke> hmm
<jsgotangco> whats on your mind
<mdke> not much at all
<mdke> i just got up
<mdke> i'm thinking about all the work i have to do today :(
<jsgotangco> what kind of work, student work or work work to make a living
<mdke> student work
<jsgotangco> (student work isn't so bad)
<mdke> perhaps "work" was the wrong word ;)
<jsgotangco> id probably go back to school too if i had time
<mdke> i'm sick of it now
<jsgotangco> (if i was taking law id be sick of it too)
<mdke> *laughs*
<jsgotangco> i almost took up law 6 years ago
<mdke> didnt like it?
<jsgotangco> my first job was in a law firm
<jsgotangco> it did liason work
<jsgotangco> pretty sleazy stuff, we were in real estate
<mdke> *grins*
<mdke> sleazy lawyers ;)
<jsgotangco> yeah we had to bring lots of gifts to court people during christmas
<jsgotangco> it would be nice if GNOME Clock would say what timezone it is using (such as printing out UTC)
<Burgundavia> yes
<mdke> yeah
<jsgotangco> i look at my clock and it says 10:09 but outside i see stars
<jsgotangco> heh
<mdke> system -> admin -> time and date ;)
<jsgotangco> no i meant having UTC explicitly indicated in the display
<jsgotangco> heh
<jsgotangco> ok im  out see you in the CC meetikng later
<jsgotangco> bye
<mdke> bye
<Kinnison> Morning
<Burgundavia> morning Kinnison 
<Kinnison> burgey.
<jiyuu0> Fresh from oven...
<jiyuu0> Unofficial Ubuntu 5.04 Add-On CD
<jiyuu0> Applications Snapshots: 23rd May 2005
<jiyuu0> http://ubuntuguide.org/add-on-cd/
<jiyuu0> Packages List: http://ubuntuguide.org/add-on-cd/add-on-cd-2005-05-23
<mdke> jiyuu0, ooh what is ubuntu.xpm.gz like?
<mdke> you got a url/screenshot ?
<mdke> found it
<jjesse> afternoon
<froud> hey dudes
<froud> anyone had problems configuring wlan
<mdke> froud, yes sometimes
<froud> I have card initialized
<froud> so i c it with iwconfig
<froud> when I down eth0 which is LAN
<froud> I can ping my gateway
<froud> via eth1 (which is wlan)
<mdke> ok
<froud> but I cannot seem to get http working
<mdke> are you getting the ip via dhcp?
<froud> in /etc/network/interfaces
<froud> no static
<mdke> have you set up the nameservers?
<mdke> can you ping 216.239.57.99 ?
<froud> yes /etc/resolov.conf has three
<froud> yes /etc/resolv.conf has three
<froud> no I cant ping past my gateway
<mdke> how odd
<froud> but in /etc/networ/interfaces
<mdke> have you tried taking your eth0 down before taking eth1 up?
<froud> but in /etc/networt/interfaces
<froud> I see that eth1 only has address and netmask defined
<froud> yes eth0 was down
<mdke> hmm
<froud> shouldn't each iface have 'address' 'netmask' 'network' 'broadcast' values
<mdke> lemme check
<mdke> i just have address, netmask, gateway, wireless-essid
<froud> in interfaces?
<mdke> yeah
<froud> ok lemme try add it with vi
<froud> ok that works
<froud> seems there is a bug in knetworkconf_module
<mdke> what was missing?
<froud> must speak to kubuntu-devel thanks
<froud> when the wlan card is defined in interfaces
<froud> it is missing everything except
<froud> address and network values
<mdke> hmm
<froud> yeah, Hmm
<mdke> ;)
<mdke> Be BaCk LaTeR
<mdke> TV
<froud> ok lemme speak to the devels at Kubuntu
<Burgundavia> I have to go looking for a job soon
<Burgundavia> as my money is running low
<jjesse> that stinks burgundavia, good luck
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> I have been very happily unemployed for almost 3 months now
<jjesse> wish i had the ability to stay unemployed for three months
<Burgundavia> I got a 3k CAD paycheck just before I left
<Burgundavia> my lastjob
<Burgundavia> been leaving off that
<zulu> how can I test who already registered a nick
<jjesse> sorry can't help you o that one zulu
<Burgundavia> no idea, you want to ask in a the freenod staff channel
<zulu> dudes zulu is froud on his lappy sitting in lounge connected via wlan:-)
<zulu> oh well just hav eto use my other nick
<venda> Burgundavia: why dont you start your own business
<venda> it beats working for somebody else
<Burgundavia> nah, too much work
<Burgundavia> I want to work for someone else 2-3 days a week
<Burgundavia> and do Ubuntu/dev stuff the other 3-4
<venda> why not start a software development company
<Burgundavia> gah
<venda> no really, do custom development
<venda> you can work from home
<venda> nite chaps
<Kinnison> night
<venda> c you in the morning
#ubuntu-doc 2005-06-01
<mdke> aha
<mdke> i was just gonna say...
<mdke> where is that dude
<jsgotangco> dude
<jsgotangco> its 6am
<mdke> wakey wakey
<jsgotangco> what an unholy hour
<Burgundavia> indeed, th unholy hour of 3pm
<mdke> Burgundavia, been to sleep yet?
<Burgundavia> nope
<jsgotangco> heck i woke up at 5:30
<Burgundavia> almos falliing asleep now
<mdke> you can make it through t 48 hrs
<Burgundavia> no I can't
<Burgundavia> I have done 3 days before
<Burgundavia> with2 hours of sleep
<mdke> *laughs*
<jsgotangco> wtf unofficial guide for ppc
<mdke> .ubuntuguide.org
<jsgotangco> bad
<mdke> i haven't looked at it?
<mdke> what's wrong with it
<jsgotangco> technically none
<jsgotangco> its a free world
<mdke> philosophically?
<jsgotangco> if you want consistency, you won't want it righ
<mdke> jsgotangco, its only natural that these things will go on outside the documentation team as long as the most popular documentation resource remains outside our tree :/
<mdke> we REALLY need to get ubuntuguide being worked on in docbook directly for the future
<mdke> i saw a html2docbook convertion spec that might help, but it is pointless if we are going to port it (again) and then find that ubuntuguide keeps getting worked on outside our docbook repo
<jsgotangco> oh boy im beginning to like opera
<Burgundavia> if only it was free
<Burgundavia> I used it from version 3 to version 6
<mdke> Burgundavia, the guide you mean?
<Burgundavia> oh boy im beginning to like opera
<Burgundavia> ^^
<mdke> oh the browser
<mdke> i thought jsgotangco was getting into singing
<jsgotangco> the google ad bar aint that bad (its only text)
* jsgotangco slaps mdke 
<mdke> sorry
<jsgotangco> heh
<mdke> *puts back on computer hat*
<jsgotangco> you don't want to see me doing an aria
<mdke> true
<jsgotangco> and im not fat enough yet
<mdke> yet? ;)
<jsgotangco> hah
<jsgotangco> overweight though, but not fat
<jsgotangco> i did get to watch pavarotti and bocelli when they toured here
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> bocelli doesn't count as opera ;)
<jsgotangco> he's kinda pop'ish
* mdke nods
<jsgotangco> its funny when he went here, women were screaming (including my wife)
<mdke> he plays the blind card
<jsgotangco> oh man i still feel so sleepy yet i have an appointment in an hour
<mdke> [23:53:56]  opi the main docs of Ubuntu (ubuntuguide and CoC) are translated
<jsgotangco> to polish?
<mdke> not sure what language
<jsgotangco> i think opi is polish
<mdke> it was the "main docs of Ubuntu" bit that got my attention
<jsgotangco> lets grab him later
<mdke> jsgotangco, i think it is more a reflection on the docs than on him
<mdke> he's right
<mdke> :(
<jsgotangco> i was reading stuff a few hours ago before i slept
<jsgotangco> i didnt know there was a bugzilla category for documentation
<jsgotangco> heh
<mdke> yeah it got assigned to enrico
<jsgotangco> kassetra, http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuAtConferences for starters :D
<mkde> welcome kassetra 
<kassetra> thank you :)
<kassetra> ok.
<kassetra> have you guys done conferences before?
* mkde shakes head
<kassetra> ok, well, I've done a bunch.  :)
<mkde> cool
<kassetra> Linux ones, Corporate ones, Tech ones, Design ones, etc.  :)
<mkde> i was just speaking for me
<mkde> i'm sure others have
<jsgotangco> i used to work in the semicon industry we did conferences before
<jsgotangco> i still speak at some technical conferences though
<kassetra> :)  I've also done the booth design, development, and setup before too.  :)
<jsgotangco> hehe i did that too, but it was more a DIY approach instead of best practices
<kassetra> LOL
<kassetra> Sometimes, that leads to really fun stuff.  :)
<jsgotangco> yeah that's how i met my wife
<kassetra> WAHAHAHAHAHA
<jsgotangco> we were booth neighbors then
<mkde> no way
<mkde> awesome
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jsgotangco> she used to be in a 3M booth
<kassetra> LOL
<jiyuu0> mdke,  ubuntu.xpm.gz is just a sample
<jiyuu0> it's the desktop of hoary
<jiyuu0> hehe
<mkde> jiyuu0, oh i c, i assumed it was a splash screen
<jiyuu0> grub image
<mkde> yeah
<mkde> sorry
<mkde> that's what i mean
<mkde> grrrr
<mkde> its too late
<jiyuu0> :)
<jiyuu0> now there's a powerpc
<jiyuu0> still waiting for someone to volunteer for amd64
<mkde> jiyuu0, we must talk about working in docbook for future releases
<mkde> jiyuu0, maybe tomorrow when i've slept
<jsgotangco> we can start up now if you want we're in the same timezone anyway
<jiyuu0> hehe
<jiyuu0> it's 9:10am here
<jsgotangco> same here
<jsgotangco> (Manila)
<mkde> there are many advantages
<jiyuu0> Malaysia
<mkde> mainly in terms of publishing the guide
<jsgotangco> jiyuu0, i'll be in KL on the 27th of June
<mkde> and in terms of translating it
<mkde> but I really have to sleep
<jiyuu0> jsgotangco, business trip
<jsgotangco> jiyuu0, yeah, maybe we can meet up and talk
<mkde> night y'all
<jsgotangco> mkde, night
<kassetra> night!  :)
<jiyuu0> mkde, night :)
<jiyuu0> jsgotangco, sure... drop me a mail :)
<jiyuu0> i bring u go eat some malaysia food
<jsgotangco> heh i'd like some mee goreng
* jsgotangco usually goes to penang
* jiyuu0 dont' really like mee goreng
<jsgotangco> i haven't really tried the food in KL
<jiyuu0> then u should either try the curry here or some chinese food
<jsgotangco> coconut milk-based food makes my tummy upset but i'll live
<jsgotangco> :)
<jiyuu0> hehe
<jiyuu0> so tried durian food before?
<jsgotangco> yeah the tastes like heaven but smells like hell
<jiyuu0> i like it a lot...
<jiyuu0> seems like it's season is coming...
<jiyuu0> here, have durian buffet too
<jiyuu0> eat all u can in 45minutes
<jsgotangco> i like the tamarind stuff from thailand
<jsgotangco> you mean durian as cooked meal or just the fruit?
<jiyuu0> not sure bout the tamarind stuff
<jiyuu0> durian as fruit
<jiyuu0> i haven eat cooked durian before
<jsgotangco> are there hawker stands in KL too?
<jiyuu0> a lot
<jiyuu0> PJ even more
<jsgotangco> ahh must be heaven
<jiyuu0> i think KL/PJ is a good place to find food
<jsgotangco> how much is a ringgit now to a us dollar?
<jiyuu0> USD1.00 = RM3.80
<jsgotangco> hmm it didnt change much
<jsgotangco> is dvd/vcd piracy still rampant?
<jiyuu0> government is controlleing the currency
<jsgotangco> ahh
<jiyuu0> yes :)
<jiyuu0> u can buy movies / software very very very easily
<jsgotangco> i remember buying like 50 DVDs for less than a US$ each
<jsgotangco> at 3am
<jiyuu0> there's a place called lowyat in kl...
<jsgotangco> heh
<jiyuu0> that's the pirated heaven
<jiyuu0> DVD9 movies at RM9
<jiyuu0> DVD5 - 3 for RM10
<jsgotangco> i don't think it'll stop its so rampant in SE Asia
<jsgotangco> its already a way of life
<jiyuu0> DVD software/games = RM15
<jiyuu0> CD software = RM3
<jiyuu0> no way they can stop
<jiyuu0> government tried
<jiyuu0> but failed
<jsgotangco> yeah its just impossible at the moment
<jiyuu0> but it's weird... when they say piracy control...
<jiyuu0> then this lowyat place (which is a building)
<jsgotangco> heh
<jiyuu0> ppl actually setup shop just to sell pirated stuff
<jiyuu0> if they want to stop... why not just closed all those shop
<jiyuu0> not so difficult
<jsgotangco> is that like a building where there are stalls all over selling the same thing
<jiyuu0> u read on news... but see no action on the pirated heaven place
<jiyuu0> and it's a very common place
<jsgotangco> isn't the BSA active there?
<jiyuu0> hardly see action
<jsgotangco> i can understand the video game piracy
<jiyuu0> bsa will only advertise on tv and radio... just to freek ppl out
<jsgotangco> the console makers won't even launch in SE Asia (except singapre)
<jiyuu0> true... i think xbox is not launched here
<jsgotangco> that's why MMORPGs from Korea are so popular
* jiyuu0 got the xbox though :)
<jsgotangco> modded of course
<jiyuu0> ic
<jiyuu0> well... when i'm back using windows... frankly... can't leave withouth piracy
<jiyuu0> it's so cheap to test/use software at home
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jsgotangco> its so accessible you can't ignore it
<jiyuu0> lucky now on open source... so hardly use pirated stuff
<jsgotangco> i've seen game shops sell only pirated games
<jiyuu0> true :)
<jiyuu0> especially the dvd9 movies
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jiyuu0> original = between RM 39 to RM 200
<jiyuu0> pirated = RM 9
<jiyuu0> so much different
<jsgotangco> the weird thing is that the quality is so good for a pirated material
<jiyuu0> true :)
<jiyuu0> they make their own compilation
<jiyuu0> even the cd cover is nice
<jsgotangco> yeah i've seen 2-in-1 dvd9 movies
<jiyuu0> 2 in 1 dvd 9 is actually 2 dvd5 in it
<jsgotangco> when i went to hong kong a while back, it was video game heaven
<jiyuu0> oh... hongkong also piracy heaven?
<jsgotangco> very
<jsgotangco> (with regards to video games though)
<jsgotangco> i think a lot of the mod chips are developed there
<jsgotangco> as well as in taiwan
<jiyuu0> ic ic...
<jsgotangco> not so much on movies, they have a lot of stuff in mandarin
<jiyuu0> so how bout manila?
<jsgotangco> just like in KL i guess, but KL is much more urban
<jsgotangco> in terms of piracy we have our moments
<jsgotangco> heh
<jsgotangco> movie piracy is so big
<jsgotangco> as well as software
<jsgotangco> BSA isnt doing anything either
<jsgotangco> i think most of the stuff come from the backdoor, down south going to sabah
<jiyuu0> true... they seems to be like drama ppl
<jsgotangco> while price of oil is still high, the only price that doesn't go up here are pirated stuff
<jsgotangco> (not to mention its tax free as well)
<jiyuu0> true :)
<jiyuu0> the price of piracy always goes lower and lower
* jiyuu0 gotta go grab some breakfast... brb :)
<easthero> so less people
<easthero> -_-
<easthero> hi,all
<EricNeon> hello
<jsgotangco> hello
<jsgotangco> what can we do for you
<jsgotangco> EricNeon, hi its been a while how have you been
<EricNeon> ^
<easthero> we have translation the ubuntuguide to chinese
<EricNeon> easthero had translated ubuntuguide into chinese
<EricNeon> jsgotangco, you can find out at wiki.ubuntu.org.cn
<jsgotangco> hmmm ubuntuguide is jiyuu0's personal work its not part of the ubuntu-doc work (at the moment though)
<jsgotangco> sure
<easthero> EricNeon, the major translator is youI can only be called maintainer
<EricNeon> oh,
<jsgotangco> wow this thing is huge
<EricNeon> I will do it go on next week while I have time
<easthero> the warty guide is update still
<jsgotangco> have you guys talked to smurfix about your LoCo team?
* jsgotangco should brush up his mandarin again soon
<EricNeon> oh,thank you 
<EricNeon> I will
<jsgotangco> if you need help on that, just tell me so
<EricNeon> thx, 
<easthero> jsgotangco, www.ubuntuguide.org is a unoffical group?
<jsgotangco> yes its an unofficial guide at the moment, but jiyuu0, the author is willing to make it an official document
<easthero> oh
<EricNeon> easthero,yes
<jsgotangco> speaking of jiyuu0 
<EricNeon> jiyuu0, ~
<easthero> it should be offical
<easthero> jiyuu0, hi
<jsgotangco> easthero, it will be but we have to make some changes
<jiyuu0> easthero, heloo
<EricNeon> hi jiyuu0,we are talking about translate the document of yours
<EricNeon> easthero and me are come from chinese
<jiyuu0> EricNeon, there's a tw version already
<jiyuu0> tw.ubuntuguide.org
<EricNeon> we had translated ubuntuguide inito chinese , 
* easthero is away: away for a monment
<EricNeon> there's a CN version now
<jiyuu0> EricNeon, where?
<EricNeon> wiki.ubuntu.org.cn
<jiyuu0> i can create cn.ubuntuguide.org for u
<EricNeon> heh ,thank you
<jiyuu0> can u send me the index.html to my email
<jiyuu0> i will reply back with the account info shortly :)
<jiyuu0> jiyuu0@gmail.com
<EricNeon> ok
<EricNeon> http://wiki.ubuntu.org.cn/index.php/Hoarystarterguide/document_view
<froud> African Greetings
<jsgotangco> hi froud 
<froud> hi
<froud> why does it seem like your ptch reverses all the things I did last night?
<jsgotangco> no there was a conflict today
<froud> OK so how did you resolve the conflict
<jsgotangco> i used your version
<jsgotangco> 1037 i think
<froud> He he:-) something went wrong
<jsgotangco> i know
<froud> ya its ok I will fix it
<jsgotangco> i guess to avoid this again, let me finish the thing first
<froud> no no hack the source
<jsgotangco> i was a bit woozy when i fixed this it was around 6:30am
<froud> just remember work small commit often
<froud> before you start work svn up
<froud> and before you commit do it again
<jsgotangco> if i svn up itll say theres a conflict
<froud> that way you will see the problems
<froud> yes, but then you can resolve it
<jsgotangco> well yes (i guess i wasn't that attentive this morning)
<froud> are you using kdiff3
<jsgotangco> im not in kubuntu anymore
<froud> ok ok :-)
<jsgotangco> konqueror just keeps on crashing
<froud> so you know on ubuntu
<froud> Hmm, I have not had that problem
<froud> I had some other problems
<froud> its a first release so these things are to be expected
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jsgotangco> anyway i just discovered how great bluefish is for a free docbook editor
<jsgotangco> its not that smart though
<froud> yeah it work well, perhaps speak to te dev team and they can make it xml smart
<jsgotangco> are you going to fix the file?
<froud> yeah, just taking a look at it
<froud> jsgotangco: do you remember what change you actually makde
<jsgotangco> froud, just some very minor spell checks and removed some lines on the introduction which you also did
<jsgotangco> i played around with warning tags as well nothing major really
<jsgotangco> i can always put them back
<froud> do an svn up and see if you get an update now
<jsgotangco> nope
<jsgotangco> theres no update yet
<froud> no I just need to merge
<froud> ok it is now at r1039 I have merge r1037 back to head
<froud> its ard for me to see the exact changes you made in 1038
<froud> as that r contains many chnages of mine from 10.37
<jsgotangco> hmmm
<froud> can you svn up
<jsgotangco> you have 2 working copies?
<froud> no
<froud> one
<froud> why
<jsgotangco> was wondering how you have the old revisions
<froud> Oh, no that is why we work in svn
<froud> here is the command I used
<froud> svn merge -r 1038:1037 https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/trunk/kde/kquickguide/C/kquickguide.xml 
<froud> U kquickguide.xml
<froud> successfully (0)
<froud> I did a reverse merge to bring back my r and then committe dthat back to head
<froud> you could also do it
<froud> have you read svn book?
<jsgotangco> when i have time i read
<jsgotangco> but not that in-depth lately
* froud goes to find the section that explains
<froud> Just read this bit
<froud> http://svnbook.red-bean.com/en/1.0/svn-book.html#svn-ch-4-sect-4.2
<jsgotangco> svn has the old revisions on file?
<froud> just the patches
<froud> pretty cool stuff hey :-)
<jsgotangco> hmm
<jsgotangco> interesting
<jsgotangco> oh right just the patches, just like the one sent in ubuntu-commit
<froud> yeah, and svn knows how to bring it together as a single file
<froud> svn is very powerful
<froud> we dont yet use even a 10% of its power
<jsgotangco> let me see the diff on that particular file
<froud> but there are somethings I dont think it is good for, like kernel hacking
<froud> you can diff between 1039 and 1037 
<froud> you can diff between 1039 and 1038
<jsgotangco> i shouldnt rely that much on esvn
<froud> no esvn has all the features of the svn client
<froud> but many of the features you may not see or understand the use of
<jsgotangco> well i shouldnt do the gui without knowing what the commands mean
<jsgotangco> but most of the basic stuff ive already covered
<froud> to use svn client or esvn you should know the environment and its possabilities.
<froud> you can also do commands in esvn
<froud> you see the log window
<jsgotangco> yeah just at the bottom
<jsgotangco> thats what i use
<froud> yeah, that is the same working in a shell
<froud> so you can type commands directly into esvn
<jsgotangco> yeah
* mdke rubs eyes in disbelief
<mdke> ugh
<jsgotangco> im trying to absorb this as much as i can
<froud> and why does mdke say ugh
<jsgotangco> just in case *knocks on wood* you decide to go further
<mdke> froud, 5 hours sleep is not enough
<froud> jsgotangco: we all make errors, main thing is you learn form them. Even I have made some pretty stupid mistakes
* froud agrees
<jsgotangco> i still feel sleepy
<jsgotangco> i woke up at 5 just to attend the CC meeting
<froud> I could kick myself sometimes at the stupid stuff I do
<jsgotangco> and its only 2:30PM ugghh
<froud> he he
<froud> what is the CC meeting
<jsgotangco> community council
<jsgotangco> you know
<mdke> <-- shower
<froud> Oh right, what did they have to say
<jsgotangco> oh admitting new members for what its worth
<jsgotangco> froud, about that artwork and stuff
<froud> Ok yeah I did not get to it yesterday
<jsgotangco> its ok
<jsgotangco> we were talking about it earlier today
<jsgotangco> you had a booth in linuxworld right?
<jsgotangco> jeeezz i'm beginning to like docbook more
<froud> yes
<froud> I did
<froud> why
<jsgotangco> was wondering of booth sizes are standard anywhere you go
<froud> no they are not
* froud must do the school run brb
* mdke has to go to class
<mdke> double ugh
* jsgotangco has to attend this boring meeting ugh
<easthero> jiyuu0, Are you Malaysian?
<jsgotangco> yes he is
<jiyuu0> easthero, yes :)
<easthero> wow
<jsgotangco> yah asian pride rock on
<jsgotangco> heh
<jiyuu0> cool :)
<easthero> :D
<easthero> oneleaf, :D
<oneleaf> 
<oneleaf> :)
<oneleaf> hello jiyuu0
<jiyuu0> oneleaf, hello :)
<easthero> jiyuu0, oneleaf is the maintainer of ubuntu.org.cn
<oneleaf> I already translation it to Chinese
<jiyuu0> cool... 
<oneleaf> :)
<jiyuu0> can u send it to me... i'll creat cn.ubuntuguide.org for u
<oneleaf> http://www.ubuntu.org.cn/hoarystarterguide/document_view
<oneleaf> ok
<oneleaf> thanks
<jiyuu0> oneleaf, could u follow the css and images in ubuntuguide.org
<jiyuu0> e.g.
<jiyuu0> http://nl.ubuntuguide.org/
<jiyuu0> i'll create a login for u... so in future u can maintain it there
<oneleaf> ok
<jiyuu0> just drop me a mail :)
<jiyuu0> jiyuu0@gmail.com
<oneleaf> ok
<oneleaf> my mail oneleaf@gmail.com
<easthero> gmail so popular
<oneleaf> y
<jsgotangco> well its fast and its free
<jsgotangco> you can even do POP
<jsgotangco> bye bye
* cafuego_ wibbles
<Burgundavia> hello
<Burgundavia> just had a few questions about your bot
<Burgundavia> firstly, thanks for running it
* cafuego_ nods
<Burgundavia> I was just wondering what kind of info it was handing out, etc.
<cafuego_> well, running it pending approval from ops
<Burgundavia> sure
<Burgundavia> not a big deal
<cafuego_> it fetches and indexes the Packages.gz and COntents.gz files from warty/hoary/breezy i386... so you can interrogate packages.
<Burgundavia> ok
<Burgundavia> cool
<cafuego_> apart from that it's just an infobot, so it outputs whatever you put in.
<novaflare> you could program it with the faq easly enough 
<novaflare> just take alot of time to get the triggers and responses done
<cafuego_> I expect so (well, someone who knew actual perl, as opposed to mock perl)
<Burgundavia> ok, when you start doing that, would you mind chatting with the doc team beforehand?
<cafuego_> No worries
<Burgundavia> cheers
<Burgundavia> then we can sort of control the quality
<cafuego_> i'll need to see first how running it goes; I've had a scary amount of portscans since starting the bot <heh>
<cafuego_> Awright, my wife wants her laptop back. See youse later :-)
<Burgundavia> ok
<jiyuu0> Burgundavia, can u view this page?
<jiyuu0> http://jiyuu0.homelinux.org:7979
<jiyuu0> i'm testing streaming media server
<Burgundavia> yep
<jiyuu0> Burgundavia, can it stream audio?
<mkde> hi dudes
<jiyuu0> http://jiyuu0.homelinux.org:7979/Richard%20Marx%20-%20Ready%20To%20Fly.mp3.m3u
<jiyuu0> mkde, hello :)
<mkde> hiya
<mkde> jiyuu0, did you and jscotango talk at all about ubuntuguide and docbook?
<jiyuu0> mkde, nope
<jiyuu0> mkde = mdke ?
<mkde> yeah
<jiyuu0> can u help me test something?
<mkde> sure
<jiyuu0> http://jiyuu0.homelinux.org:7979/Richard%20Marx%20-%20Ready%20To%20Fly.mp3.m3u
<jiyuu0> download this play list
<mkde> except that
<jiyuu0> and try can it or not?
<jiyuu0> ic
<mkde> fraid not
<mkde> no soundcard/mediaplayer on this pc
<jiyuu0> ic... 
<mkde> i'm on a stupid windows computer at my college
<jiyuu0> it's ok :)
<mkde> in the library ;)
<jiyuu0> ic...
<Seveas> jiyuu0, i hear music from that link :)
<Seveas> it skips a lot though...
<jiyuu0> cool... and u can still connect to irc .. not bad
<jiyuu0> Seveas, thanks :)
<jiyuu0> my line here is bad
<mkde> jiyuu0, i'm on mirc
<jiyuu0> but if it can connect and streams... means it's wopking :)
<Seveas> indeed :)
<jiyuu0> mirc = windows
<jiyuu0> Seveas, thanks :)
<jiyuu0> ok... just added
<jiyuu0> http://ubuntuguide.org/#streamingmediaserver
<mkde> i use gnump3d for streaming audio, its awesome
<jiyuu0> it can stream video too :)
<mkde> cool
<mkde> anyway docbook
<mkde> the advantages would be immense
<mkde> docbook is very good for porting: it can be easily converted to html, pdf, everything.
<mkde> also, we could publish the guide in ubuntu local help
<mkde> also, we can open the guide for editing to increase its quality
<mkde> also, we can translate the guide easily via rosetta
<mkde> also, we can ensure that the guide is ready for release time
<mkde> jiyuu0, what are your thoughts on this?
<jiyuu0> true... and it will be everybody's work
<mkde> jiyuu0, is that good or bad?
<mkde> from your point of view
<jiyuu0> but... it would be hard for me to modify it based on my style
<mkde> jiyuu0, what do you mean?
<mkde> hey the channel is big today
<jiyuu0> i'm workin on this proj soon
<jiyuu0> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=36614&highlight=ubuntu+handbook
<jiyuu0> have a dead line actually
<mkde> jiyuu0, what are your reasons for working outside the documentation team on this stuff?
<jiyuu0> i have a open source club going on and i'm using it for my material
<jiyuu0> workshops and stuff
<jiyuu0> the add-on-cd purpose is because during training... there's no way i can ask 30 students to apt-get at same time
<jiyuu0> and that's how the add-on-cd was born
<mkde> right
<jiyuu0> initially when i started the ubuntuguide... it was my reference
<jiyuu0> somehow release to share it...
<jiyuu0> then it grew and grew and grew
<mkde> but you understand that it is the role of the documentation team to try and produce good collective documentation for Ubuntu, using all of the resources possible, and that where things are produced outside the team, it makes this job quite a lot harder
<mkde> the guy who started that thread has essentially asked the same question that the docteam has been trying to address for months
<mkde> we want to draw on all the excellent material and try and organise it so that it is accessible to all
<mkde> in a simple and clear way
<jiyuu0> i understand
<jiyuu0> but just not sure how it's going to work
<jiyuu0> is ti
<jiyuu0> convert the guide
<jiyuu0> then public as open 
<jiyuu0> and others can ammend
<mkde> well it would be essential that the document be open source yes
<mkde> but in the repository only certain people have upload access
<mkde> in practice generally the documents are only worked on by one or two people
<mkde> we also are trying to find a way to use the material contained in the wiki
<mkde> jiyuu0, what would be the disadvantages from your point of view?
<jiyuu0> i guess it's the feeling of losing control over it
<jiyuu0> as the main reason it's close (but available online) is because it's cathered to my own preference/reference.
<mkde> jiyuu0, here's my opinion
<mkde> jiyuu0, the ubuntuguide has such a massive following that essentially it has become the major piece of documentation about Ubuntu
<mkde> jiyuu0, for this reason, I believe it is important that it is opensource
<mkde> brb
<mkde> ok back
<mkde> so i was saying
<mkde> when a guide assumes that great an audience, its important that the quality is maintained carefully
<mkde> also I believe that it is a great guide so should be brought to the ubuntu local help as well as those who use the internet
<mkde> but these are simply my opinions
<mkde> jiyuu0 you're the author and its your decision
<jiyuu0> gimme some time to think bout it... my rush now is the Training Material + Coursebook for Ubuntu
<mkde> jiyuu0, ok, let us know. If you decide to open it up, it will take a bit of time to port it
<_froud> jiyuu0: why dont you just work with us. We have discussed with you on this before. We welcome you and support you but your content is not free and open
<jiyuu0> gimme some time
<mkde> jiyuu0, *nods*
<jiyuu0> thanks :)
<froud> jiyuu0: I need to understand, some weeks ago we discusse dthis with you
<froud> back then you also said give time
<venda> African Greetings - today is Africa Day
<venda> I am an African
<venda> somebody up for working on the network install document
<venda> it can be found in https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/trunk/generic/instalguide/C
<venda> it is a rough dump and transform to docbook from the original authors web site
<venda> need to be reviewed and written in a way that can fit in the main generic install guide
<venda> any takers on the channel
<jjesse> didn't froud send something in the mailing list that he was working on it?
<mdke> that is froud
<mdke> ;)
<mdke> venda = froud
<jjesse> oh sorry didn't know that
<jjesse> * learned something new today
<mdke> ;)
<mdke> it is a new nick
<jjesse> grin
<jjesse> where there any takers on it?  if not i can try and invest sometime tonight
<jjesse> don't know how much time i will have wife has talked me into getting a dog and we are picking it up tonight
<mdke> *grins*
<mdke> awesome
<jjesse> just a note, you should set your webfilter to block pet adoption places :)
<abelli> ciao
<mdke> ola
<venda> ala cool
<venda> making it, I think
<venda> mdke: what do you think we should do with all the samples
<mdke> you mean the <pre> stuff?
<venda> Hmm the links to text files
<mdke> erm
<venda> should be link to them
<mdke> i haven't seen em
<jjesse> alrighty have a good night, i'll try to look at hte installguide if i have a chance
<venda> some of the OK, but some are just part of the output a user will see on command
<venda> like dpkg.list
<mdke> ok i see em
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> no idea
<venda> its a trade off
<venda> if we keep them then we must update them
<mdke> update them?
<venda> if we dont then will it impact the reader
<mdke> hmmm
<venda> well some may change from time-to-time
<mdke> oh yeah
<mdke> we should keep em imo
<venda> this means we have to track them
<mdke> is there an easy way to do it from a technical point of view?
<venda> anything is possible its just needs to be programmed :-)
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> perhaps they don't add a huge amount
<venda> maybe we need to decide on a case-by-case basis
<venda> if sample is of a command output then the user will see it on screen
<mdke> shall we leave the decision til later?
<venda> take dpkg.list for example
<venda> it could be different for each computer
<venda> yes we can
<venda> I can also just inlcude the files in the body of the document on processing
<venda> that way they stay as external files, but when we process the content will be expanded into the body of the document
<venda> I would like to close up as many issues as I can so that others can get at the doucment and hack parts they want
<venda> I would like this baby up asap
<venda> I will do the kubuntu stuff, since I think I am the only person using Kubuntu
<venda> plan on Riddle putting it up on kubuntu.org
<mdke> cool
<mdke> Be BaCk LaTeR
<mdke> watching the last stages of the european soccer cup final
<venda> 3 3 mate
<venda> bet its a shootout
<venda> 1984 all over again
<mdke> yep shootout
<venda> :-) Liverpool wins
<mdke> you think?
<venda> what a question
<venda> ACM are hopeless a penalty shootout
<venda> well here goes lets see
<venda> oh nooooo
<mdke> ouch
<mdke> worst penalty ever
<venda> imagine how bad he feels now
<mdke> he's won a few world cups tho
<venda> 1 0
<mdke> he'll be ok
<venda> we hope
<venda> he looks calm
<mdke> omg
<venda> oh nooo
<mdke> pirlo!
<mdke> that keeper is weird
<mdke> but it seems to pay off
<venda> go liverpool
<mdke> 2-1 ;)
<venda> argh!!!!!
<venda> I cant stand it
<venda> my wife is backing aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaacm
<mdke> *laughs*
<mdke> my girlfriend is too
<venda> 2 2
<venda> pray
<mdke> yes
<venda> yahhhh!
<mdke> that is incredible
<venda> yes yesy
<venda> yes
<venda> yes
<venda> yes
<venda> yes
<venda> yes
<venda> yes
<venda> yes
<mdke> my god
<venda> yes
<venda> yes
<venda> yes
<mdke> 3-0 down at half time and they've won it
<venda> yes
<venda> yes
<venda> brilliant
<mdke> they came 5th in the english league this year...
<venda> now you want to be on the wirral
<venda> people will be pissed drunk until early morn
<mdke> all the english fans have got the belly's out
<venda> thats my lot for tonight, not quite where I wanted it but its going strong
<venda> good night
#ubuntu-doc 2005-06-02
* easthero is away: ZZzzzz
<jsgotangco> top of the morning :)
<jsgotangco> wow that nokia 770 tablet sure looks sweet
<Burgundavia> yes
<easthero> jiyuu0, heloo
<jsgotangco> hmm would it be possible to encrypt an email message even without a proper digital signature?
<robitaille> you could encrypt+compress the message using "zip -e" and attach the resulting zip file to the e-mail. But the recipient would need the password you used to decrypt it.  zip is probably not the most secure form of encryption
<jsgotangco> enrico, hi
<enrico> hi
<mdke> morning all
<Burgundavia> salut
<jsgotangco> hey
<jsgotangco> brb
* froud burbs into the channel
<Kinnison> Morning
<mpt> morning Kinnison
<venda> evening
<jjesse> hello venda
<venda> hi jjesse what new?
<jjesse> not much, spent some time looking over the network install guide last night
<venda> how di dit go
<jjesse> looked good
<venda> think you can work it into the instalguide?
<jjesse> didn't finish readin it but i can sure work on it
<venda> OK, I think it should go at then of the install guide, but we need to work it into the top of the dock
<venda> at the end
<venda> it's in article format at present, so guess you will need to change the semantics when you move it into the instalguide
<jjesse> ok i might need some help on this as i haven't done really big work before but i'll learn my way through
<jjesse> :)
<venda> jjesse: can you commit often on it when you start working, so I can work with you on it
<venda> you have commit access yes?
<jjesse> no i don't have commit access
<jjesse> which is why i just sent the last .diff of the kquickguide
<venda> please send your pgp keys to elmo
<jjesse> ok will do
<venda> let's get you commit
<venda> I will let enrico know so he can arrange that elmo will do it for you.
<jjesse> alrighty where do find the information to send to elmo?
<venda> jjesse: you need to create a pgp key
<jjesse> i did we worked on that awhile ago and i sent it a keyserver
<venda> ok so you should have the public key on your system
<venda> where did you store it
<venda> send the public key to elmo
<jjesse> ok
<venda> if you work small and commit often I can help you if there are problems
<jjesse> ok i'll get that taken care of tonight when i get home from work
<venda> good night
#ubuntu-doc 2005-06-03
<jsgotangco> morning
<Burgundavia> salut
<jiyuu0> just created this thread
<jiyuu0>  UbuntuGuide Learning Material for Beginners
<jiyuu0> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=188692
<jsgotangco> ummm
<jsgotangco> jiyuu0, it would be great if you can talk to jdub about this
<jsgotangco> we had a BOF about training materials
<jiyuu0> BOF?
<jsgotangco> Birds of a Feather
<jsgotangco> let me get that BOF session
<jiyuu0> i have to start this quick as i'm organizing the workshop of such by end of june
<jsgotangco> yes, there's no problem with that
<jiyuu0> and the material should finish by mid june
<jiyuu0> am working on this full time :)
<jsgotangco> but wouldn't it be nice if your training materials would become official materials just in case?
<jsgotangco> yes i understand that
<jsgotangco> http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/CertificationAndTraining
<jiyuu0> making it official would be nice
<jsgotangco> http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/TrainingLiveCd
<jiyuu0> but have to come out with the first draft
* jiyuu0 checking the links
* jsgotangco thinks you should join the next developer conference
<jsgotangco> you can contribute a lot for sure with regards to community matters
<jiyuu0> while waiting for the next meeting/conference
<jiyuu0> i'll start the ball rolling first
<jsgotangco> yeah go for it
<jiyuu0> how's the table of content?
<jsgotangco> its great but im no expert in training materials
<jiyuu0> me too
<jsgotangco> you should consult froud he's the expert on documentation systems
<jsgotangco> he's been doing stuff like these in ZA for quite some time
<froud> African greetings
<jsgotangco> speak of the devil
<jiyuu0> yes... he has been asking to open up ubuntuguide.org too :)
<jsgotangco> you should
<jiyuu0> the devil watchin over us...
<jsgotangco> it has so much potential
<jiyuu0> yes... the force is strong with this one
* jiyuu0 too much starwars
<jsgotangco> it would be great if we could meet up if my trip to KL pushes through
<jiyuu0> sure.... and i thought is today
<jiyuu0> froud, http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=188692
<jiyuu0> another guy here in MY is helping out too
<jiyuu0> he will be compiling it and puttin into proper english
<froud> yes I have seen this thread
<jiyuu0> and i'll give him the structure and points
<froud> and I wrote http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=188692
<froud> ooops
<froud> and I wrote http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/CertificationAndTraining
<froud> http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/CertificationAndTraining is no smal thing and has to be done very very well
<jiyuu0> true
<froud> I already started this as a commercial excercise
<jiyuu0> mine would be much simplier
<froud> I am hapy to colloborate with youon this
<froud> providing we meet the terms of the docteam licenses
<froud> and the work is done in svn
<jiyuu0> can svn be printed as a handbook
<froud> yes
<froud> PDF
<jsgotangco> yes
<jiyuu0> ok... i'll make the first draft
<jsgotangco> DocBook rules the world
<jiyuu0> in word format then we beautify it into svn
<froud> use OOo Writer
<jiyuu0> oops... hehe
<froud> jiyuu0: please send elmo your public pgp key
<jsgotangco> sxw
<froud> that way we can get you commit access
<jiyuu0> i don't have pgp key... never used it b4
<froud> yes
<jsgotangco> jiyuu0, create one its easy
<froud> first time for everything
<jiyuu0> true
<jsgotangco> just make sure you keep the key
<froud> jiyuu0: I have ported ubuntuguide to docbook it is now in svn
<jsgotangco> (someone here accidentally erased his key)
<jiyuu0> froud, can u send me ur email... i have another guy who is also workin on this too
<froud> sean@inwords.co.za
<jiyuu0> i'm meeting him shortly
<jiyuu0> to discuss bout his
<jiyuu0> this
<froud> Images are drawn in inkscape
<jsgotangco> froud, spiffy posters in svn? *grin*
* jsgotangco would start cracking his whip soon too
<froud> Arhhh yes forgot too busy
<froud> jiyuu0: will you work on ubuntuguide in svn
<jiyuu0> i'm rushin for this new training thing... 
<jiyuu0> dead line end of june
<jiyuu0> material by mid june
<jsgotangco> for your business?
<jiyuu0> temporary will not have big changes in ubuntu guide
<froud> why june, breezy wont be out until October
<froud> pleae make all changes in svn
<jiyuu0> jsgotangco, not really... it's a open source training session that i organise for my open source club
<froud> jiyuu0: please can you make change in svn, it takes time for us to keep tracking your changes
<jiyuu0> u mean the ubuntuguide.org?
<jsgotangco> froud, i can help him out we're in the same timezone anyway
<froud> yes
<jiyuu0> i've created a log file
<froud> jiyuu0: why not just do it in svn
<froud> once you have commit access you will be able to do it much faster
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jiyuu0> i have plans for that in the next version (breezy)
<froud> great plans are good but do it in svn
<jsgotangco> we can move the existing one now with very little effort
<froud> jsgotangco: I have moved it
<jsgotangco> ahh right
<froud> and now I am doing the markup
<froud> jiyuu0: will you work in svn?
<jiyuu0> not now... i have to work on the training stuff
<jiyuu0> nothing major would come up in ubuntuguide.org
<froud> no I mean in general when you come to making updates
<jiyuu0> all hands tied :(
<froud> making them in svn would be easier
* jiyuu0 needs extra hands
<froud> we are extra hands
<jiyuu0> can u update the svn
<jiyuu0> and i'll update the .html with proper changelog
<froud> jiyuu0: do you understand how open source development works
<froud> jiyuu0: no
<froud> we are not going to track that
<froud> jiyuu0: please understand
<froud> I am not going to waste my time if a person is not going to work in a toatlly free and open way
<froud> I have better things to do that try to keep track of changes in ubuntuguide.org
<froud> change log or no
<jiyuu0> i can't work on it right now (no major updates for ubuntuguide.org)... changing the original site to svn would change a lot of things
<jsgotangco> froud already moved it you're just going to maintain it in svn
<froud> jiyuu0: at some point you do realize that I will just start ignoring you
<jsgotangco> svn will track changes for everyone of us
<froud> why do you need so much control
<jsgotangco> that's why you're supposed to create a gpg key and send it to elmo
<jiyuu0> cause i use it to teach other ppl strictly based on it
<jiyuu0> and everything works with it
<froud> jiyuu0: we want you to join us and work with us, its good for all of us, but there is a limit
<froud> jiyuu0: I am not sure you understand the power of FOSS development models or how they work
<jiyuu0> and it's difficult for me to keep track of changes other ppl had made
<froud> no it is not
<froud> we have a mail system for exactly that
<froud> jiyuu0: once I have finsihed porting this doc, it will take a life on its own in svn, the community will improve it
<froud> you have toput trust in the community it is more powerful that anyone of us
<froud> each of us needs to work selflessly
<froud> by sharing ideas and giving control to the community you will benefit greatly
<froud> at present you seem to be doing great work, but you do not want to lose control
<froud> I understand this, but feel that you need to take this leap of faith at some point
<froud> trust and work with the community, that is all we ask
<froud> at some point we will stop asking you
<jsgotangco> froud, this should also apply on the kubuntu and ppc guide that came out
<jsgotangco> its getting pretty fragmented
<froud> and instead of working together we will be compteing against each other, that is very sad
<froud> jsgotangco: yes
<jsgotangco> i should talk to the guy who did for kubuntu
<froud> I am very concerned about the fragmentation
<froud> yes, where is thatURL again
<jsgotangco> hmm
<jsgotangco> wait let me check the list
<jsgotangco> KUDOS or something
<froud> jiyuu0: so what do you think, canyou work with us on everything in svn
<jsgotangco> http://kudos.berlios.de/
<jiyuu0> froud, really give me some time here... cause it's going to change the way i'm writing
<jiyuu0> and maitaining it
<froud> jiyuu0: it will give you more time
<froud> it will make it easier for you
<jsgotangco> Abdullah Ramazanoglu
<jiyuu0> u see i've have dead line for the training material... i am going to do it full force
<jiyuu0> and it will be based on the ubuntuguide.org and add-on-cd
<froud> do it in svn and you will get help
<jiyuu0> to change it to svn right now... means burning extra time
<froud> do it outside and I am not intersted in helping
<froud> time you will make up when you have more hands from the community
* froud starts to get tired of this
<jsgotangco> let's adjourn this for a while
<jsgotangco> we're just going in circles
<froud> jiyuu0: do you or do you not want help
* jiyuu0 tired of asking for some extra time
<froud> jiyuu0: WE ARE OFFERING YOU EXTRA HANDS WE CAN DO MORE TOGETHER, THAT IS HEAPS OF EXTRA TIME
<froud> jiyuu0: BUT YOU NEEDS TO COMPROMISE SO WE CAN COLLABORATE
<jiyuu0> training material project -> svn from the beginning 
<jiyuu0> that i can do
<froud> jiyuu0: agreed
<jiyuu0> but ubuntuguide.org -> svn (shortly)
<froud> jiyuu0: I ported 5.04 yesterday
<froud> its in svn already
<froud> I am just cleaning up the markup
<froud> jiyuu0: did you understand what I just said?
<froud> 5.04 is in svn as of two days ago
<froud> 5.04 is available as docbook xml in svn, all we ask is that if and when you need to do updates that you please do them in svn
<froud> jiyuu0: plovs did the port for warty and I have done the port for hoary, this stuff takes time and we dont want to waste our time
<jiyuu0> froud, yes... to look into ubuntuguide.org svn needs time... and my time now is at training material
<jiyuu0> that's why ubuntuguide.org (svn) will come in shortly
<jiyuu0> ubuntuguide.org (svn) means changing the current state of ubuntuguide
<jiyuu0> web site have to change too
<froud> jiyuu0: in the community there will be changes, its to be expected.
<froud> flow with these changes
<froud> I think you will find that the changes improve things
<jiyuu0> like jsgotangco said... let's adjourn this topic for a while... i need to concentrate on the training materials
<froud> jsgotangco: will you contact KUDOS guy
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jsgotangco> as early as possible
<jsgotangco> don't want this to happen again
<froud> OK, I think we can do FAG Guide as Kubuntu and Ubuntu, what do you think
<jsgotangco> kubuntu will be much easier except i know you're traded barbs with this guy before
<jsgotangco> FAQ Guide sounds good its already there
<jsgotangco> i can whip it up probably a day or two and show it to the kudos guy
<froud> jsgotangco: no no, I mean we can do both FAQ Guides in one XML file
<jsgotangco> hmmm
<jsgotangco> won't that be messy
<froud> I already started to profile it as such
<jsgotangco> hmm what should i do then
<jsgotangco> you can move it to generic
<froud> not really, there are many things the same between the distros
<froud> it is in generic
<froud> :-)
<jsgotangco> ohh
<jsgotangco> svn up
<jsgotangco> ok will look at it later then
<froud> <book lang="&language;" id="x01">
<froud>     <title>
<froud>         <phrase os="kde">Kubuntu</phrase>
<froud>         <phrase id="gnome">Ubuntu</phrase> FAQ Guide</title>
<froud> oops I see a bug
<jsgotangco> hmmm i should email amu or Riddell sometime
<froud> <book lang="&language;" id="x01">
<froud>     <title>
<froud>         <phrase os="kde">Kubuntu</phrase>
<froud>         <phrase os="gnome">Ubuntu</phrase> FAQ Guide</title>
<froud>     <bookinfo>
<jsgotangco> i still dont know the roadmap
<froud> amu and riddle know about it
<froud> ;-)
<jsgotangco> no no i mean i dont know the roadmap
<jsgotangco> i should
<jsgotangco> i should email kubuntu-users and ask for help on screenshots
<froud> yes, good idea
<jsgotangco> im sure i'll get replies
<froud> dont know until you try
<froud> I suggest you do one or two as examples
<froud> that way they have somethng to follow
<jsgotangco> yeah but i think we also have conventions on screenshots
<jsgotangco> (i still have to read on that)
<froud> yes look at code in gnome quick guide
<jsgotangco> yeah i was studying that last night
<froud> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/TakingScreenshots
<jsgotangco> yeah that too
<froud> cool dude your the best
<jsgotangco> that KUDOS thing is huge though
<froud> great
<froud> no worries
<jsgotangco> one question though
<jsgotangco> we're in bugzilla
<froud> yes
<jsgotangco> but enrico is still the contact?
<froud> enrico is around
<froud> he is still part of the team, just busy with work
<jsgotangco> yeah we don't get that much bugs anyway
<froud> there was talk about going to malone
<froud> I think it may be a good idea
<jsgotangco> well main documentation should still be in bugzilla (if i know)
<froud> I think Burgundavia wanted to move us to Malone
<jsgotangco> i think malone is mostly universer for now
<froud> yes, but we can port over to malone
<jsgotangco> do we have a roadmap of going out to svn?
<froud> what?
<jsgotangco> i mean
<jsgotangco> are there plans to move us to baz?
<jsgotangco> or do we decide to keep svn
<froud> there was talk but no plan, I dont think people what to do it
<froud> so we just keep in svn
<jsgotangco> we should upgrade though
<froud> elmo was supposed to upgrade, but hey who knows
<froud> for now it does not slow us down
<jsgotangco> (but then we don't even utilize 50% of existing features)
<froud> that's ok
<jsgotangco> for our size, it works at the moment
<froud> we use what we use and have room for growth
<froud> svn can support many thousands
<jsgotangco> we only got like 4 people with active accounts
<froud> there are more active accounts, but people not able to commit right now
* jsgotangco don't know who the others are
<froud> people like trickie
<froud> plovs
<jsgotangco> yeah but trickie just retired (temporarily)
<froud> hornbeck
<froud> yes, but that is the nature of FOSS, they will come and go
<froud> and come back again
<jsgotangco> i sure hope so
<jsgotangco> its funny though
<jsgotangco> in the contributors list
<froud> however, at core you're right, we are 4 people
<jsgotangco> documentation has the most number of people
<froud> I think it is just because of the wiki
<jsgotangco> *tee hee*
<jsgotangco> i was thinking though
<jsgotangco> with kubuntu
<jsgotangco> would it be possible for it to have a splash screen on first boot showing docs
<jsgotangco> quickguide for example
<froud> dont understand
<jsgotangco> ahhh forget about it for now october is a long way
<jsgotangco> we'll just hack first
<froud> yeah
<froud> OK, I must get doing with my day. Keep up the great work on kwickguide
<froud> I really like it
<froud> think you have done a super job
<jsgotangco> thanks it should be finished soon before i jump to another doc
<jsgotangco> dont like to work on multiple docs
<froud> yeah, once you have it we can upload it to Kubuntu web site
<froud> that's ok
<froud> you like to focus
<jsgotangco> who hosts kubuntu.org?
<froud> I understand that
<froud> Riddle
<jsgotangco> ahhh
<jsgotangco> that's weird
<froud> why
<jsgotangco> but amu contributes heavily
<froud> yes, he has an account
<jsgotangco> well at least kubuntu is a kde testbed
<jsgotangco> hmm
<jsgotangco> let me get this straight
<jsgotangco> riddell has commit to ubuntu
<froud> yes
<jsgotangco> but kubuntu stuff it just pulled?
<froud> kinda
<froud> dont let it worry you
<jsgotangco> no it doesnt
<froud> good :-)
<jsgotangco> im just surprised
<froud> Ok, thanks for all the work you are doing, c you later jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> ok see you
<mvirkkil> is it ok to use text/x-docbook+xml as the mimetype?
<mdke> morning all
<jsgotangco> mdke, hey
<jsgotangco> top of the morning to you
<mdke> same to you
* jsgotangco cracks his whip
<jsgotangco> where's your work?
<jsgotangco> heh
* mdke points at his exam
<jsgotangco> no not that legal crap
<jsgotangco> heh
<mdke> hey i did a commit last night ;)
<jsgotangco> hehe i had too much green tea today
<mdke> made you a http://www.kubuntu.org entity
<mdke> strange it wasn't there already
<mdke> listen i have a couple of questions
<mdke> quite simple
<jsgotangco> sure
<mdke> how do I make a link to another section in the document
<jsgotangco> i think its <xref linkend="id">
<jsgotangco> if its outside, you use <ulink url="foo/c">blah</ulink>
<mdke> sure
* mdke is reading the channel scrollback
<jsgotangco> hehehe that's a really nice thread
<mdke> wow he got a bit of a tough time
<jsgotangco> thats why we need to whip people here
<mdke> hmmm
<jsgotangco> hmmm?
<mdke> no quite the FOSS spirit jsgotangco, whipping people ;)
<jsgotangco> baj
<jsgotangco> bah
<jsgotangco> you just don't want to be whipped
<mdke> true
<jsgotangco> i wonder if our cd has rawrite or something
<jsgotangco> to create a boot disk
<mdke> which cd?
<jsgotangco> hoary
<mdke> ask Kamion
<mdke> there is a guy writing some installation tutorials in the wiki
<mdke> i keep leaving messages saying "work with us, we are already writing such documents" but he doesn't seem to listen
<jsgotangco> yeah it happens
<jsgotangco> some people still dont get the concept of FOSS development
<mdke> well its filed under the docteam pages
<mdke> and i seem to remember that he's posted to the list
<mdke> he's just not using work that has already been done
<mdke> has mako got back to you about your CoC yet?
<abelli> ciao 
<abelli> Kinnison: ding
<mdke> hi abelli 
<jsgotangco> no why i've already signed my CoC
<jsgotangco> did you?
<mdke> i signed it but i think he is quite busy right now
<jsgotangco> oh that means he hasn't replied back to you
<jsgotangco> well im not rushing
* mdke nods
<jsgotangco> what happens next anyway
<mdke> no idea
<mdke> but i'm concerned my signature isn't valid
<mdke> my key is only signed by henrik and his isn't signed by anyone ;)
<mdke> np
<jsgotangco> no your key is supposed to be valid but its untrusted at the moment
<jsgotangco> (i have your key)
<jsgotangco> (and i dont trust you either)
<jsgotangco> hehe
<jsgotangco> just kiddding
<mdke> as i say, only henrik has signed it
<jsgotangco> oh it doesnt matter actually
<jsgotangco> let me refresh your key
<mdke> if I do a --refresh-keys it always times out after 5 people or so :/ weird
<jsgotangco> i just use enigmail
<mdke> if i do em one at a time its ok tho
<jsgotangco> did henrik sign your key already?
<mdke> yes
<jsgotangco> ok let me refresh your key to check
<mdke> but as i say, his isn't signed for some reason
<mdke> wtf is enigmail?
* mdke googles
<mdke> oh that's rather cool
<jsgotangco> yeah its a thunderbird plugin
<mdke> it has a key management interface, sweet
<jsgotangco> it makes things so easy
<mdke> afk
<jsgotangco> oh well happy weekend to you all
<froud> Ouch!!!! http://www.forbes.com/technology/2005/05/26/cz_dl_0526linux.html?partner=rss
<Burgundavia> there is more fud, related
<Burgundavia> let me dig up the link
<Burgundavia> http://www.redherring.com/Article.aspx?a=12185&hed=An+End+to+Free+Linux+Support&sector=Profiles&subsector=Companies
<froud> Burgundavia: I fear there is touble in the brewing
<Burgundavia> nah, is just the usual fud
<Burgundavia> someone needs to point them to git
<froud> NOt when it includes Mc Voy
<Burgundavia> yes
<froud> he is close to the community
<Burgundavia> he looks like he can market himself well
<froud> he knows the business
<froud> many follow him
<froud> if we see a wave of software product sgoing this way, then there is a problem
<froud> the point about innovation is also true
<froud> I hav enot seen much innovation in FOS
<froud> great apps yes
<froud> but at the lower levels of technology there is a need
<Burgundavia> I think that is fud
<Burgundavia> I have seen innovation at all places in FOSS
<Burgundavia> but you usually see is all the messy steps in between
<froud> you think Mc Voy is just talking
<Burgundavia> which is usually hidden by prop. companies, like apple
<froud> I dunno
<froud> Mc Voy doe snot say much unless he has something to say
<Burgundavia> Beagle? F-spot?
<Burgundavia> mcvoy is pissed that he lost his plum candidate
<froud> It would be good to see a community or free sf reaction to this
<Burgundavia> he wanted his cake and to eat it too
<froud> plum candidate?
<froud> what did I miss
<Burgundavia> the linux kernel was fantastic advertising for him
<froud> OK, I c
<Burgundavia> yes, he had to do a bunch of work, but that work that was needed to be done
<froud> so he's been playing tuant all this time?
<Burgundavia> http://www.bitkeeper.com/
<Burgundavia> tell me what you see on that page
<Burgundavia> front and centre
<froud> yeah I know the problem
<Burgundavia> you see a quote from Linux
<Burgundavia> inux
<Burgundavia> linus
<Burgundavia> third time lucky
<froud> so he has been playing truant
<Burgundavia> mcvoy has been a dickhead, to be honest
<froud> but he has made some good points with regard to the business model
<Burgundavia> bah, mostly garbage
<froud> as we have seen RH and SuSE > NLD
<froud> makes you wonder
<Burgundavia> http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=37197
<froud> dont get me wrong I believe strongly in FOSS, but I also see many FOSS companies struggling
<Burgundavia> yes, but there are a great number of prop. software companies struggling as well
<froud> true but they have more revenue
<froud> most of the companies I see are on a shoe string budget
<Burgundavia> most software companies do very badly
<Burgundavia> open source or not
<froud> the only thing that keeps them going is community development
<Burgundavia> is that a bad thing?
<Burgundavia> the community gets the product for free
<froud> no, but you need to put bread on the table
<Burgundavia> and when the company dies, the software survives
<Burgundavia> think of the area of library software
<froud> yes
<Burgundavia> often very much tied to one company
<froud> yeah
<Burgundavia> now, say a company goes under, now libraries (who are perenially short of money) now have to spend a lot of money changing vendors
<Burgundavia> with an oss alternative, they can just go to the next company
<froud> yes, true
<Burgundavia> that is the reason taht Koha exists
<froud> we know that works
<Burgundavia> the company that created it, under contract, gave a shit about the library that they were working for
<Burgundavia> and convinced the libary to oss their product
<Burgundavia> it now has 3 small companies working on it
<froud> yes, the model works in that respect
<froud> but when you are a startup
<froud> you have no customers yet
<froud> innovation without cash can be a problem
<Burgundavia> what better way to get customers?
<froud> sure free beer
<Burgundavia> build a huge buzz
<Burgundavia> think, people fixing your bugs for you
<froud> Linux is a test platform
<froud> software testing is good
<froud> anyway, it will be good to see the response
<Burgundavia> best simply to ignore forbes
<Burgundavia> one voice will not change the fud
<Burgundavia> rather than fight a lost battle, built a better mousetrap, and get them with that
<Burgundavia> I am coming to the conclusion that there is no place for non-open source stuff in the world
<froud> I would not go that far
<mdke> http://www.kofler.cc/ubuntu.html
<Burgundavia> wow
<froud> Hmmm now that is interesting
<froud> I wonder if aw paid him
<mdke> only in german atm
<froud> yeah
<froud> but I wonder why he did it closed doors
<Burgundavia> Basically, my though pattern boils down to this? Why should a company spend its own good money to develop software (like my ex-employer did) when a free alternative is just as good?
<mdke> froud, money?
<froud> mdke: you mean if he had done it in the community he would have no moeny?
<froud> Burgundavia: some software should be closed
<Burgundavia> froud, such as?
<froud> Burgundavia: some software is just to intimate by nature for open dev
<froud> ERP Business Logic
<froud> Even compaire
<froud> the main development is done by paid people
<froud> not much comes from community in the ERP space
<Burgundavia> if you build an engine that companies can plug there own logic into?
<Burgundavia> yes, OSS is only starting to penetrate that sort of stuff
<froud> I think this is because those systems are so monolithic
<Burgundavia> and working on server stuff is boring
<froud> banking systems
<Burgundavia> banking because of security issues?
<froud> well that is an opinion
<Burgundavia> they run destroyers on windows
<froud> Burgundavia: there is a place for closed source
<froud> mdke: you think if he did the book in the community he would hav eno work
<froud> sorry no money
<mdke> froud, dunno
<froud> which begs the question, "How do OSS authors make money?"
<mdke> but its a commercial venture
<mdke> froud, by doing other things :p
<froud> yes, aw must have paid him or he is getting a royalty
<froud> that is the traditional set of rules
<froud> I would like to discover whether or not the new rule set used in FOSS can apply to authoring
<froud> developers and integrators can make money
<froud> the model is easy
<froud> but how about writers
<froud> jjesse: hi
<jjesse> hello froud
<froud> jjesse: I have informed enrico that you will be sending elmo keys
<jjesse> cool thanks :)
<froud> anyone got any business models fo rthe doteam
<froud> docteam
<jjesse> froud gotta run, work emergency
<froud> surely we must be able to develop books in the community under open licenses and make money from it
<froud> Let's take an example
<froud> lets say we decide to write a book and then publish it
<froud> we would charge for the printed version
<froud> the source and html view would be available on line
<froud> do you think we would get sales
<froud> perhaps the best person to speak to is Tim O'Reilly
<froud> hello enrico 
<froud> well, any opinions
<froud> :-)
<froud> I can register the book with an ISBN, that means we can sell it through all regular cannels
<froud> channels
<froud> production I can also take care of
<froud> so how do we make it happen?
<froud> in the community
* froud notices that the channel has just had a brain fart
<mdke> *laughs*
<mdke> sorry i'm working here
<froud> Interesting how we have so many opinions on all sorts of things but when it comes to this we have non :-)
<Burgundavia> hmm
<Burgundavia> for docs, I think you can make money
<Burgundavia> you just need to provide a good service
<mdke> i have no idea
<Burgundavia> like O'Reilly does
<froud> OK, so how do we band togther to protect each others interests
<froud> and how many people are we talking about?
<enrico> froud: hello!
<froud> how would revenue be shared in a way proportionate to the effort
<froud> would we be able to trust one another or would we need a broker?
<froud> to structure a business model that works for us, that is the question.
<froud> He he my books on Python arrived from Amazon today
<froud> finally I can start learning
<froud> Python Programming for the absolute beginner and Learn Python (the mouse book)
<froud> that should be a good combination, right?
<froud> lol Opening sentence, "Writing a book is like giving birth-and I have the stretch marks of the brain to prove it." 
<froud> wow mdke nice patch yesterday dude :-)
<froud> really making progress there
<froud> not bad for a legal bunny
<mdke> froud, haven't actually written much yet
<mdke> but i intend to keep at it
<froud> well it was a god patch
<mdke> ty
<mdke> was the patch to global.ent all ok?
<mdke> let me know if i muck anything up ;)
<froud> as far as I can see
<mdke> cool
<mdke> froud, how do i link to another section in the document?
<froud> create an id attribute on the target and then xref to it
<mdke> ok cool
<froud> what do you want to link to
<mdke> erm
<mdke> not sure yet ;)
<froud> chapter sect1
<mdke> chapter i think
<froud> OK well look in install guide I have a few examples in there
<mdke> ok sure
<mdke> froud, btw did you see http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/InstallationTutorial ?
<froud> yeah I was confused by it. Is it an installation or gui tut
<Burgundavia> it is every it seems
<mdke> well so far its not much
<Burgundavia> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/BeginnerInstallationTutorial
<Burgundavia> well, the plan is for everything
<mdke> yeah he also seems to want to do an upgrade tutorial
<mdke> something which is currently already done in the releasenotes
<froud> I dont understand
<froud> is this an install thing or how to us ethe desktop
<froud> In the top left-hand corner of your screen there are three menus that look like this.
<froud> If you use your mouse to click once on the word "applications", a drop down box will appear. If you click on "applications" a second time the drop down box will disappear. Try doing this now.
<froud> The same thing will happen if you click on "Places" and "System" (but not on the three coloured buttons next to "system", you'll learn what to do with them in a minute).
<froud> The "Applications" is made up of several sub-menus. The two that you will probably be most interested in are "Internet" and "Office". The "Internet" sub-menu has all the programs on your computer which are for the internet. The "Office" sub-menu has all the programs on your computer which are for writing documents. To open a sub-menu, move your mouse's cursor so that it is on top of the sub-menu you wish to open and it will appear to the r
<froud> this is how to work with the gui
<froud> not installation
<mdke> yes
<froud> so why the work is said to be install
* froud is very confused
<mdke> maybe email him?
<froud> I like the tut idea
<Burgundavia> he has good ideas
<froud> but cant see why this is the Installation project
<froud> yes he does
<Burgundavia> we just need to fold it into our project
<froud> yes
<froud> and get him to work in svn?
<froud> I dont know, lets leave it run and see where it leads
<froud> the ideas are good if we get involved we will just throw a spanner in the works
<froud> Burgundavia: from GLUG
<froud> > On Friday, 27 May 2005 15:04, Sean Wheller wrote: 
<froud> > > http://www.forbes.com/technology/2005/05/26/cz_dl_0526linux.html?pa 
<froud> > >rtner=rss 
<froud> > 
<froud> > IMHO, it's a little fact and a lot of opinion. 
<froud> > 
<froud> > McVoy is giving his own opinion, which is probably true enough from 
<froud> > his point of view. And maybe he's still smarting from the split with 
<froud> > the kernel developers. I take his comments with a pinch of salt. 
<froud> > 
<froud> > alan 
<froud> I believe that the rapid advance in the development of git is starting to scare him. It took him 5 years to develop Bitkeeper to the level it is currently in (with the help of Linus, for the initial design). Now Linus is developing an alternative in less that three months, which is almost at the level of Bitkeeper. With some improvements.....
<Burgundavia> wow http://www.skolelinux.org/portal/user_experience/test_schools/test_schools_map
<Burgundavia> git is not where bitkeeper is 
<Burgundavia> git is for development of the linux kernel
<Burgundavia> and not much else
<Burgundavia> but at least now everything is free, so quilt and git can work better together
<venda> good night
<mdke> night venda 
<mdke> great work on the guide
#ubuntu-doc 2005-06-04
<mdke> sorry
<mpt> I'd agree with this bit though
<mpt> ""One problem with the services model is that it is based on the idea that you are giving customers crap--because if you give them software that works, what is the point of service?"
<mpt> That's why help keeps sucking, for example.
<froud> African Greetings
<robitaille> and in return, some Canadian greetings
<froud> hello robitaille , you're new here. Please to meet you :-)
<robitaille> yeah; I have been hanging around here in the background from time to time.
<froud> we have quite a few Canadians here
<froud> so, are you new to Linux or an old hand?
<robitaille> actually live in the same town than Corey Burger.  Still haven't met him yet in real life.
<froud> programmer or net admin or writer?
<froud> that's cause corey never leaves his computer
<froud> :-)
<robitaille> Been using Linux since late 1990s.  Formally working as a  system admin...now doing it in the evening while I code in Fortran during the day.
<froud> Oh cool, you ever considered helping out on the docs
<robitaille> I did.  I did review the hardware database application manual for you just before Hoary was released.   And played with the xhtml strict version of ubuntuguide.org a couple of weeks ago when someone wanted to convert it to docbook
<froud> Oh yes, great, now I remember. Thanks for that :-)
<froud> well I have ported ubuntuguide.org into docbook so it is now in svn
<froud> still needs some work
<froud> the port is mostly a manual thing
<robitaille> I have been doing all sort of little things around  Ubuntu for the last few months;   I'll probably try to help when some of the wiki gets converted using the template you probided the other day
<robitaille> s/probided/provided/
<froud> Great, that would be a good help
<froud> Your a sysadmin, so how about writing for the Admin Guide?
<froud> The outline is done
<froud> of cours eyou are free to change the outline
<robitaille> I could take a look at it at one point;  I'm not that great of  a writer in the first place, and english isn't my first language. But besides that, I'm sure I could help a bit.
<froud> we dont expect shakespear
<froud> b'side others will edit and reveiw
<froud> if you see a section you would like to do or feel there is something on the wiki you can port, insert to one of the existing docs are create a new doc, just go for it
<froud> if the docbook is problematic, we will help you out with that
<robitaille> is the outline in the svn?
<froud> yes
<froud> you can find it under https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/trunk/gnome/adminguide/C
<robitaille> thanks. got it
<froud> so you know how to svn then, that's good
<robitaille> yes; thanks for the great wiki pages for the doc group.  I have been reading a little bit about docbook; I have to write some small doc at work, and I'l probably try to to it in that format as a learning experience.
<robitaille> I have done html/xhtml in the past, so it's not that foreign in concept 
<froud> OK, well if you need help just give me a shout
<mdke> morning all
<mdke> what do you guys think about deleting pages without much material on the wiki? I guess we're going to be deleting quite a few pages during the transition... i was looking at http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/QTThemeWithoutKDE
<jiyuu0> finally i removed marillat
<Kinnison> Heh
<jiyuu0> and added backports in the main sources.list
<Burgundavia> salut Kinnison 
<jiyuu0> the only thing that will use the marillat is acroread and transcode 
<jiyuu0> if only backports has it... then can 100% marillat free :)
<mdke> *grins*
<mdke> jiyuu0, now all you have to do is remove backports :p
<jiyuu0> remove backports?
<jiyuu0> i just added it
<jiyuu0> quite some changes made
<jiyuu0> but it's worth it
<jiyuu0> java, azureus, nvu... more updates
<mdke> updates are detested by the ubuntu developers
<mdke> they don't pay any attention to packaging policy
<mdke> but most users want them i suppose
<jiyuu0> ic
<jiyuu0> but at least it's better than marillat
<jiyuu0> in the sense... backports is meant for ubuntu
<mdke> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/UbuntuBackports
<mdke> my personal reason for disliking the backport project is that it encourages the "I must have the latest version of everything" attitude, without explaining that this compromising stability
<mdke> but thats IMO
<jiyuu0> well... take e.g. firefox 1.0.4
<jiyuu0> it's considered to be stable and official
<jiyuu0> and why is ubuntu devel not updating
<jiyuu0> i mean it fixes security and stuff
<venda> jiyuu0: I am just about to make a big commit on this thing will you pleas eprovide patch to align your changes
<jiyuu0> venda, what patch?
<jiyuu0> i'm not the developer of backports
<mdke> jiyuu0, he means the guide
<mdke> jiyuu0, do you seriously think that the ubuntu developers don't update security problems?
<mdke> jiyuu0, the firefox fixes are included in the Ubuntu security updates
<mdke> jiyuu0, ALL security issues are fixed
<jiyuu0> ok :)
<jiyuu0> is there going to be a conflict with backports?
<mdke> the version name does not change because they are patched
<venda> jiyuu0: yes, the ubuntu guide. can you please add any changes you have made to the docbook xml version in svn. Thanks
<mdke> jiyuu0, yes there is a conflict. backports are safe if properly pinned I believe
<jiyuu0> ok. just spent one whole day on ubuntuguide
<venda> so did I
<jiyuu0> now waiting for the add-on-cd to be uploaded
<venda> see commit list
* jiyuu0 got mail bomb again...
<venda> oh that's handy
<venda> jiyuu0: will you do the update?
<venda> jiyuu0: have you sent your public pgp key to elmo yet?
<jiyuu0> not yet...
<jiyuu0> i'll look into it... but i need instructions
<jiyuu0> subversion and stuff
<jiyuu0> ok.. gotta crash... nearly 4am
<jiyuu0> c'ya tomorrow
<venda> you have a working copy still
<venda> just svn update
<venda> make updates to FAQGuide
<venda> make diff and send us the diff
<jiyuu0> ok... i'll workn on the svn from 3.0 onwards
<venda> Huh?
<jiyuu0> UbuntuGuide 3.0 just release today
<venda> Ok what about the changes you have made now, can you do the changes in svn?
<jiyuu0> major change -> removed marillat and use backports (as lot requested)
<venda> please send me diff between your html files
<venda> mdke: to save the translators major work
<venda> mdke: I wonder if we can create a pot of en version
<venda> and copy paste from nn versions into po files
<mdke> of what?
<venda> then submit these to rosetta
<venda> ubuntuguide.org (FAQGuide)
<mdke> i spent like a week trying to get a pot out of it, no go
<venda> no no
<venda> I mean, from the xml version
<venda> once we have it finsihed we can create POT
<mdke> that is the plan for breezy yeah
<venda> then create po files
<jiyuu0> first time using diff
<venda> can copy paste the strings from nn HTML files into respective po files
<jiyuu0> diff file1 file2?
<mdke> jiyuu0, diff file1 file2 > file.diff i think
<venda> diff foo1 foo2 > foo3
<venda> mail foo3 to list
<venda> if you can do this I will upgrade xml in svn to 3.0
<jiyuu0> the output not easy to read
<jiyuu0> what version is the svn?
<venda> svn 1.0
<venda> I can read diff well
<venda> let me take care of it
<venda> or send me new HTML 3.0 and I will diff it for you
<venda> sean@inwords.co.za
<jiyuu0> the last 2.09 is here
<jiyuu0> http://frankandjacq.com/ubuntuguide/5.04/index.html
<jiyuu0> the new 3.00 is
<jiyuu0> http://ubuntuguide.org/index.html
<venda> OK
<venda> got it
<jiyuu0> btw, just curious what will the svn of the guide turn to?
<mdke> jiyuu0, it can turn into anything
<mdke> yelp, pdf, html
<jiyuu0> i don't really like yelp
<venda> what format do you want?
<mdke> if it is made official it can go on the Ubuntu website
<venda> I can make PDF
<venda> or X/HTML if it is better for you
<jiyuu0> can u send me a sample of PDF
<jiyuu0> jiyuu0@gmail.com
<jiyuu0> just curious how it will look like
<venda> yes, once we have version in svn complete
<mdke> the great thing is that it can be published in many ways
<venda> jiyuu0: we would also like to profile this doc for kubuntu
<jiyuu0> but i'm still going to maintain ubuntuguide as it is right?
<mdke> and therefore can go in the Ubuntu local system, and on the website, and on the livecd etc
<jiyuu0> as it suites my preference
<venda> we would like to take Judos
<mdke> jiyuu0, the point of putting it in svn is that it would be a community project
<venda> if you want to maintain ubuntuguide.org you can
* mdke nods
<venda> but we cannot say what will happen to the version in svn
<venda> we expect people in the community to develop it
* jiyuu0 nods
<mdke> if it will go on the ubuntu website and on the ubuntu local system, it will have to be modified fairly heavily
<venda> while I was marking it up as docbook I got some ideas that I think will improve it
<venda> I am sure others will do the same
<jiyuu0> what ideas?
<mdke> jiyuu0, but that doesn't stop you from developing the guide on your website as you wish
<venda> :-) JOin us and let's share them dude
<jiyuu0> so SVN will be more detailed
<mdke> not necessarily
<jiyuu0> the ubuntuguide.org will still maintain in it's point form (for easier reference)
<venda> its a faq, so detail is not wanted
<mdke> jiyuu0, the point form is good
<venda> the version in svn is a question and answer format
<venda> Q A
<venda> qanda
<mdke> does it validate?
<venda> not yet
<venda> working on it
<venda> jiyuu0: here is a small example
<venda> <qandaentry>
<venda>                 <question>
<mdke> yes i've seen how hard you are working on it
<venda>                     <para>Configuring network interfaces... (taking too long to load)</para>
<venda>                 </question>
<venda>                 <answer>
<venda>                     <orderedlist>
<venda>                         <listitem>
<venda>                             <para>Read <xref linkend="temporaryskipboot-upservices"/>
<venda>                             </para>
<venda>                         </listitem>
<venda>                     </orderedlist>
<venda>                 </answer>
<venda>             </qandaentry>
<venda> yeah, my next step is to resolve the xref
<venda> mdke: we want to bring in KUDOS to this guide
<mdke> cool
<venda> that way we will have a book for ubuntu and a book for kubuntu
<mdke> that would be excellent
<venda> but KUDOS is large
<venda> larger than ubuntuguide.org :-(
<venda> I hope he has docbook src already
<mdke> unlikely
<venda> yeah
<mdke> is it significantly different to jerome's document?
<venda> some stuff is duplicated
<venda> its a faq
<venda> jerome is doing quickguide
<jiyuu0> kudus is like a book
<jiyuu0> lot's of explanations and stuff
<mdke> i c
<jiyuu0> it's good in a way i's bad
<mdke> maybe those can be cut out if it is converted to a faqguide
<venda> yes, it has pros and cons
<mdke> and inserted into a userguide
<venda> we need to normalize it
<mdke> ok i'm gonna hook up to the userguide and see if I can do somemore work on it
<mdke> see ya later
<jiyuu0> ok... i've really gotta crash
<venda> jiyuu0: night
<mdke> night jiyuu0 
<mdke> thanks
<jiyuu0> night :)
<mkde> argh
<mkde> venda!!
<mkde> the userguide doesn't open anymore.
<mkde> have you removed entities?
<mkde> or added some invalidly
<mkde> pasting you the errors
<mkde> froud_, venda ?
<_venda> sorry crash mdke paste again
<mkde> just do ./validate.sh on the userguide
<mkde> :/
<mkde> entities are missing
<venda> OK I will resolve them
<mkde> ty
<mkde> how come it happened?
<venda> I may have merged and missed something :-)
<mkde> ok np
<mkde> we need a "no removing entities without grepping around for them first" rule tho :p
<venda> no its not a merge problem I see the problem now
<venda> gimme a sec
<mkde> awesome
<mkde> what was it
<venda> I forgot a whitespace and also duplicated an entity
<mkde> is that all?
<mkde> gosh
<mkde> so all the remaining entities weren't found?
<venda> svn up
<venda> try it now
<mkde> ok thanks
<mkde> bingo
<mkde> works
<venda> yes, an invalid entity is a blocker
<venda> he he
<mkde> its always the damn typos
<venda> yeah
<mkde> i hate them
<venda> that's programming for you ;-)
<mkde> today it was a - instead of a = that mucked me up
<mkde> still here?
<venda> yep
<mkde> can i check that xref with ya
<mkde> its a chapter
<venda> which xref
<venda> in faq
<mkde> you remember i asked you how to do it
<mkde> i've sort of forgotten
<venda> :-( yes
<mkde> <xref something="id"></xref>
<venda> oh
<venda> xref linkend="target-id"
<mkde> awesome
<venda> you can also bring in text
<venda> like this
<mkde> so how is this:
<venda> xref linkend="target-id" endterm="title-target-id"
<mkde> <para>First and foremost you must have a working connection to the internet. To find out how to set this up, see <xref linkend="systemconfiguration-internet">this section</xref>
<mkde> hmm
<venda> no
<mkde> :/
<venda> <xref linkend="systemconfiguration-internet"/>
<mkde> ok
<mkde> so i just need to insert the /?
<venda> this will create the text for you
<venda> the id is in the same file right?
<mkde> yes
<venda> ok xref is an open tag
<venda> when the proc does its work the xsl will do the rest
<venda> it will say, see the Chapter "Title of Chapter"
<mkde> so i can't define the text that is linked
<mkde> ok
<venda> or it will say, see the section "Title of Chapter"
<mkde> ok so:
<mkde> To find out how to set this up, see the section <xref linkend="systemconfiguration-internet"/>
<venda> it will do the words for you
<venda> To find out how to set this up, see <xref linkend="systemconfiguration-internet"/>
<venda> this will become
<venda> To find out how to set this up, see the section <xref linkend="systemconfiguration-internet"/>
<mkde> ok
<mkde> clever
<mkde> whats the policy on linking to other documents?
<venda> To find out how to set this up, see the section $target-text
<venda> we don't yet support olink
<venda> I hope to add this support before 5.10
<mkde> i guess the problem is that they would be published in different places, not just yelp, like on the website, so linking between documents is not easy
<venda> but not impossible ;-)
<mkde> that would be supercool
<mkde> gnome help seems to be back at 2.6 on my system
<mkde> GNOME 2.6 Desktop System Administration Guide
<venda> dunno I am on Kubuntu right now
<mkde> that sucks balls
<mkde> maybe gnome 2.10 hasn't got a help yet
<Burgundavia> Sun also just stopped supporting some gnome docs
<Burgundavia> so the gnome doc team is in a real mess
<venda> yeah I saw that
<mkde> ic
<mkde> how would I link to the synaptic help?
<venda> just dont
<venda> interlinking does not work without olinks
<mkde> ?
<mkde> but the whole userguide has links to other help docs
<mkde> like this:
<mkde> <ulink type="help" url="ghelp:sound-juicer"
<mkde>                         >here</ulink>
<venda> yeah
<mkde> does that not work?
<venda> dont use ghelp
<mkde> how come?
<venda> it should not be used
<mkde> ,,,
<venda> ties us in to yelp
<mkde> ah
<venda> remain neutral
<mkde> so what should I do just copy all those documents?
<venda> no
<mkde> remove all the:
<venda> if the doc is online use it
<mkde>                 <para> A more thorough explanation of the ins and outs of <application>Sound
<mkde>                     Juicer</application> can be found <ulink type="help" url="ghelp:sound-juicer"
<mkde>                         >here</ulink>. </para>
<mkde> there will be lots to remove
<venda> yes, it was a problem
<mkde> especially because the userguide attempts to do an overview
<mkde> it is useful to refer a user to a more detailed doc
<venda> the user guide need to explain in itself
<venda> arh perhaps I can call you
<venda> msg your number to me
<mkde> i'll call i have a cheap thing
<mkde> whats the land line again
<venda> +27 11 678 4496
<mkde> gimme a mo
<mkde> cheap thing is slow tonight, everyone is calling ;)
<mkde> ok
<mkde> ring ring
<venda> no ring
<mkde> stupid thing
<mkde> give it time
<venda> the number is right
* mkde nods
<mkde> ok
<mkde> trying again
<mkde> ring ring?
<venda> no ring ring
<mkde> :/
<venda> cheap thing no work
<venda> me call you
<venda> what number
<mkde> damn
<mkde> +44 207 476 3259
<mkde> perhaps the lines are clogged this evening
<venda> ring ring
<mkde> :)
#ubuntu-doc 2005-06-05
<venda> good night
<venda> c ya in the morn
<mkde> night froud_ 
<mdke> night all
<mdke> ooh dev fight
<Burgundavia> indeed
<Burgundavia> mdke, what started it?
<mdke> nothing
<mdke> must have been in private
<mdke> you didn't miss a line Burgundavia 
<mdke> looks like one has been criticising the others method of working, and the other took exception
<Burgundavia> geez
<mdke> :/
<Burgundavia> lol
<Burgundavia> is almost funny, if it was not so sad
<mdke> sad
<mdke> that kid is good isn't he?
<mdke> ah he'll chalk it up to experience
<Burgundavia> which kid? trulux?
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> ok bed now
<mdke> nite
<jiyuu0> Fresh from oven...
<jiyuu0> New Release: UbuntuGuide Add-On-CD (27th May 2005)
<jiyuu0> http://ubuntuguide.org/add-on-cd
<jiyuu0> Changes:
<jiyuu0> http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=191197&postcount=46
<venda> African Greetings
<Burgundavia> salut
<venda> morn Burgundavia how's it going?
<Burgundavia> not bad
<Burgundavia> about to go to sleep
<Burgundavia> need to be up in 6 hours
<venda> night night, don't let the bed bugs bite :-)
<mdke> morning all
<mdke> jiyuu0, you're stopping the Add on cd?
<venda> morn
<mdke> good plan
<venda> +1
<mdke> hey venda 
* venda wonders where jerome is?
<mdke> beh its the weekend
<mdke> he's probably on the beach somewhere
<venda> |zzzzz: you a slug member?
<venda> mdke: FAQ Guide is now valid and well-formed
<mdke> venda, brilliant work
* mdke opens in yelp
<venda> mdke: just aligning with 3.0 and then I must check those parts that are currently commented
<mdke> yelp doesn't like it...
<venda> no yelp does not support qanda set
<mdke> oh right
<mdke> how can i view it?
<venda> transform it to HTML
<venda> with xsltproc
* venda thinks he should develop a gui frontend to xsltproc
<mdke> i need a stylesheet right?
<venda> yes
<mdke> Be RiGhT bAcK phone
<mdke> venda, so you are ruling out yelp definitively for the next release?
<venda> yes, GNOME docs will be in Yelp. Ubuntu-Docs under a browser
<venda> we will ship HTML
<mdke> cool
<mdke> what browser?
<venda> any browser
<venda> now here is the trick
<venda> yelp can still view HTML
<venda> so
<mdke> ok
<venda> if the developers wnat to include ubuntu-docs in yelp they can, but not as xml
<mdke> so how do I specify a stylesheet to do that conversion
<venda> this way we do not have to bother ourselves will the problems of yelp and khelpcenter
<venda> Oh right
<mdke> good
<venda> you have docbook xsl installed
<mdke> *  app-text/docbook-xsl-stylesheets
<mdke>       Latest version available: 1.66.1
<mdke>       Latest version installed: 1.66.1
<venda> here is how xslt proc for html works
<venda> xsltproc  \
<venda>     --output myfile.html  \
<venda>     --stringparam use.extensions 0  \
<venda>     docbook-xsl/html/docbook.xsl  \
<venda>     myfile.xml
<mdke> ok
* mdke tries
<venda> you can leave the --stringparam
<mdke> ok it is the penultimate line i have issues with
<mdke> is that an address?
<mdke> come back!
<mdke> wb froud_ 
<mdke> ok it is working
<mdke> this is the command i used
<mdke> matt@eustathios C $ xsltproc --output faqguide.html --stringparam use.extensions 0 /usr/share/sgml/docbook/xsl-stylesheets-1.66.1/html/docbook.xsl faqguide.xml
<mdke> it opens nice in yelp
<venda> cool that will also work
<venda> just depends on where your stylesheets are installed
<mdke> there was an xhtml stylesheet there too
<mdke> is that better?
<venda> sames as html, just the format is diff
<venda> you also have javahelp etc
<venda> there are a number of stylesheets
<venda> for different formats
<mdke> looks great!
<mdke> great work man
<venda> still needs work and css
<mdke> yeah ubuntu css would be nice
<mdke> i prefer the table of contents on ubuntuguide.org
<mdke> all sections in there
<mdke> rather than just chapters
<mdke> it can be searched with the naked eye more easily ;)
<venda> sure we can generate custom tocs
<venda> the current output is the default
<mdke> ok i c
<mdke> the repositories section has got to be changed dramatically :)
<venda> that's the power of docbook
<mdke> ok cool
<venda> see the src, some stuff is still commented
<mdke> well great work
<venda> I am just aligning it with 3.0 now
<mdke> i have to get moving and do some of my exams
<venda> chow
<mdke> ok bye
<froud> woof
<froud_> woof
* froud_ wonders why he shows twice
<froud> jiyuu0: version 3.0 of ubuntuguide.org is now in svn. The document is now valid and well-formed, I still have a few teaks to make, but in general it is open for work.
#ubuntu-doc 2006-05-29
<Bilange> hey guys, are you responsible for the "GreatFeaturesofUbuntu" wiki page by any chance?
<mdke> Bilange: yes, we wrote it, although the flash tour has since been put on hold for this release
<Bilange> okay, in other words, I guess its too late to send suggestions about this, right?
<mdke> Bilange: if you send suggestions, they will get taken into account if it gets produced for edgy
<Bilange> okay :) so, where can I send them?
<mdke> Bilange: bottom of the page?
<Bilange> ah, fine. I thought that if there was no "discussion" section or a /talk subpage, well... discussions would be sent elsewhere
<mdke> Bilange: you can add either :) a discussion section sounds good
<ompaul> is there a category documentation for IRC ?
<mdke> ompaul: what do you mean?
<ompaul> is there an IRC directory 
<ompaul> I have this kind of thing and want to start a serious cull of duplication https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRCResourcePage 
<mdke> ompaul: do you mean "is there a category irc"?
<ompaul> mdke, I suppose I do
<mdke> doesn't seem to be
<mdke> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CategoryCategory
<ompaul> thanks
<ompaul> gotcha
<ompaul> I'll come back next year :)
<mdke> a CategoryIRC might not be a bad idea actually
<ompaul> yeap, I had misunderstood what Category Documentation was, so I have to change the pages off that to cleanup
<mdke> yeah, don't add CategoryDocumentation to something that isn't documentation
<mdke> otherwise it will get moved to the new wiki :)
<ompaul> it is documentation but it needs a "whole lotta love" 
<mdke> hang on ompaul 
<mdke> ompaul: what page are you referring to?
<ompaul> mdke, this and anything that it links to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRCResourcePage
<mdke> ompaul: right. Just to be clear, the move of wiki documentation is _ALL_ documentation, regardless of quality. So the roughest page is going, and the best. When deciding what to tag with CategoryDocumentation, the question is: is this a help document, or is it a community document? If the former, please tag it with CategoryDocumentation
<ompaul> and we can have more than one category 
<ompaul> sorry that is a question, too tired to rephase it
<mdke> ompaul: yes
<mdke> I'm not sure which of the two things that page is
<ompaul> what it wants to be is a definitive list of things you should look at if you want to know *all* about irc
<mdke> yeah, which is partly a community thing
<ompaul> more like an informed index of the resources you can read about, then the others should stop doing two jobs and it should get nice and neat 
<mdke> so, you think it should be on the help wiki or the community wiki?
<ompaul> it is help, as I see it, you usually only want irc if you want to access the irc community for help, direction or participation
<mdke> ok, fine by me. Tag it up, and it'll get moved
<ompaul> thanks
<Burgundavia> DBO, are you Jason Smith?
<mdke> yeah, he is
<DBO> only slightly
<DBO> yes I know, i been doing lots of editing
<DBO> trying to get KDE working right (KDE is hard to get working with Xgl)
<Burgundavia> DBO, on telling people to install, plesae don't use apt-get, simply tell people which packages to install
<DBO> Burgundavia, oh that was you who changed that?
<DBO> hehehe, ok...
<Burgundavia> yep
<DBO> I was like "who removed my beautiful cut and paste commands?"
<Burgundavia> I also need to clean up the whole sources.list stuff, but I will do that now
<DBO> hmmm?
<DBO> ok, just dont break anything
<DBO> it works with GNOME and Im trying to get it working with KDE
<Burgundavia> no, I won't
<Burgundavia> merely rewording what you already have there
<DBO> Burgundavia, on thats perfectly ok
<Burgundavia> bugger, ompaul left
<DBO> why cant I use apt-get btw?
<Burgundavia> because they can use other ways
<Burgundavia> aptitiude, synaptic, etc.
<DBO> Burgundavia, yes... but cut and paste...
<Burgundavia> DBO, cut and paste is lovely but you are outvoted :)
<mdke> haha
<DBO> argh, ok, I am half way through birddogging this KDE thing and I gotta run
<DBO> this is crap
<Burgundavia> yes, KDE is crap :)
<DBO> argh, I dont think his GLX is loading... and this is not good
* philipacamaniac pings mdke
* philipacamaniac pings Burgundavia instead
<philipacamaniac> hmm
<mdke> philipacamaniac: mm?
<philipacamaniac> I'm looking for more info on the wiki CategoryDocumentation move to help.ubuntu.com
<mdke> philipacamaniac: sure. What's on your mind?
<philipacamaniac> mdke: once everything is moved over, will there be mechanisms for sorting articles by Ubuntu version?
<mdke> philipacamaniac: everything will basically be the same as it is now. We can talk about that, but we wanted to take things one step at a time
<philipacamaniac> mdke: okay, talking about it, there are far too many "Hoary" or "Breezy" specific articles, and others provide methods for several versions
<mdke> i agree, we need to sort that out
<mdke> we can think about it after the move
<philipacamaniac> mdke: agreed, I can wait :) , but there is one more - translations
<mdke> shoot
<philipacamaniac> heh
<mdke> i mean, go ahead
<philipacamaniac> oh
<philipacamaniac> heh
<philipacamaniac> moin doesn't seem to have many translation-oriented features. I see that you can change the default language in preferences. but where is the process for translating articles?
<mdke> you take an article, translate it, and paste it in another page
<mdke> we generally prefer translation to go on on a different wiki
<mdke> language specific wikis are better
<philipacamaniac> mdke: agreed, but do you only do English documentation at help.ubuntu.com?
<mdke> philipacamaniac: on the wiki, it is mostly English, but some people put other languages there, we can't stop them
<mdke> as for the static pages, for 6.06 we are making translations available too, but languages which have their own sites should host their own, if possible
<mdke> it's just easier for users to find things. If you're french, you go to ubuntu-fr.org, etc
<mdke> i have to sleep
<mdke> cya later
<philipacamaniac> adios
<crimsun> I wonder if it's possible to merge/mark duplicate threads on the forum
<LaserJock> crimsun: delete and lock too? ;-)
<crimsun> LaserJock: just wondering (unlikely), since I'm about to venture into the forums and triage sound-related bugs
<ghee22> crimsun: on google groups or digg.com whenever create a topic, it searches for related topics already in existance based on key words.. perhaps this prevent dupes?
<crimsun> ghee22: no, I'm looking more for functionality like in Debian's BTS or Malone where we can merge duplicate reports
<crimsun> probably a forum admin's job, though
<Madpilot> hi all
<Burgundavia> hey Madpilot 
<Madpilot> hi Burgundavia 
<Burgundavia> hmm, laying out text in Inkscape sucks
<Burgundavia> too bad scribus has a terrible UI
<Madpilot> for laying out text, it's got a better UI than Inkscape, evidently ;)
<Burgundavia> yes, scribus needs a gtk update
<Madpilot> um, it's a KDE app... and the scribus devs have been known to get irritated at "Scribus needs a GTK port" trolls on the scribus ML
<Burgundavia> actually, it is a QT app, not a KDE one
<Burgundavia> just planning out a "you just Ubuntu" page
<Madpilot> a what?
<Burgundavia> a help page with common questions
<Burgundavia> designed to be handed out for people who have just received an Ubuntu computer
<Madpilot> nifty.
<LaserJock> great, that's just what we need, another FAQ help page ;-)
<Burgundavia> this is designed for print
<Burgundavia> a very different beast
<Madpilot> we need more dead-tree products
<Burgundavia> and no, it is designed to cover the very basics
<Madpilot> "That is not a cup holder"
<LaserJock> kinda like ESA, but maybe more Q&A?
<Burgundavia> currently I only have four topics on it: windows/ubuntu app names, how to install, start menu/app menu and audio video issues
<Burgundavia> then a "how do I get more help"
<Burgundavia> that seem right for the biggest first four issues?
<Madpilot> you could do pages of Windows->Ubuntu equivilent apps, I'd think
<Burgundavia> yep, this is just 5 or 6 big ones
<Burgundavia> outlook, IE, MS office
<Madpilot> gaim?
* dsas wonders just how many people actually use outlook, over say, hotmail, yahoo and gmail.
<Burgundavia> quite a few
<Madpilot> Outlook Express is probably the most common
<LaserJock> I use thunderbird right now but I used to use Outlook Express and most of my family (linux illiterate) do too
<Madpilot> Virusinstall Express ;)
<LaserJock> I thought that was IE
<dsas> I know of two people who use a real mail client (got them both to use thunderbird), I need to know more geeks.
<Burgundavia> here is the breakdown, afaik
<Burgundavia> students: hotmail
<Burgundavia> old people: outlook
<Madpilot> geeks: gmail
<Burgundavia> yep, but I am exluding them, because they are a known quantity
<LaserJock> bah, real geeks have their own mail server and use mutt ;-)
* LaserJock is not a geek apparently, although he does use mutt sometimes
<dsas> Maybe my problem is not knowing old people then ;), that and ISPs provide webmail which satisfies the two email using old people I know.
* robitaille uses both gmail and mutt.... I guess I'm really a geek...
<Madpilot> robitaille, bonus geek points if you manage to combine the two somehow ;)
<LaserJock> I do that too
<LaserJock> gmail is where my @ubuntu.com goes and all the MLs get procmail+mutt/thunderbird
<robitaille> Madpilot:  it's easy to do via pop.  But I prefer the gmail web interface for my home emails since I move between various computers.  But at work I use mutt for my work emails
<jbailey> Hi!  A couple quick thoughts:
<jbailey>  * help.ubuntu.com doesn't seem to have a search option.  I wonder if it's worth putting a link to google at least or something?
<jbailey>  * Part of the job of the support folks that we've hired is to help write knowledgebase articles based on actual support cases that we get.
<jbailey> For this, I'm not sure the best way to integrate this into existing documentation efforts.  Right now they've posted them to the wiki, but I'd like to actually have a formal knowledgebaseish thing.
<jbailey> I wrote a spec a while ago for how this could look in launchpad.
<jsgotangco> hi guys
<jbailey> Heya Jerome.
<jsgotangco> did yelp just die?
<dsas_> jsgotangco: I don't have any toc
<jsgotangco> right
<dsas_> hmm, I just upgraded scrollkeeper and ubuntu-docs I think.
<jsgotangco> yeah
<dsas_> unterminated entity error with /usr/share/yelp/info.xml according to stderr can't see what it is though
<jbailey> For those types of errors, I usually open it with firefox.
<dsas_> actually line 32 looks odd, but I have no idea.
<jbailey> It tends to put a helpful red mark at the broken spot.
<dsas_> hmm, firefox has no complaints. 
<jsgotangco> it is probably the scrollkeeper db not being updated durign the actual update
<jsgotangco> sometimes it happens
<mhz> hi doc people
<mdke> jbailey: wiki sounds like a good start. Is everything tagged with CategoryDocumentation?
<jbailey> mdke: Pretty unlikely so far.
<jbailey> mdke: I'll ask them about it later.
<mhz> I am starting to translate some Edubuntu pages from wiki. highvoltage has already mentioned DocTeam will have another Moin instance for doc only. Good idea, considering the current number of wiki pages.
<mdke> jbailey: when the documentation moves wikis, only stuff tagged with CategoryDocumentation gets moved
<jbailey> Ah, okay.
<jbailey> So the question for me is how to work with the knowledgebase and the docteam.
<jbailey> I'd ideally like all the knowledgebase articles to conform to a style, which means an editor.
<mhz> So, I was wondering, should I keep my translations under my wiki homepage in the mean time? Also, is there a due date for such new instance?
<jbailey> I also don't know how likely community contributors are to be.
<mdke> jbailey: a human editor you mean?
<jbailey> mdke: Yeah.
<mdke> right, sounds cool
<mdke> jbailey: and you're not completely happy with using the wiki?
<jbailey> mdke: wikis make it very hard to enforce approval through an editor.
<mhz> jbailey: moin 1.5.x includes a wysiwyg editor
<jbailey> I also have some dreams about making annotations specific to releases in case things change over time.
* mhz is not insisting in upgrading to 1.5...sorry.../me slaps himself
<mdke> mhz: he's not talking about that sort of editor
<jbailey> And then the dream of making the core knowledge available to derivatives or other distributions, and having distro-specific stuff be all annotations.
<mdke> jbailey: so the new wiki will have access control, that can enforce approval
<jbailey> mdke: That would solve my immediate concern.
<mdke> jbailey: just like the website you can have pages which are invisible except to the relevant group
<mdke> then when it's approved, you can make it visible
<jbailey> Especially if I could say, make https://docs.ubuntu.com/knowledgebase/FOO all approve-on-write.
<mdke> jbailey: is this not something that would integrate well with existing wiki documentation? you'd want a separate section?
<mhz> mdke: so, keep translated pages under my wiki homepage in wiki.edubuntu.org, in tecnocimiento.cl, or in ubuntu-cl.org wiki?
<jbailey> I don't know that it would integrate well or not.
<mdke> mhz: translations generally work better on a specific language website, so I'd suggest ubuntu-cl
<jbailey> When I think of a knowledgebase, I think of a particular format of: 1) Reduced Question. 2) Recipe answer.
<jbailey> And so having the style particularily reflect that.
<mdke> i think it can integrate
<jbailey> The rest of our documentation doesn't seem to be targetted at that, but I'm not saying no to anything here. =)
<mdke> i like the idea of everything being structured by subject matter, obviously style can vary
<jbailey> If you're familiar with the old faq-o-matic systems, it's the type of thing I'm thinking of.
<jbailey> So eventually, we'd need categories, etc.
<mdke> I'm not familiar with those systems
<jbailey> It was wiki style, where people could post questions which would get classified.
<jbailey> The answers were edittable.
<jbailey> It's editting intensive, though.
<jbailey> And they never tended to get high quality like Novell's Technical Information Documents, or Microsoft's Technet.
<mdke> what always concerns me is that the documentation retains an obviously accessible structure, I have an allergy to a documentation resource which is structured by style rather than subject matter. So when I see a site which has "Howtos", "knowledgebase", and "FAQs", I know that I won't know where to start looking
<mdke> so I always try and push for integrating different styles of documentation 
<jbailey> Yeah.
<mdke> jbailey: have you got some examples already we can look at?
<jbailey> I haven't thought this through enough beyond the fact that technet and Novell's TIDs are really useful.
<jbailey> Of Ubuntu ones?  No.  I know Kurt's written a couple, but I haven't looked at them.
<jbailey> (and don't know which ones they are)
<jbailey> And we havne't talked about style or anything.
<mdke> ok. Certainly try and get them tagged with CategoryDocumentation asap if you think they should be moved with the documentation to the new wiki
<mdke> I'm hoping that we can do the move soon
<mdke> then we can talk about if and how they can be integrated and so on
<mdke> jbailey: as for the search, we didn't have time to work on that, hopefully we can get one in there eventually.
<jbailey> Sure.  That's why I figured maybe an iframe or one of those forms that just takes you to google.
<jbailey> I used to know how to cook those up, but it's been a couple years since I've done it.
<mdke> yeah, it's probably not hard
<mdke> but we'd have to add it to all the html docs which are generated from xml
<jbailey> Nah, just the front page.
<mhz> highvoltage: oh, one other thing regarding drupal site, "Related Projects" menu should have Xubuntu too, or not?
<mhz> ooops
<mhz> sorry, wrong tab channel :)
#ubuntu-doc 2006-05-30
* mdke curses the day that the words "component" and "channel" were born
* Burgwork thinks up rude ways one could "channel" someones "component"
<mdke> i don't want to go to sleep now
<mdke> in case I meet a "channel"
<mdke> it must look a bit like a heffalump
* mdke tries counting repositories
<Burgwork> I wish gaim could group people with multiple accounts
<mdke> main... restricted... universe... *thud*
<mdke> night
<jsgotangco> mdke: why reject it when you can at least commit for the next release? (after all trunk is always wip)
<mdke> because I hope that for the next release we will have a sane software properties UI
<jsgotangco> what would be your fallback if it doesn't?
<mdke> if what doesn't?
<jsgotangco> doesn't change
<mdke> well, then if we're shipping the desktop guide, then we can rewrite it appropriately
<jsgotangco> your call sir ;)
<mdke> meh
<mdke> good night
<poningru> and good luck
<robotgeek> hmm, lot of furor over software properties
<LaserJock> yeah, nothing like the week before release :-)
<robotgeek> hmm, i tht a string freeze is a string freeze is a string freeze
<LaserJock> umm, I thought freezes were for exceptions ;-)
<robotgeek> hmm, anyways. i will go and grab food now. bbl
<jsgotangco> hopefully we get to resolve this during the sprint
<ghee22> anyone awake?
<Burgundavia> ghee22, check, but not for much longer
<ghee22> Burgundavia:  i have a made a very rough draft of what the intro prog will look like
<ghee22> posting now
<ghee22> Burgundavia:  the svg doesn't look good in firefox, will take 3 more min.. warning
<jsgotangco> intro prog?
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, the new ubuntu welcome centre
<jsgotangco> ahh right
<jsgotangco> are you mentoring that???
<Burgundavia> me, no
<Burgundavia> I am merely providing guidance and time where it is needed
<jsgotangco> i see
<Burgundavia> much like the ChildrensBrowser thing for Edubuntu
<Burgundavia> in reality, likely I will be the closest to a useful mentor ghee22 and anselmo will get, unless we step up to the palte
<ghee22> http://www.eden.rutgers.edu/~jigtopi/ubuntu/productivity.png
<Burgundavia> very cool, but I am little concerned about it being non-standard
<ghee22> I still have to add in screenshots, just that I wanted the UI to be up
<ghee22> definitely important point
<Burgundavia> have you tried with that list view I suggested?
<ghee22> where may find such standards
<Burgundavia> http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gup/hig/2.0/
<ghee22> I have tried to it, but I feel mirroring the help is not the goal of this project
<Burgundavia> specifically 6.25 on this
<Burgundavia> http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gup/hig/2.0/controls-notebooks.html
<ghee22> reading now
<ghee22> this may take a while...
<Burgundavia> standard gtk bits will make long maintence easier
<Burgundavia> plus make your app easier to write, with a minor concern about less than ideal layout
<ghee22> ahh, that "list view"... yes, this project is starting to become daunting
<Burgundavia> no worries :)
<jsgotangco> heh
<Burgundavia> we are here to help you succeed
<Burgundavia> some of us even code :)
<ghee22> haha
<Burgundavia> I assume you are doing this in pygtk?
<ghee22> you have assumed correctly
<Burgundavia> as for content, more than one page gets into the iffy zone for me
<Burgundavia> per option/section, of course
<ghee22> buy my python is weak.. when I applied on for the project, I threw out my heavy C experience.  But having read a few gtk tutorials, everyone raves of pygtk. so I've picked up a book for python
<Burgundavia> python is fairly easy to pick up
<Burgundavia> I have even dabbled a little in it, despite my hatred of all things code-related
<ghee22> I agree.  may I dare say, fun to learn?
<ghee22> at least when compared to java/c.   I did wonder if using mono would be allowed for this project
<Burgundavia> iffy, python is a much better choice
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia: boooo
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, are you saying that in general, or suggesting he use boo?
* ghee22 runs as he ignites language war
<jsgotangco>  despite my hatred of all things code-related
<jsgotangco> go get a visual basic book then :D
<Burgundavia> I have done vb
<Burgundavia> again, there are much better ways for me to spend my time than write shitty code
<ghee22> just to make sure, is it ABSOLUTELY necessary to stick to the HIG?
<Burgundavia> not one hundred percent, but the hig exists for a reason
<Burgundavia> you need to make a strong argument for breaking it
<Burgundavia> and, no, more bling is a not good argument
<Burgundavia> :)
<ghee22> How about this:  this more of a marketing program than a productivity program.  Aesthetics are extremely important to .... nevermind, you already answered it 
<Burgundavia> again, this should not be a marketing program
<Burgundavia> if we want a marketing program, lets write one
<ghee22> understood, they already have ubuntu.. wrong chioce of words in mine, this time
<Burgundavia> I think a marketing thing would be better served with an impress presentation running full screen in OO.o, rather than a specific program
<Burgundavia> then your mockup looks great for
<Burgundavia> in fact, I think I am going to have to steal it
<ghee22> Yeah.. that's great to hear.  I'll show you more stuff I had in mind... I was going to create a right column with videos for how to get to each piece of software I talk about.  It wouldn't automatically play, but once the user put the mouse over it, it'd start to play 
<Burgundavia> there are some really cools we can do with marketing, but that is a different discussion, for the fall
<ghee22> yup, I'm interested... ok, list control huh.  looks so unattractive.  :o(
<Burgundavia> help is supposed to be boring
<Burgundavia> plus don't go on those screenshots, they are ancient
<ghee22> that's exactly one of the reasons I think HIG doesn't apply.  if help is boring, the user will close it just as he would in windows.  this may lead to the user not actually learning or wanting to learn.. if you see the windows tour, they totally stray away from their "HIG".  I believe they did this for the same reason I do mine
<ghee22> without learning, comes frustration, comes a pirated windows XP
<Burgundavia> if we have good first sentence, we should be able to grab them
<ghee22> how about, "Don't close me just cause I'm ugly"
<Burgundavia> heh
<Burgundavia> I think the key thing is that you need to have something in the repo asap when edgy opens
<Burgundavia> then we can discuss it muchly on the doc list
<ghee22> yeah, I was actually thinking the same thing.. I'm gonna go ahead and make a boring one, but I'm also going to make an html one too.. if that one gets high demand, I'll "port" it to gtk
<ghee22> the html one will have the ui I posted earlier
<Burgundavia> if you are doing html, then you don't need a new app, you need yelp
<Burgundavia> hence, you would have an issue
<Burgundavia> if you want to hack on yelp, that is good too
<Burgundavia> ghee22, given your knowledge of C, yelp might make a good choice to change direction too
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, what do you think of the above idea>
<Burgundavia> ?
<ghee22> ok, I guess one thing at a time.  I'd like to hack on yelp, sure.  that's not my priority right now.  My priority is to finish what's assigned, and there's a lot of work left to do besides the UI.  Here's my final decision.  I'm giong to make this program using HIG.  That means, the next step right now is finishing content.  Mock screenshots will be posted within 2 days using HIG.  that's enough time to scope what they have to say about 
<Burgundavia> can I see your project proposal?
<ghee22> surely, grabbing.
<Burgundavia> if we can achieve what we want in yelp, I don't see the need to create yet another new program
<ghee22> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Ubuntu_Welcome_Center
<Burgundavia> hmm
<ghee22> updated categories on page
<jsgotangco> yelp is pretty extensible and can render html
<Burgundavia> I don't see anything in that spec we cannot do with docbook in spec now
<Madpilot> need sleep. night all
<mpt__> "Welcome to Windows 98, where your computer desktop meets the Internet! Sit back and relax as you take a brief tour of the options available on this screen."
<Burgundavia> given that, and that we don't want poor ghee22 to be out of a job, what else can we have him do?
<Madpilot> mpt, sounds like you reinstalled Win98 a number of times ;)
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, what about profiling yelp?
<mpt> Yes, it was the base OS at my last cybercaf?
<mpt> Burgundavia, yelp doesn't do interactivity
<Burgundavia> mpt, what sort do you mean?
<Madpilot> night all
<ghee22> I think a key sentence in the project proposal which led me to a non-HIG design is this: The application must be attractive and easy to use for new users to easily adopt in Ubuntu.
<mpt> ghee22, sorry to be coming in halfway through, but have you been accepted for the 2006 SoC?
<Burgundavia> mpt, yes
<ghee22> mpt, that question is loaded,  apparently I'm not up on the accepted proposals page in ubuntu but I think they may require some interaction from my mentor.
<mpt> ghee22, who is (or would be) your mentor?
<ghee22> my mentor is simon law and apparently is reading 24,000 emails per hour, god help him
<Burgundavia> mpt, realistically. the mentor is the doc team
<ghee22> I was assigned to him per janew
<mpt> That's more than six messages per second
<ghee22> that assignment came late
<mpt> Yeah, it seems the SoC has some speed wobbles this year
* mpt browses the spec
<Burgundavia> ghee22, yelp renders docbook and html quite well, hence the issue
<ghee22> wow, he's like the chuck norris of reading emails - simon law doesn't read bug reports, he smashes them with his bare fist
<ghee22> burgundavia: the project proposal required a gui app though
<Burgundavia> hmm
<mpt> "MS uses Flash for their tour"? Really?
<ghee22> A GUI application that assist the user with the application that he will be using in GNOME, and the capabilities of Ubuntu.
<ghee22> yes, load it up, and right click
<ghee22> they embed flash player 5 in your windows install
<Burgundavia> ghee22, can we do an end run around that and have you work on yelp instead?
<Burgundavia> there was a plan to embed yelp in the Ubuntu installer
<ghee22> it's possible, but my true goal was to create a tour similar to windows xp.
<Burgundavia> then you should be working on the installer
<ghee22> which is exactly what the proposal stated (the reason why I applied)
<Burgundavia> either way, I don't see a need for another program, hence the concern
<ghee22> yeah, I guess that's possible
<ghee22> we have the tour running during install
<Burgundavia> but neither do I want you thrown out on the street
<ghee22> ?
<Burgundavia> yep, hidden by default by an expander
<mpt> Burgundavia, stop eating those lemons :-)
<ghee22> well the install is running off the live cd?  so then it can still be an app on its own
<Burgundavia> hmm
<Burgundavia> not sure the installer should be spawning another program while installing
<mpt> An interactive tutorial would definitely be useful
<mpt> though its method of invocation could be debated for months
<Burgundavia> mpt, but another app for it just invites it to be forgotten after edgy
<ghee22> I agree with mpt.. if the user doesn't care about internet, but just productivity, the user should be able to just read that page
<mpt> Burgundavia, what special is happening after edgy?
<jsgotangco> how are you sure bout that?
<Burgundavia> mpt, nothing, but too many projects for last years soc just got forgotten because they failed to consider long term integration
<mpt> Burgundavia, or was it more because they were unmaintained?
* mpt knows very little about last year's projects
<mpt> What were they?
<Burgundavia> I argue they were unmaintained because of the former issue
<Burgundavia> we had a backup program and xen one that both failed for that very reason
<mpt> Maybe there's a sliding scale of project sexiness and necessity
<Burgundavia> tbh, and no disrespect against you ghee22, but I would argue against including yet another app just to show what Ubuntu can do, even if it does get produced
<ghee22> the programs discussed are very  mature: Oo.o, firefox, gaim, the games inside are classics.  I think the only updates needed are newer features involved with security, finding information (which I will discuss beagle).  Once the UI is in, it will be very possible only to replace the text and screenshots/video
<mpt> In the early days of the Mozilla project, there were many, many people contributing new splash screens for Mozilla to use
<Burgundavia> exactly, trying to solve a problem that didn't exist
* ghee22 grabs  armor and weaons to defend his project 
<mpt> because it was relatively easy to do, and it was the first thing everyone saw
<mpt> This is quite similar
<Burgundavia> ghee22, how extensive is your C experience?
<ghee22> grabbing latest thing written in school: 
<ghee22> wrote a rudimentary user-level remote file system using ONC (Sun) RPC supporting open, close, read, and write operations in C.
<Burgundavia> have you done any profiling? one of the things that sucks in yelp is the speed
<ghee22> profiling, no.. I hear those tasks are left for the gods of code
<Burgundavia> ok
<Burgundavia> one other way is to do the flash integration into ubitquity
<Burgundavia> I think that would fit the style of the project very well, and you would deliver a "gui app", just it would be part of a larger one
<Burgundavia> hell, we then have an excuse to ship gnash!
<mpt> yay
<Burgundavia> mpt, was that being sarcastic or happy?
<mpt> Burgundavia, happy, I crashed Epiphany on Homestar Runner yesterday
<Burgundavia> cool
<mpt> and there was no sound
<Burgundavia> using gnash?
<mpt> yeah
<mpt> but not specific to gnash
<Burgundavia> not tried it yet
<mpt> Ubuntu just goes quiet in general for long periods on this machine
<Burgundavia> wierd
<mpt> I suppose I should report a bug
<mpt> but I have no idea what information I should provide
<Burgundavia> ghee22, what do you think of that idea?
<Burgundavia> file one and people will ask you
<ghee22> I'm feeling really conflicted.  I do really want to help you.  but again, the reason why I applied to this project is because I wanted to do this project.  There may be a million other things that are more important, but this is what is most important to me..   I'm not sure why this project did not go through you when gettting accepted, but apparently someone saw the same vision I did.  And that vision did insinuate the screenshot I put 
* mpt hunts for Simon Law's e-mail address
<crimsun> mpt: recap sound issue, please?
<ghee22> mpt, "Simon Law" <sfllaw@ubuntu.com>
<jsgotangco> ?
<Burgundavia> ghee22, see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuExpress/GnomeUserInterface
<Burgundavia> scroll down to the Progress information section
<mpt> crimsun, sometimes (such as right now) Ubuntu doesn't produce any sound, even with volume turned up to the max.
<Burgundavia> ghee22, I think that is exactly what you want to be working on
<mpt> Burgundavia, seriously, that part of the installer would work very well just as an animated GIF
<jsgotangco> yes
<Burgundavia> that works too
<Burgundavia> I believe there was a crack idea involving sound
<crimsun> mpt: across /any/ sound app or just in epiphany?
<mpt> crimsun, any, including all the clicks GTK is supposed to be making
<crimsun> mpt: lsof /dev/dsp* /dev/snd/*
<crimsun> we can migrate to #ubuntu+1 if necessary
<mpt> mixer_app 5135 mpt 35u CHR 116,0 8653 /dev/snd/controlC0
<crimsun> ok, looks normal/fine
<crimsun> does ``aplay /usr/share/sounds/startup.wav'' produce audible volume?
<ghee22> Yes, that is very similar in terms of content.  but what if the user just leaves during install.  I know I leave when installing Windows XP tells me the rest will be done automatically.    My vision was to have this as a separate program, especially used on the live cd (when users just try ubuntu) and also on the first install's run
<ghee22> which is why I want a separate gui (just as the project proposal contains)
<mpt> crimsun, no, just does nothing for ~10 seconds
<crimsun> mpt: pastebin ``cat /proc/asound/cards && amixer'', please?
<Burgundavia> ghee22, first run is going to run into strong opposition from a number of people and I personally believe that the installer is part marketing, first run should not be
<Burgundavia> first run should be pure doc
<mpt> "pure doc"?
<mpt> crimsun, http://pastebin.com/746340
<Burgundavia> not "wow Ubuntu is cool", more "here is how you do X that 95% of you used to do in Windows"
<Burgundavia> the installer is about "wow Ubuntu is cool and this is how"
<Burgundavia> anyway, I need to sleep
<ghee22> yes, but how do we force the user to view this tour. and should we?  what if someone sets ubuntu up for a friend, which I have done 99% of the time w/out the friend there.  I think this should really be completely separate.  perhaps, like windows xp, it should popup in the system tray letting users know about it
<Burgundavia> ghee22, we should not be forcing the user todo anthing
<Burgundavia> ugh, system tray and popups
<Burgundavia> XP is awful for that
<crimsun> mpt: hmm, nothing extraordinary. Anything in ``dmesg''?
<Burgundavia> ghee22, hence why the part about the installer. Most people are going to stare at it, but you can shrink it if you want
<mpt> crimsun, unlikely -- I don't remember exactly when sound stopped, but it would have been a week or two ago
<Burgundavia> ghee22, anyway, final thought before I crash. I really love that you are thinking about this, but I really don't see a need for yet another application specifically for this. The isntaller and yelp are great places to put this stuff
<mpt> Quite unfairly, I'm going to disagree with Burgundavia after he's gone
<ghee22> burgundavia, because I strongly feel the people who install ubuntu, are not the ones that are going to use it.  I've been distributing/installing ubuntu to parents/business students
<mpt> ghee22, I think it's an interesting idea
<ghee22> yah, he said he was gonna sleep around 3... I feel bad for him, I got him riled up
* ghee22 grins
<mpt> I've just mailed Simon asking him to let me know if he likes the idea but doesn't have time to design it
<ghee22> thanks
<mpt> in which case I'd be interested in helping out
<ghee22> mpt, I'm giving simon law some time, after june 1st, I think he'll be more free.  and who knows, he was assigned to me for some reason
<mpt> but now I really need to get back to proper work :-)
<ghee22> I don't think I'd like burgundavia as a mentor, we'd argue forever, but he is very smart, just has different ideas than me.  ok mpt, I'm going to continue on content.
<mpt> crimsun, next time it stops after starting again, I'll grab dmesg and report a bug
<mpt> thanks for your time
<crimsun> mpt: great, thanks
<jsgotangco> i truly doubt if sflaw will be really free after all the bugs come crashing down after release :D
* jsgotangco hides
<jsgotangco> (or whining rather than bugs)
<jsgotangco> ghee22: honestly, some find him dictatorial :D but with good intentions
<jsgotangco> (about burgundavia that is)
<jsgotangco> :D
<Kamping_Kaiser> can i use the fdl.xml in the ubuntu docteams svn repo in my projects? i asume yes, but i thought i should check.
<mdke> Kamping_Kaiser: course
<Kamping_Kaiser> mdke, thanks.
<crimsun> is anyone writing a migration guide for hoary/breezy -> dapper?
<crimsun> I can think of at least two issues
<crimsun> (both sound related, of course)
<LaserJock> I think there is something on the wiki at least
<LaserJock> or maybe the release notes
<mdke> DapperUpgrades probably, or release notes yeah
<crimsun> ok, I'll look at the former (wiki), and I presume I'd have to submit something to a mailing list for the latter?
<LaserJock> I'm not sure who does the release notes
<mdke> crimsun: both wiki
<crimsun> ok, thanks
#ubuntu-doc 2006-05-31
<mdke> LaserJock: some edubuntu pages have appeared on the wiki and aren't tagged, can you remind Pete to do so, assuming I've understood correctly that edubuntu documentation is to go to the new wiki
<LaserJock> I'll let him know, to be honest I don't really know what is going on with Edubuntu wiki pages
* mdke throws hands up
<LaserJock> hehe
<LaserJock> could be I'm just out of the loop
<mdke> there are LTSP docs without it too
<mdke> just give him a smack
<mdke> OMG, the "s/apt-get/aptitude/g" is still at it
<mgalvin> i missed most of that, what was the driving force to undo all the apt-get and make it generic?
<mdke> mgalvin: same reasons we do it in our documentation. It is simpler because it doesn't involve forcing a choice of package manager on the reader
<mgalvin> ok, i will not stir it up now :-/
<mdke> mgalvin: you don't agree?
<mgalvin> mdke: i find that the ability to copy paste commands for new users far outweighs annoying a few elitists who are smart enough to use what they want if they don't like apt
<jeffsch> hmmm.... it seems to me that "aptitude install package" simply calls apt-get anyway
<mdke> mgalvin: what about people who don't like opening a terminal at all?
<mdke> they can't copy and paste
<mdke> and they are our primary user base
<mdke> this is not just some religious dispute between apt-get and aptitude ;)
<mgalvin> thats true, i haven't thought enough about a possible alternative "middle ground" solution...
<mdke> "install package X" works nicely
<mdke> jeffsch: apparently it is more sophisticated in its dependency handling, it installs Recommended or something, and remove orphans
<mgalvin> it does, i am not saying i am against what has been done, i guess i am just a command line jockey...
<jeffsch> ah. i wouldn't want to use aptitude then if it automatically installs Recommended
<mgalvin> my same argument goes against my own to, if readers a smart enough to know the difference they will just type on the CLI
<mgalvin> i haven't really used aptitude much, i never really liked it so i tend to be biased toward apt-get
<mdke> mgalvin: that's the idea. Generally, if you see the desktop guide, we link to the chapter which describes how to use em all
<mdke> so "Install package X from the Y repository (See Adding/Removing Programs)"
<mgalvin> i should have my mom read the guide as a test case and see how far she gets :)
<LaserJock> well, if it was just apt-get vs aptitude it wouldn't be a big deal
<mgalvin> that would be *THE* test ;)
<LaserJock> but there is apt-get aptitude synaptic adept g-a-i
<LaserJock> we just simply can't get away with saying explicitly what to use without getting lots of people mad
<mdke> or without it simply not being helpful
<LaserJock> and having some guy running around the wiki s/apt-get/aptitude/g
<mgalvin> yea i understand the problem, thats why i didn't want to stir it up :)
<mgalvin> what would be nice if the links from in the docs/wiki open up a preferred installer
<LaserJock> it's like explicitly telling people to use emacs to edit a file
<mdke> well, we make an exception there
<mdke> gedit is so good that we recommend it for editing
<jeffsch> it might be useful to always specify at least one way of doing it... that way the unknowledgable user doesn't need to stop and go somewhere else and decide what app to use for installing
<mdke> it's so far above any other editor... unlike apt-get/aptitude/etc
<LaserJock> lol
<jeffsch> the one's who know can use the one they've already decided to use
<LaserJock> I'd dispute that, but for the new user I suppose ;-)
<LaserJock> to mdke's gedit > * comment
<mdke> jeffsch: I think even the unknowledgeable user will benefit from learning once how to install software
<LaserJock> yes
<mgalvin> jeffsch: that is exactly my concern, it is a distraction to have to go somewhere else to learn how to install instead of the info being inline
<LaserJock> mgalvin: but you only really have to do it once or twice
<LaserJock> and people don't get mad that you aren't using the "right" package manager :-)
<jeffsch> mdke: that's true... but, (speaking for myself) i would prefer to get the app installed and play with it, then when i'm ready to learn the other install tools, i can go do that
<mgalvin> although, sure in the long run it is beneficial, if they don't give up b/c users are lazy you know ;)
<mdke> jeffsch: you're never going to though! ;)
<jeffsch> :)
<mdke> but above all else, it's a pain for us to go through every line of the guide and work out whether the app is in g-a-i or not
<mdke> since some aren't, it made sense to use a nice generic option
<jeffsch> mdke: but then i don't need to either... it's right there cut-and-paste
<LaserJock> jeffsch: so what line would we use then? what about people who like synaptic or g-a-i?
<jeffsch> then they can use synaptic or g-a-i
<mgalvin> well, synaptic is also considered and "advanced tool"
<mdke> so we'd be telling users by default to use the terminal?
<mdke> dude we can't go down that road
<mdke> and say "advanced users should use the UI"
<mgalvin> your right, we can't just direct everyone to the CLI
<jeffsch> use synaptic in graphical environments, and apt-get in command-line environments
<mgalvin> does the server guide also use the generic install method?
<mdke> no, but I think it should
<mdke> jeffsch: then the developers get upset with us for ignoring their default package management tool (synaptic over gai)
<mgalvin> see, i think for the desktop guide to stay off the CLI is ok, but the server guide should be CLI
<Burgwork> mdke, rtfwp?
<LaserJock> mgalvin: why?
<jeffsch> we write for ubuntu users, not ubuntu developers
<mdke> Burgwork: wikipage... was referring to the locoteam howto. Also, you should really use #ubuntu-locoteams
<LaserJock> jeffsch: but ubuntu developers have made a cool app for the users
<Burgwork> ah, yes, wiki pages
<mdke> jeffsch: the developers write for the users too
<mgalvin> LaserJock: almost anyone reading the "server" guide is going to have to hit the CLI to config the server anyway
<Burgwork> I would agree with mgalvin
<mgalvin> they are already advanced user if they are considering server stuff
<mdke> mgalvin: yes, CLI of course, but I still think it should be application neutral, so they can choose whatever package manager they prefer. Especially for advanced users
<LaserJock> that doesn't necessarily mean they shouldn't be aware of GUI tools
<Burgwork> we are also trying to emphasize best practices with our guides and best practices for a server is no gui
<jeffsch> but not all apps are in g-a-i, right?
<mdke> Burgwork: sure, but the issue here is not GUI or no GUI, it is package manager neutral or not
<LaserJock> Burgwork: perhaps, I guess it depends what kind of server
<mdke> so for the server guide, we should still be neutral, so the reader can choose which non-UI package manager they like
<mdke> jeffsch: right
<jeffsch> if you're exploring around and want to see what you can put on your system, then gai sounds good
<LaserJock> yeah, I've used it a few times
<mgalvin> wasn't apt-get considered the preferred method at one point (a while ago)?
<LaserJock> aptitude is preferred by many devs
<mdke> mgalvin: we changed early in this release cycle for the Desktop Guide
<Burgwork> true true
* Burgwork just shuts up
<mdke> Burgwork: does the Ubuntu Welcome Center chap read the mailing list btw? It'd be nice to have a thread about it
<LaserJock> basically, it comes down to this, IMO, if we have to argue about it then I'm sure users will get confused. That is why I think going neutral allows us to be the most helpful while not taking sides
<Burgwork> mdke, yes, I made him sign up
<mdke> Burgwork: hehe. Good. I mailed JaneW today asking about what vision they had of the spec, and with some preliminary thoughts about it conflicting with the help center.
<Burgwork> mdke, yep, did you see our discussion int eh backlog?
<mdke> Burgwork: more or less. I don't think it's getting anywhere, the guy is tied to his spec
<Burgwork> yep and that is a sad thing, because like I said to him, I really don't see a place for another app
<mgalvin> LaserJock: yes your neutralness ;) 
<mdke> well, obviously others more important than us disagree
* mgalvin is a huge futurama fan :)
<Burgwork> you know JaneW is leaving?
<mdke> no, i hadn't heard that. Bummer
<mdke> mpt: 
<mdke> whoops
<mdke> mpt: typo
<Burgwork> I see the work being done and then forgotten at the end of SoC
* mdke is not sure
<mdke> I see the work being done, not translated and then pushed in on top of the documentation *cough* book *cough*
<Burgwork> you know that flash stuff we worked on with mdz a few months back? that should be what he could be working on
<mdke> agreed. Possibly with links to sections of the help
* Burgwork slaps mdke with THE BOOK
<mdke> it doesn't hurt unless you slap me with the OFFICIAL book
<Burgwork> and then we can work on an awesome docbook frontpage for yelp
<mdke> yes, quite
<Burgwork> I really loved his mockup. I think I am going to have to steal it
<mdke> however
<mdke> I think we need to do some talking with people in high places, I'm slightly concerned that the docteam is getting a bit overlooked, especially now that it is really rocking
<mdke> for example it would have been nice to have been asked about this spec
<Burgwork> I blame jerome
<mdke> hmm?
<Burgwork> he had access ot the google mentors page and said nothing
<mdke> heh, poor bloke
* Burgwork doesn't really blame jerome
<mdke> I know
<mpt> oh, lordy, this topic again
<Burgwork> I don't think is a big giant plan on Canonicals part
<mdke> course not
<mdke> mpt: well, not really
<Burgwork> I will, however, readily accept the book as being a BIG GIANT PLAN by Canonical
* mdke grrrs
<mdke> I hope I get a copy at least
<mpt> There is a very easy way to solve this issue
<Burgwork> I will send you one if you don'
<mdke> all my hard work slating Jono's writing
<mpt> Rename the Documentation Team to the Help Team
<Burgwork> how about the Needs Help Team ;)
<mpt> to make it crystal clear that writing books is not their job
* mpt ducks and runs
<mdke> mpt: we'd have to take over the forums, irc, the Canonical support center... the world...
* Burgwork salivates at the thought
<mpt> the Help Writing Team, then?
<mpt> ok, maybe not
<mdke> the DON'T TOUCH OUR HELP MENU Team
<mpt> haha
<mpt> If only there was a Help menu!
<mdke> even then Mark would out trump us
<mpt> omg
* mpt looks in the Help submenu
<mpt> I hadn't seen this for a few days
<mpt> System Documentation [sic] 
<mpt> Online [sic]  Documentation
<mpt> Community Support
<mpt> Commercial Support
<mpt> Ubuntu Book Excerpt
<mpt> HOW AM I SUPPOSED TO KNOW WHICH ONE HAS AN ANSWER TO MY QUESTION
<mdke> eh?
<mdke> mpt: dude, I exchanged about 15 emails with sabdfl about this, all I got was that I had a view of help which was "too linear"
<Burgwork> uhh, isn't help supposed to be linear?
<mpt> too linear?
<mpt> What does that even mean?
<mdke> what can you do?
<jeffsch> mpt: simple. you go through each one, line by line, until you find your answer.
<jeffsch> :)
<mpt> depth-first search!
<mgalvin> :), yea get to the end and pay someone to help
<mpt> uh oh
<mpt> I chose "Book Excerpt" and I get something that's not a book excerpt
<Burgwork> jeffsch, better have them check the source code too
<crimsun> err, System> Help is ... interesting.
<mdke> mpt: I wish you'd let him know how crap it is. Your opinion might carry more weight than mine.
<Burgwork> mdke, not likely
<mpt> unlikely
<mdke> even worse, Book Excerpt is only in English
<mdke> so the foreigner does this:
<mpt> mdke, kindly reproduce this bug for me
<mdke> "oooh, official book, I'll try that first"
<mpt> 1. Choose "Book Excerpt"
<mpt> what do you see?
<Burgwork> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MatthewPaulThomas?action=diff&rev2=13&rev1=12 <-- this edit tells me everything you need to know mdke 
<mdke> "oh, damn, it's in English"
<mdke> "oh well, none of the documentation is in my language then"
<mpt> mdke, I see not a book excerpt, but a page that tells me how to use the Help menu that I just came out of
<mdke> :(
<mdke> mpt: no, I can't reproduce that. Got an up to date example-content?
<Burgwork> so lets plan to kill the help menu for a better page in Yelp
<Burgwork> s/page/front page/
<mpt> Burgwork, by "kill ... for" do you mean "replace ... with"?
<Burgwork> mpt, yes
<mdke> I'll blog about it when Dapper is out the door and Mark won't think I'm just bitter about the book being included, I spent half my time trying to convince him of that too
<mpt> mdke, synaptic tells me that I have four out-of-date packages, and none of them are example-content
<Burgwork> now that i have been paid, I can say anything I want
<Burgwork> I will blog about it tonight
<dsas> heh, I just noticed the book mentions enabling hdparm.
<mpt> mdke, I have example-content v21, what version do you have?
<mdke> mpt: yeah. gnome-panel?
<mpt> 2.14.1
<mdke> ubuntu16?
<mpt> one moment
<mpt> how do I tell while synaptic is busy?
<mpt> apt-something?
<dsas> apt-cache policy gnome-panel
<mdke> dpkg -l gnome-panel
<mdke> heh
<mpt> 2.14.1-0ubuntu16 0
<mdke> mpt: and you get what, the firefox hompage?
<mpt> dum dum DUMMMM
<mpt> mdke, no, a Yelp window containing styled HTML
<mdke> wha
<mdke> screenie?
<mpt> "Welcome to Ubuntu 6.06 LTS!"
<mpt> so, this is a bug, then
<mdke> yeah
<LaserJock> apt-cache madison gnome-panel :-)
<mpt> package example-content?
<mdke> mpt: could be gnome-panel actually, the link sounds wrong
<mdke> you should get http://mdke.org/tmp/book.png
<mdke> ok, it's late. gnight all
<mpt> mdke, no :-( ... goodnight
<mpt> oh, man, more Microsoft typography on the cover of the Ubuntu book
<mpt> ok, no more negative statements from me today
<mpt> I'm a happy person
<mpt> bug 47596 reported
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 47596 in Ubuntu ""Ubuntu Book Excerpt" doesn't show book excerpt (shows "Welcome to Ubuntu" instead)" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/47596
<mpt> ... "You can see what changes have been made recently, and contribute thoughs and ideas to help shape the direction that Ubuntu takes yourself."
<Burgundavia> hmm, just missed mgalvin
<Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/OSSGeeks <-- huh
<LaserJock> what the heck?
<Burgundavia> no idea
<Lathiat> ...
<Lathiat> right
<Burgundavia> by someone called "Ubuntu Logs"
<Lathiat> no revisions either
<Lathiat> whack
<Burgundavia> I hate the wiki for this not knowing who this person is
<Burgundavia> mdke, uhh, how do I buy from this page? http://www.lulu.com/ubuntu-doc
<LaserJock> I don't know that you can yet
<Burgundavia> evening robitaille 
<robitaille> Hi Burgundavia 
<jsgotangco> meh
<jsgotangco> how big is the army of france?
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, uh?
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia: heh i went to the consul today for my visa
<jsgotangco> but they're asking for a lot of stuff
<jsgotangco> its workable but its irritating
* jsgotangco hates his passport
* highvoltage needs to get visa too still
<jsgotangco> highvoltage: it might be easier for you
<highvoltage> jsgotangco: how so?
<jsgotangco> i dunno
<jsgotangco> pommie blood? heh i doubt that
<highvoltage> in my experience nothing simple happens easy for me
<jsgotangco> actually going to australia is much easier than this
<jsgotangco> (i didnt even appear in person)
<highvoltage> geez, i think the pommie blood is from ancient ancestors. i'm like, 5th generation south african :)
<Burgundavia> back and black in dapper
<jsgotangco> heh
* jsgotangco hugs n-m
<jsgotangco> its sooo handy when you're out
<Burgundavia> in breezy, default boot was 250+ mb
<Burgundavia> dapper is 136
* jsgotangco will have to go look for other bandwidth sources within the area
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia: did you get to read the newsletter i wrote in 10 minutes for edubuntu? did you like it?
<jsgotangco> or was it horrible
<Burgundavia> it looked good to me
<jsgotangco> for you *that* is a complement
<jsgotangco> (knowing you)
<Burgundavia> are you saying i don't offer many complements?
<jsgotangco> no i just feel you're a bit hard to please
<jsgotangco> (in a good way)
<Burgundavia> I didn't parse the whole thing, but the headings grabbed me and I didn't see any major typos/grammar errors
* jsgotangco gotta go
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia: that's good to know
<Burgundavia> yes, I am very hard to please
<Burgundavia> makes it hard for me to live with me
* highvoltage gets a long better with people that are hard to please than people who are either impossible to please, or too easy to please
<mdke> Burgundavia: you can't at the moment, we have no books there yet
<Burgundavia> mdke: hmm, then I guess we might want to mention that on that page
<Burgundavia> because I spent about 15 minutes trying to get a book and failed
<mdke> Burgundavia: haha. Yes, ok
<bhuvan> mdke & team: congrats! well done and guess it's wonderful moment for all of us!
<jsgotangco> bhuvan: it'll be much sweeter when you receive the CD...then see your labour of love
<bhuvan> jsgotangco: yeah!
<LaserJock> mdke: ping?
<mdz> I've made substantial edits to DapperReleaseNotes to remove the mirror list (which will be more up-to-date in the announcement and website news), etc.
<LaserJock> cool
<crimsun> mdz: hmm, the Known Issues on DRN look pretty important, so I guess my queued notes for sound don't belong there
<crimsun> err, s/mdz//
<crimsun> (sorry)
<Burgwork> http://www.novell.com/coolsolutions/tools/screenshots/printcosts.jpg <-- hmm, gee, that isn't Suse!
<mdke> LaserJock: pong
<LaserJock> mdke: the kubuntu release notes are umm, messy
<mdke> ah
<mdke> LaserJock: the words or the markup is messy?
<LaserJock> words
<mdke> oh dear
<LaserJock> Kamion asked us to look at it
<mdke> right, where are they?
<LaserJock> he said they were unprofessional
<LaserJock> kubuntu/releasenotes
<LaserJock> I think he wants it to go in -updates
<mdke> are they being shipped currently with dapper?
<LaserJock> I believe so
<LaserJock> I think that might be where he saw it
<mdke> so he's removed them?
<LaserJock> I don't think so
<LaserJock> I think he wants it fixed for -updates
<mdke> ok, updating them shouldn't be a problem, they aren't translated
<mdke> we need to get some kubuntu guys on it
<mdke> robotgeek ^^
<mdke> Burgwork: as far as you are concerned, are we good to go for the wiki move?
<mdke> highvoltage: ^
<LaserJock> it references some breezy stuff, has lines like "Wahoo a sweet new installer is available for Kubuntu 6.06!!!!", lots of typos, etc. :(
<mdke> holy shit
<highvoltage> mdke: to be quite honest, I don't know for sure. I haven't checked all the important pages for the CategoryDocumentation yet
<highvoltage> but--
<highvoltage> since the move won't break any links, I don't think there will be any problems.
<highvoltage> mdke: are there any anticipated problems for a premature move?
<mdke> right, you can always move things by hand if they don't get caught
<mdke> highvoltage: premature how?
<highvoltage> mdke: premature as in, not all pages tagged yet
<highvoltage> mdke: but from what you've said, I think things should be fine
<Burgwork> mdke, afaik, no
<mdke> highvoltage: yeah. I tagged all the UbuntuLTSP pages yesterday
<mdke> Burgwork: great
<Burgwork> mdke, what is the plan for the pages left behind? Are we making them redirects? Can we lock them somehow?
<mdke> Burgwork: they refresh to the new page
<Burgwork> ah, that is good
<Burgwork> but how do we prevent stupid people from editing the redirect pages?
<LaserJock> Burgwork: what? stupid people on our wiki?
<Burgwork> no, never ;)
<mdke> Burgwork: "the new page" meaning the same page on the new wiki
<highvoltage> hehe!
<mdke> it's actually surprisingly difficult to edit the old page
<Burgwork> ok
<Burgwork> suprisingly difficult is something stupid people are suprising good at
<mdke> Burgwork: you have to go back to the old wiki, insert ?action=show in the top and then click edit
<Burgwork> ah, ok
<mdke> website looks really nice
<mdke> I like the new side menus heaps more
<LaserJock> which website?
<mdke> www.u.c
<LaserJock> ohhhhhhh, nice
<mdke> ok, looks like our hero znarl is going to do the wiki/help.u.c move tomorrow or friday
<LaserJock> an englishman that doesn't like custard? weird
* mdke shrugs
<crimsun> keybuk's secretly...french?
<mdke> haha
<mdke> Burgwork: one thing we need to sort out is who gets permission to delete/rename pages
<LaserJock> crimsun: must be, that's the only explanation
<Burgwork> mdke, ALL ME!!!
<mdke> Burgwork: the wiki team would sound sensible, but I haven't checked who is there
<Burgwork> wiki team is pretty good
<Burgwork> let me cleanout old people
<mdke> Burgwork: current list is at https://new-help.ubuntu.com/community/EditorGroup
<mdke> you'll hopefully need to log in to see it
<Burgwork> no can do
<mdke> eh?
<mdke> you can't log in, or you can't see it?
<Burgwork> can't see it
<mdke> that's good
<Burgwork> the launchpad team seems pretty good to me
<Burgwork> some names I do recognize
<mdke> heh
<Burgwork> don't, I should say
<mdke> we can either add them all at once, or wait until they come along and ask
<Burgwork> I would do the latter
<Burgwork> in which case maybe I should deactivate everybody and ask them to rejoin?
<mdke> Burgwork: nah, doesn't matter I'd say
<Burgwork> ok
<Burgwork> we can always turn somebody off if they start abusing it
<mdke> Burgwork: the LP group doesn't get the privileges automatically
<mdke> they have to be listed on that wiki page I showed ya
<mdke> Lathiat: ping?
<mdke> actually, brb
<ploum> Hello
<ploum> I'm looking for a good english speaker that can correct my announce for the release of Dapper
<LaserJock> hmm, good is sort of subjective
<Burgwork> ploum, I can help you
* Burgwork notes that LaserJock speeky good enligshy
<ploum> Burgwork: can I send you the text by email or anything else ?
<ploum> (it's a bit "special", it's my style)
<LaserJock> I'm a native speaker, which means I have horrible enlish skills :-)
<ploum> LaserJock: I'm a french speaker...  That must tell you how bad my english is
<Burgwork> LaserJock, you spelling is pretty good too ;)
<Burgwork> ploum, fire away
<crimsun> sure, post the url 
<ploum> no URL now
<ploum> I want to keep it confidential before the release ;-)
<ploum> Burgwork: which email ?
<LaserJock> ploum: get crimsun or Burgwork to do it, they are good with these kinds of things
<Burgwork> corey.burger@gmail.com
<ploum> Burgwork: done
<ploum> thanks for your help
<ploum> This way I will not be too ashamed when it will be published on puc
<Burgwork> ploum, you are on drugs
* ploum looks at his glass
<ploum> I hope not
<Burgwork> either that, or the french gov has spike the water
<ploum> I'm a belgian :-)
* ploum is not sure if what Burgwork says is good or not 
<ploum> ;-)
<Burgwork> right, anyway
<Burgwork> just a sec, on the phone
<robotgeek> mdke: hmm, okay
<Burgwork> ploum, aside from the complete insanity of it, the english is good, afais
<ploum> Burgwork: thanks a lot :-)
* robotgeek notices that there is also a missing section on hardware requirements for Kubuntu
<ploum> I improve it every day thanks to Ubuntu
<ploum> My friends consider me insane because I don't use Windows nor MSN ...
<ploum> if even the Ubuntu community considers me insane..
<Burgwork> ploum, we consider you insane is the "good" way
<ploum> :-D
<ploum> To be honnest, I also consider you as insane..
<ploum> due to the incredible amount of work you are doing
<Burgwork> me, I am pure sloth
<Burgwork> I do nothing of Ubuntu
<ploum> But the most insane is still seb128, no doubt about it
<crimsun> you're starting to sound like bddebian, Burgwork :p
<LaserJock> lol
<ToHellWithGA> hi
<ToHellWithGA> is this the right place for a suggestion about the site?
<LaserJock> the ubuntu.com website?
<ToHellWithGA> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BurningIsoHowto <- has no details about burning in ubuntu
<ToHellWithGA> *in linux
<robotgeek> http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/release-notes/C/index.html seems to be aimed for Edubuntu?
<LaserJock> ah, well you are welcome to fix that if you want
<LaserJock> robotgeek: that was fixed on the wiki
<robotgeek> ah, okay
<LaserJock> robotgeek: but it probably should be fixed in the repo too
<LaserJock> ToHellWithGA: I think that wiki page is designed for getting info to burn an Ubuntu install cd
<ToHellWithGA> i'm looking to burn a new install CD of the dapper pre-release but have no way to do so
<ToHellWithGA> *to my knowledge
<ToHellWithGA> i'll check some IRC help channels, but i understand the angle you're coming from
<LaserJock> oh, I think nautilus does that
<ToHellWithGA> thanks LaserJock.  I'll try that.
<ToHellWithGA> Peace
<Burgwork> LaserJock, umm, that page does
<Burgwork> first thing
<LaserJock> doh
<Burgwork> I know because I wrote/cleaned up most of that page
<LaserJock> I didn't bother to look
<LaserJock> I assumed he was right
<Burgwork> heh
<LaserJock> gotta stop making that mistake
<LaserJock> Burgwork: any fallout from the packaging project?
<Burgwork> I have heard nothing yet
<Burgwork> you?
<LaserJock> nothing
<Burgwork> it is not my problem and I have other things to worry about
<mdke> what project is that?
<Burgwork> mdke, something for work
<Burgwork> LaserJock, can you send us a bill?
<LaserJock> umm, I guess
<mdke> Burgwork: what shall we do with the homepage of the new wiki? Copy across UserDocumentation and make a redirect from there to Home? Or write a new page? Or make UserDocumentation the homepage by default?
<mdke> I'd say the first of those, myself
<Burgwork> the latter
<mdke> ok
<mdke> yeah, that works too
<Madpilot> hi all
* mdke hugs Madpilot 
<Burgwork> hey Madpilot 
<Madpilot> So I tried a dist-upgrade last night, and it's eaten my install... :(
<mdke> oh dear
<Madpilot> currently on a Flight7 LiveCD
<mdke> I hope you didn't lose any data
<Burgwork> Madpilot, hmm, mine went flawlessly
<Madpilot> no, everything is still there, GDM just won't start
<mdke> reconfigure X?
<Burgwork> dpkg-reconfigure xorg-server
<Madpilot> yeah, I need to poke around this evening
<Madpilot> GDM gets to the login screen, then it won't log me it
<Madpilot> "GDM could not write to your authorization file..."
<ploum> good night folks
<Burgwork> hmm, .ICEauthorization
<Burgwork> check the permissions on that
<Burgwork> oh, and file a bug
<Madpilot> Burgwork, could be that, but it looks like the dist-upgrade has also choked my / partition - df -h shows it at 100% full
<Burgwork> hmm, that is likely your issue
<Burgwork> didn't you have that issue with logs earlier?
<mdke> Madpilot: maybe your apt cache
<Madpilot> mdke, could be. I need to reboot to the recovery console & see
<Madpilot> Burgwork, yeah -was that during dist-upgrade Hoary->Breezy, or was that something else?
<mdke> you can't log in from a console?
<Madpilot> I can, recovery mode from GRUB works
<Burgwork> Madpilot, no, remember when your hdd was dying and it filled the hdd with logs?
<mdke> not a console in normal mode?
<Madpilot> mdke, not thru GDM, no.
<mdke> Madpilot: GDM isn't a console :) do Ctrl Alt F1 and try logging in
<LaserJock> Madpilot: no, the Ctrl-Alt-F1 kind
<Madpilot> gah - I keep forgetting you can get out of GDM to the 'real' console
<Madpilot> will try that later
<LaserJock> hehe, I forget what GDM looks like because I'm alway in a console ;-)
<LaserJock> although I've really tried to use more GUI stuff since I installed Ubuntu on a machine at work
<Madpilot> I'm primarily a GUI user - does it show? ;)
<LaserJock> I'm pretty impressed with Nautilus and even that gedit think ;-)
<crimsun> I love X Windows. I can open a bazillion terminal emulators.
* robotgeek fixes typos in release notes in xml
<Madpilot> crimsun, or just one copy of gnome-terminal with a bazillion tabs
<Burgwork> you see that gedit will have regex soon?
<crimsun> Madpilot: that hurts for coding.
<crimsun> alt+f2 for vimdiff -g, but otherwise I need separate windows
<robotgeek> i like svn diff also 
<LaserJock> I'm a tab junkie, poor firefox gets mad when I load up 20 tabs
<robotgeek> i prefer konq for most of my stuff, and use the open in firefox option if something doesn't work
<LaserJock> I bounc between KDE, Gnome, openbox, xfce, OS X and XP enough that I like having the consistency of firefox
<crimsun> opera's just about the only browser I've used that can handle having as many tabs open as I tend to
<Burgwork> I have found epiphany is very good at multiple tab handling, something that FF is very bad at
<LaserJock> really? I've never tried opera
<LaserJock> nor epiphany really
<crimsun> again, though, I run into "I can't read this tab because the bar is too narrow because there are ninety tabs"
<crimsun> epiphany rocks
<mdke> I don't really like the way epiphany doesn't narrow the tabs when you have lots open
<crimsun> hence I have to have six or seven different browser windows just for legible tabs
<mdke> i don't like having to scroll sideways
<crimsun> mdke: see, that's why I have lots of browser windows open
<crimsun> regardless which browser I choose, the tab thing always bites me in the arse
<Burgwork> mdke, ya, that is a gtk buyg
<LaserJock> well, it is a lot better than the OS X situation
<LaserJock> the tabs just drop off the end
<robotgeek> LaserJock: even in camino?
<LaserJock> so you have to hit a little button on the far right of the tab bar to get a list of the leftovers
<LaserJock> safari and camino both do it I think
<robotgeek> i use to prefer camino to firefox on OS X, now i am not sure
<mdke> Burgwork: no, epiphany chooses to do that
<LaserJock> robotgeek: I've tried firefox, safari, and camino. they all suck to varying extents
<mdke> Burgwork: I can kinda understand why, it's not so bad
<LaserJock> I sure wish I could get gnome in OS X, stupid x86 mac :(
<LaserJock> I want gedit and epiphany and yelp
<robotgeek> how is the gtk os project coming along?
<robotgeek> gtk os x , err
<LaserJock> I thought it was dead, or at least not very active
<crimsun> LaserJock: http://pdb.finkproject.org/pdb/package.php/gedit
<LaserJock> and fink/darwin ports don't really work on the DE level
<LaserJock> lates fink gives me 2.12
<Madpilot> off to work - I'll work on my busted system later tonight. Wish me luck...
<LaserJock> and no yelp and no epiphany
<mdke> Madpilot: good luck!
<crimsun> LaserJock: welcome to fink, would you like to contribute a 2,14,2 build?
<crimsun> :-)
<LaserJock> crimsun: no, because it won't work
<crimsun> we're counting on YUO
<LaserJock> firefox won't work on fink/darwin ports and so anything that relies on that, yelp is one and I would think epiphany too, won't work
<LaserJock> until Firefox 2.0 i've heard
<crimsun> haven't checked xulrunner for fink
<LaserJock> anyway, I've just about had it with fink and darwin ports
<Gwaihir> piccola domanda... nessuno di voi a problemi con fglrx ultimamente?
<mdke> hah
<Gwaihir> sorry.... wrong tab!
<Gwaihir> :)
<mdke> disgraziato
<crimsun> LaserJock: yeah, go away and use your silly os x :P
<LaserJock> VNC baby
<Gwaihir> ;)
<LaserJock> although since the Ubuntu computer is about 4 feet from my desk I can do X forwarding pretty well too
<mdke> low latency
<LaserJock> I don't think it will work so well from Paris so I'm going to have to figure something out :/
<LaserJock> my wife totally doesn't want me to take her Windows laptop out of the country :-)
<mdke> you need to put your foot down
<mdke> tell her, no more windows
<LaserJock> lol, sure, right, yeah
<mdke> worksforme
<LaserJock> getsmekilled
<LaserJock> actually, I'll probably end up dual booting it
<robotgeek> LaserJock: give her windows in a vmware
<LaserJock> and I already told her I need to take it with me
<LaserJock> robotgeek: it isn't so much the Windows part, she doesn't particularly like Windows
<robotgeek> it will be so slow, that she will use Ubuntu :)
<LaserJock> she know that if it has Ubuntu on it she'll never get to use it again
<LaserJock> and she is probably afraid I'll forget it somewhere in Paris
<LaserJock> absent minded professor syndrome
<crimsun> better than the laptop stolen at $conference syndrome
<LaserJock> well, that too
<LaserJock> I'm might have told her about ajmitch's laptop at UBZ (I think that was it)
<LaserJock> anywho, that is waay OT
<mdke> violent wife eh
<LaserJock> not exactly violent, but she has her ways :-)
<mdke> my girlfriend complains because she can't read the italian soap websites without IE
<mdke> but she has learned to live with it
* Burgwork is glad to be single
<LaserJock> hehe, my wife just doesn't like computers too much. wouldn't matter OS it was
<crimsun> $Ubuntu qualifies as a S.O.
<Burgwork> hmm, likely
<LaserJock> anyway, hopefully I can take the camera too :-)
<LaserJock> that cost a bit, and has a case at least so I'm less likely to loose it completly
<LaserJock> it doesn't help that I forgot my wallet when I left the house this morning (for like the 3rd time this month)
<LaserJock> hard to instill confidence when I can't remember where I put anything ;-)
<crimsun> it's quite simple. Duct tape all essential things to Canonical laptop.
<mdke> ouch
<LaserJock> hmm, if I had a Canonical laptop I'd consider it. Although duct tape may make it a bit hard when I need an item :-)
<mdke> Burgwork: can you approve pete savage for the wiki team? he's done lots of edubuntu stuff
<Burgwork> mdke, will do
<mdke> thanks dude
<mdke> Burgwork: it might be worth changing the owner of that group too
* mdke sees loads of people he doesn't know.
<mdke> Dino Solon A. Agcambot ??
#ubuntu-doc 2006-06-01
<Burgwork> mdke, I am going to deactivate anybody I don't know with a comment to email me
<mdke> that guy is just collecting teams, surely! he has almost as many as Bluekuja 
<mdke> good plan
<Burgwork> how do I change the ownership to myself?
<mdke> I have no idea
<mdke> let's bug kiko or someone
<LaserJock> oh man, wiki LP stuff is nuts
<LaserJock> lots of people have wiki in their LP ID
<LaserJock> and the wiki team is just wikiteam, not ubuntu-wiki (which is "owned" by somebody else)
<Burgwork> I should change the wiki team to ubuntu-wiki
<LaserJock> already taken though
<mdke> eh?
<mdke> blimey
<Burgwork> there is somebody at ubuntu-wiki
<mdke> yeah
<LaserJock> maybe ubuntu-supa-dupa-wiki ?
<Burgwork> mdke, I like collecting teams. Besides, is there any real harm?
<mdke> Burgwork: no problem from me on wiki, I have no idea of your role in the marketing team
<Burgwork> unless I get hit by a bus I have proven myself to be fairly relible
<LaserJock> mdke: wrt to tagging pages for the move, what about a workflow page that is linked to from a doc?
<LaserJock> does the link stay intact?
<LaserJock> and should I move the workflow page?
<mdke> LaserJock: example?
<LaserJock> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EdubuntuDocumentation/EdubuntuCookbook/Worksheet is linked to from https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EdubuntuDocumentation/EdubuntuCookbook
<mdke> up to you
<LaserJock> I mean the Worksheet page is obviously not documentation, but it is used for WIP docs
<mdke> move it if you want. Yeah, links to non-docs from existing docs will break
<mdke> either move it or fix the link to point at the spec
<LaserJock> k
<Burgwork> hmm, no jerome around
<Burgwork> mdke, shall I deactivate Sean from teh doc team?
* LaserJock is worried he will be deactivated :'(
<Burgwork> LaserJock, I accept bribes ;)
<LaserJock> hmm, $150 enough?
<LaserJock> ;-)
<Burgwork> rofl
<Burgwork> LaserJock, have you received any patches from John Patrick Davies?
<Laser_away> stupid meetings :/
<Laser_away> yes, once I believe
<Burgwork> Laser_away, has he ever applied for svn rights?
<Laser_away> he's a Kubuntu guy
<Laser_away> I didn't think so
<mdke> Burgwork: yeah.
<Burgwork> ok, will do
<Burgwork> what should I say?
<Burgwork> lack of sustained contribution?
<Laser_away> <- is really gone now
* Burgwork realizes he almost falls under that
<mdke> Burgwork: no, just inactive for a long time
<theCore> Laser_away: when you will be back, I want to tell you some ideas about the organisation of the Packaging Guide
<Laser_away> theCore: cool, I'll be done in 2 hrs
<theCore> Laser_away: I will try to put them into the Wiki
<Burgwork> theCore, mailing list is a probably a better place for discussion
* theCore is a ML illettrate
<Burgwork> mdke, did you get my query?
<Lathiat> mdke: pon g?
<LaserJock> theCore: still around?
<theCore> LaserJock: yep
<LaserJock> theCore: what did you have in mind?
<theCore> LaserJock: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuPackagingGuide
<LaserJock> hmm, yeah it would be good to start with the basica packaging stuff
<LaserJock> and then move into different common packaging scenarios
<LaserJock> bug fixing (i.e. how to do a debdiff)
<theCore> LaserJock: yeah, back again to the scenarios :)
<LaserJock> well, we might not call them that ;-)
<crimsun>  /join irc, bug bddebian.  Next scenario?
<LaserJock> exactly
<LaserJock> new upstream versions (i.e. making sure to -sa when building the source package)
<LaserJock> sync/merges (better this time)
<LaserJock> I really want to hit patching and debdiffing this time as those are things that a lot of MOTU wannabes do
<LaserJock> maybe we can send a call for items wannabes want to see covered to -motu ML
<theCore> when the freeze end, tomorrow?
<crimsun> wider coverage would be to ubuntu-users-announce, perhaps
<theCore> LaserJock: also, we need to cover another aspect of packaging, personal packaging
<LaserJock> yes
<LaserJock> how to rebuild a package to get debugging symbols is a common one
<LaserJock> the first time I touched a source package was to add readline support to gnuplot
<LaserJock> just for personal use
<theCore> LaserJock: I'm sure there's many admin that would love having an alternative to the common /usr/local
<LaserJock> and don't tell anybody I did that, RMS might have my hide ;-)
<crimsun> we really, really, really need to consider discouraging the {ab,}use of checkinstall
<crimsun> people inevitably end up passing said packages around
<LaserJock> crimsun: right, that's  why I'd like to make an easy guide to doing it right
<LaserJock> the first time I did the readline tweak on gnuplot I used checkinstall
<LaserJock> but I didn't like it too much
<crimsun> unfortunately checkinstall in dapper is ... crippled (at least last I checked)
<LaserJock> and then I found a little recipe that had what to change in debian/rules and then dpkg-buildpackage
<LaserJock> it was really easy
<LaserJock> theCore (and crimsun too if you want): ok, so rework that outline on Ubuntu Packaging Guide to what you would like to see for Edgy
<LaserJock> bbl
<ajmitch> he jsgotangco 
<ajmitch> what's up?
<jsgotangco> im having some .net crap at work
<ajmitch> excellent
* ajmitch spent a month coding for .net CF
<jsgotangco> im doing this in vb.net for an IVR project
<ajmitch> ugh
<ajmitch> at least I was doing C#
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jsgotangco> the mind boggles
<crimsun> it would have boggled more at non-dot-net vb
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco: you nintendo linky no worky
<jsgotangco> i will edit it
<jsgotangco> ive linked it elsewhere now (bbc article)
<Burgundavia> hmm, that sucks
<Burgundavia> muine no longer responds to multimedia keys
<Madpilot> Burgundavia, ping
<Burgundavia> Madpilot: poing
<Madpilot> back on LiveCD - main install still FUBAR'd
<Burgundavia> does X start?
<Madpilot> yes, but GDM wouldn't let me log in
<Madpilot> I was able to log in to console, though
<Burgundavia> what does it say?
<Madpilot> it looks like my network connection is fubar'd
<Burgundavia> hmm, in what way?
<Madpilot> all of the network commands I tried (apt-get update, ping & wget) returned DNS resolving errors
<Burgundavia> ah
<Burgundavia> can you mount your / in the live cd?
<Madpilot> the liveCD is able to get on the net as usual though, so it's not my actual connection...
<Madpilot> yes
<Madpilot> got both my regular partitions mounted - what am I looking for?
<Burgundavia> check your /etc/resolv.conf
<Burgundavia> Madpilot: lets move to #ubuntu-ca
<Bilange> is that the right channel for questions about the main ubuntu.com (updated) website?
<robotgeek> Bilange: sure
<Burgundavia> Bilange: what is the issue?
<Bilange> if no one else reported it, theres a visual flaw in the new design... there is no shadow below the "tabs" div (called sisternav in the html source)
<Bilange> that is, on the latest FF ubuntu repos provides
<Burgundavia> I don't know if that is a visual flaw, but I see it
<Bilange> well, im not sure how I could say that, but thats just asthetics (sp?)
<Bilange> actually, there is no code at all to provide a shadow as far as I looked for it, so maybe that was just forgotten
<robotgeek> 21 errors in validation
<robotgeek> http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ubuntu.com 
<Bilange> this gets worse when trying to load the main page under Ie6/Win98: javascript error popup :S
<LaserJock> Burgundavia: I don't understand the root issue
<Burgundavia> LaserJock: what do you mean?
<LaserJock> don't the docs keep sudo?
<Bilange> javascript error: "line 30 char 5, document.getElementById(...) has a Null value or isnt an object"
<Burgundavia> LaserJock: yes, but these are doc provided by vmware
<LaserJock> Burgundavia: yeah, but you say we put a lot of effort in being consistent
<Burgundavia> LaserJock: yes, because about once a month I have to cleanup a doc on the wiki that says "first enable your root account"
<LaserJock> right, I thought you were saying that you wanted to keep "enable your root account"
<LaserJock> I must have misread
<Burgundavia> nope
<ajmitch> Burgundavia: that's like the selinux developers complaining about docs that start off with 'first disable selinux'
<ajmitch> when it's the buggy code at fault, not selinux :)
<Burgundavia> ouch
<ajmitch> there are some things selinux policy disables on FC5 that apps just shouldn't do
<jsgotangco> perhaps they just understand the deeper intricacies of selinux and brush it off as a feature blocker :/
<jsgotangco> s/just/just don't
<ajmitch> understand?
<ajmitch> right :)
<ajmitch> it's comparable to docs telling people to make a system dir world-writable
<jsgotangco> ive seen a few php web apps that say explicity to turn it off
<ajmitch> yeah
<ajmitch> selinux got a really bad reputation due to FC2's strict policy
<Burgundavia> something Novell has capitalized on quite well
<ajmitch> sure
<ajmitch> but apparmor just doesn't cover things in nearly the same way
<Burgundavia> I think if Ubuntu jumps for SELinux and XGL, it will be interesting
<Burgundavia> each Novell and RH has a technology that is useless
<ajmitch> there are people who want apparmour in edgy
* jsgotangco looks at ajmitch on SELinux
* robotgeek will never run xgl on his ppc box
<ajmitch> robotgeek: a little too slow?
<robotgeek> ajmitch: yeah, ati drivers , suck
<jsgotangco> id probably turn of wobbly windows
<robotgeek> never going to buy another machine with a ati in it
<ajmitch> jsgotangco: yes, one thing selinux lacks much of is documentation :)
<robotgeek> we all hate bad documentation, lol
<ajmitch> yeah, outdated docs are often worse than none at all
<robotgeek> Burgundavia: you use epiphany, right?
<Burgundavia> robotgeek: nothing but
<robotgeek> opening a new tab does not focus cursor in address bar
<Burgundavia> yep, long known bug
<Burgundavia> difficult to fix, because of the way mozilla is built
<robotgeek> heh, why do i run into irritating bugs in whatever "integrated" browser i use </rant>
<Burgundavia> ff unconditionally focuses the address bar, as where as the epip people like to focus the fire text input bar if it is available
<Burgundavia> this is sometimes buggy, due to mozilla code, not epip
<robotgeek> blank tabs even. you know a nice extension/hack to fix this?
<Burgundavia> nope
<robotgeek> with konqueror, i ran into bugs which were "exotic"
<Burgundavia> file a bug
<robotgeek> did that for Konq, no one else was able to confirm
<ajmitch> how does one properly revert a wiki page change?
<Burgundavia> ajmitch: go to get info, click the revert link on the edit
<ajmitch> apart from stripping out the offending text :)
<robotgeek> ajmitch: click on more info, and select revvision and go
<ajmitch> right, I'm not seeing the revert
<Burgundavia> ajmitch: page and edit?
<ajmitch> DownloadEdubuntu
<ajmitch> it's only someone adding 'doh' to it
<ajmitch> nothing major, just stupid :)
* ajmitch sees 'view raw print' in the actions column
<Burgundavia> ajmitch: do you see teh "Get Info: link?
<ajmitch> yes, I'm on that page
<Burgundavia> click the on revert link one edit back
<ajmitch> hm
<ajmitch> looks like I'm logged out
<ajmitch> strange
<ajmitch> silly small fonts :)
<ajmitch> ok, revert happens to show up when I'm using the other browser, which is logged in :)
<Madpilot> hi all
<jsgotangco> hi
<Madpilot> blasted dist-upgrade... the k7 kernel currently in Dapper repos doesn't like either of my onboard net connections - I've got to use a LiveCD to get on the net...
<jsgotangco> ewww
<Madpilot> yeah
<Madpilot> I don't think you can use LiveCDs as CD-repos, can you?
<Madpilot> I need a 386 kernel for a while
<robitaille> you can chroot into your dapper partition from your liveCD session then install that 386 kernel
<robitaille> but not really user friendly...
<Madpilot> I was planning on grabbing the Install ISO tomorrow at my parents, burning that, and mounting it as a cd repo in Synaptic
<robitaille> you could also download the .deb manually for linux-image-...-386 and  linux-restricted...-386 from archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool in the live session, burn them to a CD, or write them to your disk, and install manually using dpkg
<Madpilot> ...
<Madpilot> why didn't I think of that?
<Madpilot> hi Burgundavia
<Burgundavia> hey
* Madpilot watches #ubuntu going totally berserk...
<jsgotangco> why?
<jsgotangco> "is it here" messages?
<Madpilot> yes
<Madpilot> 898 people in #ubuntu right now
<jsgotangco> yay
<highvoltage> are we placing bets again on how high it will go? :P
<Seveas> Madpilot, was 930-940 last night
<Madpilot> Seveas: fun...
<mdke> morning all
<Burgundavia> hey mdke
<bhuvan> hello mdke
<mdke> hey Madpilot, if I prepare a list of the books and languages we're going to put on lulu, will you be able to take charge of the covers?
<mdke> bhuvan: hiya :
<Burgundavia> bhuvan: long time, so see
<mdke> :)
<bhuvan> Burgundavia, i use to be online and stay listening :)
<Madpilot> mdke: sure, I've got some time this weekend, hopefully.
<mdke> Madpilot: perfect, I'll do that soon then and we can get that sorted too :)
<bhuvan> mdke: new-help.u.c is a new server or it's a virtual host in h.u.c ?
<mdke> bhuvan: it's on one of the Ubuntu servers
<mdke> same one as wiki.u.c. in fact
<bhuvan> ok
<bhuvan> i assume, we are going to migrate frozen pages from w.u.c to n-help.u.c and set edittable only by wikiteam members
<mdke> no, all documentation from wiki.u is going to be moved to that server at help.ubuntu.com/community
<mdke> and it will be editable as before
<bhuvan> ok
<lastnode> mdke, i just started translating some stuff in rosetta. how does that work for docs?
<mdke> lastnode: you can find docs at ubuntu-docs, kubuntu-docs, and xubuntu-docs.
<bhuvan> mdke, so what's the purpose of n-help.u.c ?
<lastnode> mdke, mailing lists?
<mdke> bhuvan: it will become help.u
<mdke> lastnode: those are packages in rosetta
<lastnode> mdke, oh, right.
<bhuvan> mdke, ok
<lastnode> also, is there a standard font to be used?
<lastnode> im using the (yet uncertified) unicode font for my language
<mdke> lastnode: while translating? no...
<lastnode> mdke, im using Sinhala Unicode
<mdke> ok.
<bhuvan> mdke, can we schedule a team meeting to discuss documents for edgy and other stuff you/others may have ? 
<mdke> good idea
<mdke> lastnode: listen, I have to go to work, if you have some more questions, mail ubuntu-translators and I will get back to you
<lastnode> mdke, ok, thanks :)
<mdke> bye
<lastnode> bye
<bhuvan> so, i'll update https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/MeetingAgenda with what i have ...
<Madpilot> it's been months since we had a docteam meeting
<bhuvan> any input on date & time ?
<bhuvan> Madpilot, yes
<Burgundavia> meetings, we don't have those
<jsgotangco> bah! who needs them!
<jsgotangco> :)
<bhuvan> day jun 16 (fri) - will it work ?
* bhuvan is going for lunch
<Madpilot> nice, the frontpage of ubuntu.com has finally been updated
<Burgundavia> yep
<jsgotangco> yeah with a nice asian-guy for support (jbailey)
<jsgotangco> heh
<rob> the updated web site rocks
<Burgundavia> that it does
<rob> that menu thing makes things nice and easy to find
<highvoltage> jsgotangco: is that jbaily? i always thought he was english :)
<jsgotangco> hehe
<jsgotangco> i also thought he had long hair too
* jsgotangco grins
<jjesse> apparently there are/were a lot of typos in the release notes for kubuntu, didn't realize that so i apologize
<jjesse> need to spell check my work better
<jjesse> also some don't like how it is worded :( wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuDapperKnownProblems 
<mdke> yes, we've been asked to review the style
<jjesse> i wish the style was reviewed before release, the notes haven't changed "style" since at least flight3 or so
<jsgotangco> jjesse: we should invite you to the elite blatant-and-awkward LP team
<jjesse> sorry a little frustrated this morning 
<jjesse> just that they been "finished" for what seems a couple of months and no one complained about it
<jsgotangco> mmm??
<jjesse> The release notes (help:/kubuntu/krelease-notes/index.html) are full of typos ("Recomendations", "regulary", "preditctably", "Ubuquity", "seperate", etc.), read unprofessionally ("Wahoo a sweet new installer is available ...!!!!", "FREE of charge!!!!", etc.), and appear to be confused in other ways (a paragraph for "a sweet new installer" that talks about features in Breezy, and then a separate paragraph for Ubiquity which is the actual new installer). C
<jsgotangco> jjesse: it can't be helped, you were probably busy with work
<jsgotangco> real life takes preference over volunteer work
<jjesse> jsgotangco: no one told me
<jsgotangco> jjesse: that's a shame, even in kubuntu?
<jsgotangco> we actually wrote the edubuntu release annoucement in a 1 1/2 days
<jjesse> correct
<jsgotangco> you could probably ask Riddell for access to the kubuntu website to fix it up
<jsgotangco> (that's what we did for edubuntu using drupal)
<jjesse> well i'll rewrite them tonight and send them to riddell and the list to get included in dapper-updates, just frustrated that they were out there for so long and no one complained
<jsgotangco> yeah i can relate to that
<mdke> jjesse: don't worry about it dude, it's no problem fixing them up
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jjesse> mdke: i know sorry just a little frustrated this morning for some reason
<mdke> no worries
<highvoltage> how's the wiki move going?
<jsgotangco> its happening?
<highvoltage> jsgotangco: i don't know. i thought it was going to happen today.
<jjesse> grin on the official ubuntu release annoucnement under the book section they spelled my name wrong
<jjesse> http://www.ubuntu.com/news/606released
<jjesse> look for jonathan jessie  :)
<jsgotangco> lol oh well
<mgalvin> jjesse: what is the correct spelling?
<jjesse> no 'i'    jesse
<mgalvin> oh right, duh, hang on i'll fix it
<jjesse> grin thanks mgalvin
<mgalvin> jjesse: np, it should be fixed now
<jjesse> i find that funny, at least my last name wasn't first which is another common mistake
<mgalvin> people always say my last name glavin instead galvin b/c there is a baseball player tom glavin and people just have that name in their heads :-/
<LaserJock> oh sweet, anybody seen Mark's blog
<mgalvin> back to the installing software bit quickly, could we not use the same technique used in many books... standardize on using one command like apt or aptitude so that we can still copy paste AND also provide the link as we are doing now so that users who don't know how to use or don't want to use our standard can learn how to use something else
<LaserJock> I suppose but we will have lots of issues with choosing apt-get vs. aptitude
<LaserJock> or some other CLI package manager that comes around
<mgalvin> well, we (jeff jerome and i) have been sticking with apt if that carries any weight at all
* mgalvin is not trying to push one or the other
<jjesse> and on the kubuntu side we standarized on adept
<mgalvin> time for beer indeed
<mgalvin> well, after work :)
<LaserJock> yeah, but there are people (we have one on the wiki) who will refuse to accept apt-get
<LaserJock> and really there are advantages to aptitude
<mgalvin> hmm, providing both would be silly i guess?
<mgalvin> there are
<LaserJock> yes, because the lines would be the same
<LaserJock> it is so irritating that people can't just substitute in their desired one
<LaserJock> apt-get install foo bar
<LaserJock> or aptitude install foo bar
<mgalvin> what drawbacks might aptitude have opposed to apt-get
<mgalvin> ug, thats a management type question, eww, i feel dirty
<LaserJock> I don't really know of any except it does install Recommended packages by default
<LaserJock> but if you do aptitude -r install foo bar
<LaserJock> it is essentiall the same
<mgalvin> which isn't always correct
<mgalvin> b/c of the diff btwn us and debian
<mgalvin> lemme see if i can find an example, i know i have run into them
<LaserJock> well, if maintainers used Recommends properly it probably wouldn't be much of a problem, but ...
<mgalvin> true, yea a big but
<LaserJock> anyway, aptitude is just a souped up apt-get
<LaserJock> a lot of devs like it
<LaserJock> anyway, it really is quite similar to the emacs vs. vim battle
<LaserJock> people get all hot about it but it really comes down to whatever you prefer and feel most comfortable with
<highvoltage> LaserJock: what's that?
<LaserJock> that's why I prefer that we not give a line
<LaserJock> highvoltage: apt-get vs. aptitude in docs
<highvoltage> aaah
<LaserJock> mgalvin: I started out with apt-get lines in the Packaging Guide and that was the first thing people complained about
<mgalvin> i suggested a standardization route but anyway we go has pros and cons
<LaserJock> I agree
<mgalvin> ah
<LaserJock> I personally like being able to cut-n-paste the lines from a guide
<mgalvin> can't please everyone
* mgalvin *shrugs*
<LaserJock> yeah
<LaserJock> so basically we make *everyone* a little mad so that we don't make significant amounts of people *really* mad ;-)
<mgalvin> so we shoot ourselves in both feet, but we can still walk :)
<LaserJock> exactly ;-)
<kermitX_> apt-get in docs makes sense as it's the most accessible? vs aptitude/synaptic/adept
<highvoltage> what is used, generally in doc, apt-get?
<mgalvin> highvoltage: until recently yes
<LaserJock> if Ubuntu did standarize around a package management it would be different
<jjesse> it depedns on ubuntu or kubuntu
<jjesse> for kubuntu the docs should refer to adept
* kermitX_ prefers aptitude above all others, though.
<mgalvin> maybe we should present this issue to the devs or the TB/CC?
<mgalvin> they would be able to pick the standard
<LaserJock> I don't think they will want to
<LaserJock> because they themselves probably use different ones
<mgalvin> don't know if it is even worth bothering them with at this point
<highvoltage> i would think it's TB's responsibility to provide feedback
<LaserJock> it's the TB's responsibilty to make decisions
<highvoltage> didn't mdz post to the doc and devel mailing list a while back saying something along the lines of docteam should work closer to the tech team to make sure that all documentation is technically sounds?
<LaserJock> if they don't feel that a decision needs to be made they won't touch it
<highvoltage> s/sounds/sound
<mgalvin> yea, they will likely want to not offend as well, but might have additional thoughts
<highvoltage> ah, i see.
<highvoltage> how boring of them :)
<LaserJock> I think we could at least ask the TB if they think it is something that they would like to discuss
<LaserJock> highvoltage is right that we need to work closely with the devs
<mgalvin> can't hurt to ask
<LaserJock> no
<highvoltage> even if they could just give a bit of feedback, it would be nice.
<Burgwork> highvoltage, yes, he did
<mgalvin> indeed
<Burgwork> it is mostly the wiki dcos
<LaserJock> currently though, I think it is sort of nice the way we do it
<highvoltage> apoligies for the confusion and ignorance on my part, but did the wiki move happen today? and was it scheduled for today?
<mgalvin> yea, i only think about it because i work with, um, well, people i know prefer copy/paste
<mgalvin> anyway, anyone object to at least presenting the issue to the TB
<LaserJock> my only point would be that we should discuss it within the team and then have a cohesive spec or something to bring to the TB
<Burgwork> mgalvin, what, how we talk about installation? you want to take that to the TB?
<LaserJock> Burgwork: he would like to ask the TB if we should standarize around a package manager, I think
<mgalvin> mostly yes
<mgalvin> Burgwork: i like how in books a standard method it followed and the other option methods are discussed elsewhere...
<Burgwork> hmm
<Burgwork> the problem is, what standard method? apt-get or synaptic?
<mgalvin> and being able to copy paste commands is useful
<Burgwork> for those who have commandline experience, yes
<mgalvin> i was thinking a standard for the cli
<mgalvin> not sure about the gui aspect
<mgalvin> there are so many now, and g-a-i added another
<Burgwork> that basically leads us down the path of recommending the CLI
<highvoltage> i would think that it's synaptic, since ubuntu should allow users to do everything the gui way. but command line is important, you don't always have the luxury of a gui. either for servers, or for troubleshooting.
<Burgwork> I like the current method
<highvoltage> sorry if i'm just making noise here :)
<Burgwork> no, you are not
<Burgwork> hence why we shouldn't mention any one method
<mgalvin> i am largely referring to processes that require the cli
<Burgwork> which are those?
<Burgwork> installing apache? I can do that from synaptic
<LaserJock> if X breaks
<Burgwork> I am saying it is bettter to have one way of talking about it, a have that consistent
<LaserJock> or you need to ssh into the box
<Burgwork> in that case, they should know
<Burgwork> there are too many cases for us to special case anything
<LaserJock> well, sure
<mgalvin> but  you can't config apache in a gui... many wiki does do... example: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PostfixBasicSetupHowto
<mgalvin> you can't do that in a gui
<Burgwork> mgalvin, we should also be saying "Edit X file", not "sudo nano X.file"
<LaserJock> I think the problem is having 2 different audiences
<LaserJock> CLI and GUI
<Burgwork> just as we don't prejudice for any installation method, we don't prejudice against any text editor
<LaserJock> some prefer one over the other
<Burgwork> the former can figure it and the latter will thank us for not driving them to tehj CLI
<LaserJock> I would say though that people who are used to CLI will be annoyed with it
<LaserJock> "why didn't they just put the line so I can cut-n-paste"
<Burgwork> I would rather annoy the CLI people than the GUI people
<Burgwork> if I had to annoy somebody
<LaserJock> I don't think you have to annoy the GUI people
<Burgwork> apt-get install blah annoys the GUI people
<LaserJock> only if that is the only option
<Burgwork> what else do you want to do? mention every way?
<mgalvin> haha, yea, i am trying to get us to think of a middle ground
<Burgwork> either apt-get install blah or just install blah through synaptic
<Burgwork> uhh, no
<LaserJock> I can see using the current method and then adding an apt-get line in a <screen> beneath it
<LaserJock> but maybe that would be confusing
<Burgwork> yes, it would
<mgalvin> how do others do it? take for example back in the ubuntuguide.org days... all apt-get install... and everyone loved it
<Burgwork> uh,, no
<Burgwork> CLI people loved it
<Burgwork> grandma did not
<mgalvin> ok, true
<mgalvin> i am thinking in terms of cli people...
<highvoltage> does it actually say sudo nano X.file somewhere? that's nasty!
<Burgwork> CLI people are louder int he community
<Burgwork> yo' mamma don't do no IRC
<mgalvin> cli people loved it so why let a few peoples complaints ruin a proven liked (but seemingly the majority) method
<highvoltage> what we do in edubuntu is, say press alt+f2 in gnome, then type gksudo "gedit file.txt"
<Burgwork> highvoltage, we are trying to get away from that as well
<highvoltage> understandably so, it is a bit complicated :/
<Burgwork> yep
<highvoltage> if there were a menu entry 'root gedit' (or whatever you want to call it), it would be easier, but then again, also more dangerous
<Burgwork> if you look at most professionally written and GOOD  help, they don't prejiduce either
<mgalvin> Burgwork: do you have any particular examples in mind?
<Burgwork> mgalvin, not currently. All the places I have seen are books written for average users
<Burgwork> if you write for a average users, the advanced ones will come along
<mgalvin> sure, my main argument was that many book pick a method (that i have seen) and use it... look at madduck's debian book, or even mako deb bible (doesn't it use apt-get) iirc
<mgalvin> i know martins does
<Burgwork> those are written for debian
<mgalvin> and we are not to far from that
<LaserJock> I agree that we can't just put CLI lines
<Burgwork> we have picked a method, it is called "tell people what package to install""
<LaserJock> I think the majority of users do not use CLI all the time
<highvoltage> i have a suggestion
<LaserJock> and to some extent you need to cater to the least common denominator
<Burgwork> highvoltage, we don't do suggestions here ;)
<highvoltage> you have a two page document, explaining how to do it with synaptic, aptitude, apt-get, kynaptic, adept, etc.
<Burgwork> yep, that already exists
<Burgwork> and then you link it?
<mgalvin> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/InstallingSoftware
<highvoltage> then you tell the users to install package X, how they want to do it is up to them, they can refer to that doc if they are unsire
<Burgwork> we just need to be more agressive about linking that
<highvoltage> (unsure)
<LaserJock> highvoltage: that is what we are doing now
<highvoltage> then you never have to tell a user to apt-get, or to synaptic
<highvoltage> ok, sorry then.
<LaserJock> np
<mgalvin> my main concern is that copy paste commands are easier
<Burgwork> np
<LaserJock> mgalvin: but only to people that would use them
<Burgwork> mgalvin, easier for a certain class of user, not for everybody
<Burgwork> be careful with blanket statements
<mgalvin> i certainly agree with that
<mgalvin> true
<LaserJock> I really really think we could use an Ubuntu user survey for this kind of thing
<mgalvin> ok, i concede for now, /me shoots himself in both feet and hobbles away :)
<LaserJock> because we really have no idea what our users use
<highvoltage> well, you can't copy and paste in the gui tools, and apt-get install isnt' exactly much to type out
<Burgwork> LaserJock, that would just confirm that current active Ubuntu users love apt-get, because mom and pop wouldn't respond
<LaserJock> Burgwork: well, we need a real survey
<Burgwork> yep
<mgalvin> +1
<Burgwork> surveys are hard and expensive to do correctly
<LaserJock> I don't know if Canoncial has done anything
<Burgwork> plus potentially annoying to users
<LaserJock> I haven't seen it
<Burgwork> nor have I
<mgalvin> fridge, apt-get | aptitude | synatpic | g-a-i | adept | don't know
<LaserJock> but we make decisions all the time with "most users" but in reality we have no idea
<LaserJock> no fridge won't work
<LaserJock> again, that would tend to oversample the devs/nerds ;-)
<Burgwork> mgalvin, self selecting surveys at the fridge will merely reinforce that the current active set love apt-get
<mgalvin> true
<LaserJock> even doing a forum poll would slant the outcome
<Burgwork> that would be worse
<LaserJock> you have to make sure you are trully sampling the population of Ubuntu users
<mgalvin> shipit could send millions of postage paid postcards
<mgalvin> haha, kidding
<LaserJock> it is expensive
<Burgwork> I think we just need to be smart about it
<LaserJock> my uni did a survey to see if we wanted different ID cards, they spent close to $1 millon for the whole process
<mgalvin> gesh
<LaserJock> that included more than just the survey
<LaserJock> but it was quite a bit of it
<mgalvin> possibly something simple on the main website somewhere, much wider exposure
<Burgwork> that would do
<LaserJock> perhaps
<LaserJock> I think it would have to be a combination
<LaserJock> website, shipit, maybe even something in the install
<mgalvin> sure, it couldn't hurt to put it in a few places
<jjesse> not in the install
<mgalvin> hey...
<mgalvin> oh never mind
<LaserJock> I think it would have to go in the install in one form or another
<mgalvin> well, maybe this is dumb, would popularity-contest maybe even be of some use
<LaserJock> in a way
<LaserJock> not so much in its current form I don't think
<mgalvin> right, i figured
<LaserJock> you have to know about it to turn it on
<LaserJock> wich automatically throws out a lot of users
<apokryphos> which is the main URL now for users to use/access the documentation?
<LaserJock> help.ubuntu.com
<apokryphos> help.u.c still has instructions for kubuntu breezy
<LaserJock> it will be switched, I believe
<mgalvin> brb
<LaserJock> apokryphos: for now I think it is help.u.c/6.06 or something
<apokryphos> same for ubuntu
<apokryphos> ok
<apokryphos> nice, looks very good; I'll link to that for now =)
<mdke_> evening
<LaserJock> it should be switched very soon I would guess
<LaserJock> mdke_ would know ;-)
<apokryphos> evenin' =)
<mdke_> whoosh that is long scrollback
<LaserJock> mdke_: apt-get vs aptitude again :-)
<Burgwork> mdke_, bugger at the Naaman thing
<mdke_> eugh ffs
<mdke_> Burgwork: yeah, it'll be alright though.
<apokryphos> as I always say, they each have their uses ;-)
<robotgeek> true that apokryphos 
<apokryphos> hi robotgeek :)
<mdke_> that's not the point though, the point is that there are a million package managers, we should be neutral
<robotgeek> smart or whatever in edgy too
<apokryphos> but it's more practical to recommend/explain the 'official' ones
<apokryphos> yeah, smart's great 8)
<LaserJock> there are no 'official' ones
<apokryphos> LaserJock: sure there are; smart in breezy and dapper is unofficial
<apokryphos> it's not shipped in main
<mdke> apokryphos: yes, we do that.
<LaserJock> hmm, I guess being in Main would make it a bit more official
<mdke> but that doesn't mean that we should adopt one when documenting a procedure
<LaserJock> I'm a MOTU so I tend to see Universe as offical too ;-)
<apokryphos> sure, but it's technically not "Ubuntu official"
<LaserJock> I wouldn't say that
<LaserJock> it isn't supported by Canonical
<jjesse> can i ask a silly question:  is it really worth it?
<mdke> that's the problem with using the word official
<LaserJock> yep
<jjesse> is this whole discussion worth having?
<LaserJock> jjesse: is what worth it?
<apokryphos> LaserJock: /msg ubotu components :)
<mdke> apokryphos: his point is that you are adopting a completely subjective meaning of the word "official"
<mdke> you're both right
<LaserJock> apokryphos: so
<mgalvin> jjesse: apt vs. apituted?
<LaserJock> it doesn't say that Universe is unoffical
<apokryphos> we're individually right in two different senses, but I wouldn't go as far as saying that it's completely subjective
<LaserJock> just that Canonical won't support it
<apokryphos> LaserJock: it says that it comes with no gurantees, whereas main comes with "fully supported"
<LaserJock> so
<mdke> apokryphos: that's one meaning of the word "official"
<LaserJock> Canonical != Ubuntu
<mdke> there are loads of others
<LaserJock> anyway, it is somewhat just semantics
<apokryphos> LaserJock: Canonical is a sponsor of Ubuntu
<mdke> meh
<LaserJock> again, so what?
<mdke> ok, you guys take this to -offtopic
<apokryphos> it in itself doesn't give entire guarantee for either I'd say
<mdke> let's use this channel for docs
<LaserJock> sorry mdke 
<apokryphos> sorry, yes :)
* Burgwork hands mdke a whip
* mdke whips Burgwork 
<apokryphos> mdke: is there going to be a switch on h.u.c to have dapper there, or should I link to /6.06?
<mdke> apokryphos: yes, there is
* Burgwork wimpers
<apokryphos> hm ok; I'll link to there for the timebeing
<mdke> apokryphos: both will work
<apokryphos> thanks
<mdke> links to the breezy docs will break though
<robotgeek> ouch
<mdke> not a lot we can do about that
<apokryphos> mdke: were they always at plain h.u.c, is that why?
<mdke> apokryphos: sorry?
<apokryphos> mdke: as in, where will breezy docs be in the future?
<mdke> help.ubuntu.com/5.10
<apokryphos> ok, I see; thank you
<Burgwork> apokryphos, in general, we support docs as long as the release itself is supported
<mgalvin> maybe a little late but should i bother to put the release notes in svn (not that they are finally done)
<mgalvin> s/not/now/
<mdke> mgalvin: I guess not, website and wiki sound fine to me. We won't ship it in the docs at this stage, I wouldn't have thought
<marble> Hello all, I think I found a bug in some breezy docs, but the dapper ones don't seem to be in a similar place (yet), so was wondering how to check if the same problem's there or not?
<mgalvin> ok, the devs just got to add to it the past two days so it took a while, i am fine just leaving it where it is too
* mdke nods
<mdke> marble: System->Help->SystemDocumentation
<Burgwork> mdke, here is an idea of edgy. Kill the help menu and move it into a better frontpage for yelp
<LaserJock> mdke: kubuntu and edubuntu release notes are shipped, no?
<mdke> LaserJock: I think so yeah
<mdke> Burgwork: I would think moving the book and online documentation links would be essential, not sure about the other two
<Burgwork> hmm
<Burgwork> as long as it a clear there is s single place to read docs
<marble> mdke: thanks, but that seems to be different docs to what's on http://ftp.ubuntulinux.org/ubuntu/dists/breezy/main/installer-i386/current/doc/manual (at least on the machine I have kubuntu on)
<mdke> marble: yes, that's an installer guide which comes from the archive.
<mdke> marble: check out installation-guide for dapper
<marble> mdke: sorry to be slow, but where is that? I tried putting 'dapper' in place of breezy in that url
<marble> mdke: basically part way through, it seems to switch to a debian install guide, rather than an ubuntu one (in the appendix for installing in an existing linux system with debootstrap)
<mdke> try installing installation-guide
<mdke> dunno
<mdke> oh yeah, here http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/install/
<jjesse> any way we can get that guide written by the doc team instead?
<mdke> jjesse: no, I can't any any way
<marble> mdke: ah, thanks. The problem seems to be fixed in that version too. Sorry for the noise.
<mdke> urgh. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UserDocumentation?action=diff
<apokryphos> mdke: what's the problem? :)
<Burgwork> mdke, yay! yet another one
<dsas> heh, they're soliciting opinion for it in #ubuntu-offtopic
<mdke> bleh
<apokryphos> dsas: those mortals!
<dsas> apokryphos: ?
<dsas> oh, it makes sense now.
<dsas> (sort of)
<Burgwork> mdke, I will clean up that wiki page later tonight if needed
<mdke> good man
<Burgwork> I can be the bad cop to your good cop
<mdke> always ;)
<apokryphos> mdke: FrequentlyAskedQuestions? 
<apokryphos> currently redirects to UserDocumentation
<Burgwork> apokryphos, that was an old doc we killed a while back
<apokryphos> can teach people what faq is in the meantime ;-)
<apokryphos> Burgwork: right; think it's time to resurrect it? =)
<apokryphos> well, I guess I'll put it on CommonlyAskedQuestions for now and if it fits the bill then perhaps it could go there
<mgalvin> just a heads up, jsgotangco, Riddell and myself started https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter in case anyone is interested
<mdke> apokryphos: CommonQuestions works
* apokryphos heads off to learn wiki anchors
<mdke> mgalvin: cool
<mdke> post to a few mailing lists about it?
<mgalvin> was going to after we get one issue done first
<mgalvin> just figured i would make sure you guys all know we are working on it in case anyone else want to help out too
<mdke> -doc mailing list? not every reads here, some might help out
<dsas> Is this the ubuntu-traffic style thing?
<mgalvin> mdke: true, i'll send an email in a little while
<dsas> s/the/a
<apokryphos> hm, I'm not sure of the syntax I should be using for declaring a macro Anchor link. It says they should be of the form [[Anchor(anchorname)] ] , but what if I don't want the anchorname and the link text to be the same? 
<mgalvin> dsas: sort of
<mgalvin> hopefully this will last a while though :)
<mdke> apokryphos: can't you just use a table of contents?
<apokryphos> mdke: I'm not sure it'd be really ideal
<mdke> what are you trying to do?
<apokryphos> especially since the actual content is an faq list
<apokryphos> mdke: have all the questions at the top (perhaps in sections), and for them to link out to the answers
<dsas> apokryphos: Sounds exactly like a ToC to me.
<apokryphos> a table of contents isn't really suitable for long questions, I think
<apokryphos> ok, I'll do it, but I think the outcome may look odd
<mdke> it will work if you do it right
<mdke> use third level headings for the questions, and give plenty of horizontal space to your table
<mdke> and don't have any first or second level headings
<Burgwork> mdke, you had better get yourself hired by Canonical
<LaserJock> yep
<mdke> Burgwork: eh?
<mdke> what's happened?
<Burgwork> mdke, nothing, you just need to get hired
<LaserJock> mdke: did you see Mark's blog entry about the release?
<mdke> yep
<mdke> was nice
<LaserJock> yes, and well deserved, IMHO
<LaserJock> you guys did great and I don't think it would have been possible without you mdke
<Burgwork> mgalvin, can you make certain to forward to the marketing team as well?
<Burgwork> mgalvin, I already did for this email
<mgalvin> i will in the future, thanks
<Burgwork> np
<Burgwork> wow. #ubuntu is still over 1000 people
<mgalvin> dang
<Burgwork> I remember when #ubuntu used to be 200 people at the most
<LaserJock> 1000?!?!
<Burgwork> LaserJock, it hit that about 2am our time this morning
<LaserJock> wow
<Burgwork> LaserJock, you are NV, right?
<LaserJock> but of course IRC isn't useful for non-devs ;-)
<LaserJock> Burgwork: yep
<Burgwork> ok
<jenda> mgalvin: ping
<mgalvin> jenda: pong
<jenda> Hey - just read that mailing list post about the Weekly Newsletter.
<jenda> Do you know about the Ubuntu Magazine?
<mgalvin> it sound familiar (from a while ago) but i have not seen any issues of it
<jenda> It never had any.
<mgalvin> ah, that would be why :)
<jenda> Yes, could be a factor. But there has been discussion to revive it on the Marketing Team forum.
<jenda> And there is at least one individual who's seriously working on getting it under weigh
<jenda> lemme get you a link
<mgalvin> cool, sounds very interesting, whats the url of the forum?
<mgalvin> took the words from my fingers :)
<jenda> www.ubuntupeople.com
* mgalvin looks
<jenda> mgalvin: You'll see that there are things that are old, then 5 months of total silence, then a new life.
<jenda> Whatever is older than April is not really valid anymore.
<dsas> that's a whole new set of forums I didn't know of.
<jenda> (Since it's basically a whole new team with only 4 members who stayed)
<jenda> dsas: the team's december death would be a reason for that ;)
<jenda> mgalvin: Whatever happens, the efforts behind both projects should cooperate, or better - merge. I think both projects have identical goals.
<Burgwork> new teams tend to need to, pheonix-like, rise from the ashes at least once before they really get off the gournd
<jenda> true
<jenda> I've seen that happen several times (eg. easyubuntu)
<Burgwork> the doc, -ca, -qc, nun and marketing teams have all done that
<jenda> mgalvin: have a look at http://digitalbyond.net/~ubuntumag/?q=node/1
<dsas> the ubuntu magazine site sounds like the fridge to me. Am I missing something?
<jenda> hmm... I'm hearing a point there.
<Burgwork> jenda, didn't I argue the same thing. Or was that fridge and spreadubuntu?
<jenda> no, it was ubuntu.com and SU 
<Burgwork> ah, that
<Burgwork> :)
<jenda> BTW, Jane let me know she's been following SU and supports the project 
<Burgwork> jenda, I support a SU projectt as well. I just disagree on a few details
<jenda> Burgwork: Well please then, let yourself be heard!
<Burgwork> we did talk a while about focus
<jenda> Er... I mean. No. You may not disagree.
<Burgwork> lol
<mgalvin> jenda: sorry had to step away for a min, looking now
<jenda> Ok... you think you could write it down and post it at the forum - or give to me to post at the forum with your name on it? (It's not just me who is busy on that - Lloyd is doing much more work than I am.)
<jenda> dsas: One difference I found is that the Mag plans to be printable.
<jenda> -it would go by issues (not necessarily an advantage...)
<mgalvin> jenda: the newsletter is meant to be weekly and something sabdfl, JaneW, etc... would like to read as a management type of review
<dsas> jenda: You could always submit articles to be on the fridge and then cherry pick ones you want to put in PDF. It seems like there's a lot of hard work being done to make a printable fridge :)
<mgalvin> i do think however that some or possibly much of what goes into the weekly letters could also make its way into a mag
<mgalvin> jenda: sorry, a little busy at the moment, let me read the rest of what has gone on thus far and i will also talk to jsgotangco and Riddell about it
<jenda> dsas: you don't print on fridges - yo uuse fridge magnets
<jenda> OK
<mgalvin> JaneW and mdz where actually the ones who suggested a consolidated weekly newsletter so i may talk to them about it as well
<mgalvin> not to say we can't work together, i am sure we can in some way, just not sure how yet :)
<jenda> Hehe...
<jenda> Well - in any case, it seems to me that between the Fridge, Ubunt Mag and the newsletter, there is bound to be something redundant ;)
<jenda> Ok, feel free to take your time ;)
<mdke_> stupid fricking blog
<mdke_> anyone use pyblosxom?
<mgalvin> nope, wordpress here
<mgalvin> jenda: ok, cool, i'll get back to you on it very soon
<Bilange> well.... maybe the newsletter idea could be used to give a weekly summary of the posts on the fridge?
<jenda> mgalvin: OK, sounds great
<jenda> hmm
<mgalvin> Bilange: fridge posts don't happen that often :-/
<jenda> well, actually - i like dsas' idea of a 'printable' fridge.
<dsas> mdke: date converts timestampes
<Bilange> mgalvin:  I dont go there much often, to tell the truth
<mgalvin> me neither, since its not that active usually
<dsas> well if the magazine team is going to be writing lots of articles then there will be more stuff on the fridge :). if you're modelling after gnome journal then that's monthly anyway I think.
<mgalvin> i do however tend to check it once a week or so if i remember
<Bilange> since there's not much posting in the fridge, that would make a great candidate for setting up a newsletter, since the "official" fridge is more devlopers centered than, for example, ubuntu-fr fridge, which is more newbie centric (howtos, releases, etc)
<dsas> isn't the fridge intended to be user-centric though?
<Burgwork> dsas, fridge is developer/community centric
<Burgwork> the magazine, afaik, looks to be more user centric
<Burgwork> think, fridge is for you, magazine is for mother
<mgalvin> and the newsletter is almost sort of for management
<mgalvin> as per my discussion with jane
<dsas> Ah ok, that makes sense.
<mgalvin> think more like a company newsletter
<Burgwork> but also for community/developers
<mgalvin> right
<Bilange> all in all, my idea was: a fridge going user centric with a large amount of posts, moving the current kind of fridge posts on a newsletter (since theres not too much traffic, its not gonna fill up one's mailbox), then make a meltingpot, a best of both of these into a magazine
<mgalvin> the magazine would almost certainly be a melting pot, i just don't know how active the fridge would be
<mgalvin> we'd have to talk to the maintainers of it
<Burgwork> hey pygi 
<pygi> hey Burgwork :)
<mgalvin> hi pygi
<pygi> hey mgalvin 
<jenda> back - sorry for missing out a bit... GNAA attack in #easyubuntu :(
<mgalvin> GNAA?
<rob> yep
<rob> oh, internet troll group
<dsas> mgalvin: the mention of what that stands for will get you booted from ubuntu channels. they go round flooding people en masse and things
<mgalvin> ah
* mgalvin gets out his beating stick and hunts for trolls :)
<Burgwork> http://it.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=187191&cid=15444713 <-- how about this one?
<mgalvin> wtf?
* mgalvin gets a bigger stick
<Burgwork> yep, dealing with a troll on the VLUG discuss mailing list
<jenda> err... yes, the Ubuntu Magazine is intended purely as user-centric. For the people who have _just_ come to Ubuntu and _just_ fell in love with it...
<mdke_> Lathiat: how about now?
<mgalvin> later all
<pygi> jenda, where is that u-m?
<jenda> err
<jenda> not sure what'ya mean: #ubuntu-marketing , www.ubuntupeople.com
<pygi> jenda, ubuntu magazine
<jenda> ah, sorry
<jenda> j'sec
<jenda> there is none, really - it's just a project under weigh: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuMagazine
<jenda> Has been tried and fail repeatedly, as can be seen there
<pygi> jenda, you manage the ubuntupeople stuff?
<pygi> wrong spelling:  www.spreaubuntu.org :)
<jenda> not really, no, I just try to get it together
<jenda> that too
<jenda> http://www.ubuntupeople.com/file/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4&start=70
<pygi> magazine can be assembled, that is no problem
<jenda> err...
<jenda> bad page there
<pygi> I even think I could get people for that
<jenda> but it's the right forum
<jenda> that would be great :)
<pygi> not sure it's worth it tho :-/
<jenda> I think it is, really
<jenda> check out that thread (last page or two)
<pygi> jenda, will do
<pygi> you have  any more detailed plan btw.? frequency of getting "out", bla, bla?
<jenda> teh wiki
<jenda> 2 months is planned by digitalmouse (I'd prefer shorter periods)
<pygi> well, it seems you started work on it?
<pygi> jenda, 20/05/200
<pygi> 2006*
<jenda> not me, but yes
<jenda> work has resumed
<pygi> so no problem then ? :)
<jenda> nope, none :)
<pygi> nice then :)
<dsas> good.
#ubuntu-doc 2006-06-02
<kbrooks> ping :-)
<LaserJock> ping who?
<kbrooks> LaserJock: 
<kbrooks> can i talk about easyubuntu iin here for a quick moment, mdke?
<LaserJock> it's a lot quiter in here than #ubuntu ;-)
<mdke> kbrooks: is it related to documentation?
<kbrooks> LaserJock: #easyubuntu
<mdke> that sounds more sensible
<jsgotangco> GOOOOOOOOOOODDDDD MORNIIIIIINGGGGGGGGGGG DOCCCCCCCCC TEAAAAAMMMMMMMM
<mdke> morning there
<mdke> in a good mood eh?
<jsgotangco> its actually 7am
<Burgwork> hey jsgotangco 
<Burgwork> I am question to ask you, but now I forgot it
<jsgotangco> hmm??
<jsgotangco> would scrollback help?
<jsgotangco> i still have an hour to spare before i do some real work
<Burgwork> nope
<jsgotangco> hmm..
<jsgotangco> reading scrollback, if mdke doesn't mind ditching is profession, he'd sure make a good employee for canonical
<mdke> this is the difficulty
<mdke> I'd have to move profession, what would my new profession be?
<jsgotangco> doc writer?
<jsgotangco> heh
<Burgwork> Documentation Team Manager
<jsgotangco> JaneW just resigned just in case you didn't know
<mdke> jsgotangco: shame about that. is she ok?
<jsgotangco> she has a blog about it
<mdke> url?
* jsgotangco hunts for it in his list
<jsgotangco> although it would be expected that you do more for sure (and probably have more than 1 team role)
<mdke> well, I'd like to do something with locoteams. But I mean, what would my long term profession be? If I left them, what would I do
<jsgotangco> http://janewsblog.blogspot.com/2006/05/so-im-leaving-not-getting-on-jet-plane.html
<jsgotangco> mdke: yeah, that's the dilemna
<LaserJock> well, whatever it was you could get away with INAL ;-)
<LaserJock> IANAL I mean
<jsgotangco> lol
<mdke> so sounds like Mr JaneW is going to be getting involved maybe
<LaserJock> yeah, I thought that was interesting
* jsgotangco opens a bottle of tea
<mdke> uhoh
<mdke> the beginning of the end
<jsgotangco> hrmm
<jsgotangco> who is bill baker?
<Burgwork> no idea
<Burgwork> but he apparently works for Canonical
<Burgwork> Bill Baker, Baker Communications Group, LLC (for OpenVZ) 860-350-9100
<jsgotangco> ahh
<Burgwork> appears to do corporate communications for several Open Source and technologies groups/companies
<jsgotangco> wow good thing the orange text in the website got ditched
<jsgotangco> i almost fainted when i saw it
<mdke> wasn't so bad, I don't think
<jsgotangco> ?
<jsgotangco> *it was*
<jsgotangco> it ate 1/4 of the browser space
<mdke> a little big maybe
<mdke> the same could be said of the cheesy images :)
<LaserJock> mdke: is the help.u.c wiki going to be the community docs tab
<jsgotangco> yeah i love the support guy image its sooo generic
<jsgotangco> it fits the bill exactly for a typical call center agent here
<mdke> LaserJock: that's the idea yeah
<LaserJock> k
<mdke> Karl didn't have time to do the move today, hopefully he'll do it tomorrow
<mdke> so who is doing the SoC stuff, was it JaneW before?
<jsgotangco> yes
<jsgotangco> im not sure who's going to handle it after
<mdke> bummer
<jsgotangco> she ain't going to paris either
<Madpilot> hi LaserJock
<LaserJock> hi Madpilot 
<LaserJock> how's the job going?
<Madpilot> Jobs are (both) going OK. Computer isn't...
<LaserJock> you've got 2 jobs?
<Madpilot> dist-upgrade to Dapper has f*cked the thing up
<Madpilot> yeah, one part-time and one basically casual
<LaserJock> hehe, that's why I dist-upgraded in Dec.
<Madpilot> heh. I had a few issues going from Hoary->Breezy, but Breezy-Dapper has broken damn near everything.
<Madpilot> No internet, no sound, no auto-mounting of CDs - all stuff that works flawlessly before
<LaserJock> dang
<LaserJock> did you use the update manager?
<Madpilot> I'm using a Xubuntu LiveCD right now
<Madpilot> yeah, the shiny new GUI thing
<Madpilot> the trouble seems to be the k7 kernel
<LaserJock> really
<LaserJock> I end up just using -386 just cause I don't want to mess with it
<Madpilot> possibly, although Corey has very similar hardware, the k7 kernel, and has no trouble from Dapper
<LaserJock> weird
<Madpilot> and I ran all the Dapper Flight LiveCDs up to Beta, all with no trouble...
<LaserJock> double weird
<Madpilot> yeah.
<LaserJock> Burgwork: you around?
<Madpilot> thankfully, all my partitions are all intact - no data lost
<LaserJock> yeah, the livecd ate mine
<Madpilot> installing off the LiveCD? Ouch.
<Madpilot> hi Burgundavia
<Burgundavia> anybody know a Vaan?
<Burgundavia> hey Madpilot, back up?
<LaserJock> Burgundavia: does everybody get a "major contact" when they register at userful.com?
<Madpilot> Burgundavia: nope, still fucked. No sound card either, and I tried both the Dapper & Breezy kernels I've got installed
<Burgundavia> LaserJock: wht do you mean?
<Burgundavia> Madpilot: you might have to reinstall
<Burgundavia> we seperated your /home, no?
<Madpilot> yes
<Madpilot> nice seperate partition, thank Dog.
<LaserJock> Burgundavia: I got an email from somebody today saying that they would be my "major contact" and asked if I had any questions :-)
<Burgundavia> LaserJock: whom?
<LaserJock> Jay Lee
<Burgundavia> ah, yes, Jay
<Madpilot> LaserJock: you a librarian?
<LaserJock> I just thought it was interesting
<Burgundavia> Madpilot: no, just did some work for Userful
<LaserJock> Madpilot: librarian? i worked a summer in the uni library. I'm a chemist
* Burgundavia considers buying theyearofthelinuxdesktop.com
<Madpilot> just wondering, given that Userful only does library work so far
<LaserJock> that summer I did work at the uni library I was the technology person
<LaserJock> Madpilot: ah, I didn't know that. I just did a little freelancing ;-)
<Burgundavia> the fruits of which should be seen soon
<Madpilot> Burgundavia: "Userfulbuntu"?
<Burgundavia> not quite
<crimsun> it's only cool if it has ponies!
<Burgundavia> it might have a few
<jsgotangco> no lots! or else my daughter would scream
* LaserJock still doesn't get the ponies thing
<jsgotangco> she has been brainwashed by ubuntu already
<Burgundavia> bloody hell! I sell the ponies. I don't make them
<crimsun> tehehe
<crimsun> LaserJock: ok, this might help: http://cyclotram.blogspot.com/2006/05/omg-ponies-lol.html
<Lathiat> mdke: am now :)
<crimsun> or if you happened across /. on april fools
<LaserJock> I did see the /. on april fools
<crimsun> or if you know about young girls and their ponies, like in charlie and the chocolate factory
<LaserJock> ah, see I grew up with mostly boys
<LaserJock> not a lot of girls around my house
<Madpilot> "a demented, post-apocalyptic My Little Pony." - from crimsun's article... :)
<Madpilot> Burgundavia: could you pull down the Dapper install ISO & burn it for me?
<Burgundavia> Madpilot: yep, can do
<Madpilot> thanks. even with 1Gb of RAM, I'm not sure that pulling down an entire ISO is wise while I'm stuck on a LiveCD :P
<crimsun> oh geez.
<crimsun>  POE::Knee is a homophone of "Pony".  We all like ponies. And wouldn't we
<crimsun>  love to race ponies? Well, that's what Acme::POE::Knee is for!
<crimsun> (libacme-poe-knee-perl)
<Madpilot> crimsun: please tell me you're joking about those file names... ;)
<Burgundavia> anybody got an rsync line for the latest dapper?
<LaserJock> Lathiat: you are totally missing time zones I guess
<Lathiat> LaserJock: yeh
<Lathiat> LaserJock: mdke messaged me at 5:01am
<Lathiat> :)
<Lathiat> i was faastt asleep :)
<Lathiat> mdke: perhaps you could email me instead :)
<Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RecentChanges?action=fullsearch&context=180&value=%22apt-get+install%22&fullsearch=Text <-- 489 results
<Burgundavia> I am depressed
<LaserJock> hmm, quite a few  of those are translated pages it seems
<Burgundavia> yep
<LaserJock> hmm, I didn't get any for "aptitude install"
<Burgundavia> I assume you did text?
<LaserJock> oh heck, I accidently did title
<LaserJock> stupid me
<Burgundavia> yep, hence why I asked
<LaserJock> I got 33
<LaserJock> personally I'm getting sick of wiki.u.c
<LaserJock> there is waaaay too much stuff and much of it is crap
<Burgundavia> yep
<LaserJock> I guess it is better to have to much than to little, to some extent
<Burgundavia> there are a lot of topic to cover
<LaserJock> I guess it is mostly the huge range of quality and randomness that gets me
<Madpilot> the duplication is fun too - when you realize that a single topic has three seperate & conflicting howtos...
<LaserJock> you really have to have teams that look after subject areas or something
<Burgundavia> I redirect yet another broadcom howto and the author emailed me
<Burgundavia> he said "uhh, where is my stuff?
<LaserJock> and you said, "in the darkest reaches of hell"?
<crimsun> we really need a "zomg ponies" page.
<Burgundavia> crimsun: do it!
<crimsun> "sorry, but your page has been found wanting. Please see zomgPonies instead."
<LaserJock> lol
<Madpilot> it would have to be "ZomgPonies" to get the wiki's CamelCase working ;)
<LaserJock> man, XP sucks when it comes to printing
<Burgundavia> yep
<Burgundavia> no cups ipp support, afaics
<LaserJock> it doesn't have a lot for drivers either
<LaserJock> crimsun: you running opera right now?
* robotgeek has been using epiphany without significant issues now, even likes it
<crimsun> LaserJock: nope, IE, the horror
<robotgeek> the ietab firefox extension is cool
<LaserJock> crimsun: dang, I just went to help.ubuntu.com/6.06 and the tabs are all messsed up
<LaserJock> but that is in XP
* Burgundavia smacks LaserJock for using XP
<LaserJock> I know, I know
<LaserJock> I gotta get this thing resized and dualbooting before Paris
<onkarshinde> rob: there?
<onkarshinde> I wanted to discuss some changes to RestrictedFormats wiki page. Is anybody interested?
<LaserJock> onkarshinde: you should email the ubuntu-doc mailing list
<jsgotangco> hmm
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco: ?
<jsgotangco> will help.ubuntu.com get updated to reflect the doc.ubuntu.com docs?
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco: the move has not yet been done
<jsgotangco> hmm it means we're actually moving servers?
<jsgotangco> or just redirecting?
<Burgundavia> no, the content has not yet been moved
<jsgotangco> would be nice to have at least the page changed for now, it still has breezy docs, but it can wait i guess
<Burgundavia> which page
<Burgundavia> ?
<jsgotangco> help.ubuntu.com
<Burgundavia> sorry, tired, I am not following you
<Burgundavia> better speak to mdke
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia: http://help.ubuntu.com still shows 5.10 docs in HTML and our dapper start pages refer to it
<mdke> jsgotangco: not much I can do, I'm afraid
<jsgotangco> its not a big issue, i just noticed it
<mdke> I don't want to put up the 6.06 docs because they have the community tab which points at the non-existent wiki
<jsgotangco> why not remove the tab for now?
<mdke> karl should be doing the move today, then it will be sorted
<jsgotangco> crap idea?
<jsgotangco> ahhh
<mdke> jsgotangco: because that would mean rebuilding all the docs, it would take me a while
<jsgotangco> no worries like i said, its not a big issue
<mdke> you're right though, I just don't have time, and hopefully it will be sorted today
<bhuvan> mdke: i wish to print ubuntu t.shirts and distribute it locally. should i get permission from someone to do this ?
<mdke> awesome
<jsgotangco> you will have to ask silbs about it though
<mdke> bhuvan: I don't think you need permission, but it wouldn't hurt to ask anyway, just in case. Also, Simira has done this before, maybe she can help with the templates
<jsgotangco> or marilize
<jsgotangco> but i don't think its really an issue
<jsgotangco> we printed a hundred shirts down south before
<bhuvan> jsgotangco, cool!
* jsgotangco thinks the ubuntu-newsletter emblem is worth making a shirt
<bhuvan> mdke, i am looking into Arwork/Official wiki page and got a logo (UbuntuStrapLogo.eps)
<Madpilot> jsgotangco: got a link to the -newsletter logo?
* bhuvan is just googling for the same :)
<jsgotangco> look for the ubuntu-newsletter LP team
<jsgotangco> its really really tiny and mgalvin as the original
<jsgotangco> but since we now have 4 ditributions it was natural to make a frankenstein logo out of it
<highvoltage> hehe
<Madpilot> looks like all four logos, one in each quarter of a circle?
<jsgotangco> yeah with the mouse
<jsgotangco> don't forget the mouse!
<Madpilot> I'm running Xubuntu right now, I haven't forgotten the mouse :)
<jsgotangco> err where is the xubuntu iso in se.releases?
* jsgotangco couldn't find it
<Madpilot> no idea, I'm running a Xubuntu Beta2 LiveCD - dist-upgrade to Dapper borked my main install :|
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco: xubuntu has not been rolled yet, due to an LTSP bug
<jsgotangco> ahhh
<Madpilot> I thought LTSP was mostly an Edubuntu thing?
<Burgundavia> yep, but due to asking, Xubuntu is going to have LTSP as an option on the install cd
<Madpilot> cool
<Burgundavia> that was what broke
<Madpilot> makes sense for the older hardware a lot of schools (even in wealthy countries) have around
<highvoltage> Madpilot: edubuntu is probably it's most relevant use atm
<highvoltage> Madpilot: but it's important across the range, Xubuntu also now has an LTSP automated install
<highvoltage> xubuntu has been released :)
<jsgotangco> where?
<highvoltage> just a sec (me opens release announcement)
* jsgotangco doesn't see it in the mirrors
<robitaille> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/xubuntu/releases/6.06/release/
<robitaille> according to the announcement
<jsgotangco> cheers
* jsgotangco is catching up on ISOs for tomorrow's get together
<highvoltage> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-announce/2006-June/000084.html
<jsgotangco> there's this small tea house that will get raided by 50+ people in brown shirts tomorrow
<highvoltage> please take photos/videos :)
<robitaille> and I'm sure these 50+ people will be speaking a very strange language, with all sort of strange code words like dapper and edgy :)
<Madpilot> jsgotangco: dress code for your event is "wear brown"? Shouldn't orange be acceptable too, for Dapper?
<jsgotangco> sure
<jsgotangco> i plan to go in my best looking MSDN jacket
<onkarshinde> What is mailing list for documentation?
<pygi> ubuntu-doc
<onkarshinde> I don't find it on this page http://www.ubuntu.com/community/lists
<pygi> lists.ubuntu.com
<glatzor> ping jsgotangco
<glatzor> ping mdke
<jsgotangco> hi
<jsgotangco> glatzor: pong (im almost out though)
<glatzor> jsgotangco: then go to bad. :) I've got problems with the build system, since I want to test my translation of the desktop guide
<glatzor> bed
<glatzor> /home/sebi/Desktop/%C3%9Cbersetzung/ubuntu/desktop-guide/desktopguide-de/getting-started.xml:311: parser error : Entity 'users-groups' not defined
<glatzor> application>Users And Groups</application> application located in &users-groups;
<mdke> glatzor: you shouldn't have any entitites, they are stripped out when building the pot file
<mdke> check the pot file, that string isn't in there
<glatzor> mdke: hi, the entities are not in the pot file, that is right. but xml2po doesn't merge my translations of the corresponding message that include a link
<mdke> Burgwork: can you avoid moderating the email from me in the queue for ubuntu-doc... I didn't send it so I'm curious as to how it got there.
<mdke> Burgwork: i'm gonna ask elmo or someone
<Laser_away> mdke: ping?
<mdke> Laser_away: pong
<Laser_away> mdke: I checked out help.u.c/6.06 last night with opera on XP and it had some issues, did you know about that?
<lastnode_> how do you include an image in the wiki?
<lastnode_> syntax i mean?
<mdke> lastnode_: HelpOnActions/AttachFile
<lastnode_> thanks mdke 
<mdke> lastnode_: what are you working on out of interest?
<lastnode_> mdke, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SriLankanTeam , im trying to flesh out our activities in order to seek approval at the next Community Council meeting
<lastnode_> we're having a DRP :)
<mdke> cool
<mdke> DRP?
<mdke> ah
<mdke> ic
<mdke> nice script
<lastnode_> mdke, script?
<mdke> script as in writing characters
<lastnode> ah
<lastnode> you see it?
<lastnode> nice, it's sinhala
<mdke> yeah
<lastnode> im just trying to upload a beta logo :)
<mdke> lastnode: whoops, I didn't reply. No, I didn't know about any issues
<mdke> argh
<mdke> Laser_away: ^^
<lastnode> :)
<lastnode> mdke needs a break from the screen, i think
* lastnode uses jedi mind tricks
<lastnode> a break will you take
<lastnode> brb
<mdke> hehe
<LaserJock> lastnode: he doesn't need a break, he needs to get to work ;-)
<LaserJock> mdke: are you interested in opera problems at all?
<mdke> LaserJock: is it a gap between the tabs and the page?
* jsgotangco doesn't like opera
<jsgotangco> LaserJock: but did it work with gdebi?
<LaserJock> mdke: the tabs were all on the left and the tops of them had white
<LaserJock> jsgotangco: it was Opera for XP ;-)
<jsgotangco> wooooo
<LaserJock> jsgotangco: I haven't tried gdebi yet
* jsgotangco gives LaserJock the edubuntu smackdown
<LaserJock> hehe
<LaserJock> I did try the Edubunt livecd on that laptop though
<mdke> LaserJock: Madpilot reported problems with all Ubuntu websites with opera. Was this just with ours?
<LaserJock> hmm, I don't remember seeing it on www.u.c
<LaserJock> but I just hit a couple sites to see what it looked like
<jsgotangco> well in epiphany the ubuntu website's tabs doesn't jive well either
<LaserJock> I'm at school now so I'll get Opera for OS X and see what it does
<LaserJock> mdke: it is a different issue with help.u.c/6.06 than www.u.c with opera
<LaserJock> mdke: help.u.c looks fine in OS X opera except the tabs are on the left instead of right side
<mdke> LaserJock: if you have a fix... Otherwise I think I will leave it
<LaserJock> hehe
<LaserJock> you sound like a dev ;-)
<mdke> you shouldn't be using these crazy browsers with crazy OSes
<jsgotangco> that's right
<jsgotangco> LaserJock: never argue with a lawyer :/
* jsgotangco hides
<LaserJock> hehe
<LaserJock> well, I just thought I would test it out
<LaserJock> next stop, lynx :-)
<jsgotangco> hey while you're at it, please install amaya as well an old version of mosaic :D
<LaserJock> heh, lynx has saved my bacon more than once
<jsgotangco> yeah
<LaserJock> they need to make a CLI browser that actually does the layout and graphics with ASCII art :-)
<jsgotangco> heh yeah like those geeky mplayer plugins that convert the movie to ascii
<LaserJock> yeah
<jsgotangco> those are sooo cool
<jsgotangco> i installed skype and gdebi took care of the deps awesome
<LaserJock> I have to say that gdebi could really change third party packaging
<LaserJock> oh my gosh!! no wonder he has karma to the moon
<jjesse> who?
<LaserJock> seb128
<LaserJock> https://launchpad.net/people/seb128/+assignedbugs
<LaserJock> https://launchpad.net/people/seb128/+subscribedbugs
<lastnode> mdke, ping
<mdke> lastnode: yeah
<lastnode> mdke, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SriLankanTeam , the logo, is it a trademark violation? it just occured to me
<lastnode> i just looked at the Indian guys and thought id go for it
<lastnode> didn't really strike me
<mdke> oh by the way
<mdke> hope you're not a cricket fan :p
<lastnode> mdke, i was a fanatic, but after we pwned the world in 1996
<lastnode> i stopped watching
<lastnode> what more is there for a little island to do ;-)
* mdke nods
<jjesse> cricket that's like baseball right ?   :)
<mdke> a bit
<lastnode> jjesse, baseball is cricket's illegitimate son
<mdke> lastnode: see the trademark page on the website, if in doubt email them to ask
<jjesse> grin i'm being sarcastic i know what cricket is
<lastnode> :)
<lastnode> jjesse++
<lastnode> mdke, should i pull the image till then?
<LaserJock> people still play cricket? I thought that was phased out years ago, like rugby ;-)
<lastnode_> ye gods! i have a karma of 16. can someone tell me how that happens?
<LaserJock> what was it?
<lastnode_> 0
<LaserJock> \o/
<lastnode_> dont people have to give you karma?
<LaserJock> no
* lastnode_ scratches head
<LaserJock> on your LP page there should be a link on the left that says Karma
<jsgotangco> karma is your activity
<lastnode_> oh i see
<mdke> lastnode: nah
<LaserJock> so you must have done something :-)
* lastnode_ has translated a little over the past few days
<lastnode_> it's slow work because technical terms are really hard to turn in to english
<lastnode_> 
<lastnode_> i just spelt my name
<lastnode_> but even that's wrong
<jjesse> wow
<lastnode_> the last letter is a bastardized version
<jjesse> what language?
<lastnode_> it should be mahaNgu
<lastnode_> jjesse, Sinhala
<jsgotangco> nice
<jsgotangco> how does my name look in that?
<lastnode_> what's your name?
<jsgotangco> jerome
<lastnode_> 
<lastnode_> there is a font problem there
<lastnode_> if you noticed
<jsgotangco> yeah
<lastnode_> >:(
<jsgotangco> i notice it
<jsgotangco> it doesn't make any sense to me though, it still looksl ike a bunch of small circles, sorry for that
<jsgotangco> its neat though =)
<lastnode> jsgotangco, it's 3000 years old
<lastnode> the language i mean
<lastnode> it's derivative of pali/sanskrit
<jsgotangco> whoa
<lastnode> it's phonetic too, so if you can speak, you can write
<lastnode> well, in a nutshell
<lastnode> brb, dinner
<jsgotangco> whoa
<lastnode> jsgotangco, dissecting jerome would look like this
<lastnode>  is j
<lastnode>  is jE
<jsgotangco> are you using scim?
<lastnode> jsgotangco, yeah
<jjesse> can you write some docs on how to use it :)
<lastnode>  is rrrr
<lastnode>  is ro
<jjesse> the kubuntu people are hurting for information on how to setup and run with scim
<jsgotangco> very interesting...
<lastnode> jjesse, yeah sure, but im using gnome
<lastnode>  is M
<lastnode>  is jeroME
<lastnode> :)
<jjesse> know anyone using kubuntu and scim that could do some documentation?
<lastnode> ok im done
<jsgotangco> who made those fonts?
<lastnode> jsgotangco, im not even sure
<lastnode> i prefer out LUG font
<lastnode> *our
<jsgotangco> im in irssi, i don't see a lot of difference...
<jsgotangco> except some serif
* jsgotangco resizes terminal fonts
<lastnode> oh right
<lastnode> yeah it's wierd
<lastnode> hopefully the lk-lug font will ship with pango next time
<lastnode> there were patches being made, last i know
<lastnode> jjesse, id be happy to help with the scim docs though
<lastnode> but isnt it sKim?
<lastnode> for kde?
<jsgotangco> yes
<lastnode> hmm
<lastnode> anyway finally dinner!
<lastnode> brb
<jsgotangco> ciao
<lastnode> jsgotangco, back, eating
<lastnode> back, eating
* lastnode fires up a debconf video to watch while grubbing
<LaserJock> lastnode: where are the video's at?
<lastnode> LaserJock, http://meetings-archive.debian.net/pub/debian-meetings/2005/debconf5/
<lastnode> ive only downloaded a few
<lastnode> already watched Mark's talk, which was nice
<lastnode> and Anthony Towns'
<lastnode> watching Brendon's one now
<lastnode> mmm
<lastnode> man pages
<mdke> lastnode: are there videos for 2006, do you know?
<lastnode> mdke, i have no clue
<lastnode> er checked
<lastnode> mdke, there is one
<lastnode> http://meetings-archive.debian.net/pub/debian-meetings/2006/debconf6/debcamp/hacklab_2006-05-09.mp4
<mdke> cool
<lastnode> Seveas, was that your alter ego that logged in as DapperDrake this afternoon :)
<Seveas> no
<lastnode> it was you then?
<lastnode> aha
<lastnode> zomg manpages
<jsgotangco> hey this isn't world of warcraft ;P
<[Utah] tristanbob> there are a TON of wiki pages about Java - Do these need to be updated for 6.06?
<mdke> yes
<jsgotangco> very
<mdke> but there shouldn't be a ton
<mdke> there should ideally be one, and maybe subpages if necessary
<jsgotangco> because now we just turn on mutliverse then apt-get
<jsgotangco> but that's only for dapper
<jsgotangco> it'll probably work for breezy as well
<mdke> it does, if you specify the right packages. blackdown java packages are in breezy
<jsgotangco> i meant sun-java
<mdke> ah, that isn't in breezy
<LaserJock> hmm, well that didn't exactly go the way I expected
<mdke> haha
<mdke> that'll teach you
<LaserJock> well, I didn't really think he would have time for it
<LaserJock> but I didn't think I'd be in charge
<LaserJock> oh well
<jsgotangco> lol
<mdke> he's a nice guy
<LaserJock> but Ian wrote like all the Debian devel docs so I'm a little nervous
<jsgotangco> that's what you get for messing with the guy who created dpkg!
<lastnode> jjesse, you were saying about scim/skim? where do i look
<lastnode> murdock?
<jsgotangco> lastnode: ian jackson
<lastnode> oh ok
<mdke> although Murdock in fact created dpkg, I believe that's right
<LaserJock> he is also the current firefox dude
<lastnode> yeah that's what im thought, but im likely to be mistaken
<mdke> oh no, perhaps not
<LaserJock> it is sort of creepy to look up some of the Ubuntu guys in the Debian site
<jsgotangco> i believe he wrote most of the stuff that we use today
<lastnode> "It was created by Ian Jackson in 1993."
<lastnode> LaserJock, why?
<jsgotangco> but the blueprints were from murdock
<LaserJock> lastnode: well elmo for instance is the ftp master for both Debian and Ubuntu and generally manages to run large parts of both distros
<lastnode> mmm
<lastnode> elmo took over from towns?
<jsgotangco> hmm looks like iwj wrote this in sgml
<LaserJock> well, I don't know if he is *the* ftp master but he is one of 3 I think
<LaserJock> I can't remember
<lastnode> i see
<LaserJock> mdz is/was heavily involved in Debian too I think 
<jsgotangco> yes
<mdke> BenC was DPL
<mdke> right?
<LaserJock> I was just skimming through the Debian website looking for info
<jsgotangco> i met mdz through the debian-arm project
<lastnode> Ben Collins (April 2001  April 2002)
<LaserJock> I'm not a debian user so I was amazed to see all these familar names
<jsgotangco> i was still in openzaurus before
<LaserJock> I can see where Debian could get a little "unhappy" about having a pretty sizable number of key players start working for Ubuntu
<jsgotangco> LaserJock: there's also mvo
<LaserJock> yeah
<jsgotangco> even mako before
<jsgotangco> and enricozini
<jsgotangco> (he's here but must be busy so i didnt tab complete his name)
<jsgotangco> daniels also
<jsgotangco> actually its not that much
<jsgotangco> but the impact of those guys in the upstream project is quite big
<LaserJock> iwj is head of the Debian Technical Committee
<mdke> seb does the gnome packages doesn't he
<jsgotangco> i believe so
* jsgotangco not sure
<Burgwork> he works with the debian gnome team, yes
<Burgwork> jdub used to run/work on Debian has well
<lastnode> LaserJock, check out this video - http://ftp.acc.umu.se/pub/debian-meetings/2005/debconf5/mpeg/2005-07-14/02-Ubuntu_Talk-Mark_Shuttleworth.mpeg
<lastnode> sabdfl mentions many more names
<lastnode> jdub was/is a gnome dev?
<jsgotangco> jdub used to be the gnome release manager
<lastnode> thar we go
<jsgotangco> actually there are a lot of people in other projects
<Burgwork> but when he did IT consulting, he built on Debian, hence the connection there
<jsgotangco> like python for instance
<jsgotangco> there's also lamont before
<Burgwork> almost everybody canonical hired has about 8 different skills they can use
<lastnode> :)
<enrico> hi jsgotangco, LaserJock  :)
* jsgotangco wonders if a job history at burger king would help
<jsgotangco> enrico!
<Burgwork> hey enrico 
<LaserJock> jsgotangco: perhaps
<LaserJock> hi enrico 
<mdke> here is what we have for Lulu: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MatthewEast/CompleteBookTranslations
<jsgotangco> LaserJock: yeah i'll make sure I add, I flipped burgers and dipped onion rings for thousands of customers every month
<mdke> mmmm
<jsgotangco> those guys sure have lots of translation manpower to spare
<mdke> there are a lot more finished now, those are just the finished ones we have in our repo
<mdke> and I had to remove quite a few because I didn't know what font to use
<jsgotangco> i wish i had dedicated people like them
<mdke> czech, russian, polish all had some completed 
<jsgotangco> i live in a country where there is very little love of the local language
<jsgotangco> especially in computer-based literature
<robotgeek> awesome mdke ! 
<LaserJock> well, at least the koreans and swedish users will have a good set of docs ;-) j/k
<robotgeek> does anyone know how good translations are in our competing OS's
<jsgotangco> where people laugh when they see about gnome in the local tounge and dismiss it as not useful
<lastnode> robotgeek, for my language, it's virtually nill
<Burgwork> jsgotangco, translation community can help spur the rest of the community (marketing, etc.) into ation
<Burgwork> jsgotangco, we run intot he same issue in Canada
<robotgeek> lastnode: sorry to hear. 
<jsgotangco> Burgwork: you're native english speakers :P
<Burgwork> yep, hence no instant community
<jsgotangco> that is the problem as well
<lastnode> robotgeek, im just working on translating atm, actually :)
<mdke> lastnode: you can change that!
<lastnode> mdke, of course!
<robotgeek> issue in India is that most people who have access to computers know english already, but i am glad to see translation efforts underway
<jsgotangco> Burgwork: although Nokia has done some good work in localising
<lastnode> 
<lastnode> mdke, that's your first name, right there!
<lastnode> :P
<lastnode> actually
<jsgotangco> they look like roses
<lastnode> ive anglo-saxonized it
<lastnode> it should read 
<mdke> cool!
<robotgeek> hmm, i can only see weird stuff. utf-8 issues :)
<lastnode> robotgeek, you need the locale installed
<lastnode> SI_utf8
<robotgeek> lastnode: ah, okay
<jsgotangco> Burgwork: but you have very little need to translate to en_CA, on my side we have tl_PH but people prefer en_US they are not even aware of en_PH
<lastnode> hopefully ill have a few more to work with after sunday's DRP
<Burgwork> yep
<jsgotangco> me and jdub talked about it before and he informed me the mongols invaded gnome in 6 weeks
<lastnode> wow
<lastnode> respect to them
<jsgotangco> yeah
<lastnode> "Alpha Console Firmware"
<lastnode> hth do i translate that
<lastnode> xD
<jsgotangco> you just remain it as is if you can't translate it
<lastnode> yeah i know, but there should be translations
<jsgotangco> sometimes you can't really
<jsgotangco> like in my language, Desktop has an entirely different meaning
<jsgotangco> when translated literally
<lastnode> jsgotangco, for a translation to ship, how much has to be completed?
<mdke> anything
<jsgotangco> anything
<jsgotangco> sometimes its not completed it gets shipped
<jsgotangco> it doesn't look good though
<jsgotangco> if you're tackling gnome, i'd still go for gnome cvs instead of rosetta
<lastnode> mdke, even if one is translated it ships?
<lastnode> i mean one block
<jsgotangco> yes
<lastnode> that's wierd
<jsgotangco> whatever rosetta picks up
<jsgotangco> then syncs
<jsgotangco> all language packs are now processed
<lastnode> oh right
<lastnode> so we need to get these out before edgy
<lastnode> :)
<jsgotangco> (but if it doesn't feel free to ping rosetta)
<mdke> lastnode: translate dapper, it will get monthly updates
<jsgotangco> mdke: really?
<lastnode> mdke, oh ok
<lastnode> mdke, keyboard input doesnt work eyt with dapper
<mdke> yeah, like previous releases
<lastnode> i needed to apt-get a deb package for it
<lastnode> a third party deb package at that
<mdke> ah, definitely work with the developers for edgy on that
<mdke> gtg
<jsgotangco> mdke: is this only for ubuntu-docs or even applications translated in rosetta
<mdke> jsgotangco: only applications translated in rosetta. for ubuntu-docs, it depends on how often I will do it
<jsgotangco> hokayyy
<jsgotangco> yes sir
<lastnode> :)
<mdke> cya
* jsgotangco gives mdke the salute
<jsgotangco> okayy so edgy will be open in 3 days
<jjesse> just saw that email
<jsgotangco> good night
<kermitX_> http://help.ubuntu.com/starterguide/C/ch04.html#installnvidiadriver  needs a little cleanup for dapper
<Burgwork> kermitX_, that is the old breezy guide
<jjesse> i don't think we releasd the start guide for dapper
<Burgwork> starter guide is now desktop guide
<jjesse> check out what the weather looks like outside: http://www.marshillruns.com/images/dsc01040.jpg 
<Burgwork> jjesse, cool. Where in the world are you again?
<jjesse> grand rapids michigan, usa
<kermitX_> the start guide is what's linked from help.ubuntu.com; perhaps labeling it as breezy and referring people to the new guide?
<jjesse> severe thunderstorm watch right now
<jjesse> help.ubuntu.com is getting updated
<Burgwork> we are about move the new guides from doc.ubuntu.com to help.ubuntu.com
<kermitX_> ahh. ok. and that would be where the installed system documentation comes from?
<jjesse> correct
<Burgwork> it is one and the same
<jjesse> d.u.c is where it is for testng and moved to production at h.u.c
<kermitX_> k. thx. just need to know where to refer ppl to.
<kermitX_> good job, btw on the docs.. better than any other distribution i've ever used.
<theCore> hi LaserJock
<LaserJock> hi theCore 
<theCore> does the docs have been unlocked?
<LaserJock> the docs have always been unlocked
<LaserJock> we just branched Dapper docs, we can still work in ubuntu-docs just fine
<theCore> ah, I thought the doc-team was refusing changes, because of the freeze
<LaserJock> no
<LaserJock> we just weren't making changes to the dapper branch
<LaserJock> trunk is still ok
<theCore> maybe, I could write something then
<theCore> anyway, I want to do some packaging 
<LaserJock> great
<theCore> maybe I should move to -motu
<LaserJock> that's always a good place to hang out ;-)
<crimsun> git checkout master
<crimsun> fark, ewrongwindow
<LaserJock> crimsun: lol, doing some kernel work?
<crimsun> LaserJock: yeah, until I decided to give my fingers a "break" by attempting to "explain" stuff to neuRo] 
<crimsun> enough of that finger exercise :p
<LaserJock> hehe
<LaserJock> crimsun: I guess I'm taking over the Ubuntu Developer's Reference, you might get to do some more proofreading for edgy :-)
<crimsun> oh dear :p
<LaserJock> yep
<LaserJock> that's what I said
#ubuntu-doc 2006-06-03
<mdke> anyone know how to make an index page which simply redirects to a url?
<mdke> don't make me look it up
<LaserJock> sorry
<mdke> ok, it's a pretty ugly hack, but it'll do for now
<mdke> I've put up the docs at the old server at help.ubuntu.com until the wiki move 
<Burgwork> the amount I know about html could be safely contained in one cup
<mdke> thankfully the internet knows loads more
<Burgwork> indeed
<mdke> lemme know if there are any problems with it
<LaserJock> mdke: Packaging Guide (HTML and PDF) seem to work fine
<mdke> ok cool
<theCore> the channel seem quiet these days
<mdke> yep
<theCore> well, maybe it's a good sign
<mdke> we need to gather our forces again for the next cycle :)
<theCore> quiet channel = productivity
<theCore> I hope the Developer will go well
<LaserJock> theCore: get cracking on the PG outline :-)
<theCore> Developer Summit*
<LaserJock> I hope so too
<LaserJock> I wish more doc people could go
<theCore> LaserJock: I got a outline already
<LaserJock> is it on UbuntuPackagingGuide ?
<theCore> not yet
<LaserJock> I didn't get anything in my email box
<theCore> I copied the wiki on my machine, and edit it locally
<theCore> so I can use emacs ;)
<theCore> LaserJock: any ideas for  the guide?
<LaserJock> oh jeeze
<LaserJock> it's really that hard to do it on the wiki? ;-)
<LaserJock> oh, I have my idea
<LaserJock> s
<LaserJock> but I want other peoplpe to contribute before I work on it
<theCore> LaserJock: I see
<LaserJock> if I'm going to be working on the Ubuntu Developer's Reference I need to make sure that I have lots of help for the PG
<LaserJock> and it isn't all about me, it is the communities doc
<theCore> oh, I didn't heard about this one
<LaserJock> theCore: do you know the Debian Developer's Reference? it is on www.debian.org/devel/
<theCore> LaserJock: yeah
<LaserJock> Ian Jackson (who wrote it and worked on most of the Debian developer docs) started an Ubuntu port of it
<LaserJock> but he is also very busy as the Ubuntu firefox guy so he wanted me to take it over
<theCore> LaserJock: that sound familiar to me ...
<LaserJock> mhm
<theCore> LaserJock: did you got the PG the same way?
<LaserJock> sort of
<theCore> Technical Committee -- chairman: Ian Jackson
<theCore> not an average Joe
<LaserJock> no
<LaserJock> sort of intimidating
<LaserJock> but it is also not within the doc team
<LaserJock> it is sgml and I have html, pdf, and translations to think about
<mdke> the build system is there already, presumably
<kbrooks> bbl, bed
<LaserJock> mdke: yes, thankfully
<theCore> I wonder how the Debian folks are feeling about seeing one of their top developpers playing with Ubuntu
<LaserJock> well, there are others
<theCore> does sgml is close to docbook?
<mdke> yeah
<LaserJock> yes, I think so
<theCore> I think it's mostly the same thing, isn't it?
<theCore> so, converting it to docbook will be easy
<LaserJock> welll, I don't think I'll be doing that
<LaserJock> it is set up with the debian doc system and I don't wan to mess with that
<mdke> you can't
<LaserJock> can't what?
<mdke> you'll be trying to ensure that you can just patch the debian version
<mdke> you can't convert it to docbook
<LaserJock> I guess I could, but I don't think that would be wise
<theCore> so, the guide will be just an Ubuntu-ized version of the Debian Developer's Reference?
<LaserJock> it will be the Ubuntu Developer's Reference and yes it is Ubuntuizing the DDR
<theCore> then we are better to keep it to sgml, so if there are changes on the Debian side, we can merge them back into our guide
<LaserJock> yeah, and it is its own package
<theCore> LaserJock: I submitted a few ideas on the wiki
<LaserJock> great
<Madpilot> Burgundavia: ping
<Burgundavia> Madpilot: pong
<Madpilot> ah, you are home already
<Madpilot> I actually wanted the real install disc, not the LiveCD disc - I know how to use the old-fashioned installer...
<LaserJock> hi Madpilot and Burgundavia 
<Burgundavia> well then you should have told me
<Burgundavia> live with yer livecd, boy
<Madpilot> Burgundavia: I thought I had - I asked for an install disc
<theCore> LaserJock: so, any comments?
<Burgundavia> you did and one you got
<LaserJock> that is why they have been renamed to Desktop Cd and Alternate CD
<Madpilot> Can the LiveCD installer be trusted around existing partitions? I haven't got most of my stuff backed up, and if this thing eats /home I'll be highly unimpressed...
<robotgeek> the uncool installer
<LaserJock> theCore: hmm, let me hack on it for a sec
<robotgeek> Madpilot: file a bug
* robotgeek hides
<Burgundavia> yes, it can be
<Burgundavia> it has not yet eaten my window install
<Madpilot> Burgundavia: too bad ;)
<LaserJock> it ate all my stuff on Flight7
<LaserJock> more or less
<Burgundavia> LaserJock: flight7 was a while ago
<Madpilot> LaserJock: hopefully that was just Flight7, not this final release LiveCD...
<LaserJock> I don't think so but I thought the partitioner sucked
<Madpilot> meh. It can read existing partition tables, at least?
<Burgundavia> yes
<Madpilot> OK... here goes nothing...
<LaserJock> that's right, be adventurous
<Madpilot> thanks... I think
<Madpilot> I really need to set money aside for a 2nd HDD, just in case Edgy fubars my system too :|
<robotgeek> i'm only going to vmware from now on :)
<robotgeek> or Xen
<theCore> robotgeek: what is vmware, btw?
<Madpilot> that still needs a base OS to run on, and mine is currently borked
<robotgeek> theCore: allows you to run a different OS instance on top of another
<robotgeek> you could run linux on windows, windows on linux and so on
<Madpilot> um, should I just delete sda1, re-create it, and make sure it's designated as root? I can't see a way of saying "Use this existing partition as root, and delete everything in it first"
<theCore> robotgeek: looks cool, must be slow
<robotgeek> theCore: actually no, its decent
<Madpilot> where the heck is the 'use this partition as root' flag in this graphical thing?
<Madpilot> anyone?
<LaserJock> honestly, I'm not sure
<theCore> robotgeek: anyway, i didn't used Windows for a year now, and I don't plan to use it soon, thanks for the info
<theCore> Madpilot: I think it's to make the partition only readable (or mountable) by root
<robotgeek> theCore: could work like a chroot too, run breezy in dapper, edgy in dapper and so on
<theCore> ahh
<theCore> / <- root
<theCore> Madpilot: it's the mount point of the partition
<Madpilot> yeah, I know. Apparently this livecd installer does things in a different order from the text installer, though
<Madpilot> in the 'real' installer, you set up all your paritions & assign roles to them at once. Apparently the gui thing does partitions first, then assigns roles in the next screen...
<LaserJock> ah
<LaserJock> hi jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> good morning
* jsgotangco has a really really bad throat today
<LaserJock> to much Dapper partying?
<Madpilot> right, I just hit the Install button... here goes...
<Madpilot> ;)
<LaserJock> wow, if you got that far it should work ok
<jsgotangco> LaserJock: we went to karaoke last night
<jsgotangco> i feel like i have this huge gash on top of my palate
<Madpilot> jsgotangco: it's retribution for inflicting karaoke on the universe, that's what it is. :)
<jsgotangco> lol
<jsgotangco> hmm how do i erase a cd in default gnome?
<jsgotangco> cdrw rather
<Madpilot> Gnomebaker?
<jsgotangco> well that's installing one more app
<jsgotangco> i was looking for something in the default
<Madpilot> can Nautilus?
<jsgotangco> nautilus can burn
<Madpilot> I should buy a CDRW or two and check...
<Madpilot> ah, Installation is apparently complete (that was fast)... I will now reboot, and see what's working...
* jsgotangco installs k3b anyway
<LaserJock> k3b?
<mgalvin> jsgotangco: just use cdrecord to do it
<jsgotangco> console? yuck
<jsgotangco> :)
<mgalvin> :)
<mgalvin> heres are few examples
<LaserJock> xcdroast!
<mgalvin> http://www.cpqlinux.com/cdrw.html
<jsgotangco> LaserJock: k3b is probably the best burner atm although its a kde app
<mgalvin> at least its part of the default install
<jsgotangco> (best burner frontend rather)
<LaserJock> I know but you went from nautilus to k3b
* jsgotangco is not touching graveman or gnomebaker
* jsgotangco tries doing it from the console
<LaserJock> gnomebaker seemed really nice to me
<mgalvin> nautilus uses cdrecord to do its bidding anyway
<LaserJock> don't they all
<jsgotangco> NOTE: this version of cdrecord is an inofficial (modified) release of cdrecord
<jsgotangco>       and thus may have bugs that are not present in the original version.
<jsgotangco>       Please send bug reports and support requests to <cdrtools@packages.debian. org>.
<jsgotangco>       The original author should not be bothered with problems of this version.
<mgalvin> LaserJock: probably, i'm not sure though
<LaserJock> k3b uses cdrecord
<mgalvin> jsgotangco: it always says that, just ignore it :-/
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco: that is because the upstream author of cdrecord is very hard to work with
<theCore> LaserJock: have you done with the editing?
<LaserJock> nope
<LaserJock> I'm slow
<LaserJock> and I had to do some things around the house ;-)
<Madpilot> back - everything seems to have worked!
<LaserJock> Madpilot: \o/
<Madpilot> gah... why does 'killall gnome-panel' kill XChat too?
<LaserJock> umm, because it isn't a part of gnome-panel
<Lathiat> probably because it has a tray icon
<Lathiat> and crashes when the tray disappears
<Lathiat> as some thigns tended to do
<Lathiat> altho many were fixee
<Lathiat> d
<Madpilot> evidently XChat hasn't been fixed...
<theCore> hmm... the Makefile is broken
<theCore> cp -r ../generic/serverguide/C/sample/* ../build/ubuntu/serverguide/C/sample/
<theCore> cp: cannot stat `../generic/serverguide/C/sample/*': No such file or directory
<theCore> make[1] : *** [server]  Error 1
<theCore> make[1] : Leaving directory `/home/alex/docs/ubuntu-docs/ubuntu'
<theCore> make: *** [website]  Error 2
<Burgundavia> hmm, too bad D has already been done: http://www.weebls-stuff.com/toons/dugong/
<theCore> Burgundavia: that is the most annoying animation loop I ever saw
<Burgundavia> theCore: really, I am sure i could find worse
<theCore> Burgundavia: wait, no it come in second place
<Madpilot> ...after the badger one? ;)
<theCore> that's the one: http://www.zombo.com/
<LaserJock> theCore: ok, I updated it
<theCore> LaserJock: "Experience users who"
<theCore> LaserJock: btw, which mail client do you use?
<LaserJock> oh, thunderbird, Mail.app, mutt, pine
<theCore> Mail.app?
<theCore> a mac app?
<Burgundavia> theCore: I have found somethign more annoying: http://www.weebls-stuff.com/toons/aaaaaaaaaaaaahaha/
<theCore> Burgundavia: impossible
<LaserJock> theCore: yeah, I use an iMac for most things
<theCore> LaserJock: is it good? it seem a lot of web developpers are using Mac these days
<theCore> Burgundavia: ok, I can handle anymore
<theCore> s/dle/dle it/
<LaserJock> theCore: I like it except for the fact that there is hardly any good free software
<theCore> Burgundavia: yeah, it's even more annoying than Zombo.com
<Burgundavia> theCore: hah
* LaserJock is unsure why people would purposefully look for the most annoying animation on the net
<Burgundavia> LaserJock: I am enjoying the randomness of flash on teh net
<theCore> LaserJock: yeah, switching to a Mac seem to imply a switch from free software to shareware
<theCore> Burgundavia: ok, that site is so funny
<LaserJock> theCore: well, not Mac specifically (you can put linux on it after all) but it is on par with Windows (from what I've seen) when it comes to non-free ($0) software
<theCore> Burgundavia: it's so random
<LaserJock> I would definately dual boot with Ubuntu/OSX rather than Ubuntu/Windows XP
<theCore> LaserJock: the GUI on Mac is sexy, I must give that. I wish that Gnome come par to Aqua, if it does it will be a giant win
<LaserJock> meh
<theCore> s/Mac/OSX/
<LaserJock> I think it should be differnt, why try to clone somebody else's product
<LaserJock> Gnome is sweet (KDE too for that matter) and I think all the GUIs have their pro's and con's
<LaserJock> that's not to say that we can't learn anything from OSZ
<theCore> LaserJock: not cloning, but offering a higher-level of interactivity would make Gnome much usable
<LaserJock> OSX
<theCore> I think OSX is becoming much more dangerous than 
<theCore> windows
<LaserJock> I don't know, I still use OS X as a glorified terminal
<Burgundavia> theCore: they both present strategic threats, but I think MS is still the bigger threat than Apple
<LaserJock> as far as a threat to Ubuntu I think OSX is bigger
<theCore> Apple aims the developpers and the artists; those we need to get on our side
<LaserJock> in my field, I have seen people go from Windows -> OSX, Linux -> OS X, Windows -> Linux, but never OSX -> Linux  or OSX -> Windows
<LaserJock> theCore: also scientists
<theCore> LaserJock: bizzare
<LaserJock> lots and lots of scientists
<theCore> LaserJock: indeed
<LaserJock> you get the Unix underpinnings with an easy to use interface
<theCore> "Unix"
<LaserJock> people who would rather drop dead then use Windows will use OSX with out to much of a problem
<robotgeek> OS X's unix sucks!
<LaserJock> my boss ran *nix for probally 20 years and this year he has converted the whole lab (virtually) to OS X
<theCore> the problem right is that Linux hasn't a lot of killer apps for the end-users
<LaserJock> in my field I think the biggest problem is the perception that Linux is not a desktop OS
<LaserJock> they don't mind using it for a computational server
<theCore> Apache is probably the biggest killer apps for Linux, but end-users don't care about building server
<theCore> even if Linux is 10x faster for statistical computing?
<theCore> compared to OS X
<LaserJock> 10x?
* robotgeek has installed a cluster on linux, dead easy :)
<LaserJock> oh yeah, we use Linux exclusively for computational clusters and servers
<LaserJock> but I'm the only one in the department that presently usese Linux as a desktop OS
<LaserJock> out of ~ 100 people
<theCore> LaserJock: the XNU hybrid kernel is a turtle compared to Linux
<LaserJock> theCore: I have no idea, but my iMac is the fastest computer available to me
<LaserJock> :-)
<theCore> LaserJock: that is where Ubuntu is changing the rules, the Desktop
<LaserJock> yeah, that's why I started with the MOTU and Edubuntu
<LaserJock> to bring desktop Linux to scientists
<theCore> I hope with Edgy we will push the desktop even further
<LaserJock> there is a ways to go still, but we are making progress
<Kamping_Kaiser> theCore, its not the kernel at frault afaik, apple just stuffed up somewhat 
<theCore> Xgl seem to a good opportunity
<Burgundavia> xgl has issues among the xorg devs
<LaserJock> all I know is that the fastest computers in the department are all Apples
<theCore> Burgundavia: really?
<theCore> Kamping_Kaiser: I wonder what it is then
<Kamping_Kaiser> theCore, i hear macos x memory management is something shocking
<Burgundavia> theCore: yep
<Burgundavia> the whole "new X server thing" has got them a little annoyed
<theCore> Kamping_Kaiser: memory isn't managed by the kernel?
<Kamping_Kaiser> theCore, i dont remember how it works (wonder if  ihave the link still), but i saw someone be less tehn complementry about the way apple had worked the memory mangement
<theCore> I wonder how we could bring artists to Linux .... 
<LaserJock> by making it a professional look OS that has apps that have the functionality they need
<theCore> Kamping_Kaiser: I think I saw a page on that
<Burgundavia> create a great plaform and they will come
<LaserJock> just like any other group :-)
<LaserJock> it might be easier to say how to *not* bring <group> to Linux
<theCore> that's a bit self-referential, to get artists, you need artists...
<LaserJock> yep
<theCore> but everything is like that
<theCore> to get <group>, you need <group>
<LaserJock> but I do think there are things we can do in general to help attract all groups, I think
<theCore> because they're the only who know what they need
<theCore> LaserJock: I hope so
<LaserJock> however, some of the things are sort of anti-Linux philosophy so I'm not sure they'll ever work
<theCore> like?
<robotgeek> yeah, some people are totally anti linux. 
<LaserJock> IMHO, we have too much redundant software
<theCore> robotgeek: really?
<theCore> LaserJock: good point
<robotgeek> theCore: yes, everyone has their share of irrationality
<Burgundavia> LaserJock: redundant software is solved by better software and better social practices
<theCore> LaserJock: just look at the distros
<LaserJock> choice is good until we start diluting our resources until we have thousands of pieces of crap
<robotgeek> wow, xubuntu looks sweet!
<LaserJock> the Linux science software is full of half-baked ideas that never really got anywhere
<theCore> LaserJock: at least Ubuntu is doing a job at bringing peoples together
<LaserJock> I agree
<theCore> a good job*
<LaserJock> Burgundavia: I agree
<robotgeek> LaserJock: for example, look for a decent image processing library
<LaserJock> at this point I can't say to my boss, "Look Linux has superior software to the stuff you can buy us for OS X"
<theCore> there something we must not forget: quality worth more than policy
<Burgundavia> LaserJock: what is needed is a group of app devs together and work on stuff in common
<theCore> it's not enough to be open-source, it must be good
<LaserJock> Burgundavia: totally
<Burgundavia> LaserJock: you are well placed to start that kind of conversation
<theCore> Burgundavia: it could be great
<LaserJock> if Linux in general was an extension of how I see Ubuntu working then I think we could make great strides
<Burgundavia> one of these days I am going to get all the app makers of gtk+ education apps together and hash some things out
<LaserJock> yeah!
<theCore> +1 for a ubuntu app-dev group 
<robotgeek> scilab vs octave vs scipy vs numpy (all of them do the same thing, differently)
<Burgundavia> I think all they need is the idea that there app may be shipped
<LaserJock> exactly
<robotgeek> i picked scipy, ended up reading stuff from Matlab documentation
<theCore> I hope that conversation will continue to Ubuntu Developer's Summit
<LaserJock> if we could get together in a spirit of cooperation and teamwork we can start pulling things together
<theCore> and drop the zealotry
<LaserJock> well, zealotry for quality open-source software we need to keep ;-)
<theCore> haha, I hope you're being sarcarstic :P
<theCore> that make me remember something: http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-3.html 
<theCore> "Don't feel as if you're Bible salesmen."
<theCore> pushing the limits of computing; that's what peoples should aims for
<Madpilot> I think we should have a feed from ELER on the Fridge :)
<Madpilot> http://geekz.co.uk/lovesraymond/archive/terrorismistic
<ploum_> Hello
* mdke does a little dance
<pygi> mdke, what happened this time? :)
<mdke> I've been battling against fop, and have succeeded in vanquishing it
<pygi> o joy, congrats :)
<theCore> yay, activity!
<pygi> theCore, Lol :)
<theCore> it been 5+ hour without anything happen here
<mdke> 14 to be precise
<pygi> o joy :)
<mdke> pygi: you are very joyful today
<pygi> mdke, hehe :)
<pygi> mdke, rather that then to be sad :)
<mdke> quite
* mdke begins uploading pdfs to Lulu
* mdke wonders if the Desktop Guide is "suitable for all ages and tastes"
<pygi> mdke, what will we print?
<pygi> desktop guides?
<mdke> everything
<pygi> mdke, then you shall help me someday to prepare cookbook for lulu? :)
<mdke> sure, we can do that for edgy, if you convert it to docbook
<pygi> we'll even have this version in docbook
<mdke> in _valid_ docbook?
<pygi> yes, valid docbook :)
<mdke> jolly good
<mdke> it'd be nice to see edubuntu docs working nicely in our repo alongside the {x//k}ubuntu ones
<mdke> at the moment we only have releasenotes/aboutedubuntu/school-advocacy
<pygi> yup, I know
<pygi> I have to poke around ubuntu-doc list so me and Susan could get svn access
<mdke> cool
<mdke> we always like new help :)
<pygi> I am always willing to help ;)
<pygi> Altought I'll try to avoid the thing which I done with network-manager :P
<pygi> (one week no sleep)
<mdke> heh
<theCore> mdke: well, it's not suitable to all tastes ...
<mdke> theCore: sorry?
<mdke> ah, the desktop guide
<mdke> it's offensive, you think?
<theCore> mdke: yeah, you need to be a geek 
<theCore> not offensive
<mdke> I don't think you need to be a geek
<mdke> hope not anyway
* theCore missed completely his joke
<mdke> ah, my bad
<mdke> pygi: here is the list of what we are publishing: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MatthewEast/CompleteBookTranslations
* pygi looks
<theCore> mdke: what did you choosed for the cover?
<pygi> mdke, why not also croatian desktop guide? :p
<mdke> pygi: it wasn't translated in time
<mdke> theCore: Madpilot has been handling it, I think I have a copy somewhere, hang on
<pygi> mdke, ah, well :)
<mdke> pygi: we'll add it when we update the translations next
<pygi> mdke, nah, don't worry ;)
<mdke> pygi: well, I intend to add all the new ones when we update the translations. Do you want me to make an exception for hr?
<mdke> theCore: sorry, can't find it
<pygi> mdke, nop, I was just worried that you would work just for hr
<pygi> if you are adding all, then this one can be good as well ;)
<theCore> mdke:  ok, thanks for trying
<mdke> pygi: if you can translate the other guides too, I'll add them
<pygi> mdke, oki, I might give it a try
<theCore> mdke: do you know how the karma thing in launchpad works?
<mdke> theCore: if you do uploads, file bugs, add specs or add translations, you get karma 
<theCore> mdke: do you know how the total is calulated?
<mdke> theCore: no
<theCore> mdke: I just wandering how much karma do you have?
<mdke> not sure, you can look
<theCore> oh, ok
<mdke> 20185
<theCore> mdke: O_o
<theCore> mdke: I have a merely 334pt
<mdke> oh well. File more bugs!
<theCore> I merely have*
<Laser_away> I've only got 5500+
<theCore> only?
<mdke> Laser_away: you SUCK
<LaserJock> I do
* mdke was just in the act of uploading the packaging guide to lulu
<mdke> tut, no full stop at the end of the abstract
<LaserJock> woot \o/
<crimsun> barely over 30k :(
* theCore got for some karma hunting
<theCore> go*
<mdke>   
<pygi> mdke, any chance you know when are langpacks updates?
<LaserJock> mdke: what's that
<mdke> LaserJock: shame on you
<mdke> pygi: after about a month I guess
<mdke> LaserJock:             .
<pygi> mdke, thanks
<LaserJock> ack, all I see is a bunch of \u codes
<mdke> oh right. You must be on some inferior operating system
<mdke> it's the abstract from the packaging guide in korean
<LaserJock> ah cool
<LaserJock> hmm, I wonder if irssi just doesn't like unicode
<mdke> yeah, you need to set some option
<LaserJock> doh, so I forgot a . ?
<mdke> yeah, you'll be judged on that
<mdke> :(
<Laser_away> that stinks
<mdke> mm?
<LaserJock> I should have seen that
<mdke> it's so trivial
<LaserJock> but annoying
<LaserJock> darn, I was hoping Corey was around
<LaserJock> I'm so excited about the Packaging Guide and Developer's Reference for Edgy
<pygi> LaserJock, :)
<LaserJock> pygi, and of course I'll be eager to see how the Edubuntu cookbook goes too
<LaserJock> :-)
<pygi> LaserJock, hehe :)
<pygi> It's called "How To Cook Edubuntu?", remember? :)
<LaserJock> yeah, I have a hard time remembering that
<LaserJock> Edubuntu Cookbook sound more natural to my American ears :-)
<pygi> well, it is actually Edubuntu Cookbook,it's just named the way it's named :P
* mdke finishes uploading pdfs to lulu, sighs
<LaserJock> so when will they be available to buy?
<pygi> LaserJock, should be right now
<mdke> once Madpilot has done the covers and we've uploaded those
<pygi> ah, covers ;)
<LaserJock> I'll try to get my Grandpa to buy the Packaging Guide when it's up ;-)
<pygi> LaserJock, lol :)
<LaserJock> he was interested in lulu.com when I was over there last weekend
<pygi> I saw cafepress also offers book printing
<pygi> not sure how cafepress and lulu compare tho
<mdke> me neither
<mdke> lulu is great though
<pygi> what type on "bindings" are we doing?
<mdke> erm
<mdke> thingy
<mdke> Perfect Bound
<pygi> there is paperback and Hardcover if I am not mistaken
<mdke> it's Perfect Bound
<mdke> there are a few types of paperback
<pygi> hm,ok
<LaserJock> mdke: did the wiki get moved yet?
<mdke> no :-(
<mdke> monday hopefully
<LaserJock> k
<LaserJock> but the docs have moved?
<mdke> eh?
<LaserJock> help.ubuntu.com/6.06 is now default when you go to help.ubuntu.com
<mdke> that's still the old server
<theCore> mdke: did you made changes in the Makefiles recently?
<mdke> theCore: probably
<theCore> because, right now the Makefile is so broken
<mdke> works fine for me
<theCore> fop.sh? 
<theCore> where is this script?
<mdke> read branches/dapper/libs/pdf/README
<theCore> does the main trunk works fine?
#ubuntu-doc 2006-06-04
<mdke> everything works fine
<theCore> bizzare... 
<mdke> if you don't want to build pdfs, don't call the pdf targets
<theCore> it fails before building the pdfs
<theCore> and I want to build the  pdfs
<mdke> well, you'll need to install fop then.
<mdke> see also https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/PDF
<theCore> ok, 2nd try on a clean checkout
<theCore> just to be sure, is `svn co https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/branches/dapper dapper-docs' is the correct command for getting the dapper branch?
<mdke> yeah
<theCore> oh, way better
<theCore> at least, I don't get a ton of: No localization exists for "c" or "". Using default "en".
<mgalvin> who actually maintains the mailing lists, jdub, heno?
<robitaille> jdub is usually the one in change of the ubuntu lists
<mdke> theCore: that is not an error.
<theCore> mdke: I know, but it's just annoying
<mdke> you're a strange guy
<mgalvin> robitaille: thanks
<mgalvin> robitaille: hey if you are interested at all, i started to add some of the articles you find to the ubuntu weekly newsletter, feel free to add them there if you like
<theCore> mdke: maybe a NO_LOC_ERROR flag, would be useful
<mdke> maybe just ignore it?
<robitaille> mgalvin:  ok
<theCore> mdke: that's also an option...
<LaserJock> hmm, I'm starting to like epiphany
* mdke pats LaserJock 
<LaserJock> ohhhhhhh
<LaserJock> gdebi rocks hard core
<crimsun> ain't it?
<crimsun> [nice] 
<mdke> yeah
<crimsun> granted, I'm used to ``dpkg -i foo.deb && apt-get -f install''
<LaserJock> yeah, me too
<mdke> planet is getting a 404 from my blog apparently. Can you guys all see http://mdke.org/
<LaserJock> but this shows  you the list of files
<LaserJock> and shows you control info so you can make sure you did it right ;-)
<LaserJock> mdke: yep
<crimsun> reachable her
<crimsun> e
<mdke> weird, stupid planet must have cracky dns servers
<LaserJock> ackkk, my starter page is file:///usr/share/ubuntu-artwork/home/locales/index-en_GB.html
<mdke> nice!
<LaserJock> anybody use IE in wine here?
<LaserJock> there is 1 site my wife likes to visit and it only works on Windows with flash
* mdke nods, reminds him of gf with her soap websites
<LaserJock> and I can
<LaserJock> can't seem to get a driver for the printer in Windows
<LaserJock> Corey!
<theCore> crimsun: why the apt-get -f install ?
<Burgundavia> hey Laser
* Burgundavia just woke up
<theCore> mdke: *sigh*, I know now why the docs didn't built properly
<theCore> warning: failed to load external entity "/home/matt/tmp/docbook-xsl-snapshot/fo/docbook.xsl"
<theCore> compilation error: file ../libs/pdf/ubuntu-pdf.xsl line 11 element import
<theCore> xsl:import : unable to load /home/matt/tmp/docbook-xsl-snapshot/fo/docbook.xsl
<theCore> make[1] : *** [server-pdf-C]  Error 5
<LaserJock> theCore: apt-get -f install grabs the deps since dpkg doesn't do it
<theCore> mdke: because smart guy called `matt' hardcoded the location of the stylesheet... ;)
<theCore> LaserJock: ah, ok thanks for the info
<mdke> theCore: that's not very nice
<mdke> that was done for a reason, as you could probably have guessed
<theCore> mdke: (it's a joke)
* theCore completely missed again his joke
<mdke> ok
<theCore> btw, where is the stylesheet?
<mdke> google will tell you
<theCore> /usr/share/xml/docbook/stylesheet/nwalsh/fo/docbook.xsl ?
<mdke> if it was there, you think I would have hardcoded another one?
<mdke> you have to download them from the internet
* theCore must learn to shut up
<mdke> then change the address in ubuntu-pdf.xsl to match where you put them
<theCore> mdke: wouldn't be better to add it into the repository?
<mdke> theCore: all the stylesheets?
<mdke> it's quite big
<mdke> and no one really builds the pdfs apart from me, because they are on the website
<theCore> mdke: how big actually?
<mdke> i dunno, lemme look
<mdke> 16 megabytes
<LaserJock> uggh
<theCore> gezz, 16mb for a sheetstyle? 
<mdke> theCore: lots of stylesheets
<theCore> mdke: ah, well maybe it worth it then
<mgalvin> hey guys, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter/Issue1 is about all set in case anyone has time to give it a quick review
<mgalvin> trappist: ^^^
<mdke> very nice
<theCore> LaserJock: are you working on the PG?
<LaserJock> not right at this moment
<theCore> ok
<LaserJock> are you?
<theCore> I'm trying
<LaserJock> what section?
<theCore> I thought the Sync & Merge needed some clarifications, but it seem that it's way better than I thought
<LaserJock> hehe
<theCore> so, I'm now wandering in the guide, trying to find something
<theCore> maybe I could clean the XML ... 
<LaserJock> is it that bad? ;-)
<theCore> well, the PG the cleanest of all guides
<LaserJock> well, it has the fewest people working on it
<theCore> LaserJock: do you use a 4 space-long tab?
<LaserJock> I don't think I did "replace tab with spaces" but usually I use 2-4 space tabs
<LaserJock> probably 4 though
<theCore> the xml is indented with tab
<theCore> which is fine
<theCore> I just have to change the tab-width to whatever I want if I'm not happy
<theCore> LaserJock: maybe a better coverage of the packagers utilities would be good
<LaserJock> sure
<Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WelcomeWindow
<Burgundavia> uhh
<crimsun> theCore: referring vs. gdebi?
<crimsun> theCore: if so, it's to install resolved dependencies.
<theCore> crimsun: could be an idea...
<crimsun> theCore: ?
<theCore> crimsun: oh, 
<crimsun> theCore: that's the way it [has been]  was done in Debian for the past eight years or so :)
<crimsun> gdebi does it nicely and with style :)
<theCore> crimsun: I think dpkg, doesn't allow to install package with unmet dependencies
<crimsun> theCore: correct, because it doesn't do any resolution, hence apt-get -f install :)
<theCore> crimsun: ah
<theCore> crimsun: yeah, I remember know, I had to do it with opera
<crimsun> yep, that's precisely how I tested gdebi
<crimsun> "will gdebi do this better?"
<theCore> that was one of my first amazement on Linux; the ability to launch GUI apps from the command prompt
<theCore> crimsun: does gdebi did it better?
<crimsun> theCore: certainly with more style
<theCore> :)
<mgalvin> jsgotangco: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter/Issue1
<mgalvin> just about all set so i think i am going to send it to ubuntu-news before i go to bed
<mgalvin> take a peek and lemme know what you think
<jsgotangco> i'd say
<mgalvin> i just thought it would be nice to send them out each weekend
<jsgotangco> although the edubuntu team might still want a detailed edubuntu newsletter every week though
<jsgotangco> but i've just read this one, and I say its good to go
<mgalvin> aside from the release its a slow news week, normally i think each distro will have more (and more detailed) info
<jsgotangco> yes
<jsgotangco> i think edgy opens in 2 days
<jsgotangco> or 3
<mgalvin> yea
<mgalvin> jane and mdz stressed one letter, but if the edubuntu team wants a dedicated letter i would not object but i don't know if it would really be necessary
<jsgotangco> let's see how it goes next week, there's no activity after release so there isn't much to write about
<jsgotangco> but i agree this is like resurrecting traffic
<jsgotangco> brb i need to change locales to make console examples
<mgalvin> jsgotangco: i will send it on its way then, ok? and i think each will have more content next week anyway
<jsgotangco> yeah
<mgalvin> k
<mdke> Madpilot: are you in mid release party?
<Madpilot> just got back from it, actually. it's 0246 here.
<Madpilot> was good, only half a dozen people but much beer and geeking ;)
<mdke> cool :)
<mdke> happy dapper then
<Madpilot> thanks
<Madpilot> (especially now that I've got everything reinstalled and do indeed have a happy dapper on this box)
<mdke> nice
<lastnode> mdke, DRP in progress ;-)
<mdke> lastnode: cool!
<lastnode> Madpilot, you asked here in #ubuntu-offtopic? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SriLankanTeam/DapperReleaseParty
<Madpilot> lastnode, nice - I just got back from our small release party here - mostly an excuse to drink beer with friends I don't see often enough, with a couple of new people this time
<lastnode> Madpilot, we've given out a lot of CDs actually
<Madpilot> nice - what time of day is it in Sri Lanka right now
<Madpilot> ?
<mdke> lastnode: got some new translators?
<lastnode> mdke, trying to find
<lastnode> @now colombo
<lastnode> Madpilot, it's 15:41
<Ubugtu> Current time in Asia/Colombo: June 04 2006, 16:11:32
<lastnode> there we go
<lastnode> we changed time zones
<Madpilot> ours was an evening party, at a private house - it would be interesting to do a public/daytime event
<Madpilot> not sure we've got the manpower locally, though
<lastnode> Madpilot, got pictures! uploading
<jsgotangco> mdke: ping?
<jsgotangco> mdke: who said the Style Guide is in the Public domain?
<jsgotangco> all the docs had their relevant license but it seems the style guide went to PD when it was explicitly licensed as CC-by-SA when it was announced
<jsgotangco> GFDL+CC-by-SA
<mdke> jsgotangco: eh?
<jsgotangco> http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/styleguide/en/index.html
<jsgotangco> it must have been a parsing thing during migration
<mdke> jsgotangco: parsing? migration?
<mdke>                   <releaseinfo>This document is in the Public Domain. </releasei nfo>
<jsgotangco> I'm positive that doc isn't PD
<mdke> jsgotangco: ok. But it says that it is
<mdke> you'll need to talk to the maintainer to find out more though
<mdke> i.e. jeff
<mdke> i vaguely remember jeff asking each author's permission for a change of licence. Dunno if it was to PD though, I can't remember
<jsgotangco> its dual license as our other docs im pretty sure it is because i made the annoucement but i will verify it as well
<lastnode> mdke, picthaz - http://flickr.com/photos/mahangu/sets/72157594154931177/
<jsgotangco> where is this?
<mdke> columbo
<mdke> nice
<jsgotangco> nice
<jsgotangco> posh place even
<jsgotangco> is that a monk?
<smeacterne> hey guys - could somebody search their irc logs for this channel and see if any messages were sent from: rjvqv177
<smeacterne> I think I got hacked in the few days I've been away
<mdke> ok, but I don't remember it
<mdke> smeacterne: nope, is clean.
<smeacterne> ok... thanks mdke
<smeacterne> I'm going to have to dig around and see if I got hacked, or if there was just some server fluke
<smeacterne> I'll be back when I get it sorted.. :-)
<sladen> mdke: http://www.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ needs some work
<sladen> it currently says "Ubuntu doesn't have a pretty graphical installer, it has a FAST and EASY installer." ...
<mdke> yes
<mdke> filing a bug might be in order.
<sladen> mdke: http://www.canonical.com/ doesn't mention employees in South Africa
<mdke> sladen: no offence, but what has that got to do with me?
<sladen> mdke: where's a better place?
<mdke> sladen: http://canonical.com/contact
<mdke> ?
<sladen> mdke: you have a reputuation for getting things done, so it's easier to aims things at you than leaving them floating in the air
<mdke> that's nice. But in this case I can't - I don't work for Canonical or have access to their website
<mdke> as for the website, I can help
<mdke> but I don't have much time to work on the alternative text, so if you file a bug or create a wiki page with better text, I will take a look, poke Henrik or upload it myself if it's not invasive
<mdke> sladen: or if you don't have time either, I bet you can convince Corey to do it 
<sladen> mdke: yeah, I noticed he wasn't in this channel
<Madpilot> just updated https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuEyeCandy with shiny Dapper screenshots
<Laser_away> sladen: are there employees in South Africa?
<Burgundavia> Laser_away: of Canonical? yes
<dsas> isn't janeW there?
<Burgundavia> Laser_away: no response to my email yet
<Burgundavia> dsas: yes, but she is leaving
<dsas> Yeah, I think I heard that somewhere. 
<Laser_away> Burgundavia: I thought she said she was the last, but I could be mistaken
<Burgundavia> she was, but I think her husband might be being hired
<mdke> I think sladen meant the people at tsf and hbd, dunno. They're not at canonical though
<mdke> Madpilot: any luck with the old covers? I uploaded the pdfs to lulu
<Madpilot> mdke, haven't even started, been busy with other stuff. I'll have a go with them in a few minutes.
<mdke> Madpilot: oh awesome. Cheers
<mdke> I feel like I'm bugging you too much
<Madpilot> np. re-installing the whole damn system has been a bit of a distraction here ;)
<Burgundavia> ok, I have done my apt-get work today
<mdke> Burgundavia: what's wrong with dovecot in dapper?
<Madpilot> mdke, http://www.warbard.ca/temp/Ubuntu_Covers/UDG_it.png
<Burgundavia> mdke: no, idea , the note was there before I got to the page
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> dovecot is in main...
<mdke> Madpilot: looks good. do you have a script or are you doing it by hand?
<Madpilot> bit of both.
<Madpilot> robotgeek's script gets me the translated strings, then I just copy/paste into Inkscape
<Madpilot> and export as png from there
<mdke> Madpilot: ok. cool. Can you post me the back covers, and I'll start uploading some stuff
<Madpilot> the back covers are all just plain
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> same for all languages
<Madpilot> http://www.warbard.ca/temp/Ubuntu_Covers/Lulu_back_covers.tar.gz
<Madpilot> ^^^ that should be the final size for the backs
<mdke> great, thanks
<Madpilot> pt & pt_BR are up at http://www.warbard.ca/temp/Ubuntu_Covers/ nw
<Madpilot> now, even
<poningru> in moinmoin how do you redirect?
<Madpilot> poningru, #REDIRECT NewPage
<poningru> sweet thanks
<poningru> you mean [NewPage]  right?
* poningru tests it
<mdke> just NewPage
<poningru> oh...
<Madpilot> mdke, es & sv up
<poningru> thanks
<Madpilot> mdke, id up for UDG... I can't get the Chinese & Korean text to display properly for some reason
<mdke> Madpilot: ok. thanks. Am uploading back covers
<Madpilot> http://www.warbard.ca/temp/Ubuntu_Covers/XDG_pt_BR.png <-- pt_BR Xubuntu DG cover
<mdke> Madpilot: can you give me good colour for the various spines?
<mdke> something that will more or less beldn in with the front/back for each theme
<mdke> not only beldn in, but also blend in
<mdke> LaserJock: btw, how was the spine on your book? font big enough and so on?
<Madpilot> mdke, the orange at the bottom of the Ubuntu DGs cover is #f44800, if you want to use that
<Madpilot> XDG blue is #0081D3
<LaserJock> mdke: yeah, it did wrap a little bit though
<mdke> LaserJock: how so?
<LaserJock> mdke: like the spine was just a little too thin
<LaserJock> just a smidgen
<mdke> so a smaller font?
<LaserJock> actually, I'm looking at it now
<LaserJock> it looks like just wasn't centered quite right
<LaserJock> the front cover is like 1mm on the spine
<mdke> tut tut
<LaserJock> but the font is good IMO
<mdke> alright
<mdke> not that I can remember what font it was :/
<LaserJock> hehe
<mdke> Madpilot: http://mdke.org/tmp/cover.pdf
<Madpilot> mdke, looks very cool
<Madpilot> should we go for the tan on the spine instead though?
<mdke> it might be safer, if there is a risk of one overlapping onto the other
<mdke> I think it looks pretty cool though, don't mind
<Madpilot> the UDG tan is #FDD99B
<mdke> ok, gotcha
<mdke> Xubuntu?
<Madpilot> XDG's grey is #99A9C0
<Madpilot> Kubuntu is white, and the blue is #AACCEE
<LaserJock> mdke: my solution to the spine thing was to make the Packaging Guide thicker ;-)
<sladen> mdke: charles is there
<Burgundavia> sladen: didn't charles move to Impi?
#ubuntu-doc 2007-05-28
<nixternal> jjesse: can you give me that patch in txt format?
<nixternal> it is in html format on lp
<nixternal> actually, I can just edit manually
<ryanakca> nixternal: well, since you don't know about Qt and C++, I'm sure you know about KDE documentation
<nixternal> what is that?
<ryanakca> does anybody with 'gobby' installed feel like "mentoring" me in rewriting my KMail + gpg-agent article?
<nixternal> ryanakca: you want to know the easiest way to do what you want?
<nixternal> download and use Desktop MoinMoin
<ryanakca> Desktop MoinMoin? okies
<nixternal> you can do it in wiki, and then export to docbook with the new version
<ryanakca> And... what do I want?
<ryanakca> ah
<nixternal> ya, I have been messing with it here lately
<nixternal> it is actually working fairly well
<ryanakca> nixternal: hmmm. If I'm exporting it to docbook... where is it going? I was thinking it would go into Community Documentation on help.u.c...
<nixternal> ahh, then no need to export it to docbook..I thought that is why you asked for mentoring
* ryanakca is more concerned with the proper formatting/structure, as well as the "quality"
<nixternal> gotcha
<nixternal> you can always post it to the wiki and work from there..much easier than asking me to fireup gobby ;)
<ryanakca> hmmm... but I'm more than willing to convert it to docbook, and you can stick it somewheres
<nixternal> I am afraid of where you might want me to stick it ;p
<ryanakca> I dunno
<nixternal> ryanakca: I would love to put it into KDE documentation for one, and if it doesn't fit there well do to it being distro dependant, then I would love to have it in Kubuntu docs
* ryanakca hasn't really read any documentation other than a few man pages
<ryanakca> It would have to be distro dependant...
<nixternal> speaking of manpages, I actually have to create one in order to be considered for a debian developer
<nixternal> that one through me for a loop
<ryanakca> hehe
<ryanakca> get a KDE app and run kdemangen.pl on it :P
<nixternal> hehe
<nixternal> isn't there a xml or docbook 2 man?
<ryanakca> You created it... kindof...
<nixternal> I have used help2man before
<ryanakca> hmmm
<jjesse> nixternal: did you get that patch correctly?
<nixternal> I just did it by hand...it was spitting it out as html on lp..did you select the patch button?
<jjesse> hmm don't remember what i did, i thought i just attached a file
<nixternal> ya, if it is a patch you need to select the patch checkbox just under the folder icon when you attach
<jjesse> ok, will do in the future
<ryanakca> nixternal: Any idea what the gentoo documentation is released under?
<jjesse> license wise?
<nixternal> gfdl I thought
<nixternal> cc-by-sa for us
* ryanakca likes the intro from http://gentoo-wiki.com/HOWTO_KMail_gpg-agent_kde
<ryanakca> but.. if someone is going to be installing gpg-agent with kmail, they know what gpg, -agent and kmail are.
<nixternal> http://gentoo-wiki.com/Gentoo_Linux_Wiki:Copyrights
<nixternal> Unless otherwise stated, the content of this wiki is in public domain.
<ryanakca> ah, so, safe to include the What is gpg-agent blurb?
<ryanakca> nixternal: how do you include boxes like those in http://gentoo-wiki.com/HOWTO_KMail_gpg-agent_kde#Setup for moinmoin? I know I could use tables, but anything more elegant?
<nixternal> not in our version unfortunately
<jjesse> nixternal: email message sent, please add in your .02
<nixternal> will do
<ryanakca> nixternal: done.
<ryanakca> I just have do figure out how to place a paragraph in a table though... it seems to be ignoring [[BR] ] 
<ryanakca> nixternal: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/KMailGPGAgent#preview
<LaserJock> hmm, bzr again
<LaserJock> nixternal: have you been doing any docs in bzr?
<nixternal> no buntu docs no
<nixternal> messing with jjesse docs, and kubuntu-system-settings, and a couple of websites..and the list goes on
<LaserJock> I'm pretty hesitant still
<LaserJock> I want to see LP with the smartserver stuff
<LaserJock> and time that and see how fast it is
<nixternal> it is a tad bit faster now..hell, I can commit faster with bzr than I can doc svn right now
<LaserJock> yeah, but commit speed hasn't really ever been an issue I don't think
<nixternal> nah, just the initial checkout is slow
<crimsun> the initial commit, too.
<nixternal> and remember you are pulling in the entire history as well
<crimsun> and quadruply so on a 33.6kbps
<crimsun> remember not all of us are on broadband.
<nixternal> and we need to see if there was an issue with the export from svn to the import of bzr as well
<nixternal> crimsun: then I suggest they get broadband ;)
<crimsun> nixternal: tell that to the providers.
<nixternal> there are only 8 contribs at most to docs anyways right now :)
<nixternal> point me to them, I will gettum
<crimsun> I'll suffer for a few more weeks. After I move, I'll just get fiber.
<nixternal> oooh
<nixternal> living in DC, there is fiber everywhere
<LaserJock> jjesse usually uses dialup
<crimsun> yes, and I won't be paying for it. :)
<nixternal> LaserJock: but that is understandable with jjesse seeing most of his neighbors just purchased AOL accounts. I know where he lives...remember Deliverance? :)
<nixternal> SQUEEL!!!
<LaserJock> I think we can handle dialup users by providing weekly/monthly tarballs
<nixternal> that isn't to bad of an idea..but only if we get them asking
<crimsun> weekly could be managed. I'd rsync, much as I do now.
<nixternal> also with bzr you can do the lightweight checkouts
<LaserJock> yeah, but then ...
<LaserJock> why not just keep using svn
<LaserJock> the thing is, with our current workflow I really don't see any real advantage with bzr
<nixternal> just trying to be like everyone else ;)
<nixternal> lets switch to git
<nixternal> ;p
<LaserJock> well, switch RCS just 'cause is pretty stupid, IMO
<LaserJock> I think we need to sort of rework workflow/repo structure if we want to use bzr
<nixternal> oh most definitely
<nixternal> I think having xubuntu-docs, kubuntu-docs, edubuntu-docs, and ubuntu-docs all within the Ubuntu Documentation Project would be good
<nixternal> or could be good rather
<LaserJock> yeah, but that means reworking things
<nixternal> well, I can easily separate kubuntu docs from svn w/o any issues
<nixternal> I would need trunk/libs and thats about it
<LaserJock> the svn structure is specificly designed to minimize redundancy
<LaserJock> and to enourage collaboration, team spirit
<jjesse> sorry was afk playing madden and now heading to bed
<jjesse> i'm on dsl now
<jjesse> and thanks nixternal
<jjesse> svn just seems more cumbersome to maintain
<jjesse> anyways email the list as  i'm off to bed
<LaserJock> it's only cumbersome because he keeps forgetting his svn password ;-)
<nixternal> hahahahahahahaha
<nixternal> you know what we should do if we keep svn
<nixternal> svn+ssh
<nixternal> that way there you can't lose your key
<nixternal> debian is svn+ssh, kde is svn+ssh
<LaserJock> yeah, seems like that would help
<mdke> morning all
<ubotu> New bug: #117382 in ubuntu-docs (main) "Usability of 'Manually Mounting and Unmounting File Systems'" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/117382
<ubotu> New bug: #48852 in ubuntu-docs (main) "relogin isn't sufficient for xserver config changes [desktopguide - config-system] " [Low,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/48852
<nixternal> hrmm
<mdke> nixternal: outrageous... encouraging people to post howtos on their blogs
<LaserJock> heh
<nixternal> lol
<nixternal> I knew you would say something about that :)
<mdke> I've actually been planning a plea for bloggers to contribute their howtos to the wiki
<mdke> there is a lot of good material out there which doesn't get near the wiki :(
<LaserJock> I suppose
<nixternal> I am getting ready to do a Howto on Howto post a Howto :)
<nixternal> hahaha
<LaserJock> I do find a lot of good stuff on blogs
* mdke nods
<mdke> especially the more technical stuff
<LaserJock> yeah
<mdke> so LaserJock, what about this bzr business
<LaserJock> heh
<LaserJock> if LP gets the bzr smartserver then the speed should be quite a bit improved
<mdke> I don't think the "waiting on RT" issue is a big one
<mdke> it's speed vs convenience of using LP
<LaserJock> and if it doesn't have smartserver right now I think it's going to be real soon now
<mdke> is the speed poor even if you use it without downloading the whole history?
<LaserJock> it's still a bit slower than svn, but not nearly as much as a full branching
<LaserJock> each release of bzr gets faster and faster
<LaserJock> the biggest reason I can see
<mdke> right
<LaserJock> would be the ability to check out just kubuntu docs, or edubuntu docs, etc.
<mdke> I'm not really sure about that
<LaserJock> I see quite a few people that one to contribute to a specific area
<mdke> there is common stuff for all of them
<LaserJock> but they get overwhelmed with having the whole repo
<LaserJock> I agree
<LaserJock> that's why I'm hesitant about
<LaserJock> *what
<mdke> let's think this through
<mdke> what would be the consequence of keeping all the packages separately?
<LaserJock> well, I think it could depend on how we do it
<mdke> theoretically, not much; I guess. A small amount of effort to keep the common stuff updated across them all. In practice, I suspect that it would be problematic in terms of each sub-group following what the others are doing
<LaserJock> I *think* we could split it up into something like common, ubuntu, edubuntu, kubuntu, xubuntu, teamstuff
<LaserJock> so if you want to work on kubuntu you could get a branch of common and kubuntu
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> I don't like that much
<LaserJock> for technical reasons?
<mdke> no :)
<LaserJock> right
<mdke> just a feeling
<LaserJock> me too
<mdke> I don't have a problem with nuking common and simply putting the relevant docs into each branch
<mdke> I'm just concerned that the benefits of having us all working together would be lost
<mdke> fragmentation etc
<LaserJock> yeah, I can certainly understand that
<LaserJock> although I'm not sure if I like the idea of having a technical constraint in order to keep the team together
<mdke> but then again, do any other packages which appear in kubuntu, edubuntu and ubuntu share the same branch or source package?
<LaserJock> not that I know of
<mdke> maybe *ubuntu-desktop
<nixternal> there we go...howto post a howto
<LaserJock> those are done from separate source
<LaserJock> the -desktops are separate source built from seed files that are in bzr in ~ubuntu-core-dev
<nixternal> svn co https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/trunk/kubuntu
<LaserJock> ideally that's the situation I'd like to see with the docs
<nixternal> ya, so that doesn't work out well
<mdke> LaserJock: can you explain how that works?
<nixternal> only thing though, that won't pull in the trunk/libs or trunk/common
<LaserJock> mdke: well, the seed files are stored in bzr in ~ubuntu-core-dev
<nixternal> I think another reason was hit on my LaserJock last night, and that was the "forgetting of passwords"...which could be curbed by using svn+ssh
<LaserJock> each derive and release is a separate branch
<mdke> nixternal: or the writing down of passwords
<LaserJock> so edubuntu-feisty, ubuntu-gutsy, etc.
<nixternal> mdke: that makes to much sense thoug ;)
<nixternal> s/thoug/though
<mdke> nixternal: jjesse's problem is that he keeping forgetting his gnupg password, which is *quite odd*. I have no confidence that he will remember his ssh key password better :)
<nixternal> and using svn+ssh would also prevent us from having to go to RT everytime to add a user...we would just add their key to a script file in svn
<nixternal> but ssh doesn't use your gpg password
<mdke> no, it uses your ssh password/phrase
<nixternal> it uses a plain text password
<nixternal> our svn uses some silly password..it don't use my ssh password either...I have the password in a txt file in ~/.ssh
<mdke> no, you've missed the point
<nixternal> I shouldn't say silly, but it uses plain text when it is just ssh
<mdke> he can't remember his GNUPG key password in order to decrypt the email with his svn password
<nixternal> are we talking bzr or ssh with the ssh password/phrase
<nixternal> mdke: oh..hahahaGHAHAH@H#@
<mdke> if he can't remember that, then why will he be able to remember his ssh password?
<nixternal> holy smokes I did not catch that
<mdke> :)
<mdke> anyway, RT is quite quick with svn requests nowadays
<mdke> still, if there are reasons to use bzr over svn, then we should consider it anyway
<nixternal> only thing I don't like about using svn is if I lose my laptop, someone can commit quite easily...svn+ssh curbs that as well...a little more security really
<LaserJock> yeah, I think it's minimally more convenient to do authentication via LP team
<nixternal> well I think waiting for the module that LaserJock was referring to may be best
<mdke> LaserJock: nod
<LaserJock> I think the strongest point is that bzr would open up new workflows
<nixternal> and we can give it a shot in a bit
<LaserJock> not that it makes our current workflow better
<mdke> potentially we could move to bzr and keep a single repo, and then consider split repos later
<nixternal> well, people can create their own personal bzr branch if needed, and we would still be able to pull from it and merge it into svn quite easily
<nixternal> and vice-versa
<LaserJock> mdke: I think really we perhaps need a spec/wiki page
<LaserJock> we need to get the bzr guys (like lifeless) to help us out
<mdke> ok. are you volunteering?
<nixternal> another thing I could possibly take a little flak over is licensing...it seems there may be some unhappy people coming down the tubes since Kubuntu docs are CC-by-SA and not GFDL anymore. I am guessing the KDE and Debian guys that have used some of our docs and vice-versa in the past
<nixternal> Riddell pinged me earlier but has yet to respond
<nixternal> I will keep you abreast of the situation though
<mdke> debian has used our docs?
<nixternal> ya..I didn't know that until I got emailed today by one
<LaserJock> well
<mdke> oh well; they are still free to do so :)
<mdke> it's not like we've closed anything up
<nixternal> cc-by-sa == non-free to Debian Policy though
<LaserJock> the email said they think the docs should be done more in collaboration
<mdke> nixternal: so is gfdl
<nixternal> the list email did
<LaserJock> for debian it has to be GPL
<nixternal> yup
<nixternal> or MIT/BSD and such
<LaserJock> well, it has to be compatible with GPL
<mdke> I haven't seen these emails
<LaserJock> i.e. not GFDL or CC
<LaserJock> mdke: nixternal when and made a mistake by emailing the debian documentation mailing list
<nixternal> I am guessing with the new release of the GFDL that is due out about the same time as the GPL v3
<nixternal> haha LaserJock
<mdke> spontaneously?
<mdke> or prompted by something else?
<nixternal> I had helped with one of their documents prior...not spontaneously
<nixternal> prompted by a KDE/Debian talk last night
<mdke> so they have used some of our documentation, and can no longer do so?
<nixternal> well from the talk in #kde-docs yesterday that would be a yes...on the Kubuntu side of things
<nixternal> Debian doesn't have much KDE help it seems
<mdke> what did they use?
<nixternal> I couldn't tell you
<nixternal> I haven't even seen a KDE based doc out of them truthfully
<mdke> It seems really strange the idea that *our* upstream is complaining about our licensing
<nixternal> I wonder how they use KDE documentation then seeing it is GFDL
<mdke> anyone, bbl
<mdke> anyway*
<nixternal> hehe
<nixternal> later
<LaserJock> GFDL is ok as long as it doesn't have invariant sections
<LaserJock> I think
<nixternal> LaserJock: you are correct...I tend to forget about the invariance
<LaserJock> which is not cool, in some instances
<LaserJock> Debian had to basically strip out the TeX documentation
<LaserJock> and RMS isn't so happy :-)
<nixternal> RMS should know better though
<LaserJock> yeah, but he made some really good sense
<nixternal> I was told by Peter Brown that they are supposedly removing the "invariant sections" part(s)
<LaserJock> like he set the license in the doc as a invariant section
<LaserJock> *an
<LaserJock> because you should be changing the license, right?
<ryanakca> nixternal: fixed a few typos, etc in https://help.ubuntu.com/community/KMailGPGAgent ... how do I export to docbook with Moin Moin desktop?
<nixternal> in the drop down menu there is the option
<ryanakca> hmmm. Okies
<nixternal> LaserJock: I should be changing it?
* nixternal is confused
<LaserJock> nixternal: changing what/
<LaserJock> ?
<nixternal> [ LaserJock]  because you should be changing the license, right?
<nixternal> which license? and why me?
<LaserJock> bah
<LaserJock> let me rewrite my sentence
<nixternal> lol
<LaserJock> RMS set the licensing section of documentation as invariant
<LaserJock> since people deriving from the work shouldn't be changing the text of the license
<nixternal> ahh, got it
<nixternal> yes you are correct
<LaserJock> like if I working from a doc that was GFDL I shouldn't be able to reword the GFDL
<LaserJock> so that really did make sense to me
<nixternal> correct...at least what I could gather from the Debian lists from 2004 when that all started
<nixternal> I also noticed that while watching the GPL v3 highlights where people could leave messages, I swore I seen the "invariant" section in there as well
<nixternal> and someone commented on it
<LaserJock> so according to the GFDL you can only make "secondary" material as invariant
<LaserJock> which is another reason I don't mind it
<nixternal> right
<nixternal> there is a "Secondary" and "Invariant" section
<LaserJock> so I really don't have a problem with GFDL
<LaserJock> but I can sort of see where it'd be DFSG non-free
<LaserJock> but I think it's an area where DFSG is a big pain in the butt and not realistic
<nixternal> OK, so the invariant applies to the secondary
<LaserJock> you can *only* mak invariant a secondary section
<LaserJock> "Secondary Section" is a named appendix or a front-matter section of
<LaserJock> the Document that deals exclusively with the relationship of the
<LaserJock> publishers or authors of the Document to the Document's overall subject
<LaserJock> (or to related matters) and contains nothing that could fall directly
<LaserJock> within that overall subject.
<LaserJock> oops didn't mean to paste that much
<nixternal> hehe, I have it open reading it as well
<LaserJock> so I really don't see why those invariant sections restricte anything meaningful
<nixternal> ya, me either
<nixternal> I need to re-read that debian list again to see their reasoning
<LaserJock> but definition it doesn't effect the real contents of the doc
<LaserJock> well, they don't care how significant it is, I think
<LaserJock> if it restricts modification in anyway I think it's non-DFSG
<nixternal> that legal mumbu jumbo is enough to drive someone to drink
<nixternal> s/mumbu/mumbo
<LaserJock> yeah
<LaserJock> I really dislike licensing, especially doc licensing
<nixternal> hehe, it should just say "You are free to do whatever"
<LaserJock> but then ... do I want people to do "whatever"?
<LaserJock> I go between wanting to MIT everything I do
<LaserJock> to wanting to make everything proprietary evilness ;-)
<nixternal> the MIT license from what I can understand isn't to shabby, nor is the BSD license
<nixternal> the BSD license will allow you to make it proprietary evilness
<nixternal> what exactly is a "front-matter section"
<nixternal> never mind, that same sentence tries to explain it
<LaserJock> like I was thinking the other day what it'd be like to find out code I'd written as used by hackers/terrorists/bad guys to do harm
<ryanakca> nixternal: where would you like the docbook for the KMail thing? ubuntu-doc ML?
<nixternal> you can put it there or fire it off to me
<nixternal> make sure you dual license that bad boy though so I can use it with Kubuntu docs as well as KDE docs
<nixternal> ;D
<ryanakca> dual license...
* ryanakca scratches his head
<ryanakca> send me the legal blurb/tell me how to do that, and sure
<nixternal> in order for me to be able to use your work, you need to license it either GFDL for KDE or CC-by-SA for Kubuntu, or both :)
<nixternal> you can explicitly state that in a signed email as well
<nixternal> if you do, at least link me to the GFDL and the CC-by-SA 2.5 license
<ryanakca> Kubuntu won't take GFDL?
<nixternal> instead of attaching the huge things there
<ryanakca> ox
<ryanakca> ok
<nixternal> nope, only CC-by-SA unless Riddell pushes for GFDL/GPL
<LaserJock> ohhh for goodness sakes :/
<nixternal> hehe
<LaserJock> sorry, just reading planet :(
<nixternal> lol
<nixternal> which one?
* ryanakca pushes Riddell to push for GFDL
<nixternal> ryanakca: something tells me that his ping earlier was going to get into that
<LaserJock> nixternal: \sh leaving Ubuntu ... again
<nixternal> I just noticed he is back online
<nixternal> LaserJock: hahahaha
<nixternal> you are just now reading about it?
<nixternal> you didn't see them arguing in motu earlier?
<nixternal> I am upset with the fact they a) argued it out in a public channel, and b) it got posted tot he planet afterwards
<nixternal> that is the stuff the FUD/anti-Ubuntu people love to see
<nixternal> you know, and Dell enjoys seeing it as well
<LaserJock> darn it
<nixternal> holy smokes, I just read the 2006 vote for the GFDL and the DFSG...talk about mind boggling
<nixternal> so now I totally understand the "secondary section"
<nixternal> it is the a section created with the beliefs and/or opinions of the author...therefor the author makes that section invariant
<ryanakca> nixternal: hmmm. Do I need to add the licenses as a comment in the docbook file?
<nixternal> which is commendable, as you wouldn't want anyone editing and changing your beliefs/opinions and still calling them yours
<nixternal> it makes sense, and I agree with option 3, it would be considered unethical to do so
<nixternal> ryanakca: you probably should
<nixternal> bbiaf..need to check up on the weather outside
<ryanakca> comments... <!-- comment -->
<ryanakca> ok
<nixternal> sure
<ryanakca> nixternal: hmmm. And, saving the file messes up the structure... *points to #docbook*
<ryanakca> any idea?
<ryanakca> weee! I fixed it with `tidy`
<nixternal> <!-- Dual License under GFDL and CC-by-SA -->
<nixternal> haha
<ryanakca> ah, that's all I need?
<nixternal> and link to the licenses I guess
<nixternal> but ifyou got it, don't worry about it then
* ryanakca had links to them, and the legal copyright blurb for GFDL
<ryanakca> hmmm.
<nixternal> you are good to go then
<ryanakca> How do I "visualize"/read the docbook. I can see the xml stuff, but reading it?
<ryanakca> rendering is probably a better term
<nixternal> meinproc *.xml
<ryanakca> nixternal: Error: CALS tables must specify the number of columns.
<nixternal> hrmm
<nixternal> send me the xml file, let me take a quick look at it
<ryanakca> ok
<nixternal> brb..I need to eat some food
<ryanakca> sent
<ryanakca> ok
<ryanakca> when you come back, I've cleaned up a bit of it, and fixed that error. It still doesn't properly generate the .html... it creates two files, one with intro and TOC, and another with conclusion.
<ryanakca> http://blog.ryanak.ca/KMailGPGAgent.xml
<nixternal> oh wow, the moin2docbook doesn't make a pretty output does it
<nixternal> it actually creates invalid xml
<ryanakca> hmmm
<ryanakca> that's what it looks like after running tidy -m -i -xml KMailGPGAgent.xml on it, btw
<ryanakca> feel free to mess around with the formatting...
<nixternal> hrmm, from into to conclusion
<nixternal> did you already post to the wiki this document?
<nixternal> ya, that made sense
<ryanakca> I have an old copy on the ubuntu wiki, just a sec
<nixternal> where is your new copy wikified?
<nixternal> wtf is up with me
<nixternal> where is your new WIKIFIED copy
<mdke> nixternal: what moin2docbook are you using?
<nixternal> the latest in MoinMoin Personal Desktop
<ryanakca> nixternal: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/KMailGPGAgent
<mdke> nixternal: ah, that is rubbish
<ryanakca> nixternal: I had fixed it up on my desktop wiki, just had to update the help.ubuntu.com
<nixternal> cool ryanakca
<nixternal> is there another version mdke?
* ryanakca brb, restarting X
<mdke> nixternal: there is a test wiki with the latest code, but it appears to be broken
<nixternal> hrmm...maybe I can find the latest code and create a new plugin with it
<mdke> that would be very helpful
<mdke> http://moinmoin.wikiwikiweb.de/DocBook
<mdke> Burgwork: damn; we have communication issues
* mdke beds
<nixternal> g'nite
#ubuntu-doc 2007-05-29
* ryanakca pokes X
<mdke> morning all
<beuno> mornin mdke   (yes, I'm everywhere)
<LaserJock> hi mdke
<mdke> Burgwork: hello?
<jjesse> morning
<tristanbob_> how can I download the 7.04 userguide as a PDF?
<LaserJock> well, the short story is you can't
<LaserJock> we don't have a userguide anymore
<LaserJock> and we aren't producing PDFs either
<LaserJock> at this point
<tristanbob_> LaserJock: I see - I was going to teach a short course on Ubuntu and I was going to follow that outline
<tristanbob_> but I wanted an offline copy to handout to students
<tristanbob_> Is there an easy way to bundle the docs?
<tristanbob_> I guess I can just have them load the ubuntu live cd and use the System > Help and Support button
<LaserJock> tristanbob_: well, help.ubuntu.com has the documentation, just not as a pdf
<tristanbob_> I see - I will give them both options - online or in the live-cd
<tristanbob_> LaserJock: I have to say that the navigation within the userguide is a bit unfriendly
<LaserJock> tristanbob_: which userguide?
<tristanbob_> what do you call the 7.04 docs?
<tristanbob_> I am browsing the help on 7.04
<LaserJock> ok
<tristanbob_> from within ubuntu
<LaserJock> it's the 7.04 help :-)
<tristanbob_> :) gotcha
<LaserJock> we used to produce an doc called a Userguide
<tristanbob_> I wish the browsing was more consistent in the "7.04 help"
<LaserJock> but then we broke it up into topics to work better with the Gnome Help Center
<tristanbob_> I like the front page - I see those topics
<tristanbob_> but once I drill down into one of them, I get a whole new view
<tristanbob_> and different topics on the left
<tristanbob_> where are the original topics?
<tristanbob_> my second recommendation is to make the "Next" button larger and more obvious - currently it the name of the next page, which may not be obvious to new users
<jjesse> tristanbob_: would you mind mailing the mailing list?
<tristanbob_> the only visual cue is the teeny-tiny arrow
<tristanbob_> yes I can do that j1mc
<tristanbob_> jjesse:
* j1mc waves at tristanbob_  :)
<tristanbob_> j1mc: well that is one way to meet someone - by accident
<j1mc> hehe  :)
<j1mc> hi
<tristanbob_> jjesse: email sent - I am not subscribed to the list
* nixternal will moderate it through
<tristanbob_> thanks n1c0las i
<tristanbob_> darn it!  thanks nixternal
<nixternal> done :) no problem
<nixternal> hehe
<jjesse> saw the email
<Admiral_Chicago> jjesse, https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/mplayerplug-in/+bug/117302 . that was done correctly
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 117302 in mplayerplug-in "Mozilla-mplayer wont play videos on several pages where vlc plays them" [Undecided,Unconfirmed] 
<nixternal> that's because vlc >>>>>>>> mplayer
<nixternal> and let's not forget Konqui >>>>>>>>>> FF
<Admiral_Chicago> haha
#ubuntu-doc 2007-05-30
<nixternal> hiya jono
<jono> hey :)
<nixternal> how goes the traveling?
<jono> not been bad, off to Germany tomorrow :)
<nixternal> and Aaron told me in this latest interview with him, he said you were crying that Matt left..he said he hand to email you a tissue ;p
<nixternal> s/hand/had
<jono> nixternal: no such tears hehe
<nixternal> hehe
<nixternal> mdke: I was wondering if it would be at all possible for at least the Kubuntu docs to go back to a dual license or GFDL/GPL seeing KDE docs are that way and being CC-by-SA I can't pull information from them.
* nixternal will be afk for a few..lunch time
<Admiral_Chicago> oh nose...licenses.
<Admiral_Chicago> hey there jjesse
<jjesse> hiya Admiral_Chicago
<mdke> nixternal: do you actually need to pull information from them? Can't you just integrate the documents alongside the distro ones? That's what we do with the Gnome docs, which are also under another license. This jumping around with licenses is pretty worrying, tbh. It's difficult to accomodate every potential source
<nixternal> mdke: sure we can do that, however I don't know about Yast, but utilizing KHelpCenter, if I link to the KDE documentation and a user clicks the link, it takes them away from the Kubuntu documentation for one
<nixternal> if I can just take a snippet of the documentation from KDE and include it with Kubuntu documentation, then I don't have to do this, and the user doesn't lose their location within the Kubuntu documentation
<mdke> nixternal: to be honest, I don't think that the user is likely to make a distinction between locations. There should be one location, with all documents integrated so that you don't have this problem
<nixternal> how would you go about integrating them into one location?
<nixternal> that sounds promising actually
<jjesse> hiya nixternal
<nixternal> hiya jjesse
<jjesse> that does sound really cool
<mdke> nixternal: aren't any kde docs already slotted into the existing system?
<nixternal> they are in KHelpCenter yes, but they are not in Kubuntu docs due to the licensing now
<mdke> how do you define "kubuntu docs" if not "everything in khelpcenter"
<nixternal> I removed all of the stuff from KDE docs that were in the Desktop Guide when transferring over to the tbh layout
<nixternal> kubuntu docs is just a small portion of the documentation within Kubuntu/KDE
<nixternal> a very small portion actually
<mdke> yes, of course
<mdke> and all of that documentation is accessed through the same location, right?
<nixternal> correct
<mdke> or is it kept separate?
<nixternal> it is all accessible via the front page of KHelpCenter in a TOC
<mdke> ok. I'm finding it quite hard to understand what the problem is
<nixternal> well if I link to a KDE document just so the user can read a small snippet to understand further what I am trying to say, it takes them away from the Kubuntu doc they are/were reading
<nixternal> then when they are done reading a small snippet, then they have to relocate where they were previously
<mdke> but they are still within the help center. That sounds like pretty standard behaviour, tbh
<nixternal> annoying, yet not life threatening
<jjesse> is there a "back button" that would bring them back to what they were reading/
* jjesse doesn't spend much time in khelpcenter
<nixternal> not in KHelpCenter for 3.5.x
<mdke> take Ubuntu; at https://help.ubuntu.com/ you have the TOC. the third and fourth bullet points are primarily upstream docs. If the user clicks on one of them, then wants to see the TOC again, they have to go back, that's kinda normal
<nixternal> either do I, I would love to just use Konqueror for help
<nixternal> yes, but from a usability standpoint, they shouldn't be taken away from where they were originally..heck if a user could right click on a link and open it in a new tab would make me happy
<nixternal> would be nice if there were more KHTML parts in KHelpCenter..that would curb a lot of things
<mdke> sounds to me like you are simply missing a back and forward button
<jjesse> but they don't neccasrily know they are leaving things,
<mdke> opening links in the same window is standard practise for browsing
<jjesse> i agree w/ mdke
<nixternal> jjesse: correct
<nixternal> mdke: you just gave me an idea with the back/forward buttons...that means more hacking in khelpcenter..yay ;)
<mdke> :)
* nixternal wishes we would throw out KHelpCenter and start fresh
* nixternal likes yelp
<Admiral_Chicago> nixternal: did you see what we are doing over at xubuntu docs...
<Admiral_Chicago> were you able to launch that python thing
<Admiral_Chicago> err. what jim and i were thinking (not what we were doing)
<nixternal> I haven't messed with it yet
<nixternal> seems I have started a poop storm with khelpcenter and kde4 devs :)
<Super_Cat_Frog_> hi - does anybody know where i can get an 'all in one page' version of the ubuntu official docs for feisty?
<LaserJock> I don't think that exsits currently
<LaserJock> *exists
<mdke> we should ship
<mdke> a tarball with everything, for offline browsing on windows
<mdke> if we move everything to the wiki, we can look into providing something like that
<LaserJock> yeah
<LaserJock> if I had time I'd probably dedicate almost all of my doc team efforts into HTML and PDF forms
<LaserJock> I'm usually either not in Ubuntu or not in the version I need to read about
<LaserJock> I like the PDF/HTML versions
<jjesse> i do too
<LaserJock> not that the on-system documentation is less important
<LaserJock> it's just with the TBH it's not as easy to get good online/PDF docs built
<ryanakca> nixternal (or anybody else): since moin2docbook won't work, would you mind firing up gobby and "mentoring" me some day?
<nixternal> ryanakca: sure...I am getting ready for a KDE meeting and then school...so possibly tomorrow, or maybe this weekend
<ryanakca> nixternal: okies
<ryanakca> thanks
<nixternal> no prob
#ubuntu-doc 2007-05-31
<jjesse> did someone message me?
<jjesse> if so i lost it in the scroll
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-doc.log
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-doc.log
<nh_work> anyone have any suggestions for installing fop in ubuntu?
<nixternal> nh_work: are you planning on making pdfs?
<nixternal> I would recommend dblatex and pdflatex truthfully
<nh_work> nixternal: hrm... ok.  Any idea why fop no longer seems to be there?
<nixternal> fop isn't in our repos, but you can get a tarball of it
<nixternal> if you are using the old scripts in Ubuntu documentation, then fop is what you need
<nh_work> alright, I'll deal. ;)  Thanks
<ryanakca> nixternal: are you busy now, or shortly after the K-D meeting, or later on tonight?
<ryanakca> better way to phrase it: is there a time tonight when you wont be busy?
<nixternal> I am getting ready to shower, do the meeting, then head to school
<nixternal> I won't be back online until around 04:00 UTC
<nixternal> tomorrow may be best to work on the doc thing, as I will be around all day
<ryanakca> ok
<ryanakca> tomorrow I'm gone after 5 ish, so oh well. There's alwais the weekend
#ubuntu-doc 2007-06-01
<ubotu> New bug: #118248 in ubuntu-doc "Architecture selection page of the Installation Guide is not user-friendly" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/118248
<newz2000> hey, just got a request from someone asking if the 7.04 docs are downloadable as PDFs. I know this has been done for some versions, anyone know if they exist somewhere for 7.04?
<nixternal> not yet
<newz2000> ok, thanks rich
<nixternal> no problem...we don't know if that yet will turn true though...that is up to mdke_ on if he decides to pdf them
<nixternal> I am working on a dblatex kde version now so Kubuntu docs can be turned into a PDF
#ubuntu-doc 2007-06-02
<ubotu> New bug: #118409 in ubuntu-doc "No documentation for .run self-extracting packages" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/118409
<j1mc> is there a way to upload an image so that it can be displayed on a wiki page?
<Burgundavia> j1mc: yes, via the attachments
<Burgundavia> see the drop down list
<j1mc> or do you just have to upload it somewhere other than wiki.ubuntu.com and just link to it?
<j1mc> Burgundavia: thank you.  i'll check it out, and will let you know if i have any problems.
<Burgundavia> you can do either, but on the wiki is better
<j1mc> thanks... seems easy enough.  :)
<j1mc> Burgundavia: I've uploaded the attachment, but can only display it as an attachment, not as the actual image.
<j1mc> is it possible to display it in the wiki page itself?
<Burgundavia> what have you uploaded?
<j1mc> i've searched the syntax reference: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SyntaxReference
<Burgundavia> which page?
<j1mc> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Specifications/Gutsy/DocumentationBrowser
<j1mc> attachment:welcome_centre.png
<Burgundavia> unlike mediaiwiki, you don't need to link to it
<Burgundavia> just drop the name in, like I just did
<Burgundavia> check out the page now
<Burgundavia> j1mc: on a better note: why not use yelp?
<j1mc> thanks for your help with the wiki page.
<Burgundavia> no worries
<j1mc> as for yelp, we're trying to avoid gnome deps
<j1mc> it's in the rationale.
<Burgundavia> why not add a configure option to build a yelp-gtk?
<Burgundavia> ala evince gtk
<j1mc> we've discussed that a bit with the Xubuntu devs.  we're actually seeking more feedback from the core xubuntu devs before we bring it to the ubuntu-docs team.
<Burgundavia> ahh
<j1mc> so you're getting a sneak peek.
<Burgundavia> ultimately, I think xfce should figure out how to get as much of their stuff into GNOME and GTK as possible
<j1mc> stuff into gnome?  i'm not sure what you mean...  make xfce apps available as gnome apps?
<j1mc> we clearly share a lot, though.
<Burgundavia> yep
<j1mc> what kind of work do you do for ubuntu-docs?
<j1mc> Burgundavia: yelp also had some kind of strange deps, like libbeagle0
<Burgundavia> those are only compile time
<Burgundavia> I think
<j1mc> hmmm... ok.
<Burgundavia> nautilus has the same thing, but it is so if you install beagle, you get the searching
<j1mc> i am not really a developer, but i will pass along your comments to the developer group.
<Burgundavia> no worries
<j1mc> i will make sure that we have a solid answer to these types of questions, but i do remember them coming up in one of our recent dev meetings.
<j1mc> thanks for your help today.  :)
<Simon80> someone want to delete this page? https://help.ubuntu.com/community/BlackBerry?action=info
<Burgundavia> why delete it?
<Burgundavia> why not merely mention there is no way to get data off it to an Ubuntu install
<Simon80> there are other pages on the wiki that mention barry, which is supposed to be able to sync it
<Simon80> so rather than expanding that page, deleting it makes more sense
<Burgundavia> then redirect that page
<Simon80> err, fine
<Simon80> it's not even spelled right though, it's just noise
<Burgundavia> right
<Simon80> if I'm redirecting it, how do I do that? in the markup?
#ubuntu-doc 2007-06-03
<ubotu> New bug: #118566 in ubuntu-doc "Minor typos in trademark policy" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/118566
#ubuntu-doc 2008-05-26
<mdke> popey: thanks, still need to go through my bugmail after a week away. Will try and prioritise that :)
<popey> hmm?
<mdke> 16:53 #ubuntu-doc: < popey> mdke: bug 229320 apparently you can edit immutable pages on the wiki?
<mdke> 18 May... :)
<popey> ahh :)
<popey> mdke: nice week off though?
<mdke> popey: yes, bit of a much-needed detox from work and Ubuntu
<popey> i can imagine
<ScottK> I've run across a page in h.u.c/community that hasn't been touched in 3 1/2 years and is clearly obsolete.  Could someone help me out with getting it deleted.
<ScottK> The page in question is h.u.c/community/ClamAVUpdates - Instead of needing an external repository, clamav is kept up to date in the *-backports repos.
<ScottK> sommer: Do you have access to delete wiki pages on h.u.c/community?
<sommer> ScottK: I don't think so, but I can double check
<ScottK> sommer: The page in question is help.ubuntu.com/community/ClamAVUpdates
<ScottK> Have a look.  It's clearly obsolete.
<sommer> ScottK: ah, just tried to delete it and got the notallowed message
 * ScottK too.
<ScottK> Since you tend to hang out here, would please take on getting it deleted?
<sommer> sure, but you might get a faster result by sending a message to the doc list
<ScottK> Except I'm not subscribed, so it would get moderated.
 * ScottK looks at sommer again.
<sommer> heh, I'll mention it
 * sommer needs to send a message to the doc list anyway
<ScottK> Thanks.
<sommer> np :)
<mdke> sommer: since -backports is not included automatically, I think probably a page is necessary anyway, although obviously not in the current form. what do you think?
<sommer> mdke: hrrmm... there are plans to try and get clamav into main for intrepid
<sommer> but since that may be a while, it should probably just be updated
<sommer> I'll try and get to that this week
<mdke> sommer: nice, thanks
#ubuntu-doc 2008-05-27
<Flare183> Sorry about not helping lately you guys
<Flare183> I have had some family/school issues and I needed to sort them out
<Flare183> So is there anything that I can help out on now?
#ubuntu-doc 2008-05-28
<kirkland> is there anyone around here that can help with a macro for the wiki?
<Zelut> I need a page renamed/redirected on the help.ubuntu.com/community wiki.  Can anyone point me toward getting that done?
<seisen> what is the link?
<Zelut> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/FoldingAtHome/folding.sh
<Zelut> the project name has changed from 'folding.sh' to 'origami' is all.
<seisen> well all you have to do is create a new page copy and paste everything from folding.sh to it and make sure it works then to redirect the page put this in the old page: #REFRESH 0 https://help.ubuntu.com/community/NewPage
<seisen> then go the old page to make sure that it is redirecting right
<seisen> I hope that  make sense
<seisen> or I can do it for you
<Zelut> I got it. thanks
<seisen> no problem
<Zelut> I populated the new page and redirected the old but the redirect hits a "no such page" address..
<Zelut> but when I click "create new page" the migrated content is already there.  Is this just a caching issue?
<seisen> it works fine for me
<seisen> its redirecting to the origami page now
<Zelut> well ok then.
<Zelut> must be caching on my end
<seisen> I cleared everything out of firefox then reloaded the page
<Zelut> ok. problem solved. thanks.
<cody-somerville> mdke, well, a solution needs to be arrived at and I don't want it to me having to leave the core-doc-team
<cody-somerville> I can't miss important bug mail especially during freezes
<mdke> cody-somerville: are you sure you can't filter on the X-Launchpad-Bug header using gmail?
<cody-somerville> mdke, I've tried :(
<mdke> how about filtering on the footer which says "You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu
<mdke> Documentation Project Team, which is subscribed to Ubuntu Documentation."
<mdke> it's ugly, but it might allow you to filter the more important bugmail
<cody-somerville> I could do that, I suppose.
<cody-somerville> and get Jim to notify me of anything I really need to be aware f
<cody-somerville> *of
<mdke> how do you tell what bug mail is important or not? you just want a smaller number of mails to read?
<mdke> the other option would be to create a new user to receive particularly important bug mail and put that in a different folder. Dunno if that will work
<cody-somerville> Interesting idea.
<cody-somerville> Basically, I want all the bug mail I see in my inbox to be action items
<cody-somerville> ie. if it is a bug and it makes it to my inbox, I have to read it and act on it
<mdke> that strikes me as being pretty difficult. More likely, you can subscribe a particular label to bugs on packages that you feel are important
<mdke> then just make sure you read emails with that label
<mdke> for example with my Ubuntu email, I don't get anything in my inbox except what is sent directly to me only, all the other mail is filtered, and then I read my important stuff first (CC or whatever)
<cody-somerville> ok
<mdke> you could have an xubuntu-serious-bugs label maybe
#ubuntu-doc 2008-05-29
<weldon> tor user documentation needs to be updated for 8.04
<weldon> does not work with firefox beta3
<mdke> weldon: could you file a bug to report the problem?
#ubuntu-doc 2008-05-30
<iandotcom> hey everyone
<cody-somerville> hi
<iandotcom> i asked this question on the forums, whats the difference between help.ubuntu.com/community and wiki.ubuntu.com?
<iandotcom> i'm not sure which one i should be adding stuff to
<Flannel> iandotcom: help is for "support" sorts of things, wiki is for organizational stuff
<Flannel> most (if not all) of the wiki.u.c support-ish/helpish pages have been moved (and redirect) to their new versions on h.u.c
<iandotcom> @Flannel: sweet, cheers :)
<iandotcom> one more thing, my name on my wiki account is "Ian263", is there any way to change that so it appears as a proper wikiname like "IanHutchinson"
<Flannel> You may be able to change your wiki account, I'm not really sure.  It'd have to be done through people, not through the wiki.
<iandotcom> any pointers on who i would go to?
<bimberi> iandotcom: Change your WikiName at your Launchpad page - click on Update Wiki Names
<iandotcom> cheers ï»¿bimberi
<cody-somerville> hi nixternal
<nixternal> wasabi homeskillet
<cody-somerville> nixternal, so I'm not the only one not overly pleased? lol
<nixternal> not by the least bit
<nixternal> and I think I forgot to CC everyone and their mother in that response
<cody-somerville> ah, yes.
<cody-somerville> You only sent it to our council list
<nixternal> there, now everyone will get a copy :)
<ikonia> Pici: #ubuntu-doc - not #ubuntu-docs
<Pici> ikonia: I did say -doc
<fde> Pici: Guess I typed it wrong...
<Pici> fde: I figured ;)
<ikonia> ooh
<ikonia> Pici: so you did
<fde> Ok... https://help.ubuntu.com/community/PinningHowto this page describes how to hold a package, not pin one... it's different... pinning is described here: http://wiki.debian.org/AptPinning
<fde> I can change the latter to better fit Ubuntu, but how would I go about renaming for former so that info isn't lost entirely?
<fde> Any suggestions or pointers on how to go about doing that?
<fde> (for those that don't know, pinning is the process that allows you to select from one version while maintaining a previous... holding keeps the current version always, so you can see they are vastly different)
<fde> It is super seeded by backports in almost all cases these days, but it is still misleading to call holding a package pinning it.
<ompaul> you can pin to an older version if that is your want
<ompaul> so pinning is still an option
<fde> ompaul: Sure, but it's not the same as holding... the Ubuntu's wiki calls the holding howto "PinningHowto"
<fde> ompaul: Please take a look at the links I provided....
<ompaul> fde, point
<ompaul> I had not looked
<fde> ompaul: So I would I rename PinningHowto to AptHoldHowto or something similar, and replace PinningHowto with the correct info?
<fde> so how*
<ompaul> the likes of mdke would be an authority on the correct process for this
<ompaul> however he is marked away at this time
<fde> ompaul: So try back later?
<fde> ompaul: Or is it likely he'll see this and respond?  :P
<ompaul> hang around as long as you can is my suggestion
<fde> Will do.
 * MatthewV is Away, Reason: ( bed time for me Zzzzz.. ) | Since: ( Friday, May 30, 2008. 20:22:14 ) Xlack v2.1
<fde> mdke: ping
<mdke> fde: (In case I'm not around at the moment, please provide a bit of information about what you want and I will respond when I get back)
<fde> mdke: Related to renaming a wiki page that is incorrect, please /msg me when you're around, thank you.
#ubuntu-doc 2008-05-31
<chmac> https://help.ubuntu.com/8.04/installation-guide/i386/mail-setup.html
<chmac> This article says mutt and exim4 will be installed by default
<chmac> It might mean if you use the alternate i386 cd, but to the casual browser, that's not obvious, and either mutt nor exim4 are installed on a desktop system
<Flannel> It's just outdated information.  Alt CD installs the same system as Desktop CD
<chmac> Flannel: Ok, can I update it somewhere? It's not wiki-editable right?
<chmac> It's listed as the docs for 8.04 which lead to my confusion
<chmac> :)
<Flannel> chmac: I think you have to file a bug on LP
<chmac> Flannel: Ok, will do that, thanks
<mdke> fde: if it's about Pinning as per your exchanges above, I have to say I'm not very knowledgeable about the difference, the best approach is to fix the page that is wrong and create a new page if necessary for the separate topic. feel free to discuss on our mailing list
<fde> mdke: Sounds good, I sort of expected that to be the case... I won't be able to today though, going to be gone most of it... I will make a note though
#ubuntu-doc 2008-06-01
<fde> Hello, can someone please review: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HoldingHowto#preview and https://help.ubuntu.com/community/PinningHowto#preview and let me know whether they are ok?
<fde> The latter however is not my work... I didn't edit it other than the Commentary section at the bottom... I just wrote the PinningHowto using the Debian wiki docs though... any modification necessary, or is that ok?
<fde> Also, should the bottom be on another page, and linked to? It's really unrelated, but certainly would have better results than pinning would...
<fde> I just saw that PinningHowto used to be utterly wrong, so corrected that info... but it'll really do bad things to Ubuntu due to what I describe at the bottom of that page.
<seisen> for one they need to be here https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ instead of wiki.ubuntu.com
<seisen> disregard I'm retarded
<fde> As far as I'm aware, you can't create pages on help.u.c ... you have to create it elsewhere, then get it approved?
<fde> If that's wrong, it certainly should be moved.
<Flannel> the community section is just like w.u.c, you can create/edit/etc freely
<Flannel> its just the non-community section
<Flannel> And, also, try to avoid using "HowTo" in the pagename
<Flannel> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiGuide/PageCreation has creation guidelines
<Flannel> (yes, Pinning HowTo already has Howto in it)
<fde> Flannel: Ahh... well I was just following what the previous person had done... apologies...
<fde> Flannel: I did find the Rename feature though... I can use that, can you think of things that are more accurate?
<fde> things = titles
<Flannel> fde: When you move it to help.ubuntu.com you can rename it
<Flannel> Why does it need to be renamed?  I guess I'm confused about how the PinningHowto isn't about Pinning
<fde> Flannel: The old PinningHowto described holding a package... which is an entirely different feature of apt.
<Flannel> fde: Ah.  I see.  And, the backport comments at the end, if those are yours, should be put on the backports page (and just link to it
<fde> Flannel: I don't see an option for moving the page... only rename and delete.
<Flannel> fde: No, you don't move the page, you create a new one (h.u.c), and then delete the old one (w.u.c)
<fde> Flannel: That's about creating a hackish backport yourself... still appropriate?
<Flannel> !prevu
<Flannel> Yeah, personal backports... gah. no bot
<fde> The bots dead... I'll /msg ubot3
<Flannel> 18:39 <Flannel> prevu
<Flannel> 18:39 <ubot3> prevu is an automated, personal backporting utility. Check out https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Prevu for more details
<Flannel> 18:39 <Flannel> backport
<Flannel> 18:39 <ubot3> If new updated Ubuntu packages are built for an application, then they may go into Ubuntu Backports. See https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuBackports - See also !packaging
<Flannel> Prevu might be a better page to link to.  It does all the building/depends/etc by itself
<fde> Flannel: Ok... then I can remove that entire section, and just say "it is strongly suggested you avoid this, and use prevu"
<Flannel> fde: shrug, its basically what prevu does.  Jst transparent to the user.  I'd just mention prevu.  But, I'm sort of wondering how pinning fits in with backports.  They're opposite things.
<Flannel> Oh
<Flannel> Because the pinning page has gone wonky and is now about intrepid.  I see.
<Flannel> pinning *used* to be about downgrading a version in case the new one had issues. (or for whatever reason), someone has changed that to be crazy.
<Flannel> Hmm, ah.  You've changed it.  I see.
<fde> Flannel: Well... it just plain described an unrelated topic... this is what Pinning used to be: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/PackageHolding#preview which is NOT pinning at all.
<Flannel> You should add some sort of disambiguation at the top.  Since, many things still point to pinning, when they apparently should point to holding.
<fde> PinningHowto is locked... I can't rename or lock it.
<Flannel> Don't worry about the rename.
<Flannel> Just make sure you put a paragraph at the top, "If you're looking for fix packages at an earlier version to get around bugs, you want Holding.. yadda yadda"
<fde> How do I make a link to another page? [URL linkname] right?
<Flannel> Just PageName since it'll be on the wiki
<fde> Cool.
<Flannel> Ah!  And HoldingHowto wil be fine, since you'll want a WikiName
<fde> Flannel: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/PinningHowto#preview should be fine, right? btw, even then, it wasn't pinning that was being performed, they were holding the package.
<fde> Flannel: see man apt_preferences on the topic... also man dpkg ... and /hold
<Flannel> fde: How is pinning different than holding though?  since apt-preferences mentions pinning to an arbitrary version
<fde> (the / character performs a search on the subsequent string in anything that uses less)
<fde> Flannel: holding is to package version... pinning is to dist
<Flannel>  Pin: version 5.8*
<Flannel>           Pin-Priority: 1001
<Flannel> That's a version
<fde> Flannel: Ok, so there are multiple ways to hold... and that should possibly be added to PackageHolding ... but dpkg hold doesn't use pinning. The old page didn't describe anything related to pinning at all.
<Flannel> You're right.  I think it did in the past, since that page is where I originally learned about it.
<Flannel> But yes, this currently does describe holding.
<Flannel> since its using dpkg hold stuffs
<fde> Flannel: Uhh, it's not letting me go back to PackageHolding?
<Flannel> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/PinningHowto?action=recall&rev=14
<fde> Was it removed or something? I still have the code if I need to re-edit the page?
<Flannel> see what it used to be
<Flannel> Or, at one point.
<Flannel> Looks like pinning used to be about pinning, and people have butchered it.  It wouldn't be a bad thing to have a single consolidated page abut pinning and holding, since they can both be used to accomplish the same thing
<Flannel> so, someone looking to keep a package version, would read one page about both methods
<fde> Flannel: Hmm... perhaps, like AdvancedPackageHandling ... and move lots of things there for people to read about...
<fde> Flannel: Where did PackageHolding go though? it won't let me see  :(
<Flannel> Just focus on this page for now, then we can rename later
<Flannel> Where?  You mean HoldingHowto?
<Flannel> You deleted it.  But, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HoldingHowto?action=info
<fde> Flannel: I deleted that and put it in h.u.c/community/PackageHolding ... now it says it doesn't exist
<Flannel> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/PackageHolding
<Flannel> works for me
<Flannel> but, delete that page, add/edit/etc PinningHowto, then worry about moving it to a more proper name later.
<Flannel> Since, that'll require a number of external things to be changed
<fde> Weird... are you an admin or anything?
<Flannel> No, I went to the first one, and it said "That doesn't exist, but this one looks similar" and clicked it
<fde> Flannel: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/PinningHowto#preview ?
<Flannel> You know until you submit it, no one else can see them, right?
<Flannel> Ah, but you have submitted
<fde> Flannel: heh  :)
<fde> Flannel: Hopefully it's complete now, pending rename... cuz I have to get going really soon... got a soccer game
<Flannel> Um, well, personally, I'd like to see pinning go back to talking about *older* packages, since that's how we use the factoid.  But, I think it looks good, except your headings are different magnitudes
<fde> Flannel: I just noticed that... changing so Pinning looks like Holding  :)
<Flannel> Looks good for now though.
<fde> Flannel: I take it any changes will now be mailed to me, or must I manually subscribe to maintain this page?
<Flannel> fde: you must subscribe.  Just because you edit, doesn't auto-subscribe you
<Flannel> Just hit "subscribe" at the top of the page
<fde> Done... thank you for your guidance :)
<fde> Ugh... now PackageHolding is back... and not letting me delete it... heh
<fde> Requested removal via comment of change... hopefully someone will see it.
#ubuntu-doc 2009-05-25
<Rocket2DMn> I see I've been subscribed to the Hardware Database Workshop blueprint
#ubuntu-doc 2009-05-26
<LjL> hi. https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Java used to be a pretty long page, admittedly a bit confusing, which however did list in detail several alternatives that were available for running Java code, describing their freeness, etc. now it's little more than a stub, with "please don't edit, being merged with the server guide". is the old content intended to be placed anywhere at all? what's the rationale behind integrating JRE information (which is something
<LjL> people use daily on desktops) into the *server* guide?
<Justin10ec> Hello.. I want to get involved with the Documentation Team. I have a few questions, though.
<Justin10ec> As part of the documentation team, what exactly would I help with? Would it consist of correcting grammar/spelling errors, rewording to make better sense, etc?
<Atamira> yes it would
<Atamira> theres a wiki page to help you start
<Atamira> let me see if i can find it for you
<Justin10ec> Atamira, Do I just jump in?
<Atamira> yep..you can..oh and join the mailing list
<Justin10ec> Atamira, I've found the wiki page.
<Justin10ec> Atamira, I just did :)
<Atamira> oh good..welcome to the team
<Atamira> if you ahve any queries, you might be lucky to get someone in here..
<Atamira> so send them to the mailing list
<Justin10ec> Atamira, Alright. Thanks for your help. May I ask, how long have you helped with the documentation?
<Atamira> since they started
<Atamira> tho i had to stop when i moved countries, and i just didnt get back into it
<Atamira> i only moderate the mailing list now
<Justin10ec> Atamira, That's awesome.
<Justin10ec> Atamira, I've wanted to help with Ubuntu for a long time now :b
<Atamira> well you're here now
<Atamira> thats all thta matters
<Justin10ec> I'm reading the Grammar page now. I think I'm going to make my mother read it. She's pretty bad with Grammar.
<Atamira> heh
<Atamira> its all good
<Atamira> i gotta goto work
<Atamira> have a good day
#ubuntu-doc 2009-05-27
<Justin10ec> Atamira: I spoke to you earlier I believe. Are you still here?
#ubuntu-doc 2009-05-28
<gpled> hello
#ubuntu-doc 2009-05-29
<justMoi> #japan
<zab_> bonjour
<zab_> quelqu'un peut-il m'aider ?
<zab_> apparemment tout le monde est occupÃ©
<zab_> bon aprÃ¨s midi, Ã  bientÃ´t peut Ãªtre
<Shane_Fagan> zab_: Parlez en langlais si vous plait
<Shane_Fagan> Oh he quit
<linux_stu> I believe I found two errors in the Ubuntu Server Guide
<linux_stu> At https://help.ubuntu.com/8.04/serverguide/C/package-management-introduction.html , the second to last sentence reads "In order for Festival to function, it and all of it's dependencies must be installed."  In this case, the words "its" should be used instead of "it's".
<Shane_Fagan> linux_stu: File a bug for it on launchpad against ubuntu-doc and put on it as much info as possible please
<linux_stu> ah launchpad finally loaded
<Shane_Fagan> linux_stu: Actually "it's" is correct
<linux_stu> "it's" = "it is"
<linux_stu> "its" = possessive pronoun
<Shane_Fagan> Yes and in the context of that sentence it refers to the program's dependencies.
<cody-somerville> linux_stu is correct
<Shane_Fagan> Yep
<cody-somerville> "it's" should be "its"
<Shane_Fagan> Just after reading the section in question.
<Shane_Fagan> linux_stu: Whats the second error?
<Shane_Fagan> ill check if the first bug is fixed in the karmic branch
<linux_stu> At https://help.ubuntu.com/8.04/serverguide/C/installing-from-cd.html , the output for the command "tasksel --task-packages dns-server" that is listed on the page differs from the output I observe on my system when I run the command.
<linux_stu> It lists the output as being "bind9-doc \ bind9", whereas on my system, the output is "bind9-doc \ bind9utils \ bind9"
<cody-somerville> linux_stu, Are you running Ubuntu 8.04?
<linux_stu> aww failure
<linux_stu> you're right.
<linux_stu> I was mistakenly thinking the documentation was for 9.04.
<Shane_Fagan> The first error has already been corrected in the jaunty page
<Shane_Fagan> https://help.ubuntu.com/9.04/serverguide/C/installing-from-cd.html
<Shane_Fagan> The second error is on the jaunty page
<Shane_Fagan> cody-somerville: could you push a fix for the second error please?
<Shane_Fagan> cody-somerville: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/183835/
<cody-somerville> I'm heading out for dinner
<Shane_Fagan> Hmmm anyone else with commit privileges around ?
<Shane_Fagan> Ah ill just file a bug report and put the patch tag on it
<bencrisford> When submitting documentation patches, what format would one use for the patch?
<bencrisford> I assume it isnt debdiff
<bencrisford> ?
<bencrisford> is it?
<Shane_Fagan> bzr diff please
<bencrisford> ah ok, ty :)
<bencrisford> I havent got a patch to submit yet, but I was just curious
<Shane_Fagan> Cd into the branch so "cd ubuntu-karmic" then "bzr diff" then copy the the output as a .diff file
<bencrisford> ah ok
<bencrisford> :)
<Shane_Fagan> If you have any trouble just ask
<bencrisford> ok thanks Shane_Fagan :)
#ubuntu-doc 2009-05-30
<bencrisford> Im working on a bug in edubuntu-docs
<bencrisford> is it still apt-get source edubuntu-docs, or is it different for documentation?
<mdke> bencrisford: that works, but the more reliable way is to get the bzr branch
<bencrisford> ok, and after its fixed do i upload it to the bug?
<bencrisford> or is it different for docs?
<bencrisford> mdke: ^
<bencrisford> :)
<mdke> bencrisford: yes, uploading a patch to the bug is th best way
<bencrisford> as a diff.gz?
<mdke> no need to archive it
<bencrisford> just diff? :)
<mdke> unless it's huge
<bencrisford> wont be
<bencrisford> im replacing one word with another
<mdke> right
<bencrisford> the easiest bug there is :)
<bencrisford> which is why im doing it, to teach myself packaging :)
<mdke> it's a good way to practice making patches
<bencrisford> could i fix it like this mdke:
<bencrisford> sed -i 's/Illustrator/InDesign/g' path/to/appropriate/doc?
<mdke> bencrisford: probably best to edit the file manually so that you can see the context for any words that you are changing
<bencrisford> ok...  ill give it a go ;), thanks mdke :)
<bencrisford> mdke: Whats the bzr branch called?
<bencrisford> for edubuntu-docs
<mdke> bencrisford: see if you can get the info from https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/Repository
<bencrisford> ok, i was looking for that but didnt fint it :)
<bencrisford> ty
<bencrisford> mdke: I'm having trouble :'(, could I not just do apt-get source?
<mdke> bencrisford: no, that's not a good idea for any packages which use bzr for their sources
<bencrisford> oh
<mdke> bencrisford: also, if you are looking to learn how to contribute to documentation, getting our documents is basically the first thing you need to know how to do :)
<bencrisford> i know for ubuntu
<bencrisford> i did it for that with no problems
<bencrisford> this is the error i got:
<bencrisford> ben@ben-laptop:~/edubuntu_bzr$ bzr branch lp:~ubuntu-core-doc/ubuntu-doc/edubuntu-jaunty
<bencrisford> Permission denied (publickey).
<bencrisford> bzr: ERROR: Connection closed: please check connectivity and permissions
<mdke> it's the same process for edubuntu
<mdke> ok, you need to tell bzr your Launchpad username I think
<mdke> do "bzr launchpad-login *your_username_here*"
<bencrisford> ok
<mdke> without the asterisks
<bencrisford> same error :/
<bencrisford> do i need my lp password?
<mdke> no, it authenticates using your ssh key
<mdke> I guess you don't have your ssh key
<bencrisford> i do
<bencrisford> its on my lp profile
<mdke> and is it on the computer you are using?
<bencrisford> yeah
<bencrisford> well, i got it from this computer
<bencrisford> i dont know if its "on" it
<bencrisford> should it be in .bashrc?
<mdke> no, in ~/.ssh
<mdke> (which is a directory)
<bencrisford> Host *launchpad.net
<bencrisford> User USERNAME
<bencrisford> thats the contents of my config file
<bencrisford> should i change it at all :/?
<mdke> I don't know what file you are talking about
<bencrisford> ~/.ssh/config
<bencrisford> mdke: ^
<mdke> I don't have such a file
<mdke> but what happens if you do "cat ~/.ssh/id_dsa.pub"
<bencrisford> cat: /home/ben/.ssh/id_dsa.pub: No such file or directory
<bencrisford> i think i gave my id_dsa a different name
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> ls ~/.ssh
<bencrisford> ben@ben-laptop:~$ ls ~/.ssh
<bencrisford> config  known_hosts
<mdke> ok, your ssh key isn't there
<mdke> so it can't authenticate with Launchpad
<bencrisford> thats weird :/
<bencrisford> maybe its somewhere else
<mdke> you can get the branch over http instead of ssh as a workaround, but that's worth sorting out because ssh keys are very useful
<mdke> I have to go now, back later
<bencrisford> ok, bye
<bencrisford1> I changed the wording of a paragraph in School Advocacy (edubuntu-docs) to fix a bug and now the motu recommend I upload it to my PPA and make a merge proposal
<bencrisford1> but I don't know which files to upload
<bencrisford1> just the .diff?  the .dsc?  .tar.gz?
<bencrisford1> =S
<bencrisford1> or shall I just upload it as a patch to the bug?
<bencrisford1> (the diff ^)
<bencrisford1> mdke: Back yet?
<bencrisford1> :(
<LaserJock> anybody from ~ubuntu-core-doc over here?
<Shane_Fagan> We all write the core doc. You must mean a person with commit privileges ?
<Shane_Fagan> LaserJock: what do you need help with?
<LaserJock> yeah, I need somebody with bzr commit access
<LaserJock> I need the edubuntu bzr branch branched for Karmic
<mdke> LaserJock: will do
<LaserJock> mdke: unfortunately, with the new job I got, etc. I'm not going to be much involved with Edubuntu
<LaserJock> mdke: sbalneav is the main doc guy with access right now for Edubuntu
<mdke> LaserJock: congrats
<LaserJock> but with the revitalization effort that's going on there seems to be a number of people interested in doc work
<mdke> excellent
<mdke> edubuntu-karmic pushed up
<LaserJock> thanks
<mdke> we'll be shortly moving it to an edubuntu-docs project, I don't know if you've followed that discussion
<mdke> but obviously we'll update the wiki documentation for the project when that happens
<LaserJock> ohh, is that moving forward?
<mdke> yeah, just waiting on LP admins at the moment
<mdke> what's the new job?
<LaserJock> it's postdoc in the Space Vehicles Directorate at the Air Force Research Laboratory in Boston
<LaserJock> chemistry stuff dealing with rocket/shuttle/satellite engines
<mdke> holy cow
<mdke> double congrats
<LaserJock> I don't know if it really counts as rocket science
<LaserJock> but it's a lot closer than I thought I'd ever get ;-)
<mdke> sure it does :)
<mdke> pleased to be moving?
<Rocket2DMn> rocket science \o/
<LaserJock> mdke: yes and no
<LaserJock> mdke: it's gonna cost a lot to move and be a big hassle
<LaserJock> mdke: but Boston sounds awesome
<Rocket2DMn> LaserJock, im in the middle of moving right now, i hear ya
<mdke> yeah, I guess it's a long way to take all your stuff
<LaserJock> 3k miles
<LaserJock> pretty much literally across the US
<Rocket2DMn> I did the same thing last summer LaserJock , went from los angeles to near philadelphia
<LaserJock> phew
<Rocket2DMn> yeah, now im moving again, shorter distance tho, a few hours away to NJ
<LaserJock> my biggest problems is I own a house here, have pets and tons of junk, and 2 cars
<Rocket2DMn> yeah, that makes life a bit more difficult
<mdke> are you going to sell it?
<LaserJock> not sure
<mdke> guess it's not a great time
<LaserJock> pretty much the worst
<Rocket2DMn> where exactly are you now LaserJock ?
 * mdke nods
<LaserJock> if we can rent it out for a year or something maybe we could sell then
<LaserJock> Rocket2DMn: Reno
<Rocket2DMn> cool
<LaserJock> like the 2nd or 3rd works housing market
<LaserJock> *worst
<LaserJock> Nevada is teh worst!
<LaserJock> my house lost almost 1/2 of it's value over the last year
<Rocket2DMn> :(
<mdke> woah
<LaserJock> luckily I bought it before then
<mdke> renting is probably worth it, as long as the numbers all work
<mdke> I'm sure things will improve gradually
<LaserJock> yeah
<LaserJock> I just don't want it to get trashed in the mean time
<LaserJock> I'd have to hire a manager
<LaserJock> anyway
<LaserJock> but yeah, having a job is nice :-)
<LaserJock> I didn't think I'd find one
<Rocket2DMn> +1
<LaserJock> but I have 2 unofficial offers right now
<mdke> very cool
<LaserJock> after the 1st of the year the chemistry jobs totally dried up
<LaserJock> but luckily my area of chemistry is a bit less competitive I think
<LaserJock> and the Air Force job required US citizenship which helps me out a lot
<mdke> plus, you're good :)
<LaserJock> heh
<LaserJock> the bad part of the Air Force job is that they require using Windows on all computers
<LaserJock> it's terrible in science that we're reduced to using such inferior software
<Rocket2DMn> well, unfortunately it is the standard rather than the exception
<mdke> we use Windows on all computers too
<LaserJock> doing science work in Windows is pretty painful
<LaserJock> I'm so spoiled having any programming and data analysis tools right at my fingertips
<mdke> well, you'll have to convert them then
<bencrisford> mdke: ping
<mdke> bencrisford: (In case I'm not around at the moment, please provide a bit of information about what you want and I will respond when I get back)
<bencrisford> mdke: I updated my .diff on Bug #210771 :)
<ubot4> Launchpad bug 210771 in edubuntu-docs "School advocacy wrongly speaks about Scribus being Illustrator-like" [Wishlist,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/210771
<bencrisford> its more conventional now I think :), and a little better with more included
<mdke> bencrisford: good stuff, thanks
<bencrisford> :)
<bencrisford> I'm doing the documentation for spux project, I coded it in docbook, what would the contents of the script to run it be?
<bencrisford> as simple as?:
<bencrisford> yelp /path/to/docs
<bencrisford> ?
#ubuntu-doc 2009-05-31
<SiDi> Hello
<SiDi> Anyone fluent with our wiki who minds helping me ?
<nhandler> What do you need help with?
<SiDi> Is it possible, when using Navigation childs, to explicitely filter one child out ?
<SiDi> <<Navigation(children,1)>> *
<Rocket2DMn> SiDi, I don't believe so
<SiDi> Alright, thanks
<Rocket2DMn> the funcitons aren't that complex
<SiDi> Is there a wiki admin here who could remove this page, then, please : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Specifications/ReleaseSpecificSpecTemplate ?
<SiDi> I moved it to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Specifications/Template/ReleaseSpecificSpecTemplate
<Rocket2DMn> SiDi, you should be able to delete the page yourself
<Rocket2DMn> go ahead and try
<SiDi> oh, didnt notice the "Other actions" thing :P
<Rocket2DMn> i think its only the community docs that need wiki admins
<SiDi> Cheers
<Rocket2DMn> the team wiki is open
<SiDi> Its deleted :) Thanks
<Rocket2DMn> np
#ubuntu-doc 2010-06-02
<Pici> Is it a known issue that icons/smilies on help.ubuntu.com are broken?
<Pici> help.ubuntu.com/community rather
#ubuntu-doc 2010-06-03
<arand> I've written a little something about setting up a serial console on a VM https://help.ubuntu.com/community/DraftKVMSerialConsole  Any opinions on where it would fit in the wiki?
<arand> I've written a little something about setting up a serial console on a VM https://help.ubuntu.com/community/DraftKVMSerialConsole  Any opinions on where it would fit in the wiki?
#ubuntu-doc 2011-05-31
<j1mc> mdke: do you have access to the mailing list? one of my posts (maybe two of them?) are held in the queue for being slightly too many bytes.
#ubuntu-doc 2011-06-04
<j1mc> greets, all
<j1mc> is anyone around?
<j1mc> was curious to know of any reactions to my suggestion for a docs team blog
<j1mc> to whoever checks this later: http://nitalynx.wordpress.com/2011/05/27/big-bad-help/
<j1mc> ^^ cool blog post by a gnome docs intern
<MrChrisDruif> Aloha j1
<MrChrisDruif> xD
#ubuntu-doc 2011-06-05
<head_victim> j1mc: Jim from the mailing list?
<j1mc> head_victim: that's me!
<head_victim> <Jared
<j1mc> howdy
<head_victim> Gday
<head_victim> I'm not super active as much as I'd like, I used to do a lot more wiki work I just thought I'd give you some feedback as there didn't seem to be much discussion on it.
<head_victim> As long as it was adding to the team not just another place to repeat stuff and there were people willing to contribute content it would be a good idea is the gist of what I was trying to say.
<j1mc> head_victim: sorry for the late reply... i had stepped away.
<head_victim> j1mc: no worries, I live in Australia, I'm used to replies taking hours from you northern hemisphere types ;)
<j1mc> head_victim: cool. your feedback makes sense.  :)
<j1mc> hi all
#ubuntu-doc 2012-05-28
<Pendulum> jbicha: hey, are you around?
<jbicha> Pendulum: hi
<Pendulum> jbicha: you were the person who came into the Accessibility team channel to mention the high contrast theme (or maybe it was inverse contrast) problems, right?
<jbicha> yes, I need to check if those bugs had been reported already and follow up on it
<Pendulum> I was wondering if you'd be willing to write up your experience trying to install, etc. either for your own blog (if you have one) or for the Accessibility Team's blog?
<Pendulum> We seem to have the best time getting people's awareness up when we have stories and the high contrast/inverse contrast themes aren't a place we get much feedback
<jbicha> ok, feel free to ping me if I haven't posted about it on my blog by the end of the week
<Pendulum> thank you so much!
#ubuntu-doc 2012-06-02
<knome> can anybody elaborate on what kind of access/permissions members of subteams of LP ~ubuntu-doc will have?
<sagaci> help.ubuntu.com doesn't seem to mention libreoffice and wiki.ubuntu.com only concerns installing and building/ppa newer versions, rather any documentation on how to use it. Is this intended for the user to go upstream or just find the documentation at lo.org?
#ubuntu-doc 2013-05-29
<pleia2> bkerensa: what should we tell dholbach re: docs docs for the community site?
<pleia2> (for now I just left a note in the etherpad saying the rewrite is in progress)
<bkerensa> pleia2: I think we just need to let them know its being re-written and that should be done hopefully next month schedule providing
<bkerensa> I have been swamped since UDS :s
<bkerensa> In fact I have to go teach a Xubuntu class shortly or I would be working on it now
<pleia2> enjoy :)
<bkerensa> pleia2: well hopefully the attendees know its not a windows troubleshooting class this time
 * bkerensa facepalm
<bkerensa> Seniors come in... then I see them.... My face goes :s
<bkerensa> and I realize they are not here for Linux
<bkerensa> :)
<pleia2> some might be! :)
#ubuntu-doc 2013-05-31
<pleia2> bkerensa: oh, thank goodness re: timezones, I thought 1:30-8:30AM was an odd choice for you, simply assumed you were trying to accommodate some specific people and were willing to sacrifice your sleep time :)
 * pleia2 took one look at the old slot and said "eh, I'll read the meeting minutes"
<godbyk> pleia2: I found it odd, too, so I emailed bkerensa about it. It should be corrected now.
<godbyk> pleia2: Though it appears that Doodle doesn't recognize daylight saving time.
#ubuntu-doc 2013-06-02
<Atamira> grief
#ubuntu-doc 2014-05-26
<belkinsa> Hey all, have we decided on when the next meeting will be yet?  Or do we need some action to get on set up?
<belkinsa> And how to get into Wiki User Settings?
<knome> belkinsa, which wiki?
<belkinsa> The wiki where all of the team and none of the support is.
<belkinsa> The ubuntu wiki.
<knome> the community help wiki or the developer wiki? :P
<knome> wiki.ubuntu.com: click your username
<belkinsa> Community Help Wiki
<knome> sorry for missing the first message ;)
<belkinsa> Ah, thank you.
<knome> help.ubuntu.com: click "settings"
<Megabyte> Hello, guys
<Megabyte> I saw at your page you need someone to help with the manual.
<Megabyte> Who do I talk to?
<belkinsa> #ubuntu-manual might be your better choice.
<belkinsa> Or
<belkinsa> Well, he is not on...the driver.
<Megabyte> belkinsa, thanks. It seems no one is there, but let me see if I can start working on this right away.
#ubuntu-doc 2014-05-28
<pleia2> belkinsa: now that we know how the blueprints should be named, might want to update https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/ubuntu-documentation-team-roundtable-june2014-plan
<pleia2> probably should be community-1406-ubuntu-documentation-team
<belkinsa> I know but the plan was for that blueprint that you named.
<pleia2> hm?
<belkinsa> I was following my action item from the last meeting.  Make a plan bluebrint so we know what to talk aboyt.
#ubuntu-doc 2014-05-30
<shaunm_> belkinsa: ping
<belkinsa> What's up, shaunm_?
<shaunm_> belkinsa: hey, I was wondering if you were planning on coming to Open Help?
<belkinsa> I'm not coming.
<shaunm_> :(
<ahoneybun> hey pleia2
<pleia2> ahoneybun: nice to see you
<ahoneybun> pleia2: likewise I did some jumping from kubuntu but I'm back
<pleia2> welcome back :)
<ahoneybun> thanks :)
<ahoneybun> btw love the xubuntu docs website
<pleia2> thanks, good to have knome on board to make pretty things for us
<belkinsa> pleia2, I made the blueprint: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/community-1406-ubuntu-documentation-team
<pleia2> belkinsa: great!
<belkinsa> And I just noticed that I should schedule it, since it's in community track.
<ahoneybun> pleia2: I wish our doc site could look great like that
<pleia2> belkinsa: indeed :)
<pleia2> ahoneybun: for kubuntu?
<belkinsa> And the site still for the March one.
<pleia2> belkinsa: yeah, I found if you follow links on summit.ubuntu.com you usually land in the right spot, but uds.ubuntu.com is a mess
<belkinsa> Ah.  Thanks for the tip.
<pleia2> belkinsa: mhall119 over in #ubuntu-community-team has been super helpful
<pleia2> he can answer any questions you have as a track lead, and has the power to fix things :)
<belkinsa> I know, I told him about it.
<pleia2> ok,c ool
<belkinsa> Anyways, when should I schedule it?
<pleia2> I'd look at past meetings we've had lately and shoot for something that seems like it might work for folks (not a lot of time to do a doodle poll this time)
<belkinsa> Alright.
<ahoneybun> pleia2: yes kubuntu
<ahoneybun> pleia2: http://docs.kubuntu.org/
<pleia2> ahoneybun: ah yeah, seems like that could do with a refresh :)
<ahoneybun> as we use userbase.kde.org to host and a few tools to export it as docbook still I believe
 * pleia2 nods
<pleia2> we just maintain an html page in bzr that we sync up to a static filesystem (we're all still hosted with canonical)
<pleia2> and I build docs and push them up with each release
<ahoneybun> I heard that something server wise will change so it might get better then
<ahoneybun> pleia2: we did it this way for better translations
<ahoneybun> plus for MediaWiki
<pleia2> ah yeah, we haven't quite figured out how to publish translations
<ahoneybun> though this site layout does not off them
<ahoneybun> for that site anyway userbase has them
 * pleia2 nods
<ahoneybun> big changes with the new site for kubuntu.org
#ubuntu-doc 2015-05-29
<ahoneybun> pleia2:  https://github.com/ahoneybun/kubuntu-manual
<pleia2> ahoneybun: cool, coming along well?
<ahoneybun> yep
<ahoneybun> RST is pretty nice I wish I could find a way to display code in it like <code> sudo pi </code> or something
<pmatulis> ahoneybun: doc meeting on tuesday. did you get around to updating the agenda?
<ahoneybun> pmatulis: no I forgot/did not check if you updated the date
<ahoneybun> I did not want to change something before you did
<pmatulis> ahoneybun: yes, i cleaned it
<ahoneybun> pmatulis: would it be under misc?
<ahoneybun> since it cover most of the topic
<ahoneybun> ?
<pmatulis> well, what are you proposing? i don't think it reasonable to change both server and desktop in one go. like i said before, the server guide is prolly the best to start with. my opinion anyway
<ahoneybun> yea server is best as a testbed since you started it already
<ahoneybun> and I can help with that
<pmatulis> well i hope so :)
<pmatulis> ahoneybun: there is the important question of translations. i don't know the impact this will have on that aspect. it would behoove you to look at that prior to the meeting
<ahoneybun> LP handles those no?
<pmatulis> ahoneybun: sure, but does it mean everything will need to be translated again?
<pmatulis> ahoneybun: also, you put my name in the agenda item. my push was a year ago. if you want to do this you'll need to lead it
<ahoneybun> http://sphinx-doc.org/intl.html?highlight=translations : I'm reading this atm
<ahoneybun> it takes .pot files
<ahoneybun> I'll talk to someone who speaks rominan and see if he can help me test the translation
<pmatulis> rominan?
<ahoneybun> opps
<ahoneybun> *romania
<ahoneybun> bbl
#ubuntu-doc 2016-06-02
<sethj> is the wiki still in lockdown?
<sethj> A friend wants to apply for membership, but can't edit the wiki because he's not a member.. I could do the edits for him, but that's messy..
<pleia2> sethj: unfortunately yes :(
<pleia2> this team is all volunteers, and no one currently is able to make the time to work with Canonical on an alternate solution
<sethj> pleia2, is there any way he could get write access to create his wiki page?
<pleia2> not at this time
<sethj> I really really don't want to have to do it proxy, because I think that would be enough work he'd just put it off :/
<pleia2> I understand that it's a problem, but I'm also unable to make time right now
<sethj> hmm, well with Svetlana trying to increase membership a lot it's going to get bigger :/
<sethj> (not that that isnt' a good thing!)
<sethj> pleia2, any way I could help?
<pleia2> sethj: you could join the ubuntu-doc mailing list and start a thread about looking for a solution that we can propose to Canonical IS
<sethj> Okay, I will do that... whenever I can find the time. I might have a minute tomorrow.
<sethj> Thanks!
<pleia2> sure, thanks for being willing to help :)
#ubuntu-doc 2017-05-30
<Guest25187> Hi guys, just looking at the pdf variants of the various docs (eg. Ubuntu Server Guide) and was wondering if there was a latex source or something similar that they were created from?
<pleia2> they're stored in bzr in docbook format, I'll get the link
<pleia2> https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-doc/serverguide/trunk
<Guest25187> Thanks thats exactly what I was after :)
<pleia2> details about contributing and how to use them: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/UbuntuServerGuide
<Guest25187> Looking through that now. Thanks for the pointer :)
<pleia2> you're welcome
<dsmythies> GunnarHj : I found the "Meetingology bot crash course" notes that Lyz made one time. So, I can help chair if you want.
<GunnarHj> dsmythies: Thanks, but I really think it will go faster without it. (I've already made some preparations.)
<dsmythies> GunnarHj : Huh? Do you mean that we will not bother with meetingology?
<GunnarHj> dsmythies: Well... Yes, that was my thought. Bad idea?
<dsmythies> O.K. with me.
<GunnarHj> dsmythies: We still have the IRC log as the 'minute', right?
<dsmythies> Yes.
<dsmythies> O.K. I am here for docs meeting.
<jbicha> o/
<GunnarHj> Meeting time! (without bot) Welcome all!
<GunnarHj> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/MeetingAgenda
<GunnarHj> Who are here for the meeting (besides those who have already waved)?
<pmatulis> o/
<clissold345> Hi everyone.
<GunnarHj> Hi clissold345!
<dsmythies> Hi
<GunnarHj> Ok, as regards the desktop stuff, I inserted some comments under respective agenda item. Hopefully you all agree with some of the steps taken, and if so there is no idea to talk about it further now. So I thought I'd echo respective item, and then you chime in if you want to add or question something or ask for clarifications. Is that a reasonable way to proceed?
<dsmythies> Yes.
<GunnarHj> * Overall presentation
<GunnarHj> Nothing? Good. Next item:
<GunnarHj> * How does ubuntu-docs fit in?
<GunnarHj> (There are obviously quite a few things we need to consider further once we know more about the 17.10 desktop.)
<dsmythies> agreed
<GunnarHj> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-doc/ubuntu-docs/trunk/view/head:/ubuntu-help/Makefile.am
<GunnarHj> (Shows how small ubuntu-docs has become.)
<dsmythies> which is good.
<GunnarHj> Yes.
<GunnarHj> Well, if nothing further, then next:
<GunnarHj> * Workflow / bug tracker
<dsmythies> looks good to me.
<dsmythies> we will have to update the related "how to" wiki pages.
<jbicha> I'd like to talk about gnome-user-docs string freeze, is now a good point to bring that up?
<GunnarHj> dsmythies: indeed (the wiki)
<GunnarHj> jbicha: Now or under translations. Take it now.
<jbicha> GNOME historically has no docs string freeze at all (I guess because 1: it's hard to get people to write docs and 2: docs kind of needs the UI to be frozen first)
<jbicha> I'd like to propose to the GNOME Docs team to change that policy so that we can ship better updated upstream translations
<jbicha> I'd like to make the proposal with a suggested schedule
<jbicha> https://wiki.gnome.org/ThreePointTwentyfive
<jbicha> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtfulAardvark/ReleaseSchedule
<jbicha> I was thinking about Docs String Freeze being at the 3.26.0 release and a gnome-user-docs tarball would need to be released at 3.26.1 with the updated translations
<jbicha> 3.26.0 is approximately Sep 13, and 3.26.1 is approximately Oct 4, Ubuntu 17.10 is released Oct 19
<GunnarHj> jbicha: Sounds as a very good idea to me.
<dsmythies> Sounds good to me. Is gnome likely to agree to an Ubunut driven timeline?
<jbicha> at string freeze, gnome-3-26 would be branched and further work could continue in the git master branch (in preparation for the next GNOME major release)
<jbicha> dsmythies: it would benefit all distros :)
<dsmythies> O.K. great.
<jbicha> it's particularly beneficial to say, Ubuntu and Fedora which do not ship the .0 release but ship .1 or .2
<GunnarHj> On our side we need to call the translators' attention to the fact that the bulk of the desktop guide is to be translated upstream.
<jbicha> ok, I'm ready for the next topic unless there are more commentsâ¦
<dsmythies> lets move along.
<GunnarHj> * Translations
<jbicha> GunnarHj: have you done any GNOME translation work yet?
<jbicha> and do we have any other translators here today?
<GunnarHj> jbicha: No, I haven't. But other Swedish translators have, fortunately, so Swedish is well translated already. :)
<GunnarHj> (Hannie let me know that she couldn't make it today.)
<dsmythies> ... I was just going to write that Hannie usually comes.
<GunnarHj> Ok, let's proceed...
<GunnarHj> * Stable release updates
<jbicha> translators should look into https://l10n.gnome.org/ and https://wiki.gnome.org/TranslationProject
<dsmythies> great that you have decoupled.
<GunnarHj> jbicha: Right. I'm going to post to the ubuntu-translators list.
<clissold345> I have a point to ask about it. It will probably take a few minutes.
<GunnarHj> clissold345: Let's give it some time.
<clissold345> For the 16.04 help I would have liked to make some corrections to the help. But unfortunately that wasn't possible. Will it be possible now the decoupling has happened?
<clissold345> For example if 18.04 is an LTS and I find some errors and want to correct them (after 18.04 has been released)?
<jbicha> clissold345: English errors or translation errors?
<clissold345> I'll correct the English but translations would need to be made too.
<GunnarHj> clissold345: It will be possible to handle it in consultation with the translators.
<jbicha> GunnarHj: wouldn't that mean that we would need to unfreeze docs for a time and then freeze again for translators before release?
<dsmythies> like we do now for the serverguide.
<GunnarHj> jbicha: Hmm... Probably. I have still not switched my thinking 100% to the fact that we now rely on the upstream procedures.
<jbicha> well, do y'all want to modify my GNOME Docs proposed schedule to include that?
<clissold345> GunnarHj, that would be great. Obviously it's not up to me alone to decide if the documentation is updated. Eg I realise the translators might have a significant amount of work to do.
<GunnarHj> jbicha: It's not apparent to me how to include SRUing in a schedule...
<jbicha> one issue is that GNOME currently doesn't bother with LTS releases project-wide
<jbicha> if someone wants to maintain a module long-term, there's nothing stopping them though
<jbicha> so if an Ubuntu contributor cares, they could set a schedule for how the thawing and re-freezing of gnome-user-docs would work
<GunnarHj> jbicha: Ok. Maybe it would be good if you open for the thought to start with, then.
<clissold345> It's a long way ahead but if 18.04 is an LTS (maintained for 5 years) we could perhaps consider a documentation update say 3 months after 18.04 has been released?
<jbicha> clissold345: it's not that far ahead, Ubuntu 18.04 LTS might ship GNOME 3.26 which will releases in 3.5 months :)
<GunnarHj> clissold345: Actually that's exactly what happened with 16.04 (for special reasons).
<jbicha> I think I'll just start with proposing the simple schedule and if people step up to maintain gnome-user-docs LTS branches, that can be added on later
<GunnarHj> jbicha: Ok, sounds reasonable to me. (For really important changes we can simply decide that content is more important than translations.)
<jbicha> so the SRU topic is undecided now, but next topic?
<clissold345> GunnarHj, OK well that sounds promising for 18.04. If we can do a documentation release (say) 3 months after 18.04 is released we can fix significant errors (if there were any).
<GunnarHj> jbicha: This is the SRU topic. :)
<jbicha> GunnarHj: yes, I just didn't want to stall the meeting
<GunnarHj> Moving on then:
<GunnarHj> * GNOME events
<GunnarHj> On the agenda as reminders. Also, having clissold345 in particular in mind for the sprint. Would you be interested, clissold345? (It's possible to apply for community funding.)
<jbicha> I encourage y'all to ask Canonical for sponsorship funding if it would help you attend: https://community.ubuntu.com/help-information/funding/
<jbicha> but apply early since it may take some time for the applications to be processed
<GunnarHj> jbicha: Thanks for the link.
<GunnarHj> clissold345: You don't have to answer now, of course. Let's move on.
<GunnarHj> * Server
<dsmythies> Said what I wanted to in the aengda
<dsmythies> agenda
<clissold345> GunnarHj, sorry I'm a bit slow. I think it will take me a while to start getting familiar with gnome help. So no I don't want to go the sprint this year.
<dsmythies> very happy to be getting subject matter expert contributions.
<GunnarHj> clissold345: Ok, that's fine.
<GunnarHj> dsmythies: Right, it's nice to see the involvement of the server team folks.
<dsmythies> not sure I should be gating point release on getting help with update stuff, but have now "kicked" serverteam e-mail list.
<clissold345> dsmythies, do you need more input for the server guide? Will the experts give it?
<dsmythies> Yes, more, always more. They tend to ignore the serverguide requirments, but it has been on their agenda the last month or two.
<dsmythies> including some new serverguide items to add.
<dsmythies> should we move on?
<clissold345> dsmythies, do you know the chapters/sections that most need attention? Let them know what parts most need revising?
<dsmythies> We could review Peter's list on the wiki. The whole thing needs a good going over.
<pmatulis> agreed
<dsmythies> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/UbuntuServerGuide
<GunnarHj> Are we ready to move to next topic?
<dsmythies> yes.
<GunnarHj> * help.ubuntu.com
<GunnarHj> I think the publishing issues due to several packages is a homework for dsmythies and myself.
<GunnarHj> Publishing "dev" versions? In the case of the desktop guide we'd then publish something different compared to released packages.
<dsmythies> Yes. the thought is to publish, and perhaps, be out of sync with the released package and or the offical tranlsated stuff.
<dsmythies> However, then there is a spot to find "fix committed" stuff.
<clissold345> GunnarHj, publishing a dev version of the desktop help would sometimes be useful for review purposes. Do you remember Pete who checked the printer setup page?
<dsmythies> we do it already anyhow, just only about 2 months before release.
<dsmythies> now, I'm saying lets just do it all the time.
<dsmythies> in the case of 17.10 help docs, it would allow us lots of time to find issues with the html versions.
<GunnarHj> dsmythies: You haven't realized how complicated the publishing will be with 3 sources. ;)
<dsmythies> Yes, I have, which is why I want to get started.
<GunnarHj> dsmythies: Ok, that's a point.
<dsmythies> it will end up being out of time before we get it to work.
<clissold345> I like the idea of a regularly published dev version of the desktop help but it's not worth it if it's time-consuming for Gunnar or Doug.
<dsmythies> for the serverguide it might redcue the number of point releases.
<dsmythies> once we have it working the overhead is low.
<dsmythies> and we wouldn't always do it for every trunk update.
<dsmythies> I have a time limit of 15 minutes from now.
<dsmythies> I assume Gunnar will return.
<GunnarHj> Sorry, net connection problems...
<clissold345> Move on to Miscellaneous?
<dsmythies> pmatulis : do you have any update from your big thread "Feedback request | Documentation site reorg, switch to Markdown"
<dsmythies> by the way, i just an -email from the serverteam. They will look at the update stuff, and help get it sorted out in terms of the serverguide.
<dsmythies> I have a max of 7 minutes left.
<GunnarHj> While waiting for pmatulis, did you conclude anything as regards the dev publishing?
<pmatulis> dsmythies, well... it's hard to bring in new ideas? :)
<dsmythies> No. I'll make a proposed version on my test web site and e-mail you all the link. It will just have a place holder for desktop at the moment.
<GunnarHj> dsmythies: Ok, thanks.
<dsmythies> becuase as Gunner mentioned, that will be a challenge.
<dsmythies> pmatulis: So that is a no then?
<pmatulis> dsmythies, exactly, my proposal was shot down
<dsmythies> Well, that wasn't my understanding with respect to the serverguide. It was my understanding with respect to desktop docs.
<pmatulis> i accept that the only viable target (to change) was the server guide but i was left demoralized
<pmatulis> it would lead to yet another round of critiques. i'm human
<dsmythies> Are we done?
<clissold345> Decide on another meeting some time?
<GunnarHj> pmatulis: Sorry to hear that you took it that way. AFAICT the response you got was factual, and not directed towards you or your good intentions.
<GunnarHj> clissold345: Let's take that on the list.
<dsmythies> I agree with Gunnar.
<dsmythies> I have to go. Thanks all and bye.
<pmatulis> there was a lot of unwarranted sniping
<clissold345> Thanks everyone.
<GunnarHj> Thanks all, and sorry again for the interruption...
<jbicha> GunnarHj: maybe gnome-user-docs and gnome-getting-started-docs should have docs teams subscribed to their bugs
<GunnarHj> jbicha: It depends on what you mean by "docs team". I see that ~ubuntu-core-doc is already subscribed to gnome-user-docs bugs, which is good, and I think the same should be the case with gnome-getting-started-docs.
<jbicha> whatever team you think is fine with me
<GunnarHj> jbicha: Ok. Just added ~ubuntu-core-doc to gnome-getting-started-docs.
<GunnarHj> jbicha: Btw, when we talk about those two packages, will all the language specific binaries automatically be included in "main"? I think it's important that they are, or else they won't be pulled via the installer.
<jbicha> GunnarHj: they are all in main
<jbicha> https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/madison.cgi?package=gnome-getting-started-docs
<jbicha> you could also use the rmadison CLI tool (from the devscripts package)
<GunnarHj> jbicha: Are you sure of that?
<GunnarHj> $ rmadison gnome-getting-started-docs-sv
<GunnarHj>  gnome-getting-started-docs-sv | 3.18.2-1ubuntu1 | xenial/universe  | all
<GunnarHj>  gnome-getting-started-docs-sv | 3.22.0-1ubuntu1 | yakkety/universe | all
<GunnarHj>  gnome-getting-started-docs-sv | 3.24.0-1ubuntu1 | zesty/universe   | all
<GunnarHj>  gnome-getting-started-docs-sv | 3.24.1-0ubuntu2 | artful/universe  | all
<GunnarHj> jbicha: I have a feeling that since those binaries are neither seeded nor depended upon, they somehow need to be explicitily/manually moved to "main".
<jbicha> https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/madison.cgi?package=gnome-getting-started-docs&S=on
<GunnarHj> jbicha: Precisely. And that's what worries me.
<jbicha> GunnarHj: also affects gnome-user-docs, but I just asked in #ubuntu-release for you
<GunnarHj> jbicha: Ok, thanks!
<GunnarHj> jbicha: This is actually a wider issue. See for instance:
<GunnarHj> https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/madison.cgi?package=libreoffice-dictionaries&S=on
<GunnarHj> lo-dicts builds a lot of binaries which are pulled via language-selector in the same way. Most of them are in main, but apparently not all.
<GunnarHj> Up to 17.04 this has been 'compensated' through language-selector-gnome, which has pulled what the installer didn't pull. But I assume that language-selector-gnome won't be in use in 17.10...
<jbicha> could you add that to #ubuntu-release or maybe email ubuntu-devel or ubuntu-release about whether all language pkgs for main pkgs should be in main too
<GunnarHj> jbicha: I think I'll talk to someone, e.g. L_aney, tomorrow. (I don't see your entry in #ubuntu-release yet.)
<jbicha> before you arrived there, I wrote
<jbicha> "gnome-user-docs & gnome-getting-started-docs were promoted to main but could we get all of their binary pkgs in main too for the other languages?"
<GunnarHj> jbicha: Thanks for letting me know. I'll follow up on it tomorrow.
<jbicha> np, nearly everyone has universe enabled anyway
<GunnarHj> jbicha: Unfortunately I don't think that helps. But I'll find out.
<jbicha> GunnarHj: maybe we just need to add them to
<jbicha> https://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-dev/ubuntu-seeds/ubuntu.artful/view/head:/supported
<GunnarHj> jbicha: Hmm... That may be it. It's over my head....
<jbicha> ok, I think that's part of the ultimate answer :)
<jbicha> I think usually for stuff to be in main, it has to be a recommends or depends of something in one of Ubuntu's main seeds
<jbicha> supported is a seed that isn't installed by default
<jbicha> 'desktop' is where ubuntu-desktop comes from
<jbicha> anyway, have a good night!
<GunnarHj> jbicha: So there is a distinction between "seeded" and "installed". Thanks for the lesson. If that file is the answer, it's in a need for a general review.
#ubuntu-doc 2017-06-01
<GunnarHj> jbicha:
<GunnarHj> https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-doc-list/2017-May/msg00018.html
<GunnarHj> Should we, as a result of Andre's response, reconsider the decision to not use the LP UI for translations of gnome-user-docs (and gnome-getting-started-docs)? Personally I think we still should stay out of LP for now, and see what happens in practice, but asking the question appears to be motivated.
<jbicha> GunnarHj: I'm disappointed that no one from GNOME seems supportive of my idea
<GunnarHj> jbicha: Me too, of course.
<jbicha> I might try counter-offering with expanding the proposal with a thaw,refreeze,release section for bug fixes like clissold345 suggested at this week's meeting
<jbicha> it's more work and complexity and I was going with Simple to start with
<jbicha> but maybe Simple was too Incomplete
<jbicha> part of the complexity is just finding someone that is willing to do the work to coordinate the schedule and do the point releases
<jbicha> does that sound like something you'd be interesting in signing up for, at least for whatever series 18.04 LTS uses?
<GunnarHj> jbicha: I'm already deeply involved in that kind of dialogue (when necessary) with Ubuntu's translator teams. Hesitating though to expand that kind of involvement to upstream.
<GunnarHj> Simplicity is essential given the limited resources. Whatever route we take, there will always be some kind of tradeoff in the end.
<jbicha> how much time do you suggest I offer to translators for a point release bugfix?
<GunnarHj> jbicha: 2 or 3 weeks.
<jbicha> to be blunt, I'm not sure the string changes after 3.24.0 were that important: https://git.gnome.org/browse/gnome-user-docs/log
<jbicha> but an example of a bug that's serious enough to change the docs or remove the incorrect line is the 2nd sentence at
<jbicha> https://help.gnome.org/users/gnome-clocks/stable/alarm-add.html
<jbicha> the alarm "will go off regardless of whether Clocks is open or not" is the opposite of how it currently works
<GunnarHj> jbicha: Maybe the problem typically won't be big enough in practice to justify too much work. As regards the latter example, it's not part of gnome-user-docs, right?
<GunnarHj> but yes, it sounds as an example of "misleading the users"
<jbicha> although I've been talking about gnome-user-docs, what I'm actually proposing is for Documentation String Freeze to be added to https://wiki.gnome.org/ThreePointTwentyfive
<jbicha> so it affects all of GNOME!
<GunnarHj> jbicha: Ok, I see.
<GunnarHj> jbicha: In that case, should you possibly talk to other people beyond the gnome-doc list? GNOME's equivalent to our release team?
<jbicha> I don't think the GNOME Release Team would object to my proposal at all
<GunnarHj> ... but still listen to the GNOME docs folks?
<jbicha> no one wants to force the GNOME Docs team to do something they have strong objections to :)
<GunnarHj> jbicha: Precisely.
<GunnarHj> jbicha: All development, including docs writing, is done more conveniently without bothering deadlines. ;) Personally I'm very much in favor of deadlines (and discipline).
<jbicha> right, the kinds of bugs that Paul fixed after 3.24.0 were honestly not something that couldn't have been done a week sooner, or something so critical it couldn't wait 6 months for users to get it
<GunnarHj> jbicha: And making people think in  that way is the bug merit of the idea with a doc string freeze.
<GunnarHj> s/bug/big/
<GunnarHj> jbicha: On another topic: Did you possibly confirm our theory that adding e.g. gnome-user-docs-<lang> to the supported seed is the way to go to make the installer pull such packages? Otherwise I'm going to file a bug, and ask someone to triage it before preparing a merge proposal.
<jbicha> I think you can go straight to the merge proposal
<jbicha> you said you thought there were other main pkgs that had universe language pkgs?
<GunnarHj> jbicha: Yes, thinking mostly about libreoffice-dictionaries. But I can consider that as well and prepare an MP with it all.
<GunnarHj> jbicha: basically try to get language-selector's pkg_depends and the supported seed in sync.
<jbicha> it's only been 2 days so I'll wait a bit longer before poking the GNOME Docs team
<GunnarHj> jbicha: Sounds reasonable.
#ubuntu-doc 2020-05-27
<sharky_pi> Hi folks, anyone up for a quick chat about fstab docs?
<sharky_pi> ok well in case people circle back to this, https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Fstab
<sharky_pi> 1. https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Fstab#Pass_.28fsck_order.29
<sharky_pi> Pass: I feel it would be good to add a line of context to guide users on how and when to use pass. This is already begun, ("In practice...") but could be completed by giving a bit more info about whether one SHOULD fsck drives. The impression I get is that the value should be 2 for ext2/3/4 drives, and 0 for ntfs drives. But I'm not confident about
<sharky_pi> that.
<sharky_pi> 2. https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Fstab#Options
<sharky_pi> Common options, 9: "user" - in all the examples below and elsewhere on the web, the nearest term used is "users". Is "user" therefore a typo, or are these different things?
<sharky_pi> 3. Options 3.1 "I advise" doesn't mention uid or gid, perhaps it should given they're in the examples?
<sharky_pi> 4. Examples, gid=100 is given but gid=1000 is the norm, as I understand it. Again, is 100 a typo when it should be 1000 in the examples?
<sharky_pi> 5. For 20.04 and feasibly prior versions, should one install ntfs-3g and ntfs-config before editing fstab? This is advised in old fstab guides but I don't know if it's now moot or if these are included in the OS by default
<sharky_pi> 6. https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Fstab#New_Technology_File_System_.28NTFS.29
<sharky_pi> For ntfs, explaining how to get locales is helpful. It might be nice to also add a line of context explaining why one might want to set these, e.g. from ArchWiki
<sharky_pi> "Locales are used for rendering text, correctly displaying regional monetary values, time and date formats, alphabetic idiosyncrasies, and other locale-specific standards."
<sharky_pi> 7, finally: on the contact y'all page (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Contact) the URL for this chat is http://java.freenode.net//index.php?channel=ubuntu-doc but that timed out & failed for me. Might work for others. But perhaps the https://webchat.freenode.net/ would be better?
<pleia2> sharky_pi: everything under /community is a wiki, so you can edit it yourself if you join the wiki editors team, let me get the link
<pleia2> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-wiki-editors
<sharky_pi> certainly happy to do so but wanted to bounce some of this off others first, as a MASSIVELY don't want to make edits which are wrong! haha
<pleia2> others can't update it for you, since we're not experts on everything :)
<pleia2> your edits do seem reasonable though
<sharky_pi> totally fair enough. just wondering if anyone would mind looking at these proposals and
<sharky_pi> yeah exactly that, just seeing if i'm getting completely the wrong end of the stick somewhere
<pleia2> these were just written by folks who have a bit of time, so there's always room for improvement
<pleia2> details aren't ommitted intentionally
<pleia2> thanks for your help!
<sharky_pi> thanks pleia. I'll sign up with the link (thanks again)
<pleia2> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiGuide has more information about contributing and how things are organized
<pleia2> I'll warn you, it's sometimes a little tricky to log in and sometimes you have to clear caches to get rid of the Immutable Page link once you're re-logged in after you're added to the team
<pleia2> a lot of protections had to be put in due to bad spam :(
<sharky_pi> interesting, i'm literally looking into that issue now
<sharky_pi> completely fresh system, any time i go to login.ubuntu.com I get the ubuntuOne signin page which prepopulates with my old email & password, then flashes to my new email, then old, about 10X in 1 second, then stops at my old email. This isn't stored in firefox, the new working details are stored in lastpass, so I have no idea how the old details
<sharky_pi> remain, and subsequently I frrequently can't login and typically give up
<sharky_pi> (I try populating with new details manually or using lastpass but upon clicking submit, it's overwritten by the old info)
<pleia2> it sometimes takes me a few tries to log in, but usually I am facing timeout issues x_x
<sharky_pi> can you think of who might be responsible for this section of the site? I've been bamboozled by this behaviour for years now
<pleia2> the folks in #canonical-sysadmin
<sharky_pi> I figure it *HAS* to be stored within the site itself, since I have an empty firefox password manager and a blank cache
<sharky_pi> ooh, is that a freenode channel? thansk!
<pleia2> they're very aware of the problem, but there is no investment or resources for improving the situation
<sharky_pi> *thanks
<sharky_pi> ahaa. Boo.
<pleia2> it's been like this for a few years
<pleia2> the real solution is switching to wiki software that can handle the scale of the wiki, MoinMoin wasn't built to be as big as the Ubuntu wikis go
<pleia2> t
<pleia2> but that's a massive project :(
<sharky_pi> yup. alas :(
<pleia2> sorry to be a downer!
<sharky_pi> hey not at all - MUCH rather get confirmation of bad news than continue in ambiguity! I'm asking the sysadmin channel now, so fingers crossed they can tweak it on the backend
<pleia2> I think a large chunk of the team is in the UK, so hopefully you can get someone's attention
<pleia2> if you strike out, you can also submit a ticket to them via rt@ubuntu.com
<sharky_pi> great stuff, will do, thanks again
