#ubuntu-artwork 2005-09-27
<kamstrup> Has anybody heard from volvoguy lately?
#ubuntu-artwork 2005-09-29
<tiglionabbit> hi
<tiglionabbit> anyone alive today?
<klepas> moin
#ubuntu-artwork 2005-09-30
<segfault> hi, is there any breezy wallpaper yet?
#ubuntu-artwork 2005-10-01
<derek[] > :)
<AndyFitz> g'day
<derek[] > good day! :)
<derek[] > I received Ubuntu CDs a day before..
<derek[] > I'm very happy :)
<derek[] > I ran the live CD and was very satisfied :)
<AndyFitz> great
<derek[] > Then I went to their site, to drop a thanking message
<derek[] > but found that my account was washed out.. and now i needed to re-register at some launchpad site
<derek[] > Anyway, I'd like to contribute to this great open-source community
<kamstrup> you are most welcome derek[]  :-D
<derek[] > :D
<kamstrup> What kinda stuff do you like to do?
<derek[] > i'm not really an expert in using the os tools yet, but i'm into graphic designing
<derek[] > http://derek.vnvsoft.com/
<derek[] > my main skills are in Flash animations
<derek[] > which, sadly, i may have to leave when I migrate to linux
* kamstrup is looking at http://derek.vnvsoft.com/
<kamstrup> Yeah that is likely... :-(
<kamstrup> But Inkscape is a GREAT tool for SVG editing :-D
<derek[] > :D
<derek[] > no doubt
<derek[] > It really impressed me very much! I love Inkscape!
<kamstrup> :-D
<derek[] > and in many ways I found it better than Adobe Illustrator :)
<kamstrup> The Inkscape developers will be glad to hear that!
<kamstrup> What version of Inkscape have you been using?
<derek[] > started recently
<derek[] > 0.42
<kamstrup> OK. I just saw that you recieved Ubuntu CDs in the mail and figured you where using Hoary... - which doesn't have 0.42
<kamstrup> The on-canvas gradient editing in 0.42 is a great improvement over previous editions
<derek[] > i'm in windoze right now
<derek[] > haven't installed nix yet
<derek[] > coz i have to wrap up some old work started in flash
<derek[] > but i've started using inkscape and gimp, instead of illustrator and photoshop, already :)
<kamstrup> also in Windows?
<derek[] > also ?
<derek[] > yea i'm using the windows versions
<kamstrup> oh, just saw that you hadn't installed nix yet :-) Cool
<derek[] > :)
<derek[] > what about you?
<AndyFitz> heya derek[]   your site won't work 
<AndyFitz> without jscrip
<derek[] > yea :/
<derek[] > you don't have js enabled?
<AndyFitz> I do now .
<derek[] > okay
<AndyFitz> google doesn't like your site mate.   w3 it up
<AndyFitz> ;-)
<kamstrup> derek[] : I run Ubuntu Breezy exclusively.
<derek[] > kamstrup, kool. but it isn't a final release ..
<derek[] > AndyFitz, :)
<derek[] > AndyFitz, hope you have the flash plugin installed
<AndyFitz> derek I do.  I teach tutor flash to design studios ( while evangelising inkscape for illustration of course )
<derek[] > I see :)
<derek[] > Who designed the Ubuntu logo?
<AndyFitz> a studio in south africa
<derek[] > I see
<kamstrup> If I where to do a 3d-ish Ubuntu logo, would the three circles map to spheres or cylinders?
<AndyFitz> I have a great respect for identity discovery and wouldnt attempt it at my current design weight 
<derek[] > spheres
<derek[] > AndyFitz, i didn't get you
<kamstrup> ... hehe. I'd figure cylinders myself derek[]  
<AndyFitz> kamstrup,  technically its a trademark and you can't do anything to it without permission
<derek[] > kamstrup, those circles are the heads of the people I reckon :) ..so spheres ;)
<kamstrup> AndyFitz: Yes. But what if I'm designing wallpapers I'd like to request for submission in Breezy?
<AndyFitz> derek[]  there are people who put serious thought into design.  a brand design created a huge amount of maturity and insight
<derek[] > and why would you not do it?
<AndyFitz> kamstrup then design the wallpaper and use the ubuntu logo correctly.  ( enough whitespace.  no closeness to other logos  etc
<derek[] > i mean, if you're required to design a brand identity
<AndyFitz> derek[]  maybe one day I will be doing that.
<derek[] > ok =)
<AndyFitz> derek[]  if I was require I would refuse
<derek[] > why?
<kamstrup> AndyFitz: What I'd like to do is to make the Ubuntu logo enclose the earth
<AndyFitz> its not my place. Id have the respect for the entity requesting my services to reccomend them to the right studio. not attempt it myself and give them second grade design
<AndyFitz> kamstrup.  I'm sorry we really need to create a brand guide for ubuntu ( I believe canonical is doing this )  it will mention more about the logo and how to use it .
<AndyFitz> right now we only have a few set in stone rules ..  like  don't rotate it so one of the circles is directly on top or below
<derek[] > ohh
<derek[] > :)
<derek[] > I didn't notice the fixed positioning
<derek[] > :)
<derek[] > nice!
<AndyFitz> it would send a bad message to have an entity on the top or bottom .   visually:  it places one member of the community at an un-equal balance of the others
<kamstrup> I better lay off a 3d model then, since there's no official way of doing 3d-circle-of-friends...l 
<AndyFitz> as if to say "  this guy has to carry the weight"  or  "this guy is above these other two guys "
<derek[] > Guys, although I'm not an expert-level graphic-artist, (may be not even intermediate), I'd be very glad to help out the ubuntu-artwork in anyway I could. So please ask me if I could be of any use. :)
<AndyFitz> derek[]  that would be awesome mate
<derek[] > :] 
* kamstrup is finding some links for derek[]  
<AndyFitz> derek[]  do you use a form of instant messenger ?
<derek[] > AndyFitz, i get your point.
<derek[] > Yeah
<derek[] > all :D hehe
<derek[] > i've been a windoze user ;)
<AndyFitz> sweet .  PM me and I'll add you   brisgeek@jabber.org is my jabber
<derek[] > aww :(.. not jabber
<derek[] > I use MSN, ICQ, Yahoo
<AndyFitz> okay pm me your ICQ ;-)
<derek[] > ok
<kamstrup> Check out my proposal here: http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-art/2005-September/000260.html
<derek[] > AndyFitz, got it ;)
<derek[] > kamstrup, ok. 
* derek[]  loads up the url
<kamstrup> As far as our authority goes, we don't have much. As far as I know we are to _suggest _ various items for inclusion, and then Canonical/Ubuntu-devs deecide whether or not to use it.
<derek[] > I see
<kamstrup> It's a bit frustrating not knowing whether or not a piece of work is going to be used, but that's how it is for now. If we really do good that might change.
<derek[] > Okay :)
<derek[] >  - Artwork 2005-09-29
<derek[] >  - Release 2005-10-13
* derek[]  reading
<derek[] > I'm away for meal
<derek[] > The six calender wallpapers should have a 
<derek[] > 	common red thread - maybe even a history.
<derek[] > "red thread"?
<kamstrup> I don't know if it's a proper english term...
<kamstrup> Like a common idea
<derek[] > I see
<kamstrup> sharing a theme/feel/mood etc
<derek[] > understood
<kamstrup> :-D
<derek[] > :] 
<derek[] > http://art.ubuntu.com/images/backgrounds/Ubuntu-UbuntuGlasses_1600x1200.jpg
<derek[] > nice
<derek[] > who did it?
<derek[] > Is this totally CG?
<kamstrup> Don't know...
<derek[] > ok
<kamstrup> If it's a photography there's prolly some copyrights problems attached to it... :-S
<derek[] > :/
<derek[] > Some nice CG work: http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=57355
<kamstrup> Yeah, nice, but not exactly what you'd include in a commercial distro ;-P
<derek[] > ?
<derek[] > commercial distro?
<kamstrup> Well... Commercial and commercial... Ubuntu is sort of commercial if you ask me. In a good way that is!
<derek[] > o.o
<derek[] > Its free!
<derek[] > commercial is - that which is making money
<derek[] > :)
<derek[] > is it?
<kamstrup> I guess that it's a long term goal to make money. I don't know _anything_ about this though...
<kamstrup> It will always be free of charge
<derek[] > yes
<derek[] > and they said, even the enterprise edition will be free
<derek[] > be back later
<ogra> i dont think comercial aspects have any point here, but rather, the question: does a girl firing a weapon on someone, comply with the "humanity to others" slogan we tout... ;)
<kamstrup> That was also (to some extent) I meant. "Is this the message you want to send as an enterprise?" (touting Humanity to others)...
<kamstrup> ;-P
<kamstrup> Gotta go. If you're subscribed to ubuntu-art check your mailboxes... Cheers!
<AndyFitz> hahahahahaha  I just saw the images in question
<kamstrup> ... sorry, what was he talking about?
<mpathy> Hi there.. I came because of the appeal in the mailing list.. what need to be done? :)
<mpathy> nobody here?
#ubuntu-artwork 2005-10-02
<klepas> moin moin
<mpathy> Hi.. Anybody online? ;)
<mikkel> /quit
<mikkel> arhg! my X is dead, and I can't get my head around this IRC client :-S
<kamstrup> weee! (I was mikkel before...)
<mpathy> hi..
<mpathy> who works on what right now?
<kamstrup> I don't work on anything new atm. Might make the final adjustments to my rocky_shore wallpaper I posted to the ML later today though.
<mpathy> ah.. you are the one with the transparent png? its nice
<kamstrup> yes I am. Thanks :-D
<kamstrup> I think you're free to do what ever you like ...
<kamstrup> We need work in every single area :-S
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-artwork:kamstrup] : Artwork deadline is this thursday! Turn up your music and get to work!
<mpathy> i know :( but i dont have really much time the next days.. thats too bad!
<mpathy> but I'll try to do a transparent png of the default background! what do you think?
<mpathy> What is the most important task? Perhaps I have some free time @ work.. :)
<derek[] > :)
<mpathy> derek[] : now? is there some little work? ;)
<derek[] > i wouldn't know mpathy 
<derek[] > mpathy, http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-art/2005-September/000260.html
<kamstrup> I just finished my rocky_shore background and submitted it to art.ubuntu.com (waiting to be accepted).
<kamstrup> Check it out: JPG: http://www.skim.dk/breezy/ogmore/ogmore-1600x1200.jpg
<kamstrup> PNG: http://www.skim.dk/breezy/ogmore/ogmore-1600x1200.png (tansparent)
* derek[]  looks
<mpathy> nice
<mpathy> derek[] : i looked at the list but I didnt see where is the progress who works on what etc.
<kamstrup> I especially like how the pngs look with a vertical gradient behind it...
<derek[] > mpathy, ask kamstrup 
<mpathy> kamstrup: I dont know who works on what!
<kamstrup> derek[] , mpathy : Me sa kno' notin'
<kamstrup> Seriously...
<mpathy> hmm..
<kamstrup> Right now we need the following:
<mpathy> apropos read my mail? it seems that its only going to you but not to the mailing list, if I understand my mailer daemon right.. :)
<kamstrup> Wallpaper for main inclusion targeting young audience (go for cool factor)
<kamstrup> Six calendar images
<kamstrup> Just because I've submitted proposals for childrens- and realistic wallpapers doesn't mean you can't try out in that also...
<derek[] > kamstrup, "Me sa kno' notin" = ?
<kamstrup> derek[] : ... = I know nothing :-D
<derek[] > :D
<derek[] > in which language?
<kamstrup> sort of rastafari-gangsta
<kamstrup> ;P
<kamstrup> I suggested four categories for main wallpapers (children, teenage/cool, abstract, realism)
<kamstrup> To me volvoguys swirl http://art.ubuntu.com/backgrounds/ubuntu/3 is the best "abstract"
<kamstrup> I'm not sure I'm totally happy with my children's suggestion: http://art.ubuntu.com/backgrounds/ubuntu/44
<kamstrup> I have an idea...
<kamstrup> Are any of you (derek[] , mpathy) working on anything atm?
<derek[] > yes
<kamstrup> -- care to enlighten me ? :-P
<derek[] > btw, that children one doesn't have the logo in full
<derek[] > kamstrup, how?
<mpathy> kam
<mpathy> kamstrup: wouldnt it be enough to have at least one (the first) calendar image?
<kamstrup> derek[] : True. I could add one, but I'm not sure that we'd wan't to go with it anyway...
<kamstrup> mpathy: I don't think so.
<derek[] > ok
<derek[] > kamstrup, these artworks submitted can be edited ?
<derek[] > by anybody?
<kamstrup> mpathy: I don't think we have proven ourselves trustworthy enough (yet)
<derek[] > and replace the original?
<kamstrup> derek[] : ? You mean the ones on art.ubuntu.com?
<mpathy> kamstrup: why? better than six poorly selected..
<mpathy> ..i mean if we look at the deadline
<kamstrup> mpathy: We only have the power to "suggest" a collection to Canonical. If they don't like it, they'll come up with their own
<derek[] > yes
<kamstrup> mpathy: or, if we don't make the deadline they'll hire a pro
<kamstrup> mpathy: atleast, that's what i figure
<kamstrup> derek[] : It's not possible to edit the submitted art (sadly), I'd just submit a "Child's Play 2"
<mpathy> kamstrup: oh okay.. but we can write them some suggestions, beside suggesting some pictures. if they like our Ideas, they have ressources to get them done..
<mpathy> kamstrup: for example, the idea with the transparent png's which is really good :)
<kamstrup> mpathy: Yes, that is correct
<kamstrup> thx
<mpathy> kamstrup: who will suggest the things to canonical?
<kamstrup> volvoguy (Aaron Waite) he's the ArtTeam coordinator
<kamstrup> unfortuneatly he has run into some serious back-trouble
<kamstrup> derek[] : What are you working on?
<mpathy> kamstrup: and with resources I mean - if they like the elements idea for example, they can buy good stock photos.. perhaps, even if some idea is good, but it couldnt get the quality it couldnt have with better ressources, canonical at least take over the idea :)
<derek[] > something
<derek[] > a GUI
<mpathy> kamstrup: did you get my mail a few hours ago?
<kamstrup> oh, I thought it was something for the ArtTeam, sorry ;-P
<kamstrup> mpathy: Yes. It's a good idea with the "real calendar" in the calendar images, except that we'd have problems with localization
<mpathy> kamstrup: i think derek is at the office - like me - so he could only chat a bit without being fired ;)
<derek[] > brb
<kamstrup> mpathy: I'm at $HOME supposedly finishing my masters ;-P
<mpathy> kamstrup: the first two letters of the weekdays is sth. everybody understands, dont you think?
<kamstrup> mpathy: No... I don't :P
<mpathy> kamstrup: surely we can make no hebrew, islamic, etc. calendar, but an international calendar everybody understands.
<kamstrup> maybe...
<mpathy> kamstrup: hmm.. at least 25% of all calendars i had ever, where international, and I did
<kamstrup> btw: gnome-art is in the repos... You can install it from the app installer
<kamstrup> search for gnome-art
<mpathy> kamstrup: it would be sooo easy, if we could at another layer to the background.. but okay, you can have a calendar trough gDesklets, but it doesnt work properly in ubuntu :(
<kamstrup> In an SVG you could have a cronjob script that changed the date
<mpathy> kamstrup: oh, okay! it should be integrated as default in "drapper" it is very novice-friendly :)
<derek[] > back
<derek[] > sorry
<kamstrup> cheers
* kamstrup is compiling a list with Element ideas...
<mpathy> kamstrup: really? that sounds great! we also could do a ubuntu circle who is around the current day - woah ;)
<kamstrup> mpathy: Not likely to be accepted though, since it requires both scripts and a cronjob...
<kamstrup> mpathy: a little to much for a wallpaper
<mpathy> kamstrup: ..and as a package like "ubuntu-calendar-dynamic"...? ;)
<derek[] > mpathy, i don't work in an office, but at home.
<mpathy> derek[] : and I am in an office and with one hand on the "minimize" shortcut *gg*
<derek[] > hehe
<derek[] > and your work profile there is?
<kamstrup> derek[] : He's a lead engineer on Windows Wista
<kamstrup> ;-P
<derek[] > lol
<kamstrup> Elemental ideas so far:
<kamstrup> Fire-Air:       The sun, sparks flying out of a bonfire
<kamstrup> Fire-Earth:     Volcano
<kamstrup> Air-Water:      Rain, a whale spraying water, A rainy day, a rainbow
<kamstrup> Air-Earth:      A tree (crown in the air roots in the earth), a breeze over a savannah producing a dust swirl 
<kamstrup> Fire-Water:     Coffee, fire/sparks reflecting in water?
<kamstrup> Water-Earth:    A pool or lake, a spring, waterfall
<kamstrup> ...
<kamstrup> We might also consider making a splash screen.
<derek[] > what's with combining fire, water, air and earth?
<kamstrup> There are no Gnome splashes on art.ubuntu.com, nor am I aware of anyone working on one...
<derek[] > i see
<mpathy> kamstrup: hey not SUCH jokes :P
<mpathy> derek[] : I'm a media designer.. mostly doing retouches or ad's
<derek[] > i see
<derek[] > on which platform?
<mpathy> derek[] : like the most in this branche, we use Mac (OS X)
<mpathy> like I do now.. with Colloquy as IRC Client, a great program, its sad that its not ported right now..
<kamstrup> It just came to my mind...
<derek[] > ok
<kamstrup> I had a dream about X.org 7.0 this night... Scary :-S
<derek[] > mpathy, and you must be working with Photoshop?
<mpathy> derek[] : right.. apropos this is a very nice IRC: www.mpathy.de/files/irc_on_osx.pdf
<mpathy> derek[] : there you see the program (icons) i am working with..
* derek[]  looks
<derek[] > all Adobe and Macromedia products
<mpathy> but i also have MacGimp and Inkscape!
<derek[] > :)
<mpathy> but, to be honest, Gimp is not bad, but this horrific user interface :(
<kamstrup> Sorry, I gotta go. Nice talking to you guys!
<mpathy> its very sad that they dont make a new GimpShop: http://plasticbugs.com/index.php?p=241
<derek[] > a GimpShop?
<mpathy> yes ;) look at the freshmeat hp :) http://freshmeat.net/projects/gimpshop/?branch_id=57360&release_id=192296
<mpathy> great idea, but only one person working on it.. if I only would be better in programming..
<derek[] > where did you train yourself in these programs? (photoshop and others)
<mpathy> first yes, but then also at school (didnt know the right word.. sth. like "academy of arts")
<mpathy> and now i worked few years with them..
<derek[] > ok
<derek[] > and your interest in Gimp after using Photoshop?
<derek[] > i mean you don't like its layout etc. :)
<mpathy> hmm? its free and it has most features of photoshop, but it lacks of a ergonomic user interface.. or what did you mean?
<mpathy> and I need a programm which I can use at home without feeling guilty ;)
<derek[] > I mean.. why would you bother about the free part when you already are working in Photoshop?
<derek[] > ahh :) verstehe
<mpathy> hehe :) woher kommst du eigentlich?
<derek[] > India
<derek[] > lerne deutsch
<derek[] > parle un peu de francais
<derek[] > i russkii tozhe
<mpathy> *g*
<mpathy> good :)
<derek[] > =)
<derek[] > that's a problem with the designers using open source tools.. if they look for a full-time job, they'll have to learn the commercial tools
<derek[] > :/
<derek[] > unless they've been as lucky as you to get the chance to study in an art school
<derek[] > or they don't feel guilty at home about using something ... ;)
<derek[] > btw, are you a regular here?
<mpathy> not really study.. its more like an ordinary job.. more craft then unbridled creativity - but thats good :)
<derek[] > you studied using photoshop and macromedia products in the "academy of arts", didn't you?
* derek[]  is going out soon
<derek[] > mpathy, 
<derek[] > ?
<derek[] > talk to you later
#ubuntu-artwork 2006-09-25
<troy_s> who_
<Who_> mr troy_s: good night to you :)
<troy_s> you off whosie?
<Who_> well, I am nearly off - I have a very furstrating issue with my main media disk - I get HARD freezes, no caps/num lock and I want to fix it
<Who_> but it is time to sleep
<troy_s> eek
<troy_s> aight, chat soon
<Viper550> hello?
<Viper550> That new Usplash system is awesome
<Viper550> Hello? is anyone herE?
<fschoep> troy_s: You there?
<fschoep> My Macbook's power adapter burnt out minutes ago
<fschoep> My battery is flat and I can't get to my work / email and stuff
<fschoep> Seveas: ping?
<PingunZ> Hey fschoep, long time no seen .. :)
<fschoep> Hey PingunZ how are you doing?
<PingunZ> Fine thx ;) I haven't been quite ubuntu-active tough :)
<PingunZ> How are you doing ? :)
<fschoep> Well I was doing fine till my Macbook adapter gave up on me
<PingunZ> O_o
<fschoep> Now I don't have access to my e-mail and documents... Which is kind of unfortunate right now.
<PingunZ> Err .. how come you're on irc then .. :)
<fschoep> I have a Kubunt Breezy machine running
<PingunZ> Well .. gmail.com opens right .. ? :)
<fschoep> That was my main computer but I moved everything to the Macbook once I got it
<fschoep> gmail opens, but I don't use GMail so it doesn't help me a bit :)
<PingunZ> Ohh .. I remeber ffnn ;)
<fschoep> Yes
<fschoep> My battery is flat which is why I plugged in the adapter in the first place
<PingunZ> No online gmail-like version ? :)
<fschoep> Well I can SSH into it, but replying mail is awkward in mutt
<fschoep> There's also older mails I need which are only on the Mac HD :-|
<PingunZ> O_o That's why I always will/have used gmail.com :)
<PingunZ> No email client here :)
<PingunZ> Still have some warranty on the Apple ?
<fschoep> Sure it's three months old
<fschoep> The Macbook was only introduced three months ago ;)
<fschoep> Or something like that at least, maybe it's four months now
<PingunZ> I remember you buying it so I'd say max 3 months ..
<fschoep> :)
<fschoep> Anyway I'll be on the phone with Apple first thing in the morning tomorrow
<fschoep> Funny thing is the power adapter has black scorch marks on it now :)
<PingunZ> :)
<PingunZ> Upload some pic :)
<fschoep> Well I'm not really in the mood for that now :)
<fschoep> Hey msikma, good evening
<PingunZ> fschoep: Any chance of a grub splash quickly sneaking into edgy ?
<fschoep> PingunZ: well, it's not on my radar currently
<fschoep> PingunZ: funny you mention it because it's been outside of all of our specs and so on
<PingunZ> Oh sorry fschoep I didn't think about it .. :)
<fschoep> :-)
<fschoep> Obviously it got lost in the shuffle somewhere
<PingunZ> Well, I'll propose it for edgy +1 ;)
<fschoep> That's great ;)
<PingunZ> If my parents still allow me to use my pc rofl :p
<fschoep> Had trouble with them?
<msikma> Hi fschoep
<fschoep> Hi msikma
<fschoep> I cut up the spotlight animation
<fschoep> But as you might have read I my Macbook's adapter stopped working so I can't do anything useful like sending e-mails properlly
<fschoep> properly*
<msikma> Did it explode? :)
<fschoep> A bit
<fschoep> It went "poof" the lights flickered for a moment and there are scorch marks on it
<msikma> That's terrible
<fschoep> Yeah, also considering the nearest Mac store is more than an hour away
<fschoep> I live in the middle of nowhere so it's kind of though getting anywhere
<msikma> Ah, that's too bad. You have a backup PC?
<fschoep> Well I'm using a Kubuntu Breezy installation now
<msikma> I have a 400 MHz laptop with a really dim screen sitting next to me just in case. :P
<fschoep> But I don't have my documents or e-mails
<fschoep> Can I send you the cropped spotlight PNGs so you can get them to Dennis?
<fschoep> I did some GIMPing on this machine
<msikma> Sure, send 'em. Whatever you want me to send or forward, just dump it either via DCC or a mail to michiel@thingmajig.org
<fschoep> I think I'll have to use DCC :)
<fschoep> Let's see
<msikma> I accepted, but it's not connecting.
<msikma> Hmmmm
<fschoep> Hmm
<fschoep> msikma: Maybe try it again?
<fschoep> msikma: Ping me if you're ready
<Viper550> IS anyone here?
<Viper550> hello?
#ubuntu-artwork 2006-09-26
<joejaxx> hello all
<joejaxx> i was wondering if you all knew who did the ubuntu splash?
<troy_s> ping
<troy_s> which splash?  usplash or logon splash?
<troy_s> joejaxx?
<joejaxx> troy_s: yes
<joejaxx> the usplash
<troy_s> which one?
<troy_s> do you have a screenshot?
<troy_s> because one is a temporary placeholder
<joejaxx> troy_s: i meant the dapper one:)
<troy_s> usplash in dapper is msikma
<joejaxx> oh ok
<troy_s> all known credits are in the archives
<troy_s> of the wiki
<joejaxx> does he or she come on often?
<joejaxx> troy_s: oh i did not know that
<troy_s> he.  and yes you can contact him via the mailing list, launchpad, etc.
<joejaxx> oh alright
<joejaxx> i was just wondering because i develop Fluxbuntu and i was wondering if he could help make a splash
<joejaxx> troy_s: right now it looks like this
<joejaxx> troy_s: btw i am graphically-disinclined
<joejaxx> troy_s: http://fluxbuntu.org/usplash.png
<troy_s> i am sure he would be interested in helping you.
<joejaxx> troy_s: oh ok :)
<troy_s> he collaborated on the edgy usplash
<troy_s> but of course, most likely, all of the edgy artwork will revert to dapper's look.
<joejaxx> troy_s: oh ok
<joejaxx> i have not seen the new edgy splash actually
<Madpilot> troy_s, no new look for edgy, hmm? Too bad, but I'm not terribly surprised.
<troy_s> usplash has been revised and updated by sev eas in this channel
<troy_s> madpilot -- its a political fest.
<troy_s> i am sure there will be a last minute rush to get something out the door.
<Madpilot> this has been the art team's shakedown release; DocTeam went thru this w/ Breezy then got it's sh*t together for Dapper
<troy_s> joejaxx you know of the newer usplash implementation?
<Madpilot> then kind of slumped for Edgy... :|
<joejaxx> troy_s: no i do not
<troy_s> madpilot -- it is a little more than getting shit together.
<joejaxx> troy_s: you mean the one that supports 256 colours?
<troy_s> joejaxx yes
<troy_s> and animation
<joejaxx> wow really?
<joejaxx> is there any documentation on it?
<troy_s> joejaxx yes.  it is quite capable now.  your best information source is sev eas in this channel.
<joejaxx> ah ok
<troy_s> Madpilot -- ultimately there is one client and his aesthetic is a bit tough to locate without an extensive bit of design book citing.
<Madpilot> troy_s, true - at least documentation is a bit more objective
<troy_s> currently there are a number of issues to resolve, some of which _might_ get addressed at the next summit.
<troy_s> Madpilot well ultimately the ubuntu distribution probably needs to seriously evaluate exactly what it is.  the name, the ethics, etc, all connote a certain directionality to design -- even though there isn't a concrete outline / motif in place.
<troy_s> Madpilot further, in order to be distinctive, it is going to require an overarching style, unless everyone is happy heading into the "middle gray" school of thought.
<Madpilot> "corporate grey" :)
<troy_s> Madpilot exactly.
<Madpilot> "corporate blue" would be more accurate for desktops
<troy_s> Madpilot well blue is well overdone
<troy_s> Madpilot and anyone who attempts to bring up the "psychology of colour" should do a little research, as all research in that area has yielded completely different results.
<troy_s> colour is learned and societal.
<troy_s> well that was fun
<joejaxx> :)
<joejaxx> troy_s: you want to see two wallpapers that are included?
<troy_s> for dapper?
<troy_s> wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Archives should have them
<troy_s> or are you speaking for fluxbox?
<joejaxx> for fluxbuntu
<troy_s> oh yes... i would love to.
<joejaxx> http://fluxbuntu.org/sneakpeek.png
<joejaxx> http://fluxbuntu.org/sneakpeek2.png
<troy_s> flux is lovely.  i was a diehard blackbox fan for the longest time.
<joejaxx> :)
<troy_s> i though the default look of flux was similar to the default look of blackbox?
<troy_s> cthulhu look or whatever it was.
<joejaxx> yes that theme is called choke
<joejaxx> the default one is MEta
<joejaxx> Meta
<troy_s> choke?
<joejaxx> yes
<troy_s> joejaxx do you have anyone who is responsible for the artwork in flux?
<troy_s> because i know that there are probably a few people who are adept in the team who might enjoy tackling such a project.
<troy_s> anyways, i must be off to bed due to earlier call tomorrow.
<joejaxx> yes there are people but anyone is welcome to contribute :)
<troy_s> be good joejaxx
<joejaxx> troy_s: oh alright
<joejaxx> troy_s: yes i will
<troy_s> joejaxx contact the list
<joejaxx> troy_s: goodnight :)
<joejaxx> troy_s: ok
<troy_s> joejaxx -- pretty certain that msikma might be able to help you out a little -- even provide a derivative of the edgy usplash
<troy_s> which would be nice in terms of consistency...
<troy_s> ok.  be good.
* troy_s is out
<joejaxx> :)
<kwwii> hi
<mhb> hello fellow artworkers :o)
<fschoep> troy_s: ping
<fschoep> troy_s: if you're hiding, please come out :-)
<PingunZ> Hey fschoep How is the battery charger doing .. ?
<fschoep> PingunZ: it'll be here in three days or so :(
<fschoep> until then it's Mutt and Konversation for IRC
<fschoep> troy_s: If no one else can help, maybe you can hire the A-Team?
<joejaxx> msikma: are you currently non-idle?
<fschoep> troy_s: Come out with your hands above your head :)
<fschoep> troy_s: ping
<fschoep> troy_s: don't hide I'll be waiting here for an eternity to talk to you :)
<msikma> joejaxx: I am now.
<joejaxx> msikma: :)
<joejaxx> msikma: i am the developer of fluxbuntu and i was wondering if you could help make a usplash for us
<joejaxx> msikma: our usplashes work
<joejaxx> but the palettes are not correct
<joejaxx> fschoep: :P
<fschoep> joejaxx: Hi there :)
<joejaxx> fschoep: hello :)
<fschoep> Fluxbuntu eh/
<fschoep> I used Fluxbox for a while
<fschoep> Then I figured my machine could run KDE
<fschoep> And GNOME
<joejaxx> ah
<fschoep> But Fluxbox still attracts me somehow
<joejaxx> that is why we are here the project anyway
<fschoep> It's very lightweight
<joejaxx> fluxbuntu runs on a vast amount of computers
<joejaxx> :)
<fschoep> How is the project going?
<joejaxx> it is going quite well
<fschoep> Good to hear
<fschoep> Are you the only core dev?
<joejaxx> i am going to be releasing Revision 2 in two days
<joejaxx> fschoep: i am the lead developer but there are others on the development team
<fschoep> I see
<fschoep> Do you have a project page (too lazy to search right now) ?
<joejaxx> fluxbuntu.org
<fschoep> I should've known :)
<joejaxx> :)
<fschoep> Ah, nice site - very lightweight as well with the whites and greens
<joejaxx> thanks
<joejaxx> yes it is
<fschoep> Who created the design?
<joejaxx> it survived a digg effect
<fschoep> Whoa :)
<joejaxx> fschoep: it is an open source design i picked it out to compliment the lightwieghtness of fluxbuntu
<fschoep> I see, good choice though
<fschoep> Have you considered tweaking the CSS a bit?
<joejaxx> which parts?
<fschoep> The light green link color should be a tad bit darker to improve readability
<joejaxx> interesting
<joejaxx> i will take that into consideration
<joejaxx> i will change that tonight
<fschoep> I usually use a tool to evaluate such things:
<fschoep> http://www.snook.ca/technical/colour_contrast/colour.html
<joejaxx> wow thanks
<fschoep> No problem, don't spend too much time twiddling with the colors, your distribution is what counts :)
<fschoep> For reference, your background is FFFFFF and the link color itself is "8cd749"
<fschoep> Enter it and see the result :)
<fschoep> You might want to try the websafe #009900 color for the link
<fschoep> Anyway, let's get to the interesting part
<fschoep> Do you have some screenshots up?
<joejaxx> fschoep: yes
<joejaxx> for the new one
<joejaxx> http://fluxbuntu.org/sneakpeek.png & sneakpeek2.png
<joejaxx> the default is the second one
<joejaxx> but the firstone is included also
<joejaxx> first one*
<joejaxx> wallpaper wise i mean
<fschoep> Looking good!
<fschoep> I notice icons on the desktop, is that a new feature in Fluxbox?
<joejaxx> no
<joejaxx> that is rox
<fschoep> I see
<joejaxx> and to make an icon on there
<joejaxx> all you do it drag sometihng to there
<joejaxx> fschoep: it can be turned off if it is not to your liking
<fschoep> Oh, I think I'd like it
<joejaxx> :)
<fschoep> I always tweaked my menu file to have apps right in my menu when I opened it, but this is nice as well
<joejaxx> well the menu updates in fluxbuntu
<fschoep> I used Fluxbox at release 0.9.7 I think
<joejaxx> like for the alpha rev1 release i installed firefox and it came up in my menu afterwards
<joejaxx> fschoep: oh ok
<fschoep> Auto menu updates is nice, my distribution (I think Mandrake 8.2 or so) didn't have that at the time for Fluxbox :)
<joejaxx> :)
<fschoep> troy_s: Are you there by chance?
<fschoep> msikma: Are you there?
<fschoep> Seveas: Are you there?
<fschoep> I seem a bit desperate for a chat, but this is normal, folks :)
<joejaxx> fschoep: i think everyone is away at the current moment :\
<fschoep> You're here, right ;) ?
<joejaxx> yeah :)
<joejaxx> i am just in alot of channels
<joejaxx> ~40
<fschoep> That's a lot indeed, I'm only in here
<joejaxx> all on different servers
<joejaxx> fschoep: :)
<fschoep> Whoa and you're not going insane?
<joejaxx> nope lol
<fschoep> When I started in July I hated IRC
<fschoep> I'm getting used to it slowly
<fschoep> I might start to like it even
<joejaxx> fschoep: :)
<fschoep> troy_s: I know it's the other way around usually, but if you have a few minutes...
#ubuntu-artwork 2006-09-27
<fschoep> troy_s: ping
<joejaxx> :(
<fschoep> joejaxx: do you want to chat?
<joejaxx> sure
<joejaxx> about what?
<fschoep> No idea
<joejaxx> lol
<joejaxx> think of something lol
<fschoep> I just said something because you posted that smiley
<joejaxx> oh :\
<fschoep> I don't necessarily want to chat, I'm waiting for troy_s
<fschoep> :)
<joejaxx> oh ok :)
<fschoep> You go and find some entertainment in another channel ;)
<fschoep> I'm going to do some stuff
<fschoep> :)
<fschoep> troy_s: I'm sitting, waiting, wishing
<fschoep> troy_s: ping
<fschoep> troy_s: I'll be back in about twenty minutes, at the changing of the hour
<Viper550> Does anyone here have SVG source code for the "close" button in the Human icon set?
<fschoep> troy_s: ping
<fschoep> troy_s: last ping probably, it's about 1:15 here and I'm thinking of sleeping
<fschoep> troy_s: really
<joejaxx> maybe he is just afk
<fschoep> Really?
<fschoep> I didn't think of that ;)
<joejaxx> lol ;)
<fschoep> troy_s uses a bouncer so he's always online
<joejaxx> ah
<fschoep> And I'm in the Netherlands and he's in Canada or so so we don't meet a lot on IRC
<fschoep> but I could use his advice right now
<fschoep> troy_s: last try, then I'm off to bed
<fschoep> troy_s: ?
<fschoep> troy_s: hope to catch you tomorrow, good night though (it's 02:00 now)
<Viper550> Does anyone have an SVG of the Human close icon?
<fschoep> troy_s: ping
<effraie> hello
<fschoep> troy_s: ping
<fschoep> effraie: hello
<troy_s> fschoep
<troy_s> here for  second
<fschoep> troy_s: OK a second is enough
<klepas> good evening
<klepas> or morning/afternoon as the case might be :)
<lapo> hi
<effraie> hello
<effraie> is the wiki accessible for you? (not for me, but FF talk me about psm, so maybe it's a bug in edgy)
<effraie> is somebody here?
<effraie> is somebody here?
<joejaxx> i am here
<joejaxx> effraie: ping?
<effraie> hello
<joejaxx> hello
<effraie> can browse the wiki now?
<joejaxx> can i have your opinion on something
<joejaxx> what wiki?
<effraie> wiki.ubuntu.com
<effraie> yes, you can ;)
<joejaxx> yes it works for me
<joejaxx> effraie: what do you think of this ?
<joejaxx> http://fluxbuntu.usplash.png
<effraie> the url is wrong
<joejaxx> whoops lol
<joejaxx> http://fluxbuntu.org/usplash.png
<effraie> look good
<effraie> but, why do you not use new usplash capabilities?
<joejaxx> effraie: i have not upgraded fluxbuntu to dapper yet
<joejaxx> i mean
<joejaxx> edgy
<joejaxx> since there is still a month before it releases
<effraie> of course
<effraie> would fluxbuntu be available for ppc?
<effraie> can browse the wiki now?
<joejaxx> effraie: we are developing a PowerPC version
<effraie> cool
<joejaxx> effraie: what browser are you using?
<joejaxx> mozilla?
<effraie> firefox 2.02 (on edgy)
<joejaxx> effraie: oh i have no idea about that
<joejaxx> effraie: i do not use edgy as of the moment
<effraie> but can you browse it, or not?
<joejaxx> yes i can
<effraie> thanx
<joejaxx> you are most welcome
<fschoep> cbx33: ping
<cbx33> fschoep, pong pong pong
<cbx33> got some new ol buddy
<fschoep> cbx33: I sent off an e-mail to Mark
<cbx33> fschoep, recall it
<fschoep> cbx33: oh dear
<fschoep> cbx33: that's unfortunate
<cbx33> see my pm
<cbx33> for the reason
<fschoep> in pm
<fschoep> troy_s: are you around by chance?
#ubuntu-artwork 2006-09-28
<Viper550> Anyone here?
<effraie> troy_s: ping
<effraie> i've updated the wiki page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/EffraiePanel whit other panel colors
<troy_s> msikma
<troy_s> you in my brother?
<klepas> hey troy_s
<troy_s> hey pas
<troy_s> how are you klepas ?
<klepas> doing good
<klepas> yourself?
<ppd> troy_s: hi. perhaps you remember me. I am that guy who asked you for your wallpapers from the edgy proposal page. at that time you told me to wait until the edgy release. now we are close to the release and as far as I know a final wallpaper was chosen for edgy. now my question: would it be possible to get your wallpapers right now?
<ppd> :)
<troy_s> i am very busy right now ppd
<troy_s> but i believe they are somewhere on that wiki
<ppd> but only the thumbnails
<troy_s> hrm... i will look
<ppd> that would be great. thanks
<troy_s> email me again and i will see if i can get one back to you.
<ppd> I will. thank you very very much
<effraie> troy_s & famous mercury blobs : D
<troy_s> ugh
<troy_s> well... trying to get _something_ that sab can approve in the next _very_ brief moment.
<troy_s> which is damn tough
<effraie> oups, i made a mistake.. mercury_blobs are from who..
<troy_s> yep
<troy_s> those are whosies...
<troy_s> nightmarish designing for a moving target.
<troy_s> but such is our fate.
<effraie> something strange with the list:
<troy_s> what?
<effraie> i send 2 emails in the morning, and never recived them
<troy_s> the list by default prevents you from getting your own posts i think
<troy_s> somewhere in your config.
<troy_s> but let me see if i got them... what were the subject lines?
<effraie> i still configured it to received my own mails
<troy_s> hrm... panel backgrounds?
<troy_s> i have two from you regarding panel backgrounds on the list
<effraie> today?
<effraie> one biginning with "
<effraie> Hello all
<effraie>  i've update the page with other panel colors, but it's quite shure the
<effraie> white is the best."
<effraie> and the other with "
<effraie> i'm fat to be a specialist of gtk artwork."
<effraie> i'm far to be a specialist of gtk artwork."
#ubuntu-artwork 2006-09-29
<Burgundavia> who is the moderator the mailing list?
<lapo> hi
<effraie> ho
<effraie> ;)
<sabdfl> hey guys
<AnAnt> I have an opinion but I dunno if it is appropriate to say it or not
<AnAnt> the splash screen in dapper looked better in my opinion
<AnAnt> the only thing I like in Edgy's splash screen is the progress bar
<nixternal> http://documentation.openoffice.org/contests/template_clipart_2006/announce.html
<nixternal> clipart contest, $5k in prizes if you are interested
#ubuntu-artwork 2006-09-30
<Viper550> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Specs/EdgyArtworkPlan/Produce/Incoming/Viper550
<Viper550> Has anyone seen the new Usplash theme I made?
#ubuntu-artwork 2006-10-01
<Viper550> kwwii is back?! Yay!
<kwwii> yeah, /me is back from Ireland
<Viper550> I noticed Kubuntu 6.10 Beta looks very awesome
<kwwii> did a bit of work on a kubuntu kmenu icon while I was there
<kwwii> Viper550: thanks :-)
<Viper550> Cool, everything is looking great...but at first I thought the panel background was mine!
<kwwii> yeah, it was really based on yours
<kwwii> the same idea
<kwwii> I tried to make it a bit softer
<kwwii> not sure if there is a real difference, in the end
<Viper550> Oh...mine wasn't soft enough?
<kwwii> well, when I look at them that is the impression I get, perhaps I am silly though
<kwwii> I spent a week on a bunkbed
<kwwii> quite tired
<Viper550> Yeah, bunkbeds do that to you :P
<kwwii> Viper550: what do you think about turning on the "colorize to bg color" option?
<kwwii> dude, I am 35 with an 8 year old child, I do not need a bunkbed
<Viper550> That's another option I've been looking at/promoting, not many distros enable it on their KDE, would give us some originality
<kwwii> from what I have heard so far, people like it colorized
<kwwii> I think we should try it out
<Viper550> Yeah, I even use mine colorized, since it colors along with the color scheme used, it will complete our purple makeover!
<Viper550> still there?
<kwwii> sorry, in the bathroom
<kwwii> hehe, yeah
<kwwii> it is actually a blue color, but in the darker colors it looks purplle
<Viper550> Oh yeah, I still think that offical Usplash for Kubuntu is nice!
<kwwii> I have seen many computers where it looks more blue
<kwwii> I think we could still make the Usplash a bit neaer
<kwwii> neater
<kwwii> I though about makng the same lines as the wallpaper only set on a black bg, mainly tranparent
<Viper550> hmm...
<kwwii> I would like to use the wallpaper in the usplash, but with the logo and progress bar it is too many colors
<kwwii> well, really, even without the logo and the progress bar it is too many colors
<Viper550> hello andreasn
<kwwii> andreasn: I have a small movement of people dedicated to migrating to the freedesktop naming spec for kde4 and plans are underway :-)
* kwwii is going to sleep now...see you all later
<kwwii> night
<Viper550> Not many people have been submitting stuff into the Polish phase...only one...me! https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Specs/EdgyArtworkPlan/Polish/Incoming
<bersace> Hello all !
<bersace> troy_s: ping
<troy_s> go bersace
<bersace> troy_s: wait a minute
<bersace> troy_s: re
<troy_s> greetings openstandards
<troy_s> interesting handle
<OpenStandards> Hi :)
<OpenStandards> troy_s, do you know the link to where I can find the ubuntu colour scemes?
<troy_s> well... i would love to say yes
<troy_s> there are 'official' colours
<troy_s> but they are not adhered to in _any_ respect
<troy_s> are you referring to dapper?
<troy_s> the current jumbled up mess in dapper has no consistency what so ever, so you could basically sample the bits and use them.
<troy_s> the logo HAS been implemented consistently
<OpenStandards> just the offical colour set
<troy_s> and the colours are located in http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Official
<troy_s> again though, don't expect seamless integration with the other colours as there has been _zero_ design adherence in dapper on that.
<OpenStandards> ok then
<troy_s> the logo colours _are_ adhered to
<troy_s> regarding the circle of friends colours
<troy_s> but that is where the consistency stops unfortunately.
<troy_s> we tried to establish somewhat of a more consistent palette approach for edgy, but that is going to be reverted to the dapper look.
<OpenStandards> will a different palette be used in the future?
<troy_s> i am trying to convince mark to do this
<troy_s> but first i think the trust relationship needs to develop with some folks.
<troy_s> don't expect it in the short term (6 months)
<OpenStandards> i'm surpised he hasn't gone with an idea of seasons
<troy_s> i like that idea too.
<troy_s> but effectively, the aesthetic is all over the board
<troy_s> and there exists a serious discontinuity between the primary elements (gdm/icons/wallpaper/etc)
<troy_s> which, hopefully, we can work towards resolving.
<troy_s> unfortunately, the attempts from this cycle have failed to meet his acceptance.
<OpenStandards> whats happening will the guidelines be simular to tango in the future
<troy_s> well i would like to see clearer guidelines than even tango's
<troy_s> that said, there needs to be an agreement on a fundamental set of issues like palette, motifs, etc.
<troy_s> which currently there isn't.
<troy_s> there are three primary avenues to achieving visual harmony
<troy_s> colour, thematic, and repetition
<OpenStandards> you british?
<troy_s> thus far, ubuntu meets exactly _zero_ of those requirements.
<troy_s> no
<OpenStandards> you spelt colour like a brit :)
<troy_s> (with the exception being that a good subset of the icons meet the repetition element)
<troy_s> (and colour)
<troy_s> yes i am canadian
<troy_s> so we spell several words in the british derivative.
<troy_s> do you develop work OpenStandards ?
<OpenStandards> well looking to
<troy_s> is your handle registered with nickserv?
<OpenStandards> yeah it is
<troy_s> i must head out
<troy_s> feel free to email me to discuss things further
<troy_s> ok?
<OpenStandards> will do, thanks
<fschoep> troy_s_: ping
<troy_s_> fschoep
<troy_s_> ping
<fschoep> yo yo
<fschoep> troy_s_: pong
<fschoep> troy_s_: got some minutes?
<troy_s_> how are you my brother?
<troy_s_> shawarma thank the team
<troy_s_> unfortunately, it won't be in edgy
<shawarma> troy_s_: Huh? What are "they" putting in instead?
<fschoep> troy_s_: I'm doing fine, thanks
<fschoep> troy_s_: you?
<troy_s_> shawarma -- long story
<troy_s_> fschoep fine thank you
<fschoep> shawarma: troy_s_ is this about what I think it is?
<troy_s_> just had daughters birthday party.
<fschoep> Sounds great :-)
<shawarma> fschoep: I just /msg'ed troy_s_ saying that I thought the gdm screen in current edgy if bloody awesome.
<troy_s_> shawarma -- meet fschoep the Artist In Chief for edgy -- but he is more of an ambassador for mark.
<fschoep> Pleased to meet you
<shawarma> likewise
<troy_s_> there have been quite a few polishes... but they haven't been committed to the repositories yet.
<troy_s_> i should probably change the topic to the current link frank put up.
<fschoep> Indeed
<troy_s_> hold on
<fschoep> Please do
<troy_s_> wtf
<fschoep> What's up my brother?
<fschoep> Can't set topic title because your nick is changed?
<troy_s_> grr
<troy_s_> looks like they reset a bunch of garbage
<fschoep> Can you rejoin with your normal nick?
<troy_s_> ahh
<troy_s_> i see.
<fschoep> Oh dear, it wasn't me?
<fschoep> Right.
<fschoep> That's better
<fschoep> I think
* mode/#ubuntu-artwork [+o troy_s]  by ChanServ
<fschoep> Ah, dand
<fschoep> dandy
<shawarma> ...so.. if the gdm screen in current Edgy is not going to be in edgy when it releases.. what is?
<fschoep> shawarma: a brand new design
<troy_s> basically nothing will change
<troy_s> fundamentally
<shawarma> fschoep: Can it be seen anywhere?
<fschoep> shawarma: inspired by Dapper's version, updated to reflect some new visuals
<fschoep> shawarma: it's being created as we speak
<fschoep> fschoep: well, it should be being created as we speak
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-artwork:troy_s] : As usual -- last minute art if you are interested -- the guidelines for submissions are here:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Specs/EdgyArtworkPlan/Polish/Directions -- follow them closely if you are going to invest time.
<shawarma> FWIW, when I saw the current one, I was totally blown away.
<troy_s> i can tell you i won't be bothering
<fschoep> That sounds a bit too jaded I think
<troy_s> i just don't have the time of late
<troy_s> this show is gearing up into full bore
<fschoep> I can understand
<troy_s> and i have tried to negotiate the issues
<troy_s> which fundamentally end up back where we started
<fschoep> Yes, but nobody is pointing a finger towards you Troy, you did an excellent job.
<troy_s> i am not concerned about myself actually
<troy_s> i don't mind any of the effort.  i was more hopeful to look at the overarching design concerns and _try_ to address them in a more professional, sophisticated manner.
<shawarma> will troy's design at least be available as well?
<troy_s> unfortunately, it will take more time
<troy_s> and the politicking is a little nightmarish
<troy_s> i simply don't have time for it.
<fschoep> I know, I'm sorry it ultimately came down to that
<troy_s> needless to say, i have drafted an art director from my industry to help out on ubun2 as well.
<fschoep> shawarma: it'll probably be around, yes
<fschoep> troy_s: sounds large scale all of a sudden?
* mode/#ubuntu-artwork [-o troy_s]  by troy_s
<troy_s> well...
<troy_s> the best way to illustrate how something _should_ be done, is to do it.
<fschoep> I can't argue with tat
<fschoep> that*
<troy_s> :)
<troy_s> i am simply unwilling to mire more professional folks in the process
<troy_s> when the demonstrated path of design is characteristically crippled.
<troy_s> unfortunate, but i can't waste their time.
<troy_s> i don' t mind wasting mine because i am committed to what Ubuntu is.
<fschoep> Yes
<shawarma> Urgh... I didn't mean to shake the bee hive.. :-)
<troy_s> shawarma it wasn't you my friend.
<fschoep> shawarma: I think it was already shaken up :)
<troy_s> shawarma you just popped in at the turning point
<troy_s> i really hope someone will step up and design what mark wants.
<troy_s> who has some time.
<fschoep> I have time
<fschoep> jmak is doing some designs as well
<troy_s> i am pretty confident that there will be a decent team behind the ubun2 project.
<shawarma> ubun2?
<troy_s> i have several professional folks interested thus far, the missing components will be the technological end.
<troy_s> which i hope to draft seveas on.
<troy_s> wow
<troy_s> http://suissacomputers.com/
<fschoep_> troy_s: ping
<fschoep_> troy_s: Hello?
<troy_s> howdy
<troy_s> you get that last link?
<troy_s> http://suissacomputers.com/
<troy_s> gee...
<troy_s> not at all like the six designers were talking about.
<fschoep_> Can anyone see my messages?
<fschoep_> Allo allo?
<troy_s> fschoep_ you there?
<fschoep_> troy_s: I think so
<fschoep_> Allo allo?
<troy_s> see if you can get yoru fschoep back
<troy_s> quit and rejoin
<fschoep_> Right
<fschoep> Allo?
<fschoep> troy_s: ping?
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-09-24
<lassegs> nothlit: but people dont really care if its included as long as it isnt on by default.
<nothlit> lassegs: we can start laying out the structure for hardy's wiki pages
<nothlit> and post forum links directing people on how to contribute etc
<lassegs> nothlit: yeah, lets do that. then make some forum posts and maybe a digg post etc
<nothlit> one thing i would like, is to see art.ubuntu.com be repurposed and a bit revamped
<lassegs> nothlit: but it must be very clear from the beggining, who will ultimatly deside, that blue wont be considered and so forth
<`23meg> lassegs, here's what we can do: 1) Someone from the Forum Ambassadors team posts all incoming artwork to the forums 2) people comment on the incoming artwork, and are given a set of guidelines of constructive criticism 3) Those comments that are valid and useful by these guidelines are relayed or summarized to the mailing list or wiki, or their owners are told to post them to the mailing list or wiki
<lassegs> nothlit: so kwwii must be agreeing to this and keep an eye on it.
<`23meg> all of this happens in real time, starting well before the deadlines
<lassegs> `23meg: great stuff.
<`23meg> I'm leader of the forum ambassadors team and can assist in this
<lassegs> this is what we need to be thinking about.
<kwwii> re, shortly...I totally agree with the ideas just mentioned and am *really* glad to see people stepping up and taking responsibility...I'll give my utmost support when, where and how possible
<lassegs> `23meg: but we must expand this to more than ubuntuforums as well.
<Misosaki> Hi, first time in direct contact with everyone, hope you're all well. (Please carry on, I'll just listen in the bg.)
<`23meg> kwwii, nice to hear your support
* kwwii needs to turn off the audio bell on the irc client - it keeps interupting my movie!
<lassegs> kwwii: great kwwii im sorry i wasnt clear from the start
<`23meg> goodbye kwwii :)
<`23meg> lassegs, to where else should it be expanded?
<kwwii> lassegs: quite a few people have mentioned "good ideas" but without some help from the community it is simply not possible for me to do everything alone and at the same time do so much artwork
<lassegs> kwwii: we want to make your life easier to get artwork better :)
<kwwii> realize that I do kubuntu, ubuntu mobile, help on edubuntu, etc. as well
<kwwii> not to mention that I am kde art maintainer and oxygen founder
<lassegs> `23meg: as you say it should be contributed ubuntuforums, but we need to pull in people from digg, slashdot and other places ubuntu users hang out.
<lassegs> kwwii: we really are aware that you have lots to do. We can do the dirty work but you must overlook it.
<kwwii> lassegs: I would be happy to do so
<lassegs> `23meg: contributed _through_ ubuntuforums
<`23meg> lassegs, I'm not sure we need *that* wide an audience, but the UF thread will definitely get dugg and perhaps slashdotted automatically anyway, so..
<nothlit> kwwii: is launchpad going to be used more for the next cycle? or can i downplay its importance on the wiki page
<lassegs> `23meg: yeah
<kwwii> nothlit: launchpad will always be the main place for specs, code, bugs, etc
<`23meg> kwwii, fully understood. I'll notify the FA team about this and we'll work together once it's Hardy time
<kwwii> `23meg: excellent
<nothlit> kwwii: as in for the concept art process, rather than just getting miscellaneous bugs
<kwwii> we will start work in about a month, I want a full 6 month cycle this time to get things right
<lassegs> kwwii: that sounds great
<lassegs> how about we schedule a meeting for this?
<lassegs> to get all the important people to attend?
<lassegs> imo this should be open from the start, so we set the trend
<kwwii> lassegs: the best time to do such a meeting would be during the UDS at the end of october
<kwwii> lassegs: we can create a spec on launchpad describing how we will improve things, etc
<lassegs> kwwii: ok, so locally offline, or local and online?
<lassegs> kwwii: im new to this .)
<kwwii> lassegs: all the meeting should be online and per VIOP accesable
<kwwii> so we could set up an irc meeting or prefferable a VOIP session
<kwwii> if that does not work we can still do it per email
<kwwii> but I would prefer to have a live commentary
<lassegs> kwwii: cool, i was thinking damn, i dont have money to fly to some conference.
<kwwii> lassegs: if I would have seen this coming I could have invited a few people to the conference (all expenses paid)
<kwwii> until now there has been very few people who were interested to this degree
<`23meg> kwwii, is sponsorship still available for UDS?
<kwwii> most people want to submit a "I do not like this" or "I think this is great" and much little else
<`23meg> true
<kwwii> `23meg: perhaps, if I can be really persuasive with good reasoning
<kwwii> officialy the invitations are already done, but if I know that we can really achieve something perhaps I can add one or two people
<lassegs> kwwii: wasnt this tried for dapper as well? we should collect their experiences and learn from that.
<lassegs> kwwii: you were on kubuntu at taht time, right?
<nothlit> kwwii: the seam carving resizes the image based on content, takes the path of least resistance, so you can change the aspect ratio without distorting or harming the image contents
<`23meg> kwwii, on second thought, I'll be too busy with my thesis to attend, unfortunately. I hope I can make it next time.
<lassegs> or maybe they had another thing going, I dont remember anymore.
<lassegs> i would love to go, of course i would have to prove myself worthy
<lassegs> *first
<kwwii> lassegs: yes, I was doing kubuntu for dapper and the results from the UDS after that were not so impressive
<nothlit> kwwii: are there any artwork interested attendees of UDS at all?
<lassegs> kwwii: yeah, i seem to recall that.
* `23meg has to go
<`23meg> see you all
<kwwii> perhaps the best way to sort this would be to have an irc meeting as soon as possible (with a list of topics posted in advance)
<kwwii> `23meg: see you
<lassegs> `23meg: great input man
<`23meg> thanks ;)
<lassegs> kwwii: that was what i was thinking, something should outline this a litte more before UDS
<kwwii> `23meg: stay in touch, perhaps we can improve things
<nothlit> `23meg: great reporting to the forums btw
<kwwii> lassegs: put together some ideas and we can discuss this tomorrow and set up a meeting asap
<`23meg> kwwii, will do; I'll be in the channel from now on
<lassegs> great. ill see you here tomorrow, we'll talk then.
<kwwii> `23meg:  would you have time for a meeting soon?
<`23meg> nothlit, one more post coming :)
<`23meg> kwwii, sure
<kwwii> cool, let's keep in touch on this
<`23meg> will do :) goodbye..
<Ludwik> I have to say I'm impressed with the way you handle this. In most communities such controversy would only result in people on both sides being angry. You chose to use it as an opportunity to improve.
<kwwii> I am pretty much always in chat (except for the weekends)
<kwwii> Ludwik: that is the only way to move forward
<Ludwik> right :)
<kwwii> I have to say that I somewhat intended this controversy to see if I could provoke people to step up and take action
<kwwii> I could have just posted the non-pixelated lighter version (aka original) pic to begin with :-)
<nothlit> LOL
<nothlit> thats why you darkened it
<lassegs> yeah, this sounds a little fishy :D
<lassegs> if thats the case, job well done
<lassegs> im going to bed. see you tomorrow guys.
<kwwii> see you soon, i hope
<lassegs> no worries :P
<kwwii> sleep well
* kwwii finished the movie he stopped a thousand times
<kwwii> and then sleeps
<nothlit> cyas, close irc lol
<Misosaki> Does anyone happen to know what's next on the task list (if anything) after the wallpaper?
<nothlit> afaik, it starts with the wallpaper as a concept
<nothlit> and bleeds into gdm, gnome splash etc
<nothlit> there are also icons, you should speak to the tango enthusiasts about that
<Misosaki> Are gdm drafts being accepted yet, seeing as the wallpaper question is about ... decided?
<Misosaki> wb
<nothlit> the artwork deadline has passed already
<nothlit> everything is locked down for gutsy
<Misosaki> Hi Damianvila, good work on the walls
<damianvila> Thanks!
<troy_s> The elephant wallpaper, is a no brainer.
<damianvila> Hi troy!
<damianvila> And Lasse!
<troy_s> Greets damianvila
<nothlit> damianvila: nice work
<damianvila> Thanks everybody
<troy_s> I said it when I saw it.  It has a very interesting 'awe' component.  It is also almost abstract enough to connote broken cracked earth.  It is very organic.  And well... it works.
<Ludwik> I like the Lion one, but the elephant wallpaper as an official Ubuntu alternative wallpaper is also a good thing :)
<damianvila> I'm writing to the forum now, to calm down people
<Misosaki> Nothlit: Will there be any changes to the gdm, etc. for Gutsy, then? The wallpaper has just been finalised, so if there are to be changes, then they preceeded w/o the wallpaper?
<troy_s> That said, even with elephant as a base, it would require a _real_ bloody palette to round it out.  Sync up the GDM / GTK, and poof.
<troy_s> A days work.
<troy_s> Misosaki: It's more or less a done deal.
<damianvila> Yeah Troy, I know...
<troy_s> damianvila: It also has a very workable motif.
<Misosaki> Ah. Thanks nothlit and troy_s.
<troy_s> damianvila: It gets a severe +1 from me.  I said it the moment I saw it.  Lion and the other are a little too "Africany" from my vantage.  Elephant is abstract enough to work wonderfully.
<damianvila> I just don't get people questioning the art team
<troy_s> (Mind you the blue is problematic of course.)
<troy_s> damianvila: There _is no art team_
<troy_s> damianvila: There never has been.
<troy_s> damianvila: There never will be.
<troy_s> damianvila: Unless you are speaking of k wwii (to not ping him during sleep) and sabdfl.
<nothlit> he quit
<damianvila> who quit?
<nothlit> 07:03:42 -!- kwwii [n=kwwii@p54956F6C.dip.t-dialin.net]  has quit Remote closed the connection
<damianvila> Oh!
<damianvila> Nevertheles
<troy_s> I might add that I have also stated quite openly that transparency is rather vital.  Hopefully this will come back to haunt all once again.
<damianvila> It was clear to me from the beggining how things worked
<Misosaki> Transparency, possibly, but also more publicity.
<damianvila> I remember seeing the announcement that Ken was the person who made the decision about artwork from Feisty onwards...
<troy_s> It is also why not many with any experience in the Ubuntu world bother.
<troy_s> It has been a load of tripe from the beginning.
<Misosaki> So ... one person has always been given the role of making UI decisions?
<damianvila> Just artwork I believe
<Misosaki> Sorry, UI meant here in terms of themes, visuals
<damianvila> Yeah
<nothlit> the ubuntu founder doesn't much trust the community in terms of artwork
<damianvila> Well, it's difficult to get a consensus about graphic design...
<troy_s> damianvila: We should round out elephant into a proper full blown theme.
<troy_s> damianvila: Locate a suitable palette, shift it into the tonal range, and provide a GDM / usplash for it.
<troy_s> damianvila: Ship me a high resolution version of the plain texture.
<troy_s> damianvila: And I'll see what I can do.
<troy_s> Misosaki: and yes... it ultimately comes down to sabdfl and his hiring
<troy_s> damianvila: Can you do that?
<troy_s> damianvila: I'll do a stair interpolation on the highest resolution version you have and use it as a starting point.
<damianvila> troy: there's a hi-res version here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Animals
<Misosaki> Any chance of something similar for the lion, or will that be too redundant? :)
<Misosaki> Would try if there is anything needing help
<damianvila> I have no experience creating whole themes... :-P
<damianvila> Both the lion and the elephant were created in a similar way
<damianvila> But the lion is reddish, so, it's a different palette
<Misosaki> Well, the lion texture is a bit softer, though it's understandable if people don't like reddish/brown
<damianvila> But I agree that, given the good reception, something like this: http://people.redhat.com/dfong/fc7graphics/ needs to be made...
<damianvila> Misosaki: at the forums it was like 50/50 between the lion and the elephant...
<damianvila> And the Kubuntu people loved the blue elephant
<Misosaki> There's some demand for landscape scenes ... but they just have to be vivid and high-res or it'll easily look sloppy
<damianvila> The problem with very detailed landscapes is that they tend to make noise
* Misosaki nods
<damianvila> I have lots of landscape wallpapers I love, but the ones that works best are the dull ones
<Misosaki> Dull? In colour?
<damianvila> Yep
<damianvila> You see: wallpapers, besides being decoration, needs to "hold" icons. You want the eye to quickly fin the icon you are looking for
<damianvila> Most people tend to group icons around the borders
<Misosaki> B/w anyone? lol
<damianvila> That's why all of my wallpapers are darker at the border
<damianvila> lol
<Misosaki> Well, let's say in Fedora's case -- what do you all like (or dislike) about the things in that link?
<damianvila> There where lots of good wallpapers at the wiki, but I liked the ones by Ken, Troy and Lasse because I thought those were the ones better suited for a desktop use
<damianvila> I love the overall idea of Fedora
<damianvila> It's calm yet interesting
<Misosaki> Are we aiming for something similar with Ubuntu? What are we aiming for?
<damianvila> Maybe you can't put lots of icons on the right side
<damianvila> I don't know... lol
<damianvila> I'm totally lost :-P
<damianvila> I just wanted to give Ubuntu something unique and original, but usable
<nothlit> i think there are plans for discussions
<nothlit> starting tomorrow
<damianvila> That wold be great
<damianvila> *would
<troy_s> The lion is simply a little too heavy thematically.
<troy_s> It has a less of an abstract / leather feel
<troy_s> it has strong ties with African motifs (which localizes Ubuntu a little too strongly in my estimation)
<Misosaki> Yeah, but some people might not savour the feel of leather
<troy_s> Misosaki: Doesn't matter.
<troy_s> Misosaki: You will always be dealing with percentages.
<troy_s> Misosaki: The point I am simply trying to make is that the connotations with a lion's fur is probably stronger along African lines, which -- while a completely acceptable design choice -- probably is a little more 'restricted' than the elephant's texture.
<troy_s> Misosaki: I have from day one been stressing that organics works for Ubuntu.  It is both a clear alternative to the glassy plastics out there for the two mainstreams and it works well from a more philosophical vantage.
<Misosaki> It matters, but it's fine, because the sampling of opinions from the forums (however small), is as Damianvila said 50/50 on the two
<troy_s> damianvila: Do you have the source texture before colorizing?
<damianvila> Yes. It's a Photoshop file. 3 or 4 layers
<troy_s> Misosaki: It is a delicate walk.  You don't want to suddenly head into 'animal hell'.
<troy_s> Misosaki: You want to connote the organic without being utterly literal.
<troy_s> damianvila: Can you email me?
<damianvila> Yeap
<troy_s> damianvila: I would even take your source textures
<troy_s> damianvila: As it appears a subtle blurring of several considering that those creases don't happen like that naturally on an elephant ;)
<damianvila> Let me make a package and I'll put it on my site...
<troy_s> Misosaki: It is unfortunate, but I have been trying to get people to seeing the upside of a true brainstorming portion of design development.
<troy_s> Misosaki: When damianvila presented elephant, it had that "that's the direction" feeling for me (and apparently a few others).
<troy_s> Misosaki: The extremely unfortunate side of things is that kwwii posted the 'should be similar to' images, and not one really even came close.
<Misosaki> And the wall will be placed into an entirely new theme, or will it be expected to work with the human theme?
<Misosaki> Because the wall obviously doesn't exist alone ... there are icons and other elements, some of which tend towards a certain palette or shape
<damianvila> Looks like Troy had a problem...
<Misosaki> Oops
<Misosaki> wb
<troy_s> damn lynching.  might have a memory problem.
<troy_s> grr.
<damianvila> :-)
<troy_s> damianvila: So if you could ship those texture sources, it would be great.
<troy_s> I'll see if we can work on rounding it out a little.
<damianvila> Ouch!, 44MB each tar... :-P might take a while to upload...
<troy_s> other things to consider might be how linework will be presented
<troy_s> etc
* Misosaki nods
<troy_s> out for a while boyz.
<damianvila> As I said, I love what Diana made and how it was presented...
<Misosaki> Okay, see you
<damianvila> See you Troy
<nothlit> i think we're all diana fanboys/girls
<damianvila> :-)
<damianvila> We should make the "Diana Fong's fanclub" lol
<Misosaki> Hi there
<Misosaki> lols
<damianvila> Hi Alex
<Misosaki> Would be nice if there were more complete docs on the whole process -- who the leader(s) are and what currently needs work, for instance. (The artwork and getinvolved pages aren't very detailed about it.)
<damianvila> Well, I submitted the images because, I believe Ken, asked for it. I never contributed to other Open Source project. Being a designer, I find it rather chaotic...
<Misosaki> When the public wants to know about progress and major deadlines, they shouldn't have to go through scores of IRC transcripts to find out.
<damianvila> Maybe because most people don't know Ken's the one with the final decision
<Misosaki> Yeah
<damianvila> Frankly, I fond it strage that he was asking for artwork
<damianvila> *found
<Misosaki> Well, it's one thing to have someone in charge of the decision-making, but at least if there's a call for proposals, to please give designers betterdocs and a better idea of what is being sought
<Misosaki> So it's not usual to call for artwork?
<Misosaki> Hi there
<nekiruhs> Hey
<damianvila> No if there's a person appointed to do the work...
<nothlit> for larger distros afaik theres usually someone in charge
<damianvila> Hi nekiruhs
<nekiruhs> Hi
<Misosaki> But the person is just doing the decision-making, or overseeing the design process, not the actual designing?
<Misosaki> Hi
<damianvila> As I  understood it, kwwii was in charge of the artwork. I remember seeing something in the lines of "the official artwork will be made by kwwii, so do not submit proposals for Ubuntu", or something like that
<Misosaki> Really? In the wiki or the forum?
<damianvila> I think it was in the wiki
<nothlit> its in the wiki
<nothlit> that was for feisty iirc
<nothlit> damianvila: sabdfl (Mark Shuttleworth, founder of ubuntu) has the final say of what is default
<damianvila> nothlit: I know
<damianvila> I believe sabdfl was the one who choose kwwii
<damianvila> Maybe sabdfl is tired of seeing lions and elephants lol
<Misosaki> lols
<wfarr> damianvila: any hope on getting the updated lion-claar branded like the previous version?
<wfarr> I think it looks much better with the branding, personally
<nekiruhs> wfarr: I agree
<Misosaki> Yeah, agreed
<wfarr> Ubuntu is probably one of the only distros I can think of that _doesn't_ do branding on their artwork, actually
<Misosaki> Though I've got the darker version on :)
<nekiruhs> I don't know how well the logo would show up on the lighter fur though
<damianvila> wfarr: Some people like it with it, some without. I have no problem putting the logo back
<wfarr> at least out of the Big 3 (ubuntu, fedora, suse)
<wfarr> nekiruhs: it looks fine here (dunno if claar version got lighter since the branded version was posted)
<nekiruhs> wfarr: It had the branding at one point? I must have missed that image.
<Misosaki> The first ones did
<Misosaki> They're still up in GutsyIdeas
<damianvila> nekiruhs: The originals are at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/GutsyIdeas
<Misosaki> brb
<damianvila> At the end I liked the "off center" logo best (like in the "Mufasa" wallpaper)
<nekiruhs> damianvila: Have you tried lightening the Fluid+Fur combo?
<wfarr> nekiruhs: I didn't like the combo myself
<wfarr> I thought it made the wallpaper too busy
<nekiruhs> I thought it was neat, but the elephant with the brand won me over
<damianvila> nekiruhs:no, not really
<wfarr> I like the lion-claar better - but I use Gilouche as my GTK+ theme, so lighter wallpapers look better naturally
<damianvila> I just made the "claar" version because some of the people found the lion too dark...
<wfarr> damianvila: claar looks very good
<wfarr> better than the original imo
<damianvila> It's just the same, but using a different color as backgound
<wfarr> yeah - I'm speaking about the color value =)
<wfarr> the lighter color does wonders
<damianvila> (And I also had to change the border, because the regular lion was too dark for "claar")
<nekiruhs> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Animals?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=elephant-ubuntu.jpg my favorite
<dmccall> damianvila: claar also has what seems a more natural colour for a lion, so the brown looks less forced
<nekiruhs> The slight branding of the logo, without "screaming" it is what I like
<wfarr> the branding is okay - I just think the elephant color is too dark
<damianvila> Yes I know. But the original animals color were a bit depressing lol
<nekiruhs> wfarr: The elephant color is whats being used anyway, and it shows that brown can be done
<damianvila> Zebras and giraffes are OK and funny to work with, but lions and elephants are a little boring... :-)
<wfarr> I still think the beige/light brown of lion-claar looks infinitely better
<damianvila> Well, the truth is, the original pictires add almost no color to the wallpaper
<damianvila> *pictures
<nekiruhs> What you did with the lion face, could you possible do that with an ubuntu logo in lion-claar?
<nekiruhs> That might be interesting
<damianvila> The background color is the one who gives each wallpaper its color, so I can make them in any color
<damianvila> nekiruhs: I tried several ways to brand the wallpaper, but the one you see in the wiki is the one that worked best
<nekiruhs> damianvila: it does look good
<wfarr> http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/9327/screenshotpu4.png
<damianvila> The texture is so heavy that any "ghost" logo is lost and looks rather bland...
<wfarr> that's my desktop with lion-claar's branded version
<damianvila> :-)
<damianvila> With GIMP or any other app you can change it to blue in a breeze if you want
<wfarr> it looks pretty depressing with lion or elephant, but lion-claar makes it feel a lot "warmer"
<wfarr> nah - I think the beige/tan looks warm and inviting
<dmccall> I definitely agree with the lighter, clear white branding. A lot of the time, people make the Ubuntu logo way too obtrusive under some weird assumption that the colours are needed. Nicely, though, this is one of those excellent logos that does not rely on its colours to be recognized!
<damianvila> Yes, good logos must admit being printed/shown in B&W
<nekiruhs> dmccall: So true, most people over-emphasize the colors over the shape
<dmccall> As for the darker ones being depressing, I don't really get that vibe, but something about them seems more like a rug to me, whereas lion-claar and the elephant one seem to be still attached to something alive. Would probably go over a bit better with the vegetarians ;)
<wfarr> lol
<damianvila> lol
<damianvila> I assure you no lion or elephant was harmed in the making of the wallpaper...
<damianvila> Hi BHSPitMonkey
<BHSPitMonkey> hi...
* BHSPitMonkey away
<damianvila> No monkeys harmed either...
<nekiruhs> Any more news on the revision  of the default wallpaper, to remove the artifacts?
<damianvila> Yes, seems like kwwii will try to get rid of the artifacts
<damianvila> There was somenthing in the forums about that
<nekiruhs> Artwork freeze exception then?
<damianvila> Kind of...
<damianvila> Looks like the artifacts were a show-stopper
<nekiruhs> But one of your wallpapers will be a secondary, still in the default package?
<damianvila> I heard something like that, but I'm not sure...
<nothlit> yes
<nothlit> news on the default wallpaper:
<nothlit> 06:52:33 < kwwii> I have to say that I somewhat intended this controversy to see if I could provoke people to step up and take action
<nothlit> 06:53:11 < kwwii> I could have just posted the non-pixelated lighter version (aka original) pic to begin with :-)
<damianvila> Anyway, I'll try to set up something for people to get all the wallpapers in different versions, seeing that a lot of people liked it.
<nekiruhs> damianvila: Like a gutsy-community-wallpapers package?
<damianvila> I just haven't decided where to put it up...
<nekiruhs> Too bad universe is frozen
<damianvila> Yes, but I was thinking about something like a wallpaper repository or something similar
<damianvila> Web based
<nothlit> nekiruhs: no community wallpapers is being handled
<nothlit> by kwwii, and it will go in
<nothlit> including damians animals, but as far as the variations of branding, probably not
<wfarr> damianvila: if you want to make a private repo with the alternate versions
<nekiruhs> damianvila: Check out either tuxfamiliy or Launchpad, both can provide you with a repo
<wfarr> setup an account + ppa on Launchpad
<damianvila> I can put a small page at my server, but I'm afraid that it'll eat my whole bandwith, being that the images are large...
<nekiruhs> wfarr: How much space does LP PPA give you?
<wfarr> damianvila: 1gb storage - unlimited bw
<wfarr> and his packages won't be large enough for it to make a difference really
<damianvila> I have an account: https://launchpad.net/~damianvila
<wfarr> damianvila: just enable your PPA on that page then =)
<wfarr> you'll need to go through signing up as an ubuntero if you aren't already, and adding an SSH key
<nekiruhs> wfarr: OT : I've been looking in to it, any tutorials for the whole signing source packages and uploading them?
<wfarr> nekiruhs: yeah, one second
<damianvila> https://launchpad.net/~damianvila/+archive
<wfarr> https://help.launchpad.net/PPAQuickStart
<damianvila> I need to sign the Ubuntu CCC...
<wfarr> damianvila: you'll also need to sign a gpg key to do that
<damianvila> Yes. I'm not very into PGP... :-P
<wfarr> :p
<damianvila> I'll have to do some research first
<damianvila> Also, I need to do it 2 times, since I'm dual booting constantly
<wfarr> heh
<damianvila> I'll check that and go it as soon as possible
<damianvila> *do it
<andrewabc> testing
<damianvila> Hi LaserJock and andreabc
<damianvila> *andrewabc
<andrewabc> thougth I'd stop in and say I like your wallpapers. currently my wallpaper on windows XP :) :o
<Misosaki> Hi LaserJock, andrewabc
<troy_s> jesus christ
<troy_s> how many people in here now?
<troy_s> digg
<troy_s> got to be digg
<Misosaki> lols
<damianvila> Welcome back troy
<wfarr> troy_s: + ubuntu forums
<troy_s> <Misosaki> Would be nice if there were more complete docs on the whole process -- who the leader(s) are and what currently needs work, for instance. (The artwork and getinvolved pages aren't very detailed about it.)
<troy_s> Misosaki: tried that during Edgy.  Everything was more or less kaiboshed including the process.
<troy_s> <wfarr> I think it looks much better with the branding, personally
<troy_s> As has been discussed in here often, branding is symptomatic of the times.
<wfarr> troy_s: perhaps
<troy_s> wfarr: See car / shoe apparel logo sizes through the last 30 years for examples.
<wfarr> but considering default artwork is generally only featured during so-called reviews of distro releases
<wfarr> the branding certainly doesn't hurt the cause
<wfarr> and for average joe sixpack, as is often the argument, they stick around long enough to change it to suit their tastes anyway
<troy_s> <wfarr> the branding certainly doesn't hurt the cause
<troy_s> To be quite frank, I find it rather cheesy.
<damianvila> The wallpapers?
<troy_s> It should just work as a presence.  The people running it know it is Ubuntu for example.  That said, it is largely a byproduct of design trends.
<troy_s> damianvila: The branding issue.
<damianvila> lol
<wfarr> troy_s: you seem to be the minority in that regard
<wfarr> out of the big names
<wfarr> ubuntu is the only one that comes to mind that doesn't do branding
<troy_s> wfarr: Garbage.  Look to the people who hire educated folks to do the work.  MS and Apple for example, use no branding in default installs.
<damianvila> Thinking of it, I've always get rid of branded backgrounds...
<troy_s> wfarr: Again, however, it is symptomatic of the contemporary design trends.
<wfarr> troy_s: ah, but people go out and buy a computer and _know_ they're getting either OSX or Windows
<wfarr> branding on wallpaper isn't needed there
<wfarr> (though it exists on the respective boot splashes in both)
<wfarr> Fedora, Suse, PCLinuxOS, MEPIS, _even_ Debian
<wfarr> all brand either through logos, name, or both
<andrewabc> ahh, ubuntu-art and ubuntu-artwork direct to same place. just wondering :)
<damianvila> andrewabc: :-)
<wfarr> brb
<damianvila> Well, in the first version I used it because Hoary and Breeze used it and it was the reference given...
<damianvila> But in the finals I get rid of the branding because I feel it's not neccessary
<wfarr> I think the branding makes your work distinctive without being tacky or obtrusive
<wfarr> the way you did it is subtle, but evident
<damianvila> Thanks
<damianvila> And I really liked it off center, liked the "Mufasa" wallpaper
<Misosaki> Well, in the case of the Animals package, would prefer the branding on it here, if only to make it less of a texture
<Misosaki> Otherwise would say it depends on the image in question
<Misosaki> Sometimes slapping branding on an image doesn't necessarily give consistency between brand and the rest of the image
<wfarr> Misosaki: oh certainly
<Misosaki> Though could see troy's point ... the menu icon is there by default anyway
<Misosaki> So having branding isn't mandatory ... more decoration than functional, if that makes any sense
<nekiruhs> The branding helps make the connection between Africa - Ubuntu - Humanity
<Misosaki> Africa ... uh-oh lols
<nekiruhs> It helps bridge the mental gap
<troy_s> <wfarr> Fedora, Suse, PCLinuxOS, MEPIS, _even_ Debian
<troy_s> If you are looking to any of those for proper 'design' trends, you are probably already losing the battle.
<Misosaki> Asked the question earlier, but maybe more people here now will have some ideas ... what are we aiming for?
<troy_s> Fedora has come a long way, and branding the desktop I am almost 100% certain was not Diana's idea.
<nekiruhs> Bye All
<damianvila> The baloon was taken from Fedora's logo, so there was the connection already...
<troy_s> damianvila: Isn't that a bit of a stretch?
<troy_s> damianvila: She certainly crossed the two over, but I think the balloon was more of a byproduct of trying to instill some emotional connection than the logo.
<Misosaki> wb buttercups
<damianvila> I think I read that on her blog...
<troy_s> damianvila: She is formally educated and I believe that it wouldn't be a stretch to suggest that she is familiar with that notion.  ;)
<Misosaki> wb
<troy_s> got to be a memory issue
<troy_s> gd it.
<troy_s> killed a dual layer disk in the crash too.  yay.
<Misosaki> =/
<damianvila> Ouch
<damianvila> I'll go to bed now (it's 3:54 here)
<damianvila> Thanks everybody for your support and kind words
<Misosaki> Laters damianvila
<Misosaki> Keep up the cool work
<damianvila> Misosaki: Thanks! :-)
<damianvila> Bye
<wfarr> troy_s: because surely every other popular distribution must be doing it wrong while Ubuntu is the only one to get it right?
<troy_s> wfarr: I don't think any of them really do it right.  In fact, that is probably part of the problem.  Diana has certainly elevated the bar.  I would like to see what she would do hands free.
<Misosaki> wb andrewabc
<wfarr> troy_s: perhaps
<wfarr> but I don't think there is anything inherently wrong in tasteful branding
<troy_s> wfarr: In fact, the default art and design of the systems you mentioned borders on the simply awful.
<troy_s> wfarr: Diana's evolution excluded.
<Misosaki> What're your ideas of doing it right?
<troy_s> Misosaki: Are you asking me?
<Misosaki> You and wfarr
<Misosaki> And anyone else who wants to put in their 3 pennies
<troy_s> Misosaki: Start with some simple questions:  Who is the default installation aimed at and what exactly are you trying to communicate through its execution.
<Misosaki> (the extra penny is for beer lol)
<troy_s> Misosaki: All answers would stem from those two simple quesitons.
<Misosaki> Yeah ... so do we know the answer to that?
<wfarr> Misosaki: : I think both branding and unbranded can be done well. In the case of Windows and OSX, branding is not necessary because it is implied by the PC purchase. However, new linux users don't really have this distinct ideological separation - especially for blogs/magazines doing reviews of several linux distros throughout the year.
<Misosaki> wb alex
<troy_s> Misosaki: That said, the execution of anything takes a helluva lot of effort.  For example, if you were to put a public 'we want a sausage feel' out there, you can imagine all of the different executions.
<troy_s> wfarr: Completely moot point.  You are _aware_ that you are installing Ubuntu.  I really find that logic completely flawed.
<Misosaki> Maybe what wfarr is saying is PC = Win in a lot of people's minds ... so Linux is supposed to be a different experience
<wfarr> troy_s: right - but for the people reading a review, of say, Fedora 7 - the distinctiveness of the artwork and the fedora logo right there makes a good mental connection between that image and Fedora
<wfarr> with ubuntu, they see a brown wallpaper, but not a whole lot that tells even a person who's never heard of linux until now that _that_, and only that, is Ubuntu
<troy_s> wfarr: Believe me -- good work begets good work.  If the entire execution works, it will become known.
<Misosaki> Then again, could understand that people might not need the reminder (esp. when the logo is already on the menubar)
<DanaG> Hmm, I haven't actually used the new wallpaper, but I must say, I don't like the new use of brown in the Tango icons.  Even if the wallpaper is brown, the icons should still be orange.
<wfarr> DanaG: I surely hope you mean Human... >_>
<DanaG> My 'Places' menu now looks like this: orange folder, orange folder, orange folder, orange folder, omgBROWN 'Computer'
<troy_s> DanaG: Absolutely.  You might want a rounded out palette.  Take interior design -- you round out the entire presentation -- you don't have everything monochromatic green for example.
<DanaG> Nope, Tango was changed, too.
<DanaG> (Look in the changelog.)
<troy_s> DanaG: Are you serious?
<wfarr> A BROWN computer in Tango icon theme? o_O
<troy_s> DanaG: ?
<wfarr> I really doubt they'd do that to Tango.
<troy_s> wfarr: Sounds suspect doesn't it?
<wfarr> troy_s: quite
<wfarr> I can expect that in Human
<nothlit> are you sure you don't mean tangerine?
<DanaG> In Gutsy.
<wfarr> but not Tango
<DanaG> Er, yeah.
<troy_s> Phew.
<wfarr> ah that makes sense
<DanaG> Oops. I mixed up the two.
<troy_s> DanaG: Quite a huge difference.
<Misosaki> troy: With regards to execution, that's understandable, if not encouraged, as that's how new ideas come about too ... if everyone submitted a similar "sausage feel" then it'd just look somewhat the same each time
<troy_s> DanaG: lapo comes in here often.  He is extremely open to public interest / feedback on Tangering.
<troy_s> Tangerine even.
<DanaG> 'even'?  That's a funny way of correcting yourself.
<DanaG> I usually say, "er, I mean <whatever>"
<troy_s> Misosaki: But you can appreciate the point that it might be a big deal if executed poorly.
<Misosaki> Hi DanaG and Madpilot
<Madpilot> hi
<troy_s> Misosaki: Unfortunately, some are willing to throw out everything when execution fails.
<troy_s> Madpilot: ltns
<Misosaki> troy: Through out everything?
<troy_s> Hilarious... It hasn't been this crowded in here in ... uh... let's just say ages.
<Misosaki> *Throw
<LaserJock> heah, I just wanted to drop by and say thanks to the art people and say that I like the Gutsy artwork
<Madpilot> hmm, actual activity in -artwork. Was thinking that was verboten. ;)
<troy_s> Misosaki: Well if something might 'limp' out of the gates with the execution -- it doesn't necessarily mean that the overall direction is bad.  It can simply mean the net result of a given attempt.
<troy_s> Madpilot: LOL
<Misosaki> troy: Yeah
<troy_s> Madpilot: If only for the brief fleeting two seconds here and there when the debacle of default design rears its head.
<LaserJock> troy_s: has there been any word from kwwii as to a decision regarding the default wallpaper?
<wfarr> LaserJock: read UbuntuForums
<wfarr> it seems it'll be revised a bit, but still default
<LaserJock> good
<LaserJock> I read the forums already
<DanaG> I actually like both brown and orange, but I don't like when they are used inconsistently.
<wfarr> while some (or maybe all of the "final" versions?) of the Animal set will be included but not the default setting
<troy_s> LaserJock: Ultimately, he really doesn't have much of a say.  He just forwarded that swoopy thing to begin with (which felt like a Vista knock off immediately I might add and therefore probably appealing to sabdfl)
<wfarr> which is, I suppose, the only realistic compromise for Gutsy anyway
<wfarr> hopefully we won't have these issues come Hardy
<troy_s> wfarr: We will.
<troy_s> wfarr: It will suck.
<Misosaki> lols
<troy_s> wfarr: Without sounding defeatist.  Unless of course, sabdfl has a completely change of direction.
<LaserJock> I like the default wallpaper
<LaserJock> I also like the blue elephant, but think perhaps the current default is better for a default
<Misosaki> When's work for Hardy going to start?
<troy_s> LaserJock: Well... 30 odd percent will apparently.
<DanaG> Oh yeah, remember the old thread about "Improve default theme"?  I wish I knew where that Golden Gate Bridge wallpaper came from.
<LaserJock> troy_s: that's a decent number :-)
<troy_s> LaserJock: I think tonally, the elephant texture would be off, but it could easily be brought into line.
<Misosaki> *Or rather, when will they begin to discuss artwork for Hardy
<troy_s> Misosaki: There won't be any.
<LaserJock> I just think it's weird to have a gigantic animal skin on my desktop :-)
<DanaG> Oh, and something that's always bugged me: the Human theme is orange, but the Metacity theme is brown.
<Misosaki> troy: No?
<troy_s> Misosaki: It will again wait until the last possible minute, then sabdfl will look at things and ... etc.
<troy_s> DanaG: No palette.
<Misosaki> Ah lols
<troy_s> DanaG: No care to ever get a palette.
<troy_s> DanaG: Etc.
<DanaG> If you think animal-skin wallpaper is odd, take a look at skinit.com.
<DanaG> Huh?
<wfarr> troy_s: looks like we should talk to Diana some :p
<wfarr> brb
<troy_s> LaserJock: I think it could be a little more abstract, but ... let's see... IIRC Apple has one in their default walls for one release along the way (Trying to tie into the 'stalker / sleek' factor probably with the release of osx)
<troy_s> wfarr: I can't stress it enough -- I have long been saying hire a trained person.
<troy_s> wfarr: By no small chance, she happens to be an MFA.
<troy_s> wfarr: Some could call coincidence, I wouldn't.
<troy_s> wfarr: Try applying at apple for any low level grunt design / art job without a degree... Good luck on that.
<Misosaki> Yeah, but getting proposals from the community (regardless of whether they will be taken up) costs less
<Misosaki> And still promotes the "community DIY" spirit
<LaserJock> not if they aren't chosen
<troy_s> Misosaki: It still ends up in the same zone -- probably ill conceived.  Again, at least _attempting_ to achieve communication through the design is a starting point that many simply don't understand, don't want to understand, or don't know about.
<DanaG> Hmm, another thing I've found missing in Ubuntu artwork: consistency from grub to bootsplash to gdm to kde/gnome splash.
<Misosaki> No, LaserJock, but people don't have to know that lol
<troy_s> DanaG: Consistency is a strange term.  Certainly one could make the case for palette (although kwwii managed to get some monochrome consistency during Feisty)
<DanaG> Take a look at SuSE, for example.  That's the only one thing I miss from that distro.
<DanaG> Though I guess bright screens on boot at 60Hz == ouch.
<troy_s> DanaG: Consistency sometimes is taken too literally -- for example -- copying the same Image over and over.
<DanaG> and vesafb-tng to fix that isn't minor, and doesn't fix nvidia, anyway.
<troy_s> DanaG: Rather like taking your entire house and making it monochromatic, wrapping whatever wallpaper on _everything_ including the toilet, and calling it 'consistent'.
<Misosaki> troy: Would agree ... just not sure what can be done about it from this end
<DanaG> I guess it would also be hard to get the usplash and gdm logos to line up.
<DanaG> Too much variation... gdm resolution, fb resolution, stretching.
<troy_s> Misosaki: Well, no motif and you are crippled out of the gate.  No thematic, crippled.  No palette, crippled.  Etc.
<troy_s> DanaG: Probably too literal for my tastes when someone starts aligning logos and such.  That said, classical composition is relatively simple to achieve mathmatically.
<troy_s> Misosaki: I think the only thing that can be done is that we wait for the community to have it's artists and designers create decent work to compare against.
<Misosaki> troy: Yeah ... but something like a palette isn't that difficult a thing to come up with, it's just astonishing that there's none established
<troy_s> Misosaki: Diana is a step forwards in that regard, and I would suggest that she has had her hands tied quite badly thanks to garbage legacy 'how things ought to be' attitudes.
<troy_s> Misosaki: Not at all.  Very simple.  I have at least five books on it in my library ranging from basic theory to more abstract palettes pulled from eras / nature / etc.
<troy_s> Misosaki: Agreeing on the fact that we need one is harder.  sabdfl truly doesn't get it -- completely clueless on that regard.  He thinks adding colour to a wallpaper 'confuses its palette' i believe were his words.
<Misosaki> troy: Yeah, just factoring the part about getting consensus over the palette
<troy_s> Hilarious.
<troy_s> Misosaki: Well... even within that, a small palette of say five colours could be interpreted across identical test layouts in a nearly infinite number of ways that greatly change the 'feel'.
<Misosaki> Adding colour to a wallpaper is a no-no?
<troy_s> Misosaki: Basically, yes.
<Misosaki> Hi swj
<swj> hi
<troy_s> I think it is very healthy to at least have the discussions on the table.  Unfortunately, nothing will likely come of the matter.
<troy_s> It is just that huge gap in care and attention from on high.
<troy_s> (Well and the fact that everyone and their dog has some bikeshedding in them when it comes to things like this)
<swj> I though I would "pop in" since the "wallpaper" debate started
<swj> in the forums
<LaserJock> or in the case of Edubuntu it'd be nice if anybody actually contributed artwork
<troy_s> You and about 14 others here :)
<troy_s> LaserJock: Again, I don't know if anyone is willing to get involved in things that have certain implied or explicitly stated limitations.
<LaserJock> troy_s: there aren't really any in Edubuntu
<DanaG> Hmm, I do like the orange, though -- it's quite a refreshing change after all the blue and silver and everything else that's overused.
<LaserJock> other than it needs to fit in with the Edubuntu colors
<troy_s> LaserJock: j and sabdfl get says -- and that is tied.
<Misosaki> lols swj, welcome
<LaserJock> I think sabdfl doesn't care so much when it's Edubuntu
<troy_s> LaserJock: Well the logo colours are one thing.  The wallpaper and the rest of the design should probably be different.
<LaserJock> usually the developers have to do some artwork, which is really bad ;-)
<troy_s> LaserJock: Well... I seem to recall sabdfl and j chatting about that art thing, which has scared me way clear of that project.
<troy_s> _way_
<Misosaki> Which project was that?
<LaserJock> well, in the past we've had issues
<troy_s> (Also, and I feel I always need to state this publically, sabdfl is a bloody brilliant fellow.  His views on art and design are perhaps his greatest weakness from my vantage.  Thank you.  lol.)
<troy_s> LaserJock: Every single Ubuntu project has issues.
<LaserJock> but it seems like sabdfl seems to step in more when the community doesn't step up
<troy_s> LaserJock: Look at K's default wallpaper if you want that immediate sense of 'hey this took 10 seconds -- do you like our distro?'
<troy_s> LaserJock: Community stepping up takes so much time to build the ability to work / liase /etc.
<LaserJock> heh, well I like kubuntu's wallpaper, but I'm not an artist
<troy_s> LaserJock: It can't happen overnight.
<swj> the issues I have is the "blocky" image @ 1280x1024 50 Hz Samsung LCD.  Also, since the image is so dark compiz shadows do not show up.  I understand everyone does not use a LCD monitor or compiz; however, compiz is the new thing thats being introduced into gusty...why not show it off with a lighter wallpaper?
<LaserJock> troy_s: sure
<troy_s> swj: It has been noted.  I am sure something will happen.  Maybe.  Possibly.  Perhaps.
<troy_s> LaserJock: Olga also I think was a driving force there wasn't he?
<troy_s> LaserJock: Re Edu.
<LaserJock> Oliver?
<troy_s> Or still is.
<troy_s> yes.
<LaserJock> he's the lead of Edubuntu
<LaserJock> and he's the poor guy stuck doing everything but the wallpaper usually
<wfarr> troy_s: the new edu wallpaper is actually nice, imo
<DanaG> Oh, and I found an awesome orange tree wallpaper that's worthy of being alongside Dawn of Ubuntu:
<DanaG> http://interfacelift.com/wallpaper/details.php?id=975
<troy_s> wfarr: Linky?
<DanaG> er, orange sunset.
<LaserJock> luckily in the last couple week Jill Carpenter has stepped up to give us a new wallpaper
<wfarr> troy_s: it was mentioned on groklaw today
<wfarr> lemme find it
<LaserJock> she's an artist with Groklaw
<wfarr> (set-face-bold-p 'rcirc-my-nick t)
<wfarr> (set-face-bold-p 'rcirc-nick-in-message t)
<wfarr> (set-face-bold-p 'rcirc-other-nick t)
<wfarr> er wrong buffer
<wfarr> http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20070921112733615
<wfarr> scroll down
<LaserJock> wfarr: we were very close to not getting anything at all
<troy_s> wfarr: The sunset thing has been tried and tried.  Agree though, it certainly could work as a basic direction.
<Misosaki> Hi dmccall
<wfarr> LaserJock: ouch
<dmccall> Hello
<troy_s> wfarr: I would think it would work terrific as a basic direction if filled out properly.
<LaserJock> wfarr: until Jill stepped up literally a couple weeks ago we had 0 gutys artwork
<LaserJock> *gutsy
<wfarr> troy_s: agreed
<DanaG> What I liked about it is that it has shades of Dawn of Ubuntu, so people who have seen it will recognize the idea.
<troy_s> Hey look -- a bit of a palette in there.  Woo.
<troy_s> !
<Misosaki> Heheh
<troy_s> anyways... this is yet more rehashing.  Someone ping me if the upper membrane cares.  Thanks.
<LaserJock> did anybody actually like Dawn of Ubuntu?
<DanaG> I've always wondered why Ubuntu doesn't use fbsplash.
<Madpilot> was 'Dawn of' that one with the tree?
<LaserJock> yea
<DanaG> For a while, I used Dawn Of, because I couldn't find any I liked better.
<Madpilot> it was OK - too busy for my taste.
<nothlit> DanaG: afaik  its a technical thing, fbsplash needs the framebuffer set up and working
<troy_s> LaserJock: Dawn is great.  A little center punched compositionally for my tastes, but leagues better than anything Ubuntu has had before or since.
<LaserJock> really?
<LaserJock> I thought it was the worst wallpaper we ever had :(
<troy_s> LaserJock: Absolutely.  Lol.
<LaserJock> so much for my artistic taste ;-)
<troy_s> LaserJock: Problem is that "Dawn" actually communicates something.  Being a bit on the 'devvy' side of things, you probably gravitate towards extreme uber-minimalist walls as a guess -- no?
<troy_s> Maybe even sometimes just a gradient or a solid?
<LaserJock> yes, dark
<troy_s> lol
<DanaG> I once patched my own kernel with fbsplash, and it still let usplash work uninhibited.
<LaserJock> the smoot chocolate is my favorite
<LaserJock> on OS X I use the b/w lightning pics
<Madpilot> I love the gradient feature of Gnome's background, and the fact that you can use SVG - makes for all sorts of easily customizable stuff.
<troy_s> LaserJock: Again, audience dictates all.
<LaserJock> dark as I can get
<DanaG> It'd be cool to have fbsplash support as a separate package for people who know how to use it.
<Madpilot> I always wind up back at Shadow the Ubuntu Cat, though...
<LaserJock> the usually default Ubuntu wallpapers are just so darn bright for me
<troy_s> LaserJock: Once you start 'classifying' who you are aiming at, it is a helluva lot easier to get some sort of idea as to what is acceptable.
<DanaG> Even if it's just the background part.
<DanaG> Oh yeah, and another point of recent debate: font rendering changes.
<DanaG> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=555964&page=4
<LaserJock> besides, who looks at the artwork? '-)
<troy_s> LaserJock: I suppose that's part of the problem -- there tends to be a lot of 'selfishness' when it comes to computers (as we should be with our own).
* LaserJock runs
<wfarr> DanaG: I much prefer the changes :)
<DanaG> My last post: "Well, whether you like the old or the new is subjective; the best option is to choose something to be default, but add the other as a user-specific option if at all possible -- or at least as a debconf option."
<DanaG> I like the old, myself.
<dmccall> That Dawn of Ubuntu is really cool combined with the Spring and evening versions (forget their names..), especially hooked up with a little cronjob
<troy_s> LaserJock: It is extremely difficult for just about anyone to work towards something that might not be in line with their own views.
<LaserJock> sure
<troy_s> LaserJock: It would appear that the default installation of Ubuntu should consider that very audience in all aspects when it comes to design.  People like to throw around 'For everyone' which is utter garbage.
<swj> If Ubuntu is going to stay brown, I propose ubuntu goes back to warty colors...take away the orange icons and use different shades of brown...then lighten up the warty background and there ya go!
<troy_s> LaserJock: Even breaking into smaller groups is difficult.
<LaserJock> swj: but I like it the way it is :-)
<troy_s> swj: Monochrome?  Yikes.  In fact, I could probably make a pretty solid case that the 'i hate brown' argument is solely based around the fact that NEVER has a palette been properly implemented in ubuntu to round out the brown.
<swj> I have to admit the warty days were good times...first time I ever used linux
<troy_s> swj: If you are trying to achieve a 'wow that is green' feeling, you _always_ require a point of reference.  In photography it is often white light.  In painting, a complimentary colour works well.  Etc.
<troy_s> swj: That could be nostalgia talking then.  ;)
<wfarr> troy_s: what do you think of the Human GTK+ theme?
<swj> well, perhaps...but I liked the warty brown...and I still do.
<troy_s> wfarr: Ambivalent.
<troy_s> wfarr: The fonts are horribly heavy in the window bar, but I don't know what the 'design' is really going for.
<swj> the yellows, oranges have caused more commotion than anything....lately
<wfarr> troy_s: as compared to SUSE's Gilouche?
<DanaG> Brown is cool if done well.  I just don't know how to do it myself.
<troy_s> wfarr: I don't really look to other distros.  I find most of them rather heavy (outlined buttons in the name of 'function' etc.)
<dmccall> As I wrote in the Ubuntu wiki, I think the only thing that's causing the commotion with orange and yellow and brown is that the images of those colours never actually show anything. The imagination gets a bit carried away...
<troy_s> dmccall: _amen_
<LaserJock> dmccall: what do you mean?
<troy_s> wfarr: People will cite fitts law etc., and try to design around it without caring about perhaps the number one 'addage' -- aesthetic of application.
<wfarr> heh
<wfarr> I like Gilouche personally
<troy_s> LaserJock: Without something to connote -- brown becomes 'welcome back to poo'.
<wfarr> the latest incarnation is kind of nice
<troy_s> LaserJock: Look at starbucks if you want to see some wonderful design with brown.
<dmccall> If the image helps the imagination, gives people some pointer that "this is not of manure", people get a lot less carried away thinking of the huge number of gross things it could be
<LaserJock> why in the world do people think it looks like manure?
<troy_s> dmccall: Moreover, any colour when used alone is monotonous as hell.
<troy_s> LaserJock: No connection to any emotion.
<LaserJock> ?
<DanaG> Now if yyou reall ant to see manure on a wallpaper, look at the Mandolux.com wallpaper with the yellow "RIAA" flag in a pile of poo.
<troy_s> LaserJock: It is a symptom of ineffective design.
<troy_s> lol
<troy_s> DanaG: lol.
<LaserJock> doesn't make any sense to me, oh well
<LaserJock> I like the brown and orange
<dmccall> Because they're crazy, of course! Just seems the common negative crit for most Ubuntu wallpapers
<LaserJock> seems like people being idiots to me personally
<troy_s> LaserJock: Tonally, they aren't even in the same value range etc.  Orange and brown need some work to dance together.
<troy_s> LaserJock: More symptoms.  I think the knee jerk reaction in the mind is 'this isn't working' and it vocalizes itself in a number of rather idiodic comments sometimes.
<LaserJock> hmm, it's always worked very well for me
<LaserJock> when I switched to Ubuntu it was something new and fresh
<LaserJock> no long stuck with the stupid blues and greens that *everybody* else was doing
<troy_s> LaserJock: Brown is a beautiful tonal range.  Earthy etc.  I just wouldn't be inclined to use it in the manner that Ubuntu has (monochromatic, no palette to back it up, etc
<troy_s> LaserJock: _AMEN_
<DanaG> Oh yeah, any idea where this wallpaper came from?  http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=441979&page=29
<DanaG> That's what I'm using now.
<troy_s> LaserJock: Ubuntu is a _choice_ away from MS and Apple, and as such the default design should be reflective of that.
<LaserJock> troy_s: I can see the palette thing
<LaserJock> but it doesn't seem horrible
<LaserJock> but I'm not an artist
<LaserJock> so well, I should just shut up ;-)
<troy_s> LaserJock: It isn't really 'horrible' alone.  I think we are talking about trying (attempting to because it isn't that damn easy) achieve some sort of emotional connection (elevated)
<LaserJock> you don't think the wallpapers so far (including the current Gutsy one) have emotional connection?
<LaserJock> or just not enough?
<troy_s> LaserJock: Absolutely 100% in no way do they achieve any level of emotional connection or stimulation.
<dmccall> My thought on brown is that it's the most prominent colour in nature, yet also one of the most unused in design. I think, with the right symbols, it can connect really well with people, just because it is such a common sight in day-to-day life.
<troy_s> LaserJock: Erm... let me correct that -- I firmly believe that with a full palette and the rest of it, the Warty and Hoary wallpapers were a step in the right direction.
<dmccall> So there is a bit of wasted potential here, with a brown theme but no brown objects...
<LaserJock> troy_s: pardon the stupid question, why do I need an emotional connection with my wallpaper?
<LaserJock> it's a stinkin' computer
<troy_s> LaserJock: But we get stuck with this monochromatic hellish uberconservatism as though Ubuntu were controlling market share and had a lot to lose.
<Misosaki> LaserJock: Maybe not so much an emotional connection as with any kind of connection
<Misosaki> That's positive
<troy_s> LaserJock: I don't think you do.  At all.  If you look at it simply however, how much of your social life, your regular lifestyle etc, depends on a computer?
<LaserJock> sure
<troy_s> LaserJock: Further, I wouldn't suggest for a minute that you would be a demographic that I would aim a default installation at.
<LaserJock> but *not* on my wallpaper
<Misosaki> That stems from two key questions troy (and I) have been asking
<LaserJock> my wallpaper has 0 to do with my emotion or computer usage
<LaserJock> I just want the darn thing to not get in the way
<troy_s> LaserJock: Yes.  And I can understand that.  What you are perhaps ignoring is that a mainstream user of say average knowledge in computing sees things possibly differently.
<swj> I think more than anything it is the orange icons...I don't get it.  I can not find a connection...
<LaserJock> well, I've been in distro development long enough to know that that's a possibility :-)
<LaserJock> I just wonder how quantified that is
<troy_s> LaserJock: There is an immediate and visceral connection with design communication.  It is a well studied and learned craft when it comes to design in mainstream big business. (Granted it hasn't always been that way until some company realized that they could make money off of better work.)
<LaserJock> like do the majority of Ubuntu users even care what the wallpaper looks like?
<Misosaki> A wallpaper has both functional and artistic elements. Part of the functional is representing the OS -- so it should communicate the tenets of the OS, or something in relation to the OS.
<troy_s> LaserJock: Probably yes.
<LaserJock> if they are windows users I don't see why they'd care so much
<troy_s> LaserJock: And more importantly, our 'life' as Ubuntu depends on a healthy following -- perhaps meaning more mainstream users.
<troy_s> LaserJock: They do.
<troy_s> LaserJock: Do you care what you wear?
<LaserJock> I've *never* seen a windows user that had anything but the default windows wallpaper
<troy_s> LaserJock: How your hair is?
<troy_s> LaserJock: How someone else looks?
<troy_s> LaserJock: How perhaps your computer looks sitting in your office or living room?
<troy_s> LaserJock: How your car looks?
<troy_s> LaserJock: Get my point?
<LaserJock> sure
<troy_s> And your statement is a damming one.
<swj> ok, I'll ask this way...is it just my model of the world, i.e., only inside my head, that light brown and bright orange do not mix well together?
<LaserJock> but I think you're making the default wallpaper a bit too important
<troy_s> swj: If you are speaking with concrete relationship to the orange and brown in Ubuntu, you are spot on in terms of colour theory.
<Misosaki> Depends on how light a brown and how bright an orange ... and how they're used, swj
<dmccall> Laserjock: Interesting thing. I recently met someone who looked like she /must/ have been technologically impaired, who had gone through all the Windows wallpapers and wanted more to spruce up her desktop. I was shocked!
<DanaG> I like both, but not together as they are now.
<swj> yes, I speaking with respect to ubuntu
<swj> the current human theme
<LaserJock> I'm sure it must happen sometimes
<LaserJock> but how *much* does it happen?
<Misosaki> In the ways they've often been used recently, maybe not
<dmccall> (She was followed shortly after by the "my computer didn't come with spell check" type, who we should also want to appeal to with something pretty)
<troy_s> swj: Colours however, also have a good bloody percentage of 'contemporary style' driving them.
<troy_s> LaserJock: Let's put it this way, the much lauded Apple team of well educated designers is an extremely well paid core.
<troy_s> LaserJock: And they get results.
<LaserJock> sure
<troy_s> LaserJock: As is every movie you have ever seen.
<troy_s> LaserJock: Every commercial -- for example, Samuel Bayer makes approximately 30000 us per day.
<troy_s> LaserJock: ALL he deals with is aesthetic.
<LaserJock> but the Apple wallpaper is the same un-emotional thing that you're saying doesn't work?
<troy_s> (albeit in a completely crazy freakish way when he is doing it.)
<troy_s> LaserJock: Not at all.
<LaserJock> so I get confused
<troy_s> LaserJock: Look to how it fits within the greater picture.
<LaserJock> Apple's artwork looks to me basically as good as Ubuntu's
<troy_s> LaserJock: Look at their decision to change wallpapers to green grass.
<DanaG> That bridge wallpaper does brown and orange well -- look at the shadows of the wires.  That's one awesome effect.
<troy_s> LaserJock: It used that rather 'gemlike' gradient that became standard.  Further, the style is echoed throughout the presentation.
<troy_s> LaserJock: Although yes, the wallpaper probably could have been more evocative.  Perhaps that is why the newer one is far more evocative.
<LaserJock> alright, well I've just got to defer to the professionals
<troy_s> LaserJock: Who is a professional here :)
<LaserJock> unlike the rather annoying  hordes on the forums
<troy_s> LaserJock: And I find everyone's opinions on Ubuntu's direction quite interesting.
<LaserJock> hmm
<troy_s> LaserJock:  The hordes on the forums are more mainstream than what appears in IRC.  Forums are a first point contact for a new user.  I wouldn't underrate them.
<LaserJock> I don't
<troy_s> LaserJock: Let's face it... None of us really know what it takes to push a mainstream operating system into the future.  Arguably, neither does Apple nor MS.
<LaserJock> most days I wish they would go away, but that's just my opinion
<LaserJock> ;-)
<troy_s> LaserJock: LOL.
<Misosaki> They're probably one of the first signs that something is wrong, even if not everyone can articulate the problems.
<troy_s> LaserJock: It would seem that we as FOSS people should be more willing to take risks and fail than we are.
<troy_s> Misosaki: At least a possible 'gauge'.
<troy_s> LaserJock: We have certainly taken our fair share of uber conservative risks with ubuntu.
<troy_s> :)
<LaserJock> well, at this point we have a lot at stake
<Misosaki> troy: Exactly. Then again, whether they're the entire intended "audience" is another debate.
<LaserJock> thinking about enterprise/corporate/government users
<LaserJock> having an OS that looks amatuerish or like a toy can be a problem
<LaserJock> changing branding can be a problem
<troy_s> LaserJock: But that isn't the backbone that built Ubuntu.  Seems ... two faced.
<LaserJock> I don't know
<troy_s> LaserJock: What is branding?
<LaserJock> Ubuntu is the brown OS
<troy_s> LaserJock: If I say 'coca cola' do you know what i mean or do you need white red with a curl.  How do you feel about their new foray into the contemporary design on the cans?
<LaserJock> many forums users wanted us to go to blue or green
<LaserJock> troy_s: their brand is already established
<Misosaki> Why blue or green?
<troy_s> LaserJock: Sure, and people used to say that Apple was blue and that was part of their branding.
<LaserJock> because that's what the forums user say
<troy_s> LaserJock: Now it is black and green.
<swj> sabdfl wrote that the theme color is subject to change a long time ago
<LaserJock> personally I think the "average user" is not what we should shoot for
<troy_s> LaserJock: There have been umpteen clueless and ill researched individuals who have posted regarding how brown doesn't work on human brains.  Ignore that.
<troy_s> Its all tripe.
<LaserJock> we should be shooting for corporate/oem/enterprise
<Misosaki> Yeah, but why do the forum users say they want blue or green? Because of the association with the other OSes (which many protest against)?
<Madpilot> Misosaki, because both MS & Apple use it, so those colours mean "computer" to a lot of people?
<troy_s> Colour is one part theory, one part contemporary design trend, and one part completely chance.
<troy_s> Madpilot: Actually apple is now green and black.
<Misosaki> Yeah, Madpilot, but that's the paradox
<troy_s> Madpilot: So that is moot.  The point being that Apple's designers even realized blue was dead.
<LaserJock> troy_s: yeah, but that's not really out that much yet is it?
<LaserJock> I mean, Apple was white
<LaserJock> and now it's got the black/aluminum thing going on
<Misosaki> On the one hand, some feel the need to have Ubuntu distinguish itself from other OSes, and yet borrow their UI?
<troy_s> LaserJock: It's everywhere.
<troy_s> LaserJock: Look at the iphone
<Madpilot> Misosaki, ya, it doesn't make any sense to me, either.
<LaserJock> well, I've never seen an iphone
<troy_s> LaserJock: Black is the new white, and apple is in for an image overhaul.  Gone is the gloss.
<LaserJock> and I've never touched an ipod
<Misosaki> What does the audience want, what does the community want and what do Ubuntu's leaders want?
<Madpilot> I want a beer.
<troy_s> (although the cheesball wet floors are still around -- thank you Whitesnake and car advertisements of the 90s.
<troy_s> Misosaki: Three totally different audiences.
<troy_s> Misosaki: Erm two.
<LaserJock> well, in reality I think this art stuff is really frustrating
<LaserJock> everybody is a critic
<Misosaki> troy: Exactly.
<troy_s> LaserJock: Amen.
<LaserJock> but nobody seems to contribute much
<troy_s> LaserJock: Double amen.
<dmccall> I wouldn't say it's that bad to borrow the uis. The far superior UI infrastructure in GNOME makes borrowing Windows / Mac interfaces more like rescuing them from poor accessibility and rigid layouts :P
<troy_s> LaserJock: The problem is that you can't really just sit down and contribute a snippit.
<LaserJock> right
<troy_s> LaserJock: For example, when you contribute in code, you choose a project that might use a certain library over another etc...  Art and design is a little different.  Maybe you don't agree with the direction, or you really like someone's approach.
<troy_s> Etc.
<troy_s> Also, Free Artware is uh... new.
<LaserJock> it seems like it'd be better to have an artwork mentoring team
<LaserJock> like to get everybody on the same page
<LaserJock> and understanding the basic elements needed, etc.
<troy_s> Thankfully all the devs of Free Software have made it popular enough that we can at least gripe about its design and presentation!
<Misosaki> There's a team? lols
<dmccall> troy_s: I disagree that it's hard to contribute. I'm not a huge contributor, but I'm having quite a bit of fun with some usability errors today. Not hard to pop in and help out, especially when it is just some fiddling with Glade.
<troy_s> dmccall: Usability?  Rather easy term to use but what does that mean?
<troy_s> dmccall: Usability, again a partner of design, is predicated on an audience.
<troy_s> dmccall: Do you mean for Henrik Omma?
<nothlit> troy_s: i've started work on a set of hardy wiki pages https://people.fluxbuntu.org/~nothlit/communitytheme/hardy/wikipage.txt
<troy_s> dmccall: Or TheMuso?
<dmccall> Gnome-app-install uses Close where it should use Quit, and makes some time-wasting assumptions ;)
<troy_s> dmccall: Again, we in FOSS flop those politically correct terms around without considering that it all comes down to audience.
<swj> going back to colors...I always though brown and green should have been the choice, instead of brown and orange
<LaserJock> well, I hope that this gutsy wallpaper thing might help the art team to gain some new people
<troy_s> LaserJock: People haven't been the problem.  There are a good number of very talented folks out there.
<dmccall> Yah, a green background does look pretty awesome here. Especially some rounded green grass
<LaserJock> troy_s: but it seems so scattered
<troy_s> LaserJock: The bigger problem is agreeing 1) that there is a problem. 2) what direction to take.  3) execute it flawlessly.
<troy_s> everyone of those notes is massive.
<troy_s> LaserJock: Nothing more than sabdfl's fault.
<troy_s> Solely.
<LaserJock> sure
<troy_s> (and again, he is a helluva brilliant guy make no mistake)
<LaserJock> so can you work around him?
<swj> ok do any of you like the orange human icons?
<troy_s> Momentum and interest are fleeting capacities.  Next week it will all change.
<LaserJock> swj: I do, quite a lot
<DanaG> Hmm, here's what Gateway has as their default wallpaper: http://img222.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gateway7wi.jpg
<swj> hmm
<DanaG> Oh, and the orange-liney wallpaper on the 'ideas' page reminded me quite a lot of HP's design.
<troy_s> LaserJock: What is there to be gained by 'working around' someone?  The simple fact of the matter is that somewhere, someone will hate the work no matter what.
<troy_s> LaserJock: In this case, it is xx%, in the next it will be yy%.
<LaserJock> DanaG: urgg, I'd not use that gateway stuff
<dmccall> Anyway, I popped in here really to point hurriedly at some GNOME icons which have snuck their way into the Human icon set. Seems it is falling back to them because of dependencies, and they look really out of place. For example, the stock Delete icon.
<swj> DanaG: it sooo blocky ;)
<DanaG> Odd resolution: 1920x1680.  However, it makes sense: it works for 1920x1200 in landscape, and 1680x1050 in portrait, if centered.
<DanaG> It's shrunk by ImageShack.
<troy_s> dmccall: Post a bug with the details on launchpad?
<troy_s> dmccall: That would probably help the people who need to know.
<DanaG> But the odd resolution is a cool idea.
<troy_s> swj: Default folder?
<Misosaki> Hmm ... so the theme is "what Ubuntu means to you" for Hardy?
<DanaG> anyway, /me must go.  BBL.
<LaserJock> troy_s: well, what I'm saying is why not get a team and create a direction, palette,  etc. and have a nice package ready to go
<Misosaki> Sorry, should be *what thematically represents Ubuntu to you*
<troy_s> LaserJock: Some of us do.
<troy_s> LaserJock: Some don't.
<swj> troy_s, I missed the question
<Misosaki> Laters DanaG
<nothlit> DanaG: tangerine falls back on g-i-t because its more complete and current than tango
<LaserJock> Misosaki: brown!!!
<troy_s> LaserJock: It's evolutionary. It is damn hard to get people to work together as you well know.  It takes a helluva lot of time and dedication when it isn't a heck of a lot of fun.
<Misosaki> LaserJock: That's a start lol
<LaserJock> troy_s: sure, I'm totally with you on that
<dmccall> swj: I like the orange icons; they do well being not too numerous, but tasteful enough when they are. The only questionable ones for me are Nautilus' Emblems, which are not very coherent compared to the GNOME ones.
<dmccall> (Of course, that thought is two minutes off topic)
<nothlit> Misosaki: well, i think the aim of the community side is to inspire fresh new ideas, that will work with ubuntu
<troy_s> LaserJock: And hell... everyone creates crap.  I do it regularily.
<troy_s> LaserJock: But to get to something decent, you rather need to get through that crap.
<LaserJock> yep
<Misosaki> nothlit: Well, another part of it is what theme will be used in Hardy?
<troy_s> LaserJock: Only the crap that one generates for visual is seen by everyone -- not just some kernel coder who goes 'jesus that code is godawful ugly.' lol.
<troy_s> Misosaki: None.
<troy_s> Misosaki: If you are speaking a motif etc.
<LaserJock> troy_s: umm, we do some pretty ugly stuff that everybody sees too ;-)
<troy_s> LOL
<Misosaki> Kind of obvious, but wallpaper should work with the theme ... by theme I mean things like menubars, icons etc.
<LaserJock> i.e. OMG where did X go?
<swj> I just noticed the minimize (using compiz) professionally minimizes now...thats nice!
<troy_s> LOL
<troy_s> LaserJock: Yeah its a hellish world.
<swj> ...gusty lastest updates
<troy_s> LaserJock: Its sad because the art and design element is soooo tied into application development, but the two appear to operate in complete isolation.
<LaserJock> amen to that
<LaserJock> same with docs
<LaserJock> it's very difficult to get all three elements together
<dmccall> Speaking of docs, are there any plans to give those a fresh layout in Hardy?
<LaserJock> dmccall: how do you mean?
<dmccall> Well, they're a tad weird to use...
<LaserJock> how so?
<dmccall> There is the next and previous thing at the bottom, which is really quite useful, hidden away by being very small and (at the moment due to a bug) requiring some extra scrolling to get to
<Misosaki> nothlit: Well ... how can the wallpaper designers ensure their work will look good with the work the icon designers are putting out, unless they're the same person?
<LaserJock> dmccall: I'm sure there will be more work on that for Hardy, the help viewer had some major changes for gutsy so there's some remaining bugs
<dmccall> Ah, I see
<LaserJock> Misosaki: communication I'd say
<Misosaki> If there's no dialogue between departments, then that's where a blueprint comes in
<nothlit> Misosaki: in terms of general colours, they will if we follow what ubuntu's been doing so far
<nothlit> Misosaki: we cannot create an entire new icon set for each release
<nothlit> and plus it has to mesh with whats out there
<troy_s> LaserJock: It is almost as though Ubuntu is stressing the 'oldschool' free software design model.
<LaserJock> troy_s: how do you mean?
<nothlit> Misosaki: from speaking to lapo, there isn't going to be any individualisation of the icons, besides a simple palette change
<Misosaki> Probably, but it would help if everyone were told in advance what they have to work with, instead of doing work and then finding out it doesn't fit in the "overall picture"
<troy_s> Misosaki: It is an almost too literal thing to do, but having a concrete palette in place with concrete usage details at least helps to coordinate that aspect.
<troy_s> LaserJock: Well because Ubuntu has gotten to be such a huge monster (still an infant in the grand scheme of things)
<wfarr> nothlit: personally I'd rather default to GIT2 anyway
<wfarr> it's getting better each release of GNOME
<Misosaki> troy: Which is one of the things we seem to be lacking at the moment
<troy_s> LaserJock: That certain elements that are 'weak' are becoming more apparent.
<LaserJock> troy_s: agreed
<troy_s> Misosaki: Yep, and it will never happen with the current uh... design vector as it were ;)(
<LaserJock> lots of growing pains
<troy_s> Misosaki: As per the nature of relativistic thought, if you stuff three people in a room every one will have a different take on something as simple as flipping a coin.
<Misosaki> troy: lols ... which is what I'm trying to ask nothlit ... there's no palette
<troy_s> Misosaki: Which is why I am a huge proponent of having a clearly defined audience and a clearly defined communication goal.
<troy_s> Misosaki: That sort of thing requires the approval of up high, and again, I just can't see it happening.
<Misosaki> Nor any actual communication objectives
<troy_s> Misosaki: Even when you put up clearly monochromatic tones on a wiki, no one seems able to follow them.
<troy_s> Misosaki: So I don't know.  Look at the wiki for the 'ideas' page -- not one is close tonally nevermind content.
<troy_s> lol
<Misosaki> troy: lols Maybe they think rules are made to be broken
<Misosaki> ;)
<troy_s> Misosaki:  Tried something like that back in the dark ages.  The result was underwhelming to sabdfl (as you can see clearly where his aesthetic lay) and as a result, the entire effort was for not (the bulk of which was evolving a smidge of a community and a smidge of organization and a smidge of collaboration / discussion)
<nothlit> Misosaki: this is the closest we have/are allowed https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/sabdflAesthetic?highlight=%28artwork%29
<troy_s> In the end, it seemed sad and frustrating.  Ignore it.  Contribute to a project that desires it.
<troy_s> nothlit: And that was nothing more than me sampling the damn colours from all of the 'sabdfl approved' bits that had evolved.  I wouldn't read too much into that being as I was the one who bothered to collect them.
<Misosaki> lols
<Misosaki> Though people take that sampling to mean they can combine colours on it
<Misosaki> And even combine the colours there with other "very different" colours, e.g. blue
<Misosaki> Or green ;)
<troy_s> Misosaki: Or things that aren't even close to the target.  Its more of the same.  Probably growing pains, but no one will be around long enough to grow lol.
<Misosaki> lol
<Misosaki> Hi alphasubzero
<alphasubzero949> hi
<BHSPitMonkey> are we talking about the wallpaper in here?  :|
<Misosaki> If you want to talk about it
<BHSPitMonkey> I thought we were past dapper-brown already :(
<Misosaki> troy will have his Throne Speech ready
<Misosaki> ;)
<BHSPitMonkey> oh I'm sure
<Misosaki> What's wrong with dapper-brown?
<BHSPitMonkey> it's... depressing
<BHSPitMonkey> murky
<Misosaki> What do you suggest then?
<BHSPitMonkey> versus the bright, vibrant, clean ranges in the past few releases
<BHSPitMonkey> I suggest that wallpaper is bundled as an extra :)
<Misosaki> If that wallpaper is bundled as an extra, what should the default be?
<nothlit> brownfluid will be relightened and noisefree afaik
<BHSPitMonkey> Misosaki, I'm only prepared to submit my discontent with the current choice right now :)
<Misosaki> BHSPitMonkey: Ah ... did you by any chance already post in DefaultWallpaperCriteria?
<BHSPitMonkey> no, I haven't been as actively following this release's art drama as in past releases sadly
<BHSPitMonkey> first month at uni, quite busy
<BHSPitMonkey> the Digg story perked my attention to be honest
<Misosaki> There's already a forum thread, though some people are posting on the wiki page so the feedback is in one (or two) places
<Misosaki> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Gutsy/DefaultWallpaperCriteria
<Misosaki> Forum thread: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=555477
<Misosaki> The visuals are set for Gutsy, so a change not happen ... but maybe it would help with things in the next release
<Misosaki> *so a change might not
<Misosaki> wb
<BHSPitMonkey> heh, the animal-skin submissions are interesting
<BHSPitMonkey> 'cept it kind of confuses me, how it fits in with a "Human" theme.
<BHSPitMonkey> Linux for human beings, with fur
<BHSPitMonkey> and they aren't scalable
<Misosaki> Human beings have fur. :|
<BHSPitMonkey> heh
<Misosaki> ;)
<BHSPitMonkey> not giraffe fur
<Misosaki> Sure ... on October 31st
<BHSPitMonkey> but really
<Misosaki> Not quoting the artist, but it apparently it's Africa - Ubuntu - Community
<dmccall> Human has always struck me as allowing for anything that is natural; everything that has an impact on being human
<dmccall> Be it grass, trees or giraffes
<BHSPitMonkey> grass is taken ;)
<Misosaki> Maybe consider it to have broader associations
<Skwid_> has there been any decisions regarding the final wallpaper ?
<Misosaki> hi Skwid
<dmccall> Grass actually looks awesome with this theme, by the way. All we need is an SVG magician
<BHSPitMonkey> Skwid_, digg?  :)
<BHSPitMonkey> #inkscape :)
<Skwid_> BHSPitMonkey: ? digg makes decisions now ? :)
<Skwid_> hello Misosaki
<BHSPitMonkey> Skwid_, no, just wondering if you happened to bounce from there :)
<Skwid_> personally, I just put the elephant wallpaper and i think it looks great
<Misosaki> Yes, Skwid
<BHSPitMonkey> (an article just surfaced there about the wallpaper decision)
<Skwid_> BHSPitMonkey: not really, do you get a lot of digg wanderers around here ?
<nothlit> i haven't seen any in here
<Misosaki> dmccall, did you mention there's a post somewhere on it in the forum, about the final wallpaper decision?
<BHSPitMonkey> Skwid_, well, I was in here already, but the digg article prompted me to start talking about it a few minutes ago
<Skwid_> ah ok
<Skwid_> i'm really impressed how good my ubuntu desktop looks compared to just a few months ago ... with things such as compiz, fusion, cairo, awn, murrine, screenlets ...
<Skwid_> and i love the icons included in ubuntu :)
<dmccall> Misosaki: No, I don't think I mentioned that...
<Misosaki> Seems like quite a few people are coming in wanting to know about the wallpaper, so might as well have links ready
<Skwid_> anyways, I just wanted to see what the final call was for the wallpapers before going to bed
<Misosaki> dmccall: Nvm, mind then, sorry ... someone did earlier
<BHSPitMonkey> Skwid_, how did you get screenlets working by the way
<BHSPitMonkey> I'm looking to try them out to replace my gdesklets
<dmccall> Skqid: Yah, Clearlooks is pretty swell now, too. Tough to choose between it and Human :/
<Misosaki> Skwid: Brownfluid it is, though apparently it will be revised
<Skwid_> BHSPitMonkey: hum, i use the repo
<BHSPitMonkey> Skwid_, default, or a 3rd party?
<BHSPitMonkey> I don't believe I saw them in the ubuntus
<Skwid_> Misosaki: ah :( oh well, I'll be rogue and stick with my animals then :)
<Misosaki> Something from the Animals set will be included as well, but not as the default one
<Skwid_> BHSPitMonkey: http://hendrik.kaju.pri.ee/screenlets/?q=node/5
<BHSPitMonkey> I am frankly more concerned with what gets presented to new users in a default desktop than what ships for me personally
<Skwid_> BHSPitMonkey: yeah exactly
<Skwid_> everybody changes their wallpaper anyways, but for demos/liveCD etc it might make a difference
<BHSPitMonkey> I try to promote ubuntu pretty vigilantly, but it's hard to do so when I show somebody and feel embarrassed by it.
<BHSPitMonkey> "sorry it's so ugly, you can change that"
<Skwid_> :)
<Skwid_> it's hard because people are not accustomed to the idea of being able to change every single bit of your UI
<BHSPitMonkey> "linux is all about customization, which is why the defaults weren't given too much consideration honestly."
<Skwid_> they're used to 'what you see on first boot is what you get'
<wfarr> BHSPitMonkey: that line of thinking really grills me
<BHSPitMonkey> wfarr, are you agreeing with me, or opposing me? :)
<Skwid_> anyways
<wfarr> BHSPitMonkey: agreeing
<BHSPitMonkey> k :)
<Skwid_> i'm heading for bed
<BHSPitMonkey> gnight
<Skwid_> good luck with the digg crowd :)
<Misosaki> Laters Skwid
<BHSPitMonkey> heh
<wfarr> the whole "defaults suck... BUT YOU CAN CHANGE THEM!" argument seems to entirely miss the point
* BHSPitMonkey secures the perimeter
<Misosaki> lols Thx?
<BHSPitMonkey> wfarr, agreed;  I want my ubuntu to be beautiful when I show it to others :(
<BHSPitMonkey> and out of the box, at that
<wfarr> in fact, when I configure people's pc's with ubuntu
<wfarr> I end up changing the GTK+ and wallpaper
<wfarr> before they even see the defaults
<wfarr> because I've seen the reaction before
<BHSPitMonkey> it's almost like shuttleworth should buy off apple's art dept. :/
<wfarr> BHSPitMonkey: except then people would enjoy lookng at the default art :p
<BHSPitMonkey> heh
<wfarr> anyway, I should've been in bed long, long ago
<BHSPitMonkey> live on the edge for once
<wfarr> BHSPitMonkey: school tomorrow
<wfarr> and I've already stayed up 2 hours too late
<BHSPitMonkey> me too, but do I complain? :)
<BHSPitMonkey> night
<wfarr> night
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-artwork.log
<lassegs> ho is the default installation aimed at and what exactly are you trying to communicate through its execution.
<lassegs> For example, when you contribute in code, you choose a project that might use a certain library over another etc... Art and design is a little different.  Maybe you don't agree
<lassegs>                 with the direction, or you really like someone's approach.
<lassegs> wow sorry. this irc client is a pain in the ass
<lassegs> well, good morning everybody
<nothlit> heyas
<damianvila> Good morning (to those in Europe)
<Ludwik> Good morning (10am in Poland)
<lassegs> yeha good mornin.
<lassegs> kwwii: so im drawing an outline for this IRC meeting we discussed last night
<lassegs> sorry, im slow here but i have customers calling me. troublesome :P
<damianvila> A quick poll to those awake: what's your screen resolution? (just curious)
<lassegs> 4  1680x1050
<lassegs> lots of screen realestate :9
<damianvila> Same here :-)
<damianvila> I did that same question at my blog, and was surprised to see that SXGA was tied to WSXGA
<damianvila> Looks like a lot of people are switching to widescreen now
<damianvila> If you're interested you can see the results here (is still an open poll): http://electriblog.com/?page_id=89
<lassegs> damianvila: actually i think that is wierd, because i like pivot feature a lot. since i read lots of documents i need more space vertically than horizontally. the same thing with web pages.
<lassegs> damianvila: but for film, its good.
<damianvila> I remember an old Radius monitor with the pivot feature, many years ago...
<damianvila> Truth is most apps use some kinds of palettes that narrow the horizontal space
<nysosym> I love widescreen, a lot of extra space for tools like photoshop or gimp :=
<damianvila> A square monitor (1:1) would be an interesting thing to see, though...
<damianvila> :-)
<nysosym> what a horrible thing :D
<nysosym> widescreen is more natural for the eyes
<damianvila> Oh!, Joseph Connors left a comment at my blog. How nice! :-)
<Ludwik> damianvila - I just tried to vote in a poll on your blog and I got "Please choose a valid poll answer" error...
<damianvila> Ouch!, I'll see what's wrong with that...
<lassegs> Ludwik: the poll doesnt like you. My voting went nicely.
<damianvila> Wich one, the one about resolutions?
<Ludwik> Yeat, that one.
<Ludwik> I tried in both Firefox and Opera.
<damianvila> Mmmm, I'll check it. Maybe it's because I translated it to english or something (I just switch the language of the blog from spanish to english)
<Ludwik> Oh, the one in a sidebar works!
<Ludwik> I tried http://electriblog.com/?page_id=89 and it didn't work, but the same poll in a sidebar works.
<damianvila> I've got a vote from Poland there :-)
<Ludwik> :)
<nysosym> i now one from germany :D
<damianvila> I'll see if there's a new vrsion of that plugin
<damianvila> Yep, there's a new version. I'll update the plugin, just in case.
<nysosym>  wanne have the lion wallpaper without the ubuntu logo, as default gutsy one :)
<nysosym> i love this one :D
<damianvila> You can get it here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Animals
<nysosym> amazing! :)
<nysosym> and now default for gutsy :)
<nysosym> much betters as the current one
<damianvila> I thought "brown-fluid" was the default...
<nothlit> it is
<damianvila> Ah!, OK
<lassegs> damianvila: but your will be included.
<damianvila> Yes, nothlit told me that
<damianvila> Looks like people takes wallpapers more seriously than the people who makes them :-P
<lassegs> i understand them. first impressions _are_ important.
<damianvila> But I like what Joseph (and kwwii) made!
<lassegs> damianvila: im not disagreeing.
<damianvila> http://www.flickr.com/photos/jciv/322205551/in/set-72157594417940191/
<damianvila> I also loved what you did Lasee :-)
<nothlit> wow, that version is quite stunning
<lassegs> damianvila: likewise of course. thanks. they needed more work, and i got stuck on some inkscape error.
<nothlit> lassegs: you using svn?
<lassegs> nothlit: yeah
<Ludwik> I think the default wallpaper isn't bad (thought some other projects from Joseph/kwwii series was better IMO). I think there was so much controversy simply because the Animal series was so outstanding, original and made people say "wow, I really want that!".
<lassegs> nothlit: i didnt take troy_s advice about making layers png, so blurred layers wouldnt slow down the program.
<lassegs> nothlit: coming from Illustrator, this never was an issue
<nothlit> hey someone just added two wallpapers to the wiki
<damianvila> really?
<nothlit> lassegs: yeah, its unfortunate, with the ui so great
<nothlit> i think we'll have to wait for cairo to be usable for inkscape as a rendering engine
<lassegs> nothlit: i dont know anything about that
<damianvila> Oh!, green. Nice images. :-)
<nothlit> my small contribution btw https://people.fluxbuntu.org/~nothlit/communitytheme/gutsy/wallpapers/
<nothlit> theres also a new one hidden as a deviantart link http://lituuslimacon.deviantart.com/art/human-blobs-64281732
<damianvila> nothlit: I didn't comment on your work, but it's great :-)
<lassegs> nothlit: yeah its really something, although i would do something where the "hands" connect. looks a little off, i dont know.
<damianvila> I'd use less contrast. Make the shapes more subtle...
<lassegs> shapes subtle I agree
<nothlit> lassegs: yeah, it comes from the metaballs and the tris i think
<nothlit> lol, i've been told to scrap the ubuntu logo so next time around i'll probably do something more abstract
<damianvila> :-D
<damianvila> Try to make it blend with the background
<nothlit> lassegs: i think you could really develop springer more
<nothlit> lassegs: nothing wrong with using illustrator to do the job if you need to
<damianvila> A background image needs to "be there" without attracting your eye a lot.
<lassegs> nothlit: I know, but first off i want to make others contribute :)
<lassegs> so im working on trying to organize an IRC meeting to get this thing going
<lassegs> btw, kwwii you here?
<lassegs> all of this happens in real time, starting well before the deadlines
<nothlit> speaking of which, i've started work on the wiki page
<nothlit> https://people.fluxbuntu.org/~nothlit/communitytheme/hardy/wikipage.txt
<lassegs> god damn irc client
<lassegs> pastes things randomly
<nothlit> lassegs: use xchat if you don't like irssi
<lassegs> i like irssi, but it behaves wierd through this java ssh client.
<nysosym> my wallpaper ideas :D
<nysosym> http://www.nysosym.de/Wallpaper.html
<nothlit> i know putty pastes things with right click, its a little weird, maybe your java client does the same?
<nothlit> nysosym: i'd go for more intentional blurring
<nothlit> or at least focused abstract macros
<nothlit> nysosym: i quite like the colours though :)
<nysosym> thx :D
<damianvila> I like "Lion Lilly" and "Green Land"
<nothlit> damianvila: i happen to have 2 lighter versions actually https://people.fluxbuntu.org/~nothlit/communitytheme/gutsy/wallpapers/lightdistribution/paintedlightsansmud2.png https://people.fluxbuntu.org/~nothlit/communitytheme/gutsy/wallpapers/lightdistribution/paintedlight.dark.2.balanced.png
<lassegs> nysosym: yeah, this is good. real good. green land is great
<nysosym> if you wanne have a high res version say anything :D
<lassegs> nysosym: pleasae
<lassegs> *please
<nysosym> i*ll do a package of all wallpaper
<nothlit> i got tired of mousing at 1920x1080 though
<nothlit> nysosym: do you have the preblurred source images?
<nysosym> the most of them are done with abstract forms in photoshop with a very high level of gaussian blur
<damianvila> nothlit:those are gret. Would like to see then with some kind of "charcoal" effect or something...
<nysosym> only some of them are taken from photos
<damianvila> Is this really a Vista wallpaper? http://www.piplos.org/wp-content/uploads/2007/05/windows-vista-aurora-wallpaper.jpg
<nysosym> yes
<nothlit> damianvila: charcoal?
<nothlit> damianvila: how so
<nothlit> i had to get rid of roughness in the painting, it started to look muddy/patchy lol
<damianvila> nothlit: like it was hand-made, like charcoal on paper...
<nothlit> yes, the installation starts like that too [vista] 
<nothlit> its underwater inspired, i've been told
<nysosym> my first painting on wacom, what do you think about?
<nysosym> http://img166.imageshack.us/my.php?image=monk2it0.png
<nothlit> damianvila: i'll try playing with my pastels and charcoal, see what I come up with :)
<nothlit> nysosym: a nice start
<damianvila> nothlit: do you have the original image of that?
<nothlit> nysosym: don't worry so much about the details first, make sure you have your values blocked in
<damianvila> I need to start using my Wacom again, specially after seeing what Troy S. can do with it... :-P
<nothlit> damianvila: troy is doing vector art lol
<nothlit> damianvila: sure, my source images are quite ugly lol
<damianvila> nothlit: he made a portrait of his daughter using Inkscape and his Wacom that was stunning...
<lassegs> im getting a wacom this wednsday. Looking forward to it :D
<damianvila> I used the Wacom a lot when I used Mac, but I'm not using it at all with the PC...
<nothlit> damianvila: private message me your email
<nysosym> my wireless wacom doesn't work with ubuntu :-/
<nysosym> http://www.nysosym.de/Wallpaper.zip
<damianvila> nothlit: damianvila at gmail :-) (it's no secret) lol
<nothlit> nysosym: also, watch your negative space, you need to have a balance
<nysosym> nothlit: yes i know, these picture isn't final yet, especially the trees and the boddom
<nysosym> bottom i mean ^^
<nysosym> ground
<nysosym> you know hat i mean :D
<nysosym> *what
<nysosym> damn, i hate gimp with osx
<nothlit> damianvila: source images sent
<nothlit> as you can see, they're quite raw, i got impatient and scribbled over them with gimp and declared it done
<damianvila> I'm downloading it
<lassegs> nothlit: did you get a chance to read what I sent you?
<nothlit> lassegs: oh sorry, it automatically got sorted into my ubuntu art mailing list label, didn't notice
<lassegs> nothlit: ok :)
<nothlit> lassegs: its a great start :D
<nothlit> the major issue is as you pointed out, number of contributions
<lassegs> remember that the answers I give to the question is just my notes.
<nothlit> its not really kwwi against the world, and theres not much we can do to make it a democratic process without overstepping
<damianvila> nothlit: It came like that out of Blender?
<lassegs> nothlit: i dont agree.
<nothlit> damianvila: yes
<nothlit> damianvila: and the monochromatic 4:3 came out of indigo
<damianvila> Oh! Can you do one with a white backgound?
<nothlit> sure
<nothlit> lassegs: what are your ideas?
<lassegs> nothlit: kwwii needs  some kind of team around him, that will make the team responsible, they can do the dirty work, but we listen to him ultimatly. he must of course be willing to listen, but as far as i know him, that isnt a problem.
<damianvila> I can easily do the lights inside photosop. A White background's got more possibilities :-)
<lassegs> nothlit: so its a two way communication, but he gives the orders.
<damianvila> lassegs: that  came as a surprise for me. I thought he was handling everything on his own.
<lassegs> damianvila: now he is, as i understand it, he values good input
<lassegs> damianvila: so we should organize that input for him, and take some load off his shoulders.
<damianvila> But he needs to be more strict and clear in his requirements, I think
<lassegs> anyways, these are things that we must have kwwii here to get some answers to. Where is he anyways? Maybe he restarted that movie last night, since he got interrupted.
<lassegs> gtg to lunch. bbl
<damianvila> lassegs: see you
<damianvila> Hi Skiessi
<Skiessi> hi
<lassegs> mmm birthday lunch. Cake at 1200 fits me well :P
<damianvila> lassegs: you birthdate or a coworker's?
<lassegs> mine
<damianvila> Oh!, Happy birthdate!
<damianvila> *day
<lassegs> my mothers christmas gift for dad. :)
<lassegs> 24.09
<lassegs> trying to read back here, since the digg article and ubuntuforums thread about the wallpaper, the backlog is incredibly long.
<nothlit> what on <earth> is going on in the forums http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=3417505&postcount=216
<lassegul> hm.
<lassegul> all the more reason why we need to get a better procsess.
<kwwii> oh man, one little person gets pissed off and goes overboard
<lassegul> kwwii: finally.
<lassegul> kwwii: good morning
<kwwii> moin moin
<nothlit> kwwii: wb
<damianvila> nothlit: I really don't know...
<damianvila> Hi kwwii
<kwwii> hi damianvila
<lapo> hi
<lassegul> lapo: hi man
<damianvila> Looks like some kind of snowball effect to me. Hi lapo
<kwwii> I will send an email
<lassegul> kwwii: just forwarded you an e-mail. mind reading it and tell me what you think (about the form, not my answers to the questions.)
<lassegul> should we try to stop it by posting?
<lapo> kwwii: I like the new wallpaper
<nothlit> damianvila: mailed you a white and pinkened version
<damianvila> nothlit: thanks
<damianvila> nothlit: I just see a black image (all back)
<kwwii> lassegul: sounds pretty good to me
<damianvila> Oh!, no. Mi err.
<nothlit> damianvila: both of them?
<kwwii> lapo: thanks man
<lapo> kwwii: there's a lot of talking about it, but that's normal since you can't really please anybody
<damianvila> No, no, It's just that I didn't see it was truncated :-P
<lapo> bikeshed you know :-)
<kwwii> lapo: yeah, I am somewhat used to this kind of response
<lapo> I think andreasn knows something about it, right andreasn :-)
<lassegul> kwwii: the thing is we should keep it real general, as I draw up, just to get people turned on to this, and share an understanding for what we want to do.
<kwwii> lapo: it is a bit too dark, and it is a bit pixelated, that will be fixed
<lassegul> kwwii: then specify it later at UDS
<lapo> a tad rainy but no so much, I don't think is too dark tho
<lapo> grainy
<andreasn> lapo: hrm, yeah :)
<damianvila> nothlit: It's OK :-) I'll play with it later...
<kwwii> lassegul: the one thing that we cannot do is to promise a really democratic system (and I am pretty sure people will scream that it should be fully democratic)
<lassegul> kwwii: yeah'll have to keep that very clear
<lassegul> kwwii: the meeting will understand it just by telling them that, then we must design the whole framework with that in mind
<lapo> democracy cannot really work regarding artwork unluckily
<damianvila> kwii: I agree with that. Artwork must be handled by just one person.
<kwwii> yepp, I've always said that
<damianvila> lapo: exactly
<lapo> you can build a community around it but there's the need of one person which choose what goes in and what not
<kwwii> the only people who think that artwork is a community, democratic process are people who cannot do artwork :-)
<lapo> eheh
<andreasn> we actually had a totally democratic when deciding on the guadec logo, and I kind of had problems with it since
<damianvila> GTG, be back in an hour or so
<lassegul> we were through this yesterday. We wont have a forumpoll, but we need to have a proscess that makes user contributors, not critisizers.
<andreasn> mostly it proportions
<kwwii> see you
<lassegul> as i see it.
<lassegul> damianvila: bye
<lassegul> kwwii: so how about we set a date an time for this meeting?
<kwwii> lassegul: any time between 9 UTC and 21 UTC are fine by me (and any day except thursday)
<kwwii> I'm putting an email together now, I'll post it and then you can mention it as well on the forum, ok?
<kwwii> erm, rather, you should send your email first and then I will mention it in mine
<lassegul> kwwii: ok then i clean out my answers, and send it as it is.
<kwwii> sounds good
<lassegul> kwwii: is "let one thousand flowers bloom" offensive?
<kwwii> I do not think so
<lassegul> kwwii: its a Mao quote, the guy killed off some million people.
<lassegul> kwwii: but it fits well.
<lassegul> :P
<kwwii> I just do not want anyone to get it in their head that it will be a democratic choice from the community
<kwwii> as I cannot promise that
<kwwii> hehe
<lassegul> so we go with Mao quotes :D
<lassegul> just to set the stand
<nothlit> kwwii: i mailed you a wiki article set proposal
<kwwii> nothlit: haven't gotten it yet it seems
<nothlit> kwwii: nm, its here anyways https://people.fluxbuntu.org/~nothlit/communitytheme/hardy/wikipage.txt
<nothlit> I've started work on a Hardy Wiki page, as an effort to get more
<nothlit> people involved. I think that this is the first step, and then we move
<nothlit> on to the forums etc, as discussed on irc.
<kwwii> nothlit: looks excellent
<nothlit> should i commit the pages to the wiki?
<kwwii> yes, please do
<nothlit> ok, doing that now
<kwwii> give me the link and I will include it in my email
<kwwii> nothlit: looking back I did receive your email, sorry
<nothlit> no probs
<nothlit> kwwii: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Hardy
<kwwii> excellent, thanks!
<nothlit> uh
<nothlit> i think someone deleted them all
<kwwii> no, it looks like they added their new stuff at the top
<nothlit> oh, interesting, the pages dissapeared for half a minute
<nothlit> disappeared*
<kwwii> freaky, they are there now
<kwwii> lassegul: sent that email yet?
<lassegul> kwwii: no im making a new one, trying to make it a little better.
<kwwii> cool, I just sent my email in which I hint at the one you are writing :-)
<lassegul> kwwii: and i had to have a little meeting with my boss.
<kwwii> ahhh, that stupid work stuff again :p
<kwwii> lapo: you've got mail :-)
<lassegul> kwwii: its sent now.
<kwwii> lassegul: great, thanks
<nothlit> lassegul: no ballbark date set?
<nothlit> ballpark*
<lassegul> nothlit: for the meeting? no, i thought kwwii should decide.
<lassegul> nothlit: anyways, i should really learn something about gmt and utc before i try to set meeting times :S
<kwwii> I'll respond with some suggestions
<nothlit> lassegul: http://worldtimeserver.com/time_converter.aspx http://worldtimeserver.com/meeting-planner.aspx
<lassegul> nothlit: ah thank you. without this I would probably be joining a couple of hours later than everybody else
<lassegul> how about 2000 UTC/GMT this wednsday? That should be good for USA, Europe, and Africa?
<kwwii> lassegul: erm, it would probably be better next week instead of this week - it would give people more time to plan
<kwwii> people will probably complain if we only give them two days time
<lassegul> yeah im just a little eager to get this going
<lassegul> your right
<kwwii> perhaps friday
<kwwii> heck, I would even do it on thursday at that time
<lassegul> yeah how about friday?
<kwwii> sounds good to me
<kwwii> if people complain, so be it
<kwwii> it is just a suggestion, after all
<lassegul> but arent you gonna be on your way home to you family by then
<kwwii> hrm, I wonder why my email did not get through to the list
<kwwii> well, I work from home so it is not a problem
<kwwii> I just tend to pick some time and then turn off my computer until sunday
<lassegul> ok
<kwwii> freaky, none of my emails are coming through to the list
* lapo checking mail
<lapo> kwwii: check the other channel :-)
<kwwii> lapo: right, checking
<`23meg> hi all
<lassegul> hi `23meg. Did you see my mail on the list? I stole some of your suggestions
<`23meg> yes, just saw it
<`23meg> the message is good, but the title is a bit.. you know..
<lassegul> yupp :)
<`23meg> :)
<lassegul> read back and youll see we discussed it :P
<kwwii> if that is the only thing people find to complain about we should be happy
<lassegul> could you propose the scheduel kwwii?
<lassegul> on the list.
<kwwii> yepp, will do
<kwwii> done
<lassegul> kwwii: we should prepare a little for this, by discussing the issues before the meeting to get a good debate going on the right track.
<lassegul> kwwii: but to some extent we already have, so we can probably postpone it to thursday or something
<kwwii> after we figure out exactly what time we are having it we can put together a list of topics
<kwwii> and post those in advance
* lassegul said, stupidly assuming that this wont be a heated debate on the mailinglist.
<kwwii> I have a couple of issues which I would like to add concerning mailling list administration and other stuff
<lassegul> good.
<kwwii> I think that you will be surprised at how few people will be interested in a  meeting
<kwwii> everyone likes to spout off on a forum but actually spending time to figure things out and work in the right direction is something else
<lassegul> as long as we get like 5-10 people who can do some work with us i would be satisfied.
<kwwii> yepp
<lassegul> I already trust nolith damianvila 23meg and maybe troy_s and some others are with us.
<kwwii> time will tell
<kwwii> speaking of time, lunch time for me
<kwwii> be back in while
<lassegul> just hope we dont get digged, and it'll be stand up comedy amateur night here, just like the digg.com comments
<`23meg> I can't make it on Friday and Saturday nights this week
<lassegul> how about thursday then? 4 days should be enough for people to prepare :S
<lassegul> kwwii: http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=3417876&postcount=223  sorry about this, that didnt look to good, when its cut out of its content :P
<`23meg> Thursday is much better
<`23meg> I have concerts on both friday and saturday :)
<`23meg> just posted to the list
<Skiessi> :O 2 hours of discussion
<kwwii> I just posted to the forum - now I feel dirty :p
* kwwii hates forums
<lassegul> hmm. i hope that once we get a date on that meeting, maybe that'll quite things down and get people to accept the facts and start looking forward.
<lassegul> kwwii: i think you should just cut through with a time and a date in a couple of hours.
<kwwii> lassegul: yeah, if nobody responds I will do so
<kwwii> god forbid someone says that I didn't tell them about it or give them enough time to respond
<lassegul> hehe. maybe you even was trained by Redmond on how not to give community time and/or date
<lassegul> ok. Ill be off for family birthdaydinner for a little while. See you guys later.
<kwwii> see you
<damianvila> kwwii: how big do you need it?
<kwwii> damianvila: sorry for that email, I somehow forgot about the versions on the wiki :p
<kwwii> dumb of me
<damianvila> :-)
<kwwii> I am going to use the big version without the logo, ok?
<damianvila> OK :-)
<kwwii> cool
<damianvila> Uh!, I think the wiki ones are "signed"...
<damianvila> If it's going to be included with the distro you need one without a sign.
<damianvila> I'll send it to you by mail, if you don't mind
<damianvila> Or maybe you want to edit the "signature" yourself (lower-right corner)?
<kwwii> yeah, one without a sig would be good
<kwwii> hehe, no I would never put my name on your work!
<damianvila> Well, I was not counting with it being "official" :-P
<kwwii> ;-)
<kwwii> I should have said something to you earlier about that - I kinda knew I would do that for a long time
<damianvila> No problem :-)
<kwwii> I am taking off for a while...send me that pic and I will see to it that it is included
<damianvila> It's on its way right now :-)
<kwwii> excellent
<damianvila> I set the compression from 100% to 60%.
<damianvila> Around 380 KB and 480 KB for the widescreen
<kwwii> we should probably make a package with all the animal pics (and just them)
<nothlit> The forum thread is only getting more ridiculous. Comments in there are completely disrespectful and unacceptable. Should such a flame thread be shut down? We can come up with a wiki page addressing the choice, and other points informing people what really goes on...?
<nothlit> kwwii: that sounds like a good idea, theres definitely enough demand for them
<lassegul> hello everybody
<lassegul> so kwwii nobody spoke up about the schedueled time. cut through and set a time.
<nothlit> lassegul: is it set? someone spoke about wanting to have it next week
<lassegul> nothlit: yeah, but we're not going to have a discussion about that. kwwii just sets a date that noone has spoken against, and those who have other things crashing with it will have to prioritize
<lassegul> nothlit: doesnt taht sound fair?
* `23meg would appreciate thursday
<lassegul> i think that would be best as well
<kwwii> yeah, i think that thursday would be best...I'll send an email tomorrow morning if nobody says anything else
<kwwii> as long as the discussion is kept on the forum there is little worry as nobody of any importance reads the forum
<nothlit> what about giving people easy access to the correct information? or will that fuel the fire, or not worth doing?
<lassegul> I was just thinking about it. Maybe we should let things cool down for like 24 hours before we start shouting about it.
<lassegul> nothlit: what do you think?
<nothlit> lassegul: sure, waiting is fine, i don't know about shouting, even metaphorically
<lassegul> sorry, im bad with translating norwegian expressions to english :P
<lassegul> nothlit: like making a forum post for it.
<nothlit> lassegul: sure, if it was locked, otherwise, people will just continue to pursue their agendas-- but i wouldn't take any action without asking kwwii
<lassegul> kwwii: you were going to make an agenda for the meeting, right? the questions in my listmail are far to vague.
<kwwii> lassegul: yes, I am going to make an agenda
<lassegul> nothlit: if it was locked?
<lassegul> nothlit: oh you mean time date and agenda?
<nothlit> lassegul: you can lock threads so that no more posts can be made to them, i mean agenda, as in, for their own use or purpose
<lassegul> nothlit: yeah, that might be an idea.
<kwwii> I am off for evening, have fun
<lassegul> likewise
<lassegul> whats going on with the gutsy update? suddnely new default is out and chocolate is in? Or am i wrong?
<nothlit> prolly just until kwwii submits the fixed one
<kwwii> lassegul: hrm? when did you get this update? I submited a package this evening with a different version of the one that is so controversial and also included the elephant pic
<lassegul> uhm. like 20 minuits ago or something
<kwwii> no that is not chocolate
<kwwii> unless someone hijacked my package
<lassegul> hmm. look here,
<lassegul> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=555477&page=27
<lassegul> halfway donw
<lassegul> *down
<nothlit> they also quoted you out of context
<kwwii> chocolate is not in again, I know that much
<lassegul> nothlit: me who what now?
<kwwii> perhaps I did something wrong with the package or such so that the default is no longer set
<lassegul> kwwii: ok, i just checked the thread, im not actually running gutsy on my desktop computer
<kwwii> looking at the package I submitted everything seems to be in order
<kwwii> I am guessing that that info is incorrect
<lassegul> anyone on gutsy here?
<lassegul> man that would have been a stupid mistake kwwii lol.
<nothlit> lassegul: oh nm, alevin took out the quote
<lassegul> nothlit: intriguing.
<lassegul> ok. Im off to bed now. We'll talk in the morning.
<lassegul> good night
<kwwii> this misosaki guy hit the nail right on the head
<kwwii> erm, or girl, who knows
<kwwii> after a day like this, I think a nice bloody mary is the perfect way to end it
<kwwii> night all
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-09-25
<Misosaki> Hi, might be easier to communicate this way rather than through the mailing list, since there's a lively discussion going
<kwwii> hi Misosaki
<kwwii> excellent email
<Misosaki> Thanks, and thanks for responding so quickly
<kwwii> the biggest problem seems to be that we want the community to contribute but that the decision making process is not in the community's hands
<kwwii> I do admit that the way I did things turned out very poorly
<Misosaki> Yeah ... the second problem being a lot of people didn't know that
<kwwii> although I must say it was better than when we tried to do it with edgy
<kwwii> well, very few people were interested up until the point that I put the wallpaper in
<Misosaki> Well, that's why we can do better with the next release :)
<kwwii> and then everyone is pissed that I did it that way
<kwwii> I did send an email stating that this wallpaper would be defualt
<Misosaki> Yeah, it's just that people were saying they didn't know when/how/who decided that
<kwwii> but again, that is no excuse - we need to make things better in the future
<kwwii> I was hesitant to say "Mark and others have the say on things" as he is my boss
<Misosaki> That's why the Forum Ambassadors might be a good idea ... they field the bad PR lols
<kwwii> yes, very good idea
<kwwii> I hope that you can take part in the meeting
<kwwii> it will probably happen on Thursday, although that might change depending on several things
<kwwii> I will send an email to the list stating the time once we have consensus or nobody else responds
<Misosaki> Thanks ... will try to be there ... I'm glad that you and the others have arranged the meeting, to sit down and talk it out
<Misosaki> *glad => thanks lols
<nothlit> kwwii: how likely is it that sabdfl will choose a work other than yours for the default?
<kwwii> nothlit: it is not my work - not sure why everyone thinks that it is
<nothlit> Misosaki: oh, thanks for coming in
<nothlit> kwwii: your edit*
<kwwii> I have said that several times
<nothlit> sorry, i know jospeph took the source images, its just how i refer to it
<Misosaki> Np, nothlit -- good points you've got there, figured I'd come in to make talking easier
<kwwii> nothlit: the only reason that I am using a pic that I tweaked is that the one that joseph submitted is 1024x768
<nothlit> kwwii: how likely is it that a non-canonical invited/sponsored piece of artwork becomes the default wallpaper*?
<kwwii> nothlit: if Mark and others like it, it is very likely
<Misosaki> Well, maybe if it's made clearer what sabdfl wants lols?
<nothlit> because if its probable, i'll put in those monochromatic tips etc
<kwwii> the problem with that is that he wants pretty much exactly what we had in the pics i posted at top
<kwwii> but that is only for gutsy
<nothlit> Misosaki: i didn't at first because otherwise it just restricts everybody to producing the same abstract shapes and swishes
<kwwii> we will change things around for hardy
<kwwii> he sent me an email today saying that he wants to go black and orange for hardy
<Misosaki> It's often hard to work to very specific rules, since some argue that it stifles creativity, but it's also hard to go on little, because then it takes longer trying to feel out what is being asked
<kwwii> I think that it is very hard to recreate a work of art but yet somehow make it different
<nothlit> kwwii: forward me any of the guidelines and i'll transcribe them to the wiki
<kwwii> nothlit: lol, until now i was told to make it black and orange like the stuff I did for ubuntu mobile
<kwwii> nothing more, nothing less
<Misosaki> nothlit: Well, heard about the monochromatism from troy, but it wasn't stated in the wiki for the reasons kwwii just clarified
<Misosaki> But it should
<nothlit> Misosaki: afaik, what sabdfl wants is something boring, that won't offend anybody
<kwwii> he is not very good at communicating what he wants but yet he knows exactly what he wants
<Misosaki> It'd make things easier, even if it sounds draconian
<nothlit> and that isn't bright or high in contrast
<nothlit> and isn't definite in representation of anything
<nothlit> placing those guidelines down
<kwwii> that pretty much sums it up
<nothlit> would just lead to the same criticisms laid on kwwii and joesph's collaboration on everybody's work
<Misosaki> At the end, it won't be so bad ... but the guidelines, not mere suggestions, have to be there
<kwwii> I was trying to allow enough room to play so that people could still be creative
<kwwii> Misosaki: yes, you are right
<kwwii> for feisty it was totally closed and nobody complained even though in my eyes the pic I made was crap
<Misosaki> lols Well, maybe people were too creative
<kwwii> yeah
<Misosaki> Some people though the orange palette was a "suggestion" ... so there were some greys, blues and other colours
<Misosaki> *orange -> the swatch
<kwwii> yeah, apparently so
<Misosaki> Not that there's anything wrong with other colours ... but if specific colours are required, then it should be stated as a req, not a suggestion
<nothlit> it is a suggestion
<nothlit> that is a derived guessing of colours basically
<nothlit> and it wouldn't make sense to tonally match dapper exactly anyways
<kwwii> I should have been much clearer in the exact points of what had to be - that much is clear to me now
<Misosaki> kwwii: Yeah, it's hard to be creative with essentially "the same thing", but it might be done
<kwwii> I doubt we would have had many submissions, but it would have at least avoided this situation
<nothlit> so do we encourage people to follow the guidelines of utter dullness for a chance to be selected or ask them to be creative?
<kwwii> the thing that upsets me the most is that most of the people on the forum did nothing in this whole process, most are not even on the mailing list or read the wiki but yet now, after the fact they want to complain
<Misosaki> Well, seeing as "creativity" isn't encouraged lol
<damianvila> Misosaki: I was reading your mail. Very clever and straight to the point. Thanks for taking the time to say it clear.
<Misosaki> Not at all, just throwing a few suggestions out there for what they're worth ... a lot of it came from the discussion with troy yesterday
<Misosaki> Agreed with him on a number of things ... so it was a matter of trying to phrase them to make sense and offend as few people as possible in the process
<kwwii> troy would be a lot more help if we would stop being so negative about everything :p
<damianvila> And kwwii: I've always thought you should be stricter with the thing... :-) (I'd prefer that)
<kwwii> damianvila: i promise that I will be a bastard in the future :D
<Misosaki> nothlit: Thanks for the releaseschedule link -- something like that should be smack in the middle of the wiki
<Misosaki> Hi mma
<nothlit> Misosaki: yeah, but theres nothing wrong with having a whole bunch of fantastic wallpapers for an alternate selection or in the community package
<damianvila> Don't fear of putting limits, if that takes you to where you need to go...
<kwwii> one thing to know about the release schedule is that I made that up and did so purposely with extra time for things like this
<kwwii> the artwork part of the schedule, I mean
<nothlit> I would <much> prefer that to a whole pack of the same thing and stifling the ubuntu artwork community
<damianvila> Any as to why the wallpaper reverted?
<damianvila> *Any clue
<nothlit> I'll give them a choice I suppose, a sabdfl wants page
<kwwii> it was not reverted
<kwwii> I have no idea why people think that is was
<nothlit> kwwii: so Hardy is Halloween colours?
<Misosaki> nothlit: Nothing wrong at all ... choice is cool. But people are particularly anxious about the default for various obvious reasons
<kwwii> nothlit: happy halloween!
<damianvila> kwwii: so to say (I'm a designer :-) lol)
<kwwii> ;-)
<damianvila> What happened, a problem with Launchpad?
<kwwii> damianvila: here is a secret...at first I was scared that your stuff was pics stolen from somewhere  - they seemed to be too good to be real :p
<Misosaki> Just out of curiosity, kwwii, did sabdfl explain why he chose the design?
<damianvila> :-P
<Misosaki> Other than what we already know
<kwwii> Misosaki: nope, he just said that that was his favorite (and two other people said the same)
<kwwii> Misosaki: the second favorite was fire and water from my
<kwwii> myself
<kwwii> mark and others thought that the animal stuff was amazing but not suitable for default as it is too realistic
<Misosaki> Any chance we could get a statement from him or the two other people as to why and what he wants to see next?
<kwwii> I doubt that he wants to be quoted on any of this (and him being my boss I am not going to press the issue)
<kwwii> I think that he likes having me as a scape goat :p
<Misosaki> No, not quoted necessarily ... just to give the designers more clues to work with
<kwwii> again, he is not an artist and not very good at communicating his ideas
<kwwii> for the next cycle I will post some info that he sent me when I made the mobile designs and a decent palette
<kwwii> lol, that should make people laugh
<Misosaki> Did he send you any sites or sample themes? Other than the two wallpapers in the wiki
<kwwii> he got his secretary to send me a copy of a pic from an ad in a magazine...she said "this is what mark wants"
<Misosaki> Can we please see it?
<kwwii> this is the stuff for the mobile theme, for the next cycle but sure, let me find it
<damianvila> That would be funny
<kwwii> for gutsy he just said I want what we had in warty and breezy
<Misosaki> Someone will have to find a way to express that in written form
<kwwii> imagine getting a letter in the mail (the real mail) with a copy of a magazine article
<damianvila> lol
<Misosaki> kwwii: And thanks
<Misosaki> lol
<damianvila> sabdfl is not the kind of boss (or client) I like... :-P
<nothlit> kwwii: is this ok? This is a set of guidelines if you wish to be eligible as the default selection. However, I would encourage you to be more creative with your decisions and leave the defaults with those tasked with the job.
* Misosaki glances at the userlist and hopes none of them is the boss in disguise ;)
<kwwii> here is the pic I was sent: http://sinecera.de/img-6251007-0001.pdf
<kwwii> Misosaki: you do not know how often i wonder the same thing
<Misosaki> lol
<kwwii> this job is somewhat new to me and I seem to be doing it all alone without any real guidelines
<kwwii> other than "do it right"
<Misosaki> lol
<kwwii> and in addition I also do kubuntu, ubuntu mobile, etc
<nothlit> Misosaki: sabdfl comes in as 'sabdfl'
<Misosaki> At least it isn't "it has to just work"
<kwwii> funny, I do kubuntu all alone and nobody complains
<Misosaki> Maybe because this version is the "flagship" version so to speak?
<nothlit> i actually quite liked edgy kubuntu
<kwwii> Misosaki: yepp, that is how I see it
<nothlit> kubuntu is an addition just like xubuntu
<kwwii> and this being so important puts more stress on me
<nothlit> not the representative product
<Misosaki> Interesting
<Misosaki> @the ad
<kwwii> yet I have almost nobody to really discuss things with
<_MMA_> Hi Guys. Mind if I go a little off topic?
<Misosaki> Sure, mma
<_MMA_> Im Cory. Lead on the Ubuntu Studio project.
<_MMA_> I want to get the word about Ubuntu Studio-Hardy's art being opened to the community. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Artwork/OfficialHardyIncoming I'll be posting to the art ML soon. Help to further clarify the current ideas on the WIKI are welcome. I will also try to hang in here more over the Hardy development cycle ans all are welcome in #ubuntustudio.
<nothlit> _MMA_: btw wedderburns concept on deviantart is nice, besides the login execution
<_MMA_> Hi nothlit. ;)
<kwwii> Misosaki: here is a pic which shows what i did on the mobile stuff in reaction to that pic. http://sinecera.de/apps_0.3.png
<nothlit> _MMA_: heyas lol
<Misosaki> And obviously he liked the mobile work?
<kwwii> _MMA_: I can tell you right now that you should define exactly what you want in advance, trust me on this one
<kwwii> Misosaki: yepp, that turned out very well
<nothlit> kwwii: can i attach them as examples?
<Misosaki> kwwii: Good, congrats ... at least there's a bit more to work with
<kwwii> nothlit: wait a bit until we have a decent plan for everything...putting stuff out now would only confuse people
<_MMA_> kwwii: Yeah. Ive watched the drama unfold. ;)
<kwwii> nothlit: we can start posting stuff after the meeting
<damianvila> Looks like sabdfl likes something similar to some Sony/ericsson image
<kwwii> _MMA_: needless to say, we are slowly figuring out how to improve the process...there is  a meeting in the makings sometime soon, perhaps you would like to join in?
<_MMA_> nothlit: Well Andrew's stuff we werent too happy with so we did this: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-studio-users/2007-September/000559.html Then this is the final word and explanation for Gutsys art. https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-studio-users/2007-September/000588.html
<Misosaki> So far then: black/orange, generic yet vaguely meaningful by being stylish?
<_MMA_> kwwii: Sure. Ill make some reminders to habg in here more so Im more aware. I am also on the art ML.
<_MMA_> s/hanb/hang
<Misosaki> Hi dingle
<the_dingle> Hi Misosaki
<Misosaki> _MMA_: Are you looking for more artwork or...?
<damianvila> _MMA_: I like your idea. I did something in that line (punkish) some years ago for an indie record... :-)
<_MMA_> Misosaki: Not for Gutsy no.
<kwwii> _MMA_: the talk about the meeting is on the ML, check it out and let me know if you have a preference with the time
<Misosaki> For Hardy?
<_MMA_> Misosaki: Yes.
<kwwii> it seems like either thursday 20:00UTC or next week
<nothlit> _MMA_: you should post your invite to the mailing list
<Misosaki> _MMA_: Ah, okay.
<_MMA_> damianvila: Thats my background mostly. Indie rock/punk/metal. I did like sound for years.
<_MMA_> gah
<_MMA_> s/like/live
<_MMA_> nothlit: I will me. Im writing it up tonight.
<the_dingle> kwii: Has the gutsy-artwork 0.14 package been fixed?
<the_dingle> currently, nothing gets installed as the source package contains ,jpgs, and the package only installs .pngs.
<kwwii> _MMA_: the lights stuff is nice - good pic
<kwwii> pick
<kwwii> the_dingle: until now i am not sure what the problem is
<_MMA_> kwwii: Thanx. For something rushed. :)
<kwwii> I gave it to a fellow canonican for review, I assumed it would work
<kwwii> I might as well just post the pic I touched up...one second
<the_dingle> I took a look at the source package, and that seems to be the problem
<the_dingle> I'll give it a test and see
<kwwii> http://sinecera.de/warty-final-ubuntu.jpg
<kwwii> the_dingle: that is what happens when you expect an artist to do everything
<kwwii> i should know how to a) do artwork, b) work with people, c) lead a community and d) do my own packaging
<kwwii> oh, and e) communicate this all per irc, email, wiki and forum
* _MMA_ feels kwwii's pain. :)
<Misosaki> lols
<Misosaki> Not artist, artistic director ... promotion ;)
<the_dingle> I'm not blaming you, kwii, I just know how to fix this and wanted to help
<Misosaki> Although doubling as PR manager isn't very fun
<kwwii> lol, no doubt
<the_dingle> The package worked: in setup.py, change ".png" on line 18 to ".jpg"
<kwwii> and all of that for several projects
<kwwii> the_dingle: yeah, the pic changed from png to jpg
<kwwii> i did change that
<kwwii> erm, ouch....I changed that in the xml file not in the py file
<kwwii> shit
<kwwii> well, now we know why it did not work!
<the_dingle> Just missed a reference, is all
<kwwii> yeah
<_MMA_> lol. I just missed the same thing in my last update. :)
<kwwii> I'll fix it tomorrow when people are awake again
<the_dingle> Thanks, kwii
<the_dingle> later
<kwwii> the_dingle: dude, thanks to you
<kwwii> I thought that I gave the package up for review so that someone could actually check it
<Misosaki> Hi swj
<swj> hi
<kwwii> if it were up to me this would be the new wallpaper: http://sinecera.de/rainbow.jpg
<kwwii> it has every color except brown :p
<swj> just wondering, after the update today, I no longer have a default gusty wallpaper...I only the lion-clear which I added myself...is this correct?
<swj> i.e., gusty update
<kwwii> swj: I borked a python file
<kwwii> my fault
<Misosaki> kwwii: Did he say anything else about theme set or the icons?
<kwwii> http://sinecera.de/warty-final-ubuntu.jpg is the updated file
<kwwii> Misosaki: nope, I plan to change pretty much everything though
<kwwii> top down
<nothlit> Misosaki: the icons won't change from the Human set he commisioned iconfactory for, afaik
<kwwii> nothlit: they will change, if I can help it
<nothlit> kwwii: who wrote the ubuntulooks engine?
<swj> Kwwii oohh I see..thanks for answering (I am sure for 20K time) ;)
<swj> sorry
<kwwii> a couple of (very young) kids he paid to show up at a meeting
<kwwii> lol
<swj> Kwwii are the head of ubuntu art?
<swj> are you
<kwwii> swj: sure, I am getting rich doing this - I'll probably retire after hardy :p
<kwwii> swj: well, I am the only paid employee (working on ubuntu, kubuntu, ubuntu mobile and some edubuntu)
<damianvila> kwwii: why is that image so posterized? (warty-final-ubuntu.jpg)
<kwwii> if everyone knew what I earned after taxes they would stop giving me so much shit :D
<Misosaki> kwwii: Any drafts for the icons or other components other than the wallpaper yet for Hardy?
<swj> I remember mark shuttleworth writing something a long time ago (not sure where it is now) that the current color scheme is subject to change...I wonder if this is still true?
<nothlit> Misosaki: btw, i have tried to get a community effort going before, I included aim, themes, keywords, feel, mock palletes and concept art-- it fell flat on its bum
<kwwii> damianvila: the original is like that, trying to figure out how to fix it actually
<damianvila> kwwii: oh!
<kwwii> Misosaki: nope, but we will need to make that to convince you know who
<kwwii> damianvila: it is like 3000 pixels wide so it should not be a real problem
<Misosaki> nothlit: Bummer. How come? No interest?
<kwwii> I was forced to reduce the file size to 150KB today
<nothlit> Misosaki: oh and polling of ubuntu denizens
<kwwii> due to CD limits
<nothlit> Misosaki: probably, and it was most likely a little too ambitious in scope, people weren't ready for conceptually based art
<Misosaki> kwwii: Ah, okay. But something along the lines of mobile?
<kwwii> Misosaki: yepp
<_MMA_> nothlit: That's my worry as well. :(
<damianvila> kwwii: that must be it. It has artifact too due to heavy compression... :-P
<swj> Oh I found it https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MarkShuttleworth?highlight=%28mark%29%7C%28shuttleworth%29   --Will brown always be the default desktop colour?--
<nothlit> Misosaki: https://people.fluxbuntu.org/~nothlit/communitytheme/gutsy/ https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/CommunityTheme/Collaboration+Progress?highlight=%28CommunityTheme%29 https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/CommunityTheme --the keywords were chosen from a selection, by vote on launchpad
<kwwii> Misosaki: the thing is that all of my mockups for mobile use the oxygen icons set (which I started for kde4)
<Misosaki> nothlit: Pity, because the concepts would've brought something possibly outstanding to the efforts
<kwwii> Misosaki: so I guess that using that icon set is not possible for ubuntu as the gnome fans would kill me
<Misosaki> lol
<kwwii> guess I didn't mention that I am also kde art maintainter
<kwwii> s/maintainter/maintainer
<Misosaki> So you'll need a fresh set of everything?
<nothlit> kwwii: i would ^
<kwwii> Misosaki: my idea was to tweak certain parts of the tango set
<swj> I wonder what the current human icons would look like more tan or light brown in color...
<nothlit> swj: feel free to tweak them, they're svg
<kwwii> nothlit: I think that the biggest problem with those pics you made is that it changes the logo which is a branding no-no
<Misosaki> kwwii: Tango would probably work okay with black/orange
* Misosaki nods
<nothlit> kwwii: oh lol, no worries, that was just me being bored anyways
<kwwii> Misosaki: yeah, I thought the same thing...in order to convince those in charge I will need a decent mockup
<kwwii> so that will be part of the meeting as well
<nothlit> kwwii: i'll do something more normal next time
<Misosaki> lol
<nothlit> kwwii: although i had hoped to do a flat piece of worked clay with the ubuntu logo drawn out with fingers
<swj> nothlit I really dont anything about art, so I leave it to the experts...
<nothlit> swj: tweaking colour palettes is quite easy, you should try it
<kwwii> nothlit: see...exactly that is why I do not want to tell people exactly what to do in advance...I like the idea you mention but I cannot say that after you put a lot of work into it that it will be accepted
<swj> nothlit do you know of a good tutorial that would show me?
<nothlit> swj: install inkscape from the repos, and the icons are located in /usr/share/icons/Human/scalable
<nothlit> swj: lemme see
<kwwii> and if you put a lot of work into it I have to tell you "nope, no way" you will hate me
<nothlit> swj: inkscape has built in tutorials as well
<swj> I'll check it out
<swj> thanks
<kwwii> the problem with human is that not all of the icons are available as svg
<kwwii> and it does not fit with tango
<nothlit> kwwii: yeah, thats why i've only done experiments
<kwwii> in the meantime I would rather use tango as a base
<Misosaki> nothlit: Got quite a bit of work in those links -- but since we've started clarifying what is being sought, we might not need to do as much brainstorming :)
<kwwii> (did I mention that I was also one of the people who started that too)
<kwwii> but I had my fingers in too many pots
<nothlit> swj: http://tango.freedesktop.org/Tango_Icon_Theme_Guidelines theres a video there of someone creating a tango icon in inkscape
<swj> I really liked the warty brown (a lot!) so I am thinking meta changed back to warty, light brown human icons, and simple branded plain no too dark, not too light brown wallpaper...to me that would look like ubuntu
<kwwii> almost 2am here...time for sleep...see you all soon I hope
<_MMA_> Night sir.
<Misosaki> Laters kwwii
<kwwii> Misosaki: thanks again for the excellent post - I hope that we can realize your ideas
<nothlit> ttyl
<kwwii> ttyl?
<Misosaki> kwwii: Thanks for taking the time to chat
<kwwii> ta-ta you later?
<swj> thats a nice brown too "human gtk" http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php/ubuntu-chocolate?content=66733
<kwwii> Misosaki: any time, I am almost always on irc
<Misosaki> kwwii: Sure thing then, we probably won't see the last of each other then lol
<swj> nothlit thanks
<nothlit> kwwii: talk to you later
<kwwii> nothlit: ahhh, nigi (now I get it)
<kwwii> :p
<nothlit> LOL
<kwwii> I am too old for the internet
<Misosaki> lols
<Misosaki> HAGNS
<Misosaki> lol
<swj> So I guess I missed it...did kwwii say what the final wallpaper would be?
<nothlit> brownfluid
<nothlit> but lightened and noisefree, with elephant as secondary
<nothlit> the smaller resolution animal wallpapers are nicer imo though
<kwwii> Misosaki: Have A Good Nights Sleep 
<kwwii> ?
<swj> well I guess that want be so bad...that def addresses the problems I had with it
<Misosaki> What was that about being too old? ;)
<kwwii> :-)
<kwwii> I was guessing
<Misosaki> Heheh
<kwwii> swj: I think that if I can solve those two problems that it solves most of the problems in most of the peoples' eyes
<swj> kwwii hopefully so
<kwwii> but for now I need sleep
<swj> cya later
<Misosaki> nothlit: Tiny thing with Hardy wiki, but ... it says Ubuntu uses primarily brown and orange, but black/orange seems to be confirmed, so will it be changed or should we wait until at least Thursday?
<nothlit> Misosaki: this is the tentative thing https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Hardy/SABDFLWants
<nothlit> Misosaki: well those are general guidelines
<nothlit> and i've now included an additional set of guidelines for those wishing to be eligible as a default
<nothlit> but its going to be hidden until after the meeting
<Misosaki> Yeah
<Misosaki> Okay ... would be nice to see more info up after the meeting, e.g. things like using a modified Tango set
<Misosaki> The more clues sometimes, the less misunderstanding
<nothlit> people are interested in icons?
<nothlit> i don't have much to say on that, you'll have to talk to lapo
<Misosaki> Hard enough as is to make things consistent across the board
<Misosaki> Not sure, didn't kwwii just said he'd likely be tweaking the Tango set?
<kwwii> nothlit: please wait until we have the meeting and discussion to post anything
<Misosaki> But the wallpaper, for e.g., doesn't exist alone in the desktop, obviously ... there are icons on it, menubars around it
<kwwii> please, let's not rush this without nowing exactly what we are doing this time around
<nothlit> kwwii: the link is commented out on the main hardy page, and theres a tentative layout warning on the sabdfl wants page
<Misosaki> So the choice of icons set, for instance, might have an impact on other things
<Misosaki> kwwii: Okay
<kwwii> nothlit: but posting anything that I said without it coming from me is only second hand information
<nothlit> kwwii: unless you want me to delete the wiki pages until afterwards?
<kwwii> please, do delete it for now
<Misosaki> brb
<nothlit> kwwii: ok sure, sorry for the inconvenience
<kwwii> I promise we can create those pages later, after we know exactly how to go about this
<Misosaki> That's a promise :)
<_MMA_> kwwii: Will you be in Boston?
<kwwii> the first thing we need to do is to create something to convince him of what our vision is
<kwwii> _MMA_: yes, you?
<_MMA_> Cool. I look forward to talking there.
<_MMA_> Yes. Not a nice short 2hr flight this time. ;)
<kwwii> Misosaki: would you have time to head down to boston at the end of october?
<Misosaki> Sorry, no go, kwwii
<kwwii> oh well, I had to try
<Misosaki> lols Could probably do video conferencing with all of us
<Misosaki> Why?
<kwwii> Misosaki: yeah, that was my second option
<kwwii> we are having the UDS ... at that we could create a plan for the next release
<Misosaki> Cool
<kwwii> we would pay for the trip, hotel and food costs, of course
<kwwii> by that time we would have a basic plan and we could work out the finer points
<_MMA_> kwwii: Sorry if its been mentioned but is there an existing spec for this? Or is that part of what nothlit was working on?
<_MMA_> kwwii: Also, are you a guy like me who has to get up at the same time as the kids no matter what time you go to bed? :)
<kwwii> _MMA_: this is part of what nothlit and the rest of the community are woking on for the next release, yes
<kwwii> _MMA_: yes, my son (9 years old) gets up to go to high school at 6:30 and I have to take him to the bus
* kwwii is 36 (omg!)
<kwwii> so I have to get up in 4 hours
* _MMA_ is 31.
<kwwii> well, 4 hours and 8 minutes
<_MMA_> :)
<_MMA_> I have 2. 3 (boy) 5 (girl)
<kwwii> which means I *really+ have to get some sleep
<swj> highschool? are you from the US?
<_MMA_> Night sir.
<kwwii> yes, I am from the US but I live in germany
<kwwii> my son started school early (after testing, etc.)
<swj> so thats why you called in highschool...I'm from the US, but I though highschool was a US thing..maybe my ignorance
<swj> I've never been out of the country
<kwwii> yepp, highschool is an american thing
<nothlit> form1?
<swj> makes sense now
<kwwii> here is it called Gymnasium
<nothlit> interesting
<swj> yes...I agree..interesting
<kwwii> nothlit: where do you live?
<nothlit> Hong Kong
<nothlit> i'm canadian
<kwwii> perhaps you and lassegul would be interested in coming?
<nothlit> *blinks* maybe
<nothlit> i thought you would have invited troy/damian
<swj> Hong Kong...I saw on 1 against 100 the other than britain owned Hong Kong not long ago...that was very interesting
<swj> 1 against 100 is a game show
<kwwii> troy has attended one...if he would not be so negative I would invite him again
<_MMA_> lol
<_MMA_> Troy's alright. Just passionate. :)
<kwwii> damian is a great artist, not sure how much he would be interested in working on the process though - perhaps he would be the right person
<kwwii> _MMA_: yes, and he knows what he is talking about to an extent (I think he lacks a bit of experience in this sector)
<kwwii> but if he is alway so negative I find it hard to invite him
<_MMA_> kwwii: He helps us out somewhat as well.
<_MMA_> (us=Ubuntu Studio)
<kwwii> OSS distro design is not like 100% like artwork
<_MMA_> Get some sleep! :)
<kwwii> there are important differences and being positive about changing things is imporatant
<kwwii> important
<kwwii> anyway
<kwwii> really time for sleep
<kwwii> nothlit, lassegul: lets talk tomorrow about the UDS
<kwwii> and for now, sleep
<swj> I thought of something...someone mentioned something about black/orange theme...if that was released in October...in the US it would look like halloween...
<kwwii> swj: no doubt! but this is for the next release, not gutsy
<_MMA_> kwwii: Get some sleep. Tomorrow if you're around Id like to talk about Ubuntu Studio's possible UI change. (panel layouts really)
<kwwii> so not worries
<swj> good timing
<swj> ;)
<kwwii> and it is not totally orange and black in that sense
<kwwii> _MMA_: love to
<Misosaki> Hi 23meg
<`23meg> hello
<Misosaki> Thanks for the suggestion re Forum Ambassadors
<`23meg> good to know you like it
<`23meg> I briefly read your mails; will read in more detail tomorrow
<Misosaki> nods -- good to at least have the ideas out there for the next release
<`23meg> right
<melare1> Ok, so I've been following the artwork discussion for a while (regarding the much disputed wallpaper)...
<melare1> I understand the argument that the people on the forums (and members of the Digg community) may not be representative of the whole.  ...or at least they may not be Ubuntu's target market.
<melare1> However I also think that it is very important that we do not upset these people.  ...many of these are very loyal Ubuntu followers.
<melare1> Anyway, I guess the question is, who is our target market?  Are we working to get any feedback\input from them?
<nothlit> the official line, from what i've heard is everybody
<melare1> ok
<nothlit> and to that end, artwork cannot be offensive to ANYBODY
<melare1> right
<nothlit> so we get blurs and swishes, because animals can be offensive as well
<nothlit> in the tighter sense
<nothlit> the default art target market is sabdfl (mark shuttleworth)
<melare1> But there seems to be some resistance to what the community has to say about the artwork.  Would it be better if we polled random people?
<nothlit> if you look on the mailing list, theres talk of using the ambassadors as a liason between the forums and the artwork contributors
<melare1> Yeah, I've heard about that...
<nothlit> the difficulty of setting up polls in an open and widespread fashion, is its easy for people to misintrepret and think that they're deciding the artwork for ubuntu
<melare1> But I think what they need to realize is that if they do that, they will actually (or should) act on the feedback from the community (that is being relayed).
<nothlit> when thats not the case, none of the community, not even the so called artwork team has such a say
<melare1> I'm talking about going to a university and showing people visual choices and having them rate accordingly...
<melare1> people who aren't even associated with the project.  ...true unbiased users
<melare1> ..or like my boss at work
<nothlit> oh, focus groups, that sounds pretty great
<melare1> it's a total Windows shop...  I show them Ubuntu, but the first thing they do is change the theme and the background because they don't think it looks good.
<nothlit> melare1: you should join the meeting, its on thursday, 20:00 UTC < note the time zone, IIRC, check the mailing list
<melare1> I'll try if I don't have class...
<melare1> But we can't keep doing this as  a community...  Ubuntu has a big name now.  We have Dell pre-installs and people like Walt-Mossberg looking...
<nothlit> speaking of which, i expected better journalism from the wall street journal
<melare1> Supposedly there is a marketing group for Ubuntu, but are they involved in this process?  ...it seems like they should be.
<melare1> hehe, yeah it was pretty short
<melare1> ...if I remember right
<nothlit> the marketing group, no, they haven't participated
<nothlit> the marketing group is unofficial grassroots marketing with no budget
<melare1> yeah
<_MMA_> melare1: You also have to remember Dell is free to change the look of the Ubuntu they install.
<melare1> but there are still things they could do.  Surveys at universities are fairly painless.  ...people just assume you are doing it for a statistics class or something.
<melare1> True, Dell and any other manufacturer can modify...  But at the same time it is something that can be a real buzz-kill for newbies (or people like Walt-Mossberg).  Or even my boss.  We want to impress these people every step of the way.
<melare1> I'll be honest I haven't been the biggest fan of the brown theme.  ...but I wouldn't change it or anything, I understand that it is part of Ubuntu's brand by this point.  Actually I don't think people know what they like until they are shown...  Brown could work very nicely if implemented properly.  But up to this point that's where we've been lacking.
<nothlit> brown has been implemented nicely, in the animal wallpapers, troy's etc
<melare1> Yeah, I agree.  The animal wallpapers are very nice.  ...and unique.
<nothlit> melare1: you should pitch your collaboration ideas to #ubuntu-marketing
<melare1> Hopefully he'll continue on with his contributions. :)
<melare1> Alrighty, I need to eat dinner, but I'll see what they have to say in a bit. :)
<melare1> thanks for the feedback guys...
<nothlit> melare1: yeah, damian has jumped into the irc/mailing list as well
<KurtKraut> Where can I find OO Presentation templates with Ubuntu logo ? There used to be some templates in wiki.ubuntu.com     AfterDeath
<KurtKraut>                        but I can't find it anymore.
<KurtKraut> (sorry, it was a bad formated paste from weechat, but my question is true)
<dmccal1> I've discovered some nice brownish photographs I could add to the Hardy ideas page. Is there a policy with non-scalable graphics?
<nothlit> dmccal1: yeah, same as the conceptart page
<nothlit> no taller than 240pixels thumbnail
<nothlit> with link to the larger size
<nothlit> dmccal1: thanks for taking the effort to check
<dmccal1> As for the full image, should I aim at a particular aspect ratio and size?
<dmccal1> I'm going to sleep, actually, but thanks in advance to whoever answers! Good night. (And thank you for the answer, too, nothlit).
<troy_s1> <kwwii> troy would be a lot more help if we would stop being so negative about everything :p
<troy_s1> What a load of tripe
<troy_s1> I am negative because of the bullshit that I have seen peddled in Ubuntu for far too long.
<troy_s1> _AND_ the situation I went through in Edgy which was spun as some failure on the part of the community.
<troy_s1> It is total horseshit.  So, sorry, but get with the program.
<troy_s> Apologies, but I also have had many a private conversation with a good number of people on this, and quite frankly, the comments regarding 'community' and such have ranged from the outrageous to just plain rude.
<melare1> troy_s, Yeah, I think we have a wealth of information available to us from the Ubuntu members.  Some of it is great and quite useful, some of it isn't as useful.  But I think every bit of it should be considered a valuable contribution.  We should not forget that the forum members are some of the most passionate Ubuntu users.  In fact, Ubuntu's large community separates the distro from the rest of the pack.
<troy_s> I have zero problem with anyone offering statements about me or my work.  It is ironic the statements about 'negativity' however.  I'll leave it at that.
<nothlit> nothing wrong with concerned forum members, even if they lash out the most dire critisicms, like I'm sorry to say this, but all of this is utter trash
<nothlit> however, misinformed flaming is not something acceptable nor something useful
<nothlit> they're getting worked up about the wrong facts, and are just spouting nasty comments--that isn't passionate, i'm afraid... its something else
<troy_s> nothlit: That would be the side of the coin known as transparency -- which isn't something that just 'happens'.  All in all, I find the whole thing quite amusing.
<troy_s> nothlit: It is wonderful to see people actually caring about the default art/design.
<troy_s> night all.
<lassegul_> good morning people
<lapo> hi
<lassegul> reading back. you people should really get to bed earlier, its important that you get enough sleep :)
<lassegul> lapo: hi
<lassegul> lapo: tangerine is really growing on me
<lassegul> lapo: what is your future plans for tangerine?
<lapo> lassegul: frankly speaking I'd like to kill it :-)
<lassegul> lapo: haha!
<lassegul> lapo: what if you got some help?
<lapo> lassegul: the RightThingToDo(TM) is push nice icons upstream, not use an icon theme to fill the hole
<lapo> s
<lassegul> lapo: to gnome?
<lapo> lassegul: applications in general
<lassegul> lapo: ok.
<lassegul> lapo: but the RightThingToDo(TM) is what you are planning to do?
<lapo> example, scim has an ugly icon, that's an application bug
<lapo> lassegul: anyway I'll continue trying to make ubuntu pretty iconwise
<lapo> I'd like to kill tangerine and do something else
<lassegul> lapo: I have no experience in iconmaking, but i would assume that icons are more a collaborative project than say... wallpapers
<lapo> lassegul: no idea, I don't have contributions for tangerine usually
<lapo> gnome-icon-theme is mostly a one man thing as well atm
<lassegul> lapo: as long as you have decent guidelines, and skilled people, you can together agree on metaphors, and rest will look unified even though their made by different people?
<lassegul> lapo: and tango?
<lapo> tango icon theme is kinda untouched latelly
<lassegul> lapo: but when it was made, was it a oneman project=
<lapo> tango pixelpushers as andreasn or hylke are pushing tango icons upstram tho
<lapo> I had several contribution to gnome icon theme
<lapo> tho
<lapo> and there were a lot of them for t-i-t as well
<lapo> we have guidelines and we have a community, it works :-)
<lassegul> interesting
<lapo> anyway there are a pair of picky bastards who sit on top of g-i-t and t-i-t and carefully watch what goes in and what not (I'm one of those :-))
<lassegul> lapo: what is the 5 most basic icons. If you should start an icontheme what five icons would it be?
<lassegul> *five first
<lapo> folder and folder derived icons + trash
<lapo> then probably navigation arrows and stuff and hw bits
<lapo> well visible hw bits
<lapo> computer and computer derived icons
<lassegul> lapo: yeah. I was thinking, if you were to start a new theme, you first make these icons and perfect them, then make written guidelines, and put them to a wiki page. You invite people to join. What do you think would happen?
<lapo> check what's in crux icon theme for example
<lapo> lassegul: mostly nothing :-)
<lassegul> lapo: i expected that :)
<lapo> lassegul: have a 'working' community around artwork is a difficult thing, nearly impossible :-)
<lapo> tango is a nice exception
<lapo> lassegul: the problems in artwork communities are different tastes
<lassegul> lapo: im just checking out what is possible, plausible and so on.
<lapo> the community must recognize "authorities" for technical or artistic merits
<lapo>  or experience
<lassegul> lapo: but if you had these first, say 10, icons, and you say: "This is my project, and we dont change the guidelines or style. Dont like it? Dont join!" Still we would push people to join, with personalized invitations to people who makes good art.
<lapo> that's how it worked with tango
<lassegul> lapo: Now lets say we DID get people to join, would their contributions look "all wrong" even if the basic icons are up on display and guidelines are good?
<lapo> possible
<lapo> I'm not sure which is the right way, I can tell you how it worked in tango btw
<lassegul> please do
<lapo> tango was started by the best and most experienced pixel pushers in the community
<lapo> for example jimmac, garret, tig
<lapo> they created most of the icons around so they had experience and technical merits
<lapo> people recognized them as leaders, especially jimmac which was the most active in the project
<lapo> so it was clear who has authority not for imposition but for merits on field
<lapo> for example if jimmac criticized my work I wasn't upset, but kinda honored
<lassegul> I see.
<lapo> there are other things surelly, a friendly environment for example
<lapo> and our guidelines which are simple but effective
<lapo> for example when I see a really bad icon i never say "it sucks", I say "it can be improved" and I offer advice
<lapo> s/I/we/
<lapo> if a discussion goes nowhere we don't block the process we try something and see the effects
<lapo> that happened for the g-i-t search icon for example
<lassegul> do you have a link for this icon? just curios
<lapo> lassegul: http://people.freedesktop.org/~jimmac/icons/#git under action, edit-search
<lassegul> hmm
<lapo> edit-find
<lapo> not search
<lassegul> there we go. ok.
<lapo> the point is that as in the business the decisional process cannot be stopped
<lapo> and if a decision is not ok for you you have to trust your leaders and go on w/o leaving the community
<lapo> that's the difficult part
<lassegul> ok. i catch your drift.
<lapo> and I think it can be reached only if you think your 'leader' is good for some reason
<lassegul> yeah, thats pretty generic
<lapo> for me for example the leader as to be good for merits on field
<lapo> I can't trust words alone for example
<lassegul> for others it might be a good feedback, usually its a combination of several things.
<lapo> sure
<lapo> there's a lot of things to do to build a community but it's kinda black magic and not a strict and defined  process
<lassegul> no, its pretty generic organisational psychology. But its online, so it some methods for creating trust, authority etc. wont work.
<lassegul> *-it
<lassegul> lapo: my goal differs somewhat from yours, i think.
<lassegul> lapo: you want to make a really good icon theme.
<lassegul> lapo: i want to create a community that activates a good deal of people, both experienced with ubuntu artwork, and people who arent in to the game, and give them the possibility and resources to make something decent.
<lapo> lassegul: I don't want to make a good icon theme, btw :-)
<lassegul> lapo: im not talking overall goals, im just talking in this situation.
<lapo> lassegul: design by community usally don't work, bikeshed issues all over the place
<lapo> that's the biggest problem
<lassegul> lapo: yeah, i see.
<lapo> and artwork community spend more time arguing about silly things then working actually
<lapo> s/and/an/
<lapo> and that's bad and it's an energy stop for people how do the work
<lassegul> lapo: maybe that is an infrastructure problem.
<lassegul> lapo: to a limited extent
<lapo> lassegul: not sure
<lapo> lassegul: you can't really do too much infrastructure tho
<lapo> lassegul: if there is a strict process for stuff to go in, it will be limitating
<lapo> 'causey you need more energy to follow this process then working on stuff
<lapo> and that's an energy stop
<lapo> lassegul: I think tango community work because there isn't any specific process
<lapo> for t-i-t there's just jimmac sitting on the repository, you get it's approval and it goes in
<lapo> if you think you're right you just discuss with him, you don't start a flame war with the whole community
<lapo> heya andreasn
<andreasn> hi lapo
<lapo> s/it's/his/
<lassegul> lapo: hear me out. If you had a webpage, where you have categories, like NavigationIcons-->Backbutton, then you could have different versions. The different versions would stand up against each other, and only one will be picked in the end. The leader picks his set of icons, but some dude that doesnt agree with that will make his own set and start his own icon theme. An infrastructure that also will let him do his fork, and serve his work.
<andreasn> hey dudes, what are you chatting about?
<lapo> andreasn: artwork community making I think :-)
<lassegul> andreasn: im just trying to explore what you can do with community in icons.
<lassegul> andreasn: seems its kinda hard :P
<lapo> lassegul: the forks are not a problem
<andreasn> nah, you just draw some stuff and then you put it in mostly :)
<lapo> lassegul: everybody can fork, but they need to be better then the people working on the main project to produce something nicer
<lapo> lassegul: and for icons for example, just having to put the icon on such a page is too much work
<andreasn> the secret might lie in that you decide to draw icons for something like dia, instead of discussing folder icon design
<lapo> lassegul: consider you have tons of icons
<lapo> andreasn is right
<lapo> working not talking, that's the trick mostly :-)
<lassegul> lapo: hm. maybe, but i think most of the traditional ways of doing thing, even though it might be more effective, seems a little hard for many. So if you could wrap the process up in a nice web page, you could get a lot more people to contribute.
<lapo> lassegul: if you have many contributions, surelly most of them will be bad
<lapo> or at least not good enough, but you still have to scan them all
<lapo> and lose time there
<lapo> having an ml and a channel for tango is enough for example
<lassegul> ml?
<lapo> mailing list
<lapo> if a contributor is really interested in the project he will join the channel or drop messages on the mailing list
<lapo> we don't want endless discussion, so I see a "choose the one you like most" page quite bad
<lassegul> ok, yeah. so when you want some icons in, you send it to jimmac?
<lassegul> by mail or ftp or whatever, no standardized way of doing that?
<lapo> for example if I do an icon for g-i-t which I'm not sure about I'll surelly ask andreasn, jimmac, dobey or the other guys if it's good then I'll commit it eventually
<lapo> exact
<lapo> jimmac, andreasn, garrett or myselft
<lapo> dobey, well who can upload to repos
<lapo> if jimmac draw an icon I think it's bad, I'll touch it up the reverse is true as well
<lassegul> I would imagine that many people thought to them selves; "hey, those tango icon guidelines looks good, i would like to make some too. But, how can i send them in?" And then he goes to deviantart, and creates something spectacular there.
<lassegul> but not tango at all.
<lapo> lassegul: that's happen
<lapo> it happened that we contacted the authors of nice stuff
<lapo> to get his contribution in
<lapo> lassegul: anyway andreasn is gnome artistic 'dictator' I think he know every quirk of an artwork community now, so feel free to ask him :-)
<lapo> right andreasn? :-)
<lapo> especially about wallpapers I believe :-)
<lassegul> lapo: because this model you described is obviously designed for techies in small groups. I can never imagine an art studen who just made the switch to ubuntu realize they must go into #tango and talk with jimmac.
<lassegul> lapo: and then youve potentialy lost a great artist.
<lapo> s/jimmac/andreasn, dobey, garrett, tig and even lapo/ :-)
<lassegul> i get it.
<lapo> lassegul: if the artist is interested in working with that community he will do if he doesn't better not to have him onboard
<lapo> that's my point of view naturally, I'm not speaking for tango project naturally
<lassegul> lapo: but everyone starts as uninterested. then they see some tango icons, and some get interested. Then they see the webpage, then even more get interested, if they speak with you, meaby another 10% gets interested.
<lassegul> lapo: interest is relative, is my point.
<lapo> sure but the first thing you need to focus on is getting the work done not the community itself
<lapo> if the community gets in the way or the process you build or something else you will end up with nothing
<lassegul> yeah
<lapo> so better to have no infrastructure or a very simple one then a huge one which gets in the way too many times
<lassegul> lapo: true, but isnt it possible to create a way to get involved with icons that is so easy that everyone will see it as obvious from the start?
<lassegul> lapo: coming to #tango and saying "Ive got some icons, anyone care to take a look" isnt happening very much, i guess.
<lapo> lassegul: no idea, what I can tell you is that what we have in tango works and there's only a wiki with "joing #tango channel or write to the mailing list if you wanna contribute"
<lapo> lassegul: it happens all the time
<lapo> lassegul: and we have a look
<lassegul> ok lol :)
<lapo> lassegul: I join the project like that
<lapo> the jimmac, andreasn, garrett and the other guys had the patience to teach me how to make tango style icons :-)
<lassegul> lapo: but if I were to draw some blueprints for some other infrastructure, for it to attractive to you, it would have to be effiecient(lots of icons gets prosessed at once), and that discussions dont hinder the actual work.
<lassegul> *for it to be attractive*
<lapo> lassegul: we're in the oss world not in a business, remember this :-)
<lassegul> lapo: how come? Or what do you mean?
<lapo> lassegul: what I say is that something which work in a business is not always working for oss
<kwwii_away> moin
<lassegul> hi
<`23meg> hi there
<lassegul> oh hi `23meg, didnt see you come in.
<kwwii> what a morning
<lassegul> ok?
<kwwii> they removed the elephant pic due to the CD size
<kwwii> so I screamed about that
<lassegul> How did it turn out?
<kwwii> and now it turns out that the default pic has to be a png file
<kwwii> they are putting it back in, after half an hour on the telephone
<kwwii> ok, after discussion with others the meeting will have to be next week
<lassegul> ok.
<kwwii> I am trying to get Jono or someone of his community calibre to attend and help out a bit
<lassegul> cool
<kwwii> once I get a response from him  I will send an email with the time and date of the meeting
<kwwii> I think that tuesday at 20:00 sounds good
<kwwii> then I will post an idea about the agenda and we can discuss that, add to it, etc
<lassegul> sounds good. Trying to get in contact with some of those people who have been critizising the wallpaper and the process, like garba, to open a dialogue, but i havent gotten any replys yet.
<kwwii> forget it, they do not want to talk, they want to complain
<lassegul> well it didnt take much effort, and maybe something interesting will come out of it.
<kwwii> good luck
<lapo> kwwii: so the default wallpaper is changed?
<kwwii> lapo: no it is the same pic just a different version but now they changed it to png so I have no idea about the quality
<lassegul> but the newer version, if ive seen the real deal, stil has some blocks in it?
<lapo> kwwii: librsvg renders gradients badly if it got converted with inkscape it is probably be better
<kwwii> it is not an svg, it is a photo
<lapo> so it was a jpg?
<kwwii> yepp
<kwwii> and after converting it to png the file size is much larger so they wanted to remove the elephant pic
<lapo> kwwii: well then the quality is the same
<kwwii> after screaming on irc and a few telephone calls it is back in though
<kwwii> our problems will not be solved with the beta it seems
<lapo> elephant?
<lassegul> what problem?
<lapo> isnt' the uhm... brownfluid the defalt?
<lapo> that's what I used in the wallpaper of the monitor icons in tangerine
<kwwii> lapo: yes, it is still the brown fluid pic, just a bit lighter
<lapo> ah ok
<lassegul> `23meg: you there?
<`23meg> yes
<lassegul> `23meg: About your idea on how to Forum Ambassadors add comments from forum thread to wiki page of the contribution.
<`23meg> yes?
<lassegul> `23meg: since contributors can edit those wiki pages, what stops users from editing the wiki page themselves and add their own comments directly? Can you lock a wiki page?
<lassegul> `23meg: or what was the idea here?
<`23meg> the idea is that 1) people find wiki pages intimidating 2) we wouldn't want too many redundant and not-so-useful comments flooding the wiki pages
<lassegul> `23meg: What if we said that contributions are added by making a thread in some forum category. Then Forum Ambassadors creates the wiki page for it?
<lassegul> That way everything would be standardized, and actually easier for the contributers.
<`23meg> I don't exactly get it; could you rephrase? do you mean contributions of artwork, or comments?
<lassegul> yeah, contributions of artwork gets added as a thread with an attachement in some forum category. Then the FA makes the wiki page for the artwork contributors, report in the thread that the wiki page has been created and link to the wiki main art page where an index of all artwork contributions is placed.
<lassegul> `23meg: By linking to the main art page with the index you could also have some overveiw of the process of picking the final artwork, so that noone gets it wrong.
<`23meg> sure, that can work
<`23meg> but there's not too much artwork contribution from the forums, as far as I'm aware
<`23meg> and I guess people who do contribute can add to the wiki pages themselves, or we can guide them one by one in the worst case
<lassegul> `23meg: this would  add a little more work to the forum ambassadors. On the plus side, artists dont have to know how to edit wiki pages, the wiki pages can be locked to all except FA, and everone gets sent to the main page with an index.
<`23meg> I don't think there's a way to lock wiki pages to a certain group
<`23meg> It's not really needed either
<lassegul> `23meg: no actually not
<lassegul> `23meg: no your right, this method is not needed. i was just fiddling with variations and tried to think of a way to keep people starting from a main incoming artwork page with an index and more importantly something about how this wont be a forum poll, to keep away confusion. I think it was alvevind that said that the user contributions automatically gave him the impression that this was going to be a democratic decission.
<lassegul> `23meg: that can be avoided in some other way.
<`23meg> I agree
<`23meg> reading the latest posts in the thread, I'm getting a bit hopeless about it though
<lassegul> `23meg: you are talking about automatic assumption of democratic decission?
<`23meg> yes, and about people's whole perception of Ubuntu being limited with the forums
<lassegul> the thing is, if we are going to encourage people to contribute, the automatic assumption thing will be even stronger. therefore we must actively stop that from happening. in some way... :-)
<kwwii> 7me gets lunch
<kwwii> erm
* kwwii gets lunch
<kwwii> lol, just heard a story about a guy getting all pissy because he thinks that the community should decide how canonical spends their money
<lassegul> hello socialist utopia
<lassegul> lol
<kwwii> before I go, one question: are you guys ok with doing the meeting at 1700 UTC?
<`23meg> kwwii, I'm fine
<kwwii> lassegul
<lassegul> me too
<kwwii> ?
<kwwii> cool
<lassegul> thats 1900 pm in berlin time right?
<kwwii> ok, so I will say it will be at 17:00 UTC on tuesday
<lassegul> good
<lassegul> `23meg: about the thing with ubuntu being limited to the forums, this also kicks in: Either you could accept that, go with the flow and let everything wich can be done in the forums stay in forums. i think the method i described above, where art contributors actually adds art contribs to the forums. Or one could try to educate the forumusers, and lead them on to the wiki, mailinglists and IRC.
<`23meg> I side with the latter approach, but I'm also doubtful of whether it can work to any meaningful extent
<`23meg> things staying on the forums really doesn't help
<lassegul> i think its wierd some of those people from the thread dont show up here. If they wanted to discuss, it would have been much quicker to done it on IRC
<`23meg> people keep starting threads about "bugs" that they don't report on the bug tracker
<`23meg> and we instruct them to file bugs one by one, even though the bug tracker link is on the top of the page
<artnay> just make a sticky to forums (both art and design + devel version) in which you state the most important links and some guidelines
<`23meg> it's because they only care about the forums
<artnay> `23meg: I bet that's because they're not sure if it's a bug or not OR they just want some credit for finding a bug
<`23meg> they don't care to learn what IRC is, how to connect, whom to talk to and how, etc.
<lassegul> `23meg: yeah but if the procedure was that the FA would then report it in the bug tracker for them it would have been ok.
<lassegul> `23meg: not that im saying you should do that, but just as an example
<`23meg> artnay, the cases in which they're not sure it's a bug are separate
<`23meg> I have no problem with that
<artnay> blaeh, just don't notify about those bugs at devel version
* lassegul got inspired to lunch.
<`23meg> lassegul, we can't possibly file bugs on behalf of people. we'd both be outnumbered, and many bugs can be reproduced on certain configurations only
<`23meg> we try to teach them to fish, not give them fish
<lassegul> `23meg: but i was using it as an example as how art contributors could add to the forum instead of making a wiki page
<`23meg> I know
<artnay> klepas: hey
<`23meg> we'll discuss that in the meeting then
<lassegul> i dont know. i think we should limit this meeting to the very big issues, then sort out the details later. Lets see kwwiis agenda, then take it from there.
<lassegul> lunch is serverd
<lassegul> *severd
<lassegul> **served
<artnay> just keep the discussion on forums (all these 'I like it', 'change the brown/orange' threads) but every constructive work of art and comment to wiki/launchpad
<artnay> you should define the separation between launchpad and wiki as it's not clear at the moment (imho)
<`23meg> artnay, that was the gist of my first suggestion
<klepas> artnay: hey dude!
<klepas> sup?
<artnay> klepas: I'm fine, you? finally some action here, eh? ;-)
<klepas> yea :P
<klepas> i'm going pretty good
<artnay> `23meg: ok then. I haven't been following the discussion here (backlog seems to be huge though) but it's good to see something happening
<artnay> for example the whole artwork process is much more open now than it was before i.e. dapper
<artnay> now we (as a community) at least know the rules concerning artwork. and now people are given guidelines by people in charge
<`23meg> sure; I have hope that the next meeting will really be beneficial
<artnay> I see that as a good thing since back in 2005 nobody outside canonical (well except AndyFitz and a few others) knew about workflows of ubuntu-artwork
* klepas applies at the ANU
<lassegul> anu?
<artnay> klepas: done any work lately? I've been busy mainly with moin and plone but there's something at http://artnay.iki.fi
<artnay> mostly 600 though ;-)
<klepas> artnay: yea
<klepas> http://klepas.deviantart.com
<klepas> lassegul: Australian National University
<klepas> mhh.. weird
<klepas> "Error, email address cannot contian lowercase characters [a-z] ! Please re-enter the email address."
<klepas> w00t done :)
<klepas> https://www.anu.edu.au/newmedia/
<kwwii> lapo: could you send me an SVG version of your effects icons, I wanted to try something out tomorrow
<lapo> kwwii: sorry, I don't have them here, anyway macslow should have the package
<kwwii> lapo: cool, I'll bug him then :-)
<kwwii> thanks
<lapo> np
<nothlit`alpha> lassegul: `23meg: i thought the plan was to post concept/progress art from the wikis onto the forums in a wip thread by the ambassadors which would relay information back?
<lassegul> nothlit`alpha: yeah, thats the plan. I was just playing with the idea of doing it the other way around
<nothlit`alpha> i suppose that could work, we'd still need to mirror it in a central place though, and create a subforum for this stuff
<nothlit> i personally, dislike forums myself though-- pages and pages of the same thing that I don't have the time to read
<nothlit> so the meeting is moved to tuesday 1800 UTC?
<lassegul> nothlit`alpha: itll be 1800 utc
<lassegul> *make that 1700 UTC
<lassegul> nothlit`alpha: probably. The official mail hasnt been sent out yet, but everything is pointing in that direction. Tuesdag 17:00
<lassegul> whats with the two nicks?
<nothlit`alpha> i have an extra one on a shell server
<nothlit`alpha> i keep it just in case of d/cs, etc
<Misosaki> lassegul: How would the other way around work?
<lassegul> nothlit: the thing is the forum thread as well as some of the mails on the mailing lists indicate that some of the users "autmatically assume that this will be a democratic decision". My theory is that if we push harder on people, this will happen more. Therefore we should find some way to counter that "automatic assumption"
<lassegul> *push harder on people to contribute and get active.
<nothlit> for that, we can include an explanatory introduction whereever artwork is introduced/ displayed/ asked for
* lassegul is doped up on paracets, has a  bad cold.
<Misosaki> A lot of people made that assumption because the process wasn't spelled out as clearly as it could've been.
<lassegul> nothlit: Misosaki: you are both right.
<Misosaki> There's still the element of community input and collaboration, but people should also be aware that there are people assigned to make "informed decisions" based on what is being provided by the community.
<nothlit> informed decisions?
<lassegul> hehe
<nothlit> i'm not sure those making the decisions care about community opinion
<nothlit> they choose what they think of as right for the product
<Misosaki> It would also help if people understand the rationale behind a design choice ... positive things about the choice
<nothlit> the same way if you told colgate you thought of a totally awesome way for them to advertise their product
<Misosaki> nothlit: Yeah, "informed decisions" is something of a euphemism ... but the impression the public should get is that some thought and consideration went behind the choice
<Misosaki> And that it wasn't chosen for some random reason
<lassegul> we need to create some authority around kwwii
<Misosaki> Once a decision has been made, and of course design decisions are often subjective ... but as long as it can be backed up properly, it'd make transitioning easier
<lassegul> or something that can make the uninformed understand that he/his boss is the right person to pick the wallpaper
<Misosaki> lassegul: That, or what makes the design stand out?
<lassegul> Now its just a faceless shadow that picks the wallpaper.
<Misosaki> What does it mean for Ubuntu and the image it's trying to present to the public?
<lassegul> Misosaki: that as well.
<_MMA_> Misosaki: I personally always thought " thought and consideration went behind the choice". People will always find something to bitch about no matter how much info you put out.
<lassegul> _MMA_: the reaction is always triggered by some action.
<Misosaki> _MMA_: There's putting out "facts", and there's putting out a convincing argument in support of a decision
<lassegul> _MMA_: if you change the action the reaction will also change.
<Misosaki> To obscure or leave the process looking foggy and people will be distrustful
<_MMA_> Misosaki: Ubuntu to me is rather transparent. What "convinces" some people will never be enough for others. Just the way it goes.
<Misosaki> _MMA_: It's transparent in many aspects, but things could be clearer still
<_MMA_> See. Your opinion. :)
<lassegul> _MMA_: yeah once you know where to look or who to talk to its real transparent. If all you know is the forums, we must first direct them to the wiki, and the information must be clear there.
<Misosaki> Imho, most of what had happened was mostly the result of misconceptions, misunderstandings
<_MMA_> Thats all Im saying. ;)
<Misosaki> lassegul: Yeah
<nothlit> _MMA_: they're just harumphed that animal isn't what was chosen as they assumed it to be, so they assume that those choosing must be... lacking
<_MMA_> nothlit: Sure.
<nothlit> if the choice was something that they thought deserved it, they might praise those who made such a choice
<_MMA_> lassegul: Then I feel its up to users to explore as well.
<lassegul> yeah, but the better they know the person and the more faith they have im him, the more tolerance they have for their favorite not getting picked
<Misosaki> Yeah, but if one can explain why the chosen one is better ... but so far, please correct me if this is wrong, but there hasn't been much in the way of explaining that choice
<lassegul> _MMA_: that would be a moral issue.
<Misosaki> Other than it's starting to be better known who makes the choice
<_MMA_> lassegul: And something not to blame Ubuntu/Canonical for.
<Misosaki> Just "who" isn't going to explain it, except to the cynical ... people are looking at the Animals set and like it, but because something else was chosen, they're struggling to understand why
<lassegul> _MMA_: what im saying is that we need to have a practical view on this. All users SHOULD be on the mailing lists, but they dont, and we must find ways to work with tha.
<Misosaki> Some probably downright don't want to listen, and that's fine .. but some people are just plain puzzled
<lassegul> *+t
<_MMA_> lassegul: Sure. I am of the opinion that users need to learn with the development community as much as we need to help things.
<Misosaki> When people don't know for sure, that's when confusion and other less pleasant things start circulating
<kwwii> re
<_MMA_> WIKI/ML/Forum. Its not hard.
<lassegul> _MMA_: Let's make it easier :)
<_MMA_> You dont even have to be on the list to search/read the archives.
<Misosaki> That's why Forum Ambassadors could be a very good thing ... people to keep the record straight
<_MMA_> Misosaki: I agree.
<kwwii> after talking to several people I think I have a pretty good idea of how we need to proceed
<kwwii> Forum Ambassadors are a good idea
<_MMA_> Misosaki: But call me cynical. Coming from a user->dev, most users just dont care and love to bitch.
<kwwii> and as several people have pointed out: I need to clearly define *everything* so that nobody mistakes things or forms their own ideas because the information is hard to find
<kwwii> _MMA_: that is a very good point and I doubt it will ever change
<_MMA_> I sadly know.
<kwwii> we do need to hear what they are saying but we do not necessarily have to do everything they say
<lassegul> _MMA_: even though we cant force all the users to care, and keep them from complaining, what you are saying is too black/white
<Misosaki> _MMA_: Yeah, there're often people like that ... but listen to what they have to say anyway, and make sure 1) the decision-makers are confident in their choices, and 2) the rest of the public are informed as to why those choices were made and how they benefit Ubuntu
<kwwii> and we need a good way to communicate between the different parts
<Misosaki> That will help keep the FUD down
<kwwii> Misosaki: exactly
* _MMA_ hopes kwwii gets a secretary to help him with all the documentation. (Its a job in and of itself)
<lassegul> The level of how much and many users care can be changed by us.
<Misosaki> That and a robot to churn out massive doses of coffee
<lassegul> By good information, communication etc.
<Misosaki> ;)
<_MMA_> :)
<Misosaki> lassegul: nods
<kwwii> I think that half of this current problem exists because there was not enough information and the information that was there was not seen by everyone
<kwwii> _MMA_: I am hoping that some of the community members step up and help on documentation things and spreading that information
<lassegul> kwwii: yeah but i would also think that if more users contributed, they would feel responsible. The bigger the mass that feel responsible, the harder it will be to bitch and whine
<_MMA_> To me, thats the balance people just dont get. If kwwii spends all his time documenting everything, where's the time to create? :) We _really_ have a finite amount of people who will actually do something.
<_MMA_> I know this 1st hand with Ubuntu Studio trust me.
<nothlit`alpha> the information does exist, its just not all in the same place
<_MMA_> kwwii: Here's hoping. :)
<kwwii> _MMA_: yeah, no doubt
<kwwii> lassegul: there will always be a certain amount of people that just want to complain
<nothlit`alpha> _MMA_: afaik we're only trying to document the rules/guidelines/working process, rather than the actual complete progress of which there will just likely be checkpoints
<nothlit`alpha> that should be perfectly manageable
<lassegul> kwwii:(repeating myself) yeah, _but_ the level of how much and many users care can be changed by us.
<_MMA_> nothlit`alpha: Thats cool. My cynical side just think it wont be enough. ( gah. just ignore me. Im feeling cranky) :)
<Misosaki> lol
<nothlit`alpha> lassegul: the chronic complainers are never going to be in a place where they are responsible
<nothlit`alpha> this is true of all things *chuckle*
<Misosaki> Heh
<lassegul> nothlit`alpha: then lets make the mass of users who do like the art team so big that it will be harder to bitch and whine.
<lassegul> Anyways, that isnt the only issue here. We should find out how to make more people contribute as well.
<lassegul> While still keeping it clear that it wont be a democratic process.
<lassegul> I think that might be the real hard problem.
<nothlit`alpha> we can try to get something in the newsletter, i think theres one
<nothlit`alpha> and the full circle magazine
<lassegul> thats good. we should also map out good artists that arent connected to us.
<lassegul> and later invite them to join. Like you guys did with JConnor, kwwii
* _MMA_ wonders why when replying to the art list it goes to the sender and not the list? This is an option the admin can set.
<_MMA_> kwwii: Do you admin that list?
<nothlit`alpha> because the mailing list, when it forwards a mail it sets the from field to the original sender
<nothlit`alpha> just use reply to all
<_MMA_> Sure. I know. Its just odd.
<_MMA_> "Where are replies to list messages directed?" is the option. Would be nice to get it set to "The list"
<kwwii> _MMA_: yes, I am admin
<kwwii> I can check that out
<kwwii> I just started as admin a couple of weeks ago
<kwwii> first I spent an entire day going through the 2000+ backlog
<_MMA_> Ouch.
<_MMA_> I do the 2 Ubuntu Studio ones. I spend half the time processing spam. Its crazy.
<Misosaki> =/
<Misosaki> No volunteers to do this?
<nothlit`alpha>  who's going to volunteer to do something so boring
<_MMA_> Well its also a trust thing. And I get ALOT of emails. Sux really.
<Misosaki> Well, how about a robot?
<Misosaki> :)
<_MMA_> Besides the normal posts there's alot of admin type email. Notifications about everything.
<lassegul> Misosaki: never trust the robots :P
<lassegul> Misosaki: didnt you learn anything from terminator 1-3
<_MMA_> lol
<Misosaki> lol
<Misosaki> Was thinking more along the lines of C3PO
<kwwii> _MMA_: yeah, the list gets about 5-10 spams a day
<calavera> hola a todos
<calavera> ayuda
<Misosaki> Question: Did sabdfl ever mention a new theme for future releases? Just thought it interesting that his wiki mentions the "Humanity" theme and why brown was chosen, so if there's going to be a colour change, it'd be helpful to know what it means to him
<Misosaki> Just as an another possible starting point
<lassegul> Misosaki: do you have a link=
<Misosaki> htto://wiki.ubuntu.com/MarkShuttleworth
<Misosaki> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MarkShuttleworth
<Misosaki> Scroll down a bit into the questions ... there's two about brown
<nothlit`alpha> its probably just based on that ad he liked?
<Misosaki> Well, what exactly did he like about it? From his perspective, what did that ad say?
<nothlit`alpha> he didn't say
<nothlit`alpha> i'm sure kwwii will talk about it more during the meeting
<Misosaki> It's fine to just like something ... but the designers that have to figure out how to translate that liking
<lassegul> well im off to watch some Heroes. Season 2!
<lassegul> see you later.
<Misosaki> Laters lassegul
<dmccal1> The updated default wallpaper has a much nicer shade of brown
<Misosaki> nothlit`alpha: Yeah, that'd be nice
<dmccal1> It seems that the slightly less intense browns work better
<dmccal1> (Grrr! What has happened to my name?!)
<Misosaki> Some tonal range and contrast helps
<nothlit> dmccal1: you get disconnected and your irc client added a 1 because your ghost still occupied the original
<dmccal1> Ah :)
<nothlit> Misosaki: sabdfl doesn't like that
<Misosaki> nothlit: Really ... there's contrast and some tonal range in the ad
<Misosaki> Not high contrast ... but it's not entirely flat either
<Misosaki> *visually, that is
<nothlit> Misosaki: sure, he may respond to the contrast and tonal range
<nothlit> Misosaki: but he doesn't recognise it and thinks that these things are bad for a distro
<Misosaki> Maybe the next meeting will be more of a "meta-debate", as lassegul puts it ... but once things up again, the artists would probably need as much info as they can get
<Misosaki> nothlit: Maybe these are some of the things that all the artists will have to be aware of.
<Misosaki> If they decide they want to help with the default theme.
<Misosaki> Apparently there's a slight split between default and the rest of the package. It's the default that people (naturally) get worked up over.
<Misosaki> Just throwing bits and suggestions out there until Tues
<_MMA_> kwwii: Looks like one got through: "[ubuntu-art]  giangio wants to share sites with you..." :)
<kwwii> _MMA_: yepp
<nothlit`alpha> kwwii: is the jpg issue a freedom thing or a legal thing?
<kwwii> nothlit: beleive it or not it is a technical issue
<kwwii> ubuntu has relied upon always using the same name for the default wallpaper so that it gets updated correctly and it is too late to change that
<kwwii> I did not realize that when I submitted my package the other day and found at this morning when they converted the jpg back to png and due to the filesize removed the elephant pic
<kwwii> naturally, I flipped out
<kwwii> so now the elephant pic is back in but there is 0 space left for a bigger png file
<nothlit`alpha> gnome uses file analysis, even if you label it a png it should work
<kwwii> nothlit`alpha: hrm, I can talk to dholbach and others about that tomorrow
<lassegul> Misosaki: I am in no place to dictate what the meeting should be about and isnt. I probably should have put that better. But my thought on the matter is that this would not be the online meeting we would have, but a first initial meeting. For it I thought that "Lets take first things first", lets move on from the mess we have today with all the screaming and yelling, and get a shared understanding on the team on how this is going to work the next 6 m
<lassegul> Misosaki: *s/and isnt/not be about/
<lassegul> the cough medicine is troubling my writing skills :S
<Misosaki> lassegul: nods Whatever direction the meeting takes
<lassegul> oh my god, that sentence was so bad im just going to write it again.
<lassegul> summary: This should not be the only meeting we have, lets take first things first, get process straight.
<lassegul> of course we must deal with other pressing matters if there are any. Im sure kwwii will make sure that will be included as well.
<kwwii> in this meeting I would like to discuss:
<kwwii> coordinating information between the company, wiki, mailing list, and forum
<Misosaki> Not going to be particular about the upcoming meeting here ... I'm just glad that there will be a meeting (or a series of meetings)
<kwwii> defining a process for contributions
<Misosaki> *at all
<kwwii> defining the decision making process
<kwwii> defining the fules for creating a wallpaper
<kwwii> defining concise design ideas for Hardy
<kwwii> defining a palette for Hardy
<kwwii> and explaining exactly what we want to change for Hardy (everything, basically)
<kwwii> have I missed something?
<lassegul> long meeting then :)
<lassegul> I dont know. I was thinking something like, how do we make an active community, but we can also save that for later.
<lassegul> i dont know with you guys but the summary in my head says that much of the trouble in this release was because of too few contributions.
<kwwii> lassegul: as far as I can see, if we define everything in clear statements that everyone can get a hold of and continue to allow all sides to communicate people will contribute if they feel like it
<kwwii> lassegul: there were many more contributions than in the recent past
<lassegul> kwwii: that sounds good.
<kwwii> the biggest problem in my eyes is that there are simpy far too few good artists which are willing to work on open source projects
<lassegul> kwwii: are any of these good artists on the mailing list?
<lassegul> kwwii: because my experience with getting people active, the best way to do that can often be to ask: "What will make you active?"
<kwwii> the ones that already contribute are on the list and read the wiki, the ones that we do not know about still need to be found
<lassegul> i see. so there probably wont be any "sleepers" attending the meeting?
<kwwii> in ten years working on linux I have only met around 10 really good artists
<dmccal1> A more accessible method to contribute would do well, I think. Could be as simple as some wiki templates and a single address to go to, where one can dump media such as icons and sounds -- and not just on a single mishmash "ideas" page. I am looking from the outside in here, and the trouble is that I see no single door to walk through.
<kwwii> there is a difference between someone who likes to doodle and can put something together and someone who can work under strict rules and still accomplish something decent
<kwwii> dmccal1: good point, adding that to the list
<lassegul> i tend to agree with dmccall here
<Misosaki> Agreed
<dmccal1> Not that it's difficult after figuring out how to contribute, but it can take quite a bit of figuring versus just dumping one's artwork on DeviantArt or the nearest photo management community
<lassegul> but i talked for some time with lapo this morning and he was not so excited by such a project.
<nothlit> he dislikes the idea of branding icons at all
<nothlit> understandably, as a tango member hes working toward unity completeness and integration
<lassegul> dmccal1: is what you are talking about some simplified version of the same system that gnome-look.org uses? Because thats really easy.
<kwwii> perhaps it would be better for us to leave out the specific artwork stuff for Hardy until the next meeting
<kwwii> and just discuss the improvements in the process first
<andreasn> hey dudes, when's the meeting? can I attend and stuff?
<kwwii> I mean, until we have a decent process there is little point in discussing the finer points
<nothlit> lassegul: we'll need to find developers and a server for that stuff
<kwwii> andreasn: damn, we were trying to keep it secret :p
<nothlit> andreasn: tuesday, 1700 UTC <-- time zone!
<lassegul> nothlit: yeah, you asked yesterday what happened to art.ubuntu.com
<lassegul> nothlit: did you get an answer?
* andreasn throws pixels as kwwii ;)
<nothlit> its funny, some of the stuff when it was online-- it was actually password locked
<nothlit> peoples ubuntu art albums
<andreasn> nothlit: next tuesday then?
<lassegul> and what was art.ubuntu.com again? I cant remember.
<nothlit> andreasn: yeah
<nothlit> it was a gallery of contributed ubuntu art
* kwwii complains that andreasn is throwing brown pixels around, I vote for green pixels
<nothlit> some of it was not bad
<andreasn> kwwii: hehe
<lassegul> nothlit: but the infrastructure how was that?
<nothlit> lassegul: it was an ubuntu branded gallery, i don't think there was voting or comments though
<nothlit> although any image gallery php application can handle that sort of stuff
<lassegul> nothlit: remember we dont need voting
<nothlit> sorry, i meant rating*
<kwwii> voting is not necessary or helpful
<Misosaki> What's wrong with the current wiki system?
<dmccal1> Indeed, voting is too simple -- especially when the submitted image can be edited
<nothlit> Misosaki: people need to learn wikis, and its more for documents than images
<kwwii> if the process is not democratic there is no point in voting or rating
<lassegul> nothlit: how about something very similar to art.gnome.org  without the rating
<nothlit> Misosaki: and comments are splashed everywhere, and people need to register for launchpad, which actually takes some figuring out first because some of the wiki pages suggest it has its own registration system
<Misosaki> nothlit: Ah
<Misosaki> Not sure how helpful voting might be ... comments would be much more useful
<kwwii> Misosaki: exactly
<lassegul> yeah, looking at it now, art.gnome.org looks exactly like a system we could use. simple, straight forward. Do we have the resources to get such a thing up and running kwwii
<kwwii> having a way to post your work and get comments from people
<kwwii> lassegul: the guy behind the *-look sites is a good friend, I could talk to him
<lassegul> nothlit: and btw we dont need rating either, just comments.
<kwwii> but no, there are no official resources for that kind of thing
<lassegul> kwwii: *-look is much too advanced though.
<lassegul> overkill
<kwwii> personally I think that the wiki is enough, but if people feel the need a stripped down version of the *-look site would be ok I guess
<nothlit> lassegul: the art team seems to used to have two servers https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoHosting?highlight=%28art.ubuntu.com%29
<Misosaki> Maybe a main page with all the relevant links: divide the icons, walls, etc.
<kwwii> I am somewhat worried about spreading this information too thinly though
<Misosaki> Hi damianvila
<kwwii> irc, wiki and mailing list seem like enough to me
<damianvila> Hi people
<damianvila> I was looking for Cory
<nothlit> people complained about transparency though
<lassegul> kwwii: can we abandon the wiki?
<kwwii> lassegul: I seriously doubt that
<nothlit> especially irc and mailing list
<kwwii> nothlit: but after looking at the forum comments it is clear that people ignore the mailing list and wiki
<damianvila> _MMA_: are you there?
<nothlit> damianvila: hes _MMA_
<kwwii> then again, people will ignore something else if we do that too
<kwwii> ignoring things is easy
<kwwii> :p
<Misosaki> What might end up happening is a mix/match thing - taking something x from icons and y from walls ... so as the new work comes in, there might be a way to visualise combinations of designs
<nothlit> i think if we had a dedicated art interface like the theme sites there could be no complaints
<kwwii> Misosaki: yes, that was my idea as well
<lassegul> kwwii: think about it. people are used to sites like art.gnome.org and *-look.org, a wiki is a whole other system, many people have never used this.
<nothlit> they think of the wiki as a working system only for those participating
<nothlit> a gallery is something more accessible
<kwwii> in order to sell this whole new idea to sabdfl and others we will need to make mockups showing how the whole desktop experience could be
<lassegul> kwwii: you mean mockups of the possible gallery?
<kwwii> one of the biggest problems until now is that one person offers up their one piece of work which does not fit with the rest and expects someone else to come along and finish off the other 90%
<kwwii> lassegul: no, mockups of the interfaces of the OS
<Misosaki> Will it be possible to have the gallery system integrated to regular forum registration, or will people have to register again to comment?
<lassegul> kwwii: lots of thing going on at once.
* lassegul does not multitask.
<kwwii> lassegul: just wait till the meeting
<kwwii> it'll be worse, I promise
<nothlit> Misosaki: not unless we get the forum admins into this
<_MMA_> damianvila: Im here.
<lassegul> damn havent thought about that yet. need some kind of bullet-time device then :)
<damianvila> Uh! OK :-)
<kwwii> troy_s: I hope that you will find time to attend the meeting as well?
<nothlit> Misosaki: that is quite ambitious in terms of the technical side, which we don't much have
<nothlit> Misosaki: i'd think only submitters would need to register, and commenters could just leave messages anonymously
<kwwii> nothlit: I think that such a plan would attract too much spam
<Misosaki> kwwii: Well, that depends on approach to the process: does everyone work on one aspect of the visuals at a time, or will everything be on the roll at the same time?
<nothlit> mockups are definitely the most important thing, but how many resources do we have in terms of metacity/gtk/gdm themers?
<lassegul> ok, ill make a mockup of such a gallery. ill be back in 5
<Misosaki> nothlit: Yeah
<kwwii> Misosaki: until now it has been the case that everyone goes in their own direction and does whatever they want pretty much ignoring anything
<kwwii> nothlit: if we can show good ideas we can get it coded (within reason)
<nothlit> Misosaki: well, the meeting participants would probably define the look, potentially in mockups, and then it'll probably just be up to working style/talents/ and how integrated everything is
<kwwii> much like the icons, i know that I can hire artists to work on this once we convince the right people of our ideas
<Misosaki> kwwii: Yeah ... it's just that (obviously) aspects of the visuals don't stand alone ... icons can affect wallpaper, desktop affects gdm etc.
<kwwii> Misosaki: definitely, I think that this will always be a problem for us...as you suggested, making definite rules might help this
<Misosaki> So if everyone had something to work with from the start, then it's more likely that the work that comes next will move in the "right" direction
<kwwii> yes,  I think so, but time will tell how well that works out
<nothlit> in order to get the entire community working in the same direction, we'll definitely need guidelines and examples as clear as tango
<Misosaki> nothlit: nods ... though the likelihood of that integration will depend on how much there is to start with
<Misosaki> nothlit: Exactly
<kwwii> nothlit: I was kinda hoping to use tango as the basis and go from there
<kwwii> for the icons, I mean
<kwwii> for the rest, I will define clear rules and exact things that we want
<_MMA_> damianvila: Did you need something?
<kwwii> like a palette, etc
<damianvila> _MMA_: just wanted to talk about Studio...
<_MMA_> Ok.
<_MMA_> Here, PM, #ubuntustudio, whereever.
<damianvila> _MMA_: OK, going there :-)
<andreasn> kwwii: regarding all the flames about the default background. If there is any comfort, I went through the same thing a couple of weeks ago when we had to decide on the default background for gnome (that every distro apart from debian and maybe freebsd replaces with their own thing)
<kwwii> andreasn: I feel your pain
<kwwii> luckily we have no such problems with KDE...kinda amazing in that respect
<andreasn> kwwii: well, this was even for a background that only becomes the default if you compile stuff from source and isn't visible on any on the big distros
<kwwii> looking back at working for SUSE all those years I realize how lucky I was to not have to deal with the community :p
<andreasn> hehe
<kwwii> andreasn: those are the people who are truly religous about it - I can imagine that they complain the most
<andreasn> well, it was mostly two dudes that kept bringing it up to discussion again and again
<andreasn> + the random blog posters
<kwwii> andreasn: that is pretty much the case here as well...two people stirring up dissent
<kwwii> just post a few very sarcastic remarks and see how many others join in the cry
<andreasn> I mean, it's like the easiest thing to change on a system, and most people are just going to put a picture of their dog there instead
<kwwii> the more open we try to be, the more this will happen, I think
<dmccal1> Regarding getting art to fit together more... Some day (eventually), there could be a means of quickly installing icons and backgrounds from the Ubuntu art site, perhaps based on project tags. That way, independent artists could more easily be working in the same environment they are building upon without having to wait for the repos or go through the mailing lists first.
<kwwii> yeah, just look at the polls of people who actually keep the default artwork...it is in single digits, percentage-wise
<kwwii> dmccal1: we made an automated artwork builder so that people could make their own packages...I spent a couple of days writing documentation and exactly 0 people have used it thus far
<dmccal1> kwwii: Ah :/
<nothlit> lol
* nothlit is using a default gnome background right now
<andreasn> nothlit: the one in 2.20 with the macro palm leaf?
<nothlit> andreasn: no, arch hasn't got 2.20 out of testing yet i'm afraid
<kwwii> andreasn: that one!?! oh man I HATE IT :p
<kwwii> lol
<andreasn> kwwii: yeah, me too ;)
<andreasn> hahaha
<kwwii> I think it should be brown
<kwwii> and pink
<kwwii> with a bit of magenta
<andreasn> using more pink by default would be kind of interesting
<kwwii> but nobody ever listens to me
<kwwii> think i will post that to a forum somwhere, perhaps make a poll as well
<andreasn> would probably make more installs for teenage girls
<kwwii> I was tempted to replace the default artwork for the beta with ponies
<andreasn> haah
<kwwii> http://mattmendoza.files.wordpress.com/2007/05/twilight_440_2c.jpg
<andreasn> ooh, that's kind of nice
<Misosaki> lols kwwii
<kwwii> but someone might take that the wrong way
<kwwii> god forbid I give people more reason to bitch
<Misosaki> It's naked :|
<Misosaki> ;)
<kwwii> Misosaki: lol, no doubt that would be the first complaint
<kwwii> omg! naked animals?
<kwwii> you cannot be serious
<kwwii> it is against my religion
<kwwii> if I still have this job in January I am going to start a new, privately funded calender
<kwwii> what better way to relieve stress than taking pictures of naked people
<nothlit> i wonder why the wallpapers used to use naked people instead of clothed children
<kwwii> dude, it is much easier to take pics of naked people than it is to take them of children
<kwwii> and someone somewhere would say that it promotes child porn, no matter what you do
<kwwii> on top of that, it is really hard to find children who are models
<kwwii> whereas it is really easy to find adults who will get naked for money
<nothlit> LOL
<andreasn> what about candy then?
* andreasn hides
<kwwii> :p
<andreasn> ugh, I guess it's kind of bad to joke about these things, I think I'll stop here
<Misosaki> lol
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-09-26
<lassegul> ok i just wasted 20 minuits of my life trying to make an mockup of the gallery thing, just ending up with changing the logo and title of art.gnome.org
<lassegul> but I think art.gnome.org thing would suite us very well. Its a gallery with comment function, userlogin, space to write at the top of the page, we just need to change the categories and remove the voting system.
<Misosaki> Hi terlmann
<andreasn> lassegul: did you see any of the art.gnome.org-redesign-stuff that some soc student was working on?
<terlmann> hello
<lassegul> andreasn: no, you have a link?
<andreasn> lassegul: let me ask thos
<terlmann> kwwii : I wanna flame you :-P
<kwwii> terlmann: as if you haven't already? :D
<terlmann> yea
<Misosaki> Hi melaren
<terlmann> First of all , that artist you picked was good at real-life imagery. The same does not go for digital art. I would have liked to see a sunset or better yet a sunrise with the morning star visible... A good landscape and a high-res camera would make such a thing breathtaking, and this guy would be good at it.
<terlmann> However
<terlmann> alll of the slashy picks you uploaded looked like a 8th graders work
<kwwii> terlmann: the best way to discuss artwork is to not insult people
<terlmann> slashy this and shashes on that and all pretty much the same thing >_<
<nothlit> joseph takes a lot of 'light painting' imagery
<kwwii> the picture that was included by default was chosen by sabdfl and others, I have little to no say in the matter
<nothlit> terlmann: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jciv/322205551/in/set-72157594417940191/
<kwwii> people accuse me of doing this and that...they even accuse me of including my own pic
<kwwii> silliness really
<kwwii> look at the pics at the top of the wiki page and then tell me which pic on the page best represents that
<kwwii> troys pics come really close
<kwwii> he is in second place, as far as recreating the pics at the top of the wiki page
<Misosaki> Hi BHSPitMonkey
<kwwii> everyone loved the elephant pic  (myself included) so is also in the default package
<kwwii> s/is/it
<terlmann> Well I have this to say if nothing else : the definition of quality has gone down since hoary , arguably IMHO the best ever. And we seem set apron erasing all the classical work from long ago and replacing it. as for http://www.flickr.com/photos/jciv/322205551/in/set-72157594417940191/ , it looks like something from a sketchbook, not any kind of truly inspiring art.
<BHSPitMonkey> hi
<BHSPitMonkey> kwwii, what page?
<terlmann> kwwii
<kwwii> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/GutsyIdeas
<kwwii> the idea that I can somehow change what I was told by my boss to do is just silly
<kwwii> we will change things, the next time around
<terlmann> I want to dcc you a file that is what I think the work of joeseph and troy should look like, or at least aspire to the same level of detail.
<terlmann> give it to your boss
<kwwii> but for this release the point was to create something very close and similar to what is at the top of that page
<kwwii> terlmann: please do, although that almost never works on my network for some reason
<terlmann> it is called plus infinite
<andreasn> lassegul: the code is in gnome svn apparently
<terlmann> as for creating something that looks like what we had before... I say that is just silly >_<
<kwwii> [DCC]  Download of "Plus_Infinite.jpg" from terlmann failed. Reason: Connection failure: timed operation timed out.
<terlmann> crap
<kwwii> please send me it per email
<terlmann> ok
<lassegul> andreasn: ok, but I was only using it as an example of what kind of system that would suite or needs.
<kwwii> terlmann: it is not my job to question what I have to do, but rather to do it
<terlmann> I wanna kick your boss in the rumpus and take his job away :-P
<kwwii> terlmann: the next release will be very different but I doubt you will like that either as the rules will be very specific
<kwwii> terlmann: earn a few hundred million, buy the company and perhaps you'll have a chance
<andreasn> lassegul: apparently the new art.gnome.org isn't ready yet, but anyway, I think it should be fairly easy to just use the art.gnome.org code and adapt it to your own needs
<terlmann> the big man controls this personally ?
<kwwii> terlmann: yepp
<kwwii> him and a few others
<terlmann> he is sabfdl or something like that ?
<kwwii> until a couple of months ago there was going to be no big changes in anything
<andreasn> lassegul: svn.gnome.org/svn/art-web/branches/art-web-3 <- the new art.gnome-stuff
<kwwii> I spent most of my time working on the mobile project
<kwwii> terlmann: exactly
<terlmann> as for his ideas having any merit , I refer his blushing mug to the ubuntu calender
<kwwii> terlmann: I intend to start the calender again on a private basis
<kwwii> just to piss everyone off
<kwwii> :p
<kwwii> I liked it
<terlmann> well I say get him in here
<terlmann> or try to
<kwwii> no chance
<terlmann> I would like to speak person to person .... no more wandering off into space ( pun intended )
<kwwii> he knows what he wants, the fact that certain people do not like that is simply the way the world works
<kwwii> after all, he did make one of the most popular linux distris with his own ideas
<kwwii> I would rather work for someone who knows exactly what he wants and makes a few mistakes from time to time than a huge company that restricts anyone from doing anything really new and interesting again and again
<kwwii> that was how it felt to work for novell
<terlmann> Well I like ubuntu , but ol mark there is a bit eccentric.. and that makes for some hard fighting when it comes to the small details...
<kwwii> working for canonical reminds me of working for suse when it was only 50 people (the good old days)
<kwwii> terlmann: yes, it does but nobody ever said that it was a democracy
<terlmann> Suse is great... RPM's are something I would expect to see in hell though...
<terlmann> .deb for heaven , .rpm for hell.... .ebuild for purgatory.. lol
<kwwii> SuSE was great, in the meantime it is no longer what it once was
<kwwii> now it is simply a small part of a big company
<kwwii> novell sucks
<kwwii> I spent weeks at novell defending suse
<kwwii> they wanted to kill the name and logo
<melaren> Hi Misosaki :)
<kwwii> leaving SuSE when I did was one of the best things that I did, career-wise
<kwwii> and I spent 7 years giving my heart and soul to suse
<kwwii> anyway
<terlmann> kwwii : I say ubuntu revise the debian policies
<terlmann> like packaging formats
<terlmann> and tools
<terlmann> those things are years old
<terlmann> the new millenia needs new things
<terlmann> I agree debian based packaging is the current best in the world , but I think it could use improvement
<terlmann> and I would like to shoot the guy who implemented installing from a live enviroment
<terlmann> My system hates him
<terlmann> live disks are just evil
<terlmann> I wants my install disk back... looking something like the fedora core dvd did...
<kwwii> hehe, that is one of the things I like the most
<terlmann> email sent
<terlmann> check it out
<kwwii> being able to know exactly what will work and what will not work in advance
<terlmann> well for a i686 machine with ide and hardware from 2002 ... my system is rather simple
<terlmann> I bought a gig of ram from newegg today but the purchase won't go through.. I am going to give my bank a headache tommarow for this...
<kwwii> terlmann: that pic has way too much contrast to put icons on top of
<kwwii> and it does not fit at all with the oolor scheme
<kwwii> color
<kwwii> I admit that many people would love it for their desktop
<kwwii> it does look pretty nifty
<kwwii> but that is not default install material
<kwwii> sorry
<kwwii> not to be mean or rude
<terlmann> I did not reccomend the picture itself
<terlmann> the color is not at all the point
<terlmann> the use of the depth in the picture to draw something...
<terlmann> that is important.
<terlmann> look at all the art we have produced so far (officially) . every release has futured a picture that serves almost as a BLUEPRINT or fingerprint of Ubuntu
<terlmann> simple curves do not hint of unique quality
<nothlit> andreasn: the art.gnome. backend code is available?
<nothlit> andreasn: is it homebrewed or modified?
<kwwii> terlmann: I promise that we will go in a totally different direction for hardy if that helps
<andreasn> nothlit: yeah, it's there in svn, um, don't know how it's made exactly
<BHSPitMonkey> I still want to code my idea for a dynamic wallpaper
<kwwii> terlmann: also, you have to know that the plan is not to change drastically from release to release
<kwwii> we want to keep a general idea between LTS releases
<kwwii> so that one feels a natural evolution
<terlmann> well I wanna tell him to let me make the plan :-P .. I will make a whiz-bang release !!
<kwwii> this is my second release working on ubuntu so nobody can blame me for not making things perfect
<nothlit> i wonder if that will lead to staleness in between LTS
<terlmann> stale yes. unspicy no.
<kwwii> nothlit: some will see it that way but if we define that as part of the plan there is no way around it
<terlmann> I plan to argue my way into oblivion
<kwwii> I think it is a good idea
<kwwii> there is no reason to completely reinvent things every time
<kwwii> but the idea of completely recreating the wheel every time is silly as well
<kwwii> evolution is the key
<kwwii> not stagnation
<kwwii> but for that we need really good artists
<terlmann> well to make the wheel over so it looks the same is important... but the quality of anything degrades as time goes on.
<kwwii> we are only talking about a couple of releases before things change again
<terlmann> I am a really good artist.. well sorta.. I am a master at gimping at least
<BHSPitMonkey> it'd be better if you were a master at inkscaping
<terlmann> actually inkscape is not my fave
<terlmann> I prefer the gimp
<kwwii> being able to edit artwork and being able to create new artwork are two different things
<BHSPitMonkey> <3 inkscape
<terlmann> you wanna see some of my work
<BHSPitMonkey> <3 <3 <3
<terlmann> original mind you
<terlmann> gimping is not all about alteration
<kwwii> gimp is ok, if you can create something nice with it
<nothlit> gimp is perfectly fine for concepts, wallpapers etc
<terlmann> I can make art in it too
<kwwii> I make no limits as to the tools ones use
<kwwii> I prefer svgs as it is more flexible but that is not a rule
<nothlit> inkscape is not the end-all and be all of everything, it is a great, if slow app, but it isn't supposed to be used <everywhere>
<BHSPitMonkey> the world needs more svg wizards
<kwwii> heck, make the perfect pic with MS paint and I will still accept it
<alex-weej> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntulooks/+bug/145004
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 145004 in ubuntulooks "Implement GtkExpander styling (Code, Screenshot)" [Undecided,New] 
<alex-weej> for gutsy!
<BHSPitMonkey> alex-weej, uh huh
<BHSPitMonkey> alex-weej, find a calendar
<nothlit> are there even any coders in here lol
<alex-weej> BHSPitMonkey: ?
<alex-weej> i'm sorry i don't understand what you mean, BHSPitMonkey
<BHSPitMonkey> alex-weej, more like "for hardy"
<nothlit> beta freeze has passed
<kwwii> elephant in my eyes is one of the best pieces of artwork that has happened for ubuntu in a long time but one does have to admit that it looks quite dirty by nature and does not reflect what we are trying to create for gutsy
<alex-weej> there's a hard code freeze now?
<terlmann> sabdfl@ubuntu.com ? is that where I should send a self-dampened flame ?
<dmccal1> nothlit: Coders, eh? I can code, but whether you would want me to depends on what it is ;)
<terlmann> kwwii : what about lionmane ?
<kwwii> terlmann: does that reflect the pics at the top of the wiki page to you? (honestly?)
<terlmann> sorta
<BHSPitMonkey> kwwii, "Linux for Elephants" :)
<terlmann> to me
<terlmann> yes
<terlmann> more so than the other one
<terlmann> elephant
<terlmann> wayy more so
<kwwii> looking at the forum and wiki page elephant has clearly won
<terlmann> you said you might include my art :-)
<dmccal1> One thing I know is we really need a post-install script to let us rename those wallpapers. The stuck name problem is ridiculous and needs a fix, pronto!
<terlmann> I put it up on it's own page
<kwwii> terlmann: it will be included in the community package
<dmccal1> Elephant may win, but I don't think it would do to call it "SimpleUbuntu"
<kwwii> dmccal1: definitely
<terlmann> kwii : and about the toolbars.. someone said something about polishing it up... it would be simple to implement such a hing
<kwwii> dmccal1: if i had known about this in advance I would have had it changed
<kwwii> it just came up this morning
<terlmann> transparency in a sense
<kwwii> and believe me, I screamed
<dmccal1> Should be possible to pop it in as a bug report
<terlmann> the glasspanel page was good
<BHSPitMonkey> I think the ubuntu logo on elephant needs to be closer to white
<dmccal1> And not hard to fix
<dmccal1> Just a script that runs for a user then disables itself
<kwwii> there should be no logo in the wallpaper at all
<terlmann> the elephant theme is good. what about branding it :-P
<kwwii> unless it is part of the design
<terlmann> well the branding like I did ? where it is burn-in ?
<terlmann> is that ok ?
<BHSPitMonkey> the animal wallpapers struck me as really nice login screens
<terlmann> or is that going to drive the animal crazies up their trees ?
<terlmann> pitmonkey : we need something like the avio theme
<terlmann> for gdm
<dmccal1> I preferred the lion background, myself. The elephant's brown is sort of artificial, whereas lions really are naturally brown
<dmccal1> On the other hand, there is a better chance of that elephant skin still being attached to a living elephant, since elephants are huge
<lassegul> dmccal1: elephants usually are pretty brown because of the mud :)
<terlmann> I will get the elephant skin and make it into a gdm theme . is that ok ?
<BHSPitMonkey> terlmann, use tab-completion and full IRC nicks when addressing somebody please
<nothlit> terlmann: i think damian sent the source images to troy to work on a complete theme
<nothlit> don't quote me on that though
<terlmann> I'm going to beat him to it
<terlmann> gimme a sec
<BHSPitMonkey> "<nothlit> terlmann: i think damian sent the source images to troy to work on a complete theme"
<lassegul> terlmann: thats the spirit
<nothlit> darkmatter: heyas
<nothlit> darkmatter: any further on glory-simplex? :P
<kwwii> I have the source images as well if anyone wants them
<kwwii> send me an email
<kwwii> for now, I am going to bed
<kwwii> 1:24 am here
<lassegul> same here. ill see you guys tomorrow.
<darkmatter> nothlit : been a bit busy of late, so no, nothing official yet
<nothlit> wait, UDS?
<nothlit> have you invited damian or anything?
<Misosaki> Laters kwwii and lassegul
<nothlit> darkmatter: ah ok
<terlmann> sleep well and shot
<terlmann> short
<kwwii> :-)
<terlmann> long nights are the worst
<nothlit> darkmatter: i look forward to any progress you may make in the future :)
<lassegul> yeah see you Misosaki. terlmann take it easy
<kwwii> I have to get up at 6:30 to make sure my son goes to school
<kwwii> I get about 4 hours of sleep a night
<terlmann> I finished this year :_)
<darkmatter> nothlit : :)
<Misosaki> :)
<kwwii> so no worries on me sleeping too much
<kwwii> night all
<darkmatter> welp, time to play some WoW xD
<dmccall> Kind of off topic, but does anyone here have an opinion on those Wacom Bamboo tablets? They're a tad simplified, but very sleek and inexpensive. I'm looking forward to where they go with them :)
<Misosaki> Bamboo tablets? Haven't seen them for sale here :(
<Misosaki> At least not in the reg retail chains
<swj> so what does everyone think of the brown fluid update?
<kwwii_away> dmccall: I have two tablets, I suggest getting the biggest one possible
<Misosaki> Hi swj
<kwwii_away> swj: I would be interested in that as well
<swj> hi
<nothlit> Bamboo?
<kwwii_away> not the one that was included in the beta though
<nothlit> I have a 9x12 intuos2, but I mostly use my tabletpc
<kwwii_away> it was messed up (not my fault)
<terlmann> done
<nothlit> I've found the supposed doubling in pressure sensitivity doesn't make a difference at all, or at least with the sampling rate
<terlmann> transformation complete
<terlmann> gdm theme done
<swj> it is lighter, but I can see a green tone through in lighter areas.  1280x1024 Samsung LCD 50 Hz
<terlmann> will upload it to your email at once ,and if anyone wants a dcc...
<swj> in fact a lot of green
<kwwii_away> swj: in which version?
<kwwii_away> the beta version or the one I posted this evening to the mailing list?
<terlmann> hey does anyone here want me to dcc them a copy of my submission for the new gdm theme?
<terlmann> it is the elephant on a Avio inteface
<swj> kwwii the newest update
<nothlit> swj: do you see green on this one? http://sinecera.de/warty-final-ubuntu.png
<terlmann> uploading my gz'd tar file now...
<terlmann> kwwii_away : get some sleep man. It will save your life someday.
<terlmann> http://www.mediafire.com/?12wmssldhwy
<terlmann> is where my file is at
<terlmann> 500 kilobytes
<terlmann> don't everyone rush and get it now
<swj> kwii a lot less but it is still there...also in that version there are added artifacts...it almost seemed that someone colored the image and as a result its not looking just right...well at least that the same look I get when I try to color an image ;)
<terlmann> you might strain a muscle
<terlmann> does anyone here package for gutsy ?
<kwwii_away> all the artwork packaging was done by me...but don't ask me for help on this
<kwwii_away> anyway, I am sleeping now
<kwwii_away> swj: I do not see any green in that pic
<terlmann> crap
<kwwii_away> time for me to buy another external monitor
<terlmann> my gdm theme is broken
<kwwii_away> terlmann: just check out another gdm theme and edit is as you need
<swj> the green exists more to the bottom right
<kwwii_away> ask dholbach or someone to help you as needed
<kwwii_away> -devel is your friend
<terlmann> kwii
<terlmann> go to sleep
<terlmann> brb guys
<terlmann> gonna go test my theme :-)
<swj> it was dark brown but in the process of making lighter...I guess is what did it...I have seen it before
<kwwii_away> swj: the point of posting that pic was to avoid problems, so if anyone else mentions that I will try and fix it
<kwwii_away> yeah, sleep now
<swj> mind if I post it to the forums or have you already?
<kwwii_away> swj: please post it, I am not active on the forum -  I am sure that lots of people will still complain though
<terlmann> I did it !
<swj> thanks
<terlmann> it works
<terlmann> now just to tweek it a little
<kwwii_away> I do want to make as many people happy as possible so post it in a good way
<kwwii_away> not "kwwii is telling us that this is what he wants" or such
<kwwii_away> anyway
<kwwii_away> I am out now
<kwwii_away> for good
<swj> has everyone seen the original "brown" fluid
<swj> http://www.flickr.com/photos/jciv/322205551/in/set-72157594417940191/
<swj> or I should call it blue fluid
<terlmann> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/GutsyIdeas now contains a gdm section !!
<terlmann> enjoy
<terlmann> and this time it work
<terlmann> works
<terlmann> so get your copy right now. It is only 200kb.
<terlmann> as a matter of fact.. I should put a screenshot up..
<swj> http://www.flickr.com/photos/jciv/sets/72157594417940191/
<dmccall> terlmann: That there is a nice GDM theme. Icons seem a tad inconsistent with the rest of the desktop, though. (They're prettier icons, actually :b)
<dmccall> It may rekindle the "elephant for president" debate, however
<dmccall> err, default*
<nothlit> terlmann: your download link: Description: Ubuntu Gutsy GDM Theme
<nothlit> to download this file use "Internet Explorer"
<nothlit> ADSTechnology
<nothlit> Please open this link in "Internet Explorer"
<terlmann> not at all
<_MMA_> Just a little FYI. Updates have been made: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Artwork/OfficialHardyIncoming
<nothlit> i'm using opera btw
<terlmann> my latest link ( the one on the gutsy page) is a clean file linl
<terlmann> link
<terlmann> MMA
<terlmann> I had a hardy page up weeks ago :-P
<terlmann> but its not for studio
<terlmann> :_)
<_MMA_> ;)
<nothlit> terlmann: thats what i'm getting from http://fileho.com/download/8e4a67948335/Ubuntu-fresh.tar.gz.html , even masking as FF
<nothlit> masking as ie asks me to install a .exe
<terlmann> hmmmmm
<terlmann> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/HardyIdeas is complete and fully ready. please view.
<nothlit> terlmann: uhh
<nothlit> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Hardy
<terlmann> it was GutsyIdeas
<terlmann> it is HardyIdeas
<terlmann> nuff said
<terlmann> o nothit
<terlmann> you lose
<terlmann> Mine is better :-)
<nothlit> theres nothing to lose
<Misosaki> terlmann: Er ... some of the WallpaperRules might have changed.
<terlmann> nothit
<nothlit> anyways, thats the one on the front page and set out in mail
<_MMA_> terlmann: How old are you?
<terlmann> please feel free to alter the page i made..
<terlmann> and please merge them
<Misosaki> nothlit was originally doing some of the documentation, but kwwii did advise waiting until the Tues meeting when we get the process down
<terlmann> MMA
<terlmann> 22
<Misosaki> To avoid hasty or cause confusion
<terlmann> nothit : you can see mine is more well formed , but you do have some semblence of what the rules will be...
<_MMA_> Ok. That just looked a little "preteen" there. ;)
<Misosaki> Maybe at the Tues meeting you can suggest to kwwii and let him and everyone else know you'd like to help cover documentation
<nothlit> there is some hidden stuff
<nothlit> but i hope you are aware that people have already contributed to the linked pages
<terlmann> please update the emails and front page to point to whichever adress you like , but please merge them.. the one I made you can clearly see is pretty good
<Misosaki> terlmann: Please, kwwii advised waiting until Tues or when we get the process straightened out and clear with everyone.
<masta> evening
<Misosaki> Hi masta
<masta> can anyone update me on if anythings being done with the default wallpaper for gutsy?
<terlmann> Misosaki : read the page I made.. I say clearly that the rules will be specified by kwwii at a later date..
<Misosaki> terlmann, if you would like to do the documentation, you'd probably be most welcomed to it ... but we should get the info down and clear first.
<Misosaki> terlmann: There's a link to the WallpaperRules ... and some of the items there might no longer apply.
<Misosaki> masta: There are improvements underway for the default wallpaper.
<terlmann> yea I know
<terlmann> I will alter those tonight
<terlmann> I got some pointers
<masta> sweet. thanks Misosaki
<Misosaki> masta: Or rather, there have been already, so if you think it could be improved, please drop by again and let kwwii know. He's away at the moment.
<Misosaki> masta: Np.
<masta> alright, i was hoping more along the lines of it would be changing, but suggestions is a step. thanks again.
<Misosaki> terlmann: Please do. If others see this and already start on things thinking that this is what it's going to be, then efforts will be wasted if things changed.
<Misosaki> (As things are almost certainly bound to change)
<terlmann> http://myfreefilehosting.com/f/f599867d19_0.25MB
<terlmann> there is the gdm theme
<terlmann> for anyone who wants it
<Misosaki> terlmann: Will take a look. Thanks for sharing.
<terlmann> nothit : I leave the alteration of the /artwork/wallpaperrules file to you. the only thing I can do to improve them at this moment is to most nearly copy the contents of your page :-P
<terlmann> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Hardy/ConceptArt is one to merge with hardyincoming
<terlmann> so you do it how you want
<terlmann> just don't let my time go to waste please , this stuff isn't randomly generated :-P
<nothlit> Yeah, working on merging some of it now
<nothlit> i'll see about more of it after the meeting and things have been discusses such as resolutions etc
<terlmann> hey nothit
<terlmann> you have ddc on?
<nothlit> i can accept files yes
<terlmann> do you like landscape art or digital?
<nothlit> as long as you're not using the passive type
<nothlit> sure
<nothlit> i don't mind looking at anybody's art
<terlmann> this is the best , IMHO
<terlmann> its not sending
<terlmann> would you please take this and share it around to your friends ?
<terlmann> or just keep it to yourself
<nothlit> sorry, i'm using an irssi proxy, forget to check the actual irc
<nothlit> i can distribute the images as appropriate if you want
<terlmann> if you like night-time art I have the best picture of that kind ever too, but it is pitch black in parts :-)
<terlmann> no I am just sharing with fellow artists
<terlmann> these are royalty free works but not mine
<Misosaki> Whose are they, if you don't mind the asking?
<terlmann> various artists
<terlmann> I forget the names , but the pictures should have something in the tags or file name
<terlmann> I get them off various sites
<terlmann> I am always in the mood to surf looking for good art :-)
<terlmann> Misosaki : ever hear of worth1000 ?
<Misosaki> Yeah
<terlmann> well these are far better than you will find ther
<terlmann> for example
<Misosaki> Heheh
<terlmann> here
<terlmann> here is the example and the only one of it's speciality to be worth keeping , IMHO
<nothlit> hmm one place we could look for artists
<nothlit> is cgsociety, especially matte painters, and search for ubuntu users
<terlmann> well google the artist names
<terlmann> and look specially at deviantart
<terlmann> you boneheada
<terlmann> look at this for me
<terlmann> this is a special artist
<terlmann> here
<terlmann> take a file
<terlmann> Misosaki I am sending you a diff file for looking at
<terlmann> please take :-)
<terlmann> <3
<Misosaki> Can you link to it instead of dcc? Thx
<terlmann> (+)
<terlmann> um.. ok
<Misosaki> Just easier, thanks
<terlmann> not really
<terlmann> I dont have the original link
<Misosaki> Well, is the artist on dA?
<Misosaki> aiRaGe?
<terlmann> found him
<terlmann> yea
<terlmann> airage
<terlmann> he has one I see
<Misosaki> Okay ...
<terlmann> as a matter of fact i think I found it there...
* terlmann slaps head
<terlmann> isobolax.deviantart.com is where you must go
<terlmann> for the ubuntu best artist
<terlmann> I have seen
<terlmann> at least at making landscapes
<terlmann> deviantart is where the real artists and the crappy ones all have homes
<terlmann> ratio of crappy to good is 1000 to 1
<terlmann> but you can find the better art linked to elsewhere
<nothlit> No page exists at your destination address, http://isobolax.deviantart.com/, but the deviantART home page should help you to find what you need.
<terlmann> hold on
<terlmann> http://djust.deviantart.com/art/Ubuntu-33902317 omg
<terlmann> found this while searching for iso
<terlmann> take a peek
<terlmann> slaps head again
<terlmann> izobalax
<terlmann> nothlit : go here http://izobalax.deviantart.com/gallery/?offset=24
<terlmann> some very good stuff
<terlmann> good enough for official release
<terlmann> good enough to be payed for it
<nothlit> lol, aqua human
<nothlit> ok, i'll bookmark them and ask them when i have a chance
<terlmann> I was thinking about something
<terlmann> what about trying some .gif animation in the future ?
<terlmann> or including a reduced set of enlightenment libs and apps to draw the background ( also animated )
<terlmann> what would you guys think ?
<terlmann> what if the clock was part of the background and so was the calander ?
<terlmann> we could do it with enlightenment
<terlmann> bit difficult,,,, but think of the coolness !!
<terlmann> we would 1-up every other os out there
<terlmann> every single one
<nothlit> lol, enlightenment
<nothlit> if were were to do it it would have to be with widgets
<nothlit> since compiz-fusion is the default (unfortunately)
<nothlit> you could probably push for some screenlets
<_MMA_> The clean desktop policy would most likely nix that idea.
<terlmann> well the enlightenment would only paint the root window
<terlmann> not really be running
<terlmann> in a interactive sense
<terlmann> screenlets and widgets , in all varieties , are currently brocken
<terlmann> broken
<nothlit> ubuntu is not going to move away from metacity themes
<terlmann> nothlit : did you hear me ? I said only painting the root window~
<terlmann> gnome and metacity can be layered on top
<nothlit> enlightenment can coexist with a seperate window manager?
<terlmann> yea
<nothlit> this is an e16 desktop management application?
<terlmann> actually it is an ingergal component of e17
<terlmann> and it is very cool
<terlmann> google howto e17 feisty
<terlmann> it works
<terlmann> I have used it many times
<terlmann> enlightenment as a gnome replacement is worthless.... but to use it only to do root window painting would still be a worthy task ... and give a great deal of animating power to the artista
<terlmann> you can make realtime stuff
<terlmann> films even
<terlmann> and interactive elements like a logo that sends out waves when you pass the cursor over
<dmccall> Clock hard-coded onto the background would be a bit fugly, I think. I have been playing with a Gnome Panel that gives desklet-like behaviour simply by staying below other windows, and that could get the job done just as well under a single already existing infrastructure
<dmccall> instead of wasting resources, time, stability and sanity by having a whole other program doing desktop decorations
<_MMA_> SLEDs new International Clock is all the clock I need. ;)
<dmccall> Although, what would be really cool is some way to have file previews of stuff inside a directory drawn onto that directory's icon
<nothlit> what we really need is for nautilus not to be slow, and lock up for no reason first
<nothlit> for no good reason*
<dmccall> Unfortunately, that happens to be a feature in Vista, so may not be worth it to be accused of copying them unless it's a miraculously uncomplicated thing to achieve. I'm not well versed on SVGs, but it seems that text can be sent for them dynamically... can images be passed, too?
* _MMA_ wonders if Thunar will one day replace Nautilus.
* dmccall hopes so
<nothlit> two seperate projects lol
<nothlit> with two seperate things integrated in
<terlmann> Nautilus rules
<terlmann> rules man
<terlmann> RULES
<terlmann> at least on my system
* _MMA_ goes back to idling.
<dmccall> Although even Thunar is pretty imperfect now, too, aside from its speed. We need integration between file choosers and the file manager, for example. There needs to be a centralized "Places" system in Gnome, including bookmarks and tagging
<dmccall> (Tagging being also a replacement to Emblems)
<nothlit> whats really annoying me is that theres no place that i can find
<nothlit> that defines where ~/.gtk-bookmarks are opened
<dmccall> As it is, every Places menu lists different places, and no two bookmarks menus are the same unless they have been set up to be that way in a horrible manner
<nothlit> so if it leave it as is, it opens it in pcmanfm, if i uninstall that, it opens it in thunar, if i uninstall that, it opens it in nautilus
<nothlit> and i've grepped through config files like mad
<nothlit> wow
<nothlit> they've started a petition, and put it on digg
<_MMA_> Who is "they"?
<nothlit> the angry forum people
<nothlit> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=555477&page=31
<_MMA_> lol. Wow. With _ALL_ the things wrong in the world. I just dont see how its worth the energy. :)
<terlmann> I think xfce is just a stripped down gnome
<terlmann> gnome rules
<terlmann> nuff said
<terlmann> and nautilus is soo much more powerful than thunar
<terlmann> I cannot number the diffs
<dmccall> Nautilus is pretty cool for a lot of things. Gnome VFS is under-rated :)
<terlmann> in any case the only thing I would like to see is reduced memory usage
<terlmann> especially the gnome panel
<terlmann> had it using 20 mb one time
<nothlit> gnome-vfs is sort of broken
<nothlit> any non-normal fs, gets stuck or slows down to bytes after 24 megs
<terlmann> (:)
<terlmann> .nick terl_away
<terl_away> O I O I O just go my way!!
<`23meg> gnomevfs is being phased out btw
<dmccall> Indeed :(
<dmccall> They keep phasing stuff out, but not phasing anything in
<dmccall> Kinda weird
<dmccall> Confuses me
<`23meg> how can they not phase in anything in place of gnomevfs?
<`23meg> gvfs is on the way
<troy_s> Wow... who did the 'orange' on the wiki?
<nothlit> troy_s: misosaki attached them
<Madpilot> link?
<troy_s> Did misosaki do them?>
<nothlit> i have to assume so
<troy_s> It is unfortunate that the page has now turned into a 'hey let's completely ignore what kwwii posted at the top in terms of tone and content'
<kwwii> hi troy_s
<kwwii> yeah, too bad
<kwwii> moin all
<nothlit> kwwii: hey how open is this meeting? should i publicise it? or just leave it to those who bother to read the mailing list/irc
<nothlit> morning
<kwwii> nothlit: sending an email with agenda in a bit, after I dig the sand out of my eyes
<kwwii> nothlit: totally open, it is on the fridge (I think it is already there at least) and it will be in ubuntu-meeting
<nothlit> kwwii: so we can invite the forumers etc?
<nothlit> cool, you got a spot
<kwwii> nothlit: we can post it on the forum but we need to make very clear that it is not about gutsy
<nothlit> ok, great
<nothlit> i sent you an email about uds btw
<kwwii> I have about 50 some emails to read up on from last night
<nothlit> np
<nothlit> kwwii: do you know whos in charge of art.u.c? i spoke to troy, he says hes not in charge and redirected me to a possible lead who hasn't responded yet
<kwwii> andreasn: nope, I have no idea who is responsible for that
<nothlit> ok, anyways, this looks like a nice simple open source gallery application we could configure and repurpose http://www.plogger.org/demo/
<kwwii> lol, I am too tired
<kwwii> hrm, where should I put the topics for the meeting on the wiki?
<lassegul> Good morning peeps
<nothlit> Incoming/Hardy/Meeting == Meeting 1 == ?
<titanix88> hi kwwii
<kwwii> hi titanix88
<kwwii> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Meetings
<kwwii> lol, forgot the time
<kwwii> anyone see anything that I left out there?
<nothlit> explanation of sabdfl wants and likes? dunno
<nothlit> i'm going to add some time zones in
<kwwii> cool
<lassegul> no it looks nice. time zones are good.
<kwwii> I think it is enought to explain that he is in charge for now
<`23meg> hi all
<`23meg> just posted to the forum thread about the meeting
* kwwii hums "send in the clowns"
<kwwii> :p
<artnay> `23meg: maybe it should be posted to appropriate part of forum, let's say art and design. now it's in a thread that is supposed to focus on totally different topic.
<nothlit> ok, updated time zones
<`23meg> artnay, I did state that it's not about the gutsy wallpaper
<nothlit> i just put all the european countries that i know people are from, don't know the time zones, sorry
<nothlit> time zone codes*
<artnay> `23meg: yes, I did read your post. many people have already given up on that thread and probably the targeted audience is browsing art & design forum. just a guess :-)
<artnay> when was the last artwork meeting? can anybody recall?
<nothlit> LOL, i just read the comment where somebody wants everything to be done on the forums
<artnay> nothlit: care to give the address?
<kwwii> link?
<nothlit> `23meg: not about the Gutsy wallpaper and its artwork selection process*
<nothlit> http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=3428513&postcount=304
<nothlit> artnay: i'm don't there has been one, perhaps during edgy
<nothlit> i don't know if there*
<artnay> well there's a point after all. there needs to be a clear distinction (rules) between wiki, launchpad, mailing list and forums
<artnay> as always, I'd concentrate on wiki and launchpad when it comes down to workflows & progress and mailing list/forums for normal user discussion
<artnay> nothlit: there was, we (a few active people like AndyFitz, klepas, bvc) arranged a meeting but people didn't follow the given agenda
<artnay> people went offtopic and started to show up their own mock-ups etc. plain terrible
<artnay> power of @ should be present in case of everything is about to fall apart :-)
<lassegul> nothlit: did you think any more about solving the problem with spreading content and work over too many platforms last night? About the gallery I mean
<lassegul> artnay: i agree
<nothlit> lassegul: yeah i pmed you
<lassegul> nothlit: thats right :)
<nothlit> i'm still trying to see about the server
<nothlit> lassegul: if you want to try to get the art.gnome.org system instead, i can email them, i left a quick message on the gnomeart channel, but no response
<lassegul> nothlit: but you dont say anything about the problem with seperating the work in too many platforms. When we both have ml, forums, wiki, irc AND GALLERY, this might end up create more confusion than it was supposed to do.
<artnay> nothlit: please, no, don't.
<lassegul> nothlit: no, i like the suggestions for systems
<nothlit> well, of course ideas should be written on the wiki
<artnay> it requires a lot of input. once there was AUC (art.ubuntu.com) but it simply didn't work well enough
<nothlit> but the way i see it, all visual work, mockups and themes included would do well to be put on a gallery
<artnay> the system requires lots of manual work, it didn't support imagemagick etc.
<nothlit> its cleaner, more accessible, and people can comment just the same
<artnay> lassegul: you mean forum gallery?
<artnay> that's just terrible /me thinks
<lassegul> artnay: no we were talking about getting something with the same functionality as art.gnome.org
<nothlit> artnay: do you know who's in charge of the a.u.c?
<nothlit> artnay: and its its a homebrew system
<nothlit> if its*
<artnay> nothlit: it was hosted by canonical and as far as I recall jeff was in charge of that
<lassegul> artnay: instead of using the wiki to submit contributions and comments.
<artnay> lassegul: yes, but you can't speak of functionality in case of AUC
<lassegul> artnay: I see
<nothlit> artnay: jeff?
<artnay> nothlit: klepas might be able to enlighten you more than I can
<nothlit> artnay: oh ok
<artnay> nothlit: jdub
<artnay> I might be very wrong about that since it's been a long time already
<lassegul> kwwii: you still dont think the gallery thing is such a good idea, is that right?
<kwwii> lassegul: I am not sure if spreading things out even further is a good idea
<artnay> it all comes down to functionality and requirements. which system to use is not the question, first we have to gather a QA list for artwork process
<kwwii> we already have a problem that people do not look at all the places for information
<kwwii> adding another place would only confuse things more
<artnay> because it's not clearly told where to look for what information
<artnay> that should be told at /ArtWork
<artnay> it once was *g*
<artnay> then those pages got completely overhauled
<kwwii> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Documentation/GetInvolved
<kwwii> guess we need to improve that
<artnay> yes, it contains some topics but still after reading the whole page it leaves the reader confused
<nothlit> kwwii: if we made a gallery system the one place that "outsiders" would look for progress it might work better though
<nothlit> and i still assert that the wiki is a bad place to put such a thing
<artnay> for example we could raise wiki and launchpad to be on top and then lower both mailing and irc not to forget forums
<nothlit> is launchpad used at all for the artwork process rather than package submission/bug tracking etc?
<kwwii> suggest adding that as a topic for the meeting on the mailing list then
<artnay> nothlit: yes, who would keep the gallery up-to-date? that's just duplication of work for what?
<nothlit> artnay: no duplication of work
<nothlit> artnay: artists could submit their visual work to the gallery system directly
<lassegul> artnay: if this is what we want to do, we move all that work to gallery. no doublework
<nothlit> and keep the ideas and guidelines on the wiki, where written work is best placed
<artnay> well this should be discussed very througly before the 2nd of oct
<lassegul> yep. you coming to uds nothlit?
<nothlit> lassegul: i sent kwwii an email, indicating my interest. if i know there is a spot available i'll for permission to go and see from there
<nothlit> i'll ask for*
<lassegul> nothlit: great
<terlmann> hey troy
<terlmann> troy_s : yours were the best , IMHO , of the category we were creating for. Keep up the good work and make more details in future ;-P
<terlmann> kwwii... I know this sounds silly.... but what about just using this ? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/OranSun is a very good theme... and I think parts of it should be considered for gutsy and even hardy... I recall dapper also having a bright , shiny theme that seemed to sparkle.
<terlmann> kwwii , is nothlit the defacto documenter of the art process ? because I have made a page at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/HardyIdeas that totally outdoes https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Hardy/ConceptArt in terms of clarity and definition
<kwwii> terlmann: actually, i like that wallpaper a lot - but does that look like the pics at the top of the wiki page?
<terlmann> kwwii , I did not mean the wallpaper :-)
<terlmann> to be more specific , the gtk , icons....
<terlmann> login and splach
<terlmann> would make a great presentation for the LTS
<terlmann> just like dapper
<terlmann> they would then look similar
<kwwii> terlmann: we can look into something like that for the future but I think that we are going in a much darker direction in the future
<kwwii> more like black and orange
<terlmann> darker ? I was hoping lighter.
<terlmann> this stinks. we should call ourself the UPS os
<kwwii> to answer your other question: nobody is the official documenter of the art process as we are still working out exactly what the process is
<terlmann> as a matter of fact we should approach UPS to use our os :-)
<kwwii> terlmann: you should attend the meeting where we will discuss the topics I posted to the wiki and the mailing list
<terlmann> kwwii : please at some point examine the pages mentioned.
<terlmann> the meeting will be here I presume ?
<kwwii> nope, it will be in ubuntu-meeting
<kwwii> read the mail or check the wiki
<kwwii> in fact, let me change the topic
* mode/#ubuntu-artwork [+o kwwii]  by ChanServ
<lassegul> terlmann: theres no problem with merging the best from both wiki pages. Yours has some more stuff on it, nothlits one is cleaner. we'll fix em both after the meeting.
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-artwork:kwwii] : Meeting Tuesday Oct 2nd in #ubuntu-meeting (http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Meetings has a list of topics)
<terlmann> well whatever happens I want to be in charge of it. I consider myself the resident grammar nazi :-)
<terlmann> ok so at the beginning of next month
<kwwii> next tuesday
<lassegul> werent you the gimp wizard?
<terlmann> I am that too
<terlmann> gimp is special to me
<terlmann> wanna see some of my work ?
<kwwii> I would like to seperate the rules from the submissions
<terlmann> kwwii : it shall be done
<kwwii> and edit the main page to point to most important stuff
<kwwii> and edit the GettingInvolved so that it is actually usefull
<lassegul> kwwii: the main page must link to the other pages and fuction as a starting point.
<lassegul> *function
<terlmann> It shall be also done. Anything you mark as particularily important among the submissions will be given it's own page if a fullsize version is uploadfed
<kwwii> lassegul: exactly
<kwwii> another very important thing is that we mark any pages with rules as "works in progress" to prevent someone reading something that is only halfway done taking it as the final rules
<terlmann> hey lasse
<terlmann> lassegul
<terlmann> I wanna show you my gimping
* terlmann tries to hand lassegul a 5 mb .jpg of his work
* terlmann pounds on the DCC door
<terlmann> kwwii : some rules are just common sense. And I recommend we phase out png entirely. why not .jpg and .svg ?
<kwwii> terlmann: as wallpaper you mean
<kwwii> 
<kwwii> erm
<kwwii> ?
<terlmann> just because .jpg is lossy doesnt mean it is a bad format
<nothlit> because PNG is more open, and lossless
<terlmann> and we keep loading massive .png files to our pages
<kwwii> png often leads to much larger files I think that we will need to use jpgs in the future for most of the wallpapers
<terlmann> true waste of bandwidth. you could specify final submissions be made in .png
<terlmann> And I heard something about that dammed patent on .gif files running out ?
<terlmann> isn't that another format we have never used ?
<terlmann> it could come into play soon.
<kwwii> png is a thousand times better than gif
<terlmann> for animation ?
<kwwii> well, thousands of colors better
<kwwii> mng works great
<nothlit> gif is fine for certain web work, otherwise i don't see the point
<terlmann> we could do a simple animated picture for the GDM
<terlmann> gotta go
<terlmann> /n terl_away
<lassegul> terl_away\: sorry, I was answering som mails, didnt see the dcc.
<nothlit> kwwii: is the iso becoming a tighter fit? or is it the resolutions that are increasing
<kwwii> nothlit: can you send me an email with your name, address, age, and what you've worked on in ubuntu
<kwwii> nothlit: as things stand now we are exactly at the limit
<nothlit> kwwii: sure, can i send fluxbuntu stuff as well?
<kwwii> but because of a stupid file name that we cannot change we have to use png this time around
<kwwii> nothlit: definitely
<lassegul> kwwii: thats the coolest reason ever.
<kwwii> lassegul: that will be the first thing that we change for hardy, trust me
<nothlit> kwwii: do i send attachments or links in terms of artwork
<nothlit> kwwii: or just descriptions of everything
<lassegul> i gotta do some work. and then go pick up my new laptop. see you guys later tonight.
<nothlit> lassegul: congrats on a new laptop :)
<nothlit> lassegul: for your birthday?
<lassegul> no, for UDS :)
<lassegul> bought a 12 inch Amilo Pro 3250
<nothlit> nice
<kwwii> nothlit: descriptions would be enough
<nothlit> on the UDS part, i have to google the laptop model
<kwwii> lassegul: cool
<lassegul> yeah i think maybe i wrote the wrong model number
<lassegul> why dont the call the laptop "Frank"
<lassegul> instead of "xucy23132wd"
<lassegul> its Fujitsu Siemens Amilo Pro V3205 DualC
<lassegul> T5200, 1GB, 120GB
<_MMA_> kwwii: The Fluxbuntu stuff is impressive. :)
<lassegul> _MMA_: i agree.
<lassegul> im off
<_MMA_> nothlit: Joe gave me a peak. ;)
<kwwii> I love fluxbox - used it for a long time
<nothlit> _MMA_: its on troy's blog as well
<_MMA_> nothlit: Oh really? I didnt know. :)
<nothlit> lemme show you some of the stuff that was <not> selected as default lol, warning, not mine https://people.fluxbuntu.org/~nothlit/otherfluxart
<nothlit> thats a peek at how much (fantastic work) has gone into the flux release :)
* terl_away\ cries
<terl_away\> /name terlmann
* terlmann sees kwwii handing nothlit crisp fresh greenbacks...
<terlmann> hey kwwii , you seem to want nothlit's resume, but I will beat up his artwork with my Ultimate series I just thought up...
<nothlit> kwwii: Email Sent
<nothlit> joejaxx: finally
<joejaxx> lol
<joejaxx> yeah
<terlmann> any of you ever get to level 11 in gnometris ?
<terlmann> :-D
<terlmann> yea , my gnometris mastery should get me a job.. or not...
<joejaxx> gnometris?
* terlmann inkscapes nothlit into a black hole
<joejaxx> lol ?
* terlmann goes to play halo 3
<terlmann> brb
<terlmann> am back
<luisbg> hello all
<terlmann> hello
<terlmann> so nothlit : you code on the fluxbuntu release ?
<joejaxx> luisbg: hi
<luisbg> hey joejaxx
<luisbg> hey terlmann
<joejaxx> :)
* terlmann peers in..
<kwwii> oh man, he is finally asleep - nobody chat too loud or he will wake up
<joejaxx> kwwii: lol
<kwwii> my wife left on a business trip today - I have been running around like a chicken with it's head cut off
<joejaxx> :\
<joejaxx> has your hectic day died down yet?
<_MMA_> kwwii: Mine just got up from a nap. :)
<kwwii> whew...time for a bloody mary
<kwwii> it is soo wierd that the apartment is soo quite and dark
<kwwii> joejaxx: yeah, finally
<joejaxx> kwwii: oh ok :)
<nothlit`alpha> Misosaki: heyas
<Misosaki> Hey nothlit
<nothlit`alpha> Misosaki: some people were wondering if you did the Orange set
<Misosaki> nothlit: Guilty as charged. There were lots of better works though, so it was a learning experience for what it was worth.
<nothlit`alpha> Misosaki: the last two are quite nice :) no wonder you were a staunch defender of inkscape :)
<Misosaki> nothlit: Thanks, heheh. Not really satisfied with the set in retrospect, but that's normal, lol.
<Misosaki> Inkscape can do quite a bit, it just has its own quirks that one should get used to, like other apps.
<Misosaki> nothlit: Anything new on your end?
<nothlit> artwork wise no
<nothlit> you can see i've suggested a topic be added to the agenda
<nothlit> and i've been talking to matthew nuzum about art.ubuntu.com and drupal etc
<nothlit> hes told me that he will be attending the meeting
<Misosaki> nods ... a good one. Not sure why we haven't had something in place like this before.
<nothlit> but otherwise, i have his concerns down and how drupal will work
<nothlit> Misosaki: well there was, i think it was just more of a showcase
<kwwii> art.ubuntu.com was removed because it was really out of date
<nothlit`alpha> he said they shut it down after the intrusions into the community run servers
<Misosaki> nothlit: Ah ... it's just that things like this will (hopefully) lead to things being better organised ... makes things easier in the long run
<nothlit`alpha> and that it got 30000 visits per week with no new content for months
<Misosaki> nods
<Misosaki> So basically people can register and comment there while the artists post their work there? Will comments on the artwork in general stick to the wiki or...?
<nothlit`alpha> no, no comments on the wiki for bypassers
<nothlit`alpha> the wiki will be used for written work, and published pages like guidelines and style
<nothlit`alpha> but that way people don't have to care about the wiki/irc/mailing list
<nothlit`alpha> in the end all the bypassers want to see is pretty pictures, while also being demonstrated the progress of hardy
<nothlit`alpha> art.ubuntu.com would seem like and obvious place then, considering its previous traffic
<nothlit`alpha> an*
<Misosaki> nods
<Misosaki> Hi andreasn
<andreasn> Misosaki: hi!
<Misosaki> So all bypasser comments on art.ubuntu.com, or none?
<nothlit`alpha> could you rephrase that?
<Misosaki> Well, since there won't be comments on the wiki, just confirming if comments will be directed to art.ubuntu.com, seeing there might be mixed feelings about having (lots of) feedback
<nothlit`alpha> yeah
<nothlit`alpha> well thats why its on the agenda
<lassegul> Hi people
<nothlit`alpha> so if people feel uncomfortable about that, we can use the wiki, and the ambassador system
<nothlit`alpha> heyas lassegul
<lassegul> Misosaki: but by bypasser comments you dont mean comments from people who arent registered?
<Misosaki> Hi lassegul
<lassegul> hi to you too.
<Misosaki> Hi Skiessi
<Skiessi> hi
<Misosaki> lassegul: Well ... registered with art.ubuntu.com?
* Skiessi just upgraded his old Duron system to Intel Core 2 E4400
<Misosaki> Will the system allow anonymous posting too?
<lassegul> Misosaki: the optimal solution would be that you could log on with your forum or launchpad ID, but that might be hard work.
<lassegul> hard work = bad
<Misosaki> :)
<lassegul> Misosaki: but I wouldnt think anonymous postings will do us much good.
<nothlit`alpha> lassegul: by bypasser i mean those not actively involved in the proccess
<lassegul> nothlit`alpha: ok.
<Misosaki> nothlit and lassegul: Okay
<Misosaki> So people would register if they want to leave a comment
<lassegul> Misosaki: I think that is a must.
<Misosaki> lassegul: nods
<lassegul> i just saw Pablo Fransisco live. He's so funny.
<nothlit`alpha> one thing that matthew was concerned about was that it would need to be actively monitored
<nothlit`alpha> so porn isn't uploaded to a community site, etc
<lassegul> ok. then we need to put some manpower there.
<lassegul> we should map where we need to put manpower, so we can make realistic plans
<Misosaki> Was anyone monitoring the wiki before?
<Misosaki> Or was it small enough that it didn't need it?
<lassegul> how many do we expect being on this continiously for the coming six months?
<Misosaki> That would depend on how much time people are willing to volunteer on average/week
<lassegul> I wouldnt say we should depend on too many.
<nothlit`alpha> i think
<nothlit`alpha> all we would need is automatic emails to a few responsible people
<lassegul> yeah for this task, but there might be more work that needs to be done.
<nothlit`alpha> unless you want to do it the other way, an approve things that are uploaded
<lassegul> on a regular basis.
<lassegul> nothlit`alpha: taht also takes some work
<nothlit`alpha> 21:39:11 <newz2000> The reason I suggested drupal is because the sysadmins host many of the loco teams now and the list of software packages they're willing to support is short.
<nothlit`alpha> 21:39:17 <newz2000> drupal being one of the preferred
<nothlit`alpha> 21:41:08 <nothlit> Ahh
<nothlit`alpha> 21:41:52 <nothlit> I assumed that the teams themselves would still do some managing, so I suggested something that I could easily manage myself.
<nothlit`alpha> 21:42:17 <nothlit> if Drupal would work better with the sysadmins, and it works with what the team is trying to accomplish that would be great too
<nothlit`alpha> 21:42:22 <newz2000> well, you would still manage the site, however the server side is managed by them
<nothlit`alpha> so afaik, it looks like the sysadmins would manage security etc
<nothlit`alpha> and all we would do is use the system itself
<lassegul> nothlit`alpha: thats a relief
<kwwii> night all
<lassegul> gnight
<nothlit`alpha> cyas
<lassegul> nothlit`alpha: i wanna do something soon. get started some way.
<lassegul> nothlit`alpha: any ideas?
<nothlit`alpha> lassegul: you can start writing ideas concerning the two meeting agendas
<lassegul> nothlit`alpha: yeah.
<terlmann> It's a pity I cannot take some pictures of the mornings here
<terlmann> all orange and red
<terlmann> and the morning star around here is beautiful
<Misosaki> Heh, hello terlmann
<terlmann> hello
<Misosaki> And where can one see this lovely sight of which you speak?
<terlmann> In eastern kansas
<Misosaki> Ah. And with nice temps to go with it too, probably
<terlmann> Now actually these last few days , just this week , it is getting frosty around the edges..
<terlmann> In the morning
<terlmann> before the sun comes up
<terlmann> and my allergies get me sneezing about that time , so I get up
<terlmann> I tried it on a camera belonging to a family member but the resolution is rustic
<Misosaki> Rustic can be expressive
<Misosaki> Maybe also wallpaper material ;)
<terlmann> rustic as in very grainy and low-res
<terlmann> very low res
<terlmann> lower than web cam
<Misosaki> Noise can be good thing, just depends on how it's used
<terlmann> I mean really low res as in you can barely make out what is in the picture
<terlmann> man
<terlmann> don't you get it ?
<Misosaki> Well, if you just want the subject matter then sure, it's horrible
<terlmann> you are becoming annoying. The possibility of the camera mentioned being capable or worthy of taking anything for the Ubuntu art contests is impossible.
<Misosaki> ?
<Misosaki> Didn't mention anything about art contests ... just wallpaper
<terlmann> wallpaper
<terlmann> same thing to me
<terlmann> it's a contest with myself to see how high of a standard I can set
<Misosaki> Have seen artists use noise as texture, with even a simple distort filter to it
<Misosaki> There are also professional photographers who take images with disposable cameras
<terlmann> at this point wallpapers of real-life settings need to be a high enough res and quality you cannot tell whether you are looking at a desktop or through a window.
<Misosaki> The outcome blown up is grainy, but can add certain effects if that's what they're looking to do
<Misosaki> Sometimes part of the creativity is finding new ways to use what is at first glance junk
<terlmann> well that is true if the final user can see the creativity :-P
<terlmann> but what if he knows nothing of that ?
<Misosaki> Well, some can, some can't ... it happens
<Misosaki> First, if the artist wants, he or someone can explain that. If the person still doesn't like it, then that's fine too.
<Misosaki> Can't please everyone.
<Misosaki> As long as you're happy with what you do.
<terlmann> sorry , I cannot be happy :-)
<Misosaki> lol
<terlmann> not at the moment
<Misosaki> Heh. Then get a better camera.
<Misosaki> :)
<terlmann> Can't
<nothlit`alpha> if you don't have the budget, nothing wrong with using a film camera and getting scans
<terlmann> no money
<terlmann> can't do that either mano
<terlmann> life in the boonies is sucky
<terlmann> I get some funding from grandparents every 6 months though
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-09-27
<Misosaki> Cool
<terlmann> how is this cool ?
<nothlit> the funding from your grandparents
<terlmann> I'm a GEEK in the luddite camp !!
<terlmann> really ?
<Misosaki> Hi bcasanov
<terlmann> how much do you think they give me and for how much manual labor ?
<Misosaki> lol Was referring to the money
<_MMA_> Wait, wait, wait. :)
<_MMA_> "(08:39:50 PM) _MMA_: terlmann: How old are you?" "(08:40:24 PM) terlmann: 22"
<_MMA_> "terlmann: I get some funding from grandparents every 6 months though"
<_MMA_> And you're waitin' on $ from the Grandparents? :)
<terlmann> more like I go there on vacation and I am actually 19
<terlmann>  :D
<terlmann> :D :D :D
<lassegul> lol
<Misosaki> lol
<lassegul> this is stupid
<lassegul> :)
<terlmann> I love to laugh up my facts
* _MMA_ thinks "22" is really 12. ;)
<terlmann> nothing like a little resume padding
<terlmann> actually you can check my profile online at deviantart.com
<bcasanov> Hi
<terlmann> I haven't been there in a year though
<lassegul> bcasanov: hi man
<terlmann> just telling ya
<terlmann> heya bsasanov
<_MMA_> terlmann: Be cause the _NO_ way to lie online. ;)
<_MMA_> *Because
<terlmann> MMA : you may kiss my %$$
<lassegul> terlmann: you have like to things in your gallery
<lassegul> *two
<terlmann> I'm elit0r than you
<bcasanov> I'm new to IRC and the ubuntu artwork channel.
<_MMA_> Yep. 12.
<_MMA_> ;)
<terlmann> lassegul : I have gibberish in my gallery
<lassegul> i second that emotion
<terlmann> I havn't been ther in a  year
<Misosaki> bcasanov: Welcome
<bcasanov> Thanks!
<lassegul> bcasanov: whats up
<terlmann> You want to see my work lassegul ?
<lassegul> terlmann: yeah but no dccs
<bcasanov> I'm just surfing here to see what's going on.
<terlmann> no dcc ?
<lassegul> terlmann: no upload them somewhere
<terlmann> it's a pain in the ass to upload this stuff
<terlmann> especially on my bandwidth
<lassegul> terlmann: its a pain in the ass with dccs
<nothlit> bcasanov: do you have any questions about irc?
<lassegul> terlmann: your bandwith is the same if you upload directly to me or to some site.
<terlmann> not to filters
<Misosaki> bcasanov: Feel free to jump in whenever
<lassegul> terlmann: what the *** are you talking about?
<lassegul> :)
<terlmann> And when I upload more than 1 mb to a site , it is a little hindered
<terlmann> what I mean is that my bandwidth is filtered by kinds of requests
<bcasanov> Nothlit: Not right now.  Although it's kind of confusing because responses come and go so fast.
<terlmann> some just go under the wall and never get noticed
<lassegul> terlmann: ok then just mail me at    lasse at sosialisme dot no
<joejaxx> lol
<bcasanov> Misosaki: Thanks!
<terlmann> k
<nothlit> bcasanov: that unfortunately, only comes with time
<nothlit> bcasanov: you'll get used to it :)
<bcasanov> True.
<bcasanov> :)
<Misosaki> :)
<nothlit> bcasanov: although, if you're talking about #ubuntu, i doubt anyone follows the entire thing
<bcasanov> That's right.
<bcasanov> It's a very large channel.
<lassegul> bcasanov: its usually quiter around here.
<lassegul> *quieter
<bcasanov> Yep.  That makes it more personal, I guess.
<lassegul> terlmann: help me out grammar nazi, am i writing this the right way
<terlmann> The chat channel does not have any definition of standard english applied to it
<terlmann> Your making fun of me right ?
<joejaxx> lol
<bcasanov> Could someone tell me, what will be discussed in the next artwork meeting?
<lassegul> terlmann: im just teasing.
<nothlit> bcasanov: let me grab you the agenda
<terlmann> bcasanov : the rules !
<bcasanov> Thank you!
<Misosaki> bcasanov: The link will have the goods
<lassegul> terlmann: and im not english so i do have some bad grammar
<Misosaki> bcasanov: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Meetings
<nothlit> oh, there you go lol
<terlmann> the title has  been updated to reflect the meeting
<terlmann> the title of this channel
<terlmann> or rather the topic
<lassegul> terlmann: did you mail me?
<terlmann> not yet
<nothlit> i've also suggested on further item, or rather, specified a particular area to focus on, in item number two.
<nothlit> its in the mailing list
<terlmann> 25-60kbs up/down is rather slow
<terlmann> I use webmail as well
<terlmann> I will just post it to image shack
<bcasanov> Gracias!  or rather, thanks again!  (I speak mostly Spanish.)
<terlmann> I had to reduce the quality quite a bit
<Misosaki> bcasanov: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
<Misosaki> Just look at nothlit's latest message
<bcasanov> Well, I have to leave right now because I was just taking a break from work.  Thank you all for your help and for the nice personal introduction.  I'll be visiting again soon.
<terlmann> lassegul : http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/6659/droprh3.jpg << is purely my picture
<terlmann> I just uploaded
<terlmann> it
<terlmann> it was originally 5 mb
<terlmann> so I reduced quality at great length
<joejaxx> terlmann: lol
<terlmann> well for a 5 MB jpg to go to a .5 MB jpg...
<terlmann> quite a change
<lassegul> terlmann: i like the colours. but im really sick of seeing obvious gimp effects.
<terlmann> well the image is entirely gimped
<terlmann> I made it last fall
<terlmann> No source was used
<terlmann> lassegul : my use of the effects was effective though.
<lassegul> terlmann: im not talking about you using gimp, but youve used some "ripple" effect. and everyone who has ever used that one before know what you did.
<Misosaki> Ditto about the colours
<terlmann> I used multiple ripple effects
<terlmann> not just one
<lassegul> terlmann: so what you basicaly got here is a nice set of colours, that has a lot of potential, and then you used the ripple effect.
<Misosaki> Kind of also reminds me of a wall kwwii posted the other day, without the rippling
<terlmann> as I said as well , the image you are viewing is 1/10 quality
<terlmann> and if you do not like waves I can always use my handy Gaussian filter  :-P
<lassegul> terlmann: im just saying im a little tired of the gimp effects. they dont show off your skills.
<terlmann> well I hate Inkscape and any kind of math based art
<lassegul> im not saying you have to use something other than gimp. Just stay clear of obvious effects. when you use them, be subtle.
<nothlit> Thats what paint work in gimp is for lol :D
<terlmann> So I will have something out soon but You will see plenty of gimp effects (or none , I still have my Gaussy :-P )
<Misosaki> http://sinecera.de/rainbow.jpg
<Misosaki> Complements of kwwii
<lassegul> thats the same picture!
<terlmann> yep
<terlmann> it is the same plasma seed
<terlmann> from the plasma plugin in the gimp :-P
<terlmann> or at least very close
<Misosaki> Ah
<lassegul> hehee. looks like kwwii ripped you off terlmann
<terlmann> perhaps our minds are subliminaly  linked :-)
<lassegul> :)
<terlmann> they are a little different though..
<terlmann> mine has some yellow below and navy where his cyan is
<terlmann> but he does need to see this
<terlmann> very funny
<Misosaki> lols You could probably show him the next time he's in, just for the heck of it
<terlmann> I will :-)
<terlmann> And I will dcc him the original timestamped file
<terlmann> just for some ownage
<terlmann> I am telepathics ! everyone is copyinz ME :-D
<Misosaki> Hehe
<lassegul> terlmann: ive got a suggestion. I like your colours. so try making a picture entirely without any effects but maybe blur. Just use layers.
<coz_> evening all
<Misosaki> Hi coz_
<lassegul> lassegul: then your next picture will have the strength of both layers and effects
<coz_> Misosaki, hey guy
<lassegul> hi
<coz_> lassegul, hello :)
<lassegul> terlmann: im not teasing or trying to be mean, just a friendly suggestion. because i do like those colours.
<terlmann> well whatever I will do , a thorough Gaussian blur come last :-)
<coz_> anything new an interesting happening with the team at all ?
<Misosaki> coz_: Define interesting?
<coz_> Misosaki, beyond same old same old :)
<Misosaki> We're just looking at terlmann's work
<coz_> ah may I look as well ?
<terlmann> wait one
<terlmann> I will look among my diminutive creations
<terlmann> for something better
<terlmann> nope
<terlmann> :D
<terlmann> not for now anyway
<_MMA_> Then wouldnt taking it to a PM be better?
<terlmann> only really good work I did (also with the gimp) was my special branded pic online
<coz_> _MMA_, you the above conversation?
<_MMA_> Its like talking to a group of people, and showing 1 person the pic of what you're talking about.
<_MMA_> coz_: You wanted to look. Im sure others would as well.
<coz_> _MMA_, ah i see :)
<lassegul> 00:44 < terlmann> lassegul :  http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/6659/droprh3.jpg <<  is purely my picture
<coz_> _MMA_, well I just arrived so
<lassegul> theres the link from before you joined.
<coz_> lassegul, oh thanks :)
<coz_> terlmann, this is an abstract color comp ?
<terlmann> yea
<coz_> terlmann, nice   I like the colors also... what was your goal with this image?
<coz_> terlmann, was this a test of what you could do in gimp?
<Misosaki> Hi swj
<coz_> terlmann, sorry guy... I may be pushing for something I shouldnt have been
<swj> diverting the subject away from the WP for a while ;) I am wondering if any you know why the gnome icons/tango still have some blurry icons in app and system menu.  I realize you don
<swj> ignore the last part ;)
<swj> I realize you do not actually have anything to do with the gnome icons...I'm just wondering how to fix or will it be fixed before release
<nothlit> swj: if no one knows, you should file a bug on launchpad
<Misosaki> coz_: He's probably just away
<nothlit> or on g-i-t if you think its upstream
<Misosaki> swj: Maybe because tango and gnome don't use the same size thing?
<Misosaki> 22x22 vs 24x24
<Misosaki> wb kwwii
<kwwii> hi Misosaki
<kwwii> btw...is your real name Misosaki?
<kwwii> just wondering
<kwwii> my nick comes from my name; Kenneth Wesely Wimer II
<swj> hm thanks
<nothlit> Misosaki: btw, do you teach origami or something? was trying to find your portfolio and came across your wiki page :P
<kwwii> so people call me Ken or Wes
<Misosaki> lols No ... it's an anagram for a nick I most often use, but since the other nick is so short, it's often not allowed in some regs lols
<Misosaki> Helen's fine, if you insist (or Hell)
<kwwii> lol
<Misosaki> Usually it's just Iko
<kwwii> you can call me claire, we already have a few of those at the company
<Misosaki> lol
<lassegul> kwwii: i dont get it :S
<Misosaki> I have people call me Margaret, but well, that's another story
<kwwii> lassegul: if you worked for canonical you would
<kwwii> we have two claires
<kwwii> claire one and claire two
<lassegul> yeah i spoke with one clear today
<lassegul> *claire
<kwwii> you spoke with clare one
<Misosaki> (Incidentally related to the origami thing -- another fellow member is called Margaret)
<kwwii> claire one
<kwwii> the other claire is leave after having a child so she is not around much
<Misosaki> So you're the other claire now? lol
<kwwii> is ....on.... leave
<kwwii> lol, I wish
<lassegul> lol
<kwwii> my wife is on a business trip as of today so I am a single father until the weekend
<Misosaki> Fun
<kwwii> *stress*
<kwwii> luckily I am the cook in the house anyway
<Misosaki> There's always McD
<kwwii> now if I was the one who washed the clothes
<kwwii> Misosaki: lol, we do not eat fast food
<Misosaki> kwwii: No way lol
<kwwii> I cooked a bolognese sauce for noodles for tomorrow this evening
<joejaxx> cranberry juice ftw! :D
* lassegul is eating yesterdays birtday cake and drinking milk. mmmhm.
<Misosaki> Hehehe, happy belated b-day, lassegul
<kwwii> my wife's father and sister will come for lunch tomorrow
<kwwii> I used to work as a cook a long time ago
<kwwii> actually, I opened several restaurants
<nothlit> awesome
<lassegul> kwwii: whats your speciality?
<lassegul> (i love hearing about tasty food)
<kwwii> lassegul: pretty much anything
<kwwii> I am not so good at asian food outside of sushi and sashimi
<Misosaki> Doesn't matter ... as long as you make lots of it and add free sake to the mix
<kwwii> my wife can still make better potatoe salad and mashed potatoes than I can
<kwwii> she is german and those are german specialties
<kwwii> spelling
<coz_> kwwii, but can she paint with them :)
<coz_> just a joke :)
<kwwii> lol
<lassegul> this is an awesome animation. http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1777187
<kwwii> my wife is the least creative person in the world
<lassegul> kind of reminds me of Pink Floyd The wall movie animaton.
<Misosaki> kwwii: Btw, was just looking at your site ... nice icon work
<coz_> I wonder if his parents got upset after they saw the smudges all over the room :)
<lassegul> coz_: i would think so.
<coz_> :)
<coz_> but it was for arts sake  :)
<Misosaki> @link: Oops
<Misosaki> lol
<kwwii> dude, that is some freaking, amazing shit
<kwwii> lassegul, I mean
<kwwii> nifty
<kwwii> I like it
<kwwii> Misosaki: well, been around for while
<lassegul> kwwii: you did understand that i didnt make this?
<kwwii> oxygen was my first icon project all on my own
<kwwii> i was everaldo's boss for crystal
<coz_> nice^^^
<kwwii> and I knew what I needed to improve
<Misosaki> Ah
<kwwii> my website is pretty crappy though
<kwwii> I never really got finished
<kwwii> the job at canonical kinda took front row
<coz_> kwwii, you are now working for coninical/
<coz_> ?
<kwwii> coz_: yepp, since January I work for them fulltime
<coz_> kwwii, very cool  i assume you didnt have to move to south africa? :)
<kwwii> I did two 6 month contracts before that
<kwwii> I am an american who lives in germany
<coz_> kwwii, oh nice!  what is it you do at coninical?
<kwwii> coz_: I do all the kubuntu artwork, a bit of edubuntu and I lead the ubuntu artwork
<kwwii> art director without getting paid for it
<kwwii> so to speak
<coz_> kwwii, very nice     ...love edubuntu
<kwwii> anyway
<kwwii> time for sleep
<coz_> kwwii, but you get paind right ?
<coz_> paid
<kwwii> epp
<kwwii> yepp
<coz_> cool
<kwwii> sleep now
<kwwii> see you all tomorrow
<coz_> kwwii, ok guy sleep well
<lassegul> ill turn in as well
<lassegul> good night peeps.
<terlmann> kwwii!
<terlmann> I just got bach'
<terlmann> back
<terlmann> was watching the ending of halo 3 :D
<terlmann> http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/6659/droprh3.jpg
<terlmann> go here kwwii
<terlmann> and observe something very weird
<terlmann> One half year ago, I made the picture at that link
<terlmann> http://sinecera.de/rainbow.jpg is yours right ?
<terlmann> strange I say
<terlmann> very strange
<terlmann> I never shared mine with anyone
<kwwii> terlmann: that is gimp magic and show what happens when people play around with plugins
<kwwii> anyway, I am in bed aleady
<kwwii> night, again
<terlmann> night
<Misosaki> Night kwwii
<coz_> is troy_s  here this evening ? :)
<coz_> he must be asleep :)
<Misosaki> Haven't heard from him the past few hours
<coz_> Misosaki, ah ok I am sure he is in bed it must be aroun3am there
<Misosaki> coz_: Ah
<coz_> i will have to stop by earlier then   ...ok guys have a good night   all :)
<coz_> well i could t sleep :)
<kwwii> for anyone who hasn't seen this yet:
<kwwii> http://developers.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/03/12/1449201&from=rss
<dmccall> Ah, Google Tech Talks is great :)
<troy_s> These bloody lynchups are going to drive me to drink.
<kworx> lo
<lassegul> hi
<bersace> Hi every one
<bersace> who's responsible for the new artwork ?
<bersace> is it planned to update GDM screen to fit new background ?
<lassegul> bersace: kwwii is responsible. dont know about GDM theme
<bersace> nice !
<bersace> kwwii: !
<bersace> kwwii:  do you plan to update gdm theme
<bersace> ?
<bersace> i would like to update HumanList too
<kwwii> bersace: nope, no changes in gdm planned this time around
<bersace> kwwii: sad :/
<kwwii> what would you want to change?
<_MMA_> Everything!
<_MMA_> /me runs.
<lassegul> :)
<kwwii> :-)
* terlmann catches _MMA_
<kwwii> perhaps we could tweak the background or such
<terlmann> kwwii : I does that ? :-P
<terlmann> I am going to speak in a form of lolcat dialect sometimes...
<artnay> kwwii: the one with user list could need some tweaking
<terlmann> I did submit a theme artnay
<lassegul> kwwii: i saw that video on google tech you linked to this morning. it was interesting.
<artnay> but that's probably because of the limitations of GDM
<terlmann> the Avio theme , I think , i perfect
<artnay> terlmann: link?
<terlmann> I put it up on the wiki
<_MMA_> kwwii: So I guess the art deadlines meant nothing? We ran into this as well. Tweaking things at the last minute to help placate the masses.
<terlmann> at the gutsyideas page
<terlmann> at the end
<kwwii> _MMA_: yeah, I made those dates up
<_MMA_> :)
<kwwii> _MMA_: I planned a little extra time for situations like this
<_MMA_> Ahh....
<kwwii> but we don't want to spread that information around
<lassegul> it would be cool to get that GDM theme changed.
<_MMA_> ;)
<lassegul> just a little
<lassegul> just so people feel the evolution :)
<terlmann> lassegul : just agree with me to base it on Avio
<terlmann> :-P
<lassegul> terlmann: i would think its enough with a variation of the current theme.
<kwwii> lassegul: perhaps we could tweak things a bit, but I would not want to change it radically as there is little time left to fix something if we break it
<artnay> terlmann: avio is ok. currently the user list GDM theme looks like out of place
<terlmann> well Avio is one with a user list
<terlmann> I think of it as all-purpose
<terlmann> I altered it and added the elephant pic
<kwwii> terlmann: we can't change it that much
<artnay> terlmann: it should be based on the same bg as the normal GDM theme
<terlmann> for the next release , kwwii , please try to get some of the old , old ,OLD pics from hoary/warty considered . They are darker, which is what we are looking for , and bringing some of them back would be , like , cool... as no one has them right now.
* kwwii heads out ot pick up the kid from guitar lesson, bbiab
<terlmann> artnay : with Avio that is a 1 second trick
<artnay> terlmann: true
<kwwii> terlmann: I do not think that reverting to something old is a good idea...the plan so far is to go with black and orange
<kwwii> so  something darker but different
<kwwii> more orange
<kwwii> anyway...gotta run...
<terlmann> really old
<terlmann> really
<terlmann> I will google it
<lassegul> Maybe just alter the colour on the current so that it matches the new wallpaper?
<terlmann> http://www.cnet.co.uk/i/c/blg/cat/desktops/wallpapers/ubuntu.jpg
<terlmann> this should be the template :-)
<terlmann> we want to go to darker brown , this is darker brown... all artists should use this as the example..
<lassegul> terlmann: this was a template before it got removed for being bad
<terlmann> that was ?
<terlmann> aww
<artnay> who wants to go? kwwii just stated that the idea (his and sabdfl's?) is to focus on black and orange
<terlmann> shucks
<terlmann> kwwii said earlier that the focus was to get back to a darker color
<terlmann> anyway
<terlmann> http://kingcritter.pyrom.net/ubuntu/index.html
<terlmann> is a good artist
<terlmann> kwwwii should look into this
<artnay> generally the brown that has been used has been too dark! that's why people dislike it (imho)
<lassegul> black and orange can be very cool
<terlmann> imho the dapper and feisty releases were just right
<artnay> brown just hasn't been used well
<terlmann> but I hate orange , just for your information
<artnay> lassegul: agree :-)
<lassegul> artnay: i agree with your statement too :)
<terlmann> orange spells of chaos
<artnay> I liked how AndyFitz used brown, it wasn't dominant colour but it still was brown
* _MMA_ wishes he had the dark power to summon troy_s.
<lassegul> his cell phone number?
<_MMA_> (I actually have it)
<artnay> http://artnay.divxfinland.org/desktop.jpg - there's an example BG (just a teaser) from AndyFitz
* _MMA_ draws a pentagram on the floor and begins to chant.
<lassegul> artnay: yeah, this is nice.
<artnay> light brown is delicious ;-)
* terlmann grabs the holy water and shakes it all over the room
<terlmann> http://www.socksoff.co.uk/index.html << nother link for kwwii
<terlmann> to find artists at
<kwwii> re
<kwwii> terlmann: I said earlier that we want to go black and orange, which is darker :-)
<terlmann> I know that
<terlmann> I am trying to find you some decent artists
<terlmann> you do have a scrollback right ?
<terlmann> http://kingcritter.pyrom.net/ubuntu/index.html
<terlmann> and the socksoff above
<terlmann> and we have isobalax at deviantart
<lassegul> i dont like his use of brown.
<terlmann> these guys should be notified
<lassegul> terlmann: his name isnt isobalax
<kwwii> in any case I think that brown is not where we want to go
<lassegul> terlmann: i remember you said it wrong last time too, then you found the right name.
<lassegul> terlmann: what was that?
<terlmann> isobalax is the user tag on devianart
<lassegul> terlmann: no, its something similar.
<lassegul> terlmann: isobalax.deviantart.com doesnt work.
<terlmann> hmm
<terlmann> darnit
<terlmann> o yea
<terlmann> izobolax
<terlmann> with a z
<terlmann> brb
<bersace> kwwii: hi
<bersace> sorry, i didn't answered
<bersace> so, yes, i mean to migrate to gdm theme to be more consistent with the new background
<bersace> same for gnome-session splash (if any)
<JustinJoseph> so what is this?
<JustinJoseph> Abuntu?
<bersace> JustinJoseph: hi
<JustinJoseph> hi
<bersace> what are you talking about ?
<JustinJoseph> what is Abuntu?
<kwwii> hi bersace
<bersace> dunno
<JustinJoseph> lol
<JustinJoseph> what's this chat for?
<lassegul> JustinJoseph: this is the artwork channel for the official ubuntu
<JustinJoseph> I read art, figured it was a chatroom for artists?
<JustinJoseph> was I wrong?
<bersace> kind of
<kwwii> bersace: we can probably tweak the background a bit
<bersace> yep
<JustinJoseph> so no digital artists here?
<JustinJoseph> :p
<bersace> kwwii:  just a refresh
<kwwii> but I am not sure if sabdfl wants it to be really close to the wallpaper anyway
<bersace> :(
<lassegul> JustinJoseph: only digital artists here :P
<JustinJoseph> ah
<_MMA_> JustinJoseph: Ones that want to work on Ubuntu art yes.
<JustinJoseph> any examples of anyones art?
<JustinJoseph> :p
* bersace is a tired of sabdfl inconsistent taste
<terlmann> I have a openpg key now :-)
<terlmann> bersace : I agree
<kwwii> JustinJoseph: this channel is for artists who are interested in working on Ubuntu (and other variants thereof)
<bersace> seems that troy_s isn't there
<_MMA_> JustinJoseph: It isnt a "general art" channel. ;)
<bersace> did he give up ?
<JustinJoseph> What is ubuntu?
<_MMA_> lol
<terlmann> bersace : do you think that the FOSS community in general needs to slow down and stop changing the artwork every minor release ?
<bersace> JustinJoseph: http://www.ubuntu.com/getubuntu/download
<_MMA_> JustinJoseph: How did you come to be here?
<JustinJoseph> just a quick description would be great
<JustinJoseph> MMA - I did a search on art channels
<JustinJoseph> and this came up ;)
<bersace> terlmann: i wish that Ubuntu artwork follows a true guideline
<JustinJoseph> I run this business http://www.nemesisstudios.com/
<bersace> terlmann: 6 month is far too straight for artwork
<bersace> terlmann: 2 years is good
<bersace> so, for each LTS, we should ends an artwork cycle
<terlmann> bersace : wanna help me make one and blackmail kwwii and sabdfl into using it :-)
<JustinJoseph> I think I'm in the wrong place
<kwwii> bersace: that is basically the plan
<bersace> JustinJoseph: i think too
<JustinJoseph> sorry for disturbing you fellows
<lassegul> JustinJoseph: no problem
<JustinJoseph> :)
<_MMA_> np
<kwwii> JustinJoseph: what were you looking for?
<kwwii> oh well
<lassegul> lol
<bersace> hh
<bersace> :)
<bersace> kwwii: i thought it was something like that
<bersace> but it seems that Ubuntu has still some obscur decision especially regarding artwork
* bersace still doesn't understand how Human icons have been imposed
<kwwii> bersace: we are going to discuss straightening things out at the meeting on tuesday
<bersace> where ?
<kwwii> I will set some very concise rules
<bersace> seems fschoep gave up too :/
<kwwii> in #ubuntu-meeting at 17:00 UTC
<bersace> ok
<bersace> i shoud go there
* bersace adds an Evo reminder
* bersace wonders if he's on UTC or UTC+1
<lassegul> bersace: where do you live?
<bersace> Paris :)
<lassegul> bersace: your are utc+2
<bersace> lassegul: thanks, where have you got the info ?
<lassegul> http://www.worldtimeserver.com/time_converter.aspx?f=UTC
<bersace> lassegul: thanks
<terlmann> hey all I now have a home page on launchpad
<bersace> good
<bersace> which url ?
<bersace> kwwii: did read some news about gnome-scan ?
<bersace> i use PPA to publish latest version !
<bersace> :d
<bersace> :D
<terlmann> hey kwwii
<terlmann> is sabdfl@ubuntu.com marks adress ?
<terlmann> I have an Ubuntero account now ! I decided to simply rss sabdfl's blog instead of inviting him to ubuntero
<terlmann> I was going to ask if I could do a *Fake Mark* like the *Fake Steve* blog, but I decided it would be too much work :-)
<lassegul> hey kwwii, i know this is a bit off topic but; how do you fry a snitzel? Hard/soft heat? Do you cut it, too see if its ready?
<lassegul> :)
<lassegul> never mind
<kwwii> re
<kwwii> lassegul: I am a schnitzel expert :-)
<kwwii> first off, you have to pound the meat very thin - the thinner the better
<kwwii> bread it with flour, then egg, then breadcrumbs
* _MMA_ takes notes.
<kwwii> and fry it in a 50-50 mixture of oil and butter
<kwwii> not too hot
<kwwii> when it starts to get stiff it is done
<kwwii> it should be nice and brown
<kwwii> everyone loves my schnitzel ;-)
<kwwii> it is the german equivalent to a hamburger
<kwwii> s/to/of
<troy_s> jeebus there are a lot of folx idling in here atm.
<kwwii> if in doubt, order a schnitzel
<kwwii> hi troy_s
<troy_s> greetz kwwii-el-schnitzel-head.
<kwwii> troy_s: they all want my schnitzel recipe
<troy_s> lol
<troy_s> not surprising -- you live in the motherland of schnitzel now.
<kwwii> another amazingly good german foodstuff is curry-wurst
<kwwii> fatening as hell though
<troy_s> curried sausage?
<kwwii> exactly :-)
<kwwii> basically a thick sausage kinda like bologne, fried in a pan with a curry ketchup on it
<kwwii> that and a dner kebab sandwich make up the standards of german fast-food
<kwwii> but enough about food
<troy_s> yeah that sounds about as healthy as fresh fruit.
<troy_s> i need a bikeshed filter for the forums.
<kwwii> hehe, invent that and you might just get rich
<troy_s> the forums are wonderful, and the visceral responses are pretty solid.  it gets to be an issue when people pop off about theory without having a droplet of foundation.
<troy_s> it also is a bit of a mixmash as the page turned into what appears to be 'hey this is what i can do'
<troy_s> as opposed to following a concrete course
<troy_s> (as expected, as the lessons learned have since been forgotten by a newer audience)
<kwwii> I have a theory about the length of a thread - it is proportionaly related to the amount of bikeshed
<troy_s> There certainly is bikeshed, but one can't just flush everything as it has turned into the defacto thread for discussion.
<kwwii> getting things back to a normal discussion is pretty hard though - turning a blind eye to the bikeshed is the best way but it is not easy
* kwwii is off to pick up the kid from basketball
<terlmann> only beef-based food I love is meatloaf :-)
<kwwii> lol, none of the food I mentioned had beef in it :p
<nothlit`alpha> lassegul: there is certainly not only digital artists here lol. i'd say most of the people in here have some sort of art background
<lassegul> nothlit`alpha: im sorry. maybe im mixing the words.
<nothlit> lassegul: ahh, ok, i get what you mean then
<nothlit> lassegul: what's your native language?
<lassegul> nothlit: norwegian
<lassegul> i thought that a digtal artist was an artist who does art digitally
<lassegul> nothlit: as well as analouge.
<lassegul> nothlit: or saying that you are a digital artist doesnt say that you cant also be an artist.
<nothlit> nah
<nothlit> what happened is that you said there are "only digital artists here"
<nothlit> indicating that only artists that at least primarily do digital art reside in the channel
<lassegul> nothlit: ok i get your point.
<lassegul> hi Misosaki
<Misosaki> Hey lassegul
<Misosaki> What's up?
<lassegul> nothlit was so bored that he had to correct my english. say something funny
<lassegul> :)
<Misosaki> lols
<nothlit> lassegul: lol, no sorry that wasn't my intention
<lassegul> nothlit: no worries. im just kidding.
<nothlit> oh ok
* nothlit is quite incapable of most sarcasm, and takes practically everything literally
<Misosaki> Can't do sarcasm? Lucky ... such optimism
<nothlit> of most sarcasm lol
<nothlit> i can do dry
<Misosaki> lol
<nothlit> hmm, so I guess in the time between now and the meeting we can try to spread the word more
<Misosaki> About the meeting or about getting ready for new designs?
<lassegul> about the meeting?
<lassegul> Misosaki: :)
<Misosaki> lassegul: :)
<nothlit> i'd say spreading word about the meeting accomplishes both
<nothlit> i'm going to talk to the marketing team and see if i can't get it in the newsletter
<Misosaki> Forum spammage? lols
<Misosaki> Or has that already been covered?
<lassegul> Misosaki: not as a thread i think.
<Misosaki> wb _MMA_
<_MMA_> Yo. :)
<Misosaki> Then as someone dressed in a paintbrush costume walking around?
<lassegul> Misosaki: no its quoted by 23meg in the "what do you think about the new wallpaper"-thread.
<lassegul> Misosaki: hehe. ill check it out.
<Misosaki> lassegul: Ah okay
<Misosaki> As good a place as any. The digg post might not be a good idea?
<lassegul> i dont we should do that with the meeting.
<Misosaki> (Too public?) Who should be attending the meeting though?
<Misosaki> Besides the artists and those who want to get involved in doing the artwork
<lassegul> Misosaki: anyone else?
<lassegul> Misosaki: i think we should have a grand meeting, because that will probably hinder discussion
<lassegul> *shouldnt
<nothlit> well a digg post, even considering the audience can't be too harmful, the sort that will leave scathing comments aren't likely to be the ones that take the time to clear their schedule for a meeting
<nothlit> and figure out irc etc
<nothlit> and people can't say we haven't tried then
<Misosaki> lassegul: Guess just about anyone who has a vested interest in the artwork -- usually Ubuntu users, but not always
<nothlit> its up to you guys though, i'll tell you the approaches i try
<lassegul> Misosaki: I dont think anyone will be satisfied with the meeting if it ends up in being a rant fest.
<lassegul> Misosaki: that doesnt mean i wouldnt have lots of the forum users there.
<Misosaki> nothlit: Up to you. Will try lending an extra mouse if you need a splash image to go with a post or something
<kwwii> I do not see the point of having too many people who are not involved in the process to attend, what could they contribute?
<Misosaki> lassegul: Yeah ... though if the meeting is long enough and we have some semblance of order if other people want to ask questions or suggest something, then it should be okay
<kwwii> the point is to discuss ideas for how to improve the processes, not disucuss gutsy or the current artwork
<Misosaki> kwwii: Maybe not much, but at least it's an opportunity for them to say something
<kwwii> and it is not going to be a time for people to discuss how they want the decision making process to be
<kwwii> Misosaki: no, that will do nothing
<lassegul> Misosaki: we should include lots of people elsewhere then the meetings. the goal of the meeting must be to get a message through and discuss some visions. we should do the active inclusion elsewhere.
<Misosaki> Ah
<kwwii> there is no point in discussing this stuff now
<kwwii> the point of the meeting is to discuss exactly the topics that I posted (and the additional one)
<Misosaki> kwwii: Okay. I trust you'll make it clear at the start of the meeting what it will be (and not be) about.
<kwwii> if too many people interupt they will just get kicked from the channel
<kwwii> Misosaki: the mail and wiki page with the topics should make that clear
<nothlit> kwwii: this is what i'm sending to the newletter https://people.fluxbuntu.org/~nothlit/communitytheme/hardy/newslettersubmission.txt
<Misosaki> kwwii: It should, but some people go off topic anyway because they figured they can talk out and be heard.
<nothlit> i'm sure some sort of order will be kept?
<kwwii> which newsletter?
<kwwii> Misosaki: they will be told that they are off-topic and if they do not stop they will be removed from the channel
<kwwii> nothlit: I do not like the wording of that text
<kwwii> why talk about the discontent
<Misosaki> kwwii: nods Okay.
<kwwii> I do not see the need for that text
<nothlit> kwwii: do you want to reword it? or just take out that sentence
<kwwii> post the topics if you want with a notice that we are having a meeting but I do not see the point of posting text like that anywhere
<kwwii> and it is not about choosing rules and guidelines for contributors but about talking about how best to communicate the rules and guidelines
<kwwii> I will clearly explain the decision making process
<kwwii> the rules will also be clearly stated, although in another meeting once we know how best to communicate them
<kwwii> and it is not ever going to be a discussion of deciding the artwork direction
<kwwii> I will clearly give a direction
<kwwii> for anything that is going to be default that is the way that things will work
<kwwii> people have already started to post artwork on the wiki for hardy which are, to put it simply, useless
<kwwii> they might be nice additions to some community package but they are not in line with what we want as default
<kwwii> put it this way: we know what we want we only need help getting there
<nothlit> kwwii: ok, i've updated the link
<nothlit> Thanks for clearing things up btw
<nothlit> or, for correcting my misinterpretation
<kwwii> nothlit: sounds much better now
<lassegul> "this meeting is not for voicing your discontent, and is about making things better." should maybe leaves too much open for interpretation?
<lassegul> *-should
<kwwii> yeah, people will probably start posting their "good ideas"
<lassegul> "This meeting is not for voicing your discontent, but coordinate the work toward the next release Hardy Heron"
<lassegul> or something like that
<kwwii> that sounds better
<nothlit> ok sent
<dmccall> October 2, right?
<kwwii> yepp
<dmccall> Random question: Who is in charge of the default settings for Compiz?
<kwwii> which newsletter, btw?
<nothlit> ubuntu-marketing-submissions@lists.ubuntu.com
<kwwii> dmccall: canonical...what exactly are you thinking?
<nothlit> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter/
<kwwii> dmccall: you could talk to Macslow
<nothlit> kwwii: is there another?
<dmccall> kwii: I'm thinking that Compiz's settings fall very closely in line with the rest of the theming, and so default configurations for Desktop Effects should be suggested by the same group that does the rest of the theme ;)
<dmccall> For example, the default settings, at the moment, for Compiz in Gutsy are rather different from Ubuntu's regular appearance, and not entirely consistent with themselves
<dmccall> (Fonts seem quite varied, for example)
<nothlit> does artwork have that much power lol
<kwwii> nothlit: another what?
<kwwii> dmccall: we are all on the same team although Macslow just joined the team
<kwwii> dmccall: you have brought up a very good piont
<kwwii> and yes, the artwork team, through myself could improve on this
<kwwii> dmccall: feel free to send me any suggestions you have and I can make sure that they get to the right place
<nothlit> kwwii: newsletter
<_MMA_> kwwii: Some ideas I had. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Artwork/OfficialHardyIncoming/Wallpaper
<kwwii> nothlit: to be honest, I have never seen that before
<nothlit> lol, i haven't either, just knew there was a newsletter somewhere
<kwwii> _MMA_: the marshall cabinet looks awesome
<lassegul> kwwii: it has actually been dugg to digg frontpage a couple of times.
<kwwii> add perhaps a couple of scraps of paper on top with some funky text or such
* kwwii loves his marshall ;-)
<_MMA_> :D
<kwwii> _MMA_: I am somewhat of a metal freak myself
<_MMA_> \m/
<kwwii> i played in bands for a long time...been thinking about starting up again
<kwwii> I never miss a motrhead concert :-)
<_MMA_> kwwii: I looked around Boston for something to hit with Jono while I was there but I couldnt really find anything.
<kwwii> lol, it would be soooo cool to go to a concert with Jono and others
<kwwii> but he digs death metal
<_MMA_> My favorite place in Worcester (45mins away) has mostly Hi-Hop all week. Im into some. Just not the commercial stuff.
<kwwii> getting older I have taken to listening to all kinds of music
<kwwii> my wife keeps looking at me funny when she comes in my office and i am listening to some old hank williams sr. or such
<_MMA_> I grew up on stuff from Motown on up.
<kwwii> old hank wrote some fscked up music
<_MMA_> :)
<_MMA_> Ive been to see Hank III. :)
<_MMA_> _He's_ crazy.
<kwwii> after living in missouri for so long I hated country but then I found that there is a totally other side to it
<kwwii> lol
<kwwii> actually I just bought a new microphone today
<_MMA_> Well country now, isnt country.
<_MMA_> Whatcha buy?
<kwwii> my son takes guitar lessons...at his recital they played korn
<_MMA_> lol
<lassegul> how old is he?
<kwwii> I have this mp3 of my son and others playing korn and it rocks
<_MMA_> Ibenez 7-string and all?
<kwwii> 9
<lassegul> 9 and he plays korn. lol
<lassegul> nice.
<kwwii> it was the guitar teachers idea
<kwwii> great teacher
<lassegul> school of rock maybe?
<kwwii> _MMA_: nope, but it is more like an orchestra of little kids with nylon strings accompanying an electric band
<_MMA_> Cute. :)
<kwwii> they learn classical guitar but they always go back to learning newer stuff to keep them interested
<_MMA_> Its been neat to see Korn evolve. I was a fan of the 1st 2 albums. Saw them in tons of dinky clubs 94-98.
<kwwii> they also played F.U.C.K from the bloodhound gang
<_MMA_> lol!!
<kwwii> something like that can only happen in germany
<_MMA_> Best guitarists I know can play various styles. Jazz/Blues is usually a good base.
<kwwii> yeah, I couldn't get into jazz when I was younger for some reason
<kwwii> I went to college on a music scholarship
<kwwii> I played piano mainly but also trumpet, baby tuba, bass and guitar
<lassegul> kwwii: and you went on to be a chef and then your interest for art led you to computers?
<_MMA_> Im a Art Blakey fan. I have some live stuff with him and Winton Marcellas.
<lassegul> kwwii: thats some wierd career.
<kwwii> lassegul: and I finshed with a degree in civil engineering
<kwwii> then I started cooking
<_MMA_> Wow. :)
<lassegul> kwwii: and you are how old?
<lassegul> (if I may ask?
<_MMA_> Ancient. In his 30's. ;)
<lassegul> a regular leonardo davinci then :)
<kwwii> met a german girl, fell in love, sold everything and moved to germany....opened several restaurants...got sick of that, started a company making tv commercials and music videos
<_MMA_> kwwii is a "Hoff" fan. :D
<kwwii> got a job at suse after my son was born to pay the bills
<kwwii> _MMA_: lol, anything but that
<_MMA_> :D
<lassegul> i need sleep. You guys have fun and play safe. good night.
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-09-28
<kwwii> see you lassegul
<swj> hello...hmm not much going in here I suppose
<firefoxman1> i can't figure out how to sign on to irc
<firefoxman1> did that work?
<_MMA_> swj: Naa... Pretty quiet.
<nothlit> well you're on irc now
<nothlit> are you trying to register and identify to nickserv?
<firefoxman1> yes
<firefoxman1> i guess you just use the register command?
<swj> one question about the meeting on oct 2.  All the people in the US most likely will be at work during that times scheduled.
<firefoxman1> i've never used irc before
<swj> ---         /msg NickServ HELP REGISTER
<swj> tells you what you need to do
<firefoxman1> alright
<firefoxman1> thanks
<swj> welcome!
<swj> then when you log back you /msg NickServ   ---- /msg NickServ IDENTIFY <password>
<swj> or set your client to auto log you in
<firefoxman1> will pidgin do that?
<swj> I really don't use it that much so I dont know..I use xchat for irc
<swj> bye
<nothlit> piding shouold have some sort of capability like that
<nothlit> if it doesn't
<nothlit> there are plenty of plugins
<nothlit> one of them that will
<firefoxman1> cool, i think i got it
<firefoxman1> so is this the right place to contribute my Ubuntu artwork i have made?
<_MMA_> Pidgin will autolog you on to different IRC networks as well as channels.
<nothlit> in general
<_MMA_> (or has that ability)
<nothlit> or for a hardy theme? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Hardy
<firefoxman1> yea, i guess i missed the deadline to contribute to gutsy
<_MMA_> firefoxman1: There's also Ubuntu Studio if you're so inclined. ;) https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Artwork/OfficialHardyIncoming
<firefoxman1> alright
<terlmann> I'm here , and so is my shadow clone :-)
<terlmann> same old same old
<terlmann> hey _MMA_
<terlmann> Seveas
<terlmann> Your flooding :-)
<terlmann> The BETA IS OUT!!!
<lassegul> kwwii: im trying to make a background for a punkish wallpaper (maybe for ubuntustudio, but mostly for self improvement) What can i do to keep the textures but reduce the visual busyness? http://lassegs.ath.cx/tieatie3.png  if you dont mind taking a look.
<nothlit>   /q lassegul bring things closer together in value, or rearrange the shapes, since they are diagonals
<lassegul> nothlit: so that the colours are more similar? what do you mean rearrange?
<nothlit> lol rearrange is a way of saying choose different shapes in a way that seems like more of a gentle change
<lassegul> nothlit: ok so diagonal makes it look busy?
<lassegul> *diagonals
<nothlit> its in opposition to the verticle lines you have
<nothlit> but if you want a more punkish look i would suggest throwing a bit of disorder into your image
<nothlit> verticals*
<lassegul> nothlit: it will get disorder, but this is the background.
<nothlit> ahh ok
<lassegul> nothlit: the foreground will be noisy. because punk has lately become a more upper class style here in norway, so it should reflect that, teenage uproar in fancy home :)
<nothlit> LOL
<nothlit> like the emo movement i suppose
<lassegul> thats right. We dont have enough people in norway to divide between those two :)
<lassegul> with all the polar bears in the streets you know.
<artnay> ha, I thought we're the ones with polar bears *g*
<lassegul> artnay: where do you live?
<artnay> lassegul: helsinki, fi
<artnay> lassegul: nevermind the icelanders ;-)
<lassegul> hehe
<lassegul> artnay: you dont actually have polar bears do you?
<artnay> lassegul: no, that's just a myth
<lassegul> artnay: same here. though we actualle have an island named Svalbard with polar bears. but that is like right next to the north pole.
<lapo> hi
<lassegul> hi lapo
<terlmann> I am here
<terlmann> Teh terlmann is up
<terlmann> heya lapo
<terlmann> morning lassegul ; artnay ; nothlit ; kwwii ,bersace . It is a fine morning here and the time is 8:30. The sun is up and the moon is still visible to the west of here. Fine dew down too :-)
<_MMA_> "terlmann" - The #ubuntu-artwork puppy.
<terlmann> _MMA_ the #ubuntu-artwork silent critic and all-knowing sysadmin
<terlmann> You fail.
<_MMA_> lol.
* terlmann checks his emails...
<terlmann> Wow! the spammers learned proper english ! I can read their letters ! looks like OLPC worked !!
<terlmann> Wait
<terlmann> Only the punctuation is correct
<terlmann> Their english still sucks
<_MMA_> Puppies from the second they wake demand attention. I see a parallel with the way you post. Just an observation. :) Take it how you want.
<terlmann> _MMA_ I am not striving for attention. But , I am caring enough about my fiendish fellow artists on here to share a wee bit of my day.
<terlmann> you read shashdot ?
<terlmann> interesting cockroach theory there :-)
<_MMA_> If I hadn't have posted you would have had 8 post where your basically talking to yourself. And you called out Seveas for flooding? :)
<terlmann> I was joking :-P
<_MMA_> ;)
<bersace> _MMA_: lol !
<bersace> :D
<terlmann> hey MMA : you use OpenDNS ?
<_MMA_> No sir.
<terlmann> google it
<terlmann> USE IT
<_MMA_> And thats what I get for talking...
<nothlit> OpenDNS messes with my samba shares personally
* _MMA_ goes to feed his kids.
<nothlit> but it is definitely cool
<terlmann> Is anyone on here possessed with a desire to eliminate ads ? just google " Mike's host list" and add the contents to /etc/hosts with a text editor
<terlmann> nothlit : It can also block offensive domains
<terlmann> have you checked your settings recently ?
<nothlit> i have privoxy set up fine
<terlmann> (your settings on opendns.com)
<nothlit> but i wouldn't pollute my hosts list anyways, browser lists work great
<terlmann> I use the host list
<terlmann> all entries in it are of the form " 127.0.0.1 blabla.bla
<terlmann> so all it does is echo certain domains to localhost
<terlmann> and so they dont load
<nothlit> i don't have an account with opendns
<nothlit> i just used their servers, tried both through the dhcp and set directly
<terlmann> get one :-)
<terlmann> its free
<nothlit> interfered with the entire network
<terlmann> well all you need is to set two values on a router in order to use it
<lassegul> terlmann: you arent tired in the morning, are you?
<terlmann> you can have it do many things through the online interface'
<nothlit> i have no need for it lol
<terlmann> NO
<terlmann> why do you ask >
<lassegul> terlmann: I leave the computer for 4 minuits, and now theres a two pages long backlog with your name all over it. ;)
<terlmann> hehehe
<terlmann> hey lasse : did you know Lotus Symphony is out ?
<lassegul> terlmann: yeah ive seen it
<terlmann> is it any good compared with OO ?
<terlmann> wow!
* terlmann checks out screenshots
<lassegul> terlmann: Its a bit heavy for my taste, but i almost never use programs like that anyway.
<terlmann> k
<terlmann> yea
<terlmann> abiword FTW
* lassegul likes his tomboy :P
<terlmann> IMHO
<terlmann> I am waiting for SymphonyOS to release a new version and be ported to apt :-)
<terlmann> Still
<terlmann> how long do you think it will be before Ubuntu ships with Symphony instead of OO ?
<terlmann> :-D
<lassegul> I like OO better now, but i think it is healthy for OO to have competition other than MSOffice.
<lapo> kwwii: please change about icon in human to something different then 'i'
<lapo> kwwii: or just kill it
<bersace> or just migrate to Tangerine
<bersace>  /o\
<lapo> eheh
<bersace> kwwii: i forgot to congratulate you for the new background
<bersace> very nice
<lapo> indeed
<bersace> back in the day of breezy chocolate background :)
<bersace> seems a bit more Tangoish
<bersace> make also me remember fyre
<lapo> ssshhh don't tell that :-)
<terlmann> who is fyre ?
<terlmann> :D
<kwwii> lapo: why? "i" is the international symbol for information, or?
<lapo> kwwii: just for that it's used in other places for informations not for "credits" check out the install disk for example
<lapo> click on the network manager icon
<lapo> kwwii: we use a star for "about" and gtk stock do he same, let's try to having the same metaphors at least
<kwwii> lapo: right, now I understand
<kwwii> probably best to just remove it then
<lapo> kwwii: probably best to remove them all then :-)
<kwwii> I think that we will be working on a new icon set fof hardy
<lapo> nice (in case it will follows tango guidelines)
<lapo> (otherwise more money waste :-)
<bersace> kwwii: good !
<bersace> so is sabdfl fed up of Human ?
<kwwii> I think we are going to use oxygen ;-)
<_MMA_> \o/
<pochu> troy_s: could you please check bug 109434 when you have some time? thanks!
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 109434 in wesnoth "Installing a server for a game automatically auto-inits and runs every boot." [Undecided,Incomplete]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/109434
<_MMA_> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=3442212
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-09-29
<dmccall> That plan for Ubuntu Studio's art sounds awesome :)
<_MMA_> We hope so. Some people dont like concepts.
<woodwizzle> Hi
<terl|away> gnight all
<nothlit> kwwii: this guy has feisty installed on two machines http://portfolio.cgsociety.org/recent/cgt_button_redirect.php?userid=165135
<terlmann> Today is September the Twenty-Ninth. It is a Saturday.  The sun shines brightly over a new day. I feel great. I have a gig of ram now as apposed to the 256MB of before , and my system is running SLICK.
* terlmann checks the news and initializes core matrix modules...
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-09-30
<troy_s> wtf are you doing in here luisbg
<_MMA_> :)
<troy_s> lol
<troy_s> two of you
<luisbg> troy_s, shut up
<luisbg> lol
<_MMA_> troy_s: Yeah. You're late. We've been in here for days now.
<troy_s> skulking freaks.
<luisbg> freaky stalkers
<DanaG> Hmm, I'm glad I was able to find a way  to get back the old font rendering -- the new lcd filter gives me eyestrain.
<DanaG> But somehow, it's still not quite the same as Feisty.
<kwwii> moin
<kwwii> _MMA_: played with a wallpaper idea for -studio
<kwwii> guess it is 4am for you - be amazed if you are up
<nothlit`alpha> morning
<nothlit`alpha>  kwwii: this guy has feisty installed on two machines http://portfolio.cgsociety.org/recent/cgt_button_redirect.php?userid=165135
<kwwii> cool, he does some neat work on 3d games
<nothlit> i can look up more cgsociety ubuntu-using artists to 'draft'
<kwwii> but I bet he does not do any modeling on linux
<nothlit> i've been looking up mostly the 2d artists anyways
<nothlit> but things like maya run on linux
<kwwii> true
* kwwii is off for family day at my wife's company
<kwwii> s/my/his
<nothlit`alpha> wait, i sent you a pm
<nothlit`alpha> just want to know whats going on
<kwwii> if you do it with a nick that is not registered it won't work
<nothlit> doh
<nothlit> thanks for the tip
<lassegul> good morning
<nothlit> good evening lol :D
<lassegul> where are you located?
<nothlit> hong kong
<lassegul> ok. hows it going with the art.ubuntu.com project?
<nothlit> nothing since i've talked to matthew, mostly taken as far as i can until the meeting
<nothlit> lassegul: look at the scrollback, been looking for ubuntu users @ cgsociety, will probably do a search through deviantart/gnome-look later
<lassegul> nothlit: whats your take on deviantart? Will you just find people who you think makes fitting art, or will you search for ubuntu users or what?
<nothlit> lassegul: looking for those who already create ubuntu art
<lassegul> nothlit: ok.
<nothlit> not just a lot of artists in the ubuntu community that arne't being tapped
<nothlit> by those creating ubuntu art
<nothlit> but*
<lassegul> yeah
<_MMA_> kwwii: Hi. I'm up now. :)
<_MMA_> kwwii: You didnt post the wall to the wiki? Or you wanted me to peak at it 1st? :)
<terlmann> today is Sunday september 30th. It appears to be a Missouri weather day with cool winds blowing steadily with a scent of the far-off hills.
<dmccall> Hm... the GNOME Desktop Devel mailing list has a discussion about timelapsed backgrounds probably coming in 2.22. Could be worth thinking about for Hardy ;)
<dmccall> Particularly cool sounding is that backgrounds can be set for times of day, so there could be a morning / day / night version of a wallpaper
<dmccall> Dawn of Ubuntu, Night of Ubuntu and Ubuntu Spring -- search gnome-look -- are three wallpapers that could, for example, be quite effective with that
<Viper550> Hey everyone, long time no pay attention
<lassegul> hi sketec you got in!
<TiaGo|SouZa> does anybody here know if the final artwork is already in the gutsy beta, or will it be added in the final release?
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-09-22
<mickstephenson1> I'm sorry, I didn't want to commit this to the list, but "KyÅ«dÅ is the Japanese art of archery" will annoy many people, including myself.
<mickstephenson1> Archery in itself is the English word for the art of archery
<PRGUY85> hey what's this about kyu-do
<Serway> hey guys, does anyone know how to remove the icon next to the applications places systems menu?????????? just remove it, not replace it...........disabling it would be nice :) thanks
<Serway> cookie to whomever solves this http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=926522
<slow_> its start-here.png
<slow_> depending on your icon theme and panel size
<slow_> just search for /usr/share/icons/(theme name)/(panel size)/places/start-here.png
<JoeyReds> Cool, I'm posting this from my iPhone...
<JoeyReds> Now I can irc from work!
<JoeyReds> They block 3g buy edge still gets through.
<JoeyReds> *but
<JoeyReds> *sigh* no-one cares....
<JoeyReds> Anyone alive?
<kwwii> sooooo...good morning everyone
<carciofo> yeah, have a good morning
<JoeyReds_> Everyone still dead here?
<thorwil> hello!
<thorwil> hi _MMA_
 * _MMA_ waves
<_MMA_> I'm around. Just trying to wake up and take care of some "A.M." things.
<thorwil> not in a hurry for anything :)
<_MMA_> thorwil: Sure. I did push the fixes to the template SVG for Breathe.
<_MMA_> The integer issue.
<thorwil> _MMA_: i'll look into bg colors in the coming hours
<thorwil> interesting to see what happened to the special characters in Kyudo
<_MMA_> Ok. Please do. I want to put them into the template and 6 icons we're gonna focus on to start ASAP.
<thorwil> they are intact in Giuseppe's reply, but broken to u- and o- on yours
<_MMA_> Yeah. I saw that. Weird.
<thorwil> the fun thing s that i copied it from wikipedia and never entered them manually, don't even know how ;)
<thorwil> _MMA_: replied to you mail. forgot about that question as i concentrated on cheering people up. also no mention about the relation to Breathe, yet
<thorwil> kyudo main page had 84 views yesterday and 66 today. around 20 views for both days on sub pages
<_MMA_> Sure, sure. I don't think it needs specific mention of it though.
<_MMA_> If anything, we mention it on the Breathe page as it's design guidelines.
<thorwil> ok
<_MMA_> "Breathe falls under our KyÅ«dÅ community design guidelines." or something.
<thorwil> kwwii: the locks on you palette mark the CoC colors?
<thorwil> of course they do
<kwwii> thorwil: right
<_MMA_> kwwii: Are you on Planet?
<kwwii> I keep hoping to find some time to help with the icons
<kwwii> _MMA_: I think so, but I never blog :p
<_MMA_> How about you post about KyÅ«dÅ?
<kwwii> very seldom
<kwwii> yeah, I could do that
<_MMA_> Give you something to talk about. :)
<_MMA_> cool
<kwwii> hehe, right
<thorwil> i'm only on graphics-planet :/
<_MMA_> kwwii: I added a generic mime icon. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/BreatheIconSet/Icons. It's real obvious though how heavy the shadow is. Even between those icons, the shadows are inconsistent.
<kwwii> _MMA_: one suggestion, the shadows and stuff will have to be universal but at first try different things out...it is easy to change that later
<thorwil> so there we have laying-on-desk-viewed-from-above, face on and front/top from slightly above
<kwwii> and personally, I think that the page flap thingy is out-of-date and only makes the small icons harder to understand
<thorwil> yes, i guess a little chaos on the start is hard to avoid and actually healthy
<_MMA_> kwwii: Sure. I just wanted to note that. Also, it's weird it looks like 2 different cd icons are used.
<kwwii> yeah, that is the difference between the angle of view
<kwwii> crappy, if you ask me
<thorwil> the disc in drive-optical appears to be out-of-perspective
<kwwii> thorwil: yes, I agree
<kwwii> it looks like it was just scaled and not scaled to the perspective
<_MMA_> kwwii: The *only* reason I wanna stay with the flap is because re-creating all the mimes will be a bitch. Though, I guess it wouldn't be too bad to re-use everything but the base file image.
<thorwil> _MMA_: don't fear the bitch :)
<_MMA_> :P
<kwwii> _MMA_: actually, once a new mimetype template is made it would not be too hard to exchange them all
<kwwii> something for someone who is learning how to do icon art, I think
<thorwil> if only we could graphic design students to do this :)
<_MMA_> kwwii: Yeah. That was my latter thought.
 * kwwii gets lunch, bbiab
<thorwil> i wonder to how low a number i should get those bg colors
 * _MMA_ goes to make breakfast for the kids.
 * thorwil goes to feel lonely
<_MMA_> thorwil: Im still unsure how to present them in the template.
<thorwil> _MMA_: we want as fast as possible switching between them. should cover a large area, if not full area
<thorwil> using layers would be easy, but not terrible fast
<thorwil> should ask inkscape people
<_MMA_> kwwii: Got any alt base mime icon ideas?
<rsc-> hey guys.
<_MMA_> hi
<rsc-> how do you get a @ubuntu/member/mma hostname?
<rsc-> :b
<Ziroday> kwwii: any decision on the deviantart thing?
<_MMA_> Demonstrate a continued contribution to Ubuntu. Don't just do it for the fashion though. As many people do.
<_MMA_> rsc-: ^^^
<rsc-> well, is there a way for me to hide my IP in the mean time?
<_MMA_> Ziroday: Can you tell me what the "Deviantart thing" was? As there a couple of ideas floating around.
<_MMA_> rsc-: I'm sure there is but I have no clue.
<Ziroday> _MMA_: certaintly, it was trying to get deviantart artists interested into making a wallpaper via a wallpaper compeition
<Ziroday> rsc-: join #freenode and request one there
<Ziroday> _MMA_: however deviantart is refusing to even consider the idea unless there is some type of official sponsership
<Ziroday> _MMA_: in what capacity I am not sure
<Ziroday> _MMA_: lemme find the original spec for you
<Ziroday> _MMA_: here is the general idea https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/deviantart-theme-competition
<Ziroday> _MMA_: so its kwwii's choice regarding what happens next. I am merely the humble messenger :)
<_MMA_> Ziroday: Than IMO DeviantArt is crap. The "official" art is up to Canonical. Why wouldn't DeviantArt be fine with a community lead effort?
<Ziroday> _MMA_: I had very much the same opinion they weren't the er...
<Ziroday> lets say the most welcoming of people
<Ziroday> anyway haven't heard back from kwwii in a while and I know he is busy so I thought I would try to corner him on irc :D
<_MMA_> Sure. I've been in this game for a while and have watched their growth. A bit elitist if you ask me.
<Ziroday> _MMA_: however they do have some _very_ good artists
<Ziroday> but they are still to the heart a company
<Ziroday> through and through
<aantn> Ziroday: can't you try to contact individual deviantart artists?
<Ziroday> aantn: I was going to discuss this all with kwwii
<_MMA_> In any case, if Canonical doesn't like the winner of the DeviantArt contest than it won't go in. Sure to cheese people off.
<Ziroday> aantn: also that might anger the DA community, us picking the "best" people
<aantn> _MMA_: it's extremely unlikely that not a single decent piece of artwork will result
<aantn> Ziroday: it's not the best
<aantn> Ziroday: invite everyone to join, but begin by contacting the people you think are the best
<Ziroday> aantn: thats not a bad idea
<aantn> Ziroday: in other words, have an open contest by working around the company
<Ziroday> _MMA_: yes another issue, if canonical does sponser the DA competition whatever stuff they make will HAVE to be the default
<aantn> there wont be an official category on the website, but asides from that it'll be the same
<aantn> _MMA_: not necessarily
<Ziroday> aantn: I am not sure I have quite that standing in DA
<aantn> it should be installed by default, though
<aantn> Ziroday: almost the same then
<_MMA_> There's no guarantee.
<aantn> use the social networking tools to drive it forward
<Ziroday> aantn: I understand
<_MMA_> It's Canonical's discretion.
<Ziroday> however kwwii final decision
<_MMA_> Ziroday: Not really. It's Marks.
<aantn> what's going to be the default theme in Ibex?
<Ziroday> _MMA_: sorry, kwwii -> marl
<Ziroday> aantn: who knows
<_MMA_> What's there now?
<aantn> Ziroday: I heard a rumor that Canonical had hired someone to work on one? Is that at all true?
<_MMA_> No. It's just an art director.
<Ziroday> aantn: don't ask me :)
<_MMA_> Someone to try to coordinate the overall branding, look & feel of everything.
<aantn> _MMA_: ok, nice
<_MMA_> And that's a major reason why a DA effort might not happen. It could simply not fit that direction.
<_MMA_> Whatever it ends up being.
 * Ziroday nods along with _MMA_
<aantn> _MMA_: still, there's a good chance that something good will come out of it
<aantn> worst case scenario is that you include one theme that you think doesn't fit the feel (but still has enough popular support to have one the contest)
<_MMA_> aantn: Well it depends on too many "ifs" for me atm.
<Ziroday> however I still think the idea is a good one, reach CC artists who may not have been considering making something for ubuntu but could be very capable and create an easy process for them to come in
<aantn> _MMA_: only one "if", really
<_MMA_> No. About 3.
<Ziroday> in this case in the form of a wallpaper competition, possibly something simialr to the kde4 one
<aantn> Ziroday: yeah
<_MMA_> hahah
<rsc-> re: default Ibex theme, it'd probably be Human again. the UI freeze already happened, and the latest betas still feature Human.
<Ziroday> aantn: also space on the release cd is extremely tight
<aantn> rsc-_: In case I haven't told you, Dust is awesome :)
<_MMA_> Yet another vague swirly thing? :) I'd rather not.
<rsc-> aantn, haha thanks :)
<aantn> _MMA_: ha
<Ziroday> _MMA_: could be worse, at least we don't have a dead ibex
<aantn> Ziroday: :-D
<_MMA_> aantn: So *if* the other "ifs" go through, you're gonna manage the whole DA thing right?
<aantn> _MMA_: me?
<rsc-> aantn, you hate the scrollbars too, yes? ;)
<_MMA_> aantn: Sure. Why not?
<Ziroday> aantn: I will work with ya
<aantn> _MMA_: I wouldn't really classify myself as an artist... but if you need someone then I'd love to do it
<Ziroday> aantn: as far as I can tell *if* it goes through it will be a fairly simple job. Set up a place to submit work somewhere have good criteria (more or less done already) and publicize it to death
<Ziroday> and we can host it similar to the current CC showcase competition is being done
<_MMA_> As far as the blueprint goes simply "* CC licensed" will not work. It must be specific ones recognized by Debian as ok. CC-BY-SA 3 is used alot lately.
<aantn> _MMA_: to be honest, I'd love to consider myself an artist, but at the moment I'm working on one or two other projects that are stealing away pure artistic time
<aantn> _MMA_: coding is art, anyway :)
<aantn> Ziroday: if it gets approval, then yes, I'd do that
<Ziroday> however this all goes in a large circle -> back to kwwii
<Ziroday> who we wait on :)
<aantn> Ziroday: yeah
<aantn> out of curiosity, how many people here (dis)like *-look.org
<_MMA_> Reading further through the blueprint, there are several rules/ideas that only make a recipe for genericness.
<Ziroday> _MMA_: what would you change?
<_MMA_> Many of the ideas depend on audience.
<_MMA_> "*Not too busy to distract from the desktop's contents"
<Ziroday> the audience has to be everyone :) as always
<_MMA_> What's busy for one is not another.
<_MMA_> Ziroday: There's no such thing.
<Ziroday> _MMA_: well if you want to help reword it please do
<aantn> _MMA_: you can still get close
<Ziroday> you can add to the whiteboard
<aantn> _MMA_: that's not specific to the DA contest... we already face that issue
<_MMA_> Ziroday: ATM, I manage Ubuntu Studio, am taking over the Ubuntu community art team, working, and raising a family. You can take my comments for what they're worth.
<aantn> _MMA_: :)
<_MMA_> aantn: Ziroday's blueprint is specific to the contest.
<Ziroday> _MMA_: didn't mean it to be mean in any way
<Ziroday> also thats not my blueprint
<aantn> _MMA_: I know... my point was that it's not really any more limiting than the current process
<Ziroday> I am merely picking up the ball and trying to get it moving
<aantn> one other thing, does anyone know exactly what Mark meant about the user interface improvements in Jaunty?
<_MMA_> Ziroday: I didn't take it personally. ;) And you linked to the blueprint so I just used your name because it was the one I currently associate with the link.
<Ziroday> no worries
<_MMA_> aantn: Ask him. sabdfl on freenode.
<_MMA_> He's on now.
<Ziroday> aantn: if you do find out please let us know
<aantn> _MMA_: sabdfl == Mark Shuttleworth?
<_MMA_> Yes
<Ziroday> aantn: yes Self Appointed Benevolent Dictator For Life
<aantn> Ziroday: ah, right :)
<aantn> _MMA_: thanks... I guess I should just pm him?
<_MMA_> Up to you.
<aantn> he's away
<Ziroday> kwwii: ping me when you're awake please
<kwwii> Ziroday: ping
<thorwil> _MMA_: down to 4 bg colors plus white. should i even bother to put that up, or just mail you?
<_MMA_> Mail
<thorwil> done
<_MMA_> Thanx
<thorwil> _MMA_: ok if i ask on inkscape list if they have an idea for fast bg swicthing?
<_MMA_> thorwil: I'm chatting with tedg (Inkscape/Canonical guy) now about the script and more changes to the template.
<thorwil> ah, cool :)
<_MMA_> Can't we just turn on/off a layer?
<thorwil> _MMA_: that can take switching 2 layers for one change
<_MMA_> Depends on how you set it up. Ill look at your file.
<thorwil> now. if it is withink inkscape's capabilities, switching bg color of the document tied to shortcuts and/or extra buttons would rock
<_MMA_> kwwii thorwil: Around?
<rsc-> hey guys.
<aantn> hey rsc-
<rsc-> so anyway, do you guys know on what the state is for the artwork for intrepid?
<rsc-> will the community contributions be included? how? whats the default theme now? wallpaper? what about breathe? etc
<_MMA_> rsc-: kwwii is best to chime in.
<rsc-> :)
<rsc-> yes, but there hasn't been a word from him lately about this, yeah?
<_MMA_> rsc-: Maybe on the ML.
<aantn> rsc-: I don't believe breathe will be going in intrepid... isn't it past the freeze?
<thorwil> _MMA_: plop
<thorwil> aantn: no need for believe, breathe is just about to start and intrepid is pretty much at the doors
<aantn> thorwil: ok, thanks
<rsc--> aha.
<aantn> unfortunately :(
<_MMA_> aantn: Oh no. Breathe is not even close to release. We will see some semblance of a release for Jaunty if people really step up. Even then, there's nothing that says it will be default.
<aantn> _MMA_: yeah, I know
<aantn> _MMA_: I've been doing my best to follow it on the mailing list and wiki
<aantn> _MMA_: the folder overlays are neat
<thorwil> aantn: why are you following? how about running forward to pull it? ;)
<_MMA_> There will be the official start of work on it very soon. Still trying to get the technicals sorted.
<aantn> thorwil: I'd like to
<thorwil> aantn: what's keeping you back?
<aantn> thorwil: I'm a bit busy with Universal Applets, but I'm going to look into the floder-overlay concept
<aantn> s/floder/folder
<thorwil> aantn: cool. what do you mean with folder-overlay, though? :)
<aantn> thorwil: I'm going to be at the GNOME User Experience hackfest, so I'll try to bring it up there
<aantn> thorwil: overlaying a preview of the folder's contents on the folder
<thorwil> aha!
<aantn> e.g. http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y111/raraken/example_mk2.png
<aantn> on that note, I think I like the glossless icons better
<thorwil> aantn: i have been thinking about doing away with folder graphics, to just turn them into a rectangle with just a little bling. to then place a little icon view unto them
<JoeyReds__> Very nice icons
<aantn> thorwil: what do you mean?
<aantn> thorwil: and the icons are a bit better in this http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y111/raraken/example_mk2.png than this, I think
<aantn> thorwil: sorry, than this http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y111/raraken/example_mk3.png
<thorwil> aantn: i mean doing away with graphically expressing the folder metaphor. to instead concentarte to do the best job of giving more info about the contents
<JoeyReds__> Yeah,  I think the paper folder image has become a little overused. Something more abstract would be nice.
<aantn> in example_mk2.png its a bit brighter
<aantn> thorwil: ah, yeah
<aantn> JoeyReds__: that's true, but it's also what people expect
<aantn> there's often a price to pay for breaking expectations
<thorwil> aantn: if you see a chance of getting things to move in that way, i can create a brief mockup
<aantn> thorwil: cool
<JoeyReds__> True, but in this instance I think you can change expectations.
<aantn> JoeyReds__: I would think so
<_MMA_> I'm also pretty confidant that if we want to land in Ubuntu the folder will have to stay.
<JoeyReds__> Yeah, true.
<_MMA_> I'm not for bowing to every request. Just finding common ground. Ultimatly,
<thorwil> sure. some innovation has to happen outside ;)
<_MMA_> gah
<_MMA_> Ultimately, if there's too much "Change this", it ain't gonna happen. Our vision will win out overall.
<thorwil> aantn: say, do you have a blog or something?
<aantn> thorwil: http://theesylum.com
<thorwil> _MMA_: template appears to be alright. but you should not add all those colors
<thorwil> _MMA_: i did hide the additional palettes in my file, or?
<aantn> I need to run out for an hour or so, but I'm planning on writing a post that mentions the overlays when I get back
<_MMA_> thorwil: I'll ax whatever you want.
<_MMA_> *axe
<thorwil> _MMA_: i think that there should only be the bg colors from my central set of 4 + white
<thorwil> _MMA_: as it just to much work and confusing to have that many bg colors
<_MMA_> I think those +the 3 Ubuntu colors.
<thorwil> _MMA_: think about it. will we place icons on the logo? on big spots of pretty intense red, orange and yellow?
<_MMA_> Just for reference.
<thorwil> _MMA_: add colored rectangles outside the page, then
<thorwil> it has to be clear that those 3 are foreground colors
<thorwil> gmail must make it really hard to use mailing lists :}
<_MMA_> Not really. You just have to know how to use it with them is all.
<kwwii> re
<thorwil> _MMA_: should have read the template instructions earlier, but i'm suffering from diverted attention right now :)
<_MMA_> kwwii: Read back. A couple of questions for you.
<thorwil> _MMA_: what's with the text objects?
<_MMA_> thorwil: The instructions?
<thorwil> _MMA_: "How does this work?" in the template
<_MMA_> It was there from jimmak's file and I think it useful for new people.
<kwwii> rsc--: intrepid artwork is still unfinished, expect a wallpaper and some other changes this week
<thorwil> _MMA_: i think it is confusing and it might be pushing the filesize up quite a bit
<thorwil> _MMA_: so to use these, on should add a text object with the icon name?
<kwwii> rsc--: as to whether any community artwork will make it into the release as default artwork, at this time I doubt it but that might change if someone makes something amazing
<thorwil> _MMA_: the plates have their size in the Label fields, excpet for the big one: Label: "this is unneeded even"
<_MMA_> thorwil: Removing the text makes a 3k difference.
<_MMA_> thorwil: I'm still working on it. And remember,
<_MMA_> This will be a complex thing to start.
<_MMA_> I won't dumb it down too far.
<thorwil> _MMA_: do a Edit: Vacuum defs, save and look at the file size
<thorwil> inkscape keeps gardient definitions around unless you do a vaccum
<_MMA_> ahh...
<_MMA_> killer.
<kwwii> you always want to do a vacuum defs
<kwwii> and the key to doing it is to save the file after editing it, then reopen it and do the vacuum defs
<_MMA_> kwwii: Could account for why my Severed Fifth file is huge.
<kwwii> otherwise you will not get them all
<kwwii> _MMA_: that is what I meant about all the extra header info
<thorwil> never noticed the need for reopening
<_MMA_> Gah. No dice. Was pretty clean. :P
<thorwil> _MMA_: what? it went from 537 to 27.8 KB
<_MMA_> thorwil: Different file I was talking to Ken about.
<thorwil> _MMA_: i would think the icon size part for the filename comes from the labels. if the icon name is taken from a text object, it should already be in the file
<thorwil> ah, ok
<_MMA_> And Im down to 18. :)
<thorwil> no beer for you, then!
 * thorwil shakes low flying associations off
<_MMA_> The path and filename come from the layer name. After I get the template sorted, I put an Icon in to show. Let's stick to the palette subject for now. 1 thing at a time.
<thorwil> ok
<_MMA_> thorwil: Re-download template.
<thorwil> _MMA_: take care to not ship with the palette layer set to invisible
<kwwii> why do you need a palette layer?
<kwwii> can't one just make a gimp palette and use it like that?
<_MMA_> thorwil: Why?
<thorwil> _MMA_: Ubuntu Colors -> Logo Colors, please. if you move them a tad to the left i'll be happy :)
<kwwii> or are you trying to reference the palette objects so that you can change the colors with a script or something?
<thorwil> _MMA_: Ubuntu colors could mean the entire palette in use
<thorwil> kwwii: having 4 layers there is enough reason to group them :)
<_MMA_> thorwil: No. I mean why make them visible? One should turn them on/off as needed.
<kwwii> I do not understand why you need to palette layer at all really
<thorwil> _MMA_: the palette layer itself was turned off. this way, you can click all you want on the other, no colors show up. so this would be a help-desk issue ;)
<_MMA_> kwwii: thorwil thought it would be good to A/B the icons against different colors we care about.
<kwwii> _MMA_: ahhh, ok...although it seems like something like that would be better done on a webpage somehow
<kwwii> but I won't get bitchy
<kwwii> tomorrow is beta freeze
<_MMA_> We can do both/
<_MMA_> .
<kwwii> so I guess I gotta have a wallpaper ready by then
<thorwil> kwwii: webpage doesn't help you when you are editing icons
<thorwil> kwwii: is there anything that could be it almost, but not quite yet?
<_MMA_> thorwil: Redownload. I will not ship the top-layer invisible but below will be.
<kwwii> thorwil: yeah, I am working on a new version of wallpaper (the one with the dots)
<_MMA_> kwwii: ATM, I just need thoughts on the template. Maybe later, we can do something like jimmaks website.
<kwwii> thorwil: yeah, for editing I guess it is a good idea, but I would not use the logo colors to base things on as the icons are never shown near those colors
<thorwil> kwwii: that's along the lines of what i told _MMA_ :)
<_MMA_> No. The my idea to have them there is for color-cues for use *in* the icons.
<_MMA_> ie: Im working on an icon and wonder what the Ubuntu Orange is?
<thorwil> kwwii: but the icons would do well to harmonize with the logo. so the trio from the CoC is there as reference
<_MMA_> I just need to get the template solidified before I update the other SVGs.
<_MMA_> Then, I can test Teds new script.
<kwwii> well the colors of the logo are not shown anywhere on the desktop...I would rather suggest to find the colors nearest them which are used on the desktop and worry about that, but I won't bitch
<_MMA_> kwwii: Then we can drop the use of Orange altogether in Human right?
<thorwil> hooray!
 * thorwil -> dinner
<kwwii> _MMA_: in that form definitely...we don't come close to that color in the folders or such
<kwwii> it is a much warmer, less saturated orange
<kwwii> same with the yellow
<_MMA_> Ok. Than I think we should add those colors to the template. Ones to be used in the actual icons.
<_MMA_> Link to those offhand?
<kwwii> nope, but they are easy to get
<kwwii> I gotta run to the store to get something for dinner before they close
<_MMA_> Ok. But I need ya when ya get back.
<JoeyReds__> Pickup a forty for me homes!
<kwwii> no worries, I will be up late tonight making a wallpaper
<rsc--> where can I get help on setting up a PPA for a gtk theme?
<_MMA_> #launchpad
<kwwii> we should put some info or a good link to setting up a ppa
<kwwii> it is really not that hard
<thorwil> plop
<_MMA_> Ok. So we gotta decide on a kinda palette. Colors we'd like to see used in the icons where wanted. Like the Orange on the folders.
<_MMA_> I have no clue here and will take cues from others.
<thorwil> _MMA_: i think we should let people play a bit, solely based on the bg colors
<thorwil> _MMA_: it will lessen the danger to copy what is there already
<_MMA_> Sure, but I feel there are also color cues we should hit. Or we risk doing alot and not feeling like Human.
<rsc--> kwwii: i've been trying to do it for days, I can't even make a source package right now >_<
<_MMA_> Well that's a whole other issue.
<thorwil> good evening, nand
<nand> good evening thorwil. And good luck with your project!
<thorwil> nand: heh, thanks! we can always use a critical eye ;)
<nand> honestly, it seems pretty abstract to me, but well, I do not have an artistic point of view
<thorwil> nand: it's design, not art ;)
<nand> :)
<nand> I would maybe expect some milestones
<nand> that would help push the effort, IMO
<thorwil> can't set them without knowing who is on board and before we have made out the size of the mountain
<nand> indeed, that's pretty young
<nand> and because the front page is not clear : is the goal a theme, a new UI, a whole undefined area?
<nand> not yet defined too? :)
<thorwil> nand: a bit of all that. but on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/KyudoGuidelines/Foundation you find a briefing
<nand> that's indeed pretty vast :)
<nand> I wish you good luck at gathering and managing a team!
 * nand gogo dinner
<thorwil> nand: i think that the theme and all other artwork should be adjusted to each other. that's why i didn't limit things to theming directly, i just say that's what we concentrate on first
<thorwil> nand: bon appetite
<nand> :)
 * DanaG likes bright orange... it's a color psychology thing.
 * thorwil thinks it'd good that Troy isn't here
<DanaG> Can't say I know who Troy is.
<DanaG> But I mean that I find blue, and grey (or is it "gray"?) a bit gloomy sometimes.
<thorwil> you would get to know him right now if he were here ;)
<aantn> kwwii: there's a lot of support for Dust on the wiki and digg
<aantn> kwwii: if one theme gets to go in by default, I think Dust would make most of the community happy
<thorwil> DanaG: it all depends on the exact shade and context. siganl orange amidst calm colors is terribly agressive. a spot of orange next to foggy colors might be pure joy
 * DanaG goes off elsewhere.
<DanaG> That's true.
<DanaG> Anyway, I have to go off elsewhere for now.
<thorwil> well, have fun
<thorwil> dust is good work, but i can't shake off the feeling that the dark/bright contrast breaks the windows apart
<aantn> thorwil: understandable
<rsc--> why's it good that Troy's not here?
<rsc--> he hates orange? :)
<thorwil> rsc--: no, just broad statements like that
<rsc--> ahh.
<thorwil> rsc--: regarding good work, i would love to see you take part in project kyudo :)
<rsc--> thorwil, what exactly is Kyudo, anyway?
<rsc--> I do like the manifesto and the brief with the 'target audience', though.
<rsc--> I must say that's some good direction in setting a vision -- better than the "Make something kickass" we've had to go along for quite a while
<thorwil> rsc--: at the moment, kyudo is what you find on the wiki
<rsc--> ...but I'm still not sure on what Kyudo itself is.
<rsc--> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/KyudoGuidelines/Foundation ?
<thorwil> rsc--: initially, it is the briefing. it will be extended by research, requirements, concpetion, design
<Nece228> gtk2 or qt3, which is faster?
<thorwil> rsc--: yes, Foundation contains the briefing and the very core
<_MMA_> Neither.
<rsc--> from what I'm reading, it seems like an extensive overhaul. not just with the easily-customizable aspects (theme, sound, etc) -- but aesthetics/usability of upstream apps, and even marketing and packaging.
<rsc--> would I be right about that?
<rsc--> Nece228, on modern systems, I think benchmarking one over the other would be a moot point.
<thorwil> rsc--: that is only the really long term idea. i have written that mainly because i think tht it all should be adjusted to each other
<thorwil> rsc--: and because much of the foundation for the theme is also of interest for the website and such
<rsc--> Nece228, also, a "gtk vs. qt" benchmark can't be precisely measurable or realistic since QT apps will have many things on top of them (KDE system, etc) and same with GTK.
<thorwil> rsc--: so, those who get involved now only need to be interested in theming, actually
<rsc--> thorwil, I like it.
<thorwil> rsc--: cool, ty
<rsc--> thorwil, just gotta work on disseminating that vision, and making some short-term goals. :)
<rsc--> I'd help out in any way I can.
<thorwil> rsc--: great. a note of support on the list might help already ;)
<thorwil> rsc--: the part i'm most insecure about is the target audience and what he conclusions should be there
<rsc--> I've been ruminating about the whole "target audience" for quite a bit now and my conclusions so far are quite similar to yours
<rsc--> any arguments against your thoughts so far?
<_MMA_> kwwii thorwil: I need a set of "Suggested colors" for the template ASAP.
<thorwil> rsc--: so far there is no discussion about that. i mean, excpet what happened before it went on the wiki. i talked with Troy alot :)
<rsc--> okay.
<rsc--> replying to the mailing list thread now. :)
<thorwil> rsc--: his blog, btw http://troy-sobotka.blogspot.com/
<thorwil> rsc--: with posts such as http://troy-sobotka.blogspot.com/2008/08/ubuntu-design-part-1-who-should-be.html
<_MMA_> Should be: http://grumpy-art-guy.blogspot.com
<rsc--> ah, yeah.
<rsc--> ive been talking to him every now and then too.
<thorwil> lol
<_MMA_> rsc--: He has mentioned you to me.
<rsc--> [and hes' not quite happy with the direction of dust, heh :)]
<thorwil> rsc--: he keeps your work in high regard
<rsc--> so i hear
<thorwil> _MMA_: if you want colors today, i could only directly sample from human. from the impression it left here, i would say you need just one orange and some bright gray. i perceive that as it's weakness, though
<_MMA_> Which? The orange or gray?
<thorwil> _MMA_: both. the overbearing orange with very little to break it up
<_MMA_> That unfortunately will say "Human" to most familiar with Ubuntu. Mark also IIRC wants it. At least on the folders.
<_MMA_> I do quite like Ken V.s folders. With some tweaks.
<thorwil> i thought you wanted to get away from his Markness?
<_MMA_> I said we will work with him. Not bow to every demand.
<thorwil> _MMA_: Ken Vs folders are sexy, but problematic becasue of that bright line on the bottom and the reflection. that will not work for most other icons
<_MMA_> And I agree the orange should stay anyway.
<_MMA_> Then we just use it where it works.
<rsc--> thorwil, okay, i posted some of my thoughts on the "Announcing Project Kyudo" thread. hopefully they make sense :b
<_MMA_> Maybe *just* the folders.
<thorwil> _MMA_: i'm ok with orange folders
<_MMA_> thorwil: The web2.0 reflection has to go. I made a note of that. But the glow on the folders is unique.
<_MMA_> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/BreatheIconSet/Icons
<thorwil> but for example, making navigation arrows orange is somewhat problematic, as it can be a signal/warning color. it surely doesn't say: all things normal, this is save to do
<_MMA_> We're just talking about the folders atm. ;)
<_MMA_> Here, I feel it fits. When we get to the nav buttons, it might not work. We'll deal with that then.
<_MMA_> thorwil: And you better remember the audience thing about color there mister. ;)
<thorwil> _MMA_: if i would be strict in the process, i would have to say that we can take no single step on the icons now ;)
<rsc--> http://bp1.blogger.com/_95-BHeta7y8/SHEZ5YwZIKI/AAAAAAAAAbg/46Of1boiEZE/s1600-h/ff.jpg
<_MMA_> Hell with that. We would be here for years. That's Troy's attitude. You can't plan everything.
<rsc--> anyone with any thoughts on getting Breathe to go near that direction?
<_MMA_> rsc--: Depends on who draws what and what a small trusted group thinks.
<rsc-> what about you guys?
<rsc-> I'd personally be interested in making more icons in that style.
<_MMA_> What about us? We do know about that image. It's old.
<rsc-> okay
<_MMA_>  rsc-: I know that if we want any shot at being used as default we can't use the folder. So we would shoot ourselves in the foot from the start.
<thorwil> rsc-: i'd be looking for something in the middle
<_MMA_> So that's up to us a group to decide.
<rsc-> what do you mean "use the folder"?
<_MMA_> I'm unsure what other way to say it.
<rsc-> as in, "use that folder image"? or "use something that realistically looks like a cardboard folder?"
<thorwil> rsc-: shuttleworth hired a design agency to create the base set of human icons. the single most important icon is the folder. Mark even said that he is especially interested in folders
<rsc-> ah.
<thorwil> rsc-: so that human folder tells us about what Mark likes and wants. at least wanted at some point
<rsc-> I see
<thorwil> rsc-: now _MMA_ wants breathe to have a real chance of being accpeted as default. this is a possible conflict with kyudo
<_MMA_> Chance. Not depend.
<thorwil> rsc-: i'm willing to make compromises because something is better than nothing and because our community sure as hell can't carry 2 icon efforts
<rsc-> i see now
<_MMA_> There's always gonna be some. You should hear kwwii's stories about Oxygen.
<thorwil> rsc-: i also think it might end up to be a  small compromise, not mattering much in the long run
<thorwil> _MMA_: i have human in icon-library now. if you really think it's helpful, i shall pick the main colors for you
<_MMA_> I think it will be helpful to get a small group of colors to take cues from yes.
<thorwil> coming within the next hour or less
<_MMA_> Otherwise, I think we're just gonna end up with Oxygen and not the hybrid I had envisioned.
<_MMA_> And I'll even take these colors to the ML for discussion.
<thorwil> rsc-: that's a great reply and nice to see that you really understand what this is about. might not get to reply this evening, but i better leave room for others, anyway. thanks :)
<thorwil> JoeyReds: hi! seen the project kyudo announcement on the list?
 * _MMA_ takes a break.
<JoeyReds> thorwil:  sorry, I was afk
<JoeyReds> checking list now...
<JoeyReds> looks good
<thorwil> JoeyReds: would be cool if you join the fun. you could start with a note of support. Rico has some interesting points. of special interest to me right now are comments regarding the target audience and what the conclusions should be. what the selection means for the design
<JoeyReds> yeah, I'll write something on the kind of processes I've come across.
<thorwil> cool :)
<JoeyReds> did you see the second mock-up I posted the other day?
<thorwil> JoeyReds: the big buttons?
<rsc-> which mockup is that?
<JoeyReds> sorry, correction, I didn't post it to the list just threw it up here.
<JoeyReds> thorwil: the one with the top buttons joined together.
<thorwil> JoeyReds: yes. looked nice in that naked state. how does it look if you add icons?
<_MMA_> Link to topic of discussion?
<JoeyReds> it looks good, just playing about with text alignment at the mo.
<JoeyReds> _MMA_:  the only link I can give is to a hosted image, I'm going to work on it a little more before I put it out there properly.
<JoeyReds> http://img254.imageshack.us/my.php?image=comp2jo2.jpg
<_MMA_> JoeyReds: Ok. So what's the goal here?
<JoeyReds> I wanted to first of all improve the breadcrumbs.
<JoeyReds> I think currently they don't look enough like a path.
<rsc-> I like the crumbs.
<_MMA_> JoeyReds: Agreed.
<rsc-> I've always thought of doing something like that too
<JoeyReds> I also wanted to play about with a dark titlebar, there seems to be a lot of hoo-hahing (technical term) about dark themes, and I wanted to try and find a middle ground.
<_MMA_> I wonder if that is a particular widget one could have specific settings for?
<JoeyReds> plus, I'm a huge fan of the FF-Mac style back/next buttons, so I adapted them to fit the current window layout.
<thorwil> rsc-:, JoeyReds: an old mockup with lots of problems, but you can see that i once thought along similar lines: http://thorwil.files.wordpress.com/2007/09/ubuntu_theme_32.jpg
<JoeyReds> yeah I see. Looks nice.
<thorwil> note that we have to be careful about things that are currently not possible, technically
<_MMA_> +1
<JoeyReds> yeah, I was wondering about that.
<thorwil> while that shouldn't stop us from designing in that direction, we must always have something that _can_ be implemented directly
<thorwil> for the upcoming release
<JoeyReds> of course.
<JoeyReds> so would that style of breadcrumbs be possible?
<thorwil> JoeyReds: would likely require changes to GTK+
<thorwil> Cimi: seen JoeyReds mockup with that breadrumb widget?
<rsc-> i.e., not likely
<Cimi> without taking care of it mockups and efforts are just a big waste of time. there are some HIGs to follow before disigning
<Cimi> no thorwil
<Cimi> which one?
<thorwil> Cimi: http://img254.imageshack.us/my.php?image=comp2jo2.jpg
<JoeyReds> just a few ideas.
<JoeyReds> I guess I need a better understanding of what's possible.
<Cimi> the one of yesterday?
<rsc-> JoeyReds, what are the big empty buttons (next to forward) for?
<JoeyReds> there were a couple yesterday, quite similar.
<JoeyReds> rsc - Home, Computer, Search, Up Directory etc.
<thorwil> Cimi: the question is what kind of changes on which level would be required to implement that?
<JoeyReds> I'm good at designing for the web because I'm also a clientside developer, I can do XHTML strict, liquid layouts and JS Behavioural layers until the cows come home.
<rsc-> JoeyReds, if you're to do a completely new interface for a file browser, why not consider moving "computer" and "home" elsewhere? the toolbar is for actions ("go back", "reload") and home/computer probably needs another place.
<JoeyReds> and because I have this knowledge I can innovate, with Ubuntu I don't really know what's possible.
<Cimi> bigbuttons prev/next or the address items?
<thorwil> JoeyReds: that should help you to understand how theme engines and their configuration work, but of course you have to invest there. as do i :)
<JoeyReds> prev/next with contextual drop downs.
<thorwil> Cimi: address items
<rsc-> just thinking in "designing with the need" in mind here. :) also, i'd imagine Search and Change View might be commonly-used, might wanna account for those too.
 * _MMA_ would kill to be able to re-arrange the toolbars in Nautilus like you can in Epiphany.
<rsc-> i'd kill for a better location bar like the one on Joeys mockup :)
<JoeyReds> yes, this mock-up is far from finished.
<rsc-> theyre like apple's breadcrumbs, but whattheheck.
<Cimi> nothing that could be implemented without touching nautilus and gtk+
<JoeyReds> I just wanted some feedback on the breadcrumbs and the prev/next really.
<JoeyReds> I see.
<rsc-> JoeyReds, a better presentation for the breadcrumbs, like the one you did, I think will get everyone's nods
 * Cimi doesn't like both, sorry
<rsc-> or most people's at least
<JoeyReds> Cimi, fair enough, why? I like criticism. :)
<rsc-> back button: a little more controversial. what about consistency with the rest of the OS? whats the reason behind enlarging it and the forward button? etc.
<JoeyReds> better usability, they're used a great deal by most people I've spoken to.
<Cimi> i don't think having big buttons for prev/next would be that useful... imagine that you're also adding a lot of padding to the toolbar wasting space
<JoeyReds> Interesting, I suppose Linux users are a little more savvy.
<thorwil> agreed reagrding the padding
 * rsc- thinks the Nautilus toolbar right now is unnecessarily fat as it is
<thorwil> oh yes
<thorwil> i hate the browser view of nautilus :)
<Cimi> for breadcrumbs... I don't like their design, anyway they should require work inside gtk+
<rsc-> consider other options. how about consolidating the back/fwd onto the location bar (ala web browser).. just spewing out thoughts here
<rsc-> I like the browser view for the location bar.
<Cimi> rsc
<JoeyReds> so each breadcrumb element is seperate from the next? no 'overlapping' as it were.
<Cimi> the final solution would be a customizable toolbar
<andreasn> what does the Main toolbar do that the breadcrumb don't?
 * rsc- agrees with Cimi
<Cimi> actually they are just simple buttons
<Cimi> no special  cases
<Cimi> you can draw them inside nautilus
<Cimi> like banshee is drawing their widgets
<rsc-> but then it won't follow the gtk theme, will it?
<JoeyReds> Is there a wiki on the ins and outs of creating the UI, I don't' even know what language or IDE it's developed in.
<Cimi> no they won't
<rsc-> JoeyReds, GTK theming? you're on your own. :P most of the documentation i found on the net are either incomplete, outdated, or both :P
<JoeyReds> hmm...
 * Cimi is the best documentation currently available, honestly :P
<JoeyReds> heh
<JoeyReds> cool.
<JoeyReds> do you come as a native app for iPhone?
<Cimi> lol
<rsc-> hehe, I think Cimi means that his GTK engine has the best documentation among all the others's
<Cimi> no
<Cimi> i meant that the documentation available is complicated, and the easier way to fixproblems in themes is to ask someone who did themes for years
<rsc-> oh, right
<rsc-> okay, well, how do I go about figuring out how to make an exception for certain apps for my GTK themes?
<rsc-> :p
 * JoeyReds <---ciggie break
<Cimi> if the apps are naming their widgets you can, otherwise not
<Cimi> usually you can't
<thorwil> _MMA_: human colors in the mail. complete with screenshots i used, so you can easily improve/add to it, if you feel like
<_MMA_> thanx.
<_MMA_> gonna spend some time with the kids.
<rsc-> Cimi, how do I find out if they are?
<rsc-> is there some sort of inspector I can use?
<Cimi> they don't
<rsc-> some are.
<rsc-> rhythmbox does, for instance
 * thorwil finally manages to announce kyudo on his blog
<thorwil> Cimi: i hope you will have a look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/KyudoGuidelines, too :)
<thorwil> good night!
<Cimi> night
<JoeyReds> night
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-09-23
<kwwii> good morning
<Ziroday> kwwii: we must have just missed each other last night? You still there now?
<kwwii> Ziroday: yepp
<Ziroday> kwwii: gret
<Ziroday> *great
<Ziroday> did you see my email regarding DA?
<Ziroday> or last nights backlog?
<kwwii> nope, haven't checked my emails in a while...been working on another machine
<Ziroday> kwwii: thought as much :)
<Ziroday> kwwii: well basically DA said unless canonical sponsered the event (not sure in what capacity)
<Ziroday> then they would not
<Ziroday> however if canonical does sponser that means that either the winning wallpaper would be the default or at least on the cd and/or canonical would have to put up prizes
<Ziroday> and since canonical is you in this case :)
<kwwii> Ziroday: yeah, and promised to include it...I'd have to talk to mark about this before I could agree to that
<Ziroday> thats very much what I thought
<Ziroday> otherwise we could always have a wallpaper contest outside of DA
<Ziroday> similar to the KDE4 one
<Ziroday> cause what I want from the spec (or how I see it) is that we are trying to get CC artists who may not have even considered doing something for ubuntu interested and have an easy way for them to start contributing
<Ziroday> kwwii: anyway heart of the matter is that you have to take it to mark and get his decision
<kwwii> yepp
<Ziroday> and I am more then happy to drop it or persue this wherever it goes :)
<kwwii> I have a phone call with him tomorrow, I will ask him then
<kwwii> better to ask in person :-)
<Ziroday> kwwii: thats wonderful
<Ziroday> kwwii: I'll hang out here for the response then
<Ziroday> and have an awesome night (or day)
<kwwii> ok, sounds good
<kwwii> 1 in the afternoon here now
<Ziroday> ah
<Ziroday> around 7 here in asia
<kwwii> working for canonical has opened up my mind to different time zones :p
<Ziroday> kwwii: I still can't get my head around that when I go to sleep some peoples day starts half way across the world
<kwwii> for a while I had meeting with people from intel in California and people at an unamed hardware manufacturer in Taiwan...it was nice to be in the middle :p
<Ziroday> germany?
<kwwii> yepp, northern bavaria
 * Ziroday has always wanted to visit germany
<Ziroday> my parents rave about it all the time
<kwwii> the beer is great!
<Ziroday> haha :D
<kwwii> where do you live in asia?
<Ziroday> singapore
<Ziroday> a very boring little country
<Ziroday> ever been there?
<kwwii> nope, but I love green tea :-)
<Ziroday> ha, well if you ever do come enjoy the food
<kwwii> I have never been anywhere in asia
<Ziroday> kwwii: you havent!
<kwwii> maybe one day when I get time off and have enough money
<kwwii> kinda hard with a wife and kid
<Ziroday> well singapore is a nice starting place, its asia for wimps basically
<kwwii> hehe, nice
<Ziroday> mmm and expensive with wife and kids
<kwwii> I do love asian food though :-)
<Ziroday> if asian foods is anything like the stuff in the US you might be in for a shock
 * Ziroday is fond of japanese food
<Ziroday> but it is terribly expensive
<kwwii> always wanted to try sambal stingray
<Ziroday> never heard of it
<Ziroday> oh that!
<kwwii> ;-)
<Ziroday> yes it is nice but very very bad for you
<kwwii> really, how so?
<Ziroday> fattening
<kwwii> ouch, well that is out then...just heard about it and thought it sounded interesting
<Ziroday> if you like that then you might also like chilli or pepper crab
<Ziroday> also very very nice
<kwwii> yes! the chili crab sounds delicous (I love crab)
<Ziroday> yep the chilli crab sure is nice
<Ziroday> with cereal prawns
<Ziroday> and deep fried baby squid
<Ziroday> mmm
 * Ziroday is now very hungry
<kwwii> mmm, squid does sound good
<kwwii> I bet you get it really fresh (so it is not too chewey)
<Ziroday> well if you ever are in sg find me and I'll take you for a yummy seafood dinner
<kwwii> in germany that is the kind of stuff you stay away from because there is no way it is fresh :-)
<Ziroday> erm the food is okay freshness wise
<Ziroday> its usually around ~3 days old
<Ziroday> as none of its caught in sg
<Ziroday> all in other parts of south east asia and then shipped here
<kwwii> here it is usually weeks old
<Ziroday> ouch'
<kwwii> I have a friend from greece and they drive down every month and pic up fresh fish
<Ziroday> ooh
<kwwii> so once a month I get decent seafood
<Ziroday> well I am new zealander from origin and having fish less then 4 hours old from the sea is just beautiful
<kwwii> pretty much all the food in germany is fattening :p
<kwwii> meat and potatoes
<Ziroday> I bet you get good steaks and such no?
<kwwii> lots of pork here...for steaks you need to go to brazil :-)
<Ziroday> ah
<Ziroday> kwwii: sorry elisa had a hissy fit on me
<Ziroday> and I miss a good pork roast
<Ziroday> most of the meat here is chicken, and horrible caged, hormone injected chickens at that
<kwwii> ohhh, if you like roast you would love it here
<Ziroday> I do miss my roasts
<Ziroday> had them alot in NZ
<kwwii> I buy all my meat from an organic farm so nothing I get has any hormones or such in it
<Ziroday> stuff like that is hard to find here and very expensive
<kwwii> the chicken is a bit smaller but has a better flavor
<kwwii> in the last 5 years or so organic food has become very popular here
<Ziroday> mmm I doubt it would here
<Ziroday> everyone likes hawker cause its cheaper then mcdonalds
<Ziroday> about SG$4.50 for a really good meal for one
<kwwii> I guess that such stuff has its place as well
<kwwii> I have no idea what the exchange rate is :-)
<Ziroday> ha mcdonalds doesn't have nearly any places here
<Ziroday> its about US$3.18
<Ziroday> for a meal and drink for one
<Ziroday> at a hawker center that is, and thats a pretty gourment meal at that
<kwwii> wow, that is cheap
<Ziroday> government has large subsidies on rice :)
<Ziroday> pretty much near free rice is
<Ziroday> but in germany you have autobahns?
<kwwii> yes! I drive my mercedes at around 220km/h :-)
 * Ziroday wants
<Ziroday> just to try at least once
<Ziroday> it must be so much fun
<kwwii> at first it is pretty scary...it took me a few years to get used to going so fast
<Ziroday> yeah I can imagine
<Ziroday> but it would be one hell of a awesome commute :)
<Ziroday> but in germany you don't have national service?
<kwwii> germany has a great train service (and buses, etc)
<kwwii> we have a fast train that goes like 200km/h as well
<Ziroday> serious!
<Ziroday> we only have the underground
<kwwii> I have a card for reduced prices in the 1st class section...that is the way to travel
<Ziroday> only time I have ever been on a train was in the US and I thought that was great fun
<Ziroday> but I can't imagine a country that takes longer then 20minutes to cross
<kwwii> lol
<Ziroday> anyway I need to go now
<Ziroday> have to actually get some work done :P
<kwwii> ok, have fun, talk to you soon
<kwwii> hehe, yeah, me too
<Ziroday> you have a great afternoon
<Ziroday> kwwii: thanks!
<kwwii> thanks :-)
<thorwil> hello!
<thorwil> good morning _MMA_
<_MMA_> Hi
<_MMA_> kwwii: Get anywhere on that wallpaper?
<thorwil> so Ken V. is gone
<_MMA_> Yep. :(
<thorwil> wonder how we can attract new people
<_MMA_> I'll have a wide announcement ASAP.
<thorwil> _MMA_: breathe/kyudo combined?
<_MMA_> Breathe.
<thorwil> funny how we have endless threads of bla-bla, but now it's like syrup :)
<_MMA_> Totally. It's those damn kids. Good for nothing. ;)
<_MMA_> bbl (morning stuff)
<kwwii> _MMA_: still working on it
<_MMA_> kwwii: preview?
<_MMA_> bbs
<kwwii> _MMA_: in a bit I can show you a couple of ideas
<thorwil> me too ;)
<kwwii> thorwil: I know this is a no-no, but I made this a while ago... http://sinecera.de/ubuntu_brushStroke.png
<thorwil> kwwii: what is it for and why a non-no?
<thorwil> ah yes, we don't play with the logo :)
<kwwii> right :-)
<kwwii> but it looked nifty so I kept it
<aantn> kwwii: heh :-)
<aantn> it does look nifty, even if it'll never be used
<_MMA_> kwwii: I wanna know what you have in mind as far as a base file icon.
<kwwii> erm, you mean mimetype template?
<kwwii> or just the empty file template?
<_MMA_> Latter
<_MMA_> Since you don't care for the page curl thing.
<kwwii> I'll have to take a look at the latest
<_MMA_> Latest what?
<kwwii> template
<_MMA_> I just pulled from Oxygen. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/BreatheIconSet/Icons
<_MMA_> Oh. We're mixed up.
<kwwii> no doubt
<kwwii> :-)
<_MMA_> The file icon itself.
<DanaG> Oh good, a straight-on icon set, rather than a slanty one.
<_MMA_> DanaG: You're gonna help right?
<DanaG> I'm not an artist, actually.
<_MMA_> I have grunt work you can do. ;) I'd personally like to see less talk and more action from you.
<kwwii> ok, here is an idea for a wallpaper....not finished, and just a mod of my other one on the wiki...and very brown
<kwwii> http://sinecera.de/ibex_mod2a.png
<kwwii> and with that, I will go make myself a tea
<_MMA_> DanaG: No "Ok. I can get involved." Nothing?
<DanaG> Oh yeah, what is there that I'd be able to do?
<_MMA_> I will have work where you using Inkscape to take the various sizes of the Oxygen icons and putting them into our template.
<_MMA_> s/using/use
<DanaG> What's the template?
 * DanaG goes up a level... and finds it.
<_MMA_> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/BreatheIconSet
<_MMA_> Now I'm not ready to start this yet as the template still needs a couple of fixes. But you can still play with it.
<_MMA_> kwwii: Since Ken V has had to take a leave, when you can, I'd like to see your idea/revisions of his folder icon and the generic file icon.
 * DanaG goes off to classes now.
<thorwil> kwwii: http://sinecera.de/ibex_mod2a.png makes me think of sun flares. the horn/spiral idea is not clear there
 * _MMA_ agrees. It's also, kinda bland. (sorry)
<_MMA_> kwwii: Maybe use the logo colors like you did in the others? Transparent like you have the circles here. Should end up kinds subtle but might be a nice touch of color.
<kwwii> yeah, I am going to put the color back into it somehow
<kwwii> the darker version looks better with the colors
<kwwii> I gotta take my wife to the doctor and my son to judo, bbl
<_MMA_> later
<szerencsefia> Is here any 'master' of Metacity?
<_MMA_> Probably best to just !ask. ;)
<szerencsefia> sure, I aim to have shaded state to be different at the bottom edge from normal state. Is this possible to make?
<_MMA_> Hmm... Lemmie look.
<_MMA_> I can say I've never seen it though. Only active vs. inactive.
<szerencsefia> right, that I know
<szerencsefia> I could not get so far anyhow shaded state to be different :'(
<_MMA_> http://developer.gnome.org/doc/tutorials/metacity/metacity-themes.html
<_MMA_> szerencsefia: From looking at that I would say, maybe.
<szerencsefia> Thanks for this. I sent email to both of them at the bottom, but no answer yet and the documentation did not include answer to my question.
<_MMA_> szerencsefia: Im gonna say you can because I see several mentions to the state in various metacity themes.
<szerencsefia> hmm
<_MMA_> Mostly referencing the titlebar. But if it's a state like maximized and whatnot, might be possible.
<szerencsefia> _MMA_: do ya have any theme in mind that draws somewhat shaded state and I could look into to compare with mine?
<szerencsefia> or anyone ... 8-)
<_MMA_> szerencsefia: The Human theme doesn't?
<_MMA_> Hi Conn.
<psyke83> hey
<szerencsefia> if it does so, I did not recognize it
<kwwii> re
<_MMA_> tard
<thorwil> is
<thorwil> _MMA_: got any private replies regarding Breathe meeting?
<kwwii> ooooh-y-oooh taking retards to the zoo
<_MMA_> thorwil: Nope.
<thorwil> lets rename our efforts to Dry and Desert, then ^^
<_MMA_> :)
<kwwii> my secret is to tell people that they have no choice or say in the matter and they seem to love offering ideas :p (joke)
<_MMA_> s/Breathe/Choke
<thorwil> if interest goes up after the release? perhaps including a few capable souls among the muppets?
<_MMA_> We'll see. I think it's our show 'till them. Be as open and communicative as you can but I don't expect much for a bit.
<_MMA_> *then
 * _MMA_ goes to play with the kids. (not a euphemism) 
<kwwii> _MMA_: wait
<_MMA_> ?
<kwwii> http://sinecera.de/ibex_mod2ba.png
<kwwii> with color
 * _MMA_ puts up ac wallpaper.
<kwwii> just the basic idea, no specifics
<_MMA_> kwwii: are you working with this as a widescreen?
<_MMA_> kwwii: The green feels out of place to me but I think this could go go somewhere. Though, this feels like a kid doing his homework 5 mins before class is supposed to start. :P
<thorwil> kwwii: better. nice to see some fresh color in there. what if you make one of the spirals a bit more prominent?
<thorwil> oh damn, forgot
<thorwil> kwwii: please tell us about your intentions, the target audience, what is your message? ^^
<_MMA_> hahahahaha
<_MMA_> ***thorwil is now known as troy_s.
<thorwil> troywil? oh noes!
<_MMA_> :P
<thorwil> _MMA_: hush hush, it's playing time :p
<_MMA_> kwwii: Though, with a darker theme, I quite like this as-is.
<kwwii> my target audience is color-blind gender transitioned 37 year olds
<_MMA_> LOL! <-really did. :)
<thorwil> now that you say it, i can't make out the numbers in the dots :O
<kwwii> I am going to take something like at and put it as wallpaper and make another version for GDM and put it in intrepid
<kwwii> let the forums have their fun
<_MMA_> thorwil kwwii: Added new "color cues". http://mma.users.ubuntustudio.org/Breathe_Icon_Template_revised.svg
<darkmatter> dear... GAWD... next time a themer uses gtk-tooltips instead of gtk-tooltip* they better damn well get life in prison. Maybe that'll make the rest of them get with the program and learn...
<_MMA_> :D
 * thorwil looks at template
<thorwil> _MMA_: did you have a look at the human icons and their colors yourself?
<_MMA_> thorwil: No sir. I did not. I simply grabbed the swatches.
<_MMA_> Oh wait.
<_MMA_> yeah. I looked. :)
<_MMA_> But thought your picks were fine.
<_MMA_> If that's what you were after.
<thorwil> ok. yes
<_MMA_> So if you're fine with that format I'll get Ken to look over and go from there.
<darkmatter> geez.. even half of the upstream gnome themes use gtk-tooltips *beats gnome art team to death with a cluebat*
<thorwil> scaling the swatched to non-integer values has interesting effects on their borders. they touch, but inkscape still draws a bit brighter there
<thorwil> darkmatter: what's the problem there?
<thorwil> _MMA_: fine
<darkmatter> gtk-tooltips is obselete :P it's actually gtk-tooltip now, but some third-party apps still use the 's', so the proper syntax is gtk-tooltip* ;o
<thorwil> sounds like the name change was totally worth it ^^
<darkmatter> I mean, if they're working upstream they should realize this :P
<andreasn> darkmatter: you should probably file a bug(s)
<darkmatter> yup.. and attach an announcement "attention themers: we know where you live" :P
<_MMA_> hahahahahahah
 * _MMA_ gives a glance at his Studio theme.
<thorwil> _MMA_: each time i wonder if that's haha funny or *oh yes, that is soooo funny :P*
<_MMA_> hehe. gtk-tooltip* in the Studio theme. :P
<_MMA_> thorwil: Same as LOL for me. It's an actual laugh. :)
<thorwil> ah, ok
<thorwil> aantn: http://thorwil.wordpress.com/2008/09/23/infolders-informative-folders/
<aantn> thorwil: cool
<thorwil> aantn: ty. think you can do something with this? even if just bringing it to a wider audience?
<aantn> thorwil: I hope so
<_MMA_> thorwil: XP does something like this. Kinda neat but I've never found it useful. Can't say no to having the feature available though. :)
<aantn> thorwil: at the very least, I can bring it to the attention of people who have the power to absolutely make it happen
<thorwil> _MMA_: i'm nost sure, but isn't it only for images and will only show the first 4 or something?
<aantn> _MMA_: if you mix this with os x style previews and big (coverflowed?) icons then it's a lot more useful
<thorwil> aantn: great :)
<aantn> thorwil: good job with the mockups, though
<thorwil> even just having folders that imply one of: empty, few items, many items would be nice
<aantn> thorwil: yeah
<aantn> _MMA_: how about showing a much larger preview on mouseover
<thorwil> aantn: i tried to not spend to much time on it, but i also know that a shoddy presentation can kill :)
<aantn> _MMA_: instantly access contents w/o opening the folder in a full window
<aantn> thorwil: yeah, that's true
<_MMA_> thorwil: Sure. That's why I said "*something* like this". Last I looked it did video as well. I could be mistaken. And it is only 4.
<thorwil> _MMA_: yes. i asked because i'm not sure. last i sat in front of XP, i used detail view all the time :)
<_MMA_> For me, I just found the images too small. Not good enough to really know what's inside. And sometimes, at a glance, I had to remember what I was looking at. Is that a folder, icon, whatever?
<aantn> _MMA_: a big hover over would help that
<_MMA_> That could be cool.
<aantn> like os x's quick look but for entire folders
<thorwil> _MMA_: for me, here, a clue about the number of items is the important thing. if you make something out about images, that's just a plus. pr0n folders should stand out ;)
<_MMA_> Though it needs some tweaks, I think the new Thunar preview thing they ripped from Vista.
<_MMA_> thorwil: LOL! You know though, I don't want someone peaking over my shoulder seeing all that. :P
<_MMA_> 1084 p0rn files!
<_MMA_> No thank you. :) Kids are gettin' smarter by the day.
<_MMA_> *My kids...
<thorwil> _MMA_: don't you use a harmless/start/path/continued/with/boring/to/in_the_depth/pygmy-riding-on-chicken-pr0n?
<_MMA_> hahah Um.
<_MMA_> /media/Multimedia/Video/Adult
 * _MMA_ thinks this has taken a weird turn. :)
<thorwil> heh
<aantn> any thoughts on this? --> http://theesylum.com/2008/09/14/task-centric-design/
<aantn> the general idea, not the specific design
<thorwil> wasn't there such a sidebar in the online desktop stuff?
<thorwil> good if the sidebar is just a possible container for applets
 * thorwil never leaves so much space to the sides of app windows
<aantn> thorwil: yes
<aantn> thorwil: look at the notes on the second mockup
<_MMA_> aantn: While I think it's cool eye-candy, for me, a dashboard/sidebar gets in the way. This type of feature might depend on audience.
<thorwil> http://www.redhatmagazine.com/2007/11/13/tour-of-gnome-online-desktop/
<aantn> thorwil, _MMA_: this doesn't need to be limited to a sidebar; see the notes
<aantn> also, I wonder if something like this is implementable with the online desktop
<thorwil> no clue if and how that project progressed
<aantn> thorwil: it's still being developed... somewhat
<_MMA_> aantn: Sure. I'm personally not a big widget user either. I have a very specific setup. So I might not be your audiance. :)
<aantn> thorwil: I think the usage of a sidebar may have restricted things
<thorwil> aantn: what exactly is the idea here, if we look past having applets that can sit on a sidebar or elsewhere?
 * aantn ranted to owen about something similar a while back
<thorwil> an idea i support, although i'm not a widget user, either, so far :)
<aantn> thorwil: track events and display them to the user
<aantn> show the user want he wants to see anyway instead of making him check
<aantn> also, make it very easy to react to events and to view related information
<thorwil> all good stuff. the fun starts if you work out the details
<aantn> thorwil: aye
 * aantn wonders how something like this would work out with the document-centric-gnome and semantic-desktop ideas
<thorwil> aantn: i wonder if events could be expressed as files
<aantn> thorwil: why?
<aantn> events should be associated with documents (not necessarily files) but they themselves aren't really files
<thorwil> aantn: to use the same search/filter mechanism for documents, email, events ...
<thorwil> good evening Cimi
<aantn> I'd say the key concepts to focus on are events, documents (not necessarily files), time, actions (things you can do with documents, often in response to an event), and people (which are a useful way of grouping actions, events, and documents)
<Cimi> you too thorwil
<aantn> hey Cimi!
<aantn> btw, I believe the mathusalem-like progress bars are being worked on
<aantn> it would be cool to integrate that with the rest of the mockup
<thorwil> aantn: mathusalem-like?
<aantn> njpatel_away: sorry, who's working on it again?
<aantn> thorwil: http://live.gnome.org/Mathusalem
<aantn> perhaps tracker could be used for some of this
<thorwil> for downloads, i would like to have the file icons appear with progress bar right on them /close to them. a file search for incomplete files would be used to list all downloads in progress
<aantn> thorwil: that would be neat
<aantn> icons do need a refresh
<aantn> they haven't changed much in the past long time
<aantn> thorwil: btw, another person just complimented your icon mockups in #universal-applets
<thorwil> aantn: send my thanks :)
<aantn> thorwil: heh, will do
<thorwil> aantn: or is there an interesting discussion there?
<thorwil> still no subscribers to the kyudo wiki pages. 55 views on main page. maybe i have to take matters piece by piece to the list
<aantn> thorwil: nothing too interesting; mostly discussing names for UA
<thorwil> ok
 * _MMA_ feels like an ass because he hasn't subscribed. Does so now.
<thorwil> interesting new theme on http://planetkde.org/
<thorwil> good night!
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-09-24
<thorwil> hi!
<kwwii> where is Conn when you need him :-)
<thorwil> kwwii: may i remind you of blogging about kyudo? :)
<kwwii> thorwil: yeah, I will do that later tonight
<kwwii> definitely
<thorwil> cool
<kwwii> I have two calls and then band practice
<thorwil> hi aantn
<aantn> hey thorwil!
 * aantn still hasn't finished the blog post he's working
<aantn> on
<aantn> there's some cool stuff going on in real life that's keeping me busy
<thorwil> well, that's good. for you :)
<aantn> thorwil: yeah :)
<aantn> thorwil: it's slightly frustrating not to have finished the post yet, though
<aantn> I'm also thinking of applying for UDS sponsorship and the deadline is tomorrow
<thorwil> can't afford that and would feel like a suppliant - and idea i don't like at all
<aantn> thorwil: ?
<aantn> the point off sponsorship is that they pay for people who aren't sent by their work
<thorwil> aantn: having to ask and offering a talk plus crew work to be there
 * aantn shrugs
<aantn> I'm a student, so I guess it's a bit different
<thorwil> yes :) i would need to take holidays and you can bet that i will rather use them as such ;)
<aantn> thorwil: right, I didn't think of that
<Nece228> do you think that human murrine is faster than human clearlooks or original human?
<Nece228> ~hi
<thorwil> try it. if you can't make out a difference, it doesn't matter. if it matters at all
<Nece228> i think its a bit faster
<Nece228> but i dont see any significant difference
<Nece228> answer please :'(
<thorwil> Nece228: what exactly are you up to?
<Nece228> thorwil: never mind
<rsc-> hey guise. :)
<Cimi> kwwii, please update the svn
<kwwii> Cimi: yeah, I know...I have to do that tomorrow
<Cimi> great
<Cimi> later I'll need to do a lot of bugfixes
<kwwii> I got the old versions into intrepid today and gave up after I figured out that I was doing old stuff
<kwwii> the themes need to be udpated as well
<kwwii> and I already did a theme update
<kwwii> so I will do both tomorrow
<kwwii> and then I will take a nap :p
<Ziroday> kwwii: any news?
<kwwii> Ziroday: no, we had a very long meeting with some new team members and I honestly didn't get around to asking
<kwwii> I will send an email
<Ziroday> kwwii: no problem :)
<Ziroday> and thanks
<kwwii> I was on the phone for 2+ hours as it was
<kwwii> I was happy that it ended
 * Ziroday knows how horrible com calls can be
<kwwii> I will find out
<kwwii> and get back to you on it
<Ziroday> kwwii: no rush
<Ziroday> and i need to know catch the bus
<Ziroday> have an awesome day :)
<kwwii> see you, have fun
<Ziroday1> whois Ziroday1
<Ziroday1> woops
<Ziroday> there we go, bye kwwii
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-09-25
<fritz09> hello!
<fritz09> peace and love!
<rsc-> hola.
<fritz09> hola rsc
<kwwii> hrm, where is thorwil
<rsc-> kwwii, whens the deadline for community themes for Intrepid?
<rsc-> i.e., till when can I polish dust :p
<kwwii> rsc-: if you have fixes for specific issues/bugs I can still include them today
<kwwii> after today things will get harder to change
<kwwii> but bug fixing is always possible up the end
<rsc-> okay
<rsc-> "bzr branch lp:dusttheme" should be good.
<rsc-> :)
<kwwii> cool, I will look into a bit later
<rsc-> great!
<thorwil> kwwii: thanks for the nice blog post. views are up to 406, where 84 was the top before
<thorwil> now if only this would translate into input/feedback :)
<thorwil> also posted on the ubuntu artwork forum. no reply after 22 hours, hard at work proving its uselessness :>
<kwwii> hehe, cool
<kwwii> people probably don't know how to start the conversation, I think
<thorwil> perhaps
<thorwil> i will try it with the briefing/goals mail on that forum. and hit the community cafe for input on what ubuntu is all about, as experiment
<thorwil> oh, forums have database error :(
<kwwii> lol
<kwwii> popey: hey man! did the human-theme update fix your problem?
<kwwii> sooo many people complained about the new wallpaper that the server started smoking
<thorwil> heh
<thorwil> _MMA_: good morning. Ken's blog-post brought us 406 views. my forum post about kyudo has no single reply after 22 hours. and i'm going for coffee now that you arrive ^^
<_MMA_> :)
<_MMA_> I saw the blog post. I have some things to do this morning but Im generally round.
<popey> hi kwwii just rebooting to test
<rsc-> thorwil, what forum?
<popey> kwwii: still seems broken here
<popey> kwwii: i may be missing something - I am using the NewHuman theme
<rsc-> also, how do you check for pageviews on the ubuntu wiki? :p
<_MMA_> rsc-: It's generally accepted in #ubuntu channels that any mention of a forum is meant to refer to the Ubuntu Forums. Unless otherwise noted.
<rsc-> is there some sort of ubuntu art sub-forum in the ubuntu forums?
<kwwii> popey: argh...suckage
<kwwii> I know exactly how to fix it and I did so already...this makes no sense
<_MMA_> rsc-: Yes.
<rsc-> oh wow.
<rsc-> i certainly haven't been too involved in the ocmmunity to not know about this
<kwwii> popey: is the version you have installed the same as this: http://sinecera.de/human-theme_0.26_all.deb ?
<kwwii> hrm, and make sure that you do not have a NewHuman theme in your .themes dir, of course
<kwwii> and make sure that the window decoration settings are really on NewHuman and not something else like Human-Murrine or such
<popey> ok.. checking
<kwwii> I moved the unfocused text down one pixel, I swear I did :-)
<rsc-> thorwil, I replied on the forum thread to help bump it up, heh :)
<popey> hmm, i just did a wget on that deb and diffed with my local cached copy in /var/cache/apt/archives and they are _not_ the same
 * popey does an apt-get install human-theme --reinstall
<thorwil> rsc-: page views are on one of the sub pages, if you follow the Info link on wiki pages
<popey> kwwii: even if i remove the deb and reinstall - it redownloads and the deb in the repo is _not_ the same as that one on sinecera
<popey> yours is 44020 bytes, the one from the repo is 43514 bytes dated 24/9/08
<popey> (from gb.archive.ubuntu.com which as I understand it _is_ archive.ubuntu.com
<thorwil> rsc-: heh, thanks for the bump :)
<kwwii> popey: hrm, ok...that means that pitti uploaded the wrong one
<kwwii> at least now I understand how it happened
<popey> woot
<popey> have updated the bug report btw
<kwwii> popey: are you using my ppa?
<popey> no
<popey> should I?
<kwwii> well, it always has the newest stuff first
 * popey likes the newest crack
<kwwii> and I was wondering if the package up there is also borked
<popey> will try
 * thorwil has to cut some ivy
 * _MMA_ hands Alan a pipe.
<popey> \o/ pie
<_MMA_> Do you really need more? :P
 * _MMA_ runs.
<popey> _MMA_: http://meow.popey.com/
 * _MMA_ cautiously clicks.
<kwwii> lol, just knowing that you had that ready scares me
<_MMA_> :)
<popey> :)
<_MMA_> thorwil: My availability after the 4th of Oct, and for the 5 weeks or so after will limited. I got a CAD job and will be going to Mexico for a bit. I should be able to attend to anything that needs my direct attention but extra stuff, like chatting here, won't happen much. When I return, things should be back to somewhat normal. Though, I'll be chatting from work and that can be tricky. :)
<popey> kwwii: oddly.. i add your repo, and when i try to reinstall human-theme it gets the one from ubuntu.com not your ppa..
<kwwii> because the official source comes before the other probably
<kwwii> they are at the same version number
<kwwii> or launchpad knows it somehow
<_MMA_> kwwii: Isnt your package supposed to have "PPA" in it or something? And those supersede repo packages?
 * _MMA_ is kinda pullin' that one out of his ass but it sounds right.
<kwwii> no idea
<popey> \o/ we three clueless dudes
 * _MMA_ does a dance.
 * popey takes pictures
<popey> ooo, like the new gdm theme
<kwwii> I bet baby jesus didn't like meetings either
<Cimi> kwwii, if you have some requests/mockups before I will be unreachable, those are the right days
<Cimi> *these
* _MMA_ changed the topic of #ubuntu-artwork to: Channel for the community artwork team | Wiki:  http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork | Mailing list: http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art | Project KyÅ«dÅ - Our future. Chime in on the ML topics and review: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/KyudoGuidelines
<kwwii> popey: lol, there was an error in it...it had one ) too many in the metacity file, there should be a 0.27 within minutes on my PPA and coming soon in Intrepid
<kwwii> Cimi: if I get time to work on anything you will be the first to know
<kwwii> I am typing my fingers off trying to get things ready for the beta
<_MMA_> Uhh... WTF? Has the highlight color been removed from tabs in Murrine or something?
<_MMA_> My little blue stripe has been taken off tabs on the Studio theme. :(
<popey> kwwii: yup fixed in 027 from your ppa, ta!
<_MMA_> Cimi kwwii: See my last post. ^^^
<Nece228> does human-murrine theme is faster?
<kwwii> popey: excellent, thanks for the help
<popey> np
<aantn> thorwil: ping
<thorwil> aantn: pong
<aantn> thorwil: have you ever used Cool Iris?
<thorwil> aantn: no, don't even know what it is
<aantn> thorwil: it's a nifty little extension for firefox that displays bookmark thumbnails on a 3d wall
<thorwil> _MMA_: think you will have the icon process finished by then? i could run with it in the 5 weeks and insist on the results when you come back ;)
<aantn> thorwil: however, it gave me an idea related to our discussion about icons
<aantn> thorwil: have you used iPhoto?
<thorwil> aantn: no
<aantn> thorwil: what the two have in common is zooming interfaces, either for pictures or websites
<aantn> thorwil: I'm playing around with the idea of doing something similar with file browsing
<thorwil> Nece228: would you please stop dropping in here and asking the same shit without any explanation again and again?
<aantn> thorwil: you can compare it to the google maps interface
<aantn> thorwil: if you zoom in on a folder (or city) you see individual files (or roads)
<thorwil> aantn: if you want to do anything in the area of zooming interfaces, do a little research. there is huge pile of work about this in the hci field
<_MMA_> thorwil: Yeah, I should have the templates finished and a call for submissions for a base set of 5 icons.
<_MMA_> So it will be just waiting on submissions at that point.
<_MMA_> s/5/6
<aantn> thorwil: I didn't know that
<DannyKing> hello
<aantn> thorwil: I'll definitely look into it
<thorwil> hi DannyKing
<thorwil> aantn: "zooming interface" should be a good search term
<Nece228> thorwil: isnt this a good explanations?
<aantn> thorwil: yeah, I'll begin googling
<Nece228> thorwil: i mean which has better performance
<thorwil> Nece228: i think you already had a chat with Cimi about that. if he can't give you a satisfying answer, nobody here can
<aantn> thorwil: also, can I display the mockup from your blog in a post; it'll link right back to you
<Nece228> thorwil: i just wanna test results
<thorwil> aantn: sure. most of my creations can be assumed to only require attribution
<aantn> thorwil: ok
<thorwil> Nece228: ok. you can be quite sure by now that nobody here has test results. also, when i asked if you notice a difference, you said no. if a user doesn't fell a difference, it doen't matter
<Nece228> thorwil: why not? maybe at some things i can see results?
<_MMA_> Nece228: thorwil knows what he's talking about. Take him at his word.
<thorwil> Nece228: because a difference nobody perceives could as well not exist
<Nece228> why theres no christian edition but theres muslim edition themes?
<thorwil> Nece228: anyway, if you can't find benchmarks via google, you have to do them yourself. case closed
<aantn> Nece228: there is a muslim edition ubuntu
<_MMA_> Nece228: Because the CE guys haven't bothered to get their packages *in* the repos.
<thorwil> for christian themes, no images had to be removed!!
<aantn> but afaik, there's no Jewish Edition :(
<_MMA_> aantn: Oh there was/is talk about it. ;)
<aantn> _MMA_: really?
<aantn> heh :)
<Nece228> oh man if theyre gonna leave current human murrine theme in ibex i will cry
<_MMA_> Yep. I think I shot that down pretty quick though.
 * _MMA_ hands Nece228 a tissue. Oh well.
<Nece228> and ill say: oh man ubuntu is doing same way as windwos
<DannyKing> I'm working on a wooden icon theme, just for fun. Anyone want to see the early prototype? http://flickr.com/photos/danny-king/2866286095/
<thorwil> DannyKing: seems a bit stiff and grainy ;)
<_MMA_> Nece228: *sigh* This really isn't the place to complain. We've heard it all before. If you can offer solutions, we really don't care to hear the opinion.
<Nece228> so ubuntu 8.10 will not have brand new theme, but it will have tweaked theme?
<Nece228> _MMA_ dont try to escape from true
<_MMA_> Nece228: True for you. It's an opinion we don't care to hear for the 1000th time.
<_MMA_> DannyKing: I've seen it on GNOME-Look. I agree with some of the comments there about some things being hard to see at smaller resolutions. I do think it's a fun idea though.
<Nece228> _MMA_ oh yeah? first ubuntu hardy theme was deffered, but now they are still too lazy to create new theme, they even dont have new icons
<DannyKing> _MMA_: are you sure it was gnome look? I've not submitted it there. It's been on inkscapeforum.com though. thanks :)
<popey> _MMA_: is it like this all the time in here? :(
<thorwil> Nece228: please go and read https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/KyudoGuidelines/Mindset. don't annoy productive people who actually _do_ stuff
<_MMA_> popey: Only with people who are new, young and can't speak English well.
<_MMA_> DannyKing: Oh hell! That was it. :P Duh.
<thorwil> oh, those who can, can be as annoying
<Nece228> _MMA_ hmm are you sure that beta will have new theme and icons?
<_MMA_> It will not. Only tweaks. A new wallpaper at the least.
<Nece228> _MMA_ "There's a lack of skilled and trained artists and designers in the Free Software world"
<Nece228> _MMA_ "i didnt know that, sorry
<Nece228> _MMA_ but theres many ideas, why they dont use one of that?
<_MMA_> DannyKing: Sorry. I interact with so many people I forgot you from Inkscape. :)
<DannyKing> Don't worry, I'm pretty new to the chanel :)
<DannyKing> channel *
<_MMA_> I knew the name, just not where from. Though it was only a couple of days ago. :)
<_MMA_> DannyKing: You might be interested in this: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/BreatheIconSet
<_MMA_> Start of a new effort.
<DannyKing> Thanks, I'll take a look
<DannyKing> That looks really interesting, thanks :)
<Nece228> _MMA_ but i think that ubuntu will lose many users
<Nece228> world is getting worse and worse
<thorwil> DannyKing: your monitor and tablet images are rather impressive. ubuntu-art is in dire need of skill such as yours
<thorwil> http://flickr.com/photos/danny-king/2215444392/in/photostream/
<thorwil> http://flickr.com/photos/danny-king/2215422492/in/photostream/
<DannyKing> Thanks, very kind words :) It's just a hobby really, but I'm very interested in contributing to ubuntu if I can find the time. (I'm starting university in 10 days so I'm unsure of my workload)
<DannyKing> But hopefully I'll get a theme done soon and I'll release it with a free licence
<_MMA_> DannyKing: Sure. Stick around. Please join our mailing list. Most official things are done there.
<thorwil> DannyKing: in that case, i have to recommend to you to wait until things have settled in for you there ;)
<DannyKing> Will do :)
<_MMA_> DannyKing: The Breathe icon set should fit limited schedules well and icons can be bite-sized. And the set will take some time to complete. We're in no rush.
<DannyKing> Great, sounds fun
<_MMA_> Should be. I'll have an official "call for help" soon for these icons. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/BreatheIconSet/Icons I gotta wrap up a couple of technicals 1st.
<DannyKing> I really like that CD icon
<DannyKing> Fantastic colours
<_MMA_> We'll focus on a group of them at a time, but that should not limit what anyone wants to tackle. Just gives a bit of focus.
<_MMA_> DannyKing: Well, do a bit of reading. Those are from an existing set we're trying to mix.
<_MMA_> Oxygen (KDE set) with Ubuntu's Human.
<DannyKing> Great. I'm definitely interested in helping out. I'm sure I'll have the time in a month or so
<_MMA_> cool
<DannyKing> I've gotta go, nice chatting to you all
<_MMA_> later
 * DannyKing is afk
<Nece228> i dont understand some things
<thorwil> same here
<Nece228> murrine has glass look, but you can do absolutely same with clearlooks engine
<Nece228> *absolutely same look
<_MMA_> Nece228: Asking a question is a better way to get an answer.
<Nece228> so why theres murrine?
<Nece228> if you can have absolutely same thing with other engines
<_MMA_> Nece228: Cimi is the author of Murrine and maintainer of Clearlooks. If he has time, he can reply.
<Nece228> but i understand why theres developing version murrine transparency
<Nece228> because it will be transparent
<Nece228> i think ubuntu 8.10 should have more graphic
<Nece228> more colors, everythink should be filled
<Nece228> but i should say that human murrine looks very nice, its a great theme but wrong theme
<_MMA_> Nece228: We all eagerly await you contribution to the future look and feel of Ubuntu. Look to the topic for how to get involved.
<Nece228> when everythink will be filled, then you can say WOW!
<Nece228> :P
<thorwil> Nece228: how old are you?
<Nece228> is this very important?
<thorwil> yes
<Nece228> thorwil: why you need to care about this?
<thorwil> Nece228: because you sound and argue like a 12 year old
<Nece228> thorwil: maybe but im not 12 years old
<_MMA_> Nece228: Because you opinions show a lack of experience often associated with age.
<Nece228> yeah, i know that i suck and im acting like a kid
<Nece228> but im not
<thorwil> welcome rsc-
<rsc-> hey thorwil.
<Nece228> thorwil: is this a good answer?
<rsc-> whats going on? :)
<thorwil> Nece228: only if you try to behave better now
<_MMA_> rsc-: Babysitting. :)
<thorwil> rsc-: writing forum posts
<rsc-> babysitting what?
<Nece228> thorwil: yeah sure, sometimes i just suck so you should ignore these posts
<thorwil> rsc-: did you see that _MMA_ will be busy otherwise soon, for 5 weeks?
<_MMA_> Nece228: Or I can kick/ban you instead? :)
<rsc-> ah, yeah.
<Nece228> _MMA_ you can ban me for a day
<Nece228> _MMA_ :)
<_MMA_> Nece228: It would be best if you exercise self control.
<_MMA_> thorwil: So you were fine with the Breathe template as-is?
<Cimi> _MMA_, yes
<thorwil> rsc-: i'm wondering if we should specifically search for free software using talent, especially with Inkscape, make compliments and invite people
<_MMA_> Cimi: Boooooooooo on you. :(
<thorwil> rsc-: though this of course only after knowing a bit better how things go
 * _MMA_ kicks Cimi in the butt and runs.
<thorwil> _MMA_: i think you still need to update the text to explain how it works now
<Cimi> :)
<_MMA_> :)
<_MMA_> thorwil: Ok. But the color swatches are fine?
<Cimi> believe in me, they works better. Upgrade to the latest svn and adjust the lighborder ratio
<rsc-> thorwil, i.e., target Inkscape/Gimp/Blender artists?
<rsc-> yeah, why not. :)
<Cimi> you won't have the blur but it will look more consistent
 * Cimi is away, bb in a hour
<rsc-> thorwil, i'm thinking there must be some sort of incentive for people to participate.
<thorwil> _MMA_: i guess. if i actually start to work on the set, things might develop differently ... :)
<rsc-> especially with "no default themes" out of the window.
<rsc-> most people contribute to FLOSS projects because they use it, and want to improve something they don't like (just an assumption here).
<_MMA_> thorwil: Well once we start to generate work it will become increasingly hard to make changes. I'll update the text. and make the "call for help" announcement.
<thorwil> rsc-: a little sweet talk, being asked personally ... maybe also the idea of being part of an elite
<thorwil> rsc-: though the later could also hurt us
<rsc-> haha, there's an idea.
<_MMA_> DannyKing: Looking through your screenshots, Are you using Ubuntu Studio, or just the theme? (a question for when you return)
<rsc-> I think the best time to recruit is when there's some initial groundwork done that defines the direction.
<thorwil> rsc-: agreed
<thorwil> _MMA_: yes. i bet we will need iterations, anyway
<_MMA_> thorwil: Sure. I'm just trying to take care of what I can now. You know.
<rsc-> thorwil, whatcha think will have to be done first?
<thorwil> rsc-: if this was a project with students, i would perhaps ask them to create mood pictures about ubuntu. an to create portraits of memebers of our target audience
<rsc-> my idea would be a wallpaper or some slightly-unrelated artwork (in that example, a wallpaper will not directly define the desktop theme, the packaging of the ubuntu cd, whatever)
<rsc-> there, yeah. eactly. :)
<rsc-> something to set the mood, but not necessarily a part of the actual output.
<rsc-> btw, here's some silly concept I was working at awhile ago: http://dump.ambiescent.com/i/bamboo.png (no specific direction, just "lets try some junk out and see if something isnpiring can come out of it")
<rsc-> oopsie, http://dump.ambiescent.com/i/bamboo.jpg
<thorwil> rsc-: maybe we should roughly pre-define the message and then indeed ask for moods and portraits. of course i'm worried about low participation
<rsc-> :P of course, participation
<rsc-> I would say, recruit with bite-sized tasks.
<rsc-> i.e., not "come and be a part of the collosal project kyudo", but "come and create mood portraits with us"
<_MMA_> rsc-: Slick. That might actually be pretty close to possible.
<rsc-> _MMA_, a little silly-looking though.
<rsc-> :)
<thorwil> rsc-: bamboo might have quite much of what we will be looking for :)
 * thorwil -> dinner
<rsc-> thorwil, yeah, but maybe not that overbearingly woody (with wood grain all over the gtk!)
<rsc-> :)
<_MMA_> rsc-: I don't think so actually. Maybe a different choice for wood textures, but has a nice feel overall.
<_MMA_> rsc-: Maybe just remove the texture on what would be the toolbar icons background.
<rsc-> hehe, thanks.
<rsc-> I was also thinking maybe replace the wood with something like metal, inspired by the look of softsynth programs (mac/win/vst/etc). something for ubuntu studio, perhaps. :)
<_MMA_> Possible. The direction is open for Jaunty. But I fear the metal thing would draw a direct comparison to Mac.
<rsc-> was thinking more along the lines of http://www.harmony-central.com/Synth/Data/Propellerhead/Docs/ReBirth-RB-338/ReBirth.jpg
<rsc-> ;)
<rsc-> but i dont know. just ideas for now :)
<_MMA_> rsc-: I love the bamboo wallpaper you have. I could see this as inspiration for our communities effort for Jaunty.
<rsc-> _MMA_, oh yeah. I thought so too when I found it.
<_MMA_> rsc-: How big is the wallpaper and is it under a free license?
<_MMA_> CC or something.
<Nece228> gta san andreas lags with wine, i disabled pixel shade but the problem didnt gone, my video card is radeon 9600 pro 256 im using fglrx. in windows everythinks fine
<_MMA_> Nece228: Wrong channel?
<Nece228> _MMA_ im sorry i did a mistake
<Nece228> _MMA_ i wanted to paste it to winehq lol
<rsc-> _MMA_, its 4.5mb. I got it from a wallpack from DA and i recolored it, hold on
<_MMA_> rsc-: Sure.
<_MMA_> Cimi: My slight spacing between tabs has gone as well. Intentional?
 * _MMA_ is around but must go make lunch.
<DannyKing> _MMA_: On that screenshot I'm running Ubuntu (vanilla) hardy with the studio theme, although I run studio on my laptop
<rsc-> _MMA_, I think it's from here: www.deviantart.com/deviation/90409241
<rsc-> if not there, then one of her other submissions.
<rsc-> not sure on the licensing details, though
<_MMA_> DannyKing: Cool. It's always nice to see it being used. I'm sure Studio has given me some gray. :)
<rsc-> _MMA_, http://customize.org/screenshots/57766
<rsc-> here's another take on the wood grain idea.
<_MMA_> rsc-: Looks like the author has retained the rights. Ill look further in 10 mins or so.
<_MMA_> brb
<rsc-> what do you need the open license for?
<rsc-> it's not like it'll be a wallpaper.
<rsc-> i mean, submitted as a community wallpaper
<rsc-> ...if the intent is just to inspire the mood. :)
<rsc-> anyway, maybe it's time we setup our own wiki for the effort.
<Cimi> _MMA_, this is not specified by murrine, but from the gtkrc
<Cimi> anyway firefox overrides the gtkrc removing the spacing
<Cimi> taboverlap is the int value
<Cimi> GtkNotebook:: taboverlap =
<Cimi> IIRC
<_MMA_> Cimi: On FF sure, I see this in Pidgin. The spacing between tabs has changed, I think I had it set to 1px. Ill look again in a sec. Maybe Im missing something.
<_MMA_> rsc-: Inspiration sure. It's a nice wallpaper and we *might* want to use it. :) We can always make our own I guess.
<_MMA_> rsc-: And Ive seen the customize.org pic. Looks nice. I like the softer look to the GTK theme.
<_MMA_> rsc-: Is the GTK/Metacity real?
<rsc-> _MMA_, any thoughts on getting Kyudo's own wiki (or something similar)? :)
<_MMA_> rsc-: As this is still an effort within the Ubuntu community, where it is is fine.
<_MMA_> Or did you mean something else?
<rsc-> _MMA_, well, would it be fine to start 50+ new pages for the effort on the ubuntu wiki?
<_MMA_> For?
<rsc-> I mean, for Kyudo
<_MMA_> But for what aspects of it?
<rsc-> well, as it grows, there's gotta be some repository for people to submit their entries and such.
<_MMA_> Generally, there's nothing we cant have alot of pages. I jsut cant think why we would need to have 'em.
<rsc-> okay
<_MMA_> Kyudo is just guidelines.
<rsc-> mm, alright.
<rsc-> hehe, sorry, i'm not sure on the structure of the wiki yet.
<_MMA_> np
<rsc-> for a moment there I thought the /Artwork area is just for posting artworks for the releases, etc
<_MMA_> Any effort we as a community rallies around will simply use them. The effort will get it's own page. Like: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/BambooTheme or something.
<rsc-> oh, alright
<_MMA_> But this is only for focused efforts. Anyone is still free to create however they like.
<rsc-> okay.
<thorwil> _MMA_, rsc- Kyudo is not meant to be just guidelines from my site. it should flow into process into results
<thorwil> so there could be artwork subpages there.
<thorwil> rsc-: the only reasons for a standalone wiki i can think of is a nice url and custom theme. not worth the trouble, cost and disassociation from ubuntu
<thorwil> rsc-: even for inspirational material, we better have the right to distribute ...
<Cimi> _MMA_, I haven't changed anything in the code to justify your issue
<Cimi> it could just be a setting inside the gtkrc
<rsc-> thorwil, so how soon can we see the first volley for Kyudo?
<rsc-> i.e., an invitation for the community to participate with some visuals
<thorwil> rsc-: i am thinking about doing that right now :)
<rsc-> lovely :)
<thorwil> rsc-: you may make that announcment, too, if you like ^^
<Nece228> what do you think this mockup? http://www.linuxloop.com/news/2008/06/28/interesting-early-artwork-for-intrepid-ibex/
<rsc-> thorwil, haha im not sure what to announce :)
<Nece228> i like first one theme
<rsc-> nece: "Early"? more like "late" :P
<rsc-> kidding
<Nece228> its colorful, simple, and it looks modern
<rsc-> oh, they are early
<rsc-> im personally not a big fan of any of the latter 3.
<Nece228> rsc- well its pretty old mockup but i think its great
<Nece228> but still i think gelatin theme would be best choice
<rsc-> Kith Intrepid was made into Didymous, if i remember right
<thorwil> rsc-: i think i will ask for mood boards and paintings about what ubuntu means and the associated feeling. plus portraits of target audience members.
<rsc-> i wasn't really sure about the color. perhaps it's an assumption based on my tastes, but it seems like a color that people would want to change right away
<rsc-> thorwil, ah. I think you're looking for personas.
<rsc-> while I have a bit of a marketing background, I'm still clueless as to how to draw the persona for the target audience. bummer
<thorwil> rsc-: i considered to set some size, but maybe i better leave that open, excpet saying that it should be reasonable for online viewing
<thorwil> rsc-: i do know the term personas and yes. now if i should use that term now? rather not :)
<rsc-> why not? :) haha
<rsc-> too much marketing stigma associated with it?
<thorwil> ok then, term and explanation
<rsc-> but anyway, I've worked with making some of these http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/8031/screenshot1uc8.png but I'm *so* not sure on how to make one for Ubuntu (sigh)
<rsc-> but either way, there must be *some* way to describe the audience.
<rsc-> whether with that sort of illustration or not.
<thorwil> rsc-: this is kinda fitting http://www.lifeclever.com/5-reasons-to-design-with-mood-boards/
<rsc-> and I'm afraid of ending up with "Tim is a 22 year old guy with a job as GeekSquad living in his mother's basement" :p
<thorwil> rsc-: i had more artistic takes in mind, not text. visual ideas about people with environment and what they do and like
<rsc-> http://www.flickr.com/groups/inspirationboards/pool/ that's nice.
<rsc-> thorwil, that's nice.
<rsc-> i'd be very curious as to how that can turn out. :)
<thorwil> rsc-: i have to admit that i have no clue how to get at that myself. but i can pretend that i hold it back to not set a direction or to intimidate others ;)
<rsc-> haha.
<rsc-> anyway, with the personas example awhile ago, I just sparked a little thought for one persona:
<rsc-> college student in early 20s / uses computer in his dorm to do his school paper work, surf the 'net / his laptop doubles has his entertainment center, he watches movies with it / needs to be around a lot, with many of his fellow students looking at his PC wherever he is
<rsc-> I just thought of that now, it sorta fits the guidelines you defined in the  Foundation document.
<thorwil> rsc-: yes. actually ubuntu should have personas
<rsc-> how about a personas brainstorming page?
<thorwil> rsc-: however, i have a feeling that they would carry quite a bit that does nothing for us right now :)
<thorwil> rsc-: i'd be fine with that
<rsc-> hehe, okay.
<rsc-> somethign like Artwork/KyudoGuidelines/Personas ? (or /Audience)
<thorwil> rsc-: yes, no  :)
<rsc-> or would that be stepping on your territory? :)
<rsc-> cool.
<thorwil> rsc-: no. i need some people to take territory away! ;)
<_MMA_> #rockbox
<_MMA_> gah
<rsc-> on an artwork-unrelated bit, will an iPod Touch be compatible with libgpod and the apps that use it? :P I'm thinking of getting one :p
<thorwil> rsc-: so far this has been my baby, but it can't stay that way if it shall succeed. at some point it must be possible that i can pull back without things stopping. i do expect that to take months, though
<rsc-> okay.
<thorwil> rsc-: so Artwork/KyudoGuidelines/Personas is fine. add a link to the main page if you do that
<Cimi> thorwil, your mockup could be implemented in murrine quite easily
<rsc-> ooh what mockup?
<rsc-> i wanna see
<rsc-> :)
<Cimi> even though I'm not in love with everything
<thorwil> Cimi: hmm? which mockup?
<Cimi> thorwil, something you posted days ago
 * Cimi dinner
<thorwil> Cimi: the only theme mockup i posted myself here is http://thorwil.files.wordpress.com/2007/09/ubuntu_theme_32.jpg
<Cimi> thorwil, that one
<thorwil> except for all the changes to Nautilus, then :)
<Cimi> I mean buttons and similar
<thorwil> ok
<rsc-> Cimi, tabs?
<Cimi> not centered
<rsc-> those are some nice looking tabs.
<rsc-> oh.
<rsc-> bummer.
<rsc-> :)
<Cimi> but they works
<rsc-> what about the checkboxes?
<thorwil> rsc-: the idea behind those checkboxes was to make them look less like buttons / widgets by themselves, to improve the connection to the label
<thorwil> rsc-: because the whole label is used as target area, but people tend to aim at that little part
<rsc-> thorwil, would it be possible without pixmaps? :)
<thorwil> later on spawned a different take on these widgets
<thorwil> rsc-: pixmaps or custom code, i would think
<thorwil> rsc-: pixmaps or custom code, i would think (just in case you missed that)
<Nece228> ubuntu ibex should have these icons
<Nece228> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Intrepid/Intrepid_Ibex_Icons_-_Art_Team
<thorwil> oh wow, we now have a "new design still not implemented" bug in LP
<rsc-> thorwil, cute. link :)
<thorwil> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/bugs/272832
<_MMA_> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/human-theme/+bug/272832
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 272832 in human-theme "new design still not implemented" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<rsc-> nvm. found it
<rsc-> oh there it is
 * _MMA_ was just looking as well.
<Nece228> oh man why i dont know so much :/
<_MMA_> Nece228: Because you don't ask questions 1st. ;)
<rsc-> Nece228, they're not ready for the new release, unfortunately.
<Nece228> _MMA_ i dont have much time for questions
<_MMA_> Nece228: Then you are doomed to be uninformed,
<Nece228> so newhuman will be default
<rsc-> no, human will be
<kwwii> you don't know that for certain, things can still change
<kwwii> but I doubt it
<thorwil> _MMA_, kwwii: any input regading a call for mood boards / drawing and persona portraits?
<Nece228> i have to go sleep
<Nece228> tommorow hard day
<Nece228> good night
<kwwii> thorwil: not as such
<_MMA_> Thank Jeebus. Damn kids.
<_MMA_> (in my best old cranky man voice)
 * thorwil tries voodoo to change Nece's timezone to one where he will sleep when thorwil's here
<_MMA_> thorwil: I'm sorry. I'm still wrapping my head around the concept as I deal with my own stuff here.
<thorwil> _MMA_: np. just trying to keep you in :)
<_MMA_> :)
<rsc-> who's nece anyway
<rsc-> ?
<rsc-> and why's he being such a sourpuss?
<thorwil> rsc-: how would we know?
<rsc-> heh :)
<zniavre> hello can i ask a critic about a gdm try  (im quite sure you can ) ?  :-D
<thorwil> zniavre: don't ask to ask, just ask, please :)
<zniavre> http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/187396/screenshot12.png    i just asked  to show ...
<thorwil> zniavre: the symbols on the right, power-off and reboot are reasonably clear (for a technical audience), but what is the arrow?
<zniavre> session options
<thorwil> zniavre: the 3d circle of friends seems unnecessary. its perspective works against the impression of a smooth rounded surface below it
<_MMA_> zniavre: It's interesting. I wouldn't use the wood background if you plan to make this public. There's no license to it and the source author has been disputed.
 * _MMA_ agrees with thorwil's last post.
<zniavre> ok i see for the logo's
<thorwil> zniavre: the strong orange pulls attention to the sides, but that's not the important part. also, color perspective works against you, as if you jsut place orange and blue next to each other, the orange will seem to stand in front of the blue
<thorwil> zniavre: the basic shapes and the idea of penetration do have potential
<zniavre> thank you i will try to improve it if i can
<thorwil> zniavre: np. i thank you for asking :)
<zniavre> this license on background is difficult for me to understand
<thorwil> zniavre: if you are not told otherwise by the author or rights-holder of a work, you do not have the right/permission to redistribute it
<zniavre> even resized ?
<zniavre> silly question forget it
<zniavre> :o)
<thorwil> doesn't matter. there's a grey area in thumbnailing like google does it
<_MMA_> I really don't know why someone hasn't just made a new one. It would be easy enough to do.
<zniavre> wich license should be used to be as free as possible?
<zniavre> if someone want to make another wood wall
<thorwil> zniavre: freeest of all is public domain, it means giving up all rights / granting all right to everyone
<_MMA_> zniavre: Public Domain I guess?
<zniavre> ok  thank you
<thorwil> zniavre: then if you want to be given credit, you can use Creative Commons Attribution
<thorwil> rsc-: just send out the mail. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/KyudoGuidelines/Portraits  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/KyudoGuidelines/Mood
<thorwil> idiotic thread of the day: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=929828
<thorwil> must be our friend Nece-something
<_MMA_> No doubt.
<thorwil> how long until troll article on digg? ^^
 * _MMA_ shrugs.
<rsc-> sigh
<rsc-> i can see that thread growing to have a lot of whiners
<thorwil> yeah. they can whine to each other, though :)
<_MMA_> thorwil: Though not perfect, this: http://mma.users.ubuntustudio.org/floor_gray.png from this: http://www.hometownimprovements.net/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/DSCF1354.JPG
<_MMA_> Should be altered and obscure enough to not matter
<_MMA_> Just a quicky in any case.
<thorwil> _MMA_: i would have to underline the not perfect, but i'm not hot on that wood floor thing, anyway ;)
<_MMA_> I'm just thinking of making a free replacement all the kids can use . ;)
<thorwil> _MMA_: you're too kind :)
<_MMA_> I tend to like specific, bite-sized things I can quickly tackle.
<thorwil> as do i, as you can clearly see from my latest undertakings ;)
<rsc-> _MMA_: http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/9936/bg2el1.jpg
<rsc-> like that?
<rsc-> :p
<rsc-> oh wait
<rsc-> that is the same thing
<rsc-> oops.
<rsc-> err
<rsc-> damn, nevermind
<_MMA_> ;)
<thorwil> rsc-: lost a color channel? :)
<_MMA_> thorwil: In the end Ill most likely make something up in SVG and put it out there.
<rsc-> thorwil, i dont kow, i just found it somewhere :)
<thorwil> i wonder if i should add some more help on the Portrait and Mood pages, but i'll be gone in a few minutes
<thorwil> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=5855162#post5855162
 * thorwil waves to aantn 
<thorwil> pingback pingpong
<aantn> hey thorwil!
<rsc-> thorwil, yeah, i think it needs a little more explanation.
<rsc-> im not sure everyone knows what a mood board is.
<rsc-> and how it can be useful
<thorwil> rsc-: would be glad if you could jump in there
<rsc-> unfortunately ive gotta go as well
<rsc-> :)
<rsc-> 4am here
<thorwil> heh
<thorwil> good night! :)
<kwwii> _MMA_: you will be happy to know that I am working on the human icon theme atm and just touched up your version of the human-computer icon
<kwwii> I will now include it...thanks for your contribution :-)
<_MMA_> :D
<_MMA_> I contribute!!
<kwwii> I will put your name in the authors file :D now you are famous!
<kwwii> now that you are a real member of the team, take a look at the bug list, it is quite long :-)
<_MMA_> Free software rockstar.
<rsc-> LOL
 * _MMA_ heads off for a bit to play with his kids.
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-09-26
<PRGUY85> hey how can one help on kyudo
<DannyKing> Has anyone used a trackball mouse for artwork? Are they more accurate / easier to use than normal mice?
<_MMA_> DannyKing: I have a trackball with no issue. But I also have a Wacom tablet. I guess it's all what you get used to.
<DannyKing> I have a wacom too and I love it, I was just wandering if it was worth getting a trackball too. None of the sub Â£50/$100 models seem to have a third button though
<DannyKing> I spent a few hours reading the archives of the mailing list about the breathe theme
<DannyKing> Sounds like a really good project :)
<_MMA_> DannyKing: Awesome. We'd love to have you aboard.
<Cimi> DannyKing, I have one
<DannyKing> I'll lurk in the mailing list and in here for a month or so, to get a feel for it all and then hopefully I'll be able to help out with the icons :)
<DannyKing> Cimi: Would you say it's worth buying one if I have a wacom tablet too?
<Cimi> no, lie with the mouse and the wacom
<DannyKing> Great, thanks :)
<_MMA_> DannyKing: I should have it ready to start by this weekend. We'll be starting with a base set of 6 icons and working from there.
<Cimi> _MMA_, I hope breathe would not replace tango-based icon themes in gnome, but will replace just oxgen , isn't it?
<_MMA_> kwwii: You wanna send me your changes to the Breathe folder?
<DannyKing> Great - has a colour palette been worked out?
<_MMA_> Cimi: It's just for Ubuntu.
<Cimi> _MMA_, you'll have inconsistent look
<Cimi> human is not consistent though
<_MMA_> Cimi: We know what we're doing. ;)
<DannyKing> Oops, running late for a client - back in a while
<Cimi> I'm just worried about mixing oxygen and tango icons
<_MMA_> Cimi: That's not what we're doing.
<Cimi> _MMA_, isn't breathe using oxygen guidelines?
<_MMA_> Cimi: No. Just FreeDesktop naming guidelines.
<Cimi> with oxygen I mean the style
<Cimi> not the namings
<Cimi> also gnome icon theme 2.24 is following the freedesktop naming guidelins IIRC
<_MMA_> Cimi: *Kinda* using the style. Just a bit. We will try to find our own somewhat but will be heavily Oxygen influenced. Ken will keep us in line with that. We also might have some of those guys help.
<Cimi> ok
<Cimi> please be influenced by tango guidelins otherwise an inconsistent gnome will appear to our eyes ;)
<_MMA_> No. That means heavy outlines on all the icons like Tango.
<Cimi> if you want a consistent look, that is.
<_MMA_> And the styles *don't* have to fit together. In the end it will show us what we still have to work on.
<darkmatter> lol Cimi, GNOME is already inconsistent, I don't think anyone will notice :P
<Cimi> darkmatter, 2.24 is much more consistent than 2.22
<darkmatter> barely ;P
<Cimi> but yeah, with human icons is actually a pain
<Cimi> if you use the default gnome icon theme is consistent
<_MMA_> Oxygen and GNOME don't fit together so its a safe bet Breathe won't either.
<Cimi> so I can argue that it is a waste of time?
<_MMA_> Cimi: You can argue your *opinion* all you want. ;)
<Cimi> you told me ;)
<darkmatter> Cimi:  matching icons and decent background do not equal consistent when the ui needs serious surgery. but yeah... at least its an improvement
<Cimi> _MMA_> Oxygen and GNOME don't fit together so its a safe bet Breathe won't either.
<_MMA_> Cimi: You think they have to. We don't. Simple.
<_MMA_> The end game is having a complete set for Ubuntu. Not GNOME.
<Cimi> If you're working hard on an icon theme that won't be consistent and match the overall look why I can't argue it is a waste of time?
<Cimi> ok
<Cimi> so you're going to replace every icon application with a breath-like new one?
<_MMA_> Eventually. That's the plan.
<_MMA_> But we don't really have to replace upstream app icons. Like Inkscape and what not.
<_MMA_> If you wanna get into that, that's already an inconsistent mess.
<Cimi> _MMA_, in this case it is not a waste of time, since you'll have consistent look, but it will be a HARD work
<_MMA_> And in the end, that's their branding. It can look like what they want.
<Cimi> and *long*
<darkmatter> I wouldn't call it hard, just time consuming
<_MMA_> I never said I was gonna have it done in a week. :)
<_MMA_> bbs. Gotta make breakfast.
<Cimi> gotta have lunch
<Cimi> ;)
<thorwil> great. a little trolling about a "brand new theme" not happening and suddenly everyone finds their voice
<thorwil> _MMA_: but at least this sounds good http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=5857993&postcount=4
<_MMA_> It's the way of things.
<_MMA_> thorwil: Yeah. That does sound promising.
<thorwil> _MMA_: have a link for him at hand?
<_MMA_> Not off hand. I'd have to search.
<_MMA_> thorwil: And I tinkered a little more with the floor image. http://mma.users.ubuntustudio.org/floor_gray.png
<_MMA_> I gotta even out the tone. I can't get it right with adjusting the curves.
<thorwil> _MMA_: i told you that it is not that easy ;)
<_MMA_> thorwil: Ok. So what text in the template do you think needs to be clearer? Keep in mind that there will be very few people that will see this and they will most likely be capable enough to get it. Or at least after asking once be able to understand. :)
<thorwil> _MMA_: the text has to say how the filenames come to be, if it shall be of any use
<_MMA_> thorwil: Well, thing is, I'll be inputting that. As I will be adding all the Oxygen images to a template and uploading to BZR.
<_MMA_> So once I set up that base, there should be no reason for anyone to touch that.
<_MMA_> Hell. I might just yank the text from the icon.SVGs. I'm just not sure it will be of use.
<_MMA_> Ill try it with the 1st round of icons and see how it goes.
<thorwil> _MMA_: just have the explanation available close to the download
<_MMA_> Will be easy to add back.
<_MMA_> Sure.
<_MMA_> I'll leave it in the template though.
<_MMA_> kwwii: ping
<kwwii> _MMA_: hey man
 * kwwii had a *long* night
<kwwii> but made 3 icons :-)
<_MMA_> Cool.
<_MMA_> What sizes?
<kwwii> some 16x16 and a couple 128x128 as well as two 48x48
<_MMA_> kwwii: For Breathe?
<kwwii> _MMA_: nope, for Intrepid bugs
<_MMA_> :(
<_MMA_> I thought you mentioned tinkering with the folder icon KenV did?
<DannyKing> _MMA_:  Can I PM you?
<_MMA_> Sure
<thorwil> lol, my request for mood boards on the community cafe is on page 4 now, with a single silly reply
<_MMA_> thorwil: I know. I know. It's enough to make people who really work on stuff give up.
<_MMA_> kwwii: oi!
<kwwii> man, don't screeam so loud
<darkmatter> thorwil: link?
<_MMA_> :P
<thorwil> darkmatter: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=930022
<_MMA_> kwwii: SO when will you be able to get me a folder revision and you idea of a new base mime icon?
<kwwii> not sure, really busy getting stuff done for the beta
<kwwii> they gave me a list
<darkmatter> thorwil: lol.. that's an absolutely fabulous idea. community spirit+fun all packed in the same scrumptious muffin! You'd think it would actually warrant an actual response
 * _MMA_ can't remember how many times he's done the same and got nothing. People (the kids) only want to bitch. (generally)
<_MMA_> kwwii: At least you can focus with a list. :) But as far as Breathe, ok. I'll be updating the files that are there and calling for the start of work on the base set today/tomorrow.
<thorwil> darkmatter: heh, yes. i thought it would have a chance. i guess to possibility of productivity dragged it down ;)
<_MMA_> thorwil: And though it's the right way to go about it, I think it's above alot of people's head unfortunately. :(
<darkmatter> _MMA_: indeed. tis the way of GNU. whine, bitch, and moan about how your free-ride isn't meeting your exacting specifications, and do absolutely jack-shit to even attempt to give an explaination of what you would like to see. YAY FOR PROGRESS!
<_MMA_> \m/
<_MMA_> So because kwwii can't be bothered to show me (kidding, kidding) lemmie poll the people here. kwwii would like to get away from the "curled edge" file icons.
<_MMA_> Image: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~breathe-dev/breathe-icon-set/trunk/download/head:/empty.png-20080922034016-sdtei4bmt1gjvp8r-2/empty.png?file_id=rendered-20080904180602-4kcena7h7l22ot23-4
<_MMA_> What would you guys like to see?
<_MMA_> Or look at at the bottom here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/BreatheIconSet/Icons
<thorwil> _MMA_: no curl is worth a try
<thorwil> no silly photoshoppy effects on our icons!!!
<thorwil> well, except maybe lens flares!
<_MMA_> :)
<DannyKing> I'd like to see a move away from gloss
<thorwil> DannyKing: welcome in the club
<_MMA_> thorwil: You wanna give a the base file image a go?
<darkmatter> kill the curl and using bold, rainbow hued lettering stencil "I R FILEZ!!!111!!!" on it
<thorwil> _MMA_: not before the folder and perhaps one of the others
<_MMA_> DannyKing: We will be. Where it makes sense. The Oxygen set does have some but I think there is more a reason now for it. In that the real objects that were drawn do.
<DannyKing> What about a more realistic page - with imperfections (like any piece of paper on your desk right now)
<_MMA_> Oxygen is nothing like Chrystal thank goodness.
<darkmatter> DannyKing: ala Leopard but without the aged look? ;P
<DannyKing> Yeah, I guess so, that sounds nice :)
<_MMA_> DannyKing: Anyone is free to take a stab at it.
 * thorwil has to clean the room
<_MMA_> thorwil: Well the 6 on that page will be the start so I'm not so sure the order matters. Though I do agree the folders will set the tone. I think it will stay close to the feel it has now though.  kwwii has changes in mind.
<_MMA_> We surely have to at least fix the perspective on the CD-ROM disk. But I'd rather new drives.
<_MMA_> And just from those 6 icons there you can see inconsistent shadows.
<DannyKing> Is there a defined style guide that I've not managed to find on the wiki or mailing list? (e.g. that defines, viewpoint, light source, colour?)
<darkmatter> actually, something similar too http://www.istartedsomething.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/09/journal.jpg minus the curl would be nice (using the breathe palette of course)
<DannyKing> viewpoint = perspective
<DannyKing> darkmatter: I agree
<DannyKing> Is that an Apple icon?
<_MMA_> DannyKing: For the moment, we're going to use the ones in the Oxygen base. But we are damn sure we will find many places where even their set has mistakes. We will fix those.
<DannyKing> Okay, thanks
<_MMA_> DannyKing: Color will be included in the source SVGs. It will probably be a good idea to be familiar with the current Human set as we are mixing it with the Oxygen set.
<DannyKing> Okay, I'll take a look
<darkmatter> DannyKing: umm.. I cant remember.. it's either Leopard or a Vista extra.
<darkmatter> But the point is, if you copy the general 'feel', even flat/unlined, an icon designed like that is clearly representative of a doc/file
<DannyKing> I think the paper icons might look better if they had the same angle as the journal
<_MMA_> I like the way it kinda has that fiber look to the paper.
<DannyKing> Or at least appears to be leaning on something rather than just... flat the desk
<DannyKing> Yes me too
<darkmatter> _MMA_: that's actually what I meant by 'feel'
<_MMA_> Ahh...
<darkmatter> the actual paper-fiber texturing is what caught my eye
 * DannyKing likes the detail of the leather strap on the journal too
<_MMA_> That fiber detail will have to be dropped at smaller sizes though. Most likely in favor of just coloring the icon slightly.
<darkmatter> _MMA_: yup.. but for the high res it does wonders
<DannyKing> Yes, I agree. This thumbnail doesn't look quite as good: http://www.istartedsomething.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/09/journal.thumbnail.jpg
<_MMA_> In the end this is gonna be a long process and we will revise *alot*. kwwii can fill you in about that re: Oxygen.
<darkmatter> much like the folders in openSUSE Gilouche... although I don't like the smaler sizes in the gilouche theme (bold tango crayon outlines... very inconsistent with the larger sizes)
<DannyKing> So is it intended to have a brown/orange theme or is that not set in stone yet?
 * DannyKing likes brown/orange
<_MMA_> DannyKing: They are in the palette yes.
<andreasn> darkmatter: crayon?
<_MMA_> So anyone wants to take a stab at the file icon just email 'em to me and I'll use 'em with some specific filetypes. Multimedia/office files and whatnot.
<andreasn> darkmatter: did they change those since I was a kid?
<darkmatter> _MMA_: http://jimmac.musichall.cz/i.php?i=suse11-industrial  <--- you culd take an approach similar to that for the smaller sizes, but not so 'bold' with the outlines
<darkmatter> andreasn: :P
<_MMA_> darkmatter: Have you looked at the wiki links I posted or seen the ML lately?
<darkmatter> andreasn: it's not a complaint, its just that, regardless of my respect for the work done on tango, it's a bit heavy-handed, ala a crayon :P
<darkmatter> _MMA_: yup
<andreasn> darkmatter: ah, just wondering if you meant "looks crayon" as in "I think it looks like something a kid drew" or that you thought it actually thought it looked like crayon
<DannyKing> _MMA_:  phew, found the tablet svg file... I had almost formatted that entire drive last week so that was lucky!
<_MMA_> w00t!
<darkmatter> _MMA_: it's just that the 48x48's on the wiki lack definition.. granted it's still in draft..
<darkmatter> in regards to the folders I mean
<_MMA_> darkmatter:I actually feel the 48px ones should be rendered from the larger sizes and everything below get altered or redrawn. But that will most likely be debated.
<_MMA_> DannyKing: In the end, alot of the drawing will be up to others. I will be doing alot of technical stuff. People will need to be involved and create. My main role has been removing the barriers to let people just create.
<_MMA_> DannyKing: Though I have generated alot of work for studio and such, I don't consider myself much of an artist.
<DannyKing> I fully intend to be one of those people. My situation is this: I have 10 days before I go to Uni and I'm working in the very last stages of a web development contract which will hopefully be completed in a few days, so it's possible I could do some almost full-time work for a few days soon. After that I'll probably not have any time for a month, but I'd love to be able to contribute to the icon theme after that
<_MMA_> DannyKing: Sure. Like I said, the icon work is bite-sized and will take a while to get the set done. So no rush. Just keep up with reading the ML and you should be fine.
<DannyKing> Will do :)
<kwwii> anyone running Intrepid and my PPA shuld update and see if the new human icon theme fixes the logout dialog
<kwwii> where is popey when you need him
<_MMA_> kwwii: Ill add the PPA now.
<_MMA_> kwwii: What *was* the issue so I can look?
<kwwii> _MMA_: the new logout dialog was all messed up...the top icon was small and the suspend icon simply didn't exist
<kwwii> so it showed something ugly instead
<_MMA_> ok
<_MMA_> kwwii: So it should be fairly obvious. I really dont like the new dialogs. How all the power/logon options are split now.
<kwwii> right
<kwwii> yeah, and they are using crazy icons for this stuff cause they didn't like the others
<_MMA_> bah
<zniavre> hello i read you talking about logout dialog >there is a way to theme it as gdm ?
<kwwii> _MMA_: it just built 7 minutes ago, so it might not show up yet
<kwwii> zniavre: there is a way to change it I think, yes
<zniavre> where is the logout config folder please i can't find it
<_MMA_> kwwii: That's good though because it lets me see it broken, and it looks odd here so I guess I have the old one.
<kwwii> teh refresh arrow thingy at top should be small
<kwwii> and the suspend icon is some other icon from your installed themes
<_MMA_> kwwii: yep
<kwwii> if I did it right, that should be fixed with my updates
<kwwii> I added the arrow at other sizes (vector as well)
<kwwii> and added an icon for suspend
<_MMA_> I'll let you know. I might have to grab you changes for my set.
<Cimi> kwwii, mockups dude!
<Cimi> if you want a new look in intrepid of course
<kwwii> Cimi: ok, I will take time later this evening and send you something
<kwwii> I have something 50% done
<darkmatter> http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php/Professional+Hardy+-+Preview?content=90290 <--- LOL? oO
<darkmatter> that's roughly as professional as the dog pooh I accidentally stepped on last time I went for a walk ;o
<DannyKing> I suppose it depends on your definition. For an office that wouldn't be considered professional, but perhaps in a recording studio it might
<DannyKing> Although it hurts my eyes when I read it... :p
<andreasn> kwwii: what crazy icons? view-refresh for reboot?
<kwwii> andreasn: yes, exactly
<kwwii> and system-shutdown for suspend
<andreasn> kwwii: if by the others, the ones from the previous logout dialog, I don't think that was ever submitted upstream
<kwwii> well, sure but just picking a refresh icon is kinda dumb
<DannyKing> What are the other suggestions for a reboot icon?
<andreasn> I'm not sure, I kind of have a hard time making my mind up if refresh and reboot is the same thing or not
<DannyKing> (I assume by refresh icon you guys are talking about two arrows in a circle?)
<kwwii> _MMA_: nice one :-)
<DannyKing> To me they are definitely similar
<andreasn> both the human reboot icon and gnome-icon-theme are blue shapes, two arrows
<kwwii> DannyKing: in the human theme it is just one arrow
<andreasn> gnome-icon-theme refresh that is
<DannyKing> kwwii: ah, okay - that makes less sense
<kwwii> the reboot icon in human is two arrows
<kwwii> :p
<andreasn> yes, that's what I'm saying
<kwwii> well, apparently they didn't like that icon
<andreasn> upstream?
<kwwii> I think that they thought the simple shapes are too hard to tell apart
<kwwii> no, my guess is that this is mpt and co
<andreasn> wasn't it just that they didn't want to patch the dialog?
<andreasn> anyway, I don't have any idea really
<kwwii> yeah, I have no idea either :-)
<andreasn> but if there should be specialized icons for reboot etc. I think it would be best to file a upstream bug about that
<kwwii> I just get to fix things at the last minute :p
<_MMA_> kwwii: I thought you would like that. :P
<Cimi> kwwii, please disable rgba at compile
<Cimi> or remove it from the options rgba = FALSE
<Cimi> we will enable it when it will be more supported (system widely)Â§
<_MMA_> I'd personally rather have it enabled at compile but turned off in the theme.
<_MMA_> That lowers the barrier for users to test things later.
<Cimi> rgba = FALSE
<kwwii> until now I cannot see any bugs from it
<kwwii> and I have been running it like that for months
<Cimi> kwwii, it makes applications unconsistent
<_MMA_> *IF* turned on in the theme.
<kwwii> yeah, that is true
<_MMA_> So like I said, "I'd personally rather have it enabled at compile but turned off in the theme."
<kwwii> ok, time for a meeting
<DannyKing> Would it be useful for me to draft a proposed style guide (that can be changed at request, of course) for the breathe icon theme _MMA_? What I would hope to achieve from it would be clear guidance on lighting, colours, perspective, personality/feel to ensure continuity. I know there are ideas on this already, but they seem scattered around and it might help to have them all in one place, similar to Apple's page here: http://develope
<DannyKing> http://developer.apple.com/documentation/UserExperience/Conceptual/AppleHIGuidelines/XHIGIcons/chapter_15_section_7.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/20000967-TPXREF106  for example is great
<_MMA_> Sure. I have that link. Thought I even put it on the wiki.
<DannyKing> Oh I may have missed it in that case
<_MMA_> DannyKing: I'm all for you editing the wiki for your ideas. There should be a section for it already.
<_MMA_> Just nothing specific added yet.
<DannyKing> Okay, thanks
<thorwil> DannyKing: regarding personality/feel, Breathe should align with KyÅ«dÅ
<_MMA_> thorwil: How? This is what I keep missing.
<thorwil> _MMA_: same target audience and message
<_MMA_> thorwil: I never thought KyÅ«dÅ defined style.
<thorwil> _MMA_: i think this means decidedly _not_ conservative. our young web savvy professionals like renewal, a touch of avantgarde
<thorwil> _MMA_: after defining the why and what, you get to the how. all meant to be included there
<_MMA_> Sure. but I was under the impression that KyÅ«dÅ was the process to help define that for future projects? Not define that *now*.
<_MMA_> I think *not* letting audience be decided as needed is dangerous.
<thorwil> _MMA_: parts of it can be thought of a as a framework. other parts rely on decisions. now
<thorwil> _MMA_: so the process would be the same, the outline would stay, but if you decide you need another audience strategy, you have to rework everything from that point on
<_MMA_> thorwil: For instance. I'm completely open to the Ubuntu CE and ME guys being active here. The can have radically different audiences.
<thorwil> _MMA_: in that case, we need a split there. branching
<_MMA_> "you have to rework everything from that point on" Then I would say that KyÅ«dÅ should be the base only. And leave out definitions.
<thorwil> _MMA_: but i'm worried about having any particpation, not about some projects that didn't step into the room at all yet ;)
<thorwil> _MMA_: i will not build with air and wan to avoid being even more abstract
<_MMA_> Sure. Im just trying to think of the future. Though I realize its unlikely. However it *is* likely someone would want to use the KyÅ«dÅ process and not any exact definitions or answers to the questions even within our current community.
<_MMA_> Kith vs. NewWave or something.
<thorwil> _MMA_: the audience-independant parts are already set apart as Mindset and Process
<_MMA_> thorwil: Ok. Ill have to review things again.
<DannyKing> Way off topic: anyone use synergy and know a way around the clipboard becoming unresponsive?
<_MMA_> Not I. I've never noticed actually.
<_MMA_> Though it's been months since I rant it.
<DannyKing> I love synergy but it seems to have stopped being developed sadly.
<_MMA_> Just a note, Inkscape SVN has switched to FreeDesktop compliance wrt it's settings. ~/.config/Inkscape now instead of ~/.inkscape.
<savvas> is anyone good with licenses here?
<_MMA_> Depends.
<_MMA_> Ask away.
<savvas> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~timekpr-maintainers/timekpr/trunk/files/51
<savvas> head to logo > licensecopyright
<savvas> I wanted to mix 1&3 or 2&3
<savvas> er.. I mean I would like.. :)
<savvas> but I don't know which license to choose for the "remixed" logo
<savvas> I think the fbi dude is public license, the nuvola stop hand I don't know, and the current event icon is LPGL
<_MMA_> nuvola stop is CC-BY-SA
<_MMA_> So... Wow. I gotta think about that. :)
<savvas> ok, sorry for taking precious time, but I'm trying to help out in that project and don't want to have any problems with licenses :)
<_MMA_> 3 licenses. All allow derivatives. But how to combine.
<_MMA_> Gimmie a min Ill try to figure this out.
<savvas> alrighty, take your time
 * savvas pours some tea and shares :p
<_MMA_> savvas: You want to use 2 of these in 1 image?
<_MMA_> The public domain one is no problem.
<savvas> yes
<_MMA_> Its mixing 2+3 that will be an issue.
<savvas> that's the one i'm currently using hah
<_MMA_> Otherwise, mixing 1+any other is fine. Use the "other" license.
<savvas> so 1+3 should be LGPL ?
<_MMA_> Correct
<savvas> ok thanks!
<savvas> another thing, now.. if it's GPL + LGPL, the resulting icon would be LGPL?
<_MMA_> Hmm... That I dont know.
<savvas> darn.. is there a gnu license channel around? :)
<_MMA_> I also think if you use CC-BY-SA the derivative work *has* to be SA. SO that might mess things with the LGPL image up.
<_MMA_> There is a creative commons channel.
<savvas> I'll dig up their sources, maybe I'll find two same licenses that use the same license
<savvas> bingo! http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Current_event_clock.svg public license
<savvas> i'll just beautify it a bit
<_MMA_> cool
<darkmatter> hmmm... we really need a library to get gtk to read window states from metacity...
<darkmatter> plus some kind of generic hook in gtk itself to plug into the library... hmmmm
<savvas> woot, the new public-domain current event :P
<savvas> http://savvas.radevic.com/timekpr/public-domain_event_clock.svg
<savvas> it's not as good as the licensed one, but hey.. it's a clock :P
<darkmatter> clocks are evil, we should all switch to sundials
<savvas> i know what you mean
<savvas> I set intrepid's time zone in time-admin to europe/belgrade and it always comes up as europe/sarajevo
<savvas> was fixed in hardy, but this looks like a small regression to gutsy and feisty heh
<_MMA_> Cimi: I would like to have the stripe (Studios blue highlight) back on *active* tabs at the very least. If I had my way the inactive tabs would get them also but they would gray out or something.
<_MMA_> This would defiantly help dark themes to show active tabs better.
<Cimi> increase lightborder_ratio?
<_MMA_> Im unaware of that setting.
 * _MMA_ looks.
<_MMA_> Cimi: I don't see where that effects things. In the end. I believe the removal of the little color on the tabs is a mistake. I wish I knew the rational behind the decision. I'd like it put back on at least active tabs. That removal of color to me only makes things feel more plain.
<Cimi> the rational is due to consintency. the stripes didn't look consistent with a lot of themes and had problems with dark themes (it looked ugly with a various range of dark colorschemes). also having striped tabs is not necessary: see firefox, windows or osx: neither of them is using a striped tab
<_MMA_> Then make it an option. Leave it there for designers. And who cares what Mac/Windows does? ;)
<_MMA_> Cimi: Remember "ugly" in an opinion. I believe the studio theme looked quite nice with it. This touch is also one reason we continued using the engine.
<DanaG> I just tested the theme I use, by changing the background to black... and those tabs look about the same quality both when dark and when light.
<DanaG> Not necessarily "great" -- but the same.
<Cimi> _MMA_, use another engine
<lucazade_> new tab design is the state of the art, i would not change a line in murrine
<_MMA_> Cimi: Great attitude. The picture of a developer.
<Cimi> _MMA_, why on earth I should change something I'm convinced of? :)
<_MMA_> Cimi: It would be *trivial* for you to add back as an *option*. Leave it to theamers to decide.
<Cimi> it will result in 100 more lines
<Cimi> it is not so trivial
<Cimi> though if you have better designs for selected tabs I could care about
<Cimi> I've asked on my blog for mockups, but none replied (neither you)
<_MMA_> Cimi: Not to mention that you have been actively looking for ideas/mock-ups.
<Cimi> I actually have no better ideas than remove those stripes
<Cimi> I'm planning to add an option for a "tabstyle"
<_MMA_> Cimi: I haven't said anything before because I had nothing to add. Now I do. So Im saying something.
<Cimi> but I won't add that option for the previous design
<Cimi> provide a mockup with something *better* than the previous
<_MMA_> Oh FFS. "better" is a opinion. And if you don't agree now, what's the point? Put the stripe back as an option on active tabs. That's all I would like. Doesn't require a mock-up.
<_MMA_> If you won't, oh well. But don't have a crap attitude and tell me to "use something else". It's part of the problem in our community.
<Cimi> no I don't, at least not for the previous look. I can't accept request to everybody or the engine will become a pain to maintain.
<lucazade_> have an option for tabs could be good, btw the stripes look outdated
<Cimi> _MMA_, there's no problem to use a different engine for tabs
<Cimi> just add engine "clearlooks" and you'll got it
<_MMA_> Cimi: None that look like the previous ones.
<Cimi> and if you don't like it too, change engine! :) this is free software
<_MMA_> Cimi: Yeah. And hear you complain about it again. No thanx.
<Cimi> I gave you a reasonable reason why I have deprecated the old one
<Cimi> and a reason why I won't add 100-200 lines of code just for 2 lines of stripe
<_MMA_> Reasonable for you. An additional *option* that can be turned on/off hurts nobody IMO.
<Cimi> hurts the developer ;)
 * _MMA_ forks Murrine into FunMurrine. :P
<Cimi> who has another option to take care about
<Cimi> take care of
 * Cimi hopes someone will teach him english someday in the future
<_MMA_> Cimi: Our *major* problem around free software is developers and designers don't talk or listen to each other. This attitude only perpetuates that. I'm not saying we have to always agree, but I just don't see at all how *this* options hurts anyone. Even if it means more lines of code.
<Cimi> _MMA_, taking a code readable is a prerogative of a good coder. if you see oxygen's code you'll know why they need one week to change two pixels ;)
<_MMA_> I don't understand that. ^^^
<_MMA_> Are you saying the code you previously wrote was bad?
<lucazade_> those stripes look strange, i don't think this could be a good option to be added
<lucazade_> maybe something new
<_MMA_> Cimi: If not, this was a *design* choice by you. Not code related. You didn't like the *look*.
<Cimi> _MMA_, I'm saying that an user won't see difference with one option more or less. but a coder will have more code to maintain, and this will result in a code less readable
<DanaG> What's the new appearance?  I'm just curious.
<DanaG> (screenshot.)
<Cimi> DanaG, http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/175266/Schermata.png
<_MMA_> Cimi: I don't agree at all users won't see that stripe removed. 1st thing I saw with kwwii's updated package.
<Cimi> _MMA_, it is code related because if it would require +10 lines instead +100-200 I will add it
<DanaG> Hmm, I actually can't decide whether I like it or not, but thanks.. now I know what the discussion is about.
<Cimi> _MMA_, OT: is "I will add it" correct in english?
<Cimi> or I should use I would add it?
<_MMA_> Cimi: I'm sorry man, but it's just one more thing that makes themes look flat. The stripe gave things color.
<_MMA_> Cimi: *would
<Cimi> best tabs on the earth are from clearlooks :)
<lucazade_> but is too much related with the selected_bg_color with the stripes
<Cimi> but on murrine they looks not consistent
<Cimi> they look
<Cimi> not looks
<Cimi> damn fucking idiot I am
<_MMA_> Cimi: Naa... It's better than my Italian for sure. Don't worry about it. ;)
<Cimi> unfortunately I had a stupid teacher
<Cimi> she didn't teach us much more than what I've learnt from other sources
<_MMA_> Just come to the States or UK for a couple of months. Being *in* the language is always best.
<Cimi> basically, I've learnt to speak english here on IRC
<Cimi> _MMA_, could be, but someone should convince me first to leave my girlfriend for a couple of months :)
<_MMA_> Cimi: Also, don't take my strong opposition to this new Murrine change to mean I'm personally pissed at you. I just *really* think it's a mistake to remove it all together. Any decision I take with Studio always has choice in mind. Even when something needs to be removed I try to give other options.
<_MMA_> Cimi: You're young. Girlfriends come and go. ;)
<Cimi> _MMA_, I'm quite a serious guy (I mean I'm not searching sex but love)
<Cimi> we are engaged for 4 years
<_MMA_> You Italians always say that. :P
<Cimi> the time I went in USA (seattle)
<Cimi> I got two different woman (30+ years old)
<Cimi> who tried to seduce me :)
<_MMA_> And you said "girlfriend". Had you said "fiancÃ©e" that would have changed my reply.
<Cimi> it seems they like italians as well :)
<Cimi> *women
<_MMA_> It's *just* the accent. :)
<zniavre> there is any software as xnest to check (try*)  usplash ? please
<Cimi> zniavre, maybe a virtual machine :)
<zniavre> yep it's what i do not want to do in fact but ...
<_MMA_> It is the easiest way.
<zniavre> right
<zniavre> thank you
<_MMA_> I *think* there's another way to test but it involved some crazy commands that escape me atm.
<zniavre> do not mind im dlding iso right now
<zniavre> merci
<_MMA_> je t'en prie
<_MMA_> (hope that's correct)
<zniavre> sorry i wrote french by error    (yes it was correct)
<_MMA_> zniavre: No problem. Casual use of other languages is fine. IMO (in my opinion) it helps bring people together. Creates understanding. It's only when chat gets really detailed or involved it becomes an issue. :)
<Cimi> a lot of bugfixes tonight for murrine :)
<_MMA_> It helps Americans the most I feel because we live in such a big country it alot harder to be exposed to other languages in the same way Europeans are.
<_MMA_> Though Spanish is becoming big because if immigrants from latin America
<DanaG> Ooh, community-themes is now a package.
<Cimi> _MMA_, spanish is spoken more than english
<Cimi> kwwii, from revision 73 murrine supports rounded Entry in firefox
<Cimi> no more ugly squared fill
<Cimi> but you need to update firefox
<_MMA_> Cimi: Source? I always see Spanish just under English. With Mandarin being the most overall.
<Cimi> _MMA_, that's true
<Cimi> I'm wrong
<Cimi> I have studied with outdated books
<_MMA_> English and Spanish are very close though. I see a couple of lists put Spanish *just* above but you always have to look at the dates. ie: Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_languages_by_number_of_native_speakers#Top_20 has them as close as 13million but its sources vary in dates. Hard to really know.
<savvas> they're latin-based
<savvas> although spanish people are a lot like greeks :)
<_MMA_> Cimi: And anyway, how does that relate to what I said before? Unless you're trying to start some kinds "English is teh best!" fight with me? :)
<Cimi> _MMA_> Though Spanish is becoming big because if immigrants from latin America
<Cimi> I remembered (incorrectly) that it was already more spoken than english
<_MMA_> Cimi: There's a context to that statement you might have missed.
<Cimi> _MMA_, yeah, I'm fixing murrine ;)
<_MMA_> "Though Spanish is becoming big because if immigrants from latin America" referred to the growing use to Spanish in the U.S.
<_MMA_> s/to/of
<savvas> the spanish inquisition.. :)
 * _MMA_ can only think of the Mel Brooks film "The history of the World" hen he hears those words. :P
<_MMA_> *when
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-09-27
<Cimi> kwwii, they are working great, just tested
<Cimi> http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/175266/Schermata-1.png
<Cimi> see the entry on the right
<Cimi> on the left
<Cimi> LOL
<Cimi> _MMA_, seen? :)
<_MMA_> I did.
<_MMA_> Cimi: Sorry. I'm starting to get into the evening here. My family calls.
<Cimi> _MMA_, ok ;)
<Cimi> good evening
 * kwwii comes out of hibernation
<Cimi> kwwii, thanks for the mockups, they look amazing!
<Cimi> _MMA_, killed the kids? :)
<_MMA_> No.
<rsc-> sup fellas :)
<Cimi> _MMA_ Ã¨ uscito ("Time to kill the kids.")
<_MMA_> Cimi: Oh! haha. My away message. :P
<kwwii> Cimi: they are coming, I am working on them right now
 * Cimi changes pc
<kwwii> Cimi: http://sinecera.de/murrine_mock.png
<kwwii> not done though
<kwwii> and when I look at it on this laptop I think it still needs a lot of work
<kwwii> and with that, I am off to bed
<Cimi> everything should be doable
<Cimi> though I'm not in love with the progressbars with the vertical separators
<Cimi> and optionmenu is deprecated ;)
<rsc-> i never really understood why there's both a combo box and an option menu.
<rsc-> Cimi, hello, gtk documentation. any clue on how I can make an exception for OpenOffice to make it use a different style for toolbars and menus? :)
<rsc-> and horizontal padding for toolbar buttons?
<thorwil> i wonder what some people are smoking. https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/human-theme/+bug/272832/comments/7
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 272832 in human-theme "new design still not implemented" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<DanaG> Hmm, the first time I've tried the Kin theme, now that it's packaged.... I kind of like it.  Makes me feel an urge to eat some fruit, actually.
<DanaG> =Ã¾
<Zirodaeee> thorwil: its stupid rumors from the people at digg
<Zirodaeee> thorwil: there was an idea going around about a deviantart contest and some people thought it was true
<thorwil> Zirodaeee: yes. i just don't get how one can jump from hearing about an idea to writing it actually happened
<Zirodaeee> thorwil: silly blogger trying to get thier 5 minutes of fame
<Zirodaeee> writing absolute rubbish
<thorwil> kwwii: interesting requirements for membership in fedora art group: http://mihmo.livejournal.com/62031.html
<kwwii> thorwil: yeah, I thought that was a good idea
<thorwil> kwwii: definitively
<rsc-> :D
<rsc-> http://dump.ambiescent.com/i/red-ibex.jpg
<zniavre> rsc-:  really nice
<rsc-> yes unfortunately the wood texture isn't in public domain
<rsc-> so, shit.
<thorwil> yesterday i scanned wood. not such a dark and straight one, though
<rsc-> http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/114190/2009%20Dust/bare.png
<rsc-> alpha-blended PNG of the Ibex composition. knock yourself out :)
 * thorwil is knocking his system out with 600dpi scans
<rsc-> nice.
<rsc-> i'm sure others would appreciate it if you have a few of those available to the public :)
<thorwil> rsc-: maybe i will torture bzr/LP with them ^^
<thorwil> rsc-: i'll try if your composition fits on one of them later on
<rsc-> i can imagine that LP won't be the most ideal way to share hi-res textures :P
<thorwil> rsc-: yes, but i want versioning and backup for my work, anyway
<thorwil> rsc-: but now i have to use a cloudless sky for cycling! :D
<thorwil> laters
<_MMA_> rsc-_: Do you have you original Ibex, without the background available? I wanted to see what I could do background-wise.
<rsc-_> _MMA_, of course
<rsc-_> _MMA_, its in the mailing list
<rsc-_> or are you referring to something else?
<_MMA_> I never was it "without the background".
<_MMA_> ie: *just* the Ibex.
<_MMA_> SO I could try it as a overlay.
<rsc-_> you mean the ibex picture?
<rsc-_> http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/114190/2009%20Dust/bare.png
<rsc-_> here's the composition I made, without the background. It's an alpha-blended PNG so you can drop on top of any background you want
<rsc-_> and here's the source:
<rsc-_> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ed/Capra_ibex_ibex_%E2%80%93_03.jpg
<rsc-_> ..where I traced it from
<_MMA_> Yeah. bare was what I was looking for. Thanx.
<DannyKing> Looks fantastic rsc-_
<rsc-_> thanks Danny
<_MMA_> I really think this could be used as-is with a gradient put on the background.
<rsc-_> hehe
<rsc-_> perhaps
<rsc-_> #3F3223 / #231717 works
<rsc-_> vertical #201919 to #6B4646
<_MMA_> I would maybe hide a little more of the legs/horns though.
<rsc-_> ah, yeah.
<rsc-_> didn't really get to polish this much, sorry
<rsc-_> in fact those aren't supposed to show *at all*
<_MMA_> Because they kinda contrast against the abstract parts that have a sharper look to them.
<rsc-_> mustve been a layer i forgot to invisible-ize
<_MMA_> Ahh...
<rsc-_> lemme try to revise.
<_MMA_> cool
<rsc-_> I also don't like those 3 lines that look like a moustache. =P
<_MMA_> :)
<rsc-_> hmm.
<rsc-_> http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/114190/2009%20Dust/bare.png
<rsc-_> refresh guys
 * _MMA_ has to start using DropBox.
<rsc-_> it seems okay at first, but it's still lacking a few key features.
<_MMA_> rsc-_: I'll give it a min. Seems to be hanging.
<rsc-_> for instance, it syncs all files across your computers. so if you use it as a backup tool, your other computer will also download the backups that it shouldn't, heh :)
<_MMA_> Ahh...
<rsc-_> but its very promising. worth checking out
<DannyKing> I actually just started using it too
<DannyKing> I love it
<_MMA_> Time to make new upload to Breathe BZR.
<rsc-_> wheres the breathe bzr?
<DannyKing> What's the progress, _MMA_ ?
<_MMA_> DannyKing: I should be putting out that call for icon ideas today.
<DannyKing> Great, I'll hang around and try to participate :)
<_MMA_> I just updated the template and the 6 icons that are on that 1st page.
<_MMA_> They needed some technical additions in order for a script to correctly build the set from the SVGs later.
<rsc-_> bzr branch lp:breathe..?
<DannyKing> Ah right
<_MMA_> So now, all I do is drop in the new images we create.
<DannyKing> That'd be jimmac's script? It's a brilliant idea
<_MMA_> Si
<_MMA_> https://code.launchpad.net/~breathe-dev/breathe-icon-set/trunk
<_MMA_> So: bzr branch lp:breathe-icon-set
<rsc-_> brilliant
<rsc-_> how do i contribute?
<_MMA_> rsc-_: I still need to upload my current changes.
<_MMA_> rsc-_: Well uploading will be strictly controlled as to avoid hickups. But the plan is to focus on specific isons at a time. Though, anyone is free to grab a SVG and work on others.
<_MMA_> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/BreatheIconSet/Icons
<_MMA_> The child pages will continue to get populated with the base Oxygen set.
<rsc-_> sweet,i just did a bzr branch. can i use the icon theme now?
<_MMA_> You will see a PNG preview and have the SVG source there.
<_MMA_> Oh no. There's nothing but the start of things.
<rsc-_> is this .py the script of jimmac?
<_MMA_> Yes, but it has been through revisions with help from a Inkscape guy. (tedg)
<_MMA_> Still needs some polis.
<_MMA_> *polish
<rsc-_> it takes the .svg's and rasterizes each into .png?
<_MMA_> Si
<_MMA_> But I still need to grab the big one for scalable somehow. It's been tricky. I might need a new feature in Inkscape to do it.
<DannyKing> I think jimmac also released a great app that lets you view all your icons next to each other (including all sizes of the same icon)
<rsc-_> hmm, the folders aren't showing
<_MMA_> DannyKing: It's a webpage.
<DannyKing> Oh cool, I'll take a look
<_MMA_> rsc-_: Aren't showing how?
<rsc-_> hehe, nevermind.
<rsc-_> I was assuming the icon theme folder was populated.
<_MMA_> no no no no . WAY too early for that.
<_MMA_> rsc-_: ATM, there's nothing to do but create.
<rsc-_> is there a script to take source_svg and render out to rendered?
 * rsc-_ is considering on making a Makefile.
<_MMA_> I'm pushing changes now. I have 1 more push in a min though.
<rsc-_> okay
<_MMA_> rsc-_: Â¿QuÃ©?
<_MMA_> Damn. I meant "why". :P
<_MMA_> Why the makefile?
<rsc-_> haha, i dont know, is render_bitmap.py enough to generate the Breathe iconset folder?
<_MMA_> The .py script will handle building the set.
<rsc-_> oh okay
<rsc-_> sorry, I wasn't sure :P I thoguht the .py only did individual files
<_MMA_> No. It parses 'source_svg' and puts everything in 'Breathe' in the correct place. Or at least will. Mostly works now minus the "scaleable" icon.
<rsc-_> doesn't quite work here, hehe
<rsc-_> it expects "./svg" on my copy
<rsc-_> (rev 10)
<_MMA_> I just pushed rev12 with an updated script.
<rsc-_> okay
<rsc-_> o_O
<rsc-_> its working!
<_MMA_> This looks to work just fine. Though it throws errors. Ill have to talk to Ted.
<_MMA_> :P
<_MMA_> Well, duh. ;)
<DannyKing> Anyone know how to easily widen /only/ the bottom of some text to create perspective in Inkscape (the text goes into the distance), similar to the star wars intro text. I'd rather not convert to path
<_MMA_> DannyKing: Should be a path effect.
<DannyKing> Hmm okay thanks, I'll take a look
<_MMA_> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=perspective+inkscape&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&oq=
<_MMA_> I think those are the videos I saw. Though tedg said there was an easier way.
<DannyKing> That appears to be perfect, thanks
<_MMA_> \m
<_MMA_> \m/
<Cimi> _MMA_, why people on the mailing list keep using top-posting even if they are noticied?
<_MMA_> Cimi: Because they use Gmail and hides the posting order. Look at the address next time 9/10 times it's a gmail user.
<_MMA_> Even though, I use Gmail.
<Cimi> _MMA_, me too, but I spend 2 seconds in respect of the non-gmail users
<_MMA_> I know, I know. I post correctly not of of respect for non-gmail users. It's because of the web archive.
<_MMA_> If you look at our ML online, many threads are a mess.
<Cimi> _MMA_, let's ban gmail users from subscribing
<_MMA_> The actual plan was to have links to the rules for new subscribers. With an emphasis on posting etiquette. Something kwwii still has to do.
<DannyKing> Ugh, Inkscape gets /so/ slow
<_MMA_> DannyKing: When?
<_MMA_> I also assume you're using SVN?
<DannyKing> When ever you have anything that starts to get complex (lots of nodes, lots of patterns, lots of blur especially)
<DannyKing> Yeah, well I use both stable and svn
<_MMA_> PRGUY85: thorwil is the one to talk to re:kyudo. But he's not here atm.
<Cimi> DannyKing, xrender is slow because of the drivers
<_MMA_> DannyKing: This is where multi-threading would be nice. That Severed Fifth wall is a bear this way.
<PRGUY85> MMA, thanks a bunch.  One thing do you have to be a designer in order to help?
<_MMA_> PRGUY85: Depends on what you want to do. Action will get you more respect than talk. So it just depends on how you get involved.
<PRGUY85> MMA, the thing is I have read the guidelines but I don't really understand your next steps or goals.  It looks like all rhetoric (and important) but I don't get what you will do next.  And if I don't get that, then I don't know how I can help.
<_MMA_> PRGUY85: They will be guidelines for whatever we as a community want to focus on in a cycle.
<PRGUY85> MMA: So what's the next step right now for everyone working on kyudo
<_MMA_> PRGUY85: But it always strikes me as odd when people offer to help but have no clue what they can offer.
<PRGUY85> MMA, sorry then and thanks for your time.
<_MMA_> PRGUY85: What can you offer? What do you do?
<PRGUY85> MMA: As I said, I posted my limitations from the get-go.  I am no designer and have no advanced knowledge to create artwork.  I have aided Dilomo diligently in his New Wave theme and right now am in charge of that theme's development.  The aid I can offer is more of a tester and idea man.  However, I am sure you've all got plenty of those.
<kwwii> the first stuff that thorwil has been working on is the mood boards
<kwwii> that was posted to the mailing list
<kwwii> I would read up on that and start there
<_MMA_> PRGUY85: "I am no designer" is all you said today. Not really telling. I have no clue who you are otherwise. The rest of the items you just posted gives me a better idea.
<PRGUY85> MMA, I just thought that was really all you guys needed that's why I said it from the get-go.
<_MMA_> PRGUY85: Assumptions. :)
<PRGUY85> MMA, Guess so ;)
<kwwii> ok, so what should i work on today
<kwwii> hrm
<_MMA_> kwwii: Breathe folder icon!!!
<_MMA_> :D
<PRGUY85> haha
<PRGUY85> it's good that the artwork team has discussed that they are not appointed to create the official artwork.  All around the forums people thought so.  Again, MMA assumptions hehe
<_MMA_> DannyKing: Were you planning on getting together some kinda base filetype icon ideas?
<DannyKing> As in general style, look & feel ideas?
<_MMA_> DannyKing: Well, what you would like to see based on yesterdays chat.
<_MMA_> It would need to be a strait on view. Top-down lighting.
<_MMA_> This is because we want to use details from the Oxygen set.
<DannyKing> Personally, I would like to see a realistic, highly detailed and beautiful icon theme that would rival OS X
<_MMA_> Well. We'll see. :)
<_MMA_> It's up to us.
<thorwil> hi!
<DannyKing> highly detailed and realistic being the key words I guess. But I'm very open to other opinions
<DannyKing> hello
<_MMA_> PRGUY85: As I have become disgusted with the forums, I have no clue what the current opinion of the art is. Good to hear they know we dont make default.
<_MMA_> Hi thorwil.
<_MMA_> DannyKing: I kinda like the fiber look to the images we saw yesterday.
<thorwil> DannyKing: if you're talking about guidleines for Breathe, i think hyperrealism could be a key word. rich and close-to-photorealistic shading, but some optimizing for easy recognition. an even-better-than-real-life look
<DannyKing> _MMA_: Yeah me too. I liked the fact there was actual texture in there
<DannyKing> thorwil: yep, we are. I agree with you about hyperrealism
<DannyKing> in fact I couldn't word my ideal look better myself
<thorwil> just recently i saw an icon theme where all arrows where put within circles. that's ... not clever. we have to take care about good shapes
<_MMA_> DannyKing: I actually think for text files we should have a piece of paper that looks like it was torn from a spiral notebook. little bits of frayed paper at the side and all.
<DannyKing> _MMA_: That sounds great!
<DannyKing> Of course at smaller sizes we'd have to have much less detail
<_MMA_> Exactly.
<thorwil> especially the folder icon should b tested with in-context mockups
<_MMA_> But I want to render the 48px .PNGs from the 256 scailables.
<thorwil> not a good idea, i think
<_MMA_> thorwil: If you grab my latest revisions to breathe, it actually builds.
<kwwii> lol, people reported that the alpha transparency in some apps is a bug
<_MMA_> I saw.
<thorwil> _MMA_: i just recently worked on an icon where i made a 256 px scalable first. even the 48 px version needed some reworking, a different approach
<DannyKing> :\ Probably too used to using < IE6 ;)
<DannyKing> I think if we were to make such highly detailed images, each and every size would need at least some re-touching
<DannyKing> Lighting, shading at the very least
<thorwil> DannyKing: we shouldn't obsess about the large sizes too much. just look around for what the user gets to see most of the time
<_MMA_> thorwil: I'm honestly not hard set. We could make sure the 256 scaliables render fine at 48px. Also if you make a link from /breathe-icon-set/Breathe to /.icons/Breathe it works quite nice.
<DannyKing> Because realism is all about subtle details and you can't always get away with such subtlety at smaller sizes
<_MMA_> This is why 48px should be out target. It's what people will see most.
<_MMA_> But, I could be talked out of it.
<_MMA_> Draw at 256 with what ever detail and just refine for smaller sizes.
<DannyKing> Agreed
<thorwil> if 48 px is the target, one should start with it
<DannyKing> I thought you were talking about drawing at 256 and scaling with no refining
<_MMA_> DannyKing: I was. But maybe it would work fine to take the 256, scale it to 48, then add/remove needed detail.
<DannyKing> I think that for a less detailed set it wouldn't (always) be necessary, but for 'hyper-realistic' icons, scaling without further refinement could result in too much detail just causing a mess.
<DannyKing> Of course it adds a lot to the work load, but personally I feel that's worth it
<_MMA_> Sure.
<PRGUY85> When you guys say "hyper-realistic" do you mean icon will be almost a photo of a real-life folder for example?  Because when I see the Oxygen or other great icon themes I don't really think hyper-realistic but highly stylized representations of reality.
<DannyKing> thorwil: yes true about obsessing about large sizes. They are rarely seen
<_MMA_> I do want 48 to be as close to 256 as makes sense though. I just fear massive differences between the 2.
<DannyKing> PRGUY85: Sort of almost like a photo, yes... but not /too/ like one
<thorwil> PRGUY85: maybe think of it as the difference between an actual photo of a model and the result after photoshoping ;)
<DannyKing> _MMA_: yes I agre. They need to look like the same icon. Just perhaps the smaller icons would have a slightly heavier shadow or something
<DannyKing> *agree
<_MMA_> In the end, I *do* want everything above 48 to use scaleable.
<PRGUY85> DannyKing: Got it.  Well, I believe the Breathe set I have seen is truly a step in the right direction.  Mixes the old and new quite well and doesn't look too much like Oxygen which is a fine line you all as designers should try to stay off.
<_MMA_> Conn!! :)
<_MMA_> (in m best Shatner voice)
<_MMA_> *my
<kwwii> _MMA_: studio sets a panel bg right? do you set the stretch thing in gconf?
<_MMA_> kwwii: No. It simply does it.
<psyke83> hrm, how can you imitate shatner with one word? How do you convey the strange pause between words??
<_MMA_> kwwii: Well, its tiled actually.
<thorwil> psyke83: pauses between silence and the word, of course
<_MMA_> psyke83: Huh? You don't know the Star Trek movie where he yells "Kahn!!!!"? :)
<psyke83> holy shit, that's the first time I realized my name is similar
<_MMA_> :P
<psyke83> wow, that really puts everything in perspective now, thanks
<_MMA_> hehe
<kwwii> _MMA_: right, I think I am going to put a bg in and set it to stretch...see how that works
<psyke83> :P
<_MMA_> kwwii: Hmm... Where's that setting? Might give me other ideas.
<DannyKing> kwwii: That might look really bad with a huge monitor/huge resolution, though?
 * _MMA_ suggests 2560x24px image. :D
<psyke83> kwwii: is there a problem with the panel spacing in the Human theme? Look at the NetworkManager icon (when connected to a wired network) - it's blurry
<_MMA_> kwwii: nm. I found the setting.
<psyke83> when I go to the Panel Preferences, the size is 26pt, and if I expand it to say 40, then resize it back to 26, the NetworkManager icon un-blurs
<_MMA_> kwwii: Just please make sure it's a setting in a *Ubuntu* package that won't be applied to the derivatives just because we share a package.
<kwwii> _MMA_: I was hoping to flash the setting to firmware
<kwwii> psyke83: I am not running intrepid...cannot see it here on hardy
<_MMA_> hahaha. You think "RTFM" is bad, I just saw "Read the F'in README or officially admit to baby rape." Man. That's harsh. :)
<thorwil> kwwii. _MMA_ not sure what to think of it: http://xs431.xs.to/xs431/08396/rsc_ibex_wood790.jpg
<kwwii> the idea is sound but the colors aren't quite right
<_MMA_> thorwil: I like it. Bit dark for a general audience though?
<thorwil> the wood texture is rather dark. it's a wooden trivet
<thorwil> looks all wrong if i try to brighten it
<_MMA_> I see.
<PRGUY85> I think it's too dark.
<PRGUY85> and a bit busy for default background
<_MMA_> PRGUY85: It's no more busy that the Heron.
 * thorwil takes the word default and stomps on it
<PRGUY85> sorry thorwil hehe.
<PRGUY85> Heron was busy but it was a controlled busy, it was not busy everywhere.
<_MMA_> kwwii: I actually think this: http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/114190/2009%20Dust/bare.png is good with a gradient background. Or something equally simple.
<PRGUY85> MMA, I'm for that as well.  However, should it employ the brown/orange colors or try and use the more varied color pallete the original bare.png is using
<DannyKing> I agree with PRGUY85 about being too busy, although I think the image is fantastic.
<_MMA_> psyke83: We need to update the Studio theme to use Clearlooks tabs because the stripe feature was removed from Murrine.
<psyke83> _MMA_: done, but do you want to keep the tab spacing? It started grating on my nerves
<thorwil> kwwii, _MMA_ http://xs231.xs.to/xs231/08396/rsc_ibex_wood_2972.jpg
<_MMA_> psyke83: I kinda liked it but if you feel strongly about it go ahead and ax it.
<PRGUY85> thorwil, that's better I think
<thorwil> i could add the texture and xcf to my LP repo, if anyone here would like to have a play with it
<_MMA_> Kinda hits that same feeling as the Elephant skin wall doesn't it?
<PRGUY85> MMA, it does
<_MMA_> Not that it a bad thing. Just struck me that way.
<thorwil> is that good ro bad? :)
<_MMA_> *it's
<PRGUY85> thorwil I think its a good thing
<PRGUY85> and that latest one has the Ibex details more defined
<_MMA_> psyke83: Just shoot off an email when done.
<DannyKing> thorwil: that second version looks really good
<thorwil> thanks :)
<DannyKing> To me that /is/ ubuntu :)
<DannyKing> Omg
<DannyKing> it's 4pm?!
 * DannyKing hasn't eaten yet! afk
<_MMA_> Yep
<thorwil> not here ^^
<PRGUY85> 11 AM here
<_MMA_> DannyKing is in UK.
<PRGUY85> nice and sunny in puerto rico
 * DannyKing nods
<DannyKing> PRGUY85: que bien, no tenemos mucho sol aqui :(
<PRGUY85> DannyKing, buen espanol para un ingles
<DannyKing> My mum is Spanish :)
<PRGUY85> oh haha that figures
 * _MMA_ heads to Chihuahua, Mexico in a week. (I'm in Raleigh, N.C.)
<PRGUY85> MMA, on vacation?
<_MMA_> Business. I'll be there foe a month then I come back to a new CAD job.
<_MMA_> *for
<DannyKing> Sounds like pretty good business!
<PRGUY85> Mexico is pretty hot
<_MMA_> DannyKing: Hopefully.
<PRGUY85> are you guys using any of the latest community theme packages or have you continued to use human-murrine or any other?
 * _MMA_ pretty much uses the Ubuntu Studio theme exclusively.
<DannyKing> Me too
<DannyKing> Except for some of my own app icons
<_MMA_> Though I test others.
<PRGUY85> Well, the thing I don't like about UStudio is that the last time I used it it was dark in all places.  I think the dark/light mix Dust and New Wave employs is quite functional.
<_MMA_> PRGUY85: It's about audience. The theme also is the way it is because pro A/V apps are often dark.
<PRGUY85> MMA, hmm never thought about that but yea you are right.
<DannyKing> Made this last night: http://flickr.com/photos/danny-king/2890594673/in/photostream/
<thorwil> DannyKing: looks very un-computeristic :)
<_MMA_> DannyKing: Fun. :) Though I think that hard stop the the shine on the logo should be faded. I ran into this recently as well.
<_MMA_> *on the shine...
<DannyKing> lol, yeah I just got my tablet out and started scribbling because I was frustrated at some web development I was doing. Don't take that as an idea of my skill level!
<DannyKing> Oh the logo isn't mine, I just imported the crystal icon
<PRGUY85> hey offtopic, DannyKing I just saw your desktop screenshot.  Looks really sweet.  What icon set are you using, specially on the Avant down there.
<DannyKing> Thanks
<_MMA_> I know. :) Actually that's also in the Inkscape source.
<DannyKing> They're my own, take a look in my flikr photostream - they're all there
<DannyKing> It's not really an icon set, I just wanted to make my dock pretty
<PRGUY85> Great work
<DannyKing> Thanks :)
<_MMA_> DannyKing: Is there an official Inkscape font or text logo?
<DannyKing> I'm not sure, but I keep seeing the same (or at least very similar) font being used with the logo.
<DannyKing> No idea what it is though
<_MMA_> k
<thorwil> http://xs431.xs.to/xs431/08396/rsc_ibex_wood-block673.jpg
<_MMA_> DannyKing: *Part* of Breathe will be making modern upstream app icons. *But* it should *look* like the original. Oxygen has done some of this but have replace the look of the icon. I feel it's important to retain upstream branding as mch as possible.
<DannyKing> I agree
<_MMA_> So, one will be able to grab the template from the wiki and submit an icon whenever.
<_MMA_> Add as we go.
 * _MMA_ clicks thorwil's link.
<DannyKing> thorwil: some great (free) textures here if you're interested: http://www.cgtextures.com/textures.php?t=browse&q=14119
<_MMA_> thorwil: I like this latest one best as it retains more of the abstract Ibex detail and feel like it will fit in better with the Ubuntu theme. (unless kwwii will be changing stuff soon) :)
<DannyKing> I actually like it less than the second, although it's still good
<PRGUY85> Im with DannyKin
<_MMA_> DannyKing: No! My opinion is teh best!! :P
<DannyKing> hehe
<DannyKing> But I do see how it might fit in better with other themes
<thorwil> too bad rsc isn't around
<DannyKing> Oh my God
<DannyKing> I forgot to eat /again/
 * thorwil wonders how to proceed
<DannyKing> I got sidetracked
 * DannyKing is actually afk this time
 * _MMA_ goes to eat as well.
<_MMA_> psyke83: Did you change the tooltip colors as well?
<psyke83> _MMA_, no... perhaps I didn't edit the latest version of the theme, but it's based on the last version I sent to you
<_MMA_> Ok. Ill fix it here.
<psyke83> _MMA_, you'll need to ensure the gedit fix is there as well
<_MMA_> Oh. Maybe I should leave it to you then since I would have to hunt around.
<thorwil> now if only i knew how to check if bzr us actually pushing data or already hanging like it often does with my image files :/
<psyke83> _MMA_, scratch that, the gedit fix and tooltips are already changed in the revision you have. Perhaps you need to reset the color picker settings
<_MMA_> psyke83: default tooltip here says #F5F5B5.
<psyke83> _MMA_, yep, that's the colour you wanted, remember? The yellow background colour used in light themes
<_MMA_> psyke83: Oh. For consistency with a light theme? Did you get the light theme worked out?
<psyke83> _MMA_: I'm not sure what you mean. A while ago, you told me you wanted light tooltips, which required a fix for the Gedit notification bug, so I fixed it and set the tooltips to yellow background on black text. It had nothing to do with the UbuntuStudio-Light theme
<_MMA_> Ok. Maybe I'm just a forgetful ass. In any event, it's fine.
<_MMA_> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/BreatheIconSet/Icons updated.
<_MMA_> All SVGs have a palette (color cues) and background colors to flip through. (for making sure they look right on top of particular colors)
<_MMA_> The python script also builds the theme in breathe-icon-set/Breathe correctly.
<DannyKing> Sounds great :)
<_MMA_> Web2.0 shine also removed from KenV's folders to further show the direction we want to go. Though it still needs alot of work.
<_MMA_> So I'll announce a call for ideas/submissions in a few mins.
<DannyKing> "Remove Web2.0" - well put
<_MMA_> :P
<DannyKing> Is my understanding that the icons must have a top-down perspective? (i.e. flat rather than at an angle against an invisible wall?)
<DannyKing> Just checking
<thorwil> DannyKing: if you look at the icons other than the already replaced folder, you will see there are varying perspectives used
<_MMA_> DannyKing: Do you feel the set should have the same perspective across the entire set? Or can it vary depending on the item.
<_MMA_> ie: I want all the filetypes to be seen strait-on.
<DannyKing> I think there should be a consistent perspective except in possible rare cases
<_MMA_> But, folders could be another.
<DannyKing> top down is fine, just wanted to clarify
<_MMA_> As long as it fits.
<_MMA_> Ok.
<DannyKing> Who made that orange folder?
<DannyKing> Is it the basis for the entire theme?
<_MMA_> Ken Vermette.
<_MMA_> It's not final. Needs revision.
<_MMA_> kwwii is supposed to be doing that.
<_MMA_> But the general feel will be very simular.
<thorwil> DannyKing: the trash bin is much easier to get across in a slightly from above view. here top-down or fronatl do not work that well
<DannyKing> I think it's a brilliant icon, one of the best folders I've seen, but it's not hyper-realistic, like we were talking about earlier. So either we'd need to revise the realism or the icon to make that compatible
<DannyKing> thorwil: true
<DannyKing> by revise the realism, I mean, the idea of using realism
<thorwil> DannyKing: for drives, top-down might work, but the table-view works well for the harddisc
<DannyKing> I prefer the table view
<DannyKing> As for that paper idea (ripped from ring binder), I think that'd look fantastic on a table view
<_MMA_> Note that these icons I feel will set the pace/tone/whatever for the rest of the set. So we're free to play here but should follow them after this.
<thorwil> DannyKing: you could argue, that if hd and cd-drive are in table-view, so should a single cd
<DannyKing> _MMA_: okay
<DannyKing> thorwil: so what, folders & file types are top-down and devices & drives are table?
<DannyKing> *table view
<thorwil> DannyKing: that would be one possibility
<_MMA_> DannyKing: I'm really trying to let other decide this stuff and *not* dictate *everything*. So it's great you're here atm. :)
<_MMA_> *others
<thorwil> even for drives, a non-projection view makes small icon sizes harder to draw and possibly to recognise
<DannyKing> true
<DannyKing> Is non-projecton view top-down view as I was calling it?
<_MMA_> thorwil: What about a perspective change on smaller icons where needed? Ive seen that before.
<thorwil> _MMA_: might be needed
<DannyKing> Yes that could be a good way to do it
<thorwil> DannyKing: with non-projection i mean perspectives that do not have vansihing points
<DannyKing> Okay, gotcha
<thorwil> speaking of which, the drive-optical is on the edge to bothering me because of the lack of a vanishing point downwards
<thorwil> DannyKing: maybe we should try different perspectives for several icons. much work, but then we know what to run with and why
<DannyKing> Good idea
<DannyKing> I think breathe /will/ be much work - but if we can create a really realistic and beautiful icon set I think that'd be well worth it taking a little longer
<DannyKing> There's no deadline is there? (We're not aiming for a particular release of Ubuntu for example?)
<thorwil> DannyKing: do you have a digicam, white cardboard, a few lights?
<DannyKing> I did, my girlfriend has lost my camera. But I can borrow one easily enough. As for the lights I do right now, hopefully at university too (in 10 days)
<thorwil> DannyKing: no deadline. will take some time until we can even talk about milestones
<DannyKing> Great
<DannyKing> Are you suggesting we photograph things to base our icons on? (I think that's a very good idea)
<thorwil> DannyKing: i'm asking becasue i'm lacking the equipment, but feel that some photos could help us
<_MMA_> It would be *nice* to have some semblance of a set for Jaunty. But just as a community set.
<_MMA_> No push for default.
<DannyKing> I agree, although I'm not a good photographer. If we could get a talented photo guy that might really help
<DannyKing> _MMA_:  sounds like a good time frame
<_MMA_> DannyKing: Get me a list of items.
<DannyKing> That I'd like photographed?
<_MMA_> Si
<thorwil> _MMA_: varying folders, hard-drive, motherboard, cd
<thorwil> notebook, paper, pile of papers
<thorwil> all from varying angles
<DannyKing> Pens, pencils, mobile phones
<DannyKing> cameras
<DannyKing> leads ?
<DannyKing> Mice / Keyboards
<DannyKing> Monitors
<DannyKing> A good looking bin
<DannyKing> Envelopes
<DannyKing> Polaroid photograph ?
<DannyKing> USB sticks, SD cards, etc
<DannyKing> Speakers
<DannyKing> (stop me if I get annoying here)
<thorwil> maybe something for the mailing-list
<DannyKing> Mask (privacy icon?)
<DannyKing> As for the paper: scrunched up, ripped, close up (texture), folded, etc
<DannyKing> Perhaps a musical instrument for sound type icons
<thorwil> DannyKing: texture is easier to take from a scan
<DannyKing> True
<_MMA_> Yep.
<DannyKing> Pictures of folders would be good (odd we missed that)
<DannyKing> Books (new and old?)
<_MMA_> Google image search might be good for most of these as well.
<thorwil> DannyKing: we did not miss folders ;)
<DannyKing> Yeah, and flickr
<_MMA_> Maybe just a list of stuff we can't find?
<DannyKing> oops sorry thorwil
<thorwil> already tried search for folders. no good
<DannyKing> search manilla folder
<_MMA_> Well I think we're half-way there for folders anyway.
<thorwil> problem is, you need good angles and proper lighting. large images
<DannyKing> Yeah, that's the hard part
<_MMA_> That one will be up to kwwii as he will try to incorporate what Mark would like to see.
<thorwil> hmm?
<_MMA_> thorwil: The bottom up glow on the folders, that's one of the things Mark likes.
<_MMA_> kwwii was gonna revise further.
 * thorwil feels you could as well ask a 9 year old boy
<DannyKing> Uh oh, you've taken the lords name in vein ;)
<_MMA_> Well like I said I'd like a shot at default though we're not gonna bow to every whim. I'm also not gonna shoot ourselves in the foot from the start.
<DannyKing> As for the folder glow...
<DannyKing> How about a light being shon on it instead, rather than an inner glow? (at least that's physically possible!)
<DannyKing> shone *
<thorwil> what's the official term for those photography tables used for object photography? with lights on swane-necks(??) and a smooth curve between the floor and wall
<thorwil> ah, found the german term: http://www.powerrent.de/showshop/images/big/220.jpg
<thorwil> http://fototisch24.de/PKXXL5.JPG
<thorwil> diy: http://www.hobby-versand.ch/pic/aufntisch.jpg
<thorwil> pretty much a requirement for the kind of shots i have in mind
<_MMA_> Ahh...
<DannyKing> Looks good. I've done similar things for my web design work, though I usually just put white paper on the floor and shine a strong light on it, then GIMP out any issues. Your way is better
<_MMA_> Well, I didn't think we would get that involved but sure. :) Plan was to mix Oxygen/Human with what we had. Fix where needed.
 * _MMA_ starts to compose email.
<thorwil> _MMA_: lets just say that i think it would help quite a bit. also a shitload of work and asking for a budget
<_MMA_> The latter being something we don't have. :(
<thorwil> that was my point :)
<DannyKing> I think a call for help for a photographer on the forums might produce someone with the kit already
<DannyKing> Or aggressive trolling through flickr's creative commons search
<DannyKing> (is CC compatible with Ubuntu's licence for artwork?)
<_MMA_> Breathe is under CC-BY-SA3.0
<_MMA_> (one of Oxygens licenses)
<DannyKing> Okay good
<_MMA_> And fits fine with Ubuntu.
<_MMA_> I just had a PM with troy_s and told him I wouldn't talk about Breathe or icons unless he came in here. :P
 * _MMA_ starts to compose announcement email.
<DannyKing> Prototype two of my wooden icon: http://www.inkscapeforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1592&p=8383#p8383
<thorwil> hmm, the PDF letters are straight?
<DannyKing> Yeah... the text should have been wider at the top than the bottom (that's the older version I put there for comparison)
<DannyKing> Also the pdf icon should be stretched at the bottom
<thorwil> DannyKing: in the first image of the thread, i can see that the adobe logo has depth - which can't work like that in wood
<DannyKing> Yeah, that was the first prototype. I hadn't thought about it at the time. The letters also appeared raised when they should have been engraved
<thorwil> DannyKing: the material impression is pretty good. maybe try a bit lighter
<psyke83> kwwii: panel at default 24pt: http://connogriofa.googlepages.com/nm-applet_blurred.png
<psyke83> kwwii: panel at 26pt: http://connogriofa.googlepages.com/nm-applet_unblurred.png
<DannyKing> I'll try it out, thanks thorwil
<kwwii> psyke83: my bet is that the icon shown does not exist at 22x22
<kwwii> only 24x24
<kwwii> erm, or not at 16
<kwwii> or something like that
<psyke83> kwwii: I tried setting gtk-icon-size to 24,24 and it doesn't help
<kwwii> it looks like one is getting scaled
<thorwil> DannyKing: i hope you know what kind of wood it should be exactly ;)
<_MMA_> kwwii: Where's my folder!! :) I know you see me mentioning it. You're avoiding me. :P
<psyke83> gtk-icon-sizes = "panel-menu=24,24"
<kwwii> _MMA_: later tonight, I have band practice in a bit
<DannyKing> thorwil: ermmm... :p
<kwwii> psyke83: I would check in the source of nm-applet, I guess
<kwwii> see what sizes are available, what files are used
<kwwii> maybe it is a missing icon in the human-icon theme
<psyke83> kwwii: ok, will do. If I use the tangerine icon set, it doesn't seem to scale the icon
<DannyKing> The wood was taken from this image: http://flickr.com/photos/alexeya/134281183/   no idea what wood it is
<psyke83> (though it's a diferent icon, of course)
<psyke83> Tangerine seems only to have scalable icons
<psyke83> nm, sorry, it does have scaled
<DannyKing> thorwil: anyway, I've made the SVG so that the wood can easily be changed by simply inserting a different texture image
<DannyKing> It could be made metal in two minutes :)
<thorwil> DannyKing: from that texture, it seems to me that your result is too red
<DannyKing> Yeah I added colour to the texture. It looked /too/ real otherwise
<DannyKing> unphotoshopped as you said before
<thorwil> 640 x 480 and they call that large, pah! :)
<DannyKing> Actually that's the photographers fault. Flickr just put the largest possible photo on their large setting.
 * thorwil -> dinner
<_MMA_> Ok. Email away. Not my best but should get the point across.
 * DannyKing opens up gmail
<DannyKing> _MMA_: I like the template svg. Nice colour palette
<_MMA_> DannyKing: Pat thorwil on the back for that one.
<DannyKing> Good job thorwil
<_MMA_> There is also hidden layers to compare against the icons. Another thorwil idea.
<_MMA_> Background colors. ie: "Does this icon look right on top of this color?".
<DannyKing> Replied on the list
<DannyKing> Ooh nice touch, didn't notice those
<_MMA_> DannyKing: Preferably, the submissions should be saved in the same state they were downloaded in. Meaning what layers are there and hidden.
<DannyKing> Okay
<DannyKing> Might be an idea to add that to the instructional text
<_MMA_> Yeah. Or note on the wiki. And good reply. It will/should keep discussion going.
<DannyKing> Thanks
<DannyKing> Oh I've just noticed that the folder icon has a reflection at the bottom
<DannyKing> That's not a good idea I think, because some docks add their own reflection
<DannyKing> Also makes it harder to ensure the icon looks good against all background colours
<_MMA_> ? Shouldn't have one.
<DannyKing> Mmm true sorry, the version on the front page of the wiki does and I assumed it was the same
<_MMA_> ;)
<_MMA_>  /Icons will always be current
<DannyKing> Ok
<psyke83> kwwii: nm-applet is looking for the appropriate icons in the 22x22 folder, and can't find them, so grabs from the scalable files. Is it possible for us to fix this issue for 8.10?
<thorwil> DannyKing: thanks!
<DannyKing> :)
<DannyKing> thorwil: check the list and add your thoughts to the Breathe post
<_MMA_> thorwil: Made some revisions to the Breathe front page.
<_MMA_> DannyKing: Do you use windows or linux?
<DannyKing> Both
<DannyKing> I run OS X, Linux and Vista :)
<DannyKing> I need to test my websites on the three main OSs, you see
<_MMA_> Well, when using Inkscape. Generally.
<DannyKing> Normally Linux, but Windows a lot too. Windows is usually running on my laptop so it depends where I want to work
<_MMA_> DannyKing: Ok. Reason that I ask is that as you become comfortable with what we do and I as well as others trust you, I can add you to the breathe-dev team and that will give you upload rights to the main branch. *If* you like. Otherwise I'll just be a proxy.
<DannyKing> Eventually I'd like that very much, thanks :)
<DannyKing> But I'm happy to run everything through you too
<_MMA_> cool
<DannyKing> Ooh this is nice: http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/5184/ibexvz6.png
<DannyKing> Ryan from the list did it
<_MMA_> I'm not keen on the background but I like the etch/carved look on the Ibex.
<_MMA_> kwwii: You think if Breathe had it's own ML other non-ubuntu folk would be more apt to join? Seeings how the main list is kinda high-traffic and often off topic.
<_MMA_> Might be off-putting for some. Notably the Oxygen folk you said might be keen to working together?
<DannyKing> It might lessen the exposure for people to discover it
<_MMA_> DannyKing: If you focused on the base filetype icon, it would actually let me work on derivative icons fairly quickly.
<DannyKing> But I can see why it might be a good idea
<_MMA_> DannyKing: True. Im just throwing that idea out there.
<DannyKing> _MMA_: Yeah, I'd like to. I just need to finish up a website contract. I'm in the final stages... should be a few days
<_MMA_> There's alot of chat besides Breathe people might not care about.
<_MMA_> DannyKing: Ok. Cool. I'll keep that in mind. I'll poke you in a couple of days about it. :)
<DannyKing> Sure thing
<_MMA_> DannyKing: I guess take a stab at the notebook paper one as well.
<_MMA_> Ok. Im gonna play with the fam for a bit. Leave a message. :)
<ilembitov> Hi, all. Can anyone point me to screenshots to see how will 8.10 look like?
<emma> hi guys
<emma> anyone active here?
<emma> I just got some new updates in intrepid.
<emma> Wondering if the themes in this screenshot are going to be the new default in intrepid -- http://giving4paul.com
<ilembitov> emma: I've seen those many times before, and I don't believe they will be default. They are just way too retarded, sorry if I offend anyone
<emma> No I'm not offended. I just got these in the latest updates.
<emma> I am not making a jugement or complaining, I thought thought perhaps this would be the channel that knows how the intrepid will look :)
<DannyKing> I think the mailing list might get a better response emma
<emma> I sort of hope that there is a more snazzy wallpaper than that, and perhaps there is a different theme. I like the dark option but this is kind of intense if it's the default.
<DannyKing> I don't think anything has been decided (but I've only just started hanging out here)
<emma> The heron default wallpaper was so snazzy. I hope that Intrepid can have a default wallpaper that's upbeat like that.
<DannyKing> I've seen some pretty good ones so far
<DannyKing> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-art/2008-September/008014.html
<emma> That's very brown isn't it :)
<DannyKing> That's one of many unofficial wallpapers of that theme
<DannyKing> there are several other links on the list if you look. I don't think most people here get a say as to what's default in releases
<thorwil> noone here has a say in that, except kwwii
<thorwil> with the last word remaining with mr. shuttleworth
<emma> the art is more important than some people might realise.
<emma> if the goal is to attract new users who are not already linux enthusiasts.
<DannyKing> heh, well you're singing to the choir in this chan... ;)
<emma> For someone who's already a linux enthusiast, it's just an amusement, because those peole will quickly and easily change anything how they like.
<thorwil> ilembitov: regarding retarded, guess who is? i give you a tip. it's about joining a party of people and broadly insulting them all without knowing anything about what goes on
<emma> but for the larger target audience of Ubuntu, a beautiful artwork can really be a selling point.
<DannyKing> I agree
<DannyKing> A few of us are working on an icon theme to try and address that
<thorwil> emma: don't make me scream. who do you think you are sharing your wisdom with? color-blind coders?
<emma> hehe :)
 * DanaG just read a bunch of backlog....
<DanaG> Oooh, that red ibex is cool -- and less messy than the full-color one.
<DannyKing> Which?
<DanaG> http://dump.ambiescent.com/i/red-ibex.jpg
<DanaG> that one.
<DannyKing> Yeah that is good. I like how there is a crack in the wood near its head
<DanaG> But any others that use the same style for the ibex (as opposed to the full-color "splat" one) will hopefully be just as good.
<thorwil> DanaG: problem is the license of the background isn't clear, so we can't use it
<DanaG> Yeah, so it'd need a different background.
<DanaG> The full-color 'splat' reminds me of some sort of negative connotations... but I'm not quite sure what.
<dilomo> hi all I'm back for the weekend only
<thorwil> hi dilomo. welcome back for the weekend, then :)
<dilomo> :)
<dilomo> what's up around hert
<dilomo> here*
<thorwil> dilomo: well, Breathe has officially started now
<dilomo> cool
<thorwil> dilomo: a few people are playing with an ibex made by Rico. the fragmented one from a Dust mockup
<DanaG> The full-color ibex reminds me of graffiti or violent things, but the silhouette one reminds me of flower petals floating off a tree, or something.
<dilomo> aha so
<dilomo> trowil: is this going to be the default
<dilomo> wallpaper?
<thorwil> dilomo: i guess not, but how would i know?
<dilomo> It is good for sure
 * DannyKing agrees
<DanaG> There's just the license issue.
<dilomo> what issue?
<DanaG> "(12:13:36 PM) thorwil: DanaG: problem is the license of the background isn't clear, so we can't use it"
<thorwil> dilomo: strictly refering to the bg in http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/5246/redibexcb7.jpg
<thorwil> dilomo: i made http://bazaar.launchpad.net/%7Et-w-/ubuntu-artwork/thorwils_backgrounds/annotate/32?file_id=rsc_ibex_trivet.jpg-20080927154856-l2xo5c38l0j5uun8-4
<thorwil> and http://bazaar.launchpad.net/%7Et-w-/ubuntu-artwork/thorwils_backgrounds/annotate/32?file_id=rsc_ibex_woodblock.j-20080927154856-l2xo5c38l0j5uun8-6
<thorwil> dilomo: and a Ryan on the list: http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/3098/ibex1920x1440nc9.jpg
 * thorwil wished LP would use shoter links somehow
<DannyKing> You could use tinyurl.com
<dilomo> good job
<thorwil> DannyKing: here yes. on the list not for archival reasons
<thorwil> ty
<dilomo> I like all of them. Only the first one is too reddish
<dilomo> so is the ibex pattern separate?
<thorwil> yes
<dilomo> can I have it to try smth out?
<thorwil> http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/114190/2009 Dust/bare.png
<DanaG> gotta' love URLs with spaces...
<thorwil> dilomo: Rico offered it to all of us
<dilomo> thank you and him ;)
<DanaG> Block is too light, trivet is nice but a bit scratched up.... perhaps a stylistic choice?
<DanaG> That bare one is the full-color one; how do you get the silouhette one from it?
<thorwil> DanaG: to some degree. the wood is as the wood is ;)
<DanaG> Yeah, I meant the choice of what wood to photograph.
<thorwil> DanaG: layer modes in GIMP, gardation curves, transparency ...
<DanaG> Aah.
<thorwil> DanaG: to scan in my case. really not much choice here, but i'm quite happy with both versions
<thorwil> ah, rsc- you have been the topic here :)
<rsc-> yeah?
<rsc-> any juicy details I missed? :)
<thorwil> rsc-: seems everyone enjoys your fragmented ibex
<thorwil> rsc-: i hope you're ok with http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~t-w-/ubuntu-artwork/thorwils_backgrounds/files/32?file_id=ibex_rico_sta_cruz-20080927154856-l2xo5c38l0j5uun8-1
<rsc-_> thorwil, i just put it out there for everyone to have a whack at. everyone's free to do their own take of it :)
<rsc-_> i'm not a big fan of the inset effect though
<DanaG> I do like the original red ibex best; it just needs a correct-license background.
<rsc-_> sorry dana.
<DanaG> That could be a task for the mailing list: find nice wood textures to use.
<rsc-_> i lifted that background off starbucks.com
<rsc-_> i'm afraid i can't find a suitable free replacement for it
<DanaG> The others have changed more than the background.
<DanaG> Wood texture scavenger hunt.
<dilomo> we can make new one
<dilomo> and I think even better bg
<dilomo> tomorrow I'm going to shoot some bg
<dilomo> and make them available to you all
<rsc-_> i suggest keep the texture simple
<thorwil> cool. i really enjoy working with high-res textures
<rsc-_> the overbearing, very-detailed wood textures don't quite work too well.
<rsc-_> anyone remember Mayang?
<rsc-_> that site with lots of hires textures?
<rsc-_> man i miss that site. :(
<rsc-_> http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/3504/screenshot1pngwj2.jpg
<rsc-_> ^-- the composition with a gradient at the back
<rsc-_> quick-and-easy winner, yes?
<rsc-_> :p
<thorwil> no :)
<rsc-_> haha.
<rsc-_> what about using the elephant texture?
<rsc-_> ...that ubuntu ships with.
<rsc-_> .. /usr/share/backgrounds/simple-ubuntu.png
<thorwil> rsc-_: at least do an oval one, center in looking direction of the ibex. overlayed with slight left to right color change :)
<rsc-_> oval?
<rsc-_> a distorted radial gradient you mean?
<thorwil> yes
<thorwil> radial might do it, actually
<DanaG> http://h50146.www5.hp.com/products/portables/personal/zen_wallpaper/ -- hmm, HP has some cool things.
<rsc-_> not feeling it :/
<DanaG> Yeah, I do still prefer my own wallpapers.  Sure beats the defaults in Windows, though.
<DanaG> mebae_01 is kind of a nice color, but doesn't look like real woodgrain.
<dilomo> so what kind of wood are we talking about?
<dilomo> a scattered one or smooth one
<thorwil> dilomo: wouldn't hurt to have a whole set
<dilomo> :) ok
<DannyKing> I like this wood: http://willwill100.deviantart.com/art/Interpid-Ibex-Mockup-Part-2-93584910
<dilomo> because I'm going to a village of mine and there is a lot of different textures wood old paint  ...
<dilomo> DannyKing: this is old and as far as I know it is under copyright
<DannyKing> Ah
<thorwil> Nece228: don't ever dare to PM me again
<DannyKing> ?
<Nece228> thorwil: its a private talk
<thorwil> <Nece228> im angry that you are calling me troll just because i asked question two times
<thorwil> <Nece228> in fact in forum you didnt show me respect
<thorwil> <Nece228> and saying that im harmful makes me feel even worse
<thorwil> <Nece228> makes me feel even worse about you
<Nece228> thorwil: im not gonna say this to public
<thorwil> _MMA_: ^
<Nece228> thorwil: and you acted like a kid
<rsc-_> Nece228, if he doesn't want to be talked to in private, either you talk to him in public or not at all.
<Nece228> rsc- but he should not paste to public what ive said
<thorwil> Nece228: either stand for it or don't say it
<rsc-_> "this is a shame. i have been following the art mailing list for a while and it's really disappointing the amount of compromises that are being made each day (dust theme for example)" <-- from the forums. heh :)
<_MMA_> Nece228: It's very common for people to not want to talk in private. It helps to avoid issues of "but he said this".
<Nece228> _MMA_ but he should respect me like a human
<_MMA_> Nece228: So you either respect the request, talk publicly, or say nothing.
 * DanaG goes off to reboot to new kernel...
<thorwil> good night for the good people here! :)
<Nece228> _MMA_ you needed to say that before
<DanaG> Sat Sep 27 13:02:05 PDT 2008
<DanaG> yay, /exec
<Nece228> thorwil: but the hell you calling me harmful
<rsc-_> on another note.
<rsc-_> does anyone know what "5 a day" is?
<DanaG> servings of fruit?
<DanaG> or bread?
<_MMA_> rsc-_: It's bug triaging.
<DanaG> 5 a day keeps the doctor away?
<DanaG> Oh,
<DanaG> .
<Nece228> after all i think its the worst ubuntu channel
<Nece228> bye]
<rsc-_> http://willwill100.deviantart.com/art/Ibex-Wallpaper-94885227
<rsc-_> probably copyrighted.
 * _MMA_ looks.
<rsc-_> i even doubt he made that wallpaper. it looks like another wallpaper i've seen before, but recolored
<_MMA_> Exactly.
<BHSPitLappy> because it is
<rsc-_> how unfortunate :/
<_MMA_> rsc-_: There's *so* many variants of it. There is links to the author but its doubtful.
<_MMA_> s/is/are
<rsc-_> mm-hmm
<BHSPitLappy> who keeps their shopping list as a pdf
<BHSPitLappy> I mean, seriously
<_MMA_> rsc-_: Note. This is *real* quick work but I had a quick go at one. http://mma.users.ubuntustudio.org/floor_gray.png
<rsc-_> BHSPitLappy, who?
<BHSPitLappy> rsc-_, look at that mockup again
<rsc-_> _MMA_: i'm sure it can work with some tweaking
<BHSPitLappy> repaste: http://willwill100.deviantart.com/art/Interpid-Ibex-Mockup-Part-2-93584910
<_MMA_> rsc-_: Yeah. It needs its tone evened out. Might be better to start with a different sample.
<rsc-_> ugh jesus
<rsc-_> i dont understand the ruckus around that mockup
<rsc-_> i mean, okay, cool... gnome-do + avant
<BHSPitLappy> it's appley
<BHSPitLappy> people have their applegasms and clamor for it
<rsc-_> but everything else are just applets, an impossible gnome menu, and an uninspired gtk theme
<rsc-_> i think i lost some respect for the community after all the "omg drool" feedback on that
<_MMA_> haha. "applegasms" My desktop atm. http://mma.users.ubuntustudio.org/Screenshot.png "Appley" sure but fits my workflow.
<_MMA_> Not that far from default Studio setup.
<_MMA_> AWN is the biggest thing.
<dilomo> nice bg
<dilomo> did you do it yourself
<rsc-_> _MMA_, any reason for the preference for hinted fonts?
<rsc-_> just curious.
<rsc-_> also: http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/5897/testfd1.jpg
<rsc-_> also: nice inkscape icon.
<_MMA_> rsc-_: I think I use full hinting but I cant really speak with any credulity as to what things *should* be. Just looks fine to me. :)
<_MMA_> dilomo: It's a work of an artists I'm working with for Studio.
<dilomo> it's very good
<dilomo> congrats
<dilomo> have a good night everybody (or at least me :) )
<PRGUY85> where do you suggest the current community themes head to after they were included in the community-theme package?
<_MMA_> Cimi kwwii: Looks like a new bug as a direct result of my current Murrine pet peeve. Bug 275271 (removal of stripes on tabs)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 275271 in human-theme "NewHuman: Lack of usability - active tab should have some extra visual clue" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/275271
<_MMA_> rsc-_: Is that new link using my wood image?
<psyke83> kwwii: still here? The icons that nm-applet rely on are only available in 24x24 size (they're not even available as .svg files). This means that the 24x24 sizes are selected instead of the Tango fallback, making things ugly. Can we fix this? Are there other sources of the Human icons that aren't in the package?
<kwwii> psyke83: hrm, nope...there are no other sources
<kwwii> the only thing we could do is to redraw the icon at that size
<psyke83> kwwii: if we delete the icon, then the tango fallback is used properly...
<kwwii> psyke83: except we don't install tango by default
<andreasn> psyke83: do you mean hicolor?
<andreasn> what does it look like?
<psyke83> kwwii, hrm, I thought we did... but in any case, the gnome fallback is also available and looks good
<kwwii> psyke83: yeah, depending on where else that icon is used
<psyke83> kwwii: I'm not sure if it's a bug, because nm-applet seems to ignore the 24x24 icons in favor of the 22x22, and scales the 24x24 to 22x22 (despite fallbacks from other icon themes being available)... that happens even when I use the gtk-icon-size parameter in the gtkrc
 * _MMA_ votes for a redraw. Shouldn't be too hard.
<psyke83> _MMA_, three or four icons will need redrawing, then
<DannyKing> I don't suppose anyone knows a way around having to restart X after plugging in a wacom tablet to get it work properly
<DannyKing> ?
<psyke83> DannyKing, wrong channel. Check #ubuntu for the answer. If you're using Hardy, hotplugging should work
<DannyKing> Thanks
<kwwii> _MMA_: I figured out one thing that was missed when making the template
<kwwii> the plates need to start on a major grid line
<DanaG> ooh, I like the new gdm theme.
<psyke83> kwwii: will I file a bug for nm-applet for you?
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-09-28
<_MMA_> kwwii: Really? Why?
<Cimi> kwwii, ping
<kwwii> erm, yeah, he should have filed a bug....oh well
<kwwii> _MMA_: because it makes it much easier to work on
<kwwii> Cimi: pong
<_MMA_> kwwii: Ill talk to you tomorrow about it.
<_MMA_> err... My tomorrow. :)
<DannyKing> What time is it over there, _MMA_?
<kwwii> about 8:30pm I would guess
<kwwii> for losers in the land of a the fee and the slave
<kwwii> :p
<DannyKing> hehe
<DannyKing> 7 hours ahead of me
<DanaG> Sat Sep 27 17:37:14 PDT 2008
<DannyKing> oops, 19 hours ahead actually
<kwwii> erm, that is not possible :-)
 * DannyKing sighs. It's 1:30am here and he is clearly too tired to think in 12s ;)
<kwwii> lol
<kwwii> so you are in the UK?
<DannyKing> Yep, somewhere in the middle
<DannyKing> Yourself?
<DannyKing> Let me guess, South Africa?
<kwwii> German-land
<DannyKing> ahh far off :)
<DannyKing> Your English is excellent
<kwwii> same time zone though :-)
<kwwii> well, I's to being an American
<DannyKing> heh, oh that's cheating.
<kwwii> sssshhhhh, don't tell the others
<DannyKing> lol.
<kwwii> I doubt there are many germans named Kenneth ;-)
<kwwii> kinda hard for them so say
<DannyKing> true!
<DannyKing> You work for Canonical right?
<kwwii> as a test I make them say my name three times fast
<DannyKing> heh
<kwwii> yes, I have the extreme pleasure of being employed by Canonical
<DannyKing> I was going to ask how it was but no need!
<DannyKing> Sounds like a dream job from what I've read on the list :)
<kwwii> I am a night of the canonical round table, so to speak
<kwwii> erm, knight :p
<kwwii> lol, there goes my english
<DannyKing> Have you ever met God, then? (Mr. Shuttleworth)
<DannyKing> Use the 1:30am excuse, worked for me.
<DannyKing> There was a prime time news story on him here a few weeks ago
<kwwii> lol, have I ever met him :-)
<kwwii> yes, I meet him quite often
<kwwii> every couple of months at the least
<DannyKing> Do you have a special handshake for millionaires in that case? ;)
<kwwii> if I was a knight that would imply that I earn all the money while I subject others to my military control and make them work for me
<kwwii> good idea...we could call it the "artwork community"
<DannyKing> lol, well - the community enjoys it.
<kwwii> you know the funny thing about making your hobby your job?
<kwwii> you gotta find a new hobby
<DannyKing> ha, I never thought about that
<DannyKing> Did you find one?
<kwwii> of course work is no fun, no matter what you do...otherwise they wouldn't pay you for it, and they would call it "fun"
<kwwii> yepp, I play in a band again
<kwwii> :-)
<DannyKing> Oh cool, what sort of band?
 * DannyKing is a bassist
<kwwii> really old pre-punk stuff
<DannyKing> cool.
<kwwii> yeah, I am really old
<DannyKing> Hah don't worry about it, I listen to funk and that's older
<kwwii> half the time people think we write all our own music when the half of it is covers they have never heard
<kwwii> jono put it best when he said "well, at least it is not that shite american punk"
<_MMA_> Jesus. You guys are up late.
<DannyKing> heh
<DannyKing> _MMA_:  Yeah, I don't know why either. I keep going to sleep at silly times
<DannyKing> 5am yesterday :\
<_MMA_> Ouch.
<DannyKing> I work better in the early hours I guess
<kwwii> _MMA_: yepp, and I promised the little lady pancakes in the morning
<DannyKing> Luckily I can sleep in 'till late since I'm technically on holiday
<_MMA_> And btw, Shuttleworth ain't nobody. Puts his pants on the same way as you. ;)
<kwwii> oh, working from home is the perfect answer to the question of why do we get up in the morning
 * _MMA_ gets up at 7am regardless because of the rugrats.
<kwwii> yepp....he's real people, like you and me
<kwwii> _MMA_: I spent the evening working on the folder
<DannyKing> I don't find that hard to believe... he funds the best distro after all :)
<kwwii> _MMA_: but nothing much came out of it, other than another attempt at a different angle which didn't work
<DannyKing> kwwii: what angle were you thinking of using?
<DannyKing> Did you see the post on the list?
<kwwii> DannyKing: nope, I have been avoiding email all day
<DannyKing> _MMA_: did an official announcement of breathe
<kwwii> email=evil
<kwwii> on the weekdays I get paid to read it :-)
<DannyKing> haha
<kwwii> to some extent, "staying in touch" and "communication" is over-rated if you ask me :p
<kwwii> DannyKing: have you ever hung out around the oxygen channel?
<DannyKing> nope, I've only recently started joining freenode channels
<DannyKing> Been lurking in here and in #inkscape for a week or so
<kwwii> cool, I just read your email to the list
<_MMA_> kwwii: Keep the angle for now. Refine it with Marks likes in mind.
<kwwii> _MMA_: yeah, and I was playing around with something new which simply didn't work
<kwwii> _MMA_: I bet I have drawn 50 folders in my life and in the end the truth is, that there are only a few perspectives that work
<_MMA_> kwwii: But I don't wanna keep ya talking about it now. Its late.
<DanaG> What angle?
<kwwii> I was trying a frontal 3D with the folder somewhat open
<DanaG> Aah.  As long as it's not slanty like Fedora's icons...
<_MMA_> DanaG: Why? What would you do?
 * DannyKing listens
<kwwii> the problem is that the different sizes will look quite different unless you do something like that
 * DanaG digs up a screenshot:
<_MMA_> DanaG: Would you stop using Ubuntu over a folder icon? Or would you make a submission?
<kwwii> make things isographic (I think that is the right word)
<kwwii> or frontal 2D
<DanaG> https://fedorahosted.org/bluecurve/
<DanaG> I find it odd if I have flat menus... with slanty icons.
<_MMA_> kwwii: We agreed today to use a different perspective at smaller sizes where needed.
<DanaG> Plus, when I tried Fedora, I ended up with mixed styles within the same menu.  :(
<kwwii> _MMA_: sure, you have to or it won't work at all
<kwwii> trust me, three years ago we tested a lot of different angles when we made the oxygen folders
<DannyKing> kwwii: So do you suggest a flat style for all folders?
<kwwii> and things can change over time, the point is to get something that explains the style, then you can tweak parts
<kwwii> DannyKing: no, but that simply works best, to be honest
<_MMA_> kwwii: Thats why for now, I don't plan on straying to far from Oxygen. Just fixing where needed. Im sure you'll help point out issues. :)
<kwwii> we could do something like more and more rotation the bigger it is
<DanaG> Then you have Vista... which points the icons AWAY from the user.
<DanaG> =Ã¾
<kwwii> the thing is, at small sizes the best angles are 33 and 45
<kwwii> and circles are bad on the outside (not sure why I added that)
<_MMA_> kwwii: Just evolve KenV's icon when you have time. I think it's the best thing we got atm.
<kwwii> _MMA_: well, that is part of the issue
<_MMA_> SOmething we can look at for a bit. Im sure there will be more changes with time.
<kwwii> his icon is not rastered at all, so I end up redrawing it now matter what
<_MMA_> huh?
<kwwii> at 256 it doesn't matter but at 64 and below it does
<kwwii> it is just scaled randomly, not everything is in pixel values
<kwwii> that is typical of the artwork of uninformed desktop designers :-)
<_MMA_> Ill have to see exactly what you mean over Skype later.
<_MMA_> But for sure, what I put in the SVG on the wiki was everything he drew. 48px was scaled from 256.
<_MMA_> But below wasn't.
<kwwii> but the objects and lines (in the big version at least) do not have points that lie on even numbers
<_MMA_> Then we'll just have to move it around a bit. :)
<_MMA_> What you're talking about might actually be my fault. The alignment anyway.
<kwwii> learn the power of the raster force and sharper and more understandable will the world of exported graphics be, my young padawan
<DannyKing> even numbered what, sorry?
<kwwii> DannyKing: make sure the nodes of objects are snapped to a pixel grid
<DannyKing> Okay - I didn't know that caused issues
<_MMA_> kwwii: I await the folder done right from you for me to use as a guide. ;)
<kwwii> and make sure lines lie inside the pixel borders
<DannyKing> Is that because there are issues if a line is 1.5px wide, for example?
<kwwii> _MMA_: leck mich
<_MMA_> kwwii: It's not an insult if the recipient doesn't get it. ;)
<kwwii> DannyKing: in svg a 1 pixel line will have half the line outside the object and one inside
<kwwii> erm, half inside
<kwwii> DannyKing: which, in my mind sucks
<kwwii> I was used to illustrator
<DannyKing> Understood
<kwwii> so if you have an object with a half transparent fill and half-transparent line it does funky things you might not want
<kwwii> and things don't raster as well, if you look at tango, they use lines a lot
<kwwii> and they have simple icons so it works
<kwwii> but with photrealistic stuff you stay away from lines, mainly
<kwwii> like every rule, that gets broken a lot
<kwwii> it is like cheating on a test
<kwwii> :-)
<DannyKing> lines being strokes in Inkscape?
<_MMA_> kwwii: I'm sure all your glorious Oxygen experience will be a brilliant guidepost for us to follow.
<kwwii> DannyKing: yes, exactly
<DannyKing> Ah okay
<DannyKing> I'll remember that thanks :)
<kwwii> _MMA_: like I said, leck mich
<kwwii> _MMA_: when you figure that out, let me know
<kwwii> :p
<DannyKing> Bah, I'm making silly mistakes with my code. I'm going to bed
<DannyKing> Good night all
<kwwii> DannyKing: if you are serious about making icons, I can help
<DannyKing> I'm serious in a hobbist kind of way, yes :)
<kwwii> so stay in touch
<kwwii> :-)
<_MMA_> kwwii: I know what it means. You've said it a 100 times.
<DannyKing> Thanks, I will
<_MMA_> kwwii: Read back today. Danny has been quite active and hopefully will be a great contributor.
<kwwii> _MMA_: yeah, I followed the talk today but didn't have time to chat
<_MMA_> kwwii: And with that, my wife would like to "leck mich". :P
<kwwii> my wife was pissy that I never do anything around the house
<kwwii> lol
<_MMA_> Get some rest man. :)
<kwwii> dude, the whole saying is "leck mich am Arsch"
<kwwii> so, lick my asshole
<_MMA_> Yes. I know.
<kwwii> but your wife sounds kinky
<_MMA_> Da
<_MMA_> Si
<kwwii> yeah, time for sleep
<kwwii> see you soon
<_MMA_> Pick you "yes". :)
<_MMA_> Night.
<kwwii> all your base are belong to us or whatever
<thorwil> bonjour nand
<DannyKing> Hello
<kwwii> hi DannyKing
<DannyKing> Hello, sorry, went for coffee
 * _MMA_ waves but can't hang out. I'll be playing Lego Batman with the kids. :P I might be around later.
<DannyKing> :)
 * kwwii watches formula one racing in singapore
<rsc-> is it possible to override the border_width of Gtk.VBox on a gtkrc?
<rsc-> :/
<darkmatter> rsc-_: depends on the VBox. It's also dependent on whether or not the application developer is a HIG fascist :P
<darkmatter> and unfortunately I wasn't joking. the results aren't exactly consistent
<thorwil> hello!
<thorwil> _MMA_: sorry about yesterday, would have handled that differently but i was writing an email and about to log-off
<DannyKing> hi thorwil
 * thorwil waves
<thorwil> hi rsc-
<rsc-> hola, thorwil
<rsc-> anything new?
<thorwil> rsc-: what do you think about changing the briefing of kyudo to make it all about video applications?
<rsc-> what?
<rsc-> is this in reference to the off-topic discussions on the ML?
<thorwil> yep
<rsc-> you've gotta be kidding, right
<thorwil> the mailing list is so terrible useful
<rsc-> er... terribly useful, you mean? or am I missing an in-joke?
<rsc-> hehe
<thorwil> rsc-: at the moment i fell that i should only adress you, DannyKing, Cory and Kenneth. Plus dilomo and Ken V if they were around
<rsc-> thorwil, and Troy?
<thorwil> rsc-: oh, right. but he was wise enough to unsubscribe from the list
<rsc-> it'd be quite "elitist" to just adress a few people, but I wouldn't mind
<rsc-> 1) people who get it are hard to come by
<rsc-> 2) formulating a vision and briefing doesn't require everyone's help, and factoring in *everyone's* inputs may actually be detrimental to the process
<rsc-> Kyudo is still ironing out the "higher-level" stuff, i.e., vision, audience, direction, et cetera. wider participation can happen once that's all sorted out
<thorwil> rsc-: 1) is so true. on 2) problem is that i don't want to be all alone, as i have to make sure it is not just my personal vision
<thorwil> rsc-: but i should stop complaining and get back to be productive :)
<rsc-_> oops. I got disconnected after "Kyudo is still ironing out the "higher-level" stuff, i.e., vision, audience, direction, et cetera. wider participation can happen once that's all sorted out"
<thorwil> rsc-: 1) is so true. on 2) problem is that i don't want to be all alone, as i have to make sure it is not just my personal vision
<thorwil> rsc-: but i should stop complaining and get back to be productive :)
<thorwil> was all
<_MMA_> Or enjoying you Sunday.
<_MMA_> :P
<_MMA_> *your
<thorwil> _MMA_: already had a long cycling tour and cake! ;p
<_MMA_> :)
 * _MMA_ is mostly hanging out with the family. Just stopped to look at email.
<_MMA_> bbl
<Borzo> so... what can one do to help?
<rsc-_> you can contribute to the Breathe icon set.
<thorwil> Borzo: now that's a good start :) depends on your skills, experience and interest
<rsc-_> and eventually Kyudo once it's off it's feet :)
<thorwil> Borzo: you may want to tell us a bit about your background
<Borzo> my skills... well I am comfortable with GIMP and Inkscape
 * Borzo is looking at the /me is looking at the breathe iconset as we speak... are there any guidelines?
<Borzo> oops
<Borzo> :)
<thorwil> Borzo: guidelines are under discussion
<Borzo> sorry daughter distracting
<rsc-_> no set guidelines for now
<rsc-_> it's still at it's infancy.
<thorwil> Borzo: are you on the mailing list?
<Borzo> thorwil : - yes
<Borzo> thorwil: but just started
<thorwil> Borzo: the "Breathe - The beginning thread" is all there is, right now
<rsc-_> if you know GTK, you can also contribute bugfixes to the Dust theme :P :P
<thorwil> Borzo: the templates for the icons contain a set of background colors on which the icon should look good. also includes a palette of colors taken from the human ico set
<thorwil> Borzo: but not even lighting and perspective are decided on
<Borzo> thorwil: allright, so is there any specific icons with priority?
<thorwil> Borzo: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/BreatheIconSet/Icons
<Borzo> rsc-_ : no GTK knowlege at this time sorry :)
<thorwil> Borzo: it's all plain Oxygen icons to be replaced, except the folder icon. It has been created by Ken V and we are waiting on a revision from ken W :)
<Borzo> thorwil : ok
<thorwil> Borzo: you should read https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-art/2008-September/008016.html and the next 2
<Borzo> thorwil : thanks, will do
<thorwil> Borzo: oh, and did you see the Kyudo announcement, or did you come in later?
<rsc-__> haha, this is cute. people are making derivatives of the Dust idea.
<Borzo> thorwil: you mean on the list? I have part of the Kyudo thread
<rsc-__> http://gnome-look.org/content/show.php/MurrineDust+Colors?content=90410
<thorwil> Borzo: it would be nice if you would read https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/KyudoGuidelines
<Borzo> thorwil: I read the parts i got in my e-mail :)
<thorwil> Borzo: i know it's a bit much and rather dry, but it should give a good idea about what we are trying to do. any feedback is welcome
<thorwil> Borzo: we are also open to contributions on that theoretical level, if you feel comfortable there
<Borzo> thorwil: I will read it, please forgive me If I ask a question that has some obvious answer. I may not understand everything 100% as english is not my native language :)
 * thorwil sacrifices a scribbled chicken to ease the gods of the network for a better connection for rsc-__ 
<rsc-___> yeah. shitty dsl :(
<rsc-___> Borzo, that's okay. a lot of the contributors come from different countries
<thorwil> Borzo: most here are non-native speakers, me too. questions are necessary :)
<Borzo> thorwil : thanks :)
<rsc-___> anyone got an opinion on this dust-inspired theme vs. plain-old dust?
<rsc-___> http://gnome-look.org/content/preview.php?preview=1&id=90410&file1=90410-1.png&file2=90410-2.png&file3=&name=MurrineDust+Colors&PHPSESSID=b8ce9e430a994ef582db15f3c3312c2f
<thorwil> Borzo: contributors from varying nations are a plus, as our audience is all around the world
<rsc-___> vs. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/DustTheme?action=AttachFile&do=view&target=dust-0917-screenshot.jpg
<thorwil> rsc-___: must be for suse :)
<rsc-___> thorwil, haha. why?
<thorwil> loud green
<thorwil> rsc-___: your scrollbars are better. they started from an older revision?
<rsc-___> meh.everyone hates my scrollbars
<rsc-___> haha.
<rsc-___> i dont think they worked from my theme... maybe they just took the Metacity buttons and worked from there
 * DannyKing just got back
<thorwil> well, i guess derivatives are a good sign
<DannyKing> Can I just clarify, am I right in thinking that Kyundo is intended to be a theme whereas breathe is intended to be an icon set that may be considered for inclusion in Kyundo? Or have I misunderstood?
<DannyKing> By theme I mean everything from icons to gtk themes
<thorwil> DannyKing: kyudo is about guidelines and a design process with the first goal being a theme
<Borzo> I wanted to ask the same question :)
<DannyKing> Okay, that's what I was thinking, thanks
<DannyKing> thorwil: about above, I'm with you on breathe so don't worry about it being a personal-only project. Although how soon I can start actually contributing artwork I'm unsure about due to starting uni
<Borzo> will Kyudo affect the user's web experience aswell?
<DannyKing> Borzo: for example?
<Borzo> I mean the ubuntu webpage looks
<Borzo> will it standarize the whole image of ubuntu?
<DannyKing> Ah, no
<DannyKing> Canocial decides that, this is just a community project
<thorwil> DannyKing: Breathe was started independently, with goals on a different level. but as an icon set is such a huge task, there should only be one
<DannyKing> (as in, not much influence)
<Borzo> ah ok
<DannyKing> thorwil: Okay, I agree. Makes sense
<DannyKing> Borzo: at least, that's my understanding. I'm brand new in here
<thorwil> DannyKing: the personal-only worry is strictly about kyudo. breathe is _MMA_ baby :)
<DannyKing> Ah, understood.
<thorwil> Borzo: long term kyudo should influence everything. but to have a chance there, the project has to prove istelf with a theme
<Borzo> well, since there is talk about marketing in kyudo, it seems logical for me to have a unified look when looking from a marketing perspective. That's why I asked
<thorwil> Borzo: yes. a unified look would be required to have the strongest possible message
 * Borzo goes back to reading on Kyudo
<DannyKing> So what do you do thorwil, besides working on community artwork?
 * DannyKing is a young web developer in the making
<thorwil> DannyKing: working a crappy half-day job i don't even want to talk about ;)
<DannyKing> heh ok :)
<thorwil> is Sebastian Porta here?
<Borzo> so all the icons with a "Needs Replaced" tag are to be replaced, am I understanding this correctly?
<DannyKing> Yes, what is there currently is not breathe at all, but oxygen - we're using it as inspiration
<DannyKing> The folder icon is currently suggested as a possible starting point
<Borzo> ok, thanks, just making things clear
<DannyKing> Although I'm not 100% with it
<DannyKing> Borzo: the current thoughts are to make hyper-realistic icons
<Borzo> any reason for that?
<Borzo> i see
<DannyKing> I don't think it's realistic enough, but that's just my own opinion (I think it's a brilliant icon, dont' get me wrong.)
<DannyKing> One idea that was suggested by _MMA_  (he's the leader of the project) which I really like was to use for the paper icon a page torn from a ring binder that has imperfections like any paper on your desk
<DannyKing> But all of this is up for discussion on the list, we have no defined /anything/ just yet :p
<thorwil> my own problem with the folder icon is thati think it's hard to make other icons match
<kwwii> I am going to play with the folder again tonight
<DannyKing> Hi kwwii
<Borzo> brb
<kwwii> hi DannyKing
 * DannyKing wants to stress he does like the icon, he just thinks that its style is in contrast with the ideas on the list about style
<thorwil> working on a sunday evening, you are hardcore kwwii ;)
 * kwwii cooks schnitzel, then works :-)
<DannyKing> brb
<Borzo> schnitzel == good
<thorwil> longest underscore tail i ever saw
<rsc-______> whoaa
<rsc-> internet connection fail
<rsc-> so whats up? did i miss anything?
<thorwil> rsc-: not really. Kenneth is cooking schnitzel, though
<savvas> schnitzel for the kernel? :p
<thorwil> savvas: do you call your belly kernel?
<savvas> I'm transhumanized
<savvas> I run on linux and dog parts :p
<savvas> maybe the dog parts aren't a good addition in transhumanisation.. but the linux kernel would be a heck of an improvement :)
<thorwil> heh
<savvas> imagine having an extra cpu to do the legwork hehe
<DannyKing> border: 1px solid gold;  That's the most expensive CSS setting I've seen
<thorwil> heh
 * thorwil has high hopes an a gtk css theme-engine
<DannyKing> That would be nice, I'd look into theme making if it was such an easy transition from web development
<rsc-> @app('nautilus') vbox button:focus { padding: 2px; background-image: url(button.png); outline: solid 2px red; }
<rsc-> ;)
 * rsc- wishes
<rsc-> speaking of webdev, can anyone critique on a recent work of mine?
<rsc-> http://dump.ambiescent.com/i/0809-clutterrific.jpg
<rsc-> still unsure on a few things
<savvas> I think the plain background without vertical stripes is better
<rsc-> oh no
<rsc-> those stripes are just... guide lines
<rsc-> they wont be there in the final version
<thorwil> phew
<savvas> ah, a grid? :P
<thorwil> rsc-: that page clearly says business
<rsc-> yes a grid
<savvas> yep, it's great :)
<thorwil> rsc-: is that supposed to be a paper-clip top left?
<thorwil> rsc-: it's getting a bit much to the right
 * thorwil -> dinner
<rsc-> yep, that was a paperclip.
<rsc-> welcome back DannyKing
<DannyKing> Thanks, don't know what happened :\
<DannyKing> hola PRGUY85
<PRGUY85> que tal DannyKing
<DannyKing> Very good thanks, and you?
<PRGUY85> good testing out Fedora 10
<DannyKing> What's it like?
<PRGUY85> its kinda similar to Ubuntu really, the artwork is 10x better though
<PRGUY85> have you seen the theme for the 10th release?
<DannyKing> I don't think so, have you got a link?
<PRGUY85> sure thing: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Artwork/F10Themes/Solar
<DannyKing> Thanks :)
<PRGUY85> I liked it so much I am right now using Shiki Colors (Blue) with that wallpaper
<DannyKing> Looks pretty good
<PRGUY85> yea
<DannyKing> I like the consistency between everything
<PRGUY85> they make a mission of bringing about new themes for each release and have contests, etc.
<DannyKing> Hey, what's an 'icon' in Spanish?
<PRGUY85> still keeping with the blue fedora colors
<PRGUY85> hmmm
<PRGUY85> that's a hard one
<PRGUY85> icono
<DannyKing> Am gracias :)
<DannyKing> NASA release their images into the public domain I think - some great images of the earth and other planets
<PRGUY85> but that's a stylized version
<PRGUY85> and it has night/day cycle too
<PRGUY85> to tell you the truth I have tested intrepid and Im not that impressed
 * DannyKing hasn't tried it out - what don't you like?
<PRGUY85> some of the great innovations are coming from the gnome 2.24 release.
<PRGUY85> it seems like hardy really with little additions here and there.  I think they really much need at least a try to make a new theme progression in order to validate mark's cry to the linux world to compete with Mac
<DannyKing> You're speaking purely visually I guess (look & feel) ?
<DannyKing> or technically too?
<PRGUY85> look and feel in terms of theme
<DannyKing> Yeah I think a lot of people feel the way you do
<savvas> hm.. shouldn't we have a grub theme too?
<PRGUY85> technically speaking the release is sound in terms of the network connections and some of the gnome 2.24 innovations
<PRGUY85> they should really work that Empathy addition.  In its current form its great since it integrates with the desktop
<PRGUY85> and I kinda like packagekit as default for the system
<DannyKing> What's packagekit?
<PRGUY85> packagekit is a system that serves for updating/installing software
<PRGUY85> and that works as frontend for apt-get, yum, and many other different package systems
<PRGUY85> its a uniform way to install software on all major linux distributions and its quite simple.
<DannyKing> Oh I see, sounds good
<PRGUY85> DannyKing, you've got any hope that there will be a new default theme?
<DannyKing> For Intrepid? I'm pretty new here so I don't know much, but from what I've read noone seems optimistic
<PRGUY85> yea
 * DannyKing would like it
<PRGUY85> I have been working on New Wave with Dilomo, at least it will go in community theme package
<PRGUY85> the new default wallpaper for Intrepid is kinda unexpected.
<DannyKing> But then again I tend to use ubuntu studio's theme
<aantn> DannyKing: same, but you seem to be right about it not happening
<DannyKing> Cool
<aantn> PRGUY85: what ts it?
<PRGUY85> aantn, let me post the link
<PRGUY85> http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_hoL9qH83NDM/SN4A7siJJII/AAAAAAAAAGo/aBOC51po01M/s1600-h/warty-final-ubuntu.png
 * aantn suspects he already saw it and didn't realize
<PRGUY85> there you all go
<aantn> erm, that doesn't seem right
<aantn> kwwii: ping
<aantn> PRGUY85: why is the file name "warty-final-ubuntu.png"?
<PRGUY85> aantn, no idea
<PRGUY85> aantn, I just tried the latest intrepid nightly build (released yesterday) and it defaults with that wallpaper and the Human theme
<PRGUY85> be right back
<aantn> PRGUY85: ouch
<PRGUY85> aantn, yes its not awful but not what expected.
<PRGUY85> I hope by beta they make the theme issue clear seeing as how they promised it for hardy and delayed it for intrepid
<aantn> PRGUY85: maybe five years ago
<aantn> (the wallpaper)
<PRGUY85> and now I don't see it even on the proposed/accepted features for intrepid
<rsc-> what are we talking about here?
<rsc-> new theme?
<PRGUY85> rsc-, yes sorry to bring it up
<aantn> rsc-: and the wallpaper
<rsc-> what about the wallpaper?
<rsc-> Isn't it still open?
<PRGUY85> yea
<rsc-> cool.
<rsc-> lets pick a nice photo from wiki commons and get it over with
<rsc-> LOL
<DannyKing> heh
<aantn> rsc-: :)
<rsc-> seriously though
<rsc-> i can't believe the bitching on the theme :/
<aantn> rsc-: yeah :(
<rsc-> the most vocal ones are the whiners
<aantn> I'd love to see dust as default
<rsc-> not happening, unfortunately
<aantn> rsc-: I know :(
<rsc-> (esp. with openoffice really ugly on it!)
<PRGUY85> sorry to whine rsc-
<rsc-> PRGUY85, oh sorry i wasn't talking about you
<rsc-> if you check on the forums, there are a bunch of posts like "can't they stop trying to fix small bugs and just get on with making a theme?"
<PRGUY85> no, that is a stupid thought I know.
<rsc-> which is quite a short-sighted comment IMHO
<rsc-> but after having a little more experience here, I can say theming Ubuntu is no easy task :/
<PRGUY85> but we have been using pretty much same theme for a long time, Human Murrine was nice but  I think that after 6-7 releases there should be a change or something
<PRGUY85> I know nothing about theming, I can only test them out and give opinions which is always easier than doing.
<PRGUY85> yet, as I was saying, fedora has good implementation of new themes and looks for releases.  Specially the latest one.
<rsc-> fedora 9?
<PRGUY85> 10
<rsc-> IMHO
<PRGUY85> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Artwork/F10Themes/Solar
<PRGUY85> rsc-, are you dust's creator?
<rsc-> even if Ubuntu was to have used that look in the past releases (in place of human), people would stll whine about the same thing
<rsc-> PRGUY85, yep.
<PRGUY85> rsc-, nice theme there, I have some complains about it but its light years ahead of default
<PRGUY85> I work with dilomo on new wave.
<Cimi> even if their engine and icons are not better than clearlooks or murrine (and tango) they did a better job imho than ubuntu and others
<PRGUY85> Cimi, who you talking about? Fedora 10?
<Cimi> generally
<Cimi> I'm not in love with that fedora 10 theme
<Cimi> but it seems much better than human-murrine
<rsc-> neither am I really
<PRGUY85> well, as I saw in Fedora, people released their themes and community voted
<aantn> Cimi: it's probably the best out of all of them; some of the others are pretty bad
<PRGUY85> and the one that won was elected.
<PRGUY85> yet, it is a complete theme, wallpaper, gdm, grub, usplash
<PRGUY85> consistency.
<rsc-> i'd say the only 'cool' factor of it is that it's new and complete
<PRGUY85> rsc-, true
<rsc-> but as far as aesthetics and modern-ness, it's nothing special
<Cimi> fedora doesn't have usplash
<PRGUY85> sorry, I meant the install windows
<rsc-> and if it was used like Ubuntu used Human, it'd suffer the same "it sucks" fate eventually.
<PRGUY85> I love the Day of Ubuntu wallpaper slideshow.
<Cimi> ubuntu soffers of the palette
<Cimi> imho it's boring (it should have more vibrant colors)
<PRGUY85> yea, it is hard to sell brown/orange.  Blue/green/silver/black are more appealing
<Cimi> of course, for a matter of psicology
<rsc-> IMHO there's nothing inherently wrong with brown and orange.
<rsc-> it's more of Ubuntu's use of it
<PRGUY85> rsc-, exactly
<Cimi> the blue remembers the sea and the sky
<Cimi> like green remembers the earth
<PRGUY85> hey rsc-, why you choose dark brown when ubuntu was headed toward dark orange?
<rsc-> i.e., "Okay, the theme color is orange. What color do we make the folders? the back button? Oh that's easy. Orange."
<Cimi> earth/life
<Cimi> while brown... what do you think when you see brown? :)
<rsc-> which, IMHO, isn't quite how designers should think.
<PRGUY85> Cimi, touche
<rsc-> PRGUY85, I was thinking what would be a good compliment to orange.
<PRGUY85> rsc-, fair
<rsc-> PRGUY85, while still being roughly derivative of the palette
<rsc-> Dust had orange highlights before.
<PRGUY85> Ubuntu could try and use Shiki Colors
<rsc-> But I had to drop it, one of the main reasons being the over-prolification of orange elsewhere in the Ubuntu desktop.
<Cimi> orange is not that bad
<PRGUY85> rsc-, true.  Only thing I don't like about Dust (which is an excellent theme) are the new scrollbars.
<rsc-> Orange is a good color, IMHO.
<rsc-> just use it right
<Cimi> but it could be used in a much better way than human-murrine (horrible IMHO)
<rsc-> PRGUY85, join the club :)
<rsc-> Everyone hates the scrollbars, I don't understand :P
<PRGUY85> rsc-, hahaha I know.  I'm subscribed to the wiki and I get emails from that all the time
<rsc-> It's not good by any stretch I admit, but I don't understand why everyone's vehemently against it
<PRGUY85> rsc-, they feel blocky and kinda too big for the scroll space
<Cimi> dust is not our fault, it won't be a default
<Cimi> not now and not in the next 100 years
<rsc-> "is not our fault"?
<Cimi> if we are talking about the ubuntu design
<PRGUY85> Cimi, what do you mean?
<DannyKing> Cimi: why?
<Cimi> we should argue about the default look and appearance, not some themes from users
<PRGUY85> Cimi, I give you that
<Cimi> gnomelook is full of themes by users
<Cimi> so dust is nothing more than shiki-colros or whatever you like
<PRGUY85> well, we talk about user themes because we are looking for solutions to the default
<PRGUY85> as the ubuntu-artwork team has stated, the default theme can come from community
<rsc-> Dust is supposed to extend to a full suite, incl wallpapers and login screens
<PRGUY85> rsc-, I'm anxiously awaiting for icons hehe
<PRGUY85> the icon mockup was great
<rsc-> I'm not sure how I cna make an icon set right now
<rsc-> but im considering it :P
<Cimi> believe me
<DannyKing> Is dust intended to be a part of kyudo?
<rsc-> DannyKing, no.
<PRGUY85> I don't really get Kyudo yet
<PRGUY85> brb
<DannyKing> k
<Cimi> dust is just a simple theme
<rsc-> DannyKing, however, it was made with some of the kyudo guidelines even before Kyudo was out
<Cimi> it won't be more than a simple theme from the community
<thorwil> PRGUY85: maybe i can help you to understand it if you ask questions ;)
<Cimi> maybe clearlooks (in blue) is not the sexy/pretty/stylish theme out there, but why it is still used by thousands of people? because it is consistent and -usable-
<Cimi> because it is easy on the eyes, and you can work with it for 24 hours a day without being stressed
<thorwil> Cimi: you often sound like the not stressed part didn't work out for you ;)
<Cimi> I don't think I could work 24 hours a day with a mix of white and dark colors (dust)
<Cimi> thorwil, I usually code when I'm on the pc, and having a smooth colorcheme is pleasant if you watch the screen for hours
<DannyKing> Actually I like having a dark theme for coding (with light text)
<Cimi> a big black toolbar with fat black scrollbars is not comfortable to me
<Cimi> DannyKing, everything dark or everything bright
<Cimi> there are a lot of studies behind this
<Cimi> even the TV LCD
<Cimi> like philips ambilight
<thorwil> DannyKing: i have a theory that bright-on-dark themes work better in dark conditions. seems many coders are productive at night
<DannyKing> thorwil: yes perhaps, it seems to fit with me
<DannyKing> Cimi: I see your point
<thorwil> i also have my problems with a dark/bright mix
<Cimi> let me search for a link
<thorwil> anyone subscribed to our wiki pages? we have 2 Breathe submissions now: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/BreatheIconSet/Submissions
<DannyKing> ooh
 * DannyKing goes to look
<DannyKing> I guess orange is popular then
<thorwil> heh
<DannyKing> I like the perspective of the book
<DannyKing> Not so much of the bin
<DannyKing> oh it's a box
<aantn> thorwil: I don't think the trash can has the right colors
<DannyKing> Also the logo should bend with the bin, but it's clearly just a prototype.
<thorwil> aantn: it's just a re-colored oxygen bin
<DannyKing> Should we use ubuntu branding on the icons?
<thorwil> DannyKing: i think the logo shouldn't be on the trash
<DannyKing> That would limit them to just being used on ubuntu
<DannyKing> agreed hehe :)
 * rsc- is considering a new direction for Dust.
<rsc-> having just the nautilus and firefox windows use the dark toolbars
<thorwil> DannyKing: while want the icons for ubuntu, plastering the word and logo all over the place will only look cheap
<rsc-> and the rest would use a different, lighter-colored style
<rsc-> still unsure though.
<rsc-> inkscape, and abiword/gnumeric/office apps look stupid with dark toolbars.
<lucazade> it could be a right direction
<rsc-> IMHO, this variation is necessary.
<rsc-> if you look at Apple's interfaces, they have different looks for different apps. The "pro" apps (after effects) look heavier (with itunes using brushed metal before), while the more everyday apps are lighter.
<rsc-> I think a similar distinction (with different criteria) will be good.
<lucazade> i don't think so, i would miss integration
<aantn> rsc-: I'm not sure about it
<rsc-> aantn, why?
<aantn> rsc-: the different interfaces are probably a bad thing
<rsc-> of course even if they're different, they have to visually link together.
<aantn> rsc-: and if its a good design then it should be used consistently everywhere
<thorwil> rsc-: perhaps the separation could be along text-centric vs image/video/audio
<rsc-> check out Leopard OSX and it's quicklook. it's *jarringly* different from the rest of the OS, but still aesthetically integrates well.
<PRGUY85> well separation cna be good if they seem part of the same coherent theme package.
<aantn> thorwil: yeah, it doesn't fit with the other icons
<rsc-> http://macapper.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/quicklook2.png
<lucazade> also windows does the same.. but u know the results
<lucazade> see wlm wmp
<rsc-> one of the things I hate about Human (and the other 3rd party themes) is *monotony*.
<rsc-> every app looks the same.
 * thorwil hugs rsc- 
<PRGUY85> by the way, don't like those new breathe icon submissions
<rsc-> haha :)
<PRGUY85> look kinda tacky
<rsc-> PRGUY85, link please? i havent seen them
<aantn> rsc-: agreed
<PRGUY85> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/BreatheIconSet/Submissions
<thorwil> "monotony" is _the_ word for the ubuntu theme
<aantn> PRGUY85: agreed as well
<aantn> the other icons are stunning, and the new ones really can't be compared
<thorwil> PRGUY85: yes. now there is the problem that we have a submitter that isn't here and didn't post these to the list
<PRGUY85> exactly
<aantn> maybe the book is acceptable
 * aantn shrugs
<Cimi> http://www.displaycalibration.com/brightness_contrast.html
<Cimi> here's the link
<lucazade> nice
<Cimi> place your mouse over
<Cimi> [BLACK]   [GRAY]   [WHITE]   [RED]   [GREEN]   [BLUE]
<PRGUY85> when you guys say hyper-realistic for breathe, how can you say the current breathe icons are hyper-realistic?
<Cimi> to see how the eye see the colors
<PRGUY85> for me they are highly stylized versions of reality, not hyper-realistic.
<Cimi> *reacts to the colors
<lucazade> grey seems to be the most relaxing one
<thorwil> PRGUY85: hyper-realistic is _not_ photo-realistic
<thorwil> PRGUY85: also, what we have and what anyone of us might want are different ;)
<PRGUY85> thorwil, example please
<Borzo> the book has one problem in my oppinion, the dictionary writing is not visible when the size is small
<Cimi> you can see how the black pattern is seen with more contrast while black on black
<Cimi> hey guys! see my link
<PRGUY85> I don't think Icons should have any words or logos, they should display the information on a visual way.
<thorwil> PRGUY85: what i mean with hyper-realistic is even better than real. polished, clean, stylized realness
<Borzo> PRGUY85: I agree
<PRGUY85> its like adding voiceover to a movie character that is silent
<thorwil> i will send Sebastian a mail, trying to bring our criticism across without scaring him away
<PRGUY85> sebastian did great work on his elementary derived icons
<DannyKing> I'd imagine he didn't intend them to be final - probably just wants to get the ball rolling
<thorwil> DannyKing: yes, but letting them sit their with no feedback is not good
<DannyKing> true.
<PRGUY85> thorwil, true
 * DannyKing would do them completely differently
<PRGUY85> DannyKing, how so
<DannyKing> Not orange for a start, also I'd have them looking hyper-realistic, since that's what the dominant opinion seems to be of how they should look
<Borzo> see you guys in about 2hrs
<DannyKing> e.g. the bin would be made of a common material (wood, metal, plastic, whatever) rather than... orange
<PRGUY85> can someone send me a clear example of hyper-realistic since I'm lost in what you mean by that.
<thorwil> DannyKing: dominant opinion? it's just that i have been quite vocal there ;)
<DannyKing> thorwil: by that I mean you and I have the same opinion and we are the only ones to have posted suggestions about the look & feel on the list
<thorwil> heh, ok
<DannyKing> PRGUY85: photo realistic, as in ... you want to touch it
<PRGUY85> DannyKing, yes but hyper-realistic is not photo-realistic, so anyone has a picture of hyper-realism
<DannyKing> I think the difference between the two is: photo-realistic looks exactly as the real world would, whereas hyper would be photoshopped and always perfect
<DannyKing> (please correct me someone if that's wrong)
<thorwil> maybe this does it, to some degree: http://www.finalrender.com/products/images/fr_stage1/r2/CarPaint_MarkusBaader.jpg
<thorwil> no: http://features.cgsociety.org/story_custom.php?story_id=2503
<DannyKing> heh, perhaps a good definition is: more realistic than real life?
<DannyKing> or, more detailed than real life?
<thorwil> PRGUY85: if you look at that ^, you see it's cleaner and more vibrant than a photo would be. also the entire posing and lighting is totaly controled
<PRGUY85> yea, get it now.
<PRGUY85> its like processed reality
<DannyKing> thorwil: we should probably define this and put it on the wiki
<thorwil> DannyKing: not necessarily more detailed, as we don't have much room for them
<DannyKing> http://features.cgsociety.org/newgallerycrits/g51/89651/89651_1095243055.jpg    <--- wow that's pretty amazing
<DannyKing> thorwil: yeah tue. More perfect than real life?
<thorwil> yes
<DannyKing> Although that's quite a daunting aim
<DannyKing> might put people off contributing
<thorwil> DannyKing: better aim high. easier to lower the bar than to put it higher after you already started
<DannyKing> I agree fully.
<DannyKing> Just cautious of making it too elitist
<thorwil> DannyKing: if you look at what many of the people on the list acomplished so far, regarding artwork ... you just have to shut them out
<thorwil> DannyKing: i like the idea of allowing everyone to join, to look for any and all sign of talent and to offer mentoring
<thorwil> DannyKing: but so hard to combine that with marching towards the actual goal
<thorwil> over at Fedora, you have to apply for membership in the artwork group and you have to submit artwork that will be judged in the process
<PRGUY85> thorwil, not a bad idea.
<PRGUY85> offtopic, I'm testing latest Fedora 10 alpha updated and it's quite good.
<thorwil> ok. mail written. i invited Sebastian (spg76) to join us here
<thorwil> DannyKing: hope i haven't scared you :)
<DannyKing> no no, sorry - I'm working on another screen
<thorwil> heh, ok
<DannyKing> I do see your point and I do want breathe to be a highly skilled and all-round excellent icon set
<DannyKing> Just wanted to discuss it :)
<DannyKing> I feel that the current icons submitted to breathe, including the folder are too cartoony
<DannyKing> and too glossy
 * DannyKing feels bad because of the time gone in to the already submitted icons
<DannyKing> Granted it's only three, but still.
<thorwil> the shine/reflections on the base oxygen bin are totally out of whack
<DannyKing> Hmm also I think text in an icon is a bad idea for i8n reasons
<DannyKing> (flags too)
<thorwil> true
<DannyKing> perhaps an open dictionary would solve that... they tend to have pretty uniform layouts inside
<DannyKing> and for smaller icons it'd just look like a book, but that's fine?
<DannyKing> a normal book*
<thorwil> should be
<thorwil> DannyKing: perhaps we shouldn't skip pencil and paper
<DannyKing> As in planning using pencil & paper?
<thorwil> yes
<DannyKing> That should /never/ be skipped ;)
<thorwil> http://thorwil.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/brainstorm_help_01_si.png?w=400&h=318 :)
<DannyKing> Oh you did that standing up ubuntu icon? I love it!
<thorwil> yes, thank you!
<DannyKing> Perhaps icon idea should be posted as a sketch and agreed on before people submit icons?
<thorwil> well, we might want to encourage that, at least
<DannyKing> It'd save some bad feelings if someone designs an icon but it doesn't fit with other peoples opinions
<DannyKing> Nice handshake idea there btw
<thorwil> ty
<PRGUY85> nice stuff thorwil
<thorwil> PRGUY85: thanks :)
<DannyKing> I read an interesting blog post challenging the save icon the other day
<DannyKing> it argued that the floppy disk shouldn't be used, because a) it's outdated and therefore b) newer computer users don't know what one is
<DannyKing> But noone could work out what to use instead
<thorwil> huh?
<DannyKing> well, a save icon in every single app you've ever used is a floppy disk, right?
<thorwil> i already saw an arrow pointing down to a harddisk in one of the major icon sets
<DannyKing> yeah but that means save or download to me
<DannyKing> *save from the web
<DannyKing> And maybe hard disks will be outdated in ten years - so that's a similar problem, is it not?
<thorwil> no. if the icon is still in use in 10 years ...
<PRGUY85> maybe a lock? or an arrow going to a safe?
<DannyKing> I like the safe idea
<thorwil> will probably need those for crypto and access rights
<DannyKing> true
<PRGUY85> an arrow going into a safe?
<PRGUY85> hm
<DannyKing> At the end of the post I think I came to the conclusion that a floppy was fine - but it got me thinking about it
<PRGUY85> well, the USB universal symbol is recognizable and holds no special meaning, people just relate it to USB
<PRGUY85> the same happens and will happen to the floppy disk I think
<DannyKing> Yeah that was the reason why I accepted it, I think
<thorwil> it's ok as learned symbol
<PRGUY85> oh one thing, I tested out Intrepid with Gnome 2.24 and New Wave, and they added the option for theme to use light colored menus on main OS menu and dark colored menus for programs
<PRGUY85> that's something Dilomo talked about once that would be available on Gnome 2.24 as a revision
 * DannyKing hits internet explorer
<thorwil> with a hammer?
<DannyKing> With a tank.
<thorwil> it has always been much of the reason why i don't enjoy web-design. admittedly, the other thing was netscape 4
<DannyKing> Which has now died :D
<DannyKing> Yeah IE really destroys much of the fun thing you can do with web design
<DannyKing> IE7 is a big step forward though
<DannyKing> And before too long IE6 will be ignorable
<DannyKing> The future looks good, after 10 years :)
<thorwil> heh
<DannyKing> Unless chrome breaks it all...
<DannyKing> But google aren't evil... right? ;)
<DanaG> That's a bad name for a browser... considering "Chrome" is the name for a browser's UI elements.
<DannyKing> Yeah true#
<thorwil> DanaG: that's the reason they called it that way
<DannyKing> It's a nice little thing though :)
<DannyKing> should be chromeless then
<DannyKing> (it has minimal ui)
<thorwil> _MMA_: i just noticed for the very first time that the 22px plate rests on 24px one in the template :/
<thorwil> _MMA_: must be because 24 is/was the gnome size, but tango advocates 22
<thorwil> on to another week. good night! :)
<Cimi> kwwii, update to rev 79 BUT NOT 80 and newer until I will tell you
<Cimi> update to 79 to have rounded gtkentry in firefox
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-09-21
<kwwii> morning all
<thorwil> good morning!
<kwwii> hi thorwil
<kwwii> thorwil: just talking to ivanka about the countdown banner....trying to get an idea of what they want, etc.
<kwwii> so, in the end, there is no specific direction...since it was in the community space it should stay there
<kwwii> ie. feel free to do whatever you want ;)
<thorwil> kwwii: i just wanted to say that, 1 day before concept deadline, it would be a bit late to think about what you want :)
<kwwii> LOL
<thorwil> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Website/KarmicCountdownBanners
<kwwii> wow, I like the ones with the bg fromthe xsplash
<thorwil> currently Chin's design is the only one i like (somewhat). i fear he might have taken that koala from an image not granting those rights
<thorwil> horrible numerals, anyway
<kwwii> yeah
 * mac_v doesnt like the splash being used as a banner ;p
<FLOZz> Hello all  _o/
<mrmcq2u_> kwwii - u back?
<kwwii> mrmcq2u_: yes, I am online (but not at home, back in london)
<kwwii> oops, one second too late
<kwwii> mrmcq2u_: he
<kwwii> hey
<kwwii> 18:20 -!- mrmcq2u_ [n=mrmcq2u_@78.16.185.1] has quit [Remote closed the  connection]
<kwwii> 18:20 < kwwii> mrmcq2u_: yes, I am online (but not at home, back in london)
<kwwii> 18:20 < kwwii> oops, one second too late
 * kwwii is off to the hotel
<zoomy942> hi there everyone
<mrmcq2u_> kwwii -> did u talk to that sound engineer yet?
<zoomy942> i had a question about the Breathe Icon set
<zoomy942> it's a great icon set by the way
<mrmcq2u_> I don't like it :(
<mrmcq2u_> prefer gnome-colors
<mrmcq2u_> or humanity
<zoomy942> well, about those sets, this quesiton applies too
<zoomy942> it changed everything, which is good, but i didnt notice it change my battery/charging icon on my tablet pc
<zoomy942> is that something that was skipped?
<MadsRH> zoomy942 -> Breathe is really slick - only 50% done at the moment. I tried Humanity, which is better than Human, but still I like Breathe better
<mrmcq2u_> MadsRH - did u try gnome colors?
<MadsRH> mrmcq2u_ -> No, I haven't. Is that the set that have a non-ubuntu icon in the applications menu?
<mrmcq2u_> MadRH  - Its the iconset you use with shiki-colors
<zoomy942> thanks for the info.  i love breathe so far.  love it
<zoomy942> i'll be keeping an eye on it, thats for sure
<knome> kwwii, what's the license for notification-* icons in Human? where i can find the AUTHORS file?
<kwwii> knome is there a problem?
<kwwii> I am on a mac atm, can't give you and links or such...ask me tomorrow when I am back at work
<kwwii> I don't think that there is an authors file
<knome> kwwii, we need the svg files, but the sources only have png
<knome> kwwii, did you have that group photo btw? ;)
<mrmcq2u_> kwwii - what are the chances that lynx will use a modified more desktop friendly version of the moblin ui instead of gnome-shell?
<mrmcq2u_> with integrated web browser and media player taken out of the panel and a zeitgeist based file manager replacing it instead
<kwwii> knome: what do you want to do with the svg's?
<kwwii> mrmcq2u_: no idea
<kwwii> knome: sorry, I am back in london atm...I was only home for two days before returning...I promise that when I get home in a few days  I will get it to you
<kwwii> beta freeze is on thursday...I am going kinda crazy with work
<knome> kwwii, we need to fix some of the icons, we're going to include them in our own set
<FLOZz> Bye
<knome> kwwii, no hurry with the group photo, it's already been a year since it ;)
<kwwii> knome: please do not simply copy the icons. I have no problem if they are changed in style or such, but just copying them will get me stress from my boss
<knome> right
<knome> we are going to change the colors
<knome> is there a specific reason why human is so kind of closed from public?
<kwwii> knome: human in general no...but when we released the notification icons with the theme they were supposed to be licensed differently and for whatever reason I got the blame
<kwwii> so, I would appreciate it if those icons are not copied directly
<kwwii> just the notifications, nothing else
<knome> hmm?
<knome> what is the license then?
<knome> just tell me to shut up if you can't tell more about it :)
<kwwii> hehe, it is in the paage itself in the debian dir...ccbysa
<knome> ok, so we *could* copy those?
<kwwii> among other things, the ubuntu logo which is trademarked is also in their...legally that is incorrect as well
<knome> i don't want to cause any trouble and i
<knome> ...i'll keep our team from copying them if there really is a problem
<kwwii> I would almos promise that any theme which just copies them will not make it into ubuntu
<kwwii> almost
<knome> but we're talking about xubuntu
<knome> why release them under CC if they don't want them to be copied? or was this a mistake?
<kwwii> it was a mistake
<knome> okay
<kwwii> I appreciate your understanding
<knome> sure
<knome> i think we have to find an other way
<SiDi> kwwii: so there's no way for us to use the human notification-* icons ? :(
<knome> kwwii, who would be the next from you to contact about this? sabdfl? :P
<kwwii> sorry all, the wifi went down in my hotel
<kwwii> so they gave me free broadband ;)
<kwwii> SiDi: as they are in the human set, it would be bad
<kwwii> SiDi: what we could do is put them in another set just to themselves and then put that beneath your default set in the heirarchy
<kwwii> knome: dude, please don't even kid about that :) He was the one who was screaming at me that I had better get my shit together after they were released with the human set
<kwwii> although I had no idea that they should not be released with it...until then everything was ccbysa
<SiDi> i see
<kwwii> naturally, you could take the svgs and change them
<knome> kwwii, he is not a superhuman even if he has all the power in ubuntu and lots of money :P
<kwwii> or just include the human set underneath
<kwwii> knome: lol, he pay my salary
<SiDi> i think we will try to make our own ones
<ckontros> Screaming? Really? Because it was an open license? Hmm...
<knome> kwwii, but not mine.
<SiDi> that'll avoid you trouble
<kwwii> yes, and I would appreciate it ;)
<kwwii> ckontros: he wants all the new stuff from the design team which is different enough from what we have done until now to be reserved for ubuntu, etc
<knome> kwwii, that sounds like lots of propietary stuff coming
<kwwii> well, it is just parts of the artwork...all the code will stay opensource
<kwwii> the idea is that if we create something *really* amazing (which is, of course our job) we don't want someone to simply copy it as soon as we release it
<kwwii> check the new xsplash artwork, it has the new license
<kwwii> although really it is a non-license
<knome> "the new license" ?
<knome> kwwii, how does that license apply for copying to xubuntu, for example?
<kwwii> trust me, I have spent the last months talking to our two lawyers (and *lots* of others) concerning licensing and such
<knome> i mean, one might think mark wouldn't want to stop it being in the rest of his products as well
<knome> it == amazing stuff
<kwwii> knome: to be honest, with xubuntu, because of its status with ubuntu variants, I don't know
<knome> kwwii, is there any possibility you could investigate this further? :/
<kwwii> right, but we're not talking about just using it in xubuntu but taking it out of the context with which it way intended
<ckontros> kwwii: Ouch. That *REALLY* sucks. Though I understand why. And IMO the art won't show elsewhere.
<knome> yeah
<kwwii> knome: yes, I can take care of it tomorrow
<knome> kwwii, thanks. i appreciate it
<kwwii> ckontros: I agree but it was not my decision
<kwwii> I almost lost my job over this and before it I had no idea
<ckontros> I can see this being an issue later though. Something to give Mark shit about.
<knome> it really sounds like something big
<kwwii> oh, I imagine this will be a big issue with more people
<kwwii> I just don't want those problems to come out of something that I said or did ;)
<knome> of course
<ckontros> For sure, people will see the license and make their own issue from it.
<knome> that's why we might ask mark directly O:)
<kwwii> quite a few at the company thought it was not the right decision
<ckontros> There will also be bugs filed. :P
<kwwii> knome: don't worry, I will talk to him and others tomorrow
<knome> okay :)
<kwwii> I will explain this whole conversation
<knome> okay, thanks a lot
 * ckontros doubts any of the dirivitaves will have a problem using the icons.
<kwwii> no problem, thank you for understanding, more info will be coming
<ckontros> *derivatives
<knome> ckontros, the problem is that xubuntu is not one of the officially supported
<knome> ckontros, we are just an official derivative
<kwwii> as I said, as long as they are in a) a seperate set to themselves or b) kept in the human theme as they are now, it will not be a problem
<SiDi> ckontros: we always ask for authorization before using someone else's work, fortunately this can avoid bad situations :p
<knome> kwwii, a separate set would work perfectly, actually..
<SiDi> kwwii: i'm ok for a xubuntu-notification-icon-theme or something, if it can be done
<kwwii> knome: yeah, and I bet that mark will like the idea as well
<knome> kwwii, great to hear :)
<kwwii> luckily I am in the office so I can sit down with them over lunch and discuss the issue
<knome> kwwii, i have to buy you a beer if we meet someday :)
<ckontros> Drama. meh
<kwwii> knome: deal ;)
 * kwwii finds the amazing Katy Brands Big Ass Show
<kwwii> funny as hell
<SiDi> kwwii: now that knome said that he's telling me he needs a beer in pm... he's terrible, as soon as he thinks of beer.. :P
<knome> lol
<knome> maybe i am;)
<kwwii> lol
<kwwii> were I live, there are more breweries per capita than anywhere in the world
<kwwii> ;)
<ckontros> Damn Krauts
<knome> well, to be honest, i think beer 99% of the time i'm awake
<knome> one day i hope i can say that sentence with "think" replaced with "drink"
<knome> and not lie
<SiDi> it would not be sane for your body
<knome> not really. :)
 * ckontros was straitedge 'till he was 27. (not hardcore just kinda fit that mold)
<knome> but at least i'd have fun
<knome> drinking beer all the time actually isn't a thing to joke about :P
<knome> still i manage to do that all the time
<SiDi> ELEMENTARY HUMMINGBIRD !
<SiDi> its still damn long
<SiDi> I was happy with BLH :(
<knome> heh
<SiDi> knome: image sent in email
<knome> okay
<SiDi> i had an idea for the ico ntheme
<SiDi> we could release elementary as is
<knome> and?
<SiDi> and define BLH which would contain only our few icons and which would inherit the notification theme and then elementary
<knome> that's possible.
<knome> not a bad idea at all
<SiDi> so there would be elementary installed (recognition for the author) and i'd have my sexy name
<knome> those icons you sent look good
<SiDi> the alternative is that i stop being an asshole and i accept using elementary xubuntu or w/e as a name
<knome> haha
<SiDi> the 24px stop icon is blur
<SiDi> but it took me already some time to make it like that :P
<knome> hmm
<knome> how come?
<SiDi> (but i think they're definately better than the current gnome ones)
<SiDi> well, w/out the sources i just took the gnome ones and rotated them
<knome> why not just copy the start icon and flip it and change the colors? :]
<SiDi> which blurred them A LOT
<knome> hmm
<knome> how come?
<knome> they were svg?
<SiDi> which i fixed quite great in the 22Px and 16px ones, but which i dont seem to manage to fix more for the 24px
<SiDi> png
<knome> OH
<SiDi> there's no xcf or svg
<SiDi> its not even open source
<knome> gosh?!
 * kwwii hits the minibar
<knome> can we modify them then?
<SiDi> if apt-get sources returns a damn package without the SOURCE, then its not open source x_x
<knome> kwwii, have a good drink
<knome> SiDi, lol
<knome> SiDi, which pkg is that? :P
<SiDi> its a SOURCE package of course
<kwwii> nothing better than a beer which costs 10 pounds
<knome> kwwii, OUCH.
<knome> kwwii, i think i'll have some rum
<kwwii> actually, it is more like 6, but that is still crazy expensice
<SiDi> i think i'll go bed
<knome> SiDi, night :P
<kwwii> actually, I think I will pop open a vodka
<kwwii> night SiDi
<SiDi> gotta wake up in 6 hours for a signal transmission mathematics course...
<knome> kwwii, sounds like a normal price for beer in my standard bar
<SiDi> knome: thats so damn expensive :P
<knome> SiDi, but it's beer. ;)
<knome> SiDi, and only money. ;)
<SiDi> knome: feel free to try to make a better 24px icon btw ;) basically i just turned the icon, made it sharper, and then darkened it a little bit in gimp
<SiDi> (andi still think photoshop >>>>>> gimp)
<knome> SiDi, hmpf.
<knome> SiDi, i think we might try to get THE sources
<SiDi> i think you should try w/e art channel exists in gimp.net then
<SiDi> ts the gnome hideout
<SiDi> Ok, time to go now :X
<knome> hmm, my captain morgan is clearly running out
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-09-22
<mrmcq2u_> kwwii - did u post a screenie of the new gdm yet?
<mrmcq2u_> http://www.youtube.com/user/lockergnome?blend=1&ob=4 -> cool video on creative commons 3d print mashups :D
<mrmcq2u_> they open sourced the hardware of the 3d printer too :D
<kwwii> mrmcq2u_: nope, just got it running yesterday...have to set the bg and then I will make one
<thorwil> good morning!
<kwwii> good morning thorwil
<thorwil> kwwii: in case you don't follow the ubuntu-web list: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Website/KarmicCountdownBanners?action=AttachFile&do=view&target=countdown_09-10_glow.png :)
<kwwii> thorwil: wow, you've been busyy
<knome> morning kwwii :)
<kwwii> thorwil: talking to the people in the office, once thing about the banner came up
<kwwii> they felt that last time, we pushed to hard to keep out corporate look (or whatever you want to call it)
<kwwii> so, people should feel free to do more bold, different designs if so desired
<thorwil> kwwii:  "pushed to hard to keep out corporate look"? you do know that I talked with Julian directly and implemented changes on his request?
<kwwii> thorwil: yeah, well he is gone now :p
<kwwii> thorwil: someone here told me that they felt as if last time things were not led well
<kwwii> (ie we messed things up for you and the others)
<thorwil> kwwii: the result last time was "louder" than what i had in mind originally, but i'm fine with it after all
<thorwil> kwwii: the thing that bothered me was the initial attempt to have the decision makers talk with newz, and newz with me. so choose the direct path to me or anyone else, if you want to be nicer to use ;)
<kwwii> thorwil: hehe, I guess I should get in touch with newz then, before we make the same mistake again
<thorwil> kwwii: newz is a great guy, but "stille post" helps no one, if you know what i mean ;)
<kwwii> thorwil: klar
<knome> o.O
<kwwii> knome: ok, I have an answer for you....I am going to take the notification icons out of the human theme and put them in their own set
<knome> \o/
<kwwii> that way, you can use them without having to copy them into another set
<knome> thanks, that's appreciated
<knome> are they still theoretically CC licensed?
<kwwii> I appreciate your patience, I know it is a pretty messed up situation
<kwwii> knome: no, they will not be licensed as such...instead there is a phrase which our lawyers wrote which will be included
<knome> okay :D
<knome> so the new package is shuttleworth-licensed? ;)
<kwwii> getting our lawyers to write that sentence took months
<kwwii> lol
<kwwii> "you must ask mark shuttleworth personaly if you can use these icons"
<kwwii> "...every time you boot your computer"
<knome> haha
<knome> he would be getting *A LOT* of phone calls
<kwwii> ;)
<knome> what's the sentence then? :P
<kwwii> not sure, my laptop doesn't have all my old emails
<thorwil> "you may only use these icons if you own alliteratively named pets"
<knome> okay :D
<kwwii> it was something like "the rights to all of this belong to canonical"
<knome> kwwii, are you using POP or what is it with your email? ;)
<kwwii> knome: no, I don't have my email set up on this machine at all because I reinstall every few days
<knome> right
<kwwii> I have it on my other laptop, give me a minute
<knome> oh noes, you don't have to, i was just curious
<knome> (or are you using your work time here and trying to get off as easily as you can)
<kwwii> actually, it is not on my mac either
<kwwii> I have it at home on my desktop...I'll get it tomorrow
<knome> kwwii, so you DO use pop?
<kwwii> it should already be included in the xsplash artwork package
<knome> :P
<kwwii> yes, but not for my canonical account
<kwwii> for some reason, once I have it on my desktop at home it removes it from my imap
<knome> really? are you sure you're not configured to use POP on your desktop?
<kwwii> knome: yeah, I am really sure because my pop server went down for a week and I was freaking out :p
<kwwii> I think it has something to do with kmail's support for disconnected imap
<kwwii> knome: here is the full text of the license...
<kwwii> here comes a lot of text, sorry:
<kwwii> Unless otherwise indicated, artwork is available under the Creative Commons
<kwwii> Attribution Share-alike license v3.0 or any later version.  To view a copy of
<kwwii> this license, visit http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/ or send a
<kwwii> letter to Creative Commons, 171 Second Street, Suite 300, San Francisco,
<kwwii> California, 94105, USA.
<kwwii> See below for the full text.
<kwwii> The rights in the trademarks, logos, service marks of Canonical Ltd,
<kwwii> as well as the look and feel of Ubuntu, are not licensed under the
<kwwii> Creative Commons license and are subject to the Canonical Trademark
<kwwii> Policy at http://www.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/TrademarkPolicy
<mac_v> kwwii: hi.. any info about using the vertical battery icons :)
<mac_v> also will the notify-osd icons be moved to /usr/share/notify-osd/ ?
<kwwii> mac_v: yeah, I am working on updating the set as we speak...by tomorrow there will be a new package
<kwwii> mac_v: I have been aggregating my changes
<mac_v> nice :)
<mac_v> kwwii: also... there is no chance i could use the notify-osd icons ,I'v sent, in Humanity or any other theme... right? just confirming [read the scrollback ;) ],
<kwwii> mac_v: not copying them into another theme...but I am going to take them out and put them in their own theme
<kwwii> so you could include that theme underneath humanity
<mac_v> kwwii: so other themes will have to set the new theme as inherits? or will notify-osd just use the new theme as a fallback on its own
 * mac_v never understand copyright , but understand copying ;p
<mac_v> undertands*
<mac_v> mat_t: hi... is the xsplash ,we have right now , the final version or can we expect some tweaks? because the present image is causing banding [gradients] in a *lot* of systems , almost all the youtube videos show banding
<thorwil> mac_v: of course you see banding in youtube videos. even with a solid fill you would see artifacts there
 * thorwil -> cooking
<mac_v> thorwil: actually i was having banding in my system... and on noticing other videos , thought this problem might be more universal... :)
 * mac_v kicks crappy ATI card
<mat_t> mac_v: what do you mean by *a lot*?
<mac_v> mat_t: i was just going through the youtube videos , for example this one > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HrQ6aJzHYRs  ... almost all the ones i saw had similar banding , that is nearly similar to the banding i see in my laptop , maybe a little lesser than seen in the video
<mac_v> like thorwil said... it maybe the video quality that is poor in youtube... but thats how i get xsplash displayed in my system
<mac_v> that was one of the reasons i was looking to change the image
<mac_v> kwwii: http://elementary-project.com/abuse/screens/screen2.tiff < look familiar ? ;p ... OSX has copied us
<kwwii> mac_v: hehe, I wonder who copied who? :p
<knome> kwwii, you are such a license-offending copycat!
<knome> ;)
<kwwii> :p
<mat_t> mac_v: you cannot use videos as a reference - the compression will always distort the colors
<mat_t> mac_v: the banding could be an issue on 16-bit displays, but there's not much we can do about it
<mac_v> mat_t: yeah , i agree , but thats how it displays in system too... hm.. i'm not sure if my system is 16bit... how do i check?
<kwwii> mac_v: if your system was only running 16bit almost everything would be banded
<kwwii> mac_v: there is almost no way of showing how your monitor looks to anyone else
<mac_v> \o/ no such probs
<kwwii> although a photo would at least explain it a bit
<kwwii> but that is really hard to do as well
<kwwii> almost nothing falls back to 16bit these days
<mac_v> yeah
<mac_v> kwwii:  but how the youtube video shows the image is a bit close to how it gets displayed for me.. i get the bands only on the sides , where the black flows into the wine
<mac_v> the video has banding even for the light , i dont have such probs
<kwwii> mac_v: honestly, I have the shittiest monitor on this laptop and it, to my amazement, doesn't have any banding problems
<kwwii> have you adjusted the black point of you monitor?
<mac_v> hehe , then mine must be shittier ;p
<kwwii> how old is the monitor?
<mac_v> ~3yrs... its an LCD [laptop]
<mac_v> or even less
<kwwii> well, a poor quality lcd might show some signs
<kwwii> until now, nobody else has reported any problems
<kwwii> if you could find others with the same problem it would be much more believable :D
<mac_v> well this is an Acer Aspire 5670 laptop... maybe you could test it in any acer
<mac_v> kwwii: hehe , let me hunt down someone regarding this
<mac_v> ;)
<mac_v> also its an ATI card.. that maybe the problem too :(
<kwwii> I have an ati card with a huge monitor at home and I don't have any problems
<kwwii> nor on either of my laptops
<kwwii> I could try it on my wifes computer tomorrow
<knome> someday i will buy this book, just to have it in my shelf: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Graphic-Designer-Without-Losing-Your/dp/1856694100/ref=pd_ys_ir_all_9
<SiDi> kwwii:
<SiDi> h there, any news
<kwwii> SiDi: concerning the notification icons?
<SiDi> yeh
<SiDi> i can ask sabdfl now if you want
<kwwii> hehe, no worries. I have them sorted
<kwwii> we are going to take them out of the human set and include them in their own
<kwwii> that solves the problem for you, right?
<SiDi> definately
<SiDi> whats the license of xsplash and the xsplash theme ?
<kwwii> Unless otherwise indicated, artwork is available under the Creative
<kwwii> Commons Attribution Share-alike license v3.0 or any later version. To
<kwwii> view a copy of this license, visit
<kwwii> http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/ or send a letter to
<kwwii> Creative Commons, 171 Second Street, Suite 300, San Francisco,
<kwwii> California, 94105, USA. See below for the full text of the license.
<kwwii> Some Rights Reserved:
<kwwii> The rights in the trademarks, logos, service marks of Canonical Ltd,
<kwwii> as well as the look and feel of Ubuntu, are not licensed under the
<kwwii> Creative Commons license and are subject to the Canonical Trademark
<kwwii> Policy at http://www.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/TrademarkPolicy
<natewiebe13> someone took mrdoob's iteration 3 and made it for xsplash
 * natewiebe13 gives thumbs up
<SiDi> kwwii: i see
<SiDi> basically we will use our GPLv3 wallpaper + some throbler and probably white glowish xubuntu logo
<SiDi> do we risk a sue ? :P
<kwwii> SiDi: hehe, no...as long as you don't directly copy it there is no problem
<kwwii> or just change it to use your name or such
<kwwii> ie change it enough to be different enough and there is not a problem
<kwwii> and in any case, nobody is going to start suing people anytime soon ;)
<kwwii> I am sure that I would have a private conversation first
<kwwii> time for me to head back to the airport, going home today
<kwwii> I'll be back online either late tonight or tomorrow
<kwwii> have fun, be good
<mac_v> ah just missed kwwii
<mac_v> any one have any idea where gnome-dev-symlink is used for?
<mac_v> is it an emblem or an icon...
<SiDi> thanks kwwii
<SiDi> have a nice trip back
<mac_v> andreasn_: any ideas^ ?
<andreasn_> mac_v, it's for the symlinks, yes
<mac_v> andreasn_: ah thanks :)
<andreasn_> fortunately it can't be user added as the no-read and no-write emblems
<andreasn_> the naming-spec name is emblem-symbolic-link
<mac_v> oh... Human had that icon and was wondering what it did...
<FLOZz> Hello all  _o/
<psyke83> hey
 * kwwii returns home
<kwwii> hey psyke83
<psyke83> kwwii: hey, got your mail. Will reply tomorrow with the corrections (and mentioning the lines that needed change)... but...
<kwwii> two whole weeks until I have to go back to London, seems like forever
<kwwii> psyke83: you don't like the color?
<kwwii> I wonder what people will say about it...those who decided don't know the history, etc
<psyke83> kwwii: well, yes ;). But that's not the problem, since it's not my decision. I think there may be other parts of the theme you'd need to tweak to make it more acceptable, maybe, I dunno. I'm looking at it now, and all the widgets seem to have a high contrast
<kwwii> psyke83: yeah, I was assuming the change (it is much darker now) would effect many things we haven't seen yet
<psyke83> kwwii: what history do you mean?
<kwwii> this color is much cloer to the original human theme color
<psyke83> ah, right
<kwwii> and they have no idea how people have commented about the brown in the past
<psyke83> I believe the background colour was different as well (less gray)
<kwwii> yes
<kwwii> also darker
<psyke83> are you thinking of bringing back that "legacy" theme with murrine?
<kwwii> nope, we are working on totally new ideas for lucid which use similar colors to this new brown
<kwwii> but we are making a dark and light theme
<psyke83> I see. Do you remember when we were playing with the NewHuman-Light? If the other widgets were darkened, I think this new selection colour would better match
<psyke83> see this, but imagine your selection colour instead of the orange: http://connogriofa.googlepages.com/NewHuman-Light.png
<psyke83> well, maybe my old laptop's LCD screen is accentuating the problem, but the selection colour causes huge contrast issues with the rest of the widgets, to my eyes
<kwwii> I wouldn't go that dark, but yes, I agree that other parts could be darker as well
<kwwii> in fact, I thought that perhps the buttons and widgets (not the bg as much) could all be darker
<kwwii> the bg color could be darker, but not much darker or it changes the over-all feel of the theme
<psyke83> right...
<kwwii> I just found out about this change about 15min before I emailed you
<kwwii> and thursday is beta freeze
<psyke83> the advantage to having even slightly darker background means that the widgets can be made a little more distinct compared to what it is now
<kwwii> yes, I agree
<kwwii> I also thought about tweaking some of the murrine stuff, contrast, glow, etc
<kwwii> I had the center glow (4 instead of 0) and I really liked it
<psyke83> yes, if I were to try and incorporate such a different selection colour, I'd probably tweak as much of those as possible to try and compensate
<kwwii> I've been working on a new gtk style and metacity theme for gdm lately as well :p
<psyke83> nice
<psyke83> the human metacity would possibly need a tweak, too, as it darkens the selection colour and looks almost black
<kwwii> unfortunately, I also have to finish a bunch of icons for network manager as well as changing the softwarestore icon
<kwwii> yeah, I thought about making the metacity lighter in relation to the gtk stuff
<psyke83> who told you to change the theme so close to the freeze deadline?
<kwwii> the glow gets lost when it is too dark
<kwwii> the rest of the team
<kwwii> I no longer work alone!
<kwwii> I have 13 colleagues now
<psyke83> and things still can't get done on time.... ;)
<psyke83> j/k
<psyke83> is the group called the user experience team, or artwork team?
<knome> it's the "blame-them" team
<kwwii> Design and User Experience tetam
<kwwii> :p
<kwwii> it is the proprietary team :D
<kwwii> DUX for short
<psyke83> heh
<knome> the root of all evil (tm)
<kwwii> lol
<psyke83> kwwii: have you chatted to Cimi lately? Any idea if he's been working on the murrine engine lately, adding new features, etc?
<kwwii> I think he just updated the engine
<kwwii> but I haven't had any contact for a few months
<psyke83> it's a shame that the gtk engines aren't seeing much love, though I guess that gnome 3 could explain the lack of activity
<kwwii> well, for lucid we will (apparently) be writing our own
<psyke83> I'm looking at the git now, the last changes were just small compile fixes
<kwwii> too bad
<psyke83> is there info on this lucid macguffin?
<psyke83> a link or anything?
<kwwii> nope, nothing whatsoever
<kwwii> it exists as a series of mockups
<kwwii> in photoshop and flash form
<kwwii> I haven't seen much of it
<kwwii> they just thought about the fact that none of them use linux and maybe, just maybe there are limitations and necessary parts they might not know about
<kwwii> I gave them links to gtk and metacity theme information but I think they ignored
<kwwii> me
<psyke83> you mean things like the limitations of the gtk toolkit etc?
<kwwii> yepp
<psyke83> you mean... the people on the DUX team, that are paid to know these things?? ;)
<kwwii> +1 is a long term support release as well
<psyke83> just to let you know, if there's any dead weight, I'm available for employment ;)
<kwwii> lol, I am the only one who knows these things and they think I am "the negative guy"
<kwwii> dude, send me your CV
<kwwii> also, I could make sure you are invited to UDS, if you have time/interest
<kwwii> I cannot think of a better person to invite
<kwwii> well, other than the studio peeps and thorwil (who never accepts my offer)
<kwwii> it's somewhere in america, maybe dallas texas, in november
<psyke83> thanks man, I appreciate that, but that's not possible this year. I'm in Ireland at the moment (was working in Brazil at the beginning of the year, and came back to the recession)
<kwwii> even if we paid for it all?
<psyke83> ...and, my gf is visiting here in December, so I won't be able to afford
<kwwii> hehe
<psyke83> yeah right, and pigs may fly ;)
<kwwii> we pay for all the people we invite, you know
<psyke83> pigs who understand gtk limitations, maybe
<kwwii> lol
<kwwii> you even get a per diem for the meals we don't provide
<knome> kwwii, invite me as well :P
<knome> (just kidding, i'd rather come to the eu meeting next spring)
<kwwii> hehe...knome, where are you located?
<kwwii> say "on my couch"
<knome> kwwii, finland, northern europe
<kwwii> been close to there before
<knome> a trip to US is quite long and i'm not sure if i'm willing to do it again.
<kwwii> the only scandanavian country I haven't been to
<knome> !
 * kwwii is in germany
<knome> then you definitely have to make a visit ;)
<kwwii> well, the other trips (other than denmark) were work related
<kwwii> I would love to, if only I had the money
<kwwii> I could visit tigert and andreasn and others
<knome> yep
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-09-23
<kwwii> psyke83: if anything changes and you want to come, let me know I and will see to it...it won't cost you anything other than your time
<kwwii> unless you decide to spend too much money on booze, like I do every time :p
<psyke83> kwwii: thanks, I appreciate that offer. I'm hoping to get some temporary work until December in order to get some money together, though, so I'm not sure it'll be possible this time
<psyke83> it's very generous to pay for the trip, I didn't know that sponsorships involved finances
<kwwii> psyke83: no worries, maybe I can convine them to give you a contract working on the new themes
<kwwii> psyke83: yepp, we have always paid for a certain amount of people to come...we always do it somewhere else around the world so that those we do not sponsor eventually have a chance
<kwwii> a few months ago we were in Dublin
<psyke83> yes, I think you told me... I think I was in Brazil at the time
<kwwii> psyke83: while you are here, off the top or your head, do you know how to add a couple pixels padding the entire list/tree view?
<kwwii> mpt asked my whether it would be possible to add a few pixels padding to the top and bottom so that the active selection in nautilus and other apps with the left-hand tree view do not touch the top (or bottom)
<kwwii> at the time, I (guessed) thought that we can either pad each item or not at all
<kwwii> erm, tree=list
<psyke83> kwwii: add xthickness/ythickness = 5 (for example) to the "murrine-treeview-header" style
<psyke83> hmm
<kwwii> but that is the header of it, not the contents, or?
<psyke83> you mean the list of items within the treeview? so for example in nautilus's list view, you want more separation between files?
<kwwii> I mean the contents but just the top and bottom few pixels inside the box
<psyke83> kwwii: see the Style Properties part of this link: http://library.gnome.org/devel/gtk/2.15/GtkTreeView.html
<kwwii> currently, when the top item is selected the selection bg touches the top
<psyke83> let me think which one it is
<psyke83> do you have a screenshot or app where I can see this?
<kwwii> in the screen on that page, the selection bg of "List and Tree" would be about two pixels lower (with white in between)
<kwwii> I don't have anything which shows what I mean, but it wouldn't be hard to make a mockup
<kwwii> but the other items would not be further apart
<psyke83> I'm a little fuzzy on what part you want two pixels lower... the "List and Tree" part is the treeview header, but I'm not sure where you want two pixels padding
<psyke83> do you mean the space between the header (the "List and Tree" part, including the grey area) and the list "Line One"?
<kwwii> yes
<kwwii> let me make a mockup quickly to explain
<kwwii> it would be easier
<kwwii> http://sinecera.de/list-and-tree.png
<kwwii> not that much, but you get the point
<psyke83> h
<psyke83> ah
<psyke83> I have a feeling it's not possible, but I'm checking now
<psyke83> kwwii: I don't think it's possible. Conceptually, the treeview list begins under the header, whereas in your mockup it seems as though the header is embedded within the list (but at the top)
<psyke83> kwwii: see here: http://library.gnome.org/devel/gtk/2.15/tree-view-coordinates.png
<psyke83> according to the docs, GtkTreeView is embedded in a GTKScrolledWindow widget - and it's the latter that draws the border. The only options for this is related to scrollbar spacing
<psyke83> so the answer is a definite no, without patching gtk
<kwwii> psyke83: yeah, that is what I thought as well..thanks for going to to the lengths to test it
<kwwii> you know much more about the finer points than I do
<kwwii> which is why I asked you, naturally :)
<kwwii> thanks
<psyke83> I don't know GTK in detail, but the docs are fairly clear about the way you can style the widgets. I don't think that treeviews can be changed in that way
<psyke83> no prob ;)
<kwwii> I will see to it that we change this in gtk, if possible
<kwwii> adding a right, left, top, bottom padding to this would be good
<psyke83> I better get some sleep, need to be up early. Will reply to that mail tomorrow re the theme
<kwwii> yeah, time for sleep here too
<kwwii> I am an hour later than you!
<psyke83> kwwii: well, padding is already possible, I think, but it depends on exactly where you want to pad
<kwwii> see you soon, no hurries on responding, live your life first
<kwwii> psyke83: right
<kwwii> I appreciate the help
<psyke83> sure thing
<psyke83> nite everyone
<kwwii> night man, cheers
<psyke83> thanks, you too
 * kwwii heads out as well...night all
<knome> night kwwii
<FLOZz> Hello all  _o/
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-09-24
<bodhi_zazen> I am trying to change the GMD theme on Ubuntu 9.10
<bodhi_zazen> any suggestions ?
<bodhi_zazen> I was hoping someone from the art team would know, gdmsetup allow one to set other options but not theme
<bodhi_zazen> and editing /etc/gdm/custom.conf (and similar) does not seem to be working either :(
<bodhi_zazen> Sorry to ask and run, I will check back later
<kwwii> good morning
<mac_v> kwwii: after you have packaged and pushed the new icon theme , could you mention the name :) , the Inherits need to be added for Humanity. Thanks
<thorwil> good morning!
<psyke83> morning
 * darkmatter looks at clock. holy crap. I guess it it is
<darkmatter> I therefore return the sentiment. morning.
<thorwil> http://dudanogueira.com.br/2009/09/23/my-mother-on-ubuntu-artwork-karmic-release-shortlist/
<darkmatter> kewl. more mothers need teh recognition
<darkmatter> haiku is in alpha know. I can officially rofl myself to death now
<mrmcq2u_> kwwii - is the humanity icon theme canonical developed?
<kwwii> in a call atm
<kwwii> on
<mrmcq2u_> cool
<mac_v> mrmcq2u_: nope :)
<mrmcq2u_> not even the notification icons
<mrmcq2u_> well notification bar icons
<mrmcq2u_> they look similar to the notification bubble icons from canonical
<mrmcq2u_> netsplit
<mrmcq2u_> the joys of irc
<mrmcq2u_> :)
<mac_v> mrmcq2u_: the notification are canonical icons
<mrmcq2u_> notification bar
<mrmcq2u_> not actual notifications
<mrmcq2u_> ?
<mac_v> huh? what is notification bar?
<mrmcq2u_> the part of the panel with network manager, volume icons etc
<mac_v> the the notification area ;)
<mrmcq2u_> ah
<mac_v> oh , nope they are not done by canonical ;p
<darkmatter> they're a cheap mac-style wannabe in ubuntu colors by a third party with a mac-look obsession (and thus lacking in originality) ;)
 * mac_v hurt ^
<darkmatter> wooo! yet another victims spirit crushed! *dances a celebratory jig* xD
<mac_v> darkmatter: lot of folks like them ;) also they were requested from the design team > Bug #391714
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 391714 in humanity "Desaturate and stylize notification area icons" [Wishlist,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/391714
<mrmcq2u_> darkmatter - apple were not the first to decide not to use colorful icons for system notifications... Most consumer devices take that route.. Its much less flashy on the eyes
<kwwii> hi
<mac_v> kwwii: heya , is the new canonical theme out?
<psyke83> hey
 * mrmcq2u_ cant stand people who refuse to take certain routes because they feel apple invented them
<kwwii> mac_v: I am packaging it as we chat
<darkmatter> mrmcq2u_: what makes you think I was referring to the saturation? I was refering to the styling. humanity is a fork of elementary. which is a mac-wannabe and tries to copy the mac style a little to much
<mac_v> darkmatter: also , Humanity's icons are better than apple's  ;p
<mrmcq2u_> humanity is nothing like mac icons
<mrmcq2u_> :/
<mrmcq2u_> neither is gnome colors which is also based from it
<mac_v> darkmatter: you are right about elementary , several are mac inspired , but Humanity is different
<mrmcq2u_> I prefer gnome colors but like certain aspects of humanity, like the notification area icons
<mrmcq2u_> http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/9599/screenshottq.png
<mrmcq2u_> those icons dont shout apple to me
<mrmcq2u_> though u can use docky as ammunition too :D :P
<mrmcq2u_> so mac_v I noticed that the default was switched to humanity and then back to human a few hours later last night
<darkmatter> mac_v: only real difference is the folders which are derived from breathes look, but in an elementary styling. most of the others are recolors (though there are a few other fresh icons). please note: I'm not shooting down the quality of the icons, but the lack of originality
<mac_v> darkmatter: i have done icons for both breathe and Humanity ;p , breathe's folder is a new development
<mac_v> it is supposed to be a mix of oxygen and human
<darkmatter> I know. but humanities folder came after :P
<mac_v> nope , before
 * mrmcq2u_ ponders why instead of using the emblems on folders like music, documents, download etc custom folders are used instead?
<mrmcq2u_> I think gnome-colors is more comprehensive
<mrmcq2u_> and you have color options so that would leave canonicals options open in future releases
<mrmcq2u_> there is already a gnome-colors human and chocolate color theme :D I guess I like it so much because I can easily differentiate between files like html, css, python, c etc
<darkmatter> because custom folders give you control over the placement of identification elements. you don't get that privilege with emblems unfortunately. that much I can agree with in part. I still think we need sane people developing ui... but that's not going to happen anytime soon
<mrmcq2u_> but now I am torn because I really like the notification area icons in humanity :D
<mac_v> mrmcq2u_: you could use humanity's notification icons with a different theme
<mrmcq2u_> lolz, me thinks nautilus needs to die some point soon.. create a touch friendly tagging based file browser
<mrmcq2u_> with live previews of more than just video and photos
<mrmcq2u_> mac_v I know I might do it for my own purposes or maybe recommend the maintainer to do it
 * mrmcq2u_ was kinda bummed out when a guy created a new thumbnailer for nautilus which grabbed album art from metadata and used it as a thumbnail and the nautilus devs refused it on the basis that its too difficult to add album art to metadata on gnome currently
<mrmcq2u_> So he created a patch for rhythmbox which added the album art to metadata and also grabbed the album art from metadata and it was refused on the basis that album art in metadata in the view of the maintainer was wrong
<mrmcq2u_> :(
<darkmatter> I've grown indifferent to linux DE's. they're lost causes. I stick with gnome solely because it's the most stable of the major players. if it wasn't for the fact that I'd lose functionality, I'd just switch to an oldschool wm and be done with it
 * mrmcq2u_ also wants to shift away from keybaord and mouse, you dont realize how unnecessarily complex it is until you have to explain to your mother how to copy multiple files with the ctrl and left click method then watch how uncomfortable it is for them to use :(
<darkmatter> I want to move away from applications and move to a 'services with gui's' approach * and by services I don't mean things like facebook). actual activities, not a button labeled activities that opens a list of non-activities. I want 'home' as an environmental concept, not a a directory in the system hierarchy. I want form and function merged in perfect unison.
<kwwii> lp:~ubuntu-desktop/notify-osd/notify-osd-icons-ubuntu is where the notify-osd icons will be
<darkmatter> I want conceptual simplicity and structural complexity. an environment that is humane and smarter by design instead of dumbed down. let add what we need, kill what we don't. reorganize the results into something that is useful and usable
<mrmcq2u_> out of curiosity how do you feel about moblin's ui?
<mrmcq2u_> kwwii - I was talking about notification area icons
<mrmcq2u_> humanity's look similar to the osd icons
<mrmcq2u_> darkmatter - I like the moblin concept though there are things I would change for desktop use. As for file management I think some of the multitouch concepts look great for what your talking about.. Maybe mix it with gloobus to have interactive thumbnails/previews rather than switching between different apps for previewing things just because we can multitask doesnt mean we should for everything.
<kwwii> erm, humanity has notification icons for notify-osd?
<mrmcq2u_> I think that the moblin media players way of grouping music/photos and videos would translate well to a multitouch ui(drag multiple files together the way that feels right and when you take your finger off you get a popup asking you what you would like to tag the items with. Afterwards they would be in a sort of virtual folder of the same design as the groupings in moblins media player.
<mrmcq2u_> kwwii - http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/9599/screenshottq.png
<mrmcq2u_> top right, icons fit with notify osd icons quite well and look quite nice :D
<mrmcq2u_> almost like the lower res counterpart of notify osd icons
<mrmcq2u_> kwwii - any news on the gtk theme for the gdm?
<kwwii> I am finishing that up today as well
<mrmcq2u_> is today an art freeze?
<mac_v> kwwii: so does Humanity have to add "notify-osd" as inherits or... will notify-osd fall back on its own?
<kwwii> mac_v: we are sorting that as we speak
<kwwii> mrmcq2u_: yes
<mac_v> ah , ok
<psyke83> kwwii: hey. I just noticed that the gtkrc I sent you has a pinkish background, I didn't intend that. I changed it to #EFE5C9 and it fits with the selection colour better
<psyke83> it was just an experiment anyway, to show that perhaps the grey background needs to blend some more into the dark brown
<kwwii> psyke83: yeah, I changed that :)
<kwwii> no worries
<kwwii> I played with making it a bit darker as well
<mac_v> kwwii: why does human have /usr/share/icons/Human/scalable/apps/ooo-calc2.svg  , was that "2" accidentaly naming , or ...?
<mac_v> that icon is not present in hicolor
<kwwii> mac_v: it is probably just a work in progress
<kwwii> it won't be used named thusly
<kwwii> let me check it out
<mac_v> yea , thats what i thought , hehe a similar WIP i had placed in humanity caused the icon-cache problem yesterday ;p
<kwwii> right, you can ignore that
<mac_v> thanks
<psyke83> kwwii: be sure to send me a screenshot of the dark version sometime, I'd like to see what you're up to ;)
<psyke83> kwwii, I also meant to ask, are you interested in updating newhuman, maybe to fix it up a bit and try to make the widgets more distinct, or have you put that one on the backburner?
<psyke83> sorry, I mean darkroom
<kwwii> psyke83: for now, I have put that on the back burner as we are going to be working on new themes for the next release
<kwwii> psyke83: the human theme updates are going in the distro as we speak
<mac_v> psyke83: oh , kwwii is the author of darkroom..!
<kwwii> time for lunch. bbl
<kwwii> mac_v: yes, psyke83 and I made it
<kwwii> psyke83 is a gtk theme master ;)
<mac_v> :) , never knew it...
<psyke83> we're also secret lovers... you learn something new everyday :P
<mac_v> lol...
<psyke83> kwwii: I realized that when we were talking about lucid the other day, you meant karmic+1 (I didn't know that the name lucid lynx was chosen till today). I thought you were referring to a new theme in progress
<psyke83> kwwii: I just installed 0.33 of the theme, and I think that something is wrong
<psyke83> the only change to the Human gtkrc is to change the selection colour, so the highlight bugs, etc, aren't fixed
<kwwii> psyke83: hrm, that doesn't sound right, let me check
<kwwii> psyke83: shite, I screwed up
<kwwii> my fault
<kwwii> psyke83: thanks for pointing that out, I copied the wrong things and didn't notice
<kwwii> psyke83: did you install 33 or 32?
<kwwii> I only have my package at 32, the fix will be 33
<psyke83> kwwii: 33, built package from source on launchpad
<psyke83> gotta sort something, bbl
<kwwii> psyke83: I updated it a few minutes ago
<kwwii> now it should be correct
<thorwil> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Website/KarmicCountdownBanners#thorwil%27s%20Slideshow
 * thorwil coffee
<zniavre> humanlogin metacity  looks almost as mine
<mac_v> thorwil: how about a mix of B and E , i like how the numbers are inside the circle for E , but the E logo seems a bit dull :(
<mac_v> and what is the slideshow for? , where will the numbers be displayed? nice concept BTW :)
<mac_v> s/numbers/days remaining
<psyke83> back
<thorwil> mac_v: look at the animated option at http://www.ubuntu.com/getubuntu/countdown
<thorwil> mac_v: if A or B is the chosen, i might offer a variation of either with centered numbers
 * thorwil -> cycling
<kwwii> psyke83: the newest bzr should be correct now
<psyke83> kwwii: yep, got it, looks fine - the same grey background is normal, right?
<kwwii> psyke83: for beta freeze, yes
<kwwii> since we are a team I have to clear everything with everyone
<kwwii> :/
<psyke83> haha
<kwwii> and today we are *really* busy
<psyke83> I'm just making sure, there were some tweaks to the widgets that weren't mentioned in my first mail to you, so I was hoping you took the gtkrc and just changed the @bg_color back
<psyke83> it seems like you did it
<psyke83> kwwii: I'll go ahead and send the screenshot and gtkrc with the brownish colour I originally meant to show you, just in case you want to take a look at it later. The one I sent was too pinky
<kwwii> cool, thanks
<kwwii> psyke83: yes, that is exactly what I did
<kwwii> sorry, I am busy trying to edit all these damn extra wallpapers
<kwwii> what a hassle
<psyke83> haha :)
<psyke83> I won't disturb you
<FLOZz> Hello all  _o/
<mat_t> guys, does anyone here use mobile broadband on Ubuntu?
<mat_t> If you do, could you please check what icon you get in the panel when connected
<mat_t> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/network-manager-applet/+bug/435109
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 435109 in network-manager-applet "Incorrect panel icon for 3G connection" [Undecided,New]
<mat_t> Does anyone else get that problem?
<SiDi> *yawn*
<mac_v> mat_t: are you using Humanity or Human theme?
<SiDi> yay mat_t is here
<SiDi> hello there
<kwwii> mat_t: yes, I fixed it upstream the other day
<kwwii> so it should be fixed in network manager upstream
<SiDi> What the hell is that ubuntu sida thing ?
<mat_t> kwwii, ok, cool
<kwwii> of course, if humanity has it's own icons for this it might replace the ones I made
<mat_t> kwwii, I don't think this is fixable: https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xsplash/+bug/423632
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 423632 in xsplash "xsplash wallpaper gradients are massively distorted at 16bpp depth" [Medium,Confirmed]
<kwwii> mat_t: no, with the pic as-is it is not fixable
<kwwii> the usplash was always such fun to make images for!
<kwwii> we could just fall back to a solid color, or just black
<mac_v> SiDi: yeah whats with the SiDa spam... lol i thought you might have something to do with it ;)
<mat_t> kwwii: hmmm, actually
<SiDi> mac_v: no, i dont :p
<SiDi> sida means AIDS in french >_>
<mac_v> lol
<mat_t> kwwii: when I view the images in the browser they look fine
<SiDi> and simple daughter is meaningless (not to mention i really dont see what that project tries to achieve)
<mat_t> kwwii: I guess bratsche needs to have a look at it
<kwwii> mat_t: right, you view them at at least 24bit
<kwwii> at 16bit there is no way that a gradient like that is going to work without dithering the pic
<kwwii> I'd like to understand the reasons people view this at 16bit
<kwwii> the usplash is not displaying this bg is it?
<mat_t> kwwii: no, I viewed them at 16bpp on my screen - they look fine in preview/browser
<mat_t> kwwii: usplash is not using these images
<mat_t> kwwii: usplash only  uses circle of friends on black
<kwwii> mat_t: how did you view them at 16? I don't know of any way to switch that on or off
<kwwii> mat_t: whew :)
<mat_t> kwwii: display prefs
<mat_t> on osx
<kwwii> ahhh, but osx does nasty little (wonderful) tricks to make it look nicer
<mat_t> kwwii: we have to do these tricks too, then :)
<mat_t> kwwii: I can't change the image itself, I'd have to create separate versions with web dither ;)
<kwwii> mat_t: yeah, if we can...I doubt too many people understand that stuff these days
<kwwii> mat_t: right
<kwwii> which would make the file size much larger
<mat_t> and Steve Langasek would have me murdered
<kwwii> lol, exactly
<mrmcq2u_> kwwii - are you still putting the gdm gtk theme in your ppa?
<kwwii> mrmcq2u_: not today, I am trying to make beta freeze
<mrmcq2u_> kwwii - I like the shade of brown you guys chose for the human theme
<FLOZz> Hello all  _o/
<zniavre> good evening
<zniavre> how to "design" gdm please?
<mrmcq2u_> is the new gdm even out yet?
<mrmcq2u_> I think there will be good instructions once the new gdm theme is published
<zniavre> i am with karmic and gdm seems to follow the new human gtkrc
<zniavre> i ll wait so
<zniavre> thank you
<SiDi> lol, mrmcq2u_
<SiDi> if its like indicator-applet we're gonna wait a long long time
<zniavre> :o)
<mrmcq2u_> kwwii - is human-theme .34 going to be in your ppa before the official repo?
<mrmcq2u_> odd - it seems to be included, just not applying changes from the ubuntu-login folder within human-theme 0.34
 * kwwii returns from band practice
<kwwii> mrmcq2u_: it is included but it does not work unless you set the gconf defaults correctly
<kwwii> currently there is no way to do that
<kwwii> but you can edit the gconf defaults file 16 and 17 to set the gtk, metacity and bg
<zniavre> file 16 and 17 ?
<zniavre> i dont not hav this 17 file
<kwwii> /user/share/gconf/defaults/16_ubuntu-artwork
<kwwii> 17_*
<kwwii> and then sudo update-gconf-defaults
<kwwii> 17 is the path to the bg
<kwwii> 16 is the gtk and metacity theme...set it to HumanLogin
<kwwii> s/it/each
<kwwii> anyway, time for sleep
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-09-25
<knome> night kwwii
<mrmcq2u_> new gdm rocks
<mrmcq2u_> :D
<mrmcq2u_> well done kwwii :D :P looks sweet :D
<knome> hmm
<mrmcq2u_> knome - have you tried it yet?
<knome> nope
<mrmcq2u_> it looks real nice :D
<knome> and i'm not sure if i will - i use xubuntu
<mrmcq2u_> ah
<knome> and actually, i'm one of the guys working for the gdm theme for xubuntu ;)
<mrmcq2u_> cool
<knome> you are right, it's going to be cool
<mrmcq2u_> :)
<mrmcq2u_> is it similar to the ubuntu one?
<knome> i can't remember if i have seen the ubuntu one, but i can definitely say it's going to be different
<knome> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Artwork/Karmic#Wallpaper
<knome> something like that...
<mrmcq2u_> nice
<mrmcq2u_> the wallpaper sort of reminds me of fedora 11
<mrmcq2u_> :)
<knome> hmm.
<knome> okay
<mrmcq2u_> not a bad thing
<mrmcq2u_> :D
<knome> thanks then ;)
<mrmcq2u_> just the texture is similar
<knome> yeah, maybe a bit
<knome> the final image is going to differ from that a bit at least
<knome> adding some more texture and putting some subtle highlights here and there
<mrmcq2u_> cool
<knome> yeah.. i think so
<knome> if only i had the time
<zniavre> hello / bonjour
<zniavre> i tried to setup gdm as kkwwi told us yesterday but it does not work
<zniavre> does murrine set with rgba ON can 't work ?
<zniavre> the metacity in gdm works only for the visual keyboard not for the main loginwindow right ?
<kwwii> zniavre: ?
<kwwii> zniavre: it should be themed (black and white) but the variables have to be set
<zniavre> kwwii,  ok im trying to understand how it works
<kwwii> zniavre: currently in order to make it work you have to set 3 gconf keys in the ystem-wide defaults and then update everything
<kwwii> it is not a normal process yet
<zniavre> on wich window metacity must be displayed ? (login or visual , or both )
<kwwii> the gtk theme and metacity theme are both named HumanLogin
<zniavre> yes i saw this
<kwwii> I explained the process last night
<zniavre> yes i tried it with succesfull for gtkrc
<kwwii> then it should work for metacity as well
<zniavre> but not on the login "stuff"
<kwwii> hrm, you set the keys right?
<zniavre> i modified cursor-theme and gtk they work well
<zniavre> yes i set as you said yesterday night
<kwwii> /apps/metacity/general/theme should be HumanLogin
<kwwii> lol, last night I said there is 17 but there are two 16's instead
<zniavre> yes
<zniavre> :o)
<mac_v> kwwii: the new human theme , is that the final version or...?
<mac_v>  could it be a bit more black and less brown ;)
<kwwii> mac_v: I am expecting to tweak it a bit, depending on the feedback
<kwwii> there is already one bug, so there are still changes coming
<mac_v> \o/
<darkmatter> it's not bad. but unfortunately it's limited by that pile of crap called murrine ;P
 * mac_v likes the human login theme better ;p
<mac_v> kwwii: why dont we use the human login theme , it looks good :)
 * mac_v would like a blend of the human login style with the present human theme color
<mac_v> aahh the login theme is totalllllllllllly awesome
<kwwii> mac_v: that is a pretty radical change
<mac_v> yeah , but why not ;p ...
<kwwii> mac_v: set the bg color a bit lighter (it is black currently) and it is pretty nice to use
<darkmatter> mac_v: my face is totally awesome! they should base all the artwork on that! xD
<mac_v> darkmatter: i dont think so ^ ;p
<mac_v> kwwii: /apps/gwd/metacity_theme_active_opacity , setting this to 0.6 makes the theme look even better , you could use the transparency as the default for the login screen
<mac_v> or maybe 0.7
<kwwii> mac_v: gdm does not run with compositing
<mac_v> aw ;(
<kwwii> if it works on your normal desktop, it could but it was a decision to make it work better on all computers
<kwwii> the idea is to get to that point fast
<kwwii> I don't need my login window to wobble :P
 * darkmatter checks kwwii s temperature. yup. fever
 * darkmatter feeds gnome-shell to mac_v and watches him die a horrifyingly painful death
<thorwil> gnome-shell is poisonous?
<darkmatter> thorwil: you doubt? :o
 * mac_v isnt able to use gnome-shell , the driver fails 
<thorwil> darkmatter: i havn't tried it, yet. from what i've seen, it suspiciously looks like going into another room to add something to your current room ...
<mac_v> hehe ^
<darkmatter> thorwil: I find it yet another horrible example of 'bah... testing is for n00bs! we're developers! usability experts and interface designers be damned!'
<kwwii> thorwil: morgen, did you see the wallpapers?
<thorwil> kwwii: do you refer to Ivankas mail from wednesday? if so, yes
<thorwil> darkmatter: i'm not sure, but i think there were ux people around when gnome-shell was conceived
<kwwii> thorwil: no, I wondered whether you had seen the 19 that made it onto the CD :)
<thorwil> kwwii: nope
<darkmatter> thorwil. I've used gnome-shell and still do occasionally. if there were ux people they were obviously either drunk or stoned at the time...
<thorwil> darkmatter: already tried to point out the flaws on their mailing list? i admit that i wouldn't expect much from that, but worth a try
 * mac_v going to rip off kwwii's login theme and make a black theme usable as a system theme ;)
<darkmatter> thorwil: I gave up pointing out flaws to developers YEARS ago. total waste of energy and time
<psyke83> hey
<kwwii> hi psyke83
<thorwil> darkmatter: my involvement led to changes in a few apps and there are developers who actively ask me for my opinion sometimes. so i have a different experience
<darkmatter> thorwil: lucky you.
<mac_v> kwwii: you made an almost functional black theme http://imagebin.ca/view/4pb0Eww.html ... you rock...
<kwwii> well, it wasn't all my work ;)
<kwwii> psyke83: hey, there is some bug about the new gtk...let me find it
<psyke83> ok
<psyke83> is it checkmarks being black in some apps?
<kwwii> wow, looking through bugs is amazing...get this one:
<kwwii> Metacity doesn't look Tango compliant
<kwwii> bug #436066 Human theme vertical scroolbars have borders on maximized windows
<thorwil> but what if tango doesn't look metacity compliant? ;)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 436066 in human-theme "Human theme vertical scroolbars have borders on maximized windows" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/436066
<darkmatter> lol? why does.. actually no... etf does a wm have to do with an icon design style? oO
<kwwii> thorwil: more importantly what is tangacity is not mango compliant?
<thorwil> kwwii: i guess that's about there being a gap between screen edge and active area of the scrollbar. that would be a valid concern
<psyke83> kwwii: yes, I'm aware of this bug. Changing the trough border to 0 will fix it
<kwwii> Indeed, I am going to update my test machine now I think
<thorwil> tangacity? round look with thin stripes? :)
<psyke83> I was hoping to get a hold of Andrea to see if he knew a way around this
<psyke83> (without removing the trough)
<kwwii> no, it is a drab desaturated vertical gradient with a really thick line around the outside ;)
<darkmatter> isn't that two thicklines, one white and one black, so that the deco looks equally cartoonish against light and dark backgrounds? :P
<psyke83> kwwii: http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/4594/trough0.png
<psyke83> that's with the trough set to 0, which would resolve the problem that you can't click on the scrollbar from the rightmost part of the screen
<psyke83> it loses some coherency, though - the scrollbar has sharp edges
<kwwii> psyke83: yeah, I like the trough, but on a maximised window it causes problems
<kwwii> which sucks
<kwwii> I think we have gone back and forth on this one in the past.
<psyke83> no, we were thinking about going back and forth ;)
<psyke83> there was also a bug in firefox related to troughs, and asack asked for us to ship the theme with the trough at 2 to bring it to the mozilla dev's attention
<psyke83> that's fixed in the 3.6 alpha, dunno if it will be fixed for us in karmic
<psyke83> one thing we could do is set the global roundness to 0, to make everything se
<psyke83> *everything square
 * mac_v now is a *huge* kwwii fan ;) 
 * mac_v had been looking for a black theme for god knows how long.. this is almost close to what he was searching for \o/
<kwwii> psyke83: hrm, I'm going to play with it a bit and see what I can come up with...I might change the metacity a bit as well
<psyke83> mac_v & kwwii: ironically, this is the theme that should have been called darkroom - it's like seeing a photo negative ;)
<kwwii> mac_v: glad to have pleased you ;)
<kwwii> hehe, no doubt
<kwwii> but darkroom only became so brown due to someone elses wishes
<mac_v> psyke83: hehe , ;) yeah
<psyke83> kwwii: I'll mess around with it as well and see if I can come up with something
<mac_v> psyke83: are you going to make it as a theme? on its own?
<kwwii> psyke83: killer, thanks
<psyke83> mac_v: in this case I'm talking about tweaking Human, not HumanLogin
<mac_v> oh ok ;)
<mac_v> kwwii: pls add the human login theme as an optional theme in the default install , this is amazingly good
<mac_v> not for me well for others ;p
 * mac_v should stay away from ubuntu+1 ... too many complains about the theme 
<psyke83> kwwii: on buttons, do you like when they have a noticeable centre gradient, or when they're smooth (like at the moment)?
 * darkmatter really likes how there is no way to see what applications are running in gnome shell and how there is no way to switch between open apps/windows except alt-tab or overlay. halloooo? ass backwards, inaccessible and unusable much? (and btw. read the mailing lists. the devs *refuse* to change that)...
<darkmatter>     /facepalm
<darkmatter> I thought the future would be 'click less, do more' not 'click more, do squat'... silly me
<mac_v> psyke83: you said photo negative... i remember.. once i tried to use the system like that , use the negative plugin from compiz ... didnt turn out well ;)
<psyke83> ;)
<psyke83> kwwii: take a look at the buttons, this is what I mean: http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/1844/sharpgradient.png
<kwwii> psyke83: I like that gloss but only when it is just barely noticably
<kwwii> noticable
<psyke83> ok
<kwwii> but I also like rounded buttons
<kwwii> I even thought about using the center glow or whatever it is called
<darkmatter> the glow is actually ok. gloss is... eww
<kwwii> psyke83: here's another bug: #435718
<kwwii> this one is a bit more interesting though
<psyke83> kwwii: that looks to be a problem with the app
<psyke83> it's the same for all themes I'm checking now
<kwwii> psyke83: I wonder if webkit-gtk is so new that nobody knows which class to use to fix it
<psyke83> kwwii: no, because the human theme uses a universal roundness for all widgets. That means that the widget being rendered is not capable of being rounded, either because of gtk itself or the gtk engine
<kwwii> psyke83: good answer :) thanks!
<psyke83> for example, in the past, the murrine engine couldn't round the treeview headers, but it can now
<kwwii> lol, so after reading the bug correctly, the problem is that the one window is rounded when it should not be
<kwwii> because the navigation tree view is not rounded
<kwwii> psyke83: if we wanted to make that square, couldn't we add a definition for exactly that class with a murrine engine roundness=0?
<psyke83> kwwii: sure, it's easy
<psyke83> do you mean to match a whole class, or a class only in that app?
<kwwii> psyke83: I mean a whole class
<kwwii> so all of those things are square
<kwwii> hoping that whatever that class is, it is only used next to a tree view :p
<kwwii> maybe it would be better for them to do it in the app if possible
<psyke83> kwwii: yep, in the relevant style section you want to change. Just don't forget to embed the 'engine "murrine" { }' part
<psyke83> kwwii: the problem with gtk is that widgets embedded in widgets sometimes inherit the parent class
<psyke83> e.g. progressbars on the networkmanager applet
<psyke83> *networkmanager applet's meny
<psyke83> *menu :P
<kwwii> yeah, what fun ;)
<psyke83> so if you put roundness = 0 only in the progressbar class, it may not work in network manager and other application where they embed progressbars
<psyke83> kwwii: the theme has one of these bugs right now: open gconf-editor and navigate to a key. The checkmarks are black
<kwwii> ouch, yeah
<kwwii> well, I going to see if this is a subclass which is easy to fix without screwing everythin else up
<psyke83> when I recently re-wrote the theme, my aim was to remove all those hacks. However, when you recently told me about the selection bg colour change, I re-added the "hack" to make checkmarks white
<psyke83> it can be fixed (and I think I fixed it in the darkroom/ubuntustudio theme before), I will look into it
<kwwii> psyke83: cool, I am doing this bug and trying to work on the color of the scrollbars
 * kwwii -> lunch
<zniavre> where i can see the output of gdm error if there is ?
<zniavre> or gdm can 't use Murrine engine at all ?
<zniavre> what i do not trust cause Human is murrine i think
<psyke83> kwwii: there's no chance of lightening the brown selection colour even a little bit>
<psyke83> ?
<kwwii> psyke83: yes, there is a chance...we have two people looking into which color we should use
<psyke83> Cimi: hi, can you take a quick look at bug #422511 and tell me if it's possible to fix in your murrine engine? (i.e. let the trough part of the scrollbar respond to clicks)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 422511 in human-theme "problem with new scrollbar in Human theme - GtkRange::trough-border set to 2" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/422511
<psyke83> kwwii: that's good to hear, because I think that either the selection or the background needs to be adjusted
<psyke83> I thought it was just my failing laptop screen (bad backlight, pinkish hue), but I checked the theme on my desktop monitor and it still looks too deep
<Cimi> that is false dashua "The only detrimental effect is the loss of system-wide color theming to the scrollbars. Pixmap scrollbars scroll faster and smoother contrary to popular belief that the pixbuf-engine is slow."
<psyke83> Cimi: yes, I agree
<Cimi> psyke83, I haven't understood that bug
<psyke83> Cimi, are you on Karmic right now?
<Cimi> ok understood
<Cimi> but  can't be fixed
<psyke83> Cimi: perhaps in gtk itself?
<Cimi> no
<Cimi> is that firefox which is bugger?
<Cimi> *d
<psyke83> Cimi: Firefox has another problem with trough borders in text boxes, but that's not related to this specific problem
<psyke83> the clicking problem affects all applications
<Cimi> but with nautilus, if I click on the right edge
<psyke83> maximize any application which has a scrollbar present, move the mouse to the rightmost part of the screen, and try to click on the scrollbar
<Cimi> it grabs the scrollbar
<Cimi> here it grabs
<psyke83> if you're on Jaunty, it will work because the trough is set to 0
<Cimi> I am on karmic
<Cimi> and it grabs
<Cimi> only firefox doesn0t
<psyke83> just a min
<psyke83> hrm, yes
<psyke83> I thought that all applications had this problem
<psyke83> so I guess this is a case of Firefox's gtk "emulation" messing up somewhere?
<Cimi> y
<psyke83> I hear that the 3.6 alpha fixes bug #327863, maybe as a side-effect the clicking problem will be gone
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 327863 in gtk2-engines "non-zero GtkRange::trough-border value produces strange boxes in Firefox" [Low,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/327863
<psyke83> I'll try a daily build and see
<Cimi> I'm looking forward to midori and epiphany
<Cyberkilla> Hello
<Cyberkilla> I know I'm going to be punished for asking this, but...
<Cyberkilla> Does anybody have any information pertaining to the final GDM theme in Ubuntu Karmic?
<kwwii> it does not grab the scrollbar at the very right with the trough !=0 but it does make the scrollbar jump/move around
<Cyberkilla> I can't find a damned thing about it, with the exception of the idle speculation and arguments in the Ubuntu forums.
<kwwii> Cyberkilla: yes, it is the HumanLogin theme
<Cimi> kwwii, yeah
<kwwii> Cyberkilla: they are working on getting it set
<kwwii> as it has to be done as user gdm
<Cyberkilla> kwwii: Greatly appreciated, thanks.
<kwwii> Cimi: hi, btw :)
<Cimi> I have 5 days of holiday, I'm looking forware a murrine 0.91.0 :)
<Cimi> hi kwwii
<psyke83> kwwii: yes, I it only jumps, can't grab the scrollbar
<kwwii> psyke83: exactly
<kwwii> hehe, holidays are for having fun...that's what you call fun?!
<Cimi> no, but I already implemented cool things in git
<Cimi> I just need few more hours
<psyke83> Cimi: the last commit is 10 days ago, you didn't push them yet?
<kwwii> cool
<Cimi> I am about to change the latest implementation
<Cimi> I will add gradients for the borders too
<knome> kwwii, until somebody pays me for doing whatever i want, holiday is for doing all kind of work ;)
<Cimi> and maybe I will add more styles for the arrows
<psyke83> Cimi, that's awesome. I just hope that if your new version is stable, we can request a FFe for Karmic ;)
<kwwii> knome: hehe, I know that feeling too
<psyke83> kwwii & Cimi: Firefox 3.6 fixes bug #327863 but bug #422511 hasn't changed
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 327863 in gtk2-engines "non-zero GtkRange::trough-border value produces strange boxes in Firefox" [Low,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/327863
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 422511 in human-theme "problem with new scrollbar in Human theme - GtkRange::trough-border set to 2" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/422511
<kklimonda> are the new icons for volume and wifi the direction you (as in art guys) are going to take? Will you change all gnome-applet icons and all notification from default installation?
<knome> kwwii, hmm. what was the right time to ask for the photo once again..? :)
<kwwii> kklimonda: I was kinda amazed to see that they are in the humanity theme. they look very close to the ones I have in bzr
<mac_v> kwwii: you made similar icons too  :)
<kklimonda> kwwii: so they are completely random and not a part of some bigger plan? :)
<mac_v> kklimonda: actually , only the system icons are stylised and in greyscale , the app icons wont be done... since we cannot cover all apps , to fix this the notification area can be tweaked to desaturate the icons... similar to the UNR window list
<mac_v> the UX team hasnt decide on the tweak yet :/
<kklimonda> mac_v: damn.. I was hoping for some kind of standardised look for notification area and I really like those new icons..
<psyke83> kwwii: the only thing that concerns me is the volume icon. When it's muted, it looks like there is uncomfortable whitespace between the volume icon and network-manager. Maybe put a subtle X to indicate it's muted, or hollowed bars?
<mac_v> kklimonda: glad you like them ;) , some have complained some raved.., but there are problems with doing app icons since these icons will be displayed in the apps too :(
<mac_v> psyke83: hehe , i did that ;p
<mac_v> is an X really essential?
<psyke83> mac_v: no, but just do something to alleviate the space
<psyke83> for example, when muted or at 0%, keep the speaker icon fully solid, but leave the three volume bars that are grey
<kklimonda> mac_v: will you change at least bluetooth one? it looks really out of space right now.. well, now all icons look out of space but other are at least connected to programs and bluetooth one just sits there.. bluetooth and icon that shows up when files are copied in nautilus..
<psyke83> *light grey
<mac_v> psyke83: hmm... why i didnt add the X was because it wasnt being displayed properly ,ie not very sharp...
<kwwii> psyke83: yes, people have reported that
<mac_v> psyke83: i tried that , then we had complaints that the full and no signal were very similar
<psyke83> mac_v: what about changing the bars to waves?
<psyke83> (for the volume icon)
<mac_v> psyke83: maybe i could increase the transparency even further
<mac_v> that wont be sharp ;)
<psyke83> yes, the icon is so small...
<mac_v> kklimonda: the bluetooth icon shows up in the system menu :/ , so we are really hoping the notification area is patched
<psyke83> mac_v: the problem is of context. If I were to look at the volume icon right now, while muted, I only know that it's semi-transparent because of the network manager icon with the full connection beside it
<mac_v> psyke83: ah , i got an idea , doing one
<psyke83> however, a fully solid speaker icon with three transparent bars would show me that the volume is muted, and I would be sure without needing context from another icon
<kklimonda> mac_v: isn't it a bug itself that the same icon is used for both notification area and other parts?
<psyke83> cool :)
<kwwii> psyke83, anyone who cares: I'm tweaking the human theme colors so that a) the brown is less saturated and a slighty different hue
<kwwii> b) the bg color is a bit darker and more saturated
<mac_v> ^ \o/
<kwwii> and c) the scrollbars are more grey
<mac_v> kklimonda: yup , but will the devs fix it because a single theme has decided to do a new style ;)
<kwwii> and the panel icons are an open issue which I will discuss when the right people wake up
<psyke83> kwwii: if you can throw the gtkrc my way I'd appreciate it, or let me know the new colour definitions. I'd like to experiment with the button shading and gradients some more, and knowing the colours you're aiming for will help
<kwwii> psyke83: will do...I should have an idea of what I want in a few minutes
<kwwii> still working on gdm
<psyke83> great, thanks
<mac_v> kwwii: the notification area tweak would be nice , DBO already has an idea , he just needs th go ahead from you guys :)
<kwwii> mac_v: what is that?
<mac_v> kwwii: notice in UNR window list the inactive window icon becomes desaturated and less opaque , DBO wrote that patch , i asked him if the same can be done for the notification area , he said it can be done..
<mac_v> we could just desaturate the notification area icons
<mac_v> that would fix all apps using the area
<kwwii> mac_v: but possibly ruin the look/use of some of the icons
<mac_v> kwwii: all we need to do is to allow error icons to have the red color ,
<mac_v> i dont think the look would be lost , it would for window list
<mac_v> it works for *
<psyke83> Cimi: going back to the scrollbar bug - let's ignore Firefox entirely. Speaking for all other applications, is there any way to allow the scrollbar itself be clickable with a >0 trough?
<Cimi> I don't think so
<Cimi> but with other applications work
<Cimi> at least here it seems to work
<psyke83> Cimi: no, other apps don't work. When you click on the area beside the scrollbar itself, it treats the click as a page up/down (depending on the mouse position relative to the centre of the scrollbar)
<psyke83> ideally when you click in that area, it grabs the scrollbar itself (this is very useful for laptop users with touchpads)
<psyke83> sorry, the click is not relative to the scrollbar's centre
<psyke83> well the behaviour is unpredictable at the top or bottom of a page
<mac_v> psyke83: could you pull from > $bzr branch lp:humanity and check if the volume mute is better?
<psyke83> mac_v: will do
<psyke83> mac_v: I'm not so sure. What about making the three dots the same size as the smallest bar for the other volume levels?
<mac_v> psyke83:  , i tried that , but the band was too thick :(
<mac_v> hmm , i could make it a little bigger
<psyke83> mac_v: well, if it were, I, I would make it consistent with the other icons (a solid speaker and three semi-transparent bars) :)
<psyke83> *if it were me
<psyke83> oops, heh
<psyke83> I need to get more sleep ;)
<mac_v> hehe , that doesnt work looks bad :/
<psyke83> mac_v: another idea is that you can redesign the icon - change the volume indicator to a cone. 100% volume is a wide angle, and 0% is quite narrow
 * ckontros waves
<mac_v> aw... :( , redoing it now is a bit difficult , but after the beta ;)
<psyke83> not an actual cone, but rather a cone shape... so if you have three bars, you could have it like this, with the three bars from left to right: 100% - 3px, 8px, 12px; 66% - 3 px, 6px, 8px; 33% - 3px, 4px, 6px
<psyke83> well I hope you get the idea
<psyke83> hey ckontros, I see you changed your nick :P
<psyke83> mac_v: so make it the same as it is now, but the angle reduces with the volume
<mac_v> psyke83: oh , neat idea ;) but Dan doesnt want the shapes to change :(
<ckontros> psyke83: Yep. Been wanting to do it for a while. Little more professional.
<psyke83> I forget, is Kontros originally a Greek or Slavic name?
<ckontros> Polish or Czech. Never really found out for sure.
<psyke83> it's weird, I always associate it with Greek for some reason
<ckontros> :)
<psyke83> maybe something I read in greek philosophy when I was in university ;P
<ckontros> I'm a big mut in the end. Lots of folks, um, "havin' relations" with each other in my background. :P
<psyke83> aren't we all
<psyke83> ;)
<psyke83> there's no pure races anymore... the only eugenics programs that survived WW2 were in the Krufts dog show :P
<ckontros> Seems so. Some tribal people left I suppose.
<psyke83> mac_v: who is Dan?
<mac_v> psyke83: Daniel fore , he is the one who started the theme[and elementary]
<psyke83> as, I see
<psyke83> *ah
<psyke83> mac_v: what app do you use to edit icons?
<mac_v> psyke83: inkscape
<psyke83> thanks
<dashua> ckontros, Sup mate? Nice changes to Breathe :)
<ckontros> dashua: Thanx to Daniel. We have some more things to work. I'm still settling back in N.C. but I'll get to it soon.
<dashua> Definite improvement.
<kwwii> for those not on the #dx channel: http://people.canonical.com/~njpatel/network-love.png?
<dashua> The first set of edits were a little too saturated, but these are quite nice
 * ckontros reminds himself to sync and test latest disks.
<kwwii> oopps wrong channel
<dashua> kwwii, New nm-applet is nice
<andreasn> too big icon?
<njpatel> well, what does the icon mean?
<njpatel> ethernet loves me?
<kwwii> that icon makes absolutely no sense
<andreasn> a star like firefox maybe?
<kwwii> my wired network is my favorite?
<kwwii> sure, it is faster...whatever is faster is my favorite
<andreasn> is there some kind of hierarchy going on there? it looks slightly odd that active and the things below are intended to the right a bunch of pixels
<dashua> ckontros, http://www.ubuntu-pics.de/bild/25704/screenshot_QEGrd2.png
<dashua> Just awesome.
<ckontros> dashua: Pretty slick. :)
<njpatel> andreasn: yep, it's meant to be like:
<dashua> <3 Breathe
<njpatel> [TYPE]
<njpatel> __[ACTIVE]
<njpatel> __[LIST]
<njpatel> __[INACTIVE]
<njpatel> __[LIST]
<njpatel> weird
<dashua> ckontros, What do you think about the grey scale panel icons for Breathe?
<ckontros> dashua/kwwii: Isn't there still code needed for that?
<dashua> Inherits Humanity too is nice.
<dashua> ckontros, Not sure.
<dashua> Oh wow.  it's  a major discussion about that now.
<kwwii> hehe, I think the current grey scale icons need improvement (the humanity ones)...they are *way* too light
 * kwwii gets dinner
<zniavre> im wondering why next/previous/pause/pause notification icons are made cause it does not work at all
<zniavre> pause/play *
<kwwii> zniavre: because the design is sometimes ahead of the code
<zniavre> :o)  they worked on jaunty alpha
<ckontros> If someone needs me, PM.
<kwwii> zniavre: then that means that the names were changed or the code no longer does what it was supposed ot
<kwwii> or the funtionality was simply changed
<natewiebe13> being that the artwork deadline has passed.. does that mean gdm is going to stay as-is? (for karmic)
<FLOZz> Hello all  _o/
<mac_v> kwwii: the icons can be darkened ;) thats not a problem , they were made light because UNR guys asked for it to be light
<mac_v> there is also a simple solution for UNR , make a panel icon theme only for Dark panels > name it Humanity Dark[or whatever] ... this theme will contain only the light panel icons which will be a very small size <0.2mb , include the inherits as humanity main... so when UNR uses the light icons it would work well for it
<mac_v> kwwii: any decision on the panel icons?
<mac_v> do you guys want it darker?
<mrmcq2u_> who created that new wallpaper with the stones in karmic?
<zniavre> this one is really nice
<kwwii> mac_v: I talked to david about it and I think he wants to put the human icons into humanity for karmic because there is not enough time to make sure that all the icons which appear in the panel are made with the new style
<mac_v> kwwii: i was talking to david too! you guy are shuffling it around :( ...
<mac_v> he said you wanted the human ions!
<mac_v> icons*
<kwwii> lol
<kwwii> mac_v: when the decision to use humanity was made one day before beta freeze, I stopped feeling responsible for this
<mac_v> kwwii: if the brightness is the issue we can just make them darekr
<kwwii> mac_v: in any case, I would make them darker
<mac_v> kwwii: yeah, i know... how you feel
<kwwii> I do like the icons, they are *amazingly* similar to the panel icons I made for human but never used
<mac_v> they were made light because UNR guys wante dit light!
<mac_v> wanted it light
<kwwii> I mean, I will still do whatever I can to make things as good as possible
<kwwii> yeah, that is exactly what I thought
<mac_v> kwwii: they wanted it even lighter
<kwwii> with a dark panel they need to be lighter
<mac_v> exactly
<kwwii> but for a light panel they need to be dark
<mac_v> thats why there needs to be 2 version
<kwwii> I addressed this issue when I made my 2d panel icons
<mac_v> vesions*
<kwwii> I know
<mac_v> kwwii: the simplest solution for all would be move the light icons to a separate package...
<mac_v> kwwii: either way , how do we proceed now?
<mac_v> kwwii: the sad part is ... david doesnt know about icons , and is not able to decide... pls take chage of this problem
<mrmcq2u_> nooooooooooo's
<mrmcq2u_> dont take the notification icons away :(
<mrmcq2u_> please :D
<mac_v> mrmcq2u_: from backlog > there is also a simple solution for UNR , make a panel icon theme only for Dark panels > name it Humanity Dark[or whatever] ... this theme will contain only the light panel icons which will be a very small size <0.2mb , include the inherits as humanity main... so when UNR uses the light icons it would work well for it
<kwwii> mac_v: for karmic, because we cannot change code, either a) all the necessary icons are made to satisfactory quality in the simple style or b) you move them for now into another package and use other ones (whether that is human or not is another issue)
<kwwii> mac_v: that panel icon set would have to be on top of humanity
<mac_v> kwwii: thats for the UNR version
<kwwii> ie it would be the theme set in the system and then only fallback on humanity
<kwwii> right
<mac_v> Ubuntu can use the dark icons
<mrmcq2u_> well I am using a dark panel atm
<kwwii> mrmcq2u_: then you could install the humanity-dark theme and use it, it would also point to the normal humanity set with the light icons
<kwwii> erm dark
<kwwii> boah, this can get confusing
<mac_v> kwwii: its confusing for us but the end user wouldnt know ;)
<mrmcq2u_> the one issue I found was the messages applet, when I get a new message I think it would be great if it changed to completely white to highlight it
<kwwii> mac_v: exactly
<kwwii> I did not realize the problem when david was talking to me
<mac_v> mrmcq2u_: just fixed that problem
<mrmcq2u_> kwwii - would humanity dark and humanity light come as default on karmic?
<kwwii> when I did the unr icons originaly I wanted to use two sets
<kwwii> mrmcq2u_: depending on the file size, yes
<kwwii> it would be installable in any case
<kwwii> they share the same repos to some extent
<mac_v> kwwii: those icons are very small
<kwwii> mac_v: right, but the disk is very full
<kwwii> I imagine the extra kb's I saved in the wallpaper package would be enough
<mac_v> let me just tell you exactly how much
<kwwii> but I cannot promise that
<kwwii> especially after beta freeze
<kwwii> getting a new package included will be very hard
<kwwii> any new package
<mac_v> kwwii: <292.6kb!
<mrmcq2u_> would be nice if the panel could say, "hey I am dark use the dark set" and "hey I am light use the light set" dynamically, but then it wouldn't be the gnome panel we know and love :D
<kwwii> and I cannot promise any space at all, pitti could
<kwwii> mrmcq2u_: that is the plan for lucid
<kwwii> I have been fighting for that for years
<mrmcq2u_> lolz, I have mentioned it several times also
<kwwii> I made icons a long time ago for it ;)
<mac_v> kwwii: how much is the size of the human icons? i bet they are bigger than humanity's ;)
<mrmcq2u_> color management is very difficult with gtk, I proposed that an abstraction layer was created which took the color hash code and abstracted it to more simpler color management(sort of like all of the hash codes in this string are diffferent shades of "blue", if one of these is used then use the blue template etc
<mac_v> kwwii: i asked seb he says that space is no probs
<mrmcq2u_> kwwii - the new gdm gtk theme is nice by the way :D
<kwwii> mac_v: no humanity is larger than human
<kwwii> but I also removed the tangerine theme
<mac_v> i meant the panel icons alone
<kwwii> mrmcq2u_: thnx, it still needs icons
<kwwii> mac_v: btw, that is something else...we have icons for the panel in gdm, they should go in humanity as well
<mrmcq2u_> kwwii is it possible to have the same panel layout in the mockups atm, instead of the three dropboxes?
<kwwii> mrmcq2u_: I wish we could remove them but I don't have a developer who has time to do it
<kwwii> also, I want to remove the computer icon
<mac_v> kwwii:  i didnt understand?
<mrmcq2u_> kwwii - theres always lucid
<mac_v> about the panel^
<kwwii> mac_v: in gdm there is a panel with icons in it...mat already made icons for it (simple white ones)
<kwwii> those will need to go in humanity I guess (if they are to be used)
<kwwii> or again, we make a special set just for that and use it for gdm
<kwwii> but the problem with making all these different sets is that they show up in the icon chooser capplet
<mac_v> kwwii: if it is a dark panel , we can use the icons from the humanity dark version , no need extra icons
<mrmcq2u_> mac_v ->http://www.freeimagehosting.net/image.php?68f689f6cc.png
<kwwii> mac_v: right, but mat has icons he wants to be used, they are in the mockup
<kwwii> he said he would send them
<mrmcq2u_> the icons which kwwi wants to use are seen in the mockup here ->
<mrmcq2u_> http://d0od.blogspot.com/2009/09/karmic-gdm-design.html
<mrmcq2u_> god damn, i always either leave out an i or a w in your nick kwwii :D
<kwwii> you should try typing my full name then :p
<kwwii> Kenneth Wesley Wimer II
<knome> kwwii, i always think your last name is wilmer :P
<kwwii> lol
<mrmcq2u_> :D
<kwwii> back in the day people always asked why my nick was K-World War II
<knome> lol
<kwwii> coming from the KDE community kinda helped that
<mrmcq2u_> Now that I think of it is ubuntu the first distro to use a custom theme with the new gdm
<knome> kwwii, lol!
<kwwii> I wonder if anyone knows that I am still a kde ev member and still work on kde
<knome> well you can imagine how people is surprised that i don't use either kde or gnome ;)
<mrmcq2u_> hehehehe
<kwwii> michael meeks tore me a new a**hole on the plane the other day for making oxygen (I killed Tango!)
<knome> :P
<mrmcq2u_> :D
<mrmcq2u_> if the workspaces supported individual wallpapers you could almost make the new stones wallpaper into a panoramic one by turning the second workspace wallpaper upside down :D
<mrmcq2u_> actually you would need to flip it from the right side to the left
<kwwii> interesting idea
<mrmcq2u_> extra polish without the need to create extra work :D :P lolz
<mrmcq2u_> I think there needs to be a humanity panel icon for bluetooth too
<kwwii> mrmcq2u_: that is part of the problem
<kwwii> it is not just about picking dark or light panel icons, but making sure that *all* icons which appear next to another are in the same style
<mrmcq2u_> kwwii - I think it would be ok if bluetooth icon was changed, in my view there shouldnt be any more icons in the notification area so it wouldn't matter
<kwwii> mrmcq2u_: there are more icons that can appear there
<kwwii> a lot more
<kwwii> in lots of packages
<kwwii> which are not in themes
<kwwii> so it is hard to know where
<mrmcq2u_> kwwii-that can be worked on for lucid
<mrmcq2u_> kwwii- can you have different wallpapers for different workspaces in ubuntu yet, I saw a blog post saying it landed in gnome a long time ago?
<kwwii> not sure, I never tried and am currently running windows to watch a movie (after jaunty alpha fscked my dvd drive it only works with windows :p)
 * kwwii needs to buy and install a new dvd drive
<mrmcq2u_> http://gsocblog.jsharpe.net/archives/15
<mrmcq2u_> kwwii -> my drive seems borked too :( annoying when it takes about 3 hours to get it to boot a live cd :(
<mac_v> kwwii: or... we make the panel icons dark and...  we just dont use the icons for UNR ?
<kwwii> ok, so let's talk about this in an orderly way....let me explain the choices
<mac_v> sure
<kwwii> a) we leave things as they are
<kwwii> b) we make the panel icons darker and create a special set for UNR which is selected as the system default and falls back to humanity
<kwwii> c) we incorporate the human panel icons into humanity
<kwwii> oops, b) also means making all the missing icons for most people
<kwwii> I run kmail and it puts an icon there as well, but I don't think we need to worry about cases like that
<mac_v> as in app icons?
<kwwii> yes
<kwwii> well the icons that apps put in the system tray area
<kwwii> anything on the top right should have the same style
<djsiegel> kwwii: don't worry about app icons that go in the tray
<djsiegel> no, not for Karmic, that is way out of scope
<kwwii> djsiegel: the important apps would be easy
<kwwii> the ones installed by default
<djsiegel> kwwii: you sure?
<djsiegel> easy for you? for Dan?
<mac_v> kwwii:  i would say, we just draw a line and say , only system icons are greyscale ....
<kwwii> djsiegel: otherwise it will also look like crap on a default install
<kwwii> rhthym box
<kwwii> etc
<mac_v> the rest are color , thats how win7 does it too ;)
<kwwii> there are only a few
<djsiegel> kwwii: yeah... I just think those icons are going to end up in other places
<mac_v> ^
<mac_v> thats the problem^
<djsiegel> you will have a little gray RB icon somewhere
<kwwii> and some of them could be made from the 2d icons I made for human
<kwwii> djsiegel: good point
<kwwii> well, in most cases it is just the app icon
<kwwii> at 22x22
<kwwii> but that is shown in the menu as well
<mac_v> yeah
<kwwii> shit...I hate icons
<djsiegel> haha
<djsiegel> kwwii: let's aim for a panel-only-icons solution for Lucid
<djsiegel> for karmic, let's just have light stencil indicators, a small set
<kwwii> djsiegel: yeah, I guess that is the best solution for now
<djsiegel> and apps that still put stuff up there will look wrong
<mac_v> kwwii: lets stick to system icons for Karmic and find a solution in lucid
<djsiegel> the app will look wrong, not the volume icon
<kwwii> mac_v: lets work on the ones included in humanity now though...they could be much sexier
<mac_v> ;)
<kwwii> anything that causes a problem should not be used
<djsiegel> kwwii: I kept asking Dan to consider a humanity-panel-dark and humanity-panel-light themes
<djsiegel> if we could do that for Karmic, that would be great
<kwwii> I'll hlp work on them this weeekend
<djsiegel> use your status icos
<djsiegel> icons
<djsiegel> they are cleaner and nicer
<kwwii> djsiegel: it would be really easy
<djsiegel> etc
<djsiegel> if it's easy,we should do that
<mac_v> kwwii: djsiegel: Ubuntu was never on the table , so we were doing what the UNR guys were asking
<djsiegel> the 1-theme-fits-dark-and-light panels will never work
<djsiegel> mac_v: that's not what I consistently told Dan
<kwwii> mac_v: unr will need the second theme to use lighter icons
<mac_v> and then djsiegel dropped the bomb ;p
<kwwii> it is that simple
<kwwii> either that or we use human icons in humanity for the panel
<djsiegel> I said over and over again that I was pushing for humanity in the desktop and Dan should not focus only on URN :)
<kwwii> djsiegel: the problem was pushing it in one day before beta without testing
<djsiegel> kwwii: we either need to stick with humanity now, as it sort of works on dark and light, or we need to use your forking approach
<kwwii> sorry, but I will be honest...no hard feelings
<djsiegel> kwwii: what do you mean without testing, it has been tested
<kwwii> it kinda pissed me off to some extent
<djsiegel> I've gotten about 50 people to try
<mac_v> kwwii: i think for UNR w do all the crazy stuff > either not use the icons or replace it with HUman , ... lets fix humanity for Ubuntu
<kwwii> djsiegel: apparently not, or we would not be having this dicsussion
<djsiegel> kwwii: Well, I never thought it was perfect
<djsiegel> apparently people want the panel icons darker
<djsiegel> I admit, I want darker too
<kwwii> djsiegel: again, it has more to do with the timing than the decision
<djsiegel> yeah I suppose, it was so late
<djsiegel> We should have gotten the boss to say yes a few weeks ago..
<mac_v> djsiegel: as i said , i was the one who made them light! :( , its was because UNR asked... and Dan told me to do it for unr
<djsiegel> I guess Dan didn't believe we could get them on the desktop :)
<mac_v> and Ubuntu was not going to use humanity :(
<kwwii> that and the email from mark telling me it was ok that I put it in UNR, he can live with that, but I should not use it anywhere else :p
<mrmcq2u_> rhythmbox should not be in the notification area to begin with, the reason it is is because of lack of features in metacity, in my view you should just concentrate on system icons.
<djsiegel> at the end of the day, I think people will really like the change
<kwwii> mrmcq2u_: yes, all media players do that
<kwwii> as do email apps
<kwwii> well, we have the notification menu for evolution
<djsiegel> no, email apps go in the messaging menu now, rgight?
<kwwii> but anyway
<kwwii> right
<kwwii> ;)
<kwwii> I say, just make them dark and sexy..test it to make sure no other apps put icons there in the default install and make a light theme with just the light versions of this called "humanity-dark" or such and set that is the default in UNR with a fall back to humanity
<kwwii> it is either that or copy human icons into humanity
<kwwii> teh simple style is the way forward, in my opinion
<knome> nah, make it as complex as possible
<kwwii> although the icons could use some refinement, we have until monday to change things
<kwwii> :p
<mac_v> kwwii: great... Ubuntu > darken them...    for UNR its better we copy Human
<knome> actually, we joked about creating an icon theme with *circles* only
<mac_v> since Dust is not purely a dark theme
<kwwii> mac_v: no! either or
<kwwii> ahhh
<knome> and it turned out to be quite powerful
<kwwii> good point
<kwwii> shit
<kwwii> I give up
<kwwii> copy the human icons into humanity for karmic and be done with it
<kwwii> for both unr and the desktop
<mac_v> kwwii: we can just branch upstream version > Humanity-UNR
<kwwii> djsiegel: send you email :p in the end that is the only real solution
<mac_v> with not icons
<mac_v> with no*
<kwwii> mac_v: you have to think about the possibility that the source repos/packages are the saem
<kwwii> same
<kwwii> install one app from ubuntu and you might change a lot more than you think
<djsiegel> I was told Human icons can't go in UNR
<djsiegel> because you can't see them on the dark panel
<mac_v> djsiegel: yes
<djsiegel> this situation with dark & light panels is so aggravating
<mac_v> kwwii: that too^
<zniavre> why HumanLogin is using industrial engine ?
<mac_v> UNR can only use the gnome icons
<kwwii> zniavre: because it is fast and could do what I wanted
<kwwii> zniavre: btw, your name is going in on monday
<mac_v> thats why i suggested make UNR's panel light ;p
<kwwii> djsiegel: ok, that is another factor then
<zniavre> thank very much you kwwii
<djsiegel> kwwii: there are too many factors
<djsiegel> if we have to use just 1 icon theme, same on desktop and UNR, let's use Humanity as is
<kwwii> djsiegel: no doubt
<zniavre> i tried clearlooks instaed of industrial i have the feeling it much better
<mrmcq2u_> just create two versions, one for dark and one for light
<djsiegel> if we can do a darker panel variation
<djsiegel> if we can do darker panel icons on the desktop, we should
<zniavre> i can't screenshot but you should have a try maybe ?
<djsiegel> but I was told that is too difficult
<mac_v> kwwii: what is the problem , previously only UNR used Humanity... now ubuntu will use humanity ... and UNR will use humanity-UNR... why would there be a confusion?
<kwwii> djsiegel: we have more than one open bug about the visibility of the icons on the light colored panel of the desktop
<mrmcq2u_> The current humanity icons dont look bad on light or dark panels in my opinion  too
<djsiegel> kwwii: people are saying they cannot see them?
<kwwii> djsiegel: they have complained that they are too light
<mac_v> kwwii: > http://imagebin.ca/view/oFRenHr.html ;p
<djsiegel> kwwii: yes, but are they just whining?
<djsiegel> kwwii: I don't think they are so light to be unusable or even ugly
<kwwii> no, they look similar to desaturated inactive widgets
<djsiegel> I would like darker, but if people are saying "OMG I WANT HUMAN BACK" they may just be being dramatic
<mrmcq2u_> it does seem popular with people on ubuntu forums
<djsiegel> kwwii: hmm
<mrmcq2u_> what about the good reviews of the new artwork thus far on the blogosphere
<kwwii> we oculd do as mac_v and I have suggested before and have two different sets
<kwwii> one for UNR and one for the desktop
<djsiegel> yes, I think that is good, but the packaging gods said it would be too hard
<djsiegel> if that is easy, I think we should
<kwwii> oh, it is easy...I can do it
<kwwii> but the icons need to be changed
<djsiegel> mac_v and DanRabbit can do that quickly, I bet
<kwwii> once the icons are changed it is almost a matter of a sed command
<kwwii> I would help as well...I'd like to see some refinements to the current versions
<mac_v> awesome , super kwwii to the rescue
<djsiegel> kwwii: ok, Dan is coming in here
<kwwii> one bad thing about using large sized svgs for small icons is that they tend to look blocky
<dashua> mac_v, http://www.ubuntu-pics.de/bild/25720/screenshot_003_wQZrQJ.png
<dashua> Much clearer :)
<djsiegel> kwwii: please make DanRabbit and mac_v do your bidding
<kwwii> cool, I wondered why he wasn't until now
<djsiegel> I will get these U1 icons to the U1 guys
<mac_v> kwwii: DanRabbit is usually hanging out in ayatana
<kwwii> ahhh
<DanRabbit> I'm here
<kwwii> hey
<mac_v> dashua: i think we would loose those icons ;) so back them up
<kwwii> I am heading out in a bit, 22:18 here..I do have something left of a social life :p
<mac_v> dashua: i.e they would get lighter
<mac_v> kwwii: sure... ping me later ;)
<kwwii> DanRabbit: the idea so far is to make two versions of the panel icons, one light for UNR and one dark for the desktop...are you ok with that?
<dashua> mac_v, =/
<kwwii> mac_v: there won't be any later where I am going :)
<DanRabbit> Yea, mac_v and I have been asking about it ;)
<dashua> I have a debian package made with them
<kwwii> so we would have the humanity-dark theme for UNR and the humanity theme for the desktop
<kwwii> -dark meaning it is meant for a dark theme and the panel icons are lighter
<DanRabbit> right
<mac_v> kwwii: ah , you are confusong again!
<kwwii> dashua: you rock, any packaging help is greatly appreciated
<mac_v> no icons in the dark theme ;
<kwwii> mac_v: ??? what did I say wrong?
<mac_v> kwwii: if we make them lighter , they will be lost in the windows
<mac_v> for duat
<mac_v> dust
<mrmcq2u_> mac_v - dark=light icons light=dark icons
<kwwii> mac_v: duh, right
<kwwii> boahhhhhhhh
<mac_v> mrmcq2u_: dust is not a full dark theme thats the problem!
<DanRabbit> hmm
<mac_v> kwwii: we , just remove the icons from the Humanity dark
<kwwii> mac_v: ok, so explain what I decided :p
<kwwii> lol
<DanRabbit> good point
<mrmcq2u_> people can figure out which one to use with their theme, they aren't idiots you know :D
<dashua> kwwii, Not really fluent.  Just grabbed Karmic's source, stole the debian dir, bumped the version, and built from trunk.
<kwwii> mac_v: but there was a complaint that the colored icons are hard to see in the dark panel
<dashua> Sure it's not proper
<mrmcq2u_> as long as the option exists for dark and light panels there should'nt be a problem
<dashua> I would love to help though if needed
<mac_v> kwwii: we remove the humanity's panel icons and let gnome handle those icons ,
<mac_v> that works well
<kwwii> dashua: yeah, that is the best way to start..it really isn't that hard (and it won't build until you get all the pieces right!)
<kwwii> mac_v: right, agreed
<kwwii> djsiegel: ok with you?
<djsiegel> I am having trouble following
<djsiegel> can you summarize?
<kwwii> yes
<mac_v> djsiegel: Ubuntu = Humanity+its own panel icons
<djsiegel> Just to raise spirits, if none of this works, despite what some bug reporters say, I think humanity is still great on the desktop as-is :)
<djsiegel> yeah, perfect
<djsiegel> UNR = current humanity
<mac_v> UNR = Humanity - panel icons ;0
<djsiegel> right?
<djsiegel> no panel icons?
<mac_v> yeah
<djsiegel> it will fall back to what, GNOME?
<mac_v> yup
<djsiegel> eww
<kwwii> a) we make the current panel icons a darker , b) we remove them in the humanity-dark theme for UNR, letting those fall back to gnome
<djsiegel> why?
<kwwii> I do admit that it is the easiest solution
<DanRabbit> because Dust is a hybrid theme
<djsiegel> why can't Humanity stay as-is in UNR, the light icons look good on the dark panel
<djsiegel> oh, ok
<DanRabbit> it can't use monochrome icons
<mac_v> djsiegel: UNR cant use human icons either , and making the icons lighter for UNR , will make them less visible in the apps
<DanRabbit> right
<kwwii> Dust will show the light icons in those network manager widgets you showed me earlier
<djsiegel> So, UNR is getting Humanity with GNOME panel icons
<djsiegel> Desktop is getting Humanity with darker icons
<mac_v> yup
<kwwii> right
<DanRabbit> I need to make a Humanity GTK theme....
<djsiegel> and why is Humanity + GNOME panel > Humanity + Human panel
<kwwii> it is the easiest solution so far, and all our UNR customers got something else anyway :p
<mac_v> kwwii: UNR devs where any way asking for human icons ;)
<djsiegel> last thing to do is make /sure/ this is feasible
<djsiegel> packaging wise
<kwwii> djsiegel: because one is dark and one is light...there is no way to make one set of icons for both
<djsiegel> god I hate IRC
<kwwii> djsiegel: it is easy, but we have to maintain two sets of icons
<kwwii> djsiegel: yeah
<djsiegel> kwwii: I am not worried about having two sets
<kwwii> a call would solve this much faster
<djsiegel> I am worried about it actually working
<kwwii> djsiegel: at this point, neither am it
<kwwii> ok it will work, that is not a problem
<djsiegel> ok
<djsiegel> I was *told* we have to use the same icon theme in both
<djsiegel> so I don't know who to believe
<djsiegel> but your solution sounds good, kwwii
<mac_v> djsiegel: kwwii is the king ;p
<djsiegel> darker icons on the desktop, great
<knome> mac_v, no, sabdfl is the king
<dashua> DanRabbit, bzr branch lp:~dashua/hanso/humanitytheme made a hack a few months ago
<djsiegel> You can have a dictator and a king
<knome> djsiegel, you can go say that to mark
<knome> ;]
<mac_v> knome: nope , not for black themes , he is not ;p kwwii rocks
<knome> hmm
<dashua> Not my best work, but it was a start
<DanRabbit> hehe
<djsiegel> knome, I like your nick :)
<djsiegel> lol
<mrmcq2u_> maybe you guys need to set up an xmpp channel for this type of situation
<djsiegel> I am breaking out from all this karmic stress
<kwwii> djsiegel: who told you that?
<knome> djsiegel, hah, thanks ;) i use xfce by the way ;]]
<djsiegel> kwwii: I think lool
<djsiegel> \
<kwwii> I can imagine that someone might have something against using two sets
<mrmcq2u_> then you could start a conference call for resolving confusion
<kwwii> because they do not want to have to maintain them
<kwwii> djsiegel: I will talk to lool and njpatel...we have until monday :D
<mrmcq2u_> well nobodies objected so far
<djsiegel> kwwii: ok :)
<knome> mrmcq2u_, i like that "so far" part
<kwwii> one thing I did to make the lighter icons work better was to add a light and dark outline to them, making them seem inset
<djsiegel> so, I bought Thriller the other day
<djsiegel> and it's this special anniversary edition
<djsiegel> it has remixes by Fergie and Kanye
<mrmcq2u_> http://digg.com/d315ZMz
<djsiegel> Kanye and Fergie add nothing of value to MJ's work
<mrmcq2u_> "the notification area icons are now all uniform in color and theme which gives it a much more professional feel."
<mrmcq2u_> :D
<djsiegel> mrmcq2u_: kwwii mac_v DanRabbit yes, people are really liking humanity
<mac_v> hehe ;0
<kwwii> making the UI bg a bit darker and more saturated might make the difference as well
<mac_v> djsiegel: dont worry , , there are haters too ;)
<kwwii> DanRabbit: if possible, could you join this channl tomorrow as well?
<DanRabbit> yea no problem
<kwwii> cool
<knome> mrmcq2u_, the desktop background reminds me of orange windows >__<
<mrmcq2u_> mac_v - are'nt there always haters
<mrmcq2u_> knome - I like the stones :D
<kwwii> https://launchpad.net/human-panel-icons
 * mac_v cant find these elusive wallpapers
<kwwii> 2008-1-30
<knome> mrmcq2u_, out of those pictures, i like the first or the grass the best
<kwwii> mac_v: ?
<pace_t_zulu> hey guys... just wanted to give you guys props for the 'humanity' theme...
<kwwii> DanRabbit: ^-^
<mrmcq2u_>  like the grass and the stone ones the best
<mrmcq2u_> hahahahahahahahaha @ pace_t_zulu
<mrmcq2u_> what timing :D
<pace_t_zulu> ?
<kwwii> I am out for tonight
<pace_t_zulu> mrmcq2u_: i don't understand
<kwwii>  https://launchpad.net/human-panel-icons
<kwwii> 22:34  * mac_v cant find these elusive wallpapers
<kwwii> 22:34 < kwwii> 2008-1-30
<kwwii> ahhhhhhhh
<kwwii> sorry
<mac_v> kwwii: i only have the space... i cant see any of them...
<mac_v> maybe i missed an update
<kwwii> sounds like it
<mrmcq2u_> pace_t_zulu - the humanity icons issues where just discussed
<pace_t_zulu> mrmcq2u_: to what end?
<DanRabbit> Kwwii: I always thought about doing an etched version ;)
<kwwii> DanRabbit, mac_v, djsiegel that link to the panel icons has some idea for simpler icons
<kwwii> DanRabbit: that might really help with the contrast issue
<kwwii> DanRabbit: we should talk more tomorrow...I can help make/tweak any icons needed
<mrmcq2u_> pace_t_zulu -> the notification area icons visibility on light and dark themes
<mac_v> ooh proprietary... /me scared ;p
<DanRabbit> sounds good
<DanRabbit> I'll be free mostly all morning :)
<kwwii> cool, see you tomorrow..time for fun ;)
<kwwii> great
<mrmcq2u_> have a good friday kwwii :D
<mac_v> well it saturday here ;p
<pace_t_zulu> i just realized the theme is still call human
<djsiegel> I wish we hid the cursor at xsplash, kwwii
<DanRabbit> yea, it seems silly to have a cursor that you can do nothing with ;)
 * mrmcq2u_ ponders why update manager is trying to install pidgin on my system :S
<DanRabbit> it's good for you :D
<djsiegel> mac_v DanRabbit, I am getting a missing icon in update-manager while it is running updates
<DanRabbit> Yea, we don't know what it is
<DanRabbit> it's not present in any theme anywhere
<mac_v> djsiegel: that is a bug in the update manager
<DanRabbit> a bug has been filed against update-manager
<DanRabbit> ;)
<djsiegel> saaaweeeet
<kwwii> welcome the wonderful world of post freeze themeing issues
<knome> haha
<kwwii> where did it come from? where did it go?
<mac_v> hehe
<mac_v> kwwii: so will the human theme change to brown for Jaunty and older users too
<kwwii> mac_v: yes
<djsiegel> mac_v DanRabbit, any idea what is with the big heart icon in the nm-applet menu?
<DanRabbit> screenshot?
<mac_v> djsiegel: it is for favorites
<DanRabbit> it's for how much I love networking
<djsiegel> I thought Humanity has a star for that
<DanRabbit> You want the star back?
 * mac_v  wants start back too
<mac_v> star*
<DanRabbit> We'll have to fight Jonian with a stick... he'll keep changing it..
<mac_v> exactly!
<djsiegel> DanRabbit: one sec
<djsiegel> DanRabbit: http://imgur.com/P1HtS.png
<DanRabbit> oh yea
<DanRabbit> that's cute..
<DanRabbit> ;)
<DanRabbit> I'll put the star back
<Cimi> who poked me?
<DanRabbit> CIMI
<DanRabbit> When do we get rounded corners in menus
<DanRabbit> ??
<DanRabbit> I will die waitig.
<Cimi> never
<DanRabbit> waiting*
<DanRabbit> why??
<DanRabbit> Don't tell me it can't be done, cimi
<DanRabbit> I know you can
<DanRabbit> you are like god with GTK themes
<Cimi> it already works
<Cimi> but only with rgba
<DanRabbit> okay, so how do I do it??
<Cimi> I can't explain now
<zniavre> DanRabbit, http://gnome-look.org/content/show.php/Another+Gtk+RGBA+module+?content=100968
<DanRabbit> zniavre: can this work for menus in gnome?
<DanRabbit> That's all I want ;)
<zniavre> it works well with metacity and some gtk apps (not all)
<zniavre> http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/2824/capture1xl.png
<djsiegel> oh man, the cherries background got cropped
<djsiegel> too bad
 * DanRabbit ---> work
<KurtKraut> The artwork deadline was yesterday. How can I know the default artwork that has been choosed for Karmic?
<knome> deadlines dp not always actually mean everything is finished.
<knome> *dp=do
<KurtKraut> knome, so the final artwork isn't decided yet?
<knome> i suppose the current state resembles much what will be final, but i don't know about ubuntu that much.
<knome> (i work for xubuntu)
<KurtKraut> knome, oh, I see.
<knome> KurtKraut, http://news.softpedia.com/news/The-Final-Artwork-of-Ubuntu-9-10-122665.shtml
<KurtKraut> knome, thanks.
<knome> searching google gives more results
<knome> KurtKraut, http://www.andrewmlawrence.com/node/10 to see xsplash artwork
<KurtKraut> knome, nice xsplash!
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-09-26
<mac_v> kwwii: wohoo! figured out how to make Dust use the monochrome icons too ;)
<FLOZz> Hello all  _o/
<kwwii> mac_v: ?
<mac_v> kwwii: it turns out that for the network icons! we just made symlinks rather than icons for the apps! duh! > and there is a solution for the volume applet ,
<mac_v> kwwii: DanRabbit has done a theme , eGTk , which assigns the panel icons for the panel alone
<mac_v> this depends on the stock icons
<mac_v> kwwii: > so all we need to do i add the panel.rc to the dust theme , and we are good to go for the volume
<mac_v> now only the only blocker is the bluetooth!
<kwwii> mac_v: killer...but that does not solved the problems of them begin too light, or?
<mac_v> kwwii: the light/dark shade , i'm fixing... what i meant to say is , we dont have to remove the icons and use the gnome ones as the fallback
<mac_v> we could just have 2 themes , for light and for dark panels
<kwwii> mac_v: ok, now I get it...cool, good work :)
<mac_v> :)
 * kwwii is out for a while...be back much later
<mac_v> kwwii: when you have the time check out the latest rev of the Humanity icons , they are darker now...
<mac_v> and i'v reduced the file sizes of those greyscale icons to 243kb
<kwwii> mac_v: where?
<kwwii> mac_v: I am going out with my son for a while, but I will be back in a couple of hours and doing some work then
<mac_v> sure no hurry ;)
<mac_v> when testing> $bzr branch lp:humanity
<psyke83> i
<psyke83> hi
<kwwii> re
 * ckontros waves.
<kwwii> hey ckontros
<kwwii> #785F52 fits much better with the new karmic wallpaper....ideas anyone?
<kwwii> for the selection bg color, I mean
 * ckontros is gonna test Karmic today.
<andreasn> kwwii, haven't tested it out quite much yet, but the new icons are pretty nice
<kwwii> psyke83 might be more interested in that than anyone
<kwwii> andreasn: yeah, much more modern
<kwwii> although in a month or so we will start making a new icon theme from what I understand
<andreasn> ok
<kwwii> oh well, it seems like I start the computer and 5s later my wife asks me to do something
<kwwii> :p
<andreasn> will the new set be very different from the current one?
 * ckontros thinks Breathe could use some paid help but that's a dream. :P
<mac__v> kwwii: what is the icon label for the lock over the wireless > http://launchpadlibrarian.net/32489762/Screenshot-1.png
<mac__v> i made an odd symlink :/   http://launchpadlibrarian.net/32489702/Screenshot.png
<mac__v> andreasn: any ideas ^ ?
<andreasn> icon label? the name of the file?
<mac__v> yeah
<andreasn> hm, where are these now again
 * andreasn looks
<mac_v> andreasn: found it! > /usr/share/icons/hicolor/22x22/apps/nm-secure-lock.png
<mac_v> damn!
<andreasn> oh
<mac_v> hehe , that would have pissed of a lot of folks!
<mac_v> andreasn: i found it using this neat little app > https://code.launchpad.net/icon-library
<mac_v> pretty useful ;)
<andreasn> cool, I better check that out
<mac_v> lol , i made that wrong link thinking the lock was for something else ...
<d6g> ping mac_v
<mac_v> d6g: hei, does it work correctly now ;)
<d6g> yeah, it is fine
<mac_v> d6g: do you have a screenshot of the current rev?
<d6g> but i have this weired AP on my list which has two icons, and in gnome icon theme, they are different, but now with the latest humanity they look similar
<d6g> wait a sec
<d6g> http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/346/screenshotvg.png
<d6g> here is a comparision between the current humanity and gnome
<DanRabbit> uh-oh
<mac_v> d6g: the similar icon?
<DanRabbit> looks like it wasn't such a good idea to use the same icon ;)
<mac_v> we change the color a bit ;p
<d6g> yeah, i noticed the color is slightly different
<d6g> I guess i have to what the icon on the left means before i can tell if such small difference is too subtle
<mac_v> DanRabbit: asac told that they wanted people to use similar icons for the panel and the tab ,
<mac_v> it makes it easier for recognizing the item
<DanRabbit> yes, only it gives this problem ;)
<mac_v> d6g: what is the color icon for?
<d6g> mac_v: yeah, that's waht i don't know
<mac_v> d6g: the color icons are supposed to appear on the editor tabs , we dont want to use the greyscale icon there... could you pls do another screenshot of the editor menu?
<DanRabbit> this may be a bug in the network manager
<d6g> http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/1466/screenshotnetworkconnec.png
<DanRabbit> Why would it show an extra icon to declare that connection is wireless?
<d6g> ^^ this is also what I'm curious
<mac_v> d6g: is it a previously connected network?
<d6g> no
<mac_v> hrm...
<DanRabbit> ask asac?
<mac_v> DanRabbit: hehe , he just left a few mins ago
<mac_v> half hr
<d6g> btw, the "lock" icon on the menu means encrypted, on the panel it means VPN used, could this also cause somewhat confusion?
<mac_v> DanRabbit: why would it be a problem if we have color icons in the drop down menu?
<mac_v> d6g: both are locks... previously the vpn lock was below , since it was in color... now there is no space below :(
<mac_v> DanRabbit: maybe an icon of a shield?
<mac_v> for encrypted
<d6g> understood, it's fine by me, just think maybe there could be something else representing VPN
<mac_v> d6g: you are right
<DanRabbit> hmm
<DanRabbit> Well, it seems everything else in the dropdown is monochrome
<DanRabbit> so, I think we should try to keep that consistency if possible
<mac_v> DanRabbit: that is not possible :( , then the tabs will be monochrome :/
<ckontros> mac_v: Looks like you're gettin' a better understanding of some of these newer icon uses. (panel ones and all) If you could shoot me off an email with some of you latest tips that Breathe could use for better sopport that would be great.
<mac_v> ckontros: hehe , actually i make bobo's and then realize what the icon is for ;p
<DanRabbit> ah bummer :(
<mac_v> but sure
<mac_v> ckontros: ^
<ckontros> mac_v: Don't we all? :)
<d6g> mac_v: just using iwlist to find out the AP that has two icons is with mode "ad-hoc", all others are "master"
<mac_v> d6g: what is ad-hoc ?
<d6g> not sure, guess its a mode to create an AP?
<mac_v> i made the simlink.. and to a color icon... is thats the color icon
<mac_v> symlink*
<d6g> I suppose that one uses nm-adhoc.svg
<DanRabbit> adhoc is a type of wireless networking
<mac_v> DanRabbit: what type ?
<mac_v> any features?
<d6g> like peer-to-peer, iirc
<DanRabbit> yea, I think so too
<DanRabbit> AFAIK, it's something that you can do without having to have a router
<mac_v> d6g: DanRabbit: oh... then i think the color would make better sense , to differentiate it from the others
<DanRabbit> I'll brb. trying to spend some time with my gf, she's getting jealous of the computer ;)
<d6g> mac_v: if nm-adhoc.svg is not used elsewhere, maybe it can also be re-designed to be more expressive about "adhoc"
<d6g> and i agree that it should be distinguishable from the wirless ap icon
<mac_v> d6g: could you file a bug... right now i would say it is not top priority... but we could fix it before release
<mac_v> i might forget if there is no bug ;)
<d6g> sure
<kwwii> hey kids..my wife is keeping me busy this weekend it seems, sorry
<kwwii> mac_v, DanRabbit: if you feel like you've have a good solution ready for testing in the distro, send it to me per email
<kwwii> or put it in bzr and let me know where and when ;)
<kwwii> mac_v: there will only be major bug fixes from now on...no more time ;(
<mac_v> kwwii: yup...
<mac_v> kwwii: also... the network editor will now have color icons... only one icon will be grey scale in the network editor tab , the wired one... that is because it uses the same icon for the panel and the editor tab[network-device-wired]... i spoke to asac he agreed that
<mac_v> the panel needs to use a different label
<mac_v> since it is for a state indicato
<mac_v> indicator*
<mac_v> he said that he would talk to upstream and try to use a different label
<mac_v> kwwii: if you mention it to him once again on monday , to use the "network-wired" icon instead of the "network-device-wired" icon , it would be great
<mac_v> d6g|away: hmm... i added a stock icon i had for the adhoc.. ;) could you check if it works now
<zniavre> hello / bonsoir
<zniavre> my third daughter is born today im quite happy   :o)
<DanRabbit> congratulations!!
<zniavre> thank you
<mac_v> zniavre: congratulations ...  :)
<zniavre> :o)  thank you too
<knome> congrats zniavre
<thorwil> congratulations zniavre
<knome> hello thorwil
<thorwil> hi knome
<zniavre> thank you all of you :O)
<SiDi> fÃ©licitations zniavre :)
<SiDi> (and, wtf are you doing on irc then ? :P)
<knome> well you know, small children cry and whine a lot
<knome> ;)
<SiDi> tall ones too :P
<knome> yeah
<zniavre> they (mother and baby) are sleeping
<zniavre> merci SiDi
<mac_v> kwwii: solved!... the problem of apps using the icons!
<mac_v> now we dont have to worry about the greyscale icons showing up in the apps
<jonian_g> hi guys. I just created a new preferences system icon. Check it out
<SiDi> hi jonian_g
<SiDi> dont expect people to search trough the whole internet for an icon :P
<jonian_g> it's on humanity icons bzr branch
<jonian_g> sorry. I had to mention first that I'm one of the developers of humanity icons
<jonian_g> there is the link http://bazaar.launchpad.net/%7Eelementaryart/humanity/Humanity/annotate/head%3A/categories/48/preferences-system.svg
<SiDi> hm
<SiDi> i like the idea, but doesnt the toolbox look too sharp on the edges for humanity ?
<jonian_g> I'll see what I can do
<DanRabbit> jonian_g: what does it look like in smaller sizes?
<jonian_g> I haven't created the small sizes, but I'm sure it will look good
<jonian_g> If everyone likes it I'll do the smaller sizes
<DanRabbit> I'm not sure about it
<jonian_g> ... I just uploaded a little modified version (colors)
<DanRabbit> I like the toolbox
<DanRabbit> but, it seems to be kind of ambiguous
<jonian_g> Dan, I'm not a native english speaker, please explain me what ambiguous is
<SiDi> i think it doesnt look in the right place
<SiDi> because its too sharp compared to the other icons
<SiDi> i think thats what DanRabbit means by ambiguous too ? :P
<DanRabbit> it means that you can't really tell for sure what it is in all cases
<DanRabbit> you really don't know what's in the box
<jonian_g> @SiDi: did you saw the second one that I uploaded?
<DanRabbit> it could be anything ;)
<SiDi> jonian_g: i didnt
<SiDi> DanRabbit: its a box with kittens ?
<DanRabbit> :)
<jonian_g> @DanRabbit: Yea... But the screwdriver doesn't look right too (as I told you before). The only thing that a screwdriver can do to a gear is, jam it.
<DanRabbit> hehe
<DanRabbit> I didn't say it was the correct solution, already
<DanRabbit> I just said that it wouldn't make any sense to replace it with another incorrect solution ;)
<jonian_g> you're right
<mac_v> jonian_g: hi... ;)
<mac_v> i think the system prefs icon really bugs you :)
<jonian_g> Also the other tools that can be used to fix a gear are not easily recognizable, so it's a bit of a problem
<jonian_g> hi mac_v
<mac_v> BTW same as what DanRabbit says , the toolbox , can be mistaken in different cultures :(
<jonian_g> yep, it's the only one that bugs me
<mac_v> it looks good though :)
<jonian_g> mac_v:thanks
<mac_v> jonian_g: for time being we still have other icons that can be finished , so i think we can concentrate on completing the set and if we have new ideas we can come back to this
<mac_v> i still dont like the color being orange :( , the whole UNR menu looks jaundiced
<jonian_g> Also, what do you guys think about the desktop-preferences icon. It is very good but it is a bit macish
<mac_v> yeah , my thoughts too^
<mac_v> jonian_g: DanRabbit : i'm thinking maybe we can change the screwdriver the color to red
<jonian_g> not a bad idea
<DanRabbit> Yea, I was thinking that too
<DanRabbit> I like that idea :D
<mac_v> ;)
<jonian_g> So the toolbox is out?
<mac_v> jonian_g: yup , maybe we can use it for some other icon
<mac_v> the toolbox alone
<mac_v> DanRabbit: jonian_g: or... we can place a screwdriver outside the toolbox and use it for the desktop prefs?
<DanRabbit> Eh
<DanRabbit> I don't know
<mac_v> hehe ;p just an idea
<jonian_g> maybe we can use for gconf-editor and the current for gconf-editor for preferences
<DanRabbit> I think we should concentrate on the idea of "Local" or "User" Prefs versus "System" prefs
<DanRabbit> I don't think those ideas are clear enough
<DanRabbit> there is a reason the menus are separated, you know ;)
<mac_v> good point
<jonian_g> I mean, use the same icon for preferences as the human icon theme uses
<DanRabbit> jonian_g: why is the database icon now purple?
<jonian_g> in human icon set: impress(orange), spreadsheet(green), word proccessor(blue), database(purple)
<DanRabbit> Yea, but it looks weird
<mac_v> ah , nice catch!
<jonian_g> maybe it was to help people differentiate the on quick look, so I tjought it was good to keep that
<mac_v> just now i'm noticing  , it was better being chrome colored
<DanRabbit> I agree
<jonian_g> these are also the colors used in ms office. So it helps people that are used to that office suite
<DanRabbit> I suppose, but I don't think we should change the color of real objects just to match other
<jonian_g> yep I think that too
<jonian_g> but I thought that whoever did it in human icons did it for a good reason
<DanRabbit> eh
<DanRabbit> don't worry about Human icons
<DanRabbit> we just replaced Human
<mac_v> ;p
<DanRabbit> so, that says something ;)
<jonian_g> ;)
<DanRabbit> not to say Human isn't a good reference point
<jonian_g> no problem take it back to silver
<DanRabbit> ;)
<jonian_g> it is a good reference point, but the bat is that it is strongly connected to ubuntu
<jonian_g> bad
<jonian_g> so we have to stay close to human (a bit restrictive)
<DanRabbit> In a sense
<DanRabbit> but, I think what has led to our success so far is that we have moved away from Human
<DanRabbit> If we simply cloned Human, there would be no motivation for switching
<mac_v> +1
<mac_v> jonian_g: what icons are you working on right now?
<SiDi> (breaking an app's branding to mimic its main opponent's one is really not a polite thing to do, imo)
<mac_v> SiDi: huh?
<mac_v> i dont think any one wants to break branding
<SiDi> mac_v: its my interpretation of changing an app's icon
<SiDi> :p
<mac_v> SiDi: which icon? did  miss something! damn net split
<SiDi> mac_v: jonian_g said the ooo database icon was purple in human, and that the ms office one had that color too
<SiDi> so apparently the color of the original icon was changed to match ms office's
<mac_v> oh , that
<mac_v>  :/
<jonian_g> @SiDi: those icons were there since 8.10. Now you noticed it?
<jonian_g> mac_v: I'm trying to finish the icons in preferences and administration
<mac_v> jonian_g: SiDi uses Xubuntu ;)
<mac_v> so he wouldnt have noticed
<SiDi> jonian_g: i dont use openoffice database AT ALL :)
<SiDi> when i need word processing i use latex
<SiDi> when i need databases i use mysql or oracle :P
<jonian_g> also with a quick look at OpenOffice original icons the same colors are used
<SiDi> then who said the original color was silver ? :P
<SiDi> cause i just said crap cause of that person :P
<jonian_g> the original of the database icon
<jonian_g> SiDi: it was not crap. It is a valid objection.
<jonian_g> nice battery Dan
<DanRabbit> ty
<DanRabbit> it needs polish
<DanRabbit> jonian_g: mac_v brought up a good point that it looks too much like Duracell
<jonian_g> yep
<DanRabbit> So, feel free to experiment
<jonian_g> I don't see anything bad in that
<DanRabbit> I don't know. It might be a bad legal move
<jonian_g> my objection is that it looks very realistic, which is not the case with the other icons
<mac_v> yea... it looks more elementary style
<DanRabbit> hmm
<DanRabbit> maybe more saturation?
<mac_v> DanRabbit: wtf ! > Bug 437379
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 437379 in humanity "Ubuntu icon doesnt look good in humanity" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/437379
<DanRabbit> Yea, it's a little thick
<DanRabbit> I can agree with that
<mac_v> there was a bug in human theme saying humanity is better  , do it in humanity style
<DanRabbit> lol
<jonian_g> silly one
<DanRabbit> mac_v, you can't expect people to actually agree or know what they want
<DanRabbit> :D
<kwwii> mac_v: link?
<jonian_g> invalid?
<kwwii> won't fix...it is a design decision
<kwwii> hi, just got back
<DanRabbit> hi kwwii
<kwwii> hi DanRabbit
<mac_v> kwwii: i'm figured it out for the volume and the network applet to not leak the greyscale icons into the apps \o/
<mac_v> i'v*
<kwwii> mac_v, DanRabbit: I do think that the outline of the logo icon is too thick...just a bit, but enough
<DanRabbit> kwwii: do you think anyone would explode if we made it monochrome?
<kwwii> compare that icon to the firefox icon
<kwwii> DanRabbit: well, I would like to see a version like that first
<kwwii> but I am guessing that changing the color is bad
<DanRabbit> It's been something I was thinking on
<mac_v> kwwii: DanRabbit: Bug #411972 human > humanity ;P
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 411972 in hundredpapercuts "Human theme's Ubuntu icon uses older style" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/411972
<DanRabbit> the elementary distributor logo has been monochrome for a while, and it's actually very sexy ;)
<kwwii> the line helps define the icon
<kwwii> so I agree with that, but it needs to be a bit lighter at some places
<kwwii> but anyway
<mac_v> kwwii: when you asked link? was it for the bug or for the latest rev?
<mac_v> humanity*
<kwwii> mac_v: what is the solution for the panel notification area icons?
<kwwii> mac_v: do you have packaged versions in bzr/lp now?
<mac_v> package ... no
<mac_v> but bzr yes
<kwwii> why not just take the packaged version and put it in your bzr?
<kwwii> it would make things much easier
<kwwii> but anyway
<kwwii> I say that a lot these days
<mac_v> kwwii: hehe , i just figured it out... i think the a few color icons need a bit of a tweak
<mac_v>  i think that a few*
<kwwii> mac_v: in which theme?
<mac_v> humanity's
 * DanRabbit ---> work
<kwwii> cool
<DanRabbit> bye
<kwwii> bye
<mac_v> kwwii: the solution was in the end simple! figuring it out was the irritating part :( ... the panel uses icons from a certain size , the smaller sizes are used in the apps
<mac_v> and each icon depends on different size :/
<kwwii> yes, I know ;)
<kwwii> but the panel itself can have a different theme, or?
<mac_v> no need differnt theme , we just make the icons the panel uses in greyscale and let the rest be color
<mac_v> for ubuntu^
<kwwii> mac_v: yes, but the current version is too light for the light panel
<kwwii> and in UNR that won't work either...it has a dark panel
<mac_v> that i have darkened
<kwwii> ok, so how does it work with UNR?
<kwwii> we might try adding a light outside pixel to it
<kwwii> kinda like a glow
<dashua> http://www.ubuntu-pics.de/bild/25779/screenshot_005_x20lS9.png
<kwwii> it would almost unnoticable on a light bg
<mac_v> kwwii: that was how it was first done
 * dashua thanks mac_v for holding onto his package =/
<kwwii> I honestly think that that looks innactive to me but I won't get in anyones way
<mac_v> i agree it can be confusing
<mac_v> kwwii: present color > http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/346/screenshotvg.png
<mac_v> anything darker would become black :/
<dashua> Those old ones are much sharper on a dark panel which is detrimental to the light
<kwwii> mac_v: that looks plenty dark to me
<kwwii> I agree it should not be black
<SiDi_> ohnoez dashua is back in gnome :P
<dashua> Sorry =/
<kwwii> why are there two wireless icons next to another in the drop-down menu?
<dashua> I am t3h traitor
<kwwii> DanRabbit: detrimental to the light? you are a philosopher
<kwwii> erm
<kwwii> dashua, I meant
<kwwii> sorry
<mac_v> kwwii: that was for adhoc symbol... i have changed it to a different icon now :)
<kwwii> cool, don't scare me ;)
<mac_v> i mean adhoc network
<kwwii> "it was a design decision"
<SiDi_> http://www.flickr.com/photos/jozelui/2421646228/in/pool-ubuntu-artwork kwwii this photo is WOW
<kwwii> :p
<SiDi_> what a shame its not CC by sa :P
<kwwii> SiDi_: all of my pics are licensed like that on flickr as well
<kwwii> I don't want companies trolling the good pics to steal it and use it
<SiDi_> dashua: no problem mate :P now you have the mice virus, one day it'll turn you into a little fluffy mouse and your mind will be ours
<dashua> kwwii, Hehe yeah, that did sound philosophical
<SiDi_> mwahaha
<kwwii> and yes, that has happened before
<dashua> SiDi_, I will be back when GNOME pisses me off again
<SiDi_> kwwii: indeed, but thats a shame i cant use it myself because of that :P
<kwwii> if you ask, they will often license them differently
<SiDi_> i guess i should
<kwwii> I get the feeling that my bike accident today left me with a mild concusion...everything is kinda swimming around
<SiDi_> im playing with the idea of contacting some of the ubuntu pool photographs to get a xubuntu wallpapers package.. :P
<SiDi_> did you get in a swimming poll with your bike ? :/
<SiDi_> oh, i read concLusion, sorry ..
<kwwii> no I flipped over my handle-bars and landed directly on my head
<jonian_g> outch^
<kwwii> I was moutain-biking with my son and was just about to go up a very steep hill when my chain broke
<SiDi_> ouch:s
<kwwii> at about 25km/h
<kwwii> I gave it my all ;)
<jonian_g> mac_v: better with the red screwdriver, though my toolbox ruled
<jonian_g> :)
<mac_v> ;)
<sanderqd> hey kwwii (and others responsible), nice job on the karmic artwork refresh!
<jonian_g> thanks (one of the others)
<kwwii> sanderqd: thnx
<mac_v> kwwii: you were saying something about mat's icons for login screen... are they to be added into Humanity?
<kwwii> mac_v: they have to appear in the gdm screen, so I guess so
<kwwii> mac_v: I told him to send them to me but he didn't
<kwwii> so I will figure this out on monday
<mac_v> kwwii: no need , they can be installed into the xsplash folder
<mac_v> that way all themes will use it
<mac_v> or maybe i'm confused ;p
<kwwii> mac_v: perhaps
<kwwii> but I think they need to be in a theme because now it is a normal gnome-session
<kwwii> and we define an icon theme for the user gdm
<mac_v> oh   0.o
<kwwii> icons are used there that are used elsewhere
<mac_v> kwwii: now that we have switched to humanity , where are the notify-osd icons?
<troy_s> kwwii: Certainly takes you a mighty long time to reply via email.  Unless of course, you are avoiding the issue... ;)
<kwwii> troy_s: not at all, I just read your email 10min ago
<kwwii> troy_s: hi, btw
<troy_s> kwwii: Just poking.  Greetings back.
<kwwii> troy_s: Just had a busy day (AND it is the weeknd and my wife seems to have figured things out)
<troy_s> kwwii: It's all good.
<jonian_g> mac_v: they are in hicolor
<troy_s> kwwii: Prepping for UDS I assume?
<kwwii> troy_s: late here, I'll respond tomorrow, I promise ;) With vodka bottle in hand, I shall refrain from email :p
<kwwii> troy_s: boah, we have a design sprint the week before as well
<troy_s> kwwii: Vodka works well.  Loosens lips and lets true sentiments fly.
<troy_s> kwwii: Interesting.  How large is the mythical 'design' team at this point?
<kwwii> little sip of gin, makes you wanna sin
<troy_s> kwwii: It's a shame to see so many interface boo-boos regarding composition.
<kwwii> 13 or so
<troy_s> kwwii: Well that's positive.  Is Iain part of that team now?
<kwwii> yeah, he is the project manager keeping the deadlines in line
<troy_s> kwwii: Is there a head of aesthetics / art / design or did you get bumped into that role?
<MDC1> may i suggest something like this for the nm connected icon instead of the one we have now? http://imagebin.ca/view/506k-ma.html
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-09-27
<kwwii> troy_s: there are several, one for interactions and one for visual design...but there is also one for branding/marketing, etc
<mac_v> MDC1: the problem with that is , it wont use the space provided :(
<jonian_g> MCD1: not bad
<kwwii> anyway...time for sleep
<kwwii> see you tomorrow
<troy_s> kwwii: SIL licenses work for typefaces in Debian correct? (Regarding the 2nd and less inflammatory email I shipped you ;) )
<troy_s> kwwii: G'nite.
<kwwii> troy_s: that font *is* sweet
<MDC1> mac_v, a large plug then?
<MDC1> larger*
<kwwii> not sure about debian and licensing
<kwwii> but I really liked that font
<mac_v> MDC1: that would look ugly :p
<troy_s> kwwii: The others are darn impressive as well - although some are only provided in a proprietary application format.
<troy_s> kwwii: The Goudy?
<kwwii> the c is lovely
<kwwii> troy_s: yes
<MDC1> mac_v, the current icon is really strange as the plug doesn't seem to connect because of the space between them..
<kwwii> very nice
<troy_s> kwwii: The Goudy is humanist axis and it _would_ be the best serif on our platform.
<kwwii> the perfect document font
<troy_s> kwwii: Probably missing plenty of i10n bits, but those would follow.
<kwwii> definitely
<troy_s> kwwii: It's actually a pretty slick looking display face too at larger sizes.
<troy_s> kwwii: Especially for a product that likes to speak 'human' a lot.
<troy_s> ;)
<kwwii> troy_s: hehe, I actually thought about setting is as my desktop font when I saw it
<kwwii> it is very classy
<troy_s> kwwii: The two sans are quite nice - but the first is again - stuck in FontLab I believe.
<troy_s> kwwii: Bingo.
<troy_s> kwwii: Humanist Serifs are rather close to the pinnacle of elegance I find.  Probably a hand-me-down from the axis of script.
<kwwii> I wish we could just pay for a decent font
<troy_s> kwwii: Well that one is SIL licensed.  I've been working Jos for god knows how long
<kwwii> yeah
<troy_s> kwwii: I believe he is _darn_ close to cracking, but I suspect Ubuntu might have more clout.
<troy_s> kwwii: Ubuntu proper as a franchise that is.
<troy_s> kwwii: All of his work is simply incredible.
<kwwii> maybe one day ubuntu will be important enough to capture an artists eye ;)
<kwwii> any kind of artist :p
<kwwii> for now, I am heading to bed...my head is thumping
<troy_s> kwwii: Aight.  Morrow.
<MDC1> mac_v, http://imagebin.ca/view/8YfpKW6I.html like this.. (but i'm no artist so it looks like shit, but i think you get the point :) )
<kwwii> me != experienced mountain biker
<kwwii> night all
<MDC1> night
<mac_v> MDC1: already there are people complaining that icons are not uniform! > http://launchpadlibrarian.net/32494565/illustration.jpg
 * SiDi_ wonders what font this was about
<SiDi_> night kww
<SiDi_> kwwii:
<mac_v> MDC1: so doing it horizontal will make it worse :(
<troy_s> SiDi_: It's a face actually, but only a font at this point.
<troy_s> SiDi_: Goudy.
<troy_s> http://www.theleagueofmoveabletype.com/
<mac_v> MDC1: if it was an individual icon its not a problem... but when its in a menu , we need to make icons uniform... hence i did it diagonally
<troy_s> SiDi_: In particular - http://www.theleagueofmoveabletype.com/fonts/6-sorts-mill-goudy
<troy_s> SiDi_: A very beautiful and elegant humanist axis serif.
<SiDi_> i see
<SiDi_> its quite nice indeed
<SiDi_> i personally fell in love with droid ttf ! :P
<troy_s> SiDi_: Droid is the most clunky and absolutely rubbishy looking typeface selection for a desktop font that I could think of, but alas, that is another story.
<troy_s> SiDi_: It is extremely vertical and stiflingly rigid.  That has everything to do with destination context of course, however.
<MDC1> mac_v, i see. thanks for explaining :-)
<SiDi_> troy_s: i use it because the screen is tiny :)
<SiDi_> i have no problems reading that font, and i gain quite a lot of space with it
<troy_s> SiDi_: At which point, it works extremely well.  I have seen it on several handsets.  That said, I suspect the density of displays will allow for superior faces.
<troy_s> SiDi_: It's sad that display density cripples serif work.  Serifs are designed for reading consumption.
<SiDi_> i never got used to them in a screen
<SiDi_> but yeah, for reading documents its more agreable
<troy_s> SiDi_: For a western LTR culture (and probably RTL) most certainly.  Probably not the case for up to down text etc.
<d6g> mac_v: the adhoc icon is fixed. btw the new "key" icon overlay looks a bit blurred for me, not as sharp as the "lock"
<d6g> and not sure if "key" is a good metaphor
<yharrow> hey, does anyone know if there will be an update to the last uploaded theme to Karmic Koala ( the theme reminiscent of Breezy) ?
<darkmatter> ubuntu should switch to lua and mono as primary developmental languages and kill the filth python crap xD
<jonian_g> so mono is less crap than python?
<darkmatter> mono is more fun. plus it'll make the paranoid-delusional quake in their booties :P
<jonian_g> if I want fun I'll go to a luna park
<darkmatter> but lua... ahhh... my sweet sweet lightning fast lover *has geek sex with his source code*
<mac_v> d6g|away: lol... the lock was blurry too , ;)  i could notice it. anyways, the app should mention what sizes they will use in the display... *sigh* ... adding an icon to fix the blurriness
<FLOZz> Hello all  _o/
<FLOZz_> Hello all  _o/
<knome> kwwii!
<FLOZz> Hello all  _o/
<kwwii> knome: hey
<SiDi> knome's sleeping
<SiDi> :P
<kwwii> I'Ve got to finish cooking my beef roast...be back after lunch (or maybe after formula1)
<knome> hah
<knome> SiDi, not really ;P
<SiDi> meh
<SiDi> someone pinged me in #xubuntu-devel
<knome> :D
 * ckontros waves
<knome> hello
<knome> oh, that was an hour ago... oops
<tgpraveen> mac_v: in totem with humanity, it looks really good
<tgpraveen> but in fullscree.
<tgpraveen> in the bar which appears at the bottom with all the controls the volume one is of very small size
<tgpraveen> should I bug this
<zniavre> i still insist on HumanLogin looks much better (at least modern) with clearlooks engine than industrial >http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/4791/capture1s.png
<zniavre> (i can't take screenshot of gdm "in action" sorry)
<ckontros> zniavre: As much as I dig the panel app that grabs the menu, I constantly wrestle with the fact that we seem to just copy Apple more often than I like. :(
<ckontros> Just wish we could hit upon a UI a little more unique to GNOME.
<ckontros> (or KDE)
<zniavre> globalmenu is only for me i can take same screenshot without
<ckontros> And the dock.launcher
<ckontros> *dock/launcher
<zniavre> :o(
<zniavre> it's personnal taste  but the gtkrc still "regular" one and universal
<ckontros> Sure. I'm just generally commenting on UI/layout.
<zniavre> note for later > only submit window screenshot
<zniavre> :o)
 * ckontros has about the same one here. I think the appeal of a dock is it's interactivity.
<ckontros> zniavre: :P
 * ckontros 's desktop: http://i34.tinypic.com/dz74ea.jpg
<ckontros> (resized from 1920x1200)
<zniavre> o but you get globalmenu and dock also ?!!
<ckontros> Yes. I said that already.
<ckontros> You told me about globalmenu remember? :)
<zniavre> sorry i misunderstand what "dig" means (harraps helped me)
<ckontros> dig=like, enjoy
<ckontros> Guess that was lost in translation.
<thorwil> ckontros: wow does that breathe folder ever jump out
<ckontros> thorwil: Yeah. I scaled it to rememnd me I have work to do. :)
<ckontros> *remind
<thorwil> so on friday, newz told at one point there would be a decision regarding the countdown banner in half an hour ...
<thorwil> hi troy_s
<troy_s> Greetings thorwil.
 * ckontros waves as well
<troy_s> Greetings ckontros.
<thorwil> troy_s: ckontros used to be kown as _MMA_, but he's _way_ more serious now! ;)
<troy_s> thorwil: Well that's a step in the positive direction for ckontros.  _MMA_ was a jerk.
<thorwil> lol
 * ckontros buttons his coller up all the way.
<ckontros> *collar
<troy_s> Chatty as always in here eh ckontros?
<ckontros> troy_s: Well, I'm in here in case. But My focus need to be elsewhere. ;)
 * thorwil doesn't even have a focus, currently
<troy_s> thorwil: Atta' boy.  How's the new gig going?
<thorwil> troy_s: my invoice went into junk ... hoping for payment early upcoming week. another new client suddenly decided that i'm too expensive and that he actually needs to _start_ his business first :)
<thorwil> i love it!
<troy_s> thorwil: Woop.  Sounds terrific.
<thorwil> upcoming week i have to disassemble a kitchen with my brother. first time ever. that will be fun
<troy_s> thorwil: So you bummed about the gig?
 * tgpraveen wonders if he is in the wrong channel for ubuntu artwork :)
<thorwil> troy_s: no, it went quite well for having to adapt to a chaotic just-in-time and just-whats-needed to have something to show at all approach of my client
<ckontros> tgpraveen: Depends. We're mostly a bunch of slack-asses that don't work on anything that actually goes /in/ Ubuntu. Just around it. :P And some folks who have nothing better to do on a Sunday. :)
<thorwil> troy_s: but it all stands or falls with my payment. on one side, i trust those guys, on the other ... i belive it when i see it :)
<tgpraveen> ckontros: hehe it seemed as much
<tgpraveen> guess then i am in the right place
<tgpraveen> as i too would fall into that category
<thorwil> ckontros: we work on stuff that goes around ubuntu? :)
<ckontros> thorwil: I like to think of us as a fringe group of, um, "artists". Not quite working directly on the product we all love. We're like a company that makes after-market parts for cars. :)
<thorwil> troy_s: would be good to have another client soon now, but i could fill weeks with things i want to do. a new contender for my time and attention would be de-uglyfying lmms
<thorwil> http://lmms.sourceforge.net/screenshots.php
<troy_s> thorwil: Uggh.  Toolbars and colourful interfaces - the bane of my existence.
<thorwil> troy_s: seeing how i pretty much wasted my effort on the backgrounds wiki section, i guess i should invest more time elsewhere ...
<troy_s> thorwil: I never knew.
<ckontros> thorwil: Speaking of audio apps, anything else going on w/Ardour UI-wise?
<thorwil> troy_s: i managed to get almost all contributors to submit their walppaers with a thumbnail of a fixed width, with the exact same wiki markup and explicit licensing. now it seems everything there was ignored to go all flickr instead
<troy_s> ckontros: It would be nice to see a vast push in Free Software toward nodal based applications.  The layers crap is completely nothing compared to nodal apps.  Audio, imaging, etc., would all be serious gain.
<thorwil> ckontros: Paul is busy with getting midi editing to work
<ckontros> thorwil: Ahh.. Yeah. I had heard but not following too closely.
<thorwil> ckontros: he has help from a guy who does orchestral stuff and is thus a heavy-duty midi user
<troy_s> ckontros: It would be especially cool if there were a way to connect actual _windows_ via nodal styled interfaces.  Run an output from an imaging app into an input in another application.
<ckontros> thorwil: Oh nice. I'll have to drop him a msg.
<ckontros> troy_s: Sounds slick. :)
<thorwil> ckontros: so far ardour-3.0 is considered to be not ready for testing from anyone not hanging in the channel and dealing with the inncer circle directly
<troy_s> ckontros: So you settled back into home?
<ckontros> troy_s: Si SeÃ±or
<thorwil> troy_s: i'm a huge fan of blender noodles (allthough i never did much with them) and the modular audio environment ingen (that has seen many refactorings and never a state where all basics worked, though)
<ckontros> troy_s: That's why I'm only trying to steal a few mins here and there to chat. I'm takin' care of things around the house. Gettin' ready for the new job and spending time with the fam.
<troy_s> thorwil: It's a defacto standard in many industry grade apps.
<thorwil> ckontros: what's the new job about?
<troy_s> thorwil: What would be _very_ cool is to be able to actually create app window nodes - imagine piping output from Inkscape directly into another app.  Rather interesting possibilities.
<thorwil> troy_s: funny how gimp will have the infrastructure, but is not meant to expose nodes as such, for all i know
<ckontros> thorwil: Same old stuff. Sheet metal fabrication. (making signs) Cool shop. Lots of tools to make anything in my head. I can machine just about anything. ;)
<troy_s> thorwil: Yes... the typical lame GIMP development pattern. Rather like FINALLY getting to 16bpc in 2013 and everyone will have clearly been shown why 16bpc is purely limiting.
<troy_s> thorwil: I ranted about the amateuritus crap that goes on with our applications.  It is infuriating.
<thorwil> ckontros: sheet metal in you hands and heavy metal in your ears, eh?
<ckontros> thorwil: \m/
<troy_s> thorwil: There should be _zero_ bit depth caps.  Hell... I'll be shocked if GIMP ever gets anything over 8bpc before the turn of the decade.
<thorwil> troy_s: it's a drastic example of the "proper" solution being at the doorstep, nobody wanting to do a "hack" to have the functionality now
<troy_s> thorwil: At this point though, just give the ability to process.  Interface woes are another matter.  GIMP has been stuck in the 90s for technological ability for god knows too long.  Compare with Blender - an extremely powerful application that has developers that listen _and_ create work in a production environment to _test_ the bloody app.
<thorwil> troy_s: we need more Tons
<thorwil> bbiab
<troy_s> thorwil: Vicious cycle:
<troy_s> thorwil: We have tools that are lacking production environment ability so they never get used in a production environment and as such, they are lacking production environment ability.
<troy_s> thorwil: More projects need to adopt the 'open movie' approach and generate a body of work that drives development and taxes the myopic vision that is often placed on the application.
<troy_s> thorwil: It would greatly speed up the weak areas.  Group source a commissioned work from an esteemed artist such as Craig Mullins - someone the developers might have a hope of listening to - and get his workflow / comments / needs actually coded into the application.
<SiDi> did anyone succeed so far in theming gdm ?
<thorwil> troy_s: yeah. a bit of that is happening with ardour these days.
 * thorwil remembers the time when he used gentoo and used to log in on the cli to only then have X started
<zniavre> SiDi,  yes
<SiDi> zniavre: how ? :P
<zniavre> at least i changed HumanLogin fron industrial to clearlooks and make different entry colors
<zniavre> gedit /usr/share/gconf/defaults/16_ubuntu-artwork     > then modify gtk theme
<zniavre> then > sudo update-gconf-defaults
<zniavre> i see this in #ubuntu+1 it's seems to work too but never tried
<SiDi> hm
<SiDi> ok thanks gonna look at this
<SiDi> zniavre: can you please send me your /usr/share/gconf/defaults/ artwork files ?
<zniavre> 2 sec .
<SiDi> ty
<thorwil> good night!
<zniavre> http://paste.ubuntu-fr-secours.org/src-38419
<zniavre> sorry i pasted it in other room
<SiDi> thanks
<zniavre> SiDi,  it's not the default one
<SiDi> i just wanted to see the gconf keys
<kwwii> re
<FLOZz> Hello all  _o/
<kwwii> zniavre: what did you work on gdm-wise?
<kwwii> just reading back a bit
<zniavre> changed industrial engine to clearlooks i find it more "modern" (for menu and buttons / roundness*)
<zniavre> im installing virtualbox trying to make a screenshot
<kwwii> zniavre: killer, i would love to see it...I am going to upload changes to the packages tomorrow
<kwwii> zniavre: so if you can get something done by then there is a good chance it could make it into the the release
<zniavre> i hope im not to presumptuous to submit this one (only personal felling) but im trying anyway : http://dl.free.fr/oP9xhEgPu    here gtkrc HumanLoginCL
<zniavre> and it will take sometimes before karmic installing on vbox sorry
<kwwii> zniavre: lol, I *love* that you offer your ideas and go so far to help ubuntu
<kwwii> just downloaded it, let me test it
<zniavre> :o)  thank you
<zniavre> this one follows original color theme , mine a bit clearest #363636 instead of #000000 which is not good on my crappy crt
<kwwii> zniavre: the problem with clearlooks (and murrine) is that they do not have a lighter outline around the widgets, like industral can
<kwwii> that was essentially why I made it with industrial
<zniavre> ho ok
<zniavre> can we mix the engine inside the gtkrc ?
<kwwii> yes, but that takes longer to start, so no :p
<ckontros> +1 if the engines are already shipped.
<zniavre> ho ok
<kwwii> ckontros: industrial comes with gnome
<kwwii> ckontros: so it is already shipped
<ckontros> What .0005 milliseconds longer?
<ckontros> So is Murrine/Clearlooks.
<ckontros> (w/Ubuntu)
<kwwii> it also makes bug fixing a pain
<zniavre> Murrine does not want to work here i do not know why
<ckontros> kwwii: meh.
<kwwii> I worked with the guy who made industrial, you should understand how it was made
<kwwii> it was designed to be minimalistic and simple
<ckontros> My "meh" was more a "In the end, I don't care to push the subject because I really have no strong feelings about it." :)
<zniavre> it is for sure   ^^
<kwwii> he was a big fan of the intrepid wallpaper
<kwwii> but now I sound like richard nixon talking about the old days
<ckontros> kwwii: hahaha. Who did the new default?
<kwwii> default?
<kwwii> ahh...wallpaper
<ckontros> wallpaper
<kwwii> it was made by a photographer
<kwwii> we did a photo shoot for the new CD covers
<kwwii> and this photo was among them
<kwwii> very nice work
<ckontros> And man. There Usplash->GDM->Xsplash->Desktop transition is, um, a bit much.
<kwwii> we hired marcus haslam to work on branding stuff, marketing material, etc...he is amazing
<ckontros> It makes 4 transitions using 2 images.
<kwwii> at least it all has the same bg :p
 * ckontros shrugs.
<kwwii> anyway...
<ckontros> I still have no clue what the guys did w/Studio. I'm scared to look.
<zniavre> kwwii,  in fact the industrial engine use it's to create the small outside clear line around the loginwindow right ?
<kwwii> we hired marcus haslam to work on branding stuff, marketing material, etc...he is amazing
<MadsRH> kwwii -> In the forum there seems to be a lot of "it's too bright" compared to the splash background. I mean they both look really good, but it's kind of a valid point, the contrast is kind of huge.
<kwwii> lol
<kwwii> nice ken
<kwwii> zniavre: among other things, yes
<kwwii> the buttons are also important
<kwwii> and the outside border of the tab windows, list/tree views
<kwwii> MadsRH: good input, what exactly does that mean
<kwwii> ?
<kwwii> MadsRH: that the white is too bright on the gdm screen?
<ckontros> MadsRH: I'm normally a fan of contrast, but I think I would agree that's kinda what bugs me. The sharp contrast between transitions.
<kwwii> I haven't checked the forums since friday
<MadsRH> ckontros -> spot on ;-)
<kwwii> or are you saying things should fade to black everytime the pieces switch?
<FLOZz> bye !
<FLOZz> good night
<MadsRH> exactly, the contrast you experience when going from a very dark (but beautiful may I add) background to the new yellow/orange wallpaper
<kwwii> night FLOZz
<kwwii> MadsRH: the background in gdm is not set yet?
<kwwii> or do you mean the final switch between xsplash and desktop?
<kwwii> whatever it is, that you exactly mean, should be filed as a bug
<kwwii> :p
<ckontros> kwwii: The Usplash->GDM->Xsplash->Desktop transition.
<ckontros> Dark, light, dark, light
<kwwii> ckontros: there should not be a transition between usplash and gdm
<kwwii> it should be xsplash-gdm-xplash-desktop
<kwwii> usplash is only used if there is an fsck error, et
<kwwii> c
<ckontros> Than that's it then.
<kwwii> and anyway, it uses the same bg as the xsplash
<kwwii> with the same logo, etc
<ckontros> The 2nd xplash feels visually redundant.
<kwwii> the fact that so much text is still shown and that we still haven't switched to grub2 is disturbing
<kwwii> ckontros: yeah, I agree
<kwwii> file a bug
<ckontros> What is it hiding? Why do we have it now where we didn't before?
<kwwii> I am sure that there already is one
<kwwii> add your voice
<ckontros> Agreed
 * ckontros takes a peek.
<mac_v> kwwii: i thought we are using grub2
<kwwii> so far as I can tell from the latest stuff, we are still on 1.97~whatever
<mac_v> kwwii: thats grub2 ;)
<mac_v> they have dumb numbering thats all
<kwwii> no, the resolution and stuff is different
<kwwii> I disagree
<mac_v> grub was 0.96
<kwwii> it is missing something
<kwwii> it looks different than when I installed grub2
<mac_v> hrmm
<mac_v> !grub2
<ubottu> GRUB2 is the default Ubuntu boot manager in Karmic. For more information on GRUB2 please refer to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Grub2
<kwwii> it might have a lot of the code in common but I think it is different
<kwwii> maybe I am wrong
<kwwii> I'd have to talk to the platform team
<mac_v> kwwii: do you want the panel logo also to be greyscale?
<mac_v> distributor logo*
<kwwii> no, I do not think it will work well, but if you think so, suggest something ;)
<mac_v> hehe.. i dont want to do it either
<mac_v> i thought you said something of the sort yesterday
<mac_v> kwwii: BTW ,the default wallpaper is really nice , very cheerful feel :)
<kwwii> mac_v: thanks, I will pass it on.
<mac_v> d6g: hei , does the bluetooth icon work?
<d6g> mac_v: no, updated to r338, and it is still the blue one
<mac_v> d6g: hm... could you change to gnome theme and check what color the icon is
<d6g> the gnome icon theme uses the blue one, tango-ish
<d6g> and the one humanity is using looks slightly different
<mac_v> argh! my hicolor is having black icons
<mac_v> d6g: screenshot pls
<d6g> current humanity: http://launchpadlibrarian.net/32533516/screenshot1.png
<mac_v> d6g: awesome ... i'll fix it in a min :)
<jonian_g> mac_v: hi. Why that happens with the bluetooth icon?
<mac_v> jonian_g: switching ;)
<mac_v> jonian_g: my hicolor folder got deleted recently and i'm not able to check icons correctly :/
<d6g> mac_v: i think what currently used is apps/24/bluetooth.svg
<mac_v> d6g: could you pull from the rev again and see if that solves the panel icon
<d6g> ok
<mac_v> d6g: yeah ;) ... my hicolor has black bluetooth icons and it mislead me :(
<jonian_g> d6g: if we change the 24px icon, then it is going to change in the menu entry too
<mac_v> d6g: yeah also check the menu entry
<d6g> mac_v: the menu entry now is monochrom too :(
<mac_v> hrm.... then its only possible to do a bluetooth icon in black
<mac_v> d6g: did you connect to any device?
<mac_v> what icon does it display then
<d6g> not really, let me try
<d6g> i've connected to my cell phone and i don't see any changes on the bluetooth icon
<ckontros> mac_v: Just pokin' ya 'bout that email.
<mac_v> ckontros: oh.. you wanted it immediately... what am i supposed to explain again? the only main issue is the network manager.. and asac still hasnt confirmed the final label names... he said he would remind me once he has discussed upstream
<d6g> mac_v: i noticed nautilus' icon is changed, but when copying files etc, it looks confusing on the system tray: http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/7758/screenshot2io.png
<mac_v> d6g: there is already a bug about that :) .. but for this cycle we are only sticking to greyscale system icons...
<mac_v> for those stuff to work , it would mess up the apps :(
<d6g> and why is nautilus a folder icon with a mouse cursor?
<d6g> ok
<mac_v> d6g: i didnt do all the icons ;)
<jonian_g> that icon is done by DanRabbit
<jonian_g> you can file abug about it if you want
<mac_v> but i think it can mean the pointer pointing over the folder and operating ;)
<mac_v> d6g: i'v pushed another version , this is the best we can do for now :(
<mac_v> without doing anything to the code...
<mac_v> I dont think if this icon shows up in the menu it would be too grave
<jonian_g> a blacktooth :)
<mac_v> ;p
<d6g> mac_v: can you make the size a bit smaller? it is the biggest guy in the system tray now :)
<mac_v> d6g: oh! screenshot pls :) ..
<mac_v> but if we make it smaller it will be small in the menu too :(
<d6g> http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/170/screenshot1cy.png
<d6g> yeah, but the tango one looks fine
<d6g> is the current one bigger than the tango/hicolor version?
<jonian_g> yep
<jonian_g> I made it bigger to fit the rest of the icons
<d6g> ... the bluetooth applet really should use an icon from status folder for the system tray
<mac_v> d6g: could you add the bluetooth to the also affects for that bug?
<d6g> sure, is the pakcage name "bluetooth"?
<mac_v> d6g: i think so... i wasnt sure thats why i told you to do it ;p
<d6g> not sure which one: bluez, bluez-gnome or gnome-bluetooth
<ckontros> mac_v: I just wanted some notes on any new icon names to support. Panel and whatnot.
<d6g> i will go for gnome-bluetooth
<mac_v> ckontros: the new names will be know only after asac clears things up... but he said expect more icons ;) especially for wwan
<mac_v> nothing else is new
<mac_v> known*
<ckontros> mac_v: I'll still take anything tentative and details on where they're used. (if there's anything) Seems like there's a bunch going on outside of FreeDesktop. (which I still have to look over latest changes)
<mac_v> oh... ok
<ckontros> mac_v: I wanna plan out Breathe's next steps after the mime work Daniel and Sebastian are doin'.
<mac_v> ckontros: hehe ...well... we have been planning for quite a long time ;p
<mac_v> writing the mail now :)
<ckontros> mac_v: "we"?
<mac_v> ckontros: as in you ;p
<ckontros> mac_v: Ahh... No. It might appear that way but lately I've taken chat off-list since people aren't replying.
<ckontros> So if you're subscribed to the branch changes you'll see what's going on.
<mac_v> ckontros: well you dont reply to mails even ... so i thought you were *very* busy
<mac_v> ;)
<mac_v> yeah i get the branch changes
<ckontros> If it was one right to me, I mighta missed it. But we pushed a major color revision with no outside feedback. So, we've been talkin' off-list since.
<ckontros> mac_v: I'll make the mime chat public soon. Currently, I'm dealing with movin' back home after 6months away and starting a new job.
<d6g> mac_v: i think maybe not so urgent, but there should be a monochrome icon for input method -- a common icon staying in the tray for CJK users
<mac_v> d6g: that would be for lucid ;)
<d6g> ya, and the current version of ibus uses its own icon for that, you can actually do nothing
<d6g> but the ppa version seems uses an icon from status/
<mac_v> ckontros: these new changes will land in time for Karmic, right?
<MadsRH> knome -> Ping!
<ckontros> mac_v: I hadden't planned on it. I'd have to get an exception. (i think)
<ckontros> mac_v: Plan is/was to keep the .50 release in Karmic and anyone who wants to stay current can use the PPA.
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-09-27
<thorwil> doctormo: got any other "Community Feedback", aside of the one reply on the list?
<doctormo> thorwil: 1 more from the list and 1 on dA, not thrilling response I must say.
<thorwil> not a thrilling response -- there's a pattern
<doctormo> thorwil: But at least there are some helpful pointers to how we can improve connectiveness in the community.
<doctormo> In the report
<Nulo_Px> hi, does anyone know anything for real, about the new highly expected font?
<Nulo_Px> (the topic was set on July)
<vish> Nulo_Px: Read all about it at Â» bug 629622 ;)
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 629622 in ubuntu (and 2 other projects) "MIR+FFE: Inclusion of Ubuntu Font Family ~0.70 in Maverick (10.10) (affects: 10) (heat: 96)" [Wishlist,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/629622
<doctormo> Nulo_Px: It's called 'Ubuntu' was commissioned by Canonical and made by a professional font forge. It's an open use license and full foss compatible.
<Nulo_Px> tks
<Nulo_Px> this new font is fantastic, the first time I find a font really beautiful and easy to read
 * vish  spies someone named t-w- subscribed to the wiki pages again! ;p
<vish> gah! i really need to check if people are around :(
<vish>  * vish  spies someone named t-w- subscribed to the wiki pages again! ;p
<thorwil> lol
<thorwil> vish: and here i refrained from making a remark regarding you remembering the link of that restored page, to not reveal this :)
<thorwil> spreadubuntu will see a facelift and i have been asked if i would like to help with the logo design
<vish> thorwil: yea, finally thought i should lookup that page..  ;)
<vish> thorwil: wasnt tough to revert.. thanks for the tip :)
<vish> well, it actually turned out that i was pretty smart back then when i deleted the main page!  ;p
<thorwil> wonder if the spreadubuntu/art.ubuntu-owl.org split makes sense on a technical level
<thorwil> vish: how so?
<vish> the page i was actually looking for was /not/ deleted
<vish> thorwil: i thought i deleted > https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/HumanityIcons/Guidelines  , but i think i knew i might need it at some point ;)
<vish> thorwil: well, having spreadubuntu as a part of the owl site would be much better..
<vish> spread ubuntu doesnt even have a decent enough link to atleast look official!
<thorwil> vish: seems they had some plan involving some action from canonical. i guess about an ubuntu subdomain. obviously didn't happen
<vish> thorwil: yeah, i'v been asking around for an art.ubuntu.com link as well.. if there is a need for it ;)
<vish> thorwil: instead of having the info on the wiki , the art.ubuntu.com site can be a hug for info and a collection of blogs from people contributing to artwork
<vish> hub even!
<thorwil> vish: if you blog, it could syndicate ... 4 people!!!
<vish>  4 wow!
<vish> thorwil: well , planet now aggregates blogs from Ubuntu members , but art.ubuntu.com can be just for people who have done some artwork for Ubuntu at some point..
<vish> i thing it would be an encouragement , sorta
<vish> qa.ubuntu.com does not mandate being an Ubuntu member
<vish> but very few non-ubuntu members have started blogging there..
<vish> but they can..
<thorwil> good evening jpgnizak
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-09-28
<thorwil> good morning!
<thorwil> http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/osrc/article.php/3904526/Ubuntu-Canonical-Wallow-in-Muddy-Waters-with-Contributors-Agreements.htm
<zniavre> good afternoon
<zniavre> i understound that the cursor must hide after a short laps of time. is that real or not ?
<zniavre> (if no activity inside the desktop)*
<thorwil> zniavre: must? can
<zniavre> thorwil, sorry for my bad english
<zniavre> i do not know the good word for that in fact, but the idea was like OSX when there is no activity the cursor hide from desktop , we should move the mouse or hit the keyboard to get the cursor again
<zniavre> is it understandable ?
<thorwil> zniavre: yes. i vaguely recall that it has been brought up on the ayatana list
<thorwil> and was seen to be a good idea
<thorwil> zniavre: don't say sorry for your english, just throw more words at the problem. things tend to become clearer if you don't try to keep it short
<zniavre> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1527598
<thorwil> http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2010/06/auto-hide-mouse-pointer-in-ubuntu-when-idle/
<zniavre> thorwil,  ok i will try later but still dificult for me to write (speak) english for "technical" stuff
<thorwil> zniavre: i know how it feels when it comes to speaking english
 * thorwil -> coffee
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-09-29
<thorwil> http://identitydesigned.com/new-prevention-technologies/
<thorwil> vish: http://www.projblog.com/?p=1803
<vish> thorwil: oh nice!
<vish> thorwil: i think john is a bit disconnected from us.. what do you think? it seems his only connection is via ML..
<thorwil> vish: yes, he is
<thorwil> well, it shouldn't be necessary to be on irc. it can become so damn costly on time/attention
<thorwil> vish: how do you think about never having a https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Natty ?
<vish> thorwil: +1 ;)
<thorwil> vish: how to handle themes, then?
<vish> thorwil: we can just have them in "Incoming" no need a natty  as of now â¦ but we could look at it later
<thorwil> vish: what i have in mind is reworking things a bit, to use our wiki front page for to-the-point info, with pointer to where stuff is supposed to go (flickr, art-owl, spreadubuntu)
<vish> thorwil: cool! we *need* to re-work the wiki
<thorwil> i guess a page for a (community) themes package wouldn't hurt, though the general-incoming vs specific-incoming madness shouldn't be repeated. so the one themes page should always be current
<thorwil> vish: for the mailing list, we have to consider a "this is for people who work on art with and/or for *buntu" take as opposed to a standing team list
<vish> thorwil: hmm, what is a "standing team list"?
<thorwil> vish: the presumption that there is or will be a continuous team effort
<vish> heh ;)
<thorwil> http://shimmerproject.org/2010/09/bluebird-default-theme-xubuntu-1010/
<uni4dfx> anyone here familiar with the Radiance theme?
<uni4dfx> i've noticed the close window button does not change to grey when clicked
<uni4dfx> but the rest of the buttons do
<uni4dfx> it seems to be missing the colorize="shade/gtk:bg[SELECTED]/.7"/ argument in the definition
<uni4dfx> actually no
<uni4dfx> line 364 needs to have alpha=".2"
<uni4dfx> instead of alpha=".9"
<uni4dfx> it's a 1 character easy fix, why won't anyone do anything about it?
<darkmatter> you assume the pressed state is meant to be greyish
<uni4dfx> darkmatter yes, because it makes sense
<uni4dfx> the alpha .9 is not even noticeable, so it feels like you aren't clicking the button
<uni4dfx> it should be .2 like the other two buttons
<darkmatter> lets see. one redish orange and two greyish sand buttons. greyish sand still greyish sand on highlight (but lighter), pressed state still greyish sand but concave. redish orange close button, redish orange on highlight, makes total sense for it to be redish orange and concave when pressed. not saying I particularly love the new theme, but at least the colour usage is consistent
<uni4dfx> it's ugly and inconsistent
<uni4dfx> two buttons have the click effect
<uni4dfx> the 3rd does not
<uni4dfx> the icon is identical to the normal focused state
<uni4dfx> so when you click it, it jumps back to normal focused
<uni4dfx> i'm sorry but that does not make sense
<darkmatter> it has a discernible click effect here. and is consistent with the other two (ignoring the skewed highlight on the close), just the colour is different
<uni4dfx> no it does not have a discernible click effect
<uni4dfx> and making an exception for just one button is anything BUT consistent
<uni4dfx> but seriously, why am i wasting my time
<uni4dfx> you guys will never fix anything
<uni4dfx> you never listen to users
<uni4dfx> you make some retarded changes like moving the window buttons and aligning the title to the left which looks absolutely horrific
<uni4dfx> but who cares, you must have your way
<darkmatter> it's not really an exception. it a different _colour_ and the effect is consistent aside from the difference in colour values (at least here it is) a discernible click is still discernible. but if it's that big of a deal, I would suggest you do somethging constructive, like discussing it witth the people that designed it
<uni4dfx> so go ahead, make it ugly
<uni4dfx> in your mind you actually do think it's "consistent" and "pretty"
<darkmatter> going all "woe is me" on the community doesn't help you're cause
<uni4dfx> i am sick of tired of this bullsh*t
<uni4dfx> every time the same story
<uni4dfx> someone finds a bug, and the devs make up stupid excuses not to fix it
<thorwil> uni4dfx: you are not talking with members of the canonical design team here
<uni4dfx> no wonder linux on the desktop isn't going anywhere
<uni4dfx> and it shall clearly remain this way
<thorwil> uni4dfx: if you want to have a chance to do so, try london office hours
<darkmatter> uni4dfx: you realize you're complaining to the art "community" and not the canonical team doing the themes, correct? can we have a little less of the directing blame/hate at the people who didn't do it? thank you
<uni4dfx> fine, but you still support them apparently
<uni4dfx> their stupid ideas more precisely
<uni4dfx> i'm done with this
<uni4dfx> i'm gonna submit a patch to launchpad, but i know nobody will look at it
<uni4dfx> i should stop caring about others, seriously...
<uni4dfx> trying to fix anything in ubuntu is a complete waste of time
<thorwil> sheesh, what a drama queen
<darkmatter> someone woke up soiled this morn'
<darkmatter> that or he's 10-ish ;)
<thorwil> those physics demonstration / playthings where you have a row of pendulums with balls that will pass on an impulse ... do they have a name?
<darkmatter> perpetual motion thingimobies
<darkmatter> bobies*
<darkmatter> there are several different ones. not sure about the individual names of each contraption
<thorwil> http://image.shutterstock.com/display_pic_with_logo/486253/486253,1266402201,8/stock-photo-newtons-pendulum-46864990.jpg
<thorwil> found that with a collection of terms. so "newton's pendulum" it is
<darkmatter> cool
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-09-30
<DanaG> Say, have any of the ubuntu-font developers tested the font on high-dpi displays?
<DanaG> http://picpaste.com/Screenshot-iveefAJG.png
<DanaG> Notice the little "blobs" on the 'c' and the 't'.
<hyperair> i see no blobs.
<DanaG> Zoom all the way in on that pic.
<DanaG> http://picpaste.com/pics/Screenshot-iveefAJG.1285819397.png
<DanaG> Well, not quite a "blob", but it's like there are bits leading up to a curve, but the curve itself is cut off.
<DanaG> And the lowercase 'l' keeps making me think it's underlined, at least in Firefox.
<DanaG> oh, I have no 'l' in that pic.
<DanaG> But if I zoom in, I see it has the same sort of blobby thing -- but in this case, it's immediately adjacent to the hinting on the left part of the curve.
<DanaG> So it looks thick.
<DanaG> Anyway, try setting gnome to, say, 147 DPI, and "slight hinting", as is the default in Maverick, at least.
<thorwil> what's the right term for the space between tiles (ceramic): seams, gaps, grooves, joints, interstices?
<thorwil> doctormo: hi! hmm, the previews have issues: http://art.ubuntu-owl.org/files/thorwil/13
<thorwil> what it should look like: http://www.foopics.com/showfull/cc24616942a90cbccbb685756e56d9a1
<vish> thorwil: i think "gaps" work fine when it is a bigger space, and "grooves" are for the minor spaces it forms
<thorwil> vish: about to reply to "Artwork Team Logo"
 * vish was wondering when the "logo-updater" would speak up!
<vish> :p
<thorwil> vish: my points will be: concentrate on the symbol, don't mess with type. use pen/paper. use an image hoster, preferably foopics.com
<vish> cool!
<vish> why do people prefer foopics.com though?
<thorwil> image hoster means absolute minimal barrier, but no archive
 * vish checks it out, never used it
<thorwil> vish: it's fast and lean
<vish> hmm, seems nearly similar to imagebin.ca  , but need to actually check it out
<thorwil> vish: so, got anything to add?
<vish> thorwil: well, "dont stick to the Ubuntu logo alone"
<thorwil> ok
<vish> we'd have people just blindly modifying the existing logo, and art team does not need to use the logo
<zniavre> the new font is not a bit too small ?
<vish> zniavre: yup
<vish> they seem to know but, not sure why they choose to leave it smaller :s
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-10-01
<thorwil> http://thorwil.wordpress.com/2010/10/01/spreadubuntu-logo/
<zniavre> what  the number9  is for?
<thorwil> zniavre: http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/thumb_188/11906991727iW9pi.jpg
<thorwil> zniavre: the idea behind it is passing on an impulse
<thorwil> might be a bit too far fetched
<thorwil> but i don't want to present just the obvious solutions :)
<thorwil> the new blender movie is out: http://www.sintel.org/
<vish> thorwil: i like 8 the most.. but it could with a few changes, as in a fade out effect
<vish> and a few changes to the logo as well :D
<thorwil> vish: eh, what's to keep then? ;p
<vish> hehe!
<vish> thorwil: do you have the svg?
 * vish would likey to playey!
<thorwil> vish: there's a spreadubuntu_art branch on LP. you should find it on https://code.launchpad.net/~t-w-  but the site doesn't load for me, currently
 * thorwil -> dinner
<thorwil> vish: found it?
<vish> thorwil: yup.. gonna download it in a few
<vish> thorwil: http://www.foopics.com/showfull/0990f45cf5843a7deaacbcbea579a5ce
<vish> just a quick mod.. i dint look into it very carefully yet.. :)
<thorwil> vish: a bit on the busy side. i'd leave the globe out, then. but thanks for the suggestion
<vish> thorwil: yea, the first one maybe less busy, but it seemed to loose the ubuntu-ness..
* You're now known as ubuntulog
<om26er> would anyone be interested in fixing gwibber's icon the right side is a little broken http://imagebin.org/index.php?mode=image&id=116579
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-10-02
<coz_> hey guys   a little problem...can someon upload their .lib/plymouth folder
<coz_> rather   /lib/plymouth  folder
<coz_> sorry wrong channel
<thorwil> http://thorwil.wordpress.com/2010/10/02/spreadubuntu-logo-2/
 * thorwil -> dinner
 * thorwil approves vish's comment
<vish> thorwil: oh i had another idea, but i think i might be having a deja-vu :D
<vish> incase someone wants to see it before thorwil approves the comment  : http://www.foopics.com/showfull/70e4204929c3318eb3e143aafd4cdd9e  :D
<vish> i'm kinda sure its a logo for some other company..
<vish> hmm, not CBS..
<vish> gosh, is there a site which has all the logo.. ?
<vish> atleast the famous ones.. ?
<thorwil> vish: could your deja-vu have something to do with http://thorwil.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/full_circle_magazin.png ?
<vish> thorwil: nah, i knew it was closer to that, but the globe with those circles seems familiar from somewhere else â¦
<vish> thorwil: hmm, maybe we could just merge spreadubuntu into artwork team and forget about the logo ;p
<thorwil> vish: i did think about that. ego won't allow that to happen and since spreadubuntu seems to work ...
<vish> oh well.. :)
<thorwil> http://www.gimpusers.com/tutorials/gimp-2-8-new-features
<thorwil> seems like i hit a kind of hot spot, comments are pouring in in quick succession
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-10-03
<kmrs75> morning all anyone one around - i have a question -- linux has live CDs - i need a windows live cd has anyone made one? i see there is a few different builders just wondering what one is good ? this is one i am looking at http://www.nu2.nu/pebuilder/
<doctormo> kmrs75: What has windows live cds got to do with Ubuntu artwork?
<thorwil> vish: http://blog.lydiapintscher.de/2010/10/03/designed-not-to-scale/
<vish> thorwil: who is lydia?  â¦
 * vish searches
#ubuntu-artwork 2011-09-28
<Lirodon> Hello
#ubuntu-artwork 2011-09-29
<sadin> hi everyone i have to go in about 30min but id like to be a part of the artwork team
<sadin> if people are alowed to join
#ubuntu-artwork 2011-10-01
<Viper550> DanRabbit, hello
<DanRabbit> Viper550: hi
<Viper550> shame this channel is barely active
<Viper550> so I made a new specification for redoing GRUB
#ubuntu-artwork 2011-10-02
<HyperHoax> Hi!
#ubuntu-artwork 2012-09-29
<Guest19498> Hi
<Guest19498> Anyone mase any good artwork/
<Guest19498> ?????
#ubuntu-artwork 2014-09-27
<diatomo> hey
<diatomo> anyone active here?
