#ubuntu-meeting 2004-11-15
<sparkes_x> won't be here for start of doc meeting
<sparkes_x> I am logging
<sparkes_x> afk bbl
<sivang> sparkes_x : why x ? :)
<sparkes> is this better?
<sparkes_x> lot's of lag on my other client this direct one seems best today
<sparkes_x> bbl really late now ;-)
<sivang> how late is it for you?
<sparkes_x> it's almost midday ;-) but I have to be elsewhere for the next hour or so
<sivang> darn.
<sivang> had to crash x,
<sivang> tried to use nvtv to attend meeting through TV
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:sivang] : Documentation Team Meeting, 2004-11-04 13:00UTC
<sivang> does anybody knows of other people who might be on their way to attend this?
<sivang> hmm, not much of reaction..is there anybody here alive?
<sivang> each person who's alive here, please say "beep" :)
<sivang> ok, let's try and start - see how long can I talk to myself :)
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:sivang] : Documentation Team Meeting, 2004-11-04 13:00UTC, agenda at http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocumentationTeamMeeting
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:sivang] :  Documentation Team Meeting, 2004-11-04 13:00UTC, agenda at http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocumentationTeamMeeting | Seems everybody asleep here or out, I'll be ideling here a bit - msg me (sivang) if you got here and interested in doc issues.
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:sivang] :  Documentation Team Meeting, 2004-11-04 13:00UTC, agenda at http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocumentationTeamMeeting | Seems everybody asleep here or out, I'll be ideling here a bit - msg me (sivang) if you got here and interested in doc issues | as soon as enough people arrive, we'll start
* hornbeck is here
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:sivang] :  Documentation Team Meeting, 2004-11-04 13:00UTC, agenda at http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocumentationTeamMeeting
* asw is here
<sivang> yo asw!
<sivang> :)
<sivang> whassup?
<asw> not too much. I'd like to see if I can make the community meeting in Barcelona.  Anybody else from the Doc team going to be there?
<sivang> I would love to be there, not sure if I could manage to though.
<hornbeck> hey no talking
<asw> I seem to have taken the unlikely role of Free Software zealot in the group but I do find it slightly grating that we don't uniformly follow the Debian/FSF policy of referring to this O/S as either "Ubuntu" full-stop or "Ubuntu GNU/Linux".  I have the irrational desire to go and change every URL that has http://www.ubuntulinux.org to be http://www.ubuntu.com
<hornbeck> :-)
<hornbeck> alot of the url's don't seems to work with just www.ubuntu.com
* asw reads meeting agenda 
<Kamion> ubuntulinux.org was an unfortunate consequence of domain handling politics
<Kamion> apart from the domain, I believe that we consistently refer to ourselves as simply "Ubuntu". If you find exceptions, please correct them.
<asw> hornbeck: can you give an example? Re. broken ubuntu.com links?  There should be a standard procedure for filing doc/wiki bugreports (if there isn't already.) 
<sivang> Kamion : we can make some clarification so to note our gratitude to GNU , what do you think?
<hornbeck> asw: I have not tried them in awhile but for the longest alot of the wiki pages did not work
<asw> Kamion: I had been told the same thing by Mako. I'm perfectly happy with the idea of the "Ubuntu O/S" full stop. 
* sivang hails for Ubuntu GNU/Linux
<Kamion> we standardised on simply "Ubuntu" to avoid the whole debate.
<sivang> ok, that's fine altogether. In docs and referneces we can just say "Ubuntu is a Debian GNU/Linux system, ..." for the record
<Kamion> it's not
<sivang> it's not ?
<Kamion> it's a derivative of Debian GNU/Linux; it's not a Debian GNU/Linux system
<hornbeck> nice beagle pics up the mozilla extentions now
<sivang> oops, yes I menat a based
<asw> in particular, hornbeck's proposed book should either be "Learning the Ubuntu Operating System" or "Learning Ubuntu GNU/Linux" but -not- "Learning Ubuntu Linux" as it is currently called.  I don't want to tell other people what to name their work, so, I find the whole thing very awkward.  Kamion: yes standardize on Ubuntu (operating sytem) full-stop.  Does that sound good to everybody else?
<sivang> asw : it pretty good to me.
<sivang> anyways,
<sivang> shall we start?
<sivang> Has everybody glanced at the agenda?
<hornbeck> is sparkes here?
<sivang> hmm good point
<sivang> let's see
<sivang> if no one objects, I don't mind waiting 10 more minutes before we start..:) so maybe every interested party would get the chance
<George^Deka> hi all
<hornbeck> hello
<asw> hi
<hornbeck> yes sivang I think we need to wait a few for people strolling in
<sivang> yes I see now
<sivang> hey plovs!
<hornbeck> plovs!!!!!!
<hornbeck> you know its amazing how in a chat you act so excited about seeing another grown man
<hornbeck> hmmm
<hornbeck> lets retract a couple of the !!! from that
<sivang> hi lulu, good to see you here :)
<lulu> Hi all! Great to see such a turnout - sorry I'm late - been working with plovs
<plovs_work> hi guys!
<sivang> no it's ok, we're still waiting a bunch for people strolling in...
<hornbeck> I think we are pretty good now
<lulu> sivang: is it a standup meeting? I may be a bit behind on email - do we have an agenda and a time limit?
<sivang> lulu : I've yet to think of a time limit, but the agenda is linked from the topic
<plovs_work> my time-limit 45 minutes, i have a meeting afterwards
<lulu> ahh - there it is - thanks :o)
<hornbeck> I work in about a hour
* asw has to leave in an hour also... 
<plovs_work> who makes a backup of this whole thing and sends it to enrico?
<asw> i can do that gladly. 
<lulu> asw:thank you!
<hornbeck> sivang: want to start
<plovs_work> so, shall we go from top to bottom then on the http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocumentationTeamMeeting ?
<sivang> yo enrico my man!
* enrico managed to participate
<enrico> Hello all!
<sivang> thank you enrico for managin this,
<plovs_work> the man himself!
<lulu> hey enrico!  will you chair the meeting then?
* sivang nods
<sivang> enrico : ?
<enrico> lulu: I can do it, not sure for how much, but I'm confident I can spend at least an hour here
<enrico> I'm loading galeon and getting to the docmeeteing page
<asw> enrico: seems that others have to go in an hour too. hornbeck, plovs... 
<sivang> galeon???
<enrico> sivang: a web browser
<sivang> it's oldie , isn't it?
<enrico> yes
<sivang> that's why the ???
<sivang> :)
<lulu> guys....... :o) shall we begin!?
<enrico> Let's begin!
<sivang> yes!
<enrico> Who's there?
<enrico>  * Enrico
<sivang> * Sivan
<asw> * asw
<hornbeck> * hornbeck
<lulu> * lulu
<ChrisH> * ChrisH
<George^Deka> * George^Deka
<sivang> we have several new people here, I would like them to shortly introduce themselves 
* plovs_work as well
* sivang notes that the meeting seems to go right as planned :)
* enrico looks at the agenda, it's huge!
<enrico> Let's begin from the beginning: state of the documentation team
<enrico> who's who and who does what
<hornbeck> can I start?
* enrico salutes all the new members
<enrico> hornbeck: sure, please
<hornbeck> ok
<hornbeck> I am setting up a svn server for the doc team
<hornbeck> it will be active the beginning of next week and be hosted out of my home
<hornbeck> I have not done much doc work because I have been learning how to set this all up :-)
<hornbeck> I will be giving ssh accounts to certain doc members so if you would like to be on the list please contact me
<asw> hornbeck svn? 
<enrico> asw: subversion
<lulu> hornbeck: Rationale for setup?
<hornbeck> lulu: Ubuntu dev's would not give us room to work on large files
* sparkes_x is back
<hornbeck> so I bought a bigger line into the house and some static ip's
<sparkes_x> how far down the agenda are we?
<sivang> not started
<sivang> :)
<hornbeck> sparkes just started
<enrico> asw: a version control system like CVS and Arch  (if you ignore the authors of cvs, svn and arch telling you that they're all so extremely and fundamentally different ;)
<sivang> you didn't miss a thing
<sivang> :)
<sparkes_x> cool
<asw> um. I, personally, use GNU Arch.  Canonical is also investing heavily in Arch (see Bazar).  
<hornbeck> if we do not like svn, we can try something else
<lulu> hornbeck: i.e. working on books? who did you ask?
* ChrisH loves svn
<enrico> lulu: mdz
<sparkes_x> I love svn but arch sounds, errrm interesting
<hornbeck> lulu: mdz
* plovs_work looks amazed at all the amart people
<lulu> ok - right.....
<sivang> I think we might altogether switch to Bazzar, might also help canonical in testing and patches
<asw> See http://www.canonical.com/projects/ 
<lulu> sivang: that is what I'd like to suggest - Robert Collins would help you hornbeck
<hornbeck> is that what everyone wants?
<hornbeck> to use arch and bazar when it is ready?
<sivang> plus it would make merging the repo into canonical, once this is approved by upranks
<sparkes_x> RCollins help hornbeck with what?
* sparkes_x still catching up
<sparkes_x> sivang, agreed
<lulu> sparkes_x: getting bazaar set up
<hornbeck> lulu: I was with the understanding that arch required more than one webserver
<sparkes_x> lulu, ta, makes sence now
<sivang> can we continue with agenda, and discuss technicalities at the end maybe?
<enrico> sivang: I agree
<lulu> hornbeck: ok - shall we say - Action point - contact Rob Collins re: requirements and present pros and cons of options to the team??
<enrico> Let's compress this in Hornbeck is working on setting up a VCS for the docteam to use for larger documents
<hornbeck> enrico: yes
<enrico> Enrico is happy to help hornbeck
<sivang> Let have some more team memebers tell whay they are up into currently, so to finish status item :)
<enrico> I can talk about me
<sivang> ok, as we have several new people here that would be good they know who you are :) go ahead
<enrico> I'm currently half-available, in Brasil for a conference
<asw> lulu, hornbeck: I'm setting up Arch for my own project, please, use me as a resource as well.  
<enrico> I've been appointed at the documentation team secretary and I'm now working on setting up my position on this and to learn how to interact with Canonical
<sivang> enrico is going to be the person to complain too :)
<sivang> to
<enrico> In the EnricoZini wiki page you can find a list of advertised services from the secretary :)
<sivang> ok, I'll go next ? 
<enrico> I think that's it.  Questions welcome anytime
<plovs_work> i have been cleaning up the wiki, adding some icons and looking at the FrontPage
* sparkes_x needs to talk about icons later don't let me forget
* lulu Lulu is responsible for the Canonical and Ubuntu websites and making sure our Community's needs are met by the site and the wiki. Also - have been working with plovs on the APFrontPage
<sivang> My name is Sivan Green, I started working on the wiki some time ago, and a list of my current activies can be found at http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocumentationTeamCurrentWork
<enrico> lulu: do you mean that I've finally found the person to ask things for when I want to interact with Canonical?
<sparkes_x> I am Steve Parkes and I am writing a different book based on the current upstream docs, cos I am a free software zealot too ;-)
<lulu> enrico: fire away!  - All -  Please do not hesitate to be in touch and if I can help you I will.
* enrico hugs lulu
<sivang> Currently paying special attention to new people who join us, as well as well as devising a more formal plan / page for that matter.
<sivang> anyone else?
<George^Deka> I am George Dekavalas, currently doing nothing been thinking about making the plunge into contributing back and tonight is just the start of it.
<sparkes_x> nice one George^Deka ;-) welcome aboard
* ChrisH 's real name is Christoph Haas. I'm new to the devel side of Ubuntu. Sent an introduction to ubuntu-devel@ yesterday. I've been maintaining Debian projects like mentors.debian.net before and want to check if there is work for me here. :)
<asw> I am Alexander (Sasha) Wait.  Recently self-apointed free software zealot.  Willing test-subject for community procedures and evangelist for the use of the Ubuntu O/S in science.  I also run an ALife group in Boston and am the new maintainer of the REC.GAMES.COREWAR FAQ. 
<enrico> We should have an introduction of everyone now
<lulu> what a team :o)
<sivang> yes, I see some more people here, who hadn
<sivang> n't introduced themselves, for sake of new comers I propose they do :)
<enrico> Do people know of other active people who are not present here or written in the list?
<hornbeck> Ben Edwards dropped out
<sivang> what do you mean dropped out?
<hornbeck> he is no longer on the doc team
<lulu> Do you know why?
<sivang> since when?
<sivang> Was he mailing the list?
<hornbeck> lulu: yes, but he asked me not to say
<hornbeck> he was here first ,meeting and mailing list
<lulu> hornbeck: oh dear. Sorry to hear that. Is there anything we can do to encourage his return?
<hornbeck> lulu: I tried he said he was not interested in being a part anymore
<plovs_work> i wrote to him, not for now he said
<hornbeck> ok, lets try to speed up if we can :-)
* asw has another meeting. (Thought it was later.)  I'll log and see you all later! 
<hornbeck> asw: farwell
<sivang> bye asw
<hornbeck> fairwell
<lulu> cheers!
<enrico> asw: bye
<plovs_work> asw: see ya!
<George^Deka> asw: cya
<enrico> Let's move on.  I was thinking about asking people a list of wiki pages they maintain, but it would take time.  Could everyone just list them in their wiki homepages?
* plovs_work almost unnoticed looks at his watch 20 minutes left
<lulu> enrico: tools we are currently using?
<enrico> I know of Wiki and the upcoming version control system for large docs.  And the mailing list.
<hornbeck> enrico: agreed, those are the only ones right now
<lulu> ok - have we got a final decision on the wiki markup language and for the website?
<lulu> for the record?
<enrico> We don't have a specific IRC channel, and I don't usually see IRC chats about the doc team: are there some happening?
<sivang> lulu : I thought we would leave how it's now - everybody can choose whatever he likes 
<enrico> lulu: there was the idea of distinguishing between different stages of documents
<hornbeck> irc is happening in -devel
<hornbeck> lulu: I use ReST and moin
<sivang> lulu : I've seen you can choose what format of markup to save
<enrico> hornbeck: thanks.  For the records, there's a lot of traffic in -devel and I don't follow it, so if you see me in and need me, just say my name and I'll see a notice
<hornbeck> enrico: I normally PM you
<hornbeck> :-)
<plovs_work> #ubuntu-doc would not be bad
<hornbeck> agreed
<lulu> ok - perhaps we should have one we recommend - so we can get consistency?
<sivang> let's agree for #ubuntu-doc for all our docdevel discussions, it's been great in serving us till now
<plovs_work> somebody has to find out about channelownership etc
<George^Deka> well in terms of markup to use what do people consider the best to us, for someone who has not edited a wiki before (no tendencies to one or other)
<enrico> [format]  this idea that was around in the list was to use the easiest markup (Moin) for things everyone scraps on, since it has a very low barrier of entry.  Then, if things evolve and need more structure and the people in the page want, it can be refactored in ReST
<enrico> Then eventually it can become a DocBook work if it grows up even more and the team of people that work on it feel like
<plovs_work> enrico, agreed, moin is easy but broken in zwiki, ReST is difficult but (more) complete
<sparkes_x> enrico, the other parts of the site don't support moin so moving to /docs would require new markup
<enrico> (from this recap I'm writing, I see a pattern emerging: "the people active on the page are the ones that decide" :)
<sparkes_x> enrico, that seemst o be the case
<sivang> I think we should be focusing on MoinMoin, really use the wiki is the scrap & sketch area. 
<lulu> I had never edited a wiki before joining Canonical - moinmoin was very easy to learn. an should be fully supported by the ZWiki now....
<sivang> offline, full fledged stable docs should be docbook
<enrico> [wiki]  we seem to have an agreement.
<sparkes_x> sivang, agreed
<enrico> Current wiki issues:
<hornbeck> sivang: yes, docbook is a must offline
<enrico>  * speed (they're working on it, but nothing short term will happen)
<enrico>  * things lacking from Moin (I see TableOfContents often mentioned), is there other things?
<sivang> so we've heared from lulu :-) thanks for your support though
<enrico> sivang: yes, I was recapping lulu message: lulu, sorry for missing the attribution
<enrico>  * license of wiki contents
* plovs_work applauds docbook
<hornbeck> sivang: I really like ReST on the wiki
<sivang> GPL! GPL! GPL! :)
<sparkes_x> enrico, gpl 
* ChrisH doubts a little that Wiki is really useful for more complex documents
<hornbeck> gpl
<sparkes_x> gpl is the best option for upstream
* sivang agrees with ChrisH
* enrico is for GPL as well
<hornbeck> ChrisH agreed
<sparkes_x> ChrisH, true
* ChrisH raises his hand for Docbook-XML
<sparkes_x> ChrisH, seconded ;-)
<hornbeck> docbook is for offline docs
<hornbeck> we have agreed on that
<enrico> lulu: jdub told me there was some offline discussion about wiki content license, but I never heard of outcomes
* plovs_work agrees
<ChrisH> hornbeck: It can be easily used to create online docs, too.
* sivang agrees with ChrisH
<hornbeck> ChrisH please send a link
<enrico> lulu: I tried asking twice in the warthogs list but I got no answer
<sparkes_x> ChrisH, don't offend the wiki fans ;-)
<lulu> enrico: Not sure of that myself - I am willing to find out - put e down for that action point.
<enrico> lulu: do you know of anything?
* hornbeck is not really a wiki fan
<lulu> and I'll get back to you all
<enrico> lulu: ok.  Here we have an agreement on GPL
<lulu> enrico: ok
<enrico> lulu: if it's ok for them as well, we can proceed and put an explicit notice in the wiki
<George^Deka> I am sure i read somewhere that someone had an issue on using the GPL for docs, but im fine with it
<ChrisH> hornbeck: http://www.sagehill.net/docbookxsl/ and http://www.docbook.org/tdg/en/html/
<lulu> enrico: I'd like to have a word with SABDFL on that issue ok?
* ChrisH can help with providing Docbook-XML templates and Makefiles
<hornbeck> ChrisH: thank you
<enrico> It's important that there are no licensing issues in the wiki, or it would be a big problem when taking things from there into bigger doucments
<sivang> George^Deka : that was for GFDL
<enrico> lulu: ok.  I tried already to talk with sabdfl about it, but with little success.  I hope you're more lucky
<enrico> We're getting to the end of the wiki discussion.  Someone has some missing feature to report?
<lulu> enrico: let's put a wiki page up of what the argument is and concerns raised and I will get a decision ok!?
<sparkes_x> we also need to take into account some parts of the wiki may be imported from elsewhere and have different licences
<George^Deka> sivang: maybe but could have sworn there was also an issue with GPL, because i knew there was the issues with GFDL (non-DFSG)
<enrico> lulu: ok.  my original mail on warthogs can be used as base contents for the page
<lulu> sparkes_x: exactly. 
<sivang> George^Deka : would you like to investiage and tell me your conclusions? this might be interesting.
<enrico> lulu: I can take care of creating the page
<lulu> enrico: good. Time is running short - let's move on.
<sivang> what page are we talking about?
<enrico> sivang: a recap on the licensing issue
<sivang> ok
<George^Deka> i will try, now trying to remeber where i saw it (me thinks it was ubuntu related or debian weekly news)
<enrico> Next point is: how to approach new members
* enrico hugs new members
<sivang> yes
* sivang hugs them also
<sivang> :)
<lulu> sivang: is there an ETA for a draft of the Initiation process so we can contribute wehn it's up there?
<George^Deka> well as far as i can tell as being new for like 8 hours now, having people actually respond to your emails of help helps
<sivang> lulu : I will have one by tommorow
<lulu> sivang: awesome!
<sivang> I would like to see we streamline the way we approach our new comers,
<George^Deka> i have had the issue with moz that they are all two busy to get back to you on if they want your help or not
<hornbeck> George same with mono-doc
<hornbeck> noone wants to help you
<sivang> together with a planned new comers TODO list, learning resources etc.
<enrico> I propose to have a DocTeam Dogma
<enrico> 1) All help mails should be answered
<George^Deka> lulu: brillant - can you mail the link cause i might forget otherwise - good place for me to learn
<sivang> bottom line, when someone approaches us and says "I wanna help"
<sivang> he should be able to do so in matter of days, no better ! in matter of hours...:)
<enrico> 2) RTFM is not an answer, unless it's nicely put and with a working link to the documentation
<lulu> George^Deka: which link?
* sivang HAILS enrico
<hornbeck> I am sorry everyone for my RTFM reply
<George^Deka> lulu: initiation process
<enrico> hornbeck: Don't worry: it happens
<enrico> hornbeck: there are habits we all carry from other communities
<sivang> no it's ok, We love you John Hornbeck :)
* lulu points to sivang!
<sladen> hornbeck: ''do this and this and this.  A more detailed overview can be found at <link>''
<hornbeck> yes, I know
<lulu> sivang: could u let the list know where the initiation doc is once it's up there?
<sivang> I would like us to see take up on the spirit of #gnome-love
<sivang> lulu : ofcourse,
<sivang> I would send the link to ML
<George^Deka> enrico: RTFM ?
<hornbeck> read the f**ing manual
<enrico> George^Deka: Read The Fine Manual
<hornbeck> enrico is being nice
<enrico> hornbeck: it's an acronym which has two expansions: one for the writer and one for the reader :)
<George^Deka> i should have known - it is 1am here
<enrico> About always responding to help messages, we have a deadlock problem
<enrico> Many help request don't get answered because everyone thinks someone else will answer
<hornbeck> everyone should answer if they see it first
<hornbeck> if you see it reply
<sivang> yes that is important
<sivang> so new people wouldn't get the feeling it
<sivang> no alie
<sivang> alive
<lulu> enrico: good point to have one person who is ultimately responsible? - sivang - do you want to answer these?
<enrico> hornbeck: good.  third dogma
<sivang> (i can't type today, or anyday)
<enrico>  3) If you see it, reply
<George^Deka> As far as i am concerned the more replies the better, it makes you feel really wanted and that people are there to help you out.
<sivang> lulu : I will
<plovs_work> new people should go to the mailing-list or #ubuntu-doc
<enrico> George^Deka: very good point!
<plovs_work> we should be nice and then point them there
<enrico> George^Deka: usually one thinks duplicate replies should be avoided because they generate unnecessary traffic, but this is an artefact from when we had 9.6Kbps modems.  We should get past it!
<George^Deka> one issue i did have today was there is no link from ubuntu mail-list page to the -doc ML - had to find it in a post from -users
<sladen> plovs_work: would inviting people to #ubuntu-help be more useful than clouding your documentation-discussion channel?
* enrico thanks George^Deka for enlightening him
<enrico> Dogma 4
<lulu> George^Deka: yes - but we need to have someone ultimately responsible. 
<enrico>  4) Don't worry about duplicate replies
<George^Deka> enrico: well thats what newbies are for
<lulu> I am responsible for answering the info and webmaster emails and that has been a comment from most people - we always get back to people and it's a highlight for us - I think it's very important to be a responsive distro.
<plovs_work> sladen, if they want help with doc-stuff they are welcome, not for general help
<sladen> plovs_work: nod, sorry, missed that bit
<George^Deka> lulu: but it took me a while to get to it so i could even join, if i wasn't persitant enough to find the archives i would have not been here tonight cause i didnt know it was happening
<enrico> George^Deka: please if you see 
<plovs_work> we need one person who is responsible for those kind of things, helping newbies, newbie-docs etc
<enrico> George^Deka: please if you see other issues like that, write a mail to the list: you're raising very valuable issues we were not able to see
<enrico> plovs_work: sivan offered, if I'm not mistaken
<George^Deka> enrico: sure will thought i would bring it here if i could anyway, another issue i had to guess it was on freenode
<sivang> I think having a dedicated person for this task would be great, I am willing to voulenteer for that, but even so having other community memebers responsible for that would make a nice redundency in case I can't make it once in a while.
<plovs_work> enrico, thanks
<lulu> George^Deka: good point  and sivan: thanks - I think that's a good call.
<enrico> sivang: yes, there could be a welcome team
<plovs_work> sivang, you'll do fine
<enrico> I'm happy to be in the welcome team
<enrico> Welcome team: sivang, enrico
<sivang> great
<lulu> done! What's next?
<enrico> Next point: offline documentation
<hornbeck> yes, I was about to type that
<enrico> Do we agree on docbook?  Yes.
<enrico> Next point:
<hornbeck> yes
<enrico> :)
<hornbeck> we HAVE to start writing this stuff
<hornbeck> and decideing what is being brought over from debian
<hornbeck> and gnome
<sivang> I would  like to see one goal we set up -
<enrico> Conversion strategies between different formats: should we discuss it now or just tackle it when the problem shows up?
<enrico> I propose to use the ancient philosophy "first get to do it, then document it, then automate it"
<sivang> I am ok with postponing it for when the problem shows up
<George^Deka> or leave it to next meeting
<sivang> yes it would be wise :) I wonder what brought me to put it htere in the first place...
* sivang ducks
<enrico> Next point, then
<enrico> License (again)
<sivang> GPL! GPL! GPL! :)
<enrico> I would #include <what said before>
<hornbeck> are we going to fix debian docs?
<hornbeck> I am now on the debian-doc list and they are very outdated
<enrico> Do we need licensing differences between wiki and docbook documents?
<sivang> I don't think so
<lulu> hornbeck: and make them ubuntu-docs?
<plovs_work> we need a page, stating what docbook docs we need, i for one have no idea
<hornbeck> lulu: yes
<lulu> hornbeck: I like your thinking :o)
<hornbeck> I really would like to see alot of offline stuff for hoary
<hornbeck> I like the wiki but it is not a solid doc base
<sivang> I would like to raise up one goal for hoary, to pollish up already exisitng docs and especilly improving GNOME docs to include Ubuntu's quircks and differences from stock
* sparkes_x notices synagy at work when someone quotes http://www.paul.sladen.org/pronunciation/  in a mailing list message just as sladen was offering advice in here ;-)
<lulu> sivang: add it to the wiki under HoaryHedgehog
<George^Deka> I was thinking about it today, we need the wiki offline so it can just be used as help, with all the FAQ's etc i have been seeing around
<hornbeck> gnome2-user-doc will be the first thing in the new server
* sparkes_x I am fixing debian docs
<sivang> lulu : ok, I will
<George^Deka> So it might be a case of converting it (wiki) to docbook
<enrico> If we get really good, we could do like de devels do with code: make patches and apply them to future versions of documents
<sivang> this is what I have in mind
<sparkes_x> wtf I thought I was the only person who cared about debian-docs ;-)
<enrico> But we can thing about that when we get really good
<lulu> George^Deka: we have a Help Centre in Plone, called Documentation, where we are hoping all FAQs, HowTos and books will sit.
<hornbeck> enrico: I have already begun talking to debian-doc guys about how I submit patches
<sivang> lulu : I would like also to have some of it compiled and to be installed in an ubuntusystem out the box, and be browseable through yelp
<George^Deka> lulu: granted, i still havent kicked debian and kde off this box yet. It will happen soon though
<sivang> lulu : that is the markup that is used for that section on the main site?
<enrico> hornbeck: cool!!
<lulu> sivang: we have a mix of html and structured text currently
<enrico> hornbeck: you mean we could team up with debian doc guys?  That would be AWESOME!  (or OUTSTANDING for the brits)
<sparkes_x> you lot are taking the piss now ;-) when I suggested debian docs everyone barfed
<lulu> sivang: I think structured text is easier for most pepes and will need help converting all pages to it.
* sivang finally starts to see that his wish to feed debian back comes to a reality
<hornbeck> enrico: I posted to their list about helping, they were very happy to have me
<hornbeck> sparkes_x: You are not sexy like me so noone listens :-p
<enrico> hornbeck: you made by day!
<sivang> ChrisH : now here a team of debian who accepts new blood :)
<enrico> hornbeck: you made my day!
<sparkes_x> bollocks to this
<sparkes_x> you lot say one thing and mean another
<sparkes_x> we argued about debian docs for a week and everyone was against the idea
<hornbeck> sparkes: I hope you are joking
<enrico> sparkes_x: I wasn't
<sparkes_x> and now everyone is for the idea
<sparkes_x> enrico, true
<sivang> lulu : yelp eats DocBook XML, so I guess we might use the conversion script and see what results we can have in yelp
<sparkes_x> but everyone else (mostly) was
<hornbeck> I don't remember being against debian-docs
<hornbeck> I may have been
<hornbeck> who knows
<sivang> I surely wasn't against it
<sparkes_x> hornbeck, you where ;-)
<hornbeck> well you made me see the light :-)
<sivang> well, it's all evident on the mailing list archive
<sivang> if anyone cares to proove that, but we're not debian kiddies are we?
<sivang> :)
<lulu> sivang: ok - good. I am looking into Plone ATContentTypes and lingua plone for the site so we can deal with translations - it's going to be a little while tho to get that done.
<hornbeck> I am against most things till someone tells me why it is a good idea
<sparkes_x> hornbeck, debian is always a good idea ;-)
<sivang> hornbeck : I also talked you into it :)
<ChrisH> sivang: sorry, I missed a few lines (coworker interruption). I just read that we agree on Docbook. :)
<sivang> ChrisH : I think we do
<hornbeck> sivang, sparkes, enrico: all of you talked me into it
<hornbeck> ChrisH: yes
<enrico> Ok, I guess we're all happy that we all agree and we don't want to fight just because we do agree, isn't it? :)
<sivang> hahhaha
<sivang> yes
<hornbeck> no I just like to fight
* sivang thanks for enrico
<sivang> hornbeck, I suggest you put up a wiki page "Who wants to fight with me" and see what you can get :)
<enrico> People who like to fight meet at 15:00 UTC in #ubuntu-arena :)
<ChrisH> lol
<George^Deka> lol
<hornbeck> so it is agreed, we will work on converting debian-docs, and send any fixes back to debian
<sivang> yeah!
<enrico> Let's move on: Hoary milestone strategy
<sivang> yes
<sivang> Ok, First thing is to get some pollishing for documentation Hoary is already carrying
<hornbeck> Hoary milestone for me is, get alot of docs
<sivang> for instance, MAN pages
<sivang> isntalled HTML documents
<sivang> GNOME documentation
* hornbeck vomits: I hate man pages
<sivang> info pages etc etc.
<sparkes_x> man pages are part of the deb
<enrico> hornbeck: you can write man pages in docbook! :)
<enrico> hornbeck: apt-get install docbook-to-man
<hornbeck> I still hate man pages
<hornbeck> they are ugly, and very criptic
<sivang> this might very well benefit other communities we are basin on, debian is one example. 
<hornbeck> written by those smart people for smart people
<plovs_work> hornbeck, you should read openbsd man-pages, they are actually nice
<ChrisH> Sorry to get back a step. Which debian docs are supposed to be converted to docbook? Most of them are already in docbook format IIRC.
<sivang> plovs_work : BSD was my other exmaple :)
<George^Deka> well on my old deb system man was the only place i knew to turn other than readme
<hornbeck> ChrisH: convert debian docs to Ubuntu docs
<ChrisH> hornbeck: s/Debian/Ubuntu/ ? :)
<sparkes_x> ChrisH, they need to go from sgml to xml and then we start adding ubuntu isms to them
<sivang> make them Ubuntish
<sparkes_x> at least that was my fucking plan all along
<ChrisH> sparkes_x: ic
<sivang> sparkes_x : I am warning you for bad language :)
<hornbeck> sparkes_x: you are a angry little man
<sivang> watch it, hornbeck, enrico help!! :))
* enrico is lost
<sparkes_x> I resign from my post on the doc team, too many people argueing a lost cause and then changing their position
<sladen> sparkes_x: ;-)
<sparkes_x> so bye bye and enjoy the doc team without me
<hornbeck> what?
* enrico is lost and bewildered
* hornbeck is also
* sivang just hides from the splinters
* George^Deka too
<enrico> Ehi, people, cool down.
<hornbeck> hmmm
<sladen> sparkes_x: oops, I was replying to your previous comment then...
<hornbeck> if that was my fault I am sorry
* lulu omigosh he was serious?
* ChrisH is lost
<sparkes> hornbeck: no worries see you later
<hornbeck> I thought he was joking
<enrico> ?
* enrico didn't understand what happened
* ChrisH neither
<enrico> I propose we move on at talk with sparkes later
<ChrisH> Someone please press F1.
<George^Deka> ChrisH: i did
<enrico> We were on Hoary milestones
<lulu> enrico: that's a good idea - mediation is needed :o) 
<plovs_work> enrico, can we have a DocteamHoaryMileston page?
<enrico> I don't know how many milestones we can setup now, though
<plovs_work> make a pgae with priorities
<hornbeck> the Ubuntu book is a huge milestone
<sivang> enrico : agreed. I got a headache
<George^Deka> well looking at the hoarygoals page today i noticed under the targets of opportunity there seems to be a bit of stuff doc related the devs want, some of it even says bounty next to it
<plovs_work> hornbeck, and only, what, 4 months left
<enrico> I propose we get going writing the documentation we like to write, then reschedule a milestone meeting in a month or so
<enrico> plovs_work: 4 months?  Uhm... then in a couple of weeks
<hornbeck> enrico: agreed
* sivang agrees with enrico
<enrico> Next point: Start working
<plovs_work> enrico, why don't you make a proposal, you are good at those
<lulu> sivang was going to put up a page in HoaryHedgehog - let's get our goals on there and prioritise what we need to get done for Hoary.
<enrico> plovs_work: you mean, for Hoary milestones?  Ok.  I can work on something
<George^Deka> do we know what the devs/cannonical want in the way of docs for hoary
<enrico> George^Deka: one problem with the devs is that they're goign to stabilize the feature list quite late
<sivang> yes, it would be nice to get an idea what they might require, before we set off to do docs of our own when big parts of already shipped software needs documented.
<lulu> George^Deka: Can u ask on the dev list as our representative? point them to the doc page in hoaryhedgehog and they can help prioritise and add what they tyhink is needed.
<George^Deka> enrico: true but some docs they might wish may not be so easy - especially if alot of it is from scratch
<hornbeck> enrico: saunm, complains of that alot
<hornbeck> shaunm
<lulu> George^Deka: and then the doc team can say what is possible to meet the Hoary deadline?
<George^Deka> lulu: sure ill do that, better join the list then - enrico just make sure you summarize what im doing its 1:30am here now
<enrico> George^Deka: summarize what you're doing?
<lulu> enrico: if we can have minutes of the meeting with action points, deadline and who is responsible on the wiki - that would be awesome.
<enrico> lulu: sure: it's my job to make a resume of this meeting
<sivang> enrico : and please do remind me all of the things I promised to do today, so I won't forget? :)
<George^Deka> enrico: lulu sumed it up for me
<enrico> I'm now a bit slow in answering because I have a very loud brasilian television set right next to me
<enrico> sivang: sure
<sivang> enrico : after all, this is the secretary cow speaking :)
<enrico> Uhm... di we still have things to discuss?
<lulu> yes!
<enrico> The "Start working" issue?
* enrico hates loud television sets
<enrico> Unfortunately, it's not my house
<lulu> guys - FrontPage - plovs has worked hard on this - we've pretty much incorporated the old front page into APFrontPage.
<hornbeck> I say APFrontPage be moved up
<lulu> can all check it and approve/advise on changes so we can make it the Canonical FronPage? :o)
<lulu> FrontPage that is!
<sivang> Would it be ok to agree now on the front page and them make modifications / comments ?
<sivang> lulu : you mena this is going to be the new wiki frontpage ?
<hornbeck> it looks great to me
<lulu> sivang: yup! that's the plan - as a good starting point......
<hornbeck> good job plovs, lulu
* enrico suggest a note abuot the license to be added as soon as it's agreed
* lulu aye to making it the FrontPage....anyone second?
<enrico> Fine for me
* sivang nods
<sivang> and tanks AP for the good work
<lulu> enrico: yes indeedy
<enrico> Ok, last point is start working
<lulu> plovs_work: ping!
<plovs_work> lulu, :-)
<lulu> plovs_work: we just wanted to say thanks for your hard work and we can make the page the new FrontPage!
<sivang> Maybe a milestone for hoary plan was too harsh,
<sivang> what about discussing close goals? 
<hornbeck> I thought we would meet again about hoary goals?
<lulu> sivang: we have a To Do list on the wiki  - close goals should go on there - Hoary can go on there - perhaps we need to make this a table with person responsible and deadline dates. - http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/WikiToDo
<enrico> hornbeck: yes.
<sivang> ok
* sivang rests
<enrico> I'd say let's have some minutes for people to post items not in agenda, then close the meeting.
<hornbeck> Well I will be compiling the book into its order of the next couple weeks and calling on people to help in areas
<hornbeck> I will also start looking at debian docs that could help us and updating them to current
<sivang> is anybody keen to take up some work on pollishing documentation that already ships with Ubuntu?
<enrico> sivang: That can do together with the Debian teem
<George^Deka> well i may have a try at a fx doc as i mentioned on mailing list. But what else needs doing cause i dont have any doc work yet
<enrico> adding/fixing manpages and other doucmentation inside packages
<sivang> ok, and what about gnome-user-docs ?
<sivang> this is more than merely the user manual
<lulu> do you have a WartyWarthogDoc page where all the tasks are listed - what docs need work? then people can methodically go through them and take responsibility for what they are keen to do?
<sivang> lulu : good idea :)
* lulu wasn't  sure who to direct that to!
<sivang> lulu : I had something similar on the /UDP pages,
<sivang> lulu : I will break things down and try put them in the relavent places for HOary
<sivang> I might need some help with that , though
<lulu> sivang: great - then each release can have it's goals set out by the doc team and the dev team can collaborate with doc team on it.
<sivang> yes
<sivang> enrico : what do you think?
<hornbeck> lulu: great idea
<lulu> great!  guys I have to go in 5 - are we almost done?
<sivang> seems so
<hornbeck> same, here: work is calling
<sivang> enrico ?
<enrico> sure
<lulu> enrico: thanks very much!
<enrico> I declare the meeting finished, then.  I will post the summary in the ubuntu-doc list as soon as I have it
<enrico> The Holy Cow moos
<hornbeck> enrico: thanks
<hornbeck> thanks everyone, great meeting
<lulu> :o) thanks all! Great to meet u guys.
<plovs_work> ok, thanks all!
<George^Deka> now its time for bed :P
<sivang> thank you everybody
<sivang> night George^Deka
<sivang> lamont_r : we have just ajorned 
<sivang> :)
<enrico> Thanks everyone for attending, look forward to the oncoming work!
<lamont_r> sivang: 's ok.
<hornbeck> well I am off to work
<hornbeck> goodbye for now
* enrico goes writing the summary
<plovs_work> see you all in #ubuntu-doc !
<lulu> enrico: will u talk to sparkes asap? it would be a shame to have him go
<enrico> lulu: yes, I'll see what I can do
<George^Deka> did you see his resignation mail
<ChrisH> lulu: he has already posted on -doc. :(
<enrico> oh
<ChrisH> I wasn't sure whether it was a joke. Obviously he was serious about it.
<lulu> ChrisH: oh dear - he must've been very cheesed off....
<sivang> yes
* ChrisH probably lacks the previous history
<sivang> I reckon he didn't take so good the jokes me and horbeck made on account of the debian works
<sivang> I mean, he eventually said it was due to lack of time 
<sivang> but..
<sivang> I just dind't understand why he said "everybody" where against his plans, I never said something against working up debiand docs
<ChrisH> Is he the "interface person" regarding the interchange of documentation between Debian and Ubuntu?
<sivang> I think that is George^Deka
<plovs_work> ChrisH, enrico is the interface, most of the time
<sivang> if I recall right the backlog
<sivang> at least he said he voulneteers for that
<plovs_work> that is right
<plovs_work> so guys, maybe you can start looking at the FrontPage, and flame away (in the mailinglist)
#ubuntu-meeting 2004-11-20
<mdz> CC meeting?
<Kamion> here
<Kamion> um, had forgotten about it
<Kamion> we don't seem to have any agenda items
<mdz> anything on the agenda?
<Kamion> nothing
<sabdfl> nothing that i saw
<mdz> agenda on the wiki seems to be empty
<sabdfl> sorry for being late
<sabdfl> i checked this morning and it was just old stuff
<Kamion> do we have AOB?
<sabdfl> so made it blank
<sabdfl> AOB?
<Kamion> any other business (i.e. off-agenda)
<sabdfl> not from me
<mdz> yes
<mdz> I'd like to talk about the maintainer process
<sabdfl> hmm... maybe conference invitations to community members
<mdz> lack thereof, at the moment
<mdz> is someone expected to be working on community processes? jdub?
<sabdfl> mdz: do we have a framework for maintainers whohave been appointed?
<sabdfl> i think mako
<sabdfl> he sms'd me to say his net was busted
<sabdfl> he's trying to make another plan
<mdz> oh
<sabdfl> i would really like to get a community team going
<sabdfl> in other words have a few maintainers who are not Canonical folk
<mdz> we have a keyring for the archive, and a queue of folks who want to be considered
<sabdfl> with full upload capability
<mdz> the rest is documentation and procedures
<mdz> when mako and I talked about this last, we were on the same page as to how it should work
<sabdfl> ok
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:mdz] : Shotgun Community Council meeting
<sabdfl> ah, the clocks have gone back, that's why my alarm didn't go
<mdz> I also think it would be a good idea for someone on the community team to work with the doc team on a "how to get involved" document
<mdz> the categories I have seen so far are "I have a suggestion for improving Ubuntu", "I have a problem with Ubuntu" and "I want to become an Ubuntu developer"
<mdz> I wrote a document for the "I have a problem" case which walks through support and bug reporting basics
<sabdfl> the MaintainerCandidates page has a few people
<mako2> there is already a participate document
<mdz> but i think it would be nice to have a very high-level document about how individuals can relate to the Ubuntu community
<mako2> mdz: do you think it should be built on top of that?
<sabdfl> are there any there who have strong credentials from existing open source work that would allow us to approve them immediately?
<Kamion> also "when you *don't* need to be an Ubuntu developer in order to get your problem fixed"
<mdz> mako2: possibly, I'm waiting for plone to give it to me so I can see
<Kamion> thinking of the people who want to join just in order to get some theme added or whatever
<sabdfl> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/community/participate/document_view
<sabdfl> mako2: perhaps that just needs some more specifics
<sabdfl> "become a maintainer" doesn't tell you where to start
<sabdfl> just needs a link to the relevant process
<mako2> right
<Kamion> (is there any way we can get rid of those daft "/document_view" bits on the end of all the wiki URLs? the URLs work fine without them)
<mdz> once the process is documented :-)
<mdz> Kamion++
* mako2 apologizes if he gets disconnected.. i have the laptop halfway out the kitchen window and (am getting up to 30 seconds of lag)
<sabdfl> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/MaintainerCandidates
<sabdfl> is there anyone on there that we would feel comfortable approving right away?
<mdz> mako2: I'm thinking that it should have some very simple bullet points which link to more detailed documents
<mdz> mako2: each aimed at a use case which already exists
<mdz> so that a user who comes to the page who already knows what they want, can find the relevant interface
<Kamion> Matthias Urlichs is a competent Debian guy, IIRC
<mako2> mdz: i'm happy to help with that
<sabdfl> i would be happy to approve some of the guys who have made great doc contributions already
<mako2> Kamion: yes, we've been chatting a little bit offlist as wel
<Kamion> Thibaut VARENE is the ia64 guy and should be straightforward to approve
<mdz> his name is familiar, but I can't vouch personally
<sabdfl> as long as they agree just to work on package documentation
<daniels> lamont can vouch for thibaut, IIRC
<mako2> Kamion: he maintains some non-trivial python packages
<mako2> python-docutils (RST)
<mdz> elmo: do we have a public upload queue?
<mako2> i can also vouch for thibaut
<mako2> i was his AM in Debian so i've already gone through NM with him once
<Kamion> oh, he's the gnutls/gcrypt maintainer
<elmo> mdz: no - we're waiting on zope 3's ftpd getting fixed - I've just pinged SteveA about it
<Kamion> $ grep-available -nsPackage 'Matthias Urlichs' | wc -l
<Kamion> 80
* mdz blinks
<sabdfl> gosh
<sabdfl> that would be a yes then
<elmo> yeah, smurf's competent IMO
<Kamion> (quantity not implying quality or anything, but :-))
<sabdfl> Kamion: why do I always find myself agreeing with you when you point out that sort of thing?
<Kamion> I'm just such an agreeable guy
<sabdfl> erm. but i'm not.
<mdz> because of his sneaky tendency to be correct
<mako2> yeah, but he also maintains some touch ones
<sabdfl> ah. yes, that
<mako2> i've been working with him this week on preparing the new upstream release of python-docutils
<sabdfl> ok, let's take these one at a time, maybe that would be better
<sabdfl> we still need a proper process for guys we don't know already
<sabdfl> mako2, can we leave the process documentation in your hands, deliverable for the next cc meeting?
<mdz> yes
<mako2> yes
<sabdfl> and mdz, can we handle both techboard and cc approvals today, do you have your tech board handy?
<mako2> mdz: help me outline and check it,eh?
<mdz> hm, I'll see
<mdz> mako2: definitely
<sabdfl> ok: thibaut varene, opinions?
<mako2> i was his am in debian
<sabdfl> already discussed?
<mdz> (prodded Keybuk)
<mako2> i passed him there with glowing recommendations and i would do it again here :)
<mdz> sabdfl: mako and lamont both say good things, I've chatted with him and found him sane
<sabdfl> how do we want to do this, require all cc members to say aye or nay?
<Kamion> he's been sane when I've talked to him too; thibaut ack
<sabdfl> ok, thibaut is in
<Keybuk> evening
<mdz> cheers
<sabdfl> from a cc perspective, mdz, you make the call for tech board
<sabdfl> hiya scott
<sabdfl> sivan green
<sabdfl> he's been very "present"
<Kamion> sabdfl: I think requiring CC unanimity would be good until we have a clearer procedure
<sabdfl> lot's of enthusiasm on the doc front
<mako2> sivan has been working mostly on doc stuff up until now but is interested in working with a mentor towards other types of stuff
<sabdfl> not much experience i don't think
<sabdfl> a candidate for the full process?
<pitti> I talk with him very often; he seems eager, but did not finish much up to now
<mako2> he's been in contact with me directly several times a week about a number of things
<mdz> mako and I talked a bit, and I think the full process can very nearly be condensed to a single bullet point
<mdz> the key is that we can trust them to know their own limits
<mako2> i gather that sivan would be happy with the fully process
<mako2> right
<pitti> I think so, too
<sabdfl> mdz: can you turn that into something a little less existential?
<mdz> if we can be confident that someone will ask before entering unknown waters
<pitti> but he should finish at least a small coding project before he starts the full process, right?
<Kamion> sivan definitely isn't an experienced developer; I'd be happy for him to work with a mentor to bring him up to speed, but I also think he is inclined to ask people rather than storm ahead
<mdz> and not touch things that they aren't entirely confident about
<sabdfl> ok
<Keybuk> I've certainly not got any objections, have seen him around and he seems willing to help
<mako2> sabdfl: so we pass him saying "you are a doc guy until we prove you can safely work beyon that. ubuntu is not the place to learn and experiment and make beginners mistakes"
<pitti> Kamion: for my taste he even asks too much
<Kamion> pitti: I wasn't going to say that :-)
<mdz> he's definitely enthusiastic; I can't say I know a thing about his technical interests or skills
<sabdfl> mako2: i'm hesitant to pass him on the basis of enthusiasm alone
<Kamion> pitti: (yes, it can be annoying; it's better than the other way round though)
<pitti> Kamion: but I do, he asks me all the time on every day
<pitti> Kamion: I agree
<Kamion> oh, he has done some security work with you hasn't he?
<pitti> As a matter of fact I already am a kind of mentor for him
<Kamion> pitti: how much has he actually done on the security front?
<sabdfl> without wanting to rehash the previous process discussion, we did say that we would expect candidates to collect a list of real contributions made
<mdz> Kamion: he helped with the Warty security review
<mdz> research
<pitti> Kamion: so far he helped with rewieving the 2002 DSAs, but nothing else (that I know of)
<mako2> pitti: he's done documentation work
<pitti> mako2: sure, but I cannot evaluate that
<Kamion> has the doc work he's done been reviewed?
<mdz> doesn't the maintainercandidates page ask them to submit a resume?
<mako2> i think sabdfl is correct.. lets have sivan work with pitti, myself, and whoever else
<mako2> Kamion: no, but i can review the doc work for hte next meeting
<pitti> he often asks me to assign some taks to him, but so far he did not finish anything
<mdz> he did: http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/SivanGreen
<sabdfl> we should only fast-track people who we really know and have no doubt about
<pitti> I would not want to fast-track him
<mdz> sabdfl: agreed
<sabdfl> ok
<pitti> I will happily bring him through some sort of NM process
<sabdfl> if it takes him two or three months, it's worth it for him and for us
<mako2> pitti: that would be great :)
<pitti> he seems eager to do the process, though
<pitti> mako2: I have some experience as AM, 
<mako2> pitti: well, this will be a little different but we can discuss that outside of the meeting :)
<pitti> mako2: but as I understood, the process should be shorter
<pitti> mako2: ack
<sabdfl> pitti: just long enough for you to be confident in him, and in your relationship with him
<mako2> pitti: i'd like to do a better job of documenting the process so we work together to sort do a self-documentating process :)
<pitti> sabdfl: I can check his technical skills (and help him with that), but not necessarily the doc stuff
<sabdfl> pitti: that's ok
<mako2> i can overview the doc stuff.. i follow their process/work
<pitti> sabdfl: okay, I'll do it
<sabdfl> he should be able to point to a list of doc contributions if that's his pitch
<sabdfl> ok, next
<pitti> sabdfl: but I will give him some real-world tasks rather than the theoretical Debian NM quesion
<pitti> sabdfl: s/quesion/questions/
<sabdfl> mattias uhrlichs, smurf
<Kamion> sabdfl: aye
<sabdfl> pitti: fine
<sabdfl> Kamion: thanks
<sabdfl> elmo?
<mdz> perhaps it is sufficient to get N confirms, rather than tally votes from everyone?
<elmo> sabdfl: for smurf?  aye
<mako2> i already nodded earlier
<sabdfl> ok
<sabdfl> smurf is approved from cc
<mako2> mdz: only 4 people :)
<sabdfl> oliver grawert?
<Kamion> bit of a lack of technical resume there
<mdz> he's been active on -devel
<mako2> mdz: what is his nick?
<sabdfl> not known enough for me to like fast-tracking
<mdz> mako2: not sure, I meant the mailing list
<daniels> i believe his nick is ogra
<mdz> ah, he's active on #ubuntu as well, then
<mako2> yeah, i've seen his messages but i'm with sabdfl here
<mdz> sabdfl: agreed
<sabdfl> ok, full process
<sabdfl> alexander poslavsky has been excellent on the wiki
<mdz> Alexander Poslavsky is a doc team guy, very active
<sabdfl> perhaps a doc candidate?
* mako2 nods
<Kamion> what's our general rule on doc team <=> maintainership?
<mdz> what does that mean?
<sabdfl> Kamion: i think doc team members should have full commit capability
<Kamion> mdz: what sabdfl just said. :-)
<Kamion> sabdfl: ok
<sabdfl> i think we said maintainers would also be able to push out a release
<Kamion> plovs is fine with me, I think he's earned his stripes up to now
<sabdfl> but in the absence of HCT, would we prefer to err on the side of allowing or disallowing uploads by doc team members?
<mdz> sabdfl: commits to the package archive?
<mdz> sabdfl: disallowing
<sabdfl> i'd fall on the other side :-)
<mdz> most of them have neither interest in packaging, nor a GPG key
<fabbione> i agree with mdz
<sabdfl> perhaps we could have a tighter policy post-freeze?
<sabdfl> empowering is better, if someone trips up pre-freeze it's unlikely to be a disaster
<mako2> i'd prefer to not have two classes of maintainers
<sabdfl> mako2: we did already agree that though
<sabdfl> contributor - sends patches
<sabdfl> committer - can commit to the arch branches
<mako2> right
<sabdfl> maintainer - can trigger the release
<mako2> i was taking about maintainers
<sabdfl> in the absence of the arch infrastructure i'd prefer to use social structures to enforce "doc only" maintainership
<sabdfl> if someone uploads something thats out of line, that's a social issue
<sabdfl> which we can quickly sort out
<mdz> there are more issues apart from uploading things out of line
<mako2> it's hard enough to get people to do the not-so-sexy documentation thing.. full fledged maintainership, whatever that is
<mako2> sound good to me
<mdz> a new maintainer means a new key in the keyring, which needs to be properly signed and protected
<sabdfl> right, so we have to have confidence in the person's gpg security knowledge
<mdz> do the doc guys even want that responsibility?
<mako2> mdz: i guess we should ask
<sabdfl> what's the worst case?
<mdz> worst case is http://www.google.com/?q=secring.gpg
<elmo> *giggle*
<fabbione> that reminds me of... thom?
<fabbione> ;)
<mdz> er, http://www.google.com/search?q=secring.gpg
<sabdfl> why would a maintainer be able to change the keyring?
<elmo> sabdfl: they can't - but if their key is insecure, then our packages are vulnerable
<mako2> sabdfl: no, he's afraid they'll put their keyring somewhere whehere peopl can google it and download it
<mdz> mako2: well, I said that's the worst case :-)
<Kamion> that's an outside risk, but it's an example of general key management incompetence, which in its general form is common
<elmo> http://www.google.com/search?q=inurl%3Asecring.gpg
<mdz> elmo: yeah, that one
<mdz> whoever justin pryzby is, we wouldn't want his key in our keyring
<mako2> ok, so the danger is not that we can't trust the nm candidates, it's our job to make sure we can
<mako2> the danger is that we can't trust everyone who has their key :)
<Keybuk> yeah, anyone who manages to expose a private key like that should be shot
* Keybuk tickles thom playfully
<mdz> mako2: the question is whether we need to force people through that process in order to be an official documentation person
<sabdfl> i think it's reasonable to establish gpg practice understanding
<sabdfl> if that's a key requirement
<mdz> that is definitely a key requirement; it's the basis for our trust
<mako2> i think a keyring of maintainers is a Good Thing for reasons other than uploading packages
<mako2> voting, etc
<elmo> yeah, but we should probably have a separate keyring for uploaders
<sabdfl> the doc guys will need to be briefed and tested
<mako2> the documentation are not writing advertisemennet copy.. they're writing technical documentation.. they should be able to figure out how to use gpg and get some key safety :)
<sabdfl> elmo: why have a separate keyring?
<daniels> elmo: one for voters/et al, one for people who can upload
<daniels> er
<daniels> sabdfl: ^^
<daniels> sabdfl: so not everyone can upload libc6
<mdz> do we actually have any process in mind where we would hold a vote of the entire project?
<sabdfl> *cough* voting *cough*
* sabdfl wonders who ever considered democracy in these hallowed halls
<Kamion> mdz: cc/tb reelection
<sabdfl> confirmation
<mdz> Kamion: those are appointed positions, no?
<elmo> sabdfl: usual reasons: damage limitation, layered security, etc. - if the doc guys don't actually need their keyring, except once every two years or vote or something, they're much less likely to apply as-good-as-we-would-like security practices to their GPG key
<sabdfl> Kamion is (again) correct
<mako2> call it consensus or just identifying yourself :)
<sabdfl> elmo: but the doc guys are definitely going to be committing to the codebase, and that will require gpg keys
<sabdfl> once we have bazaar flying, with hct
<Kamion> mdz: hm, there was talk of having them confirmed by plebiscite of maintainers to start with
<sabdfl> yes, nominated y me, confirmed by a plebiscite (!)
* mako network is revived
<elmo> sabdfl: sure - but until we get there, I think we need separate keys.  and not all derivatives will be using upload-via-arch in any event, so we're going to have to deal with managing multiple "upload" keyrings anyways from an archive POV
<sabdfl> ok
<Kamion> sabdfl: (plebiscite is such a good word I just had to use it)
<sabdfl> but the question is whether we want to allow a doc person to upload packages
<elmo> sabdfl: <fascist-that-I-am>no.  if they upload packages, they're by definition not a doc person</>
<mdz> if they meet the criteria, sure
<mako> what about documentation packages? :)
<sabdfl> i think someone who understands gpg, and who has agreed not to touch code, should be allowed to do so
<mdz> someone who understands gpg, and knows their limits
<sabdfl> if they break the social agreement, we have a problem that can be solved simply
* mako nods
<sabdfl> perhaps we can switch modes post-freeze
<sabdfl> to minimise the risk of an accidental stuffup
<sabdfl> so the policy is "looser till freeze"
<sabdfl> all of this is just till we get bazaar / hct
<mdz> it is?
<mdz> it seems like we have the same issues with baz/hct
<sabdfl> but we can distinguish between commit and upload
<sabdfl> whereas now we cant
<mdz> but without someone reviewing the changes, they're pretty much equivalent
<sabdfl> the additional review is a disincentive to contribution
<sabdfl> being able to upload is a big motivator
<sabdfl> instant gratification
<mdz> I'm not really worried about folks who are comfortable working with gpg having commit access to write docs
<sabdfl> i really think we should acknowledge the doc team's contribution with maintainer status
<mdz> what I object to is making their official status contingent on gpg usage
<mdz> they should at least be able to decline that piece, and still be officially recognized
<sabdfl> so they can still vote
<sabdfl> but not have to deal with gpg
<sabdfl> that's fine by me
<sabdfl> it's at their option
<sabdfl> elmo, can you live with this?
<sabdfl> separate keyring for voting, contains additional keys of maintainers who choose not to upload
<mdz> there's no need to require gpg for voting, since they should be able to do it by logging into the website or similar
* mako happy with that
<sabdfl> also true
<elmo> sabdfl: yeah, if we can discourage gpg key use when it's not necessary, I'm all for it
<mdz> what it sounds like we're moving toward is an official contributor status
<mdz> that's someone who can't commit, but participates, and they have a voice
<sabdfl> except that the "can't commit" is at their option, thus far
<mdz> in oxford, we said that the contributor (with baz/hct) could be anyone
<mdz> that it didn't require official status
<sabdfl> only because bazaar will allow branching so easily
<mdz> right
<mdz> but a contributor could be someone with a vote
<sabdfl> ok, this is a new idea
<sabdfl> but a nice one
<mdz> distinguishing them from the rest of the planet, community-wise
<sabdfl> particularly for doc team, and community support people
<sabdfl> guys who make a huge contribution
<sabdfl> and in due course we'll have industrial karma to give clear indications of who gets that voice
<mako> i still am not too hot on the idea of having contributors and maintainers be different
<mako> i think it sets up a hierarchy with the doc people apparently being lower
<mako> it doesn't bother me if they haev a gpg key, or not.. it's the political and social distinction that i'm most worried about
<mdz> it's a meaningful infrastructural distinction, though
<mdz> and reflects the way the community actually works
<mdz> that's how we arrived at it in oxford
<mako> yes, but we also said at oxford that doc people should be able to be full maintainers :)
<mdz> sure, they should be able to be
<sabdfl> mako: this is nothing to stop a doc guy from being a maintainer
<sabdfl> it's a new idea, afaict
<sabdfl> so, to summarise, mdz shout if i have it wrong
<sabdfl> we develop the concept of the "voting community"
<sabdfl> this includes maintainers and people who are also given a vote because of a significant contribution in some other field
<mdz> we already established a hierarchy of contributor -> committer -> maintainer -> ..., with "committer" being the point at which strong authentication is required
<sabdfl> maintainership means "can trigger or upload a package release"
<sabdfl> committer means "can commit to a package"
<sabdfl> mdz: would you see the voters as being all committers then?
<sabdfl> i'm not so sure about that
<mdz> sabdfl: what I proposed in this meeting was that contributors be able to vote
<mdz> which provides an official, voting status which doesn't require strong authentication
<sabdfl> the only example we have of voting is confirmation of appointments to tech and community boards
<mdz> and gives a useful home for contributors who aren't ready/willing to accept the responsibility of commit access
<sabdfl> id like those voters to be limited to substantial contributors
<mdz> but who are valued members of the community who should have a voice
<sabdfl> i agree "substantial contribution" doesn't only mean code, and uploads
<sabdfl> but it is still different from "have sent in a few patches"
<mdz> I would think that anyone who makes regular, high-quality contributions would naturally become a committer
<sabdfl> thats not what we were discussing though
<mdz> so if what we want is for only substantial contributors to be able to vote, I think that would be committers
<sabdfl> i was trying to follow up on your thought that "voters" need not equal "maintainers"
<sabdfl> i'm not even comfortable with that
<sabdfl> because we might ultimately have committers with fairly narrow commit rights
<sabdfl> depending on how good we can get hct
<sabdfl> we might, for example, give upstream guys all commit rights in the packages that they upstream code lives in
<sabdfl> im not sure that should give them a say in who sits on your tech board
<sabdfl> vs, say, a doc guy who has put in a lot of work on the wiki and website
* mako nods
<mdz> what the website currently says is "a vote amongst the maintainers"
<mdz> I guess if that's the sort of thing we will be voting on, then yes, it should be more exclusive
<mako> all we need to figure out is how we are going to identify contributions that are meaningful and then recognize those with status. the detail of who can committ where and where seems like it might be a technical detail we don't need to take on fully
<sabdfl> that's the only process we have that involves a vote
<sabdfl> for the moment, i think the best plan is to make the big contributors maintainers
<sabdfl> and have them agree not to touch code
<sabdfl> so for the moment it's fairly binary
<mdz> and the issue I raised with that is that it places a fairly strong technical burden on them, i.e. key management
<sabdfl> (oh, and they can agree not to upload at all)
<sabdfl> but they still kep their vote
* mako agrees with sabdfl 
<sabdfl> later on, when we have better tools both for objective review of community participation, and code control, we can tune it
<mdz> so the proposed solution to that issue is to allow them to voluntarily decline commit privileges on their way to becoming a maintainer?
<sabdfl> if we had doubts, i suppose we could offer maintainership explicitly without upload capability
<mako> sivang: hey there
<sabdfl> but i would prefer that we simply test gpg knowledge, and if it's ok, let them have the option not to be in the upload keyring
<sabdfl> sivang: you'll want to read the logs of this meeting
<mako> mdz: that sounds reasonable
<mako> sivang: i can bring you up to speed aftewards as well
<sivang> sabdfl : so I've heared :)
<sabdfl> it's a simple way to get started
<pitti> mako, sabdfl: I already told him the short-short version
<sabdfl> ok
<sabdfl> can i hear back from elmo, mako, kamion on this:
<sabdfl>  - we'll allow maintainers not to be in the upload keyring if they don't really need to be
<sabdfl>  - we'll approve some non-code contributors as maintainers, so they have a vote where it counts
<sabdfl>  - when we have hct / bazaar we can fine tune these
<sabdfl> ?
<elmo> works for me
<mako> that sounds fine
<Kamion> ok by me
<sivang> mako : thanks
<sabdfl> done
<sabdfl> on that basis, i think hornbeck and alexander poslavsky and enrico would be candidates for maintainership
* sivang regrets for missing the CC meeting. seems some really cool thing been decided.
<sabdfl> anyone want to weigh in on those three?
<Kamion> Enrico's a reasonable Debian developer, he might not be limited to just docs
* mako nods
<Kamion> but those three are certainly fine AFAIAC
<sabdfl> ok
<Kamion> Enrico's not on MaintainerCandidates?
<mdz> nope
<sabdfl> he's the doc team secretary
<sabdfl> seems sane to offer him the upload option, and a vote
<mako> yeah, absolutely
<sabdfl> can we move through the list quite quickly now?
<mako> fine with me
<Kamion> please
<sabdfl> let's just focus on establishing if there are people we know well enough to ack immediately
<sabdfl> others can go through the process
<sabdfl> saravanan reju?
<sabdfl> raju
<mako> don't know..
<mako> process
<sabdfl> ok, full process
<sabdfl> john levin
<sabdfl> i don't know him
<sabdfl> anyone in favour?
<mdz> doc team guy
<Kamion> I've seen him around, but process I think
<mako> i know him from traffic on the doc list and such
<sabdfl> ok, full process
<sabdfl> martin krafft?
<mako> he seems to be active but definitely a doc guy
<sabdfl> full process
<sabdfl>  Darren Critchley
<mako> full process
<sabdfl>  David Walker
<mdz> talked to him, process
<sabdfl> Marco Bonetti
* mako nods
<sabdfl> nods what?
<mako> that was to the last comment
<sabdfl>  Luke Yelavich
<mako> marco: i think i've met him but am not familiar with his contributions
<Kamion> he's the accessibility guy, Jeff's been talking to him I think?
<mako> luke: i don't know luke except a little bit of mailing list ubuntu stff
<sabdfl> i don't know luke
<Kamion> process, though
<sabdfl>  Diego Andrs Asenjo
<sabdfl> process?
<sabdfl> Christoph Haas
<Kamion> Christoph> process, but would expect him to get through quickly
<sabdfl> ok
* mako doesn
<mako> 't know either
<mdz> who will have responsibility for notifying anyone who just became a maintainer?
<Kamion> he's the mentors.debian.net guy
<sabdfl> i'll send them a mail
<sabdfl> so let's be clear, i have:
<sabdfl> thibault varene
<sabdfl> alexander pos
<sabdfl> john hornbeck
<sabdfl> mathias urlichs
<sabdfl> that's it
<sabdfl> i'll send an email to -devel
<sabdfl> and to them
<mdz> you mentioned enrico zini earlier
<sabdfl> yes, enrico too, but since he didn't put himself on the page i'll check with him first
<mdz> ok
<mako> sounds good
<sabdfl> ok
<sabdfl> are we done on the appointments front?
<sabdfl> let's talk about community member sponsorship to the conf
<mdz> ok
<sabdfl> i think we can sponsor 10 people for travel and board, and 10 for board in each week, separately
<sabdfl> so a total of 30 people
<sabdfl> 10 get travel and board if they are willing to come for a full week
<sabdfl> 20 more get a week of board covered, if they want to get themselves there
<sabdfl> we have an internal wiki page, for internal nominations
<sabdfl> but i think we should also ask community members who are keen to sign up somewhere
<mdz> there is a page in the public wiki for that
<mako> mdz: sort of
<sabdfl> ok, has a mail gone to the lists inviting people to sign up?
<mdz> I believe the announcement of the conference included a bit about that
<silbs> yes, an email annoucement went out
<sabdfl> ok, let's announce the sponsorship separately
<sabdfl> we have already approved quite a few
<sabdfl> mako, will you coordinate that email with silbs?
<mdz> http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2004-November/000913.html
<mako> yeah, i sent the mail
<mako> sabdfl: yes sure
<sabdfl> great
<sabdfl> that email didn't say (a) where to sign up and (b) that we have some sponsorship available
<mako> sabdfl: where to sign up for sponsorship?
<sabdfl> mako: yes
<sabdfl> maybe also link to the mail archive from the web site home page conference headline
<sabdfl> so people see ont he home page that sponsorship is available
<sabdfl> Kamion, elmo, mako: any other business?
<mako> nope
<elmo> not from me
<Kamion> nope
<sabdfl> mdz, guests?
<sabdfl> ok, take that as a no
<silbs> on sponsorship - will nominees and decisions be public?
<sabdfl> thanks everybody
<sabdfl> i'm easy, i think it would be a good idea to send a mail saying who we were sponsoring
<silbs> okay. We need to make sure it is fair - a deadline for signing up so it isn't just a first come, first serve, etc.
<silbs> I'll work it with Mako
<sabdfl> ok
<sabdfl> thanks everybody
<sabdfl> workrave time
<sabdfl> meeting closed
<cenerentola> hi there
<cenerentola> hi there
#ubuntu-meeting 2005-11-21
<whitesoft> Hello
<whitesoft> Still here?
<whitesoft> is any body here?
<whitesoft> whitesoft is RolandoBlanco
<whitesoft> Waitting for the council
<MarioMeyer> what council?
<whitesoft> Hello Mario
<whitesoft> CommunityCouncilAgenda
<whitesoft> CommunityCouncil
<MarioMeyer> well i can't help you
<bmonty_laptop> two more packages and all of the packages that start with b are merged (minus bzr, I'm not touching that)
<Kamion> whitesoft: wrong week, dude :)
<JaneW> **Reminder** Edubuntu Update Meeting here in 4 minutes
<JaneW> **Reminder** Edubuntu Update Meeting here in 1 minutes
* JaneW is turning into a bot...
* ogra waits for the 30 sec announcement
<ogra> and for the 10 sec countdown :)
<JaneW> heh
<JaneW> hi all
<Katsumoto> :)
<JaneW> we havent had a meeting since before UBZ
<JaneW> so several weeks now
<JaneW> there seem to be quite a few new faces in #edubuntu which is nice to see
<JaneW> I hope that means ppl are installing and using edubuntu
<JaneW> We didn;t publish an agenda for this week's meeting
<ogra> short report from the technical side ?
<JaneW> but there are some notes up from the last edubuntu meeting we had, which was held at UBZ http://wiki.edubuntu.org/MeetingRecords
<pips1> ogra: yes please! .-)
<JaneW> So yes, if ogra can let us know where we stand technically, that would be a great start
<ogra> i have implemented the thin client sound stuff last week, its working perfectly fine out of the box, no user interaction needed ...
<ogra> (even isf the spec needs to get updated)
<JaneW> ogra: that's awesome :))
<ogra> i worked a bit on the multiarch stuff, but havent solved the powerpc error yet
<JaneW> ogra: does the spec need to be updated?
<ogra> yes, its not approved yet 
<mhz_shower> hi
<ogra> but the implementation is already done *g*
<ogra> student-control-panel saw its first upload, its in the archive now to ply with :)
<ogra> i also created a bzr archive, so everyone who likes to work on it can just branch
<JaneW> ogra: LOL, ok mention that in the spec... who is the approver?
<ogra> mdz
<mhz> .oO(excellent)
<ogra> he mouthly approved all the ltsp stuff already ...
<JaneW> ogra: ok, is it submitted for approval?
<ogra> but i need to get the text right :)
<ogra> yes, all ltsp specs are ...
<JaneW> ogra: ok do the last tweaks and let me know I'll ask him to approve
<ogra> i'll do it today 
<JaneW> ogra: can we do a similar page to this for dapper? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EdubuntuOneDotZeroRoadmap
<pips1> ogra: how is the new launchpad spec process ? is it working well for the developers ? (experiences from UBZ ?) 
<ogra> pips1, yup :)
<JaneW> ogra: we may need to complete this too, and link to all relevant specs, unless you just want to use launchpad blocks and dependecies for this... https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EdubuntuRoadmap
<ogra> i have my probs since i'm not good in writing the stuff down before i played with it... but thats not related to the spec process, rather a personal thing 
<JaneW> mhz: don't foret mhz_getting_dressed please! ;0
<ogra> JaneW, we should probably just link to the dapper release schedule... having our own roadmap confused people last time 
<mhz> JaneW: i won't get dressed. Maybe I get some edubuntu CD's!!
<pips1> is there going to be an "overview table" of specs in the wiki as there used to be, or will everything happen in launchpad now ?
<JaneW> ogra: yes our timeing must be the same, but don;t we want to list our items separately?
<ogra> i didnt plan much changes on the desktop anyway, my main focus for this release will be ltsp and the artwork (branding) package
<JaneW> ogra: ok, as long as we can easilly track progress and make sure we are on track that's fine
* mhz would like to help with artwork but he has some doubts
<JaneW> mhz: what kind of doubts?
<mhz> JaneW: hmm, maybe not relevant 100% for this meeting
<ogra> mhz, the idea is to have 2 or 3 choices and to be able to dpkg-reconfigure the package for lower, mid and highschool grades
<mhz> yup
<mhz> I am aware
<pips1> is there going to be an "overview table" of specs in the ubuntu wiki as there used to be, or will everything happen in launchpad now ?
<mhz> it's just that the 'actual hands-on drawing' i am bad at. So I usually design the ideas and pass it on Pablo Noel, but he's not so motivated now :(
<ogra> JaneW, since all dapper deadlines apply for us as well, i'd think the dapper schedule is working for us
<JaneW> pips1: we decided the table didn;t work well, so it's in launchpad now...
<ogra> pips1, its all launchpad
<pips1> ah, ok, thanks
<ogra> mhz, motivate him :)
<JaneW> pips1: the table view is here https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/dapper/+specstable
<mhz> JaneW: and the Tecnocimiento gang is more for the work for Edubuntu Chilean Tour. We have very limited resources and so we must use them extremely well
<JaneW> mhz: the issue we have is that until we can show that we have a large, lively and particpatory community we will not get more official support
<pips1> JaneW: cool, I hadn't discovered that view before !
<mhz> JaneW: i know, hence my dilema
<ogra> mhz, not only yours 
<JaneW> mhz: oliver's talk at UBZ impressed management and they were surprised at the growth and interest we achieved so far, but will be watching to see what we do in this cycle
<ogra> JaneW, oh, nobody told me ...
* ogra didnt like his talk
<JaneW> mhz: I can fairly much guarantee that we'll get our CDs if we produce a good edubuntu dapper - which we are already on track for
<ogra> oh, yes, i forgot .... we have usplash on the thin cients working ;) it will even look good ...
<JaneW> so basically we are being treated the same as kubuntu
<ogra> not really
<mhz> ogra: I know, I am not crying. Please do not think so (that's why I said "maybe not 100% relevant for the meeting) :)
<ogra> kubuntu is far ahead of us
* pips1 makes a mental note that the website/wiki should contain a section about "Edubuntu in action"
<JaneW> yes it started way before us
<JaneW> pips1: please add it :)
<ogra> yup and we'll never have their momentum
<ogra> they just have a way bigger userbase
<JaneW> ogra: but the point is they were a fringe project, but mnow that there is continuted and growing demand and interest and participation they are being taken seriously
<ogra> the main target for us is still to get the k12 users aboard 
<JaneW> our situation is a bit different, but we have to prove the demand and interest and garner participation before we can show that we have something worth investing in
<ogra> but jammcq and sbalneav are doing great advertizing work in #ltsp
<mhz> JaneW: IMHO, Edubuntu is much more aimed to social contribution than technical IT stuff. Therefore, I fear Canonical doesn't see us "progressing" that much as Kubuntu
<mhz> social contrib = improving and providing tools for education
<JaneW> mhz: indeed
<pips1> ogra: kubuntu is for individuals who can just go ahead and use it on their workstation, laptop on a personal basis, Edubuntu needs more commitment from a school...
<ogra> mhz, canonical sees that, but they also see its a niche product we build
<ogra> pips1, exactly ... and canonical is well aware of that...
<mhz> ogra: good point
<ogra> but we still have not enough users/testers
<JaneW> mhz: also ogra and I bleated about CDs and the big demand, but in the end only you added to the CD request proposal page on the wiki... so it didn;t look good
<mhz> ogra: maybe you have just given an argument to convince Pablo :)
<mhz> JaneW: LOL
<ogra> everybody was crying for teachertool... the source is available for hacking on it, but i havent seen one checkout from the bzr archive yet
<JaneW> mhz: if we can keep showing the excellent work of Pablo and results of surveys (as you mentioned before) etc, that will all strengthen our argument
<kjcole> ogra
<JaneW> so don't be dispondent, it's early days for us still.
<kjcole> ogra, were the people screaming about teachertool savvy about using bzr?
<pips1> I think a great many schools (in Europe at least) have a Windows network set up already, and then you need to really convince people why they should switch, it's a different story if a school doesn't have a computer lab set up at all...
<kjcole> ogra, (I'm just getting my feet wet with bzr myself.)
<JaneW> ogra: I think that highlights another of our issues, we are attracting ppl that want and need our solution, but can't necesarily help to develop it (actuall hacking I mean)
<ogra> kjcole, no idea, but there is also a source package in dapper ;)
<ogra> JaneW, exactly... and we need more developers ...
* highvoltage arrives
<JaneW> ogra: so we need to try to attract developers
<JaneW> highvoltage: hello
<JaneW> highvoltage: wanna be an edubuntu developer?
<mhz> ogra: so far, as I said once, Chilean people are very 'special' (sometimes I wanna kick their butts). Schools and universities are not well interested on IT solutions because MANY local biz have screwd the edu sector. So, until I can get some minimum image/merchandising (not asking canonical for, only from local supporters) it is difficult they trust on something made by community
<JaneW> highvoltage: or do you know anyone that does?
<ogra> student-control-panel only has basic functionallity now ... i was hoping with releasing the source that some people would jump on it ...
<highvoltage> ogra: does sounds work from flash applications as well?
<ogra> probably i'm just to impatient
<ogra> highvoltage, it should ... we use libesd ...
<JaneW> mhz: the conferecne packs are coming together, has Marilize responded to you yet?
<mhz> JaneW: I agree, that's why my doubts are concerning resources. Asking Pablo means I'll have to spend money on him (not much, but some) Otherwise, I could use same money to rent a place and demo edubuntu to at least 50 teachers at once, with cookies and coffee :D
<mhz> JaneW: nope
<highvoltage> JaneW: i want to be, but i'm having trouble with even the motu stuff.
<highvoltage> the motu guys are great though.
<JaneW> highvoltage: and we aren't? *pout*
<JaneW> ok how are we going to solve this problem?
<mhz> ogra: you are not impatient, you're wise
<ogra> highvoltage, improve your python skills, hack on student-control-panel ;)
<highvoltage> JaneW: you're fantastic!
<highvoltage> ogra: that i'll gladly do.
<highvoltage> JaneW: but yes, it's a definate yes.
<JaneW> the ppl we have are over commited already and need to work in paid jobs to support themselves
<mhz> unfortunately!
<pips1> highvoltage: what's difficult part of becoming a motu, from your point of view?
<mhz> :D
<kjcole> JaneW: Here, here. (I wasn't even at the meeting where I got committed to the Cookbook.) ;-)
<JaneW> how can we find willing ppl who have skills and time and want to help?
* ogra isnt overcommitted this time ... but edubuntu will suffer if nobody steps up to fill the gaps
<kjcole> (Ooops.  s/Here, here/Hear, hear/)
<JaneW> kjcole: hehe, *grin*
<mhz> JaneW: Edubuntu Tours (evangelizing)
<JaneW> kjcole: you still liking it?
* sivang wouldn't mind to help whereever he can, however he has dayjob commitments as well
<ogra> JaneW, the german ubuntu LoCo goes to 15 conferences this year, i'll be on some of them holding talks about edubuntu ...
<mhz> JaneW: assigning point
<mhz> JaneW: assigning points
<mhz> points = prizes
<kjcole> Still liking the cookbook...  However, am unfamiliar with docbook and bzr.  But learning.
<ogra> so evangelizing should help a bit ...
<sivang> (talking about non evengelizing work ;-))
<JaneW> kjcole: if you finish the cook book I may be compelled to bake a cake...http://www.flickr.com/photos/13916877@N00/52389874/
* mhz LOVES cakes!
* ogra doesnt like virtual cake ...
<JaneW> think we could get the skills and interest we need if we target students?
<mhz> lol
<ogra> its hard to bite :)
* Simira neither...
<highvolt1ge> sorry, having some connectivity troubles this side.
* pips1 makes a mental note that there should be a "how to evangelize edubuntu" page in the wiki...
<ogra> pips1, ++
<mhz> ogra: at least we can say it looks good (maybe taste does not) :D
<JaneW> ogra: sorry... I didn't DARE ask the UBZ waiters if I could use the kitchen, they were mean!
<ogra> lol
<mhz> JaneW: YES!, hence the Edubuntu Tours
<JaneW> pips1: I hope these mental notes are your To Do list - hint hint
<mhz> students can easily get comitted esp. when they see their work is being officially released
<JaneW> to me it's a chicken and egg thing
<pips1> JaneW: they are 
<mhz> I am building a database of over 1500 schools
<mhz> chilean schools of course
<JaneW> do we want to evangelise before we have dev help, or will we get dev help by evangelising?
<JaneW> pips1: awesome thanks :)))
<ogra> JaneW, the latter 
<mhz> JaneW: good point. the latter
<ogra> hey spacey
<spacey> hey :)
<kjcole> Personal perspective: I work at Gallaudet University, which is a university for deaf and hard of hearing.
<JaneW> pips1: your wiki organise page was very helpful and informative btw
<kjcole> On the same campus as the university, we have a primary and a secondary school for deaf/HoH.
<mhz> kjcole: wow! sounds interesitng yet more difficult
<JaneW> ogra: ok well then we must just get the word out where ever and whenever
<mhz> exactly!
<kjcole> Every time I try to sell them on something like Linux, they argue that they have "special" needs for "special" software, that they're convinced cannot be found anywhere else.
<ogra> JaneW, thats my plan (at least for germany where i can travel relatively cheap on my own cost)
<sivang> ogra, JaneW : When do you expect to need to application names changes and how much are you going to be blocked by upstream with that?
<pips1> JaneW: thanks, so far only highvoltage was able to comment in the wiki, though.. oh and henrik!
<highvoltage> JaneW: ping
<kjcole> However, when I try to pin them down on those "special" programs, I get zip.
<ogra> sivang, i dont think wee need this ... 
<mhz> JaneW: that's reminds me that I have found some inconsitancies between Manifesto and actual design work
<ogra> sivang, the initial idea was to have a menu task driven profile but that didnt include renaming apps ...
<mhz> kjcole: i know there are some good work for those special needs
<ogra> sivang, thats something edubuntu cant solve, its a ubuntu thing
<JaneW> pips1: well since they put what's there together laregly they would have an interest in commenting ;)
<sivang> ogra: ah, ok
<JaneW> highvoltage: pong
<sivang> noted
<mhz> pips1: what page?
<JaneW> sivang: I don;t know, but it would help to have something more descriptive...
<pips1> mhz: the wiki pages about the edubuntu website plan, I think you subscribed to them already :-)
<pips1> http://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuWebsitePlan
<mhz> JaneW: descriptive = categorized?
<highvoltage> JaneW: sorry, my connection is terrible
<mhz> oh, yes. I am subscribed
<ogra> kjcole, there is a acessibility project going on, lets see how much technology we can adopt from them... should make it more attractive ...
<highvoltage> seems to be fine again now.
<sivang> ogra: so basically, they are looking at adding a another menu, that just has different grouping and descriptions for the launched applications?
<mhz> pips1: believe me, it's listed on my ToEdit list :)
<highvoltage> JaneW: i didn't get anything after the current people having high loads until just about a minute ago.
<ogra> sivang, task driven ... a special menu for math classes, another for biology etc ...
<mhz> pips1: i even commented something on #moin last week
<ogra> sivang, but thats out of scope for dapper ...
<pips1> mhz: right! You are definitely doing a good job evangelizing moin ;-)
<ogra> for dapper we'll have sabayon and the opportunity to make your own profiles ...
<JaneW> pips1: where's your other page now? The one with the colour tags?
<mhz> sivang: ogra: but at least, having all apps. listed on a wiki page, and grouped by categories would help
<ogra> mhz, sure
* mhz doesnt need it, thoug
<mhz> it is just for teachers and talks puposes
<mhz> pips1: hehehe, thx
<pips1> JaneW: that page is linked from the one I posted above
<JaneW> mhz: no categorized to but descriptive as in not 'Kig' but rather ' short description of what app does' it seems we can;t change this easilly though
<mhz> pips1: but still most people insist on SubPages/SubPages etc
<mhz> :)
<pips1> JaneW: I think you are talking about http://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuSiteOfficialContent
<sivang> ogra: ah , I see. could be interesting to work on that for dapper+1, indeed.
<ogra> sivang, definately
<mhz> JaneW: oooohh, right. I am not sure if we 'need' soemthing like that. On the other hand, it is good people get used to application names
<ogra> sivang, but we'll need a detailed spec ... we have none yet since it wasnt in scope for dapper
<mhz> however, i do see the purpose behind descriptions
<ogra> JaneW, thats what the tooltip normally does
<ogra> but KDE and GNOME have different views about what id descriptive and what not
<ogra> so getting KIG to have a gnome compliant description can get hard for example
<sivang> right
<mhz> JaneW: our manifesto states 'freedom' as something of enormous importance. However, all artwork I have seen (except Cd slips) is made with and for Propietary applications :(
<mhz> (and probably from NON-ubuntu boxes)
<sivang> ogra: do you think something like what is needed could be achived without changing the current .desktop and the menu structure systems? 
<mhz> ogra: another reason to use lighter desktops maybe. :D Menus are piece of cake (AFAIK)
<ogra> sivang, i think using predefined sabayon profiles for the different tasks is the way to go... i dont think we should fiddle with .desktop files if avoidable
<ogra> mhz, but i loose the help of the distro team and the ability to predict that the desktop is 100% sane for release ... 
<ogra> both i can get only from gnome in ubuntu
<spacey> yes @ predefined sabayon profiles
<spacey> that is a good way
<mhz> ogra: sivang: but tweaking those, will that favour teachers trying to have K12 Menus, Teens Menus, HighSchool Menus, etc?
<mhz> ogra: good point
<ogra> JaneW, still alive ? 
<spacey> mhz, you can just make different profiles with each different kind of menu
<spacey> with their own aim
<ogra> we can ship a handful of default profiles as templates for tweakage :)
<mhz> spacey: good idea. Any wiki page how?
<spacey> mhz, basicly anything you can do with smeg AFAIK
* mhz will google for smeg :)
<spacey> mhz, its in your menu
<spacey> as "applications menu editor"
<ogra> mhz, right click the "applications" menu 
<spacey> under applications -> systemtools
<mhz> spacey: ok, then I'll boot into GNOME (I use Wmaker)
<spacey> ogra, even more easy :)
<ogra> both is fine ;)
<mhz> okidoki, thx
<sivang> ogra: interesting, sbayon won't run without sudo :)
<ogra> yup
<ogra> its setting system defaults
<sivang> ogra: oh goody, starting is Xnested session now
<ogra> yes
<sivang> ogra: after it has the sessions running, do I just change the menu layout and descriptions, what do I do afterwareds?
<ogra> you can modify the template desktop to your needs ... thats how you create profiles with it
<ogra> just save afterwards ... and assign users to the profile
<sivang> cool, then all we do is create thoe temples, and then ship them in a package, and have some sort of GUI to assign users to?
<ogra> sadly it doesnt work via ssh tunneling, so its not usable on thin clients yet
<mhz> ohhhhhhhhh
<sivang> bad :-/
<ogra> yup
<ogra> Xnests fault 
<mhz> now you say it??? :D
<mhz> lol
<ogra> thats why we didnt ship it in breezy ...
<sivang> ogra: but it could be a good solution for shipping the master package for each client
<ogra> it was on my plan
<ogra> s/plan/list
<sivang> not that stable ., either. seems stuck now
<pips1> JaneW: I created a new page here : http://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuSiteCommunityContent
* pips1 has discovered the 'check spelling' feature of moin wiki
<kjcole> Well all, time for me to finish trying to wake up and pretend to go in to work.
<mhz> kjcole: could you wiki a page with the special needs and priorities?
<kjcole> (I'd looked before at the Accessibility stuff.  Didn't see anything deafness-related but will look again.  Will put something up in Edubuntu's wiki if I don't find a similar page.)
<pips1> got to go.. cu
<ogra> kjcole, talk to dholbach, he's doing the accessibility stuff together with hno73
<mhz> kjcole: thx
<ogra> he will know about the set off apps that are available
<mhz> kjcole: and please add info about #of students, some stats
<mhz> etc
<mhz> it may be useful to prepare some MarketingPaln
<mhz> and therefore evangelising
<flint> good morning...
<mhz> morning
<kjcole> What's good about it? ;-)
<flint> I am no longer living in Washington DC.  I am now in Montpelier, the capital of the state of Vermont!
<flint> good to hear from you kevin!
<flint> has ollie or jane made appearances?  You have a reason to inquire about the goodness of the morning, our associates have been up for hours
<mhz> flint: is that betta?
<flint> I look out over mountains through which the mighty Winnoski (the local river) courses... to summarize, indeed, big time!
<ogra> flint, seems Janes line just died
<flint> One bad line deserves another, lemme see...
<sivang> flint: Hi there, I didn't realize back at UBZ that you were canadia, are you?
<ogra> sivang, vermont is US 
<flint> not quite in canada, I am about 25 miles from the canadian border.
<sivang> ogra: oops, I'm missing few geography lessons :-)
<flint> sivang, the idea here is that i can get to the canadian border (and across it) damn quickly :^)
<sivang> yep
<flint> Vermont even here in the capital has an active sucessionist party.  
<flint> the motto is "Save a deer shoot a flatlander"
<flint> they feel that Vermont is just as big as texas, if you flatten the state out.
<flint> ollie, are these bad lines?
<flint> actually now while jane is offline might be a good time to continue to laugh about the little phillipino girl on the desktop
<ogra> flint, i meant her connection :)
<flint> I really do not give a rats ass myself about the damn graphic, but the edubuntu list had real folks trying to implement
<flint> I know, and I feel dirty :^)  is she back to yell at me?
<kjcole> And on that note, time for me to toddle off to work. Have fun gentlemen... You too, Flint. ;-)
<flint> anyway, the idea that I counted like 4 folks actually trying to implement this product in classrooms reminded me of the responsibility we have
<flint> kevin, thanks for stopping in!  enjoy DC.
<ogra> bye kjcole 
<mhz> http://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuStudyPackages
<mhz> I will add much more info pretty soon there
<ogra> flint, marks idea was to have a professional company designing the next wllpapers/splashscreens for us ...
<mhz> ogra: thx for the effort of teaching how to package them :D
<ogra> mhz, id didnt make any effort yet ;)
<ogra> s/id/i
<mhz> ogra: could we be hired to design them?
<flint> This takes all the pain out of the process..
<ogra> mhz, he wants a company for all three distros as i understood, but i'll ask
<mhz> Pablo and Andrea (both designers) will be VERY motivated
<mhz> plus I can kick their butts whenever I need to :D
<ogra> flint, additionally i sent a mail to the ML that shows how i want to implement it ... you'll be easily able to reconfigure the artwork to another grade
<ogra> ... if needed
<fabbione> hey flint !
<mhz> ogra: I can even ask and sum up Pablo and Andrea resume / portafolio
<flint> inded Don Fabio bon journo!
<ogra> mhz, let me talk to mark first... and even to JaneW
<mhz> okidoki
<fabbione> ehe
<flint> the whole graphic thing is only amusing.  it is not the code.
<ogra> yes, but if people have a point there, we'll have to react
* sivang personally think the Edubuntu artwork is really cool.
<sivang> (the current one, that is)
<ogra> and i think the approach to ship three different choices of artwork is the right way to go ...
<flint> moving on, I think that Mauricio has done a good thing with this wkiki
<ogra> (probably even a fourth one for community contributed artwork)
<mhz> I rarely see the point of discussing about GUI's but I understand this time we're in need of more people to help us
<flint> sivang, if we were art geeks this would matter, but we are ubuntu geeks...
<mhz> flint: who Mauricio?
<ogra> mhz, there are not many mauricios in this channel i guess
<ogra> :)
<flint> mhz, I thought that your name was at the bottom o the old wiki
<mhz> ogra: I thought it was a typo
<flint> sorry :^)
<flint> got to learn to tyep, only course I ever flunked...
<flint> mhz, ever hear of scorm?
<mhz> ogra: and this is the 1st time I see 'Mauricio' written in IRC
<flint> this is a tough room...
<mhz> scorm, not the nick right? the edu stuff?
<flint> mhz, you are on the mark
<flint> the educational stuff is a way of packaging course material.  Is it applicable to this project?
<flint> oh the Mark, I get it! most amusing :^)
<mhz> flinthehehehe
<mhz> flint: I have never tried it
<flint> often I type for my own entertainment
<mhz> but it must be tried out
<mhz> flint: I have noticed
<flint> mhz, a harsh but justified comment :^) I want to look into this and if the add allows put the results on your wiki 
<mhz> yup
<mhz> flint: I appreciate as much help as possible
<mhz> esp. because this packaging is one the strong point for Edubuntu Chielan Tour to get some funds :)
<mhz> Chilean
<flint> mhz, the real nub to work i believe is how to get a scorm coerced into a deb.
<mhz> hehehe
<mhz> indeed
<mhz> hence I propose to aim at the tools edubuntu comes with
<mhz> i.e.: Keduca
<mhz> we can create files for it
<mhz> KIG, too
<mhz> etc.
<mhz> we have to identify which applications (default ones, first) can use files we create
<mhz> and then test those files as packages
<mhz> then we could worry about non default apps
<mhz> such scorm
<mhz> flint: what do you think?
<flint> mhz, I completely agree 
<mhz> educool!
<mhz> :D
<mhz> also, flint
<mhz> maybe you could help us with desingning a survey
<mhz> we think we need to identify profiles
<flint> mhz, scorm is not an application, it is a standard for packaging course material...
<flint> mhz, check into it.
<mhz> of people who is reticent to ICT, people who will actually evangelise for us, etc
<mhz> flint: I know. sorry for my spanish thinking when I write english. scorm is standrad
<mhz> yes
<mhz> we can worry about apps. that follow the standard. is that the way in english?
<flint> mhz, I will delve into keduca when I get my lab re setup here in Vermong.  Instead of a survey, how about an SLA?
<mhz> SLA?
<mhz> flint: ogra: should we move onto #edubuntu?
<flint> mhz, the deal with standards is that there are so many to choose from in this absurd world.
<mhz> and leave the channel available
<mhz> flint: LOL, indeed
<ogra_> note that i'd like to replace the kde stuff over time ...
<mhz> we make it complex
<flint> i thought that the meeting was supposed to be here today
<ogra_> (if gnome apps with similar functionallity show up)
<mhz> flint: afaik, the meeting started 2 hours ago (almost)
<flint> ollie is this so?  I thought the meeting started at 08:00 EST 12:00 UTC
<ogra_> 12:00 UTC
<ogra_> ogra@honk:~/dapper-xss/xscreensaver-4.23 $ date -u
<ogra_> Mi Nov 16 13:44:56 UTC 2005
<flint> which is please god tell me 08:00 EST
<ogra_> its 1h 45min ago
<flint> never was too good with schedules.  Then this meeting starts at 07:00 EDT?
<Kamion> <cjwatson@cairhien ~>$ date -u -d '12:00 UTC'
<Kamion> Wed Nov 16 12:00:00 UTC 2005
<Kamion> <cjwatson@cairhien ~>$ TZ=EST date -d '12:00 UTC'
<Kamion> Wed Nov 16 07:00:00 EST 2005
<ogra_> hah
<ogra_> DST victim :)
<flint> god help me!  even earlier!!!  I will fix my clock for next week. sorry 
<flint> mhz, SLA is Service Level Agreement.  It is a formal statement of what Edubuntu offers to the Educational Institution.
<mhz> oohhh
<mhz> ineresting
<mhz> very much
<mhz> also, i think there's a standard for User Level with ICT
<flint> The idea here is to make it possible for edubuntu to be acceped into the educational environment, and believe me these folks love well written paperwork.
<mhz> puagggkkk!
<flint> mhz, exactly
* mhz hates paperwork
<mhz> flint: 'show me the code' unfortunately is not applied to institutions :(
<flint> anyway I will see you all next week at god help me 07:00 EDT
<mhz> flint: so, shall we move on to #edubuntu?
<flint> mhz, I will but I need coffee now.  be there in about 30 minutes.
* mhz goes back to #edubuntu
<ogra_> ok, so lets call this meeting closed then... smms JaneW's line didnt come up again
<ogra_> *seems
<mhz> yup
<highvoltage> meeting over?
<Riddell> yes
<highvoltage> Riddell: i got the "jonathan" launchpad account :P
<mhz> JaneW: we closed
<mhz> :D
<JaneW> :(
#ubuntu-meeting 2005-11-22
<daniels> i might be a little bit late, just heading back home now
<JaneW> daniels: ok, as long as you are there, or send an e-mail update to me at the very least - kthxbye
<fabbione> hey JanC 
<fabbione> UFFF
<fabbione> hey JaneW 
<JaneW> hey fabbione 
<JaneW> fabbione: I worked in a large compnay that had a Jan Weideman (e-mail autocompletion was a NIGHTMARE there) ;)
<fabbione> amen
<pitti> hi
<slomo_> hi pitti
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:robitaille] : Agendas: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingAgendas | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event  | Logs: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/  |  17 Nov  08:00 UTC:  Dapper Development Status | 18 Nov 14:00 UTC: DocTeam | 22 Nov 22:00 UTC:  Community Council | 23 Nov 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu
<fabbione> GOOOOOOOOOOD MORNING VIETNAM!
<mdz> good morning
<mdz> let's get started
<mdz> is everyone here?
<JaneW> hi all
* fabbione raises his hand
<Keybuk> _o/
<JaneW> ok I have opened a spreadsheet to tabulate all the comments
* pitti waves
<Kamion> morning
* hunger is just listening in.
<seb128> hi
<dholbach> good morning
<mdz> mvo,doko,infinity,Riddell,Mithrandir,Diziet,BenC,ogra: ping
<infinity> pong
<JaneW> mdz: daniels said he'll be here but a little late
* zakame listens while waiting for linphone source to complete
<mdz> JaneW: * daniels_mobile (n=mobil_63@midgaard.ntnu.nu) has joined #ubuntu-meeting
<dholbach> will ring mvo
<JaneW> oh there he is...
* pitti will phone doko
* fabbione will call Mithrandir 
<mdz> Kamion: would you chase Ian?
<slomo_> hi everybody
<JaneW> where's ogra?
<dholbach> i will phone him
<doko_> pong
<dholbach> mvo will be here in some seconds
<Riddell> hi
<mdz> these meetings are going to be strictly time-limited so it is important that everyone be here on time
<JaneW> mdz: I see desrt has a high priority goal, are we going to 'make' him attend too?
<Keybuk> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/dapper/+specs
<Keybuk> ^ that's the "goal list", right?
<mdz> Keybuk: I wish it were
<JaneW> this view is easier to scan through... https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/dapper/+specstable#
<mdz> I started creating it there, but then discovered that any random launchpad user could add things to it
<JaneW> mdz: shall we use a dreaded wiki table?
<JaneW> mdz: or wait for your bug to be fixed
<Kamion> mdz: will try
<mdz> JaneW: I don't think we can wait for further spec tracker fixes
<dholbach> ogra's on his way too
<mdz> JaneW: I'll create a wiki page for now
<pitti> mdz: also, it is missing some specs, like hide-admin-tools-to-users
* mvo appologizes for being late
<mdz> pitti: hence "started"
<JaneW> mdz: ok, I can check it against launchpad to see if it changes much
<Kamion> no reply from Ian's phone
<infinity> pitti : Stuff needs to be assigned a target release to show up in the table...
<fabbione> same for Mithrandir 
<ogra> moin
<pitti> infinity: I see
<mdz> fabbione: same = no reply?
<fabbione> yeps
<fabbione> probably he is on the way to the office
<fabbione> and he doesn't hear the phone
<JaneW> while the phone stuff is happening
<mdz> ok, we can't wait longer
<mdz> JaneW: please make a note to follow up with ian, tollef and ben
<JaneW> what I need, is the list of goals with assignees, and then also the estimated developer days for each goal
<mdz> yes, over the next week you need to review your assigned specs and try to estimate the amount of time that each will take
<mdz> of course these will be rough (sometimes very rough) estimates, and that is OK
<JaneW> there is a field for this in the spec header now. Also we need all known dependencies included. Please could you all fill this in, so I can attempt to make a gantt chart from them.
<mdz> but it is important that we have some idea of small vs. medium vs. large
<fabbione> hmmm there are none of my assigned specs in the +spectable#
<JaneW> the time estimates can be amended later if you gauged it wrong the first time, it's just to help to plan better.
<mdz> this is your chance to ensure that your workload is achievable within the release timeframe
<mdz> so those of you who felt that your breezy goals were too much for the time allotted, this is how you can avoid the same fate for dapper
<mdz> so get those estimates in before the next meeting
<fabbione> mdz: i suggest that we extend this into the specs 
<mdz> fabbione: what do you mean?
<fabbione> to most of the drafter i did ask to add estimte implementation time directly when writing the specs
<fabbione> exactly to have it handy from the beginning
<daniels> mdz: daniels_mobile's battery died
<mdz> if it's in the text of the spec, it should be propagated to launchpad
<pitti> ack
<mdz> a note about the format of these meetings
<JaneW> I found last time that having to read dozen's of specs to distil the updates was impossible, which is why we need the salient info easily available
<mdz> the idea is to have a chance for everyone to very briefly say what they have completed in the past week, will work on in the next week, and where they are blocked
<mdz> to give us a chance to quickly resolve any blockages where we can, and arrange for further discussion where necessary
<fabbione> mdz: i did write something already. If you want i can paste and we can start from it to see how to adapt it for this meeting
<mdz> they will last no more than one hour
<mdz> so we will not have a lot of discussion
<mdz> if there is a topic which needs real discussion, we'll schedule a followup meeting with only the people who need to be there
<JaneW> I will attemot to publish a summary table of the info afterwards
<mdz> since these meetings invariably involve odd hours for some people, we won't hold up the entire group for discussions which aren't relevant to everyone
<mdz> fabbione: I think the easiest thing would be to agree on a standard format so that we can paste
<mdz> as is done in the launchpad meetings
<mdz> however, we did not do this in advance this time, of course
<Kamion> my notes have <launchpad-spec-name>: summary-of-progress
<Kamion> er, minus angle brackets
<pitti> I did it like this: specname\nProgres: ... \n Blocks: \n Plan: \n Time estimate
<Kamion> and misc: for other stuff
<mdz> Kamion: that's reasonable
<fabbione> same here
<mdz> pitti: we should keep the number of lines per person small
<JaneW> pitti: sounds great :))
* pitti compactifies :)
<JaneW> heh
<mdz> Kamion: would you start?
<Kamion> ubuntu-express-*, ue-*: Not started; will start next week once Flight CD 1 is done.
<Kamion> cd-build-process: jigdo improvements done, yielding the vast bulk of the wins here; elmo reckons parallelisation will be a loss with little's current hardware ("I/O bandwidth of a straw"); single-architecture rebuilds not started, but not blocked.
<Kamion> cd-bootloader: syslinux 3 merge partly done, but blocked on finishing Flight CD 1 for general sanity reasons. gfxboot work blocked on that. CD timeout work not started.
<Kamion> misc: insane pile of merges, lots of uninstallable-fixing, seed reorganisation, etc. Assuming I get Flight CD 1 done this week, I intend to spend next week on (a) the big apt-setup merge from Debian (fixing lots of bugs) and (b) Ubuntu Express.
<mdz> great, that's the right level of detail
<Keybuk> (merges: 200 dropped to 150 in the last 2 days)
<mdz> we'll chat a bit about merges at the end of the meeting if we have time
<mdz> fabbione: next?
<fabbione> sure
<fabbione> * Progress on ubuntu-server (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerCandy):
<fabbione>   + Community involment:
<fabbione>     - #ubuntu-server created
<fabbione>     - waiting jdub to create mailing list
<fabbione>     - ubuntu-instant parallel project started from the community to add value to -server (~ server for dummies)
<fabbione>   + Implementation:
<fabbione>     - Create an MD5 checker for the Ubuntu Installer rescue mode (see specs): server side code is done and tested. rt request filed for datacenter integration.
<fabbione> * During this week:
<fabbione>   - kernel security (big mess + ABI change)
<fabbione>   - need to review policy for security with ABI changes (lrm and linux-meta)
<fabbione> * Next week:
<fabbione>   - monday: ubuntu love. I will be out distributing CDs to a lot of local users.
<fabbione>   - kernel security left overs (if any)
<fabbione>   - merges
<fabbione>   - ubuntu-server and ubuntu-cluster work.
<fabbione> * Side notes:
<fabbione>   - Waiting a final date for a visit to a DK Company and held a talk there (sabdfl approved).
<fabbione> (done)
<JaneW> this is great :))
<mdz> fabbione: boot-from-usb?
<fabbione> mdz: no other progresses beside what i write
<fabbione> wrote even
<fabbione> (to keep it short)
<seb128> should we mention all the specs or only the spec where we did some work?
<mdz> fabbione: ok, we'll work on the format for next time so that this is clearer
<pitti> the latter would make more sense
<Mithrandir> oh, pong.
<Mithrandir> sorry, I overslept. :-/
<mdz> pitti: if a task is stalled, it's important for that to be clear during the meeting
<pitti> ok
<mdz> but we haven't time to discuss it here.  janew or I will send mail to the list about it
<mdz> seb128: ready?
<pitti> JaneW: maybe you can evaluate today's formats and suggest a standard one for the next meeting?
<seb128> This week:
<seb128> * caught with UBZ mail backlog
<seb128> * packaged GNOME 2.13.2 (with dholbach)
<seb128> * started menus-revisited changes
<seb128> Next week:
<seb128> * starting catching with bugs backlog
<seb128> * push menus-revisited to implemented
<seb128> * gconf transition (package split, location of the default change, new format to store custom defaults)
<mdz> seb128: thanks
<mdz> pitti: yes, we will do so after the meeting
<mdz> pitti: ready?
<pitti> hide-admin-tools-to-users: implemented backend part of hide-admin-tools-to-users; Plan: coordinate with seb128 and mvo about updating all desktop files and gnome-menu/update-notifier  Time estimate: 2 mandays
<pitti> gstreamer-audio-backend: Blocks: I need gstreamer 0.10 beta in dapper; Plan: upgrade ALSA libs to 1.10 and make necessary adjustments according to spec; Time estimate: 1 day ALSA, 2 days gstreamer; libgnome: unclear
<pitti> automatic-printer-conf: Plan: upgrade to latest cupsys beta; ETA: 6 hours (big package, lots of Ubuntu changes)
<mdz> once we have a standard format we should be able to parallelize more without losing clarity
<pitti> rosetta-firefox-support: Blocks: carlos currently plays with moz2po to actually get it working; ETA unknown
<pitti> general for next week: finish merges, catch up with security, clean up anastacia
* infinity is ready.
<pitti> that's it for now, I didn't start with the other specs so far
<mdz> seb128: will gstreamer 0.10 come in with gnome 2.13.2?
<seb128> seb128: no, it's due first week of december
<mdz> hmm, ok
<mdz> pitti: thanks
<pitti> seb128: any beta to play with?
* JaneW will list as no progress, anything for which an update is not explicitly given
<mdz> Keybuk: next?
<Keybuk> asure
<Keybuk> udev-roadmap: klibc updated, but decided not to use it for udev.  modutils now up to date and owns the isapnp aliases and blacklists; potential issue with installer/initramfs modprobe (busybox) not supporting blacklists.  udev packaging is progressing well; chose intersection of Debian and SuSE rules for our own, still need to sort out upgrades.
<seb128> there is 0.9 tarball, Debian has SVN version of the package but the Debian maintain doesn't want to upload them because the versionning will change for 0.10 ... probably better to wait the 2-3 weeks if we can
<Keybuk> hardware-activation: firmware moved to /lib/firmware as new standard path, kernel-wedge updated, BenC to update kernel-source
<Keybuk> network-magic: NetworkManager doesn't work with Atheros cards, which are pretty common in the target userbase.  Perhaps this should be deferred until the cards can be supported (which is most likely when we have an open driver for them as iz driver bug)
<Keybuk> streamlined-boot: bootchart packages made available, 10s shaved by removal of boot-time depmod.  Next up see what the udev changes do, then fix readahead.
<Keybuk> JaneW: could you mention which specs those are, some of us could be just forgetting by accident ;)
<Kamion> Keybuk: installer issue is no longer relevant for now because I switched d-i to module-init-tools
<JaneW> Keybuk: yes, but not today... all my FF windows have hung need to reboot after meeting ;)
<mdz> Keybuk: regarding udev-roadmap, what is the status of the new coldplugging infrastructure?
<mdz> Keybuk: let's chat later in detail about what to do with NM
<Keybuk> mdz: oops, missed that in my trimming to one line ... prototype tested yesterday and seems to work, need to code up a full version and update initramfs -- ~1 day
<mdz> Keybuk: ok, please make that your next priority so it lands as early as possible
<infinity> Keybuk : I'll need a loud ping from you when you've released your soft lock on initramfs, by the way, so we avoid stepping on each other.
<mdz> Keybuk: streamlined-boot also has a list of things to remove from the boot process, right?
<JaneW> infinity/ Keybuk will you 2 coordinate that or do you need me to liaise?
<infinity> JaneW : I tihnk we're capable. :)
<JaneW> infinity: good :P
<mdz> Keybuk: ok, thanks
<mdz> mvo: next?
<mvo> This week:
<mvo> * automatic removal of dependencies:
<mvo>   - merged work from UBZ with mainline, want to bounty dburrows
<mvo> * support 3rd party package
<mvo>   - support for sources.list.d added to apt/synaptic
<mvo>   - gdebi (direct installing of debs) makes progress
<mvo> Will do:
<mvo> * support 3rd party packages channels and work on a gui for that
<mvo>   (releated to "better repo dialog" spec)
<mvo> * unattended package upgrades checking script
<mvo> * gdebi upload to universe
<pitti> mvo: can I have you for hide-admin-tools next week? for the u-n side? (should be a small change)
<mvo> pitti: sure, that should be possible
<mdz> mvo: command-not-found, release-upgrades?
<mvo> mdz: not started yet, do you want me to change priorities?
<mdz> mvo: please look at them in enough detail to make a time estimate this week, and we'll prioritize based on that
<mdz> mvo: thanks
<mdz> doko: next?
<doko> toolchain-roadmap:  toolchain packages updated to current versions, not final releases. libstdc++ allocator changes start after flight-1, ia32-libs will start loosing packages next week (with glibc), java-updates: not yet started
<doko> others: no progress
<doko> This week:
<doko> - snycs
<doko> - preparing libstdc++ allocator change
<doko> - experimental gij/gcj-4.1 builds
<doko> Next week:
<doko> - libstdc++ allocator changes, toolchain bug trial
<doko> - java to native code infrastructure for libjava packages
<doko> some help next week for the libstdc++ allocator changes would be nice
<mdz> doko: I haven't finished catching up on the allocator stuff
<mdz> doko: how many packages are affected?
<doko> renaming about 40 libs in main
<mdz> not another full C++ transition I hpe
<infinity> doko : You have my help, of course, for naything requiring mass rebuilds.
<doko> rebuilding depending packages
<doko> no, not full. and it's all mechanical now
<dholbach> doko: i'll help out there too
<mdz> doko: ok, let's have a followup with you/me/JaneW about dividing that workload
<doko> infinity, dholbach: thanks
<doko> mdz: ok
<Mithrandir> doko: would you have a chance to do the ooo-amd64 changes, or should I get around to do that?
<Mithrandir> (to build native packages)
<mdz> doko: thanks
<doko> Mithrandir: I'd like to wait until after the allocator change
<mdz> infinity: next?
<Mithrandir> doko: ok, sure.
<infinity> initramfs/usplash-*: fixing vga16fb and syslinux to both run at 640x400, pushing changes to BenC to get the kernel to use update-initramfs in its postinst, most other initramfs stuff will be started in the next week or two, when Keybuk releases his "lock".
<infinity> reducing-duplication: ongoing effort, currently beginning to focus on rebuilding everything against the One True openssl (0.9.8)
<infinity> misc-blocked: linux-restricted-modules waiting on Xorg to build (which is waiting on a new glibc from jbailey) before I bump us to new ATI drivers and fiddle with new Xorg and /lib/firmware paths.
<infinity> misc-nextweek: PHP security updates on my plate, and of course, more effort on the merge and bug triage fray.
<mdz> infinity: is buildd admin taking a lot of your time with the churn?
<infinity> mdz : It can, this week hasn't been TOO painful, though.
<infinity> mdz : It's actually far worse with little churn but high expectations (ie: close to test/release times)
<sivang> hi all
<mdz> infinity: ok, thanks
<sivang> (sorry, wasn't aware of the time of the meeting, I was sure it was going to be in the evening)
<mdz> Riddell: ready?
<Riddell> This week: (kubuntu-roadmap-dapper) packaging KDE 3.5, preparing for the libstdc++ transition and discussing it with the Debian packagers, (kubuntu-translations) preparing KDE packages for rosetta, and doing the artwork for Kubuntu breezy CDs.
<Riddell> Also tidied the Kubuntu wiki pages, (kubuntu-documentation) preparing documentation for breezy and preparing KubuntuDapperPackagerManager for Bounty.
<JaneW> sivang: rotates 6 hourly each week, next week will be at 14:00 UTC
<Riddell> Next week, doing c++ transition, simplify-kde, documentation packaging, hopefully kubuntu-system-tools fixing knetworkconf
<sivang> JaneW: good, that is more doable for me :)
<mdz> Riddell: kubuntu-system-tools is still drafting, we need to get it polished up before starting the implementation
<Riddell> mdz: ok, I'll look at that today
<mdz> Riddell: over the next week I need you to take charge of getting kubuntu CD builds going again (uninstallables, livefs builds, etc.)
<sivang> JaneW: DapperGoals is da page ? :)
<Kamion> sivang: https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/dapper/+specstable
<Kamion> (for the moment)
<Riddell> mdz: yep, I've been waiting on c++ transition for that
<infinity> Riddell : For the livefs unbreakage, you know to ping me if you need help, yes?
<sivang> Kamion: ah right, thx
<mdz> Riddell: we're trying to get a CD build out before introducing more uninstallability
<Riddell> infinity: will do
<mdz> Riddell: with Kamion's build process improvements, it should be much easier to run CD builds on-demand
<mdz> Riddell: thanks
<mdz> Mithrandir: next?
<Kamion> Riddell: I re-enabled the cdimage crontab last night so at least you'll get test runs
<Riddell> Kamion: great, thanks
<Mithrandir> mdz: sure, ready.
<mdz> Mithrandir: fire away
<Mithrandir> This week:
<Mithrandir> - merges
<Mithrandir> - making it possible to build cdebconf widgets out-of tree.
<Mithrandir> Next week:
<Mithrandir> - merges
<Mithrandir> - help making the CDs installable again so I can implement some of my CD-based specs and start doing the live cd boot speed instrumentation
<Mithrandir> Blocked on:
<Mithrandir> - generally bugzilla being utterly slow due to jamesh running gpg imports on the bugzilla host.  Makes it hard to know when bug triage and merges are possible to do.
<mdz> Mithrandir: I'll follow up regarding macquarie
<Mithrandir> mdz: thanks.
<mdz> Mithrandir: please make CD and livefs installability your priority, to help Colin in preparing the first Flight
<mdz> Mithrandir: coordinate with him regarding what needs to be done
<Mithrandir> mdz: ok, will do.
<pitti> I'll do the inclusion reports toay to fix anastacia
<mdz> pitti: is anastacia currently blocking installability?
<pitti> (and make a few uploads to use other libs, etc.)
<pitti> mdz: not so sure, but buildability at least
<Kamion> mdz: in some cases yes
<Mithrandir> pitti: we should be announcing locks of some kind in #u-d, then.
<Mithrandir> there has been a little (but not much) double-work due to people not announcing what they're doing.
<mdz> Kamion: let's have a followup regarding the CD blockers and distributing that work to more people
<Kamion> sure
<mdz> Mithrandir: thanks
<mdz> dholbach: next?
<dholbach> this week: done: big heap of merges, gnome 2.13.2
<dholbach> this week: to do: bug triage, missing merges, ubuntu-docs packaging
<dholbach> next week: bug triage, missing merges, desktop team organisation, bug day, talking accessibility with hno73, c++ allocator change
<dholbach> power-management-configuration: desrt, mjg59, pitti and hughsie are currently in the loop. the biggest problem is that gnome-power-manager/hal upstream want to have hal running as root, whereas pitti ... doesnt want to. We already considered not using g-p-m and rely on the scripts, Matthew didn't like that. desrt started hacking on various things for testing reasons, but unfortunately there was no agreement made yet.
<dholbach> inclusion-of-docs: started to try to understand 80M of docs and how they are built; no upload yet, since there were no big changes yet
<dholbach> acessibility-*: need to catch up with hno73, since the BOFs were not scheduled in Montreal
<jsgotangco> yeah
* Keybuk returns ... could someone send me everything since I last said anything <g>
<mdz> dholbach: hmm, let's talk later about power-management-configuration, sounds like we need to figure that out
<dholbach> absolutely
<Riddell> Keybuk: done
<Kamion> dholbach: I think for avoidance of confusion (?) we should consider weeks to start and end at this meeting. :)
<mdz> Kamion: indeed :-)
<dholbach> ok :)
<mdz> dholbach: thanks
<mdz> ogra: ready?
<ogra> yup
<ogra> == thin-client-sound ==
<ogra> * proof of concept works fine here (there is way less to do than the spec says, will correct this)
<ogra> * implementation and coding will take another day
<ogra> 
<ogra> == thin-client-local-devices ==
<ogra> * not started yet
<ogra> * ltspfs packaged but not yet uploaded (needs more testing)
<ogra> 
<ogra> == thin-client-memory-usage ==
<ogra> * did some further testing
<ogra> * played with module blacklisting etc
<ogra> * talked to daniels about reducing the color palette by default to 16bit for thin clients
<ogra> 
<ogra> == thin-client-faster-startup ==
<ogra> * made all the changes we worked out at ubz
<ogra> * did some bootcharting 
<ogra> * enabled usplash, to recognize we loose 5sec through it :/
<ogra> 
<ogra> == gnome-screensaver (generally) ==
<ogra> * started to adopt the .desktop file scheme for gnome-screensaver in xscreensaver
<ogra> * split the hacks into 4 packages for shipped/non-shipped, gl/non-gl (per sabdfl request)
<ogra> == gnome-screensaver-default-image ==
<ogra>  * not started yet
<ogra> 
<ogra> == planned for the week ==
<ogra>  * finish up my local bzr archive of ltsp mainline make it public and add my changes after 
<ogra>    cross-check through mdz
<ogra>  * get the specs texts finished and finally approved
<ogra>  * further ltsp testing in all areas
<ogra>  * finishing xscreensaver stuff 
<ogra>  * making the first edubuntu CD, getting familiar with liveCD builds (we had none last release)
<JaneW> ogra: and evangelising and trying to solicit community dev help!
<mdz> ogra: ok, we have things to talk about on many of those goals, let's do that soon
<ogra> mdz, yup
<JaneW> mdz: want a sep edubuntu meeting with us?
<mdz> JaneW: sure, we can do that at the same time
<infinity> ogra : You may want to hit/ping me later about your experience with usplash on thin clients, I was going to play with that Real Soon Now.
<mdz> JaneW: BenC and Diziet are not here, please follow up with them via email and CC me
<ogra> infinity, its fine, just slow :)
<JaneW> mdz: will do
<infinity> ogra : Sure, but there's no reason it should be.  Anyhow, later.
<ogra> yup
<mdz> ok, one general agenda item is the merge process
<mdz> we need to get this initial merge finished off so that we can move ahead with other work
<pitti> I would really like to see some more people being able to sync packages
<mdz> pitti: sync or merge?
<pitti> it costs a lot of time to track these issues for several days
<pitti> mdz: sync
<seb128> yeah
<ogra> mdz, sync
<pitti> and they block other packages often
<mdz> pitti: oh, carry out the actual sync in katie you mean?
* mvo agrees
<pitti> mdz: yes
<mdz> elmo, Kamion and I can all do that
<Kamion> pitti: I did some for a while, but elmo said it costs him time to try to resolve what I've done against his queue when he comes back
<Kamion> mdz: ^--
<pitti> Kamion: hm, ok
<seb128> it took me 4 days to get gnumeric buildable mostly waiting on syncs
<pitti> but that is a blocker IMHO, at least for me
<Kamion> and asked me not to do it unless it was world-shattering urgent and he'd jumped under a bus
<mdz> Kamion: let's the three of us put our heads together and figure out how to do that better
<Kamion> mdz: nod
<Mithrandir> using the wiki or bugzilla or something sounds like a good plan, IMO.
<pitti> when we discover that something can be synced, we should do it right away
<pitti> otherwise new changes interfere with that, etc.
<pitti> we already had that case
<JaneW> mdz: are you going to get the DapperGaols wiki page going or should I?
<mdz> JaneW: go ahead and create it; I'll populate it (was planning to just put a list of launchpad URLs there for now)
<mdz> JaneW: there isn't much sense duplicating the info from launchpad I don't think
<JaneW> mdz: I am scheming all sorts of huge and unwieldy tabulated stuff now ;)
<mdz> JaneW: once we figure out the view we need, we can add it to the spec tracker and have it generated automatically
<Kamion> pitti: not to be rah-launchpad or anything, but ultimately there'll be a button you can push to do that, I think ...
<JaneW> mdz: that would be WAY better
<mdz> ok, we have 5 minutes.  does anyone have a pressing concern which applies to the entire team?
<daniels> mdz: ...
<doko> mdz: disk space on concordia
<fabbione> mdz. JaneW: sidenote: https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/dapper/+specstable has no specs for which i am assignee...
<mdz> daniels: oh, you're back. go
<fabbione> doko: i did open an RT request for it
<daniels> yes, I pinged you about 45 minutes ago.
<daniels> completed: x11r7 rc1 and assorted bugfix fun.  a few merges, syncs.  prepared xorg breezy-update.  debugging mcpp.
<daniels> wip: x11r7 rc2 tarball updates (~100 new tarballs).  everything but server done; server and drivers are in local testing as there's no point uploading (see below).
<daniels> blocked: glibc for building xorg-server.  jbailey and I developed patch to fix.  new binutils upstream needed to let glibc build so xorg-server can build so the drivers can build.  bugzilla.
<daniels> planned: finish x11r7 rc2 tarballs.  start work on uninstallables.  update mesa to new upstream when it comes.
<daniels> x-roadmap: permanently wip by definition.  eta: jan 20th. dbus-restarts: largely fixed (we don't restart dbus anymore).  mostly informational for upstream use.  eta: not planned. gdm-keyboard-layout: superseded by a few other specs which don't involve me.  eta: no idea. faster-gnome-startup: some mcpp issues to iron out which have been causing me pain today.  eta: unsure (else only gnome work left).
<pitti> hrmpf network #$##$
<JaneW> fabbione: we'll have to fix that!
<sivang> JaneW: lol
<doko> fabbione, Znarl did tell me it was long term, but it looks like we need it short term, or at least have separate i386 and amd64 machines
<mdz> daniels: so r7 final is expected in Jan?
<daniels> dec 7th
<mdz> daniels: what is blocking the glibc upload?  just do it
<fabbione> doko: i told him we need a short term solution asap to work and a final solution because it is a long term issue
<daniels> mdz: i can do it if you want, but it will FTBFS because of binutils
<dholbach> mdz: the cd?
<mdz> daniels: is the new binutils a big deal to package?
<fabbione> mdz: elmo required some testing before upload and afaik he is looking into it
<fabbione> there is a bit more than just pkging
<daniels> mdz: elmo has said to tread very, very carefully around it, so jbailey is mostly sorting it out aiui
<mdz> dholbach: the cd?
<daniels> mdz: it's non-trivial (jumping to a new cvs revision)
<dholbach> mdz: you asked what was blocking it... i was thinking loudly, sorry
<mdz> daniels: ok, we can't block on jbailey as he'll be busy with support this cycle
<mdz> daniels: let's discuss later
<mdz> we're out of time
<daniels> i'm not confident that I won't break the entire archive, which could possibly be counterproductive.  so it's not immediately obvious.
<JaneW> daniels: good thing to say as the meeting ends!
<mdz> anything else, mail me, me/janew, or ubuntu-devel as appropriate
<pitti> that was a pretty useful meeting IMHO
<JaneW> thanks everyone, for a first attempt that worked well
<mdz> expect to hear from me and JaneW about refining the meeting process
<mdz> but I think this was a good first attempt
<fabbione> yup
<Nafallo> pitti: agreed :-)
<mdz> adjourned, thanks all
<pitti> thanks
<JaneW> see you all same place and day next week +6 hours
<fabbione> thanks guys
<Nafallo> thanks :-)
<sivang> mdz: may I pm you about the medium prio goal I'm assigned to, or shall we talk about it in about 9 hours? :-)
<mdz> sivang: email is best, I'm going to sleep
<sivang> mdz: ok, good night!
<JaneW> mdz: sleep well
<ogra> night mdz
<ogra> pfft
<sivang> too fast :)
#ubuntu-meeting 2005-11-23
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:robitaille] : gendas: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingAgendas | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event  | Logs: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/  | 18 Nov 14:00 UTC: DocTeam | 22 Nov 22:00 UTC:  Community Council | 23 Nov 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 24 Nov 14:00 UTC: Dapper Development Status
<jsgotangco> mm let's wait a bit before we start
<jsgotangco> are we set?
<jjesse> i am :0
<jsgotangco> great let's aim for quality then
<jsgotangco> heh
<kjcole> Here physically and virtually, but on my schedule, not mentally. ;-)
<jjesse> is it too early to be here mentally kjcole
<jjesse> ?
<jsgotangco> kjcole: are you on campus?
<kjcole> Yep.
<dholbach> do you have the agenda somewhere?
<jsgotangco> ok
<jsgotangco> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamMeetingAgenda
<jsgotangco> who's here?
<jjesse> me
* jsgotangco -> Jerome Gotangco
<kjcole> jsgotangco: Perhaps I should say I'm on MY campus: Gallaudet University...
* dholbach is Daniel Holbach
<kjcole> kjcole = Kevin Cole
<Treenaks> kjcole: -color please
* bshumate is Brian Shumate
<jsgotangco> err anyone else?
* jsgotangco grabs bhuvan
<jsgotangco> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamMeetingAgenda is our agenda
<dholbach> mdke told me, that my attendance was required regarding the future packaging of the ubuntu docs?
<jsgotangco> i believe so
<jsgotangco> hmm what's wrong with bhuvan
<jsgotangco> anyways
<jsgotangco> dholbach: are you in charge of the packaging now?
<dholbach> yes
<jsgotangco> or will you be mentoring someone?
<jsgotangco> awesome...
<dholbach> i had a brief look at the complete source of the svn, but was not able to figure it out yet
<dholbach> i will investigate a bit more at the weekend
<jsgotangco> okay bhuvan seems to be having problems on connecting
* Riddell is JonathanRiddell
<dholbach> regarding the one-source-package-story: i heard it somewhere and thought it was decided on already
<jsgotangco> bhuvan: you ok now?
<bhuvan> yeah
<bhuvan> yes
<jsgotangco> ok let's tackle 1 and 3 first since bhuvan will be leaving soon
<bhuvan> any feedbacks/suggestions about w.u.c/ServerGuide ?
<jsgotangco> bhuvan current wrote the spec for the server guide
<jsgotangco> its located at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerGuide
<jsgotangco> i haven't read it yet but it looks pretty comprehensive based on the TOC
<bhuvan> today i wish to discuss about the topics, finalize couple of terminologies we may use in our serverguide
<bhuvan> ok
<dholbach> bhuvan: with whom do you work on this?
<jsgotangco> bhuvan: do you plan to diverge from MAIN repos?
<jjesse> bhuvan: just scanned it and it looks good
<bhuvan> jsgotango, no
<jsgotangco> ok so its all MAIN stuff then
<bhuvan> dholbach, it's based on rhel admin guide
<bhuvan> jsgotango, yes
<bhuvan> jjesse, ok
<jsgotangco> bhuvan: who are you working with at the moment, do you have a draft already?
* jsgotangco just svn up
<bhuvan> jsgotangco, no
<jsgotangco> bhuvan: can we know your whole name if you don't mind?
<bhuvan> i do've a template at http://puggy.symonds.net/~bhuvan/ubuntu-doc/build/generic/serverguide/C/  
<dholbach> bhuvan: you might want to talk to fabbione, because he works on the server edition on the distro side
<bhuvan> Bhuvaneswaran Arumugam
<bhuvan> dholbach, sure
<jsgotangco> shit my seat just fell
<dholbach> bhuvan: and infinity, but i'm not quite sure
<bhuvan> dholbach, ok
<jsgotangco> yes
<jsgotangco> anyways
<jsgotangco> bhuvan has been contributing a lot with patches and stuff
<bhuvan> and one page template at, http://puggy.symonds.net/~bhuvan/ubuntu-doc/build/generic/serverguide/C/serverguide-all.html
<jsgotangco> i'd like to request svn access for him...
<jsgotangco> bhuvan: what else do you need to help you on the project?
<jsgotangco> resources, etc.?
<bhuvan> jsgotangco, ok .. but, before that let me discuss about the terminologies we may use in our server guide
<jsgotangco> okay
<jsgotangco> shoot
<kjcole> A question from someone new to the whole process: I keep seeing svn.  bzr/launchpad not ready enough for prime time? (Or am I so new to this that the question doesn't make sense?)
<bhuvan> first, the editor. the choices are vi/vim/emacs. i prefer vim
<ogra> i dont think we ship a plain vi
<jsgotangco> kjcole: we've been using svn from the very start, a bzr transition will take time and planning and we'll need the lp team's help
<Riddell> kjcole: at the time svn was set up baz had a steep learning curve.  bzr should be really good now but I think this cycle will stick with svn
<dholbach> bhuvan: what do you mean? like rteferring to an editor in examples and such?
<jsgotangco> kjcole: but we're going there
<jsgotangco> how about nano?
<jsgotangco> its pretty easy enough even for newbies imo
<ogra> at least that the default
<kjcole> I was going to mention nano...
<Riddell> bhuvan: quanta, kate and presumably gedit are also choices
<jsgotangco> Riddell: for servers? heh
<ogra> Riddell, depends if you want to write the guide for servers with GUI
<bhuvan> dholbach, i meant the editor we use to configure
<bhuvan> dholbach, ie.. to edit conf files
<bhuvan> Riddel, server wont have X. so we cant rely on gedit
<jsgotangco> bhuvan: i'd go for nano, its pretty easy for beginners
<ogra> jsgotangco, for edubuntu (a server distro) it would be appropriate
<dholbach> i would say "edit bla file" and maybe in the first paragraph mention howtos for the editors *shrug*
<kjcole> (If nano's in the mix a "-bkw" would be a useful default/alias somewhere.)
<jsgotangco> vi/vim is like a chapter on linux in a nutshell :)
<jsgotangco> and probably make a back up of the default conf files first before editing..
<bhuvan> jsgotangco, ok
<Riddell> bhuvan: I would assume nano then but have small chapters for vim and emacs as well
<bhuvan> dholbach, i prefer to be specific with the editor to use
<dholbach> yeah, that was merely my own opinion ;)
<bhuvan> dholbach, ok
<jsgotangco> bhuvan: maybe mention that in the beginning that you're going to use nano but you're free to use any editor...
<jsgotangco> at least you'll have a scope/limitation on the editor part
<bhuvan> jsgotangco, ok
<bhuvan> ok
<jsgotangco> k anything else bhuvan?
<bhuvan> next, package manager
<bhuvan> choices are apt-get/aptitude. i prefer apt-get
<jjesse> it would make sense on the server to use apt-get, no gui is instaleld by default
<ogra> me too, but aptitude is far more beginner friendly
<kjcole> (Sorry: -Bkw (-B=backup, -k=kill from cursor to line end instead of entire line, and -w=no unsolicited wordwrapping.)
<bhuvan> jjesse, i agree
<jsgotangco> aptitude at least has a gui of sorts
<jjesse> why is aptitude considered more newbie friendly?  when i started using linux it was debian and i learned apt-get 
<bhuvan> jjesse, me too..
<Riddell> I could never get the hang of aptitude
<jjesse> me either
<ogra> jjesse, imagine a win 2000 adim in such a environment
<ogra> *admin
<Riddell> bhuvan: will there be a general introduction to the command line chapter?
<bhuvan> imo, if he is used to command line, then apt-get would be a cake-walk
<jjesse> ogra i am a windows admin
<ogra> he'd kiss your feet for at least some gui love
<jjesse> that's what i do for a living
<Riddell> ogra: he's want to use adept/synaptic then
<bhuvan> Riddel: general introduction ?
<Riddell> jjesse's dirty secret :)
<ogra> jjesse, but *you* know debian based systems ...
<jsgotangco> your toc contains aptitude or maybe its still wip?
<jjesse> but i started using linux after i was a windows admin
<Riddell> bhuvan: yeah, introducing GUI users to the command line
<bhuvan> in any case, we may give an introduction about all possible package manager
<ogra> jjesse, sure, i mean the guy who heard about linux and wants to try out the one a friend recommended it to him... to probably adopt it for his setup
<bhuvan> Riddell, ok
<jsgotangco> well apt is definitely more popular than aptitude...
<ogra> sure
<kjcole> Will the average admin use much more than update, upgrade, dist-upgrade and install?  (Once in a while remove or clean.)  Doesn't seem too complex...
<bhuvan> so, shall we decide on apt-get ?
<jjesse> +1 from me
<jsgotangco> i'd go for apt
<ogra> as i said intially, i prefer it personally... but for newcomers i'd suggest aptitude ..
<bhuvan> cool
<jsgotangco> ok so we're cool on apt?
<Riddell> + 1 for apt, -1 for aptitude including for beginners
<jjesse> heck if its in the guide then the "newbies" will learn apt :)
<bhuvan> ok
<jsgotangco> nice
<bhuvan> next regarding contribution ?
<jsgotangco> sure
<jsgotangco> contribution on what?
<bhuvan> i may cover most part of sys conf/network related applications
<bhuvan> any takes for windows networking/misc stuffs ?
<bhuvan> s/takes/($1)ers
<jsgotangco> samba for example?
<bhuvan> jsgotangco, exactly
<jsgotangco> hmmm if you can finalize your TOC i can make a draft of samba stuff...
<jjesse>  as a windows admin i can look into it
<bhuvan> cool
<jsgotangco> and probably some on bind and dncp
<bhuvan> ok
<bhuvan> hope you meant dhcp ?
<jsgotangco> yes
<Riddell> bhuvan: the synaptic chapter should really be an adept chapter when included in kubuntu, I wonder if it's possible to use profiles for that
<bhuvan> Riddell: i guess, we're going to have one generic server guide
<jjesse> Riddell: if i recall we tried to use profiles at one time and it messed things up?
<jsgotangco> bhuvan: are you planning to add gui stuff? i assume this is all cli
<jjesse> bhuvan: the doc would be included on the kubuntu install if the person typed server at the install
<ogra> Riddell, you'll stay with adept ?
<Kamion> apt-get/aptitude> note that aptitude provides a perfectly good command-line replacement for apt-get; consider that as well as its UI
<Riddell> bhuvan: yes, kubuntu docs should include the server guide, synaptic is the only chapter I can see that ought to be changed somehow, not a huge issue though
<jjesse> for kubntu yeah we will
<Riddell> ogra: of course, why not?
<jsgotangco> ogra: will the default edubuntu install still have gnome running on the server?
<bhuvan> Riddell, good point. we can include it
<ogra> jsgotangco, yes
<bhuvan> any target date to freeze the toc ?
<ogra> jsgotangco, it needs a installed desktop...  (no need for a running one though... but gdm doesnt cost much)
<jsgotangco> bhuvan: there's no LTSP on the TOC
<bhuvan> jsgotangco, ok
<ogra> Riddell, its UI reminds on bugzilla :)
<jsgotangco> lol
<bhuvan> jsgotangco, i'll add
<jsgotangco> bhuvan: great
<jsgotangco> what else
<bhuvan> i repeat, any target date to freeze the toc ?
<jsgotangco> mgalvin: anything to say on the server doc?
<jsgotangco> bhuvan: its your call
<kjcole> This is where I should probably dig myself a bigger hole: Jeff Elkner and I are theoretically working on an Edubuntu Cookbook based on the tuxLab Howto...  The LTSP stuff will be in there, no doubt.
<jsgotangco> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerGuide looks good at the moment
<bhuvan> jsgotangco, ok
<ogra> kjcole, thats fine ... 
<bhuvan> fine
<jsgotangco> kjcole: sure
<jbailey> kjcole: Cookbook?  "How to fry your thin client: Just add water"
<bhuvan> guess, we can move on to (3)
<dholbach> haha :)
<jjesse> 1
<ogra> kjcole, the server guide they are talking about is rather "how do i install all ltsp stuff manually on a non-edubuntu"
<jsgotangco> ok since bhuvan will be leaving let's jump to 3 
<jjesse> doh wrong window 
<ogra> kjcole, while edubuntu comes preconfigured ;)
<jsgotangco> Quicktour - XML or HTML
<jsgotangco> ?
<bhuvan> yeah, we're maintaining the html version in our svn
<mgalvin> jsgotangco: I have only been partly following the meeting, is the server guide going to be about ubuntu-server or ubuntu as a server
<bhuvan> imo, it's odd. let's convert it into xml ?
<jsgotangco> mgalvin: ubuntu-server
<jjesse> i thought it was about ubuntu-server
<bhuvan> + howto use ubuntu as a complete server
<mgalvin> ok, just clarifying for myself, thnx
<jsgotangco> bhuvan: mgalvin has been working on "instant server" along with fabbione and others you might want to talk with them too
<Riddell> ubuntu-server doesn't have synaptic then 
<bhuvan> jsgotangco, yeah, i'm aware of it
<bhuvan> jsgotangco, sure i'll
<jsgotangco> ok can we jump on 3 then?
<bhuvan> i already had :)
<jsgotangco> ok
<jsgotangco> what's wrong with the html
<jsgotangco> :)
<Riddell> what's the issues for XML or docbook?  HTML can't be translated easily presumably but docbook needs clever stylesheets and might restrict layout?
<bhuvan> it looks odd, let's convert it into xml and maintain the uniformity accross the repo
<jsgotangco> i believe its in xhtml so its can be translated
<mgalvin> i don't have any suggestions atm, i will read the meeting log when i have time and post any comments to the list (i am busy back and forth a bit atm)
<bhuvan> xml gives flexibility to convert between html/pdf ..
<bhuvan> if need be..
<jsgotangco> but if its going to be converted to xml, it can be flexible
<bhuvan> mgalvin, thankx
<bhuvan> jsgotangco, yes
<jsgotangco> it was converted before, but its a very simple document really
<jsgotangco> but anyways,
<jbailey> The html issue is that there's no trivial way to associate other languages with it.  In docbook, you can have multiple omf files that give links to the right languages.
<jsgotangco> jbailey: right...
<jbailey> So it's not the document itself so much as the things *using* the documents.
<jsgotangco> scrollkeeper lovely :)
<jbailey> Right.
<jsgotangco> anyayws, docbook always was the choice we're smart enough to transform any xml document :)
<bhuvan> so, we can maintain xml ?
<jbailey> That said, if what you're producing is documentation, there shouldn't be so much need for crazy styling - docbook is good enouhg to produce books. =)
<jsgotangco> yes
<jbailey> It's mostly when you're doing things like the firefox about page that converting from docbook will always suck.
<bhuvan> cool
<jjesse> i think the only question is how the quicktour will look then right?
<jsgotangco> jjesse: sure but that would be voodoo css then heh
<jsgotangco> we have 5 more months
<jsgotangco> ok so we settled on xml then
<jsgotangco> its only 1 document
<jsgotangco> :)
<bhuvan> jsgotangco, thankx
<bhuvan> * time to start to "HARRY POTTER and the gobert of fire"
<jsgotangco> bhuvan: can you update https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamProjects to reflect your changes
<jsgotangco> lol
<jsgotangco> thanks bhuvan 
<jsgotangco> we'll request svn access for you
<bhuvan> jsgotangco, ok
<bhuvan> jsgotangco, ok
<jsgotangco> bhuvan: have your gpg key ready
<bhuvan> jsgotangco, yes
<bhuvan> in lp
<jsgotangco> yes
<jsgotangco> ok we go back to 2
<jsgotangco>  Packaging - single source package to be used for {edu}{k}ubuntu? (mdke and dholbach)
<bhuvan> bye bye
<jsgotangco> dholbach?
<dholbach> yeah... it was my misunderstanding... i thought that "one source package for all the docs" was decided on already
<jsgotangco> does this mean all docs will be in one package?
<dholbach> if there are no shared chapters between docs, it might make sense to have them separately
<ogra> edubuntu will have pretty specific docs 
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jjesse> as will kubuntu
<dholbach> no... one source package can build a huge lot of binary packages
<jsgotangco> this doesn't make sense to me really
<jjesse> we aren't profilling
<ogra> so a additional edubuntu-docs package should be fine
<jsgotangco> they only have shared libs on svn
<jsgotangco> but not on the doc itself
<dholbach> i'm talking about a SOURCE package :)
<Riddell> there are shared docs too, like server guide
<jbailey> You can also make an ubuntu-docs-common
<jbailey> For shared bits
<dholbach> yeah
* dholbach hugs jbailey 
<jbailey> Just make sure you update the DapperStandardsBase bits if you do that, please.
<Riddell> although, kubuntu might want different stylesheets and output compated to ubuntu
<jbailey> For branding, we specifically said that ubuntu-docs could be overridden.
<jsgotangco> very different stylesheets
<dholbach> yeah... let's just drop the idea
<jsgotangco> jbailey: because its possible that oems would want to do their own docs right?
<dholbach> it was my misunderstanding, sorry
<jbailey> jsgotangco: Right.
<ogra> the -coomon package idea sounds very cool
<ogra> *-common
<jsgotangco> yes
<dholbach> ogra, Riddell: so the three of us will take care of the packages?
<jsgotangco> we can dump all the libs and license stuff on -common i guess
<ogra> dholbach, i'll care for edubuntu-docs
<dholbach> cool
<Riddell> dholbach: ok, but if you set up e.g. scripts to do weekly uploads then mind and include us
<jbailey> How I would do it, I think, for a -common would be to have that in a separate repo, decide on those styles and lock 'em down early if you can.  Any change to those will start to affect a lot of packages.
<dholbach> Riddell: same goes for you :)
<jsgotangco> jbailey: the -common would probably start on the svn itself...
<jjesse> i would be fore setting up styles and everything, that way i wouldn't have to always bug riddell over and over again :)
<jsgotangco> is *-common good for us?
<jsgotangco> or needs further discussion
<jbailey> I think further.
<jjesse> well are we going to have diff
<jjesse> sorry
<jjesse> wrong window
<jbailey> I've seen people say 'yay' and people say 'kubuntu and ubuntu might want different styles'
<ogra> edubuntu as well :)
<jsgotangco> ok
<Riddell> I don't think -common would work with different styles
<jsgotangco> its a good base of discussion though
<jsgotangco> ok so we'll move this on the list then
<ogra> Riddell, do you use lsb-release ?
<jsgotangco>  Removal of "K" from the front of Kubuntu documents
<jsgotangco> ?
<Riddell> ogra: for what?
<jsgotangco> like my original kquickguide.xml?
<ogra> Riddell, to set it to Kubuntu insterad of Ubuntu
<kjcole> Well, the wiki allows me to change styles, and lots of HTML comes with alternate styles...  Is it a silly idea to have multiple styles and some scripts for each variant (k-, edu-) set a default style while offering up the alternatives?
<ogra> Riddell, see lsb_release -a
<jsgotangco> jjesse: ?
<Riddell> ogra: no, the kubuntu /etc/lsb-release file is the same as for ubuntu
<ogra> Riddell, we could add a debconf setting to select the right style based on lsb-release, if we both would start setting the right value there
<jjesse> sorry work called missed
<jsgotangco> jjesse: removal of K?
<Riddell> yes please :)
<jsgotangco> does it bork the doc?
<Riddell> the documents are already in the kubuntu directory as a namespace
<Riddell> also the Makefile targets are hard to understand acronyms like kak, which should be changed to e.g.  make about-kubuntu
<Riddell> I think that affects the ubuntu docs too, it's just a wee thing to make it less user friendly
<jsgotangco> well that's true and kak sounds like turd
<Riddell> yep :)
<Riddell> so that's agreed, just a question of if me or jjesse does it and does the ubuntu Makefile follow
<jsgotangco> anyways, i was just having fun back then when i did the kname on the doc
<Riddell> ah hah, it's all jsgotangco's fault :)
<jsgotangco> heh
<jjesse> sorry back from work
<jsgotangco> the kname doesn't really affect much of the doc itself unless there were some magic involved that i didn't see at all :)
<jjesse> like i said over email only thing to do would be to change the make file and rename the docs on svn right?
<jsgotangco> yes basically
<Riddell> jjesse: yes.  so me or you to do it?
<jsgotangco> they don't link back to the other docs
<jjesse> i can do it today
<Riddell> groovy
<Kamion> ogra: NOOOOO
<jjesse> it looks like a slow day at work :)
<Kamion> ogra: lsb-release is not going to be polluted by debconf madness
<jsgotangco> ok that's settled then
<jsgotangco>  Moving locale C --> en?
<jsgotangco> hmmm
<jsgotangco> this is a gnome thing
<jsgotangco> dholbach: ping?
<dholbach> pong
<jsgotangco> is locale C really required instead of en?
<Kamion> ogra: nor can it possibly return different values for Ubuntu and Kubuntu, since both are built out of the same archive
<dholbach> jsgotangco: what do you want to change?
<ogra> Kamion, i dont want to pollute it, i wanted to read from it
<jbailey> The C locale is the fall back one.
<jbailey> en isn't usually the fallback.
<Riddell> Kamion: and presumably same for edubuntu
<jsgotangco> jbailey: this messes up other installs say FR?
<jsgotangco> if the fallback isn't C?
<jbailey> Well, you'd have to teach scrollkeeper that the fallback was en instead.
<Kamion> Riddell: yes, hence ogra should know this
<jsgotangco> jbailey: nice
<jsgotangco> that'll probably bork the other upstream stuff then
<dholbach> why would you want to change it in the first place?
<jsgotangco> well one member raised it before
<dholbach> mh
<jsgotangco> i think it messes up transformation of sorts
<jsgotangco> don't really remember the technical details
<jsgotangco> we can move this to list
<dholbach> i see
<jbailey> I'd be inclined to put it with a "provide technical reasons, come again soon"
<jsgotangco> jeff schering isn't here...
<jsgotangco> jbailey: i'll make a comment on that then
<jsgotangco> anyways
<jsgotangco> not much members came anyways
<jsgotangco> i'd like to discuss docteam member stuff 
<jsgotangco> and get opinion from those here
<jsgotangco> :)
<dholbach> if there's nothing you want with me right now, i'd leave to grab something to eat and take my dog out
<jbailey> dholbach: Woking the dog?
<jsgotangco> dholbach: cool i think we're done
<jsgotangco> dholbach: don't work your dog man
<dholbach> jbailey: errrr no :)
<jsgotangco> poor murphy
<ogra> jbailey, hey, we are not in chinatown anymore
<dholbach> ...
<dholbach> this is the right time to leave :)
<ogra> heh
<dholbach> see you later guys and thanks for the meeting
<jsgotangco> anyways
<jsgotangco> https://launchpad.net/people/ubuntu-doc has the current membership
<jsgotangco> obviously its restricted membership
<jsgotangco> but i'd like to ask if its reasonable that we make members with svn access to sign the coc
<jsgotangco> mandatory :)
<jsgotangco> besides we upload too in ubuntu servers
<jbailey> I would be inclined to simply restrict svn commit access to members.
<jbailey> Anyone who's contrib'd a bunch of things can qualify as a member.
<jjesse> i think members should sign the CoC
<jjesse> but don't give svn access to all members
<jsgotangco> jbailey: of course...but i'm inclined that team members sign the coc too
<jjesse> not all members commit correct?
* Riddell notes dual use of word "member" here
<jbailey> Riddell: Right, sorry.
<jbailey> I meant, restrict SVN commit to Ubuntu members.
<jsgotangco> jbailey: ahhhh
<jbailey> And encourage folks who are active contributors to get their Ubuntu membership anyway, since it integrates them into the Ubuntu community in general.
<kjcole> In my blundering around in launchpad, I've created teams that were probably better left uncreated, one of which was the Edubuntu Cookbook team.
<jsgotangco> good point
<jsgotangco> kjcole: sure go crazy in lp anyways...
<jjesse> or like the team of all jonathans that one day i was a member of :)
<kjcole> So, speaking of docs, there needs to be more Launchpad docs for people like me. ;-)
<Riddell> jjesse: you arn't any more?  changed your name?
<jsgotangco> jbailey: i probably got 1 or 2 people in the team list with commit access but not an ubuntu-member though...
<jsgotangco> kjcole: well https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamProjects has a sampling of current work
<jsgotangco> (Edubuntu used to be there btw)
<jbailey> jsgotangco: Right, but if they've contributed enough to get svn access, then they've certainly done enough to become an Ubuntu member
<jsgotangco> sure if it interests them at all (one don't)
<jbailey> Do you really think it would be a blocked?
<jbailey> blocker, rather?
<jsgotangco> not really, but i'd have them sign the coc since they do work in ubuntu servers for one
<jsgotangco> being a -member is their own choice
<Riddell> only blocking would be a time issue, 2 weeks to next CC meeting then however long to get an SVN account is a hassle
<jsgotangco> but any current -member can easily get svn access sure
<jjesse> boss was around, Riddell i'm no longer amember of that team
<jjesse> i didn't change name or antying
<jsgotangco> what team?
<jjesse> the all jonathan's team
<Riddell> jjesse: I don't seem to be either, wonder where it's gone
<jsgotangco> lol ok
<jjesse> didthe team get deleted?
<jsgotangco> anyways
<jsgotangco> this needs more discussion
<jsgotangco> and more ubuntu-doc members
<jsgotangco> its probably a good cc topic too, not just for ubuntu-doc but for other teams
<Riddell> I agree with jbailey though, just make sure everyone is an ubuntu member
<jjesse> can i just say that AS/400 query sucks
<jbailey> jjesse: This isn't news. =)
<jbailey> But sometimes I miss green text on a black background. =)
<jjesse> not news for me either, but i hate working w/ it :(
<jbailey> jsgotangco: Will you bring it up with the CC?
<jjesse> they want to move here from green screen to in the web browser
<jsgotangco> Riddell: that's really a good suggestion and makes sure the one who commits actually went through the acid test
<jsgotangco> jbailey: i need to ask the other guys (burgundavia, mdke, rob, etc.)
<jbailey> jsgotangco: And the you don't necessarily need to worry about CoC for people without SVN because it's always getting filtered through someone who has.
<Riddell> jjesse: ah https://launchpad.net/people/jouuamaoe
<jjesse> i would vote for svn access go to members
<jjesse> my subscription has been deactivated
<jsgotangco> ubuntu-members is already settled they're whitelisted then
<jsgotangco> the question now is svn access be restriected to ubuntu-members, meaning potential contributors need to become an ubuntu-member 
* jsgotangco is warming up on the thought just now...
<jjesse> based on the amount of patches they submitted to the mailing list they would be good canidates for inclusion to ubuntu-members, shows theyare dedicated
<jsgotangco> yes
<jsgotangco> kjcole: what's the plan on the cookbook?
<kjcole> Sorry, stepped away for a minute.
<kjcole> jsgotangco: Plan? We don't need no stinking plan!
<jsgotangco> that's the spirit!
<jsgotangco> bshumate: you there mate? you got any questions while we're still here?
<jsgotangco> we can wrap up now
<jsgotangco> hmm
<jsgotangco> alright
<Riddell> has any work started on the ubuntu desktop doc?
<kjcole> Honestly, I don't know.  As I mentioned at the Edubuntu meeting two days ago, I wasn't at the table when I got committed to doing it.  (I was off in another room with the LTSP people.)
<bshumate> i am here...no questions.  very professional bunch ya got here!
<bshumate> jsgotangco: can i e-mail you later with any other questions though?
<jsgotangco> Riddell: last time i looked at it, a lot of screenshots got moved
<jsgotangco> bshumate: sure dude
<kjcole> So, I'm learning about things like XML, docbook, LTSP, revision management, and oh... Edubuntu.  None of which I've used.  Jeff who's the other member of the team has at least used LTSP.
<jsgotangco> kjcole: i started with zero too last year when i joined the project really
<jsgotangco> anyways we had a good meeting
<jsgotangco> hopefully the next will have more people (mdke, burg, etc.)
<jjesse> Riddell: i've started a little on the kubuntu desktop guide but nothing ready to be commited
<kjcole> Well, I'm willing, and hopefully able, just not quite ready.  Soon though.
<jsgotangco> i'll post the minutes tommorow
<jsgotangco> next meeting in 2 weeks, 22:00UTC!!!!
<jjesse> keep the launchpad calendar updated
<kjcole> See ya.
<jsgotangco> oh crap dec. 2
<jsgotangco> i'll be in seoul
<jsgotangco> jeezz
<jsgotangco> anways
<jsgotangco> dec. 2, 2200UTC!
<jsgotangco> adjourned!
<Riddell> jjesse: would you be able to commit anything?  just so we have a template to play with for setting up the packaging?
<Riddell> bah
#ubuntu-meeting 2005-11-26
<redbass> hi
<redbass> anyone can help me?
<Seveas> redbass, #ubuntu is the support channel
<redbass> ok tnx
<redbass> but there are none i that!
* jsgotangco is going to sleep
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Seveas] : gendas: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingAgendas | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event  | Logs: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ | 22 Nov 22:00 UTC:  Community Council | 23 Nov 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 24 Nov 14:00 UTC: Dapper Development Status
<smurf> Note: I'm not feeling too well and will therefore have to miss todays' CC meeting. I support JuliusBloch's membership application.
<\sh> smurf: CC is tomorrow
<\sh> or?
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:robitaille] : Agendas: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingAgendas | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event  | Logs: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ | 22 Nov 22:00 UTC:  Community Council | 23 Nov 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 23 Nov 14:30 UTC: Accessibility Team | 24 Nov 14:00 UTC: Dapper Development Status
<Seveas> \sh, yeah tomorrow
#ubuntu-meeting 2005-11-27
<MagicFab> I have a question about the CC tonight
<MagicFab> Is it OK to invite people from local orgs related to OSS, Linux ?
<ogra> MagicFab, its a public meeting ...
<ogra> invite whoever you want
<MagicFab> tks., just checking
<\sh> good evening
<sivang> evening \sh , early a bit no?
<sivang> (+1hr before meeting)
<\sh> really?
<sivang> let's see 10UTC = midnight israel time, meaning one more hour to go
<\sh> someone banged my wlan
<sivang> \sh: you mean, broke into it?
<\sh> no..same signalstrength, same channel, and my laptop here switched between the networks...the other one is closed...and mine is only secured by macaddresses
<\sh> oh yeah 22utc
<\sh> damn
<ajmitch> hm?
<ajmitch> which meeting?
<ajmitch> ah, CC, nothing for me to worry about today :)
<Seveas> T minus 52 minutes
* Seveas prepares his notes
<Treenaks> Seveas: *BOOM*  ?
* ajmitch definitely can't make it to the dapper development status meeting
<ajmitch> 3am NZDT is painful
<ogra_dinner> not in germany
<Seveas> ajmitch, just go to bed early and wake up at 2:45
<ajmitch> hah
<Seveas> no one will notice you're not dressed :)
<Treenaks> Seveas: he's not jdub
<Seveas> badgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerbadgerMUSHROOM
<Treenaks> cloud?
<ajmitch> I've got work a few hours after that
<ogra_dinner> shhhnaike
<Seveas> :)
<Ju> Hi everybody
<MagicFab> Hello - I figured I'd better be early
<Seveas> 33 minutes to go :)
<MagicFab> Yeah. I have to leave in 2hrs. though :( seing the last CC log is over 6 hrs. ;)
<Seveas> no way
<Seveas> little over 3 hours iirc
<Seveas> but this onw ill be *much* shorter
<Ju> just to know is there an irc contact for ubotu ? cool be nice to have an instance for locateam chans
<Treenaks> Ju: I think it's Seveas ;)
<Seveas> you can easily set one up - apt-get install blootbot
<Seveas> Treenaks, *for ubotu*
<Treenaks> blootbot? :)
<Ju> ok, thanks
<Treenaks> did a Dutch guy write it?
<Seveas> no :p
<ogra> Treenaks, developing nationalism ? 
<ogra> :)
<Treenaks> ogra: no, but "bloot" is Dutch for naked :)
<Seveas> ogra, bloot is dutch for naked ;)
<ogra> hehehe
<mdke> Seveas, did you consider removing the "extra extra" type comments from ubotu?
<Seveas> mdke, I don't run that bot
<mdke> oh, who does?
<Seveas> cafuego
* mdke goes and bothers him
<Seveas> I just run the bugzilla bot
<Ju> it's a very nice bot, btw
<juliux> hi
<Seveas> hi
<mitsuhiko> hi all
<GnuKemist> hello
<juliux> hi mitsuhiko 
<mdke> hi mitsuhiko 
<mitsuhiko> hi mdke :)
<mdke> you're up to membership? jeez that is a bit overdue
<mitsuhiko> jep :)
<Seveas> GnuKemist, you're Og Maciel, right?
<GnuKemist> Seveas: yup
<GnuKemist> how are ya?
<Seveas> GnuKemist, just poke jdub to add a link to the brazilian planet on planet.ubuntu.com
<Seveas> no need for CC intervention there
<GnuKemist> Seveas: will do... actually, I had emailed him quite some time ago
<GnuKemist> but this is not what I meant
<Seveas> I don't think they'll simply let you put your planet on their servers...
<GnuKemist> I mean to have the domain point to a pc under Ubuntu.org
<GnuKemist> gotcha
<Seveas> neither will they do that
<GnuKemist> Seveas: I see
<Seveas> for locoteams there are the ubuntu-CC.org domains
<Seveas> in your case ubuntu-br.org
<GnuKemist> Seveas: will talk to segfault then
<Seveas> so poke smurfix to point planet.ubuntu-br.org and/or planeta.ubuntu-br.org there if you want that
<GnuKemist> Seveas: been trying to get a hold of smurf for some time as well
<mitsuhiko> Seveas: or zed :)
<GnuKemist> maybe tonight
<mitsuhiko> GnuKemist: smurf is ill
<Seveas> mitsuhiko, aww :/
<GnuKemist> mitsuhiko: oh... sorry to hear
<Seveas> that's not good
<Seveas> GnuKemist, are you ok with removing that item from the agenda now you know what to do?
<smurf> I'm still alive though
<GnuKemist> Seveas: sure thing  ;)
<mitsuhiko> smurf: oh. good to hear :)
<GnuKemist> smurf: hi...
<Seveas> smurf, good to see you :)
<smurf> GnuKemist: just send me mail with the server IP
<GnuKemist> smurf: what is your email?
<\sh> smurf: good to see you...hope you are feeling better then yesterday
<smurf> and don't forget to actually configure it to serve that domain *before* you tell me to turn it on, because I will check that it does ;-)
<smurf> \sh: somewhat :-/
<GnuKemist> smurf: no prob
<smurf> GnuKemist: smurf@ubuntu.com
<GnuKemist> smurf: thanx
<\sh> smurf: but it's only a cold? or something more serious?
<smurf> \sh: It is, but forget the "only". I'm not really here, other than to say +1 to juliux and mitsuhiko ...
<mitsuhiko> smurf: nice :)
<juliux> smurf, thanks
<smurf> ... and to kill ime until I get tired enough to actually fall asleep. :-/
<smurf> time
<mako> greetings
<Seveas> konnichiwa
<mako> let me switch to my laptop.. give me 1 minute
* mvo waves to mako 
<\sh> wow mako
<Simira> mako :) Long time and all that. Missed you in Montreal
<kjcole> Saluton!
<mako> i missed me in montreal
<ogra> mako, we too
<Seveas> 23:02 - any sign of elmo Kamion and/or sabdfl yet?
<elmo> I'm around
<ogra> ah
<sivang> mako !
<Seveas> welcome elmo :)
<mako> greetings everyone
<mdke> hiya
<mitsuhiko> hi all
* \sh is serving some snaks, beer, water, coffee
<GnuKemist> mako: hello
<mako> i turn into a pumpkin in a little under an hour
<kjcole> Woopsie.  23:03?  UTC? I was hoping for 22:00 UTC.
<mdke> it's 22
<MagicFab> Hello
<Seveas> it's 22:00 UTC now
<ogra> mako, could we get a pic of this ? 
<mako> ogra: absolutely not
<ogra> or better a shortcut :)
<smurf> awwww...
<elmo> sending SMS pings
<Seveas> cool, ICMP over SMS :)
<mako> elmo: thanks dude.. i was about do it :)
* Kamion is here
<Seveas> mako, David Larlet got accepted last time but had not joined ubuntu-members on launchpad back then. He has joined that team now, but needs to be approved. Would you be so kind? :)
<Kamion> my mobile's out of charge, so good luck trying to SMS me ;)
<ogra> heh
<Simira> :-)
<mako> alrighte
<kjcole> Seveas: I'm just an Ugly American.  I don't "cotton" to all this international brotherhood B.S.  (Re: UTC) ;-)
<mako> Kamion: i turn into a pumpkin in an hour so we should ge through the voting stuff quickly
<Seveas> s/last time/25 oct (http://archives.free.net.ph/message/20051026.124102.e648e759.en.html)/
* \sh is StephanHermann
* Seveas is Dennis Kaarsemaker
* smurf == Matthias Urlichs
<Kamion> ok
* mitsuhiko is Armin Ronacher
* juliux is Julius Bloch
<elmo> I'll ring sabdfl in a couple of minutes, but given his laptop is in the office and he isn't, I think we should assume he can';t make it
* ogra is Oliver Grawert
* GnuKemist is Og Maciel
* Simira is Karianne Grnningster
<mdke> matthew east
* kjcole is Kevin Cole
* Kamion is Colin Watson
* sivang is Sivan Greenberg
* MarioMeyer is Mario Meyer
* mako is Benjamin Mako Hill
* dholbach is Daniel Holbach
<Simira> Seveas : ey, I didn't even know you were you...
* david`bgk is David Larlet
<Seveas> Simira, neither did I ;)
* Ju is Julien Rottenberg
<Kamion> mpathy is again not here, so let's skip that item
<mako> alright.. it's gonna be rush rush for me since i turn into a pumpkin in one hour :)
<bhuvan> bhuvan: Bhuvaneswaran
<mhz> MauricioHernandez is here
* MagicFab is Fabian ROdriguez
<Simira> Seveas : you didn't know who you were?
<juliux> Kamion, he said that you can kick this itme
<Seveas> RolandoBlanco isn't here either
<ogra> mhz, hey ! :)
<mako> alright then, loco team introductions
<mhz> Seveas: said it is 'not possible to be here'
<Seveas> So mhz is the first on the agenda (Chilean team)
<mhz> ogra: thx for inviting me
<ogra> Seveas, what about Latin american Team ?
<Seveas> mhz, can you tell us a bit more about your team?
<mhz> yup
<Seveas> ogra, see the notes at RolandoBlanco in the proposed members
<ogra> Seveas, yes, sorry, missed it
<Seveas> mhz, then please do :)
<mhz> ChileanLoCoTeam was meant to spread Edubuntu and Ubuntu. However, in Chile, there's someone (i still can't find his email) who is using ubuntu.cl
<mako> mhz: that's an issue we can handle
<mako> smurf and jane know all about that :)
<Amaranth> i made it to one, finally!
<mhz> So, personally, I do feel 100% cmmited to Edubuntu. Mainly because, there are plenty of LUGs in LA
<mhz> and Spain
<ogra> jane == silbs, not JaneW :)
<mako> ogra: yes, sorry :)
<sivang> Amaranth: lol
<MagicFab> ubuntu-es is pretty active
<mhz> Seveas: our plans are simple, yet agressive
<mako> mhz: overlapping LUGS and loco teams are perfectly alright
<mhz> Seveas: we can work together with any LUG that wants to work hard, no problem.
<mako> people need/want local community and supporst on a number of different locality issues
<ogra> mhz is one of the most active promoters for edubuntu in whole latin america i guess
<mhz> mako: oh, i didnt know it
<mako> mhz: sure, they exist :)
* Seveas brb - fiancee yelling
<mako> Seveas: it's fine
<mdke> mhz, who is in the team?
<mako> right, what sort of membership and interest that you have
<mhz> mako: Seveas however, I am very honest and I believe LA needs much more help on educational areas than linux related. So yes, I can spread Ubuntu. Nevertheless, my passion is Edubuntu :)
<mhz> mdke: so far, Sergio Vergara (student of Chemestry), Rodrigo Morales (tecnocimiento guy who is the Biz plans guy), Victor Moral (tecnocimiento guy who is the IT expert and web developer), Me.
<mhz> the 4 of us are well commited to ICT on education 
<MagicFab> mhz: I could be liaison with Colombia
<mdke> cool
<kjcole> mhz: ICT?
<mako> mhz: well, that sounds great
<mdke> mhz, there is an Ubuntu forum on ubuntu.cl, is that anything to do with your team?
<ogra> btw, this is mostly the work of the chilenian team: http://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuCdLabelAndSlip
<mhz> However, I do participate a lot in CDSL (www.cdsl.cl) and they would help us on this. For EdubuntuChilean Tour, we have already contacted ColegioInteractivo, and institution that works with over 1000 teachers in Chile
<mako> mhz: but you should welcome to working with other people from chile who want to tackle other issues
<mhz> mdke: nop
<mako> mhz: so that we don't *have* to have competing locos :)
<mdke> mhz, it looks quite well developed
<mako> mhz: if you have a primary intersting one area or two, that's great
<mhz> mdke: so far, I only know them via forum. I have never klnown of any InstallFest organized by them
<mhz> mako: absolutely
<mako> but it's good to be willing to work with people have have other ubuntu interests
<mdke> mhz, perhaps you can join forces with the organisers of it
<mako> cool
<mhz> mako: the diff. is how commited people are in the end, on daily basis.
<mhz> mako: sure, I am trying to get his leader email (they were off line for long period)
<mdke> great stuff
<mhz> CDSL and us, are organizing install fest for next saturday
<mako> great stuff
<Seveas> cool, install fests rock
<mhz> mako: and so far, we have not heard from them. I guess it's mainly because they live in diff areas (we are divided by regions)
<mdke> mhz, did you try posting to the forum?
<mhz> yup, last week
<mako> well, in interests of time, we shoudl move on
<mdke> good
<mhz> no answer yet
<mhz> but i know i will
<mdke> mako is going orange
<ogra> whhops
<mhz> Seveas: we are planing also HowTo Fests
<mitsuhiko> hehe
<mdke> mako, you wanna move on?
<kjcole> mhz: Nice. Keep good records of those.  Might come in handy for others.
<Seveas> mhz, sounds great, good luck with all that and when you have other interesting stuff to report, don't hesitate
<mako> yes, lets do it :)
<Seveas> next would be rolando blanco
<mako> new member candidates
<Seveas> but he can't make tuesdays, can we schedule a meeting on wednesday for once?
<mhz> kjcole: sure. At least on IRC I am reporting as much as we can :)
<mako> Seveas: we can :)
<MagicFab> mhz: pictures, pictures, pictures :)
<Seveas> mako, great, shall I do that for next meeting and coordinate it a bit with him?
<mako> Seveas: we need to run it by other people
<mhz> MagicFab: sure. form next saturdays
<mako> Seveas: we also need tdo shift the times back and forth
<mako> Seveas: we've been having too many late meeting times
<mako> Seveas: but we can do that at the end of hte meeting
<mako> lets move on
<Seveas> juliux, you're up
<mdke> JuliusBloch
<juliux> yes i am here
<mako> juliux: alright, do you know the drill?
<ogra> juliux, youre no member yet ? o_O
<juliux> ogra, no
<kjcole> Mako: Late is a relative term. ;-) (5:22 PM here)
<Seveas> please give a 3-line intro about what you did, what your plans are and your vision on Ubuntu
<juliux> at the moment many people in Germany heard something about ubuntu, but don't know what  exactly it is. my dream is that everybody knows what ubuntu is. so i have  decided to present ubuntu on fairs in Germany and tell the people what ubuntu is and to make my dream a little bit more real.
* ogra wonders if 3 lines are enough ...
<mdke> nice wiki page
<mhz> :)
<Seveas> mitsuhiko, bhuvan, mhz please prepare such a 3-liner so you can paste it when you're up
<mhz> okidoki
<\sh> oh...juliux and mitsuhiko are great workers in things like ubuntu and promoting it
<bhuvan> Seveas, ok
<juliux> in the past i have do many support for ubuntu in Germany
<mitsuhiko> Seveas: i've prepared one :)
<ogra> juliux is organizing a lot in the german community ... preparing booths and presence at fairs
<Seveas> awesome
<ogra> he's busy in #edubuntu as well
<mdke> great work juliux 
<juliux> thanks mdke 
<Kamion> I'm impressed by the pile of stuff there
* Seveas too
<\sh> he is one of the founding members of ubuntu Deutschland e.V. and works on wiki.ubuntuusers.de...he is awesome
<juliux> hm i think i can do more, but i have to study
<GnuKemist> juliux: if you don't mind me ask, how do you pay for your travelling?
<\sh> (same applies to mitsuhiko)
<juliux> GnuKemist, i paid it my self
<GnuKemist> juliux: wow
<mdke> wiki.ubuntusers.de is exceptional
<GnuKemist> juliux: I have done the same as far as buying and burning CDs to give out...  awsome!
<ogra> he organized my talk at linuxtag.de at dec 3rd 
<mdke> oh dear
<juliux> ogra, no linuxtag.de is the one in march next year
<mako> juliux: have you been involved in the gnome community fo much longer?
<mdke> unleashing ogra on the public
<mdke> -1
<mhz> Seveas: my 3 lines are ready
<mitsuhiko> mine too :)
<juliux> mako, yes
<\sh> he convienced me to do a "Photo With A MOTU" at the Essener Linuxtage fair ,)
<juliux> mako, the last few years
<mdke> \sh, LOL
<dholbach> \sh: hehe :)
<juliux> \sh, psst
<mitsuhiko> hehe
<dholbach> \sh: he did the "interview with a motu" too :)
<juliux> ogra, the right url for december is http://essen.linux-tage.linec.de/
<ogra> mdke, come on, i'm not *this* ugly :)
<mdke> ogra, :D
<mako> juliux: great, i'm glad that you've moved over to this community :)
<Seveas> http://wiki.ubuntuusers.de/Spiele_Ubuntu <-- you don't mention xmoto, kobo deluxe and xgala ;)
<Seveas> but that wiki is indeed exceptional
<Seveas> VERY informative
<Kamion> ok, happy to approve juliux if elmo and mako are
<mako> right
<mitsuhiko> Seveas: Spiele is outdated, we move it into the german holarse wiki
<ogra> even if i develop a bread of wisdom now (according to makos definition)
<mdke> Seveas, that wiki is flair
<mitsuhiko> AFIAK
<mako> juliux: i appreciate you contributions
<juliux> thanks a lot
<elmo> ack
<ogra> *beard
<mako> you've got a thumbs up from me
<GnuKemist> juliux: congrats!
<mako> sounds good
<mdke> welcome juliux 
<dholbach> excellent, juliux :)
<ogra> congratds juliux 
<mako> Armin Ronacher
<mitsuhiko> juhuu :)
<Seveas> juliux, welcome aboard, don't forget to do the launchpad/signing ritual
<juliux> Seveas, i have done this
<mitsuhiko> Since the beginning of november
<mitsuhiko> 2004 i'm ubuntu user. One month after my first contact with ubuntu and linux
<mitsuhiko> Since Dezember the Admin of ubuntuusers.de beside Sascha Morr.
<mitsuhiko> I work on the Portal Software and try to answer user questions. My account
<mitsuhiko> there is named "blackbird" and with about 3000 posts i'm one of the most
<\sh> juliux: finally u made it, dude :) congratulations :) welcome aboard :)
<mitsuhiko> active authors.
<mdke> mitsuhiko is a god
<mitsuhiko> lol
<mdke> he has written loads of cool wiki things for the german wiki
<\sh> yeah...he is young, he is fresh, he works for ubuntu even during his schooltime...
<mdke> and is very helpful in the locoteam area in sharing ideas and such
<mitsuhiko> \sh: *psst* don't tell ^^
<mako> mitsuhiko: that's impressive :)
<mako> not the schooltime thing
<\sh> and he is friendly, community orientated..and the best what you can get for ubuntu...smurf, juliux, mitsuhiko, and sascha are the base of the most of the ubuntu work in germany...
<mako> i'm actually in a research group meeting RIGHT NOW :)
<mitsuhiko> :)
<mako> (but my group all uses ubuntu so it's tolerated)
<juliux> \sh, there are much more in germany
<\sh> juliux: i know...but you are one of the big guns
<mako> mitsuhiko: so ubuntuusers.de has been around for a while, right?
<mako> how long have you been at it?
<mitsuhiko> mako: since Dec. 2004
<mitsuhiko> user founded it 2 days after the warty release
<mitsuhiko> so. somewhere in october 2004
<Seveas> Anmeldungsdatum  	19.11.2004
<Seveas> (according to the forum profile :)
<mitsuhiko> Seveas: jep. that's true :)
<smurf> mitsuhiko has been very active for quite some time, I'd be happy to sponsor hi for membership just on his consistency ;-)
<mako> wow,
<mdke> yeah the guy is good
<mako> smurf: that's good to hear :)
<Seveas> I think it says enough :)
<mdke> long overdue for membership
<Seveas> Beitrge insgesamt  	 3182 [2.85% aller Beitrge / 8.62 Beitrge pro Tag] 
<Kamion> ok, sure, I'm happy, plenty of material and recommendations
<elmo> ack too
<mako> looks like sustained and sustained contributions to me
<mako> looks great
<Seveas> mitsuhiko, welcome aboard
<GnuKemist> mitsuhiko: congrats!
<mako> looks great :)
<mitsuhiko> thx
<mako> bhuvan: hey there
<mako> i think you're up
<\sh> mitsuhiko: congratulations :) 
<bhuvan> yes
<juliux> mitsuhiko, congratds
<bhuvan> wiki page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bhuvan. I belong to docteam. I've submitted many patches to docteam svn repository. I've also contributed couple of wiki pages. I've also made changes/corrections to many wiki pages.
<bhuvan> i'm one of the maintainer for ServerGuide for Dapper. I've already prepared the  spec and got the appropral from team members.  w.u.c/ServerGuide
<bhuvan> Currently, I'm preparing the server guide for Dapper with the help of my team mates.
<mako> bhuvan: where are you from?
<bhuvan> india
<mako> bhuvan: where about?
<bhuvan> india, chennai (chennai is a metro in south india)
<mdke> i would like to support bhuvan too. He has been helping around the docteam for a while now, and has submitted several helpful patches. He is enthusiastic and has excellent team-working. he learns fast and is patient, and is contributing steadily in the docteam
<mako> bhuvan: sure, i know :)
<bhuvan> mako, cool
* Simira gives a + to India
<mako> mdke: thanks, that's helpful
<Seveas> bhuvan, any other interests beside documentation?
<Kamion> bhuvan: how much of the server guide do you think can be sourced (modified or otherwise) from existing documentation?
<mako> bhuvan: how long have you been involved? where do you want to take ubuntu?
<bhuvan> i'm interested in MOTU. but, as i wish to learn new stuff, i prefer documentation for some time before moving to MOTU
<Kamion> (er that sounds like a bit of a leading question, that's not the intent, just a simple question)
<mdke> Kamion, we will be relying heavily on the debian guide i imagine
<bhuvan> Kamion, so far i've referred redhat. sure, we may make use of debian document
<Kamion> yeah, that or the HOWTOs (minus all the "if you're running <this> system from 1997, do this, otherwise ..." stuff)
<\sh> bhuvan: why the redhat documentation?
<mako> i would be surprised if the debian document didn't offer us good things we could use
<mdke> oh btw, if you want an idea of the quality of his work, check out the SubVersion and Mailman wiki pages that he has done
<mdke> mako, from what I've seen, it definitely does
<bhuvan> mako, for the past 3 months. i've been using ubuntu for the past 2 months
<mako> nice
<Seveas> it's good that people who are new to ubuntu immediately contribute
<Seveas> shows dedication :)
<mako> wait.. you've been writing documents for longer than youv'e been using it
<Kamion> hmm, I could proofread that, but it's basically clear and simple documentation, and my command of Indian languages is hardly excellent so ... :)
<bhuvan> Seveas, i'm used to debian though
<mdke> Kamion, for a first and immediate contribution, it is so much better than a lot of wiki pages that spring up :)
<\sh> Kamion: come on learn hindi :)
<Kamion> mdke: yeah, certainly
<Kamion> (BTW Subversion is spelt thus, no capital V)
<mdke> yeah that looks like some fake camelcase ;)
<bhuvan> Kamion, no!
<bhuvan> seems, it must be spelled SubVersion
<bhuvan> one of the SVN developer suggested that change
<Seveas> it should be spelled bazaar-ng ;)
<\sh> .oO(correct spelling should be subVersion, and bzr is now called DomVersion)
<mako> bhuvan: well, i'm thrilled with your contributions
* mitsuhiko is wispering "git"
<bhuvan> mako, ok
<mako> and, as Seveas said, i'm happy to see you contributing already
<Kamion> bhuvan: odd, that's not the way it was spelled when I used to be on subversion-devel, and it's not how http://subversion.tigris.org/ spells it
<Kamion> but anyway
<bhuvan> Kamion, ok
<mdke> bhuvan, do you have commit access for the docteam svn repo yet?
<Kamion> detailed quibbles aside :-), I'm fine with bhuvan for membership
<bhuvan> as i work for CollabNet, i referred my developer over here .. he suggested couple of changes to that document, its one of them ..
<elmo> me too
<Seveas> bhuvan, welcome on the Ubuntu ship
<Kamion> maybe there's been a policy change
<GnuKemist> bhuvan: congrats!
<Seveas> congratulations!
<bhuvan> mdke, not yet
<mhz> bhuvan: congrats
<ogra> congrats bhuvan 
<Seveas> MagicFab, you're next
<bhuvan> oh, thankx
<mako> bhuvan: personally, i'd prefer to see a little more sustained contribution
<mdke> bhuvan, right let's sort that out. elmo is that to be rt'ed?
<\sh> congrats bhuvan 
<Seveas> (for the people who are puzzled, look 6cm down on the agenda)
<juliux> congrats bhuvan 
<mako> but yeah, that's great :)
* mitsuhiko too
<elmo> mdke: yeah
<mako> bhuvan: so stay involved dude :)
<MagicFab> I am here
<bhuvan> sure, thankx
<mdke> mako, you will, I have the feeling that this guy is here to stay
<mako> bhuvan: keep up the good work :)
<Seveas> MagicFab, the 3-line introduction please
* ogra tries to measure 6cm on the display ...
<mdke> bhuvan, nice work
<mako> Seveas: how else is on the stack?
<Seveas> FabianRodriguez (Wasn't there 8/11) - Confirming I'll be there as MagicFab - -- FabinRodrguez 2005-11-22 15:48:13
<MagicFab> Mhh... I have a bit more than 3 lines
<mako> i gotta run in like 5 minutes
<MagicFab> WikiPage:https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FabianRodriguez - stuff I find significant in bold. I am originally from Colombia, have been living in Quebec Canada since I was 16 while visiting family there yearly - so I've known about the horrors of remote support of proprietary software, webcams etc. :) You may remember me from UBZ when I told the true story of having converted my parents' PC to Ubuntu only.
<mdke> bhuvan, can you come into -doc for a while?
<bhuvan> mdke, ok
<ogra> Seveas, doesnt that depend on the DPI setting ? 
<Seveas> mako, only this and a few non-voting things
* \sh was looking 6cm down..and saw...his panel
<Seveas> ogra, sort-of
<mako> Seveas: perfect
<MagicFab> I currently work full-time as an Open Source software solutions consultant, focusing on security and migration issues in Montreal. Curiously, I am the first link in U. Marketplace - NorthAmerica :) I have strong links to the local community and I am mostly interested in advocacy/marketing (events, etc.), local support & training and new users introduction / migration to Gnu/Linux. 
<mako> MagicFab: have you been doing much ubuntu business?
<MagicFab> I'd say Debian so far. My first Ubuntu server proposal is out this week :)
<mako> that's nice
* Kamion would be interested to hear how the marketing team's work is progressing; haven't heard much from that side
<MagicFab> Ah, wait, several custom training sessions, yes.
* mako nods to Kamion 
<Seveas> MagicFab was at UBZ, any UBZ-ists you talked to there MagicFab ?
<mitsuhiko> Kamion: i'm waiting for some work of the art team
<MagicFab> Sivang, at a BOF
<mdke> elmo, what do you need, email address, gpg # and preferred nick?
<MagicFab> any UBZers here ? I personally know hub (not here) - also go to meet Corey Burger
<elmo> mdke: s/nick/username/ but yes, that'll work
<Simira> MagicFab : a lot of us were there
<kjcole> MagicFab: I was there, but more of a lurker...
<mako> MagicFab: many of your contributions have been in the last month or so
<ogra> MagicFab, i was there
<\sh> MagicFab: many of us ... ogra, \sh, kamion, elmo ....
<mako> which is great, but i like to look for slightly more long term contributions
<mako> MagicFab: do you have any testimonials from existing developers?
<MagicFab> mako: I've been on since 4.10
<mako> MagicFab: right, i understand you've been using ubuntu until 4.10
<mako> but our job is to recogized a series of sustained and significant contributions
<Amaranth> whoops, gotta go
* Simira too
<Simira> g'night
<mako> Simira: good night
<ogra> night Simira 
<GnuKemist> night
<MagicFab> mako: well, I do this full time and some of the stuff has not been online - like advocacy in Colombia
<mako> MagicFab: you do what full time?
<MagicFab> mako: OSS consulting, training and migration from Win to Linux
<mdke> :))
<mako> yes, i understand that, and i understand your committment to ubuntu
<Seveas> MagicFab, what we are looking for are contributions to Ubuntu - not to OSS in general
<mako> but i'm trying to gague contributions to the ubuntu community
<MagicFab> I'd say 1/2 of what I do is Mozilla related, 1/2 is now Ubuntu
<mako> MagicFab: ok.. but the nature and extent of those is not known to me or obvious from my wiki page
<mako> sorry, from your wikipage
<mako> MagicFab: do you have any other members who can give you testimonials
<MagicFab> sivang could, he's here
<MagicFab> Some of you may see me on IRC
<MagicFab> Corey Burger too
<Seveas> I never really saw you in #ubuntu actually 
<MagicFab> ONe of my main projects is a doc to accompany Ubuntu CDs, a work in progress for more than a year
<mako> Seveas: that's fine though, you rarely see me there either :)
<mako> using irc is by no means a requirement
<mako> MagicFab: cool :)
<mako> that sounds great
<MagicFab> https://secure.fabianrodriguez.com/files/ubuntu-fr.pdf
<Seveas> mako, no but he said that some would, and I'm in there 'sometimes' :)
<mako> MagicFab: in any case, i'd suggest we postpone this until you can collect a few testimontials
<mako> Seveas: sorry, missed that
<Ubuntuser_BA> Hello Folks/1
<mako> MagicFab: and keep working on the directly commmunity engaged projects you've started in the last month or so
<david`bgk> MagicFab, why don't you get yann and me in touch for french documentation ?
<MagicFab> ? last month ? 
<david`bgk> yes for your CDs accompany
<mako> MagicFab: the stuff that is down with "oct 2005"
<mako> in any case
<ogra> hmm, is there a reason we skipped mhz's membership Seveas ? he's above MagicFab on the agenda
<david`bgk> we're interested in this
<mhz> Seveas: Can I paste my lines once last candidate is introduced? when you asked me to introduce myself I thought that to be invited here is because work was already recognized :)
<MagicFab> Well, I can't see how it's considered recent or last month
<Kamion> MagicFab: mako's referring to the marketing team work I think?
<mako> yes
<mako> MagicFab: i'm not suggesting that ALL of your contributiosn started last month
<Seveas> ogra, he didn't put himself on the list and the 'covered in recent meetings' is usually not treated, but he made a note there
<Kamion> if the public speaking work goes back some time, I'm happy to consider that a contribution; we've taken members on the basis of advocacy before
<MagicFab> david`bgk: if you're in ubuntu-fr I think we're already in touch
<ogra> mhz, wait until mako/Seveas call you
<mako> i'm suggesting that some of the most directly community-engaged projects, like marketing team stuff, is relatively recent
<mhz> ogra: ok, thx.
<mako> MagicFab: i'm more comfortable postponing this
<ogra> Seveas, i dont see MagicFab either in the above list
<sivang> Seveas: MagicFab also participated in a BOF and spec I was in charge of and gave some good ideas
<mako> MagicFab: it may just be that you need to do a better job documenting this 
<Seveas> sivang, nice, put that in a wikipage
<mako> yes
<mako> and we need to do this before the meeting
<david`bgk> MagicFab, yes of course we are, you have been added to the planet a week ago
<MagicFab> mako: I'd love to - I spent quite some time on the my wiki page. How can I improve that ?
<mako> MagicFab: work with me in the next two weeks
<sivang> Seveas: I should add it?
<mako> MagicFab: and lets see how we can improve it
<mako> i'm happy to do it offline
<mako> right now, i'm going to turn into a pumpkin
<Seveas> mako, wait
<mako> Seveas: ?
<Seveas> one more candidate (I missed it on the agenda)
<mdke> mhz
<mako> right
<mhz> mdke: wait until Seveas calls me?
<mako> please, go ahead, i'll reconnect ASAP and comment on the log.. take votes from the other two :)
<Seveas> mhz, your wikipage mentions very little Ubuntu contributions
<mako> if i'm lucky, it will be in ~10 minutes
<Kamion> I've seen mhz around on the Edubuntu project for quite some months
<mako> otherwise, 2.5h
<mdke> mhz, go ahead now
<mako> if you get kamion and elmo to agree, i doubt you will get a fight from me :)
<mhz> Seveas: Debian user for 3 years and Ubuntu since warty. My first commitment is to freedom of access because knowledge is key for sustainable development. Education is one of the most important areas to achieve such development. Ergo, Ed/Ubuntu is the key actor in my plans:
<mhz> Edubuntu Chilean Tour + Fairs of free Technology.
<mhz> So far I edit some wiki stuff in edubuntu.org, I keep www.tecnocimiento.cl/EdubuntuChile and I am coordinating the EdubuntuCdLabelAndCdCover and EdubuntuStudyContents.
<mhz> Also, I have installed Ubuntu in 2 medium sized-companies servers and over 25 desktops, and edubuntu in over 16 machines now, 3 of them at a university.
<Kamion> although I'm not sure the wiki page reflects that as much as it might do
<mhz> On december one article I wrote on Ubuntu for Education, for a Education Magazine, will be handed to over 1000 schools. Also, I'll present Ubuntu and Edubuntu on a local TV show for teens.
<mako> alright guys.. ttys
<mhz> I am sure ogra and JaneW can give good testimonials of my contributions, so far.
<ogra> Seveas, he did nearly all of the wiki stuff for edubuntu, is very active in the edubuntu community
<mako> alright guys, see you soon
<Kamion> FWIW I tend to skip over the "life story" bits of people's wiki pages :)
<mdke> bye mako 
<Seveas> ogra, that's a nice + for him
<ogra> he does a great job promoting edubuntu in latin america
<mhz> Kamion: thx for that
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-11-20
<dsas> @schedule
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 22 Nov 20:00: Edubuntu | 25 Nov 18:00: Xubuntu | 28 Nov 16:00: LoCo Team | 29 Nov 12:00: Edubuntu
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-11-21
* netjoined: irc.freenode.net -> brown.freenode.net
<nixternal> @schedule chicago
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Chicago: 22 Nov 14:00: Edubuntu | 25 Nov 12:00: Xubuntu | 28 Nov 10:00: LoCo Team | 29 Nov 06:00: Edubuntu
<stgraber> @schedule Zurich
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Zurich: 22 Nov 21:00: Edubuntu | 25 Nov 19:00: Xubuntu | 28 Nov 17:00: LoCo Team | 29 Nov 13:00: Edubuntu
<mruiz> @schedule Santiago
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Santiago: 22 Nov 17:00: Edubuntu | 25 Nov 15:00: Xubuntu | 28 Nov 13:00: LoCo Team | 29 Nov 09:00: Edubuntu
<stgraber> yes, fine for tomorrow, it will be easy for me to be here :)
<cbx33> @schedule
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 22 Nov 20:00: Edubuntu | 25 Nov 18:00: Xubuntu | 28 Nov 16:00: LoCo Team | 29 Nov 12:00: Edubuntu
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-11-22
<highvoltage> @schedule
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 22 Nov 20:00: Edubuntu | 25 Nov 18:00: Xubuntu | 28 Nov 16:00: LoCo Team | 29 Nov 12:00: Edubuntu
<licio> rodarvus, http://www.flickr.com/photos/25563799@N00/295938759/
<stgraber> @schedule
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 22 Nov 20:00: Edubuntu | 25 Nov 18:00: Xubuntu | 28 Nov 16:00: LoCo Team | 29 Nov 12:00: Edubuntu
<stgraber> @schedule Zurich
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Zurich: 22 Nov 21:00: Edubuntu | 25 Nov 19:00: Xubuntu | 28 Nov 17:00: LoCo Team | 29 Nov 13:00: Edubuntu
<sbalneav> @schedule
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 22 Nov 20:00: Edubuntu | 25 Nov 18:00: Xubuntu | 28 Nov 16:00: LoCo Team | 29 Nov 12:00: Edubuntu
<sbalneav> @schedule winnipeg
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Winnipeg: 22 Nov 14:00: Edubuntu | 25 Nov 12:00: Xubuntu | 28 Nov 10:00: LoCo Team | 29 Nov 06:00: Edubuntu
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Current meeting: Edubuntu | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 25 Nov 18:00 UTC: Xubuntu | 28 Nov 16:00 UTC: LoCo Team | 29 Nov 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu
<sbalneav> PARTAY PARTAY PARTAY
<pygi> sbalneav: not really, sadly
<sbalneav> It's always a party :)
<sbalneav> Hey, get your book prices?
<pygi> no, and I don't think I will even bother anymore
<pygi> sbalneav: btw. read planet ... you should get new libburn any day now
<sbalneav> Howcome?  Why all the glumness?
<sbalneav> Something bad happen in your personal life?
<pygi> nop
<sbalneav> So, what's up then, budy?
<sbalneav> s/budy/buddy/
<pygi> nothing, ignore me ^_^
<sbalneav> phht.
<ajmitch> you seem so very happy
<pygi> ajmitch: yea, right ....
<lotusleaf> "I feel pretty,Oh, so pretty,I feel pretty and witty and bright!And I pity Any girl who isn't me tonight. I feel charming,Oh, so charming It's alarming how charming I feel!And so pretty"
<Seveas> /pity lotusleaf 
<lotusleaf> Seveas: and so pretty!
<lotusleaf> and briiiiiiiiiiight!
* lotusleaf throws half eaten wing @ Seveas
<Seveas> And so pretty, that I hardly can beleive I'm real
<Seveas> See the pretty girl in th mirrot there?
<Seveas> What mirror where?
<lotusleaf> "Who can that attractive girl be?Such a pretty face,Such a pretty dress,Such a pretty smile,Such a pretty me!I feel stunningAnd entrancing,Feel like running and dancing for joy,For I'm lovedBy a pretty wonderful boy!"
<lotusleaf> engage!
<highvoltage> hi
<highvoltage> I can't give any update from my side since I've been pretty much solidly away for the last two weeks, mostly been out of town working on some of our projects.
<highvoltage> who else is here for Edubuntu meeting? pygi, sbalneav, LaserJock, rodarvus?
<stgraber> me
<highvoltage> stgraber: great!
<LaserJock> I'm here
* pygi doubtfully raises hand
<highvoltage> the big stars of the show can't be here, as sbalneav pointed out in #edubuntu. ogra and RichEd are traveling.
<LaserJock> who's running the show?
<highvoltage> not sure, I'm trying to get someone to jump up and direct :)
* highvoltage opens the agenda
<rodarvus> highvoltage, I'm not available (or barely, actually)
<LaserJock> ok, lets start out with tech update then?
* Burgwork is sort of him
<highvoltage> ok, there's no additional topics, and no member candidates.
<highvoltage> LaserJock: ok
<highvoltage> LaserJock: do you have updates for us?
<highvoltage> ah, another one. yay!
<willvdl> hi all, sorry I'm late
<sbalneav> I have a couple, when it's my turn.
<LaserJock> well, my spec for edubuntu menus is sitting in "Review"
<highvoltage> LaserJock: shoot
<LaserJock> but it looks like it should go pretty well
<LaserJock> I'm able to get alacarte to play with my menus :-)
<LaserJock> I just want to encourage everybody to look over the Feisty specs
<highvoltage> kewl :)
<highvoltage> LaserJock: link?
<LaserJock> https://launchpad.net/people/ogra/+specs generally
<LaserJock> but he needs to add some
<highvoltage> ok
<LaserJock> sbalneav will no doubt talk about some of the coolest ones
<sbalneav> phht
<LaserJock> but of particular interest to me is Edubuntu on 2 CDs
<highvoltage> heh
<highvoltage> oh yes, that is quite interesting.
<willvdl> can someone remind me what Pending Approval refers to?
<sbalneav> Means it isn't an approved spec yet
<LaserJock> that means it's ready for final approval by the tech board I beleve
<highvoltage> willvdl: TB needs to give the final OK
<willvdl> OK, I thought scp was approved
<LaserJock> we have a "lets make SCP rock" spec
<highvoltage> willvdl: sometimes something is approved, and then a problem comes up, and it's defered and it has to go through part of the process again
<willvdl> ok, got it
<LaserJock> the 2 CDs spec is https://blueprints.launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/edubuntu-on-two-cds
<LaserJock> basically we are going to get a 2nd CD that will hold most of the educational stuff
<LaserJock> and the 1st CD will have the base services stuff like LTSP, ldap, etc.
<LaserJock> we'll need quite a bit of educational community help for that one
<highvoltage> noted
<LaserJock> so lots of goodies
<LaserJock> I'll hand the mic over to sbalneav for ltsp, et. al
<willvdl> cool
<sbalneav> kthxomglolbbq
<sbalneav> OK
<nixternal> hello!
<sbalneav> hey nixternal
<highvoltage> hi nixternal 
<nixternal> my sister came over to use my washer and dryer and brought my neice and nephew, aka the terroistas
* nixternal catches up
<sbalneav> So, good progress on ltsp-persistent-home, which oddly enough, merged into a temporary home spec, so go figure.
<LaserJock> hah
<sbalneav> Did more testing on the pam module, seems to work.
<highvoltage> sbalneav: BBQ?
<sbalneav> Sound: ogra packaged up pulse, I'm in the process of setting up a feisty box, so should have more to report on that next week.  Things look promising
<highvoltage> sbalneav: do you know if we make any use of that script that was posted to the list?
<highvoltage> what is pulse?
<Burgwork> sbalneav: by temporary home, we are talking guest accounts?
<sbalneav> Refresh my memory?  Which script?
<Burgwork> highvoltage: sound server
<sbalneav> Pulse audio, the new name for polypaudio
<highvoltage> aaah, ok. I still know it by polyaudio.
<sbalneav> Burgwork: yeah.  the pam_mkhomedir modules been hacked up to actually remove the home dir as well on logout, if configured accordingly
<Burgwork> sbalneav: you rock
<highvoltage> Burgwork: I would've said that to him, but I think he gets tired of hearing it all the time
<sbalneav> fat-clients: we should be in a position to test that one next week.
<sbalneav> Might be completed REAL soon :)
<highvoltage> great.
<willvdl> woot
<highvoltage> sbalneav: sorry, fat clients with the ldap auth, or diskless fat clients?
<sbalneav> And, as well, integration of ssh and xdmcp localdevice methods moves on apace.  inotify + xatoms = win.
<sbalneav> highvoltage: for now, just the diskless fat client.  We'll add ldap auth once moquist gets a little farther along with his stuff.
<highvoltage> sbalneav: ok, that's great, that's the most important part for me
<Burgwork> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Desktop/FastUserSwitching <-- this is also something interesting
<highvoltage> sbalneav: I've had real headaches last week trying to enable local disk access with xdmcp
<Burgwork> we should probably look at the for the scp stuff
<sbalneav> So, that was my activity this week.
<highvoltage> sbalneav: ended up using ltsp 4.2 in the end :/
<sbalneav> highvoltage: it's impossible at the moment.  But I'll be fixing that shortly :)
<highvoltage> anything else for technical?
<highvoltage> sbalneav: I bow to your coolness
<sbalneav> :)
<LaserJock> well, I might bring up one technical/community thing
<LaserJock> was kinda hoping ogra and RichEd were here
<highvoltage> LaserJock: I gathered as much :/
<LaserJock> but I was thinking about our development community
<willvdl> shoot
<highvoltage> cbx33 isn't here, I don't suppose there's any artwork issues/updates?
<LaserJock> we've always had ogra as the super uber edu developer
<LaserJock> but with so many specs and cool things we can see on the horizon with Edubuntu
<willvdl> and hopefully will have more
<nixternal> speaking of artwork, is there an artwork team for edubuntu as well?
<LaserJock> I think it's important that we grow our development community
<LaserJock> nixternal: yep
<LaserJock> kinda
<nixternal> ok, i figured the kinda part
* ajmitch is vaguely on the edge of the development community, with stuff at UDS :)
<willvdl> LaserJock, Jono Bacon at Canonical is working on a nice plan for revitalising LoCo
<nixternal> if there are some packaging things to do for edubuntu, let me know, i am willing to help out there
<sbalneav> Well, we've attracted Matt Oquist, and David Trask is coming on board, so that's going to help.
<LaserJock> yes
<nixternal> the handbook, is there still a management team for that?  i haven't heard anything status wise from it, and I have been messing around more with the layout and xslt stuff
<LaserJock> so I see we have some people around
<LaserJock> nixternal: maybe wait until the doc section of the meeting :-)
<willvdl> nixternal, coming up
<highvoltage> LaserJock: do you have suggestions? perhaps it should be an active targeted drive. ie, needs be identified, and then we lure in people who could meet those needs
<nixternal> roger dodger
<LaserJock> what I think maybe we need is some Roadmap or organization
<LaserJock> so that people can start working on things
<sbalneav> I have to pop out for 10 minutes or so... jammed printer here at work.  Save the handbook till when I get back.
<willvdl> highvoltage, jono has an idea behind breaking down tasks into big one and bite size tasks
<LaserJock> willvdl: exactly
<willvdl> that way it more attractive for new members to slowly get involved
<LaserJock> so while the guys at UDS come up with some really awesome specs
<highvoltage> willvdl: that will be handy
<willvdl> ... get motivated, learn the processes
<willvdl> and build karma
<highvoltage> sorry, under what topic are we now? community?
<LaserJock> it can be difficult for people who didn't attend to get involved
<willvdl> we spoke about it at AllHAnds
<LaserJock> I'm still in Technical
<LaserJock> but merging into community ;-)
<highvoltage> LaserJock: ok
<willvdl> LaserJock, that is why we need to lower the barrier to emtry for people to get involved
<LaserJock> so I just wanted to kick it around
<willvdl> I agree with you completely
<LaserJock> willvdl: well, I'm not exactly sure that there is so much a barrier
<LaserJock> as just not a lot of info
<LaserJock> but we haven't traditionally needed a lot I don't think
<willvdl> I dunno, sometimes it's hard to get involved in an ongoing process
<LaserJock> we've mostly been Ubuntu+LTSP
<willvdl> when the leader of that process can break down more "trivial" or external tasks
<LaserJock> which requires a lot of technical skill and we've had that with ogra and sbalneav , etc.
<LaserJock> but things like the Student Control Panel
<willvdl> and now we'll be concentrating more on educational apps
<LaserJock> Dynamic Menus
<LaserJock> and the opprotunities with the 2nd CD
<LaserJock> to add on the educational apps that will push Edubuntu into a really cool position
<LaserJock> of having the best LTSP server platform
<LaserJock> and the best selection of educational apps
<LaserJock> all in a very easy and usable package
<willvdl> all free/gratis/vir niks
<LaserJock> yep
<sbalneav> back
<LaserJock> anyway, I wanted to kinda test the waters to see if there are people who want to get involved with this sort of thing
<LaserJock> or even if it's needed
<LaserJock> the idea being documenting a bit better our Edubuntu roadmap
<LaserJock> and breaking up things into bite size chunks for people to work on
<sbalneav> The big thing we've needed to attract to Edubuntu is actual educators, which we've got now with David Trask, so hopefully we'll start getting some good input from him, which will attract others.
<LaserJock> yeah, I'm hopeful that RichEd's efforts of getting educators involved
<LaserJock> combined with attracting more development power
<LaserJock> with really create a infusion of creativity, inovation, and rockin' power
<LaserJock> s/with/will/
<LaserJock> bah, my spelling stinks
* LaserJock goes back to elementary
<willvdl> the creation of ubuntu-education will certainly help
<highvoltage> willvdl: how is that going, btw?
<willvdl> well, as I understand it:
<highvoltage> #ubuntu-education has been awfully quiet :(
<sbalneav> We need to get serious about the handbook, and I'd like to make a suggestion when we get around to that part of the meeting.
<willvdl> the website is getting tweaked to be in line with ubuntu
<pygi> sbalneav: I agree, and I want to tell something when we come there
<willvdl> and another "External" ubuntueducation.com website will emerge
<willvdl> which is technically removed as such
<willvdl> for educators specifically
<stgraber> One thing we should really do is a easy to send form (maybe webbased) to know exactly what the teachers are currently using (their Windows environment, what features, what kind of software), what they do with Edubuntu, what's missing and what they would like to see in the next release
<LaserJock> yeah
<willvdl> on the ubuntueducation website we will have the freedom to explore such things
<stgraber> then it will be easy to make the list of the packages we should include in the default desktop and for what age range
<LaserJock> ok
<willvdl> shall we move on
<LaserJock> any Artwork?
<willvdl> we spoke some time back of bulking up the artwork team
<LaserJock> yeah, I think AliasVegas was probably a bit overwhelmed
<LaserJock> I think she has plans for getting more of a community around it
<willvdl> yeah, she would become a proj manager rather and run with contributions
<LaserJock> so... Docs?
<LaserJock> sbalneav and pygi : shoot!
<pygi> LaserJock: ok, I wanna say just one thing for that
<pygi> LaserJock: let sbalneav write, as I will have a lot to write about it this time...
<sbalneav> umm, ok
<sbalneav> I think one of the things we need to do is to start doing a weekly build of the handbook, say into a pdf, and posting it on the website.
<LaserJock> hmm, good idea
<sbalneav> We're getting some questions on the mailing list that could be answered by the handbook, and currently, it's not accessible.
<LaserJock> yeah, proofreading and beta testing while helping people
<willvdl> how do we handle docs (handbook) for seperate versions? LTS, edgy and feisty?
<sbalneav> I think the thing to do would be to mark it as an "in progress work", and continue to release it.
<LaserJock> ok, well this is how we do it in the Doc team
<highvoltage> guys, I'm having trouble staying awake, (been long day), will catch up and take some notes tomorrow morning, goodnight!
<sbalneav> Well, currently, afaik, there's just the one version of the handbook, for edgy.
<LaserJock> we have our svn repo
<pygi> sbalneav: and dapper
<willvdl> ciao
<sbalneav> gnight highvoltage
<LaserJock> cya highvoltage 
<LaserJock> from our svn repo we build the docs and put them on doc.ubuntu.com
<highvoltage> gnight sbalneav and LaserJock!
<stgraber> good night highvoltage 
<highvoltage> and stgraber and pygi and willvdl  :)
<LaserJock> once we come to a release, we move the stable/finished docs to help.ubuntu.com
<willvdl> gnight
<pygi> night highvoltage 
<LaserJock> since technically the Handbook is in the doc team svn repo too it can be done the same
<LaserJock> I'm not sure how often doc.ubuntu.com is updated (it used to be daily)
<pygi> Since pre-Dapper time we had trouble finding contributors for the Handbook. It has appeared that a lot are interested, lot are applying for tasks, and they don't finish it. At the end me and Susas, with a bit of help from herman and pete were able to write it, and release it at dapper release date. We always had problems, but we managed somehow. What I'd suggest is a more coordinate route this time, so you can get it in time perfectl
<pygi> y ready. Sadly, there is a 99% that I won't be here for you anymore, but you are welcome to mail me or contact me by any means if you need any outstanding help.
<pygi> I truncated a lot, no time for writing, sorry
<willvdl> RichEd, has asked me to take a proj manager role on docs
<willvdl> what is the difference supposed to be between doc.u.c and help.u.c ?
<LaserJock> help.u.c is the stable/released docs
<LaserJock> doc.u.c is the "work in progress"
<willvdl> is doc.u.c basically a svn snapshot?
<LaserJock> yes
<LaserJock> doc.u.c actually holds our svn repo
<willvdl> got it, I think nixternal explained that to me but I forgot
<LaserJock> so we just build it and place it in the /www
<willvdl> anyhoo, I'm happy to take a higher level overview of it
<willvdl> together with school advocacy and general marketing materials
<LaserJock> anyway, I just brought it up as an example of how the doc team does it
<LaserJock> and since the handbook already exists in the doc team repo it'd probably be pretty easy to include it
<willvdl> thanks. will certainly not reinvent any wheels :)
<LaserJock> there's already an Edubuntu section on doc.u.c
<nixternal> http://doc.ubuntu.com/edubuntu/handbook/C
<sbalneav> Well, the problem is edubuntu docs aren't being actively worked on in the main repo, but rather the digitalredneck repo
<sbalneav> hence the suggestion for the weekly build from there.
<nixternal> sbalneav: i have been taking the digitalredneck repo files and merging them with the doc repos, and fixing them so they build
<sbalneav> have you pushed the fixes back to dr?
<nixternal> yup
<sbalneav> ok
<willvdl> dr?
<sbalneav> digital redneck
<willvdl> ah, never ind
<willvdl> :)
<LaserJock> I think it would be good to transition over to the doc team repo at some point
<LaserJock> our original idea was to use susan's repo until they go doc team svn access
<Burgwork> we can get access, it is not hard
<nixternal> i put in to get them access and never heard back
<LaserJock> we might have to do some poking :-)
<pygi> nixternal: only susan needs access atm I think ... 
<willvdl> can do. shouldn't be a problem to get it in
<LaserJock> so...
<LaserJock> any more doc stuff?
<pygi> nop
<willvdl> just that we must try and get involved more with spreadubuntu
<willvdl> will need to make some advcacy materials for it
<LaserJock> ok
<willvdl> merge edubuntu-marketing with ubuntu-marketing?
<willvdl> no need to dilute that community...
<willvdl> just a thought
<LaserJock> willvdl: do you think you could write up a little doc/marketing TODO on the wiki?
<LaserJock> just so people can follow a bit of what's going on and where we are heading?
<willvdl> sure. I need to analyse in detail what ubuntu marketing does and what's deprecated
<Burgwork> willvdl: ubuntu-marketing is explicitly also kubuntu- and xubuntu-
<willvdl> exactly
<Burgwork> as -doc is all as well
<LaserJock> yep
<LaserJock> ok, any more community stuff?
<willvdl> not from me
<willvdl> other than it is deffers time to publish a plan
<LaserJock> yeah
<LaserJock> my generally feeling is that it should be pretty easy to get on the Edubuntu wiki
<LaserJock> and figure out where Edubuntu is going
<LaserJock> and what bite-sized things need to be done right now
<willvdl> yip. we need to clean out some stuff too
<Burgwork> willvdl: I am busy right now, but lets talk about marketing Edubuntu soonish
<willvdl> cool. now that AllHands is over and schools go on holiday :) might get some real work done
<LaserJock> :-)
<LaserJock> Ok, so lets all have a goal of having *something* to report at the next meeting :-)
<willvdl> :] 
<LaserJock> as long as we do that we are making progress :-)
<stgraber> @schedule Zurich
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Zurich: Current meeting: Edubuntu | 25 Nov 19:00: Xubuntu | 28 Nov 17:00: LoCo Team | 29 Nov 13:00: Edubuntu
<LaserJock> ok, we ran a little late I think
<LaserJock> anything more?
<LaserJock> going once...
* pygi wawes to everyone
* willvdl waves
<LaserJock> going twice...
<LaserJock> Thanks for coming everybody, it was a great meeting 
<LaserJock> ============Edubuntu Done===============
<willvdl> thanks folks.
<willvdl> ciao
<ajmitch> LaserJock: ogra is away at the moment?
<LaserJock> yes
<LaserJock> he and RichEd are on a train to Poland
<LaserJock> and yet another conference
<ajmitch> ah
<stgraber> the conferences month :)
<ajmitch> I'll catch him later about the network auth client stuff
<sivang> LaserJock: an edubuntu conference ?
<LaserJock> it's educational
<sivang> that's good :)
<LaserJock> but not edubuntu specific
* sivang could use a conference or two :p
<LaserJock> we'll have more of an edubuntu conference at the next UDS
<poningru> !schedule EST
<poningru> @schedule EST
<Ubugtu> Schedule for EST: Current meeting: Edubuntu | 25 Nov 13:00: Xubuntu | 28 Nov 11:00: LoCo Team | 29 Nov 07:00: Edubuntu
<poningru> or not...
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 25 Nov 18:00 UTC: Xubuntu | 28 Nov 16:00 UTC: LoCo Team | 29 Nov 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-11-23
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 23 Nov 17:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 25 Nov 18:00 UTC: Xubuntu | 28 Nov 16:00 UTC: LoCo Team | 29 Nov 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu
<poningru> @schedule eST
<Ubugtu> Schedule for EST: 23 Nov 12:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 25 Nov 13:00: Xubuntu | 28 Nov 11:00: LoCo Team | 29 Nov 07:00: Edubuntu
<Hobbsee> @schedule sydney
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Australia/Sydney: 24 Nov 04:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 26 Nov 05:00: Xubuntu | 29 Nov 03:00: LoCo Team | 29 Nov 23:00: Edubuntu
* lotusleaf flaps arms and makes turkey noises
* BenC gobbles lotus
* tonyyarusso hops a bus to campus, where maybe there are sane people
<lotusleaf> BenC: feathers and all? :P
<sladen> mmm, continental time
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Current meeting: Ubuntu Development Team | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 25 Nov 18:00 UTC: Xubuntu | 28 Nov 16:00 UTC: LoCo Team | 29 Nov 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu
<thom> ubugtu seems a little premature
<nixternal> @schedule chicago
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Chicago: Current meeting: Ubuntu Development Team | 25 Nov 12:00: Xubuntu | 28 Nov 10:00: LoCo Team | 29 Nov 06:00: Edubuntu
<fabbione> pre-emptive strike!
<nixternal> hehe
<rodarvus> actually ubugtu always change the topic 10 minutes before the start of the next meeting
<rodarvus> (and does it again, afair, 2 or 3 hours after the meeting has started)
<rodarvus> s/afair/iirc/
* pitti waves hello
<rodarvus> hey pitti
<cjwatson> I've created https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DevelTeamMeeting20061123
* kylem waves
<cjwatson> mdz will not be here due to thanksgiving, so I'll chair
<cjwatson> anyone desperate to go first? otherwise I'll just run through in the order of the above wiki page
<fabbione> cjwatson: does the first one get a pony?
<Riddell> hi all
* BenC pings in
* mvo says hello
<BenC> cjwatson: Can I go first so I can get to the turkey?
<cjwatson> BenC: you're second in the list anyway :)
<fabbione> BenC: you are second anyway
<BenC> ok, I can wait :)
<lotusleaf> in soviet russia, turkey goes first
<zul> hi everybody
<fabbione> should we get started guys?
<cjwatson> I'm just going through the list to figure out whom to ping
<cjwatson> I assume Kees is off due to Thanksgiving as well
<cjwatson> doko is on holiday
<cjwatson> ogra is in Poland somewhere
<pitti> Kees is there
<cjwatson> seb128 has an appointment
* pitti pinged keescook
* mvo is currently only one-eyed - the doctor made me wear a eye-patch
<Mithrandir> mvo: yarr!
<cjwatson> ok, we'll see if Adam and Kees turn up later
<cjwatson> general idea of this meeting is to go through specs and figure out which ones are on track for approval by next Thursday
* mvo wants to be a pirate!
<cjwatson> or, more importantly, which ones aren't and may need to be rescued
<pitti> @all: since Kees officially reports to elmo now, mdz said that Kees is not officially required for distro team meeting
<cjwatson> pitti: aha, thanks
<cjwatson> BenC: could you start? I have a phone call, brb
<Mithrandir> cjwatson: given that it's 0400 in Adam's TZ, I suspect he might just have crashed.
<BenC> * driver-device-manager: Drafting: will have this finished and approved by Nov 30th. Actually started on writing this already.
<BenC> * retire-optimized-kernels: Retroactive spec, need to draft it.
<BenC> * linux-kernel-crash-dump: Retargetted to feisty. Few small bits still to implement.
<BenC> * libata-for-all-ata-disks: Retargetted to feisty. Have switched a few drivers to pata in 2.6.19. Ran into some issues with initramfs-tools not including them in the initrd, but fixed as of yesterday. Still some issues to figure out with regard to generic/ide-generic and ata_generic/pata_legacy migration.
<cjwatson> (back)
<Keybuk> BenC: we really really should talk about d-d-m given #u-k today.  let's schedule that for when you're less turkey-centric
<pitti> BenC: do you really need to invest much effort for retire-optimized-kernels if it's done already anyway?
<BenC> Keybuk: definitely
<Keybuk> can we make kylem our bitch to write the kernel patches?
<BenC> pitti: It's just a spec to record what we did
<pitti> ah
<BenC> I only mention it because it's assigned to me :)
<cjwatson> (Adam's moving to elmo's team as well, AFAIK, so ...)
<cjwatson> BenC: ok, you seem to have an easy time :)
<BenC> cjwatson: I'm willing to take on some other stuff if need be
<cjwatson> which of course makes you a prime target for rescuing other people's stuff ...
<BenC> I can delegate
<cjwatson>   feisty-ubiquity: Approved. I should do some of this, but some would make good bite-size tasks for new developers. Should I be the assignee anyway?
* BenC shoves kylem into the middle of the channel
<cjwatson>   increase-hwdb-participation: Approved. None of this is actually going to happeen in the installer, so I'd appreciate somebody else volunteering as the assigneee here.
<kylem> heh
<Keybuk> . o O { can I be on elmo's team too? :p }
<cjwatson>   intel-mac-support: Did not get discussion at UDS or allhands. I know roughly what needs to be done, so I intend to draft it anyway and we can at least make the situation a lot better than it is now.
<cjwatson>   setup-console-under-usplash: Approved; working my way through the merge pile before uploading; unfortunately we have to merge xkeyboard-config first.
<cjwatson>   simplify-oem-installation: Still in requirements gathering. There are some fairly obvious things we can do listed at the bottom of the brain-dump, but I don't know how far we can take this without better commercial input.
<cjwatson>   ubiquity-advanced-partitioner: No more work done since just before UDS, but it's still just as approved as it was before.
<cjwatson>   ubiquity-automation: Approved. We went for a fairly conservative set of options which should be a quick win.
<cjwatson>   ubiquity-driver-updates: Drafting. We loosely agreed the business side at allhands, so I just need to put the pieces together and get it approved now.
<cjwatson>   ubiquity-more-user-config: Discussion. We still need to talk to Launchpad developers about account creation; I didn't manage this at allhands ...
<cjwatson>   ubiquity-oem: Not really started. Doesn't need significant discussion, but Maria indicated at allhands that this wasn't a priority for the Canonical OEM team, so I'll only complete it if I have time.
<cjwatson>   ubiquity-release-notes: Approved. Should be easy.
<cjwatson>   ubiquity-slideshow: Approved. Installer side should be straightforward, but it also needs artwork. Who should be the assignee?
<cjwatson> note in case it's lost: looking for volunteers to implement increase-hwdb-participation
<cjwatson> I suspect I'll need to ask mdz later about the who-should-be-assignee questions
<cjwatson> ubiquity-more-user-config is really the one in most trouble, so I'll try to get that rescued somewhat tomorroow
<cjwatson> -o
<Keybuk> I still want ubiquity-sudoku
<fabbione> Keybuk++
<Mithrandir> Keybuk: that should be easy enough to do..
<pitti> Keybuk: Apps -> Games -> Sudoku :)
<cjwatson> seriously tempted to ignore the oem stuff as I doubt I'm going to get clear enough requirements
<pitti> cjwatson: will that replace the current oem-config package? or will both be supported?
<pitti> (I'm asking because oem-config seems to have quite a number of hiccups)
<cjwatson> pitti: the plans in simplify-oem-installation were to improve oem-config; one of my suggestions in there was to build it from ubiquity, since internally they're similar
<pitti> ah, that's great
<cjwatson> I suspect regardless of spec approval I'll at least try to fix bugs *shrug*
<Mithrandir> cjwatson: is increase-hwdb-participation as simple as it looks?
<mvo> I would be interessted in increase-hwdb-participation but I supsect that I will not have time because of my specs 
<cjwatson> Mithrandir: as specced, I think so
<cjwatson> anyway, we can talk about it later
<cjwatson> is dholbach around anywhere, or on holiday?
<Mithrandir> cjwatson: if so, I can probably do it.  It _looks_ like an hour or so of work, mostly in casper.
<Mithrandir> he was around earlier today.
<cjwatson> Mithrandir: needs to be outside casper I think, due to the after-first-reboot requirement
<cjwatson> anyway, later :)
<cjwatson> fabbione: next
<fabbione> Done
<fabbione>  * clean up a couple of specs.
<fabbione>  * merges.
<fabbione>  * extra bug fixing in mdadm to have bootable feisty.
<fabbione>  * SRU for lvm2 (dapper and edgy).
<fabbione>  * debugging pata_via init race.
<fabbione>  * update some other packages (ocfs2-tools, openais, redhat-cluster-suite).
<cjwatson> (later => #ubuntu-devel)
<fabbione>  * wrote metacode for MAU support in the kernel.
<fabbione>  * recovering from jetlag (on going).
<fabbione> To do
<cjwatson> fabbione: EXPN MAU?
<fabbione>  * start working specs implementations.
<fabbione>  * get last specs approved.
<fabbione>  * change meeting report layout to match specs status.
* mvo thinks the improved-hwdb spec should include the goal to make hwdb-client transltable
<fabbione> cjwatson: it's a math unit optimized to do some mul for sll
<fabbione> s/sll/ssl
<cjwatson> mvo: talk with ogra about that when he's around
<mvo> cjwatson: dholbach is on the road, he send his meeting notes to mdz AFAIK
<fabbione> cjwatson:  i am deliberatly avoiding SSL accelerator because it's like a dedicated FPU that does only 3 things
<fabbione> cjwatson: and *casually* they are very often used in SSL operations
<cjwatson> fabbione: is that for sparc64-niagara-ssl-accelerator?
<fabbione> cjwatson: yes
* cjwatson tries to mentally transform fabbione's report into per-spec
<fabbione> cjwatson: yes sorry.. if forgot the spec format for this meeting
<fabbione> <fabbione>  * update some other packages (ocfs2-tools, openais, redhat-cluster-suite). -> feisty-ha-clusters
<cjwatson> so you have ubuntu-feisty-ha-clusters (low), integrity-check (low) to get approved as well as s-n-s-a
<fabbione> i have more but they are pending approval orhave been excluded from discussion at uds
<cjwatson> but they're pending-approval so presumably those are not too badly off
<fabbione> exactly
<cjwatson> ok, thanks
<cjwatson> heno: next
<heno> * access-gdm - Should be simple enough with upstream doing work on it. Our default GDM theme is not a11y-capable yet though -- need to look into that.
<heno> * braille-support - Pending Review. cjwatson and Keybuk should have another look at it.
<heno> * color-filters - Spec still needs completing. Libs vare available for testing from upstream but no config GUI has been made AFAIK.
<heno> * common-at-conf -- spec needs to be tightened and recent upstream work needs taking into account.
<heno> * multilingual-speech - Should be split up into a Fiesty and a Fiesty+1 spec, with the former adding more language files to our repos (universe and multiverse) and the later would include UI and Just Works stuff.
<heno> * orca-laptop-support - Approved. good progress -- laptop layout now available for testing from upstream.
<heno> * atspi-testing-by-default -- I'd like feedback from the team on this. It is already implemented in test builds of Gnome; does that mean we get it automatically? Are there any major objections to this? ... it will slow systems down a bit.
<cjwatson> heno: most of your specs still seem to be in New. Is that an accurate reflection?
<cjwatson> mouse-tweaks, onboard-desktop-control, onboard-switching?
<heno> cjwatson: some will not be going forward due to general lack of community support, what should be done with those?
<heno> Yes, I posted several such specs before UDS but they don't have steam ATM
<cjwatson> if they're just a bad idea, there's an Obsolete status or similar, and use the status whiteboard; if they won't happen *yet*, I think Deferred
<heno> the onboard stuff needs time from chris, etc
<cjwatson> but at any rate note the status in the whiteboard
<heno> ok, I'm drafter, registrant, but was not planning to have them assigned to me
<heno> esp. the onboard ones
<heno> ok, will do
<Keybuk> who were you planning them to be assigned to?
<cjwatson> my main concerns about atspi-testing-by-default are (a) if it's *too* broken it could seriously impede development, (b) how do we arrange to turn it off again for people who install milestone releases of feisty and then upgrae?
<cjwatson> upgrade
<heno> community members
<heno> cjwatson: I agree on both of those. I can research (b) a bit
<cjwatson> if they're understood but just lack implementation time, please try to get them drafted so that people can pick them up even if there's nobody available right now
<heno> Chris Jones may still work on onboard stuff
<heno> cjwatson: right, ok
<heno> some might be suitable for next years GSoC
<cjwatson> ok, thanks heno; we can discuss further later
<cjwatson> iwj: next
<heno> we are planning a joint pool of specs/candidates across several FOSS projects
<iwj> automated-testing-deployment: Approved, implementation Deferred from edgy.  Work will continue.
<iwj> udev-lvm: Pending Approval by mdz.
<iwj> gnome-app-install-codecs: Drafting.  Awaiting final details of the codec specifier string; apparently gstreamer folks are working on this.
<iwj> winmodem-support: New.  Spec is unclear and I think needs discussion, I suggest deferring to feisty+1.
<iwj> package-dependency-field-breaks: Approved / Beta Available.  Should be ready for full deployment now; I will rerun my search-for-candidates.
<iwj> usb-adsl-modems: Approved / Unknown.  Lacking an Assignee.  It would be nice to assign this to someone who understands the subject.
<iwj> consistent-login-screen: Review.  There seems to be a shortage of reviewers today.  It seemed odd to review my own spec, so I didn't.
<iwj> dbus-restarts: Drafting.  This needs discussion I think.  Why was it declined for uds-mtv ?
<iwj> edgy-fontconfig: New.  There is no spec and the subject needs discussion.  I suggest deferring (or rejecting).
<rodarvus> iwj, edgy-fontconfig is a good spec. the real problem is that we basically got no one with deep fontconfig knowledge at UDS MTV
<cjwatson> I think dbus-restarts was declined because it was controversial and properly belonged upstream (note: just the messenger)
<cjwatson> rodarvus: err, we had Keith Packard - how much more knowledgeable do you want? :P
<iwj> cjwatson: Um.
<Keybuk> actually it was declined because nobody subscribed to it
<iwj> Keybuk: That's fair enough.
<Keybuk> mdz only wanted things to be on the schedule if there were multiple people to discuss it
<rodarvus> cjwatson, keithp was there for one morning, and had specs during all the time he was there :)
<iwj> cjwatson: dbus-restarts really needs to be done and every one of us knows that upstream are on crack.
<Keybuk> where only the assignee/drafter was there, they may as well just draft it themselves and get it approved as a release goal directly
<cjwatson> iwj: I agree
<rodarvus> but you're right, of course
<iwj> So it's not controversial here and we should just do it.  But I can't draft it because I don't know dbus quite well enough.
<cjwatson> iwj: gnome-app-install-codecs> do we have a timescale for gstreamer feedback?
<iwj> Ryan Lortie says `actively being worked on'.
<cjwatson> any volunteers for usb-adsl-modems? I have some experience with one of the models in question, but no time
<pitti> iwj: dbus-restart doesn't seem painfully urgent; and it is yet to be seen whether it's a good idea for a package to restart a daemon in the user's session
<iwj> Mail yesterday at 1700Z.  No reply from the people who are `actively [working] ' on it ...
<cjwatson> I've made a note to review consistent-login-screen
<iwj> pitti: uh ?  That's not the suggestion.  But let's not have the bof now.
<iwj> cjwatson: Thanks.
<cjwatson> perhaps you two can discuss it in #ubuntu-devel later
<pitti> right
<iwj> Right.
<cjwatson> also to talk to mdz about edgy-fontconfig
<iwj> Anyway, I'll chase the codec thing.
<iwj> It does seem to have momentum, we just need to make sure the communication is working.
<cjwatson> winmodem-support is annoying but if we do usb-adsl-support at least we'll improve the most common modern class of dialup
<cjwatson> er, dialup-a-like
<iwj> *snort*
<cjwatson> and there is not a lot of developer traction, unfortunately
<iwj> Yes.
<cjwatson> ok, thanks, I have copious notes now :)
<iwj> It's a shame that towsonu2003 couldn't make it to uds to explain it to us.
<cjwatson> I'll have another read through it and see if there's low-hanging fruit
<cjwatson> Riddell: next
<Riddell> done: 
<Riddell>  * all of KDE main merged and updated, send patches upstream, packaging koffice 1.6.1, and security fun with 
<Riddell> todo: 
<Riddell>  * merge rest of Kubuntu packages and others with my name on them
<Riddell>  * on holiday next week
<Riddell> specs: 
<Riddell> 1 being reviewed:
<Riddell>   kubuntu-ubiquity-migration-assistant
<Riddell> bunch needing approval: 
<Riddell>   (community) kubuntu-multimedia-simplification, kubuntu-samba-integration, kubuntu-feisty-laptop, kubuntu-feisty-networking 
<Riddell>   (artwork) kubuntu-feisty-artwork*
<Riddell>   (mine) kubuntu-feisty-adept-changes, kubuntu-ubiquity-migration-assistant
<Riddell> approved specs:
<Riddell>   kubuntu-feisty-kde4-plan, would be a good task for an abitious MOTU
<Riddell>   kubuntu-update-manager, most important one, still trying to contact upstream with questions about embedded konsole
<Riddell>   kubuntu-feisty-language-selector, approved and qt 4 port already done by josef
<Riddell>   kubuntu-feisty-ubiquity, sebas volunteered to help with qt 4 port
<Riddell> fabbione: iwj was good enough to review kubuntu-ubiquity-migration-assistant, so hopefully that'll need approval soon too
<fabbione> Riddell: ok
<cjwatson> I'll try to pick up approvals tomorrow/Monday once I'm done with my own specs
<cjwatson> what's the * beside kubuntu-feisty-artwork?
<Riddell> cjwatson: it's about 5 specs for each of the artwork parts
<Riddell> the specs themselves are very short
<cjwatson> oh I see, a wildcard
<cjwatson> kubuntu-gdebi, kubuntu-hwdb-usability, kubuntu-feisty-hal-device-manager, kubuntu-onboard?
<Riddell> all deferred
<cjwatson> ok, can you mark them as such?
<Riddell> sure
<cjwatson> thanks
<cjwatson> kylem: anything from you? I know you probably don't have much in the way of specs (yet) ...
<kylem> moo.
<kylem> done:
<kylem>  * ubuntu-dapper-updates.git up to date with patches from community
<kylem>  * ubuntu-edgy-updates.git up to date with backports/patches from dapper-updates
<kylem>  * both trees built on i386/generic
<kylem>  * pushed to kernel.org
<kylem> todo:
<kylem>  * receive more marching orders
<kylem>  * figure out why git on rookery hates me
<kylem> specs:
<kylem>  * none assigned
<cjwatson> there's a kernel in dapper-proposed (IIRC) that I need to figure out what to do with
<pitti> kylem: we need a kernel security update soon; I would like to talk to you about that
<cjwatson> it's like ten weeks old, but we should probably talk through it at some point
<kylem> ok.
<cjwatson> right, I assume Ben will take care of most of your marching orders for now. Are you taking primary responsibility for stable release maintenance?
<kylem> you'd have to ask Ben :)
<pitti> alright, let's talk about this in #u-k tomorrow
<kylem> sure.
<cjwatson> ok, thanks
<cjwatson> pitti: next
<pitti> Done:
<pitti>  * vacation until yesterday
<pitti>  * caught up with email backlog, security review, and kernel security issues
<pitti> Todo:
<pitti>  * find a spare month to catch up with my fat bugs inbox, which I didn't dare to open in the last two weeks
<pitti>  * start implementing cleanup-audio-jumble and zero-configuration-networking, since these are most urgent and block other specs
<pitti> My feisty goals:
<pitti>  * zero-configuration-networking: approved, did not start any implementation yet; played around with the stuff locally, avahi-autoipd works nicely, current libnss-mdns does not work at all for me, needs more work; approx. 2 days work
<pitti>  * cleanup-audio-jumble: pending approval; didn't have an assignee yet, I signed up for this one; did some initial tests, looks good; required code changes will take about a day, changing the system to use pulse consistently another day
<pitti>  * gnome-mount: approved, and used by default in feisty; still needed: security overhaul of hal backend, and de-gnome-ification of password dialog to make it appropriate for XFCE; approx. 3 days work
<pitti>  * mount-all-local-filesystems: approved, not started yet; shoulnd't take more than one or two days to get it working
<pitti>  * apport-improvements: not discussed at UDS; did some talks to kylem and BenC for getting the kernel side right, and talked to lifeless about python crash interception and general code structure cleanup; a lot of work to implement all improvements, but not scheduled for feisty, so low-prio
<pitti>  * crash-reporting: not discussed at UDS, got an ad-hoc session on allhands; client/apport side isn't too complicated, but writing the server side is a considerable amount of work; needs more discussion with stub and LP team
<pitti>  * bug-reporting-tool: pending approval, current assignee is sfllaw, but since most of this spec deals with apport changes, I'll probably end up doing the client side (I estimate 1-2 days); I have no idea how much work the Malone side is (cloakroom and linking submitted stuff to bug)
<pitti>  * malone-cve-tracking: only got a private ad-hoc session with keescook; not a high-pri
<cjwatson> bug mailbox> I feel your pain
<pitti> *shudder*
<Keybuk> I've actually caught up on my bugs
* pitti bets 500 bugs and grabs another ace from his sleeve
<Keybuk> I spend most of today on it
<Mithrandir> pitti: hmm, how does zero-configuration-networking hook into network-roaming?
<kylem> bug mailbox? you mean you don't use inbox?
<Keybuk> Mithrandir: requires n-m to start avahi-autoipd for "create/join other network"
<pitti> Mithrandir: the spec talks about the things that n-m needs to learn
<iwj> pitti: mount-all-local-filesystems> what about the mad journal replay problem ?
<pitti> Mithrandir: like invoking avahi-autoipd, etc.
<cjwatson> kylem: I did until it crushed me
<Mithrandir> pitti: ok.  Can we talk about this later or tomorrow?
<pitti> Mithrandir: sure
<pitti> this certainly requires some coordination
<rodarvus> kylem, I suppose you subscribe to kernel bugs, right?
<cjwatson> pitti: automatic-printer-conf?
<kylem> rodarvus, indeed.
<pitti> iwj: no clue, can we discuss this in #u-d?
<iwj> Sure.
<pitti> cjwatson: not scheduled for feisty, and I'm afraid I won't have time for that
<pitti> cjwatson: however, when we get printerdrake this will mostly implement itself
<cjwatson> pitti: apport-improvements is currently medium; we should probably talk about how much is possible
<pitti> I'd really like to use the new kernel's 'pipes in core patterns' approach
<pitti> but that requires a kernel fix
<cjwatson> it would be nice to get that one at least drafted so that others can be found to help out
<tkamppeter> printerdrake is an approved spec, and pitti told me on the UDS that he wanted to download my tarball and start a first adaptation to Ubuntu around two weeks after the UDS.
<pitti> right, I'm trying to do that ^
<pitti> cjwatson: I'll draft a subset of the improvements then
<tkamppeter> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/printerdrake
<cjwatson> pitti: ok, thanks
<cjwatson> mvo: next
<mvo> Approved specs:
<mvo> - auto-dist-upgrade-testing
<mvo> - binary-driver-education
<mvo> - common-customizations
<mvo> - enabling-additional-components
<mvo> - server-upgrade-tool
<mvo> Pending approval:
<mvo> - dist-upgrader-fixes
<mvo> Drafting:
<mvo> - dynamic-mirror-decisions: I need to add input from James that I got during AllHands
<mvo> - apt-sha256: not sure it needs a full spec, its straightforward to implement 
<mvo> - apt-sync: work on integrating the SoC work on incremental updates into apt
<mvo> - dist-upgrader-arch-any: make sure the upgrader can use binary-any components (e.g. backports). Its pretty clear how to implement it, not sure it needs a full spec
<cjwatson> incremental updates> not pdiffs, right? does that require LP integration?
<mvo> cjwatson: no, zsync/rsync based updates. it would require apt-ftparchive/soyuz integration, but its all pretty experimental currently, not sure it can be done in feisty timeframe
<mvo> I have a test repository working on people
<cjwatson> I'm not concerned about apt-sha256 or dist-upgrader-arch-any from the sound of things
<Keybuk> given the size of the soyuz team, I'd imagine it'd be hard finding the resources
<Keybuk> unless you want to hack on LP
<cjwatson> well, except that apt-sha256 probably needs a soyuz change
<cjwatson> yes, anything that needs LP integration needs to be done massively far in advance
<mvo> cjwatson: right, but the apt-sha256 change should be small, it only writes the Release file itself, the rest is done via apt-ftparchive
<cjwatson> mvo: dependency-removal?
<cjwatson> mvo: ... assuming that soyuz keeps on using apt-ftparchive, which doesn't seem entirely definite
<mvo> cjwatson: I'm not sure why it is in NEW. it was fully speced and approved. and its in edgy. its just not turned on by default (it just prints)
<mvo> cjwatson: oh? it seems to me that if the soyuz team is very small and has trouble keeping up that rewriting apt-ftparchive might not be the best thing to do
<cjwatson> mvo: feel free to draft whatever's still needed and move it out of new (possibly pointing it at a different wiki page or something)
<mvo> cjwatson: thanks, I will
<cjwatson> mvo: well, I agree, but they've always had performance concerns with apt-ftparchive and want to just dump the data out of the database
<cjwatson> anyway, later
<mvo> *nod*
<cjwatson> mvo: dynamic-mirror-decisions does not seem to address automatic selection at all yet - is that planned?
<mvo> cjwatson: yes, it was unclear to me what is really needed. but I talked to James during allhands and have a pretty good idea now
<mvo> I need to add it to the spec though
<cjwatson> ok, please do
<cjwatson> thanks
<cjwatson> rodarvus: next
<rodarvus> - accelerated-x: under review. I asked Scott to hold the Approval of this spec until we received release notes from Christina. This is well underway, so please feel free to Review it now
<rodarvus> - composite-by-default: drafting. Scope has changed since last BoF meeting on UDS MTV. Was "composite *not* really by default, but easily enabled", now became "composite by default". The three remaining focal points of the drafting are:
<rodarvus>   - Making a table, with an in depth comparison of Beryl and Compiz, plus features that need to be met by both of them, so the Technical Board can make the decision when the time comes (Feature Freeze, I suppose?). This comparison is underway, I expect to have it ready tomorrow
<rodarvus>   - Inheriting stuff from 'desktop-effects' package into a semi-novelty design, to accomodate the fact that we'll be the first distro using composite by default. This information will also be added to the spec
<rodarvus>   - Researching graceful fallback of Beryl/Compiz to Metacity (and how to store that into the config file).
<rodarvus> - bullet-proof-x: needs to be drafted, but is blocked by 'composite-by-default', which is of higher priority
<rodarvus> - simple-x-mode-selection: likewise
<rodarvus> - maemo-on-ubuntu: we had almost a day of discussion at UDS MTV for this spec, but it needs legal feedback from Nokia, before I can actually draft it. (so problems are not of technical nature, and I'm not sure if it will happen for feisty)
<rodarvus> - I also have two other edubuntu-related specs, which I plan to talk to ogra about, when he is here (but they are already approved)
<rodarvus> Remarks:
<rodarvus> - I expect composite-by-default to be ready for the first round of Review tomorrow. Hopefully the first two remaining items will be addressed. 'graceful fallback' is not quite there, unfortunately
<rodarvus> - the two specs *will* be ready before Nov 30th. I'll finish them on Monday, even if composite-by-default is not there yet
<Keybuk> rodarvus: Feature Freeze is the plan
<rodarvus> *nods*
<cjwatson> or distro sprint?
* pitti wonders how Feisty's goal of 'good hardware support' and 'compiz by default' go together
<cjwatson> pitti: fallback to metacity
<rodarvus> heh
<Keybuk> that way teams can coalesce around both projects, and we can evaluate how much support we're likely to get, as well as what shape they're both in
<rodarvus> pitti, the challenge of having good hardware support, with composite window manager is the biggest challenge of accelerated-x and composite-by-default
<cjwatson> how is simple-x-mode-selection blocked by composite-by-default?
<rodarvus> and the reason why these two specs are hard to get approved and implemented right
<pitti> rodarvus: (just bitching that feisty breaks both my computers ATM, but nevermind)
<zul> is there going to be a way of manually turning off compiz?
<rodarvus> cjwatson, just time constraints
<rodarvus> as mentioned above, I'll draft the two remaining specs monday, regardless if I have composite-by-default ready for review by the
<rodarvus> then
<cjwatson> rodarvus: ah, I misunderstood "likewise"
<cjwatson> ok, thanks, let me know when I can look over bullet-proof-x
<rodarvus> -EBADGRAMMAR
<cjwatson> Keybuk: next
<rodarvus> cjwatson, sure
<rodarvus> Keybuk, please take a look at accelerated-x when you can. I hope it won't need another round of drafting, but you never know
<Keybuk> Spec Status
<Keybuk> udev specs: these are only a few hours work each, yet eliminate a major source of race conditions and problems that we have.  My plan is to implement these as a set once the upstart changes have been done.
<Keybuk>  - udev-device-mapper: [approved] 
<Keybuk>  - udev-mdadm: [implemented]  with fabbione's merge of mdadm, and my upload of udev, this should be working
<Keybuk>  - udev-evms: [pending approval - mdz] 
<Keybuk>  - udev-lvm: [pending approval - mdz] 
<Keybuk>    + I don't believe there were major concerns with the above two specs, just drafting issues.
<Keybuk> slick boot specs: one of Mark's goals for feisty.  Fortunately there's not much "real work" here.
<Keybuk>  - slick-boot: [pending approval  - sabdfl]  this mostly ended up as a todo list spec
<Keybuk>  - setup-console-under-usplash: [really cjwatson's]  almost done?
<Keybuk>  - usplash-fsck-progress: [drafting]  not yet started on this one, it's one of those things that's probably more effort to draft than it is to implement.
<Keybuk>  - boot-messages: [drafting]  coupled with above really, needs some discussion and decisions how to implement - will land quite late in the cycle; if it misses, the edgy stuff is "good enough"
<Keybuk>  - no-usplash-timeout: [review - cjwatson]  trivial spec just to make things more seamless
<Keybuk>  - usplash-until-desktop: [blocked and declined]  it turns out that this isn't possible; most X drivers need to start in a text mode, otherwise they can't set the mode back when you Ctrl-Alt-F1 back later.
<cjwatson> Keybuk: slick-boot depends on usplash-until-desktop, which can't happen, doesn't it?
<Keybuk> replacement-initscripts: [drafting]  Spec has a draft brain storm, this one will be in flux until it's actually implemented.  Basically like streamlined-boot before; the spec will document what happened, not what's planned.
<Keybuk> automake-transition: [deferred from edgy - implemented!]  Debian have almost finished this transition, marked it implemented as it's only half a dozen unmaintained packages that haven't been transitioned now.  Automake 1.10 FTW!
<Keybuk> techboard-2006: [pending approval - sabdfl]  Can mdz poke him? :p
<Keybuk> new-pci-ids: [new]  someone (mdz!) stuffed this in my queue.  the summary is bogus, it's practically impossi
<Keybuk>  impossible to do today.  we could do this properly with some heavy kernel hackery that would give us lots and lots of wins.
<cjwatson> Keybuk: new-pci-ids is supposed to use the new_id thing in /sys
<Keybuk> cjwatson: I could rename it to "slickish-boot", but I can't be arsed :p  the other gains are worthwhile
<Keybuk> cjwatson: which doesn't work
<cjwatson> uh?
<cjwatson> #ubuntu-devel
<Keybuk> indeed, or read the #ubuntu-kernel log from today
<Keybuk> this dovetails nicely with BenC's device-driver-manager thing
<Keybuk> we both want to do the same evil thing to the kernel
<Mithrandir> Keybuk: usplash-until-desktop> too hard to save the mode in the initramfs?
<cjwatson> setup-console-under-usplash should land tomorrowish at which point testing would be very nice
<cjwatson> I'll go and read up on the kernel stuff later
<Keybuk> Mithrandir: it's an X driver thing apparently, mjg59 knows more
<cjwatson> I think the X driver saves the registers
<cjwatson> </handwave>
<cjwatson> I browsed through replacement-initscripts briefly; the big graph melted my eyes but didn't make me scream too badly
<cjwatson> will look again later
<Mithrandir> cjwatson: yes, and we should (COUGH) be able to save that when usplash starts.  Might be bloody painful, though.
<cjwatson> Keybuk: syslog-improvements?
<Keybuk> cjwatson: not accepted for feisty
<Keybuk> I doubt I'll have time
<cjwatson> Keybuk: how come all the obsolete upstart specs?
<Keybuk> not accepted for feisty
<cjwatson> that seems like Deferred not Obsolete
<Keybuk> and some of them make more sense under /products/upstart
<mjg59> There's no practical way to avoid a switch to text mode before a switch to X
<mjg59> Since otherwise X has no idea what mode to switch back to
<cjwatson> Keybuk: thanks
<cjwatson> I have seb128's update
<cjwatson> specs:
<cjwatson> * https://blueprints.launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/easy-codec-installation: spec approved, first version of the library packaged (not uploaded yet, should be soon). Next step is waiting for gstreamer upstream
<Mithrandir> mjg59: as I've said earlier; assuming we can easily grab that bit of code out of X, usplash could grab it and save it somewhere and X could be taught to use that.
<cjwatson> * https://blueprints.launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/tab-consistency:
<cjwatson> pending approval, not started yet
<cjwatson> * https://blueprints.launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/desktop-slab:
<cjwatson> pending review, package available to universe
<cjwatson> .
<mjg59> Mithrandir: "that bit of code" is per-driver
<cjwatson> Done:
<cjwatson> * started catching up on mails backlog
<cjwatson> * got debug backtraces for a stack of edgy crashers before updating to
<cjwatson> feisty
<cjwatson> * started cleaning up the bugs backlog
<cjwatson> * started on GNOME 2.17 packaging
<cjwatson> .
<cjwatson> To do:
<cjwatson> * syncs with Debian
<cjwatson> * keep catching up with bugs and mails backlog
<rodarvus> mjg59, until we have randr 1.2, I suppose?
<cjwatson> seb seems well enough sorted, once review happens
<rodarvus> (which should be 7.3)
<mjg59> rodarvus: 7.2.1 with luck, but still, no
<cjwatson> sfllaw just got back from interviewing, and will be along in a minute
<cjwatson> Mithrandir: next
<Mithrandir> misc: learning the ropes as an archive team member.  Doing a few merges, been feeling ill-ish since I got home, so trying to recover.  Discussion with mdke about how to handle string changes post-stringfreeze (and in SRUs).
<Mithrandir> specs: no progress; I haven't started working on those.
<Mithrandir> next week: Herd 1
<rodarvus> I thought this bit was about to be generalized into randr 1.2
<cjwatson> installer is about two-thirds merged, but ubiquity is going to need some substantial changes for the new partman-auto, so we'll see how well things work for next week
<cjwatson> going as fast as I can on that
<Riddell> Mithrandir: I'm on holiday next week, I'll ask the other kubuntu developers to help with herd 1, but it may not happen for kubuntu
<Mithrandir> Riddell: ok
<Mithrandir> cjwatson: I'd be somewhat surprised if we manage to release on time, but I'll try.
<cjwatson> Mithrandir: all your specs are approved with the exception of get-rid-of-etc-resolv-conf (not happening?) and grub2 (mostly there last time I checked)
<Mithrandir> cjwatson: g-r-o-e-r-c might not be happening; I'd like to discuss it a bit in-person
<Keybuk> Mithrandir: that name still scares the willies out of me every time I see it
<cjwatson> might make more sense for feisty+1
<Keybuk> Ubuntu Herd CD 1
<Keybuk> SO WRONG
<Mithrandir> grub2 is pending approval, I think it should be fine.
<Mithrandir> Keybuk: you read it as Hurd?
<Keybuk> Mithrandir: exactly
<rodarvus> Mithrandir, FeistyReleaseSchedule doesn't mentions which day the archive will be frozen. Do you have any specific day in mind?
<cjwatson> rodarvus: particularly with early releases, it inevitably depends on whether stuff actually works
<cjwatson> there's no real point freezing until the installer is in place and the system at least kind of boots sometimes
<Mithrandir> rodarvus: usually the day or two days before, but that's a per-release thing.
<cjwatson> which I hear has been a bit rocky to date in feisty ;)
<cjwatson> ok, thanks Mithrandir
<rodarvus> *nods*, I was assuming "if all goes well", of course
<rodarvus> thanks
<cjwatson> tkamppeter: do you have anything?
<tkamppeter> Yes.\
<tkamppeter> Report Nov  3 - Nov 23, 2006
<tkamppeter> FEATURES WITH ME INVOLVED:
<tkamppeter> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/people/till-kamppeter/+specs
<tkamppeter> UDS outcomes:
<tkamppeter> - "Easy configuration of printer sharing" -> Accepted
<tkamppeter> - "Replace gnome-cups-manager by printerdrake" -> Accepted
<tkamppeter> - "Automatic download of printer drivers through the internet" -> Pending
<tkamppeter>   Approval
<tkamppeter> - "Automatic hotplug printer configuration" -> Waits for draft by pitti
<tkamppeter> Had no sessions on UDS:
<tkamppeter> - "PPDFileStructureSpecification" -> Fixes on Foomatic done to avoid
<tkamppeter>   duplicate or unusable entries, new FHS extension for printer drivers
<tkamppeter>   and PPDs (in LSB 3.2) assures that also third-party drivers and PPDs
<tkamppeter>   integrate well
<tkamppeter> - "applications-printing" -> Common printing dialogs and interfaces are
<tkamppeter>   worked out by Portland and OpenUsability projects, so no application
<tkamppeter>   hacking for Ubuntu recommended, will appear at the earliest in Feisty+1.
<tkamppeter> - "Make PDF "Printer" functionality for CUPS as default" -> Not much missing
<tkamppeter>   for implementing it, best is to report appropriate bugs against the
<tkamppeter>   cups-pdf package.
<tkamppeter> DONE:
<tkamppeter> - Submitted foomatic-db_20061122-0ubuntu1: Fixes bug 19437, bug 39847,
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 19437 in foomatic-db "OKIPage 4W printer problems" [Medium,Fix released]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/19437
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 39847 in ubuntu-meta "ubuntu-desktop should depend on linuxprinting.org-ppds for PostScript PPDs" [Medium,Fix committed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/39847
<tkamppeter>   bug 49805, bug 51944, bug 64238, bug 70425, bug 71871, and several bugs 
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 49805 in foomatic-db "PPD for LaserJet 6MP does not have an option for auto tray selection" [Medium,Fix released]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/49805
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 51944 in foomatic-db "Brother MFD8820 driver is not present" [Low,Fix released]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/51944
<tkamppeter>   reported on http://forums.linuxprinting.org/
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 64238 in foomatic-db "HP 4240 and 4250 ppd files appear to have syntax errors" [Low,Fix released]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/64238
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 70425 in foomatic-db "Default driver for Samsung ML-1750 is not "perfect"" [Low,Fix released]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/70425
<tkamppeter>   In addition, printer setup tools with direct CUPS support (KDE Printing
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 71871 in foomatic-db "Kyocera Mita FS-1010 driver is perhaps incorrect" [Medium,In progress]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/71871
<tkamppeter>   Manager, foomatic-gui, and system-config-printer AFAIR) will not show
<tkamppeter>   entries for drivers with empty command line prototype.
<tkamppeter> - Submitted foo2zjs_20060625dfsg-4ubuntu1: Fixes bug 65618
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 65618 in foo2zjs "Firmware upload to LJ 1000/1005/1008/1020 broken (fix to be proposed as Edgy update)" [Medium,Fix committed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/65618
<tkamppeter> - Submitted foo2zjs_20060625dfsg-2ubuntu2: Fixes bug 65618 in Edgy
<tkamppeter> - Answered to bug reports
<tkamppeter> Ubugtu? Where are you?
<tkamppeter> linuxprinting.org-ppds is split into linuxprinting.org-ppds (3.5 MB) and linuxprinting.org-ppds-extra (10MB) now, so the most important manufacturer PPDs can go onto the Feisty desktop CDs as linuxprinting.org-ppds. Ready for assessing size increase and putting into the appropriate seeds.
<pitti> yay PPD file split :)
<cjwatson> pitti is unlikely to have time to work on automatic-printer-conf, from the sounds of things earlier
<pitti> tkamppeter: for the record, the package is uploaded, should sit in NEW now
<pitti> cjwatson: well, I won't have much time to work on printerdrake code/gui, and we need that for automatic-printer-conf
<pitti> a-p-c itself is not much work then (just some g-v-m integration)
<pitti> for printerdrake, I have some community members in mind which might want to help
<pitti> (ivoks, Kagou)
<cjwatson> tkamppeter: re 65618, I think it would be useful if you could please try not to use "tested in Mandriva 2007" as a justification - it doesn't correlate well with working in Ubuntu, particularly in areas like udev that differ a fair bit between distributions
<tkamppeter> pitti, I have seen that foomatic-db is uploaded, therefore I have closed the bugs. What is missing is that a person with appropriate rights adds linuxprinting.org-ppds to the seeds for the desktop CDs.
<Ubugtu> Mandriva bug 2007 in Installation "Switching to alternate screens during install crashes X" [Normal,Resolved: fixed]  http://qa.mandriva.com/show_bug.cgi?id=2007
<pitti> tkamppeter: I thought that was already shipped?
<cjwatson> tkamppeter: 65618> note that you must upload to edgy-proposed, not edgy
<cjwatson> see http://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates
<tkamppeter> pitti, unfortunately, the PPDs did not make it onto the Edgy desktop CDs, there was some confusion.
<cjwatson> tkamppeter: "appropriate rights" => ubuntu-core-dev
<sfllaw> tkamppeter: I think we had a discussion about this during UDS.
<sfllaw> tkamppeter: Please follow StableReleaseUpdates and all will be good.
<cjwatson> ok, we're running short on time; further printing discussion => #ubuntu-devel
<cjwatson> sfllaw: anything from you?
<sfllaw> Done:
<sfllaw>  * Specs:
<sfllaw>   - bug-workflow: Done with input from mpt and bjorn and sabdfl
<sfllaw>   - scalable-installation-testing: Worked with pitti.  Need to spec out UI bits, but that's something I can do this weekend.
<sfllaw>  * Verification
<sfllaw>   - xorg: Done
<sfllaw>   - vino: Doing it now
<sfllaw>  * Interviewed intern candidates.
<sfllaw> To do:
<sfllaw>  * More verification, since -proposed has stuff waiting.
<sfllaw>  * Review interviewees and pick [0-2] .
<sfllaw>  * Bug triage
<fabbione> sfllaw: did you get my mail about lvm2/clvm?
<fabbione> (SRU dapper/edgy)
<sfllaw> fabbione: I didn't specifically notice it.  Is it tagged verification-needed?
<sfllaw> If so, it will show up on my todo list.
<sfllaw> Is it also a priority?
<fabbione> sfllaw: yes the bug is
<cjwatson> sfllaw: sorry about the vast influx into *-proposed
<sfllaw> Well, it could have been worse.
<fabbione> sfllaw: i followe SRU and mailed you
<cjwatson> I think I've largely cleared the queue now, with the exception of a few more recent requests
<sfllaw> Then I will get to it in order.
<sfllaw> Important things I will do first, if you ping me about them.
<cjwatson> although I haven't yet gone through everything that the SRU team is subscribed to, and there's openoffice.org coming next week
<sfllaw> That's going to be a fun one.
<sfllaw> Any other questions?
<cjwatson> I've been telling all submitters to contact you after accepting their uploads
<cjwatson> ok, thanks
<cjwatson> zul: anything from you?
<zul> this week:
<zul> - amd64 xen fixing
<zul> - porting paravirt-ops
<zul> - kernel monkey collecting patches
<zul> next week:
<zul> - merges
<zul> - testing paravirt-ops
<zul> - kernel monkey
<zul> specs:
<zul> * xen-fiesty - pending approval - need to update spec to mention paravirt-ops
<cjwatson> porting paravirt-ops> does that assume that we're going with 2.6.19 rather than 2.6.20? I understood that if we went with 2.6.20 we got it for free
<zul> yes 2.6.20 should have it 
<zul> 2.6.19 is for me to test it and get acquainted with it
<cjwatson> ok
<cjwatson> right, any other business?
<zul> also if something breaks on the xen side the theorty is we can get it fixed quite quickly
<cjwatson> going once
<cjwatson> going twice
<Keybuk> WAIT!
<Keybuk> just kidding
<cjwatson> adjourned. Remember everyone, all specs for feisty to be approved by next Thursday.
<pitti> thanks all!
<mvo> thanks everyone
<fabbione> thanks *
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 25 Nov 18:00 UTC: Xubuntu | 28 Nov 16:00 UTC: LoCo Team | 29 Nov 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-11-24
<blaa> hi all
<imbrandon> @schedule us/chicago
<tonyyarusso> Looks like the bot hates you
<tonyyarusso> @schedule chicago
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Chicago: 25 Nov 12:00: Xubuntu | 28 Nov 10:00: LoCo Team | 29 Nov 06:00: Edubuntu
<Express> je lui demandait ;) :D
<mdke_> evening
<robotgeek> hello, doccers :)
<mdke_> who else is around?
<robotgeek> hmm, LaserJock said he will will back soonish. running an errand or so
* nixternal is here
* tonyyarusso is here
<mdke_> we need an agenda
* mdke goes and hunts for all the doc-specs
<nixternal> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KubuntuDesktopGuide
<nixternal> there is the KDG
<Riddell> ooh, docs meeting?
<nixternal> yes sir
<Riddell> put me down for pimping bzr on the agenda
<Burgwork> one of the bzr devs just showed me an online pqm tools
<mdke> go ahead and add things to the agenda
<Burgwork> however, I think we should be looking into everything on moin, personally
<Riddell> mdke: how can I add stuff if we don't have one?
<mdke> Riddell: well, you edit the page, and type something in
<Riddell> mm hmm, which page?
<mdke> wiki:DocumentationTeam/MeetingAgenda
<tonyyarusso> I only have 40 minutes of lappy battery, so hopefully this is quick
<mdke> shall we get cracking?
<Burgwork> sounds good
<robotgeek> +1
<mdke> agenda is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/MeetingAgenda
<mdke> refresh it if you haven't in the last few seconds
<mdke> let's discuss briefly the specifications we have for feisty so far
<mdke> the most significant one is TopicBasedHelp. Have people had a chance to read it since the updates the other day?
<tonyyarusso> I haven't - URL?
<Burgwork> sort of
<mdke> tonyyarusso: wiki:TopicBasedHelp
<nixternal> i briefed it yes
<mdke> what do people think?
<tonyyarusso> I like the concept of having short answers available, but I don't want it to be to the exclusion of manual-style docs.
<tonyyarusso> I think we should have both ways to look up quick answers, and something that caters to the "I'm going to sit down and learn this over the weekend" crowd
<robotgeek> i dont mind it at all if it helps searching for docs
<mdke> the idea isn't to exclude anything, just to split up the existing sections presentationally
<Burgwork> sure, can we make each page a moin page?
<tonyyarusso> If they can share content, great, but that's a technical issue and I don't know how they work internally
<robotgeek> i feel that our doc style kinda tends towards that, anyways
<nixternal> Burgwork: that is a good idea actually
<tonyyarusso> mdke: I don't want to split them entirely though - I actually like the way they are now
<nixternal> go from moin2xml
<Burgwork> mdke: thoughts on that?
<robotgeek> nixternal: does that work reliably now?
<Burgwork> is moin2xml mature enough?
<nixternal> from what i can tell, it is breaking up our current sections, and adding a top level faq section that im guessing will link to the topic headins
<nixternal> Burgwork: actually, no it isn't...any of the wiki2xml's scripts are not good
<nixternal> although, copy and paste isn't all that difficult ;)
* LaserJock waves hello
* nixternal waves back
<tonyyarusso> In short, it sounds like a good goal at least from the user perspective; dunno how specifically to get there
<robotgeek> yeah, i am not sure if any kubuntu doc team member has started talking upstream about it. (i havent)
<nixternal> thats what we have to work out, as it will cause us to utilize a different layout than what we currently use..however it shouldn't be all that difficult
<nixternal> robotgeek: i have
<nixternal> upstream, ala KDE, want topic-based help as well, but hasn't been really looked into as much
<nixternal> i know there is a supposed khelpcenter restructuring plan, but implementation or due date is unk
<Burgwork> we need something for feisty
<Burgwork> I think the best way is to do moin2xml
<Burgwork> I know Fedora is using it already
<nixternal> when is our string freeze btw?
<LaserJock> nixternal: check the schedule
<nixternal> March 8
<nixternal> haha, i was looking dead at the schedule at that
<robotgeek> i suggest we make a list of things that don't work well with moin2xml, maybe we can get someone to fix it for us?
<LaserJock> how are we going to get it into moin in the first place?
<Burgwork> manual merging
<Burgwork> identify a toc we want to ship and then work on those pieces
<nixternal> i did a moin2xml with the release pages we were doing during edgy, and there were a lot of manual fixes that had to be done
<Burgwork> lets document all those things
<nixternal> i think we can add to the script as well in order to fix some of those issue with tags
<Burgwork> is the converter in LP?
<nixternal> probably just a bunch of sed/awk
<LaserJock> fedora isn't it?
<nixternal> i have been using the converter on the moinmoin webpage
<Burgwork> yep, but is it uploading to Ubuntu?
<Burgwork> ok, shall we assume we are going with moin2xml?
<nixternal> either that or copy and paste
<nixternal> manual merging..which im thinking will be just as quick
<Burgwork> manual merging for the initial docbook --> moin
<nixternal> with the moin2xml style has to be very strict...i do know that is a recommendation
<Burgwork> we can acls if needed
<LaserJock> I do like the idea having people be able to edit a wiki page to contribute
<LaserJock> giving edit access on the wiki is much easeir then svn access I think
<Burgwork> so if we are going moin, we need the following done:
<Burgwork> merge docbook into moin
<Burgwork> decide on list of topics to ship
<Burgwork> start test convertions to work bugs out of the converter
<LaserJock> well, I'm kinda feeling like we are getting ahead of ourselves
<Burgwork> how so?
<Burgwork> we need to make a decision
<LaserJock> have we decided what docs and in what forms we want them?
<Burgwork> the wiki is getting edits while the docbook is not
<nixternal> i know the kubuntu docs spec was approved, however if we are going for a unified layout, that has to change (the kdg spec)
<Burgwork> ok
<robotgeek> nixternal: what do you mean, unified layout? for udg and kdg?
<Burgwork> if we do go with moin, we need to reconsider how we do doc on the wiki
<nixternal> thats what the topic-based help spec calls for
<nixternal> Kubuntu team members should get the packaging right so that the Kubuntu documents take on the structure decided above.
<nixternal> but when it comes to Kubuntu based stuff, there is one man, mr. Riddell :)
<robotgeek> heh
<tonyyarusso> Does that give us enough direction to move on?
* Riddell doesn't use a title
<nixternal> heheh
<nixternal> The Grand Puba
<robotgeek> one sec, so essentially we will be editing stuff on the wiki, and merging it back in? 
<nixternal> yes robotgeek 
<nixternal> which means we will need to watch the pages closely
<somerville32> What about Xubuntu stuff?
<robotgeek> okay. we will definetly need policies on when and how to convert/sync back etc. 
<LaserJock> well, we would use ACLs I'm guessing
<nixternal> somerville32: i was wondering the same thing, but everything i have seen is ubuntu and kubuntu ;(
<LaserJock> maybe a little Edubuntu too ;-)
<tonyyarusso> To be discussed with their respective teams more later?
<nixternal> ya, dedfinitely Edubuntu
<robotgeek> does xubuntu not use gnome's help manager?
<LaserJock> ok, but I think we are still going off
<LaserJock> robotgeek: I would think not
<nixternal> LaserJock: if you use ACLs why not continue using the SVN then?
<nixternal> essentially, the SVN has that all taken care of
<LaserJock> we can control the ACLs much better
<nixternal> with moinmoin?
<LaserJock> sure
<nixternal> i guess you need a super power to be able to do that
<LaserJock> sure
<nixternal> hehe
<LaserJock> which we have I believe
<LaserJock> on the other hand you have to get a Canonical admin to do svn
<nixternal> im sure either Burgwork or mdke does
<LaserJock> but I'm still thinking we might be getting ahead of ourselves a little bit
<Burgwork> the advantage with moin is with ease of editing
<Burgwork> nothing to do with access control
<LaserJock> well, I think it might be another advantage
<nixternal> ya, that is why i said we will have to watch those pages like a hawk
<tonyyarusso> (Any chance we can rearrange the order of the Agenda and talk about Open Week next?  That's the only other thing on there I'd like to hear about, but I only have 10 minutes of battery left.)
<Burgwork> open week is this week
<Burgwork> lets talk about that right now
<LaserJock> k
<tonyyarusso> Awesome
* nixternal sits back
<nixternal> forgot the "and listens" part
<Burgwork> we basically need a todo list, with people to answer
<Burgwork> so here is what I propose:
<Burgwork> fix up the wikitodo and just get people working on that
<LaserJock> where did mdke go?
<Burgwork> lets identify high visibility but low quality pages and then work on them
* robotgeek will not be able to attend openweek at all, sad
<Burgwork> such as our installation guide
<tonyyarusso> I'd like to propose that we include some basic wiki howto session, syntax/formatting, how to create pages, etc. for people that would like to start writing/editing docs (both ones discussed above and otherwise), but have never used a wiki before.
<Burgwork> yes, that is an excellent idea
<Burgwork> I can lead a mediawiki2moin session
<tonyyarusso> For those who have experience on wikipedia, etc.?
<Burgwork> yes
<tonyyarusso> Sounds good
<LaserJock> ok, so we have 2 hrs right?
<Burgwork> we do? I have not read the OpenWeek thingy
<LaserJock> yeah
<Burgwork> right
<tonyyarusso> Is the /participate page part of our responsibility, or does someone else cover that?  If it's us, make sure that lots of possibilities are listed
<Burgwork> on the website?
<tonyyarusso> yes
<LaserJock> 1 hr on wed. and 1 hr on sat.
<Burgwork> sort of
<Burgwork> both mdke and myself can edit the website
<Burgwork> we need to munge in that ContributeToUbuntu and the HelpingUbuntu pages into that one
<tonyyarusso> Okay.  It's probably good as is, but maybe just make one sweep over it to make sure things are included
<LaserJock> ok so we have probably 3 main thing
<LaserJock> 1) intro to doc team, what we do and how to get involved
<LaserJock> 2) wiki docs
<LaserJock> 3) shipped docs
<tonyyarusso> basically
<Burgwork> yep
<Burgwork> I think there is enough work with just the wik
<Burgwork> wiki
<tonyyarusso> Probably send out something to the ml asking for help going over and touching up high visibility wiki pages over the weekend
<robotgeek> sure, its a good time to fix docs
<Burgwork> yep
<tonyyarusso>  Is that all we have on that then?
<robotgeek> looks like :)
<LaserJock> well, mdke needs to know what's going on, we should have a ML thread on it
<robotgeek> sure, i am maintaining minutes :)
<tonyyarusso> Yeah
<tonyyarusso> good move robotgeek 
<somerville32> Can I add an item to the agenda? haha
<robotgeek> somerville32: sure, we can discuess it at the end, i guess
<somerville32> Perfect.
<robotgeek> Riddell: guess you are up 
<tonyyarusso> And I'm out.  Have a good rest of the meeting folks.
<robotgeek> tonyyarusso: later
<Riddell> mm?
<robotgeek> Riddell: pimping bzr :)
<Riddell> oh well, it's dead cool
<Riddell> but might be redundant if the whole thing is moving to moin
<Riddell> however, incase it's not, bzr is much more flexible than svn
<LaserJock> but it's also messier for a project this size
<Riddell> you won't have to rely on sysadmins for access control, and those without access can easily branch and have changed merged in
<Riddell> how so?
<LaserJock> having one repo
<LaserJock> simple
<LaserJock> fast
<Riddell> bzr is only 1 repo
<Riddell> not sure what you mean
<LaserJock> well, I'm imagining you'd need 1 branch for each doc
<LaserJock> or something similar
<Riddell> it's also simpler than svn in parts, and not more complex anywhere
<Riddell> you wouldn't
<Riddell> however it's not as fast, you're right there
<Riddell> but that's being worked on
<robotgeek> we don't really branch too much, only on releases. 
<Riddell> exactly
<LaserJock> it's unpractical for people to carry around 200MB repos
<Riddell> that wouldn't change
<LaserJock> robotgeek: that's not what I mean
<Riddell> then you can do a checkout --lightweight
* robotgeek waits, since he has never used bzr
<LaserJock> I think that is still lightweight
<lifeless> hi guys
<lifeless> can I help
<LaserJock> I mean, I'm all for bzr
<LaserJock> but I've already tried
<LaserJock> and it's slow and difficult for people to use in this instance
<Riddell> lifeless: I'm trying to presuade them to move from svn to bzr, now that svn imports are working for their svn archive on launchpad
<lifeless> Riddell++
<Riddell> LaserJock: what's difficult about it?
<LaserJock> well, people have a hard time figuring out where to put things
<LaserJock> and what the workflow is
<Riddell> LaserJock: maybe you havn't tried it in a while, you can do a bzr checkout now, you don't have to branch unless you actually want to
<lifeless> LaserJock: can you be more precise. Perhaps an example ?
<Riddell> it's exactfly the same workflow as svn
<lifeless> LaserJock: i.e. 'when I wanted to add fnor.svg, I did not know what to do'
<Riddell> but if you want to branch, if you're doing something experimental or you don't have commit rights, then it's far easier to do so
<LaserJock> ok, well there's 2 things
<Riddell> try it now!  bzr checkout sftp://<lpuser>@bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-doc/ubuntu-doc/sandbox
<lifeless> LaserJock: go on
<LaserJock> if we do it in "svn-like" mode then there is not much of a distinct advantage for us
<Riddell> I've pointed out two major advantages
<LaserJock> perhaps
<lifeless> LaserJock: you said there are two problems where its harder
<lifeless> LaserJock: I'd love it if you could enlarge on that
<LaserJock> well, speed is always an issue
<LaserJock> granted it's getting better
<LaserJock> the other thing was access
<lifeless> 'access' ?
<LaserJock> which hopefully LP will improve
<Riddell> anyone in the ubuntu-doc team can commit to that sandbox archive (go ahead and try!)
<LaserJock> heh
<lifeless> LaserJock: what do you mean 'access' ?
<LaserJock> bzr on LP is not exactly user friendly
<Riddell> it's a damn site better than svn controlled by a sysadmin
<LaserJock> lifeless: both who gets to commit and what to do with people who can't commit
<lifeless> Riddell: chill out man, lets work through this :)
<LaserJock> yeah, I mean I'm with you guys
<LaserJock> I love bzr
<lifeless> LaserJock: I'm not clear what you mean. Give me an example please.
<LaserJock> ok, so how is a non-docteam member supposed to use bzr?
<lifeless> LaserJock: i.e. 'the doc-team leaders cannot control who can commit to the branch'
<lifeless> LaserJock: bzr checkout http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-doc/ubuntu-doc/sandbox
<LaserJock> ok, then what do they do with it?
<robotgeek> Riddell: i get  ERROR: Not a branch blah
<lifeless> LaserJock: you tell me, give me a use case,  I'll give you the bzr commands.
<somerville32> bzr: ERROR: Not a branch: /home/ubuntu/sftp:/cody-somerville@bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-doc/ubuntu-doc/sandbox/
<robotgeek> nvm
<lifeless> somerville32: install python-paramiko
<lifeless> somerville32: or add '/'after the ':'
<robotgeek> lifeless: your command works, ridell's does not
<robotgeek> i see what you mean by it's slow :)
<lifeless> robotgeek: you need to put your lp username in riddells command, or be in the ubuntu-doc team
<lifeless> robotgeek: you're probably not in the ubuntu-doc team.
<robotgeek> lifeless: no, i am. 
<LaserJock> lifeless: Joe wants to contribute to the docs, so he grabs the LP branch but doesn't know what to do with it afterwords
<lifeless> LaserJock: cmon, what does he do with svn today ?
<lifeless> LaserJock: I'll be he makes some changes, runs svn diff and posts the diff right ?
<LaserJock> he sends a patch to the doc team mailing list
<lifeless> LaserJock: so with bzr, he can do *exactly that* today. Nothing new to learn.
<robotgeek> does bzr help in "automating" that process?
<LaserJock> lifeless: so nothing to gain with bzr
<lifeless> LaserJock: but he can also start doing more capable things. like:
<lifeless> making a new branch, which (s)he can now commit to. Then the diff is generate by doing 'bzr bundle', and thats a human readable diff with extra data so that you can see their commits, and track renames etc
<lifeless> also it handles binary file changes like images
<somerville32> I got more errors
<lifeless> LaserJock: so going back to your point, could I reasonably paraphrase it as 'we have no workflow figured out for this new tool' ?
<LaserJock> lifeless: more like "we don't want to change workflow as it works ok now" but yeah
<robotgeek> lifeless: yes, essentially that
<lifeless> so my point here is two fold.
<LaserJock> we can certainly try again
<LaserJock> I've already tried once
<lifeless> a) bzr does not require you to change your workflow.
<nixternal> with bzr however, you flow with the rest of the community as well.  most of the other communities utilize bzr...i personally am all for bzr due to that aspect, plus we don't have to rely on others for access control, speed is getting better, and if we have an issue we can go directly the source w/o issue
<lifeless> b) bzr *allows* you to change your workflow as you gain comfort
<Riddell> it doesn't work for me, I lost my svn access and I don't know where to find it
<robotgeek> damn thing is stuck in "phase 0/4"
<nixternal> robotgeek: sit there, you are grabbing a lot ;)
<somerville32> Why don't we have a vote or something? haha
<robotgeek> so, okay. i will put it down as "try it again, and come back to it again"
<nixternal> the initial checkouts with bzr are rediculous, i will give yout hat
<lifeless> robotgeek: its a large initial pull. Once thats pulled all operations will be local, and much faster
<lifeless> so I'd like to suggest something
<LaserJock> well, like I said, we can try it again now that it's on LP
<nixternal> if you did a bzr branch, you will have to commit locally and then push your changes as well
<lifeless> Riddell here knows bzr, and knows your processes.
<nixternal> if you do a --lightweight, then you use it just like svn
<lifeless> nixternal: --lightweight over the internet == extremely slow.
<nixternal> not on mine it isn't
<LaserJock> but really the only problem we've had with svn is access and we were promised that that wouldn't be a problem anymore
<lifeless> nixternal: I cant recommend that until we deploy the hpss server on launchpad sometime in the new year.
<nixternal> then again, i tend to grab the latest from bzr
<lifeless> anyway
<LaserJock> but so far when I've tried bzr for the doc repo it's been slow and somewhat buggy
<lifeless> I want to suggest that rather than deciding right now, you all commit to trying bzr, and rather than saying 'too hard' if theres some friction and learning curve, talk with riddel, or any of the folk on #bzr about it
<LaserJock> sure
<robotgeek> ++
* nixternal loves bzr
<lifeless> LaserJock: have you filed bugs on https://launchpad.net/products/bzr ?
<LaserJock> lifeless: nope, the are usually reported before I ever find them
<robotgeek> can we move to next point on agenda?
<lifeless> LaserJock: well please highlight those to me, j-a-meinel or poolie
<robotgeek> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KubuntuDesktopGuide
<LaserJock> yeah, we need to move on
<lifeless> LaserJock: supporting ubuntu is quite high on our priority list.
<lifeless> tchau, thanks for the time.
<robotgeek> thanks lifeless 
<nixternal> thanks lifeless 
<somerville32> thanks :] 
<nixternal> so, are we going forward with topic-based help?
<robotgeek> hmm, all i am worried about is upstream. 
<robotgeek> i really dont want to do all the work of splitting it up, and then not having a tool to view it
<LaserJock> ok, hang on. did we get to what docs we are doing yet?
<nixternal> same here
<robotgeek> LaserJock: i guess not :)
<nixternal> LaserJock: which docs for TBH?
<nixternal> i am guessing the desktop guides at least for right now
<LaserJock> well, are we including any new docs?
<nixternal> i know that we are changing the way the About Kubuntu and the Kubuntu Release Notes with 7.04
<nixternal> LaserJock: i think working the desktop guides into a TBH system should be the first goal, to try it out
<nixternal> instead of trying multiple docs and it ends up failing miserably
<robotgeek> ++
<LaserJock> heh, what I'm saying is, are we planning on including any additional docs in Feisty?
<robotgeek> i was wondering about the "Switching from windows" thing too
<nixternal> then again...there needs to be a common program to read the TBH docs in order to conform to any uniformity
<LaserJock> another thing is media
<LaserJock> do we want to keep shipping the docs we have been, what about lulu and HTML
<robotgeek> LaserJock: do we know if any people bought from lulu?
<LaserJock> I know of people
<nixternal> i personally enjoy lulu, as i have purchased my printed docs through them in the past..but if im the only one ;p
<robotgeek> html ++, pdf is atrocious (atleast on my machine)
<nixternal> pdf is atrocius w/o a doubt, but good for those doze users who might be interested
<LaserJock> good for any users, IMO
<LaserJock> Burgwork: you still with us?
* Riddell goes on holiday, bye all
<Burgwork> LaserJock: sort of
<LaserJock> cya Riddell 
<nixternal> bye Riddell 
<nixternal> Riddell: i have the smb4k updates as well
<nixternal> i will get the packaged and put on revu asap
<robotgeek> lulu is definetly a lot of work, so if there were not a lot of people using lulu, we can still discuss
<robotgeek> Riddell: enjoy
<nixternal> probably need to do an edgy package and possibly dapper to fix this problem as wel
<nixternal> l
<nixternal> can we get in touch with lulu and see if it is really worth it?
<robotgeek> i think from memory, mdke and madpilot did a lot of work. (sorry if i missed any others)
<LaserJock> ok, I wanted to throw out an example of a doc that I liked http://maemo.org/platform/docs/pymaemo/python_maemo_howto.html
<nixternal> the pdf's on the help server can be printed as well...if a person can't print, take the pdf to your local print shop and for less than 5 they will hook you up
<LaserJock> nixternal: mdke should have the stats
<LaserJock> nixternal: he "owns" our lulu account
<robotgeek> so, we stick with html, pdf and will get stats from mdke and decide a bit later?
<LaserJock> that's fine
<nixternal> LaserJock: i like the layout there as well...you have the single page, and then have the pdf/print options up top
<LaserJock> what I'm more interested in is perhaps we should have HTML/PDF only docs
<nixternal> we do don't we? or is there more?
<LaserJock> well, the styleguide is the only thing I can think of that we don't ship
<nixternal> ahh, ok
<robotgeek> LaserJock: you mean only one of the either?
<robotgeek> by ship, we mean with ubuntu cd ?
<LaserJock> yes
<nixternal> we do ship to much
<somerville32> I think more content and less different formats, haha
<nixternal> don't know why i have the server guide on my machie default
<robotgeek> html, we should ship by default. maybe a link to pdf to download from the net?
<somerville32> Like, there is no documentation on how to configure pppoe connection (ie. ADSL)
* somerville32 nods.
<LaserJock> robotgeek: not what media to ship, what docs to ship
<nixternal> robotgeek: we have to consider those w/o internet though as well
<LaserJock> right
<robotgeek> oh okay, sorry
<LaserJock> the server guide is also best as a CLI resource
<nixternal> man serverguide ;)
<nixternal> or 
<nixternal> info serverguide
<LaserJock> or perhaps lynx serverguide
<nixternal> info would be better as we can do linking
<robotgeek> do we ship packaging guide with default ubuntu?
<LaserJock> yes
<LaserJock> ubuntu and kubuntu
<robotgeek> maybe that is not necessary, because we dont ship a compiler by defaul anyways?
<LaserJock> you don't have to have a compiler, but you do need other tools
<robotgeek> true. all that you have to install anyways, maybe we mention where to download or install packaging guide in both desktop guides?
<somerville32> Personally, I enjoyed reading the packaging guide when my internet was broken, haha
<LaserJock> what I'm trying to get at here is, what do we want the users to see?
<robotgeek> personally, i would just have the desktop guide, and that's about it. 
<LaserJock> and how do we get it to them
<nixternal> ditto
<somerville32> Well, I think how-to configure the net is very very important
<somerville32> And it is lacking right now
<somerville32> Once people get on the internet, there is a ton of resources available to them.
<nixternal> and that will get implemented eventually
<LaserJock> here's the other thing, are people really using the shipped docs?
<nixternal> LaserJock: we need to figure out what is up with the TBH. people push it, and thats it so far..what all needs to be done on our end?  we need to figure out if we are redesigning, or staying the course ;p
<LaserJock> I don't really see any big thing with TBH
<robotgeek> i doubt it, from the questions i get on irc. i swear, we need a Help icon on the desktop!
<LaserJock> we got a help icon on the panel with Edgy
<nixternal> LaserJock: with the shipped docs, i hear about a 50/50 prospective on that...people like us who have been using the system long enough don't, but our switchers or newbs do
<LaserJock> I believe
<nixternal> and Caroline Ford obviously ;)
<LaserJock> heh
<robotgeek> who is Caroline Ford? /me missed the joke!
<LaserJock> is it better to give people the essentials they need to get a functioning computer
<nixternal> robotgeek: she is the best ghost proofreader the docteam has
<LaserJock> and then do the rest online
<nixternal> LaserJock: i say yes to that, BUT..what about those w/o the internet? do we remain considerate, or do we go logical
<robotgeek> nixternal: as far as Kubuntu is concerned, i think we want to talk upstream to see if it is feasible to implement topic based help, if it is: we move to TBH, else: we stay current
<nixternal> logical is providing the new user with everything they need to get up and running
<LaserJock> robotgeek: why can't you do it now?
<nixternal> robotgeek: as of right now, it is feasible, but who is going to do the work?
<nixternal> i don't think KHelpCenter is solid enough
<robotgeek> i meant implementing it in time for Feisty. 
<nixternal> never honestly
<nixternal> nobody has anything good to push on it..all i have continued to see is talk, no action yet
<nixternal> unless something is going on behind the scenes that i don't know of
<LaserJock> ok, but I really don't understand the problem here
<LaserJock> the proposal is to kinda restructure the Desktop Guide so that it is more topical
<LaserJock> and on the frontpage show that more
<nixternal> LaserJock: the problem would be do we continue utilizing the docbook the way we always have, or do we take a risk with a new way of doing it so it can work with the topic based help
<robotgeek> LaserJock: the problem is, we can create the TBH docs, but if it can't be viewed in the help center, its kinda useless. 
<LaserJock> I really don't get the problem, perhaps I'm dense
<nixternal> or maybe i am ;)
<nixternal> im going with the latter
<robotgeek> okay, now i am confused :)
<nixternal> lol
<LaserJock> well, so we have the desktop guides
<LaserJock> that are written in more of a traditional, book-like fashion
<LaserJock> so we want to restructure it into more bite-sized topical chunks
<LaserJock> that's doable
<robotgeek> so if i get it straight, the tools to view the docs will not change? (no search,etc)
<LaserJock> so the only problem I see is how do we make a frontpage for people
<nixternal> i think graphically enticing and to the point
<nixternal> are you here for help? do you want to learn more about the operating system? history lesson? etc, etc, etc...
<LaserJock> so perhaps we will need general category pages
<somerville32> I don't think history is important
<somerville32> Well, it is
<somerville32> but not important enough to ship
<nixternal> i just used it for filler
* somerville32 nods.
<nixternal> well, it has been important to ship since day one though, about ubuntu is a history lesson
<nixternal> although, those are getting merged into ubiquity
<nixternal> so when you install you can read all of that now
<robotgeek> i dont really see an issue with moving the KDG to topic based help, if the end user can view the docs. i guess i had misunderstood
<nixternal> same here robotgeek
<LaserJock> so the only real issue is how to get a khelpcenter front page that works well with our more TBH docs
<robotgeek> on the issue of which docs to ship, is the general consensus to ship only desktop guides (we can ask for input on ml too)
<LaserJock> not necessarily
<LaserJock> it looks like the server guide will be included in the Topic Based Helpl
<nixternal> LaserJock: so the front page will be a seperate doc/entity?
<nixternal> that will then link to the kdg?
<nixternal> or into the chunks
<LaserJock> the chunks
<LaserJock> or something like that
<LaserJock> that's what the Kubuntu guys get to figure out :-)
<nixternal> why not the ubuntu guys?
<LaserJock> cause they will be doing the same thing with yelp
<somerville32> What about Xubuntu?
<nixternal> kubuntu guys got it made, we read html, no xml parsing here ;)
<robotgeek> nixternal: heh
<nixternal> somerville32: that is up to the xubuntu team to decide
<nixternal> although...
<nixternal> they should be in with all of this as well..there is way to much seperation
<LaserJock> hehe, my bzr is still trying to branch the docs
* somerville32 nods.
<nixternal> and every project has something different
<robotgeek> LaserJock: i cancelled mine
<somerville32> I was told that the main doc group encompassed xubuntu as well
<LaserJock> well, who does Xubuntu docs?
<somerville32> No one really
<nixternal> one person that i have seen
<somerville32> John Levin apparently a contact
<somerville32> But he told me differently
<LaserJock> well, I don't know what they use to view the help
<LaserJock> but it'd be nice if we were all consistent
* somerville32 nods.
<nixternal> not only consistant, but present
<LaserJock> nixternal: it looks to me like khelpcenter would need some kind of wrapper doc
<nixternal> jeesh
<nixternal> LaserJock: it wouldn't be any different that yelps, just that we build ours out to html
<LaserJock> well, it's tough to build a doc community
<nixternal> and just as tough to get them all together for a meeting as well
<LaserJock> nixternal: I"m not sure, I get the impression that yelp is pretty beastly for the frontpage
<LaserJock> usually they have to work with upstream to make changes
<nixternal> really
<nixternal> i didn't know that
<nixternal> so maybe KHelpCenter isn't all that bad then ;)
<LaserJock> khelpcenter is just like an index or tree view
<robotgeek> khelpcenter opens up a list of docs. we can't change taht, really. we can decide how to present the desktop gudie frontpage
<LaserJock> yelp actually has a Frontpage
<nixternal> OMG! I just realised I stood someone up tonight..i heard them countdown the lighting of the chicago tree on tv...oh well ;)
<LaserJock> robotgeek: more like a Kubuntu frontpage
<nixternal> oh..ok, i know what you are saying now
<nixternal> that is easy to do
<robotgeek> LaserJock: maybe we can get khelpcenter to open up a different page, lol
<nixternal> we can hide the documentation from the list for just a single front page
<nixternal> oooh...ya, i forgot khelpcenter shows all of the kde docs
<robotgeek> okay, that works for us kubuntu guys, i think. 
<nixternal> and we don't want to hide those..those are very important
<nixternal> but when khelp center opens..i got it now
<nixternal> robotgeek: we have a buttload of work possibly ahead of us...
<robotgeek> nixternal: heh, yeah. 
<LaserJock> the least difficult thing, I think, would be to create a wrapper doc
<LaserJock> and only link to that in khelpcenter
<nixternal> we can work on the docs now, and then when Riddell gets back from holliday we can speak with him about changing how khelpcenter opens
<nixternal> that will upset upstream i am sure
<robotgeek> sounds like a plan
<LaserJock> no, it wouldn't touch upstream
<LaserJock> only Kubuntu
<nixternal> they already get upset when we funktify default settings
<nixternal> ya LaserJock, and kubuntu continues to stray away from kde principles that way though
<LaserJock> all I'm saying is only have 1 doc for Kubuntu docs
<nixternal> unless, it is as easy as a khelpcenterrc file
<LaserJock> it's as easy as the .desktop we ship
<nixternal> LaserJock: thats all there is going to be from us..About and Release are part of ubiquity now
<LaserJock> argg
<nixternal> well, the .desktop won't change the layout of khelpcenter
<LaserJock> you're not quite getting what I'm saying I don't think
<nixternal> oooh
<LaserJock> kubuntu-doc ships *1* .desktop that opens up *1* doc
<nixternal> i got what you are saying..and to do that would be to ditch khelpcenter, or ditch/hide the kde docs
<LaserJock> that then provides the links to the TBH
<LaserJock> it doesn't touch upstream
<nixternal> ok, and then have that doc link to all of the kde docs, or open up khelpcenter..possibly a different help viewer for kubuntu alone
<LaserJock> heh
<LaserJock> you're making this harder than I'm saying
<nixternal> right now, when you click help in kubuntu, khelpcenter pops up with a link to every "topic" which then links to "subtopics" which then link to "handbooks" ;)
<robotgeek> is that right, LaserJock ?
<LaserJock> ok, so I open khelpcenter
<nixternal> what you are saying is have it open to Kubuntu TBH, and that is all the user sees, and then they can access the rest from within this 1 doc
<LaserJock> I get a list of the Kubuntu docs
<LaserJock> if I click on kubuntu
<nixternal> you get more than kubuntu docs in khelpcenter
<LaserJock> doesn't matter
<nixternal> kubuntu, and every kde doc possible ;)
<LaserJock> I'm saying you click on "Kubuntu Documents"
<nixternal> but when it opens, that "welcome" screen is what we want?
<LaserJock> you get a lists of docs
<nixternal> ya
<nixternal> just change that?
<LaserJock> instead of having all those docs you could have just 1
<nixternal> easy
<robotgeek> should be possible, we khelpcenter does file arguemnts, i guess
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-11-25
<LaserJock> it'd be *nice* if you could replace that inital screen
<nixternal> dude...search feature in khelpcenter is garbage
<LaserJock> but I'm guessing that would take hacking khelpcenter
<nixternal> LaserJock: the first screen you see upon opening khelpcenter? thats what you mean by the initial one?
<LaserJock> yes
<robotgeek> LaserJock: that would just be modifyinhg the .desktop file for the help icon
<nixternal> that would be easy as well, but would be a hack to upstream stuff..have to pass that by Riddell first
<LaserJock> so you can open khelpcenter to a particlar doc?
<nixternal> ya, the .desktop file would pass 'khelpcenter /dir/of/documentation/*.html'
<robotgeek> nixternal: is that not a simple as khelpcenter /path/to/file
<nixternal> lol
<LaserJock> ok, then that would be cool
<nixternal> robotgeek: exactly
<nixternal> that is a super easy deal
<LaserJock> just have it open a wrapper HTML file that feeds into the TBH
<nixternal> yup
<LaserJock> there we go
<nixternal> but, that will be up to Riddell to decide on im affriad..is that ok?
<nixternal> i mean we can work on it, show it to him, and im sure he will say aya
<nixternal> yay rather
<LaserJock> sure
<LaserJock> but I don't think it's a very big change considering what you guys already change
<nixternal> so i think we should go ahead and chug away at the kdg, and then worry about that at the end
<robotgeek> cool, all that is squared away then
<nixternal> truthfully, it would be cool to have a help system that looks similar to our system settings layout
<robotgeek> heh. 
<LaserJock> well, I think this is an intermediate step
<nixternal> which we could do with xml/html
<LaserJock> it seems like both Gnome and KDE want to go to some sort of better help system
<nixternal> almost LaserJock, now we have to decide on how the layout of the dg's are gonna be
<nixternal> i like the layout mdke presented on the tbh spec
<nixternal> but Riddell approved a different layout, which won't be hard to persuade the change
<LaserJock> I think the key there was to make Ubuntu, Kubuntu, and the wiki consistent
<nixternal> ya
<nixternal> i don't like the wiki stuff all that much, but im sure it will grow on me
<nixternal> the wiki makes it tough to work on the same thing from more than one person at a time
* somerville32 loves the wiki.
<nixternal> i have to wait for you to make changes, so i can go in and make changes
<robotgeek> nixternal: same problem as in svn too
<nixternal> well, it is, but with emacs diff side-by-side it is a little easier
<LaserJock> nixternal: you can always gobby it
<nixternal> ooh
<nixternal> gobby is a good idea as well
<LaserJock> that's how we do the specs at UDS
<nixternal> yup
<LaserJock> just copy the wiki content into gobby, everybody hacks away, then when they're done copy it back into the wiki
<nixternal> but then again...while we are hacking away at gobby, whats going to stop userjoe from coming in and changing what is on the wiki already?
<nixternal> heck, that i don't care..i get emailed every change
<nixternal> so i can watch that
<LaserJock> well, people shouldn't be just hacking at our stuff
<robotgeek> nixternal: that's when the ACL's come into play, i think. 
<nixternal> although, i doubt robotgeek, jjesse, and myself will be hacking away at the same thing..im sure we will break it up anyways
<robotgeek> yeah, we will have to split it up. 
<LaserJock> ok
<LaserJock> what's left on the agenda
<nixternal> LaserJock: people are going to hack at our stuff regardless..they tried adding junk to the release notes during dapper and edgy
<robotgeek> LaserJock: we have not decided what docs to ship by default yet, have we
<LaserJock> nixternal: those really should be locked down when it gets close to time
<nixternal> true
<robotgeek> we can maybe get a default 404 page while linking to say the packaging guide
<LaserJock> robotgeek: I really think it's cool to ship everything
<robotgeek> LaserJock: i dont have a problem with that, really. if we dont care about space :)
<LaserJock> there was even an review of Ubuntu that mentioned how it was cool that the packaging guide was included
<LaserJock> my issue is more with how it will fit in with the topic based help
<nixternal> ya, have fun with that one ;)
<LaserJock> the server guide seems like it would fit in well
<LaserJock> I doubt the packaging guide will, so I imagine it will remain the way it is
<robotgeek> LaserJock: we just link to it, and its up to you if you want ot TBH it, or not
<nixternal> why is it necessary to ship the server guide with a desktop system?
<LaserJock> because the line between a server and desktop system can be pretty fuzzy
<nixternal> when you think linux server, it is black and white ;)
<robotgeek> nixternal: not really, my machine is a desktop, but is a server on the net. 
<nixternal> if client server is fuzzy, then they should stick to their iPoops
<nixternal> ;)
<LaserJock> we are getting to an age when people are starting to use more services
<nixternal> ok, the server guide can stay..but for server installs, i think it would be neat to have the server guide available via lynx (which would have to go into main if it isn't already), or create an info page for it
<LaserJock> yep
<LaserJock> I agree
<nixternal> info server
<nixternal> that would be cool..as you can do all of the linking and everything
<nixternal> and i believe we can export xml to the type of doc it is
<LaserJock> I also think we should spiff out the HTML
<LaserJock> I find help.ubuntu.com to be pretty blah
<nixternal> ya it is
<nixternal> but i think that is all changing someday though..as i keep hearing about a new website
<robotgeek> okay, we can move to the next one? (its been 2:30 hours already!)
<nixternal> what is the next one?
<nixternal> ubuntu training program?
<LaserJock> and then screencast I guess and we're done
* nixternal refreshes
<LaserJock> well, I'm not really sure what they want from use as far as the training program
<nixternal> ahhhhhhh
<nixternal> i have contacted the guy who sent the ubuntu training info out already
<nixternal> i don't see it being an issue for us helping out with it, but we need to stick to an agenda with it
<nixternal> we can't continue being lose..there are only 3 of us doing a meeting right now
<robotgeek> yeah, we can maybe continue it further on the list, with regard to the details of the training program/ next meeting
<nixternal> the training material is a potential high profile project..especially if it is going into LPIC
<nixternal> if i am correct, the documentation will be in manual forms which will more than likely be sold
<nixternal> that will be a lot of work as well
<LaserJock> ok, so what is the intended role of the doc team here?
<LaserJock> do they want use to keep training in mind so the can grab stuff from us?
<LaserJock> s/use/us/
<LaserJock> s/the/they/
<nixternal> no, it would be totally seperate
<robotgeek> brb
<LaserJock> ok, so then what's the point for us?
<nixternal> i doubt it would be on a published svn, aka the doc teams..but im not 100% sure on that either, i am only specualting as i am familiar with LPIC documentation/manuals
<nixternal> they would probably do it like the guys did when they did the book
<LaserJock> ok, but I'm still not see what they want
<nixternal> that stuff wasn't public during the creation im sure...at least i never heard of it or seen it until it was released
<LaserJock> are they wanting doc team people to join them?
<nixternal> LaserJock: they want to know if we want to help them write the documentation/training manuals
<nixternal> yes LaserJock 
<LaserJock> k
<LaserJock> kinda interesting since we don't seem to have the resources to do our own docs
<nixternal> probably need to wait for more info on it..my reply said i was open to help, but the reply back was minimal with info
<nixternal> heh, that is very true
<LaserJock> I was rather hoping they could help us ;-)
<nixternal> no doubt
<LaserJock> ok, so not a lot there
<LaserJock> moving on?
<nixternal> use of screencasts...why duplicate work that is already out there?
<robotgeek> back, i guess there is not much we can do ATM
<robotgeek> screencasts, somerville32 
<somerville32> Are you guys done discussing screencasts and ready for me?
<robotgeek> somerville32: no, we want us to tell what you want to do :)
<somerville32> lol
<robotgeek> damn, /me is tired. 
<nixternal> hehe
<LaserJock> somebody talk before we all fall over
<LaserJock> screencast are cool, we should have some
<somerville32> lol
<LaserJock> done
* somerville32 needs to go pee. brb
<robotgeek> anyways, they can't be shipped with default distro (cause cd does not have that much space). issues with flash/your favourite container
<robotgeek> not being available for all distros, etc. 
<LaserJock> I think help.ubuntu.com would be a great place to put then
<LaserJock> *them
<nixternal> ubuntuvideo.com
<robotgeek> who runs ubuntuvideo?
<nixternal> john little
<Burgwork> who si currently awol
<nixternal> if h.u.c is to host them, we would have to create a styling guide for them
<LaserJock> I think we could probably make some of  our own
<LaserJock> but also take contributions
<LaserJock> ubuntuvideo.com seems more generic then what we'd want
<nixternal> we need to make it known though that they need to use default settings when doing them
<LaserJock> anyway...
<LaserJock> I don't see any reason why we couldn't put screencasts on help.u.c
<somerville32> :] 
<LaserJock> ok, what about Xubuntu?
<nixternal> don't know anything much about it..but i gotta run
<nixternal> i will bbl
<LaserJock> cya
<somerville32> : O
<robotgeek> later nixternal 
<LaserJock> anybody know about this item?
* somerville32 raises his hand.
<LaserJock> ok, shoot
<somerville32> The documentation efforts for Xubuntu is pretty poor and I'd like to discuss how we can organize a concentrated effort into improving the situation.
<robotgeek> we need people to come forward and take responsibility towards xubuntu-docs, really
<somerville32> Well, there was a meeting on January 17th
<somerville32> "documenting efforts have started in the ubuntu-doc team, one of the contact persons is John Levin"
<robotgeek> we are more than willing to help people to go thru our workflow and technical details, but key point being bodies 
<robotgeek> what is John Levin's irc nick, i dont know this person otherwise :)
<robotgeek> Luzi Thoeny did the desktop guide for xubuntu, i am not sure for edgy. 
<somerville32> It looks like it was almost just copied over
<somerville32> Because there is stuff out of date in the Edgy guide
<robotgeek> to be honest, i havent kept up with edgy documentation effort, so i don't know. 
<somerville32> Whould it be useful to create an lp team xubuntu-doc and then make it a member of ubuntu-doc and then organize interested individuals from there?
<LaserJock> doubtful
<somerville32> edubuntu did it
<LaserJock> what would be useful is to post on the xubuntu mailing lists and in the IRC channels
<LaserJock> somerville32: and it hasn't helped edubuntu out
<somerville32> So, does ubuntu-docs support Xubuntu?
<LaserJock> how do you mean?
<somerville32> Are you guys responsible for Xubuntu documentation?
<LaserJock> well, that's a kinda tough question
<LaserJock> we do have Xubuntu documentation in the repo
<LaserJock> and I believe xubuntu-docs were built from that
<LaserJock> but I haven't seen much of any activity on the docs for a while
* somerville32 nods.
<LaserJock> and I'm not sure that there is anybody from Xubuntu that is a doc team member
<LaserJock> we certainly welcome anybody
<robotgeek> Tue, 12 Sep 2006 was the last commit there, i think. 
<somerville32> But Xubuntu is just Ubuntu w/ Xfce4
<somerville32> Ubuntu-docs is for... documenting Ubuntu, right?
<LaserJock> the LP team?
<somerville32> So "Xubuntu" falls under the responsability of the ubuntu-docs team, right?
<somerville32> I understand that you need bodies to do work
<LaserJock> the Ubuntu Documentation Team tries to include all projects that want to
<somerville32> But it just seems to me that Xubuntu is off the radar
<somerville32> and hence efforts aren't being devoted to it
<LaserJock> exactly
<robotgeek> somerville32: yes, we just dont have any people working on it
<LaserJock> so people are welcome to work on it
<robotgeek> that means you, somerville32 :)
<somerville32> You guys encourage people to work on specific documentation tasks, right?
<LaserJock> no
<LaserJock> people work on what they want
<somerville32> Well, how do you organize efforts?
<LaserJock> people work on what they want
<somerville32> Do you have a list of things that need to be worked on?
<LaserJock> we try to dicuss and organize things so that other people can see what we're doing
<LaserJock> not exactly, but kinda
<somerville32> I'm just saying, if you guys included xubuntu stuff in your discussion
<LaserJock> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Projects
<somerville32> People might say "Hey, I can work on this Xubuntu related thinger"
<LaserJock> if there were people to include then yes
<LaserJock> if people show up that are interested in Xubuntu then they are welcome to discuss it
<somerville32> Alrighty, lol
<LaserJock> but it's a bit hard to discuss something that nobody is working on
<somerville32> Ok, I'm interested in working on Xubuntu documentation.
<LaserJock> awesome
<somerville32> Can I join the doc team?
<LaserJock> sure
<LaserJock> not like immediatly
<LaserJock> but you can certainly work towards that
<somerville32> Well, I've already done a lot of work on the wiki.
<LaserJock> generally we want you to be an Ubuntu Memeber and also send in some patches to the doc team
<somerville32> Ah, ok.
<robotgeek> but generally, that is not a oainful process 
<robotgeek> painful, err
<robotgeek> okay, does that finish off all topics?
<somerville32> Well...
<somerville32> I just want to make sure that Xubuntu will have a presence.
<somerville32> I know you said that it requires people being interested and working on that stuff
<LaserJock> then somebody needs to make it, and that somebody sounds like you
<LaserJock> :-)
<somerville32> I'm having a hard time articulating what I mean
<LaserJock> you want us to pay attention to Xubuntu, right?
<somerville32> Right.
<LaserJock> I'm just saying that's pretty hard to do if we don't use it and don't have a particular interest there
<LaserJock> so while we welcome any contribution and thing Xubuntu is great
<LaserJock> I doubt if many of use will be writing Xubuntu docs :-)
<LaserJock> *us
<robotgeek> heh, i dont use xubuntu, so i dont write xubuntu or ubuntu docs
<LaserJock> so if you could help organize some people and maybe send an email of what you want to do with Xubuntu docs then I think you could get something going
<LaserJock> somerville32: is there something in particulra that the doc team could do to help you?
<somerville32> It just seems like you're asking me to organize the documentation effort for Xubuntu when I have no idea how things work.
<LaserJock> hehe
<robotgeek> yeah, it usually works like that. though we can help you with the details/ other difficulties 
<LaserJock> ok, then maybe you should start working with the Xubuntu docs for a little bit to get the swing of things
<somerville32> It would be nice if you could see if there are people interested in working on Xubuntu documentation.
<LaserJock> well, the thing is that you are probably closer to Xubuntu then we are
<robotgeek> somerville32: it usually does not work that way, jjesse and I were alone for the dapper release. nixternal joined us in edgy ( i kinda dropped out)
<robotgeek> someone has to pick up the ball, and others will join you
<somerville32> What about John Levin?
<somerville32> Do you know anything about him?
<robotgeek> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JohnLevin is his wiki page, maybe contact him and see if he is interested?
<robotgeek> though i doubt it, his wiki page is pretty old
<LaserJock> somerville32: ok, here's what I suggest, email the doc team and xubuntu mailing lists saying you are interested in Xubuntu documentation and seeing if anybody else is interested
* somerville32 nods.
<somerville32> Perfect.
<somerville32> :)
<LaserJock> if you get some "bites" then we can discuss further about how to proceed
* somerville32 nods.
<somerville32> We have a meeting tomorrow
<somerville32> So we can discuss it
<somerville32> And I'll get back to you guys after we decide what to do
<LaserJock> ok, excellent
<robotgeek> awesome
<somerville32> :)
<robotgeek> okay, i guess that is it for me!
* somerville32 waves.
<robotgeek> this has got to be the longest meeting i've been in!
<somerville32> <g>
<robotgeek> i will make up a summary and mail the group
* poningru reads scrollback
<LaserJock> good luck
<poningru> hehe
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Current meeting: Xubuntu | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 28 Nov 16:00 UTC: LoCo Team | 29 Nov 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu
<somerville32> Hey Everyone
<TheSheep> Hello
<somerville32> Do we want to use gobby too or just IRC fine for everyone?
<Jmak> Hello
<Jmak> irc fine
<vinze> IRC here too
<somerville32> I'm ready to start. Is everyone else ready to start?
<vinze> Yup
* Zeqfreed is ready for lurking
<somerville32> So, who is all here for the Xubuntu meeting?
<vinze> Me
<Jmak> me
<TheSheep> moi
<vinze> Wow... So many :P
<vinze> Are we going to treat all items in their order on the Wiki?
<kalikiana> hello at all :)
<Solol> me too, though i won't have muxh to say
<somerville32> We can float around if there is something that a majority of us feel need to be discussed.
<vinze> Right...
<vinze> So, what should we handle first?
<Jmak> artworks
<vinze> Fine with me
<earobinson> yup
<vinze> Any idea what the sister projects are going to do (like the glossy for edgy)?
<Jmak> For feisty i want to modify the color scheme of the graphics
<TheSheep> green? :)
<vinze> Hmm... What's the motivation?
<vinze> Yuk :(
<vinze> :P
* cellofellow likes green
* vinze doesn't
<kalikiana> green is nice
<somerville32> Should we ask Mark Shuttleworth to give us direction since he is giving direction to Ubuntu and Kubuntu?
<Jmak> No, it would remain blue but more saturated
<cellofellow> Jmak: then what? Become Kubuntu's Dapper colors?
<TheSheep> Jmak: something like this? http://welcome.sheep.art.pl/static/xubuntu_logo.png
<vinze> Too plain I think
<Jmak> Mark said number of times that he doesnt want to interfere
<vinze> The different colours should be more contrasting IMHO
<cello_rasp> pale tango blue is in keeping with xfce
<Jmak> Look at these
<Jmak>                                           http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/4062/screenshot1od7.png    http://img49.imageshack.us/img49/1783/screenshot2xt6.png    http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/1802/screenshoteyett8.png       
<TheSheep> cello_rasp: the current xubuntu logo is more purplish than the tango color scheme
<Jmak> The pale is getting boring
<TheSheep> Jmak: woudn't such a saturated background be tiring for the eyes?
<vinze> I like the second one, the third is still loading
<vinze> Yeah I agree on that TheSheep 
<cello_rasp> screenshoteyett8.png's panels are too garish and the icons are too gnome-icon-like, but the first 2 are going in the right direction.
<cellofellow> Jmak: I like the last one. The first one looks too much lik Kubuntu Dapper and the second one doesn't look Ubuntu enough.
<cellofellow> At least the wallpapers
<Jmak> the icons are later
<TheSheep> how about a light blue?
<somerville32> Can I interupt?
<vinze> I'd go for darker
<vinze> Bring it on Cody
<Jmak> Darker colors always better for the eye
<vinze> And less disturbing, and less general
<kalikiana> the first one a bit darker  :)
<somerville32> Determining the actual direction of art for Feisty is out of the scope of this meeting. There is a lot of the agenda and so I think it might be more effective to see who is interested in working on the artwork, see who wants to lead the artwork effort, arrange a follow-up meeting, and hear from people what they think the direction should be.
<cello_rasp> Yes, a forums thread might be best.
<vinze> Good point, so who is interested to work on the artwork?
<Jmak> I can do that
<TheSheep> me too
<vinze> Great, that's two already
<vinze> Any more?
<Jmak> Faisty should be super-duper in terms of visuals
<cellofellow> Next on Agenda: Xubuntu feisty dev-roadmap
<vinze> If not, I think Jmak and TheSheep, you can have your hands on it together and arrange user feedback
<somerville32> Just a sec, cellofellow
<cellofellow> ok, :)
<Jmak> Therer still more stuff here to discuss
<earobinson> did we miss the website?
<vinze> Message Cody, Adam or me so the website can have a link to a forum topic or something where you ask for user input
<Jmak> The icons
<Jmak> What icons shoudl we use tango or something else
<somerville32> JMak: Are you interested in heading the artwork efforts?
<Jmak> ok
<vinze> I think when you're with two there's no real need for an official coordinator
<cellofellow> I like tango
<somerville32> vinze: Well, we'd like to get more people involved of course :] 
<TheSheep> in terms of completeness, there is practically only a choice of tango or gnome
<Jmak> I think the artworks should be coordinated to prevent endig up with patchworks
<vinze> Sure, but as apparently there are two as of yet...
<vinze> Ah, that's true
<Jmak> Iwould like the gray tango but not theblue one
<cello_rasp> It should look good on white, as well
<vinze> Blue might pose a problem because of the colour scheme, all blue might be too overwhelming IMHO
<TheSheep> Jmak: or we could use something contrasting with the general theme, so that it's not boring
<kalikiana> Let us stay with Tango as it is
<cellofellow> which is used now?
<TheSheep> cello_rasp: blue tango
<TheSheep> sry
<Jmak> The mubuntu peopel will use the blach tango
<TheSheep> cellofellow: blue tango
<cellofellow> :)
<kalikiana> blue tango fits blue xubuntu :)
<Czubek> Jmak: mubuntu?
<earobinson> i with kalikiana
<Jmak> Yes, a new multimedia flavor
<cello_rasp> i think blue tango is perfect at the moment but a slight tweak to the location icons, to bring it into line with a future identity, is not a bad idea.
<Jmak> It will be super cool, all black
<kalikiana> cello_rasp: locations?
<cellofellow> places you meen?
<cello_rasp> Jmak: ubuntu-studio?
<cello_rasp> places, sorry.
<TheSheep> pink :D
<Jmak> right ubuntu-studio
<vinze> http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Ubuntu_forks
<somerville32> Alrighty.
<somerville32> Lets review.
<somerville32> 1. JMak is going to be our "artist-in-chief" and will lead our artwork efforts.
<somerville32> 2. JMak and TheSheep are both interested on working on artwork
<somerville32> 3. We have a good idea of what we want to do with artwork for Feisty.
<vinze> OK... Next item?
<somerville32> Now, do you guys want to pick a tenative date for a get together to further discuss artwork stuff or should we just move on for now?
<cellofellow> Next on Agenda: Xubuntu feisty dev-roadmap
<cellofellow> good idea
<somerville32> Lets discuss the website first since the people are here to discuss it
<Jmak> For the time being we can discuss art releted stuff on the mailing list
<somerville32> I know some of the dev team who said they'd be here aren't here yet so it wouldn't be good to discuss the dev-roadmap without them.
* somerville32 nods at Jmak.
<cellofellow> ok thn
<vinze> Let's move on to the website
<somerville32> Can everyone take a peak at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings/Archive/Agenda/2006-11-25 ?
<_MMA_> vinze: Thank goodness Ubuntu Studio isnt on your link. ;)
<vinze> OK
<vinze> Hehe
<vinze> I liked Subuntu
<somerville32> I've already archived today's Agenda and also elaborated on some stuff.
<somerville32> I've also put a brain dump on the agenda for the website.
<vinze> We should also discuss with what and how often we plan to update it
<cellofellow> ok. openning said website
* somerville32 nods.
<vinze> The main Ubuntu website AFAIK isn't updated too regularly
<earobinson> nope they keep it the same... its good cuz its always a familiar place to go to
<vinze> OK... So everything that stays the same should be of high quality
<somerville32> I agree.
<cellofellow> somerville32: you notice it says Zooboontoo for pronunciation on the website.
<vinze> Perhaps we can collaborate on something on the wiki and when it's finished put it on the main website
<vinze> Yeah that's true AFAIK
<vinze> Should we take it off?
<vinze> Because I'm not 100% sure
<somerville32> I don't think it really matters.
<somerville32> People will pronounce it how they like
<somerville32> haha
<vinze> So... Take it off?
<earobinson> ya
<cellofellow> should the website look like ubuntu.com or kubuntu.org? or like it is but better?
* kalikiana pronounces 'ksooboontoo'
<TheSheep> cellofellow: you mean layout?
<cellofellow> yeah
<earobinson> i figure it should be based off them as it is now, so its the same feel just different content
<somerville32> I'd like to propose the following mandate for the website:
<somerville32> The Xubuntu website is an excellent tool for propagating information to the community and is generally the first impression made on end-users. Hence, The Xubuntu Website must maintain a professional image, be informative, useful, and personify the personality of the Xubuntu distribution and Xubuntu community.
<vinze> Isn't that all quite logical?
<cellofellow> Yeah, at current the Xubuntu website is just short of professional and makes Xubuntu seem like a side project.
<TheSheep> vinze: note what's *not* mentioned :)
<Czubek> ubuntu.com layout is better IOM.
<vinze> Yeah it could be a bit more proffessional
<vinze> I prefer a fluid layout
<kalikiana> imho xubuntu.org is nice - but its content is weak
<Czubek> kalikiana: true.
<TheSheep> Czubek: isn't it the same, only with smaller fonts?
<vinze> A fluid layout that also looks fluid, I mean :P
<somerville32> Should we add tabs?
<somerville32> Like, at the top like the other websites do?
<TheSheep> somerville32: plese no
<vinze> What content should there be at the website?
<cellofellow> Point of Inquery: Does it use a CMS system of some type?
<earobinson> tabs are really good imo
<vinze> And what should be in the tabs?
<somerville32> cellowfellow: CMS - Drupal
<vinze> Drupal
<TheSheep> cellofellow: drupal
<TheSheep> lol
<Czubek> TheSheep: maybe, small difference but i like it more ;)
* kalikiana votes against tabs
<vinze> What should be in the tabs?
<TheSheep> personally I like the style that all the gnome.org and related pages have
<TheSheep> looks *very* proffessional
<cellofellow> Tabs it needs if it's going to hold other sections.
<earobinson> what not have the same tab links as the ubuntu website?
<earobinson> like wiki and such
<kalikiana> just stay with the links at the right side
<cellofellow> kubuntu has them too. I think they help stay organized.
* somerville32 nods.
<TheSheep> provided they will be the same and in the same order
<vinze> Hmm.. Yeah, then we could also drop the links at the right I think
<vinze> And merge multiple pages
<somerville32> We still need the right links
<cellofellow> ubuntu and kubuntu both have sidebars.
* somerville32 nods.
<kalikiana> so we'll have xubuntu.org design with kubuntu tabs?
<TheSheep> I think the huge logo is not needed on every page -- just a splash on the first page, and small logo somewhere at the top on the rest, just as a reminder
<vinze> I think a header helps to give a site a profile
<vinze> And splashes are annoying
<TheSheep> and the blue 'margins' make some trouble
<cellofellow> margins make pages look more consisten across screensizes.
<kalikiana> just the logo in small at the top, but no splash, so you can go to the front page from anywhere
<TheSheep> I mean, the site looks 'closed'
<vinze> How about this for tabs: Xubuntu | Community (or Get Involved?) | Get Xubuntu | Support
<kalikiana> the front page should be a news page
<TheSheep> cellofellow: provided the content is fixed-width, which is not the case
<somerville32> + Wiki
* vinze votes against margins
<kalikiana> vinze: + downloads
<cellofellow> TheSheep: it's not? well, then. get rid of them.
<vinze> kalikiana:  downloads would be in Get Xubuntu
<vinze> But perhaps we would have to name it Downloads instead of Get Xubuntu
<TheSheep> we still need graphics on the first page -- logo, screenshots, smiling people, whatever
<somerville32> I think we should try to mirror ubuntu.com as much as possible
<vinze> And then put an update howto under support
<somerville32> Just with a different colour pal.
<kalikiana> vinze: oh, yes, sry
<TheSheep> vinze: yeah, that's more intuitive
<cellofellow> Well, ubuntu and kubunta call it get cause you can get CD's too. Not so with Xubuntu.
<earobinson> I agree with somerville32 
<vinze> Yeah we should put a clear notice about that
<Czubek> smiling people, that's what i like ;)
<vinze> Unless they will be doing it for Feisty
<vinze> How about smiling people dressed in dark-blue?
<cellofellow> Kubuntu has gears, Ubuntu has smiling people, Xubuntu has rats.
<vinze> Yeah, true cellofellow 
<TheSheep> vinze: smiling people dressed as mice ;)
<Czubek> lol
<cellofellow> lol
<vinze> Oh that would be cool! :P
<vinze> And I think the font should be larger
<somerville32> Xubuntu is still Linux for Humans... not Linux for Rats.
<somerville32> haha
<somerville32> So we can incorporate a people theme too
<TheSheep> font size shoudn't be set at all -- then you get your browser's defaults, which is the only sane solution
<vinze> Yeah I agree
<vinze> And if they need to be smaller or larger, do it in percentages
<cellofellow> I think it looks a little drab. Ubuntu is tasteful, Kubuntu is glossy, Xubuntu is just flat.
<kalikiana> use 'pt' sizes :)
<vinze> Kubuntu looks overdone to me
<TheSheep> kalikiana: naah, *nobody* has dpi set right
<vinze> 'pt' causes trouble on macs
<cellofellow> Anything glossy does.
<TheSheep> maybe we could be soft and plushy
<TheSheep> and cuddly
<vinze> Plushy sounds great to me
<cellofellow> with little soft mice runnig around. lol
<kalikiana> TheSheep: teddy-bear-brown? :P
<TheSheep> kalikiana: pink
<vinze> But I have no idea on how to do that, it'd probably be extra load on the artwork team
<cellofellow> it needs to match the distro's colors whatever it does.
<somerville32> Thats a good point
<vinze> Plush mice
<TheSheep> vinze: gimpressionist :)
<somerville32> Is the artwork team going to contribute to website artwork?
<vinze> Wow, gimppressionist is cool
<TheSheep> somerville32: that's my plan, at least, I can also do the whole css
<earobinson> well xfce is a lightweight graphical desktop environment, so shouldn't xubuntu be a lightweight ubuntu?
<vinze> Well, I think the website should match the main theme
<vinze> I can also do css, but not images
<vinze> (Think of logo, etc.)
* cellofellow ins't so great with vectors either.
<somerville32> Ok, lets review.
<vinze> Vectors even worse
<vinze> Go on:
<TheSheep> maybe xubuntu.org should be flat (and clean), so that it shows how lightweight it is?
<somerville32> I like the fluffy, cuddly feeling
<somerville32> haha
<somerville32> Anyhows.
<earobinson> TheSheep ... exactly
<vinze> How about web2.0-ish?
<cellofellow> Should still look good. Add some curvy corners or something.
<vinze> Minmalistic
<TheSheep> vinze: puh-leeeze
<somerville32> Xfce4 isn't minmalistic though
<vinze> TheSheep: What?
<kalikiana> simplisitc, no fancy ajax thingies
<somerville32> Xfce4 isn't simply
<earobinson> xfce4 is lightweight however
<vinze> No, not AJAXy
<somerville32> It is simply lightweight
<vinze> But I like web 2.0 layouts
<vinze> Just the CSS
<TheSheep> I take it stays on drupal?
<somerville32> Xfce4 is a powerful desktop environment
<cellofellow> Just not Gmail.
<TheSheep> somerville32: yes, but how do we want to advertise it? :)
<vinze> No not Gmail indeed :P
<cellofellow> TheSheep: why change the engine?
<somerville32> I like the cuddly, cute, idea
<kalikiana> css is okay, but i'd avoid any scripts, flash or transparency
<earobinson> http://www.xfce.org/index.php?page=overview&lang=en
<TheSheep> cellofellow: no reason, just making sure
<vinze> Strong, having at keast all the basics, but light-weight
<earobinson> Xfce is a lightweight desktop environment for unix-like operating systems. It aims to be fast and lightweight, while still being visually appealing and easy to use.
<TheSheep> kalikiana: of course
* somerville32 nods.
<vinze> Just use large fonts, large line-heights, and one or two gradients
<TheSheep> and shadows
<somerville32> I think a good direction for the website should be clean (not simple or flat), fluffy, warm, and inviting
<vinze> And of course font-family: sans-serif
<cellofellow> Let's make the website visually appealing and esy to use :)
<somerville32> I concur!
<vinze> That fits in
<TheSheep> somerville32: warm blue? :/
<vinze> Wait, I'm going to put it on the wiki
<somerville32> TheSheep: haha
<somerville32> Ok, maybe cuddly blue?
<TheSheep> somerville32: maybe we need a secondary color? yellow? red?
<TheSheep> red on blue looks nice
<somerville32> Our secondary colour is obvisously gray at this time
<TheSheep> somerville32: hardly warm
<cellofellow> two-tone blue is nice.
<kalikiana> blue and gray sounds nice
<somerville32> grayish-blue?
<cellofellow> is the new website going to debut for Feisty? or before that?
<somerville32> Cellofellow: Our new website has already debut
<somerville32> We just need to improve it
<somerville32> Anyhow, we're taking too much time on this subject.
<TheSheep> yeah, everyone 'knows' something about looks :)
<cellofellow> ok, I just thought you were going to improve it behind the scenes and then "release" it.
<vinze> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Website/Plans/Theme
<cellofellow> what about the screenshot gallery idea?
* cellofellow is looking at agenda
* somerville32 nods.
<somerville32> We can install a module
<somerville32> Once drupal 5.0 comes out
<somerville32> I suspect we'll be upgrading
<vinze> Yeah that'd be allright
<earobinson> cellofellow, that would be cool
<somerville32> Or so thats the impression I get from jon
<vinze> No link among the tabs needed, we can link there from the home page
<cellofellow> earobinson: not my idea, somerville32's idea.
<somerville32> and then I think we'll look at a screenshot module to help organize it
<somerville32> Can we start the review for this item?
<vinze> Yeah I think so
<somerville32> 1. The artwork team is going to contribute to the website effort with... artwork <g>
<cellofellow> we've mostly talked about looks. What about content?
<somerville32> 2. We're going to implement tabs at the top
<somerville32> 3. We're going to improve content in accordance of the mandate
<somerville32> 4. We're going to continue to work on improving the skin
<TheSheep> should we have a xubuntu tutorial, kind of a walktrough with screenshots?
<vinze> The Desktop Guide does that
<cellofellow> Isn't that the Welcome Centre? Or something Before the download?
<kalikiana> yep, the welcome center's for that
* cellofellow will brb
<TheSheep> kalikiana: it is? I though it's for general pointers and a link to the detailed tutorial :)
<vinze> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Website/Plans
<vinze> *cough* Desktop Guide
* somerville32 nods.
* cellofellow had a wacky idea
<kalikiana> TheSheep: yes, it's a first intro where later one can still read further - but we know that people first avoid to read :P
<vinze> Tell us cellofellow 
<cellofellow> Have a script that opens firefox on first login with tabs open to the Welcome Centre and te Xubuntu Website and stuff, and then deletes itself.
<vinze> Na, that'd be annoying I think
<vinze> Especially if it's someone's first encounter with Firefox or tabs
<vinze> Anyway, shall we continue to the next item?
<cellofellow> Puppy and DSL do it, and it goes away after the first login.
<somerville32> Thats why we have the welcome centre though
<somerville32> IT
<somerville32> It'll launch on first login
<cellofellow> Welcome Centre. Of course. If it's not there to welcome them, why call it that?
<somerville32> :] 
<vinze> We're getting off-topic...
<somerville32> Everyone ready to move to the next topic?
<cellofellow> Are we?
<vinze> How about discussing Community Involvement?
<cellofellow> ok
<earobinson> sure
* somerville32 nods.
<somerville32> And lets mix in "COLLABORATING WITH OTHER UBUNTU TEAMS" as well
<vinze> OK
<somerville32> We need to figure out how we can make it easier for people to get involved.
* TheSheep looks at somerville32's caps lock
<vinze> When someone wants to join, where would be the first place to look?
<somerville32> The website under "getting involved", haha
<TheSheep> vinze: wiki
<cellofellow> Launchpad?
<vinze> Right, website or wiki
<vinze> Perhaps launchpad
<earobinson> launchpad
<somerville32> I think if we had a page which lists the different teams
<somerville32> How to get involved
<somerville32> What needs to be done
<vinze> So we need to make it easy on those places to find out how to get involved
<somerville32> And things like how to sign up to the mailing list would be good
<TheSheep> and to keep them up to date
* somerville32 nods
<kalikiana> and a hint to #xubuntu-devel :)=
* somerville32 nods nods.
<vinze> Then there also are people who might not have the intention of getting involved, but might decide to do so if the coincidentally find out they can easily
* somerville32 nods.
<TheSheep> a 'what needs to be done' page last edited 2 years ago is hardly encouraging
<luzi> there's a big "Contributing" section on the wiki frontpage
<somerville32> There is also a big one at http://xubuntu.org/devel
<vinze> I think that should be split in multiple pages
<somerville32> Thats a good idea
<vinze> So people only have to read sections that apply to us
<vinze> *them
<vinze> And then process that in the wiki
<somerville32> We could also have a "general overview" page that talks about the mailing list and -devel channel
<somerville32> However, one con for splitting into different pages
<somerville32> Some of the sections don't have much content
<vinze> Perhaps merging some sections?
<cellofellow> un-subdivide or expand those littel sections.
<somerville32> TBH, I don't see a problem with the current page becuase there is an index at the top
<vinze> E.g. Reporting Bugs and " Ideas and feedback"
<somerville32> So it is the same thing anyhow
* cellofellow nods
<vinze> Well, it always discourages me when there's a lot of text on one page
<cellofellow> Commmunity involvement doesn't just meen dev. What about marketting, like spreadfirefox.com?
<somerville32> Thats on the page too
<somerville32> Speaking on advocacy
<cellofellow> point me too the page I'm lost.
<somerville32> We need to get a presence in the marketing team
<vinze> http://www.xubuntu.org/devel
<somerville32> http://xubuntu.org/devel
<vinze> lol
<vinze> OK, so who is in favour of splitting that page and who is against?
* vinze is in favour
<TheSheep> split
<somerville32> I don't think it is worth the effort.
<vinze> I don't mind doing it :P
<cellofellow> we should market xubuntu as a replacement for Win98, seeing Win98 is no longer supported by M$.
<vinze> 2:1
<cellofellow> Don't split.
<TheSheep> 2:2
<vinze> 2:2
<somerville32> Ubuntu doesn't have it split
<vinze> Crao
<vinze> *p
<somerville32> And it isn't a lot of text
<earobinson> vote no split
<somerville32> And then we'd have a ton of sub-menu links
<vinze> cellofellow: I don't agree, there are way more people that Xubuntu is good for
<vinze> No more than we do now somerville32 
<cellofellow> vinze: who said ONLY a replacement for win98?
<somerville32> We have 4 now and splitting would make 9
<somerville32> Maybe even 10 if we keep the meetings page
<vinze> Noone, but if we were marketing on that
<vinze> We should merge some sections then
<cellofellow> vinze: so, don't be exclusive. Think of something else xubuntu *excels* at.
<DrLock> no split: The index keeps the page from being intimidating, but being all on one page makes it easy to search quickly
<vinze> And I don't think we should have off-site links
<somerville32> 4:2 for not splitting
<vinze> Right...
<vinze> I give up :P
<somerville32> lol
<somerville32> I see what you mean vinze
<somerville32> But there isn't enough content yet to warrant it
<vinze> Any more points concerning the website?
<vinze> That's true
<somerville32> Well, I think the different teams should get their wiki pages updated and organized
<vinze> But why those off-site links in a submenu?
<somerville32> vinze: They are the team homepages
<vinze> Why not under the Artwork section a link to http://www.xubuntu.org/devel
<vinze> Etc.
<vinze> That would be much more logical IMHO
<cellofellow> good I dea.
<somerville32> We could do that for sure but that means people will spend another 30 seconds looking
<somerville32> And people want to get to their info quick
<vinze> Sorry I meant to wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Artwork
* somerville32 nods. I know what you meant.
<vinze> I think people looking to contribute to artwork would first look at the Artwork section and later or not at all at the menu
<cellofellow> so, redundantly spread info all over, or 1 topic 1 place?
<somerville32> I think we should have both
<cellofellow> :S ok
<vinze> The page won't be split, but I think moving the subsection off-site links from the menu to the subsections would be better
<somerville32> sub-menus to team homepages and links in description
<vinze> OK, so  I can add the links no matter what?
<TheSheep> do we really need links to team pages on every page?
<somerville32> It isn't on every page, TheSheep
<somerville32> Only on the contribute page
<TheSheep> I mean, most people will come there looking for info about xubuntu, not its development
<somerville32> Vinze: Yup :)
<TheSheep> ah, ok, I didn't understand the 'submenu' then :)
<vinze> Ah, they're already there
<somerville32> TheSheep: When you click "Get Involved", the submenu expands
<somerville32> Anyhow, back to getting people involved.
<somerville32> I think we need to get ourselves organized into teams and take responsability for keeping our content updated.
<somerville32> For example, the artwork team needs to work on getting their wiki pages updated and organized
<cellofellow> At what level do people start? Not jumping into development I don't think. Look at me. :)
<somerville32> We'll update the website and wiki to make "getting involved" easier.
<vinze> Translation, but that's more software-specific
<somerville32> Vinze: Not at all
<cellofellow> :?
<somerville32> Vinze: We can translate all our applications via Rosseta
<somerville32> Anyhows
<somerville32> Lets talk about collaboration with our ubuntu teams
<somerville32> *other
<somerville32> The big one is ubuntu-marketing
<vinze> OK I at least added a link to team meetings
<vinze> Yeah perhaps some people could attend their meetings?
<vinze> Anyway, I g2g, I'll read the logs 
<somerville32> We need to start lobbying them to include the promotion of Xubuntu
<cellofellow> Teams? Like ubuntu and kubuntu branches?
<vinze> Bye
* somerville32 waves.
* vinze waves back
<somerville32> This means that we need people interested in advocacy and marketing to work with them
<cellofellow> So, let Ubuntu people know Xubuntu is there?
* somerville32 nods.
* cellofellow nods back
<somerville32> Cellofellow: Would you be interested in working with them?
<somerville32> Make some contacts
<somerville32> Get things moving
<cellofellow> uh. I don't know, um. What would I have to do?
<somerville32> For most things, we could piggyback on their efforts.
<somerville32> Cellofellow: Well, you could attend their meetings, push Xubuntu where you can, make some contacts, etc.
<cellofellow> sounds like lobbying. :)
<earobinson> lol
<somerville32> <g>
<somerville32> I can help there too
<somerville32> But we need to make Xubuntu have presence. 
<cellofellow> I'll give it a shot. 
<cellofellow> You've my email somerville32 
<somerville32> Wicked. :] 
<somerville32> What other ubuntu teams can we work with? Any ideas?
<earobinson> doc team?
* somerville32 nods.
<somerville32> I talked with them last night.
<TheSheep> somerville32: kubuntu, take their themes ;)
<cellofellow> should be working with them anyways.
<somerville32> They said we need to get people interested in Xubuntu documentation
<cellofellow> TheSheep: huh?
<somerville32> And they'll help us out where we can
<somerville32> *they
<TheSheep> cellofellow: just kidding
<somerville32> :] 
<cellofellow> How much different is xubuntu from a normal xfce? Can we modify some of there docs?
<somerville32> Xfce4 doesn't have much docs
<cellofellow> just a thought
<somerville32> So, any last topics we'd like to bring up or should we move on?
<earobinson> move on I guess
<cellofellow> Let's move to docs while we're on the subject anyways.
<TheSheep> cellofellow: two main differences: no 'compositor' option and removed desktop icons
<kalikiana> cellofellow: different/ gnomish desktop layout
<cellofellow> the xubuntu xfwm isn't a stock xfwm? xubuntu added compositor?
<cellofellow> kalikiana: the layout is just an options thing.
<TheSheep> cellofellow: no, removed
<somerville32> Yeah, lets discuss documentation
<cellofellow> TheSheep: it's still there.
<somerville32> Who is interested in working on that?
<TheSheep> cellofellow: just because you had it enabled earlier
<luzi> i still work on the documentation occacionally, but i don't have much time for it...
<kalikiana> we might discuss later if compositor is an alternative to beryl ;)
<cellofellow> docs are hard. Like, do you write for newbs, intermediate, or advanced users?
<somerville32> Luzi: Are you John Levine?
* cellofellow has a computer too slow for either compositor or beryl.
<TheSheep> cellofellow: you need docs for all those groups
<kalikiana> i fear the 'official' docs for xfce is still too incomplete
<luzi> sommerville32: no, i'm the main author of xubuntu desktop guide (so far)
<cellofellow> TheSheep: the Welcome Centre sounds like a good starting-off point for newbs.
<earobinson> TheSheep, na you should just gear them at beginners that way advanced users can skip over what they dont need
<luzi> and the name is luzi.
<somerville32> Is anyone interested in heading up the Xubuntu documentation efforts? Luzi?
<TheSheep> earobinson: yeah, start simple, more advanced things later
* cellofellow doesn't feel up to it. :(
* somerville32 pokes Luzi.
<luzi> i can not promise that i'll have much time for it, but i do plan to put some worki into xubuntu desktop guide for feisty.
<luzi> s/worki/work/
<cellofellow> what do newbs need most? Basic navagation, what apps do, how to install software?
<earobinson> no g?
<TheSheep> cellofellow: I started collecting some common questions from #xubuntu
<TheSheep> cellofellow: like 'where is the file manager?'
<earobinson> I doubt xubuntut has a large new users base, most users would start with ubuntu the move over I think
<luzi> earobinson,: 'g' stands for global, so we don't need it if its just one instance
* earobinson learns something :)
<somerville32> :] 
<cellofellow> What if more Linux newbs or even computer newbs come over to Xubuntu than we've been having?
<somerville32> Luzi: Are you a member of the doc team?
<luzi> sommerville32: yeah, i guess. i'm a comitter on their SVN repo, and i read the ML.
<somerville32> Luzi: Could you be the editor-in-chief for this release cycle? I don't think anyone else has enough experience to get commit access to their repo yet.
* cellofellow will brb.
<somerville32> I'm sure there is a ton of us interested in helping out but we need someone with experience to lead the effort atleast.
<somerville32> I know I'm interested in doing doc work 
<somerville32> And I already do a lot of work on the wiki
<luzi> sommerville32: i can't promise anything. maybe i'll be around, maybe not.
<somerville32> Anyone else who could be reliable?
<somerville32> *Do you know anyone else who could be reliable?
<luzi> sommerville32, have a look here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam
<luzi> you can just send patches to ubuntu-doc mailing list and those guys will commit if for you.
<somerville32> Alrighty.
<somerville32> Who is interested in helping with the documentation effort?
* somerville32 raises his hand.
* cellofellow Calls for the Orders of the Day. :)
<somerville32> lol
<somerville32> Ok, looks like it's going to be lonely on the doc team
<somerville32> Do you want to talk about Open Week coming up?
<cellofellow> What's Open Week?
<somerville32> http://fridge.ubuntu.com/node/651
<somerville32> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
<somerville32> Should we make a presentation or something?
<earobinson> It would be nice to see one
<vinze> Hey
<vinze> Meeting still going?
<somerville32> Hey Vinze
<somerville32> Yup.
<earobinson> but then do we have enough to talk about
<somerville32> We're discussing Open Week
<vinze> Great
<somerville32> I guess it all depends if we have a volunteer or not to tlak
<somerville32> haha
<cellofellow> What's the point of Open Week? I think we do need some presence.
<kalikiana> so like somone speaking about xubuntu or what?
* somerville32 nods.
<vinze> A news item on the website perhaps? So people can at least take advantage even of non-Xubuntu specific topics
<kalikiana> should be some pro then ;)
<cellofellow> It's all in IRC channels?
<earobinson> but how much could be said?
* somerville32 nods at Kalikiana.
<somerville32> They only have to talk for an hour
<somerville32> And we've been talking about almost 2 now
<vinze> Perhaps someone that has experience converting gnome-lib apps to normal gtk apps?
<kalikiana> so would it be like this: 'hey, what has xubuntu for media?' - 'gxine it has.'
<somerville32> It would talk about how to get involved with Xubuntu and what Xubuntu is
<kalikiana> or like explaining what apps instead of gnome-apps
<somerville32> And they'd most also likely field questions
<cellofellow> sounds like a job for cody somerville to me.
<vinze> No I meant what Jani did so ubuntu-system-tools or whatsitcalled
<somerville32> Vinze: That doesn't really fit in with Open Week though
<vinze> They can always ask for replacement programs in xubuntu-devel
<somerville32> Cellofellow: haha, Why do you say that? :P
<vinze> Doesn't it?
<cellofellow> you seem pretty good at getting people involved.
<vinze> Yeah I agree
<vinze> But why wouldn't teaching people to make an app gnome-independant fit in?
<somerville32> Vinze: 1. It would take more then a hour
<vinze> Well I know nothing about it so I couldn't guess :P
<somerville32> 2. It is more for teaching newbies how to get involved for the first time
<vinze> Maintaining an Ubuntu Package?
<vinze> That's also an item
* somerville32 nods.
<somerville32> That can be covered within an Hour
<somerville32> And besides, not all gnome-dependent apps are coded in a single language
<somerville32> It could get messy
<vinze> Yeah but 2. is no real reason :P
<vinze> Ah that's true
<vinze> Ah well...
<TheSheep> what about the packaging party?
<vinze> They're not Xubuntu-specific
<vinze> So you can just follow the Ubuntu ones I guess
* somerville32 nods.
<somerville32> Maybe just do what the sister projects are doing... a brief "intro" and how to get involved session
<vinze> Btw, what topics have we dealt with up till now?
<somerville32> We've done website, artwork, community, and documentation
* TheSheep falls asleep
<vinze> Ah, so I only missed documentation
<somerville32> hehe, yeah
* vinze slaps TheSheep 
<somerville32> Ok, so you think I should do something?
* somerville32 feels a bit nervous.
<TheSheep> when do we eat?
<earobinson> it would be great if you could fell the hour
<vinze> If you want to it'd be great
<earobinson> + im sure some of us would come and support you
<somerville32> Woot! :] 
<somerville32> So, lets pick a time slot and stick it in
<vinze> Right..
<somerville32> Schedule is at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
<vinze> Stick it in where it fits you
<earobinson> 18.00 right after ask mark?
<vinze> Can you? Are you allowed to stick it in where you want?
<somerville32> I think so
<somerville32> But I think that would be a tough act to follow
<somerville32> And what if mark stays to watch?
* somerville32 quivers.
<vinze> Hehe, you can build a reputation :P
<earobinson> Im sure thats why no one has taken it
<somerville32> How about Wednesday at 2100?
<vinze> Be brave and take it ;)
<somerville32> haha
* TheSheep cheers somerville32 
<vinze> You're the one to decide
* vinze cheers somerville32 
* somerville32 quivers.
* vinze cheers somerville32 again
<TheSheep> take-it take-it
<somerville32> Ok, so that would be 2pm my time
* somerville32 ponders.
<vinze> take-iit take-it
<TheSheep> somerville32: look, what's the worst thing that can happen?
<somerville32> True. I could always change my name if I screw up, haha
<vinze> You won't stutter
<vinze> Lol
<vinze> So, when will it be?
<somerville32> Wednesday night would most likely be the best for me, TBH
<somerville32> haha
<vinze> There is no info on how to host your own
<vinze> Do you know someone you could contact? Or should you just fit it it?
<somerville32> I could e-mail Jono
<somerville32> Anyhows, lets move on.
<vinze> Agreed
<somerville32> I'll let you all know at the end of the meeting so you can all be there <g>
<vinze> Right
<vinze> Next topic Menu Editor?
<vinze> Or the roadmap, but I think Jani should be there
<somerville32> Jani won't be here today
<Czubek> Cya all.
<vinze> Bye
<vinze> So.. Next topic is?
<somerville32> Feisty Fawn?
<earobinson> FEISTY FAWN?
<earobinson> lol
<vinze> ???
<somerville32> FEISTY FAWN!! :D
<vinze> ???
<earobinson> XUBUNTU FEISTY DEV-ROAD MAP
<somerville32> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings/Archive/Agenda/2006-11-25#head-b3906fa39e6558abbf434f7340757371444f67d4
<TheSheep> feisty frown
<somerville32> "What emerging desktop technology can the Xubuntu distribution adopt?"
<vinze> So how are we going to decide what to do when Jani isn't there?
<vinze> Beryl-Beryl-Beryl!
<somerville32> haha
<TheSheep> somerville32: what is 'emerging desktop technology'?
<vinze> Beryl-Beryl-Beryl!
<TheSheep> somerville32: electronic pencil sharpeners?
<somerville32> TheSheep: You'll have to "Ask Mark" at the "Ask Mark" meeting, haha :P
<vinze> Beryl-Beryl-Beryl!
<kalikiana> what about the search tool
<vinze> Yeah that really is missing
<somerville32> Well, work is already occuring on the search tool
<TheSheep> yeah, that's desktop technology
<vinze> Is it?
<somerville32> Ubuntu is going to implement tracker
<somerville32> And so we just need to make an applet or something for it
<cellofellow> Dekstop search is cool.
<TheSheep> I began to make a gtk front-end to tracker
<earobinson> keep it as simple as possible I don't see the need to adopt anything, or at least make it an option duing install
<vinze> So what exactly is tracker?
<TheSheep> vinze: http://www.gnome.org/~jamiemcc/tracker/
<kalikiana> tracker is a demon for sql-based fullsearch in filesystems
<TheSheep> vinze: file indexer
<kalikiana> and TheSheap already made a nice python GUI
<vinze> Ah great
* kalikiana curses his keyboard
<vinze> I'm learning Python right now :P
* somerville32 nods.
<somerville32> What about telepathy?
<somerville32> I'm not using Edgy
<somerville32> Is telepathy used in the Xubuntu desktop?
* TheSheep forgot to read about what's telepathy
<vinze> Telepathy?
<kalikiana> meta tracker is freedesktop compliant :)
<somerville32> Telepathy is like a communication framework or something or another
<vinze> Never heard of it
<somerville32> http://telepathy.freedesktop.org/wiki/
<TheSheep> somerville32: but xubuntu is 90% a one-user-at-a-time  install
<vinze> Not for me
<vinze> Btw, Tracker looks cool
<kalikiana> and it is fast
<vinze> But about telepathy: what exactly is its use?
<kalikiana> and there are cli tools ;)
<somerville32> I think that maybe we should defer Feisty Fawn and Dev-Roadmap until we have a more developer-enabled meeting. What do you guys think?
<TheSheep> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Teams/IM/DesktopIntegrationSIPIM?action=show&redirect=MOTUIM%2FDesktopIntegrationSIPIM
* vinze agrees
<TheSheep> somerville32: yup
<TheSheep> share presence and address book information between any application that deals with people
<earobinson> I like that one TheSheep 
<somerville32> What about the desktop menu?
<earobinson> huh?
<vinze> Well, if I knew how to edit it by manually perhaps I could try and make a Python app but I don't know how long that'll take...
<TheSheep> right, I'd like to have a second 'Places' menu
<somerville32> IS the current menu freedesktop.org compliant?
<TheSheep> somerville32: yes
<somerville32> Why isn't it the same as Gnome and KDE then?
<TheSheep> somerville32: it doesn't implement the full spec
<kalikiana> TheSheep: what exactly do you want?
<kalikiana> TheShepp: what is missing do you think?
<vinze> It's partly compliant
<TheSheep> kalikiana: a menu with 'home, filesystem, trash, media, etc.'
<vinze> What's the etc.?
<TheSheep> kalikiana: all links to Thunar with different parameters
<TheSheep> vinze: et cetera
<somerville32> Like Ubuntu's setup
<vinze> Yeah but what does it stand for?
<somerville32> I agree as well
<kalikiana> TheSheep: oh, like once we had that in the panel :)
<somerville32> We could have Applications, Places, and System
<vinze> If we have a menu with only four items...
<kalikiana> so should we have places in the panel? or in the main menu?
<somerville32> In the panel
<somerville32> Like three different menus
<TheSheep> somerville32: that's a hard one, afaik xfce can have only one automatically-generated menu
<vinze> Would it be possible to have the System menu only show up for people with administrator rights?
<kalikiana> i like browser, terminal and fileman in the panel
<TheSheep> somerville32: but the 'places' menu doesn't need to be autogenerated
<vinze> Perhaps not Terminal kalikiana 
* somerville32 nods.
* kalikiana kalikiana looks sad - kalikiana likes his terminal
<vinze> Yeah but not everybody accesses it frequently, especially not new Linux users
<vinze> You can add it yourself, can't you?
<kalikiana> isn't it essential for anybody to use a terminal sometime?
<vinze> My panel is full of icons
<TheSheep> vinze: but they should ;)
<cellofellow> Mine's full of icons and little menus. :)
<vinze> Then Xubuntu would have a huge learning curve
<somerville32> I think we should just conform to what Applications have
<kalikiana> if there is no terminal, what about 'type apt-get...' for support?
<somerville32> Err..
<somerville32> To what Ubuntu has
<vinze> Use Synaptic
<kalikiana> but often you can't help with GUI only
<vinze> If they say "type sudo apt-get..." they also say "Open a Terminal Window"
<TheSheep> btw, the link to terminal is in the menu, under 'system'
<vinze> Yeah where it should be
<vinze> Not by default in the panel
<TheSheep> and Thunar has 'open terminal here' in the context menu
<somerville32> Maybe we could draw up a specification?
<kalikiana> oh, there is a link in system *g*
<somerville32> I'd like to setup default shortcuts too
<somerville32> In Thunar
<vinze> But what about the System menu only showing up for users with administrator rights?
<vinze> Yeah me too
<vinze> Ehh, Templates I mean
<somerville32> That too
<somerville32> For System, I think everyone should see it
<somerville32> And shutdown and what should be in there
<vinze> Why?
<vinze> Shutdown shouldn't be in there
<somerville32> It is in Ubuntu
<vinze> Only things that only adminstrators can do
<somerville32> Only things Administrators can do should be under "Administration"
<somerville32> Which could be under System
<vinze> Oh, then I mean that one
* somerville32 nods.
<vinze> Can "Administration" be hidden for non-administrators?
<somerville32> I'm sure we could figure out something
<vinze> That'd be great
<cellofellow> Makes no diff. You still need sudo rights to use those.
<vinze> I think it's especially confusing when users are asked to enter a password and the only password they know is wrong
<cellofellow> true
<vinze> They can't do things there anyway, so...
<somerville32> I think we should have a "run as" tool instead of sudo
<vinze> A "run as" tool?
<somerville32> What I mean, being able to select the user too
<vinze> Oh, yeah
<earobinson> like windows?
<somerville32> Yup.
<vinze> Does windows have that?
<kalikiana> would noobs use that?
<vinze> Yeah
<kalikiana> vinze: win2k has, i believe
<TheSheep> somerville32: what's that for? I mean, only root can switch users anyways
<vinze> E.g. for Thunar
<somerville32> It would be especially useful for xscreensaver lock
<TheSheep> a link with 'open another gdm session' would be good
<vinze> If someone quickly needs to save their files to their USB stick but someone else is at the computer they don't have to go back to the login window
<TheSheep> it is there in gnome
<luzi> I have got to go. Byebye...
<vinze> Oh I set it up too
<vinze> Bye
<cellofellow> Yeah, there's no way to open a new login without first locking the screen,
<TheSheep> it should be there by defualt
<vinze> I agree
<somerville32> I think someone with admin access should be able to unlock a user's screen or atleast force it to log out without having to start a new gdm session
<TheSheep> probably also on a keyboard shortcut
* somerville32 waves at luzi.
<somerville32> Ok, so we're going to write a spec that includes some customization to xubuntu default settings?
<cellofellow> There is a button in kubuntu and ubuntu to open a new login session, nothing like that Xubuntu.
<vinze> Yeah we should
<earobinson> would be usefull
<TheSheep> cellofellow: you can do it with a simple launcher
<vinze> Anyway, on to another point?
<cellofellow> What't the command then?
<kalikiana> where would it open a new session?
<vinze> It would go back to gdm
<vinze> I'm not on my home computer so I can't look up the command now
<kalikiana> oh, and the last one is still open?
<vinze> Something with gdmflexiserver
<vinze> Yeah
<kalikiana> cool
<vinze> Perhaps just gdmflexiserver will do
<cellofellow> What't the command then?
<vinze> Perhaps just gdmflexiserver will do
<kalikiana> so put that in the wiki, i'm persuaded ;)
<vinze> Btw, where can I find the logs, I got to go in a mintue...
<somerville32> It'll be on the wiki
<earobinson> me 2
<somerville32> Last topic
<vinze> OK, great
<vinze> Which is...?
<somerville32> Future meetings
<vinze> Right
<somerville32> Should we have regular dev meetings?
<vinze> Emm.. How often?
<somerville32> Every 3 weeks have a dev meeting?
<somerville32> And teams can schedule whenever they want?
<vinze> I think not too often, 3 weeks are fine IMHO
<vinze> Yeah
<somerville32> Maybe every 2 weeks even?
<vinze> Perhaps 2 weeks is too often
<earobinson> ya 3 sounds good
<vinze> But I'm not sure, we could also just try it
<vinze> Keep it on 3 for now, move to 2 if it's too little?
<somerville32> The TechBoard meets every 2 weeks
<vinze> OK then, perhaps the other way around?
<somerville32> Whats the other way around?
<earobinson> 2 for now move it to 3 if its to much
<vinze> So once every 2 weeks and if it's too often move it to 3
<vinze> Let's do that then, now decide on when
<vinze> Weekends would be best for me
<vinze> Normally I'm not at the computer in the evenings, in weekends they can be during daytime
<TheSheep> lots of people travel at weekends
<vinze> Oh crap...
<somerville32> Jani wants weekday meetings
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 28 Nov 16:00 UTC: LoCo Team | 29 Nov 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu
<vinze> That's what you get with different ages :P
<cellofellow> nothing's ever good for everyone.
<vinze> So when will we do it?
<earobinson> alter it
<cellofellow> Does that meen the meetings over? ^^^^
<somerville32> Wednesday nights
<vinze> Almost :P
<vinze> Then I can't ever be there, but ah well...
<earobinson> why not have every odd meeting on weekends and even during the weekday
<earobinson> well i gtg
<vinze> Hmm.. .That'd be an option
<vinze> Bye
<somerville32> Wednesday nights 2400 UTC?
<vinze> 2400!?! Don't you have a life? :P
<kalikiana> aren't still topics missing?
* cellofellow was late cause he thought GMT and UTC were different.
<somerville32> 2400 UTC is 8pm for me
<somerville32> 2300 UTC?
<somerville32> 2200 UTC?
<vinze> And 0100 for me :P
<vinze> Anyway, I can't be there at wednesdays, I think all people that can should vote on the time
<cellofellow> I never know. I'll come to the ones I can.
<vinze> So about about earobinson's proposal?
* cellofellow waves
<somerville32> Alrighty.
* somerville32 declares the meeting over.
<vinze> Who does the logs?
<somerville32> I'll upload the log
<vinze> OK
<somerville32> :)
* somerville32 waves.
* vinze waves
* kalikiana waves
<somerville32> I'll also do a summary on the ml
<vinze> OK, perhaps also put that on the wiki?
<somerville32> Yup :] 
<vinze> Great
<vinze> It is also worth a news item at the site?
<somerville32> I don't think so
<somerville32> But the Open Week event is
<somerville32> :] 
<vinze> Right... What exactly should be in it?
<vinze> Oh I got to go
<vinze> Bye
* vinze waves
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-11-26
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-meeting.log
* #ubuntu-meeting  [freenode-info]  channel flooding and no channel staff around to help? please check with freenode support: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#gettinghelp
* mode/#ubuntu-meeting [+o Seveas]  by ChanServ
* mode/#ubuntu-meeting [+cz]  by Seveas
* mode/#ubuntu-meeting [-o Seveas]  by ChanServ
<juliux> @schedule
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 28 Nov 16:00: LoCo Team | 29 Nov 12:00: Edubuntu
<mruiz> @schedule Santiago
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Santiago: 28 Nov 13:00: LoCo Team | 29 Nov 09:00: Edubuntu
<stgraber> @schedule Zurich
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Zurich: 28 Nov 17:00: LoCo Team | 29 Nov 13:00: Edubuntu
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-11-19
<kraut> moin
<zul_> @schedule montreal
<ubotu> Schedule for America/Montreal: 22 Nov 09:00: Desktop Team Development | 23 Nov 07:00: MOTU meeting | 29 Nov 09:00: Desktop Team Development
<zul> .wub 11'
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-11-20
<MacSlow> Greetings everybody!
<zul> @schedule montreal
<ubotu> Schedule for America/Montreal: 22 Nov 09:00: Desktop Team Development | 23 Nov 07:00: MOTU meeting | 29 Nov 09:00: Desktop Team Development
<soren> @now
<ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: November 20 2007, 14:48:05 - Next meeting: Desktop Team Development in 1 day
<soren> Figures.
<akincer> Meeting in 1 day?
<soren> No, in 5 minutes.
<soren> Server meeting.
<akincer> Right, not sure I'll participate much, but I wanted to be here
<akincer> Oh, Desktop Team Development. Should have read the words before the 1 day part
<zul> morning
<akincer> morning
<soren> No, it's not.
<akincer> It's all relative
<zul> soren: yes it is...
<mathiaz> Hi everyone !
<soren> Um.. I'm quite sure I can tell when it's morning and when it isn't... And it really isn't right now.
<soren> Hi, mathiaz!
<ivoks> hi all
<zul> soren: im sure you can, but let me assure you it is morning
<jdstrand> hi ivoks
<zul> hey mathiaz
<akincer> It's 5 oclock somewhere
<soren> Yes. In the afternoon.
 * soren shakes his head
<akincer> and it is also 5AM somewhere
<ivoks> guys, every second somewhere is midnight, so...
<zul> its all black and white to me
<mathiaz> alright let's get the ubuntu server team meeting started
<mathiaz> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 15:00. The chair is mathiaz.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<pschulz01> mathiaz: +1
<mathiaz> So I'd like to appoligize for the last meeting not being run.
<mathiaz> some of the team members were not available to attend it.
<mathiaz> it's been a long month since the last one.
<mathiaz> I think it was before UDS.
<ivoks> then we have lots of things to talk about
 * dholbach hugs the server folks :)
<mathiaz> I hope so
 * soren hugs dholbach
 * ivoks turns to the dark side and hugs dholbach too :)
<dantalizing> get a channel
<mathiaz> the agenda for today is here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
<soren> dantalizing: :)
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Review ACTION points from previous meeting.
<MootBot> New Topic:  Review ACTION points from previous meeting.
<mathiaz> last meeting notes can be found here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/Server/20071023
<dholbach> more hugs for those of you who do reviews marked as 'canonical-server' on http://people.ubuntu.com/~dholbach/sponsoring/
 * dholbach is quiet now
<mathiaz> zul: did you start a wiki page about your plan for xen ?
<zul> mathiaz: yes i havent updated it since Ive started it
<soren> zul: What's the name of it?
<zul> its a launchpad spec
<zul> gimme a sec..
<zul> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/XenInHardy
 * pschulz01 greets sommer
<mathiaz> zul: did you register a spec in LP ?
<zul> thats the gist of it
<zul> mathiaz: yep
<sommer> hey, all
<ivoks> zul: those xen releases patches for newer version of kernels?
<ivoks> s/those/does
<mathiaz> zul: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/xen-hardy gives me an error
<zul> argh...ill fix it after the meeting
<zul> ivoks: correct.
<mathiaz> zul: ok - great !
<dendrobates> mathiaz: have we started?
<mathiaz> dendrobates: yes
<soren> dendrobates: Yes :)
<dendrobates> topic?
<mathiaz> dendrobates: review last meeting points.
<mathiaz> dendrobates: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/Server/20071023
<mathiaz> I haven't sent an email about tagging bugs for documentation to the ubuntu-doc team.
<soren> I had an action point, too.
<soren> I sent the e-mail to debian-devel about the default MTA stuff.
<mathiaz> soren: ah says. So did you send your email ?
<mathiaz> soren: what was the response ?
<soren> Despite my efforts to emphasize the process and work included, no-one responded to that bit, and everyone started talking about if exim or postfix should be the default one.
<soren> ...so the discussion has gotten nowhere at all :(
<mathiaz> soren: has the thread finished ?
<soren> Wel... it's dead.
<soren> I can't find it in the ml archive right now. :/
<mathiaz> soren: may be you could send another email explaining that the default choice of the mta is a hot topic and that what you propose is a technical improvement to give choice the end user
<mathiaz> soren: give choice to the end user or developer
<soren> I thought about that, but I can already imagine the response. :)
<soren> I'll try.
<mathiaz> ACTION: soren will try to come up with a new email for debian-devel about the default MTA change.
<soren> "but we can't do this before we've all agreed which mta should be our default".. and then the same discussion will start again.
<soren> But I'm not bitter.
<mathiaz> [ACTION] soren will try to come up with a new email for debian-devel about the default MTA change.
<MootBot> ACTION received:  soren will try to come up with a new email for debian-devel about the default MTA change.
<soren> Moving right along..
<ivoks> soren: may the force be with you...
<dendrobates> I thought we agreed on postfix in a previous meeting.
<soren> dendrobates: *we* did. Debian didn't.
<soren> dendrobates: ...and we'd really like to have Debian agree on the same technical way to do this, so that we don't go in different directions.
<dendrobates> perhaps slangasek can help point us to the correct people to get on board before we make another post to the ml.
<mathiaz> any other toughts about the last meeting ?
<soren> dendrobates: Yeah, I could try talking to him.
<soren> mathiaz: no
<dendrobates> no
<mathiaz> ok. Let's move on then.
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] JeOS support/documentation for gutsy, plans for hardy
<MootBot> New Topic:  JeOS support/documentation for gutsy, plans for hardy
<dendrobates> nealmcb added te next topic.
<dendrobates> He does not seem to be with us.
<soren> Maybe we can move to the next topic and return to this one if he shows up?
<dendrobates> I would like to table this discussion until he can join us.
<soren> snap
<mathiaz> ok. Let's defer this discussion then.
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] sudo bug discussion - dendrobates
<MootBot> New Topic:  sudo bug discussion - dendrobates
<dendrobates> There have been sporadic reports of the user added at install time not being in the admin group.
<dendrobates> this causes sudo not to work for that user.
<ivoks> dendrobates: any examples?
<soren> dendrobates: Actually, one of the reports mentioned that it was the %admin ALL=(ALL) ALL   line that was missing from sudoers..
<pschulz01> dendrobates: URL?
<soren> http://www.enterprisenetworkingplanet.com/netos/article.php/3712031
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://www.enterprisenetworkingplanet.com/netos/article.php/3712031
<mathiaz> dendrobates: is there a bug in LP ?
<jdstrand> didn't I hear someone say it happened only when installing the mail-server task?
<dendrobates> The reports have all been a little different, and I cannot reproduce it.
<jdstrand> (I cannot remember where I heard/read that)
<mathiaz> I've also heard about some thread in the forums
<dendrobates> jdstrand: yes, that was one report, but it was not reproducable.
<ivoks> m... this article... i've read it
<ivoks> we really shouldn't base assumptions on it
<dendrobates> I don't put too much stock in that particulat report.
<dendrobates> but it has popped up too pften to be a coincidence IMO
<soren> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=590290
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=590290
<dendrobates> I would like everyone to try at least once this week to reproduce this.  I have done 20+ installs with no luck.
<jdstrand> dendrobates: I am curious if all of this has been in Vms?
<jdstrand> VMs
<mathiaz> dendrobates: may be we could try to centralize all the links that describe such a problem ?
<dendrobates> mathiaz: good idea.
<ivoks> jdstrand: or maybe even with wubi or someting like that...
<sommer> is there a bug we can leave comments on?
<dendrobates> jdstrand: I have tried to reproduce it in VM and real HW.
<mathiaz> dendrobates: is there a bug in LP about this ?
<akincer> I did a server install yesterday and did not run into this issue. Had a separate issue, but it isn't part of this discusion
<dendrobates> mathiaz: not yet.
<mathiaz> ok. So I'll file a bug about this and assign to the server team then.
<mathiaz> [ACTION] mathiaz will file a bug for the sudo bug to track all the links mentioning it.
<MootBot> ACTION received:  mathiaz will file a bug for the sudo bug to track all the links mentioning it.
<dendrobates> we can keep track of the various reports on the lp bug report.
<dendrobates> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/user-setup/+bug/40684  perhaps they are using expert mode.
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 40684 in user-setup "expert install user not a sudoer if root password given" [Medium,Confirmed]
<ivoks> ah... expert mode
<soren> Yeah, I just stumbled upon that.
<soren> That is clearly intentional, though.
<soren> The code very clearly checks if a root password has been set, and if so, no sudo-capable user is added.
<dendrobates> quite old though.  Should be looked at though. I did not try an expert install.
<soren> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/sudo/+bug/162638
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 162638 in sudo "sudo - first user not in sudoers file" [Undecided,New]
<zul> dendrobates: ill be trying a server install after the meeting so I can try to reproduce it
<dendrobates> in the reported cases, no root password was set, allegedly
<ivoks> i'll try expert install today
<mathiaz> soren: it seems that this is a bug where we should track the links.
<jdstrand> dendrobates: I haven't looked at that passwrod checking code.  maybe it is as simple as a 'blank' password (eg, a space or tab or something)
<dendrobates> jdstrand: it shouldn't be possible to inadvertantly do that from the installer
<jdstrand> dendrobates: we should ask for /etc/shadow entry for root
<jdstrand> or at least whether it has a password in it
<dendrobates> anyway, I just wanted everyone to be aware.
<jdstrand> (as opposed to '*' or '!'
<mathiaz> I've just subscribed ubuntu-server to bug 162638
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 162638 in sudo "sudo - first user not in sudoers file" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/162638
<dendrobates> mathiaz: thanks.
<mathiaz> I think it should be used to track all the information we found about this issue.
<dendrobates> agreed
<mathiaz> dendrobates: anything else about this issue ?
<dendrobates> no
<mathiaz> let's move on to the next topic then
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Hardy community projects - dendrobates
<MootBot> New Topic:  Hardy community projects - dendrobates
<dendrobates> we would like a volunteer to pick up a project for hardy.
<dendrobates> We would like to add a ruby on rails stack.
<dendrobates> This would consist of adding the necessary packages to main ,and creating a tasksel task
<ivoks> anyone knows anything about ruby?
<dendrobates> this is perfect for someone going for core-dev.
<zul> not me
<coffeedude> nope.
<dendrobates> or someone that wants to learn ruby.
<sommer> I've done some script type programming with Ruby... cool language
<dendrobates> or someone that knows ruby
<nealmcb> ahh - daylight savings - damn
<dendrobates> When everyone volunteers at once, I can't hear you.
<ivoks> well
<ivoks> i could do everything needed on apache side
<sommer> I'm not haven't really done much packaging, but can probably help
<ivoks> but i really don't know anything about gems and other ruby stuff
<mathiaz> there was another ruby spec registered in LP.
<sommer> s/I haven't/
<dantalizing> I would be willing to help but would need some direction
<mathiaz> I can contact the person that registered the spec to see if he is interested in doing it.
<dantalizing> a lot of direction
<akincer> Pardon me, but it seems the question worth asking is "Does anyone here who knows anything about Ruby on Rails want to volunteer to head up a RoR project for Gutsy?"
<mathiaz> akincer: s/gutsy/hardy/
<akincer> doh
<akincer> No coffee today, what do you expect?
 * coffeedude thought that was an implicit question anyways....
<mathiaz> well - the first thing is to figure out what is the current state of ror in ubuntu.
<sommer> is there a link to the spec?
<nealmcb> [sorry to get my clocks messed up and miss so much of the meeting.  can someone shoot me a transcript somehow of the meeting so far?]
<mathiaz> sommer: https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/rubyonrails
<jdstrand> nealmcb: the JeOS stuff was postponed til you got here
<nealmcb> :-)
<sommer> mathiaz: thx
<mathiaz> the actual wiki page is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RubyOnRailsStack
<lionel> mathiaz: all is free, nothing has been chossen like mongrel versus fast-cgi or something like that. This topic was discused at UDS?
<mathiaz> lionel: a little bit - but there wasn't enough knowledge around the table.
<dendrobates> this is actually a different spec.  But we can use it.  I assigned jdstrand to create the spec, but since this exists, we can use it.
<dendrobates> Does anyone know who David Portwood is?
<lionel> due to some nightmare in the past for me to install the RoR stack, I'm fine with helping on this topic :)
<jdstrand> yea
<mathiaz> lionel: well you could help with drafting the spec then.
<mathiaz> lionel: which is just about figure out what's wrong with the current way of installing ror.
<lionel> I'll try to contact David first.
<soren> someone's at the door.. brb.
<lionel> mathiaz: more or less : nothing is packaged and all is fech with ruby packaging system :-(
<mathiaz> lionel: david == dzportwood ?
<lionel> but I agreee that's something that's necessary
<dendrobates> We need the spec completed by thursday, which is not alot of time.
<lionel> mathiaz: yes. to know if he want to help us to implement :)
<lionel> dendrobates: well, there is nothing at tv tonight ;)
<mathiaz> lionel: ok. So could you try to contact him ?
<dendrobates> lionel: Ha, thanks.
<lionel> yes, when the meeting is finished I send him a mail and I will digg in the spec
<mathiaz> lionel: and since we may be short on time, could also add your thoughts to a discussion section on the wiki page ?
<lionel> I have not a lot of experience with specs, I may require a bit help from you
<lionel> mathiaz: sure, no problem
<mathiaz> lionel: don't worry. I can be the approver of the spec.
<mathiaz> [ACTION] lionel will contact david to write the ruby-on-rails spec.
<MootBot> ACTION received:  lionel will contact david to write the ruby-on-rails spec.
<dendrobates> ok, that is an action item, lionel will work on the spec, and sommer, ivoks, and dantalizing will all help with the implementation.
 * soren is back
<dendrobates> we should go back to JEOS now that nealmcb is here.
<mathiaz> dendrobates: let's get the spec drafted and approved first.
<mathiaz> ok. Let's get back to JEOS then.
<dendrobates> true, but I want to capture who volunteered, so we don't have to ask again.
<nealmcb> dendrobates: thanks
<mathiaz>  [TOPIC] JeOS support/documentation for gutsy, plans for hardy
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] JeOS support/documentation for gutsy, plans for hardy
<MootBot> New Topic:  JeOS support/documentation for gutsy, plans for hardy
<nealmcb> did folks read my email on the topic?
<nealmcb> any comments on that?  should I go thru it?  someone else want to lead this item?
<soren> It would be wonderful if you could lead it.
<mathiaz> nealmcb: I've read your email.
<nealmcb> I think documentation is a big part - lots of folks confused about what is out there
<nealmcb> ...for gutsy.  pretty easy to fix with a wiki page at help.ubuntu.com - right?
<soren> Heck, *I*'m confused sometimes!
<mathiaz> nealmcb: yes. Your proposal to create https://help.ubuntu.com/community/JeOS makes sense.
<dendrobates> nealmcb: the question becomes what do we say about Jeos
<nealmcb> a big question in my mind is whether we should somehow get the ubuntu-jeos-builder out there for gutsy somehow
<soren> nealmcb: I plan on renaming that, by the way.
<nealmcb> since it is so much nicer than the iso
<soren> ...to remove a big part of the confusion in my head.
<soren> To ubuntu-vm-builder or something.
<nealmcb> dendrobates: what are the options?
<nealmcb> ..for what we say...
<soren> ...and when I'm done looking at virt-install I'll figure out if I'll roll them into one, or upload both of them. It'll only be a few days.
<dendrobates> technically, I'm not sure we have much of a story at this point.
<nealmcb> soren: right
<nealmcb> I was also looking at rbuilder rpath.com last night - some very cool stuff there...
<mathiaz> fwiw it can be used to quickly create virtual machines with specific packages installed.
<nealmcb> dendrobates: my sense is that the momentum is now, and if we don't at least get the community involved in helping make jeos work well on ubuntu, they'll go elsewhere
<mathiaz> ex: I want an ldap server using hardy.
<dendrobates> nealmcb: ok.  agreed
<nealmcb> so a mailing list makes lots of sense, and more transparency from the folks working on it
<nealmcb> there is a perception that canonical somehow is trying to make this a proprietary thing, which makes no sense to me
<mathiaz> nealmcb: more transparency means having a roadmap
 * soren has just reproduced the no-user-in-sudoers bug.
<soren> er... no.
<soren> never mind :)
 * pschulz01 smiles at soren.
 * nijaba guesses that he forgot to update his meeting time after DST change
<nealmcb> nijaba: you and me too....
<akincer> OT, but DST needs to die
<nealmcb> nijaba: the topic is jeos now
<mathiaz> nealmcb: do you think a team is needed ?
<zul> well how far along is jeos?
<nealmcb> mathiaz: you mean launchpad team?
<nealmcb> probably
<mathiaz> nealmcb: well - not necessarly an LP team.
<nealmcb> but also mailing list for users and developers.  I hate talking about this on the forums....
<mathiaz> nealmcb: if you want to have users joining the project, a team in the wiki makes more sense.
<nealmcb> who wants to work on it?
<dendrobates> zul: it exists, but there is no interesting technology, except the scritp that builds it.
<soren> dendrobates: Well.. no.
<soren> dendrobates: The script that builds the JeOS iso not exceptionally non-interesting.
<soren> er.. s/not/is/
<pookey> hm, I'm an hour late :)
<nealmcb> soren: I disagree!
<dendrobates> soren: at least it is technology.
<soren> The ubuntu-jeos-builder (which is sort of unrelated to JeOS, actually) is rather interesting, though.
<nijaba> soren:  exceptionally non-uninteresting.
<nealmcb> ahh - right
<dendrobates> isn't that what I said?
<nealmcb> though i'd like to see how the jeos iso is built.....
<mathiaz> I think that the script to build iso is interesting.
 * nealmcb nods
<mathiaz> It can be used as a base to build virtual appliances.
<nealmcb> but why an iso?  why not a vm?
 * nijaba nods as nealmcb
<akincer> And I, for one, would like a plethora of documentation on how to use that
<soren> mathiaz: It's no different from any other cd building script, really.
<mathiaz> to me it's just another output.
<mathiaz> some user want to create an iso, others want to create a vm.
<nealmcb> are any doc folks here?
<nijaba> Iwas asked to write an article on how to build an appliance based on JeOS
<nijaba> So I guess that will be a start for a doc
 * sommer waves at nealmcb
<nealmcb> :-)
<soren> mathiaz: If the vm builder should be part of this, we need a new name for it. A generic vm builder script does not match "Just enough OS" in any sane way, IMO.
<soren> mathiaz: I see the relation of the two things, though.
<pschulz01> nijaba: I would be happy to review the article.
<dendrobates> We could automate appliance building ala vmware vadk.
<zul> I agree a vm would be more useful than an iso
<nealmcb> soren: though jeos is a catchy name now.  but I see your point
<mathiaz> nijaba: would you mind writing a wiki page for your articile ?
<nijaba> mathiaz: not at all
<nijaba> soren: I will need some help from you to get started.
<mathiaz> so what about starting a document on help.u.c ?
<zul> for example most ISP would use a base VM rather than an ISO to install images for clients
<akincer> Not everyone would find a vm more useful than an iso. Despite that being the trend, I can think of many uses of an iso as an appliance install
<nijaba> mathiaz: perfect
<soren> nijaba: Sure.
<mathiaz> nijaba: do you already have a skeleton in mind ?
<zul> or have a switch that either builds an iso or a vm
<nealmcb> having easy tips on how to dpkg-reconfigure after the vm comes up (or before?) would help
<nealmcb> akincer: what use case are you thinking of ?
<nijaba> mathiaz: for a_z step by step install install of a given web app (which I have not picked)
<mathiaz> it seems that we also need a way to capture all the other ideas of improvements
<soren> bugs.lp.net/ubuntu-jeos/+new ?
<dendrobates> we are technically out of time.
<akincer> nealmcb: Old machines that would do fine as a simple appliance like a DNS server
<mathiaz> dendrobates: is there another meeting scheduled now ?
<nealmcb> akincer: I though jeos explicitely meant vm in people's minds, and putting lots of hw support for old hardware in there would be a different focus
<nijaba> akincer: the problem is that the JeOS kernel is stripped of most drivers that you will need
<nealmcb> does anyone have to leave now?
<dendrobates> I don't think so, I was just stating the obvious.
<akincer> wouldn't the point of having a builder be to add in things like drivers? Maybe I don't understand enough about JeOS
<mathiaz> soren: is there a spec for jeos in hardy ?
<soren> mathiaz: Well... Depends on what you mean by "jeos".
<soren> See?
<soren> mathiaz: If it's for Ubuntu as a guest os, then yes.
<mathiaz> I'm trying to figure out where we can keep track of the proposed improvements
<soren> Bugs on launchpad?
<mathiaz> soren: ok.
<nealmcb> but a roadmap in a wiki spec would be more helpful for many folks
<soren> https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/jeos-hardy is about Ubuntu as a guest os
<mathiaz> I'll also add a section about it in the ServerTeam Roadmap.
<nijaba>  mathiaz: I think that JeOS is and should stay as Ubuntu as a guest os, but need to increase the number of virtualization environments supported
<soren> There's currently no spec about the vm builder thing.
<akincer> If I'm simply uninformed, ignore my assertion
<mathiaz> akincer: if you're uninformed, we need to fix it.
<soren> akincer: You rarely care much about extra drivers in a vm, do you?
<nijaba> akincer: your point is good, but that would be an appliance builder vs a virtual appliance builder
<nijaba> we certainly could use both
<zul> soren: actually if i had a weird usb key drive then yes I would
<akincer> soren: Right, but I was specifically talking about building an appliance for say an unused machine to be a DNS machine
<soren> zul: How weird?
<mathiaz> akincer: that's out of the scope of JeOS.
<zul> soren: usb thumbscanner or something like that
<soren> akincer: Ah, I thought you still meant in a virtual machine, but on old hardware.
<zul> soren: or a wireless driver that the kernel doesnt support but there are drivers out there that does support it
<akincer> Is there a link to the scope of JeOS?
<mathiaz> akincer: not that know of. That's what we need to fix
<akincer> wait, think I see it
<soren> zul: Wireless driver? In a VM?
<zul> soren: as an exmample
<soren> zul: I fail to see the use of that.
<zul> soren: people have done weirder things
<mathiaz> so to get back on track, what can we do ?
<nealmcb> document what we offer in gutsy
<mathiaz> nijaba will write a short tutorial about using jeos to build a virtual appliances.
<nealmcb> backport some vm builder to gutsy
<nealmcb> build a community around it
<nealmcb> and go for the gold in hardy
<mathiaz> anyone interested in writing a simple wiki page that presents and explain what is JeOS ?
<nealmcb> getting rid of unneeded app-level stuff seems like an important goal to me, and a hard one
<mathiaz> or would this part of nijaba's tutorial ?
<nijaba> mathiaz: will be part of it
<nealmcb> the jeos page should list various related pages, and include our working definition
<nijaba> in fact, I have already started this part internally
<mathiaz> it looks like the bigest problem now is documentation. let's focus on this first.
<nealmcb> I've put various hints on using the jeos builder on that forums page
<nijaba> preparing the eb page for u.c/server/jeos
<nealmcb> and put the ubuntu-jeos-builder in my ppa
<nealmcb> but don't want to go to far without a plan....
<mathiaz> nealmcb: can you copy your hints on h.u.c/community/JeOS ?
<nealmcb> absolutely - though I think they would be in a sub-page
<soren> Ok, let me just get this straigt:
<nealmcb> and picking the vm builder script of choice is a top priority so I look forward to soren's thoughts on virt-install etc
<nealmcb> does virt-install require x11?
<zul> no
<soren> I'm the only one who's annoyed that JeOS refers to two completely separate things? Ie. both Ubuntu as a guest os and the vm builder thingie?
<mralphabet> and third a physical machine os
<nijaba> so let's have JeOS and JeOS-Builder
<mathiaz> soren: nope. There is some confusion.
<nealmcb> a jeos builder can also build simple vms right?
<nealmcb> but a vm builder might not be very savvy about tight jeos images
<soren> mathiaz: Then can we please, please, please not put anything about the vm builder script onto h.u.c/whatever/JeOS/whatever ?
<mathiaz> soren: JeOS is ubuntu as a virtual guest.
<nealmcb> so what is wrong with using the hip jeos term?
<mathiaz> soren: vm builder script is part of the virtualization spec.
<akincer> If they are two entirely different things, I don't think having similar names is conducive to clarity
<soren> mathiaz: Not the virtualisation spec I wrote :)
<soren> mathiaz: I can be, but it isn't.
<nealmcb> I'm just talking about the name of the tool.  ubuntu-jeos-builder now (a bit long)
<nealmcb> jeos-builder would be better perhaps
<soren> vm-builder!
 * nijaba beeps -> trademark
<nealmcb> vm's are so 1990's...
<nealmcb> :-)
<mathiaz> soren: ok. It seems that vm----builder would build on JeOS
<soren> I just hate that every conversation I have about JeOS has to start with: "So, when you say JeOS, do you mean the entirely separate installabal ISO, or do you mean the wicked cool vm builder script, I wrote?"
<zul> i would have said virt-factory
<nealmcb> I'm not firm on that opinion, but I think jeos has mindshare now.  it jeos trademarked?
<soren> nealmcb: Good question.
<dendrobates> nealmcb: I don't know.
 * zul must go to work
<nealmcb> nijaba: you brought up trademarks - in relation to what?
<nijaba> to vm-xxxx
<nealmcb> is vm-xxxx trademarked?
<nijaba> nope, but vm- is very close to vmware
<nealmcb> ah
<nijaba> so I would suggest getting away from it if we want to do stuff outside of vmware
<nealmcb> regardless of what we call it - will we package "jeos-builder" for gutsy somehow?
<soren> I doubt it.
<nealmcb> (other than my ppa :-)
<mathiaz> ok. so it seems that this is still confusing. and we still have some things to talk about.
<soren> Not through any official channels anyway.
<mathiaz> let's get this to the mailing list.
 * pschulz01 says: goodnight all. will ne reading the logs
<mathiaz> I'll reply to your email nealmcb
<nealmcb> but it is so cool - that is where we get traction!
 * nijaba +1 to mathiaz proposal
<nealmcb> 90 seconds to a new vm!
<mathiaz> with a summary of the previous conversation.
<nealmcb> great
<mathiaz> [ACTION] mathiaz will reply to nealmcb mail about jeos.
<MootBot> ACTION received:  mathiaz will reply to nealmcb mail about jeos.
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Review each section of the ServerTeam/Roadmap.
<MootBot> New Topic:  Review each section of the ServerTeam/Roadmap.
<akincer> Gotta go. Goodbye and good luck.
<mathiaz> The Roadmap: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Roadmap
<mathiaz> nealmcb: how is the factoids going ?
 * soren wonders if mathiaz lives in a hexagonal flat
<nealmcb> I have't put any time into them - jeos is too much fun and work is pressing.  but I'll get back to them
<ivoks> mathiaz: what about postfix+dovecot?
<soren> :)
<ivoks> mathiaz: i've tested it and i can't say anything else than 'works as advertised'
<nealmcb> and I'll work on a jeos factoid :-)
 * mathiaz checks that his flat hasn't changed drastically during this meeting
<ivoks> a long one :)
<lamont> ivoks: dovecot should "just work" with the current postfix
 * nijaba states that mathiaz has actually moved out of the hexagon
<soren> mathiaz: I'm just curious where the ".* corner" terminology comes from.
<ivoks> lamont: we were talking about SASL over dovcot in postfix
<mathiaz> soren: that comes from jono
<soren> mathiaz: oic
 * nealmcb finally gets the hexagon joke :-)
<lamont> ivoks: right
<ivoks> lamont: so, we would like to provide that out of the box
<lamont> and it should "just work".  If not, iz bug and should be filed
<ivoks> lamont: it does just work :)
<mathiaz> ivoks: what is the goal of this ?
<ivoks> mathiaz: we talked about that at UDS
<ivoks> mathiaz: replacing saslauthd with dovecot
<mathiaz> ivoks: yes - it's been a while since then.
<mathiaz> ivoks: right.
<mathiaz> ivoks: so what needs to be done ?
<sommer> just to note the docs have been updated to use Dovecot SASL.
<ivoks> mathiaz: we need to add 1 or 2 lines in main.cf
<sommer> for Hardy anyway
<nijaba> mathiaz: also update the mail task ?
<mathiaz> ivoks: you said you've tested it - is there anything that can be done improve it ?
<mathiaz> sommer: great ! thanks.
<sommer> np
<ivoks> mathiaz: yes, we could provide it out of the box?
<mathiaz> ivoks: where should this be done ? in the dovecot postinst script ?
<ivoks> that's the problem i wanted to disccuss
<mathiaz> ivoks: OTOH I'm not sure we can mangle the postfix configuration file
<ivoks> we can't do it in postinst, since that will break debian policy :/
<soren> No.
<lamont> mathiaz: I'd be happy to mangle the config file
<ivoks> we talked about tasksel postinst, and it's the same thing...
<soren> postfix provides postconf to alter its config, so all should be good.
<lamont> ivoks: in dovecot postinst?
<soren> SEction 11.7, IIRC.
<mathiaz> lamont: what would you suggest ?
<lamont> yeah - that just means that we need an interface
<ivoks> soren: that's ok, yes...
<soren> Ah, 10.7.
<soren> 10.7.4 in particular.
<soren> lamont: Interface?
<ivoks> lamont: dovecot postinst could check if postconf exsist and then use it to set up sasl
<soren> Hm... It would be nice if it asked first. :)
<ivoks> yeah...
<soren> A simple yes/no, though.
<lamont> and 10.7.4 says postconf -e will make things right
<mathiaz> soren: OTOH this is one more question
<lamont> note that modifying config files does require that you ask first
<ivoks> that's why i was thinking about new package
<ivoks> ubuntu-mail-server
<ivoks> wich would depend and replace postifx and dovecot
<lamont> ivoks: ew
<soren> mathiaz: ...that's not much of an issue, as it turns out.
<lamont> it shouldn't need to replace
<mathiaz> ivoks: tasksel seems like a good candidate for that
<sommer> I have another meeting... thanks all
<ivoks> replace means 'that's my config too, and i can edit it'
<lamont> mathiaz: it's not a question in base install
<soren> mathiaz: We discussed this earlier (mysql root password stuff).
<lamont> ivoks: if it uses postconf, then it's not editing its config, and it's policy compliant
<mathiaz> ok. It seems that it needs to be discussed a little bit more.
<ivoks> sorry, i forgot that we need to change dovecot's config also
<mathiaz> ivoks: could you file a bug for that ?
<mathiaz> ivoks: against dovecot.
<ivoks> ok
<lamont> also, please note that neither main.cf nor master.cf is a conffile, nor should they ever be.
<mathiaz> ivoks: Are you willing to do the packaging work also ?
<ivoks> mathiaz: yes
 * soren hugs ivoks 
 * nijaba hugs him too
<mathiaz> ivoks: attach your debdiff and we'll keep discussing the technical bits in the bug.
<ivoks> ok
<lamont> ivoks: and don't replace dovecot or postfix, please.
<mathiaz> [ACTION] ivoks will file a bug to work on dovecot and postfix integration.
<MootBot> ACTION received:  ivoks will file a bug to work on dovecot and postfix integration.
<ivoks> lamont: ok, i'll change dovecot's config and postconf postfix
<lamont> ivoks: if there's a way to export an interface from dovecot, that'd be the win tere.
<lamont> there.
<ivoks> i know...
<mathiaz> ivoks: on a related note, I've looked at fast-cgi
<mathiaz> ivoks: the plan was to move fast-cgid to main
<ivoks> um... fcgid
<ivoks> not fast-cgi
<mathiaz> ivoks: I've described this in the webapplication spec.
<mathiaz> ivoks: yes.
<ivoks> ok
<soren> Yeah, -mod-fastcgi iz evil.
<mathiaz> ivoks: I had one issue: Why choose mod_fcgid over mod_fastcgi ?
<ivoks> i'm also eager to do packaging work for that
<ivoks> it's evil :)
<soren> mathiaz: mod_fastcgi is non-free.
<mathiaz> soren: yes - I've already mentionned that.
<mathiaz> is there another reason ?
<soren> mathiaz: ...but used to be the only way to get apache to do fastcgi, which in turn is the reason why the switch away from mod_php[45] hasn't happened a loooong time ago.
<soren> mathiaz: That's not enough? :)
<mathiaz> what about performance ?
<nijaba> and security ?
<ivoks> i will look into all that
<mathiaz> ivoks: the next step for this is to write a MIR, which needs that sort of information.
<ivoks> and write about it
<mathiaz> ivoks: ok. great !
<ivoks> i know
<mathiaz> [ACTION]: ivoks will write a MIR to include mod-fcgid in main.
<MootBot> ACTION received: : ivoks will write a MIR to include mod-fcgid in main.
<nealmcb> by the way for those that came late like me:  http://kryten.incognitus.net/mootbot/meetings/ubuntu-meeting.20071120_1500.html
<nealmcb> and http://kryten.incognitus.net/mootbot/meetings/ubuntu-meeting.log.20071120_1500.html
<mathiaz> Is there any comments on the ServerTeam Roadmap ?
<nealmcb> I love how mootbot keeps meeting notes in real-time :-)
<ivoks> roadmap to heaven :)
<mathiaz> ok. We've almost run out of time.
<ivoks> i'll also take a look at some modules for apache
<mathiaz> do we need another meeting in one week ?
<ivoks> which aren't in ubuntu, but are life savers...
<nealmcb> mathiaz: sounds useful to me
<nijaba> +1
<ivoks> VOTE
<mathiaz> we can schedule one next week at 16:00 UTC
<nealmcb> is there a conflict with 15:00?
<mathiaz> 15:00 is a bit too early for the west coast people.
<soren> Slackers.
 * nealmcb nods
<nijaba> specially for mathiaz
<mathiaz> we used to run the meeting at 15:00 UTC but with DST it has changed
<mathiaz> the kernel team irc meeting is at 17:00 UTC
<nealmcb> is 1600 bad in the summertime?  or should we (gasp) schedule it in some DST-using timezone for calendar sanity?
 * nealmcb needs a calendar that can schedule in UTC....
<mathiaz> ok. So next meeting will be next week at 16:00 UTC
<mathiaz> same place.
<soren> I'd just like to direct everyone's attention at http://people.ubuntu.com/~ubuntu-archive/pending-sru.html .. There's a few server packages on there that need testing before they can make their way to -updates.
<nealmcb> and you can test some with vms I bet :-)
<soren> If people could test them and report on the relevant bugs if it works for them, that would be a great help.
<soren> nealmcb: Oh, yeah.
<dendrobates> I have to go to another meeting, I'll check the logs for further developments.
<mathiaz> and don't forget the merges.
<mathiaz> dendrobates: well we've finished.
<mathiaz> thanks all for your participation
<nijaba> thanks !
<nealmcb> thanks!
<mathiaz> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 16:58.
<ivoks> a long one
<ivoks> 2 hours
<nealmcb> we did the dst "jump back" during the meeting so it was really only one hour of clock time
<nealmcb> :-)
<ivoks> duration is not the same as time :)
<nealmcb> yeah - the leap-second folks keep saying that
<ivoks> and you were on hour late :p
<pookey> hi mathiaz , thanks for accepting my application to the server team :)
<ivoks> one
<mathiaz> pookey: you're welcome :)
<nijaba> Take care everybody.  See you next week
<nealmcb> ivoks: yup - only 100 minutes for me....
<mdz__> mjg59,Keybuk: ping
<mjg59> Hi
<mdz_> good evening
<mjg59> We still seem to be missing tech board meetings from the calendar
<mdz_> mjg59: which calendar?
<mdz_> they're on mine
<mdz_> the fridge is a black box to me
<mjg59> Well, missing from the topic (for instance)
<mdz_> I think that's driven by the fridge
<mdz_> Keybuk: are you available for the meeting?
<mdz_> sabdfl is on holiday
<mdz_> I'll ring Scott
<mdz_> no answer
<mdz_> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 20:03. The chair is mdz_.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<mdz_> [TOPIC] Martin Pitt's proposal for tightening the MOTU SRU process
<MootBot> New Topic:  Martin Pitt's proposal for tightening the MOTU SRU process
<mdz_> mjg59: have you had a look at this?
<pitti_> hi
<mdz_> it seems eminently sensible to me
<mdz_> (1) is a no-brainer
<Keybuk> to me also
<Keybuk> (hi, btw)
<mdz_> we should start with the same policy as for main, and any divergence from that can be done later with appropriate justification
<mjg59> Yes, it seems broadly sensible to me
<mdz_> I think 2b is likely more effective than 2a
<mdz_> any MOTU should be able to read an SRU request and confirm that it meets the documented policy
<mdz_> particularly since the requestor must explain how it does
<pitti> sorry, what's the topic?
<mdz_> <MootBot> New Topic:  Martin Pitt's proposal for tightening the MOTU SRU process
<mdz_> I'm referring to the numbered points in your email, which it seems was only sent to technical-board so far
<pitti> ah, thanks
<pitti> sistpoty told me that this will also be discussed on the next MOTU meeting, but that will be some days
<mdz_> regarding point 3, rejecting uploads which don't have a bug reference is perfectly acceptable in my opinion
<mdz_> even if the policy were broadened, there needs to be a bug report filed to correspond to the SRU and explain in more detail what it's about
<mdz_> and referring to that in the changelog is just basic good practice
<mdz_> that's a very low bar
<mdz_> pitti: would you like to explain your preference for 2a over 2b?
<mdz_> pitti: and may I paste your points in the channel for context?
 * pitti caught up on ubuntu-devel@ now, seems there is basically a consensus
<pitti> mdz_: feel free to paste anything from my mail
<mdz_> (1) Reintroduce a policy what kinds of bugs should be fixed in stable
<pitti> mdz_: slight preference because this would mean that we have a team which gets experienced with the nature and handling of SRUs
<mdz_>     releases. Ideally this should be identical to the one for main
<mdz_>     [3].
<mdz_> (2a) Reinstate the MOTU-SRU team and require an ack from a team member
<mdz_>     before the upload is done.
<mdz_>  or
<mdz_> (2b) Require acks of at least two other MOTUs before a universe SRU bug
<mdz_>      is considered approved and ready to upload.
<mdz_> (3) The archive admins will reject any upload which does not fulfill
<mdz_>     above criteria. They will reject uploads without any notice if the
<mdz_>     changelog does not have a bug reference. (It takes much time to
<mdz_>     find the corresponding bug report otherwise, or just to find that
<mdz_>     there is none at all.)
<mdz_> pitti: how would you define the role of the team?  to make a judgement about whether an SRU proposal meets the criteria?
<pitti> right, pretty much what ubuntu-sru does for main ATM: approve/deny/discuss patches, mangle bug tasks, supervise and enforce policy
<mdz_> if so, I that's not so specialized that I think we need a team to house that experience, but if it would make the process work more smoothly, I have no particular objection to it
<mdz_> ok, there's a bit more to it then
<mdz_> if they're expected to make judgements about the implementation and discuss patches
<pitti> TBH I'd leave that decision between 2a) and 2b) to the MOTUs themselves
<pitti> if they don't want such a team and think that manpower is an issue, let's try peer review first
<pitti> that spreads the patch review and discussion about the necessity, which is a good thing
<mdz_> I'm happy to delegate it to the MOTU council
<mdz_> and let them decide
<mdz_> mjg59,Keybuk: any other comments or questions for pitti?
<pitti> (between 2a and 2b, right?)
<Keybuk> nope, none from me
<mjg59> I think I'm happy with that conclusion
<mdz_> pitti: yes
<mdz_> [VOTE] confirm approval for pitti's plan, delegating the decision between 2a and 2b to the MOTU Council
<MootBot> Please vote on:  confirm approval for pitti's plan, delegating the decision between 2a and 2b to the MOTU Council.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<mdz_> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from mdz_. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<Keybuk> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from Keybuk. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<mjg59> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from mjg59. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<mdz_> #endvote
<mdz_> MootBot: poke
<mdz_> #endvote
<pitti> thanks
<mdz_> anyway
<mdz_> pitti: will you communicate the decision to the council on our behalf?
<pitti> mdz_: maybe you need to address it?
<pitti> mdz_: yes, I'm happy to do that
<mdz_> MootBot: #endvote
<mdz_> pitti: ok, thanks
<mdz_> [ACTION] pitti to liaise with MOTU Council to implement the plan
<MootBot> ACTION received:  pitti to liaise with MOTU Council to implement the plan
<mdz_> [TOPIC] Perl regular expressions in grep
<MootBot> Vote is in progress. Finishing now.
<MootBot> Final result is 3 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 3
<MootBot> New Topic:  Perl regular expressions in grep
<mdz_> this was raised by Joe Terranova <joeterranova@ubuntu.com> via email
<Keybuk> err, do you have the e-mail?
<mdz_> the issue is that he wants grep linked with libpcre to provide perl-compatible regex support
<mdz_> discussion is here: https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/15051
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 15051 in grep "grep -P is not supported" [Medium,Confirmed]
<mdz_> Keybuk: I've also forwarded the email to you
<Keybuk> oh, yes, I saw that one
<Keybuk> didn't libpcre just have a *major* security hole?
<mjg59> grep is required - pcre is important
<mjg59> (from a point of view of just worrying about priorities)
<mdz_> I don't see the problem with pcregrep, to be honest
<mdz_> it's not as if this is a standard grep feature
<mdz_> Keybuk: I don't know, but it's already in main and used by gobs of stuff
<Keybuk> isn't that basically just "perl -n" ?
<mdz_> including network services
<mdz_> Keybuk: no, not quite
<mdz_> it provides grep-like command line options
<mjg59> There was an issue with perl's regular expression library, but we didn't ship updates to libpcre
<mdz_> it ships with pcre3
<Keybuk> What's wrong with linking grep against pcre?
<mdz_> the only point raised in the bug is that it's in /usr/lib
<mdz_> and therefore would need to be moved to /lib
<mjg59> Which is hardly an issue
<mdz_> I have no particular objection to that, but it means maintaining that delta from Debian and doesn't buy us much
<Keybuk> it's in /lib in Fedora
<mdz_> the Debian bug is http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=350468
<ubotu> Debian bug 350468 in libpcre3 "libpcre3: install libpcre.so* in /lib" [Wishlist,Open]
<Keybuk> why won't Debian put it in /lib ?
 * ogra1 tries to find out what a gob is to determine hw much stuff in main uses it
<mdz_> sounds like the Debian grep maintainers are on board with it
<mdz_> but not the pcre3 maintainer(s)
<mjg59> We'd need to maintain a small delta and we'd use up an extra 150K in /
<mjg59> I don't think this is a compelling argument against doing it
<mdz_> the other question is, who would do the work and look after it?
<mdz_> there aren't any comments from core-devs in support
<mdz_> I have no argument against the technical correctness of doing this, only practical questions
<mjg59> I'm happy with us making the technical decision, and then leaving the practical ones up to someone who cares
<mdz_> if someone in core-dev wants to do it, I'm not bothered
<Keybuk> do we need to care?  if he's asked the TB for a decision, and we have consensus, then actually persuading someone to do it is his problem? :)
<mdz_> I suppose not, but it's the obvious next question
<mjg59> I don't think worrying about who's going to do something this trivial is our problem
<mdz_> [VOTE] approve moving libpcre (~150k) from /usr/lib to /lib to accomodate grep -P
<MootBot> Please vote on:  approve moving libpcre (~150k) from /usr/lib to /lib to accomodate grep -P.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<mdz_> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from mdz_. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<Keybuk> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from Keybuk. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<mjg59> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from mjg59. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<mdz_> #endvote
<mdz_> MootBot: silly bot
<mdz_> [TOPIC] AOB
<MootBot> Vote is in progress. Finishing now.
<MootBot> Final result is 3 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 3
<MootBot> New Topic:  AOB
<mdz_> any other business?
<mdz_> [ACTION] mdz to communicate libpcre decision to the relevant Launchpad bug
<MootBot> ACTION received:  mdz to communicate libpcre decision to the relevant Launchpad bug
<mdz_> adjourned, thanks all
<mdz_> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 20:36.
<Keybuk> np :)
<ogra1> :)
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-11-21
<Hobbsee> @schedule sydney
<ubotu> Schedule for Australia/Sydney: 23 Nov 01:00: Desktop Team Development | 23 Nov 23:00: MOTU meeting | 30 Nov 01:00: Desktop Team Development
<lifeless> hahahhaha. NO.
<MacSlow> hi lifeless
<lifeless> hi MacSlow
<Hobbsee> lifeless: ?
<lifeless> 0100 meetings. unlikely ;)
<Hobbsee> they're not so bad.
<lifeless> yes, when you're waking at 0600 :)
<Hobbsee> lifeless: well, that goes without saying.
<RichEd> ogra you here ?
<ogra> sure
<RichEd> we'll keep it short today guys ... ogra and I have specs to finalise
<RichEd> ogra: tech
<ogra> well, main achievent of the last week was to get the educonlinux,eu server up and running
<ogra> beyond that and some classmate stuff not much has happened in edubuntu land ...
<ogra> the LTSP upstream handover is going on, i wrote some scripts to make that code change easier but i'm waiting for sbalneav to merge and roll out a tarball
<ogra> thats about it from tech
<ogra> next deadline is debian import freeze on dec 13th ...
<ogra> there are a bunch of manual merges to be done, but no biggies
<RichEd> ogra: other people committed to specs or work for 8.04 ?
<ogra> http://merges.ubuntu.com/main.html
<ogra> moquist is doing work on edubuntu-content-server as before ....
<RichEd> Can we hear from them if they are here: #1 are the specs written (for deadline tomorrow) ... #2 can they manage the workload
<RichEd> moquist - content-server
<ogra> and stgraber does italc ... (which will need a MIR etc and its not clear yet the tech board wants to let such new stuff into 8.04)
<ogra> i'll check through the specs
<RichEd> LaserJock - menus completion
<stgraber> I have done some work on iTalc, I'll revert my sudo patches and add two scripts I did to generate the .xml config file
<RichEd> and sbalneav - LTSP
<ogra> currently only italc, content-server, menus-completion and addon-cd are on my list
<ogra> LTSP specs are all owned by ltsp-drivers ... not ubuntu
<stgraber> but the original packaging looks good, only problem I see is that they introduced a separated lib and I'm not sure if I should create one more binary package for that
<ogra> so nothing to approve there
<ogra> stgraber, depends hos close you want to stick to debian policy
<ogra> *how
<stgraber> so we would have italc-master italc-client and libitalc with libitalc containing a single file used by the two others
<ogra> by policy you would have to ...
<stgraber> well, italc-master can't be installed without italc-client, so I don't really see the point of creating another binary package
<RichEd> stgraber: could you do us a big favour ? could you do a short outline of:
<ogra> but i know there are KDE packages that ship their own libs in the package as well
<RichEd> * where italc is now
<RichEd> * what you would like to do for 8.04
<ogra> stgraber, i dont think it's *needed*
<RichEd> * risk on each point (in terms of delivery)
<ogra> (it was accepted for debian as is :) )
<RichEd> * issues
<stgraber> ok, well current version is 1.0.3 but the one working (lot of changes + fix for VNC) is 1.0.4 and should be released "soon"
<ogra> do you have any info if that will be in time before feature freeze
<stgraber> we would like to have italc well integrated which means having menu entry (not done yet), creation of keys at install time (done), detection of LTSP clients (done) and an easier UI
<ogra> well, adding a .desktop file is a no brainer :)
<stgraber> I have no idea, it's in the "stable" svn branch but I didn't see any change for a very long time
<stgraber> ogra: yes, but to run italc you need to have ica running so I'll need to make sure ica is launched at session open time
<ogra> hmm, we should probably ask upstream if they have any real ETA
<ogra> well, add a script that checks for ica :)
<ogra> (worst case)
<stgraber> I currently have done two scripts, one running ica on different ports for each thin clients (and default port for server), another to generate the .xml file from the running ica and then start italc
<stgraber> so italc and ica will have launcher scripts to work with LTSP
<ogra> cool
<ogra> you really rock :)
<RichEd> stgraber: would you be able to add that info to: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EdubuntuAndItalcHardy
<stgraber> from my point of view 1.0.4 is really stable (haven't tested it on Windows though) so talking with upstream about our deadlines may give us a new official italc release
 * ogra hopes so
<stgraber> I can email him or ogra (he's german)
<ogra> can you  ? and CC me ?
<stgraber> ok
<stgraber> the current debian/ dir is on bzr, I'll also push the instruction about the SVN branch I'm using
<ogra> you could let LP mirror it into bzr ;)
<ogra> even though that wouldnt buy us anything for upstream commits i guess
<ogra> so thats it for tech i guess
<ogra> RichEd, ?
<RichEd> yep ... looks like it
<ogra> management/community ?
<RichEd> not much else for today from my side ... deadline pressing more urgently
<RichEd> no pips1 for web sites
<pygi> there should be more community involvement :)
<RichEd> anyone else with issues / questions ?
<RichEd> like the point pygi raised ...
<RichEd> pygi: "more community involvement :)" in the meeting, in the production of edubuntu, or in general
<RichEd> please expand and give ideas on how to address ?
<pygi> well, in everything ... edubuntu doesn't really have a lot of people around it, and those who used to hang around here left even since they felt somehow discouraged
<RichEd> pygi: any idea how we address that ? #1 what was discouraging #2 new recruiting ?
<ogra> pygi, edubuntu has tons of people around it ... its lacking devlopers
<ogra> the prob here is that our users are busy teachers ;)
<pygi> ogra: how come we dont get to see any of those people raising voices in discussions, creating new ideas, writing docs?
<ogra> they do, on the mailing lists
<ogra> most users we have are not IRC people
<pygi> well, I dont think I get a lot of m-l traffic from edubuntu
<Kamping_Kaiser> theres a certain amount of RL involved for some people too :(
<pygi> Kamping_Kaiser: ofcourse, that's true as well
<RichEd> pygi: what we need is a champion to get some community buzz going
<ogra> pygi, feel free to make some more noise on the ML ;)
<pygi> RichEd: heh, doesn't Canonical have Jono? Is he all about Ubuntu? Cause it surely seems so
<RichEd> pips1 can do work on the facilities, but we need someone to think of exciting things to build interest
<RichEd> pygi: he will support what we do, but he cannot lead ...
<pygi> heh
<RichEd> the sort of thing laserjock and i have discussed is a weekly or monthly poll on the mail lists
<RichEd> something that every person can respond to ... not just problem issues
<pygi> well, all I can say is that people I've spoken to feel pretty discouraged ... and they are not some unknown folks :)
<Kamping_Kaiser> sounds like the 'dead man' switch on trains - you have to keep hitting it to show your alive *heh*
<RichEd> especially on ubuntu-education .. where we can ask questions about teachers real lives
<pygi> ogra: I know devs for edubuntu was always a problem .... but I thought canonical would hire you some helpers
<pygi> that was supposed to happen ages ago
<RichEd> the problem is that we do not have anyone who has a clear headspace to get that started
<ogra> pygi, instead i moved into the distro team and am able to share out the load now ... many of the probs we face are not 100% education related ...
<Kamping_Kaiser> RichEd, i'm inclined to agree
<ogra> so they will be handled by people that are on the topic anyway
<pygi> ogra: true, but are ldap-related, new apps development related, better collaboration with upstream, and such
<ogra> i personally will be the responsible edu contact and only care for edu apps and the building of the edubuntu addon CD to the ubuntu base
<RichEd> we get people in the channel who pop in and offer to help in some way (once they are impressed by how our s/w is making their life easier and say they want to give back)
<ogra> *all other stuff* like ldap etc doesnt belong into edu at all
<ogra> its a job for the server team to solve that
<RichEd> the problem is that it takes a clear head and time to bring them into the right palce to become productive
<ogra> pygi, upstream only as far as its edu apps
<ogra> if thats not the case that person already working with upstream will have to take on
<pygi> RichEd: been there, done that. Everybody offers to help, but there's nobody to mentor them and make them work
<pygi> I can take my experience with the Handbook as an example
 * pygi must apologize for crashing in the meeting like this, but ...
<RichEd> so i think we need a "community ambasssador - 1st point of contact for volunteers"
<RichEd> pygi: it is an issue we are grappling with ... needs attention
<pygi> RichEd: perhaps, but it's taking ages
<RichEd> highvoltage: has said that he is getting more time that he could apply back into edubuntu ... he might be the ideal ambassador
<RichEd> he is knowledgeable, and patient
<RichEd> cbx33 also says he can mentor a bit, but does not want to live in the channel again for a while
<highvoltage> howdy
<highvoltage> ooh, meeting
<RichEd> highvoltage: hi
<highvoltage> hi RichEd
<ogra> RichEd, i'm a bit cautious about cbx33
<RichEd> highvoltage: <RichEd> so i think we need a "community ambasssador - 1st point of contact for volunteers"
<RichEd> highvoltage:
<RichEd> <RichEd> highvoltage: has said that he is getting more time that he could apply back into edubuntu ... he might be the ideal ambassador
<RichEd> <RichEd> he is knowledgeable, and patient
<ogra> after the experience with TCM
<ogra> (he just dropped it on the floor silently)
<RichEd> highvoltage: would you be willing to help in that sort of a way ?
<highvoltage> RichEd: what would that entail?
<highvoltage> RichEd: I'm on leave from the 10th, from then I'll have lotsof time for pretty much anything I need to do
<highvoltage> next year should also be quite smooth compared to the rocky 2007 year
<ogra> highvoltage, a lot of extra time and a promise to give us your firstborn :=)
<highvoltage> ogra: that all!? :)
<ogra> yeah, only that :)
<RichEd> highvoltage: being called the education community ambassador (nominal name to give confidence to volunteers)
<Kamping_Kaiser> highvoltage, labour shortage, only taking one child atm ;)
<RichEd> being 1st point of contact fora volunteer
 * Kamping_Kaiser wonders what happens if the first born was twins
<RichEd> advising them on how to help ....
<RichEd> advising us on what we need
<RichEd> ---
<ogra> Kamping_Kaiser, we'll take the first onf them still :)
<RichEd> highvoltage: no actual work, just hand holding ?
<Kamping_Kaiser> ogra, :)
<highvoltage> RichEd: I'm up for it, but I must admit I'm not an education expert. I know a lot of people I can fall back on if I get stuck though.
<highvoltage> RichEd: but hand-holding, sure, I'm quite good at that, I think :)
<RichEd> highvoltage: have you heard a term used in advertising : traffic
<ogra> you dont need to b edu expert ... we want a motivation expert ;)
<RichEd> the dude who stands in the road pointing to where people need to go
<highvoltage> RichEd: and I practically live on IRC/lists, if people mention my name or hilight me, I'll be here, if I'm awake or not driving.
<highvoltage> give me an "E"!
<highvoltage> ok
<ogra> E
<highvoltage> RichEd: ok, good
<RichEd> highvoltage: once the ball is rolling it will drop away and can get more widespread
<highvoltage> RichEd: ok, baby steps, I like that.
<RichEd> in a nutshell the problem is someone saying: "how can I help" and a lack of time or attention from RichEd and /or ogra means we do not get to harness them
<highvoltage> ah yes.
<pygi> it also means harrasing people to actually do some work =)
 * RichEd gives highvoltage the riding crop
<RichEd> highvoltage: okay ... we can take this offline and make some sort of a suggestion plan ... and I'll share it next week with the rest of the people at the meeting
<highvoltage> pygi: I know how to harass people (mhuhahahahaha)
<highvoltage> RichEd: ok, that sounds good
<RichEd> step 1 i would think is a nice friendly email we can have on record, and bang out to anyone looking like they are interested in putting in some effort
<ogra> just dont forget about te new structure we have
<pygi> highvoltage: I know you can :p
<highvoltage> ogra: I might have to catch up to the new structure
<ogra> people working on server apps should be directed to the server team, desktop to the desktop team etc
<RichEd> part of this is also a revision of the launchpad groups ... cull the sick and weary ... and get the live ones back to health
<highvoltage> ogra: interesting.
<ogra> highvoltage, edubuntu technical is focused on the edubuntu addon CD ...
<ogra> all other stuff has to go int distro
<highvoltage> ogra: the Ubuntu CD?
<RichEd> ogra / highvoltage : but any volunteer who comes in via us must first be given the education badge and oath of allegiance
<ogra> (ideed on behalf of us, if some edubuntu user comes and wants to work on server stuff he has to do that inside teh server team but we need to make sure he doesnt loose contact to edubuntu)
<highvoltage> RichEd: ok
<RichEd> so they can help the server team, but will do so from an education user / admin / support perspective
<ogra> highvoltage, right, our base will be one of the ubuntu CDs ... either server or desktop
<RichEd> highvoltage: we can do this with launchpad group membership
<ogra> edubuntu will turn into a plain educational addon
<ogra> so all stuff thats not on that addon CD has to be handed elsewhere
<highvoltage> ogra: that makes sense from a practical p.o.v., even though we loose some slight turn-key-bility
<ogra> yeah
<ogra> well, its the only way to put off load if you dont want to hire more and more people
<RichEd> highvoltage: we were pretty much crossing over the 1CD limit
<highvoltage> if someone orders an edubuntu and an ubuntu cd, at least they won't have two cd's with 95% identical data anymore
<highvoltage> gives the team more space to focus on education, rather than technical aspects
<ogra> well, actually the plan was that you can order a two CD set if you order edubuntu ...
<ogra> but thats not 100% approved yet
<highvoltage> aah
<ogra> like we did for warty
<ogra> on one side of the sleeve you have ubuntu, on the other you have the addon
<RichEd> highvoltage: and we will try to push for a link on the ubuntu firefox home page saying "if you want to convert your ubuntu installation to edubuntu click here"
<Kamping_Kaiser> that would be cool.
<RichEd> and then give advice on download or ordering the edubuntu CD
<Kamping_Kaiser> can i ask what the status is of the 'edubuntu-not-just-for-primary' concept? (disclaimer, havent tried last two releases)
<Kamping_Kaiser> *lower primary
<ogra> it was on low prio ... my personal focus was to get us mass deployment ready
<ogra> a duty that now moved into the server team realm, so i should have more time for that n 8.10
<RichEd> Kamping_Kaiser: there are lots of good apps already in main ... laserjocks menu enhancements were going to help with getting that impression and functionality across
<Kamping_Kaiser> RichEd, nice. i'll look forward to trying it all our in a month or two
<ogra> not actually the menu enhancements
<ogra> rather the addon cd work
<RichEd> also, I have a major priority task to provide a list (wiki, www.ubuntu.com and pdf) on all the education applications in main with an indicator for:
<ogra> we have the prereuisite on the addon to just have different age driven flavors
<RichEd> * subject * age * grade * version * from CD * from add/remvoe
<ogra> *prerequisite
<ogra> (our current addon has categorization features already, just lacking the categories)
<ogra> i.e. we have the light desktop that installs a subset of xfce
<RichEd> highvoltage: can we make a time to chat about the ambassador idea ? an hour on the weekend could work for me to get started
<ogra> you can do that age driven as well
<Kamping_Kaiser> sounds interesting
<highvoltage> RichEd: yep, any  time over the weekend would be good
<highvoltage> RichEd: otherwise this evening would be goof too, are you back home?
<RichEd> yep ... can try ... might be a bit busy with specs ... i'll ping you after 6:00
<highvoltage> ok
<RichEd> any other matters arising ?
<RichEd> some news I will leave you with: http://www.linuxplanet.com/linuxplanet/newss/6438/1/
<RichEd> "According to the Macedonia Ministry of Education and Science, more than 180,000 workstations running Edubuntu 7.04 have already begun to be deployed to Macedonian students."
<pygi> we know, we know :D
<RichEd> pygi: official release went out yesterday
<RichEd> ogra: you done ?
<ogra> i'm done so far
<pygi> RichEd: unofficial ages ago :D
<RichEd> going once ?
<pygi> twice
<ogra> adjourned ?
<RichEd> and gong
<RichEd> thanks all
<ogra> :)
<pygi> sold to the folk in red
<ogra> tanks
<Kamping_Kaiser> um. meeting over?
<pygi> Kamping_Kaiser: aha
 * Kamping_Kaiser assumes so
<Kamping_Kaiser> ok. see you all in edu ;)
 * pedro_ waves
<sourcercito> hi there
 * heno waves
<pedro_> hey sourcercito
<pedro_> hello heno
 * ogasawara is here
<cjwatson> oh, have I clashed with a QA meeting?
<cjwatson> drat
<heno> hey pedro_, ogasawara
<liw> hi
<pedro_> hello ogasawara, liw
<calc> there is nothing scheduled on fridge for today afaict
<heno> cjwatson: what meeting do you need to conduct?
<ogra> someone should really fix the fridge
<evand> hi
<nand`> hi
<heno> we can go to the qa channel
<cjwatson> heno: platform team. I'll take it to #ubuntu-platform
<heno> ok, thanks
<heno> yeah the fridge has a very short memory
<seb128> hey
<ogra> seb128, -> #ubuntu-platform
<heno> let's give everyone a moment to change rooms :)
<seb128> ogra: how come?
<ogra> schedule clash
<seb128> we have a well defined schedule, the other team should change ;-)
<ogra> heh
<cjwatson> we're moving now
<ogra> well, neither is on the fridge
<cjwatson> both are on Google calendar; we knew they were at the same time, just not that they were in the same channel
<cjwatson> bryce: #ubuntu-platform please
<ogra> ubotu should get a googlecal backend then :)
 * heno suspect the google calender fails to say that the QA meeting is here
<cjwatson> I didn't think to check, as we haven't clashed before
<heno> cjwatson: is this a new regular time for you?
<cjwatson> same as always, but we alternate between irc.c.c and irc.f.n
<heno> hm, did you adjust to daylights savings time?
<heno> (we did not)
<heno> (relative to UTC)
<cjwatson> ah, we adjusted yes
<heno> ok. perhaps we should consider alternating between c.c and freenode as well
<heno> that way we could fit in a people with different time constraints better too
<heno> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 16:10. The chair is heno.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<heno> Welcome to the QA team meeting
<heno> The agenda is here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam
<heno> (very short)
<heno> If you've come for the  platform meeting see #ubuntu-platform/freenode
<heno> [TOPIC] Spec status - all Hardy specs to be finalised by 2007-11-21 (tomorrow)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Spec status - all Hardy specs to be finalised by 2007-11-21 (tomorrow)
<liw> 2007-11-21 was tomorrow yesterday, i.e., it is today
<heno> liw: you're right, my typo
<heno> should be Thursd 22nd
<ogasawara> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Specs/DeveloperWeatherReport
<ogasawara> let me know if you guys have any more feedback
<heno> fixed in wiki
<heno> ogasawara: looks good to me, and steve seems happy with it too
<heno> So I'll go ahead and approve
<ogasawara> heno: great, thanks
<heno> I havent followed up as well as I should on spec writing the past few days, sorry, been a bit ill
<heno> My form seems to be returning now though, fortunately
<liw> my two specs are https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Specs/DesktopAutomatedTests and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Specs/SelfTestingDesktop -- is there anything more I should do about them?
<heno> liw: they both need review still. Please ask someone on the review team to look at SelfTestingDesktop
<heno> The other one has been discussed already I think?
<liw> oh, I thought it was enough to mark them for review in launchpad (should read instructions better)
<heno> I can approve these without a formal review first, but it's always better to get a third oppinion
<heno> liw: you actually have to ping a review team member
<liw> right, looking up info on that now
<heno> pedro_: FixedBugVerification looks ready, thanks
<pedro_> heno: yep , thanks for your feedback on it
<pedro_> will ask a member of the review team to see it
<heno> looks like Brian's specs still need to have Bof notes merged into the spec
<heno> could someone here help with that
<heno> I guess most of you were in these meetings
<pedro_> let me check if i have the gobby logs
<heno> I can do the final cleanup and review afterwards
<heno> pedro_: thanks
<ogasawara> pedro_: I'll check to see which logs I have too
<pedro_> great
<heno> short meeting then. any other topics?
<stgraber> hello
<liw> I can't find the info on whom to e-mail about reviewing my spec(s)
<stgraber> I haven't managed to reach the bus on time so I'm still at the station :)
<heno> liw: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-reviewers
<heno> stgraber: with a laptop I assume
<liw> heno, so I should just pick a random member of the review team and e-mail them?
<heno> stgraber: perhaps we can meet up on IRC later and chat about specs?
<heno> (I'm a bit behind in my review)
<stgraber> heno: sure, I need some advice :)
<stgraber> I have the wifi connection till 17:50, then will be back at around 18:30 :)
<heno> liw: yes, preferably someone who knows the topic a bit. steve would be good
<liw> heno, er, steve? I see no steve in the membership list
<liw> wait, I *have* seen this page before, I now realize I wondered before whether Ian Jackson is still an active member
<heno> hm, he has been doing other reviews
<heno> looks a bit out of date ...
<liw> steve langasek?
<heno> yes
<ogasawara> pedro_: I can't seem to find any useful gobby notes for brian's specs
<heno> there are some notes pasted at the bottom of each though
<pedro_> ogasawara: it seems that i have the same ones listed at his specs on the wiki page
<heno> I think we're done
<liw> aye
<heno> Thanks all!
<heno> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 16:32.
<liw> may all our meetings be so short :)
<ogasawara> thanks heno, hope you start feeling better :)
<heno> :)
<heno> ogasawara: thanks, looks that way
<pedro_> thanks!, heno get better soon :-)
 * pedro_ hugs heno
 * heno hugs pedro_ back
<stgraber> argh, crappy wireless, have to take the bus now ...
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-11-22
<MacSlow> Greetings everybody!
<juliux> hi MacSlow
<MacSlow> hi juliux
<zul> @schedule montreal
<ubotu> Schedule for America/Montreal: 22 Nov 09:00: Desktop Team Development | 23 Nov 07:00: MOTU meeting | 29 Nov 09:00: Desktop Team Development
<Hobbsee> @now
<ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: November 22 2007, 13:20:57 - Next meeting: Desktop Team Development in 39 minutes
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Desktop Team Development Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 23 Nov 12:00 UTC: MOTU meeting | 29 Nov 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development
<Keybuk> GOOD AFTERNOON!
<seb128> hey hey hey
<kwwii> howdy
 * Hobbsee waves
<Keybuk> (we've lost a pitti)
<Hobbsee> uh oh
 * Hobbsee sends out a search party
<Keybuk> Apologies from Ted today
<kwwii> that is such a pitti :-)
<seb128> yeah for fixed merges.ubuntu.com index ;-)
<Keybuk> something to do with turkey apparently
<Riddell> hi
<kwwii> hooray for turkey day
<Keybuk> first thing on the agenda
<Keybuk> today is spec approval day
<Keybuk> I realise that quite a few of these are blocked on me reviewing them (hi, mvo! :p)
<Keybuk> but we'll run down the list anyway
<Keybuk> Riddell:
<Keybuk>   kubuntu-hardy-kde4 ... still drafting
 * mvo waves
<Keybuk> I assume that this is pending our current discussion in <-- that window
<Keybuk> ?
<Riddell> Keybuk: mm, yes, I'll got onto it after the meeting
<Keybuk> and kubuntu-hardy-catchup is approved
<Keybuk> are there any other kubuntu specs that should be goals for hardy?
<Riddell> only KDE parts of other specs
<Keybuk> could you mail me a list of those parts, and who is going to do them
<Keybuk> just one liners for each is fine
<Riddell> ok
<Keybuk>   "some-random-spec: boyrabbit has to implement a Qt frontend"
<Keybuk> or something
<Keybuk> ok, Ken
<Keybuk> art-team we discussed -- you're going to work on getting that to review today?
<kwwii> Keybuk: yes, I've already started...should be done in a bit
<Hobbsee> Keybuk: the one about world domination, of course.
<Keybuk> and hardy-theme and hardy-icon-theme are awaiting the outcome of decision by Mark etc.
<kwwii> Keybuk: right, I guess that for now they are as final as we can get without a definite decision
<Keybuk> still no pitti
<kwwii> but they are structured such that we could probalby go ahead with them
<Keybuk> and mvo and I have yet to bash out his spec list
<mvo> Keybuk: I can try to call him
<mvo> yeah, my spec list got a bit out of hand
<Keybuk> mvo: please do
<Keybuk> MacSlow: you have gdm-face-browser at review
<Keybuk> (waiting on me, but I can give you immediate feedback -- still needs the > 100 mockup :p)
<seb128> new gdm doesn't look good for information
<Keybuk> seb128: how do you mean?
<StevenK> TBH, I'd prefer to sleep, but I'm here. :-)
<seb128> Keybuk: no way to select the language or session, no gdmflexiserver, no gdmsetup and SVN moves moderately quickly
<mvo> pitti will be here soon
<MacSlow> Keybuk, hm
<pitti> hi! I'm terribly sorry
<Keybuk> MacSlow: also you have hardy-desktop-effects to complete drafting of
<Keybuk> and one I snuck in to your list today, so I won't nag about that
<seb128> hey pitti
<Keybuk> pitti: hey
 * pitti mixed it up with 1600, sorry
<Keybuk> StevenK: you've been drafting about-this-computer, and it's now ready for review again?
<StevenK> Keybuk: Yes.
<MacSlow> Keybuk, 100 is the threshold were I want to disable the face-browser... for numerous reasons... one is performance on low-end hardware with very little ram... the other is images become too small to be cleanly recognizable... especially on low resolution screens
 * mvo hugs pitti
<Keybuk> MacSlow: right, so that's the missing mock-up -- a username box and example flow for it
<StevenK> Keybuk: Well, I think I've addressed all of your concerns
<MacSlow> Keybuk, ok
<Keybuk> StevenK: ok, cool; Ted will own that spec, though I appreciate you'll want to help out as your -mobile time permits
<Keybuk> (but I'm not going to ask for any time, since I've only just had a rant at david for stealing people on my team :p)
<StevenK> Haha
<Keybuk> mpt: you're the drafter for exit-strategy -- that spec needs a little more tidying up before review, how's that going?
<StevenK> Keybuk: TBH, I'm perferctly happy owning it, I was planning on doing it outside core hours
<MacSlow> seb128, I don't really like to have these gdm-setup things exposed directly in the greeter itself
<mpt> Keybuk, I'm finishing off the design right now (it'll be another hour or three), but I don't know who can write the Implementation section
<Keybuk> StevenK: but if it's on my roadmap (which it is), then I can't rely on you being able to have enough free time :-/
<Keybuk> mpt: Ted should be able to help with that
<mpt> ok
<MacSlow> seb128, after all that admin work... and a admin can log in and use the tool from the system menu
<StevenK> Keybuk: Sure.
<Keybuk> pitti: we discussed yours earlier
<pitti> yep; any questions from other folks?
<Keybuk> restricted-manager-rewrite and partition-management are approved
<Keybuk> hardy-reducing-duplication is awaiting cjwatson approval?
<pitti> right, doko gave his thumbs-up
<Keybuk> policykit-integration awaiting comments from kees and cjwatson?
<pitti> correct
<Keybuk> ok
<pitti> I was planning on working on this, so I hope I won't get it implemented before approval :-P
<Keybuk> :-)
<Keybuk> but it's so much fun when that happens
<StevenK> Hah. A few mobile specs are in danger of that
<Keybuk> I enjoy it when the specification process is subverted
<StevenK> In that case, I've just uploaded about-window, enjoy.
 * StevenK ducks
<Keybuk> and for the record, on my plate are hardy-hardware-detection which is a spec that involves several pieces from several people across several teams
<Keybuk> so I'll be chasing it
<Keybuk> and I'll also be keeping an eye on prefetch, which is hopefully just a matter of nudging upstream for it and nudging the kernel team
<Keybuk> (and running lots of tests in vmware to compare with readahead)
<Keybuk> are there any other desktopish specs we should go over?
<mpt> packaging-tools-usability
<mpt> I completed that in a hurry and perhaps mvo would like to give it a sanity check?
<mvo> thanks for drafting that mpt
<mvo> mpt: I looked over it a couple of minutes ago and it looked good, I need to compare it to my notes but IIRC it covers the session pretty well
<Keybuk> mvo: ok, update the status whiteboard once you're happy
<Keybuk> I think that's in my approval queue
<mvo> ok
<mpt> I made some arbitrary guesses about stuff that's too big for Hardy
<MacSlow> When can I throw in the "display names with user-photos in the face-browser"-question?
<Keybuk> MacSlow: presently; we'll clear off the spec list, that's a topic on the agenda :)
<Keybuk> ok, no other specs ;)
<Keybuk> MacSlow: right, your topic :-)  explain and we'll debate
<MacSlow> will I look stupid when I ask for the place to read up on the agenda?
<MacSlow> ah... ok
<MacSlow> so Kees had the objection that displaying user-names with the users photo in the face-browser is a security-hole
<MacSlow> http://people.ubuntu.com/~mmueller/face-browser-3.png
<MacSlow> see that mockup to get an idae
<Keybuk> you're not actually showing usernames there though?
<Keybuk> you're showing users names
<MacSlow> correct
<MacSlow> it's showing the real names...
<MacSlow> for two reasons...
<MacSlow> one is to not expose the actualy login-id of a user
<MacSlow> the second is to be more real world like
 * pitti likes that better, too
<Keybuk> to me, this seems to alleviate kees' concerns
<MacSlow> third is to help with the possibility of two or more people having chosen the same image from the stock image set provided
<pitti> not hard to guess the usernames then, of course
<pitti> (OTOH kdm has done this for ages)
<Keybuk> http://www.guidebookgallery.org/pics/gui/startupshutdown/login/macosx103-1-1.png
<StevenK> pitti: Maybe. "Martin Pitt" -> "pitti" isn't an obvious mapping, for example
<pitti> StevenK: installer defaults to a lower-case variant of the name
<StevenK> kdm shows both the real name and username
<MacSlow> well I think it not necessary easy to guess login-id from a real name... very often login-ids are totally abstract jibberish
<MacSlow> especially on larger installations
<pitti> right (where it matters more, too)
<mvo> and it does not help with the password (as long its not a joe password)
<Keybuk> I think that not displaying some form of name is a usability problem
<pitti> abstract jibberish like "MacSlow" for example :-P
<Keybuk> especially for abstract pictures
<MacSlow> pitti, but you're right... sometimes it can be easy to map back
<kwwii> we had a long discussion about this same issues years ago at suse when we switched to a face browser, in the end those who it worries can turn it off
<pitti> MacSlow: I'm not overly concerned about this TBH
<MacSlow> pitti, right again... I think It's hard to map MacSlow to "Mirco MÃ¼ller"
<Keybuk> http://www.winsupersite.com/images/showcase/winxp_login.jpg
<pitti> meh, WinXP doesn't even assign passwords by default :)
<MacSlow> yeah... and MacOS does show real names too
 * pitti was shocked when he installed his very fist XP a few days ago (my last install was 3.11, duh)
<Keybuk> pitti: what is the concern with revealing the username?
<MacSlow> pitti, what... you're kidding?
<Keybuk> what extra thing does it actually give the attacker?
<pitti> Keybuk: one half (the easy one, admittedly) of getting an account
<Keybuk> pitti: but what does that allow them to do?
<MacSlow> Keybuk, I have no idea... I'm not a network/security person
 * mpt is reminded of the idea for a login system that doesn't use login names at all, just two-word passwords
<Keybuk> they can get that by *clicking on the picture* :)
<pitti> Keybuk: right, but they can't do that right now in gdm
<Keybuk> sure, so the problem isn't "names visible on the face browser"
<Keybuk> it's actually "face browser"
<pitti> but as I said, it's only a minor point, and I'm not overly concerned about it
<Keybuk> since the face browser inherently reduces the security to just a password because you can click on the picture to get the username half entered for you
<mpt> OS X makes it a preference, probably for that reason
<Keybuk> and security-concious can always turn off the face browser
<pitti> I just remember people squeaking when ssh allowed you to detect the validity of an username
<pitti> (timing attack)
<pitti> but that's a different use case class
<pitti> with local access like gdm I don't think it's an important problem
<Keybuk> ok
<Keybuk> anyone else have any thoughts?
<MacSlow> So I take from that that "real names" are fine as a default, with the option available via gdm-setup to disable them
<pitti> are there some defaults for the faces? like picking the next free picture that's shipped by default?
 * ogra has lots of thoughts ... but wont tell Keybuk :P
<pitti> MacSlow: that will look very friendly
<pitti> (to avoid all users having the same default pic, which would be confusing)
<MacSlow> pitti, I'm getting my head together with kwwii and andrean to provide a set of 100 256x256 stock-images for this case
<pitti> 100! wow
<StevenK> Keybuk: So, can I get paroled? It's 1:30am here... :-)
<MacSlow> kwwii, said email went out about 30 min. ago in case you're wondering
<Keybuk> StevenK: go to bed :)
<pitti> MacSlow: I expected something like 5 :)
<StevenK> Keybuk: Thanks :-)
<kwwii> not sure if we can find/make 100 different pics but we need a certain amount to make it look nice
<kwwii> we definitely need to make the process of adding your own pic as easy as possible
<mpt> Users & Groups should have a "Take My Photo" button
<mpt> if a camera is detected :-)
<MacSlow> pitti, yes... 100 is currently the threshold value for the face-browser... but I picked that a bit randomly I admit since I've not tested performance of this case on a low-spec GPU (lowest thing I have available is a I915)
<kwwii> mpt: good idea
<ogra> mpt, shouldnt that be rather "about me" ?
<mpt> ogra, I'm looking forward to the day when they're one and the same
<ogra> yeah
<Keybuk> ok, we're drifting off the original topic here
<MacSlow> kwwii, I've added MeMaker and cheese as potential "means" for image-aquisation in addition to the stock image-set
<Keybuk> so appears we have a consensus that displaying the names is fine as long as the security concious can turn it off (even if that means losing the face browser altogether)
<ogra> mpt, that will be after the day where screenlocking, fusa and gdm are one app :)
<kwwii> MacSlow: cool
<MacSlow> kwwii, MeMaker creates abstract (south-park-ish) iamges from SVG graphics... cheese is a webcam-app like PhotoBooth
<pitti> will gdm, fusa, and gnome-screensaver be merged to something that provides all three use cases eventually?
 * ogra was planning to pull MeMaker into main as game for edubuntu anyway
<Keybuk> mvo: you have the next item - syncs and moms
<kwwii> MacSlow: yeah, I've heard of cheese before, never MeMaker though
<ogra> pitti, wouldnt that be cool ?
<MacSlow> ogra, cool be my guest :)
<pitti> absolutely
<mvo> Keybuk: yeah, it got discussed on the mailinglist already a bit
<mvo> Sometimes it take some time for a sync-from-debian request to get
<mvo>    processed. The relevant package still appears in MoM even when the
<mvo>    bug is filed and its possible that some work gets duplicated
<mvo>    when people do not check the bugpage first and look at the open
<mvo>    merge. Maybe we could teach MoM about requested syncs? Or get
<mvo>    some limited archive-admin power to do syncs? The more patches we
<mvo>    forward the more often we will want syncs instead of merges.
 * pitti points out that he has a script to sync packages yourself
<MacSlow> kwwii, ttps://edge.launchpad.net/memaker
<pitti> when handled with care, it should be absolutely ok
<mvo> it seems like a good option is to teach MoM about pending sync requests
<pitti> http://people.ubuntu.com/~pitti/scripts/syncpackage
<mvo> pitti: oh? isn't that something that requires archive-admin power?
<pitti> my main concerns are:
<pitti> - we lose the papertrail for bugs
<Keybuk> mvo: is there any easy way to tell?
<pitti> - we lose peer review
<pitti> mvo: no, it's just a normal upload
<Keybuk> mvo: do you have a url listing sync requests?
<Hobbsee> mvo: only that it signs with your key, rather than the installer key
<pitti> https://edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-archive/+subscribedbugs?field.searchtext=sync
<mvo> Keybuk: just the heuristics, open bug with sync and debian + archive-admin is subscribed
<pitti> ^ list
<pitti> mvo: that's in fact how a sync bug needs to look like
<pitti> mvo: you just need archive admin power to use sync-source.py on drescher
<pitti> but in the end this does nothing else than my script, with just some additional sanity checks
<mvo> aha, I see.
<Keybuk> hmm
<Keybuk> how do I turn that into a feeds URL?
<pitti> so it's not so much a technical issue, more a question of which kind of documentation we want for syncs we did in the past
<pitti> Keybuk: isn't that a LP feature they are already working on?
<mpt> Keybuk, the answer is "not yet"
<Keybuk> oh
<mvo> my only concern is duplication of work when people look at MoM output and think that this is a open merge when in facts its already dealt with
<Keybuk> can probably beautiful soup that table
<mpt> The eventual answer will be "click the orange button in the URL bar"
<seb128> mvo: merges have a name next to them
<Keybuk> I'll add it to MoM about the time I fix the most recent fuckage :p
<pitti> mvo: I dont' think that's a big problem, though; if you grab someone else's merge, you should contact him first anyway
<mvo> seb128: and that name is often e.g. Ian Jackson (so unclaimed by default)
<Hobbsee> mpt: \o/
<seb128> mvo: usually it's good practice to tell to whoever is assigned that you will do it ;-)
<pitti> mvo: good point about that
<seb128> right
<mvo> seb128: see above, there are some people where it does matter
<pitti> mvo: so you're going to merge dpkg? *hug*
<seb128> I've no conflicted yet with anybody
<seb128> I don't think it happens that often
<mvo> pitti: I did everything else from ian list ...
<Keybuk> ok
<Keybuk> did I miss any other agenda items?
<pitti> mvo: *more hugs*
<mvo> if everybody thinks its not a issue, I will shut up :)
<seb128> mvo: well, I don't say it never happens but I don't think we got many conflicts
<seb128> who here duplicated work on merges this cycle?
<Keybuk> mvo: even if not, it's not that difficult to add
<seb128> (just curious)
<MacSlow> not me
<Hobbsee> seb128: it's more common in universe.
<MacSlow> :)
<Keybuk> I can make it hide table rows, or have a different table
<Hobbsee> so universe would appreciate it, at least.
<seb128> Hobbsee: for universe you reinvented the wheel anyway and have a comment thingy ;-)
<mvo> Keybuk: maybe just a small comment (just like currently the uploaders) and a differnt color?
<seb128> but right
<mvo> possible with link?
<seb128> having a such feature would be nice
<Hobbsee> seb128: some of them did, but i tend to prefer mom :P
<Keybuk> mvo: I have mad ajax idea for submitting comments <g>
<mvo> heh :)
<mvo> web 2.0!
<seb128> web 3!
<Hobbsee> web 42!
 * MacSlow eyes bleed
<pitti> mine too, I just looked at our dpkg delta
<Keybuk> ok
<Keybuk> any other agenda items?
<seb128> pitti: dpkg is clearly a task for Keybuk ;-)
<seb128> not an item
<pitti> I'm sure he'll jump for joy
<Keybuk> hmm? :)
<seb128> bug I want to point https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/PatchTaggingGuidelines
<seb128> from now desktop packages expect proper tagging
<seb128> and patches must be sent upstream
<seb128> s/bug/but
<Keybuk> seb128: could you add an example of a patch-with-a-comment to that?
<Keybuk> do you mean just placing the text above the patch?
<Keybuk> e.g.
<Keybuk> Ubuntu: ...
<Keybuk> diff -r ...
<MacSlow> seb128, does that include also the work from last cycle?
<seb128> Keybuk: could you make merges.ubuntu.com/extracted list the debian/ubuntu-applied-patches directory also if there is one?
<seb128> Keybuk: ok, will do
<MacSlow> seb128, I know vuntz waits for my cleaned up patches anyway
<pitti> seb128: maybe we should generally use # Tag:
<pitti> to use the exact same syntax for dpatches
<seb128> MacSlow: no need to modify everything right now, but tagging patches on the way when you do a merge or an update would be nice
<seb128> and new patches should be tagged
<Keybuk> seb128: what's in that directory?
<pitti> Keybuk: it's only used for packages without a patch system; the broken-out patches
<seb128> Keybuk: a copy of the diff we apply when the package use no patch system
<Keybuk> ah, cool
<Keybuk> yes, added to todo
<seb128> thanks
<Keybuk> so people should
<Keybuk>  * add tags for all new patches
<Keybuk>  * add tags when merging or updating a source package for any existing patches
<pitti>  * submit them upstream along the way
<seb128> right
<Keybuk> oh, and yes, submit them upstream
<Keybuk> forgot the most important bit :-)
<Keybuk> and to debian, if relevant
 * pitti is happy that all our remaining sudo patches except the ~/.sudo-successful tag one were accepted upstream
<Keybuk> when is sudo going to use policykit? :p
<seb128> Keybuk: if we want to make list of patches to forward, etc, would it make sense to do that in patches.ubuntu.com? It's already dealing with the datas
<pitti> just at the moment when we switch everything to PK :)
<pitti> Keybuk: pk_0wn_me_priv to allow everything :)
<pitti> "get me a root shell over dbus", yay
<Keybuk> org.2600.h4x0r.RootShell ()
<Keybuk> seb128: yeah, if tags are added consistently in patches, then I can extract that information and generate html from it
<Keybuk> which is why I asked for an example on the wiki page, so I can make regexp :p
<seb128> Keybuk: excellent ;-)
<Keybuk> ok
<Keybuk> any other business?
<MacSlow> not from my side
<Keybuk> ok, then; end of meeting (with 3 min to go)
 * mvo waves
<seb128> Keybuk: thanks
<kwwii> thanks everyone
<pitti> thanks everyone
 * MacSlow goes back to mockup-drawing
 * kwwii goes back to spec'ing
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 23 Nov 12:00 UTC: MOTU meeting | 29 Nov 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-11-23
<Hobbsee> @schedule sydney
<ubotu> Schedule for Australia/Sydney: 23 Nov 23:00: MOTU meeting | 30 Nov 01:00: Desktop Team Development
<MacSlow> Greetings everybody!
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: MOTU meeting Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 29 Nov 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development
<persia> Erm.  Is ubotu's clock fast, or is mine slow?
<dholbach> persia: I think it announces the next meeting 10 minutes beforehand
<persia> Ah.  It's intentional then.  OK.
 * persia prepares notes
<dholbach> who takes notes?
<TheMuso> I'd say I would do it, but, I think I've done it enough.
<persia> dholbach: I always make notes when I'm presenting a topic, or are you asking about minutes?
<TheMuso> FOr a while at least.
<dholbach> I meant minutes
<dholbach> TheMuso: thanks a lot for doing that the last 3456765434567 times
<TheMuso> dholbach: lol np. I just think its a good experience for others.
<dholbach> yeah, I agree
<persia> I'll take minutes if nobody else wants them, but as I'm presenting a topic, I'm not sure there isn't a conflict of interest
<TheMuso> However, I am happy to send out reminders, as they didn't happen this time around.
<TheMuso> persia: Lets see how many turn up.
<dholbach> thanks TheMuso
<dholbach> persia: I think that's fine
<persia> Was I supposed to send announcements this time?  Sorry :)
<persia> s/:)/:(/
<TheMuso> persia: I don't know. Were you
 * persia has forgotten
<TheMuso> Never mind.
<\sh> morning all
<sladen_> T-3
<sistpoty|work> hi
<Lutin> morning
<\sh> just grabbing a coffee
<Lutin> :x
<Lutin> oops
<Hobbsee> oh, there's a MOTU meeting.
<dholbach> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 12:00. The chair is dholbach.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<dholbach> Welcome everybody to another MOTU Meeting!
<dholbach> We have an agenda at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Meetings
<dholbach> and we have persia and pitti (just pinged him) presenting the first item on it
<pitti> hi
<dholbach> Updates to the universe SRU policy. See TB review from [WWW] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2007-November/024776.html
<persia> The Technical Board recently discussed the SRU policy for Universe, due to questions on the part of the archive administrators.  The results were published to the ubuntu-devel mailing list, and a decision was requested from MOTU.  I've raised this item to the agenda for discussion and selection between the two choices presented by the technical board.
<persia> [LINK] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2007-November/024776.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2007-November/024776.html
<persia> After informal discussion in various media, I'd like to encourage the restoration of ~motu-sru as an approval body.  With sufficient staffing, I believe that a single ACK should not be a significant delay.
<persia> Further, I'd like to propose that the members of ~motu-sru be directly appointed by the MOTU Council, and that any issues with the membership of the team be raised to MC for dispute resolution.
<persia> Additionally, I'd like to request review of the policy by the newly restored ~motu-sru, with an eye towards explaining any variation from main.
 * persia is done flooding
<TheMuso> heh
<TheMuso> No argument from me.
<TheMuso> Sounds pretty clear cut.
<sistpoty|work> +1 on all points from me :)
<dholbach> What about the following plan? The MC will ask for people to join ~motu-sru and appoint say 4 members among them.
<soren> Someone suggested at some point that the UVF team and the SRU team should be the same.
<persia> dholbach: That sounds good to me: I'm not concerned with how MC appoints, I just don't think we should vote for wisdom.
<pitti> yeah, both is about enforcing freeze policies and review
<dholbach> Having experienced this to be a bottle-neck and it not being easy to find those people, we could still fallback to 2b to decide and move forward.
<sistpoty|work> dholbach: maybe rather 5 ppl?
<persia> soren: I'm not sure about that: that might mean a lot of work after FF
<\sh> I want to see people in the SRU team, who knows very well, that it's vital that those updates are really fixing bugs and not introducing strange new behaviours to our software
<pitti> really, two or three people should be enough
<dholbach> sistpoty|work: works for me... my main point is trying to avoid the situation where we don't get the team staffed and the process is stalling
<pitti> NB that we don't want a lot of SRUs in the first place
<persia> pitti: Not with current MOTU activity: we need volume to ensure we don't block on missing people.
 * \sh wonders who pushed azeureus through -updates yesterday with a backports number
<sistpoty|work> dholbach: sure, let's just say 5 is ideal, but the team could start working with less members as well ;)
 * persia agrees with sistpoty
<dholbach> Ok.
<\sh> +1 for sistpoty|work
<dholbach> [ACTION] dholbach to send out request for people interested in ~motu-sru.
<MootBot> ACTION received:  dholbach to send out request for people interested in ~motu-sru.
<dholbach> thanks
<pitti> \sh: that was sort of a special case; it was tested in backports, and since it is completely broken in feisty we copied it to -updates
<pitti> \sh: https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/azureus/+bug/57875
<persia> So, does the adoption of this require further discussion, or should it be AGREED ?
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 57875 in azureus "Azureus hangs or crashes showing splash screen at start" [High,Fix released]
<sistpoty|work> pitti, soren: not too sure if having uvf team the same as sru team, as the review process is different (single patches vs. diffstats), shrug
<TheMuso> I don't think further discussion is needed.
<TheMuso> c/
<\sh> pitti, well, on gutsy it was just crashing when opening the torrent link tab...not at the splash
<soren> sistpoty|work: I'd *really* like to change the policy about UVF this time, too, actually. diffstats mean *nothing* to me.
<\sh> pitti, anyways...not important here ,-)
<pitti> sistpoty|work: really? people read diffstats? what's the purpose of that?
<pitti> soren++
<dholbach> pitti: to get an idea of how big the changes are, to see if they are only doc/ changes, etc
<persia> soren: pitti: It's one of the ways to identify the volume of change.
<soren> pitti: That's the UVF policy. It says to submit diffstat's. Go figure.
<sistpoty|work> pitti: don't know... have never been a member of motu-uvf
<soren> persia: I can make completely crackful patches in just one line and really good patches in 10000 lines.
<pitti> persia: right, but you still need to review the actual changes, and filterdiff'ing the debdiff is more useful IMHO
<dholbach> let's separate the uvf discussion from the current ont for now
<pitti> right, sorry
<persia> pitti: I use both, but yes.
<Lutin> dholbach: on the other hand, you can break APIs with tiny changes (speaking about the diffstat size)
<soren> dholbach: Right, sorry.
<dholbach> Lutin: sure
<dholbach> ok, shall we discuss merging the two teams now?
<pitti> ok, seems there is no real discussion about the new SRU policy?
<persia> dholbach: Could we have a MootBot AGREED on the policy choice before discussing team merge?
<dholbach> the SRU policy decision seems to be fine as it is, I just hope we get the team together quickly
<sistpoty|work> persia: +1
<dholbach> [AGREED] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2007-November/024776.html proposed change (2a)
<MootBot> AGREED received:  https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2007-November/024776.html proposed change (2a)
<dholbach> [TOPIC] Shall we merge ~motu-sru and ~motu-uvf?
<MootBot> New Topic:  Shall we merge ~motu-sru and ~motu-uvf?
<dholbach> Opinions?
<sistpoty|work> I'd rather not do this...
<persia> I'll argue against this: they are different tests of suitability, and it makes for a possible high volume of review (even for a high reject rate) between FF and release.
<TheMuso> Having never been on either team, I can't speak for the workload, but I think it may make sense.
<DktrKranz> I think they focus on two separate worlds
<DktrKranz> so, merge them could not be a good choice, IMHO
<dholbach> "it's all about patches..."
<dholbach> ;-)
<\sh> there is a difference between UVF and SRU at distro level....SRUs are more difficult to decide, so we need people who know what they are doing...UVF for universe is just a bit more harmless
<soren> The skillset required is pretty much the same: Evaluate proposed changes based on policies for the given point in the release cycle, but if it's going to be a blocker for finding volunteers, it's not that important to me.
<TheMuso> But I'm willing to defer to those with more experience.
<persia> soren: The skillset is the same, but the criteria are different.
<soren> persia: Sure.
<dholbach> but I agree, it might make sense to keep them separate as the workflow is different and it might turn out to be a bottleneck
<sistpoty|work> I'd rather have these teams separated, because it's more clear then what bugs are sru bugs and what uvf bugs
<\sh> soren, one difference is there: with UVF exceptions you don't break older releases
<soren> \sh: I know, I know.
<dholbach> ok, let's keep them different for now then
<persia> If someone wants to do both, I don't see a problem with them being on two teams, I just don't want to confuse things.
<dholbach> [AGREED] ~motu-sru and ~motu-uvf will be kept separate for now.
<MootBot> AGREED received:  ~motu-sru and ~motu-uvf will be kept separate for now.
<sistpoty|work> persia: yes
<Hobbsee> if -uvf and -sru get merged, i'm not being a part of -uvf
<persia> Hobbsee: They won't be: see above :)
<dholbach> [TOPIC] Security Fixes for Universe (StephanHermann)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Security Fixes for Universe (StephanHermann)
<pitti> dholbach: both teams can still share members, after all
<\sh> yay
<dholbach> \sh: your stage
<\sh> it's me :)
<dholbach> pitti: exactly
<Hobbsee> persia: i was lagged.  compiz crashed :)
<dholbach> more emblems! :)
<pitti> but separating the roles might be beneficial indeed, yes
 * persia likes emblems
<persia> Anyway:  \sh?
<soren> s/emblems/pieces of flair/
 * sistpoty|work looks innocent about the motu-swat icon *g*
<\sh> ok, what we need are some more people doing also the non loved security fixes for universe especially for our LTS release (speak dapper) and also for older releases like feisty  and gutsy
<\sh> when I saw the list of CVEs for universe I was surprised to see more SRUs without really serious bug fixes like vulnerabilities
<dholbach> \sh: is there a list of things that need doing?
<persia> \sh: Are you recruiting now, or is there something else for discussion?
<dholbach> \sh: is there some documentation for those tasks?
<\sh> persia, it's something for discussion
<\sh> dholbach, 1) kees has a list of CVEs which are still not fixed
<dholbach> \sh: is this list publically available?
<\sh> dholbach, 2) well it's most likley source work
<sistpoty|work> \sh: in the past, the security policy was a bit unclear to me, as at least in some cases fixes more than to the actual security fix were accepted. is this still the case?
<\sh> dholbach, sure...people.ubuntu.com/~kees/ubuntu-cve
<dholbach> \sh: would it help to have a section on http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/TODO with a link and what's expected of people interested in doing this?
<soren> \sh: 404
<dholbach> I'm happy to pimp that section and inform people about it
<\sh> soren: moment
 * Fujitsu arrives.
<\sh> soren, damn..it's deleted :(
<Fujitsu> sistpoty|work: As far as I know that's forbidden and keescook will eat you alive if you try.
<Fujitsu> For good reason.
<\sh> dholbach, would be nice..I'll provide some infos what to do...mostly it's nothing for starters
<dholbach> also maybe it'd help to have public meetings with all the security folks to invite new people and assign tasks
<sistpoty|work> Fujitsu: ok, great
<DktrKranz> \sh, what about http://people.ubuntu.com/~pitti/ubuntu-cve/ ?
<Fujitsu> DktrKranz: That's the CVE tracker spoken of.
<\sh> DktrKranz, it's old and not maintained anymore...kees took over
<pitti> I'm not sure whether this is still relevant
<DktrKranz> ah, ok
<pitti> right
<sistpoty|work> is http://launchpad.net/~motu-swat/+subscribedbugs current as well?
<\sh> dholbach, would be cool...I'll provide some infos about it
 * pitti makes a note to talk about this with Kees and remove it if appropriate
<dholbach> [ACTION] \sh to add information about security tasks on MOTU/TODO page
<MootBot> ACTION received:  \sh to add information about security tasks on MOTU/TODO page
<Fujitsu> Oops, the *branch* in ~pitti is right, the other stuff isn't.
<kraut> moin
<\sh> sistpoty|work, yepp...but most actual is the list of our main security team...because all of the sec bugs are listed there
<dholbach> \sh: do you think it'd make sense to invite people who are interested to a meeting and discuss the topic there?
<\sh> Fujitsu, it's not up2date afaik
<Fujitsu> \sh: The branch is.
<sistpoty|work> \sh: ah... could we auto-import bugs from that list somehow to lp?
<sistpoty|work> (or wouldn't make that sense)
<persia> I think kees was planning a new interface in the next week or so
<soren> \sh: How does this work? You submit debdiffs for the security team to look at, and if it's good, they upload?
<\sh> soren, this is one step...
<persia> sistpoty|work: Not everything applies: it requires human intelligence to determine the right set of releases against which to file the bug.
<\sh> soren, you have to follow the Security Update rules first, you need to know where to grab the patches etc.
<\sh> soren, our security team (named keescook and jdstrand) will review those patches and publishing them to our archives
<soren> \sh: Of course. I'm just interested in the technical part of it.
<\sh> (right now they are not publicly announced)
<soren> \sh: Alright.
<dholbach> thanks \sh for documenting this - I guess that's going to be a good first step - what about meetings to invite new people?
<\sh> dholbach, sure..we can do that
<persia> Do we need meetings?  I'd rather see recruiting mail & -classroom sessions on the workflow, personally.
<dholbach> \sh: great - if you could collect some ideas about the meeting, I'm happy to announce to various places
<dholbach> persia: some people might want to ask questions, I found meetings a good opportunity to meet and talk to those people
<\sh> dholbach, will do
 * persia defers, but hopes this does not cause a recruiting delay
<\sh> as a note why I wanted to raise this issue
<dholbach> [ACTION] \sh and dholbach to work on organising a meeting for people interested in security tasks
<MootBot> ACTION received:  \sh and dholbach to work on organising a meeting for people interested in security tasks
<\sh> I think it's important to our users and audience to show that we also take care about the security of the community driven archive
<dholbach> absolutely
<dholbach> thanks \sh for bringing this up
<\sh> thanks to you for your time :)
<sistpoty|work> \sh: yes, and it's great to see the team spamming my inbox lately :)
<dholbach> :)
<dholbach> [TOPIC] Other Business
<MootBot> New Topic:  Other Business
<\sh> sistpoty|work, you are welcome :)
<dholbach> going once... :)
 * Fujitsu notes he has a few more to do tomorrow.
<\sh> Fujitsu, wordpress
<dholbach> twice
<dholbach> no other business?
<Fujitsu> \sh: That's more than a few (ie. 42)
 * persia has a quick one
<dholbach> persia: fire away
<persia> I just want to confirm that nobody has any further planned followup to the ML threads about New Upstream Version reviews and REVU guidelines before I update the wiki.
<sladen> hard to confirm an open-ended question.  But I haven't...
<\sh> Fujitsu, yeah, a new one came yesterday or the day before ,-)
<persia> sladen: good point.
<Fujitsu> \sh: 6301 or so, yeah. What fun.
<dholbach> persia: seems that nobody in #ubuntu-meeting does :)
<persia> Thanks.  I'll go ahead, as most of the parties with previous concerns appear to be present :)
<dholbach> anything else before we move on?
<dholbach> [TOPIC] agree on date and time of next meeting
<MootBot> New Topic:  agree on date and time of next meeting
 * persia proposes 20:00 UTC 7th Dec 2007
 * TheMuso can do that.
 * DktrKranz too
 * Fujitsu can probably.
 * soren can't.
 * sistpoty|work will try but not promise
<persia> We're traditionally skipped the 04:00 UTC in the rotation.  Is anyone a big fan of that time?
 * dholbach isn't :)
<soren> me neither
<TheMuso> I am sorta, but understand that it doesn't suit most people in the states and nobody in Europe.
<sistpoty|work> I guess it's hard to find fans for the 04:00 UTC among people currently present ;)
<dholbach> at some stage we should discuss that on the list or have a wiki table with the timezones everybody lives in
<\sh> hmm...at 13 UTC is motu faq session, right?
<persia> Actually, I thought it would be good for people in the Americas, as attendance at the other times seems low, but perhaps it's a demographic issue as to who participates in meetings.
<persia> dholbach: Last time we did that, we ended up not having a MOTU meeting for a month.
<dholbach> I think it's fine for us to stick to the time suggested, but raise the topic in a different medium than IRC :)
<sistpoty|work> make it so
<persia> sistpoty|work: There weren't any fans at the last 20:00 session either.  I think 04:00 fans just don't come to meetings.
<dholbach> alright, let's do 20:00 then
<Fujitsu> Are there any 04:00 fans?
<sistpoty|work> persia: hehe
<dholbach> [AGREED] Next meeting: 20:00 UTC 7th Dec 2007
<MootBot> AGREED received:  Next meeting: 20:00 UTC 7th Dec 2007
<TheMuso> Fujitsu: I am, but understand why its not accepted by others.
 * DktrKranz usually sleeps at 04:00
<TheMuso> My point exactly.
<dholbach> [ACTION] dholbach to think about MOTU timezones table
<MootBot> ACTION received:  dholbach to think about MOTU timezones table
<dholbach> [ACTION] agree on date and time of next REVU DAY
<MootBot> ACTION received:  agree on date and time of next REVU DAY
 * persia finds 04:00 convenient, but doesn't have issues with the other times.
<TheMuso> REVU days == Mondays?
<dholbach> shall we remove that action item from the agenda? we seem to stick to mondays anyway
 * persia proposes 26 November and 3 December
<\sh> YAY
<Fujitsu> persia: And very subsequent Monday until FF?
<Fujitsu> +e
<\sh> I just got a mail that I have a day for test working for United Internet ,-)
<persia> I'm happy to remove it from the agenda: it's been Mondays for the past six months or so (since we added it to the agenda)
<persia> Fujitsu: Sounds good to me.
<dholbach> persia: great thanks
<dholbach> same goes for "agree on date and time of MOTU Q&A sessions"
<TheMuso> I think its a day that all hopefuls knwo that will get a chance at having their work looked at.
<dholbach> it's Q&A Friday!
<dholbach> ok, looks like we're through our agenda
<persia> Sure.  I think both of those got added to the agenda because we weren't scheduling them enough.  If we do every Monday and Friday, we should be good.
<dholbach> persia: great
<dholbach> thanks a lot everybody!
<dholbach> adjourned
<TheMuso> np
<sistpoty|work> thanks dholbach for hosting
<dholbach> anytime :)
<sistpoty|work> (alter! *g*)
<persia> (except 04:00 UTC) :)
<dholbach> yeah :)
<dholbach> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 12:33.
<dholbach> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Headers has all the "next ... is going to be at ..." headers
<persia> dholbach: Shall we just call it Mondays for REVU, and Friday, 13:00 UTC for Q&A static then?
<dholbach> persia: that sounds great
<dholbach> we can still change it if necessary
<dholbach> http://kryten.incognitus.net/mootbot/meetings/ubuntu-meeting.20071123_1200.html
<persia> dholbach: Or do you want to keep it updated with the actual next one (I don't mind updating for REVU, but I might forget occasionally)
<dholbach> no, I think a static text is OK
 * persia edits
 * dholbach hugs super-persia
<persia> Do we have a next scheduled Packaging 101?
<persia> Err.  Ignore that.
<pitti> thanks
 * sistpoty|work needs to resume working
<sistpoty|work> cya
<dholbach> bye sistpoty|work :)
<Hobbsee> oh, for those who are still here...
<Hobbsee> there's a ppa101 session on next week - if you're interested in learning about it, or being involved in it, watch the usual mailing lists for news
<dholbach> good point - we should pimp those sessions more
<persia> Hobbsee: You could add it to the headers if you like: I'm done with edits.
<Hobbsee> persia: this is true
<effie_jayx> in 5 minutes
<effie_jayx> huats,  hello
<huats> hey effie_jayx
<huats> effie_jayx: so how is it going ?
<effie_jayx> huats,  well I feel a little eager to get to work but the internet is so unreliable in this conference
<effie_jayx> I checked out bugs yesterday
<effie_jayx> basically learning to find bugs that are related to problems in packages... and not just support requests
<effie_jayx> and also learning what packages are affected by those bugs
<huats> ok
<effie_jayx> then I will be able to see if the new version of the package actually provides a fix for that bug
<huats> great
<huats> playing with bugs is COMPULSORY since we have to fix them :)
<effie_jayx> dholbach,  ping
<dholbach> effie_jayx: pong
<effie_jayx> dholbach,  is it time yet?
<dholbach> effie_jayx: #ubuntu-classroom
<effie_jayx> oh
<effie_jayx> doh
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 29 Nov 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-11-24
<sarahl> who maintains the log_ssl pkg?
<sarahl> i think it needs updating
<sarahl> log_sql
<somerville32> jono, Hey
<jono> hey somerville32
<somerville32> jono, Do you have a few minutes to chat?
<jono> somerville32: sure
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-11-17
<stgraber> @schedule Montreal
<ubottu> Schedule for America/Montreal: 17 Nov 21:00: Americas Regional Board | 18 Nov 06:00: Community Council | 18 Nov 11:00: Server Team | 18 Nov 12:00: Kernel Team | 19 Nov 12:00: QA Team | 19 Nov 13:00: Platform Team
<TiMiDo> hey anyone in here?
<RainCT> TiMiDo: yes?
<TiMiDo> RainCT, today is the americas meeting ?
<TiMiDo> or the 18th?
<RainCT> TiMiDo: see the topic, 18 Nov 02:00: Americas  Regional Board
<RainCT> so, tomorrow
<beuno> actually, in 5 hours in half or so?
<TiMiDo> hmmm
<TiMiDo> yeah it was for today
<TiMiDo> That's weird
<beuno> well, timezones just get that much more confusing when you talk about times close to midnight  :)
<TiMiDo> well.
<effie_jayx> today
<TiMiDo> i hope lol =)
<effie_jayx> it is today
<TiMiDo> I've been waiting for it.
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-11-18
<yn1v> fitoria: Hello man!
<fitoria> yn1v: what's up!
<yn1v> fitoria; r you having a nervous break down ?
<fitoria> :P
<yn1v> I am her for you !
<yn1v> ha ha here no her
<fitoria> great :P
<n0rman> woot?
 * Hobbsee suggests that here is not the place.
<pinolillo> I have a problem with ubuntu 8,04, somebody of Nicaragua or that speaks Spanish so that it helps me please.
<Sp4rKy> pinolillo: #ubuntu or  #ubuntu-es for support please
<pinolillo> :)
<yn1v> pinolillo is getting plenty of attention at #ubuntu-ni right now!
<bobesponja> pinolillo: fitoria is from nicaragua :)
<pinolillo> Thank you very much to help me.
<effie_jayx> @now
<ubottu> Current time in Etc/UTC: November 18 2008, 00:56:25 - Next meeting: Americas Regional Board in 1 hour 3 minutes
<william> an hour 2 minutes to start
<TiMiDo> nice
<effie_jayx> exactly
<TiMiDo> @now
<ubottu> Current time in Etc/UTC: November 18 2008, 01:21:09 - Next meeting: Americas Regional Board in 38 minutes
<william> somebody has the list
<TiMiDo> list for?
<TiMiDo> william, the list for what?
<william> people who applied to be an ubuntu memeber
<william> member
<pedro_> william: is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/Americas
<william> thanks
<pedro_> you're welcome
<fitoria> soy 4to
<TiMiDo> I'm the Fifth person in line
<TiMiDo> ;X
<anakron> Hi all
<anakron> HI Brian Murray
<TiMiDo> hey anakron
<anakron> Hi Timido
<TiMiDo> What's up anakron
<anakron> mmm
<anakron> nothing really
<anakron> i must study now, but i think that it will be interesting
<anakron> so ill stay here some minutes
<TiMiDo> yeah just look around perhaps.
<TiMiDo> anakron, the meeting will be held in like 20 more minutes.
<TiMiDo> @now
<ubottu> Current time in Etc/UTC: November 18 2008, 01:30:17 - Next meeting: Americas Regional Board in 29 minutes
<anakron> im looking for mrooney, Timido, have you ever seen him?
<TiMiDo> not really anakron
<TiMiDo> anakron, he is online though so msg him
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Americas Regional Board Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 18 Nov 11:00: Community Council | 18 Nov 16:00: Server Team | 18 Nov 17:00: Kernel Team | 19 Nov 17:00: QA Team | 19 Nov 18:00: Platform Team
<bobesponja> @now
<ubottu> Current time in Etc/UTC: November 18 2008, 01:51:24 - Current meeting: Americas Regional Board
<cody-somerville> :]
<TiMiDo> =)
<alucardni> @now
<ubottu> Current time in Etc/UTC: November 18 2008, 01:54:47 - Current meeting: Americas Regional Board
<vor> heHATEme: Is that a cry for help?
<heHATEme> yep
<musikgoat> hi all!
<TiMiDo> hi musikgoat
<TiMiDo> Good Luck musikgoat =)
<alucardni> hi and good luck musikgoat :)
<musikgoat> thanks :-)  should I be expecting a test :-)
<musikgoat> hehe
<TiMiDo> no but an interview perhaps :X
<william> how much time left?
<musikgoat> that, i can handle better
<atoponce> everyone here?
<alucardni> hi atoponce
<TiMiDo> yeah i am here atoponce
<elkan76> me too!!
<Sajnox> I'm here, goodnight to everybody
<fitoria> yep
<alucardni> @now
<ubottu> Current time in Etc/UTC: November 18 2008, 02:00:32 - Current meeting: Americas Regional Board
<atoponce> time to get this show on the road
<TiMiDo> nice
<alucardni> nice
<effie_jayx> good evening all
<atoponce> just a reminder: we are going through https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/Americas in order
<musikgoat> i'm here as well atoponce, good evening
<vorian> hello
<TiMiDo> good evening effie_jayx
<vorian> +1
<alucardni> good evening effie_jayx
<leogg> good evening and good luck to everybody
<atoponce> please have a short statement summarizing your contributions to ubunt, a link to your wiki page, and launchpad profile
<TiMiDo> thank you so much leogg
<fitoria> good evening!
<william> good luck to all
<nellery> hi everyone and good luck to all :)
<atoponce> also, if anyone is here to rally those applying, step up at the appropriate time after their intro
<atoponce> the members of the council tonight are:
<atoponce> myself, effie_jayx, vorian, pleia2, cody-somerville and pedro_
 * vorian curtsies
<atoponce> so, with that, elkan76 you're up first
<elkan76> ok
<elkan76> Hi everybody!
<elkan76> https://launchpad.net/~elkan76
<elkan76> Well as you can see in my wiki page (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MauricioPennaloza), my name is Mauricio PeÃ±aloza, i'm a computer engineer and i use linux from 2004. From 2007 i worked actively on Ubuntu-cl my LOCoT.
<elkan76> Today in this community i'm the forum administrator (http://foros.ubuntu-cl.org) and a member of the LoCo council. I'm not good programming, but i have a  loooooooooooot of patience trying to teach to the people, and working in the stands of our community when we are invited to local fairs, i like talk too much to the people about Ubuntu, trying to demostrate how easy to use is Ubuntu. As you see on the wiki, recently i finish a big project for edi
<elkan76> And this is all my ubuntu-life (i don't talk about my blog because is horrible), but if you want to look it http://para-opinar.blogspot.com/
<vorian> what is your relationship to the cl.org forum?
<vorian> ah, administration
<elkan76> yeap
<effie_jayx> elkan76,  what recent events have you participated?
<effie_jayx> in
<vorian> elkan76: how do you folks handle difficult users (trolls and the like)?
<Hobbsee> shoot them!
<Hobbsee> oh, err...
<vorian> :o
<Hobbsee> ;)
<effie_jayx> elkan76, ?
<elkan76> well i participate on Encuentro Linux 2008, Freedom Software day, Open Minds 2008
<elkan76> and FLISol 2008
<effie_jayx> sounds great, participation was through the loCo team or shared oportunities with lugs?
<elkan76> Only with the LoCO
<elkan76> but if any LUG needs me here i am
<atoponce> elkan76: what would ubuntu membership mean for you?
<elkan76> Well, first more responsability, because it means that i really understand what Ubuntu means
<elkan76> and how far we can go if every people makes a real compromise with this OS
<atoponce> elkan76: what is your main focus? i see some translation work on launchpad, and loco work on your wiki.
<atoponce> elkan76: ?
<elkan76> I think that loco work, because translations is only a way to show the people how easy is work on free sf
<vorian> elkan76: I think you are fabulious! +1 from me!
<elkan76> thanks
<pleia2> well done elkan76
<pleia2> +1
<atoponce> +1 here as well
<effie_jayx> +1 from me
<pedro_> +1 from here too
<elkan76> many thanks
<vorian> cody-somerville?
<cody-somerville> +1
<vorian> \o/
<vorian> welcome aboard elkan76
<atoponce> elkan76: congrats! welcome aboard
<pleia2> congrats elkan76 :) welcome
<pedro_> congratulations elkan76, welcome aboard!
<effie_jayx> elkan76, bienvenido
<atoponce> is andres here?
<fitoria> felicidades! elkan76!!!
<leogg> congrats elkan76
<alucardni> felicidades elkan76
<TiMiDo> buena compare elkan76 te felicito paisano jajaja
<n0rman> bien hecho elkan76 :)
<fitoria> !ping
<Sajnox> congrats !!
<ubottu> ping yourself ;-) really the diodes all down my left side are sore
<pinolillo> felicidades prix
<atoponce> anyone know about andres mujica?
<jimbodoors> elkan76, felicidades
<alucardni> atoponce: noup
<atoponce> ok. alucardni, you're next
<william> felicidades elkan
<alucardni> thanks atoponce
<alucardni> Hi everyone, I'm JosÃ© Ernesto DÃ¡vila Pantoja (alucardni). I'm from Corinto, Nicaragua. My first contact with GNU/Linux was about 8 years ago when I was in college, since there I've used several distros such as: Red Hat 7.2, 7.3, 8 and 9; Mandrake 9.1; Debian Woody r3.0 and adopted Ubuntu as my only distro since Warty.
<alucardni> I've been working with the Nicaraguan LoCo Team since the very begining to make FOSS be adopted specially by non-geek users. Why am I on FOSS movement? 'Cause I identify myself with the filosophy of FOSS. 'Cause I like it :) and 'Cause it's great to know that your can help others to improve their skills using FOSS even more when you get feedback such as this (https://answers.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/yelp/+question/50
<alucardni> my LP: https://launchpad.net/~josernestodavila and my Wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Josernesto
<effie_jayx> alucardni, what best describes your participation in the Ubuntu project ?
<leogg> I want to cheer for alucardni. He organised our very first event as a LoCo Team in March 2007 and since then he has worked non-stop for the Nicaraguan community. He's a true leader and very enthusiastic about Ubuntu and FOSS.
<alucardni> effie_jayx: my comitment to the community,
<alucardni> effie_jayx: sometimes I've to travel for 5 hours to participate in an event
<cody-somerville> alucardni, to which community? The FOSS Community or the Ubuntu community?
<atoponce> leogg: thx
<alucardni> cody-somerville: both
<cody-somerville> alucardni, how have you contributed to the Ubuntu project?
<pedro_> alucardni: with which other communities of Central America have you been working ? and how's the relationship with those?
<alucardni> cody-somerville: as you can see on my LP I've been giving support, and making translations for ubuntu
<alucardni> pedro_: recently I was in Guatemala in a event with the Guatemalan Team
<alucardni> and we share experiences with the salvadorian team as well
<alucardni> and right now we are
<effie_jayx> alucardni, What kidn of participation do you engage in these events?
<pedro_> alucardni: do you have any photos online we can see or a link to that events?
<alucardni> effie_jayx: part of the staff, giving talks
<alucardni> and workshops
<n0rman> I want to support what leogg said, alucardni is one of the key person for the FOSS community in our country.
<alucardni> pedro_: I've but I'll need sometime to get the links posted here
<pedro_> alucardni: ok
<fitoria> let me help alucardni here a photo http://picasaweb.google.com/linuxtour/SFDNicaragua2008#5248161318396789826
<alucardni> thanks fitoria
<vorian> n0rman: but this is for Ubuntu membership, not FOSS membership
<fitoria> another pic http://picasaweb.google.com/linuxtour/SFDNicaragua2008#5248161305795145874
<william> i'm a witnes of alurcardni's work in the comunity, in every event he is at there giving suppport answering, solving issues, and never gives up
<effie_jayx> alucardni,  what kind of participation do you do for Ubuntu in the spanish community?
<fitoria> another pic http://picasaweb.google.com/linuxtour/LinuxTour2008#5194142016866037282
<pedro_> fitoria: thanks for the links
<alucardni> effie_jayx: I'm part of the CC of the Nicaraguan LoCo Team
<effie_jayx> s/spanish community/ spanish-speaking community
<effie_jayx> allee,  do you share with other spanish speaking LoCo's or the ubuntu-es community?
<alucardni> I've been working on translating the ubuntu package desciption
<alucardni> effie_jayx: and as I said before, I've share some experiences with other centralamerican teams
<effie_jayx> guatemala, right
<effie_jayx> thanks
<alucardni> effie_jayx: and salvador
<atoponce> alucardni: for me, i'm going to have to say that i would like to see more long term ubuntu-specific contributions. i see lots of general gnu/linux stuff, which is good, but the ubuntu stuff is a but young still
<atoponce> keep translating. keep promoting ubuntu. keep holding meetings. keep it documented on your wiki, and come back for reapproval
<leogg> atoponce: alucardni is member of the Ubuntu-ni community council - besides the fact that he is one of the founders
<leogg> of our LoCo Team
<leogg> In my opinion his work is very Ubuntu specific
<effie_jayx> leogg, agreed, but the council needs to see more, and maybe we are not seeing enough in what he has brought today
<atoponce> it's not documented well, which is what i need to base my vote on. i would like to see more of a sustained contribution
<william> i support what leogg says, he's a co-founder, making translations, conferences, giving classes
<atoponce> fitoria: you're up
<fitoria> ok
<fitoria> My name is Adolfo J. Fitoria. I'm from Nicaragua. Joined Ubuntu Nicaragua LoCo in June 2007. I am part of ubuntu-ni Community Council, promoting Ubuntu and FLOSS filosophy in many events and doing some coding too. Wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Fitoria LP: https://launchpad.net/~aj-fitoria
<fitoria> if you want link to more photos just ask
<leogg> I want to cheer for Fitoria as well. He's a talented young man who has giving a lot to this community. We're very proud and thankful with Fitoria and I hope to see him becoming a MOTU pretty soon.
<vorian> fitoria: what kind of MOTU stuff have you been working on?
<fitoria> vorian: by the moment just reading a lot :P
<william> i want to add, that fitoria is one of the most active members of LOCO team here, he has promoved many events, as also work in them, becoming one of the leader in the comunnity
<fitoria> I'm starting....
<vorian> like what?  :)
<vorian> oh, excellent
<vorian> make sure you come by #ubuntu-motu and ask lots of questions :)
<fitoria> great info :)
<vorian> fitoria: what's the hardest part of your LoCo?
<fitoria> I think that
<atoponce> fitoria: have you been involved with ubuntu in other ways? forums maybe?
<fitoria> the hardest part is to make new members but new dedicated members
<fitoria> atoponce: not in forums just mainling list, irc, personal support
<fitoria> in events
<vorian> fitoria: yes, the universal LoCo problem.  Any tricks you guys use to help people stay active?
<fitoria> installfest, helping people with their issues
<fitoria> vorian: constant motivation
<fitoria> and to make fun stuff to
<fitoria> too*
<fitoria> help to share knowledge between us
<effie_jayx> fitoria,  one thing we have been discussing is the participation between distro communities in nicaragua
<effie_jayx> could you elaborate a bit on it
<fitoria> o great
<fitoria> here in nicaragua
<fitoria> we are very close between distros
<fitoria> we work pretty close
<fitoria> in big events, helping each other in small events also
<fitoria> it really amazing
<fitoria> because of ubuntu-ni's effort other lugs have born
<fitoria> and they have a pretty strong communitary base too
<william> here in Nicaragua there are 5 main distros, Ubuntu, Suse, Debian, Fedora and Mandriva, whoever makes an event, fitoria is there helping in anything he can
<bobesponja> william: I think those five distros are the majority in every country =)
<atoponce> fitoria: we would also like to see some more long term ubuntu-specific contributions. some ideas for you, might be more translations, and picking up a small motu project, with the help of the motu team
<effie_jayx> fitoria, we appreciate the time, the council would like to see you mature you participation in the Ubuntu Community as a whole, promoting in a local team is a good fundation, however we would like to see more work in other areas in the Ubuntu Community as a whole, maybe helping out in the Spanish Speaking community more. we surelly do need the help
<effie_jayx> I believe if this were reaproval for the Nicaragua LoCo team you would have no prblem,
<atoponce> ok. TiMiDo, you're up
<TiMiDo> Hey there my Name is Aaron H Farias Martinez. I'm from Miami Florida. I've work on ubuntu translating perhaps more than a year. as you can see my launchpad on www.launchpad.net/~harddark
<TiMiDo> sorry about this I'm just a little bit nervious.
<atoponce> np. i was too when i applied. :)
<TiMiDo> you can ask many questions if you like.
<TiMiDo> and by the way I'm the founder of #Kubuntu-es and i also help there a lot.
<atoponce> TiMiDo: when did you start the #kubuntu-es channel?
<TiMiDo> atoponce, 1 year, ago
<Hobbsee> [13:52] [Notice] -ChanServ- Registered : Jul 17 05:25:57 2007 (1 year, 17 weeks, 5 days, 21:26:28 ago)
<atoponce> TiMiDo: anyone from the #kubuntu-us irc team to rally for you?
<Hobbsee> atoponce: -es, not -us.
<TiMiDo> lol
<atoponce> er, yeah. :)
 * atoponce blames dvorak
<TiMiDo> yeah effie_jayx
<krawek> TiMiDo is awesome, that's all
<bobesponja> TiMiDo is great
<vorian> TiMiDo: what is your favorite part of the ubuntu community?
<TiMiDo> thank you bobesponja and thank you so much krawek
<vorian> what do you love to do
<Hobbsee> TiMiDo: asks me every few months for operator access in #kubuntu, fwiw.
<TiMiDo> vor, that is a user friendly interface. and is really easy to explain to users.
<vorian> how else have you helped in this fine community
<TiMiDo> vorian, actually on my lab all the computers were migrate to UBUNTU
<vorian> tell us more about that
<effie_jayx> TiMiDo,  I have to ask. why isn't there a Miami LoCo team?
<mstreetlinux> saluton
<TiMiDo> vorian, well my computers. in the lab they had Windows Xp so i've told my teacher. that i wanted it to see ubuntu on those. and he told me can you prove it to me?
<vorian> nice
<vorian> so what happened
<TiMiDo> so i started it to explain it to my Teacher. and he give me the right permission. to actually put them on the lab and Now we have more than 60 computers with UBUNTU
<TiMiDo> effie_jayx, because We are working on it with a few friends. from my Computer Science Class. =)
<vorian> TiMiDo: great stuff
<TiMiDo> and time wise now we have test. so by december I'll be getting into it =)
<vorian> TiMiDo: do you promise _not_ to bother Hobbsee again?
<TiMiDo> and making the Miami Loco team =)
<TiMiDo> yes i promise vorian sorry about that anyways Hobbsee
<effie_jayx> TiMiDo,  how close are you to start it?
<vorian> TiMiDo: did you know that it is possible to earn kubuntu membership?
<TiMiDo> well i need some work to be done. effie_jayx . and like i said by december I'll have the time. to actually started it =). since I'm getting a 3 weeks vacation.
<vorian> since it seems you lean that way anyhow
<TiMiDo> vorian, nope
<vorian> i suggest you try that route
<vorian> in fact, i think there is a kubuntu meeting tomorrow
<TiMiDo> vorian, i started it with ubuntu. and then i started it to messed with kubuntu =)
<TiMiDo> and i like it. and here i am with ubuntu and kubuntu
<vorian> ok
<TiMiDo> and hoping that on December I'll get the loco team for Miami
<TiMiDo> because i have a lot of friends that are interesting on it.
<TiMiDo> and we are planning to do an INSTALL Fest here in FIU.
<TiMiDo> just Ubuntu.
<vorian> TiMiDo: check with a fella named bordy (/whois bordy) for some help
<vorian> on the loco stuff
<TiMiDo> okey he's not online right now.
<effie_jayx> TiMiDo, I do like your energy, do I do beleive you must work a bit more locally and much more importantly you must integrate your effrts to the ubuntu community.
<effie_jayx> I would like to see you back for approval soon
<TiMiDo> oh okey
<atoponce> TiMiDo: i too would like to see a bit more sustained contributions to the community
<pinolillo> fraude!
<TiMiDo> atoponce, well if you like you can ask in #ubuntu-es
<krawek> pinolillo: +1
<vorian> pinolillo: pardon?
<william> this sucks
<atoponce> TiMiDo: get the loco team started, get some activities and release parties, and get some active membership
<mtholdenss> ?
<atoponce> TiMiDo: i can help you start the team in #ubuntu-us if you need help
<TiMiDo> hmm okey
<william> oops, wrong tab
<effie_jayx> TiMiDo,  and make sure yout team stays in sync with other communities in the ubuntu LoCo landscape
<vorian> william: noted for future reference ;-)
<atoponce> musikgoat: you're up
<musikgoat> ok
<musikgoat> Hi,  so my contributions seem to be short in comparison, but I have been a frequenter of the #ubuntu channel, assisting with answering questions that I know, and providing support for situations that I have direct knowledge (networking and hardware).  I have also assisted with bug reporting, and hope to patch a bug some day :-)
<musikgoat> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/musikgoat   &&  https://lauchpad.net/~musikgoat
<musikgoat> I have been an activist of ubuntu and linux in school, and have just recently found the chicago loco, and hope to assist nixternal in reviving this loco
<vorian> musikgoat: anyone from #ubuntu or chicago LoCo here to speak for ye?
<leo_rockw> it's GNU/Linux
<mstreetlinux> leo_rockw: ++
<atoponce> musikgoat: what two companies did you convert?
<vorian> sigh
<beuno> sigh+1
<leo_rockw> sigh backatcha
<atoponce> musikgoat: ?
<musikgoat> i haven't converted any companies, but I did get my intro to (gnu/)linux class running on ubuntu rather than redhat, and assisted my teacher and classmates in troubleshooting
<atoponce> oh. heh. reading the wrong wiki. :)
<musikgoat> vorian: i guess not,  as I've just recently started idling in that channel
<musikgoat> and been awaiting a future chicago lug to meet some of the other members
<vorian> musikgoat: we are looking for sustained contributions which are visible
<musikgoat> i see that, and understand my contributions have not been sustained yet
<vorian> again, you are off to a smashing start
<atoponce> musikgoat: yes. please continue to work toward contributing to ubuntu. there's much work to be done.
<musikgoat> :-)  definately
<atoponce> Sajnox: you're up
<Sajnox> ok
<Sajnox> y name is Miguel Sajnovsky, I'm from Argentina, 33 years and as long as I remember, computers and technology were part of my personality.
<Sajnox> Since October '07 I'm a moderator in the Argentina Team subforum and one of the admins of our LoCo Mailing List, and I have to make sure that the CoC and the forum's rules are always observed, I read every post. We are also having a great amount of mails in the mailing list
<Sajnox> I have been involved organizing release parties (Hardy and Intrepid), present with the loco team in Install fests, JRSL (Free software conferences). At the latest release pary I gave a talk about Ubuntu, telling to all the pepople what we have been doing, what we are doing and what we plan to do, encouraging them to get envolved in the community and to participate
<Sajnox> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/sajnox / https://launchpad.net/~sajnovsky-gmail
<beuno> Hi!  I've known Miguel for quite some time now, both in real life and through all the channels we have in our LoCo (IRC, mailing lists, forums), and I can only say good things about him. He's been key in moderating the tremendous traffic we have, explaining and enforcing the Code of Conduct where appropriate, and is has organized quite a few succesful events.
<beuno> He's also been extremely in helping many new-commers blend into the community of Ubuntu Argentina and help them through the initial pains.
<beuno> Personally, I'd be thrilled to see him on board as an Ubuntu member after all the hours of consistent dedication and patience he's put in.
<beuno> (thank god for tomboy)
<vorian> yay!
<marianom> Hi My name is Mariano Mara: I'm ubuntu member since sep-06 and Argentina's loco team contact. I'm here to support Miguel (Sajnox) who has been doing an incredible job in the Argentina Loco Team. Since the day he join us, he was eager to learn and help others. He was -and still is- the driven force behind a lot of things in the group, not only particular events but always trying to find how to make things work within the group and encourag
<vorian> thanks beuno
<atoponce> wow. thx beuno and marianom!
<marianom> tomboy +1!!!
<vor> I'd like to give a big cheers for sajnox.  To reinforce what I wrote on his wiki, he really is the heart of the Buenos Aires Ubuntu community.  We have one of the best (and biggest) Ubuntu communities in the world here and it wouldn't be so without sajnox.
<vorian> thanks marianom
<vorian> grrr vor
<vorian> :P
<beuno> half a vorian!
<marianom> :)
<beuno> he should get half a vote  :)
<vorian> hehe
<effie_jayx> Sajnox, any participation in spanish speaing comminity as whole?
<Sajnox> to be honest, no
<effie_jayx> speaking
<MTecknology> hey... i thought meeting was tomorrow
<effie_jayx> Sajnox, shame, we do need it
<Sajnox> my studies are not IT related
<Sajnox> and, the forums and the mailing list
<Sajnox> takes alot of time
<Sajnox> to read all
<vorian> Sajnox: nice work on the website
<Sajnox> organizing the events, and the web
<Sajnox> thanks !!
<Sajnox> I dedicate a lot of my free time to ubuntu
<effie_jayx> Sajnox, I ment more causal help with support in the spanish speaking community, maybe exchanging emails with some experience
<Sajnox> I'm focused in the Argentinean team
<effie_jayx> Sajnox, ohh I see
<Sajnox> I'm always at the forums, and in the mailing list
<effie_jayx> Sajnox, and you are an official member of the Argentinian team, right?
<vorian> haha. nice picture with mad dog
<Sajnox> but, I see your point, and I ill be glad to extend our participation to our spanish speaking forums
<Sajnox> thanks, he was really nice with us
<Sajnox> considering that we are so many people
<vorian> he is a really cool guy
<Sajnox> it will be easy to encourage the guys to get envolved in other spanish speaking forums
<effie_jayx> Sajnox, I believe you have good peole backing your membership, beuno  is probably the best mentor anyone can have
<Sajnox> I know
<Sajnox> and I'm proud of having his support
<vorian> I think you are fab fab fab! +1 from me :)
<effie_jayx> Sajnox,  however we need people like you in the general spanish-speaing community. I am very keen on seeing people integrate efforts
<effie_jayx> Sajnox,  I would like to see you participate in the Ubuntu Community  at large, and I am sure beuno  can help you there. beuno  has gone to become one of the key participants in the bazzar developments and I still remember the videos of his talks in lug meetings. please do follow his mentorship and it will lead to Ubuntu Membership in the near future
<effie_jayx> for the time being I will ask you to come back again soon
<vorian> whoops
<effie_jayx> so I say -1
<beuno> so that's a +1 and a -1?
<effie_jayx> Council
<effie_jayx> ?
<effie_jayx> that's a "please come back again" -1
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 18 Nov 11:00: Community Council | 18 Nov 16:00: Server Team | 18 Nov 17:00: Kernel Team | 19 Nov 17:00: QA Team | 19 Nov 18:00: Platform Team | 20 Nov 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team
 * beuno tries to tilt irc towards more +1's, and a compromise to expand to other LoCos
<pedro_> a +1 from me, i really like his loco work, and Sajnox if you need help running those bug jams just ping me ;-)
<effie_jayx> the count is vorian +1, effie_jayx -1, pedro_ +1
<effie_jayx> pleia2, ? cody-somerville ?
<atoponce> i'm going to give a +1. i like the activity on the mailing list, and the activity on the forums.
<pleia2> great activity in the forums and I like the loco work +1
<effie_jayx> ok
<effie_jayx> Sajnox,  welcome then, ;)
<unimix> Congratulations Sajnox !!
<pleia2> welcome Sajnox :)
<Sajnox> thanks to all guys
 * beuno cheers for Sajnox 
<vorian> Sajnox: congrats!
<leogg> Sajnox: congrats
<Sajnox> and will take seriously effie_jayx recomendations
 * marianom congrats Sajnox, he really deserves it!!
<atoponce> Sajnox: welocme aboard!
<vor> Congrats Sajnox
<Sajnox> thanks to all of you guys !!!
<unimix> Great Sajnox !! You deserves it, man !!
<pedro_> congrats Sajnox, welcome!
<musikgoat> congrats Sajnox
<leo_rockw> Sajnox: :D
<atoponce> MTecknology: you're next
<MTecknology> hurray
 * MTecknology is nervous like his first kiss
<vorian> :o
<vorian> MTecknology: please tell us about yourself, and give some good links
<MTecknology> obviously https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MTecknology
<atoponce> MTecknology: do you have a summary/introduction?
<MTecknology> not intro
<MTecknology> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MTecknology#Summary
<pleia2> MTecknology: he means, and in channel introduction :)
<pleia2> s/and/an
<effie_jayx> MTecknology,  please do give us a mitunte to read your wiki then
<atoponce> MTecknology: i noticed that you say one your wiki that you've converted two companies. which ones?
<MTecknology> Secure Banking Solutions (got 3/5 of their servers) and Arne's Computer and Paintball (3/3 servers)
<MTecknology> in channel: I've been spending a lot of time with the SD LoCo recently and have taken over the entire thing. I've also been on IRC for a few years and spent almost all of my time in #ubuntu channels.
<MTecknology> Sorry for the long Wiki, I've noticed that it's longer than most others.
<pedro_> MTecknology: in the wiki said that you're a bugsquad member, in your opinion, what's the most difficult part of working with bug reports in Ubuntu?
<MTecknology> pedro_: When somebody files a bug and forgets about it. It gets to be a pain to distinguish bugs that exist from those that don't.
<MTecknology> That's where I built most of my karma from. Just trying to invalidate bugs that are expired and forgotten.
<effie_jayx> great bug work
<MTecknology> thanks :)
<MTecknology> Actually, I'm working on that Secure VPN Ubuntu installation now. I was hoping to finish it by the end of the month.
<atoponce> MTecknology: what is your main focus with ubuntu contributions?
<MTecknology> The last 2 months have been with the SD LoCo
<atoponce> what about prior to that?
<effie_jayx> MTecknology,  any testimonials you could refer us to?
<MTecknology> prior to that it was handling bugs. Most of the bugs I was working on pertaining to hardware are fixed now. It's hard to work on hardware bugs that I can't test and try to patch up.
<musikgoat> I have to put in my input that he is an avid supporter in the irc, and is very knowledgeful and energetic when it comes to walking people through troubleshooting
<atoponce> MTecknology: have you done any wiki submissions or forums work?
<MTecknology> I don't have any testimonials, I was trying to find a few people that could say something. I know stdin, nalioth, and maybe LjL could say something useful but I haven't been able to get a hold of them.
<MTecknology> atoponce: I pretty much completely rebuilt the SD LoCo Wiki
 * Hobbsee coudl say he's a routine part of #ubuntu-offtopic
<effie_jayx> Hobbsee, define routine part"
<Hobbsee> effie_jayx: "one who is often there and talking"?
<MTecknology> atoponce: I also created a website for our LoCo. I created it to try to tie everything the LoCo offers together
<MTecknology> hrm..
<effie_jayx> 2ok
<effie_jayx> let us vote Council
<MTecknology> This might help some - https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-us-sd/
<MTecknology> err - too late
<atoponce> MTecknology: i like the bug work, but i want to see more. what would be really impressive (the deal breaker for me), is if you could get the sd team up and running, active, and stable
<effie_jayx> pleia2, cody-somerville vorian ?
<effie_jayx> pedro_, ?
<atoponce> of course, you've been in #ubuntu-us, so you know where to find us if you need help on that
<MTecknology> I guess I've dabbled in a lot of different parts of the community and it's just in the past couple months that it became my focus. My goal is the bring the team to a point where I don't need to do anything to have it running by itself.
<pleia2> MTecknology: I'd like to see more prosperous LoCo developments as well :) great bug work though, hope you keep that up as well
<effie_jayx> I say +1 for his bug work which is impressive and his small references from key members like Hobbsee
<effie_jayx> which can demonstrate your constant effort to improve
<atoponce> vorian: ?
<effie_jayx> pedro_, ?
<atoponce> cody-somerville: ?
<atoponce> (the lost one :) )
<MTecknology> Hobbsee: any chance you could put something on my Wiki for me after this? I'll see who else has something to say
 * beuno wonders why some get commas and some get semi-colons
<pedro_> MTecknology: I'd like to see a bit more of bug work, like becoming a member of the bug control team, but you're going in the right way, keep the good work there
<effie_jayx> beuno, xchat settings ;)
<MTecknology> beuno: At least it's not as bad as those that use unicode nick completes
<atoponce> xchat, irssi, kopete, pidgin... they all do it one way or another.
<effie_jayx> ok
<effie_jayx> so recap
<MTecknology> *cough*dmsuperman*cough*
<MTecknology> effie_jayx: looks like an overall -1?
<effie_jayx> atoponce, -1 pedro_ -1, pleia2 -1, effie_jayx +1
<effie_jayx> vorian, ?
<MTecknology> well
<MTecknology> If I keep working on bugs and make it into bug control, and if I get my LoCo running smoothly?
<pleia2> MTecknology: you're on the right track :) you've been working hard lately and that's fantastic
<atoponce> MTecknology: that would seal the deal
<MTecknology> pleia2: It's hard since I work 0200 - 1000 on the weekends now
<MTecknology> atoponce: how far should the LoCo be before I reapply?
<effie_jayx> MTecknology,  please do try again, your bug work is fantastic, please make sure the LoCo team does rock solid for the ood of all the South Dakota Ubunteros
<MTecknology> so - to a point that if I die, the team lives on
<pleia2> MTecknology: maybe have a few events you helped coordinate under your belt? also more activity would be good, you're certainly a driving force right now but it'd be nice to see a few more active people
<pleia2> MTecknology: right!
<atoponce> MTecknology: tough to say. each team is different. some are active on the mailing list, others forums, other launchpad, others in person. just depends on the dynamic of your team
<MTecknology> this is a sparse state - person to person is hard
<atoponce> exactly. so you can empower the teamm in other ways
<MTecknology> the road maps on the teams wiki are basically what I'm shooting for at the point
<MTecknology> It hurts to be hoping for 10 active members in a few months - but - we all gotta start somewhere
<pleia2> setting goals is good :)
<MTecknology> anyway - I guess I've never been here before so it's at least nice to know what I need to shoot for.
<atoponce> well, i want to thank everyone who showed up tonight. congratulations to those who made it. for those who didn't, PLEASE DON'T GET DISCOURAGED! we need your help. wee need your enthusiasm. we need your support
<atoponce> keep plugging along, and we'll make ubuntu the best distro out there
<MTecknology> Is that what I need to do to get all votes +1, I want a 100% vote when I come in. :)
<atoponce> MTecknology: you just need a majority from the quorum with at least 3
<MTecknology> atoponce: I know, but I wanna come roaring in next time. :)
<atoponce> do it!
<MTecknology> alrighty, I'll focus on those two areas
<elkan76> MKTecknology: If i can debbug as you can do it.... uffff.. you work very good.
<MTecknology> elkan76: wanna say that on my wiki?
<MTecknology> :)
<beuno> atoponce, effie_jayx, vorian, pedro_, awesome meeting, thanks  :)
 * atoponce nods
<Elidix> hmph.
<juan--d-_-b> o_O
<elkan76> Well this is a happy day for me but i'm so tired too, it's time to go to sleep.
<elkan76> See ya everybody!!
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Community Council Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 18 Nov 16:00: Server Team | 18 Nov 17:00: Kernel Team | 19 Nov 17:00: QA Team | 19 Nov 18:00: Platform Team | 20 Nov 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team
<dholbach> hello everybody
<dholbach> Technoviking: are you up already? :)
 * cody-somerville is here.
<dholbach> burgundavia is not up yet/not on IRC, I pinged mako and sabdfl
<amachu> Hi
<dholbach> hi amachu
<dholbach> let's wait another 5 minutes - I just pinged a few CC folks
<amachu> ok..
<elkbuntu> he jinxed himself. he was just saying his connection is flaky.
<elkbuntu> :-/
 * elkbuntu ties amachu to the /names list.
<elkbuntu> good $timeofday, sabdfl.
<dholbach> hi sabdfl
<sabdfl> howdy elkbuntu and friends
<amachu> Hi sabfdl
<sabdfl> apologies for my lateness
<dholbach> sabdfl: seems like we're the only ones here today
<dholbach> we have two agenda items on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda
<dholbach> first one would be a quick update on bug
<dholbach> err... bug 272826
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 272826 in ubuntu ""Ubuntero" inappropriate for female contributors" [Wishlist,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/272826
<sabdfl> I'm +1 on eliminating the phrase from LP
<sabdfl> in favour of "This person has signed the Code of Conduct"
<dholbach> yeah, that was the concensus
<sabdfl> i'm also +1 on generalising the code of conduct so that it can apply unchanged to other projects too
<dholbach> yes, it's great to have that resolved :)
<sabdfl> did mdke want anything further from the discussion?
<dholbach> no, he moved the CoC to a bzr branch, so the work on generalising it can begin
<dholbach> I just think it's good to have the decision in the public too :)
<dholbach> the second item is amachu's: the Asia Oceania RMB seems to be short on members
<sabdfl> what's the bzr branch URL for the coc?
<amachu> dholbach: yes
<dholbach> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-membership-board-asia-oceania shows 7 direct members
<dholbach> sabdfl: hang on
<sabdfl> come back amachu!
<elkbuntu> i'll be leading the discussion from the RMB side if amachu drops, as amachu's connection is a little touchy..... as so.
<Tm_T> elkbuntu: saving angel you are for him
<elkbuntu> he's in a relatively remote area today, his connection is excusably poor.
<dholbach> sabdfl: https://code.launchpad.net/ubuntu-codeofconduct
<sabdfl> go ahead elkbuntu
<Tm_T> amachu: welcome back
<sabdfl> or amachu
 * elkbuntu gives amachu a chance to speak first...
<amachu> Hi, Based on our experience we decided to have two two more members on board
<amachu> the experience that we had over the past few months
<sabdfl> wow, we have three north-american folks in the asia-pac regional board
<sabdfl> and three eu too
<amachu> 1) We meet the necessary quorom to conduct the meeting
<amachu> but thats all
<elkbuntu> sabdfl, we have had nothing but non-asia-pacific for a while
<sabdfl> elkbuntu: in terms of requests for consideration?
<dholbach> hm? who's north american? and who's european?
<amachu> the geographic area asia oceania covers is large, not all members are convenient with..
<elkbuntu> yes, although we did actually get one from perth, but most have been -eu based lately
<amachu> elkbuntu: I will wait. please proceed.
<elkbuntu> yes, 5pm in india is like midnight for NZ. evening is a very abstract term for us.
<elkbuntu> while we're getting the -eu people, and that's great.. we worry that it's at the cost of our own regions
<sabdfl> i agree
<sabdfl> we do have an EMEA board, right?
<elkbuntu> yes.
<Tm_T> I wouldn't mind having 1 or 2 from -eu I guess, but majority should be "local" if possible
<sabdfl> i agree that it makes little sense to have an asiapac board that include north-am and eu folks, and hears requests from the eu on a regular basis
<elkbuntu> and our board fits them well given that the earliest we can have it is is around 5pm India time, perfect for -eu student types
<sabdfl> i think having some overlap is wonderful, both from the board membership point of view (consistency) and from the requestor's perspective (flexibility on timing of meetings)
<Tm_T> sabdfl: agreed on that
<elkbuntu> what we're proposing is to have a few extra people, and alternate times.
<sabdfl> in other words, if the asiapac board meets at a time that suits asiapac, and it so happens that someone from the EU finds that time better for them, then they can be considered there and then
<sabdfl> this is an easy +1 from me!
<sabdfl> do you have candidates for nomination?
<elkbuntu> i dont believe so. I certainly dont, and australia is already well represented
<Tm_T> elkbuntu: Jucato?
<elkbuntu> i believe persia and amachu are more likely to have ideas
<persia> I'd like to see one more from west asia, and one more from central, to help keep balance between east (09:00 UTC) and west (15:00 UTC).  I don't have specific candidates.
<sabdfl> i could quite happily grow the board by 2-4 members
<sabdfl> to give you flexibility
<dholbach> if we'd follow https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncil/Delegation you could think about it and send nominations to the CC list
<sabdfl> so, all we need are some good candidates
<amachu> yes. That would help even the number number of board members present at the meeting
<sabdfl> in an ideal world, i'd like to try a runoff election, where the CC nominates 6 folks for a contest for 4 places, for example
<sabdfl> or 4 for 2
<dholbach> I'm happy with that too
<sabdfl> do you guys think you can look at the forums, irc, mailing lists and other parts fo the community and find 4-6 candidates?
 * Tm_T goes to see her baby back to hospital, see you around ->
<amachu> sabdfl: that should be possible
<persia> It may well be 6 for 4, as a couple of our members haven't attended in a while, and have been relatively unresponsive to pings, but for a total size of 9ish.
<sabdfl> cheers Tm_T, hope it's all ok
<sabdfl> persia: that's fine by me!
<Tm_T> sabdfl: she is, just had born 2 days ago (:
<elkbuntu> sabdfl, freshly baked :)
<Tm_T> but gone really ->>>
<sabdfl> i think you'll find it gets better if you have a consistent time that's generally sane for folks in a region
<dholbach> Tm_T: congratulations :-)
<sabdfl> Tm_T: that's a very direct approach to growing the community you're taking there
<sabdfl> ;-)
<dholbach> hehe
<amachu> ;-)
<amachu> sabfdl: thanks for agreeing to increase the Board's strength
<sabdfl> sigh. back in the day, when dictators were less benevolent... http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2003/08/08/917468.htm?site=science/greatmomentsinscience
<sabdfl> ok, amachu, persia, elkbuntu, thanks
<dholbach> ok... that's settled then - CC waits for nominations and we can set up the polls soon
<sabdfl> is that a wrap?
<amachu> persia: elkbuntu : what do you think on getting candiates from irc logs etc.,
<elkbuntu> sabdfl, dont go getting any ideas! No pony for you.
<dholbach> I'd say so... any other business?
<cody-somerville> I have a quick question.
<sabdfl> i'm crap with a sword anyhow
<sabdfl> go ahead cody-somerville
<cody-somerville> I was wondering if there was any news about the IRC Council's call for nominations and sabdfl's call for nominations for the tech board.
<Hobbsee> cody-somerville: ++
<Hobbsee> cody-somerville: i've been vaguely watching for that, and have heard nothing.
<sabdfl> we have two good candidates for the TB
<sabdfl> i have been holding out for more, for a runoff
<sabdfl> but at this stage, perhaps we should just move forward with confirmation votes for those two?
<elkbuntu> sabdfl, the masses might like the teaser
<sabdfl> i agree, a runoff would be more fun, and both of the candidates we have are OK to be part of that
<sabdfl> i wanted to make sure we would not lose great candidates if we asked them to go through a runoff
<sabdfl> but both said +1
<sabdfl> they just don't have any competition :-)
<elkbuntu> yeah, i can see why they voted +1 now :P
<sabdfl> well, they didn't know that they wouldn't have competition
<elkbuntu> fair point.
<elkbuntu> i guess they do now.
<sabdfl> indeed
<sabdfl> on the IRC council front, i need to do the work and vote
<sabdfl> others have already voted
<elkbuntu> Hobbsee, may i borrow your stick, please? :)
<dholbach> I'll go and chase up whoever else is missing.
<dholbach> any other business?
<dholbach> if not, I'll write up https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncil/TeamReport any minute
<Hobbsee> elkbuntu: sure!
 * Hobbsee hands elkbuntu the Long Pointy Stick of DOOM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!â¢
<elkbuntu> Eeeeexcellent.
<cody-somerville> I think NickAli wanted to bring up an issue in coordinating with the IRC Team (or whoever is responsible for the channel bot) regarding the calendar integration.
<persia> It mostly needs a coder assigned to build the Google Calendar parser.
<cody-somerville> Google Calendar exports ical
<cody-somerville> Thats what we're exporting now
<persia> Yes, but the ical module in supybot can't parse it.
<persia> Or rather, can't parse repeating items.
<dholbach> Ok, sounds like there's nothing for the CC to do here. :-)
<elkbuntu> dholbach, except continue rocking on, of course.
<dholbach> Thanks a lot everybody. Thanks sabdfl.
<dholbach> elkbuntu: ROCK ON :)
 * elkbuntu ^5's dholbach
<amachu> dholbach, sabfdl: Thank you
<dholbach> :-)
<sabdfl> thanks all!
<sabdfl> see y'all soon
<sabdfl> thanks dholbach!
<amachu> persia, elkbuntu : thank you
<amachu> i will brief the mailing list
<Technoviking> morning
 * persia ponders the nature of noon, UTC.
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 18 Nov 16:00: Server Team | 18 Nov 17:00: Kernel Team | 19 Nov 17:00: QA Team | 19 Nov 18:00: Platform Team | 20 Nov 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 20 Nov 13:00: Desktop Team
<jjesse> @schedule Detroit
<ubottu> Schedule for America/Detroit: 18 Nov 11:00: Server Team | 18 Nov 12:00: Kernel Team | 19 Nov 12:00: QA Team | 19 Nov 13:00: Platform Team | 20 Nov 07:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 20 Nov 08:00: Desktop Team
<mdz> Keybuk: looks like tech board still isn't on the fridge calendar?
<mdz> Keybuk: do you remember who was looking into that for us?
<Keybuk> not off hand
<Keybuk> it probably fell off again
<Keybuk> the fridge calendar doesn't do repeating events
<Keybuk> and nobody's ever fixed that
<mdz> Keybuk: it seems hard to believe that other teams are adding their weekly meeting week after week
<mdz> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 09:00. The chair is mdz.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<mdz> this is the technical board meeting for 2008-11-18
<mdz> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda
<Keybuk> mdz: the desktop meeting has fallen off again
<mdz> this is the first tech board meeting since I went away on holiday
<Keybuk> and I was very mean to them the last time they did that
<mdz> did one happen while I was away?
<Keybuk> one did not happen two weeks ago
<cjwatson> mdz: generally what happens when I ask them is that they add it for four weeks, just long enough for me to forget that another ping will be needed
<mdz> ok, so since the last meeting, we had a conference call with the MOTU council about upload ACLs and related issues
<mdz> we talked about a lot of different things, but didn't come to a clear resolution on very much
<mdz> there was recognition all around that ArchiveReorganisation will impact these things a great deal
<mdz> dholbach and I took a few notes, but haven't managed to turn those into anything presentable yet
<mdz> we did not, so far as I noticed, actually come to a decision on any of the outstanding requests for upload ACLs
<mdz> Keybuk: do you have a different record?
<Keybuk> I don't recall a decision being taken
<mdz> ok
<mdz> [topic] # Limited main upload rights for Stephane Graber
<MootBot> New Topic:  # Limited main upload rights for Stephane Graber
<mdz> I thought that Stephane was already a MOTU, but he wasn't yet
<persia> stgraber has since applied to MOTU, but has yet to receive comments from half of his primary sponsors.
<mdz> I can see that he has officially applied now
<Keybuk> since there is a pending request for him to join MOTU, I would prefer for that to be resolved first
<mdz> I would prefer to defer a techboard decision on this until his application has been evaluated
<mdz> ok, agreed then
<jjesse> join #ubuntu-server
<mdz> [topic] Approach to ffmpeg in ubuntu, cf. siretart's email to technical-board@
<MootBot> New Topic:  Approach to ffmpeg in ubuntu, cf. siretart's email to technical-board@
<persia> Note that in his application he states he is doing so precisely because he interpreted the last TB decision to be a request he apply to MOTU.
<MTecknology> server team is in one hour, right?
<mdz> persia: understood, please keep us informed
<Keybuk> mdz: in summary, whether to enable the h261 and h263 codecs?
<mdz> persia: I know this is a troublesome corner case at the moment with regard to the process, since his focus is on a package in main, but we would appreciate your help in doing the right thing
<cjwatson> I believe I sent mail a while back indicating I felt H.261 was OK but H.263 probably needed a legal opinion
<mdz> Keybuk: siretart raised the general question of how we should decide what is or is not OK to ship in terms of codecs
<mdz> which may or may not be claimed to infringe patents in some countries
<mdz> they responded with:
<mdz> Our general policy should be that if we have some reason to believe that a
<mdz> particular component is likely to infringe a particular company's patent,
<mdz> we shouldn't distribute that component.
<mdz> By "likely to infringe" we mean either: (1) a patent holder has claimed
<mdz> that we're infringing, (2) a patent holder is suing someone else for
<mdz> distributing the applicable technology, or (3) a patent holder is actively
<mdz> licensing the applicable technology.
<mdz> Outside that definition are (1) third party speculation of infringement
<mdz> (e.g. community message boards), (2) general, non-targeted claims of
<mdz> infringement (e.g. a patent holder claiming infringement through the
<mdz> media, without stating which technology infringes).
<mdz> Disabling the potentially infringing technology is enough so long as we
<mdz> are not enabling infringement by end users (e.g. making it possible to
<mdz> re-enable).  Removing the potentially infringing technology would be
<mdz> better.
<Keybuk> that sounds like a reasonable summary of our traditional position?
<mdz> I think it's a good deal more rigorous in its definition
<Keybuk> agreed. however it doesn't change the position, no?
<mdz> in any case, I've only just now passed that back to technical-board@ for comment
<cjwatson> I agree it's more rigorous, but I think it makes sense
<cjwatson> and is unproblematic w.r.t. suddenly having to do lots of things differently, or whatever
<mdz> the last bit means that disabling a feature at compile-time is sufficient
<mdz> if it is likely to infringe
<Keybuk> though (3), SCO, meh :p
<cjwatson> I think cases where the court has struck something down wouldn't need to count ;-)
<cjwatson> (since that means they aren't the patent holder ...)
<mdz> I think this is a reasonable starting point
<mdz> and it leads us to a set of specific questions for each codec that siretart inquired about
<mdz> these aren't necessarily trivial to answer, but at least don't require an exhaustive patent search
<mdz> anyway, this is in email for comment, and I'll follow up with siretart
<mdz> [topic] other business
<MootBot> New Topic:  other business
<mdz> any other business?
<Keybuk> none
<Keybuk> I'll be unable to attend the next meeting
<mdz> as will I
<mdz> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 09:18.
<persia> Keybuk, Desktop team didn't fall off: it was scheduled for a different room due to a conflict, and by request.
<persia> mdz, Yes, the schedule has to be manually updated every time.  The bot doesn't understand the way Google presents recurrance, and the version of drupal on fridge.ubuntu.com cannot handle recurrance.
<Keybuk> persia: ah, do meetings in other channels not go onto the fridge schedule?
<persia> The bot isn't smart enough to differentiate channels.
<persia> The code is available.  If you, or someone you know, knows python, and wants to hack it :)
<Keybuk> :)
<persia> liw took a look a few weeks ago, and said it wasn't a trivial thing to process Google iCal.  I think this is the main focus of the bot dev team now, so per-channel is likely to be further deferred.
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Server Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 18 Nov 17:00: Kernel Team | 19 Nov 17:00: QA Team | 19 Nov 18:00: Platform Team | 20 Nov 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 20 Nov 13:00: Desktop Team
<MTecknology> heh - is the bot 10 minutes ahead of me?
<persia> The bot tries to give each meeting 10-15 minutes leeway, when they aren't back-to-back
<MTecknology> oh
<jjesse> yay i finally remembered to attend a server team meting
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Server Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 18 Nov 17:00: Kernel Team | 18 Nov 20:00: Kubuntu Developers | 19 Nov 17:00: QA Team | 19 Nov 18:00: Platform Team | 20 Nov 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team
<nijaba> o/
<zul> hello
<MTecknology> hi
<sommer> yo
<Koon> \o
<kirkland> o/
 * mathiaz waves
<mathiaz> hello everyone and welcome to another server team meeting
<mathiaz> let's get this started!
<mathiaz> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:00. The chair is mathiaz.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<zul> as the world turns
<Koon> yay
<mathiaz> Today's agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
<soren> o/
<mathiaz> anyone that wants to add a point, let me know
<mathiaz> Last meeting minutes: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/Server/20081111
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Server FAQ
<MootBot> New Topic:  Server FAQ
<mathiaz> nijaba: sommer: how is this going?
<sommer> more updates... I think just the new questions need adding
 * kirkland is, again, delinquent on his server FAQ update :-/
 * nijaba has been buried...
 * mathiaz will update the roadmap too
<mathiaz> sommer: great.
<mathiaz> sommer: I thought nijaba had added a list of new questions?
<mathiaz> sommer: are there other questions you thought about?
<sommer> mathiaz: yes, they just need to be answered :)
<nijaba> I think sommer says that the new questions now needs answers
<mathiaz> oh - ok.
<mathiaz> [ACTION] mathiaz to add a section about updating the ServerFAQ to the Roadmap
<MootBot> ACTION received:  mathiaz to add a section about updating the ServerFAQ to the Roadmap
<mathiaz> [ACTION] kirkland to review the RAID related questions
<MootBot> ACTION received:  kirkland to review the RAID related questions
<mathiaz> sommer: nijaba: anything else?
<kirkland> yup
<nijaba> nope
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Get rid of old libdb versions
<MootBot> New Topic:  Get rid of old libdb versions
<sommer> mathiaz: don't think so
<mathiaz> zul: ^^?
<zul> mathiaz: roadmap has been updated
<mathiaz> zul: I think you've gone through the list
<zul> the ones there have to be updated
<mathiaz> sommer: nijaba: thanks for updating the FAQ
<mathiaz> zul: ok - great.
<sommer> mathiaz: np
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Update ServerGuide for Jaunty
<MootBot> New Topic:  Update ServerGuide for Jaunty
<mathiaz> sommer: how is the spec going on?
<jjesse> sommer: i can help out with the server guide again
<sommer> mathiaz: it's started, and I created a blueprint as well
<jjesse> sommer: do you have a link for the spec so i can subscribe?
<sommer> jjesse: that'd be awesome :)
<sommer> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JauntyServerGuide
<jjesse> subscribed
<sommer> if there are any other sections that anyone can think of feel free to add them, to the spec or the idea pool
<mathiaz> sommer: looks promising.
<mathiaz> sommer: spliting in its own package -> may be worth looking into a bzr branch
<mathiaz> sommer: but that may require some coordination with the documentation team regarding the tool chain to build the documentation.
<sommer> mathiaz: sure, I can contact mdke about it
<sommer> or anyone else who's familiar with the process :)
<mathiaz> sommer: what's the rationale to split the server guide into its own package?
<jjesse> sommer: nixternal would be familiar with it as well and oculd help out, he builds the kubuntu-docs package
<mathiaz> sommer: I guess by package you meant source package
<mathiaz> sommer: as it already has its own binary package
<sommer> mathiaz: ya, wasn't it discussed for intrepid... to ease contribution
<mathiaz> sommer: exact.
<mathiaz> sommer: but the bzr branch for the ubuntu-doc team was trimmed down during the intrepid release cycle.
<mathiaz> sommer: it's faster to create a branch now.
<mathiaz> sommer: anyhow, I'll ask the doc team about it.
<mathiaz> sommer: I'd come up with a reason for the source package split.
<mathiaz> sommer: there may be good reason to keep it in the ubuntu-doc package.
<mathiaz> sommer: I'm thinking about translations.
<sommer> mathiaz: sounds good to me
<mathiaz> sommer: but I'm not too familiar with this process.
<mathiaz> sommer: could you start a dicussion on the ubuntu-doc mailing list?
<sommer> mathiaz: sure
<mathiaz> sommer: awesome. Thanks!
<mathiaz> [ACTION] sommer to start a disucssion with the documentation team about creating a separate source package and bzr branch for the server guide
<MootBot> ACTION received:  sommer to start a disucssion with the documentation team about creating a separate source package and bzr branch for the server guide
<mathiaz> sommer: anything else related to documentation?
<sommer> mathiaz: I think that's it
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Merges and init script
<MootBot> New Topic:  Merges and init script
<mathiaz> kirkland: ^^
<kirkland> yep
<kirkland> i still need to update that wiki page
<kirkland> i'll do that this week
<kirkland> with the current state of Jaunty init/status scripts
<mathiaz> kirkland: ok.
<kirkland> cheers to Koon who's adding them in his package merges
<kirkland> \o/
<Koon> \o/
<kirkland> that's all i have
<mathiaz> great. Let's move on.
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Ubuntu Server survey
<MootBot> New Topic:  Ubuntu Server survey
<mathiaz> nijaba: ^?
<Koon> mergers should also push TearDown where appropriate
<mathiaz> Koon: by push you mean that the TearDown changes should be send to Debian?
<nijaba> mathiaz: I have made an extract of the data.  I now need to remove all private info from it
<mathiaz> nijaba: cool. What the final stats?
<mathiaz> nijaba: cool. What are the final stats?
<nijaba> Some people within Canonical think we should let the survey run a couple more month
<Koon> no, I meant implement TearDown spec in the merge if it's not done yet -- if you do it, then you should also push it to Debian.
<MTecknology> nijaba: where's the survey at?
<nijaba> they want to adwvertise it on u.c home page
<nijaba> MTecknology: to take it?  survey.ubuntu.com
<mathiaz> Koon: so Debian accepted the technical implementation of the TearDown spec?
<MTecknology> crap... i forgot how to do math :P
<mathiaz> nijaba: once you've got the anonymized data, what's the process to get access to it?
<Koon> mathiaz: james_w discussed it on debian-devel, without any real opposition
<nijaba> stat are 6844 responses for this survey (4144 full responses, 2700 responses not completely filled out)
<mathiaz> nijaba: once you've got the anonymized data, what's the process to get access to it?
<nijaba> mathiaz: I think I'll just put the csv in bzr
<nijaba> as I did for the question
<mathiaz> nijaba: IIRC we discussed who would get access to it
<nijaba> so that people running analysis on it can publish back results
<mathiaz> nijaba: is this still relevant or you wanna have an open policy about it?
<nijaba> well, I think having a private team for the analysis would be more appropriate
<nijaba> but I am not sure how we can set on up in Launchpad
<mathiaz> nijaba: ok. Let's discuss this later.
<mathiaz> That's all for last week's minutes.
<mathiaz> Anything else to add related to last week's minutes?
<mathiaz> seems not. Let's move on.
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Jaunty specs
<MootBot> New Topic:  Jaunty specs
<MTecknology> hey... The survey - there's no 8.10 option
<mathiaz> so we're all getting prepared for UDS and started to write up spec for it.
<nijaba> MTecknology: indeed, it was launched before the release of intrepid
<jjesse> i noticed there are hardly any specs targeted for jaunty yet
 * kirkland has a few specs already
 * nijaba too
<kirkland> https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/sprints/uds-jaunty
<kirkland> there's a growing number there
<jjesse> wow changed from earlier this week
 * nxvl hasn't write anything :(
<nxvl> i should write the augeas spec
 * kirkland added: 1) encrypted-home-directory, 2) encrypted-swap-by-default, 3) power-capping, 4) server-suspend-hibernate
<mathiaz> right - so if you register a new blueprint, target it for Jaunty so that it's considered for the next UDS
<nxvl> kirkland: and what happend with file swap?
<mathiaz> and also subscribe the ubuntu-server team so that we can track which specs may be or interest to the server team community.
<kirkland> nxvl: that one is still there, from last UDS
<mathiaz> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-server/
<kirkland> nxvl: encrypted swap is more important to me, for now though
<sommer> mathiaz: should we set the approver to dendrobates as well?
<mathiaz> sommer: yes.
<sommer> cool, thought I'd double check
<MTecknology> gtg - sorry to cut it short here
<nxvl> kirkland: fair enough
<MTecknology> fyi - When I encrypt any part of a syste, I just make an encrypted partition, put lvm on it, and then put /, swap, and /home on it
<MTecknology> just wanted to throw it out there - ttyal
<mathiaz> ok - that's all for the specs for the next UDS
<mathiaz> dump your ideas on a wiki page, register a blueprint and subscribe the ubuntu-server team to it
<mathiaz> so that we're all notified and can give feedback
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Merges
<MootBot> New Topic:  Merges
<mathiaz> Merging is in full swing now.
<mathiaz> I've published a list of easy merges and put it on the Roadmpa.
<Koon> I did pure-ftpd, I'll update the list.
<mathiaz> I'll try to keep it up-to-date on a weekly basis.
<mathiaz> Koon: awesome!
<mathiaz> If someone does one of them, updating the wiki page is welcome
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Open discussio
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open discussio
<mathiaz> Anyone wants to add anything?
<mathiaz> now is the time
<sommer> is a "ubuntu directory server" still in the works for jaunty
<nijaba> sommer: that's one of the proposals we have, yes
<sommer> or worked on for jaunty... now that cn=config has been implemented
<mathiaz> sommer: yes. That's the next step.
<sommer> okay, I was just thinking about it the other day
<mathiaz> sommer: There isn't a specific blueprint for now.
<mathiaz> sommer: you may wanna keep your ideas written somewhere.
<cjwatson> I'm working on getting the GTK installer frontend up and running at the moment
<cjwatson> so there should be plenty of time for interested folks to play with that pre-UDS
<cjwatson> it's been in Debian for quite a while; I only recently heard that we actually wanted it in Ubuntu though
<sommer> cjwatson: cool, do you have a link to the code?
<kirkland> cjwatson: cool, we took a look at it last week
<nijaba> cjwatson: \o/
<cjwatson> sommer: archive.ubuntu.com
<cjwatson> sommer: nothing new, it's all been there for some time, this is just the assembly
<sommer> ah gotcha
<sommer> that's all I had :)
<mathiaz> ok. great.
<mathiaz> anything else?
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Agree on next meeting date and time
<MootBot> New Topic:  Agree on next meeting date and time
<mathiaz> same time, same place, next week?
<nijaba> yep!!!
<Koon> sure thing.
<sommer> o//
<mathiaz> great. See you all next week, same time, same place.
<mathiaz> And happy merging until then!
<mathiaz> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:54.
<sommer> thanks mathiaz, later all
<kirkland> adios
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Kernel Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 18 Nov 20:00: Kubuntu Developers | 19 Nov 17:00: QA Team | 19 Nov 18:00: Platform Team | 20 Nov 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team
<pgraner> Its time for the Kernel Team Meeting....
<pgraner> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 11:01. The chair is pgraner.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
 * smb_tp arrives
 * apw is here
 * cking is here
<pgraner> [TOPIC] Welcome Andy Whitcroft to the Kernel Team!
<MootBot> New Topic:  Welcome Andy Whitcroft to the Kernel Team!
 * apw waves
<amitk> hello
<pgraner> Andy joined us a few weeks ago and is formerly from IBM working on the kernel.
<pgraner> apw: Welcome, glad to have you aboard!
<apw> thanks, its gonna be fun
<pgraner> apw: don't worry rtg will snuf the life out of ya!
<lieb> hey we survived pdx
<pgraner> [TOPIC] Status of Intrepid Security & bugfix kernels
<MootBot> New Topic:  Status of Intrepid Security & bugfix kernels
 * rtg suffers from obsessive compulsive behaviors
<pgraner> smb_tp: can you tell us where we sit and when we can expect kernels to -proposed?
<BenC> rtg: OCD is a powerful tool in the right hands
<smb_tp> dapper, gutsy security sit in repo, needing builds. hardy is almost done
<rtg> which is why I employ it :)
<pgraner> smb_tp: ETA?
<smb_tp> -proposed for hardy has been newed today
<smb_tp> I'd say start of next-week latest
<pgraner> smb_tp: any Intrepid goodness in the pipe?
<smb_tp> pgraner, rtg is on that
<pgraner> rtg: ^^^^^^^^^^^?
<rtg> Working on Intrepid security kernel 2.6.27-10.19 (yes - it is an ABI bump)
<rtg> will give to kees later today.
<rtg> Updating Intrepid with stable updates, about to incorporate 2.6.27.7 as soon as its released).
<rtg> that'll also be an ABI bump.
<pgraner> rtg: what caused the bump?
<rtg> networking stuff
<smb_tp> pgraner, muddled with task struct
<smb_tp> CVE-2008-5029
<rtg> um, skb structure change methinks.
<pgraner> rtg: ok, how long is that going to bake in -proposed
<rtg> until a few weeks before ther point release in January.
<rtg> so, late December?
<pgraner> rtg: Ok, we need to let krafty know so he can inform partners, I'll talk to him to find out how we need to go about notifying him.
<pgraner> rtg: did you post to kernel-team & installer-team?
<rtg> no, since I haven't done the upload.
<rtg> yet
<smb_tp> pgraner, For hardy I got a nice little update to 2.6.24.7 in the pipe (~130 patches) which I try to address as soon as -security is up
<pgraner> smb_tp: wow thats big... what are some of the highlights?
<pgraner> rtg: ack
<rtg> pgraner: I've been bugging smb_tp incorporate the stable patches.
<smb_tp> pgraner, I have to compile that. I first tackled just the manual catch up to the -stable git repo and make it compile
<pgraner> smb_tp: would be nice to get a summary to the mailing list
<smb_tp> pgraner, A sure must. I have to get some feedback from the RT folks since their patchset broke and I want some feedback I fixed it correctly
 * pgraner nods
<pgraner> anything else on this topic?
<BenC> smb_tp: if you want, I can take a look at your -rt changes...are they on kernel-team@?
<apw> who you talking to in the -rt team?
<smb_tp> BenC, Not yet. I got a tree on kernel.ubuntu.com/smb/ubuntu-hardy-git (stable)
<pgraner> [TOPIC] Jaunty Status
<MootBot> New Topic:  Jaunty Status
<smb_tp> apw, There is someone in the community I forgot.
<BenC> pgraner: ubuntu-jaunty raw rebase was just pushed to zinc
<BenC> pgraner: I'm doing a cleanup rebase right now, and should have that done by COB
<rtg> whats the diff between a raw and clean rebase?
<BenC> pgraner: That will give me tomorrow to do configs and start test builds, and hopefully have an upload friday
<pgraner> BenC: what are we carrying out of tree as of today
<BenC> rtg: raw rebase was "clone intrepid, rebase to linux-2.6; push"
<BenC> rtg: cleanup will involve squashing debian/* changes to a single commit, re-ordering commits, etc.
<BenC> pgraner: I wont have a clear picture of that until I cleanup the rebase
<BenC> I do know that as of right now, no commits were dropped (other than obvious cherry picks that were obsoleted)
<amitk> BenC: will you take care of upstreaming any required patches too?
<BenC> yes
<rtg> BenC: make sure you drop ubuntu/e1000e
<pgraner> BenC: prior to dropping anything I'd like to see it discussing on kernel-team, with a list of what we are keeping, dropping and adding
<pgraner> s/discussing/discussed/
<BenC> pgraner: the 4-5 commits that were dropped were cherry picks from the 2.6.27.y tree that were verified to be in 2.6.28 upstream
<BenC> nothing else was dropped
<pgraner> BenC: with rational as to why in each case
<rtg> we also need to drop some macair stuff sicne its upstream
<pgraner> BenC: understood, I'd like to have it as record on the list. I'm consistently asked about patches and why they were dropped and if they are on list we have a public record with rationale
<BenC> after the rebase we'll be able to more easily go through the ubuntu/ directory and sauce patches
<BenC> pgraner: the ones I dropped were explicitely marked as cherry picks from .y and were not sauce patches
<BenC> pgraner: anything else during the cleanup rebase, I'll post to kernel-team@
<rtg> and .y patches _must_ come from upstream.
<pgraner> BenC: great
<BenC> I'll summarize ubuntu/* and sauce patches to kernel-team@ when done
<pgraner> [ACTION] BenC to discuss sauce patch & patch status on kernel-team
<MootBot> ACTION received:  BenC to discuss sauce patch & patch status on kernel-team
<pgraner> [TOPIC] ARM Tree
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM Tree
<amitk> I uploaded an intrepid-based kernel to jaunty today. Mainly required to enable armel.
<amitk> oops
<pgraner> amitk: go for it!
<amitk> so jaunty has a 2.6.27 based kernel from intrepid with armel arch enabled
<amitk> 4 flavours intitially - iop32x, versatile, ixp4xx and orion5x
<amitk> *initially
<amitk> i see atleast 2-3 more flavours being added
<rtg> gonna be an ugly build.
<amitk> maybe not
<amitk> it took 3 hours for the 4 flavours
<amitk> so I would guess 6hrs for 3 more added. Anyone know how much hppa takes?
<rtg> its a slow build.
<amitk> one issue that was raised by doko was to move linux-libc-dev to its own source package
<BenC> amitk: horific
<amitk> since I don't have the history, I promised him I'll bring it up here
<BenC> amitk: why move it?
<amitk> and _that_ ^ was the history I was missing :)
<BenC> amitk: it used to be it's own, but it was near impossible to keep it in sync with the kernel
<amitk> BenC: they want is quicker, not having to wait for kernels to build I guess
<BenC> amitk: Once it's in there, rebuilding against it often isn't important
<BenC> amitk: unless there's some huge userspace abi issue that needs to be handled by a total repo rebuild, in which case rebuilding the kernel is trivial compared to it
<amitk> ok. I guess we can take that offline
<BenC> ok
<pgraner> amitk: we will be running the ARM tree in the kernel tree with input from the other teams. To answer your question from earlier
<cjwatson> I don't see that the initial bootstrap issue with linux-libc-dev is all that much of a problem, TBH
<pgraner> s/tree/team/
<cjwatson> if that's all that it is, I don't see a huge benefit
<cjwatson> just means we need to remember to coordinate with the kernel team for new bootstraps (which obviously we have to anyway, just a bit earlier)
<pgraner> amitk: anything else on armel?
<amitk> I'll port the armel configs to BenC new 2.6.28-based tree later today
<amitk> so with the next upload everything should be as expected
<amitk> over and out
<pgraner> [TOPIC] Open discussion
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open discussion
<BenC> amitk: would be better to just send them to me, since my next push will be forced and overwrite it
<amitk> BenC: I'll send them to kernel-team ML then
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Kernel Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 18 Nov 20:00: Kubuntu Developers | 19 Nov 17:00: QA Team | 19 Nov 18:00: Platform Team | 20 Nov 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 20 Nov 13:00: Desktop Team
<BenC> amitk: good deal
<pgraner> Anyone have any topics/issues etc... to bring up?
<apw> nothing here
<rtg> Other then the Intrepid security work that I've already discussed, I've been
<rtg> doing new kernel dev orientation in Portland and Keeping pace with compat-wireless.
<rtg> Lots 'o fixes in the wireless subsystems.
<BenC> pgraner: what are we doing about UDS planning?
<pgraner> BenC: Look for something tomorrow on list. I'm almost done with the draft schedule and agenda we can then hash it out on list and go final
<BenC> pgraner: ack
 * BenC has to cut out early to get sick kid from school
<pgraner> BenC: ack
<pgraner> Ok, I guess we'll move on to roundtable.
<pgraner> [TOPIC] Roundtable
<MootBot> New Topic:  Roundtable
 * apw wonders what one of those is
<pgraner> Looks like rtg has already talked about his bits, so BenC is out so amitk whats up other than what we've discussed?
<smb_tp> apw, One without corners?
<amitk> apw: the new guy tells a joke\
 * rtg has already blurted all his round table topics.
<amitk> nothing else on my side
<pgraner> smb_tp: anything for you?
<smb_tp> pgraner, Not very much to add. Only two SRUs for intrepid (uvcvideo and iscsitarget). Second is already waiting for ACK-love first I have to come up with
<pgraner> smb_tp: Ok...
<pgraner> cking: what say you?
<pgraner> cking: take your keyboard off mute :)
<cking> ..finishing off one lot of OEM work (an audio driver fix and video suspend/resume fix) and looking at another OEM device
<pgraner> cking: sounds like joy
<cking> hardware nerdvana
<cking> that's about it..
<pgraner> lieb: anything to say?
<lieb> I've put the bug process notes into a wiki page and it almost makes sense to me now.  I'll publish this week for review/correction.
<pgraner> lieb: great
<lieb> I've been asked to backport the ecryptfs patch to hardy does it bo back that far??
<lieb> s/bo/go/
<pgraner> lieb: it should, have you talked to kirkland? he's doing the userspace side
<apw> there is an ecryptfs in hardy
<lieb> also, should we expand the discussion of the vt issues to uds?
<rtg> lieb: I think there was a lot of change in ecryptfs from .24 to .27
<pgraner> lieb: VT is on the agenda
<lieb> pgraner: not yet
<kirkland> pgraner: lieb: there's a page alignment issue in ecryptfs in Intrepid
<lieb> which the patch applies to
<pgraner> kirkland: thanks for dropping in
<kirkland> pgraner: lieb: mhalcrow (kernel maintainer of ecryptfs) has a fix, attached to that bug
<rtg> kirkland: that one is in the pipeline
<kirkland> rtg: ah, good, you're top of it?
<rtg> lieb is
<lieb> more or less
<rtg> needs ACK love
 * kirkland catches up ...
<rtg> as smb would put it :)
<smb_tp> rtg, Yeah
<kirkland> so as far as backporting to Hardy ...  I'm kinda hoping no one is running ecryptfs on hardy :-)
<smb_tp> :)
<apw> do we have any of the sexy userspace enablement back there?
<lieb> so don't backport?
<rtg> kirkland: well, except for me. I use it daily.
<kirkland> rtg: really?
<rtg> really.
<kirkland> apw: nothing automated, just manual mount stuff
<pgraner> kirkland: rtg loves living on the edge
<kirkland> pgraner: nice.
<rtg> I guess I've not encountered the failure scenarios.
<apw> just over the edge by my calculations
<kirkland> rtg: okay, then, yes, i suspect that patch needs backporting to Hardy
<kirkland> rtg: that particular problem has only been reproduced on older AMD hardware (pre-athlon era)
 * kirkland has no such hardware
<apw> do we know the trigger?
<rtg> lemme rephrase, I used it daily until upgrading to Intrepid.
<kirkland> apw: the report was just copying a directory tree using Nautilus
<kirkland> apw: i can't image Nautilus has *anything* to do with it
<rtg> kirkland: I may have a pre-Athlon. lemme check.
<kirkland> i'd expect similar behavior from cp/rsync/mv
<lieb> so I do it, right?
<kirkland> nothing extravagant in the copy... he said like 100 files, 17MB or so
<pgraner> lieb: yep
<kirkland> i copied 4 gigs, 75,000 files without reproducing the problem on my core2 duo
<rtg> lieb: I'll ACK on the mailing list once I wrap my head around it.
<lieb> then I'm done ;)
<pgraner> apw: your turn...
<kirkland> pgraner: is that all you need from me?
<pgraner> kirkland: yep
<apw> hmmm i thought that you could only trigger this is slub debugging turned on
<pgraner> kirkland: thanks
<kirkland> cheers ;-)
<rtg> apw: which is likely why I never saw it.
<apw> been working on a few bugs here and there, a couple of SRU's up for review now
<kirkland> apw: slub was a separate issue (i think)
<apw> and have another out for testing int he community
<apw> everything ticking along ok
<pgraner> apw: great.
<pgraner> then I guess thats a wrap. Don't forget Canonical folks we have our call immediately following this meeting
<pgraner> #stopmeeting
<pgraner> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:48.
<rtg> pgraner: immediately, ot in 8 minutes?
<rtg> s/ot/or/
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 18 Nov 20:00: Kubuntu Developers | 19 Nov 17:00: QA Team | 19 Nov 18:00: Platform Team | 20 Nov 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 20 Nov 13:00: Desktop Team | 21 Nov 20:00: Tunisian LoCo Team IRC
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Kubuntu Developers Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 19 Nov 17:00: QA Team | 19 Nov 18:00: Platform Team | 20 Nov 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 20 Nov 13:00: Desktop Team | 21 Nov 20:00: Tunisian LoCo Team IRC
<jjesse> did i miss the kubuntu meeting?
<Riddell> jjesse: 5 mins
<apachelogger> *cough*
<Riddell> good evening friends
<Riddell> who's all here for a kubuntu meeting?
 * Nightrose waves
 * JontheEchidna waves
<rgreening> o/
 * claydoh_ raises hand
<Arby> \o
 * genii waves
<seele> <
 * Archdevil comes to listen
<apachelogger> \o/
<Riddell> we've got an agenda at https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/Meetings
 * ^seelenn^ \o/
<Riddell> let's start with memberships
<seele> should we do memberships first?
<Riddell> Arby wants to be one of us
<Arby> :)
<seele> Arby: are you sure about that?
<apachelogger> wiki: https://wiki.kubuntu.org/RichardBirnie LP: https://launchpad.net/~rbirnie
<Arby> seele I'm in too deep to get out
<JontheEchidna> Ok, most of us thought we already *was* a member. This is a no-brainer
<JontheEchidna> s/we/he
<Riddell> Arby: want to give us a couple of senences about what you do and why you like Kubuntu>
<Riddell> ?
<Arby> ok
<Arby> I'm a biologist for a living
<seele> +1 for cancer research
<Arby> I persuaded my company that I needed a linux box to be able work effectively for R usage
<Arby> converted my home machines at the end of the breezy cycle
<Arby> been a kde user ever since
<Arby> and wouldn't go back
<Arby> my first ever linux box was a gentoo system
<Arby> and we don't talk about thta
<Arby> :)
<apachelogger> lolz
<Riddell> Arby: how has the KDE 4 jump been for you?
<rgreening> heh
<Arby> Not too bad actually.
<seele> Arby: do you know about any of the caGRID or caBIG projects?  they're open source tech developed by the National Cancer Institute
<Arby> most of the apps I use regularly were ported early
<apachelogger> Arby: do you expect to become a motu in the future?
<Nightrose> Arby: what do you like most and least about kubuntu or kde4 (your pick)
 * hibana listening in
<Arby> seele: I've heard of them, not used them
<Arby> apachelogger: yes, eventually
<Arby> Nightrose: krunner actually became usable for me in kde4
<Arby> because it predicts what I want from it
<Arby> that rocks
<seele> Arby: will you be able to continue work on system-config-printer-kde (I actually didn't know you were working on this..)
<apachelogger> Nightrose: you know, if he picks something bad about kde4 I will have to poke him in the eye, ear and nose? that question is uber awful :P
<Nightrose> apachelogger: nah i will keep you from doing that :P
<Nightrose> no worries
<Arby> seele: I intend to, I was trying to get something working in place before I bug you
 * james_w waves
<Arby> did I miss any in there?
<apachelogger> Nightrose: I have been training my skills, I can now raise shields in less than a second :P
 * apachelogger waves to james_w
<Nightrose> damn - that is fast
<Arby> something bad about kde4 hmm...
<Nightrose> Arby: yea - what you like lest about kde4/kubuntu ;-)
 * NCommander arrives late :-/
<Nightrose> +a
<Arby> kmail is a pain to set up with gmail/imap but that's probably google's fault
<Nightrose> fair enough
<Nightrose> +1 from me - biologists rock ;-)
<apachelogger> I guess we can improve that with akonadi ... creating new connection thingies is fairly easy from what I saw
<Riddell> +1 from me for being around for ages and doing CD testing and now s-c-p-k love
 * Tm_T hides
<JontheEchidna> cheers from me for rocking at KDE packaging
<seele> +1 for cancer research and printer-config coding
<rgreening> +1 here... I love Arby's.... mmmm
<Arby> :)
<apachelogger> Arby: welcome to the family
<Tm_T> sorry I'm bit late
<seele> hmm.. no yuriy and nixternal?
<Riddell> congratulations Arby
<Arby> thanks folks
<Nightrose> welcome Arby :)
<apachelogger> seele: they didn't want to come for some reason
<claydoh> +1 for all the above reasons
<Riddell> apachelogger: carry on /me brb
<seele> sheesh, slackers :)
<Riddell> txwikinger: isn't here go on with the agenda
<apachelogger> okies
<apachelogger> I am proposing that we switch all KDE core packages to bzr based packaging (i.e. version control the debian directory)
<nixternal> bah, sorry
<nixternal> congrats, +1 :)
<nixternal> I have to go on site so I have to leave...go figure
<apachelogger> that way we can increase collaboration and decrease the amount of uploads we do
<nixternal> ttyl
<apachelogger> this makes most sense for the core packages because they usually contain a lot of applications and some of the uploads we do are really not important enough to be done
 * JontheEchidna nods
<rgreening> apachelogger: will this make debian syncs/merges easier or no impact?
<apachelogger> so instead of uploading minor changes right away to the archive (consuming build time and space and version number and bandwith and what not) we would commit to the bzr branch and every once in a while a core dev pushes the changes
<apachelogger> rgreening: it will once the general ubuntu setup is available for that
<claydoh> any negatives?
<apachelogger> james_w might want to tell us about the future plans for bzr based development
<rgreening> apachelogger: k. that gets my vote
<james_w> thanks apachelogger
<Nightrose> apachelogger: drawbacks (for those unworthy and unknowing people like me)
<Nightrose> ;-)
<Nightrose> add a ? somewhere there
<james_w> we're moving to make this available to everyone for every package in the archive, regardless of whether anyone actually uses bzr for that package
<apachelogger> Nightrose: ^ that answers the question I guess ;-)
<Nightrose> *nod*
<james_w> that means that it doesn't matter if the package is uploaded outside of bzr, nothing will be lost, and it will be a usually small bit of work to re-sync things (like 1 command)
<smarter> oh, I missed the beginning
<james_w> so I think it is great that you are considering it
<smarter> anyway, +1 on bzr packaging (for some exemples,
<apachelogger> smarter: you are biased :P
<smarter> see my packages: https://code.launchpad.net/~smarter )
<james_w> apachelogger: you said "version control the debian directory"?
<smarter> version control on the source is pretty much useless
<genii> Is the bzr method a way also to make a move from LP ?
<Tm_T> as all changes should be in debian dir
<apachelogger> james_w: packaging-only, draging the sources around in the branch would be rather awful for core KDE
<smarter> and mess diffs
<smarter> and merges
<Tm_T> indeed
<apachelogger> most of source packages are >10 MiB, compressed that is
<james_w> but version controlling ./debian/ is also not very nice
<apachelogger> james_w: how so?
<james_w> for instance, where you have ./debian/patches/ you don't get bzr's ability to merge
<james_w> well, if the patches are modified you do, but it normally doesn't do what you want
 * smarter doesn't understand
<smarter> refresh the patch? see if they were applied upstream?N
<apachelogger> hm
<james_w> yes, but you get that for free if you do full source branches with no ./debian/
<apachelogger> that would however increase the diff from debian if debian uses debian/patches, wouldn't it?
<james_w> it is obviously more data to carry around, and conflicts with some ideas of what good packaging is, but it does bring you some benefits
<james_w> apachelogger: yes, it would.
<smarter> changes outside debian/? IMHO this is just bad
<james_w> apachelogger: it would be possible to do some conversions to make that almost invisible, but that's not implemented yet
<yuriy> hi. woops, translated the time wrong. I should be used to this by now.
<smarter> quilt refreshes patches, and seeing if a patch has been applied upstream isn't that hard, (patch tells you)
<apachelogger> smarter: only half bad if you have it in a VCS
<smarter> still feels bad :p
<smarter> and does not work with http://patches.ubuntu.com
<apachelogger> james_w: I think we can rule out full source branches for core KDE
<smarter> so more work for upstream/other distros if they want to pick patches
<Tm_T> yup
<apachelogger> james_w: KDE is not as fine splitted as GNOME source wise, you have big meta packages like kdebase-workspace which essentially carrys everything that is needed for a sensible workspace
<Tm_T> I'd say no for full source branches
<apachelogger> 92 MiB uncompressed source
 * smarter will continue to use debian/-only branching for his not so core KDE packages :p
<apachelogger> james_w: from what I know there were earlier tries to keep full source branches of some KDE packages, which essentially made everyone think that bzr is awfully slow, which doesn't surprise me considering the amount of data carried around
<james_w> true, that is being worked on
<apachelogger> ok, we should consider this at a later time then
<Tm_T> I'm not sure if having full source branches have any real benefits right now
<apachelogger> for now trying to get packaging under version control should be a good target
<Tm_T> apachelogger: I agree on that
<james_w> in a few months there will be branches to play with, proper launchpad hosting for them, faster bzr, tools to make the work easier, and ways to replace e.g. patches.ubuntu.com
<apachelogger> sounds awesome :)
<james_w> and the infrastructure to do it our way even if you disagree :-p
<apachelogger> :P
<apachelogger> any questions?
<apachelogger> or comments for that matter
<JontheEchidna> I think getting packaging under vcs and considering everything else later sounds good
<james_w> there hasn't been much information about what we are up to yet, but that should change real soon
<JontheEchidna> :)
<apachelogger> james_w: we would all be very eager to give feedback I guess
<Tm_T> james_w: any way to have full source branches with real benefits WITHOUT breaking sensible compatibility with Debian and other distributions aswell?
 * rgreening nods
<james_w> Tm_T: in theory, I'll be working on the practice at some point
<smarter> also, we need a proper howto on using bzr for packaging, all Kubuntu devs don't know how to use it
<smarter> I started one sometimes ago but never completed it
<Tm_T> james_w: ok, that sounds good
<rgreening> agreed smarter
<james_w> anyone that wants to discuss that sort of thing is encouraged to head over to vcs-pkg.org
<apachelogger> smarter: we should create a batscript for that ;-)
<smarter> maybe we could create a wiki page out of the session on bzr packaging from one of the openweek?
<james_w> for details on what we are up to in Ubuntu you can visit https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DistributedDevelopment
<Tm_T> smarter: sure!
<james_w> and notice the first link on that page :-)
<apachelogger> smarter: I guess that first link resolves the documentation issue? ;-)
<smarter> ooh, shiny
<smarter> but a bit too splitted for my taste :p
<apachelogger> you people and your /Complete pages :P
<james_w> that's easily fixable with some moin includes
<JontheEchidna> you have been infected by the monolithic KDE :P
<JontheEchidna> you can never escape
<JontheEchidna> muwahahaha
<apachelogger> oh dear, there we go ago
<Tm_T> ago?
<apachelogger> again even
<smarter> also, bzr builddeb should be explained in more details imho, I'll try to add some stuff
<Tm_T> apachelogger: son, you're not making much sense, are you?
<apachelogger> possibly
<apachelogger> anyway, I think we can drag the topic to the mailing list and do the final discussion there
<apachelogger> hopefully seeing our packaging in bzr really soon
<james_w> apachelogger: please Cc me on that
<apachelogger> aye
<james_w> thanks
<apachelogger> james_w: thank you for taking time :)
<Tm_T> james_w: thanks (:
<james_w> thanks for inviting me :-)
<Riddell> thanks for coming james_w
 * Riddell back from crisis
<james_w> smarter: file:///usr/share/doc/bzr-builddeb/user_manual/ should be a start
 * apachelogger thinks Riddell should talk about the crisis before continuing
<rgreening> dino crisis
<Riddell> apachelogger: girl stuff, hand wave
<rgreening> lol
<apachelogger> *scratching head*
<jjesse> dino crisis?
<apachelogger> ryanakca: ping
<JontheEchidna> "if you're having girl trouble I feel bad for you, son..."
<Riddell> so we agreed to continue bzr on mailing list?
<apachelogger> yes
<apachelogger> generally good feeling about it
<ryanakca> apachelogger: pong, Mind skipping to the next item and comming back? I could give a screenshot.. but a public page would be nicer, no?
<smarter> james_w: yup, it's great but not advertised a lot
<^seelenn^> JontheEchidna: Nice bit of Jay-Z there!
<ryanakca> apachelogger: or I can just stick a screenie under my public_html... either or...
<apachelogger> ryanakca: nah, do it properly
<JontheEchidna> I spits hot fire!
<apachelogger> or send it to me, I can upload
<apachelogger> Riddell: please continue with UDS topics
<seele> oh, this will take a while
<Riddell> I tidied up this page https://wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuJauntySpecs
<seele> do we have any volunteers for writing specs?
<seele> Hobbsee was pinging about it last night
<Riddell> registering i what needs done
<Riddell> so question is, are those five specs sensible ones to register and have time slots allocated
<Riddell> to some extent they all merge into each other and the outcomes (i.e. what specs we write) can be flexible
<jjesse> yes
<jjesse> i would attend those
<Riddell> s/would/will/ :)
<apachelogger> they all look very sensible to me
<rgreening> agreed
<JontheEchidna> I think kpackagekit has it's own notification system
<Riddell> there's also been discussion among the platform team about having more QA time this cycle
<Riddell> but I don't think we need a spec about that, we just try and follow the general Ubuntu plan for that
<JontheEchidna> but I guess details on specs can be worked out later
<apachelogger> JontheEchidna: that is what UDS is for :)
<JontheEchidna> heh
<smarter> one important thing: our python apps seem to be undertested with locales != english
<smarter> lots of pyqt/pykde apps crashes because of accents in the l10nized strings
<Arby> what about something on translations?
<smarter> I'll try to test them more often
<smarter> but automated testing would be good
<rgreening> I believe there is a ubuntu rosetta spec
<Arby> that would be good
<Riddell> poking rosetta people would be good
<apachelogger> Riddell: I don't think we need a spec for the on-going problems?
<yuriy> those sound good
<apachelogger> Scott wanted to do quite some discussion about that
<Tm_T> off ->
<yuriy> maybe also discuss applications with upcoming KDE4 versions? (k3b, amarok, digikam)
<apachelogger> Tm_T: cya
<seele> File sharing might be a spec in itself.. nothing really got done since the last time it was talked about in Prague
<smarter> hmm, what's Kdpkg?
<Riddell> the rosetta problems are launchpad issues, nothing we can spec, but certainly talk to the rosetta people
<Riddell> yuriy: yes, care to add that to the first spec on that page?
<apachelogger> Riddell: also the networkmanager and bluetooth breakage
<Riddell> seele: we have the spec from last time for it
<seele> Setup and Gap Analysis look like the same thing
<seele> Riddell: that gets carried over?
<rgreening> Riddell: how long are the sessions typically?
<seele> hmm.. should we have a separate KDE 4.2 discussion?
<Arby> re: adept vs kpackagekit, isn't that going to be heavily dependent on what kde do?
<apachelogger> what's there to discuss? ;-)
<jjesse> as in do we want kde 4.2 or not?
<seele> rgreening: ~1 hour with multiple extensions throughout the week
<vorian> its like gdebi-instsll, smarter
<Riddell> Arby: yes, there's a kpackagekit guy at fosscamp I'll get to talk to
<smarter> what's wrong with gdebi?
<apachelogger> seele: most of the items in setup read like improving existing stuff, gap analysis more like adding new stuff
<seele> jjesse: i expect we will, but who knows what it will look like
<persia> Regarding rosetta, it may also be interesting for UDS attendees to try to attend https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/smooth-rosetta-imports
<seele> alpha is supposed to be out rsn
<Arby> packagekit seems to be flavour of the month, has anybody actually used it?
<apachelogger> beta actually
<seele> ah, even better
<rgreening> I assume that some of these specs will result in additional (fine-tuned and specific) specs to track individual items to complete.
<apachelogger> seele: if KDE continues like that there isn't going to be a major release we don't want to have
<jjesse> rsn?
<seele> apachelogger: sure as long as there isn't new stuff that only sortof works
<apachelogger> 4.2 comes with akonadi for pim, which is super uber master unbelivable important
<Riddell> seele: the first spec on that page is intended to be 4.2 discussion
<apachelogger> also policykit-kde is going to get in which is going to imporve a lot of things
<jjesse> especially with more kubuntu people there this time, instead of like UdS Boston it was me and riddell
<Riddell> Arby: yes, when it works it works nice enough
<apachelogger> seele: there always will be, it's our job to make it work or disappear (e.g. plasma activities) ;-)
<seele> Riddell: kde packaging?
<Riddell> seele: yes
<seele> apachelogger: yeah.. disappear wasnt too popular :-/
<Riddell> seele: unless you're thinking of a different angle
<seele> Riddell: i was thinking on the "disappear" angle
<rgreening> um .. wow netsplit
<apachelogger> seele: it's the bad experience => feedback vs. good experience => no feedback problem IMO
<apachelogger> we saved a lot of people a lot of trouble
<Riddell> rgreening: yes, we can add new specs as discussion warrents them
<Riddell> seele: gap analysis is stuff we lack compared to ubuntu/kde 3, Setup is config settings and fixing incomplete bits
<seele> ok
<Riddell> rgreening: sessions are an hour I think
<rgreening> Riddell: may be short on time for some of those topics... given the depth of the categories.
<seele> rgreening: they can be extended throughout the week for additional discussion
<Riddell> rgreening: we can ask for a second slot
<Riddell> that's quite common
<jjesse> rgreening: we can talk more and more
<rgreening> ok. cool
<jjesse> plus we can discuss as a group outside of a session
<jjesse> like over lunch or dinner
<rgreening> true.. over brewskies
<apachelogger> Oo
<apachelogger> oh dear
<seele> no karaoke though, different hotel this time
<Riddell> still has a hot tub though
 * rgreening has done some of his programming in a bar on a napkin
<apachelogger> Riddell: I guess we can move on before I become sad that I can't go to UDS? :P
<Riddell> yep
<seele> Riddell: does it have your swimming pool too?
<yuriy> apachelogger: too late!
<Riddell> txwikinger has arrived
<Riddell> txwikinger: shall we consider your membership?
<Riddell> hmm, maybe he's disappeared again
<Riddell> "Beta 1 packaging/uploading"
<Riddell> JontheEchidna: I heard you were incharge of beta 1?
<JontheEchidna> yeah, we're waiting on tarballs to show up in ktown
<Riddell> JontheEchidna: 4.1.3 in intrepid should get moved to -proposed (then -updates) so the backports can go to experimental then copied to -backports
<Riddell> but I'm away next week
<Riddell> so no reliable internet
<JontheEchidna> I assume we would not place KDE 4.2 into backports until the first stable release
<Riddell> so you'll need to convince apachelogger or scottk or someone to upload
<Riddell> JontheEchidna: good point
<Riddell> so just jaunty
<apachelogger> and kubuntu-experimental
<JontheEchidna> yes
<Riddell> I updated libs/bindings/base this week so they shouldn't be much different to package
<apachelogger> we discussed that in the last meeting
<Riddell> you're ahead of me then
<apachelogger> seems so
<Riddell> next item
<Riddell> JontheEchidna had a "Bug status report"
<JontheEchidna> oh, right :)
<JontheEchidna> Right now we're in pretty good shape I think
<JontheEchidna> we still need help as always
<apachelogger> JontheEchidna: I have a script ready for batchuploading, so once you are done with ensuring everything works just rely the dsc, diff.gz and filter.diff ... also you might want to checkout the local-repo additions to the hooks
<JontheEchidna> I have gathered some stats about the bugs and how KDE 4.2 will immediately affect the tracker
<txwikinger> Hi folks
<txwikinger> yes please
<apachelogger> txwikinger: o/
<jjesse> JontheEchidna: i have some more time to help w/ basic triage of things during hthe upcoming weeks so i wil lbe back to trying to track things down
<Riddell> txwikinger: too late, JontheEchidna on now, you next
<JontheEchidna> KDE 4.2 will immediately close 4 known bugs (about 9%) in kde4libs
<Riddell> kde4libs only has ~40 bugs?
<JontheEchidna> 48 or so
<apachelogger> Riddell: it had 5 when we started triage
<JontheEchidna> kdebase will also recieve 4 bugfixes, or about 2% of total bugs
<apachelogger> Riddell: most bugs in libs are long-standing ones and probably still in kdelibs rather than kde4libs
<JontheEchidna> that sounds totally pitiful, but on the bright side almost 50% bugs are both triaged and linked upstream
<JontheEchidna> or about 70 bugs
<apachelogger> yay for linked upstream
<JontheEchidna> kdebase has also been triaged down to 160-some bugs :D
<yuriy> :) yay we're not talking about hundreds or thousands
<JontheEchidna> I think we had 600 at the middle of intrepid \o/
<txwikinger> apachelogger: o/
<apachelogger> TBH most of them got just splitted up among base, runtime and workspace
<apachelogger> or closed due to KDE3 outdateness
<JontheEchidna> yeag
<JontheEchidna> h
 * apachelogger thinks txwikinger is lagging a lot
<JontheEchidna> kdebase-workspace will have at least 12 bugs fixed in 4.2, or 8% of total open bugs
<yuriy> JontheEchidna: do you think that the bug tracker is in the kind of shape where it would be useful to try to target particular sets of bugs for alphas?
<JontheEchidna> yuriy: we have already started doing that
<JontheEchidna> :)
<JontheEchidna> around 45% in kdebase-workspace are both upstreamed and triaged, or about 54 bugs
<JontheEchidna> but now comes kdepim...
 * apachelogger shudders
 * Arby shuffles quietly away
<JontheEchidna> at this point in time it has more bugs open than in kdebase
<JontheEchidna> only 3 bugs or 1.5%  of all open bugs are set to be fixed with KDE 4.2 that we know about
<JontheEchidna> it still has a crapload of hard to reproduce imap bugs from KDE3
<Arby> I'm a few days away from a mass closure due to lack of info/response
<JontheEchidna> Arby: evil laughs all around >:)
<apachelogger> we can close most of them once we are switching to akonadi
<JontheEchidna> nice
<apachelogger> the underlying system is completely different (and actually more reliable)
<apachelogger> and most bugs for kmail are about dataloss of some sort
<apachelogger> or crashes
<apachelogger> which both should be taken care of by akonadi and KDE 4.2
<doc__> hi
<JontheEchidna> So I think on most fronts we are doing a good job keeping bug volume under control
<JontheEchidna> we should put an emphasis on keeping it that way + upstreaming bugs for Jaunty
<Riddell> seems like 4.2 should be a benefit for bug count
<apachelogger> most definitely
<JontheEchidna> yes, KDE 4.2 should close several dozen bugs
<apachelogger> also a lot of plasma issues are going to be resolved
<apachelogger> BTW
<apachelogger> I was thinking about assigning specific people to specific packages
<Riddell> I didn't think you could assign
<JontheEchidna> oh, and somebody needs to fix apachelogger's kmail
<apachelogger> bug triage is a lot more effective the ones doing it have great knowledge of the apps
<apachelogger> Riddell: well, on a non-lp level
<apachelogger> just make people focus on a specific package
<apachelogger> monitoring all packages at once is rather difficult
<yuriy> can't you subscribe to a package's bugs?
 * yuriy would volunteer for one butt doesn't know which
<Arby> do we have enough people with enough knowledge of a given app for that to work?
<Arby> s/app/package/
<apachelogger> we could start on the big bug spots
<apachelogger> namely kdepim and the kdebases
<apachelogger> initial triage becomes a lot easier if not everyone has to care about everything
<Arby> that's true
<txwikinger> yuriy: yes I think you can
<apachelogger> like Arby is doing a lot of work in kdepim, so if Arby agrees to focus on kdepim I could filter all kdepim related bug mails coming in via kubuntu-bugs directly to the trash because Arby will take a look at them when he gets a chance
<Arby> look at != be able to do anything about :)
<apachelogger> Arby: triage is everything ;-)
<Arby> the underlying mail architecture is black magix to me
<Arby> but I agree in principle :)
<apachelogger> it improves over time ;-)
<apachelogger> the more people join the core bug squad, the easier it becomes to get initial triage done, and intial is most important to spot major issues
<JontheEchidna> plus all the black magix will be moving to akonadi soon anyways
<apachelogger> akonadi got very decent debugging facilities :)
<apachelogger> JontheEchidna: anything else to say?
<JontheEchidna> no, I think that's it
<JontheEchidna> loosely assigning package focuses should be considered or perhaps worked out in a less official manner
<JontheEchidna> I don't think we'll have a problem with that
<Riddell> thanks beastie squishers
<Riddell> txwikinger: about?
<yuriy> JontheEchidna: send mail asking for volunteers for specific packages?
<txwikinger> yes
<txwikinger> do I still lag?
<Riddell> txwikinger: got a wiki page?
<txwikinger> https://launchpad.net/~txwikinger https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Txwikinger
<JontheEchidna> yuriy: that might be a wise move
<txwikinger> I updated it a little bit
<Riddell> txwikinger: able to tell us what you do and why you like us?
<txwikinger> Well.. I like you guys because you rock :D
<apachelogger> \o/
<apachelogger> +1
<txwikinger> I am an IT professional for about 25 years
<txwikinger> I have worked with Unix in the past and for about 7 years with Linux
<txwikinger> I am already an Ubuntu member
<txwikinger> but I really never use Gnome.. I like KDE a lot better
<txwikinger> and I think with enough love, KDE will rock the boat
 * JontheEchidna shares the sentiment
<Riddell> txwikinger: are you still the top 5-a-day dude?
<txwikinger> yes Riddell
<Riddell> impressive
<txwikinger> I have also given a presentation at the Ontario Linux Fest last month about Bug triage and 5-a-day
<JontheEchidna> he's pretty handy for a hug day
<txwikinger> well.. not the top at the moment
<apachelogger> that reminds me, I didn't commit bug stats in at least a month
<txwikinger> but I think top 5 or so
<Riddell> is the "Kubuntu based market-targeted distribution" Icxthus?
<txwikinger> I am in the process of an intercontinental move at the moment.. Tomorrow I get decent broadband again :D
<apachelogger> txwikinger: future plans for Kubuntu?
<txwikinger> yes it is ichthux
<txwikinger> Helping with some systemsettings stuff
<Riddell> txwikinger: did ichthux do an intrepid release?
<txwikinger> I already work on the user management
<seele> yes please
<txwikinger> Riddell.. Due to the move I did not have the time to make it 100% work with KDE4
<txwikinger> but with some manual tuning it still works
<seele> txwikinger: supposedly there is someone working on a new kuser UI, but i've no idea what the status is
<Riddell> someone might be txwikinger :)
<txwikinger> I will get on now to get the bibletime for KDE4 packaged and do some tuning
<seele> no, it was a non ubuntero
<txwikinger> seele: I got it working standalone
<yuriy> txwikinger: is Nicolas Ternisien aware of that? did you get that mail from him about guidance to kdeadmin for 4.3?
<txwikinger> I got some information the other day how to get it into systemsettings and will work on that
<yuriy> er that was to seele ^
<txwikinger> yuriy: I saw the e-mail
<seele> yuriy: hmm.. no.  i wish people would coordinate better
<txwikinger> I will get in contact
<apachelogger> seele: he sent it to kubuntu-devel
<txwikinger> Well.. I also intend to do some work to become a MOTU especially for Kubuntu stuff
<yuriy> txwikinger: any plans to get involved upstream? (such as with system settings)
<Nightrose> txwikinger: same wuestion for you as for Arby: what do you like most and least about kubuntu or kde4 (your pick)
<seele> apachelogger: hmm.. i only saw printer stuff from him on there.  i'll have to dig through the archives
<txwikinger> I am already maintaining the ichthux packages and bibletime.. bibletime also for Debian
<txwikinger> yuriy: Sure
<txwikinger> I like most about KDE4 that it creates a new concept of desktop usage
 * seele assumes when someone says "give us a new kuser UI" that there aren't other people trying to do the same thing..
<apachelogger> seele: only sent recently, he wants to get all of guidance into kdeadmin and ported to KDE 4
<txwikinger> I think it is very revolutionary
<seele> txwikinger: i'm glad you aren't resistant to change
<Riddell> +1 from me for doing a talk at Lugradio live when jono was badgering me to do one
<txwikinger> I think a problem is that some user have a little problem with this new concept.. I think we need to help them adust
<txwikinger> adjust.. I want to help there
<seele> badger badger badger..
<Tm_T> Riddell: +1 for that too
<Nightrose> hmmm *nod*
<seele> +1 from me too
<rgreening> +1 for being a canadian too
<yuriy> +1 from me
<Nightrose> +1 for being an uberbugtriager
<yuriy> txwikinger has been involved for a while
<Riddell> quite a new Candian :)
<ryanakca> +1 here :)
<claydoh> +1
<txwikinger> o/ rgreening :)
<Riddell> txwikinger: looks like you're in, congratulations
<rgreening> :)
<JontheEchidna> woohoo
<Nightrose> welcome txwikinger
<ryanakca> txwikinger: you a canadian yet?
<txwikinger> thanks Riddell and folkd
 * apachelogger hands txwikinger a cookie and a hug
<yuriy> welcome txwikinger
<txwikinger> folks
<ryanakca> congrats txwikinger :)
<apachelogger> Riddell: ryanakca is read with his agenda item
<Tm_T> txwikinger: hug mama?
<Riddell> still some items on the agenda
<Riddell> ryanakca: go go
<txwikinger> ryanakca: Permanent resident so far.. if that counts :D
<ryanakca> Okies... We've updated the kubuntu.org theme... but our wiki.kubuntu.org theme seems to be lagging behind / old... ^seelenn^ and I worked on porting mdke's new help.ubuntu.com/community/ theme to Kubuntu colors... What we have so far is http://wiki.ryanak.ca/kubuntu/ .
<ryanakca> Is there any interest / should we keep working on it, or would people rather keep the current theme?
<apachelogger> is that question serious? Oo
<JontheEchidna> looks much better imo
 * rgreening likes
<Riddell> looks good but I'm not convinced at fixed width
 * claydoh likes
<ryanakca> (I don't know if mdke's theme is the default yet, but, you can select it on the community wiki from preferences -> theme -> ubuntunew )
<yuriy> same as Riddell
<seele> do Kubuntu colors typically match the current KDE release colors?  the website looks very 3.5 in that respect
<smarter> same as Riddell, fixed width is Bad
 * JontheEchidna dislikes fixed width as well
 * Tm_T too
<ryanakca> seele: well... we're trying to keep it as close to kubuntu.org as possible... that way there's a unity.
<yuriy> ryanakca: images aren't loading from your server
<seele> ryanakca: ah i see
<ryanakca> yuriy: I know :)
<seele> no no no you people.. fixed width! fixed width!
<^seelenn^> fixed width has it's advantages
<seele> or at least a managed fluid width that doesnt get out of control in larger resolutions
 * ^seelenn^ agrees with seele
<ryanakca> seele: imho, it would confuse people if one of our sites had colors <x> and another had colors <y>
<Tm_T> seele: heh, that too
<apachelogger> seele: that is more sensible than fixed
<apachelogger> ryanakca: fixed with gives us a lot of trouble
<apachelogger> JontheEchidna can also whine about that
 * JontheEchidna thought he already did
<apachelogger> getting content to look good in a fixed with theme is a bloody waste of time
<ryanakca> Ok, I guess we'll adapt it to ``fluid width that doesn't get out of control in larger resolutions'' as well?
<seele> apachelogger: the point is to aim for 20-25 english words per line
 * Tm_T hate fixed widths and font sizes which doesn't follow users settings
<seele> any more than that and prose is too difficult to read
<seele> even 25 wpl is kindof long
<apachelogger> seele: in a wiki you barley even have paragraphs that long ;-)
<Tm_T> seele: I disagree on that
<^seelenn^> ryanakca: Some serious cross platform/browser testing I think then
<seele> depends on what is wikied
<seele> Tm_T: don't make me dig out research, because i'll do it
<ryanakca> seele: if you're interested... we'd love your usability feedback while we work on the wikitheme...
<apachelogger> seele: I think the problem is addressed at the wrong node ... it is rather the viewing application that should ensure readability
<seele> ryanakca: sure, just ping me with questions
<ryanakca> seele: thanks :)
<Riddell> groovy
<seele> apachelogger: it's a bit irresponsible to place the burden of usability on the user's choice of browser
<Riddell> seems like we want the theme
<seele> otherwise, why "design" a page at all
<Riddell> claydoh is next up
<JontheEchidna> burn kubuntu-users with fire!
<claydoh> Ok
<claydoh> :)
<claydoh> first, do any of us actually folllow it at all?
<claydoh> besides me
<Nightrose> i read some of it and decided not to continue
<Nightrose> waste of time
<Riddell> I scan over it
<Nightrose> :(
 * JontheEchidna doesn't even bother
 * rgreening avoids suchs lists
<seele> if the kde community leader can't read it then it must be bad
<JontheEchidna> unless somebody points out a lulzish post
<claydoh> Nightrose: I feel that way too :(
<apachelogger> we need to do something!
<Nightrose> indeed
<claydoh> do we need a support list  an anyones opinion?
<apachelogger> Riddell: IIRC it is possible to block threads or something?
<Riddell> so split it into kubuntu-users for support and kubuntu-users-chat for everything else?
<Tm_T> seele: I know that research, but it doesn't apply to me
<seele> public humiliation?
<Nightrose> stricter moderation?
<apachelogger> Riddell: I don't why we need a list for it at all
<seele> Nightrose: same difference?
<Nightrose> yea
<Nightrose> Riddell: i don't really think we need a chat mailinglist tbh
<Nightrose> maybe i am wrong
<apachelogger> Riddell: if people want to elaborate their opinion, which is what most of these threads are, they might very well get a blog
<claydoh> apachelogger: that is part of the question
<Nightrose> or a cat :P
<apachelogger> yus
<JontheEchidna> forums are better; we have forums for both kubuntu and KDE now
<rgreening> Nightrose: groan
<rgreening> :)
<Riddell> so we should just block anyone who gets off support topics?
<apachelogger> nah, just the threads if that is possible
<Nightrose> well maybe start it with a "here is how it goes" email
<claydoh> Riddell: that would of course tick everyone off
<Nightrose> tellign them that the list is becomming useless for a lot of people
<claydoh> then there's the Heavy Hand of the Big Evil Kubunntu Devs
<Nightrose> because there is no actual support happening
<JontheEchidna> claydoh: well, the point *is* that we dont' want them :P
<apachelogger> really, we should just block the threads as they appear
<Nightrose> apachelogger: can single threads be blocked?
<Riddell> topics can
<Nightrose> nice
<apachelogger> sounds good
<Nightrose> yea
<Riddell> seems like we need a volunteer to be a more active moderator
<Nightrose> claydoh maybe?
<apachelogger> I vote for claydoh
<claydoh> umm
<Nightrose> hehe
 * claydoh runs and hides
<apachelogger> Riddell: maybe we should just get a team of moderators
<Tm_T> haha, claydoh you're volunteered now
<claydoh> a team would be ebtter
 * Nightrose drags claydoh back in :P
 * apachelogger is a fan of load distribution
<claydoh> I'm in :)
<Riddell> ok, I'll work out how to do that after the meeting
<claydoh> maybe a set of simple guidlines are needed?
<Riddell> good idea
<Nightrose> claydoh and i can try to work out an email to announce that if you want
<Riddell> please do
<claydoh> kubuntuforums is soo much easier to manage :)
<apachelogger> claydoh, Nightrose: get a set of guidelines under which cases a topic will be blocked
<apachelogger> and include it in the announcement so that everyone is instantly aware of what is "support"
<ryanakca> You'd probably have to repost them monthly... and link to them on the lists subscription page...
<claydoh> yes, many do that
<apachelogger> well, repost when they shift off topic again
<Nightrose> claydoh: ping me after the meeting if you have time then we can work something out
<Nightrose> next topic i guess?
<Riddell> which is apachelogger's topic
 * apachelogger had a hard time finding the right konqueror window
<claydoh> Nightrose: have to leave soon for my wife's class, won't ba back till very late
<apachelogger> earlier today some URLs were posted in which a 3rd party repo was advertised
<apachelogger> more precisely a 3rd party repo for KDE 3 on Intrepid
<Nightrose> claydoh: ok - tomorrow then?
<apachelogger> I am a bit concerned because these packages use an increased epoch in order to override the KDE 4 version
<apachelogger> so that everyone understands what I mean, the epoch is essentially the most important version number of a package
<apachelogger> the only way to supersed and epoch is by bumping it
<Nightrose> any contact from their or our side so far?
<JontheEchidna> none
<claydoh> nope
<Nightrose> \o/
<claydoh> I have suggested twice
<apachelogger> we use epoch 4, the KDE 3 packages use epoch 7, so eventually everyone who installs these packages doesn't only get 3rd party packages with various manual additions to our hardy packages
 * Nightrose loves communication
<apachelogger> so they loose the capability to upgrade properly
<seele> apachelogger: how widespread is its use?
<rgreening> omg. how lame is that
<Nightrose> this will cause major screwups with jaunty i assume?
<JontheEchidna> Nightrose: most likely
<apachelogger> seele: it was posted on ubuntuforums so it is _a lot_ I would say
<claydoh> according to the guy, 200 unique ip's downloaded
<seele> eek
<claydoh> but not sure how long ago
<Arby> jaunty -> jaunty +1 upgrades will likely explode
<Nightrose> there was a blogpost on puc about the new automatics
<Nightrose> maybe something like this is in order
<apachelogger> also communication wouldn't help much, there is no easy way out of this
<Nightrose> maybe not as harsh
<Nightrose> let me look for it
<apachelogger> if we help him get the packages done in a way that they don't need to have an epoch > ours it would break upgrades for the people who already installed it
<claydoh> do we invite them to our table?
<Arby> is it worth a response to the forum thread explaining the future consequences?
<Nightrose> Arby: definitel
<Nightrose> y
<Riddell> Arby: I'd say so
<apachelogger> most important for now
<claydoh> Arby: yes
<Nightrose> users assume this is safe
<smarter> also, some of his packaging seems frightening
<JontheEchidna> they should have made -kde3 packages instead of this epoch madness
 * rgreening thinks we need to communicae that they get no support if they do this.
<Arby> ok, I think I just volunteered
<apachelogger> JontheEchidna: exaclty, if he would have contacted us beforehand...
<smarter> I looked a bit into the forum thread and he said something like he couldn't just use PPA to build the source because he modified binary packages ::
<Tm_T> smarter: explain that somewhere, for the packager and for the users
<smarter> *:/
<Tm_T> smarter: WHAT?!
<smarter> not really understood what he meant
 * JontheEchidna faints
<claydoh> smarter: on kubuntuforums, he declined as he wanted total control
<Nightrose> http://www.advogato.org/person/mjg59/diary.html?start=164
 * smarter tries finding the post
<Nightrose> ^ this one
 * JontheEchidna thinks it should be exactly as harsh
 * claydoh disagrees
<apachelogger> well
<claydoh> not that harsh, but harsh
<seele> what's wrong with kde3 backports that people went and used this instead?
<apachelogger> we should nicely ask him to take the repo offline
<smarter> http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=6153716&postcount=88
<smarter> "I've had to do so much fiddling with the build environment that I doubt this will work. I want a place to upload the binaries (and source) that I have already built, tested, in some cases modified, and verified."
<apachelogger> until we resovled this properly
<rgreening> I agree with apachelogger, as a first step. then move to harsher if needed
<apachelogger> aye
<JontheEchidna> yeah, probably would be best
<Riddell> I suspect he won't take much notice
<Tm_T> rgreening: harsher would be...
<Nightrose> i still think we should make it very clear how dangerous this is
 * smarter still don't gets why people don't just stick with Hardy
<Tm_T> Riddell: but we must try
<apachelogger> seele: this one causes enroumous problems with upgrades to anything > 8.10
<Tm_T> Nightrose: that's a first priority I think
<smarter> if it's really needed, we could put a statement on kubuntu.org
<claydoh> smarter: they want the 'latest and greatest'kernel, xorg, yet want a stable system
<apachelogger> would be an option
<Nightrose> smarter: blog and forum should do i think
<seele> apachelogger: i get that.. i'm trying to understand why someone would use this repo instead of using the kde3 backports that scottk did
<smarter> and if KDE 3.5.11 is released and this guy tries to package it, he might very well causes some severe breakages
<Riddell> smarter: I think that would just attract attention to them
<Nightrose> seele: they want intrepid
<smarter> Riddell: good point
<Nightrose> and not stay with hardy
<apachelogger> seele: <claydoh> smarter: they want the 'latest and greatest'kernel, xorg, yet want a stable system
<claydoh> seele: probably didn't know about scottk's
<seele> is there any plan for 3.5.11?  3.5.10 was an afterthought and a weekend of coolo's time
<JontheEchidna> ScottK only made -kde3 packages for kdvi
<JontheEchidna> iirc
<apachelogger> yes
<Tm_T> seele: it will come, there were some good fixes right after .10 release
<Riddell> nothing about 3.5.11 on kde-packager or release-team recently
<apachelogger> techbase would know
<Nightrose> last i heard it wasn't a clear no but nothing besides that
<Tm_T> Riddell: prolly will take some time until it's "needed" even
<apachelogger> anyway, who is going to contact the repo dude?
<smarter> Riddell: is kde-packager an open list?
<apachelogger> Arby is going to post a comment to the forums thread
<apachelogger> smarter: no
<Riddell> smarter: no, it's super secret
<Arby> why? out of interest
<smarter> oh :/
<Riddell> because it's main use is to announce the secret pre-release of tars a week before the real release
<Arby> fair enough
 * apachelogger looks at smarter and thinks he would be perfect for contacting the repo dood
<ryanakca> apachelogger: imho, it might have a bit more of an impact if someone from the KCC contacted him that just a regular ol' member... *shrug*
<Nightrose> most impact would have a core dev imho
<apachelogger> meh
<Nightrose> ;-)
 * apachelogger will write tomorrow
 * Nightrose hands apachelogger a cookie
<claydoh> he was open to fixing his maintainer info in his early stuff
<claydoh> so he may be open to learning
 * apachelogger will also make sure he adds a 15 line signature stating all the things that make him important, just in case core dev is still not enough
<Nightrose> claydoh: still a lot of damage is done already probably :(
<claydoh> I agree
<apachelogger> it is
<apachelogger> resolving this is gonna be fun
<Nightrose> not
<apachelogger> :P
 * claydoh doen't want to watch
<apachelogger> I am finished
<Riddell> any other business?
<apachelogger> Any other stuff we might want to talk about?
<apachelogger> oh
 * seele can imagine ScottK having a seizure over this
<apachelogger> I actually have
<Tm_T> apachelogger:
<smarter> [22:50:26] <Nightrose> http://www.advogato.org/person/mjg59/diary.html?start=164
<smarter> that's pretty scary stuff
<apachelogger> today I got the latest issue of german LinuxUser magazine
<apachelogger> they had an article about KDE 4 goodiness
<JontheEchidna> oh yeah, I heard about that
<apachelogger> and stressed the fact that 4.1 comes with a cube
<apachelogger> so, where is my cube?! :P
<JontheEchidna> lol
 * Nightrose puts a cube next to apachelogger's cookies
<Nightrose> :P
 * apachelogger takes the cookie and hides inside the cube
<apachelogger> \o/
<apachelogger> happy
<Riddell> hold your breath for the 4.2 beta with full cubeiness
<Nightrose> yay
 * Nightrose holds breath and hopes beta 1 is released soon
<Riddell> if anyone is in France next week, let me know and I'll drop by
<Riddell> or western Germany for that matter
<apachelogger> smarter lives there
 * Nightrose is not too far from france ;-)
<apachelogger> Nightrose lives there
<Tm_T> Riddell: no but I'm some thousand kilometer north from there, like to visit us too? (;)
<Nightrose> Riddell: Karlsruhe if you are anywhere near
<apachelogger> hm
<apachelogger> lulz I guess
<Riddell> Tm_T: another trip I think
<Riddell> thanks for coming all
<Tm_T> (:)
<Nightrose> Riddell: Stuttgart works as well
<Nightrose> ;-)
<rgreening> cheers
 * Nightrose waves
<JontheEchidna> 2 hours, not bad ;-)
 * rgreening looks for food
 * ^seelenn^ looks for coffee
 * claydoh cooks dinner...
<apachelogger> nixternal: you are pretty good at guessing meeting time ;-)
<ryanakca> Cheers, supper time :D
 * Tm_T looks for his wife and the baby but cannot see them
<Nightrose> Tm_T: ohhhhhhhh
<Nightrose> the baby is born????
<Nightrose> congratulations!
<Tm_T> yup, saturday evening (:
<Tm_T> thanks
<Tm_T> both in hospital still, and I couldn't get in after school, was too late
<Tm_T> anyway ->
 * ^seelenn^ has coffee
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 19 Nov 17:00: QA Team | 19 Nov 18:00: Platform Team | 20 Nov 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 20 Nov 13:00: Desktop Team | 21 Nov 20:00: Tunisian LoCo Team IRC | 25 Nov 16:00: Server Team
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-11-19
<gmarzioz> #geologia
<Tm_T> ok
<mvo> @berlin
<juliux> @schedule berlin
<ubottu> Schedule for Europe/Berlin: 19 Nov 18:00: QA Team | 19 Nov 19:00: Platform Team | 20 Nov 13:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 20 Nov 14:00: Desktop Team | 21 Nov 21:00: Tunisian LoCo Team IRC | 25 Nov 17:00: Server Team
<juliux> ;)
<inetpro> @schedule Johannesburg
<ubottu> Schedule for Africa/Johannesburg: 19 Nov 19:00: QA Team | 19 Nov 20:00: Platform Team | 20 Nov 14:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 20 Nov 15:00: Desktop Team | 21 Nov 22:00: Tunisian LoCo Team IRC | 25 Nov 18:00: Server Team
<inetpro> @schedule Pretoria
<ubottu> Error: Unknown timezone: Pretoria - Full list: http://tinyurl.com/4vyvp8
<robbiew> hi all :)
<TheMuso> Hey robbiew.
<cjwatson> afternoon
 * cjwatson skates his activity report in just in time, whoops
<evand> hello
<robbiew> heh
<liw> hey
<liw> oh, activity report *blush*
<robbiew> cjwatson isn't the only one ;)
<robbiew> don't worry...I probably won't get to reading them to later this afternoon
<james_w> hi all
<cjwatson> good example and all that
<robbiew> multiple back-to-back meetings today...whoopee!
<robbiew> I'm showing slangasek at Lexington today, so not sure if he's showing up
<slangasek> if I can keep track of the clock
<slangasek> morning
<robbiew> doko, mvo: joining?
<robbiew> slangasek: :)...aren't timezones fun?
<slangasek> yes!
<TheMuso> robbiew: Too right they are. :p
<doko> robbiew: online
<robbiew> doko: good evening sir...thanks!
<robbiew> suppose I should start it
<robbiew> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:04. The chair is robbiew.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<robbiew> [TOPIC] Alpha 1
<MootBot> New Topic:  Alpha 1
<robbiew> forgot that on the agenda :P
<robbiew> figure we should at least mention it
<cjwatson> slangasek may have stuff to mention there, I certainly do
<slangasek> I see d-i has been uploaded, but ubiquity hasn't yet
<cjwatson> installer is now merged so theoretically we are ready to go with initial build testing; just doing an initial alternate CD build now
<cjwatson> evand is on ubiquity, I think ...
<slangasek> I think that's the main blocker; there's some kubuntu uninstallables that Riddell is working on
<cjwatson> I suspect that there will be some early failures
 * slangasek nods
<cjwatson> the GTK d-i frontend is merged and built but known broken
<cjwatson> (fails to boot with some inscrutable error message)
<cjwatson> I'll need to dig into that, but probably not for alph a1
<evand> ja, partitioning is broken in ubiquity.  I'm trying to get to the bottom of it.
<cjwatson> hm. not a surprise I guess. ping me if you need a hang
<cjwatson> hand
<evand> noted, thanks
<cjwatson> we could go for alternate-only, and indeed that might be sensible?
<cjwatson> we've done that in the past
<cjwatson> (and server)
<slangasek> that would be fine, if that's where we are
<slangasek> no sense in dragging out the milestone freeze for stuff that's just Not Ready Yet
<cjwatson> this is way earlier than we've ever done an alpha 1 before, as I've observed elsewhere
<robbiew> right...it is just an Alpha
<cjwatson> so I don't feel bad about it being partial
<cjwatson> particularly with armel consuming energy as well
<doko> armel already looks better than hppa =)
<cjwatson> :-)
<TheMuso> Thats not hard. :p
<slangasek> heh
<robbiew> anything else on this topic?
<robbiew> once...
<robbiew> twice...
<robbiew> gone!
<robbiew> [TOPIC] UDS
<MootBot> New Topic:  UDS
<robbiew> So I'm trying to at least organize blueprints for the roadmap items
<robbiew> and then we need address any other ideas from the team
<slangasek> is there a reference for the roadmap?
<slangasek> (URL)
<cjwatson> only internal at the moment, https://wiki.canonical.com/UbuntuPlatform/Roadmaps/9.04
<cjwatson> there's also some stuff linked off wiki.u.c/FoundationsTeam
<robbiew> thnx
 * slangasek nods
<robbiew> yeah, I plan on creating at list of our specific blueprints for the public wiki as well
<robbiew> you can see them all at https://blueprints.launchpad.net/sprints/uds-jaunty
<robbiew> with the schedule located here: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-jaunty/
 * mvo is here, sorry for being late
<doko> ok, I should add one ... python will be fun this cycle
<robbiew> np
<robbiew> perfect timing
 * mvo is confused "19 Nov 18:00: Platform Team" <- according to topic?
<cjwatson> if you already have ideas for the blueprints robbiew has created, there's no harm dropping them into a clearly-marked section at the end of the spec now
<cjwatson> mvo: the fridge calendar is ... not exactly 100% accurate sometimes
<cjwatson> I'll mail ubuntu-news-team after the meeting to get it corrected
<mvo> thanks!
<robbiew> mvo: discussing UDS session topics...you had some good ideas
 * mvo should have used his google calendar
<mvo> alpha-1> I enabled release-upgrades for it "update-manager -d" should work
<mvo> uds topics> python is going to be interessting, I would be interessted in porting my stuff to python2.6 (to prepare for 3.0)
<cjwatson> likewise
<liw> I'd be interested in helping port Python stuff to 2.6
 * mvo has a terrible long list of ideas
<doko> I'm almost sure that I can't do this alone
<robbiew> one thing to keep in mind for this release, is the bug fixing effort...so we have to be mindful of how much feature work we plan for
<mvo> one of the cool things that came up recently in debian is screenshots.debian.net - it would be cool if we could discuss something like this at uds and maybe talk to the debian people behind it
<doko> another: please have better interaction for archive rebuilds / ftbfs packages during the release cycle
<cjwatson> doko: indeed I think it would be unwise for you to try to do so - half the point of python 2.6 is to get people used to the newer constructs they need to use, isn't it?
<doko> cjwatson: well, 2.5->2.6 looks easier than 2.4 -> 2.5. there are some source changes needed (new keywords, but these are fairly simple to solve)
<cjwatson> has_key becomes deprecated IIRC
<cjwatson> foo.has_key(bar) -> bar in foo
<cjwatson> (which you can do in 2.x anyway of course)
<mvo> "with" becomes a keyword
<cjwatson> can we aim for only 2.6 on the CD for jaunty?
<doko> yes, trying ...
<liw> is zope still 2.4 only?
<doko> zope2
<liw> oh, but it's not on the cd, never mind
<cjwatson> if you're using "with" as a variable name, mind you, I think that's a little odd :)
<doko> but should we care about it?
<mvo> doko: how much is C api going to change (if at all)?
<doko> not that much, its better than the 2.5 change
 * mvo nods
<robbiew> ok...assuming that discussion is done :)
<robbiew> anything else regarding UDS planning?
<mvo> can we still add topic suggestions to the wiki? or is it too late now?
<robbiew> not too late...but getting close
<mvo> ok, thanks
<robbiew> I'm thinking Friday should be the last day
<robbiew> with a short week in the US coming up...then another with FOSSCamp
<robbiew> need to get the Specs started
<robbiew> ok...next on the agenda is bugs
<robbiew> [TOPIC] Bugs
<MootBot> New Topic:  Bugs
<robbiew> don't think there's much to cover here
<slangasek> is "hotkey madness" explicitly on the UDS schedule anywhere?
<cjwatson> I gave robbiew the usual bug links
 * TheMuso remembers seeing stuff re acpi/power management... I think
<cjwatson> jaunty alpha 1 is https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/jaunty/+bugs?field.milestone%3Alist=2209
<slangasek> not power management, just hotkeys...
<cjwatson> just the one there
<cjwatson> slangasek: yes, it's on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/UDS/December2008
<slangasek> ok
<mvo> what does "EPR" mean?
<cjwatson> where's that?
<mvo> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/jaunty/+source/update-manager/+bug/284408
<robbiew> where do you see that?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 284408 in update-manager "r3xx Hardware does not work with fglrx [EPR#257839]" [Medium,In progress]
<cjwatson> I think it might be an AMD code
<cjwatson> check with bryce
<mvo> aha, thanks
<cjwatson> yes, bryce said: "This issue has been forwarded to AMD as EPR#257839."
<robbiew> probably their internal bug tracking
<liw> "external problem report" perhaps?
<robbiew> ;)
<robbiew> ok, so for bugs...the usual...watch yours and any hot ones that come across
 * mvo will take care of the update-manager one
<cjwatson> there are one or two of https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/jaunty/+bugs that are worth cleaning up anyway
<robbiew> [TOPIC] Sponsorship Queue
<MootBot> New Topic:  Sponsorship Queue
<cjwatson> I'll take the lintian one
<cjwatson> and maybe klibc if I have time
<robbiew> k, thnx
 * TheMuso got onto main-sponsors yesterday so will be able to more actively help out with sponsoring, so far as cleaning up bugs on the queue goes.
 * liw still can't sponsor anything, but is going to apply for UCD tonight/tomorrow
<cjwatson> yeah, it's time to get back into the sponsorship queue now that merges are nearly out of the way
<robbiew> cool..thnx sir!
<slangasek> I've been less than effective at sponsorship this week (i.e., didn't get any done)
<robbiew> james_w is a sponsoring beast!
<cjwatson> slangasek: I think you have an excuse, being in Lex
<slangasek> I suppose :)
<robbiew> yep, agree
<robbiew> ok...moving right along
<robbiew> [TOPIC] Activity Reports
<MootBot> New Topic:  Activity Reports
<robbiew> I haven't had a chance to review all of them yet...since most came in today :P
<robbiew> anything anyone wants to mention here?
<robbiew> that CAN be mentioned here ;)
<cjwatson> I wanted to mention http://people.ubuntu.com/~ubuntu-archive/architecture-mismatches.txt as another tool for archive admins
<cjwatson> it's empty at the moment because I dealt with it :)
<cjwatson> but it reports problems where overrides have got out of sync between architectures for some reason, which happens occasionally due to Soyuz bugs
<slangasek> I'm sure I'll forget that url... is it linked from somewhere?
<cjwatson> I'll put it on the wiki if I can remember where the other *-mismatches are listed
<slangasek> ok :)
<cjwatson> ArchiveAdministration I guess
<slangasek> or https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/PackageArchive#Consistency
<cjwatson> none of the other *-mismatches were there though
<cjwatson> I put it on ArchiveAdministration but feel free to add it elsewhere
<slangasek> ok
<cjwatson> (under "Useful web pages")
<cjwatson> [that's all from me]
<robbiew> heh...shouldn't they all be "useful"?
<robbiew> that's all for me as well
<robbiew> [TOPIC] AOB
<MootBot> New Topic:  AOB
<robbiew> anything else folks want to cover?
<cjwatson> good news: I found a way to ditch 3MB+ of data from the CD ... bad news: I think I might want to add the GTK d-i frontend, which is 10MB+
<cjwatson> maybe I'll only add it on the server CD for the moment, which has plenty of space
<cjwatson> also, lots of people here should be well able to help out with fixing misc build failures in the armel port in progress
<cjwatson> as doko said it's actually doing reasonably well with uninstallables at the moment, but still several more to fix
<cjwatson> if you're interested, hop onto #ubuntu-arm
 * mvo joins
<cjwatson> you don't necessarily need hardware, I don't have any
<TheMuso> cjwatson: If you could give me a heads up as to what needs to be done seed wise for the gtk installer, I am happy to look into putting things in place for studio to use it as well.
<doko> I tagged some of them ftbfs-armel
<mvo> cjwatson: how do you test it, do you use qemu-system-arm?
<mvo> what kind of failures are that usually?
<NCommander> mvo, you can't use qemu-system-arm out of the box
<cjwatson> TheMuso: will do once I work it out myself; no great rush since it doesn't actually work yet
<doko> and please ping a buildd admin to rescore fixed builds
<NCommander> It doesn't target new EABI ARM
<cjwatson> mvo: a number of the failures are reproducible on i386, and only haven't bitten it because we haven't rebuilt the package in question for a while
<cjwatson> or reproducible if you set up some special situation, or obvious for some other reasson
<cjwatson> reason
<ogra> mvo, if you need something tested, feel free to poke me
<NCommander> mvo, or me
<ogra> or NCommander :)
<mvo> excellent!
<cjwatson> I think there are three people on #ubuntu-arm now who've confessed to having a working bootstrap
<NCommander> We're making excellent progress, we cleared gtk's build-deps, and I kicked mono and fixed it last night
<cjwatson> it's all very early port days, exciting if you're a weirdo like me who happens to enjoy that kind of thing ;-)
 * mvo thinks that sounds like fun, but having a VM with a "real" arm system would be even more fun :)
 * NCommander loves porting work
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: QA Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 19 Nov 18:00: Platform Team | 20 Nov 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 20 Nov 13:00: Desktop Team | 21 Nov 20:00: Tunisian LoCo Team IRC | 25 Nov 16:00: Server Team
<liw> is there going to be a qemu-system-arm that works out of the box?
<NCommander> I feel like I'm back on Debian :-P
<cjwatson> we should have access to a bit more hardware soon, hopefully involving a porting box in the DC
<NCommander> liw, no, but I can merge the arm eabi patches into our QEMU, but they're still somewhat experimental
<TheMuso> A porting box would be good.
<doko> cjwatson: I think we should disable the debian archive soonish (e.g. once the kde stuff can be built)
<cjwatson> we're just a bit short of hardware right now
<cjwatson> doko: I agree, really needs infinity to get back though
<cjwatson> which I think is soon
<cjwatson> we'll get by for the moment, I think
<NCommander> doko, I have a patch to clear the KDE FTBFS, I'm simply watching to make sure I haven't broke i386/amd64 first
<doko> NCommander: very nice!
<NCommander> doko, I did this for m68k ;-)
<NCommander> We've got X11's build-deps cleared; I won't be suprised if we can install ubuntu-desktop relatively soon
<doko> NCommander: then please fix gnat and openjdk for m68k as well ;p
<TheMuso> As soon as pulseaudio has its libltdl weirdness sorted out at least.
<NCommander> gnat on m68k requires a bootstrap, I already did one, but I had trouble getting the actual Debian packages to compile once I candian-crossed the compiler
<NCommander> openjdk has an in-progress port, it needed some helper functions
<NCommander> ^- doko
<liw> I think we're running out of time
<robbiew> yep..anything else?
<robbiew> once...
<robbiew> twice...
<robbiew> #endmeeting
<robbiew> :)
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:55.
<doko> robbiew: well done for the first meeting :0)
<evand> thanks!
<robbiew> thanks!
<liw> thanks
<TheMuso> Thanks,
<mvo> thanks
<robbiew> doko: thanks :)
<NCommander> I should sit in on more foundation teams meetings, its an interesting experience
<james_w> thanks all
<robbiew> lol
<robbiew> NCommander: glad you enjoyed it
 * heno waves
<pedro_> hello everybody!
<heno> bdmurray, ogasawara, sbeattie, schwuk: meeting ping
 * ogasawara waves
<bdmurray> hi
<heno> ara is on holiday
<sbeattie> hey
 * ogasawara forgot to add some items to the agenda
<heno> ogasawara: go for it
<heno> ok, let's start
<NCommander> this is the QA team meeting, right?
<sbeattie> NCommander: correct
<heno> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 11:04. The chair is heno.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<heno> [TOPIC] UDS topics
<MootBot> New Topic:  UDS topics
 * schwuk waves (with cup of tea in *other* hand)
 * NCommander has a request of the QA team once there is a moment to bring up new business
<heno> I've talked with several of you about UDS topic ideas
<heno> please add them to https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/sprints/uds-jaunty/+specs
<heno> shall we agree on a naming convention? qa-* say
<davmor2> Hi
<sbeattie> heno: doh. Can they be renamed? :-)
<heno> I'll flush out https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Specs and we'll track them there
<heno> sbeattie: yes, I think so
<sbeattie> good. I'm fine with a qa- prefix
<heno> (perhaps only drivers can do that?)
<heno> sbeattie: ok, page flushed
<heno> [TOPIC] Alpha 1 testing
<MootBot> New Topic:  Alpha 1 testing
<heno> We are in alpha 'freeze' now and expect new images tomorrow I guess
<heno> we need to give them a quick sanity test
<heno> cr3: is your daily build testing machinery running normally now?
<james_w> likely to be alternate-only
<heno> davmor2: can you take a few alternates for a spin tomorrow?
<heno> james_w: ok, thanks
<cr3> heno: I haven't touched it in a while and I haven't seen any images on cdimage either yesterday or the day before, I actually checked manually
<heno> we'll coordinate in #ubuntu-testing as usual
<davmor2> heno: might be able to when I get back home
<cr3> heno: there seems to be images though, so I'll see what's going on
<heno> cr3: ok. alpha 1 is always a bit uncertain
<cr3> heno: ok, best effort then
<heno> yep
<heno> [TOPIC] The 2.6.27.3 and 2.6.27.4 kernel stable patch sets
<MootBot> New Topic:  The 2.6.27.3 and 2.6.27.4 kernel stable patch sets
<heno> ogasawara: ^
<ogasawara> I just wanted to note that those patch sets are in the kernel sitting in intrepid-proposed
<ogasawara> if there are any major regressions, let me know
<sbeattie> where's 2.6.27.5 in the process (is it released yet?)
<pedro_> anything special that'd require more testing?
<heno> cr3 is working on getting some testing for proposed
<ogasawara> sbeattie: bug 296500 is the SRU for 2.6.27.5 - not released yet or even accepted to -proposed
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 296500 in linux "Update to 2.6.27.5 stable kernel" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/296500
<ogasawara> pedro_: I'm happy with boot tests for the most part
<cr3> ogasawara: when is 2.6.27.6 due?
<cr3> ogasawara: in other words, should I be testing 2.6.27.5 asap?
<ogasawara> cr3: 2.6.27.6 is already out - bug 297885
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 297885 in linux "Update to 2.6.27.6 stable kernel" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/297885
<ogasawara> 2.6.27.7 is under review
<heno> schwuk: he'll add a proposed flag in the submission data base; can you filter on that and make a proposed report?
<schwuk> heno: as long as I can filter out the results we want, sure.
<ogasawara> cr3: let me rephrase, 2.6.27.6 has been released upstream and we're still in the process of getting it through the SRU process
<cr3> schwuk: it'll be a bit hacked for now until we find a better way, it's not very clear in my mind yet
<heno> ogasawara: so you recommend that we test with .3 and .4 now and not wait for .5 .6 and .7 to land in proposed?
<cr3> ogasawara: I mean, when is 2.6.27.6 due in -proposed?
<cr3> ogasawara: nevermind, heno's question is better
<ogasawara> cr3: yes, please test .3 and .4 which are in intrepid-proposed right now.  I think the plan is to get those through first before uploading .5, .6, and .7
<heno> ok, thanks. we'll do that
<heno> also, everyone is encouraged to enable proposed!
<heno> [TOPIC] Jaunty Bug Lists
<MootBot> New Topic:  Jaunty Bug Lists
<ogasawara> with a focus on fixing bugs for the Jaunty devel cycle, does anyone have any interest in us generating Jaunty bug lists?
<ogasawara> for certain packages
<sbeattie> ogasawara: similar to your kernel buglists?
<ogasawara> we'd attempted something similar with the Hardy cycle by tagging bugs in launchpad but I'm unsure how successful it went
<heno> and/or for certain teams?
<ogasawara> sbeattie: I think maintaining it via launchpad would be better
<heno> ogasawara: this may be a better point in the cycle to do it
<heno> bdmurray suggested using package maintenance in LP as a guide
<heno> we need to find some low-touch way of generating them, that does not involve hand-picking
<heno> esp in areas we have no core expertise
<heno> using the regressions list seems good, high subscriber count and comment count
<heno> should we generate some lists automatically and then hand-sort from those?
<ogasawara> so we really could just advertise use of the status pages since they contain that info?
<bdmurray> We've talked about revisiting ones with a high or critical importance to ensure they are still relevant and looking at missed milestones.
<bdmurray> not everything is listed on the status pages though
<ogasawara> bdmurray: true
<heno> I think a real list of bug numbers is useful
<heno> we've talked about using a tag sop it could all be stored in LP
<heno> qa-jaunty-list ?
<bdmurray> Maybe we should see how many bugs there are in each specific area to get an idea of how many bugs we are talking about
<ogasawara> bdmurray: that would be good.  that could also help measure the progress that gets made
<heno> bdmurray: what do you mean by area in this case?
<bdmurray> like 20 critical bugs in Ubuntu, 500 high bugs, 100 bugs that are targetted for later ....
<heno> bdmurray: ok
<bdmurray> then we can determine which lists need some refining
<heno> bdmurray: can you collect that and then work with ogasawara to create some preliminary lists?
<bdmurray> yes
<heno> fwiw I have another conf call about this on Friday 17.30 UTC
<heno> bdmurray: please join me on that if you're around
<heno> great, moving on
<heno> any other business?
<heno> NCommander: ^
<NCommander> I wanted to ask the QA team on the possibility of released Xfce 4.4.3 via updates to Intrepid and Hardy
<NCommander> (the current release is 4.4.2 on both)
<heno> so that would be an SRU - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates
<heno> we are not really the gatekeepers for that
<cody-somerville> Yea
<cody-somerville> I decide that
<heno> and the archive admin / release teams :)
<heno> oh, sorry it's in universe now
<heno> cody-somerville: are you on the motu-sru team?
<cody-somerville> Yes.
<cody-somerville> And I'm the Xubuntu project lead.
<heno> indeed
<heno> NCommander: so there is your answer :)
<NCommander> Cody wanted me to run this by the QA team
 * NCommander nods
<heno> we can help give it a test from proposed of course
<heno> any other other business?
<bdmurray> What is the difference between 4.4.3 and 4.4.2?  Is it primarily a bug fix release?
<james_w> I have something I would like to discuss
<heno> james_w: go ahead
<james_w> specifically QA of packages that are in Ubuntu but not in Debian
<heno> bughelper, checkbox, what else?
<schwuk> heno: was just thinking of checkbox :)
<heno> apport counts I guess
<james_w> we have around 800 packages in universe that are not in Debian, and we don't have the QA we get from packages maintained in Debian.
<bdmurray> python-launchpad-bugs ;)
<heno> ah, QA _of_ packages
<bdmurray> james_w: is that list available somewhere?
<heno> sorry, misread that
<james_w> http://paste.ubuntu.com/74424/
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://paste.ubuntu.com/74424/
<schwuk> james_w: is there an effort to get those packages into Debian, or is that what you're wanting to discuss?
<james_w> there is not much effort, and that would be one good thing to happen
<james_w> getting 800 packages in to Debian is not going to be a quick thing though, so I would like to discuss what to do in the meantime
<NCommander> bdmurray, yes, its a bug fix release (there was one new feature added to xfwm4 however)
<james_w> http://paste.ubuntu.com/74425/
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://paste.ubuntu.com/74425/
<james_w> that's the number of open bugs per package
<james_w> and the number of people that subscribe to the bug mail of each package
<james_w> so there are not that many bugs reported against these packages
<heno> james_w: what sort of QA is needed in your view? testing, triage, lintian/piuparts?
<james_w> that's really my question.
<heno> a bug day to look into the state of them further perhaps?
<james_w> We don't have much visibility in to the quality of these packages, so in the QA team's opinion what would be the most valuable and worthwhile things to do to make sure that we are not shipping bad packages from this set
<schwuk> heno: Isn't 800 a lot for a single day?
<sbeattie> james_w: hrm, as a process thing going forward, I wonder if the submitter of the package should be auto-subscribed to that package's bugs, as a "you added it, you get to maintain it"
<james_w> heno: yes, a bug day for the un-triaged open bugs would be a good idea I think
<james_w> sbeattie: yes, I would advocate that policy, I don't know if it is possible to do it automatically.
<james_w> sbeattie: when I sponsor a new package I immediately point the submitter to the package page with a hint that they should subscribe
<heno> schwuk: looks like less than 800 bugs to me
<heno> the package with 82 bugs is worth looking at though :)
<bdmurray> james_w: couldn't some of these be removed off the list like python-launchpadlib ...
<sbeattie> james_w: something else that may be of interest: correlating the packages with popcon numbers
<james_w> sbeattie: that would be yes
<schwuk> heno: I was referring to the package count, the bug count is a lot lower :)
<james_w> bdmurray: well, that one is superbly maintained :-)
<bdmurray> I think there are some others like that too.
<heno> schwuk: right, but we can get a machine to list just the bugs ;)
<james_w> I'm happy to keep toying with this to see what I can find, and I'll keep you posted on the results.
<james_w> I think a bug day is a good idea though, so I can help to set it up if it is desired
<heno> james_w: are you happy to put together a bug day list with help from people here?
<bdmurray> james_w: What action would we take if there is an important bug and no subscribers to the bug reports?
<heno> assign whoever touched it last :)
<james_w> bdmurray: good question. Add it to a list of targets I guess, do we have such a thing?
<bdmurray> that contradicts the assignment should be taken not given policy
<james_w> we could make it RC and then try and encourage more use of RC in universe
<heno> very true
<bdmurray> james_w: and then if not fixed have package removed?
<james_w> bdmurray: if the bug is serious enough
<heno> debian style RC policy, interesting
<james_w> RC with no milestone if not, so that it is flagged as a "target of opportunity"
<heno> right, let's start with a bug day on this
<heno> anything else (in 2 min)?
<bdmurray> james_w: do you mean release targetted with no milestone?
<davmor2> I need to sod off now.  So I'll try and get some testing in tomorrow night when I get home.  I'll be around all day friday to get some in.  TTYL
<james_w> I'm also toying with the idea of subscribing ~motu to all the packages, bar a few, so that bugs get sent to the mailing list, but I'm not sure that's a good idea.
<james_w> bdmurray: yes, sorry.
<james_w> thanks for your time
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Platform Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 20 Nov 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 20 Nov 13:00: Desktop Team | 21 Nov 20:00: Tunisian LoCo Team IRC | 25 Nov 16:00: Server Team
<heno> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 12:00.
<heno> thanks everyone!
<cr3> cheerio
<schwuk> thanks heno
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Platform Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 20 Nov 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 20 Nov 13:00: Desktop Team | 21 Nov 20:00: Tunisian LoCo Team IRC | 25 Nov 16:00: Server Team | 25 Nov 17:00: Kernel Team
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 20 Nov 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 20 Nov 13:00: Desktop Team | 21 Nov 20:00: Tunisian LoCo Team IRC | 25 Nov 16:00: Server Team | 25 Nov 17:00: Kernel Team | 26 Nov 17:00: QA Team
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-11-20
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Ubuntu Mobile Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 20 Nov 13:00: Desktop Team | 21 Nov 20:00: Tunisian LoCo Team IRC | 25 Nov 16:00: Server Team | 25 Nov 17:00: Kernel Team | 26 Nov 17:00: QA Team
<davidm> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 06:00. The chair is davidm.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<davidm> StevenK, persia ogra lool you all about?
<Hobbsee> they all snuck off to the pub, apparently.
 * ogra looks up half ducked behind a chair ... 
 * StevenK waves
<davidm> ian_brasil are you here?
 * ogra feels bad about being such a slacker with the reports 
<ogra> sorry to all ...
<persia> \o
<davidm> OK, I don't really expect lool this morning as he is traveling and in a tough location to join in today
 * persia digs about for the agenda
<davidm> OK on the agenda for today we have : davidm to add session for UDS on "Discussion on hardware support status for devices roundtable."
<persia> Oops.  Sorry for stealing that one.
<davidm>  which is complete, I did it and persia did it. ;-)
<Hobbsee> \o/
<davidm> well it's very well done.
 * persia still needs to upload the "Complete Specification"
<davidm> the second item is also done: persia to write a spec for UDS on using a display manager for MID
<davidm> persia, I added that to the schedule for UDS
<davidm> that was all the prior actions
<davidm> for new business:
<davidm> [topic] new business
<MootBot> New Topic:  new business
<davidm> [topic] Spec Review: anyone have any specs they want for Jaunty that aren't on the jaunty schedule?
<MootBot> New Topic:  Spec Review: anyone have any specs they want for Jaunty that aren't on the jaunty schedule?
<davidm> brought to us by persia :-)
<persia> https://launchpad.net/sprints/uds-jaunty/+specs is the current list.  Check and make sure.
<persia> There's a bunch of recommendations on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Mobile/IntrepidPlusOneSpecSuggestions that I didn't see there.
<persia> missing ones seem mostly to be lool and ian_brasil, but neither seems to be here today.
<ogra> isnt mid-screen-rotation rather about general bugfixing ?
<ogra> the gnome resolution dialog already has the UI bits for that
<persia> Not intended that way (although I also have to upload more description).  It's because there doesn't seem to be a good app for that, and screen rotation is something I expect to just work on a MID.
<persia> Maybe we just need to include that in MID: that's the point of the session.
<ogra> so you want a non gnome specific app ?
<ogra> ah
<ogra> k
<davidm> please target blueprints to ubuntu-mobile if they are for the mobile track
<persia> davidm, As a project?
<davidm> [link] https://launchpad.net/sprints/uds-jaunty/+specs
<persia> davidm, Why that, rather than "ubuntu"?
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://launchpad.net/sprints/uds-jaunty/+specs
<davidm> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Mobile/IntrepidPlusOneSpecSuggestions
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Mobile/IntrepidPlusOneSpecSuggestions
<davidm> persia,  makes it quite easy to see what they are for?
<ogra> well, that has to hapen at registration afaik
 * persia wishes harder for a general cleanup of the blueprints interface
<ogra> yeah
<ogra> i dont think you can change it post registration
<ogra> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/gfxboot-like-menu-for-mobile-images would be one
<davidm> Ah, well new ones then and I'll retarget the old ones
<persia> No.  That part of LP has aged for a bit.
<persia> davidm, Not sure if you can, but good luck.
<davidm> I can, just did for one
<davidm> Yep works for me :-)
<davidm> just changed https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/gfxboot-like-menu-for-mobile-images to ubuntu-mobile
<StevenK> Ah, that reminds me.
<davidm> but new ones would be nicer that way, much harder to miss
<ogra> yeah
<ogra> priority for that one is unset now btw
<StevenK> davidm: gfxboot-like-menu-for-mobile-images and mid-jaunty-boot-menu is the same. Set mid-jaunty-boot-menu to Obselete or something similar
<ogra> (was "high"
<ogra> )
<persia> It was Obsolete last I saw, although it ought get rejected from the sprint schedule.
 * davidm grunps but fixed  gfxboot-like-menu-for-mobile-images
<persia> Huh?  It swiched back?
 * davidm will make  mid-jaunty-boot-menu obsolete 
<ogra> looks fine to me now
<davidm> OK done
<davidm> anyway do we have anymore business on the topic?
<ogra> we should also make sure we subscribe to the ones we want to go to btw
<ogra> its important for the scheduler
<ogra> (at least it was in the past, it tries to resolve conflicts if possible)
<persia> More than anything, I just wanted to highlight things.  The people who I wanted to highlight them to are not present, so we can move on.
<davidm> it is, very important so please subscribe this week
<ogra> i.e. i want to be in all the bootspeed ones ...
<ogra> so i subbed to them
<davidm> [topic] Alpha 1 images: Do we need to do anything for Alpha 1 testing, or shall we defer image testing until Alpha 2?
<MootBot> New Topic:  Alpha 1 images: Do we need to do anything for Alpha 1 testing, or shall we defer image testing until Alpha 2?
<davidm> StevenK, do we have Alpha 1 images or is Image creation broken right now?
<persia> So, last I heard, our images didn't quite work, and the installer wasn't quite ready.
 * ogra votes for the latter
<persia> In the Foundations meeting, there was talk about making Alpha 1 d-i only (alternate CDs), but I don't remember the conclusion.  If this happens, we're straight out.
<davidm> Seem to have lost StevenK
<StevenK> I'm here
<StevenK> Right, image creation needs a little more work
<StevenK> So, defer
<davidm> deferred
<persia> OK.  That's the end of my items then :)
<davidm> yep, on to general status from each of us
<davidm> [Status] StevenK
<davidm> [topic] Status StevenK
<MootBot> New Topic:  Status StevenK
 * davidm can barely type this morning
<davidm> StevenK, any news?
<StevenK> I have been working on image creation, and am nearly completed
<davidm> StevenK, Do you have any merges?
<StevenK> Yes. I need to keep looking at them.
<davidm> StevenK, anything else?
 * davidm thinks the string to OZ must be wet.
<StevenK> Sorry, it's been a long day and I'm extremly tired
<StevenK> Not that I can think of
<davidm> OK
<davidm> [topic] status ogra?
<MootBot> New Topic:  status ogra?
<ogra> * spec regitration
<ogra> * ending merges: moodle
<ogra> *pending even
<ogra> apart from that i'm doing ARM 12-14h/day since monday
<ogra> nothing else mobile related
<davidm> thanks ogra :-)
<davidm> [topic] status persia?
<MootBot> New Topic:  status persia?
<persia> Still need to merge matchbox-keyboard, and complete/upload spec descriptions for the raft of registered specs.
<ogra> wikipages with SpecTemplate are enough
<ogra> you can flesh it out later
<persia> It may come to that, but I hope to have a bit more.
<ogra> well, copy paste the description :)
<ogra> you will write them only after UDS anyway
<ogra> but having the wikipage for the gobby notes helps durign discussion
<davidm> persia, anything else?
<persia> Well, the goal is to have a couple use cases, etc. documented in the next couple days.
<persia> No, that's it for me.
<davidm> OK thanks
<davidm> [topic] status davidm
<MootBot> New Topic:  status davidm
<davidm> I've been working on UDS, getting blueprints set and working the schedule.  Also working on recruiting as we have 5 open positions currently.
<Hobbsee> wow!
<davidm> Also have been working on things related to ARM with the rest of my time
<davidm> And meetings continue to eat my time ;-/
<davidm> Anyway that is the long and short of it.
<davidm> [topic] new business - opens
<MootBot> New Topic:  new business - opens
<davidm> I don't see anything else on the agenda
<davidm> does anyone have anything?
<davidm> or I'm happy to close the meeting early
 * lool reads backlog and waves
<davidm> hi lool
<ogra> hey lool
 * persia wants to subscribe to lool's specs
<Hobbsee> davidm: seeing as you appear to be short on people at the moment, what do you most need done?
<lool> I wanted to tell you folks that I wanted to register my specs yesterday evening, but crashed to bed and will to do during the day today
<davidm> lool, thanks
<ogra> Hobbsee, he needs someone to go to all the meetings for him :P
<lool> Hobbsee: You mean on any topic?  There's so much to be done
<davidm> Hobbsee, we are shorthanded for folks with ARM skills and folks that know how to write commercial style test plans and automate QA testing
<Hobbsee> lool: I had no specific topic in mind
<davidm> there is a lot to be done
<lool> Hobbsee: One thing which is hard to do and requires help from everybody is to save boot time
<lool> Another similar cross-package effort is the boot beautification
<Hobbsee> hmmm
 * persia would most like to see the test cases for MID and UMPC cleaned up
<lool> Basically, we want systems to boot very fast and nicely
<lool> And we're far from that
<lool> One way could be upstart, there are some other ways
<StevenK> Sure, but we should discuss that at UDS first
<lool> I think we could slim down mobile boots futher
<ogra> drop initramfs :)
<lool> Yeah, this is all UDS stuff
<Hobbsee> right
<persia> Well, except the test cases.  Just something based on intrepid would be a *great* start.
<lool> I wanted to hint at these two topics because I know Hobbsee wont show up next week with "What's next?"" ;)
<lool> It's probably a two cycles effort to see some large improvement in these areas
<Hobbsee> lool: well, i won't show up to your meeting at all next week, as i'll have an exam the morning after, iirc ;)
<lool> Hobbsee: Good excuse
<lool> Hobbsee: We'll hunt you down
<Hobbsee> oh dear.
<lool> down to the exam room
<ogra> hehe
<lool> "What about my boot time"
<Hobbsee> it would be much easier if you just waited till UDS...
<StevenK> Then she'll ask us to help with the paper
<lool> Hobbsee: You're coming to UDS I guess, we should discuss this over there
<Hobbsee> StevenK: excellent idea!
<Hobbsee> lool: true
<Hobbsee> davidm: quick!  This is your chance to end the meeting! ;)
 * persia likes short meetings
<davidm> ian_brasil,  ian_brasil_ do you have any specs you are planning to register for this jaunty?
<ogra> he has one proposal on the wikipage ...
<davidm> Hobbsee, I'm trying ;-)
<persia> He also pointed at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UMEGuide/ApplicationDevelopment/GPSEnabledWebApplication
<davidm> I heard a rumor he had some more he was interested in
<persia> (which probably belongs on wiki.ubuntu.com rather than help.ubuntu.com, but that's a side issue)
<ogra> persia, i'd like to package maemo mapper
<davidm> but since there is no comments I'll say:
<persia> ogra, Please do.
<davidm> closing meeting going once...........................................................
<ogra> yeah, need to find a clean upstream :)
<davidm> endmeeting going twice...................
<Hobbsee> and gone!
<davidm> [endmeeting]
<persia> #
<lool> #endmeeting
<davidm> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 06:51.
<davidm> I always get that wrong
<davidm> Thanks everyone
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Desktop Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 21 Nov 20:00: Tunisian LoCo Team IRC | 25 Nov 16:00: Server Team | 25 Nov 17:00: Kernel Team | 26 Nov 17:00: QA Team
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Desktop Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 21 Nov 20:00: Tunisian LoCo Team IRC | 25 Nov 16:00: Server Team | 25 Nov 17:00: Kernel Team | 26 Nov 17:00: QA Team | 26 Nov 22:00: Platform Team
<persia> Who's here for the Java meeting?
<Koon> o/
<slytherin> me
<persia> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 08:02. The chair is persia.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<persia> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JavaTeam/Meeting
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JavaTeam/Meeting
<persia> Just as a reminder, adding specific items to the meeting agenda might interest others, for wider discussion.
<persia> Anyway.
<persia> [TOPIC] RoadMap
<MootBot> New Topic:  RoadMap
<persia> robilad is missing, so we'll skip that.
<persia> slytherin, MoveToUniverse
<slytherin> going on fine. These days Debian is in freeze, so not many packages are moving to universe.
<persia> Are we caught up with Debian now?
<slytherin> I am working on some merges/syncs and will propose move to universe where appropriate
<slytherin> we are not yet cause up completely.
<persia> OK.  Anything else on this?
<slytherin> nope.
<persia> Koon, Maven
<Koon> someone (Ludovic Claude) started up an implementation
<Koon> https://code.launchpad.net/~ludovicc/+junk/maven-packaging-support
<persia> Cool!
<Koon> He is a Java guy, so I'll be helping him with debian packaging
<persia> Is he on IRC?  Maybe he'd like to join the meetings?
<Koon> He should "fix" the spec as soon as he has the tools running
<Koon> I proposed him to come, but I suspect it's occuring at work hours for him
<Koon> given the time his email are sent :)
<slytherin> Koon: how hard do you think it will be for him to put packages in java team ppa?
<persia> Using the PPA like that might be a handy way to stage stuff.
<Koon> slytherin: I'll be pushing him to do that... will be easier for me to fix the debian part
<slytherin> Koon: I am interested to help as well.
<Koon> in parallel, I intend to start the basic packaging effort described in the spe
<Koon> spec, even
<Koon> so as to have a few model packages that we can replicate to novice packagers
<Koon> so all in all it's in good shape, and I'm happy to have some Java guy fixing the tools spec
<persia> Excellent news.  Jaunty is a reasonable target for this?
<Koon> persia: yes, that's the goal.
<persia> Anything else on Maven?
<Koon> no
<persia> OK.  Next, slytherin added "Kill Sun Java 5 in Jaunty" to the Roadmap.  That raises two questions.
<persia> First how do we want to add new items to the roadmap.  Is this the right procedure, or should we raise them in a meeting first?
<Koon> I'd say we should present the ideas as a meeting item first.
<persia> slytherin, What's your opinion about that?
<Koon> and roadmap should consist of discussed/somewhat-approved items
<slytherin> persia: I am fine with either way.
 * Koon updates the status of Maven on the roadmap
<slytherin> I just had this on my mind for some time so I added it before I would forget.
<persia> I'm also fine with either way, so since there's only one of us who has a preference, let's go with putting things on the agenda first, and the Roadmap afterwards.  I'll just pretend that this is an agenda item for today to save hassle.
<persia> So, Roadmap complete.
<persia> [TOPIC] Kill Sun Java 5 in jaunty
<MootBot> New Topic:  Kill Sun Java 5 in jaunty
<persia> slytherin, Go
<slytherin> As of now, I have found only few packages with hard reverse-build-depends on sun-java5-jdk. So it is easy to kill that package.
<persia> I like the idea.
<persia> Any volunteers to coordinate it?
<slytherin> sun-java5-jre is a bit tricky, as I couldn't find an easy way to find all the hard rdepends on it.
<persia> apt-cache rdepends on available architectures isn't sufficient?
<slytherin> persia: I am ready to co-ordinate it. Since I am keeping an eye on Debian packages moving to openjdk, it will be easy for me.
<Koon> slytherin: by "killing it" you mean removing it ? Or just ensuring nothing hard-depends on it ?
<slytherin> Koon: in the end, removing it.
 * persia would prefer removal, if possible.
<slytherin> persia: I will have to look for rdepends in a jaunty chroot. Anyway, I will find some time to list all such packages over weekend.
<Koon> I think there may still be users running custom software that require a Sun 5 JVM...
<slytherin> Koon: And why do you think Sun 6 JVM will not help them?
<persia> Koon, Stff that wouldn't work with Sun 6, and users that can't use Hardy or Intrepid for a while more?
<Koon> there are some proprietary/closed solutions that just don't let you choose (or are not certified with) JVMs
<Koon> that means those users will also have to install JVM by hand
<slytherin> Koon: in that case user is still free to download 5 from SUn's website.
<Koon> slytherin: ok, just wanted to make sure that we were aware of this side-effect
<persia> Koon, The question is really how to serve the users best.  There's a lot of known bugs in Java 5 that will never be fixed.
<slytherin> +1
<persia> Given that Hardy is LTS, do you think there's a high chance that such users won't be able to migrate to 6 by the next LTS?
<handschuh> thats true for sun java 6, too
<Koon> persia: I can see clearly the advantages of removing it :)
<persia> Koon, You've also clearly stated the advantages of keeping it.  Personally, I'd rather remove it sooner than later in a non-LTS, so in LTS+1 or LTS+2.  Removing it suddenly for LTS+3 or an LTS doesn't give users warning to migrate.
<persia> So if we don't do it now, I think April 2011 is our next window of opportunity.
<Koon> persia: I'd say that should be spec-ed to make sure it gets the proper visibility and approvals
<persia> I'd agree with that.
<Koon> I don't really mind either way -- it's just that there might be others with... partner interests that would.
<persia> slytherin, Would you mind creating a spec for that?  The migration is one thing, but the removal probably needs release notes and stuff.
<persia> slytherin, ?
<Koon> in all cases we should fix the hard depends for the packages in the repository
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 21 Nov 20:00: Tunisian LoCo Team IRC | 25 Nov 16:00: Server Team | 25 Nov 17:00: Kernel Team | 26 Nov 17:00: QA Team | 26 Nov 22:00: Platform Team | 27 Nov 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team
<persia> Koon, With that, I'll say it belongs on the Roadmap, for the work to be done (as we're in consensus on that part).
<Koon> oh yes
<slytherin> persia: sorry, I was discussing something with a team mate.
<slytherin> persia: Is a spec required? or a page like MoveToUniverse is sufficient?
<persia> slytherin, For the migration, I think the wiki is fine.  For the removal, I'm inclined to agree with Koon that it's worth having a spec, and filing a release note.
<slytherin> persia: ok, I will do that.
<persia> slytherin, And put your name as the coordinator on the RoadMap.  As always, doesn't mean you need to do it, just that you need to make sure it gets done (which might mean doing it if you can't excite others).
<persia> OK.  That decided, let's move on.
<persia> [TOPIC] Other business
<MootBot> New Topic:  Other business
<persia> I'll be unable to attend the next two meetings.  Would someone else be willing to volunteer to chair?
 * Koon checks his agenda
<slytherin> I will have been unable to attend meetings lately. So I would not volunteer for this.
<persia> The open slots are 27th November and 4th December
<Koon> persia: I can do it, if slytherin is not 100% sure to be able to join
<slytherin> Koon: great
<persia> Koon, OK.  Although without slytherin or I, might be quick meetings :)
<persia> Anyone else have other business?
<slytherin> nope
<Koon> .
<persia> OK.  Anything else to #ubuntu-java then.
<persia> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 08:40.
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-11-21
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Tunisian LoCo Team IRC Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 25 Nov 16:00: Server Team | 25 Nov 17:00: Kernel Team | 26 Nov 17:00: QA Team | 26 Nov 22:00: Platform Team | 27 Nov 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team
<nizarus> the Tunisian LoCo Team meeting will be on #ubuntu-tn
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 25 Nov 16:00: Server Team | 25 Nov 17:00: Kernel Team | 26 Nov 17:00: QA Team | 26 Nov 22:00: Platform Team | 27 Nov 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 27 Nov 13:00: Desktop Team
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-11-16
<^wanhuubb-it> is this a channel for job-employment?
<^wanhuubb-it> *ubuntu-related jobs?
<^wanhuubb-it> help
<elky> no. it's more like a board room.
<^wanhuubb-it> where meet ubuntu employers? help
<joaopinto> ^wanhuubb-it, the support channel is #ubuntu
<^wanhuubb-it> ok
<joaopinto> this channel is for meetings in general
<yamokidzu-it> bar tsimpson is a bully
<yamokidzu-it> he ban without reason
<yamokidzu-it> help
<Amaranth> !appeals | yamokidzu-it
<ubottu> yamokidzu-it: If you disagree with a decision by an operator, please first pay #ubuntu-ops a visit. If you are still unhappy, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcTeam/AppealProcess for the steps you should take. If you feel the need to discuss the channel rules, please contact the ops on IRC or via the email address on the aforementioned page.
<lamont> join #ubuntu-uds-riogrand
<lamont> must learn type.
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-11-17
<pitti> hello all
<pitti> today, the TB meeting will happen in real life at UDS
<StevenK> Oooh. In which session?
<kees> StevenK: Alamo II
<pitti> we are in room Alamo 2, feel free to tune into #ubuntu-uds-alamo2
<cjwatson> there's a voice channel too - http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-l/alamo2/
<cjwatson> err, that link isn't helpful
<cjwatson> ah yes, icecast.ubuntu.com
<kees> specifically http://icecast.ubuntu.com:8000/alamo2.ogg.m3u
<mhall119|work> what's going on in Alamo II?
<mhall119|work> the schedule has it empty
<Keybuk> mhall119|work: Technical Board meeting
 * bdale is awake, but obviously not at UDS
<czajkowski> mhall119|work: might be an empty slot
<czajkowski> mhall119|work:  not all of them are full
<mhall119|work> thanks
 * mhall119|work is in Alamo1
 * mhall119|work virtually, of course
<bdale> no joy here on the icecast stream, fwiw
<cjwatson> bdale: both variants?
<cjwatson> is it just dead air, or broken in some other way?
<joaopinto> the icecast stream is playing fine for me
<cjwatson> mhall119|work: we scheduled the TB meeting late, so it didn't make it onto the schedule
<mhall119|work> ok
<keffie_jayx> hello
<keffie_jayx> anyone here for a loco-council meeting?
<jeansch> Hello evrybody :)
<jeansch> oops
<jeansch> wrong day :)
<jeansch> hello anyway
<JanC> jeansch: I doubt there will be many meetings this week (it's UDS in Dallas)
<jeansch> JanC, realy ? a membership meeting is planed for tomorow
<JanC> jeansch: well, you can try, depends on how many of the relevant council members are in Dallas
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-11-18
<lifeless> @schedule syd
<lifeless> @schedule
<elky> 8pm
<tsimpson> @now
<ubottu> Current time in Etc/UTC: November 18 2009, 09:05:44
<lifeless> elky: so we're on now? not in 1 hr?
<tsimpson> use @now rather than @schedule to see the time, WebCal (which used to manage the topic) is broken
<lifeless> tsimpson: I know the time.
<lifeless> I don't know the schedule.
<lifeless> but thanks.
<tsimpson> :)
<elky> lifeless, um... are you thinking it's tuesday?
<elky> lifeless: ^ (since i used , not :)
<lifeless> oh man, my time sense is naffed
<lifeless> elky: I was :P
<elky> lifeless, i'm pretty sure this is the off week too.
<elky> anyway, off home, ciao
<lifeless> ciao
<JuanMarquez> luis_lopez, la sala para el membership es cual?
<luis_lopez> JuanMarquez, esta es la sala
<Angel1> Hola de paso pregunto yo tambien, como se hace el apoyo a nuestros muchachos??
<jeansch> JuanMarquez, aquÃ­
<jeansch> pero supongo que se habla inglÃ©s aquÃ­ :)
<JuanMarquez> jeansch, posiblemente
<el_baby> jeansch, sÃ­.
<JuanMarquez> Angel1, con testimonios en el wiki, aca no veo como ya que participan los que estan aplicando
<mhoyos> JuanMarquez, luis_lopez hola muchachos..
<el_baby> hola, marco...
<mhoyos> otro latino por aca.. esperando.. :)
<JuanMarquez> mhoyos, hola como vamos
<mhoyos> hola el_baby gracias x venir..
<mhoyos> :)
<mhoyos> JuanMarquez, esperando.. a ver que sucede..
<JuanMarquez> mhoyos, esta aplicando?
<mhoyos> no comprendo el "aplicando"
<el_baby> mhoyos... si te estÃ¡s presentando (applying for membership en inglÃ©s)
<mhoyos> si..
<luis_lopez> mhoyos, sos de boca o de river? :)
<mhoyos> luis_lopez, no me gusta el futbol..
<mhoyos> prefiero arqueria (tiro con arco).
<luis_lopez> mhoyos, cool
<JuanMarquez> mhoyos,  pero que piensa de maradona? jejejeje
<el_baby> luis_lopez Â¿es determinante en la aprobaciÃ³n si es bostero o gallina? :-P
<h00k> Greetings, greetings.
<mhoyos> JuanMarquez, sin comentario.. nos deja mal visto en el mundo por sus expresiones.
<luis_lopez> el_baby, no... pero ayuda a calmar los nervios
<mhoyos> hi h00k
<JuanMarquez> mhoyos, bueno en lo particular se ve mal pero el solo jejeje, mi esposa dice que es pedante
<mhoyos> opino igual JuanMarquez
<h00k> tonyyarusso: greetings!
<JuanMarquez> mhoyos,  y como anda el movimiento ubuntero por buenos aires?
<tonyyarusso> link to agenda?
<pleia2> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/Americas
<marianom> hola a todos!!!
<mhoyos> hi marianom
<itnet7> hey there
<mhall119|work> hello
<FFEMTcJ> hello
<marianom> Hello everyone (this looks like a handy manny ep) :)
<el_baby> hola marianom
<luis_lopez> hello everyone
<h00k> Hello, hello.
<cyphermox> hi
<zoopster> o/
<pleia2> just gathering up another board member for quorum, we'll start shortly :)
 * starcraftman waves.
<cyphermox> starcraftman, hey :)
 * beuno wavs
<beuno> and waves
<marianom> :)
<popey> o/
<JuanMarquez> idea aproximada de cuando iniciamos?
<pleia2> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 15:07. The chair is pleia2.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<marianom> pleia2 dijo que estÃ¡n esperando un board member mÃ¡s. supongo que cuando llegue, JuanMarquez
<pleia2> Welcome to the Americas Membership Board meeting :)
<pleia2> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/Americas
<jeansch> Thanks
<beuno> ok
<cyphermox> thanks!
<mhall119|work> thank you pleia2
<beuno> lets go
<JuanMarquez> gracias
<h00k> Thank you :)
<pleia2> doesn't look like like Tenach is here
<Technoviking> will will have to stop at in a hour
<beuno> luis_lopez, you up?
<pleia2> luis_lopez: please introduce yourself and give us a link to your wiki :)
<luis_lopez> yep
<luis_lopez> Hi, I'm a Linux user since 1996 I started using RedHat, then Mandriva and finally Ubuntu since 6.06 (Drapper Drake)
<luis_lopez> I'm also one of the initial members of the colombian LoCo team and have spent a lot of time moderating, assisting, teaching others, and writing guides.
<luis_lopez> I usually hang out on #ubuntu-co providing support to new Ubuntu users
<luis_lopez> oh yeah... and I wear my Ubuntu cap in public :P
<luis_lopez> my wiki link -> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/luis_lopez
<luis_lopez> I'm a Canonical ex-employee, working now as independent IT consultant :)
<beuno> luis_lopez, plans for the future?
<beuno> luis_lopez, still there?
<pedro_> luis_lopez, ?
<itnet7> typing? maybe
<luis_lopez> Plans for the future: continue contributing to Ubuntu
<beuno> ok
<beuno> good enough
<beuno> vote?
<luis_lopez> specially around bug triaging, and translations
<pleia2> great work luis_lopez :)
<pleia2> +1
<pedro_> would love to have some help there :-)
<beuno> +1
<popey> +1
<pedro_> +1
<Technoviking> +1
<beuno> luis_lopez, welcome!
<pleia2> luis_lopez: congrats! welcome :)
<pedro_> felicitaciones luis_lopez
<beuno> jeansch, ready?
<luis_lopez> thanks! gracias! merci!
<JuanMarquez> felicidades
<h00k> Congrats, luis_lopez!
<itnet7> good job luis_lopez !!
<cyphermox> congrats!
<luis_lopez> Thanks everyone \o/
<jeansch> beuno,
<jeansch> beuno, yes :)
<h00k> luis_lopez: I like the hat, also.
<jeansch> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JeanSchurger
<pleia2> jeansch: quick introduction?
<hyances> +1
<jeansch> Yes, i'm a sortware developer using ubuntu since the begiging
<jeansch> introcued to the linux world in 1996
<beuno> jeansch, you're contributions mostly seem to have been on packaging
<beuno> is that correct?
<jeansch> beuno, some irc help
<jeansch> mostly on 2007
<jeansch> yes, i do the packages for my own usage, and share it
<beuno> jeansch, it seems like you're a better fit for the MOTU council
<beuno> due to your work mostly being around packaging
<jeansch> i maintain a driver for the gpr400 smartcard reader
<pleia2> I agree, better in MOTU
<popey> I'd like to see some testimonials
 * beuno nudge cyphermox 
<cyphermox> aye!
<beuno> jeansch, it's great work you're doing there with mainting the driver
<beuno> jeansch, we need more people doing the work you do
<beuno> but we approve members based on other-than-technical skills here
<beuno> so i think you should look into the MOTU process
<pleia2> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU
<beuno> jeansch, sound good?
<beuno> cyphermox, ready?
<cyphermox> yup
<beuno> cyphermox, go!
<cyphermox> I'm a sysadmin, been playing (or working) with Linux since I'm about 14-15... :) started with Slackware, and moved on to Ubuntu around the time of 6.06. I contribute a lot to the NetworkManager stuff and other packages, and also try to get more people involved in the Ubuntu Quebec LoCo
<cyphermox> my wiki page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Mtrudel
<cyphermox> I guess it could be argued, as for Jean, that I may be a better fit for the MOTU Council meeting :)
<pleia2> you're good here, lots of strong bug and loco work
<beuno> cyphermox, tell us more about your loco work
<cyphermox> well, I organized the GlobalJam chapter here in Montreal for Ubuntu-QC, with a lot of help from komputes too
<cyphermox> also organized the Karmic release party
<cyphermox> and in the process of preparing a small meetup/installfest in two weeks
<beuno> you have great testimonials
<beuno> cyphermox, so the future is MOTU and continue with LoCo work, etc?
<cyphermox> indeed!
<beuno> I'm ready to vote  :)
<pleia2> me too
<cyphermox> I will be going for -universe-contributor at the next MC meeting :)
<pleia2> great work cyphermox :)
<pleia2> +1
<cyphermox> thanks
<beuno> +1
<Technoviking> +1 good testimonals and great work
<pedro_> +1
<popey> +1
<beuno> cyphermox, welcome!
<itnet7> cyphermox: congratulations!!!!
<cyphermox> thanks! :)
<pleia2> komputes: you're up! :)
<luis_lopez> congratulations cyphermox
<JuanMarquez> felicidades
<h00k> Congrts, cyphermox!
<cyphermox> h00k, thanks :)
<beuno> komputes, you're up
<beuno> otherwise
<beuno> JuanMarquez
<JuanMarquez> hi
<pleia2> JuanMarquez: please introduce yourself
<JuanMarquez> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/juanmarquez
<JuanMarquez> first that everything to pardon my to speak since I do not dominate the English well.
<JuanMarquez> hello I am usuary linux from 1995, use ubuntu from 2004 seemed to me a good idea to approach linux the human beings, and nowadays to shown the fruits.
<JuanMarquez> my present and future with ubuntu are working in support online, and the premises, always helping to the end user and companies, to continue organizing to char them and events, hacklab where it will contribute to my majors knowledge.also construction of Wiki and official documents to the Spanish.
<JuanMarquez> At the moment I am one of the founders of " free software fundation colombia" and member of " council ubuntu colombia" which jeopardizes to me but with the community of Ubuntu.
<JuanMarquez> my present project is the installation of Edubuntu in the schools of my region, either I have some of them or using the system.
<JuanMarquez> organizer of local events promoting the use of the FS and ubuntu
<beuno> JuanMarquez, how long have you been doing work in Ubuntu?
<JuanMarquez> 2006 to ist day
<beuno> (btw, if our decisions seem faster than usual, it's because we're all sitting next to each other, we haven't gotten better at this)
<JuanMarquez> 2004 -2005 only user
<pedro_> JuanMarquez, in which way are you contributing to the Gnome applications ?
<jeansch> beuno, sorry, i have a phone call, i read you, and answer soon
<JuanMarquez> Gnome, no , only support to final user
<jeansch> beuno, ok, then you suggest me to apply to MOTU, right ?
<beuno> ok, I'm ready
<pedro_> JuanMarquez, got it , thanks
<pleia2> very good loco work, JuanMarquez :)
<pleia2> +1
<Technoviking> +1
<beuno> +1 from me, you seem to be incredibly active, especially organizing events
<pedro_> +1
<popey> +1
<pleia2> welcome, JuanMarquez!
<itnet7> good job JuanMarquez !!
<pedro_> bienvenido JuanMarquez
<beuno> unimix, you up?
<h00k> Congrats, JuanMarquez!
<luis_lopez> Felicitaciones JuanMarquez
<JaimeRave> Felicitacion JuanMarquez!!
<JuanMarquez> thank you very much
<unimix> Here I am !!
<JuanMarquez> JaimeRave,  wuaoo
<beuno> unimix, go!
<JuanMarquez> luis_lopez, gracias hermano
<unimix> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/unimix
<beuno> JuanMarquez, felicitaciones  ;)
<JuanMarquez> mil gracias
<cyphermox> congrats JuanMarquez
<greg-g> just a heads up: I'm here :)
<unimix> I've been using Ubuntu since February 2007 (Dapper). I have previous experience with Unix (Xenix and SCO) as system administrator and applications programmer in commercial enterprises. When I discovered Ubuntu, I decided to be an active member of Ubuntu community because of the amazing people you can find there and its great philosophy. In May 2007 I've signed the Ubuntu CoC to be completely commited with this community. I think
<unimix>  technology without people has no entity, has no sense.
<marianom> Hi. I'm Mariano: local team contact for Argentina. I'm here to give my support for unimix.  His wisdom, patience and general attitude towards the community have been a huge benefit for Argentina LoCo in the past two years. He has been a very active member since day one.
<pleia2> thanks marianom :)
<sajnox> Hi, mi name is Miguel Sajnovsky and i'm ubunu member since november 08. I'd like to support Guillermo for Ubuntu memeber. He's the soul and the engine of our LoCo team, always willing to run events, to participate, to get involved. He really live his life as member of the ubuntu community.
<sajnox> and on top of all he's an excellent moderator in the forums
<unimix> My aim is to train people to develop themselves in working and using Ubuntu and become Ubuntu members
<greg-g> amazing testimonials
<GLB> hi i from argentina loco team y i want to suport  unimix also
<itnet7> very nice contributions unimix
<unimix> thanks
<unimix> it is worth it
<Technoviking> GLB: thanks
<unimix> for Ubuntu Community
<beuno> ok
<beuno> I'm an enourmous +1 here
<beuno> his application os long overdue
<pleia2> +1
<pedro_> +1 from here as well, keep up the good work
<beuno> and I've lost track of all the great things he does
<Technoviking> +1
<greg-g> yeah, this is a great application, unimix, I'm happy to give a +1
<unimix> thank you very much !
<pleia2> congrats, welcome unimix!
<itnet7> Congratulations unimix !!
<sajnox> congrats Guillermo!!!
<beuno> unimix, bienvenido!  :)
<JuanMarquez> felicidades unimix
<luis_lopez> unimix, felicidades che!
<pedro_> Bienvenido unimix!
<GLB> felcitaciones guillerml
<marianom> felicitaciones unimix. te lo mereces
<juanman> felicitaciones unimix!
<GLB> guillermo
<mhoyos> felicitaciones guillermo !!!
<greg-g> wow, awesome!
<unimix> It's a pleasure to be part of this great community
<unimix> thanks a lot everybody !
<pleia2> micahg1: you around?
<h00k> congrats, unimix!
<micahg> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/micahg
<micahg> Hi, I'm a programmer in Chicago, IL that has been using Ubuntu for about 2 years now.  I've been using Linux for almost 10 years.
<greg-g> hiya, micahg
<micahg> hi greg-g
<greg-g> I would just like to say publicly that I really appreciate all of the work you do with QA, I can see how hard you work on it.
<micahg> thanks greg-g
<beuno> micahg, how long have you been controbuting to Ubuntu?
<Technoviking> micahg: plans for Karmic cycle?
<Technoviking> micahg: plans for Lucid cycle? (doh)
<micahg> beuno: about a year now, I started last winter in the Asnwer tracker
<micahg> Technoviking: packaging for Mozilla products, get the number of open Firefox bugs down
<micahg> perhaps a daily firefox extension repo
<itnet7> Nice testimonials micahg !
<Technoviking> micahg: nice, like daily repos
<beuno> micahg, so I see MOTU in your near future
<beuno> but, you've done massive amounts of work
<Technoviking> +1 from me, great body of work
 * micahg hopes so, but was waiting to gain more experience
<pleia2> +1
<beuno> so, I'm a big +1
<pedro_> +1 , great QA work!
<beuno> greg-g?
<greg-g> great work micahg, +1 from me.
<greg-g> (sorry)
<beuno> micahg, welcome!
<micahg> thank you all :)
<beuno> we need more bug triagers
<itnet7> congratulations micahg !!!
<cyphermox> micahg: congratulations! :)
<beuno> as many as we can get
<pedro_> congrats micahg!
<pleia2> welcome micahg :)
<h00k> Congrats, micahg!
<beuno> micahg, if we get a cloning machine, I will ping you
<pleia2> mhall119|work: you're up! :)
<mhall119|work> yay!
<komputes> cyphermox: heya, sorry im late
<mhall119|work> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/mhall119
<komputes> cyphermox: I'll just blame it on the incompetence of others
<itnet7> I just wanted to share again that due to all of mhall's great work I highly recommend mhall119 as an Ubuntu Member.
<mhall119|work> I'm a web application developer, been using Ubuntu since 2006, Linux since about 2000
<mhall119|work> thanks itnet7
<mhall119|work> I've been really active with the Florida loco in the past year, helping organize, run and sometimes host events
<mhall119|work> we had a Karmic release party at my house with 56 people there
<greg-g> lots of good testimonials on your wiki, mhall119
<mhall119|work> I run a charity that gives Linux powered computers to underprivileged kids
<mhall119|work> and I made an Ubuntu derivative to support that
<beuno> mhall119|work, I'm impressed, you've done tons of work
<mhall119|work> I've also attended and presented in some way at 5 linux shows this year
<mhall119|work> beuno: it doesn't feel like it, my LoCo is awesome
<pleia2> and I missed meeting you at self!
<mhall119|work> I know!
<beuno> mhall119|work, with no doubt, +1 from me
<pleia2> awesome work mhall119|work :)
<pleia2> +1
<komputes> beuno: pleia2: sorry I was on the phone for the last 30 minutes fixing something a karmic upgrade broke... please let me know if i have another chance to go up.
<mhall119|work> thank you
<pedro_> great work mhall119|work , +1 from here
<Technoviking> +1 from m, fantastic work
<mhall119|work> thanks
<beuno> komputes, you're up then (after greg-g votes)
<itnet7> congratulations mhall119|work !!!!
<JuanMarquez> felicidades mhall119|work
<mhall119|work> :)
<itnet7> oops
<greg-g> +1 to mhall119|work , welcome!
<itnet7> whew!!
<pedro_> congrats mhall119|work, welcome!
<pleia2> congrats, welcome mhall119|work :)
<cyphermox> congrats!
<mhall119|work> thanks everyone
<pleia2> komputes: you're up, please introduce yourself :)
 * itnet7 could barely contain his excitement
<beuno> mhall119|work, thanks for all the hard work
<pleia2> hehe
<komputes> Hi I'm komputes, I'm known for user support, linux audio subject matter and a lot of community work
<mhall119|work> beuno: it's only the start
<pleia2> we're wrapping up after this one
<beuno> mhall119|work, that's the right answer  ;)
<luis_lopez> mhall119|work, congrats!
<komputes> Linux user since 2004 (Linux User #458827, Ubuntu User #19076). I'm interested in computer history, user support and audio/video production. Very technical but not a programmer (yet). Took a few introductory lessons in Debian packaging.
<pleia2> but we'll be having another meeting soon :)
<komputes> I try to make myself available to help anyone who is having issues or requires help.
<komputes> This allows me to get complete perspective of how the distro is used by different people, and collect opinions on specific projects.
<komputes> My LoCo is Ubuntu-QC
<komputes> I have organized the GlobalJam with cyphermox  as well as release parties
<komputes> We are working on having a weekly Ubuntu Hour
<pleia2> komputes: Ubuntu Hour?
<komputes> I post on the forums, write solutions and am working on a ubuntu-centric blog
<komputes> pleia2: an hour every week where people meet and talk ubuntu (LoCo)
<komputes> Over 400 ubuntuforums.org posts
<pedro_> komputes, just wondering... why you didn't put your real name on the wiki/lp  ?
<greg-g> cool idea
<tonyyarusso> pleia2: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Hour
<komputes> pedro_: community
<komputes> i keep them seperate, as I do not want differential treatment
<komputes> I am a Member of the Unanswered Posts Team, Beginners Team, LP Beta, Bug Squad, ISO testing, Cana da and Quebec Teams
<pleia2> tonyyarusso: thanks :)
<beuno> komputes, you've got good people backing you up, and you seem to do work in a lot of places
<beuno> I'm ready
<pleia2> me too
<komputes> I will have my LPI 1 and UCP complete by the end of the year
<greg-g> me too
<beuno> +1 for komputes
<pleia2> +1
<greg-g> +1
<Technoviking> +1
<pedro_> +1
<beuno> komputes, welcome
<cyphermox> wow, congrats komputes! \o/
<komputes> for more, please take a look at my wiki page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/komputes
<beuno> h00k, you're up!
<h00k> Congrats, komputes!
<JuanMarquez> felicidades Koltor
<komputes> thank you guys
<pedro_> congrats komputes!
<pleia2> congrats, welcome komputes!
<JuanMarquez> felicidades komputes
<h00k> Greetings, greetings.
<forestpiskie> congrats komputes
<stlsaint> pleia2: hola what i miss?
<h00k> I'm a Senior Computer Science major at the University of Wisconsin - Superior.  I first was introduced to Breezy Badger and have a nasty habit of upgrading before its relatively stable.  I've recently become the Team Leader for the Wisconsin LoCo and planned & hosted a Karmic Release Party (Pictures: http://bit.ly/4wofdk, Blog: http://bit.ly/3EVQCg).  I plan on getting Wisconsin's 87 members more active, and assisting tonyyarusso in the Ojibwe tr
<h00k> My wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AnthonyHook
<tonyyarusso> h00k: cut off at "tr"
<h00k> ach.
<h00k> Ojibwe translation.
<h00k> It finished on my side :( Sorry about that!
<greg-g> nice photo of you and the ubuntu cake :)
<h00k> So much for having it all ready...
<h00k> greg-g: thanks, it was an excellent Birthday!
<exigraff> speaking on behalf of h00k, from what I've seen working with him over the last five years, he more or less embodies the philosophy of Ubuntu. he's worked hard to further the open-source, open-community mindset in every environment he's been in, and regularly "converts" people to the foss platform without having any conscious intent to do so. :)
<tonyyarusso> as the team contact for a neighboring LoCo (-us-mn), I've had the chance to work with h00k quite a bit lately on loco issues, and saw him organize a Karmic Release Party that was rather awesome.
<exigraff> looking forward to seeing his work as leader of the US-Wisconsin LoCo.
<beuno> h00k, how long have you been working on Ubuntu?
<tonyyarusso> As it took place in Superior, which is a border city with Minnesota, is was a sort of joint event attended by people from both of our LoCos.
<h00k> beuno: I've been working with it for 5 years
<beuno> h00k, and on it?  :)
<tonyyarusso> I haven't had a chance to use it yet, but his Google Voice / libnotify app looks pretty cool, and I'm hoping we can work together to get that packaged for Karmic (I don't know if his wiki mentions it - he expressed an interest in packaging as a future plan)
<h00k> beuno: and on it for approximately 5 years
<pedro_> h00k, for how long have you been working on Ojibwe?
<h00k> I would like to see it in a package, yeah, exigraff and myself have been working on that.
<tonyyarusso> As far as translation goes, Ojibwe is the fourth most common indiginous language in N. America, and we plan to start working with local bands to introduce Ubuntu to them and start translation work.
<tonyyarusso> That project is in its infancy, with a hope to launch a formal announcement/call for volunteers by Christmas.
<h00k> pedro_: not very long, it's something tonyyarusso has recently started and I have some contacts as I work on a Native American Reservation and I believe it will be a good thing to present to their community.
<greg-g> I'm excited to see the work on the ojibwe translations
<tonyyarusso> (Neither of us are actually fluent speakers, so it will be largely a role of coordination, explanation, and communication)
<greg-g> tonyyarusso: awesome
<pleia2> h00k: I'd like to see some testimonials from folks you work with, and some more progress with the WI loco team
<beuno> yeah, I agree
<h00k> pleia2: alright.  The WI LoCo team has been pretty fledgling for a while, I'm planning to get the ball rolling a bit more with it.
<beuno> h00k, getting the team active again will make you fly right through here
<pleia2> h00k: I saw your post to the loco teams list this morning, congrats on taking over there :)
<beuno> so be sure to come back   :)
<beuno> mhoyos, you ready?
<greg-g> h00k: locos are hard things to get started and sustained, take my word for it :) But, they are also dang fun.
<mhoyos> yes..
<h00k> Which is why I recently asked our previous team leader if it would be something more that I coud do.
<mhall119|work> pleia2: are you guys going through the whole list?
<pleia2> mhall119|work: no, just one more (for real this time)
<mhall119|work> lol
<beuno> h00k, so I expect so see your name back up soon!
<beuno> s/so/to
<h00k> beuno: thanks
<mhoyos> i am ready
<beuno> mhoyos, go
<mhoyos> thank.. hi for all
<mhoyos> my wiki : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/mhoyos
<mhoyos> I started using Linux since 2000, when the distributions were sold on magazines. My first knowledge of GNU/Linux was self-taught and in the year 2003 I did my first GNU/Linux training course.
<mhoyos> I was a founder member of the proyect UTUTO since 2004 and had participate in SOLAR, free software argentina.
<mhoyos> During the last years I have been participating in diferent events of Software Libre Argentina, and I also have given Technical and philosofic talks in several Argentinian provinces.
<mhoyos> By the end of 2007 I started participaiting more intensively in Ubuntu argentinian comunnity, and today I am one of the moderators of the list and an active participant of the Argentinian Ubuntu Community.
<mhoyos> I created a distribution based on Ubuntu, for cybercafes. ciberlinux called.
<mhoyos> and admin for site tecnicos linux : http://tecnicoslinux.com.ar
<mhoyos> for the future, my intention is to continue collaborating with the Ubuntu community and promote free software
<mhoyos> I do not speak much English, but I will do my best.
<marianom> mhoyos is working really hard in the Argentina community: he got a lot of respect in our mailing list where he is the driven force. It's a list with high traffic and he has been working really hard since the day he took responsibilities in it.
<sajnox> Hi, I'm Miguel Sajnovsky and I'm Ubuntu member since november 08. I want to support mhoyos for Ubuntu member. He has been doing an excellent job as a moderator in the mailing list for the last year. His work is really impressive, he is *always* there, not just giving solutions to people but also educating, he is one that people who really know about computer and love to share his knowledge with the community . His commitment to the
<sajnox>  ubuntu community and the CoC is impressive.
<unimix> I totally support Marco for the great job he has been doing as mod for the support list
<unimix> and his great commitement with the Ubuntu community, especially our Argentina LoCo team
<beuno> I'm incredibly happy mhoyos finally decided to apply, he's one of the things keeping our LoCo alive
<mhoyos> thanks mac_v sajnox unimix
<beuno> I can't scale fonts, bug imagine a +1 100 times bigger  :)
<beuno> s/bug/but
<pleia2> great work!
<mhoyos> thanks beuno
<pleia2> +1
<pedro_> +1 from me too, keep up the good work mhoyos
<Technoviking> +1 good work
<greg-g> +1
<beuno> mhoyos, bienvenido  :)
<h00k> Congrats, mhoyos
<pedro_> Felicitaciones mhoyos!
<marianom> congrats mhoyos!!! you deserve it!!!
<unimix> congratulations mhoyos !! Well done !! You deserve it !!
<mhoyos> thanks for all / gracias a tod@s
<JuanMarquez> CHE felicidades mhoyos
<GLB_> felicitaciones mhoyos
 * sajnox is extremely happy with two new ubuntu members in our Loco Team
<pleia2> congrats and welcome mhoyos! :)
<Technoviking> Sorry folks that is all for today
<marianom> our team is great :)
<mhoyos> new two members from argentina..
<pleia2> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 16:11.
<mhall119|work> thanks again everybody
<pleia2> thanks everyone :) congrats to the new members!
<pedro_> thanks everybody!
<Michelle_Qimo> :D
<Technoviking> We will schedule a another meeting RSN
<micahg> thanks pleia2, beuno and everyone else
<h00k> Congrats to all the new members
<JuanMarquez> donde se puede conseguir el log de esta sesion?
<HedgeMage> JuanMarquez:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs
<JuanMarquez> HedgeMage, ya mire pero no la veo, sabra cual es entre tanto link?
<HedgeMage> JuanMarquez: Sorry, I don't understand that much Spanish :/
<JuanMarquez> ok
 * HedgeMage has only been learning for a couple of weeks
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-11-19
<zumbi> hi
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-11-20
<switchgirl> lol at a lj post "yestoday i walked past a hospital the patients where shouting 14 14 14.." "i couldnt see what was happening and couldnt see over the fence but peered through a crack in the fence  they poked me in the eye with a stick and shouted "15 15 15...""
<switchgirl> wrong box sorry
 * Lns peeks his head in the conference room
<czajkowski> aloha
<Lns> hi czajkowski
<Lns> i'm just here to steal the coffee
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-11-21
<IngForigua> good evening
<IngForigua> What is the meeting for membership
<padhu> Hi freiends
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-11-22
<bittin> will the gaming team meeting be 20:00 swedish time?
<tsimpson> bittin: sweden is UTC+1 right? so it'll be at 21:00
<Coringao> Hello, could you help me with the games Portal Ubuntu Games?
<Coringao> I am wanting to put them in the Launchpad PPA
<popey> Coringao: this probably isnt the channel you want
<Coringao> ok
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-11-22
<bdrung> persia: dmb meeting?
<cjwatson> is it now or in 50 minutes?  my calendar is confusing
<BlackZ> cjwatson: I'd say now
<bdrung> cjohnston: it should be now
<bdrung> cjohnston: or to be more precise: 13 minutes ago
<czajkowski> any chance the fridge could just get DST right
<soren> I somehow suspect the fridge isn't the problem.
 * cjwatson is cjwatson not cjohnston
<czajkowski> soren: it bit the LC already this month
<soren> czajkowski: LC?
<bdrung> sorry cjwatson - i should type more characters before using tab-completion
<soren> bdurng: Or not use tab-completion at all. It works great!
<soren> Oh, wait.
<bdrung> soren: no, it doesn't :P
<czajkowski> soren: Loco council
<quadrispro> hi all
<Kmos> hi
<bilalakhtar> Hi Kmos
<bilalakhtar> good to see you in a DMB meeting, I guess the first time since you sent your mail to devel-permissions?
<Kmos> bilalakhtar: correct. I sent an e-mail explaning why I failed the meetings
<Kmos> I need to run in 45 minutes, just waiting for DMB to start
<BlackZ> hi
<cjwatson> so we have bdrung soren cjwatson.  stgraber sent apologies.  any other DMB members present?
<cjwatson> cody-somerville is probably asleep
 * bilalakhtar forgot bdrung is a DMB member :D
<bdrung> then the question is: where is persia?
<cjwatson> or geser for that matter
<bdrung> oh, yes. i can't count ;)
<soren> I wonder if we should auto-schedule a topic for these meetings a couple of weeks before DST changes in any of the countries in which we have members. Scheduling meetings for people in such a diverse set of timezones will almost always mean it's going to be a stretch for someone.
<soren> ...and when DST kicks in, that might be the... what's the expression? something that tips the scale.
<bdrung> soren: do all dmb members live in a country with DST?
<soren> bdrung: no.
<soren> bdrung: persia doesn't.
<soren> And the US and EU switch at different times.
<bdrung> oh
<soren> So we have ~4 TZ combinations that we need to deal with.
<cjwatson> and some of us use google calendar which is known to suck at timezones.
<soren> cjwatson: I hear that a lot. I'm not sure I agree.
<cjwatson> IME
<soren> Most stories have a (perfectly reasonable) explanation, so it's more of a question of wrong expectations.
<quadrispro> cjohnston, really it is so (although I love all google stuff)
<quadrispro> wop
<quadrispro> cjwatson, above :)
<cjwatson> soren: the fact that it hopelessly confuses people on a frequent basis is suckage, even if there's a reasonable explanation for each individual piece
<bdrung> how can we improve the situation?
<soren> If I schedule a recurring meeting for 8 PM, I've never seen that fail. However, if people in e.g. the US look at the same meeting, it'll move whenever the TZ delta between myself and them changes.
<soren> ...which is surprising, but correct.
<bdrung> can the chair man ping all members an hour before the dmb meeting start and tell them: dmb meeting in one hour?
<soren> The best solution I've seen is to switch to Icelandic time when you schedule meetings. That way, it should stay constant w.r.t. UTC.
<cjwatson> yes, it would help not to be starting the process of rounding people up at start-of-meeting
<cjwatson> although in this case stgraber already sent an e-mail reminder
<bilalakhtar> quadrispro: Nothing is perfect. If something's wrong with the calendar, it should be accepted as a mistake and should be fixed or we, as users should work around it
<bilalakhtar> which is what the DMB is doing
<quadrispro> yep, I see :)
<persia> Sorry: time calculation failure.
<soren> *chuckle*
<bdrung> why are so many people bad at time calculation? i remember debian-multimedia meeting where too many calculated the wrong time.
<cjwatson> we should start since we now have 4
<cjwatson> wiki says persia is chairing
<persia> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 06:38. The chair is persia.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<persia> [TOPIC] Action Item review
<MootBot> New Topic:  Action Item review
 * persia failed to contact the CC
<persia> cjwatson to add haildb to mtaylor's PPU list
<cjwatson> added (about five seconds ago in a panic)
<persia> [TOPIC] Review Marco Rodrigues participation in Ubuntu Development
<MootBot> New Topic:  Review Marco Rodrigues participation in Ubuntu Development
<persia> Kmos, This was stalled, looking for CC input.  Since you're here today, did you have anything you wanted to add, specifically?
<Kmos> persia: I don't think so, just I to appologize for no been around latest DMB meetings.
<persia> No worries.  We've been indecisive.
<Kmos> ok
<bdrung> Kmos: may i ask how old are you?
<Kmos> bdrung: 26 years old
<persia> [TOPIC] Martin Pool's Developer Application
<MootBot> New Topic:  Martin Pool's Developer Application
<persia> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MartinPool/DeveloperApplication
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MartinPool/DeveloperApplication
<bilalakhtar> is mbp here?
<persia> Hrm, seems poolie is not on freenode :(
<soren> 08:15 < poolie> night all
<soren> From #bzr.
<soren> That's 4Â½ hours ago.
<persia> BlackZ, Are you here yet?  You said you might be late.
<BlackZ> persia: I'm here
<persia> [TOPIC] Lorenzo De Liso's application for core-dev
<MootBot> New Topic:  Lorenzo De Liso's application for core-dev
<persia> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LorenzoDeLiso/CoreDeveloperApplication
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LorenzoDeLiso/CoreDeveloperApplication
<cjwatson> poolie isn't around on internal IRC either
<cjwatson> he's in .au and it's possible neither of our usual times is terribly congenial
<soren> Do we need him here?
<persia> I think it's something like 2am for poolie: he'll probably be happier with the other meeting time,.
<soren> I, for one, don't feel I need to ask him anything.
<cjwatson> I'd be happy to handle poolie's app in absentia personally
<persia> I think everyone should be asked questions.
<cjwatson> you're the chair :)
<bdrung> i want to ask him questions
<persia> BlackZ, Beyond helping others become developers, what work do you expect to do in the core packageset?
<cjwatson> mixed feedback from BlackZ's comments
<cjwatson> (on the wiki)
<BlackZ> persia: well, I don't have a specific package set where I want to work on, as I said on my application, I work on some Ubuntu server related packages
<BlackZ> cjwatson: please let me comment Artur Rona's comment :)
<cjwatson> BlackZ: of course everyone makes mistakes and I don't think it's necessary for people to be grilled about every single one - but how do you feel you might have avoided the rsyslog breakage from end of last week?
<cjwatson> BlackZ: I was more looking at the several ones from core-devs who said "hm, not bad, would like a bit more experience though"
<persia> BlackZ, Well, you're applying for upload permission to the "core" package set (and coincidentally, all the others).  I'd hope you had specific work you had been doing or planned to do there for which you would need such permission.  If you're mostly interested in server stuff, there is the server packageset.
<BlackZ> cjwatson: well, I learned from my own mistakes :) as I said you, I did that accidentally and this happens very rarely; most sponsors want me to work on other tasks other than "just" merges, but I work closely with Debian
<BlackZ> persia: yes but I'm interested in mostly of the packages in the main component, too
<soren> BlackZ: The server packageset contains stuff in main, too.
<persia> As do a number of packagesets (most of them, really)
<BlackZ> soren: yeah but I'm talking generally :)
<cjwatson> how is the grub merge going, anyway? ;-)
<BlackZ> cjwatson: I'd say 66 % :)
<BlackZ> cjwatson: I didn't have a lot of time in the last week to look at it, but it's in progress
<cjwatson> ok
<bdrung> how can i check which package is in the server package set? i sponsored a bunch of merges which are probably not in this set.
<cjwatson> edit_acl.py -P server -S natty query
<cjwatson> hm, or not
<soren> It's ubuntu-server, isn't it?
<cjwatson> edit_acl.py -P ubuntu-server -S natty query
<soren> http://people.canonical.com/~cjwatson/packagesets
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~cjwatson/packagesets
<cjwatson> no
<BlackZ> for example, irssi, and most of the packages which I take care aren't in the server package set
<cjwatson> please don't point people at that
<soren> cjwatson: Apologies.
<BlackZ> s/which I take care/which I take care of
<persia> cjwatson, Is it no longer accurate?
<cjwatson> the list that's actually in Launchpad is always better
<soren> Less accessible, though.
<cjwatson> ~cjwatson/packagesets may contain things that haven't been applied yet
<cjwatson> it's really just a convenience staging URL
<cjwatson> I'll see if I can provide something accessible and generated from Launchpad at some point
<cjwatson> (it's painful because LP doesn't seem to let me query package sets while logged in anonymously)
<bilalakhtar> BlackZ: as for main packages, many packages are handled by delegated development teams. Many are part of the core as well. I saw you around the time you became contrib-dev and when you became MOTU. What made you feel that you have enough experience to be a core-dev?
<BlackZ> bilalakhtar: well, I touch many core packages and some people advised me to do that (for this reason, too) :)
<BlackZ> obviously I will not work on "just" merges but on other tasks too; however as I said, I'm working closely with Debian (for example to fix bugs to the packages there and get our fixes there to minimalize our delta)
<bdrung> i checked the sponsored packages. most of them are in the core package set
<Kmos> need to go, bbl
<persia> BlackZ, When working on packages that affect multiple flavours, what are some of the important concerns?
 * cjwatson looks at http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=602406 - shouldn't that have been multiple bugs?
<bilalakhtar> BlackZ: as for the bug which cjwatson pointed out, patch debian/patches/notification-append seems ubuntu-specific
<bilalakhtar> it shouldn't have been forwarded to debian
<BlackZ> persia: well, when touching *any* package (that affects multiple flavours or not) I try firstly to get in touch with the last person who touched it and I look for any single change; also, I test the package first to upload it
<BlackZ> cjwatson: right but usually I forward them with one patch that contains all changes
<cjwatson> but you shouldn't :)
<cjwatson> just as Ubuntu bugs should be one bug per logical issue, so should Debian bugs
<persia> patches.ubuntu.com does that for us.  Lots of folk find it hard or unpleasant to read.
<BlackZ> cjwatson: ok, then I will do like you said in the future
<cjwatson> I know submittodebian sort of fails to discourage that, but you are meant to edit the patch
<cjwatson> thanks - it'll be easier to get Debian maintainers to look at patches this way
<BlackZ> cjwatson: yes but I forward them manually :P
<bdrung> BlackZ: splitting the ubuntu changes is important. then the debian maintainer can decide what to pick and what to reject
<BlackZ> bdrung: agreed; that's why in the future I will do that
<cjwatson> more importantly, can make those decisions at different times and keep track
<BlackZ> cjwatson: thank you for pointing that out
<persia> Any outstanding questions?
<cjwatson> bdrung: you mentioned that you encouraged BlackZ to apply for core-dev; what made you feel differently from the other folks on his wiki page?
<bdrung> cjwatson: i sponsored more than the others.
<bdrung> cjwatson: a big bunch of sponsor requests came from BlackZ.
<cjwatson> not an unreasonable point
<bdrung> his requests were all fine, he forwarded the ubuntu changes, the sync requests were all ok
<soren> I think I would classify that as a required condition for core-devs, by no means a sufficient one.
<persia> OK.  Moving to voting:
<persia> [VOTE] Lorenzo De Liso to become core-dev
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Lorenzo De Liso to become core-dev.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<bdrung> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from bdrung. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<persia> -1 : I'd like to see a clearer plan and stronger support in endorsements.
<MootBot> -1 received from persia. 1 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 0
<soren> -1 at this point, sorry.
<MootBot> -1 received from soren. 1 for, 2 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -1
<cjwatson> +0 - acknowledged bdrung's point but I really have a hard time saying yes with most of the endorsements being kind of lukewarm.  I think if you're ready for core-dev you should be able to persuade people to be actively enthusiastic about you. :-)  It looks as though you're going in the right direction though ...
<MootBot> Abstention received from cjwatson. 1 for, 2 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now -1
<persia> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 1 for, 2 against. 1 abstained. Total: -1
<persia> That's below threshold, even if everyone else votes in favour.
<persia> [TOPIC] Ken VanDine's application for core-dev
<MootBot> New Topic:  Ken VanDine's application for core-dev
<persia> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KenVanDine/DeveloperApplication
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KenVanDine/DeveloperApplication
<persia> kenvandine, Hey.  So, what work have you been doing that requires core-dev?
<bdrung> kenvandine: can you give some examples of your work outside of ubuntu-desktop?
<persia> kenvandine, Are you here?
<persia> Perhaps a bit early there yet.  Moving to the next applicant.
<persia> [TOPIC] AlessioTreglia's application for core-dev
<MootBot> New Topic:  AlessioTreglia's application for core-dev
<persia> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlessioTreglia/CoreDeveloperApplication
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlessioTreglia/CoreDeveloperApplication
<quadrispro> Hi all! here I am
 * ari-tczew is saying all the best for quadrispro
<persia> quadrispro, You mention that we don't collaborate enough with Debian: what steps do you think we should take to increase that?  I know you tend to do most of your work in Debian directly: do you think this model makes sense more widely?  Why or why not?
<quadrispro> persia, thanks for the question
<quadrispro> we should encourage our contributors to work on the both side
<quadrispro> because
<quadrispro> ok, some minutes to elaborate..
<quadrispro> I don't know if my approach is the right one, asfaik I take care of quality on both D&U, and yes, it's difficult and it means more work
<kenvandine> sorry
 * kenvandine waves
<cjwatson> depending on how you look at it - making changes as far upstream as possible is often less work in the long run
<persia> kenvandine, We'll get back to you in a bit, if we can.
<bdrung> quadrispro: do you have plans for main packages where collaboration fails?
<kenvandine> thx
<quadrispro> yes, for instance: simple-scan
<kenvandine> sorry i was late, didn't put this on my calendar...
<quadrispro> I admire robert's work, but he doesn't answer my question, he ignores the work on the Debian side
<quadrispro> and with my next uploads I'll adopt some changes for the patch system
<quadrispro> i.e. divering quilt series file, in order to apply ubuntu-specific patches just from my side
<quadrispro> persia, we should encourage contributors to: 1) know better how debian works: it's not enough to know that it's different, they should know *where* and *how* is different
<quadrispro> (and sorry for my bad english...)
<bdrung> quadrispro: did you talked with robert about simple-scan?
<quadrispro> bdrung, yes, I tried, not everyday
<quadrispro> I've sent a mail to u-devel-discuss some time ago: got no replies
<bdrung> quadrispro: and direct e-mailing him?
<quadrispro> yes, done too
<quadrispro> :)
<quadrispro> I've asked him if he would like to help me maintaining the package on Debian too, I told him: "please, merge rather than upload new -0ubuntuX revisions"
<quadrispro> "i'm open to suggestions, criticism, whatever you want: please let me know"
<quadrispro> no replies
<quadrispro> BTW, I'm forwarding bugs,patches for simple-scan
<soren> I don't see a problem in having packages flow the other way, really.
<cjwatson> quadrispro at least deserves a response though
<soren> If upstreams only have time to really focus on one distro and they choose that one distro to be Ubuntu, that's ok.
<persia> I think cooperation is more important than direction, although I think most of us tend to push to Debian when the same source works for both.
<soren> Certainly.
<quadrispro> persia, you got the point
<soren> persia: Certainly. Me too, for upstream stuff I package. For stuff for which I'm upstream... Not so much.
<soren> ...but that's not really the topic of discussion here anyway.
<bdrung> the question is: how to resolve such cases (main packages are more affected by a lack of collaboration)
<quadrispro> soren, but if the package works fine for Debian and Ubuntu and the delta is not so intrusive, why should we diverge? BTW, I agree, this is not the point
<persia> OK.  New question: when working on packages that affect multiple flavours, what are some of the concerns?
<soren> quadrispro: Responded in #ubuntu-motu. We can pick up the discussion there once we're over here.
<quadrispro> well, they should work at all, and much of testing is needed
<quadrispro> soren, thank you, I will :)
<quadrispro> they *do* work
<quadrispro> core packageset contains essential items that need paying particular care, a small mistake might mean large breakage
<ari-tczew> sorry for offtopic, just semi-related to this discussion: from my point packages should be clean merged till FeatureFreeze, as Debian-based system.
<persia> Anyone else have questions?
<cjwatson> not I
<persia> [VOTE] Alessio Treglia to become core-dev
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Alessio Treglia to become core-dev.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<cjwatson> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from cjwatson. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<bdrung> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from bdrung. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<persia> +1 : good history, strong endorsements, lovely work
<MootBot> +1 received from persia. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<soren> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from soren. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<persia> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 4 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 4
<persia> Congratulations quadrispro
<bdrung> congrats quadrispro
<quadrispro> thank you persia, thanks all
<persia> [TOPIC] Ken VanDine's core-dev application
<MootBot> New Topic:  Ken VanDine's core-dev application
<kenvandine> :)
<persia> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KenVanDine/DeveloperApplication
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KenVanDine/DeveloperApplication
<kenvandine> i apologize for being late
<persia> kenvandine, The questions asked before were mostly for examples or work outside the desktop set.  Could you share some?
<bdrung> kenvandine: no problem, we had enough in the pipe
<kenvandine> sure
<kenvandine> they are of course things that are used by desktop components
<kenvandine> most recent examples come to mind are x264 and ubuntu-geoip
<kenvandine> x264 bug fix which was breaking video calls in empathy
<kenvandine> and ubuntu-geoip is a new package
<bdrung> kenvandine: why did you use the "2:0.98.1653+git88b90d9-3ubuntu1" version for the SRU?
<kenvandine> i end up fixing the bugs and doing or reviewing the packaging then i need to steal some valuable time from someone to sponsor
<kenvandine> was that for x264?
<bdrung> yes, x264
<kenvandine> that was what dch gave me... to be honest :)
<kenvandine> it was our first change on top of the latest debian one we had
<cjwatson> it seems fine to me to use that version, since natty already has something latere
<kenvandine> but i suspect that should have been 0ubuntu1
<cjwatson> *later
<kenvandine> yeah
<bdrung> kenvandine: did you check that this version doesn't exits in natty?
<kenvandine> yes
<kenvandine> natty was already later
<kenvandine> 0.106 something
<kenvandine> i think
<kenvandine> which already had the fix from upstream
<kenvandine> so i didn't need to touch that
<bdrung> kenvandine: but there could be a 2:0.98.1653+git88b90d9-3ubuntu1 in between.
<kenvandine> i doubt i checked all the versions in between
<kenvandine> just the latest
<cjwatson> the upload would just have been rejected in that case, and no harm done
<kenvandine> true
<bdrung> ok
<kenvandine> also
<kenvandine> it would be very useful if i could assist other team members with the sponsor queue
<persia> kenvandine, When working on a package used by multiple flavours, what are some of the most important concerns?
<kenvandine> seb128 for example has plenty to do...
<bdrung> ubuntu-geoip is in universe
<kenvandine> it needs to go to main
<persia> kenvandine, Why?
<kenvandine> new dep for indicator-datetime
<persia> That would put it in the desktop set then, no?
<kenvandine> ultimately, yes
<kenvandine> but getting it to that point meant using seb128's time to get it uploaded, etc
<kenvandine> so a motu could do it...
<persia> Sure.
<bdrung> kenvandine: have you more examples?
<kenvandine> not specifically off hand... last cycle was much worse when the desktop set didn't have everything it should
<kenvandine> cjwatson probably remembers that well :)
<kenvandine> also the patch pilot program
<bdrung> then it's an issue with the set
<kenvandine> i am on that rotation, so would be useful if i could sponsor what i review
<persia> kenvandine, How often do you find that you end up needing to work on something before it can be included in the packageset?
<kenvandine> instead of just shoving that off on others
<kenvandine> persia, every cycle...
<cjwatson> it's happened maybe a half-dozen times
<kenvandine> usually at the beginning
<cjwatson> getting less frequent now I think
<cjwatson> it does happen a lot for new packages though
<persia> kenvandine, And similarly, if there was a way to get stuff into the packageset *before* it got added to the image, would that still be as high?
<kenvandine> cjwatson, for the perms it was every week ... i was just having seb128 sponsor
<cjwatson> persia: image, there is; archive, there isn't
<kenvandine> that would help a lot
<kenvandine> persia, but i think i could also be useful helping to reduce the sponsor queue
<persia> cjwatson, Yes, but we don't use that much.
<kenvandine> reviewing patches, etc
<cjwatson> persia: use what?
<persia> cjwatson, Add stuff to packagesets before they are seeded.
<cjwatson> you said "added to the image", that's not quite the same thing. :)
<cjwatson> actually, there's a fairly substantial list of exceptions
<persia> Well, trye, although for the desktop packageset I presume it's fairly close.  Anyway, off-topic (but I'd like to learn more later)
<kenvandine> i probably have a direct need to have someone sponsor something for me at least once a week
<cjwatson> grep '^[^#]' exceptions | wc -l
<cjwatson> 64
<cjwatson> http://paste.ubuntu.com/535206/
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://paste.ubuntu.com/535206/
<kenvandine> like this week, i'll need to get an upload of connman sponsored to go along with indicator-network
<cjwatson> (was discussed at UDS)
<bdrung> kenvandine: what's your relation to debian?
<kenvandine> i would rather help reduce the sponsor queue, instead of making it worse
<cjwatson> personally I'm confident that Ken would make fairly frequent use of these privileges if granted, and that they're proportionate to the work he's doing
<bdrung> conman is in universe
<kenvandine> bdrung, not much i am afraid, i have done some merge requests
<kenvandine> i should do more
<persia> I'd very much like ken to be able to add new packages to the archive, and work on stuff that is about-to-be-in-the-desktop-set.  I'm less convinced for stuff widely outside GNOME Desktopy stuff.
<persia> Do we have any way to do that?
<kenvandine> bdrung, yes, but just an example of something else that is a dep
<soren> persia: Um... "motu"?
<cjwatson> not really.  MOTU allows adding new packages to the archive, but stuff that's about to be in desktop often gets sucked into main earlier for one reason or another.
<soren> I see.
<cjwatson> so I'm sure Ken would use MOTU privileges, but I doubt it would be a complete answer
<kenvandine> and with core-dev i could lighten the load a bit for seb128 and didrocks
<persia> kenvandine, Well, how much of that load lightening is problems with the packageset, and how much is stuff that needs to be core?
<kenvandine> not sure exactly
<ari-tczew> heh... people says "I'll help reduce sponsors queue" but what about if you won't meet election promises? delete upload access?
<kenvandine> but there are plenty of pieces that the desktop depends on that aren't in the desktop packageset
<bdrung> examples?
<persia> Well, X, for one :)
<kenvandine> x264 is one... upower i don't think is in the desktop packageset either
<kenvandine> indeed
<kenvandine> and actually during the mesa fiasco with unity
<kenvandine> at the end of the maverick cycle... the X guys wanted me to sponsor the fix
<bdrung> x264 was one SRU. the package is mainly maintainer by siretart
<kenvandine> because folks had holiday
<kenvandine> bdrung, well that was just a recent example... i don't have every instance memorized :)
<kenvandine> there was a last minute mesa upload that broken unity, during the RC of maverick
<kenvandine> and folks were out on holiday, and with my relation to the DX team everyone was looking to me
<kenvandine> but we had to find a sponsor
<cjwatson> are there further questions here?  people seem to disagree on need, but we seem to be going round in circles at this point
<bdrung> hi geser
<kenvandine> :)
 * geser waves
<bdrung> kenvandine: re merges. do you forward relevant changes to debian?
<kenvandine> i have
<kenvandine> not sure i have been perfect
<kenvandine> and i have helped sync changes for our packages after they made it in debian
<bdrung> kenvandine: do you contact the debian maintainer and offer collaboration? the desktop packages seems to differentiate much.
<kenvandine> for example, when the indicator stack made it in debian they sent back their changes to the packaging and i made sure we merged it
<kenvandine> not usually direct contact
<kenvandine> i haven't really had a need to
<kenvandine> the debian maintainer for the indicator stuff was awesome
<kenvandine> he made the effort to send us the changes
<kenvandine> which wasn't much, but we of course prefer to be as close as possible
<kenvandine> in that case it is kind of weird, we are upstream for the packages but debian is ubuntu's upstream
<bdrung> kenvandine: i saw that the indicator stuff in maintained by the pkg-ayatana group. joining that group could increase collaboration
<kenvandine> sure, i could do that
<kenvandine> would be a good way for me to do more in debian
<bdrung> kenvandine: joining a debian group is the best entrance point
<kenvandine> i'll do that
<bdrung> kenvandine: do you have specific plans for the sponsors-queue?
<kenvandine> nothing specific, i'll be doing the patch pilot reviews once a month
<kenvandine> and where ever i can to help reduce seb's load
<bdrung> kenvandine: i see 12 open bugs for the ubuntu-desktop set.
<kenvandine> that seems low :)
<bdrung> kenvandine: that's more than the requests for universe and multiverse combined
<kenvandine> how do you see bugs on the package set?
<bdrung> kenvandine: http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/sponsoring/ -> origin (and the stats on the bottom)
<cjwatson> kenvandine: that's specifically sponsorship requests, not bugs in general
<kenvandine> oh origin
<bdrung> kenvandine: how much experience do you have with sponsoring work?
<kenvandine> quite a bit, i review all the DX uploads weekly and upload them
<kenvandine> for all the indicator-* packages, tedg does the packaging work in their ppa and he sends them to me for sponsoring
<kenvandine> and they do weekly releases for all their projects that have had changes that week
<bdrung> kenvandine: and sponsor requests from outside the DX team?
<kenvandine> ubuntuone and desktopcouch
<kenvandine> plus
<kenvandine> i did a lot of the paper cuts
<kenvandine> so empathy, rhythmbox, telepathy-*, etc
<kenvandine> icon theme
<kenvandine> a big chunk of the outside patches that came in for the paper cuts project i sponsored
<kenvandine> but that is probably all desktop set stuff
<persia> No reason not to sponsor that :)
<kenvandine> right
<kenvandine> and i have :)
<persia> bdrung, Do you have more questions?
<bdrung> persia: no
<persia> [VOTE] Ken VanDine to become core-dev
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Ken VanDine to become core-dev.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<soren> +1  Lots of excellent work getting done and I'm sure Ken will use his powers for good :)
<MootBot> +1 received from soren. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<kenvandine> :)
<kenvandine> always for good :-D
<cjwatson> +1 - no complaints, good experience
<MootBot> +1 received from cjwatson. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<persia> +0 : I'm really undecided about this, and don't think I can come to a conclusion now.  The work is good, but doesn't match my model of "core-dev" (which may need to change)
<MootBot> Abstention received from persia. 2 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 2
<bdrung> +0 to me it looks more like an issue with the ubuntu-desktop package set. i have the same thought like persia
<MootBot> Abstention received from bdrung. 2 for, 0 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 2
<cjwatson> I entirely disagree that this is a package set issue, FWIW
<persia> I also disagree that it's a packageset issue.
<cjwatson> or if it is, it's not fixable in a reasonable timeframe for Ken
<persia> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 2 for, 0 against. 2 abstained. Total: 2
<persia> I'll put these to the others via email, and may vote later myself.
<persia> [ACTION] persia to get the rest of the votes for kenvandine
<MootBot> ACTION received:  persia to get the rest of the votes for kenvandine
<kenvandine> thx
 * bilalakhtar came late, or else he would have added something for kenvandine 
<persia> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 08:37.
<persia> Thanks all!
<bdrung> persia: chair for next meeting?
<kenvandine> thx!
<kenvandine> i have sponsored quite a bit for bilalakhtar :)
<persia> bdrung, Thanks for volunteering :)
<bilalakhtar> kenvandine was very knowledgable
<bilalakhtar> and he was (indirectly) my mentor
<bdrung> persia: that wasn't an offer. ;) it was just the question why we didn't discuss it.
<bilalakhtar> Though he had been in ~ubuntu-desktop for quite some time, he was careful about every change he made
<bilalakhtar> which I guess would be good for a core-dev
<persia> bdrung, Mostly because I forgot.  Can you not do it next time?
<bdrung> persia: ok
<bdrung> bilalakhtar: that's not a reason for becoming a core-dev
<bilalakhtar> bdrung: but it is one of the secondary qualities needed
<bilalakhtar> IIRC
<bilalakhtar> bdrung: you know better, I am still motu
<bdrung> bilalakhtar: yes.
<bdrung> maybe i am to sceptical towards canonical employees.
<ari-tczew> I also disagree with kenvandine application to core-dev. Weak expierence with main.
<kenvandine> most of my work has been in main :)
<ari-tczew> desktop related, right?
<kenvandine> yeah
<ari-tczew> what about other stuff?
<kenvandine> i'd rather not type all that again :)
<ari-tczew> comparing your application with BlackZ, I'm closer to agree with BlackZ but IMO he has got not enough expierence to deal with main alone.
<bdrung> cjwatson, persia: someone should become core-dev, because he/she works on core set packages and not because the packages are in the core set but belong to another set.
<persia> For all that I abstained above, I can't agree with that.
<ari-tczew> bdrung: quadrispro has joined to core-dev.
<persia> bdrung, Yes, but.  1) topic for #ubuntu-devel, 2) the request is in part specifically for desktopy stuff in the core set (which belongs there).
<bdrung> ok, let's move to #ubuntu-devel
<bjf> jibel, you may be interested in: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kernel/StableReleaseCadence as I was just reading your "Kernel SRU" wiki pages
<jibel> bjf, thanks, I've read that doc, the Kernel SRU wiki page is just a brain dump of my previous work on this process.
 * skaet waves
<vanhoof> hi skaet
<skaet> hi vanhoof
<cjwatson> hi
<skaet> its about time to get this started....
<skaet> hi cjwatson :)
<pitti> hello
 * charlie-tca waves
<cjwatson> I was going to try to delegate to resolve a meeting conflict, but failed to do that in time so cancelled the other one instead ...
<skaet> hi pitti, charlie-tca :)
<skaet> cjwatson,  we can look at rescheduling once we have a quorum figured out for this
<skaet> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:02. The chair is skaet.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<Riddell> hi
<skaet> hi Riddell
<skaet> purpose of this meeting is to improve coordination between teams on the stable release (and long term support) long term support updates.
<skaet> meeting agenda is at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/StableReleaseAgenda
<skaet> ts a symbolic link, and will always point to the latest.  I'll be updating it, with minutes from today's meeting, and we'll adapt it in future, as these meetings evolve
<skaet> seem reasonable?
<sconklin> ack
<skaet> Would like to briefly go through some of the bugs on the radar for the 10.04.2 LTS, then move on to discussing the SRU kernel bi-weekly release,   then to general SRU updates.
<zul> hi
<skaet> hi zul
<skaet> for 10.04.2 any update on the kernel bug flagged?
<skaet> Bug #635344 - should it be resolved by an SRU update before, or be part of the 10.04.2?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 635344 in linux (Ubuntu Lucid) "After my CD-Rom is ejected, the tray will instantly retract." [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/635344
<skaet> sconklin?
<sconklin> waiting for launchpad
<skaet> thanks
<cjwatson> wuh?
<pitti> that sounds like an ancient udev cdrom_id issue all over again
<skaet> cjwatson,  there's a few in the foundations list as well for 10.04.2
<pitti> but the main problem there already got fixed years ago, ceratinly much earlier than lucid
<cjwatson> hang on
<sconklin> it's not clear that this is even a kernel bug, we have many bugs more worthy that this one, and there's no known fix, so not sure why it's on the list
<cjwatson> waiting for launchpad to do what?
<sconklin> should have written "no fix described in the bug wrt the kernel"
<cjwatson> oh, right, waiting for launchpad to return the page :-)
<skaet> sconlkin, okie.  lets just get it statused correctly.
<sconklin> I was waiting for launchpad to serve the bug page
<skaet> :)
<sconklin> ..
<cjwatson> skaet: bug 563916 and bug 607657 should definitely be RC for 10.04.2, and are on my list
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 563916 in plymouth (Ubuntu Lucid) "[details.so] No prompt for [S]kip or [M]anual recovery on server boot (or without "splash")" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/563916
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 607657 in base-installer (Ubuntu Lucid) "Lucid point release installer must support LTS backported Kernels" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/607657
<cjwatson> skaet: I asked ev to look at bug 591207 for .1, but it didn't work out, will go round on that again - it's a messy bug
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 591207 in casper (Ubuntu Lucid) "Casper's USB update-initramfs shim should look for initrd.img in /boot" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/591207
<cjwatson> skaet: I confess to having no idea about bug 635273 just now
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 635273 in python-support (Ubuntu Lucid) "Building debs with SWIG libraries do not work" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/635273
<cjwatson> build tool changes scare me slightly in a point release though
<cjwatson> it may be less dangerous to leave this broken
<skaet> cjwatson,  thanks!  ok,  we'll keep tracking these.
<cjwatson> ScottK: ^- you might disagree though
<skaet> do we have anyone from server team?   there's bug #671103
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 671103 in cloud-init (Ubuntu Lucid) "backport grub-legacy-ec2 from maverick to lucid" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/671103
<cjwatson> that got accepted for validation earlier today
<skaet> heh,   ok, didn't spot it in the morning scans.  :)
<skaet> pitti,   how about the bugs against desktop?  bug # 525807,  bug #459647,  bug #625280
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 459647 in compiz (Ubuntu Lucid) "Cannot change mouse cursor theme when compiz is enabled" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/459647
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 625280 in xserver-xorg-video-geode (Ubuntu) "SRU: xserver-xorg-video-geode 2.11.9-1 to Lucid and older supported releases" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/625280
<pitti> skaet: 459647/compiz has been going on and off, and is a problem when running compiz under KDE
<skaet> ack
<skaet> will keep on list then
<pitti> we already had an attempted fix, but it caused regressions and was pulled
<pitti> I wouldn't count on it for .2, and I think at this point we should just declare it broken in lucid
<pitti> instead of jeopardizing stability
<pitti> -geode> fairly recent request; I think it will go through
<skaet> ok
<pitti> so definitively keep geode on the list
<pitti> wrt bug 525807
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 525807 in openoffice.org (Ubuntu Lucid) "[upstream] [3.2.1] OOo Slide Show and Fullscreen modes - not full screen under compiz" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/525807
<pitti> we backported 3.2.1 to lucid-proposed, but there was one regression report, which kept that from flowing to -udpdates
<pitti> we have been looking for an OO.o maintainer for a while now, and are interviewing
<pitti> but since we don't currently have an OO.o maintainer, I'd drop this from the 10.04.2 list
<pitti> (sorry about that)
<skaet> hmm,  still a bit of time for 10.04.2 - so will keep it on the list until jan
<pitti> but neither the original bug nor the regression are even close to "easy"
 * skaet hoping we get an OO.o maintainer hired soon ;)
<pitti> skaet: me too :)
<skaet> :)
<skaet> ok,  that pretty much wraps up what was on my radar for 10.04.2,  anyone have anything to raise as a "to be watched"?
<skaet> [TOPIC] Stable Release Update
<MootBot> New Topic:  Stable Release Update
<cjwatson> just sponsored bug 671097, which I know the server team wants
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 671097 in grub2 (Ubuntu Lucid) "update-grub needs to ignore linux-ec2 kernels" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/671097
<skaet> sconklin,  where are we in this kernel cycle?
<cjwatson> (and belatedly milestoned it)
<skaet> cjwatson, :)
<cjwatson> I sort of hate to bring it up because it's a mess of a bug, but bug 642555 is its usual nasty self
<sconklin> If you look at the new stable cadence wiki page, I've renamed the cycle parts
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 642555 in Ubuntu Lucid "Services not starting on boot in 10.04.1 LTS" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/642555
<sconklin> instead of week1 week2, it's now verification phase and testing phase
<sconklin> since we may not always get the one week time periods
<skaet> cjwatson, rather know about the messes.  thanks.
<cjwatson> there's lots of complex history in the referenced bug 554172
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 554172 in linux (Ubuntu) "system services using "console output" not starting at boot" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/554172
<sconklin> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kernel/StableReleaseCadence
<sconklin> cjwatson: go ahead
<cjwatson> sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt
<skaet> no worries,  its a first meeting, and we have some cadence to figure out,  go ahead
<skaet> signal you're done with .. though ok
<sconklin> looking at that bug
<cjwatson> I don't think we know a good fix for this one, and the same kernel maybe-bug caused a mess in consolekit too (since worked around), but I don't think it's likely that we can improve the kernel here; apw already spent quite a while looking at this
<cjwatson> my gut feel is that we should do something like having upstart (internally?) try a few times to get a console fd, and emit some kind of event when it's done
<cjwatson> I'll need to talk about it with Keybuk/azul though
<sconklin> oh, this could be related to the tty race condition that could be fixed with a change to upstrart, which was rejected as inelegant.
<sconklin> If memory serves
<cjwatson> Keybuk *did* change upstart!
<cjwatson> as a point of information
<apw> cjwatson, there is supposed to be more work coming from upstream which will close the races markedly, though i have not looked to see how much of that is in what is in natty
<sconklin> ok, thanks for correcting that
<cjwatson> however the change was to redirect the console to /dev/null if we lost the race
<cjwatson> so at least we boot now, but we get this bug
<Keybuk> right, and the opposite problem applies to Upstart
<Keybuk> if Upstart is infinite-looping (or event-ing) when a console is ready
<Keybuk> then you may never start the job that causes the console to be created
<cjwatson> what I did in consolekit was to sleep for a bit until a console fd arrived, if we got EIO
<Keybuk> because that needs a console
<Keybuk> etc.
<cjwatson> but I don't think that would work in upstart quite so obviously
<apw> cjwatson, that is the 'approved' upstream solution to the issue
<cjwatson> Keybuk: indeed, so it would need to be "try for a while, and then /dev/null"
<cjwatson> rather than "/dev/null immediately"
<Keybuk> I don't like the "for a while" in init ;-)
<cjwatson> anyway, had intended to talk to you out-of-meeting about it rather than having the technical argument here :)
<apw> (wednesday might be appropriate)
<cjwatson> what's on Wednesday?
<pitti> the upstart tech talk
<apw> Keybuk's master class on upstart
<Keybuk> well, I wouldn't want to spend the opportunity only talking about console devices
<Keybuk> which is more "init covering up for the kernel's shortcomings"
<cjwatson> not really the right forum, indeed
<skaet> ok,  how about an action item to track this discussion offline, and turn it back sconklin.
<sconklin> so - aside from renaming the stable cadence parts:
<sconklin> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kernel/StableReleaseCadence
<sconklin> we're now in the "testing phase" for both maverick and lucid
<sconklin> Lucid has completed cert testing, and no word on regression testing.
<sconklin> I heard from Victor Friday that he had completed cert testing for Lucid in about a day, nice work!
<apw> sconklin, which flavours and which architectures are tested for lucid
<sconklin> victorp: ??
<victorp> apw - is Ubuntu
<victorp> for netbooks
<victorp> desktop edition (laptops and pc_
<victorp> servers
<victorp> need to double check but edition I think includes x32 x64
<victorp> so the same ones that we certify
<sconklin> victorp: is there a place where testing results are publiched?
<victorp> apw - no other Ubuntu flavours at the mo
<sconklin> (This is later in the agenda)
<skaet> victorp,  is there an online report/summary of testing?
<victorp> yes but is not permanent
<victorp> cr3 is going to add a copy to the bug as you suggested
<victorp> http://people.canonical.com/~cr3/hw-testing/lucid-proposed.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~cr3/hw-testing/lucid-proposed.html
<sconklin> would be nice to have arch added to that report
<sconklin> what's the status of cert testing for Maverick?
<sconklin> victorp: ?
<sconklin> ok, while we're waiting for that, what's the status of regression testing for Lucid or Maverick?
<sconklin> tumbleweeds
<skaet> pedro?
<victorp> maverick
<victorp> we just started today
<victorp> so I hope to have everything done tomorrow
<sconklin> victorp: excellent, thanks
<victorp> (done_
<pedro_> we've been running the qa-regression-testing suite on VM's at the moment but we're waiting for real HW or move it to the HW cert lab to have more coverage
<skaet> pedro, jibel,  has there been any regression testing figured out for kernel SRU?
 * skaet too slow on typing - thanks pedro_ 
<victorp> pedro_ can you not run that via checkbox ?
<victorp> pedro_ on hw in the lab?
<pedro_> victorp, we need to talk with cr3 to know if that's possible or not
<victorp> pedro_ ?
<sconklin> Should we hold these kernels until we get definitive regression testing, or hold that cert testing is 'good enough'?
<pedro_> but the perfect solution would be to include the qa-regression-testing suite into checkbox and run the tests on the same machines at the HW cert lab
<skaet> pedro_, any reservations about lucid going out?
<pedro_> that way you'd have more coverage and better chances to catch regressions
<victorp> pedro_ that doesnt make sense to me
<vanhoof> sconklin: victorp: the maverick sru is of top priority for the hwe team
<victorp> pedro_ if that is the perfect solution , what is stopping us from doing it. You can have the HW that you need, so just run them. no?
<pedro_> skaet, not really
<skaet> pedro_, ok.   lets consider that good for now, and work on the regression flow incorporated for next 2 week cadence.
<victorp> vanhoof ack
<pedro_> victorp, as said, we need to talk with cr3 to know if that could be included on checkbox or not and the best way to do it
<sconklin> I'd like to not be in an indefinite hold on these, and cert testing is more than we have had in the past. Can we even get a firm commitment for regressions testing time frame?
<pedro_> victorp, he's the expert, so better to talk with him about it
<skaet> sconklin,  go with lucid right now, and based on tomorrows results from maverick make a decision then?
<victorp> sconklin - I agree
<sconklin> Since we're talking about infrastructure questions, I think the answer to my question is no - we have no firm time frame, and I vote for shipping it
<victorp> sconklin - +1
<pitti> the old approach was to just leave it in proposed for 3 or 4 weeks and hoping for the best that we get told about regressions from the community
<pitti> we can do that again for this round, of course
<skaet> sconklin +1
<sconklin> pitti: given that we'e been through the verification and cert testing, how do you feel about releasing Lucid now?
<victorp> pitti - or until the next security update bumps the baking window
<sconklin> It's effectively been in -proposed since UDS, except for the verification reverts
<pitti> sconklin: it's only 5 days, and there are tons of changes
<pitti> "now" seems exceptionally bold to me TBH
<skaet> victorp, pitti - would like to get lucid out now, if its gone through cert, and get something out.
<pitti> how about next monday? this gives us another week at least
<sconklin> The agreement for the new process was that reverts due to lack of verification would not reset the -proposed bake time
<bjf> pitti, the kernel changes that have been cooking for 5 days are just because of the reverts
<vanhoof> pitti: this has been the same kernel (minus reverts) since ~Oct 20th
<vanhoof> .37 was the first upload w/ this patchse
<pitti> I see
<vanhoof> *set
<victorp> skaet _ I am in favour of going out, rather than wait for a community test that we dont know if it is happening
<pitti> well, I can't say that I'm feeling good about it; I just wanted to say so, but if everyone else wants to push those out, then *shrug*
<pitti> victorp: that's the precise attitude I do _not_ want us to get in to
<pitti> "release it anyway, regardless of feedback"
<pitti> (I know that we did test it on some machines in QA)
<victorp> pitti -?
<pitti> anyway, let's not bring that discussion up again, we had it at UDS
<skaet> pitti,  it has had a lot of tire kicking in the hw cert lab at least, and we did have the prior window.
<pitti> skaet: right, I didn't say that we didn't get feedback on this one
<skaet> pitti,  ack.  ok, we ship lucid.   maverick tbd.
<pitti> just about "I am in favour of going out, rather than wait for a community test"
<pitti> it's a slippery slope
<skaet> pitti, indeed.   we're feeling our way here.
<victorp> pitti you missed -- that we dont know if it is happening
<sconklin> I will say that I will feel better when we have the additional testing, but for now, I think this is the best we can do. And - we've had weeks of community tests, and one week of testing since the reverts
<pitti> victorp: right; my point exactly :)
<skaet> so, since sconklins out tomorrow,  who wants to be part of go/no go decision?
<pitti> for the record -- I don't think that this is the best we can do
<pitti> but I give in
<skaet> for maverick.
<sconklin> ok, who will update the tracking bugs for Lucid to verified?
<bjf> i can make the call for the kernel sru team
<sconklin> as a matter of process?
<victorp> pitti - nevermind, that is not what I meant. As you said we talk about this at UDS at length. lets move on
<bjf> skaet, ^
<pitti> sconklin: I think we spoke about having a kind of "QA regression testing feedback bug" per upload, right?
<vanhoof> just to confirm, the only remaining piece to the puzzle for maverick is cert testing of the -proposed kernel, yeah?
<pitti> sconklin: does that exist for lucid? I guess that's the one we should flip to v-done then?
<sconklin> pitti: there is one for each of maverick and lucid
<pitti> good
<skaet> pedro_, can you scan through the verified bugs for lucid are all reasonable at this stage?
<sconklin> stand by and I'll find the bugs - Not sure whether they made the changelog
<pedro_> skaet, yes, i'll have a look to those and report back to you
<skaet> pedro,  thanks,  will give you and sconklin an action here.
<skaet> to make sure that the bugs for maverick and lucid have been verified.
<sconklin> Lucid testing tracking bug: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/677038
<sconklin> Maverick: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/677021
<skaet> bjf, thanks - will get together with you and victorp tomorrow morning and see where we are with maverick.   pitti, can you join us if I set up a meeting?
<victorp> I see lucid has already the hwcert test on it
<victorp> skaet - morning , US time?
<pitti> skaet: I have desktop team meeting at 1630 UTC, before that is fine
<skaet> victorp,  pitti - will aim for that window.
<victorp> skaet - 3pm UTC is the HW Cert scrum
<victorp> that needs to happen so I can give you an update
<pitti> sconklin: I subscribed ubuntu-sru to 677038; it wasn't liked to the changelog, nor u-sru subscribed, so I didn't see it
<skaet> [ACTION] skaet to set up meeting on maverick
<MootBot> ACTION received:  skaet to set up meeting on maverick
<sconklin> that's all I have on the SRU kernels
<sconklin> ..
<skaet> [TOPIC] general SRU
<MootBot> New Topic:  general SRU
<pitti> sconklin: what do we do about -ec2, dove, etc?
<skaet> there are lots of questions here, can all take an action to go through, and come back on next meeting.
<pitti> sconklin, cjwatson: oh, and we need a d-i rebuild against -26
<pitti> seems the current one in -proposed is against -25
<cjwatson> can be done
<skaet> zul - what is the server SRU report that should be used?   I found two of them?
<sconklin> pitti: -ec2, mvl-dove have not been well discussed, and need to be
<cjwatson> any chance of the current debian-installer going into -updates first though?
<zul> skaet: hi...this is the one we use
<pitti> cjwatson: yes, it's verified
<cjwatson> the current images in -updates are broken
 * skaet is planning at ending this at the hour... so we're in our 5 minute count down. ;)
<pitti> just need to do that publishing exercise
<zul> skaet:  http://people.canonical.com/~chucks/SRUTracker/sru-tracker-bugs.html
<cjwatson> I can do that
<pitti> cjwatson: thanks
<skaet> zul,  thanks.
<cjwatson> since I think I wrote the procedure :)
 * pitti needs to leave in 3 mins, too
<zul> skaet: the other one is really really old
<skaet> any other questions?   here's the other actions I've noted.
<skaet> [ACTION] cjwatson, apw, Keybuk, azul - to come up with resolution on upstart interaction and bug 554172
<skaet> [ACTION]  victorp,  look at adding hardware cert reports with architectures as one of the pieces of info tracked for this
<victorp> skaet - next SRU?
<MootBot> ACTION received:  cjwatson, apw, Keybuk, azul - to come up with resolution on upstart interaction and bug 554172
<MootBot> ACTION received:   victorp,  look at adding hardware cert reports with architectures as one of the pieces of info tracked for this
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 554172 in linux (Ubuntu) "system services using "console output" not starting at boot" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/554172
<cjwatson> skaet: for the logs, could that upstart action be relative to bug 642555, please
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 642555 in Ubuntu Lucid "Services not starting on boot in 10.04.1 LTS" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/642555
<skaet> cjwatson, ack
<sconklin> victorp: we have a security update in the works, which looks like it will cause us to skip a cycle
<skaet> victorp, sconklin - ok, lets deal with this offline
<sconklin> ack
<sconklin> ..
<victorp> ack - just need a date
<victorp> :)
<victorp> skaet - do we have an action for that?
<skaet> [ACTION] victorp, skaet, bjf to set date for next one.
<MootBot> ACTION received:  victorp, skaet, bjf to set date for next one.
 * skaet needs to work on typing speed.  ;)
<sconklin> I'm away for the rest of this week - so bjf and skaet can figure it out
<cjwatson> pitti: published
<skaet> thanks everyone.   will see if we can crisp up a bit for the next meeting in 2 weeks time.
<victorp> thanks!
<sconklin> thanks everyone!
<skaet> minutes will be posted with agenda.  :)
<sconklin> thanks skaet
<skaet> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:00.
<pitti> thanks everyoen
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-11-23
<lifeless> do we have a asia pac meeting tonight
<nigelb> there wasn't one last week, so I'd assume yes
<rodrigo_> diwic: is the meeting now?
<diwic> rodrigo_, yes, but we seem to be the only ones present
<rodrigo_> :)
<diwic> rodrigo_, I pinged awolfson and TheMuso, I'll give them a minute or two and see if they show up
<diwic> awolfson's on the channel, can't see ronoc anywhere
<diwic> ok, let's start
<diwic> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 05:11. The chair is diwic.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<diwic> First; anybody want a topic to add, something we should discuss?
<TheMuso> So I assume we don't have an agenda...
<diwic> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Audio/MeetingAgenda
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Audio/MeetingAgenda
<diwic> [TOPIC] Anything in particular we want to discuss
<MootBot> New Topic:  Anything in particular we want to discuss
<diwic> So; a few days ago I found bug #579300, about OSS emulation removal and a few angry users having their features removed.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 579300 in linux (Ubuntu) "Please disable CONFIG_SOUND_OSS* and CONFIG_SND_*OSS*" [Wishlist,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/579300
<diwic> I still think it's the right thing to do but I would like some arguments :-)
<diwic> TheMuso, do you know more than I do?
<TheMuso> no
<diwic> ok; so basically, this was Daniel's decision and we trust him?
<TheMuso> We both made the decision, as Fedora and other distros have disabled it as well. We meant to get ossproxy packaged for maverick, but that didn't happen.
<rodrigo_> so, this is to make oss apps use pulseaudio?
<TheMuso> Yes
<rodrigo_> then yes, +1 :-)
<diwic> TheMuso, so let's add an action item to package ossproxy for Natty, if we think that'll help
<diwic> Any volunteers?
<TheMuso> It will help.
<TheMuso> If its trivial, I could probably get it packaged when I have a few spare cycles.
<TheMuso> But if someone wants experience in packaging, them feel free to take it, and I am happy to review it.
<rodrigo_> same here, if it's too complicated, I might need help
<rodrigo_> TheMuso, ok, I'll take it, and ask you for help if I can't, ok?
<TheMuso> Sounds good.
<diwic> [AGREED] rodrigo_ to package ossproxy for Natty (with assistance from TheMuso if necessary)
<MootBot> AGREED received:  rodrigo_ to package ossproxy for Natty (with assistance from TheMuso if necessary)
<diwic> Or was that "Action"? Who knows :-)
<TheMuso> I think action is what you want.
<diwic> [ACTION] rodrigo_ to package ossproxy for Natty (with assistance from TheMuso if necessary)
<MootBot> ACTION received:  rodrigo_ to package ossproxy for Natty (with assistance from TheMuso if necessary)
<diwic> Ok, anything else?
<diwic> Let's move on
<diwic> [TOPIC] Any bugs we should look into in particular?
<MootBot> New Topic:  Any bugs we should look into in particular?
<diwic> What's pestering you the most currently?
<rodrigo_> not much, audio working quite good, even on natty :)
<diwic> fantastic :-)
<diwic> I'm currently trying to make upstream ALSA understand the need for consistent volume control naming
<rodrigo_> there's still the GTK3 bugs for indicator, bit the desktop team has plans to coordinate that with unity
<rodrigo_> so, no pestering there
<diwic> The "Front" volume control or switch sometimes control front line-out only, and sometimes headphones and/or internal speakers as well
<rodrigo_> nice :)
<diwic> Front as in the channel (i e not C/LFE/surround), not as in location
<diwic> with the result that we can't code PulseAudio in a way that'll work everywhere
<diwic> I discovered that we have a PA patch that adds "Master Front", and we let that mean something controlling HP and Speakers as well, and let "Front" control the line-out only
<diwic> But upstream doesn't like the "Master Front" and want to change the other name instead
<diwic> *sigh*
<diwic> so now that I've finished moaning, let's move on
<rodrigo_> :)
<diwic>  [TOPIC] Anything in particular we've been working on the previous week
<diwic> [TOPIC] Anything in particular we've been working on the previous week
<MootBot> New Topic:  Anything in particular we've been working on the previous week
<diwic> Well, I've actually started a little on the audio apport symptom
<diwic> I wrote a "Jack" parser from the codec file, see http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/535499/
<diwic> Do you think it looks good?
<TheMuso> Cool.
<rodrigo_> looks ok, but too complex for basic users, I think
<rodrigo_> but looks ok for someone really knowing what is it
<diwic> rodrigo_, hmm? It was based on the suggestion on the UDS session that normal users want to relate to the Jacks rather than the card name
<rodrigo_> ah, ok
<TheMuso> Since I am on rotatino, I just did a little reading of bug mail, and merged packages from Debian, mainly jack stuff.
<diwic> rodrigo_, but I'm open for suggestions
<diwic> TheMuso, so anything interesting coming in from Debian at this point?
<rodrigo_> on my part, since we now have libcanberra-gtk3 in natty, started working on packaging stuff that use it, like gnome-media
<rodrigo_> diwic, not sure what to suggest, so I'll shut up for now :-)
<diwic> rodrigo_, ok, let me know if you have improvement ideas
<rodrigo_> yes, I will
<TheMuso> not that I know of.
<TheMuso> nothing jack wise anyway.
<rodrigo_> although I guess we could accompany that in the UI with a nice picture of the jacks
<rodrigo_> that should make it user-friendly
<rodrigo_> can we do that in the apport stuff?
<TheMuso> Oh rtkit is now synced with Debian, so rtkit is not maintained in pkg-multimedia repos in debian.
<rodrigo_> that is, add an image to the dialog?
<TheMuso> s/not/now/
<diwic> TheMuso, do you have upload rights for those things in Debian?
<TheMuso> No.
<TheMuso> But I have git commit access, so if we need something urgently, I can always temporarily create an Ubuntu branch, make an Ubuntu package, and merge the changes into debian's branch, and an upload to debian will straighten things out.
<diwic> rodrigo_, it's going to be hard for the cli version ;-)
<rodrigo_> diwic, well, average users would probably always use the GUI version, right?
<persia> There's a fair few folk active in Ubuntu with upload access for pkg-multimedia stuff, so it's not typically hard to get an upload there.
<diwic> rodrigo_, but for gtk, it should be possible, I think that'll require a little more knowledge in apport than I currently have
<rodrigo_> diwic, ok, I'll have a look
<diwic> rodrigo_, are you familiar with apport/python?
<rodrigo_> not much with apport, but a little bit, so will look at it
<diwic> ok
<diwic> rodrigo_, lets chat a little about that after the meeting if you like
<rodrigo_> ok
<diwic> Other than that, I've been quite busy with HWE work these weeks, so there hasn't been that much time to do other things
<rodrigo_> HWE?
<diwic> HWE = HardWare Enablement, i e what I'm hired for :-)
<rodrigo_> ah, ok :)
<diwic> Anything else?
<diwic> let's move on
<diwic> [TOPIC] Anything in particular we plan to do the coming week?
<MootBot> New Topic:  Anything in particular we plan to do the coming week?
<rodrigo_> for me, packaging ossproxy and look at the apport stuff, apart from packaging more stuff that uses the libcanberra-gtk3 thing
<diwic> I'll hope I have some time to continue on the apport symptom, perhaps also start on some of the pro-audio-secured stuff.
<TheMuso> Me, nothing on the audio front, unless I am prodded by someone to review/upload audio related packages. :)
<diwic> As for these meetings, I think every 14 days will suffice, rather than once a week, or what do you think?
<TheMuso> Seconded.
<diwic> Btw, do any of you have gmail accounts?
<TheMuso> No, but I do have a canonical calendar hosted on Google.
<TheMuso> i.e a canonical.com google calendar.
<diwic> TheMuso, the same goes for me, and it might cause problems with the fridge calendar
<diwic> But I'll struggle with it to next meeting :-)
<TheMuso> heh
<rodrigo_> diwic, yes, rodrmoya@gmail.com
<diwic> rodrigo_, would you mind following https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Fridge/Calendar instructions and try to set up a meeting dec 7?
<diwic> rodrigo_, and see if it works better for you?
<rodrigo_> ok
<diwic> [AGREED] Meeting interval is every 14 days, next meeting is Dec 7.
<MootBot> AGREED received:  Meeting interval is every 14 days, next meeting is Dec 7.
<awolfson> hello
<TheMuso> Is there anything else that I need to be present for? Its getting late here...
<diwic> TheMuso, I was about to end the meeting unless awolfson or someone else has anything to add?
<rodrigo_> so, Dec 7 at 12PM CET, right?
<diwic> rodrigo_, right
<TheMuso> diwic: sounds good.
<diwic> ok, let's end the meeting then
<diwic> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 05:57.
<diwic> thanks for attending
<TheMuso> thanks folks.
<diwic> awolfson, a little late perhaps :-)
<awolfson> when meeting starts? i thought 7:00 EST?
<rodrigo_> diwic, ok, seems it worked
<awolfson> ooo, looks like 6:00 EST, because of day saving
<rodrigo_> ugh, I removed it
<diwic> awolfson, hmm, hope I didn't calculate things wrong for you
<diwic> awolfson, sorry :-(
<awolfson> diwic, so it is 6:00 my time ?
<diwic> awolfson, I'm afraid so, thought you were at UTC-4
<awolfson> it is 7:04 here now
<awolfson> I guess it is daylight saving change
<diwic> awolfson, maybe
<NCommander> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 06:59. The chair is NCommander.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
 * NCommander notes the laptop clock is a bit fast
<NCommander> who's here?
<NCommander> davidm_: GrueMaster_: ogra: ping?
<NCommander> persia: ?
<ogra> moo
<GrueMaster_> me
<NCommander> oh good, signs of life
<ogra> david is on vacation
<ogra> as well as ricardo
<GrueMaster> no life here
<NCommander> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2010/20101123
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2010/20101123
 * NCommander feels hidious so wishes to make this a short meeting
 * ogra fixes the bugtasks link
<NCommander> [topic] Action Item Review
<MootBot> New Topic:  Action Item Review
<NCommander> skipping non-president people's items
<ogra> ricardos item is done
<NCommander> [topic] ogra_ac and rsalveti to talk to davidm on proper approach to fix Qt
<MootBot> New Topic:  ogra_ac and rsalveti to talk to davidm on proper approach to fix Qt
<ogra> we did that during the meeting iirc
<NCommander> oh
<NCommander> [topic] GrueMaster to fix assigned bugs list
<MootBot> New Topic:  GrueMaster to fix assigned bugs list
<ogra> after you made it an action
<GrueMaster> ogra fixed it before I could.
<ogra> sorry :)
<NCommander> [topic] ogra_ac to follow omap3 kernel situation
<MootBot> New Topic:  ogra_ac to follow omap3 kernel situation
<ogra> still in progress
<ogra> and i looked at ebay
<ogra> under which name is that soul offered ?
 * ogra couldnt find anything
<NCommander> ogra: discovered that eBaying one's soul is against the Terms of Service
<ogra> pfft
<ogra> just name it differently :)
<NCommander> /dev/life?
<ogra> so how is that mono stuff going forward ?
<NCommander> Made some progress, discovered we're not building mono with VFP, and have some test cases
<ogra> cool !
<NCommander> Got sidetracked by being patch pilot and high priority stuff from davidm plus the fact that my lungs are full of uninvited guests
<ogra> well, patch politing is fun :)
<NCommander> Also discovered that cars beside my own are prone to having their doors freeze shut and I'm going to probably be spending part of tomorrow trying to fix that.
<ogra> put graphite on the gasket
 * NCommander notes its a *very* cold day in Portland
<NCommander> ogra: not my car. Wish it was, I won't be afraid I was going to pull off a handle or something
<NCommander> Anyway
<NCommander> [topic] Standing Items
<MootBot> New Topic:  Standing Items
<ogra> heh, rather the gasket
<NCommander> [link] http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/natty/canonical-arm.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/natty/canonical-arm.html
<NCommander> [link] http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/natty/canonical-arm-natty-alpha-1.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/natty/canonical-arm-natty-alpha-1.html
<ogra> we're getting terribly close to the trend line
<NCommander> hrm
<ogra> dont forget A1 in dec. 2nd
<NCommander> my specs are STILL not there
<NCommander> *grumble*
<NCommander> oh wait
<ogra> they are
<NCommander> yes they are, I already did my workitems for this cycle
<NCommander> er
<NCommander> milestone
<NCommander> */half dead*
<NCommander> I thikn I forgot to strike it off my TODO list ...
<NCommander> [link] http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/team-assigned/canonical-mobile-assigned-bug-tasks.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/team-assigned/canonical-mobile-assigned-bug-tasks.html
<ogra> wrong link
<ogra> !!
 * NCommander refreshs
 * ogra fixed it on the wiki
<NCommander> [link] http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/team-assigned/canonical-arm-assigned-bug-tasks.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/team-assigned/canonical-arm-assigned-bug-tasks.html
<GrueMaster> should be [link] http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/team-assigned/canonical-arm-assigned-bug-tasks.html
<NCommander> er no
<ogra> shows that persia is a slacker :)
<NCommander> I didn it wrong twice >.<
 * NCommander notes it would be nice if he attended our meetings ...
<ogra> yes, it would
<NCommander> Finally confirmed bug #626749
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 626749 in flash-kernel (Ubuntu Maverick) "flash-kernel tries to use MTD devices on OMAP4 when no flash-kernel.conf exists" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/626749
 * NCommander coughs
<ogra> but the time is bad for him
<NCommander> There's no actual bug here
<persia> Um, you folk have a funny definition of "attendance"
<NCommander> Cause the code is doing exactly what its supposed to
<ogra> heh
<ogra> NCommander, its not
<ogra> obviously it doesnt use a method the HW can deal with
<NCommander> ogra: I wrote the code to intentionally try to write to NAND if it was on a Beagle Board
<NCommander> Beagle XM says its a Beagleboard
<ogra> yes
<NCommander> I therefore say its a hardware bug, and we need ot fix it software :-)
<NCommander> Thus I'm not at fault
<ogra> you are
<NCommander> :-P
<GrueMaster> beagleXM is omap3
<ogra> since you added that code
<ogra> make it work or remove it
<NCommander> ogra: the cirmstances which the code is being run changed :-P
<persia> It7s generally better to do things like try to detect if there *is* MTD, rather than depending on detection.  Such work is likely to be much more applicable in the future.
<NCommander> but I plan on fixing it anyway
<NCommander> since I have an XM now
<ogra> right
<ogra> more checks please :)
<NCommander> preferable with five figures on them :-)
<NCommander> *preferably
<ogra> that should be possible independently from the board type
<NCommander> ogra: yeah, I plan to add something look for the mtd device and maybe even check for u-boot or something in flash
<ogra> also for a vfat containing uImage etc etc
<ogra> you need to cover all possible cases to make it proper and generic
<NCommander> ogra: right that code is there and is known to work
<persia> Well, kinda.  It works sometimes, for some hardware.
<ogra> .oO(tell that to Neko)
<NCommander> What isn't working is that the code assumes that a board saying its a Beagle has NAND
<NCommander> That assumption proved to be incorrect
<ogra> the bug as about a blaze iirc
<persia> MTD detection, partitioning management, etc. is kinda funny, in several annoying ways.
<ogra> which has only eMMC
<NCommander> d-i has a lot of ugly code dealing with it :-/
<ogra> for which we have no solution yet afaik
<ogra> but your code needs to take that into account too
<NCommander> indeed
<NCommander> [topic] Kernel Status (cooloney)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Kernel Status (cooloney)
<ogra> not around
<GrueMaster> Until I get an upgraded blaze, we have no way of testing it.
<ogra> i have an upgrade card
<ogra> just not in the balze atm
<ogra> *blaze
<NCommander> [topic] QA Status (GrueMaster)
<MootBot> New Topic:  QA Status (GrueMaster)
<GrueMaster> Currently working on test for QT neon.
<ogra> i thought you can only do that next week ?
<GrueMaster> Friday's omap4 image fails to boot after 2nd reboot.  Not sure if it is X related.  Kernel segfaults.
<ogra> did you dig deeper into why the omap4 images dont work ?
<ogra> ah
<GrueMaster> Not yet.
<ogra> might be a toolcahin issue
<ogra> *toolchain
<GrueMaster> I have a pastebin of the console log.
<ogra> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/none-kernel-n-misc has a workitem for us
<ogra> could you take an onap4 image and replace the kernel with the linaro omap3 one ?
<ogra> and see how that works
<ogra> *omap
<ogra> cool, file a bug
<GrueMaster> Will it work on omap4?  I only have a panda.
<GrueMaster> I'll file a bug when I can narrow down the segfault.
<ogra> oh, you dont have your XM with you
<ogra> file the bug asap probably someone can tell something about it
<GrueMaster> I only have my panda.  Thisis a holiday week and I had only planned on working on my blueprints this week.
<GrueMaster> Will do.
<ogra> might be because the kernel wasnt recompiled with the new toolchain or so
<GrueMaster> It boots up to mounting rootfs.
<GrueMaster> jasper boot sequence runs fine.
<ogra> oh
<ogra> thats different indeed
<GrueMaster> exactly.
<ogra> must be userspace then
<GrueMaster> see http://paste.ubuntu.com/535244/
<GrueMaster> I have limited resources, but will try to narrow it down.
<NCommander> can I mov eon?
<GrueMaster> go
<ogra> chvt: can't open console
<ogra> thats your main issue
<NCommander> [topic] ARM Porting/FTBFS status (NCommander)
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM Porting/FTBFS status (NCommander)
<NCommander> mostly mono work
<ogra> any idea how KDE is progressing ?
<ogra> did you talk to ScottK
 * ogra is still waiting for the QT mail from asa
<ogra> c
<NCommander> ogra: didn't have a chance yet
<NCommander> will do so
<ogra> given that he wanted to discuss with thiago at meego conf
<NCommander> [action] NCommander to speak with ScottK on KDE progress
<MootBot> ACTION received:  NCommander to speak with ScottK on KDE progress
<ogra> i see him going wild on the different ARM channels
<ogra> which is awseome :)
<NCommander> [topic] ARM Image Status (ogra, NCommander)
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM Image Status (ogra, NCommander)
<GrueMaster> Not working.
<ogra> U1 acts up today
<ogra> u-n-d-s was fixed
<ogra> i hope if U1 is in sync we will have images again
<ogra> nothing more about image status
<NCommander> [topic] abo
<MootBot> New Topic:  abo
<NCommander> er
<NCommander> [topic] AOB
<MootBot> New Topic:  AOB
<ogra> BOA ?
<ogra> nothing here ... i guess meeting time has to wait until we are complete again
<ogra> persia, anything from you ?
<ogra> i.e. about ubuntu-armel and work items ?
<ogra> i.e. reveal your plans to a wider audience
<persia> Hrm?  Oh, yeah, I want there to be an Ubuntu ARM team, rather than just Canonical ARM.
<persia> I'm not sure how much there is to say about that: it's in part up to you to want to do that :)
<ogra> which is there, but mainly used for bug triage atm
<ogra> well, its trivial to add another WI tracker, i just thought you wanted to elaborate a bit on it
<ogra> i.e. do you want its status covered in this meeting etc
<persia> Dunno how much to elaborate.  I know of several things happening with ARM by people who don't much attend this meeting, so my other encouragemetns to you are mostly about being inclusive.
<ogra> and make sure NCommander invites the people from that team to attend it
<ogra> just having a tracker if nobody watches it doesnt seem to make much sense to me
<persia> Well, if there is a meeting that tracks some ARM stuff, I'd rather track all ARM stuff, and encourage more participants.  I think it's up to individual folk whether they want to participate, to some degree, but I think it would be worthwhile to have an overview of everything happening in ARM.
<ogra> so it would need additional actions around that
<persia> Additional actions?
<ogra> i.e. invites from NCommander and a note in the meeting announcement etc
<ogra> NCommander, oh, btw, the meeting announcement ... we're the ARM team ;(
<ogra> ;)
<ogra> and we should mobve to a new namespace on the wiki
 * GrueMaster never saw one this week.
<persia> The meeting announcement needs help anyway.  Fixing it one way or the other is probably the same work.
<ogra> NCommander, can you handle that ?
<ogra> GrueMaster, it goes to ubuntu-devel now, since thats our new mailing list
<GrueMaster> argh
<ogra> GrueMaster, make sure to be subscribed to it and probably u-d-discuss
<ogra> we talked about it before
<ogra> u-mobile is essentially dead
<ogra> (not sure david removed it completely yet, but that will happen soon)
<NCommander> anything else, or can I close it out?
 * NCommander is feeling pretty close to death ATM
 * ogra waits for answers from NCommander 
<ogra> (and probably some actions)
<ogra> but after that you can happily close :P
<persia> ogra, So, you poked me to talk about a wider team definition.  Do you have an opinion on that?
<NCommander> ogra: which answers?
<ogra> well, as long as the team is included and invited
<ogra> <ogra> NCommander, oh, btw, the meeting announcement ... we're the ARM team
<ogra> <ogra> and we should mobve to a new namespace on the wiki
<ogra> <ogra> NCommander, can you handle that ?
<persia> ogra, The point of inclusiveness is that *everyone* is invited :)  I very much don't want to exclude you (or anyone else).
<ogra> persia, no, but the team members need to know about it
<persia> I'm even happy to create a teamspace on the wiki for an ARM team, if there is to be an open ARM team.
<ogra> so if the announcement needs rephrasing in that direction and the agenda needs points for that, they need to be added
<ogra> i.e. have a ARM Community topic
<persia> NCommander, Give me actions for those, and when you're feeling better, I'll feed you text :)
<ScottK> NCommander and ogra: Qt/KDE is blocked on a gcc fix. The gcc patch was posted upstream for review yesterday, so hopefully we'll see something soon.
<ogra> and point out that everyone is invited in the meeting announcement
<NCommander> [action] persia to handle namespace renaming
<MootBot> ACTION received:  persia to handle namespace renaming
<persia> ogra, You can do something about the WI tracker and bug list?
<ogra> why the bug list ?
<ogra> i can add another team to the tracker, yes
<persia> Same rationale as the WI tracker, really.
<ogra> you need to give me a mail address for the responsible person for broken tracker entries
 * ogra doesnt understand
<ogra> we never subscribe ubuntu-armel to any bugs
<ogra> but we use it to subscribe the whole team to it
<persia> Sure, but members are assigned bugs.
<ogra> persia, ping bdmurray about that, he can help
<persia> Sure.  I'll do that.
<ogra> NCommander, [action] persia and NCommander to work out new meeting announcement text
<ogra> NCommander,  [action] persia to make the bugsquad create a bug overview page for ubuntu-armel
<ogra> (though the latter will highly overlap with our team list i think)
<ogra> NCommander, add these two actions and close the meeting (then back to bed with you !)
<persia> ogra, I expect lots of overlap between Ubuntu ARM and Canonical ARM, which I consider a good thing :)
<ogra> persia, you are aware that no other team does such a distinction ?
<NCommander> [action] persia to make the bugsquad create a  bug overview page for ubuntu-armel
<MootBot> ACTION received:  persia to make the bugsquad create a  bug overview page for ubuntu-armel
<NCommander> [action] persia and NCommander to work out new  meeting announcement text
<MootBot> ACTION received:  persia and NCommander to work out new  meeting announcement text
<NCommander> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 07:53.
<ogra> NCommander, thanks
<zul> hello
<JamesPage> o/
<zul> ttx stop stalking :)
<ttx> o/
<hallyn> \o
<JamesPage> who's in the seat this week?
<hallyn> is Daviey around?
<hallyn> he missed his turn last week, poor sod
<hallyn> otherwise i'ts you, JamesPage :)
<hallyn> though, do we think we have a quorum?
<Daviey> eek, sorry
<JamesPage> saved by the bell (or Daviey in this case...)
<Daviey> Who do we have?
<JamesPage> o/
<Daviey> nobody else!?
<hallyn> o/
<ttx> o/
<smb> \o
 * Daviey glares at SpamapS 
 * SpamapS beams at Daviey
<Daviey> smoser / kirkland / hggdh ?
<smoser> o/
<SpamapS> I had a screaming baby to deal with.. dunno what their excuses are. ;)
<Daviey> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:10. The chair is Daviey.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<Daviey> [TOPIC] Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<MootBot> New Topic:  Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<Daviey> ALL: please check the SRU tracker https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/SRUTracker and help out with verification
<smoser> (excuse: i am actually on vacation )
<Daviey> Did anybody have a chance to look?
<SpamapS> smoser: well then go away. ;)
<Daviey> smoser: Vaca? er what?  What is this?
<SpamapS> Daviey: I did and helped out where I could. I think we should carry that one over to next meeting.
<Daviey> Agreed
<Daviey> [ACTION] please check the SRU tracker https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/SRUTracker and help out with verification (carried over)
<MootBot> ACTION received:  please check the SRU tracker https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/SRUTracker and help out with verification (carried over)
<SpamapS> at least until I complete my action to send a proposal out to ubuntu-devel ;)
<Daviey> robbiew to review /ServerTeam wiki
<Daviey> not here... so carry over
<Daviey> [ACTION} robbiew to review /ServerTeam wiki
<MootBot> ACTION received: [ACTION} robbiew to review /ServerTeam wiki
<Daviey> SpamapS to email a concrete proposal for addressing SRU verification backlog
<SpamapS> not done, carry to next week
<Daviey> [ACTION] SpamapS to email a concrete proposal for addressing SRU verification backlog (carried over)
<MootBot> ACTION received:  SpamapS to email a concrete proposal for addressing SRU verification backlog (carried over)
<Daviey> [TOPIC] Natty Development
<MootBot> New Topic:  Natty Development
<SpamapS> Has anyone else run into FTBFS's due to the linker/compiler changes?
<Daviey> Firstly, I think we are still polishing blueprints and creating work items
<Daviey> Is anyone blocked on any of these parts?
<Daviey> Super!
 * SpamapS predicts the shortest meeting evar ;)
<Daviey> SpamapS: I came across a similar bug to you, regarding DSO :)
<Daviey> libssl DSO'ing libcrypto
<Daviey> Anyone have anything else for Natty devel ?
<Daviey> ok, moving on
<SpamapS> Daviey: yeah thats pretty common I think because almost nobody uses libssl w/o touching libcrypto in some way
<Daviey> Yup.. so we possibly have more FTBFS's at the moment
<Daviey> .... normally just requires adding -lcrypto to the linker line
<Daviey> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
<Daviey> hggdh: are you here?
<Daviey> moving on..
<Daviey> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
<smb> There is not so much updates this week
<Daviey> smb: sadly smoser isn't here to ask about EC2 kernel...
<Daviey> ... but it looks fixed, right?
<smb> Mostly trying to find out why natty does not boot that well on i386
<smoser> yeah, that will result in a boring conversation. without me, there wont be any kernel bugs.
<smb> But as, when it fails, there are no messages at all, most of the time, I am currently trying to get a local env together based on centos
<Daviey> smoser: life is a boring conversation without you
<Daviey> smoser: get back to drinking sangria on the beach.
<smb> Apart from that, if there are questions... :)
<smb> ..
<SpamapS> smoser: not true! I brought an NFS bug
<SpamapS> bug 661294
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 661294 in linux (Ubuntu) "System lock-up when receiving large files (big data amount) from NFS server" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/661294
<Daviey> smb: Okay... so you are working on this at the moment with smoser?
<smb> Currently without smoser because he is on vacation
<smb> But otherwise yep
<SpamapS> smb: there seems to be a patch linked to in the comments that directly addresses this issue.. wondering how likely it is that it will be applied in natty
<Daviey> [ACTION] Follow up on EC2 status
<MootBot> ACTION received:  Follow up on EC2 status
<Daviey> smb: SpamapS's question ?
<smb> SpamapS, As this is the first time I seem to see that bug mentioned, it is hard to tell a lot
<Daviey> smb: Understood... putting you on the spot a lttle... not essential for a response now
<SpamapS> smb: thats fine, I just wanted to get it on your radar.
<smb> SpamapS, Success
<Daviey> but can you get someone from your team to update the bug before next week please? :)
<smb> I put it on the list
<Daviey> [ACTION] Kernel team to follow up on bug #https://launchpad.net/bugs/661294
<MootBot> ACTION received:  Kernel team to follow up on bug #https://launchpad.net/bugs/661294
<Daviey> moving on?
 * SpamapS does a fist bump w/ smb and then gets nostalgic for mathiaz.. <sniff>
<Daviey> (thanks smb)
<Daviey> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions for the Documentation Team (sommer)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the Documentation Team (sommer)
<Daviey> he isn't here :(
<Daviey> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions for the Ubuntu Community Team (kim0)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the Ubuntu Community Team (kim0)
<Daviey> he isn't here :(
<Daviey> [TOPIC] Open Discussion
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open Discussion
<Daviey> nothing here..
<Daviey> anyone?
<SpamapS> I was thinking one thing..
<SpamapS> which is just that the WI tracker seems very incomplete..
<Daviey> SpamapS: is it family friendly?
<Daviey> SpamapS: it would be, the WI's aren't complete yet
<zul> SpamapS: because some of us are blocked on somethings
<Daviey> addionally, does the WI pull in non-approved specs?
<SpamapS> right, I just was going to ask when its supposed to be?
<SpamapS> Daviey: no it does not
<SpamapS> So thats probably why it seems so low
<Daviey> I imagine this week, robbiew will be doing a final pass
<Daviey> jumping on people to get them complete
<SpamapS> Also I wonder if here is the place to discuss the ubuntu-server package set?
<SpamapS> I think we should actually discuss it next week...
<Daviey> SpamapS: I'm not sure we have a wide enough audience tbg
<SpamapS> light crew today
<Daviey> tbh*
<zul> probably...but what has been done and put it on the agenda for next week :)
<Daviey> moving on?
<Daviey> [TOPIC] Announce next meeting date and time
<MootBot> New Topic:  Announce next meeting date and time
<zul> yeah i just have one question
<zul> why is there a seperate "cloud community meeting"
<SpamapS> Oh yeah good point zul
<Daviey> Gooooooood question!
<SpamapS> especially since we have a community member who never shows up to these meetings.
<ttx> who ?
<SpamapS> s/community/community team/
<Daviey> zul: Do you want to take the action of speaking with kim0 to find out what it is about?
<zul> i was going to bug jono about it
<Daviey> ... and find out if it might be better to unify the meeting
<ScottK> Actually I think it'd be kind of nice to split all the cloud stuff into it's own meeting.
<Daviey> zul: I would speak with kim0 first.
<zul> Daviey: ack
<SpamapS> ScottK: I think thats worthy of a discussion here definitely.
<Daviey> ScottK: Well yes... but our community isn't wide enough to split yet :)
<Daviey> Next meeting, Tuesday 2010-11-23 at 1600 UTC - #ubuntu-meeting
<Daviey> Be there, or be square!
<ScottK> Daviey: I think the emphasis on cloud stuff depresses community involvement from those who haven't signed up for the right drugs.
<Daviey> ScottK: ack.. the whole team know this.... but until the team becomes large enough, and a critical mass.... we can then talk about seperating
<Daviey> ScottK: Considering many of the Ubuntu Server team are working on cloud stuff... this meeting would be even more lonely :)
<SpamapS> Its worth having the discussion here at some point soon
<Daviey> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:31.
<ScottK> Daviey: On the other hand, I think the server community will keep getting smaller until you make the split.
<SpamapS> Daviey: thanks!
<Daviey> ScottK: Do you want to add it to next weeks agenda?
<SpamapS> ScottK: that seems a bit extreme. The server product is essential to the cloud, the overlap is *huge*
<ScottK> Daviey: I'm not usually available at this time, so I'm not the best one for it.
<Daviey> ScottK: Well that is a challenge :(
<ScottK> SpamapS: That's an interesting theory that doesn't seem to be matched by Canonical's messaging on the subject.
<Daviey> ScottK: you are the most vocal about this concern, so I think you are a required participant of that discussion
<Daviey> ScottK: Can you add it to the agenda for a meeting you can attend?
<ScottK> Daviey: I'm only rarely available on Tuesdays (only here now because a meeting got cancelled today).
<ScottK> I have no way of knowing when that would be.
<Daviey> :(
<Daviey> ScottK: Is there someone you can load as a proxy?
<ScottK> Not really.
<bjf> #
<bjf> # lets "get 'er done"!
<bjf> #
<JFo> woo!
<bjf> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 11:00. The chair is bjf.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<apw> o/
<cking> o/
<jjohansen> o/
<bjf> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<bjf> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Maverick
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Maverick
<bjf> #
<bjf> # NOTE: '..' indicates that you are finished with your input.
<bjf> #
<bjf> [TOPIC] ARM Status (bjf)
<bjf>  * Marvel (mvl-dove)
<bjf>    * Marvell's latest LSP, 5.3.6 has been integrated into our tree and uploaded.
<bjf>  * Freescale (fsl-imx51)
<bjf>    * Nothing new this week
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM Status (bjf)
<bjf>  * Texas Instruments (ti-omap)
<bjf>    * Bug #666267 - Added DKMS package to this bug and asked for help from Mario. TI is
<bjf>      still based on the 2.6.35 kernel. It is unlikely that we will be cherry-picking
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 666267 in linux-ti-omap4 (Ubuntu) "Cross compiled headers package breaks DKMS compilation" [Medium,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/666267
<bjf>      patches due to their proliferation all over the tree. They (TI) may move to 2.6.38
<bjf>      next year.
<bjf> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Release Metrics (JFo)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Release Metrics (JFo)
<JFo> Release Meeting Bugs (6 bugs, 13 Blueprints)
<JFo> ==== Alpha 1 Milestoned Bugs (13 across all packages (down 1)) ====
<JFo>  * 0 linux kernel bugs (no change)
<JFo>  * 0 linux-ti-omap bugs (no change)
<JFo>  * 0 linux-meta-ti-omap bug (no change)
<JFo> ==== Release Targeted Bugs (95 across all packages (up 9)) ====
<JFo>  * 3 linux kernel bugs (no change)
<JFo>  * 0 linux-ti-omap bugs (no change)
<JFo>  * 0 linux-meta-ti-omap bug (no change)
<JFo> ==== Milestoned Features ====
<JFo>  * 1 blueprints (Including HWE Blueprints)
<JFo> ==== Bugs with Patches Attached:140 (up 2) ====
<JFo>  * [[https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bugs?field.has_patch=on | Bugs with Patches]]
<JFo>  * [[http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ogasawara/csv-stats/bugs-with-patches/linux/ | Breakdown by status]]
<JFo> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: Natty Bug Handling (JFo)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-bug-handling
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: Natty Bug Handling (JFo)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-bug-handling
<JFo> nothing to report this week
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: Kernel Configuration Review (apw)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-config-review
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: Kernel Configuration Review (apw)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-config-review
<apw> All configuration changes from the UDS review session are now applied and uploaded.  Also the AGP drivers of interest have been identified and moved built-in.  Only two items remain, neither critical for natty-alpha-1.  These items are still on track for natty-alpha-1 completion.
<apw> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: Enhancements to the firmware test suite (cking)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-firmware-test-suite-enhancements
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: Enhancements to the firmware test suite (cking)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-firmware-test-suite-enhancements
<cking> Changes to fwts (natty development branch):
<cking>  * Add in methods tests - 69 new tests to exercise AML Methods
<cking>  * Added error checking with CMOS reads
<cking>  * Improved FACS 32/64 pointer mismatch checks in FADT
<cking>  * Check for \_SB_._OSC buffer overflows
<cking> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: Handling of Deviations from Standard Kernels (smb)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-stable-frankenkernel-maintenance
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: Handling of Deviations from Standard Kernels (smb)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-stable-frankenkernel-maintenance
<smb> Just sent out some rfc for the in-tree documentation
<smb> Suggestion was for json format but making it simpler for a script seems not a good reason for changing the format for now
<smb> So I would still go with the maintainers format for now
<smb> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: Review of the Stable Maintenance Process (sconklin / bjf)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-stable-process-review
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: Review of the Stable Maintenance Process (sconklin / bjf)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-stable-process-review
<bjf> We've successfully wrapped up our first trial of the new stable kernel process. Lucid and Maverick
<bjf> kernels currently in -proposed are being promoted to -updates today. Everyone involved in the new
<bjf> process have identified areas they will be working to improve for the next cycle. Current thinking
<bjf> is the next cycle will start with an upload on Dec. 9.
<bjf> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: Ubuntu Kernel Delta Review (apw)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-ubuntu-delta-review
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: Ubuntu Kernel Delta Review (apw)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-ubuntu-delta-review
<apw> aufs2 updated to official 2.6.37-rcN release from upstream. LIRC patches dropped to clean up the delta. 6 of the 21 personal patch reviews are now done. Some of these are likely to miss the natty-alpha-1 deadline, but none are release critical for the milestone.
<apw> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: Kernel Version and Flavours (apw)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-version-and-flavours
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: Kernel Version and Flavours (apw)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-version-and-flavours
<apw> Discussions are ongoing as to the kernels to use for omap3, this centres around whether the Linaro kernel is fully featured enough and what levels of support we are able to provide for it.  Discussions continue but we are currently waiting on testing of the Linaro kernel against the current userspace.  This will not become critical until natty-alpha-2.
<apw> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Status: Natty (apw)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Status: Natty (apw)
<apw> The distro kernels are now rebased onto v2.6.37-rc3 and uploaded.  This latest kernel includes a further update to aufs bringing it in line with upstream.  It also carries the bulk of the configuration changes identified at UDS, harmonising a number of options; where those options are there to fix FTBS those are now documented.  It also carries a preview of the latest version of the "200 line" miracle automatic scheduler group patch, any feedback on t
<apw> his kernel appreciated.  Testing generally remains good.
<apw> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Security & bugfix kernels - Maverick/Lucid/Karmic/Hardy/Dapper (sconklin / bjf)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Security & bugfix kernels - Maverick/Lucid/Karmic/Hardy/Dapper (sconklin / bjf)
<bjf> ||                         || Upd./Sec.     || Proposed      || TiP || Verified    ||
<bjf> || Dapper: Kernel          || 2.6.15-55.89  ||               ||     ||             ||
<bjf> || Hardy:  Kernel          || 2.6.24-28.80  ||               ||     ||             ||
<bjf> || =       LRM             || 2.6.24.18-28.7||               ||     ||             ||
<bjf> || Karmic: Kernel          || 2.6.31-22.68  ||               ||     ||             ||
<bjf> || =       mvl-dove        || 2.6.31-214.30 || 2.6.31-214.32 ||     ||             ||
<bjf> || =       ec2             || 2.6.31-307.21 ||               ||     ||             ||
<bjf> || Lucid:  Kernel          || 2.6.32-26.47  ||               ||     ||             ||
<bjf> || =       LBM             || 2.6.32-25.24  || 2.6.32-26.25  ||     ||             ||
<bjf> || =       mvl-dove        || 2.6.32-209.25 || 2.6.32-211.27 ||     ||             ||
<bjf> || =       fsl-imx51       || 2.6.31-608.19 || 2.6.31-608.20 ||     ||             ||
<bjf> || =       ec2             || 2.6.32-309.18 ||               ||     ||             ||
<bjf> || = lts-backport-maverick || 2.6.35.22.34  ||               ||     ||             ||
<bjf> || Maverick: Kernel        || 2.6.35-23.40  ||               ||     ||             ||
<bjf> || =       mvl-dove        || 2.6.32-410.27 ||               ||     ||             ||
<bjf> || =       ti-omap4        || 2.6.35-903.18 ||               ||     ||             ||
<bjf> * Lucid and Maverick -proposed kernels promoted to -updates.
<bjf> * Call for further testing of ec2 and ARM -proposed kernels for Lucid and Maverick.
<bjf>   I've pinged Tobin Davis for ARM.
<bjf> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Incoming Bugs: Regressions (JFo)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Incoming Bugs: Regressions (JFo)
<JFo> Incoming Bugs
<JFo> 19 Natty Bugs (up 7)
<JFo> 1062 Maverick Bugs (up 37)
<JFo> 1088 Lucid Bugs (up 6)
<JFo> Current regression stats (broken down by release):
<JFo> ==== regression-potential ====
<JFo> As this tag is deprecated, this listing is only to ensure that I keep it on my radar until
<JFo> changes to the apport hooks and my processing of the currently tagged bugs is completed.
<JFo>   * 3 natty bugs
<smb> bjf, You should ping me for ec2
<JFo>   * 396 maverick bugs (up 32 since the final maverick meeting)
<JFo>   * 177 lucid bugs (up 14 since the final maverick meeting)
<JFo> ==== regression-update ====
<JFo>   * 20 maverick bugs (no change)
<JFo>   * 78 lucid bugs (up 1)
<JFo>   * 6 karmic bugs (no change)
<JFo>   * 0 hardy bugs (no change)
<JFo> ==== regression-release ====
<JFo>   * 156 maverick bugs (up 9)
<JFo>   * 192 lucid bugs (down 1)
<JFo>   * 40 karmic bugs (no change)
<JFo>   * 2 hardy bugs (no change)
<JFo> ==== regression-proposed ====
<JFo>   * 13 maverick bugs (no change)
<JFo>   * 6 lucid bugs (down 1)
<JFo>   * 1 karmic bug (no change)
<JFo> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Incoming Bugs: Bug day report (JFo)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Incoming Bugs: Bug day report (JFo)
<JFo> Today is the Bug Day. It is focusing on Bugs with patches so that I can focus
<JFo> on getting the particular process I must use to address these bugs organized.
<JFo> I will likely be pinging several of you with questions over the next week as
<JFo> I work to finalize these steps and get them documented.
<JFo> The next bug day will on December 7th. I will define the scope of that bug day in my e-mail
<JFo> to the list so that I can take some time to determine what the best use of that
<JFo> day will be.
<JFo> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Triage Status (JFo)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Triage Status (JFo)
<JFo> Spoke this week with Tapas Mishra who is interested in helping out. We had a great conversation on where to start. This conversation had been preceeded by someone providing several key links to wiki documentation that provided a first step toward Tapas' desire to work on wireless issues. My recommendation was to look at current wireless bugs that have been filed and use those issues to gain an understanding of the type of issues we see with wirele
<JFo> ss drivers. Unforunately, due to the modular, and sometimes closed corporate nature of wireless drivers, we don't have a way to help someone who is interested in beginning coding on wireless drivers, but I am hopeful that the information I was able to provide and the recommendations smb and I made will be helpful.
<JFo> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Open Discussion or Questions: Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open Discussion or Questions: Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
<smb> \o
<apw> o/
<bjf> smb, go
<smb> Just a question how comfortable those with upload rights are with the patch piloting
<smb> And whether they would know what to do.
<smb> ..
 * apw has no clue
<apw> there are some links in the original email which are intended to help one
<smb> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/CodeReviews
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/CodeReviews
<apw> know what the heck to do.  probabally its going to be a shambles
<apw> :)
<apw> ..
<smb> Ok, so as much knowledge there as I have
<smb> ..
<bjf> apw, go
<apw> just a heads up that alpha1 is coming up.  get your changes in
<apw> ..
<bjf> if there is nothing else ...
<bjf> thanks everyone
<bjf> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:17.
<cking> thanks bjf
<jjohansen> thanks bjf
<smb> thanks bjf
<hggdh> sorry, was on an appointment
<JFo> thanks bjf
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-11-24
<mvo> hello
<jhunt> hi
<barry> hi
<doko> hi
<Keybuk> hi
<cjwatson> hi, sorry I'm late, was helping out support
<cjwatson> is Robbie here?
<jhunt> no sign in London :)
<mvo> he is on vacation
<mvo> I think
 * mvo checks the calendar
<mvo> yep, all week
<jhunt> Apologies for absence on behalf of ev - he's not allowed into the building (looks too much like a student clearly :)
<mvo> sounds like a quick meeting then, half the team is on vac or strike :P
<doko> strike?
<mvo> (or preparing for a TV career)
<mvo> doko: ev is out in millbank with the students
<jhunt> he's back!
<doko> milksop ...
<cjwatson> ah, well in that case TBH the only thing I have to say is that we have alpha-1 next week and it would actually be kinda nice if the archive were vaguely installable
<mvo> doko: haha - I learned a new word today
<cjwatson> if people could look through the uninstallables list and try to poke things into workingness, that would be appreciated
<barry> note: it's thanksgiving in the usa tomorrow so i'm out thu & fri
<cjwatson> is anyone feeling stuck on anything?
<doko> that's http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/testing/natty_probs.html
<doko> barry: no thanks before giving me python3.2
<barry> doko: yeah, the --enable-shared bug is unrelated, so i'll commit that patch rsn
<doko> barry: which bug number is this?
<cjwatson> actually, here
<cjwatson> #startmeeting
<barry> doko: http://bugs.python.org/issue10520
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:15. The chair is cjwatson.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<cjwatson> since we're all here anyway
<mvo> that list does not look too bad currently
<cjwatson> can we have a quick lightning round?  I want to make sure I'm ready to do a team report on Friday in case we end up having the release meeting after all
<cjwatson> mvo: can you go first?
<mvo> sure
<mvo> slightly shorter week, friday off; apt: added apt-get changelogs and apt-get download, uploaded to natty; some merges; work on rnr-server (review, landed "make-lint" branch); software-center: bugfix, test-improvements, use native python-apt tagfile parser (quicker); synaptic: work on gtk3 branch; Vmbuilder: upload natty version (that can build natty and maverick VMs) and SRU maverick so that we can have maverick VMs on a maverick host (sic!)
<mvo> ; Work on msttcorefonts SRU for #670629
<mvo> (done)
<mvo> I would have liked to talked abut vmbuilder with robbie
<cjwatson> about who's maintaining it, you mean?
<mvo> yeah
<mvo> that someone should maintian it enough so that on a new release a target for that is added
<mvo> I'm happy to do that myself if I get access to trunk
<mvo> need to have another word with soren I guess
<mvo> but ideally it would be someone using it more
<mvo> I just need it for my auto-upgrade base images
<cjwatson> ok, I'll assume that's still on your to-do list - we ought to at least be able to do that level of maintenance routinely, perhaps put it on NewReleaseCycleProcess as a reminder?
<mvo> sounds good
<cjwatson> jhunt: ?
<jhunt> Half day spent on lp:#674146 (put on hold for now), plymouth
<jhunt> investigations (including reviewing cjwatsons plymouth-upstart-bridge
<jhunt> upstart+plymouth branches+patches), wrote Plymouth wiki page after
<jhunt> research (http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Plymouth), Fixed bug in
<jhunt> lp:ubuntu/plymouth only to find it was fixed in lp:plymouth :-(, lots of
<jhunt> upstart code reading and investigations (creating debug env, testing,
<jhunt> prepping a new upstart manual page ("init-examples"), wrote a
<jhunt> bash-completion script for upstart (to be sent to Debian via cjwatson?)
<cjwatson> s/ via cjwatson/ in a bug report/ I think, but our packaging is sufficiently independent of Debian's AIUI that it should go in there directly too
<cjwatson> or else put it in the upstream source ...
<cjwatson> (but you/Keybuk know better about that than I)
<Keybuk> packaging of bash-completion?
 * mvo added vmbuidler to NewReleaseCycleProcess? now
<cjwatson> I think it's usual to just have  bashcompletiondir = $(sysconfdir)/bash_completion.d \n bashcompletion_DATA = upstart  in a Makefile.am somewhere
<cjwatson> or words to that effect
<Keybuk> it seems that bash-completion supplies all of its completions
<Keybuk> so it should go in there, no?
<Keybuk> otherwise upstart would grow files for every single possible shell
<cjwatson> um, it's mixed
<cjwatson> but either's valid
<cjwatson> grub ships a bash-completion file of its own; sometimes what the completions should be is tied relatively closely to the version of the software being completed, IYSWIM
<cjwatson> I'm sure the bash-completion maintainers would take a patch if you prefer that though
<cjwatson> anyway, let's continue
<cjwatson> barry: ?
<Keybuk> I prefer that
<barry> was out sick a few days.  subversion (fixed) and vte (inprogress) ftbfs.  bug 662611 (virtualenv incompatibility). python issue 9807 to land and close today.  sbuild/schroot backporting for session keeping on build failure.  off thu & fri due to usa holiday. done.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 662611 in python-virtualenv (Ubuntu) "Not compatible with python2.7" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/662611
<barry> vte is bug 674175
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 674175 in vte (Ubuntu) "rebuild python-vte for python2.7" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/674175
<cjwatson> barry: thanks.  (one of these days I must convert my shonky local chroot setup to sbuild/schroot.)
<barry> cjwatson: the version in natty is very cool
 * mvo too
<cjwatson> my updates:
<cjwatson> done: new grub2 snapshot, lots of upstream build fixes since I haven't done new snapshots for three months so of course it all stopped working; fixed rsyslog so installer is debuggable again; SRU catchup
<cjwatson> todo: assemble initial blacklist for grub2-boot-framebuffer and package it somewhere; patch pilot morning on Tuesday; apparently I'm driving archive admin stuff for alpha-1
<cjwatson> --
<cjwatson> (so this means I will be sweating over hot CD images next week, and grab me this week instead if you want me for anything non-trivial :-/)
<cjwatson> doko: ?
 * barry is patch piloting on monday
<doko> spent most time on an internal project, plus openjdk-6 security updates, merges, submit bug reports to debian, armel fix, upstream binutils and gcc fix, prepare python3.2 update (before thanksgiving)
<doko> --
<doko> toolchain armel fixes are these
<cjwatson> doko: thanks.  are we targeting python3.2 as the only python3 version in natty?
<barry> +1
<doko> cjwatson: I'm trying, yes. will make it the default when 3.2beta1 is release
<doko> d
<cjwatson> doko: *nod*
<cjwatson> Keybuk: ?
 * cjwatson guesses the Millbank student mob has got hungry and eaten Keybuk
<apw> Keybuk is in the wrong os .... and doing a presentation
<cjwatson> oh, the tech talk
<cjwatson> of course
<cjwatson> ok, aob?
<cjwatson> I'll take that as a no
<cjwatson> thanks all
<cjwatson> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:36.
<barry> thanks
<mvo> thanks
<highvoltage> Anyone present for Edubuntu meeting?
 * mhall119 is late
<mhall119> and I have nothing to report
 * alkisg is too late :D
<highvoltage> seems like most were :)
<highvoltage> what the heck, I'll post a small summary anyway.
<highvoltage> * Current daily builds are broken due to a broken dependency in sabayon (broke with sync from debian that has packaging differences) (should be fine tomorrow again)
<highvoltage> * For alpha 1 things are kind of shakey since natty isn't really in a fantastic state atm but it's the first alpha so it's completely expected
<highvoltage> (alpha 1 is scheduled for 2 December)
<highvoltage> hmm, that's actually all that comes to mind :)
<highvoltage> besides a blog post on ltsp fat clients that I'll post a bit later (just going to show it to stgraber to make sure that I don't say anything completely wrong in there) before posting it
<highvoltage> it answers some of the same questions we get over and over on the edubuntu-users list :)
<mhall119> I haven't checked the daily lately, have they landed gnome 3 yet?
<mhall119> last time I checked, it wasn't even in the natty repos
<highvoltage> mhall119: gnome-shell is currently broken, gnome3-session almost kind of works, there are big parts there but it's incomplete
<highvoltage> there's also edubuntu-council renewal,
<mhall119> okay, I'll give it another try, as long as dconf/GSettings is there and the panels/desktop are using it, I should be able to get started
<highvoltage> I'm not 100% sure what the exact outcome will be. the CC will re-elect current council (minus Richard who is stepping down), and we only had mgariepy being nominated so we'll wait on the CC for further instructions
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-11-25
 * charlie-tca waves
<highvoltage> hey charlie-tca
<charlie-tca> Are we all here?
<charlie-tca> cody-somerville, here?
 * cody-somerville is here.
<highvoltage> I guess mhall119 will be here too
<charlie-tca> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 13:01. The chair is charlie-tca.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<charlie-tca> Well, let's do this then. The agenda for today is
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Agenda
<MootBot> New Topic:  Agenda
<charlie-tca> # Old business
<charlie-tca> # Team updates (Packaging, Bug Triage, Development / Coding, Testing, Documentation, Artwork)
<charlie-tca> # Announcements
<charlie-tca> # Changes for Natty Narwhal
<charlie-tca> # Continue working with the new Governance structure
<charlie-tca> # Any Other Business
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Old business
<MootBot> New Topic:  Old business
<charlie-tca> Carried over from the last meeting:
<charlie-tca> charlie-tca to get with thorwil and Saleel about artwork specs by email
<charlie-tca> There is now a lively discussion taking place on the community artwork mailing list -
<charlie-tca> [LINK] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-art/2010-November/012604.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-art/2010-November/012604.html
<charlie-tca> We have drawn up a draft of artwork specs for Xubuntu wallpaper, and any input is welcomed.
<charlie-tca> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Specs/0007_Xubuntu_Natty_Wallpaper
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Specs/0007_Xubuntu_Natty_Wallpaper
<bittin> has the Xubuntu meeting started?
<highvoltage> bittin: yep
<charlie-tca> If you aren't on the ml, let me know and I will forward suggestions/guidance
<charlie-tca> Welcome, bittin
<bittin> iam on the ml
<bittin> hackerbittin@googlemail.com
<cody-somerville> Interesting discussions going on there.
<charlie-tca> That was for the artwork mailing list, bittin
<bittin> ah
<bittin> sorry
<charlie-tca> Along with the wallpaper discussion there,
<charlie-tca> Ochosi is currently reworking the xubuntu gtk-theme (aka bluebird), feel free to check it out @ http://shimmerproject.org/hg/bluebird-colors > greybird. in response to the reviews being somewhat divided regarding the blue i started by reducing it
<cody-somerville> Is Bluebird based off of Albatros at all?
<charlie-tca> um, yes, in that it does use the same engine and started there
<cody-somerville> I met the author of Albatros at UDS Brussels. I was surprised to find out that he is the same guy who did Ubuntu's new themes.
<charlie-tca> Ochosi is particularily interested in  * panel
<charlie-tca>  * window-switcher (alt-tab)
<charlie-tca>  * scrollbars
<charlie-tca> He is a really good artist.
<cody-somerville> charlie-tca, Ochosi or the author of Albatros?
<charlie-tca> the author of Albatros
<cody-somerville> Is he helping us with Natty?
<charlie-tca> Not to take anything away from ochosi, either
<charlie-tca> the albatross author is not helping at the moment
<cody-somerville> (Interesting tidbit, the Author of Albatros is actually a cop in real life)
<highvoltage> cool :)
<charlie-tca> neat1
<cody-somerville> charlie-tca, so is the 'lighter' theme a direction we're going to continue with for natty?
<cody-somerville> ('lighter' as in color)
<charlie-tca> I hope so
<charlie-tca> dark is nice, but lighter is easier for accessibility
<charlie-tca> Ochosi is also working on an xfce-complete version of faenza (based on 0.7) which you can check out here: http://shimmerproject.org/hg/faenza-xfce
<charlie-tca> Please give feedback to myself or ochosi on IRC
<charlie-tca> um, if anybody else wants to pick up this artwork thing, I would be thrilled
<charlie-tca> I am like a fish out of water with it sometimes
 * cody-somerville is no artist either.
<charlie-tca> Well, that's all I have on artwork. Any questions or comments?
<charlie-tca> I am going to consider the artwork action item closed. I will continue to pursue things with the artwork community.
<charlie-tca> The other two action items, I did not get to.
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Team updates
<MootBot> New Topic:  Team updates
<charlie-tca> mr_pouit, did you make it?
<charlie-tca> From the developers team: the only "news" since last week is the upload of exo 0.5.5 to natty ;-)
<charlie-tca> Unless cody-somerville or micahg has more?
<cody-somerville> Nothing in particular from me today
 * micahg is still learning
<charlie-tca> From the documentation team:
<charlie-tca> We do have an individual working the Xubuntu docs. He is working on updating things and I will have more on that the next meeting.
<charlie-tca> From the bugs and testing team: We are hoping to see more people involved in testing. If we do not have anyone committed to test, we will not produce the image.
<charlie-tca> For Alpha1, we will have i386 and amd64 images
<charlie-tca> We already discussed artwork, and we really need a marketing director
<charlie-tca> Any questions on team updates?
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Announcements
<MootBot> New Topic:  Announcements
<charlie-tca> We will be putting out the Natty Alpha1 cd's next week. These are the first of a great release! It will not have Xfce4.8 in alpha1, though.
<charlie-tca> We would really appreciate any help with testing these images starting November 30
<charlie-tca> Any other announcements?
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Continue working with the new Governance structure
<MootBot> New Topic:  Continue working with the new Governance structure
<charlie-tca> There should have been an action item last time for this, too.
<charlie-tca> I sent out an email to both Xubuntu Developers mailing list and the Community Council that we are looking to have a permanent Project Lead.
<charlie-tca> It does take two nominees to have an election.
<charlie-tca> I will be a nominee, and will send my name to the CC this next week. Nominations are open until the 15th of December.
<charlie-tca> I do not want to go through another release without this happening, please.
<charlie-tca> any comments?
<charlie-tca> Feel free to speak up. I promise not to bite anyone!
 * highvoltage is just reading
<highvoltage> charlie-tca: who may nominate and who may be nominated, btw?
<charlie-tca> Well, I feel this is very important, and don't really see a need to continue the rest of the governance discussions until we can do something.
<charlie-tca> any individual may nominate him/her self or another person.
 * micahg was going to nominate charlie-tca
<charlie-tca> Nominee names need to be sent to the CC
<highvoltage> micahg: I second that
<charlie-tca> see https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/xubuntu-devel/2010-November/007614.html
<charlie-tca> I will accept the nomination, but I think we will need two names to have a vote. I did give the CC a second proposal, though. We will see what happens
<charlie-tca> Any other discussion on governance?
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Any Other Business
<MootBot> New Topic:  Any Other Business
<charlie-tca> Okay, everybody at once now
<charlie-tca> going...
<charlie-tca> going 2....
<charlie-tca> I will thank all of you for attending. Next meeting is Thursday, 2 Dec, same place, 19:00 UTC. Minutes will be published again.
<highvoltage> micahg: are you going to email the CC?
<micahg> highvoltage: charlie-tca said he was going to nominate himseld
<charlie-tca> Meeting times and minutes are kept at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings
<highvoltage> ok cool
<micahg> *himself, does there need to be more people nominating him?
<charlie-tca> micahg, yes, I think there should be.
<charlie-tca> I will not nominate myself if you want to
<micahg> charlie-tca: ok, I'll be happy to send a mail then
<charlie-tca> Thank you
<charlie-tca> Anything else?
<micahg> charlie-tca: thank you for doing such a great job as Project Lead :)
<charlie-tca> Thank you very much!
<charlie-tca> I am learning everyday
<charlie-tca> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 13:35.
<beardygnome> sorry I'm late
<charlie-tca> No problem, beardygnome
<charlie-tca> Thanks for trying to make it
<charlie-tca> I will put the minutes and log up shortly
<beardygnome> is the meeting over then?
<charlie-tca> yes, it is. Log is available at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/Xubuntu_2010-11-25
<beardygnome> thanks charlie
<charlie-tca> You are welcome
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-11-28
 * charlie-tca waves
<jussi> o/
<topyli> olaaa
 * charlie-tca would like to observe, if it is permitted
<tsimpson> anyone is welcome to participate (or observe)
<jussi> so, do we have nhandler or Pici?
<Pici> Greetings
<jussi> right, I can chair, just let me grab a drink
<Pici> poor jussi
<Pici> Needs to drink just to make it through one of our meetings..
<topyli> the chair is drunk!
<jussi> awesome
<IdleOne> heya
<jussi> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 12:04. The chair is jussi.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<jussi> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/IrcCouncil/MeetingAgenda
<jussi> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/IrcCouncil/MeetingAgenda
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/IrcCouncil/MeetingAgenda
<jussi> [topic] -offtopic 'support' discussion policy
<MootBot> New Topic:  -offtopic 'support' discussion policy
<jussi> Pici: your up.
<tonyyarusso> jussi: You're!
<ikonia> hello
<Pici> Thats me!
<jussi> meh :D
<IdleOne> lol tonyyarusso
<tonyyarusso> That's!
<Pici> Let me just type this up.
<Pici> Okay, This particular one has been bothering me for a bit.  I feel that we have a bit of a problem with either the definition or enforcement of the 'no supoort questions' in -offtopic rule.  Many of us use -offtopic as a place to relax when we're not doing support in #*ubuntu, and the support questions distract from that.  On the flip side, lots of questions aren't really apropriate for any #*ubuntu-* channel and people come ...
<Pici> ... to -ot to try to get them answered.
<Pici> Additionally, sometimes benign complaints from people about Ubuntu turn into support questions and often people don't want to move to #ubuntu to get them solved.
<Pici> Also!: Some people think that because we are willing to answer one simple question in -ot that it makes it okay to only ask there and not in any of the main support channels.
<ikonia> Pici: the ubuntu name space is MASSIVE there is a channel appropriate for almost any support question
<Pici> I don't know what we should or can do about this, but I think we should put something together besides the 'This is not a support channel' in the topic to make it clear to both users and operators what is allowed and what isn't/.
<ikonia> I don't see why ubuntu-offtopic should be used as a lazy option
<jussi> I don't have any problem with the occasional support question in -ot. just people shouldn't expect good answers.
<Pici> ikonia: Not everything is Ubuntu related.
<ikonia> Pici: then use the appropriate channel
<topyli> one other thing against -ot support is that it becomes backup for people who can't immediately get answers in #ubuntu, or worse, are banned
<ikonia> I have no issues with technical discussion/questions, but "I can't get skype to install" doesn't fit
<Tm_T> what topyli said
<ikonia> this is a very common situation in #kubuntu-offtopic also
<Pici> topyli: agreed.
<jussi> I think theres a difference between "anyone got any idea on such and such" in a conversational fashion,  and someone just coming because they are banned, lazy or otherwise.
<topyli> still it's a fine line
<Tm_T> ikonia: I'm ok for having more technical (and often non-kubuntu related) discussion and helping in kubuntu-offtopic
<ikonia> Tm_T: I'm not
<Pici> Theres a difference between technical discussion and support, but I agree that its a fine line in some cases.
<IdleOne> i think that any clearly ubuntu support related question should be directed to the proper channel. Just saying "this is NOT a support channel" and not offering the correct venue is rude.
<ikonia> Tm_T: I think discussion is great, but people are using it for support as #kubuntu can be quiet
<Tm_T> ikonia: ye, often it's better in support channel
<tonyyarusso> I don't mind when -ot regulars ask something because they happened to be thinking about it, but when people join to ask a support question that's not helpful.
<ikonia> Pici: common sense application, direct to correct channel if it's getting into a "my samba box won't authenticate" type of situation
<jussi> I really think this comes back to the "common sense" thing - ops need to guide the discussion where appropriate. Some, casual support shouldnt be an issue f we regulate too hard we will discourage people from coming at all.
<jussi> tonyyarusso: +1
<ikonia> jussi: if they are coming for support only, then they should'nt be there
<ikonia> but I agree, common sense and juding the state of the channel/discussion/question would be best
<ikonia> the only issue is it now opens the door for "you let $X talk about $Y - why not me"
<Pici> ikonia: Right, which is why I put this on the agenda.
<Pici> As much as I don't like having to codify every part of what we do, I think that in this case some sort of guidelines would be best.
<tonyyarusso> We don't necessarily need to be kicking people out for asking a support question, but something I often see is that person A asks the question, person B tells them it's not a support channel and directs them to the proper place to follow up with their issue, and then person C starts answering/discussing the question anyway - person C is where we need to change things, not person A.
<tonyyarusso> ie, explaining to those in the channel how we would like to deal with such things, and making sure everyone is clear and on board with our plan.
<Pici> Would it help if I put together an OfftopicSupportGuidelines page? Or is that too much?
<topyli> that would validate the concept of "support in -ot" :)
<jussi> Pici: I think an appropriate paragrapgh on the guidelines might be better
<IdleOne> least with a page like that everybody could be clear on what is what
<Pici> Okay, I'll write something up and we can discuss it next meeting or so.
<jussi> ok, great.
<Pici> jussi: Throw an [action] at me
<jussi> [ACTION] Pici to write a proposal
<MootBot> ACTION received:  Pici to write a proposal
<IdleOne> heh
<Pici> wee
<jussi> bleh
<IdleOne> vague any?
<jussi> backspace way too close to enter
<Pici> Well *I* know what I'm doing.
<topyli> "trust me"
<Pici> "Come with me if you want to live"
<jussi> [topic] Please provide an active wiki page displaying all pending items/actions and their current status and last updated date
<MootBot> New Topic:  Please provide an active wiki page displaying all pending items/actions and their current status and last updated date
<jussi> ikonia: youre up
<jussi> tonyyarusso: shush :P
<jussi> tonyyarusso: or do you really want the ' :P
<ikonia> I think this has been discussed before
<tonyyarusso> I'll jus't use extr'a to make u'p for it.
<ikonia> just needs an active/maintained wiki page showing what's being one by the council
<ikonia> partially already covered by the reproting process
<jussi> So did I. We have put more effor into the team report, and we aim to maintain that: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRCCouncil/TeamReports/
<topyli> we have discussed this in our smoke-filled cabinet too, and jussi has done someth...
<topyli> like so
<jussi> ikonia: shall we skip to the next one?
<ikonia> what was next sorry
<ikonia> ooh yes
<jussi> [topic] Ubuntu IRC name space over crowded and managed to different standards beyond that of the Ubuntu IRC principles.
<MootBot> New Topic:  Ubuntu IRC name space over crowded and managed to different standards beyond that of the Ubuntu IRC principles.
<ikonia> skip this one, I think it's covered
<ikonia> ah, this is painful, strap in
<jussi> is Seeker`here?
<IdleOne> doesn't appear to be
<jussi> right, moving on then.
<jussi> [topic] Ubuntu operator recruitment process a waste of time, impractical and not required
<MootBot> New Topic:  Ubuntu operator recruitment process a waste of time, impractical and not required
<ikonia> whoaaa
<ikonia> what happened to the name space overcrowed ?
<jussi> ikonia: you said skip it?
<topyli> i think anyone can volunteer to help us without formal proposals in meetings, btw
<ikonia> I meant the wiki page one , that had been discussed before and I think a solution is in progres
<ikonia> progress
<jussi> oh, letws go back then :)
<jussi> Sorry
<ikonia> no problem, IRC delay
<tonyyarusso> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/ChannelList for reference
<ikonia> bascially, the IRC name space for ubuntu is massive, and they all have different standards rules, (excluding locos) I think there needs to be some namespace rules which you HAVE to accept before you can open an #ubuntu- channel
<Pici> Such as?
<ikonia> language, COC, that sort of thing
<jussi> Well they do - they must be coc compliant
<IdleOne> they aren't always
<Pici> ikonia: Is there a particular channel that you're thinking of that doesn't meet those?
<ikonia> ok - so there needs to be a policy where people sign up their channel agreeing it as the owner
<ikonia> Pici: there are a few,
<IdleOne> some channels are a lot more slack about the language rule
<ikonia> other things like a minimum or 2 ops etc
<jussi> If you know some, please send us mail or ping us.
<ikonia> just a basic set of requirements
<ikonia> it's too easy to just start #ubuntu-$blah and do what you want
<jussi> ikonia: +1 on the 2 foundrs
<tonyyarusso> Elephant in the room example of language laxness:  -devel :P
<IdleOne> IRCC MUST be on the access list should be one also
<ikonia> IdleOne: tough as ircc are only responsible for core channels
<ikonia> jussi: I'll knockup up some base outlines if that's acceptable, nothing tough, just obvious stuff
<jussi> ikonia: no, we are responsible across the namespace - we are group contacts
<jussi> ikonia: that would be great
<ikonia> that way there is something written down to be judged on or held accountable to
<ikonia> thats fine, I'll sort that
<jussi> Pici: topyli tsimpson thoughts?
<tonyyarusso> Once Freenode implements their new Group Management System there will be a technical prevention in place to prevent opening of a new #ubuntu-* channel without approval, but we'll probably all be dead before that happens.
<Pici> We're only directly responsible for the operation of the core channels though.
<ikonia> topyli: willl you be my scribe for the wiki again (joking)
<topyli> ikonia: certainly, if you deliver such quality drafts :)
<jussi> Pici: to a point, if there is an issue with a non core channel, then its our issue.
<topyli> (like you did last time)
<jussi> right so.
<Pici> jussi: I agree. I wasn't disagreeing with your prior point.
<jussi> [action] ikonia to draft a set of basic guidelines for channel creation
<MootBot> ACTION received:  ikonia to draft a set of basic guidelines for channel creation
<tsimpson> so we're talking about https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/CreatingChannels? (which seems to be well hidden on the wiki)
<jussi> ikonia: may I suggest you use the current channel creation page as a base?
<tonyyarusso> I'm still a bit "concerned" that certain core channels still see themselves as a separate community rather than part of Ubuntu and want to maintain parallel control - we really ought to have a more binary status of being an Ubuntu core channel or not, rather than fuzzy "we're just not talking about this" statuses.
<topyli> tsimpson: that would seem an appropriate place for it
<ikonia> jussi: totally, the more thats there, the easier it is
<jussi> tonyyarusso: thats coming later, hold your horses :D
<tonyyarusso> Oh, okie doke :)
<ikonia> tonyyarusso: hang in, thats on the agenda
<jussi> ikonia: shall we move on?
<tonyyarusso> ah, I see it now.
<ikonia> sure
<jussi> right, so I topiced it already...
<jussi>  ikoniayou're turn again
<ikonia> which one is it, I missed the topic
<ikonia> (not got wiki open, on console)
<jussi> buntu operator recruitment process a waste of time, impractical and not required
<ikonia> ta
<ikonia> ok, so I personally feel the operator recruitment process is not a useful process and actually an attempt to pay lip service to have $something rather than actually apply it, I don't find it usable and I find the council members bypassing it when appropriate
<tonyyarusso> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/IrcTeam/OperatorRequirements
<ikonia> tonyyarusso: you're on fire
<jussi> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/IrcTeam/OperatorRequirements
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/IrcTeam/OperatorRequirements
<Pici> Stop drop and roll.
<IdleOne> Trust him if you want to live
<jussi> ikonia: could you explain some more?
<Pici> ikonia: Are you talking about #ubuntu+1 when you mean that the process has been bypassed?
<tonyyarusso> The actual requirements part is relatively straightforward, really.  Do you mean that, or the "application process"?
<ikonia> Pici: yes, that is an example of it
<ikonia> tonyyarusso: the application process
<ikonia> I don't find the advertising and application process useful for finding the best candidates (in my view) I don't find the testominals process on wiki pages useful,
<tonyyarusso> Agreed.  Steps 1 and 4 are the only ones I think we really need.
<ikonia> I just don't feel the actual application process where people who have not even visited the channel they are applying to be an op in as worth while
<ikonia> then having to sort through the applications is a waste
<ikonia> rather than approaching people who appear to make good ops when needed
<tonyyarusso> If you're actually fit for the job, you shouldn't need a wiki page or testimonial, since we should already know who you are and why you're qualified.
<ikonia> Pici: FYI: I approve of what you did with +1 but it bypassed the process that is now being made a meal of for #ubuntu-ops
<tsimpson> ikonia: we didn't just arbitrarily decide to bypass the process for +1, we decided and voted at a meeting
<tonyyarusso> I'd say basically apply on Launchpad to express interest, and then the Council can just skim the list looking for people they recognize as useful.
<topyli> ikonia: the thing is, we don't know everybody who might be a good op anymore. it probably worked well in 2005
<bilalakhtar> Sorry for coming right in between the meeting, but I would like something to be discussed. Its concerning the recent increase of spam on the ubuntu channels and elsewhere on freenode, and whether we should add a line to the #ubuntu topic on the fact that users should ignore spam. Please poke me when all agenda items are over and this could be discussed. Thanks!
<jussi> ikonia: tonyyarusso - the CC made the decision we needed to have an application process, However, perhaps we can make it better?
<topyli> ikonia: sorting the applications hasn't been that big a burden either
<ikonia> tsimpson: that doesn't make it acceptable, you have that process, when it was talked about for #ubuntu-ops it was pushed to the process, rather than common sense
<Pici> tonyyarusso: The problem is that we're not active 24 hours and we don't know everyone who contributes.
<IdleOne> topyli: ask the current ops to look over the IRCC picks for possible op?
<ikonia> jussi: I think there should be a process, don't disagree, I just think the other one is not appropriate or a good use of time
<IdleOne> get the current ops opinions and then make a final decision
<Pici> I'd be for letting the current ops be part of the voting process.
<tonyyarusso> jussi: I think it's useful to apply, rather than the IRCC just /query-ing people to say "hey, wanna op?" (that's how I started), but I don't know if it needs anything more than just applying.
<jussi> We already garner opinions from the current ops
<tonyyarusso> topyli has a point though.
<topyli> Pici: we do consult the current ops
<tsimpson> ikonia: it was also decided at a meeting that -ops should be a "normal" core channel as far as op process goes
<ikonia> tsimpson: but so is #ubuntu+1
<ikonia> and that wasn't treated as normal
<Pici> topyli: We only did that this time because I suggested it, its not even really part of the application process.
<tonyyarusso> While the IRCC won't know everyone who would make a good op, if we're doing our jobs well I would imagine SOMEBODY on the ops team should know something about any of the people who would be good, so perhaps the "solicit feedback" step is useful, but not the wiki page and whatnot.
<topyli> Pici: it should be :)
<tsimpson> ikonia: my point being: when we decided to depart from the process, it was a special decision, with a public vote at a meeting
<ikonia> tsimpson: yes, but the same was not done for #ubuntu-ops when people where crying out for people ASAP
<tonyyarusso> bilalakhtar: You can add it to the end of https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/IrcCouncil/MeetingAgenda  - if we don't get to it today I'd imagine we can roll it over to the next meeting's agenda.
<ikonia> it was put to the drawn out process and not vote of overiding it was called
<jussi> When the Ubuntu IRC Council notices the need to have more operators in a particular channel or channels, or to add another Core Operator, they will send an email to the ubuntu-irc mailing list. After this email is sent, there will be a one week period for any last minute applications and/or for applicants to finish updating their wiki pages. During this time Testimonials and concerns can be emailed direct to the Ubuntu IRC Council mailing list
<jussi> , or listed on the applicants wiki page.
<IdleOne> the wiki testimonials put me in a weird position this last round, I chose to not give any public testimonials because I did not want to hurt any feelings.
<ikonia> jussi: but you didn't to that
<ikonia> you started putting it in channel topics, advertising in ubuntu planet
<ikonia> it became a publicity show
<jussi> ikonia: we did!
<ikonia> jussi: yes,
<topyli> IdleOne: mailing irc-council@ works too, and it's private
<IdleOne> topyli: and that is what I did thanks to Pici's email asking for opinions
<ikonia> topyli: I don't believe that's valid
<ikonia> ops where chosen for channels they have never visited
<tonyyarusso> ikonia: I put it in the -ot topic actually.
<ikonia> tonyyarusso: yes, but it still happened
<ikonia> I don't care who did it
<ikonia> the process is documented
<Pici> ikonia: I don't believe  that happened.
<ikonia> Pici: we disagree on that
<ikonia> but that's not for this meeting
<tonyyarusso> jussi: I'm unclear how the wiki pages are useful at all.  I think just e-mailing the IRCC directly (and privately) with feedback on the full slate is probably appropriate.
<jussi> I dont have any issue with putting in the topic or planet or so - just because the process doesnt say we must do that it doesn mean we cant.
<ikonia> I'm just expressing that I feel the current process is not worthwhile and does not bring the best results
<ikonia> jussi: I do have an issue with it
<ikonia> jussi: the process requires you to be subscribed to the mailing list
<ikonia> that's where it should happen
<tonyyarusso> I also don't think the announcement is really useful.  If we're going to announce, we should do it loudly, but we'd probably be better off not doing so at all.
<jussi> ikonia: not everyone who can and should be an op is on the list
<Pici> I don't expect all of our helpers to be subscribed to the list.
<ikonia> if you want to be an op - you should be on the list to meet th erequirements
<ikonia> jussi: then they don't meet the requirements
<ikonia> really ?
<tonyyarusso> If someone's interested in the position, they should be actually interested enough to apply, not do it on a lark because we decided this week was the one where we were "seeking" people.
<ikonia> maybe leave that as an option for the council to think about an alternative process
<tonyyarusso> ikonia: The wording of the requirements does not clearly say that being subscribed to the list is a *prerequisite*, only that they must after accepting the position.
<ikonia> as I don't think you'll get a solution in this discussion
<topyli> ikonia: what's your suggestion then? we go back to nominating ops at will?
<ikonia> topyli: as and when needed, ask the team for opinions as the team are active in the channels they are in
<ikonia> at a high level
<ikonia> but I appreicate thats over simple
<Pici> How about we all think about this and return to the topic at another meeting?
<ikonia> Pici: thats my suggestion, it just in my view needs tweaking to be more usable,
<tonyyarusso> My proposal:  1) People "apply" on Launchpad continuously.  2) At certain times (perhaps on a predefined schedule) the IRCC compiles a list of those who have done so and forwards it to the ML.  3) Current ops send feedback to the IRCC on all names on that list.  4) Based on that feedback, the IRCC chooses new ops and announces them on the list.
<Pici> We don't need to come up with answers right now, but getting the brainstorming started is a good start.
<ikonia> Pici: exactly, I'm not expecting a solution now, just making my opinion that it's not working known
<IdleOne> I like tonyyarusso proposal
<jussi> tonyyarusso: thats pretty much what we do now, no?
<topyli> i like tonyyarusso's proposal too. it's the current process isn't it? :)
<IdleOne> no, not quite
<IdleOne> remove the wiki testimonials
<IdleOne> no need for them
<tonyyarusso> jussi: with like three extra steps, that unnecessariness being the issue, afaict.
<IdleOne> + ask current ops for opinions
<jussi> ikonia: thats in there
<jussi> IdleOne:
<jussi> sorry
<Pici> Its not clear.
<IdleOne> make it clear :)
<topyli> aye
<jussi> Ok, so we need to clarify whats written there, and perhaps remove the wiki page part?
<tonyyarusso> Sounds right.
<topyli> ok, sounds sane
<jussi> Imfine with that, shall we vote?
<ikonia> how about a sponsorship process ?
<ikonia> eg: get sponsorship from 2 existing ops
<ikonia> something like that
<IdleOne> going around asking people for a testimonial puts people in awkward position. I might like the person and feel they do an awesome job in the community but that does not mean I think they would be good op material
<tonyyarusso> ikonia: How would that have added value over soliciting opinions already?
<tonyyarusso> IdleOne: +1
<ikonia> tonyyarusso: because it stops random people just applying
<ikonia> tonyyarusso: if you can't find an op to sponsor you....there is something wrong
<ikonia> it's only a thought
<tsimpson> ikonia: I certainly don't think that should be a prerequisite
<tonyyarusso> ikonia: Who cares if random people apply?  Unless the list has like 100 people on it and becomes burdensome to compile, I don't see a problem.
<topyli> ikonia: we're not having a problem with "random people". if it becomes a problem, we can think
<charlie-tca> Isn't sponsorship the same as getting testamonials from other ops?
<IdleOne> me either, it invites begging for ops
<Pici> Yes.
<ikonia> fair enough
<jussi> [vote] clarify the process for op applications and remove the wiki page requirement
<MootBot> Please vote on:  clarify the process for op applications and remove the wiki page requirement.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<topyli> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from topyli. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<jussi> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from jussi. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<tsimpson> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from tsimpson. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<Pici> I'd prefer to see everything written up before voting....
<Pici> -1
<MootBot> -1 received from Pici. 3 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<tonyyarusso> Pici: I think we're voting on doing the writeup - approving the actual result will come next meeting.
<jussi> Pici: we need to approve it at the next meeting I suppose
<tsimpson> Pici: we are voting that it needs changing
<Pici> +1
<IdleOne> hehe
<Pici> fine bot, don't answer me.
<topyli> i wonder if that works :)
<Pici> Doesn't matter.
<jussi> [endvote]Â 
<ikonia> as long as you review it, I'm happy
<Pici> 13:53:29 <?MootBot> You have already voted on this topic.
<IdleOne> but you don't have quorum now according to the vote
<jussi> #endvote
<jussi> bots...
<tonyyarusso> hehe
 * topyli prods mooty-bot
<tonyyarusso> Logs overrule MootBot methinks.  :)
<tsimpson> IdleOne: 3 is a quorum
<IdleOne>  Count is now 2
<jussi> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 3 for, 1 against. 0 abstained. Total: 2
<jussi> lol
<IdleOne> but yeah +1 tonyyarusso
<tonyyarusso> Moveth on time?
<jussi> Im going to reword my proposal
<jussi> [topic]Â Creation of a #ubuntu-ops-backstage channel.
<MootBot> New Topic: Â Creation of a #ubuntu-ops-backstage channel.
<Pici> In the future, I don't think we need to vote on writing up a propsal, as anyone is free to write up a proposal for us.
<tonyyarusso> Great, now IRC has a secret snogging area.
<ikonia> I think we missed a topic
<IdleOne> I don't like the name of that channel
<tonyyarusso> yep
<jussi> I would like to propose we create a channel for backstage co-ordination. This would be open to all the people in -ops currently, and would be logged by a CC only logbot.
<topyli> oh yeah
<Pici> Indeed we did.
<jussi> name isnt important right now
<tonyyarusso> We can come back to it - mootbot is already confused enough ;)
<Pici> You skipped ikonia's other topic.
<jussi> ikonia: My apologies!!
<ikonia> no problem
<ikonia> we can go back to it
<Pici> And we only have 3 minutes left.
<ikonia> carry on
<ikonia> save it for later
<jussi> ok, this hsouldnt take too long
<tonyyarusso> co-ordination of what jussi?
<tonyyarusso> (Yay discussions we've had like 8 times!  :P)
<jussi> tonyyarusso: its a place where we can discus how to deal with people in real time, with more than one person. ie. what goes on in PM atm, but with more opinions present
<tonyyarusso> bother, when you put it sensibly like that I might actually agree with you.
<jussi> :)
<IdleOne> so, no non-op users would be allowed in?
<jussi> no
<jussi> oh
<jussi> yes
<jussi> (I missed the "no" :D
<Pici> what
<IdleOne> sorry I made that not clear. reread it myself a couple times
<tonyyarusso> If we did, I'd propose a channel name of #ubuntu-ops-discuss or similar, rather than -backstage, to remind us (and others) that it's for that purpose, not secret conniving whatnot.
<jussi> Invite only for those with +v in -ops
<jussi> tonyyarusso: yes, I agree
<IdleOne> all the conniving should be done in PM :P
<jussi> Does anyone have opinions on this? good? bad? indifferent?
<IdleOne> I like the idea.
<tonyyarusso> Mostly indifferent for me.  (I haven't done much of the situations that involve PMing lately.)
<Pici> I'm getting the itching feeling that people are going to calling us out for having a secret meeting place and that the op is just one big clique etc.
<IdleOne> provided the logs are not public but available to the ops and the IRCC, CC
<Pici> And thats where we go to make fun of users.  Which will happen, like it or not.
<jussi> Pici: However, wth the CC to point to for complaints like that.
<Pici> jussi: Who is going to complain?
<topyli> well nalioth had a good logging proposal in https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-irc/2010-November/001148.html
<tonyyarusso> Meh, we make fun of each other WAY more than users :)
<jussi> topyli: +1
<topyli> tonyyarusso: and we prefer to use a publicly logged channel for that anyway!
<tonyyarusso> indeed!
<Pici> topyli: That appears to be Hobbsee, not nalioth.
<jussi> Shall we vote then?
<topyli> yeah, way to look at what i'm linking to
<IdleOne> I still would like the logs available to ops
<IdleOne> not just the CC
<ikonia> I think this needs to go back to the list
<jussi> IdleOne: I think we can sort that.
<topyli> IdleOne: you're free to log any channels you're in :)
<ikonia> I think you need more input to do this
<IdleOne> topyli: what about when my client is offline?
<Pici> ikonia: I'm inclined to agree with that.
<jussi> ikonia: we had a fair discussion on the list already
<ikonia> jussi: I don't think we did
<topyli> oh yeah, there are clients like that. i don't mind having that, yeah
<ikonia> jussi: there was a short burst and it went quiet
<ikonia> jussi: I think you need to say, I am going to do this, not "what do you think"
<IdleOne> topyli: there are still a few ops who go offline :)
<tonyyarusso> IdleOne: Client....offline?
<tonyyarusso> :P
<Pici> We had a discussion about your whole #ubuntu-ops-international-collab channel, not one for just this idea.
<tsimpson> ikonia: but he wasn't saying that he was going to do that, rather discussing if it should be done
<Pici> Also, I think we need to make it clear that some discussions still belong in -ops. I don't like the idea of everything happening behind closed doors.
<ikonia> tsimpson: but you are now about to vote on it
<IdleOne> it should be more of a help channel for ops. maybe use #ubuntu-irc-helpers
<tsimpson> ikonia: exactly, so we haven't yet decided
<jussi> Right, seems we should take this to the list.
<ikonia> I don't think there is enough input of this meeting to agree to do it
<jussi> [agreed] Take this proposal to the list
<MootBot> AGREED received:  Take this proposal to the list
<Pici> yay for vaugeness again
<jussi> [topic] Ubuntu IRC Council not responsible for all core channels
<MootBot> New Topic:  Ubuntu IRC Council not responsible for all core channels
<jussi> ikonia: you're turn
<Pici> How long is this meeting supposed to run?
<Pici> We're already 1:10 in.
<IdleOne> wait
<IdleOne> need less vague
<ikonia> jussi: next meeting I think, ot of time
<ikonia> out
<jussi> Im fine to stick around
<ikonia> is that allowed ? and how are the others fixed ?
<jussi> but If others arent, no issues
<topyli> i have a few minutes in me still if needed
<jussi> topyli: tsimpson Pici?
<Pici> jussi: I can stick around too.
<tsimpson> well, I'm a bit ill, so I'd rather not stay too long
<jussi> Ok, lets leave it for next time.
<ikonia> tsimpson: it can wait, the world won't end
<Pici> Hopefully.
<IdleOne> nice knowing you if it does
<jussi> If it does, then its not an issue :D
<Pici> Yay.
<topyli> hah
<jussi> ok, any urgent business?
<tonyyarusso> How to keep IRC support running smoothly during the upcoming apocalypse?
<jussi> ha
<jussi> Â£endmeeting
<IdleOne> tonyyarusso: you're on your own
<jussi> #endmeeting
<IdleOne> :P
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 13:13.
<topyli> i checked the bug list, there's the ancient busy-#ubuntu issue and the other one which is still in the middle of discussion
<IdleOne> good meeting, no name calling and no feeling like nothing got done (least for me)
<Pici> IdleOne: I'll make a note to call people names next time, sorry.
<IdleOne> good. I felt a little left out to be honest
<topyli> alright, thanks everybody
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-11-21
<glitchd_> anybody in here have teamspeak by chance?
<tumbleweed> cody-somerville: dmb meeting?
<tumbleweed> suppose I should ping everyone else, as I seem to be the only one who remembered...
<tumbleweed> !dmb-ping
<ubottu> bdrung, cody-somerville, persia, Laney, micahg, geser, tumbleweed, stgraber: DMB ping
<Laney> woah
<Laney> oh, I did that, thought it was some bot wizardry
<tumbleweed> heh
 * micahg waves
<tumbleweed> hrm, jbicha isn't online
 * stgraber waves
<tumbleweed> Laney: if cody-somerville doesn't turn up, I guess you are chair
<Laney> i am not here enough to be able to drive i'm afraid
<Laney> swap with whoever is next for next time?
<tumbleweed> you :P
<tumbleweed> micahg, after that
 * micahg is barely awake ATM...
<Laney> heh
<stgraber> do we actually have anything to discuss with jbicha missing?
<stgraber> I don't see any applicant or topics on the agenda that's not blocking on cody-somerville or jbicha
<tumbleweed> there are also leftovers from the UDS discussion that never made it to our agenda (I guess they fell under cody)
<Laney> i need to write down the package set process
<Laney> micahg: are you still ok to ping the existing uploaders to get descriptions?
<Laney> otherwise, don't see anything
<Laney> we should ping jbicha to make sure he comes to the next one
<tumbleweed> yeah
<micahg> laney: yes
<Laney> rock
<micahg> sorry, will try to have that done for next time
<Laney> np
<Laney> wasn't finalised until recently anyway
<tumbleweed> we discussed setting up a private IRC channel, at UDS (amongst other things) but the UDS discussion never made its way into our agenda
<Laney> yeah we failed there
 * tumbleweed can't even find discussion logs. Was the session unscheduled?
<Laney> but we can easily try that if people think it might be useful
<tumbleweed> cody was pretty convinced it would be, and sounded like the main driver for it
<Laney> want to JFDI?
<Laney> as in: I am updating the agenda â can I give it to you? :-)
<Laney> silence. is. assent.
<tumbleweed> heh, sure
<Laney> updated
<Laney> cheers all
<micahg> are we done here?
 * tumbleweed assumes so
<tumbleweed> micahg: are you still tidying up team ownership?
<micahg> ATM no, as a task, sure :)
<micahg> oh, wait, yes, I keep trying, will have to poke harder :)
 * bdrung waves.
<bdrung> i forget that we already have winter time (utc+1 instead of utc+2)
<ara> hello!
<jedimike> hello!
<roadmr> hy!
<ara> OK, let's get started :)
<ara> #startmeeting
<brendand> hi
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Nov 21 16:01:36 2011 UTC.  The chair is ara. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<ara> Welcome to the UF Squad meeting
<ara> The agenda today looks like:
<ara> Do we want virtual machines to be able to submit to Ubuntu Friendly? (roadmr) - UF runs done on virtual machines aren't submitted to Launchpad, getting this to work would require some effort, we'd like to gauge community interest in this to determine if it's worth pursuing.
<ara> Biweekly meetings - ara
<ara> AOB - all
<ara> As usual, type ".." when you've finished talking
<ara> #topic Do we want virtual machines to be able to submit to Ubuntu Friendly? (roadmr)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Do we want virtual machines to be able to submit to Ubuntu Friendly? (roadmr)
<ara> roadmr, all yours :)
<roadmr> thanks!
<roadmr> Last week we found out that UF runs done on virtual machines aren't submitted to Launchpad. This was verified on VirtualBox, and would have to be checked also for Xen, VMWare and KVM.
<roadmr> The issue comes from the weird DMI information returned from virtual machines which means that checkbox is unable to generate a system_id, which in turn prevents submission to Launchpad.
<roadmr> The question here is whether there is interest in having Ubuntu Friendly submissions from virtual machines. This depends on how likely are community members to want to test and submit a virtual machine.
<ara> o/
<roadmr> If there is no interest, then perhaps the work needed to get this working is not worthwhile, but if it's something that people will want, maybe it'd be interesting to do.
<roadmr> ..
<roadmr> ara, go
<ara> I think the main interest of UF is to see how Ubuntu works on real hardware. I don't see the value on having a lot of submissions from virtual machines
<ara> ..
<roadmr> o/
<ara> roadmr, go :)
<brendand> o/
<cr3> o/
<roadmr> heheh :) so there's already a bug about this problem, one thing to do would be to mark it Won't Fix and point people who ask to that bug, and if someone ever comes up with a rationale as to why we should be testing VMs, we can revisit the decision
<roadmr> ..
<ara> brendand, your turn
<brendand> i don't think we should mark the bug 'won't fix', since it is a bug. but we shouldn't prioritise it. i don't think VMs are in scope for testing with Ubuntu Friendly
<brendand> ...
<ara> cr3, your turn now
<cr3> it should be possible to submit test results from virtual machines, even though it might not make sense to have them appear in UF
<cr3> how this gets communicated to the user actually running the tests, so that they're not disappointed when their virtual machines does not appear in UF, I don't know
<cr3> ..
<ara> OK, so I guess the bug is valid, but not high priority :)
<ara> we have to make sure that once we fix it, we change uf as well so they don't appear in uf
<cr3> ara: agreed, in other words, it shouldn't be a "validation" error to submit from a virtual machine :)
<ara> shall we vote? or we agree?
<cr3> anyone disagree?
<roadmr> so we're agreeing that the bug should be fixed at some point, correct?
<cr3> roadmr: correct
<roadmr> ok then, /me agrees :)
<ara> roadmr, but that we need to avoid to show those submissions in UF
<cr3> +1
<ara> #action roadmr to update the bug with the correct importance and a nice comment to let people know
<meetingology> ACTION: roadmr to update the bug with the correct importance and a nice comment to let people know
<ara> cool!
<ara> OK, moving on
<ara> #topic Biweekly meetings - ara
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Biweekly meetings - ara
<jedimike> o/
<ara> OK, so nobody outside the people who attended the meeting replied to the email in the ML
<ara> jedimike, go ahead
<jedimike> personally, i think it's better two have a lively biweekly meeting than a quiet weekly meeting
<jedimike> just because if the meetings are quiet, as they are at the moment, they could be considered missable
<jedimike> ...
<brendand> o/
<ara> brendand, your turn
<brendand> i think we should try it once at least
<roadmr> o/
<ara> brendand, done?
<brendand> we should also start thinking about why people don't feel the meetings are worth participating in
<brendand> ...
<ara> roadmr, go ahead
<cr3> o/
<roadmr> biweekly meetings are a bit harder to keep track of, so we should be careful to announce them in the mailing list - not everyone will have a calendar reminder set up so we should do that for the participants :)
<roadmr> ..
<ara> cr3, your turn!
<cr3> I liked roadmr's argument sent to the mailing list but I also like jedimike's. however, I'm not convinced that making the meeting biweekly will necessarily make the discussions more lively
<cr3> the reason is that having it biweekly may put the project out of mind and therefore might even result in less lively meeting
<cr3> I don't know, tough decision
<cr3> ..
<cr3> how about we try every 1.5 weeks? :)
<ara> hehehe
<ara> or following the fibonacci series by week number
<cr3> +1
<ara> The only thing important is to make sure that any decisions about the project are still made in the open
<cr3> o/
<ara> on the ML or the meetings
<ara> cr3, go ahead
<cr3> ara: good point, having to wait a couple weeks in order to make a decision in the open might not be ideal
<cr3> ..
<roadmr> o/
<ara> roadmr, go ahead
<roadmr> I think relying on the ML a bit more for decision making is good, that way information comes to people
<roadmr> as opposed to IRC where they have to come to the information - a bit more effort for everyone involved
<roadmr> even though the ML is a bit slower...
<roadmr> that may help in showing that decisions are open to the community
<roadmr> and hopefully encourage more participation
<cr3> +1
<roadmr> and while I still think weekly meetings are less prone to losing momentum,
<roadmr> maybe going biweekly is a good opportunity to prepare more interesting agendas,
<roadmr> which will engage the community a bit more.
<roadmr> ..
<ara> what about keeping weekly and cancelling the meeting if there are no topics to discuss?
<cr3> ara: +1
 * cr3 is in an agreeing mood today
<brendand> o/
<ara> brendand, go ahead
<brendand> we usually have at least *one* topic to discuss. the problem is that it's *only* one or two and maybe the topic(s) aren't that interesting to a wider audience
<ara> o/
<brendand> and if we hold up having a meeting until we have a 'good' agenda then the scheduling could end up quite random
<brendand> which is annoying as someone participating externally
<brendand> speaking from personal experience
<cr3> o/
<brendand> ...
<ara> I think that if we have one topic, then we need to still have the meeting. If someone put it in the agenda is because it interest them :)
<ara> ..
<ara> cr3, go ahead
<cr3> even if there's one agenda item, I would still hold a meeting because it might inspire other items for the next meeting.
<cr3> ..
<brendand> o/
<ara> brendand, go ahead
<brendand> i agree with that angle if the topic in question is proposed by the community
<ara> but who are the community? because I am community :)
<cr3> me too! I quit canonical for an hour just to attend these meetings :)
<brendand> i'm also the community
<brendand> let's say, outside of the meeting organizers
<ara> but why? I don't understand the difference
<ara> OK, so the options are:
<ara> 1) Keep the weekly meeting, and cancel the meeting if there are no topics at all
<ara> 2) Keep the weekly meeting, and cancel the meeting if there are no topics from people outside the meeting organizers (?)
<ara> 3) Move to a biweekly meeting
<ara> Any other options?
<cr3> shall we vote?
 * ara wonders if you can give options to the voting system...
<ara> #vote meeting options
<meetingology> Please vote on: meeting options
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<ara> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: meeting options
<meetingology> Votes for:0 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Deadlock, casting vote may be used
<ara> it does not look like
<ara> #vote Option 1 on the cadence
<meetingology> Please vote on: Option 1 on the cadence
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<ara> (this is for those that want option 1)
<cr3> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from cr3
<ara> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from ara
<roadmr> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from roadmr
<ara> (vote 0 if it is not your chosen option, please)
<brendand> 0
<meetingology> 0 received from brendand
<ara> jedimike, ?
<jedimike> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from jedimike
<ara> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Option 1 on the cadence
<meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:1
<meetingology> Motion carried
<ara> OK, I think we don't need to vote the rest of the options, unless anyone says we should
<ara> #agree Meetings to be kept on a weekly cadence. The meeting would be cancel if no topics are on the agenda
<ara> mmm, it didn't seem to work :)
<ara> anyway
<ara> Anything else on this topic?
<ara> OK, let's move on
<ara> #topic Any Other Business?
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Any Other Business?
<ara> Anyone?
<jedimike> not me
 * roadmr got nothing else :(
<ara> OK, let's wrap up then
<cr3> ditto
<ara> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Nov 21 16:41:55 2011 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-11-21-16.01.moin.txt
<ara> cool!
<ara> thanks all!
<roadmr> thanks :)
<brendand> thanks
<jdstrand> hi!
<tyhicks> Hello
<micahg> o/
<jjohansen> \o
<jdstrand> ok, let's get started
<jdstrand> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Nov 21 18:02:33 2011 UTC.  The chair is jdstrand. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<jdstrand> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<jdstrand> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Announcements
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Announcements
<jdstrand> Short week for a lot of the team as Thursday is a national holiday for US employees and a lot of people are taking Friday off
<jdstrand> mdeslaur, sbeattie, micahg, tyhicks, jjohansen: thank you for spending time getting your blueprints in order. I think everything is looking good on that front, especially when considering our commitment to essential work items (and best effort for high and lower).
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<jdstrand> I'll go first
<jdstrand> I'm one of the ones with a short week (off thu and fri)
<jdstrand> I'm on community this week
<jdstrand> I've got one pending update that I hope to push this week: kdeutils. It involves quite a bit of testing, but I hope to push it out today, tomorrow at the latest
<jdstrand> I've also got a few MIR audits
<jdstrand> if I have any time, I hope to gather up some statistics on proactive and reactive work
<jdstrand> I want to be able to look at all the time estimates we gave in the work items and look at if people have too much dev work, etc
<jdstrand> hopefully, going forward I can have some processes that will better predict things such that at the next UDS we can continue to improve our planning
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: you're up
<mdeslaur> I'm currently pushing out a software-center update
<mdeslaur> and I have a pidgin update to test and push
<mdeslaur> and then I'll continue going down the list
<mdeslaur> I'm in the happy place this week
<mdeslaur> and I won't be eating turkey on thursday
<mdeslaur> so I'll hold down the fort
<mdeslaur> that,s it from me
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: thanks! :)
<mdeslaur> sbeattie: you're up
<sbeattie> I'm also happy placing this week
<sbeattie> and have a short-week planned
<sbeattie> I'm working on a glibc update and monitoring for openjdk regressions from last week
<sbeattie> I'm also exploring cgroups
<sbeattie> I think that's it for me
<sbeattie> micahg: tag
<micahg> so, I think I have a full week this week and will also not be having Turkey on Thursday :)
<micahg> so, unfortunately, last week ended up being a very short week for me, so I'm still trying to get the Mozilla updates out, after that I have chromium and a few other updates related to DigiCert
<micahg> that's it for me
<micahg> tyhicks: you're it
<tyhicks> First off, I will be eating turkey on Thursday... lots of it :)
<mdeslaur> \o/
<tyhicks> I'll also be taking half a day off on Wednesday and Friday
<tyhicks> I'm in the triage role this week
<tyhicks> So I should still have plenty of time to get that role covered all week
<tyhicks> Outside of that, I am going to move on to a libt1 update
<tyhicks> and I intend to start the SRU process for a couple eCryptfs kernel patches for Oneiric
<mdeslaur> tyhicks: after all that tryptophan, it's good that you're taking friday off :)
<tyhicks> mdeslaur: Yes - I probably won't wake up until noon, anways :)
<tyhicks> That's it for me - you're up jjohansen
<jjohansen> thanks
<jjohansen> well, yet again another short week here.
<jjohansen> beside the regular kernel USN work,  I need to fix bug893232, that was discovered last week during testing, and continue getting the apparmor permission rework pushed through and the base of stacking
<jjohansen> Also I need to release AppArmor 2.7 final some time this week
<jjohansen> hrmm, I think that is it from me
<jdstrand> thanks guys
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
<jdstrand> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.
<jdstrand> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/bip.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/gnucash.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/conky.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/unbound.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/ardour.html
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
<jdstrand> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
<jdstrand> alrighty then
<jdstrand> mdeslaur, sbeattie, micahg, tyhicks, jjohansen: thanks!
<jdstrand> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Nov 21 18:23:02 2011 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-11-21-18.02.moin.txt
<mdeslaur> thanks jdstrand!
<jjohansen> thanks jdstrand
<micahg> thanks jdstrand
<tyhicks> Thanks jdstrand
<sbeattie> jdstrand: thanks!
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-11-22
<bob__> can I use gnome desktop with 11.10?
<VY1CA> Hello.
<zul> hi
<jamespage> o/
<Daviey> o/
 * jamespage looks for last weeks meeting minutes
<Daviey> Ursinha: You aren't back online yet, right?
<smoser> o/
<smb> \o
<Daviey> jamespage: I'm not sure we did have much of a carryover, just 1 thing
<jamespage> lets get started
<jamespage> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Nov 22 16:01:27 2011 UTC.  The chair is jamespage. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<jamespage> #topic Review ACTION points from previous meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<jamespage> looking at last weeks minutes - http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-11-15-16.12.moin.txt
<jamespage> no actions!
<jamespage> #topic Precise Development
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Precise Development
<Daviey> ACTION: smb, jamespage, hggdh to work on triaging bug #790712 (carry over)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 790712 in linux (Ubuntu Precise) "20110531 i386 server ISO: order 5 allocation failure during install" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/790712
<jono> hey akk
<jono> oops
<jamespage> Daviey: you are one week to old
<smb> hm didn we close it?
<Daviey> jamespage: that is on the Agenda, and carried over.
<Daviey> jono: Welcome the meeting!
<jamespage> that was closed out last week - I remember (and can see in the log)
<Daviey> ah, ok
<jono> Daviey, thanks, but we had a meeting scheduled here
<jono> I can move it though
<Daviey> jono: o-rly?
<hggdh> Daviey:  bug 790712 has been closed already (and reported about last meeting, BTW)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 790712 in linux (Ubuntu Precise) "20110531 i386 server ISO: order 5 allocation failure during install" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/790712
<jono> Daviey, yeah, no worries
 * jamespage passes the baton to Daviey for 'Precise Development'
<Daviey> Blueprints are looking pretty good
<Daviey> Infact, some are GREAT
<Daviey> some need a tiny bit more love
<Daviey> Feature Freeze is this Thursday
<Daviey> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FeatureFreeze
<Daviey> lets crack through, http://status.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ubuntu-server/release-bugs.html
<Daviey> bug 883988
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 883988 in glance (Ubuntu Precise) "package glance 2011.3-0ubuntu4 failed to install/upgrade: ErrorMessage: subprocess installed post-installation script returned error exit status 1" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/883988
<Daviey> That was in regards to upgrade bad handling
<Daviey> zul: Happen to know if that is being resolved upstream?
<zul> checking
<Daviey> db migration failure in glance, not handled as well as in nova
<zul> no it isnt
<Daviey> zul: can you take that to dig deeper?
<zul> yep
<Daviey> bug 888124
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 888124 in excalibur-logkit (Ubuntu) "excalibur-logkit version 2.0-8 failed to build with openjdk-7" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/888124
 * jamespage takes that one
<Daviey> jamespage: ^?
<Daviey> great :)
<Daviey> bug 881903
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 881903 in lxc (Ubuntu) "lxc-fedora template is broken" [Medium,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/881903
<Daviey> hallyn: blocked on new upstream version, right?
<hallyn> yeah
<jamespage> Daviey: are you just going to assign these bugs as we discuss or do I need to action?
<Daviey> jamespage: action is overkill i think
<Daviey> bug 888671
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 888671 in facter (Ubuntu) "Please merge facter 1.6.2 (main) from Debian testing (main)" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/888671
<Daviey> I think that just needs uploading
<Daviey> bug 607039
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 607039 in nfs-utils (Ubuntu) "NFS4 automount using replicated servers doesn't work" [Medium,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/607039
<Daviey> Anyone fancy looking into that?
<smb> I have been playing with that as well. hallyn, if you got a spare minute or two after the meeting
<smb> but hallyn has been at that, too
<hallyn> smb, sure.
<Daviey> roaksoax: bug 891950 ?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 891950 in orchestra (Ubuntu) "Configuration in /etc/orchestra/import_isos unused" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/891950
<Daviey> roaksoax: around?
<roaksoax> Daviey: gonna work on it this week
 * Daviey preps more bugs to assign to him.
<Daviey> Great!
<Daviey> bug 889644
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 889644 in openmpi (Ubuntu) "Please update OpenMPI to the 1.5 upstream version" [Wishlist,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/889644
<Daviey> I think this is for Robie, but he is afk this week
<Daviey> bug 887186
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 887186 in orchestra (Ubuntu) "squid proxy big and small buckets not functioning correctly" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/887186
<Daviey> oh dear
 * Daviey digs after meeting
<roaksoax> well now squid config in oneiric and precise are different
<roaksoax> so I'm not sure how will that affect that bug report
<zul> ill take the openmpi one
<Daviey> zul: I think Robie was investigating already
<Daviey> bug 858878
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 858878 in cobbler (Ubuntu Precise) "lack of csrf protection in cobbler-web" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/858878
<zul> Daviey: k
<Daviey> pending SRU aiui
<Daviey> bug 801494
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 801494 in Ubuntu Precise "Multi part LVM layout: system fails to boot due to missing volumes" [High,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/801494
<Daviey> jamespage: Is that Fixed now?
<jamespage> Daviey: unable to reproduce - I'll close it
<Daviey> rocking
<Daviey> adam_g: bug 862558 ?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 862558 in cobbler-enlist (Ubuntu Precise) "cobbler-enlist is not checking for return codes enough" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/862558
<adam_g> Daviey: this week now that the other branch is merged. im working on the avahi discovery at the moment, perhaps in the same changeset
<Daviey> rocking
<VY1CA> Hello.  I think I'm in the wrong meeting.
<Daviey> zul: bug 871278 , fixed?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 871278 in nova (Ubuntu Precise) "Cannot attach volumes to instances if tgt is used" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/871278
<zul> Daviey: still being reviewed
<zul> ill prod it along
<Daviey> k
<Daviey> bug 875262, kooolhead is working on
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 875262 in php5 (Ubuntu Oneiric) "PHP Startup: Unable to load dynamic library '/usr/lib/php5/20090626+lfs/sqlite.so'" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/875262
<Daviey> I think he needs some support.
<Daviey> I've started, so i should probably finish.
<Daviey> bug 887410
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 887410 in apache2 (Ubuntu Precise) "plymouth ask-for-passphrase" [Medium,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/887410
<Daviey> Wait for Clint to join us.
<Daviey> bug 891433
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 891433 in squid3 (Ubuntu) "squid3 miss_access bug, fix not included in LTS" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/891433
<Daviey> seems to be a bitesize bug... anyone looking to get into development want to snap it up?
<zul> they might as well merge squid3 as well
<Daviey> zul: good idea.. :)
<Daviey> we'll hold that one open
<Daviey> bug 893189, smoser - any news (i know you haven't had it assigned long!)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 893189 in cobbler (Ubuntu) "avahi advertisement support disabled" [Medium,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/893189
<utlemming> Daviey: I can do that
<Daviey> utlemming: rocking!
<utlemming> The squid one
<smoser> no news.
<smoser> i will try to get ot it tomororw.
<Daviey> smoser: thanks
<Daviey> smoser: roaksoax or adam_g, forget who - suggested that another way of fixing that
<Daviey> next
<Daviey> bug 876768
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 876768 in Ubuntu "[needs-packaging] netcf" [Wishlist,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/876768
<Daviey> hallyn: How is it going?
<hallyn> I think I'm done addressing ahs3's feedback
<Daviey> hallyn: Great!  So we should get it in Ubuntu soonly!
<hallyn> I don't know what the next step is, but trust ahs3 will let me know when he has time to help me with it
<Daviey> superb
<hallyn> i have no idea how long it takes from here on in debian
<Daviey> bug 893365
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 893365 in ec2-api-tools (Ubuntu) "Upgrade to EC2 API version 2011-11-01" [Wishlist,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/893365
<Daviey> hallyn: fast
<Daviey> zul: ^^ :) ?
<hallyn> yay
<zul> i thought that would have been smoser
<zul> but yeah i can do it
<Daviey> bug 891977, i've started - need to do some cleaning up.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 891977 in cobbler (Ubuntu) "cobbler-web package still contain traces of Ubuntu branding" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/891977
<smoser> i can upgrade those tools.
<Daviey> roaksoax: bug 892001 ?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 892001 in cobbler (Ubuntu) "debian/copyright not lintian clean" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/892001
<roaksoax> Daviey: just assigned it to me
<Daviey> great!
<Daviey> Okay, any other bugs identified or in progress?
<adam_g> bug 893313
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 893313 in squid-deb-proxy (Ubuntu) "squid-deb-proxy 0.6 fails to install on precise" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/893313
<Daviey> oh dear
<adam_g> should be fixed today, but anything squid related we should really check
<adam_g> to make sure upgrade to squid3 is okay
<Daviey> right
<Daviey> thanks adam_g
<Daviey> Any others?
<zul> has anyone tested the new cobbler yet?
<Daviey> yes
<zul> k
<Daviey> roaksoax fixed one of my woes i think
<jamespage> all done?
<Daviey> jamespage: move on?
<Daviey> cool
<jamespage> #topic Ubuntu Server Team Events
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Server Team Events
<jamespage> so anyone doing anything interesting event wise between now and xmas?
<zul> getting drunk on eggnog?
<jamespage> not sure that counts :-)
<jamespage> OK
<smb> it's... interesting
<jamespage> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
<jamespage> hggdh: over to you
<jamespage> hmm - or maybe not
<jamespage> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
<smb> Nothing I have to bring up. Open to questions, if any...
<jamespage> any questions for smb?
 * smb assumes none
<jamespage> (I'm sure smoser has one - he normally does)
<Daviey> smb: things look good!
<jamespage> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions regarding Ubuntu ARM Server (NCommander)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly Updates & Questions regarding Ubuntu ARM Server (NCommander)
<smoser> i dont htink so. smb gets off easy
<smb> \o/
<smoser> oh, i did want to point out, precise boots everywhere !
<NCommander> Not too much to say, arm server blueprints are drafted
<NCommander> We're mostly in a holding cycle until hardware becomes available
<smoser> (worked around bug 881076 atm)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 881076 in linux (Ubuntu) "precise kernels do not boot on ec2 without idle=halt" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/881076
<NCommander> */end*
<NCommander> er
<NCommander> Actually, armhf bootstrap is im progress
<NCommander> *in
<jamespage> any questions for NCommander?
<NCommander> which will bring up to 20% gains in performance on all workloads on ARM due to the streamlined ABI
<jamespage> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions from the Ubuntu Community
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly Updates & Questions from the Ubuntu Community
<Daviey> Form a queue.
<jamespage> no?
<jamespage> OK - moving on to
<jamespage> #topic Open Discussion
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Open Discussion
<jamespage> (unless hggdh is around?)
<jamespage> nope?  anything from anyone else for Open Discussion?
<Daviey> Nothing here!
<hggdh> jamespage: yes?
 * hggdh is back
<jamespage> hey hggdh - you missed your Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team slot!
<hggdh> oh, sorry.
<jamespage> np
<jamespage> anything to report on the QA front?
<hggdh> But no news right now, still finding about the new and improved QA lab
<jamespage> right
<jamespage> OK
<jamespage> #topic Announce next meeting date and time
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Announce next meeting date and time
<jamespage> Next tuesday (29th November) at 1600 UTC
<jamespage> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Nov 22 16:35:15 2011 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-11-22-16.01.moin.txt
<Daviey> Thanks jamespage
<ppisati> o/
<ogasawara> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Nov 22 17:00:31 2011 UTC.  The chair is ogasawara. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<smb> \o
<ogasawara> ##
<ogasawara> ## This is the Ubuntu Kernel Team weekly status meeting.
<ogasawara> ##
<ogasawara> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<ogasawara> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Precise
<ogasawara> # Meeting Etiquette
<ogasawara> #
<ogasawara> # NOTE: '..' indicates that you are finished with your input.
<ogasawara> #       'o/' indicates you have something to add (please wait until you are recognized)
<ogasawara> [TOPIC] ARM Status (ppisati)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: ARM Status (ppisati)
<ppisati> Precise/omap4: first kernel upload done (3.0.0-1401.2) - still based on Oneiric source code but the configuration has been synced with master.
<ppisati> Misc: besides the usual SRU kernels, there's nothing else to report.
<ppisati> ..
<ogasawara> [TOPIC] Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (ogasawara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/kt-meeting.txt
<ogasawara> ==== precise nominated bugs ====
<ogasawara>  * 32 linux kernel bugs (up 12)
<ogasawara> ==== Ubuntu precise-alpha-1 bugs ====
<ogasawara>  * 1 linux kernel bugs (up 1)
<ogasawara> ==== <series>-updates bugs ====
<ogasawara>  * 0 precise linux kernel bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara>  * 10 oneiric linux kernel bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara>  * 10 natty linux kernel bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara>  * 3 maverick linux kernel bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara>  * 7 lucid linux kernel bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara>  * 0 hardy linux kernel bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara> === Incoming Bugs ===
<ogasawara>  * 8 precise bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara>  * 635 oneiric bugs (down 5)
<ogasawara>  * 1677 natty bugs (down 3)
<ogasawara>  * 1099 maverick bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara>  * 979 lucid bugs (down 4)
<ogasawara>  * 43 hardy bugs (down 3)
<ogasawara> === Regressions ===
<ogasawara> ==== regression-update bugs ====
<ogasawara>  * 0 precise bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara>  * 7 oneiric bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara>  * 19 natty bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara>  * 40 maverick bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara>  * 76 lucid bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara>  * 0 hardy bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara> ==== regression-release bugs ====
<ogasawara>  * 1 precise bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara>  * 61 oneiric bugs (up 6)
<ogasawara>  * 434 natty bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara>  * 236 maverick bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara>  * 208 lucid bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara>  * 2 hardy bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara> ==== regression-proposed bugs ====
<ogasawara>  * 0 precise bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara>  * 1 oneiric bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara>  * 4 natty bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara>  * 0 maverick bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara>  * 2 lucid bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara>  * 0 hardy bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara> ..
<ogasawara> [TOPIC] Milestone Targeted Work Items (ogasawara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Milestone Targeted Work Items (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> [LINK] http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-precise/canonical-kernel-team-precise-alpha-1.html
<ogasawara> || apw       || hardware-p-kernel-boot                || 3 work items ||
<ogasawara> ||           || hardware-p-kernel-delta-review        || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> ||           || foundations-p-ipv6                    || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> ||           || desktop-o-xorg-stakeholders-request   || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> || cking     || hardware-p-kernel-version-and-flavors || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> ||           || hardware-p-kernel-delta-review        || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> || ogasawara || hardware-p-kernel-version-and-flavors || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> ||           || hardware-p-kernel-delta-review        || 2 work items ||
<ogasawara> || sforshee  || hardware-p-kernel-delta-review        || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> || smb       || hardware-p-kernel-delta-review        || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> || tgardner  || hardware-p-kernel-version-and-flavors || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> ||           || hardware-p-kernel-delta-review        || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> If your name is in the above table, please review your Alpha-1 work items and either get them closed or push them out to the next milestone.  Remember, Alpha-1 is Thurs Dec 1.
<ogasawara> ..
<ogasawara> [TOPIC] Status: Precise Development Kernel (ogasawara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Precise Development Kernel (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> We have uploaded the 3.2.0-1.3 Ubuntu kernel which was based on the upstream v3.2-rc2 kernel.  Please install and test on any kit you have.  Feedback is appreciated.  We've already discovered breakage with the wl DKMS package as well as some suspend/resume and shutdown issues on some Intel Atom kit.  If there are any patches which need to land for Alpha-1, submit them now.
<ogasawara> Important Upcoming Dates:
<ogasawara>  * Thurs Dec 1 - Alpha 1 (~ 1 week)
<ogasawara> ..
<ogasawara> [TOPIC] Status: CVE's (apw)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: CVE's (apw)
<apw> === CVE Metrics ===
<apw>  
<apw> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/cve/pkg/CVE-linux.txt
<apw>  
<apw> Currently open CVEs for each supported branch:
<apw>  
<apw> || Package                                  || Open      ||
<apw> ||                                          ||           ||
<apw> || linux Hardy                              ||    8      ||
<apw> || linux Lucid                              ||    5      ||
<apw> || linux Maverick                           ||    5 (-1) ||
<apw> || linux Natty                              ||    5 (-1) ||
<apw> || linux Oneiric                            ||    4      ||
<apw> || linux Precise                            ||    4      ||
<apw> || linux-ec2 Lucid                          ||    5      ||
<apw> || linux-fsl-imx51 Lucid                    ||    5      ||
<apw> || linux-mvl-dove Lucid                     ||    5      ||
<apw> || linux-mvl-dove Maverick                  ||    5      ||
<apw> || linux-ti-omap4 Maverick                  ||    5 (-2) ||
<apw> || linux-ti-omap4 Natty                     ||    6      ||
<apw> || linux-ti-omap4 Oneiric                   ||    4      ||
<apw> || linux-ti-omap4 Precise                   ||    4      ||
<apw> || linux-lts-backport-maverick Lucid        ||    5 (-1) ||
<apw> || linux-lts-backport-natty Lucid           ||    5 (-1) ||
<apw> || linux-lts-backport-oneiric Lucid         ||    4      ||
<apw>  
<apw> This week four new CVEs were added to the list.  Progress remains slow
<apw> and steady, overall we finish the week with about the same number of
<apw> outstanding CVEs.  One of the new CVEs currently awaits an upstream fix.
<apw>  
<apw> ..
<ogasawara> [TOPIC] Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Oneiric/Natty/Maverick/Lucid/Hardy (bjf/herton)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Oneiric/Natty/Maverick/Lucid/Hardy (bjf/herton)
<herton> Last week saw the verification and testing of the current -proposed
<herton> updates. Here is the status for the main kernels, until yesterday (21/11):
<herton>  
<herton> Hardy - 2.6.24-30.96 update was tested (QA), and passed. It's now
<herton> released on -security/-updates
<herton>  
<herton> Lucid - All reporters verified the bugs fixed by 2.6.32-36.79 update.
<herton> QA finished working on it, with no problems found. It's ongoing
<herton> Certification testing right now, the update will be released once it
<herton> finishes and if no problems are found.
<herton>  
<herton> Maverick - 2.6.35-31.62 update passed QA, and is now released to
<herton> -security/-updates.
<herton>  
<herton> Natty - The current update in progress (2.6.38-13.52) was in
<herton> verification for all of the last week. On Monday, we got test results
<herton> from the last remaining bug to be verified. The update is now waiting
<herton> QA/Certification testing to be released.
<herton>  
<herton> Oneiric - 3.0.0-13.22 was released to -security/-updates. A new
<herton> update is being prepared this week, since Oneiric is with 1 week of offset
<herton> on the 3 weeks cadence, related to the other updates (and we allow this
<herton> on the latest stable kernel). New natty/maverick/lucid/hardy updates
<herton> will only be prepared next week.
<herton>  
<herton> Besides this, on the derivative and backports packages, we got the
<herton> following activity:
<herton> linux-fsl-imx51 (2.6.31-612.30) - testing done and update released
<herton> linux-ec2 (2.6.32-340.40) - packages were prepared and tested. With no
<herton> problems found with QA, it's now officially released.
<herton> linux-ti-omap4 (2.6.35-903.27) - QA found some failures, now running QRT
<herton> tests (not regressions). Paolo is looking at it.
<herton> linux-mvl-dove (2.6.32-420.38) - passed QA, released
<herton> linux-lts-backport-maverick (2.6.35-31.62~lucid1) - released from
<herton> verification, waiting now for QA
<herton> linux-ti-omap4 (2.6.38-1209.17) - Verification and QA done, waiting to
<herton> be copied to -security/-updates
<herton> linux-lts-backport-natty (2.6.38-13.52~lucid1) - released from
<herton> verification, waiting now for QA
<herton> linux-ti-omap4 (3.0.0-1206.12) - Released
<herton> linux-lts-backport-oneiric (3.0.0-13.22~lucid1) - Waiting for QA to be
<herton> released.
<herton>  
<herton> For more details, current opened tracking bugs can be seen at
<herton> http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/kernel-sru-workflow.html
<herton> For SRUs, SRU report is a good source of information:
<herton> http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/sru-report.html
<herton> ..
<ogasawara> [TOPIC] Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
<cking> o/
<ogasawara> cking: go
<cking> I've been doing some power management work, is this required to have a status update in this meeting?
<ogasawara> I think it's appropriate to mention it here
<apw> probabally it shoudl if it is a series goal
<apw> ..
 * cking pastes it into the channel
 * smb would be interested..
<cking> Mainly developing tools and figuring out a test framework, tests and testing plan:
<cking> * vmstat/powertop like power monitoring tool:
<cking>         git://kernel.ubuntu.com/cking/powerstat.git
<cking>         https://launchpad.net/~colin-king/+archive/powermanagement
<cking> * Got Fluke meter configured and reading data with instrument-lib +
<cking>   sort out sampling timings, fix a few minor bugs, etc.+
<cking> * Wrote tools to parse data logs and graph results (in instrument-lib)
<cking> * First cut of automated tests + tools to do multiple runs of tests, gather
<cking>   and analyse data (averages, std.dev.)
<cking>         git://kernel.ubuntu.com/cking/fluke-testing.git
<cking> * Survey various power saving options, start writing tests
<cking> * Currently looking at Atom N450 power consumption for i386, i386-pae, amd64
<cking>   and also general i386 vs amd64 performance differences.
<cking> ..
<cking> ooh, formatting looks lame
<apw> ogasawara, probabally add a Blueprint: <name> section in the notes
<ogasawara> [ACTION] ogasawara add cking power management item to agenda
<meetingology> ACTION: ogasawara add cking power management item to agenda
<ogasawara> anything else from anyone?
<ogasawara> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Nov 22 17:10:00 2011 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-11-22-17.00.moin.txt
<cking> ogasawara, thanks
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-11-23
<cjwatson> hi folks
<barry> o/
<jhunt_> o/
 * stgraber waves
<cjwatson> Steve and Brian are on holiday
<cjwatson> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Nov 23 16:02:42 2011 UTC.  The chair is cjwatson. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<cjwatson> [TOPIC] Lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Lightning round
<cjwatson> $ echo $(shuf -e cjwatson barry doko stgraber jhunt ev)
<cjwatson> doko ev cjwatson jhunt barry stgraber
<doko> - binutils 2.22 release
<doko> - GCC updates
<doko> - eglibc 2.15: new merge from the trunk, tracked down bug #893605, no solution y
<doko> et
<doko> - merged and tested the glibc sf/hf linker patch, ldd not yet working
<doko> - re-enabled previously disabled ruby1.9.1 packages for main
<doko> - some merges
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 893605 in eglibc (Ubuntu) "crashes with glibc-2.14/2.15 on dlopen (seen with kvm and gnucash)" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/893605
<doko> (done)
<ev> Assigned to the DX team for this week; building a Jenkins infrastructure around Autopilot and creating tools for safely constructing Autopilot tests without hosing the developer's local configuration.
<ev> Back on the crash database come this weekend
<ev> (done)
<cjwatson> Mostly finished Perl 5.14 transition.  Worked on a few others (ocaml, imagemagick, icu), cleaned up build failures, etc.
<cjwatson> Finished drafting my specs.
<cjwatson> Looked into the situation with .la files.  I think it would be worth making a bit more of an effort to kill off the ones in Ubuntu which are harmful, but haven't published a report yet.
<cjwatson> Experimented with doing a multiarch i386->amd64 crossgrade.  I've uploaded several of the necessary patches and the rest are awaiting upload by others; after that I'll have another go ...
<cjwatson> Fixed debootstrap confusion when it tries to install a package with two versions in the Packages file.
<cjwatson> Fixed a couple of QA-reported bugs in daily builds: bug 893014, bug 893060, bug 892903.
<cjwatson> Discussed server installer plans with Daviey.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 893014 in user-setup (Ubuntu Precise) "'user-setup-udeb' failed with error code 1 on alternate when 'Encrypt your home directory' is selected" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/893014
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 893060 in casper (Ubuntu Precise) "on live session ubiquity launcher asks for password" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/893060
<cjwatson> Some archive infrastructure work: moved a few jobs from ftpmaster to people, arranged for them to attempt to run earlier in the hour and retry later if need be, and filed an RT to allow the next similar chunk of work.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 892903 in partman-crypto (Ubuntu) "encrypted LVM install fails with "unsafe swap space detected"" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/892903
<cjwatson> (done)
<jhunt_> Similar to last week: More blueprint work. Raft of Upstart Cookbook
<jhunt_> updates (not yet published). Lots of work on Upstart Job Logging -
<jhunt_> resolved the failing test issue and reworked the tests for the new
<jhunt_> architecture. Currently finishing the required changes to the inotify
<jhunt_> handling in the test code.
<jhunt_> ð¤
<barry> much work on dbus-python for python 3.  branch compiles for both 2.7 and 3.2.  still working on one pesky test failure under python 3, but at least it doesn't crash any more.  will be blogging about it today, and following up on the python-porting mailing list.  also did: consulted for a while w/launchpad guys about a mysterious mailman outage; updated claws plugins; finished up blueprints.  out tomorrow and friday for usa holiday.
<barry> done.
<stgraber> - Testing tracker
<stgraber>  - http://91.189.93.73 is usually up to date with what's in the branch
<stgraber>  - Got most of the UI working, you can now file testing results on it!
<stgraber>  - Spent most of Monday working on migration scripts and SSO integration to match the 30k users in the current DB with their LP accounts
<stgraber>  - Getting ready to use the test instance for alpha-1 testing
<stgraber>  - More UI improvements
<stgraber>  - Working build notifications
<stgraber>  - Working subscriptions/unsubscriptions, still need to work on UI a bit
<stgraber> - Worked on bug 823366, still need to wait for some feedback from Tom Ellis and try to reproduce slangasek's issue in VM, then upload and SRU time!
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 823366 in ifenslave-2.6 (Ubuntu) "bond_primary is ignored in /etc/network/interfaces" [Undecided,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/823366
<stgraber> - TODO
<stgraber>  - Get the ISO tracker ready for alpha-1
<stgraber>  - Setup ISO tracker for Daily testing and get the CD build machine to push the new builds automatically
<stgraber>  - Look at the new ifupdown in Debian (beta2), isolate the fix for bug 876829 and SRU to Oneiric
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 876829 in ifupdown (Ubuntu Precise) "Oneiric's ifupdown breaks ip aliases" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/876829
<stgraber>  - Still need to get my iSCSI test setup online again and then look at the merge...
<stgraber> (done)
<stgraber> (hopefully I'll be able to work a bit on my non-ISO tracker work items next week :))
<stgraber> oh, and if you have a few minutes to spare, please try and break the ISO tracker at http://91.189.93.73
<stgraber> I'm looking at the logs and fixing anything that breaks :)
<cjwatson> since Brian's on holiday, I'll skip the bugs topic; if you have anything you're concerned about, that can be AOB :)
<cjwatson> [TOPIC] Blueprints
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Blueprints
<cjwatson> Does anyone have blueprints they *haven't* finished drafting yet, or that haven't been approved?
 * doko needs to finish two
<cjwatson> (https://blueprints.launchpad.net/~/+specs?role=drafter may help)
<cjwatson> The deadline is this Friday, so please send me an IRC message or e-mail when you're done with those and I guess I'll substitute for Steve as approver
<cjwatson> [TOPIC] AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<cjwatson> the multiarch crossgrade stuff I was playing with has the makings of being really cool :)
<cjwatson> (I'm not doing anything clever myself, just filling in metadata really)
<barry> cjwatson: can you describe more what it would allow us to do?
<doko> like Multi-Arch: foreign attributes?
<ev> cjwatson: the crash database hasn't been approved: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/foundations-p-crash-database
<cjwatson> barry: upgrade from i386 to amd64 in-place
<stgraber> oh, that reminds me I need to push quite a few more Multi-Arch:foreign changes to make upstart:i386 install on amd64 :)
<cjwatson> doko: yeah, and a few more serious multiarchings
<cjwatson> (like libapt)
<barry> nice
<cjwatson> ev: ack, thanks
<ev> cheers
<cjwatson> ev: if you're ready for it to be looked at, please mark it Review or Pending Approval
<ev> oops! Thought I had done. That must be why Steve skipped it
<ev> done
<cjwatson> could be
<cjwatson> barry: well, when I say in-place, it requires one reboot in the middle; hard to automate completely
<cjwatson> (you need a 64-bit kernel in order to execute any 64-bit binaries)
<barry> oh, that's so windows
<cjwatson> heh
<stgraber> cjwatson: I'm sure you can get rid of that extra reboot by installing qemu-user-static
<cjwatson> I thought of that as I was typing it
<stgraber> but that's going to make things a lot slower :)
<stgraber> then you can try a crossgrade from i386 to armel on a x86_64 machine :)
<stgraber> (would need some tweaks to load the binfmt stuff very very early though)
<cjwatson> and you'd need to force binfmt-support to stay native-arch - doesn't sound so fun
<cjwatson> you could crossgrade a chroot though
<barry> that would actually be pretty interesting
<cjwatson> anything else, or shall we finish early?
<stgraber> nothing here
<barry> i'm good
<cjwatson> happy thanksgiving, those who celebrate it :)
<barry> thanks! :)
<doko> one of the faster meetings ...
<stgraber> that was months ago ;)
<cjwatson> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Nov 23 16:21:37 2011 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-11-23-16.02.moin.txt
<stgraber> (yeah for some reason Canada and the US don't agree on thanksgiving's date... ours was on the 10th of October)
<stgraber> thanks!
<ev> pff, what does Canada have to be thankful for?
<ogra_> elks !
<ev> :)
<stgraber> ;)
<gema> Ubuntu QA Team meeting starting in 10 mins, big announcement today at the end of the meeting (at least for those who haven't been reading #ubuntu-bugs)!!
<gema> ok, so we are starting the QA Team Weekly meeting
<gema> #startmeeting Ubuntu QA Team
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Nov 23 18:01:27 2011 UTC.  The chair is gema. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu QA Team Meeting | Current topic:
<gema> anyone here for the meeting?
<Ursinha> o/
<gema> cool, hello Ursinha , it may just be the two of us :D
<Ursinha> lol
<Ursinha> nuclearbob too?
<nuclearbob> I'm here
<gema> excellent!
<IAmNotThatGuy> Hi. I also will be watching =]
<gema> jibel told me he cannot attend but gave me his feedback
<gema> IAmNotThatGuy: welcome :D
<gema> there we go, let's get started then
<gema> [TOPIC] Previous Actions (all)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu QA Team Meeting | Current topic:  Previous Actions (all)
<gema> the only previous action I am aware of is me chairing the meeting
<gema> do you guys have anything else?
<gema> ok, cool, let's keep going
<gema> [TOPIC] Community Efforts/Testing
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu QA Team Meeting | Current topic:  Community Efforts/Testing
<gema> I have two calls for testing from jibel :)
<gema> 1) people interested can try to break the new tracker at http://91.189.93.73/qatracker
<gema> 2) A1 is next week, so people can start testing dailies and are welcome to participate to A1 milestone testing starting on Monday/Tuesday
<gema> A1 is already here, so please please, get your awesome manual testing started!
<gema> anything else from anyone?
<gema> moving on
<gema> [TOPIC] Automated/Systems Testing
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu QA Team Meeting | Current topic:  Automated/Systems Testing
<gema> so, I have feedback from jibel here too:
<gema> * we are now keeping 15 days on ISO in the Lab https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-p-builds-smoke-testing
<gema> we are starting a historic of builds so that when a build is broken, we can go back and test on yesterdays
<gema> we'll keep 2 weeks worth of builds for now
<gema> we'll let you know as soon as they are externally accessible
<gema> * Unity Testing: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/desktop-p-unity-quality + https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/AutomatedTesting/UnityAutolandingSetup
<gema> details regarding the unity testing we are trying to run on Jenkins
<gema> or rather, we are running
<gema> * desktop images are broken but we are working on it
<gema> anything else to report, anyone?
<gema> nuclearbob?
<nuclearbob> we've got a wrapper to run the qa-regression-testing scripts in autotest now
<nuclearbob> I'
<nuclearbob> m getting autotest packaged so we can get it installed in the new lab and start using it to run qrt tests from jenkins
<gema> sounds good, thanks, anyone else?
<nuclearbob> I'll also be working on collecting manual testing results from checkbox to get them into the same data source as our automated testing, but that project is still commencing
<nuclearbob> ..
<gema> sorry, :D
<gema> oh, yep, integrating checkbox with litmus
<gema> I forgot to mention, we are in the process of getting a litmus instance installed for everyone to use and contribute test cases to
<gema> this is a pilot, we'll let you know whenever it is ready to use
<gema> (i.e. when it is fully functional)
<gema> that's all from us, I think
<gema> [TOPIC] Engineering Team Bug Status (hggdh, Ursinha, pedro_, bdmurray)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu QA Team Meeting | Current topic:  Engineering Team Bug Status (hggdh, Ursinha, pedro_, bdmurray)
<gema> Ursinha ?
<gema> pedro_: are you there?
<pedro_> i'm around yes
<Ursinha> I am, but nothing to report
<gema> anything to report from you, pedro_ ?
<Ursinha> working on refactoring bug workflows of our teams
<gema> Ursinha: thanks :)
<pedro_> gema, nothing really important to share in the meeting
<gema> ok, hggdh was working on an SRU problem before , so I think he is busy
<gema> let's move on
<gema> [TOPIC] Other Topics
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu QA Team Meeting | Current topic:  Other Topics
<gema> and here is the important update
<gema> there will be IMPORTANT CHANGES to this meeting from next week onwards
<gema> we are going to be splitting this meeting in two different ones, one for QA/testing and another one for Bug triaging
<gema> the bug triaging meeting will keep this slot and the QA meeting will happen, from next week onwards one hour earlier
<gema> you are more than welcome to contribute to the two agendas and propose new items for discussion
<gema> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Meetings and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugSquad/Meetings
<gema> I will be sending an email to ubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com, ubuntu-qa@lists.ubuntu.com, ubuntu-bugsquad@lists.ubuntu.com and ubuntu-bugcontrol@lists.launchpad.net regarding the change so that everyone is aware for next week
 * Ursinha likes the change
<pedro_> cool :-)
<gema> :D
<pedro_> gema, thanks for organizing it
<gema> pedro_: no problem
<gema> does anyone have any question regarding the change or any concerns?
<gema> ok, so we will move on and choose two people for next week's meetings :)
<gema> [TOPIC] Chair Selection
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu QA Team Meeting | Current topic:  Chair Selection
<gema> since it is the first one for QA alone, I will be chairing that and discussing a new agenda and stuff like that
<gema> who wants to volunteer for the bugs meeting?
<pedro_> i can do that
<gema> thanks pedro_
<pedro_> np
<gema> [ACTION] Gema to chair the new QA meeting
<meetingology> ACTION: Gema to chair the new QA meeting
<gema> [ACTION] pedro_ to chair the new Bugs meeting
<meetingology> ACTION: pedro_ to chair the new Bugs meeting
<gema> thanks everyone for your time
<nuclearbob> thanks for chairing
<gema> np
<gema> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Nov 23 18:24:59 2011 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-11-23-18.01.moin.txt
<Ursinha> thanks gema!
<gema> thank you all :D
<pedro_> thanks gema!
<gema> I will update the wikis and then send the announcement to the lists
<greg-g> gema: wait! what was the big annoucement at the end of the meeting?! ;)
<gema> greg-g: did you miss it!?
<gema> greg-g: we are splitting the meeting in two :)
<greg-g> oh... oops ;)
<gema> greg-g: so that people with interest in only QA can come to that one, and people with interest only in bugs can come to that one
<hggdh> oh, I missed it, sorry
<gema> greg-g: I guess you were expecting something more juicy ;)
<greg-g> gema: awesome, that seems very useful!
<greg-g> gema: and more exclamation marks, really
<greg-g> :P
<hggdh> !!?
<gema> greg-g: we hope so, we are looking for as much help as we can in both areas !!!
<greg-g> haha, there you go
<gema> greg-g: are you a tester then or a bug triager?
<greg-g> triager
<gema> greg-g: cool :)
<gema> hggdh: you missed the meeting, man
<hggdh> greg-g actually does all ;-)
<greg-g> though, I've been on hiatus for the past bit, mostly just hang out in -bugs now and help out when I can. Havne't been doing much concerted triage effort lately :(
<hggdh> gema: yes, I did, very sorry
<gema> hggdh: no problem, I told them you were busy
<gema> greg-g: it is never late to come back whenever you feel like it
<greg-g> hggdh: :) I do spread my time out, I guess
<hggdh> greg-g: and I always rely on you being somewhere near...
<greg-g> awww, shucks
<hggdh> :-)
<gema> hggdh: I am updating the wikis and then I will send the email, make sure I don't get moderated on my way to bug-control :P
<gema> pedro_: I am changing the bugsquad header meeting
<gema> is that a different meeting from the one we are setting up for next week?
<gema> it says: Next Bug Squad Team Meeting, Thursday, December 8th, 2011, 17:00 UTC, #ubuntu-meeting - (details).
<pedro_> yes that's different
<gema> ah, then I won't touch it
<gema> you can manage that
<pedro_> we'll discuss if keep it or not next week
<gema> :)
<gema> pedro_: ok, I am done messing about with your wiki, you may want to start saving the meeting logs in the bugsquad area from now on so that we keep two separate histories
 * gilir takes a seat
 * stlsaint sits...
 * jmarsden|work reaches for his sandwiches (lunch time!)
 * bioterror can has coke
 * M0hi noms them all
<bioterror> freeloader :(
<michaelrawson> we start at 8, right?
<jmarsden|work> We start 2 minutes ago, officially :)
<gilir> yes, waiting 1 or 2 minutes for late people :)
<michaelrawson> k.
<gilir> ok, let's go
<gilir> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Nov 23 20:04:23 2011 UTC.  The chair is gilir. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<gilir> Welcome to the 1st lubuntu team meeting :)
<M0hi> o/
<gilir> let me explain the rules first :)
<gilir> Agenda is available on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu/IRC%20Meetings/Agenda
<gilir> the meeting will last 1 hour, any items left will be discussed next week
<gilir> logs, actions etc ... will be available on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu/Meetings/20111123 for this meeting
<gilir> if you have any questions during the meeting, raise your hand : o/
<gilir> I will go with the different items of the agenda from people who are here :)
<stephen-smally> Hi, i'm here
<gilir> just in time :)
<gilir> [TOPIC] Plan for the website lubuntu.net
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Plan for the website lubuntu.net
<gilir> So, people expressed some concerns about the website
<M0hi> gilir, Are we supposed/allowed to maintain a separate site for the OS ?
<gilir> I think we are all agree that it needs some work :p
<gilir> M0hi, you mean separate from the wiki page ?
<michaelrawson> xubuntu & kubuntu have their own.
<M0hi> gilir, yes
<bioterror> kubuntu has own, so does xubuntu
<gilir> yes, you can do more things than on the wiki
<jmarsden|work> Terminology: GNU/Linux is the OS, Ubuntu is the distribution, Lubutu is the flavour.  We can have a dedicated web site for the Lubutu flavour of Ubuntu, yes.
<M0hi> Okies
<michaelrawson> o/
<gilir> I put a page on the wiki, to gather some ideas : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu/Marketing/Website_Plan
<gilir> yes michaelrawson
<michaelrawson> I think amjjawad and morgaes were cooking up some prototypes for the site....
<michaelrawson> do they know about the page and were are they today?
<michaelrawson> *where are they
<gilir> yes, and rafael also have ideas about the website
<gilir> I hope, I posted it on the mailing list
<michaelrawson> okay, as long as they know. :)
<gilir> we also discussed with Mario about this, I'll put our ideas also on the wiki
<cjohnston> I would be willing to help with the website. Especially the getting it hosted by Canonical.. I have a good working relationship with IS
<cjohnston> Not saying I can get it approved to be hosted, but if it does get approved, working with IS on making it happen
<michaelrawson> While I can't web design as such, I can check for basic errors like spell checks .
<gilir> thanks cjohnston :) hopefully we fixed our hosting problem recently :)
<gilir> our main problem now, is more on the content and the technicals issues
<cjohnston> Right
<michaelrawson> and the layout. IMO.
<gilir> ok, so I encourage every people who have ideas to put them on the wiki page
<gilir> we can summarize them after
<jmarsden|work> How the lubuntu.net web site relates to Lubuntu wiki content is also a major issue.  Duplicating everything would be bad.
<stephen-smally> we should redirect to the wiki for more specific infos
<gilir> yes (for michaelrawson and jmarsden|work )
<gilir> IMO, wiki should be for documentation and team organization, and only hosted by the wiki
<Yorvyk> So we need to decide what the Lubuntu.net is for
<michaelrawson> maybe (like ubuntu) "best of the wiki" could be put in the official documentation?
<stephen-smally> michaelrawson: agree, why not put the content in the main page (of the wiki) in the website
<gilir> well for me wiki = wiki.ubuntu.com + help.ubuntu.com
<michaelrawson> me too. but yelp (?) integrates with it (?)
<gilir> michaelrawson, that's another problem :) to be able to have documentation offline on the system
<gilir> well, many people who raised concerns about the website are not here :)
<michaelrawson> move on to next topic?
<gilir> so I propose to send a reminder on the mailing list
<M0hi> Okies
<gilir> and move to the next topic ?
<M0hi> M0hi, No #action needed?
<michaelrawson> agree gilir
<stephen-smally> agree
<gilir> [ACTION] Send a reminder about Website_Plan wiki page
<meetingology> ACTION: Send a reminder about Website_Plan wiki page
<bioterror> o/
<gilir> yes bioterror
<bioterror> could the website be more like xubuntu and kubuntu has it?, Get Lubuntu, Get help & Support and Get Involved
<bioterror> I think that's really good, also they have some tours and explanations what it is all about
<bioterror> less is more
<michaelrawson> o/
<jmarsden|work> bioterror: Post ideas to the Website_Plan page :)
<bioterror> I will
<gilir> why not, the subject is pretty open :)
<gilir> yes michaelrawson
<michaelrawson> xubuntu & kubuntu sites are VERY similiar...why not 'clone' a website for now and find and replace lubuntu instead of xubuntu? quick fix
<M0hi> brb
<michaelrawson> if you see what I mean.
<michaelrawson> I'll put on wiki if nobody kills me. :)
<gilir> we can probaly copy the design, but not the content
<stephen-smally> michaelrawson: +1, i like the xubuntu site. gilir: obviously ;-)
<gilir> but you write your idea on the wiki ;)
<gilir> ok, next topic :)
<gilir> [TOPIC] PowerPC ISO
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: PowerPC ISO
<gilir> There are some resquests for a powerpc ISO of lubuntu
<stephen-smally> gilir: can we just built it with the ubuntu system?
<gilir> fortunatly for this cycle, we have people willing to test the ISOs :)
<gilir> stephen-smally, it's already build, we just need testers
<stephen-smally> gilir: perfect
<gilir> to test and validate the quality of the ISO
<gilir> according to the mailing list, we have at least 2 testers, so it's just fine :)
<Yorvyk> I can do that and have a couple of people interested - I'm trying tp persuade them to join the mailing list.
<jmarsden|work> Is testing in an emulation environment like sheepshaver or pearpc likely to be useful?  Or do we need real physical powerpc hardware?
<gilir> Yorvyk, great :)
<Yorvyk> jmarsden|work: Any testing is useful
<gilir> jmarsden|work, if we have enough people to test on real hardware, it won't be necessary IMO
<jmarsden|work> OK
<gilir> don't forget that we have also i386 and amd64 to test ;)
<bioterror> and probably soon ARM is coming
<gilir> I'll do also a mail on the mailing to try to convince more people to do ISO testing
<stephen-smally> ARM? would be great, but i think there aren't plans by Ubuntu... (i'm looking for setup the raspberry pi, a 25$ computer)
<Yorvyk> Perhaps advertising outside the mailing list may help
<gilir> bioterror, for ARM, we need testers, devices to test, and to create the images
<M0hi> gilir, Lets get the whole list of testers so that it will be easy to contact the testing team
<gilir> they don't exist yet, unlike powerpc ISO
<bioterror> gilir, I could make a small invest thru dealxtreme. I have some interest
<gilir> [ACTION] Send a mail about ISO testing to the mailing list for Alpha 1
<meetingology> ACTION: Send a mail about ISO testing to the mailing list for Alpha 1
<stephen-smally> gilir, i will be very happy to test the ARM iso (in a month +-), if necessary
<Yorvyk> Should we send something to the news letter.  It might reach more people.
<gilir> ARM is a more complex subject, but we can discuss it next week
<stephen-smally> allright
<gilir> [ACTION] Put an item about ARM images for next meeting
<meetingology> ACTION: Put an item about ARM images for next meeting
<gilir> ok, if the powerpc subject is over, let's move to the next one
<gilir> [TOPIC] Old PC supporting or New Kernel for 12.04
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Old PC supporting or New Kernel for 12.04
<gilir> M0hi, if you are agree, I'll introduce the subject :)
<M0hi> gilir, proceed =]
<gilir> so there is an ongoing discussion about the PAE support on the kernel for 12.04
<gilir> currently, no decision was made by the kernel team
<gilir> it's expected next week
<gilir> also, we are unsure of the number of CPU affected by this
<gilir> jmarsden|work, suggested a command to test it, but so far not so many reports
<gilir> or we can assume that nobody is affected :)
<bioterror> those computers that gets affected are mostly from the late 90's
<gilir> well, I don't think we can do more for now, except doing the test
<jmarsden|work> bioterror: How do you know this, and have you found any that can run 11.04 or 11.10 but do not have PAE?
<bioterror> jmarsden|work, sorry, but I dont work at museum of old computers
<stephen-smally> and, if i have a late 90's machine, i would install archlinux or something very scalable (you know, lubuntu is not so usable with 128 Mb ram, i've a machine like this, with a old AMD Athlon)
<jmarsden|work> So we're at <gilir> or we can assume that nobody is affected :)
<Sarvatt> first generation intel macbook was sold in 2006 and had a pentium M without PAE for instance, its not that old
<wxl> oops am i too late?
<bioterror> Sarvatt, my friend has one. it only supports 3GB of RAM
<Sarvatt> it also wont boot ubuntu anymore if it goes in
<Sarvatt> (sorry to interrupt the meeting)
<bioterror> that was a good point
<gilir> Sarvatt, any information is welcome, thanks :)
<jmarsden|work> OK, all we can do is ask for more testing and watch for others doing similar investigation of which machines are affected.
<gilir> +1 jmarsden|work
<gilir> ok, so let's move to the next topic
<gilir> 10 minutes left
<gilir> [TOPIC] LxPanel developing status
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: LxPanel developing status
<gilir> stephen-smally, it's your turn :)
<stephen-smally> Ok, ;-)
<stephen-smally> Maybe you don't know this, but Lxpanel is pretty inactive
<stephen-smally> (under the developing profile)
<wxl> i would argue that lxpanel needs development in applets more than IT needs development
<michaelrawson> +1, wxl
<wxl> a ram monitor, for one
<gilir> well, it needs maintainance + bug fixing at least :/
<Yorvyk> If it's not being developed nobody will provide applets for it
<frankbooth> +1 gilir
<jmarsden|work> stephen-smally: are you volunteering to take over lxpanel maintenance?
<michaelrawson> python support for applets would be nice,  but I won't get on to that now. Currently you have to do everyting in C, which is offputting.
<wxl> well that's a good point Yorvyk but what would replace it?
<gilir> stephen-smally, so, what's the point ? :) We know we have a panel problem :)
<stephen-smally> Ok, i talked to pcman, wich is the main developer of lxpanel
<stephen-smally> he's planning a rewrite of lxpanel in vala+gtk3
<gilir> yes, but we don't know when, he still have work to do for the filemanager
<stephen-smally> yes, i know
<gilir> IMO, we should keep lxpanel for now, try to fix it
<gilir> and eventually, rewrite some parts in vala if we have time
<stephen-smally> ok, i can do this, anyway
<gilir> as we can mix C and Vala
<stephen-smally> yes, we can, the build system will need some instruction, but it's possible
<gilir> stephen-smally, but you have also others projects, don't forget :)
<michaelrawson> Surely Vala makes C code, so we shouldn't have to mix?
<stephen-smally> ;-), yes
<gilir> stephen-smally, we still need a release of LSC
<jmarsden|work> michaelrawson: You can rewrite all of lxpanel in Vala if you have the time and skills, otherwise, it can be migrated slowly, mixing vala with the existing C code :)
<stephen-smally> anyway, i'm also available for lxpanel in vala
<Yorvyk> 3 minutes to go
<michaelrawson> jmarsden|work compile vala first, then compile C code?
<stephen-smally> what's after us?
<gilir> stephen-smally, thanks, but we should talk about LSC and LXScreeshot before planning development time on lxpanel
<jmarsden|work> michaelrawson: Order doesn't matter, compile everything (C or Vala) -> object code, then link it together.
<stephen-smally> ok, Lxscreenshot is already done, i can make a project and a release if needed
<gilir> stephen-smally, no one, but we have too much items after this one :)
<michaelrawson> okay, jmarsden|work, thanks for clarification. :)
<wxl> i personally would rather see lxpanel developed than lsc/lxscreenshot, but that may be me
<stephen-smally> gilir: so we can occupy a little the channel? XD
<jmarsden|work> stephen-smally: Some of us are at work...
<gilir> stephen-smally, it needs some polishing (like translation, command line support etc ...) but I can send you list
<stephen-smally> wxl: i partially agree
<gilir> stephen-smally, but yes, lxscreenshot is almost ready
<stephen-smally> ok, if you want some interface improvements let me know ;-)
<wxl> stephen-smally: my argument being that lxpanel is absolutely essential-- every user uses it. less people need lxscreenshot and scrot does the trick for those that do need it. plus synaptic does do the trick.
<gilir> [ACTION] Send comments about lxscreenshot to stephen-smally
<meetingology> ACTION: Send comments about lxscreenshot to stephen-smally
<gilir> wxl, but having project half finished is not nice also
<stephen-smally> wxl: i agree, so i'm available to help in lxpanel
<wxl> +1 gilir
<stephen-smally> gilir: yes, the situation is not so good, i'm the only who develop lsc
<michaelrawson> just installed lxpanel, works brilliantly.
<michaelrawson> stephen-smally I'm happy to help lsc if you can teach me roughly where stuff goes.
<stephen-smally> michaelrawson: thanks, we can discuss it via mails
<michaelrawson> yup.
<gilir> stephen-smally, ok, so let's finish the meeting here, can we talk about lsc on #lubuntu just after ?
<stephen-smally> of course
<gilir> or mail if you prefer
<stephen-smally> as you like, i prefer irc anyway
<gilir> Yorvyk, sorry for your subjects, I report them on the top of the list for next week
<gilir> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Nov 23 21:05:16 2011 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-11-23-20.04.moin.txt
<wxl> where is the log of this meeting btw?
<wxl> ah nevermind ;)
<Yorvyk> That's OK.  I've added another one :)
<stephen-smally> #lubuntu or #lubuntu-offtopiv?
<stephen-smally> *c
<wxl> #lubuntu-offtopic
<stephen-smally> ok
<stephen-smally> here we go
<wxl> see you there
<gilir> log are here : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu/Meetings/20111123
 * M0hi is off to bed. bye
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-11-24
 * janimo waves
 * infinity coughs.
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-11-25
<ogra_> heh
<ogra_> scott-upstairs, is there also a scott-basement and a scott-attic ?
 * skaet waves
 * ogra_ moos
 * scott-upstairs waves
 * tumbleweed notices we've moved an hour later
<ogra_> tumbleweed, 16:00 UTC ...
<scott-upstairs> no, ogra_ , just my regular latptop (ScottL) and one of the other computers when i'm upstairs in my studio room
<ogra_> ah :)
 * madnick is always "madnick-basement"
<scott-upstairs> lols
<scott-upstairs> oh, where did skaet go?
<scott-upstairs> cjwatson, luke told me to mention to you that you "need to fix up the groups for studio in the studio preseed file in the debian-cd code, he will know what you are talking about"
 * highvoltage waves
 * skaet seems to be having IRC weirdness...   could be an interesting meeting.
 * stgraber waves
<skaet> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Fri Nov 25 16:00:22 2011 UTC.  The chair is skaet. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<pitti> o/
<skaet> [TOPIC] Release general overview - skaet
<skaet> Agenda can be found: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/2011-11-25
<skaet> There will be a couple of tweaks to the round table order today.  Edubuntu will be going earlier,  after Cert and QA.
<skaet> .
<skaet> Reminder: New format for the meeting is to review the comments posted by other teams in ubuntu-release maillist before the meeting, and then ask questions.
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Release general overview - skaet
<skaet> During round table Q&A time,  please post link to your mail message, and any additional comments.  When you've finished comments/questions signal by ".."
<skaet> If you want to ask a question,  please "o/" so we know to wait for you.
<skaet> .
<skaet> Schedule for this release will be at:
<skaet> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PrecisePangolin/ReleaseSchedule
<skaet> #link http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars/ubuntu-release-calendar/
<skaet> .
<cjwatson> scott-upstairs: I replied to your mail
<scott-upstairs> cjwatson, thank you (i will read it shortly)
<skaet> We've now passed Feature Definition Freeze,  and status tracker has been reset.
<skaet> There are 2084 work items on the tracker as of 2011/11/25, a little up from last release.
<skaet> #link  http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-precise/
<skaet>  .
<skaet> Bugs committed to be fixed by the engineering teams can be found:
<skaet> #link http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/kernel-bugs/reports/rls-p-tracking-bugs.html
<skaet> Bugs that you would like the engineering teams to consider for fixing, should be assigned to those teams.
<skaet> .
<skaet> Upcoming Dates:
<skaet> â¢ 11/28 - 21:00  Soft Freeze for Alpha 1
<skaet> â¢ 11/29 - Images for testing posted on ISO tracker
<skaet> â¢ 12/01 - Alpha 1 release.
<skaet> .
<skaet> For alpha 1 we'll be testing out the new ISO tracker at: http://91.189.93.73/   We're working with IS to get it deployed on the main servers.    A big thank you to stgraber and jibel and other early testers for getting it ready in time for alpha 1.  :)
<skaet> .
<skaet> Any questions before stgraber gives us an overview of the plans for testing the new ISO tracker next week and then we move into the round table?
<skaet> ..
<skaet> [TOPIC] New ISO tracker overview - stgraber
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: New ISO tracker overview - stgraber
<stgraber> ISO testing for alpha-1 will be happening on the new ISO tracker at http://91.189.93.73
<stgraber> The tracker is currently being tested with dailies and runs an import of the old tracker (http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com).
<stgraber>  
<stgraber> On Sunday, I'll be flushing everything on http://91.189.93.73 except for the daily results.
<stgraber> I'll then make another import of the old tracker and will then disable the old tracker and put a link to the new one in the header.
<stgraber> The switch will be announced to ubuntu-devel, ubuntu-qa, ubuntu-testing (forgot any?)
<stgraber>  
<stgraber> Next week, the builds will be posted on that new tracker and you'll be notified by e-mail as usual.
<stgraber> In the event where something goes wrong during alpha-1 testing, we'll be switching back to the old one (results will be kept).
<stgraber>  
<stgraber> Authentication now works using Ubuntu SSO (OpenID) and Launchpad teams for access.
<stgraber> Members of ~ubuntu-qa-website-devel and ~ubuntu-release have admin access, everyone else (with an account) has reporter access.
<stgraber>  
<stgraber> Current known limitations include the to-be-implemented My subscriptions page and the download links.
<stgraber> Download links should be implemented at some point today and I'll try to get the subscriptions page done over the weekend.
<stgraber>  
<stgraber> I invite everyone to make sure their account work (as they need to be automatically merged at first login) and to play a bit with the new site.
<stgraber> I added "A test milestone" for you to play around and try to break the site :)
<stgraber> ..
<skaet> Thanks stgraber!
 * skaet looks around for o/?
<pitti> o/
<skaet> go pitti
<pitti> any fundamentally different features, structure, etc. we need to be aware of?
<pitti> or is it pretty much working like the old one from an "user"'s POV?
<pitti> I clicked around a bit, and it does look familiar enough
<stgraber> nothing too visible at the moment, biggest difference is access to the archive and the possibility of adding a rebuild reason when adding new builds
<pitti> ah, that's handy
<pitti> you mean s/adding/disabling/ ?
<pitti> that's a nicer place to keep that information than the etherpad
<stgraber> the DB supports new things like hardware profile, multiple results per user, per-milestone testcases, ... but it's not exposed at the moment as I want to be able to push results back to the old tracker if needed
 * skaet happily notes its better interface on admin side, too   ;)
<stgraber> it's a note field for each build, so you can use it to tell the testers what really needs testing
<stgraber> or to tell why something got disabled when marking it for rebuild
<pitti> looks nice, we shouldn't have problems finding our way there; thanks!
<stgraber> (though I noticed the UI for the later seems to be missing, adding that to my todo for this afternoon ;))
<pitti> .. (in case you were waiting for that)
<cjwatson> also, all daily builds are auto-posted
<cjwatson> we'll just change a config file on nusakan to flip that to a milestone
<cjwatson> (not all auto-posted today, because the tracker went down and also we spotted a security problem (fixeD))
<cjwatson> *fixed
<pitti> so with (what feels like) 20 minute ISO builds, auto-posting, QA auto-testing, and publish-image-set.py, isn't that pretty much a fully scripted release manager? :-)
<pitti> (srsly, this all makes me soo happy!)
<stgraber> right, and for these of you wondering, you won't get spammed for daily builds :)
<skaet> :)
<ogra_> 20min iso builds ....
 * ogra_ is so envious
<alourie> stgraber: is the new site points to the regular data? or something else?
<stgraber> the current site is using a DB import from iso.qa.ubuntu.com from an hour ago
<alourie> ah
<alourie> ok
<stgraber> schema is different so I can't simply use the same DB but I have import/export scripts to transfer data back to the old tracker if needed
<skaet> Thanks again stgraber!  Very much looking forward to switching to this new tracker!!
 * skaet moves on to round tables now...
<skaet> [TOPIC] Hardware Certification team update - mlegris
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Hardware Certification team update - mlegris
<skaet> hmm.... he seems to be away
<skaet> [TOPIC] QA team update -  jibel
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: QA team update -  jibel
<jibel> hi
<pitti> o/ (question)
<skaet> go pitti
<pitti> jibel: can you please give a quick status quo of which tests currently happen to daily ISOs? do we have any? smoketesting? anything else?
<pitti> i. e. to what degree can we trust an image that gets posted, and how much manual smoketesting testing should we do before we post it to the tracker?
<pitti> asking in context of the a1 release next week
<pitti> ISTR that in past cycles we had an automatic smoke tester, but it was never fully clear to me when/how that runs
<pitti> ..
<Daviey> pitti: upgrade testing, or fresh install?
<pitti> fresh install of ISOs
<pitti> I'm aware of the upgrade testing
<pitti> i. e. slam them into a VM, run ubiquity with leaning on the Return key, and see if the result boots
<jibel> ok, the current automated test are triggered automatically when a new build is available on cdimage.u.c
<pitti> yes, oversimplified, but in essence "does the installer crash during the default options"
<jibel> it uses preseeding and runs in VMs
<jibel> we are testing a default installation, LVM, encrypted home, different tasksel selections
<jibel> I don't have the exhaustive list on the top og my mind but can send it to the list
<pitti> so ideally we should only auto-post an image after that ran and succeeded, not immediately from the ISO build itself
<pitti> jibel: wow, that's already more than I hoped for :)
<jibel> we are testing both d-i and ubiquity
<Daviey> (jibel spotted an issue on on server default install for us today :)
<pitti> jibel: how do we learn if an image is good/bad? checking at jenkins? or does it make some noise if a test case fails?
<jibel> Daviey, bug 894187 maybe ?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 894187 in console-setup (Ubuntu Precise) "d-i preseeded installation fails because keyboard-configuration/xkb-keymap is not set" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/894187
<stgraber> hopefully on the ISO tracker (once the result API is ready ;))
<pitti> ah, so that's how it works -- the smoketest auto-posts results?
<jibel> pitti, notifications are sent to a mailing list
<jibel> when a test fails, when it's unstable (some of the tests fails) or back to normal
<skaet> jibel,   what's the mailing list,  and how can folks subscribe?
<pitti> jibel, stgraber: fantastic, thanks to you guys for setting this up
<stgraber> pitti: not yet, but that's the idea now that we have the dailies on the tracker. I have a results.get_list and results.add XMLRPC calls in the new tracker, though it's not public yet as the API will change post-alpha1 (ability to post multiple results and link to hardware)
<jibel> or you can check the status on https://jenkins.qa.ubuntu.com/view/Precise%20Daily%20ISOs/
 * pitti shuts up now, 'nuff owning of the meeting
<stgraber> pitti: so hopefully for alpha-2 we'll have the automated testing and upgrade testing reporting to the tracker
<Daviey> \o/
<jibel> we'll have a real dashboard really soon
<pitti> https://jenkins.qa.ubuntu.com/view/Precise%20Daily%20ISOs/ will do just fine for a1
<cjwatson> pitti: we auto-post everything as dailies because the QA results are attached to posted-for-testing images
<pitti> I mean, WTH, for oneiric and earlier we had to manually run an ISO just to find out that the installer crashes right away
<cjwatson> perhaps we could promote things to milestone builds after daily testing or something
<cjwatson> but yeah, we don't need to discuss that noww
<cjwatson> Daviey: the bug jibel referred to above will be fixed at the next d-i rebuild
<pitti> right, I just wanted to know where to look and what happens
<cjwatson> (later today)
<Daviey> \o/
<Daviey> Today is just getting better, and better
<skaet> jibel,   what's the mailing list,  and how can folks subscribe?
<jibel> skaet, https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-testing-notifications
<skaet> jibel,  Thanks!
<jibel> just a word about the test we are doing for upgrade
<skaet> and a big thank you to you and all the QA team for the work you've been doing to get this hooked up.  :)
<skaet> jibel,  go ahead.
<jibel> upgrades are also tested automatically using the auto-upgrade-tester
<jibel> results are here https://jenkins.qa.ubuntu.com/view/Precise/job/precise-upgrade/
<Daviey> jibel: is that based on what mvo used to do, or something fresh?
<jibel> we are running ubuntu, ubuntu-server and a selection of task on both amd64 and i386
<jibel> Daviey, yes it is
<Daviey> ta
<jibel> we are currently testing from latest stable to the dev release
<jibel> and we'll add LTS->LTS testing after A1
<skaet> :)
<Riddell> jibel: could Kubuntu be added to that and the iso tester?
<jibel> Riddell, we can provide the instructions if you want to set up the infrastructure for Kubuntu
<Riddell> ok
 * skaet moving on to round table now 
<skaet> [TOPIC] Edubuntu Q&A - stgraber
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Edubuntu Q&A - stgraber
<stgraber> hey again!
<stgraber> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2011-November/000506.html
<stgraber> I don't think we have any question at this point. I'll test Edubuntu this weekend and upload fixes for anything that's not too risky to fix for alpha-1
<skaet> Thanks stgraber!    glad you have images again.   Any concerns for next week's images?
<stgraber> currently my concerns are: will it boot, then will it install and then will it still boot :)
<stgraber> I'll know more on Monday
<skaet> Thanks.  :)
<cjwatson> haha
<cjwatson> I should frame that and put it on my wall
<stgraber> :)
 * skaet not seeing any hands,  moving on.
<skaet> [TOPIC] Security team Q&A - mdeslaur
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Security team Q&A - mdeslaur
<mdeslaur> hi!
<mdeslaur> [LINK] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2011-November/000501.html
<mdeslaur> business as usual, work items are set in stone
<mdeslaur> we'll probably be uploading the final 2.7 version of apparmor, but that shouldn't impact anything
<mdeslaur> that's about it!
<Daviey> \o/
<Riddell> thanks to jdstrand for doing the kdeutils fix
<mdeslaur> yes! he's eating leftover turkey today as a reward for that hard work :)
 * skaet assumes ..,  and that Daviey is just happy and no questions...
<mdeslaur> ..
<skaet> Thanks mdeslaur!
<mdeslaur> thanks!
<skaet> [TOPIC] Kernel team Q&A - apw
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Kernel team Q&A - apw
<apw> [LINK] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2011-November/000494.html
<apw> All of out blueprints are pretty much there now.
<apw> The expected rebase to 3.2-rc3 appeared yesterday and has already been uploaded.
<apw> I think thats it.
<apw> ..
<skaet> Thanks apw!    any worries about the new kernel for next week?
<apw> No i've been testing it for 24 hours on my kit here, even my day-to-day machine and its been rock solid
<skaet> sweet!  thanks!
<apw> much happier now we are on an official -rc
<apw> ..
<skaet> :)
<skaet> [TOPIC] Foundations team Q&A - cjwatson
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Foundations team Q&A - cjwatson
<cjwatson> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2011-November/000504.html
<cjwatson> bug 885654 has come up since that, I'm working on that now
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 885654 in ubiquity (Ubuntu Precise) "ubiquity crashed with KeyError in partman_edit_dialog(): 'method_choices'" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/885654
<cjwatson> and we'll need to rebuild installer images for the new kernel once it's finished building everywhere
<cjwatson> but other than that, no concerns for alpha-1 that I know of
<cjwatson> ..
<skaet> Thanks cjwatson!
 * skaet not seeing questions so moving on
<skaet> [TOPIC] Server team Q&A - Daviey
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Server team Q&A - Daviey
<Daviey> Hola!
<Daviey> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2011-November/000512.html
<Daviey> Current focussed bugs:
<Daviey> http://status.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ubuntu-server/release-bugs.html
<Daviey> Something that should be included is the mysql transition to 5.5, this is being driven by SpamapS.  Uf you have any questions or issues, he is the man of the moment.
<Daviey> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/transitions/libmysqlclient.html
<Daviey> ^^ Tracking it.
<Daviey> Thanks!
<Daviey> ..
<skaet> Thanks Daviey!
<skaet> [TOPIC] ARM team Q&A-  ogra_
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: ARM team Q&A-  ogra_
 * ogra_ waves
<ogra_> [link] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2011-November/000513.html
<ogra_> nothing to add here ...
<ogra_> ..
<skaet> thanks ogra_ !    will confirm the image set with you early next week for alpha 1.
<ogra_> hasnt changed since oneiric
<ogra_> ..
<skaet> thanks ogra_,  that's what I was hoping to hear.  :)
<ogra_> :)
<cjwatson> o/
<skaet> go cjwatson
<cjwatson> is the armel+omap4 image on http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/daily-live/current/ intended to stay there?  it isn't autobuilt, and IIRC it was a temporary experiment, but I didn't want to just nuke it without asking
<ogra_> cjwatson, nuke it for now, we found some issues with building it properly and were waiting for a new kernel
<cjwatson> are you intending to autobuild it in future then?  does it supersede the preinstalled image or will it be a new addition?
<ogra_> we dont inted to autobuild live (yet) if there are any arm live images they are all just for one time tests
<cjwatson> OK, then I suggest using CDIMAGE_NOPUBLISH=1 when building them and putting them manually into a custom directory
<ogra_> if we find that live installs faster than preinstalled resizes we might re-consider switching to live
<cjwatson> that way we don't get this kind of confusion
<ogra_> (which i highly doubt)
<cjwatson> I've nuked it, thanks
<ogra_> will do
<ogra_> ..
<skaet> [TOPIC] Linaro team Q&A - fabo
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Linaro team Q&A - fabo
<fabo> hi!
<fabo> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2011-November/000518.html
<fabo> mostly busy with our release. not much to add...
<fabo> ...
<skaet> Thanks fabo!  congrats on getting 11.11 out.  :)
<fabo> thks :)
<skaet> [TOPIC] Ubuntu One Team Q&A -  joshuahoover
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu One Team Q&A -  joshuahoover
 * skaet doesn't see him... moving on.
<skaet> [TOPIC] Desktop Team Q&A  - pitti
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Desktop Team Q&A  - pitti
<pitti> status is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/ReleaseStatus
<pitti> This morning I got a bit surprised by bug 893842, which was a silent major change, but I think we fixed the most important bits now. We need to watch out for/search for less visible cases of assuming "admin" still, though.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 893842 in policykit-1 (Ubuntu Precise) "Move "admin" group to "sudo"" [Critical,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/893842
<pitti> Aside from that, no current problems for A1, should be ready to go.
<pitti> Except for some oversizedness, but if we don't manage to sort that out, I figure it's not an A1 blocker.
<pitti> questions?
<pitti> ..
<skaet> Thanks pitti!  oversize not blocker for alpha1.
<pitti> it might just resolve itself, as we moved to rb now and removed mono
<pitti> but FTR
<Riddell> rb?
<ogra_> rhythmbox
<ogra_> ..
<skaet> tomboy moved since mono off the cd?
<Riddell> right
<pitti> skaet: it should; haven't gotten a daily build yet to verify
<skaet> pitti,  thanks.
<cjwatson> pitti: want one?
<cjwatson> no need to wait if it would be useful now (well, now + build time)
<skaet> :)
<pitti> cjwatson: well, I'll call it a week right after the meeting, so daily weekend builds are enough for me
 * scott-upstairs is afk for 30 secs
<skaet> [TOPIC] Desktop Experience Team Q&A - dbarth
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Desktop Experience Team Q&A - dbarth
<dbarth> hi
<dbarth> the status was posted on the ML and is also at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopExperienceTeam/ReleaseStatus
<cjwatson> pitti: ok
<dbarth> nothing much to add
<skaet> thanks dbarth!
<dbarth> do you have questions?
<dbarth> ..
<skaet> when will there be burndown charts available?
<Riddell> dbarth: myunity was uploaded to new queue, if anyone on your team objects to it do let the archive admins know
<dbarth> myunity?
 * scott-upstairs back
<Riddell> a unity settings tweaking application
<dbarth> skaet: i need to work on that for next week; mostly see how to have our bug pile being taken into account
<skaet> dbarth,  gotcha,  will get with you offline.
<skaet> [TOPIC] Kubuntu Team Q&A - Riddell
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Kubuntu Team Q&A - Riddell
<Riddell> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2011-November/000505.html
<Riddell> bug 893826 currently causing upgrade breakage
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 893826 in pkgbinarymangler (Ubuntu) "symlinked docs are different between architectures, depending on dpkg-deb package order" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/893826
<Riddell> ISOs oversized
<Riddell> ..
<skaet> Thanks Riddell!
<skaet> which images will you be trying to release with alpha 1?  (cd, dvd, alternate for i386, amd64 - is assumption right now)  Is there someone lined up to test arm images?   what about active?
<Riddell> kubuntu active doesn't exist yet
<cjwatson> o/
<Riddell> my arm machine is not with me, so I won't be able to test for alpha 1
<Riddell> cjwatson: hi
<cjwatson> Riddell: there's a bunch of stuff on http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/component-mismatches.txt which appears to be actually due to versioned dependencies from metapackages which aren't satisfied (e.g. kdegraphics Recommends: kdegraphics-mobipocket (>= 4:4.7.3), kdegraphics-mobipocket is at 4:4.7.1-0ubuntu2) - is that all just pending builds?
<cjwatson> if it's all Recommends it may not have been noticed
<ogra_> Riddell, GrueMaster can probably cover that for one alpha (we need to ask him though and he wont be back before monday)
<ogra_> ..
<Riddell> cjwatson: it's pending me finishing the merges which I'll do this afternoon
<cjwatson> OK
<cjwatson> I'll not demote that stuff :)
<skaet> Thanks ogra_ (/me holds off on removing them from the image list for A1)
<Riddell> cjwatson: it's untidy I agree, I'll have a think about if there's a way to stop the meta-kde update causing that
<skaet> [TOPIC] Ubuntu Studio Team Q&A - scott-upstairs
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Studio Team Q&A - scott-upstairs
<scott-upstairs> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2011-November/000515.html
<scott-upstairs> we've addressed a few bugs, including the dssi-vst ia32-libs issue i think
<scott-upstairs> and cjwatson has helped with the root-sudo issue as well that i think pitti mentioned
<scott-upstairs> and a question:  i was going to update the studio theme to the xubuntu theme, should i wait until after a1?
<scott-upstairs> ..
<skaet> Thanks scott-upstairs!  any changes to the specific images for A1, or same as oneiric?
<cjwatson> you have time if you do it by Monday or so, I think
<scott-upstairs> cjwatson, ack
<scott-upstairs> skaet, pretty much the same as oneiric really
<skaet> scott-upstairs, thanks!
<skaet> [TOPIC] Xubuntu Team Q&A - madnick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Xubuntu Team Q&A - madnick
<madnick> hi
<madnick> [LINK] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2011-November/000503.html
<madnick> We have blueprints for all of our roadmap items with an assignee.
<madnick> ..
<skaet> Thanks madnick!   re: testing
<skaet> ideally see how many of the manditory tests per milestone you can work through.
<madnick> okay :)
<skaet> Thanks.  Basically need to figure out if they are safe to ship or not,  and what to warn folks about.
<skaet> [TOPIC] Lubuntu Team Q&A - gilir
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Lubuntu Team Q&A - gilir
<gilir> hi :)
<gilir> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2011-November/000502.html
<gilir> nothing new, except we would like to add powerpc ISO to the list of tested ISO for a1
<cjwatson> that's just a matter of it being on the tracker
<gilir> yes
<gilir> ..
<skaet> Thanks gilir!
<cjwatson> though I suspect alternate powerpc won't work; see https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/kernel-team/2011-November/017979.html
<gilir> ah, I will ask people to look at this
<skaet> [TOPIC] MOTU Team Q&A - tumbleweed or Laney
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: MOTU Team Q&A - tumbleweed or Laney
 * tumbleweed waves
<skaet> :)
<tumbleweed> no mail from us, nothing crazy happening in MOTU
<tumbleweed> ..
<cjwatson> gilir: no need, patch is there, but I don't think it will make alpha-1 now
<skaet> thanks tumbleweed!
<skaet> [TOPIC] Any other business, comments questions: ?
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Any other business, comments questions: ?
 * skaet looks around for o/'s
<gilir> cjwatson, ok thanks :)
<skaet> Its a wrap then.  Thanks stgraber, mlegris, jibel, mdeslaur, apw, cjwatson, Daviey, ogra_, fabo, joshuahoover, pitti, dbarth, Riddell, madnick, scott-upstairs, gilir, tumbleweed.   Good meeting.  :)
<skaet> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Fri Nov 25 17:13:30 2011 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-11-25-16.00.moin.txt
<scott-upstairs> thank you
<mdeslaur> thanks skaet!
<ogra_> thanks skaet
<pitti> thanks everyone, have a nice weekend!
<skaet> you too pitti!
<highvoltage> thanks skaet and have a good weekend everyone!
<stgraber> thanks
<skaet> good weekend everyone!
<Ursinha> thanks skaet :)
<scott-upstairs> thanks again for your help, cjwatson :-)
<jibel> thanks skaet
<cjwatson> np
<ajmitch> right, ARB meeting time
<ajmitch> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Fri Nov 25 18:00:36 2011 UTC.  The chair is ajmitch. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
 * stgraber waves
 * highvoltage waves
<ajmitch> agenda is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AppReviewBoard/Agenda, we'll mostly just go over what's been going on these last few weeks
<ajmitch> firstly action items from last meeting - there was one for stgraber to check on packages being copied to the new release
 * ajmitch had done a basic check that there were no packages copied to the precise dist on extras.ubuntu.com
<stgraber> so I had to initialize Precise to get extras.u.c working, so apparently everything works as expected (nothing gets copied)
<ajmitch> ok, great
<ajmitch> glad to know it was simple :)
<ajmitch> #topic UDS session
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: UDS session
<ajmitch> just pulling up the blueprint link now
<ajmitch> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/community-p-app-review-board has the work items there, most of them refer to getting access to myapps.developer.ubuntu.com & to the review shifts
<wendar> does everyone have access now?
<ajmitch> stgraber: did jono hand over the list admin?
<highvoltage> next week is my first shift, I hope some of you will be available if I have questions
<highvoltage> (which I will)
<stgraber> ajmitch: no, I poked him again two days ago, no news yet...
<ajmitch> we have access but it's buggy & broken for accessing tarballs of apps copied from the non-ARB review parts
<wendar> highvoltage: yeah, I'm taking the weekly shifts as a good time to do my own queue watching
<stgraber> oh, and in person at UDS, though that didn't help apparently :)
<ajmitch> there's a LP bug open about the problems
<wendar> highvoltage: more fun to do together
<highvoltage> wendar: great :)
<ajmitch> bug 886366
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 886366 in Developer registration portal "Cannot download some arb apps during review" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/886366
<ajmitch> lfaraone: welcome, I just mentioned the bug you opened about not being able to access some arb apps
<wendar> ah, that's an odd one
<ajmitch> currently this bug is blocking reviewing of some apps, along with a few other problems which make the review page annoying
<wendar> achuni has been on top of these things, so submit a bug (or bugs)
<ajmitch> wendar: I'd like to hear from you how your shift went & then I'll get on to my issues with myapps :)
<wendar> stgraber and I won't get all the same issues, since we have overall admin privs as well as ARB reviewer privs
<wendar> first shift went well, it was nice to have some focused time
<wendar> so, I packaged 'crabhack'
<wendar> and was disappointed to discover at the end that there's a launcher bug in pyglet
<wendar> (the toolkit it's written in)
<wendar> otherwise, it's a nice little game
<wendar> it also needed some fixes to the upstream tarball, so I sent those back to the developer
<wendar> I have a couple of policy questions from other apps I reviewed
<wendar> TagPlayer depends on a Last.fm account. The software itself is FLOSS, but the Last.fm terms are proprietary (http://www.last.fm/api/tos).
<ajmitch> sure, I've got some as well
<lfaraone> wendar: we have last.fm applications in the archive, including the official client.
<ajmitch> afaik we have a few clients for proprietary services in main & universe
<highvoltage> like ubuntu one.
<lfaraone> See http://packages.debian.org/squeeze/last-exit and http://packages.debian.org/squeeze/lastfm
<ajmitch> highvoltage: last.fm is a bit more proprietary than even that, it limits what you can do with the data you get
<ajmitch> given the precedent of existing last.fm clients, I don't think it'll be a problem to include another app
<highvoltage> ajmitch: ah, that doesn't seem much different than accessing a non-free web page from a free browser, does it?
<lfaraone> ajmitch: right, but ftp-masters thinks the clients are DSFG-free.
<ajmitch> highvoltage: though a browser isn't limited to just those pages :)
<ajmitch> lfaraone: which is generally what counts - I think we follow the normal rules for what's allowed in extras
<ajmitch> wendar: any other problems that came up?
<wendar> ajmitch: that seems like a sensible ruling, we can put it in the notes for the meeting, and wider review
<wendar> All the Quickly apps are coming in with python-support dependencies (because Quickly sets them up that way). Should we manually fix those up (it's an easy fix), or let them go for Oneiric, since python-support is still in the archive (though deprecated).
 * ajmitch would rather fix them & be rid of python-support, but it means a little bit of extra work
<ajmitch> the quickly template should be fixed to use dh_python2 for precise
<lfaraone> ajmitch: +1
<wendar> I submitted a bug to Quickly yesterday
<ajmitch> great
<wendar> but, not a specific deadline
<wendar> ajmitch: you can note an action item for me to check with doko on when python-support will be removed from the archive
<ajmitch> #action wendar to check with doko on when python-support will be removed from the archive
<meetingology> ACTION: wendar to check with doko on when python-support will be removed from the archive
<wendar> (but, Quickly should migrate ASAP)
<ajmitch> aha, that works :)
<micahg> there are about 1k packages in oneiric using deprecated python-{support,central}
<ajmitch> micahg: ok, we'd love to not add to that number :)
<micahg> just saying, for oneiric, it probably doesn't matter, for precise, would be nice to drop entirely
<ajmitch> but I don't think it should be a blocker for getting packages in - it should only take a few minutes to change for a package done with quickly
<wendar> ajmitch: is it worth updating the packages before we put them in? It really is only a few minutes of work
 * ajmitch has his review session today & will try & mark a few apps for rejection, or at least asking for them to submit source :)
<ajmitch> wendar: if possible, then yes, I think it should be done
<wendar> ajmitch: will do that for the two I've encountered so far
<wendar> and, add in the review notes
<ajmitch> ok
<lfaraone> wendar: if its programmatically generated code, it should be easy to script the modification.
<ajmitch> do we have a place to leave notes about packages for other reviewers?
<wendar> lfaraone: for that, I'd rather spend the time patching Quickly itself
<wendar> lfaraone: rather than parsing and rewriting the output from Quickly
<wendar> lfaraone: (though, certainly possible)
<wendar> lfaraone: IIRC, Quickly has some features for "upgrade my project"
<lfaraone> nifty. might be worth looking in to.
<wendar> the other project I worked on is 4digits
<wendar> I discovered that it used to be in Debian, but was orphaned
<wendar> so, rather than repackaging for Extras, I revived the debian packaging, and submitted it to the DEbian Games Team
<wendar> with the upstream developer as the primary Debian maintainer
<wendar> that's been accepted now
<lfaraone> wendar: do you have a link to the bug you filed against quickly?
<ajmitch> great, that's probably a better option for a number of these packages
<wendar> so, will be flowing into Universe for Precise
<wendar> I'll followup with a Backport to Oneiric once it comes through the DEbian sync
<wendar> ajmitch: yes, I'm thinking about just doing that for crabhack too
<wendar> (the developer explicitly asked if we could help him get into debian)
<wendar> lfaraone: just a sec, pulling the link...
 * ajmitch still has to finish sponsoring an upload to debian for a former arb submission as well, once I patch the build system a little
<wendar> https://bugs.launchpad.net/python-distutils-extra/+bug/894582
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 894582 in python-distutils-extra "Python templates should use dh_python2" [Undecided,New]
<wendar> lfaraone: ah, didrocks reports the fix isn't in Quickly, but further upstream
<wendar> lfaraone: could be a fun weekend project
<lfaraone> hmmm.
<ajmitch> might only take a few min to fix there as well
<wendar> ajmitch: that's all from my review shift
<ajmitch> wendar: thanks
<lfaraone> #action lfaraone to look into fixing bug 894582
<meetingology> ACTION: lfaraone to look into fixing bug 894582
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 894582 in python-distutils-extra "Python templates should use dh_python2" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/894582
<ajmitch> just so everyone knows, we're not restricted to only reviewing in our shift :)
<lfaraone> wendar: if by "weekend" you mean "next weekend", not "this weekend", then sure. :)
<ajmitch> it'd be nice if people are looking at submissions as they come in
<highvoltage> ajmitch: I just haven't had time since UDS, but I'm sure I'll get into the swing of things
<ajmitch> this sort of relates to the 'health of the queue' item, which we can probably all agree is pretty poor still
<wendar> lfaraone: I meant "generic weekend, as in sometime when you've got a bit of free time and interest"
<lfaraone> wendar: works for me :)
<ajmitch> I've looked at a few submissions in my spare time recently, and noticed that quite a few of them just don't have source
<wendar> ajmitch: you can reply to those immediately, requesting the source
<wendar> ajmitch: no need to wait for a longer review
<ajmitch> Do we have published rules for rejection of packages, such as it needs to do something useful?
<wendar> I even have a fixed blurb of text for "please submit source code"
<ajmitch> wendar: right, I've been meaning to do that as I come across them, often I can't download the submission anyway due to the bug linked earlier
<ajmitch> I usually do some hunting for the upstream project & look for a source download there if there is one
<lfaraone> wendar: do we have things like https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Responses ?
<wendar> I'm collecting them here, but we could split out to a separate page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AppReviewBoard/Review
<ajmitch> https://myapps.developer.ubuntu.com/dev/apps/399/ is probably one that can be rejected if I can think of a polite way to say "Submission must be more than just boilerplate code"
<lfaraone> lolwut. I don't even.
<wendar> ajmitch: Our guidelines are on that same page, but they don't say anything about "useful".
<wendar> I wondered about Awesome Os too.
<ajmitch> it looks like someone submitted the output of 'quickly create', I didn't spot anything original in it
<lfaraone> I love the honest rationale.
 * ajmitch is just hunting for the bug now that mpt wrote
<wendar> I'm torn between "it doesn't do anything", and "well, it's just a silly app, like you'd find on Android, maybe it doesn't need to do anything"
<ajmitch> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntudeveloperportal/+bug/873443
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 873443 in Ubuntu App Developer site "No published rules for rejecting applications" [Undecided,New]
<wendar> it certainly won't make its way into Debian or main/universe
<lfaraone> wendar: Of course not. But we should have some sort of rule "somebody somewhere besides the author must find this useful"
<wendar> probably won't even continue from Oneiric to Precise
<ajmitch> wendar: silly app, but it really doesn't look like an original creation beyond running quickly
<ajmitch> I don't think we should set the bar that low
<lfaraone> ajmitch: see "long tail" in http://kitenet.net/~joey/blog/entry/the_popcon_problem/
<wendar> so, proposed addition to our review guidelines
<ajmitch> otherwise we may as well accept the hello world 'app' that was used for testing :)
<wendar> under "Content"
<wendar> "App should be useful or interesting to a general audience"
<wendar> not quite right
<lfaraone> http://pad.ubuntu.com/arb-guidelines
<ajmitch> wendar: we also had mention somewhere of submissions needing to be applications instead of data or documentation
<ajmitch> which is important because I saw a recent submission of fonts
<ajmitch> https://myapps.developer.ubuntu.com/dev/apps/196/
<ajmitch> right, I found the original reference to it: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PostReleaseApps/Process
<ajmitch> sorry to mess up the pad, I just pasted in the relevant section
<lfaraone> no worries.
<wendar> ajmitch: ah, I was just going to ask if you got that from https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ExtensionRepositoryPolicy
<lfaraone> do we need content to be DFSG-free / under a free license?
<wendar> ajmitch: but then, the second page started from the PostReleaseApps process
<lfaraone> Like if I make a game with a non-free soundtrack, or propreitary maps. That's totally cool (explicitly allowed in the GPL FAQ!) but not suitable for main or universe, maybe.
<ajmitch> wendar: there are a few too many wiki pages on this
<wendar> lfaraone: yes, the ARB only reviews fully DFSG-free content
<wendar> ajmitch: yes
<lfaraone> ajmitch: we need to have a full-time wiki gardener.
<wendar> ajmitch: the PostReleaseApps pages are deprecated, I should add a note
 * ajmitch isn't volunteering for that role, fwiw :)
<coolbhavi> hello all! I'm sorry I came late to the meeting
<ajmitch> coolbhavi: glad you could join us, we're still going :)
<wendar> ajmitch: but, they also include content that isn't anywhere else yet (though, it's also partially out-of-date)
<coolbhavi> :)
<ajmitch> wendar: as long as it doesn't conflict with what we do now it should be ok to refer to
<wendar> How about linking to the ExtensionRepositoryPolicy from ours, but giving easier short explanations?
<wendar> I like "Apps should not be forks of existing applications in the archive."
<ajmitch> sounds fair
<wendar> it's quick and easy to understand
<coolbhavi> wendar, sounds good +1 here :)
<lfaraone> wendar: which also covers things which are obviously just GNU hello.
<lfaraone> wendar: would it be sensible also to say "should not be a clone of something in the archive"?
<lfaraone> wendar: like, if I pull a gnote and implement another application feature-for-feature, etc.
<wendar> depends on what clone means
<ajmitch> 'useful or interesting to a general audience' is suitably vague that it gives us some discretion as to what to let in
<wendar> we'd certainly allow two independent implementations of, say a Last.fm client
<wendar> but, a straight copy-and-resubmit we wouldn't
<ajmitch> there are some specialised applications that most people wouldn't use but would still be useful to some, I think we would let those through
<coolbhavi> lfaraone, fair enough like we give scope for a wider variety of apps by saying that it shouldnt be an exact clone but as wendar said clone should have an unambiguous meaning
<lfaraone> hmmm.
<lfaraone> Okay, scratch that. I was trying to come up with a case that would make this rule relevant and it ended up sounding much too contrived.
<ajmitch> about that tools & libraries one I just added - we don't really want apps bundling libraries, how far should we go in disallowing it?
 * lfaraone will have to duck out.
<ajmitch> lfaraone: thanks for being here
<lfaraone> ajmitch: you should not bundle a library already packaged.
 * highvoltage too in a minute or so)
<ajmitch> the problem is when a package needs a compiler which isn't in ubuntu :)
<ajmitch> ok we should probably take this one to the list then
<lfaraone> ajmitch: like, something for a language we don't support, or just a newer version of an exsiting lang?
<ajmitch> lfaraone: new language, a couple are built with some obscure BASIC dialect
<wendar> ajmitch: it's a good one to add to the list
<ajmitch> they're submissions in the queue at the moment
<lfaraone> wendar: "must use existing languages"?
<ajmitch> wendar: I'm just not sure where to draw the line on libraries, since some can be large
<ajmitch> a definite +1 on not bundling new versions of boost or Qt for example
<coolbhavi> here too I ve seen some of them being sizeable
<highvoltage> I can guess the answer to this, but I'd just like to be 100% sure, may an ARB app depend on something in the -backports repository?
<ajmitch> highvoltage: we haven't discussed that afaik, I'd vote yes though
<highvoltage> ajmitch: it sounds like it could potentially be a sane way to deal with things like new versions of qt
<wendar> there's a technical problem at the moment, I don't think an Extras package has any way to automatically pull something from backports
<coolbhavi> highvoltage, yes, but if thats optional, then a +1 here
<ajmitch> right, though it's usually tricky to backport libraries because all reverse (build-)depends need to be tested with it
<wendar> hmmm... even if it could, that's potentially dangerous, updating a system library to a backports version
<ajmitch> wendar: afaik it should technically work if there's a versioned dependency satisfied only by backports, as long as both extras & backports are kept enabled
<highvoltage> I lack a little history, has the topic of appimages ever come up before?
<wendar> like, what if the app depends on a newer version of Qt, so pulls it in from backports, and the version of Unity the user is running breaks on the newer version of Qt?
<ajmitch> wendar: then that version of Qt wouldn't be allowed into backports
<wendar> backports tests "build, install, run", but doesn't test that it works with all dependencies
<wendar> i.e. they don't test every package in the archive that uses the backported package
<ajmitch> they should, people are asked to do that when submitting a backport request
<ajmitch> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuBackports#How_to_request_new_packages has the rules for libraries
<wendar> "A backport should never cause any other package on the system to break"
<wendar> that's good
<wendar> but also "New versions of libraries are strongly discouraged"
<ajmitch> it's not a complete cowboy operation ;)
<wendar> which makes sense
<wendar> but, also means it's not very useful for the scenario where an app needs a new version of a library
<ajmitch> right, but there's no easy way to handle that without shipping a private copy of a system library
<wendar> because, if the changes between versions are so minimal that they have no disruptions
<wendar> then the ARB app will likely still support the old and new versions simultaneously
<wendar> but, in general, it seems fine to allow backports, if we can solve the problem of pulling in backports as a dependency
<ajmitch> I don't know of a good way to test it, but I think the biggest problem is in building the package rather than installing on a user's system
<wendar> for example, a new library that isn't in Oneiric, but is in Precise and gets backported to Oneiric, should be no problem
<wendar> ajmitch: As I understand it, you have to take a manual step to enable backports for a specific package
<ajmitch> PPAs can depend on backports, I just checked on LP
<wendar> ajmitch: so, how would the Extras package pull in the backports package?
<wendar> I think this is a question for the backports team
<ajmitch> wendar: afaik it's a PPA change rather than per-package - if apt can satisfy the dependency only by backports it will pull in the package
<wendar> does anyone want to volunteer to chat with them before next meeting?
<ajmitch> sure, I will
<wendar> ajmitch: that part isn't a problem, backports is enabled by default in Oneiric
<wendar> ajmitch: but, it's enabled by default with no packages turned on
<wendar> ajmitch: cool, thanks!
<ajmitch> wendar: yep, that's set in the Release file as NotAutomatic: Yes
<ajmitch> I need to check on the other flag that I know of for that
<ajmitch> #action ajmitch to ask about ARB apps depending on backported packages
<meetingology> ACTION: ajmitch to ask about ARB apps depending on backported packages
<wendar> yeah, specifically "is there a way to specify the backports version of X in the Depends line of a package"
<wendar> or Build-Depends
<ajmitch> we should probably wrap up this meeting soon
<ajmitch> a simple versioned (Build-)Depends should cover it
<ajmitch> it's the same situation in debian for experimental, I saw a discussion on it a couple of days ago
<wendar> I'll copy our Content requirements from the etherpad into the wiki page
<ajmitch> thanks
<ajmitch> AOB?
<ajmitch> oh I almost forgot
<wendar> as an FYI, Anthony Lenton is working now on making our MyApps queue public
<wendar> (public read-only)
<ajmitch> is it worth having a meeting next month, since it falls between christmas & new year?
<wendar> bad timing
<wendar> but, I'd hate to go 2 months between
<ajmitch> yeah, I may be around but I don't know who else may be
<wendar> could we do say 2 weeks from now
<highvoltage> I can be there.
<wendar> and mid january?
<coolbhavi> yes why not have it 2 weeks from now and mid jan? +1
<ajmitch> wendar: when do you fly out for LCA?
<wendar> ajmitch: probably saturday (so the day after that mid-jan meeting)
<ajmitch> wendar: remember that it's saturday here for me now
<coolbhavi> me too
<wendar> aye, that's why I added the clarification
<coolbhavi> early morning 1 am here
<wendar> (my saturday, not your saturday)
<ajmitch> wendar: ah right :)
<wendar> I'll be around and free that Friday between Xmas and New Year too
<ajmitch> ok, 2 weeks from now is 9th december, 18:00 UTC
<ajmitch> who volunteers to be chair?
<ajmitch> wendar: I'll miss the january meeting just because I get to leave ballarat at about 7AM to get to the airport
<wendar> that's the middle of a Review shift, so should work out (the 9th, I mean)
<ajmitch> ok
<wendar> ajmitch: okay, we can decide at Dec 9th if it's worth a mid-Jan meeting
<ajmitch> highvoltage: want to chair the next one? :)
<stgraber> ajmitch: I guess I can chair. We may also want to switch to having the next chair be the next one in alphabetical order (that's how the DMB and TB do it now and saves quite a bit of time)
<ajmitch> stgraber: ok, sounds good
<ajmitch> with that, I guess we're done, unless anyone has something to add
<wendar> thanks ajmitch!
<ajmitch> thanks everyone, sorry it took so long :)
<ajmitch> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Fri Nov 25 19:31:54 2011 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-11-25-18.00.moin.txt
<highvoltage> ajmitch: I guess since it's my ARB day, I might as well :)
<ajmitch> highvoltage: you missed out sorry, stgraber volunteered
<highvoltage> ah, no complaints :)
<ajmitch> I didn't think you'd mind too much
<coolbhavi> thanks! and good night everyone :)
<highvoltage> I never complain if I have less work to do
<highvoltage> night coolbhavi
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-11-27
<WO0T> WOOT
<WO0T> WOOT
<WO0T> WOOT
<WO0T> WOOT
<WO0T> WOOT
<WO0T> WOOT
<WO0T> WOOT
<WO0T> WOOT
<WO0T> WOOT
<WO0T> WOOT
<WO0T> WOOT
<topyli> ircc meeting right? i have to take 5 min here, but i'm around
 * Unit193 
<Myrtti> interesting.
<jussi> o/
<Unit193> \o
<jussi> right, so who is here? topyli is I guess
<jussi> any other ircc'ers ??
<jussi> bueller? bueller? anyone?
<highvoltage> he's sick.
<jussi> highvoltage: haha
<jussi> anyways
<topyli> we don't seem to have quorum again
<jussi> lets go through items and if we need to get them to the ML
<jussi> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Sun Nov 27 18:08:01 2011 UTC.  The chair is jussi. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<jussi> #topic Bugs
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Bugs
<jussi> #meetingtopic Bugs
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Bugs Meeting | Current topic:  Bugs
<jussi> better :)
<jussi> So, bug788503
<jussi> So, bug 788503
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 788503 in ubuntu-community "IRC Guidelines too #ubuntu centric" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/788503
<jussi> The ether pad is still up, we havent had much feedback
<jussi> I guess we will give it a little more time and advertisement
<jussi> topyli: sound good?
<topyli> in general, we have more bugs than in the past, due to pushing issues to launchpad. it's good but i'm not sure if the amount of comments is any more useful than we used to get privately. it is an advertising problem i suppose
<jussi> bug 883119 then.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 883119 in ubuntu-community "Issues needlessly in the IRC Council's private issue tracker" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/883119
<jussi> Personally I think we can close this one
<topyli> we are fixing it
<jussi> its pretty obvious what we have been doing.
<jussi> (or at least in progress).
<topyli> i say close
<jussi> If any of the people attending this meeting have an opinion, please dont be shy
<topyli> close it, people will reopen if needed
<jussi> ok
<jussi> #action topyli to close bug 883119
<meetingology> ACTION: topyli to close bug 883119
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 883119 in ubuntu-community "Issues needlessly in the IRC Council's private issue tracker" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/883119
<topyli> i wouldn't like to touch the eir thing or the ops process right now, i'd leave them to the next council
<jussi> bug 884617
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 884617 in DOLFIN "Problems passing PyTrilinos objects to DOLFIN matrix/vector" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/884617
<jussi> err
<jussi> Im dyslexic
<jussi> bug 884671
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 884671 in ubuntu-community "Ubuntu IRC operator recruitment is slow and ungainly" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/884671
<jussi> This bug has had a bit of action - has anyone here got any thoughts?
<topyli> jussi: the action is done. "fix released"
<jussi> right.
<topyli> i do agree that when the council sees a good op, they should be able to make one on the spot. the current process exists because we can't possibly be familiar with everyone
<jussi> Yes, I agree. I think this needs to be taken to the rest of the ircc for a vote.
<topyli> it's a policy change and needs a vote
<jussi> #action topyli to email ircc list for votes on this.
<meetingology> ACTION: topyli to email ircc list for votes on this.
<jussi> bug 887544
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 887544 in ubuntu-community "No measurable data on ban resolving process in #ubuntu-ops" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/887544
<topyli> well. this is a long-standing item i've been planning to do
<jussi> I think this is just something you are going to do isnt it, topyli
<topyli> yeah
<jussi> lets leave it as it is then for now
<jussi> bug 892501
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 892501 in ubuntu-community "Floodbots - need a re-write to be under ubuntu operator team control" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/892501
<topyli> this is difficult. LjL is great and all, but having such powers invested in proprietary bots controlled by a single person is not very nice
<topyli> i have talked to him, and i think we'll resolve it eventually
<jussi> I think this might be one to leave for when there is a full council
<topyli> yeah, and he should be around too
<jussi> I think bug 892500 is similar
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 892500 in ubuntu-community "eir is still not fit for purpose in #ubuntu" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/892500
<topyli> i don't have much to say about that, i disagree and would say it's useful. if we need to tweak it, let's
<jussi> topyli: let's ?
<topyli> if we need to tweak it, let's do so :)
<jussi> ok
<jussi> #meetingtopic Review last meetings action items
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Review last meetings action items Meeting | Current topic:  Bugs
<jussi> topyli: got these handy?
<topyli> need to find from email, since we haven't done the team report
<jussi> oh :/
<jussi> right, pangolin - you about?
<topyli> nhandler_ was supposed to do it. elky eventually sent a summary to the mailing list, but apparently she didn't copy it to the wiki
<jussi> :(
<topyli> there are two action items not done
<jussi> which were?
<topyli> i haven't sent out the lubuntu ops call
<jussi> oh, yes, we were doing htat.
<topyli> you and i have the irc guidelines review in progress, but that's in progress and needs help
<jussi> Ok, so we need to finish that email and send it
<jussi> is pangolin around?
<topyli> jussi: let's just note those, and i'll promise to do the lubuntu thing asap. i'll draft it and have it reviewed by you
<jussi> sure
<jussi> As for pangolins issue, I see nothing on the background page about it, so its hard to be sure what he is after
<topyli> it should be done carefully so the current people don't think we're "replacing" their current staff
<jussi> yes
<LjL> i am here
<topyli> i can't say anything on pangolin's item. as he's not here, we should leave it
<topyli> LjL: yay!
<jussi> hi LjL :)
<topyli> LjL: we're not able to talk about the bots though, we're too few again
<topyli> well we can talk, but not make any decisions
<jussi> we can talk about it - just decisions have to go else..
<topyli> LjL: iirc you wanted some time with this, to see what you want to do
<LjL> well i can say what my stance is. the floodbots aren't nearly good enough to be worth open sourcing for the sake of "giving them to the developer community". so i'd just be open sourcing them to make you folks happy. well, that's not going to happen at least until a new council is in place and, plainly stated, i see how much i'm in tune with its members
<jussi> LjL: are you willing to give a certain amount of time that you promise you wont remove them before that time you make hte decision?
<LjL> jussi: yes, but not a long time. since i see that calls are being made to rewrite them, then i'm sure it won't be a problem to have them accomplished ;) so i guess i will give a month or so after i tell everyone i'm going to retire them. which may or may not happen, really, i'm not saying it will.
<topyli> we're basically leaving this for the next council then
<jussi> LjL: right, but they will you say, be around until the next council appears?
<LjL> jussi: yes
<jussi> ok, excellent.
<topyli> thanks LjL
<jussi> anything else we need to talk about at this meeting? anyone else got any issues they would like to bring up?
<topyli> if not, i have a date in 20 minutes :)
<LjL> some things got on my nerves and i wanted to remove them, but i was then asked nicely to keep them as a favor and that is enough. they will not be removed in the course of a day again, not while this council is in place anyway. just, if people are planning to work on a rewrite, but all means let them. the floodbots are pretty horrible code anyway.
<AlanBell> what are the various dates for the reelection process?
<jussi> LjL: thanks a lot - it really helps.
<jussi> AlanBell: the current team expires on the 21st
<topyli> iirc you must nominate by 14th, but i may be wrong
<AlanBell> nominations due by when?
<AlanBell> voting for a week from the 14th then is it?
<topyli> i think we have voted for a week in the past
<jussi> Hrm, It appears I didnt put anything on the mail about nominations. Ill send a mail out about it.
<jussi> Ie. dates
<topyli> we should ask for clarification on this
<jussi> yes, Ill double check with the cc
<topyli> then of course spam the planet, the mailing list, and the washington post
<jussi> yes, of course
<jussi> thanks AlanBell for picking htat up
<AlanBell> no problem :)
<jussi> right. anything else?
<AlanBell> plus clarify who is running the vote and the finishing method selected
<jussi> yes ++
<topyli> yeah
<LjL> yes, topyli's haircut? i have raised that concern in the survey, and it's unsettling that it's not being addressed
<jussi> LjL: sorry, thats out of our hands. escalate it
<topyli> LjL: i have noted the opinion, and ignored appropriately!
<LjL> topyli: (blame funkyhat by the way :P)
<topyli> (yes i actually did read everything :)
<jussi> LjL: its inappropriate for a hippie to have short neat hair!
<jussi> anyway, last call or Im doing #endmeeting
<topyli> LjL: i chose to just read the data, not where it's from
<jussi> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Sun Nov 27 18:50:07 2011 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-11-27-18.08.moin.txt
<jussi> thanks everyone :)
<topyli> alright, thanks, i have to run now
<Unit193> Great!
<jussi> AlanBell: also, meetingologydid somethign strange to the topic
<jussi> [20:26:34] * meetingology has changed topic for #ubuntu-meeting to: "Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Review last meetings action items Meeting | Current topic:  Bugs"
<jussi> that was after : [20:26:34] <jussi> #meetingtopic Review last meetings action items
<jussi> anyway, Im also off. laters
<AlanBell> jussi: yeah, because you used #meetingtopic, which sets the overall meeting name, like "#meetingtopic ircc meeting"
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-11-19
<bdrung> !dmb-ping
<ubottu> bdrung, cody-somerville, Laney, micahg, barry, tumbleweed, stgraber: DMB ping
<tumbleweed> hi
<tumbleweed> warning, I'm in the middle of a "planned" outage at work, so my attention is divided
<bdrung> anyone else? we are not enough even with Laney
 * stgraber waves
<stgraber> my phone thinks the meeting is in an hour though
<bdrung> DST?
<stgraber> and it's wrong ;)
<stgraber> yeah, apparently my calendar event was on some weird timezone instead of UTC
<tumbleweed> who owns the event?
<tumbleweed> (do we know?)
<bdrung> barry
<bdrung> tumbleweed: or you if we skip unavailable members
<tumbleweed> I meant the fridge calendar event. The person who put it there can change its timezone
<bdrung> ups. dunno
<tumbleweed> bdrung: aren't you the chair after barry?
<tumbleweed> I thought we went in the order of https://launchpad.net/~developer-membership-board/+members
<bdrung> tumbleweed: i was chair when stgraber wasn't attending
<bdrung> so i will be skipped once
<tumbleweed> wow, I am next then
<stgraber> congratulations :)
<tumbleweed> ok, so shall we get this rolling, we're pretty late already
<wookey> :-)
<tumbleweed> #startmeeting Developer Membership Board
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Nov 19 14:14:59 2012 UTC.  The chair is tumbleweed. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Developer Membership Board Meeting | Current topic:
<tumbleweed> #topic Review of previous action items
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Developer Membership Board Meeting | Current topic:  Review of previous action items
<tumbleweed> stgraber: is the wiki up to date, there?
<tumbleweed> they all belong to micahg, as usual:
<tumbleweed>     micahg to document the zentyal packageset
<tumbleweed>     micahg to ask docs people if they want to apply for a packageset
<stgraber> tumbleweed: yep
<tumbleweed> so, moving on
<tumbleweed> #topic Core Developer Application for Wookey
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Developer Membership Board Meeting | Current topic:  Core Developer Application for Wookey
<tumbleweed> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Wookey/DeveloperApplication
<tumbleweed> wookey: would you care to introduce your application?
<wookey> erm, yes.
<wookey> I've been a DD for over a decade, and recently have been doing some Ubuntu work as side-effect of being in Linaro
<wookey> I've doing things that affect $everything: cross-building, and multiarch
<wookey> And when debian is frozen it makes sense to upload things to ubuntu directly
<wookey> I've been filing patches for some time now and have been encouraged to apply for actual membership so I can do stuff without having to pester others for Ubuntu uploads
<wookey> Obviously I can do Debian uploads as required already
<wookey> that's the core of it
<tumbleweed> thanks
<tumbleweed> questions for wookey?
<wookey> currently I'm doing the arm64 bootstrap, mostly in Ubuntu because the multiarch state is much more advanced here
<barry> sorry folks, system problems this morning :(
<wookey> look - shiny results: http://people.linaro.org/~wookey/buildd/quantal-arm64/sbuild-ma/status-bootstrap.html
<tumbleweed> I assume everyone is still busy re-reading your appplication (or twiddling their thumbs or something)
<tumbleweed> wookey: are you subscribed to ubuntu-devel-announce?
<wookey> Or there are no questions :-)
<wookey> tumbleweed: I don't think so
<wookey> Easy enough to fix
<xnox> wookey: did any of ubuntu / lp systems require two names?
<bdrung> i just checked xdeb. the current situation looks good.
<tumbleweed> thanks, it's where freezes etc are announced
<wookey> xnox: not that I recall - pleasingly little agravation on that front
<xnox> wookey: ok cool.
<wookey> yes xdeb is in maintenance mode now really
<xnox> (for context http://wookware.org/name.html )
<wookey> multiarch is the one true way forward
<wookey> OK. subscribed to ubuntu-devel-announce
<barry> wookey: you have experience in developing software for debian, ubuntu, and linaro.  how would you compare the workflows, and what do you think would be the 1-3 most important things to do to improve developing and sharing s/w across all three communities?
<wookey> The presuambly tell me when we enter 'stopped syncing' and 'feature freeze' etc?
<wookey> Hmm. potentially long-answer question :-)
<wookey> I was surprsied how much difference there is in internal process between debian and Ubuntu.
<barry> wookey: agreed
<wookey> That part is almost completely different in many ways
<wookey> Linaro was effectively just camping on ubuntu processes/machinery for 1st two years, but is now trying to separate itself
<wookey> I think the sharing part is much more about culture than process
<wookey> I pretty-much ignored Ubuntu for years, probably like many DDs as 'just another derivative' and not really anything I had to take much notice of beyond getting occaisional patch back
<wookey> And that was just habit.
<bdrung> what changed then?
<wookey> BUt once I had a reason to use it I found some thing easier to get done in Ubuntu than debian, due to very-fast patch turnaround
<wookey> I got a job where a) official desktop was Ubuntu (ARM), and images being produced were ubuntu (linaro)
<wookey> Now that I understand the Ubuntu processes I view Debian and Ubuntu as essentially 'the same thing'
<wookey> And just do work fixes in both as much as possible, with a bias to doing it in Debian first as that's less work all round
<wookey> I think zak has done a great job of getting Debian and Ubuntu to ignore each other less
<barry> wookey: quick question: when you work on ubuntu packages, do you generally apt-get source or bzr branch?
<wookey> So I guess the answer to the question is 'nurture the projects that encourage upstreaming and cross-distro work'
<wookey> I'm old-fashion - I apt-get source
<wookey> I was just reading the merging page and thing that maybe I should look at useing that work-flow
<wookey> thinking
<wookey> Because it'll be easier to keep moving patches forward that aren't fully upstremaed yet.
<barry> wookey: cool, thanks for your answers (there's no right or wrong answer, i am just curious :)
<stgraber> wookey: So, let's say you want to get mythtv into precise-updates on the 15th of January 2013 for a fix that's just been published upstream. What would you do and what can you do?
<wookey> It is hard work keeping track of patches in quantal/raring/unstable/experiemntal
<wookey> I'd go read the ubuntu developer docs, and then probably ask someone to check
<wookey> One good thing about ubuntu is that process is _much_ better documented than debian
<stgraber> how much do you currently know about the SRU process? did you do any SRU?
<wookey> I have done a couple of SRUs yes
<tumbleweed> after this question is complete, we'll go to a vote
<stgraber> ok, so if you get a fix into Debian experimental that you want into precise-updates, where should you upload that fix?
<wookey> sorry someon asking questions here
<wookey> I was wondering today whether Ubuntu ever pulls from experiemntal. The docs say only from testing or unstable
<wookey> So I presume you never do that.
<stgraber> well, you can manually sync from experimental, syncpackage lets you do that, we just don't do it automatically
<stgraber> so let's say you have the new version into raring (as it's where it needs to land first anyway), where do you go from there to get it into precise-updates?
<bdrung> we often sync from experimental when debian is in freeze
<wookey> OK, so I guess I'd file an SRU requesting tosync/merge the version from experiemental
<stgraber> tumbleweed: I guess we're out of time, we probably should vote now
<tumbleweed> yeah
<wookey> I don't know. I'd ask #release on IRC
<tumbleweed> #voters stgraber barry tumbleweed bdrung Laney
<meetingology> Current voters: Laney barry bdrung stgraber tumbleweed
<tumbleweed> #vote grant wookey core-dev rights?
<meetingology> Please vote on: grant wookey core-dev rights?
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<stgraber> +0 [Not satisfied regarding the knowledge of Ubuntu processes but on the other hand, I'm sure wookey will ask before doing anything he doesn't know]
<meetingology> +0 [Not satisfied regarding the knowledge of Ubuntu processes but on the other hand, I'm sure wookey will ask before doing anything he doesn't know] received from stgraber
<barry> +0 [more familiarity w/ubuntu process would be good, but i think by asking lots of question for bits you don't know, you'll be okay]
<meetingology> +0 [more familiarity w/ubuntu process would be good, but i think by asking lots of question for bits you don't know, you'll be okay] received from barry
<tumbleweed> +1 [ I'm also concerned about the ubuntu process knowledge, I am fairly confident that this wouldn't be dangerous to the project, but would expect more from a core-dev ]
<meetingology> +1 [ I'm also concerned about the ubuntu process knowledge, I am fairly confident that this wouldn't be dangerous to the project, but would expect more from a core-dev ] received from tumbleweed
<tumbleweed> err that was supposed to be +0, edting ftl
<tumbleweed> +0
<meetingology> +0 received from tumbleweed
<tumbleweed> bdrung: ?
<bdrung> +0 [ same option as the other voters ]
<meetingology> +0 [ same option as the other voters ] received from bdrung
<tumbleweed> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: grant wookey core-dev rights?
<meetingology> Votes for:0 Votes against:0 Abstentions:4
<meetingology> Deadlock, casting vote may be used
<tumbleweed> pish, meetingology
<tumbleweed> wookey: I'm sorry we couldn't accept your application right now. I suggest getting a little more experience with the procedures around SRUs and freezes
<wookey> yeah. fair enough. It wasn;t me that said I was ready :-)
<tumbleweed> hope to see you again soon
<wookey> I've usually dealing with unstable /letest, so have not worried about SRUs much
<tumbleweed> #topic Dmitry Shachnev's PPU application for retext and unity-mail
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Developer Membership Board Meeting | Current topic:  Dmitry Shachnev's PPU application for retext and unity-mail
<mitya57> Hi barry, bdrung, stgraber, tumbleweed!
<barry> hi mitya57
<tumbleweed> mitya57: hi, we're able to run over time a little
<stgraber> wookey: I have no doubt that you are ready from a technical point of view but the freezes and SRU processes are important when contributing to the Ubuntu project so I hope to see you apply again soon
<tumbleweed> so, we should be able to process your application
<tumbleweed> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DmitryShachnev/PPUApplication
<tumbleweed> mitya57: please introduce yourself and your application
<mitya57> OK
<mitya57> I'm developer of ReText editor and some other smaller projects, usually written in Python
<mitya57> In Ubuntu, I'm involved with my apps, their dependencies, and some python stuff
<mitya57> Last week I was, for example, adding/fixing dep-8 tests for pygments, python-markdown and nose
<mitya57> Earlier this cycle I was involved with Python 3.3 transition of sphinx/python-docutils
<mitya57> I'm also Ubuntu packaging guide contributor and do some other random things
<mitya57> ... and I'm also Debian maintainer (since this spring) and member of some teams there (Python + JavaScript)
<mitya57> I would like to start with these two packages because these are my "oldest" ones and I've done more uploads for them than for anything else
<tumbleweed> I saw very little discussion of your Debian work on your application. For reference - http://qa.debian.org/developer.php?login=Dmitry%20Shachnev
<mitya57> tumbleweed, in fact, I'm having 4 unsponsored items in Debian right now, so that list will grow soon
<mitya57> (I hope)
<tumbleweed> :)
<tumbleweed> any questions for mitya57?
<bdrung> mitya57: why is unity-mail a native package?
<mitya57> bdrung, because it was written exclusively for Ubuntu and I maintain packaging in the same branch as source code
<bdrung> mitya57: maybe one day unity can be deployed on other systems than Ubuntu (e.g. Debian). will it be still good to have it as native package?
<mitya57> bdrung, I think it is possible to change format in future
<mitya57> but right now I don't see any need
 * Laney phases in
<mitya57> Hi Laney
<barry> mitya57: how painful has it been working with quilt in udd branches?
<bdrung> barry: very painful (that's what i remember from my last try)
<mitya57> barry: for example, patches are stored applied by default but when I create a new patch, it doesn't get applied by default
<barry> mitya57: i know ;}
<mitya57> and also there are some packages whose maintainers don't care about making them build twice in a row,
<mitya57> so when you clone such a package from udd it won't build
<barry> mitya57: perhaps the build tools should help enforce that?
<mitya57> "nose" is my recent example
<mitya57> barry, of course, but I meant it's not perfect _by default_
<barry> mitya57: in the meantime, we could improve the docs i suppose.  i can't recall anywhere where this issue is even discussed (though it comes up in sponsor reviews)
<tumbleweed> mitya57: where you paying attention earlier, and did you subscribe to ubuntu-devel-announce?
<mitya57> tumbleweed: I am subscribed
<mitya57> "where" â you mean Debian vs Ubuntu?
<mitya57> If so, Ubuntu of course :)
<tumbleweed> *were
 * tumbleweed is tired, long day of fighting fires at work
<tumbleweed> mitya57: so, when do we expect you to come back with a MOTU application?
<mitya57> tumbleweed, If I were writing my application today, I would apply for MOTU. But I was writing it in September (and today was the first slot suitable for me)...
<mitya57> ... so I decided to leave it as is.
<tumbleweed> it'd be nice to see work on a wider range of packages, for that
<mitya57> tumbleweed, that's in progress :)
<tumbleweed> as a DM, I assume you're already familiar with the upload process?
<mitya57> Yes, I am. The only difference is that our uploads are source-only, right?
<tumbleweed> yup
<tumbleweed> and you've the Ubuntu tools for syncing, finding merges you need to do, etc?
<tumbleweed> you've *seen*
<mitya57> yes, I have seen that
<tumbleweed> bdrung: you have a question?
<bdrung> mitya57: How does it come that you do your work in Debian first?
<bdrung> (besides the Ubuntu-only unity-mail)
<mitya57> bdrung, I had read that the Debian is primary place to upload new packages to, so I went there...
<bdrung> good to see that we communicate it clearly :)
<mitya57> ah, you said "do", not "did"
<mitya57> The ideal workflow for me is getting a package uploaded to Debian, and then getting it synced
<bdrung> the tool syncpackage is handy for doing the sync
<mitya57> bdrung, I meant that when I said I was familiar with the tools
<tumbleweed> ok, looks like we're done with questions
<tumbleweed> #vote grant mitya57 PPU rights on retext and unity-mail?
<meetingology> Please vote on: grant mitya57 PPU rights on retext and unity-mail?
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<Laney> +1 looking forward to you coming back to apply for MOTU soon with a little more experience
<meetingology> +1 looking forward to you coming back to apply for MOTU soon with a little more experience received from Laney
<bdrung> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from bdrung
<barry> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from barry
<tumbleweed> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from tumbleweed
<tumbleweed> stgraber?
<stgraber> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from stgraber
<tumbleweed> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: grant mitya57 PPU rights on retext and unity-mail?
<meetingology> Votes for:5 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<bdrung> mitya57: btw, do you want to become an uploader (in Debian) of ubuntu-packaging-guide?
<tumbleweed> mitya57: welcome, we hope to see you back soon for MOTU rights
<tumbleweed> #topic any other business?
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Developer Membership Board Meeting | Current topic:  any other business?
<mitya57> bdrung, I won't be against that
<mitya57> \o/ thanks everybody!
<bdrung> mitya57: feel free to add yourself to the list in the bzr branch.
<tumbleweed> next chair: barry
<tumbleweed> backup: cody-somerville
<tumbleweed> anything else?
<bdrung> reducing the after-meeting-things-to-do list
<bdrung> can we reduce or automate the paperwork?
<tumbleweed> not trivially, that i can think of
<tumbleweed> looks like we've run out of things to say
<tumbleweed> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Nov 19 15:35:37 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-11-19-14.14.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-11-19-14.14.html
<tumbleweed> thanks everyone
<barry> tumbleweed: thanks
<tumbleweed> stgraber: you'll add the PPU rights?
 * tumbleweed added him to the ubuntu-dev team
<stgraber> tumbleweed: yep, sometimes later today (sorta busy atm)
<dholbach> congratulations mitya57!
<mitya57> danke dholbach!
<dholbach> :-)
<stgraber> tumbleweed, mitya57: PPU added
<mitya57> thanks once again!
<mitya57> I will test it soon for new unity-mail :)
<dholbach> awesome :)
<jdstrand> hi!
<tyhicks> hello!
<jjohansen> hi
<jdstrand> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Nov 19 18:02:07 2012 UTC.  The chair is jdstrand. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<jdstrand> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<jdstrand> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<jdstrand> I'll go first
<mdeslaur> hi!
<jdstrand> it is a short week for me. I'm off Thu and Fri
<jdstrand> I'm on triage
<jdstrand> I have a pending update and a small regression fix I need to do for python-django
<jdstrand> I also am working on packaging for secure boot db/dbx updates
<jdstrand> I think that is it for me
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: you're up
<mdeslaur> I'm on community this week
<mdeslaur> and I'm currently working on a python-keyring fix, that is turning into a can of worms
<mdeslaur> I've almost caught all the worms though
<mdeslaur> after that, I'll continue going down the list
<mdeslaur> I have a virt-manager work item I hope to poke at this week too
<mdeslaur> that's it for me
<mdeslaur> sbeattie: you're up
<sbeattie> I have a short week this week, I'm off weds through fri
<sbeattie> I'm still poking at the display manager apparmor stuff
<sbeattie> I also am slowly reviewing jjohansen's parser patches
<sbeattie> that's it for me
<sbeattie> tyhicks: I think micahg's not here at the moment, so you're up
<micahg> no, I'm here
<sbeattie> oops, sorry
<micahg> I've got the Mozilla releases tomorrow and then webkit
<micahg> and short week (off Thu)
<micahg> tyhicks: you're up
<tyhicks> Short week for me as I'm off Thursday and Friday
<tyhicks> I'm finally wrapping up the audit debdiff for the audit MIR
<tyhicks> I have a small bit of testing left for the ecryptfs-utils SRU (didn't make much progress on it last week)
<tyhicks> and the apparmor dbus work
<tyhicks> that's it
<tyhicks> jjohansen: you're up
<jjohansen> short week for me as well, I am off Thursday and Friday
<jjohansen> I am going to finish getting the latest revision of the new interface and rcu locking work up for people to look at and play with (sticking it in a ppa)
<jjohansen> and then I will try to get the labeling part of the stacking work up for people to play with before the end of the week
<mdeslaur> bunch of turkey eaters
<jjohansen> that is it for me, sarnold your up
<jjohansen> Mmmmm turkey
<sarnold> short week for me, off thursday, will be eating mashed potatos and who knows what else... mmm.
 * micahg won't be having turkey, but that's another story
<sarnold> still working on the perl update, some new tests added with cgi.pm security patches are failing during builds, it will take some investigation, as the problem wasn't obvious.
<sarnold> I'll answer the testing team's question about uinput today, here's hoping that simple facl are sufficient..
<sarnold> slightly off-topic, I installed my pandaboard this weekend :) fun little thing.
<sarnold> jdstrand: here's the token!
<mdeslaur> sarnold: let me know if you get stuck with the perl stuff
<sarnold> mdeslaur: thanks
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
<jdstrand> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.
<jdstrand> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/freeciv.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/ziproxy.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/glusterfs.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/smarty3.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/pgbouncer.html
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
<mdeslaur> sarnold: I believe the old thinkfinger packages used to override permissions for uinput, maybe you can take a look at that
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
<jdstrand> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
<sarnold> mdeslaur: ooh, quite old, edgy. :) thanks.
<mdeslaur> sarnold: could have been in a ubuntu-specific patch also, can't remember
<jdstrand> mdeslaur, sbeattie, micahg, tyhicks, jjohansen, sarnold: thanks!
<jdstrand> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Nov 19 18:18:20 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-11-19-18.02.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-11-19-18.02.html
<mdeslaur> thanks jdstrand!
<micahg> jdstrand: thanks
<jjohansen> thanks jdstrand
<tyhicks> thanks!
<sarnold> thanks jdstrand :)
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-11-20
<hallyn> o/
<adam_g> o/
<zul> heylo
<smb> \o
<arosales> Hello
<hallyn> howdie all
<jimbaker> hi
<hallyn> #startmeeting Ubuntu server meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Nov 20 16:01:27 2012 UTC.  The chair is hallyn. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu server meeting Meeting | Current topic:
<hallyn> #topic Review ACTION points from previous meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu server meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<hallyn> none on the agenda
<hallyn> #topic Raring Development
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu server meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Raring Development
<hallyn> does someone want to handle the release bugs?
<hallyn> #link Raring Development
<hallyn> hm
<hallyn> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ubuntu-server/release-bugs.html
<jamespage> o/
<smoser> o/
<hallyn> that's not updated for raring, is it relevant?
<Daviey> hallyn: Action me to fix it :)
<hallyn> #action Daviey to remove release bugs item from agenda
<meetingology> ACTION: Daviey to remove release bugs item from agenda
<Daviey> (fix the report)
<hallyn> oh
<hallyn> #action Daviey  to fix the release bugs report
<meetingology> ACTION: Daviey  to fix the release bugs report
<hallyn> ok, so on to http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-r-tracking-bug-tasks.html#server i guess
<hallyn> Daviey: do you want to drive that?
<Daviey> hallyn: I'm sorry, i cannot.
<Daviey> hallyn: (I'm got one foot in irc right now, but my heart on the phone)
<hallyn> ok, waht i see is a whole lot of unassigned high priority bugs...
<hallyn> bug 1064224 being critical
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1064224 in maas (Ubuntu Raring) "IPMI detection ends up with power_address of 0.0.0.0" [Critical,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1064224
<hallyn> ah, roaxsoax isnt here but seems to be handling it
<hallyn> jamespage: you marked it critical, any comment on it, or is it progressing ok?
<hallyn> ok, let me just turn this into an action for everyone to go through that list.  bc i see at leaset one that i need to deal with (i.e. remove)
<jamespage> hallyn, with regards to the maas bugs; I went through and aligned them to maas upstream in importance
<hallyn> #action everyone look through http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-r-tracking-bug-tasks.html#server
<meetingology> ACTION: everyone look through http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-r-tracking-bug-tasks.html#server
<jamespage> most are inprogress or committed - so its OK
<hallyn> jamespage: ok, thanks
<hallyn> arosales: do you want to go through blueprints?
<arosales> hallyn: hello :-)
<hallyn> howdie :)
<arosales> I think the main thing jamespage, smoser, and Daviey were working on was specs in blueprints
<arosales> how is that going?
<smoser> we made an initial pass through them last week.
<Daviey> (Rest still to finish)
<smoser> they generally look in good shape (other than the ones I did).
<smoser> we made comments in the whiteboard of ones that needed more fleshing out.
<arosales> smoser: any to bring up here?
<smoser> if you have a blueprint that you are wondering about the status of, please ping jamespage or Daviey
<hallyn> does anyone have questions about their blueprints they want to ask here?
<smoser> as they are not taking long hiatus for turkey consumption shortly like I am.
<jamespage> ta smoser :-)
<hallyn> thanks guys, moving on,
<hallyn> #topic Ubuntu Server Team Events
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu server meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Ubuntu Server Team Events
<hallyn> anything coming up?
<hallyn> (3,
<hallyn> 2,
<smoser> https://reinvent.awsevents.com/ is next week.
<hallyn> oh yeah i keep getting emails about that
<smoser> jcastro, m_3, smoser, utlemming.
<smoser> will be there.
<hallyn> that's a big group
<hallyn> can we watch an online stream (and giggle)?
<hallyn> eh i'll have to look for one, sounds aweseome.  moving on,
<hallyn> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu server meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
<hallyn> hggdh: around?
<hallyn> seems not, moving on,
<hallyn> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu server meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
<hallyn> hi smb
 * smb takes break
<smb> err breath
<smb> I went through the review of Xen that adds back qemu-dm with apw. We found a few documentation/packaging improvements and I think could be uploaded soonish. Though probably need to kick out the previous upload still in raring-proposed. Which actually brings up the next topic: Daviey, I think apw talked to you already about the dependency breakage for xen-hypervisor-4.1-<arch> for some nova packages.
<smb> One option there may be to depend on the xen-system-<arch> meta-packages which are produced since xen-4.1.3 (though those pull in xen-utils as well).
<smb> Otherwise bug 1078926 seems to have some upstream fix. Though its not yet completely clear whether it potentially could change a bit before finally arriving there. I have added some links to test kernels to the report.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1078926 in Ubuntu "raring instance failed to find EC2 datasource" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1078926
<smb> ..
<hallyn> smb: Daviey is on the phone, let's give him another 30 secs to see the ping
<smoser> smb, thanks for your work there.
<hallyn> zul: ^ any comment on the xen packaging suggestion?
<smoser> on that bug. you were able to reproduce locally ?
<smb> smoser, Merely prodding upstream
<smb> smb, Yes I was
<smb> Actually even with xen 4.2 host
<hallyn> smb: do i understand right that the kernel in quantal-proposed should have fixes for all the network namespace refcount bugs?
<zul> i dont have a comment yet
<hallyn> zul: np, thanks, just checking
<smb> hallyn, I think the second fix is still pending to move into updates
<hallyn> right, but fix is in proposed at least - phew
<hallyn> ok, pls catch Daviey later :)  moving on,
<smb> hallyn, Yes it should be
<hallyn> thanks smb
<hallyn> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions regarding Ubuntu ARM Server (rbasak)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu server meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions regarding Ubuntu ARM Server (rbasak)
<hallyn> rbasak: any news?
<rbasak> Nothing to report. Any questions for me?
<hallyn> sounds like no,
<hallyn> thanks, rbasak.  moving on,
<hallyn> #topic Open Discussion
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu server meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Open Discussion
<hallyn> we're saving our chatting for turkey day?
<hallyn> ok,
<hallyn> #topic Announce next meeting date and time
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu server meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Announce next meeting date and time
<hallyn> next meeting will be next Tuesday, Nov 27, at 16:00 UTC
<hallyn> thanks everyone
<hallyn> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Nov 20 16:20:20 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-11-20-16.01.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-11-20-16.01.html
<jamespage> thanks hallyn
<zul> thats was quick
<zul> hallyn:  turkey was last month try to keep up
<arosales> thanks hallyn
<jsalisbury> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Nov 20 17:00:29 2012 UTC.  The chair is jsalisbury. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<jsalisbury> ##
<jsalisbury> ## This is the Ubuntu Kernel Team weekly status meeting.
<jsalisbury> ##
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/raring
<jsalisbury> # Meeting Etiquette
<jsalisbury> #
<jsalisbury> # NOTE: '..' indicates that you are finished with your input.
<jsalisbury> #       'o/' indicates you have something to add (please wait until you are recognized)
<jsalisbury> Roll Call for Ubuntu Kernel Weekly Status Meeting
<herton> o/
<apw> o/
<ppisati> o/
<sforshee> o/
<ogasawara> o/
<sconklin> o/
<smb> \o
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] ARM Status (ppisati)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: ARM Status (ppisati)
<ppisati> nothing to report this week.
<ppisati> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
<jsalisbury> Release metrics and incoming bug data can be reviewed at the following link:
<jsalisbury> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/kt-meeting.txt
<jsalisbury> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Milestone Targeted Work Items (ogasawara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Milestone Targeted Work Items (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> [LINK] http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-raring/canonical-kernel-distro-team-ubuntu-13.04-month-2.html
<ogasawara> || apw         || hardware-r-kernel-config-review       || 12 work items ||
<ogasawara> ||             || hardware-r-kernel-delta-review        ||  2 work items ||
<ogasawara> || cking       || hardware-r-kernel-config-review       ||  1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> || ogasawara   || hardware-r-kernel-config-review       ||  4 work items ||
<ogasawara> ||             || hardware-r-arm-power-measurement      ||  2 work items ||
<ogasawara> || ppisati     || hardware-r-kernel-config-review       ||  1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> ||             || hardware-r-kernel-version-and-flavors ||  1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> || sconklin    || hardware-r-arm-power-measurement      ||  3 work items ||
<ogasawara> || smb         || hardware-r-kernel-delta-review        ||  1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Raring Development Kernel (ogasawara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Raring Development Kernel (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Raring
<ogasawara> We have recently rebased the raring kernel to upstream v3.7-rc6.  I plan
<ogasawara> to prep an upload by EOD.
<ogasawara> Important upcoming dates:
<ogasawara>  * Tues Dec 18 - 13.04 Month 2 Milestone - (~4 weeks)
<ogasawara> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: CVE's (henrix)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: CVE's (henrix)
<sconklin> == 2012-11-20 (weekly) ==
<sconklin> Currently we have 28 CVEs on our radar, with 2 CVE retired this week.
<sconklin> See the CVE matrix for the current list:
<sconklin> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/cve/pkg/ALL-linux.html
<sconklin> Overall the backlog has decreased slightly this week:
<sconklin> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/status/cve-metrics.txt
<sconklin> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/cve/pkg/CVE-linux.txt
<sconklin> ..
<sconklin> (for henrix)
<sconklin> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Quantal/Precise/Oneiric/Lucid/Hardy (bjf/herton/henrix)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Quantal/Precise/Oneiric/Lucid/Hardy (bjf/herton/henrix)
<herton> Here is the status for the main kernels, until today (November 20):
<herton> * Hardy - In Testing; 1 CVE; (1 commit)
<herton> * Lucid - In Testing; 1 CVE; (2 commits)
<herton> * Oneiric - Previous cycle released, except for ti-omap4 derivative,
<herton>             waiting on regression-testing.
<herton>           - In Testing (current cycle); 2 CVEs; 6 upstream updates;
<herton>             3 SRUs; 200 commits. Derivatives: lts-backport also on
<herton>             testing, ti-omap4 waiting on previous cycle update to be
<herton>             uploaded
<herton> * Precise - Previous cycle released, except for ti-omap4/armadaxp
<herton>             derivatives, waiting on regression-testing.
<herton>           - In Verification (current cycle); 1 CVE; 2 upstream updates;
<herton>             8 SRUs; 253 commits. Derivatives: ti-omap4/armadaxp waiting
<herton>             on previous cycle update, lowlatency not started on yet.
<herton> * Quantal - In Verification; 2 CVEs; 7 SRUs; 11 commits.
<herton>             Derivatives: lts-quantal also in verification. ti-omap4
<herton>             waiting copy to proposed; lowlatency not started on yet;
<herton>             armadaxp not started on yet, and waiting on previous cycle
<herton>             in regression-testing.
<herton> Current opened tracking bugs details:
<herton> * http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/kernel-sru-workflow.html
<herton> For SRUs, SRU report is a good source of information:
<herton> * http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/sru-report.html
<herton> Future stable cadence cycles:
<herton> * https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RaringRingtail/ReleaseInterlock
<herton> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
<jsalisbury> Thanks everyone
<jsalisbury> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Nov 20 17:05:03 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-11-20-17.00.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-11-20-17.00.html
<czajkowski> aloha
<czajkowski> huats: itnet7 SergioMeneses
<itnet7> Hey there!!
<itnet7> Uhm....
<TadeasParik> hi
<czajkowski> hmm we do ned the others
<czajkowski> lets just give it a few mins shall we
<SergioMeneses> czajkowski, here!
<czajkowski> shall we start
<czajkowski> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Nov 20 20:03:07 2012 UTC.  The chair is czajkowski. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<czajkowski> Aloha and welcome to the LoCo Council meeting
<czajkowski> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoCouncil/Agenda
<czajkowski> todays agenda we'll work from the top down for teams
<czajkowski> #topic Asturian LoCo reapproval
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Asturian LoCo reapproval
<czajkowski> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AsturianTeam/ReApprovalApplication2012
<ivarela> Hi to all. Here, Asturian Team.
<czajkowski> ivarela: hi there
<ivarela> hi
<czajkowski> care to tell us about your loco and how things are going on
<SergioMeneses> ivarela, hello!
<ivarela> First of all, I'm sorry for my english level... I'd like to speak in another language, because it's difficult for me, but... i'll try it. ;)
<czajkowski>  kce
<itnet7> Thanks ivarela
<czajkowski> ivarela: no worries take your time
<czajkowski> lovely wiki page
<SergioMeneses> ivarela, take your time ;)
<czajkowski> and if there is anyone else here who can help ivarela please just say so
<ivarela> As you can see in our ticket, we are a small group...
<SergioMeneses> I really like the edubuntu video
<SergioMeneses> nice
<ivarela> we're asturians, a small territory placed in Spain.
<highvoltage> SergioMeneses: which video is that?
<ivarela> We began to spreading ubuntu at schools some time ago. Ubuntu it's a very good tool for our language.
<czajkowski> nods
<SergioMeneses> highvoltage, - http://youtu.be/rqOZ16kCuqw
<ivarela> edubuntu is the educational job we do with scholars students.
<czajkowski> great work
<ivarela> We try to inicializate them in PC's with Free software.
<SergioMeneses> ivarela, very interesting
<highvoltage> awesome, will share through edubuntu social channels, and sorry for interrupting, I didn't realise this was -meeting
<czajkowski> huats: no worries :)
<czajkowski> highvoltage: no worries
<SergioMeneses> and I see Marcos Costales belongs to ubuntu-ast
<ivarela> do you know Costales ? :D
<czajkowski> ivarela: great work, so how are things done in the loco ? does everyone help?
<SergioMeneses> ivarela, yes... he is a amazing ubuntu member
<ivarela> Costales is a well friend of mine.
<ivarela> People use to work at LoCo, but unfortunately, not all the people has the same free time, so we try to involve all people in the group
<ivarela> This year we had less activity than last year. We tried to open many doors, but we've had less luck.
<czajkowski> nods
<czajkowski> it does happen
<ivarela> For example... We had prepared a summer course with UABRA (Summer University), but in the end we could not do it because of problems with the days
<czajkowski> it's hard but at least youre still going and every bit does help and I love the video well done
<SergioMeneses> ivarela, maybe if you work with the universities, colleges....
<huats> Sorry I am here
<ivarela> what you see in the video it was a very good experience for me. It was the first time that children worked with Ubuntu, and the first time that
<czajkowski> ivarela: is there anything the loco council can do to help ?
<ivarela> the worked in a O.S in their language.
<ivarela> czajkowski, do you mean now, here?
<czajkowski> well in general
<ivarela> in this chat?
<czajkowski> ivarela: if you want and it can be disussed in public sure
<czajkowski> or you need help after te meeting
<ivarela> hmmm I'm sorry. SergioMeneses do you speak spanish?
<ivarela> I think I need a help in this moment to understand the question... :S
<SergioMeneses> ivarela, yes I do, why?
<ivarela> no entiendo la pregunta de czajkowski .. :S
<SergioMeneses> ivarela, czajkowski te pregunta si necesitan alguna ayuda por parte del loco council
<ayoze> ivarela: czajkowski pregunta si el "loco council" puede hacer algo para ayudar
<ivarela> oh, no... we have the people, and we have the tools to do it better, but we need more illusion.
<czajkowski> ok well I think we'll be blogging your video after this
<SergioMeneses> czajkowski, +1
<czajkowski> and see if we can raise the awareness
<czajkowski> #voters SergioMeneses czajkowski itnet7 huats
<meetingology> Current voters: SergioMeneses czajkowski huats itnet7
<ivarela> it would be great :D
<czajkowski> #vote please vote on the re approval of the Asturian LoCo
<meetingology> Please vote on: please vote on the re approval of the Asturian LoCo
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<itnet7> +1 Good Job, Thanks for all of the excellent teamwork!!
<meetingology> +1 Good Job, Thanks for all of the excellent teamwork!! received from itnet7
<czajkowski> +1 amazing work folks!
<meetingology> +1 amazing work folks! received from czajkowski
<SergioMeneses> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from SergioMeneses
<ivarela> http://tinyurl.com/btunccx
<ivarela> :D
 * czajkowski tickles huats 
<SergioMeneses> ivarela, I wanna know if you have some documentation about your migration process
<SergioMeneses> maybe I can help spreading those ideas here or creating a project similar
<ivarela> migration process?
<huats> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from huats
<huats> too
<SergioMeneses> ivarela, yes with edubuntu
<huats> sorry I just need to backlog
<ivarela> SergioMeneses,  can I speak with you later (in spanish, :S)
<huats> that is a great work really
<SergioMeneses> ivarela, sure
<czajkowski> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: please vote on the re approval of the Asturian LoCo
<meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<czajkowski> well done!
<itnet7> Congratulations!!
<ayoze> ivarela: te pregunta si hay alguna documentaciÃ³n sobre el proceso de migraciÃ³n a edubuntu en las escuelas.
<SergioMeneses> congratz ubuntu-ast!!!
<ivarela> Thank you!
<czajkowski> #action czajkowski update Launchpad with the team information
<meetingology> ACTION: czajkowski update Launchpad with the team information
<czajkowski> #topic Czech LoCo Re Approval
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Czech LoCo Re Approval
<czajkowski> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CzechTeam/ReApprovalApplication2012
<czajkowski> who's here from the czech Loco ?
<vojtech_t> hi from the Czech rep.
<TadeasParik> czajkowski, hello!
<czajkowski> hey there folks thanks for coming
<SergioMeneses> hello Czech LoCo !!!
<czajkowski> lovely pictures on the applicateion
<czajkowski> *application
<vojtech_t> thanks
<itnet7> Hey there!! TadeasParik, vojtech_t, and team!!
<itnet7> They were very nice!
<czajkowski> vojtech_t: so tell us about your loco
<czajkowski> and the work you guys do
<SergioMeneses> it is a great application, congratz
<vojtech_t> we are quite small community but we try to do our best, i think we are doing well with localization and community support and also with events organization -- you can see photos from our release parties (we started them in 2011) and also from other events/conferences we took part
<itnet7> Very good activity!
<vojtech_t> we would like to focus on working with people (we always need more volunteers and acitve members) and also with advocacy (we are trying but it's not as good as we would like to be)
<czajkowski> nods
<czajkowski> but at leas tyou se ethis and are working towards making this better
<czajkowski> so that's good to see
<czajkowski> vojtech_t: can you tell us about how you started the materials part of your loco
<czajkowski> I see this as a very good thing to be doing in your loco and I know others in different teams have tried similar
<vojtech_t> czajkowski: materials?
<czajkowski> Recently we started to produce some Ubuntu marketing materials for Ubuntu users in Czechia. Currently we have badges, car stickers and "powered by" stickers for laptopts/computers.
<czajkowski> ^^
<SergioMeneses> I was thinking to ask about it... they have a ubuntu book in czech
<SergioMeneses> very amazing
<vojtech_t> oh yes -- many our members asked us for some stickers they could put on their computer etc. and we just thought it's good idea
<czajkowski> vojtech_t: would be nice to share them  on http://spreadubuntu.org/
<vojtech_t> we have a nonprofit organization and some money so it is not so difficult to make some of those
<huats> I really like the book ! looks very promising
<vojtech_t> spreadubuntu, yes but for now wee have only buttons (just ubuntu logo, no special graphics) and "standard" power by stickers
<czajkowski> it's still great to see
<czajkowski> so one thing I'm curuous about is what do you plan fo the future any events, I notice the http://loco.ubuntu.com/teams/ubuntu-cz/events/history lists past events but nothing in the future
<vojtech_t> huats: yes the book was great, but the last one is for Ubuntu 10.10 -- we really would like to produce new version, but publishing house is no longer interested and we don't have enough money to produce them on our own
<huats> vojtech_t: may be you can try to find a foreign publishing company
<huats> I don't know if it is possible
<vojtech_t> czajkowski: we don't use loco.ubuntu.com -- we put our events there, but our primary "channel" for events is our forum
<itnet7> vojtech_t: perhaps get some donation links on the project pages, and blog about it
<czajkowski> vojtech_t: can we encourage you to maybe add them there please
<itnet7> for the publishing costs
<czajkowski> as that is where all users are directed to to find out about teams
<czajkowski> #topic please vote on the reapproval of the Czech LoCo
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: please vote on the reapproval of the Czech LoCo
<vojtech_t> czajkowski: ok, we will add all our events on loco.ubuntu.com
<itnet7> vojtech_t: you don't have to use LTP to track attending, you can just add the registration url
<czajkowski> +1
<SergioMeneses> +1
<czajkowski> bah
<czajkowski> #topic please vote on the reapproval of the Czech LoCo
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: please vote on the reapproval of the Czech LoCo
<czajkowski> #topic please vote on the reapproval of the Czech LoCo
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: please vote on the reapproval of the Czech LoCo
<SergioMeneses> jaja
<czajkowski> #vote please vote on the reapproval of the Czech LoCo
<meetingology> Please vote on: please vote on the reapproval of the Czech LoCo
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<czajkowski> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from czajkowski
<SergioMeneses> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from SergioMeneses
<itnet7> +1, really nice work!!!
<meetingology> +1, really nice work!!! received from itnet7
 * czajkowski shouldnt have dinner and chair at the same time! 
<huats> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from huats
<czajkowski> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: please vote on the reapproval of the Czech LoCo
<meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<huats> really nice job
<czajkowski> well done folks!
<vojtech_t> thanks
<TadeasParik> thanks!
<SergioMeneses> congratulations guys!
<SergioMeneses> keep working
<huats> congrats
<czajkowski> #action update Launchpad with Czech expirary date
<meetingology> ACTION: update Launchpad with Czech expirary date
<czajkowski> well done folks
<czajkowski> #topic AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<czajkowski> council folks any stuff to discuss
<huats> nothing in particular
<itnet7> czajkowski: nothing that I can think of.... I will do the minutes tonight
<itnet7> #action itnet7 will update the minutes
<meetingology> ACTION: itnet7 will update the minutes
<czajkowski> cool I think we should add them to the blog also
<SergioMeneses> czajkowski, sure
<czajkowski> with some highlights of the application this was discused in the UDS session
<czajkowski> anything else ?
<SergioMeneses> czajkowski, and we can share information about the end of the cicle
<huats> We haven't started yet I think to create the bugs
<huats> for reapproval
<huats> it is something that we should
<czajkowski> ah I thought we had..
<czajkowski> no ?
<huats> I could be wrong
<czajkowski> SergioMeneses: didnt you create the bugs?
<SergioMeneses> czajkowski, yes
<SergioMeneses> huats, you can check LP
<huats> but I don't remember to have received the email bug in LP
<czajkowski> cool so maybe we should follow up on them now and see how things are progressing
<huats> that is clearly LP fault ;)
<czajkowski> eh no mister it is not :p
<SergioMeneses> huats, check your email
<czajkowski> are you sure it's not gone to some other folder
<SergioMeneses> I have all information here
<SergioMeneses> huats, czajkowski https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-locoteams/+milestone/13.04
<SergioMeneses> 8 bugs
<czajkowski> cool
<czajkowski> anything else folks..
<SergioMeneses> I did it 3 weeks ago after UDS
<czajkowski> cool well lets follow up on these and check in to see how the teams are doing and can we help
<itnet7> Nice, Thanks SergioMeneses !
<SergioMeneses> czajkowski, sounds good for me
<czajkowski> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Nov 20 20:43:23 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-11-20-20.03.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-11-20-20.03.html
<czajkowski> Thanks for coming folks!
<huats> Thanks SergioMeneses
<SergioMeneses> czajkowski, huats itnet7 ;)
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-11-21
<vibhav> Anybody here for the meeting?
<vibhav> (The ubuntu membership board)
<linaporras> Helo
<vibhav> o/
<vibhav> Should start in 3 minutes
<linaporras> I'm here for the meeting, as membership candidate
<vibhav> same here
<zequence> Yep
<kokoye2007> vibhav:
<kokoye2007> linaporras:
<kokoye2007> nice to meet ya
<vibhav> :)
<linaporras> :) nice to meet you too!!
<head_victim> Good evening folks, we're just trying to rustle up quorum amongst the board members
<head_victim> !rmb
<ubottu> PING! beuno, cjohnston, cyphermox, Destine, ejat, head_victim, hggdh, IdleOne, iulian, micahg, n0rman, Pendulum, PabloRubienes. Meeting time.
<Pendulum> o/
 * micahg is kinda here
<head_victim> Awesome, one more and we're good to make a start
<beuno> o/
<kokoye2007> head_victim:  see ya again
<beuno> let's get this party started
<head_victim> Thanks beuno, appreciate you filling in :)
<head_victim> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Nov 21 12:02:46 2012 UTC.  The chair is head_victim. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<head_victim> Hello and welcome to the Ubuntu Membership Review Board for the 1200 UTC meeting for November 21, 2012. The wiki page for the Review Board is available here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/Boards
<head_victim> We will attempt to get through all of the applicants that have added themselves to that list before today's meeting. If we are unable to make it through the entire list due to time constraints, then at the next meeting we will pick up where we left off.
<head_victim> The format for the meeting is as follows: We will go through the list of applicants one by one, by date of application (FIFO)
<head_victim> Each applicant should introduce themselves (1-5 sentences) and provide links to their Ubuntu Wiki page. After the introduction the members of the Membership Review Board will review the pages and, if needed, ask the applicant further questions.
<head_victim> During this time it is encouraged for other members of the community to show their support for the applicant. Do not be alarmed if the members of the Membership Review Board are quiet during this time; they are most likely reading wiki/launchpad/forum/other pages and deciding how they are going to vote.
<head_victim> When the board is ready to vote, they will publicly vote in the channel with either +1, 0, or -1 (for membership, abstain, and against membership, respectively). If the sum of those numbers is positive, then the applicant is now an official Ubuntu member! (feel free congratulate them!)
<head_victim> #voters Pendulum beuno micahg head_victim
<meetingology> Current voters: Pendulum beuno head_victim micahg
<head_victim> So now, without any further ado, we'll get started. According to the wiki kokoye2007 is first up
<head_victim> #topic kokoye2007
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: kokoye2007
<head_victim> kokoye2007: can you please introduce yourself to the board, thanks
<kokoye2007> thx vibhav
<kokoye2007> thx head_victim
<kokoye2007> i am
<kokoye2007> local ubuntu lo founder of ubuntu myanmar loco team
<kokoye2007> and OSS Dev;
<kokoye2007> Ubuntu Myanmar Localization and Shan Localization team  admin
<kokoye2007> most people love in myanmar
<kokoye2007> next yrs i think 30 % of Myanmar Computer User change to ubuntu
<kokoye2007> you can see my activities photo on flickr.com/groups/ubuntu-mm
<head_victim> kokoye2007: thanks for that, I'm just reading over the loco activities. as well :)
<head_victim> kokoye2007: so both the testimonials you have don't mention Ubuntu specifically, can you provide any insight into how relinux is related to Ubuntu (for those of us not sure what it is) and how you have specifically address Ubuntu in the open source community in SE Asia?
<head_victim> kokoye2007: as an example do you have links to events you've run with the loco or had some involvement in?
<linaporras> koyoke, so long time ago since I saw the Asia map, your'e country looks beautiful on Wikipedia's photo
<head_victim> And that explains why there was no response :)
<beuno> ah
<head_victim> We
<beuno> next?
<head_victim> We'll briefly wait for them to reconnect otherwise we'll move on
<head_victim> Well we can always come back at the end if they rejoin
<head_victim> So we'll move on for now I guess to keep it rolling
<head_victim> #topic zequence
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: zequence
<head_victim> zequence: can you please introduce yourself to the board?
<zequence> Seems like ko ko ye reappeared..
<head_victim> zequence: you mind holding off for a bit
<zequence> I can wait. np
<head_victim> #topic kokoye2007 again
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: kokoye2007 again
<kokoye2007> head_victim: sorry for dv
<kokoye2007> dc
<head_victim> kokoye2007: before you timed out we asked about your involvement in the loco, your application apepars based on that work but doesn't show what specific contributions you've made in that area
<kokoye2007> ya
<kokoye2007> thx head_victim
<kokoye2007> i am ubuntu myanmar loco team founder
<kokoye2007> and translation team administrator
<head_victim> kokoye2007: according to launchpad there's only been 14 translation strings completed, do you use multiple lp accounts?
<kokoye2007> ya
<kokoye2007> i am wanna contribute ubuntu bug team and MOTU
<Pendulum> kokoye2007: is there anyone from the Ubuntu MM team who could come cheer for you in the meeting?
<kokoye2007> ok
<kokoye2007> one is come to there
<head_victim> kokoye2007: there just aren't many specifics about your involvement available other than founding. Do you run events for the team? If so can you point out which ones?
<kokoye2007> ya
<kokoye2007> he aslo dc again
<kokoye2007> wc TheDrums
<kokoye2007> come back again now thohi
<kokoye2007> sorry wc thohi
<kokoye2007> he is Ubuntu Myanmar LoCo Team Member
<head_victim> thohi: can you briefly explain kokoye2007's involvement in the loco? Have they organised events, how long has it been going, etc?
<thohi> ya, we moving together for LoCo team
<thohi> ok, since we active from 2009 for ubuntu loco team
<thohi> also participate in barcamp
<thohi> ever new version release time we make event
<thohi> support for whole country with customize distro for our country people
<zequence> hehe. Well, I don't think they have any personal opinions at all. They only want to make sure the persons involvement matches the definition for what it takes to be accepted
<zequence> Opps, sorry
<head_victim> thohi: we're looking more specifically for how kokoye2007 is involved with the loco. We're trying to establish kokoye2007's efforts and contributions here, not the loco
<thohi> now we open in yangon for loco team office for more support to user
<thohi> ok
<head_victim> kokoye2007: what I'm thinking is, you're probably on course for membership but your application is pretty vague and lacking some detail. I'm willing to sit down after the meeting and give you some feedback on how to improve it because we'd really like to assess you but we just don't have enough information currently to do so
<thohi> he involve in loco team as main active member and core member
<kokoye2007> Ok head_victim
<head_victim> kokoye2007: we really need to have it freely available because we have such a short time to assess. So we'll move on to the next applicant and if you can wait around we can provide you some specific feedback on how to get the application ready. Does that make sense and are you ok with that?
<linaporras> Oh, well at this time I have a question, How many time has the Membership Board for each session?
<head_victim> linaporras: we usually allow an hour, if we're close for time we can extend a little bit, depending on board member availability
<head_victim> Hence the applications need to be pretty clear to make it easy for us to see involvement.
<linaporras> :o ok Thanks so much... well I don't know if there is some language barrier with kokoye...
<kokoye2007> :S
<head_victim> linaporras: that's why I was going to hang around afterwards to see if I could help :)
<kokoye2007> ok
<linaporras> :)
<head_victim> #action Membership baord to work with kokoye2007 to prepare application to make it clearer
<meetingology> ACTION: Membership baord to work with kokoye2007 to prepare application to make it clearer
<head_victim> #topic zequence
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: zequence
<head_victim> zequence: can you please introduce yourself to the baord while we read your application
<zequence> Yea, so, I'm Kaj Ailomaa, developer for Ubuntu Studio
<linaporras> zequence where U from?
<zequence> I've originally mostly been interested in improving Ubuntu Studio for audio work, but the more I've become involved, I've started to work in other areas as well
<head_victim> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/zequence
<zequence> I'm Finnish, living in Sweden
<linaporras> :o  :)
<zequence> I'm quite active in the development of Ubuntu Studio. Mainly in planning and documentation atm. Will become maintainer of linux-lowlatency
<zequence> Right now, I'm working on redoing the Ubuntu Studio landing page, and make sure any page in the wiki having to do with Ubuntu Studio is updated and relevant
<linaporras> : zequence you have 4269 karma points
<zequence> Sorry, the Ubuntu Studio Wiki landing page
<zequence> linaporras: Yea, but it seems making blueprints grants you a lot of points
<linaporras> your'e launchpad profile it's awesome
<zequence> I do some package maintenance for Ubuntu Studio, but only on a smaller scale still
<head_victim> zequence: for those of us who aren't heavily involved, what sort of time commitment is involved in maintaining the lowlevel kernel project?
<zequence> It'll mainly be updating the source and make sure it's in sync with linux-generic, but we will also be making small adjustments to the configs, if needed
<zequence> I don't think I'll be making any patches any time soon, but it's not totally out of the question either
<zequence> The config is mainly what diffs atm
<beuno> zequence, keeping it up-to-date is great in itself
<beuno> someone has to do it!
<beuno> zequence, any concerns about Ubuntu as a project?
<zequence> In short, if I would explain how this has an impact on Ubuntu, is in how easy it will be for anyone to create multimedia on Ubuntu. The work is not only focused on Ubuntu Studio, but we also work with developers upstream, Debian Multimedia Team, Ubuntu, as well as the Ubuntu Studio community
<zequence> So, we're sort of the administrative link between the applications and the users
<zequence> And I'm very much involved in trying to make that work as well as possible
<head_victim> zequence: when did your involvement beggin with Ubuntu Studio?
<zequence> I think somewhere around 2010, but I've only seriously begun to commit the last 3 cycles
<beuno> zequence, any concerns about Ubuntu as a project?
<zequence> beuno: Perhaps I did not interpret you right. What do you mean by concerns?
<beuno> zequence, things that worry you about the state of the project currently
<beuno> or its direction
<zequence> As my focus is not on the total scope of Ubuntu, I tend to be mostly concerned with only the multimedia creation side, which does have a lot of issues.
<beuno> fair enough
<beuno> I think we're ready to vote
<beuno> micahg, are you back yet?
<head_victim> #voters Pendulum beuno micahg head_victim Destine
<meetingology> Current voters: Destine Pendulum beuno head_victim micahg
<beuno> +1 fro me
<head_victim> #vote zequence to obtain Ubuntu Membership
<meetingology> Please vote on: zequence to obtain Ubuntu Membership
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<beuno> +1 from me
<meetingology> +1 from me received from beuno
<Destine> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Destine
<micahg> +1 good involvement, good leadership
<meetingology> +1 good involvement, good leadership received from micahg
<head_victim> +1 Your contributions are well documented on launchpad and you have strong testimonials from identifiable sources, keep up the great work with Ubuntu Studio
<meetingology> +1 Your contributions are well documented on launchpad and you have strong testimonials from identifiable sources, keep up the great work with Ubuntu Studio received from head_victim
<Pendulum> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Pendulum
<head_victim> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: zequence to obtain Ubuntu Membership
<meetingology> Votes for:5 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<linaporras> wowow it's seems that zequence was approved, congratulations!!!!!!!!!
<hggdh> darn, it is now at 0600 CST!
<head_victim> Congratulations zequence, welcome to Ubuntu Membership
<zequence> Great! Thanks everyone!
<JHOSMAN> Congratulations zequence
<Destine> zequence, congratulations!
<smartboyhw> Congrats zequence
<vibhav> congrats zequence
<zequence> JHOSMAN: Destine: smartboyhw: vibhav: Thank you!
<JHOSMAN> ;)
<kokoye2007> zequence: Congrats
<zequence> kokoye2007: Thank you. Sorry for interrupting your applications. Hope to see you as a member soon
<kokoye2007> nvm :D zequence carry on
<head_victim> Ok we have quorum for continuing, is there a meeting scheduled after this that we're running into?
 * vibhav takes a look at the calender
<Pendulum> head_victim: not according to the Fridge
<head_victim> #topic zequence
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: zequence
<head_victim> #topic linaporras
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: linaporras
<Destine> so we continue.
<linaporras> Hi Membership Board, it's a pleasure to be here today, my name is Lina Porras, I'm From Colombia,  I'm 23, and I love Ubuntu, for many reasons, but the most important is: the community, and how each member can learn of the other members. Right now I'm leader of Ubuntu Colombia Community, I consider that my principal activity is introduce new community, the final user is my favorite topic... and you can see more information
<head_victim> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/linaporras
<head_victim> linaporras: do you have any lnks to the events you've helped out at?
<linaporras> oh let me see tha fan page on facebook
<JHOSMAN> events for linaporras
<JHOSMAN> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ColombianTeam/Eventos/CharlaparaPrincipiantesdeUbuntuHackbo201209#preview
<JHOSMAN> http://wiki.softwarefreedomday.org/2012/Colombia/Bogota/SFDBogota
<JHOSMAN> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ColombianTeam/Eventos/OneiricReleaseParty
<linaporras> And this is our next event: http://ubuntu-co.com/7mo-Aniversario-Ubuntu-Colombia
<JHOSMAN> excuseme https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ColombianTeam/Eventos/ReleaseParty/QuantalReleaseParty
<head_victim> And so linaporras, do you organise these events, run them on the day, help out with marketing?
<JHOSMAN> http://flisolbogota.info/
<linaporras> the next saturday I will making a conference to introduce Ubuntu in our 7th community anniversary
<linaporras> Thansk Jhosman
<linaporras> I hel to organize
<head_victim> JHOSMAN: thanks very much :)
<JHOSMAN> All these events are organized by it: P
<linaporras> also  convoque the people trough the mailing list specially
<linaporras> and I propose the basic shcema for the event
<linaporras> and all the community helps and contribute to make it real
 * JHOSMAN She is a key part of our community (UbuntuCO) 
<head_victim> linaporras: as someone who's run events locally in the past, I am impressed with the scale of those events described
<linaporras> well our community has been growing up
<linaporras> in the 2 last years
<linaporras> also I have an advantage is tha a I live in BogotÃ¡, which is the capital from Colombia, so we have more people to convoque
<JHOSMAN> Among the biggest events organizer was FLISOL Bogota (in Spanish)  http://flisolbogota.info/equipo
<linaporras> https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/644561_10151190912404931_1657582924_n.jpg
<head_victim> #voters Pendulum head_victim Destine hggdh
<meetingology> Current voters: Destine Pendulum beuno head_victim hggdh micahg
<head_victim> #vote linaporras  to obtain Ubuntu Membership
<meetingology> Please vote on: linaporras  to obtain Ubuntu Membership
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<hggdh> +1 please do not get sick from exaustion
<meetingology> +1 please do not get sick from exaustion received from hggdh
<head_victim> +1 Great community involvement, good testimonials and nice support in channel. Keep up the great work
<meetingology> +1 Great community involvement, good testimonials and nice support in channel. Keep up the great work received from head_victim
<Destine> +1 I am very impressed by the events your organized.
<meetingology> +1 I am very impressed by the events your organized. received from Destine
<Pendulum> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Pendulum
<JHOSMAN> +1 =) For his work in the community gigantic
<head_victim> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: linaporras  to obtain Ubuntu Membership
<meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<linaporras> :o I'm so exicted, Jhosman your'e a big part of our community. Thanks Ubuntu Membership Board
<hggdh> linaporras: bienvenida
<head_victim> Congratulations linaporras, keep up the good work in your Loco and like hggdh, don't burn out
<head_victim> JHOSMAN: thank you for turning up to show support and for providing the links upon request
<linaporras> jejeejje, That's my team said...
<Pendulum> linaporras: congrats. Now what do I have to do to convince you to help with Ubuntu Women ;)
<Destine> congratulations! and thank you for helping me practicing spanish... by reading.
<linaporras> hehehe oh that's the next step
<JHOSMAN> Congratulations linaporras This deserves a celebration, with our 7th anniversary
<linaporras> oh  yes!!!
<kokoye2007> Happy with linaporras
<linaporras> Thanks kokoye2007
<Destine> linaporras, thank you again for helping me practicing spanish...
<linaporras> jeje whenever you want
<linaporras> Spanish it's a beautiful language. El espaÃ±ol es un lenguaje hermoso
<linaporras> and always you can found "new" words...
<Destine> linaporras, sorry, don't know what hermoso means... but i do understand the former part.
<hggdh> beautiful
<linaporras> Maybe there's some time vibhavp membership?
<head_victim> #topic vibhav
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: vibhav
<linaporras> that's the meaning beautiful!!!
<Destine> linaporras, got it. hermoso, and hermosa?
<hggdh> vibhav: please go ahead
<head_victim> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/VibhavPant
<vibhav> o/
<vibhav> My name is Vibhav Pant, I currently live in India. Im 15 and I have been using Ubuntu since 6.04.
<vibhav> I had started with my contributions in the 11.04 cycle by traslations. I was later introduced to Development by the Fix-it-Friday initiative that we used to have for the precise cycle. Since then I mainly contribute by Development, translations, helping out with the news team.
<vibhav> TO be honest
<linaporras> yes hermoso it's for male and things and hermosa it's for female
<vibhav> I had entered the community like a (somewhat) brat
<vibhav> I was not aware of certain rules and was providing wrong advice
<vibhav> to people in #ubuntu
<linaporras> :o I like the story about switching to Ubuntu
<vibhav> It was then when IdleOne and other superb people who took me aside and explained me everything
<kokoye2007> Opps 6.04 long term geeks
<vibhav> Anyways, I now lead the Ubuntu Hindi Translation Team
<vibhav> During the 12.04 cycle, I had kicked off a "translation drive"
<vibhav> In which we aim to correct common translation mistakes our team members commit
<linaporras> I like cibhav future plans
<vibhav> (Some translated using Google Translate which doesnt do English->Hindi Translation well)
<vibhav> linaporras: :)
<JHOSMAN> Nice! vibhav
<vibhav> There are still incorrect strings left and we aim to finish them by this cycle.
<linaporras> and  have 8320  Karma, oh my God... there's some time since a I don't get new karma
<linaporras> awesome
<JHOSMAN> I remember when I applied to Ubuntu member, you did, do a good job and deserve membership.  vibhav
<head_victim> vibhav: in the past there was some criticism of team hopping, have you found some more stable teams to contribute to?
<vibhav> yes
<vibhav> certainly, I contribute to the Developer Advisory Team (which takes up most of my team), in the mean time I try to help out with deveopment by doing merges, syncs, SRUs, etc
<vibhav> http://fridge.ubuntu.com/2012/11/19/new-contributor-feedback-12-10/ and https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2012-November/036144.html
<vibhav> The above links contain the reports that we have made for the 12.10 cycle
<vibhav> (You can also obtain it as a PDF file at http://people.canonical.com/~dholbach/d-a-t/12.10Feedback-Contributors.pdf)
<vibhav> and Thats all I wanted to say :)
<head_victim> vibhav: we're just reviewing the application.
<head_victim> We're also trying to ensure that we're happy that you've been able to turn around the previous issues we've had in approving your application.
<head_victim> I thank you for getting some updated testimonials in that regard
<vibhav> :)
<head_victim> It's good to see that you are starting to realise that it's not about how many teams you can join on lp but how you can contribute to the teams you do join. That to me is a big step forward
<vibhav> I agree I was certainly not in the correct path eariler. I have tried to correct myself in every way I can
<vibhav> head_victim: yes, It took me time to realize that. Quality, not Quntity :)
<vibhav> Quantity*
<linaporras> wowow this is what I was talking about, how we can grow up with the community
<hggdh> vibhav: thank you for that. I do hope you now understand the Way Things Work, even when they sort of fail to
<vibhav> exactly
<head_victim> vibhav: glad you found some teams to help you understand that :)
<head_victim> #vote vibhav to obtain Ubuntu Membership
<meetingology> Please vote on: vibhav to obtain Ubuntu Membership
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<vibhav> linaporras: Indeed. This community has taught me much.
<hggdh> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from hggdh
<Pendulum> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Pendulum
<JHOSMAN> +1 =)
<head_victim> +1 I'm now happy that you appear to have integrated well into the community and have taken feedback on board and improved as a result. I would like to see your efforts continue into the future and look forward to hearing about your work
<meetingology> +1 I'm now happy that you appear to have integrated well into the community and have taken feedback on board and improved as a result. I would like to see your efforts continue into the future and look forward to hearing about your work received from head_victim
<head_victim> JHOSMAN: only board members can vote :) Sorry
<Destine> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Destine
<JHOSMAN> One question, why are not my vote count? I Ubuntu Member
<Destine> JHOSMAN, you need to be a board member.
<JHOSMAN> head_victim https://launchpad.net/~jhosman
<hggdh> JHOSMAN: you have to be an Ubuntu member *and* a Membership Board member
<JHOSMAN> Ahh ok ;)
<head_victim> JHOSMAN: only board members can vote, we accept testimonials from all people in support of applicants though.
<head_victim> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: vibhav to obtain Ubuntu Membership
<meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<kokoye2007> JHOSMAN:  not sitting Jude :D
<vibhav> \o/
<JHOSMAN> :P no problem!
<hggdh> vibhav: I am glad I can approve you now. Welcome in!
<JHOSMAN> Congratulations vibhav =)
<head_victim> Congratulations vibhav, welcome to Ubuntu membership
<linaporras> Oh yes!!! It's seams that Vibhav has been approved!!!! That's Great, Your'e so young, thereÂ¿s many things to contribute, and many places to go and share with other people about Ubuntu
 * vibhav hugs everybody
<Destine> vibhav, congrats!
<vibhav> Thank you!
<hggdh> vibhav: keep on the good work, and thank you for all your help
<JHOSMAN> Companions, sorry but I must go to work, to spend good day
<hggdh> :-)
<vibhav> hggdh: Thank YOU. I would hve never known the correct way if you werent there
<vibhav> have*
<hggdh> we are happy :-)
<head_victim> JHOSMAN: thanks for hanging aroudn :0
<head_victim> :)
<linaporras> I also have to work
<linaporras> Has been an honur to be here today
<linaporras> I am still exciting
<vibhav> linaporras: It is a long road ahead :D
<hggdh> linaporras: thank you, and I hope you have an splendid day
<linaporras> and also very very happy
<linaporras> :)
<head_victim> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Nov 21 13:36:39 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-11-21-12.02.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-11-21-12.02.html
<head_victim> kokoye2007: are you still with us?
<linaporras> In Colombia this i'ts the begining of our  work day
<head_victim> linaporras: I'm in Australia, it's nearly midnight here :)
<hggdh> in the US it is the same
<JHOSMAN> :P COlombian Time!
<linaporras> :o God
<linaporras> In Colombia 08:00
<head_victim> Ah, I'm nearly on tomrorow already!
<linaporras> oh that's the time magic
<linaporras> Thank you so much for your'e time
<linaporras> See you in other opportuniy
<linaporras> Soon Colombian's team will be posting photos of our aniversary
<head_victim> linaporras: thanks for your efforts in your country and congratulations once more to all the successful applicants
<linaporras> hope you see it
<linaporras> :)
<head_victim> Ok well I'll hang aroudn to see if kokoye comes back
<head_victim> If anyone else present has questions about membership or it's process I'm here for a bit (as are some of the other baord members)
<Destine> head_victim, me as well. but less focused than you. :)
<vibhav> hggdh: When will we get added to the team?
<kokoye2007> head_victim: meeting is done ?
<kokoye2007> dc again :S
<vibhav> kokoye2007: yep
<head_victim> kokoye2007: yes, we're still here to help
<head_victim> DId seeing the other applicants help you udnerstand what we're looking for?
<kokoye2007> just spamming head_victim http://www.flickr.com/groups/ubuntu-mm/pool
<head_victim> Basically we need evidence to support your claims to be readily available so we can process the applications with a minimum of fuss.
<kokoye2007> thx head_victim
<head_victim> So if you've run events in the past linking a list to them on your application page with a short description of what your involvement was would really help
<kokoye2007> i think i can't focus my applications bcz i pass contribute :D
<head_victim> We would also like to see that if your main contributions are loco efforts than there should be multiple people in your loco giving you testimonials and mentioning specifics abotu how you contribute
<head_victim> So for example "kokoye is great, I went to the event he organised in my local city. There were 20 people there who learnt all about Ubuntu and a good time was had by all"
<kokoye2007> bcz now check my event and contribute. but without record :S anyway thx u head_victim
<kokoye2007> my record is only photo :S http://www.flickr.com/photos/87236530@N07/8038236817/in/pool-ubuntu-mm head_victim
<kokoye2007> thx for your kindly help
<head_victim> kokoye2007: photos are great :)
<kokoye2007> http://www.flickr.com/photos/bonepyae/6285742562/in/pool-ubuntu-mm
<head_victim> So is that you giving a lecture?
<kokoye2007> yes head_victim
<head_victim> Ok cool
<head_victim> Was that event listed on the loco portal?
<kokoye2007> http://www.flickr.com/photos/87236530@N07/8010380921/in/pool-ubuntu-mm is Barcamp is approve me
<kokoye2007> yes head_victim
<kokoye2007> :(
<head_victim> Cool, wel this shoudl be easy
<kokoye2007> it;s a last event http://www.flickr.com/photos/87236530@N07/8038254589/in/pool-ubuntu-mm
<head_victim> On your wiki page I'd start a list of contributions
<kokoye2007> now try to next event at City ICT show and Ubuntu Distribution and Introdution
<head_victim> And what I'd do is say "This is a photo of me presenting at *insert event name and link to loco.ubuntu.com event* - *link to photo*"
<kokoye2007> Nov 23 is 4th yrs (since 2009)
<kokoye2007> thx head_victim
<head_victim> Ok, so the criteria for membership is significant and sustained. So looking at those photos I'd say that's significant effort to get that many people to an event. So all you need to do is show that that effort is sustained.
<head_victim> Have you continued to run events or are they all from 2009?
<kokoye2007> now our country at Ubuntu is most popular
<kokoye2007> but M$ Windows is Many user but next 2013 last Weeks at move of 30% us change to Ubuntu (with me)
<kokoye2007> start from 2009
<kokoye2007> last event is 17-18 Nov
<kokoye2007> next event is 23-24 Nov
<hggdh> zequence, vibhav, linaporras: I have added you as members of the ubuntumembers LP team
<kokoye2007> nice zequence vibhav for Happy
<head_victim> kokoye2007: well that is great :)
<kokoye2007> http://www.flickr.com/photos/87236530@N07/8038236817/in/pool-ubuntu-mm is 12.10 Promotion and Training
<kokoye2007> now we open Un-Official Ubuntu Office for Myanmar
<head_victim> So if you could get a few of your events listed to show how you've been involved (organising, presenting, attending)  and the photos that would be great
<kokoye2007> free dvd iso internet access for ubuntu user / beginner / dev; head_victim
<kokoye2007> all event is host by me and my friend (i mean never without me)
<head_victim> If you could then get a few of the loco team members to support the application and vouch for your efforts that would make it even easier
<kokoye2007> it's just Core Member http://www.flickr.com/photos/87236530@N07/8005859035/in/pool-ubuntu-mm
<head_victim> It sounds to me like you're definitely a suitable candidate so we just need to be able to see that more clearly.
<Pendulum> kokoye2007: also, if your LoCo members don't know English, it's okay for them to write their testimonials in a language they do know :)
<head_victim> Google translate is my friend, I have no idea what language lina's application details were in but google translate gave it to me in words I understood
<kokoye2007> it's Ok ?
<kokoye2007> i can't approve our loco member
<kokoye2007> :(
<kokoye2007> it's a wrong ?
<vibhav> head_victim: What about the @ubuntu.com email address?
<kokoye2007> google is can't translate our language bro
<head_victim> vibhav: that's automatic but can take a couple of days. It's linked to your launchpad account name
<kokoye2007> now testimonials is only other country or other team
<head_victim> kokoye2007: enough to get the gist of the message through usually
<head_victim> kokoye2007: do you think I've been able to explain what it is we're looking for a bit better?
<head_victim> I'm just making sure I've made sense
<head_victim> If it is a lot clearer now what I was going to suggest was that you revise your application on the wiki page and then send it to me (or the board mailing list) so we can review it and provide more feedback if needed.
<kokoye2007> so can  testimonials from our country / our loco team member
<kokoye2007> ?
<head_victim> kokoye2007: yes, anyone who can provide evidence that what you say you have done has actually been done is great
<kokoye2007> ohh my god, head_victim thx u i am wrong thinking :S
<head_victim> We do like for people to sign the testimonials so we can verify who they are
<vibhav> head_victim: ah, thanks!
<Pendulum> kokoye2007: we'd love testimonials from your country/LoCo team members. Also, we can find people to translate if we need to (since I think what you've been saying is that Google translate doesn't have most of the language(s) your LoCo members know)
<kokoye2007> so i can try next meeting or waiting time
<kokoye2007>  ?
<kokoye2007> thx for helpful with head_victim
<head_victim> kokoye2007: I"m happy for you to reapply when you're ready, if that's next month that's great.
<Pendulum> I agree with head_victim :)
<head_victim> kokoye2007: please feel free to email me - jarednorris@ubuntu.com if you want me to have another look at the application before the next meeting
<kokoye2007> thx head_victim Pendulum sorry for my poor language
<kokoye2007> see ya at next meeting :S
<vibhav> kokoye2007: Theres always a next chance. You contributions were perfect, all you need is a better way to represent yourself
<head_victim> kokoye2007: no don't worry about language, we're just sorry we didn't explain it well on the wiki that you understood it to start with
<kokoye2007> vibhav: thx for favor ;)
<Pendulum> kokoye2007: if you want another eye past head_victim's I'm also reachable at pendulum@ubuntu.com :)
<kokoye2007> ha ha i add to contact list :P private list
<kokoye2007> :D
<Pendulum> sorry, that was probably a bit too full of English sayings. If you want even more feedback, is all I meant :)
<kokoye2007> ok see ya next meeting i am hungry and sorry about my self :S
<kokoye2007> good bye take care Pendulum head_victim vibhav see ya
<andresmmujica> Hi, I wasn't able to connect earlier.. anyone knows if linaporras was accepted as an Ubuntu Member ?
<head_victim> andresmmujica: she was successful :)
<andresmmujica> ohhh nice!!!  she really is a great asset for Ubuntu!!!
 * andresmmujica dances
<andresmmujica> bye thank you head_victim !!
<head_victim> andresmmujica: we agree :) She looks like she's working hard in the loco over there
<head_victim> andresmmujica: see you later :)
<andresmmujica> head_victim: totally. She works really hard, she is totally committed, I'm really happy thanks!
<andresmmujica> bye everyone
<ogra_> foople
<barry> mott the foople
<cjwatson> bingely bingely bong
<cjwatson> lots of people on holiday, and infinity sent apologies
<cjwatson> actually not as many on holiday as I expected, looks like just Steve and Brian
<cjwatson> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Nov 21 16:02:07 2012 UTC.  The chair is cjwatson. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<cjwatson> #topic lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: lightning round
<cjwatson> $ echo $(shuf -e barry cjwatson ev doko ogra_ jodh stgraber xnox stokachu)
<cjwatson> stgraber ev barry stokachu jodh cjwatson xnox ogra_ doko
<stgraber>  - Upstart
<stgraber>   - Spent some time talking with James and Dmitrijs talking about the plan for the Session Init work
<stgraber>   - Implemented a basic upstart-dconf-bridge at: lp:~stgraber/upstart/upstart-dconf-bridge
<stgraber>  - Container
<stgraber>   - Reviewed a bunch of merge proposals and patches on the upstream mailing-list.
<stgraber>   - Had a look at the early implementation of the syslog namespace by Serge.
<stgraber>   - Wrote a script to run Steam under LXC: http://www.stgraber.org/2012/11/16/running-steam-in-a-lxc-container/
<stgraber>  - QA Tracker
<stgraber>   - Did a bunch of optimization work on how the tracker loads its various plugins.
<stgraber>   - Redesigned landing page (milestones list) to be filtered by javascript and show milestones grouped by series.
<stgraber>   - Added a new testsuites list per balloons' request
<stgraber>   - Fixed a bunch more php errors, now replaced by nice 404s :)
<stgraber>  - Other
<stgraber>   - Helped the security team by extracting all my SecureBoot keys out of my system (ended up being much more tricky than expected).
<stgraber>   - sssd was broken by a new ldb upload, breaking authentication on most of my systems.
<stgraber>   - The new linux-libc-dev broke libnl breaking the sssd rebuild I had to do.
<stgraber>   - Had to patch libnl to cope with some defines rename in the 3.7 kernel, then managed to rebuild sssd and login on my systems again.
<stgraber>   - Uploaded the new sudo upstream release including sssd support.
<stgraber>  - Installer
<stgraber>   - Fixed casper which was trying to boot an ltsp chroot instead of a the livefs on Edubuntu.
<stgraber>   - Investigated bug 1079266 and bug 1077598. Was suspecting a Wubi 10.04 to Wubi 12.04 upgrade issue but that's not the case.
<stgraber>     Tried to reproduce with identical package list, still without any luck. Will have to ask for more information...
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1077598 in casper (Ubuntu) "duplicate for #1079266 package plymouth 0.8.2-2ubuntu30 failed to install/upgrade: dependency problems - leaving unconfigured" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1077598
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1077598 in casper (Ubuntu) "package plymouth 0.8.2-2ubuntu30 failed to install/upgrade: dependency problems - leaving unconfigured" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1077598
<stgraber>  - Release
<stgraber>   - Filed RT ticket to get scripting access to https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuHashes from nusakan.
<stgraber>  - TODO
<stgraber>   - Look at jodh's upstart specs.
<stgraber> (DONE)
<ev> - Short week. I took holiday on Monday to move into my new house. \o/
<ev> - Removed the dependency on archive.admin.canonical.com so hazmat can
<ev>   debug the juju issue in the daisy and rabbitmq charms.
<ev> - Attended an Acunu webinar on Hailo's use of Cassandra, specifically
<ev>   Analytics. Lots of really good points on how to best decide when to NIH a
<ev>   tool or pick up a product.
<ev> - Uploaded fixed activity-log-manager to quantal and precise (LP: #993056).
<ev> - Fixed up my branch to add openid authentication to
<ev>   http://errors.ubuntu.com/oops-local and submitted it to webops.
<ev> - Finally finished verifying the USB disk for the shop.
<ev> - Picked back up my compiz branch for spawning apport when applications hang.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 993056 in activity-log-manager (Ubuntu Quantal) ""Privacy" > "Diagnostics" > "Send error reports" can't be turned on or off" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/993056
<ev> - Started looking at package installation failures as an error type again.
<ev>   We're collecting these right now (5883 total reports on 09/11/12), and we are
<ev>   in fact bucketing them: http://tinyurl.com/blsqa3a
<ev> - Mail to Steve and Matthew on conffile prompts as errors.
<ev> - Fix to apport for fsync'ing upstart reports, per our email discussion:
<ev>   https://code.launchpad.net/~ev/apport/fsync-upstart-crashes/+merge/135134
<ev> - UDS survey.
<ev> - Teaching daisy retracer code to use a squid cache, rather than locally
<ev>   caching the debs. The previous behavior was a significant part of the
<ev>   retracer disk space growth. With this change, the webops team should be
<ev>   getting fewer weekend pages to clear the caches.
<ev> - Attempting to fix having separate application thread crash dialogs:
<ev>   https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/apport/+bug/1033902
<ev>   The simple approach is to see if the pid is still around by the time
<ev>   apport-gtk gets the error report, but I want to make sure that's not racey.
<ev> (done)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1033902 in apport (Ubuntu) "Application thread crash shows application crash error alert" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<barry> tox packaging for debian (in the new queue now, will be synced to ubuntu when that lands). worked on virtualenv 1.8.2, but that isn't compatible with python 3.3, so worked with upstream to get a 1.8.3 which is Python 3.3 compatible (might even land today).  distribute 0.6.30, for Python 3.3 compatibility.  python-oauthlib 0.3.4.  python bug 16514 (sys.path import regression in Python 3.3).  more investigation on bug #1061149.  merge
<barry> proposal for bug #1077083 (piston-mini-client -> oauthlib).  preliminary review of pykde4 plugin system for porting to py3.  dmb meeting.  upgraded main dev box to raring.  off this thu and fri for usa thanksgiving holiday.  done.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 16514 in hfsutils (Ubuntu) "hfsutils: new changes from Debian require merging" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/16514
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1061149 in linux (Ubuntu) "boot occasionally hangs while "Checking battery state..."" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1061149
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1077083 in piston-mini-client "Switch from python-oauth to python-oauthlib" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1077083
<stokachu> bug 932860 needs sru review
<stokachu> bug 1077095 needs sru review
<stokachu> bug 967091 needs sru review
<stokachu> (done)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 932860 in appmenu-gtk (Ubuntu Quantal) "Broken (or missing) multiarch support" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/932860
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1077095 in appmenu-gtk (Ubuntu Quantal) "Please blacklist "IBM Notes"" [Low,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1077095
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 967091 in libvdpau (Ubuntu Precise) "Wrong tint in flash when it uses video acceleration" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/967091
<jodh> * upstart:
<jodh>   - fixed bug 1079710.
<jodh>   - fixed bug 1079715 and raised MP.
<jodh>   - completed work on SRU bug 980917 and uploaded to precise-proposed.
<jodh>   - spec wrangling with stgraber + xnox (and a loooong meeting ;-):
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1079710 in upstart "Chroot jobs which produce output get logged to /var/log/upstart *outside* the chroot" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1079710
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1079715 in upstart "'telinit u' run from within a chroot causes a crash" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1079715
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 980917 in upstart (Ubuntu Precise) "Failed to create pty - disabling logging for job [SRU]" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/980917
<cjwatson> stgraber: SB keys> Have you been able to use this to get anywhere with debugging shim?
<jodh>     https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/Specs/RaringUpstartUserSessions
<jodh> * TODO:
<jodh>   - rework branch and discuss dbus_connection_open_from_fd() with D-Bus upstream.
<jodh>   - resolve Upstart namespacing design (as currently being discussed on
<jodh>     the mailing lists).
<jodh>   - start work on implementing spec above with stgraber + xnox.
<jodh> â¾
<stokachu> lol mario bros?
<cjwatson> ev: congrats on the new house
<cjwatson> Still working on Secure Boot backports to 12.04.2.  debian-installer mostly done (in ppa:cjwatson/ppa), but GRUB is reporting spurious out-of-memory errors, so I've had to sidetrack into investigating that.
<cjwatson> Worked on cross-autobuilder.
<cjwatson>  * Mainly involved teaching myself lots about juju.
<cjwatson>  * This now works and, with four sbuild units attached, can build - or fail to build - quantal+raring main for armhf in around a day.
<stgraber> cjwatson: not yet, but now that I have a working efivars filesystem, I should be able to add entries to the db while in setup mode, which should let me do local builds of the shim and use that for testing. Will add that to my todo, can hopefully spend some time on it this week
<cjwatson>  * About 27% of quantal main cross-builds; raring has regressed slightly, at 26.7%.
<cjwatson>  * Next step is to arrange to publish the results.
<cjwatson> Patch pilot half-day on Friday.
<cjwatson> Detailed discussion with Martin and Jean-Baptiste of plans for proposed-migration/autopkgtest integration.
<cjwatson> Fixed various build failures: debian-installer, mpdris2, prelude-manager.
<cjwatson> Fixed most of python-apt's autopkgtest failures.  Martin fixed the last bits.
<cjwatson> Fixed a mismerge of a cross-build-dependency handling patch in apt.
<cjwatson> Marked gnome-desktop3-data Multi-Arch: foreign, spotted in cross-autobuilder results.
<cjwatson> Rearranged cdimage to make it safe to build for multiple series in parallel (rather belatedly).  Spent some of today tracking down a consequential failure.
<cjwatson> ..
<xnox> * investigating bug 988055
<xnox> reproduced on lucid and got valgrind output with debug symbols
<xnox> http://paste.ubuntu.com/1374772/
<xnox> Reading that I am a bit lost between rpcsecgss, libgluegss & krb5.
<xnox> Each layer seems to allocate memory on initial connection and I am
<xnox> failing to trace where it is not freed.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 988055 in nfs-utils (Ubuntu Lucid) "rpc.gssd memory leak" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/988055
<xnox> * Devices FS: flashbench is now in raring & profiled my sd-cards/memory sticks.
<xnox> got back f2fs i386/amd64 from ogasawara, the arm builds failed.
<xnox> TODO benchmark aligned f2fs on i386/amd64 & investigate arm FTBFS
<xnox> * ongoing upstart user sessions discussions
<xnox> * finished clucene transition (3 packages) britney output should be
<xnox> smaller now
<xnox> * bug 837064 / rt 55554 is in progress of being deployed. A deployment
<ubottu> Error: Launchpad bug 837064 could not be found
<xnox> was attempted on the lucid-based host, which failed because my patch
<xnox> was targeting quantal's psycopg2. Now fixed & pending redeployment.
<stokachu> xnox: join the clue on that rpc mess
<xnox> * mdadm merge is in progress.
<xnox> * plymouth needs a rebuild against (now in raring)
<xnox> libdrm_nouveau2. But it FTBFS bug 1081613.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1081613 in plymouth (Ubuntu Raring) "FTBFS in raring-proposed (libdrm_nouveau 2)" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1081613
<xnox> ..
<stokachu> club*
<xnox> stokachu: i have a rabit hole diagram in my notepad. I am suspecting it will be rpcsecgss in the end.
<ogra_> done:
<ogra_>  * nexus7 images are available under http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/daily-preinstalled/current/ (still a bit buggy but soon to be fully usable)
<ogra_>  * various ac100-tarball-installer fixes (need to drop the arch name soon and make it more generic)
<ogra_>  * started working on an ubuntu-default-settings-nexus7 package
<ogra_>  * more plymouth debugging
<ogra_> todo:
<stokachu> xnox: if i get some free time ill keep looking into it as well
<ogra_>  * set up a regular meeting for discussing the remaining WIs of https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/desktop-r-reduced-power-ram
<ogra_>  * flash-kernel fixes
<ogra_> ..
<ev> cjwatson: thanks!
<doko> - mostly a GCC week
<doko> - getting the target specific bits into upstream, only outstanding are alpha, ia
<doko> 64, m68k
<doko> - packaged gcc-4.8, updated all local patches, new runtime libraries libatomic a
<doko> nd libasan
<stokachu> cjwatson: i really need to get the appmenu-gtk m-a sru'd as soon as possible if anyone could help me out
<doko> - found out the 4.8 build is broken when making -Wformat-security the default
<doko> - found out the 4.8 build is broken with -fstack-protector on armhf and powerpc
<doko> (PR53475)
<doko> - prepared backports of the multiarch patches for upstream inclusion
<doko> - llvm-3.2 in raring, fixed clang ftbfs
<doko> - binutils update
<stokachu> the other 2 are not so important
<doko> (done)
<cjwatson> stokachu: fair enough, I'll take another look
<stokachu> thanks :D
<doko> s/bits/multiarch bits/
<cjwatson> will have to refresh my memory of the previous go-around
<cjwatson> #topic bugs
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: bugs
<cjwatson> Brian's not here, but anything else people want to particularly raise?  Otherwise we can finish early :-)
<stokachu> cjwatson: i basically used your suggestion but did it in a way that conf files were not conflicting during parallel installs
<cjwatson> ok, I'll take a look
 * ogra_ has bug 1080747
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1080747 in livecd-rootfs (Ubuntu) "Set a build stamp for pre-installed images" [Medium,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1080747
<ogra_> i'm not really sure what to do with it, the livefs builder doesnt know anything about the build name when rolling the rootfs
<cjwatson> You'll need a .disk directory somewhere or similar
<ogra_> i could just randomly dump a unix timestamp into some file i guess but that seems ugly
<cjwatson> It doesn't and can't belong in the livefs
<ogra_> well, i have nothing processing that
<ogra_> its either rootfs or initrd i can put stuff in
<ogra_> and by design they come finished out of live-build
<cjwatson> well in that case I guess the livefs builder may have to invent its own build ids ...
<ogra_> thats my prob with this bug :)
<ogra_> so unix timestamp into some fiel then, ok
<ogra_> *file
<ogra_> thx
<cjwatson> unix timestamp is a bit unfriendly.  I'd use YYYYMMDD HH:MM:SS or some such
<ogra_> k
<cjwatson> that way it at least stands a chance of corresponding approximately to something on cdimage
<ogra_> heh, yeah
<cjwatson> try to make it look as much like other media-info files as you can, if possible
<ogra_> tehoretically cdimage should know what it will become in the end, no ?
<ogra_> we coudl look it up in advance and hand it to the live builder as BuildLiveCD arg
<ogra_> (not for now, but as a general fix)
<xnox> ... as long as ubuntu-bug ubiquity works and hands over a sensible id that we can identify all is fine.
<ogra_> i'll use the std apport path /var/log/installer/media-info
<cjwatson> not with the way buildlive is currently (mis)designed
<ogra_> so apport will even pick it up
<cjwatson> it runs before cdimage has picked a build id
<ogra_> cjwatson, well, good for the next redesign then :)  i didnt mean we need it now, a hack will do for me
<cjwatson> anything else?
<ogra_> not here
<xnox>  bug 1081613 that I mentioned, but it's not urgent.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1081613 in plymouth (Ubuntu Raring) "FTBFS in raring-proposed (libdrm_nouveau 2)" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1081613
<cjwatson> yeah, I was hoping to constructively ignore that until Steve is back ;-)
<xnox> simply britney prints 8000 package uninstallable because of libdrm
<ogra_> we need to update plymouth to 0.8.5 anyway
<xnox> so if anyone wants short britney output.... feel free to update plymouth =)
<ogra_> slangasek said it wouldnt be an easy merge though, seems we package our own upstream
<xnox> there was a proposal with 0.8.6.1 but it's not a clean debdiff.
<cjwatson> OK, sounds like that's everything for now, thanks all
<cjwatson> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Nov 21 16:32:14 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-11-21-16.02.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-11-21-16.02.html
 * ogra_ commented
<barry> cjwatson: thanks
<ogra_> thanks cjwatson
<ev> thanks
 * cjwatson re-enters GRUB memory management hell
<ev> heh
<jodh> thanks
<xnox> cheers
<stgraber> thanks
<Riddell> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Nov 21 17:00:15 2012 UTC.  The chair is Riddell. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<yofel_> o/
<ScottK> \o
<Riddell> hi friends, who here for a Kubuntu meeting?
<BluesKaj> just arrived
<Riddell> harald has put a bunch of items on the agenda but isn't here
<BluesKaj> uhoh , gotta go ... wife just reminded me of our band meeting in less than an hr ...later gents
<Riddell> #topic raring UDS work items
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: raring UDS work items
<Riddell> a smallish meeting then
<Riddell> who's all read the work items?
<Riddell> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/topic-raring-flavor-kubuntu
<Riddell> or should I reschedule if it's just me and ScottK from the council?
<JontheEchidna> (I'm here too)
<Riddell> oh yes sorry
<JontheEchidna> ;)
 * agateau is here for the meeting as well (but not from council)
<JontheEchidna> Do we have a set quorum for these meetings?
<Riddell> 3 council members on votes
<ScottK> So we're good then.
<ScottK> Let's go.
<Riddell> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/desktop-r-kubuntu-deferred
<Riddell> anything anyone doesn't understand there?
<Riddell> last time we had some work items that 6 months later we'd forgotten entirely what they mean
<ScottK> ScottK's unique konsole string isn't an issue for raring.
<ScottK> It's upstream in 4.10.
 * ScottK fixes
<JontheEchidna> ^was about to ask about that
<Riddell> we might still have some other patched in strings?
<ScottK> Yes.
<ScottK> We do.  I didn't remove the whole item, just that bit.
<Riddell> groovy
<JontheEchidna> py3kde kcontrol integration is still relevant
 * ScottK has no idea about steveriley's item, but as long as he does.
<Riddell> JontheEchidna: yes, that's why it's there
<ScottK> JontheEchidna: I think I have a volunteer as well.
<yofel> isn't the kuser work item and the one below it pretty much the same thing?
<JontheEchidna> nice
<yofel> ScottK: samba in win7 is weird and has more than one group, needs some investigation
<JontheEchidna> at the very least, the kuser vs. userconfig comparison doesn't seem very actionable as a work item
<ScottK> yofel: Thanks.
<ScottK> I'd say delete the comparison one
<ScottK> afiestas is going to do a rewrite, so it's OBE.
<Riddell> Quintasan: ok?
<Riddell> I guess he's not here
<Riddell> ok removed
<ScottK> It'd still be groovy for him to help with design of the rewrite.
<Riddell> that's why it's not allocated just to him :)
<Riddell> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/desktop-r-kubuntu-packaging
<Riddell> I'll change KDE SC 4.10 to INPROGRESS
<JontheEchidna> looks like canonical's Qt5 packages are now based on debian's
<Riddell> "Investigate with CÃ©dric Bellegarde about packaging appmenu kded" that's actually part of sc 4.10
<Riddell> JontheEchidna: oh interesting
<ScottK> Possibly related to why fabo's work item on packaging Qt5 flipped to in progress.
<Riddell> ok that all seems uncontrovertial
<Riddell> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/desktop-r-kubuntu-development
<JontheEchidna> what's the bit about simon and a proprietary library?
<Riddell> simon uses a proprietary library for something but it's optional
<Riddell> so should be fine to package (as far as we could work out in the session)
<Tm_T> "something"?
<JontheEchidna> is it dsfg-compliant as it stands right now?
<JontheEchidna> *dfsg
<jussi> Im here!
<yofel> hm, isn't the touchpad KCM work item from the deferred list a dup of the synaptics work item from packaging?
<Tm_T> jussi: yes you are!
<Riddell> JontheEchidna: it's not packaged
<Riddell> yofel: yes quite probably
<fabo> ScottK: that's right, zoltan is working with me on them and push on qt5 edgers ppa
<Riddell> fabo: great
<shadeslayer> in order to use the proprietary lib, you also need to sign up on some site
<JontheEchidna> oh, I thought it was packaged for some reason...
<shadeslayer> atleast that's what came up during the session
<fabo> Riddell: the deadline is by the end of the month
<yofel> shadeslayer: mind if I drop your old touchpad kcm work item? we seem to have 2 new ones
<fabo> they should be ready for upload to the official archive
<shadeslayer> sure
<Riddell> yofel: go for it, he can steal it back if he wants to
<yofel> done
<Riddell> I'll be impressed if the ibus item gets done
<yofel> hm, development has a 3rd touchpad kcm work item
<jussi> Thats pretty important though, isnt it?
<shadeslayer> hehe
<Riddell> yofel: everyone wants to get in on the act
<yofel> sure, except one's assigned to ScottK, one to kubuntu-dev and the last to afiestas
<ScottK> Feel free to do anything assigned to me.
<yofel> noted
<Quintasan> uhh
<Riddell> let's have only 1 on packaging
<Riddell> yofel: you editing or shall I?
 * Quintasan is totally late
<yofel> Riddell: I'm not editing anything right now
<Quintasan> One item less for me? Sound fine.
<Riddell> ok
<yofel> well, we all know that you're busy with maliit :P
<Riddell> steveriley have bravely volunteered for all the docs
<Riddell> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/desktop-r-kubuntu-docs
 * Quintasan orders a round of applause for Steve
<Riddell> jussi: you can take the credit on that mailing list item if you want
<jussi> hehe, yeah, i did that...
<jussi> but it was all of like 3 minutes work
<Riddell> nothing too major on images
<Riddell> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/desktop-r-kubuntu-images
<Riddell> except we want nexus images
<Tm_T> jussi: work nonetheless
<jussi> Ive still a question, they asked us to put it on our council wiki page, but all I could find was this: https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/Council which says i shouldnt change it...
<Tm_T> Riddell: I try talk one nexus7 for myself, then there's one real-life testing going on when we get the image rolling
<Quintasan> Nexus images eh?
<jussi> I would do some nexus tessting if one was given, Im more than interested, but my funds are limited at the moment. so if a lend comes up, let me know.
<Quintasan> Riddell: AFAIR ogra_ said it would be possible to spin Kubuntu images as long as we get the seed fixed
<Riddell> jussi: feel free to add in an introduction with the link to that and the launchpad team
<jussi> hrm?
<yofel> Quintasan: we do currently have omap4 dailies for raring do we need anything else?
<Riddell> Quintasan: yep, we hope he will
<Quintasan> yofel: OMAP4 != Tegra 3 AFAIR
<yofel> ah
<Quintasan> but don't quote me on that
<ogra-cb_> kubuntu active nexus7 dailies are planned, but we are currently a) not even having ubuntu ones (should be finished this week) and b) are massively short on buildd time
<Quintasan> since I'm not really knowlegable on that matter
<Quintasan> ogra-cb_: I can imagine that
<ogra-cb_> we onlz have a single live builder for arm, while work is going on to abuse the package builders dynamically for that it wasnt scheduled for early raring
<Riddell> thanks ogra-cb_, we're not wanting to rush it :)
<ogra-cb_> what i coudl offer in the beginning (since all other flavours asked too) would probably be something with a lower frequency than daily
<Quintasan> ogra-cb_: What Riddell said, besides there is still some work to do before we even start thinking about images IMO
<ogra-cb_> so that no flavour has to come short
<Quintasan> like Active 3 packaging and more importantly - fixing the seed
<ogra-cb_> k
<Riddell> which brings us onto https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/desktop-r-kubuntu-active
<ogra-cb_> well, ubuntu dailies should be ready from end of the week, then i will have time to help with other flavours
<Riddell> rbelem actually popped up last night and said he wants to get back into it
<ogra-cb_> just give me a shout once you want them
<Quintasan> ogra-cb_: Will do
<ScottK> ogra-cb_: Thanks.
<Riddell> Quintasan: do you know what upstream's consideration of mallit is?
<Riddell> maliit
<Quintasan> You might want to rephrase that since I'm not sure what you actually want to know
<shadeslayer> Aaron said that maliit is what active will use
<Riddell> Quintasan: do plasma-active have any maliit integration?
<Riddell> groovy
<Riddell> so any more comments on the work items?
<shadeslayer> came up when I asked him about plasma keyboards ...
<Riddell> if there's no more comments we can vote
<jussi> Riddell: [kubuntu-dev] create good communications with plasma active upstream: TODO
<jussi> what are we actually doing there?
<Riddell> jussi: requested by afiestas
<jussi> How are we acheiving it?
<Riddell> well if I was packaging active I'd join the channel and talk to developers as I tested it
<Quintasan> I suggested to mikhas that we push maliit into Debian as well but that's another matter and I will have to ask ScottK if he can help with that
<Quintasan> But that has to wait until I'm done with the package itself
<afiestas> jussi: that point came out because it seems that there are soime tricky parts when packaging active
<afiestas> and we had no idea about those tricks,  we should askj :p and not be ashame of asking xd
<Riddell> #vote agree on work items for kubuntu raring
<meetingology> Please vote on: agree on work items for kubuntu raring
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<jussi> afiestas: ok, I am just trying to understand what the route to getting to [done] is
<ScottK> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from ScottK
<Riddell> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Riddell
<jussi> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from jussi
<shadeslayer> +1
<Riddell> JontheEchidna: ?
<meetingology> +1 received from shadeslayer
<afiestas> jussi: simply by not being shy and asking questions when needed should be enough
<JontheEchidna> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from JontheEchidna
<jussi> afiestas: ok, good
<Riddell> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: agree on work items for kubuntu raring
<meetingology> Votes for:5 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<Riddell> yay, I worked out how to use the bot
<JontheEchidna> ^action item GET :P
<Riddell> #topic membership
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: membership
<shadeslayer> hehe
<Riddell> we have a membership applications
<Riddell> from afiestas
<Quintasan> Woah
<jussi> oh god no... not him!! :P
<Riddell> afiestas: who are you and why do you want to be a kubuntu member?
 * Quintasan throws bricks at jussi
<Quintasan> Sssh!
<afiestas> My name is Ãlex Fiestas (Alejandro Fiestas Olivares legally, you know spanish long names xD)
<afiestas> I'm a KDE developer, working on different areas such hardware integration, kdelibs, and some other miscelania
<afiestas> because of the state of KDE4 hardware integration I felt forced to empower my communication with distributions af ew years back, basically reviewing how distros were packaging my software and try to make it work best in all of them (specially bluedevilk and networkmanagement)
<Riddell> time to quiz afiestas
<afiestas> from that, I became fond of Kubuntu, felt welcomed here, etc :)
<afiestas> oh, why I want to become a kubuntu member
<jussi> afiestas: what do you feel you do specifically for kubuntu? (as opposed to general kde work)
<afiestas> I have been collaborating with Kubuntu for a few years now, 4/5 uds helping to improve the collaboration and communication between what's know as upstream and downstream
<ScottK> Plus he had dinner with us when UDS was in Barcelona.
<afiestas> I do Kubuntu testing (as I said before, specially checking my software) and try to give as much feedback as possible, and being as annoying as possible
 * Quintasan likes the latter part of that statement
<jussi> very important that :P
<Riddell> afiestas: how well do we compare to other distros as a faithful implementation of KDE?
<afiestas> the distribution doing more QA, and the more stable is opensuse imho, they have people getting paid to do that (afaik), we have been able to seen this specialy in Kontact or in networkmanagement in the past (where they had ppl working)
<afiestas> suse though is spoiled by YAST, so they are not offering a KDE experience but their own
<Riddell> yeah QA goes well with community only people but only to a point
<afiestas> Kubuntu in the other side had a dark past full of patches, but nowdays you have the moto of being "As much as KDE as possible" being the only ones shipping with rekonq for example
<Riddell> it's why canonical has been upping the QA on ubuntu
<afiestas> which makes Kubuntu right now one of the "purest" KDE experencie
<jussi> afiestas: is there anything in particular you have mind to achieve in the future with us? Any particular goals?
<afiestas> jussi: yes, quite a few
<buzzmandt> I love rekonq, it's so almost there
<afiestas> I want Kubuntu to become the reference distribution for developers, it MUST be the tool I can recommend to others to start
<afiestas> I want to improve QA, by making developers check their software in Kubuntu, as I did with bluedevil and proven to be helpful
<afiestas> I want to help with a different (not packager, not community but developer) PoV in all processes I'm now critic with
<afiestas> like for example, STAGING, updates, etc
<Riddell> #vote afiestas for kubuntu member
<meetingology> Please vote on: afiestas for kubuntu member
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<Riddell> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Riddell
<ScottK> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from ScottK
<jussi> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from jussi
<buzzmandt> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from buzzmandt
<ScottK> buzzmandt: Only Kubutu Council can vote on this.
<Riddell> JontheEchidna: nudge
<xnox> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from xnox
<JontheEchidna> sorry!
<JontheEchidna> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from JontheEchidna
 * xnox trolling =)
<Riddell> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: afiestas for kubuntu member
<meetingology> Votes for:6 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<JontheEchidna> :P
<Riddell> afiestas: welcome in!
 * Quintasan throws confetti at afiestas
<jussi> afiestas: welcome!
<Quintasan> Grats
<afiestas> thanks you for trusting me :p
<Tm_T> afiestas: welcome! (:
<ScottK> Riddell: Will you do the send an email thing to the CC and cc Mark.
<agateau> yay!
<Riddell> ScottK: yeah can do
<ScottK> Great.
<Tm_T> ScottK: Riddell: also to news team
<shadeslayer> afiestas: congrats ;)
<Riddell> #topic Kubuntu business cards and nexuses?
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Kubuntu business cards and nexuses?
<Quintasan> business cards!
<Riddell> I was thinking how to use the kubuntu funds to best help kubuntu
<Riddell> business cards for kubuntu members was 1 idea
 * Quintasan always wanted a business card
<yofel> +1
<Riddell> the printers local to me charge Â£32 for 500
<shadeslayer> well ... needs awesome design
<Riddell> KDE and Canonical both do them
<ScottK> OK.
<shadeslayer> Riddell: I could ask spacetime for a quote as well :)
<Quintasan> but I couldn't find a design plus I have absloutely no idea what's the standard size
<shadeslayer> ( our sticker guy )
<afiestas> from experience, I have needed KDE ones quite a few times buecause I feel really bad giving one of my business card (from my business or the company I work for)
<Riddell> shadeslayer: that would be good
<afiestas> having a community business card rocks
<Tm_T> I'm all for business cards
<Tm_T> afiestas: indeed
<Quintasan> Do we have a design?
<shadeslayer> Riddell: will do once I get back to India
<Tm_T> afiestas: I had to hand out my work cards at UDS, so I didn't hand out many
<yofel> Quintasan: don't think so, and I gave up on my attempt to make one
<ScottK> Riddell: I'd say let's get a design and a price and then see if this makes sense.
<shadeslayer> there was a good design on the wiki once, cannot find it anymore
<Riddell> Quintasan: we don't have any designers at the moment, I'm thinking just a logo + name + gpg key
<Quintasan> Riddell: phone and email optional?
<yofel> a simple design with the current font and logo and otherwise black/white would be enough IMO
<Quintasan> maybe just email
<Riddell> Quintasan: oh yes that too
<Quintasan> gpg keys seems nice too
<yofel> gpg key should be there (short at least if the fingerprint doesn't fit)
<Riddell> gpg fingerprint is a common use case I have for them, it's why I've never got KDE ones
<Riddell> ok I'll ask on the mailing list who wants them, limit it to kubuntu members only, and make a design and get a price
<Riddell> my other thinking was there's a need to have nexuses
<shadeslayer> afaik there's a policy that only members get cards ;)
<yofel> there is
<Riddell> does it make sense to buy some for people who will actively help make good kubuntu images
<yofel> or was at least, haven't checked in years
<Quintasan> Riddell: We should get the design uploaded somewhere so people can print those themselves if they ever run out
<Riddell> ?
<JontheEchidna> I just realized that although I have a bunch of Ubuntu people's gpg keys, I don't have any Kubuntu dudes
<JontheEchidna> we should do a keysigning sometime
<Riddell> that needs you to come to UDS!
<JontheEchidna> yeah, yeah :(
<JontheEchidna> stupid school
<ScottK> Or stop by my house next time on your way to Virginia.
<JontheEchidna> keysigning party at Scott's house!
<JontheEchidna> :P
<Tm_T> Riddell: considering that nexus isn't that expensive, it wouldn't hurt to get a few
<Quintasan> JontheEchidna: You're buying me a plane ticket :P
<Riddell> ahem, topic ^^
<JontheEchidna> soz ^^
<ScottK> Well.
<Quintasan> Sorry. Back on the topic, yeah Nexus would be good reference platform I THINK
<yofel> jussi said that he wouldn't mind a nexus
 * Quintasan remembers the problems with TF101
<Quintasan> yofel: I don't think anyone would mind one
<Quintasan> :P
<ScottK> About hardware: I think Nexus7 is the right target, but are people really going to do the work.
<shadeslayer> ^
<yofel> I already have one
<shadeslayer> its a fun project, but I don't think I will have the time to hack on it alot ....
<shadeslayer> already have a TF101, which kind of works ....
<yofel> we should probably discuss that on the ML once we have something that actually installs and runs
<Quintasan> +1 yofel
<shadeslayer> *nod*
 * shadeslayer has to leave now
<shadeslayer> cya
<jussi> ScottK: I will commit to doing testing at lease 3 times a week.
 * ScottK suggests we get active packaged before spending money on hardware to test it.
<jussi> ScottK: yes
<yofel> ack
<jussi> Also, I would suggest we think about giving them as a lend and circulating them if people don't have time.
<jussi> either you do something with it or you lose it
<Riddell> yeah
<Riddell> ok no immediate enthusiam we'll come back to that later
<Riddell> #endtopic
<Riddell> or something
<Riddell> any other business?
<jussi> If you contribute for a whole cycle, you get to keepm it as areward or something
<JontheEchidna> I don't think we can proceed with any of Harald's items without Harald
<Riddell> yeah
<Quintasan> Riddell: I mean it would be nice to buy them outright but if things don't work out immediately then we will have nexuses lying around for nothing :(
<ScottK> We can declare them invalid.
<Quintasan> ScottK: +9001
 * Quintasan giggles
<ScottK> Riddell: I say endmeeting then.
<Riddell> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Nov 21 18:04:28 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-11-21-17.00.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-11-21-17.00.html
<jussi> cool!
<Riddell> thanks all
<Riddell> now back to KDE SC packaging!
<jussi> good meeting, tahnks everyone. afiestas, congrats!
<Riddell> this 4.10 won't package itself!
<jussi> Riddell: I can do the email to the cc if you likwe
<Riddell> jussi: ok go ahead, also mark and Tm_T's news team
<jussi> yep
<jussi> Ill ccc them both - ittl be done by tomorrow morning
<Tm_T> I believe all councils/membership boards got emailed about those targets
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-11-22
<notgary> If anyone's interested in attending the paper cutters meeting, it's about to begin in #ubuntu-desktop
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-11-23
<highvoltage> it kind of feels awkward that there's no more release team meetings on friday mornings
<Laney> highvoltage: let's meet!
<Laney> [topic] highvoltage to update laney on the latest cool television shows
<highvoltage> Laney: oh sorry I had lunch :)
<highvoltage> Laney: The Big Bang Theory is starting to get a lot better again
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-11-25
<AlanBell> hello all
<Pici> howdy
<AlanBell> everyone sitting comfortably?
<AlanBell> drinks in hand?
<x1k> :-)
<JoseeAntonioR> hey guys!
<IdleOne> Morning
<lhavelund> evening
<Pici> 'afternoon
<AlanBell> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Sun Nov 25 18:02:24 2012 UTC.  The chair is AlanBell. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<lhavelund> I'll be doing a bit of running back and forth, but thought I'd pop in.
<AlanBell> well I would like to start by wishing everyone a very happy "Today"
<AlanBell> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/IrcCouncil/MeetingAgenda
<AlanBell> #meetingname IRC Team
<meetingology> The meeting name has been set to 'irc_team'
<Pici> happy today
<AlanBell> #topic Review last meetings action items
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Review last meetings action items
<AlanBell> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/IRCC/20121028 was the last meeting
<AlanBell> and we did get the ban management code into ubottu
<AlanBell> and sorted out and blogged about the uds channels
<AlanBell> so that is all good
<Pici> woo
 * lhavelund cheers.
<AlanBell> #topic Open items in the IRCC tracker
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Open items in the IRCC tracker
<AlanBell> don't think we have any
<Pici> I'm pretty sure we don't either.
<AlanBell> err, maybe we do have one
<AlanBell> Ticket #819361 appears to exist
<AlanBell> um, we should look at that, I totally missed it happening
<IdleOne> If it involves me I apologize and it won't happen again
<IdleOne> :)
<AlanBell> hmm, we can look at that later, I think it is something that has already been resolved in -ops
<Pici> Its a bit stale...
<AlanBell> #action ircc to sort out issue in the tracker
<meetingology> ACTION: ircc to sort out issue in the tracker
<AlanBell> it is stale I think
<AlanBell> #topic Review Bugs related to the Ubuntu IRC Council
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Review Bugs related to the Ubuntu IRC Council
<AlanBell> we have none \o/
<Pici> Well, we have one. But its sort of in limbo.
<AlanBell> yeah, it is incomplete
<AlanBell> we have closed bug #913541 (however I think a bunch of people since expired)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 913541 in ubuntu-community "there are a number of people with Ubuntu IRC cloaks who have expired from the ubuntumembers group" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/913541
<Pici> If anyone can come up with an idea so that we can do something about it, that would be good.
<AlanBell> and bug 892500 is now closed
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 892500 in ubuntu-community "eir is still not fit for purpose in #ubuntu" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/892500
<Pici> A bunch of people expired from the team that votes on IRCC elections, not from membership.
<AlanBell> yeah, but they might have had membership through that team only, I haven't checked
<AlanBell> but anyhow, we are looking pretty good on the bugs front
<AlanBell> #topic quarterly review of #ubuntu-ops-team channel
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: quarterly review of #ubuntu-ops-team channel
<AlanBell> so, how are people finding the ops team channel and conversations in it?
<Pici> I personally find it useful, but I'd like to see what other people think.
<AlanBell> I know I find it very useful to have that channel distinct from -ops and separate from the ban resolution discussions
<lhavelund> I recently returned to these parts after a long period of other obligations. I enjoy not having to feel like I have to filter everything I say, making sure that under no circumstances can it be taking the wrong way, etc.
<lhavelund> On top of that, previously when resolving issues in -ops, you'd often have multiple queries going with other operators to get another opinion on situations. Now, this can be handled through the -team channel, and it seems to work really well.
<IdleOne> +1 for the team channel
<AlanBell> yup, there were concerns when the channel was set up about having a private channel, so it was agreed to review it quarterly to check that the general standard of discussion and usefulness was as originally intended, and I think it is.
<lhavelund> yeah, exactly.
<lhavelund> i remember this being brought up a very, very long time ago, and was dismissed for those very reasons. although, having participated for a bit, the fears were unfounded. :)
<AlanBell> anyone got any concerns about it?
<IdleOne> Sometimes the topic does get a little OT in there but I think it is good because it helps the team members get to know each other better.
<lhavelund> IdleOne: I don't see why that's necessarily a bad thing, for the same reason you mention.
<IdleOne> right, I don't think it is a bad thing at all.
<lhavelund> -ops was the same back when I was very active.
<lhavelund> :)
<AlanBell> ok, lets move on from that and review it again in another three months or so
<AlanBell> #topic #ubuntu-discuss is it working?
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: #ubuntu-discuss is it working?
<x1k> as someone outside of the invitees, I don't see why there would be any issues with a private chan for ops team... wish I could weigh in more on it lol
<Pici> x1k: there were concerns that things happening 'in the shadows' would be bad for a team whose purpose is to police other users.
<IdleOne> AlanBell: It needs work, doesn't cost us anything to keep it open. I vote we keep it going.
<Pici> I think we should remind people (including myself) to use it more often.
<AlanBell> so #ubuntu-discuss was put on the agenda because it was something we set up and it wasn't getting much traction, however there have been a number of decent conversations in there recently
<AlanBell> and I still have concerns about flinging people into -offtopic for all non-support discussions
<Pici> AlanBell: +1
<lhavelund> What was the original intention with -discuss?
<x1k> from the discussion on the mailing list, it should stay open but more work should be done to advertise it and get people in there
<AlanBell> lhavelund: discussion around the topic of ubuntu
<x1k> I never heard of it other than the irc mailing list
<Pici> lhavelund: it grew out of the anti-unity sentiment, to have somewhere for people to discuss where Ubuntu was going that wasn't -offtopic
<AlanBell> so not talking about utter randomness which is fine in -offtopic
 * lhavelund nods.
<AlanBell> and not clogging up #ubuntu with non-support questions
<lhavelund> makes sense, cheers.
<AlanBell> plus Canonical were directing people to #ubuntu to "join the conversation"
<Pici> Yah, which wasn't good.
<AlanBell> which wasn't entirely helpful, but neither would directing people to -offtopic make any sense
<IdleOne> Do we know if Canonical has modified that practice?
<Pici> I think we did something about it... but my mind is fuzzy
<AlanBell> I am fairly sure they have modified it in some way, sabdfl was pretty clear in his agreement with our point
<AlanBell> I am not sure if they are directing people to IRC at all now, but we have told them that they are welcome to direct people to #ubuntu-discuss
<IdleOne> That would surely help increase traffic and discussion if they did
<AlanBell> ok, so anyone feel strongly that #ubuntu-discuss should be dropped?
<x1k> the push to IRC has to be dummy proof though.... if I told my wife to get on #ubuntu-discuss, I would get a blank stare lol... web based client?
<Pici> I think the link to IRC that was provided was through the webchat.
<AlanBell> x1k: oh, absolutely agreed, but that is all about the context of where it is publicised
<x1k> +1
<x1k> sorry, back to lurking
<Pici> :)
<AlanBell> #agreed keep #ubuntu-discuss
<AlanBell> lets move along
<AlanBell> #topic How is Ubottu ban removal going?
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: How is Ubottu ban removal going?
<AlanBell> any thoughts or comments on this one?
<IdleOne> bot seems to do what it is supposed to do.
<AlanBell> better than eir?
<IdleOne> not in all aspects
<Pici> Where can it be improved?
<IdleOne> I would like the floodbot bans /noticed to -ops-monitor so that we can set comments/duration
<AlanBell> how about the times counting from initial ban point? is that OK or an issue?
<AlanBell> m4v: o/
<m4v> yes I'm here
<AlanBell> just checking :)
<IdleOne> Also would be helpful if when we did @duration banID it gave the date the ban was set
<m4v> the ban notices can be moved to any channel, is a config setting. The where to count from the duration of a ban depends on what you folks need.
<m4v> IdleOne: can be done
<IdleOne> AlanBell: m4v I kinda liked that all the bans were noticed in -ops-monitor.
<IdleOne> but for now I really think that we need a way of seeing and being asked to set comments on the floobot bans
<m4v> I think, once you get into ubottu's code you see that it isn't so easy (i think bantracker doesn't keep ban's information updated at all times in memory, so more fetching form the db will be needed)
<m4v> but I need bug reports so I don't forget about it ;)
<AlanBell> fair enough :)
<AlanBell> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-bots?field.searchtext=bantracker
<AlanBell> in with those ones?
<m4v> IdleOne: I'm pretty sure there's an option for request the channel to make a comment for flootbot's bans, if it isn't doing it now is because is disabled.
<AlanBell> ok, so lets file bugs and have a bit more discussion with the rest of the team, generally I am happy that it is being used and there are not howls of anguish :)
<AlanBell> ok, moving onwards
<AlanBell> #topic review the #ubuntu AKICK list
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: review the #ubuntu AKICK list
<Pici> Do we want to do that here, or break it up and do it offline?
<AlanBell> http://www.privatepaste.com/377d188b5c/ubuntu
<jussi> Offline methinks
<IdleOne> err that isn't so private
<AlanBell> well I was going to suggest a general discussion about whether there should be one
<AlanBell> it isn't private anyway is it?
<jussi> and Hai everyone
<AlanBell> hai jussi
<IdleOne> there should be one.for sure
<IdleOne> hey jussi
<AlanBell> so we have akick lists for -offtopic and #ubuntu
<AlanBell> why do we use them instead of bans?
<Pici> Perhaps we should send it to the mailing list to get people's opinions who aren't here?
<AlanBell> are there stuff that should stay, and what stuff should go, and why?
<lhavelund> AlanBell: it was my understanding that earlier, ban lists were just... getting filled too quickly.
<lhavelund> whether or not that's still an issue, i don't know.
<Pici> go: tor, gateway/cgiirc/
<Pici> akicks can't be accidentally removed.
<AlanBell> there are some things which are kicking out users with nicks containing rude words, others that ban specific dynamic IP addresses
<AlanBell> not sure it is the right place for IP level bans, what do you think?
<Pici> I probably agree.
<jussi>  akick should be for those things that don't change
<jussi> ie. Rude words, particular service bans
<AlanBell> ok, so if the IRCC go through offline and prune the list fairly agressively that would be a good thing?
<AlanBell> limit it to rude words and known bad networks
<IdleOne> I don't think I have seen services auto kick anybody in years
<jussi> IMHO yes
<Pici> IdleOne: its very rare
<IdleOne> right, prune away. keep the obviously rude ones
<AlanBell> IdleOne: I did see one a few weeks ago, hence this being on the agenda
<lhavelund> +1 IdleOne
<Pici> Any naysayers?
<AlanBell> #action ircc to prune the akick lists
<meetingology> ACTION: ircc to prune the akick lists
<jussi> Perhaps move those bans to the normal ban list?
<AlanBell> yeah, that might be something we do for some of them
<jussi> Where they get revewed etc
<AlanBell> right, couple more topics to insert
<AlanBell> we have the membership application of m4v, however we are not quorate right now :(
<Pici> :|
<IdleOne> how many do you need for quorum?
<AlanBell> three of five
<x1k> bummer
<IdleOne> you, pici and me ( I am a Membership board member) make 3
<Pici> I don't think thats how it works.
<IdleOne> There is precedent of other board memmbers voting in membershiop meetings
<IdleOne> members*
<jussi> l also am on a council that grants membership
<IdleOne> but if you prefer to wait that is fine also
<IdleOne> I also think jussi and I have enough IRC experience to make a fair judgment on this application.
<m4v> I'm ok with waiting, is not like I have been in a hurry to get membership
 * AlanBell reads the charter :)
<jussi> we have done It before with CZ<tab>
<AlanBell> yeah, when we had a CC member filling one of the seats
<jussi> On mobile no tab complete
<AlanBell> I think it would be best to wait until the next meeting where there are more of us to congratulate m4v on awesomeness \o/
<Pici> As long as m4v is okay with waiting.
<Pici> Not that we're going to give him much choice ;)
<jussi> l don't have an issue with that.
<x1k> lol
<AlanBell> lets do that then, sorry we couldn't sort it out today m4v, but lets do it properly at the next meeting :)
<m4v> yes
 * IdleOne thanks m4v for his awesomeness
<AlanBell> the other thing we should have put on the agenda is going through the operator applications, which I need to run my little script to list out and we need to discuss them, so lets postpone that to the next meeting too.
<AlanBell> #action m4v membership to go on next agenda
<meetingology> ACTION: m4v membership to go on next agenda
<AlanBell> #action AlanBell to sort out list of operator applicants for next meeting
<meetingology> ACTION: AlanBell to sort out list of operator applicants for next meeting
<Pici> We've gotten a bunch of applications lately, unfortunately I don't really recognize many of the applicants.
<x1k> raises hand... ooo oooo pick me
<AlanBell> !canibeanop
<ubottu> If you are interested in joining the Ops team, take a look at both http://www.siltala.net/2010/03/24/ops-teams-applications-announcement/ and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/IrcTeam/OperatorRequirements for info on the process and requirements.  You can also learn about what the job entails from people in #ubuntu-irc.
<IdleOne> This round is taking much longer than previous ops calls
<lhavelund> I'd rather it takes longer, and we get better suited and more capable candidates.
<IdleOne> that makes sense
<Pici> And filters people that just clicked the button instead of being serious about it.
<lhavelund> Indeed.
<AlanBell> x1k: http://ubottu.com/ircc/2012/11/03/call-for-irc-operators-2/
<x1k> ty
<lhavelund> Run script, check if Wiki page has been updated in the past month or so, if not, scrap.
 * IdleOne scrapes lhavelund and greps for gold
<lhavelund> none. :(
<czajkowski> jussi: why the highlight?
<IdleOne> silver?
<Pici> heh
<AlanBell> hi czajkowski
<IdleOne> hehe czajkowski highlights on czTAB
<IdleOne> hello czajkowski :)
<czajkowski> have to as sometimes folks not on desktop are on phones and ping me that way :/
<AlanBell> czajkowski: we had a quorum issue, but decided to put it off to the next meeting anyway
<czajkowski> okie
<AlanBell> #topic Any Other Business
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Any Other Business
<IdleOne> Since you are here, what does the CC think of quorum issues being settled by using other board members to fill in?
<czajkowski> IdleOne: it's what has been done in past events like RMBs before and not a problem as far as I can remember
<IdleOne> cool, thank you.
<czajkowski> we've not had a case where a CC person has stepped in uusally someone from one of the other membership boards tbh
 * chilicuil waves, he's here to support m4v membership process
<AlanBell> o/ chilicuil, we are going to do that next time when there are more people to woot!
<AlanBell> anyhow, any other business?
<chilicuil> wop, ok AlanBell, I'll be here then =)
<AlanBell> going once
<AlanBell> going twice
<AlanBell> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Sun Nov 25 19:04:11 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-11-25-18.02.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-11-25-18.02.html
<AlanBell> thanks everyone
<IdleOne> Thank you.
<Pici> Thanks :)
<Tm_T> hi
<IdleOne> Morning Tm_T
<Tm_T> AlanBell: also voting (quorum?) can be filled with emails after the meeting I believe (:
<AlanBell> yeah, it can
<AlanBell> bit unsatisfactory for membership though
<Tm_T> AlanBell: ye
#ubuntu-meeting 2013-11-18
 * jjohansen is here
<mdeslaur> \o
<mdeslaur> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Nov 18 17:32:47 2013 UTC.  The chair is mdeslaur. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<mdeslaur> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<mdeslaur> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<mdeslaur> [TOPIC] Announcements
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Announcements
<mdeslaur> thanks to chiluk for his help on security updates for the community supported bip last week.
<mdeslaur> thanks to smb for his help on security updates for the community supported xen last week.
<mdeslaur> Your work is very much appreciated and will keep Ubuntu users secure. Great job! :)
<mdeslaur> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<mdeslaur> I'll go first
<mdeslaur> I'm working on some nss updates
<mdeslaur> perhaps I'll be releasing them today, else it will be next week, as I probably shouldn't push them during uds
<mdeslaur> for raring and earlier, they will add tls 1.2 support on top of fixing a few security issues
<mdeslaur> besides that, I'll be attending vuds this week!
<mdeslaur> that's it from me
<mdeslaur> sbeattie: you here yet?
<mdeslaur> ok, let's skip
<mdeslaur> jjohansen: you're up
<jjohansen> right so this week I am doing apparmor development. I am still working on fixing the gold fish kernel, and trying to finish up dealing/fixing the cred files issue in the apparmor 3 dev kernel
<mdeslaur> what's goldfish again?
<jjohansen> oh and I suppose there is something about vUDS attendance again
<jjohansen> goldfish is the android emulator kernel
<mdeslaur> oh, right, cool
<mdeslaur> is it just a matter of backporting apparmor to it, or is there something else that is busted?
<notchrisccoulson> it's vUDS this week?
<mdeslaur> notchrisccoulson: nice nick
<jjohansen> busted, apparmor is on it but its throwing not nice traces
<mdeslaur> notchrisccoulson: yes, this week
<notchrisccoulson> oh, i'd forgotten about that. i should change it back :)
<mdeslaur> jjohansen: :/
<mdeslaur> jjohansen: that it?
<jjohansen> chrisccoulson: peek at the schedule http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1311/
<jjohansen> yep that is it from me
<jjohansen> sarnold: your up
<mdeslaur> cool, chrisccoulson you're up
<mdeslaur> whoops :)
<mdeslaur> sarnold: you're up
<jjohansen> hehe, my bad
 * mdeslaur shrugs :)
<chrisccoulson> i'm currently working on a firefox update. probably the same one as mdeslaur for nss ;)
<chrisccoulson> i got all the firefox PPA's up-to-date last week too, as they were all a bit behind
<mdeslaur> chrisccoulson: probably, yes :)
<chrisccoulson> been rebasing oxide on the latest chromium. some of the out-of-process iframe work has made this a bit of a pain
<chrisccoulson> once i've done that, i shall actually package it. i was planning to have that done on friday, but i had to look at other stuff
<chrisccoulson> hoping that will be tomorrow now ;)
<mdeslaur> chrisccoulson: cool. so is this the first time that a rebase caused some pain?
<chrisccoulson> and then i'm going to do bug 1214049, which i pretty much know how to do now :)
<ubottu> bug 1214049 in Oxide "Support accelerated compositing" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1214049
<chrisccoulson> mdeslaur, yeah, it's not creating any unsolvable problems, just a bit of refactoring
<mdeslaur> ok, cool
<chrisccoulson> i think that's me done
<mdeslaur> sarnold: you're up
<sarnold> I'm on community this week, looking forward to lots of patches :) Between vUDS sessions I think I'll tackle some of the outstanding AppArmor patches needing review, then moving onto some the new MIR requests that have been filed early this cycle (yay! :)
<mdeslaur> cool
<sarnold> I've also got one package still needing refreshing in the T cycle, and I TIL. It feels like it ought ot be handled earlier in the cycle rather than later, so maybe I'll fit that in.
<sarnold> mdeslaur: which comes first, libgcrypt11 merge or MIR audits?
<mdeslaur> sarnold: please do the merge first
<mdeslaur> shouldn't take long
<sarnold> mdeslaur: thanks
<sarnold> that's me done :)
<mdeslaur> ok, who'd I forget...
<mdeslaur> nobody
<sarnold> another check for sbeattie?
<sbeattie> doh, here now
<mdeslaur> sbeattie: hi!
<sbeattie> hey
<mdeslaur> sbeattie: your turn :)
<sbeattie> I'm again working on apparmor this week
<sbeattie> still working on various testing improvements and other misc fixes to stuff
<sbeattie> I'll monitor vUDS, but don't expect to have much participation
<sbeattie> that's pretty much it for me
<sbeattie> mdeslaur: all done
<mdeslaur> cool
<mdeslaur> jjohansen, sarnold, sbeattie, chrisccoulson: FYI, the meeting this week was an hour late, as with DST, the meeting should have been an hour earlier
<jjohansen> thanks mdeslaur
 * jjohansen needs that another reminder
<jjohansen> :P
<mdeslaur> jjohansen, sarnold, sbeattie, chrisccoulson: please take a look at summit.ubuntu.com and subscribe to all the uds session that look relevant to you
<jjohansen> ack
<sarnold> ack
<mdeslaur> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
<mdeslaur> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.
<mdeslaur> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
<mdeslaur> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/prewikka.html
<mdeslaur> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/ldap-account-manager.html
<mdeslaur> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/gridengine.html
<mdeslaur> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/graphite2.html
<mdeslaur> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/elixir.html
<mdeslaur> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
<mdeslaur> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
<mdeslaur> Thanks everyone!
<mdeslaur> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Nov 18 17:52:51 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-11-18-17.32.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-11-18-17.32.html
<jjohansen> thanks mdeslaur
<sbeattie> mdeslaur: thanks
<jjohansen> and this time its sinscere even :)
<mdeslaur> lol
<sarnold> thanks mdeslaur :)
<sarnold> lol
<chiluk> mdeslaur, looks like there is still some work to do on bip.
<chiluk> I got another crash this weekend.
<mdeslaur> chiluk: ok
<mdeslaur> chiluk: sarnold is on community this week, so subscribe ubuntu-security-sponsors and ping him when you have a debdiff
<chiluk> I'd been working the issues as just committing appropriate bug fixes from their bugzilla,
<chiluk> mdeslaur will do.
<mdeslaur> thanks
<sarnold> thanks chiluk :)
<chiluk> no worries guys... it's all for selfish reasons
<sarnold> that's usually why packages in universe get updates :)
<sarnold> greed is good!
<chiluk> sarnold, I actually am starting to think that we should just do a full backport of the new package.
<sarnold> chiluk: that bad, eh? :/
<chiluk> maybe... I need to spend more time.... my day job is getting in the way.
<sarnold> hehe :)
<chiluk> I might find some time tomorrow.
<chiluk> the fixes that are already uploaded are good fixes, but they don't totally solve the issue for me.
#ubuntu-meeting 2013-11-19
<costales> Hi everybody!
<kaziweb> Hi
<costales> Hi rafael_carreras :) How are you?
<rafael_carreras> fine :)
<costales> Great :D
<costales> Great your last install party! rafael_carreras
<costales> I saw in the planet
<rafael_carreras> thank you, costales
<skellat> costales: Shall we start with the LoCo Council meeting?
<costales> Hi SergioMeneses!
<costales> skellat: Who we are here from the Council?
<costales> Who are we here from the Council?
<BobJonkman1> Hello all!
<SergioMeneses> hi guys!
<SergioMeneses> BobJonkman1, ni
<SergioMeneses> hi
<ChitKo> hi
<kaziweb> Hi I'm from Ubuntu Qatar.
<skellat> skellat, costales, sergiomeneses
<costales> |o/
<SergioMeneses> skellat, ok
<kaziweb> And for the first time in council meeting.
<skellat> I think we can go ahead and start
<skellat> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Nov 19 20:07:18 2013 UTC.  The chair is skellat. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<SergioMeneses> kaziweb, welcome!
<skellat> This is the November regular meeting of the LoCo Council
<kaziweb> SergioMeneses, thanks
<skellat> We have two applications before us at this meeting for consideration
<kokoye2007> thx skellat
<costales> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoCouncil/Agenda
<ChitKo> yes
<skellat> #topic ubuntu-mm
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: ubuntu-mm
<costales> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MyanmarTeam/VerificationApplication2013
<skellat> At this point I must stress that, due to the number of members who are unable to be present, we have votes that have been recorded separately in bugmail
<skellat> While I look up those votes, I invite kokoye2007 to tell us a little bit about the current state of ubuntu-mm
<kokoye2007> yes skellat
<kokoye2007> we have pre vote +1 4 person :D
<costales> Welcome kokoye2007
<kokoye2007> now we planing for Ubuntu 13.10 Biggest Event
<kokoye2007> in 2 City
<SergioMeneses> awesome kokoye2007 !
<kokoye2007> also Country Level Mobile Event in Order booth  - for Ubuntu Mobile Event (Dec-2013)
<kokoye2007> this year we more promote Ubuntu OS in our country
<costales> I see your wiki pretty nice and good information ;)
<kokoye2007> bcz IP Law is early
<skellat> The wiki looks in pretty good shape
<ChitKo> thanx
<skellat> If I may interrupt for a moment, let me put the absent votes on record
<skellat> #nick PabloRubianes
<skellat> #info PabloRubianes voted +1
<skellat> #nick jose
<kokoye2007> who is make IT event - they invited to our ubuntu loco team
<skellat> #info jose voted +1
<skellat> #nick coolbhavi
<costales> kokoye2007: Have you had any issues? Or things the council can help with?
<skellat> #info coolbhavi voted +1
<kokoye2007> bcz innovative and pioneer FLOSS team
<SergioMeneses> I want to say you have an amazing wiki kokoye2007  and I am gald you use the loco team portal for your events http://loco.ubuntu.com/teams/ubuntu-mm/ ....and there are a lot of good pictures! :)
<kokoye2007> thx SergioMeneses
<ChitKo> thanx SergioMeneses
<skellat> Is there any further discussion?
<kokoye2007> :)
<skellat> #voters skellat SergioMeneses costales
<meetingology> Current voters: SergioMeneses costales skellat
<kokoye2007> this year to Ubuntu Year for Myanmar
<kokoye2007> i wanna try look like China
<SergioMeneses> kokoye2007, might you answer costales question :)
<SergioMeneses> might we help your team with something?
<kokoye2007> yes
<costales> :)
<kokoye2007> when we make
<ChitKo> thanks
<kokoye2007> Barcamp or
<kokoye2007> Ubuntu Camp / UbuCamp
<hono> thanks sir
<kokoye2007> Who can coming and Contribute / Guide
<kokoye2007> example Ubuntu Install Festival / Ubuntu Travel in Myanmar
<skellat> Okay
<kokoye2007> migrate (Window$ > Ubuntu)
<skellat> Some of that got discussed in the LoCo Projects session at vUDS-1311 today.  I urge you to go back and watch the session to learn what dpm, popey, myself, and others were talking about.
<SergioMeneses> kokoye2007, I dont get your point... you want to make a guide about hw to contribute or I miss something?
<kokoye2007> both
<kokoye2007> :D
<kokoye2007> who can come (and) who can guideline
<kokoye2007> thx skellat
<SergioMeneses> ok I propose this! kokoye2007 send us an email with this "project" and we are going to see what might we do :)
<costales> kokoye2007: What about the wiki guides? Are they useful for you? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoCouncil/LoCoTeamsBestPracticesandGuidelines
<SergioMeneses> skellat, costales ok with my idea?
<costales> yes :D it will be a great feedback
<skellat> SergioMeneses: No objections
<SergioMeneses> perfect!
<kokoye2007> Ohh thank SergioMeneses , costales
<SergioMeneses> skellat, we are ready to vote - imho
<costales> yes, I'm
<skellat> #vote To approve the Verification of ubuntu-mm for a 2 year period
<meetingology> Please vote on: To approve the Verification of ubuntu-mm for a 2 year period
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<skellat> +1 with hearty congratulations to the team for the great work they are doing
<meetingology> +1 with hearty congratulations to the team for the great work they are doing received from skellat
<kokoye2007> who is +1 :)
<costales> +1 Impressive work team! Thanks! Keep your hard work ;)
<meetingology> +1 Impressive work team! Thanks! Keep your hard work ;) received from costales
<SergioMeneses> +1 excellent work ubuntu-mm
<meetingology> +1 excellent work ubuntu-mm received from SergioMeneses
<skellat> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: To approve the Verification of ubuntu-mm for a 2 year period
<meetingology> Votes for:3 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<costales> Congrants team! :D
<kokoye2007> thank costales
<skellat> #agreed With the 3 absent votes plus the 3 positive votes in-meeting, ubuntu-mm stands Verified for 2 years
<kokoye2007> thank SergioMeneses
<ChitKo> Thank you all
<kokoye2007> thank skellat
<kokoye2007> :)
<hono> thanks all sir
<costales> kokoye2007: Thanks to all the team :)
<kokoye2007> we promise, more project, more contribute, more love ubuntu :)
<SergioMeneses> congrats ubuntu-mm ChitKo and kokoye2007
<skellat> Okay, lets move on to the next topic
<skellat> #topic Abstention of a Council Member
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Abstention of a Council Member
<SergioMeneses> kokoye2007, if you need help from us! please let us know ;)
<skellat> #info skellat serves as Point of Contact/Leader for Ubuntu Ohio
<kokoye2007> yes, thx SergioMeneses
<skellat> #info skellat also serves as a member of LoCo Council
<ChitKo> y
<skellat> #info skellat will not be permitted to vote on the application of Ubuntu Ohio for Verification
<SergioMeneses> skellat, dont worry!
<skellat> #info SergioMeneses will take the chair for proceedings on the Ubuntu Ohio application
<skellat> #chair SergioMeneses
<meetingology> Current chairs: SergioMeneses skellat
<skellat> #topic ubuntu-us-ohio
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: ubuntu-us-ohio
<skellat> I yield to SergioMeneses to continue the meeting
<costales> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/OhioTeam/VerificationApplication2013
<SergioMeneses> greetings ubuntu-us-oh !
<SergioMeneses> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/OhioTeam/VerificationApplication2013
<skellat> Greetings on behalf of a rather rambunctious community
<SergioMeneses> thanks costales
<SergioMeneses> skellat, tell us something about your community
<skellat> After two failed attempts at seeking Approval, Ubuntu Ohio entered a bit of a restructuring
<skellat> During that time Ubuntu Ohio transitioned from having a High Council to lead it to now being led by a sole leader
<skellat> We've instituted some changes to try to increase the engagement level
<costales> I'm glad to see you're using the Portal :) http://loco.ubuntu.com/teams/ubuntu-us-ohio/events/history/
<skellat> Thank you
<skellat> Above and beyond the requirements in general for LoCo membership, members for Ubuntu Ohio **must** sign the Ubuntu Code of Conduct
<SergioMeneses> skellat, glad to read that! a lot of teams are working on the same area... how to get more activity, members, and others
<skellat> This ensures that they are empowered to take action on any complaints they have to the relevant team rather than complain intra-team
<skellat> SergioMeneses: Our big goal right now is to get everybody empowered
<skellat> I bluntly told multiple members in-person at Ohio Linux Fest 2013 that I do not whining or complaining without action
<skellat> If you have a problem, I want to remove the barriers so you can seek a fix to the problem
<SergioMeneses> skellat, great! I think someday you might share about this with us and all loco-teams
<costales> You've been busy ;)
<skellat> Yeah
<SergioMeneses> costales, agree
<skellat> Putting on OLF 2013 was our short-term goal which we just completed
<SergioMeneses> I really like your "member map"  http://ohio.ubuntu-us.org/map/user
<costales> skellat: So what do you think is the best thing that works for the team, is it social events?
<skellat> costales: In-person, no.  We're too spread out.  Online, yes.  We're making online socialization work.
<SergioMeneses> skellat, great!
<SergioMeneses> skellat, do you have problems in your team or if we might help you with something?
<costales> skellat: Which social platform is working better? Twitter, FB, G+, Identi.ca...?
<BobJonkman1> skellat: How did you achieve online socialization?
 * SergioMeneses forgets skellat is part of the LC 
<skellat> SergioMeneses: Not at this time.  Any member of the Council is welcome to attend our meeting later this month when we work on our long range planning
<skellat> costales: IRC & Mailing Lists are what are working best followed by G+ then Twitter
<costales> skellat: Great! ;)
<costales> Nice detailed wiki
<SergioMeneses> and you have a good experience this year! I like that as well... I think we are ready to vote, costales dont you think?
<skellat> BobJonkman1: Right now we focus on our IRC meetings.  When it comes down to it, I'm actually located closer to you "as the crow flies" than my next closest member of Ubuntu Ohio.  The IRC channel has been the main watering hole for discussion although I am trying to get some of that to move to discourse.ubuntu.com potentially.  Discussion in-channel is pretty varied.
<skellat> We should note that votes were already cast in the bug
<SergioMeneses> good answer skellat !
<costales> I have to ask :P Do you need something from the council?
<BobJonkman1> #info skellat, LoCo Council: at some future time I'd like to discuss how to improve IRC meeting participation for Ubuntu-ca
<SergioMeneses> ok we have 4 votes https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-locoteams/+bug/1247523
<ubottu> Error: ubuntu bug 1247523 not found
<skellat> #action LoCo Council to discuss with Point of Contact for Canada how to improve participation
<meetingology> ACTION: LoCo Council to discuss with Point of Contact for Canada how to improve participation
<SergioMeneses> jaja the bug is private
<kokoye2007> it's private
<skellat> Hold on
<skellat> #nick jose
<SergioMeneses> skellat, it's ok
<skellat> #info jose voted +1 on Ohio
<costales> Great BobJonkman1 I'll a pleasure :)
<skellat> #nick coolbhavi
<skellat> #info coolbhavi voted +1 on Ohio
<skellat> #nick PabloRubianes
<skellat> #info PabloRubianes voted +1 on Ohio
<skellat> SergioMeneses: Okay, we've got that on record now :-)
<SergioMeneses> skellat, perfect!
<SergioMeneses> skellat, I think my vote is not necessary =( jajaja
<SergioMeneses> congratulations ubuntu-us-ohio
<skellat> Oh, that's right I almost forgot
<skellat> #nick costales
<costales> :P
<skellat> #info costales voted +1 on Ohio
<costales> Of course :)
<costales> You did an awesome hard work!
<SergioMeneses> skellat, I will put my vote on the bug ;)
<SergioMeneses> costales, skellat do we have more things on the board?
<skellat> #agreed ubuntu-us-ohio stands Verified for 2 years
<skellat> #topic Any Other Business
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Any Other Business
<BobJonkman1> Since there are lots of people online I haven't met before, can we do a round of introductions before the meeting ends?
<kokoye2007> g8t! skellat , costales
<kokoye2007> :)
<costales> Congrats ubuntu-us-ohio!! And thanks! :D
<skellat> #subtopic Introductions
<ChitKo> Congrats ubuntu-us-ohio!!
<skellat> Thank you kokoye2007, ChitKo, costales
<BobJonkman1> I'm Bob Jonkman from Elmira, Ontario, Canada, and a co-contact for Canada with Darcy Casselman (dscassel on IRC)
<costales> Of course BobJonkman1
<costales> Nice to meet you BobJonkman1, it's a pleasure :)
<BobJonkman1> Hello, costales!
<skellat> My name is Stephen Michael Kellat in Ashtabula, Ohio, USA, and am a member of LoCo Council as well as Point of Contact/Leader for Ubuntu Ohio.  BobJonkman1 otherwise sees me on Identica as alpacaherder usually.
<BobJonkman1> It was useful to receive a reminder of this meeting on the LoCo-Contacts mailing list -- thanx for that, skellat
<skellat> No problem
<kokoye2007> nice 2 meet ya skellat,
<hono> nice to see skellat
<skellat> A big thing right now is to work on communication.  popey brought that up as an issue during the LoCo Projects session at today's vUDS-1311 panels and it is an active matter to deal with.
<SergioMeneses> BobJonkman1, indeed ... skellat rocks!
<costales> BobJonkman1: I'm costales. Hi from a LoCo Council Member too!
<SergioMeneses> skellat, close the meeting ;)
<costales> hahahaha
<SergioMeneses> ok I have to go back to work! see you later guys!
<SergioMeneses> take care
<ChitKo> great
<BobJonkman1> Bye SergioMeneses
<kokoye2007> bye SergioMeneses see ya later ;P
<hono> take care bye
<ChitKo> bye skellet , costales , SergioMeneses
<skellat> Alrighty
<skellat> It looks like we're done
<skellat> #topic Next meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Next meeting
<skellat> #info The next meeting will be the Third Tuesday of December at 2000 UTC
<skellat> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Nov 19 20:43:35 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-11-19-20.07.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-11-19-20.07.html
<costales> BobJonkman1: If you have any issue at any time, please, ping us in the #ubuntu-locoteams :)
<costales> We're for helping you
<BobJonkman1> Will do, costales
<costales> BobJonkman1: :) ;)
<costales> |o/
<BobJonkman1> I'll schedule an IRC meeting for ubuntu-ca and invite LoCo Council members to discuss participation
<BobJonkman1> We've been having them regularly, but attendance dropped off to the point where I was just talking to myself.
 * genii slides BobJonkman1 a coffee
<BobJonkman1> Thanx genii! Always nice to have you around
<BobJonkman1> Meeting/Agenda from the last IRC meeting: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CanadianTeam/Meetings/2013/2013-09-26
<costales> Nice BobJonkman1
<costales> I'll try to be there :D
<costales> Remember us, OK?
<BobJonkman1> Thanx.  Should be on 28 November at 19:00-0500 (EST), or 00:00 UTC on 29 November.  That gives us a local time range of 16:00 (PST) to 21:30 (NST)  -- Canada is really big...
<costales> BobJonkman1: I think it will be a bad hour for me :P It's my 22.00 now xD
<BobJonkman1> Hmm... Not sure how to fix that.  Evening meetings (in local time zone) are preferred to avoid conflicts with people's working hours
<costales> There are more members in the council :) Don't worry
<costales> We'll try!
<BobJonkman1> I'm just creating an agenda now, and I'll create an event in the LoCo portal, and send a message to the LoCo Contacts mailing list. That should get some people, I hope!
<costales> ;)
<BobJonkman1> OK, Ubuntu-ca  agenda for the IRC meeting posted at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CanadianTeam/Meetings/2013/2013-11-28 LoCo Portal event at http://loco.ubuntu.com/events/ubuntu-ca/2646/detail/
#ubuntu-meeting 2013-11-20
<jared> !rmb
<ubottu> cjohnston, cyphermox, Destine, ejat,  hggdh, IdleOne, iulian, micahg,  Pendulum, PabloRubienes, freeflying, jared, amachu, and bkerensa. Meeting time.
<jared> That could probably do with updating
<jibel> hi \o
<jared> Evening jibel, I'm just trying to rustle up the other board members
<jibel> evening jared, no problem it's early afternoon here :)
<jared> jibel: ah sorry, 10pm here ;)
 * DanChapman thought jibel was already a member
<jared> I'm actually a bit confused myself, jibel you list an @ubuntu.com email address on your lp profile
<jared> Has it just lapsed or is it a fresh application and you're just confident?
<jibel> jared, it is a fresh application
<jibel> jared, and this @ubuntu address was for testing purpose a while ago and shouldn't be listed there
<jared> jibel: ah ok, I was going to say, the address listed wouldn't work anyway, it uses your LP username as the username@ubuntu.com for the email
<jared> jibel: on a good note, we're just awaiting 1 more board member now
<jared> !rmb
<jared> Just another ping, we're still awaiting one more member to achieve quorum
<jared> jibel: sorry, we're still trying.
<jared> jibel: ok, so we have 3 members present and we need 4 for quorum. If we can't reach quorum in the next 5 minutes we'll have a meeting and the action will be to move your vote to the mailing list. If we can reach quorum we shall hold the meeting as normal.
<jared> Sorry for the hassles.
<jared> (We don't normally vote on the ML but when we're the ones holding up proceedings we don't want you to have to wait another month)
<jibel> jared, I understand. I can also attend next evening board in 2 weeks if you prefer?
<jared> jibel: you shouldn't have to. And I'm pretty sure we can resolve the vote quickly on the ML. If you would prefer the IRC route waiting 2 weeks might be okay, we just don't want to put you out.
<jibel> ML works for me too
<jared> jibel: we're really sorry for the hassles.
<jared> I'll run through th emeeting process just to have a record of the outcome
<jibel> no worries, don't be sorry
<jared> #startmeeting 1200 UTC Ubuntu Membership Board
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Nov 20 12:32:11 2013 UTC.  The chair is jared. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | 1200 UTC Ubuntu Membership Board Meeting | Current topic:
<jared> The wiki page for the Review Board is available here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/Boards
<jared> #topic jibel's membership application
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | 1200 UTC Ubuntu Membership Board Meeting | Current topic: jibel's membership application
<jared> As we've discussed as only micahg, IdleOne and I are present we're unable to successfully vote on your applciation as we don't have quorum
<jibel> understood
<jared> In discussions with the present members we have determined to follow previous precedent and move the vote to the mailing list so we don't hold up the application process
<jared> #action Voting to be conducted on the membership board mailing list for jibel 's membership application
<meetingology> ACTION: Voting to be conducted on the membership board mailing list for jibel 's membership application
<jared> #action jibel to be asked any questions from the board and/or informed of the outcome as soon as it's reached via the @canonical email address
<meetingology> ACTION: jibel to be asked any questions from the board and/or informed of the outcome as soon as it's reached via the @canonical email address
<jibel> jared, can you use the @gmail address instead?
<jared> jibel: so we'll vote privately on the list to allow open discussion and ensure we ask you any clarification questions we need. The process shouldn't take too long as I believe the US should be waking up soon so that should give use enough members to reach quorum
<jared> jibel: surely can
<jared> (I was just going down the list on LP - sorry)
<jared> So I'm goign to close the meeting now and we'll adjourn to the ML. I'd anticipate having a result within 24 - 48 hours at the outside.
<jared> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Nov 20 12:38:53 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-11-20-12.32.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-11-20-12.32.html
<jared> jibel: thanks for your patience, you have prepared a good application as well which is appreciated.
<jibel> jared, thanks for chairing
<jared> The only question I had related to the @ubuntu.com email addresses and we've already covered that anyway
<jibel> micahg, IdleOne thanks for attending :)
<jibel> pitti, DanChapman thanks for your support!
 * pitti waves the fanboy flag
 * DanChapman ^^ +1
<jared> sorry to all the supporters, if you ahven't already done so feel free to add a comment to the wiki application so it can be heard by the memberhsip board mailing list.
 * DanChapman had his supporting speech all ready as well 
<jared> If you'd prefer email you can send them directly to the baord - ubuntu-membership-boards@lists.ubuntu.com
<jared> Posts are held for moderation for non subscribers but they'll get through
#ubuntu-meeting 2013-11-24
<Pici> \o/
<topyli> o/
<AlanBell> o/
<AlanBell> #startmeeting IRC Team
<meetingology> Meeting started Sun Nov 24 20:03:19 2013 UTC.  The chair is AlanBell. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | IRC Team Meeting | Current topic:
<AlanBell> hi all
<Pici> howdy
<AlanBell> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/IrcCouncil/MeetingAgenda is the agenda
<Pici> Do we have anything from last meeting to discuss?
<AlanBell> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/IRCC/20131027 was the last meeting
<AlanBell> still not done many cloak removals :(
<AlanBell> #topic Review last meetings action items
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | IRC Team Meeting | Current topic: Review last meetings action items
<Pici> I think we have a few more anyway, I saw at least one get emailed to us recently.
<AlanBell> yup, the script needs re-running and just processing
<AlanBell> lets rattle through the rest of the agenda and then do that
<AlanBell> #topic Open items in the IRCC tracker
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | IRC Team Meeting | Current topic: Open items in the IRCC tracker
<AlanBell> no items in the tracker, I just checked
<AlanBell> #topic Review Bugs related to the Ubuntu IRC Council
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | IRC Team Meeting | Current topic: Review Bugs related to the Ubuntu IRC Council
<AlanBell> no new bugs reported
<Pici> I just checked as well.
<AlanBell> #topic Operator Applicants
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | IRC Team Meeting | Current topic: Operator Applicants
<AlanBell> we do have some operator applicants that we mentioned in the prior meeting
<Pici> I spoke to someone the other day that expressed interest, I'm not sure if they applied or not though
<Unit193> https://launchpad.net/~irc-lubuntu-ops seems to have one pending, I'd +1.
<Pici> agreed
<AlanBell> yup, lets just make that one happen :)
<topyli> yes let's
<AlanBell> gah, my irssi script has messed up, pici/topyli can you sort out the flags for that
<Pici> sure
<Unit193> (Already did.)
<AlanBell> also xubuntu
<Pici> done
<Unit193> Pici: Don't like templates? ;)
<Pici> Unit193: nope
<AlanBell> ok, no membership applications on the agenda
<AlanBell> #topic Any Other Business
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | IRC Team Meeting | Current topic: Any Other Business
<AlanBell> I think the main thing to discuss is the nomination(s) for the next IRCC term
<Pici> I suppose we have until the end of the month to get our nominations in.
<AlanBell> yup, end of the month is the deadline
<IdleOne> afaik only Tm_T has nominated himself, right?
<AlanBell> the announcment has been on the mailing list and on the fridge/planet ubuntu
<AlanBell> IdleOne: I believe that is the case at the moment
<Pici> Personally, I'm waiting to see who else steps forward.
<AlanBell> me too :)
<topyli> i'm not
<IdleOne> :/
 * phunyguy giggles
<AlanBell> so, is there something else we could be doing to encourage more nominations?
<IdleOne> AlanBell: I doubt it
<Pici> free parking?
<IdleOne> haha
<Unit193> The dark side has cookies, yes.
<AlanBell> I was wondering if the recent open letter and discussions would prompt some people to nominate themselves/each other
<AlanBell> or if it would put people off :/
<IdleOne> it is unfortunate but I think many people are put off by it
<AlanBell> yeah, I was rather disappointed by the timing of it when I saw it
<IdleOne> I think the effect did not match the intent
<IdleOne> hypothetical question, what would happen if there was no IRCC for a cycle ?
<IdleOne> How would it effect the IRC team?
<Unit193> Tm_T does it all.
<AlanBell> interesting question
<IdleOne> Unit193: I thought he already did :)
<AlanBell> I am thinking we should schedule an IRC team meeting for next saturday, which is basically the deadline
<IdleOne> but seriously, say there is no IRCC. Does it all explode?
<AlanBell> at that meeting we can count up the nominations and figure out what happens next
<phunyguy> What are the requirements for an IRCC seat?
<IdleOne> need to be an ubuntu member
<topyli> phunyguy: you must be an ubuntu member, that's it iirc
<AlanBell> phunyguy: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/IrcCouncil
<phunyguy> ah.  Ok then.
<IdleOne> and it should be cushioned
<IdleOne> I refuse to sit on a hard seat
<phunyguy> (That page said everyone is welcome to apply)
<AlanBell> and nominate yourself, and not be pruned by the CC
<topyli> and get people to vote for you
<topyli> childsplay!
<IdleOne> a lot like US presidential elections if you think about it
<AlanBell> phunyguy: yeah, it does, but it also lists the requirements Ubuntu membership (Essential)
<phunyguy> yep i see it now.
<IdleOne> AlanBell: +1 on scheduling a meeting for next Saturday
<AlanBell> ok, anything else to discuss right now?
<AlanBell> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Sun Nov 24 20:36:06 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-11-24-20.03.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-11-24-20.03.html
<topyli> i say anyone who joins the meeting on saturday is auto-nominated!
<AlanBell> thanks all, and I will set up a meeting for next saturday and mail the list/put it on the calendar
<AlanBell> heh
<IdleOne> thank you
<topyli> thanks all
<IdleOne> topyli: planning on a "unscheduled" internet failure :)
<topyli> heh
#ubuntu-meeting 2014-11-17
 * Laney arrives back just after time
<Laney> !dmb-ping
<ubottu> bdrung, ScottK, Laney, micahg, xnox, bdmurray, stgraber: DMB ping
<bdrung_work> o/
<ScottK> \o
<xnox> o/
<xnox> oh, i forget that UK is in-line with UTC this half of the year.
 * xnox grabs coffee
<stgraber> at a sprint today so only kinda around, sorry
<ScottK> Who's chairing?
<Laney> bdmurray / xnox
<xnox> Laney: why two chairs? =) or is bdmurray not around?
<xnox> stgraber: is bdmurray sprinting with you?
<stgraber> xnox: nope
<Laney> I didn't see him say anything yet
<xnox> #startmeeting Developer Membership Board Meeting 2014-11-17
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Nov 17 15:10:32 2014 UTC.  The chair is xnox. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Developer Membership Board Meeting 2014-11-17 | Current topic:
<xnox> From roll call - Laney, bdrung_work, ScottK, stgraber and xnox are present.
<xnox> absent bdmurray and micahg
 * xnox action to send micahg reminder about meeting and whether he still plans to participate in them
<xnox> #action xnox to send micahg reminder about meeting and whether he still plans to participate in them
<meetingology> ACTION: xnox to send micahg reminder about meeting and whether he still plans to participate in them
<xnox> #topic Core Developer Application mitya57
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Developer Membership Board Meeting 2014-11-17 | Current topic: Core Developer Application mitya57
<mitya57> o/
<xnox> mitya57: hello! How are you today? =)
<mitya57> Fine, thanks. Though I am on an unreliable wlan connection, so if I suddenly disappear, blame Moscow University wifi :)
<xnox> mitya57: gotcha, will prepare the pitch forks
<xnox> mitya57: could please introduce yourself and your application today briefly? =)
<mitya57> :)
<mitya57> Well, I am Dmitry Shachnev, 20 year old, math student, python/c++/js programmer, etc
<mitya57> Actually I have prepared something to paste
<mitya57> Things I will do:
<mitya57>  - Maintaining "my" packages. Look at http://qa.debian.org/developer.php?login=mitya57
<mitya57>    for the incomplete list of them.
<mitya57>  - Doing changes in other packages that "my" packages need (recent example:
<mitya57>    new gnome-flashback release needed a patch dropped in gnome-menus).
<mitya57>  - Doing some QA work (fixing FTBFS, autopkgtests failures, uninstallable packages, etc).
<mitya57>  - Doing myself and sponsoring syncs, merges from Debian and bug fixes.
<mitya57>  - Continuing my work in l10n and docs teams.
<mitya57> Things I won't do:
<mitya57>  - Adding Ubuntu delta that is not a fix for important bug to packages
<mitya57>    without existing delta.
<mitya57>  - Include patches that haven't been forwarded, without a heavy reason.
<mitya57> Things I won't do:
<mitya57>  - Adding Ubuntu delta that is not a fix for important bug to packages
<mitya57>    without existing delta.
<mitya57>  - Include patches that haven't been forwarded, without a heavy reason.
<mitya57> err
<mitya57> Things I won't do despite being Qt (co)maintainer:
<mitya57>  - Touch Ubuntu Touch stuff (for now) :)
<mitya57>  - Touch KDE stuff (unless I start using it myself).
<mitya57>    (unless I am asked to do that, once Kubuntu guys asked me to sponsor
<mitya57>    a few uploads for them).
<mitya57> â EOF
<mitya57> ^ that needs | uniq
<Laney> Actually touch people are a bit better about people uploading that stuff now
<Laney> If you see something which FTBFS, then fix/(MP and upload) is valid and I don't think you should be afraid of doing that
<mitya57> I think if I ever want to contribute to something touch-related, I will go the MP/autoland way instead.
<Laney> That's best if you can wait
<Laney> s/autoland/CI train/ these days, but core-devs have power to use that anyway
<mitya57> CI train is what I meant. And MPs usually need to be approved by someone else.
<Laney> nod
<ScottK> FWIW, I've seen enough of mitya57's work that I don't need to ask any questions.
<ScottK> JFTR, you should also feel completely free to ignore CI train and just upload stuff.
<Laney> I'm good now
<xnox> mitya57: what's your favourite parts of C++ and JS? least?
<Riddell> I also am all for mitya57's application, he's doing good stuff in Qt maintainance and working nicely with Debian Qt KDE team too
<mitya57> xnox: C++. I don't much like programming anything that runs in a browser.
<mitya57> (though I have to do that many times)
<xnox> mitya57: ok.
<xnox> #vote should mitya57 be granted core developer status in Ubuntu?
<meetingology> Please vote on: should mitya57 be granted core developer status in Ubuntu?
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<Laney> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Laney
<ScottK> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from ScottK
<bdrung_work> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from bdrung_work
<xnox> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from xnox
<bdrung_work> mitya57, interesting to see Qt and GNOME flashback in the list of packages.
<mitya57> Qt is something I like a lot (actually I've even contributed ~20 patches upstream), and GNOME Flashback is a thing I was asked to take over by someone else.
<stgraber> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from stgraber
<bdrung_work> mitya57, what do you run on your desktop?
<mitya57> GNOME Shell
<xnox> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: should mitya57 be granted core developer status in Ubuntu?
<meetingology> Votes for:5 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<xnox> mitya57: congrats, you are a core dev now =)
<mitya57> Thanks to you all!
<ScottK> mitya57: Yes, congratulations.  It's about time.
<Laney> Good stuff
<xnox> I've added you to the team, now. And will deal with other post-meeting things later.
<mitya57> The first thing I'll do is sponsor my own three items in the sponsorship queue :)
<xnox> ;-)
<xnox> #topic Any other business
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Developer Membership Board Meeting 2014-11-17 | Current topic: Any other business
<Laney> I put an item on the agenda
<mitya57> Thanks to xnox for being so fast
<xnox> Laney: which is...? "Extend DD PPU to cover DM too (Laney)" not sure what that means?
<ScottK> Makes sense to me.
 * ScottK says yes.
 * xnox requests verbosity++
<Laney> #topic it and then I'll say
<xnox> #topic Extend DD PPU to cover DM too (Laney)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Developer Membership Board Meeting 2014-11-17 | Current topic: Extend DD PPU to cover DM too (Laney)
<xnox> Laney: floor is yours
<Laney> I don't know how to link to the heading but https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperMembershipBoard/ApplicationProcess has a section for DDs who want to apply for upload rights to their packages
<Laney> Currently you have to be an actual full fat DD
<Laney> I was reminded by Laibsch's thread on devel-permissions, as he is a DM, that I wanted to see if we could make this be DM or DD.
<Laney> then we could s/Developer/Uploader/ or something
<ScottK> You can be a skinny DD as well.  Beard is not required either.
<xnox> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperMembershipBoard/ApplicationProcess
<xnox> #url https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperMembershipBoard/ApplicationProcess
<xnox> #help
 * xnox gives up
<bdrung_work> ScottK, you should have told me before growing a beard and eating many sweets. ;)
<Laney> I cannot imagine bdrung_work with a beard
<Laney> Anyway
<Laney> Questions?
<ScottK> Seems reasonable to me.
<xnox> Laney: so looking at current uploading DMs in https://ftp-master.debian.org/dm.txt the list is not that large
 * bdrung_work is fine with expanding the DD PPU to DM
 * ScottK suggests a vote.
<Laney> You'll still have to be approved normally one time
<Laney> But then can extend it by mail later on
<Laney> Yeah
<bdrung_work> xnox, this file has 165 persons listed
<ScottK> Compared to 1,000 DDs, it's not so many.
<xnox> bdrung_work: some of them already have PPU rights in Ubuntu or will not want to seek them.
<xnox> ScottK: well ~500 or so active.
<ScottK> True.
<xnox> whithin past year.
<Laney> what's the concern?
<xnox> So, imho any Debian Developer is an Ubuntu Developer.
<xnox> however DMs are inherently less trusted within Debian itself.
<ScottK> They are approximately equally trusted for specific packages however.
<xnox> I do not feel that extending DMs to be PPUs is justified as is. There are no gurantees said people pass/know debian policies & procedures (both legal/dfsg and technical)
<ScottK> The approximation being they can't upload through New.
<xnox> how can one assert it would be easy enough for them to pick up Ubuntu quarks?
<xnox> from the DMs that I have sponsored, I've been monitoring and spotting clearly broken uploads into Debian. =(
<ScottK> xnox: If you'd seen some of the "not very good" stuff I see uploaded in Debian as a member of the FTP Team, you'd be much less sanguine about what DDs know.
<xnox> (sponsored - that is granted DM rights)
<xnox> ScottK: rolf =)
<ScottK> It's true.
<Laney> These people have to go through one round with the DMB
<xnox> Laney: yeah,
<Laney> at which we will check their understanding of Ubuntu things
<xnox> ok.
<xnox> I don't have any other questions, is everyone ready to vote on this?
<ScottK> \o
<Laney> I can only think of pocock and now Laibsch who actually take advantage of it atm
<Laney> Let's go
 * bdrung_work is ready.
<xnox> #vote Extend DD PPU requirement to cover DMs too
<meetingology> Please vote on: Extend DD PPU requirement to cover DMs too
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<ScottK> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from ScottK
<xnox> -1
<meetingology> -1 received from xnox
<bdrung_work> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from bdrung_work
<Laney> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Laney
<xnox> stgraber: ?
<stgraber> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from stgraber
<xnox> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Extend DD PPU requirement to cover DMs too
<meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:1 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
 * xnox is not sure if this motion is actually carried or not, and whether we need bdmurray and/or micah's vote here
<xnox> Laney: ? ^
<Laney> 4x+1 = carried
<xnox> yeah
<xnox> cool
<xnox> thought about it after typing - the outcome is without a daubt.
<Laney> My phone just alarmed to remind me about DMB
<xnox> so
<bdrung_work> Laney, no, +4 in sum is needed
<Laney> No
<Laney> It's why we can vote on applicants without everyone present
<Laney> If something gets to +4 then -3 still leaves you with +1
<bdrung_work> yes
<xnox> #topic Any Other Business take #2
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Developer Membership Board Meeting 2014-11-17 | Current topic: Any Other Business take #2
<xnox> ....unless we want to continue discussing politics and voting systems
<ScottK> So did we agree it passed?
<Laney> There are 3 threads ongoing, please reply to them
<bdrung_work> if someone from the absent members give a +1, it passes
<xnox> ScottK: i believe it has passed, as the absolute majority is in favour.
<xnox> ScottK: and there is no tie, even with extra votes from bdmurray & mica
<ScottK> OK.
<ScottK> I thought so too, but I wanted to make sure there's no confusion.
<ScottK> bdrung_work seems to disagree.
<xnox> Laney: what threats?
<bdrung_work> if we use the same voting mechanism that we use for applicant
<xnox> bdrung_work: given that we operate on 50%+1 majority (aka 1:1 majority) the outcome is without a daubt, and we do not require an 2:1 majority for applicant voting.
<Laney> 1) Laibsch PPU 2) Noskcaj MOTU 3) input-methods packageset
 * bdrung_work has to leave now.
<xnox> bdrung_work: however, I'd like to know bdmurray's opinion.
<xnox> Laney: isn't 1 & 2 requested to be processed via email
<Laney> yes
 * xnox looks at the input-methods packageset
<Laney> that's why I said please reply to the threads :)
<xnox> i have not actually followed that thread.
<bdrung_work> xnox, the +4 requirement was to enable more fine grained declines (by voting +0 or -1)
<xnox> Laney: i'll follow up on the email threats later over email.
<Laney> ty
<xnox> bdmurray: ditto needs follow up on the mailing list.
<xnox> i guess that's it for today?
<Laney> I think we had a similar conversation about voting systems a couple of years ago
<Laney> maybe I remember the outcome wrong
<Laney> would be helpful for bdrung to find the conclusion
<Laney> (it went to the TB back then)
<xnox> meh ok.
<Laney> maybe #action him :)
<xnox> #action cjwatson: as a returning officer: given 7 voters, and "Votes for:4 Votes against:1 Abstentions:0" collected to date, is the outcome without a doubt or do we need extra +1 votes?
<meetingology> ACTION: cjwatson: as a returning officer: given 7 voters, and "Votes for:4 Votes against:1 Abstentions:0" collected to date, is the outcome without a doubt or do we need extra +1 votes?
<Laney> *cough* or bdmurray could just vote
<Laney> a "returning officer"?
<xnox> Laney: yes, a standard practice in traditional british voting and polling mechanisms, where ex-members are invited to oversee the process as independent party ;-)
<Laney> Haha.
 * xnox thinks cjwatson would be an excellent returning officer given the history of the boards and committees he has been on (including the DMB)
<Laney> We could just dig up the old thread
<xnox> anyway, we are past the hour, follow up on the irc
<xnox> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Nov 17 16:05:01 2014 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-11-17-15.10.moin.txt
<Laney> thanks for chairing
<xnox> Laney: kein problemo, mon senor
<cjwatson> xnox,Laney: no doubt you should dig up the old thread; I'm having trouble seeing how this isn't carried though, unless every motion effectively has some kind of supermajority requirement
<Laney> http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.ubuntu.devel.technical-board/483 is certainly related
<ScottK> That's the last message in the thread, so I think it's pretty clearly decided.
<Laney> That's him sending it to the CC I think
<Laney> but this list archive is private and I don't know where to look for the outcome
 * ScottK takes it as "SABDFL has spoken" so we can move on.
<Laney> :)
<ScottK> BTW, TB vice CC.
<Laney> See the message up-thread, the TB decided to have the CC decide
<ScottK> Oh.
<Laney> czajkowski: dholbach: could one of you please read that ^ thread in community-council@ and see if you can find the outcome?
<Laney> I'm sure it is in public somewhere but I can't find it
<dholbach> Laney, there was no further discussion in the thread on the CC list
<Laney> Well, I guess that's that then
<jjohansen> \o
<jdstrand> hi!
 * jdstrand is happy to start the meeting nearly on time this week
<jdstrand> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Nov 17 16:36:04 2014 UTC.  The chair is jdstrand. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<jdstrand> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<jdstrand> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Announcements
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Announcements
<jdstrand> Thanks to Jonathan Riddell (Riddell) who provided debdiffs for lucid-utopic for konversation (LP: #1389296) and debdiffs for precise-utopic for kde-workspace (LP: #1389665). Your work is very much appreciated and will keep our users secure. Great job! :)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1389296 in konversation (Ubuntu Vivid) "konversation: out-of-bounds read on a heap-allocated array" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1389296
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1389665 in kde-workspace (Ubuntu Utopic) "privilage escalation in clock kcontrol" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1389665
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<jdstrand> I'll go first
<Riddell> jdstrand: got another one coming shortly..
<chrisccoulson> hi!
<jdstrand> Riddell: cool, thanks! mention it in #ubuntu-hardened (or just subscribe ubuntu-security-sponsors) and we'll get someone assigned
<jdstrand> so, the good news is I actually got to quite a few updates last week, which was nice
<jdstrand> the PM team wanted to get a couple of policy updates in for rtm though, so between that and some embargoed work, I didn't get to a number of things I set out to do last week
<jdstrand> for this week
<jdstrand> I have more embargoed work
<jdstrand> I'm on triage
<jdstrand> I need to finish up my apparmor-easyprof-ubuntu updates for vivid
<jdstrand> finish the 0.3 click-apparmor upload
<jdstrand> have more click-reviewers-tools updates that came up last week (I did get to a few fixes there, but need to add these new ones)
<jdstrand> I think this is the week for me adding derivative branches support to UCT
<jdstrand> I hope to finish my upstream patch for docker so it can apply policy based on parser capabilities
<jdstrand> and then I will be attending the cloud sprint on wednesday since they are in town
<jdstrand> that sounds like an awful lot-- 3 of those are close to done, so hopefully it is actually doable
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: you're up
<mdeslaur> \o
<mdeslaur> I'm on community this week
<mdeslaur> I'm currently working on sponsoring quassel updates
<mdeslaur> I have an embargoed issue to test and release
<mdeslaur> and have further updates beyond that, the list is growing again :P
<mdeslaur> that's about it, sbeattie, you're up
<tyhicks> I'll go and we can circle back to him
<tyhicks> I need to publish an update for apparmor in trusty today (prep and testing is already done)
<tyhicks> I'll have to knock off all the dust on the instruction manual before doing so
<jdstrand> heh
<mdeslaur> tyhicks: is that just for that particular bug, or does it have the tools updates in it too?
<tyhicks> mdeslaur: it is only for that bug
<mdeslaur> tyhicks: you mean re-learn the secret handshake :)
<tyhicks> mdeslaur: it'll be going to -security
<mdeslaur> ah, right, cool
<tyhicks> mdeslaur: at least this handshake is well documented :)
<tyhicks> after that, my focus for this week will be on fixing bug #1390592 and making the apparmor cache handling code a library
<ubottu> bug 1390592 in apparmor (Ubuntu Trusty) "'ptrace peer=@{profile_name}' does not work on 14.04 (at least) with docker" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1390592
<tyhicks> both of those were on my plate last week but the apparmor bug kept me from accomplishing much there
<tyhicks> that's it for me
<tyhicks> jjohansen: you're up
<jjohansen> I need to finish up a kernel sync of apparmor for vivid, after which I will get back to working on apparmor stacking
<jdstrand> tyhicks: isn't 1390592 the bug for the trusty update?
<tyhicks> jdstrand: yes - I meant bug #1362469
<ubottu> bug 1362469 in dbus (Ubuntu) "AppArmor unrequested reply protection generates unallowable denials" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1362469
<jdstrand> jjohansen: didn't mean to interrupt, please continue
<jjohansen> np
<jjohansen> hopefully I will spend some more time poking at the upstreaming of apparmor's labeling bits this week as well
<jjohansen> that is it for me, sarnold you're up
<sarnold> I'm in the happy place this week
<sarnold> last week, on community, otto provided a debdiff for trusty's mariadb-5.5, but I hadn't noticed that utopic didn't already have the 5.5.40 release. So, this week I'll be picking pu the pieces from that update
<sarnold> I also have two MIRs to work on, thanks for submitting those nice and early in the cycle :)
<sarnold> and I know there's some outstanding apparmor patches that need review. I'd like to make a sweep through that if there's time left over.
<sarnold> that's it for me, chrisccoulson?
<jdstrand> sarnold: I didn't pay attention on friday-- did you get to tvoss code review?
<sarnold> jdstrand: yes, it looked good to me, I had some follow-up questions that I'm curious about but don't warrant blocking that update from being pushed in
<jdstrand> nice, thanks
<mdeslaur> sarnold: If you run out of things to do, I'd appreciate help with some updates
<sarnold> mdeslaur: okay, thanks
<chrisccoulson> this week, I've got an oxide update (and hopefully chromium too). Will also be reviewing updates to the mediahub branch. Other than that, it's business as usual
<chrisccoulson> I'm done btw :)
<chrisccoulson> I need to drop out btw. I've got to go to the chemist to pick up some antibiotics for one of my kids
<jdstrand> chrisccoulson: thanks
 * sbeattie is here
<sbeattie> jdstrand: I can give my status update
<sbeattie> I'm still working on gcc pie-by-default for amd64; I have gcc packages in https://launchpad.net/~sbeattie/+archive/ubuntu/gcc-pie-amd64/+packages along with a rebuilt glibc
<sbeattie> I've been trying local builds against it, but keep running into FTBFS with packages (postgres, ruby, python) that aren't caused by my changes, the original build fails (usually in a testsuite) as well.
<sbeattie> I've rebuilt a couple of packages successfully and verified the binaries are pie on amd64.
<mdeslaur> cool
<sbeattie> I need to clean up the gcc patch a bit, and look at its additional testsuite failures.
<sbeattie> Other than that I have some apparmor patches to review.
<sbeattie> That's pretty much it for me.
<sbeattie> jdstrand: back to you.
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
<jdstrand> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.
<jdstrand> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/gpw.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/eet.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/icecast2.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/claws-mail-extra-plugins.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/xbuffy.html
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
<jdstrand> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
<jdstrand> mdeslaur, sbeattie, tyhicks, jjohansen, sarnold, chrisccoulson: thanks!
<jdstrand> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Nov 17 17:16:56 2014 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-11-17-16.36.moin.txt
<sbeattie> thanks, jdstrand
<tyhicks> thanks!
<jjohansen> thanks jdstrand
<mdeslaur> thanks jdstrand!
<sarnold> jdstrand: thanks!
#ubuntu-meeting 2014-11-18
<albertus> hello anybody
<jsalisbury> #startmeeting
<jsalisbury> ##
<jsalisbury> ## This is the Ubuntu Kernel Team weekly status meeting.
<jsalisbury> ##
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Nov 18 17:01:19 2014 UTC.  The chair is jsalisbury. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Vivid
<jsalisbury> # Meeting Etiquette
<jsalisbury> #
<jsalisbury> # NOTE: '..' indicates that you are finished with your input.
<jsalisbury> #       'o/' indicates you have something to add (please wait until you are recognized)
<jsalisbury> Roll Call for Ubuntu Kernel Weekly Status Meeting
<cking> o/
<kamal> o/
<henrix> o/
<smb> o/
<ppisati> o/
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
<jsalisbury> Release metrics and incoming bug data can be reviewed at the following link:
<jsalisbury> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/kt-meeting.txt
<jsalisbury> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Vivid Development Kernel (ogasawara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Vivid Development Kernel (ogasawara)
<jsalisbury> The master-next branch of our Vivid kernel has been rebased to the
<jsalisbury> v3.18-rc5 upstream kernel.  We have still withheld uploading to
<jsalisbury> the archive until we've progressed to a later -rc candidate.
<jsalisbury> -----
<jsalisbury> Important upcoming dates:
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/VividVervet/ReleaseSchedule
<jsalisbury> Thurs Dec 18 - Vivid Alpha 1 (~4 weeks away)
<jsalisbury> Thurs Jan 22 - Vivid Alpha 2 (~9 weeks away)
<jsalisbury> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: CVE's
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: CVE's
<jsalisbury> The current CVE status can be reviewed at the following link:
<jsalisbury> http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/cve/pkg/ALL-linux.html
<jsalisbury> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Utopic/Trusty/Precise/Lucid (bjf/henrix/kamal/arges)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Utopic/Trusty/Precise/Lucid (bjf/henrix/kamal/arges)
<henrix> Status for the main kernels, until today (18-Nov):
<henrix>   *   Lucid - Verification & Testing
<henrix>   * Precise - Verification & Testing
<henrix>   *  Trusty - Verification & Testing
<henrix>   *  Utopic - Verification & Testing
<henrix>  
<henrix> Current opened tracking bugs details:
<henrix>   * http://kernel.ubuntu.com/sru/kernel-sru-workflow.html
<henrix> For SRUs, SRU report is a good source of information:
<henrix>   * http://kernel.ubuntu.com/sru/sru-report.html
<henrix>  
<henrix> Schedule:
<henrix>  
<henrix> cycle: 31-Oct through 22-Nov
<henrix> ====================================================================
<henrix>          31-Oct   Last day for kernel commits for this cycle
<henrix> 02-Nov - 08-Nov   Kernel prep week.
<henrix> 09-Nov - 15-Nov   Bug verification & Regression testing.
<henrix> 16-Nov - 22-Nov   Regression testing & Release to -updates.
<henrix>  
<henrix> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
<jsalisbury> Thanks everyone
<jsalisbury> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Nov 18 17:04:44 2014 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-11-18-17.01.moin.txt
<kamal> thanks jsalisbury
<wxl> #ubuntu-us-or
<wxl> as belkinsa i think people just sit and wait for the next meeting :)
<belkinsa> Yeah, I don't know who is the chair of this meeting will be.
<wxl> oh boy
 * skellat suggests belkinsa take a wild guess
 * wxl pokes skellat 
<belkinsa> You, skellat?
<skellat> Bingo
<skellat> Though we may not be quorate
<wxl> yay
<belkinsa> Oh boy.
<wxl> well lesse jose's at uni
<belkinsa> That is always a issue.
<jose> I'm not
<wxl> oh you're not?
<wxl> wow
<jose> here for 15m
<wxl> there we've got two :)
<wxl> sergio is rarely on
<wxl> that leaves PabloRubianes and costales
<skellat> #startmeeting Regular LoCo Council Meeting for November 2014
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Nov 18 20:00:57 2014 UTC.  The chair is skellat. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Regular LoCo Council Meeting for November 2014 | Current topic:
<jose> Pablo is out
<skellat> #topic Opening Business
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Regular LoCo Council Meeting for November 2014 | Current topic: Opening Business
<skellat> #subtopic Listing of Sitting Members of LoCo Council
<skellat> #info For the avoidance of uncertainty and doubt, it is necessary to list the members of the council who are presently serving active terms.
<skellat> #info Marcos Costales, term expiring 2015-04-16
<skellat> #info Jose Antonio Rey, term expiring 2015-10-04
<skellat> #info Pablo Rubianes, term expiring 2015-04-16
<skellat> #info Sergio Meneses, term expiring 2015-10-04
<skellat> #info Stephen Michael Kellat, term expiring 2015-10-04
<skellat> #info There is currently one vacant seat on LoCo Council
<belkinsa> Can we have the link to the agenda?
<skellat> #subtopic Roll Call
<skellat> At this point we need to proceed with a roll call of LoCo Council members.
<skellat> A quorum to transact business during today's meeting is 3.
<skellat> During the following vote members of the council should vote "+1" to indicate their presence.
<skellat> #voters PabloRubianes SergioMeneses skellat jose costales
<meetingology> Warning: Nick not in channel: SergioMeneses
<meetingology> Current voters: PabloRubianes SergioMeneses costales jose skellat
<skellat> #votesrequired 3
<meetingology> votes now need 3 to be passed
<skellat> #vote LoCo Council Roll Call (All Members Present To Vote In Favor To Register Attendance)
<meetingology> Please vote on: LoCo Council Roll Call (All Members Present To Vote In Favor To Register Attendance)
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<jose> _1
<jose> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from jose
<skellat> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from skellat
 * wxl cues Final Jeopardy music
<jose> :P
<skellat> We'll wait a couple moments to see if any other Council members arrive
 * belkinsa nods
<wxl> not having quorum is kind of sad :/
<belkinsa> +1
<wxl> hahahha ncie try
<jose> :P
<wxl> maybe if one of us takes up the vacant seat :)
<skellat> Does any other member of the Council wish to indicate their attendance at this regularly scheduled meeting?
<skellat> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: LoCo Council Roll Call (All Members Present To Vote In Favor To Register Attendance)
<meetingology> Votes for:2 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion denied
 * wxl sighs
<skellat> #topic Referral of matters to Council for disposition outside this meeting due to a lack of quorum
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Regular LoCo Council Meeting for November 2014 | Current topic: Referral of matters to Council for disposition outside this meeting due to a lack of quorum
<skellat> #action ubuntu-lococouncil To handle the Re-Verification application of Ubuntu Oregon via bugmail
<skellat> #action skellat To impose the case management bug for Ubuntu Oregon and notify Point of Contact for Ubuntu Oregon
<skellat> The Re-Verification Application for Ubuntu Oregon: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/OregonTeam/ReVerificationApplications/2014
<meetingology> ACTION: ubuntu-lococouncil To handle the Re-Verification application of Ubuntu Oregon via bugmail
<meetingology> ACTION: skellat To impose the case management bug for Ubuntu Oregon and notify Point of Contact for Ubuntu Oregon
<wxl> thank you skellat
<wxl> we as the Ubuntu Oregon Team appreciate your effort
<wxl> right guys/ :)
<skellat> #action ubuntu-lococouncil To receive further After-Action Reports on Ubuntu Online Summit 1411 via e-mail at loco-council@lists.ubuntu.com
<skellat> #info Ubuntu Online Summit was fairly busy for the LoCo Council even though, again, we had difficulty attending.
<skellat> #info Multiple workitems were picked up by the Council during the event.
<skellat> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/development-1411-iso-l10n-uefi
<meetingology> ACTION: ubuntu-lococouncil To receive further After-Action Reports on Ubuntu Online Summit 1411 via e-mail at loco-council@lists.ubuntu.com
<skellat> http://summit.ubuntu.com/uos-1411/meeting/22380/development-1411-iso-l10n-uefi/
<skellat> #info ISO Localization -- Survey LoCo teams as to tools being used for localization. How many times has the wheel been re-invented? What changes are being made?
<skellat> #info ISO Localization -- Contact ubuntu-devel for the three issues (1. use of ubuntu-defaults-builder to make 64-bit signed ISOs; 2. how to simplify use for LoCos; 3. how do we integrate the various hacks)
<skellat> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/community-1411-planning-v-cycle-events
<skellat> http://summit.ubuntu.com/uos-1411/meeting/22366/community-1411-planning-v-cycle-events/
<skellat> #info Community Events During the Vivid Cycle -- Develop in concert with Canonical Community Team appropriate feedback mechanism and measurements tools for assessment of UGJ
<skellat> #info Community Events During the Vivid Cycle -- Assess the state of social media usage by LoCo Teams and look at developing best practices.
<skellat> #info Community Events During the Vivid Cycle -- Develop review of question: How do we "follow the zeitgeist" in terms of maximizing use of social networks in approaching users
<skellat> #info Community Events During the Vivid Cycle -- Develop plan for AskUbuntu Patrol game/project/exercise including challenge coins for UGJ 1 to 2 during 15.04 cycle
<skellat> #info Community Events During the Vivid Cycle -- Cooperate with Canonical Community Team in developing developing AskUbuntu documentation for Patrol game/project/exercise
<skellat> #info Relevant sessions where we should have had attendance but did include: LoCo Team Activity Review, Promoting the Ubuntu phone in LoCos, Ubuntu Oregon LoCo meet and greet and planning, Transparency and Participation
<skellat> #action ubuntu-lococouncil To review the state of community teams being verified
<meetingology> ACTION: ubuntu-lococouncil To review the state of community teams being verified
<skellat> #info As per their request made by blog post, Ubuntu Vancouver has been removed from the ~locoteams set on Launchpad
<skellat> http://randall.executiv.es/we-are-NOT-loco
<skellat> #info The next regular meeting is scheduled for December 15, 2014.  The meeting will be convened at 2000 UTC.
<skellat> Time conversion for the next scheduled meeting: http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=LoCo+Council+December+2014+Meeting&iso=20141215T20&p1=1440&ah=1
<skellat> #info All persons with questions, concerns, or business to come before LoCo Council before the next regularly scheduled meeting should write to the Council at loco-council@lists.ubuntu.com so that we may be made aware of concerns and potentially proceed to action.
<skellat> #action skellat to post report of meeting to blog and loco-contacts@lists.ubuntu.com
<meetingology> ACTION: skellat to post report of meeting to blog and loco-contacts@lists.ubuntu.com
<skellat> #topic Any Other Business
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Regular LoCo Council Meeting for November 2014 | Current topic: Any Other Business
<skellat> Are there any comments or discussions to come before us briefly?
 * jose gives meetingology a cookie
<wxl> tl;dr Oregon folks, that means our Re-Verification Application will be voted on via the loco-council mailing list. right, skellat?
<jose> wxl: that's correct
<belkinsa> I have one thing but I think I might just e-mail the LC.
<skellat> wxl: Technically it will be a Launchpad bug.  Check your inbox later today once I get the bug setup.
<jose> if you have any comments you would like to add for the re-verification, just email us with them :)
<wxl> skellat: oh better yet. thanks!
<wxl> to be clear then, should we add comments to the bug report or email?
<skellat> wxl: The bug report once it is opened
<wxl> k thanks skellat
 * skellat gives jose a cookie
 * skellat gives meetingology a cookie
 * jose snags cookie
<skellat> The lack of quorum will be discussed on the mailing list.
<skellat> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Nov 18 20:09:24 2014 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-11-18-20.00.moin.txt
<sgclark> hello
<wxl> you missed the whole thing, sgclark
<jose> hey, sgclark
<belkinsa> The LC's, skellat?
<skellat> belkinsa: For now, yes.
<wxl> if you would have been here, we would have got accepted, sgclark
 * teward steals the cookie intended for meetingology, and gives it to wxl instead
<belkinsa> Okay, I might bring up my point to you guys
 * wxl is kidding :)
<wxl> sgclark: they're going to handle the voting via a bug report. i'll provide more info when i have it.
<wxl> jose: as a slight aside, any movement on the mailing list admin front?
<jose> wxl: confirmed lam - ont that he could proceed (don't wanna highlight him)
<jose> it was on hold since they had no confirmation :)
<wxl> oh!
<belkinsa> wxl, you might need to report back to your LoCo on what happened.
<wxl> belkinsa: i plan on it once i get the bug report.
<belkinsa> Ah.
<jose> wxl: bare in mind, it'll be a private bugs
<jose> bug*
<wxl> oic
<wxl> jose: shared with the launchpad loco team or me specifically?
<jose> wxl: with you
<wxl> jose: ok, i'll inform them to actually mail the loco team or to filter comments through me
<jose> cool, thanks :)
<wxl> thank you jose. you're always so darn helpful. :)
<jose> any time
<wxl> alright well i guess i'm going to take off
<wxl> thanks again skellat for helping make this happen
<belkinsa> See ya, thanks for  the meetimg
#ubuntu-meeting 2014-11-19
<joern_> hi everyone, hi amjjawad!
<amjjawad> Hello joern_
<amjjawad> Hi everyone, I am here and waiting the start :)
<eliasps> Hello :)
<Destine> hi
<amjjawad> Hello eliasps :)
<rafaellaguna_> amjjawad ;)
<amjjawad> Hello rafaellaguna_ :D
<eliasps> Destine, amjjawad, rafaellaguna :)
<amjjawad> I guess I just have to wait until someone starts the meeting, correct?!
<jared> amjjawad: we need quorum to start
<jared> !rmb
<ubottu> cjohnston, cyphermox, Destine, ejat,  hggdh, IdleOne, iulian, micahg,  Pendulum, PabloRubienes, freeflying, jared, s-fox, amachu, and chilicuil. Meeting time.
<amjjawad> Okay, thanks jared :)
<popey> hmm
<popey> I'm not listed there (still)
<popey> nor is rick
<amjjawad> Hello popey :)
<jared> Sorry popey, I guess we could update that and it would no doubt help
<popey> ubottu: rmb is cjohnston, cyphermox, Destine, ejat,  hggdh, IdleOne, iulian, micahg,  Pendulum, PabloRubienes, freeflying, jared, s-fox, amachu, chilicuil, rickspencer3 and popey. Meeting time.
<ubottu> But rmb already means something else!
<rickspencer3> o/
<popey> ubottu: no rmb is cjohnston, cyphermox, Destine, ejat,  hggdh, IdleOne, iulian, micahg,  Pendulum, PabloRubienes, freeflying, jared, s-fox, amachu, chilicuil, rickspencer3 and popey. Meeting time.
<ubottu> I'll remember that popey
<popey> !rmb
<ubottu> rmb is cjohnston, cyphermox, Destine, ejat,  hggdh, IdleOne, iulian, micahg,  Pendulum, PabloRubienes, freeflying, jared, s-fox, amachu, chilicuil, rickspencer3 and popey. Meeting time.
<popey> \o/
<Destine> ~
<jared> #startmeeting 2200 UTC Ubuntu Membership Board
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Nov 19 12:13:15 2014 UTC.  The chair is jared. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | 2200 UTC Ubuntu Membership Board Meeting | Current topic:
<jared> Hello and welcome to the Ubuntu Membership Review Board for the 2200 UTC meeting for November 19, 2014.
<popey> Êâ¿à² 
<amjjawad> Hi everyone :)
<popey> It's rather bright outside for 22:00 UTC â»
<jared> The wiki page for the Review Board is available here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/Boards
<amjjawad> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/amjjawad
<jared> When the board is ready to vote, they will publicly vote in the channel with either +1, 0, or -1 (for membership, abstain, and against membership, respectively). If the sum of those numbers amounts to at least +1, then the applicant is now an official Ubuntu member! (feel free congratulate them!)
<jared> #votesrequired 4
<meetingology> votes now need 4 to be passed
<jared> #voters Destine popey rickspencer3
<meetingology> Current voters: Destine popey rickspencer3
<jared> #topic amjjawad's application for membership
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | 2200 UTC Ubuntu Membership Board Meeting | Current topic: amjjawad's application for membership
<jared> amjjawad: please introduce yourself to the board and we'll review your wiki
<popey> hi amjjawad
<amjjawad> Hi everyone :)
<amjjawad> amjjawad is my user name. My name is Ali
<amjjawad> Glad to be here :)
<popey> amjjawad: hiya, so there's a lot of stuff listed at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/amjjawad
<popey> amjjawad: What do you consider to be your primary focus?
<amjjawad> popey, hello and yes indeed. That for 4 years :)
<amjjawad> Ubuntu GNOME first, StartUbuntu second :) and Ubuntu Quality third
<popey> You certainly have a lot of testimonials!
<amjjawad> popey, I've been part of several project for 4 years
<popey> What do you have planned for Ubuntu GNOME for the coming months?
<amjjawad> Ubuntu Forums, Lubuntu, Ubuntu GNOME, Ubuntu Quality, etc
<amjjawad> I am the community manager/leader so I focus on building a strong community while Tim (the head dev) focus on the technical side
<amjjawad> Every cycle, I introduce new changes to the project
<amjjawad> shall I share some?
<amjjawad> Ubuntu GNOME has many good stuff that no other community has :)
<amjjawad> I have started last cycle a new sub-team for Human Resources :)
<amjjawad> some (just some) of what I have done recently: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuGNOME/GettingInvolved/Roles
<amjjawad> and: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuGNOME/CycleAssessment/UtopicUnicorn
<popey> That's a lot of roles to fill!
<amjjawad> By the way, it is me who created all this: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuGNOME/WikiMap
<amjjawad> all these pages I mean
<amjjawad> well, this is me :) my ambition has no limits :)
<popey> Right, but finding people to contribute to all of that must be difficult?
<amjjawad> I never give up. It is very hard indeed but I enjoy it a lot
<amjjawad> I have recruited many people to Lubuntu for 2 years
<amjjawad> I played a major part within Lubuntu in many areas
<amjjawad> what I have achieved in Lubuntu in 2 years, I have done it with Ubuntu GNOME in 6 months
<popey> What do you find most rewarding in Ubuntu?
<amjjawad> with Lubuntu, things where there but I improved them
<amjjawad> with Ubuntu GNOME, had to start from scratch
<amjjawad> the sub-teams here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuGNOME/SubTeams it is me who created that
<amjjawad> it is the power of we
<amjjawad> all of us are smarter than anyone of us
<amjjawad> I do adore Ubuntu's Philosophy
<amjjawad> This Philosophy will never fail :)
<popey> Ok, I don't have any other questions. Anyone else?>
<rickspencer3> I don't
<jared> Just reading of a few links still, sorry, shouldn't be long
<amjjawad> no worries, take your time :)
<jared> amjjawad: okay it seems everyone is ready
<jared> #vote amjjawad for Ubuntu Membership
<meetingology> Please vote on: amjjawad for Ubuntu Membership
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<rickspencer3> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from rickspencer3
<popey> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from popey
<Destine> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Destine
<jared> +1
<jared> #voters Destine popey rickspencer3 jared
<meetingology> Current voters: Destine jared popey rickspencer3
<jared> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from jared
<popey> Congratulations amjjawad !
<jared> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: amjjawad for Ubuntu Membership
<meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<Destine> amjjawad, congrats!
<njalk_> Grats Ali =)
<amjjawad> thank you so much, popey and everyone else :)
<popey> :D
<amjjawad> thanks a lot, Destine and njalk_ :D
<eliasps> Congratulations amjjawad!
<jared> Congratulations amjjawad, thank you for your efforts
<amjjawad> many thanks eliasps :)
<amjjawad> thank you for your time, jared and appreciate that :)
<rafaellaguna_> congrats, bro!
<amjjawad> rafaellaguna_, :D thank you :D
<rafaellaguna_> welcome "aboard"
<amjjawad> :D
<joern_> congrats amjjawad!
<amjjawad> it is great that someone who knows me for 4 years and worked with me is here rafaellaguna_ :D
<amjjawad> thanks a lot, my good friend, joern_ :D
<rafaellaguna_> oh but of course! anyway, I already knew what was going to happen ;)
<amjjawad> rafaellaguna_, :D
<rafaellaguna_> good! lunch time for celebrate. see you later, my friend
<amjjawad> enjoy your meal, brother
<amjjawad> it is bed time in my time zone :P
<jared> Well as there are no more applicants I might close the meeting
<jared> Happy for conversation to keep going afterwards I just want to close it officially for the logs
<amjjawad> thank you everyone for your time
<jared> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Nov 19 12:38:46 2014 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-11-19-12.13.moin.txt
<amjjawad> Thanks again, everyone
<amjjawad> can I leave now? it is 23:40 here
<jared> amjjawad: any time you want :)
<amjjawad> jared, thank you so much :)
<amjjawad> must get ready .. have yet another long day tomorrow ... cya and thanks everyone and it is very great to be one of the Ubuntu members
<eliasps> amjjawad you deserve it. Keep up the good work!
<eliasps> See you and congratulations!
<amjjawad> eliasps, thanks a million :) and will sure do ;)
<amjjawad> Cya all
<hggdh> OK. time for the IRC meeting
<hggdh> #startmeeting IRC Team
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Nov 19 18:01:52 2014 UTC.  The chair is hggdh. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | IRC Team Meeting | Current topic:
<hggdh> we start with the usual
<hggdh> #topic Review #ubuntu-ops-team
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | IRC Team Meeting | Current topic: Review #ubuntu-ops-team
<hggdh> anything noteworthy here?
 * Pici waves
<hggdh> Pici: hi, thank you
<hggdh> at least there are two of us here at the meeting
<Pici> huzzah
<hggdh> OK. Nothing noteworthy. Moving on
<Pici> Agreed
<hggdh> #topic Review last meetings action items
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | IRC Team Meeting | Current topic: Review last meetings action items
<hggdh> I do not remember any useful action items from last meeting.
<hggdh> moving on
<hggdh> #topic Open items in the IRCC tracker
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | IRC Team Meeting | Current topic: Open items in the IRCC tracker
<Pici> I just noticed that the IRCC tracker seems to be down.
<rww> o/
<hggdh> nevertheless, we also have Lars
<Pici> "Fatal Error: Contact system adminstrator."
<hggdh> rww: go ahead
<rww> was just saying hi :)
<hggdh> heh
<hggdh> Pici: who admins it?
<rww> (missed the start of the meeting because IRL)
<Pici> jussi did.
<Pici> or tsimpson perhaps
 * hggdh notes verbe's tense
<hggdh> anyway, I think this is a good point to get a closure on Lars/SamwiseGamgee/finrod
<Pici> I'll poke them on the status of it anyway.
<rww> i think it's currently tsimpson. not 100% sure though
<hggdh> So. The IRCC had agreed that this user should receive the last chance. We (specifically, *I*) started to work on it, but received a strong disagreement from the ops-at-large
<Pici> strong is an understatement
<hggdh> as such, the IRCC bows to the will of the people, and declares the issue closed. Lars/SamwiseGamgee/finrod will still be banned from some of the core #ubuntu channels.
<hggdh> anyone wishes to comment further on this?
<Pici> I've said it before, imo the job of the IRCC is to both represent the users and the operators.  We would be doing the latter a disservice by continuing to let a single user take advantage of us.
 * hggdh assumes no one. Moving on
<Pici> (was typing and thinking)
<hggdh> I agree, and I never disagreed with it, or stated otherwise. I still had hope, nevertheless, that the ops-at-large disagreement would have been expressed with more civility.
<hggdh> but this is not for here and now
<Pici> indeed.
<hggdh> moving on
<hggdh> #topic Review Bugs related to the Ubuntu IRC Council
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | IRC Team Meeting | Current topic: Review Bugs related to the Ubuntu IRC Council
<Pici> The only one there is the one regarding a floodbot rewrite.
<Pici> I think it might be okay to close it... we have unopaste now, and drone is out there doing testing things.
<Pici> thoughts?
<hggdh> well.
<hggdh> I would still keep the bug open, but updated with the fact that unopaste is in, and drone is being tried
<Pici> Fair enough.  I'll take care of that.
<hggdh> (we still do not have a real replacement for the flood bots
<hggdh> moving on
<hggdh> well, the factoid review, and the call for operators are from the old (last) meeting. I think we can bypass these two
<hggdh> #topic Membership applications
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | IRC Team Meeting | Current topic: Membership applications
<hggdh> here we have phunyguy applying for Ubuntu membership
<Pici> \o/
<hggdh> wiki at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/phunyguy
<hggdh> LP at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/phunyguy
<rww> (is IRCC quorum 2 or 3?)
<phunyguy> o/
<hggdh> that's a good question... I myself do not know the answer
<cprofitt> how many people are on the ircc?
<hggdh> and it seems there are only two of us here
<elfy> hggdh: isn't IRCC only 2 people at present with resignations?
<rww> cprofitt: 3 seats filled of 5
<rww> so would be 2 if we count filled and 3 if we count how many there are supposed to be
<cprofitt> with two seats empty I would think 2 of 3 is a qurom
<rww> excellent
<hggdh> On the other hand, we are, at the moment, totalling 3 council seats. So -- methinks -- 2 out of 3 is majority
<cprofitt> its usually 2/3rds of the people
<hggdh> so. Anyone wishes to drill phunyguy on his application for membership
<rww> elfy: 3. Tm_T, hggdh, Pici
 * phunyguy is away (not here)
<phunyguy> :)
<hggdh> (I personally have seen his work, and have no questions)
<phunyguy> I will gladly answer any.
<hggdh> #voters Pici hggdh Tm_T
<meetingology> Current voters: Pici Tm_T hggdh
<hggdh> #vote on Ubuntu membership for phunyguy
<meetingology> Please vote on: on Ubuntu membership for phunyguy
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<hggdh> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from hggdh
<phunyguy> \o/
<Pici> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Pici
<phunyguy> \o/!
<Pici> :)
<hggdh> giving Tm_T a few seconds to vote...
<hggdh> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: on Ubuntu membership for phunyguy
<meetingology> Votes for:2 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<hggdh> long enough
<hggdh> phunyguy: welcome in :-)
<phunyguy> thank you!
<Pici> huzzah!
<rww> erry's active, if you need a priest^Wstaffer
<Pici> congrats phunyguy  :)
<elfy> congrats phunyguy :)
<rww> congrats :)
<phunyguy> :)
<hggdh> phunyguy: you will have to ask an IRCC member for your cloak, if you so desire. Of course, bear in mind we are hard to be found
<cprofitt> congrats phunyguy
<hggdh> so, moving on
<hggdh> #topic Any Other Business
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | IRC Team Meeting | Current topic: Any Other Business
<phunyguy> I assume that is in #freenode
<rww> phunyguy: ask IRCC wherever, and they'll hunt down a staffer and get it sorted
<hggdh> phunyguy: no, it is on #ubuntu-irc
<phunyguy> oh whoops
<teward> phunyguy: actually you ahve to find the IRCC members, either in #ubuntu-irc or wherever, they have to hunt down staff and make the cloak request - staff then might ask you to confirm you want the cloak offered, and then all is relatively golden.
<cprofitt> hggdh: are there other topics or are you looking for some?
<teward> (sorry for the comment)
<rww> i have a couple of topics that I didn't agendize because I'm bad
<hggdh> cprofitt: I am asking
<elfy> hggdh: what's the movement on the nominations for new IRCC ?
<hggdh> rww: please go ahead, this is the whole idea on ABO, cater for the procastinators
<rww> first one was what elfy just asked
<Pici> We've had one nomination.
<hggdh> elfy: we received on single nomination. This is not eough to even begin the process.
<hggdh> s/eough/enough/
<elfy> hggdh: yea - sorry - cprofitt just let me know
<rww> another call for nominations, I guess?
<Pici> I suppose.
<hggdh> rww: I personaly would go that way. But I wonder if there will be any difference
<cprofitt> what is the potential pool for nominees?
<elfy> hggdh: iirc Membership Board had some issues last time with nominations, though different issue
<hggdh> it is clear, to me, that no current operator wants the hassle.
<rww> cprofitt: Ubuntu Members with competence at IRC, basically
<rww> hggdh: frankly I'd rather have the hassle than have an understaffed IRCC, much as it kills me to say this
 * hggdh secretly rejoices
<elfy> hggdh: I assume that IRCC needs to be IRC op
 * Pici too
<cprofitt> so they don't have to have been an IRC moderator in the past... just active on IRC and be an Ubuntu member?
<rww> elfy: no
<Pici> elfy: not a requirement
<elfy> mmm
 * cprofitt nods
<elfy> perhaps if you DO call again make that more obvious - I assumed that to be the case
<rww> Personally I prefer a good balance of current ops and non-op interested people. The latter have a good point of view that's an asset.
<hggdh> elfy: no. Anyone, as long as (1) is an Ubuntu member; (2) has working knowledge of IRC
<hggdh> rww: +1
<cprofitt> I can understand it not having to have been an op -- no need to know who to moderate, but at least a person who holds the communities values and is familiar with irc
<rww> cprofitt: exactly
<elfy> ok - clear to me now - thanks :)
<hggdh> so, I guess, the consensus is to send out a new RPN?
<hggdh> RFN even
<cprofitt> hggdh: if we do another call please let me and Elfy know and the CC can help push some notification out to the community. I wonder if people thought they had to be an irc-op to qualify
<hggdh> ack, will do
<cprofitt> we can make a concerted effort to get that message out
<hggdh> #action send out new request for nominations for the IRCC; copy CC on that (and -news)
<meetingology> ACTION: send out new request for nominations for the IRCC; copy CC on that (and -news)
<cprofitt> with the recent discussion on reinvigorating the community this would be a good opportunity to make sure we are clear when looking for people to contribute in non-technial community areas
<elfy> +1
<hggdh> cprofitt: indeed
<hggdh> rww: so, you said you had a couple of items
<rww> Other one: what's the current status of call for ops? We have a bunch of pending folks on the LP groups
<hggdh> oh
<rww> I forget if we accepted any new ops or not recently
<hggdh> missed that
<Pici> I apologize, work is asking for something that I need to attend to here.
<hggdh> do we need more ops? If so, then we can consider the call of ops season open
<Pici> so I'm going to be less vocal than I have been.
<rww> hggdh: I'm not sure. Might be something to ponder on -ops team
<hggdh> and we can review the current pending requests
<rww> -ops-team **
<hggdh> rww: yes, I agree. Here's what I propose: send out an email to -irc requesting feedback on additional ops on the core channels
<hggdh> any comments on this action?
<rww> wfm
<phunyguy> ^
<hggdh> #action send out an email to -irc requesting feedback on additional ops on the core channels
<meetingology> ACTION: send out an email to -irc requesting feedback on additional ops on the core channels
<hggdh> done (I mean, the *action* request is done)
<hggdh> more AOBs, any?
<hggdh> 5
<hggdh> 4
<hggdh> 3
<hggdh> 2
<hggdh> 1
<hggdh> OK
<hggdh> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Nov 19 18:42:13 2014 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-11-19-18.01.moin.txt
<hggdh> thank you
<rww> Next meeting is December 17th.
<rww> (for anyone else who was about to check their calendar)
<cprofitt> thanks IRCC appreciate the work you guys are doing
<cprofitt> hggdh rww Pici I appreciate all the work and time you put in to help make our community on IRC freindly and inviting.
<hggdh> rww: I can take the hint... I will update the page now
<rww> :P
<elfy> belated thanks from me too IRCC :)
<hggdh> rww: done, thank you for the poke
#ubuntu-meeting 2014-11-20
<czajkowski> c
<Laney> d
<ogra_> e
 * barry waves
<barry> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Nov 20 16:00:51 2014 UTC.  The chair is barry. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<jodh> o/
<cjwatson> hi
<bdmurray> \o
<caribou> o/
<mvo> hi
<sil2100> \o
<barry> #topic Lightening round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Lightening round
<barry> Lightning even
<barry> echo $(shuf -e barry bdmurray cjwatson doko slagasek jodh stgraber infinity sil2100 robru mvo caribou)
<barry> caribou slagasek stgraber doko sil2100 cjwatson mvo jodh bdmurray infinity barry robru
 * barry hopes he didn't miss anyone
<caribou> Yay, I get to start :)
<sil2100> You won!
<caribou> * Backport of tcpdump from Trusty to Precise into precise-backports
<caribou> * sosreport : - Eliminate delta with debian - Sync with debian
<caribou> * Completed makedumpfile/kdump-tools test environment
<caribou> (done)
<barry> we didn't have a meeting last week so feel free to report on one or two weeks
<stgraber> barry: skip me, busy at the sprint
<barry> stgraber: ack
<barry> skipping slangasek too
<sil2100> I think slangasek won't be around as well, so doko? :)
<barry> so... doko
<barry> doko: ?
<barry> going once... going twice...
<sil2100> ;)
<barry> sil2100: go for it
<sil2100> o/
<sil2100> - Holidays last week, shorter work-week \o/
<sil2100> - Landing team work, preparing landing e-mails
<sil2100> - CI Train maintenance:
<sil2100>   * Fixing the multiple bug-number bug in ci-train
<sil2100> - Improvements to the Issue Tracker:
<sil2100>   * Displaying the status of all projects related to the bug
<sil2100>   * Splitting the blocker bugs to ubuntu and ubuntu-rtm categories
<sil2100>   * More work on including the smoketesting results in the landing-email outputter
<sil2100> - Bringing the LandingTeam documentation back up-to-date
<sil2100> - RTM readiness meetings
<sil2100> - Coordinating top-blocker fixes landings for the 20/21st Nov milestone
<doko> sorry, will go at the end
<sil2100> - Writing announcement e-mails
<sil2100> - Half sick day on the 19th of November
<sil2100> (done, not much of an update though)
<cjwatson> Lots of merges.  Merges merges merges.
<cjwatson> Trying to eliminate Ruby 2.0 from vivid.  Nine reverse-dependencies left.
<cjwatson> Helped out with some odds and ends of a Click-related project.
<cjwatson> Transition planning:
<cjwatson>  - Converted auto-sync to log to web-accessible files rather than to my inbox, so that that process no longer relies on me.
<cjwatson>  - Arranged to remove myself from cron mail notifications for everything run by ubuntu-archive@snakefruit.
<cjwatson> Launchpad:
<cjwatson>  - Got ppa.launchpad.net reconfigured to serve symlinks from PPAs, so that /dists/devel/ works.
<cjwatson>  - Removed irrelevant options from populate-archive (bug 1368096).
<ubottu> bug 1368096 in Launchpad itself "populate-archive ignores --suite argument" [Low,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1368096
<cjwatson>  - Working on allowing sprints to be designated as virtual (bug 1391281).
<ubottu> bug 1391281 in Launchpad itself "Support UDS (UOS) virtual format for sprint attendance" [Low,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1391281
<cjwatson> ..
<mvo> did: spend *long* week on internal project (gtimelog list is long and boring for this audience)
<mvo> ...
<jodh> * upstart
<jodh>   - Fixed FTBFS issue relating to tests calling packaged rather than
<jodh>     generated libtool.
<jodh> * click:
<jodh>   - Worked a bit on enriching manifest data and adding tests.
<jodh> * system-image
<jodh>   - Design work.
<jodh>   - Documentation.
<jodh>   - Working on expanding scope of upgrader's abilities.
<jodh> ã
<bdmurray> worked with webops regarding amqp failues (queue down to 0, not accepting core files or retracing anything) (LP: #1394365)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1394365 in Daisy "failure to communicate with core storage can result in draining of retracing queue" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1394365
<bdmurray> added lucid, maverick to EoL releases for daisy/submit.py just in case
<bdmurray> implemented OOPS creation in the retracer.py code so OOPSes will go to oops.canonical.com for them
<bdmurray> submitted RTs to have staging and production versions of daisy updated
<bdmurray> investigation into retracing failures
<bdmurray> r581 daisy/retracer.py: do not consider all reports with RetraceOutdatedPackages in them as failures, rather make sure that the retraced report has a Stacktrace before considering it a success.
<bdmurray> wrote a script to find missing ddebs for 15.04 parsing retracer log files
<bdmurray> worked with pjdc to test a scaling stack retracer
<bdmurray> reported whoopsie bug 1390627 and added in details
<bdmurray> uploaded libproxy, libnih, google-glog, gflags, avahi, unity-gtk-module, lcms2, mir, libsecret, mtdev, nettle, libasyncns, accountsservice, network-manager-applet, gnome-bluetooth, heimdal, process-cpp, net-cpp to get ddebs for 15.04
<ubottu> bug 1390627 in whoopsie (Ubuntu) "tabs being replaced by question marks in report values" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1390627
<bdmurray> uploaded dkms hook that adds the package version to the package key fixing empty package version information in the Error Tracker
<bdmurray> UE - IS sync up call
<bdmurray> â done
<barry> no infinity i think
<barry> system-image: LP: #1390205; smoketests.  internal project.  LP: #1373467.  testing udm fixes.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1390205 in ubuntu-download-manager "udm falls over on the switch from wifi to 3g meaning ota are stuck and the system can't recover till reboot" [Critical,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1390205
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1373467 in Ubuntu system image "Support config.d directory" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1373467
<barry> debuntu: python3-genshi; debian bug #768286 (zope-interface puiparts); debian bug #769449 (ensurepip - ongoing); reviewed debian bug #769106; debian bug #752467; debian bug #770173
<ubottu> Debian bug 768286 in python3-zope.interface-dbg,python-zope.interface-dbg "python{, 3}-zope.interface-dbg: unhandled symlink to directory conversion: /usr/share/doc/PACKAGE" [Serious,Fixed] http://bugs.debian.org/768286
<ubottu> Debian bug 769449 in src:python3.4 "using ensurepip installs wheels in /usr/lib/python-wheels" [Normal,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/769449
<ubottu> Debian bug 769106 in src:python-defaults "python2.7-minimal: fails to upgrade from 'wheezy': python or pycompile not found in public_modules.rtinstall hook." [Serious,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/769106
<ubottu> Debian bug 752467 in python-virtualenv "python-virtualenv: no command "virtualenv"" [Important,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/752467
<ubottu> Debian bug 770173 in src:requests "please enable running the tests" [Normal,Fixed] http://bugs.debian.org/770173
<barry> other: python bug 22807 (uuid1 not using uuid_generate_time_safe); pybootchartgui fix; update more machines to vivid (adjusting desktop init & emacs configs); LP: #678421 (lightdm sh syntax error handling); UOS
<ubottu> bug 15442 in gnome-panel (Ubuntu) "duplicate for #22807 panels change their position between logins" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/15442
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 678421 in lightdm (Ubuntu Trusty) "Error message for a faulty ~/.profile script" [Low,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/678421
<barry> done.
<robru> one sec
<robru> * CI Train overhaul
<robru>   - Wrote all new watch_ppa capable of scanning multiple series per silo
<robru>   - worked with Ursinha on a bringup of a new deployment, fixing lots of bitrotted parts of the charm
<robru>   - Good cleanup in the testsuite, moved lots of redundantly copy&pasted logic into a single cohesive superclass for all TestCase subclasses
<robru>   - Implemented 'DotProject' class to manage .project files, consolidating redundant logic from 8 different places across 5 different files into a single coherent place.
<robru>   - Wrote a wrapper for os.path.join() which raises an exception if you accidentally pass in too many absolute paths, protecting us against an entire class of bugs
<robru>   - Inlined a number of redundant, single-use functions into one coherent function.
<robru>   - Completed enough of the relative->absolute path transition that I was able to drop all calls to os.chdir() from the build job.
<robru> * various landings, landings, landings.
<robru> (done)
<Ursinha> citrain shiny staging on its way
<barry> doko: last chance!
<barry> does anybody have any questions or comments on folks status?
<doko> - gdb merge, SRU and bug triage
<doko> - trying to get GCC 5 built on all architectures ...
<doko> - preparing for python 2.7.9
<doko> - installed my laptop with the disk encrypted (an odyssee ...)
<doko> - needed a replacement disk for my server at home, raid5 working again
<doko> (done)
<barry> #topic AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<doko> ohh, and getting a lot annoyed about python-pip ...
<barry> doko: "getting"? :)
<doko> even more ...
<barry> does anybody have anything else today?
<barry> 3...
<barry> 2...
<barry> 1...
<barry> good, let's keep this short and sweet
<barry> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Nov 20 16:14:49 2014 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-11-20-16.00.moin.txt
<caribou> thanks barry
<jodh> thanks!
<barry> cheers!
<mvo> yay
<sil2100> THanks o/
 * didrocks waves
<dholbach> salut didrocks
<didrocks> Guten tag dholbach :)
<dholbach> are you here for the desktop team?
<didrocks> yeah
<didrocks> willcooke__ is sick
<didrocks> so I'm the spare will today :)
<cprofitt> hello all
<didrocks> hey cprofitt
<dholbach> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Nov 20 17:02:10 2014 UTC.  The chair is dholbach. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<Laney> goooooo team
<didrocks> Laney: \o/
<mhall119> o/
<dholbach> #chair cprofitt czajkowski mhall119 YokoZar pleia2
<meetingology> Current chairs: YokoZar cprofitt czajkowski dholbach mhall119 pleia2
<dholbach> #topic Catching up with the Desktop team
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Catching up with the Desktop team
<elfy> easily forgotten is elfy :(
<dholbach> didrocks, Laney: thanks for turning up! how are you doing? how's the desktop?
<dholbach> #chair elfy
<meetingology> Current chairs: YokoZar cprofitt czajkowski dholbach elfy mhall119 pleia2
<YokoZar> Welcome
<czajkowski> Aloha :)
<didrocks> dholbach: we're good! Wrapping up blueprints after UOS
<didrocks> got quite some nice sessions, especially the Q&A with the community
<dholbach> what kept you guys busy in the last time?
<didrocks> dholbach: I wasn't there the last time, so not sure when it was exactly, like a month or so?
<dholbach> hum? I'm not sure I understand - you mean when the CC met with the Desktop team the last time?
<dholbach> it could easily have been 5-6 months since we last met(?) - I can't quite remember
<didrocks> dholbach: right, I was on holidays I guess, so unsure when it was (don't want to go back in time too far)
<didrocks> ah ok :)
<dholbach> right :)
<Laney> Phone system settings, bugs, 14.10 release, GTK Mir backend, ...
<Laney> More recently gnome updates + merges too, normal stuff I think
<Laney> Some work on the unity 8 desktop stuff
<didrocks> yeah, part of the team is working on getting some bits of gnome 3.14 updated
<Laney> UDTC ;-)
<didrocks> (and gtk with their new theme system)
<dholbach> how is the unity8 desktop coming on?
<didrocks> of course, desktop developer story as Laney told :)
<dholbach> will the new gtk mean that we can update to the newest in gnome?
<mhall119> Laney: I know there's been work to more cleanly separate upstream Gnome from Unity's needs, so that Ubuntu GNOME for example doesn't have conflicts. How has that work been going, is it completed or almost there?
<didrocks> unity8: it's coming up nicely, if you saw recent posts, there is even some prototypes for multi-windows management with unity8
<mhall119> I saw that :)
<didrocks> we have a blueprint and some WIs for that image: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/desktop-1504-desktop-apps-on-mir
<mhall119> was that from this UOS?
<didrocks> the goal is to have all those apps running and working in the unity8 image by 15.04
<didrocks> we didn't really have a session at UOS as it's a JFDI
<mhall119> an ambitious goal
<YokoZar> In the past there was a bit of a thorny issue where our derived-from-gnome packages were still using the gnome-* package namespace (and you couldn't easily get a more gnomey-gnome from packages), leading to some upset community folks.  Has this migration been basically completely done now?
<didrocks> but basically we want people to be able to create touch apps and tests from this image
<didrocks> hence Qtcreator
<YokoZar> mhall119 basically beat me to that question
<didrocks> and having importants apps
<mhall119> YokoZar: type smaller bits :)
<didrocks> so GNOME - Unity separation
<didrocks> I doubts there will be more work on this until we switch to unity8 by default and dropp unity7 support
<didrocks> there has been a fair share of decoupling
<didrocks> to enable the ubuntu gnome team to update more on latest gnome version
<YokoZar> Is Unity8 happening next release?
<Laney> We'll be able to get to 3.14 I think
<didrocks> YokoZar: we all wish, but a more realistic goal is by next LTS
<mhall119> YokoZar: not default next release, no
<didrocks> we will propose it as an option first anyway
<didrocks> and then, when users will be convinced that unity 8 is better than unity 7
<didrocks> we will switch
<mhall119> didrocks: is the plan to keep Unity NEXT as a separate build, or will Unity 8 be an installable session on top of a regular install?
<mhall119> in 15.04
<didrocks> as Laney told, we are going to get Gnome 3.14 this cycle
<didrocks> which is the current Gnome stable release
<didrocks> mhall119: it's already available in a session on top of the regular one actually
<mhall119> current, but usn't 3.16 coming soon?
<didrocks> the separate build is just for people to try it more easily
<didrocks> mhall119: soon being next April
<YokoZar> didrocks: We do have 15.10 before 16.04 LTS as well.  Is that the time to drop unity7 so we can fully deal with this?  I'd hate to leave ubuntu-gnome stranded for another LTS
<mhall119> didrocks: good to know, thanks
<mhall119> didrocks: so, same as our next release :)
<Laney> Who says they are stranded?
<didrocks> mhall119: right :)
<YokoZar> Well, alternative is package separation work of course
<Laney> It would be extremely bad to fork every gnome package
<YokoZar> No argument there
<mhall119> do we have many gnome-* packages left that have Unity-specific changes which break GNOME?
<cprofitt> YokoZar: I agree I would not like to see Ubuntu Gnome left is a bad position through another LTS
<didrocks> they can do it, but it's a fair amount of work
<didrocks> mhall119: well, there is gtk for example, what prevented update to 3.14 last cycle is that they rewrote the theme engine for example
<didrocks> so the ubuntu theme is being redone identical with the new css rules as of now
<YokoZar> I'm just worried about a situation where the not-gnome gnome-* packages linger because it was easier to remove them after dropping unity-7 but then we never get around to dropping unity-7 till release after LTS and so the separation work doesn't get done
<didrocks> so, it's not only "unity", it's "ubuntu" as a whole
<mhall119> didrocks: so is it more a case of "newest upstream breaks Unity" and now "Unity patches break newest upstream"?
<mhall119> ok
<didrocks> mhall119: exactly
<didrocks> s/now/not/ I infer :)
<mhall119> yes
<dholbach> how are things going with the developer desktop? :)
<mhall119> so that answers my questions and concerns about that, how about you YokoZar?
<didrocks> we are starting to get a nice community and external contributors
<YokoZar> didrocks: I suspect adapting the Ubuntu theme to work with latest Gnome is work the ubuntu-gnome folks are happy to do, whereas poking around with unity-specific patches maybe less so ;)
<didrocks> YokoZar: hum, I doubt, they are using the upstream adwaita theme, not the ubuntu one
<didrocks> YokoZar: so, they are not really concerned about it
<YokoZar> ahh ok
<Laney> It's more things like adapting UIs where Unity wants them to be different from the GNOME HIG which is in the way of updating
<didrocks> yeah, so this cycle, we should have new ides supported for developers
<mhall119> "ubuntu one" == "humanity" right?
<didrocks> new environments as well
<Laney> Not really so much distro patches
<Laney> IMO
<didrocks> and not protection for people using pip/ruby on their systems :)
<didrocks> mhall119: well, we don't have headbars in our theme
<didrocks> and some applications have empty menus with headbars
<YokoZar> I have this fantasy of Ubuntu being in Gnome's good graces again
<YokoZar> mhall119: I'm happy, though we should check in next release.
<didrocks> so, it's broken in xfce, under unityâ¦
<YokoZar> (I kid ~ "good graces")
<mhall119> YokoZar: +1
<Laney> bleh
<Laney> It's like the fantasy of an "Ubuntu and Debian" relationship
<cprofitt> I would like to see that too YokoZar
<Laney> really it's many to many
<YokoZar> Exactly
<cprofitt> +1 Laney
<YokoZar> There is no Emperor of Gnome whose ring we can kiss :p
<czajkowski> lol
<mhall119> is there anythign the CC can to do assign the desktop team's work, either with Unity 8 or the Ubuntu<->GNOME relation?
<didrocks> dholbach: so, if you can read in the interleaved discussions, yeah, things are going great on the developer desktop :)
<mhall119> s/assign/assist/
 * mhall119 can't type today
<mhall119> (which is bad, because I'm coding today)
<didrocks> mhall119: maybe some call for testing/trying the Unity 8 image?
<didrocks> we know it can't be used on a daily bases
<didrocks> and it's a tablet ui for now
<didrocks> but we will be thrilled to have feedback, like on social media for instance
<mhall119> didrocks: we can help promote that if there's a coordinated plan to help people get started and report problems
<Laney> I saw mzanetti posted a video of some windowing support on G+
<didrocks> and I think the core apps guys will be delighted to have early feedbacks on their applications running on a desktop :)
<mhall119> didrocks: not a tablet UI for long, once mzanetti's patch lands
<didrocks> right!
<dholbach> very nice
<didrocks> mhall119: we can build some plan around it and use the community team as a proxy?
<mhall119> didrocks: community team and CC both can assist with getting the word out
<didrocks> to spread the world with the loco council :)
<didrocks> nice
<czajkowski> didrocks: good idea
 * mhall119 apologizes to everyone he just volunteered to do stuff
<czajkowski> I'm the LoCo council will like that
<didrocks> volounteering other people, that's always the way to go ;)
<mhall119> it's the Ubuntu way ;)
<dholbach> speaking of help - where do you feel the Desktop team would need most help right now?
<didrocks> if we can get some people will to contribute testing and updating the new GNOME in particular on #ubuntu-desktop, that would be awesome
<didrocks> who*
<didrocks> want*
<didrocks> ECANTTYPE tonight as well :)
<mhall119> didrocks: we just need some specifics about what to test, how to test it, and how to report results
<didrocks> I'm always personnaly welcoming feedback and patches on UDTC (the developer desktop)
<didrocks> we will make some call for help and contribution publically on this next week
<mhall119> a vague "test some things" isn't going to get us very far
 * elfy suggests that balloons would be the one to co-ordinate testing
<didrocks> mhall119: most of the coordination is done through #ubuntu-desktop
<mhall119> didrocks: better to gave documentation, if we can get it
<didrocks> so people jumping on IRC and telling they want to help, we can then redirect to what is needed at that point in time
<mhall119> you're only on IRC 22.5 hours a day, afterall
<didrocks> the thing is that between one week to the next one, it's not the same thing to test
<didrocks> also, we resumed using WI and blueprints
<didrocks> so, if people wants to help the desktop team, there is http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-v/canonical-desktop-team.html
<mhall119> I understand, but docs still work better and get more contributors, so if we can have them that would be great
<didrocks> here are some WI that are not assigned
<didrocks> they are free to grab and more specific
<dholbach> great... I'm done with questions - does anyone else have any more questions?
 * mhall119 has none
<cprofitt> I have no more.
<dholbach> thanks a lot didrocks and Laney!
<mhall119> thank you both
<elfy> thanks didrocks Laney
<dholbach> .
<didrocks> thanks everyone! :)
<dholbach> #topic Catching up with the DMB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Catching up with the DMB
<cprofitt> yes, thank you everyone.
<Laney> thanks, hi
<dholbach> welcome again Laney :)
<dholbach> anyone else from the DMB around? :)
<Laney> dunno, to find out you do this:
<Laney> !dmb-ping
<ubottu> bdrung, ScottK, Laney, micahg, xnox, bdmurray, stgraber: DMB ping
<xnox> Laney: hola
<xnox> dholbach: hi
<Laney> tada!
<mhall119> hello xnox, nice to see you're still around :)
<dholbach> wow, I didn't know that command :)
<xnox> mhall119: i beg your pardon, how dare you?! =) nah, all is cool.
<mhall119> :)
<bdmurray> hi
<dholbach> how are you? how are things with the DMB?
<Laney> Same ol'
<YokoZar> Heh
<Laney> We have meetings, we approve most people, impossible to get people to reply to email threads
<Laney> :P
<dholbach> ah yes, I remember we talked about the mail situation the last time
<mhall119> Laney: applicants or DMB members?
<dholbach> do you feel things have improved there?
<YokoZar> Is our rate of developer growth about the same as it's always been?
<Laney> members, no
<dholbach> or is it also "same ol'"?
<Laney> It's pretty slow now
<Laney> CI train removed one reason people used to have for applying I think
<Laney> but the new system won't be as backdoory so we may see it come back a bit
<Laney> ("CI airline")
<Laney> I estimate we have someone at 3 out of every 4 meetings
<dholbach> do you know if people who get their changes auto-landed apply for membership very often?
<Laney> I know that they don't do that through us
<Laney> at least I can't think of anyone like that
<dholbach> ok
<Laney> DMB has never been a popular route for membership anyway
<dholbach> how about the voting-by-email situation? does this go better than it used to?
<Laney> No
<Laney> We have three threads ongoing now, hard to get the board to reply
<czajkowski> :/
<Laney> I think we might have to start refusing to handle any application on email
<dholbach> maybe somebody should use the "dmb-ping" command on IRC more often :-)
<Laney> but our meeting times are crap for people not in the US or Europe
<dholbach> right, that makes sense
<Laney> The two email applicants are in Asia and Australasia
<Laney> so.
<czajkowski> Laney: could you review applicants in the meeting online and post them results or do you need the applicants there in person ?
<Laney> It's the interview aspect
<dholbach> but the meeting time slot could be used for that, no?
<czajkowski> or else make a once off special meeting when -meeting is free and everyone comes online early/late and reviews the applicatns ?
<Laney> Only if the applicant is there
<czajkowski> not saying it's needed every month but may deal with people not answering emails :)
<dholbach> but you could use the meeting time for sending the mail
<Laney> you'd think
<czajkowski> dholbach: +!
<dholbach> writing the mail
<dholbach> that should really be possible
<dholbach> :)
<Laney> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/devel-permissions/2014-November/thread.html
<Laney> Might not be talking to the right person. :)
<dholbach> I wasn't blaming you in the slightest
<Laney> I know, I'm just saying that I don't know what solutions I can offer
<dholbach> right
<czajkowski> Laney: perhaps try dholbach suggestio of mail during meeting and add it to the agenda and see if that helps?
<czajkowski> Laney: do you usually have enough board members on hand at a meeting ?
<Laney> Could try that
<Laney> here's 10 minutes of silence, go email
<dholbach> yes, that'd be nice
<Laney> We usually scrape 4 people
<czajkowski> Laney: so do you think you need more members on the board also ?
<czajkowski> Laney: try adn see and let us know :)
<czajkowski> please
<mhall119> or regional boards like we did for Ubuntu membership?
<czajkowski> not sure that would help the DMB given some areas are higher than others for developers
<mhall119> true, but there might be enough current members for a asian/oceana board
<dholbach> I know that it's not easy to make up your mind and that with the MC we had long email debates as well
<dholbach> but it's nice if everyone tries hard to keep the ball rolling
<YokoZar> Reasonable
<dholbach> and not keep the applicants waiting unnecesarily
<Laney> I know that everyone understands this
<Laney> Still somehow it never gets to the top
<dholbach> thanks a lot for your help, Laney
<mhall119> thanks Laney, hopefull the "send email during meeting time" will help
<YokoZar> Thank you Laney
<dholbach> does anyone have any other questions?
<elfy> not me
<Laney> I want to discuss/inform about you about something in private
<Laney> do you have a channel?
<czajkowski> Laney: yes let me dm
<dholbach> all rightie... anything else?
<dholbach> #topic Any other business?
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Any other business?
<czajkowski> I think we should at some point
<czajkowski> address the issues being brought up on community list
<czajkowski> should we have a dediated meeting to it ?
<mhall119> which one(s)?
<czajkowski> mhall119: the long threads going on right now re governance
<elfy> czajkowski: I'd say yes
<dholbach> I responded O:-)
<mhall119> ah, those, I'm not sure the discussions have progressed to the point where we can make any decisions yet, so a dedicated meeting in the near future might be best
<dholbach> yeah, might be a good idea
<dholbach> maybe let's give the discussion another week?
<czajkowski> mhall119: well I think people need to understand it's also ok to bring these discussions to us
<YokoZar> Agreed ~tabling, I gotta go soon
<elfy> czajkowski: yep
<czajkowski> blog posts and mailing lsits arent always the best way to engage
<mhall119> czajkowski: we (the CC) can also join hte discussion in the ML
<czajkowski> and many of the comments from people are leaving people alienated
<czajkowski> which isn;t good
<czajkowski> mhall119: some have already
<czajkowski> mhall119: but this is also a forum for discussion!
<mhall119> I know, I just wanted to restate that
<czajkowski> ok I propose we have an irc meeting next week
<czajkowski> instead of our weekly G+
<mhall119> same bat time, same bat channel?
<czajkowski> and that way the community can take part and also it's logged so people read it
<czajkowski> yes
<czajkowski> and we post it to the fridge
<mhall119> oh wait, that's Thanksgiving day in the USA
<dholbach> we just need to announce it
<czajkowski> so people can see and also know the date/time
<czajkowski> :/
<czajkowski> ok so December 4th ?as a large chunk of the CC are USA
<mhall119> do we have catch-ups scheduled for the 4th already?
<elfy> yes
<dholbach> (all right... I need to rush now - but you should all be irc meeting chairs, so you can end the meeting as well)
<dholbach> see you!
<czajkowski> mhall119: possibly but I think this topic is worth rescheduling don't you ?
<mhall119> thanks dholbach
<elfy> edubuntu and lubuntu
<mhall119> czajkowski: that's fine, I'm also okay to have this discussion +/- 1 hour from that meeting
<mhall119> but I know that might not work for others
<czajkowski> mhall119: much alter in EU then
<czajkowski> :)
<czajkowski> timezones eh
<elfy> :)
<mhall119> we should get rid of those
<czajkowski> elfy: can you contact and ask them to reschedule please?
 * mhall119 adds that to the CC agenda
<czajkowski> and then we can use the dec 4th meeting to discuss issues
<elfy> czajkowski: well I can mail them - I never get replies from the majority of people
<czajkowski> lets also see if we can get sabdfl to the meeting also
<mhall119> czajkowski: we'll be doing this on IRC right, not a hangout?
<pleia2> fwiw, thanksgiving I am around
<czajkowski> mhall119: aye
<mhall119> ok
<mhall119> pleia2: you shouldn't be :-P
<pleia2> I get caught up on my ubuntu work during work holidays :)
<pleia2> it's just MJ and me, not really a big holiday for us
<mhall119> more turkey to go around then
<czajkowski> right AOB folks ?
<elfy> not from me
<czajkowski> #action elfy contact boards and reschedule 4 Dec meeting
<meetingology> ACTION: elfy contact boards and reschedule 4 Dec meeting
<mhall119> none from me
<czajkowski> #action CC to have a meeting on 4Th December to discuss latest threads on Ubuntu Governance
<meetingology> ACTION: CC to have a meeting on 4Th December to discuss latest threads on Ubuntu Governance
<pleia2> thanks czajkowski
<czajkowski> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Nov 20 17:59:38 2014 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-11-20-17.02.moin.txt
<czajkowski> lovely jubbly
<pleia2> ok, off to next airplane now
<mhall119> have a safe flight
<mhall119> thanks everyone
<pleia2> thanks
<czajkowski> Happy Ubuntu Appreciate Day folks!
<czajkowski> Thank you to all for the workd you do!
#ubuntu-meeting 2015-11-16
<tyhicks> hello
<mdeslaur> \o
<tyhicks> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Nov 16 16:31:54 2015 UTC.  The chair is tyhicks. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<tyhicks> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<tyhicks> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Announcements
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Announcements
<tyhicks> Klas Mattsson (klas-mattsson) provided a debdiff for trusty for openafs (LP: #1513461)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1513461 in openafs (Ubuntu Wily) "OPENAFS-SA-2015-007 "Tattletale"" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1513461
<tyhicks> Many thanks for your assistance in keeping Ubuntu users secure! :)
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<tyhicks> mdeslaur: you're up
<mdeslaur> I'm on triage this week
<mdeslaur> I'm about to publish strongswan and libxml2 updates
<mdeslaur> and I have a couple of embargoed issues to work on
<mdeslaur> and that's about it from me, sbeattie?
<sbeattie> I'm in the happy place this week
<sbeattie> I'll have openjdk updates and some other java goop to publish this week
<sbeattie> I need to talk with people about getting an archive test build going for pie amd64
<sbeattie> I need to spend some time reviewing outstanding apparmor patches
<sbeattie> And the usual kernel triage rigamarole.
<sbeattie> That's pretty much it for me; tyhicks?
<tyhicks> I'm in the community role this week
<tyhicks> I have some bug triage followup from last week
<tyhicks> need to finish the mapplauncherd review and profile development
<tyhicks> have some followup to do regarding a proposed eCryptfs kernel feature
<tyhicks> AppArmor policy namespace management improvements
<tyhicks> AppArmor policy loads inside of a user namespace
<tyhicks> that's it for me
<tyhicks> jjohansen: you're up
<jjohansen> I am working on apparmor stacking and policy namespace improvements
<jjohansen> I also need to spend a bit of time prepping for tomorrows apparmor meeting
<jjohansen> I think that is it for me, sarnold you are up
<sarnold> i'm on bug triage this week
<sarnold> I'm reviewing some apparmor kernel patches and might get around to the parser and makefile patches this week, and I aim to start the .. uhh .. webserver in systemd MIR
<sarnold> that should be it for me, if chrisccoulson is around then it's chrisccoulson's turn, if not back to tyhicks :)
<chrisccoulson> I'm around :)
<chrisccoulson> I should be doing a thunderbird update this week (I thought that would be last week). I don't have any other planned updates
<chrisccoulson> Other than that, I'll be working through some Oxide reviews, as well as hopefully finishing off the camera implementation
<chrisccoulson> I also hope to find time to get firefox symbol uploads automated again
<chrisccoulson> that's me done
<tyhicks> thanks!
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
<tyhicks> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.
<tyhicks> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/k4dirstat.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/pam-pgsql.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/fwsnort.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/ppmd.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/libphp-adodb.html
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
<tyhicks> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
<tyhicks> mdeslaur, sbeattie, jjohansen, sarnold, ChrisCoulson: Thanks!
<tyhicks> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Nov 16 16:48:32 2015 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2015/ubuntu-meeting.2015-11-16-16.31.moin.txt
<jjohansen> thanks tyhicks
<sbeattie> thanks, tyhicks!
<sarnold> thanks tyhicks!
<mdeslaur> thanks tyhicks
<wxl> !lococouncil assemble
<wxl> !lococouncil | assemble
<ubottu> assemble: The LoCo Council is coolbhavi, PabloRubianes, nhaines, wxl, and lunapersa - they are here to help, just ask! :) You can send them an email at loco-council@lists.ubuntu.com
#ubuntu-meeting 2015-11-17
<rbasak> #startmeeting ubuntu-server-team
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Nov 17 16:02:13 2015 UTC.  The chair is rbasak. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:
<rbasak> Who's here?
<rbasak> #topic Review ACTION points from previous meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<hallyn> \o
<rbasak> rbasak look at https://code.launchpad.net/~psivaa/ubuntu-test-cases/lvm-grub-preseed-fix/+merge/258620 and https://code.launchpad.net/~om26er/ubuntu-test-cases/fix_minimal_image_size_test/+merge/235298
<rbasak> Sorry, I haven't done this yet. I'll carry it over.
<rbasak> #action rbasak look at https://code.launchpad.net/~psivaa/ubuntu-test-cases/lvm-grub-preseed-fix/+merge/258620 and https://code.launchpad.net/~om26er/ubuntu-test-cases/fix_minimal_image_size_test/+merge/235298
<meetingology> ACTION: rbasak look at https://code.launchpad.net/~psivaa/ubuntu-test-cases/lvm-grub-preseed-fix/+merge/258620 and https://code.launchpad.net/~om26er/ubuntu-test-cases/fix_minimal_image_size_test/+merge/235298
<rbasak> #topic Xenial Development
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Xenial Development
<rbasak> It's mainly merge and sync time at the moment.
<rbasak> I have a list of areas that need looking at. I'd like to assign some things to people.
<hallyn> for instance?
<rbasak> Let me list them.
<rbasak> strongswan
<rbasak> systemd-boot tagged bugs for server packages
<rbasak> DPDK (I think cpaelzer and smb are working on this)
<rbasak> etckeeper - we should drop the bzr delta now and resync with Debian, being careful to manage upgrade paths, and then stop worrying about this package.
<rbasak> I'm working on MySQL upstream.
<rbasak> NTP needs a merge and some bugs fixing
<arges> i got libvirt
<rbasak> freeipmi and logwatch need merges
<rbasak> I'd like to look at deprecating mail-stack-delivery post-Xenial.
<hallyn> etckeeper sounds scary.  though might be fun
<rbasak> "Big" merges I think need doing are dovecot, nut, amavisd-new and bacula.
<rbasak> That's my list.
<cpaelzer> rbasak, I can confirm working on DPDK
<rbasak> cpaelzer: how are you doing with nis? Do you want to take on one of the other merges as well?
<rbasak> The deadline for all of this is feature freeze, which is scheduled for 18 Feb.
<cpaelzer> rbasak, I havent found the time to do the nis fix for a proper transition on upgrade yet
<cpaelzer> I hope to get it somewhen in November to a state ready for review
<cpaelzer> rbasak, diving head on into dpdk I don't need an extra merge as of now
<rbasak> hallyn: do you want etckeeper then?
<hallyn> not right now.
<hallyn> if you keep a list somewhere where ppl can grab items that'd be useful, but not sure how
<rbasak> I know that nobody wants this stuff right now, but I'd like to have someone nominated for each thing with a non-immediate (Feb) deadline
<hallyn> blueprint :)
<rbasak> Yeah I should have a blueprint.
<hallyn> thta i can do - put me down
<rbasak> #action rbasak to create blueprint for Xenial feature work
<meetingology> ACTION: rbasak to create blueprint for Xenial feature work
<hallyn> (by feb :)
<rbasak> OK. Thanks! Do you want a sooner goal hallyn for reminder purposes?
<hallyn> yes
<rbasak> End of Nov for now?
<hallyn> yeah
<rbasak> Thank you.
<hallyn> (cause i' not around much indec)
<rbasak> cpaelzer: can I do the same for you for a merge please?
<rbasak> kickinz1: around? Can I give you a merge too please?
<cpaelzer> rbasak, End of Nov is what I want to track myself as of now for nis
<kickinz1> rbazak, yes
 * rbasak looks for something to give to kickinz1 
<hallyn> eh make it an action to find something :)
<smoser> o.
<rbasak> smoser: can I give you the systemd-boot issues maybe?
<smoser> link ?
<rbasak> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/?field.searchtext=&orderby=-importance&field.status%3Alist=NEW&field.status%3Alist=CONFIRMED&field.status%3Alist=TRIAGED&field.status%3Alist=INPROGRESS&field.status%3Alist=FIXCOMMITTED&field.status%3Alist=INCOMPLETE_WITH_RESPONSE&field.status%3Alist=INCOMPLETE_WITHOUT_RESPONSE&assignee_option=any&field.assignee=&field.bug_reporter=&field.bug_commenter=&field.subscri
<rbasak> ber=&field.structural_subscriber=ubuntu-server&field.component-empty-marker=1&field.tag=systemd-boot&field.tags_combinator=ANY&field.status_upstream-empty-marker=1&field.has_cve.used=&field.omit_dupes.used=&field.omit_dupes=on&field.affects_me.used=&field.has_no_package.used=&field.has_patch.used=&field.has_branches.used=&field.has_branches=on&field.has_no_branches.used=&field.has_no_branches=on&fie
<rbasak> ld.has_blueprints.used=&field.has_blueprints=on&field.has_no_blueprints.used=&field.has_no_blueprints=on&search=Search
<rbasak> Lovely.
<rbasak> I searched for tag=systemd-boot, package/series subscriber=ubuntu-server.
<rbasak> There are 10.
<smoser> http://tinyurl.com/nzecls5
<rbasak> Thanks
<smoser> i'm sorry i joined late.
<smoser> are you just asking me to triage ? or to commit to fixing .
<rbasak> I'd like you to drive those for Xenial please. Fix as appropriate anything you deem important.
<rbasak> If not important, feel free to triage to low importance and leave.
<hallyn> delegate :)
<rbasak> I'll find kickinz1 something after looking through the merge list later.
<rbasak> #action rbasak to find kickinz1 a merge to do
<meetingology> ACTION: rbasak to find kickinz1 a merge to do
<smoser> rbasak, ok.
<rbasak> smoser: thanks
<rbasak> Any comments for Xenial development in general before I move on?
<rbasak> I'll skip my Assigned bugwork section in the agenda. Right now I'd like to focus on features.
<rbasak> (since we're early cycle)
<rbasak> #topic Server & Cloud Bugs (caribou)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Server & Cloud Bugs (caribou)
<caribou> I'm good rbasak
<rbasak> OK thanks
<rbasak> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (matsubara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (matsubara)
<rbasak> matsubara isn't here, so let's move on.
<rbasak> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee, arges)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee, arges)
<smb> Not much new here (beside dpdk which isn't really kernel).
<smb> Do we have questions?
<rbasak> Thanks smb.
<rbasak> #topic Upcoming Call For Papers
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Upcoming Call For Papers
<rbasak> Anything new?
<rbasak> #topic Ubuntu Server Team Events
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Ubuntu Server Team Events
<rbasak> Any new events?
<rbasak> #topic Open Discussion
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Open Discussion
<rbasak> I'm out next week.
<rbasak> #topic Announce next meeting date, time and chair
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Announce next meeting date, time and chair
<rbasak> jgrimm: will you be OK to chair next week? You're next in the list.
<jgrimm> rbasak, ack
<rbasak> The next meeting will be Tue Nov 24 16:00 UTC 2015. jgrimm will chair.
<rbasak> Thanks all!
<rbasak> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Nov 17 16:23:38 2015 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2015/ubuntu-meeting.2015-11-17-16.02.moin.txt
<jgrimm> thanks rbasak
<caribou> thanks rbasak !
<cpaelzer> thanks, rbasak
 * Na3iL is away: AFK
#ubuntu-meeting 2015-11-19
<pitti> o/
<sil2100> \o
<robru>  /o/
<cyphermox> sup.
 * slangasek waves
<infinity> o/
<chiluk> o/
<tdaitx> o/
<infinity> Did mumble just explode for anyone else, or am I special?
<cyphermox> you're special
<slangasek> you are special!
<infinity> Yay me.
<barry> why is that an either-or?
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Nov 19 16:02:21 2015 UTC.  The chair is slangasek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Lightning round
<slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e barry doko bdmurray slangasek caribou infinity sil2100 robru cyphermox pitti tdaitx xnox)
<slangasek> cyphermox doko robru infinity caribou slangasek barry tdaitx pitti xnox sil2100 bdmurray
<cyphermox> winnage!
<cyphermox>  - more ubiquity prototyping for kernel signature enforcing.
<cyphermox>  - discussed prototype with design team for feedback
<cyphermox>  - ipmitool SRUs for bug LP: #1509896 (vivid, wily)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1509896 in ipmitool (Ubuntu Wily) "IPMI USB SCSI endpoint discovery can fail on OpenPower machines" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1509896
<cyphermox>  - grub2 ofdisk/sas disk detection fix for bug LP: #1517586
<cyphermox>    - xenial and SRUs.
<cyphermox>  - continuing on netcfg work (bug LP: #1452202)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1517586 in grub2 (Ubuntu) "can't boot to disk from netboot on power8" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1517586
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1452202 in netcfg (Ubuntu) "ubuntu preseed install fails to set a hostname" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1452202
<cyphermox> - also back on that lvm cyclic dependency issue.
<cyphermox>  - fixed update bug in sbuild-launchpad-chroot.
<cyphermox> â â
<pitti> is that a checkmate?
<cyphermox> ^ obligatory end transmission UTF characters.
<infinity> pitti: No, it's romance.
<infinity> Forbidden love.
<bdmurray> cyphermox: is the lvm issue that upgrade bug?
<cyphermox> bdmurray: yes!
 * sil2100 starts browsing the UTF character table
<pitti> king and castle could both beat each other, veery romantic :)
<robru> no doko?
<infinity> He's probably too busy abusing xnox on mumble.
<xnox> he was trolling my uploads in private message a minute ago...
<doko> - addressing binutils regressions on s390x and ppc64el
<doko> - ISL 0.15 transition (ongoing, involving gcc backports, gcc-* uploads)
<doko> - review and upload openjdk-6 and openjdk-7 packages
<doko> - merges
<doko> (done)
<robru> lp:cupstream2distro
<robru> - Force xenial in xenial+vivid to main archive.
<robru> - Total overhaul of the way train monitors and reports silo statuses
<robru> - Permanently disable jenkins CLI due to security vulnerability.
<robru> lp:bileto
<robru> - minor display tweaks to match new status format
<robru> other
<robru> - experiments with autopkgtests in silos and enabling britney but nothing conclusive yet
<robru> (done)
<infinity> Brain melty sort of week, with vague updates to match:
<infinity> - s390x stuff
<infinity> - kernely things
<infinity> - argued with glibc a bit
<infinity> - AA misc
<infinity> - SRU whatsits
<infinity> (done)
<caribou> Bugfix :
<caribou> - Precise SAN/LVM boot hang
<caribou>   LP: #1506550 - quassel sound bug
<caribou>   LP: #1496317 - kdump OOM killer failure
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1506550 in quassel (Ubuntu) "quassel can't play audio notifications in wily" [Low,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1506550
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1496317 in kexec-tools (Ubuntu) "kexec fails with OOM killer with the current crashkernel=128 value" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1496317
<caribou> Sosreport autopkgtests & packaging
<caribou> (done)
<slangasek>  * merges
<slangasek>  * s390x bootstrapping
<slangasek>  * worked through bug in udevd SIGBUSing on the phones (bug #1512323)
<slangasek>  * worked around a binutils hang that was causing util-linux to FTBFS on ppc64el (bug #1516444)
<slangasek>  * secureboot installer design discussions
<ubottu> bug 1512323 in android (Ubuntu) "devices on devel-proposed/ubuntu do not boot with systemd 227-2ubuntu1" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1512323
<ubottu> bug 1516444 in binutils (Ubuntu) "ld hangs indefinitely statically linking binutils on ppc64el" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1516444
<slangasek> (done)
<barry> debuntu: fades 4-1 (review, sponsor); LP: #1516688 (submitted upstream, have yet to hear back from maintainers); LP: #1440375 (mp submitted); pycurl 7.19.5.3-1 and 7.19.5.3-1ubuntu1; python-webob 1.5.1-1
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1516688 in apt-xapian-index (Ubuntu) "Port to Python 3" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1516688
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1440375 in oneconf (Ubuntu) "oneconf-common should use python3 by default" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1440375
<barry> si: LP: #1386302; LP: #1380678 (for si 3.1)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1386302 in Ubuntu system image "Provide ability to specify a target system image revision" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1386302
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1380678 in Ubuntu system image "Remove deprecated D-Bus method .Info()" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1380678
<barry> various reviews of various system-image server, ubuntu-release-upgrader branches; other python help here and there
<barry> ââ±
<tdaitx> Current/Past
<tdaitx>  - IcedTea 6b37 1.13.9 and 7u91 2.6.3 released on Friday (2015-11-13); couldn't get a Xenial LXC running, reverted to schroot; packaged both on my PPA; thanks doko for reviewing them =)
<tdaitx>  - Provided OpenJDK 7u91 2.6.3 packages for the security team (new update for Wily and backports for Vivid, Trusty, and Precise)
<tdaitx>  - Provided Wily backport for libcommons-collections3-apache to security team (LP: #1514985)
<tdaitx>  - Looking into arm+powerpc build failures in OpenJDK 8 & 9
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1514985 in libcommons-collections4-java (Ubuntu) "Arbitrary remote code execution with InvokerTransformer" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1514985
<tdaitx> Next steps
<tdaitx>  - provide OpenJDK 6b37 1.13.9 packages for the security team
<tdaitx>  - continue working on TCK packaging and charms
<tdaitx>  - work on joda-time and freeipmi merges, then move to squid3
<tdaitx>  - verify OpenJDK 6 TLS patch (LP: #1482924)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1482924 in openjdk-7 (Ubuntu) "Regressions due to USN-2696-1" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1482924
<tdaitx> Waiting/On hold
<tdaitx>  - waiting OCA to submit webrevs for 7093640 backport (set TLS 1.1 as default for JDK 6 and TLS 1.2 as default for JDK 7); not blocking anything for now, just waiting
<tdaitx> (done)
<pitti> == autopkgtest ==
<pitti>  - Detect temporary DNS failures and auto-retry on those
<pitti>  - Counteract livecd-rootfs hack from LP #1510345 harder to unbreak local QEMU images
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1510345 in cloud-init (Ubuntu Xenial) "[SRU] Cloud Images do not bring up networking w/ certain virtual NICs due to device naming rules" [Undecided,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1510345
<pitti>  - Hotfix regression from cloud-init change (#1177432) that caused the wrong source versions to be downloaded (#1517426)
<pitti>  - Some smaller bug fixes
<pitti>  - Create https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ProposedMigration/LocalSetup and scripts to initialize britney, mostly for robru's train integration
<pitti>  - about a full day's worth of autopkgtest infrastructure maintenance
<pitti>  - In progress: Integrate http://autopkgtest.ubuntu.com/running.html prototype into debci, make it more useful and robust
<pitti> == systemd ==
<pitti>  - Fix autopkgtest failures on ppc64el and in LXC (armhf), file console-setup bug (#1516591)
<pitti>  - Fix race condition in resolvconf integration
<pitti>  - Greatly improve networkd tests; plan: land them upstream and running them on every pull request in semaphore
<pitti>  - Fix build on arm, forward slangasek's siphash alignment patch upstream and complete it (#1512323)
<pitti>  - investigate various regressions in upstream master, QA the 228 release, package it
<pitti>  - Improve some of our autopkgtest cases
<pitti> == misc ==
<pitti>  - meeting about test machines for ubiquity/upgrade tests (aiming at nested QEMU in Scalingstack)
<pitti>  - make some experiments for the above; works good enough for autopkgtests, but ubiquity ISO tests are currently failing in Scalingstack (works fine locally)
<pitti> EOT
<cyphermox> pitti: ubiquity tests, yay
<xnox> * back from vacation
<xnox> * configured irc, ssh, vpn, etc.
<xnox> * uploaded a few merges / sync
<xnox> * replied to a bunch of emails
<xnox> AbEnd
<sil2100> - Landing team work, silo coordination, preparing landing e-mails
<sil2100> - RTM Status meetings
<sil2100> - OTA-8: * Preparing manual re-spins in the rc channel, prepping snapshots, tagging images * Preparing release notes and commitlogs * Emergency langpack re-spin madness a day before release
<sil2100> - system-image: * Deploying new image tag functionality, final live testing * Investigating bugs in delta handling * Some additional work on the testability branch
<sil2100> - +1-maintenance: * Preparing sync request for jansson
<sil2100> - Modifying snapshotting script to consider changes in the main archive (for OTA hotfixes)
<sil2100> - Preparing miniature script for safe image copies during touch image promotion
<sil2100> - Started work on modifying the auto-phasing scripts
<sil2100> - Help in resolving packaging issues for trust-store and platform-api
<sil2100> - Preliminary packaging review of the new gmenuharness package
<sil2100> - Prepare for re-try on core-dev
<sil2100> â
<sil2100> (the scissors mark the end, just so you know)
<bdmurray> research into quantity of crashes from the stable channel before and after apport change
<bdmurray> updated /tested apport on production retracers
<bdmurray> uploaded backport of xenial gdb to daisy pluckers PPA
<bdmurray> remove a systemd SAS from a bucket to see if it will retrace better w/ new apport version                                                                   tested retracing of systemd crashes
<bdmurray> submitted RT to have gdb updated on the retracers
<bdmurray> worked with thomi regarding a xorg retrace failure
<bdmurray> reported apport bug regarding using crash's version of gdb
<bdmurray> SRU verification of whoopsie bug LP: #1382233
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1382233 in whoopsie (Ubuntu Wily) "whoopsie does not upload UnreportableReason field in crash reports" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1382233
<bdmurray> investigated martin's idea of using has_useful_stacktrace() from apport
<bdmurray> wrote a test for and fixed ubuntu-release-upgrader bug LP: #1511783
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1511783 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu) "release upgrader can create a too minimal sources.list" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1511783
<bdmurray> uploaded ubuntu-release-upgrader fixing LP: #1463680 and #1511783
<bdmurray> investigation into merge-o-matic bug LP: #1202142
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1463680 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu) "mirrors only added to mirrors.cfg, never removed" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1463680
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1202142 in Merge-o-Matic "Blind to new development release -proposed pocket" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1202142
<bdmurray> reviewed arges's sru-review merge proposal
<bdmurray> â done
<slangasek> great!
<slangasek> any questions?
<pitti> OOI, what's the status of s390?
<pitti> I thought infinity was rather close to debootstrapability?
<infinity> Basically pending the hardware setup being complete for launchpaddification.
<infinity> It's debootstrappable, plus lots of other misc stuff built.
<slangasek> we have a minbase debootstrappable stage0 archive.  infinity, how's stage1 looking?
<infinity> stage1 will be building itself today.
<slangasek> excellent
<infinity> That's my whole day.
<pitti> that sounds like great progress
<cyphermox> slangasek: looks like we've filled the s390x position?
<pitti> cyphermox: it's spelt "s390xnox"
<slangasek> on the hardware setup side there was another delay this week, which IS and our unofficial in-house zSeries experts are now working to resolve but I have no eta
<cyphermox> pitti: jes
<slangasek> cyphermox: yes
<cyphermox> xnox: that's a good point, you should /nick ;)
<xnox> haha
<caribou> shouldn't it be Znox ?
<pitti> thanks for the heads-up
<slangasek> wouldn't s390x-no-x reduce to s390?  We don't support that
<cyphermox> well, are we even planning to ever run X on it?
<xnox> Mir all the way.
<infinity> cyphermox: Runs X fine.
<infinity> Clients, that is. ;)
<cyphermox> infinity: modulo no screen?
<infinity> Not so much the server bit.  Cause, yeah.
<infinity> Well, I suppose server via VNC and the like.
<cyphermox> yeah
<sil2100> cyphermox: will you mind if I pick up the network-manager-pptp merge?
<cyphermox> sil2100: knock yourself out :)
<sil2100> cyphermox: \o/
<cyphermox> might even be a sync
<pitti> oh, speaking of NM: any plans ot update to the latest stable microrelease? that fixes that weird "too small wifi MTU" bug which plagued us at the sprint
<pitti> (and I also see that here)
<tdaitx> s390 display is probably a punch card, refresh rate about 0.1 Hz
<pitti> (NM> IOW, debian merge)
<infinity> tdaitx: Don't be silly.  It's vacuum bulbs.  The punch card is the mouse.
<cyphermox> pitti: eventually, it's not my top priority.
<infinity> Also, it occasionally makes satisfyinf sci-fi bloops and bleeps that don't logically map to any function of the system.
<cyphermox> infinity: blinkenlights?
<infinity> cyphermox: In response to gerfingerpoken, yes.
<slangasek> but does it have a /dev/theramin
<cyphermox> ye[
<pitti> the bleeps, the sweeps, and the creeps?
<infinity> Ahh, we're such professionals.
<slangasek> so then!
<slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<slangasek> anything else?
<infinity> *shrug*
<slangasek> next week is Thanksgivin
<slangasek> g
<infinity> That was last month.
<infinity> Heathen.
<tdaitx> welcome (back?) xnox!
<slangasek> so US folks will be off
<xnox> tdaitx, si.
<slangasek> shall I leave the meeting on the calendar for everyone else?
<slangasek> (volunteer to chair?)
<sil2100> Now that xnox is back in the team, I need to think of a way to bribe him as well
<infinity> I have no interest in a meeting with half the team.
<cyphermox> sil2100: feel free to take any of the other network-manager-$vpn packages for merging/sync too, if you want
<sil2100> For the nearest DMB meeting
<pitti> slangasek: sure
<infinity> Unless someone else thinks it's super helpful.
<pitti> whom do you trust your mighty "echo $(shuf)" baton?
<sil2100> cyphermox: sure, will look if it'll end up as a merge or sync, jansson ended up as a sync so yay
<infinity> pitti: I feel like you just volunteered.
<slangasek> infinity: a whole 2/3 actually!
<tdaitx> I will be out between Nov 26 and Dec 01
<infinity> slangasek: Minus tdaitx. :P
<slangasek> #agreed pitti to chair team meeting next week
<infinity> Oh, I will be out "some days" the week after Thanksgiving as well, but the precise amount of outness is still in dispute.
<cyphermox> oh, winter tires on nov 26
<cyphermox> but no bloodletting, and not during work hours ;P
<infinity> Hah.
<tdaitx> pitti, good luck trying to control this mob =)
<doko> can we organize a some bits of merges, with the foundations team as the owner?
<pitti> tdaitx: I've known this bunch for years, no way
<tdaitx> pitti, shuffle them hard
<infinity> pitti: We're perfect angels.  *bat lashes*
<slangasek> doko: what exactly do you have in mind?
<slangasek> most of the oldest merges are installer-related... which is typical
<infinity> doko: Specific ones that concern you, or just knocking off old/forgotten merges in general?
<doko> slangasek, looking at oldish merges where the uploader isn't active, for whatever reason
<cyphermox> which I'll get to.
 * sil2100 will working on merges now as well, since his OTA-8 is out of the way
<doko> no, not specific ones, just thinking that we should actively address these (and I know I have lots of outstanding merges too)
<slangasek> doko: right; the oldest [foundations-bugs] ones on https://merges.ubuntu.com/main.html are installer, which are on cyphermox's todo list.  afterwards there's lsb which we saved for xnox
<infinity> Looks like most of the oldest have familiar and active names attached to them but, yeah, we should hit some of those.
<infinity> That grub1 merge scares me a bit.
<slangasek> nah skip grub1
<cyphermox> grub legacy is around for the fool who will try it... otherwise I'll be that fool after installer bits.
<slangasek> it never needs to be merged again, it just needs to be fully removed
<cyphermox> woops ;)
<xnox> infinity, last time i spoke with cjwatson - i think it's time to force upgrade to grub2 and see what happens.
<slangasek> exactly
<xnox> or not do anything, and simply drop grub1 package and wait.
<cyphermox> yes
<slangasek> there's no longer a xen-pv use case for grub1
<infinity> I'm TIL on a few things I don't remember Ting, I'll hit some of those next week after s390x stage1 is in a happy place.
<xnox> amazon ec2 uses a fork too, no? (grub-something-rather)
<slangasek> does anyone here have any merges they're TIL on that they specifically want to offer up to the team?
<slangasek> looks like open-isci is up for grabs from pitti
<pitti> lvm2 too
<infinity> As a general rule, if I'm TIL because of a 1-line (or, rather, trivial) bugfix, I don't mind it being stolen.
<pitti> (I'm happy to trade, of course)
<infinity> If I'm TIL because half the changelog is me, I'd prefer to keep it.
<doko> well, I'm not eager on all my merges ...  and still haven't even looked at universe
<slangasek> infinity: knowing it's a 1-line fix requires looking more deeply than at merges.u.c :)
<doko> and one more thing is to address the ruby defaults change, and then following up on that (so maybe pitti could do that, or server team, kirkland, and rbasak?)
<cyphermox> NM is free to merge for anyone who dares :)
<pitti> we have a package "nosexcover"..
<slangasek> infinity: maybe you're not attached to datefudge, as an example?  You might be more partial to walnut fudge
<infinity> slangasek: I don't even remember Ting datefudge L.
<slangasek>   * Use DEB_HOST_GNU_TYPE for cross-builds, not DEB_HOST_ARCH.
<infinity> Oh, cross.  Bah.
<infinity> That can't be the only change, though.  It's 3 ubuntu revisions deep.
<xnox> 0day nmu it + sync
<infinity> Yeah, someone should sort that delta with Debian, probably.
<pitti> doko: ah, I suppose we want to follow suit with ruby 2.2, so yes, I can merge that
<infinity>   * Cleanup makefiles a bit and add support for cross-compiling.
<infinity> And it's possible Debian's got the bits.
<doko> seriously, how many people are now looking at datefudge? ...
<infinity> ALL OF US.
<infinity> Perhaps we should end the meeting. :P
<slangasek> :-)
<barry> i was hoping to make some datefudge for thanksgiving
<slangasek> anyway, what's a realistic target for merges?
<slangasek> can we get everything > 365 days that's in main and foundations, off the list by EOY?
<xnox> 350 main outstanding -> 1y?
<infinity> slangasek: Everything but d-i, perhaps.
<xnox> let's not go too hard on di et.al.
<slangasek> if cyphermox is going to merge d-i, that ought to happen sooner rather than later this cycle
<cyphermox> well, I'll certainly *start* on a few of them
<infinity> Yeah, he and I have talked about it.  We'd like to, but I'm also not holding my breath.
<xnox> there was inprogress d-i merge at some point in the past, no?
<infinity> xnox: Not really, no.
<cyphermox> when we say d-i we mean all the d-i components but d-i itself
<infinity> xnox: It stalled when Colin insisted he wanted to keep all the bzr history in a bzr->git conversion + merge.
<infinity> cyphermox: No, I mean d-i. ;)
<infinity> cyphermox: All the components should absolutely be merged.
<slangasek> did that bzr->git conversion get done?
<cyphermox> infinity: agreed
<infinity> slangasek: Nein.  And unless Colin's going to volunteer to do the work, I think I'm going to give up on caring about history soon and just do a shallow merge (which is actually close to trivial) and reset in a fresh git tree.
<slangasek> ugh
<slangasek> those who do not save their history are doomed to something something
<slangasek> but ok
<infinity> slangasek: Doomed to not read 400 nearly identical commits?
<slangasek> infinity: doomed to not be able to find the rationale of the original commit
<infinity> I have no intention of deleting the bzr branches. :P
<infinity> But we'll see.
<cyphermox> it just needs someone who understands repo surgery
<slangasek> oh I assumed the launchpad team would vaporize those from orbit
<infinity> I think Colin still wants to DTRT, and he's much more skilled at doing insane conversions.
<slangasek> ok
<slangasek> enough of this
<slangasek> shall we end? :)
<pitti> +1
<infinity> Ja.
<pitti> thanks everyone!
<slangasek> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Nov 19 16:42:59 2015 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2015/ubuntu-meeting.2015-11-19-16.02.moin.txt
<slangasek> thanks, all!
<caribou> thanks!
<cyphermox> thanks
<barry> thanks!
#ubuntu-meeting 2015-11-21
<Acerio> I signed up for the Ubuntu Hardened team via LaunchPad, about how long until the request is reviewed? And what are the odds of getting accepted?
<Acerio> (I sent that in the wrong channel! Whoops)
#ubuntu-meeting 2016-11-21
<sil2100> o/
<rbasak> o/
<rbasak> Who else is here?
<cyphermox> yep
<philroche> Phil Roche (Canonical CPC team) also here on behalf of Odd_Bloke to answer any questions you might have about his proposal to include the gce-compute-image-packages package in the ubuntu-cloud packageset.
<rbasak> philroche: I don't see that request. Do you have a link please?
<rbasak> Oh, sorry, I got it.
<rbasak> We still need one more for quorum.
<sil2100> It was on the mailing list
<rbasak> micahg: o/
<cyphermox> we don't usually need a full meeting to add a package to a packageset though, do we?
<rbasak> micahg: available for this meeting? Then we have quorum.
<sil2100> cyphermox: no, one member to agree is enough IIRC
<rbasak> cyphermox: no, we only need quorum for general applications. A packageset addition needs only one +1.
<rbasak> But we can assign an action (without quorum) if that'll help get it done.
<micahg> o
<micahg> o/
<rbasak> #startmeeting DMB
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Nov 21 15:03:59 2016 UTC.  The chair is rbasak. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | DMB Meeting | Current topic:
<rbasak> #topic Review of previous action items
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | DMB Meeting | Current topic: Review of previous action items
<rbasak> sil2100 to deal with the juju packageset creation
<rbasak> sil2100 sil2100 to update the lubuntu packageset according to the current seed
<rbasak> sil2100: how's that going?
<sil2100> Not finished yet, sorry about that - I added new lubuntu packages to the packageset, but eh, still didn't clear up the old ones
<sil2100> Was doing that semi-manually since the script wasn't reliable
<rbasak> Yeah I've resorted to doing that too :-/
<rbasak> sil2100: what about juju packageset? Or did that get deferred because we have no uploaders?
<sil2100> Promise to resolve this this week
<sil2100> rbasak: there are no uploaders right now so it's more of a thing 'for the future'
<rbasak> #action sil2100 to update the lubuntu packageset according to the current seed (carried over)
<meetingology> ACTION: sil2100 to update the lubuntu packageset according to the current seed (carried over)
<sil2100> I wanted to do that but then learned that the TB needs to do that
<rbasak> sil2100: OK, do you still want an action for that or shall we drop it?
<sil2100> Let's drop it
<rbasak> OK
<sil2100> We can really take care of it when it's needed, I don't want to bother the TB without much merit from that
<rbasak> #done sil2100 to deal with the juju packageset creation
<rbasak> #topic MOTU Applications
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | DMB Meeting | Current topic: MOTU Applications
<rbasak> #subtopic MattiaRizzolo (mapreri) - application (for Nov 21th)
<rbasak> mapreri: hello! Please could you start by introducing yourself?
<mapreri> o/
 * josvaz__ also here for the same reason as philroche
<mapreri> I've been contributing to the community (loco team ubuntu-it mostly) since 5 years or so, 3 years ago I started doing some dev stuff like merges, etc.  Then I later shifted a bit on the Debian side of the equation, were I became DD last year.
<mapreri> This is the tl;dr story of me, guess it's a bit longer on the wiki, but I'm happy to provide more.
<rbasak> Thanks!
<rbasak> Does anyone have questions for mapreri?
<rbasak> Well, I have some :)
<mapreri> shot them :)
<rbasak> What are your specific reasons for applying for MOTU?
<mapreri> First, even if this is not true and I know it isn't, I feel a bit limited in what I can do.  I know that since I became DM (and then DD) I started doing a lot more just because I didn't even to bother sponsors anymore.  Practical examples includes carrying over library transitions in ubuntu; In the past year I started (or collaborated) several of them in Debian, but for the ubuntu side I just prodded my usual sponsors with "please do the
<mapreri> needed rebuild of these", which is lame.  And then I'd like to help a bit with sponsorship stuff; it's working atm, but it's pretty clear that it could use another hand.
<mapreri> I also have an interested in the same packages I maintain in Debian, but given that I actually care about more than just my garden I figured I could do more.
<mapreri> s/interested/interest/
 * LocutusOfBorg will be happy to stop signing and uploading is requests :p
<rbasak> OK, thanks.
<sil2100> mapreri: are you also going throught the sponsoring queue to find things that need some work?
<mapreri> (and, incidentally, I'd like to also apply for PPU for a couple of packages I have in main in ubuntu, btw)
<mapreri> sil2100: from time to time I look at http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/sponsoring/index.html to see how things are (and they are quite good atm, tbh), but no, I'm not reviewing stuff atm, nor actively looking at it.
<sil2100> Like, doing reviews so that eventual sponsors have it easier, prepare debdiffs etc.
<sil2100> Ok
<rbasak> Next question from me: what and how do you check if an upload is appropriate for Ubuntu with respect to our development cycle?
<mapreri> like, if that given upload is ok considering the moment we're in the given cycle?  (i.e. freezes, etc?)
<rbasak> Right, that's my question.
<mapreri> if it's that, basically everything's good untile the Import Freeze, after that changes should be pondered according to which phase the development cycle is
<rbasak> Can you give me an example of a (made up if needed) change that isn't OK to upload at a particular time?
<mapreri> starting a openssl transitions one month before the freeze counts as a thing not to do?  /me grumbles
<rbasak> In Ubuntu specifically. What I'm looking for is that you're aware of the Ubuntu development cycle specifically, and that you know what not to upload when.
<mapreri> otherwise, umh, for example after the feature freeze a new major version of a software which changes all of its interface is not good.
<rbasak> Do you know where you can find the current freeze dates for Zesty?
<mapreri> I have scribus in universe.  If it happens they release the new 1.5.x series, that's going to change all the interface and invalidate old file types, that's something I'd put after the FF
<mapreri> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ZestyZapus/DraftReleaseSchedule ?
<mapreri> s/I'd put/I wouldn't put/ meh
<rbasak> Great, thanks.
<rbasak> I hadn't noticed it was still in draft!
<mapreri> that was a hell of a typo
<rbasak> I thought it probably was. I was waiting for the correction :-)
<sil2100> mapreri: ok, one question from me, a rather easy one: when you get some packages sponsored, do you make sure the new package migrates to the release pocket correctly?
<sil2100> mapreri: if yes, where do you go to check if a package gets stuck in -proposed?
<cyphermox> it's not a typo, I, slangasek and infinity have yet to go through it one last time and make it not draft
<mapreri> yes
<rbasak> cyphermox: the "s/I'd put/I wouldn't put/ meh" I mean :)
<mapreri> sil2100: http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/proposed-migration/update_excuses.html + _output.txt (which I'm perfectly able to read)
<sil2100> Excellent
<cyphermox> yeah, I figured after :)
<rbasak> Any more questions for mapreri?
<rbasak> micahg: ?
<sil2100> Not from me, I'm all good
<mapreri> JOOI, do you know if anybody though to have the britney output more integreted into LP?
<mapreri> thought*
<rbasak> I'm not aware of any plans for this.
<mapreri> oh, well..  guess it's fine enough as it is already (just boring to load multi-MB web page..)
<sil2100> I guess micahg has no questions
<rbasak> I think micahg had to step away briefly, and we need him for a quorate vote as there are only four members here today, including him.
<mapreri> I'm not going anywhere, you can move to another candidate and ask me more questions later if you want :)
<rbasak> Let's go ahead with the vote. micahg can provide his opinion later anyway.
<rbasak> #vote Grant mapreri MOTU
<meetingology> Please vote on: Grant mapreri MOTU
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<rbasak> sil2100, cyphermox: ^
<sil2100> o/
<sil2100> +1 (upload history says it all)
<meetingology> +1 (upload history says it all) received from sil2100
<sil2100> The world could always use more MOTUs
<mapreri> :)
<cyphermox> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from cyphermox
<micahg> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from micahg
<rbasak> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from rbasak
<rbasak> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Grant mapreri MOTU
<meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<mapreri> \o/\o/
<mapreri> Thank you all! :)
<rbasak> mapreri: congratulations, and thank you for helping Ubuntu out!
<sil2100> mapreri: congrats!
<rbasak> Who wants to take the actions to add mapreri?
<mapreri> Question: if I wanted to ask for PPU for a couple of packages in main, shall I just email the team?
<rbasak> Technically PPU additions require quorum (four +1s). But we can try to do that on the ML if you want unless in response someone wants to take it to IRC perhaps?
<mapreri> (those would be pbuilder and libreoffice-dictionaries, btw)
<rbasak> Or shall we just vote on that now?
<rbasak> (given that we've all just reviewed all your work)
<mapreri> (yeah, figured it would be a kinda good moment, even if off agenda (sorry!))
<rbasak> mapreri: GunnarHj already uploads libreoffice-dictionaries. Are you in touch with him?
<mapreri> rbasak: we collaborated last year yes - e.g. he sent some changes to debian, I included them and then he re-uploaded those to debian, given that we couldn't sync the package just yet
<mapreri> the second debian is an ubuntu..
<rbasak> OK, let's vote on that then.
<rbasak> #vote Grant mapreri PPU to pbuilder and libreoffice-dictionaries
<meetingology> Please vote on: Grant mapreri PPU to pbuilder and libreoffice-dictionaries
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<cyphermox> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from cyphermox
<rbasak> micahg, sil2100: ^
<micahg> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from micahg
<rbasak> Also, I'm still looking for a volunteer to make changes/announcements etc.
<sil2100> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from sil2100
<rbasak> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from rbasak
<rbasak> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Grant mapreri PPU to pbuilder and libreoffice-dictionaries
<meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<mapreri> \o/
<mapreri> Thank you all again! :)
<rbasak> I guess I'm doing it then!
<micahg> added to MOTU, TB needs to add PPI
<micahg> PPU
<rbasak> Ah, thanks micahg!
<rbasak> Do you mind sorting those?
<rbasak> (and the announcement)
<sil2100> You're welcome!
<micahg> been having a little trouble with email I'm trying to resolve
<rbasak> OK, I'll sort
<rbasak> #action rbasak to announce mapreri's MOTU and PPU status
<rbasak> #action rbasak to get mapreri's PPU additions done by the TB
<meetingology> ACTION: rbasak to announce mapreri's MOTU and PPU status
<meetingology> ACTION: rbasak to get mapreri's PPU additions done by the TB
<sil2100> micahg: thanks for handling those o/
* rbasak changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Core Developer Applications
<rbasak> #subtopic Gianfranco Costamagna (costamagnagianfranco)
<rbasak> LocutusOfBorg: hello!
<LocutusOfBorg> hello :)
<rbasak> LocutusOfBorg: shall I jump straight to questions? What are your thoughts on the "Areas of Improvement" type comments from the endorsers of your application?
<LocutusOfBorg> I don't have any real answer, I think giings is right
<LocutusOfBorg> FWIW I try to find the best approach following each cases, and try to keep transitions in sync with Debian
<LocutusOfBorg> and I try to avoid breaking the freeze whenever possible :)
<rbasak> OK
<rbasak> What about pitti's comment on dropping deltas?
<LocutusOfBorg> but sometimes I think breaking it is the right thing to do
<rbasak> (well, eliminating rather than dropping I guess)
<LocutusOfBorg> I think this happened only once, and I still didn't get why and how my workflow failed
<LocutusOfBorg> it didn't happen again, so I couldn't debug it further
<LocutusOfBorg> considering I uploaded ~1k packages or more, I didn't consider it a real issue
<rbasak> To be clear, which question are you answering there?
<LocutusOfBorg> http://people.ubuntuwire.org/~stefanor/ubuntu-activity/
<LocutusOfBorg> it happened once that during a merge I dropped an ubuntu delta that was still needed
<rbasak> Ah, I see.
<LocutusOfBorg> when I got mail I readded it quickly
<LocutusOfBorg> not sure if MoM failed, or I failed, or both of us :p
<rbasak> As an aside, if MoM failed then that's still the uploader's responsibility to check it, IMHO.
<LocutusOfBorg> completely true
<rbasak> Final question. Above you said "sometimes I think breaking it is the right thing to do". What process would you follow if you thought this case the case?
<rbasak> this was the case?
<LocutusOfBorg> I *always* bother people on #-release :)
<rbasak> What if I said it was OK in #ubuntu-release? Would you upload it then?
<LocutusOfBorg> I don't bother people for some particular cases, e.g. when a new kernel is uploaded after the freeze, and my pet virtualbox-dkms breaks
<rbasak> Maybe that's too much of a trick question, sorry.
<LocutusOfBorg> rbasak, last time I checked you weren't part of ubuntu-release team :p
<rbasak> I mean: how do you know...right :)
<rbasak> OK, I'm done.
<rbasak> Does anyone have any other questions for LocutusOfBorg?
 * mapreri thinks we are supposed to know who wears the release hat :)
<LocutusOfBorg> usually I ask directly to one release team member, who I think is the best person to answer my question
<rbasak> I think that's fine, since any one release team member can grant an exception.
<rbasak> #vote Grant LocutusOfBorg core dev
<meetingology> Please vote on: Grant LocutusOfBorg core dev
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<rbasak> micahg, sil2100, cyphermox: ^
<micahg> LocutusOfBorg: could you please clarify what you mean by your comment about a kernel upload after freeze and virtualbox-dkms breaks?
<LocutusOfBorg> micahg, a new kernel release usually breaks kernel modules
<micahg> yes, but what does that mean in terms of virtualbox that you would do
<LocutusOfBorg> virtualbox builds virtualbox-dkms and virtualbox-guest-dkms kernel modules, and I have to adapt them to make them working/buildable
<LocutusOfBorg> e.g. I did this some days ago
<LocutusOfBorg> http://launchpadlibrarian.net/293649507/virtualbox_5.1.8-dfsg-6build1_5.1.8-dfsg-7~build1.diff.gz
<LocutusOfBorg> look for e.g.
<LocutusOfBorg> + #if LINUX_VERSION_CODE < KERNEL_VERSION(4, 8, 0)
<LocutusOfBorg> +     r = ttm_bo_move_memcpy(bo, evict, no_wait_gpu, new_mem);
<LocutusOfBorg> ++#elif LINUX_VERSION_CODE < KERNEL_VERSION(4, 9, 0)
<cyphermox> yeah API changes often break dkms
<sil2100> Right, so it's anyway a case where you're just fixing a breakage, so all good
<LocutusOfBorg> yes, indeed
<sil2100> Ok, as for voting:
<sil2100> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from sil2100
<micahg> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from micahg
<cyphermox> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from cyphermox
<rbasak> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from rbasak
<rbasak> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Grant LocutusOfBorg core dev
<meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<LocutusOfBorg> thanks :)
<rbasak> LocutusOfBorg: congratulations, and thank you for looking after Ubuntu for us!
<mapreri> \o/
<mapreri> LocutusOfBorg: really, ^5 !
<sil2100> LocutusOfBorg: congrats!
<LocutusOfBorg> thanks :D
<rbasak> LocutusOfBorg: to be clear, what I think we were looking for is that you understand that though the virtualbox fix is obviously needed, from a process perspective it is that it is a bugfix that allows you to upload after feature freeze without release team approval, not just because it's obviously appropriate.
<LocutusOfBorg> rbasak, yes I got it
<sil2100> +1 on rbasak's statement
<rbasak> LocutusOfBorg: we were just struggling a little to hear that from you, but I think we all concluded that you understood that in the end :)
<LocutusOfBorg> :) I try to find the best tradeoff between breaking changes and bugfixes, it isn't always a clear line, but I ask when in doubt
<rbasak> action rbasak to announce LocutusOfBoar'd core dev status
<rbasak> #action rbasak to add LocutusOfBorg to ~ubuntu-core-dev
<meetingology> ACTION: rbasak to add LocutusOfBorg to ~ubuntu-core-dev
<LocutusOfBorg> ta
<rbasak> #action rbasak to announce LocutusOfBoar'd core dev status
<meetingology> ACTION: rbasak to announce LocutusOfBoar'd core dev status
<rbasak> s/Boar/Borg/ Sorry!
<LocutusOfBorg> :)
<rbasak> #topic Request to add gce-compute-image-packages to the ubuntu-cloud packageset
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | DMB Meeting | Current topic: Request to add gce-compute-image-packages to the ubuntu-cloud packageset
<rbasak> philroche: o/
<philroche> rbasak: o/
<rbasak> Sorry we didn't address this on the ML already.
<philroche> np
<rbasak> I'm surprised that the package isn't seeded.
<rbasak> And nor is it in main. But it's installed by default?
<rbasak> That should have no bearing on packageset membership though.
<philroche> This is a new package. The previous incarnation, gce_utils [1], was in proposed. [1] https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gce-utils
<philroche> *is in proposed
<rbasak> I think your request is obviously correct now that I've looked, so +1 for the packageset change, and we don't need a vote.
<philroche> Super. Thanks
<rbasak> #action rbasak to add gce-compute-image-packages to the ubuntu-cloud packageset
<meetingology> ACTION: rbasak to add gce-compute-image-packages to the ubuntu-cloud packageset
<rbasak> I'm not sure it's in the right place though. Perhaps a question for the release team.
<josvaz__> thanks Robbie!
<rbasak> philroche: is the package in cloud images today?
<philroche> rbasak: It is in Yakkety dailies images for GCE
<rbasak> OK, I'll raise that separately, thanks. Not a DMB thing.
<rbasak> #topic Any other business
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | DMB Meeting | Current topic: Any other business
<rbasak> I'd like to raise two things.
<rbasak> 1) Requests in the ML not yet addressed; 2) Meeting dates over the Christmas period.
<rbasak> I see GunnarHj's request and cpaelzer's request in the ML not yet addressed. I'd be happy to take both of these.
<rbasak> But we should probably have a section in the agenda to check for these. Any objections to me adding that?
<rbasak> For future meetings, the next meeting on 5 December should I think be fine.
<rbasak> 19 December seems unlikely to get quorum and currently has no applications.
<rbasak> Same for 2 Jan.
<rbasak> So I propose we drop those two, and next meet on 16 Jan, unless anyone objects (now or later).
<rbasak> I guess that means nobody objects.
<rbasak> #action rbasak to address GunnarHj's im-config yakkety question on the ML
<meetingology> ACTION: rbasak to address GunnarHj's im-config yakkety question on the ML
<rbasak> #action rbasak to address cpaelzer's dovecot-antispam ubuntu-server packageset request on the ML
<meetingology> ACTION: rbasak to address cpaelzer's dovecot-antispam ubuntu-server packageset request on the ML
<rbasak> #agreed Skip meetings on 19 December and 2 January unless anyone objects now or in the future
<rbasak> #agreed Add "Unaddressed ML requests" to the meeting agenda
<rbasak> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Nov 21 16:25:38 2016 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2016/ubuntu-meeting.2016-11-21-15.03.moin.txt
<tyhicks> hello
<tyhicks> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Nov 21 16:31:51 2016 UTC.  The chair is tyhicks. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<mdeslaur> \o
<tyhicks> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<tyhicks> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<tyhicks> jdstrand: you're up
<jdstrand> hey
<jdstrand> very short week this week. I'm working on the dbus interface for snappy primarily
<jdstrand> I will finish up a small PR to snap-confine
<jdstrand> and do various PR reviews
<jdstrand> if I have time, I'll start poking at network-namespace
<jdstrand> that is it from me
<jdstrand> (I'm off Wed-Fri)
<mdeslaur> I'm on community this week
<mdeslaur> I just published imagemagick updates
<mdeslaur> and I have a couple of other updates to test
<mdeslaur> and then will pick something else off the list, that's about it
<mdeslaur> hrm,
<mdeslaur> s beattie isn't here I think...who's next?
<tyhicks> me
<tyhicks> short week for me this week (off thursday and friday)
<tyhicks> I'm on cve triage
<tyhicks> I have an embargoed issue
<tyhicks> I still need to do the apparmor 14.04 SRU followups
<tyhicks> I have some ecryptfs issues to look at
<tyhicks> inode timestamps issue (LP: #1636890)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1636890 in linux (Ubuntu) "invalid file times with overlayroot and encrypted home" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1636890
<tyhicks> crypto api usage issue
<tyhicks> and I have some work planning work to do
<tyhicks> that's it for me
<tyhicks> jjohansen: you're up
<jjohansen> I am working on bugs, upstreaming and I have an apparmor rebase for 4.9-rc7 to do
<jjohansen> I am still chasing down a couple of reference counting bugs
<tyhicks> another rebase is needed for a change this late in the cycle?
<jjohansen> and waiting for feedback on the lxc cross ns issue, and the rawdata interface, so I may endup working on those well
<jjohansen> tyhicks: yes, linus pulled in my patch to upstream changehat which breaks the patches for the ubuntu kernel
<tyhicks> jdstrand, jjohansen: I just noticed that kernel SRU bug #1634753 is needing verification in trusty
<ubottu> bug 1634753 in AppArmor "srcname from mount rule corrupted under load" [Critical,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1634753
<jjohansen> its nothing major, but I want to have the rebase ready for the kt
<tyhicks> ok
<jjohansen> tyhicks: ack I look into that
<tyhicks> hmm, that bug is going to be difficult to verify on trusty
<jjohansen> its a short week for me I am off wed - mon
<tyhicks> sarnold: you're up
<sarnold> I'm in the happy place this week
<sarnold> I'd like to finish libsmbios before the holidays
<sarnold> but I'm also working on 1642386 which feels like a higher priority (I don't know how many people are affected, but it does seem to be more than just me)
<sarnold> that's it for me, chrisccoulson?
<chrisccoulson> I've got an oxide update to get out this week
<chrisccoulson> I've also got 3 build failures I need to fix
<chrisccoulson> Other than that, I plan to make some progress on https://blueprints.launchpad.net/oxide/+spec/ubuntu-webview-implementation, which I didn't manage last week because of another bug
<chrisccoulson> That's me done
<ratliff> I'm in the happy place this week and off on Thursday and Friday
<ratliff> I am working on a number of internal communication, coordination and planning activities.
<ratliff> I am also continuing to work on my universe project as time permits. There are over 900 CVE/release combos that are marked needed or needs-triage that are noted as fixed in the debian changelog
<ratliff> back to you tyhicks
<tyhicks> thanks!
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
<tyhicks> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.
<tyhicks> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/wine-gecko2.21.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/geshi.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/sun-javadb.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/libmodplug.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/nsd.html
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
<tyhicks> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
<teward> Nope just want to give my quarterly applause to the Security Team for their ongoing hard work :)
<sarnold> thanks teward :)
<tyhicks> yse, thanks teward :)
<tyhicks> yes*
<tyhicks> jdstrand, mdeslaur, jjohansen, sarnold, ChrisCoulson, ratliff: Thanks!
<tyhicks> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Nov 21 16:50:33 2016 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2016/ubuntu-meeting.2016-11-21-16.31.moin.txt
<mdeslaur> thanks tyhicks !
<ratliff> thanks tyhicks! and thanks teward!
<sarnold> thanks tyhicks!
<jjohansen> thanks tyhicks
<jdstrand> thanks tyhicks :)
#ubuntu-meeting 2016-11-22
<cpaelzer> o/ ////
<jgrimm> o/
<powersj> o/
<cpaelzer> jgrimm: will you do the ping to the usual suspects?
<jgrimm> on it
<rharper> \o
<cpaelzer> ok, hello friends of ubuntu-server lets get started
<cpaelzer> #startmeeting ubuntu-server-team
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Nov 22 16:01:44 2016 UTC.  The chair is cpaelzer. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:
<jgrimm> poked folks on ubuntu-server
<caribou> o/
<rbasak> o/
<cpaelzer> to make today more interesting we will start with caribou
<cpaelzer> #topic Server & Cloud Bugs & SRU/Pending Uploads (caribou)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Server & Cloud Bugs & SRU/Pending Uploads (caribou)
<caribou> Merged nut & sent MP
<caribou> mostly done with clamav merge
<caribou> Active SRU list :
<caribou> LP: #1447715 - dhclient -6: Can't bind to dhcp address: Cannot assign requested address
<caribou>   - Series to SRU : xenial
<caribou> LP: #1452202 - ubuntu preseed install fails to set a hostname
<caribou>   - Series to SRU : xenial
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1447715 in ifupdown (Ubuntu Xenial) "dhclient -6: Can't bind to dhcp address: Cannot assign requested address" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1447715
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1452202 in netcfg (Debian) "ubuntu preseed install fails to set a hostname" [Unknown,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1452202
<caribou> LP: #1640382 - Segfault event notifier because of race condition
<caribou>   - Series to SRU : trusty
<caribou> LP: #1640676 - [SRU] libvirt 1.2.12 live-migration corrupts some instances
<caribou>   - Series to SRU : trusty
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1640382 in qemu (Ubuntu Trusty) "Segfault event notifier because of race condition" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1640382
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1640676 in Ubuntu Cloud Archive kilo "[SRU] libvirt 1.2.12 live-migration corrupts some instances" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1640676
<cpaelzer> multiple thanks for all the merge work caribou!
<jgrimm> indeed!
<caribou> that's about all we have
<cpaelzer> lets read the SRUs in here if there are any comments on them
<caribou> well I'm TIL on a few packages
<jgrimm> caribou, btw .. nacc is assigned to look into llvm usage on clamav.  sort out best path forward on eliminating the special version of llvm for clamav
<cpaelzer> ok I have another set of SRUs to share as FYI to all of you
<cpaelzer> - bug 1633207 waits on upstream before considering SRU
<cpaelzer> - bug 1389811 depends on MAAS verifying the just migrated fix for 1559088 (if so DUP+SRU)
<caribou> jgrimm: well, debian has removed it
<cpaelzer> - bug 1633220 waits for proposed verification
<cpaelzer> - bug 1640785 just uploaded, waits for verification soon
<cpaelzer> - bug 1626972 working with tinoco from STS (review done, test ongoing and sponsoring afterwards)
<ubottu> bug 1633207 in libvirt (Ubuntu Yakkety) "VM fails to start with dac security driver added" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1633207
<ubottu> bug 1389811 in MAAS "tgtadm: out of memory crash" [Critical,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1389811
<ubottu> bug 1633220 in dovecot (Ubuntu Yakkety) "Dovecot panics when sieve filter outputs much data" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1633220
<ubottu> bug 1640785 in tgt (Ubuntu) "add dep8 test that really utilizes tgt functions" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1640785
<ubottu> bug 1626972 in qemu (Ubuntu Zesty) "QEMU memfd_create fallback mechanism change for security drivers" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1626972
<jgrimm> caribou, even better. that's what i was going to ask you if still relevant! \o/
<caribou> jgrimm: upcoming clamav only has 1 delta from debian
<jgrimm> nice!
<cpaelzer> \o/
<cpaelzer> aynone else ongoing SRUs or having questions for caribou?
<caribou> which can be dropped if I MIR tomsfastmath
<cpaelzer> the link for x tracking would be
<cpaelzer> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-x-tracking-bug-tasks.html#ubuntu-server
<jgrimm> caribou, excellent, thank you
<cpaelzer> ok - with that lets rewind to the beginning
<cpaelzer> #topic Review ACTION points from previous meeting
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<caribou> cpaelzer: thanks for going in first
<cpaelzer> caribou: np, yw
<cpaelzer> We had this item - Not Done: (jgrimm) send jamespage email about iscsitarget
<cpaelzer> jgrimm: whats up with that one?
<jgrimm> Complete.  Note sent at least.
<cpaelzer> ok, no other actions from last time
<cpaelzer> #topic Zesty Development
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<jgrimm> no response from james yet, but smb responded that we can discuss at seville f2f
<cpaelzer> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ZestyZapus/ReleaseSchedule
<cpaelzer> thanks jgrimm
<cpaelzer> anything important/open to discuss on current zesty development?
<jgrimm> merges are coming along splendidly!
<cpaelzer> I see today and the last few weeks that merges come in much faster than last cycles which should give a change to make them more mature on release
<cpaelzer> anything else?
 * rbasak is deep in cpaelzer's strongswan merge proposal
<cpaelzer> thank you rbasak
<cpaelzer> I'd have made it simpler if there would have been an option
<jgrimm> everyone is doing a great job of grabbing work off of the blueprint
<jgrimm> #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-z-server-core
<jgrimm> including [paelzer] Enable AIO backend for tgt: DONE
<cpaelzer> rharper: I heard from jgrimm that we might want to do some  perf checks on that to recommend to MAAS - will talk with you at the sprint I think - ok?
<cpaelzer> ok everybody seems to be happy with the current pace for now
<smoser> cpaelzer, i think maas long term hopes to get rid of tgt
<cpaelzer> lets look at open issues
<cpaelzer> smoser: good to know
<rharper> cpaelzer: yes, maas is the main driver of tgt that I'd like to exercise aio
<cpaelzer> smoser: lets include that POV into the discussion on the sprint
<jgrimm> +1
<rharper> the fallback one is cinder, though not clear how much cinder + iscsi is used in our default openstack deployment
<smoser> replacing with http , which removes a spof on iscsi
<cpaelzer> interesting
<cpaelzer> going to bugs then
<cpaelzer> #subtopic Release Bugs
<cpaelzer> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-z-tracking-bug-tasks.html#ubuntu-server
<cpaelzer> I'm on the qemu one with tinoco
<tinoco> o/
<jgrimm> and nacc has the django one
<cpaelzer> juju likely is the juju team and only wishlist
<cpaelzer> ah no that is yet to be classified
<cpaelzer> the sssd issue has a STS tag
<jgrimm> right
<cpaelzer> could anybody ask them to mark assignee and triage it if they intend to take the work on that one?
<caribou> cpaelzer: ok, will do
<cpaelzer> caribou: ^^
<cpaelzer> thanks
<cpaelzer> added the tgt/http talk to the sprint planning smoser / rharper
<rharper> +1
<cpaelzer> ok, I think we are done here
<jgrimm> cpaelzer, agreed
<cpaelzer> skipping SRUs which we already had brings us to powersj
<cpaelzer> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (powersj)
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<cpaelzer> #link https://jenkins.ubuntu.com/server/
<powersj> Lots of work around cloud-init integration test case development. I believe at least a couple of the issues I found are due to the fact that I am running on LXD and not in a cloud/vm. Now have daily tests on trunk setup for curtin, cloud-init, simplestreams.
<powersj> For this week, hardening the cloud-init tests this week and making generic for dev release, bit of work on boot time testing, and try to get to my MIR requests. /end
<cpaelzer> also we worked on the qemu migration tests and all-but-one are green now https://jenkins.ubuntu.com/server/view/Live%20Migration/
<cpaelzer> waiting to see how stable that will be
<powersj> oh yes :) that is nice to see
<rharper> cpaelzer: nice!
<jgrimm> powersj, curious what instability is attributed to running on LXD?
<cpaelzer> I think I could share on the sprint what I actually cover to fish for ideas what could be added
<cpaelzer> so far almost none of the issues for my tests where due to LXD
<powersj> jgrimm: so learned that trying to install snaps in a lxd container doesn't work, nor does zfs
<jgrimm> ah, ok.
<powersj> I need to close two of the bugs I filed.
<jgrimm> yes, we'll have some tests that we'll have to wait for the vm testing
<cpaelzer> ok - powersj are you good with the QA status for now?
<cpaelzer> so I can go on
<powersj> yar
<cpaelzer> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee)
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<cpaelzer> didn't see a hand raised yet - is any of you here?
<cpaelzer> I pinged smb once more, lets restart that if he shows up later and go on with other sections for now
<cpaelzer> ah here he is
<smb> sorry forgot the time
<cpaelzer> smb: hi - right into you report
<cpaelzer> whats up with the kernel this week?
<smb> nothing really to report yet anyway
<smb> people still fiddle to get a 4.9 for alpha one
<cpaelzer> smb: since to the end of a cycle everybody asks what kernel it will be - is there any remotely existing plan what to expect in zesty eventually?
<smb> cpaelzer, I don't think we really settled yet
<cpaelzer> fine with me - thanks smb
<cpaelzer> going on then
<cpaelzer> any questions for smb from anybody else?
<jgrimm> nope
<cpaelzer> #topic Upcoming Call For Papers
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<cpaelzer> #link https://lwn.net/Calendar/Monthly/cfp/
<cpaelzer> nothing new on there
<jgrimm> zzzz. nada
<cpaelzer> #topic Ubuntu Server Team Events
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<cpaelzer> well we have a Team internal sprint incoming in two weeks
<cpaelzer> if anybody wants to suggest something like "you guys shoudl really sit down and discuss about X" please name that X now
<cpaelzer> ... I take the silence as a no
<cpaelzer> #topic Open Discussion
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<cpaelzer> anything we forgot to discuss right now?
<jgrimm> Nothing from me for once. :)
<cpaelzer> yay
<cpaelzer> we are out of characters it seems
<cpaelzer> #topic Announce next meeting date, time and chair
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<cpaelzer> next week, same time, same day - everybody freshly fed by Thanksgiving and chaired by nacc
<cpaelzer> ok, thank you everybody!
<jgrimm> thanks cpaelzer
<rbasak> Thanks cpaelzer!
<powersj> thx cpaelzer
<cpaelzer> #endmeeting
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<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Nov 22 16:26:42 2016 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2016/ubuntu-meeting.2016-11-22-16.01.moin.txt
#ubuntu-meeting 2016-11-24
<pitti> o/
<pitti> *tock* *tock*, anyone here today?
 * genii makes more coffee
<pitti> ok, I guess we cancel the meeting this week :)
#ubuntu-meeting 2016-11-27
<Andrea1994> #startmeeting Hi
<meetingology> Meeting started Sun Nov 27 20:21:34 2016 UTC.  The chair is Andrea1994. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Hi Meeting | Current topic:
<Andrea1994> #meetingtopic I like ubuntu
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | I like ubuntu Meeting | Current topic:
<Andrea1994> #chair Andrea1994 doko dosaboy
<meetingology> Current chairs: Andrea1994 doko dosaboy
<Andrea1994> #topic topic
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | I like ubuntu Meeting | Current topic: topic
<Andrea1994> #subtopic #progress
<Andrea1994> #subtopic subtopic
<Andrea1994> #accepted asd
<Andrea1994> #help
<Andrea1994> #vote avote
<meetingology> Please vote on: avote
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<Andrea1994> vote +2
<Andrea1994> vote +1
<Andrea1994> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Andrea1994
<Andrea1994> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Andrea1994
<Andrea1994> +2
<Andrea1994> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Andrea1994
<Andrea1994> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: avote
<meetingology> Votes for:1 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<Andrea1994> #save
<andrea1994> #help
<andrea1994> #startmeeting
<meetingology> andrea1994: Error: Can't start another meeting, one is in progress.
<andrea1994> #save
<andrea1994> #restrictlogs
<andrea1994> #replay
<meetingology> andrea1994: Error: Can't replay logs while a meeting is in progress.
<mapreri> #endmeeting
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<meetingology> Meeting ended Sun Nov 27 21:44:59 2016 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2016/ubuntu-meeting.2016-11-27-20.21.moin.txt
<mapreri> andrea1994: please don't play with meetingology ? :)
<andrea1994> mapreri: still dont know what its uses xD
<mapreri> andrea1994: umh?
<mapreri> ah
<mapreri> well.
<andrea1994> mapreri: what's the purpose of meetingology?
<andrea1994> and the purpose of this channel
<mapreri> to record meetings, assist with them, and provide minutes
<andrea1994> seems fun though :)
<mapreri> well
<andrea1994> anyway goodbye
#ubuntu-meeting 2017-11-20
<rbasak> o/
<rbasak> Anyone here?
<oSoMoN> hello
<rbasak> oSoMoN: hello!
<rbasak> Seems it's just me so far :-/
<rbasak> bdmurray sent his apologies
<rbasak> Let's see if anyone else shows up.
<cyphermox> I'm here.
<oSoMoN> hi cyphermox
<jbicha> o/
<sil2100> o/
<oSoMoN> hey jbicha, sil2100
<sil2100> So we seem to have quorum
<sil2100> Can anyone chair?
<cyphermox> I'm in another meeting atm...
<jbicha> I can give it a try, it would be my first time chairing
<jbicha> ok, let's not delayâ¦
<jbicha> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Nov 20 15:10:48 2017 UTC.  The chair is jbicha. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<jbicha> [TOPIC] Review of previous action items
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Review of previous action items
<jbicha> > bdmurray to handle the PPU role for fossfreedom (done)
<jbicha> ok, that's done, I believe cyphermox was going to follow up by working on a proposed ubuntu-budgie seed
<cyphermox> I sent the packageset list, but blocked on having the packageset created in the first place. I mentioned it to slang.asek last week.
<micahg> having a packageset being created shouldn't be a problem in and of itself
<cyphermox> no, just needs someone to push buttons
<rbasak> Is this a TB thing?
<cyphermox> yes
<jbicha> cyphermox: I saw a pastebin but not an email from you with the packageset
<rbasak> If so we have the file-a-bug-and-post-to-the-ML process
<micahg> the issue isn't the packageset but whether or not we wanted to give packageset VS PPU rights
<sil2100> The vote was for PPU rights
<sil2100> And this has been granted
<sil2100> It's a separate topic IMO
<sil2100> We want to create the packageset now for future people that want to contribute to budgie
<jbicha> for clarity, I wanted to see the proposed packageset and I dont think it's a problem to create the packageset before we have someone to use it
<micahg> that's fine
<jbicha> I think we agree that there would be a new application and vote required for anyone to have upload rights for that packageset
<jbicha> cyphermox: can I give you an action item to send the packageset email? and then we can move on to the next topic?
<sil2100> +1 on that
<jbicha> well we can come back to that if needed when we discuss Any Other Business later
<jbicha> > sil2100 to grant ddstreet SRU permissions (done)
<jbicha> and rbalint was granted Core Dev permissions
<jbicha> so no further action is needed there
<jbicha> #topic PPU Application for osomon
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: PPU Application for osomon
<oSoMoN> o/
<jbicha> Each applicant should introduce themselves (1-5 sentences) and provide links to their Ubuntu Wiki page. After the introduction the members of the Membership Review Board will review the pages and, if needed, ask the applicant further questions.
<jbicha> During this time it is encouraged for other members of the community to show their support for the applicant. Do not be alarmed if the members of the Developer Membership Board are quiet during this time; they are most likely reading wiki/launchpad/forum/other pages and deciding how they are going to vote.
<jbicha> oSoMoN: can you introduce yourself?
<oSoMoN> sure
<oSoMoN> I'm Olivier, I'm part of the Canonical desktop team
<oSoMoN> my main duties these days are the maintenance of chromium-browser and libreoffice
<oSoMoN> both ubuntu packages and snaps
<oSoMoN> my PPU application is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/OlivierTilloy/PPUApplication
<oSoMoN> IÂ work on chromium-browser on a daily basis, hopefully my application makes sense
<jbicha> I'm not familiar with how Ubuntu snap uploads work, do you currently need sponsorship for those?
<oSoMoN> no, no sponsorship needed for those
<oSoMoN> there's a shared account in the store for snaps maintained by canonical
<jbicha> hmm, that's interesting
<oSoMoN> and I'm a collaborator to that account, so IÂ have upload rights for the LO and chromium snaps
<jbicha> interesting that snap upload rights don't go through the traditional upload rights application process, but I guess that's off-topic for right now
<jbicha> does anyone else on the DMB have any questions for the applicant?
<rbasak> o/
<rbasak> oSoMoN: could you give us an example of when it may not be appropriate to upload to the archive please?
<sil2100> oSoMoN: recently you have sent a libreoffice SRU through sponsors with a wrong version number (the same as for the devel series) - could you explain why that happened?
<oSoMoN> rbasak, for instance during a freeze
<oSoMoN> sil2100, the SRU had been prepared before the corresponding version was in bionic
<oSoMoN> that was a mistake of course
<rbasak> oSoMoN: OK, and if during a freeze you felt an exception was warranted, what would you do? Feel free to choose an illustrative example rather than trying to exhaustively cover every possibility.
<oSoMoN> I would first question whether that exception is really needed, if e.g. it can't be made a 0day SRU
<oSoMoN> if not IÂ would seek confirmation with the release team
<oSoMoN> and IÂ would be particularly watchful of possible regressions
<rbasak> OK. Do you know where the documentation is that will tell you if we are in a freeze, and for the (formal; not necessarily required) process to seek an exception from the release team?
<oSoMoN> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BionicBeaver/ReleaseSchedule for the release schedule and freezes
<oSoMoN> and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FreezeExceptionProcess
<rbasak> OK thanks you. One final question. After a particular upload, can you summarise your subsequent responsibilities?
<oSoMoN> test out of -proposed, and once the package migrates monitor closely bug/crash reports
<oSoMoN> and act on them asap
<oSoMoN> monitor autopkgtest runs, too
<oSoMoN> and before all that, verify that the package builds fine in -proposed
<jbicha> In your experience, are all chromium-browser SRUs treated as security updates?
<rbasak> OK thanks. I'm ready to vote.
<rbasak> FTR, I don't expect anyone to test from devel -proposed specifically. Just take responsibility for it migrating and for any regressions.
<micahg> oSoMoN: can you please explain why chromium has unusual versioning in the suffix?
<oSoMoN> jbicha, yes, all major chromium updates contain security fixes, and as such go through a validation process by the security team
<oSoMoN> micahg, the last number in the versioning is the bzr revision number in the packaging branch
<micahg> oSoMoN: is there a reason for that?
<oSoMoN> micahg, IÂ took over chromium packaging back in April and that was like that already, didn't feel a need to change/question it
<oSoMoN> I'm certainly open to suggestions
 * micahg wonders who did that...
<oSoMoN> I can imagine using the bzr revision number makes it easy to script the changelog generation for a batch of series
<jbicha> I see that you maintain several chromium PPAs under your own name. I am a bit concerned that they are not maintained with a team
<oSoMoN> it's a cheap way to ensure you always bump the version, no matter what the major version number is
<jbicha> because it doesn't allow anyone else to make uploads to those PPAs, and it's a problem if the primary Ubuntu Chromium maintainer changes (like happened earlier this year)
<oSoMoN> jbicha, right, I've meant to transfer ownership of those PPAs to a team but never got around to doing it
<micahg> oSoMoN: that's what the packaging version: XubuntuY(.Z)
<jbicha> I see there is an existing team: https://launchpad.net/~chromium-daily
<oSoMoN> jbicha, I'm making a note to do that this week
<jbicha> thanks
<oSoMoN> https://launchpad.net/~chromium-team too
<jbicha> ok, that one is probably better :)
<jbicha> I'd like to try to wrap up this meeting this hour, soâ¦ last call for questions
<micahg> oSoMoN: I would encourage you to use standard versioning, I but I can imagine as well someone scripting with that version
<oSoMoN> micahg, ack, I made a note to do that, I'll use the standard versioning scheme starting with the next upload
<rbasak> FWIW, the git-ubuntu work attempts to encourage standardisation on this type of thing using the "lint" tool. It calculates the expected version, and complains if it is anything different. Which means that it has the code necessary for scripting to determine the expected version in a way that meets general Ubuntu developer expectations. We could expose that.
<rbasak> I'm not sure it covers all the edge cases yet, but it's pure Python and has tests so it shouldn't be too difficult to add more esoteric cases.
<oSoMoN> I'll need to migrate the packaging branches to git, too
<jbicha> #voters cyphermox jbicha micahg rbasak sil2100
<meetingology> Current voters: cyphermox jbicha micahg rbasak sil2100
<jbicha> #vote osomon to be granted PPU upload rights for chromium-browser
<meetingology> Please vote on: osomon to be granted PPU upload rights for chromium-browser
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<rbasak> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from rbasak
<micahg> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from micahg
<jbicha> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from jbicha
<sil2100> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from sil2100
<jbicha> cyphermox: are you still here?
<sil2100> I think we can anyway close the vote as the minimum number of positive votes has been reached
<jbicha> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: osomon to be granted PPU upload rights for chromium-browser
<meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<sil2100> oSoMoN: congratulations!
<oSoMoN> thanks!
<jbicha> oSoMoN: congratulations!
<jbicha> thank you for your work on Chromium and LibreOffice
<jbicha> [TOPIC] Any Other Business
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Any Other Business
<oSoMoN> some good suggestions emerged from that conversation, thanks for the questions
<rbasak> jbicha: can you assign actions to sort out oSoMoN please
<rbasak> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperMembershipBoard/KnowledgeBase#Actions_after_a_successful_application
<rbasak> I'm happy to take them if you like.
<jbicha> I can send the announcement email this evening
<jbicha> rbasak: could you take care of the ACL? I guess we need to file a bug with the Tech Board?
<oSoMoN> shall I remove myself from the agenda?
<jbicha> oSoMoN: I can take care of that, thanks
<oSoMoN> cheers
<jbicha> [ACTION] jbicha to send out announcement email
<meetingology> ACTION: jbicha to send out announcement email
<rbasak> ack
<jbicha> [ACTION] rbasak to handle ACL for osomon's chromium-browser upload rights
<meetingology> ACTION: rbasak to handle ACL for osomon's chromium-browser upload rights
<jbicha> The next Developer Membership Board meeting is scheduled for Monday, December 4 at 19:00 UTC
<jbicha> thanks everyone!
<jbicha> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Nov 20 16:02:26 2017 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2017/ubuntu-meeting.2017-11-20-15.10.moin.txt
<micahg> thanks jbicha
<oSoMoN> thanks everyone
<ratliff> Security team meeting time!
<ratliff> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Nov 20 16:32:19 2017 UTC.  The chair is ratliff. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<ratliff> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<ratliff> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<mdeslaur> \o
<ratliff> [TOPIC] Announcements
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Announcements
<ratliff> Today is Ubuntu Community Appreciation Day!
<ratliff> Many thanks to our Ubuntu security community members for your assistance in keeping Ubuntu users secure! :)
<leosilva> \o/
<ratliff> More info at
<ratliff> [LINK] https://community.ubuntu.com/t/ubuntu-community-appreciation-day-nov-20th/1762
<ratliff> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<ratliff> jdstrand: you're up
<jdstrand> This is a short week for me and I'll only be working Mon and Tue. I'll continue to focus on:
<jdstrand> * followups on urgent issues that came up last week as needed
<jdstrand> * snappy PRs
<jdstrand> * pickup the ssh/gpg interfaces PR
<jdstrand> * investigate/implement proper fix for hotplugged devices not being added to device cgroup (mir input forum issue)
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: you're up
<mdeslaur> I'm in the happy place this week
<mdeslaur> I'm currently testing an embargoed issue
<mdeslaur> and I have imagemagick to look at
<mdeslaur> and another update to test
<mdeslaur> that's it for me, sbeattie ?
<sbeattie> I'm on community this week.
<sbeattie> I also have a short week, will be here through wednesday
<sbeattie> I have an apport regression update to publish for ty hicks, and will likely have kernel updates to publish today/tomorrow
<sbeattie> I'm working on the process for security triage for snaps
<sbeattie> And I have some upstream apparmor work to do
<sbeattie> that's it for me....
<ratliff> jjohansen is next. I'm not sure if he is around, so we will give him a minute to chime in if he is
<sbeattie> no ty hicks, I don't see sarnold or jjohansen, chrisccoulson, I think you're up?
<chrisccoulson> I've got a chromium update to test, and I'm also expecting thunderbird
<chrisccoulson> I've got a regression to fix in Firefox (we dropped the "Ubuntu" token from the user agent string, oddly due to a change in the build system)
<chrisccoulson> I added a workaround to our rust package for 1.21 to get it to build, and there's a bug for that opened upstream by other distros (for around 1 month now) with no progress
<chrisccoulson> I thought I understood the issue but it turns out I don't, so I might spend a little bit of time trying to actually understand what's going on and then add my notes to the upstream bug
<chrisccoulson> but I don't want to spend a lot of time on that
<chrisccoulson> Fingers crossed I'll finally have time to do something unrelated to rust or firefox packaging this week
<chrisccoulson> I think that's me done
<chrisccoulson> Am I the only one who doesn't have a short week?
<ratliff> sarnold: go ahead
<mdeslaur> I don't have a short week
<mdeslaur> my week is painfully long
<leosilva> me neither.
<chrisccoulson> heh
<sarnold> I'm in the happy place this week, also working only MTW, doing embargoed work, apparmor patch reviews
<sarnold> that's it for me, ratliff?
<ratliff> I'm on CVE triage this week. I'll test out the new process.
<ratliff> I have a short week. :P
<ratliff> I also have more internal work to try to finish up.
<ratliff> leosilva: on to you
<leosilva> I'm the happy place this week.
<leosilva> I have some db updates to test (it's taking more time than what I want - selftests)
<leosilva> I also get python2.7 to update and will take a look in python3.* updates too.
<leosilva> that' all for me,
<leosilva> ratliff: you are back
<ratliff> thanks!
<ratliff> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
<ratliff> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.
<ratliff> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
<ratliff> https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/mcabber.html
<ratliff> https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/derby.html
<ratliff> https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/yubiserver.html
<ratliff> https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/jabberd2.html
<ratliff> https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/r-cran-stringi.html
<ratliff> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
<ratliff> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
<ratliff> jdstrand, mdeslaur, sbeattie, sarnold, chrisccoulson, leosilva: Thanks!
<sarnold> thanks ratliff!
<jdstrand> thanks ratliff :)
<ratliff> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Nov 20 16:49:16 2017 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2017/ubuntu-meeting.2017-11-20-16.32.moin.txt
<mdeslaur> thanks ratliff!
<sbeattie> ratliff: thanks!
<leosilva> thanks ratliff !
#ubuntu-meeting 2017-11-22
<handsome_feng> Hi, I found that the agenda does not show the item "Package Set/Per Package Uploader Applications", If I want to apply for it, should I add that manually?
#ubuntu-meeting 2017-11-23
<Odd_Bloke> FYI, the Ubuntu Foundations meeting this week has been cancelled due to turkey^Wa large proportion of the team being out for US Thanksgiving.
<doko> ahh
<doko> maybe we can cancel that a little bit earlier next time :-/
 * xnox failed to join the hangout. oh well.
#ubuntu-meeting 2017-11-24
<ener938> Hi
#ubuntu-meeting 2018-11-19
<rbasak> o/
<rbasak> Who's here?
<sil2100> o/
<ddstreet> o/
<rbasak> ddstreet, tdaitx: here?
<jbicha> o/
<tdaitx> o/
<rbasak> Need one more DMB member for quorum.
<cyphermox> o/
<rbasak> \o/
<cyphermox> I'm here :)
<rbasak> #startmeeting Developer Membership Board
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Nov 19 15:01:49 2018 UTC.  The chair is rbasak. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Developer Membership Board Meeting | Current topic:
<rbasak> #topic Review of previous action items
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Developer Membership Board Meeting | Current topic: Review of previous action items
<rbasak> Adding Andreas to ~ubuntu-core-dev and sending announcements (done)
<rbasak> Looks like that can be cleared out.
<rbasak> No other previous action items.
<rbasak> #topic Ubuntu Core Developer Applications
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Developer Membership Board Meeting | Current topic: Ubuntu Core Developer Applications
<rbasak> I suggest starting with ddstreet as his application has been postponed multiple times from previous missed meetings. Any objections?
<sil2100> +1 on tha
<sil2100> *that
<cyphermox> yup, sounds good
<rbasak> #subtopic Dan Streetman
<rbasak> ddstreet: hello! Thank you for your patience with this. Could you introduce yourself please?
<ddstreet> hi i'm ddstreet, been using ubuntu since i started with canonical in 2015
<ddstreet> i'm part of the canonical sustaining engineering team, for reference re: canonical
<ddstreet> my application page is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ddstreet/coredeveloper
<ddstreet> for older history, been using linux since 1997 and unix since 1993 (solaris, college)
<rbasak> I have some questions, so shall I go first?
<ddstreet> mostly my work has been with the linux kernel, but more recently i've expanded/shifted into more userspace packages
<ddstreet> fine with me
<rbasak> We recently updated https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/DeveloperApplicationTemplate but I guess your application page predates that change.
<ddstreet> rbasak probably, i actually just copied over my sru-developer application and edited it
<rbasak> Please could you explain your goals in applying to be core dev? Is there anything in particular that you are blocked from doing now, where a successful application would unblock you?
<ddstreet> primarily 1) upload to devel release and 2) develop/maintain core tooling, e.g. ubuntu-dev-tools
<rbasak> OK. What sorts of uploads to the devel release are you expecting to make?
<ddstreet> bugfixes
<ddstreet> almost exclusively
<ddstreet> and then sru those fixes
<jbicha> ddstreet: I'm leaning towards voting no because it looks like your list of non-SRU uploads is pretty short & you already have upload rights to do SRUs
<rbasak> ddstreet: do you have specific examples of sponsored uploads of this nature done to the development release please?
<ddstreet> jbicha yep i've familiar with the 'no, moar' position from the dmb :)
<ddstreet> rbasak just whatever is listed in my upload history
<rbasak> It's hard to sift through those filtering for just the ones relevant to your "unblocking request", IYSWIM.
<rbasak> That's why we updated https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/DeveloperApplicationTemplate :)
<ddstreet> you mean, can i list specific uploads that i needed to have sponsored instead of being able to upload myself?
<rbasak> Right
<ddstreet> no i don't have that broken out
<rbasak> That's what I feel I ought to be assessing.
<ddstreet> i should also state, i plan to sponsor other's uploads to devel, as well, that wasn't clear from my initial statement
<jbicha> https://udd.debian.org/cgi-bin/ubuntu-sponsorships.cgi?render=html&sponsoree=dan+streetman&sponsoree_search=name
<jbicha> I found that link on your application :) :)
<cyphermox> ddstreet: could you expand on the thought-process behind the fix for https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ebtables/2.0.10.4-3.5ubuntu4 ? seems like ignoring errors is generally worse than fixing whatever the underlying problem is, maybe there's some background I'm missing for ebtables
<ddstreet> cyphermox that was due to an issue with WSL; the package upgrade failed because the service stop failed, but that was because it never was able to start (or work) in the first place
<ddstreet> there is no reason to block package upgrade if the service stop fails, however
<ddstreet> for this particular pkg, at least
<cyphermox> I disagree; you generally do want to catch failures even if it's a stop -- if it doesn't stop and you try to start it after and it fails to start, you're not really in a better position
<rbasak> I see five bugfix uploads to the development release in the past 12 months I think. Are there any more?
<ddstreet> cyphermox for this particular service, nothing is running and there is no blockage to 'starting' it
<ddstreet> cyphermox there additionall was back-and-forth discussion for that bug and that approach was settled on, though i did suggest/discuss other approaches
<rbasak> And none of the sponsors from those five bugfix development uploads appear to have endorsed or commented on your application. Is there a reason for this?
<ddstreet> rbasak that's probbaly right i suppose
<ddstreet> i can't speak for sponsors, i have no idea why they ignored my request for endorsement/comment
<rbasak> What's your experience in getting uploads landed in the development release currently?
<rbasak> (ie. finding sponsorship)
<ddstreet> i can usually get slashd to upload to devel when he's around
<ddstreet> but i can't upload anyone else's devel fixes
<rbasak> OK, thanks. Does anyone have any further questions?
<ddstreet> and he's not always around or have time
<jbicha> no more questions from me
<tsimonq2> Hi, sorry I'm late.
<cpaelzer> sorry to interrupt, can I as a sponsor of ddstreet seeing the discussion going on ask a question as well?
<tsimonq2> cpaelzer: I don't see why not.
<tsimonq2> I'm personally ready to vote after talking with ddstreet the other day.
<rbasak> cpaelzer: absolutely
<cpaelzer> thanks, I mentioned that I can't speak for the usual complexities of a core-dev in my endorsement as I haven't touched those. I wonder if ddstreet would be able to identify a list of pacakages where getting PPU on these would solve 99% of his issue withut needing full core-dev
<cpaelzer> it seems there are a few common candidates that he is contributing to, and those might be a good first step to grow from there
<ddstreet> cpaelzer no, i think i do need core dev
<ddstreet> thanks for the suggestion though
<rbasak> OK. I think everyone is ready to vote then?
<ddstreet> i fully expect the dmb to vote me down with 'you need moar' though :)
<cpaelzer> could you outline why that is needed and a set of PPUs would not so that the group here can include that in the decision?
<ddstreet> cpaelzer i (and those i work with) fix a wide variety of packages
<ddstreet> and i need devel upload not just for myself but also to upload/sponsor others
<tsimonq2> Are they the same packages (but a lot of them)?
<ddstreet> additionally, much of what i want to do as core dev is fix the lack of tooling to make it easier for others to prepare their uploads for sponsors
<ddstreet> and, allow sponsors to much more easily check off the long list of upload items without manually looking to make sure uploads meet each item
<ddstreet> tsimonq2 all pkgs in main plus quite a lot in universe, if that's what you are asking
<tsimonq2> That would be a good idea ddstreet  have you proposed your ideas? :)
<tsimonq2> s/  /, /
<tsimonq2> ddstreet: I see.
<ddstreet> tsimonq2 i have a long history of rewriting ubuntu-dev-tools pull-* tooling
<ddstreet> that i'm waiting to get coredev before i push to ubuntu-dev-tools git
<ddstreet> as well there needs to be tooling to check debdiffs instead of having to check them manually
<cyphermox> ddstreet: I don't understand that comment? tooling to avoid manually looking over uploads?
<tsimonq2> ddstreet: And I have a long history of nagging mapreri to merge your changes already :P
<tsimonq2> (He's a sponsor of mine.)
<ddstreet> cyphermox yep; check version number, changelog formatting; LP: # tag, run autopkgtests, build, etc.
<rbasak> I've discussed ddstreet's proposals in the past. I have no objection to them, but I've been focused on the same problems but using git instead, and I prefer to focus my time there.
<cyphermox> mmkay
<ddstreet> tsimonq2 mapreri already discussed and agreed that i would push my changes, not him
<rbasak> ("git ubuntu lint" etc)
<ddstreet> as my changes will be ongoing, and waiting another year+ for 'review' and upload of my chagnes isn't sustainable
<cyphermox> yeah. it's not bad, just won't ever be a replacement for eyes
<ddstreet> rbasak git ubuntu doesn't cover all pkgs in ubuntu
<rbasak> Unfortunately the nature of the changes means that it's a big review.
<rbasak> ddstreet: the plan is that it will :)
<ddstreet> IMHO much of git ubuntu backend functionality should go into a lib
<rbasak> For now we accept individual additions to the whitelist
<rbasak> git ubuntu backend functionality _is_ a lib :)
<ddstreet> right but you restrict that functionality to only the git ubuntu tool
<jbicha> I understand the desire to avoid sponsoring, but your application here would be stronger if you had a longer list of things that have been sponsored or at least in the sponsor queue
<rbasak> Admittedly it's not split out
<tsimonq2> +1 jbicha
<ddstreet> rbasak well, if it's not split out, that's not really a usable public lib then :)  but i get your point
<rbasak> Much functionality depends on being able to read what's there, and that's made much easier by relying on a single format (git and the nature of the git-ubuntu trees) in order to make that work.
<ddstreet> jbicha yeah i know, 'moar'
<ddstreet> :)
<cyphermox> rbasak: otoh, linting is not git-specific
<rbasak> So I think there's probably not much benefit in exporting API to share code in this case.
<rbasak> cyphermox: it absolutely is!
<tsimonq2> Anyway, are we ready to formally vote?
<ddstreet> rbasak we can certainly discuss git ubuntu later if you want :)
<cyphermox> rbasak: not checking that a package is sane :)
<cyphermox> yeah, I think we're ready to vote
<rbasak> cyphermox: linting needs to look at what's there already, how the archive looks, etc. In git-ubuntu we do it by examining the repo. There are other ways, but no reason for git-ubuntu lint to not use what's there.
<rbasak> But then there's less commonality with a non-git approach.
<rbasak> Anyway
<rbasak> Let's move on to vote then.
<cyphermox> rbasak: that's not what he was talking about -- it was mostly just looking at the control and stuff
<rbasak> #vote Approve ddstreet's core dev application
<meetingology> Please vote on: Approve ddstreet's core dev application
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<rbasak> -1 detailed reasons to follow
<meetingology> -1 detailed reasons to follow received from rbasak
<tsimonq2> -1 I'd like to see more devel work.
<meetingology> -1 I'd like to see more devel work. received from tsimonq2
<sil2100> +0 (I know Dan's SRU work and I know his capable, but I would need to see a bit more devel work and demonstration of devel knowledge (aka. moar))
<meetingology> +0 (I know Dan's SRU work and I know his capable, but I would need to see a bit more devel work and demonstration of devel knowledge (aka. moar)) received from sil2100
<sil2100> s/his/he's/
<ddstreet> ah, moar, what a surprise ;-)
<cyphermox> -1 ; as for the others; would like to see more non-SRU, devel work -- merges, more -proposed, etc.
<meetingology> -1 ; as for the others; would like to see more non-SRU, devel work -- merges, more -proposed, etc. received from cyphermox
<jbicha> -1 insufficient non-SRU uploads (or evidence of other core-dev work). Sorry
<meetingology> -1 insufficient non-SRU uploads (or evidence of other core-dev work). Sorry received from jbicha
<rbasak> Is that everyone?
<rbasak> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Approve ddstreet's core dev application
<meetingology> Votes for:0 Votes against:4 Abstentions:1
<meetingology> Motion denied
<rbasak> My detailed reasons:
<rbasak> I'm OK in principle with granting core dev for the purposes of landing bugfixes in packages in main in the development release, without having wider experience that I'd normally expect from a core dev applicant, if that is going to unblock progress. However, in that case, I'd expect a strong application. In this case, you have only five sponsored uploads in the past twelve months, which perhaps is
<rbasak> only just on the line of demonstrating need, and no endorsements from any of your recent sponsors for this class of uploads. For this reason, I'm afraid I'm -1 for now. I welcome a reapplication once you have some of: a higher rate of sponsored uploads to the development release; strong endorsements from your sponsors for this type of upload.
<rbasak> I wrote up some general personal opinions on what I look for in a core dev application here, which I hope will also help: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RobieBasak/DMB/CoreDev
<rbasak> FWIW, no endorsements from sponsors for uploads directly related to the application means an automatic -1 from me, without an exceptional reason.
<rbasak> Nothing to do with "moar".
<rbasak> ddstreet: sorry we couldn't approve your application on this occasion. But we do appreciate your work, and hope you will continue with sponsorship for the time being. We welcome you to apply again once the concerns raised here have been addressed.
<ddstreet> yep, already rescheduled myself for 2 wks from now :)
<jbicha> I know it's pretty discouraging to be told "no" here, but please do work on strengthening your application & apply again in a few months
<jbicha> lol
<ddstreet> jbicha it's really no surprise at all - been thru this already with sru-devel application
<rbasak> Could a DMB member volunteer to follow https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperMembershipBoard/KnowledgeBase#Actions_after_an_unsuccessful_application please?
<rbasak> I guess I'll do it
<rbasak> #action rbasak to close ddstreet's application
<meetingology> ACTION: rbasak to close ddstreet's application
<rbasak> #subtopic Tiago Daitx
<jbicha> thanks, I was too slow
<rbasak> tdaitx: hello! Thank you for your patience.
<rbasak> Please could you introduce yourself?
<tdaitx> hi! I'm Tiago Daitx. My core dev application is available at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TiagoDaitx/CoreDeveloperApplication
<tdaitx> I have been on the Ubuntu Foundations team for a bit over 3 years now
<tdaitx> when I joined I barely had any experience with packaging - which is pretty unusual for foundations
<tdaitx> what I had was experience with openjdk and thus my main focus was on openjdk maintenance and security updates
<tdaitx> that includes backporting security patches from newer openjdk versions
<tdaitx> and of course packaging
<tdaitx> on that side I have worked on openjdk-6, 7, 8, 9, 10, and now 11, from precise to disco, including the openjdk migration from 8 to 9/10/11
<tdaitx> in addition to that I have helped on merges, FTBFS and autopkgtest fixes, srus, and a few migrations
<tdaitx> that said I don't recall ever dealing with a NBS
<cyphermox> it's not as much an issue with things being in proposed.
<cyphermox> (in a way, it is, but not quite as when the docs were written)
<tdaitx> so my sponsors have requested me to go and ask for coredev
<jbicha> I'm curious about the status of the openjdk-11 transition for bionic
<tdaitx> jbicha: I have a list of packages that need to be sru before openjdk-11
<jbicha> do you have a tracker bug for it?
<tdaitx> after bootstraping those I can move to openjdk-11 itself
<tdaitx> and the other packages
<tdaitx> currently it is being tracked in a trello card
<tdaitx> I was working on the openjdk-8 and openjdk-10 fixes after a regression from the last security update
<jbicha> is that a public card? do you have a link? (sorry for perhaps going a bit off-topic here)
<tdaitx> and also the openjdk-7 security update
<tdaitx> I don't think it is public, it is under the foundations team board
<tdaitx> let me check
<jbicha> ok, no problem today if it's not public
<tdaitx> yeah, it is not
<jbicha> I guess my context was user complaints in bug 1796027
<tdaitx> with the security updates out of the way I will start now moving into the migration
<ubottu> bug 1796027 in openjdk-lts (Ubuntu) "Update openjdk-11 to 11.0.1 -> Backport it from Ubuntu 18.10" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1796027
<tdaitx> jbicha: yeah, I am aware of that, but first we had to deal with getting openjdk-11 in cosmic
<tdaitx> and all the security updates out
<tdaitx> for now I have updated openjdk-lts (openjdk-10) in bionic with the security patches from 11.0.1
<rbasak> Am I right in thinking this is an application to go direct to core dev - you can't currently upload anything directly?
<tdaitx> so security wise openjdk-lts in cosmic is good
<tdaitx> rbasak: you are correct
<tdaitx> I never applied for openjdk upload rights because all uploads go through the security team anyway
<tdaitx> and apart from it there is no particular package that I work on, I just look at whats broken and where people need some help
<tdaitx> I considered motu, but I was told by sponsors/people on my team to go directly to coredev, which is understandable as it covers various packages we work on
<rbasak> Have you ever handled a transition?
<jbicha> no more questions from me
<tdaitx> yes, altought it it has been some time
<tdaitx> I helped on the gcc5 transition
<rbasak> Can you tell me how you might detect if an upload might trigger a transition, and what you'd do if you find that to be the case?
<tdaitx> what I recall is that abi/api changes which require a new lib version which will end up causing a transition
<tdaitx> so every package that (build-)deps on it will need to be rebuild
<tdaitx> and possibility fixed if there are incompatibilities
<rbasak> OK. Good answer from the technical side. But what about the coordination side? What would you do to coordinate it?
<tdaitx> well, first making sure the teams that have packages which would need to go through the transition know about it
<tdaitx> then discuss it and make sure there is consensus on how to approach it
<rbasak> OK thanks
<rbasak> I have one final question.
<rbasak> For a jump-straight-to-core-dev application, it seems to me that you have very few endorsements, given that you have a wide range of core dev sponsors many of whom are on your team at Canonical.
<rbasak> Is there a reason for this? Have you asked for more endorsements?
<rbasak> Or is there some expectation that more endorsements weren't necessary?
<tdaitx> I did ask for the endorsements on my team's channel and also for a few other people I worked with
<tdaitx> I didn't really go around pushing people for it, I assumed 3 would be good enough
<tdaitx> for which 2 are from my team
<rbasak> OK, thanks.
<rbasak> Everyone ready to vote?
<slashd> o/
<slashd> rbasak, yes I'm here
<sil2100> I have one last question
<rbasak> Sure
<sil2100> tdaitx: did you have any experience in parsing update_output?
<slashd> sorry need to change my calendar since I have move the time in Canada
<tdaitx> no experience in actually parsing it, i have looked at it
<sil2100> tdaitx: when would you consult update_output usually? Do you know any use-case of it?
<tdaitx> so I usually go for update_excuses, I remember using update_output very fews times, but that was about 2 years back
<tdaitx> I think it was about the gcc5 transition
<tdaitx> sil2100: can't really remember why I needed it though, sorry
<tdaitx> I had steve helping me back then
<sil2100> tdaitx: yeah, during those it might also be useful - usually when a package is marked as 'valid candidate' but doesn't want to migrate due to some strange uninstallability issue
<cyphermox> ready to vote?
<sil2100> Yep, ready
<rbasak> #vote approve tdaitx's core dev application
<meetingology> Please vote on: approve tdaitx's core dev application
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<rbasak> -1 I'm generally satisfied with everything I've seen, but I'm concerned about the lack of endorsements from the majority of your recent sponsors, especially for a jump straight to core dev which makes sense in your case but I think still requires a stronger-than-normal application. Get positive endorsements from your recent sponsors please; if they are in support of your application this shouldn't
<meetingology> -1 I'm generally satisfied with everything I've seen, but I'm concerned about the lack of endorsements from the majority of your recent sponsors, especially for a jump straight to core dev which makes sense in your case but I think still requires a stronger-than-normal application. Get positive endorsements from your recent sponsors please; if they are in support of your application this shouldn't received from rbasak
<rbasak> be difficult. If they aren't in support of your application, then that is cause for concern.
<cyphermox> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from cyphermox
<tsimonq2> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from tsimonq2
<jbicha> +1 thanks for your Java work
<meetingology> +1 thanks for your Java work received from jbicha
<tdaitx> jbicha: thanks =)
<tsimonq2> slashd?
<tdaitx> rbasak: ack, I will look into that
<rbasak> FWIW, with endorsements from others in your team I'll be an automatic +1
<rbasak> It's down to slashd I think as to whether you'll need to do that.
<slashd> give me 1 minute to read down, sorry I'm late with due to the time change
<rbasak> np
<slashd> +1 based on what I read above, I don't want to take much time, as I'm the one being late to the party
<meetingology> +1 based on what I read above, I don't want to take much time, as I'm the one being late to the party received from slashd
<rbasak> I think that's everyone here.
<sil2100> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from sil2100
<rbasak> Or not
<sil2100> (otherwise we'd have to wait for those that are absent)
<rbalint> rbasak, i have not sponsored uploads from tdaitx but from following his work and interactions on irc and email i'd give a +1
<rbasak> Now it is with only one absent team member I think?
<rbasak> rbalint: thanks! I think maybe it doesn't matter now?
<rbasak> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: approve tdaitx's core dev application
<meetingology> Votes for:5 Votes against:1 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<tsimonq2> Congrats. :)
<rbasak> Yes it can't be overturned by -1 from absent members.
<tdaitx> \o/
<rbasak> Congrats tdaitx! Thank you for your work!
<rbalint> tdaitx, \o/ :-)
<tdaitx> omg thanks folks!
<rbasak> Can a DMB member volunteer for https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperMembershipBoard/KnowledgeBase#Actions_after_a_successful_application please?
 * tsimonq2 raises hand
<rbasak> Thanks!
<rbasak> #action tsimonq2 to make ACL changes for tdaitx's successful application
<meetingology> ACTION: tsimonq2 to make ACL changes for tdaitx's successful application
<rbasak> #action tsimonq2 to announce tdaitx's successful application
<meetingology> ACTION: tsimonq2 to announce tdaitx's successful application
<tsimonq2> AOB now? :)
<tsimonq2> (I have an item.)
<rbasak> Nearly
<rbasak> #topic Outstanding mailing list requests to assign
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Developer Membership Board Meeting | Current topic: Outstanding mailing list requests to assign
<rbasak> Anything there?
<tsimonq2> Ahh.
<rbasak> There's Aron's packageset request
<rbasak> And vala-panel from Martin
<rbasak> And general packageset update requests, eg. Rik.
<rbasak> Any volunteers?
<cyphermox> volunteers to respond?
<rbasak> To handle those requests, yes
<cyphermox> yup, sure
<rbasak> Thanks!
<rbasak> #action cyphermox to handle the recent three packageset requests
<meetingology> ACTION: cyphermox to handle the recent three packageset requests
<rbasak> #topic AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Developer Membership Board Meeting | Current topic: AOB
<rbasak> tsimonq2: over to you.
<tsimonq2> Quick (slightly offtopic) question that someone here might know the answer to.
<tsimonq2> Where does the udevbot code live? cyphermox proposed on ubuntu-devel a month or two back that +1 maintenance could be done in the patch pilot style as well (plus sponsoring, FTBFS, etc.) so it'd be good to have a key for it.
<tsimonq2> It's DMBish in nature.
<cyphermox> tsimonq2: not really
<cyphermox> it's not owned by the DMB anyway
<rbasak> I'm not sure the current DMB people will know :-/
<cyphermox> that's up to the IRC team really.
<rbasak> I guess out of scope for this meeting then.
<tsimonq2> Got it. I'll continue asking around then, I think...
<rbasak> Try #ubuntu-devel more generally maybe?
<rbasak> Any other AOB?
<tsimonq2> rbasak: I did a few days ago.
<rbasak> Keep trying :)
<tsimonq2> OK :)
<rbasak> Or email ubuntu-devel@ maybe?
<tsimonq2> Good ideam
<tsimonq2> s/m/./
<rbasak> OK, thanks all! The next meeting will be in two weeks at 1900 UTC.
<rbasak> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Nov 19 16:21:39 2018 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2018/ubuntu-meeting.2018-11-19-15.01.moin.txt
<tsimonq2> o/
<tsimonq2> Thanks rbasak
#ubuntu-meeting 2018-11-22
<rbalint> o/
<juliank> o|
<doko> hi, all americans and canadians missing?
<juliank> canada does not have thanksgiving today?
<xnox> doko, canada thanks giving was last week =)
<doko> somebody knowing the bot should start the meeting ...
<xnox> doko, well, i'm not sure.
<xnox> doko, did you join the call?
<xnox> doko, cause everyone is off.
<cyphermox> #startmeeting Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Nov 22 16:06:35 2018 UTC.  The chair is cyphermox. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic:
<cyphermox> #topic Lightning rounds
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: Lightning rounds
<cyphermox> echo $(shuf -e slangasek bdmurray xnox tdaitx doko sil2100 rbalint infinity cyphermox mwhudson rcj philroche Odd_Bloke fginther juliank platonical tobikoch aleks_bogdanov)
<cyphermox> infinity tobikoch cyphermox tdaitx bdmurray platonical juliank slangasek fginther sil2100 Odd_Bloke aleks_bogdanov rcj rbalint xnox doko philroc
<cyphermox> hrm, maybe most people are away for Thanksgiving
<tobikoch> * vanguard job shadowing mostly
<tobikoch> (done)
<tobikoch> cyphermox: :D
<cyphermox> awesomesauce
<cyphermox> last week: various shim reviews; catching up with upstreams, etc.
<cyphermox> plymouth update in progress
<sil2100> o/
<cyphermox> along with the plymouth bugfixing that never ended (TM)
<cyphermox> partly updated casper, handed off to desktop team to finish (a11y settings)
<cyphermox> preparing to release a snap for netplan
<cyphermox> and netplan SRUs.
<cyphermox> (done)
<juliank> * merged aptitude
<juliank> * synced gnu-efi 3.0.9
<juliank> * haskell-fsnotify update for haskell-hinotify 0.3.10 API break; and follow-up rebuilds
<juliank> * bumped yaml-cpp SONAME for ABI break (also in Debian); and follow-up rebuilds
<juliank> * ganeti and ganeti-2.15 build fixes following the haskell-hinotify API break
<juliank> * some small apt git merges and bug triaging
<juliank> * provided a merge proposal for the desktop team to fix bug in nautilus (LP: #1804260)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1804260 in nautilus (Ubuntu) "/usr/bin/nautilus:11:g_type_check_instance_is_fundamentally_a:g_object_unref:nautilus_search_engine_finalize:g_object_unref:g_closure_invoke" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1804260
<juliank> * networkd-dispatcher in Debian, waiting for LP to pick it up for syncing :)
<juliank> (done)
<juliank> sil2100:
<sil2100> Not ready, still need some moments
<cyphermox> Odd_Bloke: around?
<cyphermox> maybe not
<cyphermox> rbalint:
<Odd_Bloke> Sorry, still writing my update!
<cyphermox> Odd_Bloke: you're not alone, no worries
<Odd_Bloke> Wasn't prepared for how fast my slot would come around given Thanksgiving. :p
<xnox> Odd_Bloke, we thought you were pretending to be american and have a second thanksgiving.
 * cyphermox likes turkey
<Odd_Bloke> * Further minimal image automation
<Odd_Bloke> * Testing of walinuxagent SRU (LP: #1799498)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1799498 in walinuxagent (Ubuntu Cosmic) "New Microsoft Azure Linux Agent" [Undecided,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1799498
<Odd_Bloke> * Bumping the Nvidia driver version used by GKE
<tobikoch> turkey is a nice place, too.
<Odd_Bloke> * Unblocking GCE disco images
<Odd_Bloke> * Addressing disk space issues on some of our slaves
<Odd_Bloke> * Various other cloud images work
<Odd_Bloke> (done)
<juliank> only tofurky for me
<rbalint> test msg
<sil2100> Ok, I'm ready
<sil2100> - Short week - back from vacation on Monday
<sil2100> - SRU reviews and releases
<sil2100> - Kernel SRU reviews
<sil2100> - Pushing out ubuntu-image 1.5 to -proposed
<sil2100> - Reviewing and merging sru-report improvements from Brian
<sil2100> - Pi3 arm64 work
<sil2100>   * Iterating on branch reviews for livecd-rootfs etc.
<sil2100>   * Performed some fresh tests of armhf ubuntu-image generated classic images
<sil2100>   * Cross-built an arm64 rootfs locally
<sil2100>   * Multiple tests on the board, trying to figure out the bootloader bits to enable booting the arm64 image in u-boot
<sil2100>   * Lots of tweaking here and there
<sil2100> - Candidate interview
<sil2100> - Some archive/ADT work
<sil2100> (done)
<sil2100> Odd_Bloke: oh, so wala is all +1? I can release it then?
<tdaitx> * finished packaging & tests, uploaded openjdk-8 8u191 and openjdk-lts 10.0.2+13-1ubuntu0.18.04.4
<tdaitx> * working on openjdk-11 update (autopkgtests + LP: #1796982)
<tdaitx> * double-triple-over-checked and then uploaded livecd-rootfs 2.525.10 for bionic
<tdaitx> Other:
<tdaitx> * I'm a core-dev now, baby!
<tdaitx> * making sure I don't click the wrong stuff in launchpad
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1796982 in openjdk-lts (Ubuntu Cosmic) "[Regression] AArch64: log and cos/sin intrinsics give incorrect results" [Critical,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1796982
<tdaitx> (done)
<sil2100> tdaitx: ;)
<xnox> * subiquity s390x - should now boot from USB/DVD, awaiting remote hands
<xnox> * subiqutity - working on zdev & multipath specs, good progress
<xnox> * systemd sru is in bionic, again.
<xnox> * helping with transitions a little bit
<xnox>   - e.g. mongo upload is in progress
<xnox> done
<rbalint> * fixed FTBFS and minor updates: libcec, kodi
<rbalint> * prepared wireshark -security backport of 2.6.4-2 to fix CVEs and regressions
<rbalint> * fixed LP: #1803391 for xenial's different hang in udev
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1803391 in systemd (Ubuntu Xenial) "Systemd update installation hangs in unattended-upgrades InstallOnShutdown mode" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1803391
<rbalint> * packaged new rax-nova-agent and prepared SRUs
<Odd_Bloke> sil2100: I haven't seen an update from Microsoft on their testing.
<rbalint> * released unattended-upgrades 1.8 fixing several long-outstanding bugs and some performance improvement
<rbalint> * poking all sru members to accept u-u :-)
<rbalint> (done)
<doko> still doing archive opening transition stuff. half time uploading, half time cursing
<doko> (done)
<cyphermox> philroche: ?
<philroche> * cloud image build system vanguard
<philroche> * cloud image build changes
<philroche> (done)
<cyphermox> weee
<cyphermox> #topic http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-aa-incoming-bug-tasks.html
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-aa-incoming-bug-tasks.html
<cyphermox> gah
<cyphermox> obviously, not aa
<cyphermox> #topic http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-dd-incoming-bug-tasks.html
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-dd-incoming-bug-tasks.html
<cyphermox> IRC is hard, okay?
<cyphermox> anything to discuss in the incoming list?
<cyphermox> I'll call that a no
<cyphermox> doko: you wanted to talk about the proposed-by-team report on a weekly basis?
<doko> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/proposed-migration/update_excuses_by_team.html
<cyphermox> #topic http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/proposed-migration/update_excuses_by_team.html
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/proposed-migration/update_excuses_by_te
<cyphermox> fail.
<doko> yep, not much talking, just a reminder and see what we can address
<cyphermox> yup
<cyphermox> lemme just jiggle the meeting notes so it shows up nice
<cyphermox> #link http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/proposed-migration/update_excuses_by_team.html
<cyphermox> that ought to do it
<doko> most things are failing tests ...
<doko> sil2100: ubuntu-image ...
<doko> sil2100: please could you update the symfony hint?
<rbalint> i'm taking twisted
<cyphermox> ok
<rbalint> and look into some
<doko> rbalint: please update to new upstream as well
<cyphermox> ready to move on?
<cyphermox> #topic AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: AOB
<cyphermox> anything else?
<doko> yep, so everybody on the call should at least pick up one package ...
<cyphermox> going once
<cyphermox> going twice
<cyphermox> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Nov 22 16:33:15 2018 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2018/ubuntu-meeting.2018-11-22-16.06.moin.txt
<cyphermox> thanks everyone
<sil2100> cyphermox: thanks!
<sil2100> doko: ACK, will do in a moment
#ubuntu-meeting 2019-11-18
<rbasak> o/
<sahid> o/
<cyphermox> o/
<cyphermox> are we quorate today?
<sahid> cyphermox: not sure what you mean but I subscrided myself to our agenda https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperMembershipBoard/Agenda
<sahid> i hope that is correct
<rbasak> Looks like we're not quorate
<rbasak> One DMB member sent their apologies. The others are just absent. Sorry sahid, it looks like this meeting will need to be deferred.
<rbasak> sahid: I suggest you bump yourself up in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperMembershipBoard/Agenda to the next scheduled meeting
<sahid> fair-enough I will do that, thanks rbasak
#ubuntu-meeting 2019-11-19
<joeubuntu> Hey All.
<cyphermox> hey
<cyphermox> doko: cpaelzer: didrocks: MIR Team meeting?
<didrocks> hey!
<cyphermox> we have mysql-router and tpm-udev
<cyphermox> I'm happy to review tpm-udev
<cpaelzer> o/
<cpaelzer> we have ndctl coming (not yet filed) that I'll be reviewing after someone else from the team did the filing
<cyphermox> ok
<cyphermox> taker for mysql-router?
<cpaelzer> I was too involved in the mysql merging
<didrocks> if it can wait for december, I can have a look, but seems more server-involved
<cpaelzer> so I stepped back (that is why I let ndctl file independent of me)
<cpaelzer> I can take it if that is ok for everyone
<cpaelzer> objections?
<didrocks> I don't have any objections, if you want a quick second-look, feel free to ping (but it will be a quick one if before december ;))
<cpaelzer> probably low effort on MIR and more effort on security anyway
<cpaelzer> ok didrocks
<cpaelzer> then I'll take that one
<cpaelzer> and if uncertain I'll ping
<didrocks> sure :)
<cyphermox> ok then, that's all that was open unclaimed
<joeubuntu> For security - runc, leibheif are in progress and a lot of packages for Ubuntu Core 20.
#ubuntu-meeting 2019-11-21
<rbalint> o/
<bdmurray> o/
<waveform> o/
<bdmurray> #startmeeting Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Nov 21 16:01:22 2019 UTC.  The chair is bdmurray. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic:
<bdmurray> #topic Lightning rounds
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: Lightning rounds
<bdmurray> xnox waveform juliank doko infinity rbalint tdaitx cyphermox vorlon bdmurray mwhudson sil2100
<bdmurray> xnox: !
<sil2100> WIN
<bdmurray> waveform: how about you?
<waveform> * Looked at i3pystatus migration
<waveform> * Tested kernel fixes for USB storage issue on Pi2/3/3+ (LP: #1852510); both dwc2 and fixed dwcotg fixes appear to work - no detectable load / performance difference with dwc2
<waveform> * Worked on combined gadget snap Pi classic & core (with view to aiding similar development for Nitrogen i.MX6)
<waveform> * Worked on pi configuration tool some more
<waveform> (done)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1852510 in linux-raspi2 (Ubuntu Eoan) "IO errors when writing large amounts of data to USB storage in eoan on RPI2/3 (armhf kernel)" [Critical,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1852510
<bdmurray> doko:
<doko> sorry, will go last
<bdmurray> infinity is ill
<bdmurray> rbalint:
<rbalint> (very short week)
<rbalint> * partner work
<rbalint> * other partner work
<rbalint> * discussions related to systemd
<rbalint> * patch for LP: #1853343
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1853343 in wslu (Ubuntu) "Please detect sound and X server in WSL2, too" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1853343
<rbalint> (done)
<bdmurray> tdaitx:
<tdaitx> Short week: sick and out on Monday and Tuesday, recovering on Wednesday
<tdaitx> * fixed sbuild to run on focal (LP: #1852677 + one single line patch to use the right module when calling urlrequest)
<tdaitx> * dask autopkgtests
<tdaitx> * whoopsie upstream sync
<tdaitx> * testing apport O_PATH fix (LP: #1851806)
<tdaitx> Other:
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1852677 in sbuild-launchpad-chroot (Ubuntu) "sbuild focal python3 import errors" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1852677
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1851806 in apport (Ubuntu) "'module' object has no attribute 'O_PATH'" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1851806
<tdaitx> - starting the days a bit late while I try to shift my sleep back to normal
<tdaitx> (done)
<cyphermox> watching shim signing RT
<cyphermox> validating grub SRU for TPM error (LP: #1848892)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1848892 in grub2 (Ubuntu Eoan) ""error: Unknown TPM error." after upgrading to grub 2.04" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1848892
<cyphermox> validating grub SRU for EFI chainloader (LP: #1845289)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1845289 in grub2 (Ubuntu Eoan) "Grub EFI amd64 no longer start EFI/Microsoft/Boot/bootmgfw.efi" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1845289
<cyphermox> updating WALinuxAgent
<cyphermox> working on netplan NM plugin
<cyphermox> (done)
<bdmurray> vorlon: ?
<bdmurray> alright me then
<bdmurray> updated daisy code not to request amd64 cores that failed to retrace
<bdmurray> submitted RT, MP regarding updating daisy code for the above
<bdmurray> updated errors code fixing http://launchpad.net/bugs/1844694
<bdmurray> submitted RT, MP regarding updating errors code for the above
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1844694 in Errors "Using snap=True in the url doesn't work" [High,In progress]
<bdmurray> uploaded update-manager SRU for 16.04 fixing http://launchpad.net/bugs/1849004
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1849004 in update-manager (Ubuntu Xenial) "update-manager stopped loading update descriptions / changelog" [Medium,Fix committed]
<bdmurray> merged tdaitx's latest whoopsie security fix
<bdmurray> â done
<bdmurray> sil2100:
<sil2100> - Was off on Monday
<sil2100> - SRU reviews and releases
<sil2100> - SRU meeting
<sil2100> - Lots of kernel reviews
<sil2100> - Work and discussions regarding the Raspberry Pi support
<sil2100> - Modifying the examples page for netplan, adding a directly-connected IPv6 gateway example
<sil2100> - Tested the sanity-report for language-pack validation
<sil2100> - Helped out with some image building questions for OEM purposes
<sil2100> - Started the ubuntu-image release process
<sil2100> (done)
<cyphermox> sil2100: <3
<bdmurray> doko: its back to you now
<doko> - more fun with the python3.8 addition
<doko> - pytest now migrated, thanks to mwhudson
<doko> - python3-defaults down to one autopkg test regression
<doko> - helping out debian with the python3.8 start
<doko> - python3.7 update for eoan
<doko> - some python unrelated proposed-migration work
<doko> (done)
<bdmurray> #topic Release incoming bugs
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: Release incoming bugs
<bdmurray> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-ff-incoming-bug-tasks.html#foundations-bugs
<bdmurray> cyphermox: last week I think you said something about bug 1845529 am I remembering correctly?
<ubottu> bug 1845529 in bash-completion (Ubuntu) "bash completion shows `awk: line 18: function gensub never defined` on `umount /dev/<Tab>`" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1845529
<cyphermox> bdmurray: mea culpa, I said a lot of things about bugs last week and forgot to create the cards
<cyphermox> but maybe we should have a leader approve things to go on backlog anyway
<doko> just got the email that python3-defaults migrated \o/
<doko> mwhudson: ^^^
<bdmurray> cyphermox: I believe I cleaned that up when reviewing the minutes
<cyphermox> bdmurray: ack
<bdmurray> anyway have you done anything with bug 1845529?
<ubottu> bug 1845529 in bash-completion (Ubuntu) "bash completion shows `awk: line 18: function gensub never defined` on `umount /dev/<Tab>`" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1845529
<cyphermox> not yet, no
<bdmurray> okay, I think its actually an upstream issue to sort
<bdmurray> bug 1853164
<ubottu> bug 1853164 in systemd (Ubuntu) "systemd: /etc/dhcp/dhclient-enter-hooks.d/resolved error" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1853164
<rbalint> bdmurray, i think it is not a super important one
<rbalint> bdmurray, but we can take it
<bdmurray> sometimes its good to take patchs so we get new contributors regardless of the importance
<bdmurray> I'll card it then.
<cyphermox> it's a trivial and obviously correct fix too
<bdmurray> 2 software properties test failures
<bdmurray> actually it looks like coreycb is on both of these
<bdmurray> although he'd like a +1 on bug 1852772
<ubottu> bug 1852772 in software-properties (Ubuntu) "test_updates_interval fails on focal" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1852772
<bdmurray> cyphermox: could you have a quick look at that?
<bdmurray> sil2100: Have you gotten anywhere with bug 1848144?
<ubottu> bug 1848144 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "Screen reader isn't enabled on login screen or user session after installation" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1848144
<bdmurray> I guess we should card bug 1851346 too
<ubottu> bug 1851346 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "Ubuntu Studio 19.10 Installer Causes Wanted Programs to be Removed" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1851346
<bdmurray> are there any objections?
<bdmurray> alright I'll card that too
<sil2100> bdmurray: not yet!
<cyphermox> bdmurray: having a look at test_updates_interval bug; roger
<bdmurray> I still need to cleanup rls-ee but I don't see anything new
<bdmurray> http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-bb-incoming-bug-tasks.html
<bdmurray> cyphermox: bug 1848880?
<ubottu> bug 1848880 in debian-installer (Ubuntu) "Server 18.04.3 OEM Install option doesn't work" [Undecided,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1848880
<bdmurray> tdaitx: you are working on bug 1838740 right?
<ubottu> bug 1838740 in openjdk-lts (Ubuntu) "libjawt.so inconsistency lets JVM crash" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1838740
<tdaitx> bdmurray: yes, I will be =)
<bdmurray> okay lets target that then
<cyphermox> bdmurray: we had the OEM bug in lists before, and it went back to prioritized queue because we needed to reprioritize stuff
<bdmurray> cyphermox: ack
<cyphermox> well, either queue or backlog, but we definitely had a card for it
<bdmurray> #topic Team proposed-migration report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: Team proposed-migration report
<rbalint> the last comment in the OEM bug is that it now works for the reporter
<bdmurray> https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/proposed-migration/update_excuses_by_team.html#foundations-bugs
<bdmurray> so that report is out of date as python3-defaults has migrated correct?
<cyphermox> rbalint: yup, but let's be thorough I'll give it a spin here too
<bdmurray> Is there anything we need to hand out here?
<cyphermox> libheif is in progress for Security team (it's still the same MIR, being reviewed)
<rbalint> i pick python-colorama because why not :-)
<bdmurray> rbalint: thanks!
<bdmurray> python-setuptools?
<waveform> I can take the arm stuff? python-tinyrpc and theano?
<bdmurray> I may have time to look at that
<rbalint> python-tinyrpc seems to be broken in release
<rbalint> but still worth fixing probably
<waveform> hmm, actually both just look like they're missing python2 bits
<bdmurray> waveform: thanks
<bdmurray> I'll look at apport too
<cyphermox> I can do gawk
<bdmurray> cyphermox: thanks
<rbalint> i take dijitso and libcap2
<doko> all the python-* stuff there is about the python2 removal probably
<bdmurray> #topic AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: AOB
<bdmurray> 11/28 is a holiday in the US
<bdmurray> So can somebody else chair the meeting?
<bdmurray> cyphermox: ^^
<sil2100> If cyphermox can't, I can volunteer
<bdmurray> sil2100: its you then!
<cyphermox> ok
<bdmurray> I'm also out Wed and Fri of next week.
 * sil2100 will try not to forget
<bdmurray> anything else?
<sil2100> Nothing here
<juliank> I'm partially back starting monday
<juliank> well I'll be
<bdmurray> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Nov 21 16:45:06 2019 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2019/ubuntu-meeting.2019-11-21-16.01.moin.txt
<xnox> bah
<xnox> missed the meeting! will email in the update in a moment
