#ubuntu-classroom 2007-04-23
<nixternal> let the countdown begin!
<arruah> hi all ;)
<boom_> hello
<stevenrushing> was i asked to join here?
<stevenrushing> is there anyone here at all?
<stevenrushing> howdy howdy
<boom_> what time will any class start?
<dAndy> 15:00 GMT
<dAndy> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
<jjstwerff> #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<harrisony> ot
<harrisony> oops, xchat beat me! before i could press enter
<Demon012> hey everyone
<waleeds> hi
<AndrewB> !welcome | Demon012
<ubotu> Sorry, I don't know anything about welcome - try searching on http://bots.ubuntulinux.nl/factoids.cgi
<AndrewB> hmm..
<AndrewB> ok.. welcome Demon012
<Demon012> hi there andrew
<harrisony> !hi | Demon012
<ubotu> Demon012: Hi! Welcome to #ubuntu-classroom!
<AndrewB> harrisony: ;)
<harrisony> ta da!
<harrisony> :)
<Demon012> anyone here a developer? I wish to help advance ubuntu and don't really know where to start (I am a programmer (Have a BTEC National Diploma and HND in Software Development but am not used to open source software dev)
<harrisony> you get a hello from me and the bot, 2 for the price of one
<Demon012> need someone to show me which way to start running =)
<`23meg> Demon012, this is a good place to start --> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment
<Demon012> ty 23meg
<`23meg> np
<harrisony> Demon012: #ubuntu-devel
<Demon012> ty harris
<Demon012> was just typing that question rofl
<harrisony> lol
* Demon012 thinks harris is psychic
<harrisony> you know tab completes a name so you do say dem and then tab and it finishes the name
<Demon012> harrisony:
<Demon012> so it does ty
<harrisony> Lol!
<Demon012> haven't used IRC as much as I should do
<AndrewB> heh you may end up like me!
<Demon012> heh in what way? =)
<AndrewB> Well this is window 75 on my irc list..
<harrisony> :O
<Demon012> lol
<Demon012> seems you are a bit of an IRC fanatic then
<harrisony> AndrewB: you are
<Demon012> I haven't ever had anyone I know who I could get to use IRC
<Demon012> they are all MSN freaks =/
<Demon012> gotta try and convert em to jabber at some point
<harrisony> Demon012: Good Luck!!!!!! never worked for me
<Demon012> heh
<Demon012> I have been relatively successful at converting the people I have really tried to convert to ubuntu though (got 4 people converted so far)
<AndrewB> Demon012: thats great :) keep up the good work.
<Demon012> one converted from SuSe the rest from windows
<Demon012> (I think when the SuSe computer he setup on the college network took it over by becoming the primary DHCP server despite him not telling it to install a DHCP server kinda convinced him something was wrong with that distro lol)
<harrisony> lool
<harrisony> back in a few hours (need to get some sleep if i am correct the 1st UOW presentation is at 1am my time and i have school tomorrow :P)
* Tejo-Away away: [Away por inatividade aps 30 minutos]  [Desde: 08:48] 
* Tejo-Away voltou: [Away por inatividade aps 30 minutos]  [Durao: 5 minutos 27 segundos] 
<Tm_T> Tejo_B: I think you should keep public away off
<Tejo_B> i know, i've already turned it off
<Tejo_B> sorry about that
<Tm_T> thanks
<AndrewB> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/107648
<DexInsane> when does this session start?
<jono> DexInsane: two hours :)
<DexInsane> cheers!
<popey> jono: just enough time for you to write it eh?
<popey> :)
<jono> heh
<jono> :)
<popey> kettle
<popey> pot
<popey> :)
<DexInsane> its 1am here down in New Zealand.... will have to give it a miss.
<DexInsane> *sigh*
<popey> :(
<elkbuntu> DexInsane, new to Ubuntu?
<Sanne> DexInsane: as I understood, there will be session logs available.
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o elkbuntu]  by ChanServ
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-classroom:elkbuntu] : The Ubuntu Open Week fun commences at 15:00UTC TODAY! || See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek for the session times || https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules are the rules, please respect them || QUESTION: <insert question here> in #ubuntu-classroom-chat to ask questions || The first session will be Jono Bacon with "Joining the Ubuntu community"
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o elkbuntu]  by ChanServ
<popey> Sanne: yes logs will be https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ClassroomTranscripts I suspect
<popey> or thereabouts
<elkbuntu> popey, is the scribe bot thingie in here?
<popey> I would subscribe to the openweek page as they should be linked from there
<popey> the who with the what now?
<popey> scribes?
<elkbuntu> popey, the scribes team bot
<popey> no, dont think so
<popey> its really only used for meetings
<`23meg> it's Mootbot
<`23meg> it's here
<Sanne> popey: or here (just found it):
<Sanne> popey: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Logs
<elkbuntu> popey, ok then... ahh.. i see ausimage in the /who so we'll be fine :)
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o elkbuntu]  by ChanServ
* popey gets back to writing his openweek stuff :S
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-classroom:elkbuntu] : The Ubuntu Open Week fun commences at 15:00UTC TODAY! || See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek for the session times || https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules are the rules, please respect them || QUESTION: <insert question here> in #ubuntu-classroom-chat to ask questions.. chatting happens there too || The first session will be Jono Bacon with "Joining the Ubuntu community"
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o elkbuntu]  by ChanServ
<elkbuntu> jono, did i miss anything in the /topic?
<jono> looks good elkbuntu :)
<elkbuntu> w00t
<nalioth> pretty good for 3 in the morning, elkbuntu   :D
<dinda> elkbuntu - what is the character limit for each response?
<Hobbsee> ooh, open day :0
<elkbuntu> nalioth, not quite
<elkbuntu> nalioth, try back in 4 hours
<elkbuntu> dinda, um... not sure there's a limit
<dinda> I noticed things get cut off when I cut and paste text in here
<apokryphos> there is one per post, it's probably around 200 characters or something similar
<nalioth> dinda: if your copy contains a line break, that'll do it
<apokryphos> hm, no, 200 characters is very little. Probably a lot more 8)
<dinda> it seems to be about 3 lines, so 200 might be right
<dinda> I wonder if it's a server or client issue
<apokryphos> definitely server as well, but clients might put on a lower limit
<tintin> hello
<rohan> hello, tintin
<tintin> I tried Ubuntu 7.0.4, but I found that my Network card (BCM4401), is either unsupported, or that I have to do something extra to get things to work. Any ideas?
<rohan> damn, this 15.00 UTC is sooo inconvenient for IST people
<rohan> tintin: support related questions go to #ubuntu
<elkbuntu> rohan, as well as some of asia, australia and new zealand
<tintin> ok, thx. sorry
<nalioth> rohan: some folks do come here for support questions (they are unaware of Open Week)
<freeflying> rohan: bcm4401 can be used under dapper
<rohan> elkbuntu: yes :(
<rohan> freeflying: ok, please give the solution to tintin if possible
<freeflying> rohan: out-of-the-box
<rohan> oh
<elkbuntu> There is now approximately 1hr until the first session! This session will be Jono Bacon with "Joining the Ubuntu community" ... If you would like to comment, question or discuss this or any of the other sessions that will be held over the next 6 days, please join #ubuntu-classroom-chat. Thank You for coming and please enjoy the week :)
<rohan> :)
<jono> :)
<Rytmis> Go Jono!
<Belutz> elkbuntu, will this channel set as moderated?
<elkbuntu> Belutz, only if people are naughty
<jono> :)
<Belutz> ok :) i'll be a good student then
<Rytmis> Someone has replaced Jono with a bot that responds with a ":)" every time his name is mentioned :D
<Belutz> lol
<pochu> hehe
<elkbuntu> Rytmis, you didnt know? he *is* a bot ;)
<jono> :)
<Rytmis> x)
* Hobbsee pokes jono 
<jono> :)
<Hobbsee> yep.  definetly a bot
<Rytmis> I wonder if the first session is mostly "how to use smileys" :D
<Hobbsee> bottle-dancing bot.
<jono> Segmentation fault.
<pip> what have I missed ?
<Rytmis> Buffer overflow? :P
* Hobbsee reboots the jonobot
<Rytmis> (what with the bottles and all)
<pochu> [apport]  jono crashed with SigSegv in smiley()
<jono> hehe
<wifi^low^signall> kernel panic?
* Demon012 submits a bug report
<pip> I have heard that in hour ,the class will begin
* pochu marks the bug report as critical
<pochu> pip: yes, in one hour
<mc44> oh UTC
<mc44> stupid daylight savings
<wifi^low^signall> kopral jono :D
<pochu> @schedule Madrid
<ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Madrid: 24 Apr 22:00: Technical Board | 25 Apr 22:00: Edubuntu | 26 Apr 22:00: MOTU | 26 Apr 23:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 01 May 17:00: Kernel Team | 01 May 20:00: Mozilla Team
<pbx> @schedule Boston
<pochu> hmm, don't we have an schedule for the open week? :)
<Hobbsee> pochu: in the topic
<pbx> @schedule Montreal
<ubotu> Schedule for America/Montreal: 24 Apr 16:00: Technical Board | 25 Apr 16:00: Edubuntu | 26 Apr 16:00: MOTU | 26 Apr 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 01 May 11:00: Kernel Team | 01 May 14:00: Mozilla Team
<Tm_T> <3
<Halbran> @schedule So Paulo
<pochu> yeah, I know the wiki, but I mean here :)
<Hobbsee> no
<pbx> Halbran: That's Sao_Paulo
<pochu> there is also the fridge for the meetings, and we have ubotu ;)
<Halbran> @schedule Sao_Paulo
<ubotu> Schedule for America/Sao_Paulo: 24 Apr 17:00: Technical Board | 25 Apr 17:00: Edubuntu | 26 Apr 17:00: MOTU | 26 Apr 18:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 01 May 12:00: Kernel Team | 01 May 15:00: Mozilla Team
<Belutz> is Hobbsee is the famous "sexy lady" from australia?
<pochu> Hobbsee: ty
<Halbran> pbx: I saw it, thanks. :)
<Hobbsee> Belutz: uh, yes.
* Tm_T don't comment on that
<Rytmis> more like infamous :P
<Hobbsee> haha
<Belutz> Hobbsee, nice to know you :)
<Rytmis> Not that I'd go as far as to disagree (I value my life more than that)
<Hobbsee> Belutz: likewise :)
<Belutz> Hobbsee, what city in au do you live in?
<LostInJapan> @schedule Tokyo, please...
<Hobbsee> Belutz: sydney
<Belutz> Hobbsee, hey, i've been there on december 2005 :D
<rohan> @schedule Mumbai
<Hobbsee> :)
<Belutz> Hobbsee, i stayed in george street
<rohan> @schedule IST
<Hobbsee> nice :)
<Belutz> yea, my friend rent an apartment in summit aparment
<rohan> @schedule Calcutta
<ubotu> Schedule for Asia/Calcutta: 25 Apr 01:30: Technical Board | 26 Apr 01:30: Edubuntu | 27 Apr 01:30: MOTU | 27 Apr 02:30: Ubuntu Development Team | 01 May 20:30: Kernel Team | 01 May 23:30: Mozilla Team
<Belutz> i was attending my graduation in wollongong uni
<LostInJapan> @schedule Tokyo
<ubotu> Schedule for Asia/Tokyo: 25 Apr 05:00: Technical Board | 26 Apr 05:00: Edubuntu | 27 Apr 05:00: MOTU | 27 Apr 06:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 02 May 00:00: Kernel Team | 02 May 03:00: Mozilla Team
<rohan> this is what ,the open week schedule ?
<Hobbsee> no, it's not.
<rohan> then /
<Hobbsee> it's the meeting schedule
<rohan> ah ok :)
<Belutz> rohan, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
<elkbuntu> For those who have just joined, there is now approximately 45minutes until the first session! This session will be Jono Bacon with "Joining the Ubuntu community" ... If you would like to comment, question or discuss this or any of the other sessions that will be held over the next 6 days, please join #ubuntu-classroom-chat. Thank You for coming and please enjoy the week :)
<wifi^low^signall> hemmm
<_john> Hi Guys, the sessions will start in about 40 mins, right?
<ranf> hi
<rohan> _john: yes
<imbrandon> _john, yup
<_john> ok thanks
<zaro> xchat --url=irc://irc.freenode.net/#ubuntu-classroom-chat
<Toma-> This is a great idea :)
* slazh agrees
<Belutz> jsgotangco, hi
* jsgotangco waves at Belutz
<Belutz> jsgotangco, how are you?
<jsgotangco> Belutz: not bad, just chilling around and watch as the open week starts :)
* jsgotangco wonders if this channel will be +m in a few minutes
<PriceChild> jsgotangco, hopefully not... but we'll see :)
* Belutz hand over a cup of coffee for jsgotangco 
<PriceChild> jsgotangco, depends, it will be on marks sessions I'm sure.
<jsgotangco> yeah
<harrisony> its 12:48am in sydney and im cold, it better be worth it and i got school later
* Belutz waves at imtheface 
<PriceChild> !away > Monika|K
<Monika|K> I am not away.
<imtheface> hello Belutz
<imtheface> :)
<juliux> PriceChild, i think that was a normal nickchange not an away nick change
<PriceChild> juliux, I know sorry :)
<Monika|K> :)
* Phineas watches the attendees flood in
<rohan> is it started yet ?
<harrisony> rohan: just in time
<LoneShadow> rohan:3 more mins
* mc44 puts PriceChild's saftey catch on
<therealnanotube> rohan: 2 mins ;)
<PriceChild> mc44, woo needed that thanks :)
<rohan> :)
<LoneShadow> rohan: I thought you said 40mins before :P
* AlexExtreme says hi to rohan ;)
<sharms> incase Jono fails to show up, I have my presentation prepared: Making love: How, When and Where
<rohan> AlexExtreme: hi there :)
<rohan> sharms: yeah, i could assist you in demonstrating the practicals
<techno_freak> :0
<LoneShadow> should we ask everyone to join in #ubuntu-classroom-chat as well ?
<harrisony> sharms: we all need that!
<harrisony> LoneShadow: yes
<LoneShadow> Eeveryone to join in #ubuntu-classroom-chat as well :P
<harrisony> :P
<harrisony> Flood! lol
<jono> hi everyone!
<LoneShadow> err, remove the to :D
<imbrandon> heya jono
<devmodem> jono: hi!
<techno_freak> heya jono
<jono> :)
<jayteeuk> Hi jono.
<harrisony> jono: ZOMG!!! I SAW YOU ON IRC!
<luigi1015> hi
<LoneShadow> hi jono
<jono> right lets get this show on the road :)
<AlexExtreme> hey Jono
<harrisony> woo!
<gnomefreak> hi jono ;)
<ttthijs> hey jono
<Rytmis> mode +m might be in order :)
<metronux> hi jono
<rohan> jono: great :)
<jono> I will wait a few more minutes while the last few people come in :)
<h-chew> Hello Jono...
<adamant1988> brb
<jono> (times like this need AC/DC music playing in the background)
<juliux> hi jono
<jono> if you have AC/DC put some on :)
* gnomonic joins the crowd
<SurfingPenyu> Halo jono
<gnomonic> Hi Jono!
<Rytmis> I'm more in favor of Dark Tranquillity just now
<davmor2> jono metallica
<rohan> what's AC/DC ?
<jono> :)
<imbrandon> rohan, a band
<harrisony> rohan: :(
<AlexExtreme> rohan, it's a band
<rohan> imbrandon: ah, ok
* spr0k3t throws down for a favor of Dark Tranquillity
<jsgotangco> bah.. i have Deep Purple here lol
<harrisony> i have daft punk!
<rohan> pink floyd for me
<erstazi> Led Zeppelin here
<imbrandon> Limp Bizkit ftw
<erstazi> imbrandon: ah
* jussi01 puts some loud ac/dc on...
<jmchugh> I have some SOD this morning...
<PriceChild> Anyway shall we all let jono start it off? :)
<Rytmis> Metal \,,/,
<Ankur> Metallica for me
<harrisony> or pussycat dolls :P
<juliux> beethoven;)
<gnomonic> Playing Iron Maiden live at Donington right now.
<Watje> Dream Theater!
<Phineas> You all lose, Jimi Hendrix ftw
<techno_freak> omg!
<LoneShadow> rohan: are you a desi ?
<jsgotangco> judas priest
<Rytmis> (oh my god, I've created a monster)
<rohan> LoneShadow: indian, yes
<jono> riiiiiiiiiight!
<jono> lets get this going :)
<Tm_T> how about listening jono instead?
<rohan> Tm_T: lol
<LoneShadow> rohan: check out #ubuntu-india
<sharms> We need a +M, the first rule of dealing with a community is realizing how to shut them up
<rohan> sharms: that's insulting
<jono> so how is everyone doing today?!!
<imbrandon> great !!
<sharms> rohan: :)
<Demon012> good thankyou jono
* techno_freak rocking along with feisty ;)
<harrisony> jono: its 1am this better be good :)
<adamant1988> Great, Jono.  Yourself?
<ttthijs> excited!
<jono> everyone loving feisty?
<jayteeuk> Yep
<czambran> you bet
<Rytmis> Indeed!
<Ankur> Yaa
<Smegzor> we're not worthy!
<spr0k3t> za bombz it is
* `23meg is
<rohan> jono: yes, with a few gripes :)
<elkjaer> yeah.. rocks
<metronux> rocks man
<davmor2> hell yes
* AlexExtreme likes restricted-manager :)
<jayteeuk> Pleased and proud.
* adamant1988 is
<jsgotangco> gutsy is the new cool now
<therealnanotube> i'm still on dapper! long term support, woo! :)
<Belutz> jono, i will play manowar then
<h-chew> installed and running... no probs...
<jono> :)
<Demon012> loving fiesty so far
<jono> wicked
<davmor2> rocks louder than motorhead
<CheshireViking> feisty looks good, works well so far
<jono> My name is Jono Bacon and I am the Ubuntu Community Manager at Canonical.
<harrisony> i need some coke!
<tonytiger> I claim my 5
<jono> My job is to help run, organise and grow the incredible Ubuntu community. We have in my view, the finest free software community in the world, and this week is all about growing it :)
* rohan claps loudly :)
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o elkbuntu]  by ChanServ
* techno_freak fires some crackers :)
* harrisony hits rohan 
<jono> Ubuntu Open Week is all about bringing together experts in out amazing community and having them help you folks get started and become part of the Ubuntu community
<surf3rb0y> does any one know how i can log this chat with bitchx?
<Monika|K> Logs will be on the website.
<elkbuntu> All questions and discussion to #ubuntu-classroom-chat please.
<gnomefreak> everyone keep general chat in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<jono> this session is intended to introduce the week
<surf3rb0y> sorry and thanks
<jono> and to introduce the ubuntu community and discuss how you can get involved
<jono> the way ubuntu open week works is pretty simple
<jono> we have a bunch of IRC sessions that are being given by some of our communities finest leaders
<jono> each of these leaders will give their session in this channel, and general discussion and questions happens in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<jono> keep all chatter and questions to that channel - this channel should only be for the speaker to speak in
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o imbrandon]  by ChanServ
<jono> asking a question is simple
<jono> in #ubuntu-classroom-chat just prefix your question with the nick of the speaker and the word QUESTION
<jono> the speaker will then cut out the question and paste in here and answer it
<jono> in this particular session I am going to speak for a short while and then have a Q+A session where I can answer your questions
<jono> so, lets begin
<jono> the ubuntu community is amazing
<babangipan> ok bro
<jono> really, really frikken amazing!
* HalAWAY away: [Away por inatividade aps 60 minutos]  [Desde: 12:12] 
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+m]  by elkbuntu
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o jono]  by ChanServ
<jono> woo! :)
<jono> I am a firm believer that the ubuntu community is the finest example of free software community in the world
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o gnomefreak]  by ChanServ
<jono> we have a hugely diverse range of contributors, spread across the world doing incredible work
<jono> the vast majority of contributors work incredibly well together, and the community is a very warm and welcoming place
<jono> becoming part of our community not only means you get to contribute to an operating system that millions of people use, but you get to hang out and work with some of the kindest, most enthusastic people you will meet
<jono> the community has grown hugely, and in recent years it has become a real force in free software
<jono> just our loco teams as an example are growing at often 2000 new subscribers a amonth
<jono> this week we will be seeing lots of different parts of the community teaching
<jono> this includes teams such as:
<jono> MOTU - the team of ubercool heros who maintain Universe - the thousands of applications synced with Debian
<jono> everyone of those people needs to bought a beer for their incredible work
<jono> so if you like the idea of packaging - you can join MOTU, its a great place to start
<jono> if you like talking to people and spreading the word - loco teams are a great place to start
<jono> our loco teams are doing INCREDIBLE work
<jono> when I fly around, eating terrible airline food and visiting conferences, I meet many of teams, and their work is stunning
<jono> we have a loco in pretty much every country in the world - a worldwide network of cool people who do cool things
<jono> then of course we have Launchpad
<jono> we have a number of sessions on LP this week, dealing with bzr, translations and more
<jono> another interesting session is the ubuntu women session by Belinda
<jono> all of us want a community defined by equality - and I am particularly keen to see the ubuntu women project continue to do their good work
<jono> later today Ben Collins (who looks like Zak Wylde incidentally) will be talking about the kernel team
<jono> hardware support in ubuntu is pretty incredible, but the team needs help and Ben is the dude to talk to - be there if kernels do your thing
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o apokryphos]  by ChanServ
<jono> if you again like spreading the word, Jenda is doing some Marketing sessions - not only about marketing inside the Ubuntu community, but also outside the community
<jono> I am really keen to see our teams work together so for example we can feed the marketing team cool loco stories to push out to the wider world
<jono> if you don't use Ubuntu but use Kubuntu, Edubuntu or Xubuntu, we also have sessions on these distros too
<jono> we have seen huge amounts of interest in these derivatives, and long may they continue to kick arse and take names :)
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o AndrewB]  by ChanServ
<jono> and of course, there are many other sessions on an intro to packaging, patching packages, ubuntu studio and much more
<jono> its going to be a pretty incredible week and a great opportunity for everyone to become part of the rollercoaster that is th eubuntu community
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o LaserJock]  by ChanServ
<jono> just before I get to the questions, I am going to talk a little about my own work and the bigger community picture
<jono> since I started back in September, I have always been keen to be completely open about my work in the community and to always be an approachable person in the community
<jono> I always want to be someone you guys and girls can come to with any issues, questions or problems, and I am always keen to gather feedback on my work, both good and bad
<jono> I have a simple goal with my work:
<jono> make Ubuntu the finest example of free software community
<jono> and this is a much easier goal with such incredible people to work with
<jono> despite the good stuff, we do face challenges, problems and issues in the community
<jono> there are fights, arguments and quarrels
<jono> there are vicious rumours spread about bottle dancing and duck fetishes
<jono> to help with this we have some governance processes such as the community council and the code of conduct
<jono> and increasingly we are creating team councils such as the forums council and the IRC council
<jono> the goal here is to create good, sane processes that help everyone do their work easily and effectively
<jono> part of this challenge is scaling the community up
<jono> we are growing VERY quickly, and as we grow, existing systems and processes will be outgrown and need to be rethought
<jono> to achieve this we need to work together
<jono> a good example is the loco project
<jono> when I started with the loco project there were certain problems:
<jono>  * lack of documentation
<jono>  * disorganised information, scattered all over the place
<jono>  * some chunks of the world (such as the USA an Africa) woefully sparse with LoCo teams
<jono>  * no real direction
<jono> to resolve these issues the community worked together:
<jono>  * regular docs days to write new doc and better organise them
<jono>  * the USTeams project working to grow and mentor new US teams
<jono>  * regular meetings
<jono>  * real leaders in the community helping to regularly run and organise community activities
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o LaserJock]  by ChanServ
<jono> and now we have a very solid loco community that is working better than every
<jono> ever
<jono> my role is really to help put these processes in place - not to tell you all what to do, but to help us all work together to solve problems
<jono> the key thing is 'working together' - community is not the power of a singular but the combined power of the many, and to achieve this we need good, clear communication and a strong direction
<jono> so, we are at exciting times
<jono> there is still lots to do, and long road to travel, but together we can all do amazing things
<jono> if any of you are ever unsure, concerned or otherwise want to get in touch - my door is always open on IRC, and you can mail me at jono AT ubuntu DOT com
<jono> I also organise regular monthly community Q+A IRC sessions in which we can have open discussion about certain issues
<jono> right lets get on with questions :)
<elkbuntu> <Smegzor> jono QUESTION:  I'm interested in contributing as a programmer and will soon be upgrading to a new PC.  Will my ability to contribute be harmed if I decide to use ubuntu 64bit over 32bit
<jono> Smegzor: not at all, the arch specific bits are often kernel level - but it depends what you want to hack on - most applications (such as GUI apps) are largely unaffected by arch
<elkbuntu> <LoneShadow> QUESTION: Jono, Are basic GUI config programs packaged in Feisty for migrating users from windows. It will definitely help people who are uncomfortable in modifying xorg.conf
<jono> LoneShadow: I believe so - there is a migration tool in the feisty install, and there was work on a windows tool for migration too
<jono> LoneShadow: I don't know much more than that, unfortunatly
<elkbuntu> <alum> jono QUESTION: Sorry for  my english first :-(. I would like to be a new contributing programmer. I have knowledge of C and Perl and I'd like to help the great Ubuntu community. How can I start? I am interested in improving the GNOME for example.
<jono> alum: a great place to start is hacking on ubuntu specific applications and frontends - many of these apps are written in Python though
<jono> you could you your C skills for patching applications in Ubuntu and helping with packaging
<jono> alum: I recommend you ask on the developer mailing list and in #ubuntu-devel :)
<elkbuntu> <harrisony> jono:  QUESTION: is Xubuntu officially supported (like kubuntu and edubuntu)
<jono> harrisony: it is certainly officially recognised as a project
<jono> harrisony: afaik it is not supported by the canonical support office
<elkbuntu> <Smegzor> jono QUESTION:  I've heard lots of FUD from Microsoft about patent infringement in Linux.  Should we even care?  How hard is it to list all the patents MS have and check to see if Linux violate any?
<jono> Smegzor: this is a big subject, and I am not a lawyer
<jono> software patents are bad and bad for free software
<jono> but remember a few things:
<jono>  * only some countries recognise software patents
<jono>  * *if* software patents face a risk it is in upstream applications (such as the kernel, gnome, kde, firefox, openoffice.org etc) - and we have many companies who have invested in these applications and would no doubt defend a patent claim
<jono> software patents are always a risk for everyone, both closed and open, which is why the are bad, so support the anti software patent movement :)
<jono> personally I don't think we are going to face too many issues from Microsoft, they have a lot to lose
<jono> for being "the most interoperable software company in the world"
<imbrandon> ( small note: for those of you joining us late, please join #ubuntu-classroom-chat to ask questions , prefix your question with "jono: QUESTION <question here>" , thanks )
<elkbuntu> <alum> jono QUESTION: And finally I am interested in providing local support for Ubuntu in my country (Czech Republic/Europe), because there isn't any commercial support until now. How can I start in this way?
<jono> alum: if you want to provide commercial support, I recommend you join the Ubuntu Marketplace - see www.ubuntu.com for details
<elkbuntu> <Rytmis> Wait, how can Jono make this the finest community if it already is the finest? :
<jono> Rytmis: heh, we can always make fine things finer :)
<elkbuntu> <luigi1015> QUESTION: I'm a CS Masters degree graduate looking to do some programming on the side for Ubuntu, light work at first, what should I do? how should I start (considering i'm in the US but not near a loco)?
<imbrandon> *cough* https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU *cough*
<jono> luigi1015: I also recommend you contact the develop mailing list and ask how you can help - working on ubuntu frontend tools and patching packages is useful work too
<jono> yeah, speak to our friend and yours imbrandon about MOTU
<jono> the MOTU folks are screaming for new help - and they are officially "hella cool"
<elkbuntu> <dabaR> QUESTION: Did you write that whole speech thing you just gave us previously, or did you come up with it as you went
<jono> dabaR: heh, no thats just me and the way I talk
<jono> none of this was prepared
<elkbuntu> <spr0k3t> jono: QUESTION: With MS listed as owner to the internationally hated operating system, what will happen to the first Distribution that steals the market control from the monopoly?  If *buntu becomes as popular as such, what ways can I help curb the kneejerk reactions by the populous?
<jono> spr0k3t: we have a long way to go to unseat MS, and it won't happen overnight - the general populous will gradually get used to seeing Linux as a normality
<jono> but we all need to contribute and work together to unseat the beast
<jono> :)
<elkbuntu> <davmor2> QUESTION: with more and more users do you generally find you get more devs to cope with the increasing packages the new users demand?  Or is there just more pressure on the available devs?
<jono> davmor2: the community tends to grow in all directions - we get more users and more developers - all of our developers are overworked - no doubt there, but also remember that the strain is not particularly on developers (aside from bugfixing) but also on support - this is why loco teams, #ubuntu and the ubuntuforums also need help from contributors
<elkbuntu> <chuckf> QUESTION: In setting up the Maryland group I've had trouble getting resources...maryland.ubuntu-us.org and lists.ubuntu.org addresses in particular. What is being done to resolve things like that for new loco teams?
<jono> chuckf: I am working on this at the moment, I will be dealing with loco list requests and also working on ways to speed up domain registration, rest assured, I am onto it
<elkbuntu> <therealnanotube> jono QUESTION: about a year ago, the "answerer to questioner" ratio on the ubuntu forums was much higher than it is today. it seems that nowadays a lot more threads go by without getting resolved. this is of course due to the growth in the number of new ubuntu users. but how would we deal with this and maintain the quality of help on the forums?
<jono> therealnanotube: I think we need to encourage more people to join the forums community - answering questions is a great way to contribute to ubuntu - I think it would be good to have a campaign to encourage more forums contributors
<elkbuntu> <Belutz> QUESTION: is it necessary for one to be an ubuntu member? what if there are some people in loco who contribute a lot but never sign the CoC and never apply for ubuntu membe
<jono> Belutz: nope, membership is particularly useful for developers who need access to certain machines - for locos its less essential
<elkbuntu> <Monika|K> jono QUESTION: Some members of our team (Loco team in development) see no use in signing the CoC. What would you answer them?
<jono> Monika|K: I would encourage everyone to at least understand and read the CoC if they don't sign it - signing it is a formality - the message behind it is the key thing
<elkbuntu> <Demon012> jono QUESTION: Where should you start looking when you want to starting helping development with ubuntu besides https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopers
<jono> Demon012: look to the teams you are interested in contributing, ask in #ubuntu-devel in #ubuntu and ask on the ubuntu forums - if all else fails, mail me :)
<elkbuntu> <adamant1988> jono QUESTION:  I think a lot of us are really hoping to become Ubuntu members, but the page concerning membership is very vague as to what is needed to be a member.  Could you provide a clarification?
<jono> adamant1988: to become a member you just need a track record of doing "good stuff" - if you have worked in the community, have participated in discussions, done real work, you can become a member - I do think the docs for membership do need improving though to help resolve these uncertainties
<elkbuntu> <Demon012> jono QUESTION: Which is the preferred programming language for development for Ubuntu?
<jono> Demon012: we love Python
<elkbuntu> <airlo> jono QUESTION : When developers cross from another distro to Ubuntu, does this create tensions within the wider Linux community? How can existing developers help out with Ubuntu, without making it appear that they've become "disloyal" to other distros (and without making it appear that Ubuntu is headhunting/'stealing' talent away from other projects)?
<jono> airlo: this is the difference between distro level and upsteam work - upstream hackers can work on software that any distro can use, when developers move to a new distro and hack on it, generally there is no tension - its just a choice of project to work on
<elkbuntu> <jayteeuk> jono: QUESTION What work has been/is being done with companies such as IBM, Oracle to encourage them to help improve Ubuntu and also certify their products for use on Ubuntu?
<jono> jayteeuk: our business dept is working with those companies, I have no idea - I just do community stuff
<elkbuntu> <deniz_ogut> QUESTION: What can you say about the relation of Ubuntu community with other related bodies? For example if I want to translate some gnome application this counts for both Ubuntu and GNOME circles in my country. Or software patents are a proslem of both Ubuntu and gnu.org... and so on. what are the coordination mechanisms and which addresss do you advice to apply in such scenarios: something having to do with both Ubuntu
<elkbuntu> and other circl
<jono> deniz_ogut: I am hoping to improve relations between ubuntu and other communities - we need to remember we are all on the same team - but some things naturally compete on the same team - this is a big question and one that I am looking to solve in different ways - better communication being the main solution
<elkbuntu> <kNo`> QUESTION: do you often dream about killing cats you wanted to herd?
<jono> kNo`: hah, no, I love cats, and love herding them :)
<elkbuntu> <jussi01> jono Question: whats happening on the CNR front?
<jono> jussi01: I am not working on that, but I think its planned for gutsy
<elkbuntu> <Rytmis> jono: QUESTION Are there any plans to lower the threshold for contributing, ie. writing instructions on how to get started with, say, fixing a bug?
<jono> Rytmis: always, things such as bitesize tasks in motu are helping with this, the key thing here is better docs, better websites and regular meetings - I am encouraging all teams to do this
<jono> MOTU are doing a good job here
<elkbuntu> <chuckf> jono: QUESTION How productive is it to spend time bashing MS rather than simply advancing Ubuntu/Linux/FreeSoftware?
<jono> chuckf: not productive at all - FUD is bad, no matter who is comes from
<jono> just say no!
<elkbuntu> <chuckf> jono: QUESTION How can unapproved teams get resources such as CDs from Shipit?
<jono> chuckf: right now only approved teams can get feisty CDs - so the solution is to get approved :)
<elkbuntu> <elkjaer> QUESTION: Do you have any people working on the GPL java code in Ubuntu? Not just packaging the stuff. I see several things that could be improved. For instance sound playback where the java VM currently hijacks your sound device.
<jono> elkjaer: canonical does not pay developers to work on upstream code, so I doubt it - not sure if community work is going on though
<elkbuntu> <Demon012> jono QUESTION: What documentation should you produce when developing software for Ubuntu and where should it be posted? (Examples of documentation: Pseudo Code, UML Diagrams)
<jono> Demon012: you should fully document the use of your app, well commented code is nice and structural diagrams are nice too - its best to ask a developer this question
<elkbuntu> <pbx> jono QUESTION: Ubuntu has had a remarkable rise over the past couple years. What possibilities do you see in its future for unifying the fragmented world of "competing" Linux distros
<jono> pbx: ubuntu will continue to grow and expand and I think we will continue to lead our community forward - I hope distros can unite on upstream levels particularly
<jono> its a tough question though, and no simple answer
<jono> its a competitive world in which we share too
<jono> right
<elkbuntu> <nealmcb> QUESTION: when will launchpad karma include wiki work, forum posts, etc?
<jono> nealmcb: ask mrevell that :)
<jono> ok thats abut it
<jono> about it
<jono> sorry I could not answer all the questions in time
<jono> two things to remember:
<jono>  * I am running a community Q+A session at 3pm UTC on wednesday - thats a full hour of Q+A - come and ask your questions there
<jono>  * also, see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TheFunkyFeistyCompetition - lets get some cool photos in the competition :)
<jono> thanks everyone!! have a great week!! :)
<jono> and now, my friend and yours, the legend, the man, LaserJock :)
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o LaserJock]  by ChanServ
<LaserJock> jono: thanks much
<jono> LaserJock: rock on dude :)
<LaserJock> hehe, that's a hard act to follow folks
<LaserJock> Hello everyone, my name is Jordan Mantha and I'm a PhD Physical Chemistry student and a voluteer developer in Ubuntu.
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o PriceChild]  by ChanServ
<LaserJock> Today we are going take a brief journey through packaging, which is about the most important aspect of a Linux distro. Ubuntu's sucess in the long run is largely dependent on the quality, updatedness, and availability of software in it's repositories. To get there requires lots of help from people like you and I in the community who want to give back to the distro that has given us much.
<LaserJock> I'd like to start by saying that packaging can be frustrating at times, and a little confusing, but give it some effort and patience and you'll be teaching a couple hundred people Packaging 101 :-)
<LaserJock> You don't need to be a programmer or super cool rockstar like Jono. ;-)
<LaserJock> In the time that I have I really can't give a good in-depth tutorial on packaging. What I'd like to do instead is give you a overview of packaging for Ubuntu, point you to some further reading, and get you fired up about joining in and contributing to Ubuntu packages. And of course answer a bunch of questions.
<LaserJock> ok, well thus ends my prepepared part ;-)
<LaserJock> One of the first things to be aware of in Ubuntu packaging is that we deal primarily with source packages
<LaserJock> source packages are what gets uploaded to the Ubuntu build machines
<LaserJock> a diff to a source package is what somebody uploading a fix for you will want to see
<LaserJock> so the question then is "what the heck is a source package and where do I get it?"
<LaserJock> well a source package is really made up of 2-3 files
<LaserJock> in what's call a non-native package there are 3 files
<LaserJock> 1) a .dsc file that is a description of the source package and also has checksums of the other source package files
<LaserJock> 2) a .orig.tar.gz file which is the tarball that you get from the upstream authors
<LaserJock> we want to keep the .orig.tar.gz as pure as possible
<LaserJock> so we have:
<LaserJock> 3) .tar.gz file which is a diff to the .orig.tar.gz which holds all the modifications to the source
<LaserJock> including the packaging specific files and any patches we may need
<LaserJock> Adri2000: ah thanks, I was thinking ahead of myself
<LaserJock> 3) is a diff.gz file
<LaserJock> a native package is one that is specific to the distro
<LaserJock> and doesn't really exist outside of it
<LaserJock> in that case preservation of a original tarball isn't needed
<LaserJock> so there are just 2 files, the .dsc and a tar.gz file that holds all the source
<LaserJock> ok, any questions so far?
<LaserJock>  LaserJock: I filed a bug against librsvg2-2 a good while ago. the folks at gnome even say in the place librsvg lives in the ftp archives "DO NOT USE 2.16.0" yet its still not updated to 2.16.1... what gives? do some packages slip thru the update net?
<LaserJock> well, things can certainly fall through the cracks at times
<LaserJock> we rely (especially in Universe) on Debian quite a bit.
<LaserJock> and given there are roughly 50-80 developers for ~15,000+ packages it can be difficult to keep up
<LaserJock>  QUESTION: When we create a patch how can we get the result into the current Ubuntu Release's Repositories or is that not possible?
<LaserJock> if you mean a stable release (like Edgy of Feisty) then that requires a Stable Release Update (SR)
<LaserJock> *SRU
<LaserJock>  QUESTION: when in the release cycle is the best time to get a new package in?
<LaserJock> after the repos have opened
<LaserJock> before the Feature Freeze(Main) or NewPackages Freeze (Universe)
<LaserJock> QUESTION: could you give a brief description of what to do to get a package from say, feisty, into the backports repository for dapper?
<LaserJock> You'll want to file a bug with the backports team
<LaserJock> QUESTION: If I wanted to make a change to a package, I have hear the preferred format is "debdiff".  What is this?
<PriceChild> You could also ask for help with filing the bug in the backports forum on ubuntuforums.org where jdong should help :)
<LaserJock> a debdiff is a somewhat special diff that shows the difference between source packages
<LaserJock> the tool used is niftily called debdiff
<LaserJock> QUESTION: If a package I have installed in one version has broken dependencies after an upgrade, I report a bug in Launchpad, then how do I go about getting it fixed or submitting a fix?
<LaserJock> You'll want to grab the source package (apt-get source <packagename>) and fix the dependencies in debian/control
<LaserJock> submit a debdiff of those changes to the bug report
<LaserJock>  QUESTION: if I fix a bug in a package, when should I do a straight debdiff and when should I instead do a proper patch using some patch system?
<LaserJock> good questoin
<LaserJock> if you feel your patch is complete and won't take any additional work by a dev do it as a debdiff
<LaserJock> you'll get credit and experience
<LaserJock> if you are just providing a patch to one file and it may need more work or you don't want to go to all the trouble of preparing a new source package and debdiff'ing then just submit a patch
<LaserJock> QUESTION: Is there a possibility of getting a package in for a particular Ubuntu Version well after release? Say for two cases. A "new" addition or an update to an already existing package.
<LaserJock> once a release is "released" it is frozen
<LaserJock> we don't include new packages (unless by rare exception to -updates repos)
<LaserJock> updates are done several ways
<LaserJock> -updates is a repo for important updates
<LaserJock> -security is for security fixes
<LaserJock> -backports is for getting newer versions in (from the current development release)
<LaserJock> QUESTION : If a package (lower version than upstream) is found to have a serious security vulnerability, do you prefer to upgrade to the new package version, or do you apply hotfixes to the old package?
<LaserJock> if it's for a stable release we backport the fix to the existing version
<LaserJock> QUESTION: Is there anything in the package files that give a URL to where the package's source was downloaded from? If, for example, I want to know where you get the source for desktop-effects from, is there anything in the .diff.gz or .dsc files that tell me this?
<LaserJock> the debian/copyright files should say where the source was downloaded from
<LaserJock>  QUESTION: are there any licenses that we should be wary of when thinking of packaging a piece of software?  I am considering packaging software licensed under the mozilla public license.
<LaserJock> well, the best advice I can give is to look at the Debian Free Software Guidelines (DFSG) and the debian-legal mailing list
<LaserJock> if it's "free" enough for Debian it'll be free enough for Ubuntu
<LaserJock> QUESTION: How are end users assured that the packages they're installing in Ubuntu are authentic/untampered from upstream versions (especially if a developer becomes victim to a hacker who changes code inside a package they're making... are there safeguards in place?)
<LaserJock> yes, there are safeguards in place
<LaserJock> the first is limiting who can upload a package
<LaserJock> only people in the ubuntu-dev team on launchpad can upload to Ubuntu
<LaserJock> that's roughly 80 people
<LaserJock> broken up into MOTUs (Universe/Multiverse devs) and core-devs (Main and Restricted)
<AndrewB> Could everybody please note that this channel is +m and thus you can't speak. Please join #ubuntu-classroom-chat for discussion and questions. Thanks
<LaserJock> to become either of those you need to have a gpg encryption key that is "signed" by a Debian or Ubuntu developer
<LaserJock> or somebody in the "strong set"
<LaserJock> in order to sign somebodies key you must physically meet them and check their ID
<LaserJock> know, that is all to prove you are who you say you are
<LaserJock> to prevent hackers devs keep very careful track of their gpg key
<LaserJock> and have revocation certificates that if their gpg was for some reason compromised they can revoke it and render it useless
<LaserJock> <neuro_> QUESTION: How different is packaging for Ubuntu from Debian?
<LaserJock> it depends on the package :-)
<LaserJock> you can spot a package Ubuntu has messed around with by a "ubuntu" in the version
<LaserJock> roughly 4,000 packages in Main and 4,000 packages in Universe
<LaserJock> in terms of actual packaging, we really don't differ
<LaserJock> we do things like have different python or gcc versions
<LaserJock> but as far as actually 'how to package' they are equivalent
<LaserJock> QUESTION: Suppose I have a package that's neither in ubuntu or debian repos, would I be best sending it to debian, ubuntu or both?  Do all packages in debian repos go through to ubuntu?
<LaserJock> excellent question
<LaserJock> It's honestly best to send a package to Debian first
<LaserJock> since Ubuntu syncs it's packages from Debian
<LaserJock> more people benefit from your work if it gets to Debian
<LaserJock> that said, you can certainly develop your package and get feedback from the Ubuntu devs
<LaserJock> and then finally submit it to Debian
<LaserJock> QUESTION: how time consuming is packaging for newbies?  I'd really like to contribute and even have a package(s) in mind (Kadu from kadu.net), but I'm kinda affraid of taking the responsibility and then failing due to lack of time to do it properly.
<LaserJock> well, that's a bit of the joy of Ubuntu
<LaserJock> we use a team maintenance model
<LaserJock> so you aren't necessarily committing to taking care of the package for all time
<LaserJock> on the other hand, we do like people to stick around and help out :-)
<LaserJock>  QUESTION:  Can anyone submit updates to packages or do they have to coordinate with a maintainer before submitting anything?  I know nothing yet about the processes involved in contributing.
<LaserJock> anyone can contribute
<LaserJock> what happens is that if you aren't a developer you'll need an additional step of sponsorship
<LaserJock> in both Main and Universe we have sponsorship teams set up
<LaserJock> so for instance, in Universe, you can attache a debdiff to a bug report
<LaserJock> then subscribe the ubuntu-universe-sponsors team
<LaserJock> and they'll look it over and if it's ok they'll upload it for you
<LaserJock> QUESTION: A previous update to the X server infamously caused problems for a large number of users. There was talk about improving the package release system to prevent broken packages from being released. Could you please update us on what changes (if any) have been made in light of the past?
<LaserJock> lots
<LaserJock> we've instituted a -proposed repo
<LaserJock> where devs upload their packages for testing before they go to -updates
<LaserJock> we also instituted Stable Release Update policies
<LaserJock> that govern how an update gets done and tested
<LaserJock>  Suppose that i've found a bug into upstream and i've created a patch. I need to submit that to original author as well as ubuntu mantainers? What is the optimal update process?
<LaserJock> it kind of depends on how fast the development of the upstream is
<LaserJock> it's always awesome to send stuff upstream
<LaserJock> so more people can get the fix
<LaserJock> but sometimes it takes quite some time to for the fix to trickle back down to us
<LaserJock> so you might want to do both if it's something important
<LaserJock> usually you can sort of coordinate with the Ubuntu devs through a bug report
<LaserJock>  QUESTION: (sorry if this has been covered its 2:30am and im eating yesterdays lunch and half asleep) Say if there is a program we want in the ubuntu repository does it need to go past someone to say yes include it or no we dont need it (say if you make the deb package yourself  not need someone else to do)
<LaserJock> in Universe it needs to be approved by 2 MOTUs before it is uploaded
<LaserJock> in Main it needs to have already existed in Universe and go through a Main Inclusion Report
<LaserJock> QUESTION: how do you read the version numbers eg. 1.01.6~ubuntu4
<LaserJock> well, in general it goes like this:
<LaserJock> <upstream version>-<debian revision>ubuntu<ubuntu revision>
<LaserJock> so in the case of 1.2-3ubuntu4
<LaserJock> 1.2 is the software version
<LaserJock> 3 is the Debian revision (which is 0 if it isn't in debian)
<LaserJock> and 4 is the ubuntu revision
<LaserJock> sometimes you'll see things like ~ or +
<LaserJock> those are ways of making sure that a version is lower or higher than another version
<LaserJock> QUESTION : can megapackages be build , for example the full works for multi media , or webdevelopers , or what ever comes to mind...( megapackage being a set of programs to be installed in one go )
<LaserJock> you can use metapackages, which are basically empty packages that just depend on all the other packages that you want
<LaserJock> ubuntu-desktop is like that
<LaserJock> QUESTION: Thank you for your earlier comments regarding security/assurance of packages being uploaded by developers. Could you please clarify if there are any requirements in place to only allow new updates to the repositories after 2 or more people have verified a compiled package and signed off on it?
<LaserJock> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates
<LaserJock> QUESTION: Where should you check if a package has already been made or is already being made before you start packaging something yourself?
<LaserJock> you can do an apt-cache search
<LaserJock> or packages.ubuntu.com
<LaserJock> we also have a new tag in Launchpad, "needs-packaging"
<LaserJock> http://www.debian.org/devel/wnpp/ for Debian
<LaserJock> QUESTION: I've read that when an upstream source already contains a debian dir, I should ask them to remove it. Why that?
<LaserJock> well, 2 reasons
<LaserJock> 1) it makes maintenance harder
<LaserJock> because it turns it into a native package
<LaserJock> and every time you have a change in the packaging (new dep or something) you have to have a new upstream release
<LaserJock> 2) many upstreams don't provide packaging that's suitable for Debian/Ubuntu
<LaserJock> QUESTION:REVU- tell me more about it. all i know is its for beginner package makers and thats all
<LaserJock> it's the MOTUs system for reviewing packages (and getting the 2 votes needed to enter Universe)
<LaserJock> it was written by MOTUs
<LaserJock> there's a wiki page that has more info: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Packages/REVU
<LaserJock>  QUESTION: How do we go about getting sponsored by a member of one of the sponsorship teams? And how generally should we start helping with packaging?
<LaserJock> the best way is to hop on #ubuntu-motu
<LaserJock> we love to have people willing to learn and willing to help
<LaserJock> QUESTION: In preparing packages for Ubuntu, do you ever consult with developers of other distributions (Gentoo, Redhat, etc) and work collaboratively to solve issues? Or are package maintainers fairly independent?
<LaserJock> it really depends on the software
<LaserJock> I think we generally like to be as collaborative as we can
<LaserJock> but it's fairly difficult with non-Debian based systems because our packaging is different
<LaserJock> I think the best place to go if it's more than just an Ubuntu/Debian issue is the upstream developers themselves
<LaserJock>  QUESTION: "It's honestly best to send a package to Debian first." How long would it usually take for a small, straight-forward package to be accepted?
<LaserJock> that can really vary
<LaserJock> my first package to Debian was uploaded in 2 days
<LaserJock> that was after I already had it go through REVU so it didn't need much additional work
<LaserJock> the debian-mentors mailing list and IRC channel is great for that
<LaserJock> QUESTION: Are there any server-side statistics (not collected from clients who enable the package reporting feature) for how many times each package is downloaded in a time period?
<LaserJock> not that I know of
<LaserJock> Canonical probably would know
<LaserJock> ok, I'm going to end the vast Q&A there
<LaserJock> and want to address packaging real quick :-)
<LaserJock> obviously I don't have time to give you a tutorial now
<LaserJock> but we have many resources to help you learn
<LaserJock> I taught a session like this for the MOTU School: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/School/PackagingBasics
<LaserJock> I also maintain the Ubuntu Packaging Guide: http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/packagingguide/C/index.html
<LaserJock> there are some other good resource on that MOTU School wiki page
<LaserJock> basically, grab a source package
<LaserJock> make sure you have source repos enabled
<LaserJock> and apt-get source <packagename>
<LaserJock> then poke around in debian/
<LaserJock> the debian/ directory is where all the packaging info is
<LaserJock> it contains the dependencies and control information (debian/control)
<LaserJock> copyright information (debian/copyright)
<LaserJock> changelog (debian/changelog who would have guessed0
<LaserJock> and very importantly the "instructions" needed to build the package into a .deb (debian/rules)
<LaserJock> harrisony: thanks for all the good questions ;-)
<LaserJock> one of my packages is plotdrop
<LaserJock> it's fairly easy
<LaserJock> well, basically we didn't get anything done that I wanted to :-)
<LaserJock> but we had fun anyway
<LaserJock> I'd really encourage everyone that's interested in learning more to hop on #ubuntu-motu
<LaserJock> and I'll be here again, same time, on Wednesday where I'll give a better tutorial
<gnomefreak> LaserJock: good session
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o BjornT]  by PriceChild
<LaserJock> thanks for coming, thanks for the questions, I'm done
<PriceChild> Thanks LaserJock :)
<BjornT> ok, let's get started with the next session then.
<BjornT> I'm Bjorn Tillenius, the lead developer for the bug tracking part of Launchpad, and I'll be your host for this session about triaging bugs with Launchpad.
<BjornT> For those of you that don't already know, Launchpad (https://launchpad.net) is a web application for managing software projects, i.e. it provides bug tracking, feature tracking, code hosting, and more.
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-classroom:PriceChild] : The Ubuntu Open Week fun commences at 15:00UTC TODAY! || See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek for the session times || https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules are the rules, please respect them || QUESTION: <insert question here> in #ubuntu-classroom-chat to ask questions.. chatting happens there too || Triaging Bugs With Launchpad - Bjorn Tillenius
<BjornT> A lot more could be said about Launchpad, so you should stay for the next session, where mrevell will give you an excellent introduction to Launchpad.
<BjornT> Now, let's talk about getting started with triaging bug.
<BjornT> Triaging bugs is a great way of getting involved with a project. It doesn't require that you know how to code, and pretty much anyone can learn how do it.
<BjornT> Doing this session actually made me realize that it can be quite hard to know how to get involved with triaging bugs, but don't let that put you off!
<BjornT> If you just contact the right people, they will most of the time be happy that you want to help, since that can improve the experience for their bug reporters.
<BjornT> As a bug reporter, you want that someone cares about your bug report, so having bug triagers that can reply promptly to new bug reports is a great asset for a project.
<BjornT> By triaging bugs you'll also help the developers focus more on bug fixing, and less on talking.
<BjornT> There are a few different ways you can triage bugs; some require more knowledge and authority than the others.
<BjornT> I'd say the two most common meanings of triaging are:
<BjornT>     - making sure that the bug report contains enough information
<BjornT>     - prioritize the bug
<BjornT> The latter can be quite difficult to do, and it requires that you are trusted by the project, so i'll be concentrating on the first point, which basically means to make the bug report good enough so that more experienced people can prioritize and fix the bug.
<BjornT> So, what kind of information should the bug report contain?
<BjornT> Basically it should contain enough information so that someone could reproduce the bug, and it should also clearly state what the actual bugs is.
<BjornT> i.e., it should contain the answers to the following questions:
<BjornT>     - what did you do?
<BjornT>     - what happened?
<BjornT>     - what did you expect to happen?
<BjornT> But this is not the only information that is needed;  each project have their set of requirements and guidelines as to what exactly a bug report should contain.
<BjornT> So before starting to triage bugs for a project, you should get in contact with the people that are dealing with bugs within the project.
<BjornT> Your best bet is usually to look at who's the designated "Bug Contact"
<BjornT> of the project, find them on IRC or drop them an e-mail.
<BjornT> Since this is *Ubuntu* Open Week, let's take Ubuntu as an example. Note that most of the things I will talk about here apply to any project using Launchpad, not just Ubuntu.
<BjornT> If you look at https://launchpad.net/ubuntu you can see that the 'Ubuntu Bugs' team is the bug contact. If you follow that link to https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-bugs, you can see that you shouldn't join that team, though!
<BjornT> The ubuntu-bugs team is used mostly to get all the bug notifications sent to a mailing list.
<BjornT> On the same page you can see that the Ubuntu QA Team is listed as the owner, so if you'd follow that link you'd be pointed to the Ubuntu BugSquad, which is that team that deals with bugs in Ubuntu.
<BjornT> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugSquad contains all information you need to join the team and start triaging Ubuntu bugs. Don't be shy, they will appreciate any help you can give them. :) They usually hang out in #ubuntu-bugs here on freenode.
<BjornT> But don't go off reading all that information just yet, though, since it would take most of this session. Instead I will talk a bit about triaging bugs here.
<BjornT> So, now that we know who we should talk to about triaging bugs, we can talk about picking which bugs to triage.
<BjornT> If you look at https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu you can see that there's a great deal of Unconfirmed bugs. It's those bugs that you want to turn to either Confirmed or Rejected.
<BjornT> Confirmed basically means that the bug report contains enough information for someone to fix the bug, and Rejected means that it's not really a bug, for example, it could be a support request disguised as a bug report.
<BjornT> When you triage bugs, you start to have a conversation with the bug reporter. This is important work, since it gives the bug reporter someone to talk to, and it shows him that someone does care about his bug report.
<BjornT> Be sure to be polite to the reporter, though :), we don't want him to get a bad impression of the community.
<BjornT> In order to avoid more than one people triage the same bug, it's a good idea to assign the bug you want to triage to yourself. This gives you a list of bugs you need to pay extra attention to at https://launchpad.net/people/+me/+assignedbugs.
<BjornT> It also makes it easier for triager to find bugs you want to triage, since you can exclude bugs that are assigned to someone.
<BjornT> let's stop for some questions here
<BjornT> < spr0k3t> BjornT: QUESTION: if a bug is rejected by the person triaging,. does it get less priority or just left for the next person. triaging?
<BjornT> If you mark a bug as Rejected, no one will look at the bug again, so only do so if you're sure that it's not a bug.
<BjornT> When a bug is rejected, an e-mail notification will be sent, though, so people will see that the bug gets rejected.
<BjornT> BjornT: QUESTION many people don't know the literal meaning of. triaging. could you please explain that first ?
<BjornT> This question is actually quite hard to answer :)
<BjornT> As someone of you already noted, "triage" is an unusual word.
<BjornT> It doesn't have a useful meaning in the real world; I'm not sure why we say that you "triage" bugs.
<BjornT> But in a bug context, it means to make sure that the bug contains enought information, and that it gets directed to the right people that will fix the bug.
<BjornT> The thing is that mostly "triage" means to prioritize, while here it also means to make sure that the bug is a good bug report.
<BjornT> < micahcowan> QUESTION: The "bug contact" could just be anyone who. happened to subscribe to bug changes for that particular. bug, right? That is, it's not guaranteed that the Bug. Contact is particularly knowledgeable on that package?
<BjornT> There are different kind of bug contacts.
<BjornT> For Ubuntu, there's one global bug contact for the whole distribution, and also any number of bug contacts for each source package.
<LaserJock> BjornT: dictionary definition:
<LaserJock> 1.	the process of sorting victims, as of a battle or disaster, to determine medical priority in order to increase the number of survivors.2.	the determination of priorities for action in an emergency.
<LaserJock> for triage, sorry for the interruption
<BjornT> Not anyone can become a distribution bug contact, but anyone can become a source package bug contact, which is a great way of getting e-mail notifications for bugs.
<BjornT> For other projects in Launchpad, not anyone can become a bug contact.
<BjornT> Ok, let's continue with how to find bugs to triage.
<BjornT> To find bugs to triage, you can go back to https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu and click on the "Advanced search" link, which will allow you to filter the bug listing in a great number of ways.
<BjornT> In Ubuntu, bugs are considered untriaged if they are Unconfirmed, have an Undecided importance, and doesn't have an assignee.
<BjornT> So you should make sure that no other statuses or importances are checked, as well as making sure that "Nobody" is specified as the assignee.
<BjornT> After you've done this and clicked on "Search", you probably want to bookmark that page.
<BjornT> When you have the list of bugs, it's a good idea to open each bug you want to triage into a new browser tab. That makes it easier to get back to the bug listing after you're done with the bug.
<BjornT> Now, let's talk about how you actually triage a bug report that you've found.
<BjornT> First, you should read through the bug report and make sure that you understand what the bug report is about. If it's unclear, ask the reporter to clarify.
<BjornT> When you ask the reporter something, you should set the status to "Needs Info", so that the reporter (and you) knows that action is required from him.
<BjornT> Sometimes the bug reporter doesn't respond, so if a bug in "Needs Info" hasn't gotten a reply for a while, it's usally a good idea to Reject the bug, since it can't be fixed without knowing more about the problem.
<BjornT> Now, it might not be completely obvious how to change a bug's status, so I'll better tell you how to do it :).
<BjornT> You change the status of the bug by clicking on the package name (e.g.  "amule (Ubuntu)"), which will expand the edit form, where you can edit things like status, assignee, and package name, and you can also leave a comment while editing.
<BjornT> Anyone is allowed to edit the status of a bug, you don't need any special privileges.
<BjornT> Now, let's get back to actually triaging the bug.
<BjornT> There are a number of different things you can to do. A good first step is to try to reproduce the bug. If you don't know what steps are necessary, you should ask the bug reporter for more information.
<BjornT> Now, after he's given all the information, it will be there in the comments. But sometimes there are a great number of comments in a bug, so the needed information can be hard to find there.
<BjornT> So, to make it easier to find, Launchpad allows you to edit the bug description, by clicking on the "Edit description/tags" link in the action menu to the left.
<BjornT> Moving the important information to the description will make it much easier for the next person looking at the bug to understand the bug.
<BjornT> Let's take a few more questions.
<BjornT> < harrisony> QUESTION:when you mark a bug as a dupe do you then leave it. or close it or..
<BjornT> If you mark a bug as a dupe, you don't have to do anything more about it. It will be considered triaged, and removed from the bug listings.
<BjornT> 20:18 < deniz_ogut> QUESTION: There are bug reports which are "assigned" to. someone but stil remains "uncorfirmed" for many months.. Doesn't it mean that a bug will be triaged soon if it is. assigned to someone? Or still is there a need for new. contributers' help?
<BjornT> This is a tricky situation. It basically requires someone to look at assigned bugs to make sure that some progress is made.
<BjornT> Sometimes a bug can remain Unconfirmed, since the bug is a bit controversial, and requires a great deal of discussion.
<BjornT> < Loic> QUESTION: If we assign ourselves a bug we are triaging but can't. fix, hasn't the bug less chances to attract a developer, since. they will see that someone is already taking care of the bug?
<BjornT> Oh, sorry, maybe I shouldn't have made that clear. After you've done triaging the bug, and moved the bug to Confirmed, you should unassign yourself, so that a developer can fix it.
<BjornT> Ok, let's leave the rest of the question for later, and continue with assigning the bug to the right package.
<BjornT> The next thing you should do is to try to decide whether the bug is filed under the correct source package. In Launchpad bugs are associated with source packages, not binary packages, and it can be hard for people to know on which package to file the bug on.
<BjornT> If a bug doesn't have a package at all, or an incorrect one, it could lead to the bug not getting looked at by the people that should.
<BjornT> Also, each package generally have few different guidelines as to what information a bug should contain, and it narrows down the scope of possible duplicate bugs.
<BjornT> You can change/set the source package on the same form as editing the status, which is expanded by clicking on the package name on the bug page. You can find more information about finding the right source package at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/FindRightPackage.
<BjornT> After you decided that the source package is correct, you can start to search for similar bug reports, to see if the bug has already been reported before.
<BjornT> You should start by going to the package's bug listing, which you can reach by expanding the edit form by clicking on the package name, and then click on the package name next to "Affecting:" to the right in the edit form.
<BjornT> It's good to open this page in a new browser tab, so that you can easily return to the bug report.
<BjornT> On the package bugs page, e.g.  https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/amule, you can search for bugs that are reported on the amule package. The search will include all the bug reports that include the search words that you specify.
<BjornT> If you found a bug report that is about the same bug as the report you are triaging, you can go back to the latter and indicate that it's a duplicate bug by clicking on "Mark as duplicate" and enter the id of the bug you've found.
<BjornT> Now, let's talk about what other information the bug report should contain.
<BjornT> If the bug isn't a duplicate, you can continue making sure that the bug report contains enough information so that a developer can debug what's wrong, ideally without having to request more information for the bug reporter.
<BjornT> The most common thing is to ask the user what version of the related packages he's using. The reporter might not know how to get at this information, so be prepared to tell him how to do it.
<BjornT> Apart from the general version information, each package, or subsystem has their own set of information they want a bug report to contain. For example, bugs involving a USB printer should contain a list of loaded usb modules, as well as some specific log output. The BugSquad can tell you more about this.
<BjornT> You can also find a great deal of information at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingProcedures.
<BjornT> Now, since each part of a project is different, it can makes sense to focus on a specific part. This is especially true for large projects like Ubuntu. For example, in Ubuntu you could choose to focus on printing bugs, desktop bugs, firefox bugs, etc.
<BjornT> Focusing on a smaller set of bugs gives you an opportunity to learn more about it, so that you, after a while, can do more advanced triaging, and maybe even fix bugs yourself.
<BjornT> There are usually sub-teams that you can join, for example desktop-bugs.
<BjornT> Now, I have a few more things to talk about, but let's deal with some questions again.
<BjornT> < techKyLa> QUESTION : DO i have to send the bug report to the particular. project or can it be sent to the genera bug repo?
<BjornT> This is included in the part that is left, but in short, yes, sometimes you should.
<BjornT> Often a bug is really not in the package itself, and not Ubuntu specific, but it's in the software project that is package.
<BjornT> In this case you can link the general bug report to the upstream one.
<BjornT> That way the Ubuntu bug is usually pending a fix from upstream, so the developers don't have to care about it until it has been fixed by someone.
<BjornT> This is something you should wait with doing until you are more comfortable doing triage, and knows more about the packaging, and the packaged software.
<BjornT> < spr0k3t> BjornT: QUESTION: How do you know if a bug has been triaged by. another but unconfirmed?  Is there a standing count of. unconfirmed for each bug?
<BjornT> No, there's no such count. But if you click on "View Activity Log", you can see all the changes to the status of the bug, so you can count for yourself.
<BjornT> <Nergar> QUESTION: is it safe to allow anyone to edit the bug status?
<BjornT> I'd say yes :)
<BjornT> Of course, there are opportunity for someone to abuse the system, and make unauthorized changes to the bug status, but it that happens, we have ways of reverting it.
<BjornT> Everything is logged, so we can undo it.
<BjornT> It's better to make it easy for people to get started, rather than trying to control people too much.
<BjornT> That said, there might be some restriction in the future, where anyone can change the status to some values, while you have to have certain permissions to change it to some other.
<BjornT> < rohan> BjornT: QUESTION: what would be the reasonable time frame before. rejecting a "Needs info" bug that has got no response ?
<BjornT> This is very project specific. I'd say a few weeks, but ask the BugSquad instead.
<BjornT> QUESTION: If you're a bug triager, is it regarded good practice. to set status in a bug you've reported yourself?
<BjornT> It's usually good to have someone else look at what you do, it's so easy to make a mistake. If your bug report has all the required information, it'll be quick for another triager to set it to Confirmed.
<BjornT> < jussi01> BjornT: question: if you are working on any given bug, is. there a way to say to others that your working on it? ie. so. that you dont have a situation where 2 or 3 people are doing. the same work?
<BjornT> Yes, you do this by assigning the bug to yourself.
<BjornT> < deniz_ogut> QUESTION: Would you please talk some more on "Anyone is. allowed to edit the status of a bug, you don't need any. special privileges." It seems to be a serious. responsibility and.... I mean I sitill don't have courage. to edit them. What if I mark them with an improper status?
<BjornT> I've already covered most of this question, but not the last part.
<BjornT> If you're unsure about which status to change the bug to, you can always ask someone.
<BjornT> If you do ask the first couple of times, you will soon be comfortable enough to make a decision by yourself.
<BjornT> Don't be afraid to ask questions when triaging bugs.
<BjornT> < torkiano> QUESTION: if a bug affect a driver what package is afected?  kernel(linux-source-2.6.20) or the source of driver (rt2x00)
<BjornT> This is highly Ubuntu specific, so it's better to ask this question in #ubuntu-bugs, they will help you.
<BjornT> < ditsch> QUESTION: Is it worthy to tag the bugs and if so, is there a. standard set of tags somewhere to include in the bug reports?
<BjornT> In general it is worth tagging bugs, although I think Launchpad needs to be improved before tags get really useful for Ubuntu. We're working on it, though.
<BjornT> But there are examples where it is good to ask tags. For example, new crash reports from Apport should be tagged with needs-retrace, so that the automatic re-tracer can pick them up.
<BjornT> < micahcowan> QUESTION: Except in cases of backports/SRUs, won't the  package version typically be obvious from what version of  Ubuntu the reporter is running (and thus "what Ubuntu  version" being an equivalent question)
<BjornT> No, it won't always be obvious. Sometimes the user hasn't updated his system for a while, and he might run an LTS like dapper.
<BjornT> Also, if you leave the bug report for a month, it's not nice having to look up which version was the current one a month ago.
<BjornT> ok, that's all i had time for. thanks for listening.
<BjornT> Also, to remind you, if you want to start triaging Ubuntu bugs (you really should give it a try), read https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugSquad and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/HowToTriage.
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o mrevell]  by PriceChild
<mrevell> Okay, thanks BjornT! Looks like it's my turn now :)
<mrevell> Welcome to the "Introduction to Launchpad" session! Thanks for attending.
<PriceChild> The Ubuntu Open Week fun is now! || See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek for the session times || https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules are the rules, please respect them || QUESTION: <insert question here> in #ubuntu-classroom-chat to ask questions.. chatting happens there too || Introduction to Launchpad - Matthew Revell
<mrevell> Over the next hour, I'll take you through what makes Launchpad special.
<mrevell> I'll also tell you when our other Launchpad-related sessions will be held, so you can find out more about using Launchpad for Ubuntu and other free software projects.
<mrevell> If we have time, towards the end of this session, I'll be happy to answer your questions.
<mrevell> However, we have an entire session dedicated to Launchpad Q&A at this time tomorrow (2007-04-23 18:00 UTC).
<mrevell> Let's start with an overview of what Launchpad is:
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o PriceChild]  by ChanServ
<mrevell> Launchpad is a web-based application to help people work on free software projects. It has five main tools:
<mrevell> * bug tracker
<mrevell> * code hosting
<mrevell> * translations
<mrevell> * blueprint tracker
<mrevell> * answer tracker.
<mrevell> What makes Launchpad really special, though, is its approach to collaboration.
<mrevell> Launchpad was originally built to make it easy to create Ubuntu.
<mrevell> Ubuntu is made up of the work of hundreds of different communities.
<mrevell> Launchpad makes it easy for those communities to work together when they face shared problems.
<mrevell> 
<mrevell> Take a look at https://launchpad.net/~matthew.revell
<mrevell> 
<mrevell> This is my Launchpad profile page. Try not to laugh at the bad photo :)
<mrevell> However bad it is, that photo's pretty useful. It appears on pages of my work and makes it easy to see what I've worked on.
<mrevell> On my profile page, you can get an idea of what interests me and what work I've done in Launchpad.
<mrevell> The "Most active in" section shows you which projects I've worked on recently and what sort of work I did.
<mrevell> Unsurprisingly, Launchpad is top of my list!
<mrevell> The two icons there show you that I've recently worked on bugs and blueprints related to Launchpad.
<mrevell> You can also see how to contact me and which teams I've joined.
<mrevell> Launchpad teams make it easy for groups of people to organise themselves. Anyone can create a team.
<mrevell> Teams can do just about anything that an individual can. For example: they can join other teams or act as the bug contact for a project.
<mrevell> 
<mrevell> Before we get down to the individual parts of Launchpad, I'd like to explain some terminology.
<mrevell> Communities are groups of people who work on software. They're not necessarily the originators of that software.
<mrevell> I'll often refer to communities throughout this session
<mrevell> For example: there are many communities who work with code from Firefox. There's the original Firefox team, the Debian packagers, the Ubuntu Firefox/Mozilla team, the Epiphany team and so on.
<mrevell> 
<mrevell> Okay, let's look at the Launchpad bug tracker. It's probably the Launchpad tool that you know best and you may know it by its old name, Malone.
<mrevell> You probably know that free software projects share code all the time. Take the Jokosher audio editor, for example. It relies on code from Gstreamer, Python, Gnome and other projects.
<mrevell> Similarly, Linux distributions take the work of free software projects and package them up for people to use. They sometimes make changes to the code and also act as a frontline for when people report bugs.
<mrevell> All of this means that bugs in free software aren't always reported to the people who wrote the code in the first place.
<mrevell> With Launchpad, you can follow a bug as it affects each individual community. For example, let's look at: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/92345
<mrevell> At the top of the page is a table that shows the communities that this bug affects. Each community sets its own status and importance for the bug but can share the same comment history.
<mrevell> At a glance, you can see if someone has found a solution to the bug. You can also follow the full conversation that has taken place so far. With bug 92345, you may have noticed that two of the communities affected don't even use Launchpad.
<mrevell> That's no problem. Much like your blog feed reader, Launchpad follows bugs in other bug trackers, including BugZilla, Roundup, Debian Bug Tracker and Sourceforge.
<mrevell> Okay, so it's really cool that Launchpad makes bug tracking a hundred times more useful for free software projects. But it also gets the basics right too.
<mrevell> Here's a short list of some of the cool stuff that Launchpad's bug tracker has going for it:
<mrevell> * Easy to use web interface.
<mrevell> * Email interface.
<mrevell> * Bug tagging - create ad-hoc groups of bugs.
<mrevell> * Fully hosted service - no sysadmin work.
<mrevell> * Works with other parts of Launchpad, such as code hosting and the blueprint tracker.
<mrevell> 
<mrevell> Now, onto code hosting
<mrevell> Launchpad works with the Bazaar version control system. Bazaar is a distributed version control system.
<mrevell> That means everyone has their own code repository (called a branch in Bazaar terms).
<mrevell> Unlike with CVS or Subversion, you don't need special permissions to start work on someone else's code.
<mrevell> Instead, you create your own branch and work on that. It's then easy to merge your changes back into the original branch.
<mrevell> And hosting a branch publicly is really easy. All you need is a standard web server.
<mrevell> You can find out more about Bazaar on its own on Wednesday at 20:00 UTC with Martin Pool.
<mrevell> Launchpad makes Bazaar even more useful. One of the problems with distributed version control is that it can be hard to find all the branches associated with your project.
<mrevell> Launchpad solves that. It has a browsable code catalogue for each project.
<mrevell> Anyone can register their branch to show up in your project's branch list. You can see how active each branch is, read the developer's commit messages and create your own branch at any time.
<mrevell> Importantly, Launchpad can either directly host the branches or mirror them. This means they're always available for anyone to create their own branch.
<mrevell> Take a look at the branches for Ubuntu's Update Manager: https://code.launchpad.net/update-manager
<mrevell> You can see the main branch but people have also created their own branches to work on their priorities. Bazaar makes it really easy for development to take different directions, while Launchpad helps make sure it's all accessible from one place.
<mrevell> Now, take a look at the Bazaar project's branches: https://code.launchpad.net/bzr
<mrevell> Notice the small bug icons? If you create a branch to fix specific bugs, you can link the branch to the relevant bug reports. The bug icons indicate there's a link.
<mrevell> With a link between a bug report and the branch that fixes it, everyone can now easily get hold of a bug's solution.
<mrevell> On that page you can also see several branches registered to the Bazaar Developers team. These are team branches.
<mrevell> They're hosted centrally, on Launchpad, and only members of the Bazaar Developers team can commit to them.
<mrevell> Team branches are ideal for working together on a major line of development. Anyone can still create their branch, though.
<mrevell> Finally, Launchpad can make a continuous import of almost any CVS or Subversion repository hosted on the internet.
<mrevell>  This means that you can create your own Bazaar branch of the code and your own line of development.
<mrevell> With Bazaar's bzr-svn plugin, and the appropriate commit access, you can even commit your code back to Subversion repositories.
<mrevell> You can find out more about hosting code with Launchpad here tomorrow at 20:00 with Jono Lange.
<mrevell> 
<mrevell> Okay, onto translations!
<mrevell> Launchpad Translations, formerly known as Rosetta, takes the pain out of translating software into different languages.
<mrevell> Much of the free software world uses GNU's GetText. Developers put markers in their code to show where a GetText should insert a string of interface text.
<mrevell> GetText uses a certain file format to store translated strings. Although it's simple enough, the truth is that translators shouldn't have to be coders.
<mrevell> Launchpad shields translators from the underlying complexities and gives them a simple web interface.
<mrevell> Launchpad currently works with 237 languages and has more than 760,000 strings in its database. Naturally, the same phrases occur in the interfaces of many applications.
<mrevell> When someone is translating an application, Launchpad checks its database to see if it has already seen those strings in that language. If it has, it suggests them to the translator.
<mrevell> Launchpad also gives teams three different ways to ensure they get the right balance between control of translations and encouraging community participation.
<mrevell> From fully open - where anyone can translate - to restricted, where only pre-appointed translators can make translations.
<mrevell> Of course, development work usually starts on a new release while the stable release is still in use. Launchpad allows multiple translation efforts to take place concurrently for the same project.
<mrevell> So, translation can begin on a new release and continue on the stable release.
<mrevell> You can find out more about Launchpad Translations in Carlos and Danilo's session at 18:00 UTC on Thursday.
<mrevell> 
<mrevell> Launchpad's Blueprint Tracker is unique. It helps you track chunks of work associated with your project. Many of you will have come across blueprints when working on Ubuntu.
<mrevell> A blueprint can be anything from a single sentence to a full specification, with information about who is involved and where it fits into your project's roadmap.
<mrevell> Anyone can create a blueprint for a project. This is a great way for everyone to get involved in shaping the future of a project. However, the project's leaders get to choose the priority of each blueprint.
<mrevell> Take a look at https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu
<mrevell> Here you can see all the blueprints associated with Ubuntu. Not only can you see the priority of each blueprint but also:
<mrevell> * Definition status - how well thought out and presented is the idea? Is it a full spec or just a one line scribble?
<mrevell> * Progress - has work begun on it? Is a beta available? Is it delayed?
<mrevell> * Assignee - who's responsible for making sure the blueprint is implemented?
<mrevell> * Release - which release is this blueprint targeted to?
<mrevell> With the Blueprint Tracker, you can also organise meetings, such as Ubuntu Developer Summits. Anyone can contribute to the meeting's agenda by suggesting which blueprints to discuss.
<mrevell> You can see the agenda for UDS Mountain View at https://blueprints.launchpad.net/sprints/uds-mtv
<mrevell> And like bugs, you can link blueprints to the code branches that implement them.
<mrevell> You can find out more about the Blueprint Tracker in kiko's session at 18:00 UTC on Friday.
<mrevell> Now onto the Answer Tracker!
<mrevell> 
<mrevell> Mailing lists and web forums are traditionally where free software projects answer user support questions. However, it can be difficult to capture that knowledge and make it easily available to the community.
<mrevell> Some people are also intimidated by mailing lists or the initiation rituals of some forums :)
<mrevell> Launchpad's Answer Tracker is a simple way for people to ask questions about a project.
<mrevell> Anyone can offer an answer and they original questioner can highlight the answer they found most useful.
<mrevell> Members of a project's community can sign up to be support contacts, meaning they receive an email each time a new question is asked about that project.
<mrevell> The Answer Tracker is the first part of Launchpad to be localised.
<mrevell> People can ask questions in their own language(s). Support contacts can choose to receive notification of questions asked in their preferred languages.
<mrevell> Importantly, all of the questions and answers are easily searchable, meaning that they build into a knowledge-base for the project.
<mrevell> You can find out more about Launchpad's Answer Tracker in Francis and Alan's session at 19:00 UTC on Wednesday.
<mrevell> So, what is the future for Launchpad?
<mrevell> We're working to add new features to Launchpad and you can get a first taste by joining the Launchpad Beta Testers team..
<mrevell> You can sign up at:
<mrevell> https://launchpad.net/~launchpad-beta-testers
<mrevell> As I said earlier, Launchpad was created to make it easy for the Ubuntu community to create the best operating system in the world :)
<mrevell> However, we think Launchpad is ready for other communities and projects to start using it in earnest.
<mrevell> Recently, Zope and SilvaCMS started using Launchpad's Bug Tracker. We've also seen many other projects, including PledgeBank, WengoPhone and Creative Commons start to use Translations.
<mrevell> Thank you so much for your interest in Launchpad.
<mrevell> I hope that I've given you a taster of what Launchpad is all about.
<mrevell> You can find out more about each individual tool, and ask detailed technical questions, in the other Launchpad sessions
<mrevell> We'd love to hear what you think about Launchpad and to hear your questions. Join us in #launchpad, or on the launchpad-users mailing list:
<mrevell> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/launchpad-users
<mrevell> We also have user meetings in #launchpad. We'll have the next one on 2nd May at 16:00 UTC. Add your questions to the agenda at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LaunchpadUserMeeting/2007-05-02
<mrevell> Please join kiko for the Launchpad Q&A session tomorrow at 18:00 UTC.
<mrevell> I'll now read your questions in the other channel and answer as many as I'm able :)
<mrevell> <harrisony> COMMENT: Launchpad pwns all!
<mrevell> Thank you for your comment :-D
<mrevell>  QUESTION : how many people use launchpad at this very moment? And is it all Ubuntu or more?
<mrevell> <unimatrix9>
<mrevell> You can find cool stats about Launchpad just by browsing around it.
<mrevell> For example:
<mrevell> https://launchpad.net/people
<mrevell> Open the stats portlet in the left-hand menu and you'll see
<mrevell> that 966086 people have registered in Launchpad so far.
<mrevell> You can also see there are nearly a thousand projects registered in Launchpad.
<mrevell> Some of those projects may not have been registered officially, but instead by someone who wants to import code into Bazaar from a Subversion repository, for example.
<mrevell> unimatrix9: I hope that answers your question.
<mrevell> <neuro_> QUESTION: What other improvements are planned for launchpad in the future?
<mrevell> neuro_: All the improvements and new features for Launchpad will have the aim of making it easier for people to work together on free software projects. Rather than go into details right now, I'll instead invite you to keep an eye on the Launchpad Beta Testers team, where you can try out new features as we take them into private beta.
<mrevell> <harrisony> QUESTION:with malone how it can get bug info from other trackers, is anything similar to that planned for rosetta?
<mrevell> harrisony: BjornT would be the best person to go into the technical detail of how the bug tracker watches external trackers.
<mrevell> harrisony: I'm not aware of any web-based services that have the same scope as Launchpad Translations.
<mrevell> harrisony: However, we do import upstream translations already. I'm sure carlos and danilo, the Translations guys, would love to hear your feature requests, though. Or email me and I'll ensure they get to the right people.
<mrevell> <Niwatori> QUESTION: if we translate some apps on rosetta, for example GIMP, will our translation sent / to be used by the GIMP translation, or it will be redundant translation, the main GIMP and the launchpad/Ubuntu one
<mrevell> Niwatori: If you translate the GIMP packages in Ubuntu, then your translations will be used in Ubuntu, so they won't be redundant.
<mrevell> Niwatori: We don#t actively push translations upstream to The GIMP, though. The translations are totally
<mrevell> s/actively/automatically
<mrevell> The translations are totally available to upstreams to use, though, of course. They're available as standard GetText files.
<mrevell> Niwatori: If you'd like to make suggestions, we'd love to hear them though. Please mail me or join us in #launchpad or any of the other ways of contacting us that I mentioned earlier.
<mrevell> <Belutz> QUESTION: for translation, which one do you recommend to be translated first? and in the packages list there are also some lib packages, is it have to be translated too?
<mrevell> Belutz: The first thing to do is to approach the project/community you hope to translate for. For example, Ubuntu LoCo teams often look after the translations for their locality's language(s)
<mrevell> Belutz: So, ask them what they see as a priority for translation.
<mrevell> Belutz: You can, though, easily see which packages are most in need of translation by looking at the bar chart for each package in a language.
<mrevell> Belutz: as for libs, I believe that only user-interface text is made available. However, you can check that with carlos or danilo.
<mrevell> <unimatrix9> QUESTION : is launchpad being monitored so it will not collapse under to many items? ( is there an limit set ? )
<mrevell> unimatrix9: Yes! Launchpad has a dedicated team of developers and sysadmins, as well as many many servers in a world-class data centre. Launchpad is very much extensible.
<mrevell> <ditsch> QUESTION: Is there a thought about merging/collaborating the answer tracker with the mailing lists and/or the forum to get a wider knowledgebase?
<mrevell> ditsch: That's an interesting suggestion and I think you should join the beta team to be amongst the first to see new features in that area.
<mrevell> #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<mrevell> <deniz_ogut> QUESTION: What's the license type of Launchpad. If its not GPL or Free in general; why?
<mrevell> deniz_ogut: I was waiting for that one :) Briefly, Launchpad's code is not distributed, nor are any binaries. Launchpad is currently only available as a web service, much as Google Mail is. However, we have contributed back to free software projects and we do have plans for releasing more of Launchpad as free software.
<mrevell> deniz_ogut: As for why it isn't released as free software at the moment:
<mrevell> deniz_ogut: we believe that we can make Launchpad work best for the community, and specifically for Ubuntu, by managing it as one web service for the moment. However, Mark S has stated - several times - that we plan to open Launchpad in the future.
<mrevell> <mc44> mrevell: QUESTION: How does Canonical plan to make money from Launchpad? Is it already making revenue for you?
<mrevell> mc44: That's an interesting question, thanks.
<mrevell> mc44: Canonical's plan for Launchpad is that it should provide a really great infrastructure for managing the Ubuntu family.
<mrevell> mc44: In providing Launchpad to free software projects, we hope that we can bring those benefits to the wider community too.
<mrevell> mc44: So, our aim for Launchpad is to provide great infrastructure. That's the only plan I know about.
<mrevell> Okay, so, I'm coming to the end of my session! I think I've covered everyone's questions. We have a couple of minutes though if you want to shove another one in!
<mrevell> Don't forget Kiko's dedicated Launchpad Q&A session tomorrow
<mrevell> <harrisony> QUESTION: is there a test launchpad server because i wana see what launchpad can do but dont want to create a project called test and spam launchpad
<mrevell> harrisony: Good question.
<mrevell> harrisony: Yes, we do have test servers.
<mrevell> harrisony: Or, I should say, a test environment. Forgive me, following the public beta release I'm not sure of its current status. If you could mail me or join kiko's session tomorrow, I'll get you a good answer :)
<mrevell> Okay, thanks again everyone.
<mrevell> amarillion: Not only do you have a great nick but that's a great question. poningru, great question too. Can I suggest you join kiko's session tomorrow?
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o PriceChild]  by ChanServ
<mrevell> As we've run out of time for this evening.
<mrevell> Thank you everyone
<mrevell> matthew.revell@canonical.com
<mrevell> email me any time
<mrevell> I'd love to hear from you.
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o dinda]  by PriceChild
<dinda> Thanks mrevell!  I'm Dinda, we'll start the next session in just a minute
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-classroom:PriceChild] : The Ubuntu Open Week fun commences at 15:00UTC TODAY! || See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek for the session times || https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules are the rules, please respect them || QUESTION: <insert question here> in #ubuntu-classroom-chat to ask questions.. chatting happens there too || Current Session: Ubuntu Women - Belinda Lopez
<dinda> I've got about one minute until our official start, so we'll let everyone enter/exit as needed.
<PriceChild> For all the new arrivals. Please join #ubuntu-classroom-chat if you want to ask your questions/chat.
<dinda> Howdy and welcome to the Ubuntu Open Week Session on The Ubuntu-Women Project!
<dinda> My name is Belinda Lopez, aka Dinda.  Im currently living in Galveston, Texas and working as a consultant for all things in the training/learning field.
<dinda> Heres the way ubuntu open week is working each session leader will give their session in this channel, and general discussion and questions happens in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<dinda> Please keep all chatter and questions to that channel - this channel should only be for the speaker to speak in.
<dinda> Asking a question is simple - in #ubuntu-classroom-chat just prefix your question with the nick of the speaker and the word QUESTION.   The speaker will then cut out the question and paste in here and answer it
<dinda> In this particular session I am going to speak for a short while and then have a Q+A session where I can answer your questions.
<dinda> So, just to repeat,
<dinda> My name is Belinda Lopez, aka Dinda.  Im currently living in Galveston, Texas and working as a consultant for all things in the training/learning field.
<dinda> I started following the Ubuntu project about 18 months ago and got sucked into the whole wonderful world of all things open source shortly there after.  Along the way to enlightenment I discovered this great group of folks in The Ubuntu-Women Project.
<dinda> I  checked out the website at http://www.ubuntu-women.org/
<dinda> then joined the mailing list and finally started spending some time in the irc channel.
<dinda> The group was initially started by Vid Ayer and others.  I Understand that Sabdfl and Canonical helped register the domain and get resources in place.
<dinda> For a while we were a group of helpers with no leaders.  Several folks stepped up to get the group moving and now we have several projects that we are working on.
<dinda> I helped kick start regular irc meetings and with help from the Community Council we were able to get more Admins for our website and other leadership issues worked out.
<dinda> We also have several more irc ops in our channel as it seems to be a prime target for trolls!  ack!
<dinda> So the biggest question we get is "Why is there an Ubuntu-Women Project?"
<dinda> or "Why do we need the Ubuntu-Women Project?"
<dinda> Many feel as though its an attempt at integration by separation rather just everyone jumping into the larger Ubuntu pool.  From my own experience I can tell you I never intended to even join such a group, much less become something of a leader!
<dinda> Many of our members came from other areas first and then we realized this is an area that still needs work to simply help level the playing field in Ubuntu and within many other F/LOSS projects.
<dinda> myself included - I came first to learn about education and open source projects
<dinda> Many of us came from other distros/upstream projects/linuxchix/etc and were drawn to the Ubuntu community because of the Code of Conduct, COC.
<dinda> The language and feeling of inclusion voiced in the COC and Ubuntu community was/is a great starting place; especially for newbies and other minorities to Linux and open source projects.
<dinda> But, unfortunately, even within Ubuntu, several female members have reported problems on mailing lists, within their loco teams and especially on IRC. . .
<dinda> So there is still MUCH work to be done.
<dinda> One response I gave to someone in the forums when asked Why is there an Ubuntu Womens Project? was that. . .
<dinda> . . . when we start seeing the "I just got my tech skills insulted because of my gender" or "because I'm a man they just assumed I knew nothing technical about Linux/SysAdmin/prgramming/etc." post by men then we won't need women's groups."
<dinda> There are many technically capable women in the group and within F/LOSS, so it can be very frustrating when someone challenges your tech skills simply because "youre a girl"
<dinda> And when we started sharing our experiences in IT, F/LOSS and even Ubuntu we realized that it is still happening.  :(
<dinda> Even if you personally have experienced it or seen it happen, it can be very frustrating to see others go through bad experiences.  So the UW Project is also here to help in that area.
<dinda> I, myself, came from an extremely technical world, Spacefligt Training at NASA, and yet am a newbie in Linux and Open Source, and often found it somewhat intimidating to ask questions or frustrating trying to find answers in the various channels, lists and online resources.
<dinda> I joined the UW project because I found a welcoming group of folks who were open to questions and people with similar experiences as mine.
<dinda> Some of the projects the group has taken on are mentoring, HCI contributions, forums integration, advocacy and conference appearances/presentations.
<dinda> Just to plug Ubuntu Live  The talk I proposed with the help of the whole Ubuntu Womens Project, titled, Why we need the Ubuntu-Women Project? was accepted and will be part of Ubuntu Live in July.
<dinda> and with that I'll open it up for questions
<PriceChild> <Sanne> dinda QUESTION: will there be a transcript or video of your Ubuntu Live talk, by any chance?
<dinda> I'll definitely put up my presentation on the web somewhere with my speaker notes. . .
<dinda> but I'm not sure what the conference is doing in terms of video or any live streaming
<PriceChild> <erstazi> dinda: QUESTION: What is the best approach to getting wife to use Linux? Even after having the various applications she likes migrated under wine?
<dinda> Hmm, interesting question . .  but I think the migration path is different for everyone. . .
<dinda> I still use and XP laptop given to me by my current job and also my main machine is a Mac laptop
<dinda> many long time users don't realize there is a learning curve, even if it is slight for new users
<dinda> that is one area I'm working to help overcome, actually with end user training
<dinda> it has to be comfortable for her or any user to use
<PriceChild> <duncan_nz> <QUESTION> What would you say are the biggest reasons why there are relatively few women in software development, especially OpenSource?
<dinda> Ah, the $64k question!
<dinda> Part of it might be because it is relatively new
<dinda> some likened it to Law or Medicine 20 or so years ago
<dinda> but once women became interested, and the field became level, more women entered, in droves
<dinda> right now, it's mostly marketing, just gettig the word out about FOSS in general is the next step
<PriceChild> <unimatrix9> QUESTION : whats the most attracting thing for woman about ubuntu?
<dinda> a year ago no one knew what I meant when I mentioned Ubuntu or open source, now many more, especially in education know the terms
<dinda> The Code of Conduct!
<dinda> I've heard from so many that the Ubuntu Community just rocks.
<dinda> I happen to believe that too.  :)
<dinda> It is a welcoming community for everyone and I think folks can find their niche within the community
<PriceChild> <richb> dinda QUESTION: Do you think that the IT sector in general has more problems with sexism than other fields of employment, if so are there any glaring causes?
<dinda> That is how I found the Ubuntu-women project
* dinda is pondering that question. . .
<dinda> Coming for an entirely technical world of engineers at NASA and now IT, not sure if it is just IT in general or just Linux. . .
<dinda> or just open source?
<dinda> I'd be curious to throw that question to our mailing list and forums
<PriceChild> <deniz_ogut> dinda QUESTION: would you please give some info on the distribution of the team members by countries, regions, continents?
<dinda> It's failry spread out over the world. . .
<dinda> Vid, the founder is from India
<dinda> many from the US and Australia, linuxxhix
<dinda> more from europe and the phillipines
<dinda> one thing we don't have is a current headcount other than the lanuchpad team
<dinda> you can check the Launchpad Team info and look at member profiles
<PriceChild> <amarillion> QUESTION: Do you see a lot of success stories, i.e. people switching from windows to linux because of projects like ubuntu-women?
* dinda reading Burgwork's comment
<PriceChild> <Burgwork> dinda: COMMENT: I don't know if you have seen the numbers, but IT world in general is less than 20%, Open Source runs about 2%
<dinda> Burgwork - most FLOSS polls have it even lower, some as low as 2%
<dinda> I'm not sure about switchers but the U-W project certainly helps keep those interested here
<dinda> We were surprised recently by the number of members reporting various types of sexism within the Ubuntu Community. . .
<dinda> so we started a dialog among members and Jono Bacon is now meeting with the project on ways to help combat that in Ubuntu
<dinda> Lots of Ubuntu Women members came from upstream groups such as LinuxChix, Debian women
<dinda> It's somewhat frustrating to see the same patterns repeat over and again with the various groups
<PriceChild> <amarillion> QUESTION: Do you think there are other groups that could benefit from extra support?
<dinda> Not sure what you mean by other groups?  other audiences?  or specific projects?
<dinda> One of the things I found when I came into the project is just being overwhlemed by all the groups seeking help
<dinda> There was/is tons of information but no step 1, step 2, step 3 path into the volunteer areas
<PriceChild> <LaserJock> dinda: QUESTION: is there any obvious thing that Ubuntu developers (like the MOTU) can do to encourage more women to contribute besides just being decent and nice? or are they doing ok as it is, in your opinion?
<dinda> The MOTU, CC, Jono, the core developers, imho, are all doing a great job. . .
<dinda> it's harder to elaborate on ways to encourage women, without it coming down to "use common sense" but. . .
<dinda> obivously things like "don't ask for pictures" and don't troll the u-w irc channel are some
<dinda> When I went to UDS PAris there were about three women in attendance
<dinda> UDS Mountain view had a few more
<dinda> think about if the roles were reversed and a guy walked into a room of 50 - 70 women developers
<dinda> people want to see others like themselves, they just feel more comfortable
<dinda> same thing with culture and language
<dinda> so there are no easy answers to encouraging women other than just helping to create a professional environment
<PriceChild> <spr0k3t> dinda: QUESTION: I'm the only guy in the group of developers I work with, I can understand how intimidating being the odd one out can be sometimes.  Now as an estimate would you say there are more women involved than people realize?  I've heard as little as 5% of the active community, but I believe it to be a much larger number.
<dinda> I thnk the numbers are larger. . .
<dinda> there is just the matter of having time to contribute
<dinda> we have tons of programmers, sys admins, bug workers in the group but all seem really tight for time
<dinda> but I think now that the group is growing and folks are getting used to having women contribute in technical areas, more will be encouraged to participate
<dinda> Plus now that women are leading in some areas, that helps too  :)
<dinda> For example I helped kick start the Ubuntu Houston Loco Team
<dinda> Last week I stood up in front of 25 guys (and two of their girlfriends) to lead the meeting
<dinda> It was great
<dinda> Elkbuntum Hobbsee, Pleai2, others are all leading by example
<PriceChild> hehe "elkbuntum" :)
<dinda> doh!
<dinda> The wonderful Elkbuntu from the magical land of Oz
<dinda> I wish I could make the next UDS to see what the turnout will be
<dinda> PriceChild - other questions
<PriceChild> <el_isma> dinda QUESTION: Most technical careers have few female students. In my University approximately 5%-10% of the students are woman. Do you think the percentage is what it is because women are not generally interested in tech or because discrimination scares them away?
* dinda is trying to read some of the chat log
<dinda> I can only speak from my personal experience. . .
<dinda> which is I used to be a programmer and now I'm not
<dinda> way back in highschool and even early college I started on the programmer path but somewhere along the way it stopped being fun
<dinda> I think the environment is definitely opeing up for women but it can be frustrating to encounter a "good old boys" club in any field
<dinda> and I don't buy the whole women don't like technical stuff gender argument either
<dinda> that's totally not true. . .we just like things that work - like Ubuntu
<PriceChild> <deniz_ogut> dinda QUESTION: Is there a need/way of contribution to your efforts from male members of the community? Not in general sense as "be good persons"; is there something you ask in concrete terms?
<dinda> First guideline, "Don't be condescending!"
<dinda> When we need/want help we will ask for it
<dinda> The other thing we discovered at our meeting with Jono. . .
<dinda> is that we really need other men to step up and say when they see other members being sexist or making sexist comments/jokes
<dinda> We need Men to be an example for other men and boys
<dinda> So it's not enough to not do it yourself, be aware that it is happening and be prepared to speak up when you see it
<dinda> priceChild - can you paste in that ? from LaserJock?
<PriceChild> <LaserJock> QUESTION: I find it a bit more difficult with women on IRC because I don't want to let other's necessarily know (her/she in speech) but then I feel like I'm isolating them. Pictures are another thing. I like pictures/hackergotchis to give a personal touch. Is it best to just ask?
<dinda> That's a balancing act, LaserJock
<dinda> On the one hand we want to be more visible on the other, it often makes us targets :(
<dinda> I became an Ubuntu member a few months ago but have been hesitant to add my blog to planet
<dinda> I think it's okay to ask, if you need clarification
<dinda> and let them know it's for that reason not b/c you are trolling
<dinda> time for one or two more questions
<dinda> you folks have been great, btw
<dinda> wish I could keep up with the chat going on
<dinda> You can find more info on the Ubuntu Women Project at www.ubuntu-women.org
<PriceChild> <Monika|K> dinda QUESTION: So does Ubuntu Women concentrate on stuff like promoting Ubuntu, or more on technical stuff, like helping women become MOTUs or start developing software?
<dinda> all of the above!
<dinda> members tend to use it as a stepping stone into other areas of Ubuntu
<dinda> We are especially intersted in getting more mentoring going
<dinda> Okay, I have to wrap it up now
<dinda> Thanks to everyone, you've been great!
<PriceChild> Thanks very much dinda :)
<gnomefreak> dinda: thank you it was a wonderful session
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o BenC]  by PriceChild
<dinda> You also gave me alot of good questions to add to my Ubuntu Live presentation
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-classroom:PriceChild] : The Ubuntu Open Week is on right now! || See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek for the session times || https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules are the rules, please respect them || QUESTION: <insert question here> in #ubuntu-classroom-chat to ask questions.. chatting happens there too || Current Session: Kernel Team - Ben Collins
<BenC> Hello, and welcome to the Ubuntu Open Week session for the Kernel Team. I'm Ben Collins, the Ubuntu Kernel Team Technical Lead. In this session, I'll start with some background on the Kernel Team, and then open up for some Q+A.
<BenC> I work directly for Canonical as a member of the Ubuntu Distro Team, and have been maintaining the Ubuntu Linux Kernel for a little more than 1.5 years now.
<BenC> When I first started, the Ubuntu Kernel Team consisted of myself, having taken it over from Fabio M. Di Nitto (fabbione).
<BenC> Since then, we have grown to a total of 4 paid kernel developers: Myself, Kyle McMartin (kylem), Tim Gardner (rtg) and Phillip Lougher (pkl).
<BenC> Our daily routine is very mundane. We peruse the launchpad bugs for the kernel, working to confirm and evaluate the bug reports. On good days, we try to fix these bugs, and in between we do a little development on the kernel :)
<BenC> Most of us have outside projects we work on. Kyle handles parisc patches, and Phillip is the SquashFS maintainer. I used to maintain the Linux IEEE-1394 stack, but that has since been passed on to someone else for lack of time on my part. For many years I've done trivial work on the UltraSPARC kernel port.
<BenC> Since the team in its current state is very new, we haven't seen a lot of what we can do. We do plan to open up our roadmap a lot for the gutsy development cycle, and produce some new and exciting things. I'm looking forward to seeing what the great group of developers can do.
<BenC> Some things are already coming open, like the newly developed gutsy kernel build system, which should allow for the community to better interact with us, and allow us to provide a better quality kernel for release.
<BenC> And now I would like to open the Q+A portion of this session...
<PriceChild> For all the new joiners please go to #ubuntu-classroom-chat to ask your questions.
<BenC> right, thanks PriceChild
<PriceChild> <Riddell> QUESTION: what is the gutsy kernel build system?
<BenC> The build system in question is the bulk of the debian/* directory in our source tree
<BenC> Before gutsy, we had been using kernel-package (make-kpkg) to create the kernel deb's and handle the majority of the build process
<BenC> this has proven to be very clunky, and hasn't adapted well for us
<BenC> So for gutsy, we developed a new build system that can be see in the debian/* directory of the ubuntu-gutsy.git repo (kernel.org)
<BenC> It allows us to better customize the build, and allows for easier add-ons by external builds (people who want to make custom kernels available)
<BenC> plus it cuts down the build time A LOT
<BenC> next Q?
<PriceChild> <tsmithe> QUESTION: How should an eager user learn about kernel development?
<BenC> I knew this question would come up, but I failed to prepare for it :)    However, the best way to learn about kernel development is dive in. Most people find something that plucks they're nerves and get into the source and try to fix it.
<BenC> This can be anything, even as trivial as msg printed in kern.log
<BenC> just getting familiar with the source tree layout is a tremendous way to start working with the kernel
<PriceChild> <Riddell> QUESTION: why does the package name include the upstream version?  Does this mean you loose bugs when there's a new upstream version?
<BenC> The package name has always included the version. Back when we had bugzilla, there was a linux meta target for all kernel bugs.
<BenC> When the big lp move occurred, it was not possible to do this.
<BenC> lp == launchpad
<PriceChild> <joebaker> QUESTION:  Realtime patches?  I see some places where realtime could be useful.  Do you see Ubuntu ever releasing a default kernel with the Realtime enabled?
<BenC> However, I kept the staus quo because the kernel bug list can easily get full of stale bugs, and starting with a clean slate every release is very helpful
<BenC> Well, yes, I can see that happening when those patches are in upstream kernel. See the KernelTeam wiki, specifically the FAQ about why the -rt patches are not in our kernel.
<PriceChild> <erstazi> QUESTION: how many volunteers are helping with the development of the kernel?
<BenC> We have about 3 very active volunteers
<BenC> Would be nice for that to grow
<PriceChild> <unimatrix9> QUESTION : what are the most urgent topics that needs to be adressed by your team, that might need help at the moment?
<BenC> Our biggest issue is hw testing. We obviously can't have every bit of hw, and even if people file a bug on a driver/hw combo that doesn't work, it's very hard for us to remotely fix it on someone elses system. We definitely need more capable people testing hw
<BenC> Two biggest areas where we need testing, storage (IDE/SATA) and wireless
<BenC> we always seem to hit problems with them on every release, and we are chasing our tails to fix the problems
<PriceChild> <rohan> QUESTION: there are many regressions from edgy kernel to feisty kernel, related to sound issues. is this related to kernel team ? if so, will the new build system help in anyway to test these type of regressions ?
<BenC> Part 1) Yes, it is kernel related
<BenC> Part 2) No, the build system does not do run time testing
<BenC> See answer to prior question on testing
<PriceChild> <Demon012> QUESTION: Can you recommend any reading material on developing the Linux Kernel and Linux Drivers?
<BenC> There is a Linux Device Drivers book from Oreilly, which is what I read when I first started with the kernel
<BenC> It's a great intro to the kernel APIs
<BenC> There's also the linux-doc meta package in Ubuntu, which has html of all the in-source documentation
<PriceChild> <zul> QUESTION: what is the new features for gutsy? er...besides the build system
<PriceChild> Anything you want to see on the roadmap?
<BenC> One area I'd like to concentrate on is the validation and testing infrastructure in the new build system. A lot of regressions from release-to-release (or even from one upload to the next) can be caught at build time.
<BenC> There are some ideas on the KernelTeam/Roadmap wiki
<PriceChild> <joebaker> QUESTION:  Ubuntu-Studio requires Low latency.  Can you speak to this?  I'd like the sound to be production quality.  We use Linux thin clients and I'm pondering whether we may be able to some day add VOIP support at the thin client.  What suffers when you use a low latency option?
<BenC> low latency is a hot topic for us
<BenC> However, we have an issue where the stock kernel doesn't support the needed features, and patches to do this are very invasive
<BenC> But, the new build system is going to allow for kernels like this to be built in-tree and uploaded with the rest of the kernel images. We will be VERY picky on which ones get included for this feature.
<BenC> lowlatency is most likely one, Xen is another candidate
<PriceChild> <danohuiginn> QUESTION: how is the kernel team using the information in the ubuntu hardware database?
<BenC> In theory we want to use it to gather information on use coverage for certain types of hw, but in reality we haven't made much use of the information at this point
<BenC> We done some percentage checks on different things, but nothing of note
<PriceChild> <ompaul> Question: in the next eighteen months to two years do you think that wireless will start seeing more free drivers and less dependancy on blobs to get them working?
<BenC> I think we'll see more free drivers, but I don't think we'll ever get rid of things like firmware
<BenC> Certain vendors (*cough* Intel) are leading the way by example in releasing open source drivers for wireless. We will even see a daemonless ipw3945 driver during gutsy cycle
<PriceChild> <Riddell> QUESTION: are there plans to backport more drivers to dapper?  people occationally complain that it doesn't support hardware on new servers
<BenC> At UDS we plan to do a hw rev discussion for dapper, to create a set of updated drivers for it
<BenC> until recently, we haven't had the man power to do it
<PriceChild> <joebaker> QUESTION:  HW testing.  How about having a 60 MB boot CD that has a battery of Kernel tests that you can have people try as a live CD.  Use the hardware database to email people who have specific hardware that needs the testing.
<BenC> That's an excellent suggestion. Did I also hear you volunteer to make it? :)
<BenC> Seriously, that's just the kinds of ideas we need to get implemented.
<PriceChild> <ubuntu_demon> QUESTION : how's the future looking for suspend/hibernate on laptops ?
<BenC> The future always looks bright, it's finding the right path to get to get to the light that's hard....Suspend/Hibernate has been famously plagued by bad BIOS implementations, and broken drivers.
<BenC> There are efforts upstream to get rid fo the latter, but the former will always be out of our control. People can do things like report problems from the linux firmware kit to their vendors to make them aware.
<PriceChild> <el_isma> QUESTION: Does the kernel team need more help triaging the kernel related bugs in launchpad?
<BenC> YES! Triaging bugs is very time consuming. There's info on how you can help at various wiki pages on wiki.ubuntu.com, and specifically at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeamBugPolicies
<BenC> Note that kernel bug policy has some slight variations from most bugs in Ubuntu...it's a very specialized area
<BenC> We don't turn down any help, but knowing how we operate helps us all :)
<PriceChild> <Loic> QUESTION: Since you can't have all the hardware in the world (even though you might have some nice rigs) wouldn't it be possible to have a set of normal users, one or two for each main hw, that would be responsible to report any regression and help testing fixes (maybe opening a page for each hw like there is a page for each bug)?
<PriceChild> <Loic> COMMENT : By main hw I'm also thinking scanners/printers etc
<BenC> one or two isn't a problem...we get that just from ubuntu core-devs (collectively we cover every major bit of hw). It's the corner cases we have issues with, and finding people that have those corner cases, or even knowing what they are, is near impossible until the bug occurs.
<BenC> Yes, peripheral hw is very hard for us to test...something like that for those types of hw would be very helpful
<BenC> at the same time, those sorts of things are as high of a priority as say wireless cards, or SATA controllers
<BenC> *aren't
<PriceChild> <nansub0111> QUESTION: Ben,  you mentioned that the best way to get started with Kernel development is by diving in or reading the device drivers book. What is the best way to setup a development environment for kernel hacking. Specifically if one is interested in modifying the rt2500 wireless drivers. Thanks!
<BenC> for general hacking, it's easiest to just install: make, gcc and linux-headers-generic
<BenC> Then you can build something like that modularly and test it easily on your stock system. That reduces the time and variance which would occur with building an entire kernel.
<PriceChild> <rohan> QUESTION: how about merging suspend2 in the kernel ? it's more mature, and works beautifully out the box, as compared to swsusp
<BenC> Knew that was going to come up sooner or later :)
<BenC> suspend2 is another incredibly invasive patch that touches way too many stock source files, and makes our headaches worse, even compared to the benefit it may give you
<BenC> --> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelPatches
<BenC> For patches like this, the push should be made upstream as opposed to the distro level...
<PriceChild> <h4wk0> QUESTION: Why does the final version of fiesty not support my ati card (however herd 2 did) - Its an ati x1400  More at: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=399913
<BenC> That sounds incredibly like an Xorg question as opposed to a kernel question
<PriceChild> ooops sorry
<BenC> PriceChild: not your fault...Xorg is the kernel nemesis :)
<PriceChild> hehe i just clicked the link and saw that the fix required blacklisting a few modules...
<PriceChild> "fix"
<BenC> If anyone has specific questions regarding bug reports or other issues, the kernel team is always active in #ubuntu-kernel
<BenC> well, not _always_, but when we are, that's the place :)
<BenC> If you are interested in the kernel team and what we are doing, I strongly recommend subscribing to the kernel-team@lists.ubuntu.com mailing list and checking out https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam
<BenC> We've got about 5 more minutes. Any final questions?
<PriceChild> <torkiano> QUESTION: if a bug affect a driver what package is afected? kernel(linux-source-2.6.20) or the source of driver (rt2x00)
<BenC> I'm quite surprised the topic of kernel version for gutsy hasn't come up yet :)
<BenC> In that case, since the source code for that driver came from linux-source-2.6.20, that's where the bug can be fixed
<BenC> It's also very helpful to report the bug upstream, since they are the ones most familiar with the hw
<BenC> e.g. the rt2x00 project
<PriceChild> <Riddell> QUESTION: what version of linux will be used in gusty?
<BenC> Ah, someone saved the day :)
<BenC> It's %99.99 sure to be 2.6.22
<PriceChild> <h4wk0> QUESTION: Can we see all the ubuntu team in dresses please?
<PriceChild> <Riddell> QUESTION: Linus or Alan?
<PriceChild> uu serious one:
<BenC> h4wk0: Prepayment for cross-dressing requests can be sent to my paypal account
<PriceChild> <Riddell> QUESTION: how far branched is the ubuntu linux from linus's mainline?  and how much work needs to be done for each new upstream release?
<BenC> Oooh...it's actually branched lot more than I would like...we usually end up pulling in some other git tree like libata-dev#upstream for feisty
<BenC> But the Ubuntu patches are very limited
<BenC> it's usually not a lot of work since most "new" things we pulled in are already upstream by the time the next cycle starts
<PriceChild> <joebaker> QUESTION: ltspfs  It would be useful to allow a machine with lots of ram to share it over the network with machines which do not have much ram.  LTSP has a feature for providing swap.  Is there any chance we will see this sort of option in install routines to add swap space over the network?
<BenC> Looks like we're out of time. Thanks everyone for joining, and enjoy the rest of the week!
<PriceChild> oops sorry joebaker
<PriceChild> Thankyou very much BenC! :)
<BenC> joebaker: please pick up in #ubuntu-kernel
<BenC> PriceChild: thanks for handling questions
<PriceChild> My pleasure :)
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o poolie]  by PriceChild
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-classroom:PriceChild] : The Ubuntu Open Week is on right now! || See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek for the session times || https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules are the rules, please respect them || QUESTION: <insert question here> in #ubuntu-classroom-chat to ask questions.. chatting happens there too || Bazaar - Martin Pool
<gnomefreak> PriceChild: this is last session today? the bazaar one?
<PriceChild> gnomefreak, Yes.
<gnomefreak> k
<poolie> good morning class
<poolie> :-)
<gnomefreak> hello poolie
<poolie> i'm martin pool, i work on Bazaar at Canonical with jam-laptop
<poolie> and some other folks
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o jam-laptop]  by PriceChild
<poolie> Bazaar is a version control system designed to work well for ubuntu developers and to work well with launchpad
<poolie> and to be easy to learn and pleasant to use
<poolie> 'what is a version control system'?
<poolie> well it remembers the changes you have made to a source tree, so that you can go back and see why changes were made
<poolie> undo changes
<poolie> review incoming work
<poolie> merge in someone else's work,
<poolie> and publish your changes
<jam-laptop> Hi all
<poolie> there are many other systems, including cvs, svn, monotone, darcs, git, mercurial
<poolie> some of the distinguishing features of bazaar include:
<poolie> very good support for windows, mac and linux
<poolie> a simple user interface and attention to keeping it friendly
<poolie> a good python scripting api
<poolie> ability to host branches on any web or ftp or file server without needing to run a special daemon
<poolie> and very good handling of refactorings like renaming files or directories
<poolie> i'll look at some qns
<PriceChild> <zorglu_> QUESTION: so bazaar has been designed to fit ubuntu ? and this is not ubuntu which choosed to because it fitted its need ?
<poolie> thanks PriceChild
<poolie> ubuntu (well, Canonical) was originally basing our work on Arch, an existing system
<poolie> and contributing patches to that
<PriceChild> <KalleDK> QUESTIONS What are the pros and cons versus SVN
<poolie> it wasn't really going in the direction we thought was best, so we started a new system taking the parts we liked from Arch
<poolie> the pros: no need for a central server, can commit and do other work while disconnected,
<poolie> much better merge tracking and smarter merging
<poolie> cons: mostly that it's a younger system, so somewhat less polished, less tools integration, etc
<PriceChild> How does bazaar do without a central server to track everything?
<poolie> but we plan to go 1.0 in a few months, and there is some work towards gnome, eclipse and visual studio integration
<poolie> in Bazaar, each branch lives at a url, and carries a description of its history, including what has been merged in to it
<poolie> when you merge from one branch to another, the system works out what's different between them and what has to be done
<poolie> let's try it!
<poolie> on ubuntu, apt-get install bzr
<poolie> then cd to some suitable directory (like your home)
<poolie> and do
<poolie> bzr branch http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~mbp/+junk/seminar
<poolie> after a little while, this will give you a toy source  tree i made for this project
<poolie> <awkorama> QUESTION: So client side bazaar is just a bunch of scripts and server-side it can be only one ftp server?
<poolie> awkorama: uh not just "a bunch of scripts" :-), a suite of lovingly hand-crafted python modules :-)
<poolie> that give you one program 'bzr' with various commands
<poolie> on the server side it can be an ftp, sftp, http, server
<poolie> or you can run the bazaar 'smart server' which is somewhat faster, and will become much faster in future releases
<poolie> <mc44> question: why bother to make it work well with mac and windows?
<poolie> mc44, good qn
<poolie> it's  because many open source projects, even if their core developers only use ubuntu, end up being ported to Windows
<poolie> it can be a pain to support windows but if you keep it in mind during the design it's not that bad
<poolie> <Monika|K> QUESTION: Bazaar works well for Linux and Ubuntu. Does it also work well for other types of software development, i.e. could/should/will it replace CVS/SVN eventually?
<poolie> yes, it does
<poolie> it's used by a number of people for internal/commercial development
<poolie> i would say it's certainly an improvement on cvs, and depending on your situation could well be better than svn
<jam-laptop> I would also like to point out that we have the ability to interoperate with an upstream SVN server
<jam-laptop> with the bzr-svn plugin
<poolie> oh good point
<poolie> jam-
<jam-laptop> Which allows you to pull changes from SVN, do your commits in bzr, and (if you have commit rights to SVN) lets you merge your changes back
<jam-laptop> https://launchpad.net/bzr-svn is the project page
<poolie> <dabaR> I only got one file, hello when I branched his URL
<poolie> if you ran that command "bzr branch http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~mbp/+junk/seminar" you should have got a directory 'seminar'
<poolie> containing one file, 'hello'
<poolie> with some text in it
<poolie> if you cd to that directory and run 'bzr log'
<poolie> then you should see that i created it early this morning
<poolie> ddaa points out there is also a hidden directory .bzr which contains our control files
<jam-laptop> nansub0111: QUESTION:does the bzr-svn plug-in work the other way as well too? Suppose I use bzr locally for version control, but the public repository is subversion. Thanks
<jam-laptop> nansub0111: COMMENT:I should clarify I want to use subversion only for releasing public files
<jam-laptop> There is some work to support serving SVN information from a bzr repositor.
<jam-laptop> repository
<jam-laptop> so people with only an SVN client can still check out your source code
<poolie> you can push back into svn from bzr
<jam-laptop> I believe the basic "checkout" support is functional, but you cannot commit yet.
<poolie> as an alternative approach
<poolie> oh maybe not then
<jam-laptop> nansub0111: jam-laptop: I ask because i am using googlecode to host a project, but all of my version control is done with bazaar.
<jam-laptop> For this setup, bzr-svn would definitely work
<jam-laptop> you could do your work locally using bzr
<jam-laptop> and then merge/commit back to googlecode's svn repository
<jam-laptop> poolie: mc44: QUESTION: sabdfl has talking about the importance of revision control in freedom even other than code. Can bazaar be used for non code applications? what sort of applications do you think it could be useful f
<poolie> mc44: you can certainly use it for documentation, web content
<poolie> other things that are not code but look a bit more like code
<poolie> i agree with mark about the importance of free collaboration on other things
<poolie> bazaar at the moment is a bit biased towards "things that look like code"
<poolie> eg you cannot comfortably commit very large binary files
<poolie> but the real issue in collaborating on, say, graphics or music
<poolie> is that it is sometimes hard to merge the changes if two people have modified them
<PriceChild> <Xk2c> QUESTION: will pakages be handeld via bzr in future?
<poolie> yes, they will
<poolie> at the moment some packages are maintained in bazaar trees,
<poolie> and there are some tools to help you do this
<PriceChild> launchpad is managing some sources in bzr isn't it?
<poolie> there is a list of these packages on the ubuntu wiki i believe
<poolie> launchpad does a few things with bazaar
<poolie> bazaar is the way that launchpad thinks about code, if you like
<poolie> firstly, it can host your branches so other people can get them
<poolie> like the url i gave above
<poolie> and it provides a directory of branches, like
<poolie> https://code.launchpad.net/~bzr
<poolie> these branches are owned by the 'bzr' group, and any of us can commit to them
<poolie> you can see that some of them are linked to bugs
<poolie> and if you click through you can also see the code within them
<poolie> launchpad also provides a service of automated imports from svn or cvs to bzr
<poolie> i need to catch up on qns!
<poolie> <ucap> QUESTION: Is there a tutorial somewhere? What other resources would you recommend to get to know bazaar?
<poolie> ucap, there is on bazaar-vcs,org,
<poolie> and there are usually people in #bzr on freenode who can help
<poolie> or write to bazaar@lists.ubuntu.com
<poolie> <tekNico> QUESTION: Is BazaarNG ever going to get small, simple *and* fast as Mercurial? ;-)
<poolie> tekNico: yes, we're *very focused* on speed and it's getting faster in every release
<poolie> many thanks due to jam-laptop in that area
<poolie> <jam-laptop> for an example of a non-code project using ubuntu: https://code.launchpad.net/spreadubuntu/
<PriceChild> I'm keeping a list of qns unanswered so far :)
<poolie> <alienSkull> QUESTION: Do you use Bazaar while developing Bazaar?
<poolie> alienSkull: yes of course,
<poolie> like many ubuntu-related projects we do review of new contributions
<poolie> when people post new patches to the list, it's caught  by http://bundlebuggy.aaronbentley.com/
<poolie> which keeps track of the review comments, and uses bzr to find out when they're merged
<poolie> PriceChild: next?
<PriceChild> <zorglu_> QUESTION: what is the status of the eclipse plugin ? how stable it is, can i feel confident that it wont crash my precious source code ? :)
<poolie> zorglu_: sorry i don't know off hand, i don't use eclipse
<poolie> best to ask on the list
<jam-laptop> I've followed it a bit
<jam-laptop> It is still pretty early on
<jam-laptop> Since it uses bzr as the back end
<jam-laptop> it won't "crash your precious source code"
<jam-laptop> But it may get fussy when you try to use it.
<jam-laptop> Since Eclipse needs to be taught how to think like bzr.
<PriceChild> dabaR, would like to see the continuation of the demo you were doing poolie.
<poolie> ok
<poolie> so at least one person now has a copy of my code
<poolie> now edit 'hello' in your favourite editor
<poolie> add a line of text or two
<poolie> save/exit
<poolie> and run 'bzr diff'
<poolie> and it shows you what you've change
<poolie> and 'bzr status' summarizes that
<poolie> this should be familiar from cvs or svn
<poolie> you can now 'bzr commit'
<poolie> this may be surprising - you don't have write access to my branch - but you can do it into your new local branch
<poolie> now try 'bzr log' and it should show your change following mine
<PriceChild> <ranf_> QUESTION: how do I see where it got commited to?
<poolie> i'll let people catch up...
<poolie> that's kind of an interesting question
<poolie> it gets committed to whatever branch you're currently in
<PriceChild> <Demon012> QUESTION: How do you tell bazaar to commit to another location like for an example an FTP Server?
<poolie> Demon012: you can do this in two ways
<poolie> if you want to commit directly there, every time you type commit
<poolie> then you should make a branch on the server with bzr init, then from your machine do 'bzr bind ftp://euthaoeuthaoeu'
<poolie> but what i'm going to recommend here is
<poolie> that you instead push your changes to the server after you've made them
<poolie> so you can do 'bzr push URL'
<poolie> where URL is an sftp or ftp url
<poolie> if you have a launchpad account with ssh keys, you can push there
<poolie> with bzr push sftp://bazaar.launchpad.net/~mbp/+junk/seminar
<poolie> change 'mbp' to your name
<poolie> branches on launchpad need to be associated with a product, here we have "+junk" to say it's not
<poolie> next qn?
<jam-laptop> nealmcb: QUESTION: I'd like to use bzr to manage changes to configurations in /etc and maybe other places.  The documentation mentions this, but I'd love to see best practices or examples tailored to sysadmin.    And I'd love to be able to host the repository somewhere other than in /etc or / itself.
<jam-laptop> That is a more involved situation
<jam-laptop> and some people have certainly thought about it a bit
<jam-laptop> The #1 solution I've seen, is that you version the tree in another location
<jam-laptop> and then use symlinks to point into it.
<jam-laptop> This lets you version sub-pieces of /etc in different branches
<jam-laptop> and keeps the VCS data separated from the running files
<jam-laptop> poolie: dAndy: QUESTION: Is bzr entirely python or is there C mixed in for better performance? What else is being done to improve performance?
<poolie> at the moment the main release is all python, but we will likely add C soon,
<poolie> actually pyrex, a python-like language that compiles to C
<jam-laptop> I think in general we have focused on getting the right algorithm in python
<poolie> the main things we're doing on performance atm are doing less io, and doing more efficient network traffic
<jam-laptop> It is much easier to switch from a O(N^2) algorithm to an O(logN) one in python
<jam-laptop> and once we have that, we can optimize for C/Python speeds
<jam-laptop> Rather than trying to make a really fast C O(N^2) algorithm, that will always end up slow
<poolie> <ranf_> COMMENT: for the push I had to include my LP username like so "bzr push sftp://user@bazaar.launchpad.net/..."
<poolie> ranf: ah true, i have the same name on my machine
<poolie> <Demon012> QUESTION: is there any web based bazaar clients that can be used to submit changes to a branch? or even to just view the contents revisions to them?
<poolie> there is nothing to submit changes atm - that would be good for documentation
<poolie> you can use 'loggerhead' to view the contents and revisions
<jam-laptop> https://launchpad.net/loggerhead
<jam-laptop> which is set up at
<poolie> <dabaR> 16:48 < rulus> Question: how to get your change to poolie's branch?
<poolie> you can get your changes in in several ways:
<poolie> if you had write access (which you don't here) then just push in directly
<poolie> otherwise, i need to merge it
<jam-laptop> An example is: http://codebrowse.launchpad.net/~bzr/bzr/trunk
<poolie> you can do 'bzr bundle' to produce a text file you can mail to me
<poolie> or you can post the public url (eg http) into -chat, and i'll merge from there
<poolie> <ucap> QUESTION: How important is launchpad for the success of bazaar and/or vice-versa?
<poolie> ucap: they're pretty complimentary, and we work closely together
<poolie> i think launchpad is exciting because it can have such an integrated view of the code
<poolie> and bazaar because launchpad gives you a centralized view that's otherwise missing - helping you find the branches that fix different bugs for example
<poolie> <KalleDK> QUESTION How about roll back.. is that merge a earlier version and commit as svn or is there a rollback feature
<poolie> to revert your working directory, 'bzr revert'
<poolie> see also uncommit, and 'bzr revert -r -2' to discard changes from the last two, or 'bzr merge -r -20..-19' to reverse one change
<poolie> one minute to live!
<jam-laptop> I would also comment that we have "bzr uncommit"
<poolie> thanks very much, interesting questions
<jam-laptop> in case you want to throw away changes from your branch completely.
<jam-laptop> You are all also welcome in #bzr on this server
<jam-laptop> Feel free to ask questions there
<poolie> thanks jam
#ubuntu-classroom 2007-04-24
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-m]  by PriceChild
<Merchelo> thanks everyone
<dabaR> j
<KalleDK_Lap> See you tommorow
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-oooo AndrewB apokryphos elkbuntu gnomefreak]  by PriceChild
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-oooo imbrandon jam-laptop poolie PriceChild]  by PriceChild
<rulus> thanks poolie and jam-laptop for the great session
<bertux> thanks poolie and jam-laptop for the great session ;)
<bertux> bye, see you on thursday
<festival_gai1> bye
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o PriceChild]  by ChanServ
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-classroom:PriceChild] : The Ubuntu Open Week recommences at 15:00 UTC || See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek for the session times || https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules are the rules, please respect them || QUESTION: <insert question here> in #ubuntu-classroom-chat to ask questions.. chatting happens there too
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o PriceChild]  by ChanServ
<AndrewB> :)
<delmorep> hi
<KalleDK_Lap> Your a little late or quite early for a hi :P
<erigazio> hey!... I have a problem with amarok... it won't play any mp3, i all ready installed the restricted package...
<KalleDK_Lap> erigazio join #ubuntu
<delmorep> hi
<Nergar> hello?
<Jack313> helo
<Jack313> we want more ubuntu talks!
<tonyyarusso> lol, soon
* Jack313 starts one
<Toma-> Jack313 QUESTION: What will you be talking about? :)
<SportChick> nw 7
<Jack313> Toma: today we will be talking about KDE + Beryl
<Jack313> Let me start out saying , my work with ubuntu
<Jack313> 20:08]  <-- tbodine has left this channel ("Would there be a sequel?").
<Jack313> [20:08]  <crdlb> ...and it's back up
<Jack313> [20:12]  <-- Smegzor has left this server (" Like VS.net's GUI?  Then try HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <-").
<Jack313> [20:21]  --> micahcowan has joined this channel (n=micah@ubuntu/member/micahcowan).
<Jack313> [20:25]  --> Toma- has joined this channel (n=e17@203-59-13-104.dyn.iinet.net.au).
<Jack313> [20:34]  <-- ryaku has left this server (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
<Jack313> [20:34]  --> ryaku has joine
<Jack313> fuck
<tonyyarusso> !paste
<ubotu> pastebin is a service to post large texts so you don't flood the channel. The Ubuntu pastebin is at http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org (make sure you give us the URL for your paste - see also the #ubuntu channel topic)
<Jack313> sorry,
<Toma-> youre not a very good speaker :<
<Jack313> tonyyarusso, i know, i acciently hit paste
<Jack313> :X
<tonyyarusso> been there
<Toma-> Jack313 QUESTION: Do you have to copy and paste in the channel?
* Jack313 apologizes for potty mouth
<tonyyarusso> lol Toma-
* micahcowan larts Jack313 for highlighting his name and a bunch of other folks' :)
<Toma-> :)
<Jack313> Toma: Yes!
<Jack313> haha
<micahcowan> Toma- lol
<tbodine> Thank you micahcowan.
<tbodine> :\
<Jack313> First off, let me say my contribution to ubuntu has been enormrous, i practically wrote the kernels , and KDE
<tbodine> Yeah, me too.
<Jack313> I will now be taking questions
<tbodine> Jack313, QUESTION: What's your favourite colour?
<john> QUESTION: So how awesome do you think it felt to work for you?
<john> like, everyone was fighting to work for free for you, because of your super programming skills.
<Jack313> tbodine, probably orange, hence ubuntu is themed orange
<Jack313> wel, i didnt have anyone working below me, or anyone else
<Jack313> i did everything myself,
<john> I mean, when you wrote the kernel, we were all like "wow! a kernel in a week!".
<Nergar> QUESTION: Are u high?
<Toma-> Jack313: QUESTION: What is Pi equal to?
<john> but then you wrote KDE in one night on a full sheet of acid.
<john> that's when we knew to stick around
<Jack313> Toma=415926535897932384626433832795028841971693993751058209749445923078164062862089986280348253421170679
<Toma-> lies!
<Jack313> err Toma=3.415926535897932384626433832795028841971693993751058209749445923078164062862089986280348253421170679
<Toma-> thats better
<Nergar> lol
<Jack313> haha
<tbodine> Jack313, QUESTION: As a follow up to Toma-'s question that you answered so horribly, there are at least another three decimal places, what is e equal to?
<Nergar> 3.415926535897932384626433832795028841971693993751058209749445923078164062862089986280348253421170679...
<Jack313> 2.718
<tbodine> Jack313, wrong.
<tbodine> I have no more trust in you, master programmer.
<Jack313> I have a question, if you guys are sooo smart, WHAT i equal to????????/
<Jack313> huh
<Jack313> ?
<Jack313> bring it
<tbodine> (And Pi isn't even close to 3.4159 . . .)
<Toma-> Jack313: I = Toma-.
<Jack313> lol damn it, i mean 3.14 :(
* Jack313 hates pasting and retyping
<tbodine> (It's 3.14159265358979323846264338327950288419716939937510582 . . . )
<Jack313> i know
<tbodine> Jeez.
<tbodine> You have failed me, Jack313!
<Jack313> hey
<Jack313> listen
<Jack313> tell me what i =?
<Jack313> yeh, thats what i thought, you cant
<tbodine> I == tbodine.
<Jack313> no i = sqrt(-1)
<Toma-> U = Jack313
<Jack313> now whos the elite program
<Jack313> er
<tbodine> Most elite programmers can spell programmer..
<Jack313> LISTEN, ALL QUESTIONS IN UBUNTU-CLASSROOM-CHAT
<Jack313> i am now setting +m
<Toma-> QUESTION: What is the sound of one hand clapping?
* Jack313 sets mode #ubuntu-classroom +m
<tbodine> ...
* tonyyarusso might actually, wanna go to -chat or #ubuntu-offtopic ?
* Toma- sets mode #ubuntu-classroom -m
<Jack313> who
<Jack313> tonyyarusso, im trying to present, but these people are not very courteous
* tbodine sets mode #ubuntu-classroom +tbodine-rocks-your-face
<tbodine> Sorry, I'm done.
<Toma-> tonyyarusso: this is the equivalent of chit-chat before class starts :D
<tonyyarusso> Toma-: That never happens.  ;)
* Jack313 sets mode #ubuntu-classroom +tbodine-is-a-noob
* Toma- throws a paper airplane
* Jack313 puts pins a teachers chair
<Jack313> :D
* Nergar goes out to recess :)
<Toma-> QUESTION: If a number of bugs can be fixed by simply installing the latest version, can you close it with "FIXED UPSTREAM"?
<tonyyarusso> Toma-: example?
<Toma-> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/edgy/+source/librsvg
<Toma-> :)
<Toma-> hang on
<Toma-> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/librsvg/+bug/76435
<tonyyarusso> !info librsvg feisty
<ubotu> Package librsvg does not exist in feisty
<tonyyarusso> err
<Toma-> !info librsvg2-2
<ubotu> librsvg2-2: SAX-based renderer library for SVG files (runtime). In component main, is optional. Version 2.16.0-0ubuntu2 (feisty), package size 127 kB, installed size 300 kB
<Toma-> http://ftp.gnome.org/pub/GNOME/sources/librsvg/2.16/librsvg-2.16.1.changes
<tonyyarusso> Toma-: You would close the bug once the upstream version is in Ubuntu.
<Toma-> ahh right
<tonyyarusso> You may or may not be able to get it fixed in Feisty - poke the maintainer to see, otherwise Gutsy.
<Toma-> yeh ive been told its in deb unstable
<Toma-> so itll be in gutsy, but theres a diff available for 2.16.0 aswell to patch all those bugs :(
<tonyyarusso> It's in main, so there's a pretty decent chance of getting it updated in Feisty yet
<Toma-> cool. ill test the other bugs and if theyre fixed by it, ill kick and scream a little louder.
<Toma-> launchpad reports the maintainer doesnt use launchpad :|
<tonyyarusso> Toma-: try dholbach then (last uploader)
<Jack313> hmm
<Jack313> does mounting images use disk space?
<Nergar> no
<Jack313> i was just testing you guys
<Jack313> good job
<srikanthssn> !pastebin
<ubotu> pastebin is a service to post large texts so you don't flood the channel. The Ubuntu pastebin is at http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org (make sure you give us the URL for your paste - see also the #ubuntu channel topic)
<lau> hello/quit
* popey gets the jitters
<poningru> heh
<tonytiger> popey: You've got /hours/ to go yet
<tonytiger> :)
<Jack313> hmm
* popey starts typing furiously
<Jack313> popey
<Jack313> you doing a presenttaion
<popey> i am
<Jack313> give us a sneek peak
<Jack313> :D
<popey> heh
* Jack313 is too bored at 12:30am
<popey> http://doc.ubuntu.com/screencasts/ there, sneak peek
<popey> :)
<Jack313> whats this , a speech on dual booting/installing ubuntu?
<popey> no
<popey> check the open week schedule
<popey> which is conveniently in the /topic of this very channel :)
* Jack313 to lazy
* Jack313 dunno what screencast means
* tonytiger nods
<popey> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Screencasting
<Jack313> ah, those are cool
<ajmitch> popey: started on the talk yet?
* Jack313 has used em for adobe photoshop/after effects tutorials
<popey> yus
<ajmitch> wonderful :)
<popey> about an hour ago :)
<popey> pondering how much to do
* Jack313 hands popey a cheeseburger
<ajmitch> about 40 minutes worth :)
<popey> some talks so far have had 15-20 mins talk, then questions, others have been 5 mins
<tonytiger> Wow, so much more preparation than your LUG talks :)
<popey> oh jeez
<ajmitch> leave time for Q&A
<popey> hahah
<popey> i think i spent about 10 mins preparing for the LUG talk on VirtualBox
<popey> did it show? :)
<tonytiger> Your one slide?
<tonytiger> No.
* ajmitch wonders if he should turn up at the local LUG meeting tomorrow night
<tonytiger> The one slide that you had thoughtfully CC licenced?
<popey> \o/ LUGs
<popey> yes, I am good like that
<tonytiger> The one slide that had your name on it. :)
<tonytiger> And the name of the talk.
<tonytiger> And nothing else.
<tonytiger> Other than the CC licence info. :)
<popey> it had a background image iirc?
<popey> a tux
<tonytiger> Oooh, kudos.
<ajmitch> sounds like a lot of thought went into it
<tonytiger> we need sarcasm.popey.com
<popey> oh a lot of *thought* went in
<popey> we do
<popey> http://handbag.popey.com/ will do for now
<Jack313> hmm, will the next kubuntu release have kde 4?
<popey> Jack313: is kde 4 out or due out?
<tonytiger> :)
<Jack313> due out
* Jack313 loves kde+beryl
<ajmitch> due out at approx the same time as gutsy
<ajmitch> so I really doubt that kde4 will be the default desktop
<popey> 23rd oct 2007
<popey> http://techbase.kde.org/Schedules/KDE4/4.0_Release_Schedule
<ajmitch> yes, and gutsy should be out on the 18th
<popey> heh
<ajmitch> so it'd have to be frozen 3-4 weeks beforehand at the latest
<popey> that's a "no" then
<ajmitch> pretty much
<Jack313> poo
<popey> tonytiger: what pic on sarcasm though?
<tonytiger> Hmm, give me a min.
* popey gets dns ready
<tonytiger> :)
<tonytiger> http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q29/sunangelhl/sarcasm.jpg
<tonytiger> heh :)
<popey> hah
<tonytiger> http://www.leonardrossiter.com/reginaldperrin/36004.jpg
<popey> http://sarcasm.popey.com/
<popey> i really should implement dynamic pictures
<tonytiger> popey: nice :)
<tonytiger> A productive morning already.
<popey> \o/
<Jack313> you know what would be an awesome talk, something on must have apps for ubuntu :D
<popey> surely they are already installed, evolution, firefox.. etc :)
<Jack313> well besides obvious ones
<Jack313>  :P
<Demon012> something that should be discussed imo is are we using the correct default apps with ubuntu
<Demon012> for example exaile imo hands down beats rythmbox (that's my opinion and exaile should be left for a bit yet as it is pretty new but maybe gutsy+1)
* Jack313 dunno what those are
<Demon012> music management / players
<Jack313> ah
<Jack313> well the coolest software i got soo far is beryl of course
<Demon012> both also are able to put music on iPod's
<jdzitro> what featues does exaile have that rythmbox doesn't?
<Demon012> dynamic playlist generation
<Demon012> that's the first one that comes to mind
<jdzitro> can you explain this?
<Demon012> yeah sure
<jdzitro> like you put in categories and it generates from your library?
<Demon012> will do my best anyway as I am not overly sure how it works all in all
<Demon012> you add all your music to your library and based on ratings which I guess it generates while your listening it picks the next track for you
<Demon012> I have noticed it uses a rating system for each track and if you skip the track before you get over half way through it it will decrease the rating on it
<Demon012> which makes it less likely to play that track again
<jdzitro> oh, ok.
<Demon012> I also believe it must get information off the internet about what tracks are similar to what your listening to atm as it does a pretty good job at it
<jdzitro> what about as far as interface? i enjoy using rhythmbox, but i find the interface a little troublesome.
<Demon012> interface is much cleaner than rhythmbox's
<Demon012> that was the first thing I thought when I saw rhythmbox... yuck =)
<jdzitro> im going to install exaile right now and take a look.
<Demon012> would you like a screenshot jdzitro?
<Demon012> jdzitro: get the one off of the exaile site not the one from the repos
<Demon012> the one in the repos is old
<jdzitro> i just used automatix2...
<Demon012> oh ok cool not sure where it gets it from
<Demon012> morning `23meg
<jdzitro> its ver. 0.2.8 if that helps
<Demon012> yeah that's the old version
<Demon012> 0.2.9 is the current
<elkbuntu> !automatix
<ubotu> Automatix2 is a proprietary script that tries to install some software, and often fails and breaks systems. We don't provide support for it, and we strongly discourage its use. Problems caused by Automatix are often hard to track and solve, and it might sometimes be easier to !install a fresh copy of Ubuntu. See also !WorksForMe
<Demon012> mm does that work for exaile
<Demon012> !exaile
<ubotu> Sorry, I don't know anything about exaile - try searching on http://bots.ubuntulinux.nl/factoids.cgi
<Demon012> nop =/
<`23meg> mroning
<Demon012> jdzitro: http://www.exaile.org/trac/wiki/Releases
<Demon012> that is where you can get the latest
<Jack313> oh yeh, i got automatix2 , its pretty nice
<popey> :( automatix2
<Jack313> are the fbi gona come to my house cause i downloaded the dvd codecs
<Jack313> :p
<Demon012> lol Jack313 I doubt it
<Jack313> not that i did, just entertaining the possibility
<Jack313> D:D
<Demon012> they hopefully have better things to do with their time than chase people downloading dvd codecs
<tonytiger> Jack313: Could always move to a more liberal country
<`23meg> Jack313, watch the "christian rock" episode of south park
* Jack313 to lazy to go dl it
<Jack313> what hapens?
<Demon012> http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=2594403436669124408&q=south+park+christian+rock
<Demon012> is that the one `23meg
<`23meg> it is
<Demon012> heh that's funny
<`23meg> the guys download mp3s from soulseek and the fbi raids their house instantly, and events unfold..
<Demon012> lol
<Jack313> haha
<jdzitro> Demon012 i have the newer version installed
<Demon012> cool
<Demon012> tell me what you think
<Demon012> btw the dynamic playlist generation is a checkbox below the playlist on the right
<jdzitro> got it :-)
<Demon012> just add a song from your song library after you have added it to the media library in it
<Demon012> and away it goes =)
<Demon012> amaroK has the same thing too but that is made for KDE and sticks out like a sore thumb
<Demon012> unfortunately there are no global keyboard shortcuts implemented in exaile yet
<Demon012> that's the one thing I want for this program to be complete
<jdzitro> oh. ya, that would help a lot.
<Jack313> you know what i liked the most of ubuntu, on my basically new laptop, i installed it and everything worked
<jdzitro> when i press play, it does nothing.
<Jack313> wifi/special touch keys the quickplay HP keys for audio/ etc
<Demon012> mm?? have you got the gstreamer plugins installed?
<Jack313> and finally, a battery meter that shows time remaining
<jdzitro> i thought so
<Jack313> the HP models dont have that
<jdzitro> i really like that about ubuntu as well! makes everything easy but i am able to tailor things to my liking.
<Demon012> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/RestrictedFormats
<Demon012> just do it again to check that isn't the problem
<Demon012> there is a new way in feisty aswell
<jdzitro> Oh! i didn't know that
<jdzitro> why does stuff like that change with a new release?
<Demon012> they try to make it easier
<Demon012> and or something else changes that makes the guide have to change
<jdzitro> the guide is my bible
<Demon012> mmm apparently I cannot do the 7.04 way =S (just checked to see if Ubuntu Restricted Extra's was where it said it was but its not there =S)
<Demon012> must be because I dist-upgraded
<Demon012> mmm maybe I should bug report that
<jdzitro> i am able to Play with rythmbox
<Demon012> mmm anyone else here upgrade for edgy to feisty here that can check for me?
<Demon012> mmm not sure why you cannot play in exaile jdzitro always seemed to just work for me after I got the codecs installed
<Demon012> mmm something you could try
<Demon012> open up a terminal and run exaile from there
<Demon012> it will tell you what it is doing then in the terminal
<jdzitro> thats where i had to run it from because it didnt show up in my main menu
<Demon012> might tell you why it cannot play the music
<jdzitro> would you like to see the output?
<Demon012> yeah if you like (I am not an expert but I may be able to help)
<jdzitro> $ exaile
<jdzitro> You have entered an invalid option
<jdzitro> /usr/local/share/exaile/xl/xlmisc.py:42: DeprecationWarning: the module egg.trayicon is deprecated; equivalent functionality can now be found in pygtk 2.10
<jdzitro>   import egg.trayicon
<jdzitro> /usr/lib/python2.5/site-packages/mutagen/m4a.py:41: DeprecationWarning: mutagen.m4a is deprecated; use mutagen.mp4 instead.
<jdzitro>   "mutagen.m4a is deprecated; use mutagen.mp4 instead.", DeprecationWarning)
<Demon012> you can safely ignore the tray thing and the mutagen thing
<Demon012> they are just warnings not errors of any sort
<jdzitro> it's working. i am not sure why.
<Demon012> they just say the python functions the author has used have been replaced by newer versions
<Demon012> ?? its playing the music now?
<jdzitro> yes
<Demon012> mmm odd
<jdzitro> ok. before, i was dragging tracks to the playlist and then trying to double-click on them to play. didn't work. highlighted and pressed play. didn't work. double-clicked on tracks in the collection tab on the left and it plays.
<Demon012> mmm maybe you have found a bug there
<Demon012> I have always just double clicked tracks or right click and append to playlisted them
<Demon012> hold on I will try it
<Demon012> mmm doesn't like just playing if you hit the play button but if you double click them in the playlist it starts playing
<jdzitro> right
<jdzitro> and i have a playlist now of one artist but i can't skip to the next track :-\
<jdzitro> or stop
<Demon012> yay soad - aerials =)
<jdzitro> scroll is fine
<Demon012> mm not sure about tha
<Demon012> next definitely works here
<jdzitro> very good song
<Demon012> and back for that matter
<jdzitro> it might have to do with the fact that i installed with automatix2 and then went straight to terminal for the newer version
<Demon012> mmm not sure m8
<Demon012> goto help->about
<jdzitro> i closed the program but it is still playing lol
<Demon012> see what version it says
<Demon012> ah it isn't closed
<Demon012> its in your notification area
<jdzitro> it was 0.2.9
<jdzitro> oh haha
<Demon012> another thing I love about it heh =)
<jdzitro> wont quit
<Demon012> right click on the icon in notification are and click quit
<jdzitro> it wont
<Demon012> or file quit
<jdzitro> ....system monitor
<Demon012> just close your console window then if you have one open
<Demon012> or in the console window hold CTRL and press C
<jdzitro> i dont
<Demon012> lol ok radical method here
<Demon012> hold ALT press F2
<Demon012> type xkill
<Demon012> click on the exaile window
<Demon012> just don't click anything else
<Demon012> else it will close immediately
<jdzitro> nice.
<Demon012> useful command that is
<jdzitro> ill have to remember that one
<Demon012> don't know why it wouldn't close
<jdzitro> ive managed to freeze linux before lol
<Demon012> and me on a lot of occasions
<Demon012> I ask a lot of linux lol
<Demon012> 90% of the freezes are due to X though =/
<jdzitro> i think that has been the cause of most of my problems too
<Demon012> but some are total hard lock freezes and you cannot SSH to the computer
<Demon012> yeah X is a pita for that and I am tempted to start a thread on the forums to see if there is some keyboard shortcuts I do not know about to get out of those locks
<Demon012> I know CTRL + ALT + Backspace
<Demon012> that resets X
<jdzitro> i use that now and then
<Demon012> loses everything in the process though
<jdzitro> its better than having to reset though
<Demon012> they need a get outta jail free card for X
<LoCusF> lol :)
<Demon012> see he agrees with me =)
<jdzitro> haha
<Demon012> I have been hearing a lot of good things about X.Org 7.3 though so maybe we will get one then
<jdzitro> i can't wait for things like that to improve
<Demon012> yeah same m8
<Demon012> infact I am tempted to start running development releases instead of the current stableish non LTS version of ubuntu
<Demon012> did it once before and didn't get a lot of problems
<Demon012> and it is nice to be on the bleeding edge
<Demon012> just a bit risky
<jdzitro> interesting. i haven't run an LTS yet. yes, i like to be on the edge myself
<Demon012> yeah dapper is the only thing that will run on my mums old computer
<jdzitro> i figure all of my important files are on an external drive anyway so i am free to experiment and break my filesystem down
<Demon012> the xorg in edgy broke the savage graphics driver it needs
<Demon012> ah good you have a good partition setup aswell then =)
<Demon012> yeah that's what I do
<jdzitro> i have an ati video card which i found out the hard way makes things more difficult
<Demon012> I have a 20 GB main partition with boot and all that stuff on there
<Demon012> and home is on another partition
<jdzitro> same here!
<Demon012> works perfectly
<jdzitro> may i ask, what is your experience in dual-booting linux and window$
<Demon012> doing it right now
<jdzitro> i can't seem to get windows to work anymore.
<Demon012> got win xp and fiesty on here
<Demon012> how come what's it upto?
<Demon012> got a juicy error message for me =)?
* Demon012 is an expert windows user but only an average linux user he would say
<jdzitro> not so much, no. i installed windows xp (legal, new copy) and then edgy for the bootloader.
<Demon012> well don't know if expert but advanced
<jdzitro> :-)
<Demon012> mm does it stop at grub then?
<jdzitro> i booted into windows a couple times and then back to linux.
<Demon012> if you select windows xp in the list what does it say?
<jdzitro> i went to boot windows and after grub selection of xp the progress bar loader ....splash screen comes up and freezes
<Demon012> ok I'll let you finish explaining before I bombard you with questions =)
<Demon012> argh I hate when that happens
<jdzitro> i always end up resetting. then it froze every time and i havent been in windows since.
<jdzitro> ive installed and re-installed....
<Demon012> erm have you tried tapping F8 like crazy just after you select windows xp from grub?
<Demon012> (it brings up boot options like safe mode etc)
<jdzitro> no. it usually brings it up automatically becuase it didn't "shutdown correctly"
<Demon012> any luck getting into safe mode then?
<Demon012> or does that hang aswell?
<jdzitro> ill choose last known good configuration and ive used normal mode because i wouldnt know what to do to fix anything in safe mode.
<Demon012> mmm I think that may be your only option =/
<jdzitro> try to boot into safe mode and...?
<Demon012> the things that come to mind with your problem are:
<Demon012> a dodgy driver has been installed that is preventing your computer from booting correctly
<Demon012> your filesystem needs repairing with chkdsk /f
<Demon012> argh
<Demon012> hold on
<jdzitro> not a problem
<Demon012> that was meant to be a multiline message
<Demon012> just showed the last line
<Demon012> the problem you are getting with windows can be caused by a few things but the things that come to mind are:
<Demon012> you have a dodgy driver that windows does not like and it is refusing to load it correctly and just stopping
<Demon012> or you have a damaged system file
<Demon012> or you have a filesystem error which you can fix by running chkdsk /f
<jdzitro> thats surprising because its a brand new install.
<Demon012> mm you booted into it once before yes>
<Demon012> ?
<Demon012> did you install any drivers?
<jdzitro> a couple times but that was after a few errors
<Demon012> or even more specifically did you by any chance install  daemon tools (that has caused this to happen to me before and I had to go into safemode and physically delete the driver)
<jdzitro> all i was able to install was ati drivers, firefox, steam and trillian before i couldnt use it anymore. but it would freeze even on the last restart of the installation process.
<Demon012> mmm could have been the ati drivers =S
<Demon012> or one of the drivers windows update  installed automatically
<jdzitro> i turn them off.
<Demon012> ok that eliminates that then
<Demon012> have you tried going into safemode and using system restore?
<Demon012> (never works usually but worth trying)
<jdzitro> both true.
<jdzitro> i guess i was hoping i could paste something into the dos-prompt and make it all better :)
<jdzitro> i really like linux.
<Demon012> same here m8
<Demon012> if there is a problem it tells you what the hell it is
<jdzitro> YES
<Demon012> rather than mwahahaha start guessing!
<jdzitro> lol
<Demon012> and what the bloody hell is the point in illegal operations!?!? they are of use to no one but the person who developed the software
<jdzitro> i never understood that box at all. always just made me mad.
<Demon012> don't know what the hell you are meant to be able to achieve if you are not told anything useful about the problem that occurred
<jdzitro> yes
<Demon012> lol same here
<Demon012> http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/17371/
<Demon012> check that out lol
<Demon012> something my tutor showed me
<Demon012> had me in fits
<jdzitro> lolz
<jdzitro> that's great
<Demon012> yeah I thought so too lol
<Demon012> I would paste it into here for everyone but IRC doesn't like multiline messages
<jdzitro> are you in the Netherlands, Demon?
<Demon012> no im from the UK m8
<jdzitro> i thought so, heh, the link confused me.
<Demon012> ah yes lol
<Demon012> yeah I have been looking for useful things since yesterday morning because I am trying to become more involved with ubuntu
<Demon012> and that was one of the things I found that was useful yesterday
<Demon012> loving this open week so far
<jdzitro> i would love to, for now, just learn all i can and master the OS. come june, i will be attending a technical college and maybe focusing my studies to become a "Linux Specialist"
<Demon012> nice
<Demon012> where you from jdzitro?
<jdzitro> i'm from california, in the states
<Demon012> ahh kk was hoping you would say from the UK as I wouldn't mind going and doing some linux courses myself
<Demon012> they are a little sparse on the ground over here
<Demon012> in my area anyway
<jdzitro> there is little interest for linux in my area but hopefully that will change
<jdzitro> it seems with ubuntu that linux has become more mainstream
<Demon012> yeah ubuntu certainly has worked wonders
<jdzitro> i used to boot knoppix now and then and just play but it was so intimidating. ubuntu is just more friendly.
<Demon012> its strongest point imo and what holds it all together is a mix of the philosophy that it should just work and the package management
<jdzitro> it's not something i can really be scared of
<Demon012> the no ports open philosophy helps a lot too
<jdzitro> yes, i just want the damn thing to work! lol
<Demon012> lol same here m8
<Demon012> yeah for example though something that I was shocked and amazed with the other week with SuSe for example...
<jdzitro> i think the hardest part in a transition from windows is deciding what applications to use
<Demon012> my friend at college installed suse on a machine that was connected to the main network
<Demon012> he installed all the defaults and it all went ok
<Demon012> then suddenly the technician comes in complaining about some weird problems she is having
<jdzitro> everyone is so accustomed to things like windows media player or IE because they are comfortable but those applications are not for everyone and they don't provide a lot of room for customization of services
<Demon012> then after a few minutes we realise that SuSe by default installs a DHCP server and it had taken over the network
<jdzitro> oh wow lol
<Demon012> that really should not be the case rofl
<Demon012> I then told my m8 to go get himself Kubuntu (he loves KDE)
<Demon012> and he has been using it ever since and he loves it lol
<Demon012> also it seems SuSe still suffers from dependency hell
<Demon012> (where you cannot meet all the dependencies for something on the computer)
<jdzitro> i think for linux to really take off, people need to be able to use it without the worries that they are going to break something
<Demon012> yes definitely
<Demon012> so while it should just work it should be self contained at the same time so it doesn't hijack a network
<jdzitro> more people need to just burn a copy of something and start clicking around. that's the best way to learn it, i think.
<jdzitro> yes lol that's bad times.
<Demon012> yeah that's what I have been doing with linux for about 5 years now
<jdzitro> thats exactly how i learned windows
<Demon012> first tried a very very old version of redhat
<jdzitro> i am just starting over
<Demon012> didn't get on with that very well
<Demon012> then I tried suse
<Demon012> that worked for me at the time but was slow
<Demon012> then tried fedora
<jdzitro> i had a red hat distro too and didn't like it. it was for a intro to linux class and it just didn't feel right.
<Demon012> liked that ran that for a while
<Demon012> then I found out about ubuntu breezy
<Demon012> that was what I settled on
<Demon012> but it wasn't able to totally replace windows for me
<Demon012> so I have dual booted ever since
<Demon012> and ubuntu is slowly taking over
<jdzitro> i was forced to lol but i have no regrets
<jdzitro> the thing works and that puts a smile on my face
<Demon012> once cedega is able to play EVE-Online really reallly well (as well as windows frame rate wise) I will dump windows asap lol
<jdzitro> i still need to tweak wine and steam so that counter-strike will play more normally
<jdzitro> i was playing tonight and had so many problems i couldnt explain
<jdzitro> we will get there soon, though
<Demon012> that's is one of the main problems linux has (lack of comercial games)
* Demon012 wishes he could go rip direct X 10 outta vista and shove it in ubuntu
<jdzitro> YES!!!
<jdzitro> it would be "xdirectx10" haha
<Demon012> well actually I don't know if I like direct x 10 (have you heard they have stopped you using native OpenGL?)
<jdzitro> yes i did
<Demon012> also removed direct sound
<jdzitro> orly??
<Demon012> yep
<jdzitro> and are using what now?
<Demon012> hold on got mind block lol
<Demon012> its the one they used in ut2004
<jdzitro> ummm
<Demon012> think it begins with an A (and no not alsa lol)
<jdzitro> reltek?
<jdzitro> oh
<Demon012> no silly me its OpenAL
<jdzitro> lol
<Demon012> there we go knew google would help me again
<Demon012> bloody mind blocks
<Demon012> I was kinda right it had an A in it =)
<Demon012> just thought it was the first letter lol
* jdzitro gives kudos
<Demon012> heh
<jdzitro> well, i should get to bed. it's almost 3 in the morning here. just passed bedtime lol
<Demon012> yeah also try not to get tempted to install vista on your computer its nothing but hassle
<Demon012> lol kk m8 sleep well
<Demon012> was thinking that earlier
<jdzitro> oh i was using RC2 for a while then formatted it for ubuntu
<Demon012> yeah I tried that too
<jdzitro> thanks a lot for all your help
<Demon012> took me ages to get it installed (it doesn't like xp's partitions???)
<Demon012> np m8 nice talking to you
<Demon012> added you to my buddy list
<Demon012> will talk to you again soon
<jdzitro> ya ill do the same
<jdzitro> gnite
<Demon012> nn m8
<johnt> What is happening here??
<PriceChild> johnt, nothing yet until 15:00
<PriceChild> utc
<johnt> Is utc gmt?? London england
<PriceChild> No
<PriceChild> @now utc
<ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: April 24 2007, 10:11:18 - Next meeting: Technical Board in 9 hours 48 minutes
<PriceChild> @now london
<ubotu> Current time in Europe/London: April 24 2007, 11:11:21 - Next meeting: Technical Board in 9 hours 48 minutes
<PriceChild> London is now on BST
<harrisony> PriceChild: it is? wow
<harrisony> !board
<PriceChild> We have to be difficult you see... it wouldn't be the same :)
<ubotu> Sorry, I don't know anything about board - try searching on http://bots.ubuntulinux.nl/factoids.cgi
<johnt> Grr thet changed it since I left in 1966
<johnt> they
<johnt> <price child> So we sit in a classroom and listen Right???
<PriceChild> johnt, sort of. There is also #ubuntu-classroom-chat where you can ask questions.
<PriceChild> Depending on the session leader's style, this room may be "moderated" so that no-one but the leader can speak and the best questions just get pasted over
<johnt> <Price Child > Do you need to be a uber geek???
<PriceChild> lol no :)
<PriceChild> This week is all about getting involved, you don't have to know anything to be able to come here and learn a bit :)
<johnt> Ok I might come along and have a look it I can idle
<johnt> spelling I meant if
<johnt> One last dumb question  If there is no class for nine hours why are there 150 people here?
<Demon012> johnt: the lessons are great I attended them all yesterday (I especially found the Bazaar revision control system on useful)
<Demon012> johnt: we are patient =)
<johnt> <Demon012> Cool I will get up early in the morning and have a look I think it will be around  8.00am where I am
<Demon012> cool
<PriceChild> johnt, Its not in 9 hours... they're in 4 1/2
<johnt> Better go I have class in the morning :-))
<Demon012> don't worry if you miss one though there will be chatlogs (I know it isn't the same but you still get to read the answers to others questions)
<Demon012> ok gn johnt
* ajmitch will miss the motu session, what a shame
<PriceChild> ajmitch, you really wanted to get involved there as well... (
<PriceChild> :(
<ajmitch> yeah
<johnt> <Price Child> Gaa that is  3.00 am
<ajmitch> quite right
* tonytiger wonders if popey has turned poopey yet.
<popey> :)
<popey> I have been popey the poopy for some time now
<popey> http://irpg.blitzed.eu.org/players.php <- see
<PriceChild> Hey there popey
<popey> hullo!
<PriceChild> All ready and eager to start? :)
* ajmitch is eager & waiting
<popey> erk
<popey> shall we just clear the channel and I will babble to myself for a bit ;)
<jono> heh
<ajmitch> hey jono
<jono> hey :)
<popey> i am going to make a point of winking at jono at LRL07 just to show that ;) is an appropriate emoticon
<popey> no, you have not pulled
<jono> popey: heh, the big misunderstand is that I hate ;) - I just hate overuse :P
<popey> ahhh
<jono> right lunch for the bacon
<popey> the misunderstanding is more fun though
<jono> later skater
* ajmitch is so sad that he missed jono's big moment here yesterday
<jono> popey: thats the premise of the open source community ;)
<popey> \o/ factual innacuracies
<Elwell> OT (but semi related) - Is there a way to split the screen in irssi so I can have say 70% top screen with classroom in, and bottom 30% with classroom-chat?
<popey> yes
<popey> i have my irssi split
<popey> I don't have two channels in the windows, I have the main window and then 8 lines at the top which show my hilight words
<popey> i have set <QUESTION> to be a hilight word so I will see them pop up hopefully
<popey> Elwell: http://www.irssi.org/documentation/startup has some stuff - search for split
<Elwell> yeah - I saw the highlight words trick described somewhere. (and promptly failed to bookmark)
<jrib> Elwell: f0rked website iirc
* tonytiger urghs @ "hilight"
<salty-horse> when's the next session?
<PriceChild> salty-horse, 15:00 utc
<PriceChild> it is now:
<PriceChild> @now
<ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: April 24 2007, 12:04:50 - Next meeting: Technical Board in 7 hours 55 minutes
<PriceChild> So 3 huors :)
<salty-horse> the technical board isn't listed here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
<robertj> doesn't TB usually meet in #ubuntu-meeting?
<harrisony> robertj: ye
<PriceChild> salty-horse, the technical board isn't part of the ubuntu open week
<PriceChild> salty-horse, that's a regular meeting that normaly happens
<harrisony> what does the technical board talk about
<salty-horse> technicalities
<PriceChild> harrisony, they look after the development of ubuntu. all the important stuff, i'm not sure how else to explain :)
<harrisony> ahh i see
<harrisony> @now
<ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: April 24 2007, 12:18:54 - Next meeting: Technical Board in 7 hours 41 minutes
<harrisony> hmm
<harrisony> i might be able to make it
<habeeb> 7 hours? o_o
<habeeb> aww.. the technical board (what a retard)...
<habeeb> and what's the "command" for the normal classroom schedule?
<tonytiger> There isn't one, I don't think.
<habeeb> :(
<tonytiger> It was discussed yesterday and the best anyone could come up with was the link in /topic
<habeeb> i see
<tonytiger> I could be wrong though :)
<habeeb> but why? I mean you could rewrite ubotu's code to countdown from 15, instead?
<habeeb> Just for these days, I mean..
<habeeb> *15 is the hour when the classroom starts (or whenever it is ).
<PriceChild> It was suggested to get ubotu to change the topic etc. but I don't think seve.as has the time at such last minute to hack ubotu for work which will only be good for 6 days.
<habeeb> i see
<habeeb> ubotu is "closed"-source? :P
<PriceChild> habeeb, no
<PriceChild> habeeb, if you want to do the coding and give it to sev.eas then go for it :)
<PriceChild> http://bots.ubuntulinux.nl/code/
* popey thinks he has finished his notes
<tonytiger> popey: g'luck
<popey> ta
<habeeb> by the way, shouldn't there be a notice or something in the ubuntuforums about this channel? I mean, near the label saying that Feisty is out...
<habeeb> I wouldn't know about this if there wasn't a thread in digg.com about it.
* popey pokes PriceChild 
<PriceChild> Hey popey
<popey> look up :)
<popey> you're a forum dude
<popey> are there openweek threads?
<PriceChild> Hey, habeeb there is a sticky in the cafe and also a post int he announcements forum
<habeeb> True. Didn't see the announcements one. as far as the cafe is concerned, tho, not many people look there.
<alterlaszlo> approx two hours to go...
<harrisony> till
<harrisony> Oh yueah
* pochu waves!
* PriceChild waves back at pochu 
* adamant1988 waves at PriceChild
* PriceChild sticks his tongue out at adamant1988 
* KalleDK_Lap graps PriceChilds tongue
* adamant1988 rips off the tongue in question
<PriceChild> how rude
<adamant1988> PriceChild: Don't tell me about rude.
<adamant1988> Rude is quoting American Office for 3 hours
* KalleDK_Lap feels suddenly hunger
<jrib> american office?
<PriceChild> adamant1988, hehe i'm watching it atm
<adamant1988> PriceChild: Addictions are bad for you
<jrib> ok he's here, stop talking about him guys
<jrib> hi mc44
<jjesse> what class do we have right now?
* mc44 pities jrib 
<PriceChild> jjesse, screencasting in 40 minutes
<jjesse> oh cool
* mc44 screencasts popey
* popey uploads it to youtube
<popey> fame at last!
<popey> amusing picture of the day:- http://www.mileserve.com/pictures/Screenshot.png my mates desktop after upgrading to feisty
<popey> He said "I was trying to change the language"
<popey> I asked "what to?"
<popey> he said "square square square square"
<popey> he is beyond help
<PriceChild> hehe
<mc44> popey: ah, I see he selected rectangle rectangle rectangle by mistake
<popey> fool!
<jrib> I like how it says "userfriendly" in the corner
<habeeb> The first msn contact's pic..
<habeeb> is that you, popey ?
<popey> of course ;)
<popey> (no, it isnt)
<cellojoe> where's userfriendly?
<KalleDK_Lap> down to the right
<habeeb> on the wallpaper
<mc44> popey: so thats why you were so popular on youtube
<cellojoe> oh *that* wallpaper....(cellojoe doesn't have jrib's wallpaper)
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o LjL]  by ChanServ
<popey> yes, i look like a blue disembodied head and shoulders with a yellow piece of paper in front
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-classroom:LjL] : The topic for #ubuntu-classroom is: Ubuntu Open Week || SCHEDULE: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek || RULES: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules Please respect them || LOGS: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs || Ask questions and chat in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, "QUESTION: <insert question here>" || NEXT SESSION: Joining the Ubuntu community, by Jono Bacon (15:00 UTC)
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o LjL]  by LjL
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o LjL]  by ChanServ
<popey> er
<habeeb> oh shi-
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-classroom:LjL] : The topic for #ubuntu-classroom is: Ubuntu Open Week || SCHEDULE: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek || RULES: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules Please respect them || LOGS: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs || Ask questions and chat in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, "QUESTION: <insert question here>" || NEXT SESSION: Screencasting Team, by Alan Pope (15:00 UTC)
<popey> ta
<popey> :)
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o LjL]  by LjL
<cellojoe> i thought it was screen yeaaah
<PriceChild> LjL, aww steal my thunder :)
<LjL> swapped days :P
<habeeb> what's the -o function?
<popey> lollypop mode
<PriceChild> lol
* mc44 licks LjL 
<popey> -* is sparkler mode
<PriceChild> <8 is icecream mode?
<cellojoe> habeeb: -o is the 'ftl' function
<jrib> popey: you have a gift
<PriceChild> <O that's single scoop
<cellojoe> habeeb: +o is the root function
<LjL> PriceChild: your thunder...? we've been topicing sessions last open week, too :P
<cellojoe> <O0 double scoop?
<PriceChild> LjL, :P
<jrib> cellojoe: with a single sprinkle?
<popey> <O  flake!
<popey> ish
<mc44> :D
<davmor2> <O0- double scoop with a flake
<nakinub> ciao a tutti/e -----------------> ubuntu.noblogs.org
<PriceChild> and sprinkle davmor2
<cellojoe> <O0` single sprinkle
<davmor2> <O0:- pricechild there's your sprinkles
<PriceChild> wooo
<habeeb> You know what is missing from this channel?
<habeeb> No Listening spam!
<popey> Ponies
<popey> oh
<habeeb> *now
<mc44> @pony popey
<popey> Bio break!
<davmor2> Giraffes
<cellojoe> so if we're not supposed to talk during the session, why not just +m the channel?
<nakinub> ciao a tutti/e -----------------> ubuntu.noblogs.org
<bordy> cellojoe they did yesterday for jono
<cellojoe> ah
<bordy> yeah. lots of gratuitous babble
<mc44> well actually they did yesterday for all sessions
<PriceChild> cellojoe, we won't +m unless the speaker requests it... we just never took it off yesterday as the speakers liked it.
<popey> smart move
<bordy> orly? I was only able to hit the first session
<cellojoe> oh, mk
<popey> PriceChild: I hereby request mutiny
<mc44> whereas popey can take the heckling, right? be a man :)
<davmor2> if you really want to lock it down +ms
<PriceChild> popey, in what fashion?
<popey> like a jaunty sailor
<popey> with his hat on at a funny angle
<PriceChild> could you repeat the request in a pirate accent to confirm.
<popey> Yarrr!
<habeeb> No well, since we have ubuntu-classroom-chat there is no point for this channel to not be +m
<popey> PriceChild: +m when we start would be appreciated
<PriceChild> popey, Will do :)
<popey> ta
<mc44> popey: wimp
<PriceChild> haha
<PriceChild> mc44, he's not a real hardcore speaker is he :P
<PriceChild> mc44, you'll just have to heckle twice as hard in -chat
<popey> the problem is the logs will be impossilbe to read
<habeeb> Hey! I'm supposed to be studying >:
<popey> </excuse>
<PriceChild> popey, yeah. btw I'm impressed with whoever sorted the logs from yesterday... /me looks
<alterlaszlo> what's '+m'
<alterlaszlo> ??
<PriceChild> ausimage :)
<habeeb> alterlaszlo: if +m is enabled only the operators can speak
<PriceChild> alterlaszlo, means only certain people get to speak. Questions may be asked in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<chell> hey guys
<alterlaszlo> how do i activate +m?
<habeeb> y halo thar
<habeeb> alterlaszlo: you don't. Operators do.
<alterlaszlo> thx
<habeeb> alterlaszlo: operators are people with "@" before their names.
<PriceChild> brb 2 mins
<maxi_> what session will start at what time, I dont know the calculation with UTC...
<maxi_> ???
<PriceChild> maxi_, popey will begin with screencasts in 15 mintues
<habeeb> maxi_: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
<maxi_> thx, I knew the timetable, now I can calculate for my local tim...
<maxi_> e
<PriceChild> @now
<ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: April 24 2007, 14:46:27 - Next meeting: Technical Board in 5 hours 13 minutes
<popey> right, i think i am ready http://gallery.popey.com/gallery/screenshots/Screenshot_006
<cellojoe> are we done with the <0 icecream?
<habeeb> Aw man... I won't be here for Shuttleworth's show..
<ypsila> moin
<cellojoe> my screen session froze :(
<habeeb> cellojoe: no, the discussion is still in progress.
<ypsila> moin \sh
<someothernick> lol
<PriceChild> popey, dual screen - no fair :)
<popey> more space for ponies
<PriceChild> hehe
<PriceChild> @pony popey
<habeeb> I'm on popey's screen! Hey mom!
<mc44> popey: you need to edit that pony with the ubuntu logo in pink :)
<cellojoe> aw, i'm not.
<cellojoe> silly screen :(
<cellojoe> but irssi ftw
<habeeb> Heh... lugradio channel :P
<habeeb> Also "Screen popey, do you use it?"
<popey> just a touch
<habeeb> Two terminals open for two irssi is anti-trendy.
<popey> the one at the top is temporary
<\sh> moins ypsila
<popey> so i can keep an eye on the noise in -chat
<cellojoe> screen -x?
<habeeb> popey: no excuses.
<popey> indeed
<popey> I am lame
<cellojoe> screencasts are like videos of a desktop, right?
<popey> indeed they are
<cellojoe> just makin sure
* popey gets more coffee
<cellojoe> i shoulda /ignore joins parts awhile ago :(
<elkbuntu> no time for drinkin coffee popey .. you gotta type!
<popey> copy/paste FTW!
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o popey]  by ChanServ
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o PriceChild]  by ChanServ
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+m]  by PriceChild
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o PriceChild]  by ChanServ
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o LjL]  by ChanServ
<LjL> The topic for #ubuntu-classroom is: Ubuntu Open Week || SCHEDULE: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek || RULES: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules Please respect them || LOGS: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs || Ask questions and chat in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, "QUESTION: <insert question here>" || NEXT SESSION: Screencasting Team, by Alan Pope (starting shortly)
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o LjL]  by LjL
<popey> *tap* *tap*
<popey> is this thing on?
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o LjL]  by ChanServ
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o PriceChild]  by ChanServ
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-classroom:LjL] : The topic for #ubuntu-classroom is: Ubuntu Open Week || SCHEDULE: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek || RULES: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules Please respect them || LOGS: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs || Ask questions and chat in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, "QUESTION: <insert question here>" || CURRENT SESSION: Screencasting Team, by Alan Pope
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o LjL]  by LjL
<PriceChild> For those just joining, please join #ubuntu-classroom-chat to ask all your questions!
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o PriceChild]  by ChanServ
<popey> Ok, here's the plan for the next hour-ish
<popey> * Introduction
<popey> * Brief history of screencasting
<popey> * Brief history of the screencasting team
<popey> * Useful Links
<popey> * How do we make screencasts?
<popey> * How do other people make screencasts?
<popey> * How/why do we convert videos to other formats (or "There are formats *other* than OGG!?")
<popey> * How do we make them available?
<popey> * What can people do with them?
<popey> * What we should be doing
<popey> * What we need / how you can help
<popey> * What else can we do / any questions?
<popey> * Introduction
<popey> Hi, my name is Alan Pope, you may remember me from such IRC channels as #ubuntu-uk, #launchpad and the hilarious #lugradio. I'm an Ubuntu user just like you. I don't work for Canonical, I'm not a system admin, or a developer in fact I can't really code at all. Oh and I have no artistic skills whatsoever.
<popey>  It's not looking good is it!?
<popey> I do however have some experience of IT Training so making screencasts makes sense to me as a way of contributing to the community because it's something I can actually do!
<popey> * Brief history of screencasting
<popey> "A screencast is a digital recording of computer screen output, also known as a video screen capture, often containing audio narration." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Screencasting - read the first paragraph of that, I'll be testing you later :)
<popey> Some people learn better by being shown how to do stuff rather than by reading detailed How-Tos or man pages. Whilst this is an alien concept to many geeks who memorise URLs of How-Tos and commit entire man pages to memory, your average Joe Ubuntu User needs pretty pictures and videos.
<popey> So for this reason I created a few screencasts.
<popey> * Brief history of the screencasting team
<popey> About 7 years ago I was working for a company doing IT training on evil software. We had an idea over coffee one day to make some videos that people could watch online. At the time Viewlet Builder (proprietary app) was available and seemed to do the job of recording screen activity quite well.
<popey> I registered quickones.org to host them, because we thought they would be quick videos, 5 minutes about how to perform a particular task on a computer. Unfortunately the project never really got anywhere so the domain got used for something else.
<popey> Cut forward to 2005 when I started looking at screencasting tools on Linux. I tried some of the desktop recording tools, and some video editing software to see if I could make screencasts that would render well over the web or downloaded and played locally. Some of the tools are pretty good, I filed a few bugs, requested some features and contacted the authors of some of the applications.
<popey> I settled on a suite of tools (more of that in a moment) which I use to do my screencasts. It was (and still is) important to me
<popey> to make screencasts using completely free tools.
<popey> i.e. not use windows applications such as camtasia to make the screencasts - but thats a personaly thing :)
<popey>  After making some test videos and sending them to my local LUG mailing list for evaluation I started making lists of screencasts that people might want to watch. I tried to figure out what people would want to see, common questions people ask and funky new things new users might not know about.
<popey> A few people tested the videos and gave me some feedback about the format, style and content of the screencasts. Towards the end of 2006 I made a bunch of "feature length" screencasts. They are each about 5-10 minutes long and cover some basic concepts such as installation of Ubuntu and customising the desktop.
<popey> Matthew East contacted me and offered some help and hosting on the documentation team server - which we are now using. We setup the screencast team on launchpad and more recently had a meeting on irc to discuss the direction and technical issues surrounding screencasting.
<popey> It was decided that we should target the current release (Feisty) for new screencasts. We also decided to drop the default resolution from 1024x768 to 800x600 because some popular machines couldn't play them due to driver bugs, and the video files were very large with little added value at the higher resolution.
<popey> Ok, thats the history lesson over
<popey> * How do we make screencasts?
<popey> The tool set _I_ use is QEMU+KQEMU(or KVM) (virtual machine), xvidcap (screen recording), avidemux (audio recording), ffmpeg and avidemux (format conversion). In slightly over one sentence:-
<popey> "I install Ubuntu in a QEMU vm which runs in an 800x600 window on my desktop (we used to use 1024x768 but this casued problems). I run xvidcap on my desktop and set it to record the QEMU window only. I do my demo in Ubuntu under QEMU and when finished I stop xvidcap. I watch the video back, recording the audio track in audacity as I go. I merge the audio and video in avidemux and upload to the web"
<popey> (If there are any questions about any of the above tools, please ask)
<popey> It sounds a lot easier than it actually is.
<popey> and in a way, it sounds a lot harder than it actually is :)
<popey> I will take some questions at the end of this section in a moment
<popey> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScreencastTeam/RecordingScreencasts for considerably more detail.
<popey> Some people have reported that this process is convoluted (recording audio separately from video), doesn't perform well (some people get low frame rates out of xvidcap), and cumbersome (running a virtual machine rather than recording the local machine direct). These are of course all valid concerns :)
<popey> On the wiki we outlined the reasons for doing it this way. Of course other people can create screencasts in any way they want, this is just the way that works for us. So long as people can create high quality screencasts in a format that we can use, we really don't care how they are made.
<popey> If anyone has a better (more streamlined, faster, easier) way to create screencasts _on_ _Linux_ (i.e. not using a Windows/Mac screencasting app) which results in high quality video in formats we can use, we want to hear it.
<popey> If you have any questions about the way we make screencasts, please do ask and I'll try to answer them as best I can.
<popey> Ok, I will break for questions now.
<popey> < chell> QUESTION: Why don't you record the audio at the same time as the video?
<popey> Because pretty much every screencast I have watched where this is done consists of the speaker going " uhmmm.. errr..." as they concentrate on what they are doing
<popey> it doesnt sound nice to the listener
<popey> chell: does that answer your question?
<popey> in addition, if you record audio and video together and mess up the audio due to someone walking in the room for example, you have to re-record the whole thing
<popey> if you record the audio separately if you mess it up, you only need to re-record the audio
<popey> < chell> you still get uhms and errs if you do the narration afterwards (or do you have a script)?
<popey> i record the video, then watch it practicing what I am going to say, then watch it again and record the audio as I watch
<popey> I dont think I uhm much
<popey> watch them and feel free to tell me I do though :)
<popey>  < cellojoe> QUESTION: are all the tools available in the officials repos?
<popey> All except xvidcap, which is packaged as a .deb on the xvidcap site
<popey> it works on dapper, edgy and feisty
<popey> qemu, avidemux and others are packaged
<popey> except the kqemu accelerator for qemu which needs compiling from source - its documented on the wiki
<popey> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/KQemu iirc
<popey>  < LjL> QUESTIONS: Why do you use virtual machines? Just because of the resolution difference?
<popey> because I want to show people what a real amchine looks like, not my heavily modified desktop
<popey> if someone watches a screencast that isn't exactly what they see on their desktop it can put them off
<popey> they might be less inclined to "trust" it
<popey> i can also rollback what I do with qemu :)
<popey> so if I mess it up I can "reset" and do it again very easily
<popey> < PriceChild> QUESTION: You compiled xvidcap yourself then I guess? Do you still use it and if so could you package it as it is evil and I've given up :P
<popey> no, I use the deb from http://xvidcap.sf.net/
<popey> I would gladly package it, but i refer you to my skillset that I pasted at the beginning :)
<popey>  < maxi_> How is quemo working, is it difficult to get startet with it?
<popey> qemu works for me very well out of the box
<popey> especially if you use either kqemu of kvm - kvm only works on CPUs that have the VT virtualisation instructions, kqemu works on any cpu AIUI
<popey> < samgee> QUESTION: Isn't 800x600 too small for Ubuntu? I know from experience that it's not enough for the installer.
<popey> all the screencasts I have made so far are at 1024x768, it's possible that we may find some things that dont fit in 800x600
<popey> and we may make a special case for those
<popey> but we should try to stick to 800x600 as much as possible IMO
<popey>  < robotangel> QUESTION: Why use xvidcap when there's istanbul (and that's even in the repos - btw why isn't xvidcap)?
<popey> istanbul records to ogg, xvidcap is very flexible in the formats that it can encode to, xvidcap also has some nice other features - some of which I have asked the author of istanbul to implement
<popey> I am not against istanbul at all, it's just that xvidcap is considerably more feature rich
<popey> and that goes for pretty much any screencasting app you care to mention
<popey> ok
<popey> back to the content, I will return to questions later
<popey> * How do other people make screencasts?
<popey> There are a load of screencasting apps on Linux.
<popey> Istanbul, RecordMyDesktop, screenkast, DemoRecorder (proprietary), and of course xvidcap we would recommend.
<popey> vnc2swf, vncrec and wink we would generally not recommend for our screencasts (they record to formats that are difficult to manipulate).
<popey> There are good reasons I don't recommend some apps, and that's all detailed on the wiki, but by all means ask any questions and make any comments about these judgements :)
<popey> Examples of some quality screencasts that you might want to look at include those at http://ubuntuclips.org/, http://screencastsonline.com (Mac OSX videos) and http://showmedo.com/ .
<popey> I am not going to give you examples of bad screencasts - you can find them on youtube and google video yourselves, and when I say "bad" that is entirely my personal opinion, feel free to argue that one with me some time :)
<popey> * How/why do we convert videos to other formats?
<popey> It's a bit beyond this session to go into the intricate details of the different formats for the screencasts. Suffice to say that in general there are at least 4 formats we support.
<popey> Put simply, OGG for the Good, MOV for the Bad, and AVI for the Ugly. FLV is the 4th, (evil) flash based streaming which is done because of the popularity of the flash video format.
<popey> Whatever you think of flash, it has a massive install base, and that's a lot of potential eyeballs for our screencasts. It might also make sense to make screencasts which can playback on small format devices such as iPod Video and mobile phones.
<popey> Whatever happens, we _always_ make our videos available in OGG/Theora/Vorbis format as a primary objective.
<popey> That is unlikely to change.
<popey> Avidemux is a great GUI application for converting videos. You can load a video made in another application and save it out in some other format using a different codec and can also do neat things like resize as the file is converted.
<popey> Perhaps we need an avidemux screencast? :)
<popey> In addition ffmpeg can be used on the command line to convert between formats. We also use ffmpeg2theora to convert MPEG/AVI files to OGG/Theoa format. Other tools have been tried, and suggestions are welcome for other robust, easy to use, flexible tools.
<popey> * How do we make them available?
<popey> http://doc.ubuntu.com/screencasts/ is the central repository for all the screencasts that have been made under the Screencast Team banner. These are videos actually made by the team specifically _for_ the team (and anyone else) to redistribute.
<popey> We don't take other peoples ready-made videos off YouTube for example, I know http://ubuntuvideo.com do a good job of collating video content - including screencasts - in that way.
<popey> In the past we uploaded the videos to http://archive.org/ however whilst free it's a little painful and the performance is somewhat slow. So now we host on the docteams server - big thanks to Matthew East (mdke) for helping us out there. Some of these videos are large and as such chew bandwidth when linked to.
<popey> * What can people do with them?
<popey> Pretty much whatever you like. I rather stupidly created the videos initially under a restrictive license. This was pointed out and now the videos are available under CC BY-SA 2.5 (http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.5/). Just to be clear:-
<popey> You can redistribute the videos in any format and media you like. You do _not_ need to ask our permission to redistribute them. You can translate them to other languages - perhaps by overdubbing the audio track, create mashups, edit them, whatever. We really don't mind.
<popey> Of course we also want people to make their own and contribute back! :)
<popey> * What we need / how you can help
<popey> (the important bit)
<popey> Rationalisation of the screencasting pages on the wiki. Many of the screencasting pages (http://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScreenCasts and its children) are brain dumps of what we were doing to make screencasts at the time. These pages need some love. They need simplifying. Help!
<popey> Also the pages under https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScreencastTeam also need some love
<popey> We need a very very very simple guide to making screencasts. The problem is it's not that easy to make good quality screencasts. People have suggested a "screencast on how to make screencasts" which we have considered but it's also not exactly easy to make (technically)
<popey> We have a list of screencasts we would like to see made:- https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScreencastTeam/Requests
<popey> Please add to this list, or adopt a screencast and make it yourself.
<popey> If we can streamline the process I think we can get more people to make them. We would love to hear input on how we can make things easier.
<popey> Voice overs/dubbing. I understand from speaking to some people that they don't like the idea of their own voice on a screencast. If that's the case, and you have a video you would like to make, then _please_ let me know. We need the videos made, we can record the audio track if that would help.
<popey> * What else can we do / any questions?
<popey> Q&A Time.
<popey> Also - before a question - a link-fest :)
<popey> * Useful links
<popey> ** Our pages
<popey> http://doc.ubuntu.com/screencasts/ - Home of the screencasts made by the screencast team.
<popey> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScreenCasts - Base of the screencast team wiki pages.
<popey> http://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-screencasts - Launchpad team page.
<popey> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScreencastTeam - Team pages on the wiki
<popey> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScreencastTeam/RecordingScreencasts - The method I use to make screencasts.
<popey> ** Other people doing good work
<popey> http://ubuntuclips.org/ - Have generated a large number of screencasts.
<popey> http://ubuntuvideo.com/ - Aggregate video content (not just screencasts) from YouTube/Google (so all flash based).
<popey> http://showmedo.com/ - Free and pay-for screencasts on various topics
<popey> Ok, that's everything - question time!
<popey> 16:21 < Belutz> QUESTIONS: can you provide video only without sound? so the loco team can just record the audio in local language
<popey> yes, although if you download the video, avidemux can replace the audio very easily
<popey> if you contact me I can provide versions with no audio though
<popey> I have those archived
<popey> < LjL> popey: you answered. but just a thought (if you find it relevant), what about employing a separate user (with default settings) instead?
<popey> we did consider this, but the menu will still look different, universe apps may have been installed, java, flash etc may already be there
<popey> so when we show installing software for example the dependencies would not be the same
<popey> although I can see that if all you are screencasting is "how to write an openoffice document" that really wont matter
<popey> < chell> QUESTION: What are the specs of the machine you use for recording - how well does it work with QEMU (any slowdowns etc)?
<popey> I mostly use my desktop PC which is quite poweful - a Core2Duo with 2GB RAM. but the CPU isnt often thrashed
<popey> its important the virtual machine has plenty of RAM though
<popey> I boot my QEMUs with 512MB of ram, so the host needs a bout a 1GB to run efficiently I'd say
<popey> < Demon012[GoneToC> QUESTION: Which format is the preferred format to release the screen casts in?
<popey> I kinda think I answered that, i can probably deal with any original format _except_ flash flv
<popey> its just too painful (and did I mention evil)
<popey>  < Demon012> QUESTION: Is there a screen cast or a series of how to's on setting up these screen casting apps to start screencasting?
<popey> not quite, there is a how-to
<popey> i would like to make a "how to screencast" screencast, but it is difficult to do
<popey>  < zorglu_> QUESTION: under which license are the screencast distributed?
<popey> creative commons BY-SA 2.5
<popey>  < jrib> QUESTION: why not link the screencasts in the relevant wiki pages?  At the moment, is the only way people find out about a screencast by going to the screencasts page directly?
<popey> It *is* a wiki. Feel free to spam the wiki with links to our screencasts wherever appropriate :)
<popey>  < zorglu_> QUESTION: is there some 'permalink' to the screencast ? (it would help to include them in external documentations)
<popey> the links to the videos you see on http://doc.ubuntu.com/screencasts *should* be okay, if we ever move server I will setup redirection if that is possible (i did this for quickones - if you visit quickones.org you magically turn up at doc.ubuntu.com/screencasts)
<popey>  < JLP> popey: QUESTION: What about adding text captions to recordings? For example for adding subtitles in defferent languages. Is it hard to do?
<popey> Yes, it's hard.
<popey> :)
<popey> I would suggest that if someone wants to transcribe the audio, they can do so and we can put that on the screencast site as a .txt file people can grab
<popey> unless someone knows some magic - its going to be painful getting the timing right
<popey> < deniz_ogut> popey QUESTION: How much RAM do we need to do this job?
<popey> lots
<popey> As much as you can. of course if you are recording your own desktop and not using QEMU (VM) approach then its less of an issue
<popey> an alternative is to vnc to a remote machine and record the vnc session using xvidcap (not vncrec or vnc2swf for reasons already stated)
<popey> that way you spread the load, one machine recording, one doing the demo
<popey>  < maxi_> QUESTION: How can I find out if there's any loco team close here I coul'd join? I mean I speak German and spanish almost perfect, and english so so, so maybe there's some translation possilbility?
<popey> speak to jono :)
<popey> < deniz_ogut> popey QUESTION: What tools do we need for just dubbing (translations, lets say) and what kind of a CPU and RAM?
<popey> audacity and something to allow you to watch the video as you talk - some kind of media player - totem / mplayer / vlc
<popey> the audio recording doesnt chew up memory, the qemu session does
<popey> you can then use avidemux to replace the audio track with your own one
<popey> or send me the audio track and I will do it :)
<popey>  < Demon012> QUESTION: How do you do things in screencasts while allowing yourself enough time to talk about it after you add audio?
<popey> I talk to myself whilst I am doing it :)
<popey> i imagine what I am going to say at various points whilst I do the demo
<popey> I pause a bit
<popey> maybe wave the mouse over an important area
<popey>  < jayteeuk> popey QUESTION: Do you script the screencasts themselves, what actions you're going to take, rough talk-over, storyboards, etc, before you get started?
<popey> I dont specifically script them.. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScreencastTeam/Requests/InstallingJava
<popey> we make notes though ^^for example
<popey> that's all the questions I think ?
<popey> unless anyone wants me to expand on any?
<popey> < Gabz> popey QUESTION: what happens when a screencast becomes out of date eg feisty is released ?
<popey> yeah, that's a problem we have to live with
<popey> either we re-record it or we let it die
<popey> depends how "important" it is I guess
<popey> the problem is you cant easily edit them
<popey> < mc44> question: are there any areas you think we need more screencasts in?
<popey> everywhere
<popey> seriously
<popey> *except* 3d desktop effects
<popey> there are like a million of those on youtube
<popey> but none from us :(
<popey> so yeah, maybe one or two compiz/beryl ones
<popey> ask yourself what people ask you about
<popey> look through irc channels, mailing lists, support tickets
<popey> what questions do people ask
<popey>  < jayteeuk> QUESTION: Are there any metrics for determining the popularity of a specific screencast?
<popey> ratings on google?
<popey> I have stats for popularity of pages on our site
<popey> and i get email about them
<popey> i need to speak to mdke to get "proper" site stats so we really can see which are the most popular
<popey> we were on the front page of groklaw last week :)
<popey> which was nice
<popey> < zorglu_> QUESTION: have you experimented doing screencast 'automatically' ? i know some people do screenshoot automatically to avoid the burden of redoing at every release.
<popey> i have not, if you find a way, i would love to hear it!
<popey> 6 < davmor2> popey: can't do that in qemu though can you
<popey> sadly not, no
<popey> but could install a clean install of ubuntu and just install the screencasting app and beryl, then demo?
<popey> < jayteeuk> popey: I was thinking specifically for when determining whether an out-of-date screencast should be killed or re-done for the new release.
<popey> there are people still using dapper, I am sure there are people still using breezy, i guess we need to take a call when we run out of space :)
<popey>  zorglu_> popey_: publishing those popularity results would allow people to know which kind of screencast is the most usefull for the users
<popey> ok, I will gather stats and publish on the site
<popey> however there are only like 7 screencasts on there
<popey> most important thing from my point of view is to make more of them :)
<popey> if I remember rightly the two most popular are the installing dual boot, and burning ISOS
<popey> right, i think we are out of time?
<popey> thanks everyone!
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* ..[topic/#ubuntu-classroom:PriceChild] : The topic for #ubuntu-classroom is: Ubuntu Open Week || SCHEDULE: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek || RULES: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules Please respect them || LOGS: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs || Ask questions and chat in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, "QUESTION: <insert question here>" || CURRENT SESSION: MOTU - Daniel Holbach
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<dholbach> Hello everybody,
<maxi_> So you see, I didn't run away, thx, another interesting hour in my boring live ;)
<cellojoe> yo
<dholbach> I'm Daniel Holbach, work for Canonical and joined the MOTU team around three years ago, when the team had ~5 members. Now we're up to 62 members.
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<dholbach> I work in a couple of different teams: Together with seb128 I work in the Desktop Team (which he'll give a session about on Thu 26th Apr at 20.00). For a couple of other teams I do packaging and try to organise them a bit: the Accessibility team, the Artwork team, the Telepathy team, the Bluetooth team, the Galago team, etc. I also work on bughelper with the BugSquad.
<dholbach> If you have any questions, just ping me in #ubuntu-classroom-chat and I'll answer them as they come up
<dholbach> MOTU stands for 'Masters Of The Universe' which originates from the Universe component, which holds the biggest amount of our packages. 'main' and 'restricted' are supported by Canonical, 'universe' and 'multiverse' by the community. 'main' and 'restricted' hold 5167 packages today and 'universe' plus 'multiverse' 16237. So as the name suggests, the MOTU team takes care of 'universe' (and 'multiverse' also).
<dholbach> <Belutz> dholbach, is MOTU are for developers only?
<dholbach> Belutz: we do packaging and bug fixing - some of these tasks are very easy - we also have MOTUs who like to do organisation and documentation - so there's a lot of tasks for everybody
<dholbach> <erstazi> dholbach: QUESTION: accessibility is an important operating system component, what is Ubuntu's plans for further development?
<dholbach> erstazi: you should talk to heno about that - he's the Accessibility lead and you should join the ubuntu-accessibility-devel@ list
<dholbach> erstazi: this session will be more about MOTU
<dholbach> <Belutz> dholbach, QUESTION: so what can a non-developer do to help the MOTU team and/or become a MOTU team member?
<dholbach> Belutz: we have lots of tasks we work on - I'll lists a couple of them as we move along
<dholbach> <YokoZar> dholbach: QUESTION: Are any MOTUs paid canonical employees working on packages that will eventually be included in main?
<dholbach> YokoZar: ogra and I started in the ranks of MOTUs and became Canonical employees
<dholbach> YokoZar: lots of packages that started in Universe made their way into Main
<dholbach> So what does a MOTU do?
<dholbach> As a MOTU you're maintaining packages. Since we don't follow the concept of applying the rigorous big maintainer lock, it's your choice which package you take care of.
<bogor> WOW, neat way to get a paid job
<dholbach> We have people
<dholbach>  * taking care only of 'their own packages'
<dholbach>  * working together with others on a set of packages in a team
<dholbach>  * fixing lots of different packages
<dholbach> (* working on no packages at all)
<dholbach> If you belong to the last category, this might be your first step in the Ubuntu Development Community. :-)
<dholbach> So how do I become a MOTU?
<dholbach> That's very easy. You basically contribute to the team's efforts, either by packaging a new piece of software or by helping with fixing / updating / merging existing packages.
<dholbach> I personally always found the second way to be much easier and you learn a lot along the way. As a MOTU hopeful you're not allowed yet to upload to the archive yourself, but you can ask other team members to sponsor the upload for you. We have a lightweight process for that in place: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SponsorshipProcess
<dholbach> <zorglu_> QUESTION: why universe/multiverse doesnt contains all the programms with their mp3 component, e.g. to have mp3 support in ffmpeg requires to recompile it from source, could it be possible to have a mp3 enabled version in universe ?
<dholbach> zorglu_: that's a legal question - you best ask our archive admins what is possible and what is not
<dholbach> zorglu_: license problems and patent violations are huge problems we can't just ignore
<dholbach> After a while of contributing, when you've become more comfortable with packaging, the processes and you've worked with a couple of people, you will hear that people are tired of uploading your packages and you should be able to do so yourself. :-)
<zorglu_> dholbach: universe already contains all the mp3 stuff
<zorglu_> lame mp3 encoder is in multiverse as an example. but ok i will ask
<dholbach> zorglu_: I'm not a lawyer, so it's hard for me to judge - every new packages has to go past our archive admins - it's their call
<dholbach> ubuntu-archive is the team in launchpad
<dholbach> and I believe they have a mailing list as well
<dholbach> <YokoZar> dholbach: QUESTION: Hypothetically, the MOTU is already tired of uploading my packages for me.  Then what?
<dholbach> It's easy to see that it's not just a matter of technically abilty, but also a matter of teamwork and trust. Once your mentors and people of the MOTU team are happy with you, they will tell you to apply to become a MOTU yourself. For that you write an application mail to the MOTU Council and if they're happy with you, they'll approve you. Find more info about that over here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Hopeful/Recruitment
<dholbach> <bogor> QUESTION: dholbach: Can you demonstrate the packaging process with an example?
<dholbach> bogor: I'd prefer it the "packaging 101" session did that
<dholbach> this session is more about how MOTU works and what they do, etc
<dholbach> bogor: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Documentation has a few links, especially to the ubuntu packaging guide, which is easy to read and has examples as well
<dholbach> <McKinney> dholbach: Question: what conditions must be complied for a package to get into the repository
<dholbach> McKinney: it has to 1) meet basic packaging standards, 2) build nicely on the architectures it's supposed to, 3) have a nice and clean license, 4) build from source
<dholbach> <Belutz> dholbach, QUESTION, there are a lots of packages in universe/multiverse, how do you manage all of them? how do you assign packages to MOTU members?
<dholbach> Belutz: I don't assign them. We have a couple of teams who work on things they're interested in
<dholbach> Belutz: also we get lots of fixes from the upstream authors and from the debian maintainers
<dholbach> Belutz: and on top of that: the MOTU team has lots of hard working really good people
<dholbach> <t0lst0y> QUESTION: In an average week, what part of the process do you spend most of your time on?
<dholbach> t0lst0y: which process do you mean?
<dholbach> ok, I move on
<dholbach> Things the team does:
<dholbach> We work on Bugs, just to put some numbers into the discussion:
<dholbach>  * 18484 bugs in Universe/Multiverse    (96084 in Ubuntu total)
<dholbach>  * 10380 closed bugs Universe/Multiverse (56612 closed in Ubuntu total)
<dholbach> While the numbers look scary, here's a very good thing about working with the MOTUs: you're not alone. If you try to fix a bug in a package you have:
<dholbach>  1) team members,
<dholbach>  2) the Debian maintainer and
<dholbach>  3) the upstream author
<dholbach> you can ask and work with. Working on bugs is highly rewarding: sometimes it's a one line fix, you find in the upstream CVS already and you make a lot of users happy.
<dholbach> <Demon012> dholbach: QUESTION: What must be done on a softwares source code before it can be packaged with deb helper (How are the MakeFiles etc generated)
<dholbach> Demon012: that's usually something the upstream author does
<dholbach> Demon012: sometimes you have to fix makefiles to make it work nicely for us, but usually you can just use the upstream source
<dholbach> <t0lst0y> QUESTION: In terms of bug fixes versus research versus coding?
<dholbach> t0lst0y: I spend a lot of my time on bug reports, triaging them, talking with the upstream developers about them, etc
<dholbach> t0lst0y: quite a lot of my coding time I spend on the bughelper project (http://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugHelper)
<dholbach> <poningru> QUESTION: now that feisty is released and gutsy toolchain is released can people start adding stuff to revu? or is there a wait periode?
<dholbach> poningru: no wait period at all - just go ahead and ask your mentor or your favourite motu to take a look at it
<dholbach> some additions to that:
<dholbach> Get new packages in!
<dholbach> Ubuntu has become a great place for users. Lots of software is packaged already, but your personal pet project might be missing still. This also is a gratifying task, as you make many users happy by providing high-quality software in the archive.
<dholbach> All NEW packages go through a review process, which currently happens on http://revu.tauware.de - this might change in the near future (http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Processes/REVU). Reviewing is a great way to mentor, but also to learn, which leads us to our next point.
<dholbach> <gpocentek> QUESTION: could you describe what is REVU? :)
<dholbach> gpocentek: :-)
<dholbach> <mc44> QUESTION: is there more we can do to attract more developers to help out with ubuntu/motu?
<dholbach> mc44: good question
<dholbach> mc44: I added two specs for UDS Sevilla about that
<dholbach> one is about getting better documentation
<dholbach> the other about improving our mentoring
<dholbach> once we're better at that this will have the right multiplication effect :-)
<dholbach> <zorglu_> QUESTION: as a rules of thumbs, how long packages wait in the revu queue before being accepted ?
<dholbach> zorglu_: that depends
<zorglu_> an approximation ?
<dholbach> zorglu_: as a package maintainer you need to be responsive on requests and ask people actively for reviews
<dholbach> we have VERY old packages in REVU - that's because people didn't follow up on them
<dholbach> REVU is somewhat of a bottleneck, but we have ideas to improve it
<McKinney> dholbach: Question: for example i am currently using a debian-package of gxine because the package from the repository freezes when i want to resize the window a movie is played in. i already reported the bug on launchpad but it is still not fixed. how long does it usually take to eliminate such bugs?
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<dholbach> we had packages that went in after a few days
<dholbach> but also packages that took much much longer
<dholbach> McKinney: if you have a fix ready, http://wiki.ubuntu.com/SponsorshipProcess is what you want
<dholbach> a lot of the problems you have in becoming part of the development community is talking to the right people and attracing the right people's interest in something
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<dholbach> there's a Media team, there's also the team that takes care of pending patches that are considered for upload
<dholbach> <poningru> dholbach: [12:19:53]  <Demon012> QUESTION: Is there a checklist for triaging?
<dholbach> for general bug triage you might want to read http://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingWithBugs
<dholbach> <YokoZar> dholbach: What about independent software vendors?  Is there any official process to help them create packages that play nice with universe (and perhaps eachother), even if the software can't go into universe?
<dholbach> YokoZar: we have the commercial repository as well - I think that Malcom Yates (mdy) is a good person to talk to about that
<dholbach> Teams
<dholbach> MOTU has formed a huge bunch of subteams already:
<dholbach>  * Games team
<dholbach>  * Media team
<dholbach>  * Science team
<dholbach>  * Photo team
<dholbach>  * UncommonProgrammingLanguages team
<dholbach>  * <and lots of others>
<dholbach> Some of the teams, which started in Universe, but now are working across the whole distro, the Mono team is a good example for that. If you have good ideas for a team and want to kickstart it, let me know: dholbach@ubuntu.com
<dholbach> jono will be able to help out as well.
<dholbach> Transitions! That's usually an easy way to get involved.
<dholbach> In order to use a new technology consistently across the whole archive, we sometimes need to change several hundreds of packages. This is gratifying work also, as it's sometimes easy to do and nice to do this within a team. Good examples of this were:
<dholbach>  * the switch from python2.3 to python2.4 (as a default)
<dholbach>  * the use of gcc4
<dholbach>  * the transition to use Xorg
<dholbach>  * ...
<dholbach> We used to have  H U G E   working lists on the wiki, nowadays we often use Malone to keep track of these.
<dholbach> We usually announce them on ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com - so if you're following that list, you can help out there easily.
<dholbach> <Demon012> dholbach: QUESTION: I found out yesterday that the packages are all source files in the repositories. How does proprietory software like Vmware get handled?
<dholbach> Demon012: we prefer source packages
<dholbach> Demon012: but if we have binaries that are redistributable we sometimes do that as well
<dholbach> Demon012: again - please refer to the ubuntu-archive team; they know better what is acceptable and what not
<dholbach> <emet> dholbach: QUESTION: Lets say I made a program, how do I get it inside the Ubuntu Universe repo?
<dholbach> emet: if you plan to do the packaging yourself, you'd follow the REVU process I mentioned above
<dholbach> emet: if you'd prefer somebody else to do it, let me quote:
<dholbach> [WWW]  file a bug in Launchpad and make sure it has the tag [WWW]  needs-packaging. Make sure you check which [WWW]  packages have already been requested. For packages in Debian, but not in ubuntu [WWW]  file a bug with the summary field "please sync package <packagename> from debian <distro>" where packagename is the package you would like to see.
<dholbach> that's from https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Packages/Candidates
<dholbach> Mentoring
<dholbach> We're doing huge efforts at helping people get up to scratch on packaging, especially #ubuntu-motu on irc.freenode.net is always buzzing and somebody is always awake to answer *your* packaging question.
<dholbach> But mentoring also happens on our ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com mailing list, in private chats, by doing reviews of packages and patches or via mail. Don't hesitate to approach us, join the Master of the Universe today! :-)
<dholbach> The team is also working out details to refine the process and make it easier for MOTU hopefuls and future mentors. We'll have a session at UDS about that: https://blueprints.beta.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/better-mentoring so if you're in Sevilla at that time, join in, if not add your ideas to the wiki page. We'll also work on getting a Mentoring mailing list ready.
<dholbach> Keep the questions coming in. :-)
<dholbach> Moving on to Merges
<dholbach> In the beginning of each release cycle we merge our efforts with those of the Debian maintainers. So this is what we currently do for Gutsy.
<dholbach> If you want to help out, just grab a merge from http://merges.ubuntu.com/universe.html or http://merges.ubuntu.com/multiverse.html and go ahead (NOTE: they are currently being updated and reworked, so in a few days they should be fine).
<dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Merging and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/School/Merging-and-Syncing also have more information on that process.
<dholbach> <Belutz> dholbach, QUESTIONS: is MOTU the one decided which version of apps that goes to repos?
<dholbach> Belutz: that's a two stage process: first MOTUs will review your package and upload it if they're ok with it; after that it has to pass the archive-admins
<dholbach> they can still reject it; not only if the license is problematic
<dholbach> but rejects mostly happen because of re-distributability
<dholbach> MOTU School
<dholbach> In the spirit of the Ubuntu's Open Week we already had some interesting MOTU School sessions: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/School - if you want to hold a session or request a session, let us know on the mailing list and on the wiki pages.
<dholbach> (also if you want to give a session :-))
<dholbach> Documentation!
<dholbach> Jordan Mantha (laserjock) and others have worked hard on the Packaging Guide, but they'd always be glad to have people who are interested in explaining and helping new MOTU hopefuls to find their way into the community. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Documentation lists a few pages of interest.
<dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU and its subpages could also do with some helping hands. MOTU is a community effort and has grown into all sorts of directions over time, the wiki pages bear witness of that, so it'd be great if you'd fix whatever documentation you found inaccurate. At UDS we're going to work on that too: https://blueprints.beta.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/motu-wiki-cleanup
<dholbach> <Belutz> dholbach, for example, sylpheed-claws is now claws-mail, and it has been a while before feisty release, but in feisty repos, is still using sylpheed-claws instead of claws-mail, and i believe claws-mail is already stable in ubuntu. Is that part of MOTU process or archive admin?
<dholbach> Belutz: are they both in Ubuntu already?
<dholbach> Belutz: and one could be replaced with the other?
<dholbach> that's an archive-admin decision then
<dholbach> mostly it's wise to also check what the Debian maintainer does
<dholbach> if they decide to go with a different name and you use the same name, you can do syncs of the source package more easily
<dholbach> Belutz: did I get your question right?
<dholbach> <Belutz> dholbach, the claws-mail is not in repo anyway, and i still find some old version apps in repos like gnucash, but maybe it's the archive admin decision then :)
<dholbach> Belutz: if the version is old, that's not a archive admin job
<dholbach> Belutz: up until UpstreamVersionFreeze (UVF) we can upload new versions as we see fit
<dholbach> see http://wiki.ubuntu.com/GutsyReleaseSchedule for that
<dholbach> after that you need to get approval
<dholbach> the NEW package of course is an archive admin thing
<dholbach> Who of you could imagine joining the MOTUs anytime soon?
<dholbach> <YokoZar> dholbach: QUESTION: My package gets updated every two weeks.  What's the absolute latest update I can submit that will get into the release?
<alterlaszlo> I would like to!
<dholbach> YokoZar: we need to make sure the software we upload can be tested realistically
<dholbach> YokoZar: uploading a new wine package with 1000s of lines of changes a week before release does not work out
<dholbach> <PriceChild> I would love to join MOTU but I just haven't got enough programming knowledege....
<dholbach> PriceChild and everybody else who'd like to join in: don't let the "programming skills" thing intimidate you: if you're truly interested in helping out, in packaging, fixing bugs and talking to upstream about them, trying patches, etc, you'll learn a lot along the way and are absolutely right for the job :)
<dholbach> <Belutz> dholbach, so how do you maintain a package (still using claws-mail as example), do you have to get in touch with the claws-mail developers? and how do you know that there are a new version of a package? do you have to search for it or how? sorry i ask a lot, because i'm still blur with the MOTU process
<dholbach> good question
<dholbach> being in touch with upstream is a VERY good thing
<dholbach> bear in mind that maintaining is not only about 'uploading a new upstream version' every now and then
<dholbach> it's also about reading bug reports from our users
<dholbach> trying to fix them, forwarding them to upstream etc etc
<dholbach> you do want a good relationship with them, as they can help you to do things like: 1) write debugging documentation for the bug squad, 2) enable the right options by default, 3) discuss our and their release schedule, etc etc
<YokoZar> dholbach: I could speak to that, coming from upstream myself.  There are 30+ active, full time Wine developers, and right now I'm the only guy reading the bug reports in launchpad (or user complaints on the forum) and forwarding them where appropriate.
<dholbach> YokoZar: thanks a lot for that
<dholbach> <Belutz> dholbach, for a packages that have problems with dependecies, is it MOTU jobs to fix it? or the packages developer?
<dholbach> Belutz: dependencies are a packaging problem, which should be fixed by its maintainer or a MOTU, yes
<dholbach> somtimes you can work around dependencies on a source code level but you rarely need to do that
<dholbach> it's more about changing the right bits in the debian/ dir of the source package
<dholbach> for those of you who want to become members of the MOTUs, please check http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Mentors
<dholbach> and don't be shy to ask questions
<YokoZar> Launchpad's "link to upstream bug" feature is particularly useful, especially because it lets the upstream bughunters find people's fixes in Ubuntu itself.  For a project as large and complex as Wine, there's also a surprising amount of effort that needs to go into making sure it still builds right in Ubuntu (Wine comes out every two weeks, and over half of my changelog entries are things other than "new upstream version")
<dholbach> we have lots of bugs to work on: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Bugs
<Clemens>  /msg nickserv register Clem92 xxspkezi
<dholbach> also there are lots of packaging requests open: https://bugs.beta.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.tag=needs-packaging
<dholbach> <YokoZar> dholbach: QUESTION: Earlier, you said you used to just be a regular MOTU and then became a canonical employee.  Were you approached by Canonical for paid work, or did you apply?  How long did it take?
<dholbach> I talked to Mark at that time and approached him about it and had a job interview, etc
<dholbach> I don't know how long it took, but I could find out reading old mails if you really want to know :)
<dholbach> <Belutz> dholbach, for a new member who do not know enough about programming, who do you recommend as a mentor?
<dholbach> Belutz: the mentoring page I suggested lists a few people who are willing to mentor
<dholbach> if you like to make things work and have a natural curiosity, you're right in the team :)
<dholbach> you can also mail ubuntu-motu@ and ask for a mentor
<dholbach> we'll try to have a mentoring mailing list online soon and will announce it
<dholbach> <YokoZar> dholbach: How long were you an MOTU before you did it full time?  Was it within a single release?  Or like years?
<dholbach> YokoZar: let's have this discussion in private - I don't mind talking about it publically, but I don't think it has much to do with joining the MOTU team
<dholbach> any other questions?
<dholbach> sorry, for the '.beta' in the launchpad link
<dholbach> <adamant1988> dholbach QUESTION: on avg. how much time would you say a MOTU invests in packaging/etc.?
<dholbach> adamant1988: we have some MOTUs who just spend bits of a week on making sure the packages they work on work correclty
<dholbach> adamant1988: there's also nothing wrong with saying 'I don't have time in the next half of the year'
<dholbach> adamant1988: but we also have people who you can find nearly 24h in #ubuntu-motu ;-)
<dholbach> I'll disregard elkbuntu's question ;-)
<dholbach> elkbuntu: thanks for the flowers :)
<elkbuntu> awww :
<dholbach> <YokoZar> dholbach: QUESTION: Are backports maintained by the MOTU team directly, or coordination with a special backports person?
<dholbach> YokoZar: we have a backports team who does the processing
<dholbach> YokoZar: they usually take the build from the new ubuntu release, make sure it builds nicely on the old release, it installs, etc etc and then process it
<dholbach> <_emet_> QUESTION: How does MOTU ensure that a package does not contain dangerous code?
<dholbach> _emet_: we are always wary of code that gets installed to /usr/sbin and the archive-admins also check the code roughly
* dholbach hugs elkbuntu
<elkbuntu> :D
<dholbach> If you arrived a bit late for the session, Steven Harms will do another session on Thu 26th Apr 16:00 UTC. Thanks Steven!
<dholbach> if there are no more questions... :)
<dholbach> drop me a mail if you want to know anything about the MOTUs or are interested in joining the team
<dholbach> (ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com should work too)
<dholbach> Have a nice day.
<dholbach> <YokoZar> dholbach: BONUS QUESTION: Has anyone from whomever owns the comic ever officially complained about the name "masters of the universe" ? ;)
<dholbach> no, luckily they did not :)
<dholbach> <mc44> dholbach: QUESTION: does drum and bass aid with packaging? :p
<dholbach> mc44: it absolutely does - it gets me right on track :)
<dholbach> mc44: http://daniel.holba.ch/blog/?cat=12 :-)
<dholbach> see you
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<sabdfl> morning/afternoon/evening all
<sabdfl> sorry for my tardiness, schedule-itis
<sabdfl> ok! this is a Q&A session
<sabdfl> so please fire away
<sabdfl> will someone volunteer to act as a secretary and keep track of questions?
<PriceChild> <JLP> QUESTION: Does Ubuntu have any plans to join forces with other Linux distributions, vendors and companies and together put some pressure on software companies and and offer them help so that they would port some of the most popular applications (like Photoshop, AutoCAD, ...) to Linux?
<sabdfl> PriceChild, JLP: we do already meet with ISV's, and encourage them to port to Linux
<sabdfl> they always take a business view of the market opportunity
<sabdfl> that's a factor of two things
<sabdfl> the raw number of users, and the willingness of those users to pay for software
<sabdfl> on the raw number, linux is doing very well
<sabdfl> so hardware folks are starting to take notice
<sabdfl> but on the ISV front, it's more challenging
<sabdfl> many folks are on free software in part because they do not have to pay
<sabdfl> there are some niche markets where that's not true - mostly places where Linux was a lower-cost (but not free) alternative to UNIX
<sabdfl> like workstations
<sabdfl> graphics, CAD, movie animation and effects etc
<sabdfl> but for raw consumers, i think the free software community should assume that we are going to have to build our own leaders in each of the major software categories
<sabdfl> because, unless something changes and linux users start to be willing to pay for apps, the ISV's are unlikely to port
<sabdfl> next?
<PriceChild> <adamant1988> sabdfl QUESTION: What are Canonical and Ubuntu doing to ensure enterprise quality in the Ubuntu Linux distribution? Are there any plan to include more 'user friendly' modifications to gnome (ala SLED), interoperability work, etc.?
<sabdfl> two separate questions, i'll address them separately
<sabdfl> on the quality front, i'm very excited about apport, and really want to credit pitti and the dev team with that infrastructure
<sabdfl> we are working to make it something that can be deployed for stable releases as well as development releases
<sabdfl> this will give us real stats as to places where apps break the most
<sabdfl> and allow us to improve the quality of packages after release on a systematic basis
<sabdfl> i'm also really pleased at the community iso testing effort, and the hardware database
<sabdfl> those are examples of places people can contribute to ensure that the whole platform works well
<sabdfl> and then we are working on per-package testing frameworks
<sabdfl> we have to figure out how to make those work well in the whole debian universe too
<sabdfl> on the user-friendly desktop mods front, we'll happily bring in work from other distros if it's a genuine improvement
<sabdfl> upstream's willingness to consider the patches is of course the acid test
<sabdfl> but we would bring something in that upstream was not yet ready for if we were really convinced ourselves
<sabdfl> if you think there are items that really should be included, then (a) make sure they are packages byworking with -core-dev or -motu
<sabdfl> and (b) participate in the ubuntu dev summit, in person or by voip, to motivate for their inclusion
<sabdfl> next question?
<PriceChild> <suzan> QUESTION: Mark, recently you told in an interview "the time for mass consumer sales of Linux on the desktop has not yet come". What do you think, when is the time for linux on the desktop? One year, two years, many more years? On what it will depend how quick the time comes?
<sabdfl> before mass consumer sales, we will see targeted niche markets
<sabdfl> so, for example, right now workstations are a Linux-heavy market
<sabdfl> i think there are some other specific markets that can be targeted
<sabdfl> in emerging markets, for example, price is a huge driver
<sabdfl> so we see people in brazil, china, africa etc being genuinely interested in linux
<sabdfl> not just in linux-before-priated-windows
<sabdfl> s/priated/pirated/
<sabdfl> and in the west, people have said very loudly they want it, we just need to figure out how to reach JUST those folks, and not accidental windows users
<sabdfl> sorry, windows users who accidentally buy linux
<sabdfl> next question?
<PriceChild> <kwah> QUESTION: Mark, what do you think about the latest MS 3$ initiative?
<sabdfl> clever move
<sabdfl> http://www.manilastandardtoday.com/?page=business6_april24_2007
<sabdfl> ^^^ he gets it
<sabdfl> free software is a far better platform for education than the $3 offer
<sabdfl>  - far more applications, means you can teach many more things with technology, not just word processing and spreadsheets
<sabdfl> for example, databases, programming languages, art apps, music, astronomy, statistics... you name it
<sabdfl>  - source code, means you can learn far more about how that technology works, important for super-star students who will rocket ahead of even their teachers
<sabdfl> - localisations, means you can teach in your n indigenous languages
<sabdfl> in short, education departments that really care about education have lots of reasons to choose free software rather than the cheap (and usage-limited) windows offer
<sabdfl> next question?
<PriceChild> <remix_tj> QUESTION: Mark, will exist in the future a certification relased by Canonical, like RedHat Certified Professional?
<sabdfl> remix_tj: yes!
<sabdfl> alon with training programs, and training materials
<sabdfl> next question?
<PriceChild> <mc44> QUESTION: How do you plan to make money out of launchpad? Is it generating revenue for you already?
<sabdfl> mc44: the first step will be to make it possible for people to subscribe and get the ability to annotate almost any data in LP, privately
<sabdfl> so, for example, private bugs, private specs, private branches
<sabdfl> then, we will also host other distributions that are ubuntu derivatives, so we handle all the building and archive management for them
<sabdfl> next question?
<PriceChild> <stuart_> QUESTION: Kubuntu is a great distro but (IMHO) lacks polish and features compared to Ubuntu. Are there any plans to bring in more paid Kubuntu developers now or in the future?
<sabdfl> stuart_: yes, the kubuntu team will expand, but i think kubuntu will always be more independent of canonical, which is in many was a good thing
<sabdfl> somethings happen first in ubuntu, because that's where we focus our resources for new releases, other things happen first in kubuntu, because the decisions there are more bottom-up
<sabdfl> next question?
<PriceChild> <McKinney> sabdfl: QUESTION: in last time there are discussions that ubuntu should not be released every 6 month. you shoult give the developers more time. what do you think about it?
<sabdfl> McKinney: i think the current system, of 6-month releases with LTS releases every 2-3 years, will work well
<sabdfl> there are no discussions or plans to change that at the moment
<sabdfl> next question?
<PriceChild> <kwah> QUESTION: What do you think about use of proprietary software in education? Shouldn't it be just a _privilege_ for software developers to provide SW for education without having any direct profits?
<sabdfl> kwah: no
<sabdfl> there's nothing wrong with the profit motive, unless society lets it run amok
<sabdfl> regulation is supposed to ensure that every business has checks and balances
<sabdfl> competition does the same
<sabdfl> i think it's naive to disregard the value of self-motivated investment
<sabdfl> i have no problem with proprietary software - microsoft has every reason to charge me to use software they wrote
<sabdfl> but i think the free software community can produce better software
<sabdfl> and i choose to use that instead
<sabdfl> next question?
<PriceChild> <pointwood> QUESTION: Any rough numbers on how many *buntu machines there are running in the world currently?
<sabdfl> 4-16 million, my best guess including derivatives is around 10 million
<sabdfl> next question?
<PriceChild> <mallux> QUESTION: Did you have anything to do with Michael Dell running Feisty on his home laptop?
<sabdfl> no - i was as surprised as everyone else
<sabdfl> a good surprise, though :-)
<sabdfl> next question?
<PriceChild> <tsmithe> QUESTION: How are we doing on the bug 1 front?
<sabdfl> tsmithe: quite well I think. i'm seeing a lot of people who are NOT tech specialists talking about linux
<sabdfl> and who knows, perhaps ubuntu will shortly be available from your favourite source of PC's!
<sabdfl> how do YOU think we're doing on the Bug #1 front?
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<sabdfl> next question?
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<PriceChild> <Clem92> QUESTION: ShipIt is currently not available fr Xubuntu... will that also come for Xubuntu in the next time?
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<sabdfl> Clem92: i don't think so
<sabdfl> xubuntu, as i understand it, is a more specialist environment, so we probably would not fund cd shipments for it
<sabdfl> it's hard to justify on either philanthropic or business grounds
<sabdfl> though it would be nice at least if you could order xubuntu
<sabdfl> next question?
<PriceChild> <zul> QUESTION: where do you see Linux virtualization 3 years down the road?
<sabdfl> zul: i'd really like to see a free software solution that is comprehensive, stable and fast
<sabdfl> i'm pressed with the diversity of options
<sabdfl> xen, of course, and kvm and then container-style things like vServer and others
<sabdfl> *im*pressed, i should say
<sabdfl> now we need those to mature
<sabdfl> i hope ubuntu will be a good place for people to test those, as well as a good place for people to run things like vmware if they want
<sabdfl> next question?
<PriceChild> <Belutz> QUESTION: if a loco are creating a nation wide event, is it possible that we ask canonical for sponsor (aside from conference kits)?
<sabdfl> ask of course! we haven't sponsored anything like that before, but it is possible
<sabdfl> so feel free to make a case for it
<sabdfl> next question?
<PriceChild> <ryuujin_> QUESTION: why is launchpad a proprietary software?
<sabdfl> ryuujin_: several reasons
<sabdfl> first, it's worth pointing out that we fund a huge amount of GPL software development
<sabdfl> so LP is not non-free because we don't know any better in general
<sabdfl> we've thought about it very carefully
<sabdfl> the major reason is that LP is explicitly a short-term, WRONG solution to the problem
<sabdfl> the problem is a lack of information flow between projects
<sabdfl> the right solution, from an engineering perspective, is a federated, distributed, standards-based approach
<sabdfl> where data from bugzilla flows to LP, and into debbugs, and into roundup, and into sourceforge
<sabdfl> then everyone uses their preferred tools, and the data just migrates as needed
<sabdfl> but, we couldn't wait for that to happen, so we wrote a tool for ubuntu that new how to link to other tools
<sabdfl> it's centralised
<sabdfl> now, if there were MULTIPLE tools like that, it would divide the eyeballs interested in agregating this information
<sabdfl> so, imaging you have a bug, reported in ubuntu, debian, upstream and gentoo
<sabdfl> with LP, someone from each community just has to annotate it once, saying "our bug tracker knows about that issue, and we are tracking it as #324342"
<sabdfl> if there were multiple LP's, people would have to do that work multiple times
<sabdfl> the result would be a mess
<sabdfl> you would not have 1 bug number for 1 problem
<sabdfl> no more Bug #1!
<sabdfl> so that's the major issue
<sabdfl> we have released bits of code that we thought WOULD be useful to other communities
<sabdfl> either infrastructure stuff (Zope, SQLObject, translation bits etc)
<sabdfl> or app stuff
<sabdfl> we do have a plan to get to a point where we can GPL it
<sabdfl> but that involves a lot of work, and i think it will take time, i don't want anyone to expect it to be free in 2-3 years even
<sabdfl> but we're working to that roadmap, and will hopefully get there
<sabdfl> next question?
<PriceChild> <joebaker> QUESTION:  Do you have any opinions you'd like to share about the progress of GPL v3.0?
<sabdfl> only that i think it's important work, and a good transparent process, and I really hope they come to a result that the community embraces wholeheartedly, even Linus
<sabdfl> from the drafts, we're not there yet
<sabdfl> i do trust both rms and eben moglen
<sabdfl> when v3 is out, we'll take a decision about the code we have copyright in
<sabdfl> ultimately, though ubuntu is an aggregated work of hundreds of items under many licences
<sabdfl> so that will remain true :-)
<sabdfl> next question?
<PriceChild> <YokoZar> There is a strong chance that Wine will come out of beta sometime during Gutsy or Gutsy+1's development.  In the past several distributions (Corel, for instance) have included supported versions of Wine officially, to make other applications easily ported to their platform. This would allow Ubuntu to support the installation of Win32 software, both free and proprietary, via something like Add Applications or Click and R
<PriceChild> un.  What do you think of the idea?
<sabdfl> interesting
<sabdfl> i admire the WINE effort, hugely
<sabdfl> i think it's important
<sabdfl> but i don't think that the future of free software lies in running non-free software!
<sabdfl> we should definitely discuss it at the UDS, so please come along, and remind me to invite the WINE guys too
<sabdfl> next question?
<PriceChild> <\sh> QUESTION: Mark, good evening :) What is the best way to convince companies (who are providing DC services) to switch from regular RHEL or SLES/Novell Business Server  to Ubuntu Server, especially when you think about Oracles turn towards it's own Linux solution?
<sabdfl> DC services?
<sabdfl> you mean large-scale hosted servers?
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+v \sh]  by PriceChild
<\sh> sabdfl, DC == Datacenter :)
<sabdfl> it would be great if folks running huge data centers adopted ubuntu
<sabdfl> salesforce would be awesome
<sabdfl> ebay, amazon etc
<sabdfl> i think they would have a great experience, save money but still get great support
<sabdfl> are you asking becuase you know such a company?
<sabdfl> ok, i'll assume so
<\sh> sabdfl, in general...most companies are using RHEL or SLES because they are oracle certified...now oracle comes up with its own linux solution...how to convince our bosses that ubuntu is better
<sabdfl> ah, right
<sabdfl> well, the oracle test is one we have to pass, and we will do so eventually
<sabdfl> unfortunately, oracle's strategy means they will likely not look at the hard data showing rapid adoption of ubuntu in the wild
<sabdfl> because they want to see adoption of Unbreakable Linux (UBL)
<sabdfl> i tihnk they could have done UBL around Ubuntu and had a much better result already
<sabdfl> but they decided to do it as a RHAT clone
<sabdfl> we just have to be patient and keep growing elsewhere
<sabdfl> if you know a company that has a large data center, its worth asking them to find a niche area where they can test ubuntu
<sabdfl> usually they will do this in low-risk areas
<sabdfl> like web farms, or redundant compute farms
<sabdfl> and when they have a good experience there, they will often expand their use
<sabdfl> and put pressure on the ISV's they deal with to certify the platform
<sabdfl> a foot in the door is all it takes
<sabdfl> so try to find a low-risk area where they can try it
<sabdfl> next question?
<PriceChild> <[doctor] > QUESTION: Mark, what do you think about interaction at a level of the governments (Russia & East Europe) for distribution edubuntu. Any plans?
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-v \sh]  by PriceChild
<sabdfl> well, Georgia has already done a large program like that
<sabdfl> i think Armenia is looking at the same
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o imbrandon]  by ChanServ
<sabdfl> i do expect others to follow
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o ogra]  by ChanServ
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o ogra]  by ChanServ
<sabdfl> and we will work with any government that wants consulting and customisation help
<sabdfl> next question?
<PriceChild> <dinda> sabdfl: QUESTION:  In a recent interview you spoke about using a Web 2.0 to harness the power of user data/input.  Do you see a place for that within the Ubuntu Community?  For example an Ubuntu Community Space that serves as a front end to that data mining process.
<sabdfl> the ubuntu forums and ubuntu wiki are already an amazing resource for users
<sabdfl> it's incredible, the knowledge that is encapsulated there
<sabdfl> we are also seeing amazing work in the ubuntu question-and-answer tracker
<sabdfl> which formalises community support for the platform
<sabdfl> and builds a knowledgebase
<sabdfl> https://answers.launchpad.net/ubuntu
<sabdfl> there is a superb team building there
<sabdfl> i'm open to other suggestions too!
<sabdfl> next question?
<PriceChild> <Clem92> QUESTION: What OS do you use on your PCs at home and at work? Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Debian, etc?
<imbrandon> ( just a small note , you can poke me later about \sh , our company runs one of the largest PCI DC's in the USA and we're phasing out all our CentOS in favor of Ubuntu )
<sabdfl> imbrandon: would they consider being part of a case study?
<imbrandon> definately
<sabdfl> Clem92: i use ubuntu on my laptop, kubuntu on my desktop, i also have a MacOS PPC machine at home
<sabdfl> and i've seen vista running in a virtual machine, but never for very long :-)
<sabdfl> next question?
<PriceChild> <adamant1988> sabdfl QUESTION:  I think we all recognize Canonical ltd.'s importance to the Ubuntu project's continued growth and prosperity, however Canonical remains a mysterious figure to Ubuntu users because it is a private corporation.  I'm sure many users of Ubuntu are concerned with Canonical's financials (profit, etc.) and would like to invest (read: buy stock) in the company.  Are there any plans to 'go public', if not w
<PriceChild> hy?
<sabdfl> no plans to go public at this stage, though it's nice to have lots of VC's expressing interest
<sabdfl> i don't want to take a short-term view, and the markets ultimately force you into that
<sabdfl> it's rare to find public companies that don't have that pressure, or even VC-funded private companies, and right now we have the luxury of having plenty of funding and a long-term mandate to change the economics of the software industry in a profound, philanthropic and commercial way
<sabdfl> we are slowly building up a revenue stream in canonical, all of which gets reinvested in ubuntu
<sabdfl> my dream is to build something unique: a genuinely free platform, that PAYS FOR ITSELF
<sabdfl> that has never existed before, but i believe it can exist, and our goal is to find out
<sabdfl> at the same time, canonical and ubuntu are separate entities
<sabdfl> other companies are starting to invest in ubuntu too
<sabdfl> sometimes via canonical (contracts for development, ports etc)
<sabdfl> and sometimes directly (hiring developers and getting them to spend time on ubuntu or kubuntu)
<sabdfl> ubuntu is bigger than canonical, and that's a very good thing
<sabdfl> it would be nice to have more non-canonical people in the CC and techboard
<sabdfl> nobody can buy their way onto those
<PriceChild> <erstazi> QUESTION: where do you see Ubuntu in 10 or 20 years?
<sabdfl> but as more companies devote full-time engineers to ubuntu, it's more likely that they will be able to build the necessary experience and credibility to hold a seat their on their own merits
<sabdfl> erstazi: that's a very long time, my crystal ball gets all cloudy :-)
<sabdfl> right now, the goal is (a) be the best free software desktop possible, and (b) work towards being sustainable without licence fees
<sabdfl> that's all i can see!
<sabdfl> next question?
<PriceChild> I hadn't prepared another question as we've reached the end of the hour already!
<sabdfl> is it kiko-time?
<PriceChild> Thanks very much sabdfl
<sabdfl> kikomatic, you're up
<sabdfl> thanks everybody, great questions!
<PriceChild> Thankyou everyone else for all your questions!
<PriceChild> I'm sorry we get you answers all of them
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-m]  by PriceChild
<kiko> hello hello
<mc44> sabdfl: thanks for your time
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o kiko]  by PriceChild
<kiko> hello hello
<McKinney> thank you sabdfl
<kiko> and welcome to one more round of Launchpad Q&A :)
<PriceChild> kiko we can stay +m if you would like?
<suzan> thanks a lot, it was very interessting
<hendrixski> Thanks sabdfl that was amazing
<kiko> PriceChild, that's fine if people post me questions on theparate chat channel
<kiko> err
<kiko> separate chat channel :)
<PriceChild> kiko "/mode +m" if you want to stop people chatting in here... I'm afraid I've got to run for 30 minutes, good luck!
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o PriceChild]  by PriceChild
<ogra> PriceChild, topic update ?
<Tm_T> PriceChild: thanks for your time once again :)
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o PriceChild]  by ChanServ
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-classroom:PriceChild] : The topic for #ubuntu-classroom is: Ubuntu Open Week || SCHEDULE: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek || RULES: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules Please respect them || LOGS: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs || Ask questions and chat in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, "QUESTION: <insert question here>" || Launchpad Q+A - Kiko
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o PriceChild]  by ChanServ
<ogra> :)
<kiko> thanks to everyone for showing up
<kiko> it's always hard speaking /after/ mark :)
<imbrandon> :)
<kiko> I run the Launchpad project, together with Steve Alexander, my alter ego currently in Amsterdam
<kiko> we have a team of 20+ developers building features, ensuring quality and planning ahead
<kiko> in previous sessions I've done a lot of covering the basics
<kiko> explaining why we are doing Launchpad
<kiko> what it's useful for
<kiko> why we think it is key to collaboration in open source
<kiko> given this is a Q&A session, however, you get to choose what I explain :)
<kiko> so post your questions to #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<kiko> and I will do my best to cook up good answers to them
<kiko> and if they are not good, well.. I can blame brazilian narcotics!
<kiko> ditsch posted an interesting question:
<kiko> Are there plans to merge the answers section with forums or mailing lists?That would be nice since the answers section is not that common to users, I think.
<kiko> there are plans to integrate mailing lists as a Launchpad offering
<kiko> we haven't considered yet the link to the specific applications
<kiko> and I'm not sure it would be easy to find a trivial link to the answer tracker because of the way the questions and answers are posted.
<kiko> perhaps it is possible to model the individual conversations as threads
<kiko> and offering a mailing list digest of the questions and answers.
<kiko> it's a possibility. however, note that the answer tracker offers a full email interface
<kiko> meaning that questions posted can be replied to via email
<kiko> and the answers are handled properly
<kiko> so there is something of the convenience of a mailing list there -- albeit not with mbox exports
<kiko> okay, I have a controversial question by laszlok :)
<kiko> If there's a bug for launchpad that's being ignored for whatever reason (you guys are probably very busy) is there anything else a launchpad user (with programming skills) can do? Do I have to wait for one you guys to get around to deal with my small bug? Theres a lot of small things that could easily improve launchpad, but most of you guys seem busy with more important things.
<kiko> so this is actually a shortcoming in our development process
<kiko> and one which we are seriously intending to address
<kiko> now so far we have been working hard to produce a feature-complete 1.0 release
<kiko> based on an original roadmap that mark and the team put together over 2 years ago
<kiko> (I'm thinking about the answer :)
<kiko> so we are working hard to put in place a better release process for launchpad
<kiko> up to now we have been really chasing hard our feature list
<kiko> but we are now at a point where the releases will be publically planned ahead
<kiko> and a clear roadmap will be made available so that people can check what we are doing.
<kiko> I also want to point out that you /can/ as a user hop on to #launchpad and provide us with advice
<kiko> and suggestions to fix ou favorite bugs
<kiko> your favorite bugs
<kiko> another question from DoctorOwl
<kiko> QUESTION: Is Launchpad only for projects that run on Ubuntu?  And if not, how would you compare it to another offering like Sourceforge?
<kiko> Launchpad is definitely /not/ for Ubuntu only!
<kiko> Ubuntu was our first official user
<kiko> and definitely one of the most important
<kiko> however
<kiko> there are many projects, large and small, that are adopting Launchpad
<kiko> you can use as much as Launchpad as you like
<kiko> if you want to try out the bug tracker, you can do so without committing to doing translations or answer tracking
<kiko> so it is really a lot easier that taking up a whole new project management system
<kiko> some of our newest and more visible projects include Zope and Silva
<kiko> but just browse the product listing and you'll get an idea of how many different products are registered and officially using Launchpad
<kiko> The about page said there are tools to convert from other services to launchpad.  Is one of those tools sourceforge -> launchpad?
<kiko> sorry, that was a question
<kiko> but hitched onto the previous one!
<kiko> so the answer is that yes, we have custom importer for different bug trackers
<kiko> and you can request an import if your project is considering moving to Launchpad
<kiko> so if you want to try Launchpad out
<kiko> come talk to me on #launchpad
<kiko> and I will help sort it out for you.
<kiko> an interesting question from McKinney:
<kiko> Question: what do you think are the advantages and disadvantages of launchpad?
<kiko> whew. it's always easy to list advantages :-)
<kiko> a few of the more visible ones:
<kiko> - single integrated platform for managing your project: translations, bugs, specifications, code and user support, all in one consistent and publically-available UI
<kiko> - a commitment from Canonical to run the Launchpad servers for you, and to maintain a high quality of service, and good turnaround on questions and problems.
<kiko> - a collection of great developers and a user community discussing features and implementation openly
<chapular> hello
<kiko> - the integration with other projects. you get easy access to bugs and translations coming in via the Ubuntu project, which is an amazing magnet
<kiko> you can also participate in the discussion of a bug with other projects if you share the issue
<kiko> Launchpad was really conceived to facilitate this interchange
<kiko> - of course, the most sympathetic and friendly project managers you will ever run into :-)
<almighurt> Hi wastel
<kiko> let me try answering the second half there
<kiko> which is definitely /not/ an easy one :-)
<kiko> namely, disadvantages with taking up Launchpad
<kiko> we don't natively support CVS or Subversion repositories as Sourceforge does
<kiko> so that's one thing you should keep in mind; however we do offer an import service that converts those to Bazaar (bzr) branches
<kiko> so it is easy to let developers try Bazaar out if they are considering changing over
<McKinney> thank you kiko
<kiko> Launchpad has its own particular UI, and while many people like it, some do not
<kiko> we don't really offer much in the way of UI customizability today
<kiko> but we may soon
<almighurt> Hi Xk2c
<kiko> so if your project is considering shifting, that's something to consider discussing with your user community.
<almighurt> Hi miklov_
<McKinney> thanks for your particular answer.
<kiko> what else, what else
<almighurt> Hi chuckf
<kiko> McKinney, am I off the hook for disadvantages
<cellojoe> <DoctorOwl> QUESTION: Where do you think Launchpad will be in a years time?
<chapular> QUESTION: So what do you think about the open source philosophy extending in to the real qorld?
<chapular> world*
<kiko> can I choose cellojoe's question? :)
<DoctorOwl> Hehe
<kiko> heh
<chapular> i meant outside of software
<chapular> and computers
<kiko> in a year's time we will have a number of interesting features
<chapular> into real world interactions
<kiko> available in Launchpad
<kiko> I will try not to get fired by discussing some of them with you :)
<kiko> - we will offer a system to let end-users easily produce and offer distribution packages
<almighurt> Hi tintin
<chuckf> sorry for showing up late
<kiko> - we will implement integration with mailing list services and offer that as an additional Launchpad feature
<Xk2c> cool
<kiko> - we will offer an automated FAQ system that makes it easy to build answers based on Q&A coming from the answer tracker
<kiko> - we will implement much more interesting XMLRPC API that allows you to query Launchpad for objects representing your data
<kiko> okay. I have given up 4 features and now I am getting flak in the back so I will have to stop :)
<kiko> let me rush to some other question fast!
<kiko> <xerosis> QUESTION: Is there a plan/wish to get other distos using LP? How feasible do you think this is
<kiko> we definitely wish other distros were using LP
<kiko> it would be interesting to see all the Ubuntu derivatives move on, because it's an easy step for them
<kiko> but there are significant advantages in having all this information kept in a single place
<kiko> so yes, and if there are other distros that want to move over, please by all means talk to me!
<kiko> <chuckf> QUESTION: Is it possible as a team admin to unjoin 'my' group from another that I was joined to without being asked?
<kiko> I'm not sure I understand that question 100%
<kiko> if you are a team owner you have full control of membership
<kiko> you can include and remove admins as you wish
<kiko> ah! I think I understand now
<kiko> sure -- a team admin can remove any member
<kiko> he just needs to use the +members link
<kiko> <chuckf> QUESTION: How easy is it to backup/save the cumulative work done through LP?
<kiko> we will offer exports on demand to projects
<kiko> this is really something we will be improving post-1.0
<kiko> because we want projects to feel safe and rewarded in using Launchpad -- not trapped!
<kiko> if you want an export /now/ please come and talk to me, I will help sort it out.
<kiko> <xerosis> kiko: won't this centralised source of information sit badly with other open-source people?
<kiko> so this is a controversial question, but me -- I love controversy :-)
<kiko> you could argue that centralizing actually improves things, because information which is hard to locate and match up is kept in a consistent and unified view
<kiko> you could tongue in cheek say "single point in failure"
<kiko> err point of failure
<kiko> and while that is true in terms of infrastructure we have committed serious resources to keeping the service running and running well
<kiko> we also try really hard to allow easy access to any data you need
<kiko> and will be providing more features on this front as 1.0 progresses.
<kiko> okay! I need more questions :)
<kiko> (I should have pointed out that that was an additional disadvantage -- you need to ask us for exports of data today, we haven't automated the process)
<kiko> <chuckf> QUESTION: Are there plans to expand the critera for karma points to other aspects of the Ubuntu world, i.e. forum contributions
<kiko> a strong yes is the answer
<kiko> distribution packaging, for instance, really needs karma credit accounting
<kiko> handling forum contributions is something I'm not sure how easy would be
<kiko> I'm not very familiar with how the forums work
<kiko> but if there's a will there's a way..
* Clem92 test
<kiko> <`23meg> QUESTION: Is a  translation string search feature being worked on?
<kiko> YES
<kiko> we need to do a database refactoring for this to work without bringing Launchpad down though.
<kiko> you may have noticed that google now indexes translation pages
<kiko> so it's becoming easier to check there
<kiko> but this is a really important post-1.0 feature
<kiko> <rohan> QUESTION: even though many other projects are using launchpad, right now the general perception is "launchpad == ubuntu". why are proects like kde, debian not shifting to launchpad ? is there any work being done to promote that ?
<kiko> thanks for asking that one rohan
<rohan> :)
<kiko> I need to make it clear that shifting to Launchpad is a /lot/ harder for a larger project.
<kiko> the community is larger and will have more diverse opinions
<kiko> the current toolset and process will have been specialized to what they are currently used to
<kiko> there is a lot more process that needs to be adequately supported
<kiko> this is the reason why larger projects don't flock en-masse to launchpad (or to sourceforge, for that matter)
<kiko> we are winning them over, but it takes some time
<kiko> smaller projects find it much easier to move over
<kiko> because it's easier to convince people, and to adapt processes. that's natural
<kiko> we want to offer good service to both -- let's see them coming in!
<kiko> <allee> Has/will lauchpad support distribution of tarballs?  I know some projects that only use sf to upload/distribute the tarballs of releases
<kiko> allee, YES. definitely planned feature.
<kiko> (and some implementation going on already)
<kiko> <richb> QUESTION: You mentioned Sourceforge as being comparable to Launchpad, Sourceforge seems to have problems scaling, do you have any projections on how Launchpad will scale when the number of projects increases?
<kiko> Launchpad needs to scale. we are looking to serious replication to make it grow as projects come on
<kiko> replication is non-trivial but it is something we have been considering for a long time
<kiko> I'm sure we will crack this nut -- we have very good controls on QoS and performance that allow us to gauge how it's going
<kiko> <rohan> QUESTION: i don't know if it's already answered, but if i am writing a new program, is launchpad supposed to be used "standalone" or alongside some other service such has sf or berlios ?
<kiko> the answer is yes -- you can use it for your own projects, just like sf and berlios.
<kiko> <\sh> QUESTION:  Launchpad uses ZOPE as backend for most of the services...using ZOPE by myself as documentation management system in our company, it shows us many pitfalls regarding speed and other things..how do you overcome those things with LP?
<kiko> we use Zope 3, which is pretty different from Zope 2
<kiko> we find the platform really scalable and good to work with
<kiko> extremely flexible and easy to adapt
<kiko> it does require some understanding of the platform to ease customization
<kiko> and there is a ramp-up to getting started that is pretty steep
<kiko> but once you know it you appreciate how well thought out it is.
<kiko> <\sh> kiko, are you using zopeDB for hte backend, or another db for storing infos? ;)
<kiko> we don't use the zodb. we use postgresql and a database abstraction layer.
<\sh> kiko, thx for answering :) good work :)
<kiko> sure thing
<kiko> <pwnguin> QUESTION: If Launchpad was open sourced, would it be released under the affero or gpl?
<kiko> Launchpad /will/ eventually be open sourced.
<kiko> I'm not sure what license would be used.
<kiko> so it's time to wrap up
<kiko> and thank you guys for many interesting questions
<kiko> I will hand off gracefully to pitti
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o PriceChild]  by ChanServ
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-classroom:PriceChild] : The topic for #ubuntu-classroom is: Ubuntu Open Week || SCHEDULE: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek || RULES: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules Please respect them || LOGS: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs || Ask questions and chat in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, "QUESTION: <insert question here>" || CURRENT SESSION: Patching Packages - Martin Pitt
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o PriceChild]  by ChanServ
<kiko> and let you guys know that I am on again, at the same time, on thursday.
<kiko> thanks!
* pitti takes the microphone, thank you kiko!
<kiko> rock on pitti
* jjesse cheers for kiko
* kiko waves
* pitti rings the schoolbell
<pitti> welcome everyone to my workshop about patching packages
<pitti> quick strawpoll, how big is the audience? who is interested in learning about that?
<heikki> o/
<shiyee> o/
<rohan> \o
<jona_> o/
<richb> +1
<dasmaze> o/
<bleinmono> +1
<balrok>  me
<Xk2c> me2
* pitti apologizes in advance for his ~ 20 second lag
<cellojoe>  ./
<sebasgro> ++
<ditsch> +1
* `23meg raises hand
<Tm_T> \o/
<pitti> splendid; sounds like a good size for a hands-on workshop :)
<pitti> if anyone has any question, or I'm totally uncomprehensible (sorry for my English, I'm German), please do not hesitate to interrupt and ask *immediately*
<pitti> technical questions in #-chat, please
<pitti> Also, don't bother trying to take notes, we'll sort that out at the end. You can fully concentrate on the discussion and examples.
<pitti> Let's begin with a little bit of history:
<pitti> <rohan> pitti: just before we start - is it specifically debian/ubuntu packages patching, or source package patching ?
<pitti> ^ this seminar is very Debian/Ubuntu specific
<pitti> I assume that you already know what a 'patch' is
<pitti> and why you want to do one :)
<pitti> == Why use separate patches in Debian/Ubuntu source packages ==
<pitti> In earlier times, people just applied patches inline (i. e. directly in the source code tree). However, this makes it very hard to extract patches later to modify them, send them upstream, etc. Also this means that new upstream versions are a pain, since they generate a lot of rejections when applying the package diff.gz to them.
<pitti> With split-out patches it is much easier to send them upstream, keep track of them, develop them, etc., since you always see which changes belong together.
<pitti> The ideal state is an unmodified tarball from upstream, plus clean and separate patches, plus the packaging bits in debian/. That means that lsdiff <sourcepackage>.diff.gz only contains debian/.
<pitti> The first attempts to split-out patches were pretty trivial: storing patches in debian/patches/, and adding some patch/patch -R snippets to debian/rules. This worked for small patches, but provided no tools for editing these patches, updating them for new upstream versions, etc.
<pitti> Thus several standard patch systems were created which are easy to deploy and provide tools for patch juggling and editing.
<pitti> What I would like to do now is to introduce the most common patch systems and show some hands-on demo how to add a new patch and how to edit one. For this, I will point at a source package from the current feisty archive, quickly explain the patch system, and show how to apply some (braindead) modifications to it. I recommend you to do the same steps in a terminal, so that you get a feeling for the process and can immediately ask questions.
<pitti> everyone you fine with this approach?
<pitti> erm, s/you/is/
<habeeb> yes, sir.
* shiyee nods
<heikki> yep
<cellojoe> o/
<pitti> btw, feel free to put answers to my questions directly here; that's easier to follow than in -chat
<pitti> If you want to try the stuff yourself, please do the following commands (on feisty) as preparation:
<pitti>   sudo apt-get install dpatch cdbs quilt patchutils devscripts
<pitti>   apt-get source cron udev pmount gnome-volume-manager ed xterm
<pitti>   wget http://people.ubuntu.com/~pitti/scripts/dsrc-new-patch
<pitti>   chmod 755 dsrc-new-patch
<pitti> I deliberately picked the smallest packages I could find
* pitti waits a bit for people to do the preparations; any questions so far?
<habeeb> pitti: let's say that we use Gentoo. Can we try it?
<rohan> habeeb: no, read the question to my answer :)
<habeeb> sorry.
<jmoore> hey everyone! You guys liking Open Week?
<rohan> jmoore: rocking ! :)
<pitti> habeeb: sorry, as I said this stuff only applies to packaging Debian-style source packages
<habeeb> pitti: ok, sorry. move on, please.
<pitti> please someone give me a ping when you are finished with above preparations
<heikki> i'm ready
<scresawn> ready
<the> So the next class is at 3pm
<shiyee> done
<robotangel> alright
* pitti will just go on, cry out to slow me down
<pitti> == cron: inline patches ==
<pitti> No patch system at all, nothing much to say about this.  You directly edit the files in the source tree. This is convenient for a simple and quick change, but will bite back for new upstream versions (see above) and is inconvenient for submitting patches upstream, or reviewing for merges.
<pitti> if you do 'lsdiff <package>.diff.gz' and you see changes which are not in debian/, then you probably have such a package
<pitti> (some KDE packages have autoconf stuff directly in the diff.gz, but that is ok)
<pitti> so, I think I do not need to say anything else about cron, unless someone has a question?
<shiyee> pitti: lsdiff cron_3.0pl1-100ubuntu1.diff.gz doesn't give me any output...
<rohan> pitti: i did not understand the KDE thing
<pitti> shiyee: lsdiff -z
<pitti> sorry
<pitti> rohan: KDE has a rule called 'buildprep' which automatically updates configure, Makefile.in etc. from configure.ac/Makefile.am etc.
<pitti> rohan: those are entirely autogenerated changes, so developers do not need to maintain these manually
<rohan> ah, ok :)
<pitti> ok, let's go on then
<pitti> == udev: separate patches, but no standard patch system ==
<pitti> This case is the most complicated one since you have to do all the hard work manually. In order to make you understand what a patch system does, and to give you a fallback method that will *always* work with any patch system, I handle this first.
<pitti> The good news is that you will seldomly be required to actually do this procedure, since for many packages there are nice tools which make things a charm.
<pitti> The bad news is that it may seem utterly complicated for people who never did it before, but I would like you to understand what's actually going on behind the curtains of the tools.
<pitti> So please do not desperate if you do not fully understand it at first; there's written documentation and you can always take your time to grok it.
<pitti> The general approach is:
<pitti> 1. copy the clean source tree to a temporary directory /tmp/old
<pitti> 2. apply all patches up to the one you want to edit; if you want to create a new patch, apply all existing ones (this is necessary since in general patches depend on previous patches)
<pitti> 3. copy the whole source tree again: cp -a /tmp/old /tmp/new
<pitti> 4. go into /tmp/new, do your modifications
<pitti> 5. go back into /tmp and generate the patch with
<pitti>   diff -Nurp old new > mypatchname.patch
<pitti> 6. move the newly generated patch to <original source dir>/debian/patches/mypatchname.patch
<pitti> in general we want the following diff options:
<pitti> -N -> include new files
<pitti> -u -> unified patches (context diffs are ugly)
<pitti> -r -> recursive
<pitti> -p -> bonus, you can see the name of the affected function in the patch
<pitti> does anyone have a question about the principle method?
<rohan> pitti: how would the patch system know in what order to apply "mypatchname.patch" ?
<pitti> rohan: most patch systems just use asciibetical ordering of files in debian/patches
<pitti> rohan: there are some notable exceptions, I will mention them later
<rohan> ok :)
<crevette> so you need to prefix it with 10- 20-
<crevette> ?
<pitti> but you can usually rely on the rule that whenever you need this by-hand approach it is asciibetical
<pitti> crevette: that's the common practice, yes
<pitti> much like in good old BASIC days :-P
<pitti> ok, some hands-on example
<pitti> open a shell, ready your fingers :)
<pitti> udev example 1, let's create a new patch 92_penguins.patch:
<pitti>   cd /whereever/you/unpacked/the/source/udev-108
<pitti> -> now we are in our original source tree where we want to add a new patch
<pitti>   cp -a . /tmp/old
<pitti> -> create a copy of the clean sources as reference tree
<pitti>   pushd /tmp/old
<pitti> -> go to /tmp/old; 'pushd' to remember the previous directory, so that we can go back conveniently
<pitti>   debian/rules patch
<pitti> -> apply all already existing patches; of course we could use the 'patch' program to do it manually, but since debian/rules already knows how to do it, let's use it. The actual name for the patch target varies, I have seen the following ones so far: patch, setup, apply-patches, unpack, patch-stamp. You have to look in debian/rules how it is called.
<pitti>   cp -a . /tmp/new; cd ../new
<pitti> -> copies our patched reference tree to our new work directory /tmp/new where we can hack in
<pitti> that's the preparatory part
<pitti> let's do a braindead modification now
<pitti>   sed -i 's/Linux/Penguin/g' README
<pitti> -> changes the README file; of course you can use your favourite editor, but I wanted to keep my examples copy&pasteable
<pitti> and now we create a patch between the reference and our new tree:
<pitti>   cd ..
<pitti> -> go back to /tmp, i. e. where our reference tree (old) and hacked tree (new) is located
<pitti>   diff -Nurp old new > 95_penguins.patch
<pitti> -> generate the patch (Ignore the 'recursive directory loop' warnings)
<pitti> btw, NB that we need to be in /tmp for that
<pitti> so that the directories in the patch start with 'old/' and 'new/' (patchlevel 1, which is most common)
<pitti>   popd
<pitti> -> now you should be back in your original source tree (when you did the pushd)
<pitti>   rm -rf /tmp/old /tmp/new
<pitti> -> clean up the temporary trees
<pitti>   mv /tmp/95_penguins.patch debian/patches
<pitti> -> move the patch from /tmp to the source tree's patch directory, where it belongs.
<pitti> *uff* :)
<pitti> Now take a look at your shiny new debian/patches/95_penguins.patch.
<pitti> after that, if you do 'debian/rules patch', you'll see that the patch applies cleanly; please do 'debclean' afterwards to unapply the patches and get back a pristine source tree
<pitti> so, obviously that's not the end of the wisdom, but if you do these steps a couple of times, you should get a feeling for how to create the most complicated patch conceivable
<pitti> so this procedure is the life safer if anything else fails
<pitti> questions?
* pitti wonders whether he managed to kill his complete audience now
<pitti> but promised, from now on it will get really easy :)
<crevette> no no no
* rohan pinds pitti 
<rohan> *pings
<crevette> I'm lagging a bit
<crevette> :)
<pitti> Pretty much work, isn't it? Since this happens pretty often, I created a very dumb helper script 'dsrc-new-patch' for this purpose. Using this, above steps would reduce to:
<sebasgro> how do i do debclean?
<pitti_> erk, WTF?
<richb> netsplit?
<pitti> I think I'm back now
<pitti> <pitti> sebasgro: it's contained in the 'devscripts' package
<crevette> yes
* pitti will go back a step, just in case
<pitti> Since this happens pretty often, I created a very dumb helper script 'dsrc-new-patch' for this purpose. Using this, above steps would reduce to:
<pitti>   ../dsrc-new-patch 95_penguins.patch
<pitti>   sed -i 's/Linux/Penguin/g' README
<pitti>   <press Control-D to leave the subshell>
<pitti> that looks slightly better, doesn't it? If you like the script, please put it into your ~/bin, so that it is in your $PATH
<pitti> but I had to torture you with the close-to-the-metal method for the sake of understanding.
<pitti> I have a second example prepared which changes an existing patch, but I'll spare you that thing; if you are interested, we can talk about it afterwards
<pitti> Since this is so hideously complicated, patch systems were invented to aid you with that. Let's look at the most popular ones now (they are sufficient to allow you to patch about 90% of the archive's source packages; for the rest you have to resort to the manual approach above).
<pitti> == pmount: cdbs with simple-patchsys ==
<pitti> cdbs' simple-patchsys.mk module matches its name, it has no bells and whistles whatsoever. However, it is pretty popular since it is sufficient for most tasks, and long ago I wrote a script 'cdbs-edit-patch' which most people can live with pretty well. This script is contained in the normal cdbs package.
<pitti> You just supply the name of a patch to the script, and depending on whether it already exists or not, it will create a new patch or edit an existing one.
<pitti> everyone please look in debian/patches, debian/rules to get a feeling how it looks like
<pitti> so, let's mess up pmount a bit and add a new patch
<pitti>   cd /whereever/you/unpacked/the/source/pmount-0.9.13
<pitti>   cdbs-edit-patch 03-simple-readme.patch
<pitti>   echo 'This should document pmount' > README
<pitti>   <press Control-D to leave the subshell>
<pitti> easy, isn't it?
<pitti> this will take care of applying all patches that need to be applied, can change patches in the middle of the stack, and also create new ones
<pitti> Editing an already existing patch works exactly the same way.
<pitti> so I won't give a demo
<pitti> BTW, "cdbs-edit-patch" is slightly misleading, since it actually only applies to simple-patchsys.mk. You can also use other cdbs patch system plugins, such as dpatch or quilt.
<pitti> questions?
<rohan> what is "cdbs" ? what does it stand for ?
<pitti> it's spelled out 'common Debian build system'
<pitti> it provides template code for debian/rules
<pitti> i. e. common things like 'use autoconf for configuring, make install for shuffling the files around, use intltool to build .pot files, and integrate patch systems
<pitti> with it, you can build source packages in a very high-level way
<pitti> for the purpose of this seminar, it's the build system that is used for Gnome and KDE packages (and others, of course)
<tseliot> Which patch system should I use to make a patch (editing only 2 files) for the linux-restricted-modules (e.g. so as to solve a problem on launchpad)?
<pitti> tseliot: this package does not have any patch system
<pitti> tseliot: so this falls into the 'cron' class of source packages
<pitti> ok, let's go on then
<pitti> == ed: dpatch ==
<pitti> dpatch is a pretty robust and proven patch system which also ships a script 'dpatch-edit-patch'
<pitti> packages which use this build-depend on 'dpatch', and debian/rules includes 'dpatch.mk'
<pitti> The two most important things you should be aware of:
<pitti>  * dpatch does not apply debian/patches/*, but instead applies all patches mentioned in debian/patches/00list, in the mentioned order. That means that you do not have to rely on asciibetical ordering of the patches and can easily disable patches, but you have to make sure to not forget to update 00list if you add a new patch.
<pitti> (forgetting to update 00list is a common cause of followup uploads :-) )
<pitti>  * dpatch patches are actually scripts that are executed, not just patches fed to 'patch'. That means you can also do fancy things like calling autoconf or using sed in a dpatch if you want.
<pitti> using dpatch for non-native patches is rare, and normally you do not need to worry about how a .dpatch file looks like
<pitti> but I think it's important to mention it
<pitti> so if you ever want to replace *all* instances of Debian with Ubuntu in all files, write a dpatch with a small shell script that uses sed :)
<pitti> instead of doing a 300 KB static patch which won't apply to the next version anyway
<pitti> The manpage is very good and has examples, too, so I will only give an example here:
<pitti> This will edit an already existing patch and take care that all previous patches are applied in order:
<pitti>   cd /whereever/you/unpacked/the/source/ed-0.2
<pitti>   dpatch-edit-patch 05_ed.1-warning-fix
<pitti>   <edit stuff, press Ctrl+D>
<pitti> so that's exactly like cdbs-edit-patch
<pitti> ok, now we edited a patch, that's pretty easy, right?
<pitti> ping anyone?
<richb> pong
<heikki> pong
<pitti> can you follow at this speed or shall I slow down?
<richb> It's fine here.
<heikki> yep
<pitti> great
<pitti> now let's create a new one; this is different from cdbs-e-p
<rohan> pong
<pitti> due to the 00list thingy I mentioned above
<pitti>   dpatch-edit-patch foo.dpatch 06_testsuite-Makefile.dpatch
<pitti>   <edit stuff, press Ctrl+D>
<pitti>   echo foo.dpatch >> debian/patches/00list
<pitti> ^^ NB the last command to update the patch list (you can also use a normal editor, of course)
<pitti> This will create a new patch foo.dpatch relative to the already existing 06_testsuite-Makefile.dpatch. If your patch is very confined and does not depend on other patches, you can leave out the second argument.
<pitti> alright?
<pitti> is the problem of patch dependencies clear to everyone?
<rohan> yes
<heikki> yes
<sebasgro> yes but is there a way to see these dependencies?
<pitti> sebasgro: it's hard to 'visualize them'
<pitti> sebasgro: you can look at the patches and check if they patch the same files at roughly the same position
<richb> Iif you have a mess of several dependent patches is it sometimes best to merge into one?
<richb> *If
<pitti> richb: depends
<allee> pitti: dpatch updates patch following 06_testsuite... if they are affected?
<pitti> richb: of course it does not make sense to fix a feature with a bugfix a, and the next patch reverts that and uses fix b instead
<pitti> richb: but sometimes patch 1 provides some new infrastructure, and patch 2 uses that new infrastructure to provide a new feature
<pitti> richb: and you might want to keep the patches separate because patch 1 might go upstream, but patch 2 doesn't have a chance
<pitti> allee: good point; no, it won't
<pitti> so if you edit a patch in the middle of a stack, you can theoretically break the patches further up
<pitti> ('up' in stack order, i. e. the patches further down in 00list)
<allee> pitti: is there a tool to adpated such pathces?
<pitti> allee: there can't be; if two patches conflict, then only humans can resolve this
<pitti> allee: you can do 'dpatch-edit-patch 08_conflicting_patch'
<pitti> this will put you into a subshell again with some .rej files
<allee> e.g. offset fixes and adding conflicts markers to fix by hand
<pitti> you resolve them, Ctrl+D, and it will be good again
<pitti> allee: offset fixes aren't strictly necessary, they don't break patches in general
<pitti> allee: no SVN-like conflict markers, just the patch-typical .rej files
<pitti> ok, let's move on and handle further questions afterwards
<pitti> let's go to the last patch system
<pitti> == xterm: quilt ==
<pitti> quilt is the other non-dumb standard patch system. Like dpatch, it has a list of patches to apply in patches/series (to use debian/patches, packages need to add a sylink).
<pitti> It is non-trivial to set up and has a lot of advanced commands which make it very flexible, but not very easy to use.
<pitti> nontrivial to set up for Debian source packages, that is
<pitti> (it's not hard either, but more work than simple-patchsys, and even dpatch)
<pitti> I will only show a small example here
<pitti> in the xterm source
<pitti> First, you can use the existing machinery to set up symlinks and directories for quilt:
<pitti>   cd /whereever/you/unpacked/the/source/xterm-223
<pitti>   debian/rules prepare
<pitti> the 'prepare' target is not standardized; you need to look into debian/rules; however, it usually boils down to 'export QUILT_PATCHES=debian/patches' (which should work fine everywhere)
<pitti> (since quilt looks in ./patches by default)
<pitti> but I highly recommend to *not* use ./patches for source packages
<pitti> all distro changes should be below debian/
<pitti> Now let's edit the already existing patch 901_xterm_manpage.diff:
<pitti>   quilt push 901_xterm_manpage.diff
<pitti> this will apply all patches in the stack up to the given one
<pitti> apply inline right in the source tree, that is
<pitti> now let's edit a file that is already touched by the original patch
<pitti>   sed -i 's/Copyright/Copyleft/' xterm.man
<pitti> (yay for my creative braindead changes :) )
<rohan> pitti: but quilt depends on just then initial number in the patchname for the order ? or does it use some other logic ?
<pitti> rohan: as I wrote above, quilt uses debian/patches/series, similar to dpatch's 00list
<pitti> so again you don't need to worry about asciibetical ordering
<rohan> sorry, was not paying attention :(
<pitti> however, it's common practice to still give them number prefixes
<pitti> simply because it's better to understand and sort when looking at the patches/ dir
<pitti> (and incidentally you can actually teach quilt to not use 'series', but debian/patches/*)
<pitti> let's commit the change:
<pitti>   quilt refresh 901_xterm_manpage.diff
<pitti>   quilt pop -a
<pitti> the latter will 'unwind' all the applied patches, so that you are back to a pristine source tree
<pitti> So unlike the other patch systems, quilt works with patched inline sources, but keeps track of modifications.
* pitti waits a bit for people to catch up and finish the example on their keyboards
<pitti> ok everyone?
<richb> Fine here.
<rohan> pitti: but this is the case when i edit an already existing patch. how about creating new patches in quilt ?
<heikki> ok
<pitti> rohan: my next topic :)
<rohan> ok.. i am just getting too eager it seems ;)
<pitti> Finally, let's add a new patch to the top of the stack:
<pitti>   quilt push -a
<pitti> '-a' means 'all patches', thus it applies all further patches after 901_xterm_manpage.diff up to the top
* \sh has a special question, but I think it's better asked at the end of this session :)
<pitti> \sh: queue it in -chat, plz
<pitti>   quilt new muhaha.diff
<pitti> register a new patch name (which we want to put on top of the patch stack)
<pitti>   quilt add README
<pitti> you have to do that for all files you modify, so that quilt can keep track of the original version
<pitti> this tells quilt to keep track of the original version of README
<pitti>   sed -i '1 s/^/MUHAHA/' README
<pitti> modify the source
<pitti>   quilt refresh
<pitti>   quilt pop -a
<pitti> this will finally create debian/patches/muhaha.diff with the changes to README
<pitti> as I already said above, quilt has a patch list, too
<pitti> in debian/patches/series
<pitti> which is much like debian/patches/00list for dpatch
<pitti> and if you push -a, then the patch will land on top of the patch stack, and will automatically be put at the end of series
<pitti> of course you can create the patch in other levels of the patch stack
<pitti> but usually you want the top
<pitti> sometimes, when you pull changes from upstream CVS, it's better to put them at the bottom of the stack
<pitti> i. e. upstream changes shuold generally come *before* distro-specific changes
<pitti> === A glimpse into the future ===
<pitti> As you saw, Debian source packages do not have any requirements wrt. structure, patch systems, etc., other source package systems like SRPM are much stricter wrt that. This of course means more flexibility, but also much more learning overhead.
<pitti> As a member of the security team I can tell tales of the pain of a gazillion different source package layouts... :)
<pitti> Therefore some clever people sat together the other day to propose a new design which would both give us a new and unified source package and patch system that uses bzr (with a quilt-like workflow). This would also integrate packages and patches much better into Launchpad and revision control in general.
<pitti> Please take a look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NoMoreSourcePackages if you are interested in this.
<pitti> not important here, but interesting to mention :)
<pitti> erk, we are close to the end, I'll be around for a while in -chat for any further questions
* ddaa throws a glider
<pitti> NOTES:
<pitti> THere is a iki page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/School/PatchingSources which provides most of above information in a more convenient format. However, it might be slightly out of date (it's from dapper times). Feel free to update the page and and add missing bits.
<`23meg> thanks pitti
<pitti> THanks for your attention! I hope it was a bit useful
<pitti> and happy patching!
<sebasgro> thank you very much pitti
* pitti hands ddaa the baton
<ddaa> ouch
<ddaa> jml: hey, your turn!
* jml blinks
<robotangel> perfect in-time ;)
<pitti> oh, I'd appreciate some feedback about the talk, for the future :)
<ddaa> So, jml is going to tell you about launchpad code hosting
<jml> right!
<ddaa> I'm just here to take credit, but he's the guy doing most of the work nowadays.
<robotangel> yep
<robotangel> Text Topic: "Hosting code with Launchpad and Bazaar - Jono Lange" ;)
<heikki> yea, thanks pitti, nice and useful session
<jml> except ddaa has graciously volunteered to answer all of the really tricky questions ;)
<jml> Good morning everyone!
<robotangel> well, let's be quiet now, I think somerone's here is willing to start ;)
<jml> My name is Jonathan Lange. I work at Canonical, where I hack on Launchpad's code hosting services w/ ddaa and others.
<jml> There are three ways you can get code for your project on to Launchpad.
<jml> 1. You can host your Bazaar branches on Launchpad itself.
<jml> 2. You can mirror your Bazaar branches from your own webserver to Launchpad.
<jml> 3. You can have Launchpad maintain a Bazaar branch based on your SVN / CVS repository.
<jml> So, uhh, you may have noticed something of a pattern here
<jml> (hint: Bazaar)
<`Tell> Hi...I need to dual-boot with winxp for work related stuff...can anybody advise me on how to do this?
<heikki> ask in #ubuntu
<jml> We use Bazaar for doing all of our code-hosting stuff
<jml> poolie put it really well the other day, "Bazaar is the way that launchpad thinks about code".
<jml> I don't know how much you all know about bzr.
<jml> Here's the important thing: it's a *distributed* revision control system.
<jml> That means that anyone can make a branch and start hacking with all of the super-powers that you get with using version control.
<jml> You can commit to their branch, revert their commits, run 'log' and 'blame'
<jml> all without touching the internet or talking to a central repository. everything is in your local checkout
<jml> (except don't call it a checkout)
<asosa> well so far i'm not too found of xubuntu - doesn't like the fact that i already have an ext2 filesystem on the laptop during install. It can't format, resize, cause it automounted it
<jml> More interestingly for us, using bazaar means you can publish your code in full and independently
<jml> and people can branch off _that_ and make their own branches and publish those.
<jml> This is great for Free Software, because it radically lowers the barrier to
<jml> entry.
<jml> Instead of attaching fiddly little patches to tickets on a bug tracker, you can just publish your branch.
<jml> How do you publish your branch? Well, you can just upload it to Launchpad.
<ddaa> (note: you can attach a "bundle" on a bug tracker, which is like a patch, with version control data added)
<jml> right.
<ddaa> go on, I do not mean to sidetrack
<jml> but say you want to do something cooler than attaching a bundle, something like...
<jml> == 1. You can host your Bazaar branches on Launchpad. ==
<jml> I assume everyone has a Launchpad account?
<jml> If not, you really should get one now, before all the cool names are taken.
<jml> Got an account? Good
<jml> Once that's done, you'll need to upload a public SSH key.
<jml> You can make one of these using ssh-keygen
<jml> or puttygen.exe I guess
<jml> Once you've generated a key (or if you have one already), go to your Launchpad page
<ddaa> jml is starting to get anxious that nobody is listening. Anybody listening please send him a message on #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<ddaa> that will make him feel much better
<jml> so, my Launchpad page is https://launchpad.net/~jml
<jml> There is a link in the Actions menu, on the left, labelled "Update SSH keys".
<jml> Go there and submit your public key
<jml> (not your private one!)
<jml> Once that's done, you can push up a bzr branch.
<jml> Time for some screenshots!
<jml> jml@rhino:~$ cd ~/Code/Scratch/d20-chargen/
<jml> jml@rhino:~/Code/Scratch/d20-chargen$ bzr push sftp://bazaar.launchpad.net/~jml/+junk/d20-chargen
<jml> that's sftp://bazaar.launchpad.net/~<username>/<project>/<branch_name>
<jml> That'll push d20-chargen (a branch I made for this session) up to Launchpad
<jml> '+junk' means it's not part of a registered project
<jml> it's just a branch I want to put up on Launchpad.
<jml> It'll take Launchpad about 2-3 minutes to scan the branch after it's been pushed.
<jml> This time last year, it used to take about 24 hours.
<jml> At least, I seem to remember it did. ddaa?
<jml> Anyway, we still want to make it faster though :)
<ddaa> Yes, for the initial upload
<ddaa> subsequent updates were detected faster than that
<jml>  <robotangel> QUESTION: Is it a bit similar to GIT or did I miss something (or understood something totally wrong)?
<jml> I honestly don't know very much about GIT. I think Bazaar has similarities.
<ddaa> git is similar to bzr
<ddaa> came later too
<jml> hah
<jml> Anyway, by now, the branch is available to the world: https://code.launchpad.net/~jml/+junk/d20-chargen
<jml> (although actually I prepared this one before the show)
<jml> The page provides a URL that other bzr users can use to get the branch.
<jml> "Hosted on Launchpad:  	http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~jml/+junk/d20-chargen"
<jml> so, if you wanted to right now, you could branch from that URL and start hacking on a D&D character generator
<jml> Also, check out the 'Browse code' on the left.
<jml> this is cool
<jml> the code browsing feature is a really handy way to quickly look at code that's on Launchpad.
<jml> So, if you don't want to actually use Launchpad to host your branches, you can always...
<jml> == 2. Mirror your Bazaar branches from your own webserver to Launchpad. ==
<jml> Actually I think the "web" bit is unnecessary
<jml> maybe you've got your own domain name and you want people to download branches from http://awesomeo.net/code/some-branch.
<jml> It's still a good idea to mirror branches to Launchpad.
<jml> If practically every project has a branch on Launchpad, then it becomes easy for potential contributors to start hacking on a project.
<jml> to find the code, you go to the Launchpad page, click on "Code", and find the right branch.
<jml> OR
<jml> you just type 'bzr branch lp:///<project>'.
<jml> Try it with 'subunit'.
<jml> $ bzr branch lp:///subunit
<jml> See this as the upstream equivalent of 'aptitude install <package>'.
<jml> And if that's doesn't convince you to mirror your code to Launchpad,
<jml> well, you could always think of the mirroring as free backups
<jml> So here's how you do it:
<jml> On your Launchpad page, or on any project page, click on the "Code" tab.
<jml> There'll be an action on the left called "Register branch".
<jml> Provide the URL of the branch, a unique name and some optional description.
<jml> Hit register and Launchpad should mirror the branch soon.
<jml> and while you're waiting for Launchpad to mirror the repository, you might want to take a look at...
<jml> https://code.launchpad.net/+project-cloud
<jml> Bigger means 'more branches', brighter means 'more active'.
<jml> (we are so web 2.0 it hurts)
<jml> So, maybe your project isn't lucky enough to use Bazaar
<jml> == 3. You can have Launchpad maintain a Bazaar branch based on your SVN / CVS repository. ==
<jml> The last major way of hosting code on Launchpad is to have your code imported from another repository.
<jml> We already do this for a number of major projects.
<jml> one of my favourites...
<jml> https://code.launchpad.net/~vcs-imports/python/trunk
<jml> You can even browse code from there
<jml> The cool thing about this is that it gives you a consistent way to start hacking on code.
<allee> jml: no python commits for 4 days?
<ddaa> gah, import is failing
* jml holds an "Ask me import questions" sign over ddaa's head
<ddaa> I'm the one making imports work
<jml> <kkas1> QUESTION: So would you maintain the code in SVN.  And then push updates up to Bazaar?
<jml> No. Launchpad tracks your SVN repository and imports updates from there.
<jml> Having an import for a project means that it's a no-brainer for others to get started on it.
<jml> again, they can just go 'bzr branch lp:///<project>'
<jml> Of course, eventually they'll want access to the official repo.
<jml> For various reasons, getting your project imported from a CVS or SVN repository is more complicated than simply mirroring a Bazaar branch.
<jml> https://help.launchpad.net/VcsImports has a guide on how to go about doing it.
<jml> Oh, tangent time
<jml> there's a link to that page from https://code.launchpad.net
<jml> I was talking to a friend who does a bit of packaging, and he didn't know about that page.
<jml> it's kind of cool in that it shows recent movements on the code front
<jml> tangent over
<jml> In essence, to register a project for getting imported, first make sure we can import it sanely
<jml> then use Launchpad Answers to ask a question about getting it activated.
<jml> QUESTION: is a project has a svn imported in bazaar, can i commit to the original svn thru launchpad via bazaar ? or is it only 'one way' ?
<jml> If you are using the Bazaar branch that Launchpad has made, then it's one way.
<jml> There's a neat tool called bzr-svn which lets you do two-way stuff, but Launchpad doesn't use that.
<jml> QUESTION: Do I need to be one of the official "owners" of a project to register an SVN branch on vcs-imports? Or can I register a branch for a project I want to track but whose "official" maintainers don't use bzr or know about Launchpad?
<jml> That's a really good question :)
<jml> <ddaa> rmunn: yes
<jml> ^^ that's the answer
<rmunn> Yes, you need to be an owner? Or yes, you can register a branch for any project?
<rmunn> Makes a difference... :-)
<jml> (answered in -chat)
<jml> So, that's about it from me. Some suggestions where to go from here...
<jml> <ddaa> people are welcome and encouraged to register projects on behalf of upstream
<jml> that's one suggestion :)
<jml> - poolie is running another session on Bazaar tomorrow at the same time as this session (UTC 20:00)
<allee> jml: Is there a page about bzr and pkg management?
<jml> - If you've got more questions, ask them here or join us on #launchpad or the launchpad-users mailing list
<jml> allee: there's wiki.ubuntu.com/NoMoreSourcePackages
<jml> but apart from that, I don't know.
<jml> I've been using Debian/Ubuntu for about 9 years now and still don't know anything about package management :\
<jml> which is why...
<allee> :)
<jml> - You should hang out on #launchpad anyway. We like users, and I get to learn things when you want a feature for something like package management :)
<Jack313> hm
<jml> So go and write lots of code and upload it to Launchpad. :)
<jml> That's it.
<balrok> QUESTION:can you tell me some advantages and disadvantages of bazaar compared to svn?
<jml> balrok: To quote poolie
<ryanakca> balrok: might be something in http://bazaar-vcs.org/BzrForSVNUsers
<jml> "The pros: no need for a central server, can commit and do other work while disconnected, much better merge tracking and smarter merging. The cons: mostly that it's a younger system, so somewhat less polished, less tools integration, etc. But we plan to go 1.0 in a few months, and there is some work towards gnome, eclipse and visual studio integration"
<balrok> thank you both.. this sounds very good.. i actually opened my project on lp too =)
<ryanakca> =)
<dqdev> is the  school out/
<dqdev> ?
<jml> For this session, school is out.
<dqdev> I thought there was a lecture at 21.00
<jml> there will be :)
<dqdev> in 6 mins?
<jml> yep :)
<dqdev> aha... ok jml
<habeeb> Kubuntu session.
* harrisony cries because he missed most of the OW week sessions before
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o PriceChild]  by ChanServ
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-classroom:PriceChild] : The topic for #ubuntu-classroom is: Ubuntu Open Week || SCHEDULE: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek || RULES: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules Please respect them || LOGS: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs || Ask questions and chat in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, "QUESTION: <insert question here>" || CURRENT SESSION: Kubuntu - Brandon Holtsclaw
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o PriceChild]  by ChanServ
<imbrandon> Hows everyone doing ?
<habeeb> Good!
* jml is happy
<imbrandon> ok give me one more moment to get situated here and we'll get started
<habeeb> okie
<rulus> in the meantime, habeeb can throw some popcorn around, especially in my direction, mjum!
<imbrandon> ok lets get things started , I'm not sure if it is still moderated in here ( +m ) or not , but we'll find out in a few moments, I try to keep my sessions informnal as possible, I'm going to start with
<harrisony> +m on the channel?
<harrisony> it would be nice :D
<imbrandon> just Intoducing myself , I'm Brandon Holtsclaw ( imbrandon on the wiki and LP and IRC ) and am an un-paid ( by canonical ) core developer for Ubuntu and Kubuntu
<imbrandon> I do have a "day job", and they pay me approx %20 of my time to work on Kubuntu related packages
<imbrandon> ( the rest is a little more boring hehe )
<PriceChild> (channel is -m)
<imbrandon> I got started with Ubuntu arround the Breezy cycle and have been going full blst since then.
<imbrandon> sooo as long as it dosent get too hetic in here I'll open it up to some Q & A about Kubuntu in here, if we need I'm sure PriceChild can help me filter Questions in -chat
<imbrandon> everyone been enjoying OpenWeek so far? how many do we have from last OpenWeek ?
<PriceChild> I was at the last one 8-)
<habeeb> not me :/
<Sanne> I was there
<rulus> I was there too
<luca_b> First presence here, right now
<Jack313> I am new, and these presentations are pretty cool
<habeeb> but well, this open week is awesome.
<harrisony> i was asleep before
<ufuntu> i wasn't there
<harrisony> forgot to to wake up
<dws> There was another OpenWeek?
<imbrandon> Great
<rpw> Enjoing it for the first time...
<radmen> I'm here for the first time ;-] 
<tmske> new: and it is very cool
<balrok> me too
<n2diy> First timer
<CrazyEccentric> first time for me also
<CrazyEccentric> I like it
<imbrandon> So What is Kubuntu, Kubuntu is our KDE varariant from our brethern Ubuntu based on Gnome
<imbrandon> for those of us that prefer the KDE desktop
<imbrandon> we strive to bring you the same level of User experince ( sometimes better IMHO ) than Ubuntu "proper"
<imbrandon> :)
<imbrandon> thats just my humble opinion though , i might be a tad bias ... :)
<imbrandon> 16:09 < tmske> Off-Topic QUESTION: what is your "day job" where you can work on Kubuntu?
<imbrandon> I work for a very large PCI compliant Web hosting company , that uses a few thousand Ubuntu Servers ( and also Solaris and Windows boxen )
<imbrandon> my job is to maintain those and help trubbleshoot problems
<shawarma> PCI?
<imbrandon> PCI == Payment Card Industries, like vias and mastercard complaint
<imbrandon> 16:12 < xerosis> QUESTION: what do you think kubuntu's advantages and disadvantages compared to ubuntu?
<imbrandon> ( PriceChild can you paste the qustions for me please, so i dont have to toggle the chats rooms :)
<PriceChild> ok will do
<imbrandon> xerosis, well thats kinda hard , in a tech sense there are man dis and advantages
<imbrandon> it really depends on what your used to programing for, like QT and KDE
<imbrandon> or GTK, etc, from a users perspective, it is just a matter of taste on the bundled apps
<xerosis> imbrandon: i guess i meant overall progress as a project, and for the future
<imbrandon> techinicly we strive to have the same goal , we just go a diffrent road to get there
<imbrandon> as for the future, we're looking forward to KDE4 and the great cross platform things that will bring to kubuntu
<imbrandon> this cycle we should see a release ( even if just beta ) of KDE4 that is making great strides to be a next generation Desktop experince
<imbrandon> with things like GL acceleration built in, unified sound backends etc
<imbrandon> ( e.g. beryl quality effects built right into the default desktop )
<rpw> Sometimes Kubuntu seems (not a hard fact!) to get little love than Ubuntu, for example some friends have asked me things like "I can't fiend Desktop-Effects, I thought I could enable them very easy".
<PriceChild> <Jack313> QUESTION: Have there been any thoughts on incorporating beryl with the KDE? I downloaded it and found it pretty cool and seems like it would be a nice addition, your thoughts?
<imbrandon> well there are 2 answers to that
<imbrandon> with KDE3 the current desktop there is aquamarine
<imbrandon> that strives to be a kwin replacement like emeryald is for Gnome
<imbrandon> with the comming of KDE4 the KDE developers are building that tech right into kwin , the heart of KDE
<imbrandon> so it will be an in-house tech
<PriceChild> Isn't it heliodor for gnome? emerald works in both gnome and kde
<imbrandon> PriceChild, right, my mistake , thnaks :)
<imbrandon> btw everyone give a big welcome to Riddell , the mastermind behind Kubuntu ( the Kubuntu lead developer :P )
<ypsila> gnome
<imbrandon> 16:18 < wburge_> QUESTION:   What types of apps do you typically work on when developing for kubuntu?
<imbrandon> I typicly work on Amarok bugs in my time, but I have touched many many packages over the last few cycles
<imbrandon> anything from mono to amarok to kubuntu-default-settings etc etc etc
<Riddell> hi
<PriceChild> <davmor2> Question:  do you think that the changes in kde 4 will be hard to implement and will it really make kde more usable?
<wburge> <imbrandon>Are there any aps you have worked on that started as new projects?
<PriceChild> Hey Riddell :)
<imbrandon> davmor2, everything new is a challenge, but with rockin people on the team and how closely we work with upstream implmenting KDE4 is an ongoing process that I dont think will be super difficult
<imbrandon> as for will it be more useable , yes, it is a vast improvemnt over KDE3
<imbrandon> and the way we look at things today
<imbrandon> tons of useability study has gone into this by the KDE team and many others
<imbrandon> making KDE4 one of the heftiest releases yet
<davmor2> thanks
<PriceChild> <Belutz> Question: is there any specific application that is developed by kubuntu developer for KDE?
<davmor2> kde launchpad intergration?
<imbrandon> guidance is a good example of it was developed by Kubuntu and KDE developers both and used in Kubuntu first
<imbrandon> but now its in official KDE svn
<imbrandon> and yes KDE LP intergration if you can consider that an APP
<Belutz> what about adept? is it developed by kubuntu developers?
<Riddell> no, but it was funded by canonical
<Belutz> ah ic
<imbrandon> yes adept was started by a Kubuntu developer ( and is currently maintained by other Kubuntu developers )
<imbrandon> but not 100% just "ours"
<imbrandon> others like fedora and such can and do use it
<PriceChild> <luca_b> QUESTION: (and an *evil* one at that) What was the rationale behind implementing System Settings?
<Riddell> kcontrol sucked
<Riddell> but system settings was implemened by a KDE developer, we just happened to like it
<imbrandon> luca_b, honestly , it was after much useability testing from what I rember correctly, but Riddell can tell you much more specifics as to exactly "why" , other than KControl is hard to use for a new user
<imbrandon> :)
<luca_b> I rarely use both, so it was just a matter of knowing
<PriceChild> <tmske> QUESTION: do you think that gnome and kde could share more code, is there improvement? or is it not necessary/usefull for ubuntu/kubuntu?
<imbrandon> colaboration is always usefull, and on backend things we do share alot of code *sorta* thats a loaded statement, by backend i mean like HAL and DBUS and the "core" , as for the UI and the KDE libs they are very diffrent beastes so code sharing is hard, but collaboration is a must
<Riddell> KDE 4 is now the biggest user of DBUS by a long way
<Riddell> it has also adopted the mime type specification recently
<imbrandon> and icon naming
<imbrandon> with oxygen
<Riddell> I've spent time getting it to adopt the icon name spec which I hope will feed back to gnome and others
<Riddell> but there are limits there with people's time
<Riddell> sharing documentation would be great and KDE has written the specification with agreement from gnome, but the gnome docs guy hasn't had time to implement it
<imbrandon> *hint* Kubuntu can always use good people helping out with your favorite OS :)
<allee> KDE3 already implements the freedesktop trash spec (draft).  Hopefully gnome does so too in the future.
<PriceChild> <Jack313> QUESTION: I have noticed the schedule for the next release of kubuntu is days before KDE4 release, will the kubuntu release date get pushed up so we can get the KDE 4 incorporated?
<imbrandon> yea alot of the collaboration goes through the freedesktop project
<imbrandon> thats a hard one, so far Ubuntu and Kubuntu have alwasy kept the same release cycle, and afaik there are no plans to change that
<imbrandon> but that dosent mean we wont work with upsteam KDE to get KDE4 in time for rlease if that is possible
<rpw> QEUSTION: Speaking of KDE 4, do you know when we will see KDE 4 as default in Kubuntu, or will there be an easy way to install and use it as default on our desktops?
<Riddell> it also means we can do a KDE 4 CD shortly after the normal kubuntu release in line with KDE's schedule
<imbrandon> rpw, there will be an easy way to install it , just as there is now in feisty ( is a developers preview ) but as for Default, thats something to be worked out at UDS this and next cycle
<PriceChild> <allee> QUESTION: when there's a new spec that needs a GUI, is more than 'ping Riddell' to make sure KDE supports the spec feature too?
<imbrandon> allee, hehe, well yes and no, in the past there hasent been much more than "ping Riddell" but we have more and more upstream developers and useability poeple from KDE working with us daily like seele and elen
<imbrandon> to poke and get input on new GUI apps , like the Wine config and upcomming grub config modult for guidance etc
<imbrandon> modules*
<Riddell> when ubuntu developers do apps they usually do it for gnome first because that's their desktop
<Riddell> but in almost all cases such apps are well thought out to be easy to port to other desktops
<Riddell> and we always get a lot of help when doing the port (colin spends a notable amount of time help with the ubiquity kde frontend, mvo did fantastic stuff helping with dist upgrade tool)
<Riddell> we didn't get migration assistant for kubuntu in feisty but it wasn't for will of wanting to, evan plans to do it for gusty
<imbrandon> i will love that one , personaly :)
<allee> Riddell: thx. great
<PriceChild> <Sanne> QUESTION: with dolphin as the new (easier) default file manager in upcoming kde releases I read about, will the file manager part of konqueror still continue to be supported? What will Kubuntu's policy be concerning that?
* ajmitch made sure to keep the pygtk bits separate from the core for his code :)
<imbrandon> Sanne, we will typicly support what KDE upstream supports, and thats looking to be dolphin, we've been known to stray from the path then get upstream acceptance like with system settings
<PriceChild> imbrandon, Riddell i've got to run now sorry.
<imbrandon> but all in all dolphin will probably be our first choice, that dosent mean konqueror will be removed or striped down
<Riddell> I also need to bed
<imbrandon> PriceChild, thanks
<Riddell> but let me point out a couple of things before I do
* imbrandon gives Riddell the whole floor
<Riddell> firstly, Kubuntu has seen some major adoptions
<Riddell> the French Parliament uses us for all their MPs, so we now rule France (whoever becomes president)
<Riddell> meduxa has put Kubuntu on tens of thousands of computers in canary islands schools
<Riddell> we have an impressive list of kubuntu derived distros at https://wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuDerivedDistros
<imbrandon> even router cd's :)
<Riddell> seeing companies like dlink using kubuntu derived CDs as their official development environement is so cool
<Riddell> secondly.. and you're hearing this first folks
<Riddell> Kubuntu is again Gold Sponsor of KDE's Akademy conference http://akademy2007.kde.org/
<Riddell> thanks to Canonical
<pointwood> w000t!!!
<imbrandon> rockin :)
<Riddell> and remember, Canonical provide top notch commercial support for Kubuntu for anyone who cares to pay for it
<Riddell> (and people do)
<Riddell> thanks all, guid nicht
<imbrandon> cool, thanks Riddell , and sleep well
<pointwood> good night
<imbrandon> ok ...
<imbrandon> 16:43 < n2diy> QUESTION What are the dangers with using KDE apps. in Gnome?
<pointwood> thx for creating a rocking distro
<imbrandon> none, other than using a bit more memory because you have to load the KDELibs along with the gnome libs
<allee> imbrandon: should I feed questions from -chat
<imbrandon> but apps are fairly desktop independant
<imbrandon> allee, sure
<allee> luca_b> QUESTION: Is adept's UI planned to be improved for 7.10? (as the original spec for Edgy never got implemented)
<imbrandon> yes very much so, manchicken and others have been working on doing just that for Gutsy ( 7.10 _
<imbrandon> )
<allee> <davmor2> QUESTION:  (devils advocate)  I am on the iso testing team but there were few kubuntu testers so I volunteered as I had time.  So I played around with kde for a bit.  Why can't gnome and kdes apps have similar tab names?  Armarok and rhythmbox as examples.
<imbrandon> davmor2, good question, but normaly somethign that handeled upstream and KDE useability and Gnome useability tend not to agree at times and on nameing conventions , that dosent mean this wont changed for KDE4 and Gnome++
<allee> <xerosis> QUESTION: how hard is it to port a UI from ubuntu to kubuntu?
<imbrandon> xerosis, it all depends on how much the UI is seperated from the programs logic, and how much the originaly author thought about portability, it can range from a few minutes litterly to a few months
<imbrandon> normaly more on the shorter side in Ubuntu and Kubuntu's case
<allee> <tmske> QUESTION: what parts of kubuntu are you very proud of?
<imbrandon> i persoanly am proud of how it "just works" for the most part with audio and video playback and asking you to install codecs
<imbrandon> but there
<imbrandon> are many many things i would love to see smoothed out too over time
<allee> <pointwood> QUESTION: Have you made any thoughts about what to add to Kubuntu Gutsy or is that too early to ask?
<imbrandon> pointwood, yes thats what the specs ( blueprints ) on LP are for , and they get discussed by you and me and everyone else at UDS in spain here in a few days
<imbrandon> thats what the UDS meeting are all about
<imbrandon> planning the next release
<allee> <mon> QUESTION: i've applied an old user-submitted patch of "an app" to the svn version of this app. how can i get it included upstream/in ubuntu? i've added it to the relevant bugzilla page but now the bug is "dead"
<jmoore> hey
<jmoore> quick question for ya
<imbrandon> those cases hopefully dont happen too often but if it does happen that way, you can generaly ask arround in #ubuntu-motu to have someone help you patch the package in kubuntu or attach the patch to a LP bug and we can take on a local delta
<imbrandon> jmoore, shoot
<jmoore> is the Screencasting Team session happening?
<imbrandon> jmoore, no this is Kubuntu session, screencasting was this morning afaik
<popey> that was earlier jmoore
<jmoore> what time zone is this?
<popey> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/openweekfeisty/screencast
<harrisony> jmoore:  i missed it too set alarm for 12:45pm not am
<harrisony> UTC
<imbrandon> the times are listed in UTC
<popey> dont worry, it is repeated on saturday :)
<jmoore> dam lol
<jmoore> k
<jmoore> col
<popey> or just read that log ^^^
<poningru> uh...
<popey> and email me any questions you have
<jmoore> yeah lol got it
* popey shuts up
<popey> sorry imbrandon
* harrisony realises popey is the screencast dude
* harrisony waves
<imbrandon> ok well since this is the last session of the day , i can stick arrround a few more minutes and just open up the floor if you all want to blurt out some last questions, i'll do my best to get to them
<jmoore> so you all use kubuntu?
<imbrandon> ( in here not -chat )
#ubuntu-classroom 2007-04-25
<jmoore> so what happens for this session?
<harrisony> QUESTION:will you be my friend
<imbrandon> harrisony, lol
<harrisony> jmoore: its the end of Kubuntu session
<jmoore> how does this work?
<imbrandon> jmoore, well it is the end actualy and it was a Q&A about kubuntnu
<poningru> zomg squeee imbrandon will you sign my...
<jmoore> oh
<poningru> gpg key?
<harrisony> imbrandon: i dont have friends and i need some!
<pointwood> jmoore: general chat in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<imbrandon> poningru, if we meet yes :)
<jmoore> ok well i have a question
<harrisony> !gpg
<ubotu> gpg is the GNU Privacy Guard.  See https://help.ubuntu.com/community/GnuPrivacyGuardHowto and class #8 on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ClassroomTranscripts
<jmoore> will gnome and kde ever merge lo
<imbrandon> nope :)
<jmoore> *lol
<harrisony> jmoore: never
<jmoore> why not, it would be a good idea
<pointwood> no
<zorglu_> will they go on duplicate the same work over and over ?
<harrisony> if they do ill get an operation to be a donkey!
<imbrandon> thanks everyone for comming, and enjoy UbuntuOpenWeek ( and thanks allee PriceChild and Riddell for the help )
<allee> jmoore: everything happening on freedesktop.org is about merging gnome and kde.  It already happens ;)
<habeeb> Thanks, imbrandon .
<habeeb> Great session.
<luca_b> Thanks, nice session
<harrisony> imbrandon: so do i have an extra friend to play with now?
<habeeb> Should I close the log, now?
<jmoore> thanks gusy
<tmske> thanks nice session, and kubuntu rocks!!!
<imbrandon> habeeb, sure
<habeeb> imbrandon: okie dokie.
<deniz_ogut> imbrandon: Thanks a lot for the session.
<pointwood> thanks imbrandon and thanks for creating Kubuntu, it rocks on my thinkpad :)
<davmor2> thanks imbrandon
<Sanne> imbrandon, thanks for the session
<imbrandon> pointwood, i dident create it, but i'm happy you liek it :)
<popey> :)
<pointwood> imbrandon: I know, wrong term :)  but you are part of the team :)
<habeeb> ausimage: I have the whole log, would you like me to copy-paste it?
<jmoore> ok see yall next session
<jmoore> can anyone translate utc to pacific time for me lol
<pointwood> jmoore: what time is it there now?
<jmoore> 3pm
<pointwood> it is 22:00 UTC
<jmoore> k thanks
<deniz_ogut> now its 22:08 UTC. You calculate the rest.
<festival_gaim> @schedule
<ubotu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: Current meeting: Technical Board | 25 Apr 20:00: Edubuntu | 26 Apr 20:00: MOTU | 26 Apr 21:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 01 May 15:00: Kernel Team | 01 May 18:00: Mozilla Team
<Sanne> jmoore: this may also help: http://whattimeisit.com/
<aos101> PDT=UTC+7 I think
<festival_gaim> @schedule frisco
<aos101> sorry, -7
<jmoore> thanks sanne
<Sanne> jmoore: yw :)
<jmoore> thanks aos
<deniz_ogut> applauses for the second day!
<balrok> i the sessions today were very good and interesting (yesterday i missed them :(
<habeeb> PriceChild: i won't do the log. even tho I have it ready it seems like Ausimage is working on it.
<PriceChild> Ah coolios, thanks ausimage
<habeeb> PriceChild: the problem is that ausimage is not responding here..
<habeeb> but well, on the wiki, the log is half-way done.
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o PriceChild]  by ChanServ
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-classroom:PriceChild] : The Ubuntu Open Week continues at 15:00 UTC || SCHEDULE: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek || RULES: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules Please respect them || LOGS: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs || Ask questions and chat in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, "QUESTION: <insert question here>"
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o PriceChild]  by ChanServ
<jmoore> ive got another question for you guys
<jmoore> i want to become an official ubuntu member
<jmoore> how can i earn that membership?
<jmoore> i read that i must participate and i want to participate but im not sure how i could help
<PriceChild> !member
<jmoore> yes
<PriceChild> !participate
<ubotu> Want to become an Ubuntu member? Look at http://www.ubuntu.com/community/processes/newmember
<ubotu> To contribute and help out with Ubuntu, see http://www.ubuntu.com/community/participate
<jmoore> ok, i want to eventualy get my ubuntu card
<PriceChild> ubuntu card?
<jmoore> ubuntu id card
<PriceChild> What's that? :s
<jmoore> ummm...hold on, let me find a link
<archangelpetro> oh god
<archangelpetro> i want one
<PriceChild> archangelpetro, I'm a member and I don't have one...
<jmoore> http://ploum.frimouvy.org/?102-official-ubuntu-id-cards-announced
<jmoore> well thats one link of a picture anyway
<danohuiginn> jmoore: notice the date ;)
<jmoore> 06
<PriceChild> jmoore, haha
<PriceChild> jmoore, look closer :)
<jmoore> so lol
<PriceChild> Sorry :)
<archangelpetro> "Ubuntu is still (by mistake I hope) on the Worldwide Terrorist Organization list. Thanks to the RFID chip, you would be caught really quickly and immediately jailed in Guantanamo."
<archangelpetro> lol
<PriceChild> "Par Ploum, samedi 1 avril 2006  17:40"
<rulus> lol, that's a Belgian identity card, I have exactly one like that
<archangelpetro> april fools :D
<jmoore> oh i know
<jmoore> oh lol
<jmoore> dam
<jmoore> that would have been cool
<archangelpetro> i know jmoore dont worry, my hopes were up too
<jmoore> are you guys developers?
<archangelpetro> not for ubuntu
* PriceChild hugs jmoore 
<archangelpetro> atm :0
<harrisony> jmoore: no
<PriceChild> jmoore, You do get to carry ubuntu business cards as a member... but not id cards.
<nixternal> business cards?
<nixternal> where are mine?
<jmoore> hmm
<jmoore> how does one get a ubuntu business card?
<harrisony> !member
<ubotu> Want to become an Ubuntu member? Look at http://www.ubuntu.com/community/processes/newmember
<habeeb> get a phonecard and print the ubuntu logo with your printer. then use glue and glue the logo onto the phonecard.
<popey> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BusinessCards
<imtheface> http://skyisgrey.org/blog/ubuntu-business-card.html
<imtheface> :D
<PriceChild> ah thanks popey :)
<archangelpetro> once again..
<archangelpetro> i want one.
<PriceChild> archangelpetro, In my opinion that isn't the correct attitude.
<archangelpetro> lol
<archangelpetro> it isnt?
<PriceChild> You shouldn't want to be a member so that you can carry cards, or have a freenode project cloak.
<archangelpetro> desire is the single driving trait of humanity.
<jmoore> do they send you a digital make of the card?
<harrisony> jmoore: you make em yourself i think
<jmoore> oh
<PriceChild> You should not want to be a member... its just something someone tells you that you should go for because you're already contributing enough for.
<archangelpetro> PriceChild, to be honest.. i wanna become a better coder :)
<PriceChild> archangelpetro, well then start coding :)
<archangelpetro> oh, i do :)
<jmoore> so, is there a washington representative for the loco team?
<harrisony> !python
<ubotu> Sorry, I don't know anything about python - try searching on http://bots.ubuntulinux.nl/factoids.cgi
<harrisony> !loco | jmoore
<ubotu> jmoore: Information on Ubuntu Local Community Teams is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoTeams
<jmoore> yeah i looked there and i couldnt find one for my state
<jmoore> washington state
<Jack313> hey
<Jack313> i live in wa
<pochu> jmoore: then start it! :)
<archangelpetro> bbr guys :)
<jmoore> k
<habeeb> jmoore: how long have you been using Linux/ubuntu?
<Jack313> jmoore, where do you live
<jmoore> for 3 years
<habeeb> Aw man my eyes...
<habeeb> Hmm
<jmoore> ive been through a linux class
<jmoore> but i learned mostly in fedora
<habeeb> i see
<jmoore> but there are alot of similarity's
<Jack313> jmoore: what part of WA you in? Im in tri-cities in the southeast corner
<jmoore> im in olympia
<Jack313> ah cool
<Jack313> hmm theres one for pacific northwest
<Jack313> #ubuntu-pnw
<jono> looks like ubuntu open week is kicking ass :)
<jono> which is what we like :)
* PriceChild highfives jono 
<jono> PriceChild: :)
<PriceChild> lol listenned to the latest lug radio last night... loved it when you all just kept pausing for a second or two... wondering which gnu the other was referring to.
<jono> PriceChild: hehe :)
<habeeb> So.. goodnight gentlemen. it was a great day today!
<jmoore> goodie night
* popey goes to get some shut-eye
<pochu> Nice day today :)
<pochu> night'all!
<andel7> ?
<ubuntu> popey burning isos they can use nerolinux
<ubuntu> i use it and it work
<ubuntu> nerolinux for burning isos.
<tonyyarusso> nonfree
<ubuntu> only the problem is,maybe it can't make data cd ot data dvd
<ubuntu> tonka
<ubuntu> what are you doing you uk man.
<ubuntu> non free,but it work.
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o imbrandon]  by ChanServ
<Terramel> QUESTION: Who  loves me?
<Terramel> O.o
<Gabz> noone
<Terramel> Gabz loves me ;)
<Witchery> Jordon are you in here now
* jrib pokes Jordan_U 
<Jordan_U> Yup :)
<Witchery> ok
<Witchery> here is what it is telling me
<Jordan_U> Witchery, Are you sure that you typed the command in correctly, you can cut and paste it
<Witchery> command not found
<Jordan_U> sudo /usr/share/doc/libdvdread3/examples/install-css.sh
<Witchery> hold
<Witchery> im typig:  sudo /usr/share/doc/libdvdread3/examples/install-css.sh
<Witchery> and its telling me
<Witchery> sudo: /usr/share/doc/libdvdread3/examples/install-css.sh: command not found
<jrib> no "examples/"
<Witchery> must be great coffee :)
<Jordan_U> jrib, So help.ubuntu.com is wrong?
<Witchery> you told me to put that in there
<Jordan_U> Witchery, I guess I was wrong :) try without the /examples
<Witchery> ok
<jrib> Jordan_U: that used to be correct, but I can verify that it is without "examples/" on feisty.  It is probably easier to just use medibunut repos though
<Jordan_U> sudo /usr/share/doc/libdvdread3/install-css.sh
<Witchery> its calculating now brb
<Jordan_U> jrib, Should I file a bug report on help.ubuntu.com in launchpad or is there a way to edit https://help.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/desktopguide/C/video.html ?
<jrib> Jordan_U: doesn't look like 7.04 docs are up yet
<Witchery> digitabulummagae@digitabulummagae:~$  sudo /usr/share/doc/libdvdread3/install-css.sh
<Witchery> --23:01:06--  http://www.dtek.chalmers.se/groups/dvd/deb/libdvdcss2_1.2.5-1_i386.deb
<Witchery>            => `/tmp/libdvdcss.deb'
<Witchery> Resolving www.dtek.chalmers.se... 129.16.30.198
<Witchery> Connecting to www.dtek.chalmers.se|129.16.30.198|:80... connected.
<Witchery> HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 200 OK
<Witchery> Length: 25,178 (25K) [text/plain] 
<Witchery> 100%[====================================>]  25,178        44.00K/s
<Witchery> 23:01:08 (43.92 KB/s) - `/tmp/libdvdcss.deb' saved [25178/25178] 
<Witchery> Selecting previously deselected package libdvdcss2.
<Witchery> (Reading database ... 144450 files and directories currently installed.)
<Witchery> Unpacking libdvdcss2 (from /tmp/libdvdcss.deb) ...
<Witchery> Setting up libdvdcss2 (1.2.5-1) ...
<Jordan_U> jrib, I thought Witchery was running Dapper
<jrib> Jordan_U: maybe ask #ubuntu-doc
<Witchery> what is Diaper
<Witchery> lol
<Jordan_U> !paste | Witchery
<jrib> Jordan_U: oh, in that case definitely ask them :)
<ubotu> Witchery: pastebin is a service to post large texts so you don't flood the channel. The Ubuntu pastebin is at http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org (make sure you give us the URL for your paste - see also the #ubuntu channel topic)
<Witchery> i was pasting it
<jrib> heh, "diaper"
<Witchery> lol
<jrib> Witchery: right, but you should use http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org so you don't flood the channel
<Witchery> dont know how im a newbee
<jrib> Witchery: it's pretty straightfoward, just visit the site
<Witchery> i dont know quite about lyn-x yet
<Witchery>  ok i can do that too but i need to play my dvd or im going the easy way to windows
<Jordan_U> Witchery, That looks fine, you should be able to play DVD's in VLC now
<Jordan_U> Witchery, You might want to set it up so that DVD's open in VLC when you insert them rather than Totem though ( as totem will just give you an error )
<Jordan_U> Witchery, To do that go to System -> Preferences -> Removable Drives and Media
<jrib> Witchery: well you can use firefox to visit the site right?
<Witchery> yep
<Witchery> what happened to jordon_u
<jrib> Jordan_U is still here
<Jordan_U> Witchery, Just go to VLC and Open -> Disk
<Witchery> ok there
<Witchery> so why did you tell me to go to that address what will that do for me
<Jordan_U> Witchery, That is just for future reference
<Witchery>  but i was just telling you what it said, if i put it on that page what do i do with it then?
<Witchery> you got to remember im lame when it comes to commands and using lyn-x
<Jordan_U> Witchery, Would you like to set it so VLC plays DVD's automatically when you insert them?
<Witchery> yes please
<Jordan_U> Witchery, When you are in a channel that is crouded like #ubuntu ( in the future ) it is impolite to paste large amounts of text because there are so many people talking, so just know in the future to use pastebin instead
<Jordan_U> Witchery, go to System -> Preferences -> Removable Drives and Media  ...
<Witchery> ok hold
<Jordan_U> Then when that is open go to the media tab at the top ...
<Jordan_U> Sorry "multimedia"
<Witchery> done it
<Witchery> now my dvd drive will not open, this computer is making me mad
<Jordan_U> Witchery, Now change the command for playing DVD;s from "totem %M" ( or whatever it is ) to "vlc dvd://"
<Witchery> hold please
<Witchery> ok did that
<Witchery> is there anything else?
<Jordan_U> Ok, now it should open VLC automatically when you insert a DVD
<Jordan_U> nope :)
<Witchery> ill try
<Witchery> im having trouble opening the dvd drive something else is wrong
<Jordan_U> Witchery, You may need to close VLC first because you can't eject a DVD while a program is reading from it
<Witchery> i have to turn off the computer so ill be back if you will still be there
<Jordan_U> I will
<Witchery> ok, thanks for your help
<Witchery> be back in a minute
<SwinK> ooohh.. nikmatnya notebook ku nyetrum2 kecil.. berasa pake vibrator
<SwinK> oooooooooohhh
* SwinK brb menghirup udara segar di luar
* SwinK brb
<Terramel> QUESTION: Ubuntu's liveCD is Knoppix based or is made from scratch?
<LoCusF> from scratch I think :)
<LoCusF> since Knoppix is based on totally differend livecd philosophy
<Terramel> ;)
<Terramel> what's knoppix philosophy?
<LoCusF> hmm ok philosophy is a bad describer for this :)
<LoCusF> architecture is better
<Terramel> ;D
<Terramel> ehehhehehe
<Terramel> can you explain the differences?
<Terramel> ;D
<LoCusF> hmm no, I think not :)
<Terramel> :)
<Terramel> thanx anyway ;D
<LoCusF> np
<leandro944> hi, i need help to ubuntu
<zeroone_> I missed it...
<zeroone_> Darn
<tonyyarusso> many sessions are repeated later in the week (but not all)
<zeroone_> I see there are also logs. :D Thank you tonyyarusso.
<tonyyarusso> yuppers, logs ftw eh?
<popey> moin everyone \o/
<harrisony> afternoon popey
* popey prepares for another session
<harrisony> another session wooo! i missed it before
<popey> this is a different subjec
<popey> t
<harrisony> oh
<harrisony> what is this one on?
<popey> the launchpad support system
<popey> http://answers.launchpad.net/
* Jack3132 slaps launchpad witha  trout
* harrisony hugs launchpad
<HM_cet> hello
<HM_cet> need help with feisty
<HM_cet> where do i have to ask for help ?
<Telep> HM_cet: try #ubuntu
<Telep> or the forums :)
<HM_cet> ok
<HM_cet> thx
<Telep> np
* netjoined: irc.freenode.net -> brown.freenode.net
* netjoined: irc.freenode.net -> brown.freenode.net
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<delmorep> is a session about to start?!
<harrisony> delmorep: no not for a few hours
<harrisony> why?
<delmorep> :)
<tonytiger> UTC baby.
<delmorep> i was just being weird
* netjoined: irc.freenode.net -> brown.freenode.net
<harrisony> lol if i was mean enough i would do my n00b impersonation!
<delmorep> do it!
<harrisony> delmorep: it invovles me annoying everyone in the room which means i will only do it in non ubuntu channels unless there is a n00b impersonation channel
<delmorep> yah dont get banned from this room!
<harrisony> ill do it in #harrisony
* netjoined: irc.freenode.net -> brown.freenode.net
<wubuntu-balrok> JOIN ubuntu-classroom-chat
* netjoined: irc.freenode.net -> brown.freenode.net
<Jack3132> ello
* netjoined: irc.freenode.net -> brown.freenode.net
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* netjoined: irc.freenode.net -> brown.freenode.net
* netjoined: irc.freenode.net -> brown.freenode.net
<jono> can someone give me ops please?
<jono> elkbuntu: can you?
<harrisony> its jono
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o elkbuntu]  by ChanServ
<jono> hey harrisony :)
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o jono]  by ChanServ
<jono> thanks elkbuntu
<giangy> 'morning
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-classroom:jono] : The Ubuntu Open Week continues at 15:00 UTC || SCHEDULE: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek - SCHEDULE CHANGES, PLEASE SEE THE TIMETABLE
<jono> bugger
<jono> how can I revert the timetable?
<jono> ahhh its ok
<harrisony> CHANGES?
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-classroom:jono] : The Ubuntu Open Week continues at 15:00 UTC || SCHEDULE: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek - SCHEDULE CHANGES, PLEASE SEE THE TIMETABLE || RULES: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules Please respect them || LOGS: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs || Ask questions and chat in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, "QUESTION: <insert question here>
<jono> :)
* harrisony hopes it dosent affect /me too much
<jono> harrisony: yeah a few rescheduling bits
<jono> check the timetable
<harrisony> what changed
<harrisony> ok
<jono> see http://www.jonobacon.org/?p=956
<harrisony> @now
<ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: April 25 2007, 11:22:59 - Next meeting: Edubuntu in 8 hours 37 minutes
<harrisony> who was the organiser of UOW
* harrisony dosent think the changes will affect too much for harrisony 
<jono> harrisony: me
<harrisony> jono: Oh 1)Nice idea 2)Good excuse for waking up at 1am 3) someone was in #ubuntu-bugs and they were a beginner bug person and was unaware at the same time here BjornT was speaking about the same topic (in short more publicity and promotion) and 4 (i think it was)) Thanks again!
<jono> harrisony: thanks for all your support :) nice to know the week is going well :)
<jono> right, lunch for I
<jono> back soon
<harrisony> let me rephrase 3)  someone was in #ubuntu-bugs and they were a beginner bug person they were unaware that at the same time  BjornT was speaking about getting involved in bugs and all  (in short more publicity and promotion)
<harrisony> ok the alarm is set at 12:45am see you then
<KennethP> @now
<ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: April 25 2007, 12:39:53 - Next meeting: Edubuntu in 7 hours 20 minutes
* pochu waves!
<eolo999> !ciao
<ubotu> Sorry, I don't know anything about ciao - try searching on http://bots.ubuntulinux.nl/factoids.cgi
<LongPointyStick> jono: ducks?
<visualdeception> lol
<DShepherd> time
<DShepherd>  /help
<jrib>  /help DShepherd
<DShepherd> jrib: srry.. it was a mistake..
<jrib> DShepherd: you may be interested in the usercount.pl irssi script
<DShepherd> jrib: you spying on me? :-) i maybe... i can get it from the site?
<jrib> yep irssi.org/scripts
<DShepherd> jrib: thanks.. heading there now..
<mogydy> QUESTION: how can i get feisty to detect my Fn keys on a Sony Vaio laptop?
<Hobbsee> !support
<ubotu> support is The official ubuntu support channel is #ubuntu. Also see http://ubuntu.com/support and http://ubuntuforums.org
<l3on_> hi ! :)
<Hobbsee> hiya
<sinkaiya> <l3on_>Hi. =)
<jono> 30mins till the community Q+A folks :)
<Hobbsee> jono: yay!
<jono> :)
<jono> get your questions prepared peple :)
<jono> people
<ShankarGanesh> what's todays topic?
<tonytiger> ShankarGanesh: See the wiki for the schedule.
<tonytiger> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
<ShankarGanesh> k
<tonytiger> 7 topics today :)
<tonytiger> jono is first up
* Hobbsee thinks of difficult community questiosn for jono to answer
<PriceChild> pfft difficult's nothing... try harder
<jono> Hobbsee: :)
<Hobbsee> jono: QUESTION: Are you going to spend all of UDS evenings drinking, instead of sleeping at all, like LCA?
<jono> Hobbsee: you will have to ask that when the session begins :)
<Hobbsee> jono: i hope not to be on irc by then
<Hobbsee> but i will be, and doing my assignment
<jono> :)
<elkbuntu> ooh, i know the answer to that one!
<Hobbsee> shoot
<elkbuntu> ers
<elkbuntu> the answer is beer.
<Hobbsee> heh
<poningru> elkbuntu++
* poningru waves to jenda 
<ogra> Hobbsee, didnt claires mail tell you its mandatory for sponsorship to party all night with jono ?
<Hobbsee> ogra: dont think so, no...
<ogra> we have this policy, you know :)
<Hobbsee> ogra: haha
* Hobbsee isnt good with mornings, when she hasnt had >6 hours of sleep
<ogra> sleep is overrated
<Hobbsee> so if you're going to enforce that rule, ensure that you have someone wake me up to coherancy
<Hobbsee> i know...
<jhutchins> Good grief, tonytiger AND popey.
<ogra> why else did god give us coffee and cigarettes
<jono> ogra: woo! :)
<jhutchins> Has hants gone entirely over to ubuntu?
<Hobbsee> ogra: and chocolate.
<elkbuntu> gah, planet updated too quick.. my post doesnt have digging orders in it :(
* Hobbsee does neither the cigs or chocolate
<Hobbsee> elkbuntu: heh
<ogra> yeah, indeed, how could i miss chocolate
<Hobbsee> BAD OGRA!
<ogra> heh
<Hobbsee> er, s/cigs or chocolate/cigs or coffee/
<ranf> hi
<habeeb> digg is so f..reaking bloated in my firefox >:
<habeeb> i hate firefox in linux
<jhutchins> habeeb: It's no better in windows.
<habeeb> jhutchins: no seriously. _My_ firefox sucks.
<habeeb> And in Windows its much much better.
<jhutchins> habeeb: Well of course it does.
<jono> five minutes until the Q+A begins - get your questions ready :)
<habeeb> jhutchins: I can't even scroll a freaking myspace page..
<habeeb> When I scroll I get 4-5 seconds wait time for it to de-freeze.
<jhutchins> habeeb: Try a different browser, see if it works better.
<habeeb> _without_ auto/smooth scrolling
<habeeb> jhutchins: with Konqueror it does work better.
<habeeb> but Konqueror doesn't have the sweet extensions!
<jhutchins> habeeb: So don't use firefox.  Problem solved.
<richb> habeeb: Did you try strace to see what it is doing?
<habeeb> richb: what's that, little sir?
<mc44> habeeb: you need to ask jono why he hasnt made firefox better yet
<jono> mc44: yah, cause I am reponsible for everything ubuntu related....riiiiiiight :P
<richb> habeeb: Little? *laughs* It shows the system calls that a process makes.
<mc44> jono: no, just all the things that are broken
<habeeb> aw, like *top*?
<richb> habeeb: Not really, no.
<jono> mc44: well, its a community - why not get involved?
<habeeb> richb: I see.
<habeeb> I'll try it.
<Hobbsee> jono: exactly.  get to it.
<richb> habeeb: Things like read/write/mmap
<mc44> jono: I mock you. Is that not involvement enough? :)
<jono> mc44: nope :)
<mc44> jono: I mock Hobbsee too, if thats any help
<jono> mc44: would much prefer you fix bugs :)
<richb> habeeb: It will probably generate a lot of output though, so you might want to redirect it to a file.
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o Hobbsee]  by ChanServ
<habeeb> richb: I see, thanks.
* mc44 was kicked off #ubuntu-classroom by Hobbsee (DOOM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o Hobbsee]  by ChanServ
<habeeb> :X
<habeeb> Also, Firefox, has to load GTK stuff to run in my purely KDE desktop.
<richb> habeeb: Opera uses QT IIRC.
<habeeb> richb: opera.. hmm..
<richb> We are offtopic anyway, the ralks starts soon:-)
<Talcite> what kind of skills do you guys need to be on a developer team?
<habeeb> richb: but Opera won't give me Adblock >:
<habeeb> Anyway, let's shhush
<Talcite> ahh ok, i'll ask later
<habeeb> Talcite: try #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<Talcite> habeeb: thanks
* habeeb gets some pop-corns and sits comfortably.
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+m]  by elkbuntu
<jono> righteo folks, lets get this going \m/
<jono> the aim of this session is to simply provide an hour of Q+A - you are welcome to ask my what you like - and I will try to help
<jono> naturally I cannot answer all things, so I may refer to others
<jono> the way it works is simple:
<jono> join #ubuntu-classroom-chat and post your question in there including my nick and the word QUESTION
<jono> the questions will then be posted in here by elkbuntu and I will answer them
<jono> I want to start things off with a question from Hobbsee
<jono> jono: QUESTION: Are you going to spend all of UDS evenings drinking, instead of sleeping at all, like LCA?
<jono> yes, yes I will
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o Hobbsee]  by ChanServ
<Hobbsee> hehe :)
<jono> :)
<jono> ok elkbuntu, lets go :)
<elkbuntu> another from hobbsee QUESTION: how many beers are you owed, on estimate, for UDS? And how many do you owe?
<Hobbsee> QUESTION:how old do you have to be to bea member
<Hobbsee> Answer:  no age limit
<jono> Hobbsee: I have no idea, I would like to think I am owed enough beer for the entire UDS, but I also know I no doubt owe others beer which might cance some of it out
<Hobbsee> haha
<jono> anyone can be a member of the Ubuntu project :)
<jono> we encourage everyone to get involves, whatever the age
<elkbuntu> <Belutz> QUESTION: is the loco leader must be an ubuntu member? or can he/she can just an ubuntero?
<jono> elkbuntu: the loco leader does not need to be an ubuntu member no, the main thing a loco leader needs to be is determined and keen to grow a team :)
<elkbuntu> <gumpa> QUESTION where is the best place to learn about making a custom livecd?
<jono> gumpa: good question, I am not entirely sure - I have never rolled a livecd before - but I would suggest you should ask in #ubuntu-devel to see who has worked on it
<jono> it seems rolling live cds is a pretty straightforward process
<jono> a number of derivatives have appeared due to this process being pretty simple
<jono> cred to knoppix too for making it pretty simple :)
<elkbuntu> <PriceChild> QUESTION: Do you have any ideas on what can be done to further help the integration of the forums with the main ubuntu community?
<jono> PriceChild: loads of ideas, and I would be really keen to discuss them at the UDS
<jono> I think integration of the forums involves a few things:
<jono>  * technical - ensuring the forums works with LP sign-on, getting forums info out to other source, feeding the forums with data from locos, list integration etc
<jono>  * social - ensuring people use the forums - this involves recommending people to go there, encouraging community growth there and more
<jono> the technical side can be discussed better with the distro and dev team, whereas I am keen to help the forums grow and continue to be integral in the community
<jono> its getting better that for sure, and the forums council are doing a stunning job
<elkbuntu> <mART> jono: QUESTION: Do you think the extensive use of launchpad will create a parallel universe for some activities especially in the Gnome community, E.g. translations in launchpad. How do you think the development process could be improved to avoid parallel efforts?
<jono> mART: LP is a complex subject, and I am not the best person to speak on it - there is a seperate team for that - I just work with the Ubuntu community, but as ever, I have thoughts and opinions :P :
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o Hobbsee]  by ChanServ
<jono> the idea behind LP is to be centralised and to work with other bug trackers and systems - its real strength is when projects use LP and they can communicate together
<jono> but naturally other upstream projects have their own systems in place, and I know the LP team are keen to get feedback about how to work with these projects
<jono> I think technically LP is pretty damn good, and it will live or die based on its ability to hook these projects together, which is the mission of LP
<jono> ok, before I continue, Hobbsee pointed me at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/LiveCDCustomization which could be useful for the livecd question earlier
<elkbuntu> <Belutz> QUESTION: do you have any suggestion of what to be put in presetations for Introducing Ubuntu and Feisty Fawn demo?
<jono> Belutz: aha! now you are talking :)
<jono> I love presenting :)
<jono> a few things to remember:
<jono>  * target the talk at the audience - make sure it matches their expectations - geeks want technicality - regular people want less technical discussion
<jono>  * make it interesting - by dynamic, exciting and different
<jono>  * don't fill your slides with text, it looks rubbish
<jono>  * use real-world details and examples of where Ubuntu is kicking arse - look at the loco teams, how the community is growing and more
<jono> I do some of this in my talks, check out herding cats to see some of these theories in practise
<elkbuntu> harrisony> QUESTION: How do you react to the people that boycott launchpad and ubuntu due to the licencing of LP?
<jono> harrisony: it doesnt surprise me at all that people bitch about LP's closed source nature, it rubs up against people in the free software people
<jono> I think boycotting Ubuntu is crazy for these reasons
<jono> Ubuntu is Ubuntu, not LP
<elkbuntu> <pixelpapst> QUESTION: since you mentioned pushing ppl. to use forums, should I point people to forums or answers.lp nowadays to look for help ?
<jono> pixelpapst: good question, and personally I would recommend both - the forums has one thing answers.lp.net doesnt - a huge community, but answers.lp.net is a great format for support - so both have their merits
<jono> I am also keen to see how we can bridge the two, but thats just some personal thoughts for the future :)
<elkbuntu> <harrisony> QUESTION: how would you rate microsofts open source/linux efforts
<jono> harrisony: Microsoft are tough company to comment on, because they are SO FREAKING HUGE
<jono> like any large company, there are good guys/girls and bad guys/girls
<jono> I know a bunch of people at MS who are incredibly good, have their heads screwed on, and know what to do - they live a different culture, but they are good people who believe in choice
<jono> then, on the flip side, I know some idiots, and people who believe that MS is the only way to go
<jono> I think as a company, they still don't get it - they still don't understand that what drives Linux and free software is community, not code
<jono> and they still don't get that interoperability does not mean "people who Microsoft want to partner with"  - it means allowing *anyone* to work with your technology
<jono> they have some great people, but I think some people further up the tree just don't get it and block the good people doing good things
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-classroom:elkbuntu] : The Ubuntu Open Week continues at 15:00 UTC || SCHEDULE: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek - SCHEDULE CHANGES, PLEASE SEE THE TIMETABLE || RULES: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules Please respect them || LOGS: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs || Ask questions and chat in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, "QUESTION: <insert question here> || current session: Community Q+A - Jono Bacon
<elkbuntu> <richb> QUESTION: Do you think the trend of of supplying flavours of Linux based on desktop environments or role will spread further (Currently Ubuntu and FC7)?
<jono> richb: possibly, but I think the trend of provding distros on "something unique" will continue - look at Ubuntu Studio, or Trixbox, or Gentoo, or Linux From Scratch - this what makes free software incredible
<jono> but there will always be popular general purpose distros like Ubuntu and Fedora
<elkbuntu> <PriceChild> jono, QUESTION: The Launchpad devs have seemed very reluctant to help integrate the forums wth launchpad. Supposedly due to the very good reason that Launchpad != Ubuntu. The forums have integrated a few features like links to accounts and related bugs to posts. Do you still think that this integration can be two way?
<jono> PriceChild: I know this sounds evasive, but I am not the best person to answer this because (a) I am not on the LP team and (b) I don't know :P - I recommend you speak to the LP team, via mrevell
<elkbuntu> <Belutz> QUESTION: when are you going to make a loco tour in south east asia to talk about loco? you can also make a metal concert while making a tour :D
<jono> Belutz: I would love to do a LoCo tour, and I am working to get out to different chunks of the world - I would love to get to south east asia - if something is happening, mail me and I will try to get over
<elkbuntu> <ukubuntu> QUESTION, how does a person who loves UBUNTU and the community, but cannot code, earn a living?
<jono> I am always keen to get out and visit loco teams
<jono> so mail me with details of your loco teams
<jono> and always keen to and drink beer and watch metal too :)
<jono> ukubuntu: loads of ways :) you can help with your loco team, advocacy, documentation, help people in the forums and on IRC - I recommend you ask some people today about how to help and they can help you get started :)
<elkbuntu> <luis_lopez> Question: What's the average time you have to be involved doing community work or development before applying to be a ubuntu member?
<jono> luis_lopez:  there is no average time really, its about how much you achieve - I always recommend people to have engaged in two or three projects, and done some real things that they can show off - this could be organising events, packaging things, translating apps or whatever - the CC looks for sustained contributions when deciding to make people members - so demonstrating you have done a bunch of things is always the best route to take :)
<elkbuntu> <Belutz> QUESTION: how does ubuntu/canonical acknowledged loco contributions?
<jono> Belutz: I don't quite understand the question
<jono> people are acknowledged like anyone else in the community
<elkbuntu> <deniz_ogut> jono QUESTION: What can you say about the Full Circle magazine, Ubuntu community magazine released issue #0. Perspectives for the future?
<jono> deniz_ogut: do you work on it?
<jono> <deniz_ogut> jono: just joined in some way
<jono> I had a look at it and I think its interesting - I have been looking to get in touch with the authors about a few things - so if they can get in touch with me that would be great
<jono> I think an ubuntu magazine is a pretty nifty idea, although a lot of these kinds of magazines due due to production time
<jono> I hope this continues :)
<elkbuntu> <tonytiger> jono: QUESTION. As Community Manager, you visit various communities at events around the world. What does a Community Manager do on a day-by-day basis, sat at home, though?
<jono> tonytiger: all kinds of stuff:
<jono>  * answer day to day queries about a vast range of things - I get *stacks* of email, and I need to respond to these emails that ask specific things
<jono>  * develop strategy for teams - help to grow, improve and better run teams - so I recommend teams do specific things
<jono>  * resolve conflict - I often act as a middleman when things blow up - I help to calm the situation and restore some peace
<jono>  * develop new plans and ideas - I develop new ideas (such as Ubuntu Open Week) to help develop and expand the community
<jono>  * work with Canonical - I also work with Canonical to ensure the connection with the community is always open and community is a key part of our business
<jono> oh, and eat sandwiches and donuts :)
<elkbuntu> <superm1> QUESTION: what do you think its going to take for more linux friendly vendors to begin shipping ubuntu/debian friendly packages?  It seems the popular trend is still rpms.
<jono> superm1: I think it needs a few things:
<jono>  * solid community infrastructure and documentation - we need a big and solid community who can help companies package their software - MOTU is critical here - if *anyone* wants to get into packaging JOIN MOTU!! :)
<jono>  * good ISV relations at Canonical - for business relationships we need a solid ISV department and a good partner programme - this is being run by Malcolm Yates who is a hero among men
<jono> I really encourage the community to make packages as easy as possible - we should have online resources that could make any knuckle dragging idiot able to package something :)
<elkbuntu> <mc44> QUESTION: Community support seems to be a rather disparate effort with forums, various irc channels, launchpad, mailing lists, locos, wiki help, official documentation etc. How do you think support can be improved in the future? (/me apparantly missed this one)
<jono> mc44: I think we need to figure ways in which to tie these things together where they make sense, but to also respect different mediums for what they are - some people love lists and hate forums, some love forums and hate lists and just about everyone loves IRC
<jono> we need to make sure we can share information but respect the different types of medium
<jono> thats a *tough* challenge and one that I often think about, but there is no clear solution
<jono> I think the interim is that we make *all* our communities strong and have good relations between them
<elkbuntu> <mART> jono: QUESTION: What do you think of the idea of creating some kind of ubuntu club that you can join when installing ubuntu. I could imagine this to be something like Apples iDisk Service used to be in the pre-.Mac era or like the Nintendo club. The difference would be that it only would be used to improve community interaction without commercial interest.
<jono> mART: I think the Ubuntu club people join is the Ubuntu cOmmunity
<jono> I think we need to make sure we can make it a sexy thing for people - interesting, exciting and motivating - and make it easy to join
<elkbuntu> <pwnedd> jono: QUESTION: Is there any good place where people can request / fill requests for features or articles related to Ubuntu? (I'm thinking along the lines of Wikipedia's requested articles)..
<jono> pwnedd: right now, I don't think so - but I recommend you speak to the docs team - it would be really useful to have a list of what needs doing external to the Ubuntu community, such as with wikipedia - I would love to see wikipedia filled out with more content about ubuntu
<elkbuntu> <ukubuntu> QUESTION, How small can a loco team be? Do you need technically able people in it to be an official loco.?
<jono> ukubuntu: I loco team can be tiny, and you don;t need to be technical - the key thing a loco needs is people who are keen to grow a team - it needs people who are willing and excited at encourage new people and encourage a team to develop
<jono> but always check to see if a loco exists in your area first
<jono> its essential that we have one loco per region and do not fragment
<elkbuntu> <Belutz> QUESTION: I mean, what if a loco team become inactive? and is there a reward for active loco, such as more stickers and cds for that loco team?
<jono> Belutz: the plan is that approved locos get more "stuff" available to them such as with the feisty cds
<jono> Belutz: in the future we will send approved locos event boxes to help run events
<jono> and we make other resources available to approved locos
<jono> if the team becomes inactive, it is key that the team is acknowledged as not being active - there is currently no process in place for this, and there needs to be
<elkbuntu> <harrisony> QUESTION:do you want another email (from me) to deal with :D
* jono listens to Cannibal Corpse- awesome
<jono> harrisony: another mail? where was the first one - or were you the person trying to sell me Viagra? :P
<jono> ahh, because I get heaps
<elkbuntu> he's offering to add to your workload
<jono> yeah, bring on the mail
<jono> although:
<jono> if people can answer questions before coming to me, its a huge help, otherwise I get a bit overloaded
<jono> so, for loco questions - ask loco-contacts first as an example
<elkbuntu> <reiki_work> QUESTION: I have been an Ubuntu user since August of 2005. Wehn do you think linux ingeneral will finally "seize the day" and get organized enough to seriously threaten Microsoft's hold on the world's wallets?
<jono> reiki_work: where we are different in the free software world is that we are iterative - lots of small steps
<jono> there will be no big day when we officially kick their ass
<jono> we are making lots of tiny steps and making progress, and its the best method - slow moving predators are always the hardest to deal with
<jono> and Microsoft has struggled in this regard - traditionally they never saw us as a risk, and our slow moving,consistant progress snuck up on them
<elkbuntu> <Hobbsee> jono: QUESTION: when will you write all the MOTU documentation for us, kthnksbye!
<jono> Hobbsee: haha, unlikely, I have my own rather bountiful workload to tend to :)
<elkbuntu> <sampbar> QUESTION: is there any staff members which could do Question and Answer sessions with school IT staff?
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o Hobbsee]  by ChanServ
* Hobbsee cries, greatly.
<jono> sampbar: for education, there is a chap called Richard Weiderman at Canonical who is a good person to speak to
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o Hobbsee]  by ChanServ
<jono> and for Edubuntu, ogra is the man
* jono smells burning
* jono wonders if his house is on fire
<elkbuntu> <jsgotangco> QUESTION: When is the next jono album be out in the P2P servers
<jono> jsgotangco: heh, I am currently working on some prep bits and pieces for a new album, not to be recorded in 24 hours mind you :)
<jono> I hope to have something released later this year :)
<elkbuntu> <mc44> QUESTION: If you were asking a question of yourself, what do you think the most important question ywould be? And what is the answer?
<jono> mc44: wow, awesome question!
* jono thinks
<jono> I think I would ask "Where do you draw the line between being a Canonical employee and being a community member?"
<jono> and the answer:
<jono> my philosophy is that the community needs to trust me, and I will never risk that trust - so that requires that I am always open, honest and frank in my responses - with me you get me, not a corporate droid
<jono> and part of this responsibility is tell Canonical when they are smoking crack as well as telling the community when it is smoking said crack
<jono> trust is essential to me, utterly essential - I am here for the community first and foremost
<elkbuntu> <tonytiger> jono: QUESTION. Linux communities have a tendency for the over-keen but well-meaning members to dominate, perhaps not in the best way. How do loco teams and other small advocacy groups stop this from happening, and ensure Ubuntu is presented in a fair light.
<jono> tonytiger: this is always tough, and its important that teams encourage a certain workflow - and this should be to be enthusiastic and balanced
<jono> there are lots of examples where people get a bit keen and make an ass of themselves, but with some gentle nudges and guidance the vast majority of people get the hang of it
<elkbuntu> what timing...
<jono> we all need to remember that being a good community dude or dudette does not come naturally to everyone
<elkbuntu> jono, repeat that last line when everyone is back
<jono> ok
<jono> we all need to remember that being a good community dude or dudette does not come naturally to everyone
<jono> there are lots of examples where people get a bit keen and make an ass of themselves, but with some gentle nudges and guidance the vast majority of people get the hang of it
<elkbuntu> <Belutz> QUESTION: with very large workload, how do youa manage your time to hang out, go to movies or find a soulmate?
<jono> Belutz: its tough, and I enforce my work hours and relaxation hours - I do lots of other stuff with the band, recording, hanging out with friends and such
<jono> I recently split with my girlfriend, so thats given me lots of time too
<jono> but it is a tough balance, particularly for such a public facing job
<jono> sometimes, I just need to unplug, but the problem is that community issues can escalate when I unplug, and for conflict that can be a bad thing
<elkbuntu> <ukubuntu> Question There is a Ubuntu-UK loco, where could I find a more localised group that is not just a lug? are there lists? Are there such @town@ locos in the UK?
<jono> ukubuntu: the recommendation process is to organise local meetings as part of that loco - speak to LoudMouthMan for more details
<elkbuntu> <tonytiger> jono: QUESTION. Sub-question then is how do you control the damage these people can do whilst you're re-educating them?
<jono> tonytiger: some damage will always occur while people learn the ropes, but if the community is understanding, its less of an issue - and usually when someone screws up and the community makes them realise, they don't screw up again - its like when you burn your fingers on the fire as a child, you don't touch it again - the key is not making it so that kid is a shivering wreck whenever they see a fire - we need a balanced approach
<elkbuntu> <apokryphos> QUESTION: will Ubuntu ever be able to run without computers, and instead run just on hype? :D
<jono> apokryphos: thats Hypebuntu 8.04  - get ready for it!!
<jono> right
<jono> I think we are about done
<elkbuntu> one more.... :D
<jono> ok :)
<elkbuntu> <harrisony> QUESTION: How do you officially pronounce  Canonical and Ubuntu ( can you record you saying it)
* elkbuntu giggles
<jono> you will be hearing a recording of me saying it very soon ;)
<jono> more on this later
<jono> I pronounce it:
<jono> can-on-i-cal
<jono> and uh-bun-too
<jono> thanks so much everyone for taking part, and thanks for the great questions :)
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-m]  by elkbuntu
<elkbuntu> Thanks Jono!
<jono> jono AT ubuntu DOT com is the address :)
<Belutz> jono, thanks for a pleasant session :)
<jono> have a great open week folks! :D
<pwnedd> Thanks jono :)
<sampbar> thanks jono
<jono> :)
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-classroom:elkbuntu] : The Ubuntu Open Week continues at 15:00 UTC || SCHEDULE: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek - SCHEDULE CHANGES, PLEASE SEE THE TIMETABLE || RULES: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules Please respect them || LOGS: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs || Ask questions and chat in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, "QUESTION: <insert question here> || current session: Packaging 101 - Jordan Mantha
<jono> LaserJock: King Of The MOTU is next up it seems
<jono> :)
<elkbuntu> Paging Dr LaserJock@
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o LaserJock]  by ChanServ
<LaserJock> elkbuntu: I'm here :-)
<harrisony> +m?
<elkbuntu> harrisony, only if he wants it
<LaserJock> elkbuntu: you going to stick around to do questions?
<elkbuntu> LaserJock?
<elkbuntu> LaserJock, yep
<LaserJock> elkbuntu: thanks
<LaserJock> elkbuntu: we'll see how it goes with the +m
<elkbuntu> do you want it moderated?
<harrisony> oh yeah i forgot
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+m]  by elkbuntu
<LaserJock> OK, first of all, thanks for coming everybody!
<LaserJock> This is what makes the Ubuntu community and Linux/Open source fun
<LaserJock> My name is Jordan Mantha and I'm a volunteer developer
<LaserJock> and a PhD student in Physical Chemistry
<LaserJock> today we're going to try to do a whirlwind intro to packaging for Ubuntu
<LaserJock> Monday's session had tons of great questions
<LaserJock> but we didn't have a chance to do much actual packaging stuff
<LaserJock> so today I'm going to try to do a little more
<LaserJock> First thing I'm going to have us do is set up a working package development system:
<LaserJock> sudo apt-get install devscripts debhelper dpatch cdbs dh-make patchutils fakeroot lintian pbuilder
<LaserJock> These packages have all kinds of useful tools.
<LaserJock> pbuilder is the only one that takes a bit to set up so I've tweaked a build script that comes with it to work with Ubuntu. first, grab it:
<LaserJock> wget http://tiber.tauware.de/~laserjock/pbuilder-ubuntu
<LaserJock> then you need to rename it to pbuilder-<release you want> (like feisty or edgy) and put it somewhere in your PATH. You can copy the script to pbuilder-<another Ubuntu release> and it'll be ready to go.
<LaserJock> Now a pbuilder is a minimal Ubuntu install built in a chroot environment. What it allows us to do is build the binary packages (.deb) from the source package without having to install all the build dependencies on our machine.
<LaserJock> It also help make sure the build dependencies declared in the source package are correct, as the pbuilder environment has only a minimal set of packages installed.
<LaserJock> So, lets create a feisty pbuilder:
<LaserJock> make sure to have a pbuilder-feisty script in you path and then run
<LaserJock> pbuilder-feisty create
<LaserJock> I can't really go into detail with all those tools, you can read more in the Ubuntu Packaging Guide
<LaserJock> http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/packagingguide/C/index.html
<LaserJock> if you're running dapper or edgy and it complains about making a feisty chroot go ahead an make a dapper or edgy one
<LaserJock> WARNING: pbuilder takes a fair amount of bandwidth and time, if you're on dialup or impatient just skip this step :-)
<LaserJock> you should be able to create a feisty pbuilder on dapper or edgy (that's the fun of pbuilder)
<LaserJock> ok, while that's all going lets move on
<LaserJock> elkbuntu: questions please
<elkbuntu> <rafaelmf> QUESTION: fakeroot is the best way  for packaging works(and do packages) without high level tool, such as pbuilder or dpkg-deb...?
<LaserJock> I strongly recommend you use a pbuilder environment
<LaserJock> you *can* use dpkg-buildpackage but it is messy for your system and can cause some problems in the source package sometimes
<LaserJock> elkbuntu: next
<elkbuntu> <ranf> LaserJock, QUESTION does it work for gutsy too?
<LaserJock> I don't think so yet
<LaserJock> we need a version of debootstrap that contains scripts for gutsy
<LaserJock> usually that's done fairly soon after the repos open
<LaserJock> in the mean time you can actually dist-upgrade a feisty pbuilder
<LaserJock> elkbuntu: more?
<elkbuntu> <habeeb> QUESTION: Will there be a repeat or something of this session? Because I'm not on Ubuntu right now, and I would like to try it out, ask questions etc.
<elkbuntu> LaserJock, i wait for your prompt, i dont know when you're finished
<LaserJock> habeeb: well, I did one on Monday, although it wasn't much of a tutorial
<LaserJock> you can find that on the OpenWeek website
<LaserJock> there's also a MOTU School session I did at : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/School/PackagingBasics
<LaserJock> that one is pretty good (about 4hrs worth of IRC lesson)
<LaserJock> elkbuntu: next
<elkbuntu> <Loic> QUESTION: how can we use a pbuilder environment to build *and* test packages for gusty while using feisty (i.e. without having to install gusty)? How do we switch between feisty to gusty and vice-versa using pbuild?
<LaserJock> well, for pbuilder you just need to copy that script I gave you to pbuilder-gutsy
<LaserJock> then you can run either pbuilder-feisty or pbuilder-gutsy
<LaserJock> as far as testing goes, I recommend a chroot
<LaserJock> elkbuntu: next
<elkbuntu> <brainsik> QUESTION: how can we get missing debootstrap scripts -- it seems on edgy I can't make a feisty pbuilder: http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/17630/
<LaserJock> brainsik: you need to install the debootstrap .deb from feisty
<elkbuntu> next?
<elkbuntu> <tuxmaniac> LaserJock, QUESTION: It says permission denied when I try to run pbuilder-feisty create
<LaserJock> brainsik: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebootstrapChroot has more info
<elkbuntu> thats all i see
<LaserJock> tuxmaniac: you need sudo rights to run pbuilder, that could be it
<LaserJock> ok, let's move on
<LaserJock> we've got very little time
<LaserJock> Debian binary packages (.deb) are built from source packages (makes sense). A source package is actually made up of 3 different files:
<LaserJock> 1. .dsc (description) file that holds md5sums of the other files
<LaserJock> 2. .orig.tar.gz which is the source tarball as you would download it from the program's homepage
<LaserJock> 3. .diff.gz that holds any changes we make to the .orig.tar.gz (including the packaging info)
<LaserJock> Now packaging can be broken down into two different tasks, making the initial package, and maintaining the package(s).
<LaserJock> we're going to try to touch on both briefly
<LaserJock> first off, how do we make a source package from scratch
<LaserJock> well, there is a fairly nice tool called dh_make for that
<LaserJock> it gives you a bunch of template files to use
<LaserJock> so let's make a source package, shall we? :-)
<LaserJock> we're going to package the GNU hello program today
<LaserJock> first off, let's make some working space:
<LaserJock> mkdir ~/hello
<LaserJock> cd ~/hello/
<LaserJock> then we need to grab the source
<LaserJock> and unpack it:
<LaserJock> wget ftp://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/hello/hello-2.2.tar.gz
<LaserJock> tar -xzf hello-2.2.tar.gz
<LaserJock> now this is a typical Linux application source
<LaserJock> but let's ubuntuize it ;-)
<LaserJock> cd hello-2.2
<LaserJock> dh_make -c gpl -e mantha@ubuntu.com -f ../hello-2.2.tar.gz
<LaserJock> let me explain that dh_make line a little
<LaserJock> the -c gpl tells dh_make that hello is licensed under the GPL
<LaserJock> you really need to make sure that that's right
<LaserJock> check the COPYING file in the source and the source files themselves
<LaserJock> the -e flag tells dh_make the email address I want to use
<LaserJock> and -f tells it what tarball to use for the source
<LaserJock> dh_make has a set of predefined licenses
<LaserJock> you can check them out by looking at man dh_make
<LaserJock> if the app isn't licensed under one of those then leave -c blank and you'll fill it in later
<LaserJock> ok, this is a single binary
<LaserJock> you can have more than one .deb come from a source package
<LaserJock> but in this case it is a simple app and we don't need to split it up
<LaserJock> now, if everyone has got dh_make done lets have a look at what it did
<LaserJock> cd debian/
<LaserJock> ls
<LaserJock> you will see many files. some with a .ex . These are various example files that you can use if needed. We don't need any of them so we're going to get rid of them.
<LaserJock> cd debian/
<LaserJock> rm *.ex *.EX
<LaserJock> in this case we also don't need dirs, docs, info, and README.Debian
<LaserJock> rm dirs docs info README.Debian
<LaserJock> so right now you should have 5 files
<LaserJock> changelog  compat  control  copyright  rules
<LaserJock> changelog should be fairly easy to get
<LaserJock> for me I changed the top line to:
<LaserJock> hello (2.2-0ubuntu1) feisty; urgency=low
<LaserJock> that reflects an Ubuntu versioning and that I"m making the package for feisty
<LaserJock> any questions?
<elkbuntu> <zorglu_> QUESTION: all the dh_* tools are usable, even if my apps doesnt uses autoconfig and co ?
<LaserJock> I don't know that all of them are usable, but yes, they should still apply
<LaserJock> elkbuntu: next
<elkbuntu> <tuxmaniac> LaserJock, QUESTION: Any pointers to the Ubuntu versioning standard would help
<LaserJock> ok, here's the general versioning scheme
<LaserJock> <upstream version>-<debian revision>ubuntu<ubuntu revision>
<LaserJock> so in this case 2.2-0ubuntu1 means:
<LaserJock> 2.2 is the upstream version
<LaserJock> 0 is the debian revision, indicating that this package is not in Debian (which isn't true, btw ;-)
<LaserJock> and 1 is the ubuntu revision
<elkbuntu> next?
<LaserJock> yeah
<elkbuntu> <harrisony> can i make the urgency ZOMG? (/me translates as 'are there specifically set urgency levels?')
<LaserJock> the urgency levels are specified in the Debian Policy, but aren't used in Ubuntu
<LaserJock> so just leave them at what they are
<elkbuntu> next?
<LaserJock> yeah
<elkbuntu> <Monika|K> QUESTION: The version was 2.2-1, so why change it to 2.2-0 (2.2-0ubuntu1) and not 2.2-1ubuntu1?
<LaserJock> well, because I'm illustrating what you do if it's never been packaged before
<LaserJock> so it wouldn't be in Debian
<LaserJock> I couldn't find an easy one that wasn't already in Debian ;-)
<LaserJock> ok, let's move on to the other files
<elkbuntu> no more q's that i can see
<LaserJock> control is an important file
<LaserJock> it's like the "vital facts" of the package
<LaserJock> it has the version, maintainer, build dependencies, etc.
<LaserJock> I don't have time to go into all the detail
<LaserJock> I'll give you some references at the end
<LaserJock> the only thing I changed was the Description:
<LaserJock> Description: hello word program
<LaserJock>  This on of those classic hello world program that every programming student
<LaserJock>  knows and loves.
<LaserJock>  .
<LaserJock>  Homepage: http://www.gnu.org/software/hello/
<LaserJock> notice the dependency on debhelper
<LaserJock> debhelper is an awesome tool (which provides many dh_ tools)
<LaserJock> the compat file in debian/ gives the version of debhelper we're using
<LaserJock> in this case it simply contains "5"
<LaserJock> copyright
<LaserJock> ok, copyright is where I see a lot of problems
<LaserJock> Open source software can often get quite messy when it comes to licenses
<LaserJock> in Ubuntu we try to be very very attentive to licenses
<LaserJock> we have to be sure we are legally able to distribute the software
<LaserJock> sometimes a program's website will say the program is GPL, for instance, but then there will be files they got from another source that aren't GPL
<LaserJock> the goal of the copyright file is to account for the license and copyright of *every* file in the source
<LaserJock> ok, on to rules
<LaserJock> rules is where all the fun happens
<LaserJock> it's the file that gives the build instructions
<LaserJock> it's a Makefile, which you might be familary with
<LaserJock> I really can't go into detail but you can get a lot of info from just reading the man page for each of the dh_ commands you see in there
<LaserJock> ok, let's build a source package out of it
<LaserJock> I use debuild
<LaserJock> which is a wrapper around dpkg-buildpackage -r fakeroot
<LaserJock> I run:
<LaserJock> debuild -S
<LaserJock> the -S says to create a source package rather than binary
<LaserJock> it will try to sign the package, so if you don't have a gpg key or it can't find it
<LaserJock> run debuild -S -uc -us to turn off signing
<LaserJock> if everything works right you should get some new files in ../../
<LaserJock> ok, did everybody make it?
<elkbuntu> <Monika|K> dpkg-source -b hello-2.2 failed :(
<elkbuntu> you lost a couple i think
<elkbuntu> LaserJock, there's a question, do you want it?
<LaserJock> well, I'll deal with ones that didn't work after, ok?
<LaserJock> elkbuntu: yes please
<elkbuntu> <Loic> QUESTION: Just to be sure I understood well : after I've used the script pbuilder-feisty, if I want to build a package for gutsy I just run pbuilder-gutsy without having to delete files installed by pbuilder-feisty, then just by putting feisty OR gutsy in the first line of debian/changelog everything will be taken care of?
<LaserJock> you want to copy the pbuilder-feisty script to pbuilder-gutsy
<LaserJock> then run pbuilder-gutsy create
<LaserJock> that will give you a gutsy pbuilder
<LaserJock> then you can build packages with that
<LaserJock> you can have many different pbuilders
<LaserJock> even Debian ones
<LaserJock> that's one of the nice things
<LaserJock> you can be running feisty but building gutsy .debs or edgy .debs
<elkbuntu> <brainsik> QUESTION: How do I know this is using the pbuilder environment? It looks the same as when I was building packages without pbuilder setup.
<LaserJock> ok, let's move on real quick to answer that
<LaserJock> once we have the source package
<LaserJock> .diff.gz .dsc and .orig.tar.gz files
<LaserJock> we can build .debs out of them with pbuilder
<LaserJock> pbuilder-feisty build *.dsc
<LaserJock> and if everything works out the way it should you should end up with some hello files in
<LaserJock> ~/pbuilder/feisty_result/
<LaserJock> ok, that's gonna end my session
<LaserJock> let me leave you with a few things and answer any last questions
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o PriceChild]  by ChanServ
<LaserJock> http://www.debian.org/devel/ has links to Debian Policy and other goodies
<LaserJock> also http://www.debian.org/devel/wnpp/
<LaserJock> which has lists of packages in Debian that are being worked on
<LaserJock> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/TODO has some good stuff to get going
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o ogra]  by ChanServ
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o ogra]  by ChanServ
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o ogra]  by PriceChild
* ogra waves
<LaserJock> check out https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/School
<LaserJock> http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/packagingguide/C/index.html
<ogra> LaserJock, dont forget the edubuntu meeting tonight ...
<LaserJock> and especially check out the MOTU
<LaserJock>  #ubuntu-motu
<ogra> i bet he forgot to tell you guys that he's not only a great packager but also a big edubuntu contributor :)
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-classroom:PriceChild] : The Ubuntu Open Week continues at 15:00 UTC || SCHEDULE: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek - SCHEDULE CHANGES, PLEASE SEE THE TIMETABLE || RULES: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules Please respect them || LOGS: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs || Ask questions and chat in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, "QUESTION: <insert question here> || current session: Edubuntu - Oliver Grawert
<LaserJock> OK, I've taken enough of ogra's time
<LaserJock> I can answer some stuff in -chat
<LaserJock> Thanks for coming everybody!
<PriceChild> Thanks LaserJock :)
<ogra> i'm fie :) dont worry about me... you are educating people so thats on topic ;)
<ogra> *fine
<PriceChild> Everyone who's just arriving, please join #ubuntu-classroom-chat so that you can ask your questions there.
<ogra> soo, welcome everybody
<ogra> i'm the edubuntu technical lead ... (cureently the only edubuntu dev so i can lead myself quite well *g*)
<ogra> so i'm responsible for all the technical integration of educational software ..
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+v sabdfl]  by PriceChild
<ogra> specifically in edubuntu, but also in general in ubuntu in education
<ogra> for the the people who dont know edubuntu yet, a short intor:
<ogra> *intro
<ogra> (my typing is very bad, sorry for that)
<ogra> edubuntu is the educational version of ubuntu
<ogra> it follows the ubuntu principles in every way ...
<ogra> we have three variants of edubuntu, a classroom server, a workstation install and a liveCD
<ogra> the classroom server deeply integrates the latest available thin client technology
<ogra> and aims to do much more in the future ...
<ogra> a workstation is a fine install for home use and the libeCD is great for testing
<ogra> since edubuntu comes with so much educational software nd als doesnt really care about desktop environment restrictions (like running KDE apps in gnome)
<ogra> we constantly had space problems ...
<ogra> so since feisty we decided to ship edubuntu on two CDs
<ogra> many of the space taking educational apps are now available on the serveraddon iso ...
<ogra> additionally we followed a big request from the community and added all language packs to this CD
<ogra> many of the typical edubuntu users are located in countries where you only get bad bandwith so this should help them to get edubuntu running in their native language
<ogra> the setup is very imilar to a k12ltsp setup ... a well known edu distro
<ogra> but with ubuntu underneath and indeed the newer tsp5 that was developed in ubuntu ...
<ogra> *ltsp
<ogra> any former k12ltsp users switched over and our community grows constantly since the first release we had with breezy
<ogra> so i see some questions coming up in -chat
<PriceChild> <Moniker42> question: what makes edubuntu better for educational networks/applications than regular flavour ubuntu or kubuntu?
<ogra> Moniker42, actually only the integration of apps and the dedicated community we have ... we try to drop the strict barriers between edubuntu and "ubuntu in education" a bit over time ...
<ogra> the plan is for example to move much of the ltp integration that happened in edubuntu over to ubuntu
<ogra> edubuntu will include moodle in the next release in a default setup that offers you to start right away ... while moodle in ubuntu will inherit an updated package, the integration work will happen in edubuntu
<ogra> next question ...
<PriceChild> <sampbar> QUESTION: what are your current plans for getting more UK schools and college's to adopt edubuntu as their operating system of choice
<ogra> sampbar, well that would be a better question for RichEd (richard weidemann) who manages the ubuntu educational team ... we have invited a lot of peope to the ubunru education summit and afaik also some uk people are among them
<ogra> beyond that we had a boot at the last BETT conference ...
<ogra> *booth
<ogra> edubuntu is also taking part in an EU project called edulinux but sadly the uk delegates jumped the boat recently
<ogra> next question ...
<PriceChild> <McKinney> QUESTION: ogra, what would you guess how many people/schools are already running edubuntu?
<ogra> several thousands ... but thats only a very rough guess, i know we are very very popular in exotic regions of this world .... like vanuatu or curacao :)
<ogra> but i was also told that about a quater of ubuntu using FISL visitors were edubuntu users ...
<ogra> its hard t get exact numbers here :)
<ogra> next question ...
<PriceChild> <sampbar> QUESTION2: Do you have a team of staff or represenatives which could possibly give talks on the benefits of edubuntu?
<ogra> we'Re about to hire a second developer in case you want talks about technical stuff ... beyond that we have a decent educational team in ubuntu so dont hesitate to ask ;)
<ogra> next question ...
<PriceChild> <dee> QUESTION: Did you hear from the German Seminarix-CD (www.seminarix.org) and has compared it with Edubuntu?
<ogra> nothlit, they didnt contact me yet ... i heard about the project yesterday the first time when someone pointed me to it
<ogra> oop
<ogra> s/nothlit/no
<ogra> i would love to hear from them ...
<ogra> especially since i'm german so it should be easy to meet up and discuss collaboration :)
<ogra> next question ...
<PriceChild> <Jack3132> QUESTION: How will you convince schools in the states that a free linux distro is better and easier to use at their school instead of things like Windows XP that the Gates foundation often donates to the schools?
<ogra> Jack3132, i hope time will do ... and our work on bug #1 ;) but apart from that we have a good bunch of former k12ltsp users that roam around and promote their solutions on conferences etc
<ogra> and indeed te populartity of ubutu itself keeps us very much in the face of people :)
<ogra> next question ...
<PriceChild> <Armagon> QUESTION: Does Edubuntu work on older Macintoshes (PowerPCs, I believe)?
<ogra> hmm
<ogra> how old :)
<ogra> we support G4 in ay case with edgy and dapper ...
<ogra> i think G3 should work as well ...
<ogra> i never tried anything older than G3
<ogra> apart from that we could need more ppc devs to care for the now community maintined powerpc port ...
<ogra> there are many iMacs in education i heard ...
<ogra> naxt question ...
<PriceChild> <tsmithe> QUESTION: If I want to persuade my school to use Edubuntu over a Windows solution, I'll need a strong case. Is there anywhere I'd find a list of features that a secondary (high) school would be looking for; or should I look elsewhere? Why should my school use (Ed)ubuntu?
<ogra> we have some documents on www.edubuntu.org and there are flyers etc in preparation you can download and print out
<PriceChild> <joebaker> QUESTION:  For an office wanting to get the most out of LTSP might it be advisable to install Edubuntu rather than Ubuntu?
<ogra> apart from that there are indeed some quite obvoius advantages edubuntu has over windows ... like no viruses etc (the general stuff) but also the ease of centralized management of an ltsp server
<ogra> next question ...
<ogra> heh, no
<ogra> installing edubuntu s advisable if you want the least hassle to get a working ltsp environent ...
<ogra> but the work you would invest to debrand it and remove the edu apps to get back to a plain ubuntu wouldnt weight out the time you save ...
<ogra> next question ...
<PriceChild> <Monika|K> QUESTION: How is Edubuntu different from Debian Skole Linux?
<ogra> well, it is based on ubuntu, art from that we have y very good relationship to skolelinux ... i also work very close with one of the debian edu devs on ltsp
<ogra> *apart
<ogra> oh my ...my typing doesnt get better
<ogra> some of the debian edu/skole people will atted the ubuntu educational summit next week ...
<ogra> and i hope we can improve our relationship even more then :)
<ogra> next question ...
<PriceChild> <Armagon> QUESTION: If I want to help develop Edubuntu, do I need a machine dedicated to running an unstable release?  Can I make clients connect to a "production/stable" machine or a "testing" machine fairly easily?
<ogra> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UES-Sevilla/ <-- btw
<ogra> it depends *what* you develop ... :)
<ogra> for plain package patching you surely will be fine with a chroot with an unstable development release inside ...
<ogra> if you wnt to develop ltsp or installer integration bits i'd go at least with a virtual machine ...
<ogra> it really depends on the task ... even bug triaging is developemnt ;) you could do that from windows ;)
<ogra> next question ...
<PriceChild> <tuxmaniac> ogra, QUESTION: I see a lot of packages on Edubuntu targetting school children of ages around 10 - 15. Any plans of edubuntu becoming a Educational Ubuntu for Engineering/Science Graduate students? Or has it already have the softwares by default?
<ogra> YES !
<ogra> absolutely
<ogra> the spilt into two CDs will open us a lot of options we didnt have before
<ogra> LaserJock has wored out a age driven menu mechanism we will ship eventually and i  would like to see age driven tasks on the addon CD so you can just pich your app sets by age in the future
<ogra> *pick
<ogra> we tried to reflect that direction a bit by adding rasmol and qucad to the feisty release
<ogra> *qcad
<ogra> we will revisit the selection of aps we ship at the educational summit i mentioned above
<ogra> next question ...
<ogra> *apps
<PriceChild> <sampbar> QUESTION: do you have any figures on how much an average school saves running edubuntu over running microsoft windows?
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o AndrewB]  by ChanServ
<ogra> lots, i suspect ... but no, i dont have numbers ...
<ogra> to sad will is gone for the day, i think if you ask willvdl in #edubuntu if he's around he can get you some ....
<ogra> next question ...
<PriceChild> <harrisony> QUESTION: What are the best ways to help edubuntu (although i am not a coder)
<ogra> we had our first release of the edubuntu handbook with feisty ...
<ogra> we are constantly looking for authors to help out here :) (it took three releasest get what we have now ... its a very slow process, more people would help speeding that up)
<ogra> apart from that testing packages and finding bugs is always appreciated ...
<ogra> if you have some coding skills patches as well :)
<ogra> the biggest help is always people that step up to help iso testing during development :)
<ogra> next question ...
<PriceChild> <deniz_ogut> ogra QUESTION: What can you say about the localization level/percent/need of the *applications* present in Edubuntu apart from general *buntu localizations?
<ogra> not much, i'm not up to date on the edubuntu specific packages (and i'm not sure you could filter them) all edubuntu packages are reflected in rosetta and in the language packages though ...and indeed we inherit most of the translations from ubuntu
<ogra> i think the shipping of all available language packs is a good start to get edubuntu into specific places where we we'Rent before due to bandwith restrictions, so i hope that will gain us some more translations in return :)
<ogra> next question ...
<PriceChild> <jrib> QUESTION: Are there any key applications that educators have asked for but are not available on edubuntu?
<ogra> many  ...
<ogra> often educators know an app from the proprietary world where they dont find an equivalent for in the oss world ...
<ogra> sadly not everything is replaceable here as long as no project steps up to develop such tools
<ogra> we try to get developers to do it throught things like googles summer of code though
<ogra> but you cant volunteers ;)
<ogra> *cant force
<ogra> next question ...
<PriceChild> <sampbar> QUESTION: do you have any plans to work with educational pc distributors to provide edubuntu preloaded on pc's?
<PriceChild> <Loic> QUESTION: Most public schools can only buy hw from big sellers (not from small companies) because of government rules, so they end up with windows pre-installed. Are there big companies offering edubuntu?
<PriceChild> (they're similar)
<ogra> i*d love to i think thats something to bring up at our OEM team ...
<ogra> beyond that we'll have intel attending the educational conf and presenting the classmate PC they develop ...
<ogra> who knows where that leads us ;)
<ogra> next question ...
<PriceChild> <fsman> QUESTION : I use edubuntu for my 5yr old daughters pc - love it, thanks. Only thing i really have on my wishlist is integrated parental controls. (Christian edition has it) it would be neat if edubuntu had it as a standard feature - especially as its aimed at kids. adding parental controls into e/ubuntu isn't straight forward for mr average. Whats your views on this being added to edubuntu?
<ogra> its one of the most important features imho ....
<ogra> but sadly also one of the features that have most imapct in the whole underlying system
<ogra> it needs very deep desktop and system integration and thus a very good spec that covers all possibilities ...
<ogra> i suggested t have a a minimal parental control implementation through a summer of code project so we would have something to build on, but sadly no developer stepped up to do it
<ogra> it is still on my list ... and i'd love to see someone stepping up to do it :)
<ogra> next question ..
<PriceChild> <Monika|K> QUESTION: Is there a list of those requested programs anywhere?
<PriceChild> <jrib> QUESTION: Is there a list of applications that edubuntu really needs but doesn't have so volunteers can look over it?
<ogra> we used to have one during the breezy and dapper cycles ... currently no such lists exists since we didnt have the space for new additions until the switch to two CDs
<sabdfl> evening all
<ogra> you can look through the edubuntu wiki for the old lists ....
<ogra> next question ...
<ogra> oh
<ogra> no questions anymore ... feel free to ping me in #edubuntu :)
<PriceChild> Thanks very much ogra :)
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o sabdfl]  by ChanServ
<ogra> dont forget if you are near sevilla next week .... https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UES-Sevilla/
<ogra> ;)
<sabdfl> thanks ogra!
<ogra> thanks all :)=
<sabdfl> i was just answering a question from a newspaper about why free software is so important for education
<sabdfl> so thanks to ogra for leading that work
<ogra> sabdfl, thanks for letting me ;)
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o ogra]  by ogra
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-classroom:PriceChild] : The Ubuntu Open Week is here! || SCHEDULE: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek - SCHEDULE CHANGES, PLEASE SEE THE TIMETABLE || RULES: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules Please respect them || LOGS: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs || Ask questions and chat in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, "QUESTION: <insert question here> || current session: Ask Mark - Mark Shuttleworth
<sabdfl> ok, will someone volunteer to chair the session? pricechild?
<PriceChild> I'm good :)
<PriceChild> <Hobbsee> can you ask what the status of the commercial repos are, and what canonical's plans for them are
<sabdfl> cool, thanks
<sabdfl> Hobbsee: the commercial repos are expanding as companies realise that it's worth them going to the effort of putitng together proper, supported packages
<sabdfl> many companies that come from Windows or UNIX don't appreciate how cool and important packaging is
<sabdfl> hopefully, once they have a taste of that, they move towards a better understanding of free software in general
<sabdfl> and have more information to base their own decisions about license freedom around
<sabdfl> do you have any specific things you would like to see in there?
<PriceChild> (Hobbsee is asleep now)
<sabdfl> next question?
<PriceChild> <fql> QUESTION: Several ubuntu pages and also bug #1 in launchpad note that ubuntu is entirely free (as in free speech), however in the default install this is not true (drivers etc.), are there plans on making this more transparant to the user?
<sabdfl> fql: we should always qualify that as "only free applications"
<sabdfl> at least, i fix it that way in the wiki when i run into it
<sabdfl> we have had the driver exception in place since the beginning, so it's not as though this has changed
<sabdfl> hopefully, the new flavour will also carry the "pure free" flag
<sabdfl> next question?
<PriceChild> <sampbar> QUESTION: sabdfl - Mark, what new features would you like to see implemented in ubuntu in the next couple of years? and are there any features you would like to see improved?
<sabdfl> of course :-)
<sabdfl> there are two separate lines of attack, i think
<sabdfl> one is "the race to parity"
<sabdfl> we need to get our category-specific apps to be as good as the current best of breed proprietary app in that category
<sabdfl> we need a word processor that is as good as word
<sabdfl> a spreadsheet as good as excel
<sabdfl> we already have a better browser :-)
<sabdfl> then there is the second race, which is "the thought leader", which is all about innovation
<sabdfl> we saw with firefox, when it hit parity, that the extension mechanism was a HUGE driver of creativity and innovation
<sabdfl> this is why i fund bazaar - because i think innovation comes from the periphery of the community as much as from the center
<sabdfl> and we need revision control which is cross-platform, robust, and distributed
<sabdfl> i would like to see us reach parity in more desktop apps
<sabdfl> and of course, i'd like people to start to see free software as the place where the genuinely groundbreaking innovation happens
<sabdfl> this is also why i think it's so important to get compiz/beryl into ubuntu
<sabdfl> because they are fertile grounds for creativity
<sabdfl> the proprietary guys are not far ahead
<sabdfl> if we give developers the tools and an audience, they will do amazing things
<sabdfl> next question?
<PriceChild> <dee> QUESTION: Today I read (German: http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/88800) that Jane Silber has said that Firefox 2 might come for Dapper Drake? Is this true? And do you want to upgrade all firefox-dependent packages or should it be just additionally to Firefox 1.5? Doesn't this stand in a strong contrast to the LTS?
* sabdfl scrambles to find a translation of that article
<sabdfl> i can't find jane either, so not sure of the context. my gut feel is its unlikely we would make radical changes to LTS releases without a long -proposed test period
<sabdfl> my other gut feel is that jane doesn't speak unless she's certain of the facts, and probably knows more about that than me
<sabdfl> :-)
<sabdfl> so i can't really add anything useful now, and will just ask for the next question!
<PriceChild> <McKinney> QUESTION: i read an interview with andreas barth criticizing ubuntu. what do you think, in which way can ubuntu and debian profit from each other in future? http://www.golem.de/showhigh2.php?file=/0704/51531.html&wort[] =andreas&wort[] =barth
<PriceChild> (link is again in german)
<sabdfl> again, hard for me to respond, i can't read the german
<sabdfl> however, i think debian and ubuntu already benefit hugely from one another
<sabdfl> we have brought debian millions of new users, in a category that it was never previously taken seriously in, the desktop
<sabdfl> in addition, many new DD's come through Ubuntu, or first discover debian through Ubuntu
<sabdfl> we are expanding the debian universe, which is very good for debian
<sabdfl> we lead a lot of very useful work, which eventually gets included in debian
<sabdfl> they are considering upstart, for example
<sabdfl> and also considering our live cd infrastructure
<sabdfl> perhaps even the ubuntu installer
<sabdfl> they largely depend on work we do on the toolchain, on python, on java etc
<sabdfl> the flip side is also true
<sabdfl> we benefit hugely from debian's depth and breadth
<sabdfl> we consider ourselves to be part of the debian family
<sabdfl> it's sad for me, that when ubuntu releases there are 2 messages about it on debian planet - one of celebration from a person who contributes to both, and one a bug report
<sabdfl> but i'm happy that, when debian releases, there are tons of congratulations to debian on planet ubuntu
<sabdfl> i would like to see better collaboration
<sabdfl> many dd's routinely read patches that we automatically mail to them when a package is modified in ubuntu
<sabdfl> others just ignore them
<sabdfl> it would be nice to have debian recognise the contribution ubuntu makes
<sabdfl> we get twice the volume of bug reports now, not because we are more buggy, but because we reach a wider audience
<sabdfl> debian would benefit if they took an interest in ensuring that their packages are getting that wider exposure
<sabdfl> next question?
<PriceChild> <zorglu_> QUESTION: what is the status with cnr ? any idea of when it gonna be usable for ubuntu ?
<sabdfl> zorglu_: i know the linspire folks are working on that, and i hope it will be ready soon! but i don't have an eta
<sabdfl> next question?
<PriceChild> <popey_> QUESTION: how do you feel about the way you are portrayed by the online comic strip Everybody Loves Eric Raymond?
<sabdfl> i love it!
<sabdfl> did you see today's?
<sabdfl> http://geekz.co.uk/lovesraymond/archive/taking-freedom-further
<sabdfl> as they say in the movie business "did ya spell my name right? there's no such thing as bad publicity" ;-)
<sabdfl> next question?
<PriceChild> <[doctor] > QUESTION: Mark, what about "Ubuntu Control Center" as Yast or Mandriva Control Center ... A lot of newbies ask for it
<sabdfl> doctor: first we'd need to have good packages, so if those users want to start work on that we can get them into universe with MOTU help, and then consider them for main
<sabdfl> next question?
<PriceChild> <Moniker42> question: mark, what do you think of Charles Simonyi's claim to be "the first nerd in space"
<sabdfl> hey, i know a bunch of russians and americans who are just as nerdy as me and him, and went up before either of us
<sabdfl> nonetheless, i think it's great that he flew, and hope he had a smooth flight
<sabdfl> it's a privilege to get up there, and i'm envious of anybody who goes without me!
<sabdfl> next question?
<PriceChild> <popey_> QUESTION: What are you doing to counter the claims that launchpad is evil because it is closed source?
<sabdfl> funny, i had an email about that the other day, from a gmail address :-)
<sabdfl> first, i would like to have LP published under the GPL
<sabdfl> i have a plan to get there, in a way that will (a) not fragment the eyeballs, and (b) allow us to continue to pay the developers
<sabdfl> i don't see the point in releasing it until we can get those two things right
<sabdfl> the main issue right now is that LP is a centralised design, when really we need a federated standard that works for bugzilla, roundup, sourceforge, collab, launchpad etc
<sabdfl> if we released it, and 10 people set up their own instances, then the work required to keep track of everything LP keeps track of would go up by 10x
<sabdfl> alternatively, the quality of info in LP would go down by 10x!
<sabdfl> so, for example, right now if a bug is filed in zope
<sabdfl> and the zope guys think it's also in the ubuntu zope packages
<sabdfl> they can get us to look at it just by updating LP
<sabdfl> and if they think its in gentoo too, they can link to their bug tracker
<sabdfl> and they only do that once per community
<sabdfl> if there were multiple LP's, they would lose that
<sabdfl> next question?
<PriceChild> <spr0k3t> QUESTION: I've seen some of the estimated numbers for *buntu, but I'm curious... how many unique IP addresses did the canonical servers see on th 19th of April?
<sabdfl> wow, not sure i have that number
<sabdfl> but there were 53 mirrors before we announced, and 130 by the end of the day, that we know of
<sabdfl> so hits on canonical.com are a small fraction of total
<sabdfl> i think we were serving 12 gigabits / second from ourselves and top 5 mirrors :-)
<sabdfl> probably 20 gbits/s in total
<sabdfl> 3 cd's per second
<sabdfl> for 12 hours
<sabdfl> pretty amazing
<sabdfl> if you were in #ubuntu-release-party, you know it was quite a rush :-)
<sabdfl> next question?
<PriceChild> <gumpa> QUESTION Does Canonical have a relationship with the OLPC folks?
<sabdfl> gumpa: not officially, no
<sabdfl> i would like to, i think their work is amazing, and ubuntu is a good fit
<sabdfl> but we've never been asked to participate
<sabdfl> next question?
<PriceChild> <deniz_ogut> sabdfl QUESTION: How do you evaluate the chances/challenges for Ubuntu based business models. Can Canonical try to push governing bodies in proper ways to spread Ubuntu in addition to local voluntary efforts?
<sabdfl> deniz_ogut: good question, i guess we will have to find out!
<sabdfl> we are already seeing that many governments like ubuntu, and base their own efforts on it
<sabdfl> we have official relationships with some of them, and it works very well
<sabdfl> but it's not universal
<sabdfl> free software is still very new in government terms - they take a LOOOONG time to think things through
<sabdfl> next question?
<PriceChild> <pixelpapst> QUESTION: I am leading the development of a highly customized CDD, and am considering switching to Ubuntu partially as the base. Would I be expected to track all of our work in Launchpad ? I am concerned with keeping security-bugs secret (and cannot pay Canonical lots of money for this, sadly).
<sabdfl> pixelpapst: you would never have to use LP, use whatever works best for you
<sabdfl> we will have a security bug framework that lets you keep those confidential without being a subscriber (but only for the designated security team)
<sabdfl> and if your project is community driven and non-commercial, we will in many cases give you free access to LP advanced features
<sabdfl> next question?
<PriceChild> <darich> question: are there any plans for large scale marketing campaigns a la Firefox for Ubuntu(full page adds etc..)
<sabdfl> darich: you mean bigger than the billboards? that was a fun campaign
<sabdfl> all in good time
<sabdfl> first we have to crack the corporate market, and be sustainable
<sabdfl> we are taking a very unconventional approach, but we are on good track
<sabdfl> next week you will see two big announcements, one of which will probably dominate the media
<sabdfl> but both are really nice steps towards sustainability for the project
<sabdfl> our goal is to be sustainable and completely free
<sabdfl> we are neither right now
<sabdfl> but we are moving towards that goal very steadily
<sabdfl> next question?
<PriceChild> <sampbar> QUESTION: Mark, do you feel that open office is in the right direction to becoming as good as word and excel?
<sabdfl> tough question
<sabdfl> i'm getting worried about their developer approach
<sabdfl> it still feels like a closed community
<sabdfl> i know they WANT to fix that
<sabdfl> the head of that group at Sun has the right ideas, but it's hard to move a big ship
<sabdfl> oo.o has been a huge boost for free software
<sabdfl> because it is cross platform
<sabdfl> i had lunch with an interesting lawyer today, and he was telling me that he installed oo.o and was "really impressed that it worked so well"
<sabdfl> he was amazed that it just opened word docs nicely, and he could find his way around easily
<sabdfl> great!
<sabdfl> but it doesn't have the rapid evolution that we see in other Gnome or KDE projects
<sabdfl> i think AbiWord, and KOffice would be slicker, faster, lighter if they had more developer time
<sabdfl> but because OO.o is the 800 pound gorilla, it's hard to get a lot of developers on those others
<sabdfl> 63,000 unique IP's hit releases.ubuntu.com on 19 april, not bad for half a day's work :-)
<sabdfl> so i would like to see oo.o get "more open"
<sabdfl> it took mozilla long time to gestate and produce firefox
<sabdfl> we need the same thing from oo.o
<sabdfl> next question?
<PriceChild> <grail> QUESTION: You have written a quite interesting piece about DRM on your blog, so what would be your recommendation for the music industry. How - in your opinion - should they position themselves?
<sabdfl> grail: i don't give free business advice outside of my blog :-)
<sabdfl> next question?
<PriceChild> <McKinney> sabdfl QUESTION: in an interview you said that maybe gutsy+1 could be the next LTS-release. is it already concluded which release will be the next lts?
<sabdfl> no
<sabdfl> tech board needs to discuss this, and canonical needs to take a view on resources too
<sabdfl> there are lots of questions
<sabdfl>  (a) which will be the next LTS
<sabdfl>  (b) will we follow the same process as we did for Dapper, or do it differently?
<sabdfl> and many others
<sabdfl> i think it will be gutsy+1 or gutsy+2
<sabdfl> next question?
<PriceChild> <Riddell> QUESTION: some developers are wondering why UDS Sevilla specs from canonical employees are being organised on a private wiki and not publicly on launchpad
* sabdfl goes to look
<sabdfl> i don't see anything in the proposed list that looks that way
<sabdfl> there are some specs i know of which have not been submitted
<sabdfl> because they relate to unannounced partnerships
<sabdfl> (but hey, there's only a week in which we have to announce them)
<sabdfl> everything at the UDS's happens transparently
<sabdfl> *sometimes* we'll have private meetings with partners there
<sabdfl> but the sessions are generally open to all participants
<sabdfl> we once had a funny situation where we had a private meeting with a very big partner
<sabdfl> and then we realised that one of the folks, who we thought worked for them, they thought worked for us, and was actually a community participant who worked for a media company
<sabdfl> next question?
<PriceChild> <welshbyte> QUESTION: which areas of the ubuntu community do you think need the most focus towards their expansion at the moment in order to cater for the huge amount of bug reports and new users that Ubuntu is seeing?
<sabdfl> developers and bug triagers
<sabdfl> there's a nice bug triage community forming
<sabdfl> they have a fantastic impact, because they help to distinguish between bugs which can be reproduced and those which cannot
<sabdfl> they help the developers to focus on the items that are most important
<sabdfl> next question?
<PriceChild> <Daviey> QUESTION:  Why is 'ubuntu' a trademark of Canonical and not the Ubuntu foundation?
<sabdfl> Canonical is the funder of the brand
<sabdfl> The Ubuntu Foundation is a trust that exists in the event that Canonical can no longer support Ubuntu
<sabdfl> so, when we made a long term support commitment, i figured out how much money we needed in the bank to meet that commitment
<sabdfl> and setup the Ubuntu foundation
<sabdfl> and gave them that amount of money
<sabdfl> no matter what happens to Canonical, the money is there to meet the support commitment
<sabdfl> you can safely deploy Dapper and you will not suddenly find yourself unsupported
<sabdfl> but we don't touch that money, it's an insurance balance
<sabdfl> so, in that light, it makes more sense to have Canonical manage the brands
<sabdfl> it invests in the marketing, and also makes decisions about the ways in which people can use the brand
<sabdfl> so far, it's working well
<sabdfl> http://www.ubuntu.com/aboutus/trademarkpolicy
<sabdfl> next question?
<PriceChild> <pwnedd> Question: For a large number of people, the number one reason for getting a pc is for gaming. Right now however there are few mainstream games written for or even compatable with linux. Do you think there is anything the ubuntu team can do to change that, and open up linux to a larger population?
<sabdfl> i agree this is a big, important question
<sabdfl> gaming developers are like other ISV's
<sabdfl> they write software to sell software, so they want to see (a) how many people use a platform, and (b) what percentage of them WOULD PAY to use their software on that platform
<sabdfl> that gives them a market size
<PriceChild> <popey_> QUESTION: Please buy transgaming, and package cedega for us :(
<PriceChild> :P
<sabdfl> they then compare that to the cost of the port
<sabdfl> and the lost time in making the port (while their competition works on new products)
<sabdfl> and then take a decision
<sabdfl> they key is not who owns cedega, the key is the business model that supports it
<sabdfl> no point in buying it and changing the model if that means it becomes unsustainable
<sabdfl> next question?
<PriceChild> <flossgeek_> QUESTION: Do you not think it would be a good idea to push the sun java stack as part of a solution in the enterprise and create a good partnership with SUN
<sabdfl> i'm cautious of the word "push"
<sabdfl> we try to choose the best free software components
<sabdfl> and make those instantly available
<sabdfl> and have everything else accessible from the network package repos
<sabdfl> i do think the SUN implementation of Java is the best
<sabdfl> and can't wait for it to be free software
<sabdfl> most of the core should be ready for gutsy
<sabdfl> some components will not make it because of third-party license issues
<sabdfl> but it's a big step forward
<sabdfl> i do like to partner with the best companies in each sector
<sabdfl> and for Java stacks, that would have to be SUN
<sabdfl> next question?
<PriceChild> <maccam94> QUESTION: how would you convince a school or company that ubuntu is ready for the desktop? there are very few other local deployments, so the impression is that nobody else is using it...
<sabdfl> maccam94: schools and companies are different
<sabdfl> for education, free software has huge advantages
<sabdfl> the tremendous breadth of free software makes it possible to teach EVERYTHING using computer tools
<sabdfl> art
<sabdfl> science
<sabdfl> maths
<sabdfl> computer science
<sabdfl> music
<sabdfl> you name it
<sabdfl> i don't know a school that has all of the windows apps to teach those
<sabdfl> but it's easy to do so with Edubuntu or K12-LTSP
<sabdfl> schools and companies do share the same support / ecosystem concerns
<sabdfl> and there its just a question of showing them where they can buy support and training
<sabdfl> it will take time
<sabdfl> next question?
<PriceChild> <Armagon> QUESTION: What steps would you advise an experienced programmer (who lacks F/OSS development experience) to take in order to quickly become a valuable contributor to the community?
<sabdfl> find something you are personally really interested in!
<sabdfl> preferably a smaller component
<sabdfl> that's written in a language you know
<sabdfl> then climb in!
<sabdfl> a good community will welcome you
<sabdfl> if you don't feel welcome, look elsewhere
<sabdfl> so WELCOME!
<sabdfl> next question?
<sabdfl> (last, probably)
<PriceChild> <McKinney> QUESTION: lets suppose you're on the way to a public discussion with a debian enthusiast (not the debian "evangelist" himself, but quite close). what would your strategy be to come out of it as the "winner"?
<sabdfl> hey, we've already won with him, we're on the same side
<sabdfl> thanks everybody!
<sabdfl> phew
<PriceChild> Thanks very much :)
<sabdfl> fingers hurt
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-m]  by PriceChild
<giangy> burp
<giangy> :)
<popey> thanks sabdfl
<pixelpapst> cool
<pixelpapst> thanks mark
<maccam94> thanks mark!
<artdeco> sabdfl: mark, we (heart) you!
<j1mc> thanks, mark!
<annimar> thanks a lot
<sabdfl> that was fun :-)
<suzan> thanks mark
<spr0k3t> rock on Mark!
<pwnedd> Thanks mark :)
<Helmi> thanks for your time, Mark
<ezphilosophy_> thanks
<habeeb> I bet that McKinney didn't wait for that answer.
<nic-oooh> thx
<Sanne> thank you sabdfl, very informative session
<LoCusF> thanks mark
<grail> thanks mark
<annimar> thanks PriceChild!
<Gaxeio> thanks mark
<PriceChild> hehe no problem annimar :)
<Belutz> thanks mark, although my questions didn't make it in time :)
<McKinney> i think that answer was pretty cool :-)
<sampbar> thanks mark
<lapland> sabdfl: thank you :)
<fsman> thanks
<cddk> thanks
<kunstar> thanks
<maccam94> PriceChild: thanks for handling the questions ;-)
<granite230> thanks
<varka> thank you mark
<McKinney> thank you sabdfl
<habeeb> arigato sabdfl !
<EADG> Nice session, thanks
<Moniker42> sabdfl, pricey wouldn't let you help me with my computing coursework....
* Warbo knows there'll never be an "Ask Bill" :)
<spr0k3t> oh noes!
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-classroom:PriceChild] : The Ubuntu Open Week is here! || SCHEDULE: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek - SCHEDULE CHANGES, PLEASE SEE THE TIMETABLE || RULES: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules Please respect them || LOGS: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs || Ask questions and chat in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, "QUESTION: <insert question here> || current session: Community support with Launchpad - Alan Pope and Francis Lacoste
<LoCusF> :))
<pixelpapst> sabdfl, Lurkan wanted to point out a communication failure with Canonical - might want to /msg him :)
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o popey]  by ChanServ
<habeeb> Go get them popey !
<cddk> P genhr, sabdfl
<PriceChild> popey, which is lacoste's nick?
<popey> flacoste:
<flacoste> PriceChild: flacoste
<popey> :)
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o flacoste]  by ChanServ
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o sabdfl]  by ChanServ
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+m]  by PriceChild
<popey> Right then.
<PriceChild> popey, I'm sorry I have to run off myself :(
<popey> Greetings one and all, this session is all about the Launchpad Support tracker
<popey> ok no probs PriceChild
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o PriceChild]  by ChanServ
<popey> <intro type="standard">
<popey> My name is Alan Pope, I'm an Ubuntu user just like most of you. I don't work for Canonical, I'm not a developer, I can't really code, have no artistic skills whatsoever. It's not looking good is it!?
<popey> </intro>
<popey> I just happen to have used Ubuntu quite a bit as a user and home-system administrator when I discovered the support tracker last year, and I decided to contribute to the community by helping out with that.
* popey pokes flacoste 
<flacoste> And my name is Francis Lacoste. I work for Canonical as lead developer of the Launchpad Answer Tracker.
<popey> * Introductions to Answers
<popey> "Answers" is the Launchpad support tracker: http://answers.launchpad.net/ .
<popey> It's a web based system allowing users to post questions which are hopefully answered by experienced users. The people answering the questions are Ubuntu users (and sometimes developers) who give their own time to answer the questions. It should be noted that there is no Service Level Agreement (SLA) and no obligation for people to reply.
<popey> Whilst the code and hosting of Answers in Launchpad is provided by Canonical, the data (questions and answers) is provided by users, developers and as such I believe that it is vital the community get involved.
<popey> There's two ways to access the support tracker, via the web and via email. You can use either or both methods to access.
<popey> Some people think of Answers as a simple forum in that people post a new thread (ticket/question) and other people answer it (reply) via a web page. Most forums fulfil this basic functionality. Many of the usual things you find in forums are not there however (signatures, avatars and so on).
<popey> Some people consider Answers to be like a simple mailing list. People post a new question on the website which is sent out via email to subscribers who can reply to that mail. Further replies are also sent out to users and as such a conversation "thread" can happen as it does on mailing lists.
<popey> So if you are familiar with either a forum or a mailing list, then using Answers should make sense to you.
<popey> It's worth pointing out that it should not be thought of as a real-time chat system like IRC. Users can post questions and the answer may not come for hours or days, or never at all in the worst case. There have been occasions where people post questions and then within a few minutes start replying themselves asking why they haven't got an answer yet.
<popey> I put this down to familiarity with the system, and usually send a polite reply explaining in one or two lines how the system works, or point to a wiki page explaining it.
<popey> You can subscribe to the support tracker via email so you get sent all questions and answers as plain text emails to your launchpad primary email account. You can reply to the questions directly via email by simply hitting reply in your browser. If you use email, your own email address is masked to prevent spam, and stop people mailing support contacts directly.
<popey> Your reply goes back to the support tracker mail account and then back out to the original question poster, and anyone else subscribed to that ticket.
<popey> Each mail has a link which takes you directly to the ticket. You can click the links in the mail and answer the question on the website rather than reply to the mail.
<popey> Be warned that if you subscribe to all the support tickets, you will get an awful LOT of mail (around 100 or more a day). It's often hundreds of mails a day, so if you want to help out I suggest either configuring some good filtering, or simply use the second option which is to use the answers website only, and not receive.
<popey> Note that even if you don't subscribe to the tracker to get all mails from all tickets, you will still get mails from tickets that you answer via the website. You can of course unsubscribe, or choose not to receive mail deliveries from tickets you have answered.
<popey> You don't have to subscribe to all the mail of course, in fact not many people do. You can just subscribe to the tickets you are helping on, or ones that you might have an interest in - for example if you are also experiencing the same problem and want to follow how the problem is fixed.
<popey> Ok, lets take a break and answer a couple of questions..
<popey> QUESTION: Why not use the _forums_?
<popey> (from habeeb sorry)
<popey> Answers is tightly integrated into launchpad, so you can for example easily link to bugs, or create bug reports out of tickets
<popey> (which you can't do on the forums)
<popey> I suspect flacoste will talk about some other new features in a bit in answers too
<flacoste> Answers has additional advantages over forums too
<popey> in addition I can get the support tickets as mails and reply to those mails to help people
<flacoste> a) It tracks the status of the question, soyou know what still needs answer
<popey> this is something forums cannot do
<flacoste> b) when asking a new question, users get a list of similar questions first
<flacoste> c) launchpad karma :-)
<popey> you can assign your ticket to a product/project so that developers of that product/project can focus on answering those tickets
<flacoste> and from the Launchpad perspective, the Answer Tracker can be used for any Launchpad-hosted project
<popey> the forums are massive
<popey> the developers would have a hard time trawling through the forums looking for support questions IMO
<popey> it's easy in answers, there is one url to go to for all outstanding questions for one product
<popey>  < kunstar> Question: So how is LP answers different to the ubuntu forums? Why should I use LP and not the forum or vice versa?
<popey> one of the problems with all support systems - forums and answers alike, is that you have no way of knowing whether the person answering the question actually has a clue what they are talking about
<popey> ok, forums have the coffee beans so you can see how many posts they have made, which gives you some level of confidence
<popey> launchpad has karma as flacoste says, and you can easily look someone up and see what teams they are in, what they have done, so you can assess their credentials
<popey> and decide whether you want to take their advice or not.
<popey> < habeeb> QUESTION: Couldn't ubuntuforums get hacked to be able to do that? I mean, creating a whole section in the Launchpad sounds unnecessary to me..
<popey> you would need to speak to the forums guys about that
<popey> given that answers is clearly a strategic part of launchpad, which is a strategic part of the development and support process of Ubuntu, I don't see why it would necessarily go away or be replaced by the forums
<popey> especially as that would put flacoste out of a job :)
<popey>  < niekie> QUESTION: Does answering questions on Launchpad answers affect Launchpad karma?
<popey> yes. if you lookup someones karma for example:- https://launchpad.net/~alanpope/+karma  you can see how they got it...
<popey> note nearly all of my karma comes from answering support tickets
<popey> ok, back to the notes..
<popey> As answers is part of launchpad this means there are launchpad features we can make use of.
<popey> From within the answer tracker you can link a support ticket to an existing bug (or bugs), or convert a support ticket into a bug report. If you just type "BUG 1" it will automatically become a link to that bug in launchpad for example
<popey> Answers are language dependent. A user can report a problem in their own language and get replies in the same language.
<popey> Ok. a little about actually using answers..
<popey> https://answers.launchpad.net/ - base URL for answers, which allows you to see all questions for all products registered in launchpad.
<popey> https://answers.launchpad.net/ubuntu - URL for Ubuntu specific support tickets. Within this are the packages that make up the Ubuntu distribution. NOTE: This includes Kubuntu and Xubuntu packages too. There is no specific answers URL for Kubuntu/Xubuntu (that I am aware of)
<popey> https://answers.launchpad.net/launchpad - URL for Launchpad specific support tickets. If you discover a problem in the answer tracker in launchpad itself, you can file support ticket here.
<popey> https://answers.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+addquestion - Direct link to ask a new question. I paste this on irc when people ask support questions in inappropriate channels.
<popey> And the next one is the most important url..
<popey> https://answers.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+questions?field.status=Open - Direct link to currently open questions - PLEASE take a look at some and see if you can answer it!
<popey> s/it/them
<popey> Unfortunately not all questions get answered
<popey> This is of course a problem for all support systems - hopefully as the answer tracker becomes more well known, we can reduce the number of open, and unsolved tickets. We can also help some beginners with a little googling and pointing them in the right direction.
<popey> If you don't know the answer I would recommend _not_ replying with "I don't know". We don't really want answers flooded with "I don't know"s on loads of tickets, and if you do answer, they lose their "open" status, so it's difficult to get an overview of completely unanswered tickets.
<popey> Some questions may converted to bugs. Most are just answered with a link to the wiki, forums, documentation or a 3rd party site like linuxprinting.org or debian-administration.org :)
<popey> If replying via mail, make sure your mail client sends plain text, wraps text nicely, and you trim out the original text.
<popey> * Tips on how to find answers to questions you don't know the answer to already
<popey> Start with the wiki! Do a search in http://wiki.ubuntu.com/ for the computer name, product, model number or whatever detail you have been given. There is a surprising amount of information in the wiki which is in the format of easy to understand How-Tos. Don't copy and paste the contents, direct users to the specific page or pages that may help.
<popey> Google is your friend! You would be amazed how many tickets are solved by simply searching google for the error message. I am not suggesting you find the first hit and paste it in, take a moment to read a few of the hits on google and see which best suits.
<popey> Please don't tell people to google. This doesn't help them. Many people don't understand how to search, and throwing them JFGI, RTFM or the URL to google is NOT going to win them over.
<popey> Try things out yourself! For example some questions ask about how to compile or install some oddball 3rd party application which isn't in the repository. First thing of course is make sure it really *isn't* in the repository. If it is, that's a quick win! If it isnt then maybe you could try downloading the source and try yourself.
<popey> This may confirm problems the questioner has, and maybe you could file a bug
<popey> Alternatively it could be that they missed some step that you can tell them about.
<popey> Send people to the wiki wherever possible - if you detail a procedure, then someone else in 6 months time may come to find that via google, and it may no longer be a valid set of steps. The wiki is editable and in theory should be updated when procedures change, as such we should direct people there instead wherever possible.
<popey> * Finally, some specific common issues
<popey> Some questions come up all the time.
<popey> "I need a driver for my printer"
<popey>  - take a look at http://linuxprinting.org/ for a good compatibility list, try the vendors website - some do actually have Linux .ppd drivers
<popey> "How do I get my video card working"
<popey>   - use the wiki! There are now very few video cards that are tricky to get going under Linux, and the ones that are, are most often documented pretty well
<popey> "My wifi card doesn't work"
<popey>  - Again, the _vast_ majority of cards are either directly supported in Linux, require ndiswrapper or madwifi to make them work. The wiki is the best place to start here.
<popey> "You all suck and I want to rant about it!"
<popey>  - Try to calm the person down and figure out what the real problem they have is. Often it's the cumulation of a number of little niggles that sends them over the edge. Remember the Code of Conduct :)
<popey> "My screen resolution is wrong"
<popey>  - I see this probably at least 2 or 3 times a week. Usually it's just a case of dropping to a terminal and reconfiguring x, but some hand-holding is often useful as the terminal is a scary place for beginners.
<popey> 
<popey> Ok, that's all my prepared material, how about I answer a few questions, then maybe flacoste can talk about new features coming up
<popey> < spd106> QUESTION: Does the proprietary nature of launchpad and I'm assuming answers too, prevent better integration with ubuntuforums?
<popey> Personally I (and the ubuntu forums admins) don't think ubuntu forums and launchpad will ever integrate fully.
<popey> the technologies and aims are so very different
<popey> the forums have a very low barrier to entry, are popular with new users and have a massive base of users and some really committed experts
<popey> BUT
<popey> it isn't integrated into launchpad, and other features flacoste will talk about (and already has) are missing and aren't likely to ever appear in the forums
<flacoste> i may add a little here
<popey> Go ahead caller..
<flacoste> someone raise that integration issue on the launchpad-users mailing list a while ago
<flacoste> Launchpad will grow better XMLRPC interface in the future, so displaying of LP content in the forums will be possible
<popey> shall we move on?
<flacoste> btw, is the ubuntuforums free-sotfware?
<popey> heh
<flacoste> popey: we can move to the next question
<popey> < salty-horse> QUESTION: how do I subscribe to receive all question related to a specific package?
<popey> I am not sure you can for a specific package
<flacoste> you can
<popey> ahh yes
<flacoste> just go to the source package Answers page and use 'Set answer contact'
<popey> https://answers.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/beryl-core/+questions  <- note on the left "Set Answer contact"
<popey> if beryl-core is your thing
<popey>  < kunstar> QUESTION: So does this mean it would be better for the community if I were to ask questions in LP instead of the forums?
<popey> tricky one to answer
<popey> the community is a big place and includes all those thousands of people in the forums
<popey> if you answer questions on the forums, or on launchpad, google will find it
<popey> in the future people can google and thus find your answers wherever they are
<popey> however, the integration in launchpad makes that easier
<popey> want to find all the problems with a package...?
<popey> https://answers.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ < insert package name here > /+questions
<popey> so you can look back quickly through all the questions for one package
<popey> with the forums you would have to search to find that
<popey> the data in launchpad is very structured, the data in the forums isnt
<popey> (as well structured)
<popey> (imo)
<flacoste> i think either place is good, what is important for the community is that questions get answered wherever they are
<flacoste> but of course, I would suggest you use the Answer Tracker, but I have a conflict of interest there
<flacoste> popey: next question?
<popey>  < kunstar> QUESTION: So does this mean it would be better for the community if I were to ask questions in LP instead of the forums?
<popey> 20:28 < robertj> popey: QUESTION: Is there _ever_ a time I don't know should be used?
<popey> oops
<popey> yes
<popey> I have used it myself
<popey> when i have had an exchange of question and answers on one ticket
<popey> and they finally exhaust my knowledge (this does happen :) )
<popey> i may finally say "I am sorry, I don't know" in the hope someone else will answer
<popey> but for a brand new question, no, there is no reason to reply "I dont know" in my opinion, it doesn't really benefit anyone
<popey>  < Treenaks> QUESTION: Does gpg-signed mail work?
<popey> dunno, I guess so given i have replied and all my mails are GPG signed by default
<flacoste> GPG-signed email work
<popey> there you go
<flacoste> but signature isn't required
<flacoste> you just have to post from a registered email address
<popey> 20:33 < kunstar> QUESTION 2: LP answers sounds great and I'll definitely be using it from now on, but if you had to estimate, how much of the knowledge that is contained within the forums is currently encapsulated within LP answers? Am
<popey>                  I better off sticking to the forums until LP Answers gets more beefed up with content?
<popey> thats a paradox isnt it|?
<popey> if everyone waited until there was knowledge there would be no knowledge
<popey> Personally I prefer answers..
<popey> ..for me it works well, I can answer support questions from anywhere that i have access to email
<popey> ok, any more questions?
<popey> flacoste: do you want to outline some new funky features?
<flacoste> Ok, so some future developments we are considering for the Answer Tracker:
<flacoste> We will add more knowledge base features.
<flacoste> It will be possible to manage 'FAQ-type' of answers.
<flacoste> One tricky issue here is how to leverage the existing Ubuntu community material (forums, wiki, etc.)
<flacoste> We are also looking into improving the display of users credentials.
<flacoste> To make it easier to know to access the confidence you can have in someone answer.
<flacoste> You currently have to look-up the user' karma yourself now.
<flacoste> Another great thing about the Answer Tracker is that it is multi-languages.
<flacoste> You can already post and answer questions in your native language.
<flacoste> But the UI isn't localized yet, we want to fix that now.
<flacoste> In sketchy lines, that's what is currently in the pipeline.
<popey> Groovy
<flacoste> If you have any suggestion or encounter any problems, please file a bug on https://bugs.launchpad.net/launchpad-answers/
<flacoste> feel free also to ping me in #launchpad if you want to discuss your idea with me
<flacoste> or post to the launchpad-users mailing list
<flacoste> Any more questions?
<popey> I guess answers is turning more into a helpdesk system than a forum/mailing list with those new features
<flacoste> that's exactly the plan
<popey> so it should be easier to make the comparision between answers and ubuntuforums
<popey> and be able to easily *see* the difference :)
<popey> Ok, if there are no more questions, than thanks everyone for listening, thanks to flacoste, and click here--> https://answers.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+questions?field.status=Open  :)
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-m]  by popey
<flacoste> thanks a lot popey!
<popey> np
<salty-horse> thanks!
<fmodgon1> !
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o PriceChild]  by ChanServ
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-classroom:PriceChild] : The Ubuntu Open Week is here! || SCHEDULE: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek - SCHEDULE CHANGES, PLEASE SEE THE TIMETABLE || RULES: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules Please respect them || LOGS: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs || Ask questions and chat in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, "QUESTION: <insert question here> || current session: Bazaar - Martin Pool
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o PriceChild]  by ChanServ
<ditsch> thanks flacoste and popey! can't wait to see that growing...
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o poolie]  by ChanServ
* flacoste welcomes poolie
<flacoste> which will present the Bazaar session
<mohnkern_> Any more sessions today?
<poolie> two more
<poolie> ok, let's go
<mohnkern_> Cool.
<poolie> this session is about Bazaar
<poolie> i'm Martin Pool, one of the Bazaar developers
<poolie> we also have jam, John Arbash Meinel, also a Bazaar developer
<jam> Hi all
<poolie> to start with, what is Bazaar?
<poolie> Bazaar is a distributed version control system
<poolie> it keeps a history of changes to a source code tree
<poolie> and aids in: finding out what was changed, when, why, by whom
<poolie> merging
<mohnkern_> QUESTION: Like Subversion?
<poolie> merging changes made by different people
<poolie> undoing mistakes, doing code review and so on
<poolie> A: yes, like subversion
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o jam]  by ChanServ
<poolie> the biggest difference is that Bazaar allows distributed work, so you can commit when you don't have a network connection to the server
<Treenaks> QUESTION: How 'good' is Windows support? Are there plugins that do 'graphical things' like the GTK plugins in Linux? Do the GTK Plugins work in Windows if you can find pygtk + gtk for windows?
<poolie> in fact, you don't need to run a server at all, you can just host files on a web or ftp server
<poolie> other version control systems include cvs, git, monotone, mercurial, darcs, clearcase, etc
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o PriceChild]  by ChanServ
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+m]  by PriceChild
<PriceChild> (Please ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat )
<poolie> A: there is ver good windows support, there is a windows configuration tool and gtk tools to look at history, diff, commit, etc
<poolie> they do work on windows
<poolie> and some people are working on a tortoisebzr program to integrate it into the shell
<jam> The current guis are all built on gtk+pygtk, which has implementations on both Mac and Windows
<jam> Except the Visual Studio integration
<jam> which is done in C#, IIRC
<poolie> i'd like to do a few more introductory questions, then take people through a short tutorial/demonstration
<poolie> ok so
<poolie> we're going to quickly go through a demo of how you might contribute a fix to someone else's source tree
<poolie> if you're on ubuntu, do 'sudo apt-get install bzr' to make sure it's there
<poolie> on other platforms look at bazaar-vcs.org
<poolie> this tree is hosted on launchpad - hosting of Bazaar branches is one feature Launchpad offers as well as bug tracking, translations, etc
<poolie> so if you're ready to go let's
<poolie> type
<poolie> bzr branch http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~mbp/+junk/seminar
<poolie> this will download a copy of my sample branch into a directory called 'seminar'
<poolie> you've now made a new independent branch
<poolie> cd into there
<poolie> you'll see one file
<poolie> you can type 'bzr log' to see the history of when it was created
<poolie> there is also a .bzr directory containing control information
<poolie> now edit 'hello' in your text editor
<poolie> add a line or something, save and exit
<poolie> try 'bzr diff' and it will show you what you changed
<poolie> try 'bzr status' and it will tell you just the name of the file you changed
<poolie> 'bzr help' tells you other things you  can do, like adding, deleting and renaming files
<poolie> if you're happy with your change, do 'bzr commit' and it will ask you for a message describing the change
<poolie> this commit has now gone into your branch, which has diverged from mine
<poolie> if you do bzr log, you'll see that your name is in there too
<poolie> this works without you needing to be added to our project, or even to have a launchpad login
<poolie> which is different to cvs
<poolie> if you have a launchpad account, you can push your changes back up, with
<poolie> bzr push sftp://USERNAME@bazaar.launchpad.net/~USERNAME/+junk/seminar
<poolie> the +junk stands in place of a product name - normally they must be associated with a product so we can link them up
<poolie> now i've also committed a change to my branch
<poolie> so if you do 'bzr merge' it will integrate your changes with what i've done
<poolie> this will probably cause a conflict if we both changed the same part of the same file
<jam> Loic: QUESTION: When I do "bzr commit" it opens nano. What am I supposed to do there?
<jam> Loic: It is giving you the opportunity to write a commit message
<jam> Type some basic information about the change
<jam> and then save and quit your editor
<jam> when you do "bzr log" afterwards
<jam> it will show the commit along with the message you associated
<poolie> ok so please say in -chat if you've successfully got a file with conflicts?
<poolie> now you'll want to edit that file, to resolve the conflict - remove the marker lines, and choose one or both new bits that you want to keep
<poolie> then do 'bzr resolved hello'
<poolie> and then you can commit again, this time you can give the message on the command line with
<poolie> bzr commit -m "merge from martin"
<poolie> it's also worth mentioning that in the upcoming 0.16 release, you can also link to bugs when you commit
<poolie> for launchpad, bzr commit --fixes lp:202020
<poolie> ok as some people have noticed
<poolie> after your commit, you can run bzr lgo
<poolie> or even log
<poolie> and it shows you the merged-in revisions indented
<poolie> ok, so this has just got the fix into your branch
<poolie> if you wanted to share it with me you have a few option
<poolie> you could push to launchpad, and tell me about the branch
<poolie> or to another web server
<poolie> or, you can do 'bzr bundle' which gives you an enhanced diff suitable for mailing to a person or a list
<poolie> and they can then do 'bzr merge BUNDLEFILE'
<poolie> ok, so to wrap up, i'll show you how to start a new project
<poolie> we need to introduce the concept here of 'repositories' which is a directory that stores information about a set of related projects
<poolie> to use less disk space, and so that when you push or pull from them, it does it only once
<poolie> <frosty__> QUESTION: When would I use merge, and when would I use pull?
<poolie> pull means 'make this branch a mirror of theirs', merge means 'integrate their work into mine'
<poolie> so normally you use pull when you have a mirror of a remote brancnh
<poolie> you might also use it in a long-running branch when all its changes have been integrated upstream
<poolie> pull keeps your changes in the working copy
<poolie> jam, anything to add on that?
<jam> rulus: question: so if I get it right, a 'pull' creates a 'branch' that will automatically 'merge'?
<jam> Not quite
<jam> "pull" will update your working tree with the changes from upstream
<jam> in a similar way that "merge" will
<jam> But from a user perspective they have a different "feeling".
<jam> When you use "pull" you mean to say "I want this branch to be a copy of theirs".
<jam> Which is different from "I want to include their changes in my work" (merge)
<jam> 'pull' doesn't create the branch
<jam> It just updates your branch to be a copy of their branch
<jam> frosty__: QUESTION: So what if there are conflicts when you pull?
<jam> frosty__: There are 2 types of "conflicts" that can occur during 'pull'
<jam> 1) if you have uncommitted changes, and upstreams changes conflict with yours
<jam> these are resolved like any other file-level conflicts
<jam> by editing and then running 'bzr resolve'
<jam> 2) If you have made local commits, and they have made commits
<jam> In that case, you can't turn your branch into a copy of theirs
<jam> because you have committed changes
<jam> So you either need to
<jam> switch and use "merge"
<jam> *or* use "pull --overwrite"
<jam> which says "Make mine like theirs, and throw out my changes"
<poolie> ok
<poolie> so to wrap up 'starting a new project'
<poolie> to make a new branch, do 'bzr init DIR' - can be either an existing unversioned source tree, or it will create a directory
<poolie> you can tell bazaar about files to ignore - typically build products like *.o or *.pyc
<poolie> using 'bzr ignore', or by editing .bzrignore at the top level
<poolie> then do 'bzr add' to tell bazaar you want to version all the files, or you can add them individually
<poolie> then commit, and you're off and running
<poolie> that concludes my tutorial content -- jam, anything to add?
<jam> poolie: I think that is good, as long as people don't have more questions on the demo
<poolie> let's do some questions then
<jam> ih70: QUESTION: Why do we need yet another source control system. What objectives does bzr achieve that are not possible in say SVN?
<jam> frosty__: QUESTION: Why should someone use bazaar, over another distributed system? Say, darcs, git, or mercurial?
<jam> Well, each of the projects takes a little bit different approach to the world of VCS
<jam> To start with
<jam> SVN... the juggernaut of centralized version conttrol
<jam> SVN has evolved into a very good system for versioning source code where everyone is given access to the same repository
<jam> well, at least a 'good' system...
<jam> What it doesn't handle very well, though, is repeated merging between branches
<jam> Or being able to commit "offline"
<jam> Like on your laptop while on a plane
<jam> But the biggest difference is the idea of "decentralized".
<jam> With bzr, anyone can create a local branch of an existing project
<jam> and make their changes, committing as they go
<jam> And then present their changes to 'upstream' in a fashion that is easy to merge back
<jam> With SVN, anyone not priveledged with commit access has to fall back to diff and patch
<jam> making them a second-class citizen
<jam> With bzr, you have full access to version control
<jam> It actually follows the Open Source philosophy very well
<jam> Now, pretty much all of the DVCS systems support that too. Which is what the "Distributed" is in Distributed Version Control System
<jam> So why "bzr" versus darcs, git, monotone, hg, ...
<jam> I could go into a blow-by-blow of how we function differently from each of them, but that is a very long discussion
<jam> The short answer is that we have tried (and continue to put a lot of effort) into making bzr a great system that you enjoy using
<jam> We support multiple workflows from fully distributed to mostly centralized (like SVN).
<jam> We are getting better and better integration with Launchpad
<jam> allowing you to track open bugs and close them from a simple 'bzr commit'
<jam> And it is also the system that Ubuntu is switching to for its development
<jam> because it wants to make it easy to contribute changes back and forth between Ubuntu and upstream (debian, etc)
<jam>   Admiral_Chicago: jam: can't SVN be set up with anyone having commit rights
<jam> SVN can be set up to give everyone access rights
<jam> but that is sort of like changing your web page to remove any password protected logins
<jam> Anyone can now introduce changes into your core
<jam> With bzr, everyone has access to create changes
<jam> but *you* have control over your mainline
<jam> And bzr just makes it (much) easier to merge their changes
<poolie> <Adhemar> QUESTION: (As a non-programmer) Suppose I would like to have a versioned home directory (not just source, most of it text though) (the Video directory excluded) and have the home of my laptop "merged" regularly with the home of my desktop. Would using bzr make sense somehow? (Or are you aware of better alternatives, maybe transparent versioned file systems for Ubuntu?)
<jam> Also, SVN doesn't handle merging between branches within the same repository very well... we let you do it from anywhere
<poolie> Adhemar: bzr could be good for that; you should also look at Unison, which is just a two-way smart synchronization tool
<jam> Adhemar: I use bzr for the files I modify, like .vimrc .bashrc, etc
<jam> but for most projects
<jam> I have a separate bzr branch for them
<jam> rather than having everything in one mega-project in my home dir
<jam> ih70: QUESTION: How well does bzr deal with binary files?
<jam> ih70: In general, bzr handles binary files well
<jam> The binary delta code is not optimal
<jam> but it does produce deltas
<jam> The biggest shortcomming is handling of *large* (100MB+) files.
<jam> We are focused right now on making bzr very good for source control
<jam> and versioning CD ISO's is a very different project
<jam>   rmunn: QUESTION: If I'm using bzr, but upstream isn't, how do I easily create a patch to present to them? Is there a "bzr push --patch" or some such command?
<poolie> rmunn: easiest is
<poolie> bzr diff -r ancestor:../upstream .
<poolie> if your import of their upstream branch is in ../upstearm
<poolie> <txwikinger> QUESTION: Can you push through web proxies, using dav, and on web servers needing authentication?
<poolie> yes, you can
<jam> Loic: QUESTION: Is it possible to use bzr for package creation, and has it been done (pros/cons)?
<jam> Loic: I know there are a couple of ways to do this
<jam> There is a "bzr-buildpackage" plugin
<jam> to help automate generating debian packages (and possibly rpms as well)
<jam> In general, with bzr you can have finer grained details about what has been changing, associated with the actual changes to the files
<jam> versus a "release 1.1" has these changes versus "1.0".
<jam> rulus: question: I'm using bzr for school reports made in Latex. I'm thinking of hosting the branch on my webspace as a backup, and then commit changes to it through bzr. However, I don't want the whole world to read my school reports. Is there some bzr gpg plugin to en/decrypt on the fly?
<jam> rulus: At present, there is not an encrypted layer
<jam> however, you can use .htaccess files to control who has access to your files
<poolie> time to finish...
<poolie> rulus: someone is working on an encrypted storage format
<jam> and there is a Google SoC project for having an encrypted repository
<jam> I think we need to wrap it up
<jam> Since it is time for the next session
<jam> But I would like to invite everyone to #bzr if they have any more questions
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-classroom:PriceChild] : The Ubuntu Open Week is here! || SCHEDULE: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek - SCHEDULE CHANGES, PLEASE SEE THE TIMETABLE || RULES: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules Please respect them || LOGS: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs || Ask questions and chat in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, "QUESTION: <insert question here> || current session: Resource Primer - Brandon Holtsclaw
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o imbrandon]  by PriceChild
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o tonyy]  by ChanServ
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o tonyyarusso]  by ChanServ
<jam> As always, questions are more than welcome in #bzr
<jam> Thanks to everyone who participated.
<PriceChild> Thanks jam, poolie
<PriceChild> imbrandon, You're up :)
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-oooo AndrewB elkbuntu jam poolie]  by PriceChild
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-oo popey PriceChild]  by PriceChild
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o PriceChild]  by ChanServ
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-m]  by PriceChild
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o PriceChild]  by ChanServ
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o PriceChild]  by ChanServ
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-classroom:PriceChild] : The Ubuntu Open Week continues at 15:00UTC - be there! || SCHEDULE: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek - SCHEDULE CHANGES, PLEASE SEE THE TIMETABLE || RULES: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules Please respect them || LOGS: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs || Ask questions and chat in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, "QUESTION: <insert question here>
<PriceChild> Seems like imbrandon is away, hopefully he will be able to hold this session on thursday at the same time.
<PriceChild> Sorry all.
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-oo imbrandon PriceChild]  by PriceChild
<deniz_ogut> Thank you PriceChild. It was a great day.
<shawarma> PriceChild: What is Brandon's session about anyway? I can't seem to find a description anywhere.
<PriceChild> "Resource Primer"
<shawarma> Yes?
<shawarma> Meaning?
<shawarma> :-)
<Nergar> no sessions in progress?
<n2diy> Nope, the teacher cut class! :)
<eolo999> great!?!
<eolo999> he got asleep
#ubuntu-classroom 2007-04-26
<RADD> Hello?
<nealmcb> shawarma: Yeah - I had the same question about "Resource primer".  Resource as in... documentation?  tools?  human resources? http resources (uRls)?    Such a vague term....  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resources
<nealmcb> RADD: the presenter didn't show up for this session....
<RADD> NEALMCB: thank you for letting me know.
<RADD> Have a good day you all!
<^^malajenho^^> hi
<jrib> hi
<^^malajenho^^> one moment
<^^malajenho^^> I'm coming
* chaddy passes the tissues
<^^malajenho^^> hi again
<^^malajenho^^> i'm trying to compile a source withot configure, only with makefile
<^^malajenho^^> and when I do a "make"
<^^malajenho^^> this is the answer:        gcc -fno-for-scope -c -D__LINUX_WLAN__ -D__I386__ -o wepattack.o wepattack.c
<^^malajenho^^> cc1: aviso: la opcin de lnea de comando "-fno-for-scope" es vlida para C++/ObjC++ pero no para C
<^^malajenho^^> wepattack.c: En la funcin loop_packets:
<^^malajenho^^> wepattack.c:141: aviso: declaracin implcita incompatible de la funcin interna strlen
<^^malajenho^^> wepattack.c:146: aviso: declaracin implcita incompatible de la funcin interna strlen
<^^malajenho^^> wepattack.c:151: aviso: declaracin implcita incompatible de la funcin interna strlen
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o jrib]  by ChanServ
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o jrib]  by jrib
<^^malajenho^^> gcc -fno-for-scope -c -D__LINUX_WLAN__ -D__I386__ -o rc4.o rc4.c
<^^malajenho^^> cc1: aviso: la opcin de lnea de comando "-fno-for-scope" es vlida para C++/ObjC++ pero no para C
<^^malajenho^^> gcc -fno-for-scope -c -D__LINUX_WLAN__ -D__I386__ -o wepfilter.o wepfilter.c
<^^malajenho^^> cc1: aviso: la opcin de lnea de comando "-fno-for-scope" es vlida para C++/ObjC++ pero no para C
<jrib> !paste | ^^malajenho^^
<^^malajenho^^> gcc -fno-for-scope -c -D__LINUX_WLAN__ -D__I386__ -o log.o log.c
<ubotu> ^^malajenho^^: pastebin is a service to post large texts so you don't flood the channel. The Ubuntu pastebin is at http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org (make sure you give us the URL for your paste - see also the #ubuntu channel topic)
<^^malajenho^^> mmm
<^^malajenho^^> sorry
<^^malajenho^^> :S
<^^malajenho^^> here you are
<^^malajenho^^> http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/17704/
<^^malajenho^^> it is in spanish, I hope you don't have problem
<jrib> it seems you are getting permission errors
<^^malajenho^^> ohh
<^^malajenho^^> with "sudo" I have the same problem
<jrib> don't run make with sudo
<^^malajenho^^> and how do u think I could to resolve the problem
<^^malajenho^^> ?
<jrib> can you start over and paste the errors you get with "LANGUAGE=en_US make"
<jrib> by start over, i mean delete the directory and untar it again
<^^malajenho^^> ok
<jrib> this thing is broken
<jrib> their Makefile has a typo
* jrib wonders why he just built wepattack
<^^malajenho^^> hi again
<^^malajenho^^> here is the paste
<^^malajenho^^> http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/17708/
<jrib> ^^malajenho^^: yes
<jrib> if you hilight me I'll notice you said something :)
<^^malajenho^^> what do u think?
<jrib> ^^malajenho^^: issue this command: chmod +x wlan
<^^malajenho^^> right
<jrib> ^^malajenho^^: now try 'make' again (it will fail)
<^^malajenho^^> ok
<jrib> ut pastebin the errors
<^^malajenho^^> http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/17709/
<jrib> ^^malajenho^^: ok, now you need to edit the Makefile
<^^malajenho^^> aha
<jrib> ^^malajenho^^: do you see the mistake?
<^^malajenho^^> mmm
<^^malajenho^^> wait
<^^malajenho^^> I'll see
<jrib> k
* jrib goes looking for food
<^^malajenho^^> I don't know exactly
<^^malajenho^^> cflags ?
<jrib> look at the error
<jrib> gcc: log.omodes.o: No such file or directory
<jrib> does that look funny?
<^^malajenho^^> aha
<^^malajenho^^> I have to install the library of log.omodes.o ?
<jrib> nah
<jrib> in your Makefile, you have a line like this:
<jrib> gcc  -o wepattack wepattack.o rc4.o wepfilter.o log.o\
<jrib> it should be:
<jrib> gcc  -o wepattack wepattack.o rc4.o wepfilter.o log.o \
<jrib> notice the space at the end
<^^malajenho^^> ahhh
<^^malajenho^^> ok
<^^malajenho^^> now I have a new message
<^^malajenho^^> I'll paste
<^^malajenho^^> http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/17711/
<jrib> i see no errors, you should have a file called "wepattack" now
<^^malajenho^^> sure
<^^malajenho^^> hehe
<^^malajenho^^> I'm a litle slept
<^^malajenho^^> ;)
<^^malajenho^^> jrib:  a lot of thanks
<^^malajenho^^> :D
<jrib> np
<^^malajenho^^> sorry for my english
<^^malajenho^^> i'm spanish
<^^malajenho^^> heheh
<jrib> cool, I'm portuguese.  We're basically neighbors
<^^malajenho^^> ohh
<^^malajenho^^> I'm galician
<ubuntu> ihahahahha
<ubuntu> someone here.
* jrib tells everyone to hide
<ubuntu> man
<ubuntu> you are here
<ubuntu> how are you going
* lurkan is away: Ausente por ahora.
<bababian> NICKNAME
* Lurkan_no_esta is away: Ausente por ahora.
* Lurkan_no_esta is away: off
* Lurkan_no_esta is away: Ausente por ahora.
* Lurkan_no_esta is back.
<tonyyarusso> lurkan: please turn off your away script in Ubuntu channels.
<leninz> can someone help me install wxJavaScript on ubuntu 6.06?
<leninz> please?
<someothernick> try #ubuntu
<leninz> can't anyone help me here?
<AndrewB> :)
<balrok> (j #centerim
<Tm_T> jaba: o/
<pochu> hey all!
<KennethP> @now
<ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: April 26 2007, 13:58:39 - Next meeting: MOTU in 6 hours 1 minute
<KennethP> @schedule
<ubotu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 26 Apr 20:00: MOTU | 26 Apr 21:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 01 May 15:00: Kernel Team | 01 May 18:00: Mozilla Team | 02 May 12:00: Edubuntu | 03 May 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team
<sharms> @schedule EST
<ubotu> Schedule for EST: 26 Apr 15:00: MOTU | 26 Apr 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 01 May 10:00: Kernel Team | 01 May 13:00: Mozilla Team | 02 May 07:00: Edubuntu | 03 May 11:00: Ubuntu Development Team
<PriceChild> Hey LjL
<sharms> is MOTU still scheduled for 16:00 UTC?
<LjL> hi PriceChild
<PriceChild> sharms, yes please :)
<pwnguin> @schedule CDT
<pwnguin> @schedule CST
<pwnguin> @schedule Chicago
<ubotu> Schedule for America/Chicago:
<pwnguin> i guess it pulls from the wiki
<PriceChild> @now chicago
<ubotu> Current time in America/Chicago: April 26 2007, 09:51:16 - No meetings scheduled
<KalleDK_Lap> @now denmark
<KalleDK_Lap> :(
<PriceChild> use a city
<KalleDK_Lap> @now copenhagen
<ubotu> Current time in Europe/Copenhagen: April 26 2007, 16:51:56 - No meetings scheduled
<KalleDK_Lap> :D
<KalleDK_Lap> @schedule copenhagen
<ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Copenhagen:
<KalleDK_Lap> !love
<ubotu> Love is like racing across the frozen tundra on a snowmobile which flips over, trapping you underneath. At night, the ice-weasels come.
<zorglu_> hehe i guess that 'no meeting' may the same whatever the location on earth :)
<rfdparker2002> @now stourbridge
<rfdparker2002> gah
<rfdparker2002> @now birmingham
<rfdparker2002> oh well
<ranf> hi
<KalleDK_Lap> !hi ranf
<ubotu> Sorry, I don't know anything about hi ranf - try searching on http://bots.ubuntulinux.nl/factoids.cgi
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o PriceChild]  by ChanServ
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o sharms]  by ChanServ
<PriceChild> whoops...
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o sharms]  by ChanServ
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-classroom:PriceChild] : The Ubuntu Open Week continues at 15:00UTC - be there! || SCHEDULE: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek - SCHEDULE CHANGES, PLEASE SEE THE TIMETABLE || RULES: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules Please respect them || LOGS: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs || Ask questions and chat in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, "QUESTION: <insert question here>/cs o || CURRENT SESSION: Ubuntu Women - Belinda Lopez
<PriceChild> Now where is our host? :)
<elkbuntu> she seems MIA
<mc44> elkbuntu can do it instead :p
<elkbuntu> if she's not here in the next 5, i might have to
<jono> elkbuntu: :)
* elkbuntu pulls up monday's notes Just In Case
* Belutz cheers for elkbuntu 
<nalioth> mc44: looks like a good candidate
<Tm_T> elkbuntu: whooo \o/
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o elkbuntu]  by ChanServ
<elkbuntu> Ok, we're currently missing our scheduled hostess, so I will fill in for her
<elkbuntu> My name is Melissa Draper, I'm from Australia, and I've been involved with ubuntu for around 18 months
<elkbuntu> Ubuntu Women was initially started by Vid Ayer and others.  I Understand that Sabdfl and Canonical helped register the domain and get resources in place.
<elkbuntu> For a while we were a group of helpers with no leaders.  Several folks stepped up to get the group moving and now we have several projects that we are working on.
<elkbuntu> our scheduled host was one of the ones who helped get the project moving again :)
<elkbuntu> Anyway, the biggest question we get is "Why is there an Ubuntu-Women Project?"
<elkbuntu> Some believe "Integration by Separation" is A Bad Thing but unfortunately it is necessary. It is not something I ever intended to get involved with, but I am now :)
<elkbuntu> Many of our members came from other areas first and then we realized this is an area that still needs work to simply help level the playing field in Ubuntu and within many other F/LOSS projects.
<elkbuntu> Unfortunately, even within Ubuntu, several female members have reported problems on mailing lists, within their loco teams and especially on IRC. . .
<elkbuntu> Belinda actually posted something like this to a forum: ". . . when we start seeing the "I just got my tech skills insulted because of my gender" or "because I'm a man they just assumed I knew nothing technical about Linux/SysAdmin/prgramming/etc." post by men then we won't need women's groups."
<elkbuntu> There are many technically capable women in the group and within F/LOSS, so it can be very frustrating when someone challenges your tech skills simply because "you?re a girl"
<elkbuntu> And when we started sharing our experiences in IT, F/LOSS and even Ubuntu we realized that it is still happening.
<elkbuntu> Even if you personally have experienced it or seen it happen, it can be very frustrating to see others go through bad experiences.  So the UW Project is also here to help in that area.
<elkbuntu> Many of us joined the UW project because we found a welcoming group of folks who were open to questions and people with similar experiences as ours.
<elkbuntu> At this point, i run out of notes, so I will start taking questions
<elkbuntu> If there are any...
<elkbuntu> <zorglu_> QUESTION: dont you feel that by putting women in a special group, you actually follow a gender discrimination ?
<elkbuntu> zorglu_, I used to feel that way, but then I came to realise that it wasnt 'putting women in a special group', but rather providing an outlet for discussion, mentoring, etc
<elkbuntu> The group is more about sharing experiences, good and bad, and feeling comfortable and not along in the F/LOSS world
<elkbuntu> When 95+% of people around you are male, it can be *very* lonely
<elkbuntu> <richb> QUESTION: You mentioned problems with IRC, do you feel this is a problem with IRC itself (also mailing lists), in that essentially they are anonymous and make it difficult to police bad behaviour?
<elkbuntu> It's not IRC exclusive by any means. Anywhere people communicate openly is a problem area
<elkbuntu> When guys are used to being around guys, and remember, there's <5% women in alot of IT areas, they get used to 'being guys' and often are quite mean, insulting and insensitive without intending it
<elkbuntu> <jjstwerff> QUESTION: should there be more ways to enforce the Code of Conduct on IRC? Like quicker banning people insulting women?
<elkbuntu> The ways are already there, but the problem is identifying the problem to start with. Often women don't speak up, and leave instead, so they dont ahve to put up with 'Oh, you're making a huge deal out of nothing' or 'Can't you take a joke?'
<elkbuntu> <jrib> QUESTION: since the creation of this group do you feel like things are getting better?
<elkbuntu> I cant really tell. U-W has effectively been around for the duration of my involvement in Ubuntu, so I don't know for sure what it was like beforehand
<elkbuntu> However, I hope that it has made some women more comfortable, having people they can relate to in an easy to find place.
<elkbuntu> <zorglu_> QUESTION: is there a ubuntu-men ?
<bababian> QUESTION: will the UW team have some focus on children also? I mean spreading the true UBUNTU idea among the once perceived-to-be disadvantaged group?
<elkbuntu> No. But feel free to make one.
<elkbuntu> bababian, in #ubuntu-classroom-chat please
<elkbuntu> bababian, I've been tossing up with the idea of #ubuntu-youth, where younger Ubunteros can go to find people their own age to geek out with.
<elkbuntu> <jrib> QUESTION: can men help by particiating in the group somehow?
<elkbuntu> Definately. Providing they're polite, helpful and dont exhibit the types of behaviours that Ubuntu-Women is there to couteract
<elkbuntu> <luis_lopez> QUESTION: Any plans to have ubuntu-women website in languages other than english?
<elkbuntu> It would be great. Translation efforts are always welcome in every part of the Ubuntu community ;)
<elkbuntu> Belutz> QUESTION: will the UW team make an ubuntu theme for women?
<elkbuntu> Alot of people seem to think all women want is pink and flowers. This is not the point of Ubuntu-Women, or LinuxChix or any $distro-Women groups. It is about social attitude.
<elkbuntu> However, there are already feminine themes on gnome-look.org and kde-look.org ;)
<elkbuntu> <richb> QUESTION: You mentioned problems with people doubting technical skills based on gender, do you think positive promotion would be worthwhile or cause more problems?
<elkbuntu> I think it would definately be a good thing. One of the reasons I got involved with Ubuntu-Women, is as a role-model. I am a woman who is active and relatively successful in the community, and if it can inspire women, and give women a face, them I'm happy to do that
<elkbuntu> <Sanne> QUESTION: It's important for women and men to speak up against offending behavior against women. However, mostly it is unintended, so the one speaking up should make sure to not also offend, because that just gets up defenses. How can we make sure this doesn't happen?
<elkbuntu> I think it is extremely important. 'nipping it in the bud' for a lack of better definition is the best way to stop any problem before it blooms into a disaster
<elkbuntu> Negative reinforcement, when guys overstep the line, is one of the most effective ways we have to hammer the concept home
<elkbuntu> <Belutz> QUESTION: is UW team is a regional team or worldwide team? will there be a regional team for UW? or do you prefer it to be just a worldwide team?
<elkbuntu> It is a world-wide team, At the moment, regional activities etc are probably better done through regional LinuxChix chapters
<elkbuntu> <_dennis_> QUESTION: what's the estimated percentages of female ubuntu users
<elkbuntu> andreas lloyd gathered some statistics, as did i (still unreleased unfortunately), but the number of people who identify as women in the community are around 2.4%
<elkbuntu> <zorglu_> QUESTION: would you like to add a close in a code of conduct, specific to women ?
<elkbuntu> I do not believe this is necessary. The code of conduct already covers respect etc, and that is what this boils down to.
<elkbuntu> <bababian> QUESTION: Do you have many female team members from countries like China, South Africa, and other developing countries?
<elkbuntu> I dont know personally where everyone is from, but afaik Vid Ayer is indian
<elkbuntu> <Belutz> QUESTION: has any men compained about the existence of UW team?
<elkbuntu> Plenty. They're usually the type that 'dont get it' and hence the reason why there does need to be a team
<elkbuntu> <Lynoure> QUESTION: I'm a woman but never thought or felt that being one or other sex made any difference for me in IT, as the results I feel very confused about UW. However, I feel strongly about equality. Is there some way I can help or at least not harm without getting into UW as such?
<elkbuntu> Lynoure, I am, well was with you in this mind at one point. We are the lucky ones
<elkbuntu> As I said before, the main reason I did get involved is because I can be a positive rolemodel. I'm not a shrinking violet and it's good to show women who've been unfairly treated that they can be brave.
<elkbuntu> I think the best way you can help indirectly, as can anyone here watching this, is to speak up when someone steps out of line. Negative reinforcement is a powerful tool.
<elkbuntu> <Belutz> QUESTION: how do you feel about women that use computers only to do a particular jobs done, sometimes they think computer is windows and windos is computer, there are a lot of women who think like that in my country
<elkbuntu> Belutz, I know more men like this than I do women.
<elkbuntu> The problem is Windows having the majority mindshare, not women being unaware/uneducated.
<elkbuntu> Nightrose> Qn: Where do you think is the point groups like UW and linuxchix are no longer needed?
<elkbuntu> When women are appropriately represented in the IT industry
<elkbuntu> When women don't feel chastised by their workmates and bosses
<elkbuntu> When women are on a fair pay scale
<elkbuntu> All those things are goals that we need to achieve before the mindset of inequality is filtered out
<elkbuntu> Tm_T> elkbuntu: COMMENT: I think it's cultural thing to "teatch" that tecnology is for boys only in some cases (sure it's ridicolous)
<elkbuntu> Believe it or not, I used to get that when I was younger. It's a deeper cultural issue than I think we'll see surpassed in our lifetimes, but it is the basis of the problem.
<elkbuntu> <Belutz> QUESTION: I also find that women who study computer science in my country still think the same, do you blame the curriculum or the women who don't want to explore the world of computer science?
<elkbuntu> I blame the curriculum, the media, etc. It is nothing to do with women. Maybe they just stand out more to you becuase they're already different?
<elkbuntu> richb> QUESTION: There seems a popular perception that men assume that women will find Linux "hard to use" or worse still attach preconditions like "If Gnome had a pink theme, more women would use it!", obviously this is nonsense, is there an easy way to fix this perception?
<elkbuntu> Convert grandma to Ubuntu ;)
<elkbuntu> As i've been saying, this is the underlying issue. Women are not seen as equal, and hence are discriminated, discouraged and chastised.
<elkbuntu> <scresawn> QUESTION: Are there efforts by UW to showcase the technical competence of UW members? Wouldn't that help to address one of the problems here--that of a perceived gender/technology gap?
<elkbuntu> We would love to, and I believe someone in the group did surveys. It'd be interesting to see the results of that.
<elkbuntu> <bababian> QUESTION: will there be difference of mentality between geeks among women and non-geeks among women in terms of their attitude towards FOSS?
<elkbuntu> bababian, Do you mean geeks are more problematic than other people?
<elkbuntu> I think this is equally a stereotype. Many perceive geeks as the fat loner who's never had a girlfriend, or the horny teenage geek.
<elkbuntu> stereotypes are dangerous no matter when or to whom they're applied
<bababian> bababian>elkbuntu : i mean their understanding of the FOSS culture
<elkbuntu> I'm still not sure what you're asking. Are you trying to ask if geeky women have more problems than other women?
<elkbuntu> The problem is across the board in terms of gender problems, discrimination etc.
<elkbuntu> <Belutz> QUESTION: so how do you suggest to educate women about FLOSS?
<bababian> bababian>elkbuntu: i think women who tinker with tech would know more about the FOSS issues than their nontech counterparts do, in terms of having a receptive mind towards Linux/Ubuntu
<elkbuntu> The same way you educate a man.
<elkbuntu> bababian, likewise with men. Geeky men know Foss more than non-geeky men.
<elkbuntu> any more questions?
<elkbuntu> we still have 10 minutes :)
<gnomefreak> may i?
<elkbuntu> sure
<gnomefreak> elkbuntu: do you expect the women geek or non geek be treated the same as men geek or non geek? I treat everyone same but this is one question ive seen beaten around but never asked to point)
<Toma-> QUESTION: elkbuntu- whats the most attractive part about ubuntu that drew you and like minded women towards it?
<elkbuntu> Toma-, the same things that drew the men to it.
<Toma-> I was after the FOSS women :D but hey, if thats what floats your boat :)
<elkbuntu> gnomefreak, I expect everyone to be treated equally. I expect the asian geeks and non-geeks to be treated the same as the american geeks and non-geeks, and so forth.
<Toma-> Basically leading to my QUESTION: Whats the best way to sway a not-so-computer savvy girl to Ubuntu?
<elkbuntu> Toma-, the same things you'd be swayed by. expecting a women to need a different type of computing environment, color, etc is part of the prooblem
<elkbuntu> Toma-, we're all geeks. I like linux because of what it is, not by some girly feature
<elkbuntu> the same as you dont need racecars on the desktop to like the system
<elkbuntu> or so forth
<elkbuntu> <zorglu_> QUESTION: so women should be treated as anybody else without special consideration for their gender ?
<elkbuntu> *YES* that is *exactly* what we mean
<zorglu_> so why a special group for them ?
<Toma-> i was thking that too :(
<elkbuntu> when you take a characteristic of a someone and make fun of it, it's not nice, it is not respectful. making jokes for about women is like making jokes about someone's race, religion, big nose etc. you treat people as you expect to be treated. you do not tease their characteristics
<elkbuntu> the reason we need ubuntu women is because *that is not happening*
<elkbuntu> when it does happen, we'll be fine
<zorglu_> you mean this is happening more to women than to other minorities ?
<elkbuntu> zorglu_, it is happening to every minority. however, the problem with female sterotyping is it exists as a sub-problem of most of the other minorities as well
<zorglu_> ok
<sharms> @schedule now
<Syk1> until my daughter (and I) can feel at ease in the Linux community then we'll appreciate groups like this. For now, an Ubuntu girl / woman is still a novel concept.
<elkbuntu> ok, that's all we have time for... lets see who is up next
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o sharms]  by ChanServ
<sharms> @now
<ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: April 26 2007, 16:01:37 - Next meeting: MOTU in 3 hours 58 minutes
<sharms> There we go
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-classroom:PriceChild] : The Ubuntu Open Week continues at 15:00UTC - be there! || SCHEDULE: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek - SCHEDULE CHANGES, PLEASE SEE THE TIMETABLE || RULES: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules Please respect them || LOGS: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs || Ask questions and chat in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, "QUESTION: <insert question here>/cs o || CURRENT SESSION: MOTU - Steven Harms and Adrien Cunin
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o Adri2000]  by sharms
<Adri2000> hi!
<sharms> Welcome.  We are going to do a presentation on the MOTU
<sharms> Adri2000: do you want to cover asking questions?
<Adri2000> yep, I will take the questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<Adri2000> prefix them with "QUESTION:" please
<sharms> Ok, well lets get this ball rolling, as we need as many of you to start working with us asap :)
<sharms> I'm Steven Harms (www.sharms.org/blog), and work with the MOTU on various tasks.
<Adri2000> and I'm Adrien Cunin, a simple MOTU :)
<sharms> I am a member of the MOTU Media Team, which never has a shortage of things
<sharms> to work on.
<sharms> I am also a member of the bugs team, and an official ubuntu member.
<sharms> If you are not familiar with the way teams work etc, we basically all collaberate at www.launchpad.net
<sharms> That is where all the bugs go, where eventually source will go, and planning etc really happens
<sharms> Also if you like anything you hear here, I highly recommend sticking around for the next session "Patching Packages" with Pitti.
<sharms> At 19:00 UTC there is a "bug triaging" presentation also, which is a huge part of what I do.
<sharms> With our huge userbase, there is never a shortage of bugs.
<sharms> If you are not familiar with the way teams work etc, we basically all collaberate at www.launchpad.netMOTU stands for 'Masters Of The Universe' which originates from the Universe component, which holds the biggest amount of our packages.
<sharms> Master of the Universe is also a he-man reference for those old enough to remember
<elliotjhug> .3
<elliotjhug> *sorry*
<sharms> Now we have all downloaded packages if we are running Ubuntu, and these packages are stored in repositories
<sharms> This is where we come in
<sharms> There are various repositories ubuntu offers:  'main' and 'restricted' are supported by Canonical, 'universe' and 'multiverse' by the community.
<sharms> 'main' and 'restricted' hold 5167 packages today and 'universe' plus 'multiverse' 16237.
<sharms> One of the common misconceptions that people have about contributing to any form of Linux is that it seems that everyone is already working on everything.
<sharms> This is not true, and there is a TON of opportunity to give a hand
<sharms> As you can imagine, 16,000 packages is a lot to handle
<sharms> Also the MOTU team is not secretive, and we are not the tron guy hiding behind 20 monitors
<sharms> MOTU is extremely easy to talk to, and you can get involved at #ubuntu-motu
<sharms> So what does a MOTU do?
<sharms> As a MOTU you're maintaining packages.
<sharms> In MOTU there isn't some big "this is my package you can't work on it" issue
<sharms> MOTU's work where they are needed, whenever they want
<sharms> We have people
<sharms>  * taking care only of 'their own packages'
<sharms>  * working together with others on a set of packages in a team
<sharms>  * fixing lots of different packages
<sharms> (* working on no packages at all)
<sharms> If you belong to the last category, this might be your first step in the Ubuntu Development Community
<sharms> The really important thing to remember is we want, and *need* your help
<sharms> So if you are into Linux, you can help improvie it right here right now, give back, and help make great software
<sharms> So how do I become a MOTU?
<sharms> That's very easy.
<sharms> ou basically contribute to the team's efforts, either by packaging a new piece of software or by helping with fixing / updating / merging existing packages.
<sharms> One of the easiest ways to get involved is to start reviewing the bug reports, and eventually you will come across very easy to solve bugs that nobody has gotten around to.
<sharms> This is great experience, and if you get stuck you can check out our docs at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU and if that fails, just ask someone in #ubuntu-motu
<sharms> As a MOTU hopeful you're not allowed yet to upload to the archive yourself, but you can ask other team members to sponsor the upload for you.
<sharms> When working with MOTUs, if you don't have upload access, you can also provide them with debdiffs, but that is probably a better topic for the patching packages talk
<sharms> which I really recommend people attend, that is the first step
<sharms> To get a package sponsored, we have a very easy to use process in place: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SponsorshipProcess
<sharms> After a while, when you've become more comfortable with packaging, the processes and you've worked with a couple of people, you will hear that people are tired of uploading your packages and you should be able to do so yourself
<sharms> It's easy to see that it's not just a matter of technically abilty, but it's also a matter of teamwork and trust
<sharms> Once your mentors and people of the MOTU team are happy with you, they will tell you to apply to become a MOTU yourself.
<sharms> For that you write an application mail to the MOTU Council and if they're happy with you, they'll approve you.
<sharms> I highly recommend anyone who is on the edge, who is thinking about giving back to Ubuntu, checks out the process to get going:
<sharms> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Hopeful/Recruitment
<sharms> That is where everyone starts pretty much, no matter what your aspiration
<sharms> Things the team does:
<sharms> We work on Bugs, just to put some numbers into the discussion:
<sharms>  * 18484 bugs in Universe/Multiverse    (96084 in Ubuntu total)
<sharms>  * 10380 closed bugs Universe/Multiverse (56612 closed in Ubuntu total)
<sharms> While the numbers look scary, here's a very good thing about working with the MOTUs: you're not alone.
<sharms> If you try to fix a bug in a package you have:
<sharms>  1) Fellow MOTU members
<sharms> 2) The Debian package maintainer
<sharms> 3) The upstream (which is the actual author(s))
<sharms> All of which you can pull on to get help on any issue
<sharms> Working on bugs is very rewarding: sometimes it's just a one line fix, or it will already be fixed upstream and just needs to be pasted into the current code, and you make a ton of people (including yourself!) happy
<sharms> Motu Teams
<sharms> MOTU has formed a huge bunch of subteams already:
<sharms> * Games Team
<sharms> * Media Team
<sharms> * Science Team
<sharms> * Photo Team
<sharms> * UncommonProgrammingLanguages team
<sharms> and a lot of other teams, which started in Universe, but now are working across the whole distro, the Mono team is a good example for that.
<sharms> If you see a team that doesn't fit your needs, all you need to do is grab a few MOTUs and get one created on launchpad
<sharms> It's all about working together, making a great distro even better, and having fun while doing it
<sharms> Transitions! That's usually an easy way to get involved.
<sharms> In order to use a new technology consistently across the whole archive, we sometimes need to change several hundreds of packages.
<sharms> This is gratifying work also, as it's sometimes easy to do and nice to do this within a team. Good examples of this were:
<sharms> * the switch from python2.3 to python2.4 (as a default)
<sharms> * the use of gcc4
<sharms> * the transition to use Xorg
<sharms> We used to have  H U G E   working lists on the wiki, nowadays we often use Launchpad to keep track of these
<Xander21c> Hello
<sharms> One of the questions we get the most is "How do I get X package in?"
<sharms> Lots of software is packaged already, but your personal pet project might be missing still.
<Toma-> Xander21c: chit chat + Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<sharms> This is a gratifying task, as you make many users happy by providing igh-quality software in the archive.
<sharms> or even high-quality
<sharms> All NEW packages go through a review process, which currently happens on http://revu.tauware.de - this might change in the near future
<sharms> If you want to know how to get a package in, we have a wiki page for that: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Processes/REVU
<sharms> eviewing is a great way to mentor, but also to learn, which leads us to our next point.
<sharms> Reviewing
<sharms> One of the things with MOTU is that people seem to be overwhelmed at first
<sharms> There is a lot of documentation out there, but really it isn't rocket science (although I believe laserjock is a rocket scientist)
<sharms> One thing we do to help people along is provide a mentor (think Karate Kid style)
<sharms> We're doing huge efforts at helping people get up to scratch on packaging, especially #ubuntu-motu on irc.freenode.net is always buzzing and somebody is always awake to answer *your* packaging question.
<sharms> But mentoring also happens on our ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com mailing list, in private chats, by doing reviews of packages and patches or via mail.
<sharms> I personally went through the mentoring process during the beginning, and it was very helpful to get some questions answered that were not totally obvious to me
<sharms> Don't hesitate to approach us, join the Master of the Universe today
<sharms> The team is also working out details to refine the process and make it easier for MOTU hopefuls and future mentors.
<sharms> If you read planet.ubuntu.com, you have probably seen my blog (www.sharms.org/blog) entry on mentoring, and that is getting good responses
<sharms> and we are always looking to improve.
<sharms> e'll have a session at UDS
<sharms> about that:
<sharms> https://blueprints.beta.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/better-mentoring
<sharms> so if you're in Sevilla at that time, join in, if not add your ideas to the wiki page. We'll also work on getting a Mentoring mailing list ready.
<sharms> Merges
<sharms> In the beginning of each release cycle we merge our efforts with those of the Debian maintainers.
<PriceChild> For everyone not on the launchpad beta, please use the following link: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/better-mentoring
<sharms> So this is what we currently do for Gutsy.
<sharms> One thing people need to understand is that we are deeply connected with debian
<sharms> Almost every package we have comes from them first
<sharms> So at the beginning of the release cycle we take their packages, and "import" them into our repositories, which is called merging
<sharms> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Merging and
<sharms> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/School/Merging-and-Syncing
<sharms> are great references on the subject
<sharms> Basically debian makes our lives easy, and we like to utilize their work as much as possible, and in turn contribute back
<sharms> MOTU School
<sharms> In the spirit of the Ubuntu's Open Week we already had some interesting MOTU School sessions: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/School
<sharms> and I am aware we have a bunch of questions, so let me just say
<sharms> Documentation - we are always working on this and trying to make to easy to understand
<sharms> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Documentation
<sharms> Ok Adri2000 want to start Q&A?
<Adri2000> let's go
<Adri2000> <zorglu_> (for later) QUESTION: ffmpeg needs to be recompiled from source to get mp3 support, what about having a mp3 enable version in multiverse with other mp3 codes ?
<sharms> I would say the first step in that direction would be a file a bug with as much information as you can possibly gather, and then join #ubuntu-motu and get someone from the media team to take a look
<Adri2000> and it's a license problem, so it's finally up to the archive admin
<sharms> Just be patience waiting for a response in #ubuntu-motu, we are not as fast as mcdonalds, but are probably faster than watching water boil
<sharms> next
<Adri2000> <Toma-> QUESTION: If theres a bug in a package, youve posted the problem and the solution on launchpad, and still the maintainer hasnt fixed it, what can you do?
<Adri2000> we haven't a maintainer for each package in ubuntu
<sharms> That is an awesome question, I bet a lot of people have the same one
<sharms> The best thing to do there is: Get involved!
<Toma-> (Its in the kernel :))
<Adri2000> ah, that's different
<sharms> Kernel is generally not motu, we do the 15,000+ extra packages
<sharms> next
<Adri2000> <pwnguin> QUESTION: Debian has a process to orphan packages that have seen no attention recently. With no ownership of packages, or any commitments to quality, what process does MOTU have to retire unmaintained pacakges?
<Adri2000> we can request a removal from the archive
<sharms> I would say first and foremost, we do have an extreme commitment to quality
<sharms> We have release cycles, and we work through those, along with "hug" days to get as much done on items that might not get as much attention
<sharms> If debian drops the package also, we generally do unless there are other circumstances
<sharms> so there are several tiers of eyes that take care of that
<sharms> next
<Adri2000> <j1mc> QUESTION: are motu members starting to feel overwhelmed with the number of bug reports that are being submitted?  Do they feel that it's getting to be too much, or is it still manageable?
<sharms> It is still manageable, but we would love to get more people to help
<sharms> That is why we are here today, because it is important to get as many people involved
<sharms> When talented people get less work, that is when more innovation can happen
<sharms> and really push us into critical-mass
<sharms> next
<Adri2000> <txwikinger> QUESTION: What will be interesting upcoming "transistion" and when are they planned to occur?
<sharms> We are still waiting to flesh out details of gutsy after the UDS, so its hard to say.  Adri2000 have anything to ad?
<Adri2000> g77 transition
<Adri2000> it's in the email "Opening development for Gutsy Gibbon"
<Adri2000> so that's at least one transition for gutsy :)
<sharms> Just to verify with everyone, g77 doesn't sound like much fun, but if you stick around #ubuntu-motu you will see items like that come up
<Adri2000> next?
<sharms> yup
<Adri2000> <PriceChild> QUESTION: Any news on revu2?
<Adri2000> I don't think it is actively being developed now
<Adri2000> because we will eventually use launchpad instead of revu
<sharms> Really we want to keep the scope of this talk to people new to MOTU.  If you know what revu2 is, then you just need to hang in #ubuntu-motu
<sharms> next
<Adri2000> <Loic> QUESTION: How do one go about patching a motu universe package for Feisty since feisty has already been released, if the fix (missing dependency in debian/control) is trivial, without having to wait for gusty repos to be open?
<sharms> Well first, it has to be a nasty bug to be fixed to make it into feisty
<sharms> and definitely nothing to do with changing features etc
<sharms> But we have a team just for security fixes, which would be very important
<pitti> Loic: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/SRU describes that process
<Adri2000> you'll have to do an SRU, Stable Release Update: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Processes/SRU
<sharms> There we go :) next
<Adri2000> <elliotjhug> QUESTION: What's the best way to get a mentor?
<sharms> When I got a mentor, I just followed the wiki page, and then I found their nick and starting talking on IRC
<sharms> when I ran into issues, I tried to figure it out, if I couldn't they were there to help me
<Adri2000> or just ask in #ubuntu-motu, on the mailing-list :)
<Adri2000> the wiki page is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Mentors
<sharms> MOTU members are a big fan of trying to figure out things from documentation first
<sharms> but we can definitely help you if the docs are confusing
<sharms> next
<Adri2000> <MattJ> QUESTION: I'm the developer of a new program. Are there guides on building a package from scratch for Ubuntu, as opposed to patching? Also, would I become the maintainer of my package?
<Adri2000> first question: yes, we have the packaging guide
<sharms> We don't have concrete maintainers, but you can chose to just work on your package
<sharms> http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/packagingguide/C/index.html
<sharms> that is the first and best step right there
<sharms> I would also recommend taking a similar package and looking at their source for packaging
<sharms> next
<Adri2000> <Toma-> QUESTION: What if alot of bugs in a package can be fixed by installing the latest release in debian unstable? Is there a chance to get it updated in feisty? eg, 2.16.0 --> 2.16.1
<Adri2000> not in feisty
<sharms> next
<sharms> 1 more minute!
<Adri2000> you'll have to take out the appropriate patches from debian
<Adri2000> <zorglu_> [18:54]  <zorglu_> QUESTION: revu has been known as a bottleneck, what are the plan to speed it up ?
<Adri2000> but that's revu again :)
<zorglu_> Adri2000: yep you can skip it :)
<sharms> ok well please, everyone join us at #ubuntu-motu
<sharms> hang out, get a feel for the people
<Toma-> Thanks!
* pitti rings the schoolbell
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-classroom:PriceChild] : The Ubuntu Open Week continues at 15:00UTC - be there! || SCHEDULE: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek - SCHEDULE CHANGES, PLEASE SEE THE TIMETABLE || RULES: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules Please respect them || LOGS: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs || Ask questions and chat in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, "QUESTION: <insert question here>/cs o || CURRENT SESSION: Patching Packages - Martin Pitt
<sharms> Thank you very much, stick around for Pitti's talk.  He is awesome and can get into some of the technical, nitty-gritty
<Adri2000> thanks everybody for coming! :)
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o pitti]  by PriceChild
<pitti> sharms: thanks :)
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o sharms]  by sharms
<MattJ> Thanks all :)
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o Adri2000]  by Adri2000
<pitti> welcome to my hands-on training about patching packages, an inevitable tool for new developers
<pitti> as a warning, this will be the very same talk that I did on Tuesday
<pitti> so if you were in that, this won't be particularly interesting
<pitti> if anyone has any question, or I'm totally uncomprehensible (sorry for my English, I'm German), please do not hesitate to interrupt and ask *immediately*
<pitti> Also, don't bother trying to take notes, we'll sort that out at the end. You can fully concentrate on the discussion and examples.
<pitti> who here would learn about patching packages? (quick audience straw-poll)
<elliotjhug> me
<rrittenhouse> mememe :P
<sampbar> me!
<el_ericho> me
<pitti> that sounds more than manageable :)
<sampbar> (not that i have any packages to patch)
<pitti> Let's begin with a little bit of history:
<pitti> == Why use separate patches ==
<pitti> In earlier times, people just applied patches inline (i. e. directly in the source code tree). However, this makes it very hard to extract patches later to modify them, send them upstream, etc. Also this means that new upstream versions are a pain, since they generate a lot of rejections when applying the package diff.gz to them.
<pitti> With split-out patches it is much easier to send them upstream, keep track of them, develop them, etc., since you always see which changes belong together.
<pitti> The ideal state is an unmodified tarball from upstream, plus clean and separate patches, plus the packaging bits in debian/. That means that lsdiff -z <sourcepackage>.diff.gz only contains debian/.
<pitti> oh, btw, I assume that you already know what a source package is and how it looks like in general
<pitti> The first attempts to split-out patches were pretty trivial: storing patches in debian/patches/, and adding some patch/patch -R snippets to debian/rules. This worked for small patches, but provided no tools for editing these patches, updating them for new upstream versions, etc.
<pitti> (we will see why that is painful)
<pitti> Thus several standard patch systems were created which are easy to deploy and provide tools for patch juggling and editing.
<pitti> <bullgard4> pitti: QUESTION: Will you speak about patching a module for everybodys use or for one'own use?
<pitti> that doesn't matter much
<pitti> of course packages that will be uploaded need to be more strict and cleaner
<pitti> but it's still useful if you personally do a patch and just want to send it to someone, or keep it around for a while
<pitti> What I would like to do now is to introduce the most common patch systems and show some hands-on demo how to add a new patch and how to edit one. For this, I will point at a source package from the current feisty archive, quickly explain the patch system, and show how to apply some (braindead) modifications to it. I recommend you to do the same steps in a terminal, so that you get a feeling for the process and can immediately ask questions.
<pitti> is everyone fine with this approach?
<Elephantman> bye :)
<elliotjhug> sounds good
<rrittenhouse> sure
<Elephantman> (sorry, amsg)
* sampbar isnt on his ubuntu machine :(
<pitti> sampbar: that will make it kind of tricky; well, just listen then and do the steps later according to the documentation and irc log
<pitti> If you want to try the stuff yourself, please do the following commands (on feisty) as preparation:
<pitti>   sudo apt-get install dpatch cdbs quilt patchutils devscripts
<pitti>   apt-get source cron udev pmount gnome-volume-manager ed xterm
<pitti>   wget http://people.ubuntu.com/~pitti/scripts/dsrc-new-patch
<pitti>   chmod 755 dsrc-new-patch
<pitti> I deliberately picked the smallest packages I could find
* pitti waits a bit for people to do the preparations; any questions so far?
<Toma-> Hows the weather? :)
<sampbar> Pitti: good plan :)
<pitti> Toma-: splendid here :) (but please stay on topic)
<pitti> please make a noise when you are ready
<ranf> done
<elliotjhug> done
<Toma-> Ok, can you upload patches to launchpad? Is that a good way of getting it applied?
<Loic> done
<pitti> Toma-: later, please queue in #chat
<Toma-> ok!
<pitti> == udev: separate patches, but no standard patch system ==
<pitti> erm, sorry, scratch that ^
<pitti> == cron: inline patches ==
<pitti> No patch system at all, nothing much to say about this.  You directly edit the files in the source tree. This is convenient for a simple and quick change, but will bite back for new upstream versions (see above) and is inconvenient for submitting patches upstream, or reviewing for merges.
* el_ericho is ready
<pitti> just because all patches you apply will end up as a giant big mess in the diff.gz
<pitti> if you do 'lsdiff -z <package>.diff.gz' and you see changes which are not in debian/, then you probably have such a package
<pitti> so, I think I do not need to say anything else about cron, unless someone has a question
<pitti> == udev: separate patches, but no standard patch system ==
<pitti> This case is the most complicated one since you have to do all the hard work manually. In order to make you understand what a patch system does, and to give you a fallback method that will *always* work with any patch system, I handle this first.
<pitti> The good news is that you will seldomly be required to actually do this procedure, since for many packages there are nice tools which make things a charm.
<pitti> The bad news is that it may seem utterly complicated for people who never did it before, but I would like you to understand what's actually going on behind the curtains of the tools.
<pitti> So please do not desperate if you do not fully understand it at first; there's written documentation and you can always take your time to grok it.
<pitti> The general approach is:
<pitti> 1. copy the clean source tree to a temporary directory /tmp/old
<pitti> 2. apply all patches up to the one you want to edit; if you want to create a new patch, apply all existing ones (this is necessary since in general patches depend on previous patches)
<pitti> 3. copy the whole source tree again: cp -a /tmp/old /tmp/new
<pitti> 4. go into /tmp/new, do your modifications
<pitti> 5. go back into /tmp and generate the patch with
<pitti>   diff -Nurp old new > mypatchname.patch
<pitti> 6. move the newly generated patch to <original source dir>/debian/patches/mypatchname.patch
<pitti> in general we want the following diff options:
<pitti> -N -> include new files
<pitti> -u -> unified patches (context diffs are ugly)
<pitti> -r -> recursive
<pitti> -p -> bonus, you can see the name of the affected function in the patch
<pitti> does anyone have a question about the principle method?
<pitti> ok, some hands-on example
<pitti> open a shell, ready your fingers :)
<pitti> udev example 1, let's create a new patch 92_penguins.patch:
<pitti>   cd /whereever/you/unpacked/the/source/udev-108
<pitti> -> now we are in our original source tree where we want to add a new patch
<pitti>   cp -a . /tmp/old
<pitti> -> create a copy of the clean sources as reference tree
<pitti>   pushd /tmp/old
<pitti> -> go to /tmp/old; 'pushd' to remember the previous directory, so that we can go back conveniently
<bullgard4> pitti: I am ready.
<pitti>   debian/rules patch
<pitti> -> apply all already existing patches; of course we could use the 'patch' program to do it manually, but since debian/rules already knows how to do it, let's use it. The actual name for the patch target varies, I have seen the following ones so far: patch, setup, apply-patches, unpack, patch-stamp. You have to look in debian/rules how it is called.
<pitti>   cp -a . /tmp/new; cd ../new
<pitti> -> copies our patched reference tree to our new work directory /tmp/new where we can hack in
<pitti> that's the preparatory part
<pitti> let's do a braindead modification now
<pitti>   sed -i 's/Linux/Penguin/g' README
<pitti> -> changes the README file; of course you can use your favourite editor, but I wanted to keep my examples copy&pasteable
<pitti> and now we create a patch between the reference and our new tree:
<pitti>   cd ..
<pitti> -> go back to /tmp, i. e. where our reference tree (old) and hacked tree (new) is located
<pitti>   diff -Nurp old new > 95_penguins.patch
<pitti> -> generate the patch (Ignore the 'recursive directory loop' warnings)
<pitti>   popd
<pitti> -> now you should be back in your original source tree (when you did the pushd)
<pitti>   rm -rf /tmp/old /tmp/new
<pitti> -> clean up the temporary trees
<pitti>   mv /tmp/95_penguins.patch debian/patches
<pitti> -> move the patch from /tmp to the source tree's patch directory, where it belongs.
<pitti> *uff* :)
<pitti> Now take a look at your shiny new debian/patches/95_penguins.patch.
<pitti> after that, if you do 'debian/rules patch', you'll see that the patch applies cleanly; please do 'debclean' afterwards to unapply the patches and get back a pristine source tree
<pitti> so, obviously that's not the end of the wisdom, but if you do these steps a couple of times, you should get a feeling for how to create the most complicated patch conceivable
<pitti> so this procedure is the life safer if anything else fails
<pitti> questions so far?
<pitti> are you guys still with me? Am I too fast? (cry and slow me down if so)
* pitti wonders whether he managed to kill his complete audience now
<pitti> but promised, from now on it will get really easy :)
<sampbar> im still here but im not doing the commands
<pitti> <ranf> COMMENT: debclean complains about missing build dependencies
<pitti> ranf: ah, right; you can use 'fakeroot debian/rules clean' to work around that, or just apt-get install them
<ranf> k
<pitti> Since this case happens pretty often, I created a very dumb helper script 'dsrc-new-patch' for this purpose.
<pitti> Using this, above steps would reduce to:
<pitti>   ../dsrc-new-patch 95_penguins.patch
<pitti>   sed -i 's/Linux/Penguin/g' README
<pitti>   <press Control-D to leave the subshell>
<pitti> that looks slightly better, doesn't it? If you like the script, please put it into your ~/bin, so that it is in your $PATH
<pitti> but I had to torture you with the close-to-the-metal method for the sake of understanding.
<pitti> dsrc-new-patch is currently too dumb to edit existing patches, or to put patches somewhere else than the top of the patch stack. If you need this, then you need to do the manual approach.
<pitti> everyone in sync?
<pitti> oh, just answer here, btw
<pitti> Loic: just needing more time, or some difficulties?
<Loic> What r the steps done by dsrc-new-patch
<pitti> Loic: the script does the exact same steps that you did manually before
<pitti> ok, let's go on then
<pitti> Since this is so hideously complicated, patch systems were invented to aid you with that. Let's look at the most popular ones now (they are sufficient to allow you to patch about 90% of the archive's source packages; for the rest you have to resort to the manual approach above).
<pitti> == pmount: cdbs with simple-patchsys ==
<pitti> cdbs' simple-patchsys.mk module matches its name, it has no bells and whistles whatsoever. However, it is pretty popular since it is sufficient for most tasks, and long ago I wrote a script 'cdbs-edit-patch' which most people can live with pretty well. This script is contained in the normal cdbs package.
<pitti> if you have a package, you can tell that it uses this system by checking debian/rules
<pitti> it has 'include /usr/share/cdbs/1/rules/simple-patchsys.mk'
<pitti> You just supply the name of a patch to the script, and depending on whether it already exists or not, it will create a new patch or edit an existing one.
<pitti> everyone please look in debian/patches, debian/rules to get a feeling how it looks like
<pitti> so, let's mess up pmount a bit
<pitti> and add a new patch
<pitti>   cd /whereever/you/unpacked/the/source/pmount-0.9.13
<pitti>   cdbs-edit-patch 03-simple-readme.patch
<pitti>   echo 'This should document pmount' > README
<pitti>   <press Control-D to leave the subshell>
<pitti> easy, isn't it?
<pitti> this will take care of applying all patches that need to be applied, can change patches in the middle of the stack, and also create new ones
<pitti> Editing an already existing patch works exactly the same way.
<pitti> so I won't give a demo
<pitti> (BTW, "cdbs-edit-patch" is slightly misleading, since it actually only applies to simple-patchsys.mk. You can also use other cdbs patch system plugins, such as dpatch or quilt.)
<pitti> questions?
<pitti> == ed: dpatch ==
<pitti> dpatch is a pretty robust and proven patch system which also ships a script 'dpatch-edit-patch'
<pitti> packages which use this build-depend on 'dpatch', and debian/rules includes 'dpatch.mk'
<pitti> The two most important things you should be aware of:
<pitti>  * dpatch does not apply debian/patches/*, but instead applies all patches mentioned in debian/patches/00list, in the mentioned order. That means that you do not have to rely on asciibetical ordering of the patches and can easily disable patches, but you have to make sure to not forget to update 00list if you add a new patch.
<pitti> (forgetting to update 00list is a common cause of followup uploads)
<ranf> "dpatch.make" that is in debian/rules
<pitti> right, sorry
<pitti>  * dpatch patches are actually scripts that are executed, not just patches fed to 'patch'. That means you can also do fancy things like calling autoconf or using sed in a dpatch if you want.
<pitti> using dpatch for non-native patches is rare, and normally you do not need to worry about how a .dpatch file looks like
<pitti> but I think it's important to mention it
<pitti> so if you ever want to replace *all* instances of Debian with Ubuntu in all files, write a dpatch with a small shell script that uses sed
<pitti> instead of doing a 300 KB static patch which won't apply to the next version anyway :)
<pitti> The manpage is very good and has examples, too, so I will only give an example here:
<pitti> This will edit an already existing patch and take care that all previous patches are applied in order:
<pitti>   cd /whereever/you/unpacked/the/source/ed-0.2
<pitti>   dpatch-edit-patch 05_ed.1-warning-fix
<pitti>   <edit stuff, press Ctrl+D>
<pitti> so that's exactly like cdbs-edit-patch
<pitti> ok, now we edited a patch, that was pretty straightforward now
<pitti> now let's create a new one; this is a bit different from cdbs-e-p
<pitti>   dpatch-edit-patch foo.dpatch 06_testsuite-Makefile.dpatch
<pitti>   <edit stuff, press Ctrl+D>
<pitti>   echo foo.dpatch >> debian/patches/00list
<pitti> This will create a new patch foo.dpatch relative to the already existing 06_testsuite-Makefile.dpatch. If your patch is very confined and does not depend on other patches, you can leave out the second argument.
<kalila> Rosetta classroom on?
<pitti> please note the last action (adding your new patch at the appropriate position in the patch list)
<pitti> kalila: not yet, 'patching source packages' ATM
<pitti> is the issue of patch dependencies clear to everyone or do you have questions about it?
<pitti> there's a third (and last) common patch system, quilt, but it's a bit more difficult
<mastroDani> 20 minutes to the next lesson?
<pitti> do you want to learn about this as well, or rather digest the stuff above and discuss it more in-depth?
<jjstwerff> doesn't matter much to me... I will try all of those for myself soon ;)
<pitti> then let's discuss the question of patch ordering a bit
<pitti> usually, when you maintain packages, there are several types of patches
<pitti> sometimes you create a distro-specific patch which will not go upstream
<pitti> those should go at the top of the patch stack
<pitti> but sometimes you get a bug fix from upstream cvs, etc.
<pitti> those should go at the bottom, i. e. be applied to the original code *first*
<pitti> so that (a) they have a better chance to actually apply (you might modify the same code in a custom patch)
<pitti> and (b) you keep your custom patches up to date, so that you have a better chance to send them to upstream
<pitti> upstreams really like patches which apply to their cvs head :)
<pitti> if you need a reference of patch systems (including quilt), there is a wiki page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/School/PatchingSources which provides most of above information in a more convenient format.
<pitti> However, it might be slightly out of date (it's from dapper times). Feel free to update the page and and add missing bits.
<pitti> === A glimpse into the future ===
<pitti> As you saw, Debian source packages do not have any requirements wrt. structure, patch systems, etc., other source package systems like SRPM are much stricter wrt that. This of course means more flexibility, but also much more learning overhead.
<pitti> As a member of the security team I can tell tales of the pain of a gazillion different source package layouts... :)
<pitti> Therefore some clever people sat together the other day to propose a new design which would both give us a new and unified source package and patch system that uses bzr (with a quilt-like workflow). This would also integrate packages and patches much better into Launchpad and revision control in general.
<pitti> Please take a look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NoMoreSourcePackages if you are interested in this.
<pitti> <Loic> <pitti> Thanks. I can also just edit any file in debian/ as well?
<pitti> that's indeed an interesting question
<pitti> in general I recommend *not* to patch debian/ control files in patches
<pitti> since developers expect that they can change debian/* stuff at will
<pitti> patches should really just patching the upstream bits, i. e. everything except debian/*
<pitti> <Loic> QUESTION: 2nd question : in dpatch-edit-patch foo.dpatch 06_testsuite-Makefile.dpatch why do you have 2 *.dpatch files? Why not just 06_testsuite-Makefile.dpatch ?
<pitti> "This will create a new patch foo.dpatch relative to the already existing 06_testsuite-Makefile.dpatch."
<kalila> I am hoping this is recorded somewhere
<pitti> Loic: i. e. this command will not touch 06_testsuite-Makefile.dpatch *at all*
<pitti> Loic: instead, it will apply all existing patches up to 06_testsuite-Makefile.dpatch and then create a new patch foo.dpatch relative to that with the modifications you do in the subshell
<ranf> So foo lands before or after 06_test...
<pitti> kalila: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/School/PatchingSources
<pitti> ranf: if you use the 'echo foo.dpatch >> debian/patches/00list' command that I gave, it will land after it
<pitti> ranf: since in dpatch there is no asciibetical patch order, but it is defined in the debian/patches/00list file
<pitti> <Loic> "those should go at the bottom, i. e. be applied to the original code *first*" How do I make a patch get at the botom instead?
<pitti> Loic: with dpatch, you leave out the second argument (which specifies the 'parent' patch)
<pitti> Loic: and then add the new patch file name at the top in 00list
<pitti> <Loic> "and then add the new patch file name at the top in 00list" can I just manually edit 00list after patching?
<pitti> yes, as I said, when you create a new dpatch, you *have* to add it to 00list manually
<pitti> unlike cdbs-edit-patch, where there is no explicit list
<pitti> i. e. there the list is 'ls debian/patches/*'
<pitti> <ranf> pitti do you use meld or something like this?
<pitti> ranf: I don't; maybe you can explain what meld is?
<ranf> a graphical diff.
<jjstwerff> it can show differences between directories of files
<jjstwerff> including an editor
<pitti> ah; well, I'm a hopeless hardcore 'diff | vim -' user, I'm afraid :)
<ranf> np
<pitti> if you have some good hints how to use that to make patching more efficient, I invite you to mention it on the wiki page
<pitti> but time is up, I'm afraid, so I'll give away the microphone here
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-classroom:PriceChild] : The Ubuntu Open Week continues at 15:00UTC - be there! || SCHEDULE: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek - SCHEDULE CHANGES, PLEASE SEE THE TIMETABLE || RULES: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules Please respect them || LOGS: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs || Ask questions and chat in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, "QUESTION: <insert question here>/cs o || CURRENT SESSION: Translating with Launchpad - Carlos Perello and Danil
<danilos> pitti: thanks
* pitti introduces carlos and thanks his audience for the patience
<pitti> I'm still available in #chat
* carlos introduces danilos, he will be driving the session
<danilos> Welcome to "Translating with Launchpad" Session.  Thanks for joining us.
<danilos> I am Danilo Segan, and I will be your host together with Carlos Perello Marin ("carlos" on the channel).
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+oo carlos danilos]  by PriceChild
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o pitti]  by pitti
<danilos> I'd also like to announce that since recently, we've got a new member of the Launchpad Translations development team: Jeroen Vermeulen or jtv on IRC (when online), and you can catch all three of us regularly on #launchpad channel for any questions or issues.
<danilos> Launchpad is a platform for collaborative development of free software, and a major component of free software development is doing translations.
<danilos> Launchpad provides system for management of translation work, and system for doing translations over the web or offline.
<danilos> To start doing translations, head over to http://translations.launchpad.net/
<danilos> Launchpad can help translate distributions and projects, and help their maintainers organise entire translation effort.
<danilos> Launchpad can help individual translators find software to translate, translation teams to join, and makes it easier for them to do translations.
<danilos> Launchpad can help translation teams organise, share effort and standardize terminology to use.
<danilos> = Distributions and Projects =
<danilos> For distributions or projects, there are many benefits.
<danilos> They can leave entire translation organisation on Launchpad, which provides privilege control, team management, PO uploads and downloads via tarballs, use of big existing pool of translators and translations.
<danilos> For example of a distribution taking maximum advantage of Launchpad Translations system, check out https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu/ (but you probably knew that already)
<danilos> Maintainers/distributors can track their imports using translations import queue page at https://translations.launchpad.net/translations/imports
<danilos> Since we love helping project maintainers use Launchpad as their translation service, you can send any questions in the Q&A part of the session (I am leaving a lot of time for questions).
<danilos> So get your questions ready, there will be plenty of time to answer them :)
<danilos> = Translators  =
<danilos> Last session showed that we get most interest from translators, so here's what it can do for them.  I'll describe the basic usage and how you can make most of Launchpad.
<danilos> As a translator, first thing you'd want to do is set your preferred languages (Launchpad can sometimes pick them up based on your IP address, but don't rely on that):
<danilos> https://translations.launchpad.net/+editmylanguages
<danilos> Then you can either join one of Ubuntu translation teams (https://translations.launchpad.net/translations/groups/ubuntu-translators) or start your own, or you can simply translate any of the projects which are using Launchpad for their translations: https://translations.launchpad.net/translations/+products-with-translations
<danilos> When you go either to a translation overview page for a package (https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu/feisty/+source/debian-installer/+translations) or a product (https://translations.launchpad.net/silva/), you'll see a list of templates which you can translate, and their translation status for your preferred languages (so you can see why was that important above).
<danilos> Clicking on the language title will take you directly to the page where you can add your translation suggestions (or review other suggestions, depending on your privileges).
<danilos> Alternative way to find what to translate is to head over to choose distribution release from the start page, such as Ubuntu Feisty, and then choose language you want to work on from that page: https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu/feisty/+translations
<danilos> When you click on a language, you'll get a list of all packages you can translate for Ubuntu Feisty, sorted by priority (as given by Ubuntu packagers and Launchpad Translations team).
<danilos> When finally on the translation page, you see a list of translatable messages, ten per page, with their translations, suggestions and a field to enter new translation.  Using that is, hopefully, clear, and if not, file a bug so we can make it clear.  Some things are trickier (such as 'need review' marking), so feel free to drop by #launchpad and ask for explanation any time.
<danilos> It's important to note that your privileges determine what you can do: eg. for Ubuntu, if you are a member of Spanish translation team, you can submit translations directly.  If you are not, your submissions will only appear as suggestions in Spanish translation, and a member of Spanish team will have to approve it.
<danilos> Translation page also allows filtering translated, untranslated and entries which need review.  This can help you complete big translations which lack only a few translations to be complete again.
<danilos> On that same translate page, you can download (look for 'Download' in the Actions menu) PO files to work offline using any of the PO editors (GTranslator, KBabel, POEdit, Emacs+po-mode, any text editor), and you can upload them back using 'Upload a file' in the Action menu on the left.
<danilos> Now, lets get to organising translation teams.
<danilos> = Translation teams =
<danilos> Launchpad can help you organise your translation teams.
<danilos> Translation teams are general Launchpad teams which can be assigned one of the translation duties (eg. https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-l10n-es is in charge of translating Ubuntu into Spanish)
<danilos> This is controlled using something we call 'Translation Groups'--https://translations.launchpad.net/translations/groups/.  This provides a mapping between languages and teams which translate for them.
<danilos> Every distribution or project can select a translation group they want to use for their translations.
<danilos> Members of translation teams should *only* be trusted translators: they will have full power over translations for that language, and you should NOT let anyone in.
<danilos> We've had a lot of problems upstreams complaining about bad translations, and most of them were due to badly managed teams (i.e. teams allowing anyone in). So, don't do that, and be strict about who you let in :)
<danilos> At the moment, to organise work you need to coordinate outside Launchpad: use mailing lists, IRC, Jabber or whatever.  We will be solving this.
<danilos> And I am done with my short overview of what can Launchpad do for translators. I *do* expect a lot of questions later on, but now I'm continuing with our plans for the future.
<danilos> = Future =
<danilos> We've got big plans for the future, and some of the priorities are the
<danilos> following:
<danilos> - Search for translations (yes, infamous bug 44 in LP)
<danilos> (you all saw that coming, didn't you)
<danilos> - Support for legacy KDE PO files (plural forms and context)
<danilos> - Native support for other translation formats (Mozilla, OpenOffice.org...)
<danilos> - Fixing import queue to give priority to human provided PO files and PO files for products over PO files for distribution (which there are usually too many of, so products and people wait because of them)
<danilos> - Improve speed (we're taking concrete steps to make this happen :)
<danilos> - Improve mechanisms for upstream cooperation (I expect some Qs in Q&A about this)
<danilos> - Make team management more flexible and powerful
<kalila> hehe
<danilos> - 'Open' Gutsy translation by May 31st
<danilos> We welcome suggestions on what should we focus on, even if we've got so much work to do already to make Launchpad rock.
<danilos> So, now to some interesting bits.
<danilos> = Tips, tricks and trivia =
<danilos> There's got to be some stuff you didn't know. Or you did, but didn't share with others :)
<danilos> When uploading, choose 'Published upload' if you don't want to override others' translations that have happened in the meantime.
<danilos> You can download PO files to find a specific string in it (many have done this already)
<danilos> For Ubuntu, start translating from the top of https://translations.beta.launchpad.net/ubuntu/feisty/+lang/sr (for Serbian): they are sorted by priority.
<carlos> (remove beta from the given URL)
<danilos> Don't forget to update Last-Translator field when translating via PO files, and also never remove or change X-Rosetta-Export-Date field from PO header (or you won't be able to re-import it).
<danilos> carlos: thanks, that's right, the link should be https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu/feisty/+lang/sr
<danilos> Use Google with "site:translations.launchpad.net" to search for strings as a workaround.  This will commonly give you pointer to someone's translations page, but you can pick a template name from there, visit it, and switch over to your own language.
<danilos> For those of you familiar with 'Rosetta', you can notice that we rarely use it, and we are favouring just 'Launchpad' or 'Launchpad Translations' for the present and future :)
<danilos> You can use [nbsp]  to get non-breaking spaces if you've got problems inserting them directly (Firefox is known to be buggy with them).
<danilos> Don't upload wrong PO files (eg. wrong language): this will mess up suggestions for entire PO file.
<danilos> No need to email us back with 'thank you' for automatic exports (though, we indeed appreciate those :).
<danilos> When you get message that your language is missing plural forms, either email us at rosetta@launchpad.net, or file a ticket using https://answers.launchpad.net/rosetta/
<danilos> And that's it: I'd welcome you to #launchpad on FreeNode and rosetta-users and ubuntu-translators lists
<danilos> = Questions and Answers =
<danilos> This is where I expect Carlos to be a big help.  Guys, shoot.
<carlos> <bullgard4> danilos: QUESTION: Does Ubuntu prefer American English or British English?
<danilos> I've seen this one already answered on chat channel, but lets repeat: it's supposed to be American English, and British English provides a translation
<kalila> QUESTION: ok, let me get this out of the way :)     are there any plans for "locking" translations? especially ones that are coming from upstream, and only allowing the ones that need to be customised?
<danilos> however, it's still very much dependent on the project what base language they use
<carlos> kalila: please, use #ubuntu-classroom-chat for the questions, I will paste them one by one, don't worry
<danilos> for example, GNOME does use American English, but some other projects might not (I don't know them off the top of my head)
<danilos> hope this clears it up about the language in use
<danilos> carlos: next question, please :)
<carlos> <bullgard4> danilos: QUESTION: How do you define a 'trusted translator'?
<danilos> ok, this one is tricky, and doesn't have much to do with Launchpad
<danilos> I generally trust community processes to determine who is a 'trusted translator'
<danilos> That means that, over time, people become generally satisfied or dissatisfied with someone
<danilos> Launchpad helps there with Karma counts, but that's not enough for proper conclusion
<carlos> bullgard4: for instance in spanish team
<carlos> we require two approved translators to validate the new member translations quality
<carlos> before we actually accept him
<carlos> <bullgard4> danilos: QUESTION: Why are the Feisty translations of Gnome so patchy in German? Some parts are in English, others in German, and I cannot recognize any regular pattern in it.
<danilos> for this one, we'd need more details
<carlos> yeah, and a bug report so we can debug it
<danilos> there are several possible reasons: bad translation from package, bad translation using Launchpad, or a bug
<carlos> <bullgard4> danilos: QUESTION: How do you secure that a translation is objectively of high standard and not prone to subjective preferences of one ore two translators in power?
<danilos> but it's a problem, and if you've run into case like that, please report it either using answer tracker, or file a bug
<danilos> ok, on to next question
<danilos> again a hard one, and not really tied to Launchpad
<danilos> we simply don't secure that, but again trust community processes which have given us the most of free software and their translations so far
<carlos> bullgard4: if you think there is any abuse on people approving translators, you can always use Ubuntu mechanisms to resolve conflicts
<carlos> abuse of having extra rights or permissions is against Ubuntu CoC
<danilos> since we don't have native speakers for all of Worlds languages, we simply cannot ensure quality of translations ourselves
<danilos> but if enough people complain about people in power, that should be a good indicator that they are doing a bad job, and we can fix that
<carlos> <bullgard4> danilos: QUESTION: How can a rank-and-file Ubuntu user contribute to an improved translation without being admitted to the elusive circle of admitted Ubuntu tranlators?
<danilos> like some other free software projects, Ubuntu seems to be meritocracy: you are valued as much as you contribute
<danilos> when you start, you start by giving out suggestions
<danilos> then you ask already 'trusted translators' to review your translations
<danilos> and they'll have a few suggestions to comply with glossary, terminology, etc.
<danilos> or they'll be extremely satisfied
<danilos> and once you contributed enough, they'd probably welcome you to the team, having gotten trust in you
<carlos> <kalila> QUESTION: ok, let me get this out of the way :)     are there any plans for "locking" translations? especially ones that are coming from upstream, and only allowing the ones that need to be customised?
<danilos> We have not planned locking translations yet, but we have planned making it easier to roll back to translations coming from packages (which are usually almost exactly like upstream :)
<danilos> There are several things we plan to do to make this happen
<danilos> First thing we'll do is provide filter on translation pages to look only at strings which are changed from upstream
<danilos> and another is to provide a PO file download which includes only such changed translations (so you can easily merge them with upstream PO files)
<danilos> We'll consider allowing locking translations as well
<danilos> but not in the short term
<carlos> <deniz_ogut> QUESTION: How will the translation teams initially form? (So they have the ability to let others in.)
<danilos> I am glad we are getting this many questions on translation teams: proper organisation is key to good work
<danilos> In practice, translation teams form from one person who is devoted and dedicated to working on translations for a language
<danilos> well, one or a couple
<danilos> only "larger" languages (I won't define 'larger', but you can guess what I mean) don't have a problem finding enough translators
<danilos> those initial members usually grow out to be team leaders
<danilos> and they need to be diplomatic and constructive in their work, ready to change courses, and welcoming to new members
<danilos> if they are not, they risk staying the only members in the long run
<danilos> of course, proper knowledge of English and language they translate to is very useful
<danilos> and how they organise effort is important, but there are many right ways to do it
<carlos> <deniz_ogut> QUESTION: In my country most of thie translation job is done in KDE or GNOME groups and people from several different distros work there. So translated GNOME applications are used both for Ubuntu and other distros, KDE both for Kubuntu and others. Some applications such as Firefox and OpenOffice have their own teams. Now, won't it create a conflict and mess if we begin to do some translations under Launchpad?
<danilos> (I know successful teams who have used mailing lists, others who used bug trackers, web pages, CVS/SVN, or something entirely different for organising themselves)
<danilos> There is indeed risk for conflict
<danilos> but we try to ensure it's minimal
<carlos> we ask translators to coordinate with them and send them back changes done in Rosetta
<danilos> We are generally using stable releases of most software in Ubuntu, which already have their translation work finished
<danilos> but other than that, we hope Ubuntu translators are able to coordinate with them, as carlos said
<carlos> the main problem we try to solve is that once GNOME does a release
<carlos> the don't release new translations after a couple of months
<danilos> we can also suggest people to use Launchpad for translations for upstream projects, and they can contribute their translations back upstream (i.e. it can work the other way as well)
<carlos> but we could have that version around for 2 more years
<carlos> so we allow Ubuntu translators to have a full translated GNOME/KDE for all that time
<danilos> the main advantage of Launchpad is that it allows you to have almost real-time updates to translations as translators do them
<danilos> well, not the main advantage, but one of advantages :)
<carlos> and final question (we have more time, so feel free to ask more on #ubuntu-classroom-chat)
<carlos> <bullgard4> danilos: QUESTION: Do make available International Standards (e. g. of ISO) to translators in order to improve the quality of tranlations?
<danilos> I don't understand what is meant with this question
<carlos> bullgard4: could you give us more details about it?
<danilos> ok, so bullgard4 explains
<danilos> <bullgard4> A tranlator who is knowleadgable will deliver better tranlations.
<danilos> <bullgard4> ISO takes care of terminology also.
<danilos> ISO terminology is usually limited to English (and French, sometimes)
<danilos> what translators usually need to turn to is *national* standards, not international ones
<bullgard4> yes of course, they are important.
<danilos> national and linguistic standards provide good reference for translators
<danilos> knowing international standards is useful when translating specific applications
<carlos> ok, we got another question:
<carlos> <deniz_ogut> QUESTION: Does it give any harm to the process if I translate an application "very partially", online via Launchpad. I mean; I have 15 minutes today, do some; 2 hours next week... and so on.
<danilos> no, not at all: this is a big advantage of Launchpad way of doing translations
<danilos> it's designed specifically to allow such workflow
<danilos> it can even be several people translating bit by bit
<danilos> of course, when several people are doing it, it's important to have standard terminology and style guide
<danilos> but that's something you organise and coordinate inside your team
<carlos> next one,
<carlos> <rohan> QUESTION: what about languages not using english character set ? e.g. hindi ? is it just as easy to translate ? do i put the translated strings using copy paste or so ?
<carlos> well
<danilos> rohan: I must admit that I don't know much about hindi input
<danilos> so, I'll let carlos take this one over
<carlos> the good think about Launchpad is that we are not directly and editor
<carlos> so we rely on your web browser
<carlos> if your web browser/system supports it, Launchpad does too
<carlos> we already implement the required tags to control text direction
<carlos> based on the language the user is translated into, the rest should be supported by your computer
<carlos> ok, seems like there is no other questions
<danilos> any more questions folks? if we missed something, you've got 5 more minutes, or you can catch us regularly on #launchpad
<carlos> we still have 4 minutes
<carlos> :-)
<danilos> yes, 4 :)
<danilos> ok, so no questions
<carlos> <pochu> carlos: QUESTION: any ETA for the search feature in rosetta? ;)
<carlos> that's more a question for danilos, he's working on that task
<carlos> but I don't think we have an ETA yet
<carlos> we started with that task
<carlos> we hope to finish it soon, but we don't know exactly when
<danilos> I am very bad at giving ETA's, so I can't give it out for you... It won't happen in a month since we've got other important things to work on
<pochu> now that you're three in the team, you should get it soon ;)
<danilos> but it's one of major things we know everybody is interested in (and so are we)
<carlos> <bullgard4> danilos: QUESTION: Some translators are proud that their translations are better than those of M$. Do you agree?
<danilos> pochu: yeah, having help from jtv is very welcome :)
<danilos> I indeed agree. I can positively say that Serbian translations of Ubuntu/GNOME/OpenOffice are better than Microsoft translation of Windows
<danilos> :)
<danilos> However, note that MS is indeed lacking in i18n framework in several places
<carlos> ok, we ran out of time
<danilos> like plural forms support
<carlos> danilos: thanks for driving this session
<carlos> and thanks for coming !!
<danilos> thanks everybody, I'll stick around -chat for a few minutes as well
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-classroom:PriceChild] : SCHEDULE: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek - SCHEDULE CHANGES, PLEASE SEE THE TIMETABLE || RULES: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules Please respect them || LOGS: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs || Ask questions and chat in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, "QUESTION: <insert question here>/cs o || CURRENT SESSION: Translating with Launchpad - Triaging Bugs With Launchpad - Bjorn Tillenius
<carlos> and remember, we are always around at #launchpad
<carlos> BjornT: the channel is all yours
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o BjornT]  by PriceChild
<BjornT> thanks carlos
<BjornT> PriceChild: could you please give bdmurray +o as well?
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o bdmurray]  by PriceChild
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o carlos]  by ChanServ
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o danilos]  by ChanServ
<BjornT> Ok, so let's start this session about triaging bugs with Launchpad.
<BjornT> I'm Bjorn Tillenius, the lead developer of the bug tracking part of Launchpad.
<BjornT> This session will be more or less a repeat of the previous one on Monday, but I'll be giving more priorities to questions, trying to answer as many as possible.
<BjornT> Also, this time Brian Murray (bdmurray) from the Ubuntu BugSquad is here to help me answer questions.
<BjornT> At least he should be joining us shortly.
<bdmurray> Yes, hello.
<BjornT> Cool.
<BjornT> For those of you that don't already know, Launchpad (https://launchpad.net) is a web application for managing software projects, i.e. it provides bug tracking, feature tracking, code hosting, and more.
<BjornT> A lot more could be said about Launchpad. If you're intested in knowing more, mrevell gives an introduction to Launchpad tomorrow.
<BjornT> First of all, let's define "triage", since it's not a commonly used word. The
<BjornT> dictionary defintion is:
<BjornT>     1.   the process of sorting victims, as of a battle or disast er, to determine medical priority in order to increase the number of survivors.
<BjornT>      2.   the determination of priorities for action in an emergency.
<BjornT> When I talk about triaging here, it has a slightly different meaning, though. :) It involves prioritisation of bugs, but more importantly it means to prepare the bug reporter for a bug fixer, so that he can focus on what he can do best.
<BjornT> Now, let's talk about getting started with triaging bug.
<BjornT> Triaging bugs is a great way of getting involved with a project. It doesn't require that you know how to code, and pretty much anyone can learn how do it.
<BjornT> Doing this session actually made me realize that it can be quite hard to know how to get involved with triaging bugs, but don't let that put you off!
<BjornT> If you just contact the right people, they will most of the time be happy that you want to help, since that can improve the experience for their bug reporters.
<BjornT> Do contact someone related to the project before triaging bugs, though. Each project has their policy of how to triage bugs, and it might not be that well documented. It's important to have a good dialog, so that you know that you are triaging correctly.
<BjornT> As a bug reporter, you want that someone cares about your bug report, so having bug triagers that can reply promptly to new bug reports is a great asset for a project.
<BjornT> By triaging bugs you'll also help the developers focus more on bug fixing, and less on talking.
<BjornT> There are a few different ways you can triage bugs; some require more knowledge and authority than the others.
<BjornT> I'd say the two most common meanings of triaging are:
<BjornT>     - making sure that the bug report contains enough information
<BjornT>      - prioritize the bug
<BjornT> The latter can be quite difficult to do, and it requires that you are trusted by the project, so i'll be concentrating on the first point, which basically means to make the bug report good enough so that more experienced people can prioritize and fix the bug.
<BjornT> So, what kind of information should the bug report contain?
<BjornT> Basically it should contain enough information so that someone could reproduce the bug, and it should also clearly state what the actual bugs is.
<BjornT> i.e., it should contain the answers to the following questions:
<BjornT>     - what did you do?
<BjornT>      - what happened?
<BjornT>      - what did you expect to happen?
<BjornT> But this is not the only information that is needed;  each project have their set of requirements and guidelines as to what exactly a bug report should contain.
<BjornT> So before starting to triage bugs for a project, you should get in contact with the people that are dealing with bugs within the project.
<BjornT> Your best bet is usually to look at who's the designated "Bug Contact"
<BjornT> of the project, find them on IRC or drop them an e-mail.
<BjornT> Since this is *Ubuntu* Open Week, let's take Ubuntu as an example. Note that most of the things I will talk about here apply to any project using Launchpad, not just Ubuntu.
<BjornT> If you look at https://launchpad.net/ubuntu you can see that the 'Ubuntu Bugs' team is the bug contact. If you follow that link to https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-bugs, you can see that you shouldn't join that team, though!
<BjornT> The ubuntu-bugs team is used mostly to get all the bug notifications sent to a mailing list.
<BjornT> On the same page you can see that the Ubuntu QA Team is listed as the owner, so if you'd follow that link you'd be pointed to the Ubuntu BugSquad, which is that team that deals with bugs in Ubuntu.
<BjornT> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugSquad contains all information you need to join the team and start triaging Ubuntu bugs. Don't be shy, they will appreciate any help you can give them. :) They usually hang out in #ubuntu-bugs here on freenode.
<BjornT> But don't go off reading all that information just yet, though, since it would take most of this session. Instead I will talk a bit about triaging bugs here.
<BjornT> So, now that we know who we should talk to about triaging bugs, we can talk about picking which bugs to triage.
<BjornT> If you look at https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu you can see that there's a great deal of Unconfirmed bugs. It's those bugs that you want to turn to either Confirmed or Rejected.
<BjornT> Confirmed basically means that the bug report contains enough information for someone to fix the bug, and Rejected means that it's not really a bug, for example, it could be a support request disguised as a bug report.
<BjornT> When you triage bugs, you start to have a conversation with the bug reporter. This is important work, since it gives the bug reporter someone to talk to, and it shows him that someone does care about his bug report.
<BjornT> Be sure to be polite to the reporter, though :), we don't want him to get a bad impression of the community.
<BjornT> In order to avoid more than one people triage the same bug, it's a good idea to assign the bug you want to triage to yourself. This gives you a list of bugs you need to pay extra attention to at https://launchpad.net/people/+me/+assignedbugs.
<BjornT> Assigning the bug to yourself also makes it easier for triager to find bugs you want to triage, since you can exclude bugs that are assigned to someone.
<BjornT> To find bugs to triage, you can go back to https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu and click on the "Advanced search" link, which will allow you to filter the bug listing in a great number of ways.
<BjornT> In Ubuntu, bugs are considered untriaged if they are Unconfirmed, have an Undecided importance, and doesn't have an assignee.
<BjornT> So you should make sure that no other statuses or importances are checked, as well as making sure that "Nobody" is specified as the assignee.
<BjornT> After you've done this and clicked on "Search", you probably want to bookmark that page.
<BjornT> When you have the list of bugs, it's a good idea to open each bug you want to triage into a new browser tab. That makes it easier to get back to the bug listing after you're done with the bug.
<BjornT> Now, let's talk about how you actually triage a bug report that you've found.
<BjornT> First, you should read through the bug report and make sure that you understand what the bug report is about. If it's unclear, ask the reporter to clarify.
<BjornT> When you ask the reporter something, you should set the status to "Needs Info", so that the reporter (and you) knows that action is required from him.
<BjornT> Sometimes the bug reporter doesn't respond, so if a bug in "Needs Info" hasn't gotten a reply for a while, it's usally a good idea to Reject the bug, since it can't be fixed without knowing more about the problem.
<BjornT> Now, it might not be completely obvious how to change a bug's status, so I'll better tell you how to do it :).
<BjornT> You change the status of the bug by clicking on the package name (e.g.  "amule (Ubuntu)"), which will expand the edit form, where you can edit things like status, assignee, and package name, and you can also leave a comment while editing.
<BjornT> Anyone is allowed to edit the status of a bug, you don't need any special privileges.
<BjornT> Now, let's get back to actually triaging the bug.
<BjornT> There are a number of different things you can to do. A good first step is to try to reproduce the bug. If you don't know what steps are necessary, you should ask the bug reporter for more information.
<BjornT> Now, after he's given all the information, it will be there in the comments. But sometimes there are a great number of comments in a bug, so the needed information can be hard to find there.
<BjornT> So, to make it easier to find, Launchpad allows you to edit the bug description, by clicking on the "Edit description/tags" link in the action menu to the left.
<BjornT> Moving the important information to the description will make it much easier for the next person looking at the bug to understand the bug.
<BjornT> The next thing you should do is to try to decide whether the bug is filed under the correct source package. In Launchpad bugs are associated with source packages, not binary packages, and it can be hard for people to know on which package to file the bug on.
<BjornT> If a bug doesn't have a package at all, or an incorrect one, it could lead to the bug not getting looked at by the people that should.
<BjornT> Also, each package generally have few different guidelines as to what information a bug should contain, and it narrows down the scope of possible duplicate bugs.
<BjornT> You can change/set the source package on the same form as editing the status, which is expanded by clicking on the package name on the bug page. You can find more information about finding the right source package at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/FindRightPackage.
<BjornT> Let's break for a quick question.
<BjornT>  < zorglu_> q. is there some kind of voting system ... i mean something
<BjornT>                  which say 1 people reported this bug but 300 others have seens
<BjornT>                  it as well ?
<zorglu_> it was more for -chat, but ok :)
<BjornT> no, there's no such voting system.
<BjornT> but you if someone experiences a bug, he might subscribe to the bug, so you can look at how many duplicates and subscribers a bug has.
<BjornT> < Belutz> QUESTION: should we triage bugs for the recent release? or all. release that is still supported?
<BjornT> bdmurray: can you answer that one?
<bdmurray> For all releases that are supported should be triaged.  However, it is possible that something might be fixed in Feisty and not get backported to Dapper or Edgy.
<bdmurray> It is also possible to find bugs about unsupported releases for example Breezy in launchpad.
<BjornT> < dcomsa> <question> what are the conditions to be met, so that a. developer will have a look at a bug report?
<BjornT> In general, if a bug is Confirmed and have an importance set, it should be good enough for a developer to look at.
<bdmurray> The information needed for a developer to be successful is dependent on the package the bug is in.
<BjornT> < Belutz> QUESTION: so if i use feisty now, i can't reproduce bugs that. happened in dapper/edgy so I should leave those bugs to other. people to triage?
<BjornT> bdmurray: ^^^
<bdmurray> To a degree.  It is still possible to gather the right information for a bug that happens in Edgy or Dapper you just may not be able to verify or reproduce it.  Furthermore you could help find duplicates for Dapper and Edgy without running it.
<BjornT> Ok, let's continue with the session. There'll be more time for questions later.
<BjornT> After you decided that the source package is correct, you can start to search for similar bug reports, to see if the bug has already been reported before.
<BjornT> You should start by going to the package's bug listing, which you can reach by expanding the edit form by clicking on the package name, and then click on the package name next to "Affecting:" to the right in the edit form.
<BjornT> It's good to open this page in a new browser tab, so that you can easily return to the bug report.
<BjornT> On the package bugs page, e.g.  https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/amule, you can search for bugs that are reported on the amule package. The search will include all the bug reports that include the search words that you specify.
<BjornT> If you found a bug report that is about the same bug as the report you are triaging, you can go back to the latter and indicate that it's a duplicate bug by clicking on "Mark as duplicate" and enter the id of the bug you've found.
<BjornT> It can be hard to identify duplicate bug sometimes, though. The important thing is that the root cause is the same. Sometime two different bugs can appear to be the same, but have different root causes.
<BjornT> e.g., two different bugs could cause the error message "An error occured" to be printed out.
<BjornT> Now, if the bug isn't a duplicate, you can continue making sure that the bug report contains enough information so that a developer can debug what's wrong, ideally without having to request more information for the bug reporter.
<BjornT> The most common thing is to ask the user what version of the related packages he's using. The reporter might not know how to get at this information, so be prepared to tell him how to do it.
<BjornT> Apart from the general version information, each package, or subsystem has their own set of information they want a bug report to contain. For example, bugs involving a USB printer should contain a list of loaded usb modules, as well as some specific log output. The BugSquad can tell you more about this.
<BjornT> Now, since each part of a project is different, it can makes sense to focus on a specific part. This is especially true for large projects like Ubuntu. For example, in Ubuntu you could choose to focus on printing bugs, desktop bugs, firefox bugs, etc.
<BjornT> Focusing on a smaller set of bugs gives you an opportunity to learn more about it, so that you, after a while, can do more advanced triaging, and maybe even fix bugs yourself.
<BjornT> There are usually teams you can join if you want to focus on some specific kind of bugs.
<BjornT> Let's break for some more questions.
<BjornT> < habeeb> QUESTION: Right now I'm using a distro other than Ubuntu. Can I. still help on the bug triaging? What would you suggest to be. sure that I don't mess up stuff?
<BjornT> bdmurray: ^^^
<bdmurray> Frequently bug reports come in without all the necessary information to recreate the bug.  So you could still ask questions to make sure the right information is gathered.  We have a list of standard response at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Responses
<BjornT> < bullgard4> BjornT: QUESTION: I have started Ubuntu 7.04 Herd4 and when. it announced a crash I would file it to the uggested. channels. Usually I could only add some circumstances under. which the error occurred. I noticed some answers I've got.. But more I could not contribute, I'm afraid. Is this still. helpful?
<BjornT> bdmurray: ^^^
<bdmurray> It sounds like you were using apport to report a crash and yes the information it reported was helpful.  However, it is best to have the circumstances around the crash reported.
<BjornT> Ok, let's finish off with talking a bit about more advanced triaging, which you can do when you are a bit more experienced.
<BjornT> One example of more advanced triaging is forwarding bugs to other projects.
<BjornT> Most of the time, the bugs reported on Ubuntu, aren't bugs in the actual packaging of the software, but a bug in the software itself, which is better fixed by someone else.
<BjornT> In this case Launchpad allows you to link bug to the other software's bug tracker. For example, if you look at https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/abiword/+bug/6710 you can see that there are two abiword rows in the "Affects" table, one (upstream), and one (Ubuntu).
<BjornT> The abiword (upstream) one is linked to bug #6857 in abiword's real bug tracker, and when that bug change its status, Launchpad will send a notification it, so that the Ubuntu developer fixing the bug may choose to pull in the upstream fix.
<BjornT> You can create such an (upstream) row by clicking on the "Also affects: +Upstream..." link. There you will first get prompted to enter the name of upstream project.
<BjornT> Launchpad does have some knowledge of which upstream project corresponds to which Ubuntu package, so sometimes you don't have to specify anything at all, and can simply continue linking to the external bug report.
<BjornT> However, if Launchpad doesn't know which project you want to link to, you have to specify the name yourself, and sometimes you even have to register it in Launchpad.  Registering projects in Launchpad for this purpose is ok to do, even if you aren't associated with that project.
<BjornT> When doing this it's good to be aquinted with upstream project. You should always try to be a good upstream community citizen, which will help Ubuntu.
<BjornT> < Belutz> QUESTION: how do we know that the bugs also affect upstream?
<BjornT> bdmurray: ^^^
<bdmurray> That's a good question.  Some of it is knowing how different Ubuntu's code base for a pacakge is from upstreams.  Part of it is also looking to see if the bug has already been reported upstream.  Another way to find out would be to ask the packager of the product for Ubuntu.
<BjornT> < RainCT> QUESTION: How can I set that a bug is affecting many Ubuntu. version?
<BjornT> You can do this by clicking on "Also affects:... +Distribution"
<bdmurray> That is not releases of Ubuntu though.
<BjornT> That page is used both for saying that a bug affects another distribution (e.g. Debian), as well as saying that it affects another source package.
<BjornT> oh, wait, misread the question :_
<nevermind_> QUESTION: having timeouts with irq on using synaptics touchpad on my acer travelmate 250, running latest stable ubuntu
<nevermind_> had same prob with all linux distris so far, on the web there are a few bootloader tricks, that didnt do for me
<BjornT> bdmurray: maybe you'd like to answer how you deal with bugs affecting more than one ubuntu version? do you care about it?
<nevermind_> tried kernels: 2.6.1x, 2.6.0x, 2.4.x, 2.2.x
<nevermind_> and 2.6.20
<bdmurray> That sounds like a specific bug question and should be asked in #ubuntu-bugs
<nevermind_> still seems to have the problem, sadly
<nevermind_> ok, thx for the tip)
<bdmurray> For bugs affecting more than one version of Ubuntu it is dependent on the severity of the bug as to whether or not it will be fixed in a previous release.  If a bug is filed on a specific package it is understood that it affects all versions with that version of the package.
<bdmurray> all releases rather
<nevermind_> well, its not exactly a ubuntu problem
<nevermind_> id say its a kernel thing
<nevermind_> )
<nevermind_> tried with ubuntu's own, and build my own stock packages too, same result
<BjornT> Ok, I think it's time to let the next session begin. Thanks for listening.
<BjornT> To remind you, if you want to start triaging Ubuntu bugs (you really should give it a try), read https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugSquad and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/HowToTriage.
* jenda pokes his head in
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-classroom:PriceChild] : SCHEDULE: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek - SCHEDULE CHANGES, PLEASE SEE THE TIMETABLE || RULES: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules Please respect them || LOGS: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs || Ask questions and chat in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, "QUESTION: <insert question here>/cs o || CURRENT SESSION: Ubuntu Marketing Team - Jenda Vanura
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o jenda]  by PriceChild
<bdmurray> And feel free to ask me questions in ubuntu-bugs
<Belutz> BjornT, bdmurray thanks for a great session
<jenda> Hello :)
<jenda> I'm Jenda, and I'll be presenting the Marketing Team in this session
<jenda> Although I'll be leading this session, the Marketing Team itself (MT) does not have a leader.
<jenda> I'll return to the actual structure of it later.
<jenda> I'm hoping some other marketing team folks will appear and drop in a few words about their individual projects.
<jenda> Jono mentioned earlier that I might be talking about marketing...
<jenda> ...don't be fooled, I know nothing about marketing ;)
<jenda> I'll be talking about Ubuntu's marketing _team_.
<jenda> I'm still hoping others, more qualified in actual marketing, will appear later on :)
<jenda> The MT's most interesting attribute, I'd say, is that it's an area in Ubuntu where even the least technical of us (of you, too) can contribute.
<jenda> (By the way, feel free to interrupt me at any time with questions)
<jenda> The Marketing Team is a group of loosely knit projects, which are listed at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MarketingTeam
<jenda> The most obvious shortcoming of not having a team leader is that nobody is responsible for that page being up to date ;)
<jenda> And nobody but the actual project members will usually dare mark a project 'inactive'.
<jenda> The MT is a purely community effort, there is little or no contact with Canonical's professional Marketing - save occassional consultation.
<jenda> (us consulting them, I'd say, is more common ;))
<jenda> This means the MT has no budget or formal existence - and thus can't and doesn't actually participate in professional marketing per se.
<jenda> What the MT focuses on is what the community does best: grassroots marketing.
<Richard> Is there a meeting currently in place?
<jenda> Richard: kinda ;) see #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<jenda> Currently, what the MT is doing, what I think it should be doing, and what it probably could be doing are three largely disjunct categories.
<jenda> (well, no the latter two are actually nearly identical ;))
<jenda> The MT's only truly active projects are the Ubuntu Weekly Newsletter (you all read that, don't you? Don't you??) and the Fridge, which likes to distance itself a bit from the MT itself.
<jenda> There is also the ubuntu counter.
<jenda> These three projects all have one thing in common:
<jenda> They focus within the community.
<jenda> The UWN does a _great_ job of keeping the community up to date of itself.
<jenda> The Fridge fulfills a similar role, in a slightly different style.
<jenda> Experience has shown that (IMO, at least) these two are not mutually redundant and each has their place.
<jenda> But they can hardly be considered Marketing Projects.
<jenda> (In the FLOSS world, I imagine marketing as raising public awareness of the existence, benefits and malefits of (the particular piece of) FLOSS, it's promotion and advocacy.)
<jenda> The counter is clearly only of interest to us, members who like being counted.
<jenda> The Joe User does care about how many people use Ubuntu, of course, but he cares more about "We estimate 5-8 million users" than "We have reliably counted 20,000 users..."
<jenda> In this line of thought, I'll admit that my own project within the MT, DIY Marketing, also focuses mainly on existing community members as is, and even when complete will still be of more interest to them than to non-users.
<jenda> I'll get to the details of the project towards the end of the sesion.
<jenda> *ss
<jenda> The pattern I described is, I believe clear: it's immensely easier to work for a target audience within the existing community than the TA without.
<jenda> From this I conclude - we should focus on the latter ;)
<jenda> My personal opinion (and observation) is that the only _real_ marketing, as described above, can be done by LoCo teams.
<jenda> Only the LoCo teams are close enough to the target audience (TA) to be able to appeal to it.
<jenda> This doesn't mean there is no place for the MT to do its work
<jenda> It means it needs to adjust its work, taking the above into account.
<jenda> This allows us to split marketing efforts into two basic categories
<jenda> The first category would be activities done by LoCos
<jenda> This includes Press Relations, RL fests, conferences and expos, face-to-face advocacy etc.
<jenda> The other category includes marketing efforts that are targeted towards the global audience, and I personally believe this category to be nearly empty.
<jenda> It might contain stuff like web advertisements.
<jenda> They do not require further attention, I think.
<jenda> So, if category #2 is negligeable, and category #1 is better suited for LoCos... what can the MT do?
<jenda> That is the question ;)
<jenda> The answer is: a lot of the work the locoteams do will have to be replicated by other locoteams in order to achieve the same result.
<jenda> This means, a lot of effort can be saved by them either sharing their work, or someone (hint: MT) to predict their needs and cater to them, centrally.
<jenda> My focus within the team, and my vision for the entire team is just that - it should provide resources for the LoCo teams to use.
<jenda> I find it remarkable how close this envisioned role gets to the only role the MT manages to fulfill to date (which is of intra-community communication)
<jenda> I ran out of words for the MT's role, I hope what I had to say was understandable :) I'll now move on...
<jenda> I said I'd get back to the structure of the MT.
<jenda> The MT is quite simply composed of individual projects, who's sub-teams overlap.
<jenda> There is rarely a need to decide for teh entire team, and when there is, it is decided by consensus or simply acquiesced.
<jenda> (I'm sure I spelt that wrong :))
<jenda> Most notably, the decisions we make for the entire team are times of meetings. It's usually one of teh MT members who write them out, and unless there's a complaint from someone who really has something to say at the meeting, it usually stays at that.
<jenda> I'll now move on to the individual projects.
<jenda> I'm not sure if there are any of the MT folks here who'd like to talk about theirs...
<jenda> Going once... ;)
<jenda> OK, beuno will now tell you a bit about the UWN
<jenda> He has sent out the past few issues.
<jenda> (sent out and largely made happen, i sohuld say ;))
<beuno> Hi everyone, I'm Martin Albisetti and I've been the editor for the past (7 or 8 I think) issues. I'm probably a good example of what Jenda is trying to explain by how the Marketing Team works
<jenda> hehe
<beuno> the Ubuntu Weekly Newsletter was stalled, and I just picked it up, finished it and nagged people until it got released
<beuno> so that's a good example of how you can get involved pretty quickly
<beuno> the UWN is a great place to start since it doesn't require any prior experience in marketing or ubuntu itself
<jenda> (In fact, it's what I did to the Marketing Team a little over a year ago ;))
<beuno> there is a secret to it which I think we should advertise more, which is if you actually go on the wiki page (ie: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter/Issue37), and you click on edit
<beuno> you will see many comments on how to contribute to each specific section
<PriceChild> (if you're logged in to the wiki with your launchpad account)
<beuno> a lot of work has gone into making it as clear as possible
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o beuno]  by ChanServ
<beuno> and as jenda mentioned, the main focus is keeping the community updated on what's been going on, so anything you *hear* might be useful
<beuno> much of our material come from random emails in our mailing list and users on IRC mentioning specific topics or articles
<beuno> right now the UWN is keeping up with a weekly release every sunday, which means a lot of presure on very few people, so if you're looking for something to help out with, you are more the welcome in UWN
<beuno> a great way to help out is to hang around in #ubuntu-marketing and ask what needs to be done this week, as simple as that
<beuno> another effort that has been going on the past few issues is translating the UWN
<beuno> since the goal is to keep as many users as possible informed, we want it to be available in as many languages as possible
<beuno> my very rough estimate is that it's being translated into 5 or 6 languages on a weekly basis, which is a lot considering how often it's released
<beuno> again, translations, like the rest of the projects in the MT has a "just do it approach"
<beuno> login to the wiki, create a new page for the translation, and get it done
<jenda> (not all projects have that approach!)
<beuno> some translations are done through LoCo groups, some are done individually, and it even changes every week
<beuno> right, sorry, not all projects have that approach
<beuno> but there are many areas where you can help out without necessarly participating actively in the marketing team (although that does help)
<jenda> beuno: shhh ;)
<jenda> beuno: anything else about the UWN?
<beuno> not unless someone has a question
<jenda> I was about to move on to my own DIY project, but I'll pass as we are running short on time.
<jenda> You can read pretty much all I have to say about DIY on wiki.ubuntu.com/MarketingTeam/DIYWebsite
<jenda> I believe now's a good time for any questions you might have :)
<zorglu_> q. have you guys already tried to provide extension which are not the pex one (with the extension protocol i mean) ? i may try to make one but im afraid of the compatibility with other. even if the spec says it is ok, this is unusual so may trigger bugs in remote implementation
<jenda> If you don't get them answered here and now, feel free to come into #ubuntu-marketing at any time and ask there.
<zorglu_> argg wrong cutpaste
<jenda> zorglu_: entirely OT
<jenda> kk
<zorglu_> QUESTION: any plan to produce a study on how to make a living from opensource ? (more people paid to do opensource means more people doing that full time, so a lot more contribution)
<jenda> ANSWER: no
<PriceChild> <Belutz> QUESTION: for offline marketing, do you to use your own money or someone paid for it?
<jenda> zorglu_: please ask in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<jenda> zorglu_: Personal gain is of no concern to the Marketing Team.
<jenda> Belutz: I use my own money.
<mc44> (except for jenda's profit margin)
<PriceChild> <Belutz> QUESTION: is full circle magazine also a marketing team project?
<jenda> Belutz: however, I've managed to use it effectively, so as to earn a certain 'fund' from which I can draw
<jenda> mc44: :)
<jenda> Belutz: it's been communicating with the Marketing Team, and it's very much supported. But it has never explicitly declared itself as such to my knowledge.
<PriceChild> <BHSPitMonkey> QUESTION:  I often end up touting Ubuntu to friends and family members, but when it comes down to actual argumentation vs. other options (Windows), I find I lack a lot of reasons to give (I know that I prefer linux/Ubuntu...);  Are there any resources out there to help learn how to promote effectively?
<beuno> Belutz: some members from the Marketing Team participate in it, but it was started (and is run by) from someone outside the team
<PriceChild> arg I'm rubbish tonight :)
<jenda> BHSPitMonkey: there is whylinuxisbetter.com :)
<jenda> BHSPitMonkey: it's maintained by an Ubuntu person, but it's general in nature.
<beuno> jenda: that link doesn't seem to be correct
<jenda> BHSPitMonkey: That would be a very useful section of the DIY project's HOWTO section
<jenda> beuno: It's correct when I say it's correct ;)
<BHSPitMonkey> ( .net )
<jenda> sorry, it could also be whyislinuxbetter.com or .net or something ;)
<jenda> BHSPitMonkey: thansk ):
<jenda> ehm
<jenda> *thanks :)
<PriceChild> <Belutz> QUESTION: any suggestion for promoting ubuntu to companies/schools/governments?
<jenda> BHSPitMonkey: so, to answer the question clearly - not yet for Ubuntu in particular
<jenda> Belutz: Didn't I say I knew nothing about marketing?
<jenda> Belutz: I have one
<jenda> Belutz: Get your LoCo team interested, and make it come up with a plan.
<beuno> Belutz: the argentina LoCo, for example, is installing Ubuntu in an installfest tomorrow
<jenda> Once that happens - the MT would be very interested in the results and process, and might publish info on it for other LoCos to draw upon.
<jenda> Belutz: Your LoCo is _bound_ to have many talented and qualified people in it who can answer that question on teh local scale much better than I..
<jenda> Any more questions?
<PriceChild> Thanks very much jenda :)
<jenda> I take that as a 'no' :)
<jenda> Thanks for your attention.
<mikesown> were you talking about MOTU?
<PriceChild> <tomtig> QUESTION: Is there any updated ODP presentation for Ubuntu project and I can take and give a presentation with at my LUG?
<habeeb> Marketing.
<PriceChild> jenda, one last one ^
<mikesown> ah, ok
<jenda> and thanks beuno for your help :)
<jenda> tomtig: sorry, not that I know of.
<jenda> tomtig: if you find one, as always, the MT is very interested :)
<beuno> jenda, np.  and if anyone isn't sure on how to approach helping with UWN, feel free to contact me
<jenda> (the DIY project more than anyone else)
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o imbrandon]  by PriceChild
<PriceChild> imbrandon, You around? :)
<Belutz> thanks jenda, thanks beuno :)
<PriceChild> SCHEDULE: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek - SCHEDULE CHANGES, PLEASE SEE THE TIMETABLE || RULES: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules Please respect them || LOGS: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs || Ask questions and chat in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, "QUESTION: <insert question here>/cs o || CURRENT SESSION: Kubuntu - Brandon Holtsclaw
<jenda> Oh, and before I give way to imbrandon... you're all very welcome to hang around in #ubuntu-marketing, and if you have questions unanswered, you might get them answered there, too.
<habeeb> Thanks for the session, jenda .
<Riddell> PriceChild: he doesn't seem to be
<PriceChild> Riddell, arg he wasn't around yesterday either :(
* jenda thanks you
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o jenda]  by ChanServ
<Riddell> mm, hope he's ok
<Riddell> well I'm happy to take question
<Riddell> questions
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o Riddell]  by PriceChild
* ajmitch wonders if he has imbrandon's phone number somewhere
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-classroom:PriceChild] : SCHEDULE: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek - SCHEDULE CHANGES, PLEASE SEE THE TIMETABLE || RULES: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules Please respect them || LOGS: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs || Ask questions and chat in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, "QUESTION: <insert question here>/cs o || CURRENT SESSION: Kubuntu
<PriceChild> Ok this session is supposed to be taken by Brandon. However he seems to be afk and Riddell has offered to take his place. Do we have any questions? Could you introduce yourself Riddell?
<Riddell> hi, I'm Jonathan Riddell
<Riddell> I work on Kubuntu
<Riddell> along with an excellent bunch of the coolest people you'll ever know
<Riddell> who all have a 24 hour party on #kubuntu-devel
<Riddell> with gusty open there's loads of merges to be done so if you're looking for an easy way to help out, that's very welcome
<Riddell> any questions?
<PriceChild> <Belutz> QUESTION: i haven't tried kubuntu 7.04 is desktop effects also available in kubuntu?
<Riddell> it's not on the CD and there's no tick box way to turn it on
<Riddell> that's because compiz doesn't integrate with KDE yet
<Riddell> and also because the proper way to do it is to wait for KDE 4
<Riddell> which will have funky desktop effects built in
<Riddell> http://www.kdedevelopers.org/node/2787
<Riddell> however...
<Riddell> beryl does have kde integration with aquamarine
<Riddell> so you can install beryl and aquamarine and beryl-manager and beryl-kubuntu and get it working just lovely
<Riddell> (I believe, I don't have any hardware that works with it myself)
<nevermind_> ubuntu is amazing, and ive seen many gnu distributions in my life
<Riddell> with beryl and compiz merging that will make it easyer for us to have a tickbox for turning on desktop effects
<Riddell> so hopefully with gusty it'll be simple to do
<auge> hi
<PriceChild> <xerosis> QUESTION: do you feel the need for any more paid developers on kubuntu? if so, what is the likelihood of more?
<nevermind_> hi eye
<Riddell> there's always a need for more developers
<Riddell> that goes for any free software project (and I expect for proprietry software too, although I've never worked with any)
<Riddell> one problem is that trolltech keeps hiring all the elite kde developers
<Riddell> the ones that don't work for suse anyway
<Riddell> canonical only hire the best developers
<Riddell> but I'm keeping my eye out for elite KDE people who need a job and will encourage them to send CVs to canonical
<auge> .oO(pay more money :))
<nevermind_> QUESTION: how about teaching your own developers up from schools or colleges?
<nevermind_> ahh
<Riddell> nevermind_: #ubuntu-classroom-chat please
<nevermind_> yea
<Riddell> then PriceChild can feed it back here :)
<nevermind_> on my way, sorry
<nevermind_> )
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o jenda]  by ChanServ
<jenda> < Tm_T> QUESTION: Will next LTS have KDE4 or still hold on "good old" KDE3 ?
<jenda> Riddell: not him anymore ;)
* jenda ate PriceChild, sorry.
<Riddell> jenda: dunno, if next LTS is gusty+1 then I don't think KDE 4 will be read for LTS treatment
<Riddell> if it's gutsy+2 then maybe, we'll have to see at the time
<jenda> Riddell: Tm_T asked, not I ;)
<Riddell> er, aye
<Riddell> any more questions?
<jenda> < nevermind_> QUESTION: how about teaching your own developers up from schools or colleges?
<Riddell> nevermind_: I'm not sure I understand what you mean
<jenda> nevermind_: feel free to rephrase the question here
<jenda> hm, next, then
<jenda> < xerosis> QUESTION: I appreciate, there's not even been a UDS yet, but what are your personal goals for inclusion in gutsy?
<jenda> Riddell?
<Riddell> well KDE 4 is due to be released shortly after gutsy, so I hope to be in a position to have a KDE 4 Kubuntu CD when 4.0 is out
<jenda> k ;)
<Riddell> also..
<Riddell> improvements to adept to make it match synaptic functionality
<Riddell> make kiosktool work with sudo
<Riddell> porting some of the kubuntu apps to KDE 4 like system settings and guidance
<Riddell> getting an onscreen keyboard since that's something we lack
<Riddell> and our summer of code student is working on a port of gdebi
<Riddell> oh and a port of restricted-manager
<nevermind_> ok, time to read up a bit better on the tutorials for these sessions
<Riddell> other suggestions welcome
<Riddell> nevermind_: did you mean getting university students into kubuntu development?
<nevermind_> not only university students
<nevermind_> more like... offering courses at the teaching centers at cities and such
<Riddell> I'm just one programmer, I'm not a teacher
<nevermind_> base courses like "usage" maybe some admining or networking, maybe some base programming
<Riddell> but canonical is working on a training programme
<Riddell> so you can get trained up in various aspects of ubuntu usage
<nevermind_> yah, but id guess there are some ppls around who may be actually interrested)
<nevermind_> might wanna bring it up at some lug meetings even
<Riddell> I also think that university students are a much under-used resource for free software
<nevermind_> yea
<Riddell> computing science students have to do a dissertation on something which usually ends up written up and forgotten about
<Riddell> I made a programme called Umbrello UML Modeller which has a lot of real world users
<Riddell> recently a university in france had a course where their students worked on Umbrello and KPlato
<Riddell> we got good features
<nevermind_> ive just read some paper of a japanese student who did cpu virtualisation
<jenda> Riddell: you'll prolly have to poke me for each next question ;)
<Riddell> and they got real world experience of code
<nevermind_> theres alot of good papers and ideas out there one could continue to work with
<Riddell> so if you're trying to learn about programming, there's no better way than to code free software
<Riddell> it's a guaranteed A for a uni dissertation
<Riddell> in my experience anyway
<nevermind_> hehehe
<Riddell> jenda: go
<jenda> < Belutz> QUESTION: all the websites i visited always highlights the new features of ubuntu 7.04 and give screenshots of that feature. Is there a website that highlights new features in kubuntu with screenshots?
<Riddell> well, kubuntu.org would
<Riddell> except it's died in the data centre crash that happened earlier today
<Riddell> but I'm sure it'll be up soon
<nevermind_> ouch
<Riddell> https://wiki.kubuntu.org/FeistyFawn/Beta/Kubuntu is a good guide
<Riddell> and the previous Herd ones it links to
<Riddell> thanks to nixternal, he does a great job on them
<Riddell> jenda: yo
<jenda> < Belutz> QUESTION: i haven't tried kubuntu 7.04 is desktop effects also available in kubuntu?
<jenda> gargh
<jenda> sorry
<Riddell> I refer the honourable gentleman to the answer I gave some moments ago
<jenda> < Armagon> QUESTION: What is the best way to go from loving to use KDE, and knowing how to program, but knowing next-to-nothing about programming with KDE or Linux, to becoming a competent kubuntu developer?
<jenda> Riddell: that was my fault
<Riddell> Armagon: find a bug a fix it!
<Riddell> there's lots of bugs in lots of programmes
<Riddell> if one annoys you, fix it
<Riddell> and soon you'll find yourself fixing too many things
<nevermind_> for a real starter, id suggest good books on c and c++
<Riddell> we also like python for kubuntu or ubuntu stuff, python is great
<nevermind_> yea, but python to start with...
<Riddell> try joinging the bugs team and you'll find plenty of small fixes you can help with
<Riddell> and hang around on developers channels (#kubuntu-devel) for help
<Riddell> jenda: yo
<jenda> < auge> Question: When will the postgresql driver in kexi be enabled again?
<Riddell> auge: hmm, I thought it was
<auge> no, it is not in feisty :(
<Riddell> auge: I'm not sure what library is needs, it may not be in main, but if it is there's no reason why not
<Riddell> auge: I'll look out for it when I merge koffice and poke me if it doesn't get fixed in the next month in gutsy
<Riddell> jenda: yo
<auge> Riddell: thank you.
<jenda> < emet> QUESTION: Why don't Ubuntu developers make their software a bit easier to port (Eg: not dependent on GNOME libraries)?
<Riddell> emet: port to what?  most of the programmes are well designed so it's often easy to port to KDE
<Riddell> but if it's a UI app, you have to use some UI library
<Riddell> jenda: yo
<jenda> < samgee> QUESTION: I have recently heard comments that Python is making the desktop sluggish. What are you're comments on that?
<Riddell> samgee: hard to tell, performance is such a subjective thing.  kubuntu has power manager written in python by default now and I've had a couple of complaints that it's too slow compared to the c++ competition but a couple out of our millions of users isn't many
<Riddell> ubiquity seems to struggle in 256MB now, but I don't know if that's because of python, I suspect not
<Riddell> no easy answer to that, although I suspect if we start using lots of different environments things start to get short of memory (openoffice, firefox, mono, python.. ouch)
<jenda> < Belutz> QUESTION: still on the website question, do you know any community/user website that highligths kubuntu features like this one http://philbull.livejournal.com/25596.html (this one is for ubuntu)
<Riddell> fortunatly kubuntu only has two of those :)
<Riddell> jenda: yo
<jenda> Riddell: answered Belutz', too?
<jenda> < emet> QUESTION: Wouldn't the easiest thing be to just include GTK+ with Kubuntu then? Or is that not an option?
<Riddell> Belutz: that page doesn't load.  I don't know of any although blogs usually cover stuff, but if you think a special blog/website is needed for that it would be great to have someone set one up
<Riddell> emet: kindae defeats the purpose of it being a KDE operating system :)
<Riddell> emet: I don't see any advantage in that, KDE has everything we need for a basic operating system (which is all you can fit on 1 CD)
<Riddell> if there's stuff missing, it usually gets added soon enough
<Riddell> jenda: yo
<jenda> 23:40 < Belutz> QUESTION: how do you feel as a kubuntu developer, that the release code name is always refer to ubuntu not kubuntu, so any media that use that code name to highliths new features in a release could mislead the kubuntu users (like i just know now that kubuntu doesn't have desktop effects and restricted manager)
<Riddell> Belutz: we can feel a bit in the shadow of the gnome side
<Riddell> which isn't what anyone wants.  it's one of the reasons why Kubuntu is a Gold sponsor of Akademy, to show our support to KDE
<Riddell> I'd really like to make the branding a bit more fair, I doubt the ubuntu CD will get renamed to gubuntu to give everyone equally silly names
<Riddell> but it would be nice to have an Ubuntu Family brand rather than have the umbrella brand and the gnome CD share the same branding
<Riddell> jenda: yo
<jenda> < apokryphos> QUESTION: Will there be any chance of kickoff in gutsy?
<Riddell> apokryphos: kickoff is tricky to package because it's a fork of kdebase rather than a patch
<Riddell> but from talking to the authors they don't see any reason why we can't package it
<Riddell> they say the diff is small enough to be maintainable
<Riddell> the mono dependency for beagle is my other concern, but I'm told that's a plugin
<Riddell> so it's something we should look at again for gutsy
<Riddell> volunteers welcome
<Riddell> jenda: yo
<jenda> < Belutz> COMMENT: I think canonical should think about promoting two products, ubuntu, kubuntu and/or edubuntu to media not just a code name (version) in general
<Riddell> Belutz: of course I always think canonical should promote kubuntu more :)
<Riddell> especially given some of the commercial successes we've had
<Riddell> I believe there's a deal to ship 100,000 kubuntu desktops in a latin american company happened
<Riddell> and the french parliament
<Riddell> and educational rollouts
<jenda> They're on Kubuntu?
<jenda> (french)
<Slayer_X> my small office runs Kubuntu in 20 desktops ^_^
<Riddell> the french parliament is yes, although the initial publicity never mentioned it
<Riddell> Slayer_X: excellent!
<jenda> < auge> QUESTION: Do you expect KDE4 will rock the house and bring a lot of new users to KDE, especially to kubuntu?
<Riddell> auge: short term, quite possibly not
<Riddell> long term, absolutely
<BlackHand> we have 6 kubuntus in all the laptops (ibook and thinkpads )
<Riddell> I suspect 4.0 won't be a revolution compared to KDE 3, just a slicker version in places
<auge> Riddell: why?
<Riddell> but the platform stuff that's going in is lovely
<auge> ah, ok
<Riddell> auge: because most of the changes so far as under the desktop
<gnrfan> I know very little about KDE really.. all I can tell you is all of this GNOME hackers are always excited to party with Aaron Saigo ;)
<Riddell> plasma may change that, but there's nothing to see yet
<auge> Riddell: ok. And is the porting of the Apps difficult?=
<Riddell> porting of the apps in non-trivial
<jenda> < Belutz> QUESTION: have kubuntu team ever suggest that default desktop for edubuntu should be KDE?
<Riddell> not difficult, but it takes time and care
<Riddell> but aye, KDE 4.0 will lay the ground for the next 5 years very very well
<Riddell> and that will rock the house for the next 5+ years
<Riddell> Belutz: lets not mention that to ogra :)
<Riddell> Belutz: it's so cool to have meduxa rolling out Kubuntu on tens of thousands of desktops in the canary islands schools
<Riddell> for gutsy I have a session registered for making sure all the edubuntu stuff works on kde too
<Riddell> which most of it probably does, I just havn't checked it ever
<Riddell> and I'd like an edubuntu-kde meta package ready to install (but I don't see a need for a CD)
<Riddell> jenda: yo
<jenda> Riddell: no more for you
<jenda> oops
<jenda> there are
<jenda> < emonkey-f> QUESTION: Is there some reference for all this big rollouts like in french parlament?
<Riddell> emonkey-f: no, canonical has a press release but it needs approved by the client and that hasn't happened yet
<Riddell> emonkey-f: you can ask tonio (anthony mercatante), he recently got employed by the company doing it
<Riddell> so, Kubuntu rules, it's taking over the world one country at a time
<Riddell> we have a great community, who I love dearly
<Riddell> plenty of help needed
<jenda> < Belutz> QUESTION: is it possible that ubuntu and kubuntu could have a different release date?
<Riddell> free CDs on shipit of course, hand them out to your friends
<Riddell> Belutz: it's possible but would cause problems and I don't see any advantage in it
<Riddell> oh and come to Akademy
<Riddell> it's going to rock
<Riddell> registration now open
<Riddell> or, come to debconf
<Riddell> but I don't have any spare beds left
<jenda> mmm, bed
<Tm_T> Riddell: empty floor left? ;)
* Riddell dances a jig
* Belutz hugs Riddell for answering all of my questions
<jenda> I'm afraid that's all the questions we'll have tonight  :)
<xerosis> thanks Riddell :)
<Riddell> groovy, thanks aa, guid nicht
<Belutz> Riddell, thanks for a great session
<Tm_T> thanks sir Riddell and good night <3
<Riddell> really, I'm not knighted
<Tm_T> ;)
<Belutz> it's 5 am and i haven't have my sleep :(
<emonkey-f> Riddell, thx for your answers. 
<Tm_T> I know you don't like it, only reason for using it :)
<Lure> all invited to #kubuntu-devel ;-)
<auge> thanks Riddell
<deniz_ogut> Thank you Riddell. Thanks to all "teachers". Great school day!
#ubuntu-classroom 2007-04-27
<auge> night
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-classroom:PriceChild] : The Ubuntu Open Week continues at 15:00 UTC || SCHEDULE: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek - SCHEDULE CHANGES, PLEASE SEE THE TIMETABLE || RULES: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules Please respect them || LOGS: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs || Ask questions and chat in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, "QUESTION: <insert question here>
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-oooo elkbuntu imbrandon jenda PriceChild]  by PriceChild
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o Riddell]  by ChanServ
<KalleDK_Lap> rs. 
<KalleDK_Lap> 
<KalleDK_Lap> Wuhu :p
<KalleDK_Lap> !hi ranf
<ubotu> Sorry, I don't know anything about hi ranf - try searching on http://bots.ubuntulinux.nl/factoids.cgi
<ubunt1> someonehere
<ubuntu> hehe ubuntu is registered
<ubuntu> yestarday it was not.
<leninz> this is the curent one http://www.pastebin.ca/460401
<jrib> leninz: k, have you installed libglib2.0-dev ?
<leninz> I don't see in in the package manager
<leninz> I have compiled one though
<leninz> I got the glib2.6 source and compiled it
<leninz> I just don't know how to make sure it works
<jrib> leninz: pkg-config won't pick it up (I think)
<jrib> leninz: pastebin your sources.list
<leninz> it didin't give me any errors after I ran make install
<leninz> http://www.pastebin.ca/460410
<leninz> I ran pkg-config --cflags glib-2.0
<leninz> and another one too
<jrib> leninz: if you don't hilight me, I won't notice you said something
<jrib> leninz: what error do you get when you do: sudo apt-get install libglib2.0-dev
<leninz> none
<jrib> leninz:
<jrib> leninz: ah ok, no more errors?
<leninz> ok, hold on, let me see if atk will work
<leninz> the atk still gives the same error
<leninz> says glib is not installed
<jrib> leninz: what are you doing with atk?
<jrib> atk is in the repos too
<leninz> you mean it comes with that package?
<jrib> leninz: no, but it's packaged
<jrib> !info libatk1.0-0 dapper
<ubotu> libatk1.0-0: The ATK accessibility toolkit. In component main, is optional. Version 1.11.4-0ubuntu1 (dapper), package size 69 kB, installed size 188 kB
<leninz> ok, so what do I do now, http://www.pastebin.ca/460425 here
<leninz> I need GTK
<leninz> now
<leninz> how do I check if they are installed?
<jrib> leninz: this stuff is in the repos, just search for a package with  "lib" "gtk" and "dev" in the name
<leninz> so you mean I don't have to compile them?
<jrib> leninz: right
<jrib> !compiling | leninz
<ubotu> leninz: Compiling software from source? Read the tips at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/CompilingSoftware (But remember to search for pre-built !packages first: not all !repositories are enabled by default!)
<jrib> that might help too
<leninz> 1. How do I do it? 2. what about cairo ?
<jrib> leninz: how do you do what?
<leninz> search the packages
<jrib> !apt | leninz
<ubotu> leninz: APT is the Advanced Package Tool, which together with dpkg forms the basic Ubuntu package management toolkit. Short apt-get manual: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/AptGetHowto - Also see !Synaptic (Gnome) or !Adept (KDE)
<jrib> leninz: basically, you can do this:  apt-cache search foo bar
<jrib> and it will search package descriptions and names for "foo" and "bar"
<jrib> leninz: or you can search just names like this:  apt-cache search -n foo bar
<leninz> yes, thank you, let me try to install all that, I'll get back to you in  a while
<ubuntu> what is this
<jrib> ubuntu: welcome
<ubuntu> jrib thanks i i'm all day here.
<jrib> ubuntu: ah, well then you know that classes take place here (like the ones for OpenWeek).  When that's not happening, some helpers from #ubuntu like to use the channel to help users in a place with less traffic than #ubuntu
<ubuntu> ???
<ubuntu> from ubuntu i'm banned
<leninz> I'm back with some more errors
<leninz> http://www.pastebin.ca/460534
<leninz> I installed libgtk2.0-dev
<leninz> !info gtk2
<ubotu> Package gtk2 does not exist in feisty
<leninz> !info GTK+ 2.0
<ubotu> Package gtk+ does not exist in feisty
<leninz> !info GTK
<ubotu> Package gtk does not exist in feisty
<someothernick> !build-essential
<ubotu> Compiling software from source? Read the tips at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/CompilingSoftware (But remember to search for pre-built !packages first: not all !repositories are enabled by default!)
<nalioth> @find gtk+
<leninz> can someone help me, I'm getting this error http://www.pastebin.ca/460534
<someothernick> do you have build-essential installed?
<leninz> no I don't
<leninz> instaling now
<leninz> still same error
<someothernick> what are u compiling?
<leninz> configuring wxwidgets for wxJavaScript
<leninz> I installed libgtk2.0-dev
<someothernick> http://www.wxwidgets.org/downloads/
<someothernick> you could add the repo and install
<leninz> add what?
<leninz> I already got it
<leninz> why does this happen, I got warnings about jpeg libraries, but after I installed them the warning disappeared
<leninz> but no matter how many times I install libgtk2.0-dev I get the sam error
<someothernick> maybe there is another dependency
<leninz> what acould it be?
<someothernick> 2.8.1 is in feisty repos
<leninz> what should I look for?
<someothernick> wx2.8
<leninz> I got that installed already
<someothernick> :s
<leninz> same error
<leninz> this is driving me crazy
<someothernick> :/
<someothernick> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=29106
<someothernick> maybe this will help
<someothernick> libwxgtk2.8-0 libwxgtk2.8-dev
<leninz> I have those installed, that's what's crazy!
<someothernick> :/
<leninz> what could be wrong
<someothernick> does install.txt mention any other dependencies?
<leninz> webmonkey, nspr, gtk+2, expat
<leninz> wxwidgets
<leninz> I got all those
<someothernick> what if u ./configure --with-gtk ?
<delmorep> does build-essential come preinstalled in feisty? ive been upgrading since dapper.... is there a default fiesty list somewhere?
<leninz> I got build-essentials and --with-gtk has no effect
<astecp> leninz: have you checked that pkg-config and/or gtk-config return sensible results?
<leninz> pkg-config --version gtk
<leninz> pkg-config --modversion gtk+-2.0
<leninz> returns:
<leninz> Package gdk-@gdktarget@-2.0 was not found in the pkg-config search path.
<leninz> Perhaps you should add the directory containing `gdk-@gdktarget@-2.0.pc'
<leninz> to the PKG_CONFIG_PATH environment variable
<leninz> Package 'gdk-@gdktarget@-2.0', required by 'GTK+', not found
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o elkbuntu]  by ChanServ
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o elkbuntu]  by ChanServ
<yharrow_mobile> hey guys
<ubuntu> ubuntu work slow
* someothernick work slow too
<ubuntu> that i say
<ubuntu> how ram do you have
<someothernick> 5
<someothernick> usually coffee helps
<ubuntu> 5???
<ubuntu> man in the moment i play hentai games
<Elephantman> hello :)
<bluesky> nobody here now?i've lots of  questions,in trouble ?who can help me ?
<harrisony> !support | bluesky
<ubotu> bluesky: support is The official ubuntu support channel is #ubuntu. Also see http://ubuntu.com/support and http://ubuntuforums.org
<bluesky> thanks ,i'll try
<bluesky> But I am afraid I can't understand that
<someothernick> #ubuntu ?
<bluesky> Yes
<someothernick> you need another language?
<bluesky> I knew only a little Enlish
<bluesky> Yes
<someothernick> what language?
<bluesky> Chinese
<niekie> Try #ubuntu-ch :)
<someothernick> !ch
<ubotu> Sorry, I don't know anything about ch - try searching on http://bots.ubuntulinux.nl/factoids.cgi
<niekie> Err...
<niekie> Nope, not that, sorry.
<someothernick> !ci
<ubotu> Sorry, I don't know anything about ci - try searching on http://bots.ubuntulinux.nl/factoids.cgi
<niekie> That's Switzerland, haha.
<someothernick> :/
<tonytiger> heh
<niekie> Sorry about that.
<bluesky>  Try #ubuntu-ch??only 9 person!
<PriceChild> hmm there is a chinese channel...
<PriceChild> !en
<ubotu> The #ubuntu, #kubuntu and #xubuntu channels are english only. For a complete list of channels in other languages, please visit http://help.ubuntu.com/community/InternetRelayChat
<niekie> bluesky: sorry, Ubuntu-ch is Switzerland.. :|
<astecp> -zh
<niekie> My mistake.
<PriceChild> !cn
<ubotu> For Ubuntu help in Chinese  #ubuntu-cn  #ubuntu-tw   #ubuntu-hk
<niekie> Ah.
<someothernick> oh
<bluesky> Thank you
<harrisony> bluesky: hope you can read that as i cant :P
<bluesky> i can understand
<bluesky> but this atmosphere,I like it!
<someothernick> :)
<bluesky> harrisony
<harrisony> bluesky
<bluesky> can we be friend?
<bluesky> I want to learn something
<harrisony> bluesky: hmm..sure i dont see why we cant be friends
<bluesky> great!
<jrib> leninz: that looks like some kind of bug in the program
<bluesky> My amule's Kad can not connect,what should I do?
<bluesky> nobody?
<harrisony> !cn
<ubotu> For Ubuntu help in Chinese  #ubuntu-cn  #ubuntu-tw   #ubuntu-hk
<harrisony> classroom is mainly for
<harrisony> !openweek
<ubotu> openweek is Ubuntu is hosting a series of introductory sessions for people who want to join the Ubuntu community, which all takes place in a week. See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek for schedules, logs, and instructions.
<jjj> hello!
<hjmf> !schedule Madrid
<ubotu> Sorry, I don't know anything about schedule madrid - try searching on http://bots.ubuntulinux.nl/factoids.cgi
<LjL> @schedule Madrid
<ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Madrid: 01 May 17:00: Kernel Team | 01 May 20:00: Mozilla Team | 02 May 14:00: Edubuntu | 02 May 22:00: Xubuntu Developers | 03 May 18:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 08 May 22:00: Technical Board
<Schalken> @schedule Melbourne
<ubotu> Schedule for Australia/Melbourne: 02 May 01:00: Kernel Team | 02 May 04:00: Mozilla Team | 02 May 22:00: Edubuntu | 03 May 06:00: Xubuntu Developers | 04 May 02:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 09 May 06:00: Technical Board
<sampbar> @schedule London
<ubotu> Schedule for Europe/London: 01 May 16:00: Kernel Team | 01 May 19:00: Mozilla Team | 02 May 13:00: Edubuntu | 02 May 21:00: Xubuntu Developers | 03 May 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 08 May 21:00: Technical Board
<aborilov> @schedule Moscow
<ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Moscow: 01 May 19:00: Kernel Team | 01 May 22:00: Mozilla Team | 02 May 16:00: Edubuntu | 03 May 00:00: Xubuntu Developers | 03 May 20:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 09 May 00:00: Technical Board
<Elephantman> @schedule paris
<ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Paris: 01 May 17:00: Kernel Team | 01 May 20:00: Mozilla Team | 02 May 14:00: Edubuntu | 02 May 22:00: Xubuntu Developers | 03 May 18:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 08 May 22:00: Technical Board
<silwol> @schedule vienna
<ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Vienna: 01 May 17:00: Kernel Team | 01 May 20:00: Mozilla Team | 02 May 14:00: Edubuntu | 02 May 22:00: Xubuntu Developers | 03 May 18:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 08 May 22:00: Technical Board
<festival_gaim> hi
<elkbuntu> almost time people!
* Belutz cheers for elkbuntu 
<elkbuntu> still writing notes for the class :
<elkbuntu> be done in a minute or so
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o elkbuntu]  by ChanServ
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-classroom:elkbuntu] : The Ubuntu Open Week continues at 15:00 UTC || SCHEDULE: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek - SCHEDULE CHANGES, PLEASE SEE THE TIMETABLE || RULES: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules Please respect them || LOGS: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs || Ask questions and chat in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, "QUESTION: <insert question here> || Current session: LoCo Teams with Melissa Draper
<elkbuntu> Hello everyone! Welcome to the LoCo Teams introduction session.
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+m]  by elkbuntu
<elkbuntu> My name is Melissa Draper, and I am the LoCo Team Contact for the Ubuntu Australian LoCo Team. I am also one of the project leads for the LoCo Project. I have a wiki page at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MelissaDraper that introduces me in more detail.
<elkbuntu> Over the course of this session, we will be covering a number of aspects of LoCo Teams, such as:
<elkbuntu> * What are LoCo Teams?
<elkbuntu> * How can I find my LoCo Team?
<elkbuntu> * What can I do if I cannot find a LoCo Team for me?
<elkbuntu> * How can I get involved?
<elkbuntu> * What cool things can LoCo Teams do?
<elkbuntu> * Who leads the teams?
<elkbuntu> * Approved teams vs New teams
<elkbuntu> First off, "What are LoCo Teams?"
<elkbuntu> Actually, before i get into it, a reminder that questions are to be asked in #ubuntu-classroom-chat and prefixed with QUESTION:
<elkbuntu> Ok... LoCo is short for Local Community, which is fairly self explanatory. LoCo Teams are hence Local Community Teams. For example, the LoCo Team I am contact for is Ubuntu-Au, and we are based in Australia.
<elkbuntu> The teams are run by the people, for the people. They are *not* run by Canonical, however Canonical is highly supportive of them and will provide assistance. We will cover the assistance offered later.
<elkbuntu> Mostly, one LoCo is sufficient for a country, but some countries have chapters for states or regions due to the size of the country and/or population. We do prefer there to be a single national encompassing Team however, for communication sake.
<elkbuntu> This means that they are teams based around certain locations that act as, among other things, contact points for people wanting to get involved in Ubuntu and the rest of the *buntu family of projects. They are a great stepping stone to the worldwide community.
<elkbuntu> They are also excellent points of local advocacy, support (especially if they're based in non-english speaking areas) and all things of that manner.
<elkbuntu> As such, due to the localised nature of these teams, they are also an excellent way to find someone else near you, that uses Ubuntu, and hence 'gets it'. We all know it can be quite lonely as the only person you know who uses Linux, let alone Ubuntu.
<elkbuntu> Closely related to LoCo Teams are Language teams. These are often a group of LoCos that speak the same language and their primary focus is support in that language. Some people consider these to be LoCos in themselves, as they generally come under the LoCo umbrella. There are differing opinions of this, however.
<elkbuntu> One aspect of LoCo Teams that we find is most important, is that they enable and encourage people to interact with other Ubuntu users that are actually near them, as opposed to the other side of the world.
<elkbuntu> A single person with ideas is nothing compared to a dozen equally imaginative people :)
<elkbuntu> To find your nearest LoCo Team, please take a look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoTeamList and find a team that covers your area.
<elkbuntu> If you cannot find a team, or you do and it is unfortunately inactive, the best thing you can do is start a new team, or revive the inactive one. You do not need to know much about Linux or Ubuntu to do this, just how to be a part of a group.
<elkbuntu> I will not go into the specifics of starting teams here today, but tomorrow at 19:00 UTC, Rich Johnson is running a session called "Creating a LoCo Team" which is perfect for anyone in this situation.
<elkbuntu> Meanwhile, for those of you who have found an appropriate team, the easiest way to get involved is simply to participate.
<elkbuntu> Join the IRC channel, post on the forum, etc. Once you get your foot in the door and make an effort, the rest usually writes itself. Many teams openly welcome any assistance with providing support, translating, and advocacy. You don't need to know much to advocate, just that Ubuntu rocks :)
<elkbuntu> Showing you care and putting a little bit of effort in goes a long long way to building a bond, and you will be appreciated.
<elkbuntu> LoCo Teams are effectively the backbone of the Ubuntu Community. As the local community representation, they possess great power in building awareness and user numbers.
<elkbuntu> For many places that speak languages other than english, providing support in local language, and translating are invaluable, as we all know, not everyone has perfect grasp of the English language (heck, this even includes supposedly native English speakers ;) )
<elkbuntu> The more languages Ubuntu can be available in, or that people can get support in, the better chance it has to succeed.
<elkbuntu> However, advocacy, I believe, is the strongest aspect of a LoCo. Who else is in a better position to reach out to an area, than a group that is already in that area.
<elkbuntu> There's a number of ways LoCos can help advocate. Simply spreading the word is a great start, but there's lots of group activities that can be really powerful when done well.
<elkbuntu> Putting posters up on community notice boards (with permission of course!), running stalls/booths at fairs and expos, writing to local media outlets, petitioning your local and national government and many more things, all help.
<elkbuntu> There is an extensive wiki section at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoTeamKnowledgeBase that documents alot of things that people have tried, with information about what worked well and what to avoid, along with some really cool tips.
<elkbuntu> So how does a team get together, functioning and motivated to do things such as this? Well, that is up to each individual team. Each team has a person who fills the role called "Team Contact".
<elkbuntu> These people are responsible for being the communication point for their teams, in this situation, their LoCo. This person not only communicates with other teams and the Ubuntu community at large (Speaking/writing English is a prerequisite for this), but often (but not always) acts as a leader figure.
<elkbuntu> Some teams have multiple contacts, or a panel of leaders, but the general purpose is the same. It is a matter of how this works best for your particular team. I personally recommend that leaders be elected by other members of the team if possible.
<elkbuntu> Once a team is established, they can go for "Approved" status, which means they more or less become and official team in the project.
<elkbuntu> Approved teams get special support in terms of a CD allocation with each release, hosting for team websites, and other random goodies.
<elkbuntu> New and Unofficial teams (which every team starts out as) also get help to get them started. They are entitled to a mailing list and an IRC channel under the Ubuntu namespace on this Freenode network. If they need, they are also entitled to request a subforum at Ubuntuforums.org
<elkbuntu> Ok, i'll now take some questions, so get asking :)
<elkbuntu> <nealmcb> QUESTION: What work is going on to facilitate and promote "best practices" in web site deployment for LoCo web sites?  Common designs or apps for sharing photos, synchronizing wiki calendars with ical, etc?
<elkbuntu> The theme used on the main Ubuntu.com site is available if you ask the right people.
<elkbuntu> As for what you want to do with the site, that's generally up to you so long as it within the CoC guidelines.
<elkbuntu> Teams have a certain amount of autonomy for their sites :)
<elkbuntu> <nealmcb> QUESTION addendum: ... and good models for how members can collaborate on the loco web sites using lanuchpad-based authentication.  E.g. openid support in launchpad?  Or bzr models for source control and a way to push out a new page?
<elkbuntu> For launchpad questions, you'd need to ask the guys in #launchpad :)
<elkbuntu> The main thing is to keep things open for the team to contribute however they can.
<elkbuntu> <spr0k3t> QUESTION: I'd like to get involved in my LoCo but it seems the membership has been rather lax for more than a year... What do you recommend to revive the luster of a faded group, or should a new group be started in its stead?
<elkbuntu> If you cannot find any trace of members that were previously in the team, especially if you cannot find the team contact, it's usually a good idea to go about organising to have control of resources such as the launchpad team and mailing list transferred to someone who is active.
<elkbuntu> Richard will talk more about this at 19:00 UTC tomorrow :)
<elkbuntu> <CheshireViking> QUESTION: What level of experience is needed to get involved in a LoCo, do you need to be an Ubuntu expert who's used it & Linux for years, or do new users get involved?
<elkbuntu> CheshireViking, the only experience you need is the experience that made you like Ubuntu. Even someone who can't sysadmin for the life of them can advocate open source software :)
* elkbuntu is one of those people who cant sysadmin to save her life, or program worth a damn :)
<elkbuntu> <nealmcb> QUESTION: The Colorado LoCo is planning an "Ubucon/Colorado" which will be an all-day, local self-organizing conference, like Barcamp.  Besides the Ubucon/Sevilla, have other locos tried this sort of thing?  We've had local Barcamps which are a blast, e.g. http://barcamp.org/BarCampBoulder  and a local codecamp is coming up also: http://www.frontrangecodecamp.com/
<elkbuntu> nealmcb, you're probably worth contacting a fellow called John Mark Walker. I'll PM his email address to you later :)
<elkbuntu> he was an organiser for the first two ubucons, in Mountain View CA and Boston (iirc)
<elkbuntu> <DoctorOwl> QUESTION: You mentioned that approved LoCo teams get CD allocations and hosting for team web sites.  Are the teams "approved" in that sense by Canonical, or phrased in another way, what relationship does Canonical have with LoCos if any.
<elkbuntu> The teams go before the Community Council, at one of the regular meetings in #ubuntu-meeting. The team has to prove they're active, have done a few activities, and not riddled with infighting
<elkbuntu> <DoctorOwl> QUESTION: CoC guidelines?
<elkbuntu> CoC is an acronym for the Ubuntu Code of Conduct
<elkbuntu> http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct
<elkbuntu> <samgee> QUESTION: Can organisations as a whole (i.e. schools) become a member of a LoCo or do they need to pick a representative (i.e. the principal)?
<elkbuntu> Hmm, good question.
<elkbuntu> I'd personally recommend for a group as large as a school to have a representative/spokesperson. The IT person or principal is probably the ideal candidate for this
<elkbuntu> If the group/organisation is only like half a dozen members large, then it's probably safe for them to each be their individual selves
<elkbuntu> <j1mc> QUESTION: I'm part of an active loco, but we haven't done so much to advocate ubuntu outside of the linux/hacker community, we've mostly tried to learn about ubuntu collectively, and support it through collective efforts.  What have some locos done to advocate ubuntu that has worked well for them?
<elkbuntu> Attending fairs, expos, conferences and such is a really good way. the belgium team has had great success doing this.
<elkbuntu> the knowledgebase i linked to earlier has lots of things teams can do in it.
<elkbuntu> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoTeamKnowledgeBase
<elkbuntu> <DoctorOwl> You could tell us the story behind the stickers you got, hehe.
<elkbuntu> I'm assuming you mean the ones system76.com provide
<elkbuntu> system76.com will offer to send loco representatives a bunch of 'powered by' stickers to distribute. they're cool guys :)
<elkbuntu> <Schalken> QUESTION: When does it become necessary for a LoCo team to break up into smaller ones, for each region in a country, for example?
<elkbuntu> That is for each team to decide. The teams in the US are broken at state level, mainly because of population. However, countries that are huge (the US already had this factor too) may validate it for accessibility purposes, while countries with multiple languages may choose to split like that.
<elkbuntu> meanwhile we still prefer one team per country with chapters underneath the team. it's way more sane that way.
<elkbuntu> <bababian> QUESTION: Has any LoCos ever tried to advertise Ubuntu in newspapers and radios?
<elkbuntu> I dont know about adverts in newspapers, but some locos have gotten stories in papers and magazines.
<elkbuntu> there's also adverts running in the german metro at the moment, and around the time of the first ubucon, there were billboards in the silicon valley in the US
<elkbuntu> <DoctorOwl> QUESTION: Can you explain a little more what the "Community Council" is: Is it governed by Canonical?
<elkbuntu> The community council is a representative body. While there are some Canonical employees on the board, including Mark, there's also volunteers on it.
<elkbuntu> It is not governed by Canonical, no.
<elkbuntu> there is info on it at: http://www.ubuntu.com/community/processes/council
<elkbuntu> <samgee> QUESTION: Can you measure the success of a LoCo teams? If so, is there maybe some friendly competition going on between the teams?
<elkbuntu> Um, if there is any friendly rivalry, i havent heard about it, but so long as it stays friendly, i wont discourage it. rivalry is quite motivating :)
<elkbuntu> Measuring the success of volunteer teams is really really hard. It's like trying to guess how many times Ubuntu was downloaded worldwide -- way too many variables.
<elkbuntu> However, the success of a loco requires activity, and keeping active and visible is probably the best success of all.
<elkbuntu> <Schalken> QUESTION: What can a LoCo team do as a group to help with the development of Ubuntu and its software?
<elkbuntu> the *best* thing a loco can do is translate :)
<elkbuntu> while theres a ton of translations in rosetta (the translator application in Launchpad), most of them still have work.. and of course as things change, there's new sections to be done.
<elkbuntu> Teams can also make localised versions of Ubuntu, with their native language as default, and with applications useful to locals
<elkbuntu> Teams often work really well with sub-teams. a translation subteam, a localisation subteam, etc
<elkbuntu> but of course, local support is also very important :)
<elkbuntu> <DoctorOwl> QUESTION: WHY are you and others part of a LoCo group?
<elkbuntu> Haha! Because we *LOVE* Ubuntu. We found the freedom of Linux, and we really want others to share that experience.
<elkbuntu> <Schalken> QUESTION: Does "Australian" have its own language pack?
<elkbuntu> We do actually. While I'm fuzzy on the details, it's something like a sub-translation under the en_gb or something
<elkbuntu> It means that dictionaries can contain local words and place names, non-american spelling ;) and so forth.
<elkbuntu> <samgee> lol, does it have a lot of 'mate' in it?
<elkbuntu> considering 'mate' also applies to the actions by which baby animals are made, yes. 'mate' is in most English language dictionaries.
<elkbuntu> <bababian> QUESTION: How can a LoCo work with NGOs?
<elkbuntu> working with hmm. trying to getting sponsorship from NGOs that are into that sort of thing is probably worth a try
<elkbuntu> i'm not really sure how one would mess with them other than that :-/
<elkbuntu> irvin> QUESTION: do other teams have an office address?
<elkbuntu> office address? some may have a post office box, but i dont know of any teams with premises
<elkbuntu> <Pricey> QUESTION: What's your favourite thing that you've done with your LoCo?
<elkbuntu> LCA!
<elkbuntu> linux.conf.au 2007 rocked :)
<elkbuntu> i organised a booth, and we ran it and were quite popular :)
<elkbuntu> i'm quite away from the majority of my team, since im in a non-metro area, so it was the best thing i've personally done with them
<elkbuntu> <DoctorOwl> QUESTION: Say you have a problem installing Ubuntu, is it best to go to a LoCo team for help - or somewhere else?
<elkbuntu> If you're not too great with english, your loco is probably the better option. if you're competent with english, probably #ubuntu or the forums
<elkbuntu> <Schalken> QUESTION: How might a business, small or large, interact with their LoCo to help spread Ubuntu?
<elkbuntu> Sponsorship. Posters in their premises. Using it themselves. there's a huge number of ways :)
<elkbuntu> system76 actually sponsor the colorado team i believe
<elkbuntu> we also have an addendum to the 'where to go' question: <Pricey> elkbuntu, or answers.launchpad.net/ubuntu ;)
<elkbuntu> thanks pricey :)
<elkbuntu> I think that's about all for tonight folks. I'll be running another session tomorrow at 21:00 UTC  if you need more answers :)
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-classroom:elkbuntu] : The Ubuntu Open Week continues at 15:00 UTC || SCHEDULE: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek - SCHEDULE CHANGES, PLEASE SEE THE TIMETABLE || RULES: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules Please respect them || LOGS: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs || Ask questions and chat in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, "QUESTION: <insert question here> || Current session: Introduction to Launchpad - Matthew Revell
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o Pricey]  by ChanServ
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o Pricey]  by ChanServ
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o mrevell]  by ChanServ
<mrevell> Welcome to the "Introduction to Launchpad" session! Thanks for attending.
<mrevell> Over the next hour, I'll take you through what makes Launchpad special.
<mrevell> I'll also invite you to read through the logs of previous Launchpad-related sessions in Ubuntu Open Week.
<mrevell> And towards the end of the session I'll be very happy to answer any questions that we have time for.
<mrevell> Let's start with an overview of what Launchpad is:
<mrevell> Launchpad is a web-based application to help people work on free software projects. It has five main tools:
<mrevell> * bug tracker
<mrevell> * code hosting
<mrevell> * translations
<mrevell> * blueprint tracker
<mrevell> * answer tracker.
<mrevell> What makes Launchpad really special, though, is its approach to collaboration.
<mrevell> Launchpad was originally built to make it easy to create Ubuntu.
<mrevell> Ubuntu is made up of the work of hundreds of different communities.
<mrevell> Launchpad makes it easy for those communities to work together when they face shared problems.
<mrevell> Take a look at https://launchpad.net/~matthew.revell
<mrevell> This is my Launchpad profile page. Try not to laugh at the bad photo :)
<mrevell> However bad it is, that photo's pretty useful. It appears on pages of my work and makes it easy to see what I've worked on.
<mrevell> On my profile page, you can get an idea of what interests me and what work I've done in Launchpad.
<mrevell> The "Most active in" section shows you which projects I've worked on recently and what sort of work I did.
<mrevell> Unsurprisingly, Launchpad is top of my list!
<mrevell> The two icons there show you that I've recently worked on bugs and blueprints related to Launchpad.
<mrevell> You can also see how to contact me and which teams I've joined.
<mrevell> Launchpad teams make it easy for groups of people to organise themselves. Anyone can create a team.
<mrevell> Teams can do just about anything that an individual can. For example: they can join other teams or act as the bug contact for a project.
<mrevell> Before we get down to the individual parts of Launchpad, I'd like to explain some terminology.
<mrevell> Communities are groups of people who work on software. They're not necessarily the originators of that software.
<mrevell> For example: there are many communities who work with code from Firefox. There's the original Firefox team, the Debian packagers, the Ubuntu Firefox/Mozilla team, the Epiphany team and so on.
<mrevell> 
<mrevell> Okay, let's look at the Launchpad bug tracker. It's probably the Launchpad tool that you know best and you may know it by its old name, Malone.
<mrevell> You probably know that free software projects share code all the time. Take the Jokosher audio editor, for example. It relies on code from Gstreamer, Python, Gnome and other projects.
<mrevell> Similarly, Linux distributions take the work of free software projects and package them up for people to use. They sometimes make changes to the code and also act as a frontline for when people report bugs.
<mrevell> All of this means that bugs in free software aren't always reported to the people who wrote the code in the first place.
<mrevell> With Launchpad, you can follow a bug as it affects each individual community.
<mrevell> For example, let's look at: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/92345
<mrevell> At the top of the page is a table that shows the communities that this bug affects.
<mrevell> Each community sets its own status and importance for the bug but can share the same comment history.
<mrevell> At a glance, you can see if someone has found a solution to the bug.
<mrevell> You can also follow the full conversation that has taken place so far.
<mrevell> With bug 92345, you may have noticed that two of the communities affected don't even use Launchpad.
<mrevell> That's no problem.
<mrevell> Much like your blog feed reader, Launchpad follows bugs in other bug trackers, including BugZilla, Roundup, Debian Bug Tracker and Sourceforge.
<mrevell> Okay, so it's really cool that Launchpad makes bug tracking a hundred times more useful for free software projects.
<mrevell> But it also gets the basics right too.
<mrevell> Here's a short list of some of the cool stuff that Launchpad's bug tracker has going for it:
<mrevell> * Easy to use web interface.
<mrevell> * Email interface.
<mrevell> * Bug tagging - create ad-hoc groups of bugs.
<mrevell> * Fully hosted service - no sysadmin work.
<mrevell> * Works with other parts of Launchpad, such as code hosting and the blueprint tracker.
<mrevell> Bjorn, part of the team that looks after the Launchpad Bug Tracker, gave a session at the beginning of Ubuntu Open Week on triaging bugs with Launchpad.
<mrevell> You can find the session log at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/openweekfeisty/triaging
<mrevell> Ok, onto Code Hosting.
<mrevell> Launchpad works with the Bazaar version control system. Bazaar is a distributed version control system.
<mrevell> That means everyone has their own code repository (called a branch in Bazaar terms).
<mrevell> Unlike with CVS or Subversion, you don't need special permissions to start work on someone else's code.
<mrevell> Instead, you create your own branch and work on that.
<mrevell> It's then easy to merge your changes back into the original branch.
<mrevell> Hosting a branch publicly is really easy. All you need is a standard web server.
<mrevell> You can find out more about Bazaar in the log of Martin Pool's session from Monday
<mrevell> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/openweekfeisty/Bazaar
<mrevell> Launchpad makes Bazaar even more useful.
<mrevell> One of the problems with distributed version control is that it can be hard to find all the branches associated with your project.
<mrevell> Launchpad solves that.
<mrevell> It has a browsable code catalogue for each project.
<mrevell> Anyone can register their branch to show up in your project's branch list.
<mrevell> You can see how active each branch is, read the developer's commit messages and create your own branch at any time.
<mrevell> Importantly, Launchpad can either directly host the branches or mirror them.
<mrevell> This means they're always available for anyone to create their own branch.
<mrevell> Take a look at the branches for Ubuntu's Update Manager:
<mrevell> https://code.launchpad.net/update-manager
<mrevell> You can see the main development branch but people have also created their own branches to work on their priorities.
<mrevell> Bazaar makes it really easy for development to take different directions, while Launchpad helps make sure it's all accessible from one place.
<mrevell> Now, take a look at the Bazaar project's branches:
<mrevell>  https://code.launchpad.net/bzr
<mrevell> Notice the small bug icons?
<mrevell> If you created a branch to fix specific bugs, you can link the branch to the relevant bug reports.
<mrevell> With a link between a bug report and the branch that fixes it, everyone can now easily get hold of a bug's solution.
<mrevell> On that page you can also see several branches registered to the Bazaar Developers team.
<mrevell> These are team branches.
<mrevell> They're hosted centrally, on Launchpad, and only members of the Bazaar Developers team can commit to them.
<mrevell> Team branches are ideal for working together on a major line of development.
<mrevell> Anyone can still create their branch, though.
<mrevell> Finally, Launchpad can make a continuous import of almost any CVS or Subversion repository hosted on the internet.
<mrevell> This means that you can create your own Bazaar branch of the code and your own line of development.
<mrevell> With Bazaar's bzr-svn plugin, and the appropriate commit access, you can even commit your code back to Subversion repositories.
<mrevell> You can find out more about hosting code with Launchpad in the log of Jono Lange's session "Hosting Code with Launchpad" - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/openweekfeisty/lpbazaar
<mrevell> Onto Translations!
<mrevell> Launchpad Translations, formerly known as Rosetta, takes the pain out of translating software into different languages.
<mrevell> Much of the free software world uses GNU's GetText.
<mrevell> Developers put markers in their code to show where GetText should insert a string of interface text.
<mrevell> GetText uses a certain file format to store translated strings.
<mrevell> Although it's simple enough, the truth is that translators shouldn't have to be coders.
<mrevell> Launchpad shields translators from the underlying complexities and gives them a simple web interface.
<mrevell> Launchpad currently works with 237 languages and has more than 760,000 strings in its database.
<mrevell> Naturally, the same phrases occur in the interfaces of many applications.
<mrevell> When someone is translating an application, Launchpad checks its database to see if it has already seen those strings in that language. If it has, it suggests them to the translator.
<mrevell> Launchpad also gives teams three different ways to ensure they get the right balance between control of translations and encouraging community participation.
<mrevell> From fully open - where anyone can translate - to restricted, where only pre-appointed translators can make translations.
<mrevell> Of course, development work usually starts on a new release while the stable release is still in use.
<mrevell> Launchpad allows multiple translation efforts to take place concurrently for the same project.
<mrevell> So, translation can begin on a new release and continue on the stable release.
<mrevell> You can find out more about Launchpad Translations in Carlos and Danilo's session log at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/openweekfeisty/lproseta
<mrevell> Onto the Blueprint Tracker!
<mrevell> Launchpad's Blueprint Tracker is unique.
<mrevell> It helps you track chunks of work associated with your project.
<mrevell> Many of you will have come across blueprints when working on Ubuntu.
<mrevell> A blueprint can be anything from a single sentence to a full specification, with information about who is involved and where it fits into your project's roadmap.
<mrevell> Anyone can create a blueprint for a project.
<mrevell> This is a great way for everyone to get involved in shaping the future of a project.
<mrevell> However, the project's leaders get to choose the priority of each blueprint.
<mrevell> Take a look at https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu
<mrevell> Here you can see all the blueprints associated with Ubuntu. Not only can you see the priority of each blueprint but also:
<mrevell> * Definition status - how well thought out and presented is the idea? Is it a full spec or just a one line scribble?
<mrevell> * Progress - has work begun on it? Is a beta available? Is it delayed?
<mrevell> * Assignee - who's responsible for making sure the blueprint is implemented?
<mrevell> * Release - which release is this blueprint targeted to?
<mrevell> With the Blueprint Tracker, you can also organise meetings, such as Ubuntu Developer Summits.
<mrevell> Anyone can contribute to the meeting's agenda by suggesting which blueprints to discuss.
<mrevell> You can see the agenda for UDS Mountain View at https://blueprints.launchpad.net/sprints/uds-mtv
<mrevell> Like bugs, you can link blueprints to the code branches that implement them.
<mrevell> You can find out more about the Blueprint Tracker in kiko's session log:
<mrevell> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/openweekfeisty/lpblueprint
<mrevell> Finally, the Answer Tracker.
<mrevell> Mailing lists and web forums are traditionally where free software projects answer user support questions.
<mrevell> However, it can be difficult to capture that knowledge and make it easily available to the community.
<mrevell> Some people are also intimidated by mailing lists or the initiation rituals of some forums :)
<mrevell> Launchpad's Answer Tracker is a simple way for people to ask questions about a project.
<mrevell> Anyone can offer an answer and the original questioner can highlight the answer they found most useful.
<mrevell> Members of a project's community can sign up to be support contacts, meaning they receive an email each time a new question is asked about that project.
<mrevell> The Answer Tracker is the first part of Launchpad to be localised.
<mrevell> People can ask questions in their own language(s).
<mrevell> Support contacts can choose to receive notification of questions asked in their preferred languages.
<mrevell> Importantly, all of the questions and answers are easily searchable, meaning that they build into a knowledge-base for the project.
<mrevell> You can find out more about Launchpad's Answer Tracker in Francis and Alan's session:
<mrevell> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/openweekfeisty/lpcommunity
<mrevell> So, what is the future for Launchpad?
<mrevell> We're working to add new features to Launchpad and you can get a first taste by joining the Launchpad Beta Testers team.
<mrevell> You can sign up at:
<mrevell> https://launchpad.net/~launchpad-beta-testers
<mrevell> As I said earlier, Launchpad was created to make it easy for the Ubuntu community to create the best operating system in the world :)
<mrevell> However, we think Launchpad is ready for other communities and projects to start using it in earnest.
<mrevell> Recently, Zope and SilvaCMS started using Launchpad's Bug Tracker.
<mrevell> We've also seen many other projects, including PledgeBank, WengoPhone and Creative Commons start to use Translations.
<mrevell> Thank you so much for your interest in Launchpad. I hope that I've given you a taster of what Launchpad is all about.
<mrevell> We'd love to hear what you think about Launchpad and to hear your questions. Join us in #launchpad, or on the launchpad-users mailing list:
<mrevell> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/launchpad-users
<mrevell> We also have user meetings in #launchpad.
<mrevell> We'll have the next one on 2nd May at 16:00 UTC. Add your questions to the agenda at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LaunchpadUserMeeting/2007-05-02
<mrevell> Now, I'll take the questions from the chat channel. Just a moment.
<mrevell> <nealmcb> QUESTION: Loco teams want to manage access to their web sites using launchpad's notion of loco membership, and allow loco members to log in to the loco web site with launchpad credentials.  Is launchpad planning to support openid or cardspace?
<mrevell> nealmcb: Good question!
<mrevell> nealmcb: I think Launchpad will become more and more useful for loco teams.
<mrevell> nealmcb: I think OpenID is a great idea and I can certainly see it having a good fit with Launchpad. However, I don't know about any particular plans for any particular scheme. watch this space, join the beta team :)
<mrevell> nealmcb: If you'd like to disucss it further, please join us on the launchpad-users mailing list.
<mrevell> <ditsch> QUESTION: I heard about a discussion about Ubuntu switching to Bazaar.Do you know anything about that and how could it remain compatible with Debian if switching?
<mrevell> ditsch: Although I'm not sure about any exact plans for Ubuntu, it certainly makes a lot of sense for Ubuntu to use Bazaar. Of course, it'd be down to the Ubuntu community to decide on any changes such as that.
<mrevell> ditsch: Bazaar solves a lot of the problems of Subversion and is really well suited to free software development. Its links with Launchpad also make it a natural candidate for Ubuntu.
<mrevell> ditsch: As for compatibility with Debian, I'm sure that'll remain a high priority but I'm a) not a developer and a bit dumb when it comes to that sort of thing and b) not directly involved in Ubuntu.
<mrevell> <DoctorOwl> QUESTION: Mark Shuttleworth said that he wouldn't release Launchpad under GPL yet because of concerns its development branches would fragment so quickly with people adding features.  And yet: Launchpad and Bazaar are designed for users to create and track diverging code branches in any project.  How can you justify that it's okay for any other project to have divergent code bases, but NOT Launchpad?
<mrevell> DoctorOwl: We haven't released the code to Launchpad because we believe that Launchpad can do its job best as a single web service, rather than a number of competing and unlinked installations.
<mrevell> DoctorOwl: For any other details, I'll refer you to Mark's "Ask Mark" session. The logs are at:
<mrevell> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/openweekfeisty/askmark
<mrevell> <Schalken> QUESTION: How does Launchpad's answer system tie with the forums? Will they eventually be replaced, in whole or in part?
<mrevell> Schalken: The Ubuntu forums are run by the Ubuntu community, with financial support from Canonical. I know that Jono, Mark Shuttleworth and other members of the community have worked together to ensure good governance is in place for the forums. So, I think that suggests a commitment to the future of the forums.
<mrevell> Schalken: While there may be integration with Launchpad in the future, I don't see any reason for the forums to go away.
<mrevell> <Schalken> QUESTION: You mention that bugs in Launchpad are linked with other bug tracking systems, but to what extent is the information shared? Does a new gimp bug in launchpad appear in bugs.gimp.org, and do comments on launchpad appear on linked bugs and vice-versa?
<mrevell> Schalken: We don't actively push bugs or bug data into other trackers. Pushing bugs into other people's trackers may be considered rude and unhelpful. However, I believe that people could use screen-scraping techniques to get the data and, within time, our XML-RPC interface when it's available.
<mrevell> <etank> QUESTION: Will forum posts and Wiki contributions ever be considered in karma calculations?
<mrevell> etank: Quite possibly, it would certainly make sense for them to count towards karma, if there were to be further integration between the wiki, forums and Launchpad.
<mrevell> <bababian> QUESTION: do we need more publication on Launchpad, as many newbies would not know its existence firsthand?
<mrevell> bababian: That's something I'm working to fix and I would love to hear any ideas or input you have.
<mrevell> <zorglu_> QUESTION: i definitly agree than competing and unlinked installations of launchpad would be a bad thing, but what about the other cases ? like collaborative and linked installations ? or unlinked installation on disctincts projects ?
<mrevell> zorglu_: I don't think I have time remaining to give a good answer. However, at the moment we don't have any infrastructure in Launchpad that would enable two installations to communicate and there may be better solutions for what you refer to as distinct projects. Adding that code isn't a priority for the team at the moment and there are other reasons, such as us not currently having time to build an educated community of develop
<mrevell> ers, for us not releasing as free software just yet.
<mrevell> Please, join us in launchpad-users to continue this discussion!
<mrevell> Thanks all! Bye!
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o Amaranth]  by ChanServ
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+v seb128]  by Amaranth
<seb128> hi everybody
<seb128> better now ;)
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o seb128]  by ChanServ
<Amaranth> there we go
<seb128> I'm Sebastien Bacher, and I'm working on the Ubuntu Desktop
<seb128> the Desktop Team is basically the group of people who takes care of the Ubuntu desktop and try to make it rocking
<seb128> I've some notes for the session to present the team, what we are doing and what you can do to help the team
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-classroom:Amaranth] : The Ubuntu Open Week continues at 15:00 UTC || SCHEDULE: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek - SCHEDULE CHANGES, PLEASE SEE THE TIMETABLE || RULES: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules Please respect them || LOGS: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs || Ask questions and chat in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, "QUESTION: <insert question here> || Current session: Ubuntu Desktop Team - Sebastien Bacher
<seb128> I'll copy them on the chan
<seb128> and let you some time to comment on #ubuntu-classroom-chat between blocks
<seb128> comment are just if something about what I wrote was not clear
<seb128> otherwise we will do questions after the presentation ;)
<seb128> 
<seb128> let's start
<seb128> 
<seb128> Where you can find members of the desktop team:
<seb128> - the #ubuntu-desktop@freenode IRC chan
<seb128> - the ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com mailing list
<seb128> (and also on the wiki and launchpad ;)
<seb128> 
<seb128> The main goals for the team are:
<seb128> - update desktop packages when new upstream versions are available
<seb128> - make easy for users to try new cool softwares by packaging them quickly
<seb128> - have a good collaboration with upstream
<seb128> - triage and fix desktop bugs
<seb128> - make the Ubuntu Desktop ROCK!
<seb128> 
<seb128> so that's what we are trying to do
<seb128> sometime we rock, sometime we could better ;)
<seb128> any help is welcome because we tend to have lot to do and the time is quite small
<seb128> I'll list the main area where you can contribute
<seb128> 
<seb128> * Work on Bugs
<seb128> Bugs managements is a good part of the work for the desktop team at the moment and required to prioritise the work and now what problems should worked first
<seb128> - Places for desktop bugs: https://bugs.launchpad.net/~desktop-bugs/+assignedbugs, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Bugs
<seb128> - You can help the Desktop Team by joining the bug squad (http://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugSquad)
<seb128> - help listing bugs that should be fixed for the next version of Ubuntu (or fixes to backport)
<seb128> 
<seb128> (for people asking on what set of package the desktop team work: https://bugs.launchpad.net/~desktop-bugs/+packagebugs)
<seb128> 
<seb128> bugs are not the only thing you can work on
<seb128> * Communication with other teams, upstream, Debian, etc:
<seb128> We want to have a good relationship with the Debian and Upstream
<seb128> - work on forwarding patches upstream (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/UpstreamDelta), having a low delta is better for everybody
<seb128> - become point of contact between the distribution and upstream for packages you have an interest in work with other teams and Debian
<seb128> (ups, "work with other teams and Debian" was an another pojnt, dropped the new line)
<seb128> 
<seb128> also
<seb128> 
<seb128> * Documentation
<seb128> A good documentation help new contributors to know where to start and also not-so-new team members how to do specific things, or what is to do by example
<seb128> - help by writing specifications (i.e: documents on launchpad and the wiki that describes the changes we want to get implemented and how)
<seb128> - update wiki pages for the DesktopTeam (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam) (goals, list of things to do, documentation, how to start, etc)
<seb128> 
<seb128> Testing
<seb128> - help testing GNOME, write specific test plans
<seb128> 
<seb128> one of the issues is to detect in the quantity of bugs we get which one are regression or items that should be fixed for the new version
<seb128> testing takes time but it's useful to detect regressions early and work on them
<seb128> 
<seb128> * Packaging
<seb128> Most of the work for a distribution is at the packaging level which means there is some place to contribute there too :)
<seb128> - help doing desktop packages updates (update the package, test the new version, communicate issues with upstream is there is any)
<seb128> - pick a package you have interest in (contacting the usual maintainer before starting to work on it might be a good idea) and start working on it. No need to have uploads right to start on a package, having your first updates mentored is usually a good start and way to learn. If you do a good job you can quickly become the maintainer for that package
<seb128> - work on fixing issues by writting patches or backporting them from upstream and applying those fixes to the packages
<seb128> - package new softwares
<seb128> 
<seb128> those are the main tasks we are working on
<seb128> some extra items still
<seb128> Other
<seb128> - new ideas: bring your good ideas of changes for the Ubuntu desktop and help to implement them
<seb128> - teams: if you can motivate several people to work on a project creating a team around it is a good way to organize work: gnomemm, pda, voip, whatever else you are interested to work on
<seb128> - If you have crazy ideas, write them up on DesktopTeam/Visions and discuss them on the mailing list.
<seb128> 
<seb128> ok, that's was a quick overview of what we are doing
<seb128> there is lot to do as you can see
<seb128> especially that we have quite some packages maintained by the team and lot of enthusiastic users sending bugs ;)
<seb128> let's do questions and answers now
<seb128> you can ask them to #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<seb128> does somebody want to copy interesting question on this chan so I don't have to switch between them? ;)
<seb128> Amaranth: ^
<Amaranth> <DoctorOwl> QUESTION: In your opinion, how does development of Ubuntu as a desktop OS fare against Ubuntu as a server OS?  In addition, how do the size of the Desktop and Server teams compare, and is this any indication of the importance Canonical places on one over the other?  If not, why not.
<seb128> Ubuntu does lot of desktop work but is good on server as well
<Amaranth> <Schalken> QUESTION: How do you decide what new versions of software should be packaged as updates, and which should be held off for the next release?
<seb128> most of the distribution team work on the distribution at a general level (ie: nothing desktop specific)
<seb128> we have now a separate server iso
<seb128> and efforts going to this direction
<Amaranth> oh, i thought you were done :)
<seb128> Amaranth: almost
<seb128> we want Ubuntu rocking on desktop and server
<seb128> 
<seb128> next one
<seb128> we update to new stable versions during the unstable cycle
<seb128> until the Upstream Version Freeze point
<seb128> then we only pick bug fixes updates or things which we really want
<seb128> if there is an unstable serie going on we look on the upstream schedule (if there is one)
<seb128> if they plan to release a stable version in time for us we can track the unstable serie
<seb128> (what we do with GNOME)
<seb128> otherwise we stay on the stable serie
<Amaranth> I think the question is more "when would you release new software as an update to a released version of Ubuntu?". Like firefox, etc
<seb128> oh
<seb128> we don't package new versions for a stable release
<seb128> stable = not moving, by definition
<seb128> firefox is an exeption because backporting security updates, etc is lot of hard work
<seb128> when we can backport we prefer to do that
<seb128> there is ubuntu-backports though
<seb128> which takes packages from the new unstable distribution and make them available for the stables
<seb128> you can use that if you really want the keep using the stable serie with a new version of something
<seb128> 
<seb128> next question?
<seb128> Amaranth: ^
<Amaranth> <Terramel> QUESTION: Ubuntu is growing very fast in the entire World. In Brazil is the most used Linux distribution... Strangely, companies that sell notebooks and desktop around here never sell their hardware with Ubuntu or any known LInux.. They sell with an odd brazilian distro that no one, not even brazilians know... Do Ubuntu team plan to reach more hardware here in Brazil?
<seb128> Terramel: thanks for the question, it's really out of the desktop team scope though ;)
<seb128> Canonical work with OEM, hardware sellers, etc to get Ubuntu distributed
<seb128> that's not easy work though
<seb128> I think that should become better for linux with time
<seb128> 
<seb128> Amaranth: next?
<Amaranth> <bababian> QUESTION: Does ubuntu-desktop  have too many features (many could mean productivity for veteran users, though) for new users to grasp?
<Amaranth> I think he means separate apps for music playing and burning and etc vs iTunes on the Mac
<seb128> not sure to understand the question ;)
<Amaranth> <bababian> I mean new users might prefer to have just one app that goes wth their needs, like the iTunes on a Mac
<seb128> we try to have no duplication on the default installation
<Amaranth> Lack of integration?
<seb128> like have one application for one task
<seb128> oh
<seb128> well, we are following GNOME there
<seb128> the spirit is rather to make applications adapted to the tasks and easy to use
<seb128> having an application doing everything complicates the interface a lot
<seb128> you can install other applications than the one from the default desktop though
<seb128> there is lot of choice to main and universe ;)
<seb128> 
<seb128> next
<Amaranth> <Belutz> QUESTION: what makes an application became included in default instalation? and how do desktop team determine which application must be in default installation?
<seb128> well
<seb128> we ship the GNOME desktop so when something is accepted there we tend to add it as well
<seb128> otherwise we add applications we find useful for our users
<seb128> if you have any suggestion feel free to mail the ubuntu-desktop mailing list
<seb128> we will consider it
<seb128> 
<seb128> next
<Amaranth> QUESTION: What happened to the GstToUmbrella spec?
<seb128> we got no consensus on what to do with g-s-t
<seb128> it's far to be perfect but it's better
<seb128> upsteam rewrote the architecture
<seb128> it's using dbus now
<seb128> and backend can be written in something else than perl
<seb128> so we decide to stay with it
<seb128> because writting new tools would be lot of work
<seb128> and we are already overworked at the moment
<Amaranth> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FutureOfGst <--link for those who don't know what this is
<seb128> g-s-t tools do mainly their job
<seb128> they could use some bug fixing work though ... if anybody feels like sending patches, feel free ;)
<seb128> 
<seb128> next?
<Amaranth> <yosch> QUESTION: how many people are currently focused on i18n, complex scripts and font issues in the desktop-team?
<Amaranth> I guess that's more of a general "What are you doing for i18n?" question
<seb128> none
<seb128> the Canonical part of the desktop team is 1.5 people
<seb128> (Daniel Holbach is working also on MOTU and other things)
<seb128> we barely cope with new versions packaging and the hundreds of bugs a week we receive
<seb128> we have some rocking contributors also but none interested in that it looks like
<seb128> 
<seb128> next?
<Amaranth> <j1mc> QUESTION: does the ubuntu-desktop group have any sway over what's included in the Kubuntu or Xubuntu desktop applications, or are they completely separate?
<seb128> (if you want to contribute for better i18n or font handling you are really welcome)
<seb128> 
<seb128> completely separate
<seb128> we do sometime some packaging changes to make the xubuntu job easier
<seb128> like we splited python-gnome so they can use gconf without depending on everything
<seb128> we don't decide anything for them though
<seb128> 
<seb128> next?
<Amaranth> <Belutz> QUESTION: will in the future, we could choose the application to be install when installing ubuntu? I never use ekiga, so it's better i choose not to install it in the first place
<seb128> I don't think it's planned for now or a priority
<seb128> we want to keep the installation simple
<seb128> and ekiga will only cost you some megs on your disk
<seb128> which is really no big deal when you see the size of disk shipped nowadays
<seb128> you are free to uninstall anything you don't want
<seb128> (we try to move not required packages to Recommends now, so you can uninstall them without removing ubuntu-desktop)
<seb128> 
<seb128> Amaranth: next ;)
<Amaranth> <DShepher1>  QUESTION:What, if any, are the features/changes/plans for feisty+1 or gusty+1 that you would like to see in the desktop-team goals? In other words wats your personal goals for the desktop-team?
<seb128> - desktop search integration is likely to happen for feisty+1
<seb128> (beagle or tracker, not decided which one, we will discuss it during the next UDS)
<seb128> - better compiz and maybe use it by default
<seb128> - hum
<seb128> - make login work when you run out of disk space
<seb128> - menu simplication
<seb128> 
<seb128> those are likely the main item for feisty+1
<seb128> items
<seb128> oh
<seb128> also easy samba sharing
<seb128> 
<seb128> Amaranth: next?
<Amaranth> QUESTION: Why can't you upgrade without having ubuntu-desktop installed and why doesn't update-manager warn you about this?
<Amaranth> sort of relates to "just uninstall ekiga"
<seb128> hum
<seb128> I'm not sure but I think update-manager does install ubuntu-desktop for the update
<seb128> note what it had to install
<seb128> and remove it with what it had to install after
<seb128> there is some clever logic there
<seb128> maybe not clever enough though ;)
<seb128> if you face an upgrade bug please file a bug with the log
<seb128> there is corner cases listed, etc
<seb128> still some extra cases could be added or improved
<seb128> 
<seb128> Amaranth: next
<Amaranth> <spr0k3t> QUESTION: in the future releases of Ubuntu, what are the chances of moving to the Tango imagery by default?
<seb128> ubuntu-artwork question
<seb128> if you mean using the upstream blue tango theme, I think really low
<seb128> the color is part of the ubuntu branding
<seb128> and I don't think it's going to change totally
<seb128> and we like having Ubuntu not looking like other distributions I think ;)
<seb128> 
<seb128> Amaranth: next
<Amaranth> <Belutz> QUESTION: which one is better for the desktop-team, to include new application that may generate more bugs, or stick to old stable application?
<Amaranth> New bling that needs work vs boring old stable apps, I guess
<seb128> I sort of replied to that one when I replied wrongly to the new version to -updates question ;)
<Amaranth> oh, right
<seb128> if we think it'll stabilize in time for the next Ubuntu we will go for it
<seb128> and try to encourage upstream to have a look on launchpad bugs
<seb128> 
<seb128> next?
<Amaranth> <spr0k3t> QUESTION: I've read a few complaints about the differences of fonts between the desktop level and some of the default installed programs (Firefox as example), will there be any movement to bring the differences in fonts closer to a more unified look?
<seb128> I think that's job one or several bugs
<seb128> we have like 20 000 of them open now
<seb128> we can't tackle everything with the small team we have
<seb128> I'm sure it'll be better at some point
<seb128> dunno when though
<seb128> if you have any suggestion on how to make it look better please open a bug or mail the ubuntu-devel list
<seb128> 
<seb128> next?
<Amaranth> <DShepher1> QUESTION: If ubuntu-deskop and kubuntu-desktop are installed together the Apps for (K)Ubuntu show up in the (K)Ubuntu Menu which, imho, can be really confusing. Is this the way the desktop-team would like it to work?
<seb128> no
<Amaranth> I think this is maybe more a question for me :)
<seb128> that looks like a KDE/kubuntu choice
<seb128> GNOME applications could be filtered
<seb128> Amaranth: yes, feel free to answer ;)
<Amaranth> GNOME and KDE use the same menu system (it's a specification on freedesktop.org) so without a way to filter out apps from the other desktop they will show up in the other desktop's menus. The problem with filtering them out is that some people like using k3b or amarok on Ubuntu or banshee on Kubuntu.
<seb128> KDE could have a preference to show GNOME items, that's a request for the kubuntu team
<seb128> 
<seb128> next?
<Amaranth> <j1mc> QUESTION: What approach do you think you'll take with samba sharing?  fusesmb or some other solution?  Xubuntu seems to have trouble with samba shares, so maybe we can piggyback off of your efforts.  =)
<seb128> looks like you are speaking about smb browsing
<seb128> gnome-vfs is being rewritten upstream (gvfs)
<seb128> the new stack will likely be a low level one like glib and could be use by xubuntu
<seb128> with some luck it'll work great ;)
<seb128> we don't plan to use fuse afaik, no
<seb128> that has been discussed for GNOME but it was not ideal and they prefer not going this way
<seb128> 
<seb128> next?
<Amaranth> <doctormo> QUESTION: Is there work being done on intergating mobile device syncing and utilisation so as to be plug and play?
<seb128> we would love too
<seb128> the team is already overworked though
<seb128> we will do what we can
<seb128> again if somebody has interest to that (and hardware to test), feel free to join the team
<seb128> you can make a difference ;)
<seb128> it'll go quicker with extra hands for sure
<seb128> 
<seb128> next?
<Amaranth> <eduard> QUESTION: why is the desktop team so small, given that this is a big priority for ubuntu?
<Amaranth> last question?
<seb128> because you need to make money to pay people and Canonical doesn't make that much at the moment
<seb128> there is an open Desktop QA position at the moment though
<seb128> so it's getting better ;)
<seb128> but desktop is not the only area that is overworked
<seb128> we got a firefox and an xorg maintainer now
<seb128> but there is still packages like openoffice
<seb128> kubuntu
<seb128> server
<seb128> etc
<Amaranth> _everybody_ is overworked :)
<seb128> thanks everybody for being there
<seb128> and for the good questions!
<seb128> if you want to join the team to have a look, or contribute in some area, or just discuss feel free
<seb128> we are on #ubuntu-desktop most of time during european working hours (and often after that)
<seb128> you can also use the ubuntu-desktop list
<seb128> it's not that active at the moment because we use IRC a lot
<seb128> but we would like to get extra activity there as well to show people cool stuff are happening, etc ;)
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-classroom:Amaranth] : The Ubuntu Open Week continues at 15:00 UTC || SCHEDULE: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek - SCHEDULE CHANGES, PLEASE SEE THE TIMETABLE || RULES: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules Please respect them || LOGS: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs || Ask questions and chat in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, "QUESTION: <insert question here> || Current session: Blueprint - Kiko
<Amaranth> *bump* :)
<seb128> looks like kiko is next
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o kiko]  by ChanServ
<kiko> hello hello hello
<kiko> it's so much easier when it's a Q&A session :)
<kiko> hello everyone, welcome to my second UOW session
<kiko> (frying wrists to attest to it)
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o seb128]  by ChanServ
<kiko> I'd like to do a quick overview of blueprint, what it's useful for, why you want to use it for your own projects, and then have more or less half the session for questions
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-v seb128]  by Amaranth
<kiko> I'm more interested in your questions, in particular because I want you to help us decide where we want to move blueprint next
<kiko> but let's start from the beginning.
<kiko> I joined canonical 3 years ago because I wanted to help the Launchpad team scale and deliver on-time
<kiko> one of the problems we had at the time was that it was very difficult to provide everybody with a good idea of what needed to be done, and there wasn't a mechanism to allow us to double-check if the technical plan was in line with the requirements
<kiko> one of the solutions we put into place at the time was having written specifications produced
<kiko> now I come from a software engineering background
<kiko> and was really familiar with spec processes and how horribly heavyweight they usually are
<kiko> so we all made a serious effort to ensure that the process was as lightweight as possible
<kiko> basically all you needed to do was write down a summary, rationale, one or more use cases, and a strategical and technical argument for moving ahead with it
<kiko> the spec would be written by an engineer or by a customer or by both in concert
<kiko> and once written you'd have a sign-off process in which the spec would be approved and ready to be scheduled for work
<kiko> this caught on and by the end of the year we had a lot of different projects using specifications to define and track their work
<kiko> we used wikis to store the docs, and used little wiki tags to specify metadata about the documents themselves
<kiko> now this was high-overhead in management, and at the beginning of 2006 Mark set out to write a better specification management system, which is where Blueprint comes from.
<kiko> Blueprint is just a cute name for a specification, though my friend SteveA says it's the proper noun to be used in this context
<kiko> and essentially, what the Launchpad blueprint tracker does is capture and track metadata related to a textual document
<kiko> the actual document itself can be kept anywhere, and while there are plans to offer a spec hosting facility as part of Launchpad, you can keep the specs wherever it is convenient for you to maintain
<kiko> the blueprint tracker requires only you have a URL to point to.
<kiko> there is quite an assortment of metadata that can be associated to a particular spec, and I don't want to go through an exhaustive list
<kiko> but effectively you can track separately:
<kiko> - people: author, approver, developer
<kiko> - priorities and target series and release
<kiko> - status of document completion
<kiko> - status of implementation
<kiko> - whether or not the direction of the document is approved
<kiko> - any bugs which are related or relevant to the spec
<kiko> in association with the specification concept, Launchpad has one additional feature that is useful for managing events around specifications, and that's the sprint management system
<kiko> the sprint management system was born totally out of the need to better coordinate Canonical's own meetings
<kiko> but perhaps unsurprisingly a number of other teams and OSS projects get together regularly to plan ahead and to specify solutions to existing problems
<kiko> the idea behind the sprint tracker is to help organize people and timeslots for discussing different specifications
<kiko> it's cool that in a way this ensures that some written record of the sprint itself survives
<kiko> but it's also a massive help when you have a large number of participants and want to maximize the value of the meeting to people, ensuring that they are able to attend the meetings they would appreciate and contribute to the most
<kiko> soooo
<kiko> that is a general overview of blueprint, the launchpad application.
<kiko> in a way blueprint is one of the least interconnected apps in Launchpad, because a blueprint is associated to one single project (distribution or upstream)
<kiko> but there is richness in the way it links to the Launchpad population
<kiko> and also to bugs and other specs (via dependency graphs) registered in Launchpad
<kiko> ah
<kiko> I didn't mention that specs have subscribers, which will get notified of changes to the specification (through a cunning robot subscriber) or to its metadata
<kiko> specs also have whiteboard that reviewers and developers can use to communicate status
<kiko> finally, specs can be linked to implementation bzr branches
<kiko> which allows you to hop from requirements to code in a simple step
<kiko> and which allows you to get great traceability inside your project.
<kiko> finally I want to spend a minute or two to discuss why specs might be useful for your project.
<kiko> so the reason why Canonical and Ubuntu decided to use specifications is related to the problem we all face in OSS
<kiko> and that's the fact that we have very little face to face time, and a lot of complex and detailed issues that need to be looked at and solved.
<kiko> specs are really a great way to convey this knowledge across a distributed team
<kiko> allowing people to collaborate on specifying the problem and its use cases
<kiko> and then taking stabs at providing alternative solutions to the problem, in increasing detail
<kiko> they are also easy to write, which lets people just kick one off by writing a few sentences on a text document
<kiko> (ease of starting a spec is part of the reason the process was so successful at Canonical, IMO)
<kiko> specs allow us to try and manage the ambiguity that exists in other communication
<kiko> and also allows us to stack up a repository of useful developer documentation about individual features
<kiko> when a new hacker joins the Launchpad team, part of his initial time is spent reading through existing specifications
<kiko> and in hindsight their comments are often surprising
<kiko> because they will have seen how bits were proposed and how they effectively implemented and rolled out
<kiko> it's fascinating
<kiko> aaaaaaaanyway
<kiko> I believe that any project which is larger than two people can really benefit from having written documents that describe how and why its new features are designed
<kiko> and starting with Launchpad's blueprint tracker makes that easy
<kiko> so you can join when you like and try it out without committing to moving your docs en-masse.
<kiko> finally, we can help assist migrate your specs into Launchpad
<kiko> and with that remove a barrier to adoption that you may find with the tool
<kiko> there's a lot more I'd like to discuss, but this is the general overview of Launchpad Blueprints
<kiko> I'd like to at this time request interesting, controversial, difficult and unexpected questions
<kiko> about blueprints in particular
<kiko> but also about launchpad, and if time allows, to the incredible world of professional cycling
<kiko> err where did that come from?
<kiko> blueprints and launchpad I meant
<Amaranth> <samgee> QUESTION: How do you migrate external specs to Launchpad?
<kiko> samgee, we have a spec importer that we massage into the metadata format that your spec system offers
<kiko> in the simplest case it just registers remote URLs with a name and a person
<kiko> but there are richer alternatives if you have a metadata format encoded
<kiko> such as Python's PEPs
<kiko> or Zope's specifications
<kiko> the custom code is managed by us, but if you have specs you'd like to import, irc-ping or email me and we'll sort it out for you.
<kiko> NEXT
<kiko> 
<Amaranth> <illu45> QUESTION: I understand that Launchpad and Blueprints is mainly designed for developers, but are there also ways for non-developers/non-coders to get involved?
<kiko> definitely yes
<kiko> in a way neither Launchpad nor Blueprints are /really/ for hardcore developers
<kiko> developers are an important user group for the bug tracker and the code management system and in some ways to blueprints
<kiko> but more often than not we have end-users, customers or managers involved in producing and enginering specifications
<kiko> sure there is some level of technical ability necessary
<kiko> but even without technical proficiency you can do well in presenting a rationale and end-user use cases which an enginner can work on afterwards
<kiko> end-users should definitely be involved in defining specs
<kiko> and I look forward to more of them participating.
<kiko> 
<Amaranth> <auTONYmous> QUESTION: Does either launchpad or blueprint support things like WebDAV/CalDAV/RSS for extenstion to/from outside sites or desktop apps?
<kiko> we do have RSS export of certain bits of data
<kiko> blueprint I don't believe does, but it'd be easy to write and export
<kiko> so that you could try the latest blueprints registered and changed
<kiko> and a person's currently assigned set of blueprints
<kiko> in general Launchpad will evolve to be more machine-friendly this year, after the 1.0 release.
<kiko> 
<Amaranth> <Monika|K> QUESTION: Is Blueprint only for textual specifications or also for graphical ones like UML?
<kiko> you can track basically /anything/ which can be made available via a URL
<kiko> we don't really look at the contents of the URL today, though we may do some things optionally
<kiko> we won't relax the fact that you can point to any URL from there, though.
<kiko> 
<Amaranth> QUESTION: What projects are using Launchpad/Blueprints other than Ubuntu?
<kiko> whew good one
<kiko> check some of these out:
<kiko> https://blueprints.beta.launchpad.net/tangocms/+spec/translation-files
<kiko> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/agfxmbcs/+spec/comments
<kiko> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/leap/+spec/leap-hsm-history-transition
<Amaranth> Perhaps I should narrow that to "large projects" :)
<kiko> aha
<kiko> you want to get tricky
<kiko> so Launchpad uses blueprints
<Amaranth> I remember hearing about zope and python, for example.
<kiko> and while I don't think the Zope specs have been finally imported they are also set on using blueprints for it.
<kiko> we have a spec importer for Python PEPs that we will put in action later this year
<kiko> not so many projects formalize specs
<kiko> but I bet that as we move on more of the ones that choose to will find Launchpad to be a good alternative
<kiko> 
<Amaranth> <Monika|K> QUESTION: How does the karma system work?
<Amaranth> moving into "generic launchpad" now
<kiko> aieee
<kiko> you really want to get me fired
<kiko> the canonical description is https://help.canonical.com/KarmaCalculation
<kiko> currently we decay karma throughout the year
<kiko> while I know it doesn't decay rapidly I don't know exactly what the speed is
<kiko> but nominally we want to ensure that people stay active on the system to retain the privileges that more kama entails.
<kiko> 
<Amaranth> QUESTION: Why is Launchpad so awesome? :)
<kiko> that looks like a question looking for a karma boost!
<Amaranth> ok, i think i have a good last question since we're almost out of time
<kiko> I think launchpad is very cool because it's the first time we've actually tried hard in OSS to provide a good way for projects to share and communicate between themselves.
<kiko> intra-project communication has always been a strength in OSS
<kiko> but inter-project is much harder, and can give us the benefits if we find out how.
<kiko> 
<Amaranth> QUESTION: What do you want to see for launchpad in the future? What plans do you have for launchpad in the next 6 months, etc?
<kiko> phew!
<kiko> I'd like to see OOPSes and timeouts down to zero; currently we're really good but I liked it when we were perfect.
<kiko> this requires the translations side of things being refactored, among other things
<kiko> in terms of features, there are a lot of things I want to see done.
<kiko> - comprehensive external bugtracker linking and communication
<kiko> - searching through translations
<kiko> - end-user package repositories
<kiko> - bzr integration throughout
<kiko> - better management of the project registry
<kiko> - more interactive UI designs
<kiko> there are a lot of specs registered on the launchpad project
<kiko> if you don't believe me, see
<kiko> ...
<kiko> (Intarnet!)
<Amaranth> haha
<kiko> https://blueprints.beta.launchpad.net/launchpad-project
<Amaranth> (most of us can't see the beta version)
<kiko> for an idea of how many items are lined up and pending release
<kiko> grumble
<kiko> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/launchpad-project
<kiko> that's what I meant!
<kiko> 
<kiko> okay, since you didn't let me discuss how flecha has finished three times in the top three for the past three years in paris-roubaix
<kiko> I will thank you all for our time and attention
<kiko> and invite you to come along to #launchpad and ask me to import all your specs!
<kiko> there are a lot of friendly launchpad developers around that can help you with your migration if you have made up your mind
<kiko> and we can set up evaluations on test servers if you want to see what things are like.
<kiko> let me know via IRC or email (kiko@canonical.com) if there's anything I can do for you
<kiko> and enjoy the next session.. but remember that while enjoying yourselves you should not share needles!
* kiko waves and blinks out
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-classroom:Amaranth] : The Ubuntu Open Week continues at 15:00 UTC || SCHEDULE: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek - SCHEDULE CHANGES, PLEASE SEE THE TIMETABLE || RULES: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules Please respect them || LOGS: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs || Ask questions and chat in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, "QUESTION: <insert question here> || Current session: Xubuntu - maxamillion & j1mc
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o kiko]  by ChanServ
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+oo maxamillion j1mc]  by ChanServ
<Amaranth> maxamillion, j1mc: You're on
<maxamillion> Amaranth: thank you
<j1mc> Thanks, Amaranth
<maxamillion> hello every, my name is Adam Miller and I will be standing in for Cody Somerville today for he has unfortunately fallen ill
<maxamillion> I have worked along side Cody for some time now and for those parties interested, my credentials are listed https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AdamMiller
<maxamillion> I would also like to introduce Jim Campbell, lead of our xubuntu-iso testing team and heavily involved with many aspects of the community aside from bug traige and his wiki page is located: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/j1mc
<maxamillion> now there are a few things we would like to cover for the day: community involvement, myths to be put to rest, our structure, future plans, and some others along the way
* j1mc waves
<maxamillion> to start I would like to put to rest that Xubuntu is only for those with computers of lesser hardware, while we do attempt to always keep the distribution lightweight while keeping a level of feature set that is up to par, that doesn't mean Xubuntu is only for low end hardware
<maxamillion> I personally run Xubuntu on my work desktop that has the following specifications: AMD Athlon64 X2 4600+, 2gb DDR2 XMS2 Pro Ram, XFX nv7900gtx
<maxamillion> Another myth that seems to continue to come up is that Xubuntu isn't affiliated with Ubuntu and is more of a pseudo-fork like Fluxbuntu, which is false
<maxamillion> our developers work along side the ubuntu core devs, our website shares server space with ubuntu among many other aspects of our project that works in coordination with the main Ubuntu project
<maxamillion> Next, I would like to speak about our community involvement (Details can be found: http://www.xubuntu.org/devel)
<maxamillion> (please forgive our current CSS issues, we are in the works of a complete website overhaul)
<maxamillion> We would like to encourage to joining of the Users-mailing list (https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/xubuntu-users)
<maxamillion> One of the biggest things we are noticing is that users who are newer or that don't have technical or programming skills tend to feel a little offset by joining up with the contribution to the project and we would like to invite everyone at any skill level to join our community
<maxamillion> for those who lack programming skills documentation and bug traige/testing is a very positive contribution to the project that we are constantly looking for new members to help with and those who are rather new and are interested in getting involved might benefit from working along side those with more experience
<maxamillion> for a moment, i am going to give the floor to j1mc as he is the head of our testing team and i have started to cover that aspect of the Xubuntu project
<j1mc> hi all.  as maxamillion said, there are a lot of ways to get involved with the xubuntu project.
<j1mc> one way, is through ISO testing.
<j1mc> what is ISO testing, and why do we need it?
<j1mc> as the ubuntu community has grown, there has been a lot more activity for our core developers to focus on, and so they have started to shift iso testing to the community.
<j1mc> so prior to releases (or release milestones), community testers perform test installations of the soon-to-be-released ISOs.
<j1mc> it's a great way to get involved, and it only requires a spare hard drive, a few CD's, and a bit of your time.
<j1mc> i'll provide links for that in a moment, but another way to get involved, is through documentation work.
* maxamillion lends a helping hand ...
<maxamillion> testing information for Xubuntu can be found at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Testing
<maxamillion> some examples of past testing and how the process occurs can be found: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Testing/Feisty
<j1mc> thanks, max
<maxamillion> we also converse about testing alot in the xubuntu developers mailing lists along with use of launchpad for bug triage
<j1mc> there's also a great forum section pertaining just to ISO testing: http://www.ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=201
<maxamillion> j1mc: anytime :)
<j1mc> documentation is another area where people can get involved.  even if you don't know docbook-xml
<j1mc> one of the ways in which people can get involved is through simply proofreading the documentation, and providing bug reports off of the documentaiton packages.
<j1mc> perhaps the best thing about xubuntu is that those who want to get involved, can do so easily.
<j1mc> all you have to do is make yourself known, step up, and not be afraid to get your hands dirty  :-)
<j1mc> for end users, i think that most people find it a bit refreshing that the #xubuntu irc channel isn't as "hectic" as the #ubuntu channel, and it's easy to get your questions answered there.  :-)
<maxamillion> another thing we are currently working on within the community as kind of a "case study" for documentation presentation is the Xubuntu-Welcome-Center
<maxamillion> information on that can be found at https://launchpad.net/xubuntu-welcome-centre and one of the developers has hosted a wiki that represents the basic layout of the application along with some content (but note the wiki lacks a scroll bar for the content) which is found here http://welcome.sheep.art.pl/
<j1mc> ok . . .   at this time, we'd like to open it up to questions
<Amaranth> <sampbar> QUESTION: do you have a mentoring team where people get appointed to a mentor to help guide them through?
<maxamillion> we have actually recently had the project adopted and recieve some support and packaging (and i believe inclusion) in the baltix linux distribution which has shown to be positive feedback that the project might find its way into feisty+1
<j1mc> i'll take that . . .
<maxamillion> ok
<j1mc> we don't currently have a mentoring team as such, but . . .
<j1mc> a number of the devs and key contributors have been very helpful to those wishing to help out.
<j1mc> it depends on what you're looking for, though . . .   if you're looking for a mentor in terms of helping out with something non-xubuntu-specific, we may direct you to that person to lead your way . . .
<j1mc> next question
* maxamillion will make note that a mentoring program should be concidered for creation
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o somerville32]  by ChanServ
* somerville32 is open to mentoring individuals who are interested.
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o somerville32]  by somerville32
<j1mc> heh . . . thanks, cody.  :)
<maxamillion> Everyone, i would like to introduce the man of the hour ... Cody Somerville
<maxamillion> somerville32: i'm glad you were able to make it even though you aren't feeling well
<Amaranth> put in a blank line when you're ready for another question
<j1mc> .
<maxamillion> 
<Amaranth> <MRjinx> QUESTION: Are there any plans to include programs capable of browsing smb shares by default in future releases?
<j1mc> this is something that we want very badly.
<j1mc> we are looking at ways to accomplish this, but don't have a definite plan for how it will be implemented yet, though.
<Amaranth> gvfs ftw :)
<j1mc> i even asked a question about it during today's ubuntu-desktop session, and we think that we may have an option . . .   yes,... gvfs
<maxamillion> there has been talk of possibly including pyNeighborhood as a secondary program that would allow them to be mounted and then browsed from within Thunar but at the same time there is a group of developers that is looking into the creation of a smb share browser plugin for Thunar using fusesmb and if the latter were to occur, we aren't entirely sure about when it would be completed and released stable
* maxamillion will take note of gvfs as an alternative as well
<j1mc> .
<maxamillion> 
<Amaranth> <somerville32> QUESTION: What are some of the latest cool features in the Xfce 4.4 stable desktop environment release?
<maxamillion> well, that's a very good question and i would love to walk everyone through the official xfce tour at this time: http://www.xfce.org/about/tour
<maxamillion> there is the addition of desktop icons (by popular demand)
<maxamillion> a substantial amount of the latest Thunar features we were actually able to include since dapper due to the Xubuntu inclusion of xfce4.4 release candidates (with modification for optimal stability)
<maxamillion> many of the issues that the mousepad text editor has had have been resolved
<maxamillion> another thing i would like to announce is that the xfwm4 now has compositing by defualt
<maxamillion> for those who are unaware of compisiting, that is the "transparent window" feature that so many users post in screenshots
<maxamillion> xfwm4 (which is the window manager by default for the xfce desktop environment) has this capability built in along with "3d shadow"
<maxamillion>  casting*
<maxamillion> this is all built in and all that is needed is for your x11 configuration to have the compositor extention enabled
<maxamillion> another thing is that the panel is rather confurable and extendable, its completely gnome-plugin compliant (though the gnome-libs overhead discourages the use of this feature in many instances) and there is even a python implementation so for all those python programmers out there, here's your panel plugin development platform :)
<maxamillion> and i think that pretty much sums it up
<maxamillion> 
<Amaranth> <illu45> QUESTION: Are there any plans to make theme installation simpler/more user-friendly?
<j1mc> hmmmm . . .  you mean it's not very user friendly to install icon packages into your /usr/share/icons folder?  :-P
<j1mc> this is certainly something that we'd like to have, but we don't have specific plans for implementation at this time.  thank you very much for the suggestion, though.
<j1mc> one thing i'd like to note is that xfce can use most gnome themes . . .
<j1mc> at this time, they just need to be manually placed intot he proper folders.
<j1mc> we are looking at implementing a themes wizard for feisty +1, though.
<j1mc> 
<Amaranth> <BFTD> QUESTION: Are there any plans that will put documentation for installed app's and features in easy access for user on the desktop or in the start menu?
<maxamillion> BFTD: yes, as i mentioned earlier we are working on the Xubuntu-Welcome-Center which is essentially the "welcome to xubuntu, find help and help info here" application that would probably suite your needs ... information can be found: https://launchpad.net/xubuntu-welcome-centre and the wiki here: http://welcome.sheep.art.pl/
<maxamillion> illu45: that is another thing we have found to be a popular topic in the irc channels and i think there might be a spec put out to write a simply pyGTK application in order to assist with theme installation
* maxamillion was in the wrong room ... hit the wrong alt+# combo in irssi :(
<maxamillion> sorry about that
<maxamillion> 
<Amaranth> <Monika|K> QUESTION: Is Xubuntu usage really increasing a lot faster than Ubuntu and Kubuntu usage?
<Amaranth> *cricket*
<j1mc> without access to the download stats, it's difficult to say.  just looking at the distrowatch stats, though. . .
<maxamillion> no, not entirely ... we have actually started to gain steam as more and more users want more speed from their computers in retrospect
<maxamillion> < MRjinx> QUESTION: While it is not difficult to install from the repos,  will a network manager such wifi-radar or netwrok manager be  included by default for wireless networks?
<j1mc> we are doing fairly well.
<maxamillion> i am glad the wifi question was asked, we are actually currently looking at two different wifi manager projects that are in consideration for inclusion into the distro, one is being developed by an actual xfce developer and is called airtool, information here: http://spuriousinterrupt.org/projects/airconfig
<maxamillion> the other one ... well the other one is called WiCD, but their website appears to be down at the moment ... the link is http://compwiz18.blackhole.cx/wicd/wb/
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o nixternal]  by ChanServ
<maxamillion> we would include network-manager-gnome if it didn't weigh do heavy on so many gnome libraries so for now we will be looking for alternatives and we hope to have a wireless application installed by default in feisty+!
<maxamillion> +1*
<maxamillion> 
<Amaranth> <Belutz> QUESTION: i haven't tried xubuntu 7.04 yet, does it have the features in ubuntu 7.04 like desktop effects and restricted drivers manager?
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o somerville32]  by ChanServ
<j1mc> Xubuntu does support beryl, and does include the same restricted drivers manager that is included in ubuntu and kubuntu
* nixternal notes there is no restricted driver manager in Kubuntu (GNU/Linux) :)
<j1mc> *beryl or compiz . . . or whatever they decide to call it since they have merged.
<maxamillion> heh .. "merged"
<maxamillion> anyhoo, yes ... we include the same drivers and the restricted driver manager
<maxamillion> 
<Amaranth> maxamillion: I can have a nice discussion about the 'merged' project with you later. :)
<Amaranth> QUESTION: What are your plans for gutsy? gutsy+1?
<maxamillion> Amaranth: i am actually rather interested because i get different info from different developers blogs
<Amaranth> Should be a nice segue to closing comments
<somerville32> Over the next two releases, we are looking forward to working towards providing a more functional desktop while maintaining our light-weight mandate.
<maxamillion> currently the main plans the have been speced out for gutsy is 1)smb browse support in some form or fasion 2)wifi manager inclusion 3)theme installer 4)possible addition of some default games 5)possible inclusion of claws-mail given their feature spec meets ours by release time
<maxamillion> but at the same time, we havent hosted the developers meeting to make these concreate and are more likely than not subject to change over the next couple of weeks
<somerville32> As always, we will continue the offer the cutting edge development offered from the development branch while ensuring integrity and stability.
<maxamillion> it seems we are out of time, I would like to personally thank everyone on behalf of the Xubuntu team(s) for coming to our open week session and if anyone has any more questions we would be more than happy to have you in #xubuntu where we can further answer your queries
<Amaranth> Hrm
<Amaranth> I expected the closing to take more than 30 seconds :)
<maxamillion> oh, sorry ... i just saw it was UTC2000
<Amaranth> list of places of contact, fall for help, anything?
<Amaranth> err, call
<Amaranth> you've got about a minute left according to my clock :)
<j1mc> We have several irc channels, including #xubuntu, #xubuntu-devel,
<somerville32> Aas already started, we're very interested in getting users involved in contributing back to Xubuntu.
<maxamillion> also, user mailing lists: http://www.xubuntu.org/help and developer mailing lists http://www.xubuntu.org/devel
<somerville32> There are two mailing lists available: xubuntu-users and xubuntu-devel
<maxamillion> :)
<somerville32> See links above.
<maxamillion> further information on both topics (help and devel) are available via the links posted
<Amaranth> The Ubuntu Open Week || SCHEDULE: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek - SCHEDULE CHANGES, PLEASE SEE THE TIMETABLE || RULES: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules Please respect them || LOGS: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs || Ask questions and chat in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, "QUESTION: <insert question here> || Current session: Documentation team - Rich Johnson
<somerville32> Furthermore, there is a comprehensive page available at http://xubuntu.org/devel on how to get involved.
<Amaranth> err
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-classroom:Amaranth] : The Ubuntu Open Week || SCHEDULE: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek - SCHEDULE CHANGES, PLEASE SEE THE TIMETABLE || RULES: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules Please respect them || LOGS: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs || Ask questions and chat in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, "QUESTION: <insert question here> || Current session: Documentation team - Rich Johnson
<maxamillion> feel free to post questions on the mailing lists, our community is wide spread accross different time zones, there is normally someone always there for a quick reply on the mailing lists or in the irc channels willing to help
<Amaranth> Thanks guys, I'll have to try Xubuntu now. :)
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o somerville32]  by somerville32
<maxamillion> Amaranth: thank you :)
<maxamillion> once again ... thank you all and feel free to come to #xubuntu for further questions
<Amaranth> nixternal: you're up
<nixternal> thanks maxamillion and j1mc for a great talk on Xubuntu!
<nixternal> OK, here we go. I have created a wiki page for this talk located at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RichardJohnson/OpenWeekDocTeamNotes
<maxamillion> nixternal: thanks :)
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o maxamillion]  by maxamillion
<nixternal> Amaranth: if any of my posts get cut off, please let me know. thanks
<nixternal> here we go!
<nixternal> = Who am I? =
<nixternal> My name is Richard Johnson. I am an Ubuntu member as well as a member of other teams within the Ubuntu community. I am known mostly around here as the Kubuntu and KDE documentation guy. So because of this, I will be talking to you all today about the Ubuntu Documentation Project. * Wiki Page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RichardJohnson * LP Page:   https://launchpad.net/~nixternal
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o j1mc]  by ChanServ
<nixternal> copy/paste worked great there :)
<nixternal> = What is the Ubuntu Documentation Project? =
<nixternal> The project was created in order to create system documentation for the Ubuntu operating system. As time went on and Ubuntu matured, the scope of the project has widened. Currently the Ubuntu Documentation Project encompasses everything from the wikis to system documentation for each Ubuntu partner project (Kubuntu, Edubuntu, and Xubuntu).
<nixternal> = Who is the Ubuntu Documentation Project? =
<nixternal> The project is comprised of the Ubuntu Documentation Team which is completely made up of volunteers. The core team is https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-doc however many others contribute freely to the documentation all the time.
<nixternal> The core team spends a majority of their time working on system documentation whereas the volunteers tend to start off adding documentation to the community wiki (https://help.ubuntu.com/community) and eventually work their way up to the core team.
<nixternal> = What types of documentation does the team work on? =
<nixternal> There are essentially two types of documentation that the team produces. 1. System documentation - this is written in a markup language called DocBook/XML, and is hosted in the documentation repository. 2. Online documentation - composed of an HTML version of #1, and a community driven wiki (https://help.ubuntu.com/community).
<nixternal> = Why are there 2 wikis? = * https://wiki.ubuntu.com is looked at mainly as the developer wiki. This wiki is meant to store specifications and team information as well as personal wiki pages for members and future members.
<nixternal>  * https://help.ubuntu.com/community is the cmmunity documentation wiki. Any and everyone is more than welcome to add their documentation to that wiki, or improve the documentatiton that is already there. This is the wiki to go for when you need help with your system.
<nixternal> = How does one contribute to the project? =
<nixternal> Diving in and trying things out is the best way to begin getting involved. If you have edited a ton of wiki pages, or have experience with technical documentation, then maybe you should go ahead and download our repository (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Repository) and start getting familiar with DocBook/XML and the way we rock.
<nixternal> We have even included a validation tool in our repository to help you ensure the documentation you have created is logically valid. If you are confused or have any questions, please feel free to ask in #ubuntu-doc or on the mailing list (ubuntu-doc@lists.ubuntu.com). Be patient, as sometimes the IRC channel may be dead, however the mailing list is usually quick to provide a response.
<nixternal> = What is this DocBook/XML you keep blabbing about? =
<nixternal> DocBook is a DTD (Document Type Definition) which includes a very popular set of tags for describing books, articles, and other prose documents. XML (eXtensible Markup Language) is a general purpose, free and open source, markup language. Both are fairly easy to pick up and learn. More information on DocBook is available at http://docbook.org/tdg/en/html/docbook.html.
<nixternal> Addon: For those of you familiar with HTML will pick up XML and DocBook fairly easy. Those of you without HTML experience will probably tend to pick it up a little easier
<nixternal> Addon: The reason being you won't confuse the markup tags between the two since there are at times some similarity.
<nixternal> = I am not all up technically enough to document, what else can I do? =
<nixternal> Proof reading is a great way to get started as well. This will not only find our mistakes, but it will allow you to familiarize yourself with the ways that we do things. You can look through our documentation via the repository, or by visiting http://doc.ubuntu.com and reading through the documentation that gets built nightly via the repositories. Note this is a staging area and not a final release area.
<nixternal> Also note the wiki sections below.
<nixternal> well in this case, the wiki sections coming up :)
<nixternal> = What are the key tasks with the documentation team? =
<nixternal> There are actually quite a few tasks, and they continue to grow with each release. So due to this, we definitely have the need for more contributors. As it stands, these are just some of the key tasks:
<nixternal> * Improving the navigability and readability of the help (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TopicBasedHelp)
<nixternal> * Incorporating material from the Official Ubuntu Book into appropriate sections in the system documentation, amending the style accordingly.
<nixternal> * Addressing areas which are missing from the documentation, in particular by reviewing material on the wiki/forum/mailing lists and converting it to DocBook for inclusion in the system documentation.
<nixternal> * Updating existing information which is no longer valid due to inclusion of new features in each release.
<nixternal> Addon: Of course there is more as the community matures, but these are just a few of our more popular and frequented tasks.
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+b *!*@ubuntu/member/ryanakca]  by Amaranth
<nixternal> lol
<nixternal> time for everyons favorite, the Ubuntu wiki(s)!
<nixternal> s/everyons/everyones/
<nixternal> = Wiki Documentation =
<nixternal> Contribution is as easy as logging into the wiki using your launchpad account, and then correct the errors you find in the documents. Read existing documents to become familiar with the wiki markup which is very easy to do. Some of you may have noticed = Question =, that is wiki markup which is similar to the <h1> or main header in HTML.
<nixternal> Addon: or <sect1 id="ubuntu-documentation-rocks" status="perfecto"> :)
<nixternal> that was for you XML and DocBook fans right there. Which I see maybe 1 or 2 of :)
<nixternal> The community documentation wiki also needs a little spring cleaning as well. So you can visit https://help.ubuntu.com/community/CategoryCleanup and go through and proof the pages, and make them conform to the Wiki Guide at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiGuide. After you have edited and cleaned up a few pages, apply to join the Wiki Team at https://beta.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-wiki.
<nixternal> = Is there any one task you really need help with on the wiki? =
<nixternal> Cleaning out the CategoryCleanup category on the wiki is a big task for wiki pages at this time. You can see which documentation is in need of some cleaning. Refer to the previous topic under Wiki Documentation.
<nixternal> Addon: *ALL* community documentation concerning the binary drivers, such as ATI and NVidia, definitely need some love.
<nixternal> Addon: Each one of those documents present a number of confusing methods for users who are not only new to Ubuntu, but also to Linux in general.
<nixternal> Addon: WiFi is another section of concern, seeing that there are also many different ways to skin the same cat.
<nixternal> Addon: We need dial-up modem experience and documentation as well. The documentation on the wiki currently is very limited. Granted linmodems website contains a lot of the necessary information, just not in an Ubuntu way.
<nixternal> = Like system documentation are there key tasks for the wiki? =
<nixternal> Sure there are. Here are just a few of them now:
<nixternal> * Improve the self-maintainability of the wiki by introducing easy tools for quality assurance (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpWikiQualityAssurance). This spec needs ideas, discussion and eventually some code.
<nixternal> * Doing quality assurance to ensure users are given reliable information and can quickly identify how reliable a page is.
<nixternal> * Improving existing material and adding new material to the wiki, in particular drawing on the immense resources offered by the forums (https://help.ubuntu.com/community/forum).
<nixternal> Addon: This is where my previous addons come into play. The better our documentation, community wiki wise, the easier it is for a new user to switch as seemlessly as possible. With your help, I am sure this can be achieved.
<nixternal> A main goal is to bring the system documentation and the online documentation closer and closer together, so eventually it is easy for the system documentation to draw on contributions via the wiki, and users to browse and search all of the available documentation via a single interface, be it via the online website or the system help viewer. This is a very large goal awaiting the right tools to come together.
<nixternal> Addon: The Documentation Team would love to hear ideas on how something like this could be achieved easily, but at the same time have the best functionality, accessibility, and usability one would come to expect from Ubuntu.
<nixternal> ubuntu-doc@lists.ubuntu.com is a great place to get your ideas heard!
<nixternal> = TRANSLATIONS!!! =
<nixternal> No question really, but I don't know if you all realize this or not, but translators are one of the largest assets of the Ubuntu community. Ubuntu is known as an operating system with more translations than any other. We can never have enough truthfully, so if you are a translator and are interested in helping out, then you just need to learn the Rosetta translation system (https://launchpad.net/rosetta).
<nixternal> Addon and Note: If you notice that some translations are lacking with the 7.04 release, that is in now way a reflection on our translators. During the development phase, it took a little longer to get Rosetta and the Launchpad working correctly due to new technology being implemented.
<nixternal> Addon: I would definitely like to thank all of those who helped with translations during the short translation period for 7.04. They rocked hard and fast! I couldn't have asked for more.
<nixternal> You can find out how to use that on the Rosetta wiki page (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Rosetta). Once you have brushed up on all of this, the docteam documents can be found at https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/gutsy/+source/ubuntu-docs. Replace ubuntu-docs with kubuntu-docs, xubuntu-docs, and/or edubuntu-docs accordingly.
<nixternal> Note: The Gutsy translations will of course not be available until later in the development cycle
<nixternal> Note: So if you go there now, I believe it may either give you an Oops or redirect to Feisty translations.
<nixternal> = Conclusion =
<nixternal> Thank you for staying awake during this little speech. I hope I was able to provide you with viable information to help you get started. If you come up with any questions, any problems, or whatever, please feel free to contact me anytime (nixternal@ubuntu.com). To contact the team try any of the following:
<nixternal>  * IRC - server: chat.freenode.net - port: 8001 - channel: #ubuntu-doc
<nixternal>  * Mailing List - ubuntu-doc@lists.ubuntu.com - subscribe or read the archives at https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-doc.
<nixternal>  * Wiki - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam
<nixternal> The floor is now open for questions. Please join #ubuntu-classroom-chat if you haven't already and prefix your questions like =>  QUESTION: I heard Matthew East is really a documentation robot, is this true?
<nixternal> Thanks again everyone!
<nixternal> ANSWER: I still don't know truthfully :)
<nixternal> [    samgee]  QUESTION: What do you mean by 'logical validation' for the documentation? Syntax?
<nixternal> samgee: what the tool does is it goes through the xml document and makes sure that you have properly coded the markup.
<nixternal> For instance:
<nixternal> <sect1 id="test">
<nixternal> <para>Ubuntu Rocks!</para>
<nixternal> </sect1>
<nixternal> that is logically incorrect.
<nixternal> The reason being that when you do a <sect1...> you need to follow it with a <title>Woohoo</title> prior to the <para></para> tags
<nixternal> now this validation tool checks all of the tags and prints out to the screen (i.e. terminal) all of your validation errors
<nixternal> The reason we validate is to ensure that the documentation will get built correctly to HTML for one, and two that when you look at the documentation via Yelp it will be formatted correctly and unbroken
<nixternal> [    samgee]  QUESTION: Is there a WYSIWYG Dockbook editor?
<nixternal> None that I know of unfortunately.
<nixternal> the popular editors currently are:
<nixternal> gEdit, Kate (has a great XML validation tool built in), Bluefish, Quanta, Komodo (this is a new FREE editor that totally rocks), and truthfully any text editor
<nixternal> Emacs and Vim both have great DocBook/XML extensions that will highlight, indent, and some will even word complete as you type.
<nixternal> [    samgee]  QUESTION: Is translating the docs different from translating applications (whole text vs. string by string)?
<nixternal> Documentation translation will occur on a paragraph or line-by-line occurance
<nixternal> or as you said string-by-string
<nixternal> From what I have heard it isn't all that time consuming, but it is somewhat tedious. I don't know translations 100%, except for the fact that I manually upload them from time-to-time, hopefully not irritating anyone :)
<nixternal> [  Monika|K]  QUESTION: So you say Docbook ist for system documentation and wiki.ubuntu.com is for system documentation; help.ubuntu.com/community is for other documentation - so is wiki.ubuntu.com written in Docbook? :confused:
<nixternal> wiki.ubuntu.com is really for developer documentation
<nixternal> it used to host all documentation, but it became confusing to new users
<nixternal> then again so did adding help.ubuntu.com/community
<nixternal> All of our wikis, which are MoinMoin powered, use a wiki syntax or markup
<nixternal> this syntax/markup is way different, and actually much easier than DocBook/XML
<nixternal> = Hello Monika|K = would create a level 1 heading on the wiki
<nixternal>  * This would be a list unorganized list item (i.e., <ul><li>foo</li></ul>)
<nixternal> System documentation is all DocBook/XML, and when I say system documentation I mean what you see when you fire up KHelpCenter in Kubuntu, or Yelp in Ubuntu/Xubuntu/Edubuntu
<nixternal> In Kubuntu, we have to build out the XML files we create to HTML, whereas with Yelp it will read .xml files natively
<nixternal> I apologize for the confusion there
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-b *!*@ubuntu/member/ryanakca]  by ChanServ
<nixternal> ryanakca: IRSSI to get rid of the auto /who on join ;)
<nixternal> [    samgee]  QUESTION: Is it a good idea to translate using some service like Babelfish and a spell checker and correcting the remaining errors/untranslated bits or does that have copyright/other issues? Or is it actually slower than doing it manually?
<nixternal> I don't think copyright would be an issue with this. Canonical has done a great job in creating the Rosetta system for Launchpad, and since Ubuntu does it, we kind of follow suit
<nixternal> I know that the KDE community utilizes Babelfish with KBabel and they also do a great job with translations
<nixternal> Time wise I would think it is about the same, because a Babelfish editor and the Rosetta interface actually break down the .pot files the same
<nixternal> .pot files being the translation files created using the xml2po command
<nixternal> [  Monika|K]  QUESTION: Where does one upload/edit the system documentation?
<nixternal> all of our system documentation is located in a Subversion (SVN) repository at https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos
<nixternal> under the branches/ directory you will find all of our already released documentation
<nixternal> under the trunk/ directory you will find all of the current development documentation that is being worked on
<nixternal> in this instance trunk/ is for 7.10 documentation (Gutsy)
<nixternal> you can use either Subversion from the command line or use a Subversion GUI client
<nixternal> To check out our trunk documentation, ensure you have subversion installed
<nixternal> OK, Quick tutorial time!!!
<nixternal> If you want to work with the Ubuntu system documentation, here is what you need to do
<nixternal> I apologize as I will be covering it from a command line perspective since that is what I do daily :)
<nixternal> First things first...You need the applications which the ubuntu-docs depend on. So to get these in one shot, at the command line type the following
<nixternal> sudo apt-get build-dep ubuntu-docs
<nixternal> this will pull in all of the necessary docbook, xml, poxml, applications and such
<nixternal> to see which each application does, type
<nixternal> apt-cache show application_name
<nixternal> now to download, or checkout our repository, get to a directory where you want to save the checkout too
<nixternal> in my case I use /home/nixternal/ubuntu/docs/repos/
<nixternal> so once I am there, I do:
<nixternal> svn co https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/trunk
<nixternal> that will create a trunk/ directory in my current directory which I listed above
<nixternal> and in that trunk directory will be everything you need to work on with Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Xubuntu, and Edubuntu documentation
<nixternal> more information about our repository can also be read up on at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Repository
<nixternal> [    samgee]  QUESTION: Will Kubuntu be able to natively read .xml in the future?
<nixternal> Kubuntu uses the KDE help center known as KHelpCenter
<nixternal> it can read .docbook files natively with no problem.
<nixternal> So either we can continue building the documentation out to HTML, or we could convert to .docbook filetypes in the future
<nixternal> this is being looked into for Gutsy development
<nixternal> [  Monika|K]  QUESTION: Can everybody contribute to the system documentation?
<nixternal> YES!!! WOOHOO!
<nixternal> but...
<nixternal> you knew that was coming :)
<nixternal> unless you have commit rights on the Subversion repository, you cannot commit directly to the repo
<nixternal> but, with Subversion (and Bazaar is we ever switch to it in the future) allows you to create patches very easily
<nixternal> When you have downloaded/checked out from the repository, you can make changes to the .xml files locally on your system
<nixternal> when you are happy with your changes/fixes, and have ensured they do validate using the validation tool, you can create a quick patch file
<nixternal> to do this you would simply type:
<nixternal> svn diff > foo_is_bar.diff
<nixternal> to make sure you are going to get the correct changes, it is best to run
<nixternal> svn stat
<nixternal> first to see what all changes you are looking at
<nixternal> now if you made changes in trunk/kubuntu/libs and you were in the trunk/ubuntu directory and ran svn stat or svn diff, you wouldn't get anything
<nixternal> so what I recommend is to change to the root directory of the repository checkout (trunk/) and svn stat or svn diff
<nixternal> now once you have the diff/patch file created, simply email it to ubuntu-doc@lists.ubuntu.com and a person with commit rights will check it over and if everything is good to go, commit it to the repository
<nixternal> To get commit rights, after you have submitted a few patches which shows that you know what you are doing, and you know your way around Subversion, Matthew East will bug Canonical and tell them to add an account for you.
<nixternal> [  ryanakca]  QUESTION: Are the build-deps different for kubuntu docs? 'gnome-doc-utils' is a build-dep for ubuntu-docs, but I would doubt it's required for KDE...
<nixternal> it isn't required for KDE, you are correct, however ubuntu-docs contains all of the tools necessary for kubuntu-docs as well
<nixternal> if you are unsure, it would never hurt to run
<nixternal> sudo apt-get build-dep kubuntu-docs
<nixternal> I believe the main files you need would be the docbook-xml (which I messed up recently and didn't have build-deps in the package for kubuntu)
<nixternal> xml2po
<nixternal> libxml stuff and what not
<nixternal> which I believe most is installed ootb with the Ubuntu projects
<nixternal> [  ryanakca]  QUESTION: Why doesn't the doc team switch to bazaar?
<nixternal> oh man, I will get killed if I don't answer this one correctly, so remind me when I meet you one day ryanakca to repay you for this one :)
<nixternal> the Subversion repository works! We do have a Bazaar sandbox and as soon as some little quirks are worked out with Bazaar, I am sure we will switch
<nixternal> when? I can't give you a timeline on that. I am sure we will all meet and talk with the LP and Bazaar gurus and work it out then, until then, svn is it for docs :)
<nixternal> [  ryanakca]  Build-Depends: debhelper (>= 5.0.0), cdbs, xsltproc, docbook-xsl, docbook-xml, perl, perl-modules, kdelibs-data, kdelibs-bin
<nixternal> not a question, but definitely needs an explanation
<nixternal> debhelper and cdbs aren't really needed as they are for packaging purposes only
<nixternal> *xsl and *xml are definetly needed
<nixternal> perl and perl-modules are so that we can use the firefox-translation script (python anybody?)
<nixternal> I think that is about it, time is up
<nixternal> any questions, I live in #ubuntu-doc, email me at nixternal@ubuntu.com
<nixternal> ubuntu-doc@lists.ubuntu.com
<nixternal> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam
<nixternal> thanks again everyone for listening in!
<nixternal> HERE IS imbrandon !!
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o imbrandon]  by ChanServ
<imbrandon> how is everyone tonight
<imbrandon> sorry i'm late
<imbrandon> nixternal, you wanna field the question ( if there is any )
<nixternal> sure
<nixternal> I will be back in 10 minutes to field them
<imbrandon> k
<nixternal> or since you are dead last
<nixternal> when you done, just -m the place
<nixternal> everyone is cool today!
<imbrandon> just -m now, we'll be fine
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-m]  by nixternal
<imbrandon> ok so lets get this rockin
<nixternal> ok everyone, when imbrandon says it is question time, get to askin'! :)
<imbrandon> everyone doing ok ?
<samgee> yeah
<imbrandon> sooo what is a resource primer you ask?
<imbrandon> basicly an intro on what you can find where
<imbrandon> like LP ( launchpad.net ) for bugs
<imbrandon> the diffrent areas of the wiki
<imbrandon> etc
<imbrandon> wow, slow night ?
<imbrandon> ok lets do this
<imbrandon> I'm Brandon Holtsclaw, a Ubuntu core-dev that works mostly on kubuntu
<imbrandon> hows everyones OpenWeek going ?
<imbrandon> ( note: its -m here now so you can talk here )
<samgee> I'm having fun
<imbrandon> [..] 
<txwikinger> great, thanks imbrandon
<jordiR> yes, great
<imbrandon> Great to hear, what kind of session would you all like to see in the next OpenWeek ?
<imbrandon> or even between now and then
<imbrandon> session*s*
<samgee> good question
<robotangel> uh, I slept away the day ^^
<imbrandon> robotangel, thats ok :) i did yesterday :P
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-classroom:nixternal] : The Ubuntu Open Week || SCHEDULE: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek - SCHEDULE CHANGES, PLEASE SEE THE TIMETABLE || RULES: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules Please respect them || LOGS: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs || Ask questions and chat in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, "QUESTION: <insert question here> || Current session: Resource Primer - Brandon Holtsclaw (imbrandon)
<robotangel> btw that's a good question - I could tell which I liked most this time but I haven't any new, creative ideas ^^
<samgee> Advocacy 101 or something
<jadhog> I'd like to know what the expectations are if we want to do a session? Or how to fully get a devel environment for a language
<jadhog> up and running
<zorglu_> i got ideas but im no sure they fit in ubuntuschool kindof stuff. like 'how to make your project known', 'how to build a cross plateform package'
<Monika|K> I would like one about patching that doesn't assume everybody knows how to do it.
<zorglu_> or some newage business guys, explaining the 'new way of the internet'
<zorglu_> Monika|K: you have been unsatified by the various motu session ?
<samgee> Maybe invite someone from another distro's community to get their perspective on Ubuntu
<nixternal> ooh, I like that samgee
<zorglu_> Monika|K: even when rereading the session ?
<jadhog> Oh status of Language integration on *buntus
<nixternal> Monika|K: I am with you on the MOTU session as well. Granted I have been doing MOTU work now for about a year, there are just some things I would like to see done
<zorglu_> yep, some debian guys explaining his view on how to collaborate better with ubuntu
<zorglu_> Mon
<zorglu_> Monika|K: hang around on #ubuntu-motu, they are nice
<samgee> zorglu_: I was thinking further away, like Fedora (the _real_ competition)
<Monika|K> I liked the MOTU session
<jadhog> Oh, How to take a package in RPM format, import it into debs and get it integrated
<Monika|K> but there was one about patching and it began with that he assumes everybody knows patching
<zorglu_> samgee: and you want a fedora guy to explain that ?
<Monika|K> it was only about how it is special/different in Ubuntu
<Monika|K> so a different session about patching that doesn't assume that would be nice, too
<zorglu_> samgee: personnaly im a bit afraid it would turn into a religious war
<jadhog> zorglu_: I agree
<Monika|K> Chat sessions with people from other distros would be nice, but not in #ubuntu-classroom / UbuntuOpenWeek
<samgee> zorglu_: yeah, but wouldn't the CoC (theoretically) prevent that?
<Monika|K> this is about getting people to join in contributing
<Monika|K> someone from a different distro could say little about that
<zorglu_> samgee: in theory :) coc is the goal, not the day2day reality
<samgee> Monika|K: an outside perspective might be usefull to see what we're doing wrong or what they're doing better to attract people
<zorglu_> i definitly agree that big people from outside would be cool
<robotangel> Monika|K, do you mean "Patching Packages" with pitti?
<robotangel> I wasn't as interested in this as I was in some other topics but I think I remember that he even explained the "cd"-cmd
<zorglu_> in fact what i like about openweek, is the fact it is like a conference but from home
<jadhog> MonikaJK: would it have helped if there had been some material attached to the talk before hand?
<zorglu_> i would like to see other conference like that
<samgee> robotangel: he explained a lot, but it was pretty fast
<habeeb> zorglu_: yes, this Open Week was great.
<Monika|K> I think it was that one, robotangel
<habeeb> Kinda repeatativ but what the hell..
<Monika|K> yes, taht would have been very helpful, jadhog
<Monika|K> for many sessions
<zorglu_> hmmm btw what about having the speaker doing audio instead of text ?
<Monika|K> e.g. nobody even knew what a "resources primer" is supposed to be
<habeeb> (imbradon died?)
<zorglu_> like the audience could chat on irc, but the speacker would be on audio and the audience would listen to him live ?
<Monika|K> I don't know what Screencasting is
<Monika|K> and so on
<habeeb> Monika|K: screencasting is to answer questiosn with videos instead of text.
<habeeb> Check this, Monika|K http://doc.ubuntu.com/screencasts/
<Monika|K> ah, thx
<zorglu_> Monika|K: screencasting is taking 'what is happening on a computer screen and makeing a video out of it'
<zorglu_> ok where are the gurus ?
<jadhog> imbrandon wants us to say what we'd like to see this session as well as next Open Week.
<zorglu_> imbrandon: what do you think abotu my suggestion to have the speaker doing 'audio' and spreading the stuff via a 'radio' instead of irc ?
<jadhog> ;butchers names daily
<txwikinger> wow ubuntu-radio
<Monika|K> I wouldn't like that
<zorglu_> Monika|K: why not ?
<Monika|K> most people who are not native English speakers can read English a lot better than understand someone speaking
<txwikinger> let's see if the marketing  provides the UWN in the future as mp3 or livestream
* ryanakca back
<Monika|K> one can't join the session in the background at work
<samgee> I think that's a good idea because IRC scares a lot of newbies
<Monika|K> one can't go away for a few minutes and then return and read the stuff one missed
<ryanakca> hmm... what happened to imbrandon's lesson?
<jadhog> ;agrees
<habeeb> Monika|K: good points.
<zorglu_> Monika|K: all valid points
<Monika|K> I think IRC scares few newbies
<orientalexpress> hi there i got abit of a problem and wondering if you guys can help me please ?
<ryanakca> yeah
<Monika|K> and the instructions given are clear
<Monika|K> IRC tutorials are linked
<txwikinger> if it is recorded you can listen to it later too
<zorglu_> Monika|K: i could make good point on audio too. i guess both format are valid
<samgee> it scared me and I still feel a little uncomfortable with it
<Monika|K> yes, but you could only listen to it entirely, not join in after missing five minutes
<habeeb> First of all, UOW requires much more publicity. I mean in the forums there are 4000 users online at any given time, and only 300 in this chatroom.
<txwikinger> I like to have something I can listen to when I am driving :D
<Monika|K> nobody would listen for seven hours
<habeeb> brb.
<Monika|K> but seven hours of IRC is not unheard of
<ryanakca> orientalexpress: ask in #ubuntu
<Monika|K> people with slow internet connection can't use audio
<Monika|K> at least not so well
<Monika|K> and those who really can't / don't want to use IRC couldn't ask questions
<Monika|K> which is the main point, isn't it
<Monika|K> otherwise they could just read documentation in the wikis
<ryanakca> hmm...
<ryanakca> yeah
<samgee> there could be an online form for submitting questions
<orientalexpress> id liked to but soo many users it just scrolls up lol
<zorglu_> Monika|K: hehe you really want me to explain why audio is better :)
<habeeb>  zorglu_ go ahead. Right now, Monika|K , made some great points.
<jadhog> zorglu_: maybe it could be an add in
<habeeb> And where the hell is imbrandon ...
<jadhog> (03:17:40 PM) imbrandon: Great to hear, what kind of session would you all like to see in the next OpenWeek ?
<orientalexpress> anyways problem is my external usb hard drive is not detected in windows or 6.10, it crarshes when i stick in the usb for windows but is invisible for ubuntu. any ideas ?
<zorglu_> ok first i dont think audio is 'definitly' better than 'irc'
<jadhog> That was the last thing I heard
<zorglu_> this is just another format
<habeeb> orientalexpress: ask in #ubuntu
<Monika|K> it would be technically a lot more difficult to get the speakers to use voice
<robotangel> orientalexpress, use #ubuntu or ask at ubuntuforums
<Monika|K> what should be used, Teamspeak?
<zorglu_> 1. about the arguement of 'seeking' aka choosing from where you start reading/listening, this is ok with audio too
<Monika|K> can it deal with hundreds of listeners?
<ryanakca> jadhog: yep, an easy way to get away from a lesson, ask an open ended question, and the attendees can take care of it :)
<jadhog> See I could handle audio, if it was to tie up those "Big questions"
<zorglu_> 2. about the bw, yep text uses much less bandwidth than audio. but most current internet user have the bw to listen to internet radio (less than 10kbyte/s)
<jadhog> that would take forever to type answers to
<jadhog> lol ryanakca
<zorglu_> 3. one big issue with audio is: it is less 'indexable' aka if the log of irc is on the web, google and co can trivially index it, and you can find it more easily
<zorglu_> audio are not indexed by google and co
<samgee> and Vorbis uses less bw than mp3 anyway :)
<ditsch> hmm, i think audio will end up in a mess if it's not prerecorded cause everbody will speak at the same time
<ditsch> and if you mute someone you have to record it to preserve it for q+a ;)
<zorglu_> 4. audio are much nicer to listen than to read a long text. those audio 'song' could be released on a open license and thus people could uses it in podcast or their own radio
<ditsch> that's a lot of effort, irc is way easier
<jadhog> why not just festival the text if someone is craving the audio?
<jadhog> or is unable to read it due to a medical reason
<samgee> ditsch: I think only the host should have audio with questions through text
<zorglu_> 5. usage case of delayed listening: 3week after the cond, i download the 3 show i want to listen, put that on my 'mp3player' and listen to that while i go to work in the subway
<ditsch> samgee, you mean kinda mixing media?
<habeeb> zorglu_: you can also print the log...
<ditsch> but then we have to be in irc anyway^^
<zorglu_> 6. usage case of 'sync' listening (the one i m personnaly interested it :): i tune my audio player on the audio stream and goes on coding while im listening to the conference :)
<Monika|K> many of the sessions concentrated on some URL or on some command line commands, they would not be very useful on audio
<zorglu_> habeeb: yep clearly, but try it yourself :)
<SigmaX> Audio might be nice for a certain even or two -- like for the plethora of users who aren't IRC buffs -- but the IRC format shouldn't be abandoned.
<samgee> ditsch: yes, host reads text questions and answers them
<zorglu_> all in all, i dont say that audio is the 'best' or anything like that, but it has definitive advantages. but clearly not all
<Monika|K> You can't listen to a classroom session and code at the same time
<zorglu_> according to me the most important disavantage is the impossibility to index them
<zorglu_> Monika|K: i do i all the time
<ditsch> hmm, i am still not convinced, maybe i am just a bit too old-fashioned :P
<SigmaX> ManikalK: Lol, hear hear!
<Monika|K> ditsch, I am not conviced, either
<samgee> Monika|K: you can't type in two windows at the same time either
<zorglu_> Monika|K: no classroom session, but audio books or even video incrustation on the bottom right of my screen
<imbrandon> wow , total internet loss
<imbrandon> sorry fellas
<Sanne> I'm on a traffic allowance and couldn't afford to listen to all those sessions I would want to. I'm also more confortable reading and typing english than listening/speaking. I think text/irc is the least common denominator, so I'd favour that one over audio.
<jadhog> :P
<Monika|K> audio books are entertainment are different
<samgee> imbrandon: you missed all the great ideas :)
* ufuntu_away gnight
<SigmaX> imbrandon: welcome back
<jadhog> We are currently discussing inclusion of audio into Open Week
<imbrandon> samgee, i ahve a log
<imbrandon> have*
<imbrandon> great
<Sanne> I also agree with most of what Monika|K sais :)
<zorglu_> yep audio have some advantages and some disadvantages
<zorglu_> antoher advantage is that it is more 'lively' :) reading text doesnt pass the personality of the speaker
<jadhog> it'd be nice to have a video like the Rails folks have for some of the complex stuff
<Monika|K> it has so many disadvantages, it can't be used for most if not all UbuntuOpenWeek sessions
<jadhog> for after fact review
<Monika|K> whether it passes the personality of the speaker depends on the speaker
<ditsch> zorglu_, i disagree with that. what is more interactive than irc?
<zorglu_> jadhog: the screencasting from rails people ?
<Monika|K> e.g. kiko was quite a jester
<jadhog> zorglu_: yes
<txwikinger> I think some sessions were good for audio... Ask Mark for instance
<zorglu_> jadhog: seeeing is believing :)
<zorglu_> jadhog: there is a ubuntu screencasting team try to do the same
<txwikinger> And what about multi-media
<zorglu_> ditsch: but you cant tell if im smiling or crying while im typing
<Monika|K> zorglu_ and it doesn't matter
<Monika|K> it's a classroom session
<habeeb> word
<Monika|K> not a psychological session ^^
<habeeb> it's not theater.
<zorglu_> hehe
<ditsch> Monika|K, ack!
<zorglu_> well ask eduubuntu people if the personality of the teacher doesnt affect how efficient he is with the students :)
<samgee> why not ask jono to consider doing an audio session to see if works. He's quite the audio freak
<Monika|K> and I hope none of the speakers was crying ^^
<jadhog> sobbing into their keyboards
<zorglu_> well it was just a suggestion, i dont want to push anything, just to make sure it has been considered as a possibility
<Monika|K> what technology could be used for the broadcast
<samgee> Asterisk
<ditsch> if you'd ask jono it will end up in a metal jam session ^^
<zorglu_> Monika|K: internet radio is a well know tech
<jadhog> So aside from what could be used to bolster talks, what Subjects would people like to see?
<samgee> what do the tllts guys use? They have a live stream
<zorglu_> jadhog: i would like to see people external to ubuntu, but related, like people giving opinion on what is a dekstop
<zorglu_> jadhog: how to make a living and still do opensource fulltime
<zorglu_> jadhog: i dunno if it is in the scope of -classroom tho
<ditsch> jadhog, maybe some intro to common used programs like Ooo or that bling-bling stuff?!
<jadhog> Have a laundry list of the bling bling that would be most likely to be covered?
<ditsch> think that would attract users, too not only more the technical and spiritual staff
<Monika|K> zorglu_ like people from the KDE or GNOME project? yeah, that could be good
<Monika|K> what's "bling-bling"?
<jadhog> I think, things like compiz
<ditsch> compiz/beryl
<zorglu_> Monika|K: yep, could be nice, like aseigo coming to talk about kde4, or similar 'future stuff'
<ditsch> howto get it work and manage to be more productive with it
<ditsch> that would be nice i think
<jadhog> Would something like Workflows in KDE or Gnome be a good start?
<jadhog> Applications for workflows?
<ditsch> sounds interesting, also
<zorglu_> without the word workflows :)
<jadhog> :P
<ditsch> lol
<zorglu_> but yep, tutorial on kde/gnome etc...
<zorglu_> 'what can you do with firefox and all the addon'
<jadhog> would this be an entire 'track' starting small?
<jadhog> Firefox tutorials would be nice
<jadhog> So how basic do we start at for the KDE or Gnome sessions?
<zorglu_> yep up to now openweek was close to 'presentation of ubuntu stuff'
<samgee> Isn't OpenWeek supposed to be about how you can help the Ubuntu community?
<zorglu_> may doing more in the direction 'tutorial on how to use soft found in ubuntu' :)
<ditsch> isn't ubuntu openweek about ubuntu in general?
<Monika|K> Firefox extensions is not really related to Ubuntu
<Monika|K> doesn't get people into volunteering for anything related Ubuntu
<zorglu_> i dunno i asked several time the scope of openweek but got no answer yet
<Monika|K> the Mozilla people would have to do such a classroom session, if they wanted to
<jadhog> let me post
<jadhog>   learn about the Ubuntu landscape    talk to some of the key developers from the Ubuntu project    find out about the Community and its relationship with Canonical    participate in an open Q&A with Mark Shuttleworth, the founder of Ubuntu    much more...
<jadhog> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
<zorglu_> ok so it is more 'discover ubuntu community'
<jadhog> A lot of this would fall under the "much more" category
<Monika|K> 'tutorial on how to use soft found in ubuntu' would certainly be off-topic
<ditsch> everything starts with using ubuntu ;)
<Monika|K> has nothing to do with getting people into developing, bug triaging, translating or anything
<zorglu_> jadhog: yep because all the 'discover ubuntu community' is what is already covered :)
<Monika|K> this is not a beginner's intro to Ubuntu
<ditsch> why not?
<Monika|K> because that's not what UbuntuOpenWeek is for
<Monika|K> it is for getting new volunteers
<zorglu_> Monika|K: well 'much more' is pretty large and vague :)
<Monika|K> "much more" related to volunteering, community work and so on
<zorglu_> large enought to put anything in it :)
<Monika|K> not really
<zorglu_> well 'learn how to code kernel' is 'much more' :)
<ditsch> ^^
<ditsch> then you'd have to acquire linus for a session
<SigmaX> Beginners don't use IRC.
<Monika|K> there was a kernel session, ditsch
#ubuntu-classroom 2007-04-28
<Monika|K> oh, many beginners do use IRC
<ditsch> really? i missed that :(
<Monika|K> who are all these people asking beginners' questions in #ubuntu otherwise ;-)
<SigmaX> I stand corrected.
<zorglu_> estimation of 9milliions ubuntu installed, 1000user in #ubuntu
<SigmaX> I'm just thinking of 98% of my Windows-using friends, stuffing them into the "just-switched-to-Ubuntu" box.
<Monika|K> they are more likely to use forums, though, I'd agree
<zorglu_> just to give an idea of irc representativity :)
<robotangel> yep, this was a very informative hour :)
<jadhog> lol
<Monika|K> before I switched to Ubuntu, 98% of the people whom I knew on IRC used Windows
<Monika|K> so there is no reason recently switched people would not be using IRC
<SigmaX> MonikalK: I'm thinking of computer user base in general.  Technical useres of any OS will be more likely to use IRC, but not your every day joe.  But I digress OT...
<zorglu_> i imagine Monika|K counting all the people he know, doing stat and all :)
<Monika|K> oh, most of the people I knew on IRC played games like me
<Monika|K> I knew for most of them whether they used Windows or Linux
<samgee> I have been using Linux since 2001 and my first IRC session was in the first OpenWeek last November
<jadhog> I know what I'd love to see
<jadhog> How to push some language into the tree
<zorglu_> jadhog: wow how many people would be interested :)
<Monika|K> I have also been using IRC only pretty recently, like for two years or so
<jadhog> sadly, good point
<Monika|K> the leader of my alliance forced me to use it ;-)
<Monika|K> in an online game
<zorglu_> jadhog: there is a 'weird language motu team' tho
<jadhog> Really?
<zorglu_> jadhog: yep :)
<jadhog> Maybe that should be a session, zorglu_, what motu's are out there, and how to join
<Monika|K> Weird languages? Like Klingon? ;-)
<jadhog> Ruby
<jadhog> Pike
<jadhog> Eiffel, Squeak
<jadhog> Rebol
<zorglu_> jadhog: well this one has been done twice this week i think :)
<jadhog> zorglu_, I see
<samgee> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Teams/UncommonProgrammingLanguages
<jadhog> Very nice samgee
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o nixternal]  by ChanServ
<doctormo> hmm
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o PriceChild]  by ChanServ
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-classroom:PriceChild] : The Ubuntu Open Week continues at 15:00 UTC || SCHEDULE: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek - SCHEDULE CHANGES, PLEASE SEE THE TIMETABLE || RULES: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules Please respect them || LOGS: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs || Ask questions and chat in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, "QUESTION: <insert question here>
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-oooo Amaranth elkbuntu imbrandon PriceChild]  by PriceChild
<jrib> task0: which part is confusing?
<task0> jrib: me here
<task0> in what order is -rwxr-xr-x
<jrib> task0: which part of the wiki is confusing?
<task0> i'm not english native
<jrib> task0: ok, you understand there are "user/owner", "group", and "others" permissions?
<ubuntu> no
<ubuntu> i don't understand too?
<ubuntu> what permision is 9999
<jrib> !permissions > ubuntu (see the private message from ubotu)
<task0> jrib: who is other?
<jrib> task0: anyone that isn't the owner and not in the group that owns the file
<ubuntu> jrbib ok i will see but with two words,do you know them in your memory.
<jrib> ubuntu: I do, and you can follow along while I explain to task0 if you want
<ubuntu> ok
<ubuntu> i only want to know it.
<jrib> k
<ubuntu> go explain.
<jrib> relax :)
<ubuntu> i'm relaxin
<ubuntu> before two minute i was in Barcelona
<task0> so the order in rwx is owner group other
<task0> read write execture
<jrib> task0: alright lets look at your permission as an example:  -rwxr-xr-x
<jrib> the first space says whether or not it is a directory (it will have a 'd' there if it is a directory)
<jrib> then there are 9 others
<jrib> --- --- ---
<jrib> the first set of 3 correspond to user permissions
<jrib> the middle 3, for group
<task0> user=me?
<jrib> and the last 3 for others
<ubuntu> jrib this is difficult
<jrib> task0: whoever the owner of the file is
<ubuntu> one question who is others???
<task0> i can have a file not owned by me? =S
<jrib> ubuntu: anyone not the owner or the group that owns the file
<task0> ubuntu:  anyone that isn't the owner and not in the group that owns the file
<jrib> task0: a file can be owned by any user on your system
<ubuntu> like someone put the file from ftp?
<task0> as long as i know i'm the only user, appart from root
<jrib> task0: yes, root owns most of your system
<task0> in what group am i?
<jrib> task0: you are in many
<jrib> task0: type 'groups' to list them
<task0> task adm dialout cdrom floppy audio dip video plugdev scanner netdev lpadmin powerdev admin
<jrib> yep
<ubuntu> are you on laptop?
<task0> no
<task0> desktop
<ubuntu> ups?
<task0> no
<ubuntu> ok
<task0> why?
<ubuntu> powerdev?
<ubuntu> i don't have it.
<ubuntu> scanner too?
<jrib> ubuntu: what version of ubuntu?
<task0> i dont know what is it
<task0> no scanner
<ubuntu> ubuntu feisty
<task0> same here
<jrib> ubuntu: did you do an upgrade or fresh install?
<ubuntu> upgrade
<task0> fresh here
<jrib> ubuntu: that's probably why
<ubuntu> ok explain man.
<jrib> ok, lets continue with permissions
<task0> so with chmod i change permission
<jrib> in each group of 3, you can have r for "read", w for "write", and x for "execute"
<jrib> so what would this mean:  -rwxr-xr-x ?
<jrib> the first dash we ignore
<jrib> and we have: rwx r-x r-x
<jrib> that means rwx for the user/owner so he can read, write, and execute
<task0> yes
<jrib> r-x for the group so anyone in the group that owns the file can only read and execute
<task0> read and execute to group and other
<jrib> and others have the same
<task0> so how do i know who owns a file?
<jrib> task0: ls -ld file
<jrib> the 3rd column is the owner and the 4th column is the group
<jrib> hmm
<ubuntu> is that was all?
<jrib> ubuntu: no, but we've lost task0
<ubuntu> Task0??? connection lost,where did you go,PIG calling dog,WHere are you.
<ubuntu> I mean Dog calling PIg.
<jrib> ubuntu: do you have any questions?
<ubuntu> no
<ubuntu> only to chat.
<jrib> k
<ubuntu> thanks that you ask
<ubuntu> and for how days you remember the permission on linux.
<jrib> ubuntu: you mean the numbers?
<ubuntu> aha
<jrib> yes?
<ubuntu> yes the numbers
<ubuntu> for how days you remember the permissions.
<jrib> ubuntu: ok, so you get 3 numbers xxx .  The first number is for the owner/user, the second number is for the group, and the last one is for others
<jrib> so lets just look at what one number means
<jrib> ubuntu: are you familiar with octal?
<ubuntu> yes i study ccna
<jrib> great
<ubuntu> ok lets see then .
<jrib> for user you have 3 spaces --- .  The first one is for "read", the second for "write", the last for "execute"
<ubuntu> ok i get it
<jrib> erm I guess it's more like binary then :)
<jrib> so if you have 7 that's 111 in binary
<ubuntu> hex?
<jrib> that means read, write, and execute
<jrib> 101 would be read, no write, and execute and that's 5 in decimal
<ubuntu> 7 hex is like something like 111
<jrib> 7 hex is 7
<jrib> 7 = 1*2^2 + 1*2^1 + 1*2^0
<task0> jrib: i'm also here
<ubuntu> hmm ok,go i will after that what was.
<jrib> task0: welcome back
<task0> i missed all the class :'(
<jrib> ok let me start over, I don't think I was clear
<task0> xchac hun
<task0> hung
<task0> and couldnt restarit
<ubuntu> ok start again
<task0> i had to restar my pc
<ubuntu> xchac?
<jrib> ok, we've seen that the permissions can apply to the owner/user, the group, and others and each triplet in --- --- --- represents those permissions
<jrib> so we want to just look at one of those.  Lets say the user permissions for example
<jrib> and we are going to see how we can represent that as a number
<task0> yes
<jrib> normally you see it as rwx or r-x, but it could just be 111 and 101 since you can tell that the first spot means read if it is a 1, the second spot means write, and the last spot means execute
<jrib> does that make sense?
<task0> no, sory
<jrib> k
<task0> 111 = rwx?
<task0> ooo
<task0> ye
<task0> s
<task0> now i get ir
<jrib> k, basically you have 3 blanks --- and if the first blank corresponds to "read", the second blank "write", the last one "execute"
<task0> it*
<jrib> using letters just makes it easier to read
<task0> so rwx = 111 and rw- = 110
<jrib> exactly
<task0> yes
<jrib> ok
<task0> but what about all the 666 777 =?
<jrib> one second
<jrib> lets stick with just the user part for now
<jrib> lets say you have 101
<task0> ok
<jrib> instead of saying 101, you view that as a binary number and convert it to decimal
<task0> i'm not good at binary
<jrib> so 101 really means 1*2^2 + 0*2^1 + 1*2^0
<task0> 1 multyplied by 2 elevated to 2?
<jrib> the first spot tells you if you have a 2^2 (or 4), the second spot is if you have a 2^1 (or 2), and the last spot is if you have a 2^0 (or 1)
<task0> what is ^
<jrib> so it's 1*4 + 0*2 + 1*1 if you want
<task0> ?
<jrib> task0: exponent
<task0> ok
<jrib> like 2^3 means 2*2*2
<task0> yes yes
<jrib> ok, so for example what would 011 be?
<jrib> 0*4 + 1*2 + 1*1 = 3
<task0> 0*2 + 1*2 + 1*2 ?
<jrib> haha yes
<task0> slow typing
<task0> sory
<jrib> ok, so if your user has read and write permissions but no execute, you see that as 110 and just display it as 6 (1*4 + 1*2 + 0*1)
<task0> i still dont get that
<jrib> task0: which part?
<task0> all the bonary thing
<task0> bimary
<task0> isn't 1 -- 2 -- 3
<jrib> well you know how when you normally see a number like 587 that really means 5*10^2 + 8*10^1 + 7*10^0?
<task0> so rwx = 7 (1+2+3)
<jrib> 1+2+3 is 6 :/
<task0> lol
<task0> heh
<jrib> it's 4, 2, 1
<task0> read = 4
<task0> yes
<task0> there
<task0> write = 2
<task0> ex = 1
<jrib> write, because read means a 1 in the first spot 100, and the first spot there corresponds to 2^2
<jrib> s/write/right
<jrib> ugh
<task0> can't i change permission ussing the --- --- --- ?
<jrib> yes
<jrib> ubuntu asked about the numbers
<ubuntu> yes i asked
<task0> it's ok
<ubuntu> but don't remember when?
<jrib> ok, so to finish, if you have read and write for the user, that is 110 which is 6, and then if group and others are just read, then they are each 100 which is 4.  So you would represent that as 644
<jrib> when you have 3 numbers like that, the first number gives you permissions for the user, the second for the group, and the last for others
<task0> so chmod 664 file will do?
<task0> sudo chmod
<task0> becouse is inside system dir's
<jrib> task0: that's not what you asked, what permissions do you want group to do?
<jrib> task0: wait, what file are you chmodding?  chmodding system files can really mess up your system
<jrib> ubuntu: does the number thing make sense?
<task0> jrib: i installed enemy territory
<task0> a game
<task0> it isntalled on /usr/local/games/enemy-territory/et
<jrib> task0: ah, that's ok then
<jrib> you should still be able to run it as your user
<task0> jrib: i want -rwxr-xr-x
<task0> let me
<task0> try
<jrib> task0: wait
<jrib> task0: so group has r-x, what number is that?
<ubuntu> jrib up-down man,i only see that i forget the binary
<ubuntu> i need to return to open the book in lesson 2
<task0> 5
<task0> ?
<jrib> task0: right
<task0> so 755
<task0> :D
<jrib> yes!
<task0> wuiii
<jrib> now, there is a much easier way to do this so you don't need to learn the numbers
<task0> heh
<task0> i need that
<task0> :D
<jrib> you can do stuff like:  chmod u=rwx,g=rx,o=rx file
<task0> do i need to give all u, g and o or i can only give one?
<jrib> you can give just one
<task0> like chmod u=rwx
<task0> ok
<jrib> yep
<task0> in time i think numbers will be faster and easyer
<task0> thank you jrib
<jrib> sometimes, chmod can also let you do u+r so it only adds the r permission and doesn't touch other stuff
<jrib> with numbers you can't do that
<jrib> task0: yw
<task0> jrib: can i ask you another thing?
<jrib> task0: sure
<task0> can i check if my fstab is correct?
<jrib> sure, you can check, I won't stop you :)
<ubuntu> what is fstab?
<jrib> !fstab
<task0> lol, but how can i do that?
<ubotu> The /etc/fstab file indicates how drive partitions are to be used or otherwise integrated into the file system. See http://www.tuxfiles.org/linuxhelp/fstab.html and !Partitions
<jrib> task0: gksudo gedit /etc/fstab     you may want to make a backup if this is your first time
<task0> o  yea that another thing... whats the difference between sudo and gksudo?
<jrib> !gksudo
<ubotu> If you need to run graphical applications as root, use  gksudo , as it will set up the environment more appropriately. Avoid ever using  sudo <GUI-application> 
<task0> ooo
<task0> but sudo nano or sudo vim is ok?
<ubuntu> and sudo -i will be rppt
<ubuntu> i mean root
<task0> rppt?
<task0> sudo != root?
<ubuntu> root unlimited access.
<ubuntu> root access.
<task0> jrib: http://pastebin.ca/462090
<jrib> task0: that looks fine, is there anything wrong with your setup?
<jrib> task0: you made your /home ext2?
<ubuntu> hmmm
<ubuntu> are you want to delete/create in ntfs?
<task0> jrib: the last time i booted in the loading gui it went to text and sed something about my doing something wrong unmounting... can i check that somewhere?
<task0> jrib: yes, in #ubuntu they told me to
<task0> ubuntu: no
<task0> jrib: is that wrong? can i correct it?
<task0> hello?
<ubuntu> adn what you need to do?
<jrib> task0: it's not wrong, it's just default to have ext3 because of the journaling
<task0> !journaling
<ubotu> Sorry, I don't know anything about journaling - try searching on http://bots.ubuntulinux.nl/factoids.cgi
<task0> =S
<task0> can i convert it to ext3?
<ubuntu> gnome partition
<jrib> you can, I don't know how offhand
<task0> do i win/loose something with ext2?
<task0> !ext3
<ubotu> ext3 is the default filesystem on Ubuntu, and the most popular on Linux. You can read/write from Windows to ext3 via http://www.fs-driver.org
<task0> !ext2
<ubotu> Sorry, I don't know anything about ext2 - try searching on http://bots.ubuntulinux.nl/factoids.cgi
<nalioth> task0: ext2 is not journaled.
<nalioth> ext3 is ext2 with journaling
<ubuntu> yo can write from windows to ext3?
<task0> nalioth: what is journaled?
<ubuntu> what this mean.
<nalioth> ubuntu: you can, but i don't recommend it
<ubuntu> nalioth i only ask.
<nalioth> task0: journaled means it keeps checksums in case the system is incorrectly shut down
<task0> mmm
<task0> i think i really need that!
<task0> can i convert it somehow?
<nalioth> task0: ext3 is the way to go.
<task0> nalioth: how can i convert it?
<nalioth> i used to know.
<task0> or i have to delete and create a new partition?
<nalioth> i forgot  :(
<nalioth> no, it can be converted
<jrib> http://batleth.sapienti-sat.org/projects/FAQs/ext3-faq.html has the command
<nalioth> gracias, jrib
<nalioth> jrib: have you been spamming my mailing list?
<jrib> have I?
<task0> http://www.troubleshooters.com/linux/ext2toext3.htm
<nalioth> i got a spam from your name t'other day
<task0> nalioth: do you speak spanish?
<nalioth> task0: yes, it's quite easy.
<ubuntu> now
<jrib> nalioth: the nun list?
<nalioth> task0: yo hable poquito espanol
<ubuntu> lets see step-by step
<nalioth> jrib: yes, it was pure spam, and i'm just joking with you.
<jrib> nalioth: ah I was wondering if someone had figured out my clever password
<task0> nalioth: jrib; can some1 of you guide me?
<ubuntu> i have xt3
<ubuntu> ext3
<nalioth> no, it was another jrib
<nalioth> task0: it's a simple one line command
<jrib> he needs to unmount first though
<ubuntu> hey i have too installed knoppix but it won't boot why?
<task0> nalioth: do i have to edit my fstab?
<ubuntu> i have windows vista,ubuntu and knoppix how can i make knoppix to boot too.
<nalioth> task0: does your fstab have ext2 in it?
* nalioth steps off the floor in favor of Professor Jrib
<task0> nalioth: http://pastebin.ca/462090
<jrib> I'm killing zombies atm
<jrib> correction, I'm a zombie now D:
<ubuntu> is knoppix rrun in ext3
<task0> ='(
<ubuntu> tsmithe`: much proxy you change/
<task0> !umount
<ubotu> Sorry, I don't know anything about umount - try searching on http://bots.ubuntulinux.nl/factoids.cgi
<nalioth> task0: depending on which drive is ext2, you may have to change that entry
<jrib> task0: yeah, you need to edit your fstab to say ext3 instead of ext2.  I think the easiest way to accomplish this is to reboot in recovery mode, unmount whatever partition has /home, do the command to convert, edit your fstab, then reboot
<task0> jrib: could you step guide me?
<ubuntu> and why he don't make it in live cd
<task0> so i cant write it down?
<task0> in paper
<jrib> task0: ok, 1. reboot in recovery mode (choice in the grub menu)
<task0> old good paper
<jrib> 2. umount /home
<task0> sudo?
<jrib> no
<ubuntu> no
<task0> ok
<jrib> recovery mode gives you a root prompt
<ubuntu> you are rooy
<ubuntu> i mean root.
<task0> yes
<jrib> 3. tune2fs -j /dev/hda2
<ubuntu> !tune2fs
<ubotu> Sorry, I don't know anything about tune2fs - try searching on http://bots.ubuntulinux.nl/factoids.cgi
<jrib> 4. nano /etc/fstab
<ubuntu> !nano
<task0> do i need to install that package?
<jrib> 5. change "ext2" to "ext3"
<ubotu> Text Editors: gedit (GNOME), Kate (KDE), mousepad (Xfce4) | Terminal-based editors: vi/vim, emacs, and nano (user-friendly). | HTML/CSS editors: !html | Programming: !code
<jrib> 6.  reboot
<jrib> task0: you shouldn't need to install anything
<task0> ok
<jrib> task0: make sure you have e2fsprogs
<ubuntu> ?????? only to change it to ext3?
<task0> i have e2...
<jrib> he may be able to do it directly on a mounted partition, but since I've never done it before, I give him the cautious way...
<task0> ok
<task0> brb
<ubuntu> ok make it how he tell you
<task0> yes
<task0> wait for me
<ubuntu> but then why are gnome partition,if the persons can change it with nano
<ubuntu> now when i write knoppix nobody write
<jrib> ubuntu: try the knoppix channel?
<ubuntu> jrib i only want to ask
<ubuntu> jrib i have vista,ubuntu and knoppix don't want to start.
<ubuntu> but knoppix is linux?
<jrib> yes, but this is an ubuntu channel :)  You'll have better luck in the knoppix channel
<ubuntu> jrib.It is like that you go in Microsoft and tell something for LInux,then you will say i need to tell it,becouse nobody will thing that i say.
<jrib> I don't understand
* task0 is back
<task0> so how do i check if i done things rigth?
<ubuntu> jrib i see one day a microsoft that start to explain about windows 2003 server,that work well,and then someone stand up and say perdon but what are the different in windows and linux
<jrib> oh ok
<ubuntu> jrib: yeah it is long story.
<jrib> task0: type 'mount'
<task0> jrib: http://pastebin.ca/462124
<jrib> /dev/hda2 on /home type ext3 (rw)
<task0> why is
<task0> but /home ies
<task0> ext3    defaults        0       2
<jrib> yep, you did it
<task0>  / -> ext3    defaults,errors=remount-ro 0       1
<task0> s,errors=remount-ro
<task0> is that needed?
<task0> on /home?
<jrib> nope
<task0> ok
<task0> is a log created on boot?
<task0> (gedit:5772): GnomeUI-WARNING **: While connecting to session manager:
<task0> Authentication Rejected, reason : None of the authentication protocols specified are supported and host-based authentication failed.
<task0> esd: Esound sound daemon already running or stale UNIX socket
<task0> /tmp/.esd-0/socket
<task0> This socket already exists indicating esd is already running.
<task0> Exiting...
<ubuntu> see ya,i'm going to see star wars galaxies.
<task0> @[] }{~jnnn
<task0> jrib: thankyou very much for your help and patiance
<task0> nalioth: thanks also to you
<task0> where are you from guys?
<nalioth> Houston, Texas
<task0> jrib?
<jrib> task0: boston
<task0> =)
<task0> was really nice to chat with both
<task0> and thanks for helping an ubuntu newby
<ubuntu> i'm here
<ubuntu> task0 search for warez
<task0> will back in the future
<task0> ubuntu: sory?
<ubuntu> Spain Near Barcelona
<task0> you are there?
<ubuntu> task0 looking for some pass a time
<ubuntu> yes man.
<task0> hablas castellano?
<ubuntu> si,pero aqui prefieren ingles hombre.
<task0> jeje
<ubuntu> ja
<ubuntu> ok man send some kiss in Argentina
<task0> =)
<task0> bay all
<task0> !
<ubuntu> bye to you.
<ubuntu> did someone use he Bastard Disassembler v0.17
<elkbuntu> tsmithe-weechat, do you mind terribly if you /part the classroom channels until your connection settles?
<dAndy> elkbuntu: /ignore * JOINS PARTS QUITS MODES NICKS
<elkbuntu> dAndy, i'm an op. i took an oath to not use /ignore
<BHSPitMonkey> ... or, in xchat, right-click on the channel and toggle parts/quits
<BHSPitMonkey> of course, not everyone is sensible enough to use xchat... ;)
<dAndy> elkbuntu: heh, i ignore all the noise, and use the nicklist plugin so I can see who is in the channel
<BHSPitMonkey> but elkbuntu is!  \o/
<dAndy> in irssi of course
<dAndy> irssi > all
<elkbuntu> dAndy, that's great. if i was to ignore join/parts, i'd have totally missed that botnet of 50 doing /part spam last night ;)
<Lynoure> It's easier for one person to be away until their connection settles than for everyone to ignore parts/quits. It's not like they get much out of their choppy classroom experience to start with
<elkbuntu> Lynoure, precisely :)
<dAndy> elkbuntu: yeah I understand, glad I'm not an op for that reason :)
<BHSPitMonkey> heh
<BHSPitMonkey> /ban tsmithe-weechat "Until you get your act together!"
<elkbuntu> BHSPitMonkey, since his connection seems to have stabilised, im not going to bother, but a /remove is better anyway
<BHSPitMonkey> eh, I've never had to learn the ins and outs of opmanship
<elkbuntu> well, /remove is like kick, but doesnt trigger rejoin on kick scripts ;)
<leojay> anyone knows why "man localtime" returns "No manual entry for localtime"? how to lookup an API? ps, i'm using ubuntu 6.10, thanks.
<Helmi> you should probably reask in #ubuntu - this is not a support channel
<leojay> i tried, but nobody answered me :/
<Helmi> then probably nobody knows the answer
<leojay> i thought i could get the answer in classroom.
<leojay> sorry for the ot.
<harrisony> !forum
<ubotu> The Ubuntu forums can be found at http://www.ubuntuforums.org
<leojay> thank you.
<Daviey> @schedule london
<ubotu> Schedule for Europe/London: 29 Apr 15:00: Local Teams | 01 May 16:00: Kernel Team | 01 May 19:00: Mozilla Team | 02 May 13:00: Edubuntu | 02 May 21:00: Xubuntu Developers | 03 May 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team
<Hobbsee> Daviey: another hour
<ubuntu> wowoow
<ubuntu> lesson
<Daviey> Hobbsee, good stuff - thanks
<popey> moo
<ubuntu> mamammmmaaa
<Hobbsee> ubuntu: ?
<ubuntu> Hobbsee: yes?
<Hobbsee> was jus twondering if your keyboard was going crazy or something
<ubuntu> just testing the button.
* popey wonders if any ops will be about later
<popey> when the session starts
<ubuntu> popey: you see,one is here.
<Hobbsee> popey: hopefully
<Hobbsee> popey: elkbuntu will probably stay up
<popey> heh
<popey> i will expect heckling then :)
<popey> have most other people this week had this channel +m ?
<elkbuntu> Hobbsee, no i wont. i have to run a session at 6 or 7
<Hobbsee> elkbuntu: yuck
<Hobbsee> popey: yeah - it's been +m for a lot of the sessions, that i've seen
<ubuntu> why it is need to be ops
<elkbuntu> i have other thngs to do tomorrow, so i cant stay up until then, unfortunately
<ubuntu> nobody will kill someone.
<popey> what time is it there now elkbuntu ?
<Hobbsee> 12.26am
<popey> ahh
<ubuntu> where is this 12:2 am
<elkbuntu> half midnight
<popey> its okay, I'll talk your ears off at UDS instead ;)
<elkbuntu> popey, somehow i believe you
<popey> :)
<popey> \o/ wifey has returned
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o LjL]  by ChanServ
<popey> lo
<jrib> hi
* jrib things rynakca is experiencing technical difficulties
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+b *!*@ubuntu/member/ryanakca]  by LjL
<jrib> thinks even
<Hobbsee> yeah, seems so
<popey> \o/ for ignoring joins and parts :)
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-b *!*@ubuntu/member/ryanakca]  by LjL
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o LjL]  by LjL
<popey> Look at the time :)
* popey pokes LjL 
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o LjL]  by ChanServ
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-classroom:LjL] : Welcome to the Ubuntu Open Week || SCHEDULE: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek - SCHEDULE CHANGES, PLEASE SEE THE TIMETABLE || RULES: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules Please respect them || LOGS: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs || Ask questions and chat in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, "QUESTION: <insert question here> | CURRENT SESSION: Screencasting Team, by Alan Pope
<popey> \o/
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o popey]  by LjL
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o LjL]  by LjL
<popey> Thanks LjL
<popey> ok, here is the plan:-
<popey> * Introduction
<popey> * Brief history of screencasting
<popey> * Brief history of the screencasting team
<popey> * Useful Links
<popey> * How do we make screencasts?
<popey> * How do other people make screencasts?
<popey> * How/why do we convert videos to other formats (or "There are formats *other* than OGG!?")
<popey> * How do we make them available?
<popey> * What can people do with them?
<popey> * What we should be doing
<popey> And of course any questions as they come up
<popey> * What we need / how you can help
<popey> * Update from the last session
<popey> * What else can we do / any questions?
<popey> * Introduction
<popey> Hi, my name is Alan Pope, I'm an Ubuntu user just like you. I don't work for Canonical, I'm not a system admin, or a developer in fact I can't really code at all. Oh and I have no artistic skills whatsoever.
<popey> I do however have some experience of IT Training so making screencasts makes sense to me as a way of contributing to the community because it's something I can actually do!
<popey> * Brief history of screencasting
<popey> "A screencast is a digital recording of computer screen output, also known as a video screen capture, often containing audio narration." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Screencasting - read the first paragraph of that
<popey> Some people learn better by being shown how to do stuff rather than by reading detailed How-Tos or man pages. Whilst this is an alien concept to many geeks who memorise URLs of How-Tos and commit entire man pages to memory, your average Joe Ubuntu User needs pretty pictures and videos.
<popey> So for this reason I created a few screencasts.
<popey> * Brief history of the screencasting team
<popey> About 7 years ago I was working for a company doing IT training on evil software. We had an idea over coffee one day to make some videos that people could watch online. At the time Viewlet Builder (proprietary app) was available and seemed to do the job of recording screen activity quite well.
<popey> I registered quickones.org to host them, because we thought they would be quick videos, 5 minutes about how to perform a particular task on a computer. Unfortunately the project never really got anywhere so the domain got used for something else.
<popey> Cut forward to 2005 when I started looking at screencasting tools on Linux. I tried some of the desktop recording tools, and some video editing software to see if I could make screencasts that would render well over the web or downloaded and played locally. Some of the tools are pretty good, I filed a few bugs, requested some features and contacted the authors of some of the applications.
<popey> I settled on a suite of tools (more of that in a moment) which I use to do my screencasts. It was (and still is) important to me to make screencasts using completely free tools. i.e. not use windows applications such as camtasia to make the screencasts - but thats a personaly thing :)
<popey> After making some test videos and sending them to my local LUG mailing list for evaluation I started making lists of screencasts that people might want to watch. I tried to figure out what people would want to see, common questions people ask and funky new things new users might not know about.
<popey> A few people tested the videos and gave me some feedback about the format, style and content of the screencasts. Towards the end of 2006 I made a bunch of "feature length" screencasts. They are each about 5-10 minutes long and cover some basic concepts such as installation of Ubuntu and customising the desktop.
<popey> Matthew East contacted me and offered some help and hosting on the documentation team server - which we are now using. We setup the screencast team on launchpad and more recently had a meeting on irc to discuss the direction and technical issues surrounding screencasting.
<popey> It was decided that we should target the current release (Feisty) for new screencasts. We also decided to drop the default resolution from 1024x768 to 800x600 because some popular machines couldn't play them due to driver bugs, and the video files were very large with little added value at the higher resolution.
<popey> (Note: This might actually come back to bite us, many screens in Ubuntu don't fit in 800x600 - for example System --> Preferences --> About me)
<popey> Ok, thats the history lesson over.
<popey> * How do we make screencasts?
<popey> The tool set _I_ use is QEMU+KQEMU(or KVM) (virtual machine), xvidcap (screen recording), avidemux (audio recording), ffmpeg and avidemux (format conversion)
<popey> Some people prefer other tools, I happen to have settled on these because they work for me.
<popey> In just slightly over one sentence:-
<popey> "I install Ubuntu in a QEMU vm which runs in an 800x600 window on my desktop (we used to use 1024x768 but this casued problems). I run xvidcap on my desktop and set it to record the QEMU window only. I do my demo in Ubuntu under QEMU and when finished I stop xvidcap. I watch the video back, recording the audio track in audacity as I go. I merge the audio and video in avidemux and upload to the web"
<popey> It sounds a lot easier than it actually is. And in a way, it sounds a lot harder than it actually is :)
<popey> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScreencastTeam/RecordingScreencasts for considerably more detail.
<popey> Some people have reported that this process is complicated (recording audio separately from video), doesn't perform well (some people get low frame rates out of xvidcap), and cumbersome (running a virtual machine rather than recording the local machine direct). These are of course all valid concerns :)
<popey> On the wiki we outlined the reasons for doing it this way. Of course other people can create screencasts in any way they want, this is just the way that works for us. So long as people can create high quality screencasts in a format that we can use, we really don't care how they are made.
<popey> If anyone has a better (more streamlined, faster, easier) way to create screencasts _on_ _Linux_ (i.e. not using a Windows/Mac screencasting app) which results in high quality video in formats we can use, we want to hear it.
<popey> If you have any questions about the way we make screencasts, please do ask and I'll try to answer them as best I can.
<popey> * How do other people make screencasts?
<popey> There are a load of screencasting apps on Linux.
<popey> Istanbul, RecordMyDesktop, screenkast, DemoRecorder (proprietary), and of course xvidcap we would recommend.
<popey> vnc2swf, vncrec and wink we would generally not recommend for our screencasts (they record to formats that are difficult to manipulate).
<popey> There are good reasons I don't recommend some apps, and that's all detailed on the wiki, but by all means ask any questions and make any comments about these judgements :)
<popey> Examples of some quality screencasts made by other people, that you might want to look at include those at http://ubuntuclips.org/, http://screencastsonline.com (Mac OSX videos) and http://showmedo.com/ .
<popey> I am not going to give you examples of bad screencasts - you can find them on youtube and google video yourselves, and when I say "bad" that is entirely my personal opinion, feel free to argue that one with me some time :)
<popey> * How/why do we convert videos to other formats?
<popey> It's a bit beyond this session to go into the intricate details of the different formats for the screencasts. Suffice to say that in general there are at least 4 formats we support. Put simply, OGG for the Good, MOV for the Bad, and AVI for the Ugly. FLV is the 4th, (evil) flash based streaming which is done because of the popularity of the flash video format.
<popey> Whatever you think of flash, it has a massive install base, and that's a lot of potential eyeballs for our screencasts.
<popey> It might also make sense to convert screencasts so they can playback on small format devices such as iPod Video and mobile phones.
<popey> Whatever happens, we _always_ intend to make our videos available in OGG/Theora/Vorbis format as a primary objective.
<popey> We hoped this would not change, but due to the tremendous bandwidth we have consumed we may have to reconsider the way we host the files.
<popey> Avidemux is a great GUI application for converting videos. You can load a video made in another application and save it out in some other format using a different codec and can also do neat things like resize as the file is converted. Perhaps we need an avidemux screencast? :)
<popey> In addition ffmpeg can be used on the command line to convert between formats. We also use ffmpeg2theora to convert MPEG/AVI files to OGG/Theoa format. Other tools have been tried, and suggestions are welcome for other robust, easy to use, flexible tools.
<popey> * How do we make them available?
<popey> http://doc.ubuntu.com/screencasts/ is the central repository for all the screencasts that have been made under the Screencast Team banner. This is hosted on a box provided by Canonical. We also upload them to Google video.
<popey> These are videos actually made by the team specifically _for_ the team (and anyone else) to redistribute. We don't take other peoples ready-made videos off YouTube for example, I know http://ubuntuvideo.com do a good job of collating video content - including screencasts - in that way.
<popey> In the past we uploaded the videos to http://archive.org/ however whilst free it's a little painful and the performance is somewhat slow. So now we host on the docteams server - big thanks to Matthew East (mdke) for helping us out there. Some of these videos are large and as such chew bandwidth when linked to.
<popey> * What can people do with them?
<popey> Pretty much whatever you like. I rather stupidly created the videos initially under a restrictive license. This was pointed out and now the videos are available under CC BY-SA 2.5 (http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.5/). Just to be clear:-
<popey> You can redistribute the videos in any format and media you like.
<popey> You do _not_ need to ask our permission to redistribute them.
<popey> You can translate them to other languages - perhaps by overdubbing the audio track, create mashups, edit them, whatever. We really don't mind.
<popey> Of course we also want people to make their own and contribute back! :)
<popey> * What we need / how you can help
<popey> Rationalisation of the screencasting pages on the wiki. Many of the screencasting pages (http://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScreenCasts and its children) are brain dumps of what we were doing to make screencasts at the time. These pages need some love. They need simplifying. Help!
<popey> We need a very very very simple guide to making screencasts. The problem is it's not that easy to make good quality screencasts. People have suggested a "screencast on how to make screencasts" which we have considered but it's also not exactly easy to make (technically).
<popey> We have a list of screencasts we would like to see made:- https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScreencastTeam/Requests
<popey> Please add to this list, or adopt a screencast and make it yourself.
<popey> If we can streamline the process I think we can get more people to make them. We would love to hear input on how we can make things easier.
<popey> Voice overs/dubbing. I understand from speaking to some people that they don't like the idea of their own voice on a screencast. If that's the case, and you have a video you would like to make, then _please_ let me know. We need the videos made, we can record the audio track if that would help.
<popey> * Update from the last session
<popey> I was asked whether xvidcap was packaged in ubuntu. It currently isn't. Since that session I have contacted the author and we are going to work together to try to get it into the Ubuntu repository. So that's great news.
<popey> I have got hold of the usage logs for doc.ubuntu.com and it's quite scary. The most popular (by KB transferred) videos are
<popey> 3. Installing updates on Ubuntu - http://doc.ubuntu.com/screencasts/Installing_Updates_on_Ubuntu
<popey> 2. Installing Ubuntu Dual-boot - http://doc.ubuntu.com/screencasts/Installing_Ubuntu_with_Windows_Dual-Boot
<popey> 1. Downloading and burning an Ubuntu ISO - http://doc.ubuntu.com/screencasts/Downloading_and_Burning_an_Ubuntu_ISO
<popey> We are transferring a ridiculous amount of data from the site. It's quite scary.
<popey> We have a potential issue in that the bandwidth we have consumed is way over what we expected and more than Canonical pay for on the server we host on.
<popey> We may have to look at reducing the number of formats down. Perhaps only one downloadable version and one streamable version?
<popey> Maybe we should have less videos online at once?
<popey> Maybe we should provide the larger videos on DVD instead of the web?
<popey> Other suggestions welcome!
<popey> * What else can we do / any questions?
<popey> Q&A Time.
<popey> Ok, that's the end of my prepared stuff..
<popey>  < magnetron> QUESTION: Have you been considering aggregating the videos as pod-cast, for easy deployment into Democracyplayer, iTunes and iPods?
<popey> Yes, I had considered it. But one of the golden rules of podcasts seems to be "release on time" so people know how often to expect your programme.
<popey> and we have had very little submissions :(
<popey> having just had a baby in this house I have made few recently, but I should ramp up a bit now
<popey> but what is really needed is lots of other people doing it too
<popey> and if I can help in anyway to get people making them I will.
<dthomasdigital> Question: You said that the pages need organized who do we contact if were willing to take this on?
<popey> me
<popey> :)
<popey> alanpope@ubuntu.com
<popey> or popey on irc
<popey> QUESTION Why not include torrents links and encourage people only to use direct donwload if there are no sources for the torrent. I know that some people keep a torrent client open alle the time anyway for
<popey>                 uploading Ubuntu iso images, so why not use that? I would support it that way !
<popey> good point. never thought about using torrents
<popey> one torrent per video perhaps?
<popey> Ior one almighty big torrent?
<popey>  < nothlit> btw, pyvnc2swf comes with an editing tool, that can convert the file to MPG--and from there any format you wanted
<popey> i does, but I found it somewhat unreliable when I used it, things may of course have changed since then
<popey> also the flv files that are created by pyvnc2swf arent fantastic quality compared to the MPEG ones from xvidcap
<popey> but I guess for some screencasts it might be good enough
<popey> < nicolai_> QUESTION: When do you think UbuntuStudio will be ready to be released?
<popey> I have no idea, ask them
<popey> no, don't do that :)
<popey> I have been approached and had lengthy discussions with the guys at showmedo about them holding some of the content and serving up .flv files
<popey> but flv makes me very twitchy
<popey> especially as it does not play out of the box on ubuntu
<popey> doesnt play at all on some other platforms
<popey> no AMD64 version etc
<popey> I would be interested to know why people dont create screencasts
<popey> is it the procedure is too complicated?
<popey> or something else? not enough power to run qemu/xvidcap?
<popey>  < Schalken> QUESTION: how does gtk-recordMyDesktop compare to others?
<popey> only tried it briefly and it seems to have quite a few nice features
<popey> xvidcap seems to be the most feature rich though
<popey> istanbul is probably the easiest to use
<popey> recordmydesktop is probably somehwere between the two
<popey> on usability and functionality
<popey>  < magnetron> QUESTION: What could be done to integrate the wiki with the screencast tutorials? Would linking to a corresponding screencast from importan tutorials in the wiki be a good idea?
<popey> Hmm. Good question. Do you think it would be wise for us to lift the content from the screencast site and put the links on the wiki?
<popey> might be a good idea actually
<popey> i will do that and see what it looks like, good suggestion, like it, thanks :)
<popey>  < Schalken> COMMENT: i have had problems with Istanbul's stability
<popey> recently?
<popey> submit bugs, the author is very attentive. I have reported a few bugs and been in contact with the developer, he is a nice guy :)
<popey> hmm. I haven't use istanbul for a while since I have been smitten with xvidcap :)
<popey> one problem istanbul has is that it encodes to ogg on the fly
<popey> which can make for intense cpu activity
<popey> that has mostly been addressed in newer codec versions
<popey> 6:34:37 < Schalken> COMMENT: approx 6 months ago
<popey> 16:36:27 < Schalken> COMMENT: wouldn't that cause problems? I know I get best performance out of recordmydesktop when i set ti to do all encoding afterwardds.
<popey> well, it streams to disk all the time, so it doesn't all buffer up in memory then spit out at the end
<popey> it used to have a function where you could "encode later" but the author took it out
<popey> I have reported a bug to get it put back in :)
<popey>  < samgee> QUESTION: I guess I don't create screencasts because I suck at teaching. People don't seem to get what I'm saying, or newbies find my easy ways of doing things difficult (and the other way around).
<popey> good point.
<popey> I would say let me know if you want to create one and I can give some guidance
<popey> maybe suggest things to do
<popey> if you dont like your voice, or dont like the idea of people hearing it or whatever, I can voice over for you
<popey> For anyone thinking of making a screencast, please let me know, I can help :)
<popey> The key thing for me is to get more of them made
<popey> right now on the site there are only about 8 screencasts, 7 of which I made
<popey> we need lots more than that
<popey> 16:40:55 < Schalken> QUESTION: any tips on getting the best audio quality out of screencasts (recording from system output, not a mic)?
<popey> I am no expert on the audio, and I do very little post processing
<popey> all of the ones on the site that I made were recorded through the mic port on my old hp 1GHz celeron laptop
<popey> so not the best quality
<popey> I do have a good mic though
<popey> somewhat over the top in fact
<popey> :)
<popey> when you say system-output?
<popey> you mean, the system sounds and the like?
<popey> I don't record any of that - or haven't yet
<popey> i know qemu can direct all output to a wav file though, and that works nicely
<popey> then you have an audio file containing all the sound that was made by the virtual machine
<popey>  < Schalken> QUESTION: what do you use to record your voice, and how do you put in the video?
<dthomasdigital> Question: I have a nice USB mic any hints on getting it to work?
<popey> I use a Shure SM58 connected to a mixer, which is then connected to my laptop
<popey> I record using audacity
<popey> sorry dthomasdigital I have never used a usb mic, I do have a usb extigy sound card which I hope to use instead of the mic port on my laptop
<popey> that just worked out of the box with zero effort
<popey> bought it off ebay
<popey> the thing about doing the audio separately from the video is that you can easily re-record it
<popey> this is why i dont record audio and video together
<popey> now feisty is out, we need more screencasts of the stuff in it
<dthomasdigital> I've created a document on how to change xorg.conf files is that the kind of thing your looking for?
<popey> if it explains how to do something that someone would not know how to do, yes :)
<dthomasdigital> gotcha
<popey> I am trying to stay away from terminal type stuff though
<popey> none of the screencasts I have recorded even show a terminal
<popey> maybe later I will
<popey> but i think it is important to have lots of screencasts that show that you dont need a terminal to work in ubuntu (mostly)
<dthomasdigital> I see your point the terminal really freaks some people out.
<popey> yes
<popey> i have made one that i have not put online yet, which has a terminal in it
<popey> but it is all about dosemu so i think thats okay :)
<popey>  < samgee> QUESTION: Is it possible to visualize rightclicks and holding the Ctrl button instead of just saying it?
<popey> that is a good question
<popey> not that I am aware of
<popey> i know one of the mac screencasting apps has something that can do that
<popey> to focus your attention
<popey> maybe we need a little icon of a mouse on the screen
<popey> which highlights the buttons when you press them
<popey> that cant be hard to write :)
<popey> quick, someone write it :)
<popey> the thing about terminal is that its text, so you can easily explain it with a text document
<popey> and people can copy and paste
<popey> you cant copy/paste a right mouse click though :)
<popey> which is why screenshots and screencasts are popular for graphical tutorials
<popey> 3 < Schalken> IDEA: have the screencasting app insert stylish little notifications in the video for when the demonstrator is pressing keys
<popey> an onscreen keyboard that pops up perhaps?
<popey> and an onscreen mouse
<popey> hmmmmm
<popey> i like both of these suggestions
<popey> might have to try to grab a developer at UDS next week :)
<popey>  < Schalken> CONTRARY: you dont want space being used up by keys that aren't being pressed. just a little picture of the button that is show while pressed would be cool
<popey> maybe it could be brought up with a keypress of some kind
<popey> F12 or something, then type
<popey> hmmm
<popey> needs thought
<popey> < Schalken> ALSO: it has to looks damn good
<popey> goes without saying :)
<popey>  < magnetron> IDEA: editing the screencast manually and add an icon showing right-click etc
<popey> 16:55:15 < Schalken> OR: a setting before starting the record "visualise key presses"
<popey> editing is possible I guess, easier if it happened automagically though?
<popey> i suspect the "visualise" option to be an external application
<popey> that way it doesnt matter what screencasting app you use
<popey>  < samgee> But you don't want to visualize every key when you're typing a bit of text
<popey> yeah, just specific function keys or "special moves" :)
<popey> Right-Right-Right-FIRE!
<popey> ok. I will write a specification for both thes, on screen keyboard and on-screen mouse
<popey> anything else screencast specific?
<dthomasdigital> Question: popey is there a Screencasting team on Launchpad?
<popey> 16:58:03 < nothlit> an icon would have to be pretty large for it to be legible for those viewing the screencast in flash applets
<popey> 16:58:16 < Schalken> IDEA: tell macslow, he can make stuff look awesome and transparent
<popey> yes nothlit
<popey> ScottLij: exactly the right person!
<popey> ok, good point dthomasdigital, here are some useful links :)
<popey> * Useful links
<popey> ** Our pages
<popey> http://doc.ubuntu.com/screencasts/ - Home of the screencasts made by the screencast team.
<popey> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScreenCasts - Base of the screencast team wiki pages.
<popey> http://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-screencasts - Launchpad team page.
<popey> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScreencastTeam - Team pages on the wiki
<popey> ** Other people doing good work
<popey> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScreencastTeam/RecordingScreencasts - The method I use to make screencasts.
<popey> http://ubuntuclips.org/ - Have generated a large number of screencasts.
<popey> http://ubuntuvideo.com/ - Aggregate video content (not just screencasts) from YouTube/Google (so all flash based).
<popey> http://showmedo.com/ - Free and pay-for screencasts on various topics
* jenda looks at his watch
<popey> right, I think we are about done.
<popey> I want to thank all of you, it's been a very useful session for me
<popey> lots of great ideas
<popey> <end>
<jenda> :)
<jenda> Hello folks :) I hope I didn't cut popey off too soon.
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o jenda]  by ChanServ
* nicolai_ does a test
<jenda> My name is Jenda Vanura and I'll be talking about the Marketing Team.
<jenda> If it weren't for the Marketing Team, I wouldn't be here right now...
* nicolai_ would like to know, if /me ist the only one who can see this
<jenda> No, honestly, I would've come at 20:00 UTC thinking I was supposed to talk - they did a remarkable job of reminding me the time was 16:00 :)
<jenda> nicolai_: we can see ya
<jenda> Anyway... I'll start off by saying that I do not lead the marketing team. We have decided the MT should have no official leader on our first meeting. I'll return to the structure of the team later.
<jenda> On the previous session, I said I was hoping for some marketing team folks to drop in later and talk a bit about their own projects, but in the end only beuno arrived, so we'll see how that turns out today.
<jenda> At the beginning of the Open Week, jono said I'd be talking about marketing.
<jenda> Well, don't be fooled... I know nothing about marketing.
<jenda> I'll be talking about Ubuntu's Marketing _Team_
<jenda> There are others much more qualified to talk about actual marketing and as I said, they might appear a little bit later on.
<jenda> (but experience has shown they also might not :))
<jenda> The MT's most interesting attribute, IMO, is the fact that it's a place where even the least technical of us Ubuntu lovers can find a way to contribute.
<jenda> The MT is a loosely knit group of projects, listed on the MT's wikipage (/MarketingTeam), most of which are constantly looking for volunteers to help out.
<jenda> You can also start new projects affiliated with the Marketing Team at any time - we will most probably help you out :)
<jenda> Now that mentioned wikipage is a bit outdated, for which I apologize. It's the most obvious shortcoming of the MT's leaderlessness - there's no particular person responsible for that page.
<jenda> (with the exception of our deserted wiki-man, whom I won't name here :)
<jenda> The Marketing Team is a pure community effort and has little or no contact with Canonical's proffessional marketing, save the occasional consultation.
<jenda> This means that the Marketing Team is no formal/legal entity and has no budget of its own.
<jenda> With no budget - professional marketing is out of the MT's reach.
<jenda> The MT focuses on what the community can do best: grassroots marketing.
<jenda> Currently, what the MT is doing, what I think it should be doing and what it could be doing in the future are three largely disjunct categories.
<jenda> Well, no, not disjunct - the latter two overlap.
<jenda> The Marketing Team's only truly active projects are the Ubuntu Weekly Newsletter (which I assume all of you read on a regular basis...)
<jenda> and the Fridge, which maintains its existence rather separately from the MT.
<jenda> Another active and complete project is the ubuntu counter (it's a fire and forget kind of project)
<jenda> All three of these have one important aspect in common
<jenda> they focus _within_ the community
<jenda> The UWN and the Fridge are both news sources for the community - outsiders probably couldn't care less.
<jenda> (although I believe the two aren't mutually redundant - each has its place)
<jenda> The counter, on the other hand, is also only of interest to the Ubuntu user, who wants to see his own number as a user. Once again, Joe Windows User couldn't care less (although he'd probably be interested in a total estimate of Ubuntu users, which is currently from 5-8 million I believe).
<jenda> So, in all honesty... are these projects _marketing_ projects?
<jenda> I'd say no, they aren't, but they've found their place in the MT. There's nothing wrong with that.
<jenda> This is a pattern that every MT project to date has followed - and i'll admit even the DIY project I focus on most is currently focused more on current Ubuntu users than non-users.
<jenda> I hope to be able to get to the details of these projects towards the end of the session.
<jenda> The pattern I described is, I believe clear: it's immensely easier to work for a target audience within the existing community than the TA without.
<jenda> And from this I conclude - we aughtta focus on the latter of the two! :)
<jenda> My personal opinion (and observation) is that the only _real_ marketing, as described above, can be done by LoCo teams.
<jenda> Only the LoCos have a close enough face-to-face contact with the hopeful TA
<jenda> Now I'm not saying the MT cannot do its work.
<jenda> I'm saying it needs to adjust its work, taking the above into account.
<jenda> It allows us to split marketing efforts into two basic categories
<jenda> The first category would be local marketing activities, which can only be done by LoCos
<jenda> The second would be marketing campaigns of a global nature.
<jenda> Once again, my experience says the latter category is nearly an empty set. The few thing that could be found in there (web ads and the like) are usually expensive or ineffective.
<jenda> Therefore I'll focus on the first category.
<jenda> (On second though, things like video ads and the like might belong to the second category, and would be of interest to the MT... lemme get back to that later)
<jenda> The first category would include everything from press releases, media contact, install fests, conferences, expos, face-to-face advocacy, etc.
<jenda> All these things cannot be done by the Marketing Team. The LoCos are much better suited to perform them.
<jenda> So what can the MT do?
<jenda> That is the question ;)
<jenda> The answer is: a lot of the work the locoteams do will have to be replicated by other locos in order to achieve the same result in their area.
<jenda> This means, a lot of effort can be saved by them either sharing their work, or someone (hint: MT) to predict their needs and cater to them, centrally.
<jenda> My focus within the team, and my vision for the entire team is just that - it should provide resources for the LoCo teams to use.
<jenda> (it might be interesting to notice how this role of connecting the LoCos' efforts is close to the role of communication the MT fulfills currently with the UWN and the Fridge)
<jenda> Now I think that's about all I have to say for the MT's role. I'll move on to its structure (that'll be quick ;))
<jenda> The MT is quite simply composed of individual projects, the sub-teams of which overlap.
<ubuntu> now
<jenda> There is rarely a need to decide for the entire team, and when there is, it is decided by consensus or simply acquiesced.
<ubuntu> why when i record recordmydesktop the fps is slow
<jenda> ubuntu: this is not a support channel
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+m]  by jenda
<jenda> :)
<jenda> Most notably, the decisions we make for the entire team are times of meetings.
<jenda> Usually, on of the MT members would write them out, and unless there's a complaint from someone who really has something to say at the meeting, it usually stays at that.
<jenda> I'll now move on to the individual projects.
<jenda> yay, we have 27 minutes left, we might have enough time for them, even :)
* jenda looks around for MT members who could say a bit about their MT projects
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-m]  by jenda
<jenda> I can't see anyone from the UWN
<jenda> Well, I'll just say a few quick words myself, then
<jenda> The Ubuntu Weekly Newsletter is a weekly document sent out by email, published on the wiki and ubuntuforums.org.
<jenda> It contains all sorts of info on what happens throughout the community.
<jenda> If you still haven't read it, be sure to check out wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter
<jenda> The UWN is also _created_ on the wiki.
<jenda> You know what that means....
<jenda> You are not only allowed, but also encouraged and _expected_ to help out with it.
<jenda> The UWN is short on manpower right now (well, it usually tends to be :))
<jenda> Please do look at that wiki and join #ubuntu-marketing to help bring the news! :)
<jenda> That would be all about the UWN...
<jenda> Now the DIY Marketing project.
<jenda> The DIY Marketing project is an offshoot of Spreadubuntu, and that basically because i thought SU was a chunk little too large to chew.
<jenda> meatballhat, beuno and I have been working on it, and an outline is written at wiki.ubuntu.com/MarketingTeam/DIYWebsite
<jenda> The goal of this site is largely what I said was the goal of the MT as a whole, which proves I'm implicitly biased towards this project :)
<jenda> It serves to provide resources for LoCo teams, and that namely:
<jenda> 1) Printable digital data for marketing materials // digital data for online use
<jenda> 2) Ready made marketing materials to be shipped to LoCos and individuals for as cheap as possible
<jenda> 3) Guidelines, howtos and tips on stuff you could do as a locoteam and individual to promote Ubuntu in your area
<jenda> 4) Guidelines for people interested to feed the above 3 categories
<jenda> 5) The answer to "What can I do to spread Ubuntu?"
<jenda> And now, as promised, I'll give the word to meatballhat to say a few words about the project :)
<meatballhat> hello all ... I'll keep it quick :)
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o meatballhat]  by jenda
<meatballhat> the last thing we want is for the DIY Marketing site to be the following:
<meatballhat> * an upload-crazy black hole
<meatballhat> * another Ubuntu.com lookalike .... adding to the web clutter
<meatballhat> * difficult to understand
<meatballhat> * difficult to use
<meatballhat> :D
<meatballhat> for some Use Cases, lookie here --> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MarketingTeam/DIYWebsite/DesignSpec
<meatballhat> We have recently been blessed with the direction of troy_s, leader of the Ubuntu Artwork Team
* jenda notes meatballhat is in charge of how the site's design and technical workings
<meatballhat> The development version of the site has been graciously hosted by MitchM out in Colorado
<meatballhat> it's currently in a non-working state here:  http://diy.devubuntu.com/
* jenda was hoping to hide that non-working copy which he used to call the working copy from the audience ;)
<meatballhat> when all is done (hopefully in the coming weeks) the DIY Marketing site should be a uniquely-branded and recognizable product ... much like how Ubuntu users have come to know Launchpad, for instance
<meatballhat> With the completion of the visual design spec (thanks to troy_s's direction) ...
<meatballhat> we will work to continue this type of guidance on the DIY Site itself... (see jenda's points 4 and 5 above)
<meatballhat> thanks, all!
<jenda> okeydoke
<jenda> I'll just have one more note about the shipped materials.
<jenda> To date, several community members have invested money to produce bulk materials and ship them out to the community.
<jenda> juliux here, for example, has created and shipped about 150 beautiful Ubuntu shirts for reasonable prices, and all that while generating a profit for Ubuntu DE to use.
<jenda> I myself have made and shipped over 550 posters and 7500 stickers (ordering 6000 more now :)) and generated funds for the MT and my Czech LoCo to use.
<jenda> You are all welcome to do the very same - it's a win-win
<jenda> One note worth making is that once again items focused towards the community such as shirts, stickers and decorative posters sell much better than actual marketing material, like booklets, fliers and ad-posters - which would probably be lossy.
<jenda> I personally intend to generate money with the lucrative items to be able to create the ones that have to be handed out with a loss later on.
<jenda> The DIY site will also serve to instruct and encourage people to do projects like this on their own.
<jenda> Howgh - questions!
<jenda> :)
<PriceChild> <ditsch> QUESTION: What is the relationship of the Marketing team to Full Circle magazine, if there is one?
<jenda> ditsch: a similar question was asked on the first session. The FCM is staying largely clear of the Marketing Team, but is very much supported by us and we hope to see more cooperation in the future.
<jenda> I think such a magazine is a good thing to have, and will forever admire the authors if they manage to make it interesting even for people who don't use Ubuntu yet, or have just started.
<jenda> In fact, I think I'll send them each free stickers if they do :D
<jenda> any other questions?
<jenda> okey doke
<jenda> You don't ask, I don't answer :)
<jenda> thanks for you attention, thanks to meatballhat for participation and thank to PriceChild for questions... erm... the question.
<PriceChild> hey I think it was done well :)
<jenda> :)
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o jenda]  by ChanServ
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-oo meatballhat popey]  by ChanServ
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o PriceChild]  by ChanServ
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-classroom:PriceChild] : Welcome to the Ubuntu Open Week || SCHEDULE: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek - SCHEDULE CHANGES, PLEASE SEE THE TIMETABLE || RULES: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules Please respect them || LOGS: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs || Ask questions and chat in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, "QUESTION: <insert question here> | CURRENT SESSION: Edubuntu - Oliver Grawert
<PriceChild> Where's mr ogra?
<nixternal> where is ogra
<nixternal> I just pinged him in #edubuntu
<radmen> hi ;-] 
<janjimusptfajar> quite
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o heno]  by PriceChild
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-classroom:PriceChild] : Welcome to the Ubuntu Open Week || SCHEDULE: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek - SCHEDULE CHANGES, PLEASE SEE THE TIMETABLE || RULES: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules Please respect them || LOGS: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs || Ask questions and chat in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, "QUESTION: <insert question here> | CURRENT SESSION: Ubuntu Accessibility - Henrik Nilson Omma
<heno> Hi all
<heno> Do I get an introduction? :)
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o nixternal]  by ChanServ
<nixternal> EVERYONE PLEASE STAND UP AND GIVE A ROUND OF APPLAUSE TO THE MAGNIFICANT HENO!!!
* nixternal notices the crowd go wild
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o nixternal]  by ChanServ
<heno> so this is the accessibility session. anyone here tuned in for that?
<nixternal> ;)
<heno> nixternal: thanks :))
<nixternal> no problem
<emonkey-f> 
<Belutz> hi heno :)
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o PriceChild]  by PriceChild
<heno> Hi Belutz, stgraber
<stgraber> hi heno
<heno> ok, so I won't spend too much time on explaining what accessibility is, as that would get quite boring
<heno> Instead I'll mention briefly what we have done recently and describe some of the new projects we are planning
<heno> PriceChild: will you be posting questions from -chat?
<PriceChild> heno, No i've got to run sorry :(
<heno> ok, anyone want to volunteer for that?
<stgraber> will do
* Belutz will do
<heno> great thanks
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o stgraber]  by ChanServ
<heno> So first, see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility for background info and current specs
<heno> for those who want more in-depth info
<heno> Just some brief history:
<heno> We had some access support in Hoary and Breezy, but the big advance came in Dapper when we included the new Orca screenreader in the default install and on the Live CD. With Dapper we also introduced the access menu on the first boot screen of the live CD. This allows people with various disabilities to boot in an accessible mode and install the system independently
<heno> For Edgy we introduced a new on-screen keyboard, written by Chris Jones as a Summer of Code project. It is lighter and less complex (-> less buggy) than GOK, which is important when we want to put it in the default install.
<heno> It's also usable on Tablet PCs, which GOK was not
<heno> we always try to combine access features with mainstream ones where we can
<heno> to attract more development and testing
<heno> putting it in the default install raises the requirements for rubustness, which is always good
<heno> For Feisty we introduced Braille support and multi-lingual speech synthesis. Ubuntu is thereby the first mainstream operating system that can be installed independently from scratch by a deafblind person, which is pretty cool IMO. Admittedly the usability of all this still needs work
<heno> ...
<heno> Now for the future:
<heno> We've got some pretty cool projects coming up where we get to play with new technologies.
<heno> I'm mentoring three Summer of Code projects that use compositing desktop features to enhance access
<heno> Magnification - Compiz/Beryl already has a Zoom plugin, but it needs the ability to be controlled by an assistive technology app like Orca. Using Beryl will improve the magnifier dramatically. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Specs/compiz-mag
<heno> Colour filters - Some combinations of colours can be difficult to see for colour blind users. We'll create some configurable filters for this. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Specs/ColorFilters
<heno> Mouse enhancements - Some people are not able to use a normal mouse and some just find it difficult, such as older people with shaky hands. Much of this can we addressed in software. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Specs/MouseTweaks
<heno> Also, I'm working on some speech recognition stuff - a big and complex problem, but we are making a start https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SpeechRecognition
<heno> ok, that's a brief introduction of where we are and where we are going
<heno> any question so far?
<heno> OK, I'll ask some :) How many people here have tried the accessibility features in Ubuntu?
<heno> Do they work as expected, do they interfere with other things at all?
<nicolai_> hm. I tried them one time, they worked (in edgy)
<janjimusptfajar> never
<nicolai_> But I think where was a bug that some applications looked ugly (I'm not quite sure)
<heno> I'd like to add a few tests of these things to the regular testing schedule
<heno> many of the access applications look quite ugly traditionally :)
<heno> GOK for one
<heno> oh, anyone try Dasher, that's actually quite cool
<heno> It's like an arcade game for inputting text :)
* stgraber is apt-getting it
<heno> http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/dasher/ FYI
<heno> <Pumpernickel> QUESTION: Have you, or are you planning on, marketing these features to places like senior citizen residences where the accessibility features would be either extremely useful or required?
<heno> We have had some collaboration with organisations that specialise in access
<heno> like http://www.abilitynet.org.uk/
<heno> I think access could be a good selling pint for ubuntu generally
<heno> esp. with regard to governement regulations
<heno> we're currently looking at certification relative to some new access legislation planned in California in 2008
<heno> I think it's important that the general user community knows that we have these features
<heno> so that the information can get to those who might need it, be it friends or relatives
<heno> The developing world is another important area here as well
<heno> because special tools like screen readers are very expensive
<heno> easily $500 US
<heno> just to be able to use your computer
<MikeDK> hi everybody
<heno> But no, we've not advertised it directly. It's only recently that we really had a compelling solution
<heno> thanks Pumpernickel, anyone else?
<heno> OK, I'll just conclude with some points about how people can help the project
<heno> * End user support in the forums and on mailing lists - http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=145
<heno> * Test the access features when your testing Ubuntu and report bugs
<stgraber> QUESTION: Do you get a lot of feedback about these features?
<heno> * Test the synthesised voices in your native language and provide feedback https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/doc/LanguagesAndSpeechSynthesis
<heno> ^ this might actually be quite entertaining
<stgraber> ^ (question from samgee)
<heno> * Finally - code and documentation!
<heno> <samgee> QUESTION: Do you get a lot of feedback about these features?
<heno> we have an active group of users, esp. amongst the visually impaired
<heno> that group has been testing early releases and reporting great feedback
<heno> actually our team overlaps quite a bit with the upstreams like Orca
<heno> and so the feedback goes directly to them, which is great
<heno> the other big area that needs testing and tweaking now is Firefox
<heno> the access has not been great so far, but it's being reworked completely for FF3
<heno> and is getting some good developer attention
<heno> OpenOffice has improved a great deal over the past few years
<heno> I should perhaps explain, that for access to work well we need a) a framework (AT-SPI), b) assistive tools like screenreaders and c0 the applications must do the right thing
<heno> Gnome has the AT-SPI framework build in, so standard gnome apps generally work fine by default
<heno> OpenOffice and Firefox are quite unique in many ways, and so need more work
<heno> KDE also has some catching up to do ...
<heno> I'd love to see both Gnome and KDE converge on a common framework
<heno> but there are technical and community issues
<heno> OK, I think that's it from me. If anyone has further questions about this, there is usually someone in #ubuntu-accessibility who can answer
<heno> Thanks everyone!
<stgraber> thank you
<MikeDK> thanks
<samgee> thanks heno
<stgraber> < eduard> QUESTION: a few of my blind friends use pirate copies (we're in a developing country, they can't afford it) of screen readers for windows but resist  switching to ubuntu because of concerns over the learning curve for keyboard shortcuts etc. any ideas?
<stgraber> heno: ^
<eduard> i think heno has left :)
<heno> eduard: I beleive the keyboard shortcuts are based on the windows ones
<heno> sorry, I was away for a minute :)
<heno> There is also a learning mode in orca which tells you what shortcuts are available
<heno> and they are completely configurable
<heno> I would suggest they try the Live CD and see how it works for them
<heno> eduard: just boot, press F5 to get the access menu, 3 for Orca and Enter to boot
<eduard> heno: thanks
<heno> some more details here http://www.ubuntu.com/products/whatisubuntu/accessibility
<nixternal> OK, How many people are here for the "Starting a LoCo" talk?
* samgee raises hand and looks around
* jenda does too
<nixternal> that's it?
<nixternal> come on, the weather is beautiful here in Chicago today
<jenda> there's one more
* jenda points at awko.rama 
<nixternal> well, due to it being fairly quiet, and I am on a very tight schedule, I think what I will do is just try to answer questions for those who are interested
<nixternal> I think running the OpenWeek on Saturday & Sunday is not that great of an idea
<awkorama> me.. a bit.. not really starting one, just want to know how one works
<nixternal> OK, we can cover that a little bit
<nixternal> anyone else have anything they really want to know about a LoCo or how to start one?
<nixternal> awkorama: do you have a LoCo team in your area?
<jenda> nixternal: I would like to hear about what happens if a LoCo doesn't work right.
<jenda> nixternal: and how to go about solving it
<nixternal> jenda: they blow up
<nixternal> next question?
<jenda> haha
<nixternal> ;)
<jenda> :)
<nixternal> OK, first off, don't confuse an Ubuntu LoCo team as a LUG
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o nixternal]  by stgraber
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-oo heno stgraber]  by stgraber
<nixternal> I think that is one thing a lot of people tend to do
<nixternal> LUGs are all about geeking out and Linux and FOSS in general
<nixternal> I would say that you should at least be a member of a LUG to get an idea of what you will be facing
<nixternal> I know at first people didn't like the idea of a LoCo in Chicago, and would rather have seen us as members of their LUG and what not
<nixternal> then again, Ubuntu wasn't so popular in Chicago last year either
<nixternal> this year, wow what a change
<nixternal> anyhow...
<nixternal> To distinguish a LoCo from a LUG, the main thing you will be doing is ADVOCATING UBUNTU and UBUNTU ONLY!
<nixternal> advocating isn't the only thing though
<nixternal> but I think that is something future members of your team should know
<nixternal> they will be doing more advocating than getting together to drink some beer and hack all day, that is more a LUG style
<nixternal> of course there is nothing wrong if you and your LoCo want to do that, but don't make it your #1 priority
<nixternal> So, the big tasks for any LoCo are:
<nixternal>  * Advocating - duh, I just said that :)
<nixternal>  * Support
<nixternal>  * And if applicable, translation
<nixternal> OK, so what makes this different than any other team/membership deal in the community
<nixternal> Lo - the first part of LoCo is local. So where ever you are in the world, your goal and your job is do those 3 things, and then some, to your local area
* nixternal is hungry!
<nixternal> ;)
<nixternal> OK...so from that
<nixternal> The main reason I am supposed to be chatting today is Creating a LoCo
<nixternal> many probably wonder why I got picked, and just to let you know, i am also wondering the same
<nixternal> 1 year ago myself and Joey Stanford set out to create the first LoCo teams in the United States
<nixternal> I don't know if it was luck, or it was destiny, but both of our LoCo teams blew up, in a good way
<nixternal> Right now, Ubuntu Chicago has roughly 80 members listed on our Launchpad page, however we have hundreds in the Chicago land area alone
<nixternal> and we are continually growing
<nixternal> remember how I said to distinguish yourself from a LUG as a LoCo is not a LUG
<nixternal> well now Ubuntu Chicago incorporates more LUG members throughout the area than non-LUG members
<nixternal> so we have people with backgrounds ranging from "I just got a free CD" to "I have been hacking since 1950"
<nixternal> and you need those people, beginners to experts. Truthfully, the beginners are your greatest aspect, as they will be able to provide info that you need in order to get people to switch
<nixternal> I find it hard at times to try and tell people to switch because I am stuck in GNU mode, and probably always will, since that was the main reason I switched to Linux only in 1994/1995
<nixternal> ========================
<nixternal> that is a break because I was just rambling up there
<nixternal> ==========================
<nixternal> OK, lets look at what you need in order to create a LoCo team
<nixternal> #1 - INTEREST
<nixternal> You need people from your city, state, or country that is interested in doing everything a LoCo team does
<nixternal> Once you have the interest, and you get a solid backing, creatin the team is a breeze
<nixternal> If you can't obtain #1, hold off on anything else
<nixternal> Ubuntu Chicago started in the Forums in April of 2006
<nixternal> after about 2 days and a few pages of various people saying YES lets do this, I decided to go ahead and get the ball rolling
<nixternal> So, what did I do next?
<nixternal> don't laugh, this is actually how easy it really is to create a LoCo team
<nixternal> I added Ubuntu Chicago to the list at => https://wiki.kubuntu.org/LoCoTeamList
<nixternal> then from there I created:
<nixternal>  * https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ChicagoTeam
<nixternal>  * #ubuntu-chicago
<nixternal> THAT WAS IT!
<nixternal> We were a LoCo team, however we weren't yet official
<nixternal> OFFICIAL?
<nixternal> Official means that the Ubuntu Community Council has recognized the work you have done in advocating and supporting Ubuntu in your area
<nixternal> Once we became official, we setup the Mailing List and the Web Site
<nixternal> and recently a spot on Ubuntu Forums
<nixternal> So really, in order to create a LoCo team, you just need interest from more than yourself in your area
<nixternal> or locality rather
<nixternal> from there, it is as easy as I made it sound
<nixternal> you know what the most difficult part of creating LoCo teams are?
<nixternal> Getting a mailing list!
<nixternal> OK, question time, I rambled enough to confuse even me :)
<nixternal> I know jenda wants to know what to do when a LoCo team has issues.
<nixternal> WAKE UP EVERYONE!
<awkorama> what advocacy success do u achieved?
<janjimusptfajar> :)
* Belutz awakes
<nixternal> hahaha
<MikeDK> still alive:-P
* txwikinger is awake
* emonkey-f to
<nixternal> awkorama: we have actually had a ton of advocacy success
<chuckf> So when starting a group, how much do you have to 'do' to get approved status?
<nixternal> We have performed a few install fests, handed out thousands of CDs, pamphlets, and whatever else you can think of
<jenda> nixternal: I'm here ;)
<nixternal> chuckf: About 2 months of solid work with the LoCo team, document everything you have done, i.e., install fests, local FOSS events, sitting out front of a local shopping mall throwing CDs at people
<nixternal> chuckf: now that isn't set in stone either
<jrib> what kind of locations did you hand out CDs at?
<jenda> nixternal: there have been questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<nixternal> jrib: any location I could legally go
<chuckf> How do you get quantities of nice looking cd's without being approved?
<nixternal> jenda: tell them to bring them in here, I can't hit ctrl+n, to much work ;)
<nixternal> chuckf: you go through ShipIt, but you try and order 50 CDs, then member 2 does the same and so on
<nixternal> truthfully, I don't think it is fair for official teams to get them as easily, and not for teams starting up
<MikeDK> agree
<chuckf>  When another distro, ie IPCOP, works for an aspect of a project can we promote that?
<jenda> nixternal: it's how the openweek works!
<nixternal> I think for teams starting up they shold have the same access, it is those CDs that could help create a great foundation for the team
<jenda> nixternal: you shouldda got a secretary ;)
<jenda> nixternal: and no, I'm not available ;)
<nixternal> bah
<nixternal> chuckf: as long as your main objective is Ubuntu, throw whatever else you want to in there
<nixternal> chuckf: for instance, I am KDE through and through, for 10 years now
<nixternal> don't think that I go to an event and push nothing but Ubuntu
<nixternal> Ubuntu and the partner projects (Kubuntu, Xubuntu, and Edubuntu) are my #1 pushers for an OS
<nixternal> then there is KDE and so on
<chuckf> well IPCop I don't thin is a derivitive. However for desktop/servers its all K/X/ed/Ubuntu that I push
<nixternal> ya, another thing to, I really think the success of Ubuntu Chicago lies within all of the great people involved
<nixternal> we all get along with each other, we hang out, have a great time
<nixternal> and while we are doing that, we are pimping Ubuntu with a smile
<txwikinger> nixternal: QUESTION: what should be the granuality for LoCos... i.e. one LoCo per country (or State) or should there be a finer granuality like cities?
<nixternal> Chicago has had great success
<nixternal> thanks txwikinger
<nixternal> txwikinger: great question, my response to that is not the favorite, but obviously the most logical in many circumstances
<nixternal> If you are in the US, then States
<nixternal> country LoCo's are fine, however how can something like China, India and such have 1 LoCo
<nixternal> impossible
<nixternal> so I think location, location, location is big
<jenda> nixternal: India has states too
<nixternal> Ubuntu Chicago is city, some people think I was wrong for doing that
<jenda> nixternal: (not sure about china)
<nixternal> jenda: yes, and each one should have a LoCo
<nixternal> there are some who will not agree with that
<jenda> nixternal: and they do (except, not all do yet)
<nixternal> people don't agree with Ubuntu Chicago because it is a City, why now Ubuntu Illinois
<nixternal> Chicago consists of an area covering 4 states with roughly 9+ million citizens
<nixternal> it was definitely needed
<nixternal> I couldn't expect people from southern Illinois to run Chicago
<nixternal> we have a couple hundred volunteers, and we all find ourselves stretched thin at times
<nixternal> so you really have to play it by ear, if you are in or around a big city, then I feel a city LoCo is needed
<nixternal> Ubuntu California for instance, some of you may know how huge of a state that is
<nixternal> then you have 2 of the largest cities in the world w/in the state
<nixternal> ready Belutz
<nixternal> you can't expect 1 team to cover so much, impossible
<Belutz> <chuckf> QUESTION: How can unapproved teams get resources such as Fiesty CDs when needed for projects (install fests, interested libraries, etc)
<nixternal> play it by ear, that is your best choice
<nixternal> chuckf: I responded up a little bit, but...What we used to do is I would try and get 50 to 100 CDs, custom order via shipit
<Belutz> <samgee> QUESTION: Should LoCos be putting their efforts into converting people from other distros?
<nixternal> I would fill out the info like "there is a huge event coming, we would like to do an Ubuntu gig"
<chuckf> nix, that was an old question pasted in
<nixternal> now get each one of your members to do the same thing
<nixternal> if you put 100, you will might get 50 though
<nixternal> ya, just wanted to touch up on it
<nixternal> samgee: No.
<nixternal> reason...
<nixternal> people who are already with a distro typically have their mind made up
<nixternal> I know last year 90% of Chicago was BSD and Slackware
<nixternal> 1% was Ubuntu
<jenda> ...and besides, people already using linux will probably choose ubuntu on their own eventually ;)
* jenda runs
<nixternal> Now, I am willing to bet more than 50% is Ubuntu
<nixternal> not because we targeted them
<nixternal> but because they seen how our community was and how we kicked arse
<Belutz> <samgee> QUESTION: What are some of the amazing things LoCos have achieved?
<nixternal> so no need to target them, they will eventually realise that their distro community stinks and want the coolness Ubuntu has :)
<nixternal> samgee: man you have the tough questions
<Belutz> (oops, too fast)
<nixternal> perfect timing
<nixternal> There has been so many achievements!
<nixternal> amazing, I would say everyone of them. If you were able to bring 1 person over to Ubuntu, to me that is amazing.
<nixternal> it isn't an easy feat to accomplish
<nixternal> I think a lot of the FOSS events around the world have been manned by a LoCo team or 2, and everything we have heard was great
<nixternal> now, if you mean amazing like "delivered a baby while encrypting their file system" well then I don't know of one of them stories ;)
<nixternal> I think all work done by VOLUNTEERS FOR FREE, that is amazing to me
<nixternal> to get people to see and understand our freedoms and our joys, that is amazing
<nixternal> and we do this becuase of Ubuntu
<purpleleave> QUESTION: How many hours did you spend per day normally when running your Chicago Ubuntu?
<nixternal> wow
<nixternal> purpleleave: the first month, I was spending upwards of 20 hours a week on Ubuntu Chicago
<nixternal> but see then we didn't have the resources there are today
<nixternal> I know I wanted to make it rock hardcore, so I actually treated it like one of my businesses
<nixternal> you will definitely put in time if you are creating a LoCo
<nixternal> but it is all rewarding in the end
<nixternal> oh
<nixternal> one more thing
<nixternal> don't think that after you have it started the time will lessen
<isti> hy is that the ubuntu open week chat ?
<nixternal> I have actually gotten busier
<nixternal> isti: yes
<Belutz> <chuckf> QUESTION: How do you explain to your significant other that your 'Ubuntu luggy thing' is important? :)
<isti> oh thx
<nixternal> I have been asked to do many speaking engagements, I am up to 1 or 2 a week now
<nixternal> chuckf: I ctrl+alt+deleted her years ago
<nixternal> although, somehow she does understand
<nixternal> Ubuntu is my significant other!
<nixternal> muhahah!
<jenda> nixternal: you're scaring me.
<nixternal> shush
<nixternal> ok, jenda question tiem
<nixternal> what to do when the LoCo goes boom!
<nixternal> first thing first, you should probably see it occurring, hopefully in enough time to interject
<nixternal> disagreements are going to be had, not only in the Ubuntu community, but within any community where there is creativity
<Belutz> <samgee> QUESTION: Does Acapulco have its own LoCo and is the magic down there so strong? :)
<nixternal> I have no clue, but when they do, make sure you invite me!
<nixternal> Next year I will hopefully be living in Cabo San Lucas
<nixternal> OK, back to jenda really quick
<jenda> yay
<nixternal> when the disagreements start and you can't find a resolution
<nixternal> I would first take it up with Jono and if it is bigger, then you might have to take it to the Community Council
<nixternal> jenda: is that what you were looking for?
<jenda> maybe ;)
<nixternal> remember we have a Community Council that can help you take care of everything civilly
<nixternal> wow I just made that word up
<jenda> I was just asking to see if you had something to say about it :)
<nixternal> IRSSI needs spell checkin'
<nixternal> jenda: thanks!
<jenda> Our loco is working just fine ;)
<chuckf> and spelled it right
<jenda> hehe
<nixternal> woohoo
<nixternal> anymore questions?
* nixternal has church to get to
<nixternal> OH!!!
<jenda> nixternal: get outta here, then ;)
* nixternal is Rich Johnson, man with many hats, feel free to email me at nixternal@ubuntu.com with any questions you have about anything really
<chuckf> how do you edge a lawn with Ubuntu?
<Belutz> :)
<nixternal> chuckf: carefully, under 1500RPM
<jenda> chuckf: get yourself some old breezy shipit CDs and lay them along the edge...
<lotusleaf> nixternal: do you leave ubuntu cds in the hymnals? :)
<BHSPitMonkey> The question is, how do you edge a lawn -without- ubuntu
<nixternal> lotusleaf: yup
<lotusleaf> ha ;)
<nixternal> I will be taking about 25 with me
<jenda> BHSPitMonkey: I love you :)
<chuckf> Thanks Richard
<BHSPitMonkey> you could scissor some sharp teeth into an ubuntu cd and stick it on your edgy
<nixternal> believe it or not, my Church has helped push Ubuntu big time as well
<BHSPitMonkey> edger*
<BHSPitMonkey> :O
<lotusleaf> nixternal: righteous
<BHSPitMonkey> nixternal, have they seen Satanic Edition? :O
<nixternal> OK, rock on! Thanks everyone, and if you have any questions, don't hesitate to message me here on IRC or email me
<Belutz> nixternal, thanks for a refreshing session :)
<nixternal> BHSPitMonkey: I used the SE wallpaper for a while cuz I really liked it
* nixternal is actually an Ichthux dev, so we use that :)
<nixternal> thanks Belutz for the help!
* nixternal runs!!!#@#>>>>>
<Belutz> nixternal, anytime
<janjimusptfajar> thanks nix :)
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o jenda]  by ChanServ
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+b *!fuck@*]  by jenda
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o jenda]  by ChanServ
<jenda> sorry folks ;)
<joejaxx> how many people are here for the ubuntu studio session?
* octoberdan raises hand
* ditsch is here
* Sanne is here
* janjimusptfajar is here
* troy_s is here.
* txwikinger is here
* Belutz is here
* samgee_ too
* MikeDK here
<octoberdan> joejaxx: Some may be logging it to read it later
<joejaxx> ok we will wait a few it is not 20:00 exactly yet
* lotusleaf giggles
<joejaxx> octoberdan: ok
* radmen is also here ;] 
<tsmithe> i'm here for the session
* tsmithe huggles joejaxx
<joejaxx> tsmithe: :P
<radmen> joejaxx: yeah it's 21:54 ;p
<troy_s> tsmithe: The 'UglyAssMofosConvention' is down the hall...
* Belutz begin to get sleepy >_<
<tsmithe> joejaxx, troy_s; can i learn more about ubuntustudio?
* janjimusptfajar 04:00 AM here
* lotusleaf gives coffee to Belutz
<Belutz> lotusleaf, thanks
<lotusleaf> :)
<joejaxx> can someone relay questions once we start the q+a after the introduction of the project?
* corevette is here also
<lotusleaf> Belutz: I added some habanero juice to it
* janjimusptfajar give nice girl to Belutz :D
<Belutz> janjimusptfajar, i only sleep for 4 hours yesterday
<Belutz> s/sleep/slept
<Belutz> joejaxx, i'll try to do it
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<joejaxx> Belutz: ok thanks
<janjimusptfajar> Belutz: woooww... what your secret to do that?
<Belutz> joejaxx, hopes it makes me awake
<joejaxx> :)
<joejaxx> ok i think it is time to start
<Belutz> janjimusptfajar, the ubuntu spirit keeps me awake :D
<isti> i think ubuntu is ok
<joejaxx> Hello Everyone i am Joe Jaxx the technical lead for the Ubuntu Studio project
* janjimusptfajar looking my wife sleeping... 8|
<isti> linux is 10000000000 better than windows
<joejaxx> _MMA_ who is the project lead could not make it today and asked if i could lead the session in his stead
<joejaxx> leads*
<joejaxx> i will give a little background about the project
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o jenda]  by ChanServ
<joejaxx> Ubuntu Studio originally started as a concept from a wiki that was started
<joejaxx> to give users how tos on setting up an audio studio environment on their ubuntu workstations
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-oo tsmithe jenda]  by ChanServ
<joejaxx> a small group of people came together with this similar concept of actually creating a ubuntu flavour geared toward multimedia creation
<joejaxx> from what started as a chain mailing list, has created a full fledge Ubuntu "remix" geared towards giving ubuntu users
<joejaxx> the tools they need to expand their creativity when dealing with multimedia
<isti> what is the best game for Linux ?
<tsmithe> isti, not in here please :)
<isti> ok
<isti> i am sorry
<joejaxx> In doing this we have created three "categories" that Ubuntu Studio aims at (or types of users)
<joejaxx> Audio, Graphical and Video
<joejaxx> we provide different tools that benefit the user the best in each category
<joejaxx> for example in the audio category
<joejaxx> we provide ardour2 rosegarden jackd
<joejaxx> we also provide a lowlatency kernel (thanks BenC :) )
<isti> what could i ask here =)
<Belutz> isti, ask in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<joejaxx> We also try and work closely with upstream
<isti> no i mean whats the tema
<joejaxx> and this method works very well as people are happy to contribute to something that is benenficial to people
<joejaxx> concerning their software creation
<isti> oh good
<joejaxx> We are also about staying close to the Ubuntu community as much as possible and giving back to it
<isti> could you tell me what ubuntu studio is ? (sorry i do not now about that)
<joejaxx> We are comprised of a diverse group of individuals all working towards the same purpose
<Belutz> isti, please ask in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<troy_s> ISTI -- READ THE WIKI -- Quiet during presentation.  Thank you.
<joejaxx> our team list is located here
<joejaxx> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/TeamStructure
<isti> thanks
<joejaxx> The packages that we include in each of the categories of creativity are included here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/PackageList
<isti> i read it comes this april
<tsmithe> isti, this is not the place. #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<tsmithe> you've been referred there many times now :)
<isti> oh i am so sorry
<joejaxx> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio  This is our wiki page in case you want to read up some more about that project
<isti> ok
<joejaxx> it is currently under heavy maintenance though
<joejaxx> So that is what the Ubuntu Studio Project is about
<joejaxx> expanding multimedia creativity through ubuntu :)
<dave_> I have been really excited about about ubuntustudio, could you tell me more about the development of the lowlatency rt kernel ??
<corevette> dave_ ask in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<Belutz> dave, please ask in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<joejaxx> ok now the Q+A session
<Belutz> <awkorama> QUESTION: What NLE video programs do u provide?
<dave_> nobody is in ubuntu classroom chat !!
<jussi01> dave_: read the wiki please!!
<joejaxx> we current include kino
<joejaxx> as a non linear editor
<janjimusptfajar> where is ops? where i must write my question? here or in classroom-chat?
<Belutz> <janjimusptfajar> QUESTION: What minimum requirement to run this
<joejaxx> janjimusptfajar: the minimum requirements would be the same as ubuntu
<joejaxx> but
<joejaxx> when you are doing multitrack audio recording
<joejaxx> and video rendering
<joejaxx> those require high requirements
<joejaxx> it really depends on what level of usage you plan with Ubuntu Studio
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<Belutz> <lotusleaf> QUESTION: Does Ubuntu Studio provide an easy way for the user to enable MIDI without digging through documentation? If not, will it?
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+m]  by PriceChild
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<tsmithe> lotusleaf, as i said in -chat (and i'd like to reiterate here, joejaxx ;) ): some midi features by default require a hardware synthesizer, or the installation of timidity and configuration of the daemon (/etc/default/timidity)
<tsmithe> i'd be unsure as to why any hardware sequencers should not just work if alsa provides support
<joejaxx> yes
<Belutz> <janjimusptfajar> QUESTION: WHEN it will released?
<joejaxx> janjimusptfajar: we get this question alot
<joejaxx> the Ubuntu Studio release has been delayed and we have not set a release date yet pending this circumstances that have come up
<joejaxx> it will be released when ready :)
<joejaxx> it will be worth the wait
<joejaxx> i assure you
<joejaxx> even with the discs
<joejaxx> at the end of the installation
<joejaxx> you will be able to choose "your path" or the categories that you want installed
<joejaxx> either one a combination or all (audio, graphical, video)
<joejaxx> :)
<Belutz> <dave_> I have been really excited about about ubuntustudio, could you tell me more about the development of the lowlatency rt kernel ??
<joejaxx> yes right now we have a lowlatency kernel which has an adjusted timer
<joejaxx> and some other tweaks
<joejaxx> (thanks again BenC )
<Belutz> <janjimusptfajar> QUESTION: how about license?
<joejaxx> we will also be trying to get a full RT in but that will happen after the release
<joejaxx> we will release the discs with the lowlatency kernel
<joejaxx> and re roll the discs with the RT one after some testing is done on it
<joejaxx> for feisty that is :)
<joejaxx> Gutsy will have a RT kernel
<tsmithe> thanks BenC :P
<joejaxx> :)
<Belutz> <janjimusptfajar> QUESTION: how about license?
<joejaxx> we use the Ubuntu lowlatency kernel :P
<joejaxx> so it is licensed as Ubuntu has
<tsmithe> everything we take from ubuntu has the same licence
<joejaxx> yeap
<tsmithe> each of our own packages has its own licence
<tsmithe> and you should look into that through the normal channels
<joejaxx> ok next question as there is quite a long queue
<Belutz> <Daviey> QUESTION:  What repo are you trying to get your stuff into?  Universe or your own?
<joejaxx> regarding the repository
<joejaxx> we are trying (going back to our being involved in the ubuntu community) to get everything into universe
<joejaxx> only thing that are essential and cannot go into universe not because of licensing but because of packaging issues will go into our repository
<Belutz> <ditsch> QUESTION: Does the studio support restricted formats such as mp3 by default?
<joejaxx> no we do not include anything that ubuntu does regarding restricted formats
<tsmithe> we use the same infrastructure as ubuntu to handle codecs :)
<joejaxx> does not*
<joejaxx> yes
<joejaxx> :)
<Belutz> <Sanne> QUESTION: will Ubuntu Studio support the same architectures as the main repositories (especially amd64)?
<tsmithe> ditsch, (so easy-codec-installation should still apply where it does in ubuntu feisty)
<joejaxx> right now we are supporting only i386 but do not fear
<joejaxx> we are heavy looking into amd64
<joejaxx> heavily*
<joejaxx> since alot of people use those as audio workstations
<joejaxx> and video as well
<Belutz> <janjimusptfajar> QUESTION: where is i can find the screenshot? the link in the website is not work
<joejaxx> janjimusptfajar: i do not think we have released a full screenshot to my knowledge
<joejaxx> i might be mistaken
<joejaxx> fullscreen screenshot* that is
<tsmithe> if joejaxx is, then the website is undergoing some changes, and this may have disrupted it
<tsmithe> *minor changes
<joejaxx> yes
<Belutz> <nothlit> QUESTION: kino? What about cinelerra?
<joejaxx> ok here we go :)
<tsmithe> finally! :P
<joejaxx> We are looking heavily into Cinelerra and into packaging it
<joejaxx> there are a couple of problems though
<joejaxx> the main one is ALOT of the source does not state the license
<tsmithe> couple!!
<joejaxx> tsmithe: :P
<joejaxx> we need to go through the source manually
<joejaxx> and confirm the source for each file
<joejaxx> bah
<joejaxx> license*
<joejaxx> confirm the license*
<joejaxx> this really needs to be a community effort
<tsmithe> wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/CinelerraReview is our method, and upstream is also catching on to the importance
<joejaxx> and we would like people to help
<Belutz> <BHSPitMonkey> QUESTION: Besides simply shipping with a few relevant media programs, what does Ubuntu Studio as a project really entail?
<joejaxx> another issue is Sources being licensed wrongly
<Belutz> (oops too fast)
<joejaxx> Security updates is an issue as well
<joejaxx> as Cinelerra uses a modified version of fmpeg
<joejaxx> ffmpeg*
<tsmithe> amongst other libraries
<tsmithe> (quicktime etc etc)
<joejaxx> and using the ubuntu ones would probably hinder some of the functionality
<joejaxx> so we need to look more into that issue
<tsmithe> help out!
<joejaxx> we would really like the community to help us AND upstream with CinelerraCV
<joejaxx> it would really make a differnece
<joejaxx> difference*
* joejaxx cannot type today
<tsmithe> upstream need motivation, really
<joejaxx> yes
<tsmithe> pressure is a good motivator :P
<joejaxx> people helping == upstream motivation :)
<tsmithe> i suggest if you want to help out, you come chat in #ubuntustudio, and read the spec
<joejaxx> ok next question
<Belutz> <BHSPitMonkey> QUESTION: Besides simply shipping with a few relevant media programs, what does Ubuntu Studio as a project really entail?
<joejaxx> besides having everything in a nice package
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-classroom:tsmithe] : "Welcome to the Ubuntu Open Week || SCHEDULE: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek - SCHEDULE CHANGES, PLEASE SEE THE TIMETABLE || RULES: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules Please respect them || LOGS: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs || Ask questions and chat in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, "QUESTION: <insert question here> | CURRENT SESSION: UbuntuStudio - joejaxx
<joejaxx> Ubuntu Studio is a community
<joejaxx> a community of those who share creavitive and artistic abilities and love ubuntu at the same time
<joejaxx> we have an irc channel which is #ubuntustudio
<joejaxx> and we will soon have a ubuntu studio section on the ubuntu forums
<joejaxx> we are really about ubuntu and community that is our main focus
<joejaxx> :)
<tsmithe> and we will be working hard to make multimedia production on ubuntu rock!
<joejaxx> yes
<joejaxx> most definitely
<tsmithe> (and as ubuntu develops, we will rocket after :D)
<joejaxx> :)
<joejaxx> next question
<Belutz> <Sanne> QUESTION: will there be restricted drivers for the Ubuntu Studio Kernel?
<tsmithe> yes
<Belutz> <Daviey> QUESTION: Are the post-install options part of ubiquity or a separate app?
<joejaxx> ok
<joejaxx> about that
<joejaxx> we will only be shipping text installer cds
<joejaxx> the reason being there is not much to "try out" if there were a livecd
<joejaxx> as most stuff is backend
<joejaxx> (lowlatency kernel etc)
<tsmithe> ie it's best run from the hd, and we don't want to roll hundreds of test cds, and separate out audio/video/graphics tasks etc etc
<joejaxx> and i do not think you could do an Audio session or video editting on a livecd  (well you could but it would be a hassle: ie mounting a partition/external hard drive)
<joejaxx> it would not be wise to do that off a livecd that is
<joejaxx> the options would be right at the end of the text installer
<joejaxx> right after it installed the base
<joejaxx> :)
<joejaxx> next question
<Belutz> <Sanne> QUESTION: will it be possible to install some apps from Ubuntu Studio into standard *buntu?
<joejaxx> yes
<joejaxx> we utilize the ubuntu repository for 96% of everything
<Belutz> <fiddler59> when are the ubuntustudio meta pkgs to be updated in the repos ??
<tsmithe> that other 4% of all the packages is drawn from the ether
<joejaxx> the other 4% is stuff that could not be included in universe because of freeze policies
<joejaxx> or packaging issues
<joejaxx> fiddler59: yes i will be submitting a bug update for them soon
<Belutz> <bobmachine111> QUESTION: What about support? I know its based off of Feisty, but I tried DeMude a while back and I couldnt update without destroying a vast array of packages. Basically what I was told by DeMude support was, I had to use what DeMude came with. How will this compare to that situation?
<joejaxx> we will be trusting in ourselves and the ubuntu studio community for support
<joejaxx> as we cannot ourselves answer a 1000 questions
<joejaxx> but if the ubuntu studio community helps
<joejaxx> we can all share knowledge and answer questions
<joejaxx> #ubuntustudio will be for support questions after release (not yet though)
<joejaxx> and we will have the ubuntu studio section on the forums :)
<joejaxx> we will try and answer ubuntu studio related questions according
<joejaxx> :)
<joejaxx> next question?
<Belutz> <octoberdan> QUESTION: What will be the default window manager?
<joejaxx> we use Gnome
<Belutz> <cedrick> what version of alsa you incorpore ?
<joejaxx> 1.0.13
<Belutz> <illu45> QUESTION: Do you plan on having tutorials/lectures for people interested in learning how to use some of the programs you plan to include in UbuntuStudio
<joejaxx> that has been discussed but only lightly
<joejaxx> we will probably be discussing more about that in the future within the team
<joejaxx> next question?
<Belutz> <fiddler59> Question: Something that is missing in most Multimedia dist is a complete alsa firmware install.....I always have to compile from source to get my Echo layla up and running....Will Ubuntustudio have a complete alsa firmware installed ??
<tsmithe> illu45, documentation (as that is basically what that amounts to) is an awful lot of work :)
<joejaxx> no not by default
<joejaxx> but we are planning to have it in our repository
<Belutz> <popey> QUESTION: Will you also be able to just apt-get the meta package and you're done? like you can switch from ubuntu to kubuntu by getting kubuntu-desktop?
<joejaxx> yes
<joejaxx> you will be able to apt-get install ubunstudio-desktop
<Belutz> <sletz> QUESION: any plan to package jackdmp (jack for multi-core machine) at some point?
<joejaxx> but that will only have desktop
<joejaxx> you will also have to choose which paths you wany
<joejaxx> want*
<joejaxx> and apt-get install accordingly
<joejaxx> ie ubuntustudio-audio ubuntustudio-graphics ubuntunstudio-video etc
<joejaxx> sletz: we have not actually discussed that before
<joejaxx> but we can definitely look into discussing it for the gutsy release
<joejaxx> next question we have 2 minutes left :P
* tsmithe thinks we'd need some kind of multicore detection infrastructure. and easy way would be to look in /proc, but i'm sure hal provides this too
<Belutz> <bobmachine111> A little off subject. But do any of the included packages use vst plug ins (Windows cross-over office ish type question)?
<joejaxx> btw if your question is not asnwered here i will be in #ubuntustudio to continue this after our time if up
<joejaxx> bobmachine111: no they do not
<Belutz> <octoberdan> QUESTION: Can you chose more then one path?
<joejaxx> bobmachine111: the license of the vst-sdk prevents us from distributing it
<joejaxx> octoberdan: yes you can
<Belutz> <fiddler59> Question: Will you have Ardour rc2 or wait for Ardour2 final ??
<joejaxx> octoberdan: you can choose any combination
<joejaxx> fiddler59: we have Ardour rc2 in our repository now
<joejaxx> if Aroud 2 is released between this release
<joejaxx> and the disc reroll we will probably include it
<joejaxx> ardour2*
<joejaxx> alright our time if up
<Belutz> joejaxx, care for 1 other question?
* tsmithe would like to point out that we'll also be hosting alsa-firmwares in the repository
<joejaxx> Thank you for coming by :) i will be in #ubuntustudio for anymore questions
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o elkbuntu]  by ChanServ
<joejaxx> Belutz: well i guess it is up to the next person in line
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o joejaxx]  by joejaxx
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o tsmithe]  by tsmithe
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-classroom:elkbuntu] : "Welcome to the Ubuntu Open Week || SCHEDULE: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek - SCHEDULE CHANGES, PLEASE SEE THE TIMETABLE || RULES: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules Please respect them || LOGS: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs || Ask questions and chat in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, "QUESTION: <insert question here> | CURRENT SESSION: LoCo Teams - Melissa Draper
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o Belutz]  by ChanServ
<elkbuntu> Mmmkay. lets do this, shall we.
<elkbuntu> Hello everyone! Welcome to the LoCo Teams introduction session.
<elkbuntu> My name is Melissa Draper, and I am the LoCo Team Contact for the Ubuntu Australian LoCo Team. I am also one of the project leads for the LoCo Project. I have a wiki page at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MelissaDraper that introduces me in more detail.
<elkbuntu> Over the course of this session, we will be covering a number of aspects of LoCo Teams, such as:
<elkbuntu> * What are LoCo Teams?
<elkbuntu> * How can I find my LoCo Team?
<elkbuntu> * What can I do if I cannot find a LoCo Team for me?
<elkbuntu> * How can I get involved?
<elkbuntu> * What cool things can LoCo Teams do?
<elkbuntu> * Who leads the teams?
<elkbuntu> * Approved teams vs New teams
<elkbuntu> First off, "What are LoCo Teams?"
<elkbuntu> LoCo is short for Local Community, which is fairly self explanatory. LoCo Teams are hence Local Community Teams. For example, the LoCo Team I am contact for is Ubuntu-Au, and we are based in Australia.
<elkbuntu> The teams are run by the people, for the people. They are *not* run by Canonical, however Canonical is highly supportive of them and will provide assistance. We will cover the assistance offered later.
<elkbuntu> Mostly, one LoCo is sufficient for a country, but some countries have chapters for states or regions due to the size of the country and/or population. We do prefer there to be a single national encompassing Team however, for communication sake.
<elkbuntu> This means that they are teams based around certain locations that act as, among other things, contact points for people wanting to get involved in Ubuntu and the rest of the *buntu family of projects. They are a great stepping stone to the worldwide community.
<elkbuntu> They are also excellent points of local advocacy, support (especially if they're based in non-english speaking areas) and all things of that manner.
<elkbuntu> As such, due to the localised nature of these teams, they are also an excellent way to find someone else near you, that uses Ubuntu, and hence 'gets it'. We all know it can be quite lonely as the only person you know who uses Linux, let alone Ubuntu.
<elkbuntu> Closely related to LoCo Teams are Language teams. These are often a group of LoCos that speak the same language and their primary focus is support in that language. Some people consider these to be LoCos in themselves, as they generally come under the LoCo umbrella. There are differing opinions of this, however.
<elkbuntu> One aspect of LoCo Teams that we find is most important, is that they enable and encourage people to interact with other Ubuntu users that are actually near them, as opposed to the other side of the world.
<elkbuntu> A single person with ideas is nothing compared to a dozen equally imaginative people :)
<elkbuntu> To find your nearest LoCo Team, please take a look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoTeamList and find a team that covers your area.
<elkbuntu> If you cannot find a team, or you do and it is unfortunately inactive, the best thing you can do is start a new team, or revive the inactive one. You do not need to know much about Linux or Ubuntu to do this, just how to be a part of a group.
<elkbuntu> I will not go into the specifics of starting teams here today, but tomorrow at 19:00 UTC, Rich Johnson is running a session called "Creating a LoCo Team" which is perfect for anyone in this situation.
<elkbuntu> oops... that's supposed to read today 2 hours ago :
<elkbuntu> so yeah, discard that, and read logs instead
<elkbuntu> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/openweekfeisty/lococreate <-- this log
<elkbuntu> Meanwhile, for those of you who have found an appropriate team, the easiest way to get involved is simply to participate.
<elkbuntu> Join the IRC channel, post on the forum, etc. Once you get your foot in the door and make an effort, the rest usually writes itself. Many teams openly welcome any assistance with providing support, translating, and advocacy.
<elkbuntu> Showing you care and putting a little bit of effort in goes a long long way to building a bond, and you will be appreciated.
<elkbuntu> LoCo Teams are effectively the backbone of the Ubuntu Community. As the local community representation, they possess great power in building awareness and user numbers.
<elkbuntu> For many places that speak languages other than english, providing support in local language, and translating are invaluable, as we all know, not everyone has perfect grasp of the English language (heck, this even includes supposedly native English speakers ;) )
<elkbuntu> The more languages Ubuntu can be available in, or that people can get support in, the better chance it has to succeed.
<elkbuntu> However, advocacy, I believe, is the strongest aspect of a LoCo. Who else is in a better position to reach out to an area, than a group that is already in that area.
<elkbuntu> There's a number of ways LoCos can help advocate. Simply spreading the word is a great start, but there's lots of group activities that can be really powerful when done well.
<elkbuntu> Putting posters up on community notice boards (with permission of course!), running stalls/booths at fairs and expos, writing to local media outlets, petitioning your local and national government and many more things, all help.
<elkbuntu> There is an extensive wiki section at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoTeamKnowledgeBase that documents alot of things that people have tried, with information about what worked well and what to avoid, along with some really cool tips.
<elkbuntu> So how does a team get together, functioning and motivated to do things such as this? Well, that is up to each individual team. Each team has a person who fills the role called "Team Contact".
<elkbuntu> These people are responsible for being the communication point for their teams, in this situation, their LoCo. This person not only communicates with other teams and the Ubuntu community at large (Speaking/writing English is a prerequisite for this), but often (but not always) acts as a leader figure.
<elkbuntu> Some teams have multiple contacts, or a panel of leaders, but the general purpose is the same. It is a matter of how this works best for your particular team.
<elkbuntu> Once a team is established, they can go for "Approved" status, which means they more or less become and official team in the project.
<elkbuntu> Approved teams get special support in terms of a CD allocation with each release, hosting for team websites, and other random goodies.
<elkbuntu> New and Unofficial teams also get help to get them started. They are entitled to a mailing list and an IRC channel under the Ubuntu namespace on this Freenode network. If they need, they are also entitled to request a subforum at Ubuntuforums.org
<elkbuntu> I'll now take questions, so get asking in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<elkbuntu> <chuckf> QUESTION: Is there some generic 'we're not responsable for data loss' form for when locos do install fests?
<elkbuntu> Not that I am aware of.
<elkbuntu> This would be a hard thing to achieve, since there's differing legislation across the globe, and some countries may not honor such statements
<elkbuntu> it might be worth contacting the canonical legal team about this, however i havent got the contact info for themn offhand
<elkbuntu> <chuckf> QUESTION: How soon after establishing the loco should we go for approved status?
<elkbuntu> the issue is not time, but instead achievement
<elkbuntu> we recommend at least 3 events, such as installfests, advocacy days (SoftwareFreedomDay for example) and fair/conference representations
<elkbuntu> but also, the basic structures of communication need to be in place and working, and the team shouldnt be in a state of civil unrest
<elkbuntu> <chuckf> QUESTION: What is the current over/under on getting mailing lists created in less than six months?
<elkbuntu> emailing rt@admin.canonical.com
<elkbuntu> this is one of the issues however that I will be harrassing people about next week at the Developer Summit :)
<elkbuntu> <chuckf> QUESTION: This is US centeric, but how do I get a maryland.ubuntu-us.org address for the Loco?
<elkbuntu> i'm not entirely certain who has authority for that domain, but i suggest harrassing richard (nixternal)
<elkbuntu> at worst, he'd know who controls it
<elkbuntu> if he doesnt, i'll tease him until he finds out
<elkbuntu> <chuckf> QUESTION: Where can we go to get IRC meeting schedules for Loco topics?
<elkbuntu> meetings go on the fridge, such as this: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/node/913
<elkbuntu> that page points us to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoTeamMeeting
<elkbuntu> for that meeting, our main focus will be discussing who i harrass about what next week, and those topics cover what is set as the agenda anyway
<elkbuntu> <chuckf> QUESTION: How do you go about estimating the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow?
<elkbuntu> Definately wikipedia :
<elkbuntu> <popey> QUESTION: do you think loco teams should have a formal structure? Voting rights etc?
<elkbuntu> I dont think there should be any forced structure imposed on a team. Some teams, due to their culture, whatever, need to be freeform, whilst others for the same reason, prefer or need formal structure.
<elkbuntu> It's completely a matter of 'what works for you'
<elkbuntu> <chuckf> QUESTION: How do we deal with LUGS in the area if they feel we're trying to replace them, despite our efforts to convince them otherwise?
<elkbuntu> That is one of the biggest concerns we have with city-based locos, or city-based loco chapters, rather than state-based.
<elkbuntu> Some lugs will see distro-specific teams as a threat if those teams have more momentum
<elkbuntu> lugs that inherit a huge percentage of Ubuntu users, can often be put on the backfoot, and that old guy who's used slackware since the first floppy of it, will of course feel intimidated and/or jealous
<elkbuntu> it comes with the territory of being popular, no matter who you are
<elkbuntu> <rafael_carreras> how about LoCos not related to a single country but to a language or culture, have they any change to get aproved?
<elkbuntu> There is a kurdish team. I cannot recall it's exact status. there's also a regional team in china that iirc is based culturally rather than otherwise, but i cant recall that for sure either
<elkbuntu> language teams can be tricky, especially for a language such as spanish that covers a whole continent, as well as spain and random other countries
<elkbuntu> we need to take language teams on a case-by case basis, but for spain and france even (with canada and african countries speaking it) it is important to ensure those countries do not get overshadowed by the massive international populations for their languages
<elkbuntu> <chuckf> QUESTION: When dealing with organizations that have a need for a computer room (for instance) is it fair to recommend a specialized distro (such as IPCOP) for specific purposes?
<elkbuntu> chuckf, it's my opinion, and i say this honestly, that it is more important to make sure the distro someone use *does what they need*
<elkbuntu> otherwise it is pointless.
<elkbuntu> while we would prefer that distro to be Ubuntu, i'd rather they be happy with something else than unhappy with ubuntu.
<elkbuntu> <richb> QUESTION: Are any of the LoCo groups involved with professional bodies at all (Over here in the UK we have The British Computing Society for example)?
<elkbuntu> I think there will naturally be representation in those organisations. It's important to not force yourself onto a group, as it can quite easily cause problems such as rivalry between locos and lug in terms of those groups
<elkbuntu> <chuckf> QUESTION: What do you think of your entry in http://planet.lugradio.org/facts
<elkbuntu> i intend to harrass, tease and mercilessly annoy mr pope for the duration of UDS
<elkbuntu> richb> elkbuntu: I was more thinking of promotion of Ubuntu-for example the BCS authors reports for the government on IT systems.
<elkbuntu> richb, approach, petition etc them by all means. but keep within 'reasonable force'
<elkbuntu> <samgee_> QUESTION: Is a LoCo the right place for me if I seem like a nice guy online, but am an annoying bastard in real life?
<elkbuntu> probably. but if you know you're an annoying bastard real life, maybe that's a personality trait you need to work on. you'll probably find yourself happier
<elkbuntu> online has a way of bringing out people's real selves, where they're not as afraid etc. you have the nice guy in you already, it's not a figment of the internet
<elkbuntu> locos, especially those in largish countries, very rarely meet, and nobody is obliged to attend functions
<elkbuntu> <methhhp_> QUESTION: im in a region of Mexico where people speak many regional languages, not listed in the Ubuntu translations, can we create a Loco team and translate to that languages?
<elkbuntu> methhhp_, i'd rather suggest create subteams in the existing loco to work on translating
<elkbuntu> as a whole, one big mexico loco is going to be much much stronger than lots of tiny 2 or 3 person locos
<elkbuntu> but by all means, if you know non-existant languages, and your team has speakers of these languages, get going with a translation
<elkbuntu> <samgee_> QUESTION: Can virtual worlds like SecondLife also have LoCos?
<elkbuntu> In a figurative sense, sure. However they're not likely to get cds, hosting or even mailing list support
<elkbuntu> guilds, teams, unions, whatever your virtual world has, by all means make an ubuntu one
<elkbuntu> Well, it seems that's all for the questions. If you have any further, we have an irc channel over at #ubuntu-locoteams and there's a mailing list mentioned in the /topic of that channel
<elkbuntu> On behalf of the Ubuntu community, I'd like to thank you all for attending this Open Week. :)
<elkbuntu> I think we've all learned a lot of cool new information
<elkbuntu> Keep an eye out on this space, as I believe these weeks are going to become regular occurrances, probably coincidental with every release :)
<elkbuntu> Again, thankyou all :)
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-m]  by elkbuntu
<MikeDK> no thank you:-)
<elkbuntu> :)
<ditsch> so, open week is over finally :( thx to everyone who held a session :)
<MikeDK> yep lots of grats from DK
<MikeDK> that's Denmark :-)
<ditsch> btw, where's jono to hug him :P
<MikeDK> lol
<elkbuntu> ditsch, I would put money on either out playing metal, or at a bar consuming alcohol
<ditsch> mmh, most likely
#ubuntu-classroom 2007-04-29
<PriceChild> ditsch, "finally"? :O
<MikeDK> well night everyone getting late here in Denmark 00:10 am
<ditsch> costs me a lot of sleepless nights ;)
* MikeDK Happy Ubuntu everyone :-P
<ditsch> ok, i am out. see you on the next open week (perhaps a bit earlier) :D
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o apokryphos]  by ChanServ
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-classroom:apokryphos] : Ubuntu Open Week is now over; Information and Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-ooo elkbuntu nixternal PriceChild]  by apokryphos
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o apokryphos]  by apokryphos
<harrisony> * You have been kicked from #ubuntu-classroom-chat by apokryphos- (Ubuntu Open Week is now over, see you next time!) :( WAH!!!!
<harrisony> Whens the next open week
<apokryphos> after Gutsy, most likely
<harrisony> ahh
* franhp2 siau
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o Hobbsee]  by ChanServ
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+b *!*@63-224-188-119.desm.qwest.net]  by Hobbsee
* Windows2000XPVIS was kicked off #ubuntu-classroom by Hobbsee (Hobbsee)
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-classroom.log
<Tm_T> apokryphos: <3
<chux> hi
<chux> somebody can helpme?
<harrisony> !ask | chux
<ubotu> chux: Don't ask to ask a question. Just ask your question :)
<harrisony> !support | chux
<ubotu> chux: support is The official ubuntu support channel is #ubuntu. Also see http://ubuntu.com/support and http://ubuntuforums.org
<chux> ok
<chux> ive desinstall apahche2
<chux> now when i try to install it
<chux> with apt-get
<chux> there no /etc/init.d/apache2
<chux> ... then i cant start apache
<harrisony> !support
<ubotu> support is The official ubuntu support channel is #ubuntu. Also see http://ubuntu.com/support and http://ubuntuforums.org
<harrisony> -classroom is for teaching sessions
<chux> ok sorry
<RoBoot> dvzllek RoBoot !
<RoBoot> Hy! I m Hungary
<RoBoot> Most magamba beszljek?
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [+o LjL]  by ChanServ
* mode/#ubuntu-classroom [-o LjL]  by LjL
#ubuntu-classroom 2008-04-21
<PingJocky> everyone ready for a good laugh?
<PingJocky> http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20080421091129596
#ubuntu-classroom 2008-04-23
<nerdsquad3210> any pedophiles in here ?
#ubuntu-classroom 2008-04-24
<JacksonVanBuren> can anybody help out a first-time Linux user?
<nalioth> JacksonVanBuren: perhaps in ##linux or #ubuntu
<JacksonVanBuren> thanks
<nalioth> this channel has a /topic
<JacksonVanBuren> (thought classroom was a place to ask Q's)
<JacksonVanBuren> oh... i see* "
#ubuntu-classroom 2008-04-26
<mypapit> :(
#ubuntu-classroom 2008-04-27
<ryanakca> hmmm... anybody know if there are still meetings for Classroom?
<arvind_khadri> hi kadambi
<kadambi> arvind_khadri: Hi
<kadambi> arvind_khadri: So wasup ??
<arvind_khadri> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/ ok here is the link of tomorrow's class
<kadambi> arvind_khadri: Yeah, I saw
<arvind_khadri> its really going to be good
<arvind_khadri> and a chance to learn a lot
<arvind_khadri> kadambi, so just wanted to inform her and teach her to use xchat
<arvind_khadri> kadambi, so that she gets there and learns
<kadambi> hi
<kadambi> sridevi here
<kadambi> tell me now
<arvind_khadri> kadambi, use your own nick to chat
<sridevi> hmmmm
<sridevi> ok
<arvind_khadri> hmm just login here tomorrow by 8 pm ist
<arvind_khadri> so that you learn some stuff
<arvind_khadri> once a lifetime opportunity
<sridevi> ok
<sridevi> but how to login here
<arvind_khadri> ask him
<arvind_khadri> he can tell you better
<sridevi> arvind_khadri: could you please shift to private chat ??
<arvind_khadri> sridevi, you need to be a registered user for that
<arvind_khadri> !register | sridevi
<ubotu> sridevi: By default, only registered users can send private messages - Information about registering your nickname: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#userregistration - Type Â« /nick <nickname> Â» to select your nickname.
#ubuntu-classroom 2009-04-20
<eddie1>  oky weet enige iemand hoe om i dokument na jou pc te scan
<AnAnt> Hello, the logs of classroom are clipped
<AnAnt> for example, this log: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Packaging/Training/Logs/2009-04-16
<alciono> quit
<AnAnt> add a /
<alciono> thanks
<LaserJock> is there a special channel for this "Education Focus Group"?
<tony__> Hello
#ubuntu-classroom 2009-04-21
<sylvio> hi, i'd like to see the source of ubuntu and i don't know where and how, i'm student of computer science and i'd like to know depeer this OS
<sylvio> someone can help me?
<kklimonda> sylvio: you can download sources of every ubuntu package using command ``apt-get source <package>''
<kklimonda> as long as you have deb-src entries in sources.list
<sylvio> OK but where can I know the names of the packages?
<kklimonda> sylvio: there are many ways - for example package's name is in Package column of synaptic. You can also check http://packages.ubuntu.com/
<sylvio> thanks very much! I'm newbie in linux and I don't know nothing yet. I will study more about this OS and the community. You were very patience thanks :)
<tommychurch> hi
<tommychurch> <-----seeking life in this room
<CyberScript32> oia galera estou pensando em migrar p unbutu
<CyberScript32> e queria alguma informÃ§Ã£o dele
<CyberScript32> se posivel
#ubuntu-classroom 2009-04-22
<Vincent_Vega> salve a tutti
<Vincent_Vega> salve boys
<SherokiX> buenas noches compaÃ±eros
<SherokiX> hi
<jpds> SherokiX: Hola.
<TommyCorn> how do i stop pidgin from telling me every time someone enters or leaves the chat room?
<TommyCorn> Â¿cÃ³mo paro pidgin de decirme que alguien entra en o que sale cada vez de la sala de chat?
<jpds> !es
<ubot2`> En la mayorÃ­a de canales Ubuntu se comunica en inglÃ©s. Para ayuda en EspaÃ±ol, por favor entre en los canales #ubuntu-es o #kubuntu-es.
<TommyCorn> how do i stop pidgin from telling me every time someone enters or leaves the chat room?
<pleia2> TommyCorn: you'll find more help in #ubuntu or #ubuntu-es, this channel is for classes :)
#ubuntu-classroom 2009-04-23
<dtchen> for those of you idling for the piuparts/vm session, i've placed some notes at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Packaging/Training/Logs/2009-04-23
<dtchen> it's a good idea to go ahead and configure pbuilder, piuparts, and your vm
* pleia2 changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Ubuntu Classroom || https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-classroom | Upcoming: 23 Apr @ 00:00 UTC Package testing: piuparts and VMs | Run 'date -u' in a terminal to find out the UTC time
<dtchen> all right folks, it being 00:00 utc and such, let's roll on through. i hear there's a release being prepared. :-)
<nhandler> :)
<dtchen> again, this packaging session will introduce piuparts for package testing, and we'll mention how to use a VM to further test functionality
<dtchen> there are some notes (and corrections!) at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Packaging/Training/Logs/2009-04-23, so please take look and get your prerequisites all shiny
<kklimonda> damn, I've managed to stay awake for this session.. any cookies for me? ;}
<dtchen> cough, take a* look
<dtchen> any questions before we dive in?
<kklimonda> Why so late? ;)
<dtchen> (no idea! the schedule rotation deems it so)
<dtchen> ok, and with that resounding silence, let's get started.
<kklimonda> dtchen: wait - how to configure piuparts?
<kklimonda> do i even have to?
<eythian> hopefully this VM gets installed before you're too far through.
<kklimonda> :)
<dtchen> piuparts(8) is a tool for providing a somewhat systematic method for testing whether a binary package can be installed and removed, and/or any of the intermediate upgrade steps
<Pollywog> we are installing a vm?
<dtchen> kklimonda: as long as you have piuparts installed, that will suffice
<eythian> Pollywog: My desktop is intrepid
<Pollywog> ic
<dtchen> eythian: / Pollywog: you don't necessarily *need* a VM, but it's quite useful for actual usage testing
<dtchen> (ok, back to topic)
<dtchen> some (many?) people are familiar with building binary packages from source packages on their local systems
<dtchen> pbuilder is but one such utility - granted, it's a very nice utility
<dtchen> briefly, one would do something akin to: # pbuilder build foo.dsc
<dtchen> if everything "goes well", one ends up with ../*.deb (and the other parts of the source package)
<dtchen> people often then use dpkg -i (or gdebi or ...) to install ../*.deb
<dtchen> however, pbuilder has one fairly glaring omission in the maintenance sense: it doesn't actually test-install/remove/etc. the generated binary packages
<kklimonda> dtchen: is it possible to install packages in pbuilder chroot without too much work?
<nhandler> Yes kklimonda
<dtchen> kklimonda: absolutely, and i'll touch on that briefly, too, with something called pbuilder hooks
<dtchen> since kklimonda provided such a nice segue...
<dtchen> pbuilder has an extension mechanism known as hooks. take a look in /usr/share/doc/pbuilder/examples/
<dtchen> now, piuparts and pbuilder hooks for executing an install/upgrade/removal test are nominally similar
<dtchen> where piuparts really differs is the ability to test install/upgrade/removal for an entire archive
<dtchen> that's a bit much for pbuilder (although it's certainly possible with some additional scripting)
<dtchen> (so, next time you encounter liw online, give him a virtual beer)
<dtchen> does anyone have any questions regarding what piuparts is used for?
<kklimonda> no
<dtchen> ok, now let's look at the functional testing of binary packages
<dtchen> piuparts and pbuilder (with hooks) are useful for fairly basic testing, but they don't actually test whether your pbuilt/sbuilt package actually starts, throws pretty screen bling up, crackles/hisses/pops, etc.
<dtchen> (err, oops, was that pulseaudio?)
<kklimonda> :)
<dtchen> to get a sense of whether your package works, you really should use a VM. at the very least, you can install in the pbuilder chroot and invoke the program(s).
<dtchen> now that i've set the stage, let's look at the two munged source packages i've placed at http://kernel.ubuntu.com/~dtchen/package-training-2009.04.23/
<dtchen> the first is oss-compat, and we'll use that to demonstrate piuparts
<nhandler> Should we download the packages?
<dtchen> yes, we should have the munged source packages downloaded
<kklimonda> done
<dtchen> for people who preferred `apt-get source oss-compat', i'll pastebin the debdiff
<dtchen> (well, the relevant portion)
<nhandler> For everyone else, you can use dget to download the source package
<dtchen> http://paste.ubuntu.com/156227/
<dtchen> so the basic idea here is that as of jaunty, module-init-tools requires files to have the ".conf" suffix/extension
<dtchen> this modification is a fairly straightforward one: we look at the source package and modify debian/postinst
<dtchen> (then adjust debian/control, add/modify the changelog entry, etc.)
<dtchen> now, when that package is pbuilt using pbuilder [without hooks], the deb will be generated correctly
<dtchen> this case is an excellent illustration of where the install pbuilder hook and piuparts shine
<dtchen> because the actual error lies in the postinst, pbuilder [without hooks] won't throw any errors
<dtchen> so let's actually use piuparts ;-)
<dtchen> the syntax is fairly basic:
<dtchen> sudo piuparts foo.deb
<dtchen> on my system, because i use apt-cacher-ng, the syntax is bit more convoluted:
<dtchen> sudo piuparts -m "http://localhost:3142/ubuntu" --skip-minimize -- foo.deb
<kklimonda> dtchen: i get " E: Couldn't find package debfoster"
<kklimonda> I've added --skip-minimize and it worked
<dtchen> if you're using jaunty, you'll probably need the --skip-minimize
<dtchen> now, piuparts will create a minimal chroot if you use the above command, but most of you likely have a pbuilder base.tgz (or jaunty.tgz or whatnot) already
<dtchen> you can instruct piuparts to use the existing pbuilder base.tgz by passing -p
<dtchen> (so, as piuparts runs...)
<kklimonda> dtchen: -p ? not -b ?
<dtchen> kklimonda: -b is more flexible
<kklimonda> i see - it's a shortcut
<kklimonda> :)
<kklimonda> dtchen: but still when i use my pbuilder base.tgz I get "E: Couldn't find package debfoster" error
<dtchen> kklimonda: are you using jaunty's piuparts?
<kklimonda> dtchen: yes
<kklimonda> 0.35ubuntu1
<dtchen> let's troubleshoot that offline
<Pollywog> so piuparts is different for different releases?
<juanje1> kklimonda: adding --keep-sources-list option probably it works
<kklimonda> dtchen: appending --skip-minimize (as adviced in bug #317721) helps
<kklimonda> oh, no ubottu here :)
<dtchen> Pollywog: ideally, no - however, there is a difference between the Debian and Ubuntu components and priorities
<kklimonda> juanje1: yes - it also worked
<dtchen> the Ubuntu modification in jaunty helps work around it, but it's imperfect)(
<dtchen> (hmm, Home key fail)
<asomething> dtchen: -b is used to specify a specific base tarball, right? I've got pbuilder set up for jaunty, intrepid, and sid
<dtchen> asomething: correct
<dtchen> now, piuparts's output is fairly verbose
<dtchen> the parts we're interested in lie toward the end of the output
<dtchen> namely, PASS/FAIL/ERROR
<dtchen> note the:
<dtchen> ERROR: Broken symlinks:
<dtchen>   /etc/modprobe.d/oss-compat.conf -> /lib/oss-compat/linu
<dtchen> (that's deftly illustrated at http://paste.ubuntu.com/156227/)
<dtchen> the process of correcting the error as a maintainer is fairly intuitive
<dtchen> we readd the omitted character, regenerate the source package, rebuild it, rerun piuparts on it. (rinse, lather, repeat)
<dtchen> any questions thus far?
<dtchen> ok, so we've quickly demonstrated how piuparts can assist in catching maintainer script errors
<dtchen> now, as maintainers/developers, we're supposed to be testing all our changes
<dtchen> due to whatever excuses, many of us don't ;-)
<dtchen> functional testing, however, is quite important
<dtchen> really, changes must be tested in a VM for both correctness and efficiency
<dtchen> the second example munged source package in my kernel.ubuntu.com space is pavucontrol
<dtchen> the change that actually makes jaunty's pavucontrol binary package usable is introduced in debian/patches/0002-Handle-noninitialised-data.patch
<dtchen> several iterations of that patch were generated before i discovered that upstream's fix wasn't entirely applicable to our source package
<dtchen> i.e., sometimes it's not as straightforward as "just applying upstream fixes"
<dtchen> briefly, jaunty ships with an older pulseaudio source package with many, many backported alsa fixes
<dtchen> these backported fixes differ from the current upstream source package, and therefore there are several assumptions in upstream's pavucontrol fix that aren't applicable to Ubuntu
<kklimonda> mhm
<kklimonda> so we should use "test before release" as our mantra ? :)
<dtchen> for our purposes, however, we're only going to illustrate that using a VM to test changes is the most efficient manner of demonstrating that a bug was fixed
<dtchen> (that's bug 359274)
<dtchen> if one were to take my munged source package, it is functionally equivalent to jaunty's superceded 0.9.7-1ubuntu1
<dtchen> that version crashes as soon as a user attempts to mute System Sounds in the Playback tab
<dtchen> thus, testing in a VM (or a chroot or whatnot) is the simplest way to demonstrate the efficacy of a fix
<dtchen> absolutely
<dtchen> since many people don't have VMs configured, i won't insist that everyone duplicate the crash right this moment, but run through it on your own time, and remember that development really needs this constant testing
<dtchen> anecdote: if i had consistently used piuparts on my alsa-* and pulseaudio* source uploads for jaunty, i probably would have eliminated a half-dozen uploads
<dtchen> so, what do we take away from this session? using piuparts is good. testing in a vm after using piuparts is good.
<dtchen> i'll open it up for general questions now.
<Pollywog> are there some Ubuntu-specific tutorials?
<Pollywog> for piuparts
<dtchen> no, but feel free to pitch in :-)
<dtchen> (this session was just an intro to piuparts)
<kklimonda> dtchen: i have a minor problem with pbuilder but it's unrelated to this class.
<dtchen> kklimonda: right, we can discuss that offline in -motu after this session
<kklimonda> ok
<dtchen> Pollywog: do you have specific questions on using piuparts in a particular context?
<kklimonda> dtchen: thanks for piuparts introduction - i was going to read about it some time ago and then forgot how it's called :)
<nhandler> dtchen: Is there a hook for pbuilder to have it run the deb through piuparts?
<Pollywog> no, I am really confused because I have not used piuparts
<dtchen> nhandler: no, but there's some duplication in /usr/share/doc/pbuilder/examples/B91dpkg-i
<Pollywog> I have played with pbuilder a few times
<Pollywog> but in Debian
<dtchen> Pollywog: ok. very briefly, one uses pbuilder to generate a set of binary package(s) from a source package
<dtchen> Pollywog: however, pbuilder by default does not actually test the installation/upgrade/removal of said generated binary package(s)
<dtchen> Pollywog: it can be particularly troublesome if errors lie in the maintainer scripts
<dtchen> (since we only encounter those at package install/upgrade/removal)
<dtchen> Pollywog: try this: sudo piuparts --skip-minimize hello
<dtchen> juanje1: i have not tried using jaunty's piuparts on hardy, so i don't know offhand if it's feasible
<dtchen> juanje1: one thing to be aware of is the python2.6 transition
<dtchen> Pollywog: err, i think i omitted an -a
<Pollywog> I will need to get the sources for hello
<Pollywog> oh something happened
<dtchen> Pollywog: actually, you don't have to retrieve the sources
<Pollywog> yes I see that now
<dtchen> Pollywog: -a instructs piuparts to retrieve from the repository using apt-get
<Pollywog> I added the -a
<dtchen> juanje1: i generally filter the output in some other process
<dtchen> juanje1: the verboseness of piuparts can be cumbersome
<Pollywog> is there a way to adjust the verbosity?
<dtchen> Pollywog: not quite
<Pollywog> k
<dtchen> any other questions before we wrap up?
<Pollywog> none here
<Pollywog> dtchen: thanks for the class
<dtchen> no prob, thanks all!
<juanje1> dtchen: yep, thanks :-)
<asomething> dtchen: thanks!
<dtchen> so, next week is dholbach with "Getting Started with Ubuntu Development"
<dtchen> it will take place on 30 April 2009, 06:00 UTC
<dtchen> hope to see you here!
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Ubuntu Classroom || https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-classroom | Upcoming: 24 Apr 2009 @ 00:00 UTC: SSH; Ubuntu Open Week! Mon 27 April - Fri 1 May https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | Run 'date -u' in a terminal to find out the UTC time
<HymnToLife> guess I'll do a Photoshop break in an hour
<macman> this chan has always been here ?
<HymnToLife> yes
<HymnToLife> Thu 23 Apr 2009 22:07:27 UTC
<HymnToLife> bodhi_zazen: surely you mean in TWO hours ;)
<kklimonda> what is this class going to be about?
<HymnToLife> /topic
<kklimonda> SSH?
<bodhi_zazen> ssh
<bodhi_zazen> two hours, lol
<bodhi_zazen> ah, yes :)
<bodhi_zazen> sorry
<kklimonda> what exactly? ssh basics - rsa keys etc. ?
<bodhi_zazen> kklimonda: what ever people like
<bodhi_zazen> I would like these sessions to be Q&A more then lectures
<bodhi_zazen> and I have a shared ssh session set up so can demo commands in a shared session
<kklimonda> mhm
<bodhi_zazen> >:)
<bodhi_zazen> http://paste.ubuntu.com/156798/
<bodhi_zazen> you will not be able to log in as of yet though
<HymnToLife> >O
<HymnToLife> a lecture on SSH would be easy
<HymnToLife> 1. Get "SSH: the definitive guite" from O'REilly
<HymnToLife> 2. Read it
<HymnToLife> 3. ???
<HymnToLife> 4. PROFIT!
<cprofitt> what?
<HymnToLife> lol
<HymnToLife> you, sir, just won an internets
<HymnToLife> :<
#ubuntu-classroom 2009-04-24
<rapha> What about a Ubuntu Classroom lecture on how to package software for Ubuntu?
<HymnToLife> there's been a lot of them already IIRC
<bodhi_zazen> 10 min or so ..
<bodhi_zazen> I will be demo on a shared session :)
<bodhi_zazen> to log on : http://paste.ubuntu.com/156798/
<bodhi_zazen> if we can get people connected to the server in advance - woot
<bodhi_zazen> If people need help connecting , ask
<bodhi_zazen> If you know how to connect, please help in a /msg ;)
<bodhi_zazen> don't all connect all at once now :)
<bodhi_zazen> welcmoe ibuclaw , thanks for coming ;)
<bodhi_zazen> ibuclaw: do you know how to use my shared ssh session ?
<WastePotato> Hallo.
<bodhi_zazen> 'lo WastePotato , thank you for coming as well
<bodhi_zazen> do you recall how to connect to my ssh session ?
<WastePotato> Hey bodhi_zazen.
<WastePotato> I still have your key, but I don't remember the command.
<bodhi_zazen> http://paste.ubuntu.com/156798/
<bodhi_zazen> 2 min or so ;)
<bodhi_zazen> who is here for the session ?
<bodhi_zazen> I am hoping to have a more interactive session, as they are more fun ;)
<WastePotato> Present.
<WastePotato> bodhi_zazen... is that.. screen?
<bodhi_zazen> yes WastePotato ;)
<bodhi_zazen> screen FTW
<WastePotato> Dang. o:
<bodhi_zazen> ?
<WastePotato> Looks nice. :D
<bodhi_zazen> >:)
<HymnToLife> bodhi_zazen: can we run commands in your SSH session?
<WastePotato> Lawl no.
<HymnToLife> :(
<bodhi_zazen> no, but if you ask I will run them for you ;)
<WastePotato> It's read only. |:
<bodhi_zazen> If too many people enter stuff at the same time it gets confusing
<bodhi_zazen> Shall we start ?
<bodhi_zazen> ssh is one of my favorite topics :)
<bodhi_zazen> Brief into to ssh ?
<WastePotato> SSH \o/
<bodhi_zazen> ssh == Secure SHell
<bodhi_zazen> it allows one to log into a server and execute commands
<bodhi_zazen> one can forward X applications, an entire desktop, ports, sockets, etc
<bodhi_zazen> I would like to cover some of the basics today ;)
<WastePotato> Cool. :)
<bodhi_zazen> the computer you log into will be called "the server" today
<bodhi_zazen> You first need to install ssh onto the server
<ibuclaw> bodhi_zazen, I know vaguely how to use it...
<bodhi_zazen> apt-get install ssh-server
<HymnToLife> openssh-server*
<HymnToLife> (or does ssh-server work too?)
<WastePotato> ?
<bodhi_zazen> thanks HymnToLife , lol
<WastePotato> Oh.
<bodhi_zazen> you then ssh user@server
<bodhi_zazen> if you are on *unix , and have the same account name on clinet and server, you can ssh server
<bodhi_zazen> to execute a command on the server
<bodhi_zazen> ssh server command
<HymnToLife> not only on *nix :o
<HymnToLife> it works on Windows too
<bodhi_zazen> does it work on Windows ?
<bodhi_zazen> nice
<WastePotato> PuTTy?
<bodhi_zazen> yes, use putty on windows
<HymnToLife> WastePotato: you can also install OpenSSH on Windows
<bodhi_zazen> although if you like putty you can install it on Linux as well
<HymnToLife> putty is a bit more convenient though
<WastePotato> I see...
<bodhi_zazen> putty is nice in that it stores servers and idents :)
<WastePotato> Putty on Linux as well? Nice.
<bodhi_zazen> OK, want to see a demo of ssh on my session ?
<WastePotato> Yes!
<bodhi_zazen> or shall we move on
<bodhi_zazen> kk ..
<WastePotato> \o/
<bodhi_zazen> see how the first time we connect to the server, we are asked to accept the server key ?
<bodhi_zazen> the key is stored in ~/.ssh/known_hosts
<bodhi_zazen> now we will not be asked to accept the key , watch
<bodhi_zazen> see ?
<bodhi_zazen> OK, lets run a command on the server :)
<bodhi_zazen> ::)
<bodhi_zazen> you forward application with -X
<WastePotato> Ah. Didn't know you could specify a command on connection. o:
<bodhi_zazen> ssh -X user@server xeyes
<kklimonda> any idea why i can't forward firefox this way?
<bodhi_zazen> will run xeyes on your local client, assuming you have X installed ;)
<bodhi_zazen> yes kklimonda
<HymnToLife> WastePotato: actually, if you   ssh server command
<bodhi_zazen> firefox is an exception to this
<bodhi_zazen> firefox will run LOCAL
<HymnToLife> only that command will be run on the server
<bodhi_zazen> unless you tell it NOT to
<HymnToLife> you won't get a prompt
<kklimonda> bodhi_zazen: why is that?
<bodhi_zazen> it is the way they built firefox
<HymnToLife> kklimonda: actually, the "firefox" command runs a shell script that in turn runs Firefox itself
<kklimonda> bodhi_zazen: is it ssh problem or generally X forwarding?
<kklimonda> HymnToLife: and that's the reason?
<HymnToLife> so if you do that, you'll run the shell script that is on the server
<kklimonda> i see
<bodhi_zazen> this is a firefox problem kklimonda
<HymnToLife> but it will then run the firefox that is on the client
<HymnToLife> kklimonda: see for example   gedit `which firefox`
<bodhi_zazen> Try ssh server /usr/bin/firefox -p -no-remote
<bodhi_zazen> :)
<HymnToLife> that's what is run when you type "firefox" at your prompt
<kklimonda> HymnToLife: i thought that wrapper script will pass everything that is needed to firefox binary
<bodhi_zazen> you need to tell firefox -no-remote to run it on server and forward it back over ssh
<bodhi_zazen> OK, if you run a ssh server, BE SURE YOU SECURE IT :)
<bodhi_zazen> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/AdvancedOpenSSH
<HymnToLife> it is already fairly secure by default though
<bodhi_zazen> shall I show you how to use keys ?
<kklimonda> bodhi_zazen: is it possible to disable login by password for some users?
<bodhi_zazen> you use a key pair to log onto the server, then disable password logins
<bodhi_zazen> kklimonda: I do not think you can disable password logins per user
<MattJ> SSH is only as secure as the password you use (I learnt that the hard way)
<bodhi_zazen> you can do it for root
<bodhi_zazen> +1 MattJ
<kklimonda> bodhi_zazen: i can set up that root and only root doesn't use password login?
<bodhi_zazen> shall we demo a key ?
<HymnToLife> kklimonda: yes, but it's really better to disable it altogether
<kklimonda> HymnToLife: i know
<bodhi_zazen> yes kklimonda
<kklimonda> HymnToLife: but it is the case that I don't want to do it
<HymnToLife> may I ask why?
<bodhi_zazen> I think it is AllowRootLogin nopassword
<bodhi_zazen> something like that
<bodhi_zazen> do not let "nopassword" fool you
<bodhi_zazen> see man sshd_config
<bodhi_zazen> OK, everyone on my shared ssh session ?
<bodhi_zazen> want to see how to make a key ?
<kklimonda> HymnToLife: other users doesn't use linux, configuring keys in putty isn't as easy, they don't want to do it.
<bodhi_zazen> Command : ssh-keygen -t rsa -b 4096 -f root
<bodhi_zazen> enter your desired password
<bodhi_zazen> now we have 2 files , root and root.pub
<bodhi_zazen> we transfer root.pub to the server
<kklimonda> bodhi_zazen: can I force password login by passing an argument to ssh ?
<kklimonda> i'd like to test PermitRootLogin without-password
<bodhi_zazen> into /root/.ssh/authorized_keys
<bodhi_zazen> kklimonda: I can show you this ;)
<kklimonda> sure
<bodhi_zazen> watch in the session and we can config
<bodhi_zazen> Command : ssh-copy-id -i ./root.pub root@192.168.1.14
<bodhi_zazen> the command ssh-copy-id does all this for us automatically
<bodhi_zazen> now let us ssh into server again ;)
<bodhi_zazen> that went by fast :)
<bodhi_zazen> see we get 1 attempt w/ key, then if the wrong PW is entered, fall back to password ?
<bodhi_zazen> let us change that on the server :)
<bodhi_zazen> now kklimonda :)
<bodhi_zazen> see kklimonda , no log in w/o key :)
<bodhi_zazen> but with key :)
<bodhi_zazen> lol
<kklimonda> bodhi_zazen: but what when I have key already on server, password already in seahorse cache and I want to simulate password login? :)
<kklimonda> can I use -i /dev/null or something?
<kklimonda> (i should check but if you are already here to poke... ;) )
<bodhi_zazen> that change will disable passwords :)
<bodhi_zazen> test it out kklimonda :)
<bodhi_zazen> OK , now a bit of security
<bodhi_zazen> the key from the server insures against a "man in the middle" attack
<bodhi_zazen> let us change the stored server key :)
<bodhi_zazen> I changed the key
<bodhi_zazen> now let us log in
<bodhi_zazen> OH NO !!!
<bodhi_zazen> now what everyone says , just delete ~/.ssh/known_hoses
<bodhi_zazen> *hosts
<bodhi_zazen> DO NOT DO THIS
<bodhi_zazen> first  contact the sys admin on the server
<bodhi_zazen> and make sure the keys changed
<bodhi_zazen> we know we changed the key
<bodhi_zazen> so how to remove the key ?
<bodhi_zazen> easily ?
<bodhi_zazen> without removing all your keys ?
<bodhi_zazen> ssh-keygen -R 192.168.1.14
<bodhi_zazen> now watch :)
<bodhi_zazen> >:)
<bodhi_zazen> easy as pie
<kklimonda> indeed
<bodhi_zazen> now ...
<bodhi_zazen> want to log in w/o entering a password ?
<bodhi_zazen> use ssh-agent / ssh-add
<bodhi_zazen> Normally you use ssh-add in an X session
<bodhi_zazen> ie seahorse
<bodhi_zazen> but in a terminal ?
<bodhi_zazen> Could not open a connection to your authentication agent.
<bodhi_zazen> anyone know what to do in a terminal w/o X ?
<bodhi_zazen> ???
<HymnToLife> yup
<kklimonda> you should tell about keys without password - it's still common to see it as a solution in some guides
<bodhi_zazen> ssh-agent bash
<bodhi_zazen> or ssh-agent zsh
<HymnToLife> that's not how I do it
<HymnToLife> I have this in my crontab:
<HymnToLife> @reboot ssh-agent -s | grep -v echo > $HOME/.ssh-agent
<bodhi_zazen> now :)
<HymnToLife> and a   source ~/.ssh-agent
<HymnToLife> in my .zshrc
<bodhi_zazen> lol HymnToLife :)
<bodhi_zazen> see, I ssh into server w/o entering a PW
<bodhi_zazen> and look ma, no empty key :)
<bodhi_zazen> now when I close the shell
<ibuclaw> hehe
<bodhi_zazen> password is forgotten :)
 * ibuclaw is running a remote upgrade
<HymnToLife> I also have keyon/keyoff as aliases for ssh-add
<bodhi_zazen> if you use ssh, you should look at screen
<HymnToLife> to just make it "forget" the pasphrase in one command
<HymnToLife> instead of exitting the shell
<bodhi_zazen> screen allows you to run a command in the server, exit the ssh session, and the command keeps on running ;)
<bodhi_zazen> we shall save screen for another day ?
<kklimonda> bodhi_zazen: is you screen profile the same bundled with ubuntu screen package?
<bodhi_zazen> here is how to use putty :
<bodhi_zazen> http://wiki.amahi.org/index.php/Key-based_SSH_Logins_With_Putty
<bodhi_zazen> works on windows and linux :)
<bodhi_zazen> kklimonda: for this session it is
<bodhi_zazen> OK, that is ssh 101 :)
<bodhi_zazen> questions ?
<kklimonda> i think you have answered all mine.
<kklimonda> thanks :)
<bodhi_zazen> np :)
<bodhi_zazen> I think there were some additional questions ?
<kklimonda> hmm.. weird.. i can't remove ssh key pass phase from seahorse cache
<kklimonda> at least not from any gui
<bodhi_zazen> I have not been a huge fan of seahorse :)
<bodhi_zazen> yes it makes it easy, but if you want to change something it is a pain :(
<bodhi_zazen> Any other questions on ssh ?
<kklimonda> nope
<bodhi_zazen> and HymnToLife I made a rsa key "just for your" , lol
<bodhi_zazen> *you
<bodhi_zazen> I will hold another session in 2 weeks
<bodhi_zazen> suggestions for topic ?
<kklimonda> about?
<kklimonda> oh :)
<kklimonda> hmm.. screen magic would be nice
<kklimonda> But I won't be here probably
<bodhi_zazen> screen would be fun :)
<kklimonda> or maybe..
<kklimonda> yeah
<bodhi_zazen> other suggestions ?
<kklimonda> I know some basics etc. but I know that screen has a lot of potential..
<bodhi_zazen> kklimonda: http://www.pixelbeat.org/lkdb/screen.html
<bodhi_zazen> http://blog.bodhizazen.net/linux/shared-ssh-sessions-update-for-jaunty-ubuntu-904/
<kklimonda> thanks for this post - i'll read it later.
<kklimonda> i was going to ask how you did it :)
<bodhi_zazen> ;)
<bodhi_zazen> It is a very nice, secure teaching tool ;)
<kklimonda> exactly
<bodhi_zazen> I had to open a few small holes to allow this session in fact ;)
<bodhi_zazen> ibuclaw: questions ?
<bodhi_zazen> WastePotato: you ?
<ibuclaw> bodhi_zazen, not any from me...
<bodhi_zazen> aww ...
<kklimonda> bodhi_zazen: why is apparmor policy modification needed?
<bodhi_zazen> what ?
<bodhi_zazen> you mean why did I write an apparmor policy for the shared session ?
<kklimonda> oh, i see - jailbash is used instead of rbash?
<ibuclaw> bodhi_zazen, I've actually not paid a great amount of attention. Just picked up the `ssh iain@192.168.1.8`, `ssh -X iain@192.168.1.4 gui-app`, `ssh-keygen -t rsa -b 4096 -f root` and `ssh-copy-id -i ./iain.pub iain@192.168.1.8` commands and have been playing about ever since ;)
<bodhi_zazen> nice ibuclaw
<bodhi_zazen> jailzsh actually
<bodhi_zazen> I can give out the guru key to members of the BT for teaching
<bodhi_zazen> and this allows them to do a whole ton
<bodhi_zazen> but I restrict what they can do
<ibuclaw> since I'm behind a router, and I don't plan on port forwarding, I don't think I need to look too deep into the security side... yet. But I've learnt something today, that's for sure ;)
<bodhi_zazen> for example, you still in the shared session ?
<bodhi_zazen> want to see a demo of apparmor ?
<kklimonda> no, i can login again
<ibuclaw> kklimonda, you can break out of rbash in less than 3 seconds
<bodhi_zazen> kk
<kklimonda> ibuclaw: nice :)
<bodhi_zazen> you in ?
<kklimonda> yes
<bodhi_zazen> see how I allow root access ?
<bodhi_zazen> but apparmor will restrict even root
<bodhi_zazen> :)
<kklimonda> bodhi_zazen: btw.. there is a lot of discussion about apparmor vs. selinux - do you know what do ubuntu developers think about it?
<bodhi_zazen> see how I restrict the access to the net w/ iptables
<kklimonda> yeh
<bodhi_zazen> apparmor does not allow root to turn it off
<bodhi_zazen> he he he
<bodhi_zazen> nor read sshd-config, let alone change
<bodhi_zazen> so I am resticting what this machine can do no my LAN
<bodhi_zazen> I specifically allowed access to 192.168.1.14 for this session ;)
<kklimonda> oh :)
<bodhi_zazen> see, apparmor blocks access to .bashrc as well >:)
<bodhi_zazen> lol
<bodhi_zazen> and everyone likes that command :)
<kklimonda> this one should be default :)
<bodhi_zazen> this shell ?
<kklimonda> nah, preventing rm -rf / ;)
<bodhi_zazen> preventing rm -rf /
<bodhi_zazen> is default as of 8.10
<kklimonda> oh? damn :)
<kklimonda> nice
<bodhi_zazen> but do not
<bodhi_zazen> rm -rf /*
<bodhi_zazen> lol
<kklimonda> it still works? :)
<bodhi_zazen> see ?
<kklimonda> yes
<bodhi_zazen> >:)
<bodhi_zazen> shh, don't tell anyone
<kklimonda> :D
<bodhi_zazen> I like to see everyone's response when root is restricted by apparmor
<bodhi_zazen> as you can see, it is not a "fake" root account
<bodhi_zazen> uid = 0
<bodhi_zazen> 3 min left
<bodhi_zazen> questions ?
<bodhi_zazen> other things to see and do ?
<bodhi_zazen> kklimonda: you still loged in ?
<kklimonda> yes
<bodhi_zazen> watch this :)
<bodhi_zazen> see that command ?
<kklimonda> *nods*
<kklimonda> :)
<bodhi_zazen> see what happened ?
<kklimonda> yup - nice feature
<bodhi_zazen> if I am not running a shared session -> no guest log in
<bodhi_zazen> try it
<bodhi_zazen> my iptables rules will block you for 10 min or so, nothing serious :)
<bodhi_zazen> go ahead, hit it 3 times or so :p
<kklimonda> ;)
<kklimonda> bodhi_zazen: great job with this screen setup.
<kklimonda> It works great and looks nice :)
<kklimonda> ok, time for my
<kklimonda> good night everyone
<bodhi_zazen> thanks kklimonda :)
<bodhi_zazen> thank  you all for coming :)
<WastePotato> o/
<WastePotato> Damn. Missed half of it. I'll read the scrollback. :S
#ubuntu-classroom 2009-04-25
<L3v3L> Hi what would be the best software to run ubuntu 9.04?
<L3v3L> virtually
<L3v3L> sorry left that out
<L3v3L> vmware?
<kklimonda> 9.04 works pretty well in vmware 6.5.2
<kklimonda> the only thing i had to do manually was to install vmmouse driver for X
<kklimonda> the rest was configured automatically.
<kklimonda> (even mouse after driver was installed)
<L3v3L> cool thanks
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Ubuntu Classroom || https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-classroom | Ubuntu Open Week! Mon 27 April - Fri 1 May https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | Run 'date -u' in a terminal to find out the UTC time
<G__81> hi everyone
<kklimonda> hi
<MBA-systems> hello
<MBA-systems> huhu
<MBA-systems> whois mba-systems
#ubuntu-classroom 2009-04-26
 * Kenny_Meyer is away: is currently away
<nhandler> Kenny_Meyer: Please disable your away script
<Kenny_Meyer> Not allowed?
<nhandler> Kenny_Meyer: Not really. Take a look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcGuidelines
<Kenny_Meyer> I'm sorry
<Kenny_Meyer> switched off
<nhandler> :)
<sattam> hi , when the class  start  ?
<sattam> Sun Apr 26 16:04:32 UTC 2009
<nhandler> sattam: What class is that? I'm not seeing anything on the calendar or classroom wiki page
<pleia2> sattam: not until tomorrow UTC, the open week schedule is here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
<sattam> sorry :(
<sattam> nhandler: and thanks :)
<Leon_Nardella>  Thu 28 May 2009     00:00 UTC     Packaging using CDBS     nhandler
<Leon_Nardella> This is in April, isn't it?
<pleia2> oops, yes
<Leon_Nardella> Hmm, double entries
 * pleia2 fixes wiki
<nhandler> pleia2: No it isn't
<nhandler> pleia2: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Packaging/Training
<pleia2> err, I mean it's not
<pleia2> but the wiki is wrong
<pleia2> sorry
<pleia2> aside from UOW, the class this week is the one on the 30th :)
<Kenny_Meyer> pleia2: thx for the information
<jimi_> guten Abend
#ubuntu-classroom 2010-04-26
<whore> hi,somebody?
<ghostcube> ?
<whore> nothing
<whore> i just want to make sure that somebody are here
<ghostcube> :)
<andi_nuryadin1> selamat malam semua
#ubuntu-classroom 2010-04-27
<bilalakhtar> People, is the AskMark time fixed?
<popey> bilalakhtar: it can move sometimes if marks schedule gets in the way
<bilalakhtar> I asked this question as in the wiki page its given that one should confirm the time with the presenter (sabdfl himself in this case). Of course, it would be rude to ask him directly. Will the session be held here?
<popey> it doesnt say mark needs to confirm
<popey> there's only one that's yellow, and needs confirming
<bilalakhtar> popey: Oh, it has been moved. I saw it last on saturday, and it said that askmark would be held on 6th may
<nhandler> bilalakhtar: The easiest thing to do is to subscribe to the calendar (link on the OpenWeek wiki page). The calendar will be kept up-to-date, and you won't need to keep checking the wiki
<bilalakhtar> nhandler: Thanks. I will leave now
#ubuntu-classroom 2010-04-28
<qwebirc36213> l
<bilalakhtar> join #ubuntu-classroom-chat
#ubuntu-classroom 2010-04-29
<dholbach> Packaging Training: Fixing small bugs in Ubuntu: in 10 minutes - http://is.gd/bLixO
<ajmitch> arg, lernid hates me today :)
<imbrandon> heh
<dholbach> good morning everybody - who's here for the packaging training session today?
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Event: Packaging Training Session - Current Session: Fixing small bugs in Ubuntu - Instructor: dholbach || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<dholbach> I've never used classbot before, so I suppose you need to ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<dholbach> so if you could please join that, I'd appreciate it
<dholbach> so who's here for the packaging training session today? :)
<dholbach> hum, ajmitch and imbrandon are sure going to know all of this already - maybe we should move back the session by 2h or something?
<dholbach> alright, let's do it now then :)
<dholbach> so I picked a few "easier" bugs that weren't solved yet, and we'll have a look at them and see what we can do about them
<dholbach> while we investigate them I'll try to explain a bit more about the processes in ubuntu, the tools, etc. so the next time you hit a somewhat similar (but different) situation you know what to do, who to talk to, etc
<dholbach> if you have any questions, or if I'm wrong or I don't make sense or go to fast or slow, please speak up in #ubuntu-classroom-chat :)
<dholbach> alright
<dholbach> first of all, let's install a few packages we're going to need:
<dholbach>   sudo apt-get install --no-install-recommends libtool ubuntu-dev-tools debhelper cdbs pbuilder build-essential
<dholbach>  - build-essential gives you tools to compile packages
<dholbach>  - cdbs and debhelper contain scripts that streamline the packaging of applications
<dholbach>  - pbuilder is a tool to test-build packages in a sane environment
<dholbach>  - ubuntu-dev-tools contains a few useful scripts for developing on Ubuntu (and will pull in devscripts that contains even more useful scripts for developing and packaging :-))
<dholbach>  - libtool is required by one of the packages we'll work on later on
<dholbach> ok... a tiny bit of preparation now - I'll keep this short
<dholbach> Please make sure you have "source package entries" enabled in your /etc/apt/sources.list
<dholbach> a    grep deb-src /etc/apt/sources.list    will make sure
<dholbach> System â Administration â Software Sources â Software â Sources     will work too
<dholbach> (I hope that's what it's called in English, I use a German Ubuntu over here.)
<dholbach> next please edit ~/.pbuilderrc
<dholbach> (if it's not there, create it)
<dholbach> and please add this entry
<dholbach> COMPONENTS="main universe multiverse restricted"
<dholbach> save it
<dholbach> next please edit ~/.bashrc (if you use the bash shell - if you use something else, edit the appropriate settings)
<dholbach> and add
<dholbach> export DEBFULLNAME='Daniel Holbach'
<dholbach> export DEBEMAIL='daniel.holbach@ubuntu.com'
<dholbach> please use your own name and email address :-)
<dholbach> thanks!
<dholbach> next please run
<dholbach>   source ~/.bashrc
<dholbach> (or restart your terminal session)
<dholbach> next please run
<dholbach>   sudo pbuilder create
<dholbach> (this will take a while)
<dholbach> now what did we do
<dholbach> 1) we enabled a source package entry for apt so we can get the source of all packages very easily
<dholbach> 2) told pbuilder that it should use all components by default
<dholbach> 3) gave a lot of packaging tools a bit more information about ourselves (so we don't need to type in our name and email manually all the time)
<dholbach> all good up until now?
<dholbach> rock and roll
<dholbach> ok, here's our first bug
<dholbach> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/mime-support/+bug/567527
<dholbach> arand asks "existing gpg-key is assumed? Or not required in this case?"
<dholbach> it's not required, but https://help.ubuntu.com/community/GnuPrivacyGuardHowto is a good guide to get it set up
<dholbach> awesome, now we can speak in here too :)
<dholbach> thanks again pleia2 :)
<pleia2> sure thing :)
<dholbach> ok, back to our mime-support bug
<dholbach> apparently there's a typo in there: "form" should be "from"
<dholbach> let's get the source and find out
<dholbach>   apt-get source mime-support
<dholbach> it's always good to read and understand the whole bug report before you start... Scott Ritchie found out that it's a problem in cautious-launcher
<dholbach> daniel@miyazaki:~/mime-support-3.48$ find . -name cautious-launcher
<dholbach> ./debian/cautious-launcher
<dholbach> daniel@miyazaki:~/mime-support-3.48$
<dholbach> so cautious-launcher is a script that lives in the debian directory of the source, it should be safe for us to just go and edit it and fix the bug (we'll hit a different case later on where it's not that straight-forward)
<dholbach> so go and edit the file, and change "form" to "from"
<dholbach> <arand> otherwise   grep -r "form an untrused" .  in the source directory would point out the file ;)
<dholbach> arand is right :)
<dholbach> next we need to document what we just did and update the version number of the package
<dholbach> please run
<dholbach>   dch -i
<dholbach> dch is a very useful script from devscripts that deals with editing debian/changelog - it should have added a new entry for you and added your name and email
<dholbach> let's go through the format of the changelog entry real quick
<dholbach> first up is the name of the source package
<dholbach> then we have the version number, in our case 3.48-1ubuntu2
<dholbach> which means: upstream version (released by the software authors) is 3.48, 1st revision in debian, 2nd revision in ubuntu
<dholbach> it shows quite well the flow of the software in terms of releases
<dholbach> upstream â debian â ubuntu
<dholbach> that's something we care about a lot, which is why James Westby's comment in the bug report is important too, he says that it's an ubuntu-specific script, so in this case we don't necessarily need to forward the change to debian or upstream, but maybe we want to send the whole script to them at some stage
<dholbach> ok, getting back to changelog entry
<dholbach> mime-support (3.48-1ubuntu2) lucid; urgency=low
<dholbach> next up is the version of ubuntu we want to upload it to (lucid in our case)
<dholbach> and the urgency we can ignore for now - while Launchpad now supports urgency (I've been told) it's rarely used
<dholbach> my actual changelog entry looks like this
<dholbach> * debian/cautious-launcher: "form" â "from" (LP: #567527)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 567527 in mime-support "Typo in warning dialog" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/567527
<dholbach> it mentions the file we changed, mentions what we changed and also mentions the launchpad bug in a special format
<dholbach> it's important to refer to some kind of discussion of the problem in the changelog, so it's clearer to others later on
<dholbach> this special format will also make sure the bug gets automatically closed when we upload the package
<dholbach> next please run:
<dholbach>    debuild -S -sa -us -uc
<dholbach> and if it asks you about some tarball that's missing, please just say "yes" :)
<dholbach> that's a packaging mistake we probably shouldn't get ourselves into right now - not our fault
<dholbach> did that pan out alright for everybody?
<dholbach> did anybody get lost along the way?
<dholbach> excellent
<dholbach> if you now would please run:
<dholbach>  cd ..
<dholbach>  debdiff mime-support_3.48-1ubuntu{1,2}.dsc
<dholbach> and paste the output to http://paste.ubuntu.com I'd appreciate it
<dholbach> and I'll do a quick review
<dholbach> <bbordwell> what is the significance of the arguments in this command? debuild -S -sa -us -uc
<dholbach> good question bbordwell
<dholbach> "-us -uc" will tell debuild (which will pass this on to dpkg-buildpackage) to not try to sign the source package or changes file with your gpg key later on
<dholbach> we just do this because we didn't set up the gpg key together
<dholbach> (use the link above and you should be fine and can drop -us -uc in the future)
<dholbach> "-S" will tell debuild to rebuild the source package as opposed to build the .deb package itself
<dholbach> "-sa" is just necessary if you want to upload the source package somewhere
<dholbach> so did you post your patches to some pastebin?
<dholbach> can I have the links?
<dholbach> "debdiff mime-support_3.48-1ubuntu{1,2}.dsc" and paste the output to http://paste.ubuntu.com
<dholbach> also: to test-build the package, run    sudo pbuilder build mime-support_3.48-1ubuntu2.dsc
<dholbach> a note on pbuilder: it will set up a chrooted environment which will just contain a bare base system, then install all the necessary packages to build that source package, then tear it down again
<dholbach> the obvious advantages of this are: the package will be built in a clean and sane environment as opposed to your probably quite modified system and you don't have to install 43217139513 of -dev packages and build-dependencies
<dholbach> <bbordwell> Is this what you were looking for? http://paste.ubuntu.com/424428/
<dholbach> <arand> http://pastebin.com/dDuWneYc
<dholbach> arand: this looks good
<dholbach> bbordwell: is that the changes file?
<dholbach> bbordwell: can you post the output of the debdiff command?
<dholbach>  debdiff mime-support_3.48-1ubuntu{1,2}.dsc
<dholbach> (lp:567527) needs to be (LP: #567527) for Launchpad to trigger the closing of the bug
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 567527 in mime-support "Typo in warning dialog" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/567527
<dholbach> but as far as I can see this looks good already
<dholbach> so once you have 1) found a fix, 2) test-built the package, 3) tested it you can proceed to
<dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SponsorshipProcess (I'll give you some links later on again) which explains how to get a patch uploaded to Ubuntu
<dholbach> ok, let's crack on - bbordwell just had some issues, we hope to have figured them out
<dholbach> next bug
<dholbach> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/app-install-data-ubuntu/+bug/538221
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 538221 in app-install-data-ubuntu "typo in GTK wiimote whiteboard (whitebaord)" [Undecided,New]
<dholbach> ok, this one is a big misleading
<dholbach> it says that the bug is in app-install-data-ubuntu which is the package that contains all the package descriptions for software-center (and gnome-app-install)
<ClassBot> There are are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<dholbach> you need to know that app-install-data-ubuntu is generated from lots and lots of other packages, so very rarely the bug will be in app-install-data-ubuntu itself
<dholbach> to find out which package is actually concerned, I tried this:
<dholbach> daniel@miyazaki:~$ apt-cache search wiimote whiteboard
<dholbach> gtkwhiteboard - GTK+ Wiimote Whiteboard
<dholbach> daniel@miyazaki:~$
<dholbach> so we'll do a similar dance as last time again :-)
<dholbach>   apt-get source gtkwhiteboard
<dholbach>   cd gtkwhiteboard-1.3+dfsg/
<dholbach>   grep -ri whitebaord .
<dholbach> will show you where the typo turned up
<dholbach> luckily, again it's just in files that were added by the packaging (that live in debian/)
<dholbach> so please go and fix all of these 3 files
<ClassBot> There are are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<dholbach> ok, when you're done, document it again
<dholbach>   dch -i
<dholbach> then run
<dholbach>   update-maintainer
<dholbach> then
<dholbach>   debuild -S -us -uc
<dholbach> what update-maintainer does is: change the Maintainer name/email in debian/control to preserver the debian maintainer in a different variable and set an ubuntu mailing list as maintainer
<dholbach> that's something our friends at debian asked us to do so they don't get bug mail for changes that were introduced in Ubuntu, etc :)
<dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebianMaintainerField for more info :)
<dholbach> ok, again send me the output of the debdiff command
<dholbach>   cd ..
<dholbach>   debdiff gtkwhiteboard_1.3+dfsg-5.2{,ubuntu1}.dsc
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi
<dholbach> in the meantime a few links that will probably help you
<dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/GettingStarted links to all the bits that are useful along your way
<dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide for a quick tutorial for the packaging basics
<dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment for more info about the ubuntu development processes
<dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SponsorshipProcess for getting changes uploaded into Ubuntu
<dholbach> did anyone get the whitebaord debdiff? :)
<dholbach> are there any more questions?
<dholbach> <aburch> dholbach: If bugs are assigned to the wrong package, they should be reassigned (the one in gtkwhiteboard)
<dholbach> aburch: yes, totally
<dholbach> whatever new you find out, you should put add as information to the bug report
<dholbach> so even if you don't manage to fix the bug completely the next one attempting has that info already :)
<dholbach> <arand> I'm not sure really how to do the changelog on this one, it seems a bit much stating all the files cahnged, and a bit little to omit it completely..: http://pastebin.com/aGiMBSYg
<dholbach> arand: this looks good - I personally absolutely wouldn't mind listing all the files, but that's a matter of preference :)
<dholbach> also... if you found you like working on bugs and getting packages fixed, consider dropping in #ubuntu-packaging or #ubuntu-motu
<dholbach> and ask all the questions you have there
<dholbach> there are lots of really helpful people in there who will help you get started
<dholbach> thanks a lot everybody for attending
<dholbach> you ROCK!
<ajmitch> thanks dholbach!
<dholbach> next week is Ubuntu Open Week and we'll have a bunch of sessions related to development there too
<dholbach> it'll be awesome
<ubuntu> +
<simar> hello ppl isn't a way of attending the study material of today's classroom if somone was absent at that time ??????
<joaopinto> simar, check the irc logs, google: ubuntu irc logs
<simar> joaopinto, is the classrooms conducted only via chat ??? 2days wad that of danial
<simar> ??
<joaopinto> yes, only via chat
<simar> joaopinto,  ok fne
<simar> joaopinto, could you help me about triaging bugs ... i have read how to triage guide ... n i feel it insufficient knowledge to start triaging .....  like i don't know what bugs to triage  ... n many more things???
<simar> plz help
<joaopinto> simar, this is not a support channel, the best channel to get help with bugs traging is #ubuntu-bugs
<joaopinto> triaging
<simar> joaopinto,  but nobody replies there ... is it like question should be adressed to someone or????
<joaopinto> it means you need to wait for someone to become available
<simar> ok
#ubuntu-classroom 2010-05-01
<mbudde> Test :)
#ubuntu-classroom 2010-05-02
<Gepapaios> hello everyone
#ubuntu-classroom 2011-04-28
<jsjgruber> lernid test in chatroom
<BladeFreak> #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<spartan-117> Hello
#ubuntu-classroom 2011-04-29
<Guest1363> :)
#ubuntu-classroom 2011-05-01
<asnos> juraria que esto estaba casi vacio hace unos minutos
<asnos> a ya se. me equivocado
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Involving in ubuntu development/packaging and kickstarting your box  for ubuntu development/packaging - Instructors: TBD
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/05/01/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Introduction to Unity - Instructors: jcastro
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/05/01/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/05/01/%23ubuntu-classroom.html
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat ||
<nhandler> Sorry about that. For anyone interested in Ubuntu Open Week, the sessions will begin on May 2.
#ubuntu-classroom 2012-04-23
<xplicit27> hello all
#ubuntu-classroom 2012-04-24
<sirtuun> hello
#ubuntu-classroom 2012-04-25
<jose___> hi
<Kvrmurthy> #ubuntu-in
#ubuntu-classroom 2012-04-26
<jsjgruber-x-p> test message, please pardon me
<Marc`> exit
<farouk> hi
#ubuntu-classroom 2012-04-27
<bobweaver> Hello there all hoe everyone is having a great day. I/and others  started up something for ubuntu forums and ubuntu wiki. we have a v.small team that takes tutorials from ubuntu forums and we have a tool that I made that converts all the forums html too moin moin markdown. so that it can go up on the wiki fast and othres do not need to type out the whole tutorial. we are thinking about also using it for ask ubun
<bobweaver> comunnity wiki that is
<bobweaver> looks like on friday @ 1700 there is nothing booked. we have a monthly meetings on the 1st wed of each month and am going to put on agaenda right now to see also what the team thinks. once again thanks for your time.
<pleia2> bobweaver: were you asking something earlier? your message is a bit unclear to me (and we do have a classroom session at 17:00 UTC today)
<tomek204> Hello everyone
<tomek204> I'm leading today's classes
<tomek204> We have 3 minutes before start
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Current Session: Ubuntu Algorithm Class 2 - Instructors: bdfhjk, tomek204
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2012/04/27/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<tomek204> Ok
<tomek204> I guess we can start
<tomek204> Welcome to the second classes.
<tomek204> Todayâs topic is graphs.
<tomek204> First I will introduce the definition of a graph, different types of graphs and their uses.
<tomek204> Then I will talk about representing a graph in computer memory. I will show you adjacency matrix in which we can store the graph.
<tomek204> The last part will be Depth-first Search algorithm. Itâs a simple algorithm used for exploring a graph.
<tomek204> If thereâs anything You donât understand, please ask.
<tomek204> Ok, letâs start. I think we should begin with a question: What is a graph?
<barzoslaw> mlp ftw
<barzoslaw> i have no idea
<tomek204> The definition says that graph is a pair of two sets: set of verticles (nodes) and a set of edges.
<tomek204> To understand this definition think of a map.
<tomek204> There are some cities marked on it. We can compare them to verticles in graph.
<tomek204> There are also roads between some pairs of two cities.
<tomek204> They can be the edges in a graph representing this city.
<tomek204> If there is an edge (u,v), it means you can reach city v from city u.
<tomek204> Please tell me if that's clear for you.
<faroukelabady> Not quite can you illustrate the last sentence more clearly
<tomek204> The edges in a graph are marked as (u,v)
<tomek204> where u and v are verticles
<tomek204> connected by this edge
<tomek204> So if such edge exists
<tomek204> It means those two verticles (cities in the example)
<tomek204> are connected
<bdfhjk> consider edge as the road between cities
<tomek204> That's right, road (u,v) connects city u and city v
<faroukelabady> I see, so if I say the edge (u,v) then I am talking about the road the connects the u city with the v city
<tomek204> Yes
<tomek204> Now letâs think of another example: Ubuntu repositories.
<tomek204> There are some packages and dependencies between them
<tomek204> (You canât install a package until you install all packages used/needed by the desired one).
<tomek204> Can you guess what will verticles and edges represent?
<tomek204> vertices*
<tomek204> As someone said on chat channel,
<tomek204> vertices will represent packages
<tomek204> and edges would be dependencies between packages
<tomek204> So an edge (u,v) here would mean that to install package u You need package v first.
<bdfhjk> there important to note is, that we consider edges from u to v
<bdfhjk> and two edges (u,v) and (v,u) are different
<tomek204> Yes, now we consider "one-way" edges
<tomek204> Thanks for this
<tomek204>  There are two main types of graphs: directed graphs and undirected graphs.  What is the difference?
<tomek204> I will explain it using our first example - map, where nodes are the cities and edges - roads between them.
<tomek204> In undirected graph if you have an edge (u,v), You can go from node u to v and from v to u.
<tomek204> Itâs like a two-way road between two cities on our map. We can travel between these cities both ways
<tomek204> We can say that in undirected graph (u,v) and (v,u) are the same edge.
<tomek204> Do You have any questions so far?
<tomek204> If not, I will now explain directed graph.
<tomek204> In directed graph every edge has itâs direction.
<tomek204> Just like a one-way road - you can go in one, specified way.
<tomek204>  An edge (u,v) lets us reach city v from city u, but we canât go from u to v.
<tomek204> Sometimes even in directed graph we can go both ways between two nodes.
<tomek204> Can you guess when?
<tomek204> We can go both ways between nodes u, v when there are edges (u,v) and (v,u) in the directed graph.
<faroukelabady> If there is another road from u to another city then v
<barzoslaw> No shit
<tomek204> If you have any question
<tomek204> please ask now
<barzoslaw> Why you all start your sentences with capital letters?
<barzoslaw> And why your english is so sophisticated?
<tomek204> You just did it
<tomek204> Now You may wonder what are uses of the graphs.
<tomek204> There are quite a lot of them.
<tomek204> I already told You about two example uses - representing a map or dependencies in packages repository.
<tomek204> Representing map as a graph, we can etc. check if two cities are connected or get the lowest time or price for travelling between them.
<barzoslaw> And why you end your sentences with dots?
<tomek204> There is special kind of graph - tree, which can be also used for many problems, even if some of them donât seem to be connected with graphs.
<tomek204> For example we can build dictionary or search engine using prefix trees.
<tomek204> The next thing we will learn is storing a graph in computer memory.
<tomek204> I hope You wouldnât have problem with drawing a graph on a piece of paper.
<tomek204> All we need to do is to draw some points which would be the vertices and lines between them.
<tomek204> Note that lines in directed graphs have arrows.
<pleia2> just a quick reminder, please ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat and start your questions with QUESTION:
<tomek204> But how to keep it in computer?
<tomek204> Do You know any methods?
<tomek204> The thing we need is adjacency matrix. Itâs a boolean matrix sized n x n.
<ClassBot> the_hydra asked: array 2d
<tomek204> That's right, sorry that I noticed it now
<tomek204> So we need adjacency matrix.
<tomek204> Letâs call it Adj[n][n]. For every two nodes u, v, Adj[u][v] = true if there is an edge (u,v) and Adj[u][v] = false otherwise.
<tomek204> That's very important part, if You don't understand it please ask.
<ClassBot> the_hydra asked: array 2d
<ClassBot> jsjgruber-l82-p asked: Why not just use two lists: V=[a,b,c] and E=[(a,b), (b,c)]
<tomek204> It would work
<tomek204> But it would be hard to find all edges coming out of a given node
<ClassBot> faroukelabady asked: can you give a quick reminder on adj in matrix
<tomek204> Adj will be the name of our adjacency matrix
<tomek204> Please look at the C++ implementation of adjacency matrix:
<tomek204> int n, m;  bool Adj[1000][1000];  void read(){    cin >> n >> m;    for(int i = 0; i < m; i++){        int u, v; cin >> u >> v;        Adj[u][v] = true;     } }
<tomek204> oh, sorry
<tomek204> I'll put it line by line
<tomek204> int n, m;
<tomek204> bool Adj[1000][1000];
<tomek204> void read(){
<tomek204>    cin >> n >> m;
<tomek204>    for(int i = 0; i < m; i++){
<tomek204>        int u, v; cin >> u >> v;
<tomek204>        Adj[u][v] = true; }}
<tomek204> Function read() reads all the edges
<tomek204> and puts them into the adjacency matrix
<tomek204> That was the code for directed graphs
<tomek204> But how to modify it to work with undirected graphs?
<tomek204> Hint: (u,v) and (v,u) are the same edge in undirected graph.
<tomek204> The correct answer is: we need to add line: Adj[v][u] = Adj[u][v];
<tomek204> Remember that Adj[u][v] has already "true" value
<tomek204> Remember to fill the matrix with âfalseâ value before putting the graph in it.
<tomek204> If you would like to practice implementing adjacency matrix, there will soon be a task available.
<tomek204>  Before we start the last part of classes, DFS, please ask about anything that You donât understand.
<tomek204> I can see no questions
<tomek204> Depth-first search is a recursive algorithm.
<tomek204> You can explore the graph using it and get many useful information from it.
<tomek204> It can be used for solving or generating mazes, checking if two cities are connected or finding dependencies in repository.
<tomek204>  But how does it work?
<tomek204> To learn DFS You need to understand function DFS_visit(u), where u is the vertex given.
<tomek204> I'll put a code of this function in a while
<tomek204> Please look at the order of visiting vertices in DFS:  http://jcop.sourceforge.net/images/user/dfs-animated.gif
<tomek204> Here's DFS_visit() function implementation
<tomek204> in C++
<tomek204> :
<tomek204> http://pastebin.com/w7mTN5vh
<tomek204> Do You see how it works?
<tomek204> Ok, I can't see any questions
<tomek204> There is a possibility that starting from example verticle u You wonât reach all other vertices.
<tomek204>  To explore entire graph we need to start DFS_visit(i) for every not visited vertex i.
<tomek204> Please look at the simple code of DFS() function:
<tomek204> http://pastebin.com/CWYmR884
<tomek204> It's just a simple loop through all the vertices
<tomek204> which starts DFS_visit(u) for every node u
<tomek204> That hasn't been visited yet
<tomek204> Note that DFS is a recursive function
<tomek204> so it goes deeper and deeper in the graph
<tomek204> while it can still find unvisited nodes.
<tomek204> I know this algorithm is hard to understand at the beginning
<tomek204> So feel free to ask about anything You don't understand.
<tomek204> Unless You have any questions, that would be all for today.
<tomek204> So I would like to thank You for participating in second Ubuntu Algorithm Classes
<tomek204> Oh, wait
<tomek204> there is a question
<ClassBot> faroukelabady asked: it's clear now :)
<ClassBot> jsjgruber-l82-p asked: So why would I want to visit all unvisited nodes after going through the tree of the nodes I'm interested in?
<tomek204> Usually You need to explore full graph
<tomek204> But if You know in which nodes You are interested
<tomek204> You don't have to go through all the others
<tomek204> I had a questuin on chat channel about finding a "head node"
<tomek204> Please look at the chat if You're interested
<tomek204> I'd like to ask You to complete the survey about this classes
<tomek204> http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/RWFQJDX
<tomek204> If You want to acces notes or IRC log of this classes
<tomek204> Here are the links:
<tomek204> http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2012/04/27/%23ubuntu-classroom.html - log
<tomek204> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jZS1Z6j3xCeZwszMmm6SjUjQah_nouA3yIg1YzxO7yg/edit?pli=1
<bdfhjk> https://docs.google.com/document/d/193hpWIj2R7ZDrHZYr0m6qUVHccvsQmpBlkc6tTf1W7s/edit
<bdfhjk> this doc is correct
<tomek204> At the end
<tomek204> I would like to thank You once again for participation
<tomek204> And I think that's all :)
<bdfhjk> If You have any question
<bdfhjk> not necessary connected with today's topic
<bdfhjk> fell free to ask us
<bdfhjk> I will stay online about 5 minutes from now
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<ClassBot> HH91 asked: is Algorithm Classes Notes 1 still available ?
<bdfhjk> yes
<bdfhjk> link: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1CHU5TgXegp6IkRQhx7ok9HFNMPVONiWojbkIgfdFJrQ/edit
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2012/04/27/%23ubuntu-classroom.html
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat ||
#ubuntu-classroom 2012-04-28
<jsjgruber> short test message
 * the_hydra is away: dinner
<Mkaysi> !away | the_hydra
<ubot2> the_hydra: Please do not use noisy away messages and nicks in Ubuntu channels. It is annoying and unnecessary. Use the command "/away <reason>" to set your client away silently. See also Â«/msg ubottu GuidelinesÂ»
#ubuntu-classroom 2013-04-23
<CarlosDeJackal> hello world
<Noskcaj> is there a chance bug 1172059 will be fixed in time for release?
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 1172059 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "kubuntu ubiquity encryption doesn't check password" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1172059
<Quintasan> Noskcaj: That's really not the best place to ask that
<Noskcaj> oops, wrong channel.
<Noskcaj> it was meant for -bugs
#ubuntu-classroom 2014-04-21
<averaver_> hola
<averaver_> hi
#ubuntu-classroom 2014-04-22
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Introduction to Open Week - Instructors: jose
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2014/04/22/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<jose> hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of the Ubuntu Open Week!
<jose> I'll just give a couple minutes so people can join us
<jose> so, I think we're good to go :)
 * jose plays Jeopardy theme song
<jose> welcome everyone to another Ubuntu Open Week
<jose> before we start, why don't we introduce ourselves? This channel is not-moderated only for this session so we can discuss a bit
<jose> I'll go first: I'm Jose, and I'm from Peru (no, I don't have a llama on my backyard)
<skiei> Hi Jose, good too meet you. I am a developer from Bangalore, India. Looking to find myself a place to contribute to ubuntu/linux.
<jose> welcome, skiei!
<jose> anyone else is around?
<belkinsa> Me!
<jose> hello, Me!
<belkinsa> I'm Svetlana and I'm a Ubuntu Community Member that focuses on get people involved with Ubuntu.  I'm a part of Ubuntu Women, Ohio LoCo, LoCo Contacts, and Ubuntu Doc Team.
<j_f-f> Hi jose
<jose> hello, j_f-f!
<belkinsa> And I will be giving the Ubuntu Women session tomorrow at 1500 UTC with pleia2/
<jincreator_> Hi, all, I'm Jinkyu, university student from Korea. I'm looking for a way contribute to ubuntu by fixing bugs.
<jose> anyone else wants to introduce themselves?
<jose> ok, let's move on, then
<jose> this is the first session we're having for the Ubuntu Open Week, which is a series of sessions where you will be able to find your place in the Ubuntu Community
<jose> we have been planning this so that during the week you will be able to find people from many many different teams
<PabloRubianes> I am here too jose
<jose> hello, PabloRubianes
<PabloRubianes> o/ all
<jose> so whether you are a developer, designer, or a community member you will be able to see a lot of areas where you can contribute
<jose> we're go through some of the basics around the sessions
<jose> first of all, how to ask questions
<jose> if you want to ask any questions, you need to type the word QUESTION: before your actual question
<jose> as an example: "QUESTION: How do I do this?"
<jose> go ahead, and try it if you want
<jose> (that should be done in #ubuntu-classroom-chat)
<ClassBot> jincreator_ asked: How do I do this?
<jose> well, by doing that, for sure :)
<jose> so have in mind that a instructor may choose to answers questions throughout the session or at the end
<ClassBot> torbuntu-germany asked: How old are MArk Shuttleworth?
 * jose checks Wikipedia
<skiei> QUESTION:  (n00b question) how exactly can we find a place to contribute to? i'm new to the foss community, and not too comfortable with finding tasks on my own
<jose> skiei: remember questions are asked in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<jose> so, torbuntu-germany, according to Wikipedia Mark is 40 years old :)
<skiei> oops
<jose> so, yep, that's how you can ask questions
<jose> don't feel ignored if an instructor does not answer your questions right away, they may have chosen to leave questions for the end of the session
<jose> or maybe for the end of the sub-topic
<jose> many times, instructors cover what's on the questions later on in their sessions
<jose> and as you may have discovered by now, #ubuntu-classroom (this channel) is where sessions take place
<jose> and all chatter and questions should go in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<jose> during the sessions, you will not be allowed to talk in here, it will only be restricted to the Instructor
<jose> so moving on
<jose> as I mentioned before, the Ubuntu Open Week is the right event if you want to get involved with the awesome community that we have
<jose> the full schedule can be found here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
<jose> as an example, today we are going to have people from the Ubuntu Server Team, from the Ubuntu Documentation Project, and from the Juju Team
<jose> all of them are going to talk to us about the different things they do on their teams
<jose> and then they're going to explain to us what can we do to contribute to the teams
<jose> or projects
<jose> also, if you are not able to attend a session and want to read the logs, they will be linked to each title on the schedule as soon as we can (it's managed by humans, so things don't happen automagically)
<jose> there is one session each day that will be done via a video livestream, and they are marked with the [ON AIR!] tag on the schedule
<jose> you will be able to watch the video at ubuntuonair.com, and the channel for discussion is still going to be #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<jose> and if you by chance miss the video stream, you can watch it at any time later by going to youtube.com/ubuntuonair
<ClassBot> j_f-f226627 asked: I'm a software Developer especially with C++. How can I help?
<jose> I think I can not give a direct answer to that question right now, but if you find a session that interests you just make sure to be around
<jose> I can suggest the Ubuntu Development Team session, which is taking place on the 24th April at 15 UTC
<ClassBot> DS_McGuire_ asked: I am (in my spare time) a web developer, I study HTML, CSS and JavaScript mostly. Is there anyway I can help?
<jose> DS_McGuire_: for you, I can recommend the Ubuntu Websites and App Development sessions
<jose> but as I mentioned earlier, each of you can mark the session that interests you the most and attend it
<jose> if you check the schedule, all times for sessions are set on UTC
<jose> so make sure to convert the time correctly to see at what time the session you want to attend is, so you don't miss it
<jose> we suggest using timeanddate.com to convert times, or you can click on the time of the event on the schedule
<jose> these will be updated daily so you don't get an error saying that the event has passed :)
<jose> so, I don't know if you guys have any questions about the event itself?
<ClassBot> torbuntu-germany asked: Have the UbuntuOpenWeek Sessions Slides?
<jose> nope, this time OpenWeek sessions will not have slides :(
<ClassBot> jincreator_ asked: Is Ubuntu Open Week runs regularly? If then, when is next Ubuntu Open Week?
<jose> we try to run them regularly, each cycle that is
<jose> usually the first week after release, so...
<jose> I think the release calendar for the next release hasn't been set yet, so we'll have to wait for that :)
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<ClassBot> torbuntu-germany asked: After every Release? Ore LTS Release only?
<jose> we try to do them after every release, but sometimes it's a bit hard to organize this kind of events
<jose> but they are always announced in ubuntuclassroom.wordpress.com, which is our team's blog :)
<jose> before we end this session, I want to thank everyone who is contributing to Open Week :)
<jose> thanks to all of our instructors, to pleia2 for managing some of the sessions, and to Sam Hewitt for the new OpenWeek logo we're featuring this time!
<jose> next up, in a bit less than 7 minutes, we have a session about the Ubuntu Server Team with beisner
<jose> so go grab a cup of coffee, sone snacks, and we'll be back by then
<jose> I hope you enjoy the rest of the OpenWeek, see you all around!
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Ubuntu Server Team - Instructors: beisner
<gaughen> beisner, I'm here!
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2014/04/22/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<beisner> hi, gaughen!  o/
<beisner> Greetings all!
<beisner> We'll wait another minute or so for folks to join.
<beisner> Again, welcome to Ubuntu Open Week!  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
<beisner> Thank you for joining us.
<beisner> A brief intro...
<beisner> My name is Ryan Beisner, I am a Quality Assurance Engineer on the Server Team at Canonical.
<beisner> In other worlds, such as twitter and launchpad, I am 1chb1n.
<beisner> For the first bit of our session, we also have the Ubuntu Server & Openstack Team manager, Pat Gaughen (irc: gaughen) with us today.
<beisner> Thank you for joining, gaughen!  :)
<beisner> Feel free to ping us later on irc or g+ for follow-up questions, etc.
<beisner> ok, so
<beisner> First, I want to thank Jose & crew for arranging the Ubuntu Open Week sessions.  Your community rally is most appreciated!
<beisner> And a great big THANK YOU to the community members who support and promote Ubuntu!
<beisner> We are fortunate to have a very strong community, with continually growing interest.
<beisner> The general purpose of Ubuntu OpenWeek is to provide information and answer questions about getting involved with the Ubuntu community.
<beisner> This Server segment of OpenWeek is all about how you can get involved in one of the most exciting things happening right now:
<beisner> adoption of open source in the enterprise, and more specifically, the continued proliferation of Ubuntu Server in the cloud space.
<beisner> Together, let's be a part of producing the awesome Ubuntu Server platform - which is in use today by many businesses and organizations of all sizes.
<beisner> You don't have to be a seasoned programmer, devops wizard or architect of clouds.
<beisner> Although, if you are, we certainly welcome your involvement!
 * beisner waves to the classroom-chat
<beisner> Glad to see so many folks present!
<beisner> o/  :)
<beisner> And so, super ninja programming skills are not necessarily required to help out.
<beisner> The daily (day-job) work that many system admins do while working with and deploying Ubuntu is actually quite ideal for involvement here.
<beisner> So, we want to encourage you to explore the many areas ... and find a place to get involved.
<beisner> ...At any time, please feel free to ask questions.
<beisner> As a reminder, please post your questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat in the following format:
<beisner> QUESTION: How are you today?
<beisner> I'd like to post some Server Team links for your reference, then we'll jump into a few things.
<beisner> The Server teamâs site:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/
<beisner> The Server Team blog:  http://www.ubuntuserver.org
<beisner> Itâs also worth keeping an eye on http://planet.ubuntu.com
<beisner> You can download current and past releases of Ubuntu Server here: http://releases.ubuntu.com/
<beisner> And hot of the press...
<beisner> The official Ubuntu Server Guide (14.04 Trusty Tahr):  https://help.ubuntu.com/14.04/serverguide/index.html
<beisner> Now, a quick overview of the stuff we do & the things we care for.
<beisner> Naturally, the 'traditional' suite of server packages are critical to a solid enterprise-grade server release.
<beisner> Apache, samba, bind, dhcpd, mysql, postgres, et al, are all mature projects.
<beisner> But even those good ol' staples continue to develop and progress.
<beisner> The complete list of packages that the server team looks after can be found on the wiki:  https://bugs.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-server/+packagebugs
<beisner> On a high level, perhaps some of the most notable undertakings of the server team are:  Openstack, MAAS, LXC (linux containers), uvtool, cloud-init, Ubuntu cloudimages ...
<beisner> See the ServerTeam Wiki for more detail of course.
<beisner> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/
<beisner> That encompasses and overlaps with other areas of focus such as JuJu charms for automating Openstack deployments (!).
<beisner> (Pretty cool stuff right there!)
<beisner> ARM architecture is also a biggie.  Most other distros aren't there yet.
<beisner> If you are specifically interested in being involved in any of these other areas, ping us on freenode irc #ubuntu-server.
<beisner> o/ hi rbasak
<beisner> Any one of these products could dovetail into a full session, so we won't detail those now.
<beisner> If there are specific questions, fire away!  Remember to preface all of your questions with  QUESTION:
<beisner> Next I'd like to touch on the release cycle.
<beisner> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Releases  shows the current and past releases
<beisner> As well as their lifecycles.
<beisner> I'd say most Server deployments stick to the LTS releases in production environments.
<beisner> The 5-year lifecycle is attractive to sysadmins and desktop users alike.
<beisner> But the interim releases are also very important as they are where we break new ground.
<beisner> FYI Long-Term Support info:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LTS
<beisner> For the dev folks out there, one way that you may be able to contribute is with SRUs.
<beisner> If you are a software developer, there are ongoing tasks like Stable Release Updates (SRUs) and backports ... preparing debdiffs, performing verification, etc., may be right up your alley.
<beisner> The SRU page:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates
<beisner> And the more advanced & involved front, for those who love devops (including puppet/chef/ansible/salt only shops):
<beisner> We'd love to see you run your own deployment tests against both stable -proposed pockets and against the current development release, detecting regressions, filing bugs, and reporting success.
<beisner> Again, freenode irc #ubuntu-server is the place to ping us if you are interested in these types of involvement.
<beisner> And now, other ways to get involved with Ubuntu Server...
<beisner> We recognize that not everyone is a software engineer.  That's ok!
<beisner> There are a lot of ways to contribute which don't necessarily involve coding.
<beisner> Specifically, the GettingInvolved page is a good resource:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/GettingInvolved
<beisner> There are other areas, such as documentation, web page, wiki, irc support, and more.  Later OpenWeek sessions will provide info on those valuable efforts of contribution as well.
<beisner> Let's talk a bit about server ISO testing.
<beisner> This is something everyone can do.
<beisner> Well, this piece really applies to Server and Desktop.
<beisner> I think that sometimes folks may run into an issue while installing a system via ISO, and find their own workaround, then move along to resuming their initial mission of bringing up a new box for a particular purpose.
<beisner> While we do have a lot of automated testing in place, I think it's also essential to have a good test base of the ISO
<beisner> builds.  Sometimes this manual ISO testing can reveal issues with scenarios that the automated testing may not.
<beisner> And so ...
<beisner> This is a call out to the community to help the server team by participating in periodic server ISO testing. :)
<beisner> The QA Tracker page is where you can learn more about ISO testing:  http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/
<beisner> You can run the current (or past) ISO builds against pre-defined test cases, then report your results in the QA Tracker.
<beisner> Most of these tests can be performed in a VM - on KVM, qemu, virtualbox, vmware, etc., or on bare metal hardware.
<beisner> Any bugs discovered and filed can be referenced, linking the Launchpad bug to the QA Tracker results.
<beisner> Anyone who is interested in participating can get started at http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/.
<beisner> Your involvement on this front is very much appreciated!  Well, on all fronts, really! ;)
<beisner> And I'd like to reiterate -
<beisner> For those deploying Ubuntu Server and the related packages in your day-to-day work:  You are in a *great* position to be able to contribute to the Ubuntu community.
 * beisner is out of breath.
<beisner> Questions, good!
<ClassBot> PaulW2U asked: I only have laptop hardware available at present. Is ISO testing on laptops useful?
<beisner> +1 rbasak - most of the server iso testing is hardware-independent.
<beisner> PaulW2U ^^
<beisner> My suggestion would be to use KVM or virtualbox to spin up the ISO and run through the test cases.
<beisner> Unless you're ok with paving the laptop altogether to install natively, which is also a good test.
<beisner> !Y
<beisner> !QUESTION / !Q
<beisner> Ok I can make servers do all sorts of cool things, but not ClassBot apparently.  ;)
<ClassBot> jincreator_ asked: Is iso testing automated, or run by humans(volunteers)?
 * beisner thanks Jose
<beisner> jincreator_:  There are some automated ISO tests, but not all of the testcases on the QA Tracker are currently automated.
<beisner> We are working on automating more of them, however.
<beisner> The broader server hardware base in the community at large is also something that is difficult to reproduce in a lab.
<beisner> (Although we do test on quite a wide range of hardware.)
<beisner> Good questions.  Thank you.
<beisner> Are there any more questions about ISO testing?  Or anything else so far?
<ClassBot> jincreator_ asked: Where can I see the automated ISO testing code?
<beisner> jincreator_:  I'm not sure if there is currently a public resource specific to iso automation, other than the individual pieces that one can use to make it happen.
<beisner> Such as...  preseeding:  https://help.ubuntu.com/14.04/installation-guide/amd64/apb.html
<beisner> And UTAH:  http://utah.readthedocs.org/en/latest/index.html
<beisner> That could be a great area to get involved, and I'd invite you to ping us on that.
<beisner> Another great question!
<beisner> Shall we jump into some of the basics of bug filing?
<beisner> I'm not going to dive too deep, but I do want to provide some information and guidance.
<beisner> I think it's safe to say that the health and stability of any open source ecosystem relies on bug reports, and the quality/completeness of those reports.
<beisner> One of my favs:
<beisner> "A problem well stated is a problem half-solved." -Charles Kettering
<beisner> By contrast, "a problem unreported is pretty difficult to solve."  -Me  =)
<beisner> If you're experience an issue, I'd say first search launchpad for an existing bug.
<beisner> https://bugs.launchpad.net/
<beisner> If there is indeed an existing bug, and you can provide additional diags, insight or info, please do so.
<beisner> This may help to triage the bug.
<beisner> But if you find that the problem, supported by research of support, lists, irc, manpages, docs, etc., is unexpected behavior:  please do file a bug.
<beisner> Some folks may be apprehensive about filing bugs ... but there is no shame in ending up with a NotABug or Invalid.
<beisner> Here are some good resources on reporting bugs:
<beisner> Reporting bugs in Ubuntu Server:  https://help.ubuntu.com/14.04/serverguide/reporting-bugs.html
<beisner> General info and instructions regarding Bug Filing:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/
<beisner> General bug filing guidelines:  https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ReportingBugs
<beisner> Plug:  For more detail about QA-centric activities and the Quality Team, I invite you to join balloons right here on Wed 23 Apr @ 1800UTC.
<beisner> Are there any questions before we move on?
<beisner> Moving on - are there any LUG nuts in the house? \o/
<beisner> There are many local and regional Linux User Groups out there - and some of them focus on Linux server use.
<beisner> We are definitely interested in participating in these types of groups and events.
<beisner> As you probably know, we have team members all across the US and around the world.
<beisner> Whether it's Q&A about Ubuntu Server, general banter or a more official presentation or demo...
<beisner> Please let your LUG know that we also want to be a part of your community.
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<beisner> In-person meet ups, virtual hangouts, and ongoing participation, etc.
<beisner> Who knows, it may even involve pizza!
<beisner> Feel free to reach out on #ubuntu-server or ping me, gaughen or any of the Ubuntu Server Team.
<beisner> I want to make sure we leave time to address any other questions out there.
<beisner> Ok, no ?s at the moment.
<beisner> Wrapping up -
<beisner> You, the community are a very important partner in keeping Ubuntu Server a very high-quality platform of choice.
<beisner> On behalf of the Ubuntu Server Team:  one more THANKS for your support of this awesome distro.
<beisner> Thank you for joining us for this session from the Ubuntu Server team.
<beisner> IRC:  #ubuntu-server
<beisner> Wiki:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<beisner> And now, I'd like to wrap up with a shameless recruit plug!
<beisner> Canonical is always looking for the best minds to join us in bringing Ubuntu to the world.
<beisner> http://www.canonical.com/careers
<beisner> We have just a few minutes left for questions.
<beisner> Thanks again for attending Ubuntu OpenWeek!
<beisner> Check out https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek for the full schedule and other useful links.
<beisner> Bye all.  See you around!
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Ubuntu Documentation Team - Instructors: pleia2
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2014/04/22/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<pleia2> hi everyone!
<pleia2> quick reminder, if you have any questions during the session please ask them in #ubuntu-classroom-chat with the prefix QUESTION: so the bot can pick it up
<pleia2> my name is Elizabeth K. Joseph and I'm a member of the Ubuntu Documentation team
<pleia2> today I'm here to give an overview of the places where you can get involved with documentation in the Ubuntu community
<pleia2> so let's dive right in :)
<pleia2> first up, we have the Desktop Documentation
<pleia2> the Desktop docs are shipped on every Ubuntu Desktop install, they're what you'll find when you search for help on your desktop
<pleia2> they're also published to help.ubuntu.com, so the latest official desktop docs can be found here: https://help.ubuntu.com/14.04/ubuntu-help/index.html
<pleia2> this makes them pretty important to get right, and since everyone who works on documentation in Ubuntu is an unpaid volunteer, we could always use the help with all aspects
<pleia2> additionally, the team commits to updating this documentation every cycle, so this means that careful review of the full documentation is done every 6 months and updated based on changes, new features, etc in the release
<pleia2> on the technical side, the documentation is written in a markup language called "Mallard" (the same as what GNOME uses)
<pleia2> you can learn more about Mallard here: http://projectmallard.org/
<pleia2> the source for the documentation can be found at lp:ubuntu-docs which can be accessed via the revision control system bazaar (bzr)
<pleia2> a step by step walkthrough of how to contribute can be found here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/UbuntuDesktopGuide
<pleia2> this includes the packages you need to install, some tips for editing documents and how to actually submit your changes via bzr for review
<pleia2> all changes made to the desktop guide are reviewd by an admin on the documentation team before being committed
<pleia2> any questions about Ubuntu desktop documentation?
<pleia2> ok, if you think of any, feel free to ask at any time :)
<pleia2> next up we have Server Documentation
<pleia2> this documentation is specific to servers running Ubuntu and is separate from the desktop documentation
<pleia2> unlike the Desktop documentation, this team is now only committed to releasing a new guide for each LTS release, so every 2 years (with "occasional" updates made available between LTSs)
<pleia2> this is because most folks who are running servers are only interested in the LTS versions for their servers (I admit, this is what I do too)
<pleia2> server docs are not shipped with installed versions of Ubuntu server and instead are only published on help.ubuntu.com
<pleia2> they're available there as html and pdf as you can see in the latest release here: https://help.ubuntu.com/14.04/index.html
<pleia2> also unlike the desktop docs, these docs are written in DocBook (not Mallard), and the source is also available via bzr at lp:serverguide
<pleia2> DocBook is a pretty standard tool for writing documentation in open source projects, so many folks are already familiar with it, but if you've never used it you can learn more at http://www.docbook.org/
<pleia2> the step by step walkthrough of how to contribute to server documentation is available here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/UbuntuServerGuide
<pleia2> again, like the desktop guide this tells you what you need installed, how to submit revisions, etc
<ClassBot> knome asked: Why is there two different ways of writing documentation. Shouldn't it be standardized?
<pleia2> it's actually a question from captine, good question!
<pleia2> once upon a time, both sets of documentation were written in DocBook
<pleia2> then the GNOME project switched to using Mallard, and since the Ubuntu documentation drew heavily from their documentation the desktop team decided to switch to Mallard so they wouldn't need to rewrite all the markup
<pleia2> there isn't actually a whole lot of overlap between Desktop and Server documentation folks, so it hasn't mattered much, and the server team is even talking about switching to something else entirely too
<pleia2> now, beyond these "official" documentation types in the core Docuemtation team, we also have docuementation that's maintained on the wiki
<pleia2> everything prefixed with /community on help.ubuntu.com is actually a wiki, so starting here: https://help.ubuntu.com/community
<pleia2> this can be edited by anyone in the community, at any time, and there are no set deadlines or freezes for when it should be completed
<pleia2> as such, it's a much more "living" document that the community maintains, and while there is a team to keep an eye on things (and we need help here), it's not strictly updated every cycle like other forms of documentation
<pleia2> it also means you will often find outdated pages and ones that only work with specific versions of Ubuntu, but there is still a lot of valuable information on the wiki
<pleia2> it's also not shipped with Ubuntu or anything, so it's more of an online reference
<pleia2> to get started working with this, all you need is a web browser and a launchpad account :) if you have any account trouble, we put together this page: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiGuide/Registration
<pleia2> there are sometimes sync up issues between ubuntu single sign on and launchpad when it comes to logging into the wiki, making it so even when you can log in you still can't edit
<pleia2> I have a ticket open with Canonical about this, so hopefully it won't last forever, since it does confuse newcomers
<pleia2> once you're able to log in and edit pages, see here for actually getting started: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Wiki
<pleia2> wiki syntax is easier to learn than DocBook or Mallard, so a lot of folks enjoy starting here
<ClassBot> captine asked: I assume when you say there are some people overseeing the wiki docs, you mean there is some sort of review prior to the update being applied?
<pleia2> not prior to, and sometimes no formal review ever, I'll get to that in a moment
<pleia2> it's got a lower barrier to entry than the official docs that are shipped since there is little formal review process for changes (people may subscribe to certain pages to keep an eye on them, but they don't approve your changes)
<pleia2> the wiki also allows you to create new articles for things that aren't documented, and improve existing documents immediately when you find errors
<pleia2> the team really likes leveraging the wiki for extended documentation rather than adding the maintenance burden to the official docs (which I mentioned, we commit to updating every cycle)
<pleia2> we also use a tagging system on the wiki to help newcomers find things to work on, you can browse all the tags here: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Tag
<pleia2> these tags allow you to quickly find pages that people have marked as needing content cleanup, expansion or contraction, updating for new releases and more
<pleia2> any questions about the help wiki?
<pleia2> I also want to mention that the Ubuntu community also has wiki.ubuntu.com - which is not for user documentation, this tends to be confusing for a lot of people
<pleia2> it's actually a teams wiki that should be used by community members for project coordination and how-tos related to getting involved with their projects
<ClassBot> knome asked: Should I ask somebody if i can make an edit or just go for it?
<pleia2> you should just go for it :)
<pleia2> if the page has someone who is gardening it, they will keep an eye on changes, in general wikis work pretty well because there is this peer review and most people mean well when they edit
<pleia2> I haven't yet seen an edit war on a community help page, and if there ever is an issue it can be discussed on our mailing list: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-doc or on irc in #ubuntu-doc
<pleia2> alright, that's the wiki!
<pleia2> finally, there's also the Ubuntu Manual project
<pleia2> they're not strictly part of the Documenation team, but we have some staff overlap and we all pretty much work together
<pleia2> the work the Ubuntu Manual does is to present a low-cost (or free pdf) printable Ubuntu book for users, their site is at http://ubuntu-manual.org/
<pleia2> it's structured differently than the official desktop documentation because it's in book form, but the manual covers similar topics
<pleia2> and like for the desktop guide, the manual team has also been committed to releasing every cycle
<pleia2> the Manual is written in LaTeX markup (rather than Mallard or Docbook) and then exported to pdf and to online book print shops in whatever format they require
<pleia2> they selected this because it can be a bit easier to edit once the general structure is in place than the other two options
<pleia2> but they also use bzr to track the source for these documents
<pleia2> the source is here: lp:ubuntu-manual and this page describes how to get it: http://ubuntu-manual.org/getinvolved/authors#download-code
<ClassBot> DS_McGuire_ asked: I have just had a look around https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuEyeCandy for example. Most of it (if not all of it is out of date). Who's responsibility is it to keep these updated? Ours or Canonical's?
<pleia2> Canonical doesn't pay anyone to work on any of this documentation, so it's all a community effort and our responsibility
<pleia2> I imagine you'll find a lot of pages like that on the wiki, we really need a volunteers to help out :)
<pleia2> the notes on the top are the Tags I mentioned, which means that we know that it's outdated and are just waiting for someone to help clean it up
<ClassBot> captine asked: If not available, could a dashboard be created that pulls the wiki page and orders it by last updated date?  This could help the community to focus some efforts on pages that are likely to be outdated?
<pleia2> massive searches like that are really hard because it's a large wiki and it often times out when you try to do such queries
<pleia2> but it's certainly something that can be discussed with the team to help make it easier for folks to contribute
<pleia2> so, back to Ubuntu Manual
<pleia2> one of the things the Manual team did early on was work to make it as easy as possible for contributors can help out, as you can see from their nice, clean get involved page: http://ubuntu-manual.org/getinvolved
<pleia2> they define different roles for what folks may be interested, from writing to proof reading
<pleia2> they also put a lot of effort into translations and having good design, so they need those folks too :)
<pleia2> so that's all the documentation that's focused on Ubuntu specifically - it's a lot! and we have a pretty small team for all of these, and we're friendly, so please come chat with us or join our mailing list if you want to help out
<pleia2> beyond that, some of the flavors of Ubuntu maintain their own documentation too
<pleia2> Xubuntu, for instance, has documentation that's written in DocBook and also lives on launchpad at lp:xubuntu-docs
<pleia2> these documentation teams run pretty independently from Ubuntu, so they can choose their tools, timeline (each cycle, only for LTS) and publishing mechanisms (ship with desktop, or just publish somewhere online)
<ClassBot> knome asked: where can i chat with you?
<pleia2> we have a mailing list: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-doc or on irc in #ubuntu-doc
<pleia2> if it's related to the manual, they have #ubuntu-manual and a mailing list associated with their launchpad team: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual
<pleia2> back to flavors, for Xubuntu for instance the documentation is published on http://docs.xubuntu.org/ and shipped with each release
<pleia2> other flavors may either rely upon upstream (lubuntu uses lxde documentation), or have minimal documentation for specific tasks either on the wiki or on their website, like Edubuntu: https://edubuntu.org/documentation
<pleia2> so participating in upstream documentation (documenation for GNOME, Xfce, lxde) is highly recommended as well as they also rely heavily (or exclusvely) on volunteers, so documentation everywhere always needs help from the community :)
<pleia2> or any of the default applications used in Ubuntu, documentation for LibreOffice, Firefox, all of this gets shipped with Ubuntu
<pleia2> and that's pretty much all I had! any more questins?
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<ClassBot> captine asked: Will a stream be created for touch documentation?  Esp for installing it on hardware that it doesnt ship on by default etc
<pleia2> so afaik currently the only documentation is developer-oriented and lives over on the other wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Touch
<pleia2> there haven't been any efforts to work with the documentation team on further documentation, so I'm not sure what the plans are
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: [ON AIR] Getting Acquainted with the Juju Review Queue and Process - Instructors: lazyPower
<jose> thanks pleia2! next session will be livestreamed at ubuntuonair.com, and questions will go at #ubuntu-classroom-chat as usual :)
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2014/04/22/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || No Sessions Currently in Progress
#ubuntu-classroom 2014-04-23
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Ubuntu Women Project - Instructors: pleia2, belkinsa
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2014/04/23/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<pleia2> hi everyone, welcome to day two of Ubuntu Open Week :) full schedule for today can be found here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek#The_Timetable
<pleia2> first up, we have a session about the Ubuntu Women Project
<pleia2> my name is Elizabeth K. Joseph. I currently work for HP and am tasked with working on the OpenStack Infrastructure team
<pleia2> here in the Ubuntu world, among other things, I'm a member of the Ubuntu Community Council and one the quartet of leaders for the Ubuntu Women project along with Cheri Francis, Flavia Weisghizzi and Silvia Bindelli
<pleia2> joining me today for this session is Svetlana Belkin (belkinsa) who will be discussing some of our current programs
<belkinsa> o/ everyone!
<pleia2> :)
<pleia2> if anyone has any questions during this session, please speak up at any time, in #ubuntu-classroom-chat you can do a question like:
<pleia2> QUESTION: Do you like penguins?
<pleia2> and we'll be able to pull it over here via ClassBot to answer it
<pleia2> as a bit of history, the Ubuntu Women project was started in 2005 and formalized in 2006 (around when I got involved) by folks (women and men) who were interested in helping to get more women using and contributing to Ubuntu
<pleia2> continuing efforts have been spurred on by continued gender imbalance in open source, so loosely we work to:
<pleia2> * reach out to women in our community or interested in joining and offer help to get involved, either through mentoring or better getting involved tools
<pleia2> * give suggestions to current community members about how they can encourage higher female participation (or, at the very least, not actively drive them away)
<pleia2> * work on programs to raise the profile of potential role models already within our community (having role models has proven to be a very important part of increasing involvement)
<pleia2> * provide a safe environment where people can feel free to discuss problems or concerns they have about the community related to gender issues
<pleia2> we're happy to say that when we were last tracking it, we were showing 5% of Ubuntu Members as women, which is higher than the general open source world where statistics range from 1-4%
<pleia2> but obviously 5% isn't great either :) we want a lot more women joining Ubuntu and technology in general, so our efforts continue
<pleia2> logistically, we primarily communicate on our mailing list: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-women (please sign up to post, so our moderators have less work :))
<pleia2> and in IRC, in an unlogged channel at #ubuntu-women and our logged channel where we have meetings at #ubuntu-women-project and members can discuss things that they wish to have logged
<pleia2> now, before we get into talking about some of our current projects, I have 2 things this session is not about, but may be useful resources for those interested
<pleia2> 1. We won't be justifying the existence of the Ubuntu Women Project or explaining basic feminism topics
<pleia2> this is open source! Members of the project feel it is valuable and wish to spend their time on it, if you are interested in the project please join us! and if not, work on something else :)
<pleia2> if you are interested in the language of feminism, particularly as it relates to open source communities, to understand why we do what we do, I recommend starting with: http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Feminism_101
<pleia2> 2. We won't be rehashing the challenges that many women face in open source, tech or geek communities in general, or incidents that have occurred, it's not constructive for this space and these are already well-documented in many places, including:
<pleia2> http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline_of_incidents
<pleia2> http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Issues
<pleia2> now, recent projects and plans for the future!
<pleia2> like many more development-focused teams, we participate in the Summits every 6 months and put together a blueprint for what we wish to work on for that cycle, you can check out our finished blueprint for trusty here:
<pleia2> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu-women.org/+spec/community-1311-ubuntu-women
<pleia2> through these blueprints everyone on the team is aware of priorities and committments for the cycle so everyone can stay on the same page
<pleia2> we also host monthly meetings, whether we have an agenda or not, to check in on blueprint items and make sure everyone is on track and have the help they need to complete their tasks
<pleia2> using this system has really helped our team keep momentum through the past couple years, so a huge thank you to everyone who participates in these summit sessions and/or monthly meetings :)
<pleia2> we'll be having a session at the next summit too, coming up in June, details to be announced on our mailing list when our session is scheduled
<pleia2> now, looking back to last year on some of our work to help shape direction, we ran a survey encouraging folks to give us feedback on the work the project was doing, anonymous results were made available:
<pleia2> http://blog.ubuntu-women.org/2013/09/ubuntu-women-survey-2013-results-part-1/
<pleia2> http://blog.ubuntu-women.org/2013/10/ubuntu-women-survey-2013-results-part-2/
<pleia2> we were really impressed with the response to the survey, it was shared pretty widely and we got responses from a bunch of folks who hadn't heard of us before, so the feedback was diverse
<pleia2> as a result of feedback in this survey, we've redoubled our efforts to work on our Career Days sessions so women in our community get exposure to careers where Open Source is a valueable skill
<pleia2> Career Days are the brain child of Cheri Francis and we've been tracking our sessions here: http://wiki.ubuntu-women.org/CareerDays
<pleia2> most recently we had Laura Czajkowski come to talk about her technical career and current position as EMEA Community Manager for MongoDB, it was really exciting to hear how her technical background and open source work has assisted her in this new, more community-focused role
<pleia2> if anyone is interested in talking about their career with us during a Career Day, please let me know!
<pleia2> while we're happy to have women showcase their careers (helps us grow the number of female role models), the point of this project is to show a diverse set of professions and skills, so we'd be happy to have anyone :)
<pleia2> we also decided to increase the work we're doing to help women get involved in the community, with the GetInvolved Wiki Page Improvement and Project Harvest, which belkinsa will talk about now after introducing herself
<belkinsa> Before I start, are there any questions for pleia2?
<pleia2> if you think of anything, feel free to ask at any time (or at the end :))
<belkinsa> Indeed, we are always open for questions during our session.
<belkinsa> Okay, moving on...
<belkinsa> Allow me to introduce myself...
<belkinsa> I'm Svetlana Belkin (belkinsa) and I'm a Ubuntu Community Member that focuses on get people involved with Ubuntu, mainly in the Ubuntu Women team.
<belkinsa> I'm the driver of two projects within the team.
<belkinsa> The first is the GIWPI project.
<belkinsa> And it stands for GetInvolved Wiki Page Improvement
<belkinsa>  II. This project aims to improve that wiki page in order to get more people to get involved with Ubuntu and the Ubuntu Women Project
<belkinsa> - II.
<belkinsa> The project's page is here: http://wiki.ubuntu-women.org/GIWPI
<belkinsa> It is almost done minus the quiz that we, as a team, have been working on that will allow users to answer some questions and based on the answers they will be suggested a team where they can be involved in.
<belkinsa> I don't have the link to the quiz, but maybe we will have it out for testing soon.
<belkinsa> There is also a sub project that aims to collect  the stories of Ubuntu Women members and how they got involved with Ubuntu and the Ubuntu community and it's called  V. WhatPeopleAreDoing
<belkinsa> Link to the page: http://wiki.ubuntu-women.org/WhatPeopleAreDoing
<belkinsa> pleia2 just supplied me the Italian version of the quiz which uses the same code as our English version: http://www.ubuntu-it.org/comunita/orientamento
<belkinsa> Thanks pleia2.
<belkinsa> Going back to the WhatPeopleAreDoing topic, I wanted to add that  you can submit one yourself if you have the wiki editing skills or e-mail me <belkinsa@ubuntu.com>
<belkinsa> Any questions before I move on to my next topic?
<belkinsa> Okay, moving on...
<belkinsa> The next and final project that I'm a driver of is the  ProjectHarvest: http://wiki.ubuntu-women.org/ProjectHarvest
<belkinsa> Harvest allows users to find small tasks for larger projects in the Ubuntu community
<belkinsa>  The team is doing the testing phase that will hopefully allow Harvest to be opened up for the Ubuntu community and non-Ubuntu Women members
<belkinsa>  Feedback is still welcomed and in a month or so, the feedback will be submitted to dholbach the driver of that project
<belkinsa> These are the two projects that I drive and hopefully these two can help more women (and men!) to be involved with Ubuntu.
<belkinsa> Thank you.
 * belkinsa takes a bow
<pleia2> thanks belkinsa!
<pleia2> any questions?
<pleia2> we'll be around for the remainder of the time if anyone things of anything
<ClassBot> elfy asked: Any plans to try and get more women involved with flavours?
<pleia2> great question :) right now our roadmap doesn't have that on our list, but we certainly do have a lot of folks on our team who represent other flavors and could probably help with this
<pleia2> maybe it could even be something added to our quiz, do you use "Ubuntu, Xubuntu, Kubuntu..."
<belkinsa> Indeed that can work and also maybe have the GetInvolved page have some links to the other favours team pages.
<belkinsa> Sorry for the bad English there.  ;)
 * pleia2 nods
<belkinsa> Any other questions?
<belkinsa> Oh, this is our team's wiki/website: http://wiki.ubuntu-women.org/
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<pleia2> thanks for coming everyone :)
<pleia2> the next session will be On Air, which means they're using Google Hangouts to broadcast a video-based session
<pleia2> popey will share the link to join when it begins :)
<belkinsa> Link to the page: http://ubuntuonair.com/
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: [ON AIR!] Get Started Contributing to Ubuntu Core Apps - Instructors: popey
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2014/04/23/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<popey> pleia2: it's at http://ubuntuonair.com/ â»
<pleia2> popey: it's not showing up, do you have a direct link that you can give to folks?
<pleia2> ok, the live link is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2mFNRRfPVo
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: [ON AIR!] Get Started Contributing to Ubuntu Core Apps - Instructors: popey | Session live at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2mFNRRfPVo
<popey> pleia2: should be fixed now
<popey> sorry about that
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Ubuntu Kernel Team - Instructors: jsalisbury
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2014/04/23/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<jsalisbury> Hello Everyone o/
<jsalisbury> Hello. My name is Joe Salisbury. I am a member of the Kernel Team at Canonical.
<jsalisbury> Today, I'll be talking about kernel bug triage, the different Importance and Status fields for a bug and some typical debugging tasks commonly requested when triaging a bug.
<jsalisbury> Questions should be asked on the #ubuntu-classroom-chat channel. If you want to ask a question, write it there, and precede it with 'QUESTION:'. For example:
<jsalisbury> QUESTION: What is an Upstream kernel?
<jsalisbury> First, for details about the Ubuntu kernel, the top level Kernel wiki page can be found at:
<jsalisbury> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kernel
<jsalisbury> There is also a page dedicated to kernel bug triage, which can be found at:
<jsalisbury> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kernel/BugTriage
<jsalisbury> The kernel bug triage page is a great place to start if interested in learning more about triaging kernel bugs.
<jsalisbury> The Ubuntu Linux Kernel has quite a large number for bugs opened against it.  Several thousand as of today.  A full list of bugs can be seen at:
<jsalisbury> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux
<jsalisbury> I generally focus on triaging and escalating bugs opened against the current development kernel.
<jsalisbury> That's not to say there is no focus on the stable kernels.
<jsalisbury> I review and triage each and every kernel bug reported, which could be against the current development kernel or any of the prior supported stable kernels.
<jsalisbury> The priority with the development kernel is to identify bugs and hit them hard and fast, so we can fix as many issues as possible, before release.
<jsalisbury> On the other hand, stable kernel bugs can take longer to fix.  This is because a patch for a bug must go through the Stable Release Update process:
<jsalisbury> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/StableHandbook/StableProcess
<jsalisbury> Details on stable kernels can be found here:
<jsalisbury> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kernel/Handbook/Stable
<jsalisbury> To assist with the large number of kernel bugs reported, the kernel team has developed bug 'Bots' to review each new bug, and ensure all the required apport logs are attached.
<jsalisbury> If all the information is there the bug Status is changed from 'New' to 'Confirmed'.  If the bug is missing the apport logs, the bug Status is set to 'Incomplete' and a request for the logs is posted to the bug.
<jsalisbury> After the bot sets the bug to 'Confirmed', I will review the bug.  Based on the bug description, I will see if the bug is similar to recent bugs and may be a duplicate.
<jsalisbury> I will also determine what kernel subsystem the bug affects.  The bug might be specific to USB, wifi, graphics, suspend/resume, etc.
<jsalisbury> I will ask subsystem specific questions to collect that specific data.
<jsalisbury> The following wiki has some pages on specific debugging by subsystem:
<jsalisbury> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kernel/Debugging
<jsalisbury> Once a bug has all the needed information, I will usually ask that the latest Mainline kernel is tested and then set the bug to Incomplete, until the testing is done.  The latest Mainline kernel is the kernel that is currently being developed upstream, and is considered Linus' tree.
<jsalisbury> The reason for testing this kernel is to see if the bug is already fixed upstream.  If it is, usually the current Ubuntu devlelopmt kernel will get this fix when it is rebased to the latest Mainline kernel.
<jsalisbury> Testing the Mainline kernel will also tell us if the bug exists upstream.  If the bug does exist upstream, we like to ask the Bug Reporter to open a bug with upstream, so the issue is known to the upstream Developers as well.
<jsalisbury> There is a wiki that describes how to report a bug upstream here:
<jsalisbury> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Upstream/kernel
<jsalisbury> We also ask for testing of the Mainline kernel when a bug is reported against a stable kernel.  For the same reason it will tell us if the bug is already fixed.
<jsalisbury> However, just because a bug is fixed upstream, doesn't mean a stable kernel will ever get that fix.
<jsalisbury> Depending on the bug, we may also ask for testing of the latest upstream stable kernel.
<jsalisbury> For example, Precise is based on the 3.2 kernel.  Currently Precise has all the upstream updates up to 3.2.55
<jsalisbury> However, the latest upstream 3.2 stable kernel is 3.2.57.  Eventually Precise will get the 3.2.57 updates, so it is beneficial to know if the bug is already fixed there.
<jsalisbury> If it is, we usually just need to wait until the bug is fixed when the release gets those upstream updates.
<jsalisbury> As mentioned earlier, there may be a case when a bug is fixed in Mainline, but is not fixed in the latest upstream stable kernel for a release.
<jsalisbury> This can happen when a patch is submitted upstream, but does not include the Cc to the upstream stable kernel.
<jsalisbury> If this is the case, I will perform what is called a "Reverse" kernel bisect.  This debugging process is used to identify a patch upstream that fixes a specific bug.
<jsalisbury> Before going down the debugging of a specific type of bug, lets step back to the bug triage flow.
<jsalisbury> First a bot checks for the apport logs, then the bug is reviewed and a request is made to test the latest Mainline kernel.
<jsalisbury> The next thing we need to know is if this bug is a regression or not.
<jsalisbury> It a bug is not a regression, it has all the apport logs, and testing of the Mainline kernel does not fix the bug, the bug status is set to "Triaged".
<jsalisbury> If the bug is a regression, we can perform a kernel bisect to identify the commit that introduced the bug.
<jsalisbury> The steps to perform a bisect can be found at:
<jsalisbury> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kernel/KernelBisection
<jsalisbury> The entire details of a kernel bisect can take some time, so it may be best for another session at some point.  But I'll give a summary.
<jsalisbury> Basically we identify the last kernel version that did not have the bug and the first kernel version that did have the bug.
<jsalisbury> Once we have these two versions, We provide these two version numbers into git bisect.  Git then tells us a kernel commit that is about halfway between these two versions.
<jsalisbury> Using this information, I build a test kernel up to this commit and ask the bug reporter to test it.
<jsalisbury> Based on the test results, I tell git whether or not the kernel exhibited the bug.
<jsalisbury> Git will then spit out the next commit id(SHA1), which is again half way in between the last good and first bad commit.
<jsalisbury> I then build another test kernel, ask for it to be tested, and feed the result back into git.
<jsalisbury> Eventually this process will yield the SHA1 of the patch that introduced the regression.
<jsalisbury> Then next step is determined by the patch/commit that introduced the regression.
<jsalisbury> The bug can be fixed by creating a new patch.  The patch that introduced the regression can be reverted and/or upstream will be contacted to get it fixed upstream as well.
<jsalisbury> Like I mentioned earlier there is also a "Reverse" bisect.  A reverse bisect is used to identify a commit in the upstream kernel that fixes a bug.
<jsalisbury> This is basically the same process as a standard bisect, but git is told the opposite of the testing results.
<jsalisbury> Eventually though the same process, git will report the SHA1 of the patch that fixes the bug.
<jsalisbury> Depending on the patch, the fix will then be cherry-picked or backported and an SRU request submitted.
<jsalisbury> Whether or not a bisect or reverse bisect is performed, depends on the bug.
<jsalisbury> Usually the priority of the bug and/or the number of people affected will help decide.
<jsalisbury> If you want to learn more details about git, there is a wiki page at:
<jsalisbury> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Git
<jsalisbury> To track bugs, the kernel team created a variety of reports, which can be found at:
<jsalisbury> http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/kernel-bugs/reports/index.html
<jsalisbury> There is a report for all the supported stable releases, CVE's, bugs that are fixed upstream and a "Hot List".
<jsalisbury> The "Hot List" or Priority bug list is used to track important bugs and get them on the kernel developers radar.
<jsalisbury> That's a quick overview of kernel team bug triage.
<jsalisbury> I hope it was not too high level :-)
<jsalisbury> At this point, I'd like to open it up for questions.
<jsalisbury> Again, questions should be asked on the #ubuntu-classroom-chat channel. If you want to ask a question, write it there, and precede it with 'QUESTION:'
<jsalisbury> Well, there does not seem to be any questions at this point.
<jsalisbury> Again, if your interested in getting involved in kernel bug triage, the best place to start is by reviewing the wiki:
<jsalisbury> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kernel/BugTriage
<jsalisbury> I'm generally available on the Freenode channel #ubuntu-kernel
<jsalisbury> Feel free to ping me there if you have kernel or kernel bug related questions.
<jsalisbury> We have about 10 minutes left, so feel free to ask any Kernel related questions.
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<jsalisbury> If there are no other questions, I'll wrap up the session at this point.
<jsalisbury> Thanks everyone for attending, and thanks to our Community for making Ubuntu so great!
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Ubuntu Quality Team - Instructors: balloons
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2014/04/23/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<balloons> Hello everyone!
<balloons> Welcome to the ubuntu quality team session. My name is Nicholas Skaggs and I'm the QA Community Coordinator. Thanks for attending (or reading this log later!)!
<balloons> This session is intended to introduce you to what the quality team does, some of the sites and tools utilized by the team, as well as how you can join and participate.
<balloons> You may ask questions at any point.. Just be sure to utilize the #ubuntu-classroom-chat channel. Prefix your question with QUESTION: to ensure I see it.
<balloons> Everyone ready?
<balloons> So first I'm going to give a brief overview of what quality means and how the team works. Next, I'll talk about the different roles and activities we perform as a team. Along the way, we'll talk about the tools we use as well. Finally, we'll talk about how you can get involved and then do a Q & A.
<balloons> So what does quality look like in ubuntu? What does it mean really?
<balloons> I recently wrote a post that explains gives you an overview of what QA looks like inside of ubuntu, and where we as a community fit. http://www.theorangenotebook.com/2014/03/a-simple-look-at-testing-within-ubuntu.html.
<balloons> Give it a read to help you understand more about the big picture of what is going on.
<balloons> Simply put, we help write the tests that are automatically run against each image, in addition to providing manual verification and feedback. On top of that, we also help triage bugs and perform exploratory tests to discover things that our automated tests don't cover.
<balloons> So we as a community plug in across the board; writing tests, tools and providing test results ;-)
<balloons> We help ensure everyone's work in ubuntu is presented in the best possible way. We want to make sure things 'just work', and the culmination of work that results in the ubuntu image to be the best it can be.
<balloons> To help accomplish this, we've defined several different roles on the team, each with a slightly different focus. Check out the roles on this page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Roles.
<balloons> The roles help divide and define the different activities and things going on inside the realm of quality within ubuntu. As you can see there are roles for different skills and different skill levels
<balloons> If you are new to the team, check out the tester role as a great way to move into helping out. Testers run the development version of ubuntu, and test new apps and code as it comes out. They also provide test results for milestones.
<balloons> It's a very fun role.. Finding bugs, and helping track down problems is good fun! Plus, you get to see and experience the new stuff before everyone else.
<balloons> Living on the edge has it's benefits and you will certainly grow in knowledge of ubuntu
<balloons> Alternatively if you are unable to run the development release, the bug triager role allows you to help test stable updates and do bug triaging using a stable release (LTS or not) of ubuntu.
<balloons> This is a handy role for those who want to be involved, but can't commit to living on the edge.
<balloons> You can have a large impact in this role, helping to make sure the stable releases work well for everyone (you too!)
<balloons> The final 2 roles are for folks interested in creating tools and testcases for ubuntu. Test writers write both manual and automated tests -- you don't have to be a programmer to write a manual testcase ;-)
<balloons> Writing and maintaining our manual tests can be done by anyone who is able to break down things into instructions and write in english. The syntax is easy to learn, and we can help you understand how to propose your tests so they are accepted. It's a nice way to ease yourself into future development work, or just contribute in a technical way
<balloons> Finally, developers work on the tools we use, and as such programming knowledge (and/or a desire to learn) is required.
<balloons> If you aspire to any of the roles, we are here to help, so don't be overwhelmed
<balloons> Ok, so let's talk a little about what we do overall as a team during the cycle
<balloons> During the course of the cycle, we as a team participate by providing test results for the packages as they are undergoing development. If we find a bug, we'll also report and file it.
<balloons> In addition, we develop testcases, best practices and even tools to help us test more effectively
<balloons> Our goal is to be more confident and comfortable about what is being shipped as ubuntu. We want things to work, and we want to have tested as much as possible verifying that indeed they do work :-)
<balloons> Our testing is done via several avenues. I'll describe each briefly.
<balloons> The first thing we encourage is dogfooding the development version of ubuntu. This includes the phablet images as well if you have the hardware to do so ;-)
<balloons> Simply install or upgrade to the development release and use it as a regular machine. By attempting to work and perform tasks under the development version you may encounter a bug.
<balloons> Your usage of the development version represents a broad and unique testcase. Since you use the software on a regular basis you can also catch regressions and watch new features land.
<balloons> Dogfooding is a very fun part of what we do, and it's my ecommendation for getting started with quality.
<balloons> You can find out more about doing this under the tester role page (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Roles/Tester) via
<balloons> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Roles/Tester#Exploratory_Testing
<balloons> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/DevelopmentInstall
<balloons> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/TouchTesting
<balloons> Running the development version of ubuntu or your favorite flavor is a wonderful experience and with a little knowledge can be done by anyone wishing to get started
<balloons> I encourage those of you wanting to jump in to start here, as I said.
<balloons> Ok, so another activity we participate in is a call for testing.
<balloons> This is a call to test a specific piece of software, with an accompanying set of tests and instructions for testing.  These calls generally occur as milestones for testing.
<balloons> We take specific bits of software and run tests against them looking for functionality and regressions. You will see these announced on the mailing list, and scheduled on the calendar: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Calendar
<balloons> So for instance, we as a community just helped in releasing trusty by participating in the milestone for the final images. We used the qatracker to provide the test cases (that we maintain as a team) and logged our results against the tool
<balloons> These milestones happen every cycle, but others may occur as well to test specific software
<balloons> Now, what is the qatracker you may ask?
<balloons> The qatracker is where we submit the test results and get information needed to complete the test, such as the testcase and installation instructions.
<balloons> It's a tool developed specifically for the purpose of coordinating our testing
<balloons> Checkout the wiki page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/QATracker
<balloons> There are actually several qatracker instances each geared towards testing different things;
<balloons> http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com is used to report results for image testing
<balloons> http://packages.qa.ubuntu.com is used to report results for package testing
<balloons> http://laptop.qa.ubuntu.com is used for laptop/hardware testing
<balloons> The tracker helps us work together as a team to perform these testing activities. The wiki page has more details about how it works and provides links to walkthroughs to help you get started submitting results. You'll also find links at the top of each of the trackers that explain how to use them and help you get started.
<balloons> It's important that we get results for testing events, as positive results are just as useful as failures. Positive results allow us to feel confident in shipping things. Really the worst scenario isn't negative results, but a lack of test results
<balloons> This is why a group of folks testing is a useful thing
<balloons> The corner cases of when something works for me, but not for you is revealed.
<balloons> So, we've covered contributing test results, and running the development release and contributing bug reports. Let's talk now about contributing tests themselves
<balloons> The tests you see on the qatracker, and within the ci dashboard (which we'll speak more about in a moment) are a part of the output of our team's work.
<balloons> You can help contribute to the testsuite by writing new tests or helping maintain the current ones
<balloons> You can contribute both manual and automated testcases to ubuntu.
<balloons> Manual testcases are intended to be run by human testers,  while the automated testcases can be run by a machine.
<balloons> As a team, we maintain two projects the Ubuntu Manual Tests (https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual-tests/) and the Ubuntu Autopilot Tests (https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-autopilot-tests/) projects.
<balloons> Tests are also found within the individual project trees, and we contribute tests there as well
<balloons> For the qatracker, The Ubuntu Manual Tests project holds all of our manual test results. Everything you see on the various qatrackers like iso.qa.ubuntu.com is held in the source code repository.
<balloons> The testcases are written in plain english, with a simple html syntax. You can see the format for our testcases here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/TestCaseFormat.
<balloons> Anyone can contribute a manual testcase to the project and we welcome contributions :-) Checkout https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/ContributingTestcases/ for more information!
<balloons> Again, I urge you to consider contributing in this area if you have good writing skills and the ability to write clear instructions for others to follow.
<balloons> It's a skill to be able to convey technical information in a testcase, and we're always looking for good wordsmiths to help us
<balloons> Now, on the automated testing side we deal mostly in three projects
<balloons> The Ubuntu Autopilot Tests project holds the autopilot testcases for the desktop tests. Your favorite applications like gedit, rhythmbox, nautilus, the terminal, etc can be found here
<balloons> Inside of lp:ubiquity we help maintain the autopilot tests that automated iso installation
<balloons> This helps find breakages before we as human testers see the images.. Saving us time, and testing more often than we are able
<balloons> Finally, we also contribute to the core apps projects
<balloons> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Touch/CoreApps/
<balloons> These apps represent the core apps for the phablet images of ubuntu.
<balloons> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/ContributingTestcases/#Ubuntu_Touch_Core_Apps
<balloons> If this interests you, I encourage you to have a read of http://www.theorangenotebook.com/2014/03/keeping-ubuntu-healthy-core-apps.html as well to understand how to help and what needs fixing
<balloons> Each of the core apps (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Touch/CoreApps) is under continuous development, adding features, etc. We help to ensure the apps work well by helping to maintain the testcases. You can find the test under each individual project on launchpad. Pick your favorite app and go have a look!
<balloons> The goal of these automated tests are to augment our manual testing and provide a nice set of regression tests that can be run against each new image. Automated tests are great for spotting regressions since they can execute the same tests on EVERY image; something us as humans aren't as well suited to do.
<balloons> So what happens to these automated tests after we write them?
<balloons> They are run against every new image and the results are pushed to http://ci.ubuntu.com. This is part of our continuous integration process.
<balloons> So for example we can see the results for the desktop images here: ci.ubuntu.com/smokeng/trusty/desktop/
<balloons> Clicking on today's result for the amd64 image I can see the tests that were run and the pass rates: http://ci.ubuntu.com/smokeng/trusty/desktop/amd64/20140417/7777/
<balloons> Well, actually, since trusty has just released this is a unique time and we're actually looking at the results from 4/17, the release day :-)
<balloons> Good thing everything was passing eh? :-)
<balloons> you can also see the phablet image results here: http://ci.ubuntu.com/smokeng/trusty/touch/
<balloons> There are many tests which are run on each new build of the images. As you can see, often several images are built in one day
<balloons> Automated tests are great for doing this much testing!
<balloons> On the smoke testing page you can see the automated testing results for our daily images. Images are not published for manual testing until they meet a baseline criteria for installation via automated testing -- this helps us focus our testing efforts :-) In addition, you'll notice the phablet images are tested as well. New releases to devel and stable require these tests to pass as a first critera.
<balloons> So in a nutshell, the automated test are run constantly and you can see the output on ci.ubuntu.com. More importantly, we can use the testruns to gate images and packages from releasing to us as testers until they pass the automated testsuite. This avoid us doing unnecessary work
<balloons> So, that was a quick runthrough of many different things. In a nutshell we spoke about contributing test results and contributing testcases. To contribute test results, install the development version of ubuntu, and tackle some of the tasks found on the tester role page. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Roles/Tester. For contributing testcases, remember you don't need to be a programmer to contribute; we need manual tests as well. Checkout t
<balloons> he test writer role page and the activities available to you. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Roles/TestWriter
<balloons> Now I think it's time for some questions!
<ClassBot> jose asked: When can we expect images for the unicorn for testing
<balloons> Good question. The first images will come online as soon as the initial archive is created and synced. I would suspect to see the first images no later than early next week
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<ClassBot> elfy asked: Any plans to increase visibility of testing for flavours - some had a few issues with no image testing at the end of the last cycle.
<balloons> yes, in particular a couple of the flavors only release LTS's, so it's not something they are used to doing. We might consider doing some verification that folks will be around as needed from the flavors. I felt like the situation was well communicated, but perhaps the gravity of the final images wasn't well understood. It's imperative to have people ready to tests at the end of the cycle during final milestone testing
<balloons> I also think we could do more to quell fears about upgrading or installing the RC image to help out. At that point in the cycle, we don't expect any problems at all. I suspect more folks could pitch in
<ClassBot> elfy asked: Thoughts on a quality IRC channel that's for autopilot - the current channel appears to be orientated that way - anyone trying to get traction on something that *isn't* anything to do with autopilot soon gets drowned out.
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<balloons> There is a #ubuntu-autopilot channel for AP help.. and it's decently used when working on autopilot things.. But certainly the -quality channel is a catch-all and I speak about many different things in it. If you are feeling like the conversation isn't conducive to getting help, we should chat more
<balloons> I know I've worked on AP tests for hours in the channel, so if I'm generating noise, my apologies :-)
<ClassBot> elfy asked: What smoketesting gets done for flavours in regard to results at ci.ubuntu.com?
<balloons> The set of AP tests for images is being run against flavors, although it's not currently appearing on ci.ubuntu.com. You can see the results here. I've been trying to get those results posted on ci.ubuntu.com and hope it happens this cycle
<balloons> Sorry, trying to find the link I want, 1 second :-)
<balloons> https://jenkins.qa.ubuntu.com/view/Ubiquity/view/All/
<balloons> viewing the raw jenkins output is not as nice, but the runs are happening and being watched :-)
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2014/04/23/%23ubuntu-classroom.html
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#ubuntu-classroom 2014-04-24
<dholbach> WELCOME EVERYONE TO DAY THREE OF UBUNTU OPEN WEEK!
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Ubuntu Development Team - Instructors: dholbach
<dholbach> A few organisational things before we get started....
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2014/04/24/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<dholbach> If you have to leave during the sessions or want to go back and read transcripts or watch videos later on again, they will be available on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
<dholbach> Also... if you have questions, please ask all the questions you have!
<dholbach> But please ask on #ubuntu-classroom-chat (so join this one as well if you're not there yet) and please prefix your questions with QUESTION: so they stand out
<dholbach> and the bot and I can pick them up more easily
<dholbach> just as an example   QUESTION: What's the name of your dog?
<dholbach> would work well
<dholbach> all rightie
<dholbach> so somebody asked me earlier what the session "Ubuntu Development Team" was going to be about
<dholbach> it's not about app development, but about working on Ubuntu, the platform, itself
<dholbach> everything to do with Ubuntu, its packages, the archive, fixing bugs in Ubuntu, etc will be the subject now
<dholbach> Do we have any first questions already?
<dholbach> Let's see what we get through today, but what I'd like to cover in this session at least is a good overview over "how Ubuntu is put together"
<dholbach> that (and the answers to a bunch of good questions) should help you get started as you will at least have heard of the most important things already
<dholbach> if I'm going too fast or slow, or don't make sense or you're curious about something, speak up and ask your QUESTION: in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<dholbach> Ubuntu is made up of thousands of different components, written in many different programming languages. Every component - be it a software library, a tool or a graphical application - is available as a source package.
<dholbach> Source packages in most cases consist of two parts: the actual source code and metadata. Metadata includes the dependencies of the package, copyright and licensing information, and instructions on how to build the package.
<dholbach> What I called "metadata" here, is what often is referred to as "packaging" in discussions.
<dholbach> Once this source package is compiled, the build process provides binary packages, which are the .deb files users can install.
<dholbach> Every time a new version of an application is released, or when someone makes a change to the source code that goes into Ubuntu, the source package must be uploaded to Launchpadâs build machines to be compiled.
<dholbach> The resulting binary packages then are distributed to the archive and its mirrors in different countries. The URLs in /etc/apt/sources.list point to an archive or mirror.
<dholbach> Every day images are built for a selection of different Ubuntu flavours, such as Ubuntu Desktop, Ubuntu Server, Kubuntu, Xubuntu, Lubuntu, Ubuntu Studio, Ubuntu for phones/tablets, etc.
<ClassBot> fossterer asked: So, just uploading 'source code' and 'metadata' to launchpad itself is enough? I'm assuming Launchpad itself does compilation
<dholbach> fossterer, yes, that's the case
<dholbach> it's basically (in most cases, there are exceptions) a tarball containing the "upstream" source code, plus a set of changes plus the metadata
<dholbach> Launchpad has a vast array of build machines, which then do the compilation
<dholbach> https://launchpad.net/builders/ has a list of the machines and what they're doing right now.
<ClassBot> clue_h asked: is bazaar used for this?
<dholbach> clue_h, yes, in a lot of places, that's the case
<dholbach> for example do we have many projects which are done in Launchpad using bazaar, where daily builds happen automatically, so Launchpad (LP) will checkout the branch and do a build
<dholbach> or builds of certain packages first go through a few rounds of automated testing and then land on the build machines
<dholbach> in a lot of other cases this is done manually, so the source package (source + metadata) is uploaded manually
<ClassBot> fossterer asked: But I remeber reading that 'Bazaar' is just another source control mechanism.. Is uploading to Launchpad integrated into it?
<dholbach> fossterer, yes it is
<dholbach> for example you can run            bzr branch lp:click-reviewers-tools            (just a random example)
<dholbach> ... which will get you the source from Launchpad
<dholbach> or       bzr branch ubuntu:gedit              will get you the source for the most recent gedit source package in Ubuntu
<ClassBot> thmslld asked: What is the technical reason that third party packages are not always updated to the latest version in the Ubuntu Software Centre when a new version comes out. Will this change with Click packages?
<dholbach> thmslld, there are a number of reasons for this and I'll deal with the question in more detail in just a bit - the short version is stability and just letting minimal fixes in for old releases
<dholbach> as I said more details in just ab it
<dholbach> a bit
<dholbach> click packages I can probably talk about a bit as well
<dholbach> it's a package format (VERY close to the .deb format) which is used on Ubuntu for phones/tablets for 3rd party apps
<dholbach> it's very much stripped down, so packages have almost no access to things which can cause problems (ie "rm -rf /" in a postinst script)
<dholbach> and the code in the packages is running heavily confined through apparmor
<dholbach> this allows us to say "ok, we don't need a source code review of every single bit that goes in"
<dholbach> which in turn allows us to give more power to app developers who can then choose to update their packages whenever they like
<dholbach> this is currently just possible on Ubuntu for phones/tablets
<dholbach> for regular Ubuntu we will have to answer a few more questions to get this done
<dholbach> all right... back to where I was earlier :-)
<dholbach> but keep the questions coming
<dholbach> I like it when there's more interaction :)
<dholbach> The images I talked about earlier can be used in various circumstances. There are images you can put on a USB key, you can burn them on DVDs, you can use netboot images and there are images suitable for your phone and tablet.
<dholbach> Ubuntu Desktop, Ubuntu Server, Kubuntu and others specify a list of required packages that get on the image. These images are then used for installation tests and provide the feedback for further release planning.
<dholbach> Ubuntuâs development is very much dependent on the current stage of the release cycle. We release a new version of Ubuntu every six months, which is only possible because we have established strict freeze dates.
<dholbach> to see what a release cycle looks like, check out https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TrustyTahr/ReleaseSchedule - it's a timetable for the 14.04 release cycle
<dholbach> With every freeze date that is reached developers are expected to make fewer, less intrusive changes. Feature Freeze is the first big freeze date after the first half of the cycle has passed.
<dholbach> At this stage features must be largely implemented. The rest of the cycle is supposed to be focused on fixing bugs. After that the user interface, then the documentation, the kernel, etc. are frozen, then the beta release is put out which receives a lot of testing.
<dholbach> From the beta release onwards, only critical bugs get fixed and a release candidate release is made and if it does not contain any serious problems, it becomes the final release.
<ClassBot> fossterer asked: (Click Packages) This brings to my mind the 'Android Permissions model' which shows a user what all an app is capale of, if installed. Am I getting it right?
<dholbach> fossterer, yes, that's similar in the click world as well - as an app author you have to specify which security permissions your app needs
<dholbach> (I'll focus a bit less on apps for phone/tablet now, if that's OK)
<dholbach> The next session will deal a bit more with App Development. :)
<ClassBot> clue_h asked: what is the difference between alpha1 and alpha2 in the release cycle?
<dholbach> clue_h, we just named the different milestones consecutively
<dholbach> alpha 1, alpha 2, beta 1, beta 2, final
<dholbach> this is to give users and testers an indication of how "complete" the image should feel
<dholbach> Thousands of source packages, billions of lines of code, hundreds of contributors require a lot of communication and planning to maintain high standards of quality. At the beginning and in the middle of each release cycle we have the Ubuntu Developer Summit where developers and contributors come together to plan the features of the next releases.
<dholbach> The next Summit is going to be called Ubuntu Online Summit though, and will be happening ... let me find the link.
<dholbach> 10th â 12th June 2014
<dholbach> http://www.jonobacon.org/2014/04/03/ubuntu-online-summit-dates/
<dholbach> Every feature is discussed by its stakeholders and a specification is written that contains detailed information about its assumptions, implementation, the necessary changes in other places, how to test it and so on. This is all done in an open and transparent fashion, so you can participate remotely and listen to a videocast, chat with attendants and subscribe to changes of specifications, so you are always up to date.
<dholbach> This is the beauty of Ubuntu: you can be part of it, you can be actively involved, you can meet the people and learn more.
<dholbach> So be there at the next summit and find something which attracts you.
<ClassBot> fossterer asked: 'Ubuntu Online Summit' is about "Ubuntu" itself but not the apps. Right?
<dholbach> fossterer, So the way these summits worked up until now was that we had a multitude of simultaneous tracks.
<dholbach> In each track there was always an hour long discussion about a specific feature or a specific initiative.
<dholbach> The tracks had name like "App Dev 1" or "Client 2" or "Cloud/Server 1", "Foundations", etc.
<dholbach> So a lot of focus was on App Development, but more on a meta level, like "how do we want these phone/tablet apps to work on the desktop in the future" or "how do we better teach how to write apps"
<dholbach> ... less about specific apps
<ClassBot> fossterer asked: To clarify, about 'Dash' rather than 'third party app'?
<dholbach> So yeah, we talked about Ubuntu, the dash and other things, and about third party apps more on a meta level, if that makes sense.
<dholbach> Not every single change can be discussed in a meeting though, particularly because Ubuntu relies on changes that are done in other projects. That is why contributors to Ubuntu constantly stay in touch.
<dholbach> Most teams or projects use dedicated mailing lists to avoid too much unrelated noise. For more immediate coordination, developers and contributors use Internet Relay Chat (IRC). All discussions are open and public.
<dholbach> Another important tool regarding communication is bug reports. Whenever a defect is found in a package or piece of infrastructure, a bug report is filed in Launchpad. All information is collected in that report and its importance, status and assignee updated when necessary. This makes it an effective tool to stay on top of bugs in a package or project and organise the workload.
<dholbach> Most of the software available through Ubuntu is not written by Ubuntu developers themselves. Most of it is written by developers of other Open Source projects and then integrated into Ubuntu. These projects are called âUpstreamsâ, because their source code flows into Ubuntu, where we âjustâ integrate it.
<dholbach> The relationship to Upstreams is critically important to Ubuntu. It is not just code that Ubuntu gets from Upstreams, but it is also that Upstreams get users, bug reports and patches from Ubuntu (and other distributions).
<dholbach> This makes working in the Ubuntu project very interesting, as you're not working just on Ubuntu, but also collaborate with other projects.
<dholbach> Sometimes different projects have different goals at a certain time, which makes things a bit more complicated now and then, but more on that in just a sec. :)
<dholbach> The most important Upstream for Ubuntu is Debian. Debian is the distribution that Ubuntu is based on and many of the design decisions regarding the packaging infrastructure are made there. Traditionally, Debian has always had dedicated maintainers for every single package or dedicated maintenance teams.
<dholbach> In Ubuntu there are teams that have an interest in a subset of packages too, and naturally every developer has a special area of expertise, but participation (and upload rights) generally is open to everyone who demonstrates ability and willingness.
<ClassBot> fossterer asked: If I write an app,  say a game, and make the project avaialble on Launchapd, what else do I need make my project an "upstream"?
<dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/NewPackages explains how to get it into Ubuntu as a standard .deb package (which will work on the traditional Desktop, etc.)
<dholbach> http://developer.ubuntu.com/publish/apps/ explains how to get your app into the software store for phones/tablets, which is a bit more straight-forward. ... Hopefully we are going to get these packages on the desktop very very soon. :-)
<dholbach> So let's say you want to fix a bug in Ubuntu... getting a change into Ubuntu as a new contributor is not as daunting as it seems and can be a very rewarding experience. It is not only about learning something new and exciting, but also about sharing the solution and solving a problem for millions of users out there.
<dholbach> Open Source Development happens in a distributed world with different goals and different areas of focus. For example there might be the case that a particular Upstream is interested in working on a new big feature while Ubuntu, because of the tight release schedule, is interested in shipping a solid version with just an additional bug fix. That is why we make use of âDistributed Developmentâ, where code is being worked on in variou
<dholbach> s branches that are merged with each other after code reviews and sufficient discussion.
<ClassBot> gaberlunzie asked: to whom and how does one "demonstrate ability and willingness", as you say?
<dholbach> gaberlunzie, So first of all, if you have a bug fix and don't plan to get involved much more, that bug fix is good enough. It'll be reviewed, tested and uploaded when it's ready.
<dholbach> If you plan to get upload rights yourself, you will have to work as part of the team for a while, get your packages and fixes reviewed. Then you can write an application for getting upload rights.
<dholbach> You can ask people you've worked with for support, and the Developer Membership Board will then make a decision.
<dholbach> In Ubuntu, everybody has to go through this process, no matter if they're experienced Open Source developers, or work for Canonical or another company, everybody has to go through this.
<ClassBot> fossterer asked: Does it mesn apt-get works anyway if I do a "sudo add-apt-repository" if I dont't go with publishing to Software Center? Launchpad itself gives a ppa address. Isn't it?
<dholbach> fossterer, yes, you can set up a PPA and your users can add it and get your packages through that
<dholbach> Ok.. so getting back to the case where an upstream project has great plans for a new big feature and Ubuntu has to stay on the old version because we release soon.
<dholbach> If we wanted to integrate a good change from Upstream (without the big feature as we won't have enough time to integrate and test it properly), we'd do this:
<dholbach> In the example mentioned above it would make sense to ship Ubuntu with the existing version of the project, add the bugfix, get it into Upstream for their next release and ship that (if suitable) in the next Ubuntu release. It would be the best possible compromise and a situation where everybody wins.
<dholbach> Distributed revision control helps a lot there.
<dholbach> Now is probably a good time to thmslld's question.
<dholbach> The question was: why do some 3rd party apps get out of date in stable releases.
<dholbach> (slightly paraphrased)
<dholbach> First of all: we focus all Ubuntu developers always on one current release. At every single moment, there's just one development release at a time.
<dholbach> Trying to work on different releases at the same time, would be hard, as you'd have to stay on top of things and fix bugs and implement features everywhere at the same time.
<dholbach> This is also a problem where you quickly have not enough hands on deck.
<dholbach> So what we do for old, stable releases is that we fix security bugs and hard-core, super important bugs.
<dholbach> This is always done after a lot of testing.
<dholbach> if you have millions of users using a stable release, you can't pull the rug under them.
<dholbach> Sometimes a "harmless" and "obvious" one-line fix can break behaviour users relied on.
<dholbach> if you have a look at the first few paragraphs of https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates (which explains the process on how to get updates into a stable release), you will see a couple of examples of where this went wrong in the past.
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<dholbach> So while it looks like a painful process and some apps or packages do get out of date, I hope it's a bit clearer now why this happens.
<dholbach> The good thing is that a new Ubuntu release is always just 6 months (maximum) away. ;-)
<dholbach> If you thought bug fixing looks interesting now... how to go about it?
<dholbach> To fix a bug in Ubuntu, you would first get the source code for the package, then work on the fix, document it so it is easy to understand for other developers and users, then build the package to test it.
<dholbach> After you have tested it, you can easily propose the change to be included in the current Ubuntu development release. A developer with upload rights will review it for you and then get it integrated into Ubuntu.
<dholbach> When trying to find a solution it is usually a good idea to check with Upstream and see if the problem (or a possible solution) is known already and, if not, do your best to make the solution a concerted effort.
<dholbach> Additional steps might involve getting the change backported to an older, still supported version of Ubuntu and forwarding it to Upstream.
<ClassBot> johnjohn101 asked: can you explain the difference between regular, muliverse and universe?
<dholbach> johnjohn101, sure
<dholbach> we have "main" and "universe" which both open source software with free software licenses, which follow the DFSG (debian free software guidelines)
<dholbach> and "restricted" and "multiverse" which contain the rest
<dholbach> "main" and "restricted" is what gets on the standard images and what gets support from Canonical
<dholbach> If you think about getting involved, here's what's you should consider:
<dholbach> The most important requirements for success in Ubuntu development are: having a knack for âmaking things work again,â not being afraid to read documentation and ask questions, being a team player and enjoying some detective work.
<dholbach> It's less about "knowing five programming languages"
<dholbach> ... although that obviously doesn't hurt :)
<dholbach> Good places to ask your questions are ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com and #ubuntu-motu on irc.freenode.net. You will easily find a lot of new friends and people with the same passion that you have: making the world a better place by making better Open Source software.
<dholbach> One page you should definitely bookmark is http://packaging.ubuntu.com
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<dholbach> along with English it's available in Spanish, Russian, Brazilian Portuguese, German and French as well
<dholbach> and should explain the most important steps in Ubuntu Development
<dholbach> Do we have any more questions? :)
<ClassBot> j_f-f asked: Sorry I'm to late (RL) :  I'm a software Developer especially with C++. How can I help?
<dholbach> nice one
<dholbach> There are lots of things to be done in Ubuntu: you can help fixing build failures, you can help merging changes from Debian, you can help fixing bugs, help with transitions in the Ubuntu archive, etc
<dholbach> if you have a look at packaging.ubuntu.com it links to a couple of places which have information about where to get started
<dholbach> and the MOTU team is always happy to help as well
<ClassBot> gaberlunzie asked: mentioning languages, what would be the top, say, 3 languages used in ubuntu dev?
<dholbach> C, Python and C++ probably, but there's packages in every single language under the sun
<dholbach> that's another beautiful thing in open source:
<dholbach> you can get the source
<dholbach> you can learn by reading and fixing it
<ClassBot> fossterer asked: I see an application being used in the field of Networks (Academic) whose instalaltion is always clumsy with user having to edit scripts, install dependencies indvidually etc.
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Organizing App Dev Schools - Instructors: dholbach, dpm
<dholbach> fossterer, I'd suggest you have a chat with the folks in #ubuntu-motu about this
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2014/04/24/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<dholbach> we're out of time for this session
<dholbach> thanks a lot everyone!
<dholbach> Luckily I'm also copresenting this session, so running over a little bit is a less rude ;-)
<dholbach> Thanks a lot everyone for attending the last session. You all rock!
<dholbach> so dpm, my co-host is going to be late, as he's in a call which is running over
<dholbach> a likely story, if you ask me - more like having ice cream somewhere in the sun or something
<dholbach> This session is about Organising Ubuntu App Dev Schools, which is a new initiative we started some weeks ago :)
<dholbach> For this we put together materials for teaching the first steps of Ubuntu App Development to others. If you spend some time preparing yourself, you can get up to speed in just a little bit of time and then meet up with people in your LoCo team, your LUG, your university group or just some friends and tell them about it.
<dholbach> We want to make it really really easy, because what's happening in Ubuntu right now is actually quite exciting and you can very easily benefit from it.
<dholbach> Two things I love about Ubuntu's App Story are:
<dholbach>  1. You write the code for an app once, and it will run on the phone, the tablet and soon on the desktop, the TV and elsewhere as well.
<dholbach>  2. It got lots and lots easier. We had people working on Ubuntu's Core Apps, so apps which are installed by default on the Ubuntu phone image (like the calculator, calendar, clock and others), who had never used QML or HTML5 before, but they were up to speed in no time and contributed lots of excellent code.
<dholbach> So in short: there's convergence (same code running on all devices) and the choice of technologies which helps you to get stuff done very quickly. :)
<ClassBot> thmslld asked: Do you know of any plans for books on learning QML or QT5?
<dholbach> We have quite a bit of information up on http://developer.ubuntu.com/
<dholbach> This plus some toying around and reading API docs (if you have done a bit of development before) should put you into a position where you can write apps very quickly. That plus the community of engineers and volunteers who help out a lot.
<dholbach> I'm sure there are books about Qt and QML development, I don't know (to be brutally honest) how good or how up to date they are. AFAIK they don't deal with Ubuntu App development though.
<dpm> yes, I'd recommend starting with the tutorials on developer.ubuntu.com to get a feel for QML and how the tools work, and then you can dive into the details
<dholbach> welcome dpm :)
<dpm> hey, sorry for the delay
<dholbach> no worries :)
<dholbach> So let's say you are interested, you want to prepare for your LUG/LoCo/university/friends meet-up and talk about app development... what to do?
<dpm> find a venue! :-)
<dholbach> Some LoCo teams or LUGs have the privilege of having a venue they always go to, but if you don't, dpm probably has an idea what to do.
<dpm> :-)
<dpm> So generally finding a venue is the starting point of planning an app dev school
<dpm> as dholbach is saying, perhaps your LoCo already has a regular meeting place, but if you don't,
<dpm> it's worth looking for a local hackerspace or makerspace
<dpm> or if the event is going to be smaller, an internet cafe or someone's place will do nicely too
<dholbach> or ask in your university for a room, or a library
<dpm> indeed
<dpm> if you're going to talk about apps and show off the SDK it's also important that there's wifi if possible, and mains connection would be good too
<dpm> It all depends on the size of the event you're planning
<dpm> but generally folks will come with their laptops, so it's good to be prepared for that
<dpm> so think about how big you're planning your event to be and start looking for an appropriate venue first
<dpm> you can then work on the finer details about organizing food and beverages for participants,
<dpm> chairs, tables, etc.
<dpm> once you've organized a venue, you'll probably have a date too,
<dpm> and from that point on, you can start promoting it!
<dholbach> Yes :)
<dpm> dholbach, where can one promote an app dev school event?
<dholbach> A very good place to advertise the event is http://loco.ubuntu.com
<dholbach> as Ubuntu users can very easily check out where events nearby are, etc
<dholbach> also use the regular communication channels for your local Ubuntu team as well
<dholbach> mailing lists, forums, facebook, twitter, google+ and other social media
<dholbach> inform other LUGs in your city too
<dholbach> if you put effort into the event, you might as well have people there :)
<dpm> Talking about the LoCo portal, I hear this weekend there is a big App Dev School being organized by the Italian LoCo team! :) http://loco.ubuntu.com/events/global/2677/
<dholbach> Awesome!
<dholbach> Let people know
<dholbach>  - when and where the App Dev School will be held. A map and simple directions will help.
<dholbach> what to expect (apart from hot Ubuntu App Development love): maybe soft drinks, pizza?
<dpm> yay!
<dholbach> but you can probably also let people know in local computer retail stores or local cafÃ©s
<dholbach> or local news media too
<dholbach> Do we have any questions up until now about organising the event?
<dpm> while we're waiting for that, another thing to mention
<dpm> regarding logistics
<dpm> is that it's useful to prepare a form for folks to sign up to your event
<dholbach> ah yes
<dpm> so that you know in advance an estimation of how many people will attend
<dholbach> loco.ubuntu.com is helpful there as well :)
<dpm> yes :)
<dholbach> looks like we're fine up until now in terms of question... let's talk a bit about actually teaching Ubuntu App Development
<dpm> you can use the form from there straight away or you can use your own one if you've already got one set up
<dpm> ok
<dholbach> sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off :)
<dpm> I'd finished, let's talk about teaching :)
<dholbach> awesome
<dholbach> we have materials, right dpm? :)
<dpm> oh yeah
<dpm> So to ensure the presenters don't have to start from scratch, we've prepared a set of materials
<dpm> that can be used to base presentations on
<dpm> you can use them as they are, they are ready to go
<dpm> or you can modify them to your needs
<dpm> or translate them!
<dholbach> Oh yeah... if you do, let dpm or myself know and we can upload them and link to them. :)
<dpm> indeed, by now we've got translations into Chinese, Catalan, Spanish and Italian
<ClassBot> fossterer asked: If I get to translate them, can I upload it to you?
<dholbach> sure... you can just give me the link and I'll link to the presentations in the right places :)
<dholbach> so whoever prepares a session can use your translated materials if that works better for them
<dpm> yeah, let us give you the link to the materials in a minute so you can see how to do it
<dpm> I was just building up the stage for them :)
<dholbach> the slides we have contain speaker notes as well, which also helps with preparing for the sssions
<dpm> yeah, these are quite useful indeed
<dpm> The materials are there to help you get started, they are guidelines, and you can choose whether to use them fully or to roll your own
<dpm> The main materials are slide decks you can download from here:
<dpm> An indroduction to Ubuntu for phones/tablets - http://people.canonical.com/~dholbach/tmp/apps-presentations/Ubuntu,%20the%20new%20force%20in%20mobile.odp
<dpm> Getting started with Ubuntu App Development - http://people.canonical.com/~dholbach/tmp/apps-presentations/Workshop%20-%20get%20started%20creating%20Ubuntu%20apps.odp
<dholbach> we have two sets of slides, one being a general introduction to Ubuntu for phones/tablets, which sets the stage for the second, where you actually dive into the technical bits and help people get set up to use the Ubuntu SDK and then proceed to the hands-on programming part
<dholbach> it always depends how experienced your audience is
<dholbach> if you have programming experts who already know a lot about Ubuntu, you can probably zip through the presentations very quickly
<dholbach> if your audience is less experienced you will need a full afternoon (4h or something)
<dholbach> generally I'd recommend to ask early on
<dpm> indeed, preparation is key
<dholbach> and maybe even mention on the invitation that folks had at least toyed around a bit with programming in the past
<dholbach> although I'm not 100% sure about that one
<dholbach> dpm, what do you think?
<dpm> dholbach, I actually agree, I think that participants should have a basic understanding of programming to get the most out of the session
<dpm> Another set of materials that we've got are the tutorials on developer.ubuntu.com
<dpm> To pick just two examples that illustrate writing QML and HTML5 apps:
<dpm> http://developer.ubuntu.com/apps/qml/tutorial/building_your_first_qml_app/
<dpm> http://developer.ubuntu.com/apps/html-5/tutorials/meanings-app-html5-tutorial/
<dholbach> awesome
<dpm> you can use these to get some ideas for easy apps to get the audience started writing real-world apps
<dpm> If you you donât have a preference, if you want to talk about HTML-5 or QML,
<dpm> you could ask your audience for what theyâre interested in.
<dpm> If you have lots and lots of time, do both! :-)
<dpm> Also as preparation for the session as an instructor
<dholbach> if, during the time where you prepare for the sessions, you should have any questions: let us know, get in touch with the ubuntu app community - there's lots of folks who are happy to help you get started: http://developer.ubuntu.com/community/
<dpm> you can learn more about the Ubuntu platform and technologies involved in creating apps watching the videos of some past Ubuntu events
<dholbach> ah yes, good thinking!
<dpm> such as the Ubuntu App Developer week :)
<dpm> Here's a link to the past UADW where you can watch some interesting videos: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/summit.ubuntu.com/appdevweek-1403/
<dholbach> on http://summit.ubuntu.com/appdevweek-1403/ you can see the timetable of last times event :)
<dholbach> looks like dpm wanted to give you an obfuscated version of the URL instead ;-)
<dpm> ah, thanks dholbach :)
<dpm> any questions on materials, so far?
<dpm> dholbach, shall we talk about actually giving the session, then?
<dholbach> one thing I just thought of: if you have folks in the audience who don't run Ubuntu on their laptop, we have VirtualBox images prepared for you
<dpm> ah yeah
<dholbach> you can put these images on a usb key and pass them around during your presentation, so no matter if they run another linux or windows or use a mac, they can easily use Ubuntu and the Ubuntu SDK
<dholbach> but that's now all I had on materials :)
<dpm> we can also invite Windows and Mac folks in there, we're a very welcoming bunch :)
<dholbach> so yeah... giving the session
<dholbach> There are multiple ways to give the session. You could just demo everything, especially if you have a lot of people in the audience who didnât bring a laptop, but in general thereâs a lot of worth in everyone doing as much as they can on their own.
<dholbach> There are different ways to run the session: you can for example run through the online tutorial step-by-step
<dholbach> If you do...
<dholbach> Ensure that every participant has successfully installed the SDK and has opened the page to the tutorial
<dholbach> Start going through the tutorial yourself, and share your screen to show what you are doing with Qt Creator
<dholbach> Donât be too quick: divide your explanation into sections and make sure everyone is following before going to the next section. An easy way to determine a section is to use the code snippets in the tutorial to mark the start of the next section
<dholbach> You can ask participants to copy and paste the code snippets directly from the tutorialâs web page.
<dholbach> Make sure you explain what each section is doing by running the code snippet on Qt Creator yourself and asking the participants to do the same. You can then tweak parts of the tutorial to show particular aspects in more detail (e.g. ask participants to tweak height/width of the MainView and see whatâs happening)
<dholbach> Choose either to run the code on a device or on the emulator. A good compromise might be that the presenter runs on a device and those participants who donât have one run it with the emulator
<dholbach> Try not to just follow the tutorial 100%: itâs just a guideline, so try to bring something of your own or modify it to keep the audience engaged
<dholbach> Questions so far? Could you imagine running an event like this now? :)
<dholbach> This might now seem a bit hard and lots to prepare, but it's actually not that bad and you could also co-present together with a friend, which would make the whole thing more fun
<dholbach> ... and allow you to run around answering questions together
<dholbach> If you don't want to go through the tutorials, you could also ask your participants to run the tutorial themselves
<dpm> Yes, even if you're not yet part of a LoCo, you can get in touch with a LoCo or with a bunch of friends in your area to organize the event
<dholbach> yeah, that's right
<dholbach> ubuntu-locoteams@lists.ubuntu.com is a good place to ask for help
<dholbach> Another alternative: point them to the online tutorials and ask them to follow them, to ask if theyâve got questions at any point and to show you the end result.
<dholbach> Whatever you decide to do, make sure you walk around the room and see if people run into issues or get stuck.
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<dholbach> Any more questions?
<dholbach> Sorry about that, jose just corrected me: it's loco-contacts@lists.ubuntu.com
<dholbach> . o O { That's what I get for trying to write up mail addresses from the top of my head... }
<dholbach> A few other things you might want to bear in mind during the session:
<dholbach> Showing the app running on a device. If you have a device running Ubuntu and want to show how the app is working out, bring a webcam, so you can record whatâs on the deviceâs screen and share it over the projector.
<dholbach> Use the emulator. Using the emulator is very important as an app developer, so showing its use early on is very important to new app developers.
<dholbach> Invite questions. Make sure you remind everyone that questions are welcome and that youâre happy to find out together with the audience how things work, how things can be made better and that itâs totally fine to ask, suggest or get involved.
<dpm> - Get feedback. Itâs important that we learn from the questions and suggestions of newcomers. Point your audience to our feedback form (https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/ubuntuappdevschool), so we can further improve the events.
<dpm> - Ask the experts. If you donât know the answer to a question: no problem. You can demonstrate first-hand how to get in touch with the app developer community. Either join IRC and ask the question there or try asking the question on askubuntu. This will show the audience how to get in touch with the world-wide community of app developers.
<dpm> - Use a flipchart or a board. If available, itâs really useful to use a board to explain particular aspects of the code or the SDK with drawing quick diagrams or explanations.
<dpm> And finally, to wrap up
<dpm> Here's how you can get help:
<dpm> - Ping me (dpm) or dholbach on the #ubuntu-app-devel channel
<dpm> If we're not around, feel free to ask the question on the channel, and if there's someone around that can help, they'll try to answer
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<dholbach> - For help with the organisation of the event, ask on loco-contacts@lists.ubuntu.com - ther are lots and lots of people who organised lots of events already.
<dholbach> And yeah, for questions about app development, what dpm said. :-)
<dpm> Check out http://developer.ubuntu.com/community/ for many other ways to get in touch with other fellow community members who are as excited about app development and willing to help as you
<dholbach> Writing apps for Ubuntu has never been this easy and also getting them published. It'll take a bit until they'll be available on the Desktop, but it won't be too crazy long. This is definitely worth bringing up in your local team or with friends. :)
<dholbach> Any more questions or shall we wrap this up?
<dholbach> Ok, look like we're good.
<dpm> I think we should be good to go, yes!
<dholbach> Thanks a lot everyone! You're all heroes!
<dholbach> Thanks a bunch dpm! :)
<dpm> Indeed, thanks a lot everyone for listening in and thanks dholbach!
<dholbach> Rock on!
<dpm> \m/
<dholbach> Next up is the Kubuntu Team - Quintasan, ovidiu-florin will take over the mic in just a sec.
<Quintasan> Hmm
<Quintasan> yes
<ovidiu-florin> Hello world
<Quintasan> Thanks dholbach and dpm for great session!
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Kubuntu Team - Instructors: Quintasan, ovidiu-florin
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2014/04/24/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<Quintasan> So, Ladies and Gentlemen, welcome to the Kubuntu Team talk.
<Quintasan> ovidiu-florin and I will be talking about some blue gears, unicorns, ninjas and whatnot
<Quintasan> But first of all I'd like to introduce myself. My real name is MichaÅ ZajÄc, currently I'm studying and I have been contributing to Kubuntu since 2009
<Quintasan> ovidiu-florin: you there?
<ovidiu-florin> And I am Ovidiu-Florin Bogdan, software developer and Kubuntu enthusiast and promoter for a couple of years.
<ovidiu-florin> And I am Ovidiu-Florin Bogdan, software developer and Kubuntu enthusiast and promoter for a couple of years.
<ovidiu-florin> sorry for that, network lag
<Quintasan> And we are going to talk about how *you* can contribute to Kubuntu
<Quintasan> Kubuntu as any other open source project is looking for new people.
<Quintasan> There are numerous different ways in which you can contribute, both directly and indirectly.
<Quintasan> But before that you might want to ask *why* would you want to contribute.
<ovidiu-florin> Kubuntu is a great Linux Distro that bring to the world the best of two worlds: Ubuntu and KDE combined
<ovidiu-florin> it brings in the portability and stability of Ubuntu (as a base)
<ovidiu-florin> and the beautifull and amazingly customizable Desktop environement from KDE
<ovidiu-florin> toghether they make a great pair, great for the beginner and the advanced
<Quintasan> so ovidiu-florin here joined us because he liked what we are doing, that's also a good reason
<Quintasan> For me it was a mix of wanting to learn something new, testing myself and hoping that somewhen someone would think "Hey, those guys over there are doing a pretty good job." :)
<Quintasan> Now that I think about it, that worked out.
<Quintasan> Let's go back to *how* to contribue.
<Quintasan> In general:
<Quintasan> 1. You want to hang around #kubuntu-devel since this is Kubuntu Developers headquaters
<Quintasan> 2. You can also join #kde-devel
<Quintasan> 3. General support channels are also good to hang around, those are #kubuntu and #kde
<Quintasan> ovidiu-florin: Anything I forgot?
<ovidiu-florin> You can also state your opinion on our mail list
<Quintasan> Which would be kubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com
<Quintasan> Time to get more specific.
<Quintasan> As I said there are numerous ways to contribute, let me list them.
<Quintasan> 1. Translations
<Quintasan> 2. Testing
<Quintasan> 3. Programming
<Quintasan> 4. Packaging
<Quintasan> 5. Working upstream
<Quintasan> 6. Other related stuff
<Quintasan> Let's talk about translations first.
<Quintasan> Things that you can translate include Kubuntu and KDE documentation
<Quintasan> as well as KDE applications
<Quintasan> You can see the current edition of Kubuntu Docs on http://docs.kubuntu.org/
<Quintasan> We work on the documentation here http://userbase.kde.org/Kubuntu
<Quintasan> That should be pretty straightforward but if there are any questions please ask
<Quintasan> KDE specific documentation can be found under http://userbase.kde.org as well as http://techbase.kde.org where the latter is more developer oriented
<ovidiu-florin> Regarding translating KDE applications you can see a current status here: http://i18n.kde.org/stats/gui/stable-kde4/team/
<ovidiu-florin> and from there you should get in contact with the translators for your language so they can guide you on how to start and how to translate
<ovidiu-florin> usualy this involves using Lokalize, but some teams have their own system like Transifex or Pootle
<ovidiu-florin> anyway, the main translation files are stored in the KDE SVN
<ovidiu-florin> on the same page I just gave, you can find any instructions you may need and contact details
<ovidiu-florin> if you need help feel free to ask us as well
<Quintasan> Translating KDE applications benefits us indirectly (and also falls into Working upstream category ) since Kubuntu relies heavily on the upstream localization.
<Quintasan> Let's move on to testing.
<Quintasan> Testing includes:
<Quintasan> 1. KDE updates testing
<Quintasan> 2. ISO testing
<Quintasan> and is relatively simple, in 1. you help us test if our packages are error free so users can seamlessly upgrade to newest KDE SC versions
<ovidiu-florin> You get to test/use new versions of KDE software and Ubuntu Software before anyone else, before the new Kubuntu release.
<Quintasan> Second thing involves downloading ISOs and installing them either in virtual machines or physical devices to see if the installation process works as one would expect it to
<Quintasan> If you want to help us with testing then please hang in #kubuntu-devel, say you'd like to help with testing and we will be sure to tell you when there is anything you can test.
<Quintasan> Next on the list is programming
<Quintasan> This involves working on Kubuntu-specific applications such as our new shiny driver manager, Ubiquity frontend and some other applications
<Quintasan> For reference - Ubiquity is the backend that Ubuntu and flavours use to install Ubuntu
<Quintasan> Another thing that you can do is to work directly on KDE SC application
<Quintasan> Which yet again benefits us indirectly since better code -> better user experience
<Quintasan> Working on the code upstream requires you to have decent knowledge of C++/Qt. But fear not if you don't as there is extensive documentation as well as many tutorial over at TechBase
<Quintasan> there is also KDE Dev Guide over at http://flossmanuals.net/kde-guide/ which will introduce you to KDE development
<ovidiu-florin> There are also a few KDE applications that use Python
<Quintasan> Yeah, I forgot about that
<ovidiu-florin> for KDE development you can get all the help on the kde-devel mail list
<ovidiu-florin> kde-devel@kde.cor
<Quintasan> KDE has bindings for languages such as Python, Ruby etc. so you can write application in those languages
<ovidiu-florin> sorry kde-devel@kde.org
<ovidiu-florin> and untill you get a developer account you can also help out with other stuff
<ovidiu-florin> like bug reporting and triaging
<Quintasan> There is also QML which is not only used by Ubuntu ;)
<ovidiu-florin> make patches and submit them on the review board
<Quintasan> I think that pretty much covers code contributions
<ovidiu-florin> http://techbase.kde.org/ tels you all you need to know about this
<Quintasan> No questions so far :(
<Quintasan> Well, let's move on then
<ovidiu-florin> they don't know what their missing
<ovidiu-florin> there's blue gold over here
<Quintasan> Ah yes, packaging.
<Quintasan> Indeed, blue gold over here
<ovidiu-florin> this is kind of the core of Kubuntu contributions
<Quintasan> A friendly reminder - you can ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat by prefixing with QUESTION:
<Quintasan> So back to packaging
<Quintasan> In case you don't what packaging is - packaging involves taking software from upstream, writing a set of rules that tells the builders how to build the software and then putting that into Ubuntu repositories
<Quintasan> You can start off by picking something maybe from http://kde-apps.org/ that's not yet in the repositories (or maybe the package needs an update) and giving it a go
<Quintasan> If you need help then be sure to ask us in #kubuntu-devel
<Quintasan> We are really friendly :)
<ovidiu-florin> this is pretty chalenging since you have to make sure the package you make will bring in all dependencies
<ovidiu-florin> it's pretty easy to miss one
<Quintasan> Once you aquire some skill you can join the elite ranks of Kubuntu Ninjas who package the latest and the shiniest releases of KDE SC which end up in tons of computers powered by Kubuntu
<ovidiu-florin> also you have to learn a few things about licensing
<Quintasan> I didn't joke about the ninjas
<ovidiu-florin> and the compatibility between them
<Quintasan> as ovidiu-florin there are many things to learn but we are quite happy to guide you.
<ovidiu-florin> he's not kidding, the ninjas are real
<Quintasan> There is also Project Neon
<Quintasan> Project Neon is a set of Launchpad recipes that provides nightly, daily, and weekly build of KDE
<Quintasan> PN is aimed at people who run Kubuntu and would like to start contributing back to KDE or just want to test the bleeding edge.
<Quintasan> If you'd like to know more then you can find us over at #project-neon as well as #kubuntu-devel
<Quintasan> I think that's about it.
<Quintasan> ovidiu-florin: anything to add?
<ovidiu-florin> one sec
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<ovidiu-florin> how to become a kubuntu member and why to do it.
<Quintasan> ovidiu-florin: I mean about packaging :P
<ovidiu-florin> oh, I think you've covered it.
<Quintasan> Go on then
<Quintasan> I think we have website magic and community stuff still left
<ovidiu-florin> I'll be short
<ovidiu-florin> a Kubuntu member is a contributor to Kubuntu, that (at least) for a period of time brought great contributions to Kubuntu and continues to support Kubuntu one way or another
<ovidiu-florin> One great advantage of a Kubuntu member is that they have @kubuntu.org email addresses
<Quintasan> Sounds kind of official :P
<Quintasan> Well, you get some minor benefits such as Kubuntu email business cards and whatnot
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<Quintasan> but most importantly you become a part of our really nice community
<ovidiu-florin> Website magic & community management
<Quintasan> and recive your own place in the Hall of Fame
<ovidiu-florin> you will get to post stuff on our website, help maintain it and improve it. So a bit of web development
<ovidiu-florin> Also, the best thing of them all: You get to promot Kubuntu as a Kubuntu contributor
<ovidiu-florin> you get to be a part of the team
<ovidiu-florin> and we care ( a lot ) about our team members
<ovidiu-florin> you get to travet to Kubuntu meetings
<ovidiu-florin> and have fun while doing it :D
<Quintasan> That too I guess :D
<Quintasan> There is also community management which involves...social media?
<Quintasan> and more IRC I guess
<ovidiu-florin> yes, of course
<Quintasan> Well, I think that's all we could cover in and hour
<Quintasan> Be sure to join us at #kubuntu-devel and say hello
<ovidiu-florin> we're on Google+ https://plus.google.com/107577785796696065138
<Quintasan> Thanks for having us
<ovidiu-florin> Thank you
<Quintasan> jose: Do we have anyone next?
<jose> well, that's myself!
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ubuntu Open Week - Current Session: Ubuntu LoCo Teams - Instructors: jose
<Quintasan> hah
<Quintasan> jose: Go on then!
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2014/04/24/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
 * Quintasan leaves the stage
<jose> thanks a bunch, Quintasan and ovidiu-florin for the session about Kubuntu, very interesting!
<jose> and well, we're coming near the end of the Open Week!
<jose> in case you don't know me, I'm JosÃ© Antonio Rey, another random community member (who wants to be a unicorn too!)
<jose> and part of the LoCo Council
<jose> this time I'm going to explain what are LoCo Teams, what they do, and how can you become part of yours!
<jose> if you have any questions, make sure to ask them at #ubuntu-classroom-chat, they should start with QUESTION:
<jose> let's get rolling!
<jose> I'm quite sure you may have wondered if there are any people around your country or city who use Ubuntu like you, or who contribute to Ubuntu
<jose> well, we have Ubuntu LoCo Teams
<jose> LoCo stands for Local Community, so, they are Ubuntu Local Community Teams
<jose> for those speaking Spanish: no, we're not crazy. ok, we might be, but just a little bit
<jose> people inside LoCo Teams get together to share experiences, help advocate Ubuntu and, in general, have fun
<jose> we have LoCo Teams mostly all around the globe
<jose> and you can find yours by going to loco.ubuntu.com
<jose> loco.ubuntu.com is a great resource we have, and is often referred to as the LoCo Team Portal
<jose> or LTP for short
<jose> once you've found your LoCo Team, you will see they have a Launchpad team you can also join, and a mailing list to which you can subscribe!
<jose> they should also have an IRC channel, in case you want to live-chat with someone else
<jose> make sure to say 'Hi!' once you join, so everyone knows you're around
<jose> in the LTP you will be able to find events for your LoCo Team, so if you want to attend *all* details should be listed there
<jose> are there any questions so far?
<ClassBot> genii asked: What if my area doesn't have a LoCo? Can I start one?
<jose> sure thing!
<jose> if you don't find a LoCo in your area, and only if you don't fine one it's good to start a new LoCo Team
 * jose grabs a link
<jose> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoTeamHowto should contain information about how to start a LoCo team in case there is none in your area
<jose> any other questions?
<jose> I'll guess we'll move on
<jose> oh, question!
<ClassBot> genii asked: What role does the #ubuntu-locoteams channel have ?
<jose> the #ubuntu-locoteams is a general loco-related support channel, and also a place for contacting the LoCo Council
<jose> I'll get to what the LoCo Council is in a bit :)
<jose> so, LoCo teams are the ones responsible for advocating Ubuntu in their areas, as I mentioned
<jose> for example, they host the awesome release parties!
<jose> people just get together and celebrate, they sometimes have cake, pizza and soft drinks
<jose> (beer may also be included)
<jose> and also host Ubuntu hours
<jose> that is, when people just get together for an hour and talk about Ubuntu or even their lives
<ClassBot> genii asked: Do you have to be an Ubuntu member before joining a LoCo?
<jose> not at all!
<jose> anyone can join a LoCo Team!
<jose> the only requirement for joining is liking Ubuntu, for sure
<jose> if you have a unicorn, I'm sure he'll also be accepted in the team
<jose> LoCo teams are also welcome to do any kind of events they like
<jose> they can participate in conferences and do lots of things
<jose> there's no limit on what a LoCo can do, as long as it follows the CoC
<jose> and, as mentioned before, anyone can join, so it's no "programmers only" club, in case you were wonderint
<jose> s/wonderint/wondering/
<ClassBot> jincreator asked: Can you briefly explain about verified LoCo Team?
<jose> good question!
<jose> in the community, we have two types of LoCo Teams: LoCo Teams and Verified LoCo Teams
<jose> Verified teams have gone through a process where the LoCo Council has checked that they have their stuff set up, and the team contact is contactable
<jose> it's a very simple process, in fact
<jose> so I think I've mentioned the LoCo Council a couple of times, you may be wondering what it is
<jose> the LoCo Council is a group of people elected by the Community Council, which helps the LoCo Teams and empowers them
<jose> we are the ones responsible to check and verify teams
<jose> as well as helping you if you have a problem with your resources (whichever it may be)
<jose> also, if there's a conflict in a LoCo Team, you can contact us and we'll be more than happy to help
<jose> to leave some contact details about the LoCo Council
<jose> you can reach us by sending us an email to loco-council@lists.ubuntu.com
<jose> or if you go to #ubuntu-lococouncil on irc.freenode.net, just say '!lococouncil' without quotes
<jose> oh, and we try to constantly post news at lococouncil.ubuntu.com, our blog
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<jose> so, I don't know if you guys have any questions before we wrap up the session
<jose> well, I think that will be all for now
<jose> if you want to contact us make sure to come by #ubuntu-locoteams or send us an email at loco-council@lists.ubuntu.com, we don't bite :)
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<jose> ooh, question!
<ClassBot> jincreator asked: What happens to verified loco team if they didn't apply re-verification process after 2 years?
<jose> good point, jincreator!
<jose> Verified status lasts for two years, so if the team doesn't apply for re-verification, then they lose their verified status, as well as the privileges it may have
<jose> so make sure your team applies in time!
<jose> well, I think that's all I can say for this session, if you have any questions just go ahead and ask in #ubuntu-locoteams
<jose> you're totally welcome to join
<jose> finally, I would like to thank you all for attending this OpenWeek, it's been awesome
<jose> we had a great variety of people from many many teams, and I really hope it has served you all in learning something new about the amazing community we have
<jose> also thanks to everyone who helped!
<jose> and, so we've come to the end. thanks again for attending, and I hope to see you around!
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2014/04/24/%23ubuntu-classroom.html
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || No Sessions Currently in Progress
