#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-04-11
<AlanBell> Pendulum: should be an email from yaili to approve in a sec
<Pendulum> ok
<Pendulum> AlanBell: do you mean to the ML?
<Pendulum> because I don't have ML access
<Pendulum> *admin
<AlanBell> ah, ok
<AlanBell> just TheMuso who is asleep
<AlanBell> yaili: did it get held for approval?
<TheMuso> Whats up?
<AlanBell> oh, not asleep!
<TheMuso> Nope.
<TheMuso> Its 9:12PM here atm.
<AlanBell> should be a mail to the mailing list from Inayaili
<AlanBell> or will be soon
<TheMuso> ok thanks.
 * AlanBell says G'day to TheMuso 
<TheMuso> I appreciate a heads up like that, because the vast majority of stuff that hits the moderatino queue is spam, and I have a habbit of dumping the entire lot, even though there was a legit message in there that I do remember seeing.
<TheMuso> Ok coming through any minute.
<AlanBell> the thrust of the mail is that yaili will be going through some ubuntu.com changes with us at 2:30 UK time (that is in 2:15 from now)
<Pendulum> AlanBell: I did just get the mail :)
<Pendulum> UndiFineD: hajour ^^
<TheMuso> Right, I'll be in bed by then.
 * AlanBell is off out for lunch, laters all
<yaili> AlanBell: hello?
<AlanBell> hello
<yaili> AlanBell: shall we do this?
<AlanBell> yes, lets
<AlanBell> Pendulum: charlie-tca o/
<charlie-tca> good morning
<yaili> ok, so the gist of this is that we're redesigning some sections of ubuntu.com and we know there's been some problems with accessibility
<yaili> although we can't make all the changes necessary to improve the site, as we're dealing with a lot of legacy code and bad implementations
<yaili> it's time we have a proper chat about the main issues that have been identified
<yaili> and take a quick look at the the new designs to see what concerns you might have regarding that
<yaili> does this make sense?
<Pendulum> hiya
<AlanBell> does to me
<Pendulum> yaili: just as an FYI, this is a logged channel
<hajour> o/
<yaili> yes, AlanBell informed me :)
<Pendulum> (someone pointed out that I should make sure you knew it had public logs)
<yaili> Pendulum: thanks :)
<Pendulum> sounds good to me :)
<hajour> sorry just awake
<yaili> right, so here is one of the new designs, not 100% finalised, mind you: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/103530/features-overview-12.png
<yaili> two notes: 1. the font size has been increased to 13px, we still can't make sizes relative for this release
<yaili> the background has been changed, and I know you've had concerns with the contrast before
<yaili> most of the text is on white though, and with the font size increase I'd like to know a bit more about this issue, if possible
<AlanBell> text on white is good
<UndiFineD> hello
<yaili> something we thought about was alternate stylesheets, does anyone have an opinion on these?
<yaili> UndiFineD: hello
<Pendulum> I like alternate stylesheets :D
<charlie-tca> That reads much better
<hajour> is the font size able to increase more?/
<yaili> Pendulum: what do you think would be important on an alternate stylesheet?
<Pendulum> yaili: choice of font size and a couple options for colour combinations
<yaili> hajour: what do you mean? make it larger overall? or is it in %s or ems?
<Pendulum> for example, there's a condition called Irlen's Syndrome where you can't read a white background so a pale purple (or even a very pale orange) is better
<hajour> app for to be able choose colour and front sizes
<Pendulum> also, on the main theme, is there any way to make the white on orange text stand out a little more?
<yaili> Pendulum: you mean on the navigation?
<UndiFineD> it is tough to be WCAG compliant, but alternate stylesheets would help
<hajour> the orange need to be darker if you use white fonts.i could not read it and still not
<yaili> hajour: I think we're trying to move away from white on orange, especially for big blocks of text
<UndiFineD> she finds that a big relief
<yaili> UndiFineD: when we were looking at the palette, we did test this colour combination, on Snook's contrast checker, and it passes all 3 levels, what I was told is that automatic tests are of course not the same as a user with visual impairments
<UndiFineD> yeah it absolutely depends on the individual
<Pendulum> yaili: yes
<hajour> sorry i am saying to UndiFineD  what i want to say.my meds do not wwork yet and its very hard to write now and i write very slow now
<yaili> hajour: no worries
<hajour> so UndiFineD  write what i say sometimes
<yaili> hajour: ok
<yaili> ok, so I think we have an idea of what the biggest issues on the site are, font-resizing, colour contrast
<yaili> but that's the visual layer
<yaili> do you have any comments regarding the actual markup?
<yaili> we know that it isn't as clean as we'd like
<charlie-tca> The line starting with overview? Is that really a line of links in black text?
<yaili> also, we need to create a proper print style sheet :)
<UndiFineD> hajour, is having difficulties reading sentences after one another
<yaili> UndiFineD: yes, that has been left as it is now. I think we'll need to do some testing because we're afraid thos emight go unnoticed
<yaili> UndiFineD: which sentences?
<charlie-tca> There is no change of contrast to define the links vs text at all?
<UndiFineD> Super-fast and great-looking, Ubuntu is a secure, intuitive operating system that powers desktops, servers, netbooks and laptops. Ubuntu is, and always will be, absolutely free.
<yaili> so, except for navigation, which still needs to be sorted, the links rationale is orange is it's headings, loose text, etc., if it's inline with text, we're adding a bottom border, rather than underlined, but I don't think that is visible in this mockup
<yaili> charlie-tca: ^
<UndiFineD> yaili, you just lost hajour 
<UndiFineD> to much in one sentence
<yaili> UndiFineD: in the homepage of the current site?
<charlie-tca> The links appear to be much smaller fonts the the text, which is going to make them much harder to read
<UndiFineD> no in your previous sentence
<yaili> UndiFineD: oh sorry, I'll make them shorter :(
<UndiFineD> :)
<yaili> charlie-tca: correct, thanks for pointing that out, making a note
<charlie-tca> What is the possiblity of looking at maybe bold fonts for links?
<yaili> what is your view on in-browser alternate style sheets vs. in-website?
<UndiFineD> yaili, and what about spoken text ?
<yaili> charlie-tca: it might be an option
<yaili> UndiFineD: what do you mean?
<charlie-tca> If it allows me to have the text grow better, and change the links to something visible, I have no preference on where or how it happens.
<UndiFineD> so a visitor can listen to the text on the site
<charlie-tca> Does in-browser style sheet mean I could easily change things to make it easier for me, individually?
<UndiFineD> pages should be read as a book
<yaili> charlie-tca: I think with in-browser you basically have a few options of different style sheets
<hajour> blind people need on this moment very much help to install ubuntu. if you make a spoken audio or vid. they dont need so much help to go read or they use ubuntu
<yaili> charlie-tca: you change it in the View option, I think, for example in Firefox
<yaili> hajour: on the install page?
<charlie-tca> That would be fine, if those who need it the most can get to it easily. 
<hajour> this also is needed on the install page
<charlie-tca> There seems to be something that says "if you really need this, we will hide it for you". 
<yaili> charlie-tca: what do you mean?
<AlanBell> there are some strange links in the tab order on ubuntu.com around the banner slider thing
<yaili> AlanBell: ah I see
<charlie-tca> If there is an alternate style sheet in the browser, and those with visually disability have to search all over to find it, we are catering to the able body person. 
<AlanBell> just going through it in firefox with orca
<yaili> charlie-tca: I see
<charlie-tca> It leave the partially blind with the difficulty of trying to search for it
<yaili> AlanBell: the homepage is being redesigned too
<hajour> is there a option to choose style  sheet ? i not have found it .
<charlie-tca> hajour: doesn't exist yet
<hajour> a ok
<charlie-tca> If we make an alternate style sheet, it should be very easy to find
<hajour> o and a spoken audio like spoken book by classes info should be very nice to
<yaili>  in Firefox that is under View > Page Style
<hajour> i also mean by the program classes
<yaili> hajour: can you think of a website that does that nicely, it would be good to see good examples
<hajour> i don't think its somewwhere allready
<charlie-tca> Should that happen, I would hope the reference for it would be on this page also. 
<hajour> but it would be awesome if it would come by ubuntu
<yaili> :)
<yaili> charlie-tca: you mean the homepage?
<charlie-tca> Yes, sorry. Where you have the paragraph about accessibility being there, a sentence about style sheets in the browser would be helpful.
<charlie-tca> (if it comes about)
<yaili> charlie-tca: so if we do add one or a couple of alternative stylesheets, what colour combinations do you think should take priority? low contrast, high contrast, â¦?
<charlie-tca> I would think we want low contrast, high contrast, and high contrast inverted to start with
<charlie-tca> That gives combinations that cover about 90% of the visually disabled
<leoquant> : http://www.nvbs.nl/  lees voor
<UndiFineD> yaili, I am in the process of developing these pages: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7607669/SC/index.xhtml
<leoquant> or uitgebreid voorlezen
<UndiFineD> nice example leoquant 
<UndiFineD> that page reads to the user
<UndiFineD> at "lees voor"
<yaili> thanks
<hajour> is there also a english version from that?
<hajour> you need to ppay for that leoquant 
<leoquant> hajour, sure, there are also sites how to build audio into websites
<hajour> ok nice
<hajour> because we can understand that but many from ubuntu don't
<leoquant> hajour, you need to be a member to play the read/audio part of the site? hmmm
<yaili> have you had any problems with using different browsers?
<hajour> the search engine would be more improved
<yaili> hajour: ah yes, that is on the list :)
<yaili> it is terrible
<hajour> its very hard to find a wiki from a person.
<charlie-tca> yaili: yes, different browsers are an issue. Firefox is the overall best one so far.
<charlie-tca> midori did away with the menu bar
<hajour> also it costed me very much time to find the pages from classes
<charlie-tca> chromium is failing badly
<charlie-tca> epiphany I haven't tried this release
<hajour> for example
<hajour> last from chromium had freeze very often my notebook.
<leoquant> <hajour> you need to ppay for that leoquant  thats  not true by the way
<hajour> because of that i could not do internet banking
<hajour> it says by me for to be able to use that you need to pay 32 euro a year leoquant 
<hajour> i now only use firefox at the moment
<leoquant> no you could hear the info without costs, i hear it loud and clear
<hajour> yes the info from what it do
<yaili> hajour: we've been testing on Firefox 3+, Safari, Chrome, Operaâlatest versions, IE6+
<yaili> not everything looks exactly the same though, surely
<hajour> the problem whit chromium comes on the moment there comes a frame in a frame
<hajour> then the trouble start
<hajour> i think its a problem whit some older pc s and notebooks
<hajour> because my daughters use unbuntu and i lubuntu .
<hajour> we have the same problems whit chromium browser
<hajour> so it have nothing to do with lubuntu
<hajour> i have test it out
<yaili> I need to go soon, if you had to list the top 3 things that could be improved in our sites
<yaili> re: accessibility
<yaili> what would those be?
<hajour> the only one here at home who had not that problem was UndiFineD  but he cot a new pc
<charlie-tca> as they exist or that new page?
<hajour> 1 app for choose colour fonts.
<hajour> 2 audio hit explane how to install ubuntu
<hajour> 3 possibility choose sdtyle sheet
<charlie-tca> resizable page, instead of fixed width
<charlie-tca> contrast between text and background
<hajour> good one charlie-tca 
<charlie-tca> When I grow the fonts big, the fixed width page screws the text readability up
<yaili> charlie-tca: do you mean setting the width in relative size or making it go full width?
<hajour> o and i hope you go try to get audio by classes info .
<charlie-tca> Making the width variable, so when text grows to, say 25 or 30pt, I don't have words split between lines because the page is too narrow
<yaili> charlie-tca: but if the CSS is made well enough, will the split lines be a problem?
<hajour> yes that problem i have to charlie-tca 
<yaili> because sometimes wouldn't the user want to just resize the text?
<UndiFineD> 1. stylesheets, 2. fontsize, 3. spoken text
<yaili> without adding horizontal scrolling?
<charlie-tca> yes, because the a long word won't fit the narrow page, no matter how good the css is
<hajour> and that can be solved by not use so much long lines
<charlie-tca> try hitting Ctrl++ about 10 times on the page
<hajour> and not attache lines to each other
<yaili> charlie-tca: is that a scenario that happens often?
<charlie-tca> yes
<hajour> also do not use to much difficult english words.
<charlie-tca> My minimum fonts are set to 16pt now
<charlie-tca> and yet, many times, I have to zoom to see the words
<hajour> not all people who want to use ubuntu can read very good english
<UndiFineD> yaili, http://achecker.ca/checker/index.php
<hajour> size 16 here to
<charlie-tca> Your page is written in 12 and 13pt fonts, I have to start at 16pt
<yaili> charlie-tca: so you think the horizontal scrolling that comes with completely zoomed in pages is not a problem in itself?
<charlie-tca> The horizontal scrolling is not as much of a problem as a word that splits itself into two lines
<charlie-tca> It is very hard to read words that are not all on the same line. 
<yaili> charlie-tca: ok
<yaili> charlie-tca: I see
<charlie-tca> it is like reading ac
<charlie-tca> ce
<charlie-tca> ss
<charlie-tca> or
<charlie-tca> ie
<charlie-tca> s
<yaili> hajour: you said "i hope you go try to get audio by classes info"
<yaili> hajour: I don't understand :(
<hajour> yes
<hajour> people who want to learn design or program by example . but not can read good or have eye problems. use on schools sopken books
<hajour> in classes in ubuntu all comes later on wiki s for remember
<hajour> but very hard to read for a part of the people
<UndiFineD> Known Problems(10) Likely Problems (0) Potential Problems (468) HTML Validation (0) CSS Validation (562)
<Pendulum> hajour: that's not really the same issue as what we're talking about with the website.
<hajour> it will make the wall smaller to walk over.for to do more in ubuntu.and get the feeling to can help really  more
<charlie-tca> yaili: I apologize if I am come across as just complaining. 
<UndiFineD> Known Problems(4) Likely Problems (25) Potential Problems (364) HTML Validation (0) CSS Validation (562)
<UndiFineD> that is from WCAG and Stanca Act
<hajour> for to be able learning by eexample solve bugs
<yaili> charlie-tca: not complaining, you're being helpful
<yaili> charlie-tca: I have to apologise because we won't have time to make many of these changes in time for release, but we want to know what we should include in our plans
<charlie-tca> If we can get some things done, we are happy for the most part.
<hajour> btw yaili  try to make why tto use ubuntu in so easy as possible english words.a child must be able to read it.ubuntu is world wide.
<yaili> in terms of the background/contrast, is there a more reliable tool that we can refer to?
<UndiFineD> yaili, I think it is already great having you here, it means things can improve
<charlie-tca> We just find it frustrating when we can't read the official website without great difficulty
<erkan^> which software can I install for a speaking training ?
<hajour> not all people can read good english
<charlie-tca> I have not found any reliable tool for contrast. 
<charlie-tca> AlanBell: do you know of any?
<yaili> UndiFineD: thanks :)
<erkan^> Over two days come guidedog-school and guide dog on visit by me
<AlanBell> charlie-tca: it can probably be done with compiz filters
<hajour> sorry for having so much remarks on the site yaili 
<yaili> hajour: no, I think we should be sorry :) you've been trying to help and providing feedback, we just need to start incorporating that in the processes rather than making it an afterthought
<yaili> oh
<yaili> sorry for the long line :(
<hajour> np my meds starting to work and it is going some easier now
<hajour> also typing.its still not very fast because i type whit only 1 finger
<UndiFineD> yaili, as I pointed out with the checker, there are many issues with the current css for ubuntu.com
<UndiFineD> the html issues are mostly easily resolved
<yaili> UndiFineD: yes, that's something we need to do gradually though, as it is tied with the implementation of drupal, and that needs to be updated
<yaili> UndiFineD: same for CSS, as you can see it's importing many unnecessary style sheets
<yaili> so no online contrast checker that is reliable? that would be extremely helpfulâ¦
<UndiFineD> yaili, http://achecker.ca/checker/index.php
<UndiFineD> that helps me a lot
<yaili> UndiFineD: ah of course, thanks :)
<UndiFineD> it also checks for contrast a bit
<hajour> UndiFineD,  is also busy to make a full accessible website for speechcontrol :)
<yaili> :)
<yaili> ok, I need to go now, this was great, thank you
<hajour> o for i forget Pendulum  i can be less around tomorrow because i need to arrange things like meds passport and passport for to go to uds in may
<yaili> I'll be on the channel anyway
<UndiFineD> yaili, feel free to drop back in any time
<hajour> i hope i have helped
<yaili> UndiFineD: sure
<yaili> hajour: immensely, thanks
<charlie-tca> yaili: thanks for giving us the opportunity to discuss this with you
<hajour> ok nice .was a lisstle felling like only complaining :)
<hajour> little i mean
<hajour> bah i not must try to type faster
<yaili> hajour: no worries :)
<yaili> charlie-tca: thanks!
<charlie-tca> I agree, hajour 
<Pendulum> yaili: thank you so much for coming!
<charlie-tca> It is very difficult to discuss such things without feeling like I am complaining more than helping.
<yaili> Pendulum: thank you :D
<hajour> thank you for listen yaili 
<yaili> charlie-tca: well, on my side, I feel like we could do a lot more, baby steps :)
<yaili> you'll have to bear with us
<charlie-tca> We will try to be patient
<hajour> btw yaili  if the accessibility is better i am able to get ubuntu to be used by primary schools 18 from it in netherland
<hajour> for to start
<charlie-tca> I think it is a lot to throw at you, and yet, we sometimes feel like things are crawling too slow.
<yaili> charlie-tca: so do we, there's things we can definitely do more easily than others
<yaili> well, I'm off for today, have great day, and thanks
<hajour> because i am also busy to get schools go use ubuntu/edubuntu 
<hajour> ok have a nice day by yaili 
<hajour> erkan^,  you allready had get a answer on your question from which software to use for speaking training ?
<erkan^> fyes
<erkan^> *yes
<erkan^> sorry
<erkan^> no, hajour
<hajour> sorry for the delay in answering erkan^  but needed to concentrate wile my meds not where working almost
<erkan^> i don't care, i have seen that you had busy with another cliÃ«nt speak (-:
<charlie-tca> erkan^: the guide-dog is great news for you
<hajour> ok just wanted to let you now the reason erkan^  :)
<erkan^> yes, that is quick. i thought that next years , charlie-tca (-:
<hajour> yes very good that you get a guide dog erkan^ 
<erkan^> I will wait normal 2 years , but i take a guide dog after 11 mouths
<charlie-tca> Wonderful! 
<hajour> what can the guide dog do for you out side the walking part
<hajour> erkan^, ^
<charlie-tca> Sometimes things do work out for us.
<erkan^> commando
<hajour> by example ?
<erkan^> yes, but i have problem speak --> commando )-: i take a logopedie. but i want on computer too for speaking traing
<erkan^> over, vooraan, links, rechts, rechtsom, ook naam noemen, enzovoort
<erkan^> zoek paal 
<hajour> UndiFineD,  says congrats erkan^ 
<erkan^> thank you :)
<erkan^> but first see or i and guide dog fit good 
<hajour> charlie-tca,  and AlanBell  is there already a speak program what is able for simple commands to speak out ?
<hajour> yes i understand erkan^ 
<erkan^> (-:
<hajour> we still wworking on speechcontrol erkan^ 
<erkan^> yes i know
<hajour> when you will need it erkan^ ?
<erkan^> but i want simple speaking, without difficult words 
<erkan^> no idea, next week i have an appointment with a logopedie
<hajour> yes i have ask for that above erkan^  :)
<erkan^> above?
<hajour> just stay logged in erkan^  they read back later
<hajour> eerder in chat / hier boven = above erkan^ 
<erkan^> ja
<erkan^> hajour: I'm going to eat soon afterwards I go to visit. I'm at about 9 hours back, okay?
<charlie-tca> hajour: I don't know the applications that well.
<hajour> ok erkan^  then i am also around again.i need to go to cook so
<AlanBell> yaili: thanks very much (sorry, got called away for a bit at the end)
<erkan^> ok (-:
<yaili> AlanBell: no worrries
<hajour> and ok charlie-tca  :)
<erkan^> i go eat now laters
<erkan^> I am back (-:
<erkan^> oh nee ik ga effe wasmachine aanzetten brb (-:
<erkan^> hajour, 
<erkan^> ik ben terug
<erkan^> (-:
<erkan^> en ?
<erkan^> oeps sorry for dutch
<erkan^> I remember
<erkan^> I am back 
<erkan^> and ?
<erkan^> (-:
<hajour> hi erkan^ 
<hajour> i do not know what kind of software you need .thats why i had asked it to AlanBell 
<hajour> maybe he knows it erkan^ 
<hajour> but he is on away
<hajour> charlie-tca,  ddo you know who erkan^  can asked it about the software?
<charlie-tca> AlanBell knows the software the best
<hajour> btw i am very tired and i just was preparing to go to sleep
<charlie-tca> Ask him specifically here, he will probably answer before long
<hajour> erkan^,  see charlie-tca  answer
<hajour> sorry all but i ggo sleeping
<hajour> goodnight
<erkan^> ok
<erkan^> goodnight, hajour 
<erkan^> charlie-tca, : http://www.intaal.nl/site/intaal_shopprod.php?artcode=400001
<erkan^> 370 euro :/
<hajour> goodnight erkan^ :)
<AlanBell> then hi all
<Pendulum> o/ AlanBell 
<charlie-tca> Hello, AlanBell 
<charlie-tca> Is there any software for speech therapy/learning?
<AlanBell> what sort of speech therapy?
<charlie-tca> learning how to speak
<AlanBell> for children? or for fixing a speech impediment?
<charlie-tca> Teaching a spoken language
<charlie-tca> erkan^: ^ ^
<erkan^> yes
<charlie-tca> what are you trying to do? learn spoken words?
<AlanBell> teaching an adult a foreign language?
<charlie-tca> I think he has to learn a few spoken commands for a guide dog
<erkan^> AlanBell: Over two days come a guide dog visit by me. I want learn that I can speak words as left, right, go, stop, etc. i have a software on computer need, than can computer control or i speak good. i am deaf too. i have a speech teacher too, but i want a software on pc.
<erkan^> yes charlie-tca 
<AlanBell> ok, so you can see, but are deaf?
<charlie-tca> and needs to learn simple word speech
<erkan^> i can littel see
<erkan^> but on computer i have not problem
<erkan^> yes i am deaf AlanBell 
<erkan^>  have you expierence with deaf people, AlanBell ? :S
<AlanBell> some people use Audacity for some speech therapy work, mainly copying others and dealing with stutters and stammers and timing issues
<AlanBell> I used to work with a deaf person and one of my friends has deaf parents
<erkan^> ok
<AlanBell> and when I set up astoryforbedtime.com there was quite a bit of interest from the deaf community which surprised me
<AlanBell> but deaf parents really liked the idea of their kids listening to a mixture of voices of hearing people
<AlanBell> because speech development for CODAs is often a bit disrupted even if the children have no hearing issues
<erkan^> i know CODA
<AlanBell> Child Of Deaf Adult for those not familiar with the abbreviation
<erkan^> i ask you
<erkan^> can deaf people learn speak for a software on computer, AlanBell ?
<AlanBell> really not sure
<erkan^> easy speak example "left" "right" etc..
<erkan^> ow ok
<maco> i suspect youd need something that tells you how to position your lips and tongue and which ways to move them
<maco> (i find that useful when im learning another language and can't figure out how to make my mouth form the sounds necessary for the language)
<erkan^> when I speak, my voice probably deaf language :-S
<JanC> speech command software can work with whatever sound you make, as long as you have a different sound for every command
<JanC> but learning to say things correctly is also useful when you are around other people of course  ;)
<AlanBell> I would expect a dog would be able to reprogram itself too :)
<erkan^> JanC, ik wil een eenvoudige woorden kunnen oefenen zoals links, rechts, vooraan, stop enzovoort zonder zin uitspreken, want de zin is erg ingewikkeld voor me. )-: 
<JanC> I guess you can see if you say it more or less right by comparing the sine waves (e.g. in Audacity, like AlanBell said) of a recording of yourself and a correctly pronounced version
<AlanBell> nah, that won't work
<AlanBell> you would be able to visually see volume and timing, tone is more detailed than you can do in your head
<JanC> hm, maybe after applying some "effect" on the data?
<AlanBell> well if you did a fast fourier transform you would be able to see the component sine waves (roughly speaking) but it isn't really going to help you learn to copy or say a particular waveform
<AlanBell> http://manual.audacityteam.org/man/Analyze_Menu
<AlanBell> http://manual.audacityteam.org/man/Track_Drop-Down_Menu
<AlanBell> all interesting stuff that I am sure a therapist could use, but I don't think it is stuff that you can use to self-teach easily
<JanC> well, he's not going to self-teach I think, but wants to use it in between or after sessions with his speech therapist?
<JanC> I remember the audio lab at the college where I worked for some time had expensive Windows software  :-(
<JanC> and of course it was written for Win 9x   :P
<erkan^> I go sleep now
<erkan^> i am tired
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-04-12
<j1mc> hi all - anyone around?
<j1mc> brb... need to reboot
<j1mc> hi all
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-04-13
<AlanBell> which persona do you want to do next?
<AlanBell> we have John who is deaf, Simon who is partially sighted, Henrietta who has cognitive issues?
<charlie-tca> Orca does not tell me what the windows are in the installation for beta2
<charlie-tca> It only reads the keypresses
<charlie-tca> ooops
<charlie-tca> maybe stopping to file bugs screws up orca, If I don't interrupt the installation filing bugs, it seems to read most of it, anyway
<maco> charlie-tca: what did it say on the partitioning page?
<maco> did it read the labels or the variable names for the radio buttons?
<maco> (i dont know if that patch was merged yet)
<charlie-tca> Nothing, I filed two bugs before I got that far, and it quit reading
<charlie-tca> Starting over, will let you know
<charlie-tca> maco: not the labels
<maco> ok
<charlie-tca> At least not what is visible during an install
<maco> TheMuso: i know that patch isnt perfect, but since it's an improvement over the current situation, can you merge it anyway?  High -> Papercut seems worth it to me
<charlie-tca> If I didn't have a lot of experience, I don't think I would know what to do with it
<maco> charlie-tca: the papercutness of the patch im asking him about is that with the patch it reads the label then says the variable name. without it, just the variable name. so with it, it's a bit ugly but at least it's informative, whereas without, it's just ugly
<charlie-tca> Great! We could do with something more than what it gives.
<charlie-tca> Not sure that this install is okay, if moving the mouse kills orca for the installation
<charlie-tca> The user still needs to know what the screens say
<maco> moving the mouse killed orca?
<maco> luke says he thinks the stuff to make the page titles be read will need to be a change to the ubiquity script in orca, not a change to orca itself
<maco> in order to tell orca what to read
<maco> because by default it just reads widgets that can have focus
<maco> but need to get accerciser to see ubiquity to fix the scripts, and ubiquity runs as root while accerciser dies if you try to sudo it
<charlie-tca> Yeah, either moving it or using it once to click made it lose the words completely. All it will say after that is the keypress. As far as orca is concerned the pages are blank
<maco> wow thats a change from a week ago
<charlie-tca> heh, a lot changed in a week
<TheMuso> maco: Could you propose it for merging? Evan or Colin may get to it, I'm rather busy atm.
<TheMuso> maco: But I'll give it a look when I get the chance.
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-04-14
<burt> fbcmd
<burt> q
<burt> exit
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-04-15
<Pendulum> apinheiro: TheMuso: do either of you know what the status is of accessibility in Unity 2D or is that going to be a 'next cycle' issue?
<apinheiro> Pendulum, sorry, I don't know anything about unity 2d accessibility
<apinheiro> but i guess that it would be "bad"
<apinheiro> as with any other qt based app
 * Pendulum suspects she will not be able to use Ubuntu past 11.04 :-/
<Pendulum> (unless somehow Unity 2D is made accessible in time for when they remove the Classic Gnome fallback)
<apinheiro> Pendulum, classic gnome fallback will be removed from ubuntu?
<Pendulum> apinheiro: yes. It's been said a couple places that with 11.10, it'll be Unity 3D and Unity 2D
<Pendulum> (at least according to Mark)
<apinheiro> Pendulum, ok, that was totally new to me, it seem that I missed that couple places
<Pendulum> I don't remember if he explicitly said it on his blog post about 2D, but I've seen it mentioned on a bug and somewhere else that I can't remember
<issyl0> That's not terribly conducive to wide use, is it?  :-/
<charlie-tca> Pendulum: Most of the issues got magically fixed for beta2. The big issue I see yet is the search box in Unity 3D.
<Pendulum> charlie-tca: which issues?
<charlie-tca> Most of the things that were broken bad. I did not check orca in 3D, but unity during testing was much better than even Beta1
<charlie-tca> I was able to run a screen-reader install, even, and orca starts at login to the classic desktop
<charlie-tca> there was even a launcher for applications on the Launcher bar now
<Pendulum> *nods*
<Pendulum> that's a win :)
<charlie-tca> um, I didn't check things in 2D :-(
<charlie-tca> I will throw my nvidia card in and test it this weekend, if you want me to
<Pendulum> charlie-tca: I didn't expect you too as it's not shipping on the CD this time, I don't think
<AlanBell> I was just going to say I don't think unity2d is an available option yet
<Pendulum> I was just trying to get a sense of where we are now and where it needs to get to by 11.10
<Pendulum> AlanBell: I think there's a PPA
<charlie-tca> I thought it was in the repositories
 * charlie-tca goes hide again. better keep quiet and see where things are
<Pendulum> heh
<maco> charlie-tca: the search box has a patch thanks to DBO, it's just likely to be a 0-day SRU
<Pendulum> maco: you haven't heard anything about Unity 2D a11y have you? other than the part where we know Riddell did something to help get Qt working with a11y
<Riddell> Pendulum: there is none, it's QML which has none
<maco> no i dont
<maco> Riddell: what does that qt-at-spi package do?
<Pendulum> Riddell: is this going to be fixed before we lose Classic Gnome in 11.10?
<Riddell> maco: that does traditional Qt widgets (and it's far from complete)
<maco> Riddell: do you have commit access to lp:unity?
<Riddell> Pendulum: nope
<Riddell> maco: I've no idea
<Pendulum> so in other words a11y if you can't do 3D is going to be gone from 11.10
<Riddell> Pendulum: unless there's a major effort by someone to bring AT to QML
<maco> erm not what i ment
<Pendulum> there goes my ability to use Ubuntu :(
<maco> sorry, do you have access to *ubiquity*
<Riddell> Pendulum: but maybe qt-at-spi will be ready then and you can come over to Kubuntu :)
<Riddell> maco: yes
<maco> Riddell: launchpad says yes!  can you do a merge for me?
<Riddell> maco: I can if it's appropriate for post beta
<Pendulum> Riddell: tbh, I will stop using any *buntu in protest and be loud about it if that's really what happens
<maco> Riddell: https://code.launchpad.net/~maco.m/ubiquity/bug749653/+merge/57772
<maco> Riddell: makes ubiquity more accessible. changes functionality for able-bodied people not at all
<maco> (i put cjwatson because luke suggested colin or ev, but if you're here...)
<Riddell> Pendulum: so in protest at Kubuntu getting AT you'd stop using any ubuntu? :(
<maco> in protest to ubuntu-desktop team being ...having their anteriors rerouted to their posteriors
<maco> or to the project leadership having that routing
<charlie-tca> Isn't that a step the wrong way if Kubuntu gets accessibility at the cost of Ubuntu losing it?
<maco> since...there are people who can set priorities, and this is apparently not one of them for the overarching ubuntu project
<Pendulum> Riddell: maco's got it
<Pendulum> so, which mailing list should I be raising this on?
<maco> ubuntu-devel
<maco> or hmm
<maco> ayatana
<Riddell> maco: you seem to be merging in merge conflicts there
<maco> 11.10 discussion is starting on -devel
<maco> Riddell: i think its just that my branch is a week old and colin's done a release since then
<Riddell> maco: I'm not sure I understand what all that atk stuff does, can you explain it?
<maco> Riddell: for each radio button and label, im requesting an accessible version (get_accessible()) then setting relationships between them:   label labels radio button,  radio button is labeled by label
<maco> this way when the radio button is given focus by tabbing, it speaks the label
<Riddell> maco: don't radio buttons already have their label as part of their widgets?
<maco> Riddell: welcome to gtk
<maco> do you want me to rearrange the debian/changelog for colin having done a release?
<Riddell> maco: no I can do that easily enough
<maco> for future reference, i have a bzr question.... is it possible to change a commit message? like say if you typed the wrong commit message in the wrong window, or used -m inappropriately...?
<maco> i wonder if this patch is still valid https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubiquity/+bug/550717
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 550717 in ubiquity "[Lucid] two accessiblity related bug with Ubiquity, with easy to fix" [High,Triaged]
<maco> charlie-tca, AlanBell did you say orca stopped reading for you the other day?
<AlanBell> it worked for me, I think that was charlie-tca 
<Riddell> maco: merged!
<charlie-tca> yes
<Riddell> maco: but you should bzr update before doing a merge proposal to stop conflicts
<charlie-tca> maco: when I clicked the mouse on the network applet, and when I clicked on an apport window
<maco> Riddell: thanks
<paul_h1> Pendulum: just catching up on history... why are you concerned about unity in the 11.10 release?
<Pendulum> paul_h1: Unity 2D (not the same as Unity 3D which is what's in Natty) will be replacing classic gnome from everything I've been told
<paul_h1> Pendulum: and unity 2D is being built with QML?
<Pendulum> right
<paul_h1> Pendulum: you'd think after building an (initially) inaccessible 3D unity then having to put a big effort into making it accessible they'd have learnt something...
<Pendulum> paul_h1: it's because of the QML thing, I guess
<paul_h1> Pendulum: it's because they're more concerned about making it pretty than about making sure everyone can use it :)
<Pendulum> paul_h1: that too, but I try to be politic sometimes
<paul_h1> Pendulum: are you raising the point anywhere?
<Pendulum> paul_h1: I'm trying to decide the best place to raise it
<paul_h1> Pendulum: could always try emailing Mark Shuttleworth :)
<charlie-tca> Pendulum: not sure where to raise it. There was a user test posted on ubuntu-devel, most users could not use unity. The comments are it is great! 
<charlie-tca> The fact it i
<charlie-tca> the fact it was unusable, is because it is new. 
<charlie-tca> If eleven of eleven can't use it, that makes it good??
<Pendulum> charlie-tca: I loved the usre comments
<Pendulum> charlie-tca: did you see the question about changing to classic from log in? do you know if there's a way to either make orca work before the user is logged in or where i should go poking?
<paul_h1> Pendulum: plenty of people on the orca list have orca running on the gdm screen so it's certainly possible
<Pendulum> paul_h1: yeah, that's what I thought. I just don't use orca so have no idea how to tell the person to set it up
<paul_h1> Pendulum: I'll see if I can get it going :) nevewr tried before, never really had the need for orca at the gdm prompt.
<Pendulum> paul_h1: also, don't know if it makes a difference that the person on the ubuntu-accessibility list seems to be using Natty
<paul_h1> Pendulum: there is an accessible login page on the orca wiki. I seriously doubt anything on it would apply to natty (or even maverick) looks archaic, some of it
<Pendulum> :-/
<paul_h1> can the environment you boot into be selected with the keyboard? perhaps just providing instructions on how to do it would be best
<maco> O_O 1900 bugs in ubiquity. wow
<charlie-tca> Pendulum: the only way I know is he will need a sighted person to change it over. 
<charlie-tca> maco: half are mine ;-)
<charlie-tca> Went fertilizer shopping; back now
<maco> i wrote a not-yet-tested patch for another a11y bug in ubiquity
<charlie-tca> Yay!
<charlie-tca> I can test them, if you tell how to get in there.
<UndiFineD> <nagappan> this is interesting ! https://live.gnome.org/Accessibility/TestingDistro
<UndiFineD> <nagappan> just noticed in #a11y
<UndiFineD> Pendulum, AlanBell, hajour ^^
<hajour> hi all
<j1mc> charlie-tca: fertilizer shopping? :)
<hajour> nice accessibility tools testing
<hajour> hi j1mc  :)
<j1mc> hi hajour 
<UndiFineD> charlie-tca is being silly, paying for horse poo
<hajour> i not remember that i have see your name earlier
<hajour> j1mc, ^
<hajour> lol UndiFineD 
<j1mc> hajour: i am new here. i am working on ubuntu-docs, but ubuntu-accessibility is (in my mind) a family member of accessibility.
<hajour> btw Pendulum  , AlanBell  and charlie-tca  and the rest. UndiFineD  and i are probably not around tomorrow we go to ubuntu local jam
<hajour> a ok welcome j1mc 
<charlie-tca> j1mc: gotta make the grass green again
<charlie-tca> UndiFineD, hajour : ever tried using that with Unti
<hajour> normally i am more around in chat.but last 2/3 weeks i am struggling reading logs
<charlie-tca> UndiFineD, hajour : ever tried using that with Unity?
<UndiFineD> no, I just learned of it a few minutes ago
<UndiFineD> I am not that fast
<charlie-tca> that's why we have to write something for us to use... :-)
<charlie-tca> It is a great resource to start at, though
<hajour> just have seen it from the link from UndiFineD  if that is what you mean charlie-tca 
<charlie-tca> I am not sure even Gnome3 passes it now
<charlie-tca> We have references to it on the wiki
<hajour> UndiFineD,  have trouble with reading to  if it is a lot
<hajour> also he have problems with reading small fonts like size 12
 * UndiFineD prefers 14px
<charlie-tca> It is very good material. It gives a place to start when we are trying to define tests
<hajour> its nice it is there now thought
<charlie-tca> Yes.
 * hajour got fonts size 16 here in chat.it could not come bigger.but i prefer size 18
<charlie-tca> UndiFineD: I don't think it is horse poo, more like steer :-)
<hajour> btw i got a consult this week by office for adjust work
<hajour> or i will go fit there
<charlie-tca> hajour: great!
<UndiFineD> charlie-tca, did you taste it ?
<UndiFineD> :P
<charlie-tca> um, no
<charlie-tca> but I smelled it. PHew!
<UndiFineD> hahah
<hajour> o groose UndiFineD 
<hajour> bleh
<hajour> watch out UndiFineD  else i give it to you for breakfast
<charlie-tca> woo! that would be bad, too.
<hajour> farms all around here so ... :P
<UndiFineD> farmers here only have chocolate sauce
<hajour> but charlie-tca  if they decide i fit there i come on the waiting list and then have to wait 4 till 7 years for its my turn.if i am lucky.it can also be 10 years
<hajour> yak UndiFineD 
<hajour> he means cow poo
<hajour> btw i am nagging them to help with paying to extend my passport by government
<hajour> if i get chance on work i will really need my passport
<hajour> also for uds btw :S
<charlie-tca> yup
<charlie-tca> yes
<charlie-tca> Sooner you get on the list, the better, right?
<hajour> o hope i not have said something  wrong here
<hajour> yes
<charlie-tca> We have to get away from the cow talk
<hajour> XD
<charlie-tca> but at least the words were clean, even if the rest is not.
<hajour> i will go try to let them see ubuntu as official volunteer work. maybe i get then some money from government.solution .they are rid of me and i can then full time work on ubuntu
<hajour> no i got and maybe it will become a yes
<hajour> i can always try
<charlie-tca> that's the way to do it.
<charlie-tca> If you don't try, you don't know.
<hajour> and then i not have to wait 4 till 7 years
<hajour> yes thought so to
<hajour> anyway i let see i want to work i think
<hajour> and maybe if it becomes a yes that i will get some support for a more adjust pc for to work on
<Pendulum> hajour: have fun!
<Pendulum> UndiFineD: yeah, that's pretty brand new
<Pendulum> (the testing distro)
<TheMuso> Riddell: Kubuntu gettina 11y will be more than just qQT at-spi. I dare say much work will be needed on KDE before users can properly use it with screen readers etc.
 * TheMuso groans. QML? :S
<Pendulum> TheMuso: am I right that it makes sense to start campaigning now for Classic Desktop to be kept around as a fallback for a while?
<TheMuso> Pendulum: I think so.
<TheMuso> Even if qt AT-spi is completed, teh fact that a markup language is being used to design a GUI brings all kinds of yuck.
<Pendulum> yeah
<TheMuso> What sucks even more, is that unity 2d and 3D are different code bases, so I don't even think 2d has the good keyboard shortcuts we need.
<paul_h1> or offer gnome-shell as an alternative? (assuming the gnome a11y team get that working properly)
<TheMuso> GNome shell being in universe, will not be possible unless Canonical are willing to support it, which I doubt.
<Pendulum> also isn't Gnome Shell 3D?
<TheMuso> Yes.
<TheMuso> Yeah I am thinking teh same as you, we need to take care of those who don't have the drivers etc installed, and lots of blind people don't use a monitor.
<Pendulum> so will have the same problems for that as Unity 3D does
<TheMuso> Yep.
<Pendulum> I have to run my main machine on a VM so that I can use voice recognition on really bad days
<paul_h1> didn't realise that, why are ui's being designed that can't function without 3d acceleration
<TheMuso> Because the vast majority of video hardware sold in the last 5 years or so is 3D capable.
<TheMuso> Even my old thinkpad from 2004 can run unity
<TheMuso> Granted that is with a Radeon chip.
<Pendulum> *nods*
<paul_h1> but there's a growing trend towards running the same ui's on devices like smart phones and the like. surely a toolkit should utilise the capabilities of the hardware it's running on but be able to fall back if the hardware can't support everything it offers?
<TheMuso> Yes but smart phone hardware is increasingly able to do 3D.
<Pendulum> I was serious earlier, though, that if we get stuck with only Unity 2d & 3D and I can't use it, then I will be very vocal with why I can no longer use Ubuntu
<TheMuso> I can understand that.
<TheMuso> Its hard for me to protest, given I am a Canonical employee.
<paul_h1> yep, why do you need to run within a vm Pendulum?
<TheMuso> if not impossible really.
<Pendulum> (I'll probably stick around parts within the community, like here, but it'll tell a hell of a lot to get me using it and recommending it in that situation)
<TheMuso> Well, XFCE is coming along well with a11y, so that may be the next go-to point.
<Pendulum> paul_h1: I have mobility issues and on really bad days I can barely use a mouse so need access to voice recognition software. there is no working voice recognition solution for Linux that I've found, but I can use MacSpeech dictate and it'll work with VMWare Fusion
<Pendulum> what gets me is the number of people who tell me that accessibility is a core value for Ubuntu (and by people I mean managers and higher in Canonical)
<Pendulum> and I always feel like I can't call them on it because I need to play nice to get stuff done
<Pendulum> I will stop playing nice if I just get screwed over by doing so
<TheMuso> Yeah, the tech gets built, and then a11y has to be added after the fact...
<paul_h1> supporting desktops like xfce is on the orca roadmap. whether they'll have the resources to get it working right any time soon is debatable
<TheMuso> paul_h1: XFCE upstrea are also doing all they can to get XFCE up to scratch with keyboard nav etc.
<TheMuso> upstream
<Pendulum> my own separate rant is the fact that a11y seems to keep getting talked about in terms of blind/visual impairment ignoring all the other groups where a11y is important, but that's separate from my annoyance with a11y in Ubuntu
<TheMuso> Yes, I'll second that.
<TheMuso> Its probably because in the Linux community at least, we are the largest group.
<Pendulum> yeah, I'm sure
<Pendulum> it doesn't just happen in Linux, but I see it more there because that's where I do stuff
<TheMuso> Yep.
<Pendulum> I suppose it's evening out with how in the physical world so many people equate access with wheelchair users ;-)
<paul_h1> wondering whose decision it was not to implement CSPI for the d-bus at-spi. so many projects were using it. including dasher and gnome voice control
<TheMuso> paul_h1: It was a matter of manpower, or a lack there of.
<TheMuso> paul_h1: It would have been kept if someone steped up to work on it.
<TheMuso> stepped
<paul_h1> well it seems there are c bindings to the new at-spi but they're incompatible with the old ones? the Accessibility/GNOME3 page says it wouldn't be that much work to write a compatibility layer between the two. would save quite a few projects it seems if someone did
<TheMuso> Yeah.
<maco> TheMuso: a11y's like security. bolting it on afterward works poorly
<TheMuso> maco: Hell yeah!
<maco> my dad guffawed when i said that no-i-will-not-do-this-on-your-website-because-its-inaccessible.  "blind people can't use computers, silly!"  *blink* *blink*
<TheMuso> haha
<TheMuso> Well, if things keep on going this way, I think Vinux will gain popularity and strength, since its Ubuntu based, but can move to whatever DE is accessible for users.
<maco> btw, TheMuso, i have another patch i'll be testing out tonight for more screenreaderiness in ubiquity. Riddell committed the other one
<TheMuso> maco: Sweet.
<TheMuso> maco: Thanks for your work, I should give ubiquity another look and see what I can do to make it better.
<maco> its just a little one though. making the "install" button actually say "install" not "forward" because nowadays apparently it installs after partitioning, not at the end, so if you dont know that it's the point of no return, then....ew
<paul_h1> yikes
<maco> TheMuso: if you can tell me how to get accerciser to see it, thatd be wonderful.  then i could attempt to work on that script in orca.
<TheMuso> maco: I'll see what I can do next week.
<paul_h1> TheMuso: is natty running the d-bus at-spi?
<TheMuso> paul_h1: Not by default, but it is available.
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-04-16
<maco> argh. when i hit "q" in a terminal, orca pops up asking if it's supposed to quit now. did i enable some sort of "steal keystrokes so i can't type" setting somehow?
#ubuntu-accessibility 2012-04-09
<IvanFetch> It looks like the installation process is broken, at least as of the 12.04 daily build from April 6th? The install window seems to freeze after entering your account info. I am not yet sure whether this happens when installing without Orca running.
<IvanFetch> Can anyone confirm they have also experienced this?
<IvanFetch> Hmm, just tried the same daily build in a virtual machine, on another box - it does install correctly. The above issue must be specific to my netbook's hardware.
<AlanBell> IvanFetch: I have installed the daily images quite a few times
<IvanFetch> AlanBell: Yes, since I installed the same image successfully in to a virtual machine, the issue must relate to my Netbook hardware - an EEPC Asus 1005-PEB.
<IvanFetch> I did already try disabling the onboard wired NIC (believed to be broadcom) - same result. I will keep looking.
#ubuntu-accessibility 2012-04-10
 * TheMuso nips the small amount of spam in the bud.
<TheMuso> on the ubuntu accessibility list that is.
#ubuntu-accessibility 2012-04-11
<openedbuntu> can i add an additional keyboard for a quadraplegic to work with their foot. and have it have a different keymapping. i really need a cli solution. because our hardware is so old. mostly running just bare bones xorg
<openedbuntu> it is really for them to be able to play games better- im not going to lie
<openedbuntu> they can type fine enough maybe 25 wom or something
<openedbuntu> wpm*
<openedbuntu> ^^ no ideas ?
<haylo> il leave haylo connected openedbuntu is just a live cd
<Dave_Hunt> This is another test of the pidgin casting system.  Trying to generate a 'debug.out' for Orca 3.5.1pre and the subject app.  
<Dave_Hunt> Hello Ubuntists!
<Dave_Hunt> Come on, Orca speak to me! 
<Dave_Hunt> Had to do orca --replace to get the pidgin script to load.  
<davmor2> Dave_Hunt: is it talking to you now?
<Dave_Hunt> Let's see...  
<Dave_Hunt> Yes, it is.  I then switched to t-bird; that script loaded; switched back to Pidgin, the whale is still talking. 
<Dave_Hunt> i tried to rebuild at-spi2-core, as suggested in a bug report comment, and that resulted in a bunch of compile-time warnings, and nothing installed...  
#ubuntu-accessibility 2012-04-12
<Dave_Hunt> Hello People!  
#ubuntu-accessibility 2012-04-14
<Dave_Hunt> Hello Peoples!  
<Dave_Hunt> Hello, all!  
#ubuntu-accessibility 2013-04-08
<jsgarvin> Hi Fudge  thanks for the response. sorry I didn't get back to you earlier, I've been out on vacation.   I'm not sure what you mean by "how are you trying to make orca read".    I've got orca running, and it reads it's own preferences dialog automatically as soon as that window has the focus.  However, when I give Firefox the focus (either with the keyboard or the mouse), absolutely nothing happens.  Is there something el
#ubuntu-accessibility 2015-04-11
<Texou> hi
#ubuntu-accessibility 2016-04-12
<zoomyzoom> Can I ask for help here or is this chat for devs?
#ubuntu-accessibility 2016-04-15
<abracadabrababy> Is this channel for devs or users?
#ubuntu-accessibility 2017-04-12
<b4n> TheMuso: hi!
<b4n> I'm working on a new SPD output module (landegave will submit it in a moment), and the engine itself doesn't support punctuation speech
<b4n> it works on Windows with NVDA (an open source screen reader), but that's because NVDA translates punctuation to actual words itself, before feeding it to its output modules
<TheMuso> b4n: I know speech-dispatcher does have different punctuation options, but withouth having a closer look, I cannot remember whether it relies on the synth to deal with it, or whether it does some processing itself.
<b4n> it relies on the synth to do it AFAICS
<b4n> and e.g. espeak can do it just fine
<b4n> the question is, would you accept a change that permits to spd to do the translation itself?
<b4n> it would be fairly complex, because it's not a straightfoward task; but I cuold base my work upon NVDA's, which is GPL2+
<b4n> and theirs apparently work well
<b4n> TheMuso: relevant NVDA sources include the pre-processig module (https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/blob/master/source/characterProcessing.py#L601) and the pre-processing rules (e.g. for en: https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/blob/master/source/locale/en/symbols.dic)
<TheMuso> Yes, I would certainly accept that. We could go in a couple of directions with this actually. First, we allow the user to choose whether the synth does the work, or spd itself. Then, later on, we expand things such that spd knows if a synth can do it, and if it can, it will let the synth do it, otherwise spd will do it.
<TheMuso> I've been thinking about this on and off or a while, but there are more pressing matters to deal with at the moment.
<b4n> actually having spd doing it has some advantages, like having a consistent punctuation set on all synths
<b4n> but ok, great, I'll start working on that than :)
<TheMuso> Yeah, this is true.
<TheMuso> b4n: BTW there is a speech-dispatcher channel here on freenode.
<b4n> oh
<TheMuso> #speech-dispatcher
<b4n> I'll join there then, would make more sense indeed
<TheMuso> Pretty quiet most of the time, but is used on occasion.
<b4n> OK, I'm there now
<TheMuso> Ok cool. I am idling in there pretty much all the time.
<landegave> TheMuso: hello. This is RaphaÃ«l who requested you for Kali. I would like now to propose another tts support. I need a branch baratinoo to make a pull request
<TheMuso> landegave: Are you saying you'd like a copy of speechd master on github to make a pull request against?
<b4n> (FWIW, I made the changes, but for future technical reasons I'll let landegave submit the branch so he can add stuff easily during review)
<TheMuso> landegave: Also as above, there is a speech-dispatcher channel on Freenode, #speech-dispatcher
<TheMuso> Ok no problem.
<b4n> TheMuso: no, the question is, against what to submit the PR
<b4n> master?  a specific branch that doesn't yet exist?
<landegave> TheMuso: yes I just yet see. Thanks.
<TheMuso> Oh, against master.
