#ubuntu-meeting 2004-12-22
<jdub> hola!
<Treenaks> jdub: well, start typing ;)
<ajmitch_> morning
<crimsun> moin
<jdub> introduction from mark
<jdub> mark is introducing carlos
<jdub> WELCOME! :)
<jdub> greatful for ubuntu meeting presentation in mataro
<ctd> Hello to jdub!
<jdub> commitment to free software from government
<jdub> laid down one year ago
<jdub> by three parties in catalonia
<jdub> facing a challenge of supporting this commitment
<jdub> beginning a process of migration
<jdub> to be applied throughout catalan government
<jdub> clear and decisive commitment to rights of users to choose their software
<jdub> commitment to catalan language, documentation in language
<jdub> free software is a unique opportunity for catalan culture and language
<jdub> catalonia interested in cutting edge technology, distribution and sharing - ubuntu is thus, important
<jdub> 'sharing knowledge in the information society is the same as sharing wealth'
<jdub> power is less concentrated
<jdub> gratitude to canonical for coming to mataro, for open sessions and opportunity for debian users and local developers
<jdub> thanks to mark shuttleworth for commitment to ubuntu, hispalinux and technocampus
<jdub> government and university working together to support the conference
<jdub> i wish you all a happy stay and many thanks
<jdub> (applause)
<jdub> mark: it is as important for us to work with local developers, as it is for local developers to work with a project that is global in scope
<jdub> look forward to a world where cultures can use technology within their culture
<jdub> phenomenal week
<jdub> the ubuntu team gets together every four months
<jdub> much participation from local developers
<jdub> thank you to alfonso for working with us
<jdub> mark and alfonso will be facilitating discussion about shared code, shared distribution
<jdub> collaboration within spain and around the world
<jdub> today we're talking about the platform for that collaboration
<jdub> alfonso:
<jdub> second version of guadalinex released a couple of months ago
<jdub> sponsored by andalucia
<jdub> based on linex from extremadura
<jdub> used by 100,000 computers at schools and libraries
<jdub> contact with all kinds of users
<jdub> provide technical and non-technical support
<jdub> good understanding of the needs of normal people
<jdub> problems -> needing a human oriented interface and developer issues, debian release, deriving
<jdub> a lot of local governments, making their own distributions (or planning to)
<jdub> not enough communicaiton
<jdub> lots of duplication
<jdub> need to delegate problem solving
<jdub> need a place to work together
<jdub> and a list of needs and problems, who is in charge of them
<jdub> a wishlist for developers and users
<jdub> mark:
<jdub> two extensions to launchpad we are working on
<jdub> distributed user support tool
<jdub> project management tool
<jdub> alfonso:
<jdub> we use normal mail, database of users, not enough for the problems we have
<jdub> mark:
<jdub> i am south african, my catalan is terrible, spanish is even worse
<jdub> jordi mallach to help with catalan translation
<jdub> javier explains in spanish
<jdub> obviously made good jokes
<jdub> :-)
<jdub> how many representatives of distributions do we have?
<jdub> debian
<jdub> ubuntu
<jdub> guadalinex
<jdub> lurix
<jdub> catix
<jdub> metadistros
<jdub> lux
<jdub> no name embedded distro :)
<jdub> we share 95% of code?
<jdub> (exasperated looks from everyone)
<jdub> let's gather ideas for challenges we've had
<jdub> brainstorm to find ways to solve htem
<jdub> (javier explains in spanish)
<jdub> * bugs
<jdub> * translations
<jdub> many languages supported by spanish distros
<jdub> * better mechanism for collaborating in marketing, support and self-support
<jdub> need to make supporting the distros scale
<jdub> with os x and windows, you speak to your friends
<jdub> hard to find right person to talk to about distributions, software, etc.
<jdub> mark asked javier to translate suggestion
<jdub> speaker translated it himself
<jdub> much laughter :)
<jdub> mark asks javier if the translation was right
<jdub> much laughter :)
<jdub> support has to scale from derivation to derivation to debian
<jdub> building a hierarchy of support
<jdub> from local distro to upstream
<jdub> mark: how would we deal with large changes
<jdub> we as developers know what is an ubuntu thing, what is a debian thing, what is an upstream thing
<jdub> users don't know
<jdub> need to start requests at local distro
* ajmitch_ starts organising his list of requests :)
<jdub> "maybe we could write a front-end to all the bug systems?"
<jdub> (everyone who has seen malone laughs)
<jdub> (mark suggests the malone team leader writes that)
<jdub> (for everyone in ubuntu-meeting -> malone is exactly that!)
<jdub> normal users don't use bug tracking system
<jdub> if they do, they put support requests in it
<jdub> how do we share bugs like this?
<crimsun> regarding large changes and denoting the origin of those changes: perhaps that could be done with special tags in the package's Changelog? Since Ubuntu-modified packages normally use a "ubuntu#" suffix, maybe extend cdbs .mks or debhelper to automatically tag ubuntu-local changes? This could be scaled for each distro in the "hierarchy"
<jdub> (crimsun: we had a bof about this yesterday, that was one of the suggestions)
<crimsun> (ah, ok)
<jdub> (crimsun: hopefully have the notes out in the wiki today, because it was *really* interesting)
<ajmitch_> jdub: quick q, is security on the agenda for this meeting?
<jdub> ajmitch_: not really
<jdub> ajmitch_: this is about collboration between distros
<mako> ajmitch_: it can be.. in so far as it's a problem that people share and that it may be a space of collaboration
<ajmitch_> ok
<ajmitch_> I was just wanting to ask about selinux integration
<mako> ajmitch_: the last session is going to be pretty discussion-based and user-specified
<ajmitch_> as I'm wanting to work on some of that with debian
* ajmitch_ will wait
<jdub> * version differences
<mako> ajmitch_: yeah, we're taling about deriviting distributions.. problems and convergence issues
<jdub> upstream works on head
<jdub> distros ship releases
<jdub> sometimes we want different versions, but we definitely focus on different versions of the software
<jdub> (translation and discussion in spanish)
<jdub> * Source code management
<jdub> changing the code, patch management, watching upstream and the distro you derive from
<jdub> * Package selection
<jdub> * Configuration and branding
<jdub> don't need to work on code management if you are just doing configuration and branding changes, but you end up with most of the work!
<jdub> (#: if you guys want to pipe up, just say stuff :-)
<ajmitch_> :)
* ajmitch_ is interested in this as a deb package maintainer
<jdub> talking about many branding/configuration changes, across many packages, how do we get a list?
<jdub> ubuntu has a list
<jdub> lots of discussion about configuration/branding changes
<jdub> federico mena from gnome linked ubuntu list in wiki
<jdub> gnome is interested in making it easier
<wood1> Hello Everybody
<jdub> what desktop does the 'ex' distribution use?
<jdub> "of course, it is gnome!"
<wood1> Good to be at this meeting
<jdub> lots of discussion about 'do we want to converge on one solution' or 'should we have different but collaborating systems'
<jdub> lots of agreement that there is good reason to do things differently
<jdub> but also to work together
<jdub> users want different things
<wood1> Well I want Ubuntu to support PC Clustering using openMosix
<jdub> wood1: the meeting is in person, this is an irc simulcast
<jdub> (wood1: also, you should do some hacking on it!)
<wood1> Well can I do that in Ubuntu. I checked out but found that openMosix supports only kernel 2.4.24
<wood1> Do I get support for kernel 2.6.8.1-3 in openMosix
<jdub> (discussion about users getting mad at differences between systems)
<jdub> (wood1: please take those to #ubuntu, this is a meeting simulcast)
<wood1> Ok I understand
<wood1> Well what do you mean users getting mad at differences between systems ?
<jdub> discussion about users needing things in the same place...
<mako> wood1: frusteration about how things are inconsistent
<jdub> (more translation)
<wood1> You mean in Ubuntu ?
<jblack> wood1: A simulcast is a one way sort of thing. :) 
<jdub> wood1: please take questions not directed to the meeting to #ubuntu
<jdub> if there are questions or comments for the meeting, here is fine
<jdub> but not general discussion here
<jdub> we'll find success, finding balance between consistency and innovation
<jdub> new point, finally :-)
<jdub> * Human resource management for distributions
<jdub> how to find a rallying point
<jdub> not wanting to waste people's time
<mako> i <3 bradb's accent
<jdub> (brad is canadian)
<jdub> hrm, skipping back to previous point
<jdub> windows standardisation has flattened local talent
<jdub> made it *harder* to support
<jdub> ...
<jdub> we have a good list
<mako> or at least to support locally
<jdub> (translation)
<jdub> * Standard installer
<jdub> * Automatic generation of the installer, livecd, etc.
<jdub> * Enterprise support
<jdub> LSC brought up
<jdub> mandrake, progeny, etc.
<jdub> (LCC)
<jdub> standards vs. same software for certification
<jdub> never has been a successful standard via consortium
<jdub> oracle certify to a very particular thing -> platform and version
<jdub> certification means not changing anything
<jdub> alternative to that problem is red hat's way -> innovation platform, enterprise platform
<jdub> back to installer -> users don't understand partitioning
<KragenSitaker> thanks for simulcasting, jdub
<jdub> "would you trust your mum's computer to ntfsresize?"
<koke> no
<jdub> guadalinex working on gparted to have a partition magic equivalent
<jdub> called neighbour -> "if you have a problem with your partition, you call your neighbour"
<jdub> (translation)
<jdub> (there is a fair bit of miscellaneous discussion points i'm skipping, mainly concentrating on the big points)
<jdub> * Distribution creation tools
<jdub> design proposed for debian-custom yesterday
<jdub> but much interest in the tools that canonical is working on
<lamont_r> jdub: want me to see if I can fix that for you.?
<jdub> (lamont_r: 'sok for now)
<jdub> (#: my power cable fell out)
<lamont_r> dunno if there are any short extension cords...
<jdub> we don't want to lose changes people want to make to packages and configuration
<jdub> time for a summary...
<jdub> derivation was a key part of the plan for what we wanted to create with ubuntu
<jdub> we need to scale the bug reporting infrastructure across distros and upstream
<jdub> upstream won't be able to handle AOL users :-)
<jdub> distros see bugs differently
<jdub> some are grave for debian, but irrelevant for guadalinex, etc.
<jdub> not a lot of work done among the spanish distributions about bug tracking problems
<jdub> (discussion about how they're handling bugs)
<jdub> this is why ubuntu has six month releases
<jdub> gives the open source community a platform to build on
<jdub> known delivery points, etc.
<jdub> not just bugs from users of our distros
<jdub> bugs also come in from upstream
<jdub> we are at the front line, fixing these problems
<mako> josh says that one thing that might work well is an RSS feed that exports the list of bugs and where they belong to allow people to work with each other
<mako> guadalinux has a good model that we can learn from
<mako> they have people without a lot of technical skills that can work with other more skilled people to help report and filter bugs
<mako> this filtered list of bugs will be usful to share
<mako> mdz says that bugs and support can often be collasped in many distribution but they are really not the same  ething
<mako> closing bugs for users that have submitted requests
<mako> confusing bugs and support requests takes up a lot of time
<jdub> hard to go looking for fixes in other distros
<mako> now there is a demo of a canonical tool called malone which is a bug tracking system with some inter-package and inter distro and intro-version stuff
<jdub> (#: malone is AMAZING)
<jdub> there's links between bug tracking systems like debbugs and bugzilla
<jdub> you can see bugs per package, product, version
<mako> inter-* bug tracking
<mako> OMG
<jdub> ;-)
<jdub> not really designed for end users
<jdub> this is the bug tracker
<jdub> there should be something else for collaborative technical support
<Q-FUNK> ouch
<jdub> this is being worked on atm, but not ready for demonstration
<jdub> also done work on a similar tool for translations
<jdub> which is the main topic for the next discussion after the break
<jdub> it is called rosetta
<jdub> the idea behind rosetta is to help people from local communities to do translations on the web
<Simira> and we like it :)
<jdub> it detects where you are from (geoip)
<jdub> and what languages are configured in your browser
<jdub> and displays the languages that are of interest to you
<jdub> we hope upstreams are very interested in this tool
<jdub> very good for application translation
<jdub> not great for documentation translation - that's different problem
<jdub> want to work out how best to collaborate on documentation, man pages, etc.
<jdub> much discussion to be had in the next session :-)
<jdub> (some discussion about training)
<jdub> (after talking about the support problem vs. bugs)
<jdub> okay
<jdub> we are having a break now
<jdub> i will be back soon :)
<ajmitch_> good work, jdub  :)
<mako> jdub: yes, thanks
<jdub> (phew!)
<ajmitch_> fingers tired yet?
<jdub> yeah
<ajmitch_> jdub: during the break.. suggestions on how to go about getting selinux work done in ubuntu? email proposals to ubuntu dev list?
<ajmitch_> since it'd require some patched packages
* ajmitch_ is wanting to work on it, rather than just ask others to
<jdub> ajmitch_: yeah
<jdub> ajmitch_: i think ultimately it would be better to work on the really core stuff in a derivation
<jdub> ajmitch_: but selinux patches for other stuff is fine -> gdm already supports it, etc.
<ajmitch_> yeah, debian will hopefully support it after sarge
<ajmitch_> as it will require libselinux1 going into base
<ajmitch_> most of the package maintainers are happy with the patches
<ajmitch_> I'll look into howto derive from ubuntu :)
<ajmitch_> aha, that was easy to find
<jdub> okay
<jdub> we're starting the next session
<jdub> jordi mallach and steve alexander talking about rosetta
<jdub> we're doing the translation in two or three languages
<ajmitch_> great, jordi :)
<jdub> there will be a translation demo
<jdub> but first, some discussion about the problems with translation
<jdub> in open source
<jdub> there are slides
<jdub> jordi is speaking in catalan
<jdub> (#: jordi is a member of the catalan independence army)
<Simira> :D
<jdub> (#: i am joking, of course)
<jdub> software is usually written in english, but we want to use it in the language we speak
<jdub> and write :)
* Simira prefer not
<jdub> people who could do translations have a very hard time helping, the tools are not good for them
<jdub> you have to understand complex tools
<jdub> pot, po, cvs, svn, gettext
<jdub> steve's father speaks/writes chinese
<jdub> would love to help
<jdub> but can't, because the tools are too difficult for him
<jdub> the culture and language of programmers is not always friendly in a way that outsiders understand
<jdub> you almost have to become a programmer to understand the tools
<jdub> (#: jordi's catalan description takes much longer than steve's english description...)
<jdub> there are barriers to actually get your translation into the software
<jdub> both technical and social
<jdub> you have to co-ordinate with releases
<jdub> which can be hard between the developer and the translator
<jdub> it is also hard for software authors, because they have to co-ordinate the many people who want to translate the software
<jdub> when users see something wrong, how do they know who to speak to to fix it?
<jdub> so, rosetta!
<jdub> canonical has sponsored rosetta
<jdub> it helps translators create translations and makes it easy for them
<jdub> it is a web interface
<jdub> it provides a global view on the state of translation
<jdub> many projects, all languages
<jdub> shows what is translated and what needs translating
<jdub> we hope rosetta will bring authors, translators and user together, better than they are now
<jdub> jordi is going to demonstrate rosetta by translating a small application
<jdub> jordi is making the font in his web browser bigger
<ajmitch_> live demos are always tricky 
<jdub> we are switching computers for the demo...
<jdub> there is a back up computer ;-)
<jdub> jordi's machine is falling to pieces
<jdub> donations welcome
<jdub> ;-)
* jdub fills time by making jokes
<jdub> dum de dum
<jdub> jordi is searching for a program
<jdub> he searches for 'hello', finds gnome-hello
<jdub> he is setting up gnome-hello for catalan translation
<jdub> somehow he managed to switch into japanese input mode...
<jdub> demo fun :-)
<jdub> he registers the po template
<jdub> gnome-hello is not translated at all into spanish or catalan
<jdub> rosetta picks up languages from:
<jdub> - geoip -> the location of the user
<jdub> - the languages set up in the browser
<jdub> - the user's configuration in rosetta itself
<jdub> it is very clever :-)
<jdub> jordi is now translating gnome-hello to catalan
<jdub> there's a list of strings
<jdub> jordi is looking for the right accents... :-)
<jdub> ... translating strings ...
<jdub> ... translating strings ...
<jdub> ... translating strings ...
<jdub> rosetta provides file context help
<jdub> (#: if you guys have questions for jordi and steve, just ask, but i think they prefer questions at the end)
<jdub> (#: but it is quiet while jordi is translating)
<koke> anybody else is ahving problems with the wireless connection here?
<jdub> (#: preferably related to rosetta...)
<jdub> jordi has translated 30% of gnome-hello
<jdub> now he is downloading the finished po file
<jdub> the translations can be exported easily
<jdub> this is useful for developers to commit the translations
<jdub> or for translators to see the software running with the translation
<jdub> daf is demonstrating the translation
<jdub> copying the po file over
<jdub> and running gnome-hello with LANG=ca_ES.UTF-8
<jdub> daf displays the po file that was exported
<jdub> (setting up more of the demo)
<jdub> lots of work to be done on the web interface
<jdub> making it easier for translators
<jdub> from next week, you'll be able to use rosetta
<jdub> question about translation memory
<jdub> the infrastructure is there for it, but it has not been implemented yet
<jdub> two ways to get strings into the system for translation:
<jdub> - uploading original pot files -> this is good for small projects
<jdub> - we can sync them directly from the upstream revision control with some of the other tools we're working on
<jdub> that means they'll always be up to date
<jdub> questions from the crowd
<jdub> * do comments in the po file show up in the web interface?
<jdub> yes, this is supported
<jdub> * can you see how other languages have translated the strings, during translation?
<jdub> haven't done that yet, there are some ui issues to solve to make it very nice
<jdub> * does it preserve format string components and check if they've been removed by mistake?
<jdub> that's a great idea
<jdub> we should do that
<jdub> (the latter, that is -> it preserves format strings already..)
<jdub> * with translation memory, different projects use different terms - will rosetta have global and per-project glossaries?
<jdub> we had a request for this, very much related to translation memory features
<jdub> * what about project management integration, for translation review and so on?
<jdub> great idea, we should do that
<jdub> it would be great to have a hierarchy of skilled translators
<jdub> a review tree
<jdub> these kinds of things will come up a lot as people use it
<jdub> we will be very open to suggestions
<jdub> * will it be open source?
<jdub> we want to at some stage
<jdub> it is very integrated into launchpad
<jdub> which is pretty centralised, with integration into revision control and all the other tools
<jdub> so there are benefits to having one central system
<jdub> very convenient for upstreams to have one place to go
<jdub> (#: you guys can ask questions here, you don't have to /msg me :)
<jdub> * does it support formats other than po?
<jdub> not yet, but it will later on
<ctd> Question: Are your hands getting tired yet?
<jdub> tms, xliff, etc.
<jdub> (heh, sort of)
<jdub> * can translators use tools on their own computer?
<jdub> yes, they can use emacs and so on, but still collaborate within rosetta
<jdub> so you can upload and download po files
<jdub> in the future, there will be an xml-rpc protocol and pygtk application for translation
<jdub> plus you can use the revision control system as well
<lifeless> whoa.
<lifeless> PEOPLE.
<jdub> :)
<ctd> Is it just me who sees people join multiple times?
<ctd> Since it's only been this channel. 
<jdub> * can we make it as easy to see the translated application as pressing a button?
<jdub> wow! great idea!
<koke> ctd, it's a matrix failure ;)
<jdub> * can anyone put new projects in rosetta? even non-free?
<jdub> no one's asked that before :-)
<jdub> we have lots to discuss about ownership of translations, copyright, translation memory, etc.
<jdub> * what about spell checking? :)
<jdub> great idea
<jdub> * which new formats are planned?
<jdub> we'd like to do manpages
<jdub> converters from openoffice and mozilla formats to po
<jdub> etc.
<jdub> (discussion about who would like to try it and use it, etc)
<jdub> there is a mailing list
<jdub> rosetta-users
<jdub> http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/rosetta-users
<Treenaks> why are the list archives private?
<Simira> that's new to me. Tell them to put a link to it from the Rosetta web
<jdub> Treenaks: it was a beta list for a while
<jdub> i will ask about it
<jdub> okay, i will fix that up :)
<jdub> done
<jdub> alright
<jdub> having a break
<jdub> between sessions
<Treenaks> lunch break? :)
<jdub> will come back soon :-)
<jdub> THIS ROCKS!
<jdub> Treenaks: nah, just a short break
<Tsjoklat> jdub follows the rules behind the logitech keyboard
<Treenaks> Tsjoklat: "According to some experts, the use of any keyboard can induce injury"
<Tsjoklat> Treenaks ja :) and one should take regular breaks
<jdub> NEXT SESSION!
<jdub> mako and ismael olea
<jdub> talking about collaboration and convergence
<jdub> there are so many distros in spain
<jdub> derived from debian
<jdub> in so many regions
<jdub> there is not enough communication and collaboration
<jdub> how can we fix that?
<jdub> there are technical and non-technical/political problems
<jdub> (ismael is translating)
<jdub> at the end we can talk about solutions
<jdub> ideas we might have to make collaboration work
<jdub> political problems
<jdub> * respect for standards and making standards
<jdub> * secrecy!
<jdub> * general communication
<jdub> * "not invented here", wanting to be different
<jdub> * geographical location, hard to meet up
<jdub> and timezones
<Q-FUNK> "not made here" - sounds like Debian all over again.
<jdub> * cultural differences, inability to work around
<jdub> * different deadlines and priorities, technical or not
<Kamion> Q-FUNK: I don't think we were describing our own position there.
<Kamion> Q-FUNK: the comment was in the context of the many distributions in Spain.
<jdub> (#: comments for the meeting here, discussion elsewhere please :)|
<jdub> * different audiences
<jdub> * resources, difference and sharing
<jdub> == Technical Barriers to Convergence ==
<jdub> list from first session is a good starting point for this
<jdub> * compatibility -> infrastructure, applications, etc.
<jdub> * language and communication with developers
<jdub> * duplication of work, lack of visibility
<jdub> people working on same packages in different distros
<jdub> horizontal (regional) distros vs. vertical (thematic) distros
<jdub> * configuration -> 'flavours' (same stuff, different configuration)
<jdub> * different security policies
<jdub> * hardware platforms
* ajmitch_ waves to jordi 
<jdub> * no common place to share needs, issues, etc. even between local government distros in spain
<jdub> * branding
<jdub> * delivery methods
<jdub> (we should have an ubuntu punched cards project)
<jdub> dvds, cds, network install, etc.
<jdub> * binary compatibility, releases, common base, etc.
<jdub> * thin clients
<jdub> * old computers (for use with thin clients, or special software needs)
<jdub> * managing large installations
<jdub> * live cds, different installers, etc.
<jdub> * giving back (higher distro or upstream software) or sharing (similar distros)
<jdub> * support live cycle and releases of the distros
<jdub> - software selection
<jdub> - configuration
<jdub> - code changes
<jdub> - installation
<jdub> SOLUTIONS
<jdub> * it's crazy to assume that we can all use the same thing, whether it's debian, ubuntu, red hat, suse, whatever
<jdub> so we have to manage the differences
<jdub> sharing the infrastructure for managing those differences makes sense
<jordi> (woah, and I thought Jeff was sitting in the corner doing his stuff...)
<jdub> CDD proposal -> common way of specifying what you want from your custom distribution
<jdub> common way to select packages
<jdub> common way to configure packages
<jdub> sharing repository, and sharing branches@
<jdub> two models for custom distributions being pushed...
<jdub> low priority debconf questions -> adding the ability to configure the package, and not changing the defaults
<jdub> pre-seeding different answers for configuration differences between distros
<jdub> suggestion to work upstream in debian instead of making new repositories
<jdub> branding-only packages in different repository
<jdub> debian == big repository in the sky
<Q-FUNK> I would simply package pre-seeding files with Ubuntu defaults, but otherwise use standard Debian.
<Q-FUNK> ... + ubuntu-specific file in their own small repository.
<jdub> problem is release timing differences, teamwork problems,
<Q-FUNK> another alternative would be to release only core Ubuntu supported packages, then pin those with a higher priority than Debian.
<jdub> (difficult to summarise comments, if anyone wants to summarise, please say)
<jdub> Q-FUNK: discussion elsewhere please
<Q-FUNK> for any other packages, instead of universe, we'd have regular Debian testing or unstable, pinned at lower priority.
<jordi> jdub: I could try to help
<jdub> one big repository vs. multiple repositories
<Q-FUNK> jdub: where do I feed ideas BACK to the meeting since I'm not there to voice my opiion then?
<jdub> referring to discussion earlier about this - having to manage the differences in priorities and deadlines
<jdub> Q-FUNK: here, those issues have been raised
<jdub> mark:
<jdub> before starting ubuntu, researched how revision control could help solve this problem
<jdub> best solution was arch, now we're working on matching bitkeeper with bazaar
<jdub> matching and exceeding :)
<jdub> starting with arch instead of starting from nothing
<jdub> understanding relationships between different distro versions
<jdub> VERY hard problem
<jdub> right now we don't have a solution to deliver
<jdub> but we're working very hard on these tools
<jdub> hundreds of thousands of lines of changes in debian/ubuntu's X
<jdub> we're not just looking at the differences
<jdub> we're looking at the differences between differences :)
<jdub> not only between debian distros
<jdub> but all distros
<jdub> (#: we're not really talking about very specific technical solutions here, more the broad brush strokes of solutions)
<jdub> discussion of partnership between common distros
<Q-FUNK> jdub: is that aprtnership actually going to ahppen, according to Mark & all?
<jdub> it is a suggestion during brainstorming discussion
<jdub> can spanish distros use same cd, different choices for region
<jdub> requires political coordination
<jordi> which is _very_ difficult
<jdub> (#: mako keeps tripping over the eazel)
<Q-FUNK> jordi: maybe not here, but could you explain what makes it so politically difficult to coordinate and collaborate in Spain?
<jdub> the open source community as a whole can act as that 'central' arbitrator
<jdub> it will grow to solve those problems
<jdub> technical solution of single cd is relatively simple, but the political issues are the hard part there
<jdub> (lots of reference to political differences in spain, which jordi can explain as he is a member of the catalunya independence army)
<jdub> we can create models to allow for horizontal and vertical collaboration
<jdub> coordinating releases and security and so on
<jdub> lots of discussion about common release base and different versions on top per priority
<jdub> ubuntu/kubuntu release cycles vs. single repository
<jdub> (gnome and kde release cycle differences)
<jdub> security in ubuntu
<jdub> malone will help enormously for our security efforts in multiple releases
<jdub> we hope it will be useful for all distros to share information
<jdub> we collaborate with debian for security patches and so on
<jdub> public mailing list 'security-review' for collaboration
<jdub> we are focusing on code a lot, but even small changes like icons are code-like changes
<jdub> but we are probably focusing on the micro problems, not the macro problems
<jdub> how about the live cd model? same base system, different packages on top
<jdub> common base system proposal again
<jdub> how many DDs or NMs? lots of hands :)
<jdub> (phew, sorry, i was talking a bit)
<jdub> talking about debian as an engine room for front-end distros
<jdub> like the way gnome sees itself
<jdub> cultural change to see derivatives as partners, not competition
<jdub> discussion about derivative collaboration is similar to business collaboration
<jdub> ending point
<jdub> wrapping up stuff
<jdub> mark:
<jdub> - this is a fascinating challenge to produce an absolutely free distribution
<jdub> - there will never be a requirement to put 'ubuntu' in a derived distribution
<jdub> - if we're going to do it, we can share the difficult challenges with translations, bugs, etc.
<jdub> - too long we've focused on centralisation, one organisation, etc.
<jdub> - we don't have all the solutions, but this is a great list
<jdub> thank you very much
<jdub> time for lunch :-)
<jdub> applause, sighs of relief, etc.
<jdub> =======
<jdub> that's all
<jdub> that's all from me :-)
<Q-FUNK> thanks for the summary.
<Synek> .part
<koke> hey, there's no broadcast of the lunch?? ;P
<koke> hi all!
<koke> is there any dinner/party planned for tonight??
#ubuntu-meeting 2004-12-23
<Pyraine> hey, is this the place for help on ubuntu?
<Gmail> what time is it now utc?
<Gmail> 6am?
<Gmail> is it another 10hrs
<Gmail> ohh wait dsl
<Gmail> ohh wait dls
<amathis> w0w
<Gmail> --- Topic for #ubuntu-meeting set by smurfix_ at Wed Dec  8 02:01:45 2004
<Gmail> <Gmail> what time is it now utc?
<Gmail> <Gmail> 6am?
<Gmail> <Gmail> is it another 10hrs
<Gmail> <Gmail> ohh wait dsl
<Gmail> <Gmail> ohh wait dls
<Gmail> ????????????????????????
<ctd> brains?
<Gmail> ????????
<jordi> damn I'm sleepy
<Treenaks> jordi: 1 word: coffee
<jordi> never!
<jordi> time to return this wireless card.
<ajmitch_> hey jordi 
* Not|Gmail wakes up jordi 
<Gmail> jordi: WAKE UP
* Gmail shakes jordi 
<Gmail> jordi: only another few hours
<Treenaks> Gmail: maybe.. only maybe, people are ignoring you for some strange reason
<Tsjoklat> ./ignore Gmail 3
<Tsjoklat> oops wrong window
<Gmail> lol
<Gmail> Tsjoklat: are you ignoring me?
<Gmail> Treenaks: are you ignoring me?
<gen> i'm ignoring you gmail
<Gmail> everyone ignore me LOL
<gen> that's the plan
<Gmail> gen: that much for ignoring me
<gen> cocaine
<Gmail> gen: shouldn't you rename your nick to ubun ?
<zenwhen> what does the meeting concern?
<zenwhen> lol
<Gmail> lol
<gen> go repair your computers zenwhen
<zenwhen> huh
<gen> you know what i'm talking about
<zenwhen> Whats wtong with them?
<zenwhen> wrong*
<gen> your site zenwhenhardwear
<gen> ?
<zenwhen> huh
<gen> you are a different zenwhen
<gen> nevermind
<zenwhen> No, I am that zenwhen.
<zenwhen> But that site has nothing to do with computer repair.
<gen> didnt say it did really
<zenwhen> In fact is has little to do with anything.
<zenwhen> lol
<gen> indeed
<gen> radeon and zenwhens computer repair service
<gen> hurr
<zenwhen> who are you?
<gen> secret admirer
<zenwhen> ps: I am not waterhouse.
<gen> yeah, no shit
<zenwhen> oh
<gen> it's fucking late, i'm off to bed
<Gmail> zenwhen: will you marry gen?
<zenwhen> I dont know who gen is.
<zenwhen> Either it is someone from a forums I used to troll or its one of my friends being dumb.
<zenwhen> forum*
<zenwhen> I should sleep too.
* Gmail == gen
<gen> ..
<Gmail> zenwhen: you know me
<zenwhen> how?
<gen> gmail shut the fuck up
<Gmail> zenwhen: i am your mum
<gen> aussie fag
<farruinn> Gmail, meeting is soon?  1600 UTC isn't for another 4 hours isn't it?
<crimsun> farruinn: correct.
<Gmail> farruinn: thats pritty soon
<Gmail> meeting time
<crimsun> you're about 1h 45m early
<crimsun> (assuming 1600 UTC)
<Gmail> lol
<Gmail> i like being a bit early
<Gmail> because it better than being a bit late
<crimsun> =)
<farruinn> he's been heralding the meeting since 7:00 EST or something :)
<Gmail> lol
<Treenaks> what meeting? the meeting in /topic was tuesday
<Gmail> i have been here 10hrs+
<Gmail> oohh
<Treenaks> Gmail: go sleep.
<Gmail> Treenaks: LOL
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Gmail] : Tuesday 07 December 2004 at 16:00 UTC: Community Council meeting -- https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/CommunityCouncilAgenda | <Treenaks> what meeting? the meeting in /topic was tuesday
<Gmail> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5737810010
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Treenaks] : Tuesday 07 DecemberTuesday 07 December 2004 at 16:00 UTC: Community Council meeting -- https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/CommunityCouncilAgenda
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Treenaks] : Tuesday 07 December 2004 at 16:00 UTC: Community Council meeting -- https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/CommunityCouncilAgenda
<Gmail> :(
<farruinn> wouldn't it make sense to have to topic point to the log from the last meeting and the agenda for the next?
<Gmail> *slap*
<Gmail> zzz
<Tsjoklat> night all.. be good!
#ubuntu-meeting 2004-12-24
<reformed> goons pop up everywhere!
<zenwhen> huh
<zenwhen> Whats your forums name?
<zenwhen> oh well
<zenwhen> Gmail, this channel isnt very active either. XD
<Gmail> what
<zenwhen> hi
<zenwhen> :D
<Gmail> zenwhen: yo
<Gmail> <zenwhen> huh
<Gmail> <zenwhen> Whats your forums name?
<Gmail> <zenwhen> oh well
<Gmail> <zenwhen> Gmail, this channel isnt very active either. XD
<Gmail> you
<zenwhen> nice spam
<zenwhen> oh
<zenwhen> huh
<zenwhen> who ARE you?
<Gmail> the guys inside your sister
<zenwhen> lmao
<Gmail> lol
<zenwhen> anyway
<zenwhen> I guess I'll see you again sometime. Have a nice night. :*
<Gmail> night?
<Gmail> its day
<jordi> apparently I have the ubuntu virus. :/
<crimsun> is it terminal?
<jordi> no. you get better in 1 or 2 days. sucks though.
<crimsun> ah
<crimsun> I have the awful Debian virus.
<crimsun> I've been sick for many years. :<
<azeem> crimsun: jordi once even had the Hurd virus, so go figure
* jordi watches a fight with balls between Kamion and LaMont.
<Treenaks> balls???
* jordi adds that LaMont's aim is quite better than Kamion's, apparently ;)
<Simira> ok, no further details needed
<Treenaks> jordi: older, more experience
<jordi> heh
<jordi> paper balls, or whatever they were.
<jordi> ooh
<jordi> I see the difference in today's death in a bag.
<jordi> They added tomato to the bread
<mgedmin> my bread had no tomatoes, thanfully
* mgedmin hates tomaoes
<Treenaks> toma'oes? that sounds british :)
<jordi> I don't like crude tomato too much either.
<jordi> but it makes the lunchpack slightly better.
<jordi> stress "slightly"
<Treenaks> hey at least they won't let you die...
<Treenaks> not easily, anyway
<Kamion> jordi: hey, I hit him ... eventually
<jordi> missed that, sorry :)
* jordi tries the sandwich now.
* Treenaks calls a Mataro ambulance for jordi
<jordi> heh
* sladen watches jordi attempt to digest the sandwich
<jordi> it was delicious.
<Treenaks> jordi: you sure?
<jordi> no, it's probably the Kas orange which seemed to be in bad condition (bob2 can assert), making me believe that the food was good.l
#ubuntu-meeting 2004-12-25
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:mdz] : Tuesday 14 December 2004 at 1600 UTC: Technical Board meeting
<sabdfl> hey all
<jdub> morning
<sabdfl> ish
* mdz yawns reflexively
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:mdz] : Tuesday 14 December 2004 at 1600 UTC: Technical Board meeting -- http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/TechnicalBoardAgenda
* haggai bounces around like tiger
<haggai> uh tigger
<mdz> there rae no new agenda items
<mdz> are
<sabdfl> the wonderful thing about tiggers
<mdz> is tiggers are wonderful things
<sabdfl> is tigger are wonderful tings
<jdub> aww so cute ;)
<sabdfl> ... was trying to think of something rhyming with kubuntu :-)
<jdub> sabdfl: ... ubuntu?
<sabdfl> thatwuntoo
<haggai> tiggerunto?
<sabdfl> should we begin
<sabdfl> nothing on the agenda
<sabdfl> mdz, any other business?
<jdub> there are two items on the agenda
<jdub> - libnns-mdns
<jdub> - language packs
<jdub> (libnss-mdns)
<sabdfl> ah right
<mdz> sabdfl: none from me
<sabdfl> that's howl right?
<jdub> no
<sabdfl> mdns?
<mdz> language packs were discussed at the previous tech board meeting
<mdz> that one should have been moved down to old business
<jdub> mdns == multicast dns resolution (not part of howl, but related to zeroconf support)
<mdz> there is no bullet point next to mdns
<mdz> and therefore it is clearly invalid
<jdub> haha
<mdz> so the matter with mdns is that it wants to listen
<sabdfl> mdz: might be worth pointing folks at the notes from the languagepak bof at the conf
<jdub> it doesn't.
<jdub> mdnsresponder from howl does
<jdub> libnss-mdns is just a resolver
<mdz> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/LanguagePacksBOF
<jdub> you punted it to tech board because you felt that nss modules were dangerous
<mdz> so is the proposal just to add libnss-mdns to supported?
<jdub> to desktop
<mdz> or to add it to the default nsswitch configuration?
<jdub> yeah, and the default configuration
<jdub> we have the option between an nss module or a glibc patch. personally, i think the nss option is slightly saner (and easy to disable). :-)
<jdub> i'm not really clear on your POV about nss module fear though
<sabdfl> i've no preference
<mdz> it's no scarier than a glibc patch
<mdz> but glibc patches are, well, SCARY
<mdz> what does it buy us in terms of functionality?
* Keybuk sneaks in :p
<mdz> does it let applications discover mdns things?
<lamont_r> Keybuk: 20 pushups.
<sabdfl> is it worth having a mataro session on mdns / zeroconf in general?
<jdub> mdz: no, it just resolves .local names
<jdub> sabdfl: potentially, i punted it because it was pretty airy-fairy.
<sabdfl> it seems zeroconf / rendesvous has big potential, but also brings risks
<mdz> if it's vaporous, should we be adding it to the default code path for every application which uses DNS?
<jdub> libnss-mdns -> vaporous?
<sabdfl> apple is pushing rendesvous pretty hard, is anything happening in the windows world about it?
<sabdfl> if it's going to be widely supported and standard, then we will need to find a sane way to integrate it
<mdz> jdub: airy-fairy?
<jdub> MS backed UPnP, but will probably stumble on zeroconf at some stage.
<sabdfl> much like cups, smb browsing etc
<jdub> mdz: oh, a single bof about "zeroconf" in general.
<sabdfl> yes
<jdub> sabdfl: the big question, wrt risk, is whether mdnsresponder listens by default
<sabdfl> what about a single-check "turn it on" option?
<haggai> if it's not really in wide use yet, I'd say turn it off for now
<mdz> that's my preference
<jdub> sabdfl: automatic answer is "no", but that makes it useless and non-zeroconf. :)
<mdz> ("turn it on" option)
<mdz> jdub: "oneconf"
<jdub> given policy, me too.
<jdub> uniconf! (.sf.net -> fear)
<sabdfl> what about a way in the system in general for things to say "i need to do some conf, can we turn it on.... ok, done"
<Keybuk> mobile-esque "Discoverable for 5 minutes" ?
<pitti> sabdfl: we could also need this for cups browsing etc.
<haggai> hmm.  How about turn it on, if we get a zeroconf network config?
<sabdfl> this is really something that's useful while the user is at the console, right?
<mdz> cups browsing is broken by design
<mdz> it should use zeroconf
<jdub> rh are doing some good user-level cups / hal / howl integration
<sabdfl> mdz: thereby deferring the problem?
<sabdfl> "metadata!"
<mdz> it reverses the problem
<mdz> the cups server would need mdns-responder, but not clients
<pitti> mdz: upstream is not going to change it
<jdub> "who?" rather than "me!"
<sabdfl> right
<sabdfl> so it's more like dns
<jdub> pitti: but it's fairly likely that everyone else will be using those patches.
<mdz> yes
<jdub> sabdfl: it, um, is dns.
<sabdfl> is howl == zeroconf == libnss-mdns (client side)?
<jdub> they're all related
<jdub> zeroconf covers autoconfiguration of local link IP addresses and names, as well as dns-based service discovery
<jdub> libnss-mdns is the resolver side of ip autoconfiguration
<Keybuk> so zeroconf is "where are my printers" ?
<jdub> howl is service discovery (uni and multicast, and publishing)
<jdub> we're not doing ip autoconfiguration yet, but we can defer that for network manager, etc.
<jdub> i should make a wiki page to explain all of this :)
<mdz> yes, you should
<sabdfl> what's the relationship between libnss-mdns and dhcp?
* jdub tomboys
<jdub> sabdfl: nothing, really
<sabdfl> ip autoconf?
<mdz> libnss-mdns needs an IP to send from
<jdub> ip autoconfiguraiton and dhcp are related in that they both dynamically assign ips
<jdub> dhcp is server based, zcip (zeroconf ip) is local lan non routable, etc.
<sabdfl> ok
<sabdfl> so this would be useful if, say, three of us were sitting on a bus and just wanted to throw a wifi netowrk up together?
<mdz> right
<mdz> or if you were all at an Ubuntu conference and wanted to talk to each other
<sabdfl> or on a plane to australia
<jdub> sabdfl: yes
<sabdfl> give it to me now!
<jdub> sabdfl: like the ichat 'rendezvous' window
<jdub> at a conference
<mdz> I think the flight crew frown on ad-hoc wireless networks
* sivang was instructed to now use wifi/cd
<jdub> flight crews always smile
<sivang> *not
<sivang> (while in air)
<sabdfl> jdub: if you smile first
<mdz> so the question is, should we integrate nss-mdns and start exercising it?
<Keybuk> does libnss-mdns have an always-listening component?
<jdub> Keybuk: no, it's an nss module only
<mdz> is there anything planned for hoary which would actually use it?
<jdub> just a resolver
<mdz> (which would rely on it, I should sya)
<mdz> say
<Keybuk> so to discover things with it, you need a listener elsewhere on the network ?
<jdub> mdz: "is there anything in hoary that relies on dns resolution?"
<sabdfl> jdub: when you try to resolve, does it ping the network and listen for responses?
<jdub> Keybuk: well, yeah - mdnsresponder automatically publishes the hostname
<Keybuk> ah, so it's a dns responder -- and nothing to do with service discovery ?
<jdub> sabdfl: i don't believe so, no.
<sabdfl> what's the status of utopia / dbus stack that would let a user see a dialog giving the status of a howl discovery session happening at system level?
<mdz> jdub: that is not the same thing and you know it :-P
<jdub> Keybuk: yes, see above.
<Keybuk> it's *literally* multicast dns
* Keybuk understands now
<mdz> depending on where we put it in nsswitch.conf, it'll be queried in order with other name resolution services
<jdub> sabdfl: i can't see why that would be desireable or useful
<mdz> currently we just try /etc/hosts and then dns
<pitti> sabdfl: right now it is not integrated in hal AFAIK
<Keybuk> the nss equivalent of "Is there a Hugh Janus in the room?  Telephone call for a Hugh Janus"
<sabdfl> can that be used to redirect traffic?
<mdz> yes
<mdz> if we add it to the end, and you try to go to www.goggle.com, I can answer and send you somewhere, e.g.
<sabdfl> nice
<sabdfl> ok
<mdz> adding it to the start would be, as jeff would say, BONG
<sabdfl> dns says "nope" then mdns says "sure, try this one"
<mdz> exactly
<mdz> every single failed DNS request would try mdns as a fallback
<jdub> only for .local
<mdz> eh?
<jdub> it wouldn't go looking for www.google.com with libnss-mdns
<jdub> well, it would, but mdns would say no very quickly
<jdub> as in, "not .local? kthxbye"
<Keybuk> wouldn't we need to configure things to search .local then?
<mdz> jdub: where is the code which does that bit?
<jdub> ah, well, that's a separate issue :)
<Keybuk> and then wouldn't it resolve www.google.com.local ?
<haggai> so it's the dns equivalent of M$'s netbios?  Flood your local network instead of having a sane DNS server?
<mdz> it's somewhat less braindead in that it uses multicast rather than broadcast
<crimsun> the difference being that at least mdns is explanable
<mdz> it includes its own DNS implementation, cute
<crimsun> not even MS engineers can really fathom out netbios
<mdz> Keybuk: it seems to be irrelevant
<mdz> Keybuk: because jdub is full of shit about it only resolving .local :-P
<jdub> heh
<sabdfl> so, we really have to choose between pioneering and being conservative
<mdz> that's easily fixable, though
<sabdfl> i don't see the big win in breaking down this particular wall
<jdub> so i think lennart meant it did it in svn, not the released version
<jdub> but yeah, not a huge issue
<Keybuk> if we do $zeroconf, we should to it in one big strategy-led punch; rather than in drips
<sabdfl> seems that ms, apple, others will battle out the usability issues, we can follow on this one
<sabdfl> we can't pioneer on every front
<jdub> we don't have to
<jdub> supporting the standard is enough
<jdub> as more stuff up the stack supports it, we win
<haggai> you can do that without turning it on by default everywhere
<sabdfl> "standard" is one thing, figuring out what normal sane regular behaviour is is quite different
<mdz> add it to supported and write a ZeroConfHowto?
<jdub> Keybuk: i don't think that's a problem
<jdub> sabdfl: we know what that behaviour is
<haggai> it would be nice to have a single knob that would turn on all the zeroconf bits
<sabdfl> i don't think we do!
<sabdfl> we don't know how it should integraqte with dns and that's pretty fundamental
<jdub> 1) we should always have a local lan ip
<jdub> 2) we should only mdns query for .local
<jdub> 3) we shouldn't search on .local
<Keybuk> why #1 ?
<mdz> jdub: we already do #1 :-)
<Keybuk> we do?
<jdub> mdz: no we don't
<mdz> "ip addr" sometime
<sabdfl> m gut feel is it will take a while before there's clear "best practice"
<jdub> mdz: that's inet6, not inet4
<sabdfl> and if we forge ahead now,  we have to support upgrades and old behaviour etc
<Keybuk> does libnss-mdns support ip6 networks?
<jdub> we're really not forging ahead here
<sabdfl> bluetooth, however, might be an easier point
<jdub> windows does zcip, mac os x does zcip
<sabdfl> do they do it in the same way?
<sabdfl> always?
<jdub> yes
<sabdfl> so bring up a win box, and a ma, on the same network, and it interoperates?
<jdub> (for #1)
<mdz> http://files.zeroconf.org/draft-ietf-zeroconf-ipv4-linklocal.txt
<mdz> "standard"
<jdub> sabdfl: no, they both get zcips
<jdub> well, you can ping each other
<sabdfl> demonstrably?
<jdub> that's the zeroconf ip part of the standard
<jdub> as far as i've seen, yes
<jdub> Keybuk: planned, but not fully implemented
<mdz> zcip doesn't sound so scary
<haggai> "Microsoft Windows 98 (and later) and Mac OS 8.5 (and later) already support this capability.  This document standardizes usage,"
<haggai> so we're definately not leading
<jdub> on zcip, no
<jdub> the second point of resolving .local stuff is not exactly rocket science
<mdz> BUGS
<mdz>        zcip  currently assumes that the target interface is down and reconfig
<mdz>        ures it. The IETF draft seems to suggest using multihoming,  which  we
<mdz>        dont do yet.
<mdz> that sounds problematic
<jdub> os x already does it
<jdub> zcip is one particular implementation
<jdub> howl includes an implementation
<Keybuk> so is libnss-mdns useful without a $zcip ?
<jdub> Keybuk: yes
<sabdfl> yes, this looks like mutual dhcp
<Keybuk> if you get dhcp, chances are you get dns too
<haggai> sabdfl: you say we can't forge ahead on all fronts.  When you look at cross-OS stuff we are forging ahead on very little..
<mdz> Keybuk: mdns serves a different purpose
<sabdfl> ok, have to head off to barcelona, enjoy
<mdz> it lets me advertise something to you
<mdz> rather than having the network admin add it to the DNS server
<Keybuk> that's not what libnss-mdns looks up though, it just does name lookups ?
<jdub> i think mdz's original concern,
<jdub> new code in a very active codepath,
<jdub> was probably the most relevant issue
<jdub> Keybuk: yes
<jdub> i'm also going to barcelona
<Keybuk> but unless you have an IP, you can't do name lookups anyway
<Keybuk> you need $fu to co-operate on IP and ensure "domain local" is the order of the day
<jdub> Keybuk: "domain local" as in resolv.conf?
<Keybuk> yeah
<jdub> nah
<Keybuk> or equiv
<jdub> ok, i think i'm going
<mdz> me too
<mdz> we'll defer mdns stuff until something interesting comes along
<mdz> any urgent business before we adjourn?
<mdz> adjourned, bye
<mdz> thanks, everyone
<Keybuk> "<mdz> kthxbye"
<Simira> http://www.simira.net/UbuntuWomen.html - My article about Ubuntu and women in open source
<Simira> hi lulu
<Treenaks> Simira: there's  a '\ ' in your name.. don't you mean a '/' ?
<Simira> oh no, not again... yes, thanks, Treenaks
<Simira> so, there
<Treenaks> Simira: oh, and s/Mataro/Matar/ :P
<Simira> Treenaks: that looked to me like an A with a ~ and a 3 over  :p
<Treenaks> Simira: in which editor?
<Treenaks> Simira: and are you using an UTF-8 locale?
<Simira> in mIRC
<Treenaks> mirc.. ah :)
<Simira> :p
<Treenaks> yes.. that's how an UTF-8 o-with-accent looks if you try to parse it as Latin1
#ubuntu-meeting 2004-12-26
<jordi> can anyone ping mako for me?
<Treenaks> ping timeout
<jordi> mostly...
<jordi> sigh.
#ubuntu-meeting 2005-12-26
<jhammam> hi
<jhammam> can anyone help me to register
<Treenaks> jhammam: register what
<jhammam> its said that this channel requires that you have registered and identified yourself with the network's nickname
<anandaputra> hallooo...
<jhammam> hi
<kjcole> Hiya all...
<Yagisan> G'day kjcole
<lucasvo> hi kjcole 
<flint> morning kevin!!
<lucasvo> kjcole: I managed to checkout the cookbook
<lucasvo> kjcole: is there any roadmap/ todo list?
<kjcole> Morning, Mr. Flint, Did you get that grant notification from Community of Science?
<JaneW> hi all
<flint> kjcole, did i mention how much it sucks to be old enough to be called Mr. Flint?  BTW what grant notification?
<kjcole> Lucasvo, Not yet, but it sounds like a good idea.  We're basically making a pass thru to eliminate unwanted stuff first then a second pass to figure out what to add.
<JaneW> sorry about missing last week, things have been hectic and I felt really ill  etc
<flint> morning jane how you feel?
<Forth> hi Mr. Flint
<ogra> yeah, sorry for not putting up the notes yet ... 
<ogra> i lag a bit with my paperwork
<flint> Forth, that was harsh, try flint...morning ollie!
<JaneW> flint: much better today, but ready for a VAC!
<kjcole> Flint, I sent something your way last saturday or sunday: someone's offering money for "computers and software that will close the digital divide in education..."
<flint> JaneW, it is a balmy -3 F here in Montpelier, Vermont...
<JaneW> sucks2Bme, peak of summer holidays here and I still working
<JaneW> flint: luverly!
<JaneW> ok let's hit it?
<kjcole> Flint, brisk..
<flint> kjcole, i will check, please send again...
<ogra> yup
<ogra> my update is quick today ....
<ogra> most of my worktime was spent for http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/edubuntu-devel/2005-December/000927.html last week
<ogra> but i started to work on the low memory spec (which includes the fix for powerpc installs to finally work)
<kjcole> flint, it's one of those things that only allows you to send form mail, so it may not look like it's from me, but trust it.  Community of Science.
<ogra> thats al from the tech side ....
<kjcole> And, g'morning JaneW.
<flint> kjcole, gotcha...
<JaneW> hi kjcole
<jelkner> kjcole: did we do documentation report yet?
<Yagisan> ogra: so currently it still uses the same amount of ram as breezys ?
<JaneW> oli: wow that was quick
<jelkner> quick is good
<kjcole> jelkner, no.
<ogra> Yagisan, yup
<Yagisan> ogra: so still a tight fit on 64mb boxes
<JaneW> ooh I am lagging on the list mails we have a flight 2?
<ogra> my next upload will include the change to drop the linux-restricted-modules package from the thin client
<JaneW> ogra: and LiveCD?
<ogra> which will gain about 10-15 MB
<ogra> JaneW, is fine 
<ogra> see the announceent :)
* JaneW is trying to speed read
<JaneW> YAY
<Yagisan> other then myself and ogra, has anyone tested multi-arch out ?
* JaneW hugs ogra
<JaneW> you been stealthy ;)
<JaneW> well done !
<ogra> i was busy :)
<JaneW> mdz will be impressed (I hope)
<ogra> Yagisan, i tested it several times ... but i'd like to enhance it for ppc on amd64/i386, any input welcome
<Yagisan> ogra: I'm still think about using qemu for that
<flint> ogra, damn...I expect to begin testing here and I will rely on this page from you.
<ogra> flint, jelkner has alreaedy beaten you :) got my first bug reports ;)
<Yagisan> ogra: first I'll fix my fstab issues, send patch, then investigate how to get that going. should qemu work
<Yagisan> ogra: I'll need some people with real powerpc boxes to test the clients
<ogra> i'm not sure, i have no quemu experience at all... i use real HW
<flint> ogra, ollie, elkner is a whiner, of course he would file the first bugs...
<lucasvo> Yagisan: I have a iBook
<ogra> flint, he didnt file ;) he reported live :)
<flint> ogra, thus proving my point :^)
<ogra> heh
<flint> Yagisan, will a mac do as a power pc platform?
<ogra> yup
<Yagisan> it should 
<ogra> its the only thing i'll test here ...
<Yagisan> first I need the unpack to go succesfully
<ogra> unless someone donates me a netvista thin client :)
<flint> A lot of my stuff is still in storage, but I may have an angle here...Elkner what about Phil?
<Yagisan> I had that partially working around the time of breezys release, but I haven't picked it up since then
<kjcole> Flint, Shapiro?  Or another Phil?
<Yagisan> the issue I had was that qemu would run simple stuff like ls, dmesg but it died on bash, and the install failed (amd64 host)
<flint> kjcole, yes indeed Phil Shapiro.  He has truckloads of G3's and maybe a few G5's
<jelkner> yes he does
<jelkner> and i'm sure he would like to help
<jelkner> i only have about 12 minutes before students arrive, are we going to talk about docs?
<ogra> for now the ltsp install on ppc is still borked ... so yu guys have some time until my next upload arrives ;)
<ogra> i'm done as i said ...
<JaneW> are we done with tech stuff?
<JaneW> snap
<ogra> :)
<JaneW> good progress
<ogra> mostly CD testing ... it eats a lot of time ...
<JaneW> ogra: so is everything looking like smooth sailing to dapper?
<lucasvo> Yagisan: you are interested in testing ppc clients?
<ogra> JaneW, yup
<JaneW> ogra: excellent
<JaneW> ogra: and local devices, think there's a chance it will get sorted?
<ogra> JaneW, and i even got granted the right to upload myself while mdz is away ;)
<JaneW> ogra: cool, sneak stuff through... ;)
<JaneW> I never said that!
<Yagisan> lucasvo: yes - but I'm in Sydney
<ogra> there is still a meeting pending... i'll have to wait for mdz, but i'll start testing 
<JaneW> nod
<JaneW> ok documentation ->
<lucasvo> Yagisan: ssh isn't enough?
<ogra> sound is also awaiting his approval
<flint> JaneW, wait a minute i have to pick at a very important scab...
<Yagisan> lucasvo: I'd need a loaner for some testing
<JaneW> flint: you are incorigable!
<Yagisan> lucasvo: anyway - I'll let you know if/when I have something ready to test
<JaneW> (and I can't spell)
<flint> ogra, elkner says it will not be very dapper without local storage...
<Yagisan> flint: but ducks only have a limited amount of local storage anyway ...
<ogra> flint, the spec was always low/mid prio ...
<ogra> i have to care for the high priority stuff first ...
<ogra> and for the blocker bugs ...
<jelkner> flint: you were not available
<Yagisan> ogra: priority 1 - does it start, priority 2 - no BSOD :)
<jelkner> limited is ok, but we *some*
<ogra> flint, the other specs are likely to be implemented before edn of the year (at least locally) so i can spend the rest of my time on local devices ...
<flint> Yagisan, what is this a "flap" about storage?
<jelkner> ogra: great news!
<ogra> but still n promises ...
<flint> that would be sweet ollie! i would love to help...
<JaneW> flint: what about the scab...?
<JaneW> flint is Gold Memeber!
<flint> that is the itch! 
<flint> I would not want a duck with an itch...
<flint> on to the docs...
<kjcole> Meanwhile... Docs: We are getting more and more requests from folks wanting to help with the cookbook... which, while appreciated, I'm not sure we're ready for.  One thing is that I think some are still thinking "wiki" while we're thinking "PDF" and "HTML".  
<jelkner> besides, too many cooks spoil the cookbook
<kjcole> lucasvo asked a few minutes ago if we had a roadmap...  I guess the tuxlab table of contents is the closest approximation of a roadmap, such as it is.
<jelkner> things work well with a small group of folks who can work closely together
<irvin> the cookbook will be dapper-specific or will it include stuff from breezy?
<jelkner> but to maintain a consistent style and a well organized book, you really need just a few people
<ogra> it will be dapper and + 
<jelkner> ogra: we will need your help
<ogra> jelkner, for ? 
<jelkner> we have what was a chapter (which we are making an appendix) which describes the boot process in low level detail
<ogra> tech stuff ? 
<jelkner> yup
<jelkner> it will be a great appendix
<ogra> fine with me 
<jelkner> the current version describes ltsp
<flint> I will make myself available for bad prose and puns....
<ogra> so we have a 20 page cookbook and a 100 page appendix ? 
<irvin> haha
<jelkner> and since edubuntu is different, kevin and i will need your help
<ogra> :)
<lucasvo> a list of who is working on what would be gooda as well. 
<flint> and 300 pages of bug reports...
<jelkner> kevin said he would get in touch with you about that
<ogra> the basics of the bootprocess are the same ...
<kjcole> ogra, We're now in chapter 6, and an appendix.  The LTSP description in tuxLab goes into deep detail, which I gather, is wong.
<jelkner> you'll see when we send you the draft
<jelkner> a lot is different
<kjcole> jelkner, my bad.
<ogra> yup, i'll check out bzr ...
<flint> actually, are there any diagrams?
<jelkner> no
<jelkner> we could use some
<flint> I love diagrams, elkner knows from his system descriptions how much I like diagrams.
<jelkner> step on is to get the current edited version of the appendix to ogra
<jelkner> (kjcole will do that)
<JaneW> jelkner: it makes sense to keep the group containable and functional then, if you can manage the load...
<jelkner> then after ogra fixes it, we can talk to flint about adding a diagram
<JaneW> diagrams are great, the more the better IMO
<ogra> yup
<JaneW> makes it more interesting and accessable
<jelkner> JaneW: yes, jane
<jelkner> that is the only way to do it
<kjcole> ogra, expect that from me a bit later today.
<ogra> yup
<jelkner> since it is free content, folks can make whatever changes they want after we have a go at it
<jelkner> i guess that's it for the book
<lucasvo> I would like to have some list of who is doing what for the cookbook. 
<kjcole> The face-to-face meetings really help.  (As nice as IRC and gobby are, they're no substitute for simultaneously reading text aloud.)
<lucasvo> Because I don't have a clue who is doing what.
<lucasvo> kjcole: where do you live :D
<jelkner> luscasva: kevin and i are editing the first draft
<jelkner> that's about it
<flint> kjcole, elkner are skype-ing at this meeting.  I highly recommend this communication channel to all...
<ogra> lucasvo, > than 8h away from you 
<ogra> (with a plane ;) )
<lucasvo> skype doesn't work on my box
<flint> lucasvo, it took a lot of doing to get skype working under breezy...
<kjcole> lucasvo, just ignore flint. ;-)
<ogra> complain at skype, its closed source stuff, we cant do much about it ...
<lucasvo> yeah, thats why we should use gnome-meeting
<ogra> yup
<lucasvo> but that doesn't work on my machine, because I have blocked UDP
<flint> lucasvo, indeed, that is why stoom or gizmo might be a better fit.  funcitonally it is really quite nice..
<jelkner> lucasvo: are you trying to get involved in the book?
<lucasvo> jelkner: yes
<jelkner> ok, here is what we should do:
<kjcole> lucasvo, essentially, we're going through the tuxLab Cookbook, in order.  Much of it is well-written, and just has parts which need to be eliminated.   And now we're finally getting into specific differences like the LTSP boot process, which need to be replaced.
<jelkner> kevin and i are meeting next on jan 7 (sunday
<jelkner> )
<jelkner> could you join us remotely then?
<jelkner> 10 am EST
<kjcole> Eastern Standard (UTC - 5:00)
<flint> what a civilized hour to meet :^)
<jelkner> send us your email jeff@elkner.net
<jelkner> and we will get you the latest source before then
* kjcole is kjcole@gri.gallaudet.edu
<lucasvo> jelkner: 5 am in the morning?
<jelkner> well, we start then
<jelkner> and work until about 4 pm
<flint> lucasvo, I take it you are in "la bella italia"?
<jelkner> so you could join us later
<kjcole> luasvo: EST = UTC -5:00
<lucasvo> flint: no, switzerlad
<kjcole> lucasvo, So, 10:00 EST... You do the math for where you are.
<flint> lucasvo, a thousand pardons...
<lucasvo> it is 4 in the morning for me
<jelkner> anyway, our next work session is jan 7
<jelkner> we *start* at 4 
<jelkner> and work until 10 your time
<irvin> kjcole, jelkner can i join in too?
<ogra> lucasvo, 5:00 UTC is 6am in europe
<jelkner> what is the earliest you can jolin us?
<kjcole> Lucasvo: That can't be right...  10:00 EST should be 3:00 PM EST, if I'm not mistaken.
<kjcole> s /3:00 EST/ 3:00 UTC/
<flint> lucasvo, these people are like dairy farmers and the documentation is like a milk cow :^)
<JaneW> Our next meeting is Jan 11
<jelkner> irvin: send me an email: jeff@elkner.net
<lucasvo> jelkner: should I join the team?
<jelkner> so i can plan with you how to get something going
<lucasvo> jelkner: launchpad.com/people/lucasvo
<jelkner> sure
<jelkner> kevin set that up
<jelkner> i don't know concretely what it means yet
<jelkner> kevin?
<jelkner> s/jan 11/jan 7
<jelkner> oops
<kjcole> jelkner, not a whole lot.  ;-)  It's currently just a list of interested parties.
<ogra> JaneW, why dont we do one on jan 4th ? 
<jelkner> ok, so folks can join it if they wish, but send me an email if you want to be included in the planning
<irvin> thanks jelkner 
<JaneW> ogra: you can, but I will be on leave (and camping, so not available at all)
<kjcole> Lucasvo, the only real difference is that I have to "approve" you, which is more like a way for me to be alerted when people add their names in the launchpad team.
<ogra> there were several -fr people asking for a possibility to translate, since they are subscribed to the ML, could you CC the ml for planning ? 
<jelkner> ok, that about does it
<jelkner> ogra: ok, another issue
<jelkner> not a good idea yet
<flint> kjcole, for instance lucasvo, kevin would never approve me... :^(
<kjcole> jelkner, launchpad, bzr, web space?
<ogra> jelkner, why ? 
<jelkner> they would be translating a *very* moving target
<jelkner> think how much work that would be
<lucasvo> kjcole: I don't understand what you want to say
<ogra> as early as possible  i would think
<flint> kjcole, how is your experience with bzr?
<ogra> jelkner, my prob is that they start to develop totally independent documentation that i cant ever check (my french sucks)
<jelkner> ogra: yes, but that is the only way that makes sense
<ogra> so knowing they use our upstream source will give some safety about the correctnees of the content
<jelkner> the book is a global thing
<kjcole> lucasvo, regarding what?
<lucasvo> 13:50 < kjcole> Lucasvo, the only real difference is that I have to "approve" you, which is more like a way for me to be alerted when people add their names in the launchpad team.
<jelkner> when editing chapter x, we find that a change in chapter x - 5 will help clarify things
<jelkner> so the whole book is constantly changing
<jelkner> if they start translating now
<ogra> then they have to change it as well 
<jelkner> they would have to do it all again each week
<jelkner> a *lot* of work
<flint> ogra, the only thing to rely on is the outline/TOC... and even that remains in flux
<ogra> my concern is that they already do stuff and that some of it is really wrong ...
<kjcole> Lucasvo, you asked if you should "join the team".  I've set up a team on Launchpad, but it is restricted so that I get e-mail when someone adds themselves to the team.  Their membership waits until I approve it.
<ogra> additionally they developed a broken liveCD and people come to us, asking about fixes for example ...
<kjcole> Lucasvo, Unless it's flint, I approve them.
<ogra> i want coordination, as much as possible ...
<lucasvo> kjcole: aha, yes
<flint> kjcole, power corrupts...
<jelkner> ogra: i can coordinate the english version of the book
<jelkner> i would encourgage translators to wait
<ogra> jelkner, we need to coordinate beyond language borders, thats why i ask you to make the coordination public to all ...
<jelkner> unless you have enough of a team for an independent effort in another language
<jelkner> ogra: keep in mind, you can't write a book with dozens of contributors
<ogra> ...thats why i ask to CC the mailing lis in your coordination discussions
<jelkner> it won't work
<kjcole> Ogra, most of what we're doing so far isn't very technical, and is general enough to still be right: "What is an Operating System?"  "What is a Network"  "Why is Open Source a 'good thing'?"
<lucasvo> launchpad.net - not found...
<jelkner> it would be hugely helpful if we could get our work into bzr
<jelkner> then folks could just grab it and look at it
<ogra> jelkner, i just want you to make it public, i didnt say "acceppt 100 contributors"
<lucasvo> jelkner: what's the bzr kjcole has?
<ogra> they should just know whats going on
<jelkner> it is on a local machine he set up
<jelkner> it would be much better to have it on launchpad
<ogra> it will, if launchpad is ready
<jelkner> agian, we are stuck trying to learn to setup bzr, instead of focusing on writing the book
<ogra> the bzr archive is fine ...
<ogra> whats the prob ? 
<flint> kevin, where is version control?  
<jelkner> we can't commit
<kjcole> lucasvo, he meant launchpad, not bzr.
<ogra> you dont commit on the server ....
<flint> sounds like guy thing...
<kjcole> ogra, he meant push.
<ogra> you make a local branch and commit there ...
<ogra> and i still would suggest to leave the merging in one hand ... dont do all pushes to one source ... 
<flint> we have a big bzr understanding problem 
<lucasvo> can you reach launchpad?
<ogra> have one guy managing the merges of the branches
<ogra> how i work with mdz:
<flint> next week documentation time is about using bzr ok?  jane back me up!
<ogra> he has the master branch online ....
<ogra> i pull it locally, make my changes and commit ....
<JaneW> flint: knock yourself out
<jelkner> ok all, i need to go
<JaneW> on your own
<lucasvo> jelkner: I will contact you..
<ogra> then i push it up to my own server ...
<flint> kevin can you confirm that you have the master branch online
<jelkner> students arriving...
<JaneW> no meeting next week :P
<lucasvo> jelkner: are you in the launchpad team?
<ogra> and he does the merging
<jelkner> great
<lucasvo> jelkner: bye
<flint> JaneW, yea I have done that before...
<jelkner> bye
<JaneW> the next meeting is in 3 weeks time, and an unofficial one in 2 weeks
<flint> ok then week after all about bzr...
<lucasvo> JaneW: what time?
<JaneW> I am off for 2 weeks from friday WOOHOO
<ogra> lucasvo, as usual
<flint> JaneW, we need meeting time about use of bzr to go forward.
<lucasvo> ah, ok
<JaneW> first real leave since April 2004, cept for a long week end or 2
<ogra> flint, yes, but you can come to #edubuntu and we do it there ... informal ...
<JaneW> flint: you are welcome to have one anytime, even next week or the week after
<kjcole> flint, the master branch (root?) is on my machine.  Launchpad points to it.  However, it was intended to be there til moved to somewhere more official like Launchpad itself.  (Ogra tells me the launchpad super-mirror isn't ready for prime-time yet.)
<JaneW> lucasvo: always the same time 12:00 UTC
<flint> fine we will be there during the meeting on Sunday... will you be fresh and rested?
<lucasvo> JaneW: ok, even if it is unofficial
<JaneW> sunday
<JaneW> lucasvo: well I won;t be here, I guess those that are around will meet the normal time?
<lucasvo> ah, ok
<lucasvo> I can't reach launchpad
<kjcole> flint, one reason push/merge/whatever doesn't fly yet is because I didn't want to open up my little machine for "write access".  But pull works...
<JaneW> I seriously need some afk time and will even shut*my*laptop*down *gaspe*!
<flint> ogra, you likely need to teach kevin and kevin can then torture me with his superior knowledge...
<irvin> just leave the schedule on the fridge :)
<JaneW> it is on the fridge
<ogra> flint, in short its working how i described above ...
<Yagisan> JaneW: you turn off you laptop ?????
<JaneW> Yagisan: no but on Friday I am going to
<ogra> flint, everybody puts his branch online and doe his commits there... one merge master reviews and merges the work of the others in the main branch
<JaneW> we'll how see how long I last before turning it on again ;)
<ogra> flint, no magic involved
<flint> ogra, lemme attack this issue.   I see a problem to work on.
<kjcole> lucasvo, I'm thinking you've got network problems: First the bzr branch giving you troubles now launchpad.net...
<flint> elkner ment Sunday January 8th note the date!!!
<lucasvo> kjcole: atm I am in school with completely other net
<lucasvo> ah, maybe it is because I don't have https proxy
<kjcole> lucasvo, well that blows that theory.  Wrong me.
<ogra> flint, if the supermirror exists, you'll have your branch attached to your account on launchpad and the merge master will be able to merge stuff *on* launchpad
<JaneW> ok time is def up, let's move to #edubuntu?
<lucasvo> ah goood
<Yagisan> JaneW: I've always wondered what that button next to reset does ...
* ogra moves to #edbuntu
<lucasvo> kjcole: bzr was some python problem, now it is an issue of proxy
<flint> janew i move we move to breakfast.  see you on #edubuntu...
* kjcole moves to edubuntu
<lucasvo> hm, I can't join the team, kjcole
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:lucasvo] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ | 21 Dec 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 21 Dec 19:00 UTC:  Accessibility Team | 22 Dec 14:00 UTC:  Dapper Development Status | 30 Dec 22:00 UTC: DocTeam
<linbetwin> Hello, everyone!
<TheMuso> Hey all.
<dholbach> hellas!
<dholbach> I suppose we'll wait a bit for the others to arrive. :-)
<TheMuso> Yeah.
* kjcole is Kevin Cole
<kjcole> Hi. ;-)
* TheMuso checks email while he waits. It is much easier getting up early for something like this.
<kjcole> Hi ogra.
<linbetwin> hello all!
<dholbach> hey linbetwin, hno73 
<TheMuso> hno73: Just read and replied to your email, thanks
<hno73> hey dholbach
<linbetwin> hello, dholbach!
<sivang> hi all
<sivang> what meeting is that?
<sivang> ah , ally
<sivang> cool
* sivang is having hard time following the meetings with busy dayjob schedule, sorry
<kjcole> a11y 00ps ;-)  (If you didn't get it, never mind.)
<linbetwin> i always wondered why a11y for accessibility
<kjcole> sivang, I know the feeling.  I just told someone I was attending a meeting but wasn't sure which one.  Just that my alarm said "go". ;-)
<sivang> kjcole: hehe, I need that alarm as well
<dholbach> linbetwin: a<eleven letters>y
<TheMuso> Ok, so I think everybody is here...
<linbetwin> dholbach: thanks
* dholbach searches the Agenda on the wiki
<dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Team/MeetingAgenda
<hno73> Looks like there aren't much in need of deciding, but some good work has been done since last meeting
<dholbach> jgrieves: do you want to start with your items on the agenda?
<dholbach> yeah, and i was impressed with the amount of people signing up on the mailing list
<TheMuso> Cool!
<dholbach> we're more and more taking off :-)
<dholbach> maybe henrik better starts with his items, while we're waiting for jason - does that make sense?
<hno73> yeah, I might have leave early as well
<hno73> Did anyone look at the testing plans?
* dholbach is honest and has a look *now* :)
* TheMuso skimmed them.
<hno73> We've ended up slitting it up into very simple tests and then more in-depth reviews
<hno73> Not so much the tests them selves, but this way of doing it
<dholbach> i'd move the legend (explaining v1-v7)  above the table
<TheMuso> dholbach: I agree.
<dholbach> i meant v1-v3, m1-m3
<TheMuso> As for logging in, that is not possible at all AFAIK without setting it up.
<hno73> kjcole: I was thinking about including an h1 for hearing impairments, but I thought that might need to be done in a different way
<TheMuso> It is not as easy as loading gnopernicus etc.
<hno73> kjcole: focusing on educational apps, as you have pointed out
<hno73> TheMuso: so that is one that we can register as a failure straight off
<hno73> also useful
<kjcole> hno73, I confess I haven't had much time to work on a11y stuff, though I did start wikify-ing TheMuso's page (I think it was his).
<TheMuso> kjcole: Which one?
* TheMuso must start working through some of these and commenting on them.
<hno73> kjcole: but in general you would agree that there isn't a problem of too much use of sound to convey information on the desktop
<hno73> but rather that the issues are more subtle
<kjcole> TheMuso, Hell, if I know. ;-) There was a page saying "Obsolete.  Please put [URL]  in the wiki."
<hno73> I think that was Jason's page
<kjcole> TheMuso: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Documentation
<TheMuso> Yeah that was Jason's. I just put it up somewhere so others could have a look at it.
<kjcole> TheMuso: From http://www.themuso.com/ubuntu/accessibility/GNOME_Accessibility_Overview_For_Ubuntu.txt
<TheMuso> Yeah not mine.
<hno73> Basically I guess the exact nature of the tests ins not that important. we need to start doing testing and then filing bugs
<dholbach> yeah
<dholbach> and i think your page is a good start
<hno73> including to upstreams like OpenOffice and Firefox
<hno73> I think Jason has been making good progress with mozilla
<kjcole> hno73: I don't think I'd worry too much about the use of the variety of sounds...  If there's some generic visual indication that "a sound has happened" it would be somewhat helpful, but a lot of sounds aren't strictly necessary.
<hno73> Ok, so I'll clean that up a bit more and then appeal to the wider community for help with testing
<jgrieves> sorry all had a family emerg.
<jgrieves> greetings!
<dholbach> yeah, we should start blogging, writing to mailing lists and invite people as much as we can
<hno73> kjcole: right
<hno73> dholbach: yeah, we have the basic infrastructure now
<dholbach> yeah i'm happy to see this all emerging to quickly
<TheMuso> jgrieves: Hey
<jgrieves> alright jsut to let you know firefox is getting much better with magnification
<kjcole> hno73: In an ideal world, people would be able to choose different colored flashes, different regions or different animations for events in the same way that they can with sounds, but I think the more essential problem relates to language.
<jgrieves> it was really unusable, Gen Chen @ Sun is taking the lead
<dholbach> jsgotangco's blog entry was nice, but since then, nothing much happened (from somebody's point of view, who's not subscribed to all mailing list)
<jgrieves> TheMuso: I threw your gnome-mag packages into dapper it seemd to run fine
<TheMuso> Right.
<linbetwin> jgrieves: so is that bug about the focus moving to the top left corner solved?
<jgrieves> TheMuso: i can't seem to find that bug @ ubuntu but last I saw, it was on hold because the owner (Daniel?) couldn't get it to run in Dapper
<hno73> dholbach: but we have a cunning plan of getting on osnews every two weeks or so
<hno73> :)
<jgrieves> linbetwin yep, I  built the latest with CVS and that is now solved, included another problem, with focus getting lost in text boxes
<dholbach> hno73: wow, that's ambitious :)
<jgrieves> linbetwin those patches should be included in the next FF update, hopefully should see that in Dapper
<hno73> dholbach: did you see http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=12942 ?
<linbetwin> jgrieves: great!
<dholbach> yeah, that was super
<hno73> jgrieves: is working on a review now that we'll post up as well
<hno73> And I have a couple in the pipeline
<jgrieves> hno73: yep, i sent to list, I have another couple pages left
<dholbach> it'd be great to have bugs we monitor upstream
<hno73> I'm sure there are ways we can tie in with this on-going Mass ODF story as well
<hno73> jgrieves: yeah it looks good
<jgrieves> hno73 just a start :) I got tired at 3 AM :)
<hno73> :)
<hno73> So Ubuntu Express looks like it might be quite useable for us
<jgrieves> hno73: that is great, I was following progress and sharing with others, I  think this will be a big story for us if we do it well
<TheMuso> hno73: Any idea when that might start appearing on the CDs?
<hno73> how do people feel about using the m1...v3 codes as boot codes on the live CD?
<TheMuso> They will need to be very well explained.
<TheMuso> Even then I am not sure.
<hno73> TheMuso: no not really. I'll catch up with Kamion about it again soon
<jgrieves> hno73: it took me a while to figure that one out on the page but its pretty logical
<crimsun> something less esoteric than m1...v3, perhaps
<hno73> the point is that those codes would be well advertised on the website, even on the CD cover perhaps
<TheMuso> Yeah that could work.
<hno73> if we send out CDs to special groups there can be a notice in an appropriate format
<hno73> like braille even
<jgrieves> we thought about putting out braille documentationw ith CD's?
<jgrieves> hno73: great minds think alike :)
<hno73> :)
<kjcole> Oops.  Minor fires here at the office.  I guess I'm going to have to catch the rest of this in the logs.  Sorry 'bout that.
<hno73> once the CD has the option then it's just a matter of making people aware
<jgrieves> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Documentation a major thanks to kjcole for helping me get most of this straightend up
<jgrieves> hno73 i think your right.  Once aware it seems pretty simplistic
<hno73> Ok, so I'll keep the gteam posted on updates wrt UE
<hno73> cool
<hno73> ok, I'm done with my points
<hno73> jgrieves: you hade some otems?
<TheMuso> For those who are interested, I have been talking to hno73 about the inclusion of speakup, and it seems that it may not be so much of a problem as was first thought.
<hno73> items
<jgrieves> the documentation really needs some work with gnome for blind usrs, now I can definitely fill in the sections I have, but would like some definitely help with increasing content
<hno73> Yeah, the kernel devs are positive about trying to put it in the main kernel
<TheMuso> I can certainly help with the screen reader/speech aspect, but since I don't have a braille device, I am unable to help regarding that.
<hno73> which is great! fingers crossed it goes smoothly
<jgrieves> TheMuso progress on the /Speakup page?
<TheMuso> jgrieves: No, including speakup into the Ubuntu kernel.
<hno73> jgrieves: no I've been emailing with the ubuntu kernel maintainers
* TheMuso intends to fetch an mm tree later today to have a look at what version is there.
<jgrieves> TheMuso: yeah :) I was talking about anything since my first reading of the page
<hno73> so some testing from our side would be great
<TheMuso> Indeed.
<jgrieves> are our kernel people sounding optomistic?
<TheMuso> I may contact BenC on IRC later to ask about it.
<hno73> jgrieves: yes indeed
<TheMuso> jgrieves: To them, as long as it doesn't stomp over too much other stuff, and it doesn't really, it should be fine.
<hno73> though it's still untested, so I prefer not to count chickens :)
<jgrieves> hno73: great
<TheMuso> I would be happy to give it a workout.
<hno73> I'm guessing it will be in module form, so optional
<jgrieves> I can throw it on a virtual machine
<TheMuso> I will also put up a guide as to how to get it working with software speech for those who want to try it out.
<jgrieves> TheMuso great
<hno73> Cool, I guess we'll see it in the wild in a week or two
* TheMuso makes his way to his local kernel.org mirror.
<jgrieves> TheMuso your the only one i know who tested my full screen magnification instructions, anybody else?
<jgrieves> TheMuso: my new review has some "workarounds" I will need people to see how well they work,
<hno73> jgrieves: I should try as well. I've only tried half screen before
<jgrieves> hno73 definitely.  Of possible just use my documentation and see how well it is written, I want it to be easy to follow
<hno73> Has anyone tried it on two acreens?
<jgrieves> and eventually scripted
<hno73> jgrieves: cool, will do
<TheMuso> I haven't as I only have one monitor here.
<hno73> awesome :)
<jgrieves> hno73 nope, can you send a 21'' lcd for christmas? :)
<hno73> hm, the 21" ones are still quite expensive :)
<hno73> but the 19" ones are good value IMO :)
<TheMuso> Indeed. I would like to replace my CRT with a 21" LCD one day.
* hno73 has one, and is glad as I spend a lot of time in front of it
<jgrieves> so where do we stand with the gnome-mag packages? hno73 and Luke, you tested on dapper yet?
<hno73> jgrieves: about your wiki navigation point. That's just a macro in the page, so I can fix that
<jgrieves> hno73: cool, i'm not sure what is most usable as I was never the best web developer, but some seem to be at top, others at bottom
* hno73 did an install of dapper which failed to get net access. will try again
<hno73> jgrieves: ccool, I'll do that
<TheMuso> jgrieves: Yes I have. I have no problems, however when dholbach tried to test it, he encountered something weird.
<TheMuso> dholbach: Any progress?
<hno73> btw, speaking of web. try: http://gentoo.warthogs.hbd.com:8003/ubuntu
<jgrieves> TheMuso i was worried with the new 7.0 we hit some new bugs in fixes/damage, but both of ours seems to be fine
<hno73> using the View > stylesheets menu you can change themes
<hno73> it's meant to work by clicking the eye logo
<hno73> but it's still a bit broken
<jgrieves> View > Page Style, very cool!!
<hno73> I hope to implement that accross our websites and wikis
<hno73> (there will be slightly fewer options though)
<jgrieves> i like that on the fly action :)
<hno73> I guess high contrast will small letters is a bit pointless
<jgrieves> TheMuso: can you send link to that bug? I can't find it
<hno73> So the plan is to have the best accessible site of any distro
<hno73> at the very least :)
<TheMuso> http://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=20320
<jgrieves> hno73: makes sense, if we built it, they will come :)
<jgrieves> TheMuso: ty, will add comments so we can get this show on the road
<hno73> getting a website AT award would be very cool. then we would get linked to from relevant places
<jgrieves> hno73, very, how well does the wiki work with screen readers?  TheMuso?
<TheMuso> jgrieves: Very well, at least on the console with links2. A bit hard to edit pages though.
<kjcole> Back.
<hno73> jgrieves: I think it still has the navigation stuff at the top, which is not so good
<hno73> It's quite hard to fix though :(
<jgrieves> TheMuso: cool.  have we done extensive testing with JAWS or Gnopernicus?
<hno73> I'll probably need to work with upstream on that
<jgrieves> my guess is most disabled users who might want to take the plunge would start in Windows with Jaws/WindowWise
<TheMuso> jgrieves: JAWS is alright, but haven't given it a real work out. Haven't tried with gnopernicus due to the firefox support being crap. Haven't tried with 1.5 yet.
<jgrieves> TheMuso: my FF with gnopernicus ws pretty good, most problems I had were poor website coding
<TheMuso> jgrieves: What about speech?
<jgrieves> TheMuso: but I am not very good with the screen reader, haven't learned hot keys or that really weird...control.thingy they have
* hno73 is getting visitors from overseas now, so I'll have to run ...
<TheMuso> With carrot browsing mode?
<jgrieves> TheMuso: yep that's what I tested, it read the pages, hit pictures, etc
<TheMuso> hno73: No problem. Have a merry Christmas.
<hno73> Thanks everyone :)
<jgrieves> hno73: merry Christmas! did u email me?
<TheMuso> We will discuss next meeting etc in a week or so.
<hno73> jgrieves: earlier today yes
<jgrieves> hno73: if that's you, i'll reply with details after I get a big chucnk worked out, but thanks! that is exactly what i wanted
<jgrieves> going into draft number 2
<jgrieves> so i have a good iddea what i need to focus/improve
<jgrieves> not the most active discussion today huh?  were is Daniel?
<TheMuso> Good question.
<TheMuso> PhantomsDad: Have you had much to do with KDE's magnifier?
<PhantomsDad> TheMuso: No, Gunnar and Olaf would be the ones to talk to.
<TheMuso> We have been discussing test plans for magnification with GNOME etc, and have been considering testing the KDE accessibility tools.
<TheMuso> hmmm ok.
<PhantomsDad> The mag that Gunnar is working on has not been released yet and the code is not available.
<PhantomsDad> Gunnar must first obtain ok from his doctoral mentor.
<PhantomsDad> He must defend his thesis before it can be released.
<jgrieves> PhantomsDad: how well doe sit keep with focus in KDE?
* TheMuso wonders why most things have to depend on academia.
<PhantomsDad> Gunnar demoed it at aKademy.  I'll get the link..
<jgrieves> i know in Gnome without the AT turned on gnome-mag won't follow keyboard, and then some apps dont even work with that...
* TheMuso must really poke the GNOME folks about speech-dispatcher.
<jgrieves> there is the man!
<dholbach> i flew out the net, sorry :-(
<dholbach> the connection at my parents place seems a bit flaky
<jgrieves> i sure as heck wasn't going to lead this crazy party, blind leading the blind :)
<TheMuso> hahaha.
<TheMuso> dholbach: I have managed to get PhantomsDad to join, a dev from the KDE accessibility project.
<dholbach> oh nice
<TheMuso> Have you any questions? His area is mainly kttsd stuff.
<dholbach> hello PhantomsDad 
<PhantomsDad> hello
<dholbach> what were you talking about in the time, when i was away?
<TheMuso> Since this is a meeting channel, and we seem to be finished, should we maybe move this elsewhere?
<dholbach> i'll read the irclog
<TheMuso> dholbach: Mainly user testing, and magnification stuff, particularly relating to docs.
<PhantomsDad> Here's a transcript of Gunnar's talk, but I'm afraid it won't answer your question. :/ http://wiki.kde.org/tiki-index.php?page=KDE+for+Partially+Sighted+Users
<jgrieves> cool i'm looking forward to KDE 4.0 + accessibility
<TheMuso> jgrieves: So am I. If it is better than GNOME's, I am switching.
<TheMuso> Particularly if the speech system is using SD (speech-dispatcher)
<jgrieves> TheMuso: the KDE folks seem to have such a large group of developers, i haven't ever made the switch because of lack of accessibility
<linbetwin> jgrieves: i tested kmag in KDE 3.4.2, 3.4.3 and 3.5 in various distros
<jgrieves> TheMuso: information on speech-dispatcher?
<jgrieves> linbetwin: how well did it keep focus?  
<TheMuso> jgrieves: KDE intend to use speech-dispatcher as their speech back-end which IMO is a really good idea.
<jgrieves> TheMuso: link on information?  I haven't really heard of it before
<linbetwin> jgrieves: it doesn't follow keyboard focus at all, but it's much better at rendering the magnified area (no black blocks)
<TheMuso> speech-dispatcher is a daemon and API that provides applications like screen readers to be able to output speech. Speech-dispatcher handles the various synthesizers that are available.
<jgrieves> PhantomsDad: is that demo linked somewhere on that page?
<jgrieves> TheMuso: sounds much more powerful than what we have now
<TheMuso> jgrieves: Indeed.
<jgrieves> linbetwin: does it use composite?
<TheMuso> I am digging around to see if I can find a speech-dispatcerh gnome-speech driver anywhere.
<linbetwin> jgrieves: i don't know what composite is
<jgrieves> TheMuso: asked gnome-accessibility? the sun folks might know
<jgrieves> linbetwin composite extension for X, what future screen mags will be using as a major back-end
<TheMuso> jgrieves: I might have to.
<jgrieves> TheMuso: or build your own :)
<linbetwin> jgrieves: i really don't know
<linbetwin> but the magnified image is much cleaner than in gnome-mag
<linbetwin> but it can't be docked to the edge of the screen
<jgrieves> linbetwin yeah there were major limitations, i couldn't really use it in a work environemtn
<linbetwin> and it has a superfluous title bar
<jgrieves> linbetwin gnome-mag + full screen + TheMuso's fixes to gnome-mag + my workarounds actually works pretty well
<jgrieves> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Reviews/Gnome-Mag#preview
<TheMuso> Anyway folks, thanks for the talk/meeting. If you wish to discuss anything further with me I can be found in #ubuntu-accessibility. I would like to see that channel used more. :)
<linbetwin> jgrieves: i don't think i can use full screen magnification. I'm used to a having a window at the lower bottom of the screen
<jgrieves> TheMuso: agreed we are lonely in there :) now that i am back home i plan to idle with you hehe
<jgrieves> linbetwin: cool, whatever works for you.  i went crazy with 50% of my screen being used
<jgrieves> linbetwin: of course i don't use it on a regular basis
<jgrieves> TheMuso i'll keep up to date on that bug 
<jgrieves> TheMuso i added my comments you might want to do the same, I really want to get these in dapper
<jgrieves> TheMuso: and I will probably get some work done on the documentation.  I would love your input in the speech part, especially with the console
<jgrieves> TheMuso: I would like ot focus on the other sections improvement with screen shots and better details
<linbetwin> jgrieves: any word on when is OOo going to support gnome-mag?
<jgrieves> linbetwin nope, after getting on Firefox that is my next battle
<linbetwin> jgrieves: I've noticed that some Gnome apps work with gnome-mag and some don't. is that something that can be easily fixed?
<jgrieves> linbetwin: are they just gtk apps or gnome apps?
<jgrieves> linbetwin: before running a gtk app, run
<jgrieves> export GTK_MODULES=gail:atk-bridge
<jgrieves> then run the app from the console, if you see "Accessibility Support initialized" everything the developer has put into the app should be brought ot hte attention fo the AT
<linbetwin> for ex. gnomeradio, gedit and gnome-terminal work 
<jgrieves> yep
<linbetwin> in FF's adress bar the focus goes to the center of the address bar, not to the cursor
<jgrieves> yeah that may be an FF bug, have you tested with latest CVS?
<kjcole> Time for some non-Ubuntu work.  Bye...
<linbetwin> no, i hope to do that this weekend
<linbetwin> bye, kjcole
<jgrieves> linbetwin k, keep em updated, and use the wiki
<jgrieves> i am trying to follow firefox closely
<jgrieves> the sun developer is working hard on 'em now, so we should get him while he's focused
<linbetwin> ok
<jgrieves> ok lunch for me! see ya
<linbetwin> bon appetit! see ya!
<jgrieves> hha thanks
#ubuntu-meeting 2005-12-27
<pitti> moin
<janimo> hey pitti
<slomo_> hi pitti 
<ogra> moin
<mvo> hi
<JaneW> surprising few updates were sent to me....
* mvo needs to preapre his notes
<JaneW> I hope this mean we have a full house today, not just that everyone is AWOL :)
<JaneW> or even AWL
<doko> hi
* ogra glres at the smallishness of this weeks notes he has
* dholbach forgot to update too
<pitti> whatever ogra just did, /me does the same
<seb128> hi
<pitti> hey seg
<pitti> seb, too
<seb128> hey martin :)
<ogra> pitti, flight2 ate 2 days of my week ... so most was CD related stuff here ...
<ogra> that refkects in my report ...
<ogra> *reflects
<JaneW> ok 14:00UTC on my clock
<pitti> ogra: I meant  'glres'
<pitti> hi infinity 
<pitti> hey daniels 
* pitti waves to Australia
<Kamion> hi all
<daniels> g'evening
<ogra> pitti, yes, i can glre very well :)
<Riddell> hi
<JaneW> where's BenC?
<pitti> ogra: shame on you
<ogra> heh
<JaneW> hi ben
<pitti> JaneW: summoning powers?
<BenC> hello
<Riddell> are we doing "next weeks" today?
<JaneW> heh
<JaneW> who else is missing
<Kamion> JaneW: did Diziet send an update? although he only worked one day in the period
<BenC> make sure I'm not first this week, I need a minute to type things up :)
* ogra has "christmas" for next week ...
<JaneW> Riddell: yes planned activities for 2 weeks (if any) and then in 2 weeks we'll do progress for 2 weeks back...
<Kamion> missing Keybuk, krstic, Lathiat
<JaneW> Kamion: no, I have updates from Daniels and Mithrandir only
<Kamion> ok, that's not a problem for this week I should think
<daniels> i can do mine
<JaneW> yes reminder that there is NO meeting next week - you can all rest :)
<fabbione> should we start?
<JaneW> yes
<jbailey> Sure. =)
<JaneW> daniels: go
<daniels> this week: x11r7 rc4 updates, x11r7 final (wooooooooooooooo!), further fixification of xserver-xorg scripts
<pappan> yep
<daniels> friday: x11r7 final updates
<Kamion> I'm going to assume Keybuk's on leave, but no record of it
<daniels> x-roadmap: almost at x11r7; scripts looking in decent shape now
<daniels> blocked: none
<JaneW> thanks
<JaneW> no huge issues with X?
<pitti> still the ati breakage
<ogra> and trident (i owe daniels a debug session here)
<daniels> JaneW: we're seeing some minor breakage on trident (who uses it anyway), and modern ati chips on powerpc
<mvo> dri does not work on my r350
<daniels> JaneW: the solution for the latter should be relatively easy to come by
<mvo> not too important though
<ogra> and for the first i havent yet tested the laes driver :)
<mvo> given that it never even remotely worked before :)
<ogra> *latest
<JaneW> ok great, dholbach you ready?
<dholbach> inclusion-of-docs: did another update, fixed a bug
<dholbach> this week: bug triage, bug day, motu mentoring, random bug fixes, random packages updates, a11y team
<dholbach> next weeks: merges, gnome 2.13.4, bug triage, motu mentoring
<JaneW> ok, doko
<doko> this week:
<doko> - openoffice.org: support work, fixing firefox-dev, preparation and upload of 2.0.1 packages
<doko> - python-roadmap: delayed for next week
<doko> next week:
<doko> - openoffice.org: powerpc build
<doko> - python-roadmap: python-central update
<doko> status:
<doko> - toolchain-roadmap: amd64-biarch (still blocked)
<doko> - toolchain-dapper+1: blocked by preparation of wanna-build and buildd infrastructure
<doko> - openoffice-gnome: not started, martink will work on testsuite packaging and gnome integration testing (i.e. file selector in January)
<doko> - openoffice-help: now approved, martink will work on it in January
<doko> - openoffice-spellchecking: not started
<doko> - native-java-gcj: infrastructure is ready, packaging of -gcj binary packages not started
<doko> java-roadmap: mostly done, pending are eclipse updates and the native-java-gcj support
<JaneW> dholbach: sorry to regress is mjg59 going to come and represent power-management-configuration?
<JaneW> doko: is the amd block serious?
<pitti> doko: does that mean OO.o builds against ffox-dev now?
<ogra> JaneW, it works fine as is currently 
<dholbach> JaneW: i didn't ask him to appear at this meeting
<ogra> JaneW, power-management that is
<JaneW> dholbach: if he is handling to goal it would be nice to get updates, even e-mail would be fine
* ogra would call it implemented
<dholbach> JaneW: ok
<doko> JaneW: it's on it's way, jbailey did have other priorities this week
<JaneW> kamion: sorry I kind of took over jump in and grab the reigns if you like ;)
<doko> pitti: yes
* pitti hugs doko
<pitti> THAAANK YOU
<doko> pitti: please test it ;-)
<JaneW> fabbione: next
<Kamion> no problem, I was just being seb's archive bitch for a moment
<fabbione> * server-candy: md5sum client is basically ready. Blocked on admins (rt: #723). Other stuff will be started soon.
<fabbione> * ubuntu-cluster: no progress this week.
<fabbione> * probe-for-root-filesystem: no progress this week.
<fabbione> * boot-from-usb: blocked by probe-for-root-filesystem.
<fabbione> * merges: zlib - still pending libc6-i386-dev, one minor pending but it's no hurry at all.
<fabbione> * last week: md5sum client and server-candy work, kernel-security.
<fabbione> * next (working) week: kernel security, more on server-candy. scheduled to change the default kernel install on -server.
<JaneW> fabbione: the kernel testing today - all ok?
<Kamion> fabbione: we'll need to talk about the default kernel for -server stuff, may not be entirely trivial
<fabbione> JaneW: yes, new kernels are in, but we have a regression on the previous security update that's not fixed yet
<fabbione> Kamion: yes. hence next (working) week
<JaneW> hi mjg59, thanks for coming, if you have a power-management-configuration update, that would be great...
<fabbione> JaneW: the situation is complex and not trivial to fix, but we are working hard on it.
<JaneW> infinity: you ready?
<fabbione> JaneW: expect delay due to that
<JaneW> fabbione: ok, understood
<infinity> JaneW: Sure.
<JaneW> fabbione: let me know if it gets serious please
<fabbione> JaneW: yup
<infinity> Last week: Much mucking with kernel stuff, preparation of security updates, and lots and lots of buildd fixes and administration.
<mjg59> JaneW: A brief one, yup
<JaneW> mjg59: yup that's what we are after :)
<infinity> Friday: Finish up and publish security updates, fix up and upload *-docs updates to breezy, and VAC my heart out.
<JaneW> iwj: is on leave right?
<Kamion> JaneW: yes
<JaneW> k
<JaneW> jbailey: 
<Kamion> since Friday
<jbailey> * ToolchainRoadmap:  Sorry about lag.  Found another bug which held it up, and then meetings, my X crashing (fixed now), and general other work distracted me.  I'm not off all of next week, so it'll be sitting in the NEW queue when the archive admins get back.
<jbailey> * ToolchainRoadmapNg: After the glibc biarch, will start to evaluate glibc needs. Want to start collecting feedback on dropping pre-i686 per  outstanding issues 
<jbailey> * General:
<jbailey> - I have klibc fixes for ia64, hppa, and for Tollef's squishfs.  It's chasing kernel headers bugs at the moment, might be today or tomorrow and then initrd-tools can go away forever.
<jbailey> - I really will finish punting most of my bugs this week.  Maybe right after this meeting so that it's done.
<jbailey> - Thanks to all in general for being really helpful when I come to you for help with support requests.
<Kamion> jbailey: I can do low-level archive admin during elmo's holiday, although I'll be entirely offline for at least a few days between Christmas and New Year
<JaneW> kamion: you're up.
<jbailey> Kamion: Cool.  It won't be time-urgnet, just nice to not have it wait until January.  Thanks.
<Kamion> otherwise, sounds good, thanks
<Kamion> misc: I only worked for two days this week, so not much done. Had locales meeting with pitti/doko/Mithrandir/jbailey, which went well.
<Kamion> cd-bootloader: Implemented expert mode toggle-switch for the install CD; enabled CD timeout again for the install CD following feedback on -devel; fiddled with video mode handling following bug feedback.
<Kamion> ubuntu-express-bootloader: Rearranged grub-installer a bit to allow espresso-grub to be written sanely; built a test version which seems to more or less work. Poked a bit at the Guadalinex code until I can at least run it and start doing incremental improvement on it. Now working on the user/password stage which has actual user interaction and stuff.
<Kamion> blocked: nothing much, for a change
<Kamion> January I hope to really dig in and just plough through ue-*.
<Kamion> maybe hide in a cave for a week or something
<doko> Kamion: when is the next flight scheduled?
<Kamion> doko: not scheduled currently
<JaneW> end of Jan?
<Kamion> my guess is second week of Jan if possible
<JaneW> ok, wow
<Kamion> JaneW: that's pretty late
<pitti> around feature freeze would be nice
<Kamion> feature freeze is ages away
<pitti> for this flight we should do a full scale test
<pitti> oh, I though 19 Jan?
<ogra> around UVF rather ...
<pitti> ah, that was UVF
<mvo> uvf
<pitti> sorry
<Kamion> full scale testing is welcome at any time, if anything *not* right next to a Flight CD release
<Kamion> feel free to take Flight CD 2 and do full-scale test runs on it
<daniels> i'm going to be breaking X early Jan, probably
<infinity> Kamion: : While I'm at the in-laws' place, I have lots of computers here I wouldn't normally test on, so I'll boot some CDs here.
<daniels> when I dump the new xserver-xorg scriptage and x{,server,org}-common -> x11-common merge
<Kamion> OK, Keybuk is apparently not around; Jane, can you check with him by e-mail? I think he's been on leave but can't find a notice of that in any of the usual places.
<Kamion> daniels: noted
* JaneW neither was just looking, I will ping him...
<Kamion> Mithrandir?
<JaneW> Mithrandir:
<JaneW> - openoffice-amd64: no progress
<JaneW> - live-cd-performance: been experimenting with squashfs as well as squashfs-lzma, which a) gives us either 5% extra space or 18% extra space (that's 25 and 84MB on the CD. I haven't tested booting with squashfs-lzma, but just squashfs cuts nearly off the time from the live cd is booted until when I/O is silenced. Squashfs requires unionfs, since it's a read-only FS and therefore won't work on ppc dueto unionfs bugs.
<JaneW> - one-true-path: no progress
<JaneW> - simplified-livecd: usplash problem debugged, language/keyboard selection still needs to change, but that is blocked on the locales changes (pitti). Apart from that, seems to work well.
<JaneW> - media-integrity-check: no progress, but the rest should be trivial.
<JaneW> - network-authentication: no progress, one interested community member who is going to give me some background information on what changes are needed.
<JaneW> - livecd-squashfs: accidentially implemented in casper, needs some changes in the build system and we need to decide on squashfs or squashfs-lzma.
<JaneW> - blocked on: locales changes, decision on squashfs-lzma, squashfs or continue with cloop.
<JaneW> - plans for next week: more vacation. 
<jbailey> "accidentally implemented"?
<JaneW> yes that was a bit alarming...
<JaneW> not sure what it mean exactly
<pitti> JaneW: the locales block is done
<Kamion> I think it turned out to be substantially easier than he'd thought
<JaneW> pitti: great, thanks
<Kamion> either that or he intended to make it non-default and accidentally made it the default
<Kamion> either way, new casper is still definitely work-in-progress
<infinity> Nah, it's not the default, since the livefs isn't squash yet on the buildds. :)
<infinity> But it's a simple switch we can flick to make it go, once the kinks are worked out.
<infinity> Which is cool.
<Kamion> good, good
<Kamion> all the code checked in there?
<infinity> Not as yet, since he's still evaluating the best settings to build it, etc.
<Kamion> ok
<Kamion> mvo?
<mvo> Did:
<mvo> - dbus 0.60 transition (package + dependencies) [DapperDesktopPlan] 
<mvo> - prepared new libnotify/notify-daemon, tested
<mvo>   send bugs upstream  [DapperDesktopPlan] 
<mvo> - gnome-app-install work, implemented filter on unsupported/proprietary, fixed bugs, worked around problem with pymozembed, rewrote the desktop/icon extraction code [ThirdPartyPackages] 
<mvo> - backported unattended-upgrades (and python-apt) to breezy to get testing feedback from real users
<mvo> [AutomaticUpdates] 
<mvo> Will do:
<mvo> - christmas 
<mvo> - do the libnotify/notify-daemon transition (api/abi change) 
<mvo> - more work on ThirdPartyPackages spec
<Kamion> good work on the dbus transition work, that seems to have been very quick and fairly smooth
<daniels> yes, thanks for that
<mvo> thanks :) yes, nothing major broken, only some hal problems
<jbailey> And ephy. ;)
<ogra> even you didnt announce it to u-d-a for lwn fame :)
* jbailey hides.
<mvo> jbailey: ephy is a mozilla problem :)
<dholbach> jbailey: should be fixed now
* mvo really should have send that mail to get fame and glorry
<ogra> yeah
<ogra> yu deserve it :)
<azeem> 2
<dholbach> mvo: we love you nevertheless :)
<azeem> argh
<ogra> my turn ? 
<Kamion> ogra?
<ogra> * thin-client-sound: waiting for mdz to approve on return
<ogra> * thin-client-local-devices: no progress, meeting with sbalneav still pending
<ogra> * thin-client-memory-usage: some more script changes locally done and tested
<ogra> * thin-client-faster-startup: spec awaiting approval, 
<ogra> * gnome-screensaver-default-image: no progress yet, waiting for sabdfl images :)
<ogra> * general: most time spent for flight2 testing, worked on ltsp fixes and tests (partially related to the specs), edubuntu-artwork for breezy bugfix (done locally, waiting for infinity feedback on the general change), dhcpd upgrade issue discussed solution pending.
<ogra> * next week: mainly christmas, will do some further ltsp stuff (mem usage and faster startup related) alongside...
<seb128> jbailey: I fixed epiphany
<ogra> somehow i find many testers for edubuntu flight CDs, but nobody seems willing to test *before* a flight is released :/
<Kamion> Do try to get some relaxation in over Christmas, everyone. :)
* jbailey hugs seb128
<Kamion> ogra: a problem I'm well familiar with :-/
<Kamion> pitti?
* seb128 hugs jbailey
<pitti> this week: locales restructuring, caught up with the insane bug mail backlog, libsysfs transition, various bug fixes, xine and kernel security updates, sickness
<pitti> still today/tomorrow morning: poke infinity some more to really get PHP security update done before Christmas, fix grave bugs in cups' conffile handling
<pitti> no progress on specs this week; PLAN for first week of January: continue with gstreamer-audio-backend now that we have gst 0.10
<JaneW> pitti: you getting better yet?
<pitti> JaneW: yes, full speed again today :)
<JaneW> cool
<Riddell> pitti: dare I ask about main inclusion reviews?
<pitti> I had no time for those yet
<pitti> avahi is crying, I know
<ogra> pitti, so approve gobby, i'll upload 0.3.0 today ;)
<pitti> but it'll take me half a day to properly review it
<Riddell> fair enough
* pitti does not feel well about gobby
<pitti> anyway, if you really need avahi soon, I only do a short review and do a source code review later
<ogra> its a edubuntu target for dapper, whats wrong with it ? 
<pitti> what about it?
<pitti> ogra: it has ugly bugs, and never saw an audit before
<pitti> young network code, and such
<dholbach> we will surely test gobby at the sprint ;)
<pitti> security is probably a non-issue
<ogra> most of the bugs should e fixed for 0.3.0 ...
<infinity> gobby is pretty vile, as far as visible bugs, that doesn't bode well for the unseen bugs.
<jbailey> I'd love to have a conversation about gobby outside of this meeting and possible look at writing a tool that actually meets our needs instead of almost meeting them but not quite.
<pitti> but my experiences with gobby were pretty badf
<jbailey> Anyone interested for right after?
<Riddell> KDE's mateedit has an undo function :)
<pitti> jbailey: vim-obby :)
<ogra> pitti, i cant give that to my teachers :)
<pitti> heh, sure
<ogra> but apart from that ++
<pitti> ok, so what about avahi?
<pitti> split review and fast-pace, or does it have time until the full review?
<mvo> jbailey: I'm in
<ogra> jbailey, why reinvent the wheel, lets rather fix gobby if you find bugs
<Riddell> pitti: how can you split the review?
<pitti> Riddell: research security history and QA/bugs first, do source code audit later
* fabbione notices that we are way off-topic
<seb128> pitti: having avahi soon would be nice
<pitti> it's planning how to remove blocks for other people
<Riddell> pitti: the sooner it's in main the sooner I can guide the KDE developers into the stuff needed for dapper (like easy on/off)
<ogra> yes, Riddell is up, isnt he ? 
<pitti> ok
<seb128> pitti: that would allow to have some user comments on the apps using it
<pitti> good, I'll do it today
<Kamion> Riddell: go ahead
<Riddell> this week: simpleify-kde getting defaults all sorted, kubuntu-system tools fixing bugs, kubuntu-package-manager discussing ideas and testing/releasing new version of adept, playing with building kubuntu CDs not very successfully, kubuntu-docs packaging
<Riddell> next weeks: further bug fixing, try to get KDE working with current dapper (CUPS, xkb, gstreamer0.10)
<seb128> eh
<Kamion> Riddell: what's up with Kubuntu CD building?
<Riddell> Kamion: I'm not sure, I run it and it seems to do fine but nothing comes out at the end
<Kamion> Riddell: you mean locally, or on little?
<Riddell> Kamion: on little
<Kamion> Riddell: look in cdimage/log/kubuntu-*
<Kamion> it won't log much to stdout because my scripts are JUST THAT GOOD *ahem*
<Kamion> s/much/anything/
<Riddell> I had DEBUG on
<ogra> so you have a lot of debugging stuff in cdimage/log/kubuntu-* ;)
<Kamion> oh, they'll be in cdimage/scratch/kubuntu/debian-cd/ in that case
<ogra> or this :)
<Kamion> or somewhere under scratch, anyway
<Riddell> Kamion: so they don't go to the same place if DEBUG is on?
<Kamion> no, DEBUG turns off publishing to the www tree
<Riddell> aah, problem solved :)
<Kamion> seb128: ok, next
<seb128> dapper-desktop-plan: new version of the session dialog patch, will be uploaded this week
<seb128> video-playback: gst-plugins-base0.10/gst-plugins-good0.10/gst-plugins-ugly0.10 uploaded, I've played with rhythmbox/totem gst0.10 and will upload them tomorrow
<seb128> misc: dbus transition, some catchup of the bugs backlog
<seb128> .
<seb128> next: catching with bugzilla, GNOME 2.13.4, dapper-desktop-plan
<Kamion> sounds good. has the menus-revisited stuff pretty much settled down now, or still more feedback to deal with?
<seb128> not sure about the xsane menu item, the rest should be settled
<ogra> apart from "Ubuntu is under attack.." you mean ? 
<Kamion> I tend not to read threads that enormous
<ogra> its not worth it ... i read about 60% of it ...
<seb128> don't read the troll
<Kamion> seb128: ok, thanks
<Kamion> sivang: around?
<JaneW> I'll mail him
<Kamion> and that's everyone
<JaneW> mjg59: ready?
<JaneW> and BenC still needs to go...
<Kamion> ah, not quite everyone then
<BenC> * Work this week: Lots more kernel bugs
<BenC> * testing-server-hardware: not started
<BenC> * preventing-hardware-support-regressions: BLOCKED: Auto build infrastructure fairly complete (still working out some special cases), but still no dependable place to build.
<BenC> * ubuntu-server-kernel: Amd64 and i386 Done. PPC64 will be next kernel upload, and then this is complete.
<BenC> * Work for next two weeks: testing-server-hardware, continue bug triage for dapper.
<BenC> did I go too soon?
<Kamion> BenC: no, that's fine, thanks
* BenC was quick on the draw
<JaneW> heh
<Kamion> BenC: some seeding bits for server kernels still need to be sorted out; I'll have a look
<Kamion> insane amounts of anastacia noise right now
<BenC> ok
<mjg59> JaneW: Yup
<BenC> I'm not sure what is involved in making the kernel CD, so just let me know what you need from me
<BenC> s/kernel/server/
<JaneW> mjg59: shoot
<mjg59> Power-management-config: KDE has an existing solution, though it's less than ideal. gnome-power-manager is entirely usable, though it requires an extra dbus security policy that I've been discussing with upstream
<Kamion> I'm not even sure *I'm* sure, it's a complicated hack done at the last minute for breezy; hoping to sort it out more for dapper
<JaneW> mjg59: think you are on track to make dapper?
<mjg59> Once that's in place, shifting g-p-m to desktop sorts us
<ogra> mjg59, g-p-m is really cool now :) 
<mjg59> JaneW: Yes, the code that needs writing is very limited
<JaneW> mjg59: great, sounds good
<mjg59> Ideally KDE would change to use HAL as a backend rather than klaptopdaemon, but I'm less sure how practical that is
<JaneW> ok anything else?
<ogra> seb128, mjg59, what do we do with battstat-applet ? 
<santa_claus> happy christmas to everybody!
<ogra> will it stay around  ? 
<fabbione> ahah
<Kamion> I have one quick piece of other business
<JaneW> hohoho
<ogra> lol
<seb128> merry christmas!
<fabbione> have fun guys
<mvo> are we open for other topics now?
<ogra> merry christmas :)
<Kamion> SteveA would like to do the Bugzilla-to-Malone switch soon, and has been talking about this week
<Riddell> mjg59: I'll discuss it with people, I'm sure KDE would like to see that happen too but klaptopdaemon is hardly maintained so I doubt anyone will have time for it
<seb128> and happy new year :)
<Kamion> (though may be a bit late for that now, don't know the exact schedule)
<daniels> i assume all currently open bugs would be imported?
<Kamion> Yes, all open and closed bugs
<daniels> bonus
<fabbione> Kamion: i think SteveA has just been bitten by elmo's vac
<daniels> fabbione: well, obviously Karl doesn't get Christmas then
<pitti> what about the bug numbers? or redirections from bz?
<Kamion> I understand that most of the initial bug contact stuff is sorted
<Kamion> pitti: that I don't know, but I'm hoping they'll turn into cunning Malone watches or something
<mjg59> Riddell: Ok. Can we discuss this elsewhere? I can run over what's needed.
<Kamion> the reason I'm bringing this up here is to encourage people to get their concerns to SteveA and the Malone team sooner rather than later
<Kamion> https://wiki.launchpad.canonical.com/BugzillaImportProcess documents the process they intend to follow in doing the conversion
<Kamion> feedback to SteveA on that process is welcome
<mvo> probably not a good time to raise this, but I was wondering if irc is the right medium for the development status updates. this pasting of text feels like we could also do it (more conveniently) by mail (to my at least)
<Kamion> doing this during distro team downtime is probably a good thing, but if it has to be the new year, so be it
<daniels> mvo: despite the fact that it's 0148 and I'm falling asleep over here, I think it's a good idea.  being able to feed back to people is useful.
<Kamion> mvo: my personal feeling is that IRC's quite good at letting people have quick question/answer sessions relatively cheaply
<JaneW> mvo: I am happy to receive e-mails, but I am sure I would need to nag for them, and there would be no oppportunity for discussion
<jbailey> mvo: I feel more connected that I did to the team before, and I like being able to interact with folks live.
<fabbione> mvo: live > *
<Kamion> a lot of them are the sorts of things that people wouldn't bother to ask by e-mail
<jbailey> mvo: I find the wash of email a bit tedious as it is.
<JaneW> I agree
<mvo> ok, that's a pretty clear picture :)
<Kamion> and it does ensure that everyone actually reads most of what other people are doing, which I think shouldn't be underestimated
<Kamion> we have the activity reports, which I know I read, but I'm sure not everyone does
<Kamion> and they're rather ... verbose
<Kamion> Any other business?
<fabbione> nope
<Kamion> I'd pretty much like to echo what Mark said in his mail to allhands@canonical; great work in 2005, we get to feel proud that people love us, lots to do in 2006, and GET SOME REST OVER CHRISTMAS. :-)
<JaneW> heh
<fabbione> hsh
<ogra> Kamion, how should we, many of us will get new gadgets and hardware over christmas :)
* fabbione is heading to get his new console server
<JaneW> have a fabulous week next week, and enjoy the snow up north, we have a 30deg Christmas forecast here...
<ogra> hehe
<ogra> bah
<Kamion> ogra: that might count as rest depending on your mindset. :-)
<fabbione> JaneW: have fun
<fabbione> cya guys
<ogra> Kamion, *giggle*
<fabbione> thanks
<pitti> thanks to everybody
<daniels> i think getting rest now, before I pass out on the couch and end up with a stuffed back, is more important than over christmas.
<pitti> enjoy the holidays
<Kamion> right, thanks all, enjoy your holidays and see you in 2006!
<mvo> have fun everyone :)
* pitti hugs everyone
<pitti> seb128: give us a hug :)
* ogra hugs all as well 
<sivang> Kamion: now I am
* dholbach hugs everyone back :)
<Kamion> sivang: ok, go ahead quickly
<sivang> Kamion: started working on implementation. now coding some utility classes that are needed by HUB. that's all :)
<Kamion> short and sweet :)
* mvo has SUPERHUG powers
* sivang hugs all as well
<sivang> marry Xmas
<ogra> another hugday ? 
<sivang> btw, are all canonical people going to be on vacation until 1 Jan ?
<pitti> sivang: pretty much, yes
<mvo> not all, I need to work 2days 
<Kamion> sivang: Canonical will officially not be operating between 25 Dec and 1 Jan; we're all obliged to reserve enough holiday time to cover that period
<Kamion> I think a couple of people have negotiated special exceptions to that
<BenC> happy holidays everyone
<dholbach> yeah, to you all too
<ogra> enjoy :)
<sivang> Kamion: ah ok, just want to make sure someone stays with me here when I'm all Xmas'less in .il :-)
<Kamion> Hanukkah's about the same time as Christmas this year, isn't it?
<sivang> Kamion: you don't get vacation for it :-(
<sivang> only kids do, in schools
<sivang> kgardens etc..
<JaneW> UPDATE THE LP SPECS PLEASE!
* pitti already did
<Kamion> sivang: ah
<sivang> anywya, gotta go, Marry Xmas all again! may all your wishes for the new year come true.
* seb128 hugs pitti
<pitti> seb128: thanks :)
<seb128> np ;)
<JaneW> pitti: you rock :)
<pitti> santa_claus will give you new kernels now, with shiny wrapping
<pappan> sivang: ty same to you
<pitti> thanks to our fabulous Fabio
* sivang -> back
* topic unset by zunbeltz on #ubuntu-meeting
<zunbeltz> help
<zunbeltz> join
<zunbeltz> join #ubuntu-meeting
#ubuntu-meeting 2005-12-28
<robitaille> humm...where our topic went?
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:robitaille] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ | 30 Dec 22:00 UTC: DocTeam | 5 Jan 20:00 UTC: Dapper Development Status | 11 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu
<FLeiXiuS> Sorry for the constant hops.
#ubuntu-meeting 2005-12-31
<raphink> anyone has an idea when next CC will be ,
<raphink> ?
<Seveas> 2006 :)
<raphink> thanks Seveas :)
<raphink> hehe
<raphink> && merry xmas 
<raphink> :)
<raphink> (I kinda meant the date actually, but ok ;))
<Seveas> raphink, I hope tue. jan 3, but I don't know whether that'll be possible
<raphink> ok
<raphink> that's what I thought
<raphink> elmo: could you add me to katie's whitelist pls ?
<MarioMeyer> tamba :p
<tambaqui> MarioMeyer, :)
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-01-01
<wonka_> hello
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:robitaille] :  Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ | 29 Dec 23:00 UTC Artwork Team | 30 Dec 22:00 UTC: DocTeam | 5 Jan 20:00 UTC: Dapper Development Status | 11 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu
<Viper550> Any meeting going on?
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-12-25
<lotusleaf> kubuntu <3
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-12-26
<rpereira> Hi....
* Hobbsee waves
<rpereira> Do you know a tutorial to create a package for Ubuntu or adopt a package orphan?
<rpereira> Or it's better to ask this on #ubuntu-dev?
<Hobbsee> [15:08]  <ubotu> The packaging guide is at http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/packagingguide/C/index.html - Other developer resources are at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperResources
<Hobbsee> ask it in #ubuntu-motu
<rpereira> OK. Thanks Hobbsee....
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-12-27
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Current meeting: Edubuntu | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 28 Dec 08:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 02 Jan 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 03 Jan 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 03 Jan 22:00 UTC: Xubuntu | 04 Jan 16:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 28 Dec 08:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 02 Jan 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 03 Jan 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 03 Jan 22:00 UTC: Xubuntu | 04 Jan 16:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 09 Jan 15:00 UTC: LoCo Team
<dennda> hi. any idea when the next meeting will be? :)
<tsmithe> @schedule
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 28 Dec 08:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 02 Jan 20:00: Technical Board | 03 Jan 20:00: Edubuntu | 03 Jan 22:00: Xubuntu | 04 Jan 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 09 Jan 15:00: LoCo Team
<tsmithe> tomorrow at 0800 utc by the looks of things
<tsmithe> devel team
<dennda> (i was talking about a meeting of the community council. sorry ;))
<tsmithe> ooh
<tsmithe> well that's the schedule
<tsmithe> they're usually every two weeks
* tsmithe can't remember when the last was
<dennda> ok thank you anyway
<Adri2000> tsmithe: if it was really every two weeks, the last CC would have happened yesterday
<tsmithe> oh
<tsmithe> well; i was sure it was supposed to be that often
<Adri2000> yeah, "supposed" :)
<Seveas> dennda, the CC is on holiday
<Seveas> I tried to get a meeting scheduled next week, but 3/4 of the CC did not respond
<dennda> thank you Seveas
<dennda> (/me just wanted to know when the next meeting will be to prepare myself to make an attempt to join the ubuntu-member-group)
<Seveas> dennda, you can prepate anyway
<tsmithe> how much should i have done to be a member?
<tsmithe> i never know how people know when to apply
<Seveas> tsmithe, just write down your contributions and ask people (eg me) to look at it
<dennda> tsmithe, i read the logs of recent meetings
<dennda> that gave me a good impression
<tsmithe> ahh
<dennda> Seveas, yes and i am working on such a wiki-page but i want my "fanclub" to show up with me ;)
<Seveas> dennda, who's the fanclub?
<Seveas> forum or locoteam or motu or...?
<dennda> i am a member of the german ubuntu association and am well known to some people for that reason. e.g. juliux or smurf_
<Seveas> yeah, you need to get a few of the german loco members to show up, preferably existing ubuntu members
<Seveas> and make sure your contributions are well documented (links to forum post counts, launchpad karma, contributed documentation etc..)
<dennda> i know. therefore i mentioned juliux and smurf_. both of them already are ubuntu members. smurf_ is the leader of the german loco team
<dennda> some of my contributions are not "linkable", because you cannot link that you have been talking at a university to promote ubuntu or things like that ;)
<dennda> but others are well-documented
<dennda> (i am sorry for talking in a strange way but i sat in front of this machine all day watching irc-chats. my concentration is reaching point zero)
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-12-28
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Current meeting: Ubuntu Development Team | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 02 Jan 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 03 Jan 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 03 Jan 22:00 UTC: Xubuntu | 04 Jan 16:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 09 Jan 15:00 UTC: LoCo Team
<unix_infidel> Hmm, I guess no one is awake for the meeting :P
<Hobbsee> @schedule sydney
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Australia/Sydney: Current meeting: Ubuntu Development Team | 03 Jan 07:00: Technical Board | 04 Jan 07:00: Edubuntu | 04 Jan 09:00: Xubuntu | 05 Jan 03:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 10 Jan 02:00: LoCo Team
<Hobbsee> or they've forgotten
<Hobbsee> will probably start in 10 min
<rpereira> Hobbsee: Do you know if the meeting will happen?
<Hobbsee> rpereira: no, but i would assume not.  any particular reason why it has to?
<rpereira> Hobbsee: Nope. :-)
<Hobbsee> most people are on break
<rpereira> Hobbsee: You are right.
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 02 Jan 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 03 Jan 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 03 Jan 22:00 UTC: Xubuntu | 04 Jan 16:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 09 Jan 15:00 UTC: LoCo Team | 10 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu
<JanC> @meeting caracas
<tonyyarusso> @schedule caracas
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Caracas: 02 Jan 16:00: Technical Board | 03 Jan 16:00: Edubuntu | 03 Jan 18:00: Xubuntu | 04 Jan 12:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 09 Jan 11:00: LoCo Team | 10 Jan 08:00: Edubuntu
<tonyyarusso> :)
<JanC> right  :)
<effie_jayx> @schedule caracas
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Caracas: 02 Jan 16:00: Technical Board | 03 Jan 16:00: Edubuntu | 03 Jan 18:00: Xubuntu | 04 Jan 12:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 09 Jan 11:00: LoCo Team | 10 Jan 08:00: Edubuntu
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-12-30
<juliux> @schedule berlin
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Berlin: 02 Jan 21:00: Technical Board | 03 Jan 21:00: Edubuntu | 03 Jan 23:00: Xubuntu | 04 Jan 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 09 Jan 16:00: LoCo Team | 10 Jan 13:00: Edubuntu
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-12-27
<kraut> moin
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-12-28
<zarina> ciao
<zarina> ciao
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-12-29
<arualavi> @schedule andorra
<ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Andorra: 02 Jan 13:00: Edubuntu meeting | 09 Jan 21:00: Edubuntu meeting | 10 Jan 15:00: Desktop Team Development | 16 Jan 13:00: Edubuntu meeting | 17 Jan 13:00: Edubuntu meeting | 17 Jan 15:00: Desktop Team Development
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-12-30
<kraut> moin
<Ziroday> @schedule Singapore
<ubotu> Schedule for Asia/Singapore: 02 Jan 20:00: Edubuntu meeting | 10 Jan 04:00: Edubuntu meeting | 10 Jan 22:00: Desktop Team Development | 16 Jan 20:00: Edubuntu meeting | 17 Jan 20:00: Edubuntu meeting | 17 Jan 22:00: Desktop Team Development
<imbrandon> @now
<ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: December 30 2007, 19:32:14 - Next meeting: Edubuntu meeting in 2 days
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-12-23
<buggix> hi, I want to install vista additionally in a free partition. but it seems to be not possible. is it true?
 * persia waves
<beuno> persia!
<beuno> hi
<amachu2> elkbuntu: persia: Hi
<amachu2> lifeless: Hi
<persia> amachu2, Unless I am mistaken, I suspect our Australian counterparts will not be in attendance this evening, as it's very late there.
<persia> Unless some of our often absent companions arrive, I believe it's just you and I.
<amachu2> persia: Ok
<cody-somerville> What meeting is this?
<persia> cody-somerville, AsiaOceania RMB, although I suspect we won't reach quorum, as we need to increase our size in the western part of our region.
<amachu2> persia: fine. Long since we met too..
<persia> amachu2, Indeed.  Given the wide celebration of new years, I suggest we next look at 9:00 on the 6th.
<amachu2> persia: that Ok for me
<amachu2> and any thoughts you have on increasing the Board strength?
<persia> I've been looking at long-standing members in the region, but don't have any strong nominations yet: hard to judge the combination of activity and location well.
<persia> You?
<amachu2> no not yet..
<persia> The next couple weeks should be quiet, as so many of us are in Europe or the Americas, where the holidays are nearly started.  Perhaps we can use that gap to identify some people?
<amachu2> we should..
<persia> As much as I like them, I think we don't want more Australians, given the timezones.
<amachu2> there are plenty I feel too :-)
<amachu2> yourself, me, elky, lifeless and muso five of us have shown continuity
<amachu2> belutz, zakame we need to check again. I hope belutz can make it. We need to identify two now
<amachu2> if zakame isn't going to make it, it is going to be three
<persia> Then let's each try to send a nomination for consideration by the team before the new year.  We can select two or three from that set for submission to the CC.
<amachu2> we should have more nominations than the required no.. atleast +1..
<amachu2> yes..
<persia> Right.  There are 5-7 of us.  With luck, we can get 3-5 internal nominations in the next week.  From that, we can select submissions to the CC.
<amachu2> that should be fine.
<persia> OK.  Any other business?  Our candidate doesn't appear to be present.
<amachu2> persia: nope
<persia> OK.  I have one: do we want a procedure to roll over the post of secretary?  (or are you happy holding that role indefinitely)
<amachu2> lets wind up for now.. :-)
<amachu2> i thought I propose that after six months
<persia> That works.  Let's do it then, with our expanded numbers.
<amachu2> how long I have been holding the reponsibilty
<amachu2> from June
<amachu2> its time for that too..
<persia> Right, so in six months means a one-year term, which doesn't seem bad.
<persia> Oh, you want only a six-month term?  I thought you meant six more months.
<amachu2> well if there are people willing to take up responsibility, I can hand over..
<amachu2> I am fine though
<persia> heh.
<persia> If you're fine, let's let it go another six months, just so we can get the expanded team and the moving schedule stable.
<amachu2> persia: that should be fine
<persia> OK Great.  IN that case, have a good new years.
<amachu2> wish you the same :-)
<amachu2> bye bye
<amachu2> elkbuntu: lifeless: if you people wake, wishing you both too :-)
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Server Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 23 Dec 17:00: Kernel Team | 24 Dec 16:00: Foundation Team | 24 Dec 17:00: QA Team | 25 Dec 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 25 Dec 13:00: Desktop Team
<nealmcb> is there a server team meeting today?
<sommer> I thought there was, but I'm not sure we realized how close to christmas it was last week
<sgbirch> According to the UbuntuWeekly newsletter there was one scheduled. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter/Issue122
<nealmcb> zul chaired the meeting last week
<persia> Are there enough people here to have the meeting?
<nealmcb> we decided to have a meeting again this time.  I don't remember any minutes or announcement of the meeting
<sommer> I'm thinking everyone's already on x-mas break
<sommer> but that's just my though :)
<sommer> err thought
<nealmcb> yup - and I've got a guest, and something else just came up
<persia> So perhaps this meeting is just waived then, and the next is the 6th?
<nealmcb> Seems like it to me.  Enjoy the holidays!
<sommer> have a good one nealmcb
<nealmcb> sommer: and to you!
<brainac0cult> hi my name is brainac0cult
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Kernel Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 24 Dec 16:00: Foundation Team | 24 Dec 17:00: QA Team | 25 Dec 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 25 Dec 13:00: Desktop Team
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Kernel Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 24 Dec 16:00: Foundation Team | 24 Dec 17:00: QA Team | 25 Dec 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 25 Dec 13:00: Desktop Team | 25 Dec 14:00: Ubuntu Java
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 24 Dec 16:00: Foundation Team | 24 Dec 17:00: QA Team | 25 Dec 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 25 Dec 13:00: Desktop Team | 25 Dec 14:00: Ubuntu Java | 30 Dec 16:00: Server Team
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 24 Dec 16:00: Foundation Team | 24 Dec 17:00: QA Team | 25 Dec 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 25 Dec 14:00: Ubuntu Java | 30 Dec 16:00: Server Team | 30 Dec 17:00: Kernel Team
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-12-24
<MistDragn> looks like ubuntu 9.04 has a few of unique exploits on bugtraq already
<MistDragn> guess i'll have to wait for the next version before upgrading my gigabit mainframe
<MistDragn> they say ubuntu means humanity, i wonder if it was derived from the game where ancients threw human heads at each other
<MistDragn> the chaldeans believed ubuntu was used to code the crystal skulls used by the omecs
<MistDragn> but they'll only react with a version of ubuntu that has no known exploits
<MistDragn> because it is pure
<MistDragn> like Gary here.
<MistDragn> have you seen team america?
<MistDragn> i bet that's hard for you to watch
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Foundation Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 24 Dec 17:00: QA Team | 25 Dec 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 25 Dec 14:00: Ubuntu Java | 30 Dec 16:00: Server Team | 30 Dec 17:00: Kernel Team
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: QA Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 25 Dec 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 25 Dec 14:00: Ubuntu Java | 30 Dec 16:00: Server Team | 30 Dec 17:00: Kernel Team
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: QA Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 25 Dec 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 25 Dec 14:00: Ubuntu Java | 30 Dec 16:00: Server Team | 30 Dec 17:00: Kernel Team | 31 Dec 16:00: Foundation Team
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 25 Dec 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 25 Dec 14:00: Ubuntu Java | 30 Dec 16:00: Server Team | 30 Dec 17:00: Kernel Team | 31 Dec 16:00: Foundation Team | 31 Dec 17:00: QA Team
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-12-22
<humphreybc> hey jono, how's it going?
<jono> hey humphreybc :)
<jono> all good thanks, you?
<humphreybc> not bad not bad, busy day trying to get a new LAMP server up and running with ubuntu server and AjaXplorer
<humphreybc> i'm having some problems with PHP file uploading, but that's for another day :P
<humphreybc> what's the weather like in the UK? snowing?
<hfz> anybody???
<humphreybc> they're getting there :)
 * persia peers about
<humphreybc> who's supposed to be chairing the meeting?
<persia> humphreybc: amachu is our traditional chair
<humphreybc> Oo he's running a tad late :P
<persia> Seems that way.
<humphreybc> are you in the board?
<persia> I am.
<humphreybc> on* the board
<humphreybc> cool cool
<humphreybc> persia: do you know why the meeting was changed from the 14th?
<elky> oh, it's that day of the month.
<persia> Changed from the 14th?  No.
<persia> humphreybc: You may be thinking of another meeting.  This one is at 10:00 UTC the second and fourth tuesdays of each month.
<humphreybc> The Oceania membership board, right?
<persia> humphreybc: Yep.
<humphreybc> I'm fairly certain it was scheduled for the 14th but then changed, but doesn't matter
<persia> Sorry if that happened: the 14th was definitely a mistake.
<humphreybc> gotcha
<humphreybc> I'm Benjamin by the way
<persia> Yep.  You're our first candidate up today.
<humphreybc> (I prefer people to use my real name, it's more personal :) )
<persia> You might want to consider changing your nick :)
<elky> persia, did you ping lifeless?
<persia> elky: No, I was giving amachu 10 minutes.
<humphreybc> hmm maybe at some point I will consider it. humphreybc is just my last name + initials, I use it for most stuff.
<persia> lifeless: freeflying TheMuso Belutz zakame : who's here?
<lifeless> vageuly
<elky> the other four are not even in the channel
<hfz> Hi!
<persia> That would make three.  We need one more.
<hfz> I'm Muhammad Hafiz from Malaysia
<hfz> sorry for the late appearance
<humphreybc> freeflying is here
<hfz> since i'm waiting someone to come
<humphreybc> (in the channel)
 * hfz says ho to humphreybc
<elky> oh so he is, i must have typoed bfore when i checked
<hfz>  =D
<humphreybc> hey mate, how's it going
<hfz> i'm fine
<hfz> thank you =D
<hfz> how's yr day?
<humphreybc> elky: whether he is afk or not, is yet to be determined :P
<humphreybc> hfz: not bad, spent most of it setting up a LAMP server with ajaxplorer, and sorting stuff out for christmas
<elky> he's been idle 50 minute
<hfz> ok
 * hfz says hi to elky =D
<humphreybc> elky: hmm, well i suppose that means he's not around...
<lifeless> amachu did send mail
<elky> or he's got distracted
<hfz> may i know who's the meeting chairman for today?
<elky> hfz, hi :)
<lifeless> I wager he's having internet fail
<hfz> just want to get know =D
<humphreybc> so you need four?
<persia> hfz: Not determined yet.
<lifeless> popey: around?
<persia> humphreybc: Yes, but we're only three now.
<popey> o/
 * hfz says hello to persia =D
<persia> popey: Have time to help us?
<lifeless> popey: care to join asia for an evening ?
<popey> sure
<hfz> persia : ok, i'm understand =D
<persia> OK.  Let's call ourselves quorate then.  Sitting board members for this meeting are elky, lifeless, popey, and persia
<popey> anyone got the url handy?
<persia> #startmeeting
<MootBot> persia, There is already a meeting in progress.
<lifeless> persia: please SMS me at like 2 past if I'm not here :) no need to make folk wait.
<persia> Bah.
<lifeless> persia: I do have it in my calendarish
<lifeless> #endmeeting
<persia> lifeless: You weren't the only one :)
<persia> Agenda at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/AsiaOceania
<lifeless> persia: I know, I'm not taking responsibility :)
<humphreybc> be back in two secs, just nipping to the loo
<lifeless> persia: just saying:)
<hfz> I'm here already
 * popey prefers the term "bio break" :)
<persia> OK.  Let's skip humphreybc for now, and get back later :)
<hfz> be back in five minutes, going to the loo for a while =D
<persia> hfz: You're up.  Please introduce yourself.
<humphreybc> right i'm back
<persia> Right.  I thought that was a joke.  Moving on.
<humphreybc> sorry about that
<persia> nick: You're up.
<persia> Please introduce yourself.
<humphreybc> O.o
<persia> OK.  Back to the top.
<humphreybc> haha righto, i'll introduce myself.
<persia> humphreybc: Your turn again.  Please introduce yourself.
<humphreybc> Hi everyone, my name is Benjamin Humphrey. I'm a 19 year old Software Engineering student from New Zealand, currently studying in Dunedin. I've been using Ubuntu for about a year, and mainly contribute to documentation and the community.
<humphreybc> In the future i'd like to shift to programming and code writing, as my skills develop in that area from my degree.
<humphreybc> But for now, I'm mainly focusing on my blog, and an Ubuntu manual that i'm writing (preview is attached on my wiki page)
<humphreybc> which is http:wiki.ubuntu.com/humphreybc
<humphreybc> I also do a lot of testing of alpha and beta releases, submit and comment on bugs, and I have submitted the odd fix too.
<hfz> hi
<humphreybc> I'm a member of the Ubuntu NZ LoCo team, and of the New Zealand Open Source Society (my linux feed is aggregated there)
<hfz> I'm back!
<hfz> sorry for the delays =D
<lifeless> hfz: we'll be with you soon; for now please let us interview humphreybc
<hfz> ok
<humphreybc> And next year I'm planning on running some activities in the Dunedin area to promote Ubuntu.
<hfz> sure
<humphreybc> So yeah, that's pretty much me. I'm interested in Ubuntu for a number of reasons, and interested in contributing because I want to give back to the community what it has so generously given me for free. Seeing as Software development and IT is my major at university, it also makes sense for me to get involved.
<humphreybc> What else would you like to know?
<persia> humphreybc: Well, we're currently reviewing, but did you happen to bring anyone with you today to cheer for your application?
<humphreybc> Unfortunately, no. The couple of people who would want to come are in the wrong timezone
<humphreybc> I work with Joey from omgubuntu.co.uk on a few things, I've been meaning to get a testimonial from him - but he's a pretty busy guy
<lifeless> humphreybc: you seem to be very active, but only for a short time ?
<popey> I'm seeing lots of recent blogging, but little evidence of direct contribution to Ubuntu itself.
<humphreybc> Yes, I have only been using Ubuntu for a year or so. The blog is pretty new, only started that recently.
<lifeless> humphreybc: we look for 'significant and sustained' contribution.
<popey> Personally I prefer to see contributions to the documentation team, wiki and so on rather than external blogs and documents.
<lifeless> popey: me too
<elky> indeed
<lifeless> humphreybc: for instance, have you considered making your ebook part of the official docs ?
<popey> I do like the idea of a beginner "manual" but it could be done in collaboration with the docteam
<humphreybc> Mmm I understand that. I've written some guides for the Video documentation wiki, but to be honest, not a huge heap of stuff "officially"
<elky> popey, or even beginners team
<persia> The work with the testing and QA teams is also promising, but I'd like to see either documentation of the extent, or failing that, some commentary from others working in that area.
<popey> that too elky
<humphreybc> When I have finished the book it will become official, that's my goal
<lifeless> humphreybc: it doesn't need to be 'official' as such, just part-of-the-community-resources.
<popey> humphreybc: if you maintained it in bzr/wiki you might find others would contribute
<popey> s/would/could
<humphreybc> Right. I am collaborating with a couple of other members, but it's reasonably fresh as well. It was only due to the success of the blog that I decided to write a manual
<humphreybc> popey: I'll do that in a couple of months once I have written the full draft.
<lifeless> though I think we should recognise activities that are 'adjacent' to Ubuntu.
<popey> sure lifeless, i "recognise" but also "prefer" :)
<persia> I'm certainly happy to recognise adjacent activities, so long as there is also integration with direct activities.
<humphreybc> I've addressed the fact that the direct contributions to Ubuntu aren't significant comparative to many
<humphreybc> But that will change next year when I take some more coding papers
<lifeless> anyhow, my vote is against, for now: This is a good beginning, but needs to be significantly more sustained. I think if you keep the same level of activity up the forums posts / ideastorm/wiki will be plenty in due course.
<humphreybc> lifeless: fair enough
<persia> I'm also against.  I think the work is great, but I'd like to see more direct contribution, and more support from other members of the community.
<humphreybc> What would you consider a significant amount of time, and examples of direct contribution? I've never had the definition of direct contribution explained to me, as opposed to external contribution.
<lifeless> humphreybc: there are other Ubuntu Members in Dunedin; you may find you're not as alone there as your writings seem to imply ;)
<lifeless> ajmitch: ^ :P
<humphreybc> I'll have to track them down, thanks.
<elky> +0 from me for similar reasons. you have a good start but you lack the sustained bit we're looking for.
<persia> humphreybc: For myself, I consider it "direct contribution" when it's part of a team that exists within Ubuntu, and external contribution when it's personal blogs, other projects, etc.
<humphreybc> It will be easier next year when I have an internet connection in my flat... this past year I was walking to the library each time I needed access :P
<humphreybc> So when do you think I should try again? Presuming I keep up this level of activity.
<lifeless> humphreybc: say a couple of semesters. There isn't a hard limit. We rarely ask someone who has been contributing in a sustained manner for a year to go away and come back, and less than a few months are rarely accepted
<popey> I agree +0
<humphreybc> Righto, so later next year. As I said, next year the "direct" contribution will increase significantly
<elky> we look forward to seeing that :)
<lifeless> My definition of direct contributions are things that improve Ubuntu itself.
<humphreybc> And if I get some friends from Dunedin/Ubuntu NZ they should be able to vouch for me with a bit of luck :)
<persia> humphreybc: Feel free to contact any of us personally if you want to check if you've reached that point (we can't say for sure, but we can review).  You may also want to ask other Ubuntu members in the various teams you work with.
<lifeless> Ubuntu & the Ubuntu community.
<persia> OK.  Anyone have anything else for humphreybc ?
<humphreybc> How would I go about contacting one of the board?
<humphreybc> Is there a list of members on the board somewhere?
<lifeless> I don't think team vs solo is that important in terms of direct/indirect; but team things with official teams are pretty much guaranteed to be direct.
<persia> On our launchpad page.
<popey> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-membership-board-asia-oceania
<humphreybc> Gotcha
<persia> OK.  Next up: hfz.  Please introduce yourself.
<popey> keep up the good work humphreybc
<hfz> Hi!
<hfz> I'm Muhammad Hafiz, as introduced in Ubuntu WiKi
<amachu> hi
<elky> hey amachu
<hfz> I'm 15 years old from Malaysia, and just began in the middle of this year to using Ubuntu
<hfz> And I've contributed my time for the translation doc for the current release of Ubuntu 9.10
<nick> hi folks, did i miss anything?
<hfz> I'm also a member of Ubuntu Malaysia Local Community and Open Source Developers Club Malaysia
<hfz> I've attached the links in my WiKi Page
<amachu> sorry held up with official meeting..
<lifeless> nick: we'll be with you soon; for now please let us interview hfz
<persia> nick: You were up, but we passed on.  We'll get back to you in a while.
<lifeless> amachu: its ok, we grabbed popey
<amachu> lifeless: I understood..
<hfz> Plus, I'm currently becoming the website moderator of YouthSays Malaysia, under company named YouthAsia
<lifeless> amachu: we've just started with hfz, you've seen all the discussion, and I think you're welcome to join in :P
<hfz> Anymore you want to know about me?
<hfz> :)
<lifeless> hfz: what do you consider your most significant contribution to Ubuntu?
<amachu> lifeless: yep
<hfz> The language translation from English to Bahasa Malaysia for Ubuntu release, 9.10 codenamed Karmic Koala
<hfz> And also answering some bugs in Launchpad
<hfz> I'm also currently learning Ruby on Rails
<hfz> Any questions for me?
<hfz> :)
<persia> hfz: You don't have any testimonials on your wiki page.  Did you bring anyone to support your application?
<hfz> Unfortunately no, since the others are busy....
<popey> I'm seeing a small number of translations recently, but nothing that would make me think 'sustained' contribution I'm afraid.
<amachu> hfz: are there people here from your LoCo here ?
<lifeless> popey: the page truncates
<lifeless> popey: the ones you see are after9.10 came out; it could be anything
<lifeless> So, I'm +0 here as well: most of the things on your wiki page are not anything to do with Ubuntu, while they are fine things to do.
<elky> yep +0. i'd like to see more strictly ubuntu contributions. the translations are a nice start
<hfz> Unfortunately no
<lifeless> my advice is to keep on translating
<persia> I'm also +0 on this.  While translations alone are certainly sufficient for me, I'm having a hard time judging the volume, and would like to see some support from at least other translators (or other folk, for other activities).
<lifeless> get into bugs
<hfz> I hope they can come
<popey> I agree +0
<hfz> Oh... OK =)
<persia> amachu: ?
<popey> It's great to see new young people using and getting involved in Ubuntu. I'd like to see more contributions hfz
<hfz> I understand that
<amachu> persia: +0
<hfz> I try my best to upgrade myself, since I'm also currently promoting Ubuntu at my school
<amachu> would like to see more sustained efforts & testimonials
<hfz> OK
<popey> hfz: make sure you fully document everything you do for Ubuntu :)
<persia> hfz: As described above, you may want to just spend more time doing the things you are doing, or do more things.  I'd also encourage you to make sure there are good links to demonstrate and document the stuff you've done.
<hfz> Oh, Nice advise =D
<persia> Anyone have anything else for hfz?
<amachu> persia: no
<persia> OK.  Moving on then.
<persia> Next up: nick.  Please introduce yourself.
<hfz> OK.
<hfz> Thanks
<hfz> Nice to meet you guys =D
<nick> Hi everyone. First of all sorry about missing my turn. I fall asleep due to jet lag. My wiki page is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BoranBasar and you can also find information about me on https://launchpad.net/~boranbasar
<elky> nick, tell us about your contributions to ubuntu please
<nick> But mainly my contribution is helping Turkish users on #ubuntu-tr and also Turkish forum web pages on http://forum.ubuntu-tr.org. Most of them don't know english very well and they also prefer to have 1-on-1 support rather than using forum web-pages.
<persia> nick: You seem to be primarily active in support, which I find hard to judge.  Do you have any links that would demonstrate the volume of your work?
<nick> Unfortunately no as mostly my support is in Turkish and only on the channel based. I've started using Launchpad and others since I moved down the Australia.
<persia> nick: You also mention the turkish forum.  What's your handle there?
<amachu> nick: would like to see more in wiki with  links & references
<nick> I'm helping the users with their questions and also creating them tutorials, such as how to install an Apache server or creating an Django enviroment on ubuntu.
<nick> And also explaining them why using Ubuntu is important, not just because of it's free.
<nick> Lastly I distribute Ubuntu CD's on my own, for the users in Turkey which has limited internet access(quota) that can't download Ubuntu online by themselves
<elky> that's the sort of thing that should be on your wiki page.
<humphreybc> night night fellas, i'm out
<nick> good night humphreybc
<persia> nick: Have you brought anyone to the meeting to support your application?
<nick> persia: No, I haven't since I don't know any english speakers, which is the main reason I've been helping them in Turkish. If they could, they would be here trying to support me.
<amachu> nick: good to hear these.. would have been great if all of what you say is also reflected in wiki with appropriate references
<elky> nick, i think we'd be able to see the enthusiasm in their comments if they were here cheering your name
<lifeless> also, you can bring turkish speakers to support you
<lifeless> if you or someone you know can translate
<elky> seeing stuff like "< person> nick++!!! :D" speaks plenty to us :)
<persia> I don't feel I have enough information to make a positive statement towards membership.  I'd like to see a more comprehensive wiki page, including more detail about activities, links to activity in the turkish forum, and some testimonials (in Turkish is acceptable, although English is preferred).
<_paco_> hello mes amis de la chanson
<popey> I too would like to see a more comprehensive wiki page with links to contributions.
<freeflying> nick: you mention Turkish FOSS software on your wiki page, so whats that
<nick> persia: _paco_ is one of the operators of #ubuntu-tr. He is here to support me
<_paco_>  I'm one of the operators on #ubuntu-tr. He's been helping people since 2005 on #ubuntu-tr
<amachu> nick: would wish you all the best, but I would give -1 this time around
<lifeless> _paco_: how active there is nick ?
<_paco_> a lot I would say
<_paco_> most of our ops ain't on the chan.
<_paco_> I don't know why. I think they are too busy with the forum
<lifeless> so, I think I'm +1 all told
<lifeless> though its very hard to assess
<_paco_> he helps answering newcomers questions, encouareging  them to use Ubuntu and help them to solve bugs they experience
<elky> _paco_, nick has been consistent in his support giving since 2005?
<_paco_> yes
<elky> what about forums. has he been active there too since 2005?
<elky> we dont even know what his account name there is
<persia> nick: Could you please tell us your account name on http://forum.ubuntu-tr.org/ ?
<nick> persia: wiper
<persia> Thanks.
<nick> persia: http://forum.ubuntu-tr.org/index.php/topic,3777.0.html you could see the topic lists that I created
<nick> These are not all my topics, but it's created for easy access for new users. They include topics such as 'What is Ubuntu?, How you can install an application on Ubuntu, How you can get support?" etc.
<elky> 7107 posts?
<persia> I'm feeling more confident, and sufficiently soto vote in favour of membership.  I do encourage you to add more links to your wiki page, as there appears to be a lot of good dialog with users in the forums (and references to your IRC support).
<elky> yep +1 from me now too
<persia> User #2 on the turkish forum as well :)
<elky> wow
<elky> nick, these are things you should write on your wiki page! :)
<persia> Definitely !  This would have been a fast approval with the documentation.
<elky> i'd like to see you read the log of this meeting and fix that page
<lifeless> popey: amachu: care to revote?
<nick> elky: you'll be sure that I will
<persia> freeflying: You also joined the discussion.  Do you have a vote?
<amachu> lifeless: yes, I am looking at forum
<amachu> just a line at wiki made life tough for nick today
<freeflying> persia: I'd like -1
 * popey is still +0
<persia> OK.
<amachu> i would elevate my vote to +0
<amachu> at this time
<lifeless> freeflying: popey: amachu: any advice for nick
<persia> nick: I'd recommend fixing up your wiki page, and coming back to us once it's ready.  Feel free to contact any of the board members for a review to make sure it's in shape.
<popey> 11:03:12 < popey> I too would like to see a more comprehensive wiki page with links to contributions.
<popey> :)
<amachu> lifeless: yes,
<lifeless> popey: if its simply documentation, I think we should look beyond that :P
<amachu> nick: update the wiki giving the links etc.,
<freeflying> nick: we can't know too much from your wiki page, hope you can get someone here to support you next time
<lifeless> freeflying: nick has _paco_ here supporting him
<amachu> i do not see any reason not to give a +1 other than that..
<nick> freeflying: I did. I asked one of the operators of #ubuntu-tr to come here to supportme
<popey> lifeless: hmm
<lifeless> so, its meta, but I really don't think a lack of docs should be a reason not to approve someone, *if* we've figured out the contributions anyway.
<amachu> persia: what did you vote?
<persia> m
<amachu> just lost that
<persia> amachu: In favour.
<amachu> Oh ok..
<popey> I'm happy to withdraw my vote given you're quorate without me
<lifeless> popey: at +0 you are neutral anyhow :)
<popey> well, indeed
<persia> popey: No worries.  Although we've reached quorum, your vote isn't blocking.
<amachu> we are six here today, with popey
<lifeless> freeflying: you're at -1, can you please give some suggestions to nick, for things to improve on?
<amachu> one negative voting & three +1 can be considered favourable
<lifeless> freeflying: he has someone here supporting him
<freeflying> but _paco_ can only support his activity in irc, I have too many this kind users around
<persia> amachu: We've historically required a sufficiency of positive votes, with neutral votes counting essentially against, and only indicating the relative strength of feeling.
<lifeless> freeflying: what do you mean?
<amachu> persia: true
<elky> historically we also dont argue to change each other's minds
<amachu> I would like to see the wiki updated positively before giving +1
<lifeless> amachu: what would the wiki update /do/ though?
<persia> OK.  Let'S call this done.
<freeflying> lifeless: well, I mean nick need doc more on his wiki, but not only his activity in irc
<lifeless> elky: actually we've argued since the first meeting
<lifeless> elky: I'm happy to dig up logs ;P
 * persia supports lifeless's memory, but doesn't consider that a positive thing
<amachu> lifeless: we send the membership mail to Ubuntu News Team & so also our list giving reference to the candiadate's wiki..
<lifeless> amachu: good point
<lifeless> persia: I think discussion to seek consensus (which is what I mean) is healthy.
<amachu> a less informative wiki, won't appear good in minds of people going through it..
<persia> lifeless: Put that way, I can't argue :)
<elky> lifeless, offered counter points sure. not argued continually on it
<persia> OK.  Anyway, I'm calling this done.
<persia> nick: Thanks a lot for (finally) applying, and at least I'll hope to see you back soon.
<persia> Anyone have anything else to bring before the board?
<elky> nominations i sent to the list
<amachu> persia: not here, but I remind myself to reply on nominations to list
<nick> thanks a lot for the recommendations and your help
<amachu> nick: hoping to see you soon..
<_paco_> w0rd
<freeflying> nick: hope to see you back soon
<persia> OK.  Let's say that everyone who didn't already reply to elky's nominations should do so.
<amachu> persia: yes
<persia> Anything else?
<amachu> amachu: not from me
<amachu> elky: freeflying: lifeless: anything else?
<amachu> popey: ?
<freeflying> amachu: no
<popey> Well..
<popey> Did nick highlight Wiki pages he was responsible for?
<lifeless> amachu: I don't have any new business, no. I think we're getting a bit too procedural/nitpicky. Which is a shame.
<popey> I was rummaging round the forums and found plenty of forum posts
<amachu> lifeless: didn't get you?
<elky> he's still disagreeing with your penchant for a full wiki i suspect
<persia> Or for asking each member to formally state they have nothing to raise, which I also find unnecessary.
<lifeless> both in fact
<lifeless> anyhow, its late; persia has called it, meeting is over;)
<elky> yep
<persia> Right.  In the interests of not having the member with the opinion against hardened procedure raise a meta-discussion point about procedure, let's skip that.
<lifeless> persia: :)
<amachu> elky: oh ok.
<persia> nick: As popey noted, please consider adding links to all your wiki work to your personal wiki page as well, as this would add support.
<persia> OK.  Meeting Adjourned.
<amachu> thank you all.
<nick> thanks
 * persia gives the gavel to amachu for safekeeping until 12th Jaunary
<NCommander> #startmeeting
<MootBot> NCommander, There is already a meeting in progress.
<persia> Eventually whoever started that meeting will end it :/
<persia> #endmeeting
<NCommander> #startmeeting
<MootBot> NCommander, There is already a meeting in progress.
 * NCommander grumbles
<persia> In case it was you, try ending :)
<NCommander> #endmeeting
<NCommander> Nope
<NCommander> persia, maybe we should move to #ubuntu-mobile?
<persia> No MootBot there.  Just go here.
<GrueMaster> persia, it was your last meeting.
<elky> persia, i think that's ours from earlier
<persia> GrueMaster: It wasn't.  It's been at least four or five days.
<NCommander> persia, MootBot is there
<NCommander> Has been for a long time
 * NCommander has done meetings in that channel before
<popey> elky: we didnt use i earlier
<elky> popey, aha. my mistake. i saw people trying and assumed we did
<persia> NCommander: Yeah, but it doesn't hit the right logs.  Just start :)
 * elky goes to grep logs for the culprit
 * persia will go hunt down the culprit
 * persia leaves it to elky
<elky> <MootBot> Meeting started at 11:02. The chair is bjf. <-- is the latest successful i see in backscroll, but my backscroll has gaps
<elky> i'll confirm with my proxy logs :)
<bjf> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 07:05.
<elky> win
<NCommander> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 07:05. The chair is NCommander.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<persia> heh :)
<NCommander> :-)
<GrueMaster> sneaky
<cooloney> cook
<cooloney> cool
<elky> now, someone tell bjf he has a meeting log to process.
<cooloney> elky: i will do that. heh :)
<NCommander> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2009/20091222
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2009/20091222
<NCommander> [link] http://piware.de/workitems/mobile/lucid-alpha2/report.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://piware.de/workitems/mobile/lucid-alpha2/report.html
<NCommander> [link] http://piware.de/workitems/mobile/lucid/report.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://piware.de/workitems/mobile/lucid/report.html
<NCommander> who's here?
<persia> Lots of people.  Just get on with the agenda :)
<NCommander> [topic] Action Item Review
<MootBot> New Topic:  Action Item Review
<NCommander> [topic] asac to approve outstanding liquid specs
<MootBot> New Topic:  asac to approve outstanding liquid specs
<persia> They show up on lucid work items tracker, so I presume that's done.
<NCommander> [topic] persia to watch the builds and make sure they happen and are testable
<MootBot> New Topic:  persia to watch the builds and make sure they happen and are testable
<persia> They've been working just fine most of the week.  Today was a failure, but it's transient (and affects all ports).  I'll be digging into it more, and we should be in good shape for tomorrow.
<NCommander> [topic] GrueMaster to post LSB test failures for investigation
<MootBot> New Topic:  GrueMaster to post LSB test failures for investigation
<GrueMaster> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Mobile/ArmLSB
<GrueMaster> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Mobile/ArmLSB
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Mobile/ArmLSB
<GrueMaster> This link is where I will be posting test results as they happen.  Currently, I have test results for OLVER tests on karmic.
<NCommander> GrueMaster, are these number of failures expected?
<GrueMaster> I have asked members of the LSB community to review the results, but haven't had a response yet.
<GrueMaster> Some of them, yes.
<GrueMaster> The test suite automatically checks the LSB database against known failures.
<NCommander> cool
<NCommander> [topic] asac to figure out why dove still uses a 2.6.31 kernel
<MootBot> New Topic:  asac to figure out why dove still uses a 2.6.31 kernel
<persia> At least the upload of 2.6.31-704.4 on Thursday indicates this is either not done or not reported.
<NCommander> At the risk of being dense
<persia> Shall we carry over (I have a suspicion that asac isn't responding to highlights)
<GrueMaster> iirc, didn't davidm say something about fsl not moving to .32?
<NCommander> I thought we were on a 31 kernel because thats what was provided?
<persia> GrueMaster: linux-mvl-dove vs linux-fsl-imx51
<cooloney> GrueMaster: yeah, fsl won't move to .32 in lucid cycle, i think
<persia> cooloney: Do you have updated information about -mvl-dove ?
<cooloney> and for dove, eric might still don't have .32 patches from marvell
<cooloney> but i believe marvell will move to .32, i will ask eric to talk with marvell guys
<persia> cooloney: Would you be up for taking ownership of the action?
<cooloney> persia: no problem,
<cooloney> heh
<persia> NCommander: ^^
<NCommander> bah
<NCommander> [topic] dyfet to prepare a test kernel build with the patch in bug 494831
<MootBot> New Topic:  dyfet to prepare a test kernel build with the patch in bug 494831
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 494831 in linux-mvl-dove "Alignment trap/Unhandled fault errors on boot" [Undecided,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/494831
<NCommander> there we go
<persia> Erm, what about cooloney's [ACTION] ?
<NCommander> [actopm] cooloney to ask ericm about 2.6.32 patches for marvell dove
<NCommander> [actiom] cooloney to ask ericm about 2.6.32 patches for marvell dove
<NCommander> ...
<NCommander> [action] cooloney to ask ericm about 2.6.32 patches for marvell dove
<MootBot> ACTION received:  cooloney to ask ericm about 2.6.32 patches for marvell dove
<cooloney> heh, i got 3 actions, OMG
 * NCommander buries his head
<persia> Nah.  One action.  The others were actopms and actioms : not as critical to handle :)
<NCommander> As for dyfet's action, this patch was uploaded last week, which seems to fix lucid images nicely
<NCommander> there's an SRU in progress to karmic
<persia> Accepted 20 hours ago, so it's in karmic-proposed, and needs testing.
<persia> Any volunteers to test?
 * NCommander will if he reinstalls to karmic, which might happen later today
 * NCommander waves to ericm 
<persia> Then action yourself :)
 * ericm waves back to NCommander
<cooloney> ok, i don't need any action
<cooloney> ericm: a quick question,
<ericm> cooloney, sure
<cooloney> ericm: why is dove still using .31?
<cooloney> do you know when it will move .32?
<ericm> looks marvell is still working on that
<NCommander> [action] NCommander to test karmic SRU kernel
<MootBot> ACTION received:  NCommander to test karmic SRU kernel
<ericm> NCommander, ogra, any news from Marvell on the next drop?
<cooloney> ericm: ok,
<NCommander> ericm, sorry, haven't heard anything
<NCommander> ericm, I can ask Marvell however, I have to email them on another issue
<ericm> NCommander, that will be helpful
<NCommander> [action] NCommander to email Marvell about the date of the next expected kernel drop
<MootBot> ACTION received:  NCommander to email Marvell about the date of the next expected kernel drop
<NCommander> [topic] asac, ogra, persia to make sure .32 backporting for imx51 kernels is documented somewhere
<MootBot> New Topic:  asac, ogra, persia to make sure .32 backporting for imx51 kernels is documented somewhere
<persia> At least I failed completely to document that clearly.
<persia> And I didn't see anything from anyone else.  Can we carry that over?
<NCommander> [action] asac, ogra, persia to make sure .32 backporting for imx51 kernels is documented somewhere (c/o)
<MootBot> ACTION received:  asac, ogra, persia to make sure .32 backporting for imx51 kernels is documented somewhere (c/o)
<cooloney> persia: i believe ogra mentioned some feature of .32 for backporting before
<NCommander> [topic] Specification Review
<MootBot> New Topic:  Specification Review
<persia> cooloney: Yes, but we were supposed to create a list to submit to the kernel team, which we didn't do yet.  I'll try to make sure we do that for next week.
<cooloney> persia: thx, that's really helpful
<NCommander> [topic] mobile-lucid-bringup-testing (plars)
<MootBot> New Topic:  mobile-lucid-bringup-testing (plars)
<NCommander> hrm
<persia> spec review?  Where's that on the agenda?
<NCommander> persia, workitems/spec is on there
<NCommander> (the link to the current spec page is)
<persia> Ah.  I thought that was workitem status review, rather than spec review.
<NCommander> persia, well, I kinda see it as both
<NCommander> I don't think we have enough people to properly do a spec or workitem review, so I'm going to skip it
<persia> Don't mind me: it's your meeting :)
<NCommander> heh
<NCommander> [topic] ARM Image Status
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM Image Status
<NCommander> Actually have some news on this one
 * GrueMaster debates splitting up work items on mobile-lucid-arm-lib-tests for better granularity.
<NCommander> Dove images are working again on Y0.
<persia> All three built great on the 20th.
<NCommander> three?
<persia> Yeah.
<NCommander> We only have two SoCs
<persia> Current Ubuntu images failed today because of initramfs-tools version skew, but should be fixed tomorrow.
<StevenK> I'll be changing them probably this week
<NCommander> They're also working on Y1, but I'm seeing some unusual issues. Might just be me, need someone else with a Y1 to reconfirm
<NCommander> Alternate images should work now
<ericm> NCommander, what're the issues on Y1?
<NCommander> ericm, I'm see an I2C lockup
<persia> Kubuntu Netbook (dove only) failed today due to libphonon4 skew and something with samba I haven't identified yet.
<NCommander> ericm, mv64xxx_i2c mv64xxx_i2c.0: mv64xxx: I2C bus locked, block: 1, time_left: 0
<NCommander> ericm, and it hangs for 4-5 minutes before it continues booting
<ericm> NCommander, they have some patches currently pending - since they introduced a suspend/resume regression
<NCommander> ericm, oh, so this is "expected" behavior?
<ericm> we are currently working on identify the very patch, but other patches may help on this problem
<ericm> I'm not saying that - but I'll check
<NCommander> ericm, ah, ok. I was going to kick an email to you on this today, but I can strike that from ym TODO list now :-)
<ericm> NCommander, we have a LP for this yet?
<NCommander> ericm, not yet. I wanted to confirm it wasn't just my board
<NCommander> Anyway
<ericm> OK, will wait for you email and get it reproduced here at my side
<NCommander> Anyone around who's willing to test lucid alternates?
<ericm> NCommander, I can test it on dove here
<persia> I can start watching the alternates too, to make sure they build
 * persia has been failing to do that
<NCommander> persia, that would be helpful. I'm only tracking xubuntu image builds ATM (need to poke cjwatson and get that changed)
<persia> Is there an Xubuntu arm build I should be tracking?
 * persia was only tracking Ubuntu and Kubuntu
<NCommander> persia, ubuntu, kubuntu, server, and xubuntu build for all architectures
<NCommander> kubuntu-netbook build for i386 and armel+*
<persia> Right.  My list has now been expanded :)
<NCommander> oh, and netboot
<GrueMaster> We need a defined list of what we are officially testing, as all I knew about was the ubuntu-desktop images.
<NCommander> GrueMaster, what we test officially is just ubuntu and ubuntu-netbook once the later is availabnle on ARM
<GrueMaster> o
<GrueMaster> ok
<NCommander> But I like to track image build failures across the board
<NCommander> since its usually a larger problem that needs to be fixed if an email goes bust
<NCommander> s/email/image/g
<persia> And of course, there's no reason *not* to get everything tested, assuming that there are sufficient volunteers
<NCommander> +1 persia
<persia> NCommander: Do you have a current picture of which images are on the ISO tracker?
<NCommander> persia, just ubuntu live images
<NCommander> Alternates need to be added for Alpha 2
<persia> OK.  If things are building cleanly, I'll go bug others to look at getting their stuff on there.
<NCommander> and I believe we're going to be moving from UNE on Live.
<NCommander> persia, if you get it added, feel free to clear the work item out and move the spec to implemented if today's smoke test passes
<persia> Alternates weren't building cleanly last I checked though :)
<persia> heh.  OK.
<persia> I'm done with image status, unless someone else has something to share.
<NCommander> persia, server's britney status is clear
<persia> Excellent.  That's what I get for not checking.
<NCommander> [topic] Any Other Business
<MootBot> New Topic:  Any Other Business
<NCommander> going once?
<NCommander> Oh yes
<NCommander> No meetings again until after new years
<NCommander> Next meeting will be on January 5th, 2010
<persia> Cool!
<NCommander> Everyone have a happy holidays, and a safe New Years!
<NCommander> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 07:43.
 * GrueMaster returns to hibernate mode
<cooloney> thanks,
<cooloney> siya
<pitti> Keybuk, kees, mdz, cjwatson: DMB meeting in 2? (I know that cjwatson is on holidays, and mdz is in a call)
<pitti> so I propose we just wait until mdz returns from his other call
<Keybuk> is there much to cover?
<pitti> just tseliot's core-dev application
<pitti> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperMembershipBoard/Agenda
<pitti> nothing else so far
<Keybuk> oh, +1
<Keybuk> :p
<pitti> Keybuk: any further questions to Alberto? If not, I'll just record your vote (and my +1, too :) ), and keep collecting until we have a quorum
<pitti> meeting, the xmas distributed fashion :)
<tseliot> :-)
<pitti> tseliot: thanks for your excellent upstream situation summary (by mail)
<persia> pitti: I added an item to talk about documentation changes, although it can be postponed if appropriate.
<Keybuk> pitti: I've been working closely with Alberto for the past couple of months, I have no questions and a ringing endorsement :p
<pitti> persia: what do you want to change in particular?
<tseliot> pitti: it didn't make it into the mailing list but at least each one of you received it
<persia> pitti: I'm updating https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopers to reflect the DMB, and had some outstanding questions regarding roles and nomenclature.
<pitti> persia: go ahead, nothing else ongoing right now anyway :)
<persia> OK.  First up: should applicants for core-dev be applying directly to the DMB, rather than first through the MC?
<pitti> persia: from a documentation POV, I'd say yes
<pitti> we'll merge DMB/MC soon (see mdz's announcement and upcoming voting)
<pitti> so from then on there will only be one board anyway, AFAIUI
<persia> I've seen that, and it's part of that which drives my documentation changes :)
<mdz> pitti, here now
<mdz> persia, yes, they should apply to the DMB
<pitti> mdz: ah, good
<persia> Next is that should core-dev applicants be encouraged to previously be Ubuntu Developers (in some way), or is that on a per-applicant basis?
<persia> s/that//
<pitti> Personally I have some mixed feelings about that; I often see contributors who start working on packages in main, and it always takes some synthetic effort to become active on universe packages
<pitti> but it's not the general case, of course
<pitti> what's your feeling about that?
<persia> I had thought that would be covered by groups like Kubuntu Developers or Ubuntu Desktop developers.
<pitti> now that we have delegations and packagesets, it might make more sense to directly apply to kubuntu-dev, and the like
<mdz> persia, both ways are appropriate IMO
<mdz> if their interests align with a particular team, then it's a good idea for them to start there
<persia> OK.  I won't add any specific encouragement that applicants first become developers in another way.
<pitti> so I think an applicant should apply to the team that he wants to work in
<mdz> but going directly to core-dev should be a valid option as well
<mdz> (with a higher barrier to entry)
<persia> OK.
<pitti> persia: does that match your feeling, too?
<persia> Does the DMB also expect to take applicants for Contributing Developer?
<pitti> i. e. should we discuss it further, or is it just collecting "me too"s?
<persia> pitti: I'm comfortable with the idea of permitting applicants directly to core-dev with a higher barrier to entry.
<pitti> I admit that I'm not that familiar with the "contributing developer" concept; what additional privileges does that entail, over being a member?
<persia> None whatsoever.
<persia> It was just how the CC decided to implement the MC being able to grant membership.
<persia> So it exists as a way to document those members who primary contribute through development, but are not yet developers.
<pitti> so it's pretty much a "badge of honor"
<pitti> ah, I see
<persia> Well, you get an email address, business cards, etc.
<pitti> ^ that's membership already
<persia> Precisely :)
<persia> As currently implemented, MC doesn't have admin to ~ubuntumembers, so the extra group exists to permit members to be added.
<persia> I'm not convinced this should remain an MC function with the existence of the DMB, and am more curious to hear opinions from the DMB.
<pitti> so, it seems to me that groups which can grant membership should also be able to grant "membership because of devlopment contributions"
<persia> Ultimately, it may be a CC decision to formally change things, but I'm sure MC and DMB can come to agreement in the meantime.
<persia> pitti: They can, but many of the Regional Membership Boards don't feel able to review contributions limited to development.
<pitti> I see
<persia> And not everyone qualifies for Edubuntu membership or Kubuntu membership
<pitti> so as long as we need this intermediate state because different people make the call, it should probably stay in the MC/DMB area until the structure changes in more fundamental ways
<persia> Does it seem appropriate that it be described as a DMB function, and the DMB shall receive applications?
<pitti> at least for now this seems sensible to me
<pitti> mdz?
<mdz> hmm
<mdz> I feel (and I'm pretty sure sabdfl has said as well) that developer privileges should imply membership
<persia> They do.
<mdz> persia, so why doesn't MC have admin on ~ubuntumembers?
<persia> I'm not sure.
<persia> MC has admin on MOTU, which is a member of ~ubuntumembers, which satisfies the implication you mention.
<mdz> I think the DMB should be able to grant membership independent of developer privileges
<persia> MC also has admin on ~universe-contributors which is a member of ~ubuntumembers
<pitti> but "contributing developer" is a step before becoming an official developer with upload rights, isn't it?
<persia> Not necessarily a step along the way, but it's often done that way.
<mdz> yes, it seems "contributing developer" means "someone who has made contributions sufficient to qualify for Ubuntu membership, but not yet upload privileges"
<ScottK> Contributing developer is nothing more than member via development contribution
<persia> Right.
<mdz> the DMB can and should do that as well
<persia> So the "Contributing Developer" group exists to permit the MC to grant membership separately from upload rights, and I think that it would be appropriate for the DMB to absorb that function (and haven't heard dissent from other MC in email discussions)
<pitti> right, so seems we all agree then?
<persia> OK.  So I'll document it as a DMB function, and I trust that MC will support DMB decisions until we can ask the CC to make the appropriate change.
<persia> Anyone want to take that to the CC, or shall I?
<mdz> pitti, is MootBot broken?
<pitti> I didn't start it TBH
<pitti> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 09:25. The chair is pitti.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<pitti> for formality's sake
<pitti> [TOPIC] Updating https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopers documentation
<MootBot> New Topic:  Updating https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopers documentation
<pitti> persia: so the change would be to make MC an admin of ubuntu-members, right? or did you think of something else?
<mdz> MC and DMB, no?
<pitti> right
<persia> pitti: I figured I'd just leave the structure as is, and ask the CC to make DMB an admin of ~universe-contributors rather than the MC
<pitti> ah, right; I was confused, sorry
<persia> Having the DMB be a direct admin of ~ubuntumembers makes more sense to me, but that's a different discussion.
<pitti> [ACTION] persia to ask CC to make DMB an admin of ~universe-contributors, as part of the DMB/MC merge
<persia> OK.  Next question:
<MootBot> ACTION received:  persia to ask CC to make DMB an admin of ~universe-contributors, as part of the DMB/MC merge
<pitti> sounds ok?
<persia> Sounds fine :)
<persia> Would it make sense to list MOTU (and MC) as a delegated team by DMB?
<pitti> since MC is being merged into DMB, I don't think we need to mention that part
<persia> technically the delegation was from the TB, but I expect that it would be from the DMB was an application made now.
<persia> Oh well, it made the documetation easier to have a parallel between "Ubuntu Desktop Developer", "Kubuntu Developer" and "MOTU" as groups that could only upload to some subset of the archive.
<pitti> for MOTU, I'm not sure; either (from TB or DMB) make sense to me
<pitti> from DMB is more consistent documentation-wise, from TB preserves history and is more focused on the main/universe split
<mdz> consistency and comprehensibility are more important than history or historical archive structure
<persia> I also prefer consistency.
<persia> History can get a w.u.c/MOTU/History page :)
 * pitti nods
<ScottK> Except the residual functionality of MC post-merge won't be developer approval related?
<persia> OK.  Last question: Is the term "Ubuntu Specialist Developer" acceptable as an umbrella category to describe members of "Ubuntu Desktop Developers", "Mythbuntu Developers", "Kubuntu Developers", and "MOTU"?
<mdz> I'd rather emphasize the team orientation than the specialization if possible
<pitti> hm, MOTU seems to be the counterpart of "specialist" to me
<persia> ScottK: I think it depends on the outcome of any potential "merge" of the DMB and the MC.  If merged, it doesn't make sense.  If unmerged, I presume the MC would seek admin for MOTU.
<pitti> aren't all those just "Ubuntu Developers"?
<persia> Yeah, I wasn't very happy with "Specialist" in that context either.  In my draft, I used "Component", but don't want to overload that term.
<ScottK> persia: I think we had a general consensus at UDS, that MC would remain for dispute resolutions and such within the MOTU community.
<persia> pitti: Yes, but they are distinct from other types of Ubuntu Developers (Prospective, Contributing, Core, and Per-package).
<persia> ScottK: That was also my memory, but I think it deserves it's own TOPIC in a meeting, rather than being part of my documentation questions.
<mdz> persia, is "member of an Ubuntu development team" too unwieldy?
<ScottK> persia: Certainly, but it's rather core to the question of where MC's delegation comes from.
<persia> mdz: No, it's structural.  So, looking at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopers there are nice categories.
<persia> The delegated teams can be listed individually, but two of the three have already put up their own separate pages
<pitti> "Ubuntu Team Developer"?
<persia> Which made me want to have a general category for delegated teams with links to all the individual teams, rather than collapsing it all into one page.
<persia> My only fear with "Ubuntu Team Developer" is that it may imply lack of team attitude for other types of developers.
<pitti> right, and since in the end everyone is a team member, it's not any more descriptive than just UD
<persia> ScottK: Interesting point.  Would you concede that if the MC has permission to grant upload rights, that permission is granted by the DMB, regardless of any other delegations to the MC that may exist?
<ScottK> persia: Certainly.  In the current structure and developer approval related functions come from DMB
<persia> ScottK: OK.  I'll update MOTU/Council to reflect mutiple sorts of delegations (pending separate discussion regarding the future of MC)
<pitti> so, I can't seem to make up a good term for this concept
<pitti> persia: would it be okay to do the documentation with "Ubuntu Developer (from delegated team)" for now, and update the name later?
<persia> OK.  For now, I'll just list all the types separately (with some duplication to the Kubuntu Developers page and the Ubuntu Desktop Developers page), and we can think about it more later for the next refresh.
<persia> pitti: That's a much better idea than my compromise :)  Sure.
<pitti> sounds better than "Ubuntu Special Developer Forces" anyway :)
<persia> That's it for my topic.  Thanks a lot for the input.
<persia> :)
<pitti> thanks a lot for updating the documentation!
<pitti> ok, so back to
<ScottK> persia: BTW, the Kubuntu developers page was derived from the MOTU page, but I think it makes sense to keep each page a "complete" description and live with the duplication.
<mdz> pitti, FYI I added a couple of things to the agenda
<pitti> [TOPIC] core-dev application for tseliot
<MootBot> New Topic:  core-dev application for tseliot
<persia> ScottK: Agreed (and pitti's suggestion permits that)
<tseliot> o/
<pitti> mdz: do you want to ask tseliot some questions or are you ready for voting?
<mdz> pitti, no questions
<ScottK> Surely there have to be questions?
<pitti> ScottK: do you have some?
<pitti> ScottK: (FYI, we already had the topic in the last meeting)
<ScottK> pitti: OK, nevermind then.
<pitti> since then Alberto sent a followup with some details
<pitti> (by mail)
<mdz> I followed the MC and DMB discussions by mail
 * tseliot nods
<ScottK> No matter how qualified, I think everyone should get questions.  If he already had his, that's fine.
<pitti> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlbertoMilone/CoreDeveloperApplication
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlbertoMilone/CoreDeveloperApplication
<pitti> [LINK] http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2009/11/26/%23ubuntu-meeting.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2009/11/26/%23ubuntu-meeting.html
<pitti> for the record
<pitti> [VOTE] tseliot core-dev application
<MootBot> Please vote on:  tseliot core-dev application.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<pitti> +1
<mdz> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from pitti. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<MootBot> +1 received from mdz. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<mdz> Keybuk, poke
<pitti> Keybuk: can you formally throw in your vote again, plese?
<Keybuk> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from Keybuk. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<pitti> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 3 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 3
<pitti> tseliot: congrats, and thanks for your great work!
<tseliot> thanks a lot everyone :-)
<pitti> [TOPIC] DMB election
<MootBot> New Topic:  DMB election
<pitti> mdz: thanks for collecting the delegates so far
<mdz> I sent an email to the mailing list with details
<pitti> AIUI we now need some details from Mark how to actually run it?
<mdz> so far there are 10 nominations
<mdz> I am waiting for confirmation from 1 further nominee that they are willing to stand
<mdz> and otherwise am ready to start the vote
<mdz> do you think we should go ahead and start it this week, or wait until the new year?
<mdz> and how long should the voting period be?
<pitti> personally I'd be in favor of running it over the holidays, and an extra two work weeks
<mdz> makes sense to me
<pitti> since community members might have more time to think about this over some holidays
<mdz> me too
<Keybuk> agree
<mdz> so the question then is, how long should I wait for confirmation if someone is nominated by a third party, before starting the vote?
<pitti> it's only Benjamin Drung who is left, right?
<mdz> pitti, no, he confirmed and will be on the ballot
<pitti> ah, right
<Keybuk> the person in question is online, talking on IRC, but didn't respond to my poke
<Keybuk> *shrug*
<mdz> Keybuk, they did respond to me, and said they hadn't decided yet
<persia> I'd think that anyone who couldn't confirm their ability to stand within two weeks would be ill suited toserve on a meeting happening every two weeks.  Dunno how long the query has been pending.
<mdz> persia, only since Friday
<Keybuk> it does seem reasonable to give an amount of time to decide
<mdz> shall we say Thursday?
<Keybuk> sounds fair
<mdz> I'll go ahead with the confirmed candidates then
<pitti> I guess nobody will be online/read mail Thu to Sat at least
<mdz> note I haven't requested confirmation from the TB or MC; instead they need to explicitly decline if they don't want to continue
<persia> But we've had two weeks to explicitly decline, which should be more than fair.
<mdz> right, I'm not concerned about that
<mdz> shall we say 3 weeks for the voting period?
<pitti> sounds fine
<persia> Starting from Friday, or sometime next week?
<mdz> starting Thursday
<mdz> so 24 Dec through 14 January
<persia> I'd think it better to do 3.5 weeks starting Thursday, as so many of our developers are in areas where they may not get mail sent UK Thursday until midweek next.
<persia> Or three weeks starting Monday.
<mdz> so 19 Jan?
<mdz> 18 Jan
<mdz> any objections?
<Keybuk> none
<pitti> [AGREED] DMB voting period: 24 Dec to 18 Jan
<MootBot> AGREED received:  DMB voting period: 24 Dec to 18 Jan
<mdz> [agreed] voting period from 24 dec through 18 jan
<mdz> pitti, :-)
<mdz> GMTA
<pitti> time is up
<Keybuk> mdz: we really need to cure you of this back-seat chairing <g>
<pitti> "MOTU direction" this seems to be a full meeting hour on its own?
<pitti> ScottK: ok to move that to the next meeting?
<pitti> then cjwatson will be back, too
<ScottK> pitti: Definitely and we need cjwatson in any case.
<pitti> [TOPIC] Select a chair for the next meeting
<MootBot> New Topic:  Select a chair for the next meeting
<mdz> pitti, I think so. there is presently an action outstanding for the notes to get written up
<mdz> it would be good to have that completed for the next meeting so that we can discuss
<pitti> Keybuk: do you volunteer?
<mdz> a pretty complete proposal was discussed at UDS which needs to get circulated
<Keybuk> pitti: no, I'm unlikely to be able to chair the next meeting
<Keybuk> (and won't be a member of the DMB at the following one )
<pitti> ok (same for me)
<mdz> when is the next one?
<Keybuk> 5th Jan
<pitti> Jan 5
<mdz> I can do it
<pitti> ok, thanks
<pitti> [AGREED] mdz to chair next meeting
<MootBot> AGREED received:  mdz to chair next meeting
<pitti> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:03.
<pitti> thanks to everyone, and happy $end_of_year holidays!
 * pitti goes to fill the team report and do announcements
<tseliot> happy $end_of_year holidays from me too!
<Seeker`> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 11:18. The chair is Seeker`.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<Seeker`> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:18.
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-12-23
<ttx> anyone here for the server team meeting ?
<mathiaz> /o/
 * jjohansen waves
<alexm> o/
<ttx> ok, let's make it quick :)
<ttx> mathiaz: kirkland was the designated scribe but is in vacation -- you should scribe it as the next in line, and kirkland will replace you as the scribe for next week
<ttx> mathiaz: does that work ?
 * mathiaz nods
<ttx> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 08:02. The chair is ttx.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<ttx> yay Mootbot
<ttx> Agenda @ https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
<ttx> We won't review the ACTIONs from last meeting since all actionmen are away
<ttx> [TOPIC] Check blueprint status and progress for the week
<MootBot> New Topic:  Check blueprint status and progress for the week
<ttx> we'll just review the ones assigned to people that are around...
<ttx> server-lucid-eucalyptus-karmic-retrospective
<ttx>  	75% done, on track
<ttx> server-lucid-eucalyptus-merging-and-packaging
<ttx> 79% done, on track
<ttx> server-lucid-seeds
<ttx> mathiaz ^
<mathiaz> ttx: where is the burndown chart? (ie the url where you get the list of bp)
<mathiaz> ttx: I've reviewed the feedback
<ttx> http://piware.de/workitems/server/lucid-alpha2/report.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://piware.de/workitems/server/lucid-alpha2/report.html
<mathiaz> ttx: and identified items that need more discussion - I plan to send a specific email for each of them after the vacation
<mathiaz> ttx: to maximise the feedback we can get
<ttx> ok, still on track ?
<mathiaz> ttx: yes
<ttx> server-lucid-euca-remote-autoregister (ttx)
<ttx> 50% done, slightly slowed down by 1.6.2 integration work, on track
<ttx> server-lucid-uec-testing (mathiaz)
<mathiaz> ttx: still working on it
<mathiaz> ttx: I'm refining some of the WI while doing the testing as well
<ttx> mathiaz: The 19% completion rate is slightly alarming
<mathiaz> ttx: that's why the WI haven't been finished
<mathiaz> ttx: right - most of them are actually workinprogress
<mathiaz> ttx: and they will be knocked down at the same time
<ttx> ok, so you're confident you can still make alpha2 with this ?
<mathiaz> ttx: yes
<ttx> ok, the other specs are assigned to absent people
<ttx> so we'll skip them
<ttx> [TOPIC] Assigned and to-be-assigned bugs
<MootBot> New Topic:  Assigned and to-be-assigned bugs
<ttx> http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/team-assigned/canonical-server-assigned-bug-tasks.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/team-assigned/canonical-server-assigned-bug-tasks.html
<ttx> nothing to do... Same remarks as last week.
<ttx> Skipping "Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (soren)" since soren is away
<ttx> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (jjohansen)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (jjohansen)
<ttx> jjohansen: howdy
<jjohansen> hey
<ttx> jjohansen: anything specific for us on this holiday season ?
<jjohansen> no, nothing I can think of.
<mathiaz> jjohansen: I send an email to the kernel-team with regard to the kernel-package
<ttx> jjohansen: I'll bring your attention to bug 499785
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 499785 in linux "nic-usb-modules should include asix" [Wishlist,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/499785
<mathiaz> jjohansen: it's in main and we're looking into dropping into universe
<ttx> We'll need that support to test on our UEC/laptops env
<mathiaz> jjohansen: IIRC tim already replied
<jjohansen> ah, I hadn't seen it yet
<ttx> jjohansen: can you make sure that this bug gets attention ?
<jjohansen> yes
<ttx> jjohansen: cool, thx
<mathiaz> jjohansen: Subject: Re: kernel-package compatible with Ubuntu kernels?
 * nealmcb wakes up and looks around at the server team
<ttx> nealmcb: o/
<mathiaz> jjohansen: I think we'll move the package to universe
<mathiaz> that's all from me
<ttx> ok, let's move on then :)
<ttx> [TOPIC] Weekly SRU review (mathiaz)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly SRU review (mathiaz)
<mathiaz> bug 128612
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 128612 in samba "Segfault in Samba installing a printer on a client" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/128612
<mathiaz> ^^ is the only nomination in the queue
<mathiaz> for dapper
<ttx> this one is a recent statusfix
<ttx> it's been fixed forever... doesn't mean the nomination isn't valid, just taht it was nominated 2 years ago
<mathiaz> ok - declining then
<ttx> yes
<mathiaz> http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ubuntu-server-team/fixedbugs.ubuntu-server.latest.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ubuntu-server-team/fixedbugs.ubuntu-server.latest.html
<mathiaz> there is bug 489418
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 489418 in krb5 "Strange behavior of libkrb5 since karmic ..." [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/489418
<ttx> Importance:Undecided ?
 * ttx only looks at High :)
<mathiaz> ttx: agreed
<ttx> mathiaz: sounds like a good candidate
<ttx> well, I also look at Medium
<ttx> and Critical.
<mathiaz> ttx: well the bug is already open for karmic
<mathiaz> ttx: I'll set to high
<ttx> ok.
<ttx> the rest is not relevant imho
<mathiaz> http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ubuntu-server-team/acceptedbugs.ubuntu-server.latest.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ubuntu-server-team/acceptedbugs.ubuntu-server.latest.html
<mathiaz> I need to refine the information on this list
<mathiaz> it's not very usefull as of now
<mathiaz> that's all for the SRU review
<ttx> ok, thx
<ttx> [TOPIC] January 6 meeting
<MootBot> New Topic:  January 6 meeting
<ttx> So the first meeting in January will have a heavy agenda
<ttx> We want to discuss some specs that were not targeted to alpha2, specifically:
<ttx> server-lucid-aws-client-libraries (mathiaz)
<ttx> server-lucid-asterisk-integration (dyfet, Daviey)
<ttx> server-lucid-cluster-stack (RoakSoax, ivoks)
<ttx> lucid-serverguide (sommer)
<ttx> server-lucid-contextualization (stgraber)
<ttx> server-lucid-papercuts (ttx)
<ttx> to see what can be included in the lucid roadmap, and get community comments o nthem
 * Daviey is happy with that :)
<ttx> please be there !
<nealmcb> thanks :)
<mathiaz> ttx: ^^ this is a list of blueprint that still need to be discussed?
<mathiaz> ttx: some other blueprints (like server-lucid-idmgmt-*) haven't been targeted for alpha-2
<mathiaz> ttx: and they don't appear on the list above
<ttx> mathiaz: this is a list of blueprints for which we need some input from the team to decide/continue
<mathiaz> ttx: what's the plan with these?
<ttx> mathiaz: it's mostly a resource issue, not a technical/consensus one
<ttx> mathiaz: so it depends on what we keep from the global list
<ttx> the list is the oens where the community is involved, one way or another
<ttx> for example, for server-lucid-papercuts we need to discuss the process
<ttx> for server-lucid-aws-client-libraries we need to define the most important targets
<ttx> for server-lucid-cluster-stack we need some goals for lucid
<ttx> etc.
<mathiaz> ttx: does this mean that the server-lucid-idmgmt-* bp don't need any discussion?
<ttx> mathiaz: no, it means that the spec is sufficiently defined to reach a decision
<mathiaz> ttx: ok
<ttx> doesn't prevent to discuss it :)
<ttx> the list is the ones where we need community input to make progress
<ttx> that should be an interesting meeting, be sure to be there :)
<ttx> [TOPIC] Open Discussion
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open Discussion
 * ttx opens the bar
 * mathiaz rushes to get some schnaps
<ttx> anything / anyone ?
<ttx> everyone is already drunk or what
<ttx> moving on...
<ttx> [TOPIC] Agree on next meeting date and time
<MootBot> New Topic:  Agree on next meeting date and time
<ttx> We'll skip the last meeting of the year...
<ttx> so the next meeting will be the famous January 6 meeting.
<ttx> same place same time...
<ttx> If you can't make it, feel free to send your cmments to the ML
<ttx> so that we take them into account during the meeting
<ttx> comments ?
<alexm> happy xmas :)
<ttx> yes :)
<ttx> thanks everyone for being here today :)
<ttx> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 08:29.
<mathiaz> ttx: thanks
<alexm> thanks
<ttx> yes
<ttx> less than 30 min
<ttx> :)
<ttx> Have nice holidays everyone
<nealmcb> thanks - take care!
<ttx> mathiaz: when you update the agenda, set kirkland as the next scribe and move the jan6 section to the agenda, thx
<mathiaz> ttx: sure
<james_w> hi
<mvo> hey james_w
<james_w> hi mvo, how's it going?
<tremolux> heya
<mvo> james_w: good! I'm already in best christmas moot :)
<mvo> hey tremolux!
<tremolux> hi mvo!  :)(
<tremolux> :)
 * slangasek waves
<james_w> evand, Keybuk, doko_: around?
<doko_> yes
<james_w> hi
<james_w> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:01. The chair is james_w.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<evand> Hi
<james_w> Hi everyone, welcome to the Foundations Team meeting
<james_w> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/Meetings/2009/1223 <- Agenda
<james_w> first up is the lightning round
<james_w> mvo: would you like to start, then tag the next person when you are done?
<mvo> ok
<mvo> I am working apt merges with debian and with fixes/improvements there
<mvo> I merged the apt history branch that should give us more accurate logging - it contained a hidden abi break that I overlooked, sorry for that
<mvo> I also work on software-center, mostly search improvements and subcategory stuff
 * mvo hands over to tremolux
<tremolux> This week I'm working on some UI fixes in Software Center
<tremolux> I have a branch that will be ready to send over to mvo later today
<tremolux> Other than that, I'll be working on bug triage and fixes for software-center and update-manager
<tremolux> And holidaying
 * mvo should add that the abi break was undone via the upload today
<tremolux> :D
 * mvo hugs tremolux for that!
<tremolux> go slangasek
<slangasek> I spent some time last week / this week getting the machine-readable copyright spec unwedged in Debian
<slangasek> so that we might be able to take it from draft to candidate status in time for lucid
<slangasek> (finally!)
 * slangasek tags james_w 
<james_w> I have mainly been working on the bzr importer, trying to work out why it is so taxing on codehosting now, I have a theory, but it will be a bunch of coding to fix
<james_w> We also have agreement with the bzr team what they will focus on for their "lucid" release, and then what after that
<james_w> evand: tag, you're it
<james_w> doko_: want to go next?
<doko_> still some ARM work, but it's getting to somewhere, both for lucid and lucid+1
<doko_> GCC-4.5 packaged, would like to prepare for a test rebuild in Jan with cjohnston and bigjools
<doko_> plus OpenJDK (6 & 7) updates, and setting up/reinstalling two server machines
<james_w> welcome back ev, do you have a contribution for the lightning round?
<cjohnston> ?
<ev> Working on solving a hosts race between ubiquity and NM from karmic. Merging keyboad guessing and NM config copying. Will be working on jockey integration after the holiday.
<james_w> Keybuk?
<Keybuk> new mountall should fix all the bugs, and implements the plymouth switch and friendlier recovery stuff
<Keybuk> working on the plumbing layer performance; switching to devtmpfs looks like a WIN (reduces overlap with X), next up profiling udev, etc.
<Keybuk> also working on plymouth still since that's got to fit in there somewhere
<Keybuk> that's it isn't it? :p
<james_w> excellent, thanks all
<james_w> [TOPIC] Outstanding actions from last meeting
<MootBot> New Topic:  Outstanding actions from last meeting
<james_w> I couldn't see any
<james_w> [TOPIC] Platform sprint
<MootBot> New Topic:  Platform sprint
<james_w> Please ensure you have booked your travel and updated the wiki page if you are going
<james_w> [TOPIC] Outstanding feature freeze exceptions
<MootBot> New Topic:  Outstanding feature freeze exceptions
<james_w> I don't know of anything for this item. slangasek: do you?
<Keybuk> I could get some in early ;)
<slangasek> don't know of any yet
<slangasek> Keybuk: tell me after the holiday ;)
<james_w> [TOPIC] Milestoned bugs
<MootBot> New Topic:  Milestoned bugs
<james_w> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+bugs?field.milestone:list=1326
<james_w> there's no bugs listed
<james_w> the page doesn't tell me what milestone it is though
 * slangasek scratches his head.  1326?
<james_w> https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+milestone/lucid-alpha-2
<james_w> that has plenty of things on it though
<slangasek> lucid-alpha-2 should be: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+bugs?field.milestone=21444
<james_w> thanks
<james_w> remember to move bugs on and off that list as appropriate
<slangasek> remember to fix the bugs on that list! :)
<james_w> I see a few things on there for us
<james_w> [TOPIC] Targeted bugs
<MootBot> New Topic:  Targeted bugs
<james_w> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+bugs
<james_w> Plenty on there already if you are looking for something to do :-)
<james_w> or you could work on...
<james_w> [TOPIC] Sponsorship Queue
<MootBot> New Topic:  Sponsorship Queue
<james_w> http://people.canonical.com/~dholbach/sponsoring/
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~dholbach/sponsoring/
<dholbach> there's quite a bunch of proposed patches for main
 * james_w hasn't done any in the last week, so isn't going to start that discussion :-)
<james_w> inded
<james_w> I shall make some time to do some of them
<dholbach> so if you all could have a look and either reject the patches (and get them off the list) or upload them if they're good, I (and the patch authors) would very much appreciate it :)
<dholbach> now's probably the best time to get most of the stuff integrated :)
<james_w> [TOPIC] Any business from activity reports
<MootBot> New Topic:  Any business from activity reports
<james_w> I didn't see anything, did I miss something?
<slangasek> not from me
<james_w> I assume there is no release meeting this week?
<slangasek> nope :)
<slangasek> nor next week
<james_w> cool
<james_w> [TOPIC] Select chair for next meeting
<MootBot> New Topic:  Select chair for next meeting
<james_w> this will be in two weeks time
<james_w> any volunteers?
<Keybuk> I think you scared them
<evand> I'll do it.
<james_w> great, thanks evand
<james_w> which brings us to
<james_w> [TOPIC] Good news
<MootBot> New Topic:  Good news
<james_w> anyone have any?
<Keybuk> I don't even have any SNOW, let alone Good News :'(
<highvoltage> I met a girl who sang the blues and I asked her for some happy news, but she just smiled and turned away
<ScottK> Got qt4-x11 stood up on ia64 and slangasek gave us a fix for powerpc we just need to integrate.
<ScottK> That's good news.
<slangasek> my boot time is < 60seconds, that's good news to me :)
<Keybuk> we did slip under 17.5s on max yesterday
<Keybuk> which is HALF WAY THERE!
<james_w> [TOPIC] AOB
<MootBot> New Topic:  AOB
<james_w> anyone with anything else to say?
<slangasek> Merry Christmas!
<st33med> It's not Christmas yet
<st33med> :(
<mvo> almost!
<james_w> ok, thanks everyone
<james_w> have a good break and see you in two weeks
<james_w> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:47.
<tremolux> have fun everybody!
 * slangasek waves
<doko_> bye
<evand> Thanks!
<evand> Have a lovely holiday
<sbalneav> Edubuntu meeting now?
<mgariepy> sbalneav: i think it's in 45 minutes.
<sbalneav> Ah, did it change from 1800 utc to 1900?
<mgariepy> sbalneav, yes it did ;)
<sbalneav> huh, was there an email, or did I just miss it when it was organized in the irc channel?
<sbalneav> Ah, see the email
<sbalneav> what's it doing in -dev?
<sbalneav> Should be in -users
<sbalneav> back
 * stgraber waves
<stgraber> Edubuntu meeting time !!
<alkisg> hi all!
 * sbalneav gives secret masonic handshake
<stgraber> highvoltage, nixternal: ping
<sbalneav> Present
<stgraber> looks like we're missing Jordan Erickson to have all of the council in attendance
<stgraber> anyway, I'm really glad that we finally got that done so we can focus on Lucid now.
<stgraber> Congratulations to all the new members !
<sbalneav> Soooooo.... just out of curiousity, did everyone on the council vote?
<highvoltage> stgraber: pong
<highvoltage> stgraber: yes \o/
<sbalneav> wheeha
<highvoltage> I'm also surprised that everyone unanynously voted yes
<stgraber> I'd think so, we had 6 nominee and each receive 6 votes :)
<stgraber> so it looks like all of the current council members voted for everyone :)
<highvoltage> I was the slightest bit worried that I might get a "no" but it didn't happen
 * alkisg wonders what the other edubuntu members voted... :D
<highvoltage> I'm not sure how mootbot works but I guess we should fire him up
<highvoltage> MootBot: start meeting
<stgraber> Just before we start, I've something scheduled in an hour, so I hope we'll be able to make that meeting fit in the one hour timeslot
<stgraber> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 13:04. The chair is stgraber.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<highvoltage> ah right
<stgraber> Meeting agenda is available at: https://wiki.edubuntu.org/Edubuntu/Meetings/Agenda
<highvoltage> I guess we more or less covered the New Edubuntu Council, for those who missed the election results: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/node/1961
<stgraber> So, just for the record, the new council is made of: Alkis Georgopoulos, Jonathan Carter, Jordan Erickson, Richard Johnson, Scott Balneaves and myself.
<stgraber> which is something like half of edubuntu-members (I hope we'll get more members there soon !) ;)
<highvoltage> do we want to discuss the role of the EC tonight?
<stgraber> we probably can talk about it for up to 10min or so
<sbalneav> "Doing everything"
<sbalneav> discussed :)
<highvoltage> ok great
<alkisg> ;)
<stgraber> the others meetings item should go quite fast as it's basically discussing and distributing tasks for Lucid :)
<highvoltage> so we can move on to technical aspect
<sbalneav> I have 2 things for the agenda, putting my name forward.
<stgraber> Just so that everyone is aware of it, Jonathan and I are marked as release contact for Edubuntu
<stgraber> so the release team will poke one of us when a new release is coming (alpha, beta, rc, final) to know if we're ready to release and get release information (announcement, notes)
<highvoltage> (I'm taking notes for the list so if I take a few seconds longer to reply than usual, that's why)
<sbalneav> The scripts that LaserJock poked at to make the dvd, do they run automatically?  Or do we have to do something?
<stgraber> at the time, the release team asked, the new council wasn't voted yet, so having both of us made the most sense at the time. I still think it does as we're the ones who already did part of that work in the past but feel free to help anyway :)
<stgraber> yes, they're run once a day
<stgraber> and I get the output by mail in the morning
<stgraber> so each day I know if something failed and can tweak the seeds and meta to fix if something is broken (didn't have to do that yet though)
<highvoltage> I guess it would be too excessive to make them go to edubuntu-devel
<stgraber> I expect that I'll have to poke at that soon to make Live LTSP working
<stgraber> yeah, you don't want that on edubuntu-devel, most of the days it's just an empty report
<alkisg> stgraber: could you give us a few more details about how's this going to work?
<stgraber> and I'm also getting something similar for Ubuntu itself so I can easily see if something is Edubuntu-specific or not
<highvoltage> stgraber: did you get a responce from cjwatson?
<stgraber> looks like we're moving to the technical part of the meeting, so let's go :)
<stgraber> first part is Live LTSP
<stgraber> the idea is to have a working LTSP server right from the Live CD
<stgraber> that means having the necessary packages on the DVD (but not installed)
<stgraber> and a chroot built in Canonical DC and put on the DVD
<stgraber> then a script or nice GUI to install these packages + configure them in the Live environment (that'd have to be manually trigerred by the user)
<stgraber> then we'll need an installer hook to copy the LTSP installation to the destination system if wanted
<stgraber> there's a few points I don't know how to achieve, I sent an e-mail to Collin about it on Monday but I suspect he's on holiday
<nixternal> yo yo
<stgraber> for these of you interested in that, I'm happy to forward you the e-mail I sent to Collin (that's basically a more detailed description of what I just said)
<sbalneav> I have 2 objections to the Live LTSP, but I register them NOT as something to block it's progress, since this seems to be what people want, but, in the interests of going on the record....
<alkisg> stgraber: please do :)
<highvoltage> stgraber: I'm wondering whether the installer hook is really all that important for lucid. it would be nice, but if it turns out to be a lot of work and hard to achieve then we could also add a menu entry for the installed system that says something like "Activate LTSP" that would pop up a gui that either installs LTSP from the Edubuntu DVD or from scratch. not sure how you feel about that?
<sbalneav> 1) It's going to use a lot of space on the DVD that could be used for either langpacks, which brings edubuntu to a wider audience, or could be used for more softaware/content (i.e. moodle plus course content)
<stgraber> highvoltage: I'm waiting on Collin's answer for that, but it's clearly an option indeed.
<stgraber> 1) We currently have more than the 300MB I need fo LTSP on the DVD, also, I plan to drop the Desktop from the Alternate installer if we need to get more space. Everything will then be installable from the live environment.
<sbalneav> 2) The performance is going to suck, and some people may draw inferences between what a livecd gives them versus a "real" ltsp install, performance wise (i.e. "eugh, this sucks we can't run a lab like this")
<highvoltage> hmm, that looks like 3 :)
<stgraber> 2) That's indeed an issue, though having tested reading the chroot from a DVD, it's not that bad actually. We'll need to make that clear in the tool though.
<highvoltage> oh that's stgraber, my bad
<nixternal> sbalneav: how bad will the performance be? will it at least be manageable for a demo of sorts and not for typical use?
<sbalneav> I'm merely playing devil's advocate :)
<nixternal> stgraber: I am guessing the LTSP Live would be for demos?
<nixternal> assuming rather
<stgraber> the main use case is for demo/training and release parties. And I noticed a quick important interest for that (at UDS mostly)
<stgraber> nixternal: yep
<nixternal> groovy
<highvoltage> sbalneav: I like you playing the devil's advocate
<highvoltage> sbalneav: because other people are going to ask these same questions
<alkisg> I think if the server has enough RAM, and it caches everything after a few minutes of usage, it'll go pretty well...
<nixternal> sbalneav: would it be feasable at least for demos and such?
<nixternal> usable is probably the better word
<sbalneav> Well, so long as people understand they're trying to boot 30 workstations off a device that's a couple of orders of magnatude slower than a hard disk, it's fine, for demo/testing purposes
<stgraber> I guess the important part here is the wording used in the tool you'll use to start the LTSP server.
<highvoltage> I guess the 300MB part is small enough to cache in a tmpfs in most situations
<stgraber> if we make it clear it's for demo, it's not perfectly secure (we'll have some SSH issue for sure with the DVD) and performance are decreased. It'll be fine.
<sbalneav> But we KNOW a certain percentage are going to draw performance conclusions about LTSP off of the live cd performance.  And in that way, we may be hurting ourselves.
<sbalneav> But, I guess we won't know until we try, so, carry on seargent major :)
<alkisg> sbalneav: with the same logic, live dvds shouldn't exist :)
<highvoltage> we could check how much ram is available and if it's more than 1GB or so we copy the squashfs to the chroot. it will help save at least some cd-rom disc access, and speed up booting substantially
<alkisg> (I'm playing the opposite devil :D)
<stgraber> sbalneav: I guess the number of users that'll complain will be lower than the number we'll introduce to LTSP through that.
<highvoltage> also, people could be encouraged to write it to a USB hard disk for better performance
<sbalneav> That's fine, like I say, my objecttions are purely academic in nature.
<highvoltage> I think the type of people who would want to demo a Live LTSP setup are sensible enough to understand that it would be slow from DVD
<highvoltage> I'd also like to see some real life tests, and see how slow/fast it would actually be
<stgraber> anyway, that's clearly something I'd like for Lucid and I'm going to invest time into that (well, Revolution Linux will ;)), we can still drop it later if we find it's been a mistake but I doubt we'll :)
<alkisg> It'll also be used to test client hardware compatibility, which is difficult to test otherwise.
<sbalneav> Well, yeah, but if you hang around #ubuntu for an hour you'll see things like "I just tried the live cd on my single-spin cdrom, why's it so slow? I thought linux was fast wahh wahh" etc. :)
<stgraber> alkisg: indeed, that's a good usecase too.
<sbalneav> But like I say, lets try it and see
<stgraber> cool, next up is the Edubuntu menu editor
<sbalneav> So long as we go into it with eyes wide [Open|Shut] :)
<stgraber> we wrote a spec about it at: https://wiki.edubuntu.org/Edubuntu/Specifications/EdubuntuLucidMenuEditor
<stgraber> and have a LP project here: https://launchpad.net/menueditor
<stgraber> mgariepy started working on it and has at least the UI ready (not sure how much of the backend/xdg is done yet)
<stgraber> want me to do a quick intro or are you reading through the spec ?
<sbalneav> mgariepy: are you shooting to have it in for Lucid?
 * nixternal was reading the spec
<stgraber> mgariepy: around ?
<mgariepy> the ui is like 85% finish, altought i'll put this code on quickly
<sbalneav> He was here a bit ago
<mgariepy> yeah
<sbalneav> there he is
<mgariepy> it will be on lucid.
<stgraber> sbalneav: we have a roadmap at the end of the spec, idea is to have that in Main for Lucid.
<sbalneav> perfect.
<sbalneav> If I can help, let me know.
<stgraber> I already contacted Guadalinex (asanchez), they'll be providing some example menus, so will RL for the Quebec and maybe the US too
<stgraber> I hope to have time to look at the code in the next two weeks so we can be on time to get it in universe and then promoted to main before FF (mid-february)
 * nixternal rsyncs dvd iso before he forgets
<stgraber> so far, that's one of our "lucid features" that's the most advanced :)
<sbalneav> Sorry, I have 4 items, when it gets to me
<stgraber> sbalneav: ok, noted
<stgraber> next on the agenda, we have the Netbook edition
<stgraber> I heard quite a bit of demand for that from customers + community and it really shouldn't be hard to achieve at least as an installer option on the DVD
<stgraber> maintaining another image for Lucid may be a bit too much for us yet
<stgraber> opinions "
<stgraber> ?
<highvoltage> stgraber: what are you thinking... a meta-package for UNR?
<nixternal> we have 2 editions available for use, Ubuntu Netbook Edition and Kubuntu Netbook Remix
<alkisg> I also think it'll be pretty useful, and I think students here in Greece will use it.
<nixternal> couldn't we just have a custom edubuntu-netbook-defaults-{kde|gnome} or such?
<stgraber> highvoltage: I was thinking, installer option that'll install an additional meta-package on the target system (containing the launcher, maximus, ...) yep
<nixternal> have them for addons if anything in Lucid?
<highvoltage> stgraber: aaah, an option to the edubuntu install image... nice
<stgraber> we can certainly have the meta packages and the installer task
<stgraber> then it'd be great if we could have that meta package installed through the installer too
<stgraber> anyone who would have time to work on the spec ? (I'm fine with mentoring/uploading/...)
 * highvoltage 
<stgraber> yeah ! one less on my list, that's awesome :)
<alkisg> Since we'll already have the necessary bits on the DVD, it'd be nice if we implemented "installing to netbooks from network, using the live dvd as the server". (netbooting = https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Installation/Netboot)
<highvoltage> writing specs are fun, especially making up names for the use cases :D
<stgraber> highvoltage: hehe :)
<highvoltage> stgraber: I'll have a full draft ready by Monday'ish
<stgraber> alkisg: we won't be able to netinstall as we will only have a live environment and not all the packages
<highvoltage> alkisg: that's actually a very good idea, I think it could be a killer feature and quite easy to implement
<stgraber> alkisg: netinstall requires a package repository
<highvoltage> stgraber: not necessarilly
<highvoltage> stgraber: we could boot the livecd over the network
<stgraber> highvoltage: oh ? they provide the bits to boot the livecd now ?
<alkisg> stgraber: see the link I posted..
<stgraber> last I tried we were missing some stuff in the initrd for that to be possible
<highvoltage> stgraber: I had some trouble too trying to do it before, but ogra told me that it has been done before, so it can be done
<stgraber> alkisg: what I read on that page is about the text installer (aka, netboot)
<alkisg> Bah wrong link - anyway I've done this
 * alkisg can look into it, if people think it'll be useful
<stgraber> highvoltage: yeah, I have done it too, it requires some changes to the initrd which I would like to avoid as that'd mean shipping two initrds
<stgraber> highvoltage: that's easy to do outside the scope of the official DVD build
<highvoltage> alkisg: I'm making a note of it for the minutes, I think it's worth looking in to for lucid if it's as simple as we think
<alkisg> Nice
<stgraber> alkisg: yep, sending information on how to do it is clearly interesting, we can then discuss if that's possible to do it in Lucid or just provide the user with information on how he can do it
<stgraber> next point before I leave the stage to sbalneav is Artwork
<highvoltage> I think users generally don't mind copying and pasting a few commands from a wiki page if it gives them enough gain
<highvoltage> it could probably be provided via a script as well
<stgraber> I've sent an e-mail about it to the ML a few weeks ago and got an answer from Mads Rosendahl who's interesting in helping us there with whatever we need
<alkisg> Right, even a (simple enough) wiki page would do.
<stgraber> next step will be to list all of the requirements for each part of the artwork and announce that to edubuntu-* and ubuntu-artwork
<stgraber> I've done it with LTSP in the past with very good results
<stgraber> I'll be working on that spec this week or next and will announce it first on -devel so you can all review it before I send a call for artwork
<stgraber> sounds good ?
<nixternal> +1
<highvoltage> I quite like the default LDM Ubuntu background (the white with the fire stripe thingy)
<sbalneav> +1
<stgraber> highvoltage: that's one of Mads Rosendahl's contributions
<highvoltage> stgraber: cool
<alkisg> I'm not really sure that the artwork is appropriate for older students. I.e., for some ages and up I'd prefer the default theme... Sure, I could use update-alternatives later, so, +1
<stgraber> and I like it a lot too
<highvoltage> stgraber: I'm not familiar with Mads Rosendahl, but I'll look up his work
<stgraber> alkisg: yep, as we are on a DVD we also have more spaces for alternative artwork
<highvoltage> alkisg: I hear you, I think edubuntu is ready for something more elegant
<alkisg> Hmmm then it would be possible to select the standard ubuntu artwork somehow?
<stgraber> highvoltage: met him in person at UDS, very nice guy and he's been doing very good work and wants to do more.
<highvoltage> alkisg: still fun, still youthfull, something that would encourage a feel for learning, but elegant :)
<stgraber> alkisg: we can provide alternatives background quite easily
<highvoltage> stgraber: cool, we must get him to do more then :)
<alkisg> stgraber: I got some negative feedback about the icons, mostly...
<stgraber> so the splash and login background shouldn't be age-specific and nor should be the default background
<highvoltage> alkisg: the gartoon icons?
<mhall119|work> sorry to interrupt, but congrats to those who were elected the other day
<highvoltage> they have become rather dated
<nixternal> that they have
<stgraber> mhall119|work: thanks
<alkisg> highvoltage: yup... the comments were "too childish" - of course the comments were made by older students
<highvoltage> thanks mhall119|work
<alkisg> Younger students liked them
<stgraber> I guess a new icon theme would be a good idea, or using the same as ubuntu
<highvoltage> I think they were fine for the first few edubuntu releases, I think they should still be included, probably just not default
<stgraber> we can still ship gartoon so it's available if you want to
<mhall119|work> gnome-colors is a nice icon packl
<highvoltage> stgraber: *nod*
<stgraber> cool, so that's 15 minutes for sbalneav !
<highvoltage> I'm quite a big fan of the breathe icon theme
<highvoltage> it's one of the first things I install on all my ubuntu machines
<nixternal> seems there has been an update to gartoon in october adding some new icons
<nixternal> though I think the icons actually fit edubuntu, even though they seem "old" to me
<sbalneav> I quite like the gartoon theme
<stgraber> highvoltage: yep, from the little I saw it, it looks great
<sbalneav> better than the default ubuntu one.
<sbalneav> Should I go?
<highvoltage> (it's available from the breathe-icon-theme package just in case anyone wants to try it out)
<highvoltage> sbalneav: please, fire away!
<nixternal> highvoltage: I use it as well...I do like it indeed
<nixternal> it has that Oxygen feel to it from KDE4
<sbalneav> 1) Status of my work for sabayon for Lucid
<sbalneav> http://git.gnome.org/browse/sabayon/log/
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://git.gnome.org/browse/sabayon/log/
<sbalneav> I've been hard at work, getting Sabayon to the point where teachers will be able to use it actively, and usefully.
<sbalneav> In the past 2 months, I've added apply-by-group, which is huge, fixed all the crasher bugs, integrated it with Pessulus properly, and written a manual for it.
<sbalneav> in the process, I'm now a Gnome developer.  I have git AND ftp access, and will soon be a full on Gnome foundation member.
<sbalneav> So, we should *FINALLY* have a management solution for teachers.
<alkisg> Congrats sbalneav :)
<nixternal> wow, first time I have looked at sabayon...that is pretty awesome!
<nixternal> "It does this by providing a "desktop within a window", allowing you to customize your desktop as you see fit, then recording your changes, to be applied to users by the sabayon-apply program at login time."  <- FOR THE WIN!
<stgraber> sbalneav: poke me as soon as you need someone to sponsor upload to the archive, I'll be glad to help
<sbalneav> 2:
<sbalneav> http://git.gnome.org/browse/nanny
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://git.gnome.org/browse/nanny
<highvoltage> sbalneav: wow, awesome!
<sbalneav> nanny is a brand new package, just been uploaded in  the last few days.
<sbalneav> I'll package it for Lucid.  Basically allows a parent/teacher to control time on the workstation, content, etc.
<stgraber> that's the parental control thingy right ?
<sbalneav> right.
<sbalneav> I've already made contact with the devel.
<sbalneav> He asked me to wait a couple of days while they get a website together, and fix some bugs
<stgraber> cool, how likely are we to get a working release for Lucid ?
<sbalneav> but then was pleased to have someone willing to get it in a distro.
<mhall119|work> sbalneav: wasn't there a project in launchpad for that kind of control?
<highvoltage> as in https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/desktop-zeitgeist-parental-control-lucid ?
<sbalneav> Well, I'm willing to bet pretty good
<stgraber> (just remembering everyone, "in Lucid", means second week of February)
<sbalneav> I don't see a lot of code on that blueprint, whereas nanny has code.
<sbalneav> code > great plans every time :)
<sbalneav> If the other materialized, we can race 'em.
<highvoltage> sbalneav: indeed, perhaps we should let them know of your work
<sbalneav> 3) I want to, over the holidays, have someone help me get my upload privs
<sbalneav> fixing bugs for my item #4, plus my work for sabayon's getting hard just doing it in my ppa.
<highvoltage> we should perhaps briefly speak about the archive reorganisation, I'm not sure if you're familiar with it sbalneav?
<sbalneav> Yeah, I keep hearing all sorts of things.
<sbalneav> but let me be brutally blunt.
<nixternal> do we have edubuntu-devel in LP yet?
<stgraber> the most important thing here is to get edubuntu-dev approved for uploads to edubuntu-related packages
<sbalneav> yes we do.
<highvoltage> stgraber is bettter in the loop about it than me, but basically, we could have an edubuntu upload group that affects all edubuntu packages, even in main
<stgraber> but we can discuss that just after
<sbalneav> how long will that take?
<nixternal> and if we add someone to edubuntu-devel they get upload rights to the edubuntu packages?
<nixternal> that is all taken care of I assume?
<stgraber> nixternal: that bit has to be done
<nixternal> stgraber: what all is left? I can help push that along
<stgraber> nixternal: having edubuntu-dev granted upload rights to all edubuntu-related packages
<nixternal> do like we do with kubuntu-devel...those members get to vote on someone becoming an edubuntu developer
<sbalneav> because, quite frankly, I became an upstream GNOME developer with keys to git in a couple of months with just one persons say-so, but I've been contributing to Ubuntu/Edubuntu for years, and I still don't have the ability to materially fix anything :)
<nixternal> ok, so that needs to be done on the canonical side then, and I am also assuming they are aware of it?
<nixternal> sbalneav: you can fix it, we just have to upload it :p
<stgraber> nixternal: that's on my todo for early next year
<nixternal> stgraber: rock on
<nixternal> early next year == 9 days :)
<sbalneav> Anyway, I need push access.
<nixternal> or 8.5 for us in chicago
<sbalneav> 4) Bug day
<stgraber> well, that's for "when Canonical people are back from holidays"
<nixternal> right
<sbalneav> We need to schedule one, so that I can take a day off.
<nixternal> they seem to always be on holidays too
<sbalneav> work, that is
<nixternal> sbalneav: hahahahaha
<stgraber> actually there's two days that we need to schedule
<sbalneav> and spend a day HARD on fixing bugs
<stgraber> - bug day
<stgraber> - wiki day
<nixternal> getting out of work to do a bug day....now that is a new one...no more "My significant other is ill, I can't make it in today" or "I am not *cough* *choke* *puke* feeling well today" :)
<sbalneav> what I'd like from all of you is to spend maybe an hour on the bugsquad page, and think about what you feel will give us the BIGGEST bang for the buck in terms of stability for Lucid.
<highvoltage> +1 on bug day and wiki day
<sbalneav> nixternal: I just book a day of my holidays.
 * stgraber looks at his calendar for some random dates in the next month or so
<highvoltage> the randommer the better
<highvoltage> (exluding January 1 hopefully :p)
<stgraber> sbalneav: any preference (I just do it at work so it doesn't really matter for me and highvoltage)
<stgraber> += ?
 * nixternal wishes he could do it at work, but he doesn't work :(
<sbalneav> I'm fine anytime.
<alkisg> Maybe a little late, to have a chance to test more alpha releases?
<nixternal> docs...think it is time for those to get reworked
<alkisg> Or does it have to be old bugs?
<highvoltage> nixternal: as in, a docs hug day?
<sbalneav> what would be good is at least if stgraber and HV were available for uploads as I fix the bugs, but that doesn't sound like a problem.
<nixternal>  we would need a "doc hug month" I believe
<sbalneav> nixternal: That's another issue.
<sbalneav> LTSP docs are now in some kind of good state
<highvoltage> I guess a day would be a good start :)
<nixternal> we can at least use ubuntu-docs as a great basis to include some of our stuff
<stgraber> 12nd and 21st of January ?
<sbalneav> we need to package them so they'll be in gnome helpcenter
<sbalneav> and then get the handbook fixed up.
<highvoltage> stgraber: +1
<stgraber> (avoid Mondays and Fridays + taking days I don't have meetings schedule yet :))
<sbalneav> 12 for bugs, 21 for wiki?
<stgraber> sbalneav: yep
<sbalneav> Sounds good
<highvoltage> I would be tempted to say wiki first, but since feature freeze is so close I guess it's sensible to do bugs first
<stgraber> good, booking Jonathan and I then
<highvoltage> what aboud a docs hug day?
<sbalneav> Marked in my calendar.
<highvoltage> for the 31st?
<sbalneav> I'd say wait till after feature freeze
<stgraber> done
<sbalneav> We can still update docs after FF, right?
<stgraber> yep
<nixternal> yeah, after feature freeze, preferably closer to UI freeze
<stgraber> after FF for docs sounds good
<sbalneav> nixternal: yeah
<highvoltage> sbalneav: yep, although I think it would be good if we at least take some inventory of what we've got, what needs to be done, etc
<stgraber> we can schedule that at a later time
<sbalneav> we can talk about it briefly wiki day maybe
<stgraber> highvoltage: yep, doing a quick review and posting to the ML sounds good
<nixternal> for the handbook, I say we make it minimal, leveraging the ubuntu-docs...make edubuntu-docs depend/require ubuntu-docs, and then the handbook cover just educational stuff
<highvoltage> ok
<nixternal> that will make it so much easier to hug
<stgraber> nixternal: and depend on the ltsp handbook for the LTSP part
<nixternal> of course :)
<sbalneav> OK
<nixternal> I will get the edubuntu-docs stuff rolling at least to prepare for some hugging
<sbalneav> That's all from my desk.
<stgraber> cool
<highvoltage> if kde-edu's docs are good then between that, Ubuntu and LTSP docs it should cover at least 95% of everything needed
<stgraber> I don't have much time left on my side but we also have the website on the schedule
<sbalneav> right, and the handbook can tie it all together,
<stgraber> Is anyone willing to spend time improving it or should we try recruiting someone else for that ?
<sbalneav> I really liked it when we had it in helpcenter.
<sbalneav> Handbook?
<sbalneav> I'll do it.
<highvoltage> can we spend a few minutes to talk about the website?
<stgraber> it'd clearly need some design work + fixing + updating the content
<nixternal> highvoltage: kde-edu's docs are lacking a bit, I need to spend time upstream obviously :)
<highvoltage> not sure how you'd feel about this stgraber, especially since I know you like drupal, but I think Wordpress would be nice for the Edubuntu site
<stgraber> I have a gobby document if not even a wiki page about what we'd like to be part of the wiki and website, I'll send it to the ML for review
<highvoltage> nixternal: heh :)
<nixternal> edubuntu doesn't ship khelpcenter right?
<highvoltage> stgraber: I think it would also be nice having an Edubuntu blog on the site for news that gets aggregated to planet Ubuntu, which we'd also use for meeting minutes, etc
<stgraber> highvoltage: what'd be the advantage of WP here ? I don't think we really have any blog-like content yet, it's mostly pages.
<sbalneav> website wise, aren't we stuck with whatever canonical provides?
<nixternal> I will find out in the next 10 minutes as the iso finishes rsync'ing
<highvoltage> stgraber: right, for now
<nixternal> highvoltage: I think we could leverage the Fridge for stuff like that
<stgraber> highvoltage: Drupal works really well for blogging btw :) (my blog runs on Drupal)
<highvoltage> stgraber: I like how easy wordpress is to maintain, it does one click upgrades, where our drupal installation is almost always outdated
<stgraber> you won't have upgrades in Canonical DC
<nixternal> right
<highvoltage> stgraber: what do you mean? I have login on that server :)
<stgraber> servers don't have internet access and you can't write files with the web account
<nixternal> I would say keep the website information, news/minutes and stuff can go on the Fridge
<nixternal> I am a Ubuntu News Editor, and I am sure it would be hard to get one or more of you on there as well so you could post news
<nixternal> s/would/wouldn't/
<stgraber> highvoltage: is that in Canonical DC ? because the servers I have access to don't even have access to LP :)
<stgraber> nixternal: sounds good
<nixternal> I need to get Kubuntu to do the same :)
<stgraber> we can always put a block or something following the fridge using RSS (if we can make our box talk with the fridge one ;))
<nixternal> yup
<stgraber> highvoltage: sounds reasonable ?
<highvoltage> stgraber: I believe so, it has an ip address of 91.189.94.141 and hosts things like planet.launchpad.net, www.markshuttleworth.com, popcon.ubuntu.com, kubuntu.org and a few others
<highvoltage> stgraber: it does
<stgraber> highvoltage: ok, it seems to be a lot easier than the Canonical QA servers :)
<nixternal> you can talk to ryanacka in kubuntu-devel, as he has experience with updating the Kubuntu website....he might have pointers to make the work on our end easier since we both face similar situations
<highvoltage> stgraber: I had to wrestle elmo for it ;)
<nixternal> I do know whatever changes you request, in a bzr branch, have to go through intensive security checks before it gets uploaded/approved
<stgraber> highvoltage: hehe, ok :)
<stgraber> nixternal: yeah, I have to send my code through security review for qa.ubuntu.com, though that's mostly for the PHP code. Python code is a lot easier to get updated :)
<stgraber> (as in, I do it live on the server ...)
<stgraber> ok, I'll really have to go :)
<stgraber> any other businesses ?
<highvoltage> yes!
<highvoltage>   Liaison with other projects (Qimo, Guadalinex, Sugar, ...)
<highvoltage> we
<stgraber> oh, thanks, forgot about this one.
<highvoltage> we're losing our sugar packages
<highvoltage> not sure if you guys saw ogra's mail today
<mhall119|work> is GDM theming in Lucid going to be easier than in Karmic?  I'm seriously thinking about pushing back Qimo 2.0 so that I can base it off an LTS
<stgraber> It'd be great to have someone taking care of talking with each of them. I have a quite good relationship with the guys at Guadalinex (through their company, Isotrol)
<stgraber> mhall119|work: I don't think so, at least not yet.
<highvoltage> stgraber: Isotrol? :)
<stgraber> do we have someone who'd like to care about sugar, it's quite a bit of work I believe and not something I'd have time to work on myself
<highvoltage> they're trolling for isos? :p
<stgraber> highvoltage: hehe :)
<highvoltage> yeah sugar is way too big a beast for me at this stage
<highvoltage> I've talked to mhall119|work before about helping him with some of those artwork packages and getting them into Ubuntu
<highvoltage> we need to turn him into a MOTU and Edubuntu-dev (when it exists eventually) as well
<highvoltage> mhall119|work: so if you wouldn't mind me being assinged to work on relationship with Qimo I'd be glad to :)
<stgraber> would be great
<highvoltage> mhall119|work: not that it's all that necessary probably since you're already part of us :)
<mhall119|work> highvoltage: half my artwork is obsolete now with XSplash and the new GDM
<mhall119|work> highvoltage: I'd love having your help
<highvoltage> mhall119|work: great!
<stgraber> so I guess we should announce on edubuntu-* that we're looking for someone to work on Sugar ?
<stgraber> possibly looking at what's the state in Debian and proposing ways to improve what we have in Ubuntu
<highvoltage> mhall119|work: I'll give you a ping somewhere between the 4th and 9th and then we can discuss it in some detail?
<stgraber> if we don't then I'm affraid we'll have to look at it again for Lucid+1
<mhall119|work> highvoltage: we have #qimo registered, if you want to pop in there
<mhall119|work> or email me
<mhall119|work> mhall119@ubuntu.com
<highvoltage> ok
<highvoltage> stgraber: +1 on asking for some help on sugar
 * stgraber looks at the clock
<stgraber> anything else ?
<sbalneav> Nope
<stgraber> next meeting ?
<highvoltage> additionally, I think we should blog about Edubuntu and current plans and progress and since we have work that don't have people assinged to it, invite people to work on those areas (such as sugar)
<stgraber> next week or should we wait for after the holidays ?
<sbalneav> Why not one after the 21st
<stgraber> highvoltage: +1
<stgraber> sbalneav: as in, after the wiki day ?
<highvoltage> I think we could do another meeting on the 28th and 29th?
<highvoltage> (of this month?)
<stgraber> highvoltage: yep
<sbalneav> Oh, ok, if you want to have one that soon shure.
<stgraber> sbalneav: we should really have a meeting quite soon just to handle answers we may get on the list
<stgraber> then another before the bug/wiki days so we can prepare them properly
<highvoltage> sbalneav: I think it's good to do it weekly, I think it's fine if not everyone can make it, but since timelines are short it's probably goot to get people together regularly
<sbalneav> Sounds fine.
<stgraber> and then one after or something like that
<sbalneav> +1
<sbalneav> +999
<stgraber> it also makes spec tracking a lot easier
<stgraber> what about 29th 19UTC ?
<highvoltage> indeed, my memory isn't that great so if we spend more than 2 weeks not having a meeting I could forget everything :)
<highvoltage> stgraber: +1
<stgraber> great, so see you all next week
<mgariepy> stgraber, +1
<sbalneav> +1
<mgariepy> i should be there, but remind me if we see each other ;)
<stgraber> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 14:28.
<stgraber> mgariepy: will do, don't worry :)
<highvoltage> heh I'll give you a ping too mgariepy :)
<stgraber> you're only like 30s away from my place anyway
<highvoltage> it's great seeing Edubuntu in full swing again :D
 * highvoltage grabs the meeting bong stick
<stgraber> got to go now, was a great meeting, thanks everyone
<alkisg> Nice team :)
<highvoltage> *BONG*
<highvoltage> (we can move to #edubuntu for further discussions, etc)
<highvoltage> oh, and remember to blog!!!
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-12-26
<blake7> gfhgfh
<blake7> hello
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-12-27
 * shriekout $decode(s60gwKe068fRILDHtOPAzLTZISEhDQpuaWNrILDHtOMNCnF1aXQgOrDHtOMgx9ewocfXsKE=,m)
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-12-30
<geeknik> Good morning. =) Just an FYI, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/Americas hasn't been updated to reflect the date of the next meeting.
<beardygnome> hi all
<beardygnome> anyone in here?
<charlie-tca> How many are here for xubuntu meeting?
<beardygnome> i am
<charlie-tca> Would you mind if we cancel today?
<charlie-tca> We seem to be a bit short on participation, blame it on the holidays...
<beardygnome> well, i've got nothing of my own to contribute, so unless you've got something the two of us can discuss....
 * pleia2 waves
<pleia2> no updates from me either, I emailed cody about the site but still waiting on reply (holidays)
<charlie-tca> Thanks. Let's try for next thursday, and we will have something by then. We have a lot in progress, but few updates today.
<charlie-tca> I apologize for not getting notices out this week.
<beardygnome> ok charlie-tca, see you then
<charlie-tca> Have a good New Year's!
<pleia2> you too :)
<beardygnome> you too. see you later pleia2
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-12-31
<virtuald> lastlog ipv6
<Emerling> happy new year feliz aÃ±o nuevo
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-01-02
<Mehdi_> hi
<Mehdi_> hello
<Mehdi_> quit
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-12-27
<Listopad2011> Hello
<Listopad2011> Hoa I can add my program (freeware) do ubuntu?
<SergioMeneses> hi all
<MrChrisDruif> Aloha SergioMeneses
<SergioMeneses> MrChrisDruif, \o
<MrChrisDruif> o/
<SergioMeneses> here... still working
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-12-29
<Encrypt> Bonjour !
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-12-24
<solarcloud_3scrn> Hey hey hey ... There was an Ubuntu-gaming meeting last night in this #channel ... What is happpening [??] https://dl.dropbox.com/u/55128914/Attachments%20Email%20Xchat/Ubuntu%20gaming%20meeting%20www.ubuntu-gaming.launchpad.net%2C%20Monthly%20on%20the%20Forth%20Sunday%20%28Dec%29.png (Open .PNG Link in browser)
 * solarcloud is away: /me requires JuanValdez. BRBack...  now for that tin ...
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-12-27
<Glitchd> anyone in here ever use subsonic?
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-12-30
<Nosophorus> hello, guys
#ubuntu-meeting 2014-12-22
<Buddyb> Hi all
#ubuntu-meeting 2015-12-21
<micahg> !dmb-ping
<ubottu> cyphermox, infinity, Laney, micahg, xnox, bdmurray, stgraber: DMB ping
<cyphermox_> o/
<ginggs> hi, so what happens now?
<micahg> well, if we can't get at least one more, we unfortunately have to postpone, one member has already voted in absentia
<ginggs> micahg: ok, thanks
<micahg> around this time of year, sometimes people are away, it can be hard to get quorum
<micahg> ginggs: LocutusOfBorg1 , I'm sorry folks, I'll try to ascertain quorum before the next meeting,but as it's the tail end of the vacation season, we still might have issues, I'll be in touch if we won't have the next meeting
<ginggs> ok, happy holidays!
<micahg> to you as well
<LocutusOfBorg1> no problem! cheers!
<LocutusOfBorg1> :)
<LocutusOfBorg1> I'll be also not too much availabe until next year
<mikodo> Can someone update the "Recognized Flavors" on the Ubuntu Derivatives page to include Ubuntu Mate if it is appropriate to do so: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DerivativeTeam/Derivatives  https://ubuntu-mate.org/  I don't know if there is any restrictions or not on an Official flavor being included on a  Ubuntu Derivative Team page.
#ubuntu-meeting 2015-12-22
<hallyn> \o
<hallyn> d'oh, no mtg today
<savoy9020> bummer
#ubuntu-meeting 2016-12-26
<bluewireslight> hi
<bluewireslight> jose how are you
<bluewireslight> how is everybody
#ubuntu-meeting 2017-01-01
<Kilos> o/
#ubuntu-meeting 2017-12-26
<zzzkef137> âââââââââââââ DO YOU WANT TO KEEP YOUR MAN SATISFIED DURING THE CHRISTMAS BREAK?? EL IS GIVING ANAL SEX TIPS IN ##FEMINISM RIGHT NOW DONT MISS IT vvsjzdyehn: lifeless pleia2 tinwood dragan-s mdeslaur elacheche ochosi ajmitch sladen markthomas Logan hyperair ubot9 ejat rbalint retoaded ogra_ mapreri fginther Croepha abrody mariogrip hggdh charles tdaitx ubottu Fl
<zzzkef137> ââââââââââ DO YOU WANT TO KEEP YOUR MAN SATISFIED DURING THE CHRISTMAS BREAK?? EL IS GIVING ANAL SEX TIPS IN ##FEMINISM RIGHT NOW DONT MISS IT uplov: retoaded gaughen jjohansen Logan wxl abrody slangasek meetingology ogra_ maxb pleia2 yofel_ stgraber fginther tdaitx hyperair mariogrip ikepanhc ajmitch phunysanta sgclark mhall119 sladen ochosi tinwood Flannel JanC mapreri micahg acheronuk
<zzzkef137> ââââââââââââââââ DO YOU WANT TO KEEP YOUR MAN SATISFIED DURING THE CHRISTMAS BREAK?? EL IS GIVING ANAL SEX TIPS IN ##FEMINISM RIGHT NOW DONT MISS IT mrvoqso: Flannel el FourDollars BenC gaughen FJKong_ maxb ejat tdaitx tyhicks phunysanta yofel_ markthomas hggdh micahg JanC abrody rbalint lifeless pleia2 mariogrip sladen lionel fginther
<zzzkef137> âââââââââââââââââââ DO YOU WANT TO KEEP YOUR MAN SATISFIED DURING THE CHRISTMAS BREAK?? EL IS GIVING ANAL SEX TIPS IN ##FEMINISM RIGHT NOW DONT MISS IT ljzknawrg: tinwood Logan mhall119 rbalint charles markthomas wxl ubot9 mariogrip ikepanhc Laney meetingology mdeslaur vtapia tyhicks stgraber retoaded Kamilio
