#ubuntu-doc 2005-09-26
<jsgotangco> hi all
<tritium> hi jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> arrghh another xorg update
<tritium> jsgotangco, Anne got started on some Tagalog translations today
<jsgotangco> tritium, ooohh let me check rosetta
<tritium> jsgotangco, it was all through launchpad, on aboutubuntu
<jsgotangco> ahh i see her name
<tritium> good
<tritium> It's just a start.  She'll keep at it
<jsgotangco> nice we now have only 12 todo
<tritium> :)
<jsgotangco> in hoary tagalog was the only asian language for ubuntu docs
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, can you post keycodes fro the custom toshiba stuff. My laptop doesn't generate ones taht can be read
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, ok will do it in a minute
<ajmitch> afternoon
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, I apparently have new and exiciting Toshiba BIOS crack that mjg59 is going to have fun pulling apart
<Burgundavia> and yes, I am working on the quicktour
<jsgotangco> where did you get that?
<Burgundavia> my A5 doesn't have the legacy Toshiba BIOS stuff apparently
<jsgotangco> interesting...
<Burgundavia> yes, mjg59 was cursing it last night
<jsgotangco> well our main work is not really breezy but dapper
<Burgundavia> for the corner stuff, ya
<jsgotangco> but if breezy will get fixed for me issues in ipw and alps, i have an almost perfect laptop
<Burgundavia> sleep works for me, and with the wired stuff working, that means all the major uses are covered
<jsgotangco> apparently some tosh sets using ipw have issues on reboot
<Burgundavia> ah, the other version of the A5 has intel wireless
<Burgundavia> it is probably worse off
<jsgotangco> you have a prism or atheros then?
<Burgundavia> atheros
<jsgotangco> lucky bastard
* Burgundavia just laughs
<jsgotangco> you got alps?
<Burgundavia> don;t think so
<jsgotangco> the latest kernel update made resume possible for me again, but has an issue on the pointing devices alps and accupoint
<jsgotangco> i have dual pointing devices
<Burgundavia> ah
<jsgotangco> even the killswitch works for me
<Burgundavia> mine is a serious budget business laptop
<jsgotangco> the M2 i am using is actually a high end business model
<jsgotangco> it helps to have nvidia
<jsgotangco> ahh yes
<Burgundavia> nice
<jsgotangco> i have one showstopper
<Burgundavia> robitaille got the student laptop
<jsgotangco> nv doesn't like external displays
<jsgotangco> it was passed to upstream
<Burgundavia> i810 doesn't really like some either
<jsgotangco> nv doesn't like anything at all
<jsgotangco> it useless for presentations
<jsgotangco> (unless i boot from the external resource)
<Burgundavia> I cannot get mine to come out of stretched screen
<Burgundavia> thus those 800x600 projectors don't like it
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, seen this post "Possible error in install manual on CD?" on -devel?
<jsgotangco> yes
<jsgotangco> but that's Kamion's doc
<jsgotangco> pulled from d-i
<Burgundavia> ah
<Burgundavia> figured
<jsgotangco> its just a bunch of strings changed from Debian to Canonical/Ubuntu and some more notes
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, you should try to talk about it in Montreal
<tritium> good night...
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, better upstream doc stuff?
<jsgotangco> not really, just coordinate on that certain doc
<Burgundavia> where is it?
<jsgotangco> its on the install cd
<Burgundavia> ah
<Burgundavia> how do you access it?
<Burgundavia> actually, it doesn't really matter that much for dapper
<Burgundavia> UbuntuExpress is going to take some of the problem away
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, you are more optimistic about the gnome doc team than I am
<jsgotangco> sure we can still make a difference
<Burgundavia> yes we can, but I doubt we can in the breezy cycle
<jsgotangco> of course
<jsgotangco> i didnt say we'll give it for breezy
<jsgotangco> probably for dapper
<Burgundavia> ya
<jsgotangco> at least people actually look at Yelp
<jsgotangco> brb have an appointment
<Burgundavia> Madpilot, ping
<Madpilot> Burgundavia: pong
<Burgundavia> Madpilot, gah, forgot you were degenerate and still used Hoary
<Burgundavia> never mind
<Madpilot> well, thanks...
* Burgundavia is playing with gobby
<Madpilot> I'm housesitting for Tony for two weeks; he's got Hoary on his Mac - I'll get a chance to play w/ PPC hardware a bit
<Burgundavia> tony has hoary?
<Burgundavia> got sleep working today
<Madpilot> he triple-boots, OS9, OSX (his main) and Ubuntu, on a G4
<Burgundavia> on my laptop that is
<ajmitch> Burgundavia: you like gobby then?
<Burgundavia> ajmitch, it looks cool, but it kind of needs another of person
<Burgundavia> someone who isn't behind a firewall
* Burgundavia struggles with the quicktour
<Madpilot> wasn't that supposed to be done, oh, about a week ago? ;)
<Burgundavia> yes
<Madpilot> well, I won't keep you from it, then
<Burgundavia> rofl
<Burgundavia> ok, this is cool
<Burgundavia> https://launchpad.net/sprints/
<Burgundavia> why is ther no https://launchpad.net/bathroombreaks/ <-- for planning kids (GWB's)  bathroom breaks
<Burgundavia> or GWB, should I say
<Burgundavia> salut rob^ 
<spayne> hi gang
<spayne> i'm here because i'd want to help out
<spayne> i've written quite a lot or 3rd party documentation for ubuntu
<spayne> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SebPayne
<spayne> but i'd like to take a more active role
<spayne> in the Docu Team
<spayne> what i would like to do is move all the documets listed on my wiki page to the Ubuntu Wiki
<spayne> and update them breezy
<spayne> how does that sound?
<mgalvin> go for it :)
<spayne> how can i get more involved in the team?
<spayne> i'm a wiki mean basically :-)
<spayne> but could do other stuff
<mgalvin> well, check this out first https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam
<mgalvin> there is some getting started stuff there
<mgalvin> and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WikiTeam
<spayne> is the Wiki Team the same as the Doc Team?
<mgalvin> simple answer, yes... the wiki team members are all here too
<spayne> i think i belong there
* spayne doubts he will be any good at DocBook and XML stuff
<mgalvin> all docs and wiki stuff gets discussed here and on the ubuntu-doc mailing list
<spayne> so, should i join #ubuntu-doc and announce myself?
<spayne> :-)
<mgalvin> sure, say hi, and start working on what you want to work on
<mgalvin> Burgundavia, is not around right now, but he would be a good person to talk to about the wiki
<mgalvin> he does a lot of wiki work
* spayne hopes Burgundavia comes along soon
<jbailey> Finally managing to sit down to this stuff.
<jbailey> Is the branch also being updated for kubuntu/edubuntu stuff, or just ubuntu stuff?
<spayne> hey jbailey
<jbailey> Heya spayne 
<spayne> jbailey: i made some progress on that ndiswrapper bug
<spayne> jbailey: it is a kernel problem with the USB stack
<jjesse> i'm making any changes to kubuntu docs in branch
<jbailey> jjesse: Cool, thanks.
<jjesse> so those changes should be updated for breezy, like the kquickguide, about-kubuntu and krelease notes
<jbailey> Yup, I'll make sure to do those.
<jbailey> We just hadn't talked about kubuntu before, and I realised that it should be done as well. =)
<jbailey> I should install kubuntu somewhere so I can see the results, I guess.
<jjesse> i think those 3 docs are the ones that will be the most done for breezy
<spayne> jbailey: you a kubuntu user?
<jbailey> spayne: Not at all. =)
<spayne> just a documenter
<spayne> does anyone have Burgundavia's email?
<spayne> ?
<spayne> mgalvin: ping
<mgalvin> spayne: pong
<spayne> mgalvin: does you have Burgundavia's email?
<mgalvin> he's Corey Burger, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CoreyBurger, corey.burger@gmail.com
<mgalvin> the pulsing buttons in breezy rock! :)
<spayne> yeh!
<mdke_> hey all
<mgalvin> hi mdke_
<spayne> yo Burgundavia
<Kinnison> hihi corey
<spayne> Burgundavia: ping
<Burgundavia> spayne, pong
<Burgundavia> salut Kinnison 
<spayne> Burgundavia: are you registered, can we msg?
<sivang> hey Kinnison 
<sivang> Kinnison: 'sup?
<Kinnison> hi sivang 
<Kinnison> not much
* Kinnison is working and readying to head to collect his boyfriend from the station
<sivang> Kinnison: you surely need a break :)
<sivang> Kinnison: tired?
<Kinnison> Yes, I do, and yes I am :-)
<sivang> Kinnison: then I'll say good night, maybe talk tommorow
* Kinnison grins
<Kinnison> I'm likely going to be back after I've collected rob
<sivang> Kinnison: ah more stuff to finish?
* sivang is listening to WOTW as always. the scene after the havoc, depressing something
<sivang> s/smoething/somewhat/
* Kinnison nods and heads out
<Kinnison> ciao
<sivang> Kinnison: ta
#ubuntu-doc 2005-09-27
<spayne> hey all
<mgalvin> hi spayne
<spayne> yo mgalvin
* spayne is working on his first corrections :-)
<spayne> can i ask your advice?
<mgalvin> sure
<spayne> on IPodHowto it only talks about gtkpod
<spayne> should i mention banshee in breezy
<spayne> which is a more elegant solution
<spayne> mgavlin:?
<spayne> mgavlin: any thoughts?
<spayne> mgalvin: also, do i need to test the instructions on hoary or is there no point?
<mgalvin> diff people will always want diff solutions, go ahead and mention banshee (its a nice app)
<spayne> it is a Cleanup doc
<spayne> and Burgvandia said to test it out
<mgalvin> spayne, bashee is not available in hoary iirc, just make sure you mention that banshee is only available in >= breezy
<spayne> i know
<spayne> i will def. mention that
<spayne> but do i need to install Hoary on an old machine to test things out
<spayne> but with such little time to Breezy, it is there any point
<mgalvin> i would say don't bother testing on hoary, besides if someone really wants it to work on hoary they are free to add it themselves
<spayne> thanks
* spayne thinks this is going to be fun on the Docu. Team :)
<mgalvin> np
<mgalvin> :)
<spayne> so i will change to doc for gtkpod and banshee but mention it has been breezified
<mgalvin> yea, i would say that is fine, hoary info can always be added later if needed
<spayne> mgalvin: when it the next meeting?
<mgalvin> spayne: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamMeetingAgenda
#ubuntu-doc 2005-09-28
<Madpilot> hi all
<jsgotangco> hi all
<Madpilot> hi jsgotangco
<ajmitch> hi
<Madpilot> how're the Breezy docs going?
<jsgotangco> most of them are already translated
<jsgotangco> today im going to email about the release notes
<jsgotangco> (it needs to be filled out by devels)
<Madpilot> cool. do we even have Klingon translations like the Launchpad promises? ;)
<jsgotangco> haha
<jsgotangco> can you speak Klingon or elmer fudd?
<jsgotangco> hehe
<Madpilot> we were poking thru the Ubuntu translations list here a while back, apparently Klingon really is on there
<Madpilot> (no, I don't speak it...)
<jsgotangco> heh
<jsgotangco> a lot of dialects in my country are also there
<Madpilot> that sounds more useful than Klingon. You're in the Phillipines, right?
<jsgotangco> yes
<Madpilot> how many dialects will have Ubuntu docs?
<jsgotangco> not sure really
<jsgotangco> hrmm
<jsgotangco> i haven't seen the status of lp
<jsgotangco> oh crappp...
<jsgotangco> i forgot
<jsgotangco> we have a meeting laters
<Madpilot> DocTeam? another 1400 Zulu one?
<jsgotangco> hell yeah
<jsgotangco> we should fix this soon
<Madpilot> hmm? fix what?
<Madpilot> aside from that fact that 1400Z is 0700 local here... :| I'm not a morning person at all
<jsgotangco> the meeting times
<jsgotangco> hmm new kernel update??
<ajmitch> jsgotangco: last one before release, too
<jsgotangco> oohh kernel freeze
<jsgotangco> this will probably fix the remaining acpi and alps issues that i have (hopefully)
<ajmitch> I should just do a remote kernel upgrade & reboot my laptop for it :)
<ajmitch> which is only connected via wireless
<jsgotangco> ajmitch, 7 out of 12 functions keys in my unit now work
<jsgotangco> which is very very good
<ajmitch> excellent :)
<jsgotangco> hmmm x died on my kernel update
<jsgotangco> ahhh
<jsgotangco> restricted modules
* Burgundavia would like to announce the string freeze of the Quicktour, baring grammar/spelling mistakes
<jsgotangco> nice
<jsgotangco> crap
<Burgundavia> ?
<jsgotangco> i have yet to co breezy branch
<Burgundavia> I checked into head
<jsgotangco> "Its been six long months. But Ubuntu is back, and better than ever."
* Burgundavia notes that the quicktour has felt like a long trek
<jsgotangco> isn't your opening line a bit...errmmm..short and flat?
<Burgundavia> it is done, dammit
<Burgundavia> the faqguide wasn't perfect, but hey, neither is the quicktour
<Burgundavia> I expect to get a lot of good feedback over the next little while
<Burgundavia> which I will incorporate into the dapper version
<jsgotangco> i like the last paragraph..
<Burgundavia> that one is mpt
<Burgundavia> now the screenshooting begins
* Burgundavia wonders if someone should have a polite word with ubuntuguide.org about using the copyrighted logo
<rob^> heh
<rob^> I thought people can use the logo
<rob^> thats what the web site says
<Madpilot> ubuntuguide.org seems to still be offline, anyway
<rob^> hey whats the go with branch?
<rob^> yay
<Burgundavia> rob^, yay?
<rob^> nah, I just realised why branch wasn't working for me
<Burgundavia> oh?
<rob^> trying to d/l the wrong thing
<rob^> is the whole 200mb in branch?
<Burgundavia> yes
* rob^ slaps head
<rob^> umm why?
<jsgotangco> err
<jsgotangco> don't get the whole branch
<jsgotangco> you can just pull whatever you need
<rob^> I don't want it ;)
* Burgundavia has muine up and running again
<rob^> did the change I made to the gfdl make it into branch already?
<Madpilot> the Ubuntu wiki used to run on Zwiki, right?
<Burgundavia> yes
<Madpilot> so this can be deleted now: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpPage
<Madpilot> "This is a quick introduction to using Zwiki"
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, I am likely to only make the first 30 minutes of the meeting, if that
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, 
<jsgotangco> np
<jsgotangco> rob^, moved to trunk?
<jsgotangco> you mean moved to branch :)
<jjesse> morning
<mgalvin> morning jjesse
<jjesse> is it morning for you mgalvin ?
<mgalvin> yea, a gray cloudy morning
<jjesse> bright and sunny morning for me
<sivang> morning all
<sivang> Madpilot: it did, it was horroble experience :-)
<jsgotangco> errr
<mgalvin> hey jsgotangco
<jsgotangco> hey
<jsgotangco> it seems no one is coming to the meeting
<jsgotangco> hrmmm
<mgalvin> is it now?
<jsgotangco> its always friday 14utc
<mgalvin> right, oops, i'll jump over there even though i've been out of the loop for a few weeks
<jsgotangco> jbailey: ping?
<jsgotangco> mdke: ping?
<jsgotangco> jjesse: ping?
<jsgotangco> rob^: ping?
<jsgotangco> ah fudge it seems no one is coming
<mdke> hi jsgotangco 
<mdke> just at work, doing a cheeky check of irc
<jbailey> jsgotangco: heya
<jsgotangco> ahhh
<jsgotangco> we just finished the meeting :)
<jbailey> Oh, whups!
<jbailey> It's friday, I forgot.
* jbailey really needs to make that alert bot.
<jbailey> I've been talking with one of the supybot authors about an iCal plugin to notify of meetings.
<mdke> cool idea
<jbailey> cool idea, no spare time.
<spayne> hi all
<jsgotangco> good night
<mdke> nite
<rwabel> strange wiki:
<rwabel> You didn't enter an email address in your profile. Select your name (UserPreferences) in the upper right corner and enter a valid email address. But I did in the past, and when I want to add it there is no filed for a password in UserPreferences
<rwabel> I menat field :-)
#ubuntu-doc 2005-09-29
<Burglaptop> anybody around to help generate the pots for the quicktour and get them up?
* Burglaptop grumbles about the removal of the gksu darken patch
<Burglaptop> mdke_, can you trigger a rebuild on the quicktour please?
<Madpilot> hi Burglaptop
<Burglaptop> salut Madpilot 
<Madpilot> you being a QuickTour pothead now? ;)
<Burglaptop> no idea how to create pots
<mdke_> Burgundavia, is it not being done daily?
<mdke_> hey ajmitch 
<mdke_> ajmitch, that ddclient package of yours is still running nicely on my machine
<ajmitch> ok
<ajmitch> I should clean it & get it into breezy then
<ajmitch> be sure to file a bug in malone so I don't forget :)
<mdke> ajmitch, ok, you remember all those problems with it?
<mdke> or did you fix em already?
<ajmitch> nope..
<mdke> ok, you want them in the bug? or separate bugs?
<ajmitch> in the bug will be fine
<mdke> k
<rwabel> strange wiki behaviour:
<rwabel> You didn't enter an email address in your profile. Select your name (UserPreferences) in the upper right corner and enter a valid email address. But I did in the past, and when I want to add it there is no field for a password in UserPreferences
<jamey3> I've just cleaned up an Ubuntu wiki page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WebBrowsingSlowIPv6IPv4
<jamey3> I couldn't find many guidelines for writing style and so on, so I just made it more concise and renamed the page for correctness.
<jamey3> Is that okay?
<jamey3> Is anyone around? :-)
<mdke> jamey3, hi, that sounds great, thanks!
<jamey3> mdke, no problem :)
<jamey3> i' m glad someone responded
<mdke> heh
<mdke> you have to hang around sometimes in here
<Burglaptop> mdke, so the quicktour crashes xml2po?
<mdke> yep
<Burglaptop> fun
<mdke> :)
<Burglaptop> it is the doc or is it he tool?
<mdke> no idea
<mdke> i can't see any way to debug it
<mdke> but that guy reproduced and filed a bug so it should get looked at
<mdke> Burglaptop, he's already done a patch for it :)
<mdke> what a man
<Burglaptop> mdke, yes, I saw that. Will pull it down when I have some free time
#ubuntu-doc 2005-09-30
* rob^ wonders if anyone knows the status of help.u.c yet
<robitaille> rob^,  your hoary presentation at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Presentations   is not accessible
<Burglaptop> hey jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> salut Burglaptop
<jsgotangco> how's it going?
<Madpilot> hi all
<Burglaptop> pretty good
<robitaille> jsgotangco,  can I assume the next docteam meeting is in 2 weeks at the usual time?
* robitaille wonders how long http://archive.ubuntu.com will be down; the question come up every 2 minutes on #ubuntu
<Burglaptop> robitaille, it is down?
<jsgotangco> robitaille: yes
<jsgotangco> (except no one from North America comes)
<jsgotangco> hehe
<jsgotangco> that was a joke
* Burglaptop missed the last doc meeting and was 45 minutes late for work, due to waking up late
<robitaille> Burglaptop,  been down for at least 30 minutes; so most apt-get/synaptic fail unless you are using some less-than-popular mirrors
<robitaille> jsgotangco,   14:00 UTC is a very bad time for me
<Burglaptop> jsgotangco, we switched to 14 for all meetings?
<jsgotangco> we should fix it again
<jsgotangco> robitaille: archives are down?
<robitaille> jsgotangco,  yes, for the last hour or so
<Burglaptop> jsgotangco, found someone on Ubuntu-user that is interesting in help us with the oem stuff
<jsgotangco> Burglaptop: link of email?
<robitaille> http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-users/2005-September/050110.html
<Burglaptop> robitaille, thanks
<jsgotangco> thanks robitaille
<Burglaptop> jsgotangco, continued in private conversation
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia: my problem with this OEM thing is that I cannot find it at all in the CD
<Burglaptop> jsgotangco, there is no current way to install it ala the server mode
<Burglaptop> I have already spoken to Kamion about this
<Burglaptop> he is going to fix the issue
<jsgotangco> no way?
<Burglaptop> you can seed it, but I have no idea how
<jsgotangco> that's the problem
<jsgotangco> its not like seeding is one task people do
<Burglaptop> yes
<Burglaptop> hopefully we will just be able to type "oem" at the installer prompt
<Burglaptop> night all
<jsgotangco> night
<jsgotangco> im going out first
<jsgotangco> brb
<mdke> morning
<Madpilot> hi mdke
<mdke> hello
<Madpilot> anyone know why this --> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KeepingUbuntuUpdated <-- is in CatCleanup? It's basic, but it seems complete to me
<Madpilot> at least the Hoary parts do, not sure about Breezy
<mdke> not sure, feel free to take it out if you thing it's ok
<Madpilot> will do... the GnomeBakerHowto page, OTOH, is a total mess...
<mdke> heh
<Madpilot> I could just redirect it to the K3BHowto... given that GnomeBaker will only burn coasters for me.. ;)
<Madpilot> hmm... that "lightbulb if your system needs a re-start" thing - from the Update page - is that a Breezy upgrade? I've never seen it in Hoary, AFAIK...
<mdke> that is in hoary i think
<mdke> it's from update-manager
<Madpilot> guess I've just never noticed it
* rob^ looks in
<mdke> hi rob^ !
<rob^> hi mdke 
<mdke> how's it going?
<rob^> good, yourself?
<mdke> yep
<rob^> hmm thats odd, my webserver is refusing connections
<rob^> ah ok, I was mucking around with my dns the other day and broke the www A record
<rob^> oops
<mdke> :)
<jsgotangco> rob^: ping?
<rob^> jsgotangco, pong
<rob^> hey
<rob^> whats up?
<jsgotangco> rob^: you didn't attend the 14:00 meeting again :P
<rob^> no, I was at work
<jsgotangco> ahhh
<rob^> they have me working shift again
<rob^> were there any issues that I needed to know about?
<jsgotangco> no nothing really
<jsgotangco> i see you've been dabbling with the release notes
<rob^> I had a read over the log before
<rob^> so, yeah
<rob^> I added a line for the faq guide/quick tour on the BreezyReleaseNotes page
<jsgotangco> brb
<spayne> lo all
<jsgotangco> hello bastard operator from hell
<Bambi_BOFH> lol. hi jsgotangco
<jsgotangco> what does hell bring us today?
<Bambi_BOFH> just checking the wiki from the title.... i was going to ask how to help... shouldnt have to ;)
<jsgotangco> ahh
<Bambi_BOFH> so hopefully not bringing any hell. :S
<Bambi_BOFH> so i have to learn subversion to be able to do stuff?
<jsgotangco> its not that difficult really
<Bambi_BOFH> mmm. they said that about linux ;)
<Bambi_BOFH> its time i learned anyway, so its not a big issue for me
<jsgotangco> if you download subversion, you might want to use a frontend
<jsgotangco> check out eSVN
<jsgotangco> Bambi_BOFH: most contributors who have svn accounts basically just check out, edit then commit and that's it
<jsgotangco> on esvn you just do an alt+U, edit something, save then commit
<Bambi_BOFH> jsgotangco: nah, i prefer a cli, its just the learning curve at furst 
<Bambi_BOFH> im used to ssh sesions, so i have to know such things :/
<jsgotangco> esvn is just a frontend, you can still use the commands
<jsgotangco> (its for being productive)
<Bambi_BOFH> :)
<Bambi_BOFH> ok. * checks description*
<Bambi_BOFH> cool. thanks. so what do i do to join? 
<Bambi_BOFH> dont answer... ilol ffind it in the wiki...
<Bambi_BOFH> just getting on the email list. should be good
<spayne> brb
<Bambi_BOFH> ok im on th elist... now i can work out how things work
<jsgotangco> im going to sleep
<jsgotangco> good night
<Bambi_BOFH> night
<Bambi_BOFH> :/
#ubuntu-doc 2005-10-01
<segfault> hi
<segfault> has anyone already generated any preview of translated faqguides?
<MadpilotPPC> hi all - housesitting for a Mac-using friend, hence the change of nick
<jsgotangco> hey guys
<jsgotangco> what's with the mad editing of RestrictedFormats?
<jsgotangco> heh
<MadpilotPPC> I gather there's been a lot of changes in the repos in the past week or so?
<MadpilotPPC> esp. hoary-extras and some of the quasi-legal stuff?
<ajmitch> hoary-extras aka just plain illegal? :)
<MadpilotPPC> something like that
<MadpilotPPC> hi Burglaptop 
<Burglaptop> MadpilotPPC, is that you at tony's?
<MadpilotPPC> right on both counts, Burglaptop 
<Burglaptop> hmm, totem is dying on me with a fresh install
<Burglaptop> jsgotangco, mdke are you guys seeing this as well with colony 5?
<jsgotangco> hmm
<jsgotangco> it does not on mine
<rob^> mad changes.. that would be my fault :)
<rob^> yes, lots of changes recently, also wanted to get it up to scratch before breezy
<rob^> grr at string freeze and nothing to do
<jsgotangco> :P
<jsgotangco> hack up a user guide or something
<jsgotangco> co the branch :P
<jsgotangco> hack up the scrollkeeper thing
<rob^> to do what?
<jsgotangco> fix the entries :P
<jsgotangco> it nees loads of love
<rob^> know of a good place to start?
<jsgotangco> sure
<jsgotangco> /usr/share/doc/gnome
<jsgotangco> /usr/share/omf
<rob^> I'm just checking out http://scrollkeeper.sourceforge.net/
<jsgotangco> its terribly outdated
<rob^> any better documentation on it?
<jsgotangco> System->Help->Other Documentation->Writing Scrollkeeper OMF Files
<rob^> wow yelp does something useful for a change :P
<jsgotangco> dude
* rob^ reads
<jsgotangco> you probably haven't seen half of what's registered in yelp
<jsgotangco> hehe
<rob^> anyone know whats happening with help.u.c at all?
<rob^> guess not..
<mdke> rob^, we have to wait for an email from henrik
<mdke> rob^, did you get anywhere with that xinclude legal stuff?
<rob^> ah crud.
<rob^> thats what I forgot about..
<rob^> let me take a look now
<mdke> ty
<mdke> gtg!
<rob^> mdke, looks like we are going to have some luck
<mdke> rob^, thanks for that, uploading new pot now :D
<Burglaptop> mdke, are you seeing crashes with totem on your laptop?
<mdke> i haven't used totem for a while Burglaptop 
<Kamping_Kaiser> woo. got my first ubuntu-doc list email
<mdke> welcome Kamping_Kaiser 
<Kamping_Kaiser> thanks ;) its exiting waiting for breezy to go stable. then ill start doing stuff i expect. (gives me time to learn what has to be done)
<mdke> yep that is helpful
<Burglaptop> mdke, when you upload a new pot, how does it migrate the old translations?>
<mdke> it merges them
<mdke> every string that doesn't change, keeps the old translation
<Burglaptop> ah
<Burglaptop> and whcih part does that?
<Burglaptop> rosetta
<Burglaptop> ?'
<mdke> yep
<mdke> using msgmerge
<Burglaptop> ah
<mdke> any luck on a pot for the quicktour?
<Burglaptop> haven't tried
<Burglaptop> due to no free time
<Burglaptop> but I have just discovered I have lots of that tonight and tomorrow. I will pull down that patch and try
<mdke> cool
<mdke> ok i'm off home
<mdke> later
<nictuku> hi. How can I find out how will the Gnome menus be translated in pt_BR in breezy? I mean, will it be "Applications", "Programas", "Aplicacoes"?
<Burglaptop> nictuku, that is an upstream issue
<nictuku> I see.
<Burglaptop> in any case, I really have no idea where that bug might be fixed
<Burglaptop> you might want to try the brazillian loco team list
<nictuku> I'm not reporting a bug, actually. I'm trying to translate the ubuntuguide and I need to use the proper word.. =] 
<Burglaptop> nictuku, the ubuntuguide or the faqguide?
<nictuku> sorry, faqguide
<nictuku> I'll see I can find someone with breezy installed.
<poningru> guys I was wondering if the faqguide could be put up on a web without the changelog
<mdke> poningru, when we release it, it will be
<segfault> mdke: ironically, i get segfaults while trying to generate the translated faqguide.
<segfault> :>
<mdke> heh
<mdke> segfault, xml2po -e -p pt_BR.po branches/breezy/generic/faqguide/C/faqguide.xml ?
<segfault> can you try to reproduce it?
<mdke> segfault, have you got an up to date po file?
<segfault> well, i wasn't using -e.
<mdke> you'll need -e
<segfault> not handy right now
<mdke> segfault, you'll need an up to date po file from rosetta
<mdke> and an up to date copy of our breezy branch
<segfault> yeah, i know.. i exported it a while ago
<segfault> and resynched with the breezy branch
<segfault> faqguide is one big file
<mdke> i've uploaded a few revisions to rosetta since the original, so that is why you need a recent po
<mdke> more recent than 4 hours ago
<segfault> heh
<segfault> lemme check it
<segfault> can you download and test it?
<mdke> not right now
<mdke> maybe another day
<mdke> but I am confident it will work
<segfault> np
<mdke> it didn't work for you?
<segfault> havent tested yet :P
<segfault> http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-doc-devel-list/2005-September/msg00016.html
<segfault> but i'm following this thread
<segfault> will try as soon as i get home
<mdke> heh
<mdke> that's my post
<segfault> i know :)
<mdke> ok good luck, feel free to email if there is a problem
<mdke> i will be quite busy tomorrow but I'll see what I can do
<mdke> gtg
<segfault> thanks, cya.
<mdke> anyone home?
* ajmitch is around
#ubuntu-doc 2005-10-02
<mdke> hey ajmitch 
<mdke> -> bed
<rob^> yep
<jjesse> evening
<rob^> hi
<jjesse> i hate dial up internet
<rob^> yep
<segfault> well
<segfault> just generated a preview of faqguide
<segfault> #!/bin/bash
<segfault> xml2po -e -p pt_BR.po faqguide.xml > faqguide.pt_BR.xml
<segfault> xsltproc -o faqguide.pt_BR.html ../../../libs/faqguide-html-cust.xsl faqguide.pt_BR.xml
<segfault> however, there were some broken image links, and just did a copy from the top dirs.
<segfault> http://www.ubuntubrasil.org/docs if anyone wants to see
<Burglaptop> segfault, can you look at a pot I generated to see if it is sane?
<jsgotangco> rob^, don't go there...
<jsgotangco> you'll mess up the whole scrollkeeper system
<jsgotangco> if the scrollkeeper db is messed up, you'll bork the whole gnome help system
<jsgotangco> not just gnome btw, but also kde
<jsgotangco> with khelpcenter
<jsgotangco> as khelpcenter also uses scrollkeeper
<jsgotangco> jbailey, ping?
<Burglaptop> jsgotangco, finally managed to get a pot generated. Can you check it for sanity?'
<jsgotangco> where did you upload it?
<jsgotangco> branch?
<jbailey> jsgotangco: pong
<Burglaptop> jsgotangco, to the list
<jsgotangco> jbailey, hi were you able to get around to registerring the doc in yelp? sabdfl was asking last night about it, since System->About ubuntu is still not available and bugged seb about it
<jbailey> i'm sort of beating on it now.
<jsgotangco> i pointed seb to the doc he might have done some stuff too
<jbailey> There's supposed to be a system->about Ubuntu?
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jbailey> Oh. =)
<jbailey> What should cause that to happen? =)
<jbailey> Is there a .desktop file or something?
<jsgotangco> i think its on seb's part for that..but the icon would be pointing to a yelp doc
<jsgotangco> so it should be properly registered with sk as well
<jsgotangco> i seem to hvae an issue with hibernate again
<jsgotangco> this time the screen flickers...
<jsgotangco> but it only happens if im on hibernate mode for a long time, probably an hour or so
<jbailey> hibernate or suspend?
<jsgotangco> hibernate
<jbailey> hibernate is suspend to disk, right?  It shouldn't care how long it's out for...
<jsgotangco> yes
<jsgotangco> that's the weirdness
<jsgotangco> suspend to ram is fine
<HrdwrBoB> that's odd
<HrdwrBoB> heh, hibernate doesn't work at all for me :)
<jsgotangco> im going to do a fresh install of colony5 to check again
<jsgotangco> jbailey, were you able to go around with BreezyReleaseNotes?
<jbailey> jsgotangco: go around?
<jbailey> HrdwrBoB: What problem do you have?
<jsgotangco> jbailey, i mean look at it
<jbailey> jsgotangco: I've added a couple of things to the wiki.
<jbailey> Sorry, I'm a bit tired, so I'm not cluing in as much as I should.
<jbailey> Is there more that I'm supposed to be doing with it? =)
<jsgotangco> well i wouldn't want to cram on it like a few days before release
<jbailey> 'kay.
<jbailey> What form should the release notes take do you think?
<jsgotangco> well in hoary we also shipped a release notes in docbook
<jsgotangco> but ideally we should only have one release notes for all
<jbailey> Hmm, having it appear in yelp I guess makes the most sense.
<jbailey> D    generic/faqguide/C/rescue-mode.xml
<jbailey> D    generic/faqguide/C/tips-and-tricks.xml
<jbailey> A    generic/faqguide/rosetta-faqguide.tar.gz
<jbailey> Are those all supposed to have been deleted in favour of a .tar.gz file?
<Burglaptop> jbailey, no, they were already merged in faqguide.xml
<Burglaptop> jbailey, the tar.gz is something else
<jbailey> Ah, okay. =)
<jsgotangco> hmmm i downloaded PC BSD last night and installed it...
<jsgotangco> they have a graphical installer to boot...
* Burglaptop watches jsgotangco get mesmerized by the graphical instlaler
<Burglaptop> to be honest a graphical installer is not all that it is cracked up to be
<Burglaptop> after all, you only use an installer once
<Burglaptop> and the desktop everyday, so why not spend that time polishing the desktop
<Burglaptop> ?
* Burglaptop has now beat his todo list down to 15 items
<jsgotangco> Burglaptop, a graphical installer still means something
<jsgotangco> for a BSD system that is something too
<Burglaptop> jsgotangco, when you run totem, are you see this? The error was 'BadAlloc (insufficient resources for operation)'.
<Burglaptop> amongst other error outputs
<jsgotangco> totem runs fine
<Burglaptop> hmm
<Burglaptop> do you have any codecs installed?
<jsgotangco> i dont use totem heh
<jbailey> jsgotangco: In the current package, I'm running make gdeb.
<jbailey> What's the right thing to people the scrollkeeper bits now?
<jsgotangco> err
<jsgotangco> make an omf file
<jsgotangco> and have it registered in the sk db
<jbailey> 'k.
<jbailey> So if I take the faqguide omf.
<jbailey> I'll chew it with dh_scrollkeeper.
<jbailey> Do I need to do anything to tell it additionally how to find itself in yelp?
<jbailey> (by section or whatnot?)
<jsgotangco> err
<jsgotangco> wait a bit
<jsgotangco>     <subject category="General|Linux|Distributions|Other"/>
<jsgotangco> on the omf file
<jsgotangco> http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2005-September/003433.html
<jbailey> Ah, nice.  That's from a couple days before I subscribed. =)
<jbailey> I wonder if the omf files in here are all correct.
<jbailey> We'll see soon enough. =)
<jsgotangco> im sure they aren't
<jsgotangco> i think i did that thing when we still had html
<rob^> ahha
<jbailey> I'm surprised translated documents get their own omf rather than a section in the doc.
<jsgotangco> ye
<jsgotangco> and each has its own series id
<rob^> so we are going to keep the yelp front page as is an put an entry where Ubuntu Quick Guide is now for the FAQ Guide and Quicktour?
<jsgotangco> rob^, yeah but compared to others like RH and CentOS, our Yelp is way much better
<rob^> I haven't even looked at those two in a long time
<rob^> does scrollkeeper detect what language you are using and swap in the appropriate translation link?
<jsgotangco> not sure really i think that is gnome at work
<jsgotangco> that's why we have %language parameters
<rob^> ah ok, in the omf
<rob^> has the latest pot been uploaded to rosetta yet?
<rob^> gee some of the translations still have a while to go, hopefully now that the pot is soughted out everything will start to happen 
<rob^> sorted*
<HrdwrBoB> jbailey: it doesn't work :)
<HrdwrBoB> I hibernate
<HrdwrBoB> and when it boots, it just boots normally
<jbailey> HrdwrBoB: ARe you on that system now?
<HrdwrBoB> it's sitting here, yes
<JonnyRo> Hello
<jbailey> What's the last line of /proc/swaps?
<HrdwrBoB> /dev/hda5                               partition       722884  99292   -1
<jbailey> Are you on i386 / amd64?
<HrdwrBoB> yeah i386
<HrdwrBoB> it's an X40
<jbailey> cat /sys/power/resume
<jbailey> I don't know what an X40 is.
<HrdwrBoB> IBM laptop
<HrdwrBoB> 3:5
<jbailey> When did you last try a suspend?
<jbailey> err. hibernate
<HrdwrBoB> hm.. a while
<HrdwrBoB> I'll give it a ry
<jbailey> 'cause everything there looks right. =)
<HrdwrBoB> heh, works now :)
<jbailey> Oh good. =)
<HrdwrBoB> it didn't work about a month or so (I think) ago
<HrdwrBoB> I just use suspend anyway, not much point in hibernating the laptop
<jbailey> Hey, it even seems to work.
<HrdwrBoB> just sans networking
<jbailey> Hmm?
<jbailey> Oh, I meant the docbook. = )
<jbailey> Entity errors galore.
<jbailey> But I can fix those tomorrow.
<HrdwrBoB> oh heh
<jsgotangco> have fun =)
<jbailey> jsgotangco: Always! =)
<jsgotangco> the svn structure isn't package friendly really
<jbailey> So quicktour stays as html.  Does it need to go into yelp as well with an omf file, or is doc-base good enough?
<jsgotangco> hmmm i can't say
<jbailey> No worries.
<jbailey> Someone will file a bug. =)
<jbailey> "Unofficial Ubuntu 5.10 Starter Guide"
<jbailey> Why is it Unofficial? =)
<Burglaptop> jbailey, that is from the ubuntuguide website
<Burglaptop> and a really really stupid bug
<jbailey> 'k =)
<Burglaptop> jbailey, lets talk about UBZ about making our archive package friendlyu
* jsgotangco filled with envy
<jbailey> Burglaptop: I may not be awake enough to have this conversation atm...
<Burglaptop> jbailey, UBZ, you, me, talking
<Burglaptop> jbailey, that is all you need to remember
<jsgotangco> lol
<jbailey> Ah. Is that first about supposed to be "at"?
<jsgotangco> jbailey's always around during BOFs anyways
<jbailey> jsgotangco: That because they schedule me for *every* *freaking* *one*
<jbailey> My schedule at UDU was insane.
<jsgotangco> ahh i thought you were just loving every bof during UDU
<jbailey> And I was in demand once people figured out that I don't mind taking notes.
<jsgotangco> lol
<jbailey> jsgotangco: Well, my technique is usually to take everything people say verbatum, and then reduce later. =)
<jsgotangco> ahh kernel update
<jsgotangco> brb reboot
<jbailey> Burglaptop: Actually, can you setup a bof for it?
<jbailey> List you as primary, me as secondary.
<ajmitch> jbailey: you expect to be at most BOFs for UBZ as well?
<jbailey> ajmitch: Well, I was hardly at "most bofs" since there were like 5 at once
<ajmitch> :)
<jbailey> But yes, I expect that my slate will be full.
<ajmitch> ok, scheduled for most 
<ajmitch> I'll probably have a nice easy time of things :)
<jbailey> ajmitch: The problem is that being support and distro means I have twice as many as I'd expect.
<jbailey> If I'm doing docteam stuff as well, that increases it.
<jbailey> And I might ask to go to bzr related bofs.
<ajmitch> you volunteer for far too much work
<ajmitch> I'll try & make it to docteam bofs, I think
<ajmitch> and I'll share my notes with you :)
<jbailey> Aww, thanks. =)
<jbailey> Hmm.
<jbailey> I should probably commit fixes to both branch and trunk.
<ajmitch> plug in a microphone into the laptop
<ajmitch> transcribe later
<jbailey> trunk can wait until I'm actually awake, though.
<jbailey> No, a microphone is a horrible idea.
<jbailey> 1) People clam up.
<jbailey> 2) Then you have to listen to it *twice*
<ajmitch> true
<ajmitch> otherwise you ahev to type/write fast to keep up
<ajmitch> s/ahev/have/
<ajmitch> my typing has gone downhill lately :)
<jbailey> Not generally a problem.
<jbailey> You need to IRC more. =)
<ajmitch> because I obviously don't spend enough time on irc?
<jbailey> Clearly. ;)
<Burglaptop> jbailey, can do
<ajmitch> I just have to hope you don't join any more channels, it makes it hard to stalk you with a 20 channel limit ;)
<jbailey> Burglaptop: Thanks.
<jbailey> ajmitch: Dude, I have 3 freenode accounts. =0
<jbailey> =)
<ajmitch> worrying
* ajmitch only has 1 he regularly uses
* Burglaptop has 2
<jbailey> I'm almost always in on 2 of them.
<ajmitch> I've only seen 2, I think
<jbailey> Thinking of which, anyone here know how to close a query window in irssi-text?
<jbailey> ajmitch: Right, the other one is a Canonical internal.
<ajmitch> makes sense
<Burglaptop> hmm, what happened to the spec template?
<jbailey> Yeah.  sometime I have to actually work and get things done =)
<jbailey> Burglaptop: It seemed fine this morning.
<jbailey> when I did LocalesThatDontSuck
<Burglaptop> where is it?
<ajmitch> most people seem to leave the status line in their specs very messy
<Burglaptop> that can get cleaned up as the bofs get more polished
<jbailey> Burglaptop: If you create a page that doesn't exist, doesn't it show up in the list of templates?
<ajmitch> I think they'd like that - makes it easier to search for edited specs, for example
<Burglaptop> yes it does
<Burglaptop> jsgotangco, should we bof SVNtoBaz
<jsgotangco> yes
<jsgotangco> but i'd rather go Bzr really
<ajmitch> jsgotangco: bzr is shaping up nicely, but it might delay migration a bit
<Burglaptop> whatever
<jbailey> bzr isn't useful yet atm.
<Burglaptop> we got a braindump spec for that yet?
<jbailey> Not for group develpoment like this.
<jsgotangco> no
<jbailey> Honestly, folks, stick with svn until bzr is ready.
<ajmitch> jbailey: maybe with pqm
<jsgotangco> Burglaptop, we need to dump what you're going to slave to during UBZ
<jbailey> ajmitch: Yeah.
<jbailey> ajmitch: Have you used pqm?
<jsgotangco> jbailey, sure our svn just needs cleanup really
<jbailey> Yup
<ajmitch> jbailey: nope
<ajmitch> jbailey: haven't had a chance to yet :)
<Burglaptop> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocsPackaging
<Burglaptop> jbailey, I have no idea what is needed for packaging, so add as needed
<jsgotangco> i thought specs are to be created thru lp?
<ajmitch> jsgotangco: if so, we haven't been told
<jsgotangco> our wiki is so slow atm
<Burglaptop> jsgotangco, I don;t think that part is fully hooked up right now
* ajmitch is *still* trying to save that spec page
<ajmitch> hopefully I don't conflict with anyone
<ajmitch> hm yes
<ajmitch> must protect jeff's hair :)
<jbailey> Hmm, so randomly portugues and tl.. Tagalog?
<jbailey> aren't coming up right.
<jbailey> All the other languages that already have omf files do.
<jbailey> I'll figure out how to make the rest of the omf files in the morning, I think.
<jsgotangco> tl doesn't??
<jbailey> No idea why.
<jbailey> The omf file looks right.
<jsgotangco> those are still the old docs right?
<jbailey> I think so, yeah.
<jsgotangco> or the translated ones from rosetta already
<jbailey> Old, by the looks of it.
<jbailey> But I can't read tagalog. =)
<jbailey> A bunch of the others that I can read appear to be old.
* Burglaptop just discovered that alt allows reordering of windows in xchat
<MadpilotPPC> Burglaptop, hold down alt and drag the tabs, or what?
<Burglaptop> alt and then click left and right arrow keys
<Burglaptop> discovered when I tried to move virtual desktops
<MadpilotPPC> sweet - thanks
<jbailey> After this, I still need to point firefox and epiphany at a document in ubuntu-docs, tie in kubuntu-docs, edubuntu-docs and do the release notes, rights?
<jbailey> Did I miss anything?
<jsgotangco> jbailey, my hero
<jbailey> \o/
<jbailey> Sorry for being slow on this, guys.
<jsgotangco> jbailey, its ok
<Burglaptop> jbailey, slow would be Oct 14th
<ajmitch> jbailey: don't worry, you're helping a lot more than I am :)
<jsgotangco> you were loaded
<Burglaptop> jsgotangco, umm...
<Burglaptop> jsgotangco, if you mean overloaded, that is fine. Loaded means drunk
<jsgotangco> jbailey's usually drunk when i catch him
<jbailey> Eh, that's because it's in the middle of the night on a weekend, usually.
<jsgotangco> heh
<jbailey> I try not to 1) Be awake when you are during the week. 2) Drink during the week.
<jbailey> Both are bad fu. =)
<jbailey> Anyone want to proof this package for me in case I've done something stupid?
<jsgotangco> feed me
<Burglaptop> jsgotangco, do you see evince on the list of applications to open something?
<Burglaptop> jsgotangco, need to confirm before I file a bug
<jsgotangco> a pdf?
<Burglaptop> no, right click on anything and choose "another application"
<jsgotangco> open with "Document Viewer" opens up Evince
<Burglaptop> look for evince or document viewer
<Burglaptop> I don't see either entry
<jsgotangco> right file a bug
<jbailey> ROAR I HATE THE NEW NANO
<jsgotangco> it sees my acrobat
<jbailey> jsgotangco: http://people.ubuntu.com/~jbailey/ubuntu-docs_5.10-2_all.deb
<jsgotangco> will this bork the current ubuntu-docs?
<jbailey> It replaces the current one.
<jbailey> So, I guess, yes, in a sense. =)
<jsgotangco> arghh
<jsgotangco> it'll make ubuntu-desktop uninstallable
<jbailey> Why is that bad?
<jbailey> Oh, it shouldn't make it uninstallable.
<jbailey> The package still exists.
<jsgotangco> no worries, this unit is meant to have borked stuff
<jbailey> Well, if you don't find any bugs in the next 5 minutes, I'm uploading it to main. =)
<jsgotangco> aha
<jsgotangco> hmm
<jsgotangco> where is the logo?
<jbailey> logo? =)
<jbailey> On what page? =)
<jsgotangco> About Ubuntu has a logo
<jsgotangco> why is it Unofficial?
<jbailey> I asked that earlier. =)
* Burglaptop shakes his fist at ajmitch for not filling out an edit summary
<jsgotangco> This document aims at answering questions that are asked frequently. It contains Wiki entries from the ubuntulinux.org web site, the mailing lists and all contribution that we received through the Ubuntu Bugzilla.
<jsgotangco> should be ubuntu.com
<jbailey> Mm.
<jbailey> Can that still be changed, even in stringfreeze?
<jsgotangco> you're just editing the omf file!
<jbailey> Eh?
<jbailey> I'm using the ones that are generally there.
<jbailey> Is that bad?
<jsgotangco> the omf is trivial an can be changed as needed
<jbailey> Okay.
<jsgotangco> but as i see it now, it works
<jsgotangco> =)
<jbailey> Lemme dig up that logo for you. =)
<jsgotangco> About Ubuntu
<jsgotangco>     Short description of the Hoary Ubuntu system
<jbailey>                 <imagedata fileref="../../images/&language;/UbuntuLogo.png" format="PNG"/>
<jbailey> Is the logo really *per language*?
<jsgotangco> Could be editged as "Short description of Ubuntu 5.10
<jsgotangco> if you change it to C it'll work
<jbailey> jsgotangco: Do you have a branch checkout handy?
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jsgotangco> i have branch
<jbailey> I've commited everything to date.
<jbailey> just svn up
<jsgotangco> ok let me check
<jbailey> Oh, I see.
<jsgotangco> i should be looking at?
<jbailey> It includes the "linux for human beings" text.
<jsgotangco> oh you want me to edit the omf
<jbailey> Just if you wanted to edit the text directly, I can update to it before uplodaing.
<jbailey> Do you midn?
<jbailey> Otherwise I 'll do it after I sort out the images.
<jsgotangco> I don't like "Short description"
<jsgotangco> hmmm
<ajmitch> Burglaptop: hm? :)
<ajmitch> Burglaptop: all I did was add my name to it, honest! :)
<Burglaptop> ajmitch, yes, and if you add an edit summary, I don't need to see the diff on our slow wiki to see that
<jsgotangco> jbailey, ok i've edited some of the omf files to have relevant descriptions just upload when you're free thanks
<jbailey> Am I allowed to alter the xml file so that the image points to the right place?
<ajmitch> jbailey: you currently keep the packaging completely separate?
<jbailey> ajmitch: No, not yet.
<jbailey> It's just a debian/ in the root of the tree.
<jsgotangco> jbailey, we'll hvae to do that with every translated doc for sure
<jbailey> jsgotangco: Right, but how do I make sure that whoever is merging the pofile doesn't clobber it?
<jbailey> jsgotangco: Got your updates, thanks.
<ajmitch> jbailey: not in svn?
<jsgotangco> no idea
<jbailey> ajmitch: This sentence no verb.
<jbailey> jsgotangco: a'ight.  I'll fix it for now and sort it out tomorrow. =)
<ajmitch> jbailey: the debian/ dir that you are using is not in the ubuntu-docs trunk? :)
<jbailey> ajmitch: Right, it's only on the branch atm.
<cyclotron6> can anyone help me with ndiswrapper issues
<jsgotangco> can't we just say Ubuntu 5.10 FAQ Guide instead of adding Unofficial??
<jsgotangco> cyclotron6, #ubuntu
<ajmitch> jbailey: ah, I don't have any branches checked out..
<jbailey> ajmitch: I'm doing the work there so that we can do more invasive things on the trunk if we feel like.
<cyclotron6> thx
<jbailey> ajmitch: https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/branches/breezy
<ajmitch> yep, thanks :)
<jbailey> ajmitch: Thinking of hair, most of the blue has fallen out now, but I'm planning on having it redone shortly efore ubz. =)
<ajmitch> heh
<jbailey> jsgotangco: I've uploaded a newer version of the apckage to the same location, with your fixes, with a logo.
<jsgotangco> okay
<jbailey> Lesse if I can reduce some of these entity errors.
<MadpilotPPC> Murphy is a bastard... I seem to get "authentication database is temporarily unavailable" from with wiki just when I find something that needs attention... ;)
<MadpilotPPC> *from the wiki, that is...
* MadpilotPPC blames the beer...
<ajmitch> MadpilotPPC: weekly launchpad update, I just saw ;)
<jbailey> Ah, I need to pull in libs/global.ent
<jsgotangco> yelp has a bug
<jsgotangco> hmmm
<jsgotangco> oh the entities...
<jbailey> More paths to tweak
<jbailey> Oh, I see.
<jbailey> Suck.
<jbailey> I need to be more awake to do this.
<jbailey> I'll upload what I have now.
<jbailey> Noone runs 'yelp' from the command line, so I'll have it fixed before it's seriously noticed.
<jbailey> But what I think I want to do is see whether or not it's possible when defining an external entity if it can be done according to a search path.
<jbailey> That way the source tree and the destination layout aren't so tightly bound.
<jbailey> In the meantime, any last objections before I bake this?>
<jsgotangco> eh???
<jsgotangco> let me chew on that first
<jbailey> s/bake/upload/
<jbailey> chew on what, sorry? =)
<jsgotangco> no one runs yelp on cli yes
<jsgotangco> you're not going to enable yelp to do that?
<Burglaptop> night all
<jbailey> What?  No, nothing so insane.
<jbailey> Just that it spews noise because of missing entities to the command line right now.
<jbailey> I'll fix that in the morning.
<jsgotangco> ahh
<jbailey> But I'm liable to do something really stupid right now. =)
<jsgotangco> let me check that as well
<jsgotangco> yuckkk
<jbailey> See? =)
<jsgotangco> i know what you mean now
<jbailey> Don't do that. =)
<jbailey> At least, not until tomorrow night. =)
<jsgotangco> ewwwwwww
<jsgotangco> faq guide is even worse
<jbailey> Yeah.
<jbailey> Both will be easy to solve.
<jbailey> But that'll start the rearrangement of the branch stuff.
<jsgotangco> ok
<jbailey> I think.
<jbailey> Dunno
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jbailey> Sleep soon.
<jbailey> May I upload?
<jsgotangco> the problem is that the entities themselves are horribly arranged
<jsgotangco> sure
<jsgotangco> like you said before not package friendly
<jbailey> Yup
<jbailey> If docbook has a search path concept, it'll work.
<jsgotangco> ok
<jsgotangco> tommorow then
<jsgotangco> thanks
<jbailey> Ahahah..  31 meg source package for a 109k .deb
<jbailey> Have to fix that, too. =)
<jsgotangco> the docbook utils?
<jbailey> jsgotangco: If you have  moment, can you please clean anything out of the branch that isn't documentation that we're shipping for breezy or my debian/ directory?
<jbailey> Just rm -rf it, then svn delete.
<jsgotangco> sure
<jbailey> Thanks.
<jsgotangco> thats a lot of docs for sure
<jbailey> We can keep them on the trunkfor now if we think they might be picked up.
<jbailey> But I'd like to tag and file away any docs that aren't going anywhere.
<jbailey> But they can just be straight deleted off of the branch.
<jsgotangco> yes trunk needs cleanup really but cleaning up the breezy branch is a good start then we merge
<ajmitch> anywhere I can actually help? :)
<jsgotangco> ajmitch, we can request elmo for an svn account
<jbailey> Uploaded, sleep time now.
<ajmitch> jsgotangco: accounts are controlled by canonical at the moment?
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jsgotangco> its their machine
<ajmitch> right
<ajmitch> but the MOTUs have a server now that we have control over
<ajmitch> I think there was some need for system access there though
<jsgotangco> it would be nice to have something like that
<ajmitch> so I can say that I have root on 1 canonical server ;)
<jsgotangco> :P
<sabdfl> hi all
<sabdfl> so, i'll be writing some documentation :-)
<sabdfl> what's the best format to use? docbook?
<sabdfl> and... is there a wysiwyg editor for it?
<ajmitch> I believe docbook is the way, and the only wysiwyg editor I've heard of is OOo :)
<ajmitch> good to have you writing docs :)
* ajmitch would tend towards emacs anyway
<Kaiser_eats> whats docbook ? a language or layout format?
<ajmitch> markup language, essentially
<sabdfl> ajmitch: OOo supports docbook?
<ajmitch> sabdfl: so I heard - I haven't used it though
<Kaiser_eats> oh thanks ajmitch. might have to leran it then
<ajmitch> it's at least in the 'save as' dialog
<sabdfl> hmm... ok, will try that. thanks guys
<ajmitch> jsgotangco: got logs for the channel?
<ajmitch> jsgotangco: btw andrewm is me, curse the 20 channel limit ;)
<jsgotangco> ubuntulog
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jsgotangco> what did he say
<ajmitch> 21:11 -!- sabdfl [n=mark@pdpc/supporter/silver/sabdfl]  has joined #ubuntu-doc
<ajmitch> 21:11 < sabdfl> hi all
<ajmitch> 21:11 < sabdfl> so, i'll be writing some documentation :-)
<ajmitch> 21:11 < sabdfl> what's the best format to use? docbook?
<ajmitch> 21:11 < sabdfl> and... is there a wysiwyg editor for it?
<ajmitch> I don't really know of a *good* wysiwyg editor
<jsgotangco> ahhh
<ajmitch> got suggestions?
<ajmitch> I see that both OOo & abiword support save as docbook
<jsgotangco> OOo2 can do docbook
<jsgotangco> haven't tried abiword
<ajmitch> yeah, I said that to sabdfl
<jsgotangco> and if the output is friendly to yelp
<ajmitch> just checked abiword now
<jsgotangco> im not in linux atm i can try it in the other laptop
<jsgotangco> wtf i just remembered im in kde
<jsgotangco> hehe
<ajmitch> hehe
<ajmitch> so much like windows XP.. ;)
<Kamping_Kaiser> lol
<jsgotangco> there's conglomerate but that's really spotty
<segfault> burgundavia: sorry, i was afk
<segfault> ops
<segfault> burglatop is gone.
<jsgotangco> brb
<Burglaptop> jdub, ping
<jdub> pong
<Burglaptop> what is the status of new artwork for Breezy?
<Burglaptop> can I start shooting screenshots or should I wait?
<Burglaptop> jdub, ^
<jdub> there'll be an upload of it tomorrow
<jdub> the only things likely to change are the background and splash
<jdub> so sshots will be mostly unaffected
<Burglaptop> jdub, ok, thanks for the info
<jbailey> Anyone know where ubuntu-faqguide comes from?
<Burglaptop> jbailey, say again?
<jbailey> I got a bug about a package called ubuntu-faqguide that I apparnetly need to conflict with.
<jbailey> I can't see where it comes from, though.
<jbailey> I don't see it in breezy or hoary.
<Burglaptop> hmm, no idea
<Burglaptop> can I see the bug?
<jbailey> NO MWAHAHAHAHAH
<jbailey> err
<jbailey> umm
<jbailey> 16465
* Burglaptop notes that the reporter is mdz and thus unlikely to be on crack
<jbailey> Right. =)
<Burglaptop> ubuntu-docs doesn't provide it
<jbailey> I don't have that on my systems here at all.
<Burglaptop> nor do I
<jbailey> So before I make an fool of myself asking my boss where it came from, I figured I'd ask here. =)
<Burglaptop> I suspect it might have been an old package that we did as a test
<jbailey> Ah, okay.
<jbailey> So something someone who updates daily would hit, but not a normal user.
<Burglaptop> it may have not even been uploaded
<Burglaptop> just spread through the doc list
<Burglaptop> I have found an old email from Enrico Zini from Feb
#ubuntu-doc 2006-09-25
<LaserJock> anybody around?
<nixternal> whats up
<LaserJock> this Russian thing
<nixternal> there are mad Russians wanting to crusht he doc team
<nixternal> haha
<LaserJock> on the ML
<nixternal> yes
<nixternal> i looked at this previously...im not 100% sure on how to fix the issue, but I can look at it a little more if need be
<nixternal> their issue is legit, as the bug has been posted for a while now
<LaserJock> right
<LaserJock> but mdke has been the only one building .pdfs
<LaserJock> and even if we *could* build them, I don't know that anyof us can update the website
<LaserJock> but I'm not sure
<nixternal> ahh, well we might be able to ping newz2000 and see if he can, and I thought imbrandon had some website admin credentials as well
<LaserJock> well, if we can figure out the fonts we could give it a shot
<nixternal> hmm..you know what i tried previously, was getting them to help me out..i went into the channel and asked if someone could build it local there so the fonts would work, and then send me the pdf file...they ignored me
<LaserJock> :/
<LaserJock> well, was nobody around?
<LaserJock> maybe you could reply to this guy on the list
<nixternal> they were around because they were talking to one another
<LaserJock> ah
<LaserJock> at least it shows we aren't ignoring him
<LaserJock> even if we can't get it done immediately
<nixternal> i set the importance on that bug to low, because it is...i understand them taking that the wrong way, because if you don't understand the bug system, then low is like hey, you don't think this bug is important
<LaserJock> well, I usually just use medium unless I  know it's wishlist so I don't get anybody mad at me ;-)
<LaserJock> does the HTML look ok?
<nixternal> im going to look now
<LaserJock> I don't even know exactly how to get there
<nixternal> title>  </title>
<nixternal> the xml is good
<nixternal> it validates..which i know..i did all of the translations for dapper last month
<nixternal> it looks like mdke is the only one who can
<nixternal> nixternal@MasTequila:~/Ubuntu/Documentation/repos/dapper/kubuntu$ make desktop-pdf-ru
<nixternal> xsltproc --xinclude -o ../build/pdf/kubuntu/ru/desktopguide.fo ../libs/pdf/ubuntu-pdf.xsl desktopguide/ru/desktopguide.xml
<nixternal> warning: failed to load external entity "/home/matt/tmp/docbook-xsl-snapshot/fo/docbook.xsl"
<nixternal> compilation error: file ../libs/pdf/ubuntu-pdf.xsl line 11 element import
<nixternal> xsl:import : unable to load /home/matt/tmp/docbook-xsl-snapshot/fo/docbook.xsl
<nixternal> make: *** [desktop-pdf-ru]  Error 5
<nixternal> xsl:import is looking for his home dir
<nixternal> ubuntu pdf make doesn't even work
<LaserJock> of course not ;-)
<LaserJock> ok, the HTML is fine on help.ubuntu.com
<LaserJock> so right now it's only the .pdfs that are messed up
<LaserJock> I really don't see that as a huge deal
<nixternal> ohh..ya, sorry, i read that wrong when you said that earlier
<nixternal> it isn't, hence low ;)
<LaserJock> their translation isn't wasted
<LaserJock> it's just not in *all* forms
<LaserJock> uggg
<LaserJock> nixternal: do you want to email them or shall I? :/
<nixternal> you can ;)
<LaserJock> darn
<nixternal> lol
<LaserJock> rock-paper-scissors?
<nixternal> if needbe, i will do it ;)
<nixternal> hahah
<nixternal> 1
<nixternal> 2
<nixternal> 3
<nixternal> rock
<LaserJock> doh
<nixternal> cheater
<LaserJock> I wasn't ready ;-)
<LaserJock> ok
<nixternal> 1
<nixternal> 2
<nixternal> 3
<nixternal> paper
<LaserJock> darn it
<nixternal> hahah
<LaserJock> ok
<LaserJock> now
<nixternal> 1
<nixternal> 2
<nixternal> 3
<LaserJock> rock
<nixternal> rock
<LaserJock> doh
<LaserJock> I'm doing it
<nixternal> [13:35:26]  <nixternal> rock
<nixternal> [13:35:35]  <LaserJock> rock
<nixternal> 9 seconds
<LaserJock> lag
<LaserJock> anyway
<LaserJock> do you think they'd be able to produce a .pdf?
<nixternal> nope
<nixternal> the makefile is broken
<LaserJock> ok
<nixternal> if that can get fixed, so we can reproduce a pdf, we are golden
<nixternal> <xsl:import href="/home/matt/tmp/docbook-xsl-snapshot/fo/docbook.xsl"/>
<nixternal> i don't think that should be in svn for a make
<nixternal> that is the libs/pdf/ubuntu-pdf.xsl file
<nixternal> that is why Kubuntu make keeps crashing out
<nixternal> i think <xsl:import href="/usr/share/xml/docbook/stylesheet/nwalsh/fo/docbook.xsl"/> is the correct way maybe
<nixternal> fixed ;)
<nixternal> nope
<nixternal> arg
<nixternal> i need FOP
<nixternal> wtheck is that at
<LaserJock> that's the java thing that turns it into pdf
<LaserJock> it's a little more complicated then that, but that's mostly it
<LaserJock> email sent
<nixternal> how do i get it so i can run this makefile then?
<LaserJock> google fop
<LaserJock> ;-)
* nixternal smacks LaserJock with a fop
<nixternal> im there
<nixternal> Apache FOP is the closest
<LaserJock> yep
<nixternal> otherwise the rest is Fraternal Order of Police
<LaserJock> it's non-free and very difficult to use
<nixternal> lovely
<LaserJock> but it's basically the only way to do it currently
<LaserJock> that's why only mdke was doing it
<LaserJock> I tried once
<nixternal> heh, then i shall try
<nixternal> it would be nice to package this ;)
<nixternal> hint hint
<nixternal> i see why the pdf is broke
<nixternal> WARNING: The contents of row 1 are taller than they should be (there is a block-progression-dimension or height constraint on the indicated row). Due to its contents the row grows to 16500 millipoints, but the row shouldn't get any taller than MinOptMax[min=opt=max=14000]  millipoints. (fo:table-row, location: 578/5796)
<LaserJock> nixternal: we can't package it, that's the problem
<nixternal> ya
<nixternal> well it is easy enough to install...i just extracted it, copied it to /opt and created a link in /usr/bin
<nixternal> works fine
<LaserJock> you can now make the pdfs?
<nixternal>  ya
<LaserJock> cool
<nixternal> but
<LaserJock> mdke is the man
<nixternal> that error is the reason the russian pdf is messed up
<nixternal> i get the same output as what is on the website
<LaserJock> ok, so can you try doing a russian one I guess and see if it, by some weirdness, works
<LaserJock> k
<nixternal> need to figure out how to expand the row contents
<LaserJock> nixternal: what do you think of my email?
<nixternal>  heh, i researched that error and guess what
<nixternal> matt east is the only one on the internet to post anything about it
* nixternal looks
<LaserJock> of course
<LaserJock> he's not a lazy guy
<LaserJock> I know for the Asian fonts he worked with the fop devs to fix things and get it to work
<nixternal> excellent email!
<LaserJock> ok
<LaserJock> nixternal: perhaps you could follow up your email with your findings (error and there is no reference online other than Matt's)
<nixternal> im working that through now
<nixternal> hiya jjesse
<jjesse> hiya nixternal
<jjesse> sorry on vacation this week, so don't know how much i'll be around :)
<LaserJock> shesh
* LaserJock is going to go on vacation too
<LaserJock> everybody's doing it, I might as well
<jjesse> grin 
<nixternal> not much going on except trying to get the russian pdf's to use cyrillic
<nixternal> this is starting to drive me nuts...i don't think it is fop either
#ubuntu-doc 2006-09-26
<nixternal> i am thinking that with the cyrillic fonts, the same things needs to be done for like the korean fonts..that is my opinion right now...im looking into seeing if i can created and embedded font file for fop now
<nixternal> this isn't fun ;)
<jjesse> good luck
<LaserJock> Burgundavia: ping?
<Burgundavia> LaserJock: pong
<LaserJock> Burgundavia: when will you be back to CA?
<Burgundavia> saturday the 30th
<LaserJock> Burgundavia: ok thanks
<Ubugtu> New bug: #62402 in baobab "[Edgy]  Disk Usage Analyzer (en-gb locale) is a mess" [Untriaged,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/62402
<nixternal> heh
<Madpilot> that's either an upstream issue, or a translation team issue, tbh
<nixternal> upstream
<nixternal> it is in gnomedocs
<nixternal> you got that, or you want me to get it?
<Madpilot> go ahead - was about to go afk for 10min
<nixternal> ok..im going to search gnome bugzilla first for it
<nixternal> can't do upstream, as the en_GB.po in the gnome cvs is updated and fixed...the en_GB.po in our gnome-utils is bogus
<Madpilot> meh
<Madpilot> would have been easier to blame upstream ;)
<nixternal> now...do i create a patch to fix this...or just note the fix is upstream ;)
<nixternal> actually..i can't do much with their po file
<nixternal> alrighty Madpilot, fix committed ;)
<Madpilot> nice
<nixternal> thank god for Laser_away's packaging guide ;)
<nixternal> that was my first ever dpatch!
<nixternal> i think
<nixternal> mdke must have auto-reply on his email set
<Madpilot> very cool. I plead utter ignorance of the whole field, myself.
<tonyyarusso> Do you guys know any more about the issue that cropped up on the mailing list re:russian docs?
<Madpilot> nothing that hasn't been on the list already
<Madpilot> ie that it seems more like a PDF generation issue than anything else
<dholbach> heya!
<dholbach> I'll upoad a new ubuntu-docs package with http://daniel.holba.ch/temp/ubuntu-doc.patch included
<dholbach> if somebody of you would be kind enough to check and push it into svn that'd be nice
<dholbach> (it replaces 6.06 with 6.10, etc in the browser start pages)
<bhuvan> dholbach: i'll check it
<dholbach> gracias
<bhuvan> dholbach: i see '6.10', but not '6.06 LTS'. is it intended?
<dholbach> yes
<bhuvan> ok
<dholbach> I uploaded it to edgy
<dholbach> not to dapper
<dholbach> and Edgy is neither 6.06, nor LTS
<bhuvan> thats true. i expected 6.10 LTS!
<bhuvan> fine anyway
<dholbach> no, 6.10 won't be Long Term Support
<dholbach> it will be only supported for 1,5 years
<bhuvan> got it
<dholbach> Thanks a lot.
<bhuvan> as i dont have a pre-commit message, i see, you made following changes. 1) update changelog 2) include new makefile target, common-binary-post-install-indep 3) change the version string in all language start files. anything else i missed?
<dholbach> include new Makefile target?
<dholbach> common-binary-post-install-indep?
* dholbach double checks
<dholbach> urg
<dholbach> ./rules is wrong
<dholbach> ./debian/rules is right
* dholbach fixes the patch
<bhuvan> ok
<dholbach> lalalalala
<bhuvan> dholbach: i would be glad if you can prepare this patch from inside top level dir. ie.. trunk
<bhuvan> do $ cd trunk && svn diff > ubuntu-doc.patch
<dholbach> doesn't    patch -p1 < patch-file    work?
<bhuvan> i didn't try yet, but wish to see if you can correct it. yeah, patch -p1 should work
<dholbach> but yeah, I can do that
<bhuvan> thank you
<dholbach> http://daniel.holba.ch/temp/ubuntu-docs.patch
* bhuvan visits the patch
<bhuvan> dholbach: i've applied the patch. would you mind if i add latest serverguide updates to changelog file?
<dholbach> to debian/changelog?
<bhuvan> yes
<dholbach> debian/changelog is problematic, because I already uploaded the fix
<dholbach> so if you change it now, the debian packaging and the svn contents will be out of sync
<bhuvan> fine np
<dholbach> ok cool
<dholbach> thanks for your help
* dholbach goes for lunch now
<bhuvan> np
<bhuvan> dholbach: committed in 3319. when you sync the two debian/changelog files, see if you mention "New server-guide section to explain PHP5 installation, configuration and testing"
<dholbach> bhuvan: sync how?
<dholbach> I don't understand
<bhuvan> later on when you cross-check each files and update the missing entries
<dholbach> the package is uploaded already
<dholbach> and I was not intending to change it (at the moment - maybe in another update in some days)
<bhuvan> np
<nixternal> LaserJock: if you couldn't tell, i didn't have any luck with the pdf stuff last night..i have fop running, and it is pretty cool actually...i just couldn't get the font embedding stuff hashed out correctly
<LaserJock> yep
<LaserJock> I imagine that was matt's problem
<nixternal> wheller, steven i believe?  i have seen his name on some of the documentation..he seems to be a dev or something along the lines with fop
<trappist> we have a fop server here
<trappist> written in ruby with some jruby stuff for the java side
<nixternal> really
<trappist> could probably share it
<nixternal> see if you can convert the russian destkop guide in dapper to pdf ;)
<nixternal> even if it is a temporary fix until we can do it "matt's" way
<trappist> worth a shot :)  would need some tweaking, though.  we send it one xml file and one xsl file and get back one pdf
<nixternal> gya
<nixternal> ya
* LaserJock gets out the glue stick
<nixternal> xsltproc --xinclude destkopguide.fo libs/pdf/ubuntu-pdf.xsl kubuntu/desktopguide/ru/desktopguide.xml
<nixternal> that creates the fo
<nixternal> then
<nixternal> fop destkopguide.fo desktopguide.pdf
<nixternal> and that would create the pdf..however, russian would show up with #### instead of text...which i believe to be a font issue within fop, since it enjoys the acrobat14 font stuff
<trappist> forgot about all that i18n stuff.
<trappist> I don't know that our fop server would do any better
<trappist> it *does* sound like a font issue though
<LaserJock> it is
<LaserJock> matt had the same problem with asian fonts
<nixternal> the korean fonts right/
<nixternal> batang and dotum
<LaserJock> and after much wrestling with fop and talking with fop devs he got it
<LaserJock> yeah
<trappist> our resident fopmaster (the guy who wrote the server) isn't here today, but I can prolly bounce it off him tomorrow
<nixternal> cool..that would rock..
<mdz> morning
<LaserJock> hi mdz 
<mdz> is someone working on bug 61825?  that's needed for beta
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 61825 in ubuntu-docs "Firefox start page still says '6.06 Dapper Drake'" [High,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/61825
<LaserJock> dholbach uploaded a fix today
<LaserJock> was in edgy-chages anyway
<mdz> ok, I haven't read edgy-changes yet today and the bug is still open
<LaserJock> mhm
<nixternal> ya, there should be a fix committed there ;)
<LaserJock> dholbach doesn't mention the bug in his changelog
<LaserJock> mdz: good to go ;-)
<mdz> oh, excellent, it's already published
<mdz> thanks
<theCore> LaserJock: are we in doc-freeze, yet?
<LaserJock> theCore: yep
#ubuntu-doc 2006-09-27
<MehdiHassanpour> .
<MehdiHassanpour> .
<Burgundavia> hey MehdiHassanpour
<Madpilot> MehdiHassanpour, ?
<MehdiHassanpour> nothing sorry ;)
#ubuntu-doc 2006-09-28
<LaserJock> soo
<LaserJock> I think edgy doc translation is ready to happen
<LaserJock> I wonder if we should send an email to ubuntu-translators
<Ubugtu> New bug: #62694 in ubuntu-doc "Incorrect link to Scribus" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/62694
<jjesse> nixternal: with beta release coming up soon, is there a beta page for kubuntu on the wiki?
<jjesse> nixternal: also who is maintaining EdgyReleaseNotes
<nixternal> yo yo
<jjesse> cause right now that page sucks
<nixternal> yes
<nixternal> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EdgyEft/Beta/Kubuntu
<nixternal> and the EdgyReleaseNotes I don't know
<jjesse> awesome i figured you were on top of it
<nixternal> hehe yes
<nixternal> i will finish it tonight
<nixternal> start and finish it actually
<jjesse> grin
<nixternal> i have a page locally at home started
<nixternal> there isn't much change from knot 3
<jjesse> figured you had something in the works :)
<nixternal> oem-config would have been, but it is currently broke
<jjesse> ah
<nixternal> artwork changed a little bit, other than that, everything is the same, oh, dual battery support with guidance now
<jjesse> shouldn't the EdgyReleaseNotes be done by the doc team? or does that fall under the marketing team?
<nixternal> i have no clue
<nixternal> i think anything "release" wise should be us
<jjesse> us being the doc team or marketing?
<nixternal> doc team
<jjesse> hmmm then we need to get that page fixed up
* nixternal thinks of himself as a doc team member over anything else ;)
<nixternal> i have seen tollef post to it recently as well
<nixternal> These are notes to be used in creating the release notes for EdgyEft.
<nixternal> interesting...today was the first i ever seen of this page
<nixternal> Seveas: ping?
<jjesse> me too
<nixternal> the oem-config is about the only thing on the page that would be good for release notes
<nixternal> the other stuff, 99% of the people who read them don't care to read about
<jjesse> agreed
<JoseStefan> what is the policy of wiki's duplicated in wiki.uc and help.uc ?
<JoseStefan> (no redirects)
<LaserJock> well
<LaserJock> if they are user documentation they should be on help.u.c
<LaserJock> with a redirect
<Madpilot> JoseStefan, move the contect to help.u.c/community, redirect the old wiki.u.c page
<Burgundavia> JoseStefan: redirect if a page is created accidentally on one that should be on the other
<LaserJock> yeah, what they said ;-)
<JoseStefan> in this case the wiki IS more current, so manual checking would be required :S
<JoseStefan> after checking the History, it seems the wiki has been moved back and forth, here are the relative links:
<JoseStefan> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelCustomBuild?action=info
<JoseStefan> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Kernel/Compile?action=info
<Madpilot> looks like Burgundavia moved it, then someone put "their" page back... gah
<Burgundavia> bugger
<Madpilot> Dog save us from 'helpful' people ;)
<tonyyarusso> Underdog!
<tonyyarusso> Here I come to save the day....
<tonyyarusso> Wait, wrong cartoon.
<tonyyarusso> Even better though.  I'll shut up now and let you get back to work.  :S
<JoseStefan> some changes have to be synced, as edits occured on both
<Seveas> nixternal, ?
<jdong> doc team, edgy beta release notes, OOO is 2.0.4RC2, not 2.0.3
<nixternal> jdong: it was 2.0.3 when the docs were completed ;)
<jdong> nixternal: hehe, I know :)
<nixternal> you can file a bug, but we are in a string freeze, so there is really nothing we can do, unless we get an exception
<jdong> who grants string freeze exceptions?
<jdong> because mdz's edgy release announcement directly contradicts the release notes... that just looks unprofessional :-/
<mdz> jdong: corrected in the wiki now
<Kamping_Kaiser> being purely numbers it would be fairly good ods of an exeption wouldnt there?
<nixternal> you can speak with him, as it would be mdz that would grant us permission to change it
<jdong> mdz: thanks
<nixternal> heh, didn't even see mdz in here ;)
<mdz> what's with the dpkg-reconfigure on https://help.ubuntu.com/community/EdgyUpgrades ?
<mdz> I'm removing it for now because it's a negative image for the beta
#ubuntu-doc 2006-09-29
<nixternal> alrighty...time to start planning documentation for the Ubuntu 7.04, The Fantastic Ferret
<Plug> nixternal: is that name announced?
<nixternal> Plug: sorry for the late answer, no, i just made that up ;)
<poningru> anyone know what the debian's working codename for firefox is?
<poningru> is it really iceweasel?
<Madpilot> "Copyfox" ;)
<jjesse> haven't heard
* poningru heards rumours about discussions on -private
<poningru> -s
<froud> What's the difference between Ubuntu-installer and Debian-installer? Sometimes I see the installer referenced as debian and othertimes ubuntu.
<Kamping_Kaiser> ubuntu uses debian-installer
<Kamping_Kaiser> if its referencing debian, i think thats a bug
* mdke looks desparingly at his nick highlight log
<trappist> mdke: wb :)
<mdke> thanks :)
<mdke> does anyone know if the pot templates are all up to date?
<LaserJock> mdke: I think so
<LaserJock> mdke: hello! welcome back!
<LaserJock> mdke: Things sure weren't the same without you :-)
<LaserJock> mdke: I pushed back the doc string freeze to the 21st as we needed more proofreading time, etc.
<LaserJock> mdke: we updated .pots
<LaserJock> got new packages uploaded
<LaserJock> and I got ahold of carlos and worked out the .pot naming stuff for Rossetta
<mdke> LaserJock: the pot naming stuff should already have been working fine as there had been uploads with pot files before I left... but sounds like everything is under control, nice work :)
<LaserJock> mdke: well, carlos said the pot naming on Rossetta was from dappers uploads
<LaserJock> I don't know
<LaserJock> I'm terrible with this stuff
<LaserJock> but we sort of managed
<LaserJock> we also managed to somewhat diffuse the russian bomb ;-)
<mdke> yeah, that's the only thread I've read so far, I'll reply to that
<mdke> the ubuntu desktop guide needs a new pot
<mdke> nice work for doing it with xml2po -k though
<LaserJock> anyway, the universe didn't explode
<mdke> :)
<mdke> I saw some updates to the dapper branch too
<LaserJock> ah, not sure what that was for, Kubuntu stuff?
<mdke> packaging guide translations?
<mdke> some packaging changes too
<mdke> i haven't looked at the commit logs though
<LaserJock> I've been pretty swamped with stuff too
* mdke nods
<mdke> I start a new job on Monday too :/
<LaserJock> really?
<LaserJock> what kind of job?
<mdke> lawyer job
<LaserJock> are you excited?
<mdke> LaserJock: well... I'm happy to have a job, not exactly excited
<mdke> I'll get into it I'm sure
<LaserJock> yep
<LaserJock> will it mean less Ubuntu time do you think?
<mdke> LaserJock: yes, I would think so
<mdke> also I'm going to be fairly busy with other stuff, but I'll certainly be around
<LaserJock> yes, I think it will be good for you
<LaserJock> this Ubuntu stuff is fun, but terribely addictive ;-)
<mdke> yes indeed.
<mdke> it was a tough wrench to carry on being a lawyer, but the right thing for me, I think
<LaserJock> yes, I've had to look at my carrer as a chemist as well
<mdke> LaserJock: what was the outcome?
<nixternal> wb mdke!
<mdke> nixternal: thanks
<hairytoes> Evening all.
<mdke> hi hairytoes 
<hairytoes> I wonder if someone can tell me if I've found an error in the documentation or if I'm just dumb...
<hairytoes> I was looking at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/RootSudo and something there doesn't make sense to me.
<mdke> go ahead
<hairytoes> Here's the section... I'm not clear what it's meant to say. Quote: You should always use gksudo or kdesu to run such programs, otherwise new login attempts may fail. If this happens and at login an error message reports: "Unable to read ICE authority file", log in using the failsafe terminal and execute the command below substituting user for your username.     rm /home/*/.{ICE,X}authority 
<hairytoes> I don't see 'user' anywhere in there. Am I missing something?
<LaserJock> mdke: I'm still wondering ;-)
<LaserJock> mdke: I'm going to finish my PhD for sure and I'd like to stay with chemistry, but I've been thinking a bit about scientific software development
<mdke> hairytoes: quite right. it should read "rm /home/user/.{ICE,X}authority
<mdke> I suppose
<nixternal> LaserJock: im going to be taking some scientific software courses here in teh next year...kind of excited truthfully about that
<LaserJock> cool
<mdke> hairytoes: you can correct it is you like
<mdke> is -> if
<hairytoes> ok.. will do. You may laugh if I screw it up - I don't do wikis :)
<mdke> you do now :)
<hairytoes> ok, done.
<LaserJock> nixternal: I've often thought about creating an opensource scientific software development community/platform "sciforge"
<hairytoes> I've been looking for an excuse to do some work on the docs. Looks like I just found one.
<mdke> yay
<nixternal> LaserJock: let me get some background first with these c++ scientific courses, and i will be more than happy to help you out ;)
<mdke> nixternal: was that you adding packaging guide translations?
<nixternal> nope
<mdke> (sorry, haven't had time to read commit mails still)
<mdke> ok, no worries
<nixternal> hehe, no problem
<mdke> damn, can't find the commit message anyhow
* mdke goes to bed
<nixternal> g'nite mdke!
#ubuntu-doc 2006-09-30
<theCore> LaserJock, would it be a good idea to explain launchpad in the PG? 
<LaserJock> well
<LaserJock> I do
<LaserJock> but launchpad seems to change too much
<theCore> yeah
<theCore> explaining branches could be good
<theCore> at least, the whole package tracking mechanism 
<theCore> I doubt it will change that much
<LaserJock> yeah
<LaserJock> I have a few mentions of were bugs are
<LaserJock> in the Bugs chapter
<LaserJock> but having links to package pages launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/<packagename>
<LaserJock> would be helpful
<theCore> I will update the wiki page with what I would like to see
<theCore> hmm... 
<theCore> there's a lot there
<theCore> LaserJock, maybe it would be better if you could clean it up a little bit
<LaserJock> yeah, I managed to do a couple things on the list
<LaserJock> but I didn't have much time
<theCore> I don't know what it been done since the last time I checked it
<theCore> LaserJock, is there a plan to make a Developer Guide?
<LaserJock> yep
<LaserJock> I need a little more time
<LaserJock> and I"m waiting on Debian to convert to docbook
<theCore> how it's different from the PG?
<LaserJock> it's about processes and policy
<LaserJock> not how to package
<LaserJock> take a look at the Debian Developer's Reference to see
<theCore> oh, I remember know
<theCore> it was someone from Debian that was supposed to work on it, isn't it?
<LaserJock> well, originally Ian Jackson was working on it
<theCore> what happened?
<LaserJock> he is the firefox maintainer amongst other things
<theCore> ah, I remember now where I heard that name before
<theCore> he wrote the current implementation of dpkg
<LaserJock> yep
<yaniv> can anyone help? I translated aboutubuntu into Hebrew back in Dapper, in the edgy section of Rosetta the translation appears fine, and yet when I chose "about ubuntu" from the system menu (i'm running current edgy), I get it in English. is this a known bug?
<yaniv> i.e. I translated *most* of it
<yaniv> seems to be not activity right now. I'll try email.
<jjesse> welcome back from holiday mdke_
<theCore> I think I will give some love to the docs
<jjesse> oooo
<jjesse> what kind of love?
<theCore> I will work on the PG
<LaserJock> good
<theCore> LaserJock, does the status is up-to-date? http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/status/pg-report.html
<LaserJock> no
<theCore> LaserJock, does the status is up-to-date? http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/status/pg-report.html
<jjesse> theCore: I doubt it
<LaserJock> it's not
<LaserJock> the status pages haven't been updated since dapper
<theCore> ok
<theCore> I thought so
<theCore> LaserJock, we should define the terms package, source, program, tarball, etc 
<theCore> package is the most troublesome
<theCore> LaserJock, we should define the terms package, source, program, tarball, etc 
<theCore> package is the most troublesome
<theCore> because it can refers to two things
#ubuntu-doc 2006-10-01
<LjL> ompaul: only problem is i'm not quite familiar with the ubuntu wiki's syntax -- much more so with wikipedia's, but anyway
<ompaul> I am about to hit the sack I can't keep my eyes open
<ompaul> LjL, just a sec 
<ompaul> going to issue a call to arms - people here can assist you if you need it :)0
<LjL> ok =)
<LjL> (though it's 3am even here so i'm not sure how long i'll resist myself ;)
<ompaul> if anyone has an interest in winmodems do they want to have a shot at this https://help.ubuntu.com/community/DialupModemHowto
<ompaul> it needs some serious love
<ompaul> LjL, I'll do something to it in about 10 hours if no one grabs it in the mean time 
* ompaul closes eyes and comms :)
<LjL> well, we'll see -- i think i'll have plenty of time tomorrow
<LjL> night ompaul 
<ompaul> cheers
<nixternal> rm -rf DialupModemHowto
<nixternal> ;)
<nixternal> winmodem at that, yuck
<LjL> yeah, needs a rewrite definitely...
<LjL> nixternal: by the way, i think you're the one mentioned as "the mantainer will be notified" on the Checkinstall wiki page... if so sorry, i think you've got like ten mails today, after i added a warning and then everyone in #ubuntu-offtopic gave corrections at a pace of one per minute ;)
<nixternal> hehe
<nixternal> no problem, i get all wiki edit messages, so i can make sure no one is sabotaging the wiki
<nixternal> plus, i like to see the content that is getting posted as well
<LaserJock> hi Madpilot 
<Madpilot> hi LaserJock 
<amachu> hi every one
<Burgundavia> hey amachu
<amachu> this is sriamadas alias amachu..
<amachu> contact person for Ubuntu Tamil Team
<amachu> glad to join you all in IRC
<amachu> :-)
<amachu> Burgundavia: hi
<Burgundavia> mdke_: the help wiki did lock itself to everybody a few days back
<mdke_> Burgundavia: ah, lp problems?
<Burgundavia> mdke_: don't think so, as I was logged in and edit on the regular was working
<mdke_> back to normal now?
<Burgundavia> yep
#ubuntu-doc 2007-09-25
<ubotu> New bug: #144780 in ubuntu-docs (main) ""Connecting to the Internet" link on front page doesn't work" [Undecided,New]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/144780
<ubotu> New bug: #144783 in ubuntu-docs (main) "Intro paragraph in "Advanced topics" section doesn't really help" [Undecided,New]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/144783
<ubotu> New bug: #144787 in ubuntu-docs (main) "Initial help window mentions "Help Center" three times" [Undecided,New]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/144787
<ubotu> New bug: #144788 in ubuntu-docs (main) ""Installing server applications" link doesn't work" [Undecided,New]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/144788
<ubotu> New bug: #144792 in ubuntu-docs (main) ""Writing your own programs" etc links don't work" [Undecided,New]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/144792
<ubotu> New bug: #144795 in ubuntu-docs (main) ""Introduction" to "If you've been using Windows" isn't important enough to be its own page" [Undecided,New]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/144795
<ubotu> New bug: #144796 in ubuntu-docs (main) ""Glossary of Windows terms" link doesn't work" [Undecided,New]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/144796
<ubotu> New bug: #144804 in ubuntu-docs (main) "Subsection links on "Printing" page don't work" [Undecided,New]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/144804
<mpt> What's the matter, ubotu, run out of energy?
<ubotu> New bug: #144811 in ubuntu-docs (main) "All subheadings begin with ". " (a period and a space)" [Undecided,New]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/144811
<jjesse> mpt: seems he's running slow today
<ubotu> New bug: #144812 in ubuntu-docs (main) "All subsections have three close links to the same parent page" [Undecided,New]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/144812
<ubotu> New bug: #144928 in ubuntu-docs (main) "Small typo in internet/C/web-apps.xml" [Undecided,New]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/144928
#ubuntu-doc 2007-09-26
<ubotu> New bug: #145055 in ubuntu-docs (main) "Group descriptions missing" [Undecided,New]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/145055
<kyleN> Hi, is there anyone here who is knowledgeable about the underlying software used on Ubuntu for Help: Yelp, scrollkeeper, etc?
<kyleN> I am thinking about Help requirements for Ubuntu Mobile and would like to chat a bit with anyone who knows something about how Ubuntu Gutsy help software works
<jjesse> kyleN: i think mdke knows the most, but he is on vacation this week
<kyleN> jjesse, thanks. Is that Matthew East?
<jjesse> kyleN: yeah that is
<kyleN> Is there anyone else you know of that I could ping?
<jjesse> kyleN: nixternal might also be able to help out?
<kyleN> nixternal, are you here?
<kyleN> Thanks again jjesse. Do you happen to know what happens under the covers?
<jjesse> kyleN: if i recall correctly yelp converts the xml on the fly to html?  but not qwuite sure
<kyleN> Yes, that is so. I do know that Yelp takes docbook xml and converts is with xslt into html for display
<kyleN> One question I have in that area is how does Yelp know which xslt stylesheet to use for conversion?
<jjesse> unfortnately i know very little about yelp, i do a lot w/ kubuntu docs which uses KHelpCenter
<kyleN> Does KHelpCenter support context sensitive help?
<jjesse> nixterna1_: PING
<kyleN> hello nixternal, may I ask you a couple questions?
<kyleN> jjesse, do you know whether KHelpCenter provides context sensitive help?
<jjesse> i think it does
<kyleN> jjesse, could you please (I hate to ask) check? Yelp does not, and that's a real problem. I'll owe you one!
<jjesse> kyleN: yeah i can check, migth be a bit as i'm at work right now :)
<kyleN> can you email me: kyle@pepper.com? I would really appreciate it
<jjesse> sure will do
<kyleN> nixternal does not seem to be solidly here ;)
<jjesse> yeah, but i'll follow up w/ him and verify
<jjesse> made a note to email you
<kyleN> thx a lot
<jjesse> np
<kyleN> there are quite a few pieces to the help system on ubuntu, including:
<kyleN> scrollkeeper to maintain a list of currently installed docs
<kyleN> yelp to display the docs
<kyleN> translation, i18n
<kyleN> etc.
<kyleN> nixternal, are you here?
<jjesse> nixternal: you around or still having internet connection issues?
<kyleN> jjesse, are kbuntu docs written in docbook?
<jjesse> kyleN: yes, we use the same toolchain as ubuntu-docs
<jjesse> so we write in docbook and the build into html
<jjesse> and apply the stylesheet there
<kyleN> do you create the html at build time or is it done on the fly at runtime?
<jjesse> at build time
<kyleN> that makes sense, much faster for the user
<jjesse> khelpcenter can't or doesn't build on the fly
<kyleN> I see
<kyleN> I think ubuntu transforms docbook to html on the fly. Does anyone know why this was the approach taken with Ubuntu?
<jjesse> as far as i know that is how yelp works?
<kyleN> I think Yelp could display html without doing the transform... I'll check on that
<jjesse> kyleN: i feel bad that i can't you better
<kyleN> That's OK - I appreciate the help you are giving. With respect to Ubuntu mobile, the lack of context sensitive help from Yelp makes it a bad choice because the target audience is the "soccer mom/dad"
<kyleN> who doesn't want to read a book, just get help when they need it
<jjesse> totally agreed
<kyleN> So if KHelpCenter could do that, it would be the better choice, I think
<jjesse> i wonder if there would then be too many dependices by adding khelpcenter?
<kyleN> You mean too many other packages it requires?
<jjesse> yeah thats what i meant
<kyleN> is khelpcenter somehow linked in many ways to the kde desktop, so it couldn't be used in a different context?
<kyleN> Ubuntu mobile is not a KDE desktop, so maybe it's not even a possible choice...
<kyleN> jjesse, when you say you use the same toolchain, could you expand a bit on what you mean by that?
<jjesse> well we create the docs w/ docbook, use the same subversion repository, use the same validation tools and use the same tools to create the .pot files
<kyleN> I see
<kyleN> perhaps you can help me understand the .pot files.
<jjesse> i can try
<kyleN> I imagine when the doc is finished, you run a tool and it outputs the .pot file
<jjesse> the .pot files are what are uploaded to rossetta to get translated
<kyleN> this is somehoe loaded to rosetta
<kyleN> do you know how the .pot file is created?
<kyleN> and is the .pot file what is sometimes called the "template"?
<jjesse> as far as i know that is correct the .pot file is the template
<kyleN> in a running system, one has .po files, I guess
<kyleN> these are the translations
<jjesse> i assume that is correct
<kyleN> I think I came across a script somewhere once that creates the .pot file. Maybe it was called "translate.sh". I am goinig to search for that now
<kyleN> yes, it is in ubuntu_docs/trunk/ubuntu
<ubotu> New bug: #145375 in ubuntu-docs (main) "The requested page was not found in the document /usr/share/gnome/help/gnome-doc-make/C/gnome-doc-make.xml." [Undecided,New]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/145375
#ubuntu-doc 2007-09-27
<ubotu> New bug: #145673 in ubuntu-docs (main) "Ubuntu needs Guided Help" [Undecided,New]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/145673
<ubotu> New bug: #145774 in ubuntu-docs (main) "ubuntu-docs: broken links" [Undecided,New]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/145774
#ubuntu-doc 2007-09-28
<ubotu> New bug: #146368 in ubuntu-doc "undefined xml entities" [Undecided,New]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/146368
<nealmcb> We encourage bittorrent downloads in the beta release email, but don't make them as easy as we could.   http://us.releases.ubuntu.com/7.10/ points to a missing page: http://bittorrent.com/introduction.html   instead you get ads for movies..... the wikipedia page  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BitTorrent  is probably too confusing, but may have a better link.  The beta release page also hides all the torrent files way down among the mind-numbing list.  
<nealmcb> argh - bittorrent.com now spouting PR like claims to the "genuine" BitTorrent client
<nealmcb> (trying again): We encourage bittorrent downloads in the beta release email, but don't make them as easy as we could.   http://us.releases.ubuntu.com/7.10/ points to a missing page: http://bittorrent.com/introduction.html   instead you get ads for movies..... the wikipedia page  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BitTorrent  is probably too confusing, but may have a better link.  The beta release page also hides all the torrent files way down among the mind
#ubuntu-doc 2007-09-29
<nealmcb> nixternal: ^
<nixternal> for that, I think you would have to file a bug against the ubuntu website
<nixternal> oh, definitely need to file a bug against the website, especially with that link
<nealmcb> nixternal: thanks
<nixternal> no problem
<nixternal> good find btw
<nealmcb> :-)
<nealmcb> wow - a different project for each language version of the ubuntu website
<nealmcb> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-website/+bug/146514
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 146514 in ubuntu-website "releases page points to bad bittorrent link" [Undecided,New] 
<ubotu> New bug: #146794 in ubuntu-docs (main) "Democracy TV renamed to Miro" [Undecided,New]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/146794
* mdke hellos
<mdke> my word that's a lot of email
<ubotu> New bug: #146832 in ubuntu-docs (main) "ubuntu-docs: undefined "&rsquo;" in /usr/share/omf/windows/windows-C.omf" [Undecided,New]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/146832
<nixternal> howdy mdke
<mdke> hiya nixternal
<mdke> ah, svn is cranky again
<nixternal> oh that is always fun
<nixternal> especially awaiting to upload translations :)
<mdke> I suspect that is the reason ^
<mdke> it's timing out waiting for the CIA server
<nixternal> ahhh
<mdke> bbl
<Matthias> Hi, has anyone managed to export the wiki to docbook using MoinMoin
<mdke> Matthias: I assume you mean a wiki page rather than the wiki. The tools are very raw at the moment
<Matthias> yeah, I also tried the latest moin-docbook branch, but gave up now
<Matthias> do you know if there is a html -> chm compiler for Linux?
<mdke> Matthias: it works for simple articles, with a bit of tweaking
<mdke> Matthias: I don't know what chm is
<Matthias> chm is Windows Compiled HTML Help (the file-format is reverse engineered, many viewer apps available)
<mdke> no idea
<Matthias> I tried to convert our Ubuntu-DE doc http://wiki.ubuntuusers.de/ but linking between docbook pages does not work and our macros have some hard coded HTML :/
<Matthias> currently we release the Wikis contents together with a MoinMoin DesktopEdition, not the ideal solution.
<mdke> Matthias: don't you use the frozen wiki tool?
<Matthias> tell me more :)
<mdke> one of the german team guys wrote a tool for exporting moin wikis to offline html  pages
<mdke> see https://help.ubuntu.com/community/FrozenWiki - the tool is a bit out of date and maybe misses features but it is pretty neat
<Matthias> right, the Info seems out of date, but now I know that Armin (mitsuhiko on Freenode) already worked on this, I am going to contact him.
<Matthias> thanks :)
<mdke> if you get anywhere, let us know; it would be nice to be able to implement it on the english wiki
<Matthias> jup
<Matthias> same on the other side, if you come up with a good idea, don't bother contacting us at #ubuntuusers-wiki
<ubotu> New bug: #146895 in ubuntu-doc "HowToMD5SUM should say how to check a CD's integrity directly" [Undecided,New]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/146895
#ubuntu-doc 2007-09-30
<mdke> morning all
<CIA-18> Ubuntu Documentation: mdke gutsy * r4403 / (3 files in 3 dirs): server material needs an omf file (LP: 144788)
<mdke> geez we havea lot of bugs
<mdke> hi dsas
<dsas> hi mdke
<mdke> dsas: saw your email asking for svn access; I'm perfectly happy with arranging that, your patches are always good. Do you think you will be contributing regularly in the future
<mdke> ?
<dsas> mdke: I hope so, I was meaning to do more this cycle but never quite found the time to do *anything* Ubuntu related up until just recently. Honestly I don't plan to write huge swathes of documentation, but I'm quite happy being a janitor.
<mdke> cool
<dsas> mdke: If there's a plan to move to bzr I'm quite happy to wait until that happens.
<mdke> dsas: ok, well since we're in string freeze now it's likely that we will address the bzr issue before any serious work begins on material for the next release, I guess
<dsas> ok cool :), is there anything needed to be done on the "moving to bzr" front?
<mdke> not for the moment, I suspect
<mdke> I'm not going to think about it until I've been able to catch up on bugs and sort translations out for gutsy
<dsas> ok, I suspected as much. Do the translations still take lots of work?
<mdke> I haven't tried yet, but I bet they will, yeah
<mdke> there is no real way around it, tbh
<LaserJock> mdke: is the Edubuntu Handbook in the yelp frontpage like in Feisty? and if not (I don't see it) could you update the yelp layout?
<LaserJock> anybody notice that the yelp search gives a lot of false results?
<nixternal> well hello there mr. jordan!
<LaserJock> hi nixternal
<LaserJock> I did a search for Edubuntu and got hits on Gnumeric and User Switcher Applet
<oreomasta> EclipseIDE (http://tinyurl.com/2szdpk) was listed in CategoryCleanup and I've been working on some organization edits after reading through the WikiGuide standards of documentaion. I'm wondering if the more experienced wiki editors in here see any glaring problems that I could work on to get it out of Category Cleanup.
<oreomasta> Here's the diff of when it was tagged with category cleanup and now: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/EclipseIDE?action=diff&rev2=31&rev1=25
<mdke> LaserJock: did we do that in feisty? wow. I can't remember how...
<LaserJock> yeah
<mdke> LaserJock: as for search, I've seen plenty of bugs about search, no idea what is wrong with it
<LaserJock> it's kinda odd
<LaserJock> it seems to take text from the Edubuntu docs and associate it with other docs
<LaserJock> mdke: you added the Edubuntu Handbook in the sidebar
<mdke> hmm. you're sure? lemme try and find out how.
<mdke> ah, yeah
<mdke> yeah, ok
<mdke> LaserJock: I need to check with Don about whether it will still work the same way, and I'll sort it when he replies
<LaserJock> k
<LaserJock> if you can maybe CC me on that I'd appreciate it
<mdke> argh
<mdke> LaserJock: too late, sorry
<mdke> I'll forward it, if that helps
<LaserJock> k
<LaserJock> just need something to remind me ;-)
<mdke> i see not everyone is convinced about the packaging guide moving to the wiki
<LaserJock> yeah :/
#ubuntu-doc 2008-09-22
<etfb> G'day.  I found a page that desperately needs editing, and I'm willing to have a go at it, but I don't want to step on anyone's toes.  What's the etiquette here?
<etfb> (Page is https://help.ubuntu.com/community/LinuxLogFiles -- needs copy editing, also has a lot of redundancy that makes it almost unreadable.)
<jjesse> etfb: change the doc and ask for forgiveness if someone complaines
<etfb> jjesse: Excellent policy!  I shall!
<jjesse> etfb: don't know if that is actual policy but is often times how i work here when no one responds
<etfb> jjesse: I'm already at it - chopping out long-winded woffle and correcting, abuse, of, commas...  The original author seems to think a comma is a special marker that means "Oh no! I'm about to use the word "and"! Look out!"
<etfb> What's the usual X text editor that people recommend for newbies to use in Gnome?  I know Kate is the standard in KDE.  Is it Gedit?
<Flannel> etfb: gedit in Ubuntu, mousepad in Xubuntu
<jjesse> gedit
 * jjesse beds
<Flannel> etfb: and nano in terminal
<etfb> Flannel: Thanks.
<mdke> andrew_sayers: hi, thanks for coming in here
<andrew_sayers> No problem - I was surprised you weren't here before.
<mdke> i haven't got much time this evening I'm afraid, was quite a long day at work
<andrew_sayers> Fair enough.
<mdke> so, following your last email
<mdke> I think that wiki markup is probably important enough to wait until we've ironed it out before we go ahead with the implementation
<mdke> i think a lot of editors will expect to use italics and such
<andrew_sayers> And links.
<mdke> yes, true
<mdke> do you have any idea of what might be causing the problem?
<mdke> i don't *think* there is anything wrong with my system
<andrew_sayers> Not enough of an idea to really ask a good question of a MoinMoin dev, I don't think.
<mdke> hmm
<andrew_sayers> My preference would be to work out what the difference is between me and you - why it doesn't affect me.
<mdke> any difference in system?
<andrew_sayers> Yeah.
<andrew_sayers> One way to do that would be for you to do a new install, another would be for you to make a tarball of your moinmoin-1.6.4, and send it to me.
<andrew_sayers> Although I guess you've got passwords and such buried in there somewhere.
<mdke> I mean, different python version?
<andrew_sayers> Oh, sorry.
<andrew_sayers> I think you're running Intrepid?
<mdke> yes
<andrew_sayers> I'm still on Hardy, so it could be something like that.
<mdke> the macro would have to work on dapper, so it would have to be pretty robust about these sorts of things
<mdke> lemme try a new install quickly
<andrew_sayers> Hmm, another way into the problem might be - do you know any friendly moinmoin experts?  I can probably work things out with them, it's just going to take more patience than I can expect from someone random.
<mdke> the moin guys are seriously helpful
<mdke> but I'm not aware of any experts in the Ubuntu community
<andrew_sayers> Hmm, I'll try asking them later then.
<mdke> seems to work ok on this new install
<mdke> I wonder if it's the theme I was using
<mdke> oh no, I'm getting it again now
<mdke> weird
<andrew_sayers> What steps did you take to reproduce it?
<mdke> download Moin 1.6.4, untar, run ./moin.py, edit frontpage, type <<Note(test)>>, save page
<andrew_sayers> And that caused the bug the second time, but not the first?
<mdke> it works ok on the first page save (on the #preview page) but on refresh I get the bug
<andrew_sayers> Ah, hmm.  I think maybe I was only previewing, not saving...
<mdke> well, it's saved, but it gives you a little message at the top saying "Thank you for your changes"
<mdke> when I clear that message, I get the problem
<andrew_sayers> Yeah, I get it now.
<mdke> ok, well that's good, sort of
<mdke> :)
<andrew_sayers> Yeah.  Even so, erk :)
<andrew_sayers> I think the solution to this may be somewhat ugly :s
<andrew_sayers> Anyway, I'll see what I can do and e-mail you during the night?
<mdke> I wonder if you could reuse the ReleaseVersion macro that sommer cooked up
<mdke> that seems to do something similar, in the sense that it adds a box with formatted text
<mdke> but it doesn't have any formatted input
<andrew_sayers> I'll have a look.
<mdke> thanks a lot dude. This is all much appreciated!
<andrew_sayers> As you say, scratching an itch :)
<mdke> I wouldn't have a clue how to do this
<andrew_sayers> It's just practice, like most things.  Plus it's given me the wiki bug, which I'm now looking for excuses to use everywhere :)
<mdke> that's good, I bet there are loads of other things we could improve :p
<andrew_sayers> Oh yeah, and we're ditching the old icon set then?
<mdke> andrew_sayers: I like the idea of using consistent ones with the system help
<andrew_sayers> Yeah, agreed.
<andrew_sayers> Do the other two actually ever get used?
<andrew_sayers> Caution and important?
<mdke> andrew_sayers: well, caution and warning get used for the same purpose, we should pick one (warning is more striking). Important isn't used afaik
<mdke> for urls, you can use https://help.ubuntu.com/8.04/images/admon/ for now
<mdke> maybe we'll stick them in the theme, maybe something else
<andrew_sayers> I'd rather not put them in the theme, unless I can dig up some theme-specific variable...
<andrew_sayers> So that the next theme writer doesn't get confused when he can't change the icons.
<mdke> andrew_sayers: yes, that's a good point. well, whatever works best
<andrew_sayers> If I'm asking moin devs anyway, I'll get their opinion.
<mdke> good plan
<mdke> I think they are mainly european hour-wise, but you may find someone around at this time
<andrew_sayers> Fair enough - otherwise I'll check back tomorrow.
<andrew_sayers> About ReleaseVersion - does it use an UbuntuVersions page, and if so, could you put one in Bazaar?
<andrew_sayers> mdke: ^^
<mdke> andrew_sayers: ah, sorry yeah
<mdke> andrew_sayers: http://tinyurl.com/4fbug5
<andrew_sayers> mdke: Excellent, thanks.
#ubuntu-doc 2008-09-23
<liw> I'd like to upload a new system-cleaner to fix #271234 and #271390, but they change the UI (command line and GTK both); is the doc team mentioning system-cleaner anywhere and would a new upload be problematic for you?
<mdke> liw: no, I don't think so. it's not installed by default. Being in universe it is unlikely to have translations either, afaik, but you shoudl notify both lists anyway as a matter of protocol
<liw> mdke, thanks
<little> Hey there, anybody active in here?
<perlluver> I am active
<little> Are you part of the documentation team?
<perlluver> I am not sure, I have done some editing, so I think maybe
<little> Ah, I was looking to speak to someone who's in charge of it, or in some way part of the decision-making process.
<perlluver> ah ok, not me, sorry
<little> Ah well, at least you're active. (:
<little> The web pages are kind of a jumble of information, and it's tough to tell what's needed most - documentation that's part of the operating systems or wiki documentation. I'm open for either.
<perlluver> both the same, they are both equally importnat
<little> I guess I'll just go onto the wikis and see what needs to be written up, then.
<perlluver> hang on
<perlluver> there is a list
<perlluver> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/CategoryCleanup
<perlluver> there you go
<little> Thanks! Looking...
<little> That looks like a great starting place, thanks!
<perlluver> your welcome
<perlluver> have fun
<little> Will do. I write HOWTO guides and I'm out of material to write right now, so I'm looking for something to do. (:
<perlluver> indeed, I have enjoyed it, hope you do too
<little> I guess I'm off to change a few things - hopefully for the better. Good luck to you, too! (:
<omegamormegil> Is there a help document anywhere that a newbie could read to learn best practice type of stuff?  I'm thinking of things like what to do with a feature request (use brainstorm or report a bug on launchpad), and how to avoid stepping on people's toes.  I know there's lots of information like this scattered around, but perhaps there should be a wiki page providing links to all of it?
<charlie-tca> There is a wiki for developers at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Home and a wiki for users at
<charlie-tca> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/
<charlie-tca> Perhaps a search on one of them would give you answers? I think you could use either brainstorm or bug, your choice
<omegamormegil> Thanks for the response, but I'm not seeking answers for myself.  I was just thinking that a page on the wiki that consolidated this kind of information for new users could be useful.  I remember when I first started using Ubuntu that I didn't understand how anything worked, and I didn't really know what launchpad was for, and I didn't know if I should be editing the wiki, etc.  I'm talking about a primer.  Along the lin
<omegamormegil> es of the Glossary at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Glossary, but more readable.  I don't expect people to sit down and read the glossary.
<omegamormegil> I was thinking of considering working on something like this, but I didn't know if it already existed, and I wasn't sure if I should just jump in and start typing.
<mdke> omegamormegil: help.ubuntu.com/community/CommonQuestions?
<mdke> omegamormegil: or, if you are talking about contributing to Ubuntu, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ContributingToUbuntu
 * mdke goes to bed
#ubuntu-doc 2008-09-24
<andrew_sayers> mdke: Needless to say, I disagree about IE6 with the site I linked to :)
<mdke> ok
<mdke> I don't think th comparison with firefox is a valid one
<andrew_sayers> How so?
<mdke> firefox respects web standards, and ie6 doesn't. More importantly, it has been superceded by ie7
<mdke> it's not like it's an up and coming browser with a valid reason for people to keep making efforts to support it
<mdke> especially if those efforts involve going out of one's way
<mdke> as long as it works, and the site isn't broken, I'm happy
<mdke> www.ubuntu.com has a number of substantial issues with IE6, and the approach was taken that as long as it is readable, it's ok
<mdke> now you go :)
<andrew_sayers> I'll stick to one point at a time, so here's my first argument :)
<andrew_sayers> Doesn't that make us look like zealots?
<mdke> no, I don't think so
<andrew_sayers> Either you ditch your solution of choice, or you're a second class citizen?
<mdke> that's not zealotry. People make choices like that all the time
<andrew_sayers> Hmm, can you give me an example?
<mdke> if the interests of 5% of users had to be catered for, no one would ever get any software UI work done
<andrew_sayers> That's where the FF argument comes in though.
<mdke> not really. To support firefox, all web designers had to do was to support web standards
<andrew_sayers> Or if you prefer, colour blind people, properly blind people, people with JS disabled, people that use Dvorak keyboards...
<mdke> right, people with JS disabled is another good example
<mdke> obviously things should work without JS enabled, but that doesn't mean that it should never be used to improve a site for those who enable it
<mdke> actually, for the theme, we're trying to use a JS solution for the editbar
<mdke> to work around that issue you encountered with the firefox "find" utility
<andrew_sayers> Yeah, I noticed something about that.
<andrew_sayers> I have no problem with adding extra functionality where possible, my problem is with breaking basic stuff that doesn't have to be broken.
<andrew_sayers> E.g. add colour to a website, but don't communicate information purely with colour, because of colour blindness.
<mdke> yes, I understand that
<mdke> what's the solution you had in mind for IE6?
<andrew_sayers> For which issue?
<mdke> the image transparency
<andrew_sayers> Use the icons I provided.
<andrew_sayers> Or alternatively, I'll do the same to the other icons.
<mdke> and what is it that you did?
<andrew_sayers> Converted the transparent background to the relevant colour.
<andrew_sayers> (Yellow for hint, red for warning, etc.)
<mdke> ok
<mdke> that kinda makes it more difficult to change the colours in the future, I guess?
<andrew_sayers> Yeah, although you seem to be saying you like it that way?
<andrew_sayers> We can always keep the originals around.
<mdke> no, that's not what I'm saying
<andrew_sayers> (That we should hard-code the background colours, rather than putting it in the theme)
<mdke> but it's not more difficult to edit the colours in the macro.py than it is to edit them in the theme.css
<mdke> it's the same number of type strokes
<mdke> but redoing the images is a bigger thing
<mdke> which wouldn't be necessary with transparent images
<mdke> also, using transparent images means we can use interchangeable icons with the system docs, which would be nice and simple
<mdke> i guess one weighs these things up when considering whether to make the effort for IE6
<andrew_sayers> Yeah - that was another point.  On a philosophical level, I feel the relationship between developer and user should be pretty unequal.
<andrew_sayers> On a practical level, most remaining IE6 users aren't that way by choice.
<andrew_sayers> Hmm... we can always give IE users different icons.
<mdke> uhoh
<andrew_sayers> Which makes the worst case (if we change BG colours) no different to the current case.
<andrew_sayers> (Although this takes us way into "ugly hack" territory)
<mdke> let's go with the edited images for everything. I'm sure it's easy enough to add the background and we'll have the transparent icons around for future reference if we change the colours
<andrew_sayers> Fair enough.
<andrew_sayers> But the GNOME icons rather than the current ones?
<mdke> well, I like them more. But I'd like others to agree before signing off, on the basis that we would be changing them in the system docs too
<mdke> do you like theme?
<mdke> them*
<andrew_sayers> I'll look again, gimme a mo...
<andrew_sayers> I prefer the tip, think the caution is better implemented, but don't really like the note.
<andrew_sayers> If it's an either/or choice, I'd say go with the GNOME ones.
<mdke> :)
<mdke> I don't really like the previous note icon, it's a bit oldfashioned and I don't see the use of having text in it
<andrew_sayers> I quite like the text, but more importantly, I like that it's a small light rectangle - a big bright square is kinda offputting to me.
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> would you want to change the background colours if we switch icons?
<andrew_sayers> Preferably, yeah.
<mdke> I thought you would say that
<mdke> damn perfectionists
<andrew_sayers> :)
<mdke> ok. Let's get the macro into review and on the wiki with the existing icons, and think about new icons at a later stage then. the work has all been done on that basis
<mdke> can you send me the png files with the coloured backgrounds?
<andrew_sayers> Well, hang on...
<andrew_sayers> If you want the macro to work with old themes unmodified, we'll need to change the macro.
<andrew_sayers> Since at present you'll just see an unstyled table.
<mdke> you mean because the css isn't in the theme?
<andrew_sayers> It's not in the old themes, yeah.
<mdke> that's ok, I think. The ReleaseVersion macro requires css to be added to the theme too
<andrew_sayers> Hmm.
<andrew_sayers> I would think that either the CSS and image should be theme-specific, or neither should be.
<mdke> most macros like that require css to be added to the theme, I think
<andrew_sayers> Having them disagree sounds like a maintenance problem to me.
<mdke> andrew_sayers: maybe you're right
<mdke> ok, let's face it that I need to merge your other revisions too :)
<andrew_sayers> Each of these opinions is a reaction to an old scar from making the opposite choice long ago :)
<mdke> ok. I'll do the merge
<andrew_sayers> Thanks.
<andrew_sayers> Would you rather wait for me to put some more icons in?
<mdke> I think these will work fine
<andrew_sayers> Fair enough, although the icons are now done - I'll e-mail them?
<mdke> ok, thanks. Maybe off-list
<andrew_sayers> Yeah, good idea.
<mdke> gtg to bed now
<mdke> thanks for the chat
<andrew_sayers> Night night.
<andrew_sayers> Thanks for scratching the itch :)
#ubuntu-doc 2008-09-25
<pascal3> bonjour
<little> Hey there. (:
<jjesse> hello little
<little> I'm a big fan of Kubuntu and have written several HOWTO pages, and would just love to contribute. Time on my hands and all that. (:
<little> You guys can feel free to check out my work at http://littlergirl.googlepages.com
<little> I try to write idiot-proof documentation that anybody can follow. (:
<jjesse> cool that's what wwe need, idiot proof documentation
<little> LOL!
<little> Some of my stuff would be a bit complicated to put onto the wiki, but I'm up for it. (:
<jjesse> if you find anything that needs to change in the current hardy documentation you can always file bugs against kubuntu-docs
<jjesse> and then start working on fixing them :)
<jjesse> the docbook branch is located at https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-doc/ubuntu-doc/kubuntu-intrepid
<little> Is this one already useless: https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-doc/ubuntu-doc/kubuntu-hardy ? I use Hardy Heron LTS.
<jjesse> well if there are bugs in the hardy branch we will be updating them in the intrepid release
<jjesse> the bug might be fixed in intrepid already
<little> Then I think I'd be better at doing the wiki documentation, since my interest is in how to make the software do things. (:
<jjesse> make what software work?
<little> Ah, sorry, I was editing the Documentation page. Whatever software interests me at any given time. I document how to use it.
<mdke> kirkland: just to followup on something you mentioned in your recent email to the list: wiki.ubuntu.com isn't a documentation site. Unofficial ubuntu documentation is on help.ubuntu.com/community
<kirkland> mdke: whoops, my bad :-/
<mdke> kirkland: no worries, I just wanted to clarify
<kirkland> mdke: thanks for doing so
<mdke> kirkland: it's not the most obvious distinction
<kirkland> mdke: i was honing in on that guy's PPC angle, probably something we're lacking around here
<mdke> but if you see *user* documentation on wiki.u.c (as opposed to developer documentation), then it can be tagged for moving with "CategoryDocumentation"
<mdke> kirkland: yeah, I think that's a good idea
<kirkland> mdke: good point, will take note
<mdke> kirkland: by the way, awesome post on your trip to Scotland, really enjoyed reading it
<kirkland> mdke: thanks ;-)  it was a helluva trip
<mdke> :)
<kirkland> mdke: you been to the north country before?
<mdke> kirkland: briefly only, and i didn't see much unfortunately
<mdke> I've wanted to go back, driving through it alone was pretty beautiful
<kirkland> mdke: yeah, i can't wait to see more of it
<kirkland> i'm ready to go back already
<mdke> heh
#ubuntu-doc 2008-09-26
<nellery> Any core-doc members around?
<mdke> nellery: hi
<mdke> nellery: leaving now though
<j-noise> hi
<j-noise> i had sent an mail to list to join
<j-noise> there was no response
<j-noise> please guide me
<salty-horse> hi. how do I open an html file with yelp? "yelp <filename>" doesn't work. do I need to specify a protocol before the filename?
<nellery> salty-horse, if your still around, its "yelp ~/../../..
<nellery> you need to specify the whole thing
<salty-horse> nellery, thanks. then I found a bug in yelp
<nellery> any core-doc member's around?
<nellery> my membership in the students team is about to expire
#ubuntu-doc 2008-09-27
<mdke> nellery: ok
<mdke> nellery: you should be able to renew your own membership now I hope. Let me know if it doesn't work
<nellery> mdke, still not possible to do so
<nhandler> I was recommended to stop by here to try and find a solution to my wiki issue. A while ago, I added a redirect to a page on wiki.ubuntu.com. Now, I am trying to remove that redirect. However, I have been unable to find a way to edit that page. Is there a way to accomplish this?
<technomensch> what's the page?
<nhandler> technomensch: 'nhandler'
<technomensch> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/nhandler??
<nhandler> Yes technomensch
<technomensch> give me a second.
<nhandler> Sure thing technomensch
<little> Anybody know how to center a table on a page?
<little> .......on the wiki.
<technomensch> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/HelpOnTables
<little> I must still be doing it wrong.
<little> I tried <tablestyle="center">
<technomensch> it's not standard html....lemme help nhandler first get rid of the rediect.  it's not working like I remember
<technomensch> you're next
<nhandler> technomensch: I think the wiki update changed things. You used to be able to add on ?action=show or ?action=edit to be able to view or edit the page without doing the redirect
<little> Okay - you're a sweetheart. (:
<nhandler> Did you find anything technomensch ?
<technomensch> not yet.  but I do I have an answer for little.  you still here?
<little> Yeah
<technomensch> take a look at this page and my edit code behind the scenes: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Home/PageDiscussion
<technomensch> I centered the software developers table
<little> w00t! It worked! Now can I leave off the width portion?
<technomensch> I don't think so.  I wasn't able to.  you'll need to play around with it
<little> Blast. It won't let me. I tried it a few ways. My problem is that I have a wide-screen monitor, but many people don't, and I want to make sure it will be centered for those who don't.
<technomensch> understood
<technomensch> try to make it look like it would look good in the new theme over on help.ubuntu.com
<technomensch> go to preferences in help.ubuntu.com and change your theme to ubuntunew
<technomensch> that's what we're leaning to make it look like
<technomensch> it centers the page no matter how big the monitor is
<little> You wouldn't happen to know what the code is for centering the text inside a cell, would you? I can't make head nor tail out of the moinmoin pages. (:
<technomensch> yes
<little> Thanks for the help! I think it looks downright snazzy now! https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Glossary
<little> The table I was working on was the top one. (:
<technomensch> almost.....hold on
<little> It's not a desperate emergency. Go ahead and work on nhandler's question. I left a note in the code of the page for anyone who knows how to center the table. (:
<technomensch> no, I see how it looks in the new template
<technomensch> little, take a look now
<technomensch> it looks very centered on my monitor in the new theme
<little> Hmmm, my son says it's too far to the left for him now on his square monitor. It's centered for me, but it was centered for me the way I had it before. Oh, and SHORTCUTS needs to be centered, too. (:
<little> It looks a lot better than it did earlier this morning, though. Someone had the internal shortcuts showing (the # symbol for each letter).
<technomensch> oh poo
<little> LOL
<little> I wish you could just do standard HTML code. (:
<technomensch> that's one of the many reasons I miss mediawiki code
<little> I'm new to the whole wiki thing. I just started with it a couple of days ago.
<little> I got the top text centered now. I think I'm getting the hang of this. (:
<technomensch> LOL
<little> You gave me a great idea in looking at other people
<little> ...
<little> people's pages to see how they did something. (:
<technomensch> stealing code makes life easier
 * little hates the location of the ' key.
<little> technomensch: Thank you so much for the help! I'm headed off to bed. (:
<technomensch> I'm sorry nhandler, but I couldn't find it
<rsc->  How can I rename a wiki page? I want to move my page from /Artwork/Incoming/Intrepid/DustTheme to /Artwork/Incoming/DustTheme (out of the intrepid cycle).
<Flannel> rsc-: I answered that already
<Flannel> rsc-: There's a rename option on the drop down menu at the top of the page.
<rsc-> I can't quite find it :/ http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/2800/screenshot2mv8.png
<rsc-> oh oops
<rsc-> dropdown okay
<rsc-> Flannel, will it still be accessible from the old URL?
<Flannel> rsc-: No, it'll be renamed
<rsc-> so how do i redirect the old url to the new one?
<little> Hey there, any team members on?
<technomensch> what's up?
<little> I'm wanting to ask some questions of team members. (:
<technomensch> shoot.
<little> Well, when you go to the Kubuntu wiki and try to create a page, you can select a document template. This I did.
<little> Once I had it, I read it, and it says not to create Kubuntu pages in the Kubuntu wiki any more, but to create them in the Ubuntu wiki.
<little> I know, I said I had questions. (:
<technomensch> ahha
<little> What I'm wondering is whether a change can be made to the main Ubuntu Community Documentation page to let Kubuntu users know that they're not there mistakenly, but are, in fact, welcome.
<technomensch> you're referring to: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kubuntu
<little> If you were brand new to Kubuntu and clicked on the Documentation link and ended up at an Ubuntu documentation page, you'd think you got something wrong.
<little> Yep.
<technomensch> there is actually an IRC chat room link on that page
<technomensch> each distro has their own thoughts and rules
<little> I went into #kubuntu-doc and was the only person there. (:
<little> Do you know if the plan (and by that, I mean, The Plan) is for all the documentation to be concatenated into the Ubuntu wiki?
<technomensch> no....  Join us in the #kubuntu chat room for support, or the #kubuntu-devel chat room for development.
<little> Yeah, I did that the other day and got sent here. (:
<technomensch> alright....um...
<little> Basically what I'm seeing as I look over what needs to be done is that there's just SO much that needs to be done, and it's all rather disorganized, and I feel somewhat powerless to make it all better. (:
<technomensch> have you checked the mailing list archives for the docs team?
<little> No, and I hope that's not the only way to contact them.
<technomensch> LOL
<little> I hate those. (:
<little> Regular email is fine, but those round-robin emails are messy. (:
<little> I'm basically a fervent admirer of the Ubuntu family of software, and I love to document it, and would love to be of use, but it's such a mess that it's virtually impossible to tell where to begin.
<little> Gosh, I'm scaring them out of the channel...
<technomensch> I happen to agree.  I've been trying to get with mike and the rest of the team to get a meeting scheduled at some point.....
<technomensch> hehehe
<little> It could be cleaned up, but it appears to be growing as fast as (or faster than) it gets cleaned up, and needs to somehow be brought under some sort of control. (:
<technomensch> here's the trick
<little> I'm doing what I can to help, but I haven't had anyone "in power" looking over my shoulder telling me what I should, shouldn't, can, can't do, so I'm sort of flying by the seat of my pants and hoping nobody gets offended by my edits. (:
<technomensch> use google to search the mailing list archive
<technomensch> http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=Kubuntu+Wiki+2008+site%3Ahttps%3A%2F%2Flists.ubuntu.com%2Farchives%2Fubuntu-doc%2F&btnG=Google+Search&meta=
<technomensch> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Kubuntu+Wiki+2008+site%3Ahttps%3A%2F%2Flists.ubuntu.com%2Farchives%2Fubuntu-doc%2F&btnG=Google+Search&meta=
<technomensch> sorry, somehow I ended up in the great white north instead of the good ole use
<technomensch> usa
<little> I'm jealous. (:
<technomensch> where are you?
<little> New York.
<technomensch> FL
<little> I'm sorry. (:
<technomensch> that was a joke about the google search researchs
<technomensch> results
<little> Yeah, I realized that after you said it. So the second one is the one I want, right?
<technomensch> yep
<little> So the only real way to contact these people is through the mailing lists?
<technomensch> to be honest, yea
<technomensch> unless we can get a meeting set up
<little> That would be my first suggestion, then: Make them easier to reach. (:
<technomensch> the problem is time zones
<technomensch> same place, same time
<little> With people living all over the world, there would likely be someone up and available at any given time, wouldn't there?
<technomensch> I'm still playing catch up myself on everything that's been decided
<technomensch> and I was approved for the wiki team
<technomensch> I'm trying to help clean everything up and organize it to address issues/confusions like this
<little> Do you know if the plan is for all documentation to end up on the Ubuntu wiki?
<technomensch> I would hope so, but I cannot say that for absolute certainty
<technomensch> right now, I'm working on this: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Home/PageDiscussion
<little> It's looking good. (:
<technomensch> tahanks.  I liked the appearance of the marketing team's home page and decided to incorporate it
<technomensch> I really want to try to get the teams to have a similar look.  but one step at a time
<little> Yeah. How did you upload the graphics? Or are you linking to them from another page?
<technomensch> currently, I'm linking them from other ubuntu pages
<technomensch> but for that info, go to the IconPage
<little> Bookmarked!
<technomensch> yea, it helps
<little> How does someone who isn't on the team re-arrange information? For instance, I see a page that works well as a main page, and could nicely have child pages off of it that logically follow the topic, going into greater detail in each.
<little> Say I see a few pages that aren't properly related, but would work well if gathered together under such a structure.
<technomensch> welcome to our world
<little> Would I create that parent page, create child pages off of it, copy the information from the straggling pages and then notify someone to remove the originals?
<little> LOL
<technomensch> probably redirect/refesh instead of deleting would be better
<technomensch> but a simiple reanme should work, I would think based on the way moinmoin works
<little> Yeah, us non-team members don't have the power to rename. (:
<technomensch> what I would do is come up with the structure.  lay it out page by page in a list format, and submit it to the mailing list.
<technomensch> that's what I've been doing
<little> Okay, I guess that would work.
<little> And do you know if the tags from the Tag page somehow notify someone if you put one up?
<technomensch> no, but those with rights check it very frequently
<little> They do a search for tags?
<technomensch> take a look at the page again: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Tag
<technomensch> "List of pages with this tag"
<little> Excellent, thanks!
<little> I think that and the Discuss this page link at the bottom of pages will probably be my best way to communicate with the team.
<technomensch> ::nod:::
<technomensch> stick around, I migth have some help for ya
<technomensch> brb...
<little> Okay.
<mdke> we don't tend to use "discuss this page" links at the moment
<mdke> we don't have a good method for managing them, it's better to write to the mailing list
<technomensch> actually, mike, we can talk here.
<little> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/DocumentationTemplate
<mdke> technomensch: it's Matt!
<little> I've been adding the link to the bottom of the pages I've found in CategoryCleanup. (:
<technomensch> sorry matt
<mdke> little: if there is a particular issue that arises out of a page which isn't appropriate for users to read, then you can create a discussion page to point the team to when you mail the list, but generally it's not a good idea to add them to everything
<little> mdke: Okay.
<mdke> little: I'll update DocumentationTemplate, it isn't up to date with our current thinking from the mailing list...
<little> This is kind of what I've been talking about. This stuff somehow needs to be made clear, and needs to be in one place, instead of in a lot of places.
<little> I'm not complaining. I'm more than willing to help. I just like order, and I see chaos. (:
<technomensch> matt, little also had a great question about the kubuntu...<little: he's the guy to ask
 * little makes a note of that.
<little> mdke: Is it the plan for all Kubuntu wiki documentation to be in the Ubuntu wiki instead of in the Kubuntu wiki?
<mdke> little: there isn't a kubuntu wiki, as far as I'm aware. Kubuntu shares the same wiki as Ubuntu for development work, and it doesn't have a documentation wiki or website
<technomensch> I think what little might be getting at
<little> https://wiki.kubuntu.org/
<technomensch> is....something like wiki.ubuntu.com/community/Kubuntu/.....
<technomensch> little, yea, that's all moving to the main
<mdke> little: that's the same site as wiki.ubuntu.com, with the same database, with a different theme
<mdke> it's a single wiki
<little> In the end, it all links to: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/
<little> Is there a way that Kubuntu users can be made welcome on that page, either by a Kubuntu icon or some sort of text letting them know they're in the right place?
<mdke> ok, this is all a bit confusing
<little> A new user would be confused if sent to that page.
<mdke> let me explain a bit
<mdke> wiki.ubuntu.com, wiki.kubuntu.org and wiki.edubuntu.org, all of which are the same site, are for development and team management work
<mdke> in the old days, there used to be some documentation on this wiki
<mdke> we introduced a new documentation wiki at help.ubuntu.com/community to which all documentation pages were moved
<technomensch> :::pause:::: in conversation
<mdke> redirects were left on the development wiki to forward documentation pages to the new site
<mdke> at the moment, as far as I know, Kubuntu doesn't have any organised online documentation
<technomensch> are we including them in the removal clean up process?
<technomensch> the redirects and old pages, that is
<little> That is the question!
<mdke> no, they are on a different website and have nothing to do with the cleanup efforts we've been doing recently
<technomensch> fair enough.....
<technomensch> however, along those same lines.......
<mdke> although we could think about getting rid of them, as a separate discussion :)
<mdke> they cause a hell of a lot of confusion
<little> The very first link on https://wiki.kubuntu.org/ is https://help.ubuntu.com/community/
<technomensch> I motion that we bring up the proposal
<mdke> little: yes, that's to clarify that wiki.kubuntu.org isn't for documentation
<little> My question is whether Kubuntu could somehow be (somewhat prominently) mentioned near the top of the page so a Kubuntu user wouldn't think they'd gone to the wrong page?
<mdke> little: on which site?
<technomensch> pause....
<little> I've been using Kubuntu for a year and a half, so I'm not confused, but my concern is that a new user would think they got sent to the wrong place.
<little> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/
<technomensch> I would like to propose asking them to have a full-on redirect from their wiki.kubuntu.org to help.ubuntu.org and then we get a community/Kubuntu section established.....
<little> Since that's where *all* documentation is going, maybe a mention of that fact would be good.
<mdke> gah
<mdke> we are now having two different conversations at the same time
<little> A redirect will be confusing without some sort of explanation.
<mdke> let's do little's first
<technomensch> okkie
 * little comforts technomensch
<technomensch> well, this kinda leads into my next discussion
<mdke> don't start it yet, please
<mdke> let's finish these two
<technomensch> okkie
<mdke> so if there is an organised set of kubuntu documentation on help.ubuntu.com/community, and if the Kubuntu comunity wants to use it as their documentation site, then I don't see a problem to adding a link
<mdke> but at the moment, I don't think either of those things are true, or am I wrong?
<technomensch> little, you're the kubuntu user here
<little> There are some Kubuntu-specific documents already in place on the Ubuntu wiki.
<mdke> yes, in a sporadic sort of way
<technomensch> are they under a section devoted to kubuntu or spread out?
<little> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UserDocumentation?action=fullsearch&context=180&value=kubuntu&titlesearch=Titles
<little> They're spread out, but I'd be happy to help with that. (:
<mdke> let's think about this
<mdke> is it actually helpful to have Kubuntu documentation on the same site?
 * little didn't write any of them
<mdke> or would it be better to have a separate site
<technomensch> how much of it is specific for kubuntu and cannot be incorporated into the main community docs?
<mdke> there are obvious advantages and disadvantages to both
<little> Well, there was a separate site - or at least there seemed to be. The thing is that there isn't that much difference between Kubuntu and Ubuntu, so there are few topics that really need specialized documents.
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> I suppose we could create a section like: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Kubuntu and have the main Kubuntu website point at it for documentation
<little> My main focus is in letting the new user know that. At this point, there is no mention of that anywhere.
<mdke> but... it's a pretty weird url
<mdke> and it would look odd, unless we did some theming magic like with wiki.ubuntu.com
<little> The other issue (just to muddy the waters a bit) is that a Kubuntu user might not need Kubuntu-specific help, so having them sent to the main Ubuntu wiki page is still a good idea, but making them feel welcome is the idea. (:
<technomensch> to be honest Matt, that was something I was thinking about and the exact thing I was about to suggest.  then, and I know I'm getting ahead of myself, we can have community/Edubuntu, community/Xubuntu, community/Gobuntu, etc.....
<technomensch> get everything together and organized
<technomensch> I know....crazy and insane
<mdke> I wonder if it would be technically possible to create a help.kubuntu.org and have it point at help.ubuntu.com/community/Kubuntu but with a different theme
<technomensch> I like it
<technomensch> I like that idea a lot
<little> You're already on the way to having that. My suggestion is to alter https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ so that at the top of the page, it's made known to users that *all* derivatives of Ubuntu can find documentation here.
<technomensch> well, little, I actually kinda went a little overboard when I redid that page a few weeks back
<mdke> well, we're not really on the way to having that at all
<little> Right now the first thing they see is, "Welcome to the community documentation for Ubuntu - created by users just like you!" and they'll think to themselves, "But I don't USE Ubuntu!"
<mdke> help.ubuntu.com doesn't have a kubuntu theme, or a kubuntu url redirect
<mdke> little: right, so the problem is that they end up there in the first place...
<little> But it could pretty easily get some icons near the top, or a mention of the other derivatives.
<little> mdke: No, that's not a problem. They belong there. The problem is they don't know it. (:
<little> A new user may think they got sent to that page by mistake, and leave.
<mdke> I disagree, they shouldn't be sent to the page at all
<mdke> they should get sent to a page with Kubuntu documentation
<mdke> let's see how xubuntu does it - http://xubuntu.org/help
<mdke> only the first link is really documentation, at it points at a genuine xubuntu document: https://help.ubuntu.com/xubuntu/desktopguide/C/index.html
<mdke> s/at/and
<mdke> hmm
<little> Pretend you're brand new and you just got a shiny copy of Kubuntu and want to look up some stuff on the wiki. Then do it, and when you end up at the Ubuntu page, imagine what you might think if you didn't know Ubuntu even existed and you knew you were using Kubuntu. Wouldn't you be a bit confused?
<mdke> little: yeah. I just disagree with you about the cause
<mdke> the problem is that I shouldn't be ending up at the Ubuntu page in the first place
<little> But you need to end up at the Ubuntu page, since much of its documentation pertains directly to your release.
<little> ...derivative...
<mdke> so what is wrong with the idea of creating a Kubuntu subpage and ensuring that users end up there?
<mdke> if the Kubuntu community wants to maintain wiki documentation, that's the easiest way to do it
<little> I suppose that would work, as long as it had a link to https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ with an explanation that much of the documentation works for all derivatives.
<little> And while I've got your ear, the Documentation tab at the top right of https://wiki.kubuntu.org/ is broken.
<little> I filed a bug report, but that might not have been the best way of going about it. (:
<mdke> see, the problem is that the help wiki isn't actually written with an eye on kubuntu users at all
<mdke> but the kubuntu community could change that by creating a section and maintaining it
<mdke> at the moment, there is very little contribution to kubuntu system documentation, let alone maintaining a wiki...
<technomensch> the thing to remember is, we don't run the kubuntu docs...they have their own community.
<little> Probably because it's all kind of confusing. But order will come out of chaos. (:
<mdke> little: well, it's really a lack of manpower
<little> Yeah, I got pointed here when I headed down the Kubuntu documentation road a couple of days ago. Even the page template sends you to the Ubuntu Wiki and tells you not to create pages there any more.
<mdke> the kubuntu system documentation has had 20 commits in this release cycle
 * little is new manpowere. (:
<mdke> little: that's good! Welcome.
<mdke> so, nixternal and jjesse are currently the only two point contributing to kubuntu system documentation
<little> Thanks! But I've been spending my time on the Ubuntu wiki since I thought that's what we were supposed to do <blush>.
<mdke> the system documentation unfortunately isn't published online yet
<mdke> if you would be interested in working with them to create a kubuntu resource at help.ubuntu.com/community/Kubuntu then I think that would be great
<technomensch> agreed
<mdke> then, we can fix the Documentation tab on the website, to point at that
<little> I would, and I'd love to organize what they already have. That's what I was picking technomensch's brain about before you came in. (:
<little> Is there a way to make an existing page a child of a new page?
<mdke> sure, you rename it
<technomensch> we never came up with a "rename" tag
<mdke> but renaming is a bit restricted on the help wiki
<little> Yeah, outsiders don't have that power.
<mdke> because it can have consequences
<mdke> little: have you read through https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiGuide already?
<little> Right, since everything is inter-linked by name.
 * mdke nods
<little> Yep, and a few other pages. There are a bunch of pages that help with the wiki. Some of the instructions for the finer arts (like centering tables <wink at technomensch>) are a bit tough to understand, though.
<mdke> yeah, that's internal Moin documentation
<little> Frightening stuff. (:
<technomensch> speaking of which, those moinmoin docs come up in searches they shouldn't be causing more confusion
<mdke> but WikiGuide should be enough for most contribution
<mdke> technomensch: yeah, I saw your post about that. We should probably remove most of those
<technomensch> that would be most appreciated.  thanks.
<mdke> it's another one for the sysadmins, I'm afraid
<technomensch> fun fun
<technomensch> would it cause confusion if we made up an additional wikiguide type page to help users
<mdke> little: you can poke me about renaming
<technomensch> example........
<little> Ooooh, how do I do that?
<mdke> little: you go "mdke: please rename X to Y"
<technomensch> the centering of tables little was talking about...I found out how to do that by rummaging through other people's cold
<little> LOL
<little> technomensch: And I've now happily stolen your technique. (:
<mdke> it's not in HelpOnTables?
<little> Kind of...
<technomensch> not centering the actual table, but the text inside the cells
<mdke> it's not in HelpOnTables?
<technomensch> only how to center the text within the cell
<little> Even that ended up a bit difficult to understand. I had to get creative to accomplish it in the header row of the table, but I got it working.
<mdke> oh, sorry
<mdke> can you guys edit HelpOnTables?
<technomensch> no
<little> You can use <:> to center text in any but the header rows, but you have to do it differently in the header row.
<technomensch> it's immutable
<mdke> I seem to be able to
<technomensch> mdke= admin access.  even with wiki team access, I can't
<mdke> hmm.
<technomensch> am I on the editor's group to rename and delete from help.?
<little> Yes, it says Log in to edit. Hmmm
<technomensch> if so, then I'll recheck
<technomensch> little, I am logged in
<little> I'm about to be.
<technomensch> it won't matter. the page is immutable because it's built into the moinmoin code.  only high level access can edit them
<little> Nope, now it says immutable page.
<technomensch> <<scratches head>> I think I just said that
<mdke> technomensch: no, I'll add you
<technomensch> gratze
<mdke> technomensch: you're familiar with when to add a redirect for a page you are renaming, yeah?
<technomensch> yea, but I wouldn't do any renaming without running it through the mailing list first
<mdke> technomensch: that's ok, you've done enough work to rename and delete pages yourself, as long as you are conservative about it - don't delete pages unless you're sure they are totally useless
<technomensch> I've run my own wiki and know how renaming pages can really break stuff up
<technomensch> which brings up the actual category deletion page.
<technomensch> and if the tagging has been done, instead of redirecting, that may need to be removed
<technomensch> and it looks like there are no pages linking back to it
<mdke> ok, you're added
<mdke> well, there was one page on CategoryDeletion which I was unsure about
<technomensch> logging out and logging back in to see see if I can now edit helpontables
<technomensch> which page?
<technomensch> matt, sorry.  doesn't look like the Editors Group can edit the HelpOn pages.........
<mdke> it was https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SoftwarePackagingFormats but it has a tag on it already, so I've now deleted CategoryDeletion
<mdke> technomensch: no, I'm not surprised. I suspect that is some superadmin thing
<mdke> probably hardcoded into the wiki configuration
<technomensch> that was my thinkiing
<little> I tagged ChoosingSecurePassword for deletion. I hope that's okay.
<technomensch> we can always create our own page of wiki edit code if we had to
<technomensch> Matt, I'll fix the /ToDo list to correspond with your deleting of the categorydeletion
<mdke> ok, I'm just going through the pages which refer to it now
<technomensch> oh, you are?
<technomensch> well I'll fix the todo list accordingly
<mdke> thanks
<mdke> little: yes, that makes sense, thanks
<Rocket2DMn> categorydeletion goes byebye
<Rocket2DMn> uh oh technomensch we conflicted on wikitodo
<little> mdke: The other page mentioned is really well written and thorough.
<technomensch> I just noticed that....
<Rocket2DMn> let me see if i can roll it back
<technomensch> I tried and it wouldn't let me
<mdke> little: so, if you'd like to help out with the kubuntu onboard documentation too, I'm sure that would come in really handy.
<Rocket2DMn> nope doesnt let me revert
<mdke> technomensch: you should be able to revert now, no?
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, negative
<little> mdke: I'm planning on it. I currently have the 14 existing Kubuntu pages open and am looking to see which of them are out of date, etc.
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: I mean technomensch
<mdke> little: awesome!
<Rocket2DMn> oh did you give him extra access?
<little> Any plans on making more of these: <<Include(Software/804Template)>> for the other releases?
<technomensch> hold on....
<mdke> little: we've developed a macro called <<ReleaseVersion>> which does this.
<mdke> little: I expect it to be added to the help wiki next week, stay tuned to the mailing list for more info
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: yeah
<little> Excellent!
<Rocket2DMn> ah ok
<mdke> little: it will look like this - http://doc.ubuntu.com/~mdke/macros.png
<technomensch> Revision 112 as of 2008-09-27 21:00:09
<technomensch> You are not allowed to revert this page!
<Rocket2DMn> the problem with reverting came up a few months ago mdke , i thought normal users were supposed to revert, but we still cant
<mdke> technomensch: can you try deleting something?
<little> mdke: Very nice! And we'll be able to specify which versions a page is aimed at?
<technomensch> I willl copy the code for the todo list afirst
<mdke> little: yeah
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: yeah we need to sort that out
<technomensch> unless FF has major caching issues right now, renmae and delete are greyed out...trying IE
<mdke> damn
<little> If you don't mind, if I come across any version-specific pages in the interim, I'll put a ##note at the top of the code with the version info so it will be easy to spot when adding the tags.
<technomensch> Rocket, can you fix the todo manually in the meantime while matt and I sort this out
<Rocket2DMn> yeah
<Rocket2DMn> ill revert to my version
<technomensch> ::nod::
<mdke> technomensch: the wiki is using the wrong username for you. It says ubuntu-doc-technomensch instead of marc-kaplan
<technomensch> I tried renaming it in launchpad, that might be what's causing the conflict
<technomensch> it seems to be 2 different ids
<mdke> the wiki is a bit broken on this specific issue
<mdke> it doesn't pick up renamed ids
<mdke> I've reported it already
<technomensch> ok, so I need to go to launchpad and revert my id?
<mdke> let's use ubuntu-doc-technomensch for now, I'll amend the rights
<mdke> no, no
<technomensch> :::not moving:::
<mdke> ok, now try
<technomensch> log out first?
<Rocket2DMn> is there a listing somewhere of the users who have elevated access levels?
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: EditorGroup and AdminGroup
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, "You are not allowed to view this page."
<mdke> ah
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: I'm happy to add you to EditorGroup too, if you'll also agree to rename and delete pages sparingly, only when necessary, and being careful to leave redirects if appropriate
<technomensch> on help. or wiki. ?
<mdke> help
<Rocket2DMn> sure mdke
<mdke> done
<Rocket2DMn> on a side note, is it possible to grant privileges to only part of the wiki (i'd like to be able to have delete capability on the Beginners Team area of the team wiki)
<Rocket2DMn> thanks mdke
<technomensch> matt, as I was tell rocket, the reason I had changed my name was because I had a brainfart and thought I would have to use that as my openid for everywhere that allows openid instead of creating a second one
<technomensch> rocket, I think the ediorgroup group gives you that access
<technomensch> delete any page
<technomensch> that is not immutable
<technomensch> try to log out and log in
<technomensch> and then try to delete the page you need to
<Rocket2DMn> technomensch, yeah, im talking about the Team wiki, not the Help wiki
<technomensch> I think it's the same rights for both
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: everyone has access to delete pages on the team wiki, no?
<Rocket2DMn> really? ive never tried
<mdke> think so, we only have access control on the help wiki
<mdke> team wiki is open
<Rocket2DMn> ah, very well then.  weve almost finished our move to the team wiki, so we dont have any rogue pages yet to test
<technomensch> speaking of which, matt how much is left on moving the docs team wiki articles to the team wiki?
<technomensch> want me to help or are you doing that?
<mdke> i'm still a bit hesitant for some reason
<technomensch> well, we can always copy the articles and don't have to fully move it YET
<mdke> I keep thinking about potential reasons not to. On balance I think we should move them, but I keep hesitating
<mdke> I'll do it, promise :)
<technomensch> I'll do it if you don't want to
<Rocket2DMn> hehe, it is a bit of a pain to move pages
<mdke> heh
<technomensch> btw, matt, remember a few weeks back when I created a draft revision for the team wiki home page?
<Rocket2DMn> alright, i just got back from the gym, so i need to clean up, ill bbiab.  thanks for the promotion mdke , let me know if there is anything else you need me to do
<technomensch> good to see ya rocket.
<Rocket2DMn> you too marc
<mdke> technomensch: sure yes
<technomensch> sworry, about that...was afk.   before I mention what I've been doing, I realized soemthing
<technomensch> if we can't get in to fix the redirects, then it will be harder to move our docs team docs over to the team wiki unless the redirects get morevd
<technomensch> right?
<Rocket2DMn> yeah, how DO we get a redirected page to show?
<technomensch> we were talking about that earlier.  we think it might be a bug in the upgraded version
<Rocket2DMn> i mean i love the speed of the redirect, but we do need access...
<Rocket2DMn> did you ask matthew technomensch ?
<technomensch> (4:12:01 PM) Matt (mdke): whoosh
<technomensch> (4:12:09 PM) Matt (mdke): that's some kind of weird hardcoded redirect
<technomensch> 4:12:42 PM) Matt (mdke): that was done when they did the wiki upgrade, but it's totally unnecessary.
<technomensch> as of right now, it looks like we might be in holding till he can get with the admins.....if I'm right
<Rocket2DMn> hmm which upgrade was that?
<Rocket2DMn> there was a major moin upgrade a few months ago, but there may have been some smaller upgrades more recently
<technomensch> we'll have to wait till matt comes back to the chat room.  I know he's around somewhere
<technomensch> I see he's still on
<mdke> technomensch: there are two types of redirects
<mdke> one is the regular type (#REDIRECT or #REFRESH) which we can edit
<mdke> the other is the hardcoded one by which people's launchpad ID point to their WikiName
<technomensch> AH
<mdke> the latter doesn't affect moving new pages
<mdke> it was a one-off thing introduced by the upgrade to openid
<technomensch> then, rocket, to answer your question=  add ?action=edit to the page name
<technomensch> not add ?show
<technomensch> gotcha
<Rocket2DMn> technomensch, i tried that one...
<mdke> the easiest way is to visit the page
<mdke> then you see the message at the top that says "Redirected from X"
<mdke> click on that, and you should be able to view and edit the redirecting page normally
<technomensch> that's the way it works in mediawiki
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/nhandler -> needs to have the redirect removed
<Rocket2DMn> but none of those methods work
<technomensch> that's different
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: that's one of the hardcoded redirects
<technomensch> that's tied to the openid
<Rocket2DMn> thats confusing, b/c the LP profile being used is nhandler
<technomensch> I already mentioned it to him and he's giong to submit getting that redirect removed
<Rocket2DMn> maybe he has a similar issue as you technomensch , with a different wiki login than LP
<mdke> not exactly the same issue
<Rocket2DMn> =/
<mdke> but it is a different bug introduced by the same code
<mdke> why does he want the redirect removed, by the way?
<Rocket2DMn> preference i guess
<Rocket2DMn> nhandler is the name he uses everything with ubuntu
<Rocket2DMn> everywhere*
<technomensch> anyway, Matt, as I was about to say earlier, about the Wiki Team home page
<technomensch> I've been playing around with it and was wondering what you might think of what I've done: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Home/PageDiscussion
<technomensch> still requires some more work
<mdke> technomensch: I think I still have the same comment as last time really. The current page is rather simpler and easier to parse, in my opinion. Don't forget that page isn't really intended to be easy to follow, it's for developers and contributors to quickly find the right page
<mdke> technomensch: but, since we don't take care of the team wiki, it's really an issue for the wider community, in particular the development team
<mdke> so you could discuss it with them
<technomensch> kk
<mdke> I like the tables on your page though, no so much the buttons
<mdke> s/no/not
<technomensch> I kinda liked the look of the marketing team's home page and wanted to go for their look
<mdke> consistency going down the page in terms of formatting is important, so if each section had those tables, then it would probably look cleaner
<mdke> at the moment, some sections have buttons and others have tables
<technomensch> I had tables originally if you look at the page history before I started yesterday.
<technomensch> I agree that it has to be consistent throughout the page.  it's still a work in progress
<mdke> yeah, I like that look more, especially if the tables were all the same size
<technomensch> the original one?
<mdke> you could probably do it in a big table split into sections actually
<technomensch> ok, I'll  play around with it
<mdke> technomensch: I was looking at revision 3
<technomensch> ok, thanks.  gtk.  if nothing else, this gave me an education in using images and manipulating tables
<mdke> although, I don't see too much wrong with the current homepage
<mdke> gtg for now, thanks for the chats
<technomensch> kkk
<technomensch> ta
<technomensch> I gotta go eat too
<technomensch> lata
#ubuntu-doc 2008-09-28
<little> Knock knock! Anybody in here?
<Atamira> lots of ppl here little , just idle
<Rocket2DMn> yeah this channel is slow to respond
<Atamira> well alot is said on emails mainly
<Rocket2DMn> yup, i cant follow all of it, but i follow whats important to me
<little> Ah, somebody responded! Still there?
<little> mdke: Are you active in here right now?
#ubuntu-doc 2009-09-21
 * ZachK18 is away: testing
 * ZachK18 is back (gone 00:00:04)
#ubuntu-doc 2009-09-22
<mpt> bhuvan, nixternal: I've just applied to subscribe to ubuntu-doc@, and I'm about to send a reply to mdke's message he CCed there
<bhuvan> mpt: checking ...
<bhuvan> mpt: looks like it does not need approval, you should be able to post
<bhuvan> let me know if you face any issue
<mpt> ok, ta
<ZachK18> anybody here?
<ZachK18> hello
<ZachK18> anybody?
<ZachK18> hello
<jdstrand> hi. I just noticed that https://help.ubuntu.com/community has tabs for 7.04 and 7.10, but not 8.10 and 9.04
<ZachK18> hmmm...i'll make sure to tell the right person
<ZachK18> hello dinda
<ZachK18> welcome
<dinda> ZachK18: howdy
<ZachK18> dinda, welcome to ubuntu-doc
<dinda> ZachK18: i've been here before ;)
<ZachK18> dinda, all the more awesome
 * ZachK18 is away: I'm busy...back later
<duanedesign> pleia2: ping
<pleia2> duanedesign: hey
<duanedesign> hey! wow that was quick
<duanedesign> :)
<pleia2> hehe
<duanedesign> my Padawan on BT is getting his feet wet with some wiki work
<duanedesign> pleia2: I hopped over here to see if i could find someone to give another opinion on the changes he wants to make. Just want to make sure jis first one goes well.
<pleia2> ah gotcha, I'm not official docteam, but I'm sure others around here could help if you gave some links
<duanedesign> pleia2: right, the page was https://help.ubuntu.com/community/OfficeApplications
<duanedesign> pleia2:  he was going to make the screenshots smaller and split it into two pages.
<pleia2> duanedesign: ah cool, you know who would be great to ask about this? Rocket2DMn
<pleia2> he'll be around this evening for the meeting, at least
<duanedesign> pleia2: good idea.
<pleia2> er, BT meeting
<duanedesign> thank you
<pleia2> sure thing :)
#ubuntu-doc 2009-09-23
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, FYI, we unstuck the thread in the Tutorials & Tips forum area since the information in it was outdated.  When you get around to writing another, just let me know and I'll be happy to stick it
<mdke> morning all
<mdke> sommer: just wanted to check you are ok with having a look at https://code.launchpad.net/~ttx/ubuntu-docs/serverguide-mods/+merge/12050 before string freeze next week. Let me know if not
<sommer> mdke: ya, my plan is to work on all those bugs today, and tomorrow... should be able to start this afternoon.
<mdke> sommer: awesome, thanks a lot
#ubuntu-doc 2009-09-24
<missaugustina> Howdy! I need some help with bzr
<missaugustina> I created a branch in lp and I'm trying to create the branch on my system.
<missaugustina> When I run the bzr branch command it keeps saying "Error not a branch"
<missaugustina> This is my branch: https://code.launchpad.net/~missaugustina/ubuntu-docs/usb-creator
<missaugustina> I need to create a local branch so I can push my changes to it
<missaugustina> bzr: ERROR: Not a branch: "bzr+ssh://bazaar.launchpad.net/~missaugustina/ubuntu-docs/usb-creator/".
<missaugustina> bzr: ERROR: Not a branch: "https://code.launchpad.net/~missaugustina/ubuntu-docs/".
<missaugustina> ok nm i have to create it as a new branch, i was following the wrong instructions
<missaugustina> Alright! got it working! https://code.launchpad.net/~missaugustina/ubuntu-docs/usb-creator
<missaugustina> I'll have the docbook tagged stuff up there soon.
<mdke> missaugustina: nice, I'll take a look when it is ready
<mdke> probably this weekend so we can get it into the ubuntu-docs branch
<mdke> missaugustina: probably the simplest way for you to do it would be to create a branch from the ubuntu-docs karmic branch, add your document using the same structure/format as similar documents (about-ubuntu is probably a good example) and then push that branch so that it can be easily merged
<mdke> that will also allow you to check it using our validate tool (scripts/validate.sh in the branch)
<missaugustina> OK I will definitely need help to make sure I'm doing it right.
<missaugustina> I created my own usb-creator branch just to have a place to put the tagged doc.
<mdke> missaugustina: no problem, I'm happy to help, and I'm sure others will be too
<missaugustina> Right now just the text is up there, untagged, in OpenOffice format
<mdke> yep
<mdke> do you also have a local copy of the ubuntu-docs karmic branch?
<missaugustina> yeah I am re-dowloading that now
<mdke> awesome
<missaugustina> I had to reinstall my system and getting bazaar re-set up took all morning haha
<mdke> ouch
<missaugustina> There are so many great quickstart guides for bazaar out there but nothing specific for ubuntu-docs, unless I just don't know where it is
<missaugustina> The version of bazaar I had from the repositories was incompatible so I had to re-set up from the Bazaar PPA
<missaugustina> I'm writing something up for myself as a reminder in case I ever have to do this again and can post it to the wiki somewhere when I'm done
<mdke> the bzr guide should be here - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/Repository
<mdke> if there is something you think could be added, feel free to suggest - we can always improve the info
<mdke> hmm, annoying that you couldn't use the ordinary bzr. I wonder if that is our fault
<missaugustina> k I will definitely. 2 things offhand is a quick note on how to back up from an existing rsa key. I backed mine up when I reinstalled so I didn't have to set that stuff up again.
<missaugustina> Second thing is setting up the Bzr PPA
<missaugustina> Since the versions were incompatible, or i was getting errors when trying to get the ubuntu docs branch
<mdke> the second thing is more worrying, for me. we're doing something wrong if the branch isn't compatible
<mdke> on the first thing, it's maybe a marginal user case, or something which we could link to another document for
<missaugustina> I will post the errors I got, I'm on Jaunty and was running Bzr .98
<missaugustina> or whatever is in the repositories
<missaugustina> KeyError: 'Bazaar repository format 2a (needs bzr 1.16 or later)\n'
<mdke> hmm
<missaugustina> Looks like it was Bazaar 1.13
<mdke> we should definitely fix that
<mdke> thanks for pointing it out
<missaugustina> NP I just thought we were supposed to be using the Bazaar PPA, not the official repositories and thought wow why isn't that documented anywhere??
<mdke> one way or the other we should fix it :)
<missaugustina> That wiki you linked is perfect, I think it's what I used the first time I set everything up.
<missaugustina> Yay finally got it all downloaded. OK so you were saying I should make my branch look like "about-ubuntu"
<mdke> I think that you should make changes directly to the branch you just downloaded
<mdke> so you would add a directory "usb-creator"
<mdke> and then you put your document in usb-creator/C/usb-creator.xml
<missaugustina> Oh right and the tools create the other docs
<mdke> how do you mean?
<missaugustina> In about-ubuntu there's a "po" folder
<mdke> oh yeah, don't worry about that
<missaugustina> with a *.pot document
<mdke> I'll deal with it
<missaugustina> What are those?
<mdke> those are for translations
<missaugustina> Ah ok
<missaugustina> And the *.omf file in the C directory ?
<mdke> that's used by yelp to show documents - you can create that too if you fancy giving it a go, otherwise I'm happy to do that
<missaugustina> I'll give it a shot
<mdke> about-ubuntu.xml is a good document to use as an example for yours because it is an <article> and will show you the header format that we use for our documents
<missaugustina> Where is the Doc Book tagging guide for Ubuntu docs?
<missaugustina> Yeah that's what I was going to draw from
<mdke> there is a sort of basic intro here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/Editing
<mdke> and here for checking: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/Checking
<missaugustina> I know HTML and I used Docbook like 10 yrs ago so it's just figuring out what tags you guys use
<missaugustina> Excellent! Thanks
<mdke> details of the tags are here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/StyleGuide/DocbookConventions
<mdke> that's not entirely complete, unfortunately, but if you read it, you're in good shape :)
<mdke> thanks very much for your work on this
<missaugustina> hey no problem! thx for letting me contribute!
<mdke> we love contributions :)
<mdke> ok, i'm off to bed, catch you again soon
<missaugustina> Thx for your help! Gnite!
#ubuntu-doc 2009-09-26
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, if I post a patch for bug 377039 this weekend, will it make it in before string freeze?
<ubot4> Launchpad bug 377039 in ubuntu-docs "Firewall documentation is outdated" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/377039
<Rocket2DMn> i have a patch ready to go, I'm just waiting for bodhi to review it before i post it
<missaugustina> In tagging Docbook, is there a macros type thing for the Ubuntu download website?
<missaugustina> I saw &ubuntu-web; for the Ubuntu website, is there something specific for the download site?
<dhillon-v10> Rocket2DMn: hi what's up
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: yep, subject to review
<mdke> missaugustina: yes, we use entities, you should have a look in libs/global.ent for those
<mdke> missaugustina: or libs/gnome-menus.ent for the menu entries
<mdke> missaugustina: feel free to add an entry for usb-creator if not there already
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, in the patch i put together, i included a couple links to community docs pages (like Gufw and UFW) since they have good documentation on using those tools, is that ok?
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: sure
<Rocket2DMn> i didnt want to explain UFW in the patch since it is command line, and the Gufw page has screenshtos
<Rocket2DMn> hi dhillon-v10 , not much up here, what about you
<dhillon-v10> <Rocket2DMn> nothing really, waiting for Phil to show up, he was going to talk to me today :)
<missaugustina> Great, I just have to add the entities and it will be tagged! I have been testing it in yelp to make sure my XML is correct. So far so good.
<missaugustina> I do have a question about uploading the branch. I created a usb-creator branch under my username
<Rocket2DMn> Do the sysadmins ever get to RT tickets?
<missaugustina> I have been pushing just the single files to that branch without including the full ubuntu-docs stuff
<missaugustina> I have another branch set up on my system labeled ubuntu-docs.usb-creator
<missaugustina> Can I push that to my usb-creator branch?
<missaugustina> I am still a little confused by bzr but I've used other version control systems before.
<missaugustina> Also another question, should I be setting usb-creator up as a standalone article with an article info tag like about-ubuntu, or should I use a chapter tag?
<dhillon-v10> philbull: what's up
<philbull> hey dhillon-v10
<dhillon-v10> finally got in touch with you
<dhillon-v10> so should we get started the personas
<philbull> sure
<philbull> sorry I'm late, traffic
<dhillon-v10> so I need to work on targetting my audience better
<philbull> I think so, yes
<philbull> you need to understand why people might be looking in the help
<philbull> this was for gnome-display-manager, wasn't it?
<dhillon-v10> yes, I tried to include dual monitoring but its about 5 pages long so it can't be condensed in 3 paras. I need help with that
<philbull> what version of Ubuntu do you have installed?
<dhillon-v10> 9.04
<philbull> OK, I have some example docs which will only work with the version of Yelp installed with 9.10 (latest development)
<dhillon-v10> I have 9.10 in a virtual machine
<philbull> yay!
<dhillon-v10> i can fire that up if its necessary
<philbull> any chance you could download the tarball from here?
<philbull> http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-doc-list/2009-September/msg00053.html
<philbull> (into the 9.10 VM)
<dhillon-v10> alright, just a sec. thanks
<philbull> also, did I send you a copy of some example personas?
<mdke> missaugustina: yes, as an article. on the bzr question, the best thing would be to add it to an ubuntu-docs branch and push the whole thing up
<dhillon-v10> <philbull> yes indeed I am looking at them
<mdke> missaugustina: (to a new branch)
<mdke> hey philbull
<philbull> hey mdke
<philbull> just going through some persona dev with dhillon-v10
<dhillon-v10> <mdke> hey what's up
<mdke> hi dhillon-v10
<philbull> dhillon-v10: ok, did you take a look through the personas?
<dhillon-v10> yes, I did but i am a little confused
<philbull> OK, what are you confused about?
<dhillon-v10> dual monitoring is popping up a lot but I can't possibly explain it in a few paragraphs
<philbull> that's normal
<philbull> what you're seeing is that dual-monitoring is a "theme" rather than one topic
<philbull> lots of people are having lots of dual-monitoring problems
<dhillon-v10> so, how should I got about including that in
<philbull> well, let's start off with the most common questions
<dhillon-v10> alright
<philbull> did you collect a list of common dual-monitor (DM) questions?
<dhillon-v10> most people actually don't know how to set it up, that's why i addressed it in general
<philbull> do you have an example of a user asking that question?
<dhillon-v10> the question were regarding monitors not being detected
<dhillon-v10> just a sec.
<philbull> it's important to see how users are phrasing the question
<dhillon-v10> here's one: hmmm, i had a similar problem, but i have an nvidia card and bypassed the ubuntu control panel and used the nvidia control panel directly to force it to work with my dual monitors (which were displaying at an improper resolution like yours). but since you're running ATI, i'm not sure how to help you. i suspect you'd have to go in and fiddle with the xorg config files manually
<philbull> that's not really phrased as a question, more as advice
<philbull> do you have a simpler example, phrased more like a question?
<philbull> e.g. "i can't get both of my monitors to work"
<dhillon-v10> does anybody have display problems with intel graphics and dual monitors? i can't access the top panel on my left screen, and the wallpaper on my right screen is not displayed properly
<philbull> ok, and another one or two?
<dhillon-v10> just a sec. something unexpected poped up, sorry
<dhillon-v10> phil, I am really sorry but I have to go, can we talk about this sometime later or you can send me some general instructions in mail
<philbull> no problem, how is some time in the week for you?
<philbull> I'll try to come up with something a bit more organised next time
<philbull> (just drop me an email)
<dhillon-v10> <philbull> thank you very much and sorry for wasting your time, next saturday will be fine
<philbull> dhillon-v10: no problem, not a waste of time at all!
<dhillon-v10> thanks bye
<missaugustina> I'm pushing my branch of ubuntu-docs with the usb-creator docs added in, and the entity entry added for usb-creator
<missaugustina> The branch is lp:~missaugustina/ubuntu-docs/usb-creator
<Rocket2DMn> I think bug 138288 can be closed - the pag ein question is linked from the front page of the community docs
<ubot4> Launchpad bug 138288 in ubuntu-docs "Eye Candy page not easily accessible" [Wishlist,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/138288
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, what do you think?
<Rocket2DMn> or do we want links to it from inside the system docs?
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: I agree. The general point in the bug about the separation between h.u.c and h.u.c/c is something for a spec, I'd say
<mdke> missaugustina: great, thanks - I'll take a look shortly
<missaugustina> its still pushing
<Rocket2DMn> ok mdke , you want to close it or shall I?  Fix Released?
<mdke> missaugustina: cool
<missaugustina> I decided to do a push --overwrite to my branch and it's still working
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: I'll do it, I think it's a "won't fix"
<Rocket2DMn> ok, thanks mdke
<missaugustina> nm it hung so i ctl-c'ed out of it. now trying to break the lock on it.
<missaugustina> I did a merge from the ubuntu-doc branch to make sure my stuff was current and now bzr is hanging when trying to push
<missaugustina> I should just delete my branch and re-create it
<missaugustina> ok did that now its updating
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: can you run the validate script from our repo on the newtoubuntu file that gives you a problem?
<mdke> seems ok in our repo
<Rocket2DMn> you mean the bug i just filed against gnome-user-docs?
<mdke> yes (it's actually an ubuntu-docs file)
<Rocket2DMn> ah, oops, it was in the foo/bar/gnome path
<mdke> they all are :)
<Rocket2DMn> what do you mean from the repo?
<mdke> scripts/validate.sh
<mdke> or just the command "xmllint --noout --xinclude --noent --postvalid"
<mdke> (followed by the path to the file)
<Rocket2DMn> i booted off the livecd on the laptop, do you want me to boot back into it? or just test in my local copy of the ubuntu-docs dev branch on my desktop here?
<mdke> if we are to debug the bug, you need to try the livecd again, sorry
<Rocket2DMn> ok ill reboot it now, np, that laptop is used for dev testing
<mdke> thanks
<mdke> seems to work ok in my vbox with karmic
<missaugustina> I am not sure if my workflow in bzr is correct. I created a branch from the ubuntu-doc karmic branch. I added the usb-creator stuff and pushed that branch to the one I created under my username in Launchpad.
<missaugustina> https://code.launchpad.net/~missaugustina/ubuntu-docs/usb-creator
<mdke> missaugustina: I don't think it is, I'm just trying to merge your branch and am having some trouble
<missaugustina> Everything is up there including the revision history for ubuntu-docs
<mdke> missaugustina: what seems to have happened is that you got the wrong ubuntu-doc karmic branch, unfortunately
<missaugustina> Yarr
<missaugustina> Which karmic branch do i need to get?
<mdke> you got lp:ubuntu/ubuntu-docs rather than lp:ubuntu-docs
<mdke> it's not your fault at all
<missaugustina> ohhh ok
<mdke> unfortunately, the former one was created by the people working on importing ubuntu source packages in bzr
<missaugustina> np i will try again. Is that the right workflow?
<mdke> so it's rather confusing, nothing you could be blamed for
<mdke> everything we use is at code.launchpad.net/ubuntu-doc-project
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, it seems that I'm not able to reproduce the problem on this boot into the livecd.  I was able to reproduce it during my last session
<mdke> missaugustina: yes, the workflow is exactly right
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: weird
<missaugustina> mdke: awesome. Should my branch be ~missaugustina/ubuntu-docs/usb-creator or ~missaugustina/ubuntu-doc-project/usb-creator
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, problem with squashfs not setting up the filesystem correctly?
<mdke> missaugustina: the former
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: possibly but I have no idea how that works
<Rocket2DMn> me neither
<mdke> missaugustina: FWIW you can push directly to that location without setting it up in the web browser first
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: I'd say close the bug unless you can reproduce it again, the file is ok in karmic
<Rocket2DMn> k
<missaugustina> mdke: I don't have to do the "Register a branch" dialogue to push my changes?
<mdke> missaugustina: nope, just "bzr push lp:~missaugustina/etc"
<mdke> missaugustina: but in this case, delete the existing branch first through the web interface
<missaugustina> mdke: yeah I already deleted it. wow that's good to know!
<mdke> :)
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, any idea if bug 118741 was ever implemented?
<ubot4> Launchpad bug 118741 in ubuntu-docs "External links in stable docs should be under Ubuntu control" [Wishlist,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/118741
<Rocket2DMn> i dont see anything on the spec to think that it has
<mdke> no, don't think so
<mdke> I was never really convinced by it
<Rocket2DMn> I can see the argument behind it, I'm also not sure if there is worth implementing though.  If a link is broken, it's broken.
<Rocket2DMn> implementing it could mean that you could block a site from showing though, say if it become a porn site like we saw earlier.
<mdke> yeah, but I'm not convinced that the end result justified the work involved
<Rocket2DMn> would be less useful on the h.u.c version of the syste mdocs though, people would complain about redirecting links and not being able to see where the link actually goes
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, do you still want to keep the bug open?
<mdke> hum
<mdke> guess not, I'll post there shortly
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, I'm also looking at bug 139246.  Are we planning on updating anythin gin the system docs for that?  We can still try to update the community docs, I'm mostly curious about the sys doc side of it
<ubot4> Launchpad bug 139246 in ubuntu-docs "Suspend help files are outdated" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/139246
<missaugustina> OK got the right branch dl'ed and am now pushing to my branch lp:~missaugustina/ubuntu-docs/usb-creator
<missaugustina> mdke: ok it's been pushed
<mdke> missaugustina: great, I'll check it out probably tomorrow
<mdke> thanks
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: I don't see how that can go in the system docs
<missaugustina> mdke: awesome, feel free to offer any suggestions or make any changes to the XML. I just want to make sure what I'm submitting is consistent with what's there :D
<Rocket2DMn> agreed mdke , do you want to keep the bug open for the wiki pages (which are tagged)?
<Rocket2DMn> I dont really have any opinion about it, we do allow bug reports on community docs pages.  Is anything going to change now that we have the Tag system?
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: up to you
<Rocket2DMn> ok, I guess we'll leave it open until we can centralize some decent documentation on suspend/resume
<Rocket2DMn> at least something to tie in with the kernel team's pages on it
<mdke> fair enough
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: thanks for catching up on some of these aged bugs :)
<mdke> missaugustina: something for you to work on if you like as a "get used to docbook test"
<mdke> missaugustina: if you run "scripts/validate.sh usb-creator/C/usb-creator.xml" you will be shown some errors in the docbook
<mdke> missaugustina: understanding them is the tricky bit...
<mdke> missaugustina: each error tells you the line number in the xml which has a problem
<mdke> missaugustina: the good news is that most of the problems have the same cause - you need to nest a <para> tag inside a <listitem> tag
<missaugustina> mdke: oh ok, forgot to validate. I opened them in Yelp to make sure they displayed correctly and thought that's all I needed to do.
<mdke> sorry, computer crashed, now back
<mdke> missaugustina: yelp is a bit kinder, it displays invalid docbook too
<mdke> missaugustina: the good news is that most of the problems have the same cause - you need to nest a <para> tag inside a <listitem> tag
<mdke> the error message looks horrible but it's nice and simple in the end
<missaugustina> yeah I'm trying to output the results to a file so I can read it
<missaugustina> adding --output FILE to the xmllint command isn't working nor is > FILE
<mdke> once you've been through and added <para> tags to all the listitem tags, then there are only like 3 errors or so
<mdke> not sure why the pipe doesn't work I'm afraid
<missaugustina> > output_file 2>&1
<missaugustina> that works
<mdke> ok, your command line skills are way better than mine :)
<missaugustina> nah i just googled it ;)
<missaugustina> I hoped the sh script and saw it was calling xmllint so looked at the man page which showed an arg --output FILE but that was working for some reason
<missaugustina> *opened, not hoped
<missaugustina> wasn't working
<missaugustina> Fixing those things now.
<mdke> awesome
<missaugustina> fixed.
<missaugustina> pushing changes now
<missaugustina> re-ran xmllint and it validated
<missaugustina> well, didn't have any output so I assume that means it validated ;)
<mdke> yes
<mdke> good job :)
<XDevHald> Hey everyone, I was guided here from the wiki page so I can re-join the documentation page. Are there any openings?
<mdke> XDevHald: we have infinite openings!!
<mdke> all contributions are welcomed
<XDevHald> Excellent. I have been in the group before about 3 years ago, so this should be fun.
<XDevHald> What's the initial project?
<mdke> have you changed your nick?
<mdke> maybe I'd remember you
<XDevHald> I sure have, first name and last is Steven Myers
 * mdke searches his memory banks
<mdke> XDevHald: ok so our team documentation is all at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam - hopefully there is enough material to get you started and find a task you are interested on
<XDevHald> Found my dirt mound. Thanks Matt :-)
<mdke> no worries
<mdke> missaugustina: looking very good
<j1mc> hi mdke
<mdke> j1mc: hi!
<j1mc> :)
<j1mc> i'm committing some Xubuntu doc stuff today.
<j1mc> not a lot of changes this go-round, but . . . at least some updates
<j1mc> i'll be reviewing the Ubuntu docs for applicable changes, too.
<mdke> missaugustina: I'm going to make a few small tweaks if that is ok, but nothing much. One point to raise with you is that you refer to the app as "USB Creator" throughout. Shouldn't it be called "USB Startup Disk Creator" as with the menu entry?
<mdke> j1mc: great stuff
<missaugustina> mdke: you are right, the package is called usb-creator which is why I called it that.
<mdke> missaugustina: you can mark your branch as "merged" now btw, awesome :)
<missaugustina> mdke: OK thx :D
<mdke> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-doc/ubuntu-docs/ubuntu-karmic/revision/351 :)
<missaugustina> yay! Yeah it's already labeled as merged. Sweet!
<missaugustina> Now to finish up my Install Guide Docs and then finish editing the Packaging Guide
<mdke> is the install guide going ahead?
<mdke> I haven't heard anything about it on the mailing list
<missaugustina> Me either. I figure I might as well finish my docs. I think the last thing I heard was that it should at least be on the wiki
<missaugustina> The docs I have to finish are basically mish mash of stuff that's already been written in other places. I can get them done in an afternoon, so might as well.
<missaugustina> Do you know what team manages the Packaging Guide? is that us? Nathan Handler is the one who I was originally working with with regards to editing.
<mdke> missaugustina: dholbach is the guy to talk to, he runs the wiki version of the PG as far as I know
<mdke> but Nathan too
<j1mc> that sounds right
<missaugustina> OK I will shoot him an email just to let him know I've been working on it.
<j1mc> :)
<missaugustina> With wiki stuff it can get a little crazy because you can have 3 or 4 people working on the same thing.
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> the PG has an insane structure of includes and stuff which makes it rather odd
<mdke> but there is a "Complete" version
<missaugustina> Yep
<missaugustina> Yeah I was working with the complete text and need to propose restructuring the sections
<missaugustina> Typos in the commands, references to tools that are obsolete
<missaugustina> also incomplete instructions
<mdke> wow, great project
<missaugustina> I completely rewrote the Basic section and simplified it
<mdke> definitely something to take up with Daniel and the motu team generally
<missaugustina> Yeah good point. I was working with Nathan on it and wasn't sure if there was anyone else I should be talking to.
<mdke> missaugustina: you can see the changes I've quickly made to the usb-creator doc at revision 352 of the ubuntu-docs branch
<mdke> I've changed a couple of the admonitions, which might be a bit subjective, but I hope that's ok
<missaugustina> mdke: Looks good to me!
<missaugustina> mdke: I just guessed at the "notes"
<mdke> :)
<mdke> cool
<missaugustina> mdke: seriously, I have no ego with my work. I care more about consistency with the other  docs and overall usability than anything else.
<mdke> you rock
<mdke> ok, so that will be in the next upload of ubuntu-docs and you'll see it in karmic
<mdke> thanks again
<missaugustina> Yay! :D
<missaugustina> Np, I am just working on going down my list to help out in anyway I can.
<missaugustina> I am working on my tech writing cert so anything I can do to help out helps me too :)
<mdke> cool
<missaugustina> Also I am unemployed right now so this is like my full time job ;) haha
<mdke> I remember the days...
<mdke> ok, time for bed, see yall soon
<missaugustina> Gnite! Thx for your help!
<mdke> you too
#ubuntu-doc 2009-09-27
<HeyJued> Hello
<Rocket2DMn> uh oh, do we have system documentation on grub2?
<Rocket2DMn> for karmic that is
<pmatulis> does the documentation project touch man pages?
<Rocket2DMn> pmatulis, not usually, those are typically the domain of the package it applies to
<pmatulis> puttering around here for the first time, first file i checked does not validate.  (ubuntu-docs/serverguide/C/clustering.xml)   can someone quickly say what is wrong with line 52?
<Rocket2DMn> pmatulis, are you working on that file?
<pmatulis> Rocket2DMn: i did make a trivial correction.  not line 52 however
<Rocket2DMn> pmatulis, the problem is that you are validating directly on that file, you should be validating on serverguide/C/serverguide.xml
<pmatulis> Rocket2DMn: ah ok
<pmatulis> Rocket2DMn: got it, thanks
<Rocket2DMn> sure thing
<pmatulis> Rocket2DMn: i'm going through the motions for the first time, is making a patch for a very trivial update acceptable?
<Rocket2DMn> for the development branch, sure
<Rocket2DMn> String Freeze is in a few days, so any patches need to be in before then
<pmatulis> are you saying that after SF, the online serverguide, for instance, can no longer be changed?
<Rocket2DMn> pmatulis, after string freeze, you need an exception to change something
<pmatulis> ok
<seidos> greetings
<j1mc> hi seidos
<seidos> j1mc: I'd like to join a team
<j1mc> seidos: cool - what team would you like to join?
<seidos> j1mc: I was thinking the one that I could do the most good in.  I was thinking marketing and/or documentation, though I'm open to other options
<j1mc> ok... sounds good.
<seidos> j1mc: what team(s) are you member of?
<j1mc> do you know what you might want to document, or are you not sure?
<j1mc> what ideas did you have in mind?
<Zachk18> welcome seidos
<seidos> ideas re: documentation, I don't really have much in that regard
<seidos> Zachk18: greetings
<Zachk18> seidos, so you like documentation?
<seidos> documentation is great :)
<Zachk18> ok do you have a wiki page made?
<Zachk18> also do you have a launchpad account and have you signed the COC
<j1mc> seidos: do you use ubuntu, kubuntu, xubuntu, or another flavor of ubuntu?
<seidos> hmmm let's see, I'm on launchpad
<Zachk18> j1mc, you got this? if so i'm gonna check the unanswered posts on the forums
<seidos> I use ubuntu
<seidos> I do have a page on launchpad, but not sure what the url is off hand
<seidos> and ubuntu server
<Zachk18> seidos, have you signed the Code of Conduct?
<seidos> Zachk18: no on the CoC
<Zachk18> ok well you should do that and also join the #ubuntu-beginners channel and ask for help with setting up a wiki page
<seidos> all right
<seidos> maybe a document for how to join an ubuntu team
<j1mc> Zachk18: those sound like good tips... good ways to start.
<Zachk18> j1mc, i try
<seidos> https://launchpad.net/~kevindemarest
<Zachk18> seidos, were you asking for a page to go to? or suggesting a new page you would like to make
<j1mc> seidos: do you have any kind of special experience thus far, or are you more just getting started?
<seidos> Zachk18: when?
<Zachk18> j1mc, good question
<Zachk18> seidos, when what
<seidos> j1mc: special experience?
<Zachk18> seidos, he meant do you have anything your especially good at or some field that you have more experience in than others
<j1mc> seidos: like, do you know a lot about a certain linux-related topic or language, or are you just getting started?
<seidos> not really
<seidos> I'm not particularly good at anything.
<j1mc> :)
<Zachk18> seidos, then you need a mentor
<Zachk18> seidos, how old are you
<seidos> but I suppose I may find it difficult to quantify my skills
<seidos> are you speaking particularly about linux?
<seidos> correction, we speaking
<seidos> Zachk18: I'm 30
<missaugustina> Hi seidos, welcome!
<Zachk18> seidos, ok...well you should request a mentor from the BT team
<seidos> hi missaugustina
<j1mc> seidos: here is some info for you: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/
<Zachk18> if i was a master i would take you on
<seidos> Zachk18: what is BT?
<Zachk18> Beginners Team
<seidos> thank you
<missaugustina> I don't think age has anything to do with anything :) Thanks for your interest in the team!
<Zachk18> missaugustina, i asked because of the ynu group
<missaugustina> Seidos, there are some great starting places for getting involved with the Doc team
<seidos> whatever works :)
<missaugustina> This is a list of current tasks - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/Tasks
<missaugustina> It's not totally up to date but it's a good starting point
<Zachk18> well just start with the different teams and see what you think you might fit in with best...there is always a place for somebody
<missaugustina> On that page is a link to bugs in the documentation
<j1mc> missaugustina is right. :) there are lots of resources.
<j1mc> here's some info on some of the documentation related teams and what they work on: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Organization
<missaugustina> A great way to get started with the doc team is to look at the list of bugs and see if there's something you'd like to work on.
<Zachk18> seidos, if you would like to see some links go here to my page.... https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Zachk18
<missaugustina> Sometimes there are really simple things like simple copy editing. Other times there are opportunities for bigger projects.
<seidos> ~missaugustina: I worked on a bug a little while ago that was listed on launchpad.
<missaugustina> You should also scan the archives of the doc team mailing list and see if any projects are being discussed that look interesting to you.
<missaugustina> Awesome! Was it a doc team bug or for another team?
<seidos> how do you organize all the pages?
<seidos> that people send you?
<seidos> you being anyone :)
<missaugustina> In the doc team there are two different sets of documentation.
<missaugustina> System docs and the Wiki
<seidos> missaugustina: it was a bug listed for an atheros wifi problem
<seidos> missaugustina: system docs?
<missaugustina> The system docs are what you see in the Gnome helper application.
 * seidos clicks system and looks for docs :)
<missaugustina> So if you go to Ubuntu help that's what we do :)
<seidos> !gnomehelper
<ubot4> Factoid 'gnomehelper' not found
<j1mc> !yelp
<ubot4> Factoid 'yelp' not found
<j1mc> :/
<seidos> !syntax
<ubot4> Hi! I'm #ubuntu-doc's favorite infobot, you can search my brain yourself at http://ubottu.com/factoids.cgi - Usage info: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBots
<missaugustina> Ubuntu Help Center?
<missaugustina> !ubuntu-help
<ubot4> Factoid 'ubuntu-help' not found
<missaugustina> hrm
<j1mc> !nixternal
<ubot4> Oh no!  The pointy-clicky Windows7 lover has arrived!  He's rumoured to be giving out free money, and help on the MIRC client too! <nixternal> I LOVE MIRC!!!
<missaugustina> Go to System > Help and Support
<seidos> ah
<seidos> I never use that
<missaugustina> That's the system docs :)
<j1mc> :)
<j1mc> lol
<seidos> interesting
<missaugustina> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation
<missaugustina> Information on the wiki docs is here - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Wiki
<seidos> oh yeah, I did update a how to
<missaugustina> The pages that are submitted to the System Docs are submitted through a version control system called Bazaar
<seidos> for setting up netboot/pxe
<missaugustina> The pages submitted to the Wiki are managed by the wiki engine, MoinMoin
<seidos> I just changed gutsy to hardy
<seidos> forgot
<missaugustina> Are  you using a netbook?
<missaugustina> I am too!
<seidos> I am not
<seidos> weird
<seidos> missaugustina: you are too what?
<missaugustina> Oh I thought you were using a netbook
<seidos> missaugustina: why?
<missaugustina> Nevermind, you updated a how to on the wiki?
<seidos> missaugustina: yeah
<seidos> I changed one word
<missaugustina> Ok well that's a start :)
<seidos> hmmmm
<seidos> someone mentioned mentorship
<missaugustina> If that's the kind of stuff you are interested in doing more of, then the Doc team is the place for you :)
<missaugustina> It's kind of informal.
<missaugustina> Basically just pick something that you want to work on and ask the list for help.
<seidos> I want to do everything, but I have to start somewhere
<missaugustina> Or get on IRC
<seidos> all right, thank you for your time
<missaugustina> Are there any subject areas you're particularly interested in?
<seidos> I get the feeling I'm taking you away from something
<seidos> Xorg/gnome
<seidos> what about yourself?
<seidos> I'm particularly interested in results
<missaugustina> The current projects I'm working on are on my wiki page - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AugustinaBlair/
<missaugustina> Results?
<seidos> accomplishments
<seidos> accomplishing
<missaugustina> Well if you're interested in Xorg/Gnome, definitely post to the ubuntu-doc list if you want to help out with those docs.
<missaugustina> Phil Bull is also on the Gnome Doc team and might have some suggestions :)
<seidos> I need to read everything y'all gave me
<seidos> brb
<missaugustina> OK, well enjoy! And feel free to hop on IRC or ping the mailing list if you have any questions.
<seidos> I'm always on
<seidos> thank you
<XDevHald> mdke: You around?
<XDevHald> Anyone available?
<Rocket2DMn> I'm sure mdke is asleep, what can I do for ya XDevHald ?
<j1mc> hi Rocket2DMn
<Rocket2DMn> hey j1mc , how you doing
<j1mc> good thx :)
<XDevHald> Hey Rocket, just need some guidance on what needs to be done. I've been in this project 3 years ago, but need an update of what needs to be worked on.
<j1mc> you?
<Rocket2DMn> j1mc, watching my Trojans beat up on washington state
<Rocket2DMn> XDevHald, well bugs are tracked here - https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-docs
<j1mc> :)
<Rocket2DMn> XDevHald, string freeze is Oct1, so anything that gets done on system docs needs to be in before then
<XDevHald> Ah the Karmic release
<Rocket2DMn> XDevHald, also see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/Tasks
<Rocket2DMn> yeah XDevHald , Karmic is fast approaching
<XDevHald> Aye
<XDevHald> Lookin forward to it
<Rocket2DMn> XDevHald, if you want to jump into something right away, I just filed a bug a bit ago for getting Grub2 documentation written
<Rocket2DMn> bug 437446
<ubot4> Launchpad bug 437446 in ubuntu-docs "Need documentation on Grub2" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/437446
<XDevHald> Connor?
<Rocket2DMn> yes
<XDevHald> Ok, I'm Steven
<Rocket2DMn> good to meet you steven
<XDevHald> This was talked about earlier today for Grub2 not being in documentation for Karmic. (You as well)
<Rocket2DMn> and welcome back :)
<Rocket2DMn> XDevHald, was it really?  I didn't catch that discussion
<XDevHald> Thanks. Glad to be back 3 years later
<XDevHald> Yeah, one sec
<XDevHald> Nevermind, chat broke off...
<XDevHald> Hat xChat
<XDevHald> Hate*
<Rocket2DMn> lol, yeah we had some discussions in here earlier today, guess I missed that one
<XDevHald> Hehe sorry.
<Rocket2DMn> what was the summary of the discussion?  Did they recognize that we dont have any grub2 documentation?
<XDevHald> one sec wife is talking
<XDevHald> Wife is trying to get me to have another baby in 5 years, she's crazy...
<XDevHald> Women...
<XDevHald> Anywho, sorry went off topic. The discussion was about implementing the documentation for full release on Karmic with Grub2 provided, it didn't go into extent for the full documentary and that was when it cut me off.
<Rocket2DMn> well I think there just needs to be mention of it where there is currently documentation on grub
<Rocket2DMn> if nothing else, link to documentation somewhere else
<Rocket2DMn> just cant expect beginners to know the difference between grub and grub2, so pointing out that there is a difference and that they are modified differently is important
<XDevHald> I'm reading the document for this on Grub2 and the difference is there, but not recommended for beginners.
<Rocket2DMn> right, but grub2 will be stnadard on new installs of Karmic, so it needs to be there
<XDevHald> Ah ok, didn't know that part.
<XDevHald> Thought this was an option for Karmic upgrading.
<Rocket2DMn> yeah hav ea look at http://www.ubuntu.com/testing/karmic/alpha6
<Rocket2DMn> people who upgrade will keep their pre-existing bootloader
<Rocket2DMn> fresh installs will use grub2
<XDevHald> Here's the deal though, this upgrade for Alpha 6 knocks out the bootloader for dualboot if you have more than one OS correct?
<Rocket2DMn> um, not that i've heard
<Rocket2DMn> is that true?
<XDevHald> Ok, let me show you.
<Rocket2DMn> it may be that during development it does
 * XDevHald nods his head very strongly
<Rocket2DMn> during stable release, grub2 should only be installed if you do a fresh install of karmic (that includes if you are dual booting)
<XDevHald> Sounds good.
<Rocket2DMn> if I've misunderstood the intention, by all means correct me
<XDevHald> When installing Ubuntu from Alpha 6 in a dual-boot configuration with another operating system, such as Windows Vista, the grub2 configuration will not present an option to boot to the other OS. Investigation of this issue is ongoing. (430141)
<XDevHald> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/430141
<ubot4> Launchpad bug 430141 in ubiquity "Vista is not showing up in grub2" [High,Fix released]
<XDevHald> I think you already knew this one.
<Rocket2DMn> ah ok
<Rocket2DMn> i havent tested with a dual boot, but i think i heard that.  Looks like it was fixed though
<XDevHald> I hope so, cause this is keeping me from grabbing alpha 6 with XP on dualboot
<Rocket2DMn> If you get a daily build, it should be OK i think
<XDevHald> Ok. With the Nvidia drivers, has this been touched for Xorg? The 2.6.x.-31-generic is not compatible for some reason.
<XDevHald> Pulls up a black screen with the back end showing scroll lines.
<Rocket2DMn> I'm not sure, restricted drivers always seem to be a problem in dev testing.  my testing laptop uses open source radeon drivers
<XDevHald> I'll stick with 9.04 for now.
<XDevHald> <Rocket2DMn> XDevHald, if you want to jump into something right away, I just filed a bug a bit ago for getting Grub2 documentation written
<XDevHald> <Rocket2DMn> bug 437446
<ubot4> Launchpad bug 437446 in ubuntu-docs "Need documentation on Grub2" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/437446
<XDevHald> How do you want this documented?
<Rocket2DMn> XDevHald, i listed xml files that i saw reference to grub in
<Rocket2DMn> I would think that anywhere it talks about configuring grub, there should be mention of grub2 as well
<Rocket2DMn> Since we're so close to string freeze, I don't think it needs to be advanced.  It would be cool to have documentation mirroring what exists for grub, but if that's not feasible, then just a mention and a link to external documentaiton would be ok
<Rocket2DMn> I think we could probably make a Community Docs page for it.  For now it can redirect to the team wiki page i gave in the bug
<Rocket2DMn> I know some people who can populate the page with some basic info though
<Rocket2DMn> we can put a wiki page here - https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Grub2
<Rocket2DMn> and redirect it to the team wiki until it gets real info on it
<Rocket2DMn> I'll do that now
<Rocket2DMn> ok, the redirect is in place
<XDevHald> ;-)
<XDevHald> I am currently pulling Alpha 6 from the release distro repo for testing, and leaving the generic -15 from 2.6.x so it doesn't pull me under. This way I can do some testing with grub2
<XDevHald> With the wiki page, I'll do as you requested and start on it tomorrow morning.
<Rocket2DMn> sounds good XDevHald , thanks for contributing!
<XDevHald> Anytime bro. My head is fried from today and if you as if this went over my head, it didn't I am just cooked.
<Rocket2DMn> understood, take it easy dude
<XDevHald> You too.
<LaserJock> I need some wiki help
<LaserJock> I'm trying to get a full list of Edubuntu wiki pages, but the CategoryEdubuntu page only lists some I think
<LaserJock> is there some way to get Edubuntu/*
<Rocket2DMn> LaserJock, have a look at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/TitleIndex#idxE
<XDevHald> Rocket2dMn: Give me a few mins and I'll work on that wiki discussion from last night on Grub2.
<Rocket2DMn> XDevHald, groovy
<Rocket2DMn> you can post a patch on the bug and somebody with privileges will commit it if they approve
<XDevHald> Sounds good.
<j1mc> hey all: check out a working draft of the xubuntu-docs start page: http://emonk.fi/open/xubuntu/9.10/Documentation/Startpage/xubuntu-index.html
<j1mc> this is the lead-in page before you actually get to the system docs.
<j1mc> it won't be up on xubuntu.org, but is included as part of the system docs.
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, I posted a patch for the bug report about firewall documentation.  I was hoping to get bodhi's approval before I posted it, but real life concerns have kept him away
<cameron_> Hello, does anyone know if it's possible to include js in the wiki to redirect different ubuntu variants based off of user agents?
<Flannel> cameron_: I don't believe so
<cameron_> Flannel, that's what I thought, because of security concerns, but it was worth a try. Thasnks!
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: fine, I'll have a look at some stage
<j1mc> hi all
<jjesse> hello :)
<j1mc> hey jjesse :)
<mdke> hey chaps
<jjesse> hey j1mc and mdke
<j1mc> i'm so excited about the updates for the xubuntu docs start page.
<jjesse> yay
<mdke> :)
<j1mc> pasi lallihano is a genius
<mdke> looks good
<Rocket2DMn> j1mc, that page looks nice
<j1mc> yeah.  the IRC link to the Xubuntu chan brings up the Freenode web chat with a random "xubuntuweb-XXX" username, too.
<j1mc> and brings them right into #xubuntu
<mdke> clever
<j1mc> and the links to the doc sections will display in 1, 2, or 3 columns depending on the user's screen resolution.
<j1mc> so it will still work ok for small screens
<j1mc> he did all of that in about half a day.
<j1mc> ok, i'll be quiet now. :)
<mdke> impressive stuff :)
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: is there any point keeping firestarter in the section if it is no longer updated? I'd tend just to recommend gufw
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, it is still in the repositories
<Rocket2DMn> I thought it best to not take out existing documentation if it wasn't in the way, it should be OK to provide options
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: ok, I'm going to overrule you there, sorry :p
<mdke> bodhi.zazen made a good case for removing it in the bug too
<Rocket2DMn> ok
<Rocket2DMn> you want me to adjust the patch?
<mdke> no thanks, I've committed it already
<mdke> i have one further question though
<Rocket2DMn> did you take it out then?
<mdke> yes, I committed your patch and then did some changes afterwards
<Rocket2DMn> ok
<mdke> right at the beginning, is it worth trying to explain whether and when people will need a firewall? like "if you connect to the internet using a router, you will not normally need a firewall because the router provides a firewall automatically?"
<mdke> bad language, but you get the point
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: what do you think?
<Rocket2DMn> give me a moment, I'm trying to organize my thoughts on that question
<mdke> sorry
<Rocket2DMn> It depends on what you think the knowledge level is of people using that documentation I guess
<Rocket2DMn> Would you also explain how to check your router's configuration?
<mdke> quite a few might not know what a router is
<Rocket2DMn> yeah, you're suddenly talking about hardware in software documentation
<mdke> but reading it as it is now, they might also think "omg I need a firewall immediately", when they don't
<mdke> it can't hurt, I suppose
<Rocket2DMn> The point is valid, and may be good for expanding on firewall documentation.  I know bodhi would have a field day with that
<mdke> I might try and find a way to mention it
<Rocket2DMn> He could write a book on dealing witjh firewalls, intrusion detection, security, etc
<mdke> heh
<Rocket2DMn> But yeah, if you want to start down that path, we can
<Rocket2DMn> The patch I gave was intended to be something quick to get in before string freeze
<mdke> I would only add a sentence at most, I think
<mdke> lemme see
<Rocket2DMn> hmm, the thing is that linux is locked down by default, so installing a firewall configuration app (like gufw) is actually opening ports rather than blocking them
<Rocket2DMn> if you wanted to add something, perhaps something along the lines of: "Most routers have hardware firewalls built in, so if you use one on your home network, the chances are that you don't need to configure a software firewall unless you are planning to open ports"
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> in that case, the section kinda has the wrong premise
<mdke> in the sense that it looks like something you can do to keep your computer safe
<mdke> whereas actually it will help you make it less safe ;)
<mdke> ok, I'm going to change the section title back to your version then
<Rocket2DMn> what had you changed it to?
<mdke> "Set up a firewall"
<mdke> (the previous title)
<mdke> so Ubuntu automatically blocks access by default?
<Rocket2DMn> it should, I could nmap my alpha6 install to see what happens
<Rocket2DMn> `lsof -i -n -P` doesnt show anything
<Rocket2DMn> well there are some open ports it looks like
<mdke> so do programs like vino or openssh or whatever open the ports up?
<Rocket2DMn> http://paste.ubuntu.com/279935/
<Rocket2DMn> seems to have aborted, let me try from the othe rlaptop
<Rocket2DMn> hmm, same thing
<mdke> what do you think of this as a first para
<mdke>  <para>Ubuntu automatically protects your computer from unauthorized access by people on the Internet or your network. Certain programs or services which use the Internet may require you to relax this rule in order for them to work. To do so, you can set up a <emphasis>firewall</emphasis>. If you use a router to connect to the Internet, you may already have a firewall enabled in that router. This section deals with setting up a firewall on Ubuntu.</para
<Rocket2DMn> That looks pretty good.  Do we want to point out that the hardware firewall ina router protects your LAN against the outside world, but not specifically your machine?  There could still be threats from inside your network, like if a windows machine on it has been compromised
<mdke> I'll see if I can get something in
<Rocket2DMn> ok
<mdke> but I think we're saying that Ubuntu automatically protects against such threats in the first sentence
<Rocket2DMn> Yeah, but that is a pretty bold statement.
<Rocket2DMn> Out of the box, Ubuntu isn't perfect on security
<mdke> perhaps we shouldn't say it then
<Rocket2DMn> agreed
<mdke> ok, let's try again :)
<mdke>  <para>You may wish to install a firewall to protect your computer against unauthorized access by people on the Internet or your network. Firewalls block connections to your computer from unknown sources, which helps to prevent security breaches. If you use a router to connect to the Internet, you may already have a firewall enabled in that router which regulates connections from the Internet to your network. This section deals with setting up a firewal
<Rocket2DMn> That sounds better I think.  The only thing that caught my eye was "enabled in that router"
<Rocket2DMn> I don't have a suggested change off the top of my head, so I think that should work fine
<mdke> If you use a router to connect to the Internet, the router may already have a firewall configured which regulates connections from the Internet to your network.
<Rocket2DMn> excellent
<mdke> ok, good to go
<mdke> thank very much for your work on that, it's great to have that section updated
<Rocket2DMn> No problem, bodhi provided the original text and I went from there.  Thanks for your feedback as well, I think the section is better off now than it was just with my patch
<mdke> np
<Rocket2DMn> XDevHald, did you get around to writing anything for grub2 today?
<XDevHald> Ahem... Yes.. never install it without properly filing full path commands for complete use before rebooting. (My apologies but my day has the best of me)
<XDevHald> P.S that is from personal experience.
<Rocket2DMn> lol
<XDevHald> Just a summary will do of what you're looking for to be added and it can be done.
<Rocket2DMn> I think the section about dual booting needs mention of it
<Rocket2DMn> it has a pretty detailed section about using Grub
#ubuntu-doc 2011-09-27
<lajjr> Rocket2DMn, thanks for merging...
<mdke> jbicha: your commit of yesterday, I think we should revert it. The translation deadline is quite close now and I don't think there is enough time. Typo corrections create new strings too even though the change is minor.
<jbicha> mdke: when can we fix typos then?
<mdke> jbicha: before string freeze?
<mdke> jbicha: or after the release
<jbicha> ok, I can revert rev 49 for now, do you want to update the pot for rev 48?
<mdke> jbicha: oh, was that not done?
<mdke> bugger
<mdke> how many string changes are there in rev 48?
<mdke> hmm.
<jbicha> mdke: rev 48 is a single typo which I can replace & the Help page for Vino/Desktop Sharing
<jbicha> *I can revert
<mdke> ok, since we are giving new strings to the translators now either way, we might as well go and do the rev 49 changes and update the pot file for that at the same time. Then we can send them a message to tell them to translate the new strings asap
<mdke> I will probably export the translations this weekend or early next week so they have a few days
<mdke> it's either that or revert 48 too, which seems a shame
<mdke> can you take care of this? I need to go to work. For updating the pot file, just use "./autogen.sh; cd ubuntu-help; make pot"
<jbicha> the new page shouldn't break things too badly though, right? there's still some time before release
<jbicha> & how do I get the pot into LP?
<mdke> just commit to bzr
<mdke> lp will update automatically from that
<jbicha> ok, I'll revert the 48 typo & just push the new page
<jbicha> we can push all the typos at stable release as you suggested
<mdke> ok! Thanks a lot
 * mdke gone
<jbicha> mdke: looks like the System Settings launcher item is happening anyway
<mdke> jbicha: typical. Will the current instructions be broken or will they just be adding an item? Assume the latter so no action needed from us
<jbicha> mdke: just adding, but it affects screenshots
<mdke> but we haven't done screenshots yet, right?
<jbicha> right, I was going to work on it later today, finally got my bluetooth computer working (I wanted a bluetooth indicator shown)
<mdke> if it will hold you up, I would just go ahead and make them anyway, i guess it won't be too serious
<jbicha> yeah, it's not a big deal
<jbicha> I'm sure you saw the new bug I opened to make Help more visible, I think JohnLea is looking for a perfect solution and not a stopgap for Oneiric :(
<jbicha> there's a definite communication problem between Docs/Translation & Design though
<mdke> it seems to me that Design isn't very good at communication generally
<jbicha> maybe they think they can make the UI so good it won't need documentation...
<mdke> the way they dealt with that help icon bug was essentially a "let's shove this under the carpet because it doesn't happen to be on our list of priorities and we don't like discussing on bugs"
<jbicha> it's ironic timing with System Settings, which now has half a dozen or more ways to start it
<mdke> even when they took the time to type a comment, it didn't actually say anything
<jbicha> I have trouble coming up with user cases for help because it just seems so obvious to me, & the admittedly few I've talked to had no idea there was useful help pre-installed
<mdke> yes, it is obvious
<mdke> but if you have a preconceived idea that everything needs to be specced up rather than fixing a simple bug, then everything gets complicated
<mdke> particularly since once you design and implement a spec, you just change everything around the next release anyway
<mdke> like the Session Menu
<mdke> rant mode off
<jbicha> :)
<skaet> Hiya,  There's a UIFE request pending that the desktop team would like to get in before final freeze,  could https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/unity-greeter/+bug/860243 please be reviewed and commented on?
<ubot2> Ubuntu bug 860243 in unity-greeter "UIFE: Darken indicator bar" [Wishlist,New]
<jbicha> skaet: good evening, I added a +1
<skaet> thanks jbicha!! :)
#ubuntu-doc 2011-09-28
<jbicha> mdke: ping
<mdke> jbicha: (In case I'm not around at the moment, please provide a bit of information about what you want and I will respond when I get back)
<jbicha> mdke: what do you think of bug 732016? it obsoletes several of the screenshots but I don't think it's worth redoing them for this
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 732016 in unity "UIFe: Desktop should be titled" [Low,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/732016
<jbicha> bug 852130 on the other hand is more noticable
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 852130 in unity "Dash - 'Shortcuts' arrow should be removed" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/852130
<jbicha> wonder if I should push u-docs 11.10.4 now or wait a few more days
<jbicha> oh, ubuntu-docs isn't in the Desktop set, I need to find a sponsor
<mdke> jbicha: I was planning an upload soon anyway with translations, so don't worry if you can't upload
<mdke> jbicha: agreed re bugs/screenshots
<jbicha> mdke: ok, we needed an upload anyway as the last upload used a broken yelp-tools which broke images for translations
#ubuntu-doc 2011-09-29
<DarkwingDuck> mdke: Where are the finished translations located for the docs?
#ubuntu-doc 2011-09-30
<DarkwingDuck> mdke: ping
<mdke> DarkwingDuck: (In case I'm not around at the moment, please provide a bit of information about what you want and I will respond when I get back)
<jbicha> mdke: ping
<mdke> jbicha: (In case I'm not around at the moment, please provide a bit of information about what you want and I will respond when I get back)
<jbicha> lol
<DarkwingDuck> hehehe
<DarkwingDuck> GARG!
<DarkwingDuck> I can't get these translations to import
<DarkwingDuck> Okay, there we go
#ubuntu-doc 2011-10-01
<tornado> Hello, World! :)
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, there are a couple of large merge requests outstanding for the serverguide.
<Rocket2DMn> Is the serverguide open for translations?
<Rocket2DMn> I'm not sure whether we can put them into Oneiric, or if we should just wait for the following release
#ubuntu-doc 2012-09-24
<freedomrun> hello .. I was told to ask here if possible so there is some confusion here at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/BinaryDriverHowto/ATI .. the problem that could make confusion is done when AMD divided it`s drivers and now radeon HD3000 series are called legancy which are not the same "legancy" cards the manual talks about .. please could someone fix that so the new users won`t be confused more than it is necesary
<jbicha> freedomrun: it's a wiki so you could fix it if you like; I really don't know very much about ATI graphics cards
<freedomrun> jbicha, umm my english is good cca: 98,7%
<freedomrun> after alot of coffee
<bkerensa> jbicha: so the ssl is being addressed
<bkerensa> also apparently a privacy police is being worked on
#ubuntu-doc 2012-09-25
<bkerensa> jbicha: and Unity Shopping Lens bug deleted 1054776
<jbicha> bkerensa: what happened?
<bkerensa> jbicha: someone at Canonical deleted the shopping lens bug that has over 200+ affected
<bkerensa> idk
<bkerensa> instead of marking it wont fix or opinion
<bkerensa> Transparency for the win :)
<jbicha> it was marked private, I asked in #launchpad and it's getting changed back to Public
<bkerensa> jbicha: lol oh ok :)
<bkerensa> jbicha: why was it hidden though? :P
<jbicha> that's how private bugs work
<jbicha> I didn't see it either as I don't have upload rights to that package or something
<bkerensa> jbicha: I thought the only reason a bug should be marked private is if it contains private information that is sensitive to a user
<tsimpson> or any security issue
<bkerensa> ;)
<jbicha> nah, anyone can mark bugs private, it's probably a pretty bad flaw
<j1mc> as the issue involved sending data in the clear to canonical, they might be discussing some internal technical matters on the bug that require it to be private for security reasons for now. i would hope that they'll re-open it somehow, or bring up how they're going to resolve it in some other way.
<bkerensa> jbicha: that bug I mentioned that is private was not about any security issues it was more of a rant bug someone started about the ads
<knome> hey j1mc :)
<knome> yeah, we can always hope so...
<bkerensa> there are however a few security bugs open none of which went private
<jbicha> bkerensa: it's back now
<jbicha> just some random user
<knome> any missing comments? ;)
<jbicha> no, it's just that you can't see private reports unless you have access to them
<bkerensa> jbicha: lol so anyone can abuse this?
<j1mc> hi knome  :)
<knome> anyone able to abuse sounds great too..
<jbicha> bkerensa: yes :(
<jbicha> because anyone can post private info they want hidden
 * bkerensa sets #1 to private
<bkerensa> jk
<j1mc> heh
<jbicha> j1mc: anyway, how have you been?
<jbicha> I'm procrastinating on finishing the screenshots
<bkerensa> :D
<j1mc> things have been all right - i refreshed our lug's website: http://chicagolug.org :)
<j1mc> knome: ^^ bear witness to my CSS wizardy. :(
<knome> :)
<knome> looks good
<j1mc> thanks, knome. it is basically my first ever website coding. i did it this weekend.
<knome> then congrats
<knome> it's a good starts, validates and all!
<j1mc> cool - glad it validates. i did check it on IE8 and on my phone. works on those things, so it can't be too broken.
<jbicha> oh wow, your SFD was like a whole conference
<jbicha> we did like an hour and a half talk & demos
<bkerensa> ugh
<j1mc> jbicha: they had an intern who organized it. she did a fantastic job. it was really well organized.
<j1mc> she's an intern for a small non-profit (freegeek chicago)
<knome> time to go to sleep
<knome> or, that was long time ago
<knome> going to sleep
<knome> see you!
<j1mc> later, knome
<j1mc> take care
<jbicha> dpm: I don't know if I'll finalize ubuntu-docs screenshots today
<jbicha> there's one more UI change, the Gwibber lens is using Twitter's icon so Design is going to replace it
<jbicha> and I have to redesign some of the screenshots for the new launcher items that landed yesterday
<jbicha> but strings will definitely freeze on schedule today
<dpm> jbicha, I think that should be absolutely fine, strings are the most important part.
<jbicha> mdke: are you around? I updated the pot yesterday in lp:ubuntu-docs but the translation status looks the same
<jbicha> dpm: I don't think we changed the strings as much for quantal as we did for precise, the top 18 languages don't look too bad
<jbicha> on https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu-docs/quantal/ even though most haven't been touched this cycle yet
<dpm> yeah, I was looking at that too
<dpm> jbicha, do you think we could update help.ubuntu.com with the translations regularly until release, similar to what we did on precise?
<jbicha> yeah, all it needs is someone to build the docs and upload them to https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-doc/ubuntu-docs/help.ubuntu.com
<jbicha> dpm: did you want to join ubuntu-core-doc?
<jbicha> help.ubuntu.com gets updated from that branch once per day
<dpm> jbicha, I'd do if it helps, but I'd feel I haven't participated enough in documentation to join the core committers team. I need to have a look again at how translations get built, let me come back to you in a few hours or tomorrow
<jbicha> mdke: dpm: oh I guess the translation status doesn't change the date updated but I clearly see the new strings in the translation queue so I guess we're ok
<jbicha> we have new pages for each lens, so I just searched for Gwibber
<dpm> jbicha, which date are you referring to about?
<jbicha> "Last Changed" on https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu-docs/quantal/
<jbicha> I guess it makes sense, we didn't touch the translations themselves, just the pot
<dpm> jbicha, yes, that's correct, that's the date the last translation was touched by a translator. For the date the template was updated, you can have a look at the template's Header or Last update fields on https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu-docs/quantal/+pots/ubuntu-help/+admin
<jbicha> oh, I can't access that page
<jbicha> docs string freeze, yay!
#ubuntu-doc 2012-09-26
<mitya57> hey, can somebody please +1 on bug 1055972? it's a trivial fix, the package is in universe and not documented anywhere.
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 1055972 in unity-mail "[UIFe] Unity Mail desktop actions should not be shown in the Messaging Menu" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1055972
<mitya57> dpm: and you please ^^ :) it doesn't affect translatable strings.
<jbicha> if it's not shipped by default, it doesn't need a UIFe
<mitya57> hm, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FreezeExceptionProcess doesn't mention that...
<jbicha> mitya57: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UserInterfaceFreeze
<mitya57> jbicha: thanks
<dpm> mitya57, I understand then that you don't need action from the translations team for that one? ^
<mitya57> dpm: yes, and please also ignore my mail to your list :)
<dpm> mitya57, ok, cool, no worries
<mitya57> that's my first UIFe so I didn't know that it's for main packages only
<jbicha> not exactly for main only
<jbicha> if you changed the xubuntu wallpaper, I think the xubuntu docs guys need to know
#ubuntu-doc 2012-09-30
<IdleOne> Who do we poke about updating https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuHashes with the hashes for 12.04.1 ?
<IdleOne> Oh and hello :)
<IdleOne> ah ha!
<IdleOne> Bug #1051082
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 1051082 in ubuntu-docs "https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuHashes needs updating for 12.04.1" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1051082
<IdleOne> ok, affects me too. will patiently wait for the update. thank you pleia2 for your help.
<melodie> hi !
<melodie> can someone give me information about when and how to write a blueprint ? I have two topics in mind but not sure it fits there
#ubuntu-doc 2013-09-23
<pleia2> anyone around who wants to have a go at a couple articles left in the UWN google doc?
<pleia2> in "canonical news" and blogosphere
 * smartboyhw helps pleia2 
 * pleia2 works on the remaining planet articles
<pleia2> thanks smartboyhw
<smartboyhw> You're lucky today, storm kept me in home:P
<pleia2> haha
<smartboyhw> Otherwise, I'll now be at school. (Probably taking a break)
<pleia2> yeah, I thought it was unusual to see you on my sunday evening
<pleia2> haha
<pleia2> this is #ubuntu-doc!
<pleia2> how did this window get in the wrong spot...
<smartboyhw> LOL
<smartboyhw> Sorry Doc folks:)
#ubuntu-doc 2013-09-25
<belkinsa> Stupid question: What are Legacy pages?
#ubuntu-doc 2013-09-27
<TheLordOfTime> if there's a bug in the apt manpage, does the Doc team handle fixing it, or should the person file a bug against the `apt` package and report the manpage issue?
<TheLordOfTime> just curious, it's a question that popped up on Ask Ubuntu and i'm curious what would be preferred.
<pleia2> bah, sorry for top-posting on the list, my brain is in work mode (and work people top post)
<pleia2> email is hard :)
<godbyk> pleia2: I'll forgive you... this time.
<pleia2> hehe
<pleia2> it's been a long wek
<pleia2> week too
<pleia2> weeeeeeeeek
<pleia2> ^^ long
<godbyk> I hear ya. It's been a long week here, too.
<godbyk> I'll be out of town this next week at a conference (in San Diego).
<godbyk> So I won't get much done then either.
<pleia2> ooh, have fun
<godbyk> I'm hoping it'll be fun. I generally enjoy conferences. If nothing else, it's a change of scenery. :)
<pleia2> san diego should be nice this time of year
<godbyk> You're in San Francisco, right?
<pleia2> yep
<pleia2> far away from san diego :)
<godbyk> Cool. I had a conference in SF a few years ago that was a lot of fun. I enjoyed SF.  I haven't been to San Diego before.
<pleia2> SF is my favorite place
<pleia2> I've been to SD once, last year for a conference in December
<pleia2> stayed a couple days longer to go to the zoo and wild animal park
<godbyk> That sounds fun.
<pleia2> it was amazing :)
<godbyk> I have a conference in Orlando in December.
<pleia2> I did disney during my last orlando conference
<godbyk> It'll be a nice reprieve from the Iowa winter. :)
<pleia2> see, when someone is paying for my flight, I go all out with add-on vacations :)
<godbyk> I don't blame you! I'd take advantage of that, too, if I had the time.
 * pleia2 nods
<pleia2> time certainly can be an issue
<pleia2> heading to the Sierra Nevada mountains this weekend for my birthday \o/
<pleia2> driving up tonight
<godbyk> Hopefully once I finish grad school, I'll have more time on my hands. :)
<godbyk> Oh, well, happy birthday!
<godbyk> My birthday was earlier this week.
<pleia2> the plan had been hiking, but I'm on the tail end of a sprained ankle, so I think the plan now is fireplace and pool :)
<pleia2> thanks, and happy birthday to you too!
<pleia2> most popular time of year for birthdays
<godbyk> Both plans sound great.
<godbyk> Yeah, I can't imagine why that is. ;-)
<pleia2> agreed, no disappointment here with change of plans
<pleia2> hehe
<godbyk> A couple of my siblings have birthdays this week, too.  Sept. 23, 25, and 26.
<pleia2> hah
<pleia2> nice planning, get all the kiddo birthdays done with at the same time ;)
<godbyk> I have a young cousin (he's 5 now I think?) who shares my birthday. Last year at his party, we had a bit of a disagreement over who's birthday it was. :)
<pleia2> hehe
<godbyk> Something I'd like to pick your brain on sometime (probably after Ubuntu 13.10 is released) is how the docs team can work more closely with the designers and developers.
<godbyk> I'd like the designers and developers to start alerting the docs team when they make changes that are likely to affect the docs.
<godbyk> Or at least find a better way to keep track of changes.
<godbyk> Having to review all the docs at each release is quite time-consuming and a nearly impossible task.
<pleia2> yeah, I know bkerensa tried to do some of that this cycle for new features by pinging them about it but they were somewhat unresponsive
<pleia2> need to figure out a better strategy I think
<godbyk> Yeah. He was trying to sort out what should appear on the 'what's new' page, I think.
 * pleia2 nods
<godbyk> I'm hoping that we can coerce some people involved in key projects (e.g., Unity) to help keep us informed.
<godbyk> Or figure out which mailing lists and IRC channels we should be eavesdropping on.
<pleia2> yeah, that would be good
<godbyk> The manual project has the same issue.
<godbyk> On the plus side, I haven't noticed and freeze exception requests yet. So that's good.
<pleia2> yeah :)
<bkerensa> godbyk: The developers are not going to do that
<bkerensa> I am a dev
<bkerensa> and there are lots of others
<bkerensa> and then there are Canonical devs and there is just no way with the amount of work that full time developers do that they can notify the doc team
<godbyk> bkerensa: Do you have any other ideas of how the docs team can more easily keep up with changes?
<godbyk> Are there any pertinent mailing lists of IRC channels that we should attend to?
<bkerensa> godbyk: The ideal situation would be for someone from Jono's team or the Desktop Team to provide a summary of things they plan in the cycle
<bkerensa> and then maybe a final summary just before freeze in case things are rushed in
<godbyk> bkerensa: Yes, that would be a great help.
<bkerensa> godbyk: sure ubuntu-devel, ubuntu-desktop,  releasename-changes
<bkerensa> all good mailing lists to watch
<godbyk> Currently, we're stuck reading each page of documentation and running through the procedures on that page to see if they still hold true in the newer version of Ubuntu. And that's quite time-consuming.
<bkerensa> sure
<bkerensa> and also another issue is Canonical carries deltas in some Gnome apps
<bkerensa> they have customized some of them
<bkerensa> so
<bkerensa> when we import GNOME doc
<bkerensa> features in GNOME may not exist in Ubuntu
<bkerensa> and vice versa
<bkerensa> some level of fragmentation
<bkerensa> and I believe the gap will grow as Canonical continues to bake features they think are important to the end user
<bkerensa> I know there was plans at one point to revamp network-manager
<godbyk> Yeah, I've noticed that.
<bkerensa> this is not unique to just GNOME
<godbyk> What's the best way to discover those deltas?
<bkerensa> Canonical also ships a non-Vanilla Firefox and Chromium by baking in stuff
<bkerensa> godbyk: you have to just be a daily user of the development release
<bkerensa> and notice changes
<bkerensa> try to monitor the mailing lists I suppose
<bkerensa> I think next cycle of doc will be a significant opportunity to get things even fresher then this release
<godbyk> bkerensa: I agree. That's why I'd like to try to get these things in place so we don't have all these changes fall through the cracks.
<bkerensa> godbyk: I think we just need to consider making a internal workflow for doc
<bkerensa> regular health checks of pages
<bkerensa> on certain dates and a todo list
<godbyk> bkerensa: Agreed.
<bkerensa> godbyk: I did tell you I plan to continue contributing to doc right?
<godbyk> bkerensa: For example, track the upstream GNOME docs more closely so we're dealing with smaller deltas.
<bkerensa> I guess pleia2 had not originally been clear on that but I do plan on staying at least another full cycle
<godbyk> bkerensa: I wasn't sure. I knew you were stepping back from a lot of your other Ubuntu work, but wasn't sure if you were sticking around for docs.
<bkerensa> yeah
<godbyk> bkerensa: I'm glad to hear it, though!
<bkerensa> I wanted to seem that I would be mostly unavailable as a go to person
<bkerensa> I have too much on my plate right now to be a go to person ;)
<godbyk> bkerensa: I also want to make sure we update our internal documentation. I think a lot of procedures are underdocumented or out of date.
<bkerensa> godbyk: indeed we should plan to meet maybe in about two weeks
<bkerensa> godbyk: I would like to get regular meetings back
<pleia2> ++
<godbyk> bkerensa: Regular meetings definitely help keep everyone on track.
<godbyk> We discovered that with the manual team, too.
<bkerensa> But like I said I cannot always drive them
<bkerensa> other people need to step up and lead too
<bkerensa> :)
<godbyk> bkerensa: No problem. :)
<bkerensa> maybe we could plan a certain day every month?
<godbyk> Monthly meetings seem doable.
<bkerensa> godbyk: Maybe you could e-mail the list and ask folks what day and time of the week usually works best for everyone when iit comes to availability?
<bkerensa> and then we can just make it so
<godbyk> bkerensa: Yeah, I'll try to get it set up.
<bkerensa> cool
<bkerensa> thanks for that
<godbyk> We should try to have a meeting not long after Ubuntu 13.10 is released.
<bkerensa> godbyk: your work has been amazing
<bkerensa> jono: send this guy some swag ^
<pleia2> godbyk rocks!
<bkerensa> :P
<godbyk> That'll give us a chance to assess how our work during the Saucy cycle went, what we could do better, etc. before everyone forgets.
<pleia2> yeah
<bkerensa> exactly
<bkerensa> we could do a SWOT
<godbyk> Then we can also work on outlining what we'd like to accomplish for 14.04.
 * godbyk things bkerensa has taken too many management courses. ;-)
<bkerensa> I have
<bkerensa> :)
<pleia2> lol
<godbyk> But really, it is a good way to assess things.
<pleia2> I don't even know what a SWOT is
 * pleia2 googled
<bkerensa> pleia2: you should have come to the Moz office
<godbyk> strengths, weaknesses, opportunities, and threats.
<bkerensa> they were filling my mind with SWOT
<pleia2> hehe
<bkerensa> and "Team Building Excercises"
<bkerensa> I feel like it was a Tony Robbins seminar
 * godbyk has a degree in technology management, though he tries not to let people know that. ;-)
<pleia2> bkerensa: hahah
<pleia2> I am surprisingly productive given my relative lack of formal education about anything
<pleia2> imagine if I was trained, I'd be killing it :)
<godbyk> pleia2: I'm not sure said formal education is worth much. :)
<godbyk> Especially with tech stuff.. it changes so fast that by the time they create a course about it, it's out of date.
<bkerensa> pleia2: http://cdn.benjaminkerensa.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/DSC_1829.jpg
<bkerensa> thats Whoosh
<bkerensa> http://improvencyclopedia.org/games/Whoosh.html
<belkinsa> pleia2: Thanks for fixing the header on Ubuntu wiki home page.
<bkerensa> well
<bkerensa> Whoosh + T-Rex
<bkerensa> :)
<pleia2> belkinsa: I top-posted on that thread, my bad :) was in work mode and everyone at work uses outlook and top posts
<belkinsa> Heh, it's cool.
<pleia2> good golly, bkerensa and belkinsa in channel at once, my brain asplode
<belkinsa> Yup.
<belkinsa> :)
<belkinsa> (I didn't even  notice that it was top-posted)
<bkerensa> pleia2: lucky bkero is not here :)
<pleia2> hehe
<bkerensa> Benjamin Kero my arch open source nemesis
<pleia2> plars is fun for me in -release
<pleia2> I was once in a channel with a pleiades, that was also fun
<pleia2> I have quite the fondness for that constellation
<godbyk> And it's just a cool name.
<pleia2> yeah :)
<belkinsa> I'm off, see ya all.
#ubuntu-doc 2017-09-30
<naveen_> Any help required in grammar-checking Ubuntu Documenation or any other related projects, do message me .
<naveen_> happy to help
