#ubuntu-manual 2010-05-03
<daker> godbyk, godbyk-android http://flexpaper.devaldi.com/index.php
<daker> night all
<humphreybc> hey guys
<godbyk> hey, humphreybc
<humphreybc> what's new?
<godbyk> nothing here. I'm just emerging from my coma. :)
<humphreybc> hehe
<humphreybc> i've got an appointment with the bank at 10:30 am tomorrow...!
<humphreybc> 10:30aM!!!
<humphreybc> I guess I need to start packing soon, too
<humphreybc> also, looks like thursday at 2000 UTC is going to work for a meeting
<godbyk> okay.
<humphreybc> which means I have the UX meeting at midnight thur night, then UMP meeting at 8am the next day!
<godbyk> yeah, I was thinking the same. gonna have to figure out when to sleep. :)
<humphreybc> haha
<ubuntujenkins> morning
<ubuntujenkins> +quickshot
<quickshotbot> ubuntujenkins: "quickshot" could be Quickshot is a python application designed to make it easy for all users to capture translated screenshots using an intuitive and semi-automated step-by-step process. Its principal use is with the Ubuntu Manual Project but it will also support configuration and customization for other projects in the near future.
<godbyk> Wow.. we've sold 38 copies of the book now.
<ubuntujenkins> thats really good
<godbyk> Most of them are probably from our own team, but, hey. :)
<humphreybc> Lol! we've got bots for china now
<ubuntujenkins> bots for china?
<humphreybc> like, lots of bots
<ubuntujenkins> o i see
<humphreybc> there's manualbot, quickshotbot and daker's bot
<ubuntujenkins> and Mootbot
<humphreybc> lol
<ubuntujenkins> daker started me on the quickshotbot he was hand writting one but i cheated and got spybot and used that
<humphreybc> lol
<humphreybc> there's a meeting this thursday btw Luke
<ubuntujenkins> I may not be there i don't know yet. Waiting on an e-mail
<ubuntujenkins> I hope to be there :)
<humphreybc> kk
<humphreybc> how much time do you have right now luke?
<ubuntujenkins> not doing much might get some breakfast
<ubuntujenkins> which takes 5 mins
<humphreybc> okay, when you come back we could have a skype call with godbyk
<ubuntujenkins> sure
<ubuntujenkins> right ready
<ubuntujenkins> humphreybc and godbyk skype?
<humphreybc> godbyk's not here, he's disappeared. maybe having tea
<ubuntujenkins> hes on skype now he wasn't a moment ago
<humphreybc> ok
<humphreybc> hold up one sec
<godbyk> Ah, sorry. Back now.
<humphreybc> okay
<humphreybc> ubuntujenkins: your sound quality is shit
<humphreybc> like, really shit
 * ubuntujenkins looks at head sets
<ubuntujenkins> any recomendations godbyk or humphreybc ?
<humphreybc> I just use some crappy old chinese one that cost me $10
<humphreybc> it sounds good
<godbyk> Here's the headset that I own: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16826158069
<ubuntujenkins> ok thanks
 * ubuntujenkins bot is not remembering factoids each time it restarts
<ubuntujenkins> +quickshot
<quickshotdevs> ubuntujenkins: "quickshot" could be Quickshot is a python application designed to make it easy for all users to capture translated screenshots using an intuitive and semi-automated step-by-step process. Its principal use is with the Ubuntu Manual Project but it will also support configuration and customization for other projects in the near future.
<ubuntujenkins> +help
<quickshotdevs> ubuntujenkins: (help [<plugin>] [<command>]) -- This command gives a useful description of what <command> does. <plugin> is only necessary if the command is in more than one plugin.
<godbyk> how many bots are in here now and what are they each for?
<godbyk> am I going to have to create a bot just for answering latex questions now? ;-)
<ubuntujenkins> well manual bot does ubuntu factoids mootbot does meetings quickshotdevs is quickshot info and fun channel data
<ubuntujenkins> ChannelStats
<ubuntujenkins> +ChannelStats
<quickshotdevs> ubuntujenkins: On #ubuntu-manual there have been 57 messages, containing 2262 characters, 396 words, 2 smileys, and 1 frown; 1 of those messages was an ACTION.  There have been 5 joins, 2 parts, 1 quit, 0 kicks, 0 mode changes, and 0 topic changes.
<Custard> The bot rejoin recently?
<Custard> Oh, so it did
<ubuntujenkins> also quickshotdevs should let us know of any posts made on the ubuntu-manual planet
<thorwil> godbyk: my favorite is the zen bot. it's not even here!
<godbyk> cool
<ubuntujenkins> no one has made a blog post yet for it to be tested
 * dutchie is back from oggcamp
<dutchie> going to get to the point where there are more bots than people :)
<ubuntujenkins> hello dutchie how was it?
<dutchie> great fun
<ubuntujenkins> hopefully i might be able to make it next year
<dutchie> \o/
<ubuntujenkins> dutchie: any idea how to remove the "ubuntujenkins: "quickshot" could be" from the start of the factoids? quickshotdevs is baised on supybot which is what ubot is baised on.
<dutchie> when you teach it a factoid, put <reply> in where you want the reply to start
<dutchie> so "!quickshot is <reply> A tool for taking localised screenshots"
<ubuntujenkins> ok thanks
<ubuntujenkins> you use + for quickshotdevs btw
<ubuntujenkins> didn't waant to trigger manualbot
<dutchie> probably a good plan
<ubuntujenkins> dutchie: how did you teach it the revisons thing? I would like to try +qs200 to return http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~quickshotdevs/quickshot/quickshot/revision/200 . was there a plugin you used?
<ubuntujenkins> but i am too lazy to program each one
<mandrew> hiya fellow citizens
<ubuntujenkins> hello mandrew
<mandrew> how is it hanging
<mandrew> do you have good knowledge about UNE?
 * ubuntujenkins does not sorry
<mandrew> np
<ubuntujenkins> whats you question anyway?
<mandrew> if it's possible to get a "proper" desktop environment in the UNE version of Ubuntu?
<mandrew> from the menus
<mandrew> or am i forced to log in and out to do that '
<mandrew> im not really a fan of the DE in the UNE
<ubuntujenkins> I think you would have to log out, once you have installed it. I suggest asking #ubuntu
<Custard> ^
<Custard> You can, but it requires a log in/out
<mandrew> i did and the answer i got there to what the log in log out tip
<mandrew> too*  was*
<ubuntujenkins> you will not have to do it each time just choose it when you log in
<mandrew> nice nice
<mandrew> i just upgraded my msi wind u 160 with a 80gb ssd :D
<mandrew> it's super easy to do it though just pop up the keyboard then you can access the hdd and swoop it for a ssd no need to pop the whole thing open
<mandrew> you guys working on the 10.10 manual now?
<godbyk> Not quite yet.
<ubuntujenkins> mostly edition 2 of 10.04 at the moment
<mandrew> ok sweet
<godbyk> We'll start work on 10.10 in a few months (after they've had some time to get new stuff running).
<mandrew> any new things in the 10.04 release?
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk: were not going to retake the screencaps for edition 2 are we?
<ubuntujenkins> a video editor that i can't spell
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: Good question. I don't know.  We can probably keep the ones we have.
<ubuntujenkins> I hope so
<ubuntujenkins> mandrew: also gwibber
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: I don't know if any need to be retaken or not.
<ubuntujenkins> I don't "think" they do
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: Or if we'll add any.  Depends on what extra sections of text get written.
<humphreybc> mandrew: lots of new stuff planned for maverick tho ;)
 * ubuntujenkins hopes humphreybc will give us the full inside story
<mandrew> are you guys going to do a K, X, L, E etc etc *buntu versions to?
<Custard> Might be better for the distro maintainers to contribute spin specific parts?
<mandrew> nice humphreybc
<ubuntujenkins> in the long run yes we need more people who know about those distors mandrew
<ian__> What parts of the manual need working on?
<ian__> for Authors
<godbyk> ian__: We're going to have a meeting in a few days to pin that down.
<humphreybc> ian__: ummm... we probably need editors more than authors right now, although pretty much the entire thing
<humphreybc> but yeah, meeting on thursday at 2000 UTC
<humphreybc> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Meetings
<ian__> I already made a couple of mods to the Security section and the CMD section
<godbyk> ian__: Great! You might hold on to those for just a bit longer.
<ubuntujenkins> humphreybc: I did tell ilya but i am not going to be writing for the next release. lots of quickshot stuff to do
<godbyk> I'm probably going to wipe out the e2 branch and create a fresh one without all the history/cruft.
<mandrew> man i got my UNE to start up on 14 sec :D with the ssd
<godbyk> Then we can start pulling in the edits.
<ian__> I added notes concerning the use of sudo and that when typing in commands, EVERYTHING is CASE SESITIVE
<ian__> SENSITIVE
<godbyk> mandrew: Nice!  I wish I had an SSD.
<mandrew> expensive as hell
<ian__> I am still as yet unsure how I would upload and what exactly. Im kinda new at this
<mandrew> i got a 80gb and it cost me an arm and a leg
<Custard> mandrew, intel g2?
<mandrew> yup
<mandrew> good for my battery ;)
<Custard> ;)
<ian__> so is using a netbook
<mandrew> i must say i love the manual and the idea behind it ;) good work guys keep it up
<ubuntujenkins> mandrew: there is always room to help
<ian__> I think I may write up something under CMD concerning permissions for advanced users
<mandrew> there sure is but im just a newbie so ill be helping with the translations instead
<ian__> such as the use of chmod
<ian__> along with several common *nix commands
<ian__> lspci
<ian__> How do you go about setting up a new section? like a new .tex?
<humphreybc> ian__: um, for now i wouldn't :)
<humphreybc> to be completely honest, most of the work in lucid e2 and maverick will be editing and _removing_ things, to make it less technical and bloated
<ian__> ok, just thinking about making a section about advanced commands
<humphreybc> hence why we need really good editors
<humphreybc> heh
<ian__> ok
<humphreybc> well, remember the title is "Getting Started with Ubuntu 10.04" - it's not meant to cover advanced commands. But the manual won't be the only thing the team is doing, it's just one "product" of ours
<ian__> what sections need editing into layman's speak?
<humphreybc> we will have space available in the future for advanced commands and stuff
<humphreybc> um, we're not sure, we need to review it properly
<humphreybc> hence the meeting on thursday
<ian__> When the Manual is done, Im taking it to the local print shop and having them make a few to give to firends and people I introduce to ubuntu
<humphreybc> we're still establishing goals and principles and getting footing as a team, as well as working out our workflow
<ian__> ok, what time CST?
<ubuntujenkins> ian__: you can buy the book here http://www.lulu.com/product/paperback/getting-started-with-ubuntu-1004/10793559
<mandrew> waow man ill buy a copy
<humphreybc> ian__: not sure but if you go to the meetings page on our wiki, there is a link that takes you to the fixed world time for that time, then you can find your city and timezone
<mandrew> its not a hard back book?
<ian__> I C about 2PM Tuesday eh?
<ian__> CST
<ian__> thursday
<humphreybc> that sounds about right
<ian__> here?
<ubuntujenkins> mandrew: "Perfect-bound Paperback"
<humphreybc> nope, #ubuntu-meeting
<ian__> ok
<ian__> c u then
<humphreybc> okay!
<humphreybc> sounds good :)
<ian__> nite
<mandrew> hmmm ubuntujenkins im not sure what that is, im not a native English speaker :(
<godbyk> mandrew: It's not hard-cover, it's paperback.
<mandrew> ok
<ubuntujenkins> mandrew: there is an image at the top http://www.lulu.com/uk/publish/books/?cid=publish_portal
<godbyk> mandrew: The hard-cover edition cost a lot more, so we didn't create one this time.
<mandrew> ok
<mandrew> damn a casewrap would be nice to have though but i do understand that you guys need to think about the price too
<godbyk> mandrew: The PDF is freely available, so you're allowed to take it and get a copy of it printed and bound using casewrap, if you like.
<mandrew> can i do that through lulu?
<godbyk> mandrew: Yes.
<mandrew> sweet
<godbyk> mandrew: Just a sec and I'll get you a link.
<godbyk> Actually, I'll just create it for you and give you a link to the hard-cover edition. It'll be faster.
<mandrew> ok
<mandrew> thanks
<godbyk> (Assuming it'll use the same paper size.  If it doesn't, you'll have to give me a couple days to play with it.)
<mandrew> ok np
<godbyk> mandrew: It looks like the paper size for the casewrap version is a bit smaller.  So let me look into it a bit more for you.
<mandrew> np
<godbyk> mandrew: Can you send an email to kevin@ubuntu-manual.org to so I can flag it and remember it?
<mandrew> sure
<mandrew> e-mail sent
<godbyk> thanks
<mandrew> i added a copy of our conversation in the mail to so you know what the hell it is lol
<godbyk> heh, good idea!
<doctormo> It's a very interesting diagram
<doctormo> I take it that your looking seriously into mixable sources and multiple publishing targets
<humphreybc> pretty much :)
<godbyk> yeah, a bit of everything it seems.
<godbyk> I've just added ePub to humphreybc's radar, too.
<humphreybc> doctormo: we're talking about all this during this week, and at our meeting on thursday. I have some mockups of some stuff too that I'm just finishing off, and then next week at UDS we can start into some serious discussion with the others
<humphreybc> so doctormo, what do you reckon? Chat about it at UDS?
<doctormo> I think so
<doctormo> I don't know if you've seen my diagrams
<humphreybc> Not sure, maybe?
<doctormo> But my thoughts run along the lines of:
<humphreybc> I'm going to write up all of this stuff somewhere
<doctormo> * Get a simple, file level context annotation program in place
<doctormo> * Get the ability to edit a file in the gui and upload it to their own branch quickly.
<doctormo> * tie it into ground control, since the code is all there.
<doctormo> * Tie some publishing functions in.
<doctormo> That's about it
<humphreybc> heh
<humphreybc> at some point all this would involve the docs team
<humphreybc> and they aint gonna like this :P
<ubuntujenkins> dutchie: how do i make the bot forget one or relearn it?
<humphreybc> ubuntujenkins, dutchie, thorwil, check your @ubuntu-manual.org accounts
<ubuntujenkins> I dig it up its hiding from me at the moment
<ubuntujenkins> *I'll
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: did you say that xindy was in one of the ubuntu packages?
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk: its in debian
<ubuntujenkins> you also need xindy-ruls
<godbyk> but not in ubuntu?
<ubuntujenkins> *rules
<ubuntujenkins> no not in ubuntu sinse 8.10
<godbyk> 'kay. thanks
<godbyk> was going to test the texlive 2009 packages in ubuntu 10.04 and see if they happened to work these days.
<godbyk> but without xindy, I guess it's a no-go.
<ubuntujenkins> I have xindy in my ppa
<ubuntujenkins> I missed a texlive dependancy when i uploaded it all I haven't got around to fixing it
<humphreybc> godbyk, do you want me to pester some people at UDS to see if we can get more stuff in the universe repo?
<ubuntujenkins> i haven't got xindy-rules yet hopefully that will build soon
<ubuntujenkins> humphreybc: that only helps people who run the latest version not people still on 9.10 etc. ppas of stuff in debian is easy
<humphreybc> okay
<godbyk> I just responded to the the question with 'nope, you'll still need to download it from upstream.'
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk: do why know what else is missing apart form ccicons and xindy?
<ubuntujenkins> I have just done a clean install but am waiting to fix my ppa to see what is wrong with it
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: I'm not sure yet. those are the two I've found so far.  The xetex version may also be too old. lemme check that next.
<ubuntujenkins> ok I am happy to package up as much as i can to make it easier for people.
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: I think it's an actual bug that the xindy stuff isn't included in the lucid repositories.
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: they included makeglossaries, but that's a perl script that calls xindy (which is missing).
<ubuntujenkins> xindy failed to build when it was uploaded to anything above 8.10, it gets uploaded but fails. I got it to build ok
<ubuntujenkins> full a bug on launchpad i guess as its an ubuntu bug not debian as in debian its fine
<ubuntujenkins> *file
<godbyk> I'll do that.
<godbyk> Trying to figure out what to file against.
<humphreybc> how hard is it to set up ssh into a server when you're not on the local network?
<ubuntujenkins> I have done it
<humphreybc> oh yeah?
<ubuntujenkins> I assume you have physical acces to the ssh server
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/texlive-extra/+bug/574448
<manualbot> Launchpad bug 574448 in texlive-extra "xindy has not been packaged" [Undecided,New]
<humphreybc> yeah I do
 * ubuntujenkins chooses affects me
<godbyk> I guess https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/574448 is a cleaner link.
<manualbot> Launchpad bug 574448 in texlive-extra "xindy has not been packaged" [Undecided,New]
<ubuntujenkins> humphreybc: I am just trying to find the wiki page
<humphreybc> so, who's going to upgrade to Maverick?
<ubuntujenkins> tempted
<humphreybc> nothing will noticeably change for at least 3 weeks
<ubuntujenkins> I can't find the page i am looking for but this is good https://help.ubuntu.com/8.10/serverguide/C/openssh-server.html
<ubuntujenkins> humphreybc: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SSH/OpenSSH/Configuring this was the page i wanted
<ubuntujenkins> usefull for setting it up right
<humphreybc> nea
<humphreybc> neat*
<humphreybc> i'll look into it
<humphreybc> Hmm, my server just died
<humphreybc> I think my flatmate might have bumped the router
<daker> hello
<daker> wassup ?
<ubuntujenkins> hello daker, not much really
<daker> +hello
<quickshotdevs> daker: Error: "hello" is not a valid command.
<humphreybc> hey daker
<daker> hhhhh
<daker> +help
<quickshotdevs> daker: (help [<plugin>] [<command>]) -- This command gives a useful description of what <command> does. <plugin> is only necessary if the command is in more than one plugin.
<ubuntujenkins> +hello
<quickshotdevs> ubuntujenkins: Error: "hello" is not a valid command.
<ubuntujenkins> +hello
<quickshotdevs> ubuntujenkins: Error: "hello" is not a valid command.
<humphreybc> bot mania?
<ubuntujenkins> it should work
<ubuntujenkins> +quickshot
<quickshotdevs> ubuntujenkins: Error: "quickshot" is not a valid command.
<ubuntujenkins> +help is <reply> Welcome to #ubuntu-manual please enjoy our stay
<quickshotdevs> ubuntujenkins: Error: There is no command "is <reply> welcome to #ubuntumanual please enjoy our stay".
<ubuntujenkins> +hello is <reply> Welcome to #ubuntu-manual please enjoy our stay
<quickshotdevs> ubuntujenkins: The operation succeeded.
<ubuntujenkins> +hello
<quickshotdevs> Welcome to #ubuntu-manual please enjoy our stay
<daker> humphreybc: yesterday we were creating a bot for Quickshot
<ubuntujenkins> All these work in a private session with the bot i don't know why they don't work in the channel
<ubuntujenkins> I taught it lots of them ;/
<daker> lol
<daker> my bot is really good :)
<ubuntujenkins> ChannelStats
<ubuntujenkins> +ChannelStats
<quickshotdevs> ubuntujenkins: On #ubuntu-manual there have been 323 messages, containing 14399 characters, 2648 words, 14 smileys, and 10 frowns; 5 of those messages were ACTIONs.  There have been 16 joins, 6 parts, 6 quits, 0 kicks, 0 mode changes, and 0 topic changes.
<daker> now it will be 7 quits because i am leaving right now: )
<daker> see you
<ubuntujenkins> bye
<Custard> ubuntujenkins, Loughborough uni?
<ubuntujenkins> Custard: yep :-)
<Custard> I have a few mates who go there ;)
<Custard> They're... arch fans though
<ubuntujenkins> I only know one person who uses linux they are an ubuntu fan
<ubuntujenkins> other than me*
<Custard> What course? I think they're on CS
<ubuntujenkins> I am on mechanical engineering
<Custard> Ah. You guys might not see each other then
<ubuntujenkins> I guess not
<ubuntujenkins> +quickshot
<quickshotdevs> ubuntujenkins: Error: "quickshot" is not a valid command.
 * ubuntujenkins aaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrgggggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh silly bot
<sebsebseb> ubuntujenkins: it's started :)
<sebsebseb> ubuntujenkins: Ubuntu Open Week
<ubuntujenkins> whats on?
<sebsebseb> ubuntujenkins: get in there already then :D
<sebsebseb> ubuntujenkins: #ubuntu-classroom and #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<ubuntujenkins> QUESTION can humphreybc stop asking questions :-)
<ubuntujenkins> ;-)
<humphreybc> hehehe
<ubuntujenkins> anyone would think you were keen
<ubuntujenkins> lol
<dutchie> ubuntujenkins: the bzr stuff is a plugin
<dutchie> can't remember how to teach it new things
<ubuntujenkins> ok I will have a look, I taught the bot lots of new things but privatly but they don't work any ideas dutchie ?
<dutchie> look on the wiki for the ubottu docs
<ubuntujenkins> thanks dutchie
<ubuntujenkins> +hello
<quickshotdev> Welcome to #ubuntu-manual please enjoy our stay
<ubuntujenkins> yes fixed it o/
<dutchie> our stay?
<ubuntujenkins> I know going to fix it ;/
<ubuntujenkins> +hello
<quickshotdevs> Welcome to #ubuntu-manual please enjoy our stay
<ubuntujenkins> +no hello is <reply> Welcome to #ubuntu-manual please enjoy your stay
<quickshotdevs> ubuntujenkins: The operation succeeded.
<ubuntujenkins> +hello
<quickshotdevs> Welcome to #ubuntu-manual please enjoy your stay
<humphreybc> lol
<humphreybc> so why so many bots?
<ubuntujenkins> well the revision feature is useful and for fun and learning :)
<ubuntujenkins> +quickshot
<quickshotdevs> ubuntujenkins: Error: "quickshot" is not a valid command.
<ubuntujenkins> what?
<humphreybc> lol
<humphreybc> fair enough
<humphreybc> we've pretty much got until the 14th may off till we crack back into work
<ubuntujenkins> I am not trying to dissrupt the channel i thought i had fixed it but.....
<humphreybc> haha no go ahead
<humphreybc> it's all good
<dutchie> lo humphreybc
<humphreybc> ?
 * humphreybc is still not down with the IRC lingo
<dutchie> hello
<dutchie> 'lo
<humphreybc> i thought it was o/
<humphreybc> dutchie: how's that bug reporting form going?
<dutchie> errrr
<dutchie> i've been at oggcamp
<humphreybc> yeah yeah i know ;)
<humphreybc> i might go to bed now
<dutchie> I did think it was stupid o'clock for you kiwis
<humphreybc> i'm syncing myself to brussels time
<humphreybc> not really... i've just been staying up really late recently for no good reason
<jcisio> hello
<jcisio> I'm trying to compile vi version without success
<jcisio> po4a::tex: Can't read from file without having a filename  at /usr/bin/po4a-translate line 229 make: *** [ubuntu-manual-vi.tex] Error 9
<jcisio> may someone help me please?
<ubuntujenkins> jcisio: I have you i followed the text install instructions at the bottom of http://ubuntu-manual.org/getinvolved/authors
<jcisio> yes I did all that
<jcisio> I installed TeX Live 2009 with the 3 required package, ran the install-pkgs.sh
<jcisio> but I couldn't compile (quite familiar to TeX, but not to po4a)
<dutchie> po4a does that occasionally
<dutchie> It normally sorts itself out when the phase of the moon changes
 * dutchie shrugs
<dutchie> don't understand it, I'm afread
<dutchie> afraid*
<ubuntujenkins> hm not sure I haven't got it installed as i am trying to sort out packages that work
<jcisio> maybe the problem is that I'm on Lucid
<jcisio> xindy is no longer available, and that the only error I got when running install-pkgs.sh
<ubuntujenkins> jcisio: you can't use the lucid packages, you have to download the TeX Live 2009 install script.
<jcisio> yes, I did it
<ubuntujenkins> then you should have xindy
<ubuntujenkins> it comes in the install script
<jcisio> in fact I installed TeX Live 2009 in Lucid, but the install-pkgs.sh told that no TeX Live found!
<jcisio> I removed all and run the install script for TeX Live
<dutchie> did you create symlinks?
<jcisio> yes
<dutchie> hmm
<ubuntujenkins> hmm
<jcisio> the 4th options?
<jcisio> anyone here compile it in Lucid?
<ubuntujenkins> I havn't got it installed as I along with godbyk are trying to work out what is missing from the ubuntu packages
<jcisio> I'll reinstall my Ubuntu just to compile the manual, but I'm not sure which one to choose, 10.04 or 9.10
<ubuntujenkins> it should work in lucid there is no need for a reinstall
<jcisio> I install TeX Live once with apt in Lucid, and twice with the install script, not a single success
<ubuntujenkins> does sudo tlmgr --gui give you a window?
<jcisio_> oops, Colloguy works here
<jcisio> 2sec
<jcisio> hmm, that's on a remote machine, and it seems that there is a free space problem so graphics doesn't work
<jcisio> thank you, I'll check that
<ubuntujenkins> ok
<ubuntujenkins> +quickshot
<quickshotdevs> Quickshot is a python application designed to make it easy for all users to capture translated screenshots using an intuitive and semi-automated step-by-step process. Its principal use is with the Ubuntu Manual Project but it will also support configuration and customization for other projects soon. It is written in Python and Glade for the user interface
 * ubuntujenkins YYYYYYYYYYYYEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSS \o/ at last :-)
<dutchie> nice and short :)
<ubuntujenkins> its informative :)
<ubuntujenkins> tbh i didn't write it
<TMKCodes> QUESTION: Does CTRL+A+D detach too? i'm way used to it with screen
<ubuntujenkins> TMKCodes: what?
<TMKCodes> sorry wrong channel :p
<ubuntujenkins> lol :p ubuntu open week
<dutchie> TMKCodes: fwiw, that does work with byobu :)
<TMKCodes> :P
<dutchie> nice to see humphreybc being as ambitious as ever :)
<bittin> The Swedish Ubuntu Loco now has a team of Swedish Ubuntu Manual Translators :)
<bittin> so iam helping them
<ubuntujenkins> thats good bittin :)
<bittin> sure is :)
<c7p> hello all
<ubuntujenkins> hello c7p
<bittin> hi
<ubuntujenkins> evening sebsebseb :-)
<sebsebseb> ubuntujenkins: heh heh yeah #ubuntu just high lighted you :D
<ubuntujenkins> yep :P
<sebsebseb> well I just did
<sebsebseb> anyway I am a bit annoyeed since now I got to mess around with Grub 2 and to get plymouth working propelry
<sebsebseb> since it doesn't like the propritary Nivida driver
<ubuntujenkins> hmm works well enough here
 * ubuntujenkins has taught quickshotdevs some usefull factoids
<sebsebseb> ubuntujenkins: depends on which driver you have if any for the card
<sebsebseb> it's newer Nivida and ATI  that will get issues
<ubuntujenkins> I have nvidia-current, on an 2 year old card
<ChrisWoollard> What is it with London.... I have no electricity so I am reliant of Candles, the battery in my laptop and a 3g card.
<ubuntujenkins> I have no idea. how much of london is out?
<ChrisWoollard> If my laptop would have no power i would have nothing to do.
<ubuntujenkins> lol
<ChrisWoollard> not much. just a few houses in my area
<ubuntujenkins> have they said when they will fix it?
<ChrisWoollard> I got a phone call earlier. They said they have given up for the evening and will continue tomorrow. :(
<ubuntujenkins> :(
<ChrisWoollard> At least tomorrow at work I will have power.
<nailora> when is the german translation of the manual scheduled to be released
<ChrisWoollard> Has the meeting on thursday been confirmed?
<c7p> i think so
<ubuntujenkins> ChrisWoollard: yes it is thursday
<ChrisWoollard> Lovely. I will endeavour to make it
<ubuntujenkins> nailora: as soon as the layout is right. I am sure that godbyk is on it.
<nailora> ubuntujenkins: whats the problem with the layout
<ubuntujenkins> nailora: I don't know the details but things like make sure the screenshots fit on the page. margin notes are not over two pages etc
<nailora> ubuntujenkins: so there are good chances it is done until may 20th
<ubuntujenkins> nailora: I have no idea thats not my side of things I am afraid. sorry
<nailora> ok thx
<c7p> nailora: godbyk and a member of the German translation team will make sure that everything looks as it should and make the proper changes if needed e.g change the width of margin notes
<jcisio> hello
<jcisio> it's great, now I can compile ubuntu-manual-vi
<jcisio> but how to incorporate vi screenshot?
#ubuntu-manual 2010-05-04
<humphreybc> the schedule for UDS is up at summit.ubuntu.com
<godbyk> My lulu order has just been shipped out.  Yay!
<humphreybc> yay
<humphreybc> that must mean mine has too
<humphreybc> where do you  check?
<humphreybc> awh
<humphreybc> mine is still "Fulfilling"
<humphreybc> probably coz I ordered two
<humphreybc> I think I went with one day shipping
<humphreybc> Martin doesn't leave till saturday night
<jcisio> hello
 * IlyaHaykinson waves
<jcisio> I have a question: how do I get ss uploaded by quockshot?
<jcisio> I looked into the ubuntu-manual-screenshots project, but it's empty
<IlyaHaykinson> i'm afraid you'll need to ask ubuntujenkins
<jcisio> thanks
<jcisio> I'll ask on the mailing list
<IlyaHaykinson> sorry i'm not of much help.
<jcisio> I wanted to search, but it's not searchable
<IlyaHaykinson> i think there's a screenshot server, where it'll upload the screenshots
<IlyaHaykinson> but i don't know the process
<IlyaHaykinson> godbyk may also know enough to help.
<jcisio> I see this https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual-screenshots
<godbyk> What's up?
<jcisio> hi godbyk
<godbyk> Hey, jcisio.
<jcisio> Do you know how to incorporate screenshots into the manual?
<jcisio> I couldn't find the uploaded ss nowhere
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins will pull the screenshots for a translation and place them in the lucid-e1 branch. Then they'll be automatically incorporated into the manual when I next compile it.
<godbyk> jcisio: Which language are you working on?
<jcisio> and what if I want to test now?
<jcisio> vi
<jcisio> Vietnamese
<godbyk> You can see the progress of the screenshots here: http://screenshots.ubuntu-manual.org/
<godbyk> Since the Vietnamese screenshots are done, it looks like you should be able to download a zip file of all of them.
<jcisio> great, thanks I'll download it
<godbyk> If you drop them into the screenshots/vi/ directory and compile ubuntu-manual-vi.pdf, it should pull them in automatically.
<godbyk> Don't upload the screenshots to the branch, though.
<jcisio> yeah
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins checks over them manually to make sure they're all okay first.
<godbyk> But you can at least compile a local copy that way.
<godbyk> It looks like there's a ways to go yet on the Vietnamese translation, too.
<jcisio> there's someone who translated the whole manual himself, we'll commit it into LP in a day or two
<godbyk> Oh, wow!
<godbyk> That's a lot of text to translate by themselves.
<godbyk> We're going to have a meeting on Thursday to better define the process for releasing the translated editions.
<godbyk> But the basic plan at this point is to assign an editor to each translation.
<jcisio> one error when I compile the manual: the first time it returns error, I create manually an empty ubuntu-manual-vi.txt, it is ok then
<godbyk> The editor will handle proofreading (others can help, of course), make sure the layout and design looks okay (I can help tweak things if needed), and give us the final word on when it's ready to be released.
<godbyk> jcisio: Can you paste the .log file contents to http://paste.ubuntu.com/? I'll take a look for you.
<godbyk> I don't recall if I've set up the Vietnamese fonts and whatnot yet.
<jcisio> ok I'll paste it, I worked on another computer
<jcisio> however there a few missing images
<jcisio> 57 in screenshots/en, but only 48 in vi
<jcisio> for example 01-ubuntu-login.png is missing by Quickshot
<godbyk> I think a few screenshots are just copies of the English versions.
<godbyk> I'm not sure which ones, though.
<godbyk> I think a few screenshots are just copies of the English versions.
<godbyk> I'm not sure which ones, though.
<SunK> Hello!
<jcisio> godbyk, http://paste.ubuntu.com/427434/
<godbyk> jcisio: Hmm.. I'm not sure what that error means.  po4a is complaining about something.
<jcisio> then I do this http://paste.ubuntu.com/427436/
<jcisio> recompile, and it fails
<jcisio> then a "make clean", recompile, and this time it's ok
<jcisio> don't know why
<godbyk> Well, the po4a-translate line is what generates the .tex file.
<godbyk> The .tex file contains the source (all of the text).
<jcisio> ok, I just report that, now I can compile, it's ok lol (the first time when I compiled en_US it's ok, too), so it's po4a problem
<godbyk> okay
<godbyk> po4a is kind of finicky sometimes.
<jcisio> the last question: is it normal that there are plenty of Warning? Will it pass the QA?
<jcisio> uh no, another question, as you said about the font
<jcisio> Vietnamese fonts are not good in the manual
<jcisio> some capital characters are converted to lowercase
<godbyk> jcisio: It looks like I haven't set up any Vietnamese fonts yet.
<godbyk> jcisio: I'm open to suggestions if you have some in mind that would look good in a book.
<jcisio> I think any Unicode font should be ok
<jcisio> I think we will have some idea once we finish the translation
<ubuntujenkins> morning all
<ubuntujenkins> jcisio: how can i help you?
<godbyk> jcisio: It looks like our current font *should* support all of the Vietnamese characters.
<humphreybc> ubuntujenkins: Luke, I just approved SunK to the Quickshot team. He's been doing python for about two years and is keen to help out.
<SunK> hey ubuntujenkins
<ubuntujenkins> humphreybc: yust saw it :-)
<ubuntujenkins> hey SunK welcome along to quickshot I have a few pages for you to read. If I can remerbr the factoids
<ubuntujenkins> +qssource
<quickshotdevs> The main development focus for the gui can be viewed by doing "bzr branch lp:quickshot"  . The server source is "bzr branch lp:quickshot/server ".  You can browse it here https://code.launchpad.net/quickshot
<ubuntujenkins> +style
<quickshotdevs> The Quickshot code base tries to follow some conventions  a list of them is here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/quickshot/style .
<ubuntujenkins> SunK: If you have a read of those, what would you like to do?
<ubuntujenkins> +newdesign
<quickshotdevs> The new design idea can be found here http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5012868/quickshot-ui.odp . This is just a guide of how Quickshot might look in the next release.
<SunK> oh yeah style guides
<ubuntujenkins> there thats it I think I forget the links all the time so I made a bot :-)
<ubuntujenkins> The new design is what we aim to create this time. some more of our aims are on this page  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/quickshot/next-release-plan
<SunK> I would prefer the backend stuff
<ubuntujenkins> so not the gui, but the code behind it right?
<jcisio> hey ubuntujenkins, problem solved by godbyk :)
<SunK> yeah
<ubuntujenkins> ok jcisio
<godbyk> jcisio: It looks like I need to set up a couple extra thing for Vietnamese so that the type renders correctly (especially with the positioning of the accents).
<ubuntujenkins> SunK: few team members  to meet hemanth and Red_HamsterX are the onl  ones on line at the moment. Red_HamsterX deals with the server stuff
<jcisio> not only accents, but also fonts
<SunK> oh ic
<jcisio> check it out at http://jcisio.com/upload/ubuntu-manual-vi.pdf
<ubuntujenkins> SunK: Have a look at the main branch lp:quickshot and familirize your self with it
<hemanth> o/
<jcisio> look at header of page 8
<SunK> will get on that
<jcisio> some capital characters (those with accents) are in lowercase
<godbyk> jcisio: Give me just a couple minutes and I'll take a look at them.
<jcisio> when I do LaTeX in Vietnamese, I use this: \usepackage[utf8]{vietnam}\usepackage{lmodern}
<ubuntujenkins> SunK: we haven't done much since the last release mostly as I have exams for a while but there is plenty to do. humphreybc is doing some mock ups of the design to amke it easiery to make
<SunK> okay
<humphreybc> SunK: if you know anything about web application development, we could use some help in the very near future for a project we're going to start soon
<ubuntujenkins> humphreybc: don't nab him :)
<SunK> I have playing around with django for a while
<SunK> nothing fancy though
<humphreybc> ubuntujenkins: hehe
<humphreybc> this would be an HTML5, CSS, javascript thing I would think
<godbyk> jcisio: We're using XeLaTeX and polyglossia.
<godbyk> jcisio: Can you point out a couple spots where the capital letters have been malformed?
<jcisio> î  îáº¯î¤ îáº§î¥ îî°î î¡î¥îî î¦á»î î¥îî¥îî¤î¥ îî.îî
<jcisio> oh no, copy paste from pdf shows weird things
<godbyk> That's okay.
<godbyk> You're looking at the small-caps in the running head?
<godbyk> The manual title at the top of the even-numbered pages?
<jcisio> but in the header (p.8 for example), all letters with accents are in lowercase instead of SMALLCAP
<jcisio> yes
<godbyk> Okay. I'm guessing we don't have small-caps versions of those characters.
<godbyk> I'll file a bug against the font.
<godbyk> If we can't get them soon enough, we can check other fonts.
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk: am i alright to add the el gl and de screenshots to lucid-e1?
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: Sure, go ahead.
<godbyk> Lemme know when you're done. I've got a couple things to push to that branch, too.
<ubuntujenkins> ok will do
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk: pushed r 825
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: thanks
<ubuntujenkins> that is all the complete langauges as far  screenshots are concerned
<godbyk> I just pushed updated translations.
<SunK> ubuntujenkins, humphreybc thanks guys...I'm all setup now
<humphreybc> sweet!
<humphreybc> for anyone wondering what we do in New Zealand: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MoW7boJbkkg
<ubuntujenkins> SunK: cool
<ubuntujenkins> SunK: the code is very messy at the moment last release was a rush to get a working program this release is a rewrite from scratch pretty much
<humphreybc> skinny jeans to UDS or no?
<SunK> ubuntujenkins: oh
<SunK> ubuntujenkins: I was just looking at some of the code
<ubuntujenkins> we will be reusing allot of it, some just needs making better, putting in different places. Comments need to be improved an such like
<SunK> time for me to hit the sack...getting late here
<SunK> will be back...ciao
<ubuntujenkins> ok night SunK I am around day time utc so shout when you are next on
<ubuntujenkins> humphreybc: you know the groundcontrol swirl we were talking about well..........
<humphreybc> ubuntujenkins: yeah?
<ubuntujenkins> we need one thats about 60 x 60 pixels if you stumble across one. Or get bored an feel like designing one :)
<ubuntujenkins> the ground control ones are tiny
<humphreybc> yeah
<humphreybc> okay
<humphreybc> knowing Martin, they'll be vector based SVGs
<ubuntujenkins> they svgs but they look silly huge
<humphreybc> right
<humphreybc> i'll work something out :)
<ubuntujenkins> thanks have a look at ground control to see what they look like its made of 8 image
<humphreybc> okay
<thorwil> humphreybc: no jeans, business suit with tie, if you don't want to be off-beat!
<humphreybc> I don't own a suit, or a tie!
<humphreybc> the nicest thing I have is a sports jacket, with some dark boot cut jeans and a shit underneath. I don't have suits or any of that shiz
<thorwil> humphreybc: now seriously, i saw a lot of 3rd rate t-shirts, jeans, sandals ... but too bad you can't go for a partner look with doctormo ;)
<humphreybc> hahaha
<humphreybc> i thought i saw no suits in the videos i've seen of UDS'
<humphreybc> Martin and I shall be juxtaposed beautifully
<thorwil> a google wave wannabe written in python: http://pygowave.net/  too bad the project looks rather dead
<humphreybc> google wave itself is dead
<godbyk> This doesn't bode well.
<ubuntujenkins> internet again?
<humphreybc> godbyk ?
<godbyk> My PC has been dropped off the network from both of it's network cards over the past couple days.
<godbyk> I originally thought it might be just the network switch it's plugged into.
<humphreybc> lol, you do seem to have a few PC problems
<godbyk> Now I'm guessing it's either the router, the Ethernet cable from the router, or my PC's on-board NICs.
<godbyk> Yeah, I've had it for a while now. It's probably about time to build a new one.
<humphreybc> how long's a while?
<godbyk> Right now I'm connected to the network via a wireless USB dongle.
<godbyk> I think I built this in 2005 or 2006.
<ChrisWoollard> ubuntujenkins: No, I am at work now.
<godbyk> I'll be back in just a couple minutes.
<godbyk> I'm going to trace this Ethernet line and see if something's up with it.
<ubuntujenkins> hey ChrisWoollard
<ChrisWoollard> hello
<humphreybc> hey ChrisWoollard
<ChrisWoollard> humphreybc: Hello
<godbyk> I'm going to reboot my router. I'll be right back.
<ubuntujenkins> hola nisshh
<nisshh> hey
<nisshh> watching some stargate atlantis, thought i might sit in here at the same time
<ubuntujenkins> I am learning activity based costing
<nisshh> ubuntujenkins: what is that??
<ubuntujenkins> nisshh: some finance thing for working out how much a product should be sold for i think.
<ubuntujenkins> wow I know something
<nisshh> ubuntujenkins: right :)
<ubuntujenkins> humphreybc: I think this might be big enough for quickshot http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5012868/process-working.png . what do you think?
<humphreybc> that's nice
<ubuntujenkins> just have to work out how to make it move.
<humphreybc> hehe
<nisshh> everyone check this out: http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2010/05/windicators-ubuntu-meerkat-innovation.html
<ubuntujenkins> I have seen it nisshh . Not convinced it will work but we shall wait and see.
<vish> lol! , weird that a re-post gets more attention than the main post ;)  go OMG ;p
<humphreybc> https://lists.launchpad.net/ayatana/msg01703.html
<humphreybc> some of my thoughts on it
<nisshh> to be honest, the first thing i said was not "WOW!" it was "WHAT!"
<vish> humphreybc: sometimes you could reply just imagining that the world is not depending on your approval ;)
 * vish runs
<humphreybc> hahaha
 * nisshh follows vish
<nisshh> humphreybc: i agree with quite a few of your points there!
<nisshh> to be honest i have no idea how im going to get around this
<nisshh> i want to switch to KDE because of this but at the same time im a GNOME app dev too... AARRRHHH!
<humphreybc> ew, don't switch to KDE
<humphreybc> It's not the end of the world, everything can still be changed
<nisshh> humphreybc: have you tried KDE 4.4.2 SC yet?
<humphreybc> for example, buttons, you can stick them wherever you like
<nisshh> its really good
<humphreybc> yep, hated it
<humphreybc> :)
<nisshh> lol
<nisshh> humphreybc: i also dont really like gnome-shell that much
<humphreybc> gnome shell is also terrible, at least right now
<nisshh> plus the fact that it wont have any decent features for over a year atleast
<nisshh> humphreybc: its not the left placed buttons i have a problem with, i think they are great
<nisshh> plus gnome shell is slower than KDE for me currently
<nisshh> its a CPU hog for intel hardware!
 * nisshh is done ranting now :)
<humphreybc> lol
<nisshh> that made me feel better!
<nisshh> humphreybc: you have to admit that kwin is far better than metacity
<humphreybc> sure
<nisshh> humphreybc: also, iv been working hard on that bzr noob script and its coming together now, it should be ready by the meeting on thursday
<humphreybc> great!
<humphreybc> Ground Control is also fixed apparently
<ubuntujenkins> the total number of manual downloads is  55377
<godbyk> 42 books sold
<ubuntujenkins> nice godbyk I just got a 404 message for one of the stats pages is this e-mail correct? webmaster@stats.ubuntu-manual.org
<ubuntujenkins> humphreybc: ubuntujenkins> the total number of manual downloads is  55377
<ubuntujenkins> <godbyk> 42 books sold
<godbyk> Hmm.. I don't know where that address would go.  Maybe limbo.
<humphreybc> wholly shit
<humphreybc> we're over 50,000!
<humphreybc> surely not *all* of those people are OMG! readers
<ubuntujenkins> 44545 from out site alone 2193 from omg
<humphreybc> hmm
<humphreybc> where did those 44,000 come from though =S
<ubuntujenkins> #ubuntu uses !ubuntu-manual
<ubuntujenkins> alot
<ubuntujenkins> !ubuntu-manual
<manualbot> Factoid 'ubuntu-manual' not found
<humphreybc> oh really?
<ubuntujenkins> !ubuntumanual
<manualbot> Factoid 'ubuntumanual' not found
<ubuntujenkins> !manual
<manualbot> The Ubuntu Manual will help you become familiar with everyday tasks such as surfing the web, listening to music and scanning documents. With an emphasis on easy to follow instructions, it is suitable for all levels of experience. http://ubuntu-manual.org/
<ubuntujenkins> yes I have manual on highlight
<humphreybc> but manualbot doesn't chill out in #ubuntu, does it?
<ubuntujenkins> no manual bot is sinked with ubot
<humphreybc> nice
<ubuntujenkins> synced*
<ubuntujenkins> sebsebseb suggested it for ubot and then manual bot got it
<humphreybc> what's the stats URL again?
<humphreybc> I've switched browsers so it's not there in Midori
<ubuntujenkins> stats.ubuntu-manual.org/downloads/?id=8 and stats.ubuntu-manual.org/downloads/?id=9
<humphreybc> danke
<ubuntujenkins> be back in a bit
<humphreybc> Shock horror!
<nisshh> humphreybc: i thought you didnt like midori??
<humphreybc> I'm warming to it, i've found some more things that allow you to customize it some more
<humphreybc> but the real shock horror is that my window buttons are on the left and they may stay that way
<humphreybc> I actually don't mind em there
<nisshh> humphreybc: enlighten me, im starting to be put off firefox again and chromium is giving me issues
<nisshh> humphreybc: neither do i
<humphreybc> well, you can change Midori to pretend to be Safari or Firefox so Gmail 2.0 works with it, which is good
<nisshh> AND i found out ubuntu tweak can swap them over too
<nisshh> pretend?
<humphreybc> you should add the PPA for midori and get the latest version
<humphreybc> yeah, Google doesn't support the Midori browser, but Gmail works with it anyway, you just have to pretend to be someone else
<nisshh> adding the ppa now
<humphreybc> it's not as refined as Chrome, and it's lacking some features due to it being in GTK, but it makes up for that in raw speed and integrating into your theme
<humphreybc> you have to add the webkit team PPA too
<nisshh> ok
<humphreybc> as far as being stable, it's not as stable as chrome but stable enough. there are a few things I'd change, and a couple of them are already scheduled to be fixed soon
<humphreybc> but yeah, it's cool. make sure you check out the extension "customize toolbar" and also the keyboard shortcuts one
<nisshh> right
<nisshh> humphreybc: you should use chromium instead of chrome
<humphreybc> meh
<humphreybc> I don't like the name :P
<nisshh> grrrr problem with the ubuntu keyserver
<humphreybc> what's the difference, apart from the name and branding?
<humphreybc> oh, and the fact that chrome now has flash built in but chromium doesn't
<nisshh> branding and privacy options
<humphreybc> flash built in = win
<humphreybc> meh, I trust Google. They already know everything about me anyway!
<nisshh> only if they managed to get you naked on streetview!
<humphreybc> lol
<nisshh> hehe, apparently some chick in america appears like 7 times on streetview
<nisshh> creepy or what??
<nisshh> looks like ill have to add the ppas manually
<nisshh> oh freaking hell!
<nisshh> the keyserver is sooooooo sloooooooooww
<humphreybc> lol
<nisshh> what id really like to see is a web browser built purely for speed and without ANY extra features
<nisshh> chromium + midori
<humphreybc> that's sort of midori
<nisshh> grrr cant reach the ubuntu keyserver right now
<nisshh> yea, but midori isnt as fast as chrome yet if you ask me
<nisshh> not quite
<nisshh> if midori used the v8 js engine it would boost its speed
<humphreybc> i find midori faster than chrome
<humphreybc> it has a different way of rendering websites to at least give the impression it's quicker
<nisshh> yea
<humphreybc> because it seems to load stuff as it goes, whereas chrome waits for most of the site to be loaded and then displays it
<nisshh> i have found midori good for just reading online docs and stuff
<nisshh> no flash, java or anything
<humphreybc> it handles flash, java etc
<humphreybc> i'm finding it an ample replacement for chrome at the moment
<nisshh> oh does it? didnt know that
<nisshh> what about extensions? missing them yet?
<nisshh> it does feel naked without them
<humphreybc> it has a few extensions built by the developers, but I never use extensions
<humphreybc> didn't in FF, didn't in chrome
<humphreybc> I don't need dancing hula girls on my browser, I just want to get work done or concentrate on facebook :)
<nisshh> hmmm, the one big turn off is the rather bad ad blocker
<humphreybc> i've never used an ad blocker
<nisshh> very true, no distractions is good
<humphreybc> what does it do?
<humphreybc> blocks ads, obviously
<nisshh> WHAT!?
<humphreybc> i never see ads?
<humphreybc> maybe i just don't go to sites with ads
<nisshh> you never use adblock plus in firefox?
<humphreybc> launchpad and gmail doesn't really have that many ads
<humphreybc> nope
<nisshh> ARE YOU INSANE!?
<nisshh> hehe
<nisshh> adblock plus is only THE MOST POPULAR FF extension!
<nisshh> i think its had over 200 million downloads or something
<nisshh> plus, gmail has ads in it
<popey> mine doesnt
<humphreybc> gmail has like one tiny ad that you can turn off
<humphreybc> i like ads, some of them are quite funny
<nisshh> ok, good point
<popey> humphreybc: get d0od to fix omg
<nisshh> pages do load much quicker without ads
<humphreybc> popey: what's wrong with it?
<nisshh> ads are always the last thing to load
<popey> http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2010/05/canonical-licenses-h264.html
<popey> look at teh first links in that story
<popey> you can't middle click them to open in a new tab
<popey> (which isn't an unreasonable thing to do)
<popey> and if you highlight a piece of text the dumb dropdown thing at the top tries to search those terms online
<humphreybc> I can
<humphreybc> it works okay in Midori
<nisshh> popey: control + click
<popey> not in chrome
<popey> no, middle click works everywhere else
<popey> if i have to change the way I click on your site, then your site is broken
<humphreybc> see, here's an example of what one might consider a "feature" :P
<humphreybc> I personally don't think any of that cruft is necessary
<nisshh> yes
<nisshh> you dont need 7 ways to do the same thing
<popey> middle click has always worked
<popey> since firefox first introduced tabs
<nisshh> just like the new stuff in maverick
<humphreybc> although it is kinda cool how you can hover over the book beside canonical and it brings up a little window with the wiki page
<popey> its not the book, its the whole link
<nisshh> kinda cool = anti-productive
 * humphreybc tries in chrome
<popey> highlight some text too, press ctrl+c to copy, you get the popdown
<humphreybc> you're right, middle click doesn't work but ctrl + click and right click, open in new tab works
<humphreybc> I don't get that in chrome
<humphreybc> Â CanonicalÂ are currentlyÂ Â the only Linux companyÂ to licenseÂ Â H.264/AVC, the patented non-free technology used to compress video and favoured by companies such as Apple & Microsoft for HTML5 Video.
<humphreybc> I can copy stuff without the dropdown appearing
<popey> i am on windows here, dunno if that makes any difference
<humphreybc> i think the middle click thing is just the widget, i don't think Joey can edit that. He'd just have to remove
<humphreybc> remove it*
<nisshh> popey: thats a likely reason
<humphreybc> it probably does something fancy like backlinks to get one more RSS subscriber or something, that's usually a reason :P
<humphreybc> "But this huge amount of crap at the bottom of my articles gets me one more subscriber a month! It's worth it!"
<humphreybc> might be moving to wordpress some time this year anyway
<nisshh> darn it, dont you just hate it when you want to test out something new and you have trouble with a keyserver?
<humphreybc> heh
 * nisshh is now grumpy!
<humphreybc> nisshh: the one in the ubuntu repos is 0.2.2
<humphreybc> the PPA is only 0.2.4
<humphreybc> not a huge difference, if you wanted to install the repo one for now to try it out until the keyserver behaves
<nisshh> dude, 0.2.4 is newer
<nisshh> yea, i have the repo one installed from a week or so ago
<humphreybc> there's an even newer version you can build from source if you want :P
<humphreybc> go into #midori and there's a nice chap in there who will walk you through it
<nisshh> humphreybc: hmmmm, nah!
<popey> ah well, mo more omg for me then
<humphreybc> popey: because of middle clicks?
<humphreybc> that's like changing to fedora because ubuntu moved the window buttons to the left!
<popey> because of both those usability issues
<nisshh> hehe
<popey> i find it incredibily frustrating to use sites that bend/break browser default behaviour
<humphreybc> okay then!
<popey> and the popup things are just stupid
<nisshh> or browsers that break site compatibility!
<popey> on wordpress based sites there's a little "X" you can click to make them go away forever
 * nisshh glares at IE
<popey> omg doesnt have that
<humphreybc> There's an X on my popups
<humphreybc> bitch to Joey about it: joeysneddon@googlemail.com
<nisshh> anyone know of some good rock/metal bands?
<nisshh> humphreybc: how nice of you to suggest that
<nisshh> trying to push my music collection past 4k songs
<nisshh> 3.8k is not enough to listen to in one day
<c7p> nisshh: I've recently found Pearl Jam, they are pretty good
<nisshh> c7p: thanks, ill look them up right now
<nisshh> uuuuhhhh, i just heard i guy on youtube call gwibber g wibber...
<c7p> nisshh: ah, also the scorpions are really good -one of my fav bands- (their best albums are humanity, pure instinct, love at first sting and string in the tail)
<nisshh> c7p: whats your favourite scorpions song?
<c7p> nisshh: it's difficult ... i can't distinguish one :/ this period I like The good die young , Raised on Rock, Sly, Hour 1 and and ....
<nisshh> c7p: thats cool, just getting a picture of the better stuff
<nisshh> humphreybc: just looked at the UMP growth video you made on youtube, thats cool!
<humphreybc> nisshh: yeah, program called "Gource" creates them
<godbyk> I was going to make a video of our web server stats when the manual was released, but ffmpeg hates me, apparently.
<nisshh> godbyk: gstreamer?
<godbyk> nisshh: maybe. the program can export ppm to stdout.
<godbyk> so if gstreamer can read that in and dump to a video of some sort, that should work.
<nisshh> godbyk: dont thank me, i know im a genius!
<godbyk> nisshh: heh.. you'll have to give me the gstreamer chain before I go that far! :)
<nisshh> humphreybc: turns out midori 0.2.4 introduces bookmark export and vim style nav keys
<nisshh> godbyk: hehe
<humphreybc> vim style nav keys?
<nisshh> instead of the arrow keys its
<godbyk> humphreybc: hjkl?
<nisshh> yes, what godbyk said
<humphreybc> wtf
<nisshh> i like the vim style they are using
<nisshh> there is a FF extension you can get that does the same thing too
<nisshh> humphreybc: it is changeable
<humphreybc> i just like it how my browser now matches the rest of the OS
<humphreybc> nisshh: I don't know what you mean by "vim style nav keys"
<nisshh> what do you mean?
<humphreybc> well it's a GTK browser, innit
<nisshh> so instead of using the arrow keys to navigate pages, you use the keys h j k and l
<humphreybc> so it uses the correct theme, window borders, icon set etc
<nisshh> ah right
<humphreybc> i believe they're called "keyboard shortcuts"
<nisshh> no here
<nisshh> http://blog.interlinked.org/tutorials/vim_tutorial.html
<humphreybc> anyway, i  am going to bed!
<nisshh> scroll down to the movement section
<nisshh> lol
<ubuntujenkins> yes the manual from lulu has been dispatched
<godbyk> cool.
<godbyk> mine, too.
<godbyk> Wonder if humphreybc's has been shipped yet.
<godbyk> I think he was shipping it to a US location.
<ubuntujenkins> strange ours are out first
<godbyk> yeah, since he ordered his a couple days earlier.
<godbyk> I'm a little worried and hoping that it'll still get printed/shipped even though that particular revision was replaced by a later revision.
<ubuntujenkins> hmm we will see
<jcisio> someone has translated the whole manual into Vietnamese http://jcisio.com/upload/GettingStarted-0405-vi.pdf and we'll now import it into LP!
<jcisio> Any idea to do it quickly? The document is in .odt
<godbyk> jcisio: I don't know how to do it any faster, I'm afraid.
<ubuntujenkins> jcisio: do you not have it as a vi.po file ?
<jcisio> no, he did the translate from pdf and saved in ODT
<jcisio> so without any LaTeX macro or command
<ubuntujenkins> it could be a long copy and paste session I am afraid . I assumed you had copied the vi.po into the ODT
<ubuntujenkins> and you will have to add all the latex commands back in
<jcisio> from ODT into vi.po, you mean that?
<jcisio> well, LaTeX commands is the big problem, too many change
<jcisio> but no other way, hmm
<ubuntujenkins> nope no other way
<ubuntujenkins> I think you have 3 options.
<ubuntujenkins> 1 translate the po file
<ubuntujenkins> 2 translate in launchpad
<ubuntujenkins> 3 copy and paste the right sentences from the ODT into the po file adding back the latex stuff
<jcisio> hmm, if it were longer, I'd write a script to match each paragraph into the po file, then just adding back latex stuff when reviewing, it's much faster
<jcisio> I think we can do 2+3, so that many people can work at the same time
<jcisio> pb is that few people know the TeX stuffs
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk: do you have your guide link handy?
<godbyk> http://files.ubuntu-manual.org/style-guide.pdf (I think)
<ubuntujenkins> thanks
<ubuntujenkins> jcisio: they is a chapter in there for translators
<jcisio> thanks this is more detailed than the latex-handout
<jcisio> about translation, do I have to translate the define \polang en_US (I can't remember exactly)?
<godbyk> jcisio: Nope, you should leave that as-is.
<godbyk> The style guide is based on the latex handout, but I've added a lot more material.
<godbyk> There will be more coming at some point, too (whenever I get around to it).
<humphreybc> OMG! Ubuntu! podcast is up
<humphreybc> http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2010/05/omg-ubuntu-podcast-ubuntuesday-episode.html
<humphreybc> check it out
 * ubuntujenkins plays it
 * ubuntujenkins counts how many times ubuntu-manual is mentioned :)
<ubuntujenkins> 1
<dutchie> ubuntujenkins: obviously only listened to the first 30 seconds then ;)
<ubuntujenkins> I am listening to it as i type
<humphreybc> lol
<ubuntujenkins> 2 days to spin all of the cd's what?
<ubuntujenkins> that seams a long time
<humphreybc> that's coz it is a long time?
<humphreybc> did we all like the cheesy sketch at the beginning?
<humphreybc> (and my american accent)
<ubuntujenkins> I was trying to work out who you were, I like the "is mac free now" jibe
<humphreybc> lol
<ubuntujenkins> humphreybc: is there anything you can do in murri ?
<humphreybc> murri?
<ubuntujenkins> the other browser thing, you just listed a massive list of stuff you can't do
<humphreybc> ohh right
<humphreybc> heh
<ubuntujenkins> hey SunK o/
<SunK> hello ubuntujenkins
<ubuntujenkins> good day ?
<humphreybc> ubuntujenkins: can you understand me?
<ubuntujenkins> dood has mentioned ubuntu manual twice
<ubuntujenkins> humphreybc:  yes
<humphreybc> does my accent sound cool?
<ubuntujenkins> 2
<ubuntujenkins> your accent sounds great :)
 * hemanth on omgubuntu podcast 
<ubuntujenkins> 3
<humphreybc> great? awesome! i sound really geeky to myself, whereas Joey sounds awesome to me. Ahh, accents.
<ubuntujenkins> three for dood
<humphreybc> see! i was good :D
<ubuntujenkins> your on three
<humphreybc> oh
<humphreybc> :(
<humphreybc> haha
<humphreybc> i love the music i chose to totally just dump in the middle
<ubuntujenkins> to be fair there is a section on it
<ubuntujenkins> *the manual
<humphreybc> i won't be talking about the manual in every episode hahaha
<ubuntujenkins> I know I have started counting in gedit
<humphreybc> hahaha
<humphreybc> have you got to the musical interlude yet?
<ubuntujenkins> yes just now I was very confused I thought body was driving a moped past my window for the first 4 seconds
<ubuntujenkins> then i realised it was my pc
<humphreybc> lol
<humphreybc> LOL
<ubuntujenkins> +hello | daker
<quickshotdevs> daker: Welcome to the channel enjoy your stay :-)
<humphreybc> Joey missed like this gigantic spot of editing
<SunK> ubuntujenkins: is there any bugs I can fix?
<daker> ubuntujenkins, hello
<daker> hhhh
<ubuntujenkins> SunK: not that i am aware off but I have something if you have the knowledge / would like to have a go at doing
<SunK> ubuntujenkins: what is it?
<ubuntujenkins> we are designing the windows in glade but it doesn't show the windows very well. It was suggested by neil that we write a script that can open just which ever window is specified. Or a script for each window. make sense?
<ubuntujenkins> it would save use going trhough the work flow to check the desgin
<humphreybc> HAHAHA
<humphreybc> I never heard Joey's edit of the WHAT MAKES MY KERNEL KRASH intro
<ubuntujenkins> I am on that bit as well
<humphreybc> that's hilarious!
<humphreybc> It's not a very good rant on my part
<humphreybc> I've done better
<SunK> oh
<humphreybc> :P
<SunK> orite
<ubuntujenkins> Is that to much ?
<SunK> i can work on that
<SunK> i'll ask for help if i'm stumbled
<ubuntujenkins> thanks
<ubuntujenkins> If you can make it work for the current windows then we can change the new name into it.
<ubuntujenkins> that would be great :-)
<SunK> okay
<ubuntujenkins> this is neils description of it http://paste.ubuntu.com/427790/
<ubuntujenkins> humphreybc: your rants are not as good as fab's
<humphreybc> fab?
<ubuntujenkins> linux outlaws
<humphreybc> oh right
<humphreybc> my rants will improve
<humphreybc> ;)
<humphreybc> the hardest bit of that entire podcast was coming up with a sketch for the intro lol
<humphreybc> we're gonna do a new sketch each week
<daker> humphreybc, have you done the podcast ?
<humphreybc> daker: yep, it's on omgubuntu.co.uk
<SunK> got it
<humphreybc> also, check out the short review Shane wrote about UMP: http://planet.ubuntu.com/
<humphreybc> top post
<SunK> i'll play with it
<humphreybc> I need to sleep now!
<daker> humphreybc, cheking
<humphreybc> chow!
<ubuntujenkins> thanks SunK, untill we get the new gui functioning there isn't so much to do i am afraid
<ubuntujenkins> bye humphreybc
<ubuntujenkins> I have exams that take priority
<ubuntujenkins> :(
<daker> +help
<quickshotdevs> Factoid 'help' not found
<ubuntujenkins> daker: why do you try the only one i haven't done :)
<daker> hhhh
<ubuntujenkins> +qssource
<quickshotdevs> The main development focus for the gui can be viewed by doing "bzr branch lp:quickshot"  . The server source is "bzr branch lp:quickshot/server ".  You can browse it here https://code.launchpad.net/quickshot
<ubuntujenkins> +use
<quickshotdevs> 1 - Open Quickshot (Applications â Accessories â Quickshot)   2 - Create a Quickshot user and login   3 - Let Quickshot set your screen resolution   4 - Download the list of screenshots   5 - Choose a screenshot   6 - Set your desktop up   7 - Capture, Compare and Upload.
<ubuntujenkins> etc
<daker> +ppa
<quickshotdevs> Already using Ubuntu 10.04? Add our PPA by running these commands in a terminal(Applications â Accessories â Terminal):  $ sudo add-apt-repository ppa:quickshotdevs/quickshot-release   $ sudo apt-get update   $ sudo apt-get install quickshot'
<daker> :)
<ubuntujenkins> +help >> daker
<quickshotdevs> Factoid 'help >' not found
<ubuntujenkins> +help > daker
<quickshotdevs> daker, please see my private message
<dutchie> humphrebc does have a ridiculous accent :)
<daker> dutchie, lol
<daker> ubuntujenkins, it seems that there was a problem
<daker> <daker> +ppa
<daker> <quickshotdevs> Error: "+ppa" is not a valid command.
<daker> <quickshotdevs> Already using Ubuntu 10.04? Add our PPA by running these commands in a terminal(Applications â Accessories â Terminal):  $ sudo add-apt-repository ppa:quickshotdevs/quickshot-release   $ sudo apt-get update   $ sudo apt-get install quickshot'
<ubuntujenkins> hmm i thought that only happend for me
<dutchie> supybot is getting confused :)
<dutchie> the main bot tries to read the command, and so does the factoid plugin
<daker> ubuntujenkins, on thursday i'll will show you my new bot
<ubuntujenkins> sweet daker
<dutchie> no more bots! ;)
<dutchie> also, haha at "tixt"
<ubuntujenkins> dutchie: commands are a different symbol
<daker> dutchie, just to learn
<ubuntujenkins> which is why i don't know what it is doing
<dutchie> ubuntujenkins: not in pm
<dutchie> it responds to everything in pm
<dutchie> daker: i was only joking
<ubuntujenkins> dutchie: I bet thats a silly setting somewhere
 * ubuntujenkins gets digging
<ubuntujenkins> dutchie: manual bot does the same for me
<dutchie> i might subscribe to this podcast just to laugh at ben's accent
<dutchie> ubuntujenkins: i know
<ubuntujenkins> fair enough, I'll let you know if i find it
<daker> ubuntujenkins, there is a bug here http://screenshots.ubuntu-manual.org/
<daker> look at the vi language
<ubuntujenkins> the whole date thing?
<daker> yes
<ubuntujenkins> doesn't matter it works to the function it is needed. not sure whats causing the error.
<ubuntujenkins> feel free to solve it, not sure if we are using it in the next release
<daker> this is not a bug, just warning
<jcisio> hello, how often translation in LP is pushed into bzr?
<dutchie> when we get round to it
<jcisio> what if I export the po and push myself?
<dutchie> i'd rather you didn't, in case you break stuff
<jcisio> ok thanks, I'll export and test it in local, though
<ptux> hi all.
<ptux> i'm reading the ubuntu manual and i'd like to kow if it exist an italian translation of it.
<dutchie> nearly
<jcisio> Italian? 40/1647 translated!
<dutchie> well, I say nearly, it's about 3% done
<ubuntujenkins> ptux: you can help here https://translations.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual
<ubuntujenkins> if you like :)
<ptux> ubuntujenkins, with a great pleasure.
<ubuntujenkins> you should also read this
<ubuntujenkins> +umstyle
<quickshotdevs> http://files.ubuntu-manual.org/style-guide.pdf This is useful for translators to find out what latex stuff needs translating
<ubuntujenkins> its very helpful ptux
<ptux> i started a privat translation of your book... but i think that with a group could be better. ;)
<daker> see you guys :)
<ubuntujenkins> see you daker
<ubuntujenkins> ptux: have fun :P
<jcisio> exactly ptux, do it on launchpad is way more beautiful
<ptux> i'll do, jcisio. thanks for ur suggestion ;p
 * ubuntujenkins shouts at matlab
<dutchie> do it by hand!
<ubuntujenkins> its one of those things you have to hand in as a script. not sure it want to do it by hand its long winded
<ChrisWoollard> ubuntujekins: I didn't know about that style guide. It looks very useful.
<ptux> ok, thanks for information, i'll let u know more in a few days. see u soon.
<ubuntujenkins> ChrisWoollard: you have godbyk to thank for that.
<ChrisWoollard> I noticed this name stamped on it
<ChrisWoollard> godbyk: thanks :)
<ChrisWoollard> if only that file was linked to on the "Getting Involved" page of the wiki.
<ubuntujenkins> yes the launchpad build queue is short \o/
<dieki> Hey, I was noticing that the "Buy the book" button on the manual's website doesn't match the website or Ubuntu's colors. I've created a hopefully much better button here: http://ubuntuone.com/p/2Cx/
<ubuntujenkins> dieki: thanks for the contribution you will have to take it up with humphreybc (ben) or daker . neither are here I suggest you e-mail the list ubuntu-manual@lists.launchpad.net
<dieki> Alright, I will.
<ubuntujenkins> thanks dieki
<jcisio_> godbyk, I don't know why, but by compiling with the exported vi.po, problem with accent letters in small-caps 's gone
<ubuntujenkins> +seen godbyk
<quickshotdevs> I have no seen command
<ubuntujenkins> seen godbyk
<ubuntujenkins> jcisio_: I think godbyk is asleep
<ubuntujenkins> -seen godbyk
<quickshotdevs> ubuntujenkins: godbyk was last seen in #ubuntu-manual 3 hours, 13 minutes, and 23 seconds ago: <godbyk> There will be more coming at some point, too (whenever I get around to it).
<jcisio_> ok I'll tell him later, thanks
 * dutchie buys a hard copy
<ubuntujenkins> dutchie: wait
<ubuntujenkins> if you haven't got it try using FREESHIP promo code
<ubuntujenkins> dutchie: ^
<dutchie> don't know if i went past that
<dutchie> thanks
<ubuntujenkins> dutchie: makes it Â£5.17 or it did for me
<dutchie> Subtotal (GBP) Â£2.18
<dutchie> :D
<dutchie> oh, before shipping
<ubuntujenkins> add the postage Â£2.99
<dutchie> yeah
<jcisio> I made a customized titlepage-vi.svg, should I push it into bzr?
<ubuntujenkins> jcisio: Whats custom about it?
<dutchie> it's in vietnamese?
<jcisio> I've just translated the title and team name, resize the title to fit the width
<jcisio> yes vietnamese
<ubuntujenkins> jcisio: I think if the translations are done in the po file I think that is all done automatically.
<jcisio> no it is not done automatically
<jcisio> there're a few other languages in titlepage folder
<jcisio> and a bash script to generate customize titlepage, but I'm not sure how it works
<ubuntujenkins> I suggest you send it to the list as thorwill will probably want to review it.
<jcisio> ok thanks
 * ubuntujenkins has fixed all the missing dependants in the ppa, now to wait for them to build
<ubuntujenkins> night all
<dutchie> night ubuntujenkins
<c7p> night
<ubuntujenkins> night dutchie and c7p
<c7p> night all
<dutchie> night
#ubuntu-manual 2010-05-05
<SunK> ubuntujenkins :  hello
<jcisio> hello
<jcisio> godbyk, I don't know why, but by compiling with the exported vi.po, problem with accent letters in small-caps 's gone
<godbyk> jcisio: Could you email me a copy of your vi.po file?  (kevin@ubuntu-manual.org)
<godbyk> With my copy it's still making some characters lowercase.
<jcisio> http://jcisio.com/upload/um-lucid-e1-vi.po the po and http://jcisio.com/upload/ubuntu-manual-vi.pdf the compiled pdf
<godbyk> jcisio: It looks like the title in that pdf isn't the same as in my pdf, though.
<godbyk> In my pdf it has "bat dau" at the beginning.
<jcisio> yes, but I've just removed the first two words
<godbyk> (I've left out the diacritics because I'm too lazy to find 'em at the moment. Sorry!)
<jcisio> :)
<godbyk> My concern is that there may be other small-caps characters that are missing. But I guess we can check them on a case-by-case basis.
<jcisio> was "Báº¯t Äáº§u lÃ m quen vá»i Ubuntu", now is "LÃ m quen vá»i Ubuntu"
<godbyk> We only use small-caps for the running heads and for acronyms.
<godbyk> Yeah. It was the áº¯ and áº§ that were missing small-caps variants.
<jcisio> in the next to the last word "vá»i", the "á»" is not ASCII or Latin1, but displays well
<godbyk> We're using the Linux Libertine font for the main body text (and the running heads).  It has a pretty decent set of glyphs available.
<jcisio> yes godbyk, I've tested in OOo and the font worked
<godbyk> 'kay.
<jcisio> when you compile with my po it worked?
<godbyk> I'll be right back. I'm going to fix something to eat.
<godbyk> I haven't tried yet. I'll give it a shot soon, though.
<jcisio> and then try to add "Báº¯t Äáº§u" at the beginning ;)
<godbyk> Is your po from the translations in launchpad?
<jcisio> yes
<jcisio> as the one in bzr is not very up to date
<godbyk> jcisio: Yeah, the files in bzr must be manually updated at the moment.
<godbyk> I will be updating them more frequently now since I will be focusing more on getting the translated versions working.
<godbyk> (Up to this point, my focus has been on the primary English version.)
<jcisio> just a notice, the step to make for my compilation is:
<jcisio> the first time (when get it from bzr): make ubuntu-manual-vi.pdf;touch ubuntu-manual-vi.tex;make ubuntu-manual-vi.pdf;make clean;make ubuntu-manual-vi.pdf
<jcisio> after that, make ubuntu-manual-vi.pdf always works as expected
<jcisio> I haven't check the Makefile, but the first pdf is not fully indexed (latex is not run enough?), need to run make again
<jcisio> time for a shower and go to school soon
<jcisio> I'll check the irclog godbyk
<godbyk> back now.
<godbyk> k
<ubuntujenkins> morning all
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk: I fixed some of the build dependats in my ppa last night all they will all be built by tonight so I can test them again
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: awesome!
<ubuntujenkins> the build  queue short now so the adding more will take less time
<hemanth> ubuntujenkins, have you documented your steps ? cos i will be useful for all other who wants to try packing, it was texlive that you have packed right?
<ubuntujenkins> hemanth: I am just getting the latest stuff from debian and poping it in a ppa . Packaging texlive can be done but it is allot of work, I decided to do it only if i have to. (ie the stuff from debian doesn't work enough)
<hemanth> ubuntujenkins, okies, you mean porting from Debian to Ubuntu?
<ubuntujenkins> I am porting from debian to my ppa at the moment . I think the packages i am using are in lucid or slightly newer depending on which one it is.
<ubuntujenkins> some stuff we need isin't in ubuntu but is in debian
<thorwil> godbyk: hi! seems i need a warning if a title or author translation changes. like just happened for vietnamese
<godbyk> thorwil: yeah, I'm not sure what's going on there yet.
<thorwil> godbyk: checked in titlepage-vi.svg with new translation and answered on the list, explaining the situation
<godbyk> thorwil: cool. thanks!
<godbyk> Apparently someone's translated the entirety of the Vietnamese manual -- but they did the translation in OpenOffice.
<godbyk> So now they're pasting it into Launchpad, I guess.
<thorwil> yeah, read that. ouch
<wyh> hi there, I want to know  the relationship between the website translation under ubuntu-manual and ubuntu-manual-website
<godbyk> wyh: They should be the same.
<godbyk> wyh: Original the website was under the ubuntu-manual branch. We then split it off into its own branch.
<godbyk> wyh: But since most translators weren't/aren't aware of the new branch, we thought we'd continue to copy the translation template file to the original location.
<wyh> godbyk: but now I see it again under ubuntu-manual...
<godbyk> Launchpad will share the translated strings across the ubuntu-manual and ubuntu-manual-website projects.
<godbyk> Hmm.. let me talk to vish (our web dev guy) and see which set of translations he uses on the site.  I'll have him post a response to the list.
<wyh> godbyk: oh, that's it. problem is some translations done to ubuntu-manual-website is not applied back in ubuntu-manual
<wyh> I'm a little confused... Can they sync automatically?
<godbyk> I have to manually sync the template file from the website to ubuntu-manual.
<godbyk> But if the string to be translated matches exactly, then Launchpad will share it between the two projects.
<wyh> godbyk: yes, I can see them as suggestions.
<wyh> So translate those under ubuntu-manual-website?
<godbyk> oh, they're just suggestions? understood.
<godbyk> wyh: Yeah, translate them under ubuntu-manual-website for now.
<godbyk> I'll pester daker when I see him next and ask which set of translations he's using on the site.
<godbyk> I think the -website one is the canonical version (as the ubuntu-manual one is just a copy), but I'm not absolutely positive.
<wyh> godbyk: as far as I see, some translations are not applied on the site. so most likely you use the ubuntu-manual one
<godbyk> Well, the translation files must be manually updated for you to see their affect on the site.
<wyh> The ubuntu-manual-website one is fully translated
<godbyk> It doesn't happen automatically.
<wyh> and so is the ubuntu-manual one now. I updated it just now
<godbyk> Okay, thanks!
<wyh> godbyk: :) not many strings, fortunately
<godbyk> Unlike the manual, right? :)
<wyh> godbyk: no. I think the manual is huge work...
<wyh> godbyk: I'm trying to get started with its translation
<godbyk> Yeah, there's a lot of content in the manual.
<godbyk> Which translation/language are you working on?
<wyh> tricky thing is keeping consistent, and tex keywords
<wyh> godbyk: Chinese simplified
<godbyk> Ah, okay.  That one's just getting started, I think.
<jcisio> yes I think so, that's what many says in the mailgroup too: consistence with Ubuntu translation
<wyh> godbyk: I tried to translate some. I'm è±å on launchpad
<jcisio> Is there any chance that \menu{thing} searches in the appropriate po and automatically replace "thing"?
<godbyk> jcisio: I'm afraid not.
<wyh> jcisio: regexp would do
<godbyk> \menu{thing} just formats 'thing' to be in bold.
<wyh> jcisio: but I'm not good at that...
<godbyk> It's a cool idea, though.
<jcisio> yeah
<jcisio> maybe in a layer above po4a, a python script with regexp could do that
<jcisio> problem is that the translation is huge with thousands of modules, thus thousands of POs
<godbyk> Yeah, we'd need to know what program the menu is in, so we know which po file to look in.
<godbyk> But it seems like some relatively simple AI stuff could help out there.
<godbyk> We're going to be discussing a lot of translation-related improvements soon, I hope.
<godbyk> We want to get together with a bunch of the translators and see what ideas they have for making this process suck less.
<godbyk> If we can write some software that would help, then we're all for that.
<jcisio> well, I might try it
<jcisio> not a Python script, but a PHP one
<jcisio> merge the whole po, remove relative long stuffs, then read and replace in ubuntu-manual/po
<jcisio> the sole problem is that I don't know how to get po lol
<godbyk> With the po files for software programs, do they flag whether a string refers to a menu item, button, etc.?
<godbyk> You can download the po file.
<jcisio> no
<jcisio> but such items are exact strings
<godbyk> Go here: https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual, select your language, select the ubuntu-manual project, then click the "Download translation" link at the top.
<godbyk> I didn't know if the translated string may be different on a button than as a menu item for some languages, though.
<jcisio> if there is a \menu{thing} in manual (I don't say those with \then, it needs special treatment)
<jcisio> there's a great chance that in some po there's something like msgid "thing"
<godbyk> Yeah, you're probably right.
<godbyk> \then just prints the arrow.
<jcisio> I mean how to get the PO of all ubuntu package
<godbyk> So you could read everything inside the \menu braces {} and split on \then, strip out the surrounding spaces and you'll have a list of menu names and menu items.
<godbyk> Oh!
<jcisio> yes
<godbyk> Good question. I'm not sure either.
<godbyk> You can get them from the language-pack-* files -- at least the compiled versions.
<godbyk> Maybe the source versions of those packages contain the .po files?
<jcisio> and how huge that is... but by take care of only small string we may resolve 99% strings
<jcisio> yes it should contain
<godbyk> you could use the gettext library to search each .mo file (the compiled .po file) for the string, too.
<jcisio> do you know where are those files?
<jcisio> (for installed apps)
<godbyk> look around in /usr/share/locale-langpack, for instances.
<godbyk> instance, rather.
<jcisio> ah yes
 * jcisio should have done find / *.mo
<godbyk> If you've installed language-pack-gnome-es, for example, you can run 'dpkg -L language-pack-gnome-es' to see the files/directories that it installed.
<jcisio> I think it'd be better ask those things in #ubuntu
<humphreybc> hey guys
<godbyk> hey
<dutchie> humphreybc: your accent makes me laugh so much
<humphreybc> dutchie: lol, really?
<dutchie> i was cracking up while listening to the omgubuntu podcast
<humphreybc> everyone, check out the updated meeting agenda https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Meetings
<humphreybc> dutchie: you're meant to be laughing at our lame jokes, not my accent!
<humphreybc> btw, Joey has re-edited the podcast to fix some stuff he missed, I think it's better now
<nisshh> dutchie: downloading that podcast now
<vish> humphreybc: http://www.mdke.org/?p=102 :s
<humphreybc> vish: seen it
<humphreybc> last paragraph is interesting
<humphreybc> looks like they're learning something from us though
<godbyk> I can't download it 'cause it's been pulled offline for a bit, apparently.
<humphreybc> godbyk, I think Joey is in the middle of replacing the old one with the newly edited one
<nisshh> hehe, only just saw that...
<nisshh> looks like its going to be a looooooooooooooooonnnnnnnnnngggggggg thursday night for me
<nisshh> be up all night, hehe...
<vish> humphreybc: well its bout time they learned ;)
<humphreybc> vish: heh, yeah
<ubuntujenkins> I have the book!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
<humphreybc> really!?
<humphreybc> wtf!
<ubuntujenkins> yes
<humphreybc> awesome!
<humphreybc> take photos
<humphreybc> and put them online for us to see,
<humphreybc> NAOW
<humphreybc> wtf my status is still "fulfilling"
<humphreybc> I'm having doubts as to whether it will arrive at Martin's in time
<ubuntujenkins> am i the first?
<humphreybc> yes!
<humphreybc> bollocks, i have a clash at UDS
<humphreybc> UNE default app selection vs communication with translators via launchpad
<humphreybc> I guess I can't go to UNE default app selection, then
<humphreybc> I can remotely participate in one while physically being in the other :P
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: nice! mine has shipped, but hasn't arrived yet.
<humphreybc> still fulfilling here... not good
<ubuntujenkins> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5012868/manualimages.zip
<ubuntujenkins> does it owrk
<ubuntujenkins> the white balance is rubish but i have to run to a lecture
<ubuntujenkins> humphreybc: ^
<humphreybc> kk
<humphreybc> downloading now
<ubuntujenkins> I will do more when i have time
<humphreybc> show us the binding!
<humphreybc> the paper looks quite thin, is that the regular paper or the cheap stuff?
<ubuntujenkins> paper is thin I will mail the binding tonight
 * ubuntujenkins runs like mad
<humphreybc> lol okay
<humphreybc> godbyk how many people have bought the book now?
<godbyk> 47, I think.
<humphreybc> and can you please remove the cheap paper special edition?
<godbyk> It's already been removed.
<godbyk> It was never public to begin with.
<humphreybc> oh okay
<humphreybc> it was showing up under my "recently viewed" but I didn't see that, I thought it was similar books
<godbyk> you could only access it if you had the direct url.
<humphreybc> kay
<nisshh> darn it! the podcast still isnt up
<humphreybc> i think he's having upload problems
<nisshh> shame we have to wait so long for one audio file... :(
<lun4tic> sry to ask this stupid question but do we have an ETA when the german ubuntu-manual is finished and if not do you need any translators or helpers to read translated stuff through?
<nisshh> humphreybc: ^
<humphreybc> godbyk, see above
<godbyk> lun4tic: I think the translation has been finished. We need to read through it and fix any mistakes.
<godbyk> Then we need to edit things a bit to make sure it looks good and get it ready to print.
<lun4tic> is there any posibility to get the whole .tex file of the book?
<humphreybc> lun4tic: Any help with editing would be great
<lun4tic> i just seen things to get translation files
<lun4tic> somehow a "full beta" of the book ^^
<lun4tic> i'm native german so i could help translate :)
<lun4tic> of correct stuff
<godbyk> lun4tic: I can email you the current .tex file if you like.
<godbyk> lun4tic: You'll need to make any translation fixes in launchpad, though as the .tex file is generated from the launchpad translations.
<lun4tic> godbyk: jup i thought so but a prerelease that i could read through as generated book here locally is a bit easier to read then a tex file :D
<godbyk> right
<godbyk> I made one a couple days ago and posted it: http://builds.ubuntu-manual.org/builds/ubuntu-manual-de.pdf
<lun4tic> i'd like both :)
<lun4tic> done a documentation project with tex not long ago
<lun4tic> so i'm kind of used to it but at a very basic level
<humphreybc> lun4tic: you sound like our man, familiar with tex, can speak german and english :)
<lun4tic> hehe
<lun4tic> some things in german are rather strange...
<humphreybc> we would _love_ to get the german one out asap, so if you would like to take on the role of editor for that language and work with godbyk to make sure it's of a high quality, we would be very happy
<humphreybc> heh, I know, I studied german for 4 years
<lun4tic> cause there are so many experssions allready taken from english language
<lun4tic> if the book is "too german" people wouldn't understand it anymore i guess ^^
<humphreybc> haha
<lun4tic> the older readers are the more german you#ll have to make it to make non technicians understand it XD
<godbyk> lun4tic: I've emailed you a copy of the .tex file.
<lun4tic> thanks
<lun4tic> in example germans are kind of used to the word "download"
<lun4tic> but if you ask older people they don't know what the f it means ^^
<humphreybc> heh
<lun4tic> but i guess all people who are understanding stuff so far that they are going to try ubuntu they will also understand what a download is
<nisshh> humphreybc: the podcast download is up now
<humphreybc> cool!
<nisshh> uh, what i just said didnt make any sense
<nisshh> hehe
<humphreybc> haha
<nisshh> wow, its gone from 1 hour 20 mins to 30 mins long apparently!
<nisshh> humphreybc: did you natter while being interviewed again?
<humphreybc> yeah, read the thing on the post
<humphreybc> there's a note just above the download link
<nisshh> saw it
<nisshh> got the .ogg version
<humphreybc> i'd recommend adding the rbox feed
<humphreybc> you can skip better than in oggs
<humphreybc> AND you get the latest one when it's released next!
<lun4tic> godbyk: whats the build command?
<nisshh> yep
<lun4tic> pdflatex says some ubuntu-manual.cls is missing
<godbyk> lun4tic: If you've checked out the source from the bzr repository and have TeX Live 2009 (from upstream) installed, you can run 'make ubuntu-manual-de.pdf' to build the German PDF.
<nisshh> lol, its so funny!
<lun4tic> ok
<godbyk> lun4tic: http://ubuntu-manual.org/getinvolved/authors has instructions for getting it all up and running.
<nisshh> very nice audio quality!
<humphreybc> thanks!
<humphreybc> we're working on making the audio quality even better for next wek
<humphreybc> week*U
<humphreybc> blah
<humphreybc> did you like our sketch?
<humphreybc> (at the start)
<nisshh> yea, hehe that was good
<humphreybc> lol
<nisshh> very cool
<lun4tic> thx
<nisshh> be back a little later, gonna go watch tv for a bit
<godbyk> lun4tic: no problem. we're actually using xelatex to build the pdf. makes the translation stuff easier.
<lun4tic> k didn't do any translation stuff with tex yet :D
<lun4tic> just did some manuals in german and english with two seperate files XD
<humphreybc> Joey removed the CC song of the week from the second podcast edit :(
<lun4tic> are the screenshots finished allready?
<lun4tic> or is there still some quickshot work to do
<lun4tic> still downloading from bzr... slow connection here ^^
<c7p> hello. Guys the following sentence is correct ? "When a contact wants to send you a file, the status icon to the left of the contact's name will flash with an icon of a paper plane."
<godbyk> lun4tic: http://screenshots.ubuntu-manual.org/
<lun4tic> i'd write something like  "When a contact wants to send you a file, the status icon to the left of the contact's name will show a paper plane."
<lun4tic> or something like that
<godbyk> c7p: It's grammatically correct, yes.  Just a bit lengthy. :)
<c7p> ok ty :)
<c7p> I think I've missed sth about translated pdfs or not ?
<c7p> godbyk, will you generate the pdfs or we will have to compile them ?
<godbyk> c7p: I will occasionally generate them and upload them to http://builds.ubuntu-manual.org/
<c7p> godbyk: nice :), when will the final translated release will come out officially?
<godbyk> c7p: After it's been edited.
<godbyk> There's no set time-table. We'll release each translation as they're completed.
<c7p> so you need an editor for each language i guess
<godbyk> c7p: Yes, exactly.
<godbyk> I'm going bring up this plan on Thursday's meeting. I don't think anyone will object.  Once everyone's on board, we'll send an email to the list and start getting volunteer editors for each translation.
<godbyk> We'll release each translation once it's been approved by the editor.
<c7p> so tomorrow we will know what an editor will have to do
<lun4tic> hm... according to the pdf from german ubuntu forums there are no german screenshots..
<lun4tic> ok people... i got work to do... XD
<humphreybc> hehe
<humphreybc> http://screenshots.ubuntu-manual.org/
<humphreybc> this says that all german screenshots have been finished
<lun4tic> quickshot opens a extra X Server?
<humphreybc> maybe they just haven't been added into the PDF yet.
<lun4tic> with standard theme and stuff?
<lun4tic> at least i read that somewhere ^^
<lun4tic> humphreybc: k so i wait till i have the most recent bzr version
<lun4tic> till now i just have the forum pdf
<humphreybc> okay
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins has to add the completed screenshots to the lucid-e1 branch.
<humphreybc> :)
<humphreybc> there ya go
<humphreybc> lun4tic: just keep pestering godbyk and ubuntujenkins
<godbyk> I think he's added them already, actually, and I just haven't recompiled the PDF since.
<lun4tic> ok so you need someone to keep you from getting lazy...? ;-)
<humphreybc> lun4tic: not quite, more someone to keep reminding us to do something
<humphreybc> we get buried in work, somewhat
<humphreybc> if you come to the meeting tomorrow you'll see how much we have to power through this cycle!
<lun4tic> irc meeting?
<lun4tic> or live
<lun4tic> ehm howto connect bzr with launchpad? any howto links?
<godbyk> irc meeting
<godbyk> lun4tic: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Meetings
<godbyk> lun4tic: I think that's covered here: http://ubuntu-manual.org/getinvolved/authors
<lun4tic> think i got the "whoami stuff wrong
<c7p> i need some help on step 4 for the creation of SHH keys, Step 4: Next, enter then confirm a password to protect your SSH key. Your key pair is stored in ~/.ssh/ as id_rsa.pub (public key) and id_rsa (private key)
<godbyk> c7p: Sure. What's the snag?
<c7p> the password would be one that i have thougt or it is stored on a file
<c7p> eg ~/.ssh/ as id_rsa.pub (public key) and id_rsa (private key)
<lun4tic> c7p: normally you have the password for your private key
<c7p> ok ty
<godbyk> If you enter a blank password, then you won't be prompted for a password when you use the key to log in to another service.
<lun4tic> or you can enter one and do some "PIM" stuff so that it is authorizes when you logon
<lun4tic> don't remember all the packages
<lun4tic> some gnome login pim... kind of package name ^^
<lun4tic> bzr is still unable to access launchpad
<godbyk> lun4tic: what's it saying?
<godbyk> lun4tic: you need to be a member of the ubuntu-manual team.
<godbyk> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-manual
<lun4tic> done that waiting ... seems to work.... waiting...
<lun4tic> XD
<lun4tic> ok
<lun4tic> got the wrong user name and there is an entry in the howto missing
<lun4tic> i gotta do something like "bzr launchpad-login myusername"
<lun4tic> so that launchpad uses my ssh key
<godbyk> that's true, you do need to do that.
<lun4tic> bzr tells me that but it is still missing in the online howto :D
<godbyk> I think bzr warns you about that when you run it and haven't already set the launchpad-login.
<godbyk> right.
<godbyk> I'll add that to our TODO list. :)
<humphreybc> lol
<lun4tic> and for real authors that are absolutely not familiar with the whole technical stuff that needs to be simplified for sure
 * humphreybc fetches TODO list from other end of the multiverse 
<humphreybc> lun4tic: we're working on ideas for that one
<lun4tic> i mean i know people that know many languages and want to help ^^
<humphreybc> something like an online, collaborative, real time editor would be nice
<lun4tic> for example one african guy who knows arabic, french, english and german :)
<lun4tic> humphreybc: jup. some software that doesn't need any knowledge of either tex or ssh
<lun4tic> but ssh is important so that we don't get any bots or guys that just want to troll the service ^^
<c7p> godbyk, it is 100% guaranteed that if i install the essential latex collections, i won't have any problem?
<godbyk> c7p: If you install using the instructions on that site (with the full scheme), you'll be all set.
<godbyk> If you install with just the essential scheme, you'll need to install some extra packages.
<godbyk> you can run the pkgs/install-pkgs.sh script to install those extra packages for you, though.
<c7p> the instructions of the installation of Latex should be described with more detail i think
<c7p> on the "Select a scheme:" screen what should i do ?
<godbyk> c7p: Which scheme is currently selected?
<godbyk> I think the full scheme is about 2.5 GB of downloads.
<c7p> full scheme
<godbyk> Other schemes are smaller, but then you'll need to install a few extra packages.
<godbyk> If you're willing to wait for the download, have the bandwidth and disk space, I'd recommend full.
<godbyk> Then your bases are covered for any future stuff we do.
<c7p> ok i will install everything :P
<c7p> it will take about one and a half hour
<lun4tic> 2.5GB
<lun4tic> ok see you tomorrow... XD
<lun4tic> 384Kbit/s line here -.-
<nisshh> heh, midori 0.2.4 gets 100/100 on the acid3 test...
<godbyk> see ya, lun4tic
<lun4tic> godbyk: just kidding... ^^
<godbyk> :)
<nisshh> lun4tic: hehe...
<godbyk> It takes quite a while to download and install.
<lun4tic> cant i just checkout english and german?
<lun4tic> cause i guess the whole build is every language with every screenshot in every language available XD
<lun4tic> ahm.. i mean source not build
<godbyk> You mean from our bzr repository?
<nisshh> http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2010/05/easy-to-use-lucid-themed-conky-bar.html
<lun4tic> jup
<godbyk> Not really.
<nisshh> check that out ^^^
<godbyk> Each language is only 0.5 - 1.0 MB, though.
<godbyk> Most of the repository space is filled with garbage that really shouldn't be there.
<godbyk> (I'm cleaning it all up for the second edition.)
<lun4tic> godbyk: cleanup on isle 5! i repeat cleanup on isle 5 NOW XD
<godbyk> There's a TON of stuff that doesn't need to be there.
<godbyk> A few variations of the website still reside in there, for instance.
<lun4tic> the whole stuff generated by the build i guess
<lun4tic> ahm... i wasn't kidding about the 384kbit/s line... ^^
<lun4tic> just about logging off ^^
<lun4tic> if it takes too long i gotta go to campus and download it there. would take about 1min... ^^
<ubuntujenkins> what screenshots am i missing?
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk: Is it german?
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: um.. vietnamese
<godbyk> german's in there.
<godbyk> I think I just haven't updated the pdfs since you put it there, though.
<ubuntujenkins> no I haven't done that they are complete, see if i can do it quicksly now
<ubuntujenkins> all the approved screenshots so far are here just if i am not around and you need them https://code.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual-screenshots
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: cool, thanks. I don't think there's a huge rush.
<lun4tic> found something wrong on the german manual
<godbyk> I have plenty of tex-related things I need to get going first. :)
<godbyk> lun4tic: what's that?
<lun4tic> i don't have to have full sources just find the web entry right?
 * ubuntujenkins gggr bzr is bing anoying
<godbyk> other than the fact that makeglossaries hates me?
<lun4tic> they are talking about the "enable" option on the firewall gui
<lun4tic> but in german the checkbox is called "Aktiviert"
<godbyk> k
<lun4tic> guess it was some single word translation without context that got that wrong :)
<godbyk> could've been.
<godbyk> or it may have been something that got changed in the UI after that part of the manual was written.
<lun4tic> or maybe because ubuntu got some localisation updates before release that fixed the firewall gui
<godbyk> if it's a bug in just the german translation, feel free to fix it via launchpad.
<godbyk> if it's also a bug in the english version, please file a bug in launchpad so we can fix it for the second edition.
<ubuntujenkins> ok bzr is being anoying it will have to wait until later
<lun4tic> "Firewall" is another thing in the german translation
<lun4tic> someone suggested "Schutzwall" but NOBODY knows that that has something to do woth computers ^^ when germans here "Schutzwall" most of them will think of the berlin wall...
<lun4tic> with*
<lun4tic> Firewall has no translation in german :)
<lun4tic> we're kind of used to that english term ^^
<lun4tic> aha i thought of something like that
<lun4tic> https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/lucid-e1/+pots/ubuntu-manual/de/1481/+translate
<lun4tic> the "enable" somehow is automatically filled in i guess
<lun4tic> so where can i fix that translation?
<lun4tic> "\checkbox{Enable}-Option." --> "enable" -option. none of the german users i know that do not speak english knows what an "enable option" is ^^
<godbyk> Just find the string right there in launchpad and edit it.
<lun4tic> so i gotta find "enable"?
<godbyk> yep.
<godbyk> well, the strings in launchpad are generally entire paragraphs.
<godbyk> so you can search for anything in that paragraph to help find the proper string.
<lun4tic> hm... still sounds strange in german to talk about an "enable" option even if it is translated
<godbyk> then just suggest a better translation.
<lun4tic> in german you would say something like "set the option to activated"
<godbyk> be sure to follow any rules the German translation team has set out.
<lun4tic> is it possible to search for single strings?
<godbyk> sure.
<lun4tic> if i search for "enable" i get all stuff that has enable somewhere in it but im looking for the single word only
<godbyk> oh.
<godbyk> well, it's surrounded by {}, right? search for {Enable}
<lun4tic> jup
<lun4tic> "\checkbox{Enable}"
<lun4tic> i guess it has no translation because some translator thought it was a function and must stay like that
<lun4tic> or maybe it's a bug and doesn't show the label of the checkbox
<godbyk> hard to say.
<jcisio> good news: I nearly finish a tool to automatically translate menu/button/window... name
<godbyk> cool!
<jcisio> 3 GB of po in total, it parse 27 MB vi po files in a second and replace the manual in another one second!
<jcisio> well, it rests the \then problem, and it'll finish
<godbyk> nice!
<godbyk> you'll have to email me a copy of it when you've finished it. I'd love to take a look at it!
<jcisio> godbyk, do you know how to use English sentence for untranslated string?
<godbyk> I'm not sure.
<godbyk> The stuff I've written defaults to the English version and uses the translated version only if it exists.
<jcisio> I parse the po file, if a string is not translated, it is: msgid "bla bla in English", msgstr "";
<jcisio> I parse the .po file directly, without gettext or st likes this
<jcisio> so I don't know how to fallback to English version
<godbyk> Just use the msgid text instead of the msgstr text if the msgstr text is empty.
<godbyk> (I'd have to see your code to help more, I think.)
<jcisio> ok let me finish it first
<godbyk> sure
<jcisio> done
<jcisio> godbyk: may I have your email ;)
<godbyk> jcisio: sure: kevin@ubuntu-manual.org
<jcisio> sent
<jcisio> question: in style-guide.pdf p13, in formatting commands, which one should be translated?
<godbyk> jcisio: Can you be more specific?
<godbyk> The red text is the stuff that should be translated.
<godbyk> The black text should be left as-is.
<jcisio> I meant automatically
<godbyk> Oh, with your script, you mean?
<jcisio> for example \textbf{bold text} I don't think I want to search for an automatic translation of this
<godbyk> Right.
<godbyk> Probably the application names and GUI elements.
<godbyk> GUI elements would be menu, button, checkbox, tab, dropdown, window, textfield.
<jcisio> a hiccup: there is \textit and \emph also!
<godbyk> They have almost the same effect in that they italicize the text.
<godbyk> The difference is that \emph inside of another \emph will set the text in roman.
<godbyk> \textbf and \textit shouldn't really be used much at all in the manual.
<jcisio> ok
<popey> 16:44:30 <+sabdfl> what a great project
<godbyk> popey: what's a great project?
<popey> u-m
<godbyk> cool
<popey> 16:44:53 <+sabdfl> the key thing for me will be to see how they keep up with our pace of iterations
<popey> 16:44:58 <+sabdfl> but i think they will, just fine
<popey> 16:45:02 <+sabdfl> they have a lot of energy
<popey> 16:45:15 <+sabdfl> and i'm very impressed with their work
<popey> 16:45:29 <+sabdfl> if they have integration ideas, UDS would be the right place to pitch them
<godbyk> I'm hoping we can keep the energy levels up.
<popey> someone asked about u-m in the "ask mark" session now on
<godbyk> We have quite a few big plans that we're going to discuss during our Thursday meeting.
<jcisio> test it against the German build (100% completed), has 474 untranslated title
<jcisio> ;)
<dutchie> we have some ludicrously big ideas
<dutchie> humphreybc is off his trolley with ambition
<jcisio> which troll dutchie ?
<dutchie> jcisio: sorry, it's a figure of speech
<dutchie> it means he's mad
<jcisio> ok :)
<dutchie> (in a good way though)
<thorwil> lun4tic: Schutzwall for Firewall? what's next, Internet Browser -> Weltnetzseitenbetrachtungsprogramm? ;)
<lun4tic> thorwil: wasn't my idea with "Schutzwall" ^^
<lun4tic> everytime i read "Schutzwall" i think of real walls but never of firewalls ^^
<jcisio> lun4tic: you work on the german translation?
<Custard> Wait
<lun4tic> like "Antifaschistischer Schutzwall" (nickname of the GDR regime for the berlin wall) or the Limes of the roman empire or maybe the Atlantic wall of the nazi regime... we had so many borders in history in germany and nearby countrys that we never think of computers wenn hearing the word "Schutzwall" *g*
<lun4tic> jcisio: since today, yes ^^
<Custard> ignore that..
<jcisio> lun4tic: so I have something that you might want to check ;)
<lun4tic> jcisio: tell me
<c7p> godbyk ... i need your lights, i type the  make ubuntu-manual-el.pdf    command and i get the following message "make: *** No rule to make target `ubuntu-manual-el.pdf'.  Stop. :
<jcisio> http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/428418/
<jcisio> something in the current translation
<godbyk> c7p: That is strange. It's working here.
<godbyk> c7p: Do you have a po/el.po file?
<c7p> yes
<godbyk> c7p: What does 'make ubuntu-manual-el.tex' say?
<lun4tic> jcisio: what specifically?
<lun4tic> looks ok so far
<lun4tic> but shut down shouldn't be translated as "shit down" ^^
<c7p> godbyk: make: *** No rule to make target `ubuntu-manual-el.tex'.  Stop.
<godbyk> Well, that's odd.
<c7p> :/
<jcisio> all strings in german is translated, but some menu text have not been yet, that does it!
<godbyk> c7p: what'd 'make -d ubuntu-manual-el.pdf' say?
<lun4tic> jcisio: i know i think (like me before i knew it) many translators think that "\button{Restart Now}" is somehow a variable that must not be changed
<lun4tic> but it isn't ^^
<lun4tic> it's just a formatting info for "Restart Now" ^^
<jcisio> exactly
<c7p> godbyk: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/428424/
<lun4tic> and also because of that issue many texts are translated very directly
<lun4tic> so they sound strange somehow
<godbyk> c7p: I think you may be in the wrong directory.
<godbyk> c7p: Do you have a file named 'Makefile' in the current directory?
<c7p> im on pkgs
<godbyk> c7p: Ah!  Go up a directory (cd ..) and run 'make ubuntu-manual-el.pdf' from there.
<c7p> lol
<c7p> ok
<c7p> godbyk:http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/428428/
<godbyk> Other people have been having that issue too, and I'm not sure why.
<godbyk> dutchie: Are you around?
<godbyk> dutchie's our local translations expert.  he's the only one who can get po4a to do his bidding.
<jcisio> c7p try a 'touch ubuntu-manual-el.tex' first
<jcisio> then make as normally
<c7p> godbyk, thats the line 229 http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/428430/
<c7p> jcisio i will try it
<godbyk> yeah, but the command line for po4a-translate looks fine.
<godbyk> it's the same command we've been using for eons.
<jcisio> ok c7p then a 'make clean' then a normal make
<godbyk> running 'make clean' would remove any files the first 'make' created.
<jcisio> but that works godbyk ;)
<godbyk> weird.
<godbyk> okay.
<godbyk> whatever works, I s'pose. :)
<godbyk> I'm gonna head to bed.  I'll see you guys later.
<jcisio> where're you godbyk ?
<godbyk> If you figure out the po4a thing, leave a message here (or email me) and let me know.
<godbyk> I'm in the central US, but I'm on a crazy sleep schedule right now.
<godbyk> I'm trying to push it back to a normal schedule.
<jcisio> ok godbyk
<godbyk> So it's noon where I am, and I'm just now going to sleep.
<godbyk> Crazy, I know. :)
<godbyk> If you guys run into more snags, feel free to email me or leaves messages here and I'll take a look when I wake up.
<godbyk> See ya!
<jcisio> c7p: let me know if it works, I have some other idea, too :) lol
<c7p> cya godbyk
<c7p> jcisio: it work ... but partly
<jcisio> which part does not?
<c7p> from 46 page till end
<lun4tic> http://screenshots.ubuntu-manual.org/ why is quickshot complaining about timestamps/timezones?
<lun4tic> or maybe it's the website don't know
<jcisio> I didn't this problem, may I have the log?
<jcisio> lun4tic: that's website problem (compatible with PHP 5.1+)
<lun4tic> aha ok.
<lun4tic> so not such a big issue ^^
<jcisio> not at all
<lun4tic> the biggest part of texlive is the language support isn't it?
<lun4tic> i left out all but german and english and hope that it doesn't have to download >2GB *g
<jcisio> about 1 GB I think
<jcisio> remove all language support and all document can save you something around that
<dutchie> uhoh
<jcisio> just check the one you need
<c7p> jcisio http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/428435/
<dutchie> i can't always make po4a do my bidding :(
<dutchie> it seems to just be temperamental
<jcisio> c7p check your translation for LaTeX syntax, I'm afraid
<c7p> on pot file ?
<jcisio> el.po, but it's difficult :(
<jcisio> run make again, Ctrl-C to have your ubuntu-manual-el.tex not deleted, then debug on that file could be easier
<jcisio> I can see that there's a wrong \marginnote command
<c7p> jcisio, check the full log http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/428436/
<jcisio> this time there's only 6 pages?
<jcisio> do you have some knowledge about LaTeX? If not it is not easy
<jcisio> ah well, dutchie is here
<c7p> no latex skills :P
<jcisio> ok I've just had an idea
<jcisio> look at your pdf, see the text where it is wrong (the last text)
<jcisio> check the respective text in el.po to see if the syntax is correct
<dutchie> i'm not here for much longer
<dutchie> in fact, i'm going now
<jcisio> like if there is a { there should be a } in the same msgstr
<c7p> from what i see there is no syntax violation
<c7p> g2g for now, i will back in 2 hours
<c7p> ty jcisio
<jcisio> c7p: in that case it's not easy to help, well I have to go home now, too :)
<ubuntujenkins> evening all o/
<dutchie> hi ubuntujenkins
<dutchie> suggestion: put quickshotdevs somewhere it can run all the time ;)
<ubuntujenkins> dutchie: I know the only place it can go is my laptop :( have you seen the photos of the book
<dutchie> i have ordered one
<dutchie> i can find out what it looks like in 3-5 days :)
<ubuntujenkins> I am the first person in the team to have one :P
<ubuntujenkins> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5012868/manualimages.zip is the pictures i took in a rush earlier
<ubuntujenkins> O and there were meerkats at beavers tonight \o/
<ubuntujenkins> so cool
<ubuntujenkins> are you awake godbyk ?
<ubuntujenkins> !seen godbyk
<manualbot> I have no seen command
<dutchie> 18:21:21 < godbyk> If you guys run into more snags, feel free to email me or leaves messages here and I'll take a look when I  wake up.
<ubuntujenkins> thanks I would ask quickshotdevs but he hasn't been on
<dutchie> +gender
<quickshotdevs> Factoid 'gender' not found
<dutchie> hmm
<dutchie> !gender
<manualbot> yes, I can confirm I am a female bot :)
<dutchie> all bots are female :)
<ubuntujenkins> quickshotdevs: has not made its mind up :P
<quickshotdevs> ubuntujenkins: Error: "has" is not a valid command.
<quickshotdevs> ubuntujenkins: Error: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :)
<c7p> hello
<c7p> can anyone help me with the manual compilation ?
<dutchie> if it's po4a screwing up, afraid not
<c7p> what is that po4a file ?
<dutchie> don't worry about it if it's not a problem
<ubuntujenkins> c7p: what are you tring to do?
<ubuntujenkins> what command and what the error? I will do my best
<c7p> i'm trying to compile the greek manual
<ubuntujenkins> can you past bin the error please
<ubuntujenkins> !paste
<manualbot> For posting multi-line texts into the channel, please use http://paste.ubuntu.com | To post !screenshots use http://tinyurl.com/imagebin | !pastebinit to paste directly from command line | Make sure you give us the URL for your paste - see also the channel topic.
<c7p> sure
<ubuntujenkins> thnaks
<dutchie> btw, has everyone seen http://shanefagan.com/?p=932
<ubuntujenkins> yep
<jcisio> hmm godbyk the script doesn't work as expected, it replaces all instead of only things in msgstr, my mistake
<jcisio> anyway, I put it here http://github.com/jcisio/po4locale
<ubuntujenkins> jcisio: I don't think godbyk is awake at the moment
<jcisio> well he always have long siesta
<c7p> that's the log http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/428550/
<ubuntujenkins> can you paste the po file please c7p
<ubuntujenkins> your missing a } some where
<c7p> as you wish :)
<ubuntujenkins> thanks
<jcisio> so c7p you haven't found the wrong marginnote ;)
<c7p> no
<c7p> check it http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/428552/
<ubuntujenkins> found it
<c7p> line?
<ubuntujenkins> c7p: add it to the end of line 5066 at the end of "Î´Î¹ÎºÏÏÏÏÎ·Ï} Î±ÏÏ ÏÎ¿ Î±Î½Î±Î´ÏÏÎ¼ÎµÎ½Î¿ Î¼ÎµÎ½Î¿Ï." so it reads "Î´Î¹ÎºÏÏÏÏÎ·Ï} Î±ÏÏ ÏÎ¿ Î±Î½Î±Î´ÏÏÎ¼ÎµÎ½Î¿ Î¼ÎµÎ½Î¿Ï.}"
<c7p> aha
<ubuntujenkins> hopefully that fixes it
<jcisio> ubuntujenkins: how could you find that quickly?
<c7p> he is the superman :P
<ubuntujenkins> jcisio: I have solved a few of those problems before with the error and the po its easy. good practice
<jcisio> but there are dozens of thousands of lines!
<c7p> now there must be another error
<ubuntujenkins> paste it and i will have a look
<c7p> the message ends with http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/428558/
<brianherman> phil?
<c7p> the prob is on advanced{ÎÎºÏÎ¼Î·, Î¼ÏÎ¿ÏÎµÎ¯ÏÎµ
<c7p> ?
<ubuntujenkins> brianherman: whos phil? I am not aware of a phil
<jcisio> line 7323 c7p
<brianherman> https://help.ubuntu.com/libs/C/contributors.html
<jcisio> \\advanced{ÎÎºÏÎ¼Î·, Î¼ÏÎ¿ÏÎµÎ¯ÏÎµ Î½Î± ÏÎ±ÏÎ®ÏÎµÏÎµ \\keystroke{Ctrl+B} Î³Î¹Î± Î½Î± ÎµÎ¼ÏÎ±Î½Î¯ÏÎµÏÎµ
<c7p> ok thats what i meant, ty
<ubuntujenkins> brianherman: you want #ubuntu-doc for phil
<brianherman> oops
<brianherman> sorry
<brianherman> thanks
<jcisio> hmm my pastebin displays the wrong line
<ubuntujenkins> don't worry
<jcisio> \advanced is easy, there're only a few, but with \marginnote, I really can't understand!!!!!
<ubuntujenkins> c7p: you are missing one from line 7543 "\\advanced{ÎÎºÏÎ¼Î·, Î¼ÏÎ¿ÏÎµÎ¯ÏÎµ Î½Î± ÏÎ±ÏÎ®ÏÎµÏÎµ \\keystroke{Ctrl+B} Î³Î¹Î± Î½Î± ÎµÎ¼ÏÎ±Î½Î¯ÏÎµÏÎµ "
<ubuntujenkins> "ÏÎ¿ÏÏ ÏÎµÎ»Î¹Î´Î¿Î´ÎµÎ¯ÎºÏÎµÏ ÏÎµ Î¼Î¹Î± ÏÎ»ÎµÏÏÎ¹ÎºÎ® ÏÏÎ®Î»Î·, ÏÏÎ± Î±ÏÎ¹ÏÏÎµÏÎ¬ ÏÎ¿Ï ÏÎ±ÏÎ±Î¸ÏÏÎ¿Ï ÏÎ¿Ï "
<ubuntujenkins> "ÏÎµÏÎ¹Î·Î³Î·ÏÎ® Î¹ÏÏÎ¿Ï. ÎÎ¹Î± Î½Î± ÎºÏÏÏÎµÏÎµ ÏÎ·Î½ ÏÎ»ÎµÏÏÎ¹ÎºÎ® ÏÏÎ®Î»Î·, Î¾Î±Î½Î±ÏÎ±ÏÎ®ÏÏÎµ \\"
<ubuntujenkins> "keystroke{Ctrl+B}"
<ubuntujenkins> as i can't understand what it says I con't know where to put it
<c7p> i have corrected now i'm trying to find another wrong string
<ubuntujenkins> please fix these in the launchpad translations
<c7p> that's what i'm doing right now :d
<jcisio> those are #1 error in LaTeX, it's nice if there is a tool to squad them automatically
<ubuntujenkins> thanks
<ubuntujenkins> the error usually happens when they get missed off by mistake in launchpad. easily done to be honest
<c7p> yeah
<c7p> although we have looked these translations for a second time, still we haven't found those misprints
<ubuntujenkins> how are we doing c7p
<c7p> good
<c7p> i am correcting the wrong strings on lp and on po file
<ubuntujenkins> cool, let us know if you hit any problems
<c7p> ok ;) thx
<c7p> i 've to say that the marginote command is very sneaky
<ubuntujenkins> hehe
 * ubuntujenkins another ten hours to wait till launchpad builds the package i have added
<c7p> the string 1263 is bugged https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/lucid-e1/+pots/ubuntu-manual/el/1263/+translate
<ubuntujenkins> really I can't spot it
<ubuntujenkins> no there are seven { and six }
<c7p> holy sh$% i edited my po by mistake :O
<c7p> there is no bug ... i need some sleep
<ubuntujenkins> ok maybe i am counting wrong
<c7p> no i was wrong
 * ubuntujenkins looks again
<ubuntujenkins> I am sure the translation you just added looks ok to me. I think i am getting tired
<c7p> the lattest  translation i entered is ok
<ubuntujenkins> good, I am getting confused
<c7p> yeah me too, it is really a tiring work
<ubuntujenkins> I have just had a long day and another tomorrow
<c7p> oh yes tomorrow will be a long day
<c7p> now i have problem with the comment (type) strings ... pff
<c7p> i go to bed
<ubuntujenkins> night c7p
<c7p> ty ubuntujenkins and jcisio for your help
<c7p> night all
<ubuntujenkins> night all 0/
#ubuntu-manual 2010-05-06
<epkugelmass> where is the appropriate place to file a bug for a kernel/Xorg segfault?
<lun4tic> hallo again... *sing*
<lun4tic> XD
<lun4tic> man i hate 24h disconnections
<lun4tic> someone still awake?
<ubuntujenkins> epkugelmass: I suggest you ask in #ubuntu i am not sure
<epkugelmass> thanks ubuntujenkins. i did get some help.
<ubuntujenkins> lun4tic: whats your question i will try and solve it
<lun4tic> no question just checking if someone is there ^^
<ubuntujenkins> ok I am off to bed godbyk will be up soon hopefully night all
<lun4tic> n8
<epkugelmass> godbyk, does the install-pkgs.sh work on lucid?
<epkugelmass> i have texlive installed, but the script says i don't
 * ubuntujenkins can't sleep
<ubuntujenkins> epkugelmass: how did you install texlive
<epkugelmass> aptitude install texlive-full
<ubuntujenkins> thats where you are going wrong, the packages don't work. You have to install it by following the instructions at the end of http://ubuntu-manual.org/getinvolved/authors
<ubuntujenkins> if you follow that it should work fine :)
<epkugelmass> but it's texlive 2009...what's the problem? I would rather stick to the package system than go off installing random things
<ubuntujenkins> epkugelmass: basically the packages are too old and there is stuff missing. I am working on the stuff to fix it but that will not be ready for a couple of weeks.
<epkugelmass> ubuntujenkins, the website says "The Ubuntu Manual requires TeX Live 2009. The version of TeX Live in the Ubuntu 9.10 repositories is 2007. In Lucid, there are packages for TeX Live 2009."
<ubuntujenkins> epkugelmass: thats a typo on the website
<epkugelmass> alright
<epkugelmass> thanks
 * ubuntujenkins files a nug
<ubuntujenkins> no problem
<ubuntujenkins> *bug
 * ubuntujenkins goes to bed third time lucky hopefully
<ubuntujenkins> wish i could get to sleep
<ubuntujenkins> we have over 60000 downloads
<IlyaHaykinson> godbyk, hi
<godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: hey.
<IlyaHaykinson> so, grr, new machine here, and for some reason it decided to let me install tex, but install-pkgs script didn't detect it
<godbyk> did you have it create the symlinks during install?
<IlyaHaykinson> now i re-ran the tex installation script, and it's redownloading everything (on my slower home connection)
<IlyaHaykinson> ah. ok, i figured that may have been my mistake.
<IlyaHaykinson> i am doing it now.
<godbyk> ok
<IlyaHaykinson> in the new re-download.
<godbyk> you can create them after the fact; it's just a bit more difficult.
<IlyaHaykinson> is there a shortcut (i.e. i could cancel the current download and symlink manually)?
<godbyk> If everything's been installed already, then yeah.
<godbyk> apt-get install perl-tk
<godbyk> then run 'tlmgr --gui'
<godbyk> you will have to provide the full path to tlmgr
<godbyk> on my machine, the non-symlinked file is /usr/local/texlive/2009/texmf/scripts/texlive/tlmgr.pl
<godbyk> oh, you'll need to run tlmgr using sudo, too.
 * godbyk should set up yet another bot to handle tex-related questions. 
 * godbyk keeps forgetting all the niggling details when he doesn't have to do this too often.
<IlyaHaykinson> sweet, this helped. thank you.
<godbyk> did you get the symlinks created okay?
<IlyaHaykinson> yup. all good.
<godbyk> 'kay. cool
 * IlyaHaykinson sent an email to the technical writers mailing list, asking about tips about user research and audience analysis
<godbyk> there's a technical writers mailing list?
<IlyaHaykinson> nod
<IlyaHaykinson> http://www.techwr-l.com/
<godbyk> cool
<IlyaHaykinson> ok, gnite. tty tomorrow at the meeting.
<godbyk> g'night!
<ubuntujenkins> morning o/
<godbyk> morning, ubuntujenkins
<jcisio> hello
<godbyk> Hey, jcisio.
<jcisio> godbyk, I tried compile several times, but get no index or glossaries
<godbyk> I know.
<godbyk> It's a problem I'm still trying to solve.
<jcisio> do you have any input?
<godbyk> Could you rephrase the question? :)
<jcisio> Any idea why it doesn't work?
<godbyk> It has to do with the makeglossaries and xindy programs.
<godbyk> (Well, makeglossaries calls xindy, too, so it's mostly xindy, I think.)
<jcisio> I was trying to add the 4th xelatex continously in Makefile, obviously it didn't work
<jcisio> what does xindy do godbyk ?
<godbyk> xindy is the program that generates the index and glossary.  (mostly handles sorting of entries.)
<jcisio> I try compile ubuntu-manual-vi.tex myself without success
<godbyk> I suspect the issue is with setting the appropriate language (and sorting system), but I'm not sure yet.
<godbyk> I'll be with you in about 15 minutes.
<godbyk> (watching the end of a video)
<jcisio> ok
<jcisio> time to go to school, g9 godbyk_
<ubuntujenkins> see you all later
<lun4tic> hi, is there an "update" command for the bzr repo?
<lun4tic> so that i don't have to download the whole thing again
<lun4tic> just the changes
<hemanth> lun4tic, bzr pull
<lun4tic> hemanth: thx
<hemanth> lun4tic, np
<lun4tic> "po4a::tex: Kann nicht von einer Datei lesen, ohne einen Dateinamen zu haben" hm... whats wrong? it says "cant read from file without having the filename"
<lun4tic> trying to "make ubuntu-manual-de.pdf"
<lun4tic> texlive 2009 on lucid
<godbyk> I'm not sure.
<godbyk> I don't get that error on mine.
<lun4tic> " at /usr/bin/po4a-translate line 229"
<lun4tic> the line after the error
<lun4tic> i use the ubuntu packages
<lun4tic> because i had them allready installed and the ubuntu-manual website says lucid has the texlive 2009 allready
<godbyk> lun4tic: Ah, well, those the texlive packages in ubuntu don't work (regardless of what the website may suggest).
<godbyk> lun4tic: but the error is coming from po4a-translate which is in the po4a package (which is what I'm using)
<ubuntujenkins> hello
<lun4tic> hm.. it complains about ccicons.sty
<lun4tic> is there a package for that allready?
<lun4tic> google cant find any package that has this file
<ubuntujenkins> lun4tic: the script in the pkgs folder of the branch installs it for you
<lun4tic> that script doesn't recognize my texlive 2009 packages -.-
<godbyk> lun4tic: you can't use the texlive packages from ubuntu. you MUST install them from upstream.
<lun4tic> Checking TeX Live version...Status: install ok installed
<lun4tic> No version of TeX Live was detected.
<lun4tic> :(
<ubuntujenkins> +1 to godbyk
<lun4tic> why? if it is the same system
<godbyk> It's not.
<godbyk> The lucid packages are too old
<lun4tic> -.-
<godbyk> and they're missing things we require (like ccicons)
<lun4tic> so i guess i'll stick to the "beta" pdf... ^^
<lun4tic> building stuff with having to download >2gig on this "high speed" line is not so funny...
<lun4tic> can someone build me the current german version and mail it to me?
<godbyk> lun4tic: I just fixed up the german version a couple hours ago (some bad tex-related bugs in the translations).
<godbyk> let me build the pdf and upload it for ya.
<godbyk> gimme a few minutes.
<lun4tic> are the screenshots in the pdf then?
<godbyk> they will be, I think.
<lun4tic> i know some people who could also read it through (no geeks or technicians so they're good "gunea pigs" ... ;-) ) but they keep asking about missing pictures ^^
<lun4tic> guinea*
<godbyk> lun4tic: Can you look over the suggested translations I made and approve them if I haven't mucked something up?
<godbyk> Then I can download the latest translations so the german doc will compile successfully.
<lun4tic> hm.. so if it says "plain text" all of the "commands" are just formatting info right?
<godbyk> Sometimes they're formatting info and sometimes they do more than that.
<ubuntujenkins> hmm the package clisp is causing me a problem xindy depends on it but clisp will not install properly
<c7p> godbyk thank you for the corrections on the greek translation
<godbyk> c7p: You're welcome. They can be difficult to track down sometimes.
<godbyk> c7p: Please read through the translations I modified to make sure I didn't screw anything up along the way.
<c7p> godbyk: yes
<jcisio> when I work on Launchpad, there're suggestions that I don't know where do they come from, like this
<lun4tic> godbyk: if the suggestion and the current translation is exactly the same but the suggestion is yours should i confirm yours because of some corrections you've made?
<jcisio> Suggestions ubuntu-manual in Ubuntu Manual lucid-e1 by Kevin Godby  2 hours ago
<jcisio> ah someone is asking the same question
<godbyk> lun4tic: As long as I haven't screwed up the language itself, it should be fine. I only touch the translations when I'm trying to fix bugs in the LaTeX coding.
<godbyk> jcisio: I went through a couple languages earlier to fix some bugs that were preventing the PDF from compiling.
<lun4tic> i found some mistakes
<lun4tic> but could be somebody who changed the sentence while he was building the sentence in his mind... ^^
<lun4tic> a word to much and stuff like that
 * ubuntujenkins is back to lectures talk later
<jcisio> ah yes, ok thanks
<lun4tic> "\glspl{applet}" <-- what about plurals in that case?
<lun4tic> even in the english version there should normally be "applets"
<godbyk> lun4tic: leave that as is, but in the \newglossaryentry for 'applet', add a 'plural={applets}'
<lun4tic> cause the sentence is talking about applets that can be put in panels
<godbyk> the 'pl' part tells latex to use the plural form.
<lun4tic> ok
<godbyk> So in the English version, \gls{applet} = applet, and \glspl{applet} = applets.
<lun4tic> maybe it is allready plural then
<lun4tic> but i didn't know glspl
<lun4tic> i don't have a built pdf to verify
<godbyk> right.
<lun4tic> so i'm just guessing ^^
<jcisio> OMG, forgot about the meeting at 22h local time, I have an appointment at 20h15 for Iron Man 2!!!
<godbyk> I'd say your first meeting takes priority, jcisio. ;-)
<jcisio> well, film length: 124min, should be 30 min late though
<jcisio> godbyk: normally the duration of the meeting is how long?
<godbyk> We try to stay inside of an hour, but almost always fail.
<godbyk> This meeting is covering a lot of ground, too, so we'll probably be around for a while.
<jcisio> ok thanks, so I'll try to be ontime, it's 3am in Vietnam, so I don't think there are other translator in my language
<c7p> i have got a problem with the compilation of the manual
<c7p> http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/428938/
<godbyk> c7p: I think I fixed a bunch of those in the translations a few hours ago, but there may still be a couple I missed.
<jcisio> I sometimes have that, too
<godbyk> c7p: If you can review the translation changes I made and approve them, I'll update the .po files in the repository and we can try recompiling it.
<c7p> also there are no screenshots on the pdf
<jcisio> the "LaTeX Warning: Label(s) may have changed. Rerun to get cross-references right." message, sometimes I must delete the output pdf and rerun make command
<godbyk> c7p: The screenshots only get added to the PDF after all the screenshots for that language have been taken.
<godbyk> http://screenshots.ubuntu-manual.org/
<godbyk> You can see the progress of screenshots at that site.
<c7p> el	Progress: 100%
<c7p> we have uploaded all the screenshots :/
<godbyk> c7p: You're right. It looks like those screenshots are in the repository already.
<godbyk> c7p: So they'll show up automatically when I can successfully compile the PDF.
<c7p> godbyk: ok :)
<humphreybc> all go in here!
<vish> humphreybc: for elementary , we have several members still waiting in the queue ;)
<vish> oops! late line :/
<vish> humphreybc: heh , had typed that when we were talking about the members and seem to have forgotten :/
<godbyk> heh. nice.
<godbyk> we should hold further ayatana-ux discussion in #ayatana, probably.
<humphreybc> vish: huh what who now?
<humphreybc> godbyk, jar
<vish> humphreybc: when we were talking about rejecting memebers to ayatana UX team
<humphreybc> ohh right
<humphreybc> yeah
<humphreybc> I felt real bad
<vish> godbyk: i had suggested that to mpt, but i think -meeting sounds more official
<godbyk> oh, I meant right now if we wanted to continue the discussion or something.
<vish> ah..
<godbyk> *someone* may as well use it, right? :)
<humphreybc> nothing to talk about?
<humphreybc> we don't have any plans or anything
<humphreybc> or any contributors or time to make much happen
<vish> zilch!
<godbyk> I feel so useless. :)
<humphreybc> yeah
<humphreybc> No doubt mpt, vish and I will talk about it over a beer at UDS.
<humphreybc> the others can remote participate with a virtual beer in Runescape or something
<vish> humphreybc: are you old enough to have beer? ;p
<humphreybc> vish: I am insulted! Yes, yes I am. I'm 19 :)
<humphreybc> I've had many beers
<humphreybc> often too many
 * vish thought the drinking age is 21 in NZ..
<humphreybc> nah it's 18 here
<godbyk> it's 21 in the US
<humphreybc> 18 in belgium too
<humphreybc> vish: how old are you?
<vish> godbyk: yea , i get those two confused
<vish> humphreybc: heh , pretty old ;)  28
 * godbyk is older!
<humphreybc> 28! you're practically a pensioner
<vish> godbyk: thanks that makes me feel better ;)
<godbyk> I'm 31.
<c7p> I think I'm the smallest here :P
<humphreybc> godbyk's OLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLD
<nisshh> 18
<nisshh> humphreybc: lol
<jcisio> I thought that I was the oldest
<humphreybc> nisshh is YOUUUUUUUUUUUUUUNG
<humphreybc> nah pretty sure popey claims that in this channel
<humphreybc> :P
<nisshh> lol, humphreybc your only 19 :)
<humphreybc> <3 you popey
<nisshh> or 18 i cant remeber
<popey> 38
<popey> Ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooold
<humphreybc> I be 20 in a month. I feel old.
 * godbyk breathes a sign of relief.
<vish> \o/
<godbyk> :-P
<humphreybc> popey's gonna be middle aged soon
<humphreybc> how daunting
<humphreybc> :P
 * humphreybc feels like he's going to get a kick from popey at UDS
<c7p> humphreybc:lol
<popey> nahhh
<vish> popey: lets do it pls ;)
<popey> I'm susprisingly nice in person.
<godbyk> humphreybc: You're young and spry -- you can probably outrun him.
<popey> i dont run
<popey> i throw things
<humphreybc> popey: "I'm surprisingly nice in person." <<< I LOVE this quote.
<c7p> haha
<humphreybc> In fact, I'm going to tweet it now, I love it so much.
<godbyk> Ooh, popey has missile projectiles. Nevermind. :)
<nisshh> hehe
 * humphreybc is also good at ducking
<nisshh> meh!
 * humphreybc really should go to bed
<humphreybc> UMP meeting in like, 6 and a half hours
<humphreybc> grr!
 * nisshh is staying up till 4am!
<c7p> godbyk: from what i see on the pdf the chaplink generates sth like   " Chapter î¡: ÎÎ¬Î¸ÎµÏÎµ
<c7p> ÏÎµÏÎ¹ÏÏÏÏÎµÏÎ±. ", so the 'Chapter' isn't translated and also the "Figure" near screenshots isn't translated too. what can we do about it ?
<godbyk> c7p: Let me look into it for you.
<popey> tis funny, many people have a completely different character when they get to uds humphreybc  :)
<humphreybc> heh
<humphreybc> let me know if I do and I'll fix it
<humphreybc> :P
<godbyk> c7p: String 993 appears to have an extra closing brace }.
<c7p> i will check it
<godbyk> I'm fixing a couple other strings, too.
<c7p> If i can help you tell me how
<nisshh> everyone: can anyone think of anything that needs to be setup to use bzr apart from installing bzr, checking for ssh key and telling bzr who you are?
<nisshh> and also downloading the branch off of lp
<godbyk> launchpad-login?
<nisshh> godbyk: genius!
<godbyk> someone mentioned that we'd left that step out of the instructions the other day.
<nisshh> godbyk: right, ill put that in now
<godbyk> 'kay.
<c7p> also the latex installation isn't very comprehensive, without your help I don't know if would ever install these packages
<godbyk> c7p: What snags did you hit during the latex installation?
<godbyk> We should improve those instructions if we can, then.
<c7p> godbyk: it was a bit weird cause it was the first time that installed a program from a terminal window like that
<godbyk> yeah, their installer script is pretty much unlike anything else you'll ever come across.
<godbyk> I should see if there's a way I can preconfigure the options for people.
<jcisio> the texlive installer works with -gui, it seems
<nisshh> does anyone want to go over my script before the meeting? would be great if you could!
<godbyk> jcisio: it can, yeah.
<godbyk> nisshh: what script?
<godbyk> what meeting?
<godbyk> what's happening?
 * godbyk is so confused! :)
<nisshh> godbyk: lol!
<nisshh> Showing your age!
<godbyk> heh
<godbyk> trying to fix translations in 2-3 languages at once causes my brain to smoke.
<nisshh> meh, no kidding!
 * nisshh is watching 4 movies in a row till the meeting, ping him if you need him!
<godbyk> lun4tic: Are you still around?
<lun4tic> godbyk: yes
<godbyk> Could you check on the strings in the german translation that still require approval?
<godbyk> A couple that I did are latex-related bug fixes.
<godbyk> but one of those had multiple suggestions, so I wasn't sure which to use.
<godbyk> in any case, there was just a comma missing before the description= bit.
 * popey switches to this channel before ops come along and tell us off for being in -meeting
<godbyk> no doubt.
<vish> popey: already tried that , but the topic in -meeting attracted folks from everywhere ;)
 * humphreybc always gets told off on IRC.
<vish> humphreybc: what happened to that -party kick ?
<humphreybc> vish: I got banned
<vish> lol!
<humphreybc> sad, huh
<popey> not surprising really
<humphreybc> :D
<godbyk> humphreybc is no longer allowed at the release parties. :)
<humphreybc> pretty much
<popey> yeah you will
<popey> its not permanent
<humphreybc> popey: in all the carnage, I guess not
<popey> remember they get a lot of idiots saying stupid things in there
 * humphreybc was just trying to take the load off the servers. *sniff*
<popey> http://popey.com/blog/2008/04/23/Things_Not_To_Say/
<humphreybc> answer for everything :P
<popey> people say stupid stuff in the party channel and don't appreciate the consequences of their actions
<popey> we get a lot of people posting urls which doesnt help at all
<popey> it actually hurts the release
<humphreybc> ya
<humphreybc> I AM GOING TO BED
<humphreybc> night!
<popey> OKAY!
<godbyk> He better be back in 2.5 hours for the ubuntu manual meeting!
<jcisio> oh good
<jcisio> I calculated wrong, minus 2h instead of plus 2h
<jcisio> but not, meeting is in 5.5h
<godbyk> ah, right.
<godbyk> too many meetings today in too many time zones.
<godbyk> the earlier meeting I attended was at 12 UTC, so that's why 12 was stuck in my head (which is 2.5 hours from now).
<jcisio> ok
<godbyk> though if anyone wants to meet with me in 2.5 hours to keep me awake, I'm okay with that. :)
<jcisio> If I have a mass search/replace in po/vi.po, should I push it in bzr?
<godbyk> jcisio: Ooh.. that's a question for dutchie.
<godbyk> I do'nt know if launchpad is set to read in the po files right now.
<godbyk> lemme look.
<godbyk> well, it says it'll read the pot and po files (I think).
<godbyk> I'd make a small change to the po file and upload it to the branch, then check to make sure it shows up in the translations in launchpad.
<nisshh> godbyk: ill be up until the meeting, ill keep you company!
<godbyk> if that works, then you can try your bigger change.
<godbyk> nisshh: \o/
 * nisshh needs sustenance to stay up that long though!
<jcisio> ok I'll try the small change
<jcisio> After some modification, now I can't find any error in my script :D
<godbyk> I ran the build script and have uploaded the latest PDFs and log files to http://builds.ubuntu-manual.org/.
<nisshh> godbyk: what is the name of the branch on launchpad we are using for dev now? how the hell is everything arranged?
<godbyk> nisshh: Heh, right.
<godbyk> nisshh: So lucid-e1 is where the translators are working. No one else gets to touch it.
 * nisshh is confused as shit!
<nisshh> right
<godbyk> lucid-e2 is where new development for the second edition will take place.
<godbyk> Don't start quite yet, though
<nisshh> yep
<nisshh> no, id just like to know
<nisshh> so i dont screw anything up
<godbyk> as I'm going to probably wipe that branch, create a new one in its place, and then copy over the files we want.
<nisshh> the e2 branch?
<godbyk> (Otherwise we have to keep pulling the full history of the branches which is headed toward 200 MB when we really only want < 1 MB of tex files)
<nisshh> yea
<nisshh> it was becoming a pain
<godbyk> Then there's the maverick branch (which will probably get the same treatment as lucid-e2). it'll contain our work for the maverick edition.
<nisshh> ok cool
<godbyk> so translators, thorwil and his title pages, and minor tweaks by me are working on e1.
<nisshh> thats cleared that up for me
<godbyk> everyone else will be working on e2 soon.
<nisshh> yea, i hope to talk to humphreybc about my contributions sometime tonight too
<nisshh> wanna do more
<nisshh> feel like i didnt do a very good job on e1
<godbyk> well, we're hopefully going to redeem ourselves a little bit with e2. fix *all* the bugs and add back in a few of the sections we had to remove because they were unfinished.
<nisshh> yea
<nisshh> but i have got alot better with writing now, i was terrible at first but now i know how it should be and can fit it together nicely.
<ubuntujenkins> evening all
<nisshh> hey
<ubuntujenkins> hello nisshh what are you up to?
<nisshh> waiting for the meeting to start in a few hours
<ubuntujenkins> I hopefully will have my project work done by then
<lun4tic> godbyk: no suggestions left i guess
<daker> hello @all
<daker> hi ubuntujenkins
<ubuntujenkins> hello daker
<Red_HamsterX> Did I miss the meeting?
 * Red_HamsterX un-idles after, like, a week.
<ubuntujenkins> nope later tonight
<Red_HamsterX> Yay.
<dutchie> o/
<ubuntujenkins> we have a few new quickshot members including a bot
<Red_HamsterX> A lot can change in a week, apprently.
<ubuntujenkins> +help
<quickshotdevs> Useage: +<factoid> Examples: +website , +blueprint , +qssource , +involved , +question , +style , +use , +ppa , +quickshot , +code , +launchpad
<ubuntujenkins> I think that is all the factoids on it, when we get new users we have to tell them lots of stuff and its the same each time. also if we need the bug link etc its all there
<Red_HamsterX> That seems useful.
<ubuntujenkins> +bug
<quickshotdevs> You can file a Quickshot bug here https://bugs.launchpad.net/quickshot
<ubuntujenkins> we can add more when we think of more
<Red_HamsterX> Any Easter Eggs to be discovered?
<Red_HamsterX> I dunno why I capitalised that.
<ubuntujenkins> Easter Eggs in what?
<Red_HamsterX> The bot.
<ubuntujenkins> not that i know of its just supybot based
<ubuntujenkins> sorry I haven't made any I will have to think of some
 * ubuntujenkins actually reads the question properly
 * ubuntujenkins no google search now looks like yahoo
<daker> +style
<quickshotdevs> The Quickshot code base tries to follow some conventions  a list of them is here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/quickshot/style .
<ubuntujenkins> hello everyone who is joining us for the meeting o/
<ubuntujenkins> its in half an hour
<semioticrobotic> hi ubuntujenkins
<ubuntujenkins> hello semioticrobotic, hows you?
<semioticrobotic> not too shabby.  yourself?
<ubuntujenkins> good, doing uni work
<semioticrobotic> I'm about to do the same.  Just logged in to stake out a spot.  :)
<semioticrobotic> I'll see you in a half-hour
<ubuntujenkins> see you in half an hout
<ubuntujenkins> *hour
<semioticrobotic> are we in here?
<semioticrobotic> or in the meeting room
<ubuntujenkins> #ubuntu-meeting
<semioticrobotic> gotcha
<ubuntujenkins> thats what the wiki says
<semioticrobotic> thanks
<semioticrobotic> see you there
<daker> ubuntujenkins,
<ubuntujenkins> hello daker
<daker> meet my bot
<ubuntujenkins> can we play in #quickshot?
<daker> oki
<daker> ?q
<daker> ubuntujenkins, you are there ?
<ubuntujenkins> yep with your bot
<nisshh> humphreybc: so is the meeting in here on in -meeting?
<humphreybc> in meeting
<nisshh> right
<thorwil> godbyk: http://cometdemo.lshift.net:8080/greed/aa2be1f2/
<godbyk> thorwil: cool.  not sure if rst has enough markup commands for us as is, though.
<thorwil> godbyk: i just recalled this when Ben said "the translators want to be able to see their works faster" :)
<godbyk> ah
* dutchie changed the topic of #ubuntu-manual to: Ubuntu Manual Project discussion | Lucid Edition 1 released! Go and download/buy it | | Style Guide: http://files.ubuntu-manual.org/style-guide.pdf | Website: http://ubuntu-manual.org | Launchpad: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual | IRC logs: http://irclogs.ubuntu.com | Ubuntu Guidelines: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcGuidelines | Code of Conduct: http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct/
<c7p> hello
<godbyk> Hey, c7p.
<godbyk> We're in #ubuntu-meeting right now if you want to join us.
<c7p> sure
<godbyk> Hey, guys. We're meeting in #ubuntu-meeting if you'd care to join us.
<godbyk> Some new site mockups you can take a look at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/humphreybc/sets/72157623882545941/
<ubuntujenkins> I should have turned the highlighting of the word manualfor that meeting the jumping x-chat icon kept popping up on my project work
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: I was thinking the same thing.
<c7p> hey godbyk do you have some time?
<godbyk> c7p: sure, what's up?
<ubuntujenkins> Red_HamsterX: meet hemanth, he joined us last week and is going to help with the gui/program side
<c7p> i compile the manual successful, although screenshots weren't in place and more importantly some letters on a word are in bold
<ubuntujenkins> hemanth: Red_HamsterX deals with the server stuff
<Red_HamsterX> ubuntujenkins, when I have some of the Quickshot server working, I'll start adding management scripts to PyRC, so it can do fun hardcoded things before we have proper web interface methods.
<Red_HamsterX> Hi, hemanth. You're going to learn to hate my laissez-faire anti-micro-management style.
<godbyk> c7p: For the bold text, are you referring to the headings?
<ubuntujenkins> Red_HamsterX: don't worry i can't attack the gui until after the 15th june
<Red_HamsterX> I like having zero involvement in development, but coming in at the last moment and demanding things be rebuilt according to my dreams.
<Red_HamsterX> (No, not really)
<Red_HamsterX> (I'm just here for help if you need me)
<humphreybc> I was thinking, since we're going to have the capability for videos on our website, could we use Quickshot to record screencasts too?
<ubuntujenkins> Red_HamsterX: we also have Sunk on the team helping with python backend stuff
<c7p> godbyk: see the pdf to understand what I mean
<humphreybc> just by using recordmydesktop
<Red_HamsterX> (I'll be focused on the server side until I'm needed on the client)
<c7p> godbyk: for example on page 7
<Red_HamsterX> Why not just use recordmydesktop directly?
<ubuntujenkins> humphreybc: whats wrong with record mydesktop?
<Red_HamsterX> Building that into Quickshot seems like unnecessary feature creep.
<ubuntujenkins> Red_HamsterX: +1
<godbyk> c7p: are you looking at the pdf on the builds server? or some other pdf?
<Red_HamsterX> High-five!
<godbyk> (just so I'm looking at the same one.)
<humphreybc> ubuntujenkins: nothing, but we'd just need to make it easier for people to submit the videos
<ubuntujenkins> Red_HamsterX: no problem with "(I'll be focused on the server side until I'm needed on the client)"
<c7p> they are the same on the page formatting
<humphreybc> Just an idea. We probably won't have that many videos at first anyway
<Red_HamsterX> So Sunk will be focused on the GTK/Qt/whatever internals and general coding consistency, then?
<humphreybc> So individually uploading them will be fin
<humphreybc> fine*
<ubuntujenkins> humphreybc: I don't think we will make it in this time
<Red_HamsterX> (I like working on that stuff, but more free time's good)
<humphreybc> ubuntujenkins: that's fine. You guys are doing a rockin' job anyway!
<humphreybc> right, i'm off. be back later :)
<godbyk> c7p: okay, if you're referring to the headings, then the problem is that the headings font doesn't have bold greek letters, only bold latin letters at the moment.
<Red_HamsterX> Bye, humphreybc~
<ubuntujenkins> see yu humphreybc
<godbyk> c7p: I'm going to have to find a different font to use for greek headings for now.
<c7p> godbyk: ok :) ty
<jcisio> Droid font, for example ;)
<godbyk> jcisio: the droid fonts don't have nearly the character set support (last I looked) that we need.
<jcisio> maybe, I didn't test in all languages, but they look good in some
<godbyk> we did look at the droid fonts a few months ago and determined that they weren't suitable.
<godbyk> I haven't looked at them lately, though, so some things may have changed.
<godbyk> (I can't remember all the issues now, either, I'd have to check the logs.)
<jcisio> godbyk, the builds on builds.um.org always use old version of translation?
<godbyk> jcisio: those are using the translations that I downloaded earlier today (a few hours ago).
<godbyk> I think the downloaded translations lag slightly behind, but they should be fairly up to date.
<jcisio> I saw the revision date is 29 april
<jcisio> and Vietnamese is 0.7% (actually 23%)
<ChrisWoollard> It was a nice meeting. See you all later. Sleepy time now. Bye
<c7p> bye
<godbyk> jcisio: strange.. maybe my laptop was out of date when I ran the script. I'll pull and run it again.
<jcisio> and index & glossary are always available when build with your laptop ;)
<Red_HamsterX> daker, regarding the new Qs server interface, would it be sufficient for me to give you a simple header/body/footer template to work with for styling?
<Red_HamsterX> Or would you like to have left and right panels in the body, too?
<Red_HamsterX> (I won't actually be doing anything with them. I'd just like to build the general layout first, to make your job as easy as possible while I hack away at the logic)
<c7p> daker could you fix this http://ubuntu-manual.org/downloads/?lang=el
<godbyk> jcisio: it looks like my laptop did have an older version of the repository -- sorry about that! I'm rebuilding them now. (it may take a while)
<jcisio> ok thanks godbyk
<godbyk> the index/glossary issue is usually due to typos in the \newglossaryentry lines in the translations (at least so far, that's been the case).
<daker> back
<daker> Red_HamsterX, can you explain pls ?
<Red_HamsterX> I'm just thinking about how to build the includes structure.
<Red_HamsterX> Standard header (title), body (content), footer (copyright) layout or something where there's a provision for information on the left and right sides of the body.
<Red_HamsterX> Like a persistent navigation system.
<Red_HamsterX> Actually, maybe I'll need to reflect on it a little and decide myself.
<Red_HamsterX> Based on what the user actually needs to do.
<Red_HamsterX> I'll try to keep the CSS simple and the repeated elements abstracted, though.
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk: this  updmap --enable Map ccicons.map command well its not finding the ccicons.map file that is in /usr/share/texmf-texlive/fonts/map/dvips/ccicons any suggestions?
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: run 'sudo texhash /usr/share/texmf-texlive' first
<godbyk> then see if it can find the .map file.
<ubuntujenkins> thanks godbyk that got it
<ubuntujenkins> now i have to make a package do that
<jcisio> godbyk, for the translator, I think we need a one page cheatsheet for things not to be translated
<c7p> there is a file
<jcisio> style-guide is a bit long
<godbyk> We could probably do that.
<godbyk> Most of the translation bugs I see with regard to tex commands are in the \newglossaryentry (which is confusing enough to begin with!) and occasionally someone translates a command itself.
<c7p> http://files.ubuntu-manual.org/style-guide.pdf
<godbyk> otherwise, the bugs are usually just typos. misspelled commands, too many or to few braces, etc.
<jcisio> yes from the style guide, cite only things those should not be translated
<jcisio> many translator translates text in \gls though
<godbyk> jcisio: pages 14 and 15 of the style guide show things that shouldn't be translated.
<jcisio> yes I'm aware of that
<godbyk> (a few things on page 14 *should* be translated, though.)
<jcisio> yeah, that's one problem
<jcisio> the second is that translator doesn't need to read all that
<jcisio> (I must confess I read that document in less than 1 minutes)
<godbyk> it's really more for reference.
<jcisio> and missed the point about gls
<godbyk> to quickly explain the basics of the latex syntax and which bits should and shouldn't be translated.
<jcisio> there're much more translators than authors or editors
<jcisio> so there should be a dedicated document, one or half page, for them
<jcisio> all they want to know is: things should not be translated
<jcisio> well, more than once, I through the style-guide.pdf, and I'm after how many of them read more than 1 page
<godbyk> I think knowing a tiny bit of context is probably a good thing, too, though.
<godbyk> I often have to fix errors that are made because the translators just don't understand the syntax. So they inadvertently break things.
<jcisio> in Vietnamese there're dozen of translators
<jcisio> me too
<jcisio> that why I think about a dedicated guide for only translators
<godbyk> Are there things the translators need to know that aren't in chapter 4 of the style guide?
<godbyk> I'm not suggesting the translators need to read the entire guide -- on the contrary, I think they should be able to read chapter 4 and that should cover all they need to know.
<jcisio> 1/ things must not be translated 2/ some notes (like dont change `` '' into " ")
<godbyk> The quotes can be modified if your language uses some other quotation marks, though.
<godbyk> If you use American-style quotes, then they should be left as is, however.
<godbyk> (Or turned into their unicode counterparts.)
<jcisio> it breaks, I think
<godbyk> the builds should be updated now, btw.
<godbyk> it shouldn't break.
<jcisio> they replace those by â â and it breaks
<godbyk> really?
<jcisio> I fixed once when it threw an error on that
<godbyk> it should generally work.
<godbyk> but if your language uses American-style quotes, then leaving them as `` and '' will be fine.
<jcisio> yes
<jcisio> when copy/paste from OpenOffice, it is â â, or if they type themselves, "...", (can't distinguish " and '')
<c7p> godbyk, i hope you find a good font for headings :), night all
<godbyk> c7p: I'll try. :)
<godbyk> g'night, c7p
<c7p> godbyk, ty g night :)
<godbyk> jcisio: Ah, well,  â â are fine, but " is evil and won't be correct.
<jcisio> yes, they just don't know, I must say well sometimes they should copy/paste
<jcisio> you had to fix at least once \Idots in Vietnamese ;)
<godbyk> Yeah, that one was funny because I knew exactly why it occurred. :)
<jcisio> godbyk, builds look good, and warning come back from 4 to 122 in en_US
<godbyk> jcisio: yeah, I ran an extra script previously to filter out some of the warnings I don't care about.
<godbyk> I haven't reran that script yet.
<godbyk> most of the warnings are just about the margin notes getting moved around a bit.
<jcisio> do you know how to fix those warnings?
<godbyk> you can't.
<jcisio> (I get that in my thesis, too ;))
<godbyk> it's just latex doing its thing.
<jcisio> too much warning
<godbyk> generally it tells you that when it moves a marginpar to avoid running into another marginpar or to prevent it from running off the end of the page.
<jcisio> these warnings happen only with complex layout?
<jcisio> I saw a few documents compiled without any warning
 * jcisio don't have time dig into LaTeX warnings
<godbyk> yeah, usually when you have a more complex layout or when you use a lot of marginpar's.
#ubuntu-manual 2010-05-07
<daker> godbyk, help!
<godbyk> daker: what's up?
<daker> i can't start mysql server
<daker> start mysql
<daker> Warning: Fake initctl called, doing nothing.
<godbyk> 'sudo start mysql'?
<godbyk> or the old-fashioned way: 'sudo /etc/init.d/mysql start'
<daker> daker@ubuntu:~$ sudo start mysql
<daker> Warning: Fake initctl called, doing nothing.
<daker> the same
<daker> error
<jcisio> service mysqld start
<godbyk> hmm..
<daker> jcisio, there is no mysqld sevice
<jcisio> godbyk, I'm writing a text for translator about what should not be translated
<godbyk> jcisio: okay
<godbyk> daker: I'm not sure.. maybe check the log files for errors? (look in /var/log for mysql* files or 'messages')
<daker> :s
<daker> godbyk, http://freshmeat.net/projects/docbookwiki
<daker> sf site : http://doc-book.sourceforge.net/homepage/
<godbyk> daker: neat. I'll take a look at it.
<jcisio> godbyk, how to display `` in LaTeX?
<godbyk> jcisio: you can try \verb|``|
<jcisio> thanks
<ubuntujenkins> hmm getting the manual into mavrick could be hard
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: oh yeah?
<ubuntujenkins> persia> I'm not sure it's enough to have meaningful value as it's own package if it's a glorified .desktop file.
<ubuntujenkins> <persia> You could upload it to REVU, but I believe the backlog is larger than will be processed during the maverick cycle, which makes it awkward.
<ubuntujenkins> <persia> And I agree there's no point trying to get it in Debian: it doesn't belong there.
<ubuntujenkins> we can get it into the cue to be reviewed but we may not get it in
<ubuntujenkins> it is basically a glorified .desktop file.
<ubuntujenkins> it was sugested that it went into debian as it would get in to ubuntu quicker but there is no use for it there.
<ubuntujenkins> I will strive to do my best to get it in
<jcisio> http://jcisio.com/upload/translator-cheatsheet.pdf half-page translator cheatsheet
<ubuntujenkins> any thought/suggestions godbyk ?
<jcisio> time go to bed, bb all
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: Hmm..
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: I'm not sure.  I don't know why it would be unacceptable, I guess.
<ubuntujenkins> I was told "Basic guidelines are: lintian-clean, nicely packaged, of interest to some Ubuntu developer." I questioned the ubuntu dev bit . I think we make it then try and get it in
<godbyk> yeah, the ubuntu dev bit.. I don't understand that.
<godbyk> do they mean it has to interest some dev enough to adopt our package?
<godbyk> because there are loads of non-development-related packages in ubuntu.
<ubuntujenkins> I don't know i did ask but the question was not directly answered
<godbyk> 'kay.
<ubuntujenkins> we shall see
<godbyk> I guess.
<godbyk> Seems to me like it shouldn't be that big of a deal.
<godbyk> well, I think I'm going to go read a book for a while before passing out.
<ubuntujenkins> I am off to bed as well night all
<ubuntujenkins> night god
<ubuntujenkins> * godbyk
<godbyk> (still trying to push my sleep time around the clock.  woke up at 11pm last night and it's 7pm now.  might try to hold out a bit longer, but it's not happening in front of this computer screen!)
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: I respond to god, too. :)
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: g'night!
<ubuntujenkins> lol night
<daker> godbyk, i think the problem is initctl
<daker> sudo initctl
<daker> [sudo] password for daker:
<daker> Warning: Fake initctl called, doing nothing.
<daker> http://old.nabble.com/Bug-571056:-chroot_upstart:-divert-initctl-(like-policy-rc.d)-to-fix-start(8)-in-Ubuntu-Lucid-postinsts.-td27697926.html
<hemanth> Red_HamsterX, hi, yesterday sadly had issues with my display :(, read the irc logs now. ubuntujenkins had introduced me to you
 * Red_HamsterX belatedly "hi"s at hemanth.
 * hemanth o/
<godbyk> morning.
<ubuntujenkins> moring godbyk
<godbyk> I slept from 1930 to 0030 and then read for a bit. Finally got out of bed and showered. It's now 0300.
<godbyk> My sleep time is slowly getting back to something akin to normal, I suppose..
<ubuntujenkins> just what i was going to say
<godbyk> daker sent me this link earlier: http://doc-book.sourceforge.net/homepage/
<godbyk> It looks like that might be just what we're after.
<ubuntujenkins> nice looks good
<ubuntujenkins> I am off to another group meeting see you later o/
<godbyk> see ya
<nisshh> hey all, nearly fell asleep at college today!
<nisshh> been up nearly 48 hours straight!
<godbyk> that sucks.
<thorwil> http://www.scribd.com/documents/30964170/Scribd-in-HTML5
<nisshh> godbyk: yea, BUT i know what its like to be sleep deprived now :)
<nisshh> so i did learn something today
<godbyk> heh.. there ya go, nisshh
<nisshh> thorwil: seen that!
<godbyk> thorwil: cool.  our doc is already on scribd, btw: http://www.scribd.com/doc/30667167/Getting-Started-With-Ubuntu-10-04
<thorwil> just how the selectable text in custom font fits neatly in the comic is damn nice
<godbyk> yeah, it is
<nisshh> i like it
<nisshh> no 100% cpu either
<godbyk> looks like ours gets mangled a bit: http://www.scribd.com/documents/30667167/Getting-Started-With-Ubuntu-10-04
<thorwil> ugh
<nisshh> just a bit yea
<godbyk> daker sent me this link earlier: http://doc-book.sourceforge.net/homepage/
<godbyk> which looks like what we may want to use for this new site (after it's been heavily modified).
<godbyk> at least, the keywords sound right. :)
<nisshh> godbyk: yea
<nisshh> just tried out a tiled window manager called xmonad, its so awesome!
<nisshh> except for the fact that its not designed for 19 inch monitors
<nisshh> needds something bigger
<nisshh> brb
<thorwil> godbyk: this sounds like dita would be a bad idea: http://www.scriptorium.com/palimpsest/2006/01/to-dita-or-not-to-dita.html
<thorwil> though the topic concept sounds like it could with offering our content in varying "packages"
<godbyk> true.
<godbyk> I wonder how Mallard compares.
<godbyk> http://projectmallard.org/
<godbyk> it seems the gnome docs are headed that direction.
<godbyk> and ubuntu docs appear to be following suit (or are at least leaning that way)
<godbyk> the biggest downside that I see is that we'll still have to edit the resulting tex code (and possibly html code) to ensure perfect typography.
<godbyk> then again, we had to do that anyway.
<synergetic> Out of curiosity, is there any rule about the manual that it must be written in simple English?
<godbyk> synergetic: What do you mean?
<synergetic> godbyk: Where Simple English has a limited list of words and you only write using that vocabulary such that it's written plainly enough that anyone who can read should be able to understand it - it should also be easier to translate.
<synergetic> I wasn't sure if there was any set rule or if it was a general "keep it simple, use your common sense"
<godbyk> synergetic: There's not a set rule (yet), but it is a goal we have.
<godbyk> We're going to be working on a style guide to help establish some of those rules.
<godbyk> It's more of a KISS notion at the moment.
<synergetic> ah godbyk: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_English that being what I was thinking of, Basic English
<godbyk> There was some movement in the US federal government a decade or two ago to start producing materials in Plain Language, which is the same concept, instead of the standard legalese.
<godbyk> I'm not sure how pervasive it's become in practice, though.
<synergetic> but there seems to be a dozen different varieties of simplified English - wasn't sure if there was one that you all subscribed to for the purposes of the manual
<godbyk> We're not explicitly using any of the simplified English rules at the moment.
<godbyk> I doubt we'd adopt any strict rules like that.
<synergetic> godbyk: Not particularly pervasive, as far as I can tell - but I doubt I would have noticed either way, if I'm honest. But I do remember something about local newspapers aiming to write at a 5th Grade reading level and the New York Times writing at an 8th Grade reading level (or something like that)
<godbyk> But we certainly would prefer that the language be clear, concise, and readable.
<godbyk> Yeah, that's probably true.
<godbyk> I've heard similar numbers.
<godbyk> I've got a program someplace that I could run the manual through to calculate the reading level using different metrics.
<godbyk> Perhaps I'll try that later today.
<synergetic> I'd certainly be curious to know the results.
<synergetic> I'm wondering if anyone has spoken to the RockBox group - they do their manuals in LaTeX and produce both PDF and HTML documents from it
<synergetic> Perhaps to find out how they do their LaTeX->HTML
<synergetic> http://www.rockbox.org/manual.shtml
<godbyk> They're using a program called TeX4ht.
<godbyk> Unfortunately, TeX4ht doesn't like our XeLaTeX files.
<synergetic> Ahh. Ok.
<ubuntujenkins> yey my headset has arived
<synergetic> I haven't gotten around to looking at the LaTeX sources for the manual so I'm not sure how it works. I'll have to dig in to get a better idea of how it all works. Thanks godbyk!
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: awesome! we'll have to test it out.
<ubuntujenkins> yep i will just have to get it set up right first
<godbyk> synergetic: no problem. if you have any questions about it, feel free to ask.
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk: skype test?
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: sure.
<godbyk> I should be online.
<ubuntujenkins> I don't see oyu online
<godbyk> I don't see you online either.
<godbyk> Ah, there you go.
<ubuntujenkins> I can here you
<godbyk> ok
<ubuntujenkins> It worked a scond ago
<ubuntujenkins> I call you back
<godbyk> k
<c7p> hello
<ubuntujenkins> hello c7p
<c7p> godbyk, from what i see you managed to compile the greek manual successful with the screenshots in place , good job :)
<godbyk> thanks.
<godbyk> there may still be a few bugs in there.
<c7p> yes there are but we can work on them
<c7p> is there a place i can report the bugs or the work will be done through this channel ?
<c7p> godbyk, how can i compile a manual with the screenshots in place ?
<godbyk> c7p: if you have the lucid-e1 branch files, you can just run 'make ubuntu-manual-el.pdf'
<c7p> godbyk how can i get lucid-e1 branch files ?
<godbyk> c7p: http://ubuntu-manual.org/getinvolved/authors
<c7p> i think i should rerun the command
<godbyk> Hey, daker. That docbook wiki site you linked me too looks to be pretty much what we'd like to do with our site.  (We'd have to overhaul the user interface and add some feature to it, but I think the underlying idea is the same.)
<daker> oki
<daker> godbyk, http://blog.astrumfutura.com/archives/369-Writing-Professional-Looking-Documentation-With-Docbook,-PHP,-Phing-and-Apache-FOP-Part-1-Getting-Started.html
<godbyk> I've updated the PDFs at http://builds.ubuntu-manual.org/
<synergetic> is there anywhere where new folk can introduce themselves formally?
<ubuntujenkins> hello synergetic, an e-mail to the list?
<synergetic> ubuntujenkins: Righto - I may do that, then. I wasn't sure if there was anywhere on the website that had profiles or greetings or anything
<ubuntujenkins> nope we have nothing like that, that is an idea for the future
<synergetic> ubuntujenkins: Righto - I may do that, then. I wasn't sure if there was anywhere on the website that had profiles or greetings or anything "Have a look at our Getting Started FAQ" or "Meet the Team"
<synergetic> argh. accidentally c/p'd away my response
<ubuntujenkins> lol no problem
<synergetic> it SHOULD have said - I had a look at "Become an Author" but I didn't see anything like "Have a look at t our Getting Started FAQ" or "Meet the Team"
<ubuntujenkins> add it to your e-mail as a suggestion, it would be a good idea
<daker> ubuntujenkins, it would be great if we add a factoid for this
<daker> +team
<quickshotdevs> Factoid 'team' not found
<daker> :p
<ubuntujenkins> See if dutchie will ad it to manualbot :P
<daker> oki
<daker> godbyk, can't find a solution for my problem :s
<godbyk> daker: what problem are you having?
<daker> daker@ubuntu:~$ sudo mysql
<daker> ERROR 2002 (HY000): Can't connect to local MySQL server through socket '/var/run/mysqld/mysqld.sock' (2)
<godbyk> you shouldn't have to run mysql as sudo.
<godbyk> just run mysql
<godbyk> but you need to tell it what to connect to (which server, databsae, etc.)
<godbyk> like: mysql -h localhost -u username -p databasename
<godbyk> then it'll prompt for the password
<daker> the same error
<godbyk> is the mysql server running?
<daker> i don't think
<godbyk> 'kay. so we need to get that running first.
<godbyk> are you on lucid or karmic or what?
<daker> lucid
<godbyk> okay, I know they changed the startup stuff, but I think the old ways may still work, too.
<godbyk> try: sudo /etc/init.d/mysql restart
<daker> daker@ubuntu:~$ sudo /etc/init.d/mysql restart
<daker> Rather than invoking init scripts through /etc/init.d, use the service(8)
<daker> utility, e.g. service mysql restart
<daker> Since the script you are attempting to invoke has been converted to an
<daker> Upstart job, you may also use the restart(8) utility, e.g. restart mysql
<daker> Warning: Fake initctl called, doing nothing.
<daker> well the problem is initctl
<daker> also with the service command
<godbyk> try 'sudo service mysql restart' or 'sudo restart mysql'
<daker> daker@ubuntu:~$ sudo service mysql restart
<daker> Warning: Fake initctl called, doing nothing.
<daker> daker@ubuntu:~$ sudo restart mysql
<daker> Warning: Fake initctl called, doing nothing.
<godbyk> hmm.. I have no idea what that means.
<godbyk> I guess ask in #ubuntu?
<daker> oki
 * thorwil doesn't understand why there are so many people in #ubuntu because there are so many people there
<godbyk> my copy of the manual just arrived.
<daker> Waw
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk: whats the paper like?
<daker> godbyk, picture ?
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: it's pretty decent.
<godbyk> I'm taking pics right now, daker
<godbyk> I'll upload them in just a moment.
<godbyk> any specific pics you guys want?
<godbyk> thorwil: the spine alignment looks perfect!
<godbyk> thorwil: and you'll be pleased to know that no heads were cropped.
<thorwil> excellent! :)
<ubuntujenkins> It will be intersting to compare against my copy
<thorwil> godbyk: i will appreciate sharp hi-res photos on neutral ground ;)
<godbyk> thorwil: I'll take some of those a bit later for ya.  right now they're just lame camera phone pics in a low-lit room.
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: where's that all-black grub screenshot?
<godbyk> I want to see what kind of ghosting there is.
<ubuntujenkins> hmm near the back
<ubuntujenkins> page 136
<nisshh>  /quit
<nisshh> oops
<godbyk> grr.. the lighting in this room totally sucks.
<godbyk> let me grab my actual camera and see if there's a better lit room for this.
<godbyk> be back in a few minutes (with better pics, I hope).
<godbyk> okay, I'm back now.
<godbyk> it's an overcast day, so the lighting sucks.
<godbyk> but I'll upload these photos for you guys.
<daker> just to see how it looks
<godbyk> Uploading now.
<c7p> hello all
<godbyk> Hey, c7p.
<godbyk> Morning, IlyaHaykinson_.
<IlyaHaykinson_> hi godbyk
<godbyk> I got my copy of the manual today.  Uploading some photos now.
<IlyaHaykinson_> just stopping by for a second. was buying a book on running usability research
<godbyk> cool. which book?
<IlyaHaykinson_> "Observing the User Exprience - A Practitioner's Guide for User Research"
<godbyk> By Kuniavsky?
<IlyaHaykinson_> yup
<godbyk> We used that for a class.
<godbyk> In fact, that's where my previous lulu.com experience came from.
<IlyaHaykinson_> ah nice. decent book? i saw it in a reference list
<godbyk> That Shiny Happy Users book on lulu is a collection of essays that my classmates and I wrote as we were reading that book.
<IlyaHaykinson_> from a presentation by some vmware guy who emailed me in response to my techwr-l
<IlyaHaykinson_> ah very cool
<godbyk> (At http://www.shinyhappyusers.org, you can snag a free copy of the PDF/ebook.)
<IlyaHaykinson_> hm, my lulu order is still fulfilling!
<godbyk> It's an okay book for getting an quick overview of the various methods of researching the user experience.
<IlyaHaykinson_> cool. well, hopefully i'll think likewise. :)
<IlyaHaykinson_> alright, emailed lulu; hopefully they can fix the order for me.
<IlyaHaykinson_> ok, gotta go. conference call in 10 mins.
<IlyaHaykinson_> l8r
<godbyk> see ya.
 * ubuntujenkins gets the shinyhappy users podcasts
<godbyk> oh, dear.
<ubuntujenkins> I don't have time to read at the moment but i always ahve something playing
<godbyk> I don't know if any of my talks are there, but if so, you should know that I'm talking a mile a minute because we only have 5 minutes for each presentation.
<godbyk> The presentations are each really short.. 5-10 minutes.
<godbyk> okay, pics are up: http://files.ubuntu-manual.org/photos/lucid-e1/
<ubuntujenkins> nice i will listen after dinner
<godbyk> taken by me (and I suck at photos) using my crappy point-and-shoot camera.
<godbyk> so go easy on me.
<c7p> the manual looks very nice on paper even without colourful print
<daker> godbyk, GREAT
<synergetic> godbyk: how close is the right margin on the left-hand pages? they look quite narrow in this picture: http://files.ubuntu-manual.org/photos/lucid-e1/img_1918.jpg
<godbyk> synergetic: When you're holding the book in your hand, the margin there looks fine.
<godbyk> In that photo, the book was on a table, with the right-hand side lying flat on the table.
<godbyk> to the margin got folded around the left-hand-side page a bit.
<godbyk> (I couldn't hold the book open with one hand the camera at arm's length with the other hand. :))
<synergetic> godbyk: cool, i was wondering that when i was looking at the PDF, too, how the margins would be when printed. if they're find then that's good ^_^
<synergetic> *fine
<godbyk> synergetic: I was wondering, too.  That's why I sprang for a printed copy -- just to make sure it all works out okay. :)
<synergetic> are you going to give people the option to order printed copies in the ubuntu store?
<godbyk> synergetic: that'd be cool, but I haven't any idea how to go about setting that up.
<godbyk> currently, you can purchase a printed copy via lulu.com for ~10 USD.
<godbyk> The PDF is also available if someone wants to take it to their local print shop.
<synergetic> I have no idea how that'd be set up, either - if there'd be a central printers that we'd get them from or maybe a link to lulu
<synergetic> I'd personally just take it to the campus print shop but then it wouldn't have that stunning binding ^_^
<godbyk> thorwil's cover does package it all up quite nicely.
<godbyk> It's just a PDF, too.
<godbyk> Your campus probably has binding services available.
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk these talks are good watching yours now :)
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: uh oh!
<godbyk> what's the topic?
 * godbyk doesn't remember anything he said in those talks.
<ubuntujenkins> pesona's for a website
<godbyk> aha.
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: Some text if you want to read along: http://kevin.godby.org/2007/02/23/using-personas-to-design-a-website-a-real-world-example/  :)
 * ubuntujenkins reads along
<godbyk> (link to the slides is at the bottom of the post)
<godbyk> apparently the formatting of that blog entry didn't survive switching themes. :-(  I'll have to fix that someday.
<ubuntujenkins> its good, now i know where all this persona stuff came from
<godbyk> heh
<synergetic> godbyk: they do have binding services but they're plain solid black binding
<godbyk> synergetic: Ah, bummer.
<godbyk> Hey, ubuntujenkins, what'd it cost you to order a copy of the book from lulu?
<thorwil> godbyk: is the ubuntu store on Ben's radar?
<godbyk> thorwil: not that I'm aware of.
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk: Â£5.17 with the FREESHIP code
<godbyk> there ya go, synergetic. Only five pounds!  A bargain! :)
<synergetic> godbyk: indeed!
<ubuntujenkins> it took a week for me to get it from ordering it
<synergetic> godbyk: i've been working on bringing my grandfather over to ubuntu but he doesn't trust anything that doesn't come with a comprehensive manual
<synergetic> godbyk: it'd be a help ^_^
<godbyk> synergetic: I don't blame him!
<godbyk> I miss good manuals.
<synergetic> godbyk: I'd read an article the other day on the iPad coming without a manual. The fellow writing it lamenting the loss of good manuals. I'll see if I can find it if you'd like?
<godbyk> While the doc team complains about overlapping audiences and material, I think a printed book reaches people who would never click System > Help and Support.
<synergetic> godbyk: http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/features/ipad-manual-not-included-1956027.html
<godbyk> neat, thanks!
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk: also the book is quicker to find vs loading time of yelp
<ubuntujenkins> :P
<synergetic> godbyk: There was a book that came out explaining the last LTS but it was out-of-date by the time I wanted to put ubuntu on my grandfather's computer.
<godbyk> Yeah, O'Reilly (I think) has an entire series of books called 'The Missing Manuals'.
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: ha! so true.
<godbyk> though our index needs a lot of work. (it's on my to do list for the second edition.)
<daker> godbyk, the problem has been solved
<godbyk> daker: excellent! how did you fix it?
<daker> @Waver from #ubuntu-ma
<manualbot> daker: Error: "Waver" is not a valid command.
<daker> well there a lot of command that i typed
<daker> are*
<daker> but the one that should work is :
<daker> apt-get install --reinstall upstart
<godbyk> ah.
<daker> apt-get install --reinstall mysql-server
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk: I liked your talk, listening to more now i am back from shopping
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: Cool, thanks.
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: I may have more on my blog that aren't in that podcast. I don't remember.
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk: I will have a look
<godbyk> I sometimes tried to find things to discuss that would cause discussion and debate. (I enjoy playing devil's advocate, what can I say?)
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk: pauvcontrol on the configuration tab if you change you Internal audio to "off". Does the sound controls then work on your headset? It does for me I am trying to work out the command that it calls so I can try and write a udev rule
<ubuntujenkins> not that i have written one before but still
<c7p> godbyk do you have some time to fix some bugs on the greek manual ?
<ubuntujenkins> c7p: is it compiling errors? If so i will try, i am not sure godbyk is here right now
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: I think I just went to the audio preferences in gnome and selected the thing I wanted the buttons to control.. the default volume whatchamacallit.
<c7p> ubuntujenkins, no
<godbyk> c7p: sure. what's up?
<c7p> godbyk, i think some margin notes should be placed on another position on the page
<godbyk> c7p: yes, that's definitely true.
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk: I will have a dig, now that the sound preferences is silly its harder to find stuff
<c7p> what can we do about it ?
<godbyk> the process I went through for the english version was to fix everything else first and then move the margin notes to where they should be.
<godbyk> well, it involves moving the lines of code around, so we have to wait until the translation is completely finished, edited, and approved first.
<godbyk> then we can move them around to where they need to go.
<godbyk> (otherwise you'll have to retranslate a ton of stuff)
<c7p> the translation is 100% completed and reviewed, on the translation and review part the job is finished
<godbyk> so you're promising there are no spelling errors, etc.?
<c7p> so we can move on :)
<godbyk> does it compile cleanly with no errors and warnings? (excluding marginpar warnings)
<c7p> we spend this week only reviewing and correcting the string
<c7p> s
<c7p> http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/429696/
<c7p> Success!  Wrote 178 pages
<c7p> godbyk is this a clean compilation :/ ?
<godbyk> It looks like there are a lot of overfull boxes. Usually this means the hyphenation isn't working. Let me poke around a bit and see if I can fix that.
<c7p> ok
<c7p> ah
<godbyk> Also, on my end the index isn't compiling (which is a problem with the Makefile, not your tex stuff.)
<godbyk> 'overfull box' just means 'the line was too long and tex couldn't find a good way to wrap it'
<c7p> the pdf on the "builds" is a bit diffirent from the one i have compiled (your's has less mistakes)
<c7p> thank you for the information
<godbyk> some questions so I can set up the language stuff properly:
<godbyk> monotonic, polytonic, or ancient?
<c7p> monotonic
<godbyk> greek or arabic numerals? (for page numbers and numered lists)
<c7p> lists on english is with arabic numerals right?
<c7p> arabic numerals
<godbyk> yeah, lists in the english version are using arabic numerals.
<c7p> use arabic numerals
<godbyk> or I guess we can use the acrophonic numbering system (see unicode characters U+10140 through U+10174) [whatever this means]
<godbyk> okay
<dutchie> evening
<godbyk> hey, dutchie
<c7p> g evening dutchie
<ubuntujenkins> hello dutchie
 * dutchie is tired
 * ubuntujenkins so am i
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk: I can't find where to set these buttons. I think it may be this new audio control thing (2 releases old)
<godbyk> ah, could be.
<godbyk> that's just where I went on karmic.
<godbyk> I haven't looked in lucid yet.
<ubuntujenkins> brb
<c7p> how is it going godbyk ?
<godbyk> c7p: I think I have that language stuff sorted, but the index is complaining.
<godbyk> trying to sort that now.
<godbyk> I've always hated the indexing programs. they're so picky and never tell you anything useful.
<c7p> :/ i wish i could help
<godbyk> me too. :)
<ubuntujenkins> night all
<c7p> night ubuntujenkins
<godbyk> g'night, ubuntujenkins.
<c7p> godbyk it's about 00:30 here, i can stay if you need me something
<godbyk> c7p: nah, I'm gonna have to poke around some more to work out the indexing thing.
<godbyk> it's a bit of a mess.
<godbyk> I got part of it working
<godbyk> but now another part hates me.
<godbyk> (the feeling's mutual)
<godbyk> I think I'm going to go take a short nap.  then maybe hit up the grocery store.
<godbyk> let the indexing program thing long and hard about its attitude. see if that sets it straight. :)
#ubuntu-manual 2010-05-08
<godbyk> Hey, IlyaHaykinson.  I created a pad for us to add notes on how to expand/improve the style guide: http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/ump-style-guide
<godbyk> feel free to dump your thoughts there as you have time.
<IlyaHaykinson> sweet, will do, thanks!
<IlyaHaykinson> btw did you resolve thelucid-e2 branch situation?
<godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: I haven't yet. I was going to bring it up at the meeting, but we didn't get to it.
<IlyaHaykinson> i see.
<godbyk> I'm hoping to find someone that knows more than me about launchpad/bzr to help with it (so I don't blow something up)
<IlyaHaykinson> i say go ahead and do it. otherwise we'll never get started on e2...
<godbyk> you're probably right.
<IlyaHaykinson> plus, with humphrey being out for a month, we'll have a gap in coordination
<godbyk> do you know if/how I can kill the branch but leave in all the milestones (and readd the branch to that series)?
<IlyaHaykinson> hm. not sure about that at all.
<IlyaHaykinson> i don't know bazaar very well.
<godbyk> me neither.
<IlyaHaykinson> oh, but there's #bzr
<godbyk> good idea.
<godbyk> I'll ask there.
<godbyk> (hopefully they don't flame me too badly.) :)
<godbyk> I've posed the question in #bzr. We'll see what they say.
<godbyk> They may redirect me to #launchpad, too.
<IlyaHaykinson> nod. it looks like a slow channel though
<godbyk> indeed.
<godbyk> maybe I'm better off going to #launchpad anyway.
<godbyk> they're usually pretty responsive there.
<godbyk> Seems like a dead channel (#bzr).  I'll try #launchpad.
<nisshh> IlyaHaykinson: im free to help you out now if you would like?
<IlyaHaykinson> well, nothing much is happening yet. but let me forward to you some results of a question i asked on the technical writing mailing list.
<IlyaHaykinson> one sec
<godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: well, this sounds easier than I thought it'd be.
<godbyk> wgrant from #launchpad walked me through it.
<nisshh> IlyaHaykinson: ok, im grabbing some lunch now, ill be back in 10 minutes or so
<IlyaHaykinson> godbyk: sweet.
<IlyaHaykinson> nisshh: np
<IlyaHaykinson> ok, i added some comments about the style guide
<IlyaHaykinson> though it really ought to be committed somewhere at some point :)
<IlyaHaykinson> unless it already is.
<godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: great
<IlyaHaykinson> bbiab
<godbyk> I've detached the existing branch.
<godbyk> I'm creating a new branch on my hard drive right now.
<godbyk> will push it when I'm done.
<nisshh> back now
<nisshh> IlyaHaykinson: are you able to give me a rundown on what your planning? what you want me to do?
<IlyaHaykinson> nisshh: i'm honestly not sure yet. there's an etherpad with some thoughts, hang on, let me find it
<IlyaHaykinson> http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/xniGvB2Nlq
<IlyaHaykinson> these are my general thoughts
<IlyaHaykinson> but, generally, i think we need to carefully recruit a bunch of users that are our target audience
<IlyaHaykinson> figure out what they need from a manual
<IlyaHaykinson> figure out whether the manual we've written works for them
<IlyaHaykinson> then do quantitative research (i.e. surveys etc) to confirm information gathered in these focus groups
<nisshh> right
<IlyaHaykinson> and then summarize it all into recommendations
<nisshh> sounds like a good plan
<nisshh> where do you plan on getting these recruits>
<nisshh> ?
<IlyaHaykinson> i'm hoping to get my friend -- who runs panels etc -- started on this soon.
<IlyaHaykinson> recruits? craigslist, and the like
<IlyaHaykinson> we'll need to create a good screener
<nisshh> ah ok
<IlyaHaykinson> where they don't know we're asking about the manual
<IlyaHaykinson> or about ubuntu
<nisshh> screener?
<nisshh> oh ok
<IlyaHaykinson> questionnaire to screen people when recruiting them
<nisshh> have to make sure each person is being honest
<nisshh> unfortunantly there is no one i know of in my area that even uses linux
<nisshh> and the closest LUG is 2 hours away
<nisshh> IlyaHaykinson: so i suppose the first thing to do would be to create this questionnaire?
<IlyaHaykinson> well, we don't _want_ people who use linux, right?
<godbyk> nisshh: I think the manual is intended for people who don't/haven't used linux/ubuntu yet.
<IlyaHaykinson> we're targeting new users
<IlyaHaykinson> nisshh: i don't know, actually, what the steps should be. probably we should settle on what users we want to reach, and then figure out where we're going to recruit them.
<IlyaHaykinson> then, yes, come up with the questionnaire
<IlyaHaykinson> i really did want my friend Hilary to drive a bunch of this, since she's got the experience. if i can't get her to start contributing by wed-thurs of next week, we'll proceed on our own
<godbyk> Okay, I've copied the .tex files (and related tex stuff), the Makefile, the README file, the po4a.conf file, and the screenshots file over to the new branch I'm creating.
<godbyk> What have I forgotten?
<nisshh> godbyk: yea, i didnt really use the right words there, i meant: no one in my area is even remotely computer literate
<nisshh> godbyk: i dont know, but someone always forgets something
<godbyk> I know. :)
<godbyk> I can add it later, it's not a huge deal, I guess.
<godbyk> I'd rather start the branch with too few files than too many.
<godbyk> the whole ideas is to reduce the branch size, after all.
<nisshh> godbyk: maybe to a test compile?
<nisshh> if it compiles then all required stuff should be there
<godbyk> nisshh: yeah, I'm definitely doing that. :)
<nisshh> IlyaHaykinson: which users do we want to reach? windows converts? novice linux users?
<IlyaHaykinson> nisshh: new computer users; people with windows or mac skills; those who would be likely to try out ubuntu.
<IlyaHaykinson> or ones who've tried and didn't end up using it.
<nisshh> ok, where could we find people like that?
<IlyaHaykinson> universities; online; coffee shops....
<IlyaHaykinson> as long as the screener is decently written and doesn't pre-select people too much, we should end up with a reasonable group of people.
<nisshh> oh hang on, so you want to create something like a handout screener of questions or something?
<godbyk> brb
<IlyaHaykinson> well, more like a "do you want to do this study? no reward, but you'll be helping people" type of a thing. and a URL to go answer a ton of questions.
<IlyaHaykinson> that invitation to the URL could really be posted anywhere.
<IlyaHaykinson> we'll just need to screen the people who fill out the URL to have a good mix of the people we want selected
<IlyaHaykinson> which means we need hundreds of people to fill out the screener, so that we end up with 10-15 whom we actually interview or study
<nisshh> IlyaHaykinson: ok, so something on our website?
<IlyaHaykinson> right.
<IlyaHaykinson> or, well, something not connected directly with our website
<IlyaHaykinson> so that they can't realize it's for ubuntu before they fill out the survey
<IlyaHaykinson> cause otherwise that'd influence them ahead of time
<IlyaHaykinson> and we wouldn't have a fair mix of people
<nisshh> right, so a generic survey website?
<nisshh> jaminday: hey, havent seen you on here in a while!
<jaminday> nisshh: hey! yeah been real busy last month or so
<IlyaHaykinson> nisshh: yeah, i think that would be a good idea
<jaminday> I'll be trying to get back in here more often though!
<nisshh> ok, do you have a good one in mind or do you need to do some research?
<IlyaHaykinson> we could use what i used last time
<IlyaHaykinson> questionpro
<nisshh> jaminday: good! we need more people all the time
<IlyaHaykinson> limited to 10 questions for free
<nisshh> is 10 enough?
<IlyaHaykinson> or, we can set up limesurvey (we already have it on ubuntu-manual.org, but probably could host it on another domain too)
<nisshh> questionpro would be fine if we only had 10 or less questions to ask a think
<nisshh> i think
<IlyaHaykinson> nod.
<nisshh> hmmm, so whats next>
<godbyk> back now
<godbyk> Hey, jaminday!
<IlyaHaykinson> let's wait for my friend Hilary... for a few days. then move forward with the next steps.
<godbyk> jaminday: If you have any thoughts on improving/expanding the style guide, you can add them to this pad I've created: http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/ump-style-guide
<godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: surveymonkey is one that gets used a lot at my university. not sure what it costs or what features/restrictions it has.
<godbyk> (it's not particularly pretty.)
<nisshh> http://www.surveymonkey.com/Home_PricingDetail.aspx
<nisshh> same 10 question limit
<godbyk> looks like it.
<godbyk> we have our own survey software at http://survey.ubuntu-manual.org, too..
<godbyk> though if you want to hide the 'ubuntu-manual.org' part, we'd need to set up a CNAME DNS alias
<nisshh> yea we do
<IlyaHaykinson> godbyk: yeah, we may just end up doing the CNAME
<IlyaHaykinson> would be easier
<godbyk> yeah.
<IlyaHaykinson> than using questionpro / surveymonkey
<nisshh> yes, and we get more control over the survey too
<IlyaHaykinson> well, not easier -- but we'd have more control
<IlyaHaykinson> heh. right.
<nisshh> hehe
<godbyk> I've got a hairetes.org domain that I'm planning to use for my dissertaion.
<godbyk> dissertation, rather.
<godbyk> it has no other associations at the moment.
<godbyk> I could CNAME survey.hairetes.org over and we could use that as a cloak.
<godbyk> or if someone else has a better domain, that's fine, too.
<nisshh> nope
<nisshh> i think thats fine
<nisshh> IlyaHaykinson: what do you think? use the CNAME godbyk suggested?
<IlyaHaykinson> sure; that works
<nisshh> godbyk: lets do it then!
<godbyk> Done. http://survey.hairetes.org/  May take a bit for the DNS changes to propagate.
<nisshh> ooh that was quick
<nisshh> yea its not functional just yet
<godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: You'll just have to make sure 'ubuntu manual' isn't mentioned in the survey software someplace then.
<IlyaHaykinson> ok
<IlyaHaykinson> thx
<nisshh> IlyaHaykinson: questions?
<IlyaHaykinson> for the screener? i have no idea.
<IlyaHaykinson> i need to think about them.
<IlyaHaykinson> we have time; again, i'd like to figure out what we want before we move forward with the questionnaire beyond this.
<nisshh> yep
<nisshh> im young, im impatient, dont take any notice.
<IlyaHaykinson> ;)
<nisshh> IlyaHaykinson: just ping me if you there is anything i can help you with, hows that sound?
<IlyaHaykinson> nod, perfect
<jaminday> hey godbyk, sorry was outside for a bit.
<godbyk> no problem
<jaminday> Yep sounds good i'll take a look at the pad
<c7p> godbyk how did go yesterday?
<godbyk> c7p: I don't think I got much farther with it.  Give me a few minutes.. I'm updating all the ubuntu-manual branches (and trying not to screw it up too badly in the process)
<c7p> godbyk take your time, i can understand that you are under pressure. I just want to know the progress of the work cause there are some people on the greek forums that want that translated manual and i have to inform them.
<godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: I've removed the original branch and replaced it with a fresh branch.
<godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: Can you please copy over your recent edits into the new branch?
<godbyk> Pulling lp:ubuntu-manual will get you the new (clean) branch.
<nisshh> yay!
<nisshh> ill fix my local copy up now then
<IlyaHaykinson> godbyk: ok, will do in a bit
<godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: thanks.
<godbyk> I've just sent an email to the list to explain that various branches and which one we should be doing work in.
<godbyk> hopefully we'll be more careful and discriminating in adding files to this branch so it doesn't get huge.
<godbyk> (I did leave the English screenshots in there. Not sure if I should've or not.)
<nisshh> godbyk: leave them in there because then we can make sure that the manual still compiles with them, incase of any screenshot issues
<c7p> godbyk: interesting info, so for the lucid-e1 branch what command do we type ? bzr branch lp:ubuntu-manual ?
<godbyk> c7p: yep, that command will get you the proper branch.
<godbyk> if you already have an ubuntu-manual dir, you'll want to rename it, probably.
<godbyk> Now I'm going to write an email explaining the plan for releasing the translated versions of the manual.
<c7p> godbyk: so i should update the branch on my PC, right
<godbyk> Any suggestions for how to go about selecting an editor for each translation?
<c7p> godbyk: very good
<godbyk> c7p: Yeah, if you previously had the second edition branch, you'll want to delete that and use the new one.
<godbyk> dutchie: you around?
<ubuntujenkins> morning all
<nisshh> ubuntujenkins: hey
<ubuntujenkins> hey nisshh
<nisshh> more like evening for me though :)
<nisshh> or late afternoon
<nisshh> maveric just opened for dev!
<ubuntujenkins> afternoon nisshh
<godbyk> okay, translation message sent.
<c7p> nice this message is a must for the project's progress
<c7p> a question
<c7p> The editors should be fluent in the language,
<c7p> willing to help edit .tex files directly
<c7p> does this mean that the editor have to know Latex ?
<godbyk> c7p: they won't have to know too much latex, really.
<godbyk> c7p: most of the editing I had to do with the english version was to move the \margonnote lines around so that they were in the right place.
<godbyk> most of the \marginnote lines are currently sitting as their own paragraph.  this is wrong.  (I should've pointed this out much earlier on, but hadn't really noticed it at the time.)
<godbyk> the \marginnote lines should be included in/with a normal paragraph.
<godbyk> so it's primarily a matter of either deleting the blank line after a \marginnote so that the margin note starts at the top of the following paragraph, or moving the \marginnote{...} stuff *inside* a paragraph so that it aligns with the content that it's in reference to.
<c7p> godbyk, so the "\marginnote" should be on the same string of the relevant paragraph ?
<godbyk> It'd be nice if the editor weren't also the primary translator of the text (as it's often hard to see mistakes in your own writing), but hopefully the editors will work with the translators to find all the bugs they can.
<godbyk> c7p: precisely.
<godbyk> c7p: If I moved them to their appropriate spots in the English text right now, though, it'd cause the translators a lot of grief (given that launchpad would discard the two translations and force you to retranslate the entire paragraph+\marginnote again).
<c7p> godbyk: don't worry, if you have a back up of the pot file then the only thing you have to do is to copy n paste the needed text, i can do that job for my language. No retranslation no grief :) as long as there is a back up of the pot file of the language ;)
<godbyk> right.
<godbyk> for this first edition, I think we'll just move the margin notes around manually.
<c7p> ok
<godbyk> for the second edition, I've already made the margin note corrections in the english version. so the translated versions will see them when we get to that point.
<c7p> good plan
<c7p> what do i have to do to move manually the margin notes ?
<godbyk> c7p: moving the margin notes is one of the very last things that will be done.  after all the translated text has been proofread.
<IlyaHaykinson> omg. i just spent 2 hrs trying to book a freaking plane ticket.
<godbyk> c7p: we generate the translated .tex file and then edit that file to move the margin notes around.
<IlyaHaykinson> i think i'm scarred.
<godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: holy cow! why'd it take so long?
<IlyaHaykinson> card getting declined
<IlyaHaykinson> first a travelocity, then again there twice. then at expedia.
<godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: naw, you'll be scarred after the TSA cavity search, though.
<IlyaHaykinson> then i call, unblock it. still declined. try the airline directly.
<IlyaHaykinson> decline.
<IlyaHaykinson> decline. decline. call the card company again. fix things. try again.
<IlyaHaykinson> FINALLY it works.
<godbyk> maybe you should pay your cc bill first. ;-)
<IlyaHaykinson> nah. it was a fraud block.
<godbyk> yeah, I've had those, too.
<godbyk> they're a pain.
<godbyk> 'yes, I know I never spend money, but y'know what, sometimes I need a new computer. so let me use this stupid card for once!'
<godbyk> usually it happens when I need something to ship in a hurry, too.
<godbyk> just one more stumbling block.
<IlyaHaykinson> yeah. plus the airline made my type in the passport info
<IlyaHaykinson> for me, my wife, and my kid.
<IlyaHaykinson> every time.
<IlyaHaykinson> argh!
 * IlyaHaykinson fumes.
<godbyk> lovely
<godbyk> where ya headed?
 * godbyk is writing all sorts of emails this evening.
<IlyaHaykinson> LA -> NYC -> Moscow -> NYC -> LA
<IlyaHaykinson> later this summer
<godbyk> cool
<IlyaHaykinson> oh, man, i hope so. 10 hour flight with an 19 month old toddler will be quite something.
<godbyk> ooh, yeah. that will be interesting.
<IlyaHaykinson> where should we put things like the manual tools?
<IlyaHaykinson> perhaps some other shared branch, that stays constant between releases?
<godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: what kind of tools?
<IlyaHaykinson> er, (proofread|spellcheck).py
<godbyk> Yeah, we should probably set up another branch for those sorts of things.  Style guide included.
<IlyaHaykinson> also, lucid-e2 won't build for me.
<c7p> godbyk from what i see editors of the translated version, have to type to type "bzr branch lp:ubuntu-manual/lucid-e1" instead of "bzr branch lp:ubuntu-manual" , that is described on the site
<IlyaHaykinson> "unable to load picture or PDF file 'graphics/advanced.pdf'"
<godbyk> c7p: The lucid-e1 branch is what the translators are working against right now.  the lp:ubuntu-manual branch is for the second edition work.
<godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: let me add those pdfs for ya.
<godbyk> (they were listed in the .bzrignore file, I think)
<godbyk> do you have stuff to commit/push first?
<IlyaHaykinson> nope
<godbyk> 'kay.
<IlyaHaykinson> was doing a build test first
<c7p> yeah that's what I said "translated version", all the editors working on the manual are working on the lucid-e1 so the site should be updated so as not to mislead editors of the translated pdfs
<godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: okay, icons pushed.
<IlyaHaykinson> titlepage/*.pdf issues now
<godbyk> c7p: which site needs to be updated?
<godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: figures. which of those are you missing?
<c7p> http://ubuntu-manual.org/getinvolved/authors
<IlyaHaykinson> title_page_letter_en
<godbyk> c7p: ah, gotcha. well, the site's accurate for authors and non-translator editors. I'll see what we can do for the translator editors.
<c7p> godbyk: ahh i din't knew that it was only for the English editors
<godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: okay, pushed those.
<godbyk> c7p: Well before 30 minutes ago, the notion of translator-editors didn't really exist. :)
<c7p> c7p: :) yeah
<IlyaHaykinson> godbyk: very nice; builds very happily now. thank you.
<godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: great!
<thorwil> godbyk: bzr+ssh://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-manual/ubuntu-manual/main/ translates to lucid-e1?
<godbyk> thorwil: that sounds like it could be right.  but lp:ubuntu-manual should point to lucid-e2.
<godbyk> (you have to do a fresh 'bzr branch lp:ubuntu-manual' though.)
<jcisio> hello
<jcisio> anyone is aware of what happened with vi translation?
<thorwil> https://code.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual makes it look like that would lucid-e2
<jcisio> it had less than 1200 untranslated yesterday, but now 1463 untranslated, 309 need reviews
<godbyk> jcisio: nice!
<thorwil> well, i will just do a fresh checkout to be sure what i'm pulling and pushing
<jcisio> I don't know what happened, 300 reviewed string become unreviewed
<godbyk> thorwil: yeah, because bzr store the 'real', expanded url in the local directory. so it may be using the original main/lucid-e1 branch.
<godbyk> jcisio: I'm not sure. We haven't updated the translation template file at all.
<jcisio> 2h ago it was ok, but not now
<jcisio> godbyk: I will wait a moment to see if it is a LP problem
<godbyk> jcisio: okay. let me know if you figure out what causes that. others have asked about it in the past, too, but I don't have any answers.
<godbyk> jcisio: if it doesn't correct itself, you might ask in #launchpad. they're typically quite helpful (and respond pretty quickly).
<c7p> goodbye
<godbyk> Goodbye, c7p
<jcisio> thanks for advice, godbyk
<IlyaHaykinson> ok, gnite
<nisshh> night
<dutchie> godbyk-android: i am now
<dutchie> but your proper self appears to have split :(
<dutchie> godbyk: back now
<godbyk> hey, dutchie.
<godbyk> what was I talking about when I pinged you? :)
<dutchie> translations?
<dutchie> branches
<dutchie> 08:58:27 < godbyk> c7p: Yeah, if you previously had the second edition branch, you'll want to delete that and use the new one.
<dutchie> 09:01:03 < godbyk> dutchie: you around?
<dutchie> you can try to remember while i have a shower
<godbyk> ah, I think I was going to ask you about how we should handle selecting translation editors.
<godbyk> not urgent. go shower. :)
<topo> hello
<ubuntujenkins> hello topo
<topo> trying to build the greek translation everything worked besides the indexing
<ubuntujenkins> topo: I think godbyk is having fun trying to sort out translated indexes
<topo> seems like that changing in the makefile the line texindy -L ....
<topo> to: XINDY -c UTF8 -m TEXINDY -l ....
<topo> does the job
<topo> (oops, i pressed the caps lock)
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk: ^
<ubuntujenkins> I have no advnaced latex knowledge I am afraid
<godbyk> topo: Yeah, that's what I was trying to do here.
<godbyk> And then it yelled at my about not having the utf-8 encoding files or something odd
<topo> actually the only warnings where about marginpars and overfull boxes
<Surst> Hello :)
<Surst> I've got a question, concerning the builds:
<Surst> how often are they updated? daily?
<dutchie> when godbyk gets round to doing it, iirc
<Surst> ok, thank you :)
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk: ping
 * ubuntujenkins has joined all the uds channels there is so many
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: pong
<ubuntujenkins> hello godbyk can you look at man dh_installtex please . I am trying to work out what line i should add to the ccicons package so that it updates the ccicons font it latex. I am told this is the way to do it. I thought you may be able to shine some light on it or have a good idea
<godbyk> sure, lemme look
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: it looks like you want something like "dh_installtex map=Map,foo.map"
<godbyk> for ccicons, it'd be dh_installtex map=Map,ccicons.map
<godbyk> (assuming I've understood the examples correctly.
<ubuntujenkins> I will have a go, I think all this managment is frying my brain
<godbyk> I don't blame you.  It's really messy.
<godbyk> Adding the debian layer in there just complicates things further
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk: nice ! this appears to work
<ubuntujenkins> thanks
<ubuntujenkins> right now to get the licence file correct
<godbyk> Hey, dutchie, any idea why so many translated strings are being marked as 'suggested'?  I've had a few reports of this.
<ubuntujenkins> there was an e-mail on the list about it again
<dutchie> godbyk: no idea
<dutchie> something to do with permissions, i think
<godbyk> permissions of what?
<dutchie> the translations
<godbyk> in launchpad?
<dutchie> yes
<godbyk> what would've changed?
<dutchie> could easily have been there all along
<godbyk> the reports I've seen are that a whole heap of previously translated and accepted strings are now flagged as suggestions instead.
<dutchie> oh
<godbyk> A Vietnamese translator popped in here earlier today/yesterday complaining about it. And now an Asturian translator has posted a similar story to the mailing list.
<dutchie> hmm
<dutchie> i'm currently doing about 15 things at once (for a change), mind asking in #launchpad?
<godbyk> I'd like to figure out what the story is so we've at least got something to tell the translators other than, 'I dunno.' :)
<godbyk> Sure, I'll give it a shot.
<godbyk> Thanks, dutchie.
<ubuntujenkins> ok just to be 100% sure line 109 of http://paste.ubuntu.com/430211/ does mean that i cna make a package of it and distribute it?
<ubuntujenkins> also is this the same licence "Creative Commons Attribution 3.0 Unported license" that we are using?
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: It's the LPPL, not the CC license we're using.
<godbyk> You can redistribute the ccicons package freely, yes.
<godbyk> The only stipulation with the LPPL, really, is that if you modify what the ccicons package does, you must rename it to avoid confusion.
<ubuntujenkins> ccicons is under tow licences, I was pretty sure i could distrbute it always like to check
<godbyk> in our case, we're distributing the ccicons package unmodified.
<godbyk> ah, gotcha.
 * ubuntujenkins man ccicons failed building in launchpad http://launchpadlibrarian.net/48086211/buildlog_ubuntu-lucid-i386.ccicons_0.0.0~20100507ubuntu1_FAILEDTOBUILD.txt.gz
<ubuntujenkins> I put the line in the wrong place
<ubuntujenkins> why do we need inkscape to compile the manual?
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: it's not specifically to compile the manual, but to do on-the-fly conversions from svg to pdf for the title page.
<ubuntujenkins> Thats what i thought, thanks
<ubuntujenkins> dutchie: how much do you know about debian rules files?
<ubuntujenkins> or anyone here ^
<dutchie> they're just Makefiles :)
<ubuntujenkins> *make files
<ubuntujenkins> :P
<ChrisWoollard> godbyk: Heeeeelllllllllppppppppp......!!!!!!!!!!
<godbyk> ChrisWoollard: what's up?
<dutchie> ubuntujenkins: http://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ch-source.html#s-debianrules
<dutchie> ubuntujenkins: learn how to write Makefiles, skill for life :)
<ChrisWoollard> I was looking at the build log for en_gb
<ubuntujenkins> thanks dutchie, another thing to learn then :)
<ChrisWoollard> apparently there is an error where terminal is not defined in the glossary.
<ChrisWoollard> I went into translations and searched for terminal.  https://translations.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/lucid-e1/+pots/ubuntu-manual/en_GB/+translate?batch=10&show=all&search=terminal
<ChrisWoollard> In the search it shows that line / paragraph 18 has not been translated. however none of the other screens indicate that there are any outstanding translations.
<ChrisWoollard> ANy ideas?
<ChrisWoollard> See. I didn't break anything
<godbyk> let me build it here real quick and see what the errors are.
<ChrisWoollard> I wonder why it is telling me that some stuff hasn't been translated in one place but not another.
<godbyk> ChrisWoollard: It looks like the newer translation I have downloaded is compiling fine.
<godbyk> I'll update the builds page soon.
<ChrisWoollard> So what you are saying is that the builds page is out of date?
<godbyk> Well, the builds page was updated using revision 832.  I've since downloaded newer translations to my computer (which will be 833 once I've committed them).
<godbyk> The builds page only gets updated when I manually run a script.
<godbyk> So there's a lag between the translations as they are in Launchpad and the PDFs/logs are they are on the builds page.
<ChrisWoollard> So do you also have any idea why on the above launchpad link that line 18 is listed as not translated but on https://translations.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/lucid-e1/+pots/ubuntu-manual there are no outstanding translations?
<godbyk> I have don't know about that, sorry.
<godbyk> I've posed the following on #launchpad a bit earlier, though and haven't received a response yet:
<godbyk> <godbyk> I've had some reports recently from our translators that a number of strings have been flagged as 'needs review'.  It seems this change happened overnight.  Do you know what's happened?
<godbyk> <godbyk> http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2010/05/08/%23ubuntu-manual.html#t10:14
<godbyk> <godbyk> https://lists.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/msg01692.html
<ChrisWoollard> hmmm. So what  you are saying that there is some unexplained weirdness occuring.
<godbyk> Apparently.
<godbyk> Unfortunately, it seems that with translations, there is often unexplained weirdness happening.  (Or, at least, *I* can't explain it.)
<ChrisWoollard> Call Mulder and Scully
<godbyk> The only change I've made recently was to remove the existing lucid-e2 branch and replace it with a fresh copy.  But I don't know why/how that would affect the lucid-e1 translations that everyone is working on.
<godbyk> No doubt.
<Daker> hello everbody
<Daker> every*
<godbyk> I chalk most of it up to my ignorance of the whole translation process (both inside and outside Launchpad).
<godbyk> hey, Daker
 * ubuntujenkins arrggh the packages got rejected
<ChrisWoollard> Never mind then. Thanks for your help.
<godbyk> ChrisWoollard: Or lack thereof. ;-)
<godbyk> ChrisWoollard: If I hear anything from the launchpad folks, I'll post it to the mailing list.
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: why'd they get rejected now?
<ubuntujenkins> mostly my fault forgot to add my e-mail address and forgot to bump the version number up all my fault
<ubuntujenkins> I should know about those by now
<dutchie> ubuntujenkins: try doing dch -i
<ubuntujenkins> dutchie: I know :) what I ment was that i should know that i should have to do that :P
<ubuntujenkins> thanks anyway
<godbyk> ChrisWoollard: I've pulled the latest translations from launchpad and am rebuilding all the PDFs now.
<godbyk> It will take about 30 minutes for them to finish building and upload, I think.
<ChrisWoollard> Ok
<ChrisWoollard> I have just noticed that https://translations.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/lucid-e1/+translations now says that there are now 947 outstanding translations
 * ubuntujenkins arrgh debian rules file again
<ChrisWoollard> Where have they all gone?
<ubuntujenkins> ChrisWoollard: WHAT! they were there this morning
<ubuntujenkins> seriously what has happend this is crazy
<ChrisWoollard> I know.
<godbyk> I don't know.
<godbyk> I haven't yet received a respond in #launchpad.
<ubuntujenkins> its the same as the others they have become suggestions by them selves
<ChrisWoollard> That is weird
<Daker> crasy o.O
<ChrisWoollard> Please fix it. I don't want to have to go though all 947 again.
<godbyk> I will if I can.
<ChrisWoollard> Maybe I should just go to bed, pretend nothing happened and that everything is ok.
<godbyk> :)
 * ubuntujenkins how can a dummy package that has nothing in it to fail 
<ubuntujenkins> *fail
<godbyk> Latest builds are up: http://builds.ubuntu-manual.org/
<ubuntujenkins> all caused by missing comma's
<godbyk> stupid commas.
<ubuntujenkins> hopefully the dummy package will build .
<ubuntujenkins> just ccicons make file to fix
<ChrisWoollard> Doh..... The latest build has now gone from 100% complete to 47% complete.
 * ubuntujenkins theres a build que :(
<ubuntujenkins> *queue
#ubuntu-manual 2010-05-09
<ubuntujenkins> well the dummy package built, how ever ccicons failed again
<ubuntujenkins> I think it will try and fix it tomorrow night all
<ubuntujenkins> well its already morning here
<daker> godbyk, i imported translations from lp
<godbyk> daker: for the website?
<daker> yes
<godbyk> k
<IlyaHaykinson> godbyk: ping
<ubuntujenkins> morning all
<synergetic> morning ubuntujenkins ^_^
<thorwil> morning * :)
<ubuntujenkins> hello people are wake today
<ubuntujenkins> *awake
<jcisio> hello all
<jcisio> wake up?
<jcisio> not a good sign: 1169 untranslated yesterday became 1463 untranslated + 300 need reviews, now it is 1463 untranslated + 180 need reviews
<jcisio> where have they gone? !!
<jcisio> waiting for a day more, thus, #launchpad seems not very active
<ubuntujenkins> jcisio: we are trying our best tor work out what is wrong. #launchpad is usually very good
<ubuntujenkins> *to
<jcisio> sure I know ubuntujenkins
<jcisio> just see that it is not good timing, and UDS comes close
<jcisio> nice weekend all, bb
<Daker> godbyk, any reponse from launchpad ?
<godbyk> daker: No response yet. I just re-broadcast my request for help. We'll see if anyone's around yet.
<godbyk> I think most the launchpad folks are en route to Belgium at the moment.
<godbyk> wgrant responded yesterday from an airport, but he said he doesn't know much about the translation part of Launchpad, so he couldn't help.
<daker> humphreybc too ?
<godbyk> Yep, humpreybc is on his way to Belgium right now.
<dutchie> humphrebc has arrived
<godbyk> Oh, has he?
<ubuntujenkins> yep
<godbyk> He IMed me when he got on the plane, but I haven't heard from him since.
<dutchie> http://twitter.com/humphreybc/status/13663010067
<godbyk> Cool.  I haven't checked my twitter feed yet today.
<dutchie> you haven't updated it in a while
<dutchie> as in 6 months
<dutchie> :)
<godbyk> heh.. yeah, I don't really tweet.
<godbyk> I don't blog much either.
<godbyk> I should write more. :)
<synergetic> godbyk: the reason i switched to twitter was because my family were worried i'd died because i stopped blogging. twitter is lazy blogging, only takes a couple seconds.
<godbyk> I'm going to get a glass of water and then sort through all these UDS sessions and figure out which ones I should attend (remotely) and when I can actually sleep.
<godbyk> synergetic: That's true. I have trouble compressing my thoughts into 140 characters.  My IRC messages are often longer than that! ;-)
<synergetic> the only thing that makes me post at all is to let my family overseas know what i'm up to
<godbyk> My friends do tend to panic when they see I've been offline for a day or more, though.
<synergetic> godbyk: ah, but it forces you to revise until you are able to explain yourself succinctly
<synergetic> which is REALLY good practice
<godbyk> And my mother discovered Skype last week.  Not a particularly good thing for me. :)
<synergetic> once upon a time you had telegrams and you had to get to the point. these are modern day public telegrams ^_^
<godbyk> synergetic: True, though I suspect in most cases it causes people to instead simply dismiss the thought of posting anything of substance.
<synergetic> ooooh tough. why my mum discovered instant messenger, she'd message me, then again less than 30 seconds later "are you there???" and less than 5 minutes later she'd be typing caps lock about how i'm ignoring her and don't i want to talk to her
<synergetic> when i was in the other room cooking dinner or something
<godbyk> synergetic: Almost! If you had to pay per tweet, there'd be a lot less noise and I'd be more likely to read my twitter feed more than once a week.
<dutchie> i've heard twitter called the UDP of social media
<godbyk> Ha! My mom does that with phone calls, though I've weened her off of that.  Now she's discovered Skype (with the webcam, no less!), so she's calling all the time again.
<synergetic> yeah. well. i have friends who follow me but who i don't follow because they tweet too much. and i'd tell them that i wasn't going to follow them for that reason and to not take it personally
<godbyk> dutchie: So true!
<daker> godbyk, i closed the website's translations
<daker> https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/lucid-e1/+pots/ubu-man-website-translations
<synergetic> mm yeah. my mum does'nt call me very much. but thank you for reminding me, it's mother's day! i should call her!
<godbyk> daker: That closed the manual's translations, too.
<daker> ah o.O
<godbyk> I spoke to my mom yesterday.  She asked me (again) about Netflix and Hulu.
<daker> i just set it for the website template
<godbyk> Oh, and scanners.
<godbyk> daker: it affects the entire series, apparently.
<godbyk> daker: https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/
<daker> should i set it as Open ?
<godbyk> I think it was Structured before.
<daker> https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/lucid-e1/+templates
<daker> now it's inactive
<godbyk> daker: Okay.  You may want to email the list and let them know that if they want to translate the website to go to https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual-website
<daker> oki
<godbyk> Hey, dutchie: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/+bug/577739
<dutchie> i blame l[p
<dutchie> -[
<quickshotdevs> dutchie: Error: Missing "]".  You may want to quote your arguments with double quotes in order to prevent extra brackets from being evaluated as nested commands.
<dutchie> hmm
<godbyk> I'm guessing it's po4a that should set it.
<godbyk> but I'm not really sure.
<dutchie> po4a has set Project-Id-Version containing PACKAGE and VERSION
 * godbyk installs gtranslator
<synergetic> godbyk: my mum just keeps telling me that skype is broken - so i have to (over the phone) walk through how to fix it. and then it works and then she "breaks" the same way the next time. it's humourous to a point, but only to a point. skype needs a manual.
<ubuntujenkins> how does she break skype?
<godbyk> I think lots of things need manuals.  I share the sentiments as a lot of the people mentioned in that article you linked me to.
 * godbyk gives up on gtranslator because the interface is so absolutely miserable.
<synergetic> she breaks it by switching into the phone tab rather than the skype tab - so she keeps trying to call my mobile phone rather than skype
<synergetic> i because it's still a big greet CALL button so she doesn't notice the change
<ubuntujenkins> are I see
<synergetic> one says CALL PHONE and the other just says CALL so i'm not surprised she gets confused
<ubuntujenkins> makes sense
<synergetic> but she doesn't have skype credit so she gets upset that skype won't let her call
<synergetic> godbyk: my grandfather buys the manual for everything. it's really funny because he's got just stacks of books on how to use windows, how to use google, how to use a digital camera, everything.
<synergetic> and he just pores over them - i can't switch him to ubuntu until there's a comprehensive manual
<dutchie> aha :)
<godbyk> synergetic: Ah, yeah. I have a grandfather who's the same way.  Unfortunately, most of the manuals he buys are absolutely abysmal.
<synergetic> godbyk: oh, they ARE horrible, i've had a thumb through them. but he's so damned independent that he won't ask me or my brother for suggestions
<synergetic> he'll just get whatever comes up first on amazon
<ubuntujenkins> has the skype gui been made open yet?
<godbyk> Ugh.  My grandmother (on the other side of my family) is using Ubuntu. She hasn't had too many issues, but I never hear from her when she has problems.
<godbyk> I have to hear from other family members that she was complaining that this or that wasn't working.
<godbyk> I've finally got my mom trained that I'll help her with her Ubuntu issues, but she's on her own with her Windows problems (as I haven't used it in so long, I don't know the answers anymore).
<synergetic> yeah. only person in my family who uses linux is me - my dad is stopped by the skypephone he has which has windows-only drivers but he gives CDs to everyone
<synergetic> my mum refuses to switch because she's had XP since it was new and she doesn't want to learn something new when what she's got serves her fine
<godbyk> I have my mother, grandmother, and brother using it. (Though my brother doesn't use his computer at all at the moment.)
<synergetic> and my grandfather is determined to having the newest version of whatever MS produce, because that's what most people use
<godbyk> My mom has a netbook with windows on it, too, now.
<godbyk> I got those family members to switch because I told them that while I was happy to help with with any linux issues they had, I couldn't help them with windows problems anymore.
<synergetic> yeah. my brother did ubuntu for a month or so but then went back to windows for his games
<godbyk> Needless to say, there's been a drastic reduction in support calls over the past couple years. :)
<synergetic> that's i think why my family don't ask me about computers - because i just tell them to switch to ubuntu.
<synergetic> ^_^
<godbyk> Games! My other brother, who would otherwise probably like linux, has stuck with windows solely because he plays so many games.
<synergetic> exactly
<godbyk> And my two sisters are using windows because they have to run software for school and work that's windows-only.
<synergetic> ah! the mum of one of my old flatmates got her a 10" netbook, put ubuntu NBR on it for her, set it up so she could quickly get to email and internet
<synergetic> she was over the moon, because it was such a simple interface
<godbyk> nice!
<godbyk> I haven't played with ubuntu unr yet, but the idea of it appeals to me.
<synergetic> it's easier to give people who've really used computers much ubuntu to start with - it's the people who use windows just because that's what they've always used that're hard to convert
<synergetic> i'm using NBR with the computer i'm on just now (EeePC901) and it's absolutely fabulous
<godbyk> Agreed.
<godbyk> Usually I've had those folks switch to Ubuntu when they're having so many issues with Windows.
<synergetic> my bf uses NBR on his media computer because it's easy to see from a distance
<godbyk> And usually they just need Internet a and email.
<synergetic> yeah - i switched to kubuntu because i'd had so many issues with windows, then switched to ubuntu when they went to KDE4 - i really hate KDE4
<godbyk> I used to use KDE eons ago, but there were so many preferences and options scattered all over the place.  I came back to GNOME.
<godbyk> I haven't tried KDE4.
<synergetic> the friends i convert at uni switch because they use open office anyway and then they can also get things like Xournal and can more easily get at things on campus through SSH and FTP
<godbyk> Cool.
<synergetic> uhm. i know there was some talk about wanting to do quick getting-started guides - i have a bi-fold flier i made for an install day last year if it would help the cause any
<synergetic> i should have it kicking around here -somewhere-
<godbyk> Cool.  Yeah, I'm not sure what all humphreybc has in mind for those.
<godbyk> I think we're also going to try to work with the learning team on some of that material, too.
<synergetic> cool. it's a PDF if there's anywhere you guys put communal documents? or i can just put it in my dropbox public folder or something in the meantime
<synergetic> maybe for inspiration if nothing else, somewhere to start from?
<godbyk> we don't have a repository yet for it, but if you'd like to put it in your dropbox or email it to me <kevin@ubuntu-manual.org> I can put it up someplace.
<synergetic> righto ^_^
<synergetic> godbyk: took two tries but i sent it >.< touchpad fail
 * ubuntujenkins succes ccicons has built
<godbyk> synergetic: received it. thanks!
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: awesome! how are the other packages doing?
<ubuntujenkins> I am unistalling everything to work out what gets pulled in but is not in the ppa.That way i can wok out what else i need to add to the ppa for pre lucid ubuntu
<ubuntujenkins> I think we will have a ppa by next week end easily
<godbyk> cool
<c7p> hello
<godbyk> Hey, c7p
<ubuntujenkins> hello c7p
<daker> godbyk, someone want to join https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-manual-website/+member/xuacusk8
<godbyk> daker: okay
<godbyk> daker: He's the Asturian translation editor.
<daker> godbyk, try to see that https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual-website/trunk/+lang/fr
<daker> there are 2 templates
<daker> ????!!!
<godbyk> I see two templates, yeah.
<daker> there is only one pot file in the branch
<godbyk> daker: there are two:
<godbyk> ./test/includes/languages/ubu_man_website_translations.pot
<godbyk> ./main/includes/languages/ubu_man_website_translations.pot
<daker> ah
<daker> how to remove the first one ?
<daker> https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual-website/trunk/+lang/fr
<daker> should i remove the pot file ?
<godbyk> I think removing the pot file would do it, but I'm not sure.
<godbyk> remember that our current live site is the test/ directory.
<daker> i will remove the one in the main folder
<godbyk> okay
<ubuntujenkins> who has lucid with no latex/texlive installed? I would like some other testers for the ppa
<godbyk> my lucid box has the upstream TL2009 installed.
<ubuntujenkins> I might do an install on my external disk to test
<dutchie> virtual machine?
<ubuntujenkins> they are always slow, but that may mean that i can do work at the same time.
<daker> godbyk, i can't setup the Priority
<daker> https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual-website/trunk/+templates
<godbyk> daker: what do you want to set it to?
<godbyk> the inactive translation has 0 priority, and the other translation has priority 1.
<daker> yes that's enough ?
<godbyk> Probably.
<godbyk> I think the priorities only matter in relation to the other translations for that project.
<daker> Wow the branch history files is big than the website it self
<ubuntujenkins> what has anyone listened to todays full circle podcast? they said we released a quick start guide
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: yeah, I noticed. maybe the docs team released something?
<ubuntujenkins> I am not aware of the doc team releasing something like that.
<godbyk> neither am I
<ubuntujenkins> for the dummy package ubuntu-manual-tex do we want bzr as a dependency? That way people have it so they can pull the branch. Or it is not relevant to the latex stuff and we don't want it. The two arguments thoughts godbyk ?
<godbyk> hmm..
<godbyk> maybe have the -tex package depend only on tex-related stuff
<godbyk> we could have another dummy package for our tools like bzr, I guess.
<ubuntujenkins> that was more my thoughts but what other tools do we need?
<dutchie> po4a
<ubuntujenkins> thats need to make the manual so i put it in the -tex dummy package
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk: I am right in thinking this suggests i am missing a font? http://paste.ubuntu.com/430607
<ubuntujenkins> I can't find anything in synaptic called pzdr or pzd
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: well, it means that tex can't find it.
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: it comes from the zapfding package, I think.
<godbyk> or the collection-fontsrecommended collection of packages.
<ubuntujenkins> I am trying texlive-fonts-recomended
<ubuntujenkins> yey as soon as i add texlive-fonts-recomended to the dummy package we have lucid package support
<godbyk> cool
<ubuntujenkins> I should at it to a ppa under the project rather than under my name
<godbyk> yeah, that'd probably be better.
<godbyk> I assume you have access/rights to do so?
<ubuntujenkins> there is only one way to find out
<ubuntujenkins> hmm well i can't make a new ppa the existing one is called ppa:ubuntu-manual/beginnersmanual . I need a team admin to make a new one
<ubuntujenkins> I can delete the ppa that is there but not make one by the looks of it
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: let me see what I can do
<godbyk> where would I go to create a ppa?
<ubuntujenkins> on this page https://edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-manual under the existing ppa there should be an "add ppa option" I think ben is the only one who can
<ubuntujenkins> he appears to be the only group admin
<godbyk> Should I just re-enable the Ubuntu Manual PPA that's there?
<ubuntujenkins> I can do that but the name of is "beginnersmanual" is that ok for the tex stuff
<godbyk> ew.
<godbyk> nah.
<godbyk> there are other admins, though.
<ubuntujenkins> excactly
<godbyk> looks like it doesn't include me, however.
<godbyk> dutchie: you around?
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk: look at https://edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-manual/+members and click the status heading only ben is admin
<dutchie> godbyk: yes?
<godbyk> dutchie: hook me up with some admin rights on the https://edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-manual/+members and/or help us set up a new ppa
<ubuntujenkins> dutchie: are you able to make a new ppa on https://edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-manual ?
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: he's just the the only admin on that page.
<godbyk> it's only sorting that single page of the list.
<ubuntujenkins> are makes sense
<dutchie> hmm
<dutchie> can't work out how to adminify people
<ubuntujenkins> dutchie: on the page https://edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-manual/+members you should see a yellow circle with a ! click that and you can change it then
<dutchie> https://edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-manual/+member/godbyk
<ubuntujenkins> i can't view it
<godbyk> from here: https://help.launchpad.net/Teams/CreatingAndRunning it sounds like only owners can make admins.
<godbyk> heh.. I can't view that page either.
<godbyk> Now I want to know what it says about me! :)
<ubuntujenkins> once we have a ppa I have made a script to transfer the packages
<ubuntujenkins> dutchie: are you able to make a ppa please?
<dutchie> sure
<ubuntujenkins> what should we call it?
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk: ^
<godbyk> what all is going to be in the ppa?
<ubuntujenkins> same stuff as in https://edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntujenkins/+archive/ubuntu-manual/+packages and anything needed for earlier versions of ubuntu
<godbyk> should we just call it ubuntu-manual and put all our packages in there?  what are the benefits of having multiple PPAs?
<dutchie> still needs a name
<ubuntujenkins> We could have a release ppa and a daily build one if we wished
<dutchie> and a display name
<godbyk> how about ubuntu-manual for the release versions of stuff and ubuntu-manual-daily for the daily builds of things?
<ubuntujenkins> what about the tex stuff? I am not building that daily
<ubuntujenkins> put that in ubtuntu-manual
<godbyk> yeah, just drop that in ubuntu-manual, I'd think.
<godbyk> unless you think it should be segregated into its own ppa.
<dutchie> and the display name?
<godbyk> Ubuntu Manual Releases and Ubuntu Manual Daily Builds?
<ubuntujenkins> Ubuntu Manual Releases is fine don't worry about dailies yet
<godbyk> sounds like a plan.
<ubuntujenkins> we have nothing for the dailies
<godbyk> I figure we can always change it up later if we really need to
<godbyk> yeah, nothing for dailies yet.
<ubuntujenkins> yep
<godbyk> though I could start building daily PDFs.
<godbyk> not sure if it'd be helpful for anyone or not.
<ubuntujenkins> not helpfull untill i have made the ubuntu-manual program
<dutchie> https://edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-manual/+archive/ubuntu-manual
<ubuntujenkins> thansk dutchie
<dutchie> np
<ubuntujenkins> and i am able to upload stuff to it
<godbyk> cool
<ubuntujenkins> how are we going to promote / suggest the ppa?
<ubuntujenkins> I should mail the list i assume
<ubuntujenkins> hey SunK how are you?
<godbyk> I'd mail the list and have a couple people test it out.
<ubuntujenkins> what is the correct way to remove upstream tex if they have it?
<godbyk> I've been just suggesting 'apt-get remove texlive-*' but that leaves behind a few things in packages named otherwise.
<godbyk> shouldn't our packages have larger version numbers, so it'd just be an upgrade?
<ubuntujenkins> I ment the one the website curently suggests. I will double check but it think i set the version numbers higher.
<dutchie> there is a thing on ppa versioning
<ubuntujenkins> *the way of instaling tex that the website suggests
<dutchie> https://help.launchpad.net/Packaging/PPA/BuildingASourcePackage#versioning
<ubuntujenkins> ok i need to change the version numbers
<ubuntujenkins> I finish my matlab then i will fix it
<IlyaHaykinson> ping godbyk
<godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: pong
<IlyaHaykinson> i wanted to start the discussion about file formats for maverick
<godbyk> sure
<IlyaHaykinson> i've been looking at DocBook, and i think it could do everything we need, especially if we greatly limit the subset of allowed tags
<IlyaHaykinson> from there, we can write a converter into our LaTeX commands
<IlyaHaykinson> for the web site, we can make the system manipulate a database of docbook snippets
<godbyk> be with you in just a moment.
<IlyaHaykinson> ok
<godbyk> skyping with the parents.
<godbyk> :-/
<godbyk> (still on skype) daker forwarded this link to me the other day: http://doc-book.sourceforge.net/homepage/
<godbyk> okay, off skype now.
<IlyaHaykinson> brt
<godbyk> I think the docbook wiki site looks like what we want (heavily modified, of course)
<godbyk> we'd need to give it a UI overhaul, change it so the wiki is more moderated
<godbyk> but it stores the underlying data in docbook format.
<godbyk> you might also look at mallard: http://projectmallard.org/
<godbyk> that's what the gnome docs are headed to.
<godbyk> in any case, I think we will want an online GUI editor so that no one has to mess with the underlying markup language.
<daker> tinymce ?
<godbyk> http://tinymce.moxiecode.com/
<godbyk> I'll look at it.
<godbyk> brb
<godbyk> back now.
<IlyaHaykinson> am back
<daker> godbyk, what about tinymce ?
<godbyk> daker: How does it store the text? html?
<daker> there 2 choices plain text(with tags) or html
<daker> are*
<godbyk> we'd have to modify it to use some custom tags, too.
<godbyk> (for screenshots, for instance.)
<daker> we can
<IlyaHaykinson> i think mallard is a little more immature than docbook, which has a lot more semantic markup possibilities
<godbyk> Once we have an idea of what we're doing, I think we're going to have to get some more people to help with this new website.  daker may go crazy trying to do it all by himself. :)
<godbyk> mallard is younger than docbook, that's for sure.
<daker> godbyk, :D
<godbyk> but since all the gnome docs (and presumably the ubuntu docs) are headed that direction, if it's robust enough for our needs, it would make interoperability a bit easier.
<ubuntujenkins> which one are the docs team are using? mallard or docbook?
<IlyaHaykinson> most gnome docs are in docbook though
<godbyk> (though it would hopefully not be too difficult to translate the mallard xml to and from the docbook xml)
<IlyaHaykinson> for example, here's evolution: http://svn.gnome.org/viewvc/evolution/trunk/help/C/evolution.xml?revision=37459&view=markup
<godbyk> well, mallard is what yelp will be using.
<godbyk> so when you go to System > Help and Support.. that stuff will (eventually) be mallard-based.
<IlyaHaykinson> and mallard claims to specifically be for topic-oriented (non-linear) help
<godbyk> yeah, that's true.
<IlyaHaykinson> honestly, mallard seems like it's not much better than authoring in a subset of HTML
<IlyaHaykinson> there are very few tags, which means that the semantic meaning is often lost
<godbyk> fair enough.
<IlyaHaykinson> whereas authoring in docbook appears to be more complex because of the hundreds of tags, but on the other hand carries over a lot of meaning
<godbyk> does docbook handle everything we need?
<IlyaHaykinson> so far as far as i can see, yes.
<godbyk> okay.
<IlyaHaykinson> maybe except for screenshotTODO
<IlyaHaykinson> and not sure about todo itself
<godbyk> surely it's not too difficult to add tags...
<IlyaHaykinson> but it even has markup equivalent to \menu{foo\thenbar}
<godbyk> nice.
<IlyaHaykinson> well, adding tags -- of course not hard. though if possible, we should strive to stick with the standard
<godbyk> if we use docbook as our base, we'll need to make sure we have great tools to hide that underlying markup.
<IlyaHaykinson> i think a lot of it could be hidden by allowing text->docbook transformation
<godbyk> so we have some control over the tags used (for consistency) and make it as easy as possible for people to write and edit content without getting caught up in all the markup.
<godbyk> going from docbook to tex is easy enough.. an xslt could do that.
<IlyaHaykinson> yeah; writing markup is certainly not as friendly as writing LaTeX, even
<godbyk> we'll just have to add in an editing step on the generated .tex file to make sure everything looks great typographically.
<godbyk> (though that step is already there.
<IlyaHaykinson> nod.
<godbyk> I did it with the english version
<godbyk> and we're going to have to do it for the translated versions, too.)
<shrini> team
<shrini> need help
<shrini> how to work on translating the website?
<godbyk> Hey, shrini. What's up?
<shrini> godbyk: hi
<shrini> how are you?
<shrini> took so long to hang here
<shrini> :-)
<godbyk> shrini: Head over to https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual-website, select your language.
<IlyaHaykinson> godbyk: there's a question of storage, too; one way is to have each "page" on the site be a file in bazaar; we'd allow editing on a per-paragraph basis (<para> in docbook) and just make the change directly to the underlying xml file
<IlyaHaykinson> then queue up the change for review
<IlyaHaykinson> another option is to have a database of paragraph / step snippets
<godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: I think we may want to have a database sitting in the someplace to assist with searching/indexing.
<IlyaHaykinson> and have _all_ work use this system, perhaps generating a complete xml file as a result
<godbyk> right.
<shrini> godbyk: thanks
<IlyaHaykinson> the downside, though, is that when authoring we'd need a lot more tools
<shrini> got it
<IlyaHaykinson> to allow writing multiple paragraphs at once
<godbyk> shrini: no problem. let us know if you have any other questions or run into problems.
<thorwil> godbyk: do you have experience with xslt?
<shrini> sure godbyk. thanks a lot
<godbyk> thorwil: a tiny, tiny bit.
<godbyk> thorwil: at this point, I'd have to relearn it all, I think. it's been quite a while.
<shrini> got my brother to work on translating to tamil
<shrini> he finished exams
<godbyk> shrini: awesome!
<IlyaHaykinson> i've done a bunch of xslt work a while ago too...
<IlyaHaykinson> been ~4 years though, probably
<godbyk> wow.. it's probably been about that long for me, too.
<thorwil> ok. otherwise i would have to warn you that xslt is a ... thing of its own
<godbyk> all my transforms were pretty simple, too, as I recall.
 * godbyk makes a note that thorwil is now the resident xslt expert.
<IlyaHaykinson> meh. i was doing transforms from XML into a text-based EDI data format (ANSI 837), yuck.
<godbyk> oh, <gag>
<thorwil> godbyk: i only looked at it long enough to become frustrated
<godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: I think the database-backend approach may give us more benefits, and we can always generate xml files from that.
<godbyk> File backends almost never turn out to be a good idea.
<godbyk> especially when they're as linear as xml is.
<IlyaHaykinson> yes, though we would need to then accommodate a lot of different types of data
<IlyaHaykinson> i.e. paragraphs, lists of steps
<IlyaHaykinson> where each would be a stored unit
<IlyaHaykinson> i suppose each could then be a unit of translation, too
<godbyk> right.
<godbyk> if we had our own translation stuff, we wouldn't have to worry about launchpad's shortcomings (just our own).
<godbyk> but it'd allow us to do nicer string manipulations (comparisons, parsing, etc.)
<thorwil_> we should use a unit tested no-sql distributed cloud storage solution with an enterprise level object-node mapper with a collaborative realtime editing ajay/comet low-latency frontend
<godbyk> thorwil_: Whatever, Mr. XSLT!
<thorwil_> lol
<IlyaHaykinson> we could just use pootle
<IlyaHaykinson> especially so if we write the new system on top of Django or something like that
<godbyk> Something fancy we could do fairly easily: Pull all the translated strings from the software we're documenting.  When a translator is working on the section about F-Spot, for instance, we could auto-translate the \menu, \button, and other GUI elements using the strings from the F-Spot translations.
<godbyk> yeah, pootle looks fairly comparable to launchpad's translations stuff.
<IlyaHaykinson> nifty idea.
<IlyaHaykinson> thorwil_: true, could use a nosql store, though perhaps then we'd lose some of the indexing / searching approaches
<godbyk> instead of suggesting paragraphs at a time, we could actually do sentence segmentation and suggest each sentence. this would help when we, say, combine two paragraphs into one para.
<IlyaHaykinson> that said, both mongodb and couchdb have some indexing support
<IlyaHaykinson> i think paragraphs are more logical units, though.
<godbyk> we could also show the diff between the suggested fuzzy string's source and the source of the current to-be-translated string, so the translator can see what change she'd have to make in her translation.
<thorwil_> IlyaHaykinson: it was just a buzz word collection :/
<IlyaHaykinson> there are so many sentences...
<IlyaHaykinson> thorwil_: ;-)
<godbyk> I think paragraphs are a good unit, yes.
<godbyk> the sentence segmentation is primarily to help with fuzzy translation string matching.
<IlyaHaykinson> well, we could just segment out things that are marked up
<godbyk> to reduce the amount of time the translators spend retranslating nearly identical text over and over again
<thorwil_> sentences are not useful as unit when it comes to translations
<IlyaHaykinson> i.e. menu names would be in some sort of <menu> tags.
<godbyk> it sucks that they currently have to retranslate the entire paragraph when we, say, add or remove a single comma.
<IlyaHaykinson> well, we could add change detection.
<godbyk> yeah.
<IlyaHaykinson> so that if it's a minor change, we don't flag the para for retranslation
<IlyaHaykinson> perhaps merely for review
<godbyk> basically, any small thing we can do to help the translators would go a long way.
<IlyaHaykinson> also, we would match units within the paragraph
<godbyk> and highlight the change, so it's obvious.
<godbyk> yes, that's what I was referring to with the sentence-segmentation talk.
<IlyaHaykinson> so if the text is "....<menu>blah</menu>..." then the <menu> could have an id attribute
<IlyaHaykinson> and then we would auto-translate those based on the previous translation
<thorwil_> it's rather obvious what you could do to ease translations, but it gets very complicated regarding implementation soon
<IlyaHaykinson> but i think this could work at the para level, not just sentences
<godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: I agree.
<godbyk> thorwil_: perhaps. but anything worth doing is complicated. :)
<godbyk> In general, software should be a heck of a lot smarter than it currently is.
<godbyk> As programmers, we too often take the easy way out.
<godbyk> Sometimes citing lack of information/data to make the right decision (instead present an option to the user).
<godbyk> Sometimes just claiming it's too hard or it'll take too long.
<godbyk> But in the end, it all results in the same thing: dumb software.
<dutchie> godbyk's suddenly come over all philosophical
<godbyk> </suspends rant>
<thorwil_> godbyk: my fingers are itching to have a go with smalltalk/seaside or scala/lift, but what i have in mind would be a job for 2 or 3 competent developers, at least
<godbyk> I hear ya.
<godbyk> I think if we're setting out to do this thing, we'd best do it well.
<godbyk> Otherwise, we'll be just another website with documentation on it.
<thorwil_> and all the technological choices that look good to me also cut out a lot of people who would run with php, rails or django
<godbyk> Aside from failing to attract contributors (developers, editors, authors, translators, et al.), it's also *boring*. :)
<IlyaHaykinson> i wouldn't mind having a go with it being in, say, django.
<IlyaHaykinson> though yes, a scala-based system could be nifty
<godbyk> thorwil_: We're also currently hampered a bit by my web host. We can't do anything CPU intensive. And any non-standard software means I have to compile it myself and let it reside in my home directory. (I don't have root access.)
<godbyk> It we start getting too crazy, we'll need to find another hosting solution.
<thorwil_> vserver at least :/
<godbyk> Right.
<godbyk> I'm willing to manage a vserver, but we'd have to figure out how to pay hosting fees.
<IlyaHaykinson> i don't think this would be too big of a problem
<IlyaHaykinson> i have a machine we could use, for some time at the very least
<godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: duly noted.
<thorwil_> one can have one for very few euros/month, but i have no clue about actual needs (cpu/ram/space)
<IlyaHaykinson> datacenter hosted; a bit old but usable.
<IlyaHaykinson> and it's a phyiscal box
<IlyaHaykinson> physical, even
<godbyk> nice!
<godbyk> So are we fairly convinced that docbook is the way to go for the underlying markup of the master doc?
<IlyaHaykinson> also, after benjamin builds connections with the ubuntu folks, he should be able to swing us a canonical-owned server or something like that
<thorwil_> godbyk: i think that if xml is of advantage, docbook is the way
<godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: That'd be quite nice.
<IlyaHaykinson> i think so far, docbook seems the best
<godbyk> Sounds like a plan then.
<godbyk> So what's next?
<ubuntujenkins> apt-get install doc-book
<ubuntujenkins> :)
<godbyk> heh
<ubuntujenkins> not sure thats the right name
<godbyk> no hyphen
<godbyk> and there are a ton of docbook* packages.
<godbyk> oh, cute. there's a docbookwiki package, too.
<ubuntujenkins> theres no docbook-full
 * thorwil_ goes back to drawing
<ubuntujenkins> hmm so how do we write docbook? I only learnt latex since starting the project
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: well, docbook is somewhat akin to html.
<godbyk> but more semantic markup.
<ubuntujenkins> I don't think i will get time to help write this release but I would like to know how to do it so that i can help others
<IlyaHaykinson> http://svn.gnome.org/viewvc/evolution/trunk/help/C/evolution.xml?revision=37459&view=markup
<IlyaHaykinson> as an example of a complete manual in docbook
<IlyaHaykinson> http://www.docbook.org/tdg5/en/html/ch02.html for a more structured introduction
<ubuntujenkins> wow that looks harder to lean than latex would our translators have to learn it?
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: that's why we're gonna have to write a web-based editor that hides all the markup and has pretty buttons to click on.
<godbyk> kinda like: http://tinymce.moxiecode.com/examples/full.php
<godbyk> but with semantic markup instead of low-level formatting.
<ubuntujenkins> sounds good to me i wasn't really reading irc much
 * ubuntujenkins hmm I have just filled our ppa to its limit
<godbyk> uh oh
<godbyk> didn't they just increase the limits the other day, too? :)
<ubuntujenkins> its all good, I will just remove them and then add them from my ppa.
<ubuntujenkins> its they way that i am changing the version number that is causing it
 * ubuntujenkins now to wait untill my package deletion request is done
<IlyaHaykinson> actually i'm not sure we need to write a web editor
<IlyaHaykinson> i think we can allow just text-bsaed entry
<IlyaHaykinson> be back in an hour
<IlyaHaykinson> godbyk: ping
<godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: pong
<IlyaHaykinson> to continue the discussion about docbook...
<godbyk> sure
<IlyaHaykinson> i think we have two different modes of editing
<IlyaHaykinson> one is for writing lots of content (the style of writing/editing we had for lucid-e1)
<IlyaHaykinson> one is for making corrections on the website, typically one para at a time
<daker> the second one is better i think
<IlyaHaykinson> well, i think both are necessary
<IlyaHaykinson> at different times.
<godbyk> Right.
<IlyaHaykinson> if we have small units on which we allow people to work (paragraphs for example), we allow the second use case.
<IlyaHaykinson> but make the first one rather tough
<IlyaHaykinson> because then we need the ability to insert, append, prepend sections
<IlyaHaykinson> and to select section types
<IlyaHaykinson> and rearrange sections
<IlyaHaykinson> etc.
<godbyk> Yep
<IlyaHaykinson> and every long piece of text becomes a pain to write
<IlyaHaykinson> on the other hand, if you treat the entire document as one big unit
<godbyk> For writing content, it should be a free-form editor that allows for multiple paragraphs.
<godbyk> The finer details and translations can be handled per paragraph, I think.
<IlyaHaykinson> then writing lots of text becomes easy, but smaller scale editing is a (text processing) pain
<IlyaHaykinson> so how about this...
<IlyaHaykinson> we store data at the paragraph (or other similarly sized section) level
<IlyaHaykinson> but we allow a one-time import of large amounts of text which we parse into paragraph units
<dutchie> we'd probably also need a high level interface for shifting content around
<IlyaHaykinson> right, and then provide some ability to rearrange stuff
<dutchie> and modify sections/chapters
<IlyaHaykinson> and also a way to replace several paragraphs at once with another larger-file reimport
<godbyk> That sounds like it'd work, IlyaHaykinson
<IlyaHaykinson> we'll likely need a few different types of "units"
<IlyaHaykinson> paragraphs, steps, screenshots, terminal examples
<IlyaHaykinson> so ok. next problem.
<IlyaHaykinson> i think it's way over-ambitious to create a tinymce-like editor for docbook
<IlyaHaykinson> i'd just come out and say that it won't happen.
<IlyaHaykinson> so, what about a slightly-content-aware plain text editor
<IlyaHaykinson> so basically, let's say you're editing a paragraph that looks like the following:
<dutchie> we have enough over-ambition on this team ;)
<IlyaHaykinson> "abc def <menu>File<submenu>Save</submenu></menu> ghi jkl"
<IlyaHaykinson> when you try to edit it, we just show you "abc def File Save ghi jkl"
<godbyk> I looked at the TinyMCE and they do have something that allows it to output bbcode in addition to html.
<IlyaHaykinson> then, we look at what you've changed. if you change things before or after the <menu> nodes, then we allow the change to go through
<godbyk> So it may be easy to have it dump docbook, too.
<godbyk> I'm not sure.
<IlyaHaykinson> if you change File or Save then we match up the tokens to the original ones
<IlyaHaykinson> if we can
<IlyaHaykinson> and if we don't know what happened, we turn it into plain text
<IlyaHaykinson> _BUT_, at the same time, each change is stored as a revision
<godbyk> that gets a bit tricky, because then we have to track things like' should this empty element exist? or did they mean to remove it?
<IlyaHaykinson> right.
<IlyaHaykinson> but we provide a level of perceived risk with each changeset
<godbyk> here's the tinymce bbcode example: http://tinymce.moxiecode.com/examples/example_09.php#
<IlyaHaykinson> so let's say we know for sure that "abc" changed to "zzz" but nothing else got touched
<IlyaHaykinson> in that case, we allow the change to take place
<godbyk> I'll have to download the tinymce code and look at it to see how easy/hard it'd be to bend it to our will.
<IlyaHaykinson> however, if the change affected the original layout, we mark it as high risk and require docbook-level recoding
<godbyk> so have human-editor intervention?
<IlyaHaykinson> well, the thing is, i don't know if we should allow "the public" to write pure docbook code
<godbyk> for handling markup?
<IlyaHaykinson> i would rather take changes that have no markup
<IlyaHaykinson> and re-mark it up
<IlyaHaykinson> or, as i was suggesting, apply some smarts and in some cases re-mark it up automatically if we can be sure that the changes didn't affect the markup
<godbyk> if they can't do it easily (gui/wysiwyg), then yeah, it's probably better if a human editor intervenes with the docbook markup
<IlyaHaykinson> right.
<IlyaHaykinson> and we can always allow an option, while editing, to edit the raw markup code (for those who know it)
<IlyaHaykinson> this way the general public can submit changes without knowing any of the complexity of docbook
<IlyaHaykinson> which is the biggest problem with docbook, imho.
<godbyk> I agree.
<IlyaHaykinson> (there are so many tags that while semantic knowledge is retained, human editing becomes tough)
<godbyk> that's why I was hoping to avoid docbook for as long as possible. :)
<IlyaHaykinson> nod. but if we can make two rules
<IlyaHaykinson> 1) we only use a subset of docbook as per a style guide, and
<IlyaHaykinson> 2) mere mortals (non-UMP members) are not expected to know docbook
<IlyaHaykinson> then i think we'll be able to use the full power of docbook
<IlyaHaykinson> without incurring the cost of complexity for casual editors
<IlyaHaykinson> over time, as we have more development time, maybe we can allow some super-simple markup in the editor
<IlyaHaykinson> but initially we'd just take raw text
<godbyk> that sounds like a plan.
<godbyk> I've looked at the bbcode plugin for tinymce
<godbyk> and it's just doing a find/replace on the generated html to convert it to bbcode tags.
<IlyaHaykinson> nod. i figured it'd be something like that.
<IlyaHaykinson> tinymce is really oriented at HTML, from what i can see
<godbyk> I'll also have to look at how easy/difficult it'd be to add our own semantic markup buttons to the editor.
<godbyk> yeah, it is.
<IlyaHaykinson> ok, let me put together a quick document of this idea -- i'll mail something out later tonight
<IlyaHaykinson> i think we can make it work.
<godbyk> okay, sounds good.
<godbyk> I think we should definitely jump in and get started on this stuff -- especially if we're going to try to pull it off in time for maverick.
<godbyk> something else I'd like to see in our editor (plain text or otherwise) is some as-you-type checks against our style guide rules.
<godbyk> check for spelling, grammar, usage, etc. as much as possible.
<IlyaHaykinson> well, perhaps instead of as-you-type, just at <Submit> time or whatnot
<IlyaHaykinson> i.e. a quick check once you send the snippet to the backend
<godbyk> Does anyone know, the UDS schedule (for example: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-m/track/community/) -- are those times UTC or Belgium local?
<godbyk> Sure.
<godbyk> Just something that can be done at the time of editing/writing.
<godbyk> So we can avoid revisiting that text if possible.
<IlyaHaykinson> i'm sure they're local. brussels is UTC+2, so otherwise the sessions would start at 7am
<IlyaHaykinson> er, 11am.
<godbyk> That's what I figured.
<godbyk> well, this week will be fun for me, then, I guess. :)
<IlyaHaykinson> you're going to stay up to participate by irc?
<godbyk> I'm gonna try.
<IlyaHaykinson> i don't think they have live streaming...
<godbyk> There are a few sessions I want to hit up.
<godbyk> I thought they were supposed to have live streaming.
<ubuntujenkins> I think that they have live streaming icecast.ubuntu.com iirc
<godbyk> Some UX sessions and some sessions related to the manual (docs and translators).
<ubuntujenkins> I don't think i can make many due to lots of lectures and tones of uni work :(
<dutchie> AHA
<dutchie> i know what happened to the translations
<ubuntujenkins> what?
<godbyk> dutchie: do tell!
<dutchie> the translation focus got set to lucid-e2 a little while back, and they must have been done on that
<godbyk> what?!
<dutchie> then when I switched it back to lucid-e1, they didn't get backported
<dutchie> or they did, but only as suggestinos
<ubuntujenkins> +1 to godbyk
<quickshotdevs> Factoid '1 to godbyk' not found
<dutchie> don't know how it happened
<dutchie> i was looking at them for some reaso
<daker> ubuntujenkins, the link doesn't work
<godbyk> weird.
<godbyk> I wonder how/when it got switched to lucid-e2.
<godbyk> most of the translators reported that the flood of suggestions occurred just a day or two ago.
<godbyk> when did you change the focus back to e1, dutchie?
<dutchie> week or two ago
<dutchie> hmm
<dutchie> maybe it's not
<dutchie> :(
<ubuntujenkins> daker: I just rememberd that I don't actually know it have a look on the wiki somewhere
<godbyk> (Getting more hate mail from translators.)
<ubuntujenkins> yep seen it
<godbyk> I haven't got a useful response on #launchpad yet.
<godbyk> wgrant wrote me back and said he didn't know anything about the translation side of launchpad.
<godbyk> other than that, no responses.
<godbyk> The translations look really messed up right now: https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual
<godbyk> Sort by status.
<godbyk> I think there used to be a lot more of them that were farther along than that previously.
<ubuntujenkins> I think that it would be easier to paste the po file in etherpad and have the translators translate in that
<ubuntujenkins> I would agree with that godbyk
<godbyk> wtf?
<godbyk> this is getting frustrating.
<godbyk> I'll ping #launchpad with our problem again, but I'm not holding my breath.
<dutchie> stupid uds
<dutchie> anyway, i have an early morning
<dutchie> night
<godbyk> We should send humpreybc out to track the launchpad guys down and demand answers.
<godbyk> g'night, dutchie
<ubuntujenkins> night dutchie
<daker> godbyk, yes
<IlyaHaykinson> godbyk:  i'm going to work on a doc to describe the docbook proposal; do you want to try to craft a mini-sample of some short chapter (or other section) from our current manual in docbook format?
<IlyaHaykinson> it may help to have an example
<godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: I can try, yeah.
<IlyaHaykinson> if you have time, that'd be awesome.
<godbyk> I'm just glancing through the pootle site right now... Wondering if we wouldn't be better off cutting our losses and migrating translations to our own installation of that or something.
<IlyaHaykinson> i looked at pootle earlier. seemed like it can totally do our work.
<IlyaHaykinson> the creative commons uses it
<IlyaHaykinson> http://translate.creativecommons.org/
<godbyk> cool
<godbyk> the interface looks nice
<godbyk> I think it'll take a bit of time to get it set up properly.
<godbyk> What would we lose by ditching Launchpad for translations?
<IlyaHaykinson> auth
<godbyk> Less tightly-integrated bzr?
<godbyk> auth
<godbyk> karma
<IlyaHaykinson> yeah, but, well, screw karma
<godbyk> shared strings with other projects (though we don't have any of those, I bet)
<IlyaHaykinson> if it means getting rid of these headaches
<godbyk> no doubt
<IlyaHaykinson> hm, well, we can always query launchpad for other translations
<IlyaHaykinson> we just couldn't be a source for them
<IlyaHaykinson> but, well, neither is any of the gnome stuff
<godbyk> shared strings isn't much of an argument as I could probably seed those strings for pootle anyway
<IlyaHaykinson> nod
<godbyk> all right.  I'll add that to my list of things to look into this week, I guess.
<godbyk> lemme see if I can find the docbook tags and whatnot and convert some tex for ya
<IlyaHaykinson> http://www.docbook.org/tdg5/en/html/ch02.html is a good start
<godbyk> thanks
<godbyk> I have entirely too many windows open.
<godbyk> I think I'm going to cheat and just create a couple more workspaces. :)
<godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: are you wanting just some interior text or do you want the document structure and stuff, too?
<IlyaHaykinson> more the text, i think
<daker> IlyaHaykinson, http://www.writingopensource.com/forums/tech-and-tools/online-docbook-editor
<daker> https://edit.php.net/
<daker> here is the branch http://cvs.php.net/viewvc.cgi/doc-editor/
<IlyaHaykinson> nod. looks unmaintained though
<godbyk> oh, daker: we can probably remove the vrac mirror now that things have settled down.  we can add it back in later if we need to.
<daker> oki
<xuacu> hi!
<ubuntujenkins> hello xuacu
<IlyaHaykinson> alright, gtg, bbl
<ubuntujenkins> night IlyaHaykinson
<ubuntujenkins> night all
#ubuntu-manual 2011-05-02
* godbyk changed the topic of #ubuntu-manual to: Ubuntu Manual Project discussion | Style Guide: http://files.ubuntu-manual.org/style-guide.pdf | Website: http://ubuntu-manual.org | Launchpad: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual | IRC logs: http://irclogs.ubuntu.com
<Captainkrtek> hello
<godbyk> Hey, Captainkrtek.
<Captainkrtek> just got all setup with the ubuntu-manual, wondering how I can help :-)
<godbyk> Captainkrtek: Cool. There are a number of different ways you can help.
<Captainkrtek> havent used tex before
<godbyk> We're finishing up proofreading the maverick edition.
<Captainkrtek> oh cool
<godbyk> We need to get that finished in the next two weeks so we can publish it.
<Captainkrtek> I'd be glad to help in any way
<godbyk> We've also started work on the Natty edition.
<Captainkrtek> I have experience with natty as well
<Captainkrtek> currently been writing docs and editing on the ubuntu-docs team
<godbyk> We could use your help as an author, an editor, a programmer, or in other various ways.
<godbyk> Take your pick! :)
<Captainkrtek> I could be an editor, and possibly a programmer (depends on what is needed) :-)
<godbyk> If you'd like to get started immediately, you can dive in and help copyedit the maverick edition.  We're in bug-hunting mode there.
<Captainkrtek> sure! I need a quick rundown though, I followed the author setup
<Captainkrtek> Have tex installed, and bzr branched the ubuntu-manual
<godbyk> As a programming: if you know Python, you could help out with Quickshot.  If you know LaTeX or Docbook or things along those lines, I can come up with some work for you.
<godbyk> Okay, great!
<Captainkrtek> hmm not too familiar with those languages, more C, C#, and a bit of Java
<godbyk> If you have TeX Live installed and you've branched the maverick repository, have you tried building the PDF yet?
<Captainkrtek> No I haven't and im not sure I have maverick
<godbyk> I can walk you through the process and help you get things set up, if you like.
<Captainkrtek> yes I'd appreciate that, thanks :)
<godbyk> Sure!
<Captainkrtek> so right now, I have all of tex installed
<Captainkrtek> and this branch bzr branch lp:ubuntu-manual
<godbyk> If you open a terminal and change into the directory where you checked out the manual repository, we can see which branch you have.
<Captainkrtek> okay
<Captainkrtek> there
<godbyk> If you run 'bzr info' it should tell you what the parent branch is.
<godbyk> Does it end in 'maverick'?
<Captainkrtek> nope
<Captainkrtek> ill pastebin it
<godbyk> Okay.
<Captainkrtek> http://paste.ubuntu.com/602040/
<godbyk> Okay, that should be the maverick edition, then.
<Captainkrtek> k
<godbyk> Have you run the install-pkgs.sh script yet?
<Captainkrtek> yes
<Captainkrtek> all checked out
<godbyk> Perfect.
<godbyk> Go ahead and run 'make'.
<godbyk> It should compile the PDF.
<Captainkrtek> let me just verify real quick
<Captainkrtek> yup all good
<godbyk> It may take a few minutes.
<Captainkrtek> can I make multiple jobs?
<Captainkrtek> like compiling a kernel
<godbyk> Not in this one.
<Captainkrtek> oh okay
<godbyk> It's all one giant job.
<Captainkrtek> aww my 6 cores have nothing to do ;-)
<godbyk> Yeah, it's a fairly linear process, I'm afraid.
<Captainkrtek> K done
<Captainkrtek>  Success!  Wrote 164 pages
<godbyk> Now you can run 'evince main.pdf' and you should see the manual.
<Captainkrtek> very cool
<Captainkrtek> Getting started with ubuntu 10.10
<godbyk> Right now we're reading through the manual and fixing any typos or other bugs.
<Captainkrtek> cool
<Captainkrtek> I have experience with Q&A
<Captainkrtek> QA*
<godbyk> If you find a bug, you can just edit the appropriate .tex file, save it, and commit the changes to the bzr repository.
<godbyk> Are you familiar with bzr?
<Captainkrtek> yes I use bzr a bit
<Captainkrtek> never used tex before though
<godbyk> TeX isn't too bad.  You might find the style guide handy: <http://files.ubuntu-manual.org/style-guide.pdf>
<godbyk> It gives a quick introduction to using LaTeX and shows you the syntax of all the commands we're using.
<godbyk> If you have any LaTeX-related questions, feel free to ask me.
<Captainkrtek> ahh cool
<Captainkrtek> thanks :)
<godbyk> Otherwise, it sounds like you're all set!
<godbyk> Have fun editing the manual and thanks for your help!
<Captainkrtek> thanks for the help! :)
<godbyk> Again, feel free to ask me if you hit any snags or have any questions.
<Captainkrtek> will do!
<Captainkrtek> have to finish an essay real quick, after that I'll get to work
<godbyk> No problem.
<godbyk> :)
<godbyk> Hey, thorwil. Have you taken a look at the test with the narrower screenshots? What are your thoughts?
<thorwil> godbyk: looks ok on screen, but didn't compare with the other
<godbyk> 'kay. Figured I'd ping you for your opinion while I saw you here. :)
#ubuntu-manual 2011-05-03
<Captainkrtek> hey godbyk
<godbyk> Hey, Captainkrtek. How goes it?
<Captainkrtek> pretty good, you
<godbyk> Not too bad.
<Captainkrtek> hold on my keyboard is messed up
<Captainkrtek> there
<Captainkrtek> was stuck on num lock which was messing with all the keys
<Captainkrtek> going to take a peek at the manual today, see if I can contribute anything :)
<Captainkrtek> had a few questions for you though
<godbyk> cool
<godbyk> Fire away.
<Captainkrtek> how does commiting work?
<Captainkrtek> is it straight to repo
<Captainkrtek> or do I file a bug and link to the diffs I made
<godbyk> Yeah, just commit it straight to the repository.
<Captainkrtek> ahh cool
<godbyk> Make sure that you run 'make' first so you know you haven't introduced any syntax errors, though.
<Captainkrtek> also to edit a file in tex...
<Captainkrtek> is it just
<Captainkrtek> tex file.tex?
<godbyk> Just open the .tex file in your favorite text editor.
<Captainkrtek> ahh cool
<Captainkrtek> and then when I commit, I just commit the .tex file
<godbyk> Yep.
<Captainkrtek> neat :)
<Captainkrtek> also bringing another friend onboard to help as well
<godbyk> cool
<Captainkrtek> thanks for all your help :)
<godbyk> No problem.
<godbyk> I have to run off to another meeting now, but I should be back later.
<godbyk> Feel free to leave any questions here and I can respond when I get back.  You can also email the mailing list for help, too.
<Captainkrtek> okay thanks :)
<godbyk> Captainkrtek: Back now. :)
<Captainkrtek> hey!
<Captainkrtek> Just did a huge doc. for #ubuntu-docs
<Captainkrtek> going to make some food then come to the manual
<Captainkrtek> brb
<godbyk> 'kay.
<Captainkrtek> okay Im back
<godbyk> 'kay.
<Captainkrtek> time to find some bugs!
<Captainkrtek> godbyk, question, when making the pdf I get these messages
<Captainkrtek>  Overfull \hbox (4.16705pt too wide) in paragraph at lines 132--133
<Captainkrtek> \EU1/LinuxLibertineO(0)/m/n/10 Ask Ubuntu is a free community driven Question a
<Captainkrtek> nd Answer website for Ubuntu
<godbyk> Those are okay.
<Captainkrtek> okay
<Captainkrtek> godbyk, any sections that need more attention?
<godbyk> Captainkrtek: I think it's pretty much hit and miss.
<Captainkrtek> godbyk, just submitted my first commit :)
<Captainkrtek> although I need to re-commit, found one typo :P
<Captainkrtek> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-manual/ubuntu-manual/maverick/revision/121
<Captainkrtek> see 122 as well
<godbyk> In r121 I think that "slowly and methodically" was better as it was (before your change).
<Captainkrtek> okay
<Captainkrtek> feel free to change it
<godbyk> Also, quotation marks in LaTeX are like ``this'' not "this".
<godbyk> I wouldn't use quotes around 'clean', either. It's kind of odd.
<Captainkrtek> okay
<godbyk> I'd have to look at the context for your mention of VLC, but in general, we try to focus on the default applications.
<godbyk> Otherwise, your edits look pretty good so far.
<Captainkrtek> I saw VLC mentioned somewhere else
<Captainkrtek> check the index
<Captainkrtek> page 107 I think
<godbyk> Yeah, I know it's mentioned elsewhere. That's why I said I'd have to look at the context.
<Captainkrtek> yeah
<Captainkrtek> we mention VLC in the Ubuntu Docs
<godbyk> (The diff I'm looking at doesn't provide enough context to make a judgment.)
<Captainkrtek> cause it supports so many codecs
<Captainkrtek> k
<Captainkrtek> godbyk, Ill try to make my edits better next time
<godbyk> Captainkrtek: No worries. Just some constructive criticism. It takes a while to learn the LaTeX syntax and get a feel for the style and voice we're trying to achieve.
<Captainkrtek> godbyk, exactly, I appreciate the support, feel free to remove all my changes if you wish ;-)
<Captainkrtek> I'm off to bed, thanks godbyk
<godbyk> G'night, Captainkrtek.
<issyl0> You'll notice now in commits that I'm no longer "issyl0", but my full name.
<issyl0> :-)
<godbyk> issyl0: Cool.
<issyl0> I thought that'd be easier.
<godbyk> Probably.  Also, thanks for adding your full name to the credits.  I don't think Chris knew what your last name was when he added you.
<issyl0> That's fine.  :-)
<issyl0> Probably because in the past I'd hidden it due to paranoia.  :P
<issyl0> I've given up now.
<thorwil> just because you give up on paranoia doesn't mean they are not after you!
#ubuntu-manual 2011-05-05
<daker> weeee we have an etherpad http://pad.ubuntu.com/
<UndiFineD> Accessibility Review (Guidelines: Stanca Act)
<UndiFineD> Known Problems(33)Likely Problems (4)Potential Problems (136)HTML Validation (65)CSS Validation (39)
<UndiFineD> Accessibility Review (Guidelines: WCAG 2.0 (Level AAA))
<UndiFineD> Known Problems(63)Likely Problems (1)Potential Problems (248)HTML Validation (65)CSS Validation (39)
<UndiFineD> daker, the pad could use some work ;)
<daker> ã
<UndiFineD> http://achecker.ca/checker/index.php
<UndiFineD> that is the checker
#ubuntu-manual 2011-05-08
<piratemurray> hi there everyone!
<piratemurray> i have a quick question if anyone could help
<piratemurray> i'm a bit new to bazaar. i have a version of the UMP on my hard drive from a while ago, but i'm wondering how to update this to the latest version
<piratemurray> i'm familiar with SVN and (don't laugh) clearcase where i can do an update
<piratemurray> is there an equivalent in bzr speak?
#ubuntu-manual 2012-04-30
<tomswartz07> hey guys. i have a bit of an emergency, and I would like some advice
<tomswartz07> my (just upgraded) 12.04 machine ran out of space on the / partition, and now I cant even use aptitude to free up space.
<tomswartz07> any ideas on how to clear up a bit of room to get my machine working again?
<tomswartz07> im afraid to even reboot, as it may lock out X from starting
<godbyk> tomswartz07: You can delete everything in /var/cache/apt/archives.  It contains the deb files that apt-get downloads.
<tomswartz07> godbyk: i sorted it. its a LightDM logfile that took over my partition. 160G of logfiles. piece of junk
<godbyk> tomswartz07: Wow!
<godbyk> Where does it keep the logs?  /var/log?
<tomswartz07> ill say!
<tomswartz07> yep, /var/log/upstart/lightdm.log and /var/log/lightdm/lightdm.log
<tomswartz07> both were pushing 80G each
<godbyk> Strange. What was in the logs?
<tomswartz07> LightDM "failed to get connection from VNC socket: Error accepting connection: too many open files"?
<tomswartz07> about 10 billion times
<tomswartz07> anywho. i sorted it, now im back down to a mild 45% / usage
<godbyk> tomswartz07: Strange.  I thought syslog automatically ellided duplicate messages when they were being printed frequently (to prevent the logs from growing so large).
<godbyk> That's good to hear.
<godbyk> Glad you got everything running again.
<tomswartz07> phew, i was worried there for a bit!
<tomswartz07> anyway, to manual business; whats the author deadline?
<godbyk> Here's the schedule I proposed:
<godbyk> May 31 â First draft completed: authors have updated and written new content; screenshots are in place.
<godbyk> June 15 â Editors have edited and proofread content.
<godbyk> June 22 â Release a draft for public comment and proofreading for one week.  Incorporate changes as they are suggested.
<godbyk> June 27 â Final draft is complete and all last-minute changes have been made.
<godbyk> June 30 â The final PDF is released on our website and printed copies can be purchased via lulu.com.
<godbyk> I haven't heard anyone protest that timeline, so I'll add the milestones to Launchpad.
<tomswartz07> very nice! okay.
<tomswartz07> i was very briefly re-reading my sections and it appears I dont have much to update
<tomswartz07> some title and wording, but not much work at all! Is that the case with others?
<godbyk> I think it's fairly hit and miss. Most sections require only a little work.
<godbyk> Some other sections require more work.
<godbyk> But I don't think there's much work to do overall (compared to some previous versions).
<tomswartz07> right.
<tomswartz07> are we still allowing latex edits via bzr?
<tomswartz07> i missed the last meeting where it was likely discussed. regrets.
<godbyk> Yep!
<godbyk> No worries.
<godbyk> Yeah, LaTeX editing via bzr is still the primary method.
<godbyk> For those who aren't interested in learning LaTeX, etc., we'll accept them to send plain text to the editors so they can handle the markup.
<tomswartz07> excellent. I very much prefer doing it right in LaTeX- much quicker that way.
<tomswartz07> what version of LaTeX are we using? the standard TeX2011 from before? or a new default package?
<godbyk> tomswartz07: I'd stick with the upstream TeX Live still.
<godbyk> I think Debian is repackaging everything, but I don't think they've finished yet.
<godbyk> You can update all your TeX Live packages by running 'sudo tlmgr update --all' if you like.
<godbyk> (They update the packages rather frequently.)
<godbyk> Okay, milestones are on Launchpad now. https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/precise
<tomswartz07> hm. okay. any notion to the version? i have arch on my main work bok. if not, i can use my ubuntu server
<godbyk> tomswartz07: Well, it's TeX Live 2011 still (from tug.org). They'll release 2012 in a few months.
<godbyk> tomswartz07: But the 2011 Debian packages that are in the Ubuntu repositories are still broken as far as I know.
<tomswartz07> heh. they always have to change things, dont they? :P
<tomswartz07> ok. Ill use our installer to get up and running again. Im excited to get back into things!
<godbyk> Yeah, I'm hoping that Debian gets the new TeX packages sorted out. I'll be nice when we can start using stuff from the repository again.
<godbyk> (Though I'll likely keep using the upstream versions because I like to have the latest LaTeX packages.)
<tomswartz07> alrighty- im off to bed! hey, it was good chatting with you!
<tomswartz07> thanks for the hard work on the milestones!
<godbyk> No problem. Have a good night!
<hannie> hello herat
<herat> hannie: hi
<hannie> herat, started writing already?
<herat> hannie: yes
<hannie> good
<hannie> sagaci, hi, are you an author too?
<herat> hannie: Thanks for all the guidelines. They were quite useful.
<hannie> herat, yes it was a combined effort, John, Kevin and me
<sagaci> hannie, I've started working on the listening to music chapter
<hannie> sagaci, ok, if you have any questions, ping me
#ubuntu-manual 2012-05-01
<tisqueldotim> I'm looking for this .... any one here ? http://omgubuntu.co.uk/2010/02/ubuntu-manual-alpha-released-gets-new-name-chapters-more/
<sagaci> what about it?
<tisqueldotim> sagaci, I'm looking for thia manual ,finnished , or one just like it , that's all . thanx.
<sagaci> tisqueldotim: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/lucid-e2/edition-2/+download/Getting%20Started%20with%20Ubuntu%2010.04%20-%20Second%20Edition.pdf
 * nisshh peeps into the channel
<nisshh> godbyk, poke
<nisshh> is it just me or has texlive gotten way bigger?
<nisshh> i seem to remember there being only about 1500 objects to download 0.o
<nisshh> now i see nearly 2500
<nisshh> yo herat
<nisshh> need any editing done on your chapter?
<herat> nisshh: hi. yes i think so.
<nisshh> ok
<nisshh> point me at it ;)
<nisshh> also, dont pull the latest commits just yet
<nisshh> im fixing some bugs
<herat> ok
<nisshh> wont be a minute
<nisshh> ok, give it a sec, then pull
<nisshh> herat, ^^
<herat> nisshh: yes sure
<nisshh> you should get r16
<nisshh> with a make that isnt broken ;)
<nisshh> herat, which chapter is yours btw?
<herat> nisshh:  Using software center. i think file which i pushed was properly written latex. I compiled on my machin. Did it break during make?
<herat> *machine
<nisshh> eh, sorry, wasnt your changes that broke it, it was my fault ;)
<herat> ok :)
<nisshh> i made some changes and had to fix a few up for make to work
<nisshh> ;)
<nisshh> sssh, dont tell godbyk ;)
<herat> :)
<nisshh> ok
<nisshh> lets have a look
<nisshh> ill just do a quick run over to look for grammar, etc
<nisshh> kinda nearly midnight here ;)
<herat> ohh... you must be working very hard. :) burning midnight oil.
<nisshh> heh
<nisshh> i work full timre
<nisshh> 45 hours a week
<nisshh> mainly why i havent been committing changes for the last few cycles ;)
<herat> ok. I work full time too but 48 hours a week. ;)
<nisshh> you win :)
<nisshh> ok
<nisshh> ive had a look the diff and logs
<nisshh> nothing i can spot
<nisshh> couple of places i would add some latex commands, but other than that
<nisshh> herat, also, my average overtime per fortnight is around 15 hours
<herat> ohh here we do not have overtime system. We work each saturday though. :(
<nisshh> ah ok
<nisshh> overtime is great i reckon
<nisshh> i get double pay
<herat> that is nice.
<nisshh> helps to have an awesome job too i guess
<tisqueldotim> can anyone solve this problem for me ?? http://dl.dropbox.com/u/55128914/ebay%20claim%20256GB%20SSD%20HDD.AVI
<tisqueldotim> sorry wrong node !
#ubuntu-manual 2012-05-04
<hannie> godbyk, ping
<sagaci> hi hannie
<sagaci> it was good that you recovered those notes
<nisshh> hannie, whats up?
<hannie> hello nisshh sagaci
<hannie> nisshh, I wanted to know if we can get printed manuals for UDS
<hannie> hi herat
<herat> hannie: hi
<hannie> herat, almost finished with your chapter ;)
<sagaci> I'd only get a couple of manual printed... 140 pages worth a piece!
<nisshh> hannie, i wouldnt know sorry, thats something only godbyk could answer, my guess would be yes, though it depends on if the current master branch can be compiled into a printable pdf or not
<hannie> it is ready at lulu, but at such short notice I do not know if we can get them (UDS=May 9th)
<hannie> on time
<hannie> godbyk, is probably still in bed ;)
<herat> hannie: yes. almost finished.
<herat> I got my copy from lulu after 15 days.
<hannie> herat, let me know if you need someone to review your chapter soon
<herat> hannie: ok sure.
<hannie> herat, 15 days! that's longer than I thought. Although UDS is in the US, so maybe we can order them still
<herat> ohh yes. International shipping may be responsible for delay.
<hannie> Did you guys see my email about UDS and our manual on the mailing list?
<herat> hannie: yes. read notes on pad.
<hannie> good. You may add whatever comes to your mind
<herat> okay
#ubuntu-manual 2012-05-05
<nisshh> hey everyone
<nisshh> im doing some research into advertising the manual a whole lot more
<nisshh> especially for this next version
<nisshh> any ideas are welcome
<nisshh> also, im not accusing anyone, but if anyone is not pushing their changes to trunk on a regular basis and just keeping local copies for ages, please dont, as it breaks the branch when you push sometimes
<godbyk> Hey, nisshh. pleia2 suggested that we email <https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-news-team> with our release notices and then they can put a news item in the Ubuntu Weekly Newsletter.
<pleia2> yes, that :)
#ubuntu-manual 2012-05-06
<nisshh> godbyk, pleia2 oh, good idea, i was thinking of letting OMGUbuntu know as well
<godbyk> nisshh: That, too.  There are probably other Linux-related sites that would be interested in a press release from us as well.
<godbyk> nisshh: We can also post info to our Facebook page and on our Twitter feed.
<nisshh> oh true
#ubuntu-manual 2013-04-29
<PatrickDickey> Hi there. I was just curious as to whether the branch for saucy has been created yet or not. There are a couple of things in the Troublehsooting section that I want to start on as soon as possible (GRUB2 for one), so I was hoping the branch is there.
<CarstenG> Hi Patrick
<CarstenG> Yes, the saucy branch is already open
<CarstenG> Raring is moved from lp:ubuntu-manual to lp:ubuntu-manual/raring, and saucy is now lp:ubuntu-manual
<PatrickDickey> Ahhh thanks CarstenG. I'll have to re-run the branch command then. Thanks. :)
<PatrickDickey> I'm downloading it now, and I'll add the 06-root-directories.png file in the screenshots, since that always gets removed when it shouldn't.
<PatrickDickey> I've got it added, but there's a lock on the branch on launchpad. So, I'll try when I wake up later, as I'm guessing Kevin or Hannie still has a lock in place.
<CarstenG> oh.
<CarstenG> That was me.
<CarstenG> One moment, I will try to fix this.
<CarstenG> ok, I have done a Â»bzr break-lockÂ«
<CarstenG> It should work now.
<CarstenG> Can you try it again?
<teolemon> i was wondering whether it was possible to automate screenshots
<teolemon> by emulating keystrokes and taking keystrokes once everything is in place
<godbyk> teolemon: There are some tools to do that sort of thing, but I'm afraid we're not currently using them.
<CarstenG> Hi teolemon: I had a short conversation last week in the #ubuntu-doc channel about this topic. They have a script Â»collect-screenshots.shÂ« Maybe we can adapt this for our purpose?
<CarstenG> See http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2013/04/23/%23ubuntu-doc.html for details.
<teolemon> sylvie indeed tells me there's an outdated scropt
<teolemon> script
<CarstenG> I did not yet looked into it...
<teolemon> if we want to scale to many languages we need to find a way to make it easily editable
<CarstenG> Does she mean the same?
<teolemon> for every release
<teolemon> unsure
<teolemon> cqdf93 ?
<cqfd93> yes, teolemen
<cqfd93> teolemon
<teolemon> same script as CarstenG ?
<cqfd93> Quickshot, yes, but I've never tried it
<CarstenG> The mentioned script from the docs team is http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-doc/ubuntu-docs/raring/view/head:/collect-screenshots.sh
<teolemon> ok
<teolemon> how many screenshots to take ?
<teolemon> i'll be back in an hour or so
<cqfd93> 86, and I've already done 11 of them
<cqfd93> Starting from tomorrow, I'll be offline for a few days, but I'll be able to take more screenshots and I'll push them when I get back
<CarstenG> ok, see you all.
<CarstenG> good night.
#ubuntu-manual 2013-04-30
<PatrickDickey> teolemon: Did you ever get an answer about QuickShot? I saw you asked about it yesterday.
<PatrickDickey> teolemon: In case you didn't get the answer that you want (as i'll be leaving shortly), QuickShot is based on Quickly. But neither application has been developed for the more recent versions of Ubuntu. If you're a programmer, or want to take a shot at getting them working, I'd say to send Kevin Godby (godbyk) and email about it.
#ubuntu-manual 2013-05-01
<crhrabal> what are some chapters that need done. I'm ready to start writing
#ubuntu-manual 2013-05-02
<CarstenG> Hi at all.
<CarstenG> I just want to create the last screenshot of the German raring version.
<CarstenG> I have trouble to take figure 3.17.
<CarstenG> I want to set up that Google account, but I get always a error message Â»Applications can no longer access some of your Online Accounts. Choose Online Accounts from the user menu to reinstate access to this account.Â«
<CarstenG> Does anybody have the same problem?
<CarstenG> With Facebook, Flickr, Twitter and Windows Live I have the same problem.
#ubuntu-manual 2017-05-02
<Skippy109> hello everyone can someone please help install ubuntu 16.04-2bLTS
<Skippy109> help please
