#ubuntu-design 2011-11-28
<doctormon> AlanBell: It's good, but I have some news.
<dholbach> good morning
<AlanBell> morning dholbach
<dholbach> hi AlanBell
<AlanBell> do we know how the core design team like to collaborate?
<doctormon> AlanBell: google docs
<thorwil> well, i guess being in one place rather often and using white-boards could also be mentioned
<AlanBell> sabdfl reeled off a list of irc nicks in the last CC meeting, but I don't think there has been any comment from any of them
<AlanBell> just wondering if they would prefer mailing lists to IRC or something else?
<AlanBell> google hangouts perhaps?
<AlanBell> "<sabdfl> it feels weird to me that the ubuntu design team doesn't include johnlea, mika, oren, calum, christian, mpt..."
<AlanBell> mpt is here, the rest don't appear to be on freenode
<mainerror> sladen is here as well.
<sladen> AlanBell: FWIW, I can only see mika on the Canonical internal IRC
<sladen> AlanBell: I will poke people a little later
<AlanBell> great
<mpt> AlanBell, "oren" is oreneeshy, "calum" is ckpringle
<mpt> AlanBell, what's the "CC"?
<AlanBell> the community council
<AlanBell> http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/11/17/%23ubuntu-meeting.html#t17:04
<AlanBell> hi oreneeshy & ckpringle o/
<ckpringle> hi AlanBell
<oreneeshy> hi AlanBell
<mainerror> Oh hello. :)
<mainerror> Soo, is there already an official statement on this weeks meeting date and time?
<doctormon> mainerror: Yes, there should be in the title etc.
<shnatsel> Hi everyone! I came here following doctormon's invitation in Ubuntu Artwork mailing list.
<thorwil> hi shnatsel
<shnatsel> hi thorwil
<shnatsel> glad to meet you!
<shnatsel> oh btw, Ubuntu Studio needs some love
<shnatsel> Boot screen and login screen background, to be exact
<shnatsel> the mockups, to be even more exact
<shnatsel> I can code the plymouth myself, I already have some experience in that, e.g. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75_qyL7U2ME
<mainerror> Hello shnatsel.
<shnatsel> hello mainerror
<shnatsel> (that thing on youtube is very old though; I've learned a lot since then)
<shnatsel> thorwil: UbuntuStudio devs humbly hope that you'll come up with something for their boot and login screens
<thorwil> shnatsel: oh, will not happen.
<shnatsel> that's a pity
<shnatsel> they seem to be in the poorest state of all official derivatives :(
<shnatsel> I have to help them from time to time apart from my usual work for elementary project
<thorwil> shnatsel: because i have several things on my list that are more pressing and/or interesting. tbh i don't think this derivative should exist. not as more than a collection of (meta-) packages
<shnatsel> thorwil: they do an amazing job shipping an OOTB environment for professional sound processing
<shnatsel> thorwil: regular Ubuntu is hardly suitable for that
<doctormon> shnatsel: Do you have a good definition of what UBS needs?
<shnatsel> doctormon: I think I do. You can ask ScottL in #ubuntustudio-devel for details right now if you wish.
<doctormon> shnatsel: You should make sure you communicate with Scott how important it is to write down everythign you need in a blueprint or similar
<shnatsel> doctormon: last time I checked they needed a boot screen mockup and a background image for login screen
<doctormon> Think about a design breif.
<shnatsel> doctormon: yeah, I've already converted them to blueprints
<shnatsel> :)
<doctormon> It's no good asking designers to boldly seek out the very busy ScottL for information in his head ;-)
<shnatsel> doctormon: last time I checked they needed a boot screen mockup and a background for LightDM greeter. But yeah, good point.
<shnatsel> doctormon: thanks!
<doctormon> shnatsel: So 1 wallpaper and 1 plymouth? Do you have a link to the briefs for each of those?
<shnatsel> doctormon: for Plymouth - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Documentation/Plymouth
<shnatsel> doctormon: and examples at http://brej.org/blog/?p=238
<shnatsel> doctormon: and LightDM is expected to look similar to GDM, but nobody really knows that yet :(
<shnatsel> doctormon: like this: http://iloveubuntu.net/pictures_me/lightDM%200.9.2%20Oneiric.png
<doctormon> thorwil: This is why we need a website to host designs and projects. :-)
<thorwil> doctormon: did i miss something? i'm debugging some realtime audio software. how matching, since u-studio is the topic :}
<doctormon> thorwil: Indeed. Although I think the branding for ubuntu studio is more important that you expressed above.
<shnatsel> MediaGoblin, anyone>
<shnatsel> ?
<thorwil> shnatsel: guess who did a logo and mentioned it here? ;)
<shnatsel> thorwil: yeah, saw that on your blog :)
<shnatsel> thorwil: nice one btw
<thorwil> ty
<thorwil> gotta run, good night!
<mmiicc> AlanBell: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/11/28/ubuntu_tv/
<AlanBell> O.M.G.
<AlanBell>  /o\
<mainerror> hehe
<mainerror> The internet is serious business. :D
<shnatsel> ScottL says that he would write the exact requirements this weekend
<mainerror> doctormon: What is the status of the design team website? Do you want to wait with it until after the meeting?
<doctormon> mainerror: I want to wait until the meeting, consensus needs to be reached.
<mainerror> I see.
<doctormon> shnatsel: That sounds great, make sure he'll be specifying tone, logos and a list of don'ts.
<mainerror> I will propose the use of Trello for the design team at the meeting. I feel this could really help.
<doctormon> mainerror: Trello?
<mainerror> https://trello.com/board/general/4ec98e1965baaac84a1359e9
<mainerror> It is like a todo list but a lot better.
<mainerror> doctormon: If you give me your email address I can invite you to the design team on Trello and you can play around with it.
<doctormon> mainerror: Everyon should know my email: doctormo@ubuntu.com
<mainerror> Sent. :)
<mainerror> One day I'll get such a fancy forward email address as well. :)
<AlanBell> the ubuntu-tv mailing list is going wild
<doctormon> AlanBell: lol, WHAT DID YOU DO! ;-)
<AlanBell> it is all a bit mad
<AlanBell> however, there are lots of great ideas floating about and people are doing designs and storyboards
<doctormon> AlanBell: That's great, using Pencil or some other method?
<AlanBell> at least three are trying pencil, I think some others are doing other things
<doctormon> mainerror: Trying to use Trello, it's _really_ slow. Far too slow to actually use any of the functionality.
<doctormon> AlanBell: As you run through the ideas and methods, can you report back on your perception on whether we need a formal website or not?
<AlanBell> will do
<AlanBell> I can see a need for a few bits and bobs
#ubuntu-design 2011-11-29
<dholbach> good morning
<sladen> morning
<thorwil> morning
<sladen> guten morgen
<mainerror> Guten morgen sladen. :D
<mainerror> doctormon: Must be something with their servers. It was never slow for me.
<CrazyThinker> Was anyone here responsible for unity interface?
<AlanBell> hi CrazyThinker
<CrazyThinker> Hello AlanBell
<mainerror> AlanBell is the Ubuntu TV design. hehe
<AlanBell> so the media would have you believe
<mainerror> Kinda funny what a picture can do.
<CrazyThinker> What picture?
<AlanBell> I was mucking about with a sketching tool
<AlanBell> with the objective of helping designers use free tools
<AlanBell> and my random doodlings got picked up by OMG and the Register
<AlanBell> http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2011/11/ubuntu-smart-tv-discussions-begin-to-warm-up
<AlanBell> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/11/28/ubuntu_tv/
<mainerror> Aw crap! The meeting is tomorrow 17 UTC?
<AlanBell> http://ostatic.com/blog/work-is-underway-on-ubuntu-tv-with-mark-shuttleworth-watching argh
<mainerror> They use the old logo!
<AlanBell> fun seeing mistakes propogating in the media
<AlanBell> it is a 10 foot user interface
<AlanBell> the register said inches (because in the UK nobody knows what ' and " mean)
<AlanBell> and the 10 inch user interface is propogating with journalists having *no clue* what they are writing about
<mainerror> heh
<AlanBell> czajkowski: if the H pick it up, please don't have a 10 inch UI!
<mainerror> :D
<mhall119> lol
<doctormon> CrazyThinker: nope
<doctormon> wendar: thanks for sorting out the meeting time
<doctormon> Everyone: Wednesdays, 15:00 UTC (12pm EST), that's tomorrow
<AlanBell> doctormon: 1700 UTC
<doctormon> Thanks AlanBell
<doctormon> hows tv land?
<AlanBell> funny
<AlanBell> http://www.clubic.com/linux-os/debian/ubuntu/actualite-461456-systeme-ubuntu.html
<AlanBell> http://www.pcinpact.com/news/67315-ubuntu-tv-projet-evolution-shuttleworth.htm?vc=1
<YannDinendal> You read French news?
<AlanBell> no, but google does
<AlanBell> I can read the articles, but I found them via google
<AlanBell> and I did use Google translate but only because I am lazy
<AlanBell> I am a little embarrassed by all this lot
<nuthinking> hey guys, does anyone know who admins brainstorm.ubuntu.com ?
<YannDinendal> AlanBell: it is not the first time tech news report early concepts/discussions as if it were official/decided...
<YannDinendal> :/
<AlanBell> three storyboards now https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuTV/Designs
<AlanBell> If I knew the press would pick it up I would have done my first one a lot better
<YannDinendal> :)
<AlanBell> I have a plan for adding comment threads to the storyboards
<AlanBell> using http://www.intensedebate.com which is a bit like disqus
<AlanBell> I read a great paper yesterday by Marin Duffy
<AlanBell> http://mairin.wordpress.com/2010/04/06/contributing-to-free-open-source-software-as-a-designer/
<AlanBell> MÃ¡irÃ­n Duffy even
<doctormon> AlanBell: MO lives in Boston, here abouts. We've worked on some stuff before.
<mhall119> AlanBell: I want to play with some uTV mockups, how do I get started?
 * mhall119 already has Pencil
<AlanBell> cool mhall119
<AlanBell> http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/unitytelly/pencilfiles/ help yourself
<AlanBell> the base design frame gives you a TV and 16:9 image on it
<AlanBell> concept1.ep is my storyboard
<AlanBell> the ubuntu.zip is an export template
<mhall119> AlanBell: sweet, thanks
<AlanBell> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuTV/Designs
<mhall119> cool,thanks AlanBell
 * imnichol is away: I'm busy
 * imnichol is back (gone 00:03:16)
<sladen> btw, I just filed:  https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/897796  if people can suggestion solutions
<webbugs> Launchpad bug 897796 in Ayatana Design "Dash search sub-optimal: search for "The #1 Linux distribution" does not return expected result" [Undecided,New]
<mhall119> AlanBell: any idea how to export widget sets from Pencil?
<AlanBell> export??
<AlanBell> do you mean import?
<AlanBell> or stuff done with the stencil generator thing?
<AlanBell> either way, I have no idea, but I was looking at the file format for stencil collections
<mhall119> AlanBell: http://people.ubuntu.com/~mhall119/utv/ see if you can import the Unity.zip collection
<mhall119> btw, an extensive collection of Unity widgets for Pencil is something that would be great for all kinds of mockups
<AlanBell> no
<AlanBell> yes, I would love to have a widget for a lens, or ubuntu themed window or something
<AlanBell> Error Installing Collection
<mhall119> :/
<AlanBell> Collection specification is not found in the archive. The file may be corrupted.
<doctormon> AlanBell, mhall119: If the format is svg, can you guys pass me the raw?
<mhall119> what version of pencil are you using?
<AlanBell> doctormon: is is SVG with some wrapper metadata
<mhall119> doctormon: the widget collection is an XML
<doctormon> Great, publish the svg too
<AlanBell> mhall119: 1.3.2 installed today
<mhall119> the one I'm working on has embedded bitmap data from the unity pngs
<mhall119> AlanBell: ah, I have 1.2, probably need to upgrade
<mhall119> aw, 1.3 isn't available as standalone
<doctormon> mhall119: Embeded images?
<mhall119> doctormon: it encodes the data and puts that in the XML
<doctormon> mhall119: I see, a base64 encoding like in svg?
<AlanBell> yeah
<mhall119> doctormon: probably because I brought in bitmapped images, rather than SVGs
<AlanBell> I think it does both
<doctormon> It's just the same way svg works, I'm guessing it's all centered around it.
<doctormon> AlanBell: Does it generate multiple svg files perk work flow item?
<AlanBell> http://pencil.evolus.vn/en-US/DevGuides/DevGuideDetail.aspx?DocumentPath=devguide%2fdevguides%2fstencil-collection-structure-and-file-format
<AlanBell> the properties and behaviours stuff can do things like turning on and off the window buttons on the window template
<mainerror> Great ... I lost my backlog.
<jderose> i just did a screencast that demos what i tried to show in the design theater session at UDS but couldn't get working - http://vimeo.com/groups/novacutartistdiaries/videos/32867613
<mmiicc> jderose: is Dmedia something like Rapid Photo Donloader?
<jderose> mmiicc: hmm, i'll have to find out what Rapid Photo Downloader is and get back to you :P
<jderose> but by the name, it sounds like it has some similar goals
<jderose> although the import workflow is a pretty small part of what Dmedia does... the rest is to eliminate file management as much as possible
<jderose> mmiicc: hmm, on the import side, sound very similar - http://damonlynch.net/rapid/
<jderose> very cool, i'll have to play with it
<mmiicc> jderose: :) although RPD imports only photos and videos
<jderose> Dmedia imports all files... party so we never ignore important files just because Dmedia doesn't grok them
<jderose> mmiicc: so have you used Rapid Photo Downloader?
<mmiicc> jderose: not so much recently, but I've translated it to Polish
<jderose> nice
<mmiicc> jderose: creator of RPD is a friendly guy, so if you have any question, I think, you can discus with him :)
<jderose> cool
<jderose> i'm really happy to see something else like this, and that it's on linux
<jderose> windows and osx don't seem to have any good solutions for this, so if we have two... that's awesome :-D
<mmiicc> :)
 * mmiicc need to go to put kids to bed 
<jderose> :)
<doctormon> jderose: Any relation to the work I did?
<jderose> doctormon: no, that bit isn't... actually, been meaning to talk to you... we should really split that out of dmedia as it's not directly tied to it anway (and shouldn't be)... so it would probably get more use as a standalone project :)
<doctormon> jderose: Yeah, it's gotten no use so far, which is a shame.
<jderose> yeah :(
<jderose> sorry about that
<jderose> always is on my list, never seem to quite get to it
#ubuntu-design 2011-11-30
<mhall119> AlanBell: http://people.ubuntu.com/~mhall119/utv/index.html
<mhall119> my first attempt at a TV mockup
<mhall119> doctormon and anyone else interested ^^
<imnichol> mhall119, I like it
<doctormon> looks good
<mhall119> btw, you can install my Unity stencil collection at http://people.ubuntu.com/~mhall119/utv/Unity.zip, if you to go the "My Stuff" tab, right-click empty space and select "Import new private collection..."
<mhall119> the stencils don't contain much atm, but it has the images I used to create the launcher buttons
<mhall119> I hope it's something the ubuntu-design team can build up, as it would be useful for a great many projects
<doctormon> Sounds like a good set of resources.
<dholbach> good morning
<yaili> good morning
<mainerror> Morning.
<mainerror> mhall119: Doesn't look bad but I'm not sure if having the launcher like on a desktop is the way to go to be honest.
<mainerror> How is such a TV supposed to be controlled? Will it be controlled with a mouse and keyboard or with a remote?
<AlanBell> mhall119: very nice
<AlanBell> mainerror: do a storyboard to explain the way you want it to work!
<mainerror> I'll do that.
<AlanBell> but anyhow, the specifics of that are really more for #ubuntu-tv and that mailing list
<AlanBell> getting unity stencils available for designing stuff is great
<mhall119> mainerror: I see there being an ubuntu-button that, when pressed, moves the launcher into view and puts the selection hilight on the first item
<mhall119> you then use the up and down arrow buttons to select
<mhall119> in my mockup, there's apps for video, music, games and files
<mainerror> I see.
<mainerror> I thought about a dashboard design pattern.
<mainerror> It is nothing really new, especially on TV, I know that but it is easy and intuitive to use.
<mainerror> I'll come up with some mockups this weekend.
<AlanBell> so wendar's meeting of the design liberation front is in about 3.5 hours right?
<mainerror> Yea ... and I'm going to miss that meeting.
<doctormon> Meeting soon!
<doctormon> wendar: ping
<wendar> doctormon: pong
<doctormon> AlanBell, antdillon, ara, bwinton, cjohnston, ckpringle, CrazyThinker, czajkowski, daker, dholbach, dmj726, godbyk, gord, jasox, jfi, johnoxton, Kaleo, kholerabbi: Meeting!
<wendar> hi all
<thorwil> hi
<daker> hi
<antdillon> doctormon, hi
<AlanBell> hi
<AlanBell> feel free to use the meeting bot if you want to
 * dholbach is just about to head out - have a great meeting everyone
<oreneeshy> hi all
<jasox> hi
<doctormon> Welcome to the weekly ubuntu design meeting.
<MacSlow> hey everybody
<wendar> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Nov 30 17:01:36 2011 UTC.  The chair is wendar. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<wendar> ah, it's on, good
<doctormon> So wendar, tell us what's on the agenda this week.
<wendar> - picking a project
<wendar> - starting to sketch out the first stages
<wendar> Also, there's been lots of interesting work the past couple of weeks, so I'd like to hear a quick summary.
<doctormon> sure
<doctormon> We have some interesting investigations into Pencil, a tool for creating workflow mockups. It's a firefox extention/app.
<doctormon> mhall119 I believe has made some interesting templates for ubuntu people to use.
<doctormon> AlanBell has been leading the charge by practicing with the highly conceptual Ubuntu-TV idea.
<mhall119> doctormon: the templates for the TV are from AlanBell, I made stencils of the Unity launcher buttons
<doctormon> Thanks for the correction, resources from mhall119 and AlanBell available on request. Are they linked on the resource wiki page?
<mhall119> doctormon: on the wiki page for the TV designs, yes
<mhall119> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuTV/Designs
<doctormon> Can you guys link all your resources directly to the design-resource page, maybe under a Pencil header?
<mhall119> what's the URL for that?
<doctormon> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesignTeam/Resources
<doctormon> As well as the work with pencil, I've spent thanks giving developing an alpha Ethersketch. It's a merge of the svg-editor and etherpad-lite.
<wendar> ah, fantastic
<doctormon> So far it works and is going through it's last few turns of development, once done i'll release an alpha and people can try it out and see if real-time collab graphics is useful.
<doctormon> Also on the horizon is the decision to have a dedicated website for design work. The idea is that without a place to document briefs and showcase designs for peer views, everything will get very adhoc.
<doctormon> wendar and I talked with sabdfl last week, I think he believes that adhoc is good enough, we should have everybodies opinion.
<thorwil> good enough is not good enough ^_^
<mhall119> doctormon: I believe design.canonical.com was going to be moved to design.ubuntu.com, will we add the peer review and critique functionality onto that?
<wendar> mhall119: design.ubuntu.com is being set up as a new "planet" on the main page, that pulls in design.canonical.com
<doctormon> mhall119: It's a php based wordpress site, it's beyond my analysis of it's capability.
<wendar> also, custom pages of Ubuntu design resources
<mhall119> php :(
<wendar> but, we can host anything under the tap
<wendar> tab
<wendar> sladen has more information
<wendar> basically, the planet home page is just a quick way to get community designers voices up on design.ubuntu.com
<wendar> without a lot of infrastructure changes
<doctormon> makes sense, a good direction I think.
<thorwil> sounds good indeed
<mhall119> and then just have reviews and critiques happen on each person's blog comments?
<doctormon> mhall119: That's where it gets adhoc, it doesn't actually matter where they go because each blog could do it differently.
<wendar> mhall119 I wasn't thinking of the blog as part of the workflow, more as general communication
<oreneeshy> wendar: sorry to interrupt can we pause for a sec for a quick rnd on intros
<oreneeshy> of intros
<wendar> oreneeshy: yes, good idea
<sladen> mhall119: latest intention as I understand it.  Is to have  design.ubuntu.com/planet  design.u.c/logo/  design.u.c/font  etc
<wendar> if you weren't here to give an intro last meeting, take a line or two to tell us who you are and what you're interested in
<thorwil> communicating a design process via blog posts is hard work. things break down if it is supposed to go collaborative
<sladen> mhall119: and moving all of the Ubuntu stuff over;  and then to leave /canonical-specific/ stuff on  design.canonical.com  eg.  the blog, and canonical-specific logos/branding
<AlanBell> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuTV/Designs/Pencil is the resources page
<AlanBell> or is a page where some resources are
<AlanBell> I will move them
<AlanBell> sorry, I was scrolled back :)
<wendar> [TOPIC] Catchup introductions
<wendar> (mootbot is only partially following us?)
<AlanBell> Hi I am Alan Bell, I am leader of the UK LoCo and do other bits and bobs. I am interested in helping the design team use Free tools because they are more awesome than the alternatives
<AlanBell> wendar: it doesn't have rights to change the channel topic
<AlanBell> it did hear you
<AlanBell> I also maintain meetingology and have a long list of bugs to fix on it :)
 * sladen is a techie on the Canonical Design Team (basically a glorified lab technician).  Poke me about fonts/packaging/bugs/artwork that isn't published yet.
<wendar> oreneeshy: introduce yourself?
<oreneeshy> Hello am Oren. I do interaction design in the unity team
<thorwil> i'm Thorsten Wilms, allround-designer. reponsible for a few ubuntu related logos, like the one for spreadubuntu. i'm very interested in interaction design and design methods/processes
<oreneeshy> I am interested in developing a community process  that will focus on experience journeys rather then UI behaviours
 * MacSlow is here from the Canonical's DX-team to help mentor anything regarding designer->engieer asset-handover/drafting
 * wendar looks through the introductions last time
<wendar> jasox and antdillon: hi, welcome, would you like to introduce yourselves?
<jasox> I am Jasmin Rahimic, student of IT in Bosnia. I am interested in ubuntu development and design.
<antdillon> hi im a member of the webteam here at canonical, mainly develop front-end code but work backend if I need to.
<jasox> i don't have a lot of design experience.
<antdillon> I am not a designer im a developer
<wendar> we need a little of everything here :)
<doctormon> I'm Martin Owens, programmer with an interest in design workflow.
<sladen> nuthinking: are you here to introduce yourself?
<doctormon> wendar: Once introductions are over, can you continue with our tasks for the week?
<wendar> doctormon: did we finish the summary of the past two weeks?
<wendar> onward, then
<wendar> [TOPIC] Picking the first project
<wendar> (or projects)
<wendar> We have 4 candidate projects
<wendar> and, this is partly a matter of finding out what people are interested in working on
<wendar> so, we may have a couple of threads running with different interest groups
<wendar> The first three are small games, which we can use to try out the design workflow of reviewing and approving an existing application.
<wendar> The forth is more orieted towards assisting that workfllow, exploring possible tools, and maybe developing some new ones.
<wendar> The three games are 4digits, AisleRot, and gbrainy.
<AlanBell> gbrainy is likely to not be on the CD
<wendar> AlanBell: dropped dependencies?
<AlanBell> the mono/banshee thing
<AlanBell> without banshee only gbrainy and tomboy need mono
<AlanBell> not that it should stop anything for this team, just throwing it out there as info
<wendar> very useful thanks
<sladen> AisleRiot was mentioned in the design-sessions at UDS
<AlanBell> I think the main problem with gbrainy is that the questions are not very good, design won't fix that
 * wendar is aiming for general discussion on all three, then vote
<doctormon> So I think we should pair or group people up who are interest in each idea so they can work on it for the week.
<AlanBell> what are 4digits and aisleriot?
<doctormon> After all the group doesn't do projects, people do projects ;-)
<wendar> sladen: was that general design problems or just a new card deck
<sladen> I think it was highlighting that the existing Ubuntu card backs were no longer being picked up
<sladen> but if it came up, perhaps that indicators that it has some mindshare
<mhall119> AlanBell: aisleriot is the gnome card cames
<mhall119> games
<mhall119> solitaire, freecell, etc
<antdillon> http://live.gnome.org/Aisleriot
<oreneeshy> wendar: what is the rational for this choices?
<doctormon> Part of the research should be to look at the comments in the software center too.
<thorwil> i suspect that aisleriot will not offer much room for improving the ux. with 4digits, the shortcomings of the ui might be part of the game
<wendar> oreneeshy: we're looking for something small, that we could do in a week or two
<mhall119> thorwil: the suggestion for aisleriot was to make an ubuntu-themed set of card images
<oreneeshy> ok.
<mhall119> which means it likely won't be accepted upstream
<doctormon> Of course not, but we could make a package for an ubuntu theme surely.
<mhall119> or we could do a non-ubuntu-specific set of art, which might
<wendar> oreneeshy: to walk through one full process including (simple) user journeys, design drafts, implementation and launch
<mhall119> doctormon: yes we could
<oreneeshy>  makes sense
<wendar> oreneeshy: different people will have different interests, but personally, I'm really interested in walking through with your current workflow
<mhall119> oreneeshy: it was more to test our processes with a real-life, but small scope, project
<wendar> oreneeshy: to get a sense of what you do an how
<wendar> oreneeshy: (for the people who are interested in tools for workflow, that would be valuable too, as examples)
<wendar> 4digits is http://fourdigits.sourceforge.net/
<doctormon> wendar: OK we should start to get commitments in the last 12mins of the meeting.
<oreneeshy> wendar: sure. the tools are critical in that sense I agree
<wendar> I asked the developer if he'd be interested in being an example project for a group of Ubuntu designers, and he was enthusiastic
<wendar> did we hear back from asilerot?
<wendar> *AisleRot
<wendar> 4digits is currently in Debian, will be in Precise (sync'd to universe), but is unlikely to be on the CD
<MacSlow> got to go
<wendar> Let's do this as a quick show of hands.
<wendar> Who is interested in working on simple design improvements to AisleRot?
<doctormon> No art people in the house?
<wendar> Who is interested in working on simple design improvements to 4digits?
<wendar> o/
<doctormon> \o
<jasox>  I would like to try.
<wendar> great!
<doctormon> Cool, looks like we have a team for 4digits.
<oreneeshy> cool
<wendar> We'll start on that this week.
<wendar> 4 minutes left, what else do people plan to work on this week?
<doctormon> I'll be ready with that ethersketch alpha by next week.
<oreneeshy> wendar: plan for tools is we do them as they need emerges?
<wendar> oreneeshy: there are a group of people interested in tools now, so if you're interested, we should get you all talking
<oreneeshy> wendar: sounds good
<wendar> oreneeshy: it's very much in the "user journey" phase now, working out the processes designers use, and what would be helpful to them
 * AlanBell wants to know what proprietary tools are used in the current workflow
<doctormon> AlanBell: Google docs and a whiteboard somewhere in london? ;-)
<AlanBell> storyboarding on google docs?
<doctormon> I have no idea.
<AlanBell> hence the question :)
<doctormon> OK, I think we're done for this week. Thank you to all those who came and participated.
<doctormon> And good luck with your design items for the week.
<wendar> Thanks all!
<wendar> #endmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Nov 30 18:02:14 2011 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-design/2011/ubuntu-design.2011-11-30-17.01.moin.txt
<AlanBell> oreneeshy: what tools do you use?
<oreneeshy> AlanBell: depends
<oreneeshy> white board, paper for sketching
<oreneeshy> AI / other tool for WF
<AlanBell> what is AI and WF?
<oreneeshy> graphic tool / google docs for specs
<oreneeshy> wireframing
<AlanBell> what graphic tool?
<oreneeshy> photoshop for mockups
<AlanBell> and what other tool?
<oreneeshy> Adoeb Ilustrator
<oreneeshy> Omnigraph, Visio, pencil, balsamic
<AlanBell> ok, so what does Adobe Illustrator do that made you choose it for wireframing?
<oreneeshy> not much just know it well
<oreneeshy> can do more accurate WF with real dimensions
<oreneeshy> also works well with other CS tools
<AlanBell> really? you design in cm? no px?
<AlanBell> CS tools?
<oreneeshy> other wise it doesn't matter
<AlanBell> computer science?
<oreneeshy> creative suite
<oreneeshy> Adobe
<AlanBell> adobe stuff again?
<oreneeshy> :)
 * AlanBell has never used any of that stuff
<oreneeshy> unfortunately...
<AlanBell> so, dimensions, what units do you work in?
<oreneeshy> pixels
<AlanBell> err, ok
<AlanBell> what doesn't do pixels??
<oreneeshy> against a reference display and target density
<oreneeshy> has to be in a display framework context though
<oreneeshy> so scaling between devices could be considered on early stages
<AlanBell> ok, so inkscape does px measurements
<AlanBell> it has a zoom correction factor so you can set the DPI you are aiming for
<AlanBell> not sure I would want to do anything but 100% to be honest
<AlanBell> you can set the export resolution too
<AlanBell> so what is omnigraph?
<AlanBell> visio is a flowcharting thing, I used that a couple of times about 10 years ago
<AlanBell> can draw network diagrams and things too
<AlanBell> Microsoft bought it or something I think
<AlanBell> Omnigraph is educational maths software?
<AlanBell> PCB prototyping? (that sounds fun)
<AlanBell> this thing? http://www.omnigroup.com/products/omnigraphsketcher
<AlanBell> oreneeshy: when you say balsamic I assume you mean balsamiq which is a software as a service thing like pencil?
<oreneeshy> AlanBell: yes
<AlanBell> is it better than pencil in any way?
<mhall119> Dia is an alternative to Visio, I've used it quite a bit
<oreneeshy> AlanBell: onmigraph is a wire framing tool
<mhall119> AlanBell: Pencil is SaaS?
<AlanBell> omnigraffle?
<AlanBell> mhall119: no, balsamiq is like pencil, but SaaS
<mhall119> oh, ok
<AlanBell> http://konigi.com/tools/omnigraffle-wireframe-stencils that?
<AlanBell> http://www.omnigroup.com/products/omnigraffle/ that appears to be the product maybe?
<oreneeshy> AlanBell: yes
 * AlanBell does not know about obscure programs for the mac :)
<oreneeshy> AlanBell: I think pencil is more then enough for sketching though
<mhall119> oreneeshy: can we either look at using open source tools, or formats that are compatible with open source tools?
<AlanBell> mhall119: this is why I am asking
<mhall119> we can't make having a copy of the CS suite a requirement for community engagement
<oreneeshy> mhall119: yes if pencil is OS it should be enough
<mhall119> it is
<AlanBell> using adobe illustrator errects a Â£500 barrier to collaboration
<oreneeshy> we don't need CS necessarily
<AlanBell> photoshop again
<oreneeshy> I think we can start small
<AlanBell> this grapffle thing is $99
<oreneeshy> ttools are just their to express ideas
<oreneeshy> we can also use google docs - they have quite good drawing tool
<AlanBell> and the open tools can be adapted and fixed
<oreneeshy> many people now use it for WF
<mhall119> cool
<mhall119> oreneeshy: I know it's a lot to ask for you guys to abandon the tools you're familiar with, so file compatibility is enough to make me happy
<AlanBell> what I want is for the Free tools to be *better* for designing stuff for Ubuntu
<oreneeshy> AlanBell: mhall119 http://mortenjust.com/2010/04/19/a-wireframe-kit-for-google-drawings/
<AlanBell> omnigrapffle seems to have a heap of templates and stencils for designing stuff for iPad and suchlike
<oreneeshy> http://googledocs.blogspot.com/2010/05/rapid-wireframe-sketching-in-google.html
<mhall119> AlanBell: we've got a couple decades of work to catch up on to get there
<AlanBell> what we don't have is stuff for designing things for Ubuntu
<oreneeshy> :)
<mhall119> AlanBell: that's where I'd like to see an extensive Pencil stencil collection made
<AlanBell> exactly
<mhall119> for Unity/Ambiance, and also the web themes
<AlanBell> indeed
<mhall119> once I had my launcher button stencils in Pencil, it was easy to build my Unity TV mockup
<oreneeshy> AlanBell: dont know about pencil but g docs can role versioning as well comments and white boarding - so you can sketch and chat on the same page
<AlanBell> versioning is interesting, could store pencil components in bzr
<oreneeshy> its also available form any platform
<AlanBell> however doctormon has a plan which is way more exciting
<AlanBell> I am not too bothered about things being available cross platform
<mhall119> AlanBell: storing Pencil stuff in bzr will be a pain, because it's XML and then it's compressed
<AlanBell> true
<mhall119> oreneeshy: does g docs let you create reusable widgets, for things like Unity Launcher buttons?
<mhall119> that's my favorite part of Pencil
<oreneeshy> mhall119: it's called stencil and the guy writes on it in the blog post
<oreneeshy> u dont have a stencil but you can copy p[aste between docs
<oreneeshy> so one doc could be the stencil and people copy paste items between docs
<mhall119> btw, AlanBell, you can import my Unity stencils into Pencil 1.3.2, I can walk you though
<AlanBell> is there anything in that which makes storyboarding of wireframes interesting?
<AlanBell> mhall119: already done it :)
<mhall119> I'm going to stick with the 1.2 standalone version, I like it better
<mhall119> AlanBell: oh, ok, cool
<AlanBell> I want to do an Ubuntu window frame
<mhall119> AlanBell: +1
<AlanBell> with turn on and offable buttons and shadow
<AlanBell> and I am going to integrate a comment service on the output I think
<mhall119> I'm creating a bzr branch for the unity stencils, what project should I push that to?
<mhall119> or should I create a new project in LP for them?
<mhall119> wendar: sladen: ^^
<sladen> now that's a good question
<wendar> mhall119: it seems sensible to use ubuntu-design
<mhall119> wendar: is that a project name?
<wendar> it's a team, not a project
<mhall119> right, I need lp:~ubuntu-design/<project>/pencil-stencils-unity
<sladen> there is ~ubuntu-design  and  ubuntu-design
<sladen> it would be possible to  push to  lp:~ubuntu-design/ubuntu-design/pencil-stencils-unity
<mhall119> launchpad.net/ubuntu-design/ has nothing
<sladen> but in this case, 'pencil-stencils-unity' is really the project
<mhall119> so I should make a new LP project then
<wendar> or just 'pencil-stencils'?
<mhall119> yeah
<mhall119> or ubuntu-pencil-stencils
<thorwil> AlanBell: i use inkscape for mockups professionally. i don't think it has to stand behind illustrator in this context (illustrator does have some more tricks up its sleaves)
<thorwil> or in other words, where detailed vector work is needed or beneficial, inkscape does the trick
<thorwil> now i really have to look into pencil. last time i checked was too early
<thorwil> was hoping i could use the standalone version, but "Could not find compatible GRE between version 1.9.1 and 1.9.2.*." :/
<AlanBell> yes, standalone is somewhat dropped
<AlanBell> they don't seem to be building it upstream, and we dropped xulrunner so it wouldn't work anyway
<mhall119> did we ever establish a moderated team for design?
<AlanBell> ooh, no branches :)
<mhall119> no branches?
<AlanBell> on open teams
<mhall119> I thin you can, but no PPAs
<AlanBell> oh, ok
<AlanBell> thorwil: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuTV/Designs/Pencil
<thorwil> yes, saw that, ty
<sladen> There Xara3D too
<AlanBell> the export template makes storyboards with query fades like this http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/unitytelly/
<sladen> which kwwii used to use quite a lot
<mhall119> doh, set it to the wrong team
<mhall119> cjohnston: you around?
<cjohnston> at work
<mhall119> cjohnston: can you add me to ubuntu-design-drafters when you have a minute?
<AlanBell> http://www.xara.com/uk/products/xara3d/features/ this thing that looks like blender?
<mhall119> AlanBell: https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-design/ubuntu-pencil/pencil-stencils-unity
<mhall119> AlanBell: "make" will create the Unity.zip from the Definition.xml, "make update" will extract the Definition.xml from Unity.zip
<AlanBell> cool
<mhall119> so if you make changes in Pencil, export the collection to Unity.zip in the branch directory, run "make update", and it should be ready to commit
<mhall119> we'll just have to be careful when merging
<AlanBell> what is the difference between a private collection and a regular collection?
<mhall119> AlanBell: I have no idea
<mhall119> I think private collections get saved in ~/.pencil, rather than the system-wide folder
<AlanBell> ok, because your unity.zip wouldn't import as a regular collection, but got added straight in as a private one
<mhall119> which probably only made sense on the standalone version
<mhall119> AlanBell: maybe there's a structural difference too, I don't know
<AlanBell> collection specification not found in archive
<AlanBell> wonder if there is some kind of manifest file that it needs
<mhall119> hmm...
<cjohnston> k
<AlanBell> just installed the DoJo UI Widgets, that worked fine as a regular collection http://pencil.evolus.vn/en-US/Downloads/Stencils.aspx
<AlanBell> no extra files in the zip, just Definition.xml and some png files
<wendar> mhall119: added you to ubuntu-design-drafters
<AlanBell> oh, very different XML
<mhall119> wendar: thanks
<mhall119> AlanBell: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-pencil I've made a series for each of our Pencil resources, and put them in bzr branches
<mhall119> if you want to change the wiki references to use them, instead of our people.u.c uploads
<AlanBell> will do
<mmiicc> Just looking at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesignTeam/Resources. I would go with Gpick (http://code.google.com/p/gpick/) instead of Agave. Has more features and it is still maintained.
<mhall119> AlanBell: http://people.ubuntu.com/~mhall119/utv/index.html what do you think of the remote with button hilights?
#ubuntu-design 2011-12-01
<JohnLea> ?
<AlanBell> hi JohnLea
<AlanBell> !
<daker> what are the essentiel features on a TV ?
<daker> AlanBell, mhall119 ?
<AlanBell> hi daker
<AlanBell> the #ubuntu-tv channel is probably a better place for that question
<AlanBell> for me, watching TV is an essential feature of a TV
<AlanBell> change channels and adjust volume
<daker> ok thanks AlanBell
<bwinton_> AlanBell: I wonder if channels are really an essential feature of a TVâ¦
<mhall119> bwinton_: s/channels/feeds/
<mhall119> a channel is just a time-based feed of media
<bwinton_> mhall119: Even then.  I might buy s/feeds/shows/
<mhall119> bwinton_: a feed is an updating list of shows
<bwinton_> It seems to me that the time-based part of TV is going away.  Slowly, ironically.  :)
<mhall119> yes, i tis
<bwinton_> mhall119: Okay, I'ld buy that definition.
<mhall119> so you might have an NBC feed, and you also might have an "Alan Bell's favorite shows he's sharing with you" feed
<mhall119> and also a "Firefly: the TV series" feed
<bwinton_> mhall119: And then I would weep for the episodes that won't be produced.  :)
<mhall119> bwinton_: that's the best part, the produces of Firefly can produce it, include their own advertising, and distrubute it without having to sell it to a cable company
 * imnichol is away: I'm busy
 * imnichol is back (gone 00:00:41)
<AlanBell> imnichol: can you turn off the noisy away script please
<imnichol> Yeah someone in ubuntu+1 already told me
<imnichol> Sorry
<AlanBell> no problem, thanks
<imnichol> I plead ignorance of IRC ;)
<imnichol> Which carries only a 10 year sentence
<svwilliams> AlanBell, is that a default of some IRC clients?
<svwilliams> I am also a IRC ignorant :-)
<AlanBell> not sure svwilliams, it isn't a default of my client :)
<svwilliams> it doesn't appear to be default in mine ... but I figured it could be
#ubuntu-design 2011-12-02
<dholbach> good morning
<mainerror> Morning.
<om26er> bug 885544 anyone have thoughts?
<webbugs> Launchpad bug 885544 in unity (Ubuntu) "Pressing OS Key shows Lens in FullScreen Apps/Games" [Undecided,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/885544
<AlanBell> om26er: you can change or turn off the hotkey in unity preferences in ccsm
<AlanBell> I did that as the host was grabbing it when working in VMs
<AlanBell> I think that is a reasonable solution to someone accidentally pressing it
<mhall119> AlanBell: do you happen to have a Pencil template for Phone/Tablet too?
<AlanBell> no, but I did find a great android sketching collection
<AlanBell> http://code.google.com/p/evoluspencil/ download available here
<mhall119> AlanBell: I was looking for something to mockup Unity on tablets and phones
<AlanBell> yes, I was planning on doing that once it was a success in -tv, which I think it is
<AlanBell> the android stencil set has a great phone template in it
<AlanBell> what is the aspect ratio of a tablet?
<AlanBell> they will need landscape and portrait orientations
<mhall119> I'd call Pencil a success, yes
<jderose> AlanBell: seems most android tablets are 16:9, som 16:10, and i believe the ipad is 4:3
<MrChrisDruif> Hi everyone
<MrChrisDruif> How's it going here?
<Ronnie> hey MrChrisDruif, also into design?
<MrChrisDruif> Ronnie; Yeah, just a bit =)
<MrChrisDruif> We've got a bit of a design dilemma @ #ubuntu-phone
<MrChrisDruif> And imnichol thought I was the better communicator of the two of us =')
<MrChrisDruif> So naturally I laughed, but still here I am ;-)
<Ronnie> ;)
<MrChrisDruif> imnichol; I know Ronnie from my LoCo
<Ronnie> MrChrisDruif: i didnt know there was a ubuntu-phone project. where can i find some info about it?
<MrChrisDruif>  /join #ubuntu-phone
<MrChrisDruif> All the info is in the topic
<MrChrisDruif> Ronnie; you might also like #ubuntu-tv and #ubuntu-tablet
<Ronnie> oh, these are very wide projects
<MrChrisDruif> Well, me and imnichol thought we have to do much for ubuntu-tablet
<imnichol> I think you mean "won't have to do much"
<MrChrisDruif> Yeah, typo over there =)
<MrChrisDruif> Sorry aboot that (Yes, I said that like a Canadian according to South Park ;-) )
<Ronnie> big difference typo ;)
<MrChrisDruif> We can't be all perfect Ronnie & imnichol ;-)
<imnichol> ;)
<Ronnie> i won't even try to be ;)
<MrChrisDruif> Anyhow, about that design dilemma...
<MrChrisDruif> With the current Unity design for Desktop/Tablet we've got no problems. However with the small screens of Phones, we've got an issue
<MrChrisDruif> Unity is more design for screens in landscape orientation, whereas Phones natural position is portrait orientation
<MrChrisDruif> imnichol mentioned webos or something like that, which is similar to Unity except for the location of the Unity bar, which is on the bottom. I think it would be a smart thing to do for Ubuntu Phone in portrait mode
<MrChrisDruif> Thought anyone?
<AlanBell> dunno, sketch up a few options and show them to sabdfl
<MrChrisDruif> That might be a good idea
<sabdfl> hello
<sabdfl> issue with bottom launcher is density and width
<sabdfl> also, thumb flex
<sabdfl> perhaps an android app to test on your favourite phone?
<MrChrisDruif> I didn't know sabdfl was here =)
<sabdfl> I AM EVERYWHERE ;-)
<MrChrisDruif> Haha ='D
<MrChrisDruif> So you think we should keep the bar on the long side?
<AlanBell> MrChrisDruif: there is a set of android templates for pencil which includes a perfectly good empty phone frame to draw stuff in
<MrChrisDruif> (There are pro's and con's to either decision I think)
<AlanBell> workspace switcher is important on a phone
<imnichol> Is it/
<imnichol> *Is it?
<AlanBell> more important than on a TV
<AlanBell> possibly
<MrChrisDruif> Yes, you want to switch applications regularly on a phone
<imnichol> But that doesn't mean switching workplaces
<MrChrisDruif> And on a phone they should be full screen
<AlanBell> true imnichol
<imnichol> If all apps are full screen, there's no reason to have workspaces
<MrChrisDruif> Well, I think there is =)
<AlanBell> I was actually thinking about my android home page with 5 swipeable pages of apps
<imnichol> That's a different thing that I actually agree with
<AlanBell> 7 pages actually
<imnichol> My pre has 3
<MrChrisDruif> You can switch workspaces more easily then apps on the same screen I think
<AlanBell> with widgets and app launcher buttons
<MrChrisDruif> To lure users to the Ubuntu Phone things like widget are pretty useful/necessary
<MrChrisDruif> I think
<MrChrisDruif> AlanBell; do you happen to know where to find those templates of android phone for Pencil?
#ubuntu-design 2011-12-03
<AlanBell> MrChrisDruif: linked here http://code.google.com/p/evoluspencil/
<MrChrisDruif> Great =)
<MrChrisDruif> Is the design team just been around since mid November?
<CrazyThinker> Why is the default launcher icon size so big?
<nigelb> MrChrisDruif: Nope. They've been around since at least before Lucid.
<nigelb> But this channel has only been around post-UDS.
<MrChrisDruif> "Revision 1 as of 2011-11-16 15:37:07"
<MrChrisDruif> That's from the wiki page
<MrChrisDruif> Post which UDS? ;-)
<nigelb> The last one.
<MrChrisDruif> Ahh, UDS-P
<nigelb> Right. Sorry.
<MrChrisDruif> It's alright =)
<mhall119> MrChrisDruif: there was a session at UDS-P about building the relationship between Canonical's design team and the community designers, and this channel is one of the outcomes of that discussion
<mhall119> MrChrisDruif: there's also an ~ubuntu-design team on Launchpad now
<MrChrisDruif> Yeah, I saw =)
#ubuntu-design 2012-11-28
<thorwil> mpt: how do you think about miller columns in the dash?
<mpt> thorwil, I have never thought about Miller columns in the Dash.
<thorwil> the first column could be: All (instead of Home), Applications, Files & Folders, Music, Videos (, additional lenses)
<thorwil> second column (not appearing for All) for what is now in "Filter results"
<thorwil> the current additive filter selection would be even less expected, but i doubt it's usefulness, anyway
<thorwil> s/it's/its
<thorwil> with the current design (well, 12.04), i would expect that users at first don't even notice the lenses. once they do, "Home" has the potential to confuse by association with "Home folder". the applications icon is just unrecognizable
<thorwil> http://yeknan.free.fr/dc2/index.php?post/2012/11/15/Les-menus almost makes me want to wipe this installation to get Elementary instead
<mpt> heh
<thorwil> not because it would matter that much for my personal use, just out of embarrassment
#ubuntu-design 2013-11-25
<mrmcq2u> hey
<mrmcq2u> http://dribbble.com/shots/1054967-Michael-Dolej-s-Free-Colorful-Icons-Animated?list=searches&tag=animated_icons
<mrmcq2u> any thoughts on animating icons like this?
