#ubuntu-discuss 2012-07-16
<Jagst3r15> anyone participating in dell's project sputnik
<ubot5> New news from planetubuntu: Jonathan Thomas: Muon Suite 1.4 RC Released <http://jontheechidna.wordpress.com/2012/07/16/muon-suite-1-4-rc-released/>
<Jagst3r15> i dont know how i feel about the global menu. I wish there was an option to disable it, but that would be impossible
<ubot5> New news from planetubuntu: Ubuntu Ohio - Burning Circle: "Not The Program" For July 16, 2012 <http://ohio.ubuntu-us.org/node/106>
<ubot5> New news from planetubuntu: Didier Roche: Announcing session-migration now in ubuntu <http://blog.didrocks.fr/post/Announcing-session-migration-now-in-ubuntu>
<Mkaysi> Hi jussi, what should I see here?
<chu> ubot5 sends out rss feeds when a new one comes in.
<ubot5> chu: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :)
<chu> Don't worry ubot5, I don't :)
<MrChrisDruif> =)
<ubot5> New news from planetubuntu: Ubuntu TV: Ubuntu TV Weekly Update <http://www.doadjustyourset.com/2012/07/16/ubuntu-tv-weekly-update-2/>
<ubot5> New news from planetubuntu: Martin Pitt: PyGObject 3.3.4 released <http://www.piware.de/2012/07/pygobject-3-3-4-released/> || Amber Graner: Using Color to Improve Your Office Space and Daily Routine <http://akgraner.com/?p=1293>
<ubot5> New news from planetubuntu: Launchpad News: Bug reporting and search knows about privacy <http://blog.launchpad.net/general/bug-reporting-and-search-knows-about-privacy>
<ubot5> New news from planetubuntu: Stuart Langridge: Calibre for e-books <http://www.kryogenix.org/days/2012/07/16/calibre-for-e-books>
<ubot5> New news from planetubuntu: Jason Gerard DeRose: Please help test CouchDB 1.2.0 for Quantal <http://jderose.blogspot.com/2012/07/please-help-test-couchdb-120-for.html>
<ubot5> New news from planetubuntu: Tony Whitmore: Feel the power <http://tonywhitmore.co.uk/blog/2012/07/16/feel-the-power/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=feel-the-power>
<ubot5> New news from planetubuntu: Serge Hallyn: Crypto tutorial <http://s3hh.wordpress.com/2012/07/16/crypto-tutorial/>
#ubuntu-discuss 2012-07-17
<IdleOne> http://blogs.valvesoftware.com/linux/steamd-penguins/ games!
<ubot5> New news from planetubuntu: Nicholas Skaggs: Testing in Cadence <http://www.theorangenotebook.com/2012/07/testing-in-cadence.html>
<ubot5> New news from planetubuntu: Pablo Rubianes: Python Docs Unity Lens <http://pablorubianes.wordpress.com/2012/07/17/python-docs-unity-lens/> || The Fridge: Ubuntu Weekly Newsletter Issue 274 <http://fridge.ubuntu.com/2012/07/17/ubuntu-weekly-newsletter-issue-274/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=ubuntu-weekly-newsletter-issue-274>
<ubot5> New news from planetubuntu: Aaron Toponce: 128-bit URLs In Python <http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/pthree/~3/o5dZ-2A_2LM/>
<ubot5> New news from planetubuntu: Thorsten Wilms: Get on Board the Blues â Guicussion Remix <http://thorwil.wordpress.com/2012/07/17/get-on-board-the-blues-guicussion-remix/>
<jussi> IdleOne: games rock - Im pretty happy valve has finally gone that way
<DJones> There's only one game playing though...Minecraft :)
<DJones> s/game playing/game worth playing/
<jussi> DJones: lol, you have been hanging out with popey too long...
<DJones> Heh
<popey> :D
<DJones> In defence of popey, I've not seen him play Minecraft for weeks
<jussi> he plays it vicariously through his kids...
<jussi> :D
<popey> busy coding
<popey> decided I wouldn't play till I had some code finished
<jussi> So do we think that steam will actually bring some big names titles to ubuntu?
<DJones> Thats definatly not a question for me, I haven't got a clue about games steam have released/distribute, apart from minecraft, I've not bought a game for about 10 years
<DJones> :)
<popey> jussi, well there's already all the recent humble bundle ones which are mostly on steam
<popey> so if you already bought those you can install them easily via steam
<jussi> popey: yeah, Im kind of more talking about the super popular mainstream titles
<popey> time will tell
<jussi> interested to see whether stuff you see out there being advertised will make it to Ubuntu
<jussi> popey: this is true :P
<popey> i expect so, after a while
<DJones> Hmmh, Actually, I've just realised, my game buying days seem to have gone around the same time I started going with my (now) wife..........
<jussi> hahaha
<AlanBell> is there some kind of reference specification for running steam games?
<jussi> TBH I havent bought a game since I found civ3 at a garage sale a couple of years back
<jussi> AlanBell: good question, Im not sure.
<AlanBell> with consoles like the PS2 or wii the designers know the spec and frame rate it can do etc because they are all the same
<jussi> AlanBell: true, but how do the PC creators do it?
<AlanBell> well I know for doom and quake you could turn down the resolution, but I haven't played any PC games since that era realy
<jussi> I think they can still do that
<AlanBell> I know games can be quite taxing because there are gaming PCs that are high end still
<AlanBell> you can set up flight simulators with multiple monitors, probably other games too
<jussi> true
<jussi> flight sims are not an issue on linux though, as the best one you can buy is native linux
<jussi> (and anyone who tries to tell me ms flight is the best shouldreally go try xplane, which equips flight sims that you can actually earn hours on...)
<AlanBell> I have only played flightgear
<jussi> its ok, ish, but Xplane is the industry leader.
 * popey notes flight sims don't feature in.. http://digitalbattle.com/2012/02/21/top-10-highest-grossing-video-games-ever/
<popey> nor http://www.videogamesblogger.com/2011/07/26/top-10-steam-games-of-2011-so-far-usa.htm
<popey> or http://store.steampowered.com/#topsellers
<popey> :)
<jussi> popey: however, I would wager a bet that if you took flights sims combined sales over their life, they would be among the top sellers. ie. MS Flight has been around for 20 odd years...
<jussi> so flight sims are like a long term investment :)
<AlanBell> dunno, I think they probably cater to a fairly specific audience though
<AlanBell> more people in total can play angry birds and get something out of it than a flightsim
<jussi> true that
<jussi> a specific, but loyal and cashed up audience
<popey> who buy one expensive app every few years
<jussi> popey: no
<popey> relative to casual gamers, yes
<jussi> popey: there are lot of addons that people buy, new aeroplanes, new terrain, cities etc.
<jussi> its not just the game itsself
<popey> sure, there's dlc
<popey> how does this look? (the bottom one) http://popey.com/~alan/onair.png ?
<popey> nice and simple imo
<AlanBell> I like it
<jussi> popey: yeah, me too, its nice
<popey> thanks chaps
<popey> (I didnt make it)
<Pici> The CoF on the right looks out of place on the bottom one imho.
<popey> it does a little..
<MrChrisDruif> popey; I think I prefer the top one
<MrChrisDruif> But that is just feeling, I can't describe why I prefer it over the other. Probably less obstrusive
<ubot5> New news from planetubuntu: Jason Gerard DeRose: How Dmedia makes file management go away <http://jderose.blogspot.com/2012/07/how-dmedia-makes-file-management-go.html>
#ubuntu-discuss 2012-07-18
<IndieMedia> News about Steam and Ubuntu -> http://gamejolt.com/profile/anti-atom/blog/news/linux-the-future/9615/
<popey> something tells me that steam are using ubuntu as a stepping stone to steam on the TV
<popey> and getting steam on ubuntu is a way to convince game devs that they should port to linux.. because we have a wide install base
<popey> which they can then flip the switch and say "ok, now we're focussed on TV" and use steam on linux on tv
<jussi> popey: hrm, and whats your job title again? :D
<popey> "that bloke"
<jussi> lol
<jussi> "that bloke who quit minecraft"
<popey> nah, not quit, resting
<jussi> I, thankfully, have not been sucked into the silly timewaster :)
<Jordan_U> What are the advantages of Ubuntu sticking with Upstart rather than moving to SystemD?
<topyli> no idea, but at least it's preventing us from having a GDM later than 3.0 :(
<topyli> anyway, we should probably coerce debian to adopt systemd first anyway, and coercing them is not a trivial task
<topyli> well, changing init systems is not easy in a project like debian anyway
<topyli> i seem to say 'anyway' a lot tonight
<Jordan_U> topyli: SystemD is in Testing, though I don't know how well it actually works yet.
<topyli> yeah i had sid on my desktop box not long ago, it had systemd packages. didn't have the guts to try it
<Jordan_U> I should try it myself one of these days.
<topyli> i could put sid on that box again as well
<topyli> or testing, it's not as bad as it was 6-7 years ago
<topyli> in any case, you're not likely going to get an installation option like "which init system would you like to use?" :)
<topyli> and it might not be fun to change after the fact. i don't know though, just scares me somehow
#ubuntu-discuss 2012-07-19
<somebody> how can i make ubuntu do something stupid?
<elfy> ?
<somebody> yeah.. something stupid!
<somebody> never mind.. i am going to occupy my bed! :) good night
<AlanBell> http://www.oscon.com/oscon2012/public/content/video
<zykotick9> i think PPA might "really" stand for "Providing Problems Always" ;)  default packages ftw
#ubuntu-discuss 2012-07-20
<jussi> zykotick9: hehe, guess thats why they all say "unsupported" ;)
<Tm_T> hmmm, webapps integration
<Tm_T> I kinda like the whole idea of it
<AlanBell> yeah, I like that a lot
<AlanBell> getting web applications to publish real menus is very cool
<Tm_T> AlanBell: one step forward of my crazy idea of "all you need is browser"
<Tm_T> not that I prefer it that way, but it's an interesting option to go with
<AlanBell> which is the google chrome os principle too
<Tm_T> or Firefox OS
<Tm_T> AlanBell: that reminds me, I run my ssh client in chrome
<AlanBell> I need to find out about ssh in firefox somehow then I will flash my phone to firefox os
#ubuntu-discuss 2013-07-15
<Agd_Scorp> I'd like to know, are most of you guys in here atheists?
<Jagst3r15> anyone own the ubuntu dell xps
#ubuntu-discuss 2013-07-19
<Desync>  as far as the future of ubuntu to the consumer/business market, what are they planning to do in regards to integration/support for running certain critical applications (i.e. - Quickbooks with payroll for whatever latest calendar year it may be)? It seems to be the main thing keeping a majority of small business users from making the transition from microsoft. Myself being on of those in that possible customer base for their advan
<Desync> ced suppo
<Desync>  rt they sell.
<Frogging|work> I think the future is smartphones and tablets, unfortunately.
<Frogging|work> Of Ubuntu, that is
<Frogging|work> That seems to be what Shuttleworth wants, anyway.
<k1l_> the commercial support didnt change, did it?
<k1l_> and to believe only smartphones and tablets would be the only future is a trap. ubuntu will keep the desktop because the whole package (desktop and mobile and tv) does make the difference in the game against the big ones (android, windows, redhat,...)
<k1l_> and quickbooks got a macos version. so talk to quickbooks if they offer a linux version
<Frogging|work> k1l_: I know, but the thing is that they're developing the mobile version at the expense of the desktop one; instead of taking the desktop version and forking it to make a mobile one, they're trying to make a single unified UI that "works" on both (the result being that the quality of both suffers because of the vastly different controls)
<k1l_> Frogging|work: the most work is to do on the mobile one
<k1l_> ubuntu got a running desktop. but not a running mobile so far.
<Frogging|work> Unity, the desktop UI that most people dislike, was designed for the purpose of being touch-friendly. This is the same mistake that Windows 8 made.
<Frogging|work> And it had the same result; nobody likes it because it destroys any possibility of an efficient workflo
<Frogging|work> workflow*
<k1l_> Frogging|work: dont mix the loud shouting from the "few" nerds who dont even use ubuntu with the opnion from the mainstream user
<k1l_> Frogging|work: :/
<k1l_> dont tell me that "nobody can work with unity"
<k1l_> that is just stupid
<Frogging|work> Well for one thing, I can barely use it on my laptop (Intel graphics) because it has these ridiculous transparency effects and such that add little and slow it down.
<k1l_> you dont like unity? ok. you want a gnome2-desktop back? ok. but dont say nobody can work with unity
<Frogging|work> And they removed the one-click option to turn desktop effects on and off that they had a couple years ago
<Desync> Mainstream user here. I love unity.
<Frogging|work> Why?
<Frogging|work> Tell me one thing about it that is better than gnome 2 or whatever it was that was there before
<k1l_> the problem right now is, that they will not invest alot of work into the old X-server+unity because they are working on the MIR-server with unity8
<Desync> One thing? I would say it has support directly from Canonical as that's what they are pushing.
<k1l_> Frogging|work: ever thought about that your learning of where to click in the gnome-menue of the last years, to find a app to start is not really considered intuitive or fast at all?
<k1l_> like i give you a mixed startmenue and you need to start a program.
<Frogging|work> Desync: That's irrelevant to the user experience. And just because they're pushing it doesn't mean by any stretch that it's good
<Desync> good being an opinion of every individual user
<Desync> granted I have no problem learning new things and actually enjoy it. Maybe im the minority on this topic
<k1l_> Frogging|work: or the space on the screen that is now free for more informations because the global menue saves that space
<Frogging|work> And about mir, what about this, huh? http://news.softpedia.com/news/Mir-Developers-Acknowledges-20-Performance-Drop-Over-the-X-Display-Server-369155.shtml
<Desync> i do not have much experience working with UX in anything nix. Always been terminal stuff for me
<k1l_> Frogging|work: its still in development. did you think of that?
<Frogging|work> k1l_: Yes, but then there's this (one sec while I find the link)
<Frogging|work> http://www.zdnet.com/mark-shuttleworth-mir-has-delivered-what-we-hoped-7000017897/
<Frogging|work> He said that a little over a week before that other article was posted
<Frogging|work> So it's delivered what they hoped, yet it's still 20% slower? What?
<k1l_> Frogging|work: they have lots of potential to at least get as fast as X with Xmir. at least!
<k1l_> Frogging|work: didnt you read that bit where the mir devs said that?
<Frogging|work> Where?
<k1l_> i thought you did a well research on that topic?
<Frogging|work> Also, that image in the first link is a bit weird... Looks like you have to make 2 clicks instead of 1 to open the terminal.
<Frogging|work> Just a sec
<Frogging|work> I do remember seeing something like that somewhere, but forget where
<Frogging|work> There are a few conflicting reports
<Frogging|work> But what's with the contradiction, anyway? Shuttleworth says that it's faster than X on his laptop, yet a week later an actual dev comes out and says that it's 20% slower
<Desync> possibly the dev was using a different version?
<Frogging|work> Maybe it will end up being faster, maybe not. But the point is, what Shuttleworth is saying is rather suspicious.
<k1l_> http://blog.cooperteam.net/  Frogging|work
<Frogging|work> Hmm...
<Frogging|work> Who are they? Just curious
<k1l_> chris h rogers is one of the MIR devs
<k1l_> thought you knew something about MIR
<Frogging|work> I never said that, I just saw what I saw
<k1l_> Frogging|work: ok, then im telling you: you only saw on side of the medal
#ubuntu-discuss 2014-07-19
<Matej_> Hey guys, can i have a question?
#ubuntu-discuss 2015-07-13
<lotuspsychje> good morning to all
<lordievader> Good afternoon.
#ubuntu-discuss 2015-07-14
<OerHeks> Hi philipballew :-0
<OerHeks> :-)
<OerHeks> just reading your twitter, and noticed you are an author: https://twitter.com/philipballew/status/612085479102529537
<OerHeks> How can i obtain a copy/copies of the guide? ( i am in The Netherlands)
<philipballew> OerHeks, If you pay shipping, I can mail it to you.
<philipballew> I have copies in my room.
<philipballew> OerHeks, I hope all is well with you!
<OerHeks> Yes, i am fine thanks! How are you?
<philipballew> OerHeks, All is well! I am just living life in San Diego these days.
<OerHeks> I am thinking about giving this book to new users, please let me know what P&P will be?
<OerHeks> maybe in combination with an publicity action of ubuntu-nl, something like that
<lotuspsychje> good morning to all
<OerHeks> hi lotus
<lordievader> Good morning.
<lotuspsychje> good afternoon
<lotuspsychje> johnyyyyyy
<Johnny_Linux> woohoo
<Johnny_Linux> marnin
<lotuspsychje> hellow mate
<lotuspsychje> just about to leave to city
<Johnny_Linux> party ??
<lotuspsychje> no its afternoon here :p
<lotuspsychje> 13:23 belgium
<Johnny_Linux> its 5'oclock somewhere
<lotuspsychje> lol
<Johnny_Linux> i forgot, .be
<Johnny_Linux> so, how does it feel to live in the future
<lotuspsychje> belgian waffles and delicious beeer
<lotuspsychje> hahaha, the middle ages you mean?
<Johnny_Linux> mmmmm, beeeeer
<Johnny_Linux> ya, middle ages, whew
<Johnny_Linux> its getting like that here
<lotuspsychje> lol
<Johnny_Linux> well, have a safe trip, see you when you get back, god bless my friend, im out for coffee.
<lotuspsychje> okay laterz mate
<lotuspsychje> Johnny_Linux: stay on the right road Johnny_Linux
<Johnny_Linux> you got it
<lotuspsychje> :P
<lotuspsychje> ===>OUT
<Johnny_Linux> 10-4
<BluesKaj> Hey folks
#ubuntu-discuss 2015-07-15
<BluesKaj> Hiyas all
#ubuntu-discuss 2015-07-16
<lotuspsychje> good morning
<lotuspsychje> http://news.softpedia.com/news/system76-to-remove-adobe-flash-from-its-ubuntu-computers-486924.shtml
<lotuspsychje> http://linux.softpedia.com/blog/solus-ditches-adobe-s-flash-gets-boot-time-down-to-1-4-seconds-487006.shtml
<lotuspsychje> RIP flash
<histo> nah too many porn sites rely on it for it to die.
 * histo wonders if gnash is vunerable
<lotuspsychje> histo: hmm not sure histo
<lotuspsychje> histo: alot of flash elemants get hacked
<lordievader> Good morning.
<BluesKaj> Hiyas all
<lotuspsychje> good afternoon to all
<lotuspsychje> http://linux.softpedia.com/blog/solus-ditches-adobe-s-flash-gets-boot-time-down-to-1-4-seconds-487006.shtml
<lordievader> o/
<lotuspsychje> hie lordievader
<lotuspsychje> sunny outside :p
<lordievader> Do you happen to have experience with PyQt(4)?
<lotuspsychje> no sorry
<lotuspsychje> whats the matter with it?
<lordievader> Trying to add a progress bar to a splashscreen nicely.
<lotuspsychje> sorry cant help with that :p
<lordievader> Ah, I can just move the progress bar. Never mind.
#ubuntu-discuss 2015-07-17
<lotuspsychje> good morning to all
<Bashing-om> lotuspsychje: 0/ .
<lotuspsychje> Bashing-om: hello mate
<OerHeks> Birds in the morning
<lotuspsychje> OerHeks: hellow :p
<OerHeks> hi Bashing-om lotuspsychje
<Bashing-om> 'bout the end of my shift OerHeks , You been on long too .
 * lotuspsychje is browsing http://www.dailyubuntu.com/ news
<lotuspsychje> OerHeks is a night-owl :p
<Bashing-om> lotuspsychje: ^^ nice little digest .
<lotuspsychje> :p
<Bashing-om> Calling it, yall take care .
<lordievader> Goodmorning.
<BluesKaj> Hey folks
<lotuspsychje> good evening folks
<daftykins> harro there o/
<daftykins> how are we?
<lotuspsychje> daftykins: hi mate, all fine here
<lotuspsychje> you?
<daftykins> yes thanks! still got a friend over from the US so been doing touristy things
<daftykins> finally had a day off today though, i need it - sunburn from yesterday day tripping over to a smaller island :)
<lotuspsychje> sounds cool
<lotuspsychje> dont forget the local bars
<daftykins> :)
<daftykins> over on this other island the drinks are so much cheaper
<daftykins> Â£5.30 for two pints, whilst a Guinness alone would cost me Â£3.90 over here
<lotuspsychje> beer got expensive these days
<daftykins> mmhmm
<BluesKaj> hey lotuspsychje, daftykins
<daftykins> o/
<lotuspsychje> BluesKaj: hello mate
<daftykins> how goes?
<BluesKaj> good here , but rainy and cool ...staying inside today
<lotuspsychje> sunny here
<BluesKaj> gonna be sunny and 29C tomorrow...beer drinking weather
<daftykins> haha that's hide indoors in somewhere with AC weather to me ;)
<OerHeks> it is too hot to be funny
<OerHeks> dog want's to play
<OerHeks> but it is my turn on the internet now
<daftykins> :>
<BluesKaj> daftykins, we'll be sitting in the shade so it's bearable , and the A/C will be on in the house, that's a given.
<daftykins> \o/
<daftykins> weathers too mild at both ends of the 'spectrum' here for AC in homes to be common
<OerHeks> If i open a small window on the shade side of my house too, the airflow will keep it human.
<lotuspsychje> http://news.softpedia.com/news/xubuntu-linux-is-being-used-to-teach-students-at-colegio-hispano-americano-in-puerto-rico-487132.shtml
<lotuspsychje> nice projects around the globe
<lotuspsychje> !info firefox
<ubot5> firefox (source: firefox): Safe and easy web browser from Mozilla. In component main, is optional. Version 39.0+build5-0ubuntu0.15.04.1 (vivid), package size 41015 kB, installed size 99262 kB
<Johnny_Linux> 1 info the moon is made of cheese
<Johnny_Linux> D`oh!
<lotuspsychje> lol
<Johnny_Linux> whats shakin over there
<Johnny_Linux> brb, telly
<EriC^^> hey lotuspsychje
<lotuspsychje> hey EriC^^ how are you
<EriC^^> great you?
<lotuspsychje> fine fine tnx mate
<daftykins> wow that guy is complicating life, just buy a network printer in future 8D
<lotuspsychje> :p
<OerHeks> "not rebooted yet" .. zucht
<daftykins> XD
<lotuspsychje> lotuspsychje@R00TB0X:~$ cowsay -d duck MOO Daftykins
<lotuspsychje>  ____________________
<lotuspsychje> < duck MOO Daftykins >
<lotuspsychje>  --------------------
<lotuspsychje>         \   ^__^
<lotuspsychje>          \  (xx)\_______
<lotuspsychje>             (__)\       )\/\
<lotuspsychje>              U  ||----w |
<lotuspsychje>                 ||     ||
<daftykins> that's one confused cow :>
<lotuspsychje> lol
<OerHeks> greek cow?
<lotuspsychje> lol
<daftykins> i didn't see it asking for money
<daftykins> ooooh topical and rude
<lotuspsychje> IMF will sponsor $$$$$$$
<OerHeks> haha greek PM sends mp oxi voters home, democraticly
<lotuspsychje> democracy is a hoax!
<lotuspsychje> we are all $$ slaves
<BluesKaj> merkel isn't a fav with the greeks
<OerHeks> EU national anthem 2015 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
<OerHeks> sorry, you have it in your head next 24 hrs
<lotuspsychje> roflol OerHeks
 * lotuspsychje wished ubuntu had opensource social powers to change the world
<OerHeks> Our PM promissed us 1000 euro's. he kept his promise, only it goes straight away to greece
<lotuspsychje> no more greedy politcians, just sharing ppl
<OerHeks> yeah, democraty is not about sharing at all.
<lotuspsychje> did anyone vote for the EU ever???
<OerHeks> sharing the bill, it is.
<lotuspsychje> lol!
<lotuspsychje> we are paying their salary
<OerHeks> them miss from IMF does not pay any taxes.
<OerHeks> that*
<lotuspsychje> i never asked for a njew coin value...
<OerHeks> monday payday, 3 more nights ..
<lotuspsychje> the money system will collapse soon, youl see
<BluesKaj> bitcoin or britcoin ?
<lotuspsychje> back2 basics yeah BluesKaj bitcoin and local exchange trading system
<BluesKaj> barter in goods and services
<OerHeks> oh, bitcoin-taxes are ready
<lotuspsychje> yeah taxes, an invention for politics
<BluesKaj> I'm still trying to figure out how bitcoin works...I'm a "bit" wary of that system
<lotuspsychje> BluesKaj: im in a LETS system and works very well
<lotuspsychje> BluesKaj: its sharing services/items over a virtual coin system
<lotuspsychje> i bake a bread for you, you paint my wall
<lotuspsychje> and we both get 60 LETS coins
<lotuspsychje> to spend on other ppl
<BluesKaj> LETS?
<lotuspsychje> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_exchange_trading_system
<lotuspsychje> we saved alot of money with this BluesKaj
<BluesKaj> intersting, how does the system attach worth to certain goods or servcices , is there an agreement setup ?
<lotuspsychje> BluesKaj: the system is not bound to 2 users, but to all members
<lotuspsychje> if i bake a bread for someone, i get 60 LETS and be able to spend the coins on every service/item from any member
<BluesKaj> yes understood  but, how is value of bread or paint determined?
<lotuspsychje> there's also a min/max value of -2500 and + 2500 coins
<lotuspsychje> ah
<lotuspsychje> yes, we agreed that 60 LETS is around 10 euro
<lotuspsychje> and 1 hour work
<lotuspsychje> but users can choose, how much value something is
<lotuspsychje> if you think your bread is worth 120 LETS because you had lots of work..
<BluesKaj> so they can bargain as well
<lotuspsychje> BluesKaj: sure, but the other guy has to approve it also of course
<lotuspsychje> BluesKaj: its a bit like trading
<BluesKaj> well that's bargaining :-)
<lotuspsychje> and its not like money
<lotuspsychje> its still virtual right
 * BluesKaj nods
<lotuspsychje> if i fix an pc fomr someone, i ask 120 lets
<lotuspsychje> but that didnt cost me nothing
<lotuspsychje> but i can buy 2 breads with it
<lotuspsychje> (example)
<BluesKaj> the someons has to supply the parts then if needed
<lotuspsychje> yeah the parts have to be bought of course
<lotuspsychje> thats where members ask a bit more LETS for the supplys
<lotuspsychje> BluesKaj: its a good system, try to find your local LETS groups :p
<lotuspsychje> our city has 350 members
<lotuspsychje> and get daily emails with items and services
<BluesKaj> even thought it was invented here in Canada, I've never heard of it
<BluesKaj> though , rather
<lotuspsychje> BluesKaj: canada started with this indeed
<BluesKaj> 'sounds like a hippie comune thing to me, British Columbia had lots of them even inn the 80's
<lotuspsychje> lol
<lotuspsychje> trading is hot these days, has nothing do with flower power anymore
<lotuspsychje> you see alternative systems everywhere in the world
<BluesKaj> avoiding goods and services value added taxes our gov't imposed on us
<lotuspsychje> lets bypasses the taxes, because its actualy trading
<BluesKaj> our VAT in Canada aka GST
<BluesKaj> tax on tax
<BluesKaj> even o9ur electric bills have it
<daftykins> :(
<lotuspsychje> the working suck3rs we are...
<lotuspsychje> trapped in a political debt system
<lotuspsychje> good luck we have ubuntu, a free Os at least
<BluesKaj> I'm retired on fixed income and my pensions aren't indexed to keep up with inflation, well not much anyway
<lotuspsychje> BluesKaj: enjoy your freedom, money comes on 2nd place :p
<BluesKaj> I'm enjoying not having to go to work that's for sure :-)
<BluesKaj> I have enough to keep me busy around the house
<lotuspsychje> and leave the house too sometimes :p ?
<BluesKaj> yup
<BluesKaj> I still play in a rock/blues band , so i do get out of the house quite a lot
<lotuspsychje> thats the spirit cowboy
<BluesKaj> not exactly a cowboy but....
<BluesKaj> ok , calling it a day ...laterz
<Johnny_Linux> s k y n n a r d
<Johnny_Linux> lol
<lotuspsychje> :p
<lotuspsychje> nite nite
<lotuspsychje> dont do what i wouldnt do Johnny_Linux
#ubuntu-discuss 2015-07-18
<lotuspsychje> good morning to all
<Bashing-om> shift change !
<lotuspsychje> Bashing-om: greetings mate
<lotuspsychje> 4h37 early morning here :p
<OerHeks> Sorry, i am late
<OerHeks> :-D
<lotuspsychje> OerHeks: morning mate :p
<OerHeks> hi lotus and Bashing-om
<lotuspsychje> awake, or still awake?
<OerHeks> still away i am afraid
<Bashing-om> lotuspsychje: A big hello to you also. be 9h39 here ( 2139 : 16:39 GMT +1 DST ) // In the winding down process for me .
<lotuspsychje> ouch OerHeks  :p
<OerHeks> awake*
<lotuspsychje> !life
<ubot5> life is something very few people know about in this channel - and anyway, it's probably offtopic, perhaps you want to try #ubuntu-offtopic
<OerHeks> today i got devoiced in #debian, prompted an ubuntu wiki :-D
<Bashing-om> Har har ^^
<lotuspsychje> OerHeks: explain?
<OerHeks> someone had trouble playing dvd's, and i didn'tnotice i was in #debian
<lotuspsychje> omg
<OerHeks> yeah, that channel is not alright
<lotuspsychje> i had something likewise the other day in ##cars
<lotuspsychje> asked a car question...and got banned lol
<OerHeks> hmm 7.5 near Santa Cruz Islands
<Bashing-om> OerHeks: 'devoiced' meaning you are no longer allowed to communicate ? YUK !
<lotuspsychje> quake?
<OerHeks> not the sun-eruptions, but the black spots on the sun cause lots of disturbance
<OerHeks> jups
<lotuspsychje> the world is trembling, and heating up extremely
<OerHeks> http://quakes.globalincidentmap.com/
<lotuspsychje> 45+ degrees in some counties
<OerHeks> I think there is going to be an other iceage, heating up should also quicky go down
<Bashing-om> famines and wars have already begun, people have got to eat .
<lotuspsychje> yeah ice age, readed an article on that once
<Bashing-om> Done for this session, Yall take care .
<OerHeks> :-)
<lotuspsychje> nite Bashing-om
<Bashing-om> see ya in my 'morning' .. later.
<lordievader> Good morning.
<BluesKaj> Hiyas all
<lotuspsychje> good afternoon
<lotuspsychje> !14.10
<ubot5> Ubuntu 14.10 (Utopic Unicorn) was the 21st release of Ubuntu. Support for this release will end in July 2015. For more info see !eol, !upgrade and http://ubottu.com/y/utopic
<BluesKaj> hey lotuspsychje
<lotuspsychje> hi BluesKaj
<OerHeks> 9.10 man man man
<BluesKaj> OerHeks,  think has an old pc at least he gpu is
<BluesKaj> the
<OerHeks> Yes, that is true, but we need not to help with this.
<OerHeks> also when someone has flash issues, i say flash is dead :-D
<BluesKaj> OerHeks,  i nhope you're righjt about "flash is dead", it's been such a pita over the yrs
<BluesKaj> 'scuse my spelling , but I'm a bit excited about my daughter sending pics on her trip on the camino in Spain...we were worried about her since we haven't heard from her in a week
<OerHeks> If a browser activly blocks it, my idea is that this will not go undone, even when adobe makes a safe version.
<OerHeks> yeah, did she survive the 40'C ??
<OerHeks> or was it below that prediction
<BluesKaj> it was rainy the first day
<OerHeks> oehhh swell
<BluesKaj> seems ok now
<OerHeks> nice to hear that man!
<OerHeks> But about the flash issue, one thing that could happen is that MS goes on with flash, while apple and us go the open drm road. also ATI comes with drivers supporting drm routines, i understand
<OerHeks> cookies need to go too
<BluesKaj> my understanding is that MS wants HTML5 implemented as soon as possible, they aren't flash fans either
<BluesKaj> OerHeks, it will be interesting to see how the new MS browser "Edge" handles web video.
<BluesKaj> on W10
<OerHeks> EriC^^, if we were in business, you just earned $250 :-D
<OerHeks> data recovery
<EriC^^> lol :D
#ubuntu-discuss 2015-07-19
<lotuspsychje> good morning
 * ObrienDave waves
<lordievader> Good morning.
<BluesKaj> Hey folks
<OerHeks> Yesterday someone came in #ubuntu to resolve a broken video of a balloon .. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-33588229
#ubuntu-discuss 2016-07-18
<OerHeks> ~~~~~~/\~~~~~~\0/~~~~~
<daftykins> :D
<daftykins> morning sir
<daftykins> http://i.imgur.com/d6d1cos.jpg
<daftykins> have a look at some RAM!
<daftykins> http://i.imgur.com/Orfn61P.jpg
<daftykins> more fun
<BluesKaj> Hiyas all
<pauljw> that's interesting, i've been banned in #ubuntu??  hmmm...
<OerHeks> odd, ask in #ubuntu-ops pauljw
<Bashing-om> pauljw: I can not imagine such a thing happening .., #ubuntu-ops for a sit-rep ?
<pauljw> heheh, i just asked in there.
<daftykins> :O
<daftykins> perhaps you were caught chatting to me!
<Bashing-om> daftykins: Paul left .. did you insult him ?
<pauljw> okay, was my vpn ip address
<pauljw> lol daftykins
<daftykins> XD
<daftykins> i hope to never send any of you away!
<daftykins> though my pics of old kit could get annoying eventually ;D
<pauljw> not to me they won't
<Bashing-om> Nope on pics, me like too .
<OerHeks> more pics please
<OerHeks> even my silly flowers are allowed
<OerHeks> * they are drying now, upside down
<pauljw> :)
<daftykins> i wanted to confirm a PSU wasn't faulty today, since i knew the mobo in the case was faulty... i took out the motherboard tray from the server type machine and plugged it in on top :)
<daftykins> https://www.dropbox.com/sh/zdt3o7t609awl2m/AAC7rzWvIQGyZzlW9RlVGZ3oa?dl=0
<daftykins> i love working with cases that have mobo trays
<daftykins> just moved a couple more in there, they should appear on a refresh
<pauljw> neat, never had such a setup.
<daftykins> that machine used to be a small company's file server, they were contractually obligated to run a hideous Facilities Management product that required MS SQL server and a Windows Server OS :/
<daftykins> looks like i had to go quite high end with the motherboard to get one with chipset RAID at the time - two 320GB WD's are in RAID-1 for the OS, both have power on hours of 40,000 now :)
<daftykins> that's causing them to be flagged as bad in SMART
<pauljw> ah
<daftykins> the RAID controller, one of my faves, is hooked up to 4 x 1.5TB disks - or was until one popped and has been replaced with a 2TB WD Red which is still in warranty even now! i may keep it for myself
<daftykins> though my own RAID is already 6 x 2TB
<pauljw> :)
<daftykins> anywho, thinking if i put that server setup's board into the case beneath it i can sell that as desktop #3
<daftykins> i can only give it 4GB RAM though, boo!
<pauljw> 4G is doable for a desktop
<daftykins> it won't have a license that one, so perhaps it'll get a Linux!
<daftykins> as lovely as server 2003 R2 x64 would be to push upon someone... a fully EOL OS XD
<pauljw> :)
<pauljw> OerHeks, here's what we're watching grow from our front porch these days...
<pauljw> http://imgur.com/a/UHcR4
<OerHeks> You can watch it grow too, i guess
<daftykins> nice!
<Bashing-om> pauljw: Coyottes make good neighbors ?
<pauljw> heheh, yeah they're around, keep the rifle handy.
<daftykins> i was hunting some in a game the other day!
<Bashing-om> Yeah, have that here .. so 'fraid they are going to lure my dogs off .. thay are not big and bad enough to take care of themselves .
<pauljw> the other day my wife and i got to see a doe and her young fawn playing in the fields, he was acting just like a puppy, romping around, kicking his hind legs up...
<Bashing-om> pauljw: Yeah .. cute sight .. We used to have turkeys also .. I miss seeing them .. must have all got shot out .
<pauljw> :(
<pauljw> we still have tons of turkey, too.
#ubuntu-discuss 2016-07-19
<pauljw> gnite all
<ducasse> morning all
<Bashing-om> ducasse: WB .. good help is back !
<ducasse> looks quiet in #ubuntu...?
<Bashing-om> Yeah .. I think things now are slow .. just finished up a couple .
<tsimonq2> #lubuntu gets one or two people asking for help a day MAX
<ducasse> #xubuntu too, when i was following that. most people seem to just use #ubuntu
<Bashing-om> The ops ^ must have alarms set to alert when there is incoming .
<ducasse> most likely, although in clients like weechat (which i use) it's really easy to see at a glance which channels have new messages
<Bashing-om> OK, got to slow for me, going to quit for this session , later .
<ducasse> who deals with the ubottu triggers - do i just ask in #ubottu-ops?
<ducasse> #ubuntu-ops :)
<DJones> ducasse: Pretty much best thingto do, or if you have a suggestion, you can prompt the bot with it which  just forwards it to #ubuntu-ops
<DJones> !factoid
<DJones> Hmmh, no bot here anyway
<ubot5> Hi! I'm #ubuntu-discuss's favorite infobot, you can search my brain yourself at http://ubottu.com/factoids.cgi | Bot channels and general info: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/Bots | Make a clone of me: /msg ubot5 botclone
<DJones> Just slow, can't think of the format to automatically send factoid changes though
<ducasse> DJones: i think i might have that somewhere, if an edit is the same as new entries?
<DJones> Yeah, I think pretty much, either way doing !factoid is .... normally gets forwarded to -ops anyway for review
<tgm4883> nacc: lol, I think we know why
<ducasse> i just noticed a couple of typos in !cloak, thought i might as well fix them.
<nacc> tgm4883: :)
<DJones> !cloak
<ubot5> cloak is To get any kind of cloak (Ubuntu member or any other kind) you first need to set up your nick as detailed in this FAQ: http://freenode.net/kb/answer/registration - For Ubuntu member cloaks, ask in #ubuntu-irc and provide your laundpad page. For unaffiliated ones, ask in #freenode.
<DJones> ducasse: I'd just do !cloak is .... with the amended text, I think that will get sent to #ubuntu-ops, probably better to do it in a pm with ubottu
<ducasse> ok, i'll do that right away. these things just annoy me :)
<ducasse> done, i think :)
<DJones> Yeah I can see it being looked at and fixed
<nacc> tgm4883: am i missing something obvious? i'm only on my first cup of coffee
<tgm4883> no that sounds all right
<tgm4883> I'm only half paying attention, rolling out some new puppet code
<nacc> tgm4883: ok, it still feels like what they are doing is backwards somehow
<nacc> tgm4883: ooh, i might have a question for you re: puppet in a bit then :)
<nacc> tgm4883: we'll see if i can figure out ruby on my own first :)
<tgm4883> nacc: sure, let me know
<tgm4883> Bah, speaking of temp folders, I just found a windows server with a 17.8GB temp folder...
<tgm4883> microsoft, why are you so bad at things!
<daftykins> actually, any program or installer can dump to temp - so it's not MS' fault
<daftykins> standard maintenance can be for glancing over the disk cleanup wizard or similar
<tgm4883> daftykins: a bunch of cab_XXXX files though on a windows server
<tgm4883> I don't even see disk cleanup on win server
<daftykins> should do
<tgm4883> There's not a ton on this server, just apache tomcat and IIS, AV, and some small utilites such as notepad++ and check_mk
<daftykins> eww.
<nacc> tgm4883: ok, so i'm trying to fix LP: #1570472 in a better way so racb will sponsor it :) basically, want to state that any version of ubuntu >= 15.04 should use systemd in puppet. But since it's a hash being passed to defaultfor, I don't think that's trivially possible?
<ubot5> Launchpad bug 1570472 in puppet (Ubuntu) "Set systemd as default service provider" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1570472
<tgm4883> nacc: yea I'm not sure of a way to do that since it's coming in as a hash
<nacc> tgm4883: yeah, i thnk the "right" way is to do it like kylog suggests in https://github.com/puppetlabs/puppet/pull/5069#issuecomment-230647533
<nacc> tgm4883: but i'm not enough of a ruby expert to know how :)
<tgm4883> Ruby isn't my forte
<nacc> tgm4883: hadn't written anything in it myself until this PR: https://github.com/puppetlabs/puppet/pull/5009 :)
<nacc> tgm4883: thanks for the input, though!
<Bashing-om> pauljw: o/ ... WB to the mad house :)
<pauljw> hey Bashing-om, ty :)
<Bashing-om> Reading IRC, sure beats reading the depressing newspapers !
<pauljw> heheh, so true
<daftykins> =]
<pauljw> hi daftykins :)
<daftykins> hey sir! how goes it?
<pauljw> doing well, you?
<daftykins> western europe seems broken right now, it was 90 degrees here today O_O that never happens!
<daftykins> it's hanging onto 24 deg C overnight too :(
<pauljw> ouch, maybe i should go shut off my SUV...
<daftykins> is it heating Guernsey!? :)
#ubuntu-discuss 2016-07-20
<pauljw> doubt it... :)
<Bashing-om> Andddd .. here's OerHeks :)
<OerHeks> it is too hot to sleep, and 3 dogs think i am a cool guy
<OerHeks> and no, i have no AC, only the natural windflow
<daftykins> :D same here
<daftykins> well, i am not as popular with dogs!
<daftykins> thankfully there seems to be a breeze coming through, now - taking the heat away
<memguy> I am wondering how apt-get traverses to find a .deb or tar.gz source file
<memguy> For example something in the sources.list file like this
<memguy> deb http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ trusty main restricted multiverse universe
<memguy> My understanding is it follows to the http or https site in this cases   http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/
<memguy> then can look in main , restrict , multiverse , universe  but when i go there i see files but not the .deb or .tar.gz files  In the Sources file it does have a directory ../../pool which if you traverse that the deb files and tar.gz/xz are in
<memguy> So my question is  how is apt-get traversing the site to find the proper files. I would say its hardcoded to always go to the distro directory then to the version in there but from there not sure probably looks at some Package.gz file and then goes back up a few directories because the package.gz file told it to check /pool sub directories?
<memguy> I just confused about what metafiles it uses to get to the .deb
<memguy> Humm interesting enough it has Vcs-Browser , Vcs-Git  paths to git repo's seems as one can git the source in that way as well
<memguy> Its weird because i think all the versions trusty .... lucid,..etc uses the same pool which has the 4 main sections  main multiverse restrict universe
<daftykins> yes the release name is after a space after the URL, so it's a parameter
<daftykins> you can download and read the contents of the packages.gz
<memguy> ya but i have an issue in tracing because there are many different packages.gz
<memguy> Also the difference between Sources , package.gz, Contents-i386.gz
<daftykins> i don't really see what you can gain
<daftykins> i don't have a clue though :)
<daftykins> i think there's an #ubuntu-packaging - maybe they know - or you can go to the horse's mouth and talk to debian folks
<memguy> I just wanted to trace out where apt-get goes to find the packages  how its going to the correct stuff and it seems the .deb files are not seperated by version there all under the /pool directory i think some how the selection of which package.gz restricts what version goes to what deb file in the pool subdir but haven't figured it out yet
<daftykins> well they're all ranked by version # of course
<memguy> ?
<memguy> deb http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ trusty main restricted multiverse universe
<daftykins> so you only get offered the latest version e.g. "apt-cache policy <package>"
<memguy> a line like this goes to distro/trusty folder on the http address above but from there it has a choices to uses either main , restrict , multiverse , universe subdir to get a package.gz
<daftykins> not choices, they're all grabbed
<memguy> But before the in /dists/trusty one has contents-i386.gz
<daftykins> right that sounds like 32-bit
<memguy> it is
<memguy> is it using contents or package or when is it using what one
<daftykins> why don't you try in the places i suggested?
<memguy> Am trying it now see if anybody knows. On a related question though that you may know  under the main , universe,  ... 4 folders  i have binary-i386 , binary-amd64 , debian-installer , i18n , source curious what those subfolders do
<memguy> My thought was the first 2 selected by apt-get depending on your arch  , next one is if your using a gui installer like software center , but haven;t figured out i18n
<memguy> source is if you selected a source package download instead of a deb like a tar.gz/xz source
<memguy> So it must be hard coded in the apt-get to check these directory  specific subfolders to get the proper package.gz file for the 4  dir main restrict multiverse universe
<daftykins> i don't really see why a GUI installer would need to obtain a different package
<daftykins> well yeah, if you boot a live session it only has main so you can't get all packages
<memguy> Seems like  i18n is the  gui deb installers information in different languages
<daftykins> sometimes i want something like lm-sensors which is in universe, so i edit sources.list then update to get that package
<memguy> i understand that you would have to check off or update your source.list with multiverse or universe before those deb become available
<memguy> I am talking about though figuring out these subdir under each of the 4 branches main , multiverse, universe, restrict
<daftykins> yep still the wrong place (:
<ducasse> morning all!
<daftykins> howdy o/
<ducasse> morning daftykins!
<daftykins> how goes?
<ducasse> good, thanks - you? still persona non grata in #ubuntu?
<daftykins> yep not bad here thanks! heat wave here the last couple of days, so glad it's calmed down now - got a wonderful breeze coming through the windows :D
<daftykins> indeed, spared the brainache i am
<ducasse> hasn't been very hot up here in norway, thankfully. right now it's a bit clouded and no wind. my cat is really pleased it isn't raining :)
<Bashing-om> I do ing a pauljw ; gnite all .
<memguy> curious what is the contents-i386.gz for when you have the package.gz files ?
<memguy> in the repo
<memguy> the sizes is much larger 20 times as much as a package.gz
<daftykins> ducasse: :D
<daftykins> memguy: please just ask in the far more appropriate places mentioned rather than repeating ad nauseum
<memguy> well just egar to figure this out
<ducasse> memguy: what are you trying to do?
<memguy> trace apt-gets logic
<ducasse> memguy: but _why_?
<memguy> and get a better understanding of how the repo's are structured
<memguy> ,what software they uses to create them
<ducasse> memguy: are you trying to build one?
<memguy> no i already have mirrored on or started to in the passed i know how to do that. I am more curious on how they actually started creating them
<ducasse> memguy: then go ask the people who maintain the repos.
<ducasse> or read the source to apt-*
<memguy> is it using a repo software behind the scene  i see git in the package files  and can git clone those git address but the deb files just look like there on traditional ftp folder structure
<ducasse> i told you, ask the repo maintainers.
<memguy> that apt get uses the package.gz files to find them
<memguy> where are they on the irc
<ducasse> ask alis.
<memguy> where what channel
<ducasse> !alis
<ubot5> alis is a services bot that can help you find channels. Read "/msg alis help list" . For more help or questions relating to alis, please join #freenode. Example usage: /msg alis list #ubuntu or /msg alis list http
<BluesKaj> Hiyas all
<Ben64> OerHeks has the power of foresight?
<OerHeks> no, in front of the spamrun i guss
<OerHeks> network spam and channel spam, never seen this combined before
<Ben64> what do you mean network spam
<OerHeks> from an other channel i guess, see these screenshots, http://imgur.com/a/d1cIb and http://imgur.com/a/dly7D
<OerHeks> 2nd one has got channel name after the user
<Ben64> oh weird
<ducasse> these people need to have their fingers broken so they can't type :)
<OerHeks> these are just lonely people
<ducasse> possibly.
<OerHeks> if they didn't spam just now, they might have done something really stupid to get their own wikipedia page.
<tgm4883> man backwards really lives up to his name....
<pauljw> amazing the lengths someone will go to wreck a perfectly good OS
<OerHeks> well, a 32 bit plugin can wreck something good ..
<pauljw> :)
<Ben64> thats what happens when you ignore messages
<OerHeks> !!! don't do this !!! --> *
<ubot5> OerHeks: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :)
<OerHeks> ctrl c ctrl v and hit enter, see what happens
<OerHeks> ubot5, ok, i don't think
<ubot5> OerHeks: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :)
<pauljw> heheh
<nacc> wow, just amazing that some people wonder why `<must be sudo> rm -r /system/dir` breaks things...
<pauljw> :)
<Ben64> yep
<tgm4883> nacc: I really need to get banned from that channel
<nacc> tgm4883: i'm feeling the same way lately :)
<tgm4883> nacc: however, if we do, that just leaves those other people in there...
<tgm4883> this is your classic no win situation
<nacc> tgm4883: it's like an echo chamber
<DArqueBishop> You know, I felt like telling that guy that if I was the "caffe owner" and I found out what he was trying to do, I'd kick him out without a refund.
<nacc> also, "i'm using free wifi in a cafe, i want it to be faster, so help me kick other people off the free wifi"
<nacc> wth
<nacc> sorry, !language > me
<DArqueBishop> nacc: sometimes no other words suffice.
<tgm4883> seriously, IDK why people think they are so entitled to stuff
<tgm4883> is this a new thing, or am I just noticing it more now in #ubuntu
<nacc> i think it flows from the popularity increase, which is generally a good thing
<nacc> and there are bugs to fix, without question
<nacc> but users don't want to find / file bugs :)
<nacc> or they want to just apport to file them, and it leads to so many garbage bugs that are unfixable
<tgm4883> apport has so much potential, but it's way too locked down I think
<nacc> it's a hard problem to solve, too -- how do you magically get the exact data you need to reproduce a bug
<nacc> "magically" :)
<tgm4883> nacc: Back at UDS one year, I recall a talk by Evan(?) where developers could see the bug from apport, figure out they needed additional info/logs, then the next time apport was filing a duplicate bug on that, it would see it needed the additional info and gather it for the developers
<tgm4883> nacc: however, I've never seen that in practice
<nacc> tgm4883: yeah, there is a mechanism to change what gets collected, I think
<nacc> tgm4883: i don't know how it works, though
<nacc> teward has done something like that with some of the common nginx bugs
<nacc> ah yes, "100000 problems"
<Mihasi> I guess lots of people come in here with that kind of questions?
<Mihasi> Same as with any support IRC probably.
<nacc> Mihasi: i think there was a shipped bug with the software center; but statements like "there are <insert number> of problems" when they have only found 1 or 2... just frustrating :)
<Mihasi> Yeah, seems a bit hyperbolic. :P
<Mihasi> I do understand the feeling of "100000 problems" though. It can feel like that if you're coming from an OS that was tested on your hardware.
<Mihasi> I recently made the switch again, and while Ubuntu's MUCH more user-friendly than it was last time I tried using Linux full-time, I remember the pain.
#ubuntu-discuss 2016-07-21
<BluesKaj> Hiyas all
<pauljw_vm> hi BluesKaj
<BluesKaj> Hi pauljw_vm
<pauljw_vm> :)
<BluesKaj> kvm-qemu?
<pauljw_vm> virtualbox
<BluesKaj> ok
<pauljw_vm> i did try kvm-qemu, but prefer vb. :)
<OerHeks> what bank allows personel use mint?
<DArqueBishop> OerHeks: that's just one of many things about his story that make me wonder if he's trolling us.
<BluesKaj> DArqueBishop, who's story ?
<DArqueBishop> BluesKaj: pleaseeheelp in #ubuntu main.
<BluesKaj> DArqueBishop, perhaps , but I was having a similar problem with X a few days ago, but this was on yakkety
 * DArqueBishop nods.
<OerHeks> oke, i am still on 15.10 too ...
<OerHeks>  :-D
<BluesKaj> never did figure out what it was , a reboot worked
<BluesKaj> didn't bother with logs , there are so many little bugs happening
<DArqueBishop> OerHeks: yeah, but 15.10 isn't EOL. ;-)
<DArqueBishop> If I'm running a Linux distro on a laptop for work, you can be sure I'll be running a version that isn't EOL.
<nacc> OerHeks: DArqueBishop: you've got a week :)
<DArqueBishop> nacc: the Ubuntu VM I have running is 16.04. ;-)
<nacc> DArqueBishop: :)
<nacc> have we seen a lot more noise in #ubuntu today with 16.04.1 out?
<DArqueBishop> It seems to be the same as before.
<nacc> good :)
<OerHeks> no real 14.04 upgrade issues yet, brace yourselves
<pauljw_vm> just received my email from System76 advising me that 16.04.1 is now available and approved for upgrade.  Not going to do it, but thought I'd pass that along... :)
<Bashing-om> pauljw_vm: Yepper .. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/XenialXerus/ReleaseNotes#Official_flavours . Awaiting all the mirror sites to sync up .
<pauljw_vm> :)
<BluesKaj> yeah, today is upgrade from 14.04 to 16.04 day, officially
<BluesKaj> 16.04.1 actually
<Bashing-om> gonna wait some more to install 16.04.1 .. 1) Have not purchased the SSD, 2) Wait for the pounding on the servers to lessen .
<BluesKaj> rain, hail and wind warnings here...it's so dark I can barely read the KB
<Bashing-om> Heber Springs, AR: Temp: 94 F (34 C) ~ Clear ~ Heat index: 110 F (43 C) ~ Humidity: 60% ~ Alert: Heat Advisory ~ Observed: Thu 21, 11:56
<BluesKaj>  it was 29C , dropped to 25 very quickly
<BluesKaj> Bashing-om, ugh!
<Bashing-om> The AC is my new best friend :)
<BluesKaj> yup, can't live without it
<Bashing-om> BluesKaj: We are at the end of the power grid .. and there are those times there is no enough amperage left to run the AC .. yuk !
<BluesKaj> Bashing-om, bummer :/
<ducasse> why is it that people who can't use a pastebin think they are qualified to 'tune' their systems?
<pauljw_vm> lol
<BluesKaj> we don't see temps much over 30C/87F
<Bashing-om> Honestly, I had some experience with softwares when I migrated to (k)ubuntu; I have broke my 'buntus a bunch re-learning .
<ducasse> Bashing-om: remember when i started out with slackware, repeatedly broke my system in truly horrible ways - great learning experience :)
<pauljw_vm> same when i started
<ducasse> emptied out /dev once, that was fun.
<Bashing-om> ducasse: I also messed about with slackware as a server install .. - a friend introduced me to (k)ubuntu desktop .. I have never had other thoughts than 'buntu since . So much easier .
<ducasse> agree, it's a lot more streamlined. i still love slackware, though.
<pauljw_vm> i couldn't get thru my thick skull the importance of sticking with what was in the repos...  broke pclinuxos so many times i can't count, then i learned how to build from source and was able to play without total destruction.  built vmware and have been hooked on vm's ever since.
<BluesKaj> .discovered kubuntu in 2005 , stuck with the kde desktop ever since , even on other distros
<Bashing-om> Me minimalistic minded .. KISS .. Only have what I use .. and use what I have .
<pauljw_vm> nothin' wrong with that
<EriC^^> hi
<EriC^^> all
<Bashing-om> Thus far, I have been fortunate .. or unlucky .. Have yet to have the need in 'buntu to compile from source .
<pauljw_vm> hey EriC^^
<EriC^^> hey pauljw_vm :)
<pauljw_vm> Bashing-om, i haven't either
<Bashing-om> EriC^^ EriC^^ , he's our man .., comes to EFI booting ... if he can not do it .. no one can .
<EriC^^> lol Bashing-om
<EriC^^> you are great poet
<Bashing-om> pauljw_vm: I have grown to learn .. installed applications .. if there is a need " it's in the repo " .
<EriC^^> a little exaggerative but poetic and nice, ty
<BluesKaj> hey EriC^^ keeping the new recruits happy ?
<Bashing-om> EriC^^: Plagurized (sp) .. I think I can get away with that in this instance .
<pauljw_vm> Bashing-om, i agree, linux has come a long way in the last decade.
<EriC^^> BluesKaj: not really, i haven't been that active in the channel lately though i miss it
<BluesKaj> EriC^^, guess I should have said, new recruits in #ubuntu
<EriC^^> BluesKaj: yeah that's what i meant :)
<BluesKaj> ok :-)
<BluesKaj> been mucking about with a rpi 3 here, can't make up my mind what to use it for ...mostly experimentation with different OSs so far, but nothing really grabs my interest up to this point
<ducasse> BluesKaj: did you look at riscos? i thought it was kind of charming :) (in a retro way)
<BluesKaj> perhaps make it a kodi box, but my vpn .ovpn config files error out and I don't want the exposure that the addons give your IP
<BluesKaj> ducasse, was checking riscos yesterday but it's over a yr old
<ducasse> BluesKaj: they're probably short on developers..
<BluesKaj> librelec isn't nearly as good at connecting to sites , over 80% of them fail
<ducasse> i use an rpi2 for kodi, too bad about lack of h.265 support, though.
<BluesKaj> kodi by itselfd is much better in my experience
<ducasse> what do you run kodi on? ubuntu?
<BluesKaj> I'm thinking of going back to raspbian with kodion it
<BluesKaj> I had kodi on kubuntu for a while, but it really is a clunky app IMO
<ducasse> i've been thinking of some sort of minimal setup with just autologin + kodi, but openelec works well enough so far.
<BluesKaj> i prefer to use a vpn with kodi ,. sure hope I can fix that version problem I have with .ovpn files on raspbian
<ducasse> i can get that, but mine just reads files from my zfs server.
<BluesKaj> I just wanrt kodi for internrt tv feeds , i prefer to have direct access to te outboard media filed drive.
<BluesKaj> files
<BluesKaj> ...it's dark in here the thunderclouds are sticking around
<OerHeks> feel the force, luke
<ducasse> i rarely use kodi for internet tv, but it seems to work. we were expecting thunder here from today and out the week, but it's still fine..
<Bashing-om> ducasse: Buy them books, send them to school ( tan2 )... and what do they do ???
<pauljw_vm> eat the covers...
<ducasse> Bashing-om: this is like pulling teeth...
<Bashing-om> Yeah ,, got one similar on the forum .. been 3 days just to get an edit to grub .
<ducasse> "just autostart it from the openbox config" - "what?"
<ducasse> wth do you mean, "what"?
<ducasse> it's like trying to tell my cat not to walk on the keyboard.
<ducasse> ...and then he just left.
<OerHeks> bye cat
<ducasse> :)
<OerHeks> upgrade disappears, yeah right
<ducasse> much like the famous "i did nothing, this just happened"
<Bashing-om> ducasse: I go through the trouble to hunt up a opennox tutorial, and come back .. gone ! .. sheeshhh . Oh well .
<ducasse> Bashing-om: me too, i was just about to paste link on openbox autostart...
<Bashing-om> Good exercise, I reckon ..
<ducasse> people _really_ don't like being told to rtfm, but in some cases that is the answer they need.
<Bashing-om> Well .. gotta go to town .. be back soonest to the keyboard .. pick this back up then .
<ducasse> have fun :)
<BluesKaj> ok , switching to my stable install ...brb
<nacc> Ben64: sorry for their rudeness
<Ben64> who?
<nacc> Ben64: bulletxt|2
<Ben64> ah
<Ben64> people think upgrades are magical and will never cause anything to break
<nacc> yep
<Ben64> i wouldn't want to put myself through 10.04 -> 12.04 -> 14.04 -> 16.04 right now
<ducasse> Ben64: that sounds like an excellent opportunity for a fresh install...
<Ben64> that was my suggestion exactly
<OerHeks> it would prove reliability
<daftykins> are we finding 16.04's issues to have calmed down yet?
<OerHeks> sure, only unusual man-made-issues tonight
<daftykins> :D
<ducasse> daftykins: $deity, sometimes i really want to do what got you banned.
<daftykins> XD
<daftykins> i like to use Tux in place of that variable :)
<ducasse> daftykins: some people are just impossible to get through to, and it's worse when they hardly speak english...
<daftykins> mmm, it might sound bias but i don't even touch the ones that are a foreign language speaker, or worse yet translating IRC.
<ducasse> daftykins: i'm not a native english speaker myself :) but some people can't express themselves in english at all, but insist on using the english channel and get angry when you don't understand them.
<daftykins> *nod* i really meant those that show a lack of ability
<daftykins> those that learn English as a foreign language probably know it better than the native speakers
<Bashing-om> ducasse: Menawhile .. 2 weeks later : https://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2329956 .. My patience is wearing real thin . I gather myself .. and try try again .
 * daftykins takes a glance
<daftykins> Bashing-om: i like your avatar :D
<daftykins> my my, that is a messy one
<daftykins> "i did all these things, then there were colours on the screen and now i'm scared... hold me?"
<ducasse> :-D
<daftykins> yep i think the forums would be more stressful than IRC, they go off and do things themselves and you get to guess and pick up the pieces each time!
<ducasse> argh, i give up on this guy. it's like talking to a brick wall _while_ having teeth pulled.
<daftykins> that is a skilled dentist
<ducasse> now he's claiming that his i-want-to-do-something-very-unusual problem is ubuntu's fault, not his config's...
<OerHeks> cry cry " i dont have physical access i only have shell access"
<daftykins> XD
<OerHeks> 1st time on your bicycle was scary too, no?
<daftykins> wow just finished that thread, that guy does not follow at all
<daftykins> my palm would be so worn from all the facepalming
<ducasse> i couldn't read it all, too frustrating. you're a bigger person than me, Bashing-om
<daftykins> same here
<daftykins> he has the patience of a saint!
<ducasse> now this guy wants to use x applications, but he refuses to install a wm...
<daftykins> "damn it ducasse, i want my cake and i want to eat it - too!"
<ducasse> daftykins: and when i ask why, he answers 'because'.
<OerHeks> ducasse, all that efford for avoiding a wm ...
<ducasse> "i refuse to say what i want, but i insist you fix it!"
 * daftykins chuckles
<daftykins> time to throw that fish back in the river
<daftykins> let the bears further down have a go ;)
<ducasse> i've got to go to bed anyway, two minutes till midnight, and i was up early.
<daftykins> sleep well!
<daftykins> i wish you pleasant dreams of cooperative helpees
<ducasse> thanks :) ttyl.
#ubuntu-discuss 2016-07-22
<memguy> does anybody know what the difference between /dev/dri/card0 and /dev/fb0 i have used the framebuffer before but i never used the /dev/dri/card0 before from the looks of it they both uses the same LKM i915
<memguy> to drive it
<nacc> memguy: well, i mean one is a framebuffer and one is a direct rendering interface (different semantics)
<memguy> yeah but i am wondering what one does over the other or are they the equivalent of  just create a different name for the same major and minor number... i was wondering the difference in operations or features
<nacc> memguy: welll, they are different major and minor numbers?
<nacc> memguy: did you mean to ask in #ubuntu, btw; it's really a better question for ##linux
<memguy> so i would imagine different internal functions are called that have different code
<memguy> Do you know of any sample code that uses dri/card0 device  with its ioctls
<daftykins> sounds like an ace question for #linux
<memguy> curious is there a package to apt-get for make for the bsd makefiles not gnu make?
<daftykins> why not search and see?
<daftykins> also that's a support question, which as per topic is not really on here
<lotuspsychje> good morning to all
<daftykins> hello stranger :)
<Bashing-om> No longer holding my attention - slow - .. going horizontal for the duration . later .
<lotuspsychje> hey daftykins
<lotuspsychje> all ok with you?
<daftykins> yeah not bad cheers :) getting by as always
<daftykins> still on the fast track to becoming a top chef? :)
<lotuspsychje> haha
<lotuspsychje> im very needed in the kitchen
<lotuspsychje> a few of co-workers already quitting
<lotuspsychje> but in september i need less hours, so i can focus in my business aswell
<daftykins> ah har, september is go time
<lotuspsychje> i hope
<daftykins> lotuspsychje: would you mind typing out your address to me in PM again, just having trouble reading it from the envelope and still want to gift you some fudge :>
<lotuspsychje> oh sure
<lotuspsychje> daftykins: did you have uncle jobs again recently?
<daftykins> nah nothing since i found out his 20/1 ADSL2 wasn't fast enough to host OpenVPN
<daftykins> i got given a few old PCs to fix up though, got the best ones on a local trade site for sale now
<daftykins> i'll PM you the link for a glance ;)
<lotuspsychje> cool
<lotuspsychje> lookin good!
<daftykins> no contacts yet sadly
<daftykins> might have to drop the prices :> they are quite old
<lotuspsychje> my website is getting there slowly
<lotuspsychje> my admin has alot of work
<lotuspsychje> http://www.lotuscomputers.be/
<lotuspsychje> default skin to work with
<EriC^^> heyy
<daftykins> ooh neat :>
<daftykins> a wild EriC^^ ! hey sir \o
<EriC^^> hey daftykins :D
<lotuspsychje> hey EriC^^
<lotuspsychje> have to go breakfast and work guys
<lotuspsychje> later ; )
<ducasse> morning, all!
<daftykins> \o
<ducasse> \o daftykins, still here?
<daftykins> yep didn't even sleep XD
<daftykins> getting in a shower now
<ducasse> i had to get some sleep, hope my friend who didn't want a wm is gone :)
<daftykins> XD
<daftykins> i wish you luck!
<ducasse> daftykins: dear god, he's back.
<daftykins> for yours and the channels benefit, ignore :)
<ducasse> i'm doing just that - i can hardly understand him anyway. "Nested Xserver its how?"
<daftykins> oh dear that sounds like translator assistance for sure
<ducasse> i don't think so, his sentences are rarely longer than four or five words.
<daftykins> oof
<ducasse> he's obviously been given some sort of task at work, and is now trying to get someone one irc to hand-hold him through the entire process. every time a problem is fixed he jumps straight to the next one, he doesn't even try himself.
<ducasse> s/one irc/on irc/
<daftykins> :(
<daftykins> i helped someone like that once and only found out at the end, i felt bad
<ducasse> people like that can d**n well put in a little effort themselves.
<DJones> Just as a heads up, if people ask about why they don't get 16.04.1 offered as an upgrade yet, although the iso's & files are there, apparently the release doesn't get added to http://changelogs.ubuntu.com/meta-release for about another week until they're sure that no upgrade bugs show up
<ducasse> ah, good to know - thanks.
<daftykins> mmm the factoid potential is strong with this one
<BluesKaj> Hiyas all
<ducasse> morning BluesKaj
<BluesKaj> Hi ducasse
<BluesKaj> so what's happening today ?
<ducasse> lots of people wanting to upgrade from 14.04 to 16.04 being disappointed :)
<daftykins> i'm starting to develop a feeling that skipping every other LTS release can work
<daftykins> i did 10.04 -> 14.04 - maybe i'll leave 16.04 too and just await 18.04 for my servers :)
<daftykins> naturally i don't mean upgrades there, but clean install migrations
 * ducasse likes xenial - especially zfs
<daftykins> ;)
<daftykins> still rocking hardware RAID here, but it can't address newer than 4TB disks i think so maybe there's a ZFS setup in my future
<ducasse> zfs <3
<ducasse> soooo nice :)
<daftykins> folks would often say run mdadm, but the thing is, when the drama times come... when you're really in a pickle... do you want to be staring at logs and making sense of things, or do you want a lovely hardware controller holding your hand? i know what i preferred, but the time may come to venture out
<daftykins> can't say i understand the benefits to all that snapshotting business, it seems like a box of magic to me at the moment :D
<ducasse> it kind of _is_ magic - that's the beautiful thing :)
<daftykins> right, i must visit someone and press a couple of power buttons
<daftykins> it's tough work, but someone's got to do it!
<daftykins> catch you later \o
<ducasse> hope you get paid ;)
<daftykins> oh i do!
<daftykins> :D
<nacc> why are people installing 15.10 now all of a sudden?...
<OerHeks> nacc, that, i wondered since 15.04 went EOL, upgrding from 14.04 brings 15.10 ...
<OerHeks> xangua too, he noticed it first
<nacc> OerHeks: ah could be as 16.04.1 may not be rolled out yet
<OerHeks> for some mirrors i guess
<OerHeks> but users do funny things, because 'someone told them to'
<nicomachus> I apparently have it here, don't know when that upgrade happened though.
<nicomachus> I was on 16.04 yesterday. ran update and upgrade this morning but not dist-upgrade, and not I'm on 16.04.1
<nacc> nicomachus: yeah, the in-band update is normal
<nacc> nicomachus: and that's just an lsb_release update, iirc
<daftykins> ooooh man those buttons got pushed.
<daftykins> ducasse: don't worry, everything is safe now
<daftykins> the things are on.
<ducasse> push all the buttons! yay! ;)
<daftykins> \o/
<daftykins> hey there's a song for that (not necessarily to my taste)
<Bashing-om> Do not worry about the horses, just load the wagon .
<ducasse> daftykins: have you ever heard of andrej nebb?
<daftykins> ducasse: no sir
<ducasse> daftykins: he dropped a piano from 30m in oslo, because "he wanted to hear all the notes at once"
<daftykins> ah har
<ducasse> a proper artist, imo :)
<daftykins> are you getting similar users in #ubuntu today?
<ducasse> no, it's too hot for me to worry about them. i just drink tea and go somewhere else for a while :)
<ducasse> i'm prepping my zfs server for the upgrade to 16.04, i'm _really_ nervous about it not handling it well.
<daftykins> now that is a skill i could never develop
<daftykins> sudo walk-away
<ducasse> some of them you can spot from a mile off.
<daftykins> hehe, could you take a clonezilla image so you can revert in case bad things happen?
<ducasse> i'm basically doing a reinstall, the root disks smart status isn't entirely kosher.
<ducasse> it also doubles as mail server, so i'm kind of dependent on it not being down for long.
<daftykins> ooh-err
<daftykins> yay google apps :>
<ducasse> i'm too paranoid :)
<ducasse> not really, i just like having the control over things i depend on.
<tsimonq2> ^
 * tsimonq2 hides
<daftykins> that's fair enough
<ducasse> daftykins: big job today, or just power-cycling? :)
<Bashing-om> I am going to powr cycle - finish my nap - be back here soon as the nap is completed :)
<daftykins> hehe, well it's a wealthy guy so i go up there for small things and often find other things, the first was powering up two NASs, then a 14.04 file server didn't come back after reboot - very curious problem
<daftykins> Bashing-om: :D enjoy
<daftykins> it has its' network interface up and configured with a static IP, everything - it just won't send or receive packets
<ducasse> odd.
<daftykins> this server used to have the very same identical motherboard, but with one little issue... no OS could read the MAC address for its' onboard LAN adapter, so they would randomise one on boot
<daftykins> i might have hardcoded it at some point to stop making the router think infinite devices kept being registered :D not sure, haven't dug into it yet as i just jab ctrl+alt+del and it comes back
<ducasse> i certainly would have hardcoded it in that situation, seems like a reasonable thing to do. the poor router might become terribly confused otherwise :)
<nicomachus> Dell has some pretty good laptop deals right now: http://www.dell.com/us/business/p/precision-m7710-workstation/pd
<nicomachus> savings up to $350k!
<ducasse> hehe - nice laptop, but probably not worth 652k dollars :)
<daftykins> ducasse: :D i could even read the real one from inside the BIOS o0 very strange situation
<ducasse> daftykins: "firmwares do the darndest things"? :)
<daftykins> yep! annoyingly it was on the latest and last released version too, so i couldn't even update and hope
<ducasse> that _is_ annoying. manufacturers should be forced to provide updates for the lifetime of a device...
<daftykins> it's all good though, we're talking LGA775 there, we had an identical board in the secretary's system until i upgraded that to a haswell i3, so when the board died for good i just did a direct swap
<ducasse> ah, if they're that old it's understandable :)
<daftykins> it actually died when i went to change the CMOS battery, no joke
<daftykins> popped it out, put the new one in... never POST'd again
<daftykins> :D
<ducasse> sensitive board :)
<nacc> tgm4883: quick puppet question: what's the syntax, if there is one, for me to query what puppet thinks the current 'service' provider is?
 * daftykins always pictures punch and judy
<nacc> daftykins: :)
<tgm4883> nacc: does factor provide that?
<tgm4883> facter*
<nacc> tgm4883: Facter you mean?
<OerHeks> daftykins a Marillion fan?
<nacc> tgm4883: well, I don't know for sure, due to my lack of ruby/puppet knowledge. There are muliple service providers in lib/puppet/provider/ ... I can run with --debug --verbose and see it trying to see which satisfy if I tell it, e.g. `puppet apply "service { 'tftpd-hpa': ensure => stopped }"`. But really, I'm just trying to verify what puppet thinks provides "service" itself
<tgm4883> doesn't appear to be in facter
<daftykins> OerHeks: *google* the band? not familiar with them!
<tgm4883> nacc: IDK, might try asking in #puppet
<nacc> tgm4883: ok, thanks!
<OerHeks> On their album i first heard of Punch & Judy, not knowing it was the eq. of the dutch Jan-Klaassen & Katrijn
<tgm4883> nacc: it's possibly hard coded somewhere for the defaults bases on OS
<tgm4883> nacc: are you trying to do this programatically, or do you just need to know now?
<nacc> tgm4883: yeah, that's what i'm hacking (the puppet internals)
<nacc> tgm4883: basically, there are some defaultfor and confine constraints that i sort of understand; but i'm trying to get systemd to be the default provider on ubuntu if systemd is running; and otherwise if the upstart binaries are presnt, use upstart; otherwise fallback to initscripts
<tgm4883> hmm ok
<tgm4883> Alternatively, if you could default to systemd, users could override to upstart if they have that installed
<nacc> tgm4883: true; i wonder if we could just do that (in the ubuntu package)
<nacc> tgm4883: i'm not entirely sure if hte provider logic is used for more than just local detection (again puppet ignrance)
<nacc> tgm4883: that is, do i need to keep the existing satisfy-ing logic internally so it works to e.g., run puppet on 16.04 to manage a 14.04 node
<tgm4883> nacc: hmm, maybe if it's configurable in puppet.conf, not sure if it is
<tgm4883> nah, it's all going to be client side
<nacc> tgm4883: ok, so when you use puppet to run something remotely, it uses a `puppet` run on that victim?
<tgm4883> I would bet that the client is going to decide what it's default provider is
<tgm4883> puppet doesn't run stuff remotely?
<nacc> tgm4883: i know nthing about puppet :)
<nacc> tgm4883: i just am wanting to make sure i dont' breaking anything :)
<tgm4883> nacc: ok, so you've got two parts, the puppet server and the puppet client. Puppet client checks into the Puppet server and asks "what am I supposed to do". Puppet server generates a catalog for the client (telling it what to do) and gives that to the client
<tgm4883> the client then applies all those changes
<tgm4883> That's as remote as it gets, the puppet agent (client side) is always pulling the catalog from the server and applying it
<tgm4883> so for the provider, there are two possibilities
<nacc> tgm4883: ah! ok that clarifies quite a bit :)
<tgm4883> 1) The server specifies in the catalog "Use systemd"
<tgm4883> or 2) The server specifies in the catalog "Use <service provider>"
<tgm4883> I would bet on the second, although the first is possible
<tgm4883> When writing puppet code, you can specifiy the provider for a specific item
<nacc> tgm4883: right, so how does the server specify which service provider is appropriate for the client?
<tgm4883> also, providers don't have to be systemd/upstart. Could be bash, powershell, etc
<nacc> tgm4883: well, for "service" there's a limited set
<nacc> aiui
<tgm4883> The server would know what OS the client is running already, so it could theoretically do a lookup "ah, client is running Ubuntu 16.04, so use systemd for service provider"
<tgm4883> Although IMO, that makes less sense than to just say "client, restart this service using your default provider"
<tgm4883> Especially since the client would have to know how to interface with the service anyway
<nacc> tgm4883: right, but in either case, the client would be used to figure that out
<tgm4883> essentially yes
<nacc> tgm4883: ok, thanks!
<nacc> tgm4883: i mean i'll need to test this case too, just to be sure :)
<tgm4883> Who can fix factoids on ubottu
<tgm4883> !ltsupgrade
<ubot5> Users of 14.04 LTS will be offered the automatic upgrade when 16.04.1 LTS is released, which is scheduled for July 21st.
<tgm4883> wrong^
<DJones> !ltsupgrade
<ubot5> The automatic LTS upgrade from 14.04 to 16.04 was scheduled when 16.04.1 LTS was released on July 21st but was postponed for one week due to last bug testing.
<DJones> Just been adjusted
<tgm4883> thanks
<DJones> Wasn't me
<nacc> tgm4883: thanks for your help earlier; i think i finally have a "fix"; puppet is sort of annoying in that there are two providers (debian and systemd) that are very similar. And there doesn't seem to be a good way to have puppet tell me the 'suitable' providers (it can tell me all the known ones and how their suitability is determined)
<nacc> tgm4883: sorry to pester, but trying to see if there is a more elegant way; current puppet code does something (defaultfor ... :operatingsystemmajrelease => ["10.04", "12.04", "14.04", "14.10"] to detect upstart. I would like to have systemd's defaultfor be identical but invert that operator. AIUI, the => is defining a hash?
<tgm4883> nacc: no, => sets :operatingsystemmajrelease to the hash
<tgm4883> in theory, you could also do operatingsystemmajrelease => '14.04'
<nacc> tgm4883: yep, i think i figured it out
<nacc> tgm4883: the internals are confusing, but basically i just ad to use an { :exists => "/run/systemd/systemd" } => :false/:true accordingly
<nacc> *had to use
#ubuntu-discuss 2016-07-23
<Bashing-om> Enough is enoug .. Gnite.
<ducasse> good morning, all
<daftykins> \o
 * daftykins flips around the other side of the clock
<ducasse> hi daftykins, any plans for today?
<daftykins> mmm domestic chores i think, i also have a new Dell XPS13 9350 to reinstall for a client, but the next windows 10 build comes out on the 2nd of August so not much point doing it now other than for fun ;)
<daftykins> how about yourself?
<ducasse> not really, i'm trying to find someone who sells keyboards with mechanical cherry switches in international layouts - not easy :-(
<daftykins> ooh, which layout do you require? i just ordered one recently as my das keyboard has been irritating me with dropping some vowel presses
<daftykins> but i'm simple and only want a UK layout
<ducasse> i'd _love_ a das keyboard, but i'm so used to norwegian layout.
<daftykins> i had the blank one :)
<ducasse> i _ca_ handle us, but...
<ducasse> _can_
<daftykins> ah US is evil, they put the |\ above enter - and have that nasty single row enter
<ducasse> yes, but i've owned a lot of old unix workstations with us layout, so it's in muscle memory like the norwegian layout.
<daftykins> aww, corrupted!
<daftykins> >:)
<ducasse> i bought a razer black widow a while back, since that was available in my layout and the switches are nice, but a couple of keys hang a little. they tend to send two keys on one press.
 * ducasse wants his NeXTStation back
<daftykins> ouch that'd be as annoying as my das dropping the 'o'
<ducasse> the razer cost a fortune, and i only bought it a year ago. needless to say i'm not getting another.
<daftykins> https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B01F1VKG8S/ i have this on order right now
<ducasse> ah, steelseries use cherry? that could be an option - i've seen those here. thanks :)
<ducasse> have you tried them?
<daftykins> yep cherry red in there
<daftykins> i've only had blue on my das, so i'm not sure how it'll be - more of a 'gaming' choice allegedly
<ducasse> hmm. yes, i was hoping for blue, but maybe they have that as well. the razer is also a gaming keyboard, but just fine except for the hanging keys thing.
<daftykins> sadly not in that model, mmm
<daftykins> last time i bought my das many years ago it was from www.getdigital.de - you could have a browse there :)
<daftykins> i'm sure they'd sell a US layout das with blue, which could be one choice
<ducasse> yes, us layout is my fallback. but as you say it's evil :)
<daftykins> :D
<ducasse> uk layout could also be interesting, though, i didn't think of that first.
<daftykins> run with the cool kids! *whistle* - no bias whatsoever
<ducasse> which model das keyboard do you have?
<daftykins> it says "DASK3" on the back and was an ultimate, so blank - probably 7+ years old
<daftykins> quite a long time but i still feel they should last longer
<ducasse> +1. these switches can handle >50m keystrokes.
<daftykins> the keys it drops changes per day, so i think it's the controller board - but it's nothing i can do anything about, it seems
<ducasse> i'm looking at the 4 pro and the model s pro, the 4 pro has two usb 3.0 ports, which could be nice, i guess.
<ducasse> not that i _need_ two 3.0 ports when my desktop is ~30cm away :)
<daftykins> i could've always done without the hub :> i used to have power up issues until they shipped me a free USB 'Y' cable
<ducasse> when i think about it, i think my keyboard came with 1 year warranty...
<ducasse> these also look nice - http://codekeyboards.com/
<ducasse> in swedish layout, that's pretty close.
<daftykins> :>
<ducasse> the only difference is the Ã¸Ã¦Ã¥ keys, the swedes use Ã¶Ã¤Ã¥ instead. minor difference, really. i could live with that :)
<ducasse> the xps13 is a terrible thing to waste on windows 10, btw ;)
<daftykins> it's not, since no Linux can run properly on it without Dell PPAs
<ducasse> urgh :-(
<daftykins> and all Linux distros on nice laptops trash the battery life.
<daftykins> 2~,
<daftykins> ,
<daftykins> ,,
<daftykins> ,,,
<daftykins> ~~~
<daftykins> oops sorry, keyboard clean
<ducasse> :)
<daftykins> i'm having to get by on a membrane Dell cheapy for now :(
<ducasse> laptops and linux don't play well together, it's sad. probably hard to fix.
<daftykins> yeah, you need the 4.6 kernel i think for skylake to be happy, too - and certainly no ubuntu has that out of the box
<ducasse> no, i deliberately did not buy skylake when i bought a new desktop last summer, didn't feel like being a guinea pig.
<daftykins> that's a very sad reflection on Linux when you feel the need to avoid the bleeding edge
<ducasse> yup, i just wanted something that worked. still, i'm perfectly happy with the machine :)
<daftykins> aaah glorious clean desk \o/
<ducasse> yay! \o/
<daftykins> i treated myself recently with the replacement of my core 2 quad Q6600 desktop, now running a skylake i7-6700, 32GB DDR4, NVMe M.2 SSD and just recently an nvidia GTX 1070 8GB graphics card to cap it off
<ducasse> oooh, nice :) mine's just 4790k, 32g ddr3 and 2x samsung 850 evo sata..
<daftykins> ^_^ probably very little between them
<ducasse> the 6700 wasn't out when i bought mine, so i got the best single-core performance i could, which was the 4790k. it's plenty fast for me.
<ducasse> i don't have a discrete gpu, though, so your graphics performance just *might* be a teeeny bit better.
<ducasse> :-P
<daftykins> ^_^
<daftykins> that reminds me, now there are 1,920 cores there i was going to install folding@home to see just how impressively quick it handles some GPU compute jobs now
<ducasse> nvidia has linux sw for video encoding, don't they?
<daftykins> not sure
<ducasse> think i saw that mentioned somewhere.
<daftykins> the name nvenc rings a bell but i don't know what platforms it's on
<ducasse> that's one thing i'd like a decent gpu for, as it would probably be a lot faster than using the cpu. sw support is a problem, though.
<daftykins> i'm waiting for some software to catch up as it is, as my video player of choice doesn't know my card can do hardware decode of everything now :D
<daftykins> got some high bitrate HEVC samples here
<ducasse> which player are you using?
<daftykins> MPC-HC
<daftykins> mmm vacuuming in a warm house, eek
<ducasse> not fun, i did all the domestic stuff yesterday so today i'll just refuse to do all the other stuff i should have done long ago.
<daftykins> :D
<ducasse> i'm an idjit, btw, didn't consider just getting a nice keyboard with us layout and replace the keycaps...
<ducasse> daftykins: /me found! wasdkeyboards.com has mechanical keyboards, any kind of cherry switch, 105-key, any layout you want :) they can even get me one with tux on the windows keys :)
<ducasse> *happy dance*
<daftykins> *super keys ;)
<ducasse> whatever, i just think of it as mod4 ;)
<daftykins> platform agnostic \o/
<ducasse> this was so much easier than i thought i'm actually a bit sceptical ;) need to check a couple of reviews, see what the build quality is like...
<daftykins> seems to be US, so shipping might not be fun?
<ducasse> should be fine, i think. had some stuff shipped from the us around easter, took less than a week via normal airmail.
<BluesKaj> howdy all
<daftykins> \o
<pauljw_vm> Hi everyone
<daftykins> heya \o
<OerHeks> :-)
<pauljw_vm> :)
<ducasse> greetings and salutations! :)
<pauljw_vm> hi ducasse
#ubuntu-discuss 2016-07-24
<lotuspsychje> good morning to all
<lotuspsychje> !info linux-image-generic
<ubot5> linux-image-generic (source: linux-meta): Generic Linux kernel image. In component main, is optional. Version 4.4.0.31.33 (xenial), package size 2 kB, installed size 11 kB
<lotuspsychje> Description:	Ubuntu 16.04.1 LTS
<ducasse> morning!
<lotuspsychje> hey ducasse
<lotuspsychje> how are you?
<ducasse> good thanks - and you? enjoying a quiet sunday morning?
<lotuspsychje> yep got to work at 11
<ducasse> aha, i see. no rest for the wicked ;)
<lotuspsychje> :p
<lotuspsychje> upgraded to .1
<ducasse> me too, but i've still got one machine on wily. should try to fix that today...
<lotuspsychje> cool
 * daftykins carries in his cereal with his eyes still closed
 * ducasse hands daftykins a cup of espresso
<daftykins> ooh ty
<ducasse> speaking of, need more tea.
<daftykins> i was thinking that, need to do a milk run in a moment
<ducasse> ahh, there we go :) caffeine <3
<daftykins> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qh91IO9cV48 i found this neat
<ducasse> interesting :) just been reading through the world's longest log dump for a guy, and suddenly he doesn't want to investigate further and logs off :-/
<daftykins> oy
<ducasse> do you know much about web server daemons, by any chance? i need to set one up on my vps, just wondering which one has the best security track record...
<daftykins> most of my experience has been basic setups for wordpress LAMP setups, where i stuck to apache2, i tried out nginx recently but was a bit disappointed when it didn't even have the apache tools for automating the symlinks to enable sites and modules
<daftykins> hadn't tried to 'harden' nginx in any way, but i've gotten by with apache - just needs tweaking to reduce its' many worker count and default config to hide version # and so on
<ducasse> i'm mostly going to serve static pages and files, to use as a sort of personal dumping ground to share files. i was thinking of lighttpd, since this vps has a limited amount of memory and such.
<daftykins> ah right
<daftykins> i run a little home one in 384MB RAM... LAMP with a basic wordpress + this irssi instance
<ducasse> actually, the vps has 1gb of memory, but it's primarily doing other things so the web setup would still need to be very light...
<daftykins> how does the mem usage sit right now?
<ducasse> pretty good, a little under half available, but it was just rebooted.
<daftykins> ah well, probably makes sense to avoid full blown apache - but i've not tried that one
<ducasse> i wasn't really thinking that much about memory usage, more about security. in my mind, apache might have a bigger attack surface than something like lighttpd, but i could be entirely wrong.
<daftykins> yeah, you don't wanna dip into swap though :D it could do, depending on default modules i suppose
<ducasse> think i'll just try lighttpd first, as it should be more than adequate for my needs. i could probably whip up something that would do what i need in a few lines of python, even :)
<daftykins> ^_^
<daftykins> ugh i feel like i should get a clear plastic sheet to cover my keyboard, this house seems to be a dust machine
<ducasse> try one of those sealed, industrial keyboards :)
<daftykins> hah
<ducasse> would probably not be very comfortable to type on, though.
<daftykins> have you ever seen those laser ones that cast a pattern onto the desk, then somehow it registers you touching the spots?
<ducasse> yes, but i can't imagine i would like them. need the tactile feedback. looks cool, though :)
<daftykins> yeah, i imagine latency too
<daftykins> i got told about an industry situation where the staff kept damaging keyboards though, so they put in one of them instead
<ducasse> i'm _much_ too picky about mice and keyboards.
<ducasse> hard to find one i like :)
<\9> i'm sort of trying to find one that i would like
<\9> the usual keyboard layout doesn't have enough keys for my needs
<\9> the finnish keyboard layout sucks for coding so i have to xmodmap the layout a tad
<\9> i still need to use alt+gr t o get backspace
<ducasse> \9: check out the ones i were talking to daftykins about yesterday - wasdkeyboards.com - they have a lot of variations. dunno about extra keys, though, i'll miss that from my current one.
<daftykins> i'm fine with the default UK layout, extra keys is something i detest
<\9> i need the Ã¤ and Ã¶ keys though, it's slightly inconvenient to use the compose ke for them all the time
<\9> thanks ducasse i will check that out
<ducasse> \9: they have at least 88 104 and 105-key ones, in just about any layout you want, you can choose switches and colors for caps and print etc. basically fully custom :)
<\9> so i see
<\9> hmm neat, i can edit the layout as svg
<ducasse> yep, thinking of ordering one myself to replace my razer. i like my current keyboard, but a couple of the keys send several characters when pressed...
<\9> i still want my 106th key thouhg :(
<\9> though*
<daftykins> seems to me like if you can't fit into the standard layouts everyone else does, something you're doing is wrong.
<ducasse> i do just fine with a 105-key layout. my razer has 5 'macro keys' on the left side, i have them mapped to various things but honestly don't use them that much...
<BluesKaj> Hi all
<daftykins> \o
<BluesKaj> hey daftykins
<ducasse> afternoon, BluesKaj - everything well?
<ducasse> daftykins: i (sort of) fixed my keyboard :)
<BluesKaj> hi ducasse, yeah I'm trying setup konverstaion to connect thru a socks5 proxy server provided ny my vpn service . but the settings aren't working
<daftykins> ducasse: \o/
<ducasse> BluesKaj: how/what is failing? it just won't connect?
<BluesKaj> scuse my KB mistakes ...it's suddenly very dark...storms approaching
<BluesKaj> again
<ducasse> daftykins: it's not 100%, but much better :) i'll try prying off the keycaps and go over it with pressurized air later.
<daftykins> :)
<daftykins> i'm still suffering with the membrane here ;_;
<BluesKaj> yeah the asimov, weber and kornbluth servers just fail with unknown error
<ducasse> odd. freenode is sponsored by pia iirc, so they shouldn't be blocking vpn traffic either... has konversation got a network log or console?
<daftykins> is that SSL connection or non?
<BluesKaj> daftykins,  I tried it with and without ssl sasl, different port numbers etc etc, but nothing , even the logs don't show anything
<daftykins> hrmm
<daftykins> well SOCKS is typically a browser thing only i thought, so i'd be more inclined to go back to making the VPN work properly
<BluesKaj> vpn works fine , but I prefer not to use the vpn unless needed and I'd just like to have individual apps use the proxy rather than resorting to all internet connections going thru the vpn
<ducasse> you can always have the vpn tunnel open at all times and just route traffic from certain apps through it.
<BluesKaj> the proxy5 setings for pia proxy server in amsterdam works fine on qbittorrent,  checking with netstat -tapen shows the IPs qbittorrent is routed thru
<BluesKaj> ducasse,  that would be good if I knew how to set that up
<ducasse> i think i have a link somewhere, do you want me to dig for it?
<BluesKaj> sure
<daftykins> yeah that makes sense, you don't have to have your tunnel replace the default gateway
<ducasse> hang on, it's on a machine in another room. brb.
<BluesKaj> right
<ducasse> http://askubuntu.com/questions/37412/how-can-i-ensure-transmission-traffic-uses-a-vpn
<ducasse> that's for torrent, but it demonstrates the general idea.
<ducasse> you start openvpn with --noroute, so you will keep your default route. then route what you want through the tunnel interface.
<ducasse> there is also a git repo with scripts for deluge: https://github.com/bendikro/deluge-vpn.git
<daftykins> i imagine that for ease of use on a graphical desktop you'd make a bunch of scripts to run perhaps
<ducasse> yes, the github link would be a starting point there.
<BluesKaj> think it would be simpler to just configure konversation, since does offer the socks5 option
<ducasse> well, if that's the only program you want it for that is possibly true :)
<BluesKaj> qbittorrent is already configured and working
<ducasse> right. is there a verbose logging option?
<daftykins> tail /var/log/$topic_above.log :
<daftykins> "it dun work"
<daftykins> "it dun work"
<ducasse> :)
<ducasse> something wrong here too, my laptop is 2.6gb into swap with over a gig of memory free...
<daftykins> D:
<daftykins> some kinda task that deems itself backgrounded, so swapped out? o0
<ducasse> maybe, but i don't know _what_ - not that much running, it only has 4gb. bah, need to reboot anyway, kernel update.
#ubuntu-discuss 2017-07-17
<lotuspsychje> good morning to all
<asking> can sombody point to ubuntu support channel ?
<lordievader> Good morning
<lordievader> asking: You mean #ubuntu?
<immu> hmm
<Obi_One> hello
<Bashing-om> Location: Heber Springs, AR ~ Cond: 90Â°F (32Â°C), Clear ~ Atmo: 55%, 9.0 mi (14.5 km), 30.01 in (1016 mb) ~ Wind: 4 mph (6 km/h), N, N/AÂ°F (N/AÂ°C) ~ Time: 13:15
<Bashing-om> Weather:   Conditions 90 F (32 C) - Clear Wind From the Variable at 4 MPH Humidity 55%
<Bashing-om>            Pressure 30.01 in (1016 mb) Time July 17, 1:24 PM CDT (America/Chicago)
<ducasse> \o Bashing-om
<Bashing-om> Anyway .. Hi guys . Warm enough that I seek the AC, And irc here I be :)
<Bashing-om> ducasse: All well still with you and yours ?
<ducasse> yup, finally cooling down after a hot day...
<BluesKaj> Hey Bashing-om, ducasse, weather chan claims 26C . my outdoor therm reads 30C, 60% Humidity and clear here
<Bashing-om> BluesKaj: I think summer has arrived :)
<BluesKaj> but it doesn't feel like 30C , think my thermometer is off kilter
<Bashing-om> It is HOT here .. heat index of 96 and I believe maybe higher . I am in 'til the eve .
<BluesKaj> yeah, Bashing-om , we have wildfires again in the Rockies in British Columbis east of Vancouver , several small cities are being evacuated ... no rain since early june.  We've has a lot of arain here in Northern Ontario ...haven't had the lawn sprinkler on in weeks
<BluesKaj> eeeuw 96 , too warm for doing much IMO
<Bashing-om> BluesKaj: Wild fires galore . Last I looked there was 30 or so still not contained in the US .
<BluesKaj> there's somerthing like 140+ fires in BC ...they're really overwhelmed
<Bashing-om> BluesKaj: An intersting statistical site : http://fires.globalincidentmap.com/ .
<BluesKaj> yeah, good one
<Bashing-om> ducasse: Are you familiar with 17.04's systemd ? - starting different DE's from terminal .
<ducasse> Bashing-om: what do you mean? you select the de from the login screen, systemd doesn't really come into it...
<Bashing-om> ducasse: Well, was working a no boot issue on 17.04 yesterday . Never did get it to boot up from grub. And It ocuured to me that my 17.04 test install has the options to boot unity, gnome3 or wayland. Now how to boot up a desired DE from terminal on 17.04 ?
<ducasse> Bashing-om: you just start your display manager (lightdm or whatever) and select your de there
<ducasse> brb
#ubuntu-discuss 2017-07-18
<EriC^^> evening guys
<Bashing-om> Hey EriC^^ Good to read ya again :P
<EriC^^> hey Bashing-om :D
<Bashing-om> EriC^^: I take it Beirut is still there .
<EriC^^> :D
<Bashing-om> EriC^^: And you are still there - so all is good :P
<EriC^^> :D
<EriC^^> how's the evening going?
<Bashing-om> EriC^^: slower in main .. lately support has gotten real slow . Too user friendly for our comfort ?
<EriC^^> :D
<Bashing-om> EriC^^: What a predicument - I have learned how not to break my system, and no one else is breaking theirs - hoz a guy supposed to learn ?
<Bashing-om> !info nvidia-375 xenial
<ubot5> nvidia-375 (source: nvidia-graphics-drivers-375): NVIDIA binary driver - version 375.66. In component restricted, is optional. Version 375.66-0ubuntu0.16.04.1 (xenial), package size 38895 kB, installed size 160232 kB (Only available for i386; amd64; armhf)
<lotuspsychje> good morning to all
<Bashing-om> \o lotuspsychje . Been slow in main :( Not much going on . Plenty of time for the morning tea .
<lotuspsychje> hey Bashing-om
<lotuspsychje> coffee to wake up :p
<Bashing-om> lotuspsychje: Hey hey .. Does not appear that it will be long before I am backing out of here :)
<lotuspsychje> lets wake em up :p
<Bashing-om> Oh, lotuspsychje - you do have the touch :P
<EriC^^> morning all
<lotuspsychje> hey hey EriC^^
<lotuspsychje> http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2017/07/help-test-ubuntu-17-10-on-real-hardware
<EriC^^> how's it going?
<lotuspsychje> great here
<lotuspsychje> 3 days off
<EriC^^> nice
<EriC^^> going to the beach?
<lotuspsychje> yeah but have to wait 2 deliverys first EriC^^
<EriC^^> aha
<lotuspsychje> external hd and hp envy printer
<lotuspsychje> for customers :p
<lotuspsychje> a seagate expansion 500gig
<EriC^^> aha nice, i had one of those
<EriC^^> lasted like 9 years
<lotuspsychje> i like seagates
<EriC^^> me too, i got another seagate 1tb as replacement
<lotuspsychje> rocksolid heh
<lordievader> Good morning
<lotuspsychje> hey hey lordievader
<EriC^^> good morning lordievader
<lotuspsychje> ready for your train lordievader ?
<lordievader> Hey lotuspsychje, EriC^^
<lordievader> Already halfway ;)
<BluesKaj> Hi all
<ducasse> \o BluesKaj - i'm melting...
<EriC^^> hi BluesKaj ducasse
<ducasse> hi EriC^^
<BluesKaj> hey ducasse, EriC^^
<BluesKaj> ducasse:  sorry to hear that, A/C would be nice for you
<BluesKaj> we installed A/C here 10 yrs ago when the summers just became too hot for our old bones
<ducasse> it's not that bad, honestly, i'm just slightly overheated from doing garden work :) just sitting inside it's quite bearable.
<BluesKaj> ok, good
<ducasse> investing in ac here in norway seems wasteful, as you'd probably need it 5 days/year...
<BluesKaj> yes, this summer isn't really hot but a couple of yrs ago it was a constant 30C for about 5 weeks ...this summer isn't too bad but the house heats up in late afternoon nowadays so it's nice to cool things down in the evening before going to bed
<ducasse> that's not really been a problem here, i'm happy to say. thankfully there are several large trees providing shade, plus the house itself being on a hill overlooking the fjord - the wind blows straight in
<ducasse> that latter bit is not so fantastic midwinter, though...
<BluesKaj> yeah, we have some big tree around our house , but unfortunately we had to have our big maple cut down because it was becoming dangerous.
<BluesKaj> lost some of our early afternoon shade
<BluesKaj> ok bbiab
<kotek> hi
<kotek> is anybody alive?
<kotek> and feel like chatting?
#ubuntu-discuss 2017-07-19
<lotuspsychje> good morning to all
<lordievader> Good morning
<lotuspsychje> morning lordievader
<lordievader> Hey lotuspsychje, how are you?
<lotuspsychje> great lordievader today delivery of a hp envy to a customer
<lordievader> Nice, with only Ubu loaded?
<lotuspsychje> lordievader: im selling accesoires also and win repairs too
<lotuspsychje> lordievader: but ill concentrate on ubuntu as much as i can
<lotuspsychje> morning EriC^^
<EriC^^> morning
<lotuspsychje> EriC^^: we went to baby driver in theaters yesterday
<lordievader> lotuspsychje: Right, nice :)
<lordievader> Hey EriC^^
<EriC^^> lotuspsychje: nice i catched it online
<EriC^^> hey lordievader
<EriC^^> lotuspsychje: you likey?
<lotuspsychje> EriC^^: yeah was pretty original
<EriC^^> there's a good movie coming out (i think) war of the planet apes or something
<lotuspsychje> i always like robbery movies :p
<EriC^^> heh :D
<lotuspsychje> yeah its playing at theaters too EriC^^
<EriC^^> i'm waiting for it to hit online
<EriC^^> movienight.ws
<EriC^^> i got a netflix trial btw
<EriC^^> but they dont have anything :/
<EriC^^> very lame
<lotuspsychje> lol
<EriC^^> my dad was here so i told him use that cc on it free trial
<EriC^^> :D
<EriC^^> all old movies
<lordievader> EriC^^: We just finished season one of Dirk Gently on Netflix.
<EriC^^> lordievader: any good?
<lordievader> It was quite enjoyable, nothing like the books. But good fun.
<EriC^^> aha cool
<lordievader> Stranger Things is also very nice to watch.
<EriC^^> aha
<lotuspsychje> http://news.softpedia.com/news/ubports-working-lately-on-ubuntu-touch-port-for-nexus-5-based-on-ubuntu-16-04-517027.shtml
<BluesKaj> Howdy folks
<lotuspsychje> good afternoon to all
<oerheks> hey lotuspsychje
<lotuspsychje> hey oerheks can you warm yourself?
<oerheks> 28.9 Â°C Feels Like 31 Â°C
<oerheks> sure, if i turn on the heater
<lotuspsychje> they say rain & thunder is comming but we didnt see a single drop yet
<oerheks> we do .. https://www.buienradar.nl/home/onweer
<lotuspsychje> welcome Tesla42 & Dreyk
<lotuspsychje> oerheks: yesterday we went to cadzand to cool down :p
<lotuspsychje> next on our list is breskens
<oerheks> Zandvoort is 20 min away, on the bicycle
<oerheks> no parking-fee, walking, waiting..
<lotuspsychje> nice
<lotuspsychje> alot of electric bikes in cadzand omg
<lotuspsychje> popular cycling across the beachlines
<oerheks> yes, fools in cars are silly
<oerheks> black cars :-D
<lotuspsychje> lol
<oerheks> when you open the door, it is like an invisable fire
<lotuspsychje> the batmobile?
<oerheks> brrr aliens
<lotuspsychje> lol
<lotuspsychje> !info linux-image-generic xenial
<ubot5> linux-image-generic (source: linux-meta): Generic Linux kernel image. In component main, is optional. Version 4.4.0.83.89 (xenial), package size 2 kB, installed size 13 kB
<lordievader> !info linux-image-generic artful
<ubot5> linux-image-generic (source: linux-meta): Generic Linux kernel image. In component main, is optional. Version 4.11.0.10.10 (artful), package size 2 kB, installed size 13 kB
<lotuspsychje> how come that lenovo of my customer had 4.8 kernel on .2 xenial?
<lordievader> Is HWE still a thing?
<lordievader> I.e. backporting a kernel of a newer release.
<lotuspsychje> but i downloaded latest ubuntu iso of xenial
<lotuspsychje> why isnt that 4.4.0.83 then?
<lordievader> No idea, the Ubuntu kernel selection has always been somewhat of a mystery to me.
<lotuspsychje> weird situation
<nacc> what's the q?
<lotuspsychje> aha
<lotuspsychje> https://askubuntu.com/questions/885054/upgrade-16-04-2-lts-to-kernel-version-4-8
<lotuspsychje> nacc: i had a lenovo xenial 16.04.2 box that had flickering bug on 4.8 kernel fresh iso
<nacc> lotuspsychje: isntalled yourself, or as installed by the venodr?
<lotuspsychje> nacc: i had to reinstall 16.04 to get back to 4.4 kernel to get rid of that bug
<lotuspsychje> nacc: own install
<nacc> lotuspsychje: no, you can install the correct kernel package by opting into it
<nacc> lotuspsychje: linux-generic xserver-xorg vs. linux-generic-hwe-16.04 xserver-xorg-hwe-16.04
<lotuspsychje> nacc: users have to install their own kernels by default?
<nacc> lotuspsychje: not sure i follow
<nacc> lotuspsychje: if you install 16.04.2, you wanted the hwe kernel
<lotuspsychje> nacc: well latest .2 xenial iso resulted to 4.8 kernel on that box, is that normal?
<nacc> lotuspsychje: yes, that's the hwe kernel
<nacc> lotuspsychje: so the story is (for .2):
<nacc> if you fresh isntall, you get hwe
<nacc> if you upgrade from .1 -> .2 you have to opt-in
<lotuspsychje> nacc: ok
<nacc> i *believe* this was true for 14.04.* as well
<lordievader> Thought so
<lotuspsychje> nacc: can you explain the logic of that?
<nacc> lotuspsychje: i'm not on the kernel team, so not really :)
<lordievader> Isn't it true for all LTS releases?
<nacc> lotuspsychje: but i think it's always been the way
<lotuspsychje> oh okay tnx for clearing that out
<nacc> lotuspsychje: that's why 16.04.1 is supported for 5 years on its
<nacc> *its own
<lotuspsychje> nacc: so to avoid fresh bugs for new customers i should stick to .1?
<nacc> lotuspsychje: to be clear, .1 (updated) and .2 (updated) re the same, with different hwe stacks instaleld by default
<lotuspsychje> kk
<immu> EriC^^, BluesKaj lordievader
<lordievader> Good evening immu
<nicomachus> o/
<nicomachus> daftykins around?
<lordievader> Haven't seen him.
<nicomachus> poop.
<immu> Goodnight :) lordievader
<lordievader> How are you doing?
<immu> good
<immu> listening to soul foul music
<immu> wanna hear
<lordievader> Nah, I'm going to bed soon
<nicomachus> what are you listening on?
<immu> youtunbe
<immu> https://youtu.be/a18py61_F_w
<immu> click on CC for english subtitles
<immu> brb
<immu> back
<immu> lordievader, back EriC^^
<immu> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-R5YWh45s6I another one
<immu> goood nite
#ubuntu-discuss 2017-07-20
<lotuspsychje> good morning to all
<EriC^^> morning lotuspsychje
<BluesKaj> Hiyas all
<daftykins> nicomachus: o hai
<nicomachus> daftykins: have you ever used mopidy on any of your setups?
<nicomachus> or do you do music through Kodi too?
<daftykins> very rarely play music through Kodi, but when i do i just use a standard samba mount and the library, or even file mode
<nicomachus> I set up mopidy on my HTPC at home and it's super nice to be able to build playlists with local files, spotify, and Youtube all together. But setting it up on my laptop was a different story.. Lol
<daftykins> hmm, still don't touch any streaming services myself, got a Pi in my lounge pretending to be a logitech squeezebox so i can play music from my local collection controlled from my phone
<nicomachus> mopidy does a cool MusicBox for Pi
<daftykins> sounds like it could be useful if you go near streaming services, but just reinventing the wheel for me
<ducasse> \o daftykins
<ducasse> i use mpd on my pi for much the same thing you use yours for - control playback of local files through phone. brilliant stuff.
<ducasse> looked at mopidy, but have zero need for spotify et al...
<nicomachus> ducasse: that's really the only reason to do mopidy over mpd. The plugins are nice, but if you don't need them then you don't need mopidy.
<nicomachus> But I gotta say, it's awfully cool to be able to build a playlist with tracks from Spotify, Soundcloud, YouTube, and local.
<nicomachus> And it just plays them as if there's no difference in source.
<ducasse> nicomachus: yes, but there are other plugins than those from streaming services that can be useful iirc, and configuration can be nicer than mpd. in the end i settled on mpd as it does what i need with little to no hassle, though.
<nicomachus> yea, it has plugins for almost every streaming service. Google Play Music is a big one for a lot of people, but I don't use that.
<ducasse> i only use local files, ripped from a massive cd/lp collection. been thinking of using one for mobile, but swappable sd cards work as well :)
<immu> hi ducasse
<nicomachus> ducasse: if only my phone still supported SD... next one is definitely going to have to. I miss it too much.
<ducasse> well, microsd actually, but still. yes, it's a must for me. too bad so many are skimping on it.
<nicomachus> "oh, just use our Cloud service! it's only $14.99 (per month)!"
<ducasse> also, i'd need to pay for mobile data to actually stream the music, or constantly download/delete stuff
<nicomachus> no no no, data is unlimited*!
<nicomachus> (*fees may apply after the first 100mb)
<ducasse> yeah, those footnotes always mean something nice is coming :)
#ubuntu-discuss 2017-07-21
<lordievader> Good morning
<oerheks> Yakkety is EOL now, July 20, 2017
<oerheks> !yakkety
<ubot5> Ubuntu 16.10 (Yakkety Yak) was the 25th release of Ubuntu. Download at http://www.ubuntu.com/download - Read the release notes at https://ubottu.com/y/yakkety
<oerheks> ya-ya-ya'll upgrade now
<BluesKaj> Hi folks
<oerheks> hi BluesKaj
<BluesKaj> hey oerheks
<ducasse> hi all
<BluesKaj> hey ducasse
<ducasse> hiya BluesKaj
<ducasse> all well in canada?
<BluesKaj> wildfires still burning out west in BC, but all seems well here, hows Norsk today?
<ducasse> slightly rainy, but good. not as hot as the past week, which is nice :)
 * BluesKaj nods
<BluesKaj> it's been 30 here the last couple of days ..hot enough for my old northerm bones :-)
<ducasse> mine as well, anything over 25 gets uncomfortable. luckily that doesn't happen very often here :)
<BluesKaj> yeah , I feel the same
<ducasse> damn, seems the usb stick my rpi uses for the root fs is beginning to fail, thinking of trying a usb hard drive instead.
<BluesKaj> microsds don't last long if one uses it as the sole drive. I moved / to a usb hdd and the microsd is strictly for booting ..perhaps you don't neesed this tut, but here it is anyway, http://magnatecha.com/using-a-usb-drive-as-os-root-on-a-raspberry-pi/
<BluesKaj> err need
<ducasse> as it's already set up for root on usb stick, it should be trivial to move to a hdd. i just hope the fs is still ok.
<BluesKaj> my /boot is still the microsdcard, but i would like to move the /boot to the HDD as well. Using a microsd to boot seems temporary to me..
<ducasse> is that even possible on the rpi? i thought it *had* to boot off microsd?
<BluesKaj> I've seen tuts to move the whole works to boot directly off the hdd, but I tried a couple and both failed
<BluesKaj> I guess the microsd will last if it's only job is to boot the system :-)
<ducasse> afaik the rpi has to boot off microsd as the firmware doesn't support anything else. that might be old info now, dunno.
<BluesKaj> well, my system works well, altho I've been tempted to try again I'm sticking with what works until a definitive tutorial proves moving boot to the hdd actaually works
<ducasse> i try not to mess with mine at all as long as it does the job :)
<BluesKaj> yup
<ducasse> bbiab
<lotus|artfulbox> good evening to all
<lotus|artfulbox> 300mb update on artful
<lotus|artfulbox> lets c what that gives
<ducasse> hi lotus|artfulbox :)
<lotus|artfulbox> hey hey ducasse how are you mate?
 * ducasse gives lotus a wb-hug :)
<lotus|artfulbox> tnx :p
<ducasse> lot of work lately?
<lotus|artfulbox> ducasse, it has been okay few days off a week
<ducasse> saw all your topic changes, glad the business is going ahead
<lotus|artfulbox> yeah its working great for start ducasse
<lotus|artfulbox> http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2017/07/ubuntu-wants-know-apps-think-default-survey
<lotus|artfulbox> hey Bashing-om
<Bashing-om> lotus|artfulbox: Hey hey .. Pleasantly surprised to see you pop up this time of my day . No work ?
<lotus|artfulbox> Bashing-om, early shift today
<lotus|artfulbox> !info linux-image-generic artful
<ubot5> linux-image-generic (source: linux-meta): Generic Linux kernel image. In component main, is optional. Version 4.11.0.10.10 (artful), package size 2 kB, installed size 13 kB
<lotus|artfulbox> http://news.softpedia.com/news/ubuntu-16-10-yakkety-yak-is-no-longer-supported-upgrade-to-ubuntu-17-04-now-517083.shtml
<lotus|artfulbox> !16.10
<ubot5> Ubuntu 16.10 (Yakkety Yak) was the 25th release of Ubuntu. Download at http://www.ubuntu.com/download - Read the release notes at https://ubottu.com/y/yakkety
<ducasse> instead of a download link, it should say it's eol
<lotus|artfulbox> yeah
<lotus|artfulbox> ducasse, did they remove it from #ubuntu topic yet?
<oerheks> ask dax
 * oerheks loves highlighting ubotto-factoid-maintainers
<lotus|artfulbox> lol
<ducasse> lotus|artfulbox: nope
<Bashing-om> lotus|artfulbox: nope 2 "  official flavors, versions 14.04, 16.04, 16.10, 17.04 | Unofficial derivatives:"
<lotus|artfulbox> someone has to do some work :p
<oerheks> any ubuntu should have an expiring watermark on the desktop :-D
<lotus|artfulbox> okay reboot after updates, wish me luck
<Bashing-om> lotus|artfulbox: Not in my job description :P
<lotus|artfulbox> yay
<lotus|artfulbox> Linux artful-bugbox 4.11.0-10-generic #15-Ubuntu SMP Thu Jun 29 15:03:41 UTC 2017 x86_64 x86_64 x86_64 GNU/Linux
<ducasse> !yay | lotus|artfulbox
<ubot5> lotus|artfulbox: Glad you made it! :-)
<lotus|artfulbox> tnx :p
<ducasse> is the plan still to release with 4.12?
<lotus|artfulbox> ducasse, not sure
<lotus|artfulbox> http://news.softpedia.com/news/canonical-outs-new-kernel-security-updates-for-all-supported-ubuntu-releases-517100.shtml
<lotus|artfulbox> anoter reboot gnome asked
<lotuspsychje> installed preload,rar,vlc,tweaked startup items, played with gnome tweaks
<Bashing-om> lotuspsychje: And we have lift off ? - all to do again next release :)
<lotuspsychje> Bashing-om, yeah all to get a nice & clean 18.04
<Bashing-om> lotuspsychje: I got in mind when I get a fresh drive to install 17.10 - looking forward to 18.04 :)
<ducasse> still some way off for that :)
<lotuspsychje> im curious about final
<lotuspsychje> right now, it still looks very gnomeish
<lotuspsychje> that activities start button, makes one use much time to switch things
<lotuspsychje> i dont like that
<Bashing-om> Me be devoted xfce fan , I truely like having multiple displays within same desktop/workspaces .
<lotus|artfulbox> http://imgur.com/a/cyMuJ
<lotus|artfulbox> bbl guys, testing done for today
<Bashing-om> lotuspsychje: Buce \o/ , Ya got to admit that gnome looks clean on the desktop :)
<lotus|artfulbox> Bashing-om, clean it is, usefull perhaps yet to come
<lotus|artfulbox> bbl
<Bashing-om> lotus|artfulbox: I have played with gnome just a bit . I did come running back to my xfce4 . I like fast ! and xfce is on that SSD .
<oerheks> grinn 1691 tabs .. https://metafluff.com/2017/07/21/i-am-a-tab-hoarder/
<oerheks> nice review
<Bashing-om> oerheks: Great for FF . Now maybe that will prod other web browsers to follow :) I hate waiting on the browser .
<oerheks> this http://paste.ubuntu.com/25142490/ snap list gives http://paste.ubuntu.com/25142491/
<oerheks> now i need to sort that list
<Bashing-om> oerheks: Need thoughts ?
<oerheks> i have it sorted, now duplicates removal, as they seem to be not really duplicate, it is manually removal
<Bashing-om> oerheks: What does a true Geek do on a Friday night ? why massage a data base of course .
<oerheks> yes, but no i go to bed :-D
<oerheks> btw i'd like to crawl this list, see if there are interesting snaps to write about
<Bashing-om> crawlling puts you to sleep, yes oerheks ?
#ubuntu-discuss 2017-07-22
<immu> hi all folks
<immu> how many are using the xanmod kernel?
<immu> https://www.mail-archive.com/pulseaudio-discuss@lists.freedesktop.org/msg17876.html
<lordievader> Good morning
<oerheks> immu, if that kernel is not officially build for ubuntu, nobody i gues
<oerheks> hi lordievader
<lordievader> Hey oerheks
<lordievader> How are you doing?
<oerheks> Fine, just came back from shopping, and how about you?
<lordievader> Doing good here, doing some vector graphics design :)
<oerheks> i love inkscape
<lordievader> First time I work with it.
<immu> hi oerheks lordievader
<immu> its built for ubuntu and debian distro oer
<immu> oerheks,
<oerheks> immu, i read about that patch, but i don't know where that xanmod kernel should come from
<immu> oerheks, https://xanmod.org/
<oerheks> oh, maar die kernel is niet voor ubuntu
<oerheks> err, now in english: that kernel is not for ubuntu
<lordievader> Why not? As long as it is a linux kernel...
<lordievader> Ubuntu works fine with custom kernels.
<oerheks> isn't the ubuntu kernel build with unique config?
<oerheks> that is what i understand for years now :-(
<oerheks> "use mainline and not kernel.org"
<lordievader> It probably is build with some config, yes (enable all modules :( ). And you don't get any support on a custom kernel, that is probably why they say use mainline.
<immu> kernel is stable and functional
<immu> sometimes i need to test a upstream kernel to see if the sound issue is resolved or not
<lordievader> The sound issue?
<BluesKaj> Hiyas all
<daftykins> o/
<daftykins> how goes it?
<BluesKaj> hey daftykins, good here, and you?
<daftykins> yeah not bad thanks, bit wet at the moment so been having a break indoors :)
<BluesKaj> right, we're expecting cool and wet tomorrow
<Bashing-om> OKay , Let's do Saturday support . :D
<daftykins> \o/
<daftykins> welcome back sir
<oerheks> got the list sorted, Bashing-om
<oerheks> http://paste.ubuntu.com/25147642/
<oerheks> just 841 snaps
<ducasse> miaow!
<Bashing-om> daftykins: Being here beats being ouside . HOT and hunid out . I be hugging the AC .
<daftykins> haha, you may envy me then... it's been cold and wet
<Bashing-om> oerheks: Good man that you are ! Can find now what you are looking for :)
<Bashing-om> daftykins: There are cons to an island in the upper Atlantic :)
<daftykins> ^_^
<immu> hi alllll
#ubuntu-discuss 2017-07-23
<lotuspsychje> good morning to all
<Bashing-om> lotuspsychje: early ??
<lotuspsychje> hey Bashing-om yeah insomnia :p
<lotuspsychje> too hot to sleep
<lotuspsychje> so im on irc with a cold soda on tha rox
<lotuspsychje> hi txtechnow
<Bashing-om> Weather:   Conditions 93 F (34 C) - Clear Wind From the SSW at 7 MPH Humidity 56%
<Bashing-om>            Pressure 29.87 in (1011 mb) Heat Index 105 F (41 C)
<lotuspsychje> wow
<Bashing-om> lotuspsychje: ^^ AC can not keep up . But it helps !
<lotuspsychje> wheres that usb fan when you need one :p
<Bashing-om> USB fan blowing over a very large tub of ice .
<lotuspsychje> lol
<lotuspsychje> Bashing-om: perhaps try this? http://imgur.com/tQvOkUo
<lotuspsychje> https://www.linux.com/learn/intro-to-linux/2017/7/ubuntu-1710-back-gnome-future
<Bashing-om> lotuspsychje: LOL - Even I will not go that far !
<lotuspsychje> :p
<Bashing-om> lotuspsychje: Which does serve to remin me to dust out the box tomorrow while doing my updates and backups .
<lotuspsychje> cool
<Bashing-om> Maybe cool-er tomorrow :)
<lotuspsychje> has been rainy yesterday and not one bit of coolness yet
<Bashing-om> Was rain for Monday and cooler temps - now not so ! .. chances are slim . YUK !
<lotuspsychje> getting another cold one
<lotuspsychje> Bashing-om: uff, what a situation with maynard
<Bashing-om> lotuspsychje: Uh Huh . Like pulling teeth just to understand his situation and exactly what he is doing :(
<Bashing-om> lotuspsychje: Are we having fun now ?
<lotuspsychje> lol
<Bashing-om> lotuspsychje: Looks as if marvin42 is going to continue to keep me entertained for a spell yet :)
<lotuspsychje> hehe
<Bashing-om> lotuspsychje: Was only going to be a simple little re-install of the driver . Was unaware at the time of the difficulties booting the system back up . Yikes !
<Bashing-om> Jumping into the rain locker - back shortly .
<Bashing-om> \o Nite all
<EriC^^> !ping
<ubot5> pong!
<sunnyNegi> hi
<sunnyNegi> how can gice more space in tmp folder, i am using ubuntu 16.04 lts
<sunnyNegi> any idea
<BluesKaj> Hi folks
<lotuspsychje> good evening to all
<lotuspsychje> hey Bashing-om wb
<lotuspsychje> hey EriC^^
<Bashing-om> lotuspsychje: Long day for you ? Hoz support been going ? ( I got my learning cap on ) .
<EriC^^> hey lotuspsychje
<EriC^^> hey Bashing-om
<lotuspsychje> Bashing-om: i also just joined, dont know
<Bashing-om> lotuspsychje: K; Well then I guess the heat is getting to you again :P
<lotuspsychje> Bashing-om: cloudy, but still warm :p
<Bashing-om> lotuspsychje: Same . A fair chance of thunderstorms - overcast now and not as bad heat wise as has been.
<Bashing-om> Weather:   Conditions 91 F (33 C) - Clear Wind From the Variable at 5 MPH Humidity 63%
<Bashing-om>            Pressure 29.90 in (1012 mb) Heat Index 105 F (41 C)
<Bashing-om> lotuspsychje: I take that back ^ . Look at that heat index .. still at 105 F !
<lotuspsychje> wow
<Bashing-om> lotuspsychje: Great excuse to remian here in the house and on irc :) AC is working !
<lotuspsychje> yay
<EriC^^> https://3d.xkcd.com/
<lotuspsychje> EriC^^: lol
<EriC^^> ironically the comic is 3d
<EriC^^> i wonder if now all of them are like that or just that for extra sarcasm points
<Bashing-om> EriC^^: LOL 2 , Hey I can relate !
<EriC^^> if you move the mouse around, the angle moves
<Bashing-om> EriC^^: Some interesting coding going on there with the wab page :)
<EriC^^> yup
<Bashing-om> !info nvidia-prime xenial
<ubot5> nvidia-prime (source: nvidia-prime): Tools to enable NVIDIA's Prime. In component main, is optional. Version 0.8.2 (xenial), package size 10 kB, installed size 66 kB (Only available for i386; amd64)
#ubuntu-discuss 2018-07-16
<ducasse> guiverc: just a note - afaik lightdm actually has more features than gdm, like the ability to automatically spawn a vnc server and xdmcp support
<guiverc> thanks ducasse ; that would explain the ubuntu* using it (I suspect they added the features & my comment was from where it started & thus so-so-so-so-out-of-date
<guiverc> i use hexchat - every so often it puts a line across the window; why is what?  does it signify anything?  (it's not all the same time in different windows)...  feel free to tell me to go read doco though :)
<daftykins> it's a scrollback line ja, i believe its' purpose is to point out the messages you haven't seen yet (below) when you switch tasks
<ducasse> i dunno, weechat does that to separate new, unread messages from old
<guiverc> that makes a lot of sense :)
<hggdh> on weechat, when you return to a channel, a line of '-' is printed to show where you were last time in the channel
<lotuspsychje> good morning to all
<ducasse> good morning
<lordievader> Good morning
<lotuspsychje> morning lordievader
<ducasse> hi lordievader - all well?
<lordievader> Hey lotuspsychje , ducasse
<lordievader> Doing good here, how are you guys?
<ducasse> all ok here, i think :)
<EriC^^> morning all
<lordievader> Hugo is quite nice ð
<lordievader> Started playing with it last week.
<lordievader> Building a website in markdown is a whole lot better than in Worpress.
<ducasse> morning EriC^^
<EriC^^> morning ducasse
<tomreyn> looks like the man is in phocean's computer
<JimBuntu> "man in the machine" ?
<tomreyn> i was merely joking about the apparmor line they posted
<tomreyn> 'man' got denied ptrace on self
<BluesKaj> Hiyas all
<ducasse> morning BluesKaj - how are you doing?
<BluesKaj> Hi ducasse , doing well thanks , and how are you?
<BluesKaj> was checking out  airbnb cottages for a family get together, hence my late reply
<ducasse> i'm ok, thanks - having a quiet day here
<ducasse> no real plans, which is kind of nice :)
<BluesKaj> cool.good to relax :-)
<ducasse> how about you, BluesKaj - any plans today?
<BluesKaj> not too much. might take a drive to the North Channel of Georgian Bay which is on Lake Huron (one of the "Great Lakes in NA). only 25km from me.
<BluesKaj> I have some friends there
<ducasse> sounds fun - have a good trip :)
<BluesKaj> thanks ducasse :-)
<lotuspsychje> good evening to all
<pragmaticenigma> it's a strange one out there
<lotuspsychje> hey pragmaticenigma
<pragmaticenigma> howdy
<lotuspsychje> 1700 users, neat
<pragmaticenigma> 1705
<lotuspsychje> lol
<pragmaticenigma> 1704
<pragmaticenigma> :-P
<lotuspsychje> haha
<oerheks> 2 users, rest is lonely
<pragmaticenigma> leftyfb: Why do you do that? What is wrong with providing a simple answer to someone. I know there are lots of mirrors, but to download from them, means one should also verify the checksum and everything. ubuntu.com is under Canonical's control.
<oerheks> this sphinx dude does not even mention the brand and the repo he refers too..
<leftyfb> pragmaticenigma: to say only .ubuntu.com URL's host official images is just plain false. I get what you're saying and there are better ways to get across the point to sphinx.
<oerheks> sqeeze the info out of him :-D
<lotuspsychje> new netplan version on updates
<pragmaticenigma> I agree, it's an over simplification. I go when someone is giving limited information, then either they're hiding something or possibly just not that familiar with the ecosystem. I feel it better to error on side of caution.
<lotuspsychje> hmm they should have been put users in main system settings, instead of tree of details
<lotuspsychje> in gnome
<lotuspsychje> oh well they can find it too in right upper corner i guess
<leftyfb> pragmaticenigma: I agree with most of your statement. But I really dislike over simplification when the answer is yes or no and is just false. In those cases, I try to word it appropriately
<lotuspsychje> tomreyn: licking icecreams? lol
<lotuspsychje> what about support!
<oerheks> all support seems to be extra lazy today .. those who seek support i mean
<lotuspsychje> weird with 1705 users
<lotuspsychje> oops 1717
<lotuspsychje> alot of cpu fans blowing at same time now..
<lotuspsychje> next week 2000! :p
<lotuspsychje> holiday is over guys, millions xenial users come nag about slow gnome system
<blackflow> LTS upgrade?
<lotuspsychje> haha yeah
<blackflow> PLUS Friday!
<lotuspsychje> nobody believes the storm blackflow snif
<blackflow> hmm?
<lotuspsychje> the xenial upgrade storm
<lotuspsychje> dont you think they will press the button?
<lotuspsychje> !info nvidia-340 bionic
<ubot5> nvidia-340 (source: nvidia-graphics-drivers-340): NVIDIA binary driver - version 340.106. In component restricted, is optional. Version 340.106-0ubuntu3 (bionic), package size 28643 kB, installed size 139951 kB (Only available for i386; amd64; armhf)
<pragmaticenigma> lotuspsychje: I'm wondering if there is an issue with Rumens locale being russian, and the drivers possibly looking for something in english
<lotuspsychje> pragmaticenigma: hmm not sure, i see it uninstalls 390..but then 340 gets faulty?
<lotuspsychje> pragmaticenigma: perhaps a cache clean needed?
<lotuspsychje> pragmaticenigma: dpkg-divert: error: rename involves overwriting '/usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libGL.so.1.distrib' with
<lotuspsychje>   different file '/usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libGL.so.1', not allowed
<lotuspsychje> think ive seen this before
<lotuspsychje> think it needs a removal
<pragmaticenigma> oh... that looks like a PPA conflict
<lotuspsychje> right
<blackflow> lol! that video request is....   omg kids these days.
<blackflow> "is there an android app that will do that for me!"
<lotuspsychje> lol
<lotuspsychje> i wanna check in from my mobile
<oerheks> i am not even bing-ing it
<oerheks> too lazy today
<pragmaticenigma> What's worse, those videos tpyically have incorrect information. Especially since they don't cover forks that occur when one person's setup isn't exactly the same as the video
<pragmaticenigma> lotuspsychje: Joy! New Nvidia drivers are waiting for installation on my home machine :-(... Do I risk it after all the trouble Ruman is having?
<lotuspsychje> dont forget we have these :p https://www.wikihow.com/Category:Ubuntu
<lotuspsychje> pragmaticenigma: yeah, its 340 that is killing him
<pragmaticenigma> I thought they had issues with 39x series... since their request started with them attempting to ugprade to a newer GPU card
<lotuspsychje> his card cant swallow 390
<pragmaticenigma> They have another card lotuspsychje ... they went back to the first card
<lotuspsychje> hmm
<lotuspsychje> never seen his source question
<oerheks> that other card, is that onboard? nvidia 215 sounds like that
<oerheks> maybe he has onboard as primairy
<oerheks> and it is too hot to look into the bios
<lotuspsychje> hey nacc
<lotuspsychje> oerheks: he might made a mess out of it
<pragmaticenigma> ð¤£ I can't even with fwef
<pragmaticenigma> I also can't understand why someone would pay a premium price for a macbook or any apple computer, to install linux/ubuntu on. It just seems so.. very... odd
<blackflow> I can't understand why would someone pay a premum for that. At. All.
<lotuspsychje> weird cause we have users saying bionic worked nice on their mac
<lotuspsychje> he was n discuss for a while
<pragmaticenigma> If you let the mac age a bit... it seems the support catches up
<pragmaticenigma> Apple is notorius for installing devices that don't adhere to standards ... especialy keybaords and mice
<lotuspsychje> this looks nice: https://nixaid.com/linux-on-macbookpro/
<blackflow> pragmaticenigma: the faulty kbds they then REFUSE to fix/replace?
<pragmaticenigma> I don't know about those ones... I know their bluetooth keyboards don't play ball
<blackflow> for this here alone, I would never, ever use crapple even if given for free (I'd sell off on ebay to some gullible mac hypster).   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-NU7yOSElE
<pragmaticenigma> blackflow: There's a whole ton to that story though
<blackflow> you really have to be <insert serious insults> gullible to buy that carp. and I don't mean the fish.
<pragmaticenigma> I love that video with the spark added for dramatic effect
<blackflow> I personally know some mac users who got played nicely by their local mac repair shops with a big fat NO.
<pragmaticenigma> The running gag with Linux Tech Tips and dropping things!
<blackflow> heh :)
<pragmaticenigma> err.. .Linus Tech Tips
<blackflow> I have that vid bookmarked so I send it to anyone who asks me whether they should get a mac.
<lotuspsychje> lol
<pragmaticenigma> to be fair... LTT got a refusal for reasons outside of what happened...
<blackflow> and of the two users I know are buying only mac stuff, I swear, they do it _only_ because it's Apple. Prestige. Literally all they do is use safari on their macs. and all the array of modern social herpderps on their iphones.
<pragmaticenigma> most of it was due to the fact that Apple has a really *ryhmes with trucked* up repair network, in the effort of preventing parts from landing in the mainstream markets.
<blackflow> pragmaticenigma: but that's exactly the thing.
<blackflow> they're about "preventing". all the time. constantly. everything.
<pragmaticenigma> For LTT... one of the bigger issues were none of the auth repair service techinicans in canada had received the training or certifications required to purchase the replacement parts through the apple repair network
<pragmaticenigma> Thing is... you can easily pick up a macbook shell in a lot of markets... and probably take the cover off an similar form factor laptop from Acer, HP, or other brand... and no one would know the difference if you swapped it
<blackflow> something tells me alibaba is full of counterfeit apple replacement parts :)
<nacc> lotuspsychje: hiya!
<lotuspsychje> https://github.com/Dunedan/mbp-2016-linux
<lotuspsychje> audio seems to remain a problem
<lotuspsychje> oerheks: you got query on?
<pragmaticenigma> yay... petro is trolling again
<blackflow> he never stopped really.
<hggdh> stopped now, it seems
<lotuspsychje> tnx for checking hggdh
<lotuspsychje> its one of those hard to catches
<lotuspsychje> or not lol
<blackflow> lotuspsychje: reboot and try again? :)))
<lotuspsychje> for his lock
<blackflow> he just needs sudo
<lotuspsychje> seems like he wont reboot anyway :p
<blackflow> also I think just pkilling packagekit should fix dpkg lock issues, in most cases it's because packagekit is fiddling with it in the background
<nacc> a week away from irc and my patience is still zero
<nacc> blackflow: good luck :)
<lotuspsychje> lol
<lotuspsychje> but but we need you at ltsupgrade storm nacc :p
<blackflow> I have this nagging suspicion that this is the same user as that petro....
 * lotuspsychje is loading positive vibes
<blackflow> when's that btw, 26th amirite?
<lotuspsychje> 26 yeah
<lotuspsychje> !release
<ubot5> Ubuntu releases a new version every 6 months. Each version is supported for 9 months (non-LTS) or 5 years (LTS). More info at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Releases and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TimeBasedReleases
<lotuspsychje> hmm doesnt show yet
<nacc> lotuspsychje: yeah, i'll be around :)
<lotuspsychje> yess
<leftyfb> man, all out today aren't they?
<lotuspsychje> lol
<lotuspsychje> troll heaven
<leftyfb> not trolls really
<blackflow> eh... they left. was about tot ell them all those games are available through web based interpreters..... neway...
<hggdh> it's the International Trolling Day :-)
<lotuspsychje> lol
<lotuspsychje> nite nite
<leftyfb> lol
<leftyfb> it's just some kid who wants to doubleclick a thing and play free games
<hggdh> they are not trolls indeed. They sound more like ignorant users that wish to keep ignorant
<leftyfb> bingo
<hggdh> point being that I quick google for 'inform linux' returned a series of entries explaining how to
<leftyfb> on an unrelated note, Prime day is failing spectacularly
<blackflow> hggdh: "I don't want to listen for your help, I want to do it this particular way even though it's not designed to do that"     is trolling to me.
<hggdh> blackflow: not really. People are resistant to change, and expect things to be the same *even* if the underlying "reality" has changed
<hggdh> I remember one specific teaching day where I was confronted with something like that, and tried to explain in many different ways why it would not work anymore
<hggdh> eventually, I lost my cool, and told the student to go and do something else from computers
<hggdh> (which made me even more willing to understand the PoV of others -- after my outburst, I felt bad)
<blackflow> why felt bad. some people are beyond help.
<hggdh> a real question (from Petro): what is "task manager" on Ubuntu?
<hggdh> blackflow: indeed, but I feel that an effort to understand is always warranted
<blackflow> I do have a very short fuse for people who shouldn't be running servers, running servers. that's just... like DUI. and sometimes with potentially equally lethal consequences.
<blackflow> hggdh: btw, if you haven't noticed, #ubuntu-server :)
<nacc> i'll deal with it, as best i can :)
<oerheks> if this behaviour is happening in my area, i'd say a thunderstorm is comming.. but this is global
<hggdh> p1l0t is probably talking biut the initramfs re-do that happens on the (still) existing kernels
<blackflow> ugh!
<nacc> hggdh: oh good point
<EriC^^> evening all
<oerheks> hi EriC^^
<EriC^^> hi oerheks o/
<Mystic_Reverie> do any of u people remember telling me i dont have to use terminal much. or i dont have to study that kind of stuff if i prefer a gui?
<Mystic_Reverie> and me saying that was a condition of me installing ubuntu?
<Mystic_Reverie> now i have it installed im being forced to study terminal crap instead of just getting help installing stuff
<Mystic_Reverie> if u guys werent gonna help the way i wanted, i never would have installed it
<Mystic_Reverie> cheers snobs
<leftyfb> Mystic_Reverie: you chose a terminal application to play games, not us
<leftyfb> Mystic_Reverie: There's also no need for the namecalling
<Mystic_Reverie> its not just that
<Mystic_Reverie> its other stuff
<Mystic_Reverie> dont advertise to people ubuntu is easy to use, then reel people in, then not give them simple help when they want it.  i dont want to study terminal and install guides
<Mystic_Reverie> and made that clear
<Mystic_Reverie> if u wont help people like me.. then let us know before hand, and we wont even install linux
<leftyfb> What help have you asked for with ubuntu that you have not received?
<Mystic_Reverie> ive received a lot of help.  but also received a lot of comment about 'g ostudy ' go read up' also
<Mystic_Reverie> i was never interested in doing that
<Mystic_Reverie> and if i knew it was a prerequisite, i simply would not have installed it
<Mystic_Reverie> the attitud ein her echanges once i actually install it
<Mystic_Reverie> pushing me to leatrn things i explicitly said i have no interest in spending time on
<leftyfb> Mystic_Reverie: again, you installed an interpreter to play games. Nobody does that and refuses to read the documentation on how to use it
<Mystic_Reverie> there is a gui for it
<Mystic_Reverie> and thats just one example anyway
<leftyfb> Mystic_Reverie: The package you installed is not a GUI that opens up on it's own.
<Mystic_Reverie> yes , but i ibvioulsy wanted a gui
<Mystic_Reverie> everyone knows that
<Mystic_Reverie> instead i ge tsnobby comments about what i installed
<Mystic_Reverie> whats the point
<leftyfb> Mystic_Reverie: sorry, but not everyone follows everything you say. Some of us have lives outside an IRC support channel.
<Mystic_Reverie> i dso too
<Mystic_Reverie> thats why i was wary about installing linux. and was told it would be this way
<Mystic_Reverie> yet it is
<Mystic_Reverie> told it wouldnt be this way *
<leftyfb> Then don't expect laser perfect support for your every need ... especially from a community of volunteers. If you don't want to read how to do anything or are not interested in ever opening up a terminal, then go back to Windows.
<Mystic_Reverie> then tell me that IN THE FIRST PLACE .  u people reel people like me in. with literal promises of linux being as easy as windows
<leftyfb> You have unfounded expectations that everything with a computer will always be point and click and everything will be handed to you on a silver platter. Good luck with that
<leftyfb> "you people"
<Mystic_Reverie> and when it gets hard,  slag us of for not learning terminal.. or tell us go bac kto windows
<leftyfb> ok, goodbye
<Mystic_Reverie> yea
<Mystic_Reverie> fuk off
<leftyfb> bets on when he'll be back?
<hggdh> oh darn! Now we lost a paying customer!
<hggdh> wait
<hggdh> it is free...
<hggdh> ah well
#ubuntu-discuss 2018-07-17
<guiverc> :) @ leftyfb (#ubuntu)
<blackflow> lol trolling is offtopic! ;)
<lotuspsychje> good morning to all
<EriC^^> morning all
<lordievader> Good morning
<ducasse> good morning!
<lordievader> Morning ducasse
<ducasse> hi lordievader - all well today?
<lordievader> Yes, doing alright here. How are you?
<ducasse> all good, hoping it will rain today as forecast promised
<lordievader> Here it is just going to be warm -.-
<ducasse> probably here as well, like every other time they've promised rain this summer
<lordievader> It would be nice for a change
<ducasse> everything is scorched here, huge risk of forest fires
<lordievader> Same here. Perhaps to a lesser extend, but the risk of forest fires is a lot higher than normal.
<ducasse> there's already been a bunch of them this summer
<lotuspsychje> hey pragmaticenigma good day sir
<lotuspsychje> supprt is slowly going up
<BluesKaj> HI folks
<lotuspsychje> hey there BluesKaj
<lotuspsychje> all good there?
<BluesKaj> hi lotuspsychje, yes, fine here, and you?
<lotuspsychje> all great here tnx
<leftyfb> fdgfdg: I thought you were going back to Windows
<lotuspsychje> !cookie | EriC^^
<ubot5> EriC^^: Wow! You're such a great helper, you deserve a cookie!
<fdgfdg> dont give a damn wat u think
<lotuspsychje> fdgfdg: please mind your language in the ubuntu channels
<fdgfdg> since i hav elinux in my drive, i can use it if i cna get a few things ironed out
<fdgfdg> but dont expect help from you, dont worry
<lotuspsychje> fdgfdg: talk professional here
<lotuspsychje> fdgfdg: you try to give advice to users, you should know better talking polite
<fdgfdg> im not going thru it all again. i have my reasons for being frustrated and ive stated them already. justified in my opnion
<fdgfdg> some people in here are snobby fanboys and i dont like it
<leftyfb> fdgfdg: enough with the namecalling. Last warning
<fdgfdg> oh go and eat shit.. your mothers
<lotuspsychje> fdgfdg: its your life, you can be frustrated if you want..but dont mirror this to irc channel
<fdgfdg> like i care about your warnings
<lotuspsychje> tnx leftyfb
<leftyfb> wish I could do it in the other chan
<leftyfb> He'll find his own way though
<EriC^^> lotuspsychje: thx for the cookie :P
<lotuspsychje> great work on dzip
<EriC^^> thanks
<pragmaticenigma> leftyfb 's other name is obi-wan
<lordievader> A real jedi among us, cool :D
<lordievader> That fdgfdg guy is quite bitter, ain't he.
<lotuspsychje> he was trying to warn users in main
<lotuspsychje> <fdgfdg> make sure u understand linux demanding terminal stuff befur eu jump completel
<lotuspsychje> lol
<lotuspsychje> my terminal is also very demanding, i argue alot with him
<pragmaticenigma> It's unfortunate to see someone bitter'd by their experience. I've been working with Gnu/Linux off and on since 1999. I didn't make it a full time decision until 2009/10 ish. I think some are delusional that they can install it and it will "just work" like windows does
<lordievader>  > my terminal is also very demanding, i argue alot with him
<lordievader> My terminal is very submissive.
<lordievader> `sudo` isn't. It insults me ð
<lordievader>  > It's unfortunate to see someone bitter'd by their experience. I've been working with Gnu/Linux off and on since 1999. I didn't make it a full time decision until 2009/10 ish. I think some are delusional that they can install it and it will "just work" like windows does
<lordievader> It is getting better. Still not quite there but lots of stuff does work out of the box.
<pragmaticenigma> lordievader: I've had no issues since I switched to running full time. Though I'm comfortable around computer more than most people. I know that if I break it, I can usually fix it. Most of my breaks are bad configurations which are often resovled by deleting the config file and letting the application recreate it
<pragmaticenigma> One of the many things I've enjoyed about the linux ecosystem. That configurations are not buried deep inside some goofy registry database hive, but are simple files that can be moved/swapped out easily
<lordievader> That is true for most programs. But sometimes things are scattered all over the place. "Does the config in cwd, your homedir, /etc or /usr/<something> break everything" ð
<pragmaticenigma> lordievader: I guess that's where my knowledge on the setup helps. Most applications look first in their install directory, then in the system path, then in /etc, then in /home/user
<lordievader> I know. I'm just saying that it is sometimes annoying to find where something is configured.
<lordievader> Don't get me wrong, it is alot easier to find the location than on Windows, but still.
<blockflaw> lordievader: oh you rebuilt sudo for insults? ;)
<hggdh> the thing here is that -- used as they usually are with smart phones -- people expect any OS to be like a phone.
<lordievader> No, I enabled the use-flag ð
<blockflaw> lordievader: that's what I meant ;)  (I have that too on gentoo systems)
<lordievader> Yeah, my Ubuntu/Debian systems don't insult me.
<hggdh> also, on Windows, most of the times the file extension is linked to a program. Had this happened with the inform files, Mystic would have had no issues
<hggdh> so, there is probably a bug lurking there, for UX. But... they refused to go that way
<oerheks> ugh that name, he got kicked out of ##linux yesterday
<leftyfb> hggdh: no issues with opening a game with inform ... I guarantee you he had others queued up ready for the arguing
<hggdh> this is the same sdgfdg above, as far as I can see
<blockflaw> lordievader: the insults are in the sudoers.so though, even on deb/ubu. it's just missing that --configure thingy
<lordievader> Hmm, I see. Never really looked into it.
<hggdh> leftyfb: I do not doubt, he has approached moving to a new OS with unreasonable expectations
<blockflaw> lordievader: otoh one I remember:    strings /usr/lib/sudo/sudoers.so | grep -i honk
<blockflaw> it's a racial slur btw, so be warned.
<blockflaw> I wonder if the mere presence of these violate some Ubuntu/Canonical policy. Recently, FreeBSD saw some serious drama with a sjw attack on "hitler quotes" in "fortune" cookies.
<blockflaw> (I call it a "sjw attack" derogatively, because they attacked only the hitler quotes, leaving Stalin ones. Stalin killed millions too, so....)
<leftyfb> oerheks: I don't see anything about Mystic being kicked or even saying anything in ##linux for this whole month
<pragmaticenigma> blockflaw: Canoncial removed the contentious fortune db entries awhile back. you can still get them though, I think you have to enable the universe package repo.
<blockflaw> pragmaticenigma: well they're in my regular Bionic  sudoers.so
<blockflaw> another one:   strings /usr/lib/sudo/sudoers.so | grep -i burrito
<blockflaw> maybe sudo is compiled not to utilize them, but they're present nonetheless.
<oerheks> err, he was taken voice .. anyway
<blockflaw> btw, he got kciked out of #debian earlier today for the same reason.
<blockflaw> came in there and started the whole innocent help request going on, culminating with same crap.
<oerheks> oh, i thought it was linux
<pragmaticenigma> pretty sure they were around yesterday too
<lotuspsychje> !azure
<pragmaticenigma> *NOT FOUND*
<lotuspsychje> lol
<lotuspsychje> google hits the MS azure site
<lotuspsychje> no ubuntu wiki
<pragmaticenigma> I thought the Azure install image was managed by Microsoft
<oerheks> yay .. https://news.softpedia.com/news/lubuntu-18-10-may-support-32-bit-pcs-if-there-s-demand-here-s-how-you-can-help-521998.shtml
<oerheks> finally the chromium team got some air
<oerheks> and firefox team
<pragmaticenigma> I should spin up my Celeron 2GHz and install the image... start testing
<oerheks> ohhh i have such machine too, my 1st newly build pc
<pragmaticenigma> ohh! I should do that too! I have an old Athlon 1Ghz
<oerheks> wow, with AGPx4 ?
<oerheks> ide hdd
<oerheks> floppy ?
<pragmaticenigma> I don't remember what the spec was on the AGP slot... but yeah.. floppy, 2 ATA100 and 2 ATA66 PATA ports, 2 12 pin serial
<pragmaticenigma> If only I had a picture
<pragmaticenigma> it was the first PC i built, it was also the first PC that i had requiring the use of a heat sink on the chipset
<oerheks> those machines i leave on the street, i don't even try to open them any more
<pragmaticenigma> I've mostly kept it around for nostalgia
<pragmaticenigma> It fell out of favor when Fedora wouldn't play nice with it
<pragmaticenigma> Who is this Werterd person??
 * blackflow puts $5 on a "petro" sockpuppet
<blackflow> oerheks: I say we let it die. there's plenty of software, distros and installations, still supporting 32-bits for _years_ to come. the "Mah Athlon!" crowd can keep on installing 16.04 and methinks 18.04 still does 32 bits?
<pragmaticenigma> blackflow: 32bit spins were dropped with 18.04 with the exception of Xubuntu and Lubuntu
<pragmaticenigma> blackflow: Or rather 32 bit was only provided with Lubuntu and Xubuntu
<pragmatic_enigma> You can continue to install 32 bit via the mini.iso version as well. As that does not require special compiling to run, it
<blackflow> pragmatic_enigma: ah good start, then. now, Steam, would you kindly step into the 21st century and bump to 64 bits....
<_pragmatic_enigm> free node and hex chat are being a pain :-(
<pragmaticenigma> there ... all better
<oerheks> :-)
<ducasse> :O
<hggdh> oerheks: xenial is ending?
<hggdh> :-) answered
<oerheks> yeah, trusty, who is using that for serious work..
<blackflow> a whole bunch of peeps
<hggdh> in general, sysadmins are *very* conservative
<blackflow> something something if it ain't broken don't fix it :)
<JimBuntu> oerheks, I still use trusty for some serious work, but keep it behind firewall appliances and UFW
<oerheks> meh.. if they say cinnamon, i find it hard to believe they run ubuntu, i think mint or the other one
<oerheks> i am not sure trusty gets all the patches for meltdown, spectre 1/1.1/1.2 ...
<blackflow> it certainly won't be helped by upstream. the upstream would love everyone to run the latest kernel only.
<hggdh> well, you do have the hardware enablement kernels for LTS
<blackflow> that's a lifesaver. I'm personally irked that Bionic is on 4.15. it was EOL before Bionic was released even. feh!
<oerheks> i am still on 17.10 ..
<oerheks> but my lappy is up2date :-D
<blackflow> oerheks: btw, two more days, if you haven't found out already (your previous q about artful EOL date)
<oerheks> ah oke, thank you
<oerheks> yes, i couldn't find that exact date, i thought somewhere 26/27
<JimBuntu> !release
<ubot5> Ubuntu releases a new version every 6 months. Each version is supported for 9 months (non-LTS) or 5 years (LTS). More info at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Releases and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TimeBasedReleases
<JimBuntu> meh - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Releases
<hggdh> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-announce/2018-July/000232.html
<leftyfb> nacc:
<leftyfb> <psyk> nacc, i965-va-driver exists, but that supports 965 and up - i need 945 support which exists in the i915-va-driver package.
<leftyfb> * XThomas has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
<leftyfb> <nacc> psyk: again, there is *no* such package in ubuntu, even in 12.04
<leftyfb> That's why I told you
<nacc> leftyfb: read what package they are asking about again
<nacc> they want i915-va-driver
<leftyfb> ah, right
<leftyfb> sorry :)
<leftyfb> I'll shutup now
<nacc> yeah :)
<nacc> it's np, they are being obstinate and a bit rude
<nacc> Bashing-om: not worth getting involved
<Bashing-om> nacc: :)) - Have not kept up on flash .. seems I am way out of date .
<hggdh> out of curiosity -- does Chromium (or Chrome) still support flash? I dimly remember it not being supported anymore. But I am probably confusing it
<daftykins> pretty sure i made use of pepperflash on Windows for MLB.com last season, but they finally made their player HTML5 this year
<daftykins> i'm not even sure if Firefox on Windows can still use flash since i refuse to install it
<Bashing-om> Our bot is not telling the truth : sysop@x1810:~$ apt list adobe-flashplugin >> adobe-flashplugin/cosmic 1:20180410.1-0ubuntu1 amd64 .
<daftykins> flashplugin-installer seems to be the one
<nacc> !info adobe-flashplugin
<ubot5> Package adobe-flashplugin does not exist in bionic
<nacc> !info adobe-flashplugin cosmic
<ubot5> Package adobe-flashplugin does not exist in cosmic
<nacc> Bashing-om: apt-cache policy adobe-flashplugin?
<Bashing-om> nacc: Installed: (none) ;  Candidate: 1:20180410.1-0ubuntu1 ; 500 http://archive.canonical.com/ubuntu cosmic/partner amd64 Packages  .
<nacc> Bashing-om: weird, rmadison doesn't see it
<daftykins> does the above installer package grab a deb and install that name or something?
<nacc> launchpad says it's there
<nacc> i was pretty sure rmadison and the bot looked in partner
<Bashing-om> nacc: restricted to AMD only ?
<nacc> !info skype
<ubot5> Package skype does not exist in bionic
<nacc> Bashing-om: not sure, honestly
<nacc> doing some other stuff, so don't have time to look into it right now :)
<nacc> partner is weird anyways
<Bashing-om> nacc: Old skype will be dropped by MS next month: https://arstechnica.com/?p=1343771 .
<nacc> yeah
<nacc> and it's a snap now
<nacc> i was just tryuing to find another partner deb
<daftykins> i recently hit update and got the new v8 here on Windows, huge regret
<daftykins> i'm forced to see silly emoticons now :(
#ubuntu-discuss 2018-07-18
<unclefoo> blackflow: I'm okay with trusting the software, but it sucks I also have to trust my ISP, anyone else on my wlan and my DNS server.
<leftyfb> VPN's?
<leftyfb> use mirrors?
<blackflow> unclefoo: and your motherboard with that IME chip
<blackflow> it runs a full Minix installation, y'know.
<unclefoo> We'll have to deal with Intel later, RISC-V maybe.
<blackflow> but indeed, this ubuntu key verification is a bit..... insufficient. it basically assumes you once obtained the key, trusted it, nothing bad happened, and now you have it for future verification.
<unclefoo> leftyfb: Then I've got to trust the VPN runner.
<unclefoo> Shipping the key with the installation is sensible, but it doesn't help me get the key if I'm not running Ubuntu.
<leftyfb> unclefoo: then turn off your computer and go find a nice big rock to live under
<blackflow> but one could argue that whatever method you chose, unless you walked over to canonical offices yourself and got the key on read-only cdrom or something, any method is subject to chicken and the egg problem in setting up a trust chain.
<unclefoo> Well, for now I'm definitely going to be trusting the CA people.
<unclefoo> I use them for all of my online services.
<unclefoo> So I'd prefer that Ubuntu just piggybacked on that?
<unclefoo> There's no reason to do something worse.
<leftyfb> blackflow: The Canonical office in the U.S. would just get them from the mirror ;)
<unclefoo> Some of the mirrors use TLS, ie https://mirror.hmc.edu/ubuntu-releases/
<blackflow> oh, shi-   it's 4am.... I have to scram.
<unclefoo> leftyfb: So you just navigate to the HTTP site, download the ISO then install it.
<hggdh> keep in mind that all Ubuntu packages are signed, and installation will abort if the package signature does not match
<leftyfb> unclefoo: crazy right?
<leftyfb> hggdh: but the lizard people!
<blackflow> hggdh: unless your ubuntu is trojaned, which is teh whole point, trusting that initial installation because ISOs are obtained over http and checksums too.
<hggdh> leftyfb: but the children! Who will protect the children?
<blackflow> Elon Musk!
<hggdh> if the signing key have been compromised, there is not much that can be done. Trojaning the repository is secondary
<unclefoo> hggdh: I don't understand what you mean.  You're talking about the collections of packages that ship with the ISO?
<hggdh> if the *sources* are compromised... then there will be a good signature, and there is nothing HTTPS will do to solve it
<hggdh> unclefoo: the ISO carries also the public keys, so there is a chance of compromising it, yes. It will always boil down to one critical path, somewhere
<unclefoo> So, I understand that we're fucked if the Ubuntu devs all get compromised, or their release boxes do or anything like that.
<leftyfb> turn off computer, find large rock to live under. That's the only solution
<unclefoo> I just want to verify the ISO I install is the one signed by some dev.
<hggdh> aye
<leftyfb> unclefoo: then use the md5 available on the site
<hggdh> you have a series of hashes to compare with
<unclefoo> But the md5 comes over HTTP
<blackflow> hggdh: no, see the problem here is that the official Ubuntu documentation on verifying the checksums is by using gpkg hpk to download the key, which is NOT over TLS or verified with another key first.
<unclefoo> So the attacker just going to change that too.
 * leftyfb sigh
<blackflow> the problem is that Ubuntu doesn't display prominently on, say, ubuntu.com, over https, what the signature of that key is. that per se would be "good enough".
<hggdh> oh, so we are also talking about DNS poisoning?
<hggdh> and how HTTPS solves it?
<unclefoo> Right, if Ubuntu announced "THESE ARE THE RELEASE PUBLIC KEYS", I would be kind of happy.
<blackflow> like gentoo does it:  https://www.gentoo.org/downloads/signatures/
<hggdh> please do not get me wrong. HTTPS *is* important
<blackflow> hggdh: https at least offers _some_ protection against threat actors who don't have the resources to corrupt a CA and mitm you.
<unclefoo> Right.
<blackflow> any skiddie with a wifi sniffer can MITM your http connection
<unclefoo> Like someone who knows my wifi password.
<unclefoo> exactly
<hggdh> blackflow: and I hijacked your DNS, which now servers *my* gentoo page...
<unclefoo> Doesn't matter because you don't have the cert.
<unclefoo> well the corresponding private key at lesat.
<blackflow> hggdh: AND you also have a valid cert on that?
<unclefoo> Unless you use your DNS poisoning to attack the CA domain validation.
<hggdh> unclefoo: but I have also created my own keys. AND I have re-packaged everything
<unclefoo> But my user agent will refuse the connection.
<unclefoo> Because it can't verify the cert chain.
<blackflow> right. and with HSTS it will even refuse temporary override on bad cert.
<hggdh> also, keep in mind that cert validation is done by the root, not by the user cert
<leftyfb> blackflow: That would require the "kiddie" created their own custom malicious ubuntu iso and serving it up to you .... you are targeted. At that point, you've got bigger problems to deal with
<hggdh> <sigh/>. I created, once, this very attack. I had all certs in the root chain "redone". Validation was perfect
<blackflow> the point is, users have no way to verify those keys with "reasonable level of trust".
<blackflow> leftyfb: yeah but no if it were offered over https
<hggdh> blackflow: you go to *my* site, with *my certificates, with *my* root chain. I server it over HTTPS, and validation is correct.
<leftyfb> blackflow: anyone can get a cert and service it up if you're hijacking DNS
<blackflow> hggdh: no
<leftyfb> service/serve
<unclefoo> You can't change the root certs in my browser.
<hggdh> blackflow: again. I h*have* done that as a PoC
<blackflow> sounds like you don't know how that works.   your root chain would need to be installed on my computer first.
<unclefoo> Exactly.
<hggdh> but I am NOT changing your roots. I am using the same CA
<leftyfb> uh
<blackflow> hggdh: which one? one of the public ones in ca-certificates?
<leftyfb> this is 100% possible
<hggdh> I buy a cert from Verisign
<hggdh> you are no wiser
<unclefoo> For your domain
<hggdh> and I got in
<unclefoo> Or for ubuntus domain?
<blackflow> it's possible alright, but how likely? back to the original statement of "having resources to corrupt a CA", or to buy unauthorized but valid cert from a bad one.
<leftyfb> again how likely
<leftyfb> we can play this game all niht
<leftyfb> night*
<leftyfb> "but what if"
<hggdh> yep
<blackflow> then let's drop https completely.
<leftyfb> just download the damn iso like millions of others and get over it
<leftyfb> or don't
<unclefoo> In 5 years going to hear about the Ubuntu-ISO-Botnet-Variant-88XX
<hggdh> this is one of the reasons (among a truckload of them) I have *very* wary of X.509
<leftyfb> unclefoo: and I'll track you down and apologize
<blackflow> you are saying that just because SOME threat actors have the ability to obtain a valid but illegal cert, then EVERY actor can too
<unclefoo> leftyfb: We'll get beers.
<leftyfb> I don't drink beer
<hggdh> why not. Microsoft found it the hard way
<leftyfb> too many chemtrails in it ;)
<hggdh> (as many others)
<blackflow> security is not a switch, not black and white, its'a  process. there are levels, probabilities. using https solves a number of intrusion vectors. not all, but non-zero also.
<hggdh> even more the amount of CAs that come embedded is... absolutely amazing. *any* CA would do the trick
<unclefoo> Right, but we're getting Certificate Transparency.
<blackflow> yup. any one of them in ca-certs can be used
<hggdh> blackflow: correct. And security is layered, so you end up with (sigh) protection in depth
<leftyfb> unclefoo: file a bug on launchpad against ubuntu to host the signatures publicly behind https like gentoo does
<blackflow> the question is. Can Kremlin do it to plant racy Stormy Daniels pics on your computer? sure.    Can  Herp Derp, the kid down the street, do it? Probably not. Can that kid sniff your wifi and mitm your http (no s) connections? probably yes.
<hggdh> I do contract work -- I am a consultant. I can count on my fingers the number (out of, probably, the low hundreds) of companies I have been in that I would trust my data
<unclefoo> leftyfb: Maybe. Good to talk about it before making a ruckus though.
<blackflow> some routers STILL are not patched for KRACK. I had a live demo to a company the other day.
<hggdh> oh routers are another bascket of worms
<hggdh> as are, pretty much, all IoT crap
<blackflow> exactly. so it's so easy to plant a trojaned ISO to someone in your network doing it over wifi. :)  with a bit of effort, and no need to corrupt a CA, that someone will have  no means to verify the ISO because the key is obtained over http that you're mitm-ing, too ;)
<hggdh> blackflow: NOW this is more realistic. You did not download from the official repos, you are using an ISO laying around
<blackflow> no you used KRACK to break into the wifi network, guessed the router panel password which was, believe it or not, "admin", or the factory sticker with the admin password is still on the back side of it, you changed the DNS and anyone in that wifi network is loading the iso from your laptop, even though they're accessing http://ubuntu.com   ;)
<hggdh> the whole thing ends up with what is usually called "due diligence". If no due diligence performed, then nothing can be guaranteed
<hggdh> put in a different way: how many of us *always* check the received cert in an HTTPS session?
<blackflow> and ubuntu does no due diligence, by not offering https downloads. that's the whole point.
<unclefoo> hggdh: My browser always does.
<unclefoo> And I always verify the domain.
<hggdh> no. Your browser always check that the certificate CN matches the FQSN, and that the browser's sotred CA chain is verified
<hggdh> which is, already, a corruption of the standard.
<hggdh> now enters unicode, and bets are off
<blackflow> depends. browsers have protection against mixed charsets.
<hggdh> blackflow: oh, OK. So you are going to trust something that may, or may not, be correct? It depends, right?
<blackflow> (I'm assuming you're talking about IDN homograph attack)
<unclefoo> I think we all agree that security is a spectrum.
<hggdh> among others, yes
<hggdh> unclefoo: thank you. This is indeed the point
<blackflow> all I'm saying is, since having https offers MORE protection thatn not having https, why not have https.
<unclefoo> Serving your distros installation media over HTTP seems like far down the insecure side of the spectrum.
<unclefoo> Would you check your email over an HTTP connection?
<blackflow> exactly.   or at least serving the keys, which also happens over HTTP it appears.
<hggdh> blackflow: I agree with you there. HTTPS does not solve the world's problem, but helps
<blackflow> it doesn't help against Kremlin, but it sure denies Herp Derp, the kid down the street, from MITM-ing your pr0n  ;)
<hggdh> the thing is if the ONLY validation you have is HTTPS, then you are dead anyways.
<hggdh> again, I like multiple layers
<hggdh> I would like to have HTTPS on the repos as well.
<blackflow> hggdh: I agree, but..... which of the multiple layers is offered here by Ubuntu? The download is over HTTP, the keys are obtained over HTTP. nowhere is any due diligent attempt to offer _some_ level of connection encryption when fetching those.
<hggdh> (and this has been discussed ad nauseam within Ubuntu)
<unclefoo> Any links to the discussions?
<hggdh> you have the keys off a key server; you have the keys in a signed package; you have the kernel signed with a different key
<blackflow> hggdh: the keys from the key servers are obtained over http
<unclefoo> How do I know which key from the key server?
<unclefoo> It doesn't so much matter that the key is obtained over HTTP if I know what the right public key is.
<unclefoo> But since I don't know, HTTPS is nice.
<hggdh> the packages are signed, you need to grab the signing key from them
<unclefoo> I see.
<blackflow> gpkg --keyserver hkp://keyserver.ubuntu.com ...      see that hkp there?
<blackflow> *gpg  (lol)
<hggdh> unclefoo: I do not remember there, I think at least one of the discussions was on a ML. ubuntu-devel?
<hggdh> don't remember
<blackflow> hggdh: the issue here, and this whole discussion, was about that first step of gettin ubuntu installed, and veryfing the ISO to begin with. If that's verified and you have it installed, with keys and all, then it's no problem. but that first verification is a problem.
<hggdh> it is always a problem, a known issue with distribution (where is the key, who has the key)
<hggdh> this is why off-channel validation is important (and almost never done)
<blackflow> right, and my whole point is that, *some* level of trust can be established if the keys were offered on a page over https, like that gentoo link above.
<blackflow> and I'll take *some* over *none* any day ;)
<unclefoo> Right, that's a good summary I think.
<hggdh> blackflow: I absolutely agree. The Ubuntu public keys should be published in a clear, HTTPS-encapsulated site
<hggdh> and clearly pointed to in many different places
<hggdh> (I thought we had something like that somewhere, but wiki.u.c is very slow)
<blackflow> precisely. I mean, y'all have been joking earlier about lizard people and conspiracies, but let's look at the facts:    snaps are being trojaned because they can be. gentoo github was compromised because some herpderm didn't use 2FA. mint's ISOs were trojaned. Arch AUR packages were trojaned.    there's a LOT of incentive to compromise linux distros infrastructure. let's not kid ourselves with
<blackflow> lizzard people and conspiracy theories, the threat is _very_ real.
<unclefoo> The fingerprints in this tutorial https://tutorials.ubuntu.com/tutorial/tutorial-how-to-verify-ubuntu#3 (pointed out by blackflow) are in fact the fingerprints for the keys that signed by Ubuntu ISO.
<unclefoo> But it doesn't do a good job advertising that they are the legit keys, imo.
<hggdh> agree
<hggdh> but I am being called now for a movie
<blackflow> I've read somewhere that Cosmic will be all about increasing security. Cheers to that, let's make it better!   now I really have to scram. it's now 5am and the sun is coming out. I can see the horizon line changed from pitch black to black / deep blue  line  :)
<unclefoo> cya guys
<blackflow> o/
<unclefoo> blackflow, hggdh Here we go, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/FAQ
<unclefoo> Towards the bottom.
<lotuspsychje> good morning to all
<Bashing-om> WB lotuspsychje .
<lotuspsychje> tnx Bashing-om
<lotuspsychje> nice job on uwn Bashing-om
<Bashing-om> lotuspsychje: tnx .. "WE" do try . Do better with better word smiths :)
<lotuspsychje> :p
<lotuspsychje> 2 jimbuntus
<lotuspsychje> hmm whats a logbot
<Bashing-om> GN all ..laters \o
<ducasse> good morning
<lordievader> Good morning
<ducasse> hi lordievader - all well today?
<lordievader> Yeah, doing good.
<ducasse> lots to do today?
<lordievader> Yeah, as usual.
<lordievader> You?
<ducasse> i'm about to start the last artful->bionic upgrade, since it goes eol tomorrow - have kept postponing. also a couple of routeros upgrades to do.
<lordievader> I believe most of my machines are quite up to date. Lets see.
<lordievader> Oldest is Debian 9.2.
<ducasse> that's not too old, afaik? i should also do something about my fileserver, but i'll do that when i'm ready to swap out the system disk - do a fresh install.
<lordievader> Nope, current stable. Wonder why not all are 9.5 though.
<ducasse> dunno, haven't run debian in ages. thinking of spinning up a machine with testing or sid, though, just to get familiar with it again.
<lordievader> I like Debian more for vms than Ubuntu.
<ducasse> as host or guest?
<lordievader> Guests
<lordievader> My hypervisors are mostly Gentoo with one Ubuntu exception.
<oerheks> morning :-)
 * tsimonq2 spits out drink
<tsimonq2> Gentoo?!
<blackflow> Y U HATE GENTOO! let's hear it.
<oerheks> never ran gentoo
<tsimonq2> Gentoo makes your computer a freaking space heater. :P
<oerheks> fedora, suse, ubuntu, debian ..
<tsimonq2> ^
<oerheks> fedora got the nicest visual boot
<oerheks> no resolution change at all
<blackflow> gentoo taught me all I know about linux distros, how they work inside, how to fix things when they break. it completely demystified it. it's a very valuable distro.
<oerheks> i wasted so many hours trying suse without internet/docs...
<oerheks> only when a professional helped me in 2008, i got started
<blackflow> hah I got started with linux around that time as well. and with OpenSuSE. 10.3 was my first ever linux distro as a full daily driver (ditched windows xp).
<oerheks> i feel silly when i say all my hardware since then is pretty good recognised, all the problems in #u i never experienced myself
<oerheks> so i think the number of users are huge, if they have no issues too
<blackflow> the part I disliked about OpenSuSE is, incredibly, YaST. it's not really optional, as it introduces a lot of config abstraction in the backend so even if you wanted to change things without a panel, using those abstractions anyway was the only way, or you risk breakage on next update of something.
<oerheks> the first magical line on fedora: yum install yumex
<lordievader> I agree, through the well documented installation procedure of Gentoo you learn a lot about Linux.
<oerheks> then installing the good-bad-ugly
<oerheks> gentoo and arch, seems like i have to try this too
<Tegu> after thos, linux from scratch. (I have yet to try it)
<BluesKaj> Hi folks
<daftykins> heya \o
<BluesKaj> hi daftykins
<daftykins> hot weather continuing over there?
<BluesKaj> no, it's gone, 26 today
<daftykins> oh that'd be plenty to me xD
<BluesKaj> hot out west again tno
<BluesKaj> cold here last night, 10C
<daftykins> mm had a cool couple of nights where i had to close the windows again
<BluesKaj> yup
<daftykins> i'm off to London on Friday, bit concerned as there's meant to be an ongoing heatwave so it'll heat up to the 30s up there
<daftykins> i'd rather hide from the heat back home :D
<BluesKaj> same
<BluesKaj> guess the ocean moderates the temps there a lot
<daftykins> mmm the tides coming up the English Channel i think
<daftykins> and coming back down from the North sea probably
<BluesKaj> I'm 25 km from one of the Great Lakes here and that helps somewhat
<daftykins> if i remember right a friend said they factor in hugely for your snowfall too, we might see a light dusting of snow one night every few years, super mild weather
<daftykins> i should be packing tools for this trip, hmm
<BluesKaj> bermuda current makes all the difference for the British Isles and Europe ...no such thing here
<daftykins> mmm that's the one, i can't remember what it was that causes it, but in the winters lately it all changes direction and we end up with siberian air that brought us snow
<BluesKaj> yeah, you guys in the UK mainland are actually much further north in latitude than we are , even here in "Northern Ontario"
<daftykins> well i'll be flying up there on Friday :D the island of mine is quite southern in comparison - https://goo.gl/maps/Y7p8wreLMNu
<BluesKaj> yeah, I'm familiar with your location
<daftykins> ah my mistake :) just checking
<BluesKaj> I'm, a bit of geography nut
<BluesKaj> I like to know where people I chat with are located
<daftykins> :D
<lotuspsychje> good afternoon to all
<lotuspsychje> atariOs !
<lotuspsychje> lol
<BluesKaj> hey lotuspsychje
<lotuspsychje> hey BluesKaj
<lotuspsychje> painted the shutters today
 * tomreyn waves
<lotuspsychje> hey there tomreyn
<daftykins> ah you heard about all the painting i was doing and got jealous eh lotus? :D
<tomreyn> hey lotus
<lotuspsychje> yeah lol
<lotuspsychje> !info libinput bionic
<ubot5> Package libinput does not exist in bionic
<blackflow> there's a whole lot of them, from the "libinput" source package
<blackflow> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libinput
<lotuspsychje> so if cosmic has it, its not in backports?
<blackflow> backports aren't made for all packages
<lotuspsychje> so ppa it is then cause proposed might give a new nightmare
<tomreyn> how do you actualy tlel what's in proposed? neither packages.ubuntu.com nor rmadison can tell.
<BluesKaj> use launchpad for proposed ppas
<BluesKaj>  one can search in launchpad, tomreyn
<tomreyn> thanks, i assumed that's possible. not sure convenient, though ;)
<tomreyn> s/sure/super/
<lotuspsychje> or would apt-cache say, once enabled in repos?
<lotuspsychje> but then its too late of course
<oerheks> this hans__ dude is not even running ubuntu
<oerheks> troll
<lotuspsychje> yeah he was offensive yesterday
<lotuspsychje> one to keep an eye on
<lotuspsychje> hans_	lotuspsychje, wrong, 32bit ubuntu will run just fine on 64bit hardware
<lotuspsychje> welcome Android361abc
<oerheks> Android should be added to bug 1
<ubot5> bug 1 in Ubuntu Malaysia LoCo Team "Microsoft has a majority market share" [Critical,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1
<oerheks> *hips*
<lotuspsychje> lol
<lotuspsychje> bbl chicken wok a la lotus
<lotuspsychje> why did the chicken cross my pan?
<oerheks> is this wr dude hans_ _ sidekick ? lolz
<tomreyn> #
<blackflow> lotuspsychje: to get to the inner side of your mouth? :D
<lotuspsychje> :p
<oerheks> zesle .. format C: and reinstall
<blackflow> zesle... sounds like nestle and thus like some toy you get packaged up in the cereal box...    Zesle(r) - Web Panels for Linux Kids!
<nacc> lol
<nacc> web panels are such a terrible idea
<blackflow> if someone really needs one, there's really just one way to go for sure.  centos + cpanel.
<blackflow> everything else, with the exception of plesk that I don't recommend for other reasons, is toys, broken, insecure, and more mess than there should be.
<blackflow> (mind you, cpanel is a HUGE mess of things, it starts with "Disable SELinux" ffs  --   but of all panels, it works best)
<hggdh> cockpit is nice
<blackflow> isn't that just web interface for systemd?
<lotuspsychje> its a all-in-one app
<hggdh> anyway, he had problems to begin with when he installed zesle. If he had Apache installed previously, then zesle would only install with a --force-overwrite
<lotuspsychje> blackflow: but yes, manages also systemd
<nacc> hggdh: unless they did an evil version bump
<blackflow> I mean, does it just manage services and containers, or does it set up the whole hosting environemnt with httpd + email + accounts + domains + dns?
<blackflow> usually people craving for panels need that, one-click full stack deployment.
<hggdh> nacc: indeed. Still, he should --purge zesle, god knows what it brought in
<lotuspsychje> one for you hggdh
<nacc> hggdh: yep
<hggdh> nacc: actually, no evil version bump. If he first installed apache, then zesle installation would fail with a similar conflict; if, conversely, he first installed zesle, then apache install would fail with a conflict (as would any updates)
<nacc> hggdh: ah ok, i hadn't looked closely yet
<hggdh> no matter what, nobody knows what changes were introduced, so I would consider his current web install as tainted
<nacc> yeah
<nacc> and i wouldn't ever trust some repo that wants its own apache
<hggdh> +1
<oerheks> blackflow,  system-config-printer ... but i dont see why one needs this to run from commandline
<blackflow> oerheks: they're not even using ubuntu.... just want that utility, I guess
<oerheks> cups cli is what he needs
<oerheks> anyway, i am off, biking with Drabber
<lotuspsychje> lol i thought ive read bikini
<leftyfb> we're getting a lot of them these days huh?
<lotuspsychje> yeah leftyfb
<lotuspsychje> user count seem to increase last days
<lotuspsychje> and i think we have a nice volunteers team active at this time too
<lotuspsychje> stable and professional crew :p
<leftyfb> I mean the .... challenging users
<leftyfb> though 18.04 does seem to have a lot of problems with video drivers with all the questions/issues that have been coming up
<lotuspsychje> leftyfb: hmm dont you think compared to unity, graphics issues have reduced?
<leftyfb> Unity really shouldn't made much difference in video driver issues, it's just a DE
<lotuspsychje> well, the real deal will be at .1
<lotuspsychje> then we might know whats top priority
<lotuspsychje> leftyfb: in your opinion what would be top issue on bionic graphics?
<leftyfb> drivers
<lotuspsychje> on random cards?
<leftyfb> people seem to have a lot of issues installing drivers for both nvidia and ati
<leftyfb> more than usual
<leftyfb> at least from what I've seen
<lotuspsychje> 390 seems to be pretty stable doesnt it?
<lotuspsychje> i think bionics top issue on .1 will be gnome3 overall on my opinion
<lotuspsychje> unless they release some good changes
<lotuspsychje> oh well, 1 week patience :p
<lotuspsychje> !17.10
<ubot5> Ubuntu 17.10 (Artful Aardvark) was the 27th release of Ubuntu. Download at http://releases.ubuntu.com/17.10/ - Release Info: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtfulAardvark/ReleaseNotes
<lotuspsychje> did you upgrade ducasse
<ducasse> yep, but got disk problems
<lotuspsychje> whats up
<lotuspsychje> zfs?
<ducasse> i suspect it's a btrfs thing
<lotuspsychje> didnt know you are playing with btrfs?
<lotuspsychje> hey evening pragmaticenigma
<ducasse> i'll look more at it tomorrow
<lotuspsychje> kk
<pragmaticenigma> 'alo
<lotuspsychje> pragmaticenigma: 1724 and rolling well
<EriC^^> hey all
<lotuspsychje> hey EriC^^
<EriC^^> hey lotuspsychje
<lotuspsychje> whats up EriC^^
<pragmaticenigma> ??
<EriC^^> not much
<lotuspsychje> whats that pragmaticenigma
<pragmaticenigma> confusion
<lotuspsychje> you seem to confuse alot pragmaticenigma :p
<lotuspsychje> only coffee or alcholo?
<lotuspsychje> oh dear
<lotuspsychje> we might need a new !qemu 2011
<pragmaticenigma> ??
<lotuspsychje> !qemu
<ubot5> qemu is an emulator you can use to run another operating system - see https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WindowsXPUnderQemuHowTo
<lotuspsychje> its dated pragmaticenigma
<pragmaticenigma> Because it references Windows XP?
<lotuspsychje> no, you can see last edited on the wiki's at bottom of page pragmaticenigma
<pragmaticenigma> I guess I don't understand why it needs updating... qemu is still a hardware emulation provider
<pragmaticenigma> and there are newer more mainstream emulators that have been released since 2011 that are probably favored over qemu... since I'm not certain qemu isolates the guest OS away from the host OS
<pragmaticenigma> actually on that page lotuspsychje  is a note that it will not work under 10.04 (which was probably the last edit) and I would assume it still does not work on newer editions
<lotuspsychje> https://www.unixmen.com/how-to-install-and-configure-qemu-in-ubuntu/
<lotuspsychje> something like this
<pragmaticenigma> how did you even find this?
<lotuspsychje> my best friend google!
<pragmaticenigma> yeah, but that implies you went looking for it
<lotuspsychje> yes?
<pragmaticenigma> what inspired you to go looking for it
<lotuspsychje> i just dont like seeing old ubuntu versions on wiki's
<lotuspsychje> even if its still relevant
<lotuspsychje> i also help alot to improve the ubuntu factoids
<lotuspsychje> hence why i mentioned
<daftykins> +1
<daftykins> the wiki needs some serious work
<hggdh> indeed. For quite some time I worked on (mostly) the bug triage pages. Then... I lapsed...
<lotuspsychje> we all do what we can :p
<pragmaticenigma> Hey! It's TJ- !!!
<lotuspsychje> look what the cat throws in
<lotuspsychje> ready for .1 :p
<TJ-> G'evening :)
<TJ-> No, just here for LineageOS build failures!
<ducasse> \o TJ-
<daftykins> \o
<daftykins> welcome back :>
<lotuspsychje> whats happening with that build TJ-
<TJ-> lotuspsychje: what's happening is it... isn't! build failure for strange build tooling related reasons
<lotuspsychje> got some errors?
<leftyfb> TJ-'s back!
<TJ-> lotuspsychje: yeah, weird stuff like ninja timing out talking to jack-server. I'm currently trying adding JACK_EXTRA_CURL_OPTIONS="--max-time 7200"
<TJ-> I've upped Java VM heap to 6GB, reduced parallel instances to 1, changed the garbage collector
<lotuspsychje> https://forum.xda-developers.com/android/software/aosp-cm-los-how-to-fix-jack-server-t3575179
<TJ-> yeah, been through all that and more over the last 3 days
<lotuspsychje> TJ-: how about ssl certificate?
<lotuspsychje> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/android-building/8SQ0-4zZDo8
<TJ-> nothing like that. It's something to do with the memory overhead and/or compile jobs taking excessive time.
<lotuspsychje> hmm
<pragmaticenigma> joy asdf is back :-(
<lotuspsychje> JACK_VM_COMMAND=${JACK_VM_COMMAND:="java -Xmx4096m"}
<TJ-> hmm, this time jack-server failed to start! If the errors were consistent I might be able to track down the cause, grrr
<TJ-> lotuspsychje: I've done all that, you're going over what I've done over the last 3 days
<lotuspsychje> ok mate
<TJ-> I'm giving it 6GB heap, was already giving it 4GB
<TJ-> ahhh, this time the JDK reported insufficient memory to allocate 4GB, which makes sense since I set the minimum heap with -Xms4G
<lotuspsychje> TJ-: did you go over this one https://source.android.com/setup/build/jack
<TJ-> yeah, I've trawled everything relevant, including the source code but Android build system is one heck of a mess and that's being extremely polite!
<lotuspsychje> lol
<TJ-> At least it fails fast now - originally it was running for 6+ hours before failing
<lotuspsychje> :p
<lotuspsychje> cu another timezone guys
<TJ-> The command bring run when it fails is from an auto-generated shell script which is 60,000 (yes, sixty thousand!) lines long and is made up of lots of sub-shells linked by && as in (do this) && (do this) && (do this) ...
<daftykins> sounds like a delight to debug ;)
<TJ-> daftykins: you're the master of understatement tonight!
<daftykins> TJ-: :D
<daftykins> TJ-: i have sad news, i gave back my painting milk crate
<TJ-> I'm so glad Google were fined 4.3bm euros today; they deserve it for this build system alone
<TJ-> daftykins: your what?!
<daftykins> the milk crate i stood on to paint up on the scaffold :)
<TJ-> Oh! wow, that was highly technical :)
<TJ-> I thought you used a pogo stick :D
<pragmaticenigma> TJ-: I love how Google is claiming their going to have to start charging for Android now... They already do!!!! ASOP is free and without the google stuff. Google charges for certification of Android deveices to be blessed with the Google Apps
<daftykins> TJ-: hehe only on weekends
<TJ-> right, Google is the new Microsoft
<pragmaticenigma> Effectively a lisense and development fee for the privilege of providing a support version of Android to end users.
#ubuntu-discuss 2018-07-19
<lotuspsychje> good morning to all
<lordievader> Good morning
<ducasse> good morning
<lotuspsychje> hey lordievader ducasse
<lordievader> Hey lotuspsychje ducasse
<lordievader> How are you guys?
<lotuspsychje> all good here lordievader
<lotuspsychje> hows your side lordievader
<lordievader> Pretty good
<lotuspsychje> sun shines, holiday..what we need more :p
<ducasse> hi lordievader
<EriC^> what's this circus act going on in #u ?
<lotuspsychje> a lot a nuts these days
<oerheks> :-)
<tomreyn> EriC^^: if you just scroll up in #ubuntu
<EriC^^> ?
<lotuspsychje> where are they keep comming from..dont they have a life
<lotuspsychje> EriC^^: tomreyn already called the ops, hence why
<EriC^^> oh
<EriC^^> yeah i saw that, i just wanted their attention more, also gave them a msg in #u-ops
<EriC^^> somebody could easily be curious and try that command to see what it does
<lotuspsychje> bad commands are a danger indeed
<lotuspsychje> !danger
<ubot5> DO NOT RUN THAT COMMAND! That particular command is DANGEROUS and shouldn't be uttered here. REST OF YOU: DANGER, WILL ROBINSON, DANGER! Do not use the command or utter it here thank you!
<EriC^^> ah nice
<EriC^^> will robinson, what is that out of?
<lotuspsychje> hmm not sure
<EriC^^> (potential movie i can see :D )
<lotuspsychje> lol
<lotuspsychje> he's klined
<blackflow> trolls so early in teh morning, wth
<lotuspsychje> hehe morning blackflow
<blackflow> EriC^^: Lost in Space
<blackflow> lotuspsychje: morning, morning :)
<EriC^^> thanks blackflow
<lotuspsychje> ttyl guys, salade nicoise a la lotus
<BluesKaj> Howdy folks
<tomreyn> hi
<lotuspsychje> !torrent
<ubot5> Some torrent clients: Transmission (GTK and terminal-based), Deluge-Torrent, Freeloader, BitStormLite, BitTornado-GUI (GTK), KTorrent (KDE), QTorrent (Qt), Azureus/Vuse (Java), !Frostwire (Java), TorrentFlux (web-based), bittornado, rTorrent, cTorrent, bittorrent, aria2 (terminal-based) - FAQ: http://www.bittorrent.com/help/faq - See also !P2P
<oerheks> yes lotuspsychje, it is happy hour
<lotuspsychje> :p
<oerheks> making up problems
<lotuspsychje> we need more trolls
<lotuspsychje> hey BluesKaj
<BluesKaj> hi lotuspsychje
<lotuspsychje> there you have another one oerheks thomas
<blackflow> two trolls at once! wth is today, not even friday.
<lotuspsychje> probable a split personality
<lotuspsychje> 2 clients from same machine lol
<oerheks> but he is running kali .. silly thomas
<lotuspsychje> can you ban users in #ubuntu leftyfb
<leftyfb> wish I could
<leftyfb> oerheks: we know, but he won't admit it
<BluesKaj> thought it was lubuntu
<lotuspsychje> that wtf guy is busy from this morning
<lotuspsychje> and thomas mysteriously joined every same time with him
<oerheks> next will be our hans__ ..
<oerheks> :-D
<lotuspsychje> lol
<BluesKaj> noticed hans was around yesterday ..was he still trolling?
<oerheks> running debian on his vps, or lying in debian too
<lotuspsychje> even if one is lonely..i dont get why inventing up a fake story is fun?
<lotuspsychje> what gain does this have lol
<oerheks> Hi, i am lisa, 81, curly hair, and freggles
<lotuspsychje> lol
<BluesKaj> some use vpn or vps to change their banned IPs
<leftyfb> I like the whole squatting nicks excuse
<leftyfb> especially on freenode with nickserv
<BluesKaj> yeah, that squatting nick thing is new to me
<BluesKaj> altho I did have my registered nick stolen here on freenode for 2hrs, \about 5yrs ago
<blackflow> "rm -rf --no-preserve..... "     oh, sorry, my cat leaned on the keyboard and pffft! what do you know! against those exact keys in that exact order. some cat!
<blackflow> nickserv can require you to authenticate within X secodns or you're automatically renamed. with some proper sasl auth set up, it can be defined for low timeouts so they can't own your nick for more than a few seconds
<blackflow> hmmm.... I must've remembered it wrong, there doesn't seem to be a way to alter the number of seconds. it's preset to 30 it seems.
<BluesKaj> blackflow, I had been logged into freenode for more than 3 hrs when this happened
<blackflow> BluesKaj: so, they knew the password?
<BluesKaj> he was able to send a DOS attack to my IP after the ops banned him ..we had no internet access for 20 mins until i called my ISP and they walked me thru some changes, especially in wife's windows fw
<blackflow> BluesKaj: but what I mean is, if you logoff and I use /nick BluesKaj  , if you have auth enforcement on, I have to auth within 30 seconds or nickserv will rename me
<BluesKaj> blackflow, yeah , he must have targeted me from a previous freenode session and waited til Ilogged in ...wasn't using sasl at the time
<BluesKaj> my ISP tech said his IP was in russia somewhere
<BluesKaj> who knows where he really was
<blackflow> it's clearly russians. Just ask the FBI :)
<BluesKaj> to this day I still don't know why , i don't recall having any disagreements with anyone on freenode the previous day or even a week proor to the event
<BluesKaj> hehe, it's all russia's fault
<blackflow> (FBI, Hitlery, and the whole "Russian Meddling" posse)
<blackflow> all jokes aside, doesn't mean it was targeted against you specifically. taking over accounts has fun and profit in it.
<BluesKaj> I'm staying away from CNN for a while ...I'm tired of the whole Trump thing and his obvious grab at becoming a benign dictator
<blackflow> BluesKaj: the part I love to mock is that they're so sure based on no forensic evidence, it's hilarious. IP addresses from russia so CLEARLY it's them ruskies!
<blackflow> somoene CLEARLY wants to stir up some serious intl sht going on..... but.... offtopic. bah politics.
<BluesKaj> blackflow, deny deny deny and perhaps the people will follow that old Nazi propaganda device.," tell a lie long enough and often enough and the people begin to believe it"
<BluesKaj> I see we have someone asking a racist question
<JimBuntu> Yeah, but they are using NFOrce Entertainment... a cloud hosting service, no doubt VPN or such
<JimBuntu> Well, that was fast
<blackflow> BluesKaj: I agree. The bigger the lie, easier to believe.
<BluesKaj> JimBuntu, yup, ip tracker  url shows the same info
<lotuspsychje> !info x11-dev
<ubot5> Package x11-dev does not exist in bionic
<lotuspsychje> tomreyn: think he trying a theme or so?
<tomreyn> lotuspsychje: maybe that, or inventing cold fusion, hard to tell.
<lotuspsychje> weirdos today lol
<lotuspsychje> writing a full sentence...so hard
<tomreyn> i think there's a language barrier involved. but still, machine translation would work better with full sentences.
<lotuspsychje> help? gtk?someone :p
<tomreyn> m2_teknix is not doing a lot better.
<lotuspsychje> lol
<blackflow> well, when you design a system idiots can use.... idiots will use it :)
<lotuspsychje> artful goes eol today
<tomreyn> oh, thanks for the heads up.
<lotuspsychje> https://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2018/07/ubuntu-17-10-end-of-life
<lotuspsychje> just out of the press :p
<blackflow> the ubuntu-announce and some other mailing lists are worth being subscribed to ;)
<lotuspsychje> or not use non-lts :p
<tomreyn> too much email ;)
<lotuspsychje> so now artful users suppose to come, and in one week the xenial users
<lotuspsychje> oerheks: did you mess with user agents or so?
<lotuspsychje> im talking in ##networking
<oerheks> no, nothing fancy
<lotuspsychje> kk
<TJ-> oerheks: can you save the page source so we can see what it is, or use the developer tools to inspect it?
<oerheks> i will, lets see hoto do that
<lotuspsychje> TJ-: fixxed jack yet?
<oerheks> https://www.dropbox.com/s/xe2cprbvh3nyfps/google-bad?dl=0
<TJ-> lotuspsychje: yeah, got home earlier to find a completed build, and just finished a test install on the device
<lotuspsychje> cool
<TJ-> apparently dropbox fails because it requires scripts from google
<TJ-> useless design!
<TJ-> lotuspsychje: now i'm trying to figure out how/why Google Play got installed (this is LineageOS) when I didn't add Gapps!
<oerheks> https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/VMryHR7fmb/
<TJ-> oerheks: can you just pastebin the source ? apparently dropbox requires google captcha
<TJ-> yay :P
<oerheks> i read ya
<lotuspsychje> TJ-: perhaps they added play store as default in the build?
<TJ-> lotuspsychje: no, it's proprietary. Somehow it's icon at least has slipped in with the google account setup I think... maybe it's only the icon. I best check which packages are in the image that might clue me in. I'm assuming the entire play store app is behind it
<TJ-> lotuspsychje: weird but the solution to the failing build was, add a swap file!
<lotuspsychje> TJ-: does lineage use another software centre?
<TJ-> lotuspsychje: it doesn't have one, that's the point. The user can install what they like. Many use OpenGapps, but there's also FDroid and Yalp (anonymous access to play store)
<lotuspsychje> ah
<TJ-> oerheks: I don't see anything but then again there's loads of Javascript there. I'd suggest using the dev tools inspector and point to that element and see what source code seems to be associated with it
<TJ-> oerheks: could that 'slider' be a progress bar related to the microphone input?
<oerheks> TJ-, tried that, but that switch is not catchable, so i guess it *is* malware
<TJ-> oerheks: also, it looks like it's been cropped and is slightly off the screen's left edge, is that correct?
<oerheks> there is no logical explain to this
<lotuspsychje> tough one
<TJ-> oerheks: did you try creating a new chrome user profile?
<oerheks> let me tell you something...
<TJ-> oerheks: disable all extensions?
<oerheks> it just disappeared
<lotuspsychje> how?
<TJ-> oerheks: :D
<oerheks> i have the pics and code to proove it..
<TJ-> oerheks: it must have seen me coming with the sledgehammer
<oerheks> dang.. who is after me?
<lotuspsychje> lol
<TJ-> oerheks: well at least it was switched off, whatever it was :p
<oerheks> time to do a fresh 18.04 install, i needed to upgrade anyway
<TJ-> it could have been an Ubuntu GUI element I suppose
<lotuspsychje> why would anything malicious create a GUI object lol
<oerheks> so unlogical, not extentions, not cache, not account
<TJ-> did it only occur on the chrome search/default home page?
<oerheks> on their homepage only, yes
<oerheks> and.. it is back
<lotuspsychje> lol
<oerheks> :-(
<TJ-> oerheks: that screenshot looks like the browser's built-in 'home' page rather than actually visiting the Google site, is that correct?
<oerheks> TJ-, yes
<oerheks> google.nl gives a blanc screen, normal
<TJ-> oerheks: right, so not possibly not loaded from a remote location. I was going to suggest using the Dev Tools to monitor the network connection requests to try to identify an unusual request URL
<oerheks> downloading a fresh iso on laptop now
<TJ-> oerheks: does it happen in a new ubuntu user account ?
<lotuspsychje> good idea
<oerheks> TJ-, yes
<oerheks> this is so unreal.. not sure if scanning for strange urls works on this vulnerable machine
<TJ-> oerheks: are you able to slide the slider? does any Alt text pop up if the pointer hovers over it?
<oerheks> no, i cannot even grab the item, make it blue
<oerheks> no popup/hoover info
<TJ-> oerheks: which Ubuntu variant (GUI) are you using? it looks like a GTK slider to me, rather than a browser one
<oerheks> normal gnome, 17.10, no special themes
<TJ-> have you enabled any accessibility features?
<oerheks> no, but the access. menu switch is enabled on top panel
<oerheks> and it was gone, for a minute or so...
<oerheks> :-(
<TJ-> I have a vague recollection of seeing something like that  happen a long time ago in some application. Does this still happen if the user logs off? if the PC is restarted?
<lotuspsychje> TJ-: chromium settings has also lookalike settings buttons like that
<oerheks> i rebooted too, yes
<TJ-> lotuspsychje: does it? I wonder if that's because it uses the native GUI toolkit
<oerheks> cleaned cache, so i get the welcome screen 'do you want to send stuff to google, and default browser'
<TJ-> oerheks: any extensions installed?
<oerheks> yes, ghostery and ublock, both removed, and cleaned again, no difference
<oerheks> cleaned by manually removing folders*
<lotuspsychje> https://imgur.com/a/AG6aDJ1
<lotuspsychje> looks bit like it no?
<lotuspsychje> left disabled, right enabled
<TJ-> yes
<oerheks> oke, i be back in an hour or so..
<TJ-> I think I have an idea about it, shame he's gone. I wonder if Google are testing some option for abiding by the EU commission findings of abusing their monopoly, to give people the option to switch browsers or whatever, and it is accidentally or deliberately leaking - oerheks is in Belgium isn't he?
<lotuspsychje> netherlands TJ-
<lotuspsychje> hey pragmaticenigma
<TJ-> ahhh
<pragmaticenigma> howdy
<daftykins> \o
<pragmaticenigma> perplexing question of the day... why would Ubuntu be seeking a domain with my local domain name appended to the end?
<pragmaticenigma> so example.com becomes example.com.localdomain.loc
<daftykins> pretty normal for consumer routers to have a local FQDN type format and for the automagic rubbish networking components in Loonixes to make use of it for self references and the like
<pragmaticenigma> This appears to be the computer doing the appending... not the router... dns is managed through pi-hole on a separate device, looking through it's logs is how I noticed
<TJ-> if the domain search is set then it'll add that suffix if DNS resolution of the raw name fails
<pragmaticenigma> I thought maybe it was some sort of attempt to identify proxy and/or typosquating servers
<pragmaticenigma> That's the strange part, I see both requests in DNS logs
<daftykins> right, both sides can show it up / make use
<daftykins> heard of others using pihole but it sounds a bit too much like a tinfoil hat user type move to me
<TJ-> e.g. you do http://myotherpc/somefile it'll try myotherpc and myotherpc.local.domain.search.name
<pragmaticenigma> I've never seen it do this before... that's why I curious
<lotuspsychje> hey kostkon
<TJ-> pragmaticenigma: try this: "nmcli | grep -A 5 'DNS configuration' "
<kostkon> hey lotus :)
 * daftykins never liked hostnames at home so stuck with IPs
<pragmaticenigma> It's showing the expected dns server ipaddress and my localdomain.loc
<pragmaticenigma> I wonder if OpenDNS failed overnight... which is what Pi-Hole forwards to
<pragmaticenigma> I use friendly names since it makes setting up my LibreElec easier to switch backend Database providers
<pragmaticenigma> If I pull down my main machine, I can change DNS in once place instead of running around to several devices and reconfiguring them
<lotuspsychje> beware of the trolls, we had many today :p
<pragmaticenigma> personally daftykins ... I'd rather have the devices all DHCP, and the DNS server automatically update the IP when the device connects to the network, isntead of everything statically set ip on the router
<daftykins> i don't set statically on the router at all, static leases suck
<pragmaticenigma> daftykins: so set static on the device when needed?
<pragmaticenigma> I suppose comcast could have had an outage in the middle of the night too... much more plausible
<daftykins> seems to me you leapt into the topic part way through :) what's not being normal?
<daftykins> i'm meant to be packing for a trip though right now so i can't really chat too much
<nacc> lol
<nacc> get away from your computer, daftykins !
<daftykins> D:
 * daftykins is zapped by his keyboard
<pragmaticenigma> daftykins: not normal? I check the logs every now and then. Last night I woke up in the middle of the night to see my Roku indicator light flashing. I unplugged the Roku and went back to bed. Checking the logs of my DNS server, I noticed a ton of requests between 1 AM and 4 AM local, from my main computer.
<pragmaticenigma> Last time I lost connectivity in the night, I saw a spike in requests, but never saw attempts to search the local domain
<daftykins> right so you reckon your cable service went down for a bit? never been near a roku
<leftyfb> nacc: I would just let "linux_user" go. They're not going to get the answer they want because what they want isn't reasonable
<nacc> leftyfb: agreed.
<nacc> leftyfb: i just wish they would admit they are being unreasonable :)
<leftyfb> people don't do that
<leftyfb> hence the definition :)
<nacc> i have had one case of that working in my life and it was so glorious
<pragmaticenigma> well the room got lively all the sudden
<lotuspsychje> lol
<pragmaticenigma> daftykins: yes, I believe the cable must have gone out for maintenance last night, or unscheduled outage. Comcast rarely sends a notice of overnight outages
<daftykins> yeah my lady friendis with them down in Houston
<nacc> tomreyn: letting the ops know?
<nacc> pretty sure they are a child
<tomreyn> are there any ops?
<nacc> tomreyn: use #ubuntu-ops
<lotuspsychje> wb oerheks
<oerheks> :-)
<lotuspsychje> the more users, the more tolls too
<oerheks> maybe i should sign up for ops
<lotuspsychje> yeah go for it oerheks
<tomreyn> nacc: i did so in the afternoon, pointing out that we need more active ops
<nacc> tomreyn: heh
<lotuspsychje> and in different timezones
<tomreyn> since then, too, response was not fast enough IMO.
<oerheks> nacc,  how would i apply ?
<nacc> oerheks: i have no idea :)
<nacc> oerheks: i'd ask in #ubuntu-ops i think
<tomreyn> read up o the irclogs.ubuntu.com of #ubuntu-ops
<tomreyn> it's discussed there
<tomreyn> https://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2018/07/19/%23ubuntu-ops.html
<oerheks> thank you
<lotuspsychje> leftyfb: you remember procedure?
<leftyfb> something something wiki
<oerheks> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/IrcTeam/OperatorRequirements
<leftyfb> I applied months ago but haven't got any official response
<leftyfb> but off the record I've been told "you will NEVER be an op"
<leftyfb> I'm not expecting a response :/
<lotuspsychje> ok tnx leftyfb
<tomreyn> lol @ "should i ask here for help or can someone come discord so i can send all pictures ?"
<nacc> they installed a webpanel via  third party repo that shippped its own apache
<nacc> and fubard their system
<daftykins> by all means, let us use as many chat protocols as possible
<nacc> lol
<nacc> all at once!
<daftykins> :D
<daftykins> "one moment please i am awaiting the ubuntu release version number sent via carrier pigeon"
<nacc> bionic birdpoop
<lotuspsychje> cosmic twitter
<nacc> lotuspsychje: nice one
<lotuspsychje> :p
<lotuspsychje> hows things at work nacc
<nacc> lotuspsychje: good! learning a ton
<lotuspsychje> you have vacation this year?
<nacc> yeah, DO has an unlimited policy, which is ... weird
<lotuspsychje> neat
<lotuspsychje> better then google's swimming pool :p
<lotuspsychje> swim @ home
<nacc> heh
<daftykins> O_O
<lotuspsychje> yess!!! we are saved
<lotuspsychje> Bashing-om is here to take us over
<daftykins> \o/
 * daftykins sounds the cuckoo for the shift change
<lotuspsychje> lol
<lotuspsychje> Bashing-om: 17500 users today and many trolls
<lotuspsychje> oops 1750
<Bashing-om> lotuspsychje: LOL .. Sometimes here I do wonder - other times I just do not know .
<lotuspsychje> Bashing-om: and today artful is eol
<lotuspsychje> some news for UWN :p
<Bashing-om> lotuspsychje: Yepper .. looking forward to what 19.04 brings . 18.10 has been no issues to report for me .
<Bashing-om> lotuspsychje: 17.10 reporting .. still debating on how/when to handle all the details .
<lotuspsychje> nite nite all
<Bashing-om> tomreyn: IRT FroMaster : I see Package linux-image-generic-hwe-16.04-edge >> 4.15.0.24.46: amd64 arm64 armhf i386 ppc64el s390x . Normal HWE still on 4.13.0.45.64 , No ?
<oerheks> he cannot be on 16.04.5 ..
 * oerheks scratches
<tomreyn> oerheks: i'm "on 16.04.5", too
<tomreyn> so the release file was pushed to proposed already, i guess
<tomreyn> i'm running 16.04 + proposed here
<oerheks> how odd, schedule gives an other date .. i am confused too, as many claimed they are on 16.04.5 too, so i assumed it was out
<tomreyn> i suspect it's only 'out' to posposed now, but got confused, too.
<oerheks> good luck with that 32 bit uefi thingy, xoxo
<oerheks> he already has https://github.com/lopaka/instructions/blob/master/ubuntu-16.04-install-asus-x205ta.md and the uefi manual with the 32 bit hack
<daftykins> just had an update for base-files here guys - and now lsb-release reports .5
<tomreyn> daftykins: do you have propsed?
<tomreyn> rmadison says xenial-updates got base-files 9.4ubuntu4.7
<tomreyn> for which the changelog states "Bump version number to 16.04.5 in preparation for the point release"
<daftykins> totally stock server
<tomreyn> so it's not a matter of proposed
<daftykins> Unpacking base-files (9.4ubuntu4.7) over (9.4ubuntu4.6) ...
<tomreyn> the changelog entry dates to Tue, 17 Jul 2018 12:20:12 +0200
<tomreyn> so, yes, a littl eprematurely, i guess
<tomreyn> i think those are normally held back until the release day, or close to it
<oerheks> 17.10 went EOL today ..
<hggdh> oh tempora, oh mores
<daftykins> yip another one bit the dust
<oerheks> i don't believe fromaster..
<tomreyn> this was claimed before at least once, not sure if by him.
#ubuntu-discuss 2018-07-20
<lotuspsychje> good morning to all
<ducasse> good morning
<EriC^^> !find obs xenial
<ubot5> Found: libmono-system-reactive-observable-aliases0.0-cil, erlang-observer, fonts-lobster, fonts-lobstertwo, globs, golang-github-jacobsa-bazilfuse-dev, golang-github-jacobsa-fuse-dev, golang-github-jacobsa-gcloud-dev, golang-github-jacobsa-oglematchers-dev, golang-github-jacobsa-oglemock-dev (and 45 others) http://packages.ubuntu.com/search?keywords=obs&searchon=names&suite=xenial&section=all
<lotuspsychje> hey BluesKaj
<BluesKaj> Hi folks
<BluesKaj> hey lotuspsychje
<jink> 'sup, kids?
<lotuspsychje> yo jink
<jink> Ouwe Belg!  Toch mooi derde geworden.
<jink> Gefeliciteerd.
<lotuspsychje> lol
<lotuspsychje> tnx
<oerheks> does this make format C: /u/q  work? https://news.softpedia.com/news/microsoft-s-powershell-available-on-ubuntu-as-a-snap-here-s-how-to-install-it-522050.shtml
<lotuspsychje> good evening to all
<lotuspsychje> hggdh: alive mate?
<lotuspsychje> bloody trolls
<oerheks> lonely people, on saturday support
<oerheks> trolls help each other, despite real issues
 * lotuspsychje systematic ignoring
<oerheks> nooooooooooooooo.... dont ignore me
<lotuspsychje> lol not you
<oerheks> oh
<oerheks> i am not with the happy few?
<lotuspsychje> lucky no
<lotuspsychje> the other side :p
<lotuspsychje> the twilight zone of discuss
<oerheks> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zENtEumtyBI
<lotuspsychje> lets c
 * oerheks banging walls & heads
<lotuspsychje> :p
<oerheks> Drabber sleeps before the woofer
<lotuspsychje> its 21h37
<lotuspsychje> sshhhh the neighbours
<oerheks> WHAT??
<lotuspsychje> lol shhh
<lotuspsychje> crazy oerheks is doing it again behind the walls
<ducasse> luna just got in a fight
<lotuspsychje> ouch
<ducasse> there's a black and white cat at a nearby farm that sometimes shows up in my backyard, luna hates it
<lotuspsychje> oO
<lotuspsychje> territory
<ducasse> luckily no injuries
<lotuspsychje> yeah that happens easy on cat fights
<oerheks> maybe he got lucky
<oerheks> half moon
<lotuspsychje> how much life has she left ducasse ?
<ducasse> dunno, i don't watch her when she's out - let's hope many :)
<lotuspsychje> :p
<ducasse> how was your day, lotuspsychje + oerheks?
<lotuspsychje> great, pancakes at beach
<lotuspsychje> customer fixxed w10 this morning
<ducasse> mmmm, pancakes!
<lotuspsychje> beach was crowded
<lotuspsychje> and it was kinda rainy
<ducasse> no such luck here, just hot
<lotuspsychje> :p
<lotuspsychje> had a good friend meeting today ducasse
<ducasse> yup :)
<ducasse> now soon time for late dinner
<lotuspsychje> bon apetit
<ducasse> thanks
<oerheks> terrible .. parts are expensive
<oerheks> :-D
<lotuspsychje> markplaats :p
<ducasse> oerheks: for the bike?
<oerheks> jups
<oerheks> i am collecting all parts before i start, make sure that i don't have to go back for one silly bolt or nipple
<oerheks> exiting :-D
<oerheks> c - exciting
<oerheks> so i guess next friday i will have it all together, for one long build-movie
<lotuspsychje> then gangsta style bike riding tru haarlem :p
<oerheks> yay, with Drabber
<ducasse> we'll be watching :)
<oerheks> he is my personal bike-alarm
<oerheks> and he found out how to jump out of the box, to follow me into a store
<oerheks> so i have to put him on a leach :-(
<oerheks> "ohhh cute dog" .. drabber, they say you are cute, hahahahhahah
<lotuspsychje> nite nite, enough for me :p
<lotuspsychje> troll nite :p
<pragmaticenigma> So not right lotuspsychje
<lotuspsychje> !mint | Vivit
<ubot5> Vivit: The Ubuntu channels can only provide support for Ubuntu and its official flavors, since other distributions and derivatives have repository and software changes. So please use their dedicated support venues, for example: Linux Mint (#linuxmint-help on irc.spotchat.org), Kali Linux (#kali-linux), and LXLE (#lxle)
<lotuspsychje> what pragmaticenigma ?
<pragmaticenigma> lotuspsychje: skipping out after an invitation
<lotuspsychje> im still here :p
<lotuspsychje> and got some good helper to back me lol
<lotuspsychje> nite nite
<Vivit> I understand this! All I'm asking is what, based on your experience with official Ubuntu flavors, you think the problem could possibly be. I've looked all over the place with no success. I'm not looking for a solution; I'm just looking for some possible leads!
<nacc> Vivit: look in th enetwork manager logs
<nacc> Vivit: look in syslog, dmesg
<nacc> Vivit: none of this is ubuntu specific, just general debugging, which you can just google about
<nacc> Vivit: understand, your question was not any different (even if it feels like it is) to "I'm running SLES, and NM stopped working, what do I do?" There is a line in the sand on what is and what is not "Ubuntu"
<Vivit> Hmm it looks line apparmor is denying dhclient from reading something...
<Bashing-om> !info linux-image-generic
<ubot5> linux-image-generic (source: linux-meta): Generic Linux kernel image. In component main, is optional. Version 4.15.0.29.31 (bionic), package size 2 kB, installed size 14 kB
<Bashing-om> :)
#ubuntu-discuss 2018-07-21
<guiverc> thanks oerheks Bashing-om
<Bashing-om> guiverc: Huh .. thanks just for hand holding ? Ain't done nothing yet :P
<guiverc> nah, you have...
<lotuspsychje> good morning to all
<oerheks> go to sleep, lotuspsychje
<lotuspsychje> lol
<lotuspsychje> mosquito..
<oerheks> seeguls crying
<lotuspsychje> big bionic update :p
<oerheks> moskito you can kill
<oerheks> oh kernel
<oerheks> boinq
<Bashing-om> oerheks: I read on launchpad that the -29 kernel should fix the -24 issues :)
<lotuspsychje> aha
<hggdh> lotuspsychje: you pinged me earlier
<hggdh> and good morning to you
<lotuspsychje> hey morning hggdh
<lotuspsychje> its fixxed, was for artful topic wipe
<lotuspsychje> hence its eol :p
<hggdh> ah, OK
<hggdh> good
<hggdh> and we are fixing to look at the factoids suggestions we received
<hggdh> Real Soon Now(tM)
<lotuspsychje> ah i didnt send some
<lotuspsychje> curious :p
<hggdh> you did not, but others here did
<hggdh> :-)
<lotuspsychje> nice one
<lotuspsychje> here we go again oerheks :pp
<lotuspsychje> maybe he installed that hijacked mint dvd lol
<lotuspsychje> im pretty sure he's on mint, using ubuntu as excuse
<hggdh> OTOH, it is so stupid an error that it may be real
<lotuspsychje> never seen someone execute the install icon lol
<hggdh> yes, this is why I think it may not be a troll. But... borderline
<lotuspsychje> yeah could be he's real
<oerheks> no, there are no simular issues, he is drunk, or bored
<lotuspsychje> lol
<oerheks> guys he is going to reboot
<oerheks> say "ay"
<hggdh> aie
<hggdh> aye
<lotuspsychje> hehe
<hggdh> well... I will do the smart thing, and go to bed :-)
<lotuspsychje> sleep tight hggdh
<hggdh> night night
<lotuspsychje> cu next round
<hggdh> certainly :-)
<lotuspsychje> im gonna reboot aswell..
<lotuspsychje> for kernels :p
<lotuspsychje> say ay oerheks
<lotuspsychje> Linux R00TBOOK 4.15.0-29-generic #31-Ubuntu SMP Tue Jul 17 15:39:52 UTC 2018 x86_64 x86_64 x86_64 GNU/Linux
<lotuspsychje> tnx for headsup Bashing-om
<lotuspsychje> we will spread the word
<Bashing-om> lotuspsychje: mutual support :P
<hggdh> is the ehlp situation controlled?
<hggdh> (I was going finally to bed...)
<hggdh> yeah, it is. night night for real now
<oerheks> yes, they moved
<oerheks> nn hggdh
<lotuspsychje> fleemarket bbl :p
<oerheks> fresh flees, for all
<oerheks> ..cheese?
<ducasse> good morning, oerheks
<ducasse> and everyone else
<tomreyn> there is a new cpuburn alternative: http://i.imgur.com/BtUiSt3.png
<blackflow> my god it's full of sta^H^H^H^H CPUs!
<oerheks> wow, is there a snap available?
<oerheks> :-P
<oerheks> so, you slept 10,5 hrs after checking email ?
<tomreyn> :))
<tomreyn> there's indeed a snap, but i don't dare to run it, since it might make things backward incompatible.
<tomreyn> plus i dont know who "ken-vandine" (publisher) is
<lotuspsychje> good evening to all
<tomreyn> hello there
<lotuspsychje> hey there tomreyn
<lotuspsychje> whats his original question tomreyn
<tomreyn> lotuspsychje: none so far
<lotuspsychje> lol
<blackflow> huh.... SSD firmware updates. I had no idea but I guess it makes sense. ogawd, yet another thing to worry about updating.................
<lotuspsychje> blackflow: aka the samsung 840 evo has bad performance bugs==needs firmware
<oerheks> for that 840 yes
<lotuspsychje> blackflow: the pro's are mostly good to go
<lotuspsychje> but check anyway on samsungs site
<blackflow> lotuspsychje: yeah but I see on samsung's site there are fw updates even for 850
<lotuspsychje> evo or pro blackflow ?
<blackflow> BOTH
<blackflow> sorry, caps lock
<lotuspsychje> oh tnx for feedback blackflow
<lotuspsychje> must have been added
<lotuspsychje> well, if there are firmwares available: do them :p
<lotuspsychje> just keep in mind there 'can' be datalost resulting to reformat
<blackflow> yyyyyyyyyeah, not sure about that. if it ain't broken and all that, and so far I don't see anything broken.
<tomreyn> i think this is only for old drives, newer ones were seold with newer firmware already. smartctl / hdparm would tell which firmware is running
<lotuspsychje> depending on what the firmware holds of course
<blackflow> reason I'm also not keen on doing BIOS updates either. got burnt in the past.
<blackflow> tomreyn: indeed, good idea
<lotuspsychje> blackflow: but lets say we have a 850 pro, samsung gives out 10y warranty, if you dont do the firmware they could say its not under warranty perhaps
<blackflow> I'm sure I'll be getting new drives one way or another in half that time :)
<blackflow> I renew my computing infrastructure every 5 or so years
<lotuspsychje> thats why i work with the 850 pro 10y warranty i like
<blackflow> I'll probably hasten this cycle tho'. I'm currently on equipment from 2015, and I'm drooling for some ryzen2 goodness later this year or early next year.
<lotuspsychje> didnt get dataloss or breakage neither on them
<tomreyn> unfortunately samsung ssd's also dont do TRIM properly https://github.com/torvalds/linux/blob/e64f638483a21105c7ce330d543fa1f1c35b5bc7/drivers/ata/libata-core.c
<tomreyn> well not queued TRIM anyways. they just doint support it, but claim that they do.
<tomreyn> which is whys there's this blacklist in libata
<lotuspsychje> but xenial and up autotrims already right?
<tomreyn> yes, there are queued trim and another method. queued would be better if it worked, but the other method (i forgot the name) still works.
<lotuspsychje> aha
<tomreyn> its just bad for hardware / firmware to claim they support features and when you try to use them they fall flat on their face.
<lotuspsychje> tru that
<tomreyn> and others, microns, i think, or some of them, actually do queued trim fine
<lotuspsychje> ill have a look later on the new firmwares
<sonicwind> I gotta read this discussion later... I'm actually in the market for an SSD and am considering both Micron/Crucial and Samsung
<lotuspsychje> im fan of the 850 pro's :p
<lotuspsychje> but what tomreyn stated is true
<sonicwind> I have an 840 in this used laptop I just got and can't say i'm terribly impressed with it, although i think most of that is Ubuntu... haven't had time to work on that
<lotuspsychje> sonicwind: evo?
<sonicwind> yeah I think... not pro I don't think
<lotuspsychje> sonicwind: they i presume you didnt firmware it?
<lotuspsychje> *so
<sonicwind> mostly whatever all my friend did to it before he handed it over to me... he works in IT
<sonicwind> I know much of it is ubuntu, from having done systemd-blame analyze and such... it sits around for 10 seconds just looking for btrfs partitions
<lotuspsychje> you can check firmware the way tomreyn suggested above
<sonicwind> unfortunately my friend put encryption lvm and uefi on it even though I asked him not to lol...
<lotuspsychje> and btrfs isnt the most stable neither :p
<sonicwind> I'm eventually going to put plain ext4 and mbr on it, no encryption
<lotuspsychje> yeah try that sonicwind
<sonicwind> learning curve these past 2 1/2 years has been so crazy fast, I feel sometimes like I'm forgetting as much as I'm learning
<lotuspsychje> yeah recall stuff is harder when you grow older :p
<sonicwind> so, have enough to remember now without tackling uefi encryption and lvm
<sonicwind> yeah I just turned 49
<sonicwind> yesterday
<sonicwind> plus, seems like there are more problems on ubuntuforums with encryption and lvm than anything else
<tomreyn> "sudo hdparm -I /dev/sda | head" should tell the firmware
<sonicwind> Firmware Revision:  DXT0AB0Q
<sonicwind> samsung ssd 840 series
<sonicwind> I do have over 50 pages of notes from that 2 1/2 years though, that I'm constantly revising. It's been a great help. My own manual so to speak. Once I know I have certain stuff down, I can get rid of it.
<lotuspsychje> sonicwind: compare your firmware with the one on samsungs site(for your model)
<sonicwind> I'll eventually get an encryption, lvm and uefi section to it but not now... I have some basic uefi stuff in it already.
<sonicwind> I only see firmware for windows and mac users
<lotuspsychje> its non Os related, it just has to be loaded on an usb, then get to your ssd
<lotuspsychje> i think i did it with the site frop plop boot manager, to get it on stick
<lotuspsychje> from
<sonicwind> * Notice: ISO files may be used only via DOS using a bootable CD/DVD.
<lotuspsychje> yeah it means you need to boot your made usb, at F12 boot, then let do its job to firmware it
<lotuspsychje> this is before ubuntu loading right
<sonicwind> right, gotcha
<sonicwind> ISO DXT09B0Q ... yep, guess its oudated
<lotuspsychje> yeah this will be big performance fix
<sonicwind> think I'll just deal with it... another thing for me to mess up
<lotuspsychje> lolll
<lotuspsychje> if you succesfully burn to usb, nothing can go wrong
<lotuspsychje> not sure how i did it exactly anymore
<sonicwind> will make a note of it and wait for a day I feel ambitious
<lotuspsychje> sonicwind: https://www.plop.at/en/bootmanager/index.html
<lotuspsychje> with a tool from here
<sonicwind> truth be told, I got all the time in the world to wait for stuff to happen... just want it to work... low expectations.. I'd be happy with 5 minute boot time. I wake up , turn it on and go get breakfast.
<lotuspsychje> i dont lol, when i buy an ssd it has to be TURBO!
<sonicwind> as it is, my boot time on this laptop with the SSD now is about 46 seconds... at least 20 of that appears to be wasted, but haven't had time to work on it
<sonicwind> and 46 seconds isn't any faster than my other sytem with docked external HD I run Ubuntu off of
<lotuspsychje> your new purpose in life, 840 performance bug fix :p
<sonicwind> actually, the ext HD has booted as fast as 38 seconds or so
<lotuspsychje> neat
<sonicwind> seemed to get slower after the meltdown/spectre fixes
<lotuspsychje> yeah whole world is turning slower now :p
<sonicwind> since that started, I still haven't heard of any actual issues in the wild with them... that weren't from someone testing
<sonicwind> still amazes me how much you guys offer here... lotuspsychje, tomreyn, oerheks among others
<sonicwind> help
<lotuspsychje> we share & learn sonicwind
<lotuspsychje> togheter as a team we can do alot, co-operate
<lotuspsychje> we also learn from issues
<sonicwind> Do any of you also work with linux in your day job?
 * blackflow raises hand.
<lotuspsychje> im running an ubuntu business with barebone laptops and ssd's LTS
<sonicwind> nice
<sonicwind> usually running a business requires as much time as you spend here lol
<lotuspsychje> alot of volunteers are working in IT
<lotuspsychje> but others also have years ubuntu experience
<sonicwind> yeah
<lotuspsychje> we dont judge :p
<sonicwind> I started with 14.04 LTS late in the going... lots of change with ubuntu since then, just in that short time
<lotuspsychje> we are legion
<lotuspsychje> oops
<sonicwind> ok, caught up on that earlier discussion... I think maybe NCQ is the other type of TRIM tomreyn was referring to.
<tomreyn> sonicwind: yes i think so, thanks ;)
<lotuspsychje> man this zexaron can talk some branches oO
<tomreyn> :)
<tomreyn> there's a reason why i asked him to put the whole story on etherpad or pastebin
<lotuspsychje> yeah
<lotuspsychje> jeez he can turn around the corner lol
<tomreyn> he wouldnt do it, though, and i'm not willing to try to understand the way they present it on the chat
<tomreyn> !next
<tomreyn> lotuspsychje: they are just not in a very good mental state at this time, which makes it hard to work with them. i'm not sure you saw this: <Zexaron> Yeah trying to get what other people think, sorry I have a ... i'm not able to explain so good the events of past 2 weeks coherent, i've been to hospital in the middle, doing much better now but I'm not that energetic etc
<lotuspsychje> yeah
<lotuspsychje> pauljw: ignore is like an austrich stick head in the sand :p
<tomreyn> i think todays' #ubuntu chat can't get much worse, so things can only get better now.
<lotuspsychje> lol
<lotuspsychje> that promises for 26 tomreyn
<tomreyn> lotuspsychje: 26?
<lotuspsychje> .1 release
<tomreyn> oh right
<tomreyn> well, its mostly about the people and their behaviours and abilities (the latter is okay, but can be daunting, too)
<sonicwind> it looks like yates left, but he could have installed net-tools to get ifconfig back
<tomreyn> yes, but it semed like he should read the release notes first of all.
<sonicwind> :-)
<tomreyn> s/he/they/
<pauljw> no it's not, lotuspsychje.  it keeps my blood pressure under control and prevents me from telling exactly what i think of his whiney attitude.  he should just go back to Windows where he came from.
<lotuspsychje> lol
<lotuspsychje> ventilate agression to unaware trolls...hmm thats an idea pauljw :p
<lotuspsychje> i might finally get rid of my years built frustrations
<oerheks> welcome to weekend support .. gna gna
<lotuspsychje> haha
<ducasse> until we have a way to remotely whack them over the head with a rolled-up newspaper. /ignore is a good tool
<pauljw> life's too short to put up with the likes of some of these people.
<ducasse> s/./,/
<pauljw> :)
<lotuspsychje> and when your heads in the sand, you hearing the sound of your suffering volunteer friends
<lotuspsychje> helpppp
 * sonicwind can't wait to get whacked
<pauljw> if you're still helping the likes of that one, you're on your own.
<lotuspsychje> :p
<pauljw> besides, i didn't notice him looking for help.  just complaining about something he has paid nothing for, to people he's paying nothing to.
<ducasse> ...for project he's probably not contributing to
<ducasse> *for a
<lotuspsychje> yeah its not fair canonical gets payed and we dont :p
<lotuspsychje> where's my wonga's
<sonicwind> you guys should get something for it...
<sonicwind> stickers from the Canonical website or something haha
<sonicwind> :-)
<lotuspsychje> sonicwind: yes man! my bank number is 555-7867564-87
<ducasse> pizza!
<sonicwind> pizza
<ducasse> :)
<lotuspsychje> hmmm thats a new idea, ubuntu pizza's
<pauljw> :)
<lotuspsychje> with the round logo n all
<lotuspsychje> you found a new hole in the market ducasse
<ducasse> :)
<lotuspsychje> EriC^ uses his mycroft to bake pizza's and bring them to him
<sonicwind> cookie for tom
<sonicwind> lol
<lotuspsychje> we getting nice prices today :p
<tomreyn> much better than a cookie!
<lotuspsychje> welcome oliver_swift
<lotuspsychje> whats up on kdenlive oliver_swift ?
<lotuspsychje> welcome CaCO3
<oliver_swift> Just brought out an old camera to film a video and used kdenlive to edit, and I just wanted to hear if there were tips from anyone on using it? It'd be cool to start writing extensions for it but I don't know much about it. I heard it's written in python though!
<lotuspsychje> never used myself here
<oliver_swift> Or some portion in Python, I guess a video editor might be a bit slow if it were all in Python?
 * tomreyn neither
<EriC^> lotuspsychje: :D
<lotuspsychje> :p EriC^
<sonicwind> I use Avidemux for video editing lol
<lotuspsychje> nite nite all
<lotuspsychje> ttyl
<sonicwind> nite
<sonicwind> tom with the google-fu for another cookie :-)
<tomreyn> hope i can make it work, wireless can be tough
#ubuntu-discuss 2018-07-22
<tomreyn> doh, windows has something like a serial console, too, i never knew... https://serverfault.com/questions/554298/windows-serial-console
<lotuspsychje> good morning to all
<ducasse> good morning
<lotuspsychje> morning
<lotuspsychje> hey
<calcmandan> :/
<lotuspsychje> im also since on ubuntu
<lotuspsychje> !4.10
<ubot5> Ubuntu 4.10 (Warty Warthog) was the first release of Ubuntu. End Of Life: April 30, 2006. See !eol for more details.
<calcmandan> actually, it was 4.10
<calcmandan> i want from that to 5.04
<calcmandan> then skipped 6.10
<calcmandan> edgy i think it was.
<lotuspsychje> !7.04
<ubot5> Ubuntu 7.04 (Feisty Fawn) was the sixth release of Ubuntu. End Of Life: October 19th, 2008. See !eol and !upgrade for more details.
<calcmandan> i was never really a fan of gnome.
<calcmandan> i moved to 4.10 from being a redhat user.
<calcmandan> i was sick of the package manager.
<lotuspsychje> i did, when it was still lighter in use
<calcmandan> updating redhat was such a pain
<lotuspsychje> ive tested early redhat/mandrake?suse too
<calcmandan> i was a redhat user from rh3 .
<calcmandan> until i switched to kubuntu.
<kostkon> !4.04
<oerheks> blackflow, best thing is not to answer right away, let them wait, and see what happens :-D
<oerheks> if trolls do not get attention, they usually fix their issues within 2 minutes
<blackflow> heh
<blackflow> I don't buy that selinux story either.
<tomreyn> they installed their home server using the desktop installer image and did not know which ubuntu release is current, they are unable to get their sshd working. they wont have setup selinux (unless they found some ugly how-to). :-/
<oerheks> we wait, and still do not see
<blackflow> or is not a troll but wants to sound smart and assumes nobody would ask about selinux details :)  "Nobody in #ubuntu is probably using selinux so I can sound smart".
<oerheks> I got my fresh couch, and removed the leather from my old one, yes, even the back was pure leather, despite my brother/mom claiming the back is usual fake leather
<tomreyn> glad you brought it up!
<oerheks> :-D
<oerheks> SSL super strong leather
<tomreyn> so a tech topic after all
<blackflow> upgrade to TLS?   Total Leathery Strongness!
<tomreyn> although i guess leather crafting involves plenty of tech, too
<oerheks> i am going to use it for storing a collection of wood bites tools
<oerheks> hmm too much helpers does not work
 * oerheks facepalms
<tomreyn> thanks for pointing out the 16.04 vs 18.04 thing, oerheks
<sonicwind> good morning guys
<oerheks> hi sonic
<blackflow> y'all see this question? office under wine under ubuntu under vmware under windows.......
<daftykins> xD
<daftykins> that deserves a penguin slap
<blackflow> "16:05 < HaMsTeRs> if so, you should know that the format in libre is gay"   sigh... ignored.
<tomreyn> blackflow: do you know https://raptorcs.com/content/base/products.html ?
<blackflow> tomreyn: Talos, yup. I'm drooling for that.
<tomreyn> me, too, once it'll be stable / reliable / gen 2, and, moreover, more affordable.
<blackflow> beside $$, the only other problem with it I have is that Steam is essential to my sanity. I'd need a wintel machine, separate to my main workstation, for that.
<tomreyn> well, why not. if you can afford the talos, adding another off the shelf gaming computer is just pennies ;)
<blackflow> and servers... it's currently cheaper for us to rent than to colocate own hardware. otherwise I'd be all over those servers.
<tomreyn> there's also https://store.vikings.net/libre-friendly-hardware/the-server-1u
<tomreyn> actually i think the raptor-cs folks want to also offer hosting on this hardware.
<blackflow> tomreyn: it'll have to be in EU for us.
<tomreyn> okay, you give me the money, i do the hosting?
<tomreyn> ;-)
<blackflow> tomreyn: sure, send over your technical GDPR compliance docs, and we'll take it under consideration ;)
<tomreyn> :) well, i'd first of all need to setup a DC
<tomreyn> then hire someone for all the boring stuff, office + paperwork incl. compliance stuff, and then do the fun hosting stuff.
<tomreyn> so... lets talk in 3 years? ;)
<blackflow> =)
<tomreyn> i think we discussed ipv4 depletion a while ago https://ipv6.he.net/v4ex/sidebar/
<BluesKaj> Hey folks
<tomreyn> looks like yesterdays' "ntd" found their way to #ubuntu-hardened as "lol768"
<oerheks> tomreyn has eagle eyes, run mice, run
<oerheks> :-D
<oerheks> next step is recognize them without ip adresses
<tomreyn> well, no need for hostnames or ip address, i can recognize 'angry person boasting about intolerable lack of instant security support in my free OS' easily
<blackflow> any ops in the house?
<oerheks> in #ubuntu-ops, or directly #freenode, they monitor us too
<hggdh> blackflow: what do you need?
<blackflow> hggdh: the user is gone now, but for the reference, and this was posted earlier in #ubuntu:  https://pasteboard.co/HvGIbnH.png
<blackflow> this "toured" user apparently harassing Dbugger in private
<hggdh> this is a PM session?
<blackflow> hggdh: from what I understand, yes.
<hggdh> k
<hggdh> yeah, found it, around 2100 UTC
<blackflow> yah
<hggdh> the best we can do: (1) report it at #ubuntu-ops; (2) /ignore the user (syntax may be a bit different depending on what IRC client you use; for me -- weechat -- it is /ignore add <nick>)
<blackflow> hggdh: yeah I suggested to Dbugger to set +g on their nick
<blackflow> hggdh: another customer requires your attention in #ubuntu :))
#ubuntu-discuss 2019-07-15
<Mr_Cyclops> Hello. Is it possible to have Google Photos on Ubuntu? I mean, run an application or webserver, add the folder that has all the pics, and get the view with face taggin etc. like it works on google photos? thank you
<pragmaticenigma> Mr_Cyclops: What you described, already exists as Google Photos. Google has not released any applications for any computer to interface with that web application. As far as homebrew, start searching the web. That is all relatively new territory and I haven't heard of any projects for home users that are ready for prime time
<Mr_Cyclops> pragmaticenigma, :) It restricts the usage to 15GB, my collection is in TB ...
<Mr_Cyclops> when I mean restricts, I mean, 15GB is free ... :)
<Mr_Cyclops> which you know of course
<Mr_Cyclops> :d
<pragmaticenigma> Mr_Cyclops: that sounds like a you problem... they have paid platforms for more storage
<Mr_Cyclops> pragmaticenigma, yup, I can't afford it :)
<Mr_Cyclops> but thanks anyway ... appreciate it
<pragmaticenigma> Mr_Cyclops: If you can't afford a paid platform, then I would say that you probably can't afford all your photos to be corrupted because of a configuration mistake either
<lotuspsychje> good morning to all
<lordievader> Good morning
<Sveta> !indonesia
<ubot5> join ke #ubuntu-id untuk membahas ubuntu dalam bahasa Indonesia
<marcoagpinto> Heya!
<marcoagpinto> >:)
<akem-hp> Hey.
<akem-hp> Got myself a new 4TB external drive for backup, time for file copying - long time ;)
<lotuspsychje> wich brand
<akem-hp> Seagate, it was relativly cheap, 90 euros for 4 TB.
<lotuspsychje> sweet deal
<lotuspsychje> im also a seagate fan
<tomreyn> that'll be shingled, i guess
<akem-hp> I don't which one bought the other, but some drives are double branded Seagate/Maxtor nowdays.
<akem-hp> But this one is clearly labeled Seagate everywhere on the packaging and on the drive.
<TJ-> akem-hp: check which type the drive is before writing anything to it - if it is a Seagate "Archive" drive it uses Shingled Magnetic Recording (SMR) and there are two versions of those - drive-managed and host-managed. Later devices are host-managed and so you may need to ensure operating system support for it
<akem-hp> TJ? i already started copying to it, i mounted it, it was formated already, not sure what type it is but it looks like its copying fine atm, TJ how can i tell the type of drive?
<akem-hp> At about 100 MB/s: Copying 2.36 TiB   4% |##                                                       | 106.28 MB/s ETA:  6:28:11
<lordievader> lotuspsychje: Seagate is still leading in drive failures in backblaze's hard drive failures report: https://www.backblaze.com/blog/backblaze-hard-drive-stats-q1-2019/
<lordievader> akem-hp: `smartctl -a /dev/sdX` typically tells you the make and model.
<lordievader> Unless behind a raid controller or something.
<TJ-> akem-hp: "grep . /sys/block/sd?/device/model"
<TJ-> akem-hp: SMR drives use overlapping tracks grouped into zones. When a write is done to a track the drive has to re-write every track in the zone
<TJ-> akem-hp: to prevent problems with very low write throughput and other issues the drive (or the Host OS) needs to be aware of the zones and their size and handle them correctly
<akem-hp> https://pastebin.com/5iRf3Vd7
<TJ-> akem-hp: arghh, behind a USB bridge
<akem-hp> It's plugged on my USB hub.
<TJ-> akem-hp: I'd strongly recommend you determine the exact model ID and firmware version from the device's sticker in that case
<akem-hp> I can stop the copying and plug it directly to the computer.
<TJ-> akem-hp: from those you can search for the seagate specs that'll tell you if it is SMR, and if so whether it is drive- or host-managed
<TJ-> akem-hp: if the device is host-managed you'll need to use the dm-zoned device-mapper layer. See https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux.git/tree/Documentation/device-mapper/dm-zoned.txt?id=3a564bb3a8a6950e18b1f5d209bda39fc3831074
<marcoagpinto> ahhh.. I too bought a WD 4 TB HDD months ago to convert all my DVD films to .iso
<marcoagpinto> :)
<marcoagpinto> but for months that I don't do it
<tomreyn> TJ-: this is the first time i hear you need dm-zoned for SMR. is this documented anywhere in ubuntuland, to your knowledge?
<tomreyn> host-managed SMR, that is.
<tomreyn> there's also https://lwn.net/Articles/720226/
<tomreyn> mkfs.ext4 on 18.04 does mention two *lazy* options.
<akem-hp> TJ-, Well i plugged it directly to the computer, i got the smae outputs for both commands - this is dmesg https://pastebin.com/C6gZSVX4, and on the papers or stickers there is nothing like that, just serial numbers but i cannot get info with them online, it's just written Expansion, not archive...But this is for backup, it won't be plugged very often.
<TJ-> tomreyn: it's mainly an Enterprise issue for read-mostly SANs so there's not much info for consumers
<TJ-> akem-hp: does the drive have a native USB3 interface then?
<tomreyn> enterprises using SMR disks?
<akem-hp> TJ-, yes.
<akem-hp> Hopefully, i wouldn't get lower than 3.0 for large data copying like that, it would be too slow.
<TJ-> akem-hp: looks like the STEF4000400 (Expansion+ 4TB)
<tomreyn> akem-hp: does hdparm -i return anything more useful?
<TJ-> tomreyn: yes, for read-mostly online storage (that's why they're called "archive" drives)
<tomreyn> i imagine it'd make sense for aws glacier or the like
<akem-hp> tomreyn, No: SG_IO: bad/missing sense data, sb[]:  70 00 05 00 00 00 00 0a 00 00 00 00 24 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 HDIO_GET_IDENTITY failed: Invalid argument
<tomreyn> akem-hp: how about   hdparm -I   (upper case)
<tomreyn> oh you need sudo for both
<akem-hp> Yes i used sudo, there is more infos there with -I.
<tomreyn> but you wont share it? :)
<akem-hp> But i don't see anything related to SMR or something, wait i'm pasting it. :)
<akem-hp> https://pastebin.com/HTGUX8yH
<tomreyn> from what i read online, those drives marketed as Seagate Expansion Desktop can be all kinds of models
<TJ-> akem-hp: you  might be OK, it looks like there are too model-streams "Expansion" and "Backup". 'Backup' are definitely SMR but cannot find any specs for the "Expansion" stream
<akem-hp> TJ-, I see, it's good to know about it, i didn't know about SMR at all, i'll pay attention to this when buying harddrives from now on.
<TJ-> hmm, that hdparm output is hilarious: "Nominal Media Rotation Rate: 29295"
<tomreyn> thanks for sharing, akem-hp. the drive identification looks like garbage to me.
<TJ-> the only info (which doesn't make it clear) is here, but it calls the 4TB "Expansion+" https://www.seagate.com/gb/en/consumer/backup/expansion-portable/#specs
<akem-hp> tomreyn, Yes, it's just exactly like that in the terminal too. :/
<TJ-> tomreyn: akem-hp  garbage for sure, due to the USB bridge :) I hate how the drive makers are hiding the devices behind the USB translation
<tomreyn> TJ-: seems to depend on the page language, german shows both the Expansion+ STEF4000400 and Expansion STEA4000400   4 TB models
<akem-hp> TJ-, the last one 4TB on the link you posted is Expansion without "+" it's the same i think.
<akem-hp> Yes i'm looking at the french version...
<tomreyn> the UK page variant only knows about the + one
<tomreyn> and the pdf file names even have 'emea' and the country code in them
<tomreyn> geez
<TJ-> apparently the only difference between "Expansion" and "Expansion+" is the latter is shipped with some Seagate drive management software
<BluesKaj> Hi folks
<marcoagpinto> BluesKaj!!!! Hello!!!!
<marcoagpinto> >:)
<akem-hp> Hey.
<BluesKaj> hi marcoagpinto
<marcoagpinto> I am drinking some cola
<marcoagpinto> :)
<BluesKaj> welk, it's your pancreas...
<tomreyn> BluesKaj!!!! Hello!!!!
<tomreyn> I am drinking some tea
<BluesKaj> hey tomreyn
<tomreyn> just so you know!!!
<BluesKaj> hehe
<akem-hp> A bit offtopic but Termux is great on Android without need for root.
<TJ-> akem-hp: I'd presume as the drive is behind a USB bridge, if it is SMR, it has to be drive-managed, so the only effect you might see is a slow-down in sustained write throughput once it fills its internal cache RAM
<BluesKaj> the caffeine probly doesn't hurt your organs much, but all that sugar isn't good marcoagpinto
<akem-hp> TJ-, ok, i see, but i'll use it for very occasional writes as it is backup unit, actually i'm writing to it full speed.
<lordievader> akem-hp: Termux is lovely
<lordievader> Through a termux script I can download youtube videos by sharing the link from youtube with termux.
<akem-hp> lordievader, yep :) it has apt just like Ubuntu.
<akem-hp> Didn't know you could do things like that.
<lordievader> akem-hp: https://medium.com/@baradhiren07/download-youtube-videos-using-termux-2e72082d5173
<akem-hp> I tried to run my small ruby IRC bot on it, it worked just fine :P
<akem-hp> lordievader, nice.
<tomreyn> 3 days left for 18.10
<BluesKaj> good riddance...it was buggy in my experience, and some of the bugs still show up in the newer releases
<BluesKaj> one of them is a dev release, but the annoyances are still there
<tomreyn> blackflow: i like that you have an opinion and that you state it. i prefer you not calling 'BS' when others voice theirs (note how i did neither).
<blackflow> I call it as I see it. Feel free to call my opinion BS if you think it is.
<tomreyn> regarding 'generic', OP asked for "the recomended options", which i rephrased (translated?) as a "general recommendation".
<blackflow> (in particular for LVM snapshotting being a "traditional" route, what with all its bugs and performance issue, it's anything _but_ "the" traditional route)
<tomreyn> it's what's been supported for a long time, and what's been used for a long time.
<tomreyn> i'm not saying it's the technically greatest solution, it certainly isn't. i'm not saying there are no bugs there. but lvm snapshotting is tried and tested, the deficits are well understood. for people who prefer a somewhat conservative approach, it can be a good choice. and with data, I want conservative, and i think many others want it, too.
<tomreyn> i'm by no means saying your approach is wrong, i'm saying that it's probably not the solution which works for the average user.
<blackflow> They asked for recommended. I recommended based on tried and tested, personal experience, which I'm also dogfooding. If they don't want it or don't feel confident about ZFS, fine. It's still my recommendation. And not just mine.
<tomreyn> yes, but you didn't state so, so i listed other approaches.
<blackflow> but shooting it down just because you noobs can't use anything other than what ubiquity is pre-installing for you.... well.... hilarious.
<tomreyn> now you call me a noob, nice. are we getting personal now?
<tomreyn> maybe you should take a break and cool off a little.
<BluesKaj> I guess if one uses a conservative approach it's considered noob, by some more advanced users
<blackflow> You know what, you're right. I'm sick of this crap anyway.
<BluesKaj> angry young man attitude
<tomreyn> he certainly knows a lot more about zfs than some (or many) of us, definitely me - no doubt there. i'd just hope for a better environment for discussions, and one where we can point out multiple solutions to solving stated problems / tasks.
<RikMills> o_O
<lordcirth> tomreyn, was the snapshot discussion for a root partition?
<tomreyn> lordcirth: all we had to work with was: <JustJohnny> what are the recomended options to implement bare metal backup in CLI-only ubuntu server?
<lordcirth> Ah, that's not much.
<TJ-> I don't think "works for me" is a good basis for a recommendation, when considering https://github.com/zfsonlinux/zfs/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3A%22Type%3A+Defect%22
<TJ-> What with those and the recent performance issues due to the 5.x kernel changes affecting SIMD/FPU access as I understand it
<lordcirth> The performance issue is a concern. The others would not prevent me from running 0.7.x in prod. 0.8.x is another matter.
<lordcirth> Unfortunately there's still nothing that really competes with ZFS. Btrfs is ok for rootfs's, since ZFS on root is annoying to set up.
<TJ-> I think one other issue is always going to a concern. Learning-curve, experience, testing, before using it in anger
<lordcirth> Learning is certainly needed, yes. But that's true of everything, really.
<TJ-> ZFS hasn't grown support for zoned devices has it (ZAC/ZBC) ?
<TJ-> lordcirth: right... but someone familiar with general Linux admin is going to be better off with bacula/rsync type back-up solutions than block-device/file-system specific solutions, I think
<lordcirth> I don't think it supports zoned devices, no. Are they common? I've never had one.
<lordcirth> Yes, for the question as phrased I would have replied "BorgBackup"
<TJ-> host-managed SMRs are becoming quite common because they're cheap. we can use dm-zoned device-mapper to handle them with anything on top of course, so that could be used under ZFS as with other options like LVM, but then the purported advantage of ZFS foing everything is lost
<TJ-> err s/foing/doing/
<lordcirth> Well, the main advantages of ZFS are checksumming, redundancy / failure handling, and snapshots. If using dm-zoned underneath works well, I'd use it. But I suspect there'd be a performance hit in practice.
<TJ-> Less than not using it :)
<lordcirth> But then, if you are using SMR you have already traded away performance
<TJ-> SMR is fine when used with host-aware OS tooling (or device-aware)
<TJ-> the problem is when using a host-aware drive and no OS support
<lordcirth> TJ-, what performance do you get with proper OS support?
<TJ-> lordcirth: the zones are mapped so there's a metadata zone hidden from 'users' and then user zones for data, which prevents constant re-writing of entire zones just due to metadata changes
<lordcirth> And the metadata zone has different performance? Or is it just so that you can rewrite just that zone?
<TJ-> see https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux.git/tree/Documentation/device-mapper/dm-zoned.txt
<lordcirth> It's .rst now, apparently
<TJ-> well doh! teach me to delete the original commit ID from the URL for clarity!
<tomreyn> "dmzadm" is not an ideal choice for a name.
<TJ-> yeah, sounds like a networking tool
<tomreyn> there are too many acronyms in IT ;)
<TJ-> Maybe its for use on the 38th parallel (north/south korea border)
<TJ-> there's only two in IT, I and T :)
<tomreyn> :-)
<coffeecow> lotuspsychje,
<lotuspsychje> welcome coffeecow
<lotuspsychje> you can launch a poll or discussion about ubuntu here fi you like
<lotuspsychje> *if
<coffeecow> how do I launch a poll, and thanks lotuspsychje
<coffeecow> I was asking "Is there anyone here who prefers Seahorse over KeePassXC after trying them both?"
<lotuspsychje> im fan of using none myself coffeecow
<coffeecow> I keep hearing bad stuff abotu seahorse but I'm not sure if it really is any less secure. All I know is it integrates like a thousand times better than keepassxc does.
<coffeecow> Yeah but I like using different passwords for *everything*.
<coffeecow> My memory ain't that good.
<coffeecow> I don't need someone to be able to build a profile of me from like... a database leak a la haveibeenpwned.com
<lotuspsychje> coffeecow: leaked password from that sorts of sites, usualy come from owned websites
<lotuspsychje> coffeecow: the security part of ubuntu, is keeping your system up to date, and often change password, use complex passwords
<lotuspsychje> maybe other volunteers can point you do the pro & contra of seahorse and keepassx
<daftykins> KeePassXC is a service that lets you maintain a local database file, so there's no cloud involvement
<daftykins> been looking at that to move clients to, since they're so terrible with passwords + security
<lotuspsychje> https://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonevangelho/2019/07/12/ubuntu-executes-another-massive-change-to-the-way-it-updates-proprietary-nvidia-drivers/#1850b6597aa8
<TJ-> !info pass | coffeecow: gpg + pass + git
<ubot5> coffeecow: gpg + pass + git: pass (source: password-store): lightweight directory-based password manager. In component universe, is optional. Version 1.7.1-3 (bionic), package size 35 kB, installed size 149 kB
<jeremy31> Wait for it....
<OerHeks> 1.. 2 .. ?
<jeremy31> UWN
<Bashing-om> UWN587 is on the streets: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter/Issue587 :D
<OerHeks> yeah, good news for Zen 2 users https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=AMD-Releases-Linux-Zen2-Fix
<TJ-> OerHeks: thought you were on about my UK ISP, Zen!
<TJ-> phew! looks like we solved the apache2/openssl 1.1 DoS
<TJ-> Had my head deep inside libssl1.1/apache2 debugging with gdb most of the evening
<sarnold> TJ-: what was it?
<TJ-> SSL_error queues being mis-handled and the wrong errors causing 2 processes to spin at 100%
<TJ-> bug #1836329
<ubot5> bug 1836329 in apache2 (Ubuntu Bionic) "Regression running ssllabs.com/ssltest causes 2 apache process to eat up 100% cpu, easy DoS" [Critical,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1836329
<TJ-> looks like it needed two commits cherry-picking to solve it
<tomreyn> thanks for working this out.
<TJ-> I wasted 1/2 hour before I realised there are no -dbgsym packages for apache :s
<TJ-> well, not for the version in 18.04 anyhow; not sure why that is, I thought there was a debhelper that generated those automatically
<tomreyn> there seem to be a couple packages without ddebs
<daftykins> when does this situation arise, is it affecting anyone running apache on bionic?
<tomreyn> not sure why either.
<tomreyn> looks like #1836329 should be public security really
<TJ-> daftykins: almost any client could cause it
<TJ-> daftykins: it seems to be 2 scenarios we know of, 1) client protocol renegotiation and 2) client X509 certificates
<daftykins> hmm doesn't seem like a good situation
#ubuntu-discuss 2019-07-16
<daftykins> !info zulucrypt xenial
<ubot5> Package zulucrypt does not exist in xenial
<daftykins> !info zulucrypt bionic
<ubot5> Package zulucrypt does not exist in bionic
<daftykins> !info zulucrypt-gui bionic
<ubot5> zulucrypt-gui (source: zulucrypt): graphical front end for zulucrypt-cli. In component universe, is optional. Version 5.4.0-2build1 (bionic), package size 493 kB, installed size 1832 kB
<daftykins> !info zulucrypt-gui xenial
<ubot5> zulucrypt-gui (source: zulucrypt): graphical front end for zulucrypt-cli. In component universe, is optional. Version 4.7.7-3 (xenial), package size 324 kB, installed size 1040 kB
<daftykins> those look mighty different to me
<pauljw> yeah they do, perhaps i'll setup a new persistent live device of bionic and load zulucrypt on it.
<coffeecow> seahorse vs. keepassxc? just bringing up this again
<daftykins> the people aren't really going to change
<leftyfb> coffeecow: try them both and decide for yourself
<coffeecow> using gpg+pass+git sounds like a nightmare
<coffeecow> i have tried them both
<coffeecow> keepassxc doesn't integrate well with like anything
<daftykins> worked fine for me when i was testing it on kubuntu recently
<daftykins> just what are you after being integrated exactly? Firefox worked fine
<lotuspsychje> good morning to all
<lordievader> Good morning
<BluesKaj> Hi folks
<marcoagpinto> Heya!!!!!! The demon is here!
<marcoagpinto> guys?! I only slept from 8:30am to 12pm... I spent the night working on the projects... I have no life
<lordcirth> marcoagpinto, hi
<marcoagpinto> hey hey hey
<marcoagpinto> >:)
<lordcirth> Has anyone ever seen a link with MTU 2034?? I seem to have found one and I have no idea what's up
<pragmaticenigma> someone monkeying around in the settings that shouldn't have?
<pragmaticenigma> I thought max was 1500
<lordcirth> pragmaticenigma, default is 1500, 9000 is common, we try to run 9000 internally
<lordcirth> A lot of switches (Mellanox in particular) run 9036 or something like that, to allow MTU 9000 + tunnelling overhead.
<lordcirth> But 2034 is just bizarre.
<pragmaticenigma> lordcirth: Is that set on a commercial router or in someone's home configuration?
<lordcirth> pragmaticenigma, commercial. Troubleshooting at $WORK
<lordcirth> Also, tcp gets through but UDP doesn't, and I'm not aware of a firewall that would do this.
<pragmaticenigma> UDP doesn't go out... or UDP goes out but that NAT doesn't recognize the return?
<lordcirth> Shouldn't be any NAT involved. Not sure about how far it gets, still working on it
<lordcirth> I was just hoping that someone had seen that odd 2034 and remembered what did that.
<pragmaticenigma> doesn't ring any bells for me... just seems like a random value someone set
<TJ-> lordcirth: radius and 802.1x with jumbo frames?
<lordcirth> TJ-, no wifi involved either. thanks tho
<lordcirth> This *should* be entirely across 10Gbit tagged links between managed switches with MTU 9000+
<TJ-> is it all UDP or just some?
<TJ-> lordcirth: 802.1x (p-NAC) not 802.11 (wifi)
<lordcirth> oh, oops
<lordcirth> I am not aware of anything doing PNAC on our network
<lordcirth> However, the target systems all have one thing in common - they are VMware VMs, which we don't use often. And I had MTU problems with another VMware system a few months ago. So I'm pretty sure that's it.
<TJ-> lordcirth: the reason I mention it is if 802.1x is in use there are some circumstances where the EAP certificates are larger than a 1500 frame and need the DF bit set... 2034 could be set to allow larger EAP frames at some point.
<lordcirth> TJ-, good to know, thanks
<lotuspsychje> ssl updates incoming
<tomreyn> on apollo 13?
<lotuspsychje> lol
<lotuspsychje> no on r00tb0x
<lotuspsychje> https://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2019/07/new-ubuntu-snap-store-app
<lotuspsychje> !landscape
<ubot5> Landscape makes the management and monitoring of Ubuntu systems simple and effective by combining world-class support with easy to use online management tools. https://landscape.canonical.com/
<lotuspsychje> i should have used this teward :p
<teward> heh\
<teward> indeed.
<OerHeks> 802.11n is now Wi-Fi 4; 802.11ac, Wi-Fi 5; and the upcoming 802.11ax, Wi-Fi 6
<OerHeks> where -ax 4 times better performance than -ac
<tomreyn> are those generation numbers, or has the wifi alliance relabelled those?
<daftykins> it's a whole new naming scheme, mm
<daftykins> though it doesn't factor in multiple transmit/receive streams on each, so there's more than meets the eye as always
<OerHeks> yes, relabeling
<OerHeks> https://techerati.com/features-hub/opinions/wi-fi-6-vs-5g-what-is-right-for-your-organisation/
<OerHeks> mu-mimo
<OerHeks> ya have to know the slang
 * OerHeks got abducted by 2 chihuahua's for walk
<tomreyn> aaaw poor OerHeks
<tomreyn> should we send in the hero ninja turtles?
<tomreyn> i guess the new naming scheme is helpful for the average users. the non tech user can't tell apart ab/g ac n ax very well
<sonicwind> $200 for a cheap wifi 6 router - https://www.amazon.com/NETGEAR-Nighthawk-Next-Gen-Router-AX3000/dp/B07PCMG75T
<tomreyn> with Amazon Alexa Voice Controls
<tomreyn> Alexa: make me an internet.
<OerHeks> i am safe now
<daftykins> phew, the dogs are sated for another few hours
<OerHeks> How would a martini taste like, in California? http://quakes.globalincidentmap.com/
<Gallomimia> like cucumber and norri?
<OerHeks> ah yes, not stirred
#ubuntu-discuss 2019-07-17
<lotuspsychje> good morning to all
<Gallomimia> morning lotuspsychje. have you heard of neuralink? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-vbh3t7WVI
<lordievader> Good morning
<marcoagpinto> Heya
<luna_> Won Sophos Antivirus socks
<BluesKaj> Howdy folks
<luna_> yo
<lordievader> ð
<marcoagpinto> Hello BluesKaj and guys!
<marcoagpinto> :)
<marcoagpinto> It is me, the cola demon
<BluesKaj> hey marcoagpinto ...yes we know that already, also sugar freak :-)
<marcoagpinto> :)
<BluesKaj> your pancreas will pay for that abuse when you are older
<BluesKaj> like I am
<marcoagpinto> I am already old
<marcoagpinto> :)
<marcoagpinto> 45
<BluesKaj> I'm much older
<pragmaticenigma> BluesKaj is the ripe old age of 21
<pragmaticenigma> as am I
<BluesKaj> wish that was true, pragmaticenigma
<pragmaticenigma> well... I at least stopped counting at 21
<BluesKaj> I no longer look forward to birthdays
<Jonopoly> sad i can't use ubuntu on laptop T_T
<pragmaticenigma> What's preventing you from doing that Jonopoly ?
<marcoagpinto> and I haven't done exercise this morning :(((((( I was here at the computer
 * pragmaticenigma takes car keys and sends marcoagpinto out to the store across town for a soda
<Jonopoly> pragmaticenigma: Because on windows i do android development and it runs alright 40-45c
<Jonopoly> when i use any of the ubuntu flavours i get 55-60 just idle
<pragmaticenigma> are you talking CPU temperature?
<lordievader> Jonopoly: Android studio runs fine on Linux
<Jonopoly> lordievader: my laptop is only 3 weeks old - don't want it running extra 10-15c
<Jonopoly> when it's not needed
<pragmaticenigma> Jonopoly: What processor is in the laptop?
<Jonopoly> hmm I'm not on it atm let me try google specs
<lordievader> Wait, that is idle?
<lordievader> Brr
<Jonopoly> pragmaticenigma: https://www.overclockers.co.uk/asus-tuf-fx505gm-nvidia-gtx-1060-16gb-15.6-fhd-144hz-3ms-i7-8750h-gaming-laptop-lt-26f-as.html?gclid=Cj0KCQjwjrvpBRC0ARIsAFrFuV8INKOPu0ax5BV7tx0fjtFjGcxnxdrr-BwRNEIuUiFCSQmGu0L6mpgaAuBIEALw_wcB
<Jonopoly> Intel Core i7-8750H
<JanC> idle temp differs per CPU, and measurements aren't always right, but higher temps on idle is certainly not normal
<Jonopoly> Yeah, it gets roughly 55-60 just on desktop with weechat open
<lordievader> Jonopoly: What temperatures does it reach under stress?
<Jonopoly> whereas on windows it maybe reaches 50? when rendering android apps
<JanC> my desktop CPU is at 27Â°C while playing a live stream in Firefox right now
<Jonopoly> lordievader: I haven't stressed it, i didn't want it to get too warm (as it's pretty new)
<Jonopoly> JanC: Laptops are usually warmer than desktops
<JanC> right, but there shouldn't be much difference between Ubuntu & Windows on idle
<JanC> there might be an ACPI bug that Windows platform drivers work around
<Jonopoly> i don't know how 'new' laptop is but i got it new couple weeks ago
<Jonopoly> not entirely sure when it was released though
<pragmaticenigma> Jonopoly: I would start with checking to see if there are any BIOS/Firmware updates for the unit for ASUS. I found several articles regarding that CPU and many refer to needing a BIOS update. That said, the temperature sensors are not that acurate and most of the readings are done via a themoresistor which requires a calculation to derive the temperature. Which means whom ever wrote the driver for Linux might not have
<pragmaticenigma> used the exact same formula that the developer from Microsoft did
<JanC> there's lots of hardware that is released early while it still has ACPI bugs and they come with special workaround-drivers for Windows, but then on linux someone has to figure out what's wrong and implement a workaround too, which takes time and people  :-(
<JanC> BIOS/firmware updates might fix that too indeed
<Jonopoly> Yeah i am coming to terms with maybe i can't use it now...
<Jonopoly> but one day i can
<Jonopoly> and that day will be good
<JanC> pragmaticenigma: I assume that for the in-CPU measurements they would use the right formula?
<BluesKaj> there might be some daemons using up cpu and creating extra heat like file indexers etc
<JanC> hm, true
<Jonopoly> Even without the sensors
<JanC> not much files to index on a new system though?
<Jonopoly> it feels slightly at touch.. warmer
<BluesKaj> they still run tho
<Jonopoly> not sure if it matters but around the enter key it feels slightly warmer
<Jonopoly> I'll install it tonight again.. and give it a look
<JanC> and it should be possible to see a process that uses lots of CPU
<BluesKaj> htop is one
<Jonopoly> luckily my laptop has the option to remove boot options
<lordievader> When running on battery, how much power is it draining from the battery? (You can view this via powertop)
<Jonopoly> so can easily install an os and remove it
<JanC> might be useful to check what is below the enter key, but I assume it will be the CPU  :)
<pragmaticenigma> JanC: The formula would be vendor specific to the materials used to create the sensor. There can be variations in a single batch too.
<JanC> pragmaticenigma: but for the same CPU it would be the same sensor and I think the CPU does the reading of it?
<JanC> for sensors outside the CPU you are right that they are not always very accurate
<JanC> and might be read differently between OS
<pragmaticenigma> JanC: but that negates the material variations used in the sensor. The sensors were added as a safety to cut power to the CPU, the ability for an application to read said sensor was an after thought
<JanC> pragmaticenigma: the point is not if they are 100% accurate, the point is that it's the same sensor in both cases, and that they are read the same
<pragmaticenigma> JanC: The point i'm making is, because the calculation is based off the measured resistance of the sensor. It is inheriantly inaccurate, adding to that the whom ever wrote the driver to read the output of the sensor may not have optimized it for that specific sensor
<JanC> the "driver" is not in the OS
<tomreyn> hggdh: i'm moving here, if you don't mind. https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/pkgreport.cgi?pkg=apt;dist=unstable is pretty crowded, and not few of them are documentation bugs, not few of which have been open for a good while.
<hggdh> does not surprise me... doc patches are not considered THAT important (and do not seem to carry glory)
<tomreyn> hmm yes, probably not. but they're essential for people learning.
<tomreyn> but i admit my motivation is also lower than it should be there.
<hggdh> there you go :-)
<hggdh> but we can try. As soon as I am back I will start looking at all the doc patches in Debian, and match them to bugs in LP. Gven a few of the DDs are also in Ubuntu... we may get traction
<tomreyn> this would be lovely
<tomreyn> i'm not too experienced in producing easily mergable patches for debian packages (or man pages specifically) though. would probably just download the latest apt sources from debian, unpack, create a second copy, make changes as i see fit in the copy, then diff -Naur > update_manpages.diff
 * tomreyn late lunch, bbl
<lotuspsychje> good evening to all
<daftykins> i hear you're dealing with tmlake's Kodi troubles
<daftykins> best not to entertain someone who is insisting on sticking to an older release
<Bashing-om> daftykins: A work in progress: "< ioria> tmlake, so, try the old verson of 18.04 (with kernel 4.15.0-54 not 4.18)"
<daftykins> their own log said they were on 4.15, heh
<daftykins> they filed a bug against an outdated release on a PPA... madness
<Bashing-om> daftykins: :P .. there is that .. yup .
<daftykins> :D
#ubuntu-discuss 2019-07-18
<lotuspsychje> good morning to all
<daftykins> haha you're TJ's bedtime alarm
<lotuspsychje> lol
<Gallomimia> lotuspsychje is very early today. he's usually my bedtime alarm too.
<daftykins> hehehe
<lordievader> Good morning
<BluesKaj> Hi folks
<lotuspsychje> !info linux-image-generic disco
<ubot5> linux-image-generic (source: linux-meta): Generic Linux kernel image. In component main, is optional. Version 5.0.0.20.21 (disco), package size 2 kB, installed size 15 kB
#ubuntu-discuss 2019-07-19
<hggdh> tomreyn: most factoids done; I am missing to deal with the derivatives only
<lotuspsychje> good (early) morning (dont need to run away yet)
<lotuspsychje> oh, he's not here
<daftykins> xD
<akem-lnvo> Hello, good morning.
<daftykins> \o
<lotuspsychje> morning akem-lnvo
<marcoagpinto> Heya
<BluesKaj> hey folks
<marcoagpinto> BluesKaj!!!! Hello!
<BluesKaj> hi marcoagpinto
<marcoagpinto> I got back from the store minutes ago
<marcoagpinto> :)
<BluesKaj> having morning coffee here
<marcoagpinto> cool
<marcoagpinto> :)
<marcoagpinto> I wanted to work on the task my supervisor gave me but no more vacations and tomorrow I am back to the supermarket, so, I can't focus
<marcoagpinto> :)
<marcoagpinto> he said a dissertation is to write a story about something, and that is why my thesis is a crap
<marcoagpinto> :)
<marcoagpinto> because it has no story, just facts/information
<marcoagpinto> and I need to write a story for him... 20 pages... but I am very stressed
<BluesKaj> well, you know that caffeine prevents relaxation and sometimes focus
<marcoagpinto> BluesKaj: I read about it some months ago
<marcoagpinto> I already drunk 3 litres of cola
<BluesKaj> heh, I rest my case :-)
<marcoagpinto> :)
<tomreyn> Hey popeye, do you think those restrictions could be loosened a bit? https://community.ubuntu.com/t/limiting-brand-new-user-accounts/10687
<tomreyn> I've posted a topic, which got responses by several, including myself. I'd like to post a new topic but apparently cannot.
<tomreyn> looks like i just made it to level one by reading the community guidelines (i was certain i had done so before). it would be great to point this out more.
<lotuspsychje> popey: ^
<tomreyn> oh, i misspelled the nick, thanks lotuspsychje
<lotuspsychje> np ; ) and hi tomreyn
<tomreyn> and hello to you as well ;)
<marcoagpinto> hey
<marcoagpinto> :)
<hggdh> good mornings/afternoons/evenings to all
<lotuspsychje> hey hggdh how goes
<OerHeks> :-)\
<lotuspsychje> you skared him OerHeks
<OerHeks> i did, did i?
<BluesKaj> lotuspsychje, he shouldn't need compiz with the new gnome DEs
<pragmaticenigma> lotuspsychje: youurway isn't worth spending much more time with. They're just wasting time whining about eeking out tiny droplets of performance from an already fairly high performance setup
<lotuspsychje> there is a package gnome-compiz but not sure how they use it these days
<lotuspsychje> i recall a user experimenting with compiz succesfully on bionic before
<pragmaticenigma> mutter is so tightly integrated, trying to use compiz is likely to make their experience worse
<BluesKaj> the guy is a throwback to the unity days, he still thinks compiz will solve his nitpicky problems
<lotuspsychje> when installing unity desktop on bionic all we need it gdm or lightdm choice
<lotuspsychje> not sure how compiz fits in anymore
<BluesKaj> don't think he's even using unity. He just thinks he does
 * OerHeks installs wobbly windows on wayland
 * pragmaticenigma lives for the terminal
<lotuspsychje> lol OerHeks
<lotuspsychje> wobbly windows gnome extension corrupt gnome shell bug
<TJ-> lotuspsychje: note the "pcieport 0000:00:1c.4: AER: Corrected error received: 0000:00:1c.4" <- could be the bridge that contains the GPU
<lotuspsychje> yeah could be TJ-
<pragmaticenigma> lotuspsychje: Another thing to note, nvidia's driver is known to have an issue with the pipeline setting that causes either screen tearing or jutter depening on it's value
<lotuspsychje> we might keep an eye on that auto nvidia driver loading from canonical these days too
<lotuspsychje> i wonder if it will pick 'best' driver
<pragmaticenigma> I would guess they are going to take the work being done in the graphics driver team's ppa and start having them send their updates into the main proposed repo
<tomreyn> you're talking about some recent article or blog post where a tiighter integration of nvidia proprietary drivers into ubuntu was announced, right?
<tomreyn> i saw this the other day, but tried to find it again last night and could only come up with 2018 articles on this
<tomreyn> or maybe what we all read was actually old?
<lotuspsychje> there's a schedule wiki on it tomreyn
<tomreyn> lotuspsychje: a schedule wiki, what's that?
<lotuspsychje> schedule of that nvidia integration, but forgot url
<tomreyn> oh i found the recent article on this channel log https://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonevangelho/2019/07/12/ubuntu-executes-another-massive-change-to-the-way-it-updates-proprietary-nvidia-drivers/
<tomreyn> maybe forbes is not the best source for this
<pragmaticenigma> they're not
<pragmaticenigma> Each article has a 50/50 shot of being fact checked and accurate
<OerHeks> oehh  i like risky info & details
<OerHeks> tomreyn,  did you bing or google?
<tomreyn> i "startpaged"
<OerHeks> Website Blacklist Status Domain clean by Google Safe Browsing Domain clean by Norton Safe Web Domain clean by McAfee Domain clean by Sucuri Labs Domain clean by ESETDomain clean by PhishTank Domain clean by Yandex Domain clean by Opera Domain clean by Spamhaus  ... sure, https://sitecheck.sucuri.net/results/zerohedge.com
<lotuspsychje> cant find that wiki anymore, maybe deleted after the integration?
<lotuspsychje> ah!
<lotuspsychje> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NVidiaUpdates
<lotuspsychje> https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=NVIDIA-New-Drivers-SRU-Ubuntu
<tomreyn> thank you, lotuspsychje !
<lotuspsychje> tomreyn: np, now food here
<daftykins> do i spy an openssl issue fixed apache sneaking into bionic?
<pragmaticenigma> huh?
<pragmaticenigma> dependency mix match daftykins ?
<TJ-> daftykins: that'll be the one I hunted down, yes
<tomreyn> http://changelogs.ubuntu.com/changelogs/pool/main/a/apache2/apache2_2.4.29-1ubuntu4.8/changelog
<daftykins> TJ-: great :D and good work!
<daftykins> ah http2, iirc that isn't in use with prefork? i was only reading about the different mpm's for the first time the other day
<tomreyn> you use prefork in production?
<daftykins> yep, i only handle small sites
<daftykins> more than happy to hear good advice on what i should consider :D but i always just used to prune the worker count and stick to default, yep
<TJ-> There are some TLSv1.3 issues caused by openssl 1.1.1 changes affecting nginx and possibly other packages, too
<daftykins> i kept feeling like i should take nginx for more of a spin, but i feel comfy sticking to what i 'know' :)
<tomreyn> daftykins: i used to use prefork with mod_php in the past, but nowadays prefer nginx or apache mpm with separate application servers (fpm for php) since it makes it more configurable and a lot easier to identify where things are going wrong especially if you host multiple web applications or multiple user contexts (shared hosting).
<tomreyn> much of nginx is really nice if you don't have users who insist on .htaccess files. it is less configurable than apache httpd, but usually you don't need this. nginx is fast by default, requires learning a new configuration syntax, though. and sometimes mind bending to get the configuration you need.
<TJ-> I prefer apache2 because I know whatever weird edge-case I might want to use it for, there will be a module for it, and because I use the custom suexec package to have each vhost run as a different user account
<daftykins> mmm i've seen too much use of .htaccess between nextcloud and wordpress, on a single server where i host a few sites, they're mostly static pages
<daftykins> if the prevailing advice would be to switch to worker instead of prefork though, i'm all ears?
<daftykins> i think it's fair to say my experience only goes so far as getting things going for the most part - i could probably benefit from the suexec approach to separate my friends wordpress site from his nextcloud instance which i just set up the other night
<daftykins> i went down the route of using ecryptfs against the data path in the end, so if i have to restart the digitalocean VPS for updates say, i need to SSH in and mount it again, providing the key - before nextcloud will resume operating
<daftykins> totally useless as i understand it whilst it's running - so i'm wondering whether his employees should consider using client side tools for encrypting documents in addition
<pragmaticenigma> would like to better understand nginx... I was always under the impression it was meant for static content only, and if you needed dynamic content, you could create a provider and forward that through nginx
<TJ-> The apache event worker is just as performant as nginx in most cases which addresses some of the reasons nginx exists... the biggest thing that help back apache was php
<TJ-> s/help/held/
<pragmaticenigma> surprised PHP is still around after the major bugs that were found a few years back... I saw a lot of companies distance themselves from it
<TJ-> everything has bugs, no matter what technology is used, PHP is a target due to being so prevalent of course, but Java EE has the same record overall.
<pragmaticenigma> PHP is a target because it was very popular. PHP itself really wasn't what was vulnerable, as much as it was how developers used its tools and exposed things unintentionally
<tomreyn> php made it really easy to make grave mistakes. also there was the low entry barrier, unlike java, which has a higher one. you'd hope people understanding higher level langauges also have a better idea of how to program properly, and sometimes they do.
<pragmaticenigma> most do... but when it comes time for hobby projects, they sometimes aren't as attentive
<tomreyn> i agree with 'apache event worker can be just as performant as nginx'. you may need to tweak it more snice it comes with less targetted defaults than nginx does.
<tomreyn> but then if the nginx default targets are wrong you may need to tweak a lot there, and documentation is levels worse than that of apache httpd)
<pragmaticenigma> yeah... took a fair amount of fine tuning for me to get apache to play nice with mod_wsgi for my python projects
#ubuntu-discuss 2019-07-20
<lotuspsychje> good morning to all
<sarnold> hey lotuspsychje
<lotuspsychje> hey sarnold
<lotuspsychje> all good mate?
<sarnold> yeah, friday evening, almost dinner time :)
<sarnold> nice weather..
<lotuspsychje> nice, bon apetit for you in a bit
<sarnold> and a friend I haven't talked with in sixmonths just popped online. not bad :D
<lotuspsychje> we getting 30c+ on mondays, whole week
<daftykins> oof
<sarnold> oof
<lotuspsychje> tomreyn saying france will do 40+
<sarnold> double-oof
<lotuspsychje> even for the french that will be sweating
<sarnold> actually 30 31 33 30 29 .. in the forecast here. today's 23. siiigh
<lotuspsychje> seems like the globe doing alot of countrys similar
<hggdh> on the other hand, Texas has not been too hot (so far). Around 34C the last 10 days (but feels like 42C due to humidity)
<lotuspsychje> didnt know texas was humid?
<daftykins> oh god yes
<daftykins> sorry *Tux
<hggdh> well. North Texas (where I live is not usually himid during summer, it is sort of dry. South Texas (the Gulf coast) is *very* humid
<lotuspsychje> aha
<hggdh> but this year we have had a lot of rain
<lotuspsychje> most humid i ever experienced was japan vacation, its like tropical sweaty heat over there
<hggdh> but if you want to experience hell, go to Phoenix, Arizona
<hggdh> very hot -- 45C and up, but very, very dry
<hggdh> the worst humudity I experienced was in smack middle of the Amazon, a city called Manaus. temps there were usually 32C, humidity usually near 100%
<lotuspsychje> : o
<lotuspsychje> yeah jungle style, thats what japan felt like
<lotuspsychje> crickets in the middle ot tokyo
<hggdh> heh
<hggdh> bah, dodo time, bonne nuit a tous
<lotuspsychje> merci bien
<Eickmeyer> hggdh: I'll be in your neck of the woods next month.
<lotuspsychje> !18.10
<ubot5> Ubuntu 18.10 (Cosmic Cuttlefish) was the 29th release of Ubuntu. Support ended July 18th, 2019. See !eol and https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-security-announce/2019-July/004996.html
<lotuspsychje> welcome EoflaOEViceCity
<EoflaOEViceCity> Thanks
<lotuspsychje> EoflaOEViceCity: first time i see you doing support with us
<EoflaOEViceCity> lotuspsychje: Yes, but if you look at some dates in the IRC log server, then you may see me helping other people. Let me look at the date.
<lotuspsychje> EoflaOEViceCity: oh, i dont prove mate
<lotuspsychje> EoflaOEViceCity: we can just chat about it :p
<lotuspsychje> EoflaOEViceCity: how long are you using ubuntu?
<EoflaOEViceCity> lotuspsychje: I have been using Ubuntu since almost 2015, and doing a lot of switching and testing.
<lotuspsychje> nice, with Os are you on now?
<lotuspsychje> *wich
<EoflaOEViceCity> On my old PC, I have both Windows XP and Lubuntu Eoan which is LxQt.
<lotuspsychje> cool
<lotuspsychje> 5.2 kernel now heh?
<EoflaOEViceCity> Yes. Linux 5.2 is still working for my old PC.
<lotuspsychje> great
<lotuspsychje> EoflaOEViceCity: you just doing #ubuntu volunteer support or also contribute in other ways?
<EoflaOEViceCity> lotuspsychje: Yes, if I know the answer.
<lotuspsychje> i mean like bugs or other contribute
<EoflaOEViceCity> To now, I have not reported any bug in Eoan, but maybe I will in the future.
<lotuspsychje> got a launchpad account?
<EoflaOEViceCity> Yes
<lotuspsychje> we have an ubuntu-discuss bug team, hence why all the questions
<lotuspsychje> if you like to i can add you?
<EoflaOEViceCity> Yes. Add me. I will contribute as much as I can
<lotuspsychje> EoflaOEViceCity: we use the group, to help #ubutnu a better way, add 'important/relevant' bugs in it
<lotuspsychje> EoflaOEViceCity: whats your LP nick?
<EoflaOEViceCity> lotuspsychje: I will look it up and come back. If you see me that I leave, then it must have been oom-killer killing the IRC client on Android.
<lotuspsychje> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-discuss
<EoflaOEViceCity> Name: EoflaOE | ID: eofla
<lotuspsychje> EoflaOEViceCity: regular user or admin (more email notices) ?
<EoflaOEViceCity> admin
<lotuspsychje> request sent EoflaOEViceCity
<lotuspsychje> and welcome to the crew :p
<EoflaOEViceCity> OK, thanks
<lotuspsychje> EoflaOEViceCity: when you feel a bug is relevant for #ubuntu, you can add 'someone else' ==> choose the discuss team
<EoflaOEViceCity> OK.
<lotuspsychje> EoflaOEViceCity: i contribute mostly in #ubuntu and heavy LTS bug out from developing stage
<EoflaOEViceCity> Nice
<BluesKaj> Howdy folks
<jeremy31> When will upstream finally end the rtl8192cu module?  Most of those devices are also supported in the newer rtl8xxxu module
#ubuntu-discuss 2019-07-21
<lotuspsychje> good morning to all
<BluesKaj> Hi folks
<hggdh> lotuspsychje: /topic updated. Thank you
<tomreyn> hggdh: thanks for this, and moreover, for waorking through the factoid update list as well!
<tomreyn> are you also able to update the #ubuntu-server topic? it still points to 16.04 as the latest LTS
<tomreyn> https://help.ubuntu.com/lts/serverguide/ would be the correct 'latest LTS release' documentation link there
<hggdh> tomreyn: for #u-server, I would rather have one of the current ops there make the change
<tomreyn> hggdh: that's understandable. i gave up on this, though, suggested the change in channel 3 times.
<hggdh> just did it myself in the ops channel :-)
<tomreyn> :)
<tomreyn> hggdh: oh actually i was wrong, it seems no one got around to handle the list at https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/CKYGhN3cfv/ yet (or not fully). i had looked at !popos which is now set, but e.g. the deletions aren't done, yet. or maybe you decided against deleting those?
<tomreyn>  !luks is not yet there, also, which puzzles me now since i was thinking !popos (which is now there) was also new.
<lotuspsychje> ty hggdh
<jeremy31> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/bcmwl/+bug/1837323  A bit late to report a bug on 18.10
<ubot5> Ubuntu bug 1837323 in bcmwl (Ubuntu) "bcmwl-kernel-source 6.30.223.248+bdcom-0ubuntu11: bcmwl kernel module failed to build" [Undecided,New]
<lotuspsychje> jeremy31: heh
<jeremy31> The bcmwl-kernel-source version is from Yakkety, no wonder it doesn't work
<lotuspsychje> jeremy31: i guess you can change this to wontfix?
<lotuspsychje> or is there still use for it in the future
<jeremy31> It won't let me choose Won't Fix
<jeremy31> Invalid might be a good choice since they are trying to use a bcmwl version that doesn't support the kernel
<lotuspsychje> oh right
<hggdh> tomreyn: yes, I am still missing the deletions for the derivatives
<tomreyn> hggdh: i didn't mean to push you there, thanks for working on it!
<hggdh> tomreyn: no prob, just making it clear :-)
<tomreyn> appreciated. :)
#ubuntu-discuss 2020-07-13
<lotuspsychje> good morning
<ducasse> good morning
<Bashing-om> UWN639 is on the strets: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter/Issue639 :D
<sarnold> omg how is it another week already
<daftykins> xD
<Ussat> sarnold, that happens about every 7 days :)
<sarnold> Ussat: tell it I don't like it :)
<Ussat> heh
#ubuntu-discuss 2020-07-14
<oerheks> MS drops PHP ? https://news-web.php.net/php.internals/110985
<sarnold> I'm glad to see the mention of security in that last two words -- they were planning on doing a fair chunk of heavy lifting on security support for ancient php versions
<lotuspsychje> good morning
<ducasse> good morning
#ubuntu-discuss 2020-07-15
<lotuspsychje> good morning
<joelcrump> good morning lotuspsychje
<lotuspsychje> hey joelcrump
<ducasse> good morning
<M_aD> morning
<lotuspsychje> morning TJ-
<lotuspsychje> TJ-: the channels you join most in are: #ubuntu :p
<TJ-> lotuspsychje: LOL
<TJ-> lotuspsychje: a plugin in weechat sometimes manages to delete the join list
<lotuspsychje> :p
<marcoagpinto> hey hey hey
<marcoagpinto> the demon is here
<marcoagpinto> >:)
 * ducasse hides his cola
<M_aD> lol
<lotuspsychje> M_aD: i understand users can lookup things on google, but when its a legit ubuntu issue, we should try to solve it here first right?
<lotuspsychje> volunteers enough here hungry to solve
<M_aD> lotuspsychje: i just recently returned to Ubuntu, so forgive me if i still need to get used and adjust to things here in the community. :)
<M_aD> but you're right
<lotuspsychje> no sweat M_aD : )
<M_aD> lotuspsychje: with some guidance i'll get there
<lotuspsychje> M_aD: wich Os did you came from?
<ducasse> M_aD: we have the !google trigger, channel policy is to not tell users to google something if they're asking about a genuine policy. just fyi
<ducasse> *genuine issue, sorry
<M_aD> lotuspsychje: i've been 13+ years with Linux at the moment, started with Ubuntu 7.04 then did the whole distrohopping thing for years. The longest i've been involved in were Ubuntu, Mint, Fuduntu, PCLOS,Phinx, Solus (the debian based one), Korora Project (5 years), Fedora a bit. Then returned to Mint and now back home at Ubuntu since last week. Trying to get unvolved in the Ubuntu Unity Remix.
<M_aD> ducasse: thanks
<lotuspsychje> wow thats some heavy jumping indeed
<M_aD> unvolved/involved
<M_aD> lotuspsychje: you don't want to know the list of distro's i tried in the past, it's huge
<M_aD> anyway, need to get ready for work
<lotuspsychje> cheers
<M_aD> will check in from time to time
<M_aD> oh, before i forget.... i'm glad to be back home ;)
<lotuspsychje> wb M_aD :p
<M_aD> thanks :)
#ubuntu-discuss 2020-07-16
<lotuspsychje> good morning
<M_aD> lotuspsychje: good morning :)
<lotuspsychje> hey M_aD
<ducasse> good morning
<M_aD> Anyone of you using the Ubuntu Unity Remix?
<lotuspsychje> adding bug https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/zsys/+bug/1886214 to the -discuss bug team as ive seen multiple users reporting it lately
<lotuspsychje> M_aD: i had some early netbooks where that first ubuntu remix was running on, been a while since ive seen it
<tomreyn> https://ubuntuunity.org/ lists established support channels, in case you're looking for any
<M_aD> not looking for support, was just asking. We have a irc channel too now.
<M_aD> or should i have taken it to -offtopic instead?
<lotuspsychje> no its ok here
<lotuspsychje> its a discussion, and its about ubuntu :p
<M_aD> ok, thanks for letting know :)
<lotuspsychje> M_aD: its the ubports guys continue the project?
<M_aD> Ubuntu Unity Remix is done by a 10 year old boy who's known as rs2009 here on IRC. Unity 7 is maintained by the community.
<lotuspsychje> M_aD: what would you say the benefits are of the new remix?
<M_aD> been using it for a week now but never really thought about that. i just like unity
<lotuspsychje> M_aD: normal unity desktop is also still a thing on 20.04
<M_aD> that's what Ubuntu Unity is
<lotuspsychje> M_aD: but you are talking about remix, thats something else right
<M_aD> my bad, i meant the Ubuntu Unity project to which tomreyn gave the link
 * M_aD is still tired from work and has to go again in a couple of hours
<lotuspsychje> ubuntu remix old, unity7, unity8, unity remix new, ubuntu unity desktop lol
<lotuspsychje> pick n choose
<M_aD> don't confuse me now
<M_aD> :D
<M_aD> lotuspsychje: it's this one: https://ubuntuunity.org/
<lotuspsychje> i know im just messing around :p
<M_aD> oh you tease
<tomreyn> in case you contribute to it and would like to make it show up here https://ubuntu.com/download/flavours you could /join #ubuntu-flavors and read up on how to make it a recognized flavor
<tomreyn> because "Ubuntu" is trademarked (and i think canonmical cares about this somewhat nowadays), keeping the name in a non recognized flavour could bring up the need to discuss this. maybe unity is a special case, though, not sure.
<M_aD> tomreyn: you might need to contact the project lead rs2009 about that. Afaik popey joined in on Telegram a while ago but i don't know how far he is involved in it.
<tomreyn> M_aD: okay, i don't care at all, just thought you might
<M_aD> I joined in just recently and offered help as Op in the IRC channel in case more people might join in there. I'll pass it on to the project lead. I might and hope to get involved more though in the future.
<tomreyn> :) nice, good luck there!
<M_aD> thanks :)
<M_aD> he answered... that was fast
<M_aD> tomreyn: The Unity7 Maintainers had taken permission from Canonical and the Ubuntu Desktop team to use the name Ubuntu Unity Remix. In fact, Alan Pope himself had approved this name for the project when I'd started it. And I'll be trying for official flavor status like the other remixes.
<M_aD> that was his reply
<tomreyn> M_aD: nice. as i mentioned, i don't personally care at all, but it'll be relevant to the project, so that's good.
<sarnold> tomreyn: what the heck wizardry are you doing over there? :)
<tomreyn> sarnold: trying to work around buggy bioses, like every other day. ;)
<tomreyn> unfortunately i can't claim to fully understand what i'm doing, just know it has helped before.
<tomreyn> black magic!
<sarnold> tomreyn: I'll say, I've never seen these options enable_mtrr_cleanup
<tomreyn> sarnold: maybe you never had a buggy enough bios to care?
<tomreyn> or just buggy elsewhere ;)
<sarnold> tomreyn: a non-buggy bios? :D
<sarnold> certainly though I see a *lot* of bioses in bugreports that are clearly much worse than the ones I usually see
<tomreyn> i did correct what i said! ;-)
<tomreyn> this one is sufficently mediocre to make you spend time on it
<tomreyn> if you search for acpi on https://termbin.com/3uf7
<tomreyn> curl https://termbin.com/3uf7 | grep -E 'ACPI (BIOS )? Error'
<sarnold> man there's a lot of "*BAD*gran_size:" in there
<sarnold> .. and so many acpi bios bugs
<tomreyn> some classes of acpi bugs are benign, but i'm not always sure which one
<tomreyn> no luck with black magic this time
<sarnold> :(
<daftykins> what about The Offspring - Dirty Magic ?
<daftykins> \o/
<tomreyn> that might help, not with falling alseep though
<marcoagpinto> Hello
<marcoagpinto> is anyone there?!
 * sarnold hides his ginger ale
<marcoagpinto> what are you doing up at midnight?
<marcoagpinto> :p
<sarnold> it's 1600 here
<sarnold> I'm still working
<marcoagpinto> ahhhhh
<marcoagpinto> :)
<marcoagpinto> I was waiting for midnight to send a birthday e-mail
<sarnold> very proactive! I normally lose track of time and send emails around 1am ..
<marcoagpinto> that is why I only took my pills minutes ago
<marcoagpinto> so that I had a fresh brain
<marcoagpinto> if I had taken them two or three hours ago I would be sleeping
<marcoagpinto> :)
<marcoagpinto> there goes daftykins with the netsplit
<marcoagpinto> night, all, take care
#ubuntu-discuss 2020-07-17
<lotuspsychje> good morning
<M_aD> morning
<ducasse> good morning
 * M_aD found some cd's of Ubuntu 7.04, 8.04, 8.10 and 9.04
<joelcrump> they must be old if they fit on a cd
<M_aD> joelcrump: those were the days
<joelcrump> win10 won't even fit on a single layer dvd anymore.. but linux will :)
<M_aD> and memory usage with Gnome 2 on a 32 bit system was 195 to 200 MB
<joelcrump> hmm wow
<M_aD> after loadding the desktop
<daftykins> actually the UK flavour win 10 does, it seems the US one is 1GB larger though
<joelcrump> oh?
<joelcrump> interesting
<daftykins> but... optical media in 2020? i'd fall asleep during boot ;D
<joelcrump> yeah i keep saying i'm gonna buy a usb drive but i have a whole stack of dvd5s that i want to use up
<joelcrump> and since i'm not running win10 anymore i can
<daftykins> i have dozens of flash drives with various OS installs or tools that i have on hand in my backpack when out and about at clients premises
<joelcrump> the last win10 build i burned to a disk was 1809 (not surprisingly since that happened to be the build that deleted people's data and had other flaws that linux doesn't have)
<daftykins> there have in fact been similar dramas reported in 'buntu's upgrade history, but try not to buy into these ramblings - it's just what passes for so called tech 'journalism' today
<joelcrump> well no one's asking for perfection, but these issues with win10 are just bonkers to me
<daftykins> the vast majority don't get any issues at all, but it's cool to rag on issues and spread the ol' finger pointing, so it persists
<joelcrump> i mean 1809 didn't delete my data (i didn't even keep hardly anything in my user folder in the first place anyway), but i found other flaws
<daftykins> overall i'm definitely not a fan of the new model, but it's definitely daft what people believe from reading pieces online
<joelcrump> if you mean regarding win10, it's true that it's a subset of users, but how can i be assured i'm not part of that?
<daftykins> that will be true of every OS in the context of upgrades
<joelcrump> that is true, but not one linux distro i've tried has had any significant problem and moreover they don't fix what isn't broken.. that's what i see win10 doing in recent times, take something that has nothing wrong with it and make it different and not as good as it was before
<daftykins> so i take it you don't provide support, then? if you haven't seen upgrade issues
<joelcrump> oh i'm not expert on linux, no
<joelcrump> i just learn what i need to install and use
<daftykins> oh i don't mean being an expert, just that i helped out in #ubuntu for over a decade and saw plenty of fail
<daftykins> your claim that Linux is better off is... amusing shall we say :D
<joelcrump> i will see what happens in october when i try the upgrade to 20.10, but even if it did mess up, i could just reinstall clean
<joelcrump> i will make backups in case
<daftykins> again, true of every OS
<daftykins> will you learn anything by wiping and not fixing? no
<joelcrump> if i could figure out how to fix it i would
<daftykins> there would be no better time to start than when something goes wrong
<joelcrump> that's true
<daftykins> that decade of support i mention? i did that from Windows - i don't even use desktop Linux - only servers
<joelcrump> oh i see
<joelcrump> well i am using a windows irc client :)
<daftykins> i SSH to a VM to use irssi with screen
<joelcrump> i would find console irc clients to be chaotic, too long using mirc
<daftykins> the only chaos would be visiting #ubuntu with one during troll o'clock
<joelcrump> yeah when i was looking at the list of ubuntu channels i kinda thought this one would be more my interest
<rfm> Some time ago ubuntu (maybe debian?) basically got rid of /[s]bin, putting everything in /usr/[s]bin and symlinking /[s]bin to usr/[s]bin.   Yet /[s]bin are still in the default PATH in /etc/environment.
<daftykins> and?
<rfm> It seems untidy, but the real question is: I already totally override the /etc/environment path in my .profile, anybody see any reason not to clean /[s]bin out of there?
<rfm> This actually just bit me, because I wanted to find which package had a command in it so I did "dpkg -S `which <command>`' and which found it in /sbin but dpkg couldn't find /sbin/<command> (since it was in /usr/sbin)
<Jordan_U> rfm: I can't think of any reason not to remove it myself.
<Jordan_U> rfm: If you wanted to be cautious, you also just move it to be after /usr/{s,}bin/ in $PATH .
<rfm> Jordan_U, in fact I see /usr/environment does just that, but my .profile didn't, so I shot myself in the foot.  I decided to be bold and take it out.
<daftykins> had it persisted in the same form through upgrade(s)?
<rfm> do you mean /etc/environment?  The one I checked was a recent fresh install.  My ~/.profile is the one I've been copying around from machine to machine since I changed from csh to ksh about 30 years ago...
<daftykins> yeah i meant lingering ~ cruft
#ubuntu-discuss 2020-07-18
<lotuspsychje> good morning
<M_aD> good morning
<ducasse> good morning
<M_aD> Good morning ducasse
<lotuspsychje> hey M_aD
<M_aD> Hi lotuspsychje
<oerheks> found it! mint server .. https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/linux-mint-online-server/ohcdfkmeiinmedcnjfdpdmffmohlomjd?hl=en
<lotuspsychje> no tnx :p
<marcoagpinto> heya
<marcoagpinto> >:) <- demon
<M_aD> popey: there's a channel for UU too now if interested #ubuntu_unity
<popey> why underscore?
#ubuntu-discuss 2020-07-19
<lotuspsychje> good morning
<M_aD> morning
<lotuspsychje> hey there M_aD
<M_aD> lotuspsychje: hey
<oerheks> :-)
<M_aD> you're up early
<M_aD> oerheks: hey :)
<lotuspsychje> how do you know my timezone M_aD
<M_aD> your hostmask shows BE so
<lotuspsychje> ohh sneaky lil user eh :p
<M_aD> i'm located in Belgium too
<lotuspsychje> oh really
<M_aD> yep
<lotuspsychje> where from
<oerheks> Haarlem here.. oh that is NL
<M_aD> living not that far from the Dutch border, Maaseik
<M_aD> night off from work so trying to relax a bit
<lotuspsychje> aha bruges here
<M_aD> :)
<lotuspsychje> lol oerheks
<oerheks> "The file https://github.com/...dataengineering-test.pem possibly contains a ssh private key"  grinn
<oerheks> this is not the only github :-D
<oerheks> man o man
<oerheks> https://twitter.com/leak_scavenger
<lotuspsychje> gits are nice tools, but things that used a lot often target of malicious too
<lotuspsychje> and it doesnt help, if the user helps the attacker neither :p
<ducasse> good morning
<amuro> Hi, what is the difference between the telegram-cli in apt and snap?
<jeremy31> the snap version is likely newer
<jeremy31> will likely take more space
<amuro> I installed telegram-cli with snap, but I got this error: bash: /usr/bin/telegram-cli: No such file or directory
<amuro> What do I do?
<jeremy31> I don't know, not a telegram user
<lotuspsychje> amuro: for snap issues, we advice to contact the maintainer, in your case: marius.quabeck@ubuntu.com
<amuro> Oh I got it, its snap run telegram-cli
<amuro> Sorry, I am new to snap
<jeremy31> I wonder how much help freemangordon will get from filing a bug, the module was already modified when the kernel oops came
<lotuspsychje> think i missed that support myself jeremy31
<lotuspsychje> what was it about exactly
<jeremy31> It happened in #ubuntu-kernel
<lotuspsychje> ah
<jeremy31> with 5.3 kernel, I doubt it will see many changes since it should be EOL soon
<tomreyn> jeremy31: oh i hadn't looked that closely. well, yet another expiring bug report then ;)
<tomreyn> seems to have filed it as bug 1888128
<jeremy31> I see unsigned ath modules
<jeremy31> My guess is that they needed to patch ath so that it would work with some of the iwlwifi backport modules
<M_aD> morning
<M_aD> what was ubuntu based on again... Debian Testing?
<jeremy31> Buster/Sid at one time
<marcoagpinto> heya
<marcoagpinto> >:)
<marcoagpinto> I am the demon!
<M_aD> pssst.... kindergarten is elsewhere ;)
<marcoagpinto> what?!
<marcoagpinto> I am the cola demon!
<marcoagpinto> :)
<daftykins> yeah marcoagpinto doesn't need #ubuntu right now ;)
<marcoagpinto> I only know Thunderbird 78 is live and I can't upgrade because it doesn't implement 100% OpenPGP... I will have to wait for 78.2 :)
<marcoagpinto> maybe two months
<M_aD> that's what -offtopic is for isn't it daftykins? I'm still trying to adjust and get used to all the different channels that we didn't have years ago. Plus i recently returned home to Ubuntu. :)
<daftykins> M_aD: it was really a way of remarking on the trolls that frequent freenode support channels :D
<daftykins> -offtopic is a cesspit that should be avoided by one and all
<jeremy31> I have seen places worse than -offtopic
<daftykins> well i didn't realise it was a competition ;)
<jeremy31> offtopic is safe for children at most hours
