#ubuntu-doc 2005-11-07
<corey_> mdke, shall we chat in here?
<mdke> yeah cool
<corey_> just sent a reply to the lsit
<mdke> saw it
<mdke> so your idea would be for everyone to be able to edit a development version, on one wiki, and only us to edit a stable version, on another wiki?
<corey_> basically
<corey_> that would be a hack while we evaulate a simply cms to replace it
<mdke> ok that is something along the lines of what we were talking about with henrik all those months ago
<corey_> by simple, I mean simple
<mdke> lol
<mdke> cms to replace moin?
<corey_> ya
<corey_> something with wiki-style markup, but some nicer features
<corey_> I don't think it exists, so it might be a very longterm thing
<mdke> well moin is on the main wiki
<mdke> so it would be easier for porting
<corey_> yes
<mdke> also, the main website is gonna be on moin so it would make sense to use it
<mdke> infact, moin = cms
<mdke> all wikis = cms
<corey_> ya
<mdke> anyhow
<mdke> it's a decent idea
<corey_> it might be driving moin towards features we need
<corey_> ok, that is good
<mdke> but...
<corey_> I was confused by your response
<corey_> tired, so tired
<mdke> i don't know if it would work in practise
<mdke>  will be noted at the top of the page). Please see HelpContents for help on navigation and editing or below at Editing this wiki. Please observe the [WWW]  Ubuntu Code of Conduct at all times.
<mdke> yeah i've had a long day too
<mdke> argh sorry for that paste
<corey_> it is ok
<mdke> lemme gather my thoughts
<corey_> ok
<mdke> i dunno if trying to maintain two wikis would work
<mdke> and it certainly would create problems for users looking for documentation
<corey_> it would probably be less work that the current one
<mdke> corey_, but not less work than having all wiki docs on help.u.c
<mdke> editable by all
<corey_> a doc.ubuntu.com wiki would have a huge disclaimer on it
<mdke> doc.u.c?
<corey_> ok, it was just an idea, not married to it
<mdke> sure, neither am I married to mine...
<mdke> probably, either solution is an improvement to the current state
<corey_> I think maybe moving everything to help for starters
<corey_> then if it doesn't really work, then we can evaluate further solutions
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> if we move the whole thing, then it doesn't work, we're bummed
<corey_> hmm
<mdke> oh well
<corey_> well, we can do an intersection of what is in CategoryDoc and NOT in CategoryCleanup
<mdke> that would be a good start
<corey_> generate a list of that
<corey_> move that over
<mdke> we have a bit of time to think
<mdke> see what the devs think
<corey_> yes, I will generate some ideas at the bof
<corey_> nothing is going to be decided there
<mdke> although, i would rather have the spec a bit more mature before too many people decide it's a bad idea :)
<mdke> but no biggie
<mdke> the three names on it carry a far amount of wiki-weight :D
<corey_> yes
<corey_> at least one of the three is there
<mdke> :)
<mdke> henrik is gonna be crazy busy now the website has gone down :)
<mdke> he said they were gonna do an emergency moin install :D
<mdke> <g>
<corey_> I think at the end of the day, we will arrive at something we can use
<corey_> do you live near hendrik?
<mdke> not too far
<mdke> he is in Oxford, I'm in london, about an hour between em by train
<corey_> ah, that is why you need him
<corey_> s/need/have met
<mdke> lol
<mdke> yeah
<corey_> hmm, that was an interesting typo
<mdke> lol
<bhuvan> anybody having commit access to svn repo. out there ?
<mgalvin> bhuvan: i do, what do you need committed?
<bhuvan> ok
<bhuvan> i wish to know the status of particular patch i submitted to mailing list recently. it's for kreleasenotes.xml
<bhuvan> i fixed the validation issue
<mgalvin> looking at it now...
<bhuvan> ok
<mgalvin> bhuvan: committed
<bhuvan> cool, thankx
<mgalvin> np
<bhuvan> mgalvin: can you elaborate "Document no validates" ?
<mgalvin> sorry typo: meant, document now validates correctly
<bhuvan> oh, ok! fine. just send accross a reply to that email, because its open for couple of days
<mgalvin> yup, sent
<bhuvan> ok
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-doc:corey_] :  Ubuntu Doc Team - general discussion - backlog at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs | Time to start thinking about Dapper | Projects on http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamProjects | SVN - https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos | Remember the Ubuntu community code of conduct @ http://www.ubuntulinux.org/community/conduct first | Read https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/inclusion-of-docs and comment before the 2nd
<hno73> mdke: ping?
<hno73> anybody around who wants to lend a hand in a website rescue opperation? :)
<highvoltage> hno73: can you please join ubuntu-meeting?
<highvoltage> we're discussing edubuntu website, moin, and plans forward.
<highvoltage> i think we need you more than you need us :)
<highvoltage> (so be warned)
<highvoltage> hno73: can i recreate http://gentoo.warthogs.hbd.com:8002/ubuntu/community as a wiki page here: http://69.60.114.106/Community
<jsgotangco> wow that's a moin wiki????
<highvoltage> is that what we should do?
<mhz> hehe
<mhz> hno73: what do you need? html 2 moin?
<hno73> highvoltage: yes
<hno73> mhz: cool, yes
<jsgotangco> err how do i move from A to B?
<jsgotangco> copy?
<mhz> hno73: have you ever tried the script html2moin?
<hno73> mhz: this might be the time :)
<mhz> hehe,
<mhz> ok,
<mhz> w8, I'm about to leave for a Edubuntu Class/Demo for Math Teachers :D
* mhz getting the script
<jsgotangco> ok moving pages
<mhz> hno73: http://moinmoin.wikiwikiweb.de/HtmlConverter?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=HTML2MoinMoin.py
<mhz> and at that page, also take a look at http://moinmoin.wikiwikiweb.de/HtmlConverter?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=ImportHtml.py
<jsgotangco> http://69.60.114.106/developers done
<highvoltage> http://69.60.114.106/Community done
<mhz> the syntax for the first is: html2moin http://thepage.html  mynewpage.txt
<jsgotangco> ok i'll do support
<mhz> hno73: if you have any questions, i'll be around until 10 more minutes :D
<mhz> srry
<jsgotangco> hmm but we won't be able to recreate the plone specific features...
<highvoltage> and me partners
<highvoltage> it's painfully slow :(
<jsgotangco> it is
<hno73> jsgotangco: I was working on that, but the sudden Plone breakage has brough it up the schedule a bit
<jsgotangco> hno73: ok we'll just move content first
<hno73> I'll ve trying to get some of those things in place now though, esp. the side menu
<hno73> thanks
<jjesse> morning
<highvoltage> oooh... subpages
<pips1> mhz, have you used the script before?
<jsgotangco> how do you make a subpage that is not in CamelCase?
* pips1 is trying what the most efficient way to help is
<pips1> mhz, ?
<mhz> pips1: sorry, I was on the phone
<mhz> yes, I have used Html2Moin
<jsgotangco> mhz: how do you make a subpage by not using CamelCase
<pips1> mhz, will it create "subpages"?
<mhz> oh, good question. I have never used for subpages creation
<mhz> always used it for each page
<mhz> I mean, the script is to be used for each page
<mhz> :(
<mhz> i don't know about the latter script thou
<mhz> as I will leave anytime now, what if any of you visit #moin and ask ThomasWaldmann or XorAxAx
<jsgotangco> highvoltage: how do you make a subpage?
<mhz> or any of the gang guys
<mhz> jsgotangco: ThisWikiPage/thissubpage
<jsgotangco> mhz: its not camelcase
<jsgotangco> well ok
<mhz> tried Html2Moin ThisWikiPage/thispage?
<mhz> afaik, th scripts should work as long as you specify url pages
<mhz> ohhhh
<mhz> you mean html INTO wiki Duh!!1
<pips1> btw, hno73 is already in #moin
* mhz slaps himself real hard
<mhz> jsgotangco: sorry
<jsgotangco> no we like it hardcore atm
<mhz> pips1: good
<mhz> .oO(why is that most of the time hno73 needs help I am on my way out :(  )
<pips1> jsgotangco, highvoltage are you copying stuff manually now?
<highvoltage> hno73: any ideas on the table on http://gentoo.warthogs.hbd.com:8002/ubuntu/partners/program? is there a way i can include html in the page?
<highvoltage> pips1: yes. perhaps i should use the script. what's the package name?
<highvoltage> or should i download from source?
<mhz_gettin_ready> highvoltage: html table should work
<pips1> http://moinmoin.wikiwikiweb.de/HtmlConverter?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=HTML2MoinMoin.py
<mhz_gettin_ready> highvoltage: visit druidwiki.org url for table sample (Raw View text) 
<pips1> mhz: and at that page, also take a look at http://moinmoin.wikiwikiweb.de/HtmlConverter?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=ImportHtml.py
<mhz_gettin_ready> tecnocimiento.cl also uses html table at front page
<mdke> hi all, hno73 
<jjesse> morning mdke
<hno73> mdke: can you see we are having fun ? :)
<mdke> yeah i bet
<mdke> get my email?
<highvoltage> anyone care to take the partnership page? i think i'm just messing up with the table.
<jsgotangco> im doing the support atm
<hno73> mdke: just now. looks like we've got lots of hands on deck though :)
<mdke> hno73, looks like it's well under control :)
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> lemme know later how it's going! i'll get home around 7ish
<highvoltage> what's the usage on HTML2MoinMoin? it just shows me some tags from the html file and file not found
<pips1> highvoltage, don't know... :-(
<pips1> highvoltage, I think the usage might be in the log of #ubuntu-meeting...
<pips1> mhz_gettin_ready, ping!
<mhz_gettin_ready> pong
* mhz_gettin_ready tiding shoes  :D
<pips1> highvoltage was asking how to use your script
<pips1> highvoltage: what's the usage on HTML2MoinMoin? it just shows me some tags from the html file and file not found
<mhz_gettin_ready> hmm, ok, i give it a try now...
<mhz_gettin_ready> pips1: which url?
<mhz_gettin_ready> (not the script url)
<mhz_gettin_ready> :D
<pips1> mhz_gettin_ready, ask highvoltage, I don't know which page he is working on
<mhz_gettin_ready> ok
<mhz_gettin_ready> highvoltage: which url d'u need help on?
<jsgotangco> how do you make a TOC?
<mdke> [[TableOfContents(n)] ] 
<mdke> where n is a number of the maximum level
<jsgotangco> ahh
<mdke> for all levels, ()
<highvoltage> mhz_gettin_ready: http://gentoo.warthogs.hbd.com:8002/ubuntu/partners/program
<highvoltage> brb. other emergencies calling...
<mhz_gettin_ready> mdke: and you can also ommit (n)
* mhz_gettin_ready checking ....program
<mhz_gettin_ready> pips1: sorry!
<mhz_gettin_ready> Html2Moin url sucked
<highvoltage> i can second that :)
<mhz_gettin_ready> this should be using http://moinmoin.wikiwikiweb.de/ActionMarket?action=AttachFile&do=view&target=HTML2MoinMoin.py
<highvoltage> i need to go now, be joining again when i get home, cheers!
<mhz_gettin_ready> that code shown should have been what we download :)
<mhz_gettin_ready> that is a real .py code
* mhz_gettin_ready is copying it to a plain text file instead of downloading
<mhz_gettin_ready> and of course, add 2.4 instead of 2 to the 1st line :)
<pips1> mhz_gettin_ready, so you call that script from the command line? 
<mhz_gettin_ready> yes, as in ./Html2Moin http://...stuff   text.txt
<mhz_gettin_ready> if you use the py not the html coded download crap
<mhz_gettin_ready> :D
<mhz_gettin_ready> .oO(no wonder why jerome and highvoltage complained)
<mhz_gettin_ready> sorry
<mhz_gettin_ready> pips1: ie.  mhz@b2175:~/OtherPeoplesFiles/xBuntu $ ./HTML2MoinMoin.py http://gentoo.warthogs.hbd.com:8002/ubuntu/partners/program ubuntu_program.txt
<mhz_gettin_ready> worked nicely for me
<mhz_gettin_ready> no errors
<mhz_gettin_ready> just a little manual editing to check moin syntax is ok
<mhz_gettin_ready> pips1: oh, to make it work, probably first apt-get install python-dev
<pips1> mhz_gettin_ready, well, it works without python-dev, but the output is a bit strange...
<hno73> um, it looks like Znarl is getting the Plone site to work again
<pips1> hno73, that would be good news!
<hno73> The extra trffic on the wiki server was causing real pain for the main wiki as well
<hno73> yeah, so were going to switch back to plone
<mhz_gettin_ready> ?
<hno73> Looks like the crisis may be over (well, let's see)
<hno73> But I still want to move the site to moin very soon
<mhz_gettin_ready> so no need to convert html to moin now?
<hno73> because the plone site is still very fragile
<hno73> the sooner we can get the site ready and working the soner we can actually move
<jsgotangco> i got to move some pages from support
<hno73> so it's not a wasted effort, just slightly less urgent
<jsgotangco> but there are a lot of subpages involved
<mhz_gettin_ready> right
<pips1> mhz_gettin_ready, I was able to use that script
<pips1> i.e. I tried it
<mhz_gettin_ready> any errors?
<pips1> no
<mhz_gettin_ready> i am getting errors
<mhz_gettin_ready> Traceback (most recent call last):
<mhz_gettin_ready>   File "./HTML2MoinMoin.py", line 153, in ?
<mhz_gettin_ready>     main()
<mhz_gettin_ready>   File "./HTML2MoinMoin.py", line 145, in main
<mhz_gettin_ready>     htmldata = urllib.urlopen(sys.argv[1] ).read()
<mhz_gettin_ready>   File "/usr/lib/python2.4/urllib.py", line 77, in urlopen
<mhz_gettin_ready>     return opener.open(url)
<mhz_gettin_ready>   File "/usr/lib/python2.4/urllib.py", line 185, in open
<mhz_gettin_ready>     return getattr(self, name)(url)
<mhz_gettin_ready>   File "/usr/lib/python2.4/urllib.py", line 308, in open_http
<mhz_gettin_ready>     h.endheaders()
<mhz_gettin_ready>   File "/usr/lib/python2.4/httplib.py", line 795, in endheaders
<mhz_gettin_ready>     self._send_output()
<mhz_gettin_ready>   File "/usr/lib/python2.4/httplib.py", line 676, in _send_output
<mhz_gettin_ready>     self.send(msg)
<mhz_gettin_ready>   File "/usr/lib/python2.4/httplib.py", line 643, in send
<mhz_gettin_ready>     self.connect()
<mhz_gettin_ready>   File "/usr/lib/python2.4/httplib.py", line 627, in connect
<mhz_gettin_ready>     raise socket.error, msg
<mhz_gettin_ready> IOError: [Errno socket error]  (111, 'Connection refused')
<mhz_gettin_ready> connection refused? why? i dont' get it
<Kamping_Kaiser> mhz, flood, seriously :|
<mhz_gettin_ready> ok, never again
<mhz_gettin_ready> Kamping_Kaiser: I already slapped myself
<pips1> mhz_gettin_ready, it works for me
<mhz_gettin_ready> ok
<mhz_gettin_ready> good then
<Kamping_Kaiser> mhz_gettin_ready: just ignore me, I'm just in a mood ;)
<mhz_gettin_ready> no, I can't ignore you
<hno73> the srver was taken dow, but is now back up
<pips1> however, the links are all from the temp server, e.g. http://gentoo.warthogs.hbd.com:8002/ubuntu/community
<mhz_gettin_ready> :)
<hno73> and http://gentoo.warthogs.hbd.com:8002/ubuntu/partners/program/ actually looks normal now
<pips1> ... so those will all need manual editing ? :-/
<mhz_gettin_ready> seem so
<hno73> so, just waiting for https://www.ubuntu.com/ to come back
<mhz_gettin_ready> bbl
<pips1> oops! Wiki: "The authentication database is temporarily unavailable. Anonymous access only."
<highvoltage> hno_away: http://www.ubuntulinux.org points to the plone site.
<mdke> yes it is more or less working now
<mdke> a few dns issues left afaics
<hno_away> highvoltage: yeah the plone server has recovered, sort of
<hno_away> thanks to everyone who helped out
<hno_away> I still want to proceed with the plone -> moin migration though
<hno_away> just at a slightly less frantic pace
<Burgundavia> mdke, how do I recover a deleted page?
<paulproteus> Riddell from #kubuntu says http://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=18803 says this is a Doc Team bug.
<paulproteus> It's really a pain to have all my users say, "What's this weird error when I open Firefox?  Does it mean Firefox won't work?".
<paulproteus> Never mind; Riddell tells me it is his responsibility to fix it, just that you guys broke it. :)
<mdke> Burgundavia, go to it, then click "information" and revert the deletion
<mdke> paulproteus, i'm afraid we didn't package kubuntu-docs
<Burgundavia> mdke, can you revert this https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LaptopTestingTeamTemplate
<mdke> Burgundavia, no
<mdke> it doesn't exist
<Burgundavia> dammit
<Burgundavia> someone just deleted it
<mdke> that's not possible...
<mdke> if it had been deleted, it would be there!
<mdke> maybe it has been moved
<mdke> could it be this? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LaptopTestingTeam/Template
<Burgundavia> luckily there is an old version available at that page
<mdke> oh hang on
<mdke> i see it
<mdke> gah
<mdke> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LaptopTestingTeamTemplate?action=info
<Burgundavia> whatever, I recreated is a redirect
<Burgundavia> I need to update the template anyway
<mdke> weird that it lost its revision history on deletion
<mdke> that shouldn't happen
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> we need to turn off deletion
<Burgundavia> grr
<Burgundavia> I would support turning off deletion completely until we sort out the issues
<mdke> yes, we could set up a deletion request page
<mdke> deletion can be turned off and only enabled for certain users
<mdke> like on the Italian wiki :)
<mdke> Burgundavia, so how did BetterWikiDocs go down?
<Burgundavia> we didn't end up talking about it
<Burgundavia> I hope to push it onto the agenda, but I am not hopeful
<mdke> ah fair enough
<mdke> time to go home
<mdke> see ya later
<Burgundavia> night
<jjesse> i'm working on bug#18803 (http://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=18803) and is there something different between the package ubuntu-docs and kubuntu-docs that would cause the problem to happen
<Burgundavia> kubuntu-docs is probably shipping a about-kubuntu and ff is looking for about ubuntu
<jjesse> hmm kubuntu-docs does create the whole folder ubuntu-artwork
<mdke> jjesse, the ubuntu-artwork index.html in the ubuntu-docs package is a symlink to the index.html provided by ubuntu-docs iirc, perhaps kubuntu-docs is disturbing that
<jjesse> mdke: ok... so how would i fix it?
<mdke> i don't know
<mdke> Riddell did the package so he will be able to fix it i'm sure
<mdke> or did someone else do it?
<paulproteus> jjesse: dpkg-divert
<paulproteus> jjesse: I'm the reporter of that bug.
<jjesse> paulproteus: i saw that from the addition to the bug
<paulproteus> Cool. :)
<jjesse> paulproteus: if i'm slow to respond its cause i'm at work :)
<paulproteus> jjesse: The difference is that kubuntu-docs is doing dpkg-divert to move index.html away.
<jjesse> paulproteus: i don't know enough about packaging to help fix the problem
<mdke> jjesse, why did you get the job of fixing it?
<paulproteus> jjesse: Let me see if I can make this cleaer.
<jjesse> mdke: i just started to look into it
* paulproteus apt-gets source kubuntu-docs
<jjesse> mdke: and i think i got assigned it ?
<mdke> ok
<paulproteus> I assigned it to Riddell.
<mdke> i bet riddell could fix it in 10 seconds
<jjesse> i pinged riddell on #kubuntu-devel
<mdke> good plan
<mdke> firefox has required that file since warty
<paulproteus> ./debian/preinst:       dpkg-divert --package kubuntu-docs --add --rename --divert /usr/share/ubuntu-artwork/home/index-ubuntu.html /usr/share/ubuntu-artwork/home/index.html
<paulproteus> That's in the package.
<paulproteus> And it shouldn't be.
<paulproteus> Removing that line from preinst solves this problem.
<mdke> it is probably intended to move away about ubuntu and fails to replace it with about kubuntu?
<paulproteus> mdke: Probably.
<paulproteus> mdke: My hope is for a fix to get into breezy-updates.
<jjesse> paulproteus and mdke  its over my head sorry :)
<mdke> paulproteus, i have no doubt that will happen :)
<paulproteus> mdke: Thank heavens. :)
<mdke> but Riddell will need to fix it
<mdke> no one here knows the kubuntu-docs package except for him
<paulproteus> mdke: Heh, okay.
<jjesse> paulproteus: did you add  what you wrote here into the bug?  Mez on #kubuntu-devel is looking into it
<paulproteus> jjesse: I'm about to.
<jjesse> awesome
<mdke> don't forget that /usr/share/ubuntu-artwork/home/index.html is a symlink in ubuntu-docs
<mdke> iirc
<jjesse> mdke: you are correct
<paulproteus> mdke: Even if you're right, I don't see how it's really relevant.
<mdke> just in case it was relevant
<paulproteus> mdke: Okay :)
<mdke> otherwise, there would be no reason for Riddell to blame us :)
<mdke> so perhaps it is related
* rob^ looks
<paulproteus> rob^: It would indeed rock if someone fixed that bug. :)
<robitaille> I'm confused...who is gabe?  (from that email on the mailing list)
<mdke> robitaille, looks like spam
<mdke> no?
<robitaille> yeah...that was I thought so.
#ubuntu-doc 2005-11-08
<Burgundavia> salut robitaille 
<Madpilot> hi all
<Madpilot> Burgundavia: how's Montreal?
<robitaille> Bonjour Burgundavia.  So how's your french in montreal? :)
<Burgundavia> robitaille, haven't spoken a word
<Burgundavia> Madpilot, it is good
<robitaille> geek
<robitaille> get out a bit :)
* Burgundavia reminds everybody to look that doc specs and comment on them
<robitaille> was the spec changed today?
<Burgundavia> there are many doc specs
<Burgundavia> betterwikidocs is unlikely to get a session
<Burgundavia> unfortunately, you cannot currently like a spec to a team, otherwise it would be easy to see all the doc-team specs
<robitaille> do they give out goodies at the conference?  (still looking for a sticker for my laptop :))
<Burgundavia> yes, I can get you one
<robitaille> thanks!
<Burgundavia> they gave you losenge-shape Ubuntu: Linux for human being stickers
<Madpilot> Burgundavia: I'll take a sticker too, if you can. Desktops need decoration too...
<robitaille> thats's a good idea to be able to links specs to a team.    I wonder if there is an open bug report about that
<Burgundavia> sure
<robitaille> https://launchpad.net/people/ubuntu-doc/+specs
<robitaille> but is currently empty.  I wonder if an admin can add to it
<Burgundavia> I can retarget a spec, but taht is useless
<Burgundavia> we have been using a lot of gobby here
<Burgundavia> so I have been reporting bugs like made on gobby and launchapd
<Burgundavia> https://launchpad.net/products/launchpad/+bug/3812
<Burgundavia> that is the spec to group linker
<Burgundavia> so, the doc specs are:
<Burgundavia> https://launchpad.net/products/launchpad/+spec/desktop-online-help
<Burgundavia> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/ubuntu-packaging-guide
<Burgundavia> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/docteam-projects
<Burgundavia> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/evaluate-gnome-user-guide
<Burgundavia> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/documentation-marketing
<Burgundavia> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/better-wiki-docs
<Madpilot> I was just reading the UBZ Lighting Talks page on the wiki - looks like some good stuff
<robitaille> are the videos up?  we have been promised videos of the LT yesterday
<Burgundavia> hmm, that is treenaks who is doing that
<Burgundavia> no idea
<Madpilot> http://video.ubuntu.com/ubz/  <-- UBZ vid
<Burgundavia> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/improving-yelp
<Madpilot> hmmm... +1 to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ExampleContent -- helps solve the "but can I do [x]  in Ubuntu?" questions
<Burgundavia> yed
<Burgundavia> s
<Madpilot> somebody should set up torrents for those video files - some of them are fairly large
<Burgundavia> I am going to create a page for the DocTeam for dapper
<robitaille> Madpilot,  download them now before someone put it on planet and the bandwidth goes down...
<Madpilot> robitaille: I'm grabbing a couple now - and if someone made a torrent I'd be happy to peer it...
<Burgundavia> ok, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamPlansDapper lists relevant specs now
<robitaille> Burgundavia,  will scan the specs in that page later tonight and try to comment on the one I haven't commented before tomorrow morning (your time)
<robitaille> maybe someone should send an email to the ML
<Burgundavia> robitaille, I will do so
<Burgundavia> email sent
<jsgotangco> hi all
<robitaille> hi jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> hey daniel how's it going? =)
<robitaille> fine.   question: if you go to https://launchpad.net/people/ubuntu-doc/+subscribedspecs
<robitaille> can you subcribe to specs for the docteam LP 
<robitaille> since you are the admin of the LP team
<jsgotangco> hold on i just noticed that link today
<jsgotangco> (didn't really see it)
<jsgotangco> robitaille, i'm not getting you, i should subscribe corey's bof specs on the ubuntu-doc team right?
<robitaille> well, that would be the plan.  Then we go to the LP docteam page, and would be able to see all the docteam related specs in one friendly page
<jsgotangco> hmm i should add another person to admin the team as well if i'm asleep
<robitaille> earlier Corey was trying to do this the other around, trying to link a spec to the team (instead of the team to the specs), and it didn't work: https://launchpad.net/products/launchpad/+bug/3812 
<robitaille> s/other/other way
<jsgotangco> hmmm
<jsgotangco> http://opensource.nokia.com/projects/xmlpatch/index.html
<rob^> hmm how exciting!
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-doc:rob^] :  Ubuntu Doc Team - general discussion - backlog at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs | Time to start thinking about Dapper | Projects on http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamProjects | SVN - https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos | Remember the Ubuntu community code of conduct @ http://www.ubuntulinux.org/community/conduct first | Read https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/inclusion-of-docs and comment before the 2nd | Docteam meeting this 
<rob^> grr
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-doc:rob^] :  Ubuntu Doc Team - general discussion - backlog at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs | Projects on http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamProjects | SVN - https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos | Remember the Ubuntu community code of conduct @ http://www.ubuntulinux.org/community/conduct first | Read https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/inclusion-of-docs and comment before the 2nd | Docteam meeting this
<rob^> grr again
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-doc:rob^] :  Ubuntu Doc Team - general discussion - backlog at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs | Projects on http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamProjects | SVN - https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos | Remember the Ubuntu community code of conduct @ http://www.ubuntulinux.org/community/conduct first | Meeting moved to 2300UTC 4 Nov this week
<rob^> yay
<Madpilot> 2300Z = 1500 local - I'll be at work... too bad
<rob^> normally 1400, but I'll be drunk on a boat in the middle of the ocean somewhere at that time
<rob^> that and a few others wanted to see it moved for this week to the new time
<rob^> also
<Madpilot> have fun. 1400Z is 0700 local, so I usually miss those thru not being awake yet. Ah well...
<rob^> its not that bad, I miss out on CC meetings because I'm at work
<Madpilot> has the time/date for the next CC mtg been announced? (was TBA last I checked)
<rob^> well this weeks was an extra one iirc
<rob^> asking now.. :)
<Madpilot> still listed as TBA on CommunityCouncilAgenda
<rob^> yeah
<rob^> not decided yet
<Madpilot> they're monthly or every two weeks?
<rob^> I think they are on whenever they decide to hold them
<Madpilot> no regular sked like DocTeam meetings?
<rob^> not according to their wikipage
<Madpilot> ah well, I'll just keep an eye open, then, and subscribe to the CC-Agenda wiki page
<mhz> moin
<rob^> hi mhz 
<mhz> hi rob^ 
<Madpilot> umm - what has happened to "Subscribe" as an option on wiki.u.c?
<rob^> they made some changes
<Madpilot> my subscription list has vanished from my UserPref page too
<rob^> no trivial changes either
<rob^> all in a bid to make it faster
<rob^> it was the sending of emails that was clogging it
<rob^> hmm
<rob^> groups.google.com is down.. pretty odd
<Madpilot> there's been trouble all over the net all evening here - one of the big US backbones has been having some trouble, it seems
<mhz> Madpilot: Este wiki no tiene activado el procesamiento de e-mails. Contacta el propietario del wiki. Es el quien puede habilitar e-mails o eliminar el cono de "Suscripcin"
<mhz> that measn 'email' is disabled from wikiconfig.py
<mhz> means
<rob^> yep
<Madpilot> mhz: thanks... too bad
<mhz> Madpilot: maybe they are having trouble with email server?
<Madpilot> Wonder if they can bring it back but disable the option to use * to subscribe to the whole wiki?
<mhz> hmmmm
<mhz> maybe aty a level code yes, but I do not rememeber any option like that to pass it to the wikiconfig.py
<mhz> aty = at
<rob^> the best place to ask is #moin
<Madpilot> yeah. Some warning would have been nice...
<rob^> yep
<mhz> BTW, just to show off a little... I translate the es.po file in MoinMoin, so if you find any error, please contact me :)
<mhz> which reminds me that i am late for 1.5 relase translation :(
<Madpilot> I can't read enough Spanish to tell a good translation from an awful one, I'm afraid ;)
<mhz> np
<rob^> I can't read spanish..
<rob^> at all
<rob^> :)
<rob^> I can read aussie english and translate into normal english though!
* mhz is relief he can put anu stupidity there in spanish and these doc guys won't notice :D
<mhz> hehehe
<mhz> aussie english needs to be rendered with many resources in my head
<mhz> anywasy guys.. i'm off to a very important important gov. seminar in which I hope I can have the chance to bring the Edubuntu subject to the floor
<rob^> cool
<rob^> have fun!
<Madpilot> mhz: best of luck!
<mhz> see ya guys, and have a nice day (dai, doi, die, etc)
<Madpilot> I need to crash, myself. later, all
<mhz> thx
<rob^> bye
<jjesse> is there a reason "subscribe" is missing for me on wiki pages
<judax> morning
<jjesse> morning judax 
<judax> jjesse: Hi
<Burgundavia> salut jsgotangco 
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, take a look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamPlansDapper
<jsgotangco> hey Burgundavia how's UBZ?
<Burgundavia> it is good
<Burgundavia> that wiki page lists useful and cool specs
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia: can i add you as admin for ubuntu-doc in lp or should i assign other person?
<Burgundavia> that is fine
<Burgundavia> I do enough stuff in LP anyway
<jsgotangco> (so that someone in the other timezone can do the lp stuff while i'm asleep)
<jjesse> is there a reason i can't subscribe to taht page? DocteamPlansDapper
<Burgundavia> jjesse, subscriptions have been turned off for performance reasons
<jjesse> Burgundavia: ah cause i love notifications when pages are updated
<jsgotangco> (sorry if I haven't been doing much i have been adjusting to a new job)
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia: can we transfer the quick tour as ubuntu-marketing responsibility?
<Burgundavia> absolutely
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia: Ubuntu Packaging Guide, maybe can you coordinate with ajmitch about the IntroDeveloperDocs before in UDU
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia: Unfrgiven has made a doc for that (for review)
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, IntroDeveloperDocs are the UbuntuPackagingGuide
<jsgotangco> right
<Burgundavia> I just called it something different
<jsgotangco> ahhh
<jsgotangco> some of the parts were derived from the NM guide
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> what license is the NM guide done under?
<jsgotangco> mm i haven't checked when i last read it
<jsgotangco> probabl gfdl
<Burgundavia> in which case it is about to get relicensed
<jsgotangco> henrik is moving the u.c site to moin, collaboration would be much possible in a month or so
<Burgundavia> I see
<jsgotangco> there was a massive plone failure yesterday, we helped him move some stuff
<Burgundavia> oh fun
<jsgotangco> i want to ask though, what is your vision of start.ubuntu.com? a static page or will the computer need to connect to the net
<Burgundavia> start.ubuntu.com will literally be at start.ubuntu.com
<Burgundavia> so yes, the computer will need to connect to the net
<Burgundavia> the basic principle is that when someone opens a web browser, they are likely to actually be going to the web and thus have internet access
<jsgotangco> hmmm
<Burgundavia> and the about ubuntu will soon be an actual program
<Burgundavia> I guess we need to decide if we want to maintain the current about ubuntu and ship that as well
<jsgotangco> a pygtk app i hope
<Burgundavia> yes
<mpt> You know pygtk, jsgotangco?
<jsgotangco> i've had experience with it at work, although not extensive
<jjesse> can i ask why the decision to change from a static webpage to a web site?
<jjesse> for example, I am a dial up users so i don't have a dedciated net connection at home
<Burgundavia> jjesse, because static is crap
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia: that's not a good answer
<Burgundavia> jjesse, almost every other browser in existance has a dynamic start page
<jjesse> however i use FF to connect to some local apps, why would i want to have to open FF and then stop the page from trying to connect
<jsgotangco> CentOS and RHEL still use static start pages
<jjesse> i have the same frustrations waiting for the time sync check to time out upon boot up
<Burgundavia> jjesse, the time sync thing is probably going to be dealt with for dapper
<jjesse> konq doesn't have a dynamic web page
<Burgundavia> in kubuntu?
<jjesse> nod
<Burgundavia> yes, that is because we also develop that
<Burgundavia> not really a useful thing to compare to
<jjesse> i open up konq and it goes to /home/jjesse
<jsgotangco> actually the konq start page is good
<jsgotangco> (its no kubuntu start page btw)
<jjesse> agreed jsgotangco 
<jjesse> remember not everyone has a broadband connection
<jsgotangco> yes
<judax> jjesse: if you open with web profile though it goes to a static page about konq features
<jjesse> nod judax 
<jsgotangco> i'd still suggest a static page but one that isn't long enough to scroll
<Burgundavia> there are some minor losses for changing to a dynamic page, but I think the wins are worth it
<jjesse> explain cause i ahven't seen any
<mpt> jjesse, if you usually use a Web browser to do offline things, you are in a very small minority, but that's fine, just set your home page to about:blank or whatever.
<jsgotangco> i'd still say konq done it right
<Burgundavia> we can change the dynamic page without having to ship a new package to all users
<jsgotangco> (although ff is pretty limited as a web browser so comparisons won't matter)
<jsgotangco> jjesse: i was surprised to see the kquickguide and about kubuntu in konq
<jjesse> i wasnt :)
<jjesse> so where did this discussion end?
<judax> think it just ended
<jsgotangco> stalemate
<jsgotangco> or rather we got creamed
<Burgundavia> jeff waugh was at the meeting, so likely it won
<Burgundavia> t change
<jjesse> i guess i just don't understand the need for dynamic start page
<jsgotangco> well ie has a dynamic start page
<jsgotangco> so do opera
<jjesse> grin i force the start page at ie at work via group policy so its not a dynamic page :)
<judax> jjesse: you are a rebel
<jsgotangco> hehe
<jjesse> judax: i force a lot of stuff via group policy at work, start page, screen saver, background, desktop icons, whocan save things to the desktop :)
<jjesse> i'm a bastard that way
<judax> I hear ya, else it will spiral out of control and you will never get to go home
<jsgotangco> yes
<judax> :0
<jjesse> i just wish there was group policy stuff for linux
<jsgotangco> that would be neat
<jsgotangco> i really don't find adept that intuitive
<jjesse> jsgotangco: i would rather use apt-get from the command line
<jjesse> jsgotangco: did you look at the guide that judax did?
<judax> you do kind of need to have used something else (synaptic, etc.) to get started quickly
<judax> otherwise, I can see it being a bit confusing to start
<jsgotangco> yes its actually good but my problem is how adept's ui design
<jsgotangco> the filter is actually good but i don't think it should be placed at the start
<judax> I really like the arrow design for properties
<jsgotangco> yes
<jsgotangco> that's a good one
<jjesse> i do like the preview function
<jsgotangco> maybe the search filters just need rewording?
<jjesse> mornfall usually hangs out on #kubuntu and #kubuntu-devel (he wrote adept)
<jsgotangco> ahh k
<jsgotangco> i think its also logical to merge adept and adept-updater
<jsgotangco> or make adept-update run at the start
<jsgotangco> as a background process
<judax> yes, but wasn't the goal there to have an update tool like ubuntu, but it didn't get done
<judax> ?
<jsgotangco> what i find it strange though
<jsgotangco> is that i have to run adept twice to make it invoke kdesu
<judax> hmm
<judax> it does not do that for me
<jsgotangco> i can replicate it
<jsgotangco> adept-update is actually good
<judax> I used to only have kdesu trouble with kate, but that seems to have gone away
<jsgotangco> the network setting bug is really annoying
* judax runs to get more coffee
<jjesse> works fine w/ me when i launch adept from the command line via kdesu adept or when i go K Menu System Adept
* judax has a meeting to attend
<jdub> jjesse: group policy stuff -> look deeper into gconf :)
<jjesse> gconf?  will have to 
<jjesse> is there a kde version of it?
<jsgotangco> i don't think jdub is the best person to ask that :)
<jdub> jjesse: gconf is the gnome configuration system
<jjesse> yeah i saw that from the web page, but what if i don't use gnome, is there something like that for kde?
<jdub> no, they work quite differently
<jdub> it was architected specifically for this kind of use case
<bhuvan> w.u.c/DocteamProjects. can we provide status/preview links to (doc.u.c/..) if its missing ?
<jsgotangco> well the page is terribly outdated atm
<Burgundavia> bhuvan, that going to be changed after the meeting on Firday
<bhuvan> ok
<jsgotangco> yes
<bhuvan> oh, ok
<jjesse> what time again is the meeting on friday?
<Burgundavia> 2300 utc
<jsgotangco> since there's no svn activity at the moment the page isn't going to be too helpful
<jjesse> dang will be at in-laws
<jsgotangco> 2300?
<jsgotangco> i thought 14
<jsgotangco> 23 is for next next week
<jjesse> 14 will be able to make it
<Burgundavia> not according to the recent emails
<Burgundavia> I can make either
<bhuvan> DocteamMeetingAgenda says 2300utc!
<jsgotangco> what the heck i thought it was for next meeting
<bhuvan> seems we have been discussing in our mailing list about having it at 1400utc, but it's not finalized!
<jsgotangco> night
<Burgundavia> mdke, ping
<Burgundavia> mdke, never mind
<mdke> Burgundavia, :)
<Burgundavia> mdke, riddel was asking me about translations of kubuntu docs I was pleading ignorance
<mdke> aha
<mdke> can I help?
<Burgundavia> I think he was wondering whether we used straight gettext or kde-hacked gettext
<mdke> normal i guess
<Burgundavia> yes
#ubuntu-doc 2005-11-09
<Chainy> hi, just thinking about adding some more detail to the wiki about installing ubuntu on Mac - mainly stuff related to a dual-boot. I'm quite new to this, so would like to discuss with someone...
<Chainy> is there a mac chat line?
<jsgotangco> hey all
<jsgotangco> hiya robitaille 
<robitaille> Hello jsgotangco 
<Madpilot> hi all
<jsgotangco> hey Madpilot 
<jsgotangco> http://raw-output.org/20051103/the-real-threat-for-debian
<jsgotangco> haha
<Madpilot> ah!
<robitaille> you know you are gaining in popularity when you are mentionned in a Scotish Newspaper: 
<robitaille> http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/tm_objectid=16329893&method=full&siteid=66633&headline=steve-lawson-s-games-and-technology--tech-heads---do-the-ubuntu--name_page.html
<jsgotangco> why is steve lawson's name familiar
* Madpilot mutters about online papers that don't appear to actually publish the entire article...
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jsgotangco> that's the future of newspaper subscription
<jsgotangco> hehe
<rob^> grr change of plans, looks like I won't make the 2200utc meeting :(
<jsgotangco> rob^: its 2300
<jsgotangco> heh
<highvoltage> happy new year!
<jsgotangco> ?
<highvoltage> oh, time. i thought you meant year :)
<robitaille> jsgotangco,  yep, steve lawson's name sounds familiar.  Not sure why.
* jsgotangco hopes its not a name of a porn star
<rob^> hmm I might make the last half of it..
<robitaille> so it seems the ubuntupeople.com had a marketing meeting last Sunday:
<robitaille> http://www.ubuntupeople.com/file/forums/viewtopic.php?t=29&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
<jsgotangco> nice
<jsgotangco> =)
<robitaille> I wish they were interacting more with the other teams...
<jsgotangco> hmmm they probably like living in their ivory tower
<jsgotangco> robitaille: i guess their lp page is kinda useless atm
<robitaille> that's not their LP page.  I think that's the LP page of the marketing team based on the mailing list.
<jsgotangco> oh
<robitaille> personally I don't think it's going anywhere, the forums, or the mailing list at this rate...
<jsgotangco> well like i said before, they  should look into OOo-marketing
<jsgotangco> grand plans just don't happen overnight
<jsgotangco> gnome-marketing has some nice stuff as well that they should look too
<jsgotangco> hahaha according to technorati, my blog is worth $9,000
<mhz> hip
<jjesse> morning :)
<jsgotangco> Belutz: hi
<Belutz> hi jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> how's it going?
<jjesse> morning :)
<Burgundavia> morning
<jjesse> how is UBZ ?
<Burgundavia> good
<Burgundavia> my throat hurts
<jsgotangco> hey
<Belutz> jsgotangco, i'm fine, sorry i was editing my page in wiki, i'm guess i'm going to put my name in CC agenda
<Belutz> 23:00 UTC means 06:00 am in here
<jsgotangco> 7 on my side
<Belutz> :)
<jsgotangco> Belutz: jeezz you have 1000+ karma
<Belutz> jsgotangco, yes... 1000+ bad karma.. it's not good... lol
<jsgotangco> Belutz: i got to talk to someone before that you guys in id have a national program that evolves around JDS?
<Belutz> JDS ?
<jsgotangco> Java Desktop System
<jsgotangco> (Sun Linux)
<Belutz> i think so, the government i think using JDS
<Belutz> i saw it in the IOSN news
<jsgotangco> yes
<jsgotangco> (i don't remember the name)
<Belutz> Frans Thamura?
<jsgotangco> no no
<jsgotangco> hey mdke 
<mdke> hello jerome :)
<Burgundavia> salut mdke 
<mdke> y0
* mdke leaves
<mdke> see y'all tonight
<jsgotangco> lol
<jsgotangco> i need to sleep then
<jsgotangco> that would be 6 hours from now
<highvoltage> goodnight, jerome.
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia: Kevin Cole?
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, Kevin Cole is an LTSP guy that writes docs and wants to work with us
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia: yeah he's an RHCE obviously he knows stuff
* jsgotangco is more insterested with Kevin Cole working at a university which has good reputation for accessibility
<Burgundavia> he  (and another LTSP doc guy) are coming to our meeting today
<jsgotangco> wow
<Burgundavia> hello again, back from lunch
<Burgundavia> meeting in #ubuntu-meeting in 5 minutes
<Burgundavia> meeting in #ubuntu-meeting now
#ubuntu-doc 2005-11-10
<LaserJock> I have a quick question, is there going to be a packaging guide done?
<Burgundavia> LaserJock, already exists
<LaserJock> Burgundavia: where?
<Burgundavia> just needs to packaged
<Burgundavia> talk to the motus
<Burgundavia> it is going to be moved into our repos soon
<LaserJock> well, I work with the MOTUs
<LaserJock> is it on the wiki?
<Burgundavia> nope
<Burgundavia> unfrgiven has made it
<LaserJock> ok, I am working on MOTU wiki pages and I thin rob^ mentioned that I should take a look at it
<rob^> yes
<LaserJock> where would I find it?
<mdke> #ubuntu-meeting LaserJock 
<Burgundavia> speak with Unfrgiven in #ubuntu-motu
<mdke> jsgotangco, as i was saying
* rob^ burps
<jsgotangco> mm?
<mdke> my boss went to manila last week
<jsgotangco> oh he did
<mdke> for a wedding :)
<jsgotangco> did he like it?
<jsgotangco> he got married?
<mdke> i'm not sure
<mdke> no, his g/f's sister
<mdke> he was meeting the inlaws for the first time
<jsgotangco> well
<mdke> anyhow, he had a good time because they went to some island
<jsgotangco> being married over to a filipina/filipino means getting married to the whoe clan
<mdke> heh
<jsgotangco> he probably went to boracay
<mdke> he was born there himself, but he is english. his g/f is half and half
<jsgotangco> yes there are a lot of foreigners born here...
<mdke> he said the island was really small, with just one hotel, somewhere in the south?
<jsgotangco> for some strange reason
<jsgotangco> hmm
<jsgotangco> el nido
<jsgotangco> perhaps
<jsgotangco> there are a ton of private islands over there
<mdke> rob^, you're still not commenting wiki page edits? my god
<rob^> well without a trivial edit button I couldn't be bothered most of the time
<jsgotangco> rob^: face the wrath of the wiki mastah
<mdke> i am always pissed if I accidentally press return too soon and miss my comment
<rob^> bring back the trivial edit button then I will comment the relevent stuff
<mdke> there is no trivial button?
<rob^> otherwise the only comments will be relevent stuff :)
<rob^> oh its back
* rob^ didn't see it
<mdke> it's always been there
<rob^> nah they removed it along with the subscribe option the other day
<mdke> erm
<mdke> you sure you're not thinking of another wiki?
<rob^> no
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> must have been an accidental theme change
<rob^> there were a few people complaining about it
<rob^> its just a setting in the moin config
<rob^> iirc
<mdke> i can svn rm kde/upstream yeah?
<rob^> sure
<mhz_shower> it's a setting line on wikiconfig.py, indeed
<LaserJock> do you guys now if there is a plan to make subscriptions stay with renaming of wiki pages?
<mdke> LaserJock, that is out of our hands I'm afraid
<mdke> it depends on the software
<mdke> ok svn up guys
<rob^> :)
<mhz> LaserJock: however, I'd say that a wiki with no subscription makes absolutely no sense to my chilean ears
<mdke> mhz, that is not what he said
<LaserJock> mdke: ok, I thought so, thanks anyway
<mhz> mdke: i know, i am supporting his idea
<jsgotangco> what does A in svn mean
<mdke> rob^, jsgotangco, can we get rid of some more of the miscellaneous stuff in the tree?
<mdke> jsgotangco, Add
<mhz> my guess is LaserJock wants that back?
<mdke> jsgotangco, what is that "artwork" folder?
<jsgotangco> ok thought so, at least the ubuntu upstream stuff is intact
* rob^ is still svn up-ing
<jsgotangco> mdke: just leave it in branch...
<LaserJock> mhz: well, I want to be able to rename a wiki and have the subscriptions change accordingly
<mdke> jsgotangco, the artwork?
<mdke> artwork is not in branch
<mhz> LaserJock: me too :D I wanted to do some little complaining but I had second thought
<jsgotangco> mdke: yes its mostly brochures we'll probably transfer them to marketing or art
<mhz> LaserJock: ohh, sorry. let me think again
<LaserJock> I am trying to clean up the MOTU wiki pages but I can't rename them without messing up everybodys subscriptions
<mdke> LaserJock, renaming wiki pages is a immensely bad idea, don't do it
<mhz> LaserJock: nop, currently it is not possible, unless new Moin v.2.0 includes it
<mdke> LaserJock, it has other bad effects
<LaserJock> mdke: well, I know, I just wish it were possible. what about redirecting, is that OK?
<jsgotangco> wow FreeBSD 6 has wpa support
<mdke> LaserJock, check out WikiGuide. basically, you can delete pages or rename em if you make sure there are gonna be NO BROKEN LINKS, either on the wiki or the wider internet
<LaserJock> I hate making any more clutter but then I can't really unclutter either
<mhz> LaserJock: the thing is that my guess, is that people who actively participates in wikis should check RecentChanges on daily basis so they know which pages was renamed and/or deleted
<mdke> jsgotangco, were you suggesting I should delete gnome/upstream too?
<mdke> it has update-manager and gnome-app-install in it
<mhz> LaserJock: however, I'd say that a little tweaking to Moin code on 'mailing code' should do the trick to at least send an emial to subscribers
<jsgotangco> mdke: goodness no!
<jsgotangco> those are ubuntu upstream and our only source atm
<LaserJock> I am going to leave it alone for right now but I wanted to put all of the MOTU stuff under MOTU/ 
<mdke> jsgotangco, why?
<mdke> jsgotangco, shouldn't that be in gnome cvs?
<mhz> LaserJock: but moving subscribers 1st page to subscribers 2nd page... that sounds like much more than tweaking moin code
<jsgotangco> they'e not gnome projects atm
<mdke> jsgotangco, rob^, another thing that is a mess is that there is a libs/ directory in trunk/, kde/ and gnome/
<mdke> jsgotangco, update-manager is definitely in gnome cvs, I saw it
<rob^> mdke, I agree
<rob^> dam my bb is slow
<jsgotangco> mdke: well ok but i'm doing gai atm
<mdke> ok there is a bit of breakage with the rename
<mdke> things like this: desktopguide/C/desktopguide.xml:9: warning: failed to load external entity "../gnome/libs/gnome-menus-C.ent"
<mdke> that needs to be gradually fixed :D
* jsgotangco mumbles about "new job" and "adjusting to schedule"
<mdke> :)
<mdke> i'm fixing some stuff in the makefiles now
<jsgotangco> im on puny bb at the moment
<rob^> I'm fixing the validation in the kde docs
<mdke> awesome
<rob^> kquickguide is done
<mdke> i've screwed around with trunk a bit more rob^ so svn up
* jsgotangco just looks and enjoys the sun outside
* mdke get's on a plane
<rob^> there I'm done, they both now use xinclude and vaildate properly
<mdke> nice one rob^ 
<rob^> thanks :)
<rob^> ok I'm off
<rob^> bye mdke, jsgotangco 
<mdke> bye, thanks
<jsgotangco> brb
<mdke> this bhuvan guy is gonna be good
<mdke> i have a good feeling
<jsgotangco> most indians i know are quite good
<mdke> </generalisation>
<mdke> :)
<jsgotangco> my boss for instance is of indian descent
* mdke goes to bed
<mdke> have a nice saturday
<jsgotangco> night
<jsgotangco> robitaille: hello evil telus.net user :)
<robitaille> jsgotangco,  hi there.  yes, I'm an evil telus user.  But it was cheap :)
<robitaille> I'll have to go look a the logs of the meeting to see how much I missed.
<jsgotangco> didnt seveas give you a nick mask yet?
<robitaille> jsgotangco,  I think so.
<robitaille> yep:   [robitaille]  (n=robitail@ubuntu/member/robitaille): Daniel Robitaille
<Madpilot> robitaille's nick mask shows up here instead of his IP
<robitaille> I'm about to give up on the ubuntupeople forum people..  My last attempt was to try to convince them that their meeting should be on Ubuntu-meeting, but they don't want that.
<jsgotangco> i aw your ip
<jsgotangco> hehe
<Madpilot> robitaille: enjoying their own little empire, are they?
<jsgotangco> ok let's make it the two towers then
<jsgotangco> marketing lp and ubuntupeople
<robitaille> Madpilot,  they don't feel they are ready to open up to the world before they are ready between the 5 of them.
<jsgotangco> hehe
<Madpilot> If there are really only 5 of them, then the sooner they link up with docteam and the other main Ubuntu teams, the better...
<robitaille> the way I see it, the earlier they link up with the other team, the easier it will be for them to use resources of the whole community
<jsgotangco> robitaille: who owns the lp team same person right?
<jsgotangco> it seems they prefer doing business nowadays on the their forum rather than on the list created for marketing :)
<robitaille> jsgotangco,  Trent Lloyd  is the guy behind the fourums;  he is not on the LP team.  He used to be on the ML, but he stopped using it (not even sure he is subscribe anymore)
<nickrud> I was wondering if there was any particular reason that AddingCodecsToTotemHowTo was dropped from the wiki
<jsgotangco> Lathiat?
<robitaille> humm...not Lathiat.  I guess I have the name wrong.  one sec.
<Madpilot> nickrud: probably because the content was in RestrictedContent?
<Madpilot> RestrictedFormats, rather...
<robitaille> jsgotangco,  "Lloyd Hardy".  Wrong LLoyd :)
<nickrud> Until I linked the codecs into .gnome2/totem-addons, I didn't get thumbnailing of rm files
<jsgotangco> figured heh
<robitaille> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LloydHardy
<nickrud> or playability, for that matter (totem-xine)
<mdke> nickrud, perhaps the best thing is to try to improve RestrictedFormats, or link off to a subpage
<mdke> jsgotangco, i just thought, before going to bed, we should go to town on repos/vendor too :D
<mdke> the thought was before I go to bed, not the going to town
<nickrud> I'm not sure if it's actually a bug, or intended, or whatever. I'll look around a bit more first
<jsgotangco> mdke: yuck im not going into that territory
<mdke> ;)
* mdke considers branches/froud
<robitaille> froud?  the name sounds familiar :)
<jsgotangco> have you seen the gentoo documentation project (im sure mdke does)
<robitaille> no
<robitaille> good I assume?
<jsgotangco> its about to reach the quality of the freebsd handbook
<robitaille> was the Quicktour mentioned during the meeting?  I see that it is still on DocteamProjects
<jsgotangco> they even use their own markup
<mdke> yes it's insanely good
<mdke> but that's not surprising really
<mdke> mature distro, expert userbase
<jsgotangco> mdke: did you rename or just copied?
<mdke> eh?
<jsgotangco> i seem to  be having gnome and ubuntu now
<jsgotangco> kde and kubuntu
<jsgotangco> heh
<mdke> erm
<robitaille> I'm not a big fan of of the colours on the gentoo doc site, but it seems impressive
<mdke> only ubuntu and kubuntu are under version control
<mdke> you must have some junk left over
<jsgotangco> strange everything is in svn still
<jsgotangco> :)
<jsgotangco> robitaille: they built their own markup based on docbook how crackful can you get
<jsgotangco> hehe
<mdke> jsgotangco, https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/trunk/
<mdke> i'll do a bit more cleaning tomorrow
<jsgotangco> i'll just grab a new wc later i'm going to play with my car first
<mdke> cool
<mdke> have fun
* mdke looks at the clock
<jsgotangco> it would be nice if our svn commits can be converted to lp karma
<mdke> heh
<mdke> and if svn commit acces was linked to ubuntu-doc lp group membership
* jsgotangco looks at peer's unreacheable 3,000+ karma
<mdke> peer?
<jsgotangco> on translation
<mdke> what is peer?
* jsgotangco shows puny 114 karma
<jsgotangco> oh its EN_US for co-worker
<mdke> jordi's karma is a lot better than that
<mdke> oh I see
<mdke> yes, we have that word, i just didn't get it
<jsgotangco> well jordi is a different case
<jsgotangco> he uses lp like he plays quake or street fighter
<jsgotangco> when we were in UDU, he was teased so much that he looked like Vega (of street fighter)
<mdke> heh
<robitaille> I use to be near 400 of karma...but I'm now down in the 100s.
<mdke> nah his karma is high because he uploads a lot of po and pot files
<mdke> go to his page, then click translations
<jsgotangco> yes
<robitaille> I really have to get back into the bug triage business
<mdke> LP crashes for me :)
<jsgotangco> im sure the karma system will incorporate more, but at the moment, most of the karma comes from rosetta
<jsgotangco> malone doesn't give that much
<mdke> i've just done an svn rm, how can I undo my change?
<robitaille> both my written french and english sucks, so I try to stay away from rosetta
<mdke> found it
<mhz> i could happily subscribe to wiki pages this time
<robitaille> mhz ?
<mhz> robitaille: last time I had tried to subscribe to wiki pages I found no option (it seems it had been dactivated in wikiconfig.py) No, i could
<mhz> No = Now
<robitaille> ah.    that's nice.   I subscribe to the whole wiki, then filter out the changes I'm interested in my mailbox
<Madpilot> Subscribe was disabled for a while yesterday, not sure why
<mhz> me neither, Madpilot 
<mhz> robitaille: yes, subscription to all my be wise in some cases but not for my case
<LaserJock> to subscribe to all do you put * in the subscription box?
<robitaille> LaserJock,  to subscribe to all, you need to use  .*
<LaserJock> so, if I want to do all of the MOTU wiki pages can I just do MOTU* ?
<robitaille> LaserJock,   possibly.  I never tried it, but think it should work.
<LaserJock> well, that is what I have. I haven't gotten any emails since I did that but it could be all the UBZ work ;-)
<Madpilot> LaserJock: you could always subscribe to RecentChanges as a backup :P
<robitaille> It's 1am in Montreal.  They are all in bed, or they are all partying;  I think it was poker night tonight :)
<LaserJock> Madpilot: good suggestion, thanks
<robitaille> Let me go edit one of the MOTU page to see if the change shows up on your end.
<LaserJock> robitaille: thanks
<robitaille> did a trivial edit to MOTUScience.   But according to the message from the wiki after my edit, I don't think it sent you an email
<robitaille> maybe you should use  MOTU.* as your pattern
<Rob2> how do i get the grub menu to use the full screen of my laptop on boot?
<LaserJock> robitaille: could you edit MOTUScience again but not mark it as a trivial change?
<Madpilot> is anyone else having trouble with GMail? I can log in, but then it just sits at "Loading..." forever...
<rob^> sometimes evolution craps out with the password, even though it is correct..
<Madpilot> no, this is in Opera, off mail.google.com - I'm going to check with FF - but Opera was working just fine last night, and I've not changed anything...
<robitaille> Madpilot,  I had problem with gmail yesterday, but today seems fine.
<robitaille> LaserJock,  done.  And I think an email is on its way :)
<rob^> oh for those wondering whats going on with the ccbysa.xml, you need to use xincludes instead of entities now
<rob^> using xincludes is kind of like using functions when programming, you can have your own variables (entities) and stuff
<rob^> (local variables)
<rob^> using an entity to include a .xml doc includes it exactly as is, hence doubling up on the header and causing erros
<rob^> s/erros/errors
<LaserJock> robitaille: that worked, thanks much
<rob^> man I hate /., I posted that story about a $100 wind-up laptop a month ago and it got rejected..
<rob^> (preview my ass)
<rob^> hi
<LaserJock> Kyral: hi
<Kyral> night ;P
<LaserJock> rob^: I emailed Unfrgiven about the packaging guide, I don't know when I will get a reply. I don't know that he has been on irc lately. Might be at UBZ
<rob^> its pretty late now at ubz
<rob^> probably get a reply in about 8 hours or so I'd say
<rob^> no rush though
<Kyral> LJ be sure to keep me updated too, I know some fun tricks :P
<LaserJock> Kyral: will do
<Kyral> Really asleep now ;P
<rob^> hmm the freebsd handbook is really well layed out
<LaserJock> rob^: URL?
<rob^> actually my layout for the desktop guide is kind of like it without the server bits
<rob^> http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/index.html
<rob^> how odd is that?
<rob^> and I've never even seen it before..
<LaserJock> great minds think alike? [-)
<rob^> heh
<LaserJock> is there a guide for users of other linux distros? kind of advanced, this is how we do it in Ubuntu kind of guide.
<rob^> umm.. there are handbooks and user guides available for other distros, and there is a gnome userguide but its pretty unloved at the moment
<LaserJock> no, I mean for more advanced users coming from other distros to Ubuntu. Stuff like the sudo thing, dpkg-reconfigure, advanced apt-get and stuff that other, non-debian distros don't have
<rob^> oh
<rob^> well the desktop guide covers things like sudo but there isn't an advanced guide
<LaserJock> I am a former gentoo user and I found some things a little hard to get used to at first
<LaserJock> I usually find desktop guides pretty boring, so I don't read them much
<rob^> ubuntu tends to hold your hand more
<rob^> might be something on the wiki maybe..
<rob^> I remember there was BreakMyUbuntu once, but it doesn't exactly cover what your after
<LaserJock> hmm, maybe I will have to think about that some. Maybe something for the future. I'm not convinced that advanced users would even bother looking at something like that
<rob^> yeah agreed
<bhuvan> rob^: you there ?
<rob^> bhuvan, yes
<bhuvan> regarding validation issue. i do get error in trunk
<rob^> what doc are you validating?
<bhuvan> ok.  kubuntu/kfaqguide/C/faqguide.xml
<LaserJock> rob^: what do you guys use to do the docs? I am totally ignorant.
<rob^> xml (docbook)
<LaserJock> so how do you view that?
<LaserJock> I tried conglomerate but I crashed on some of the docs
<rob^> I just use gedit to edit it
<rob^> and use Yelp to view it
<bhuvan> w.u.c/DocteamStepByStepRepository for more details  
<rob^> yep
<LaserJock> ok, thanks
<rob^> bhuvan, the first error is:
<rob^> faqguide.xml:9: warning: failed to load external entity "../../../gnome/libs/gnome-menus-C.ent"
<rob^> %gnome-menus-C;
<rob^>                ^
<bhuvan> rob^: by default, it reports 'invalid element ...' error
<bhuvan> the first error is '../../../common/C/ccbysa.xml:2: parser error : StartTag: invalid element name'
<bhuvan> :)
<rob^> its because the header is wrong in that file, remember that mdke just renamed "gnome" to "ubuntu"
<rob^> its just looking in the wrong place
<bhuvan> yeah, i do have the latest copy
<rob^> if you fix up all of the directory paths in faqguide.xml then it will work, there is nothing wrong with ccbysa.xml
<rob^> also you need to use xincludes for ccbysa.xml, entities won't work either
<bhuvan> ok, i believe the change was done by mdke. i've not done any change myself
<bhuvan> should i ?
<rob^> sure
<rob^> &cc-by-sa;   <-- this is an entity
<bhuvan> ok
<bhuvan> what should it be ?
<rob^> use this for the two licences:
<rob^> 	<xi:include href="../../../common/C/ccbysa.xml" xmlns:xi="http://www.w3.org/2001/XInclude"/>
<rob^> 	<xi:include href="../../../common/C/fdl.xml" xmlns:xi="http://www.w3.org/2001/XInclude"/>
<rob^> and in the header of faqguide.xml you need to have:
<rob^> <!ENTITY % xinclude SYSTEM "../../../libs/xinclude.mod">
<rob^> %xinclude;
<bhuvan> hum
<bhuvan> we both are talking the same thing
<bhuvan> my patch extactly contains this
<rob^> however before working on the kubuntu faq guide you need to talk to jjesse as we are going to use Kudos for it
<rob^> well a fork anyway
<bhuvan> ok
<bhuvan> so, if you make these changes could you please commit the changes ?
<rob^> sure
<bhuvan> you must do these changes in ubuntu/adminguide/C/adminguide.xml as well
<rob^> the admin guide is fine iirc
* rob^ looks, no it isn't :)
<bhuvan> yeah
<LaserJock> so what is wrong with the adminguide?
<rob^> the header and the entities by the looks of it
<bhuvan> rob^: you can make similar changes in adminguide.xml as well ?
<rob^> sure
<mdke> hi all
<mdke> not a lot of point making sure the adminguide validates since it is totally
<mdke> totally/totally obsolete
<corey_> morning
<mdke> morning
<Kyral> Mornin'
<corey_> I missed the end of the meeting, after we talked about installing
<mdke> corey_, the rest was quite straightforward
<mdke> jsgotangco, log in, then go to UserPreferences and select "edubuntu" as your theme, save, and go to FrontPage
<jsgotangco> nahhh i like my wiki as is :)
<mdke> jsgotangco, sure, you can change it back, just to show you how it works
<Burgundavia> grr
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia: last day at UBZ?
<Burgundavia> yep
<jsgotangco> did you have a keysigning party?
* Kinnison was too lazy to organise one
<Kinnison> so I disorganised one instead
<Burgundavia> rob^, what is SwitchingtoUbuntu? do you have a big plan? (for the record, I like the general idea, just concerned about implementation)
<Kyral> mmm food
* Kyral quickly runs down Doc stuff he wants to do( Both to announce ond to remind himself). Help LJ with the Packaging Guide, do the Installation Guide, modify the PBuilder HOWTO to explain how to make multiple PBuilders
<Burgundavia> Kyral, can you add yourself to the DocteamProjects you want to work on?
<Burgundavia> specific wiki pages are not necessary
<Kyral> yup
<Kyral> I was also gonna insert a "ToDo" section into my Wikipage, more as a reminder to myself
<Burgundavia> sounds good
<Burgundavia> do you know about CategoryCleanup ?
<Kyral> Nope
<Burgundavia> it lists pages that need help
<Kyral> I heard about DocTeam from LaserJock b/c he wanted my help with the Packaging Guide
<Burgundavia> cool, welcome aboard
<Burgundavia> the wiki needs the most help over the dapper devel cycle
<Kyral> Yeeeeeaaaaa
<Kyral> The LiveCD Entry is like....old....
<Kyral> like referring to Warty old
<Kyral> Should I put my name in the Installer Guide and change it to WIP?
<Burgundavia> yes
<jsgotangco> sup
<Kyral> Done
<jsgotangco> Kyral: welcome
<Kyral> Should I join the LaunchPad group?
<Burgundavia> the wiki one or the doc team one?
<Kyral> Either
<Burgundavia> Kyral, what is your wikiname?
<Kyral> ChrisPeterman
<Burgundavia> I would do a few edits before joining the wiki team
<jsgotangco> i'd like to propose bhuvan as well
<Burgundavia> sounds good
<Kyral> Okay
<Burgundavia> for the commit access, send some patches to the list
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, I had a good talk with Robert Collins about bzr a couple of days ago
<Burgundavia> about switching to bzr
<Kyral> I've been meening to add onto the PBuilder Howto something about how to have and manage multiple PBuilders
<Burgundavia> cool
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia: oh are you convinced?
<jsgotangco> was james black there?
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, I am moving in that direction
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> today I learned that bzr is going to get a simple command: bzr publish
<jsgotangco> yes
<Burgundavia> which would push your branch to the supermirror
<Burgundavia> then they could tell us about their branch and we could merge it, rather than patches coming in
<jsgotangco> i could start a supermirror anytime if we're ready
<jsgotangco> well yes
<mdke> Kyral, if you're interested in an Install guide, perhaps search the mailing list, i think there have been a few people doing some work in that direction, you could pool resources
* Kyral goes over to lists.ubuntu.com
<Burgundavia> salut mpt 
<mdke> and there is obviously a fair amount of work in the repository already
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia: we can see how it pans out when bzr is done
<mdke> dunno what state it's in tho
<Kyral> mdke, yea
<Kyral> I was thinking of Beginnerizing it (did I just makeup a word?!)
<mdke> heh
<Kyral> Perhaps pull in Aysiu's work
<mdke> Kyral, the best thing would be to write up a spec, and then we can talk about it
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, that is my thought as well. I suspect dapper+1 is more doable
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia: aye, dapper+1 is a reasonable target
* mdke nods
* Kyral wishes the Forums were up so he could link to Aysiu's guide
<Kyral> Specs are made via Launchpad right </Stupid Question>
<mdke> not a stupid question
<mdke> answer is no
<mdke> just make a page on the wiki
<Kyral> Ah
<mdke> Kyral, see this for an example
<mdke>  [15:48:46]  < mdke> just make a page on the wiki
<mdke>  [15:48:57]  < Kyral> Ah
<mdke>  [15:49:10]  < mdke> Kyral, see this for an example
<mdke>  [1:S 2:#ubuntu-doc 3:#ubuntu-it 4:#ubuntu-locoteams 5:#ubuntu-laptop 6:#ubuntu-devel 7:albert 8:#DHCLug]  [mdke(+ei)]                                                      
<Kyral> After my little installfest/PotsdamNYLocoTeam Startup thing ;P
<mdke>  [DCCs: None]                                                                                                                                                              
<mdke>                                                         gah
<mdke> i HATE computers
<jsgotangco> Kyral: the lp page is used for tracking
<Kyral> hehehe
<mdke> Kyral, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopGuide
<mdke> jsgotangco, it's not used for tracking specs for individual docs
<mdke> don't confuse im!
<mdke> Kyral, once you've started it, pls link it in the Title area of the table on DocteamProjects in the "Install" section
<Kyral> hi hi
<jsgotangco> mdke: well i'm not i thought he was asking more into an ubz context, but then again, we're free to use lp to track down our own specs and make our own online sprint if needed :P
* jsgotangco goes back to lp work
<mdke> damn obsession with LP specs <grumpy>
<jsgotangco> mdke: LP is more fun than Quake4
<mdke> really?
<jsgotangco> ubuntu-ph uses lp a lot
<Burgundavia> we had a discussion last night about if LP needed buy-in from big existing communties to thrive
<mdke> heh
<Burgundavia> ie, gnome, debian, etc.
<mdke> who pulled out the "foot in the door" argument
<Burgundavia> jdub basically said that we don't need buyin, LP exists without them and provides value without buyin
<mdke> i think LP will eventually show off it's best attributes if a lot of different communities start using it
<mdke> but it should be pretty mature before that happens
<Burgundavia> yes
<mdke> it's/its
<Burgundavia> there have been very cool developments in Ubuntu, edubuntu and LP here
<mdke> good
<Burgundavia> https://launchpad.net/sprints/ubz/+specstable
<Burgundavia> that lists specs of all types
<jdub> mdke: they don't all need to use it directly for it to be valuable to everyone, however
<mdke> jdub, i'm sure that is true
<mdke> with the caveat that it seems to be causing a few problems for gnome translators
<mdke> I was just saying that its value with grow the more communities are using it
<mdke> with/will
<jsgotangco> mdke: in our experience in ph, we use lp to translate gnome
<jsgotangco> we moved all gnome translators to lp
<jsgotangco> as well as OOo
<mdke> that's quite cool
<mdke> if you do that, that stops any problems of people who aren't in gnome translator groups translating gnome upstream
<jsgotangco> yes
<jsgotangco> we're a relatively small group and we know one another
<jsgotangco> that's the strategy we took
<jsgotangco> debian stuff we do it upstream
<jsgotangco> so we don't touch those apps in lp
<mdke> they import into breezy ok?
<jsgotangco> dapper is our acid test
<jsgotangco> i don't lead the effort, we have one guy who's been doing this for years
<jsgotangco> really respected locally
<jsgotangco> ill brb
<Burgundavia> salut spayne|laptop 
<spayne|laptop> hey Burgundavia
<spayne|laptop> have i done something wrong Burgundavia?
<Burgundavia> nope
<Burgundavia> just saying hi
<spayne|laptop> yay!
<spayne|laptop> how is it going Burgundavia?
<Burgundavia> pretty good
<Burgundavia> here at UBZ
<spayne|laptop> any luck at getting your company over to Ubuntu ?
<spayne|laptop> :-)
<Burgundavia> nope
<spayne|laptop> is it the second week of UBZ now?
<Burgundavia> the president said maybe and the chief developer said no
<Burgundavia> nope
<spayne|laptop> lol
<spayne|laptop> Chief Develop = ?
<Burgundavia> today is the last day of the distro side
<spayne|laptop> President = sabdfl?
<Burgundavia> no
<Burgundavia> I work for Userful
<spayne|laptop> oh right :-)
<spayne|laptop> sorry, two conversations crossing
<spayne|laptop> what has he got aganst Ubuntu?
<spayne|laptop> the chief developer i mean
<Burgundavia> no idea
<spayne|laptop> what sort of things have been decided at UBZ Burgundavia?
<spayne> Burgundavia: i was going to ask, do you use KDE or GNOME?
<Burgundavia> spayne, GNOME
<highvoltage> hi everyone. how are things?
<spayne> Burgundavia, always used GNOME - downloading Kubuntu to see what it is like
<highvoltage> seems like kubuntu has been receiving lots of attention lately.
<Burgundavia> that is a good thing
<Burgundavia> the new ubuntu-express is going to be seperated into a backend and frontend
<Burgundavia> so the kubuntu people can have it at the same time
<apokryphos> also the recent discussions seem really promising http://www.kubuntu.org/announcements/kde-commitment.php :)
<Burgundavia> same with network-manager and the new power management
<highvoltage> that's good. i think it should've been like that since the beginning.
<Burgundavia> yes
<highvoltage> kubuntu is now #9 on distrowatch for last month view. that means 7 out of the 10 top distros are debian based.
<Burgundavia> yes
<spayne> just never tried KDE for ages
<spayne> not since 1998 IIRC which i just dipped my feet with SUSE 7.2
<highvoltage> edubuntu is at #48, it surpassed all other education aimed distro's in its first month
<Burgundavia> that is criming
<Burgundavia> wow, I can type today
<Burgundavia> I have no idea what i meant to say
<highvoltage> i wish i was using linux in '98. back then i was still using windows full time.
<highvoltage> "that is climing"
<highvoltage> "wow, I can't type today"
<highvoltage> ?
<LaserJock> I was a long time KDE user before I moved to Ubuntu
<spayne> highvoltage: i still use Windows for some applications
<spayne> highvoltage, i have just got CrossOver Office 5
<spayne> highvoltage, which looks pretty sweet
<spayne> LaserJock, and you changed to GNOME?
<highvoltage> i used kde first too, and then GNOME.
<highvoltage> it was easier for me to adjust to KDE, being a long-time windows user.
<highvoltage> but when i toyed a bit with gnome i got used to it, and found i was more productive in gnome than in kde.
<LaserJock> spayne: yes. I wanted to give the whole Gnome thing a chance
<LaserJock> spayne: there are some annoyances and some progs that I wish it had but it is really nice all the same
<spayne> GNOME just seems a little bland sometimes
<highvoltage> spayne: you can spice it up
<highvoltage> here are some screenshots of my gnome: http://jonathancarter.co.za/photies/screenshots
<LaserJock> spayne: yeah, but I find it to be somewhat less childish and more productive
<spayne> highvoltage, possibly, i don't like 'tarty; things
<highvoltage> although, there's more that i should upload at some stage.
<highvoltage> tarty?
<spayne> a british expresson
<LaserJock> I have actually grow to like the whole Ubuntu brown Human theme thing
<highvoltage> i like blue.
<LaserJock> highvoltage: I usually do but the brown has grown on me
<highvoltage> i actually customised my ubuntu interface slightly, and my phone's interface slightly, now they look more or less the same.
<spayne> my desktop as of 30 seconds ago http://www.evolutionconsultancy.com/~spayne/shots/Desktop-051105.png
<spayne> any thoughts?
<highvoltage> downloading pic... (slow connection)
<mdke> evenin all
<LaserJock> spayne: looks pretty cool to me. 
<highvoltage> still looks very standard though, not that there's something wrong with that.
<highvoltage> at least you don't have 100 icons on your desktop :)
<LaserJock> I usually put my tasklist in the top bar so I get more space for my windows
<mdke> screenshot time eh
<mdke> http://www.mdke.org/images/desktop.png
<LaserJock> oh, mdke how boring ;-)
<mdke> heh
<mdke> i love my defaults
<LaserJock> me too
<mdke> nice background tho, i saw it on art.u.c
<highvoltage> yes, i also think that's of the nicest brown wallpaper i've seen so far.
* Burgundavia is confused
<highvoltage> how so?
<Burgundavia> where did you see mdkes desktop
<mdke> pah
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-doc:mdke] : Ubuntu Doc Team - general discussion - backlog at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs | Website http://doc.ubuntu.com | Projects on http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamProjects | SVN - https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos | Observe the Ubuntu community code of conduct @ http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct
<LaserJock> mdke: the background I like to go with the brown theme is http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php?content=23009
<mdke> heh
<mdke> nice
<mdke> a bit dark for me
<Burgundavia> LaserJock, Madpilot uses the same desktop
<LaserJock> great minds think alike ;-)
<highvoltage> goodnight!
<spayne> hey mdke 
<spayne> mdke, nice and simple :-)
<spayne> Burgundavia: is it true sabdfl uses Kubuntu?
<highvoltage> spayne: no :)
<robitaille> spayne, he was talking of switching to Kubuntu on his desktop;  not sure if he has done it yet
<highvoltage> he's using gnome.
<spayne> highvoltage: http://www.kubuntu.org/announcements/kde-commitment.php
<highvoltage> i saw that.
<spayne> robitaille, wonder what he thinks
<robitaille> http://www.kdedevelopers.org/node/1574
<Burgundavia> spayne, hey is switching for the dapper release
<Burgundavia> s/hey/he
<robitaille> maybe I should try Kubuntu on my 2nd partition on my desktop.  Never been a big KDE fan, but last time I tried KDE was on an older Mandrake
<spayne> i tried KDE back on SUSE 7.2 robitaille :-)
<spayne> just downloaded Kubuntu
<apokryphos> no need for a seperate partition; they can run in harmony quite well
<Burgundavia> spayne, he is looking at what polish we can do for kubuntu
<spayne> fair enough Burgundavia
<Burgundavia> his primary focus is still gnome and ubuntu
<robitaille> apokryphos,  I want to test a clean install, away from the default breezy install used by the rest of the family.  It our home desktop :)
<apokryphos> he has it on the lappy, and mentioned he's probably switching to kubuntu on the desktop for dapper
<LaserJock> spayne: I often use both Gnome and KDE. There really is no reason you have to stick to just one
<apokryphos> robitaille: not enough space on there?
<apokryphos> LaserJock: definitely
<robitaille> apokryphos,  I usually triple-boot on that PC;  Windows/Ubuntu Stable/Ubuntu Unstable.  But I'm thinking of replacing the now unused Hoary partition by Kubuntu.
<apokryphos> You can, of course; I'd just find it weird -- I doubt you'd ever do that on another distro. Just that this one has seperate ISOs =)
<apokryphos> I always use different partitions for different distros; not for just different DEs :P
<LaserJock> I am starting to use chroots more but that doesn't help with testing installers though
<apokryphos> s/desktop/lappy/ (and visa versa), above. :-O
<mdke> heh
<mdke> now mark is saying that he'll use kubuntu, it will become fashionable
* LaserJock goes and looks for his Kubuntu disk ;-)
<apokryphos> mdke: it wasn't already? ;-)
<mdke> apokryphos, even more fashionable :)
#ubuntu-doc 2005-11-11
* rob^ looks in
<Burgundavia> hey rob^ 
<rob^> hi Burgundavia 
<Burgundavia> rob^, I like the idea of StartingWithUbuntu
<Burgundavia> did you a specific goal for it?
<rob^> well mainly an advanced users guide, for those switching from another linux to Ubuntu
<Burgundavia> ok
<rob^> just a quick overview, but yeah it needs a bit more work
<Burgundavia> do you want me to work on it?
<rob^> just ran out of time
* mdke looks
<rob^> if you want, sure
<Burgundavia> I will try over the next few weeks
<rob^> I think it was SwitchingToUbuntu..
<Burgundavia> yes
<mdke> looks cool
<mdke> synaptic is in the menu btw
<Burgundavia> we might want to split it into FromAnotherDistro and FromWindows and FromOSX
* rob^ looks.. I don't see it
* rob^ is blind
<Burgundavia> those were ideas for subpages
<rob^> Burgundavia, yeah might be a good idea
<Burgundavia> let me throw some ideas on those
<rob^> sure
<Burgundavia> not likely to happen before later next week
<rob^> heh
<Burgundavia> today is the last day at UBZ
<Burgundavia> and I fly home tomorrow and start work again on monday
<rob^> yay
<Kinnison> Yep, Monday is the first day of LaunchpadBelowZero as it were :-)
<Burgundavia> yes
<Kinnison> Except we get to move up to floor two and have natural light
<Burgundavia> you lucky bastard
<mdke> cheating!
<mdke> natural light is cheating
<robitaille> who needs natural light?
<rob^> natural what?
<rob^> I've heard of that..
<Kinnison> rob^: a specific subset of the electromagnetic radiation emitted from the big ball of burning hydrogen in the sky.
<robitaille> Hopefully there is more natural light in Montreal than in Victoria these days...
<Burgundavia> is quite cloudy today
<Burgundavia> somewhat fuggy
<rob^> theres a big ball of burning hydrogen in the sky? what sky?
<Burgundavia> s/fuggy/foggy
<mdke> rob^, btw, you have a "sudo" group on your system?
<rob^> yes
<mdke> mine doesn't
<mdke> strange
<rob^> you need to tick "show all groups/users"
<Burgundavia> it is an admin group
<mdke> i'm looking in /etc/passwd
<mdke> mine is admin too
<rob^> I've got admin and sudo
<Burgundavia> it should be admin for all hoary/breezy
<mdke> rob^, what did you install at?
<Burgundavia> warty has the specific user in the sudo file
<rob^> warty
<mdke> ahhh
<rob^> I haven't reinstalled in ages..
<mdke> heh
* rob^ loves dist-upgrade :)
<mdke> strange that it didn't update that when you dist-upgraded
<rob^> yeah
<robitaille> mdke,  it was an issue ay back when.  I vaguely remember an email on the -devel list
<rob^> well feel free to update it with whats current..
<mdke> yeah i changed it
<robitaille> something about it was too difficult to deal with while doing a dist-upgrade
<Burgundavia> upgrading from release to release will not add any user to a new group
<Burgundavia> which that change would require
<Burgundavia> that is a policy decision
<robitaille> I wonder  what else is "broken" on my desktop; I have been dist-upgrading it since a pre-release of Warty.
<mdke> i was thinking
<mdke> we don't use the ubuntu website enough on the wiki
<Burgundavia> yes
<rob^> yeah
<Burgundavia> but the current ubuntu website is a godawful mess, to be honest
<rob^> heh
<rob^> just a bit
<mdke> we're nearly finished moving it to moin :)
<mdke> this would be a cool page to use
<mdke> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/ubuntu/components/
* rob^ hasn't gotten any replies to his email to the devel list about gai yet
<Burgundavia> rob^, it is not going to happen
<rob^> maybe they are all still hung over..
<Burgundavia> I spoke with several people about the diea
<Burgundavia> jeff waugh, etc.
<mdke> rob^, i think you can make it clearer that you are suggesting a very minor feature improvement, not a major one
<rob^> quite frankly gai is a pain in the butt
<mdke> yes, it is a poor app atm
<rob^> mdke, I thought I'd done that
<Burgundavia> it shows much promise, but unfortunately lacks promise
<Burgundavia> s/promise/polish
<mdke> i would say it has polish, but not promise :D
<mdke> it really needs to find a way to make all packages easily available
<mdke> without wasting users' time
<rob^> yep
<mdke> i'll comment on the thread i think
<robitaille> Burgundavia,  so what they told you: the gai  we curentlt have is what we'll have for dapper?
<robitaille> for anything else use synaptic?
<Burgundavia> pretty much
<rob^> I thought they want to kill synaptic?
<Burgundavia> the repo dialog is going to get a redesign
<robitaille> we're getting mixed message it seems....
<Burgundavia> synaptic maybe be hidden, but still installed
<mdke> it's early days, we'll get a clarification I'm sure
<Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MenusRevisited
<Burgundavia> there is no spec for the kind of improvements we are looking for in gai
<Burgundavia> thus it is not going to happen
<mdke> specs are god!
<mdke> presumably a spec won't be necessary for every bugfix?
<Burgundavia> no, but that is fairly major changes
<robitaille> so another god:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DapperDesktopPlan   "Top panel icons   We will remove the Help icon, but keep the web browser and email icons."
<Burgundavia> the non-app stuff
<robitaille> so the help icon is going away from the panel
<mdke> robitaille, i think that's fair, people probably won't use that icon
<Burgundavia> robitaille, yes, it is
<LaserJock> rob^: I talked to Unfrgiven about the packaging guide and he will have a svn repo up shortly
<Burgundavia> LaserJock, it should go into ours
<Burgundavia> LaserJock, I spoke with MOTU's about it
<robitaille> the help icon is generally the first one that I remove on a new install.  It's nice to see that I was right :)
<LaserJock> yes, but once he has a svn repo can't we just take if from there and add it to the docteam one?
<Burgundavia> LaserJock, why not just push it directly into ours?
<Burgundavia> that way we never deal with the two repos issue
<mdke> +1
<LaserJock> Burgundavia: I don't know he just said that he would have get back to me soon. Maybe if he heard it from you.
<Burgundavia> LaserJock, I just pinged him
<LaserJock> Burgundavia: seems he has been idle on irc for 2 days. Email seemed to work today pretty well.
<rob^> LaserJock, great!
<Burgundavia> ok
<LaserJock> this is what he told me:
<LaserJock> I currently do not have an svn repository but will set one up shortly.
<LaserJock> > > Can I get back to you in the next few days with the details?
<mdke> best thing is to ask him to push it to one of us to insert in the docteam repo
<Burgundavia> can you email him back and say hey, just give us the file and we will push it into our repo
<rob^> ymm yeah just use ours :)
<Burgundavia> then we can build it and get it onto help.ubuntu.com
<rob^> I wonder if gai is done in python? If it is I'm half tempted to do the change myself and submit a patch..
<Burgundavia> yes, it is written in python
<Burgundavia> and patches might be accepted
<rob^> hmm] 
<jdub> `
* rob^ checks out the gnome cvs
<jdub> ````````quebecistani keyboard hell!
<Burgundavia> jdub, you having fun with your brandnew laptop?
<Kinnison> jdub: poor you
<robitaille> jdub,  french-canadian keyboard problem?  :)
<jdub> oh man
<jdub> this is so much crack :)
<robitaille> I always refused to get one of these keyboard...and always stayed with us-keyboard style.
<robitaille> but I have been know to swear a few time at my UK keyboard on my canonical laptop
<robitaille> s/know/known
<rob^> wow, the dg is so pretty 
<highvoltage> dg?
<rob^> desktop guide
* rob^ got interlinking xincluded references working
<highvoltage> where is it? i'd like to do an adaptation for Edubuntu.
<robitaille> wow...Corey is now a movie star   http://foodfight.org/movies/Ubuntu%20Fanpeople/
<rob^> our svn repo under /ubuntu/desktopguide/C/
<rob^> heh
<Madpilot> robitaille: we'll have to give him a hard time about that when he gets back... 
<rob^> could someone else try making the dg and see if it all works?
<rob^> mainly I want to make sure the xrefs work after I xincluded everything :)
<rob^> it seems to work here..
<robitaille> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RideTheWildElmo        I guess we cannot delete since jdub link to it from  his blog :)
<Madpilot> um...??
<rob^> just ask him about it :)
<Madpilot> if you haven't already, grab Mark Shuttleworth's video from that Fanpeople page - it's amusing...
<highvoltage> i'm downloading all of them now... :)
<rob^> when did mark grow his hair?
<Madpilot> "My name is Mark, and I'm just some geek from South Africa..."
<highvoltage> i think since he came back from space :)
<rob^> heh
<rob^> most likely
<robitaille> there was an article last fall in a sa online magazine commenting on his various air styles.  
<robitaille> s/air/hair
<highvoltage> there was an article in a national newspaper as well.
<highvoltage> I think it was in Die Burger
<highvoltage> and the Argus too.
<robitaille> one of the first google link about his hair bring this:  http://www.netsplit.com/events/2005/lca-miniconfs/lca-miniconfs-016.html
<Madpilot> ha
<mdke> rob^, yo?
<jsgotangco> lol someone almost made a wiki boo boo on the FrontPage
<highvoltage> jsgotangco
<jsgotangco> hi mr afrikaans
<mdke> crazy random deletion of the frontpage ;)
<jsgotangco> hey mdke 
<mdke> hello
<highvoltage> hi jsgotangco, sorry, got distracted here.
<jsgotangco> :)
* jsgotangco is busy jacking up lp karma
* highvoltage too
<highvoltage> mhuhahahahahaha!
<highvoltage> we'll never get kharma this cheap again.
<highvoltage> we might as well take advantage of it.
<jsgotangco> i got up to 517 in just 2 hours of lp work in rosetta
<highvoltage> wow.
<jsgotangco> it seems to give 1 karma point for every line
<highvoltage> yep, i think they'll bring that down though, like 1 point for every 10 translations.
<highvoltage> i think 1 for each line is a bit easy.
<highvoltage> if you look how little bug management currently counts in comparison.
<highvoltage> jsgotangco: when are you starting with your new job again?
<jsgotangco> highvoltage: tommorow
<jsgotangco> not expecting much on the first day though, just a couple of hi and hellos
<highvoltage> nice.
<jsgotangco> I'll see how it pans out in a few days :)
<mdke> cool
<mdke> what sort of job?
<jsgotangco> well its linux admin stuff for an au-based MVNO
<mdke> great
<jsgotangco> i accepted the job because it'll be my first exporsure to carrier-grade linux
<mdke> MVNO?
<jsgotangco> mdke: think ringtones, games, logos, etc. services for mobile carriers
<mdke> aha
<mdke> cool
<jsgotangco> i dunno what to expect at the moment, my boss looks cool though (Indian)
<mdke> well you'll have fun I'm sure
<jsgotangco> mdke: thanks i do hope so too (and fix this career of mine)
<mdke> :)
<jsgotangco> at least i got a linux-related job finally
<highvoltage> :)
<highvoltage> i quit my last computer-related jobs, yelling i'd rather clean toilets for a living than work with computers again.
<jsgotangco> is there such thing as karma ranking in lp?
<highvoltage> s/jobs/job
<jsgotangco> let's say top 10
<highvoltage> there's a top5 on the front page
<highvoltage> so we'll have to wait until we have 10000+ karma
<jsgotangco> i don't think we'll get past jordi
<highvoltage> jordi has been idle the past while. someone mentioned that he's not feeling to well.
<highvoltage> but i think you're right, we won't get past him.
<highvoltage> 20000 is totally doable, though.
<jsgotangco> highvoltage: our next project should be publishing an LP tips & tricks and blackhat guide hehe
<highvoltage> hehe
<jsgotangco> "how to get instant karma without really trying"
<highvoltage> no, we're too 1337 for that :)
* jsgotangco gets the feeling that a lot of xubuntu stuff in svn are upstream
<jsgotangco> hi bhuvan
<bhuvan> hello
<bhuvan> jsgotangco: ?
<jsgotangco> bhuvan: nice one on serverguide
<bhuvan> ok
<bhuvan> jsgotangco, hope you meant w.u.c/ServerGuide
<jsgotangco> bhuvan: yes
<jsgotangco> good night
<bhuvan> rob^: ping  
#ubuntu-doc 2005-11-12
<nickrud> anyone awake?
<bhuvan> nickrud, yes
<nickrud> I've been working a bit on the restrictedformats page, I was wondering if someone would take a look. http://pinutos.dyndns.org/MyWiki/RestrictedFormats
<nickrud> mostly the media stuff at the moment. I've kinda changed the focus a bit
<wezzer> looks pretty nice
<nickrud> I'm thinking that more focus on actual use, rather than the abstract way it's been is a way to go.
<nickrud> plus, it's good practice 
<bhuvan> nickrud, sounds nice over all
<bhuvan> nickrud, but what's the reason behind removing gstreamer0.8-ffmpeg
<nickrud> none, that's one reason it needs a bit of proofreading
<nickrud> when I cut and pasted, I pasted over it, I guess and missed it
<rob^> mdke, yo homie!
<nickrud> this, java, and a few other things have bothered me for months. I think focusing on usage will slow down the changes to them
<nickrud> plus, no more marillat
<bhuvan> rob^: i'm thinking of preparing the template for server guide based on current wiki spec
<rob^> the xml template?
<bhuvan> let me know if you have already done or have other plans?
<rob^> there is a template on the wiki page
<rob^> just needs more love
<bhuvan> yeah, current guide is fully based on faqguide. 
<bhuvan> we must remove couple of sections and make it compatible with w.u.c/ServerGuide
<rob^> kind of disregard the faq guide, have a look at wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerGuide
<rob^> bhuvan, sure that is all part of it
<rob^> for instance I have removed all of the server stuff from the desktop guide already that was included in the faq guide
<bhuvan> ok
<bhuvan> but clarify, do we really need getting started, where can i download ubuntu, etc.
<rob^> as a reference check out the bsd user guide
<rob^> and feel free to use things from the unreleased and not finished Ubuntu user guide found in our repo
<bhuvan> ok
<bhuvan> but intended audience are admin/experienced users, right ?
<rob^> yes
<rob^> but still make it accessable to everyone with a little knowledge
<bhuvan> ok
<bhuvan> so, just to be clear, we need not remove topics, but we may add new topics based on w.u.c/ServerGuide ?
<rob^> feel free to change the template on ServerGuide how you see fit
<bhuvan> ok. i already added couple of topics in ServerGuide
<rob^> when your happy let me or mdke know and we'll take a look
* rob^ did a brain dump on serverguide the other day that got it to what you saw initially
* rob^ also has to prepare a presentation on the ubuntu doc team for my lug meeting tonight :)
<rob^> grr some nob has got my email address and thinks it is some kind of support service..
<bhuvan> :)
<Madpilot> rob^: I got an email like that today as well - I'd been the last person to edit the wiki's scanner page, it seems...
<rob^> idiots
<Madpilot> <shrug> just a bit confused...
<rob^> I even gave the guy links to the forums, irc and help.ubuntu.com and the wiki and he still kept asking me stupid questions..
* rob^ thinks he will start to filter it if it gets bad
<Madpilot> OK, that might actually be idiocy. My guy just asked one question about the article he thought I'd written; I sent him back to the forums & told him a bit about how the wiki works..
<rob^> and just not reply :0
<rob^> :)
<rob^> my reply: "You will need to register for an account on http://www.ubuntuforums.org/
<rob^> and post it yourself.."
<rob^> (yes this was after I have given him that link twice already)
<rob^> (in the last 30 minutes)
<Madpilot> bleh...
<Madpilot> was this via email or IRC?
<rob^> email
<rob^> direct
<rob^> ie to my email account, not via a list
<Madpilot> bleh again...
<rob^> he must have gotten my email from the wiki or something
<Madpilot> yeah...
<Madpilot> contemplating removing my email addy from the wiki - Ubuntu folks who want it can get it thru Launchpad
<rob^> hmm
<mdke> rob^, ping?
<rob^> mdke pong
<mdke> aha
<mdke> rob^, get my PM?
<rob^> no
<rob^> brb
<mdke> rob^, i gtg to work, i just wanted to know what you've done to the desktop guide with all that olink, perhaps you could mail the list about it?
<rob^> back
<rob^> sure I was planning to, just haven't had the time
<rob^> I have xincluded everything, the database and olink stuff was to get the xrefs to work
<rob^> in the desktop guide at least
<mdke> didn't they work before?
<rob^> when you split things into multiple documents with xinclude you need to create a database of xref, olinks etc
<mdke> right
<mdke> it has made the makefile really complicated...
<rob^> heh yeah
<mdke> i'm concerned because don't forget someone is gonna have to copy all that stuff for every language it get's translated to...
<rob^> its not that hard to understand once you get the hang of it
<mdke> and alter each path
<rob^> sure, I'm just testing a few things, maybe I'll use a variable or something to make the makefile simpler
<mdke> there is a database file in the root of trunk too
<rob^> yes, the olink db
<rob^> not sure if it will be needed 
<mdke> why is it in trunk?
<rob^> because it represents the html build directory format, it would be universal for all documents if we used olinks
<mdke> ok i gtg now
<rob^> it could be moved into /build or /common and the directories fixed up, but I'm not sure if we need it
<mdke> we can talk later
<rob^> ok
<rob^> i gtg to lug meeting anyway
<rob^> bye
<bhuvan> mdke: ping
<jsgotangco> hi all
<highvoltage> hi jsgotangco 
<highvoltage> how's the new job? sitting on irc already? :)
<jsgotangco> lol
<jsgotangco> i arrived home a few hours ago
<jsgotangco> its pretty much start-up mode atm
<jsgotangco> everything in chaos
<highvoltage> oh, right. sorry, i tend to forget about timezones :)
<jsgotangco> lol incidentally, the head of the company is from zimbabwe who relocated to au
<jsgotangco> kind of reminded me of sabdfl
* jsgotangco it seems african and me have some sort of destiny
<jsgotangco> he saw me instralling ubuntu and he said "hey i know that word"
<jsgotangco> he has no idea about th e linux distro though
<jjesse> morning
<jjesse> lots of changes to svn since friday when i left :)
<jsgotangco> hey jjesse 
<jjesse> morning jsgotangco 
<jjesse> just finished reading the log of the meeting on friday
<jsgotangco> ahhh
<jsgotangco> chaotic if you ask me
<jjesse> me too, couldn't follow things very well, was wondering if anything really got decided
<jsgotangco> jjesse: do you want to continue the QuickTour for Dapper or do we focus on a new doc?
<jsgotangco> jjesse: i mean QuickGuide
<jjesse> we talked about doing the Quicktour
<apokryphos> jjesse: any list of docs to do? I figure I might as well get my feet soaked now =)
<jjesse> apokrphos check out wiki.ubuntu.com/KubuntuDocs
<apokryphos> ack, sorry about that
<jjesse> apokryphos: check KubuntuDocs for the list
<apokryphos> jjesse: thanks; I'll take a look
* apokryphos is out for a bit now
* mdke checks out dapper
#ubuntu-doc 2005-11-13
<judax> quiet in here tonight
* mdke is struggling with dapper
<judax> you installed dapper?
<mdke> sort of
<judax> you are a brave and adventurous man
<mdke> bored
* LaserJock is less brave. He installed dapper in a chroot 
<mdke> it will enable me to learn a bit of dpkg tho
<judax> yes, being bored can lead to some fun
<mdke> :)
<mdke> judax, sorry, diconnected, did you say how you were?
* mdke wanders off
<Kinnison> ciao
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-doc:Burgundavia] : Ubuntu Doc Team - general discussion - backlog at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs | Website http://doc.ubuntu.com | Projects on http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamProjects | SVN - https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos | Please observe the Ubuntu community code of conduct @ http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-doc:Burgundavia] : Ubuntu Doc Team - general discussion - backlog at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs | Website http://doc.ubuntu.com | Projects on http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamProjects | SVN - https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos | Please observe the Ubuntu community code of conduct @ http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct
<Burgundavia> bon soir all
<Burgundavia> grr, sorry for the spam
<mgalvin> hi Burgundavia
<Burgundavia> is there an ubuntu marketing channel
<Burgundavia> Madpilot, ping
<robitaille> Burgundavia,  not that I know.
<Burgundavia> grr
<Burgundavia> had a good chat with Malcolm, the canonical marketing guy
<Burgundavia> at ubz, that is
<robitaille> Burgundavia,  the ubuntuforum group do their weekly meeting on #spreadmeeting  ...
<Burgundavia> grr
<Burgundavia> we have official channels for meeting
<robitaille> Burgundavia,  do you know why my name is in  ExampleContent in the example video section?
<Burgundavia> cause you have good ogg vides
<Burgundavia> videos
<Burgundavia> of the family, lik
<robitaille> Burgundavia,  I told them to do them on ubuntu-meeting, but they turned me down   http://www.ubuntupeople.com/file/forums/viewtopic.php?t=29&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=10
<robitaille> Burgundavia,  oh that's why.  I was surprised to see my name in there :)
<Burgundavia> as long as you don't mind
<robitaille> nah; I'll figure out with jdub something to do.     it's a interesting  spec.  A lot of cool little things in there to do.
<Burgundavia> I need to find our create some "this is an ms office doc that you can open in openoffice"
<Burgundavia> how big is the insert in a dvd case?
<Burgundavia> the paper cover thingy
<Burgundavia> never mind
* Burgundavia is busy adapting the existing cd cover to a dvd cover
<Madpilot> Burgundavia: pong
<bhuvan> rob^: ping
<Burgundavia> Madpilot, I was thinking about getting Ubuntu CDs into the GVPL catalogue
<Burgundavia> Madpilot, any idea how easy that is?
<Madpilot> you mean circulating copies of the LiveCDs or something?
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> in a dvd case
<Madpilot> cool idea - we do have a CDROM collection, remember
<Burgundavia> it was an idea that nelson of the osi raised
<Burgundavia> at UBZ
<Madpilot> cool
<Burgundavia> so I figured I could trial at GVPL before seeing if I could get a whole lot of libraries across Canada to do it
<Madpilot> I'm not actually sure who's in charge of the CDROM collection at Central; at the branches it's the Branch Heads, of course
<Burgundavia> the reason I thought DVD case was then we could put a little book inside as well
<Burgundavia> about Ubuntu Canada and where to get extra help
<Madpilot> have you seen the handout PDF I've been working on?
<Burgundavia> the one with the huge block of text?
<Madpilot> yeah
<Madpilot> english one side, french other
<Burgundavia> nice idea, but implementation, imho
<Madpilot> it is a big block of text, isn't it?
<Madpilot> it's a straight copy of the ubuntu.ca wiki's text
<Burgundavia> ouch
<Madpilot> http://ubuntu.ca/wiki/index.php/CD_Insert
<Burgundavia> I have most of a DVD cover already done
<Burgundavia> just needs to back cover text and the side text
<Madpilot> email me a pic?
<Burgundavia> http://img119.imageshack.us/my.php?image=screenshotubuntudvdcoversvgink.png
<Madpilot> looks good - make the black lines much skinnier
<Burgundavia> in random other news, I am strongly considering dropping firefox as my browser entirely
<Madpilot> for epiph?
<Burgundavia> the black lines are going to be gone, they are merely guides
<Madpilot> j
<Madpilot> bleh... "let's hit random keys" :)
<Burgundavia> I use epiphany at work and on my laptop
<Burgundavia> I have started to really like the bookmarks
<Burgundavia> and search/address bar in one
<Madpilot> I'll have to try it at some point - can it import Opera bookmark files?
<Burgundavia> should be able to
<Burgundavia> it does bookmarks very differently though
<Burgundavia> it is not folders, they are tags
<Burgundavia> and you can search them simply by typing in the address bar
<Madpilot> cool...
<Burgundavia> either by tag name or bookmark name
<Madpilot> Opera does inline search inside the bookmark panel already - Epiph has just eliminated the bookmark panel, I guess
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> ff can do something similar to O in a sidebar
<Madpilot> meh... it still has seperate Reload & Stop buttons - I've always liked how O just used one button for both roles
<Burgundavia> I hated that
<Burgundavia> well, I just dropped #ubuntu
<Madpilot> you never have to use both functions at once, that I've found - why not have them on the same button?
<Burgundavia> I found I used to use both
* robitaille will have to seriously try epiphany one of these days...
<Burgundavia> robitaille, try it on your work machine or your laptop
<robitaille> my work machine is Mandrake 10.1 :)
<robitaille> I'll give it a try on my laptop
<robitaille> But tonight the experiment on the laptop is to install Kubuntu for the 1st time
<Madpilot> Epiph has the same over-simplified font choices that FF suffers from - worse, even
<Burgundavia> Madpilot, same rendering engine
<Burgundavia> but I have found epip to be much lighter on ram/cpu
* Madpilot is burrowing deep into Epiph's preferences menus, and feeling rather limited...
<Burgundavia> especially the latter
<Burgundavia> less is more, but there are few things that would be nice
<Madpilot> I'm currently running eight virtual desktops, all full. I can't be bothered to worry about one app's RAM/CPU usage ;)
<Burgundavia> I really notice FF's
<Burgundavia> it is worse than pretty much everything else I run
<robitaille> it reminds me of the arguments for using Phoenix instead of Mozilla few years back:  leaner, less ram, etc :)
<Madpilot> Opera chucks up 100% CPU usage on oversized pages sometimes, but so does FF...
<Burgundavia> never had epip do that, except for flash stuff
<Burgundavia> robitaille, I suspect that the overhead is the XUL stuff
<Madpilot> ... simplistic popup handling too - no "Allow only selected popups", just "Yes/No"...
<Burgundavia> yes, another nasty bug
<Burgundavia> in other random news, I am installing Vector Linux on a laptop for the Ben Isitt campaign tomorrow
<Madpilot> what's Vector Linux, and why aren't they getting Ubuntu?
<Burgundavia> the laptop is a P100
<Burgundavia> vector linux is designed for extremely lowend systems
<Madpilot> ouch... never mind :)
<Burgundavia> current has w95 on it
<robitaille> to follow the theme of the day on ubuntu-ca, what is Ben's position on foss :)
<Burgundavia> well, they had BSD running in the office, amongst the windows machines
<Burgundavia> it is all about spending less money on IT in general
<robitaille> I widh my office at the same position (spend less money on IT...)
<robitaille> s/widh/wish
<Burgundavia> while on the plane I read a report from becta about english schools saving money on foss
<Burgundavia> welcome back Madpilot 
<Burgundavia> funny how we are with 5 clicks of each other, but end up on different servers
<Madpilot> I didn't go anywhere, you did
<Madpilot> oddities abound
<Burgundavia> from each person perspective, the other person quite
<Burgundavia> s/quite/quit
<Madpilot> yeah, I know
<Madpilot> so F5 doen't work for Force Reload in Epiph - does in FF, Opera & (I think) IE...
<Burgundavia> robitaille, Madpilot join #funnyatwork for a second
<Burgundavia> robitaille, you seen this? http://img119.imageshack.us/my.php?image=screenshotubuntudvdcoversvgink.png
<robitaille> Burgundavia,  nice
<Burgundavia> it is the beginning of a DVD cover
<Burgundavia> this was a good talk at UBZ
<Burgundavia> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/evaluate-ubuntu-guide
<Burgundavia> we talked about what we documented and how the system could improve to eliminate the docs
<Burgundavia> wow, the vector linux iso is 390 megs
<highvoltage> vector linux is nice (or it was at least the last time i tried it)
<highvoltage> back then the iso was 210 MB :)
<highvoltage> and the only desktop environment it had was xfce.
* Burgundavia notes that here in Ubuntu-land, we recently went to 700mb cds
<Burgundavia> highvoltage, you are shuttleworth foundation, no?
<Madpilot> the Breezy ISOs were actually slightly smaller than the Hoary ones...
<highvoltage> Burgundavia: well, ne and a bunch of other people, yes :)
<Burgundavia> highvoltage, indeed
<highvoltage> s/ne/me
<Madpilot> actually, I'm wrong... all the Breezy ISOs are slightly larger than their Hoary versions... nevermind...
<Burgundavia> and for dapper, there are no language packs left to boot...
<robitaille> one of these days they will have to remove OOo to save space  on the CDs :)
<Burgundavia> indeed
<Burgundavia> had a good "discussion" with hub, the upstream of abiword about OpenDoc support
<Burgundavia> he doesn't see it as a big priority
<robitaille> he should; OpenDoc is very much in the news these days
<Madpilot> see also MS vs Mass...
<robitaille> I always assumed if you can support OOo format, OpenDoc shouldn't be very far behind from a technical point of view
<Burgundavia> he and the rest of the abiword docs need to read an essay I read called "users don't care about your program, they care about their data"
<Madpilot> does abiword use OOo1 formats?
<Burgundavia> no
<Burgundavia> abiword and gnumeric use their own hacked up format
<robitaille> I really want to do my next talk at work about MS vs Mass, as an example of the potential use of foss in a government setting
<Burgundavia> which OO doesn't support
<Madpilot> Burgundavia: got a URL for that essay?
<Burgundavia> nope
<Burgundavia> ah, here
<Burgundavia> http://www.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=04/09/23/182216
<poningru> could have sworn abiword now supports open documents
<poningru> err the oasis thingie
<Burgundavia> the suppor tis very basic
<poningru> ah ic
<Burgundavia> and I doubt it will be default
<Burgundavia> when the support is their, I am going to file a bug stating "OpenDoc format should be the default save format for abiword"
<Burgundavia> and watch hub explode
<Burgundavia> s/their/there
<highvoltage> Burgundavia: cool :)
<Madpilot> odt is great - a friend sent me an MS .doc that was about 350Kb, resaved as odt it was about 17Kb...
<highvoltage> i'll back you on that.
<robitaille> sounds like a bounty to bring Abiword within a year at the level of OOo Writer, and use it as the default for Ubuntu.
<Burgundavia> yes
<robitaille> (support for full OpenDoc)
<highvoltage> Burgundavia: i saw you on a ubz video, you look much younger on video than on a previous photo i saw on the web :)
<Burgundavia> highvoltage, I am only 23!
<poningru> only?
<poningru> thats old
<robitaille> highvoltage,  he is young!
<poningru> geezer
<poningru> :)
<highvoltage> well, on the photo i saw, i think you looked like 35 or something... i'll track it down again some time.
* robitaille feels old....
* poningru is 21
* robitaille is 36
<poningru> wont turn 22 till next september
<highvoltage> i felt ancient when i turned 21
<highvoltage> i think i'll feel better when i turn 24.
<Burgundavia> highvoltage, my hackergotchi?
<poningru> yeah /me feels that right now
* highvoltage checks
<Burgundavia> highvoltage, top of planet.u.c right now
<highvoltage> yes, i don't think you have a jackergotchi: https://launchpad.net/people/cburger
<highvoltage> Burgundavia: yes, that's the one. you look older on planet :)
<highvoltage> (and more canadian)
<Burgundavia> JaneW and marilize thought I was funnier and happier than my hackergotchi lead them to believe
<robitaille> I wonder how a canadian looks like :)
<highvoltage> robitaille: on top of planet, currently :)
<Madpilot> your hackergotchi looks slightly psychotic, actually...
<Madpilot> :)
<robitaille> highvoltage,  I live in the same town than Burgundavia :)
<highvoltage> robitaille: oh, look outside then ;)
<Burgundavia> highvoltage, in case you missed it, Madpilot is my older brother, and he, myself and robitaille all live in Victoria
<highvoltage> ah yes. my memory is already going!
<highvoltage> when is your birthday?
<Burgundavia> mine is Aug 18th
<robitaille> but some people think I don't sound canadian enough.    Must be the french canadian accent
<highvoltage> the only time we see canada on TV in south africa is when the americans make fun of them.
<highvoltage> or when that fat guy with the glasses makes a film about guns.
<Madpilot> Michael Moore?
<highvoltage> yes, Michael Moore.
<Madpilot> highvoltage: you're in RSA?
<highvoltage> yep.
<Burgundavia> marilize said to me on monday or tuesday "burger, thats a common name in south africa"
<Madpilot> cool. I was actually born in Cape Town; my father (and Burgundavia's) is from SA... small world...
<Burgundavia> to which I replied "well, I am half-south african"
<highvoltage> cool!
<Burgundavia> highvoltage, you speak/write afrikaans?
<highvoltage> yep.
<highvoltage> and translate on launchpad.
<highvoltage> afrikaans is my first language.
<Burgundavia> somebody in #inkscape is looking for a dutch person, figured you might be able to muddle your way through
<Burgundavia> or not
<Burgundavia> they need a native speaker
<highvoltage> check how i'm raking up those karma: https://launchpad.net/people/jonathan
<highvoltage> dutch is a bit tough... let me try just for fun.
<robitaille> finally installed and tried Kubuntu for the first time ever.  It's so blue... 
<Burgundavia> so if FC4
<highvoltage> see you guys later...
<Burgundavia> had my two seat mates on the plane looking at my laptop
<robitaille> I used to like blue in my days of RHL/FC1.  But a year of brown tones has cured that it seems
<Burgundavia> as I was wearing my new Ubuntu t-shirt and my laptop now has an Ubuntu sticker on it
<Madpilot> so did you do some U evangalism?
<Burgundavia> no
<Burgundavia> I was feeling sick and had no U cds on me
<Burgundavia> I have to crash
<Burgundavia> see you all tomorrow night
<rob^> bhuvan, pong
<rob^> been at work all day
<bhuvan> rob^: ping
<bhuvan> mdke: ping
<Madpilot> bhuvan: you missed rob^, he left about an hour ago
<bhuvan> yeah, i saw his PM :)
<Madpilot> k
<bhuvan> rob^: ping :)
<Qrious> Hello people.
<Qrious> I'm hoping to contribute to Ubuntu somehow & thought helping out the docteam might be an idea. Is there anything I can help with?
<Qrious> well don't all jump at once.
<jdub> :)
<jdub> Qrious: probably a bad time
<jdub> Qrious: i'd suggesdt joining the ailing list and introducing ourself
<jdub> yourself
<Qrious> k, guess I'll try that
<Qrious> thanks man
<Qrious> later then
<rob^> ?
<bhuvan> rob^: free ?
<rob^> bhuvan, for the next 5 minutes
<bhuvan> ok
<rob^> whats up?
<bhuvan> just a quick chat! can you let me know the status of generic/Makefile patch ?
<bhuvan> look into it when you get some time, fine
<rob^> to the best of my knowledge it hasn't been applied
<bhuvan> yeah
<rob^> there wasn't an entry for the server guide in /ubuntu ?
<rob^> hi jsgotangco 
<bhuvan> it's in generic/serverguide
<jsgotangco> heya
<jjesse> morinng team :)
<rob^> morn jjesse 
<jsgotangco> hello
<rob^> hmm bhuvan that patch failed for the makefile..
<bhuvan> ?
<rob^> patching file Makefile
<rob^> Hunk #1 succeeded at 35 (offset 2 lines).
<rob^> Hunk #2 FAILED at 73.
<rob^> 1 out of 2 hunks FAILED -- saving rejects to file Makefile.rej
<bhuvan> can you try 'patch -p0 < Makefile.diff' from generic/serverguide/C dir ?
<bhuvan> i also suggest you do 'svn update' before applying this patch..
<bhuvan> reason being, mdke have made couple of changes in that Makefile just before i prepared this patch
<rob^> done the makefile
<bhuvan> rob^, ok
<rob^> bhuvan, all three have been done now
<bhuvan> rob^, wonderful, thankx
<rob^> np
<mgalvin> hey rob^
<rob^> hi mgalvin 
<mgalvin> we will certainly be as open as possible and keep you guys in the loop
<rob^> nice, thanks :)
<rob^> I'm sure you will mgalvin, I just have been chasing up specs a bit on there lately is all
<mgalvin> should be nice to be able to have docs that say, hey you need a web server, start with this, sudo apt-get install ubuntu-instant-web-server to act as a base
<rob^> yeah I agree
<jjesse> congrats rob^  on membership :)
<rob^> thanks jjesse 
<jjesse> per sabdfl question on the meeting, what is holding up docs being translated thru rossetta?
<Belutz> rob^, congrats :-)
<rob^> jjesse, nothing now
<jjesse> but there was something?
<rob^> just lack of people translating I think
<rob^> well I made a couple of changes to the Desktop Guide that will help lift the burden of translating a bit
<rob^> for dapper anyway
<rob^> I sent an email to the list a few hours ago about it
<rob^> anyway, time for bed
<rob^> night
<Burgundavia> ugh, I forgot to reset my alarm clock for daylight savings time
<jsgotangco> hehe
<jsgotangco> anyone favor adding bhuvan to ubuntu-doc lp team?
* Kinnison tickles Burgundavia 
<jsgotangco> and request svn access to elmo?
<Burgundavia> sounds good to me
* rob^ looks in quickly
<rob^> jsgotangco, +1
<jsgotangco> ok Option C now practiced in ubuntu-doc :D
<jsgotangco> mdke?
<jsgotangco> mdke_: ?
<jsgotangco> jjesse: ?
<bhuvan> jsgotangco: can we post details of CCM to our mailing list, fix up some time to propose leaderships ?
<jsgotangco> leaderships?
<bhuvan> yeah, as per ccm, we must propose 3 leaders on behalf of our team ?
<bhuvan> who can nominate ubuntu members to cc in future ?
<jjesse> hmm there isn't a kubuntu-docs package in rosetta (that I can find) anyone know how to add it?
<Burgundavia> whiprush, push to the fridges new feed http://lxer.com/module/newswire/view/47135/index.html
<jsgotangco> Belutz: !!!!!!
<Belutz> jsgotangco, !!!!!! :-)
<highvoltage> Belutz: congrats. i'm up soon. wish me lick!
<highvoltage> s/lick/luck
<Belutz> good luck highvoltage 
<jsgotangco> highvoltage: -1 for jacking up on lp karma
<jsgotangco> hehehe
<Belutz> lol
<highvoltage> :(
<jsgotangco> muhahahha
<Belutz> wew... i'm so excited
<jsgotangco> Belutz: nice one i hope to go back to jakarta someday
<jsgotangco> and meet up with you
<Belutz> you're very welcome :-)
<Belutz> i would like to see edubuntu to be suitable for elementary schools in here
<Belutz> got to do a lot of translating
<jsgotangco> yeah bring on the karma machine
<Belutz> yup
<Belutz> may the good karma in lp will give me good karma in life.... lol
<judax> greetings
<jjesse> hiya judax 
<mdke> evenin
<mdke> jjesse, the absence of the revision history can't be a licence violation, as far as I can see, I agree with you that removal of it is a good idea
<jjesse> mdke:  the docs at least for kubuntu just look cleaner
<mdke> jjesse, yeah we should definitely do that for all the docs IMHO
<mdke> anyway I've been skimreading the licences
<mdke> i don't see that there can be any problem
<jjesse> as the lawyer you would understand it better :P
<mdke> in theory ;)
<jjesse> proposed cd cover for kubuntu: http://kubuntu.org/~jr/tmp/cd-sleeve-1.png
<mdke> nice
<mdke> why the person?
<jjesse> don't remember exactly, riddell's been using the person in other things
<jjesse> http://kubuntu.org/announcements/breezy-release.php
<mdke> cool
<mdke> i ought to try kde soon
<mdke> I installed dapper yesterday, and the only thing installable was xubuntu, so i went with that
<jjesse> didn't even know there was a build of dapper already
<mdke> no there isn't a cd build
<mdke> i dist-upgraded
<jjesse> ah
<nickrud> any wikiteam people around?
<mdke> nickrud, what's up
<nickrud> I was hoping for someone to review some changes to RestrictedFormats
<mdke> nickrud, are the changes drastic?
<nickrud> http://pinutos.dyndns.org/MyWiki/RestrictedFormats
<nickrud> reorganize, do some realplayer and legal disclaimers
<mdke> you posted already to the ML didn't you?
<nickrud> no, I was starting here :)
<mdke> nickrud, strange we had a similar mail to the list recently about that page
<mdke> either that or i dreamed it
<nickrud> I see something from september, but that wasn't me
<mdke> nickrud, post to the list, i can't have a look now but I will, or someone else will
<nickrud> ok, thanks
#ubuntu-doc 2006-11-06
<tonyyarusso> What would you folks recommend for screencasts?
<Burgundavia> we haven't done much
<Burgundavia> bynaz for short stuff
<tonyyarusso> Anything I can get voice on once they fix my &$%# sound capture kernel regression/
<Burgundavia> hmm, wonder if that is the issue I am running into as well
<tonyyarusso> So far confirmed on numerous Thinkpads.
<Burgundavia> can't get input working on my tecra, but it might be my mic
<tonyyarusso> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/linux-source-2.6.17/+bug/42718
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 42718 in linux-source-2.6.17 "Sound capture on Thinkpad T20, T21, T22 not working" [Medium,Confirmed]  
<crimsun> sigh.
<crimsun> I. would. like. to. stab. the. next. person. who. blindly. adds. random. comments. to. that. bug.
<tonyyarusso> Uh oh.  Am I one of them?
<crimsun> just because it doesn't work for you does NOT mean you have the same problem!
<tonyyarusso> (The second one was a mistake - I didn't mean to say that twice)
<tonyyarusso> I'm sorry...
<crimsun> there are FOUR different codecs mentioned in all those comments.
* tonyyarusso double checks
<crimsun> I'm going to take a walk before I get very angry.
<Madpilot> Lots of people "me too" on bugs with unrelated issues; I've noticed in in a number of bugs I follow
<tonyyarusso> Um, is he mad at me, or other people?  I can't tell.
<tonyyarusso> I guess I don't know enough to know whether I have the same problem, but it seemed the same to me.
<Burgundavia> tonyyarusso: crimsun does a lot of bug triage. Sometimes he get angry
<Burgundavia> it is ok
<tonyyarusso> Burgundavia: Well, it's not really okay if I'm causing anger, because I should probably know better.  :(
<crimsun> tonyyarusso: no, I'm not angry at anyone or any of those commenters.
<crimsun> tonyyarusso: it's more a condition of "same symptom, must be the same bug!"
<tonyyarusso> crimsun: Ah, makes sense.  Is there a doc about what tests should be done to determine if it's a similar bug for sound things, so I can check mine?
<crimsun> tonyyarusso: sound issues are _always_ codec-dependent. Contrary to popular belief, many different codecs use the same driver.
<crimsun> tonyyarusso: the first thing you should do is check your codec (tail -2 /proc/asound/oss/sndstat , which is available if snd_pcm_oss is loaded)
<crimsun> tonyyarusso: the second thing you should do is check the output from ``amixer'' for your particular sound device
<crimsun> tonyyarusso: we've documented many of the known issues with various codecs on alsa.opensrc.org
<tonyyarusso> I get "AD1981B", which means something to you, but I'm still clueless
<tonyyarusso> Ah, a site!  yay!
* tonyyarusso bookmarks
<crimsun> tonyyarusso: for instance, cs46xx is known to require four different toggles (not just mic and capture being unmuted and raised)
<crimsun> yes, that's an analog devices codec implementing the ac'97 spec
<tonyyarusso> Oh my.  amixer spits out a lot of stuff
<crimsun> tonyyarusso: a similar issue exists with the sigmatels (stac7xxx) on creative labs sound blaster live/audigy cards. You have to unmute and raise Analog Mix or AC97
<crimsun> it's sometimes easier to use alsa's oss emulation perspective, because unmuting the mic there does several things that are distinct when using the alsa perspective
<crimsun> (with any increase in finer-grain control comes complexity and thus possible confusion)
<crimsun> we're addressing this in feisty
<tonyyarusso> "addressing" as in pondering what one earth to try, or are pretty confident there's a solution that just needs to be implemented, or somewhere in between?
<tonyyarusso> (My girlfriend is getting frustrated by not being able to talk to me online, sorry ;)  )
<crimsun> tonyyarusso: as in there's work to resolve it based on the codec(s) involved
<tonyyarusso> All right.
<tonyyarusso> (I'm attempting to navigate this web site you linked to to find info, and I'm a little lost if you care to help)
<crimsun> click on your driver under Drivers
<tonyyarusso> AD1981 doesn't seem to be in the list, but some other ad ones are
<crimsun> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/linux-source-2.6.17/+bug/42718/comments/11 is a summary of the points that are vital.
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 42718 in linux-source-2.6.17 "Sound capture on Thinkpad T20, T21, T22 not working" [Low,Needs info]  
<tonyyarusso> crimsun: Thank you.
<crimsun> in fact, that comment is so darned important that I've linked it as my home page URL on my LP user page.
<tonyyarusso> Nice
<Ubugtu> New bug: #70549 in ubuntu-doc "SCIM not enabled in Edgy Eft after Japanese installed" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/70549
* mdke_ mornings
<Burgundavia> mdke_: is there a story from sladen in teh queue
<mdke_> Burgundavia: in the fridge queue?
<mdke_> lemme see
<mdke_> yeah, that "DO NOT PUBLISH" one that's been in the queue for blooming ages
* mdke_ doesn't understand why it can't be prepared offline
<tonyyarusso> What's the advantage of MoinMoin over other things, like Mediawiki?
<Burgundavia> I have a quick rightup from elkubuntu on some of todays events
<Burgundavia> hoping to shame others into writing by gettting it up on the friday
<Burgundavia> fridge, rather
<mdke_> Burgundavia: stick it up
<Burgundavia> mdke_: never sorted my access, plus it is after midnight here
<Burgundavia> about to crash
<mdke_> ah, mail it to the list then. I can't do it now
<mdke_> someone will surely do it
<Burgundavia> tonyyarusso: to answer your question, mediawiki has security issues, like being PHP
<tonyyarusso> Burgundavia: What's moinmoin based on?
<mdke_> it's written in python
<tonyyarusso> Ah, of course
<Burgundavia> moinmoin is more friendly for hackers
<Burgundavia> media is still better for teh common joe
<tonyyarusso> So the wikipedia crowd versus this crowd
<Burgundavia> sort of
#ubuntu-doc 2006-11-07
<bhuvan> anyone from our doc group attending the summit?
<mpt> bhuvan, I'm here, not sure if I count though
<bhuvan> mpt, nice
<glatzor> Seveas: Hi, is mdke also at UDS?
<mdke_> glatzor: no
<glatzor> Hi mdke_. Is there a summary about the inclusion plans of the official Ubuntu book?
<mdke_> glatzor: no, not yet. What did you have in mind?
<glatzor> There is also a book about Ubuntu in German and so I asked the author if he would be interested in an integration of his book in the documentation. Since the book is available online I thought about mentioning it in the get-help section of the desktop guide
<mdke_> ah. We want to integrate the content of the official Ubuntu book into the documentation, rather than just mentioning it. Are you suggesting we could use some of the German book too?
<glatzor> We have to investigate the licence issue. Currently the author doesn't allow a commercial reprint.
<glatzor> The book has 450 pages.
<glatzor> But I don't think it would be a good idea to fork the German documentation
<mdke_> fork in what way?
<glatzor> It is not my plan to replace the current help by the book. That is what I wanted to make clear.
<mdke_> isn't the German help a translation of the English help? 
<glatzor> Yes.
<glatzor> Plus some enhancements.
<glatzor> Like links to German wiki pages or support offerings
<glatzor> Or the special legal situation about codecs
<mdke_> right. Well, we're keen to integrate new material, especially on subjects where there is no coverage already. So we'll take what we are able to, from a license point of view
<glatzor> mdke_: the author will join us here in some minutes, but  he is quite busy at the moment
<elyps> hi
<glatzor> hi elyps
<glatzor> mdke_: elyps is the author
<elyps> oder Marcus ;)
<mdke_> hello
<elyps> oh hello
<elyps> I'm sorry, I have only 15 minutes
<mdke_> glatzor has suggested that some material from your book might be incorporated into the documentation. Have you got any views on this? Is the book available in English?
<elyps> no, its not available in english, not so far ;)
<glatzor> mdke_: elyps: in a first stage I would add a link to your book's homepage in the German get help section.
<elyps> It would be nice to integrate it into the documentation, somehow
<mdke_> well, I don't see any problem with adding a link.
<elyps> ok, for me it's fine
<glatzor> mdke_: what about replacing the excerpts of the ubuntu book url?
<glatzor> mdke_: do you know if there are any plans to translate the official book?
<glatzor> elyps: could you provide the book in a format like html that could be incoparted into the help wiki?
<mdke_> glatzor: is that url in getting-help? (we plan to integrate the book into the system help, if we succeed, a link won't be necessary)
<elyps> glatzor: yes, thats possible.
<elyps> Are there plans for a translation into German?
<glatzor> mdke_: booth books are currently not mentioned there.
<glatzor> Ah, but I cannot add a new paragraph ... :/
<mdke_> sure you can.
<glatzor> Really? I tried once but failed. But perhaps I made a mistake
<mdke_> yes, should be fine
<glatzor> elyps: so as a result of this I will add a link to dappers getting help section
<elyps> mdke_:  Are there any plans for a translation of the official book? I think that this is the main thing to talk about, because if there will be a translation, then it will make no sense to integrate my part too (?).
<glatzor> elyps: mdke_: But for dapper I think we cannot do anymore. Do you still don't want to update the documentation of dapper, mdke?
<elyps> glatzor: yes, that would be fine.
<mdke_> elyps: not yet. We intend to integrate the English version into the system documentation. That is translated
<mdke_> glatzor: I don't understand the question
<mdke_> elyps: if there is material which your book covers and the Official book doesn't, it might be interesting to look at it
<elyps> mdke_: So the english version you are planning to integrate is already translated?
<glatzor> mdke_: some time ago you said, that there wo't be any updates or fixes to the dapper documentation
<mdke_> elyps: no
<mdke_> glatzor: we don't add strings, no. But we may update the translations
<mdke_> elyps: the system documentation gets translated
<elyps> mdke_:  ok.
<glatzor> mdke_: currently the desktop guide is about 100 pages, how far do you plan to extend it?
<glatzor> Could we ship the book using the translation system?
<mdke_> glatzor: we don't plan to make guides any more. We will make topic based help, and we will extend it as much as possible to cover subjects that aren't covered.
<mdke_> glatzor: I don't understand that question either. Which book? Ship how?
<glatzor> mdke_: I haven't followed the doc list recently. Since the German book seems cover more issues it could be interesting to ship it in Ubuntu
<glatzor> seems to
<mdke_> if we can integrate it in the material which we provide, then we are happy to add material on any topics. Often the style will need to be changed, because on-screen help requires a different style to a printed book.
<elyps> But the basic thing is to translate my bok into english. Who is willing to do this? I dont have the time to do tihs alone and my english isn't good enough ;)
<mdke_> I don't know
<elyps> mdke_: glatzor: I have to leave. Good night and many thanks for your time. Bye.
<LaserJock> mdke_: around?
<mdke_> LaserJock: yes, vaguely
<LaserJock> mdke_: I'm assuming the Packaging Guide will stay GPL
<mdke_> yeah, there were good reasons for that, weren't there?
<LaserJock> well, all the Debian docs are GPl
<LaserJock> although I'm not sure how that works
<LaserJock> I only grab little bits
<mdke_> LaserJock: ok
#ubuntu-doc 2006-11-08
* mdke_ mornings
<Burgundavia> hey mdke_
<mdke_> channel has been quiet lately
<pygi> mdke_, well ...
<mdke_> pygi: hmm?
<pygi> mdke_, just responding to constatation it's quiet :)
<Liz> hey..someone removed me off the moderators list 
<Liz> oops
<Liz-bedtime> oh well
<Liz-bedtime> nite 
<mdke_> Liz-bedtime: yeah, sorry - were you still doing it?
<mdke_> we had quite a few volunteers
<rob> hiya
<rob> mdke_:  so is there anything stopping anyone from forking the documentation under just one license?
<mdke_> rob: no, I don't think so
<rob> so, in that case can't the doc team just choose one license and go with that, without obtaining copyright holder approval?
<mdke_> yes, I think you are right.
<rob> problem solved then :)
<mdke_> I think we have copyright holder approval anyway
<mdke_> but yeah, problem solved
<rob> cool, well as I said on the list, go for it
<rob> was a license actually decided by consensus at a past meeting already?
<mdke_> yes
<rob> nice
<Burgundavia> we are not changing license, merely dropping one
<Burgundavia> that requires approval going forward, but not going back
<Madpilot> So the Dapper & Edgy stuff will still be dual; the Feisty docs will be only ccbysa?
<rob> Burgundavia: why, does everyone else need approval to use our docs if they just want to pick one licence?
<Burgundavia> no
<rob> so why does the doc team?
<Burgundavia> I am saying that if, we, as a team agree to drop the one license, it should be a team decision
<joachim-n> you guys dropping gfdl?
<rob> oh, ok, yes I agree on that at least :)
<Burgundavia> hwoever, we don't need to ask anybody for relicensing
<Burgundavia> joachim-n: considering it
<joachim-n> heh. so is the gnome docs team :)
<Burgundavia> I read that
<rob> heh, gnu project dropping a gnu license in favor of a third party one
<mdke_> the dual licensing wasn't doing us any good
<rob> that has to tell you something at least
<mdke_> and now we can use other cc-by-sa material
<rob> is the gnome docs team going to use the same CC license?
<mdke_> we don't know
<joachim-n> the gnome docs team is pondering a new license
<joachim-n> not sure why shaun doesn't want a CC license
<rob> completely new?
<mdke_> you're going to write your own?
<mdke_> crazy
<joachim-n> I don't entirely know what the plan is :)
<Madpilot> NIH syndrome?
<joachim-n> I'm going to shut up before I start rumours :(
<joachim-n> all I really know is what's here: http://live.gnome.org/ProjectMallard
<joachim-n> and a recent heated discussion on our list between Shaun and some lackey from GNU
<mdke_> yes, I read that
<mdke_> that guy is crazy :)
* mdke_ goes to work
<Liz-bedtime> mdke_: yeah i was, but its all good. 
<mdke_> Liz: I'll add you back, the more the merry
<Burgwork> mdke_: we just got Liz back?
<Burgwork> yay!
<mdke_> I removed her without realising she was still doing moderation work
<Liz>  :D
<Liz> its no biggie
<Liz> im glad we have alot more volunteers now 
<Liz> neway..work
<mdke_> what's your email address?
<Liz_work> teatamira@gmail.com
<mdke_> thx
<Liz_work> no worries
<Liz_work> bye now
<Ubugtu> New bug: #70958 in ubuntu-docs "missing /usr/share/gnome/help/libs/generic.ent" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/70958
<jrib> hi, what's the difference between wiki.ubuntu.com and help.ubuntu.com/community?  https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Kernel/Compile has a broken link to KernelGitGuide, because KernelGitGuide is still in the wiki
<LaserJock> jrib: help.ubuntu.com/community houses the help documentation
<LaserJock> it used to reside on wiki.ubuntu.com along with developer pages, etc.
<LaserJock> so it was moved
<dsas> nixternal: shouldn't https://wiki.ubuntu.com/bzr be on h.u.c ? The fine line confuses me sometimes...
<jrib> LaserJock:  so should KernelGitGuide be considered help and there was a mistake when the transfer to help.ubuntu was done or 0should I just relink to the wiki?
<nixternal> dsas: if you think it is clean and ready go for it..i just did it a couple days of go and was using that as a staging page until it was good
<dsas> nixternal: Ok, was just wondering when browsing RecentChanges a while ago and made a mental note to ask...
<mdke_> jrib: KernelGitGuide might be considered development information, rather than documentation for users, I would suppose. I havne't looked at the page though. If you think that's right, you can just fix the link
<nixternal> i will put that on my to do list, as i would like some extra input tweaks and what not
<LaserJock> it does look more like developer documentation
<LaserJock> I'd fix the link
<nixternal> it will be fixed and deleted as soon as it is done ;)
<jrib> LaserJock: well it's both imo, since the kernel guide recommends that method.  But I'll fix the link
<nixternal> oh
<nixternal> i thought you were talking about my garbage page ;)
<dsas> nixternal: you and your garbage are your business :p
<LaserJock> jrib: sure, but I think it makes more sense to shuffle people to the development wiki for that page then to shuffle the developers to the help wiki :-)
<nixternal> hehe
<nixternal> gee thanks dsas
* mdke_ beds
<jrib> LaserJock: haha, yes I will agree with taht one
<nixternal> g'nite master obi want kin'mdke'obi
<nixternal> s/want/wan
#ubuntu-doc 2006-11-09
<_nixternal> someone take a look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/bzr and think of a name to use for the /community wiki
<_nixternal> LaunchpadBazaar maybe?
<Plug> Is it OK to use Tutorial in page names where appropriate?
<Plug> you could go with UsingBazaarWithLaunchpad or just BazaarWithLaunchpad I guess
<_nixternal> nice Plug !
<_nixternal> UsingBazaarWithLaunchpad
<_nixternal> thank you for that ;)
<Plug> no prob
<_nixternal> hrmm..i just thunk sumpin' ;)  EasyBazaar ;)
<_nixternal> im a dork, that i know, no need to keep instilling it
<boky> i've done firewall, but my (LAN) computers can't go to the internet with static address. but when they take ip from dhcp (firewall in same time) it's working? does somebody know what is problem?
<tonyyarusso> boky: #ubuntu would be the proper place for support questions
<Ubugtu> New bug: #71082 in kubuntu-docs "Desktop Guide Wrong -- can't setting Thunderbird as my default email" [Undecided,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/71082
<fumbalah> hi :)
<fumbalah> I would like to learn about possibly helping out if anyone has a minute
<LaserJock> fumbalah: what would you like to know? :-)
<nixternal> i would like to know why chicago has to be in the 70's today..thats what i want to know ;)
<fumbalah> LaserJock: How do I get started? What can I do to help? Where do you need help?
<LaserJock> well, we always need proofreaders and writers of course :-0
<LaserJock> :-) rather
<LaserJock> we basically have 2 different areas
<LaserJock> 1) docs shipped with the distro itself on the CDs. These are written in docbook XML and reside and a svn repository.
<LaserJock> 2) help wiki at helpl.ubuntu.com/community/
<LaserJock> help.ubuntu.com/community/
<LaserJock> man, my typing is bad today
<fumbalah> lol, all good
<fumbalah> The wiki is awesome..Very extensive
<LaserJock> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/GettingStarted has some information
<LaserJock> the wiki is an easy place to contribute
<LaserJock> anybody can edit it
<LaserJock> so you are more then welcome to dig in
<fumbalah> LaserJock: Awesome, I also wouldnt mind helping with the CD stuff, because more often then not I'm not at a web browser but I have console access
<LaserJock> info on how to get the repo is here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Repository
<LaserJock> some of the docs we work on are here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Projects
<fumbalah> Alright, Awesome
<LaserJock> although the status is not up-to-date
<fumbalah> I'm definetley interested in becoming a large part of your community :)
<LaserJock> excellent
<LaserJock> are you subscribed to our mailing list?
<fumbalah> I was in the process of doing that as we speak
<LaserJock> excellent
<LaserJock> if you have questions just ask here or on the mailing list
<LaserJock> we haven't really started writing for Feisty yet
<LaserJock> but we should get some plans together sometime in the near future I think
<fumbalah> Alrighty...
<fumbalah> Anything you suggest to know or keep in mind?
<LaserJock> hmmm
<LaserJock> write early, proofread often :-)
<LaserJock> do you have any particular areas you are interested in?
<LaserJock> we have docs for Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Edubuntu, Xubuntu
<LaserJock> Packaging Guide, Server Guide, Switching from Windows
<fumbalah> I run Kubuntu, so I believe that would be a good start
<LaserJock> ok
<fumbalah> LaserJock: I think I'd like to get involved at least in the start with the proofreading type of things
<LaserJock> sure
<LaserJock> even just reading through the existing docs
<LaserJock> looking for mistakes
<LaserJock> and seeing places that could be developed more
<LaserJock> that's all very helpful
<fumbalah> Alright
<fumbalah> Wow, Google Mail is slow today
<fumbalah> Or maybe it's just my internet
<mdke_> hmm. Epiphany and firefox have stopped working, apparently without any reason. 
<mdke_> anyone else?
<LaserJock> in edgy?
<mdke_> yeah
<mdke_> crashes when loading any page
<mdke_> firefox crashes before it opens
<LaserJock> hmm, not here
<LaserJock> both work fine
<mdke_> does bug-buddy go to LP?
<mdke_> brb
<LaserJock> I thought it went to  ubuntu-users ML
<mdke> reboot did the trick
<Burgwork> mdke: bug buddy goes to the user ML
<mdke> ah. bummer
<mdke> anyhow, works now
#ubuntu-doc 2006-11-10
* mdke beds
<fumbalah> LaserJock: You still around?
<LaserJock> yeah
<fumbalah> I just wanted to thank you for helping me out earlier
<fumbalah> I appreciate that
<_nixternal> if jjesse comes around, and im not here, (trappist as well), i will start working on a ToC for the Feisty KDG that we can start working from...of course, we can change it around and what not, but I was thinking of basing it somewhat off of the book, just Kubuntu style ;)
<LaserJock> fumbalah: no problem, that's what we do here :-)
<fumbalah> LaserJock: Do you mind if I ask a few more questions? I dont want to stick myself to you, I guess I'm just kind of looking for a mentor, if that makes sense
<LaserJock> no problem
<LaserJock> _nixternal is somebody you'll be working with too so maybe he can help as well
<fumbalah> alright, anyone that is willing to "take me under their wing" more or less would be appreciated, as I'm new to the Documentation Side of things
<fumbalah> and you all seem like a friendly bunch to work with already...got good first impressions
<LaserJock> heh
<LaserJock> well we aim to please ;-)
<_nixternal> im sitting in the uni cafe waiting for some ubuntu chicago guys to show up for some edgy cds
<fumbalah> Nice
<LaserJock> I'm thinking of heading to a RLUG meeting tonight
<_nixternal> ya, i wish we had a lug meeting tonight
<fumbalah> LaserJock: If I've got suggestions on a certain article, how do I go about suggesting a change?, I read through it but didnt catch on to what I was supposed to do
<_nixternal> i know the chiglug guys want me to work on some docs for their filesystem they wrote
* _nixternal is not interested though
<_nixternal> fumbalah: is it an actual doc? if so you can make edits, create a patch, and then send it to the mailing list
<fumbalah> alright
<fumbalah> That's what I was wanting to know
<fumbalah> I'll probably be doing a lot of proofreading at first
<_nixternal> remember though, you should file a bug on launchpad, and if you want to commit a patch, then you can set yourself as the person fixing it as well
<_nixternal> good way to get that karma ;)
<_nixternal> actually fumbalah, if you are comfortable with docbook xml and the operating system, you might be better off hopping right in once we start working on the docs for 7.04
<_nixternal> i jumped in a little on dapper docs, and jumped all the way in on edgy docs, which was very tough, as time was limited there
<fumbalah> nixternal: I'm comfy with the OS, havent worked too much with Docbook
<_nixternal> docbook is super easy
<_nixternal> as a matter of fact, the actual docbook book is free and online
<_nixternal> i don't have the link here, but you can google it
<_nixternal> are you familiar with html at all?
<fumbalah> yea
<_nixternal> docbook rocks a similar structure, but truthfully is much cleaner
<fumbalah> XML right?
<_nixternal> then we use xslt files, which are templates that mold our html and pdf output
<_nixternal> yes XML
<fumbalah> nixternal: I think if I work with it I can grasp the general idea.  I'm just seeing tiny grammar things mainly when I'm proofreading, but I'd be glad to wait till you all begin work on a new release
<_nixternal> ya, it is fairly easy to learn, proofreading is very important
<_nixternal> proofreading was pretty much > /dev/null for edgy sadly
<fumbalah> I'd like to change that, I think good grammar is important
<_nixternal> it is very important...and i know that the 7.04 docs will rock, especially now that we have an official book backing the project
<fumbalah> nixternal: so at this point, what do I need to do to get involved with 7.04?
<_nixternal> well, you are lucky, we haven't started, and probably have to schedule a meeting within the next couple of weeks
<_nixternal> which is good since you want to start
<_nixternal> it allows you to go through the the trunk docs from the svn repo and see how things work
<fumbalah> Alright
<fumbalah> So should, even if I see small things, correct them and then send it to the mailing list
<_nixternal> try and find as many as possible, and then send one patch to fix them all, if they are for instance in the Desktop Guide
<fumbalah> Alright
<fumbalah> Its more on one page then a section, but i can do multiple pages at a time
<crimsun> for instance, replace all instances of "KDE" with "use a real desktop environment"
<fumbalah> lol
<fumbalah> nixternal: I hate to act really dumb, but once i make the edits, I see how to create the patch, but I didnt think I could checkin/out the svn
<crimsun> send the diff to the ml, for instance
<_nixternal> you can checkout from the svn
<_nixternal> once you make changes, goto the root of the svn repo (trunk)
<_nixternal> then you can
<_nixternal> svn diff > blah.diff
<fumbalah> nixternal: Nevermind, I didnt read far enough down the page
<fumbalah> alrighty
<_nixternal> svn stat first of course to make sure there are adds
<_nixternal> if you svn stat and see ! or ? then don't do a diff until you get those fixed
<_nixternal> A, M, D are all fine in a svn stat
<fumbalah> Alright
<fumbalah> I think I understand now
<fumbalah> I believe I will give it a try
<_nixternal> hehe, no worries, you will get it
<_nixternal> the operations are fairly easy to learn, and once you have done them a few times you will get it down
<fumbalah> Alright
<fumbalah> I dont want to email something out eventually and look stupid
<_nixternal> fumbalah: email it to me nixternal@ubuntu.com and i will look at it and help you along with it as well
<fumbalah> nixternal: Alright, thank you
<_nixternal> i have beend oing this stuff for a while, and i always look stupid doing it ;)
<fumbalah> lol
<fumbalah> It may be to you tonight, it may be tommorow, it depends on if i get this down or not
<fumbalah> Thanks for your help :)
<_nixternal> no problem
<fumbalah> This is why I like having an offsite shell for IRC
<fumbalah> cause I can get disconnected, but IRC doesnt
<_nixternal> heh, im using the uni's wifi
<_nixternal> ya, i use bip which is an irc proxy, and i can connect to it from anywhere w/o ever having to disconnect
<fumbalah> yea, it's nice...irssi makes things wonderful
<_nixternal> ya, i use irssi when i am mobile, but usually use konversation at home or the office
<fumbalah> ah
<fumbalah> I just have this on the dedicated connection, so I just scrreen it and then use it from wherever
<_nixternal> ya, with bip i don't even have to do that, which is nice, and i can have 20 irc sessions open and connected to the one
<fumbalah> nixternal: Do I put my name in as contributuing to the article....?
<fumbalah> nice :)
<_nixternal> hmm..good question
<_nixternal> i don't know how exactly they manage that section
<fumbalah> I'm editing the about kbuntu page, so...I'll leave my name out for now
<LaserJock> I usually lead that to the doc lead to add
<LaserJock> *leave
<fumbalah> Alright
<fumbalah> Should i still submit it even if i only make a couple of changes with commas and maybe adding things here or there?
<LaserJock> sure, why not :-)
<LaserJock> actually smaller patches are easier to review and apply, IMO
<LaserJock> we don't want to have to look over a 50kb diff
<fumbalah> Alright
<fumbalah> Cause the document is under review, wasnt sure if i should touch it
<LaserJock> just do it :-)
<fumbalah> Alright
<LaserJock> nobody wil scream or yell
<fumbalah> lol
<fumbalah> Thats what i was worried about
<_nixternal> heh, ya, fix the about Kubuntu page and let me know..i have to repackage the kubuntu-docs like asap
<_nixternal> fumbalah: are you working from trunk or edgy?
<_nixternal> if you are working from trunk, the About Kubuntu is going to get wiped
<_nixternal> we are going to be doing a new type of documentation to work with Ubiquity which will end up being hardcoded in one way or the other
<fumbalah> LaserJock: What does he mean, I'm editing the about page from svn
<LaserJock> fumbalah: what happens is we make a svn branch when we have the doc freeze before a release
<LaserJock> so we created an edgy branch when the edgy docs froze
<LaserJock> we continue working in the trunk of the repo continuously
<LaserJock> I think you got the trunk
<fumbalah> so I should quit editing?
<LaserJock> which is what you want
<fumbalah> oh
<LaserJock> but he also said that About Kubuntu is going to be wiped out
<LaserJock> so if you are working on that then you probably shouldn't bother
<fumbalah> lol, I would choose that section 
<LaserJock> of course :-)
<LaserJock> the desktop guide is probably a good choice
<fumbalah> Alright,I'll find some things to proofread in there
<fumbalah> are the irc cloaks project based or are they for users as well?
<LaserJock> hm?
<fumbalah> like. member/ubuntu/username
<LaserJock> the ubuntu/member/ ones?
<fumbalah> yea
<LaserJock> those are for Ubuntu Members
<crimsun> jordan needs a special cloak for being supar MOTU
<LaserJock> haha
<robotgeek> hello all
<fumbalah> LaserJock: Alrighty, nevermind then :)
<fumbalah> Hi robotgeek 
<LaserJock>  /ubuntuholic/motu/laserjock
<robotgeek> hey fumbalah 
<LaserJock> fumbalah: well, now you need to become a member, right? ;-)
<robotgeek> so, LaserJock ... super motu now? i've been away for quite a while now
<LaserJock> robotgeek: no, no
<LaserJock> crimsun's the only one of those around
<fumbalah> LaserJock: I guess that would be a good idea
<crimsun> me? pssht. I'm a nobody. Remember my not having a blog?
<LaserJock> whatever
<crimsun> I don't even have a Ubuntu cloak.
<crimsun> epitome of nobody :)
<LaserJock> that's because you are bigger then a cloak
* fumbalah begins the seventeen year proccess to become a member
<crimsun> hey now, I think I'm not that fat
<LaserJock> haha, no
<LaserJock> fumbalah: it takes "significant and sustained" contribution to Ubuntu
<fumbalah> LaserJock: I know, I figured that
<LaserJock> fumbalah: basically, work on Ubuntu stuff for a couple months and show that you can play nicely
<fumbalah> Alrighty
<fumbalah> Thank you all for taking me under your wing
<fumbalah> s
<LaserJock> no problem
<LaserJock> thank you very much for being interested in contributing
<LaserJock> it's what makes Ubuntu work
<fumbalah> your welcome :)
<fumbalah> you all have one of the most friendly communities i know
<LaserJock> we try :-)
<fumbalah> Ubuntu doesnt like my wireless card, but other t hen that, It rocks
<robotgeek> fumbalah: what wireless card
<fumbalah> robotgeek: broadcom 4318
<fumbalah> There are a ton of issues with it
<robotgeek> hmm, isn't that the same as in my laptop. sec (ibook)
<robotgeek> nope, mine is 4306
<theCore> I starting to wonder when the next CC meeting will be.
<fumbalah> CC?
<theCore> fumbalah, Community Council
<fumbalah> ah
<theCore> it is the group that accept new members
<fumbalah> sorry, kinda new :)
<theCore> it is okay, I was new, before too :)
<theCore> I am waiting for next meeting to apply for the membership
<fumbalah> ah
<theCore> I hope I will "pass"
<fumbalah> Well, hopefully around the time I graduate i'll be able to apply
<fumbalah> which will be like may
<fumbalah> Which would be a good time I think to, cause i'll have gotten a good 6 months experience
<theCore> I suggest that you don't think about the membership for now, it not really important until you want commit access
<fumbalah> theCore: Advice taken :)
<fumbalah> I'm new, just trying to learn the ropes
<theCore> the best thing to do is simply to help other people
<fumbalah> agreed
<theCore> that includes developers and users
<theCore> the rest is really only "politics"
<fumbalah> alrighty
<fumbalah> Is there anywhere else I should hang out besides in here and in #kubuntu ?
<theCore> it really depends of what you want to do
<fumbalah> a lot of proofreading mostly
<theCore> #ubuntu-motu and #ubuntu-bugs are good place to hang out if you want to help developing Ubuntu
<theCore> for documentation #ubuntu-doc is the best place
<fumbalah> I pretty much want to deal with documentation, coding has never been my thing
<theCore> there's also the mailing lists   
<fumbalah> subscribed to the doc one
<theCore> so, you're good to go
<fumbalah> Awesome :)
<fumbalah> Thank you all again :)
* robotgeek needs to read up to get back into the loop
<fumbalah> I guess I'll dig into the desktop guide after I finish a college essay
<theCore> fumbalah, well, it is me that thank you, new people are always welcome
<fumbalah> theCore: I can understand that..To a point, i see people not wanting to sit and just read text
<theCore> they certainly want to learn
<fumbalah> yea, I meant like, proofreading/editing, the endusers i know appreciate it
<theCore> oh, yeah. 
<fumbalah> hmm, how to setup gmail for the mailing list
<fumbalah> *ponders*
<theCore> to setup?
<fumbalah> I'm setting up an account for all my mailing list subscriptions
<fumbalah> Google for your domain is nifty
<fumbalah> I like it
<fumbalah> my wisdom teeth stiches are coming out, and its annoying
<Madpilot> you're on IRC while the surgeon is taking your stitches out?
<fumbalah> lol, no, they disolve
<fumbalah> though, if i could be on IRC, that'd be kinda cool
<nixternal> whee
<nixternal> actually, everything in trunk fumbalah, is going to be rewritten from scratch
<nixternal> https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/branches/edgy/ would be the current directory in which to file bugs against
<Burgundavia> why so?
<nixternal> why so what?
<nixternal> that made a ton of sense didn't it
<fumbalah> nixternal: Alright, thanks for letting me know
<nixternal> everything Kubuntu in trunk will be rewritten...and for good reason...about and release notes will become a new thing for ubiquity, and then a special thing for the website, but will probably be built in the wiki...the desktop guide will be rewritten to remove all of the old stuff and incorporate the book
<Burgundavia> ah
<fumbalah> nixternal: Will something be sent out over the mailing list or something when I can start helping out?
<nixternal> well, im sure we will put out a "meeting minutes" on the list if we have one
<nixternal> but if you are hanging out here, you shouldn't miss it ;)
<fumbalah> alrighty
<fumbalah> so with the edgy thing I'm filing bugs for...What is gonna happen once they are approved?
<nixternal> they will hopefully get fixed eventually, but it is hard because of translation stuff...only the english versions will get fixed
<fumbalah> Alright
<fumbalah> but I'm more likely to see changes made once the new documentation is written
<nixternal> well, when the new documentation is written, hopefully we will have a chapter breakdown, and people can grab a chapter an run maybe..but we will have to see
<nixternal> right now is the quiet time for the doc team, where we will do side doc work or wiki work until it picks back up
<fumbalah> ah
<nixternal> right now is the dev summit for ubuntu in california, and after that is complete then we should have a better idea of what is to come
<fumbalah> Alrighty
<fumbalah> Well, I guess I'll just stick around and take whatever is handed to me
<fumbalah> nixternal: Do you have a name so I can list you in my contacts?
<fumbalah> wow
<nixternal> hahaha
<fumbalah> that has got ot be the dumbest question i've asked
<nixternal> no, my parents just called me nixternal since 1974
<fumbalah> ever
<nixternal> Richard Johnson ;)
<fumbalah> lol
<nixternal> haha
<fumbalah> *feels idiotic*
<fumbalah> A new email account always feels so empty to me
<nixternal> hehe
<nixternal> sign up for bug mail, it won't be empty for long
<fumbalah> lol, that might get a little bit too crowded
<fumbalah> Are their any other mailing list you suggest?
<nixternal> i think i have about 30 of them in just ubuntu alone
<nixternal> doc list is good, the *-users lists for support
<nixternal> -devel lists are good
<nixternal> then i have debian-docs and kde-docs as well...it is hard to belive, but those 2 lists hardly get email unless someone files a bug
<fumbalah> hmm, I may subscibe to the debian docs list
<fumbalah> Cause I still have a server here running it
<nixternal> their documentation is very different than ours
<nixternal> they use Docbook-SGML
<nixternal> fun stuff
<fumbalah> I've never actually even looked at it
<fumbalah> I pretty much just set debian up out of the box
<fumbalah> I may switch it to the server version of ubuntu at some point
<nixternal> like here, with Docbook-XML our entities are &entity; and in Docbook-SGML is would be *entity; which causes a bunch of validation issues when you start confusing them
<fumbalah> ah, I think i prefer xml anyway
<fumbalah> nixternal: thanks again for taking me on
<nixternal> no problem
<nixternal> glad to have you!
<fumbalah> so I should remove the svn i downloaded from the trunk and download from the more current link yo ugave me
<fumbalah> svn has definetley killed my connection twice
<nixternal> that is odd
<nixternal> there is a lot to download, but they are all relatively small files
<fumbalah> Who knows...
<fumbalah> almost finished though
<fumbalah> awesome
<fumbalah> all checked out
<Ubugtu> New bug: #71115 in kubuntu-docs (main) "Kubuntu doc wrong , Can't find to setup Thunderbird my default email." [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/71115
<nixternal> hrmm
<nixternal> for that bug, 71115, it is Dapper...is it alright to fix that in the repos, do a fix committed, and maybe one day the -docs package will get updated in the release?  at least maybe the h.u.c site?
<crimsun> if you've committed the fix already, it's ok to mark it Fix Committed
<Burgundavia> once it hits the archives, it is released
<nixternal> ya i know that, but is it alright for me to make a string fix to the dapper svn?
<nixternal> i guess so, because i have been doing so to the edgy svn
<nixternal> and im getting ready to do more
<nixternal> robotgeek: i see you lurking in the LP ;)
<crimsun> I don't think it's possible to "lurk" in the LP
* mdke moins
* rob burps
* fumbalah looks in
<fumbalah> Hows everyone doing this fine morning(well,at least here morning)
<fumbalah> good morning
<stelis> Hi
<fumbalah> Whats up?
<stelis> I'm just avoiding work at the moment
<fumbalah> Nice
<fumbalah> Same here
<stelis> :)
<stelis> A lot of people are currently at the Developer Summit, so the IRC channels may be a bit quiet ATM
<fumbalah> I figured that
<fumbalah> I think i'll try and go next year
<stelis> What do you work on?
<fumbalah> I dont curretly, I'm starting to work on Documentation, but I'd be interested in attending just to learn 
<stelis> I just started last week myself
<fumbalah> I'm working on the wiki currently, how bout yourself?
<stelis> Supposed to be working on the Edubuntu Handbook
<stelis> That's what I'm avoiding :)
<fumbalah> lol
<fumbalah> Do you actually work for the project or are you doing what I'm doing and just starting to helpp
<stelis> Like you, I'm just a volunteer
<stelis> I've been surprised how many key people aren't Canonical employees
<stelis> The Wiki is a really good place to start
<fumbalah> yea
<fumbalah> I starterd proofreading actual docs last night, and then I found out what i was proofreading was being rewritten
<stelis> :)
<fumbalah> So I just decided to start with the wiki
<fumbalah> Figure i can make a good impression that way
<stelis> Yeah, a lot of people are timid about editing popular pages, so they aren't as good as they could be
<fumbalah> yea
<stelis> I guess you've found the CategoryCleanup?
<fumbalah> I've looked at it, I'm just working on a tiny page at the moment
<fumbalah> Working on the ipod page
<stelis> Cool
<stelis> I was in an Apple store last week, but I heard that the new iPods broke Linux support, so I passed
<fumbalah> I havent tried the new ones out yet
<fumbalah> My video works fine though
<stelis> How good are the images?
<stelis> I wondered whether the CPU etc. would really be up to it
<fumbalah> I havent had a problem at all with it
<stelis> So it all pretty much Just Works then?
<fumbalah> yea
<stelis> Linux is getting easy these days
<fumbalah> It really is
<stelis> I'm starting a new job next week, and actually not looking forward to building my workstation 
<stelis> It'll be XP and I'll have spend all day on it
<fumbalah> Very nice.  What do you do for a living?
<stelis> I was an admin, but the new job will be mixed DBA and Web dev work
<fumbalah> Ah
<fumbalah> I'm planning on hoping to go into Sysadmin work after college
<stelis> It can be hard to get your first job
<stelis> Contacts help a lot
<stelis> Everybody wants experienced admins :)
<dthacker> fumbalah: you really want the pager?
<fumbalah> dthacker: lol, I want to work in the educational sector
<fumbalah> which means at 4, i can turn the pager off
<dthacker> wise choice, much less 24x7 pressure
<stelis> Depends on the institution
<stelis> My admin job was at a College
* dthacker thinks it's interesting that admins tend to gravitate to docs help
<dthacker> stellis: good point,  I'm thinking of a fellow LUG member who works for a school district
<stelis> Yeah, I think it's scratching an itch
<fumbalah> stelis: High school, I have a  lot of contact within my school district
<stelis> I used to work at a school and it was better
<stelis> The hour between 4 and 5 gives the ability to get stuff done
<dthacker> speaking of work, it's high time I got there.  See you around the channel.  
<stelis> Cheers
<stelis> The College runs 8am-8pm and uni are like that too
<stelis> fumbalah: Have you looked at Edubuntu?
<stelis> I was blown away at how good this could be for schools
<fumbalah> stelis: I plan on it
<fumbalah> brb
<fumbalah> have a meeting
<fumbalah> good morning again
<stelis> Hi
<fumbalah> I thought you were going to work
<stelis> I'm still staring out of the window
<stelis> This is just not a very interesting bit of documentation
<fumbalah> What are you working on?Specifically
<stelis> Customizing the Edubuntu desktop
<stelis> e.g. changing the theme, language settings etc.
<fumbalah> Ah
<fumbalah> I think I may setup a machine with that here
<stelis> It's well worth it
<stelis> It's a thin client system with basically zero setup
<fumbalah> Do I have to have a main server setuop>
<stelis> The default installation silently configures all the network services needed for TC
<stelis> The only odd requirement is that prefers two NICs
<stelis> One for main network and one for the TC network
<stelis> It automatically provides DHCP to the TC network
<stelis> I'm using VMware to fake a network ATM 
<fumbalah> Alright
<fumbalah> I think I'm going to set it u in a mini-lab situation
<stelis> Should work pretty well.
<stelis> If you use modern PCs they will have PXE network boot support built-in, so you just need to set them to boot from the network in the BIOS.
<fumbalah> Alrighty
<fumbalah> Does it support ldap/active directory authentication
<stelis> Ah
<fumbalah> We have 2200 students so we need to be able to use the existing authentication protocol
<stelis> You can do that with any Linux distro via Winbind, but the lead developer wants to add more support in Feisty
<fumbalah> ah
<stelis> He's very keen to do so, in fact
<fumbalah> Do you have an email address for him? 
<stelis> The edubuntu-devel mailing list is probably the best point of contact
<fumbalah> Alright
<fumbalah> I just need to be able to prove proof of concept to our LAN Manager
<stelis> If you check the archive there was a brief comment 
<stelis> I see
<fumbalah> yea, he'd be willing to try it
<stelis> Cool.
<stelis> A lot of managers I know still pull faces when you say "Linux"
<fumbalah> Ours is pretty cool
<fumbalah> We have a lot of custom educational tools written in ruby and a lot of things hooked in with linux
<stelis> Woah!
<fumbalah> Yea
<fumbalah> We're pretty cutting edge 
<stelis> Definitely.
<stelis> Where is this, if you don't mind me asking?
<fumbalah> A district in kentucky
<fumbalah> Its more our school then 
<fumbalah> like fayette
<fumbalah> wow, that makes no sense
<fumbalah> Its the fayette county school disstrict
<fumbalah> but it is more our specific school in the district
<stelis> It does seem to be down to individuals to push for OSS, ATM
<fumbalah> Yea
<fumbalah> Most of us are all about it
<stelis> Great. I'm in an area in the UK where the county IT people love it, but my particular employer is lagging behind.
<stelis> I was stunned to find a department hacking on Moodle two week ago, though.
<fumbalah> We;re using moodle
<fumbalah> :)
<stelis> :)
<stelis> It seems to everywhere
<fumbalah> We like it, as do most of our teachers
<stelis> These guys hadn't heard of Ubuntu, and knew basically nothing about Linux, but people at some other institution had tipped them off
<stelis> (About Moodle)
<fumbalah> ah
<stelis> We tried to implement a proprietary LMS, but the vendor fluffed it themselves
<fumbalah> Well, I'm excited to try kubuntu
<fumbalah> edubuntu*
<stelis> It doesn't include Moodle, but there is a school management system built-in
<stelis> SchoolTool
<stelis> Apparently the fact that Moodle uses PHP is a concern
<fumbalah> ah
<fumbalah> I'd love to see it in rails
<fumbalah> just cause rails cuts down on some much of the code
<stelis> That's what I was thinking
<stelis> Also I like the way that Rails makes installing and maintaining apps easier
<fumbalah> Do you have an email adress in case I have any quesitons?
<fumbalah> I'll hit the mailing list for most
<stelis> This is me: https://launchpad.net/people/stuart-ellis
<stelis> Feel free to drop by #edubuntu
<fumbalah> Alrighty
<stelis> I'm not a dev, but they hang out there
<stelis> And I'm on whenever I can
<fumbalah> alright, same here for the most part
<fumbalah> stelis: If you ever need me to proofread anything please feel free
<stelis> Thanks.
<fumbalah> https://launchpad.net/people/brett-meadors
<fumbalah> That's me
<stelis> The Handbook is in svn under edubuntu/handbook/C/
<fumbalah> Alrighty
<fumbalah> I'll grab that when i get home
<fumbalah> would be way tpp slow from school
<stelis> They block all the ports here
<fumbalah> I'd have to wait till i could get on my laptop anyway to svn
<fumbalah> cuase this is just a permannent connection to iRC
* fumbalah digs into the proftp page
<fumbalah> this page needs aa lot of work
<stelis> I suggest this revision: "Please stop using FTP. It's broken."
<fumbalah> lol
<fumbalah> Why do you say that?
<stelis> Because SSH and WebDAV do everything that FTP does, but a lot of people just don't don't seem to know it.
<fumbalah> yea, but ftp is easier for the end user
<stelis> You might be surprised: http://www.elsn.org/SSH-HOWTO/ssh-howto.html
<stelis> There are free Windows graphical clients, and Linux has graphical support built-in
<fumbalah> Interesting
<fumbalah> I'm doing a complete overhaul of this page though
<stelis> It's a bit of a pet cause, sorry :)
<fumbalah> all good
<fumbalah> brb
<fumbalah> Must call lexmark
<fumbalah> Afteroon all
<fumbalah> how is everyone doing?
<fumbalah> nixternal: are you around?
<nixternal> hey fumbalah, i am working on a couple of poopy windows boxes setting up a wifi thing for my sister
<fumbalah> nixternal: Sounds like a blast
<nixternal> never
<nixternal> i hate having microsoft producs in my house
<fumbalah> Did you get my email?
<fumbalah> me too
<fumbalah> I'm all linux
<nixternal> haven't had a chance to look through just ye
<nixternal> t
<fumbalah> alright
<nixternal> Brett?
<fumbalah> yea
<fumbalah> that'd be me
<fumbalah> :)
<nixternal> got it ;)
<fumbalah> Alright, cool
<nixternal> ya, im on the list of emailed people when it comes to wiki edits..it allows me to follow and make sure people aren't doing stuff they shouldn't be
<fumbalah> Just started editing some wiki pages of yours so I just wanted you to look at them when you got a chance
<fumbalah> Ah, that's a good thing to do
<fumbalah> Why does your sister need windows?
<nixternal> edit away
<nixternal> she doesn't
<fumbalah> just thinks she does?
<nixternal> im not about to set her up with Linux now, that would mean way to many phone calls
<fumbalah> lol
<nixternal> i have a few hundred switchers now that i am maintaining
<nixternal> 75% of them are on their own and flying
<fumbalah> Nice :)
<nixternal> the other 25% bug the hell out of me ;)
<fumbalah> lol
<fumbalah> How would i go about rrequesting a page link be changed?
<fumbalah> proftp shoud be proftpd
<nixternal> well, the application is proftp
<nixternal> it is only setup as a daemon in /etc/init.d
<nixternal> interesting how microsoft does their autoupdates
<crimsun> no.
<nixternal> if you run snoop on a machine doing it, they use a setup similar to apt-get
<fumbalah> nixternal: but it is listed as proftpd by the people that make the software
<crimsun> ProFTPD is the app.
<nixternal> thats what i said
<nixternal> oh., the d
<nixternal> i thought the app itself was proftp, didn't know the app included teh daemon
<fumbalah> yea
<nixternal> learn something new every day
<fumbalah> yup :_
<crimsun> the daemon _is_ the app :)
<fumbalah> :-)
<fumbalah> nixternal: How would i go about changing that in the wiki/
<nixternal> hrmm...create the page, copy over the info from proftp page to the new page, and then redirect the old page to the new page
<fumbalah> Alright
<fumbalah> I'm going to finish all my editing to it first
<fumbalah> Are they pllaning on dropping docbook with the new releease?
<nixternal> not that i know of
<fumbalah> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TopicBasedHelp
<fumbalah> It sounds like they are looking to move awayfrom docbook
<fumbalah> or at least using chapters now
<nixternal> ya
<nixternal> i am reading htat now
<fumbalah> Kind of interesting
<nixternal> thank god that only applies to Ubuntu docs and not Kubuntu or Xubuntu docs
<fumbalah> Really
<fumbalah> I didnt know that?
<nixternal> ya, Project Mallard is GNOME
<nixternal> i do mainly Kubuntu docs with just a handfull of us
<fumbalah> ah
<fumbalah> I think your pretty well stuck with my then, cause I only use kubuntu
<fumbalah> and sooner or later edubuntu
<nixternal> i use them all, but I have bene using kde since day one
<fumbalah> ah
<nixternal> i have tried to switch at one time, just recently to learn something new, and found myself getting annoyed easily
<fumbalah> I like kubuntu, and hope to be rolling out edbuntu in our school
<nixternal> kubuntu docs are getting rewritten, we just haven't come up with how just yet
<fumbalah> I wouldnt mind a little bit of input
<fumbalah> once the time comes around to decide
<nixternal> we will need as much input as possible, so
<fumbalah> Will that be over the mailing list or in a meeting?
<nixternal> meeting more than likely, but there will be acombo of some mailing list as well
<nixternal> it is usually published at least a week in advance of when a meeting will be
<fumbalah> Alright, and that will be all the kubuntu doc people and then any volunteers?
<nixternal> i need to get a jump on things though, because starting at the end of january i will be enrolled in over 20 credit hours ;(
* fumbalah will help pick up some of t he slack hopefully
<fumbalah> Just let me know
* mdke boggles at ircII
* nixternal just boggles
<mdke> meh. this makes no sense.
<nixternal> hehe
<nixternal> Burgwork: http://www.ubuntu.com/downloads <> is it possible to have the buring the cd rom link go directly to the h.u.c/community location instead of the wiki, so people don't see the nasty redirect?
<mdke> nixternal: I'll do it
<nixternal> coolio
<Burgwork> nixternal: mdke and myself have write access to the website. You can also file a bug
<mpt> Burgwork, now would be a good time to raise objections to https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/topic-based-help if you have any :-)
<Burgwork> right, that work thing
#ubuntu-doc 2006-11-11
<nixternal> alrighty, i have looked over the mallard stuff, the spec, but i have yet to see a working example..i would like to see an example first, because what i am reading is creating either a FAQ type doc, or doing close to what we do now
<dsas> From what I understand it is to be more question and answer style.
<nixternal> how do we select the questions though?
<dsas> well, question is the wrong word. for example "I installed a program but now I cant find it"
<nixternal> ya
<nixternal> i don't think it is a good idea to get rid of the type of documentation we have as it is, but to do something extra like that as a help system is OK
<nixternal> then again, topic-based help systems is what microsoft does, and i will admit their help is pretty damn nice ootb
<nixternal> so for help, ok i like the idea, but for documentation i don't
<nixternal> as you can see from the forums, #ubuntu, and other support areas, a lot of people like hand holding
<dsas> It makes sense to me - who reads documentation? People who are experiencing problems, that and curious people.
<nixternal> a lot of people actually
<nixternal> if they didn't we wouldn't be getting all the bugs we do
<dsas> nixternal: But _why_ are they reading it?
<nixternal> for one, the documentation is really being read from help.ubuntu.com usually prior to them installing
<nixternal> and if you ask a majority of the people where they go for helpo, they will say the forums
<dsas> The forums are in a "question and answer" style rather than a manual though.
<nixternal> see, we can't decide on something w/o input from a large user base, it could be dangerous
<dsas> True, I guess it depends on how much you blindly trust mpt, upstream and a few others :)
<nixternal> not many people go through the help locally either
<nixternal> i don't use local help stuff or documentation, i just write it for kubuntu and kde
<dsas> I just lurk in #ubuntu-doc and the list ;)
<Burgwork> upstream is fairly smart
<Burgwork> shaunm has been writing docs a long time
<nixternal> im not saying they aren't fairly smart, but it seems they are taking their own ideas and opinions and pushing them into a project, instead of researching it first
<nixternal> topic based is good, but how many people actually use the help system locally anyways? i don't know..i know i don't, but that doesn't mean millions of others don't
<Burgwork> are we talkinga bout mallard?
<Burgwork> mallard has been in plan mode for almost 2 years now
<dsas> Isn't ubuntuguide.org, gwos, h.u.c and lots of other commonly used doc sources all topic/faq based too?
<nixternal> is there any type of documentation for it, besides their rather blank web page that lightly goes over their ideas?  
<Burgwork> there is somewhere
<Burgwork> ask shaunm
<nixternal> dsas: you just hit my next point, we have a million help things out there already, is adding another the correct thing?
<Burgwork> this is more a consolidation thing
<nixternal> im not against this at all, i just want to understand it more so i can make a uniformed decision, and so if i think it is worth it, contact phil at kde about it, and present it to riddell as well
<nixternal> so if my questions are rather ignorant, it is because i am towards the idea
<tonyyarusso> What's mallard?
<Burgwork> a docbook replacement
<Burgwork> based around the idea of small, discrete, bits of help
<Burgwork> linked, wiki style, together
<dsas> nixternal: If this works out (and licensing issues are resolved) we can integrate more h.u.c/community stuff into the local help. 
<Burgwork> yes
<nixternal> well, what was the reason with switching to the CC-by-SA 2.5 recently then?  because from what I read I thought I seen we would require multiple licenses
<Burgwork> why do we require multiple licenses?
<Burgwork> the two were chosen in the hopes that one would be declared non-free by debian
<Burgwork> however, we have found that we interact little with the debian doc team
<nixternal> well, according to the spec the CC-by-SA won't work for this
* Burgwork needs to read the spec in more detail
<nixternal> the current GNU FDL and Creative Commons licenses have problems
<nixternal> that is snipped
<dsas> choosing cc-by-sa buggers up integrating with gnome upstream. but that's apparently out of scope at the minute
<Burgwork> gnome is considering cc by sa as well
<Burgwork> and remember, numbers don't matter with cc by sa
<Burgwork> ie: if you license under 2.0, you have also licensed under 2.5 and 3.0
<Burgwork> anyway, I need to go home
<Burgwork> cya
<dsas> that could theoretically suck one day
<fumbalah> Evening guys
<fumbalah> Hows everyone doing?
<theCore> good, you?
<fumbalah> Doing pretty well
<theCore> have you taken a look to the docs?
<fumbalah> theCore: I've edited a few wiki pages today, and basically rewritten another from scratch
<theCore> oh, that's nice
<theCore> do you have a copy of the docteam repository?
<fumbalah> yea, I got one yesterday
<fumbalah> I'm just starting with the wiki pages to get a feel
<theCore> do you have some technical knowledge?
<theCore> or you are mostly doing spell-checking?
<fumbalah> both :)
<fumbalah> I help maintain 900 or so machines at my school a few hours daily, so...
<theCore> ah, that's good
<fumbalah> yea, hoping to role out edbuntu in a mini lab by the end of the month
<theCore> in a University?
<fumbalah> High School
<theCore> oh, that makes more sense... :)
<fumbalah> yea...I want to try it in a few classrooms
<theCore> those students will be lucky
<fumbalah> Hopefully :)
<fumbalah> theCore: Anything in specific you are working on at the moment?
<theCore> well, nothing related to Ubuntu right now
<fumbalah> I meant like, not right now, but like, in the coming weeks?
<fumbalah> Whichc i guess it would have just been easier to say tha
<theCore> oh, I'm probably continue doing some tech support and roll a graphical application for configuring GRUB 
<fumbalah> ah, nice
<fumbalah> theCore: Are you the one applying for CC membership at the next meeting?
<theCore> yes
<fumbalah> Alright, I thought so 
<fumbalah> I may just watch that process, just to see how to go about it at some point
<theCore> ah, it is not hard
<theCore> just keep an history of what you have done
<fumbalah> alright
<fumbalah> I've just got to make sure to keep a fair balence between the wiki and actual docs
<theCore> both are fairly important
<theCore> a nice way of working on the "official" docs is the merge things from the wiki
<fumbalah> ah, that makes good sense
<theCore> Although, I am not saying that you should copy and paste.
<theCore> even if the Wiki is public domain
<fumbalah> I would only merge what I wrote anyway :-p
<nixternal> im not sold on topic based help replacing documentation..and i know i have read that is the plan...
<nixternal> i am banging my head on that topic here
<fumbalah> nixternal: I figured you were gone for the night
<nixternal> i have been working on some servers, and still am
<nixternal> but during installs and what not, i am reading up on this spec
<fumbalah> ah
<nixternal> topic based help == the microsoft help center
<nixternal> which is good
<fumbalah> I think how it is works better 
<nixternal> but we can't replace our documents/handbook/manuals
<nixternal> granted, KHelpCenter really doesn't provide help as much as it provides information, and yelp is the same way though...the help is nothing but manuals, not help
<fumbalah> yea
<theCore> ok, I am off
<nixternal> so i can see a help system being very good, but not replacing documentation
<nixternal> later theCore!
<theCore> see ya all
<nixternal> when is the next CC?
<fumbalah> nixternal: Shouldnt you know those things :-p
<nixternal> not really
<nixternal> but it seems im part of some secret society of late, and maybe i should
<fumbalah> nixternal: If you'll give me a minute i'll try and find out
<nixternal> yoyo Madpilot!
<Madpilot> hi nixternal 
<fumbalah> nixternal: No idea
<fumbalah> cant'd find anythingg on it
<fumbalah> nixternal: Did all my edits look ok?
<nixternal> ya they were fine
<fumbalah> alright, cool, thanks for lookin at em
<nixternal> no problem
<fumbalah> you all were really good at getting me started
<nixternal> nah, you took it upon yourself to get started, we just jerked the steering wheel every now and again ;)
<fumbalah> lol, that works too :)
<fumbalah> I'm just going to work my way down the cleanup page at first
<nixternal> exactly how i started
<fumbalah> so how many emails do you average a day with all te wikipedia edits?
<nixternal> not that many...couple hundred maybe
<fumbalah> eww
<fumbalah> Way too many for me
<nixternal> well, bug emails are more that double that
<fumbalah> wow
<Madpilot> nixternal, are you one of the insane people subbed to the entire wiki? Both wikis?
<nixternal> both wikis
<nixternal> keeping an eye making sure everyone plays nice
<fumbalah> Thats still alot of email
<nixternal> ya, but filters and kmail rock
<fumbalah> I prefer gmail and filters, but to each his own
<fumbalah> good morning
<fumbalah> hows everyone?
<fumbalah> Good morning
<fumbalah> Hi
<nixternal> oy
<fumbalah> Get all the server work done last night?
<nixternal> nope
<nixternal> man, today is starting out to be quite busy already
<fumbalah> Need any help with anything?
<nixternal> can you take my stuff to the cleaners today ;)
<nixternal> hahaha
<nixternal> today is my personal day
<nixternal> i try not to work unless im hit up with some bug stuff
<fumbalah> ah
<fumbalah> *uses matter transporter to take your stuff where it needs to go*
<fumbalah> I'm trying to get a couple new pages typed out today :)
<nixternal> ya, i don't want to do much today, but rest, and maybe do some school work
<fumbalah> Good call
<nixternal> which im sure will be some goofy scripting stuff which i haven't looked at yet
<fumbalah> Working on the irssi page :)
<nixternal> irssi page
<nixternal> oh lord..didn't even know there was one
<fumbalah> there isnt, i was going to write it
<nixternal> redirect it to irssi.org ;) it has everything there
<fumbalah> Alrighty, that works too :), save me some writing
<nixternal> it is hard writing a page that deals with settings, because of the bias that goes into it, some people may not like the ircii look, or liek the way bitchx works, and blah blah ;)
<nixternal> the redirect thing was a joke, btw ;)
<fumbalah> ah, alright..so i shouldnt really bother?
<fumbalah> hmm...*ponders what to work on*
<fumbalah> so bored
<nixternal> food, done chicago style, fixes my bordom, back later ;)
<fumbalah> hiya
<fumbalah> Hows everyone?
#ubuntu-doc 2006-11-12
<Burgundavia> mdke: ping
<LaserJock> nixternal: you around?
<fumbalah> LaserJock: Hey, what's up?
<LaserJock> hi
<LaserJock> not a ton
<LaserJock> trying to do various things
<fumbalah> Same here.  I'm trying to figure out what to work on in the kubuntu docs
<fumbalah> Not really sure what to try and work/improve 
<fumbalah> How bout yourself?
<nixternal> yo yo LaserJock
* fumbalah beats head trying to decide what to do
<nixternal> i been at the doggy hospital all night ;*(
<LaserJock> bummer
<LaserJock> serious?
<nixternal> ya
<nixternal> well, she has fluid around (not in) her lungs, caused her heart to swell, and she couldn't breathe and kept passing out
<nixternal> but they got her in an oxygen tank, and are giving her meds to try and push the fluid out
<LaserJock> :(
<nixternal> hopefully she will be home tomorrow though
<nixternal> there went my laptop though ;(
<nixternal> doggy hospitals are where the money is
<nixternal> $500 tonight on the spot, and probably some more tomorrow
<LaserJock> mhm
* Burgundavia is glad he lives in Canada and has "socialist" medicare
<nixternal> what are you breaking tonight?
<nixternal> haha
<Burgundavia> I am busy breaking the website
<nixternal> ya, untested medication, which i will laugh when it bites ya
<LaserJock> I was just reading through the -doc list about the topic-based-help spec
<nixternal> actually, illinois gets their meds from canada now, or did until that lady kicked the bucket
<nixternal> LaserJock: im slowly changing my mind on it, but not as a total replacement
<LaserJock> well, i haven't really read the spec yet
<nixternal> and i have actually looked at the various topic based systems, and it means a lot more work on a few peoples part, but in the long run it will be worth it i think
<LaserJock> is it lik mdke's propsal?
<nixternal> don't read the spec, the spec doesn't do topic based any justice
<nixternal> it refers to projects that are 2 years in the dreaming...i went and researched topic based help system, i.e. Microsoft and MacOSX
<LaserJock> well, my point is that maybe "topic based help" was the wrong way of looking at it
<LaserJock> I thought mdke's proposal was rather good
<LaserJock> and the way we have it now in edgy
<nixternal> topic based help is good, and requires us to write docs a tad bit different, but the Mac documenters as well as the MS documenters still use Docbook for their systems
<nixternal> well, we don't have help, we have manuals/handbooks/guides
<LaserJock> not so much on the Ubuntu side
<LaserJock> kinda
<nixternal> well, if i goto help, it is the same handbook stuff i see in ubuntu that i do on kubuntu
<nixternal> if i need help, i goto the forums, wiki and irc
<nixternal> because i know my issue isn't in any of those manuals
<LaserJock> right, but nothing says guide or handbook or manual
<LaserJock> anyway, I know what you're saying
<nixternal> i say, we keep the manuals the way they are, however we take topics from those sources and create an extra doc that would feed topic based help
<LaserJock> I think at some point we wanted to do that with the wiki
<LaserJock> i.e. the wiki is the topic based help 
<nixternal> well, mpt's spec is to rewrite or change the way we do the guides and all of our documentation for topic base
<nixternal> i think, to fully understand topic based help, that is good, we need to study ms technet and ms help
<nixternal> and possibly start a foundation that could eventually grow into something comparible one day
<LaserJock> well, I don't see a ms help as being very practical for us
<nixternal> the design and layout would be practical
<nixternal> as ms help is topic based help, the inventor of topic based help
<nixternal> if you do help in ms, you can go straight to the web, to technet, and get pretty darn good answers
<LaserJock> but do we have the manpower/time to have that much content
<nixternal> not at this time we don't
<LaserJock> topic based help is only helpful if it's pretty complete
<nixternal> in order to do topic based help that would really matter, beyond how to get mp3s working, we would need everyone in here full time
<LaserJock> so we need to be careful when looking at MS and OS X help systems
<nixternal> as it stands, the desktop guides, the server guide, and such can't be turned into topic based help, topic based documentation yes, but help no
<nixternal> what other topic based help systems are there besides those 2?
<nixternal> i mean that are as successfull
<nixternal> or complete
<LaserJock> I don't know of any that are successful, for me anyway :-)
<nixternal> heh
<LaserJock> it's hard for me
<LaserJock> as I've never found and computer help helpful
<nixternal> well, i know ms can answer a majority of the questions you throw at it
<LaserJock> I either use forums or books
<nixternal> the more advanced questions are covered in technet
<nixternal> i use google truthfully
<LaserJock> any of the ones I look for in MS end up in "Sorry dude, we can't help you"
<nixternal> hehe
<nixternal> you need to pay for the answer thats why
<nixternal> but for the general questions they have all of the answers
<LaserJock> I'll take your word for it then :-)
<nixternal> there is a link in mpt's spec, that covers a spec from 2005 concerning documentation, and there are a bunch of links that explain the importance and break down topic based help
<nixternal> i found a lot of good stuff there
* fumbalah tries to catch up
<nixternal> i don't think ditching docbook is the answer though, as it seems all of the major topic based help systems start from docbook and make their way to html, pdf, hlp, and chm files
<nixternal> which microsoft loosers know chm files
<nixternal> ;)
<nixternal> losers too
<fumbalah> nixternal: We should go all flash :_p
<nixternal> last time i flashed i went to jail
<nixternal> oh, flash, macromedia style
<nixternal> gotcha
<fumbalah> lol
<nixternal> truthfully, i hate flash
<fumbalah> Kill the joke :-p
<fumbalah> Anyone need anything proofread?
<crimsun> where would you like to start?
<crimsun> the entire tree needs to be proofread
<nixternal> lol
<fumbalah> The edgy tree i assume?
<nixternal> the entire tree needs 'svn rm *'
<fumbalah> is it really that bad?
<LaserJock> nixternal: MS and OS X don't have to worry about licenses or sharing, etc.
<nixternal> except for /teamstuff/book/*
<nixternal> ya LaserJock, which really makes it tough for us
<LaserJock> that's a motivation for ditching docbook
<fumbalah> Should I really just work my way through the tree?
<nixternal> i swore the recent talk was to switch to just 1 license, and now im seeing we need more
<nixternal> LaserJock: and go with what?
<LaserJock> project mallard I guess ;-)
<nixternal> haha
<nixternal> sorry, almost died laughing at that one
<nixternal> that is a 2 year old project that no one has done anything on really but create ideas
<LaserJock> the problem is that docbook docs assume relationships that don't work on a per-page basis
<fumbalah> well..is there a third option?
<LaserJock> you make a book or an article
<Burgundavia> docbook assumes books, not discrite bits of data
<fumbalah> Maybe do something completely new......
<LaserJock> fumbalah: except we don't really have time to do that and it would have to be know to the Gnome/KDE doc teams
<nixternal> DITA?
<nixternal> but that is docbook
<fumbalah> LaserJock: Ah, I didnt know
<LaserJock> HTML
<LaserJock> :-)
<fumbalah> I'm still new to all this
<fumbalah> so if i asked dumb questons ,sorry
<LaserJock> heh, no problem
<fumbalah> What would be the problem with seperating the documentation into a ubuntu and kubuntu doc team?
<Burgundavia> fumbalah: we are considering a new doc format, one that has been the brainchild of the lead GNOME doc editor for a few years
<LaserJock> fumbalah: we share a lot of common people and structure
<Burgundavia> fumbalah: we also have the issue of lack of people
<LaserJock> Burgundavia: but it hasn't materialized has it?
<Burgundavia> you should only split teams when they get too big
<fumbalah> Burgundavia: Makes sense,and ah LaserJock, makes sense too
<Burgundavia> no, Mallard has not yet materialized, likely due to lack of time on shauns part
<LaserJock> well, I don't see a need to split teams
<LaserJock> split repos maybe
<nixternal> why split repos?
<fumbalah> Burgundavia: I'm trying to help with the lack of people thing 
<Burgundavia> excellent
<nixternal> the doc team could use a nice staff of about 50 right now
<LaserJock> nixternal: because KDE docs our built and packaged differently
<fumbalah> How many do you have? 24 right?
<LaserJock> s/our/are/
<nixternal> 5
<LaserJock> fumbalah: haha, I wish
<nixternal> maybe 10
<fumbalah> wow, i thought there were more
<nixternal> hard actually, since a lot of people took edgy off
<fumbalah> You all feel free to use me where you need me please
<crimsun> I'd love to take a release 'off'
<nixternal> i know for edgy, LaserJock rocked out the pg, ubuntu stuff i don't know much about, kubuntu was robotgeek, trappist, jjesse, and myself, xubuntu i have no clue who rocked that
<nixternal> edgy was slow
<nixternal> mdke was on vacation during the freeze, which LaserJock busted his butt during
<nixternal> then mdke came back, and owned the translation stuff and rocked it all before release
<fumbalah> You all did a great job with it, i'll give you that, from what i've seen
<nixternal> well, edgy docs == dapper docs w/ edits which == breezy docs w/ edits 
<nixternal> so, as you can see, the current state of the docs are stale
<fumbalah> ah, yea
<fumbalah> Well. I hope to be an addition to your team sometime
<LaserJock> well dapper is a lot more then breezy w/ edits
<robotgeek> fumbalah: just dive right in
<LaserJock> but edgy didn't get much
<robotgeek> yeah, dapper kubuntu was nice
<fumbalah> robotgeek: I have been with the wiki
<robotgeek> edgy, i dropped the ball
<Burgundavia> edgy we all dropped the ball
<LaserJock> yep
<nixternal> big time
<LaserJock> but it happens
<fumbalah> Do you all each have specific sections you work on?
<Burgundavia> that reminds me, I have new book files sitting in my inbox
* fumbalah wanders over to the launchpad site
<LaserJock> fumbalah: usually we have a doc or two we work on primarily
<nixternal> not really fumbalah, we just jump in where we need it
<nixternal> but lke me, i spend my time with kubuntu and edubuntu docs
<crimsun> I offer moral support.
<fumbalah> ah, I think i'll eventually be hitting those mostly...Should I be concentratin on the wiki or the actual docs more?
<fumbalah> LaserJock/nixternal-Why does the launchpad site say 24 people then?
<nixternal> crimsun just switched to KDE and told me earlier what he really thought of GNOME (then again, this joke has been played out over 100048302843 times now)
<nixternal> there are 24 people on the team, but some come and go
<fumbalah> oh, i understand now
<crimsun> it's pretty clear what I think of all desktop environments
<fumbalah> but only like 10 working?
<nixternal> that art guy viper has lost his mind
<LaserJock> with any team it's important to distinguish the number of members with number of active members
<LaserJock> nixternal: where?
<nixternal> dude is a windows user, and now he is saying he is the artist-in-chief for gnewsense
<nixternal> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Viper550
<crimsun> regarding proofreading: trappist in the past has expressed interest in doing so
<nixternal> trappist is a writer i thought
<nixternal> he helps with KDE docs as well i believe
<LaserJock> he is mostly proofreading
<fumbalah> I'll do either, I think my proofreading is better then my writing
<nixternal> interesting
<nixternal> him and i were writing together on the kdg for edgy
<nixternal> i need my own proofreader
<fumbalah> Can I join the wiki forum group on launchpad without being a member of ubuntu?
<nixternal> yes fumbalah
<fumbalah> nixternal: Feel free to forward anything you need directly to me
<LaserJock> nixternal: GnewSense can have him ;-)
<nixternal> joining those little teams and contributing helps when it comes to ubuntu membership later down the road
<nixternal> gnewsense is way better than ututo though
<nixternal> i am using it now
<crimsun> is the former contributing back to ubuntu?
<LaserJock> do they even have enough people to do that?
<nixternal> heh, probably not because they are removing from ubuntu
<fumbalah> nixternal: alright, added myself to that team, pending approval i guess
<crimsun> I'm biased since I'm not involved in that project, but my [perhaps misled]  perspective feels that they've not expressed interest in working w/ ubuntu
<fumbalah> but yea, you all please feel free to have me proofread things directley
<nixternal> oh ya, forgot about that being moderated...as long as you have some edits out there and know moinmoin Burg usually has no problem authorizing you
<nixternal> or approving you rather
<nixternal> crimsun: i really don't know, as they are paid by rms now, why contribute back to us
<GrantG> fumbalah, the wiki forum project has pretty much ground to a halt in recent months
<fumbalah> GrantG: Really, why?
<LaserJock> crimsun: do they have anything to contribute?
<crimsun> if so, that's a shame, because docs are really where they could shine
<fumbalah> nixternal: I have a really stupid question about pgp keys
<nixternal> oh, fumbalah you whould have joined the wiki team
<nixternal> haha
<GrantG> fumbalah, my guess would be lack of interest
<fumbalah> nixternal: why you lauging?
<crimsun> LaserJock: I can think of several instances of restricted-stripped use cases
<nixternal> i didn't see wiki forum
<nixternal> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/GnuPrivacyGuard
<fumbalah> I believe I applied for both
<nixternal> i was wrong
<nixternal> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/GnuPrivacyGuardHowto
<nixternal> there you go
<LaserJock> crimsun: k
<LaserJock> hmmm, why does that have a Howto on the end of it?
<GrantG> there's a long and interesting past between the doc team and the udsf, the wiki forum team was an attempt to bring the two together
<GrantG> but didn't quite take off
<LaserJock> well, isn't the current problem the licensing?
<nixternal> LaserJock: i didn't write it, but if someone around here did, it would be to get under the bossmans skin
<nixternal> haha
<LaserJock> heh
<nixternal> LaserJock: i tried working with the udsf and i got 1 person to say i could transfer from udsf to ours, the rest were about as useless as the docs i seen
<GrantG> LaserJock, the licensing problem was worked around, the main problem was lack of workers to get it going
<GrantG> yes gaining permission from the original author was problematic
<nixternal> at one point i had everyone of the docs ont he list out waiting for approval from the writer, most of them didn't answer, or the other ones didn't want their docs apart of ours
<GrantG> if not nigh impossible
<nixternal> exactly GrantG
<GrantG> at least someone tried nixternal 
<crimsun> when's the next docteam meeting?
<LaserJock> well, that's why license compatibility would be nice
<nixternal> there were a couple of us that tried, but didn't seem to get anywhere with it
<LaserJock> crimsun: when one is scheduled I think
<crimsun> (topic link is outdated; fridge doesn't list one)
<nixternal> hahahahha
<nixternal> crimsun: since i have been around here now, for almost a year, i think there has been 2 meetings
<nixternal> and one was for licensing
<GrantG> yes nixternal, I gave it my best but you and I couldn't do it on our own
<GrantG> it needed more interest
<nixternal> GrantG: ya, there wasn't many of us trying, i do know that
<GrantG> :)
<LaserJock> well, it was a doc-wide problem for Edgy
<LaserJock> just not enough effort put in
<fumbalah> hmm, well, hopefully i'll get approved for at least the wiki team
<crimsun> what are the top issues for feisty?
<LaserJock> 1) getting existing docs in shape
<nixternal> if we did CC-by-SA on the wiki, then we could copy the udsf
<LaserJock> 2) making sure Ubuntu book is properly integrated
<nixternal> otherwise we have to get permission, which is like trying to pull teeth on a tiger that isn't knocked out
<LaserJock> 3) decide on topic-based help
<LaserJock> 4) decide if we wan to continue lulu.com
<LaserJock> 5) decide if we want any new docs
<LaserJock> 6) get our butts and gear and start writing
<LaserJock> s/and/in/
<nixternal> well, i know jjesse and i have talked about rewriting kubuntu docs, and if everything stays the same, we probably will, implementing the book and it's strucuter more than likely
<nixternal> also, the Kubuntu about and release notes are going to be done with kubuntu-devel now as it will be implemented into ubiquity
<fumbalah> Anyone feel like signing my key? As I dont have it signed by anyone yet?
<nixternal> speaking of gNewSense, --> ompaul is one of their devs
<nixternal> he is the reason i tried it out actually
<robotgeek> fumbalah: usually, the key is signed by someone you meet
<crimsun> fumbalah: keysigning protocol normally requires a face-to-face meeting, with verification
<nixternal> fumbalah: i don't even think my key is signed by anyone either
<Madpilot> fumbalah, a signed key isn't totally needed; mine remains unsigned
<nixternal> maybe a couple of people from lug meetings and what not
<fumbalah> alright
<nixternal> i have 2 sigs
<robotgeek> fumbalah: people meet up for beer or so just to sign keys :)
<nixternal> hahaha
<nixternal> holy cow im a looser
<fumbalah> Lets meet up for beer
<nixternal> beer
<nixternal> who wants to meet up for beer?
<nixternal> robotgeek: desktop guide rewrite for edgy, you up for it?
<nixternal> since that is your baby
<nixternal> haha
<nixternal> feisty rather
<LaserJock> heh
<LaserJock> I didn't even notice that
<robotgeek> nixternal: sure, now that i have a machine + net
<nixternal> woohoo
<fumbalah> I call proofreading duties on at least part of it
<nixternal> i figure, maybe take a look at the ubuntu book structure, and maybe work off it, just kubuntus tyle of course
<LaserJock> it'd be nice to have more spec-like plans for docs
<LaserJock> we've kinda just been doing thing haphazardly, IMO
<nixternal> LaserJock: jjesse had started some for kbuntu, but they got hammered into ubiquity specs pretty much, except of course for the kdg
<crimsun> well, let us spec some, then
<LaserJock> if we actually write down some more detailed plans
<LaserJock> then pretty much anybody can jump in and start working
<nixternal> i have a layout i came up with that is a draft for the kubuntu desktop guide, i could spec that, and then have robotgeek, jjesse, and myself work with it maybe
<nixternal> robotgeek: how does that sound to you?
<crimsun> nixternal: that would be swell
<robotgeek> nixternal: sounds great!
<fumbalah> Another dumb question
<nixternal> ya, let me fire that up and get it started
<fumbalah> What do you all mean by spec?
<nixternal> specifications that we develop from
<LaserJock> for the packaging guide I use: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuPackagingGuide
<nixternal> it is the guiding factor of each project
<LaserJock> fumbalah: specifications are what drive most of the Ubuntu development
<robotgeek> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SpecSpec fumbalah 
<robotgeek> that's a spec on spec :)
<fumbalah> Thanks again :)
<crimsun> cf. https://features.launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/feisty/+specs as well
<fumbalah> I'm having to fill myself in as i go
<LaserJock> but again, if we're going to completely restructure the Ubuntu docs into this topic-based-help then we need to decide that first
<robotgeek> we need to get in touch with kde upstream first. 
<fumbalah> it all makes sense now
<robotgeek> our docbook foo is already confusing enough!
<fumbalah> I'll try and quit asking the stupid questions
<crimsun> there are no stupid questions, only unbearable answers
<fumbalah> lol
<LaserJock> fumbalah: nah, keep then coming
<robotgeek> hmm, i heard a variation on southpark, lol
<fumbalah> LaserJock: I think that's it for now. I just want to help you all our however possible
<fumbalah> here's a not stupid question...but, who do I need to know in way of contacts?
<fumbalah> Like are their any important people I need in my contact list?
<robotgeek> ubuntu-doc list :)
<fumbalah> Already there :-)
<fumbalah> I meant any individuals?
<robotgeek> yippee. tv works in linux :)
<robotgeek> sorry, i could not contain my joy :)
<LaserJock> mdke aka Matthew East is our semi official leader
<fumbalah> Alrighty
<fumbalah> And i got nixternal
<fumbalah> So what are you all working on with fiesty?
* fumbalah pokes you all
<robotgeek> fumbalah: well, we should plan out something.
<fumbalah> robotgeek: What should we plan out?
<robotgeek> fumbalah: nixternal was about to post a spec on documentation (kubuntu) for edgy
<fumbalah> fiesty?
<crimsun> (yes, feisty)
<robotgeek> err, yews
<fumbalah> lol
* robotgeek is stuck in lalaland
<fumbalah> lol
<fumbalah> I'll be interested to read it
<nixternal> https://features.launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/kubuntu-desktop-guide
<fumbalah> nixternal: My email account is slowly not looking so empty
<nixternal> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KubuntuDesktopGuide
<nixternal> it will fill up eventually ;)
<fumbalah> lol,slowly but surely
<fumbalah> Those specs are really useful
<fumbalah> I found out everything I didnt understand
<nixternal> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KubuntuDesktopGuide/Structure
<nixternal> that is a quick structure that i came up with there
<nixternal> actually i didn't come up with it, i stole/borrowed it from the book
<fumbalah> looks good
<fumbalah> at least from my point of view
<nixternal> it looks huge actually
<fumbalah> well, you could nix the extras section and merge it into the using section
<fumbalah> that would cut down on length
<nixternal> well, i threw the extras in there for extra programs which aren't installed by default that someone might be looking for
<nixternal> especially for video editing
<nixternal> which, kdenlive might be the new video editor for 7.04 hopefully
<fumbalah> nixternal: maybe we could have at least that part of the documentation elsewwhere, besides the book, and have it mentioned where it is
<nixternal> who would approve that spec btw?
<nixternal> another reason i like it long that way, is because it will cause a greater Switching from Windows guide to be created as well
<nixternal> which I need to spec that, or rework the old spec as well
<nixternal> plus, im sure robotgeek or jjesse will come up with some of their magic as well, since they are the seasoned veterans
<fumbalah> nixternal: how does the approval procces work? does someone from the ubuntu comunity will approve it
<nixternal> im guessing probably mdke maybe, but i know mpt can and more than likely will
<nixternal> or JR of course
<fumbalah> how does it work though? does someone higher up have to approve?
<nixternal> yes
<nixternal> since a kdg rewrite would be a large job
<fumbalah> ah
<fumbalah> makes sense
<fumbalah> well, I'll keep an eye out, let me know where you all need help
<nixternal> once it gets going, we will probably setup a table to track progress and hand out portions (hopefully)
<fumbalah> alrighty...sweet
<robotgeek> fumbalah: once we have it structured, you can pick up stuff you are comfortable with
<fumbalah> robotgeek: cool
<fumbalah> I'll probably write a little, but i'd mostly like to proofread for you all
<robotgeek> it might take you a bit of time to get started with docbook, but we will be around
<robotgeek> that would be great. it would be nice to have a consistent writing style
<nixternal> you know what robotgeek, i recently met a guy who just switched to kubuntu or ubuntu, and he is a pro tech writer that was interested..i need to get in contact with him and check his status
<nixternal> i seen some of his work at a lug or loco meeting..good stuff, and he is doing topic based stuff i believe as well, as his work is with the proprietary junk
<robotgeek> nixternal: that would be great, to have inputs
<fumbalah> robotgeek: yea, i figured it would...but I'd be glad to do more perminate proofreading then writing...It'd be easier on everyone i think
<robotgeek> fumbalah: when i meant consistent writing style, i meant that you would ensure that :)
<nixternal> i need to finish the Karbon 14 docs for the KDE repos as well one of these days
<robotgeek> you are more than welcome to pick and choose what you want to work on. there is enough of work for all :)
<robotgeek> what is karbon?
* robotgeek just uses a few apps on linux. :)
<fumbalah> robotgeek: ah, I know that,but i guess i dont mind a little direction occasionaly
<fumbalah> at least at first a little easier to be told what to do
<nixternal> karbon is the koffice inkscape
<nixternal> does svgs and all that
<nixternal> pretty nifty program actually
<robotgeek> fumbalah: sure, not an issue. there is always someone on irc
<fumbalah> yea
<fumbalah> like, if you tell me to proofread x,y,z..eventually aftera little bit i'll pick up a,b,c by myself
<robotgeek> fumbalah: sounds great!
<fumbalah> I'm new as you know,so a little direction i wouldnt mind
<fumbalah> robotgeek: anything you need me to proofread now?
<robotgeek> fumbalah: hmm, i dont think we have anything up currently. 
<fumbalah> robotgeek: I meant that you may be doing for edgy or anything?
<nixternal> fumbalah: if you would like, go through the Kubuntu Desktop Guide, and if you find major issues, document them and let me know..i need to build and updated package here soon
<nixternal> the edgy guide that is
<fumbalah> alrighty
<fumbalah> Will do
<robotgeek> writing documentation has made me a better reader
<nixternal> i have some of the fixes already that have bugs..actually, best thing to do, and would kick up your karma level, create bugs for the "major errors" if you find them
<robotgeek> i now read the manuals for everything!
<nixternal> don't file a bug for each grammatical issue or spelling error, but let me know those as well
<nixternal> i have everything from lulu
<nixternal> well dapper stuff is all lulu
<fumbalah> alrighty, so i'm looking for like, errors in instructions and such
<fumbalah> and then let you know grammatical erros seperatley?
<nixternal> ya, look for "Applications -> Submenu -> Menu Item"
<nixternal> hehe, that isn't supposed to be in there
<fumbalah> Alrighty
<fumbalah> I'll dig into that first thing into the morning
<fumbalah> Is karma important on launchpad?
<robotgeek> only if you are into that kind of a thing. mostly showoff :)
<nixternal> karma is always important, especially when you are going for membership
<nixternal> they like to look at it
<nixternal> hey, im over a million ;)
<nixternal> i worked hard for that
<robotgeek> nixternal: showoff :)
<nixternal> hehe
<nixternal> Burgundavia is a showoff, he made the top contrib list, i can't do that
<robotgeek> 723563 , and i havent done a thing in while
<Burgundavia> I made the top contrib list?
<fumbalah> nixternal: I guess i need to get some karma then, especially wanting membership
<nixternal> ya Burgundavia, for specs
<nixternal> you aren't there now, but you were in it for a while
<Burgundavia> ah, right
<Burgundavia> how long ago was this?
<fumbalah> nixternal: How long did you work for the project before you worked for the project?
<fumbalah> and why did you go into documentatiion?
<nixternal> a while
<nixternal> a good 6 months im sure
<Burgundavia> for me, 2 months
<nixternal> but i was back and forth between Ubuntu and Mepis
<nixternal> I came to Ubuntu full time after Mepis did as well ;)
<Burgundavia> then I shipped myself to Mataro in Dec 2004
<nixternal> i have been playing with Slackware 11 here, and I have to say they did one heck of a job on it
<nixternal> Slackware is that silent anti-newb distro which is damn good
<fumbalah> slackware is lovely
<fumbalah> if you know what you are doing
<nixternal> tar -zxvf and tar -xvjf
<nixternal> ./configure && make && make install
<nixternal> granted, apt-get install woohoo is much better
<nixternal> but i would rather tarball it than rpm it any day of the week now
<fumbalah> its time for sleep
<fumbalah> Night yall, thanks again for all your help
<nixternal> g'nite
<nixternal> np
<nixternal> im passing out too
<robotgeek> hmm, as soon as i get xml tv time running
<robotgeek> i'm out too
<nixternal> hehe, g'nite
<robotgeek> damn, linux plays tv very nicely. if only this motherboard was not borked, i would be fine
<robotgeek> does anyone know offhand how we get translations from gnome (iuf we do, at all?)
<Burgundavia> for which?
<robotgeek> Burgundavia: say if there already have been translations for gnome, do they get automatically updated in rosetta
<robotgeek> err, imported
<Burgundavia> afaik, yes
<robotgeek> okay, thanks. 
<fumbalah> good morning
<fumbalah> nixternal or robotgeek, you around?
<fumbalah> or anyone i guess involved with the project
<mdke> well that's a lot of highlights
<mdke> Burgundavia: pong
<mdke> fumbalah: what's up?>
<fumbalah> mdke: Are you still around?
<fumbalah> or nixternal or robotgeek, just have a question about submitting a bug
<pygi> fumbalah: just shoot
<fumbalah> I'm proofreading the Desktop Guide for nixternal, and I am having trouble figuring out what package to select when submitting the bug report
<nixternal> kubuntu-docs
<fumbalah> Alright
<fumbalah> Thanks
<fumbalah> nixternal: https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/kubuntu-docs/+bug/71518
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 71518 in kubuntu-docs "Getting Kubuntu error" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  
<nixternal> Ubugtu will spit all doc bugs out here anywho ;)
<fumbalah> oh, that works too :)
<fumbalah> Will I be notified by email or something when the bug status is changed?
<nixternal> i believe so
<fumbalah> Alright
* fumbalah keeps reading
<fumbalah> is that bug report in the right format or do I need to include anything else?
<nixternal> it works
<nixternal> you have the problem, and the solution, can't ask for mre
<nixternal> mroe
<fumbalah> ok,and lol on the typos
<Ubugtu> New bug: #71518 in kubuntu-docs "Getting Kubuntu error" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/71518
<fumbalah> Ubugtu, that's a cute name
<fumbalah> hmm...I need a  good name for a domain
<fumbalah> nixternal: What if I have more of a suggestion then a "bug"
<fumbalah> or anyone can answer that for that matter
<dsas> fumbalah: If it's an idea to do big changes rather than bugs you probably want to send an email to the list
<dsas> fumbalah: Or maybe create a wikipage detailing the idea and sending the url to the list, whichever is most apt
<fumbalah> dsas: Its just rewording something to make it fit gramatically better then it already does
<dsas> fumbalah: Grammatical awkwardness is probably a bug. 
<fumbalah> Alright, thanks
<fumbalah> You all are really helpful :)
<dsas> fumbalah: If you have suggestions then please list it with the bug report, you can also check the xml out, make the correction and mail the patch to the list :)
<fumbalah> Alrighty
<fumbalah> I'm new, so I'm not really in the loop with things
<dsas> fumbalah: It's ok, we were all new once.
<nixternal> im still new ;)
<nixternal> with a borked kontact right now
* dsas trolls nixternal about gnome
<nixternal> why, so i can use that garbage called evolution? or better yet, thurderbird
<fumbalah> nixternal: why cant you use thunderbird anyway?
* dsas bashes evolutions too
<nixternal> thunderbird is just as bad as evolution
<Ubugtu> New bug: #71524 in kubuntu-docs "Video Gramatical Awkwardness" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/71524
<nixternal> for me, it is either Kontact/KMail or Mutt
<nixternal> jeesh, slow down, that is all me right there ;)
<nixternal> hehe
<dsas> thunderbird is ok. to be honest it's several years since I tried KDE :)
<fumbalah> lol, nixternal, webmail :-p
<GrantG> gmail suits me just fine
<fumbalah> How do I get karma?
<GrantG> fumbalah, usually by helping with a bug or doing some translating
<fumbalah> Alrighty
* fumbalah needs a new mouse and keyboard for his home officec
<dsas> fumbalah: Nearly everything you do on launchpad gets you karma
<fumbalah> Alrighty
<fumbalah> Anything else I need to know, I'm just trying to do everything right
<fumbalah> Does anyone here use typo as a blog system?
<mdke> fumbalah: only now
<fumbalah> mdke: I had everyting explained to me I think
<mdke> jolly good
<fumbalah> yup, working my way through the desktop guide as we speak
<Ubugtu> New bug: #71539 in kubuntu-docs "Desktop Tricks" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/71539
<fumbalah> That one took a little while to show up
<fumbalah> How come when I open the xml files from svn, I dont have the full guide
<mdke> fumbalah: you have to open desktopguide.xml
<mdke> that's the base file with all the chapters included
<fumbalah> alrighty
<fumbalah> I still dont understand, I open it up and all I see are links to other things
<Burgundavia> mdke: book files. I have going to be doing some edits to them
<mdke> Burgundavia: ok?
<mdke> fumbalah: how are you opening them?
<fumbalah> mdke: bluefish
<Burgundavia> mdke: should I edit those .doc files or the html?
<nixternal> fumbalah: look at the top of each help page in html or in khelpcenter, it will tell you the file name that the page belongs to
<nixternal> oy mdke, how is the weekend?
<fumbalah> alrighty
<fumbalah> Cause I want to start submitting patches with the bugs
<nixternal> or was i guess i should say now
<mdke> fumbalah: bluefish doesn't convert the xml, that's the source you see. So there are lots of files included into desktopguide.xml
<mdke> open the appropriate one to see the relevant chapter
<mdke> Burgundavia: what html?
<Burgundavia> mdke: the stuff on help.ubuntu.com
<mdke> Burgundavia: that's just the version that was in example-content. Are you going to be editing both
<Burgundavia> I would rrather edit one
<mdke> then they will get out of sync
<mdke> I will bbl
<Burgundavia> can we generate one from the other?
<tonyyarusso> Has anyone else noticed that the search bar on w.u.c will include results from h.u.c, but not the other way around?
<Burgundavia> yes, because of the refreshes
<tonyyarusso> Refreshes?
<Burgundavia> the old pages left behind
<tonyyarusso> Oh
<Burgundavia> mdke: that edithowto doesn't tell me where the pages are
<tonyyarusso> Wouldn't it be nice for them to both talk to each other though?  I get confused when I click a link to h.u.c and then can't get back.
<Burgundavia> yes it would
<Burgundavia> there is probably a way
<Burgundavia> although w.u.c is not aimed at end users
<tonyyarusso> Um, it's not?
<Burgundavia> no
<Burgundavia> it is aimed at developers and other interested parties
<tonyyarusso> Ah, I must be an "other interested party" then ;)
<Burgundavia> as am I
<mdke> Burgundavia: see the parent page
<Burgundavia> right
<mdke> Burgundavia: re: the book, neither is generated, you can just edit it and get it copied to the example-content package and the website, if applicable
<Burgundavia> hmm, ok
#ubuntu-doc 2007-11-05
<mpt> hi jjesse
<jjesse> grin that was a late delay :)
<posingaspopular> how long should bzr take to fetch the hardy docs?
<mdke> posingaspopular: the first time will take a while, unless you speed it up with one of the methods described on the Repository page
<popey> mdke: yes
<mdke> hiya :)
<mdke> popey: was looking for you to talk through that forum poll of yours rather than play email ping pong
<popey> hi
<popey> it was created after a discussion at UDS
<mdke> did you see my last one?
<popey> just looking now
<popey> my goal was not to clarify the difference between w.u.c / h.u.c / h.u.c/c
<popey> it was merely to determine (finger in the air style) if people on the forums had some reason for not putting how-tos on the wiki
<mdke> ah, so it's about help
<popey> the discussion we had at UDS was around getting the how-tos in a pristine state (Jonos suggestion)
<mdke> why do you say "wiki.ubuntu.com"?
<mdke> it sounded to me that it's about the development wiki
<popey> because we were talking about how-tos that were under development
<mdke> ah, there may be a misunderstanding here
<popey> well, i didn't want to make the question overly long and complex
<popey> i suspect that may be the case, yes
<mdke> wiki.ubuntu.com isn't for howtos that are under development... it's for material relating to the development of Ubuntu. All help goes on h.u.c
<popey> heh
<mdke> (regardless of how evolved it is)
<popey> well I have been using ubuntu for years and _I_ didn't know that
<popey> so that's definately highlighted an issue
<mdke> ok, so you could amend the poll to point at the help wiki :)
<mdke> but seriously, this issue with forum howtos has been discussed to death in the past, you'll find countless threads about it
<popey> i also note that nobody else in the room knew that either
<popey> this isn't my puppy
<popey> i was merely taking part in a discussion at UDS
<mdke> ah, I'm picking on you because you are the only one with the ability to clarify the poll :)
<popey> and the poll was just used as a general way of adding to the discussion
<popey> sure
<mdke> anyhow, we're well aware of this issue about the distinction, we have specs about it
<popey> ok
<mdke> ideas definitely welcome on how to improve things - ImproveWebsiteStructure is the spec
<mdke> but as for the forum, we have this https://help.ubuntu.com/community/forum. Anything more has proved simply impossibile - I've spent so many hours discussing this one and there is unlikely to be any convergence. I can find the threads if you're interested but a search should turn them up
<popey> the idea behind the discussion at UDS was basically "some of us would take forum how tos and tag them as 'golden' which would then be made read only"
<popey> however, once jono found out two things this was somewhat deflated:-
<popey> 1) There are very few how-tos on the forums
<popey> 2) The ones that are there are riddled with crack like "sudo rm -fr *" and "sudo su"
<popey> (the first ones I found had those in)
<popey> my assertion was that they should be moved to the wiki so they can be cleaned up, but that met with much opposition
<mdke> it's currently the case
<mdke> (as per the community/forum link above)
<mdke> I suspect there is quite a lot of crack on the help wiki too, don't forget
<popey> well sure, but anyone can edit that when they find it
<mdke> btw I'm quite surprised no one at UDS knew about the distinction, I agree that there are confusing aspects, but for those contributing a lot, it's described in the first paragraph of the front page
<popey> you can't edit a forum post, but you can add to the zillions of comments
<mdke> popey: very true. That's the advantage of moving it
<popey> i will clarify with the guys what we have discussed, thanks mdke
<mdke> I think I'll email jono to discuss, we might be able to drive that spec out of its current hibernation
<mdke> i'm happy to hear that there is interest around :)
<mdke> popey: who else do you think might be interested?
<popey> will cc you on the mail so you find out :)
<mdke> thanks
<mdke> the spec is quite controversial since it includes renaming wiki.ubuntu.com, so wide interest will help :)
<popey> :)
<mdke> popey: one more page of interest is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/IndependentDocEfforts, slightly related
<popey> sent
<mdke> thanks a lot
<mdke> good, Mike
<popey> :)
<michaelramm> Question: on the Wiki, is there a way to NOT have a link added to the page when it is added automatically?
<michaelramm> A buddy of mine in our LoCo has an IRC handle of Pr0nStrGeek and when I add that to the wiki, it adds a link...I don't want a link there.
<ubotu> New bug: #160213 in ubuntu-doc "Broken link:http://doc.gwos.org/index.php/Understanding_fstab" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/160213
<popey> michaelramm: you could make it link to the persons page on launchpad?
<popey> michaelramm: however you can just use two backticks around a wikiname to prevent it being a link
<popey> ` being a backtick
<michaelramm> popey: thanks, I don't know if they have set up their LP page yet
<LaserJock> hola all
<mdke> hiya LaserJock
<dappermuis> mdke, question - are you more involved with the ubuntu or kubuntu documentation?
<mdke> dappermuis: me personally?
<dappermuis> mdke: yes
<mdke> I only work on Ubuntu documentation
<LaserJock> mdke: interesting thread on the wiki
<mdke> nixternal is the main man for kubuntu, if you're interested in that side of things
<mdke> LaserJock: yep
<dappermuis> mdke, yes, i have been in contact with nixternal in the past - i don't have much time on my hands to get things done though :/
<mdke> I know that feeling
<nixternal> dappermuis: are you following me around? :p
<dappermuis> nixternal: lol, just observing
<dappermuis> wanna discuss some things with you though
<LaserJock> renaming help.u.c is a really bad idea
<dappermuis> mainly related to jucato's blog post
<mdke> LaserJock: the spec is about renaming wiki.u.c rather than help
<LaserJock> nixternal: yo, how you doin'?
<nixternal> yo yo
<LaserJock> mdke: right, although teams.u.c is a bad idea too
<nixternal> what's up homeskillet <- mdke actually looked that word up and it is a real word, kind of :)
<mdke> LaserJock: I like dev myself
<nixternal> dappermuis: oh man, not Jucato :)
<dappermuis> nixternal, lol - his post was relevant though. it was something i had been thinking about for quite a while, though more specifically the docs aspect of things
<nixternal> if you have a better idea on the docs, then I am all ears!
<dappermuis> oooh, when did the kubuntu wiki get the makeover? that was one thing which was really getting to me before
<LaserJock> mdke: I was thinking devel. I think perhaps dev. might sound like it's only for devs
<mdke> LaserJock: very good point.
<mdke> tbh I have no feel for how likely it would be to get this change past the dev team without huge outcry
<mdke> if the spec is well written enough, you never know, I suppose
<LaserJock> tbh I don't think the name matters
<LaserJock> what matters is the content
<LaserJock> you can call it thisisforspecanddevelopmentwork.u.c and people won't care
<mdke> do you have more ideas about how to make the distinction?
<mdke> i do think people notice urls, myself
<LaserJock> theming/branding
<nixternal> devwiki.ubuntu.com
<LaserJock> yes, they will notice URLs that they can distinguish between
<mdke> yes, hence the need to match the url with the aim of the site
<dsas> well the old name will have to be left as an alias anyway, how big can be kicked?
<dsas> how big a fuss
<mdke> sure, it would be redirected
<mdke> but people don't like change to the status quo. Anyone LaserJock is right, themeing is important too
<mdke> anyway*
<somerville32> hehe
<LaserJock> mdke: well, what I'm saying is, can people really distinguish between a dev wiki and a help wiki?
<LaserJock> I'm saying that you can have the perfect URLs, but if people don't have the info to judge which one they want to us then it's no help
<somerville32> And the url helps give that information
<LaserJock> no
<LaserJock> what I'm saying is that people can perfectly have the information
<LaserJock> and still not put it in the right place
<somerville32> windows.com vs. ubuntu.com provides a lot of context for what might be on those pages.
<LaserJock> bah
<LaserJock> that's not what I'm saying
<LaserJock> I'm saying that what we need to give users is information to judge where to look/contribute
<LaserJock> and you can't get that out of a URL
<somerville32> I can. dev.ubuntu.com and help.ubuntu.com give me two very different impressions
<mdke> LaserJock: it's a question of degree between what you and somerville32 are saying
<somerville32> and without knowing knowing help.ubuntu.com exists, I might even look there (and thats actually how I found it).
<mdke> the basic information can be given by the url; enough to bring a massive improvement
<mdke> but obviously it's not enough, we need to do more as well
<jjesse> hello
<mdke> hi jjesse
<jjesse> hello matt missed you at UDS
<mdke> cos I wasn't there
<mdke> :p
<jjesse> i know, i meant you were missed
<mdke> just ribbing
<mdke> it would be fun to go to one of those
<jjesse> lots of doc team related discussion
 * mdke nods
<jjesse> bettween the server guys and the training people
<michaelramm> as a new user of Ubuntu, I would never start looking for help in dev.ubuntu.com
<mdke> michaelramm: that's good :)
<michaelramm> I would *assume* that was the more technical side that I did not have a care to look at
 * michaelramm catching up on the email flury today
 * jjesse is having problems w/ his email and once again resumes to kicking things
<somerville32> Unless dev means help in some foreign language, than I think it'll be a good move. I just question how much it is needed because I've never heard people complain before.
<michaelramm> i like teams.u.c but would assume that was another pointer to LoCos
<somerville32> LoCo pages would be there too
<jjesse> whats' the topic?
<mdke> somerville32: it's a massive problem. As popey pointed out, even people like himself and jono weren't aware of the distinction
<michaelramm> contribute and community are good, IMHO
<mdke> jjesse: wiki:ImproveWebsiteStructure
<dappermuis> erm, what's the package which has the kdevelop docs?
<somerville32> mdke, You're right. I didn't think like that.
<mdke> michaelramm: too long
<jjesse> oh the spec
<michaelramm> mdke: too long, but right on target
<somerville32> teams.ubuntu.com sound good to me
<mdke> michaelramm: yes, that's what the spec says too :)
<michaelramm> once you get there, you will remember it
<michaelramm> i know
<michaelramm> right now when I need to go to wiki.u.c, i type wik and scroll down the list of my recent visits
<michaelramm> most of my visits are to my loco page, but I can quickly get to another page, or ANY page on wiki.ubuntu.com very quickly
<nixternal> ubw:WikiPage for w.u.c and ubh:WikiPage for h.u.c/community
 * nixternal hugs konqueror
<mdke> but it is uncomfortable to type long urls
<somerville32> There is a recent visits?
<mdke> nixternal: whoosh, that's awesome
<mdke> somerville32: in your browser history
<michaelramm> mdke: for you
<michaelramm> maybe not for all
<michaelramm> somerville32: what mske said
<michaelramm> mdke*
<mdke> michaelramm: well I count myself as quite a good typer, but it still takes me longer to write "community" than it does to write "dev"
<nixternal> gg:search_term to google it, lp:app to search for a project on LP, and so on, and I can create as many as I want...dunno if you can do that with FF or similar, but it is sweet to have
<somerville32> nixternal, you can
<mdke> very cool
<mdke> ooh
<nixternal> somerville32: do tell
<michaelramm> mdke: sure, but once you have built your browser history, you will only need to type com, and scroll down
<nixternal> because I know people who are dying for it
<nixternal> I know you can make FF understand help:/ urls for our documentation
<mdke> michaelramm: I'm not talking about browsers, I'm talking about writing urls in other contexts, like when writing links in emails, blog posts, bug reports etc
<somerville32> nixternal, It has something to do with bookmarks
<michaelramm> mdke: also remember "Who is the target audience?"
<nixternal> devwiki for dev stuff, and docwiki for doc stuff?
<mdke> michaelramm: for the development wiki, it's people who write a lot of emails and bug reports :D
<michaelramm> dev wiki = current wiki.u.c?
<popey> yes michaelramm
<mdke> yes
<somerville32> I do more reading e-mails than writing myself, lol
<popey> evening mdke
<mdke> hiya popey
<somerville32> I have roughly 4k pending
<mdke> heh
<mdke> my boss has around 10,000 unread emails at any one time. I like to keep mine in single figures if possible
<michaelramm> ok, then why is all of the LoCo stuff housed there? OR what kind of dev are we talking about?
<michaelramm> technical ubuntu development or ubuntu community development?
<mdke> michaelramm: development in the broadest possible sense
<jjesse> another one would be server.ubuntu.com where the server team would dev there stuff and help for the server team would go there
<jjesse> there was some discussion at UDS at creating a server.ubuntu.com
<popey> developing how-tos ;) ?
<mdke> jjesse: ouch
 * mdke slaps popey 
<popey> :)
<jjesse> mdke: well didn't know what exactly the address would be but something similar to that
<somerville32> I like teams.wiki.com
<mdke> jjesse: if every team goes and starts their own website we're going to have chaos, divergence, and general nightmares
 * somerville32 agrees.
<nixternal> mdke: wth does your boss do that he has 10,000 unread emails? that would drive me up a wall
<mdke> had a similar issue with the education side of things
<somerville32> And why does the server team need their own wiki? :/
<nixternal> I cry when I have 300
<jjesse> mdke: i agree and understand
<somerville32> nixternal, How do you manage that?!
<mdke> nixternal: yeah. He has people who read em for him I guess
<somerville32> I get like a million ubuntu e-mails a day
<nixternal> with my eyes closed
<jjesse> somerville32: the discussion per my email to the list is they are looking for more control ove r the server docs
<dsas> nixternal: For firefox in the bookmark just put %s where you want the search term to be put.
<jjesse> there seems to be a the need for a higher standard in server related help
<michaelramm> Inbox Zero by Merlin Mann...bouz...it will do wonders for you
<mdke> jjesse: I think the concern is misplaced, but I will respond on the list. And anyway there are loads of ways to address it
<nixternal> dsas: rock on! is that in our documentation? if not, I suggest we get it in there under "tricks and tips" or whatever
<popey> higher standard!?
<jjesse> as if there is this random doc that tells you how to setup a server and it crashes and causes problems who do you blame?
<popey> thats a bit cheeky
<jjesse> popey: well "standard" is not the right term
<nixternal> blame mdke! I am tired of being blamed :)
<mdke> jjesse: you blame the absence of quality assurance in the wiki
<mdke> see? everything comes down to these two specs
<popey> every team would like more, higher quality docs
<somerville32> I think that help.u.c's front page needs a big fat uplift
<mdke> EVERYTHING!!! mwaaaa
<nixternal> mdke: you know who might be a good one to talk to about wiki qa...mako
<mdke> nixternal: yes, true
<nixternal> he might have some ideas from wikipedia
<jjesse> mdke: i agree but if i'm at an enterprise that installs ubuntu and follows a document i want to know there is a higher quality or some qa going int o the docs
<mdke> jjesse: that's just what I said...
<dsas> nixternal: Oh, and you have to specify a 'keyword' to use, I doubt it's in the Ubuntu docs.
<somerville32> jjesse, Only an idiot would follow a wiki document in an enterprise setting :P
<nixternal> jjesse: and that is something we need to work on..we are a bunch of volunteers, and wiki qa isn't the funnest job, although there are people who love to do it
 * mdke nods at everyone
<jjesse> somerville32: i agree that only an idiot would follow a guide like that but it might/ or may have already happend
 * jjesse nods at nixternal
<nixternal> I can guarantee it has happened
<somerville32> I don't think we've had this much discussion in this chatroom for awhile :P
<nixternal> heh, that wasn't off-topic at least
<jjesse> its nice we should have it more often
<mdke> jjesse: tbh, I think everything is covered by the HelpWikiQualityAssurance spec, but if it isn't, I'd be interested to hear.
<nixternal> no doubt, I feel like we are accomplishing something here
<jjesse> mdke: i would agree that i think it is covered by that spec
<mdke> it would be good to get the server team involved with that
<LaserJock> I don't like teams.u.c
<sommer> hey all, I don't think the wiki naming question is covered in the spec.
<popey> i dont either
<mdke> maybe there is someone there who can get to grips with the moin code
<jjesse> mdke: well i'm now on the server team :)
<LaserJock> I think it could even be worse than wiki.
<jjesse> after all the time i spent at UDS w/ them
<jjesse> also sommer is a part of the server team
<mdke> sommer: huh?
<mdke> which spec, and which question?
<sommer> sorry the HelpWikiQualityAssurance one
<sommer> or is that part covered by another spec?
<mdke> sommer: right, it's a separate spec. See my email
<jjesse> ImproveWebsiteStructure
<LaserJock> has anybody looked at how other distro's handle this sort of thing?
<LaserJock> gah, distros
<sommer> gotcha thanks
<nixternal> LaserJock: so far I have noticed them all just using one wiki/domain
<mdke> LaserJock: or indeed any project - library.gnome.org / live.gnome.org
<somerville32> I think other distros suck when it comes to help/wiki facilities
<somerville32> I had a hard time finding stuff with Suse
<nixternal> I have a hard time with any of them because I have gotten so used to moin...fedora's is nice though
<LaserJock> mdke: don't even mention gnome ;-) what aweful URLs
<mdke> we should definitely check em out
<dsas> I don't think GNOME have end-user documentation on l.g.o
<mdke> dsas: I believe it's the target if not
<sommer> it seems from the email threads that everyone agrees what the issues are, but I guess I'm fuzzy on the next steps are to impliment the specs?
<jjesse> brb restarting
<LaserJock> I actually think we need to look at the broader picture
<somerville32> jjesse, You restart a linux box?
<jjesse>  somerville32: currently in windows, restarting to linux :)
<somerville32> :O
<LaserJock> look at what we want to provide and where, keeping in mind the technical and resource limitations we have
<somerville32> jjesse, The whip will be waiting for you on your return.
<somerville32> Well, we have unlimited subdomains so I think we're good there
<LaserJock> ?
<mdke> LaserJock: go on
<LaserJock> well
<LaserJock> it seems like forever we've wanted to merge system and wiki documentation
<LaserJock> but it's technically very difficult
<LaserJock> we've had that QualityAssurance spec around forever as well
<mdke> well, I'm not so sure...
<mdke> I think the merge is a one-time only thing
<LaserJock> how will we deliver system documentation?
<LaserJock> ditch yelp and ship a copy of the wiki?
<mdke> rather than sync regularly each release, I think it's more realistic to import our current system documents to the wiki, and then let the wiki magic take its course. We'll then continue to maintain the system docs separately as now with an eye on what changes are being made to the wiki pages
<sommer> mdke: I totally second that approach
<somerville32> Wait. We want to abandon static release docs?
<LaserJock> mdke: that doesn't sound very good to me honestly
<mdke> somerville32: that's my idea, subject to whatever subtle access control we can implemet for the most reliable documents on the wiki
<sommer> my thinking is that the docbook versions are a subset of the corresponding wiki page, is that what you're getting at?
<LaserJock> so we're gonna have to constantly worry about diff between system docs and wiki docs
<somerville32> I don't see why we need to have the system docs editable via a wiki? It is a lower denominator too.
<LaserJock> I personally think the doc team doesn't have the resources to manage different systems very well
<somerville32> Plus, now that we use bzr, it is easy for people to contribute.
<LaserJock> somerville32: heh, I don't think bzr has changed anything
<somerville32> LaserJock, bzr allows for distributed development.
<dsas> we've had a tonne of people join up via documentors hungering for tasks, keeping an eye on the wiki docs and merging them should be a good mentoring task?
<LaserJock> somerville32: and that helps why?
<mdke> somerville32: that's not quite my idea. The system docs would continue to be maintained as now. The only question is how to make them available online, if at all
<somerville32> LaserJock, Different teams can work, with revision control easily, on different aspects.
<LaserJock> somerville32: if anything I think bzr has made the barrier to contribution higher
<somerville32> LaserJock, How so?
<LaserJock> bzr is slow and confusing for people
<mdke> LaserJock: you're very pessimistic today
<LaserJock> sorry :(
<LaserJock> maybe it's one of those days
<mdke> bzr is ok. I don't think it's changed our workflow at all.
<LaserJock> no, if you use bzr as svn it's fine
<LaserJock> but I don't think you can make the claim that distributed revision control is suddenly going to make contribution easier
<somerville32> Access control is simpler and lp integration is very nice
<mdke> I agree
<LaserJock> somerville32: that I can agree on
<mdke> we're not using a distributed model, so it's not changed contribution at all
<somerville32> Bzr is inherently distributed.
<LaserJock> mdke: you can't control whether it is or not
<mdke> well, I don't look at it like that
<LaserJock> in any case, bzr is beside the point :-)
<mdke> our team is using a centralised model with bzr, the packages are hosted in a central place, that's the end of it :)
<LaserJock> I'm using it decentralised ;-)
<LaserJock> I could put a branch anywhere I like
<LaserJock> I'm just saying you can't keep people from using it in a decentralised way
<somerville32> I hope people do. That way the server team  can work on docs by themselves and then merge it in later.
<somerville32> No need to become ubuntu-doc members and give them direct access
<LaserJock> I think it's going to be very difficult to merge
<LaserJock> as I'm guessing it'll become an unrelated branch
<somerville32> bzr is magical
<LaserJock> pfft
<LaserJock> you can also quickly screw up your repo too ;-)
<somerville32> I wonder if lp is smart enough to use a repo
<LaserJock> ok, back to what we were talking about
<somerville32> Which was what again?
<LaserJock> I think maintaining both docbook and wiki versions of documentation is really difficult
<michaelramm> confusion between h.u.c.and h.u.c/c
<somerville32> I agree with LaserJock
<LaserJock> well, IMO there shouldn't be any confusion
<LaserJock> h.u.c should be a wiki
<michaelramm> ok, I am new to the doc stuff...but this is confusing in itself:
<mdke> LaserJock: why would you put branches everywhere you like, when you are a team member and the team pages tell you not to?
<michaelramm> "The documentation wiki at [WWW] help.ubuntu.com is where the bulk of the Ubuntu community documentation is kept. Anyone can edit the wiki, which makes it an ideal place to start contributing."
<somerville32> Maybe have a script that exports the a stable bzr branch, compiles it to html, and place it on h.u.c?
<LaserJock> mdke: because maybe I want to do some testing or profreeding before commiting to the team repo
<michaelramm> from the DocTeam page
<sommer> LaserJock, somervill32: I'd have to disagree, if you look at https://help.ubuntu.com/7.04/server/C/postfix.html and https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Postfix
<mdke> LaserJock: right, so you'll commit to the team repo eventually
<sommer> the content is basically the same and the formatting closely matches
<LaserJock> mdke: I doubt I'd ever do it but there nothing that prevents me is the point
<LaserJock> sommer: but they can easily go out of sync and then you end up with problems
<jjesse> wow that took loonger then i thought :)
<mdke> LaserJock: ok. Back to the main point, your solution is to have a separate website with system documentation?
<jjesse> wife came home :)
<sommer> LaserJock: sure, but the system docs are only update per release... should have time to update them I'd think
<LaserJock> sommer: doubtful and that alone causes confusion
<LaserJock> mdke: not exactly
<mdke> so where do you put them?
<sommer> LaserJock: I guess I'm not clear on why?
<LaserJock> instead of the wiki being a subdir of help.u.c why not make the static docs a subdir of help.u.c
<LaserJock> sommer: if the same thing occurs in multiple place people get confused
<LaserJock> especially when the don't say the same thing
<mdke> LaserJock: I don't think it's impossible to simply import the static docs to wiki pages. If the technical side gets hard we can simple try dumping html in the wiki page, after all. That way we can eliminate overlap by having a wiki page on the same subject as a system doc page
<LaserJock> mdke: so help.u.c is a wiki, then have say a GutsySystemDocs page that links to the static docs
<somerville32> I think people might be confused when the help that they had confidence in suddenly starts changing.
<LaserJock> somerville32: ?
<mdke> somerville32: dude
<LaserJock> I don't think people know the difference
<sommer> somerville32: isn't that where the quality assurance comes in?
<mdke> that's like saying that I'd be confused if my plumber turns up on time tomorrow, instead of being late like he always is
<mdke> it's true, but who cares?
<LaserJock> people just Google stuff and click  on whatever comes up
<jjesse> or whatever is posted on the forums
<somerville32> I think there needs to be official documentation and community documentation.
<LaserJock> I doubt most people have a sense of confidence on *anything* that on the web
<LaserJock> somerville32: why?
<LaserJock> somerville32: it's all community
<somerville32> Ubuntu is used in the corporate environment and don't want to refer to a wiki which just anyone can contribute to.
<jjesse> LaserJock: its not viewd as the same documentation/same community
<LaserJock> somerville32: that's their problem ;-)
<jjesse> i would argue somerville32's point
<mdke> somerville32: you need to understand that "official" means nothing unless we actually make it so. There are plenty of wiki pages that are more reliable than the system docs
<mdke> as sommer is saying, that's where the quality assurance comes in
<somerville32> mdke, I don't think that changes anything. The quality of that page could become compromised at anytime.
<mdke> if you can give people an accurate idea of how reliable a page is, rather than just labelling them "official" and "not official", then we're winning
<somerville32> mdke, Do you read the e-mail sent out for every edit?
<sommer> mdke: thanks, I'm also looking at the issue almost exclusively from the server doc viewpoing.
<sommer> which at this point are pretty out of date
<jjesse> sommer: and which the sever team talked about updating
<jjesse> esxpecially as the server guide is currently two releases old
<somerville32> sommer: We can still do SRU for the official docs
<somerville32> QA for docs can still continue after a release.
<somerville32> But we need something solid for documents. Wiki is way too fluid.
<mdke> somerville32: they can also be improved. I don't read the commit messages either. Anyway, the point is that the system docs can easily contain errors now, and wiki pages can be more reliable now
<LaserJock> somerville32: fluidity is the point
<LaserJock> that's why wiki pages can be way better than system docs
<jjesse> LaserJock: not totally fluidy like the wiki, there needs to be stability
<somerville32> The wiki is not a reliable source.
<mdke> but the question of solidity is simply a question of how much we *choose* to use access control on the wiki
<LaserJock> jjesse: have you seen instability?
<mdke> it's a completely separate question
<somerville32> System documentation carries much more weight when it comes to credibility even if it sucks.
<mdke> we either go the "somerville" way, and use acls heavily, or the "wikipedia" way, and leave things really open
<mdke> but that's a bridge to be crossed later
<LaserJock> I mean for goodness sakes, Ubuntu's entire development process is done via wiki pages
<mdke> certainly my idea would be to use acls for the current system docs
<mdke> and give them the highest reliability rating
<LaserJock> if we can use it for policy, specs, etc. surely it's good enough for docs
<jjesse> i always thought there were acls on help.ubuntu.com/commuity
<somerville32> mdke: I think that would be counterproductive
<mdke> but that wouldn't stop us adapting a similar approach to other wiki pages
<somerville32> mdke: The beauty of the wiki is that everyone can contribute freely.
<mdke> argh
<sommer> somerville32: seems like you can't have it both ways
<mdke> ok, I'm going to detach for a while. It's been a long discussion
<jjesse> me 2 heading out for a run before it snows :)
<mdke> see everyone on the mailng list :)
<somerville32> I think we already have it both ways.
<jjesse> looking forward to it :)
<sommer> thanks mdke, jjesse
<somerville32> :)
<LaserJock> bah
<LaserJock> runs away ;-)
<LaserJock> I just don't by the corporate argument
<LaserJock> *buy
<michaelramm> i do...
<LaserJock> the software they use is done pretty much the same way
<LaserJock> so I don't see why they'd complain too much about documentation
<michaelramm> someone has to be responsible if something blows up in a corp environment
<somerville32> LaserJock, It isn't done the same way at all.
<somerville32> LaserJock, OSS development uses the scientific method in a lot of ways.
<LaserJock> michaelramm: well sure
<LaserJock> michaelramm: but if they're honestly worried about the wiki then maybe they should use a different OS
<michaelramm> laserjock: define they're in that stmt...who are you talking about?
<LaserJock> corporates
<somerville32> We're have the Wikipedia Vs. Encyclopedia argument
<michaelramm> well, that arguement never pops up until after the explosion
<somerville32> *having
<LaserJock> if they have issues with the wiki then they shouldn't be using it
<sommer> Is it possible to start implementing the QualityAssurance spec, keeping the current system as it is?
<michaelramm> when I think of wiki..I think anyone/everyone can add to it, so I take it with a grain of salt
<LaserJock> michaelramm: sure, that's what people should do
<sommer> michaelramm: testing rules!
<LaserJock> so I don't see the point in being paranoid about it
<LaserJock> we've never really had any bad issues
<somerville32> sommer, As someone from the server team POV, I can't believe you feel that a wiki is better then released documentation officially shipped
<michaelramm> I think that Matt and others are wondering why there are similar docs on h.u.c and on the wiki at h.u.c/comm
<sommer> somerville32: have you read the server parts? they're just way too dated!
<LaserJock> somerville32: it happens
<somerville32> sommer, So... you update them?
<sommer> somerville32: sure, but we're talking about large content contribution.
<michaelramm> where are the servers docs at?
<sommer> which from my understanding is only released during official releases
<somerville32> sommer, We can do SRUs for docs
<michaelramm> SRU?
<somerville32> stable release update
<michaelramm> thanks
<sommer> michaelramm: these are fiesty's https://help.ubuntu.com/7.04/server/C/
<LaserJock> somerville32: we wouldn't want to do many SRUs
<somerville32> LaserJock, No, we wouldn't. We do it at regular intervals if needed.
<somerville32> *We would
<sommer> anyone have the link for SRU submission... maybe I'm not understanding the process?
<michaelramm> sommer: thanks
<LaserJock> sommer: hehe, you don't want to know ;-)
<somerville32> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates
<LaserJock> sommer: actually most documentation changes would not meet the criteria for SRU
<somerville32> LaserJock, I've already talked to the SRU team. They said they'd do them.
<somerville32> There is _no_ reason what so ever to have QA problems with official docs besides lack of man power which I don't see how moving to a wiki would help.
<LaserJock> in any case, I think the conversation is often at the wrong level
<LaserJock> somerville32: more poeople
<LaserJock> *people
<LaserJock> and the lack of man power thing is a big deal
<somerville32> It is _the_ deal.
<somerville32> But using bazaar isn't hard
<LaserJock> so consolidation one thing you can do
<somerville32> And it would offer accountability and better QA than a wiki
<LaserJock> somerville32: but docbook is
<michaelramm> is it lack of peeps, or lack or _trained_ peeps?
<somerville32> LaserJock, WYSIWYG editors
<LaserJock> bzr is roughly the same a svn, so there's no gain there
<LaserJock> somerville32: there are none that will work with our docs
<michaelramm> cause I am new to DocTeam, and really do not know where to begin
<LaserJock> michaelramm: I'd say peeps in general
<LaserJock> michaelramm: well, that's what we're kinda trying to figure out :-)
<michaelramm> new = expressing an interest in contributing here, but not signed up on LP, but in this room and on ML
<LaserJock> I personally think that we shouldn't concern ourselves so much with system documentation
<LaserJock> yelp is not so great
<LaserJock> and it's difficult to give people what they want
<LaserJock> web-based resources seem like the way to go
<somerville32> LaserJock, And people without internet access?
<LaserJock> somerville32: at some level that's just gonna be a problem
<LaserJock> they're already in trouble as far as I'm concerned
<somerville32> LaserJock, I think abandoning them would be harmful
<michaelramm> bundle the wiki page at a certain point and have them installed on the HD
<LaserJock> michaelramm: there's no space
<LaserJock> we could do some subset perhaps
<michaelramm> if they don't have internet access, then they are not going to be updating anyway
<LaserJock> somerville32: I wouldn't say abandon
<somerville32> michaelramm, I don't see how upgrading any anything to do with it. Providing some sort of documents is important.
<LaserJock> but we shouldn't give them more concern than we need to
<LaserJock> there is tons of documentation already shipped
<somerville32> LaserJock, But we're proposing to get rid of that.
<LaserJock> it's not like we provide all the documentation
<LaserJock> we provide like < 1% of the documentation on a persons computer
<michaelramm> somerville32: i was talking in the sense of not having the most up-to-date page on the wiki is not as important to someone without access to the internet
<sommer> somerville32: I don't think the proposal is to get rid of it... is it?
<somerville32> sommer, I think it is.
<michaelramm> i have not gotten that was the proposal either
<LaserJock> somerville32: I don't think it is
<somerville32> How can we place the wiki on the cd?
<LaserJock> easy
<LaserJock> you can either take an HTML snapshot
<LaserJock> or install moin and ship the wiki
<somerville32> LaserJock, I thought you said there is no space.
<LaserJock> writing a little frontend to a wiki snapshot shouldn't be too difficult I don't think
<LaserJock> somerville32: there'd be space for a smal subset if we got rid of the current docbook docs
<somerville32> If thats true, that I think moving to the wiki is very much a good idea because we're still going to have a set of credible documents.
<LaserJock> heh
<LaserJock> nothings credible
<michaelramm> define credible
<LaserJock> ;-)
<somerville32> If we ship ti, it is more credible than the wiki
<LaserJock> no it's not
<michaelramm> how?
<LaserJock> you can say that definatively
<LaserJock> *can't
<LaserJock> that's an artifical thing to get corporates to feel safe
<somerville32> I think the QA for docs we ship would be higher
<LaserJock> what QA?
<sommer> are the docs read through for each release?
<somerville32> sommer, Very much so.
<LaserJock> maybe ... hopefully
<michaelramm> quality assurance
<somerville32> I know they are for Xubuntu
<michaelramm> sry, misread
<michaelramm> how do you know?
<LaserJock> I think it's still a very artifical distinction
<sommer> somerville32: cool, there are parts that aren't however... but like you've stated it's a manpower thing.
<sommer> regardless of which form the "official" docs take wouldn't we still want to work toward improving the wiki quality?
<LaserJock> in general, I think you can say that the "official" docs have better QA
<LaserJock> but you have much less usefulness
<sommer> specifically by implementing the QA spec.
<sommer> LaserJock: agreed
<LaserJock> I think the majority of people would have a more usefull, though perhaps less QA'd set of docs to read
<sommer> LaserJock, somerville32: thanks for the discussion... I'm going to take a break as well.
<somerville32> :)
#ubuntu-doc 2007-11-06
<jjesse> interseting on bzr merge for kubuntu-hardy i get /home/jameinel/dev/mdke/ubuntu-hardy is not a branch?
<jjesse> working under kubuntu-hardy
<LaserJock> jjesse: what are you merging?
<jjesse> LaserJock: hrmm got messed up
<LaserJock> jjesse: that reminds me, I need to push edubuntu-hard :/
<LaserJock> jjesse: yikes, good luck with that serverguide thing ;-)
<jjesse> LaserJock: the server time is excited about it
<jjesse> spent a lot of time talking documentation w/ them during uds
<LaserJock> yeah, I noticed
<LaserJock> I would like to see them work with/in the doc team
<LaserJock> jjesse: but I think one of the concerns mdke had about going to bzr was creating too many branches
<jjesse> LaserJock: well it currently is way hard to find out what the current server guide is
<jjesse> meant where
<LaserJock> jjesse: sure, but if you're in the doc team it's easy
<jjesse> LaserJock: but if your in teh server team and want to contribute
<LaserJock> jjesse: join the doc team
<LaserJock> is my point
<jjesse> LaserJock: I already am a part of the doc team
<jjesse> LaserJock: think on it from the view point of somoene who is on the server team and wants to help with the docs
<jjesse> how does that happen?
<jjesse> and before you say it won't, they have a specific role in the server team to work on documentation
<LaserJock> right
<LaserJock> but that's what I'm saying
<LaserJock> if they want to work on docs they should maybe join the doc team
<jjesse> force them to join thedoc team to contribute?
<LaserJock> yes
<LaserJock> essentially
<jjesse> ok interesting
<tonyyarusso> mdke: were you the dreamhost customer?
<michael_mac> tonyyarusso: i am a DH customer
<tonyyarusso> michael_mac: What are your thoughts so far?
<michael_mac> they have had some issues when I first joined them (apr 2006)
<michael_mac> but I have not had any problems since then
<michael_mac> they had a couple of outages, but then you know, that is a possibility for any host
<tonyyarusso> how long were they?
<michael_mac> not more than 4 hours, if i recall
<tonyyarusso> ah, okay
<michael_mac> the couple of times that I had to use support, they were very responsive and helped me solve my problem
<tonyyarusso> Good to know.
<LaserJock> michael_mac: ever get dugg or ./'d?
<michael_mac> no
<LaserJock> that's what I'm worried about
<michael_mac> well, that can take down anyone though...
<LaserJock> I've occasionally heard that they shut down accounts
<michael_mac> actually, a budy of mine got dugg and was down for almost 48 hrs
<michael_mac> buddy*
<michael_mac> "After several go-rounds with my webhost?s support staff, things seem to be back to normal."
<michael_mac> not sure what that entailed
<nixternal> Dreamhost will only shut down accounts if you abuse them...thus far I haven't had any issues
<LaserJock> yeah, that's the kind of thing I'm worried about
<nixternal> plus, you can get support right here on IRC :)
<LaserJock> nixternal: I've heard of people's accounts getting messed up because of being dugg
<nixternal> and, you get shell access
<nixternal> I have been through a digg and a slashdot for the Classroom thing we did last year with the new user network
<nixternal> nothing happened to me
<nixternal> and my sight was toast
<michael_mac> that seems a little ridiculous to me
<LaserJock> nixternal: what do you mean by toast?
<michael_mac> especially in this age of digg and /.
<nixternal> LaserJock: you couldn't look at it
<nixternal> they dont have the digg /. clause anymore, because they realised it isn't your fault
<michael_mac> there is no way a host can guarantee being able to survive a digg
<LaserJock> nixternal: right, but I've heard that dreamhost doesn't withstand getting dugg well
<LaserJock> they turn you off before you reach your bandwidth limit, etc.
<nixternal> probably don't, but that is what you get with any "low-price" hosting account
<michael_mac> I will say this...I am totally happy with DH
<michael_mac> I have two blogs on it and just put our Alabama LoCo blog on it
<nixternal> michael_mac: I am with you
<michael_mac> If I get dugg, and my site goes down, so be it
<nixternal> plus the referrals are a nice addition
<michael_mac> I don't run ads on any of my sites, so it is no skin off of my back
<nixternal> I have had enough referrals to pay for my account for the next few years
<michael_mac> my Productivity blog has over 5600 subscribers, so I have traffic
<michael_mac> Laserjock: what exactly are you worried about?
<LaserJock> running a blog and having downtime
<michael_mac> ok, so what does the downtime cost you?>
<nixternal> the only downtime I have had in the past year was really due to me shutting off the wp cache
<nixternal> I am on the mt. dew server and it has been pretty rock solid...even the recent power outtages out there didn't even effect my service
<LaserJock> michael_mac: well, if you've got a popular post and you're down that's no good
<michael_mac> but it will be there when the site is back up
<LaserJock> sure
<LaserJock> but the downtime can be a bit costly
<LaserJock> it's not bad
<michael_mac> how?
<LaserJock> well, you lose people when the get a 404
<michael_mac> not in this day of RSS feeds, you don't
<nixternal> lol, I was gonna say...da planet, da planet :)
<michael_mac> I RARELY visit the actual site of any of the 110+ blogs in my reader
<michael_mac> I would not even notice the outage unless someone else is talking about it
<michael_mac> then I would go to the site, and it would be down
<LaserJock> hmm, true
<michael_mac> i would watch for it to reappear in my reader then move on with my day
<michael_mac> I really struggle with the design of my sites nowadays because of the feed reader revolution
<michael_mac> why waste my time making it pretty when 90% of the readers will only see the text
<michael_mac> Don't even get me started on abbreviated feeds
<michael_mac> I will drop a blog in NO TIME flat that abbreviates their feeds
<LaserJock> yeah, most of the feeds I read do that
<LaserJock> really annoying
<michael_mac> i think that it is a ploy to get you to the site to activate their ads
<michael_mac> another reason that I drop them
<michael_mac> well, NOW I am going to bed...
<michael_mac> have a nice day/evening/night to all
<somerville32> night
<mdke> morning
<ubotu> New bug: #160435 in ubuntu-docs (main) "Typo in template "hardware" (Gutsy)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/160435
<nixternal> http://www.enterprisenetworkingplanet.com/netos/article.php/3709221
<nixternal> ^^ server folks read this too...
<nixternal> she actually provides a little constructive criticism at least
<michaelramm> tonyyarusso: Did you get your Dreamhost questions answered adaquately last night?
<tonyyarusso> michaelramm: pretty much
<michaelramm> ok, I know that nixternal is a supporter also, but if you have any more questions, feel free to hit me at michael AT 1manit DOT net
<tonyyarusso> sure
<sommer> nixternal: good article... I'm now on a quest to help make Ubuntu the best documented Linux distor ever... :)
<sommer> Does the doc team contribute to the release notes ?
<nixternal> don't know on the Ubuntu side if they do, but Kubuntu, Edubuntu, and Xubuntu docs people do
<sommer> ah... I guess knowing there's a problem is half the battle, heh
<michaelramm> So, I posed this question after the "debate" yesterday when matt and nix left for awhile...
<michaelramm> **this is coming from a 1 week veteran of the DocTeam **
<michaelramm> is the problem not enough people to do the documentation, or not enough 'trained' people to do the documentation?
<sommer> michaelramm: I'm still pretty new too, but from the ML it seems like there is a lot of folks in the mentoring program.
<sommer> so maybe's it's a training issue?
<michaelramm> sommer: i am interested in doing that also, i need to set up the bzr stuff and start learning docbook
<sommer> michaelramm: I haven't found DocBook to be really that hard, but most of my contribution has been edits/expansions of current docs.
<michaelramm> nixternal: who 'runs' the mentoring program?
<sommer> I think once you learn the tags and how the docs are structured it's pretty smooth sailing
<nixternal> michaelramm: not enough people
<nixternal> mentoring program was created by Phil Bull, so I would blame him :)
<michaelramm> So do the 'veterans' just pick someone off of the list and help them (if they have the same interests)? Or does someone assign them to someone in the area that they are interested in?
<sommer> michaelramm: from what I can tell you send a message to the list requesting a mentor, Phil responds asking what you're interested in
<sommer> you're free to work on whatever area you'd like, and if you have any questions you can ask here an on the ML
<sommer> you should be aware that the above may not be entirely accurate, just my interpretation of how things work
<michaelramm> sommer: i just read your wiki page...very interesting views on server and doc
<sommer> for example every patch I've submitted has been QA'd by bhuvan, who then either commits it or gives feed back
<sommer> michaelramm: heh... thanks, just my ramblings
<rgreening> hey, if someone wanted to write a book for ubuntu, what is the process? Any support places I could go and research?
<michaelramm> rgreening: what kind of book would you like to write?
<rgreening> I was looking at writing something focused on KDE/Kubuntu, as there seems to be little in the way of KDE desktops written. It would be a moving to Kubuntu for beginners (at least thet['s my thoughts. I have successfully converted 5 people so far, and would like to reach a broader audience
<rgreening> I have been using and developing for Linux since '93, and work in the telecommunications industry.
<rgreening> I've used many distro's and have recently switched to Kubuntu (from Gentoo).
<rgreening> Given the future direction of KDE4 and it being ported to windows, I feel there is a need to provide a transitional from Windows w/ KDE Apps to Kubuntu
<rgreening> Does this sound interesting?
<rgreening> Any ideas where I can get started?
<WaltzingAlong> the beginning
<rgreening> lol
<rgreening> I mean, who do I approach to see if this idea will fly, get permission and who to submit a treatise/draft, etc to.
<rgreening> Writing the book will be easy.
<rgreening> Getting support and published if there is interest is what I need to garner
<rgreening> I'd also like to make the book available online with Kubuntu/Ubuntu as part of their documentation.
<rgreening> as a way of contributing
<michaelramm> morning, jjesse
<jjesse> morning michaelramm
<actuallypopular> hey guys, I was reading some docs and noticed that the xubuntu hardy docs don't actually talk about WHY we have 3 different package manners, how to use them properly, when to use them, when not, the rationale behind it etc.  thoughts?
<actuallypopular> <-- posingaspopular at school btw
<eddieftw> whoops sorry i came in as actuallypopular just a moment ago if anyone is reading this as logs later
<ubotu> New bug: #160587 in ubuntu-docs (main) "Provide the server guide in textfiles" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/160587
<somerville32> mdke: Can you remove "Xubuntu is not supported by Canonical" from UbuntuHashes on h.u.c/community please.
<jjesse> som
<jjesse> d'oh
<jjesse> somerville32: just curious what support is there for xubuntu rom cannonical?
<somerville32> It is equivalent to the other official flavours except they do not sell technical support for it.
<jjesse> oh ok, so will xubuntu be an lts?
<jjesse> for 8.04
<somerville32> jjesse, The same as the others
<somerville32> And besides, it is _completely_ irrelevant on a Ubuntu website.
<somerville32> Ubuntu and Canonical are separate entities.
<jjesse> i understand that
<jjesse> i just ahd heard that 8.04 was not going to be an LTS for Xubuntu and there was no support so got a little confused
<somerville32> jjesse, Where did you hear that?
<somerville32> jjesse, Xubuntu shares the same repositories with the other flavours so it is impossible for Xubuntu not to be LTS if the other flavours are.
<jjesse> somerville32: i asked someone at UDS and thats what they told me, can't remember who
<somerville32> jjesse, The status of Xubuntu is not entirely clear to some people.
<somerville32> Sort of like how the distinction between wiki.u.c and help.u.c is not well known
<jjesse> somerville32: totally understand that
<somerville32> :)
#ubuntu-doc 2007-11-07
<mdke> somerville32: what is meant is that there is no commitment for security updates for xubuntu as there is for the other officially supported flavours. Is that wrong?
<somerville32> mdke, Yes.
<somerville32> Security updates are provided for main and all of Xubuntu is in main.
<mdke> somerville32: so why aren't isos supplied for xubuntu on releases.u.c?
<somerville32> mdke, lack of space atm
<mdke> is that all?
<somerville32> Depends who you ask
<somerville32> There is lack of clarity on Xubuntu's status even within Canonical its self.
<mdke> tell me more
<somerville32> mdke, Well, I asked for xubuntu to be placed on r.u.c
<somerville32> I think it was cjwatson who said there was no space after (I forget his irc atm) Matt said it should be.
<somerville32> Matt Zimmerman, that is
<somerville32> This was back in late-winter/early spring
<mdke> I find it strange that space should be an issue.
<somerville32> mdke: It is an issue.
<mdke> you mean they don't have any hard disks left?
<somerville32> They said they were moving to a different sever.
<somerville32> I dunno if they have or not
<somerville32> But hosting a distribution is not cheap when it comes to hd space
<mdke> so that is the only difference between xubuntu and the other flavours?
<somerville32> There are three differences.
<somerville32> 1. No technical support sold for it (not enough demand at this time)
<somerville32> 2. No canonical sponsored developer (Kubuntu was lucky to get and only because there is a market at this time for Kubuntu)
<somerville32> 3. It is not hosted on releases.ubuntu.com
<somerville32> Canonical supports it like the other flavours but simply isn't looking to make money off of it at this point in time.
<somerville32> And besides, Ubuntu and Canonical are _not_ the same entity.
<mdke> I'm aware of that
<somerville32> Ubuntu is an official flavour regardless if Canonical says so or not. It is up to the Ubuntu community.
<mdke> actually, I don't agree. Anyway, what I had in mind was Canonical-guaranteed security updates
<mdke> and if you're telling me that xubuntu gets those, I'll remove it
<mdke> but you should address 3, I can't see any logical reason for it, if what you've said is right
<somerville32> mdke: I will move forward with that.
<somerville32> But I'd like to hear why you feel Canonical has move control over Ubuntu than the Community (ie. Community Council).
<mdke> did I say that?
<somerville32> You said that you disagreed with the statement that Ubuntu is an official flavour regardless if Canonical says so or not.
<mdke> yep
<somerville32> sommer, you're saying that Canonical decides which are official flavours.
<somerville32> sommer, sorry, stupid auto-nick
<mdke> yes
<somerville32> mdke: So you're saying that Canonical has move control than Ubuntu over its self.
<mdke> no
<mdke> I'm saying it does so in relation to whether flavours are official or not
<mdke> not in relation to everything
<mdke> if there were no guaranteed security updates for Xubuntu, I think that would bring it outside the family of "official supported distributions"
<mdke> because Canonical makes that commitment for some flavours
<somerville32> Canonical commits to main + restricted
<mdke> yes, I know
<somerville32> ubuntulog, Kubuntu, Xubuntu, and Edubuntu are all derived from the same repository.
<somerville32> One moment while I reconfigure xchat.
<mdke> I'm aware of all these things
<mdke> and Gobuntu too
<somerville32> So where is the lack of clarity?
<mdke> what?
<somerville32> Do you understand why Xubuntu is an officially supported flavour of Ubuntu?
<mdke> yes
<somerville32> Wonderful :)
<posingaspopular> hey all, i just changed the xubuntu hardy docs assignments page to include the topics i hope to work on. i wasn't sure how to do the actual status bar though.  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Documentation/HardyAssignments
<posingaspopular> the topic background color i should say
<somerville32> Did you try using the existing table cells as an example?
<posingaspopular> somerville32: yea... i duno how to do that really?
<posingaspopular> erm,that'snot a question sorry
<somerville32> posingaspopular, I'll take a look.
<posingaspopular> thanks cody
<somerville32> np
<posingaspopular> actually, you probably know my brother: Admiral_Chicago
<posingaspopular> he helped with the docs last release i think
<somerville32> I do :)
<posingaspopular> oh cool. im going to visit him on friday. he's giving a talk about OS's and virtualization
<posingaspopular> my CS teacher agrees that his talk will be more interesting than the lecture on friday... kinda sad to be honest
<somerville32> hehe
<posingaspopular> they put me in the 'non CS major, omg you can't code' class that everyone has to take.
<posingaspopular> but i might minor in CS, so im going to be taking more classes anyway. assembley programming is going to be the suck though
<posingaspopular> i see the changes. thanks somerville32
<somerville32> posingaspopular, Could you update https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Documentation ?
<somerville32> The desktop guide is obsolete
<somerville32> and a more prominent link to the hardy assignment page would be awesome :)
<posingaspopular> is there a 7.10 link?
<somerville32> One sec.
<somerville32> Actually, mdke would be the guy to ask about that
<posingaspopular> he's idle atmtoo
<somerville32> posingaspopular, Also, help.ubuntu.com/community is void of a Xubuntu page/centre
<somerville32> ie. Our community wiki docs don't actually exist yet
<posingaspopular> yes i see
<posingaspopular> can we put a 'goals for hardy' section
<posingaspopular> and put that into the to do list?
<posingaspopular> or will that be done before the next release?
<somerville32> I'm not sure what you mean.
<somerville32> Goals for the documentation team?
<posingaspopular> yea, in terms of what docs should be finished
<somerville32> Isn't that what the Hardy assignment page is for?
<posingaspopular> or some other form of 'get help.com/community
<posingaspopular> i guess
<posingaspopular> i duno, it's 3am over ehre
<somerville32> Hopefully the xubuntu-doc team will start making use of help.com/community
<somerville32> There is a ton of stuff to write about
<posingaspopular> hmm i dont even see where the desktop guide even is
<posingaspopular> i thought we were doing away with the desktop guide completly...since edgy
<posingaspopular> how old/relevant is this page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Documentation/Wiki
<posingaspopular> looks like we're coming up on a year without edits on that one
<somerville32> posingaspopular, Desktop guide is obsolete.
<somerville32> wiki.ubuntu.com is no longer the place for help
<somerville32> help.ubuntu.com/community is the new help wiki
<posingaspopular> ah i see
<posingaspopular> somerville32: thoughts on that Xubuntu/Documentation/wiki page?
<somerville32> posingaspopular, That is the team wiki page.
<somerville32> Subcomponent of the doc team
<posingaspopular> okay. im just wondering why it's been so long without editing
<somerville32> It should contain information relevant to member of the doc team working on the community wiki (an official part of our documentation effort)
<somerville32> posingaspopular, No one has taken the initiative
<posingaspopular> please excuse me if im asking redundant questions, i swear my brain is fried tonight
<somerville32> No no
<somerville32> np :)
<posingaspopular> time to collapse for 5 hours... if you want me to look at/edit any more edit, just ping them to my nick and i'll take a bat to them asap
<somerville32> posingaspopular, awesome. thanks for your contributions! :)
<posingaspopular> i'll help anyway i can
<LaserJock> anybody seen nixternal today?
<michaelramm> nope, been on since 8am Central US time, and you are the first post
#ubuntu-doc 2007-11-08
<Middleastin> hello
<Middleastin> yo
<Middleastin> please
<Middleastin> TALK
<Middleastin> PPL
<Middleastin> ARE U HERE
<somerville32> Hi
<Middleastin> who
<Middleastin> wow
<somerville32> How can I help you? :)
<Middleastin> someone answered
<Middleastin> yea
<Middleastin> so you can help me out with unbuntu right
<Middleastin> ?
<somerville32> #ubuntu is the Ubuntu support channel
<Middleastin> so you can help me
<somerville32> This channel is for the coordination of the development of the Ubuntu documentation
<Middleastin> oh
<Middleastin> sorry
<somerville32> Please refer to #ubuntu
<Middleastin> is that it
<Middleastin> do i search for that
<Middleastin> #ubuntu
<Middleastin> i am not fimilar with this kinda chat server
<somerville32> type: /join #ubuntu
<Middleastin> where do i type that
<somerville32> Where you're typing right now
<Middleastin> OH
<Middleastin> ok
<Middleastin> thanks alot
<oldmanstan> somerville32: that was a pretty humorous help request and response above ^
<somerville32> lol
<oldmanstan> somerville32: i like the idea of a xubuntu help browser, so long as it doesn't take a crazy amount of time/effort, which i don't think it will
<oldmanstan> let me know if you guys need any help on it
<somerville32> Awesome :)
<posingaspopular> hey all
<posingaspopular> im trying to start writing the basic commands for xubuntu hardy. so far, i have 'man' 'sudo' 'ls' 'pwd' 'cd' and 'ifconfig'/'dhclient
<posingaspopular> anything else?
<somerville32> posingaspopular, We're have a basic commands section?
<posingaspopular> i could have sworn....
<posingaspopular> or else i was mapping out docs in my head all day for no reason
<somerville32> As long as we aren't expecting anyone to use them :P
<posingaspopular> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Documentation/HardyAssignments
<posingaspopular> basic commands
<somerville32> It should be nothing more than an appendix at best.
<posingaspopular> ummm.... okay....
<somerville32> We should strive to make it so that users don't even have to touch the cli
<posingaspopular> somerville32: im really bad at this docs thing by the way
<somerville32> posingaspopular, No you're not :P
<oldmanstan> somerville32: the ubuntu docs have a CLI section, we just duplicated it
<somerville32> oldmanstan, Okay. Are we trying to maintain a minimum delta or is there no point to that now?
<oldmanstan> yeah, imho we should try to change as little as possible, at least in areas where that's feasible
<oldmanstan> i mean, obviously there are significant software packages that xubuntu doesn't ship by default that k/ubuntu do, so in those areas we should probably just forget about trying to stay parallel
<somerville32> oldmanstan, So why do we need to write our own basic commands now?
<somerville32> Can't we mirror what ubuntu has?
<somerville32> And is it a full chapter in Ubuntu?
<oldmanstan> yeah, when i made that table i basically just copied the old one, but for certain things we can probably specify that the goal for a section is just to keep up with the ubuntu changes (and fix them where they don't work for us)
<oldmanstan> it's a full chapter yeah, i was a bit surprised myself when i saw it, amazingly it was also had quite a few bugs, haha, you'd think a bunch of nerds could write a command line guide
<somerville32> lol
<somerville32> It wouldn't require much hacking to make it an appendix instead
<posingaspopular> oldmanstan: the level 400 classes in communication for web design teach HTML and then go into DTD.
#ubuntu-doc 2008-11-04
<technomensch> evening everyone
<ryanakca> Would it be of value to remove all the wiki pages that have ``HOWTO''s for any release prior to and including Edgy that can't be ported to a current release?
<Burgundavia> ryanakca: even feisty is now EOL
<mdke> ryanakca: yes, out of date pages should be tagged either for updating or deletion, as per https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Tag
<ryanakca> mdke: thanks
#ubuntu-doc 2008-11-05
<bryce> I have feedback for the new page at wiki.ubuntu.com.  Is this the right place to give it?
<mdke> bryce: sort of, but really the mailing list is better, as you have done
#ubuntu-doc 2008-11-06
<gnomefreak> how do we redirect wikis?
#ubuntu-doc 2008-11-07
<technomensch> good evening
#ubuntu-doc 2008-11-08
<mdke> popey: around?
<mdke> popey: (for when you are) I remember that you had a trick for getting around the firewall on lanthanum for getting launchpad bzr branches, but I've forgotten it. What was it?
<popey> hi
<mdke> hi :)
<popey> mdke: just rescanned my logs for this channel and last time I suggested checking out stuff on your own machine then using scp to copy it up
<popey> alternatively ssh to the box with some funky parameters to setup a tunnel back to your local location and setup a proxy at home
<popey> its messy but it would work
<popey> and last time I suggested it I thought "I should try that" and never have
<mdke> popey: hmm. I thought that after that i discovered that there was one protocol and on url that was whitelisted, that wasn't you that told me?
<popey> i dont think so
<mdke> popey: ok, my bad
<popey> are you logged into lanthanum right now?
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> oh, no actually
<popey> mdke: ok, i have sorted it
<popey> -> prv
#ubuntu-doc 2009-11-02
<Jordan_U> Could someone help me to add instructions for how to fix "grub error 15" to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Grub2 ? I know all of the technical details but I am not sure where it should fit in or how to word it.
<Jordan_U> mdke, How does this look for the error section and is there a special way to link to this section in another part of the page or should I just use "https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Grub2#Error%2015%20-%20File%20not%20found" ?
<mdke> Jordan_U: looks good, but the title of the section should be one level lower, and I'd recommend making the command line entries indented too (you can do that by starting the {{{ at the end of the line that introduces it, like " * Open a terminal and type
<mdke> whoops, that ended abruptly, sorry
<mdke> * Open a terminal and type:{{{
<mdke> $ sudo fdisk -l}}}
<mdke> Jordan_U: as for the linking to the section, see the "Anchors" section of https://help.ubuntu.com/community/HelpOnLinking
<Jordan_U> mdke, I need to get some sleep, I will try to fix it tomorrow, should I revert it until then?
<mdke> Jordan_U: no, I'll have a go if you don't mind
<Jordan_U> mdke, Not at all, thank you.
<mdke> ok, sleep well and thanks for the contribution
<mdke> gosh
<mdke> Jordan_U: I've just realised that the page overlaps with https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Grub2 - we'll need to look at merging them at some stage, help.ubuntu.com is the right place for documentation
<mdke> anyway, sleep well
#ubuntu-doc 2009-11-03
<glebaron_> exit
<trijntje> anyone of the two Kubuntu-docs people in the room?
<jpds> trijntje: That would be jjesse and nixternal but I think they're both offline.
<trijntje> jpds, thank you, i will try again later
#ubuntu-doc 2009-11-05
<Pendulum> hi, I was wondering if there was a guideline that gets used for grammar/spelling/punctuation for documentation? (eng-gb vs. eng-us)
<popey> there is
<popey> sadly I believe it's en-us
<Pendulum> heh. any specifics beyond that? (i know of at least 3 style guides for punctuation and grammar for en-us)
<Pendulum> (it was suggested to me that as someone who works in publishing, I might be able to be useful by proofreading documentation)
<popey> I would ask mdke when he's about Pendulum
<popey> he is clueful about these things
<Pendulum> popey: okay, thanks :)
<FFEMTcJ> I found a problem in some documentation.. Would someone be willing to walk me through reporting it/getting it fixed?
<FFEMTcJ> Everyone busy in the classroom?
<FFEMTcJ> heh
<trijntje> FFEMTcJ, what problem did you find?
<FFEMTcJ> trijntje: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SynergyHowto  - under server configuration.. it says to create .synergy.conf - then under running synergy, it shows synergys -f --config synergy.conf, and then shows to mv synergy.conf to .synergy.conf..
<FFEMTcJ> then later on it shows adding it to 'sessions' as synergy.conf
<FFEMTcJ> can I just go through and edit the page to fix it or is there a proper way to do this?
<FFEMTcJ> also, there isnt a 'sessions' in 9.10, so its out of date
<trijntje> FFEMTcJ, i'm no expert on this, but its in /community so you should be able to edit it. Maybe you should hang around here for a while until someon from the wiki docs teams sees your question :)
<FFEMTcJ> trijntje: i know i can edit.. just dont know if there is a proper proceedre
<trijntje> FFEMTcJ, I dont think theres a procedure for fixing minor things. If they don't like it they can alway's set it back to the original, and the maintainers should get a notification someting changed
<trijntje> FFEMTcJ, so i would go ahead and edit it, and see what happens ;)
<FFEMTcJ> ok.. wasnt sure if your supposed to report it first.. since i see that there is a "bugs" thing for ubuntu-docs or not
<trijntje> FFEMTcJ, i'm not on a wiki team myself, but they say this on their introduction page: The Documentation Wiki is a sub-project of the DocumentationTeam. It is a community-driven and open area of the Ubuntu documentation website which anyone can edit.
<FFEMTcJ> sounds good
<FFEMTcJ> thanks
<trijntje> i would guess a bug is to say 'something is wrong', and just edit it if you are willing to fix it
<mdke> Pendulum: this is what we have - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/StyleGuide/SpellingPunctuationGrammar
<Pendulum> mdke: thanks :)
#ubuntu-doc 2009-11-06
<starcraftman> mdke: ya there?
<mdke> starcraftman: yep, got your email, but I haven't read it properly yet
<mdke> welcome saji
<starcraftman> mdke: sokay, I didn't have that much to say in it, still not quite sure what to do. Depends on the goals.
<starcraftman> also, lo again saji, hehe.
<saji> starcraftman, Hi there.
<saji> mdke, thanks..
<mdke> starcraftman: I'll have a read and respond by email, if that's ok - I need to disconnect now
<mdke> been a long day!
<starcraftman> mdke: a sure thing, I completely understand.
<starcraftman> You take care, and talk to ya another day, I'll be around the weekend sometime, if not then email it is.
<mdke> awesome, thanks
<mdke> ciao
<saji> mdke, bye for now..
<starcraftman> saji: any questions?
<saji> starcraftman, what does the #ubuntu-classroom channel discuss on?
<starcraftman> right now it's being used by openweek...https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
<starcraftman> Varies I believe. Not an expert, I don't really hold sessions.
<saji> starcraftman, ok.. I too guessed so...
<saji> starcraftman, I'm getting an error.
<saji> bzr branch lp:ubuntu-docs
<saji> The authenticity of host 'bazaar.launchpad.net (91.189.90.11)' can't be established.
<saji> RSA key fingerprint is 9d:38:3a:63:b1:d5:6f:c4:44:67:53:49:2e:ee:fc:89.
<saji> Are you sure you want to continue connecting (yes/no)? y
<saji> Please type 'yes' or 'no': yes
<saji> Warning: Permanently added 'bazaar.launchpad.net,91.189.90.11' (RSA) to the list of known hosts.
<saji> Permission denied (publickey).
<saji> bzr: ERROR: Connection closed: Unexpected end of message. Please check connectivity and permissions, and report a bug if problems persist.
<starcraftman> saji: this is a case where I should know more about bzr.... definitely a project for weekend. I can't offer advice on error unfortunately.
<starcraftman> Rocket2DMn: ^!
<saji> starcraftman, Its ok.
<saji> starcraftman, Anyone I can ask for bzr help?
<starcraftman> saji: thats why I pinged rocket....
<starcraftman> he'll be here, momentarily. Bet he's just waiting a bit so as to break the wonderful pattern.
<saji> starcraftman, oh is ^! for pinging?
<starcraftman> saji: no that was just me indicating ^ for read up and ! cuz I felt like it.
 * Rocket2DMn shows up
<starcraftman> ping is when ya put the nick in the message text
<starcraftman> :P
<saji> starcraftman, oh u meant a logical ping.. I get that now..
<starcraftman> later, I go to java class, time to learn more on classes and arrays.
<starcraftman> saji: Rgr!
<Rocket2DMn> saji, so it looks like you accepted the ssh key from launchpad, but it doesnt like your credentials
<Rocket2DMn> i dont recall if you need a key or not...
<saji> starcraftman, bye for now..
<Rocket2DMn> ah yes, you need to generate a private key
<saji> Rocket2DMn, so what have i to do now?
<Rocket2DMn> saji, have you seen https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/Repository
<saji> Rocket2DMn, Sorry, I hadn't.. But, I'll see it now.
<Rocket2DMn> no problem, have a look there and follow the directions
<Rocket2DMn> i assume you alreay have a LP account?
<saji> Rocket2DMn, sure i have LP account.
<Rocket2DMn> ok, it sounds like you just need to get your SSH key setup and then identify with LP through bazaar
<saji> Rocket2DMn, and i have both OPenPGP and SSH keys.. :)
<saji> Rocket2DMn, How'll use the existing SSH key for that?
<Rocket2DMn> saji, is that SSH key registered with LP?
<saji> Rocket2DMn, yes.
<Rocket2DMn> i think you should be able to login then
<Rocket2DMn> bzr launchpad-login yourusernamehere
<saji> Rocket2DMn, will my SSH key be lost after I reinstall Ubuntu?
<saji> Rocket2DMn, I think that may be the problem. I have installed Ubuntu 9.10 now?
<saji> ...
<Rocket2DMn> saji, if you dont have a separate /home partition, then yes, but they can be backed up
<Rocket2DMn> upgrading versions wont lose it though
<Rocket2DMn> did you do a fresh install?
<saji> Rocket2DMn, I don't have seperate home partition, and i had had a fresh install...
<saji> My launchpad id is-https://launchpad.net/~sajinsj
<saji> sorry, https://launchpad.net/~sajinsj
<Rocket2DMn> in that case you need to generate a new SSH key b/c your private key would have been lost when you wiped the drive
<saji> Rocket2DMn, But I think i have saved the keys..
<saji> Rocket2DMn, What will be its extension?
<Rocket2DMn> saji, i think it's the files in the .ssh directory in your home folder
<saji> Rocket2DMn, i have a server.crt, server.key files. IS that it?
<Rocket2DMn> hmm, i'm not really sure saji , if you backed them up with those names it would make sense
<Rocket2DMn> i don't have any files like that though
<saji> Rocketman, ok.
<Rocket2DMn> did you follow directions from somewhere when you backed them up?
<saji> Rocketman, I also have a file called 'saji_key.pub'. It is SSH related files.
<saji> As i can see from its content,,
<Rocket2DMn> yeah saji , i have "id_rsa" and "id_rsa.pub"
<saji> Rocket2DMn, No i hadn't followed any instructions, I just saved all the key files in my Home folder before the fresh install..
<Rocket2DMn> the former must be the private key and the latter the public key
<Rocket2DMn> i also have a "config" file
<Rocket2DMn> i guess you just need those two though, the config file can be recreated with different settings
<saji> I have the first two files, but no "config" file..
<Rocket2DMn> i also added a setting in my config file for LP
<Rocket2DMn> i dont think its needed though
<saji> Rocket2DMn, where do i find the instructions to do that?
<saji> Rocket2DMn, If its not needed then its fine.
<Rocket2DMn> hmm, have a look here - https://help.launchpad.net/Code/UploadingABranch
<Rocket2DMn> it explains adding to the config file
<saji> Rocket2DMn, ok.
<Rocket2DMn> i'm not a SSH or bzr expert
<Rocket2DMn> i know more about theory than setting it up
<saji> Rocket2DMn, That's fine with me. :)
<Rocket2DMn> we could ping nhandler , too, he would know for sure
<saji> Rocket2DMn, I think he is away.
<Rocket2DMn> yeah, he is, but he's around often, he might be back soon
<saji> Rocket2DMn, In the mean time et me check out the instructions in the page u said.
<saji> Rocket2DMn, Where should i put the two files? In '.ssh' folder?
<Rocket2DMn> yeah
<Rocket2DMn> i think there are more secure ways of backing up ssh keys, but i've just used an immediate copy of my .ssh directory inthe past
<Rocket2DMn> I wouldn't recommend that when using shared resources though
<saji> Rocket2DMn, what?
<Rocket2DMn> nvm
<saji> Rocket2DMn, what is that?
<saji> Rocket2DMn, And what shared resources?
<Rocket2DMn> saji, any computer system or component that you share with other people
<dsas> saji, just keep your ssh private key safe, don't let other people have access :)
<Rocket2DMn> so for instance if you share an external hard drive or flash drive with somebody else, you shouldhn't back up your private key there
<saji> dsas, ok.
<saji> Rocket2DMn, Got that.. thanks.
<Rocket2DMn> saji, make sure your private key permissions are set to 600
<saji> Rocket2DMn, ok..
<saji> Rocket2DMn, the IdentityFile in config is private key. Right?
<Rocket2DMn> saji, i believe so.  I don't have that entry there, probably b/c I'm using a default filename for my key
<Rocket2DMn> either that or there is only one private key available
<saji> Rocket2DMn, ok. But the entry is for private key. right?
<Rocket2DMn> saji, that would be my assumption, but I don't know for sure
<saji> Rocket2DMn, ok. I'll try..
<saji> Rocket2DMn, yes it is.... :)
<Rocket2DMn> are you connected with LP now ?
<saji> Rocket2DMn, Now the fetching works fine. Thanks..:)
<saji> Rocket2DMn, yes.
<Rocket2DMn> sweet
<Rocket2DMn> np
<saji> I'm connected to LP.
<saji> Shall I disturb you with another key retrieval?
<saji> doubt. I mean..
<saji> Rocket2DMn, ?
<Rocket2DMn> huh?
<saji> Rocket2DMn, I think on the fresh install now my openpgp key is also not there, how will I place it back?
<Rocket2DMn> saji, those would be in your .gnupg directory
<Rocket2DMn> I don't know about recovering those unless you just have a backup of the directory
<saji> Rocket2DMn, nope I didn't take backup of that directory.
<saji> Rocket2DMn, Is the server.key and server.crt key openpgp ones?
<Rocket2DMn> I don't think so saji , i think gpg keys all end in .gpg
<Rocket2DMn> however, if you changed the name when you backed them up, then idk
<saji> Rocket2DMn, ok.
<saji> Rocket2DMn, No I didn;t change any names.. I guess those are not the files.
<Rocket2DMn> ok, you may need to try in the #ubuntu support channel, or on the forums
<Rocket2DMn> It sounds like you need to keep your backups a bit more organized :)
<saji> Rocket2DMn, I guess i have to create a new openpgp key. And sign the Ubuntu COC again..
<saji> Rocket2DMn, Ya... :)
<Rocket2DMn> hehe
<saji> hmmmm...
<saji> Rocket2DMn, thanks for the help. I'm off now. Gonna make a new openpgp key.
<saji> Rocket2DMn, starcraft Bye....
#ubuntu-doc 2009-11-07
<nigel_nb> starcraft: ping
<starcraft> nigel_nb: yes?
<nigel_nb> starcraft: did u get a mail from the doc mailing list about some proxy being directed via your system or something?
<nigel_nb> starcraft: what is that?
<starcraft> I scanned my gmail archive, I see no recent mail on proxy.
<starcraft> what's subject?
<starcraft> i.e. the subject line.
<starcraftman> nigel_nb: ?
<nigel_nb> starcraftman: Returned mail: Data format error (The Post Office)
<starcraftman> Returned mail means you had a problem delivering it, maybe a proxy interfered or filtered it.
<nigel_nb> actually, I never sent a mail to the doc list
<starcraftman> nigel_nb: interesting.
<nigel_nb> there's more
<nigel_nb> i'll pastebitin
<starcraftman> nigel_nb: k, that works.
<nigel_nb> starcraftman: http://paste.ubuntu.com/312055/
<nigel_nb> I subscribe to digets
<nigel_nb> digests
<starcraftman> hmmmm'
<starcraftman> and you haven't been sending mail to doc list directly?
<nigel_nb> my instincts tell me its some attempt at spam
<nigel_nb> I've not send to any mailing list
<nigel_nb> i havent even introduced myself on the mailing list.. yet
<nigel_nb> if u notice, the mail is not directed at me
<nigel_nb> its got some obj file as attachment... is it a virus/trojan?
<starcraftman> nigel_nb: hmmm, indeed, it's directed to the list, I shold have gotten a bounce. Lemme check my mail again.
<nigel_nb> starcraftman: great :)
<starcraftman> nope, I don't have it, hmmm, ask duane or another doc member.
<starcraftman> If they don't, you may be right, some sort of spoofed email/spam.
<nigel_nb> duan doesnt have it either, I asked him first
<nigel_nb> starcraftman: my instincts still serve me well? its some kinda spam rite?  I believe if i had not subscribed to digests, those fields would have been populated
<starcraftman> nigel_nb: you signed up for daily digest rather than getting each email? Unsubscribe the digest and see, never thought that option was good.
<starcraftman> Just make sure ya got a filter for doc mail in place.
<nigel_nb> oh okay
<nigel_nb> will do
<nigel_nb> thanks starcraftman
<starcraftman> nigel_nb: rgr
<dhillon-v10> Rocket2DMn, hi what's up
<dhillon-v10> Rocket2DMn, I am working on this search engine (using google) that focuses only on the docs. written by the community and also the official docs. it is a help based approach for the new users
<dhillon-v10> http://www.google.com/cse/home?cx=014250783410843295725:zljthihhkym
<Rocket2DMn> hi dhillon-v10
<Rocket2DMn> dhillon-v10, i believe the search engine that exists on the Ubuntu docs currently is powered by google
<Rocket2DMn> they search the community docs, the system docs, and the manpages
<Rocket2DMn> sounds like what you have is a mix of official, community, team, and third party docs
<sommer> mdke: ping about Bug 463684... I commited a change to lucid, and think we should do an SRU for Jaunty.
<ubot4> Launchpad bug 463684 in ubuntu-docs "openldap sections in ubuntu server guide not updated for packages in karmic" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/463684
<sommer> mdke: the Jaunty LDAP section is basically useless without the update.  Just wondering about the translation for an SRU?
<Flannel> Does anyone know of usb-creator.exe hosted somewhere (preferrably ubuntu.com) that we can link to?  https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Installation/FromUSBStick#From%20Windows  Claims it should be on the CD (it's only on the netbook remix)
<Flannel> But if you get that exe (whopping 2MB), you can use it with an arbitrary ISO.
<Rocket2DMn> hey sommer , there are about 6 or so bugs open for ldap documentation
<Rocket2DMn> are you going to do another commit later for those as well?
<sommer> Rocket2DMn: ya, they'll definitely get fixed for lucid
<sommer> Rocket2DMn: might try to fix the with the SRU as well, but wanted to do a minimal change first :)
<Rocket2DMn> awesome, that part of the documentation seems to be pretty popular
 * skiquel waves
<sommer> Rocket2DMn: ya, unfortunetly LDAP is a major subject, so people either like the Server Guide sections or you don't heh
<Rocket2DMn> yeah sommer , unfortunately i dont have an environmenet to test that sort of stuff in
<Rocket2DMn> hi skiquel
<Rocket2DMn> Flannel, idk where there is a copy, sorry
<Rocket2DMn> Flannel, i dont see it on the cd, i also see this thread - http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1316613
<Flannel> Rocket2DMn: It's only on the netbook iso it seems
<Rocket2DMn> ah
<Flannel> It seems silly, but that's the fact of the matter.
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, did bug 288574 ever make it out of intrepid-proposed and into -updates ?
<ubot4> Launchpad bug 288574 in ubuntu-docs "Documentation changed after latest Rosetta templates, update will be needed for intrepid" [Undecided,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/288574
<Rocket2DMn> Flannel, yeah, that wouldn't be the only thing UNR dropped the ball on for Karmic either, they left out the desktop-switcher app
<Flannel> Rocket2DMn: I don't really know if this is UNR dropping the ball.  They've got it.  The rest of the ISOs don't.
<Rocket2DMn> ah ok Flannel , i misunderstood, sorry
<Flannel> But that's not important, how can we get this up there somewhere?  I don't think I can upload an exe to moin (and wouldn't want to anyway)
<Rocket2DMn> that's a good question Flannel , i'm not really sure.  I would expect that it should be hosted on the Ubuntu website or the project homepage
<Flannel> There's no documentation in the program, so I have no idea what project this harkens back to.
#ubuntu-doc 2009-11-08
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, I'm looking at bug 460360 - is there a way to mark strings as duplicates so they don't need to be retranslated?
<ubot4> Launchpad bug 460360 in ubuntu-docs "Several typos and suggestions" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/460360
<Rocket2DMn> or is rosetta smart enough to find duplicates and not have them appear for translation multiple times?
#ubuntu-doc 2010-11-09
<rodemire> Hallo, can i get a pdf version of the Docbook guide on your "contribute" site?
<rodemire> I would like to help with documentation, i am not that technical in Ubuntu but i can try to help where i can. I went to the sites mentioned above but it seems likle i have to have some detailed knowledge in some of the areas that are mentioned. Isnt there somewhere where a person can do some trials and get approval on whether they have mastered the concepts and then they can write some documentattion?
#ubuntu-doc 2010-11-10
<czajkowski> Pendulum: aye reminder to follow her
#ubuntu-doc 2010-11-11
 * peppe84 is away: Me ne sono andato per i fatti miei
#ubuntu-doc 2010-11-13
<Rocket2DMn> hey mdke , i messaged you last weekend but didn't hear back from you.
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, I think that the docs currently fail to build with "make all" due to the makefile still containing references to the "switching" section
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, can you confirm that this is a problem? I don't want to fiddle with the Makefile unless I'm sure
#ubuntu-doc 2010-11-14
<karthick87> Hi anyone here..?I need a clarification
<JoeMaverickSett> can this wiki bug be marked as triaged? https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-beginners-wiki-sod/+bug/605468
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 605468 in ubuntu-beginners-wiki-sod "Ubuntu Games Doc Page (affects: 1) (heat: 4)" [High,In progress]
<JoeMaverickSett> or rather done?
#ubuntu-doc 2011-11-10
<trijntje> Hi all, I'm translating the ubuntu-docs package on launchpad, but I'm not sure what to do with these strings:
<trijntje> You can <link xref="bluetooth-remove-connection">remove a Bluetooth connection</link> later if desired
<trijntje> should the text between " " be translated or left as it is?
<j1mc> trijntje: the "bluetooth-remove-connection" should be left as it is.
<j1mc> that will make sure that the links work correctly.
<j1mc> thanks for your help!
<Hooh9> hi
<Hooh9> Question: When I print a Document from e.g. https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/InstallNTPServer as a pdf, the output is a pdf
<Hooh9> with letters spread on the page
<Hooh9> any idea why?
<jbicha> Hooh9: I see a button for More Actions > Print View
<jbicha> if that still doesn't work, maybe try a different web browser
<Hooh9> I tried this and I also got a mangled pdf
<Hooh9> will try another browser as u suggest
<Hooh9> used chromium browser and it came out nicely
<Hooh9> thanks very much
<Hooh9> must be something with firefox
#ubuntu-doc 2012-11-07
<Wormo> I would like to help maintain the Linux-supporting kickstarter page on community wiki but every page in the wiki is 'immutable' after I have logged in
<Wormo> how does one get permissions to start editing a page?
<Wormo> note -- I have to head out to work soon likely, but feel free to leave me an answer anyways, I'll check the log later...
<jbicha> Wormo: what page in particular?
<Wormo> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/KickstarterGames
<Wormo> Hero U just confirmed Linux support in latest update
<Wormo> I created an account today, haven't been able to update even a sandbox page -- all say 'Immutable Page' while I am logged in
<jbicha> Wormo: it works here, have you tried refreshing the page after logging in?
<Wormo> Yes and logging in and out too
<Wormo> like I said my ubuntu account is freshly created, and doesn't seem able to even edit a sendbox page on the wiki
<Wormo> I'm using firefox 15 btw
<Wormo> and there is a Logout link, showing I did log in successfully
<Wormo> heading out, will check logs to see if anybody has advice on getting my account editing permissions...
#ubuntu-doc 2012-11-08
<Wormo> Still looking for advice on getting write access to the community wiki, in particular to help maintain https://help.ubuntu.com/community/KickstarterGames
<Wormo> Created an ubuntu "single sign on" account this morning, and while it apparently lets me log into the wiki, every page there says 'Immutable Page'
<Wormo> even sandbox pages
<skaet_> who is able to edit https://help.ubuntu.com/12.10/installation-guide/ ?   Since 12.10 no longer ships alternate CDs with Ubuntu,  it probably needs some revamp/cleanup.
<jbicha> skaet_: I couldn't figure out how to build the installationguide so the online version is out-of-date anyway
<jbicha> that's why I dropped the link from https://help.ubuntu.com/12.10/
<jbicha> oh and I see you just filed a bug
<skaet_> yup,  figured best to get it tracked.
<skaet_> was coming to it through other twisty paths...
<skaet_> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/installation-guide/+bug/1076456
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 1076456 in installation-guide (Ubuntu) "Ubuntu 12.10 does not ship with Alternate CDs - installation guides need update" [Medium,New]
<jbicha> it is linked from https://help.ubuntu.com/12.10/serverguide/introduction-chap.html
<skaet_> jbicha,  I was finding it by extrapolating on the developer documentation (hence twisty paths ;) )
<skaet_> ie.  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UsingDevelopmentReleases/OtherWays had link to 9.10 which was overdue to be updated
<skaet_> Given situation with 12.10 - will just point it at 12.04,  since that's the LTS afterall.
<jbicha> that's a bit outdated too because I had the same build problem (that's why it's missing the arm versions)
<skaet_> hmm..    yeah, getting the arm info incorporated would be useful indeed.
<jbicha> you can also use https://help.ubuntu.com/stable/ or https://help.ubuntu.com/lts/ now
<jbicha> maybe "stable" isn't a good name but symlinks are cheap
<YoBoY> jbicha, hi, what is the problem with the build of the installation guide ?
<jbicha> YoBoY: I get ugly URLs like apas01.html
<YoBoY> ok, I have the same ones :)
<guntbert> ubuntu-wiki: is it possible to revert changes from another user?
<guntbert> situation: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ApacheMySQLPHP, revision 180 deleted a lot of text, I asked about it and the user said that was not intentional - but it seems he is not going to review his edit - I don't want to second guess another user - it just looks like that there might have been useful info deleted
<jbicha> guntbert: yes, you can click Info and then click diff "to previous" for the reversion you want and then click "Revert to this revision"
<guntbert> jbicha: hmmm, I thought I tried that..
<guntbert> jbicha: click "info" ? where? I was in "page history"
<jbicha> guntbert: oh, never mind, it looks like I can do that in wiki.ubuntu.com but help.ubuntu.com/community/ is a bit different
<YoBoY> jbicha, ok, it seems we are missing a <xsl:param name="use.id.as.filename">1</xsl:param> in the build/stylesheets/style-html.xsl file to have nice names for the html files
<guntbert> jbicha: sorry, I was afk - any idea how to deal with such a situation? or whom to ask?
<YoBoY> the revert action seems to only be available for some users. (admin group or moderatorsâ¦)
<guntbert> YoBoY: plausible - now I only have to find such a person :)
#ubuntu-doc 2013-11-06
 * slickymaster is away: (Dinner time)
<bkerensa> pleia2: It is very unlikely I will be able to attend vUDS but will be reviewing the video after
<pleia2> bkerensa: no problem, I expect others will be in the same boat
#ubuntu-doc 2013-11-09
<belkinsa> Is the wiki down?
<belkinsa> I think LP is down that is causing the errors for the wiki, though.
<benonsoftware> belkinsa: Yeah, someone from #launchpad said it was a power failure at the DC>
<belkinsa> Thank you
#ubuntu-doc 2014-11-04
<GunnarHj> Meeting at #ubuntu-meeting-2 now.
#ubuntu-doc 2016-11-07
<Forage> Good afternoon
<Forage> There's an "Immutable Page" wiki page that needs changing, how does one do thatÂ§
<Forage> ?
<zaki> Forage: can u give me the link
<Forage> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/KVM/Installation is out-of-date because as of libvirt 1.3.3-2ubuntu1 (in yakkety), there's no longer a group "libvirtd" available
<Forage> it's "libvirt" now (http://changelogs.ubuntu.com/changelogs/pool/main/libv/libvirt/libvirt_2.1.0-1ubuntu9/changelog)
<Forage> "Switch to 'libvirt' group, keeping the same gid as 'libvirtd' on upgrade."
<Forage> If the intention is to have users automagically added to this group than it's not the case
<Forage> (i.e. users do not get auto-added, so manual action is required)
<zaki> Forage: so you want to edit that wiki page?
<Forage> yes, section https://help.ubuntu.com/community/KVM/Installation#Add_Users_to_Groups needs a Yakkety exeption
<zaki> Forage: you have to be a member of this team https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-wiki-editors
<zaki> than you can edit an ubuntu  wiki page
<Forage> Quite an effort for adding two lines of text ;-P
<zaki> yep
<Forage> I can file it as a bug for the team as well?
<zaki> without that anyone can edit a page , whatever they want
<Forage> And at the same time people don't bother to fix things any more because it's too much of a PitA
<JCIUXSqicnBzOh> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3EsJLNGVJ7E & https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/15893 & http://i.imgur.com/TmzXvvz.jpg
#ubuntu-doc 2016-11-11
<Unhammer> Hi, https://help.ubuntu.com/community/GnuPrivacyGuardHowto#Getting_your_key_signed says to use only the last 8 chars of the fingerprints, but that's quite unsafe: https://evil32.com/ â I'm not able to log in to edit the page though, could anyone with access fix? (I've got an Ubuntu account, but it just hangs when I try to get back to the page)
<pmatulis> Unhammer, what text do you have in mind?
#ubuntu-doc 2017-11-11
<Amijai> hey. I'd like to read the Ubuntu Installation Guide on my e-reader/ Where can I get th latest version in ePub format?
