#ubuntu-doc 2005-05-17
<jsgotangco> good morning
<Burgundavia> salut
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, what is happening?
<Burgundavia> not much
<jsgotangco> even svn isn't active
<jsgotangco> :(
<Burgundavia> no
<Burgundavia> I need to email elmo my new key
<Burgundavia> and then I will get active
<jsgotangco> ok
<jsgotangco> thegreedyturtle, hi there
<thegreedyturtle> hey jsgo, sorry i was idle
<thegreedyturtle> still kinda am ;)
<jsgotangco> no worries
<Burgundavia> hey
<Burgundavia> ok
<Burgundavia> quick summary
<Burgundavia> we want a web way to editing our docs in svn, using docbook
<Burgundavia> froud has investigated apache lenya
<Burgundavia> seems like it meets our needs
<Burgundavia> we need a dev to look at it and give and upcheck/downcheck
<jdub> a 'web way'?
<Burgundavia> editing online, ala a wiki, but into the svn repos
<jdub> using docbook syntax?
<Burgundavia> yes
<jdub> so writing docbook syntax into an html form that gets shunted into svn..
<Burgundavia> yes, I believe so
<jdub> that seems remarkably breakable and complicated for simple document editing procedures
<Burgundavia> I have not played with lenya myself
<Burgundavia> we are looking to involve a great many people in doc editing
<Burgundavia> provide a single source
<Burgundavia> and keep our existing infrastructure
<jdub> that sounds like using an svn or baz repository directly to me - i don't understand the web page requirement
<Burgundavia> the web requirement is to lower the exisiting barrier to editing
<Burgundavia> think of this as rosetta vs a gnome-translator
<jdub> it doesn't lower the barrier usefully
<jdub> the writer still has to author docbook
<jsgotangco> can i make a comment
<jdub> and they're stuck in an htmlarea instead of a text editor
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, jump in
<jsgotangco> i still don't see the point of the portal since the manual author still has to dump his thoughts in an html text area
<jdub> (i see lenya has some element of wysiwyg editing, but has an awful chunk of infrastructure underneath it)
<Burgundavia> ok
<jsgotangco> (the awful chunk of intfrastructure can be the xslt stuff)
<Burgundavia> the team almost ripped itself apart in January discussing major changes
<Burgundavia> we decided that the path of least resistance was to develop a web portal to our existing docbook/svn stuff
<jdub> that sounds like a heck of a lot of wasted time to me
<Burgundavia> can you suggest a better solution (I am asking seriously)
<jdub> sorry, but a good editor, sensible revision control (svn or preferably baz) and useful preview tools (yelp) are all you need to start writing and contributing good documentation
<Burgundavia> what about single source?
<Burgundavia> I want to remove all docs from the wiki (hopefully)
<jdub> so, you have to get used to the idea that it will never happen :)
<jsgotangco> i still like our current setup
<jsgotangco> (its quite simple really)
* Burgundavia is very very frustrated now
<jdub> official documentation in revision control and in the distro (packages) is hugely beneficial
* Burgundavia really really really should have been at UDU
<jdub> because you have a clear place to contribute (both docs, translations, etc)
<jdub> and a clear delivery path (packages in the distro)
<jdub> you could also autogenerate them for a website
<Burgundavia> what about on the web?
<jdub> if you want to deliver them to a website, that's really simple
<jdub> there will always be stuff going on in the wiki
<Burgundavia> ok
<Burgundavia> I am talking single source
<Burgundavia> the wiki is currently filled with crap, from our perspective
<jdub> in fact, having the wiki makes finding people for the documentation team so much easier
<Burgundavia> most of what we are discussing has been hashed out many times on the doc team lists
<jdub> we can pluck great contributors from the wiki into the doc team, and get them working on the distro docs
<Burgundavia> I am trying to move forward what we discussed there
<jdub> ok, so my suggestion for moving forward:
<jdub> * docbook in revision control
<Burgundavia> but you are failing to address the major issue that still exists
<jdub> * attempt to automate package building for testing purposes
<jdub> * do some gonzo web delivery for testing purposes, maybe spruce it up and make it sexy later on
<Burgundavia> what about getting it back from the web?
<jdub> * hack more talk less! :)
<jsgotangco> jdub, ROCK
<Burgundavia> I am trying to get something together here
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, to be honest, you are not helping
<Burgundavia> I am very very mad now
<jdub> well, further down the track we could look into doing documentation commentary like php.net, but in the distro instead of on the web
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, i don't seewhy we have to complicate this to be honest
<jdub> but there's no point making things complicated to start with
<jsgotangco> my problem at the moment is that no one is pulling docs from svn except some people
<Burgundavia> I am going to walk away, and when I come back, I am going to post a message to the devel list about what the doc team has dicussed, what we have found, and where we need to move
<jsgotangco> our svn is still empty
<jdub> jsgotangco: empty?
<jdub> i thought all the distro doc bits were in it
<jsgotangco> empty as in old docs
<jsgotangco> i meant it still has old docs
<jsgotangco> its not really moving that much
<jdub> yeah
<jsgotangco> just look at the commit list
<jdub> seems there's more discussion about infrastructure issues than actual doc hacking :)
<jsgotangco> i know
<jsgotangco> thats why i believe froud is getting frustrated at this
<jsgotangco> this is not a complicated issue
<jsgotangco> jdub, http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2005-May/002220.html
<Burgundavia> ok
<Burgundavia> sorry, needed to blow off steam
<Burgundavia> Sean and I have spent the past 2 months talking about this issue
<Burgundavia> and this is what we came up with
<Burgundavia> so, yes there has already been a lot of talk
<Burgundavia> this is about how to move it forward
<jdub> i don't see the necessity for a "web portal" to move forward
<jdub> we already have the tools
<Burgundavia> basically, I said, we need a web way to edit stuff
<jdub> but you don't
<Burgundavia> sean said, lets not lose the exisiting infrastructure
<jsgotangco> jdub, would it be possible to consider this for the future instead for this release cycle
<jdub> you have a much better tool on your hard disk
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, no
<jdub> a web browser is a hideous place to write docbook
<Burgundavia> at least let us try and then fail
<jdub> you actually have all the tools you need already
<Burgundavia> before you condemn us to fail beforehand
<Burgundavia> I find that very annoying
<jdub> i'm not saying it will fail
<jsgotangco> i can only imagine our portal becoming like the wiki sorry but that's how i feel about this
<jdub> i'm saying you have everything you need to write and publish documentation
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, we can control access to a web portal much easier
<Burgundavia> jdub, I am saying we don't
<jdub> you don't need a web portal to write docs
<Burgundavia> jdub, you don't need rosettta to translate either, by the same logic
<jdub> that's absolutely true
<Burgundavia> but it makes it easier
<Burgundavia> this is about making it easier
<Burgundavia> Ubuntu is about making it easier
<jdub> dude
<jdub> emotional argument is not useful argument
<Burgundavia> I am just very frustrating
<Burgundavia> because we have a workable solution
<Burgundavia> froud has tested it
<Burgundavia> we just need a dev to implement it
<jdub> no, dude
<jdub> this is silliness
<jdub> you already have all the tools you need
<jdub> every other project out there has written documentation without a 'web portal'
<Burgundavia> most docs suck
<Burgundavia> and they don't involve the community
<jdub> in exactly the same way that every other project out there has translations done in emacs
<jdub> that is incorrect
<Burgundavia> suffice it to say that we need a better way. We really do. The web is a very easy tool to getting people involved
<Burgundavia> lets harness that
<jdub> i'm sorry, but this is emotional claptrap
<jdub> a) you don't need a better way, you need to actually write docs
<Burgundavia> jdub, that is rude
<jdub> b) you don't need more people involved, you need a small team doing great work - *then* you can scale up
<jdub> this is infrastructural fantasy stuff
<jdub> the point about rosetta is fine, but translation has actually scaled to the point where rosetta can be useful
<jdub> documentation, within ubuntu, has not
<jdub> a better first step would be to have web based commentary on documentation, like php
<jdub> then integrating that with yelp, the documentation reader in gnome
<Burgundavia> commentary on docs?
<jdub> that will allow people to contribute to the documentation in a useful way, and have documentors operating as editors of those contributions
<jdub> further down the track, using something similar to monodoc for user contributions far beyond commentary would be great
<jdub> but it's very, very important to start small and scale up
<Burgundavia> then fundamentally is the difference between that and what I am proposing?
<jdub> i'm talking about the future
<jdub> nice things to have
<Burgundavia> I think the people will appear "when you build it"
<jdub> they're entirely unnecessary for writing documentation right now, however
<jdub> we have the best tools to hand already
<jdub> revision control (svn or even better, baz)
<Burgundavia> we currently use svn, talk to us later about changing
<Burgundavia> we are also not going to change from docbook
<jdub> emacs or vi with docbook/xml editing helpers, or even conglomerate if it's stable enough
<Burgundavia> thus, we need an easy way to involve people
<Burgundavia> conglomerate is not
<jdub> ok, the easy way to involve people is this:
<Burgundavia> I use bluefish myself
<jdub> do absolutely fantastic work and inspire people to get on board
<Burgundavia> look, docs are glamourous
<Burgundavia> every single barrier, no matter how small, that is in the way migth be the showstopper
<Burgundavia> observe gnome docs
<jdub> i understand
<jdub> ah, gnome documentation has different problems
<jdub> related to scaling and branching
<Burgundavia> on the web eliminates a huge barrier of getting another program and learning how to use that, etc.
<jdub> no, it doesn't significantly help
<jdub> unless the user doesn't have to write docbook
<Burgundavia> I don't want documentors to have to deal with version control
<Burgundavia> taht should just happen
<jdub> which can be done with desktop tools too :)
<Burgundavia> which ones?
<Burgundavia> eSVN?
<jdub> no
<jdub> dude
<jdub> scale up
<jdub> forget this infrastructure fancy
<Burgundavia> jdub, I am saying we will scale when we have the structure in place
<jdub> the important thing is to do great work - that's what gets people interested to help out
<jdub> you don't need to scale now
<jdub> you need to start
<Burgundavia> please just implement the lenya thing, and then we can talk
<Burgundavia> we can make that an official request, if you want
<jdub> "then we can talk"?
<jdub> dude
<jdub> seriously
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, that didnt sound right
* Burgundavia thought this would be easy
<jdub> it's not easy because it's not right or compeling
<jdub> compelling
<jdub> the doc team doesn't need more infrastructure to write docs
<jdub> it needs more docs :-)
<jdub> that's what will get people interested
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, have you read through the backlog of this channel and doc-list?
<jdub> one of the past gnome doc team leaders learnt docbook specifically to contribute
<jdub> i know guys who've learnt C to contribute to gnome
<Burgundavia> I am trying to find the email exchange mark, sean and I had
<Burgundavia> just a sec
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, irclog no, but doc-list yes, for me its all pointless as no one is pulling docs from svn
<jsgotangco> svn is all that matters to me at the moment
<jdub> the real lesson here is not to get bogged down in irrelevant details
<jdub> start small, kick arse, scale when necessary, not before
<jdub> i understand the attraction, but i've seen way too many projects kill themselves doing things that are unrelated to their real goals
<jdub> i have to get some lunch :-)
<jsgotangco> me too
<jsgotangco> jdub, thanks for the time
<Burgundavia> jdub, take a read through this thread --> http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2005-April/001755.html
<jdub> so i just had a long walk to get lunch
<jdub> and thought about a bunch of the problems
<jsgotangco> sounds good i just arrived from lunch as well
<jdub> i think the first part is really basic
<jdub> this talk about a web portal assumes that the major role of the doc team is 'writing docs'
<jdub> where really, it isn't
<jdub> at least not this early on
<jdub> there's an enormous amount we can do simply by using what we have, and integrating it in a more useful way
<jdub> there's very little that needs to be done from scratch
<jdub> *very* little
<Burgundavia> that is the point of lenya
<Burgundavia> it is already a fairly mature app
<jdub> oh, dude, come on
<Burgundavia> in fact, they just added some measure of WYSIWYG editing
<jsgotangco> ok i want to base on my experience im no docbook expert at all, sean took the time to mentor me and most of what I know came from him but it didnt stop me from doing stuff in what we currently have in a learning standpoint it is very interesting but can be intimidating to the new user
<jsgotangco> id rather have contributors who know some level of docbook or at least willing to bitethe bullet instead of giving them toned-down tools
<jsgotangco> too much abstraction muddles things
<Burgundavia> jdub, jsgotangco, sorry, my ex is calling, I must run
<jdub> Burgundavia: "the point of lenya" is not to realise that we hardly need to write new docs at all
<Burgundavia> jdub, say again?
<jdub> i've relayed a thought about hardly needing to write docs at all, and you've somehow related it to a document writing tool
<jdub> it ends up sounding silly after a while
<Burgundavia> I am still not understanding what you are saying
<jsgotangco> hmm you mean using technology for the sake of technology instead of your end goal?
<Burgundavia> web based writing is not technology for the sake of technology
<jdub> Burgundavia: you inserted your current argument into an unrelated point
<Burgundavia> ok
<jdub> here's me saying we don't need to write new docs
<jdub> and here's you saying "this is what a doc writing tool is for!"
<jdub> it doesn't gel
<jdub> and it sounds silly
<Burgundavia> ok
<Burgundavia> what I got from you is that current tools are suffecient not "we don't need to write new docs"
<jdub> oddly, i'm saying both
<Burgundavia> what do you mean about writing new docs?
<jdub> but the latter is a new thought
<Burgundavia> are you saying we just need to collate what is out there?
<Burgundavia> that is total crack
<jdub> it is not total crack
<jdub> we have a wealth of documentation already
<jsgotangco> it makes sense reusing what we currently have
<jdub> and it is inadequately presented to users
<Burgundavia> good docs are visual
<jsgotangco> we just have to weed out the crack ones
<Burgundavia> visual requires screenshots/etc.
<Burgundavia> which are by there very nature Ubuntu specific
<jdub> but you're assuming that requires fresh new documentation
<Burgundavia> at the very least, it requires major refactoring of exisiting docs
<jdub> and ignoring the massive benefits we can give to users from existing works
<jdub> no dude
<jdub> even before refactoring
<jdub> there is a lot we can do
<jdub> for instance
<Burgundavia> sorry, really have to go this time
<jdub> early in the warty cycle
<Burgundavia> my ex is here
<Burgundavia> countinue what you have to say
<Burgundavia> I can read in the scrollback
<Burgundavia> and respond later
<jdub> i suggested (and thom implemented) integration of the debian doc metadata and OMF
<jdub> suddenly, we almost doubled the documentation available in yelp
<jdub> that's a huge win
<jdub> with very little work
<jsgotangco> jdub, most argue that no one reads documentation in yelp
<jdub> just pulling together stuff we already have
<jdub> jsgotangco: well hey, lots of people argue that no one reads documentation :-)
<jsgotangco> ok same goes then so we have so much stuff in the wiki
<jsgotangco> some are gold, some are crack
<jsgotangco> i still believe we can weed out the crack in that
<jdub> (i don't think either argument has much merit)
<jsgotangco> and integrate in current svn
<jdub> yeah, there's a bunch of stuff we can do there
<jdub> but there's way more we can do without even touching a line of docbook
<jsgotangco> we all agreed in UDU that our wiki needs a facelift thats why we had a bof for that
<jdub> yeah, switching away from zwiki will make life simpler
<jdub> that was an unfortunate mistake
<jsgotangco> i still believe that since docbook gets frozen our wiki is the natural exgtension of the documentation therefore needs tighter controls
<jdub> the wiki needs tighter controls?
<jsgotangco> well at least have someone review what people have been posting on it
<thegreedyturtle> 'hoy
<jdub> yes
<jdub> it needs farming
<thegreedyturtle> i kinda disagree with that, i think that the wiki needs to be very free, and then the docteam takes the best of it and moves it into the official docs
<jsgotangco> we shouldn't remove its collaborative nature
<jdub> thegreedyturtle: (you're not disagreeing)
<thegreedyturtle> im disagreeing with the statement that the wiki needs tighter controls
<jdub> thegreedyturtle: jsgotangco just clarified that
<thegreedyturtle> mm, im not so sure about even review myself though
<thegreedyturtle> it would be good for keeping the wiki organized though
<jdub> every good wiki needs farmers
<jsgotangco> you end up with ambigious docs
<thegreedyturtle> clarify farmers?
<jsgotangco> farmers weed stuff
<jdub> people who roam the wiki, tidying stuff up, culling the crap, etc.
<thegreedyturtle> got it
<jsgotangco> so far mdke is doing good work on that
<thegreedyturtle> is mdke post on the list at all? i don't have the names matched to the irc handles yet
<jsgotangco> im sure contributors are interested in learning some docbook
<jsgotangco> thegreedyturtle, mdke is matthew east
<thegreedyturtle> ok
<jsgotangco> jdub is jeff waugh
<thegreedyturtle> thanks
<thegreedyturtle> being fairly new myself, i think the biggest hurdle for new people isn't actually the docbook formats, but accessing the repositories
<jsgotangco> hmmm you mean by committing or just accessing
<jsgotangco> its not that difficult
<thegreedyturtle> a bit of both, and i know it's not difficult, but consider what happens when someone checks out the document source code
<thegreedyturtle> they suddenly get this huge dump of code, and it's easy to get overwhelmed
<thegreedyturtle> and then: what to do next?
<jsgotangco> well you check out svn because you expect that stuff right
<thegreedyturtle> well, you check out the svn because you expect it, and I check out the svn because I expect it, but someone who just wants to submit a quick document about how they made something work would not want that stuff
<thegreedyturtle> they just want to write a paper and feel good about it - which is why wikis are so popular... which brings us back to the root
<jsgotangco> we can't put all that stuff in svn much less include every contribution
<thegreedyturtle> very true - so the question here is how can we allow a user who doesn't want to deal with docbook and svn to contribute to something other than a wiki?
<thegreedyturtle> the simple way is to use farmers
<jdub> thegreedyturtle: further down the track - annotated documentation, either on the web or in yelp
<jdub> but it's *further down the track*
<jdub> no point worrying about it now
<thegreedyturtle> righto
<jsgotangco> ok we're going back to where we started, this is not a complicated thing some people have submitted docs in OOo or other format and we've publishedit as docbook
<thegreedyturtle> so that's your earlier point about just getting something 'on paper' ?
<thegreedyturtle> you are saying that someone submitted as OOo and someone else did the conversion for them, right?
<jsgotangco> right
<jsgotangco> (although OOo to Docbook isn't the cleanest thing available at the moment)
<thegreedyturtle> from your experience, do you think that's scaleable?
<thegreedyturtle> another question, one of you mentioned that the svn documents are all old?
<thegreedyturtle> what are they old compared to?
<thegreedyturtle> another repo, the wiki, ... ?
<thegreedyturtle> (im kinda picking your brain now.. :)
<jsgotangco> if you mean scaleable in a sense that we can do it for everyone everyday, no its not the most effective way but we don't do that everyday
<jsgotangco> (i don't think traffic of that kind won't go up either)
<jsgotangco> when I said old, i meant hoary old docs since we're in breezy, there are some stuff that may not be applicable now
<thegreedyturtle> ok
<jsgotangco> (if you look at the commit list nothing much has moved either)
<jsgotangco> (which is understandable because we're still to early to do effective docs for breezy)
<jdub> thegreedyturtle: luckily, we don't need to be concerned about scalability this early on :-)
<jsgotangco> right
<thegreedyturtle> you guys both running breezy right now?
<jsgotangco> my other machine runs breezy
<thegreedyturtle> is it worth running yet?
<jsgotangco> i wouldn't use it as main of course
<thegreedyturtle> ok
<jsgotangco> but some people i met in UDU run breezy in their laptops
<thegreedyturtle> mmm UDU, that was prolly lotsa fun neh?
<jsgotangco> it was fun but it was work at the same time
<jsgotangco> (we watched hitchiker's guide though)
<thegreedyturtle> brb
<thegreedyturtle> fun, work, what's the difference?
<thegreedyturtle> what do you usually use to edit docbook, just an xml editor?
<jsgotangco> heck even emacs will do
<thegreedyturtle> yeah but I'm lazy...
<jsgotangco> well being lazy won't start things really
<thegreedyturtle> it's not a lazy as in start things, more lazy as in i want the convenience of a simple editor, but i guess it doesn't matter
<jsgotangco> i like learning new stuff i guess it really depends on the person
<thegreedyturtle> i like learning stuff too, but right now im up to my nostril hairs
<thegreedyturtle> i have a subversion book to read, a docbook to read, and im still finishing essential sys admin, let alone my programming courses at college. I also want to at least get a small 'code portfolio' under my belt, and toss in a girlfriend... you get the idea :)
<thegreedyturtle> and I still needs a job...
<thegreedyturtle> hence, the easier it is to contribute, the more I'll be able to
<thegreedyturtle> anyhoo, im off to work on the above list, i appreciate your ear 
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, check your mail
<jsgotangco> ok reading now
<jsgotangco> ok at least we'll know if we're go or no
<Burgundavia> basically I am tired of talking this issue
<Burgundavia> and jdub really really pissed me off
<Burgundavia> we have hashed out nearly every detail, we just need the implementation now
<jsgotangco> ill try out lenya myself later it looks mighty interesting
<Burgundavia> lenya looks really really cool
<Kinnison> Morning
<Burgundavia> salut Kinnison 
<Burgundavia> I was arguing with more people today
<Kinnison> heh
<Burgundavia> this time it was jdub
<Burgundavia> I aim high
* Kinnison grins
<Burgundavia> tomorrow it will be mark
<Burgundavia> oh wait, already done that
<Burgundavia> bugzilla bug 8516
<Burgundavia> in other news, corey is looking forward to helping out more with malone
<jsgotangco> spatial?
<Burgundavia> yep
<jsgotangco> that was a nasty thread
<Burgundavia> Ubuntu spatial breaks usablity
<Kinnison> Yeah, I don't like it, but my father does
<Burgundavia> the closing window way?
<Kinnison> yep
<Burgundavia> seems to split the community
<Kinnison> aye
<Burgundavia> ala the menu bar thing
<Kinnison> having a config option in breezy is a *must* IMO
<Burgundavia> window vs global
* Kinnison reads his IRC backlog
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, check your mail
<jsgotangco> wait
<jsgotangco> it might work but it'll take some time
<Burgundavia> I just sent that to the list to highlight the importance of getting our portal up
<jsgotangco> brb
* jdub boggles at cory
<jdub> corey
* Kinnison tickles jdub 
<HappyFool> i've written a page on the ubuntu wiki, and one of the comments I've made is that it *might* be unsafe to edit /etc/modules -- is this overly conservative? What could realistically go wrong? (page is http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/IntelFiveThreeSixEPModemHowto)
<HappyFool> oh, and hello ;)
<thegreedyturtle> meeting at #ubuntu-meeting
<Burgundavia> indeed
<mvirkkil> Any news about the CD shipments?
<Burgundavia> we are not the correct people to ask
<Burgundavia> and they will contact you when they ship, to confirm the addy
<mvirkkil> Burgundavia: Just wondering. Didn't want to ask in ubuntu-devel either. Oh, well. Patience is a virtue :-)
<Burgundavia> indeed
#ubuntu-doc 2005-05-18
<Burgundavia> I got mentioned in lugradio
<mpt> Well that makes two of us, Burgundavia :-)
<mpt> What were they talking about?
<Burgundavia> generally making fun of my name and reading my letter out
<Burgundavia> then they talked about non-free launchpad
<mpt> ah
<mpt> So they discovered non-free Launchpad *after* voting Ubuntu as Least Evil Distribution
<Burgundavia> indeed
<Burgundavia> well
<Burgundavia> technically, launchpad != ubuntu
<mpt> sure
<Burgundavia> but they are going to be tied together
* Burgundavia curses Java
<mpt> and such fine distinctions would certainly be lost on those guys
<Burgundavia> http://www.spicetrade.org/ <-- this looks really cool, but has java deps out the wazoo
<jsgotangco> morning
<jsgotangco> brb
<jsgotangco> conglomerate is so buggy
<Burgundavia> indeed
<Burgundavia> I use bluefish to do my editing
<jsgotangco> does bluefish have a template already?
<Burgundavia> it has some docbook stuff
<froud> Burgundavia: morn, c u have the same problem s as me
<Burgundavia> I mostly like to write everything by hand
<Burgundavia> froud, with jdub?
<froud> It is not just jdub
<froud> is a religious question
<Burgundavia> just trying to push it forward
<froud> give up dont waste your time
<Burgundavia> no, I refuse to give up
<froud> if they dont care why should we
<froud> oh well your funeral
<froud> I appreciat eyour support on this but really they have no clue and dont want to listen
<froud> personally I dont have the time to waste on such people
* froud is getting really fucked off with things
<froud> this is not the first time
<Burgundavia> indeed
<froud> so this time I am just not going to worry myself on it
<Burgundavia> mark/mdz sounded supportize
<Burgundavia> wow, what a word
<Burgundavia> supportive, even
<froud> well I still wait for responses on several issues
<froud> until those are addressed, I hang low
<froud> when I get time I will commit
<froud> but I am not gonna stess myself for people who dont care to pull back
<froud> I can be more productive at the fringes
<froud> smaller projects
<jsgotangco> :(
<froud> like I did before the release on four or five apps
<froud> well, must goo, just cam eto say hi and let you know my feelings.
<jsgotangco> :(
<Burgundavia> now you see why need to keep the momentum jstangco?
<Burgundavia> froud did a lot of work with that portal
<Burgundavia> just to see it disappear in smoke, or apparently
<Burgundavia> that is why I am not going to let it get away
<Burgundavia> I intend to be very persistent about making sure something this happens
<jsgotangco> well ok the portal can open up a lot of things for us but im not so optimistic about being able to use it in time for breezy
<Burgundavia> I am
<Burgundavia> I am because I have to be
<Burgundavia> docs don't take long to write
<jdub> a "religious" issue?
<Burgundavia> once the thing is in place
<jdub> golly
<Burgundavia> java
<Burgundavia> froud is seriously pissed
<jdub> oh well
<jsgotangco> well ok the fridge is supposed to run something that elmo might not want to have but he's willing
<Burgundavia> fridge is read only
<Burgundavia> very very cool, but not what we are really looking for
<jdub> if you and he can only express your point of view in these terms, i'm not really all that fussed
<jdub> none of this really matters to a well functioning documentation team anyway
<Burgundavia> froud was the person that I spent the longest time convincing to make a portal
<Burgundavia> this is not something that we thought up over a weekend and pulled out of our ass
<jdub> i don't think anyone's suggesting you did
<Burgundavia> that is why I find your attitude very annoyed and condecending, to tell you the truth
<jdub> but there are quite a few people suggesting that it's unnecessarily complex for the task at hand
<jdub> perhaps you should take a moment to think about it
<Burgundavia> like who?
<Burgundavia> you?
<Burgundavia> I haven't seen anybody say that
<jsgotangco> oh boy we could have done a lot of work already without this chit chat
* jsgotangco away
<Burgundavia> jdub, what I guess it boils down to, is "if you build it, they will come"
<jdub> Burgundavia: this is true of documentation, but not true of a web portal
<jdub> Burgundavia: i'm happy to give you a phone call to describe why this entire discussion is a waste of time
<Burgundavia> can you suggest something better?
<jdub> yes
<Burgundavia> the status-quo isn't working
<jdub> heh
<Burgundavia> I am open to any sort of technology
<jdub> the answer is not "more tools" or "bigger infrastructure"
<jdub> and "more technology" is *definitely* not the answer to a social problem
<Burgundavia> jdub, I found another wiki last night
<Burgundavia> one for PPC
<Burgundavia> there is reason people are creating these wikis
<jdub> i see you related our conversation yesterday as a "failure to communicate"
<Burgundavia> they are easy to create docs in
<jdub> yes, because our current wiki is very difficult to use and inadequately maintained
<jdub> if you still feel we failed to communicate, i'm very happy to call you
<Burgundavia> I am happy to have one big wiki for everything
<Burgundavia> but froud explained to me that keeping stuff in SVN is very useful
<Burgundavia> so I said, how do I marry the two concepts
<jdub> for a certain class of documentation, sure
<jdub> i think you are getting stuck on concepts and not thinking outside them
<Burgundavia> the biggest hole in our docs is short, wiki-style howtos
<jdub> i disagree - there are plenty of things we can do to improve our documentation without writing anything at all
<Burgundavia> communication of where they are is huge
<Burgundavia> part of the portal plan was to move docs to something like help.ubuntu.com
<Burgundavia> and then advertise the crap out of it
<jdub> and yet, the most important place for documentation is in the distribution itself
<Burgundavia> I agree there
<jdub> i'm not really interested in this cyclical discussion
<Burgundavia> ok
<jdub> if you want me to call, send me your details
<Burgundavia> 1-250-385-3507
<jsgotangco> oh man
<jsgotangco> we can't stop people from making their own wikis/guides
<jsgotangco> if we make good docs that people trust, users would refer to our docs not to other wiki/guides that are suspect
<jsgotangco> :(
* Burgundavia is the phone
<jsgotangco> i know
<jsgotangco> :(
* jsgotangco can just imagine jdub's phone bill if he's not using VoIP
<Burgundavia> off the phone
<Burgundavia> I had a good conversation
<Burgundavia> jdub can bill it to canonical
<jdub> jsgotangco: calling cards - very cheap :-)
<Burgundavia> even to Canada
<jsgotangco> the Hello! phone cards?
<jsgotangco> i bought those
<jsgotangco> heh
<jsgotangco> $10 can give you 300 minutes
<jdub> that's the one :)
<Burgundavia> phone cards are a rip for short phone calls, however
<jsgotangco> ok so you two had a good chat i assume
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> while not cured of my wanting a web portal, I am more convinced of jdubs way
<jsgotangco> hmmm can you elaborate?
<Burgundavia> I just had to remember that jdub got his job by being very smart
<Burgundavia> basically, the doc team needs some good direction
<Burgundavia> he suggested some good ways
<Burgundavia> such as finding/sorting/making available is a better way existing upstreamer docs
* jsgotangco grumbles of not asking jdub how to be smart
<Burgundavia> I don't you think someone can tell you about how to be smart
<jsgotangco> ok go on
<Burgundavia> we talked about getting docs into scrollkeeper
<Burgundavia> which is the technical side of above
<Burgundavia> of which I know next to nothing about, but must learn
<Burgundavia> and we talked about the wiki transition
<Burgundavia> and wiki farming, etc.
<Burgundavia> I guess the biggest thing, was, we don't actually need to write docs
<Burgundavia> we just need to organize them more
<Burgundavia> which is sort of true
<jsgotangco> errmm i always had that thought
<Burgundavia> we still need some docs
<jsgotangco> the only thing that's stopping me from being the seb128 of docteam is that i know very little of docbook at the moment
<Burgundavia> but they can be small and mostly pointers
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, I would say then, write in the wiki
<Burgundavia> we can worry about docbook closer to release
<jsgotangco> i really hate our wiki but i guess there is no point resisting that
<Burgundavia> I have a lot of very cool ideas, but then I start writing in docbook, and I got bored really quickly
<Burgundavia> docbook is for when you have already written the text
<Burgundavia> but writing is not the focus right now
<jsgotangco> hmm ok you have a point
<Burgundavia> what I am saying is what jdub said, which is completely right
<Burgundavia> the problem is that people need a quick and easy place to write
<Burgundavia> wiki is one solution
<Burgundavia> portal is another
<Burgundavia> but the other problem is we need to tell people how to find existing docs
<jsgotangco> thats where farming and culling comes in
<Burgundavia> which is a really messy thing to even start at
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, this is more already packaged stuff
<Burgundavia> because there are dozens of forms that they are written in
<Burgundavia> and lots and lots of packages
<Burgundavia> jdub, you said we should get a script to cut packages apart and look for stuff to register in scrollkeeper?
<jsgotangco> do you know any scrollkeeper aware browser?
<Burgundavia> no idea
<Burgundavia> I am not a developer, nor do I really wish to be one
<Burgundavia> I write stuff, do talks and generally produce hot air
<jsgotangco> perfect
<jdub> jsgotangco: yelp's index is built from the documentation registered with scrollkeeper
<jsgotangco> ah right i thought of yelp
<jsgotangco> but then scrollkeeper acts as middleman as well
<Burgundavia> I thought browser as web browser
<jsgotangco> im sure the major help browsers are scrollkeeper aware
<Burgundavia> I don't know if khelp is
<Burgundavia> that seemed to be a sticking point with scrollkeeper
<Burgundavia> I think it is gnome-specific
<Burgundavia> but my memory could be bad
<jsgotangco> khelpcenter has support
<jsgotangco> as well as nautilus
<jdub> (nautilus's support was replaced with yelp)
<jsgotangco> but yelp replaced nautilus
<Burgundavia> you are correct
<Burgundavia> my memory was bad
<Burgundavia> as usual
<Burgundavia> jdub, is scrollkeeper really not had a release in 2 years>
<Burgundavia> s/is/has
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, are you using xchat?
<jsgotangco> i am
<Burgundavia> have you noticed this bug?
<jsgotangco> where?
<Burgundavia> tab completion is sometimes case-sensitive, and sometimes not
<jsgotangco> oh
<jsgotangco> no i didn't notice that
<Burgundavia> I don't know if it a real bug, or my hallucinations
<Burgundavia> here is an example
<jsgotangco> i will try random
<Burgundavia> Andy vs anndy
<Burgundavia> if you type an, you will get Andy, but if you back up to An, it won't tab complete to anndy
<jsgotangco> no i didn't notice anything like that, unfortunately, i don't have an eye for such details
<Burgundavia>  #ubuntu right now has AndyR and anathema
<Burgundavia> you can test it out
<Burgundavia> to see if I am not on crack
<Burgundavia> then I file the bug
<jsgotangco> it didnt happen to me
<jsgotangco> An still gave me AndyR
<jsgotangco> so did an
<Burgundavia> say again?
<jsgotangco> An and an gave me the same tab completed nick AndyR
<Burgundavia> they should
<Burgundavia> let AndyR complete
<Burgundavia> then deleted to AN
<jsgotangco> even if i back up to An it still gave the same result
<Burgundavia> sorry
<Burgundavia> An
<jsgotangco> it still works
<Burgundavia> the list for an is AndyR, anubis
<Burgundavia> sorry
<Burgundavia> is AndyR, anathema
<jsgotangco> you get 2 results?
<Burgundavia> the list for An is AndyR, Anubis
<Burgundavia> that is just the first to results
<Burgundavia> as hitting tab again selects the next nick
<jsgotangco> i get all an nicks irregardless of case
<Burgundavia> odd
<Burgundavia> so An and an both get AndyR, then anathema
<jsgotangco> yes
<jsgotangco> hmm
<jsgotangco> wait
<jsgotangco> An i only get AndyR and Anubis
<Burgundavia> yep
<Burgundavia> that is the bug
<jsgotangco> but an i get all of them
<Burgundavia> I think the devs were trying to be smart
<Burgundavia> and think that An would only be looking for capital A
<Burgundavia> but they failed to realize what would happen if some tab completed the wrong nick
<Burgundavia> and just deleted the number of letters to make it common
<jsgotangco> if you type a then tab, you get a list of all A/a nicks
<jsgotangco> but if you type A then tab, you only get A nicks
<jsgotangco> wrong nick after tab completion happens for fast fingers
<Burgundavia> ugh, I have to use sf.net bug tracker
* Burgundavia shoots himself
<Burgundavia> gah
<Burgundavia> I can't wait until malone rocks
<jsgotangco> we need docteam love
<Burgundavia> docteam love?
<Burgundavia> we need a good direction
<Burgundavia> I can't provide that
<jsgotangco> you can try
* jsgotangco not cut enough at the moment
<Burgundavia> I don't know where we need to go
<jsgotangco> ok ill do breezy tommorow and check where we can start
<Burgundavia> we need people with clear vision
<Burgundavia> I don't have that when it comes to the docteam
<Burgundavia> because I don't understand a lot of the technical side of things
<jsgotangco> im not good on that either but im learning
<Burgundavia> there is the clear disconnect
<Burgundavia> it is very frustrating
<Burgundavia> because I realise how little interest I actually have in mucking with those kinds of details
<jsgotangco> hmm lugradio really trashed ubuntu heh
<jsgotangco> the mad philantrophist
<jsgotangco> doh
<Burgundavia> they even mentioned me
<Burgundavia> lugradio actually love ubuntu
<jsgotangco> hmmm i probably missed you there
<Burgundavia> right at the end, in the email section
<Burgundavia> my real name is Corey Burger
<jsgotangco> yeah ill just listen to it again tonight
<Burgundavia> generally it was good
<Burgundavia> even though the linspire guy was pure marketing
<jsgotangco> heh
<jsgotangco> the only real technical guy here who's capable of this stuff is froud at the moment
<Burgundavia> yes
<jsgotangco> or jeff perhaps if he's willing?
<jsgotangco> jeffsch i mean
<Burgundavia> no idea, I have not interacted much with him
<jsgotangco> but i think both are quite busy atm
<jsgotangco> maybe a devel should mentor us at least?
<Burgundavia> that is something I thought of
<Burgundavia> jdub is going to email the list with specifics
<Burgundavia> and then we can go from there
<jsgotangco> thats a good start
<jsgotangco> brb
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, do you use f-spot?
<Burgundavia> nope
<Burgundavia> don't own a camera
<jsgotangco> ok it just froze on me hmm
<Burgundavia> f-spot is very cool, but quite alpha
<jsgotangco> very
<jsgotangco> http://www.flickr.com/photos/jsgotangco/
<jsgotangco> just some photos
<Burgundavia> cool
<jsgotangco> bye bye
<mvirkkil> Burgundavia: Didn't have to be pacient for long, I got the Ubuntu CD:s today (though the bag looked like it had gone to hell and back).
<mvirkkil> ^--- patient even
<jjesse> is that the free cds from shipit?
<mvirkkil> jjesse: Yes. I ordered 8 x86 and one ppc and one amd64. They arrived in an envelope that had been so poorly treated it resembled a bag. 
<mvirkkil> The envelope had a bubble wrapped inside.
<mdke> hi all
<thegreedyturtle> jiyuu0- sent you a pm on ubuntuforums.org
<thegreedyturtle> you'll have to tell me if the torrent works for ya, luckily ubuntu comes with gnome-torrent preinstalled, so it should be very easy for newbies to get their hands on it
#ubuntu-doc 2005-05-19
<jiyuu0> thegreedyturtle, i'm tryin the torrent now
<jiyuu0> thanks
<jiyuu0> been waiting for 5 minutes now... seems not moving
<jiyuu0> maybe my line is bad
<jiyuu0> will wait a little longer
<jiyuu0> azureus can really suck mem
<jiyuu0> :(
<thegreedyturtle> sorry about that, i was working on a kernel thing and forgot to restart azureus last time i rebooted
<thegreedyturtle> i just added it and you should be uploading now
<thegreedyturtle> doesn't appear to have connected you though
<jiyuu0> true... seems not moving
<thegreedyturtle> well, i've switched it to super seed it and the tracker is ok, maybe it'll just take a little time to propagate
<jiyuu0> ok... i'll wait :)
<thegreedyturtle> it says i've uploaded 168.7 to someone, so i'm pretty sure it's working for someone 
<jiyuu0> Seeds 0(1)
<thegreedyturtle> now i've got a seeds 0(1) and peers 0(0)
<jiyuu0> 0(0)
<jiyuu0> how fast is ur line there?
<thegreedyturtle> 2mbit down 512kb up
<thegreedyturtle> i know my ports are open, i don't have any problems seeding other files
<jiyuu0> ic... then maybe it could be my prob here
<thegreedyturtle> im going to test on another computer here
<thegreedyturtle> yeah it's off and running here
<Burgundavia> salut mpt
<jiyuu0> thegreedyturtle,  ok... can u creata another torrent for the enhance version
<thegreedyturtle> sure
<thegreedyturtle> got a link for it?
<jiyuu0> http://www.frankandjacq.com/ubuntuguide/add-on-cd/ubuntu-5.04-add-on-cd-e-2005-05-08.tgz
<jiyuu0> i'll put the torrent for ppl to download once u r done
<thegreedyturtle> shouldn't take me more than a few minutes after i get it downloaded
* jiyuu0 envy ppl with fast line... 
<jiyuu0> i'm only on 512k broadband here :(
<thegreedyturtle> i understand, im about to go on vacation for 2 weeks w/ only dial up access
<thegreedyturtle> but then i've become an internet snob...
<thegreedyturtle> can't live w/out high speed
<thegreedyturtle> and i don't even play games anymore
<jiyuu0> u must be downloading tons of stuff huh
<thegreedyturtle> i wish i'd had this system rescue cd when i was resizing my / partition
<thegreedyturtle> yeah, and i live with a big family who also download tons of stuff
<jiyuu0> ubuntu should come with the resize tool during install
<thegreedyturtle> but it's mostly been .iso's of debian/ubuntu/fedora, i only recently have really settled on ubuntu
<thegreedyturtle> i was messing with my partitions post install. i ended up using ubuntu live and then actually installing gparted with apt to do my resize
<thegreedyturtle> i probably could have done it on the live filesystem, but i haven't goofed with it
<thegreedyturtle> i remember talking to a poor guy that had ubuntu automatically partition his hard drive for him, then made a new partition in the back of the drive and expected the front of his drive to still have the ntfs data on it...
<mpt> hi Burgundavia
* Burgundavia just saw an ice cream truck, complete with sound. Didn't know they still existed
<Burgundavia> how is launchpad work going?
<thegreedyturtle> jiyuu0, It's ready, the direct download is at http://www.torrentbox.com/download.php/15558/ubuntu-5.04-add-on-cd-e-2005-05-08.tgz.torrent or you can see the webpage at: http://www.torrentbox.com/torrents-details.php?id=15558&uploaded=1
<thegreedyturtle> i've got a download testing and it's coming along fine. Sadly it's slow still because I'm the only one seeding it.
<jsgotangco> morning
<jsgotangco> jdub, a minute?
<jsgotangco> ok i will bite the bullet and send this email
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, email?
<jsgotangco> im still finishing stuff its about packaged documentation
<Burgundavia> ok, have you been doing work in that area?
<jsgotangco> im more interested in fixing up the existing docs from scrollkeeper/svn rather than write new docs there is so much to fix there
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jsgotangco> i have some ideas
<Burgundavia> that is what I meant
<jsgotangco> but i need to get reactions from devels if its possible
<jsgotangco> i think its possible
* Burgundavia is working on his brothers xp machine
<jsgotangco> i was digging into scrollkeeper lst night
<jsgotangco> found at least 81 entries
<Burgundavia> ah
<jsgotangco> probably 300+ omf files
<jsgotangco> which means we have like 300+ packaged docs in a default hoary install
<jsgotangco> the problem is digging through that docs
<jsgotangco> some of them are so old
<jsgotangco> yet they got in
<Burgundavia> yesa
<jsgotangco> ubuntu-doc is just one entry in scrollkeeper
<Burgundavia> a lot of upstream docs suck
<jsgotangco> yeah we need to cull some upstream if possible
<Burgundavia> hmm, some of the upstreams are dead
<Burgundavia> so any changes we make, we must maintain
<jsgotangco> thats the point
<Burgundavia> can you put what you find on a wiki page?
<Burgundavia> so we can discuss further
<jsgotangco> sure but i will email this first
<Burgundavia> prioritze what we want to fix/work on
<Burgundavia> ok
<jsgotangco> i want to prioritize the upstream stuff and how ubuntu-specific docs would fit in
<Burgundavia> cool
<jsgotangco> i think this is what enrico has been doing before
<Burgundavia> probably
<jsgotangco> but wasnt able to finish
<Burgundavia> enrico has kind of dropped off the planet
<jsgotangco> he has a job
<Burgundavia> ah
<jsgotangco> i think this is what jdub is trying to say
<Burgundavia> evil evil things, jobs
* Burgundavia needs to start looking for one real soon now
* jsgotangco too
<jsgotangco> im way over my head im not so sure if its possible to manipulate this kind of stuff through scrollkeeper or yelp
<jsgotangco> well yelp is another story but its only a browser
<jsgotangco> i think its more on scrollkeeper
<Burgundavia> I also have no idea
<jsgotangco> i've tried rebuilding the scrollkeeper db but there are some with no entries so i guess i am right in some aspects
<jsgotangco> when we say upstream, we refer to stuff lifted from gnome/debian right?
<Burgundavia> any upstream
<jsgotangco> and downstream?
<Burgundavia> downstream is us
<jsgotangco> us to them?
<Burgundavia> coder --> packager --> us
<Burgundavia> upstream from us is the packager (usually debian) and the coder
<mpt> Burgundavia: very very slowly
* mpt is getting more RAM tomorrow, though
<Burgundavia> mpt, how much do you currently have? 1 gig makes my machine run quite nicely
<mpt> 256MB
<Burgundavia> ouch
<mpt> Getting 1.25 GB tomorrow
<Burgundavia> lucky bugger
<jsgotangco> hi mpt
<mpt> hello
* Burgundavia has been playing with the cool new things on breezy, like beagle
<jsgotangco> you're on breezy already?
<Burgundavia> yep
<Burgundavia> got itchy feet
<Burgundavia> had to jump
<jsgotangco> i see tseng has already packaged beagle
<Burgundavia> yes, is very cool
<jsgotangco> i will update my other box to breezy later then
<jsgotangco> did Beep MP come in as default?
<Burgundavia> no, beep is crap
<Burgundavia> ubuntu is trying to change as little from upstream as possibly, for the default
<Burgundavia> so rhythmbox and totem
<Burgundavia> rb is also crap
<jsgotangco> btw i heard your name on lug radio but they laughed at your surname that was rude of them
<Burgundavia> not a big deal
<Burgundavia> i was slightly offended
<jsgotangco> send 'em more email next time
<Burgundavia> hmm, nautilus cd burner needs a this much full thing, ala serpentine
<Burgundavia> they paraphrased what I had written
<jsgotangco> well radio always does that
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, do you use K or Ubuntu?
<jsgotangco> Ubuntu
<jsgotangco> i rarely use kubuntu
<Burgundavia> ok
<Burgundavia> http://s1x.homelinux.net/files/main.png
<Burgundavia> what do you think of that UI for a cd burner?
<jsgotangco> hold on
<jsgotangco> if you're thinking of using this UI for nautlis burner, this is much better
<Burgundavia> http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=303759
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, you read my mind
<jsgotangco> heh great minds think alike
<jsgotangco> *grin*
<Burgundavia> indeed
<Burgundavia> serp is in breezy already
<Burgundavia> very very nice
<Burgundavia> dragndrop stuff
<jsgotangco> its a separate app?
<Burgundavia> yep
<Burgundavia> python
<jsgotangco> main?
<Burgundavia> currently universe, but planned for main, I think
<jsgotangco> wow that's not so bad
<Burgundavia> http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/AudioCDBurning
* Burgundavia has to go, cya
<jsgotangco> ok
<jsgotangco> ill just email the stuff later and post in the wiki i hope
<Burgundavia> ok, and jump on that bug
<Burgundavia> see if we can get some movement
<mpt> Nautilus folder windows don't have Add and Remove buttons
<jsgotangco> you mean the burning function?
<mpt> I mean, ordinary folder windows don't have Add and Remove buttons, so why should a CD-R window?
<mpt> You could have just one bar showing the capacity/amount of free space, and a Burn button
<jsgotangco> true especially if you're aiming for drag and drop functionality i guess
<froud> Burgundavia: morning
<froud> jsgotangco: morn
<mpt> Good morning froud
<froud> morn
<froud> how r you
<froud> hmm people r silent today
<mvirkkil> good morning
<froud> morn
<froud> b'sides jsgotangco is anyone here working on oaything?
<mvirkkil> not me
<froud> s/oa/an/
<froud> mvirkkil: do you have time to work on things
<froud> mvirkkil: how's your docbook?
<mvirkkil> Not at the moment. @ work
<froud> mvirkkil: I mean in general, of ocurse I dont expect you to work on this at work :-)
<mvirkkil> Actually this week and next week will suck. So probably not doing anything for 2 weeks :-/
<jsgotangco> hi froud how are you?
<froud> jsgotangco: hi
<froud> mvirkkil: do you see someting in svn u would like to do?
<froud> mvirkkil: r you using ubuntu or kubuntu?
<mvirkkil> I'm using ubuntu.
<froud> OK, would you like to help us on the User Guide when you have some time
<mvirkkil> Planning to dist-upgrade to breezy once I have a bit of free time.
<froud> mvirkkil: good
<mvirkkil> froud: I'll be sure to ask you the status of that when I'm done with the project I'm working one.
<mvirkkil> :)
<froud> mvirkkil: if you like you can take a look at user guide, it has an outline
<mvirkkil> froud: In svn?
<froud> what are you working on
<froud> yes
<mpt> Structured Text 
<mpt> HTML 
<mpt> Plain Text
<mvirkkil> froud: I've got a non-computer project, and then work.
<mpt> ... where's the "MoinMoin" option?
<froud> jsgotangco: good points on help
<froud> mpt: a web-based app
<mpt> froud: what?
<froud> you writing a web-based app
<froud> or is this command line
<mpt> No, I'm trying to edit the wiki
<jsgotangco> froud, you read my email?
<froud> jsgotangco: yes
<froud> mpt: Oh ok
<mpt> froud: I've seen in the mailing list that (a) the wiki accepts MoinMoin syntax and (b) it's going to be using MoinMoin exclusively in the future
<jsgotangco> froud, what you think? i just had that idea last night after Burgundavia and jdub were talking
<mpt> but I don't see a MoinMoin option when editing
<froud> mpt: the mon system needs to be installed. Or is it already
<froud> jsgotangco: the stuff about the packaging is correct
<froud> mpt: I know the udu system was using moin
<froud> but I dont know if the main site has moin
<mpt> apparently not
<mpt> <br><span style="text-decoration: underline;"><span style="font-style: italic;"><br>
<mpt> </span></span>
<mpt> yik
<jdub> mpt: plone doesn't do moinmoin, but zwiki does
<froud> mor jdub 
<jdub> yo
<froud> Burgundavia: how's it going with porting ubuntuguide to xml in svn
<jsgotangco> hi jdub 
<froud> jsgotangco: saw your patches on kwickguide, thnaks
<froud> jsgotangco: just keep hacking dude
<froud> ignore the noise
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jsgotangco> i know what you mean
<jsgotangco> froud, a question
<froud> jsgotangco: I should find some time to take a look at it and give feedback
<froud> ? yes
<jsgotangco> what i emailed today, was enrico responsible for cleaning up packaged docs?
<froud> jsgotangco: enrico just packages, butthe real problem is yelp and scrollkeeper
<jsgotangco> yes i got it all together last night
<froud> not the most flexible
<jsgotangco> i wasn't able to attend the cc meeting because of it
<jsgotangco> i was thinking what's wrong with it
* froud want to scrap yelp for ubuntu docs, but that is a religious thing
<mpt> No Preview function either
<mpt> Boy, and I thought MoinMoin was bad :-)
<froud> all wiki stuff sucks for user documents
<froud> nice for wikipedia
<froud> not for long docs
<jsgotangco> froud, so what i emailed, is it possible or not?
<froud> jsgotangco: everyting is possible
<froud> jsgotangco: just need time
<jsgotangco> im not aiming this for breezy
<froud> and willing hands
<jsgotangco> its just not possible with only 2 hands
<jsgotangco> and learning at the same time
<froud> it is
<jsgotangco> but im not giving up on it
<froud> somebody just need to take it by the horns
<froud> but overall, yelp is weak
<froud> nice for gnome docs, but that is about it
<jsgotangco> yeah i noticed the difference between yelp and khelpcenter
<froud> however, since people cant get beyond yelp we are stuck
<jsgotangco> but khelpcenter isn't good at organizing either or probably just having the right tree structure
<froud> neither is good
<froud> linux misses a good tool for this
* froud thinks a plain html under a browser will be better
<froud> more flexible
<froud> we just need to target html
<froud> I think we spoke about this
<mdke> morning guys
<froud> mdke: morn
<froud> jsgotangco: but these issues are just noicse
<mdke> hows it going?
<froud> people need to focus on writing
<froud> mdke: slow burn
<mdke> froud, ;)
<froud> jsgotangco: which is why I say to you keep hacking kwick guide
<froud> ingnore the noise
<froud> who is gonna adopt the user guide
<froud> cummon somebody my love that 
<froud> must love
<froud> jsgotangco: I think it is time the team stopped focusing on everyting else and just focuse don SVN
<froud> UDU is over
<froud> noting great about docs there
<froud> so lets just go for the docs
<froud> stuff the rest
<froud> jsgotangco: Burgundavia : That includes trying to get people to understand the roundtripping approach we wanted with the portal
<froud> nice to have, but I dont think Canonical is playing ball on this
<froud> so stuff them
<mpt> froud: Okay, I've never used svn before. Is there a step-by-step guide for setting up and checking out the Ubuntu help?
<froud> go for the jugular and do the docs
<mdke> mpt, yeah hang on
<froud> mpt: http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocteamStepByStepRepository
<mdke> *grins*
<froud> mpt: there are plenty of hands to help you get up to speed with svn and docbook
* mdke nods
<mdke> froud, don't give up so easily on a portal, we haven't pushed that hard on it yet, maybe its not over yet
<froud> I think we need to make it clear that everyone on the team is like totally empowered to hack svn
<mdke> i agree
<froud> mdke: really, I I am tired of speaking to people at Canonical
<froud> too much religion dude
<froud> wasting time
<mdke> froud, how much dialogue did you have with them about the portal?
<froud> enough
<froud> This amongst a few proposals
<froud> lots of inpt 0 out
<froud> time wated
<mdke> froud, are you mad at them because of something else, or just the portal
<froud> wasted
<froud> nah, not mad
<mdke> clearly if they are keen enough on putting resources into a translating interface, they can be persuaded to put resources into a documentating interface :)
<froud> feel sorry for them
<froud> mdke: yep
<mdke> but i agree, for now, we can concentrate on what we have
<froud> anyway
<froud> yes, just stuff them
<mdke> *grins*
<froud> and lets go on with the plan
<froud> maybe one day the attitude will change
<froud> so for now lets just have fun
<froud> lets just do what we want in the docs
<froud> no pressure
<froud> what we have we have, what we dont we dont
<froud> we will aim for breezy to do what we can
<mdke> ok
<mdke> i need to get moving
<mdke> class calls
<froud> if it is half baked and not the best, then tuff
<mdke> damn these early mornings
<froud> mdke: cheers
<mdke> froud, keep the faith
<froud> but not in canonical, just the community
<mdke> in the docteam ;)
<froud> sure
<mdke> ok cool
<mdke> see you later
<froud> I must get dressed and start work
<mdke> afk
<froud> c ya
* mpt does the checkout thang
<mpt> How do I verify the certificate?
<mpt> These "Canonical Ltd" people sound suspicious
<Burgundavia> mpt, you still there?
<Burgundavia> froud-work, I haven't even touching anything with docs recently
<froud-work> Ok, what do you want to do?
<Burgundavia> no, more that I have had other shit going on
<Burgundavia> the stuff is still on slow burn for me
<jsgotangco> i just had a phone call sorry i was afk for a bit
<froud-work> other shit, you mean not docs stuff?
<Burgundavia> life shit
<froud-work> good shit I hope
<Burgundavia> some good, some bad
<froud-work> so life is normall then :-)
<Burgundavia> yep
<Burgundavia> you saw in the scrollback that jdub and I talked last night, both on the phone and in here
<froud-work> OK, so did you fix your key thing
<froud-work> yes
<froud-work> Burgundavia: I am not wasting more time on this
<Burgundavia> froud-work, I have given elmo my new key, so he should be getting me a new password sometime soon
<jsgotangco> i moved on
<froud-work> I still believe our thinking and rational are good
<froud-work> but I am not going to push these dudes
<froud-work> I am just gonna have fun
<jsgotangco> me too
<jsgotangco> let me figure out where to start though heh
<jsgotangco> this yelp/scrollkeeper thing intrigues me
<froud-work> and if the stuff outside gets out of control and if ittakes yonks to do the stuff in svn, I could not give a shit
<froud-work> I dont even care if the stuff in svn gets into the distro
<froud-work> I just care that I now have fun with this
<froud-work> if they want to solve problems, then they can pay me :-)
<jsgotangco> hmmm
<jsgotangco> good idea
<froud-work> Burgundavia: jsgotangco so I am here, but not going to give the same care and passion I did in the past
<froud-work> from here in I am here to have fun, no pressure, let the guys at Canonical take the pressure and worry about things
<froud-work> it does mean that my commits will be when I have time and when I feel like doing
<froud-work> if I feel like doing
<jsgotangco> froud-work, understandable you have a business after all
<froud-work> yes, but a large part of my business is FOSS
<froud-work> btw dudes, I released a new version of my web site, in a hurry, feedback is welcome
<froud-work> http://www.inwords.co.za
* jsgotangco wonders when would be the time he would have a paying career in FOSS
<froud-work> it's an apache forrest
<froud-work> Yes dudes JAVA
<froud-work> JAVA
<froud-work> JAVA
<froud-work> JAVA
<froud-work> ooooh I like saying that
<froud-work> especially here where people seem not to like it
<jsgotangco> my eyes! my eye!
<jsgotangco> froud-work, you removed your picture heh
<froud-work> No it is there
<Burgundavia> froud-work, odd bug on your site
<froud-work> http://www.inwords.co.za/management.html
<Burgundavia> the first four tabs display first, then the next 2
<froud-work> bug must be where
<jsgotangco> oh there it is
<Burgundavia> next 3
<froud-work> Huh, dont understand Burgundavia 
<froud-work> you dont see all tabs or they load is strange order
<Burgundavia> froud-work, when I click on any of the tabs, as the page loads, the first 4 tabs are rendered, then the remaining 3
<Burgundavia> might be a firefox bug
<froud-work> I dont see it in Firefax
<Burgundavia> otherwise I don't see anything
<froud-work> Hmm
<froud-work> you dont see anyting, no text
<jsgotangco> i dont see it either in firefox or ephiphany
<froud-work> ephinany works
<froud-work> I did not test 
* Burgundavia is moving his brother to Ubuntu tomorrow night
<froud-work> opera, ie, moz and firefox, konqueror
* jsgotangco looks at careers heh
<froud-work> but something i borked in konqueror
<froud-work> the fonts are so small
<froud-work> btw all the content is docbook
<jsgotangco> im not surprised
<froud-work> inkscape svg for images transformed to png
<froud-work> just love inkscape
<froud-work> now having it translated to 11 languages
<froud-work> Afrikaans, Zulu, Xhosa, Sepedi, Setswana, Sesotho, Venda, Tsonga, Ndebele, Swati 
<froud-work> 
<froud-work> 
<jsgotangco> doh
<jsgotangco> im only familiar with Afrikaans and Xhosa
<froud-work> jsgotangco: you know learnlinux
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jsgotangco> im impressed by it
<froud-work> I am going to translate it to Zulu and then give it to some guys to go teach linux in the South African townships
<froud-work> figure, that will help them get jobs
<jsgotangco> za seems to have an exciting FOSS environment
<froud-work> its good and bad
<froud-work> hopefully linux world will have a better impact
<jsgotangco> there will be a linux world there?
<jsgotangco> wow
<froud-work> yes, see icon on my web site
<froud-work> we are all excited about it, first time here in za
<jsgotangco> jeezzz i haven't been in a linux world event in my entire life
<froud-work> I think if nothing happens from it at least we will have given away a shit load of free software ?
<froud-work> :-)
<froud-work> A few distros will be there
<froud-work> sabfl will be speaking at the conference
<froud-work> and mad dog
<jsgotangco> the open source scene in asia is exciting in general, but i must be unlucky to live in a country where its ignored
<froud-work> you have to make it happen
<froud-work> it wont just happen on its own
<jsgotangco> well for sure a handful of people won't be able to make it happen
<froud-work> many of us have spent hours and lot sof money to make it happen
<jsgotangco> especially if you're talking 7,100 islands
<froud-work> I am sure it will bring results
<froud-work> He he that could be lots of user groups
<jsgotangco> yeah
<froud-work> community is th ekey
<froud-work> well to me at least
<froud-work> we have about 11 here in za
<froud-work> he he we actually managed to get the exhibition organizers to give us a stand for the LUGs of SOuth AFrica, free :-)
<froud-work> we just blugioned them into doing it
<jsgotangco> haha
<froud-work> and we quickly gathered about ZAR 3000 for fixures and stuff
<froud-work> which reminds me I must check how the stand posters are doing
<froud-work> now we are looking for people to man the stand,
<froud-work> seems there are lots of volunteers willing to stand there for an hour or two
<jsgotangco> im sure you can find people to man that with 11 lugs
<froud-work> yeah, this show is in johannesburg
<froud-work> so it will have to be from the surrounding lugs
<jsgotangco> which is better cape town or johannesburg?
<froud-work> I guess the guys in Cape Town will do the same when Linuxworld is held there later this year
<Burgundavia> hmm, paradise vs. joburg?
<froud-work> cape is beautiful, joburg has money :-) take your pick
<Burgundavia> joburg is the current murder capital of the world
<jsgotangco> i like beautiful
<jsgotangco> i dont need that much money to live decently
<froud-work> Burgundavia: we have our problems
<Burgundavia> a second cousin of mine was killed in joburg about 3 months ago
<froud-work> but we also have a historical past that is part of todays problems
<froud-work> oh no, I am sorry to hear that
<Burgundavia> she decided to argue with some carjackers, and lunged towards them
<froud-work> not a good idea in a country where the value of life is very low
<jsgotangco> hmm
<jsgotangco> i got to watch this movie that had ice cube in za
<jsgotangco> it was very bad
<Burgundavia> ouch
<froud-work> well, it has gotten a lot better
<jsgotangco> thats why when i hear of za, it still reminds me of the past
<jsgotangco> probably because i haven't been there at all
<froud-work> problem is we have mllions who need access to education and linux is a good way to do it
<jsgotangco> africa is one continent i haven't even thought of going before
<froud-work> you should come
<froud-work> it is beautiful
<jsgotangco> its totally alien to most asians
<froud-work> maybe oneday we will have an ubuntu africa conference
<Burgundavia> the launchpad people came to cape town in feb.
<froud-work> we have a huge asian community here
<jsgotangco> let me guess chinese
<jsgotangco> heh
<jsgotangco> they're everywhere
<froud-work> all types
<froud-work> they are very productive
<Burgundavia> gandhi praticed law in SA
<froud-work> and make a huge contribution
<jsgotangco> small businesses?
<froud-work> although I prefer not to categorize people by race or religion
<froud-work> some small some large
<jsgotangco> hmm i see mdke got approval in the cc meeting
<jsgotangco> i wasnt able to log in
<froud-work> but point is to get Linux into the education system here
<froud-work> cc meeting
<froud-work> that's where sabfl's TSF projects are good
<Burgundavia> approval?
<froud-work> hey I must work, later dudes
<jsgotangco> later
<jsgotangco> jdub, busy?
<Burgundavia> salut
<jsgotangco> hello
<jsgotangco> here goes the breezy upgrade
<jsgotangco> heh
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, you might want to wait
<jsgotangco> dbus?
<Burgundavia> they are about to break a whole load of shit
<Burgundavia> ya
<jsgotangco> yeah i read about it
<jsgotangco> hmm
<Burgundavia> if you haven't jumped, wait
<Burgundavia> nothing special yet
<jsgotangco> ok ill cancel this then
<Burgundavia> I'm here now, so I will ride the storm out
<Burgundavia> in other news, I am installing Hoary on my brothers machine tomorrow night
<jsgotangco> well that's good news
<Burgundavia> well, we had some fun with XP and activation
<jsgotangco> xp activation here is non-existent, even if you buy legit xp, the serial is already activated and MS can't do anything about it
<jsgotangco> even the couriers steal the keys
<Burgundavia> indeed
<Burgundavia> asia is rife with that
<Burgundavia> most of the stolen XP in NA is hobbyists
<jsgotangco> yeah it doesnt make sense you try to be legit here but yourself becomes a victim as well
<Burgundavia> indeed
<Burgundavia> that is why free software is good
<Burgundavia> none of the licence crap
<jsgotangco> ive seen schools in japan run turbo linux in classrooms for 3rd graders
<Burgundavia> cool
<Burgundavia> linux has almost no mindshare here
<Burgundavia> education or otherwise
<jsgotangco> what happened to k12 ltsp?
<Burgundavia> is very lovely
<Burgundavia> the only time linux gets adopted is when someone steps forward and pushes the project
<Burgundavia> it has not moved to the next stage, which is recommended by govs/etc.
<Burgundavia> well, there is linux in the local library
<Burgundavia> www.userful.com <-- these people
<Burgundavia> I had an interview with them
<jsgotangco> hmm
<jsgotangco> ltsp with licenses?
<jsgotangco> thats not so cool
<Burgundavia> not ltsp
<Burgundavia> multihead
<Burgundavia> massively multihead
<jsgotangco> ahh
<Burgundavia> slow, and sort of buggy
<Burgundavia> but very useful and cheap
<Burgundavia> and based on Fedora core
<jsgotangco> im out
<jsgotangco> seeyou later
<Burgundavia> cya
* Kinnison tickles Burgundavia and wonders what timezone he's in today
<Burgundavia> not my own?
<Burgundavia> is 3:23 here
<jsgotangco> yeah i noticed that
* Burgundavia will soon be able to see the malone bugs without an NDA
<mdke> hi dudes
<mdke> i've noticed a lot of french stuff is coming up in the wiki, its another one to add to the list of "untapped resources"
<mdke> a lot of it is original work rather than translations
<mdke> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/FrenchDocumentation
<jjesse> morning :)
<mdke> hi jjesse 
<mdke> froud-work, thoughts on henriks email?
<jjesse> hello mdke
<mdke> hey sm
<sm> hi all
<mdke> how are you?
<sm> great thanks
<sm> working on client projects etc.
<sm> yourself ?
<froud> mdke: ginger
<mdke> i'm very well
<mdke> froud, eh?
<froud> mdke: I dont want to break my nose on this
<mdke> froud, i don't follow?
<froud> As I said this morning, Canonical wont play ball, so neither will I
<froud> I am focused on svn, period
<froud> and determined to just have fun
<mdke> without your input it will be difficult to explore that option
<froud> if they want solutions and consulting, let them pay for it
<mdke> none of us have experience of the process of transferring wiki material into the documentation
<froud> my point exactly, they can pay me for it
<froud> mdke: understand me
<froud> mdke: I have put hours into solutions and idea
<mdke> and that is a process which still has to continue even if the svn process remains the same
<froud> mdke: my time has been for zero
<mdke> i know that
<froud> there is a place for wiki
<froud> but not as it is used today
<froud> I have a round trip solution
<froud> I suggested I asked, and I discussed
<mdke> with henrik/jane?
<froud> it was put down as not importnat
<froud> my focus is not about wiki
<froud> it was seperate from
<froud> sabfl and others
<froud> wiki is not for documentation
<froud> nice for wikipedia
<froud> not howtos and books
<froud> when this strated we wante dthe ease of editing in a wiki with the power of xml
<froud> I tested and formed a solution
<froud> but people dont see it
<froud> instead they keep trying to use a spoon to hammer a 6-inch nail
<froud> at this point I stopped caring and decided to focus on svn and ignore the noise
<mdke> my opinion is that your solution has not been given enough visibility, clearly henrik and jane have not heard about it.
<froud> Hmmm. chats, meetings, email messages, phone calls
<froud> not enough
<froud> and since when was it janes
<froud> jane just came in at the end
<mdke> they are both new
<mdke> don't forget sabfdl is the sort of person who gets a million ideas and follows up a million things and then is liable to forget them
<froud> yeah
<froud> but we have enough of the canonical team in knowledge of the idea
<froud> but jdub's take is we dont need it
<froud> this is pretty much indicative of the persepctive
<froud> so stuff it and focus on docs in svn I say
<froud> let, wiki problems grow bigger
<froud> maybe when there is enough pain they will react
<mdke> i agree on focusing on docs, but even so, we still need a process for using the material in the wiki, rather than writing all docs from scratch, right?
<froud> dont know how, but at this point they have lost my support to impliment a solution *free of charge*
<mdke> froud, copy/paste?
<froud> that is one way the other ways are in wiki under docteam
<froud> none are perfct
<froud> need some human intervention
<mdke> k
<mdke> sure
<froud> but much less that copy paste
<froud> ;-)
<mdke> so have you decided not to write on that thread?
<froud> yep I have and will continue to ignore all wiki issues
<froud> what I have read
<froud> does not address the crux of the problem
<froud> and wont because wiki is a spoon, not a hammer
<froud> my support is now limited to svn
<mdke> ok
<mdke> fair enough
<froud> at first I was just gonna focus on fringe docs and drop docteam, but I thought that was harsh
<mdke> *grins*
<mdke> there are always gonna be non-perfect solutions
<mdke> doesn't mean we shouldn't keep trying
<froud> so instead of getting caught up in all this nonsense about wiki, I just keep my nose form getting broken by staying out of it
<mdke> your call
<froud> yep, pretty much
<froud> I have not been involved with wiki since I got here
<froud> people know that I like wiki, but think it is just the wrong tool
<mdke> i tend to agree
<froud> everything has a place
* froud changes subject
<mdke> but at the same time we need to use the resources of people who contribute to it
<froud> so what are you going to write on in svn :-)
<froud> that is Canonicals call ;-) and the crux of the problem
<mdke> i'll tend towards the gnome side
<mdke> userguide is priority i presume
<froud> good which book do you want to hack
<froud> nice
<froud> I suggest you just go for it
<mdke> but i will probably be better at editing than writing from scratch
<mdke> i am no geek
<froud> no geek, but that is good
<froud> you just write and go for it
<mdke> sure
<froud> blind yourself to the noise
<mdke> *grins*
<mdke> nope
<froud> unless it has to do with what you are working on
<mdke> since i joined ubuntu my contribution has been mainly organisational and trying to enhance communication
<mdke> no reason to stop now ;)
<froud> you are key in i18n
<froud> love you for it
<froud> dont stop with that
<mdke> i won't
<froud> but all this wiki crap
<froud> my advice is to blind from it
<froud> it's a hornets nest
<froud> and a time waster
<froud>  focus on writing
<froud> we dont expect a shakespear
<froud> and the eyeballs will fix any problems
<mdke> sure
<mdke> but i'm gonna carry on doing a bit of liasing on the wiki thing
<froud> your call ;-)
<mdke> not necessary for the web portal business, but just for the zwiki->moin transition process
<mdke> hey i'm a lawyer
<mdke> can't resist the liasing
<mdke> :p
<froud> if you see something in wiki that you want to port, http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/ConvertWikiToDocbook
<mdke> will do
<froud> legal hey
<froud> I did not know that
<mdke> no?
<mdke> i'm not quite a lawyer
<mdke> still training
<froud> Ah ha
<mdke> starting work in october
<froud> well that to me is a legal bunny
<froud> I like my legal bunny
<froud> but not his bills
<mdke> *grins*
<mdke> bunny?
<froud> next time you see a rabbit look into its eye and tell me he is not a lawyer
<froud> that cute exterior
<mdke> bunnies are cute inside too surely
<froud> but analytical interior
<froud> nah a bunny is always watching you
<froud> and thinking
<mdke> *grins*
<froud> and hops from place to place in search of carrot
<froud> give a bunny a carrot and he will look for a bigger one
<froud> the bigger the carrot, the faster he hops
<mdke> sounds like you have nasty bunnies
<froud> either that or very bright
<mdke> anyway, you're right that lawyers hop faster for bigger carrots
<froud> you see, legal bunny
<froud> legal bof
<froud> lawyers and accountants
<froud> alwys twist it to what they want to say
<froud> like how much is 1+ 1
<froud> what do you want  it to be
<froud> whereas me I just see 1 and 0
<mdke> *grins*
<froud> null between
<mdke> i'm quite black and white myself
<froud> but they have their uses
<mdke> my girlfriend on the other hand
<mdke> ...
<froud> Hmmm, women, now there's a peice of work when they are lawyers or accountants
<froud> I account is a woman
<froud> love her to
<froud> drop dead grogious
<froud> gorgious
<froud> I feel sorry for the tax man
<Kinnison> froud: "gorgeous" :-)
<froud> but it is hard to concerntrate when you have a meeting with her
* froud has 10 thumbs
<froud> Hello Kinnison 
<froud> hows the chic today
* Kinnison is not feeling very chic today :-)
* Kinnison is in an old MIPS t-shirt
<froud> MIPS now there is a system I have not seen in awhile
<froud> oops giving away my age
* Kinnison grins
* Kinnison used to work for 'em
<froud> Nice systems, never had one fall over
<froud> so I have fond memory of them
<froud> feel the same about vax
<froud> and as/400
<mdke> Be RiGhT bAcK
<froud> why did those things never break, but todays systems break all the time
<froud> bring back mainframe
<froud> Kinnison: did you know that IBM installe dover 200 mainframe systems last year ?
<Kinnison> Seems plausible
<froud> and heres people thinking it was dead
<froud> well many people think the same about cobol, but it is still strong
<Kinnison> froud: unfortunately :-)
<Kinnison> COBOL really needs to die
* froud is in shock
<froud> why
<froud> J2EE compatible and .Net Compliant
<froud> Ok a bit verbose
<froud> but heck it does the trick will for business logic
<froud> XML and Web Services are not a problem
<froud> Nah, it's OK
<froud> not as nice as Java or C++, but Cobol still rocks
<Burgundavia> salut mpt
<Burgundavia> can I get a comment on something?
<mpt> good moaning Burgundavia
<Burgundavia> can you give a quick comment on this bug? http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=303759
<mpt> Burgundavia: I agree with you
<Burgundavia> ok, can you say as much on that bug?
<mpt> How would that help?
<mpt> I think the thing most likely to help now would be a patch
<Burgundavia> people often colour there judgements by who says it
<Burgundavia> ah
<Burgundavia> think I can convince an ubuntu person to do it?
* Burgundavia is not a coder
* mpt isn't either :-)
<mpt> Well, the Ubuntu plan of action is to package serpentine in main
<Burgundavia> yes, I was playing with it
<Burgundavia> very cool
<Burgundavia> that is why I thought of the UI in it
<mpt> So you'd need to convince someone who doesn't already have their plate full of BoF-driven work, perhaps
<Burgundavia> yep
<Burgundavia> probably a pretty easy thing to do
<Burgundavia> I heard that the nautilus code is quite clean
<Burgundavia> filed a bug in b.u.c
#ubuntu-doc 2005-05-20
<mpt> Burgundavia: Also, from the Bugzilla-mind-trips dept.: Don't report bugs of the form "X should be more like Y"
<Burgundavia> mpt, yes, I realised taht after I submitted it
<mpt> Instead, "Make X N", where N = {simpler, more consistent, more obvious, more efficient ...}
<Burgundavia> I take the advice of a master then
* Burgundavia wonders how many bug reports has mpt filed
<mdke> Burgundavia, still here?
<Burgundavia> yep
<Burgundavia> mdke, what do you need?
<mdke> are you following that thread started by henrik?
<Burgundavia> yes, but I haven't responded yet
<mdke> any thoughts?
<Burgundavia> I like the idea of seperate wikis
<mdke> my impression is that he is moving a little fast
<Burgundavia> i think he should do
<Burgundavia> we have lots of time to sort of the fallout
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> i thought the idea of using a wiki as a portal had been ruled out
<Burgundavia> hmm
<mdke> i agree moving fast is good, but if the fallout is gonna be massive, and keeping the various wikis in sync is gonna be a huge task, we need to make sure its gonna work
<mpt> Burgundavia: About 600, I think
<Burgundavia> mpt, geez
<mdke> thats a lot
* mpt has another go at checking out ubuntu-docs
<mdke> mpt, not working?
<jdub> mdke: the separate wiki suggestion is more technical-solution-to-social problem mucking around
<mdke> morning jdub 
<jdub> mdke: splitting wikis is worse than splitting mailing lists
<mpt> Not nearly as much as some people
<mdke> jdub, sorry i don't get what you mean
<mdke> mpt, i mean, is the checkout not working?
<Burgundavia> jdub, I like the idea of the acl for some docs
<mdke> jdub, what is "technical-solution-to-social problem mucking around"?
<mpt> mdke: Yes, it's working fine, I just didn't get it finished last night before I had to go offline
<Burgundavia> not being allow to move such important pages as RootSudo is very good
<mdke> mpt, ok cool
<jdub> Burgundavia: the wiki is a place for collaborative authoring, not "documentation"
<Burgundavia> jdub, they we need to be more proactive at moving stuff to static web pages
<mdke> jdub, you had better voice your opinion on that thread because it looks like henrik is moving quite quickly with his ideas, unless i've got the wrong end of the stick
<mdke> Burgundavia, ++
<mdke> Burgundavia, to a certain extent, moving wiki stuff to our docs can be done in the existing system tho
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> well there is to ways to do it:
<mdke> its just a question of putting in the time
<jdub> mdke: i'm writing a response to that, and a lengthier email about good stuff for the doc team to be doing
<Burgundavia> 1. keep the stuff in the wiki, and apply a no-move/delete acl to it
<Burgundavia> 2. move it out of the wiki
<Burgundavia> that is for short things we have written that we wish to keep on the web
<Burgundavia> like RootSudo
<mdke> jdub, i'll just sit back and observe, in the meantime the wiki transition can get done anyway, its a separate issue really
<mdke> Burgundavia, +
<Burgundavia> why don't we transition straight wiki to wiki, and the start talking about fancy crap like acls
<mdke> hmm
<Burgundavia> becuase the wiki --> wiki transition is going to bring bugs we are going to need to fix
<mdke> what do you mean?
<mdke> transfer of zwiki to moinmoin?
<Burgundavia> yes
<mdke> but that will happen anyway
<Burgundavia> yes, that is what I am saying
<mdke> but the issues that will occur are gonna be separate aren't they?
<Burgundavia> lets do the transitition, and then start talking about the new stuff to make our lives easier
<mdke> ya
<mdke> ok i'm gonna do the washing up and get ready for bed and look forward to jeff's mails
<Burgundavia> mdke, see the list
<mdke> will do
<mdke> good stuff
<mdke> i am still boggled by the question: canonical are funding a fantastic translation interface, why not a documentation interface
<Burgundavia> no idea
<mdke> that is a question for the long term obviously
<mdke> maybe we will get an answer during this debate tho
<Burgundavia> we already have an answer from jdub, and that is that we don't need it
<mdke> launchpad is not only about "we" tho
<Burgundavia> I still think we do, but we can postpone the decision
<Burgundavia> launchpad is python
<Burgundavia> the suggested interface was java
<mdke> you misunderstand me i think
<jdub> mdke: because translation is ready for that kind of scalability
<mdke> i'm not talking really about the current portal debate, more generally
<jdub> mdke: and is worth investing in for that scalability :)
<mdke> jdub, i see that
<Burgundavia> you are talking a doc portal in general
<mdke> my knowledge of launchpad is minimal, but isn't it the case that there are no good web interfaces for documentation? on the other hand there are lots of bug interfaces, but that hasn't stopped development of malone
<mdke> is malone "needed"?
<Burgundavia> malone is meta bug tracker
<mdke> no, but its a long term investment
<Burgundavia> and bug tracker of bug trackers
<Burgundavia> neither is rosetta "need"
<jdub> mdke: documentors are quite a different set of people to translators
<mdke> jdub, sure, ditto bug reporters
<jdub> mdke: translation has come very far, now we can scale it out significantly with a "mum can use it" interface
<mdke> *grins*
<mdke> i'd like to see my mum use rosetta, but i take your point
<Burgundavia> documentation tends to be the forgotten child
<jdub> mdke: hey, when it's released...
<Burgundavia> launchpad is very very cool
<mdke> jdub, yeah just ribbing, i use rosetta
<jdub> mdke: malone is a different kettle again; we're aiming for massive upstream/downstream/crossstream collaboration
<mdke> jdub, same with rosetta no?
<jdub> yes
<Burgundavia> a doc portal would need to take into account getting upstreams involved
<jdub> but differently
<mdke> why not documentation too?
<jdub> mdke: because it doesn't have that scale
<jdub> "everyone" needs to do translations, "everyone" can report bugs
<mdke> in terms of contribution?
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> interesting
<jdub> writing documentation (which is not the most important part of what the doc team should be doing) is very hard, and very hard to scale
<Burgundavia> that is why most current docs suck, and are out of date
<jdub> but there are ways of making it better, and involving people
<mdke> jdub, i guess that's a little bit a matter of opinion, some would say that the more people get involved, the better quality comes out
<jdub> and i've got a little faux-timeline for doing it
<jdub> mdke: i think that's pure poppycock :-)
<Burgundavia> I think the best way is to start with some sort of web stuff, and scale the technology as need
<jdub> mdke: more people == cacophony, not clarity :-)
<mdke> well its the idea behind a lot of free speech theory right?
<Burgundavia> basically to start, you need a readonly, where are the holes, interface
<mdke> anyhow
* mdke drags himself back down to earth
* Burgundavia curses that mediawiki is php
<mdke> *grins*
<Burgundavia> the best wiki engine out there, bar none
* mdke points at the forum
<mdke> there is always the "let's use php anyway" idea
<mdke> can of worms maybe
<Burgundavia> not hosted on canonical servers
<mdke> thats my point
<Burgundavia> there was talk of hosting the portal off canonical servesr
<Burgundavia> which may still be an option
<Burgundavia> I would like to explore it
<mdke> that's what i am getting at
<Burgundavia> that is how we got svn on the servers
<mdke> *grins*
<Burgundavia> it got setup and hosted offsite
<mdke> you'll never get php on in the same way
<mdke> but still
<Burgundavia> no, but I might be java on
<Burgundavia> that didn't make sense
<mdke> *laughs*
<Burgundavia> but java may be acceptable
<mdke> still it would involve a separate wiki
<mdke> bit annoying
<Burgundavia> not really
<jdub> guys, "php" is not the problem
<Burgundavia> I think that mediawiki, as an app is pretty security tested
<jdub> we've chosen moin
<mdke> sure
<mdke> for the ubuntu wiki
<mdke> jdub, we have helped a lot with the possible transition, and have never questioned the choice
<mdke> and we're not doing so now
<mdke> but we are just playing around with our ideas for a docteam portal
<jdub> docteam doesn't need a 'portal' dude
<mdke> you've said that
<Burgundavia> jdub, we realise your opinion
<mdke> but its a free channel
<Burgundavia> and I respect it
<mdke> we are just talking
<Burgundavia> I just don't completely agree with it
<jdub> that's because it looks like a bastion of direction in a directionless project :)
<Burgundavia> right
<Burgundavia> well, nobody is providing direction until now
<mdke> well i think the main attraction is of involving more people
<jdub> mdke: right, but it won't
<mdke> and removing the massive contribution barrier
<jdub> here's why
<jdub> - real documentation is hard, having a web way of writing docbook doesn't increase the quality or ability to write documentation
<jdub> - adding more people to a project with no direction makes it much harder to go anywhere or get anything done
<mdke> jdub, of course it is hard, but there are people around who have the skills and don't have the skills of writing docbook
<mdke> xml
<jdub> - writing new documentation is a red herring, and not a hugely important part of what the docteam should be doing right now
<jdub> mdke: a 'web portal' won't help them anyway
<mdke> jdub, go on
<jdub> that's the summary of my points
<mdke> i mean, why won't it
<jdub> because unless the web application is extraordinarily good, and abstracts away the whole "writing docbook" issue, they'll still be writing docbook, they'll still have to know what it is, how it works
<jdub> having a web interface doesn't magically make things less complicated
<jdub> besides, there is *no point* scaling doc team at the moment
<mdke> what does scaling mean?
<jdub> making bigger, ie., bringing on more contributors
<mdke> ah
<mdke> well you would agree that the documentation with Ubuntu is pitiful?
<jdub> no
<jdub> not at all
<jdub> underexposed? yes.
<jdub> lacking analysis and integration? yes.
<mdke> my opinion on having a look at the local docs in yelp is that it is pitiful
<mdke> considering that Ubuntu's emphasis is on being user friendly
<jdub> the solution to that is *not* writing new documentation
<mdke> ok
<mdke> well it is clear that you have a vision of what the solution is, so I will wait for your email before pestering further in here
<mdke> right i gtg to bed
<mdke> catch you all later
<Burgundavia> cya
<Burgundavia> salut liz
<Liz> kia ora Burgundavia 
<Liz> :)
<Liz> Burgundavia, did you get unable to authenticate for the new updates on hoary?
* Burgundavia is running breezy
<Liz> already?..didnt think it was stable enough for that
<Liz> im going to have to upgrade again before the next upgrade
<Burgundavia> breezy is very not stable
<Burgundavia> I just like my latest crack
<Liz> ok..gotta go shopping...bbl
<jsgotangco> hey hey
* froud finishes checking email
<froud> morning, African Greetings
<jsgotangco> grrr crappy router
<jsgotangco> hi
<froud> woof
<jsgotangco> foo
<froud> now what animal goes foo
<jsgotangco> froud, you feeling well today?
<froud> I always feel well
<jsgotangco> i just arrived after attending this useless isms seminar
<froud> except when I am sick
<froud> isms?
<jsgotangco> i dunno if you're familiar with BS 7799
<froud> BS 7799
<jsgotangco> "Information Security Management System"
<froud> Ah business continuity planning:-)
<froud> yes I am familiar
<froud> caves your head in
<jsgotangco> you think its worth it?
<froud> The concept, yes
<froud> if you dont have it you should
<froud> I say that if you are in a large organization
<jsgotangco> oh yeah if you're large indeed
<froud> security management is key to business continuity
<froud> For a small business, it's overkill
<froud> so cut down to just what you need
<jsgotangco> i dont get it nobody reacted to my email (not that its bad) i guess its too technical?
<froud> which email
<froud> Observations in packaged Ubuntu Documentation (Hoary)
<jsgotangco> the yelp/scrollkeeper thing
<froud> I explained my position to you yesterday morning
<jsgotangco> oh right
<jsgotangco> i forgot
<froud> jsgotangco: I don't know why people don't just take my idea of scrapping yelp for our docs
<froud> we dont need yelp/scrollkeeper to deliver help
<jsgotangco> its taboo for gnome! heh
<froud> to much religion dude
<froud> not enough lateral thinking
<jsgotangco> i don't mind the yelp/scrollkeeper thing but it really needs to be cleaned
<froud> amazes me how in the box people think
<froud> jsgotangco: yelp cant support a large number of requirements
<froud> glossterms would be a start
<froud> bibliography refs another
<jsgotangco> yes bibliography
<froud> XInclude/XPointer the next
<froud> customization
<froud> search
<jsgotangco> isnt xpointer very basic to be missed
<froud> not if you have xi:fallback
<froud> and if we want to use vendor drops, it will become a must
<froud> jsgotangco: but you know, I am just doing my thing
<jsgotangco> its understandable but in my opinion its not so bad
<froud> actually I was thinking, that perhaps I should not discuss these things, just go ahead and do it and then say to people here it is, like it or love it
<jsgotangco> some people believe we've done a good job
<froud> seems when we discuss stuff that people get hooked on the technical stuff and not writing
<jsgotangco> so like i said its not so bad after all
<jsgotangco> despte the tools (or the lack of it) that we have
<froud> no, not bad at all
<froud> but many of us know it can be better
<froud> but each time we discuss matters, we get bogged down
<jsgotangco> heh i remember a few months before hoary
<jsgotangco> we're all busy and stuff heh
<froud> so I figure, just do it and then show it
<froud> yeah
<froud> anyway, I just dont want to get side tracked. If others want to, that is their baby
<froud> for me I just hack the src
<froud> those that join are welcome
<froud> over time, the src will win, not wiki
<jsgotangco> yeah we seem to be more productive that way
<froud> yep
<froud> far more
<Burgundavia> http://lwn.net/Articles/135484/
<jsgotangco> luke use the src
<jsgotangco> heh
<froud> yes seen that
<froud> but people here dont want a steering committee
<froud> I suggested this route sometime back, and got bitch slapped
<Burgundavia> just thought I would mention it
<Burgundavia> sent to the list as well
<froud> no no good to know others know ofthese thing
<froud> good on you
<Burgundavia> notice, the head of the steering committe is a RH employee
<froud> yeah, that is exepect
<froud> expected
<jsgotangco> doc bounty?
<froud> I offered management and steering for a retainer, but that was ingnored like mostthings are
<froud> anyway, dont want to get depressing
<froud> Burgundavia: I starting fixing the dialup doc
<froud> still need a few more patches
<froud> and need to make it ISP neutral
<jsgotangco> froud, is the dial up doc good enough for testing for DialUpSupport BOF
<froud> Yeah, not bad at all
<jsgotangco> amu and I pulled some stuff from it but i haven't really tested yet
<jsgotangco> beause amu started a dialupresearch
<froud> Burgundavia: the TCP/IP configure part of the install guide is at first draft
<froud> jsgotangco: yeah saw that
<froud> I will publish that doc over at kubuntu.org
<froud> and the kubuntu install doc, soon
<froud> just got to do the disk partioning stuff
<froud> and maybe the install without media doc to be integrated
<froud> oh shucks, I lost the link to that
<froud> Burgundavia: do you have the link it it
<froud> jsgotangco: hows the kwicj guide going
<Burgundavia> which link?
<froud> there was a doc about installing without cd or floppy
<Burgundavia> ah
<jsgotangco> hmmm kwickguide is almost done and will just need screenshots 
<jsgotangco> but im not putting screenshots yet
<froud> OK, so you will be ready for checking collaboration soon
<froud> promise I will look at it this weekend, OK
<jsgotangco> no problem with me as long as PDA Support doesn't eat up most of my time (i dont think so)
<froud> ok
<Burgundavia> froud, http://marc.herbert.free.fr/linux/win2linstall.html
<froud> see how much more productive we are when we focus on svn
<froud> Burgundavia: thanks
<jsgotangco> bah infrastructure "claptrap"
* jsgotangco winks at Burgundavia 
<froud> Burgundavia: did you port it to xml?
<Burgundavia> about half done
* froud just loves this "Control-Escape. A gentle introduction to migrating to Linux for newcomers."
<froud> Burgundavia: want me to do a checkin
<Burgundavia> let me find it
<jsgotangco> froud, what do you use for editing docbook anyway
<froud> Oxygen XML Editor
<jsgotangco> ooohhhhhhh
<froud> I wrote the book and helped on the dev so I am biased
<froud> but i do think it is the best
<froud> of cours eit is JAVA
<froud> JAVA
<froud> JAVA
<froud> JAVA
<froud> JAVA
* jsgotangco likes to be biased as well
<froud> ;-)
<jsgotangco> my eyes! my eyes!
<jsgotangco> wiki is so evil on the sidelines people just bow to it
<froud> wiki is cool when used for the purpose it was intened
<jsgotangco> yeah but some think it can fix everything
<froud> Burgundavia: send me the xml file, I will check it in and hack some more on it
<froud> Burgundavia: what did we agree, to add it to the generic installation guide, right?
<jsgotangco> anyone know how good screem is for docbook?
<froud> screem?
<froud> url
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, bluefish works well, and is more mature
<jsgotangco> www.screem.org
<jsgotangco> i want to compare im still partial to kate
<froud> ouch there xml transformation has poor encoding
<froud> jsgotangco: you can try Morphon
<froud> it is JAVA
<froud> JAVA
<froud> JAVA
<froud> JAVA
<jsgotangco> blasphemer!
<froud> http://www.morphon.com/
<froud> http://www.morphon.com/
<froud> http://www.morphon.com/
<froud> http://www.morphon.com/
<froud> blasphemy
<froud> love it
<jsgotangco> i used to run xmlspy for rosettanet projects
<jsgotangco> its quite good
<froud> nice for data orientated docs
<froud> but that is Windows
<froud> Windows
<froud> Windows
<froud> Windows
<jsgotangco> its not so bad
<froud> no very good for data docs
<froud> not doc docs
<jsgotangco> hmm
<jsgotangco> hold on
<jsgotangco> brb
* froud goes on school run
<froud> work starts, c ya, Burgundavia send me the file
<jsgotangco> ang dami kong email
<jsgotangco> ooppss wrong chan
<jsgotangco> this is crazy my apps dont work
<jsgotangco> grr
<jsgotangco> nautilus wont run either
<jsgotangco> arggh
<jsgotangco> wtf is wrong with this
<jsgotangco> bbl
* mdke wakes up
* mdke checks email
* mdke lumbers off to have a shower
<jsgotangco> enrico!
<enrico> Hi!
<jsgotangco> long time no see man
<enrico> been quite busy
<mdke> morning guys
<enrico> I tend to be on IRC only in case of need, recently
<jsgotangco> enrico, got a minute?
<enrico> yes
<jsgotangco> its with the existing gnome docs and scrollkeeper
<jsgotangco> is it possible to clean up those
<enrico> what do you mean clean up?
<jsgotangco> http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2005-May/002230.html
<enrico> about the ordering in Yelp, that's tricky to do.  I remember jdub worked on having our documents displayed there at all, maybe he can manage to do some reordering for breezy
<enrico> Point #2 is likewise
<enrico> (sounds like a yelp bug)
<jsgotangco> it is
<jsgotangco> :(
<enrico> fixing or improving existing documentation would be very nice
<enrico> especially if such improvements can be contributed upstream as well
<jsgotangco> yeah theres too much info its kinda hardto ignore
<enrico> in the past we tried to see if there was an easy way of doing it, and we failed
<enrico> (the idea was that one should spend time mainly in fixing the docs rather than in figuring out how to checkout the thing and submit the patch upstream)
<enrico> That does not mean that there isn't a way of doing it now
<froud-work> no, any is fixable
<enrico> The problem is finding it.  The way I see of doing it is to involve Sean and some of the devels in finding out how to do this
<froud-work> just that it is a distraction
<enrico> the problem I see is this:
<froud-work> enrico: I wont get involved in any of these innitiative anymore :-)
<enrico> the developers are used at doing all sorts of hacks for playing it nicely with upstream, and they see no problem if doing so is complex
<enrico> I found it quite hard to work with them to find out an easy way for that 
<enrico> froud-work:  :-))
<enrico> froud-work: heyya!
<jsgotangco> froud-work, don't say that, this is long term not breezy goal
<froud-work> my focus is in svn
<froud-work> enrico: hi
<jsgotangco> don't make me feel discouraged :(
<froud-work> jsgotangco: not discouraging, just noting that itis a distraction
<froud-work> being a bit harsh
<enrico> I've never understood if it's simpler to learn baz or to drop the things into svn
<froud-work> but I plan to make a decision about scrapping yelp
<enrico> dropping the things into svn would be the best one, I guess (that means not changing any of the existing process)
<froud-work> yeah, I have vendor drops ready
<froud-work> but have to teach
<jsgotangco> its just a matter of upgrading svn i guess to support that
<froud-work> and yelp will break
<enrico> jsgotangco: file bugs on yelp for #1 and #2
<jsgotangco> ok
<froud-work> you cant whip a dead horse
<mdke> sure you can
<froud-work> it wont feel it
<mdke> :p
<mdke> true
<froud-work> hello mdke 
<mdke> morning :)
<enrico> froud-work: yum yum.  So, isn't it just the matter of trying dropping in just one upstream stuff and see how it works?
<enrico> mdke: hi!
<froud-work> dudes my take on all this stunted technology is drop it
<enrico> froud-work: maybe creating a StepByStep guide in the meantime
<mdke> ciao enrico
<froud-work> yes
<froud-work> enrico: big checkout though 
<jsgotangco> froud-work, i see the logic in dropping yelp with a gecko-type browser or mozembed but question is are we just going to use browsers?
<froud-work> for now, yes
<enrico> froud-work: maybe just one small piece?
<jsgotangco> i dont mind that hack
<froud-work> yelp can still read the docs
<froud-work> but as html
<froud-work> jsgotangco: you know ubuntu guide
<jsgotangco> yeah
<enrico> yelp things are still to be negotiated with mdz and jdub, I guess
<froud-work> you know it is in svn
<jsgotangco> froud-work, yeah a part of it
<froud-work> enrico: I am done negotiating with them
<enrico> froud-work: oh, sounds negative
<froud-work> jsgotangco: well help cant open it cause it does not support qanda sets
<froud-work> enrico: it is
<froud-work> long story
<enrico> ok
<froud-work> jsgotangco: but ifyou transform it to html yelp can read it
<froud-work> we can do the same with all docteam stuff
* enrico wonders what is a qanda set
<enrico> froud-work: worst case, one can do yelpable about ubuntu and release notes, and html all the rest
<jsgotangco> its a docbook thing
<froud-work> <qandaset>
<froud-work>             <qandaentry id="sect-whatis">
<froud-work>                 <question>
<enrico> AH Q and A :)
<froud-work>                     <para>What is Ubuntu?</para>
<enrico> ok :)
<froud-work>                 </question>
<froud-work>                 <answer>
<froud-work>                     <para>
<froud-work>                         <ulink url="&ubuntu-main;">Main Ubuntu site</ulink>
<froud-work>                     </para>
<froud-work>                 </answer>
<froud-work>             </qandaentry>
<froud-work>             <qandaentry id="sect-downl">
<froud-work>                 <question>
<froud-work>                     <para>Where to download Ubuntu?</para>
<froud-work>                 </question>
<froud-work>                 <answer>
<froud-work>                     <para>
<enrico> At the beginning I thought it was an australian aboriginal word
<froud-work>                         <ulink url="&ubuntu-download;">Ubuntu download link.</ulink>
<froud-work>                     </para>
<froud-work>                 </answer>
<froud-work>             </qandaentry>
<froud-work> and GDP does not intend adding support for it
<froud-work> I can understand why
<froud-work> they have no need for it
<froud-work> none of the gnome projects do
<froud-work> anyway
<froud-work> :-)
<jsgotangco> yeah
<froud-work> so I dont really want to negotiate with canonical on a community effort
<jsgotangco> the one in svn was a nasty hack
<froud-work> jsgotangco: no it is valid and well formed
<froud-work> transforme dto HTML looks good
<enrico> froud-work: how about asking some of the devels to add it to yelp?  Like, since Ubuntu needs it, Ubuntu can add that support in it
<jsgotangco> uphill battle
* froud-work feels a pain growing
* enrico hands froud-work a pain killer
<enrico> froud-work: but you're right
<froud-work> enrico: I plan to work in the walls of the docteam
* jsgotangco just noticed today that qanda set is just Q and A
<jsgotangco> heh
<froud-work> anything beyond is no go land
<enrico> froud-work: I was paid to do this sorts of negotiation, so that was fine
<mdke> *grins*
<enrico> froud-work: but if one has to do things just for fun, then eh
* Burgundavia is playing with http://www.symphonyos.com/
<enrico> froud-work: better to focus on the fun and let who needs it follow
<mdke> enrico, you're not anymore?
<froud-work> enrico: exactly, they want more they can pay me
<jsgotangco> i think doing these things for fun is of more importance rather than being paid
<jsgotangco> if you're having fun, that means you intend to do it
<jsgotangco> but then
<enrico> mdke: no, the contract expired at the end of february and I didn't sign a new one
* mdke nods
<jsgotangco> long story
<jsgotangco> *sigh*
<mdke> enrico, ah bummer
<enrico> mdke: the reason being that I have a full-time job now and I can't keep up with two
<froud-work> enrico: welcome to the plbs
* mdke nods
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, maybe they need docteams heh
<froud-work> ok dudes, look out
<mdke> ok i'm off to school
<mdke> later
<froud-work> by month end I will have bibio and glossterm databases in svn
<froud-work> next month vendor drops, if elmo upgrades
<jsgotangco> biblio ang gloss are good
<froud-work> month after that xml to html build with desktop and arch profiles
<enrico> "Symphony is a [...]  linux distro based on Knoppix"
<enrico> booh.  sounds like a dead end :(
<froud-work> the generic install guide is already enroute to this
<enrico> froud-work: awesome!!
<froud-work> instead of debating this, I am just going to break protocol and do it
<jsgotangco> its a good risk
<froud-work> if people who are not commiting scream I will pretend to be deaf
<froud-work> however, if commiters have problems I will be all ears
<jsgotangco> youre pumped up lately
<froud-work> no just doing what I know will work and tired of listening to crap from people who have no clue what they are saying :-)
<froud-work> and who do not write and commit
<enrico> froud-work: doesn't sound like a bad approach
<jsgotangco> hah
<jsgotangco> i dont mind doing this my way or the highway thing, we've done good weeks before hoary and it works for us
<froud-work> so by focusing on the contents of svn I will screan out all outer noise
<enrico> what are the docteam plans for Breezy?
<froud-work> any of these
<froud-work> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocteamProjects
<jsgotangco> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocteamProjects
<froud-work> jsgotangco: on kwick guide
<froud-work> me on install
<froud-work> and some others
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, seen this? http://www.symphonyos.com/desktop.html
<froud-work> mdke: the legal dude on User Guide
<froud-work> Burgundavia: on faq
<froud-work> I think
<froud-work> :-)
<jsgotangco> heh
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, yeah i don't like the UI
<jsgotangco> corner applets are terrible
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, interesting ideas
<froud-work> well first he need to get hs key back
<Burgundavia> I like the fact that windows cannot go outside the screen
<jsgotangco> well that's one thing
<enrico> is jiyuu0 back to business with his UbuntuGuide?
<froud-work> yes, but it is still closed source :-(
<jsgotangco> froud-work, seen Andrew Zajac's post?
<froud-work> and he did not work in svn
<froud-work> which one
<jsgotangco> ubuntuforums
<froud-work> yeah
<enrico> [symphony]  corner applets?  Cool!  Finally someone noticed what part of the screen is easier to click!
<jsgotangco> As it is, the docs in SVN are not
<jsgotangco> offering the kind of documentation that many users need.
<jsgotangco> The documentation that is currently there is either not indexed
<jsgotangco> adequately, or is too broad in scope and does not offer precise
<jsgotangco> answers to common questions.
<froud-work> I broke out of the talk
<jsgotangco> just scream: ITS YELP
<jsgotangco> heh
<froud-work> no he has a bigger picture
<enrico> wow, that's a lot of projects
<froud-work> something Burgundavia and I discussed long ago
<froud-work> plenty of work
<jsgotangco> the portal
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jsgotangco> ive read of that
<jsgotangco> bah
<froud-work> enrico: so we all need to focus in svn, not portals and wikis and crap like yelp
<froud-work> work small commit often
<froud-work> and we will have ample time
<jsgotangco> we're stuck with that crap for now but we'll live
<enrico> and [mainly]  have fun!
<froud-work> yeah, loads of fun
<froud-work> ooh oh ho ha ra ra, yehaw
<froud-work> Burgundavia: where is that file
<froud-work> are you gonna send it?
<Burgundavia> somewhere in my files, I have no idea where
<froud-work> Oh dude shall I do it from scratch?
<jsgotangco> oh he's become the doc team whip master
<froud-work> who me
<Burgundavia> froud-work, si tu veux
* froud-work has visions of leather and chains
<froud-work> en please
* Burgundavia runs away
<froud-work> So dudes, I need ideas to a problem
<froud-work> I have a docbook XML glossary database over at computerdictionary.tsf.org
<jsgotangco> why do i feel deja vu on this chat right now
<froud-work> how the hell to process glossterms without forking that code base
<froud-work> the glossterms in our docs
<froud-work> http://computerdictionary.tsf.org.za/
<froud-work> need a method to dynamically parse the above and add glossary entries to the docs at time of transformation
<froud-work> any ideas
<jsgotangco> i dont get it
<froud-work> ok the above has over 21297 glossterms
<froud-work> that's a lot of code
<jsgotangco> im sure of that
<froud-work> so how to process our docs and dynamically generate the glossary section
<froud-work> without having to checkout the above
<froud-work> or store it in our svn
<froud-work> the glossary mech will only add glossterms that are used by the doc
<froud-work> so lets say
<enrico> froud-work: XSLT to generate a wordlist needing a glossary on docteam stuff, then XSLT on computerdictionary.t.o.z to extract a subset?
<froud-work> you markup 50 terms
<froud-work> the glossary section will only have 50 words
<froud-work> enrico: the docbook stylesheets to this
<froud-work> but it has to happen between two remote systems
<froud-work> making processing slow
<jsgotangco> i see the point but i think the bottleneck will happen when parsing those glossterms
<jsgotangco> remotely
<jsgotangco> ack
<froud-work> that is the problem
<froud-work> my current solution
<jsgotangco> problem too is that we don't need all those glossterms
<froud-work> I have a wc or the glossdatabase
<froud-work> but we never know when we do
<froud-work> is it reasonabl eto expect people to checkout a wc of the above
<jsgotangco> if you have a wc you can upload it but it will have a huge impact on bandwidth during transmission/download
<froud-work> to a specific location
<froud-work> common to all of us
<enrico> froud-work: package the glossary and use it as a build-depend?
<froud-work> enrico: not much use as a package when building html
<enrico> froud-work: I didn't get you: what do you mean?
<froud-work> the glossary section is automatically generated at the end of the document
<jsgotangco> froud-work, its not that much of an issue anyway except for the file size i guess so you can just commit it
<enrico> froud-work: my point was: package the glossary like we do with our docs, so that the docbook sources of it are installed somewhere.  Then our build system can just point at the locally installed version, like we do with the docbook stylesheets
<jsgotangco> at least it was committed this early
<froud-work> enrico: not clear, let me explain
<froud-work> at end of our doc we put
<froud-work> <glossary role="auto">
<froud-work>         <glossentry>
<froud-work>             <glossterm>Dummy</glossterm>
<froud-work>             <glossdef>
<froud-work>                 <para>Now you see me, next you won't.</para>
<froud-work>             </glossdef>
<froud-work>         </glossentry>
<froud-work>     </glossary>
<froud-work> then we process passing
<froud-work> <xsl:param name="glossterm.auto.link" select="1"/>
<froud-work>     <xsl:param name="firstterm.only.link" select="1"/>
<froud-work>     <xsl:param name="glossary.collection">../../../common/glossary.xml</xsl:param>
<froud-work>     <xsl:param name="glossentry.show.acronym" select="'primary'"/>
<froud-work> in doc we mark terms as <glossterm>fooo</glossterm>
<froud-work> on transformation the XSL goes and collects glossentry for each glossterm
<froud-work> dynamic
<froud-work> but not in yelp
<jsgotangco> it will break in yelp methinks
<froud-work> so we transform XML > HTML and the above happens
<jsgotangco> but transformed to html no problems
<enrico> yes, right, I get this
<enrico> And it's all very very cool!
<froud-work> OK I must go to meetings, think it over.
<enrico> the problem is that the glossary entries are remote, so it takes a lot to compile?
<enrico> my proposal is to package the glossary entries so that they can be installed locally
<k31th> Hello 
<jsgotangco> upload it on svn then?
<froud-work> enrico: yes, and we dontneed to package the xml, just html
<enrico> froud-work: but we'd need to package the glossary's XML
<froud-work> I was thinking that we ask people to do checkout to vendor
<enrico> froud-work: and as a side effect, everyone that wants to do that trick can reuse the same package
<jsgotangco> hello k31th 
<k31th> is there a place on the ubuntu site where there is a document request ? 
<k31th> jsgotangco: watsup
<jsgotangco> k31th, there is none but we have breezy targets
<k31th> kk
<jsgotangco> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocteamProjects
<froud-work> enrico: that makes the payload very big
<enrico> froud-work: the glossary's XML files, once packaged, would be found in /usr/share/glossary/stuff
<k31th> so what do you need making 
<enrico> froud-work: no, because it's a build-depend, not a dependency of the package itself
<froud-work> enrico: ah I see
<jsgotangco> hmmm
<enrico> froud-work: you need that to BUILD, but then the relevant parts are copied in your package and you don't need the full glossary anymore
<froud-work> like installing the dtd or xsl
<enrico> froud-work: right
<k31th> brb
<froud-work> Hmm. can you do a deb packaging for this, please
* froud-work goes to his knees
<enrico> froud-work: sure.  point me at a tarball with upstream sources
<jsgotangco> yeah that can really help
<froud-work> enrico: no tarball as yet, but checkout svn://computerdictionary.tsf.org.za/terms/trunk/dict
<froud-work> I will send you a commit acount
<froud-work> give me a minute
<enrico> froud-work: ok
<enrico> froud-work: in change for the packaging, you'll write a short text file explaining how to use the glossary in other DocBook projects, and we'll put it in /usr/share/doc
<jsgotangco> jjeeezz this site is huge
<enrico> froud-work: do you mind if I upload it in Debian instead of Ubuntu?  That'll make it more generally useful as well
<enrico> And it'll get into Ubuntu on its feet, then
<froud-work> sent
<froud-work> ok I must go to meeting. Thanks dudes
<k31th> am i right in thinking this is the doc team ?
<jsgotangco> this is the doc team
<jsgotangco> heh
<jsgotangco> you think this is the devel channel?
<k31th> lol no...
<jsgotangco> anyway welcome how can we help you
<k31th> so for example.. if i want to help with the admin guide
<k31th> do i just go ahead and write sections ?
<jsgotangco> hmmm would you like some adventure in doing docs?
<jsgotangco> you can check out svn if you want
<k31th> k ?
<k31th> svn ?
<jsgotangco> all our docs are in svn
<jsgotangco> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocteamStepByStepRepository
<jsgotangco> we do all our work in DocBook
<jsgotangco> you don't need to know this for now
<k31th> k
<k31th> so
<jsgotangco> becausewith the docbook format, we can transform the document into any format we may need like html, etc.
<k31th> wat do you want me to do basically :p
<k31th> wat guides etc need writing
<jsgotangco> hmm take your pick and let's see if someone is doing stuff on it
<jsgotangco> you're empowered to hack away docs
<jsgotangco> froud-away, your dial-up howto is not well formed
<k31th> jsgotangco: ok what about Secure shell in the security section
<k31th> http://people.ubuntu.com/~mako/docteam/adminguide/ch05s05.html
<k31th> i presume you want it writen in manual layout on how to secure ssh servers and clients ?
<k31th> with an a section explaining it ?
<jsgotangco> hmm let me check the docs
<k31th> kk
<jsgotangco> hmm svn is empty as well i guess sean has some stuff to include but you're free to write stuff about it and commit. We're all going to review them before freeze anyway
<k31th> kk
<k31th> so if i just write a guide on howto  secure ssh 
<k31th> then show you it, thats kool ?
<jsgotangco> yeah we'll commit it
<k31th> nice
<k31th> no doubt ull ripp it apart as this is going to be my first doc :D
<jsgotangco> but committing them doesn't mean it goes in ok but its up for review
<jsgotangco> there's always a first time :)
<jsgotangco> just take small steps and when you think you're ready, go check out svn
<jsgotangco> we're not rushing, we're all learning
<k31th> kool
<jsgotangco> (we're going to rush before freeze though)
<k31th> is that the next release ?
<jsgotangco> yeah are you familiar with ubuntu release dates?
<k31th> no i think its every 6  months am i right ?
<jsgotangco> that is correct
<jsgotangco> that means we're releasing breezy in october
<k31th> kool
<jsgotangco> hence the 5.10 mark
<jsgotangco> (200)5.10(October)
<k31th> ahh i get it ...
<jsgotangco> 5.04
<jsgotangco> get it?
<k31th> up i  gets it 
<k31th> does much change between release ?? 
<Burgundavia> yes
<jsgotangco> of course
<k31th> i see
<Burgundavia> as much as they possibly can
<k31th> i mean doc wise
<jsgotangco> we'll have mono by default
<jsgotangco> k31th, definitely
<k31th> kool
<jsgotangco> some stuff gets retained, most change
<Burgundavia> yes, becuase new programs are added, and old ones changed
<jsgotangco> gnomebaker i hate you
<Burgundavia> serpentine is very cool
<jsgotangco> bah after they finish breaking stuff
<jsgotangco> i had to manually fschk my drive a few hours ago
<jsgotangco> things just dont work
<jsgotangco> hmm
<jsgotangco> lost some files too
<jiyuu0> jsgotangco, u mean gnomebaker broke ur filesystem?
<jsgotangco> no no
<jsgotangco> i was doing my planner thing on emacs in a seminar this morning
<jsgotangco> then i had my laptop  sleep
<jsgotangco> when i turned it on again, things went hairy
<jsgotangco> until things wont run anymore syaing my fs is read only
<jsgotangco> im backing up some files atm
<jsgotangco> just in case
<jiyuu0> that's weird
<jsgotangco> it is
<jsgotangco> first time i experienced it
<jiyuu0> one weird thing i encounter is... suddenly sudoer files got lock for no reason
<jiyuu0> so can't sudo anymore
<jiyuu0> and no root passwd
<k31th> jsgotangco: i presume in the security section of ssh you dont want me to tell them how to install sshd ?
<jsgotangco> k31th, nobody's stopping you just write what you want
<jsgotangco> we'll go to specifics later
<jsgotangco> its a guide after all
<k31th> kk
<jsgotangco> ok im out
<jsgotangco> later
<jsgotangco> k31th, you can just email your stuff on the ubuntu-doc list
<mdke> supsup
<mdke> mako, around?
<mdke> jdub, did you get round to writing those emails you spoke of?
<jdub> not today
<mdke> :(
<mdke> mmmmmmm i tell y'all what is fun
<mdke> converting a page to moin which has been written in html with what looks like microsoft word
* mdke finishes doing that
<mdke> ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
<froud-away> enrico
<froud> enrico you there
<enrico> froud: for very much short
<froud> di dyou understand my message
<froud> so long as the computer dictionary can be packaged from the svn://computerdictionary.tsf.org.za/terms/trunk/dict/ folder
<froud> it will not be used for disply
<froud> just as a build
<froud> dependancy
<enrico> ok, so the images are not used for the dictionary itself
<froud> not required when it is used as a database
<froud> in root of trunk you have website too
<froud> we dont need tha
<froud> t
<froud> I still have to insert 21297 unique id values to the files before can use them
<froud> but if we get the packaging ready it will be good
<froud> k31th: see you want to hack admin guide, welcome
<k31th> hey
<k31th> wassup froud 
<froud> k31th: hi
<froud> k31th: I see you are going to write some things on admin guide
<k31th> froud: yeah thats the ideal 
<k31th> going to make a start in a min
<froud> k31th: what is in the admin guide files now is just an outline, so feel free to write any section, add or delete as you see fit
<froud> nobody else is hacking it at the moment
<k31th> ok brilliant 
<k31th> ahhh excellant 
<froud> have you seen the SuSE Admin Guide
<k31th> no
<froud> What About RH
<froud> or Fedora
<k31th> i was going to look at some other documentation first
<froud> when I wrote the outline I had someting like the SuSE Admin Guide in mind
<k31th> iv seen gentoo docs
<k31th> and debian
<froud> it should bee a book
<froud> not an online help
<froud> OK great, well feel free to go for it
<froud> r u ok with svn and docbook
<froud> you know how to create patches etc?
<k31th> ahh svn no 
<froud> Ok you running Ubuntu I hope
<k31th> na windows ME
<k31th> of corse i am :p
<k31th> Hoary 
<froud> OK do you have subversion installed
<k31th> i run debian gentoo ubuntu
<k31th> im just doing it now 2 secs
* mkde nods to channel
<froud> Ok once you have svn installed just do
<froud> svn checkout https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/trunk ubuntu-docs
<froud> that will create a folder named ubuntu-docs in your pwd
<mkde> froud what do you use for editing xml?
<k31th> ok its doig it
<k31th> doing
<froud> mkde: frist I must say I like the new nick
<mkde> heh
<froud> kde rocks
<froud> mkde: I use Oxygen XML Editor
<mkde> froud, i've used this nick for a while when I come on with my laptop, it was your idea, remember?
<froud> mkde:  is is not free
<mkde> oh right
<froud> yeah
<mkde> is it your program?
<froud> just noticed
<froud> mkde: not mine
<froud> I just wrote the manual a long time ago
<mkde> ah
<k31th> froud: ok its done that
<froud> k31th: I trust you have docbook dtd and xsl installed
<mkde> froud, anything else you would recommend? i'm on emacs right now
<froud> mkde: do you mind java
<k31th> froud: err no
<mkde> i don't have it installed i don't think
<k31th> have docbook
<mkde> nothing against it licence-wise
<froud> k31th:  ok you should have the tool chain installed
<froud> k31th: http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocteamWork
<k31th> kk
<froud> k31th: what editor do you use for editing
<froud> mkde: you can use eclipse
<froud> mkde: any xml aware editor will do
<froud> even kate
<mkde> will emacs do?
<froud> mkde: of course
<froud> psgmls mode installed?
<mkde> i'm pretty unfamiliar with emacs tho, but I installed some kind of xml plugin for it, no idea if its activated
<froud> you will know
<mkde> how?
<froud> but emacs is cool
<froud> mkde: syntax highlights will come on when you load an xml with xml mode on
<mkde> ok i have that
<mkde> and there is an xml menu too
<froud> yep
<mkde> its ugly as hell but I'm sure it will work fine ;)
<froud> you can also use VI
<froud> or VIM
<froud> Gedit will do good too
<mkde> oh right
<froud> k31th: you should read http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocteamStepByStepRepository
<k31th> froud: this is the first time iv been on a doc team
<froud> everything is more or less explained there about working with svn
<k31th> i use nano to edit txt normally ?
<froud> Hmm is nano xml aware?
<mkde> gedit looks pretty good
<mkde> k31th, try gedit
<k31th> froud: ill read it
<froud> k31th: if you want cli checkout VI http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocbookVim
<k31th> chain etc arnt in the repository 
<froud> otherwise default to gedit
<k31th> iv not like vim and vi in past
<mkde> me neither
<k31th> i like nano 
<froud> sorry what is iv
<mkde> froud, userguide seems to overlap heavily with other guides
<k31th> i can use that ?
<mkde> froud, s/iv/vi
<mkde> froud, s/iv/i've
<mkde> doh
<froud> k31th: I dont think nano is xml aware
<froud> k31th: but it can edit xml
<k31th> ahh
<froud> xml is just a text file
<k31th> ok
<k31th> yeah i know
<mkde> k31th, you can use nano but the relevant sections won't be as clear. For gedit see http://mdke.mine.nu/gedit.png
<k31th> ill try gedit ?
<froud> mkde: yes ther eis overlap, it is intended
<mkde> froud, so I should try and sync it with aboutubuntu and installguide?
<mkde> or not?
<froud> mkde: no write a book
<k31th> mkde: yes i have it on screen loaded up
<froud> mkde: user and admin guides are not short things
<k31th> now i just need to get cracking 
<mkde> froud, what do you mean write a book
<froud> k31th: you know docbook?
<froud> mkde: think of the user manual as a book, not online help
<k31th> froud: nope i need to get reading
<froud> k31th: kk
<froud> mkde: ever seen a user manual for SuSE?
<froud> or Fedora
<froud> mkde: tink like this
<k31th> nope 
<k31th> should i check them out ?
<froud> k31th: huh?
<k31th> suse manual
<mkde> froud, what is the difference between a book and online help
<froud> k31th: I was speaking to mkde , but yes if you can find a copy of the user/admin manuals fo rother distros they will giv eyou a good idea
<froud> Online help is short
<froud> book explains longer
<froud> mkde: go into your local book shop and se eif you can find a book on Linux, that wil lgive you the idea
<mkde> froud, sure, but users will use our documentation to find solutions to individual problems too will they not?
<froud> Something like Linux (Fifth Edition)
<froud> There is FAQ Guide for quick stuff
<mkde> hmm
<mkde> yes i see that
<froud> But that does not give newbies enough background information
<mkde> so what you're saying is that the userguide should be more like a book, whereas the faq guide should be more like online documentation?
<froud> In User Manual you will have to give intro, background etc
<mkde> mm
<froud> Yes
<mkde> ok i see
<froud> Think like you will go to a book shop and buy a book on Linux for beginners
<froud> k31th: mkde : the same goes for the admin guide
<froud> but this is just a little more technical
<mkde> but still surely there should be an element of synching between the aboutubuntu->userguide documents and the installguide->userguide documents
<froud> admin guide should assume the person has read user guide or has some experience with linux
<froud> There is
<froud> but for now, just hack the src and I will get to that part later
<mkde> couple more questions, hope you don't mind
<froud> shoot
<mkde> the indenting thing
<mkde> its really awkward
<mkde> see that screenshot i posted above?
<froud> you will find it useful
<mkde> when you add things to paragraphs, is it necessary to redo the indenting?
<mkde> delete all the whitespace, then add more in a different place?
<froud> mkde: dont worry about keeping the indent perfect
<mkde> naturally I understand the indenting of <tags>, i'm just talking about the indenting of text
<froud> so long as you have a start and close tag
<k31th> froud:  so aim is for beginners even tho its a admin manual ?
<froud> dont worry about that, just let it wrap
<froud> k31th: yes, many users are new and yet they need to do admin tasks
<k31th> froud: yeah tru.dat
<mkde> froud, so in this example, its ok that one of the lines doesn't indent? http://mdke.mine.nu/gedit.png (new screenshot)
<froud> mkde: fine
<mkde> ok cool
<mkde> thanks
<froud> you just hack the src and make sure it is well-formed
<froud> I will take care of the pretty indents for you
<mkde> you have it automated?
<froud> ;-)
<mkde> cool
<mkde> i've forgotten the last question i had
<froud> see tidy
<froud> mkde: k31th : I assume you both know how to make patches
<mkde> i can upload right?
<k31th> froud: theres a man or admin kde and admin gnome right ?
<froud> mkde: do you have a commit account
<mkde> yes
<froud> ok so you can do commits
<mkde> oh yeah, my last question was, why didn't the userguide ship already? its not in bad shape
<k31th> froud: patches for?? froud dont presume im new to docs 
<mkde> k31th, on that page that froud posted it describes how to submit patches for your changes
<froud> k31th: when you have a peice finished you create a patch
<k31th> yeah imreading down that
<froud> send it to me or the list and we will check it and apply it
<k31th> tell you wat ill just read that and get on and ask here if im stuck ?
<mkde> k31th, basically when you make changes, you make a patch and send it to the list, and we can apply the patch for you to update the doc
<k31th> sounds great
<mkde> k31th, we're always here ;)
<froud> mkde: k31th : tip from me, work small, patch often
<k31th> brilliant so am i
<k31th> at work or home lol
<k31th> wat a geek !
<mkde> froud, presumably a commit every 5 minutes isn't appreciated tho... o.o
<froud> mkde: k31th : aim to do a section and then commit it
<froud> do logical blocks
* mkde nods
<mkde> oh yeah, my last question was, why didn't the userguide ship already? its not in bad shape <-- froud
<froud> not ready to ship
<mkde> shame
<froud> mkde: k31th : suggest you subscribe to th ecommit list
<froud> see http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/ForTheHasty
<froud> This will show you when people commit to svn
<froud> makes life easier
<mkde> how come?
<froud> mkde: when a commit happens in svn a copy of the patch is sent to the commit list, so you can see who did what
<froud> without having to check and search for stuff
<froud> are you subscribed?
<mkde> not right now
<froud> if not subscribe now and I will make a commit to show what I mean
<mkde> don't worry
<mkde> i see the point :)
<mkde> i'll subscribe
<froud> OK
<froud> ;-)
<mkde> are the messages subject header tagged?
<froud> yes
<k31th> done
<mkde> excellent
<froud> we dont mail to that list though only get
<k31th> now... im going to read that ppage :D
<froud> mkde: you may find it useful to use a gui front end to svn
<k31th> froud: such as?
<froud> sudo apt-get install esvn
<mkde> froud, i quite like cli svn tbh
<k31th> froud when i get round to writing this guide not learning howto write the guide :p do you want me to use cmd line or gui for the admin tasks ?
<k31th> froud: im a cmd line person myself... 
<mkde> imo it depends on whether the guide is specific to gnome/kde or intends to be independent of the two
<froud> k31th: some things can only be done on cli other on both
<froud> default to cli
<froud> and if there is a gui route, use that as additional method
<froud> mkde: there is a gnome user guide and a kde user guide
<mkde> i meant the admin guide
<froud> mkde: same
<mkde> but now you're on the subject, how would i link to the kde userguide from the gnome one?
<froud> I foresee some convergence of the two in the future
<froud> Dont do it for now
<froud> Soon we will have this capability
<mkde> i think there is a fairly strong argument for not having separate ones but dealing with the specifics of each in one document
<froud> using olinks
<froud> mkde: agreed
<froud> there will be
<mkde> i'm just reading the section of the gnome userguide which talks about kde
<froud> Yes, there will be content reuse
<froud> and links between
<mkde> hmm
<k31th> oh i get it i dopwnload it to a dir in my home dir then edit the .xml with say gedit then send the patch when done ?
<froud> eventually I forsse that we will have one file profiled
<froud> k31th: :-)
<k31th> brilliant 
<froud> ;-) just just a pretty face
<mkde> froud, is the userguide is an introductory book, i think ubuntu users should be told everything about kde too so that they can choose, and vice versa :)
<k31th> i was thinking it was more comlicated than that
<mkde> s/is/if
<k31th> nice i can get started then
<froud> mkde: up to you, what would you want to see and learn
<froud> remember writing is an open ended process
<froud> k31th: nah, easy stuff
<froud> mkde: I leave it up to your good judgement
<mkde> ok thanks
<mkde> i'll need to learn about kubuntu first
<froud> mkde: well you dont have to
<froud> Just add comments
<froud> <!-- Talk about Kubuntu here-->
<k31th> froud: where is the online version i find it easyer to view
<mkde> froud, yeah but i'd like to :)
<froud> k31th: no online
<froud> mkde: do you have lots of disk space?
<mkde> froud, no, but enough for it
<k31th> oh its not online i see
<k31th> ok
<froud> you can use qemu
<k31th> that pwns 
<mkde> froud, yes i was thinking about using qemu for breezy purposes
<froud> k31th: transform it to html for viewing
<froud> mkde: ;-)
<mkde> is the kde userguide fairly advanced?
<froud> k31th: you can also do yelp
<froud> mkde: no
<froud> kwick guide is doing well though
<mkde> froud, *nods*
<froud> mkde: you should take a look at the generic install guide
<froud> this will give you an idea on how to do profiling
<froud> you wont need it for gnome user guide
<froud> but it is good to know
<mkde> right
<froud> oneday we will have a single file for kde and gnome
<froud> profiled
<mkde> that will be cool
<froud> and for each platform
<froud> but for now the whole profilingt thing is a bit much for people to digest
<froud> same with outside links
<froud> (between docs)
<froud> so it is kept simple
<froud> I plan to introduce glossary and biblio soon
<froud> once people understand those mechanisms then I will push olinks
<froud> and then profiles
<froud> all of the above is not supported by yelp
<froud> so the transform will be to html
<froud> at which time we will add CSS
<froud>  and some bling, with search and index features
<froud> I know it is hard for people to visualize right now
<mkde> cool
<froud> but by not making yelp or khelpcenter our targets for viewing we open the whole power of docbook
<mkde> sounds exciting
<froud> in about three months from now people should begin to see the whole picture
<froud> the more text, the better the picture will be :-)
<froud> well I am off to bed, been a long day
<froud> k31th: you ok now
<mkde> night froud-away 
<k31th> froud-away: i should be fine
<froud-away> Ok
<mkde> who is henry-meyerding?
<k31th> when iv ate my tea ill make a start
<froud> author who contributed dialup doc
<mkde> oh yeah
<froud> ok by
<mkde> bye :)
<k31th> dammit i have to go see some one tonihgt, whens the deadline for thiese docs ? i presume its asap
<mkde> you have about 5 months
<k31th> oh nice 
<mkde> :)
<k31th> so one night wont matter 
<mkde> the work is kind of continuous
<mkde> k31th, no not at all
<k31th> thats great
<k31th> well i will start it tonight 
<k31th> probly around 11
<k31th> i can do quite a bit from work tbh
<k31th> they dont mind me using irc e-mails etc just so long the work is done 
<mkde> awesome
<k31th> yeah it is really 
<k31th> good money to
<mkde> magic
<mkde> what do you do?
<k31th> IT Technician / consultant 
<mkde> cool
<k31th> im only 20 mind so pay isunt ubba
<k31th> you in US ?
<mkde> uk
<k31th> ah right kool same here
<mkde> london
<k31th> im on just under 16 k
<k31th> so 15500 
<mkde> pretty cool
<mkde> where do you live?
<k31th> which was better than before
<k31th> onviously that would be fuck all for a london job
<mkde> yeah its expensive here
<k31th> but i live in melksham small town between bath and swindon 
<mkde> gotcha
<k31th> yeah we some contracts in london 
<k31th> i have to go there some time
<k31th> on that shitty tube
<mkde> which one?
<k31th> which tube
<k31th> umm
<mkde> the underground ya mean?
<k31th> i get on at hanslow west and go to blac fiers ?
<k31th> yeah
<k31th> i hate it 
<mkde> yeah that sucks
<mkde> me too
<mkde> its the only thing i really dislike about london
<k31th> the first time i got on there i thought this is cool wat do people moan abut then we got passed the bankment and central london and it was full of stinking people breathing in my face 
<mkde> heh
<k31th> im there clinging onto mylaptop 
<mkde> in rush hour its appalling
<k31th> yeah terrible
<k31th> i sit  (normally have to stand ina  fucking door way) i dont want to touch that bar its covered in skanky germs and mank lol
<k31th> but it is the fastest way to get around im told
* mkde nods
<mkde> yeah its the only way i can get around
<k31th> only good thing is
<k31th> playing with bluetooth
<k31th> and trying to spot fitt looking girls
<mkde> heh
<mkde> there are lots in london
<mkde> due to the fact that there are lots of foreigners ;)
<k31th> ha ha
<k31th> yeah
<k31th> LOADS
<k31th> compared to round here
<k31th> most of the london contracts i have setup vpns and VNC or RDP so i can do it remotly 
<mkde> i can do without london tbh
<k31th> mkde: wat you do for work
<k31th> yeah it would fuck me off 
<k31th> i could probly deal with the outskirts
<mkde> i am at law school at the moment
<mkde> start work in october
<k31th> you have the  advantage of faster internet in london tho
<mkde> heh
<k31th> ah right kool
<mkde> i'm on 250kbps pipex
<k31th> im only on 2mbps here 
<mkde> only...
<k31th> download ?
<mkde> poor sod lol
<mkde> yes 250/128
<k31th> how much you pay 
<mkde> 15 quid or so
<k31th> not bad
<k31th> i pay 25 quid
<k31th> on nildram
<mkde> pipex are pretty nice
<mkde> i like em
<k31th> 50gig cap a month but unlimited offpeak
<mkde> not the best price, but there is no cable here
<k31th> im pretty sure pipex and nildram are same routing
<k31th> do a traceroute to jolt.co.uk if its 3 or 4 hops its the same
<k31th> currently im logged into a box in the telhouse london :p
<k31th> its where i run my irc to 
<mkde> where is that?
<k31th> Irssi uptime: 66d 9h 32m 23s
<k31th> mkde: do you know where docklands is
<mkde> i live there
<k31th> its there lol
<mkde> telhouse rings a bell...
<k31th> iv been to ISPs in docklands as well
<mkde> 7 hops to jolt.co.uk from here
<k31th> Frontier net & anoutherone some where else
<k31th> Mistral
<k31th> mkde: different routing then
<mkde> not sure
<k31th> right ill be back in an hour or so
<mkde> ok have fun
<mkde> welcome to the team
<k31th> going down the pub
<k31th> thanks :D
<mkde> switching out on this box
#ubuntu-doc 2005-05-21
<k31th> fuck im over drawn
<k31th> that sux
* k31th paypal donations welcome
<k31th> froud-away: if your there or anyone else knows how do i convert it to html ?
<k31th> im guessing its with that shell script ?
<Burgundavia> convert what?
<k31th> xml file
<mdke> k31th, you can view em with "yelp filename"
<mdke> also there is an html script
<k31th> i ran that script
<k31th> nice yelp works for me
<mdke> :)
<mdke> ok bed time
<mdke> night y'all
<k31th> night
<k31th> im going to do a full install and document it all i think a server install that is
<Burgundavia> salut jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> salut
<jsgotangco> how fare the natives?
<Burgundavia> not bad
* Burgundavia has to point that he is an immigrant
<jsgotangco> ah heh
<jsgotangco> you're not a native canadian?
<jsgotangco> i gotta start pulling people for PDA support
<Burgundavia> just found my tungsten E
<jsgotangco> ahhh goodie
<jsgotangco> im going to make a wiki page first ala laptop testing if there is nothing atm
<Burgundavia> there is
<Burgundavia> on the old wiki
<Burgundavia> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/LaptopTestingHardware
<Burgundavia> needs to be gardened though
<jsgotangco> that's mjg59's
<jsgotangco> im searching through the wiki
<jsgotangco> ther are some palm howtos
<jsgotangco> LaptopTestingHardware is quite new; mjg59 requested for some contribs
<mpt> How is that an "old wiki"?
* jsgotangco shrugs
<jdub> mpt: that was the first wiki we used
<jdub> mpt: before we made the stunning error of migrating to zwiki
<mpt> so where's the new wiki?
<jdub> www.ubuntu.com/wiki/
<jdub> and arguably udu.wiki.ubuntu.com
<jdub> which may or may not be where we migrate to
<jdub> when we switch back to moin
<mpt> wiki.ubuntu.com and www.ubuntu.com/wiki/ both redirect me to the same page
<mpt> So I don't see the difference
<mpt> I hope we're not intending to use Moin for docs that are going to be ported to anything else
<jdub> the wiki is irrelevant to documentation production
* mpt has just been fighting Moin markup bugs this afternoon
<mpt> ok then
<jsgotangco> hello jdub, mpt 
<mpt> hi
<jdub> morning jerome
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, you there?
<jsgotangco> hey froud 
<froud> hey
<jsgotangco> wow
* jsgotangco is reading the list
<froud> k31th: mdke : how did it go while I was asleep
* froud looks around for patches
<jsgotangco> i havent committed anything yet, quite busy putting up PDA Support
<jsgotangco> but dont worry :)
<froud> mdke: nice commits last night, thanks dude
<froud> Hmm have not seen Jeff in a few days
<froud> Burgundavia: did you find that file?
<froud> jsgotangco: the dialup doc is not well-formed? I tested and it is ... do you still have that problem with it?
<jsgotangco> ill check now
<jsgotangco> its ok now after the update
<jsgotangco> hmmm..connecting to centurytel?
<froud> yes, it need to be made generic
<mdke> froud, fine thanks
<froud> the doc was contributed in OOo, I converted it to docbook, now we need to generalize it
<froud> cool
<mdke> hi jsgotangco 
<mdke> hi mpt jdub 
<jsgotangco> mdke, hey
* mdke reads scrollback
<jsgotangco> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/PDATesting - WIP
<mdke> mpt, by "old wiki", Burgundavia meant the current wiki
<mpt> ahhhhhhh
<mpt> cf. http://wiki.wordpress.org/ and http://codex.wordpress.org/
<mdke> those moin bugs are bugs in the wiki engine, and will not be present after we migrate
<mdke> [06:10:57]  jdub the wiki is irrelevant to documentation production
<froud> ;-) dont take it too literally
<mdke> its just contrary to our current practice, that's all
<mpt> My favorite feature of MoinMoin is how when logging in, you enter your login name, enter your password, hit Enter, and get an "invalid e-mail address" error
<mdke> mpt, haven't seen that one
<mpt> because it uses the same form for (a) logging in, (b) registering, and (c) e-mailing you your password
<froud> dont use wiki much so can't related :-)
<mpt> and the first button in the form is the one for e-mailing you your password
<froud> from #ubuntu-devel [08:14]  <fabbione> JaneW: it's just a mess to edit from the web
<mdke> saw that
<jsgotangco> heh
<mdke> mpt, i see, is that on the udu wiki?
<jsgotangco> its because of the colors of breezy goals
<mpt> Yeah, UDU wiki and Launchpad wiki
<mdke> mpt, ok sounds fun
* mpt doesn't think he's leaking anything too sensitive by saying the Launchpad wiki uses MoinMoin
<mdke> *laughs*
* froud heard there is a virus going around called wiki-fever
<jsgotangco> i still like svn love
<mdke> froud, its simply that the wiki material will be useful for compiling the docs, especially faq guide imo
<mpt> "wikiwikiwiki" sounds almost as bad as "yyyyyyyyakkaboo!"
<mdke> froud, plus of course the task of gardening it seems to have been given to the docteam
<froud> Sure, now if you can just port the lot to docbook it will be good ;-)
<mdke> nooooo
<mdke> ;)
<froud> Hmmm, can't blame you
<mdke> froud, its just that some parts can be useful to lift out of the wiki and put into the relevant places in the documents
<mdke> if they are reliable
<froud> I thought Jeff has some stylesheets for xml db to moin, or did I read him wrong?
<mdke> i don't know
<mdke> he hasn't posted a single mail to the list
<froud> lift and shift wiki to docbook
<froud> maybe it was jjesse
<mdke> that fedora doc looks pretty cool at first glance
* mdke changes subject
<froud> It is
<mdke> maybe that guy who found it can write to them and ask if they have it in xml
<froud> Burgundavia: how's that ubuntuguide to faqguide port com'n along?
<mdke> Burgundavia, great survey email btw
<froud> yeah I think we should open a howto folder in generic
<mdke> i don't like the label howto
<froud> not going there^ mdke 
<mdke> to me they are all documentation, and it blows to distinguish between different forms rather than content, because users can't find things if you do that
<mdke> ok
<mdke> but that survey will be useful for the faq guide
<froud> yes, it is good
<mdke> ooh
<froud> mpt: you got time on your hands, how about you port ubuntuguide to faqguide, please
<mdke> froud, i noticed that the directory name for the userguide is different to the name of the xml file: there is an extra "s" in the middle
<mdke> can you sort that?
<mpt> froud: Time on my hands? You must be joking
<mdke> or will it break links
<mdke> mpt, i think he is
<froud> no serious
<mpt> froud: I started working on the local help last night but fell asleep
<froud> local help?
<mpt> the stuff you get when you choose System > Help
<mdke> which file?
<mpt> the front page
<froud> not important at this stange
<froud> IMHO
<mdke> how do you change that?
<mpt> because I'd much rather work on that than on something people won't read
<mdke> froud, ++ seem to remember that it was sorted at the end of the cycle before hoary
<froud> you dont know what they will and wont read
<mpt> ok, let me rephrase that
<froud> Well, like it or not I am not aiming to publish ubuntu-docs in yelp
<mpt> I'd much rather fix something that's positively embarrassing right now, than work on something which is already adequate :-)
<mdke> mpt, long time before the next release :)
<froud> Dutch Academics Declare Research Free-for-All
<mdke> lots of things might change
<mpt> not really, only five months, and there's a *lot* of work to do
<froud> mpt: it would be better to focus in the docs
<jsgotangco> ahem why do i get the feeling that im not fitting in lately after UDU
* mdke hugs jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> im serious
<mdke> i don't know what you are on about
<froud> in about 2 months from now our docs will not open in yelp
<mpt> froud: If help isn't "docs", I don't know what you mean by "docs"
<froud> mpt: yelp is borked
<mpt> Yes, I know that
<mpt> Patches welcome
<froud> mpt: I am moving to browser with greater functionality
<froud> search, index and interlinking  between ubuntu docs and glossary database and biblio
<froud> better customization and branding, some bling, bling
<froud> Docs in yelp will be for GNOME apps only
<mdke> jsgotangco, oy
<froud> and if somebody wants they can use yelp to read the HTML we will package
<froud> jsgotangco: stop crying dude you are part ofthe furniture here :-)
<mdke> bummer about mary
<mdke> she was a great asset
<froud> yep
<mdke> :(
<froud> but as I said before, people come and people go
<mdke> not saying they don't
<froud> that is why we need to focus on sustainable systems
<froud> to much dependance on one person is not good in this environment
<froud> that includes myself
<mdke> just saying, bummer
<froud> sure ;-)
<mpt> hmm
<froud> hmmm?
<mpt> Where *is* the help front page, anyway?
<mpt> It doesn't seem to be in ubuntu-docs
<jdub> mpt: it's generated
<jsgotangco> sometimes being a user is much easier than being involved
<jdub> mpt: part of yelp
<mpt> oh
<froud> dynamic created via scrollkeeper and yelp
<jdub> mpt: we can 'massage' this
<froud> depending on the categories define
<jsgotangco> i dont think we can move stuff from scrollkeeper/yelp to focus on ubuntu docs
<jdub> mpt: if you can come up with a design for the ideal front page, i'll make sure it happens
<mpt> jdub: Ok, well first thing I'd like to do is massage it to get rid of the beautiful, but very large and not-very-useful, lifesaver illustration
* froud smiles
<jdub> mpt: obviously it should be an even more enormous ubuntu logo.
<mpt> yess!
<mpt> then we can rename "System" > "Help" to "System" > "Get Up Close And Personal With The Ubuntu Logo"
<jdub> mpt: maybe our users need intimacy help.
<mpt> Heck, they're using Linux
<mpt> oh wait
* mpt remembers the marital status of the person he's talking to
<jsgotangco> im getting some fresh air and think
<mpt> jdub: jdub: http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/LocalHelp#head-e3caaf3346cddbf1f6f5272eeb1c84d951685a54-2
<mpt> That's what I'd like the front page to look like
<jdub> that's pretty long for the front page
<mpt> Yeah, I'm trying hard to keep it to 12 items
<mpt> maybe I'll narrow it further
<jdub> the "if you're new" bit could be a box on the side or something though
<mpt> maybe
<froud> And how do you plan to make it go to the side?
<mpt> though IMO a help viewer shouldn't be large enough, by default, to have anything on the side
<froud> yelp xsls have no support for it
<k31th> morning
<jdub> mpt: we can be pretty artful about page composition though
<mpt> HTML 1.0 would be a good language to write help in
* froud smiles
<froud> now you're talking
* jsg-away gets the feeling we're doing this all over again
<froud> mpt: this is part of the reason why I am targeting HTML
<mpt> froud: No, really, it isn't
<froud> Yelp reads HTML well enough
<froud> isnt what?
<mpt> froud: You're talking about making stuff readable in a Web browser
<mpt> I don't care about help in a Web browser, a Web browser has far too much chrome
<froud> and yelp reads HTML
<mpt> I'm talking just about the amount of presentation artfulness HTML 1.0 allowed.
<mpt> Not HTML 4 or 3.2 or 2.
<froud> well, let me see, if the ubuntu docs are readable in help and the index page is html, then we will not have a problem with that requirement :-)
<froud> but I cant see why to use 1.0 when 4.0 is supported
<froud> seems like going backward ;-)
<froud> anyway, your call
<froud> must do work, c ya all
<mpt> froud: HTML 2.0 and 3.2 and 4.0 were invented to let Web designers do cooler things.
<mpt> Coolness is not the point of help.
<jdub> mpt: that said, interest, interactivity and context are pretty useful
<froud> mpt: I am not going to get into another debate on this, we have already gone in square circles on such issues. I suggest you just do it and commit it to svn
<k31th> speak in an hour guys
<mpt> froud: That's what I'm trying to do, but first I need to work out how to massage the front page :-)
<froud> to me what is importnat now is the doc contents
<mpt> brb
<froud> k31th: kk
<mdke> mpt, it tends to get worked on when we are sorting out the packaging towards the end of the cycle afaics
<mdke> but a wiki page is a good idea for working on it in the meantime
<jdub> mdke: this requires up front design/goals work
<mdke> jdub, what does?
<jsgotangco> i dunno if you're read the logs or read some lists but i've said before that the yelp front page needs to be fixed in order and that's the problem ubuntu docs arent even visible and even i18n docs arent accessible when help is selected instaed you get the english page
<jdub> mdke: yelp front page and related requirements
<mdke> jdub, well feel free to work on it
<mdke> jsgotangco, yeah i saw your emails, hopefully enrico will work on it a bit?
<jsgotangco> enrico said its tricky
<mdke> basically the whole svn structure is borked?
<mdke> i guess its come together in a piecemeal way
<jsgotangco> if i remember right enrico said jdub tried it before
<mdke> jsgotangco, did you see my PM?
<jsgotangco> oh sorry about that
<jdub> the svn structure was defined without knowledge of what needed to be done on disk
<jdub> and how to integrate with the distro
<jdub> so that just needs to be fixed up a bit
<jdub> not a huge issue
<jsgotangco> im getting more confused
<jsgotangco> i should be working instead of getting confused on this
<mdke> that would be cool if it can get fixed
<mdke> got to run now
<mdke> back saturday evening
<froud> jdub: what's wrong with svn structure?
<jeffsch> hey froud. how to do vendor drop?
<jsgotangco> its outside trunk
<froud> jeffsch: hi, a copy of upstream docs in svn, we have not used it yet
<froud> jsgotangco: what is jdub saying about svn structure? can somebody explain?
<jeffsch> there are no upstream in svn, right?
<jsgotangco> froud, i dont understand it either
<froud> not yet, your idea is spot on though
<jsgotangco> way over my head this infrastructure talk
<froud> wanted to do this long ago, but technical reason prohibit
* jsgotangco is better off as an ordinary user
<jeffsch> if it gets done, will our mods go upstream?
<mpt> My second-favorite feature in Moin: "The lock of MatthewPaulThomas timed out 0 minute(s) ago, and you were granted the lock for this page."
* jeffsch thinks docteam is better of with jsgotangco as super user
<jsgotangco> eh?
* mpt get(s) back to his work(s)
<jsgotangco> jeffsch, i need to fix my priorities atm, personal, ubuntu, work (if i have one)
<jsgotangco> most likely, im going to move somewhere in NA
<froud> jeffsch: yes we can push upstream
<jeffsch> jsgotangco: cool
<froud> jsgotangco: personal, work, ubuntu is that order should be fine
<froud> jeffsch: it's more complicated than this of course
<jeffsch> froud: is it mandatory to push upstream, or optional? If we are ubuntufying docs, they won't be good for upstream
<froud> optional
<froud> we only want to puch up what is generic
<jeffsch> good
<froud> no point having ubuntu stuff in KDE or GNOME
<froud> for the most part it is about content reuse
<jeffsch> so what stops us from grabbing an xml doc from gnome cvs and making it our own?
<froud> not branding or ubuntufying
<jsgotangco> we can push to upstream generic/common
<jsgotangco> that question escapes me as well
<froud> jeffsch: no point, we lose the upstream pwoer
<froud> power
<jeffsch> but if the doc is not good for upstream when we are done with it, so what?
<froud> we want  to do svn up in vendor and get all the upstream changes
<jsgotangco> froud, would it be possible to remove all existing upstream docs and just let scrollkeeper monitor our stuff
<jeffsch> but the upstream changes will screw up our changes. If upstream changes, say, a screen shot, it will screw up our doc
<jeffsch> i guess I'm talking fork, huh?
<froud> As I said it is more complex than this
<froud> cant explain it now, perhaps ove rthe weekend
* jsgotangco vowed never to go online on weekends
<froud> but take a look at the svn-book look at vendor drops
<jeffsch> ok
<froud> must go to meetings
<jsgotangco> froud, point existing docs to vendor drop then if its supported?
<jeffsch> must go to bed
<froud> if somebody can tell me the problem with svn structure, it would be good
<froud> bye
<Burgundavia> hey, just got back
<Burgundavia> froud-away, no I haven't found the file, and no I haven't done anything with the ubuntuguide, beyond some more looks at it
<k31th> Morning
<jsgotangco> hey
<k31th> jsgotangco: watsup
<k31th> now the question is do i be fat and get chips again
<jsgotangco> thats nice dont forget the dip
<jsgotangco> hmm
<jsgotangco> brb
<k31th> yeah
<Kinnison> Hihi peeps
<Burgundavia> salut Kinnison, my darling
<jsgotangco> does AvantGo have a competitor?
<Burgundavia> what is avantgo?
<jsgotangco> ackk
<jsgotangco> you have a tungsten and dont know avantgo?
* Burgundavia barely uses his palm
<Kinnison> What about her five sisters?
* Kinnison grins, ducks and runs
<jsgotangco> heh
<jsgotangco> nice one
<jsgotangco> anyway avantgo, you pull info online sync to your laptop
* Burgundavia spanks Kinnison, and enjoys it
* Kinnison sighs
<Kinnison> people always beat me up :_(
<Kinnison> doesn't avantgo also do format conversion & stuff?
<jsgotangco> yeah pretty much
<Burgundavia> "What makes Gnome less fun for me is the fact that Gnome is a stable high-quality codebase that I'm spending all my time maintaining"
<Burgundavia> that is a funny quote
<jsgotangco> ive been looking at universe and saw some conduits for avantgo
* Burgundavia is not pleased at the mono shakeup, as muine doesn't work right now
<jsgotangco> get used to it, you dived in :P
<Burgundavia> yep
* Kinnison will hold off on breezy until july or so I think
* jsgotangco too
<Burgundavia> currently waiting on upgrading my hal until all that is sorted
* Burgundavia has itchy feet
* Kinnison offers burgey a nailboard to scratch his feet on
<Burgundavia> sick taht it took this long --> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4518599.stm
<Burgundavia> and on the other side, way too soon --> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4543501.stm
<jsgotangco> the answer to your question is 42
<jsgotangco> beatification too arly
<Burgundavia> right, need to go see that movie
<jsgotangco> he's barely dead for 40 days methinks
* Burgundavia thinks that JP2 did as much harm as good
<Kinnison> To be fair, the current pope would probably be dead before the beatification was complete if he waited the normal five years
<Burgundavia> yes
<jsgotangco> he's not that frail
<Burgundavia> just wait until the papal poisoners get to him
<Burgundavia> this thread makes me wince --> http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=28232
<Burgundavia> we need better communication between the devs and the great unwashed about that sort of stuff
<jsgotangco> hmm
<jsgotangco> strange
<jsgotangco> they can do that stuff in hoary
<Burgundavia> most of what they are suggesting has already been thought of or is being done
<jsgotangco> yeah
<Burgundavia> it just needs to be communicated better
<jsgotangco> "A GUI Installer is a must"
<Burgundavia> not really
<Burgundavia> a better install partitioner is better bet
<jsgotangco> just quoted the thread he
<Burgundavia> yes, I read that
<Burgundavia> someone needs to distill it for the -devel list
<Burgundavia> I think I might right now
<Burgundavia> actually, 2 emails I think
<Burgundavia> one about communication
<Burgundavia> and one about breezy stuff
<jsgotangco> bye bye
<Burgundavia> cvya
<mpt> My third-favorite feature in Moin: How it logs you out in the middle of an edit, and going Back doesn't work.
* Kinnison ha never had moin log him out
<Kinnison> are you doing something strange?
<mpt> Kinnison: No, I'm just editing for several hours at a stretch
<Kinnison> mpt: and moin logged you out?!
<Kinnison> mpt: I've had zwiki log me out while editing, but never moin
<mpt> yep, "You are not allowed to edit this page"
<Kinnison> boggle!
<mpt> and because it's over HTTPs, the previous page isn't cached, so going Back doesn't work
<mpt> HTTPS, rather
<Kinnison> aye. I never edit in the browser
* Kinnison hugs mozex
<mpt> heh
<jdub> Kinnison: dude, i installed mozex and can't get to any prefs to set the editor - seems like it really wants mozilla
<Kinnison> jdub: the prefs window is all b0rked
<Kinnison> jdub: in prefs.js, I have:
<Kinnison> user_pref("mozex.command.textarea", "/usr/bin/emacs %t");
<jdub> ahar!
<jdub> thanks :)
<Kinnison> I took apart the jar and worked it out that way :-)
<jdub> heh
<jdub> hrm
<jdub> it doesn't believe me
<Kinnison> didja nuke XUL.mfasl?
<jdub> i did not!
* jdub has renewed hope
<jdub> boh
<jdub> no love
<Kinnison> feh :-(
* Kinnison isn't sure what to suggest
<Kinnison> it works for me, but I've had the same .mozilla for aaaaages
<froud> anyone know how to get a word count from POT files?
#ubuntu-doc 2005-05-22
<Burgundavia> salut mpt
<mpt> hello Burgundavia
<Burgundavia> how goes life on saturday?
<mpt> well, I have a couple of wounds from rusty nails
<Burgundavia> ouch
<mpt> but other than that, I'm fine :-)
<mpt> Are you in Saturday yet?
<Burgundavia> well, emailed usablity with that nautilus-cd stuff
<Burgundavia> not yet
<Burgundavia> is Friday 22:08
<mpt> You're spending a Friday night on IRC?
<Burgundavia> yep
<Burgundavia> victoria has a very boring nightlife
<Burgundavia> now I am figuring out why gnome-network doesn't appear to be built for hoary
<mpt> I spent Friday night on IRC *and* drawing Web page mockups
<Burgundavia> lol
<Burgundavia> are you single?
<mpt> No, and I was supposed to call my girlfriend to wake her up at 10pm, but I forgot
<Burgundavia> oops
<Burgundavia> single, but I still spend a lot of time with my ex
<mpt> Fortunately she had prepared for my forgetfulness by setting her alarm clock and arranging for someone else to call her at that time too
<Burgundavia> mpt, have you had any thoughts regarding the repository dialog in synaptic
<mpt> none at all
* mpt looks
<Burgundavia> damn
<Burgundavia> I haven't had a eureka moment with it yet
<mpt> You have 1 broken package on your system!
<mpt> Use the "Broken" filter to locate it.
* mpt hunts for this "Broken" filter
<Burgundavia> under "custom"
<Burgundavia> that was the other thought I had
<Burgundavia> merge status and custom
<Burgundavia> and remember old searchs
<mpt> those buttons are just wrong
<mpt> ok, I've found the broken package, now what do I do
<Burgundavia> what is it?
<mpt> bazaar-dbg
<Burgundavia> no idea
<Burgundavia> probably needs a dependency that it didn't find, our you installed it with dpkg
<mpt> Because I was on bazaar COTM, and I downgraded to bazaar 1.3.2, but didn't downgrade bazaar-dbg at the same time
<Burgundavia> ah
<mpt> ah, upgrading it requires upgrading bazaar too
<mpt> well, now that I have 1.25 GB RAM...
<mpt> ok, let's look at this repositories dialog
<Burgundavia> here is a UI thought, drop the search button and merge status and custom
<mpt> "Building repository dialog / Please wait." is just Wrong
<Burgundavia> you got your mac back yet?
<mpt> no, it's supposed to be arriving in a day or two
<mpt> "synaptic" as the window title is also wrong
<Burgundavia> filed a bug already, been fixed
<mpt> "You can add and remove authentication keys in this dialog."
<mpt> Quit telling me about dialogs
* Burgundavia would love to see mpt's face when he looks at the dialog
<mpt> That's like going to a person and saying "Can you help me?", and they don't say "Yes, I can help you", they say "Yes, I'm a human who can help you"
<Burgundavia> the window needs a title, no?
<mpt> yes
<Burgundavia> here is my redesign bug https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=10453
<mpt> and if the "Add" button has text rather than just being a "+", it should end in "..."
<Burgundavia> not really fleshed out yet
<Burgundavia> what does restore default keys do? is there a way to do that without having to bother the user?
<mpt> What did you mean by "adding a custom dialog"?
<Burgundavia> sorry, custom repo
<mpt> ah
<Burgundavia> that wasn't my most inspired piece of writing
<Burgundavia> in fact, it is total crap
<Burgundavia> I think I will rewrite
<Burgundavia> but I need a consistent vision
<mpt> I just had the (untitled) Repository Settings dialog open, but now I switched away from it and switched back, it's gone, and nothing works in any of the other windows
<mpt> gtk-bug! :-)
<mpt> W: GPG error: http://gb.archive.ubuntu.com hoary Release: The following signatures were invalid: BADSIG 40976EAF437D05B5 Ubuntu Archive Automatic Signing Key <ftpmaster@ubuntu.com>
<Burgundavia> that happens sometimes
<Burgundavia> time errors cause it
<mpt> The first thing I noticed about Synaptic was that it had two Search buttons
<mpt> and that the second seemed to do anything
<Burgundavia> generally, everytime I think about synaptic and how to fix it, I run away crying
<mpt> didn't seem to do anything, I mean
<Burgundavia> hmm, yes
<Burgundavia> should be dropped for the typeahead style, ala web browser entry bars
<mpt> yeah
<mpt> Who's the programmer here?
<mpt> the programmer for synaptic, I mean
<Burgundavia> however, I think they want to pour resources into a new package installer, rather than fix synaptic
<Burgundavia> no idea
<mpt> Who's they?
<Burgundavia> distro team
<Burgundavia> canonical in general
<Burgundavia> tie the new software installer into launchpad
<mpt> Is this under http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDownUnder/BOFs somewhere?
<mpt> It's not in http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/LaunchpadIntegration
<mpt> ah, http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/PackageManagementRoadmap
<Burgundavia> yep, thats it
<Burgundavia> not currently a breezy goal
<Burgundavia> so I guess I had better start filing bugs on syn
<mpt> I don't like the idea of package management in general, but I guess it's essential on a system where you can't rely on anything in particular being installed
<mpt> so maybe have two tabs, "Installed Packages" and "Available Packages"
<Burgundavia> and a simple search dialog
<mpt> nah, a search field at the top of each tab
<mpt> like you said earlier
<Burgundavia> should I file a bug about a complete synaptic redesign?
<Burgundavia> think that is worth it?
<mpt> Have you ever in your life seen a bug report like that get used and marked fixed?
<Burgundavia> nope
<mpt> I don't think that's the sort of thing bug reports are good for
<Burgundavia> yah
<Burgundavia> that is the other thing that stopped me
<Burgundavia> I don't no who the synaptic upstream is
<Burgundavia> hmm, used to be connectiva
<mpt> http://www.nongnu.org/synaptic/contribute.html
<Burgundavia> mvo is the debian maintainer
<mpt> one of the maintainers is Michael Vogt, who's also the Ubuntu Bugzilla assignee
<Burgundavia> ya
<Burgundavia> mvo = Michael Vogt
<mpt> Put it down as a BoF for the next conference :-)
<Burgundavia> I think I will put together something for -devel and see where it goes
<mpt> Then I can wiki a design spec for it
<Burgundavia> there are bits and pieces of a design spec
<mpt> where?
<Burgundavia> we talked about it in # -devel a few months back
<Burgundavia> and there are bits with gnome-app-install
<mpt> gnome-app-install?
<mpt> Hmm, I seem to have that installed somewhere
<Burgundavia> the applications-->system tools-->add/remove programs
<Burgundavia> that half formed mess
<mpt> oh, man, why is that a separate app
<mpt> why why why
<Burgundavia> that is the attempt to make a new app installer
<mpt> haha
<Burgundavia> dying on the alter of no-time
<mpt> I just spent a few minutes choosing a pile of stuff to install, clicked "Apply", and ... "You must run this program as the root user"
<Burgundavia> oops
<Burgundavia> it should do that by default
<Burgundavia> oh, you ran from the commandline
<mpt> yes
<mpt> Not that that should have made a difference
<Burgundavia> there was talk of a RequiresRoot in the .desktop file, so that programs that require root just take it
<mpt> It should have asked me for my password either way
<Burgundavia> hmm, there are a lot of things that we want to hide from the average user that are very useful for the power user, like dependencies
<mpt> However. I shall concentrate on my BreezyGoals.
<Burgundavia> what are yours?
<Burgundavia> I will think out a new design, and play with it
<mpt> Launchpad 1.0, and fix the Ubuntu Help
<Burgundavia> you being paid for number 2?
<mpt> and design the new hardware data collection tool
<mpt> no
<Burgundavia> oh
<mpt> Maybe I should have said "Breezy goals" rather than "BreezyGoals" :-)
<Burgundavia> ah
<Burgundavia> ok
<mpt> Hmmm, it might be good to set a target of bugs to report before Breezy too
<Burgundavia> lol
<jsgotangco> ewwwww
<Burgundavia> I also filed this --> https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=10454
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, huh?
<jsgotangco> i found my old P166 Sony Vaio PC
<jsgotangco> and just booted it up
<Burgundavia> does it run windows?
<jsgotangco> aye win98
<jsgotangco> heh
<jsgotangco> it still woks though
<jsgotangco> keyboarrd is pretty bad though
<jsgotangco> this can be fixed 
<Burgundavia> mpt, what was that about the add and remove buttons
<Burgundavia> mpt,  "Authentication keys allow the verification of the software you download"
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, you can comment as well
<jsgotangco> verfication of what
<jsgotangco> authenticity?
<Burgundavia> good point
<Burgundavia> I am filing bugs surrounding synaptic
<Burgundavia> open the repo dialog in synaptic and look at authentication
<Burgundavia> "Authentication keys allow are used to check software integrity"
<Burgundavia> "Authentication keys are used to check software integrity"
* Burgundavia is going to be away, but don't hesitate to respond, I can read the scrollback
<jeffsch> jsgotangco: you still thinkin of moving to NA?
<Burgundavia> mpt, I think I just realised why the repo add dialog was bugging me so much. There is a visual disconnect between the add dialog and the show repo dialog
<mpt> hey now
<mpt> Burgundavia: Why is the "Ubuntu 5.04 Security Updates" repository turned off by default?!?
<Burgundavia> mpt, I don't think it is. The repo add thing doesn't reflect what repos are actually there
<mpt> Burgundavia: And I challenge you to find a single window in Synaptic that has a correct title (i.e. a title that (a) exists, (b) accurately describes the purpose of the window, and (c) doesn't end in punctuation)
<Burgundavia> mpt, hmm, I don't think I am going to take that bet
<mpt> No, I just added the Security Updates repository, and now I have three rather than two
<Burgundavia> the whole add dialog thing is very fragile
<mpt> Yes, switch to another window, then switch back to it, it disappears
<Burgundavia> I was speaking more on the editing your sources.list
<mpt> "The repository information has changes. A backup copy of your sources.list is stored in /etc/apt/sources.list.save. You need to reload the package list from the servers for your changes to take effect. Do you want to do this now?" ( No, I Was Just Adding the Repository For Fun ) ( Yes )
<Burgundavia> probably it should just reload?
<mpt> yes
<Burgundavia> ok, will file a bug about that
<Burgundavia> poor mvo
<mpt> Rather than filing a bug that the alert is incorrectly titled "Information" :-)
<mpt> So gaim, gzip, Firefox, and OpenOffice, amongst others, were insecure on my system because the Security Updates repository was off by default.
<Burgundavia> done
<Burgundavia> gah
<mpt> gah?
<Burgundavia> wrong window
<Burgundavia> check out the "set internal option" option
<Burgundavia> and add cdrom is not with the add repos dialog
<Burgundavia> bugzilla is horrible at sorting bugs
<mpt> It's going to be another 24 minutes and 6 seconds before I can explore Synaptic further
<mpt> That's another bug ... It's almost certainly not going to be 24 minutes and 6 seconds, it should just say "about 24 minutes"
<Burgundavia> oh, you upgrading?
<mpt> that whole window needs redesigning, really
<mpt> Yeah, I'm installing the security updates
<Burgundavia> the whole gui needs a redesign
<Burgundavia> that is what is so scary, and can really be best done at a bof
<mpt> It'd take longer than a BoF
<Burgundavia> how about a hackfest week?
<Burgundavia> and some good user studies?
<mpt> When I was at UDU I had no time to finish any design specs, it was scary
<Burgundavia> I gather UDU was crazy
<mpt> Well, I haven't been to any other distro meetings, so I've got nothing to compare it to
<Burgundavia> nor have I
<Burgundavia> well, Mataro wasn't that crazy
<Burgundavia> morning of bofs, afternoon of hack
<Burgundavia> here is another one, the right-click and package menu are subtly different
* Burgundavia muses about gossip. If only it did what gaim does
<mpt> in what way?
<Burgundavia> gossip only does jabber, no aim/yahoo/icq
<Burgundavia> but gossip is very very cool
<Burgundavia> higgy and simple
<mpt> ah
<Burgundavia> and the icons rock
<mpt> I'll install it in 12 minutes and 54 seconds and see
<mpt> Things that look like checkboxes should check when you click them
<mpt> they shouldn't open a menu
<Burgundavia> where?
<mpt> in the package list
<Burgundavia> oh, yes
<mpt> if you want to offer some choices, fine, but dont' make it look like a checkbox
<mpt> make it look like a menu
<mpt> the Microsoft Office installer gets that right.
<Burgundavia> and then have a bunch of stuff greyed out
<mpt> http://www.winsupersite.com/images/reviews/inst08.gif
<Burgundavia> yes, but the dialog is mostly evil elsewhere
* Burgundavia has been a windows help desk monkey
<mpt> what dialog?
<mpt> I'm *just* talking about the checkboxes
<Burgundavia> the installer
<Burgundavia> what would you call the green square?
<Burgundavia> status icon?
<mpt> I wouldn't
<Burgundavia> oh
<Burgundavia> what would you call it?
<mpt> I'd change it to a menu, as used in the MS Office installer
<mpt> except make it an option menu, rather than a pull-down menu
<Burgundavia> did you just read my bug report?
<mpt> what bug report?
<Burgundavia> https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=10761
<Burgundavia> been filing like mad while we talk
<mpt> well, that depends on how useful the other options are
<mpt> I can't remember, and I can't see them a.t.m.
<Burgundavia> the other options are complete remove and reinstall
<Burgundavia> for an installed package
<Burgundavia> forgot about upgrade
<Burgundavia> just added that
* Burgundavia really does feel sorry for mvo
<Burgundavia> "*   The problem is so bad on Windows that there is a Desktop  Cleanup Wizard."
<mpt> yeah
<mpt> I don't know the difference between Remove and Completely Remove
<Burgundavia> completely remove does the config files as well
<mpt> what is this
<mpt> "Debconf on ubuntu"
<mpt> "What would you like to do about postgresql.conf?"
<Burgundavia> where is that from?
<mpt> It popped up during the installation
<Burgundavia> hmm, odd, no idea
<mpt> I chose "show the difference between the versions" and clicked Forward, and it seems to have hung
<Burgundavia> oh
<Burgundavia> what is your cpu doing?
<Burgundavia> it may be grinding away, apt is not very optomised
<mpt> Cpu(s): 10.6% us,  1.0% sy,  0.0% ni, 88.1% id,  0.0% wa,  0.3% hi,  0.0% si
<Burgundavia> hmm, idle
* mpt kills it
<Burgundavia> http://www.metallikop.com/images/blog/wptray-lg.png
<Burgundavia> run away now
<mpt> and now I think synaptic as a whole is going to be waiting forever for debconf to tell it it's finished
<mpt> hehe, "More Options"
<mpt> "recursive directory links will lockup [sic]  the program"
<Burgundavia> http://www.gnome-look.org/index.php?page=4 <-- someone needs to increase the size of page links here
<Burgundavia> at the bottom
<mpt> I don't mind, I have my minimum font size set to 10px
<Burgundavia> geez gnome-look.org is filled with ubuntu backgrounds
<mpt> heh, I noticed
<mpt> anyway, time for work
<Burgundavia> ok
<Burgundavia> thanks
<mpt> E: dpkg was interrupted, you must manually run 'dpkg --configure -a' to correct the problem.
<Burgundavia> it should just do that for you
<mpt> indeed.
<Burgundavia> you going to file a bug on that?
<mpt> No, I'm going to get back to work
<Burgundavia> salut enrico 
<enrico> hi
<Burgundavia> enrico, how is life going?
<enrico> not too bad
<enrico> although this afternoon I'll be at a marriage and I'm not fond of loong social events
<Burgundavia> ouch
<Burgundavia> salut mdke 
<abelli> ciao
<froud> enrico: hi, thanks
<froud> enrico: you home?
<enrico> froud: for little
<enrico> froud: gotta go to a marriage
<enrico> froud: does it build for you?
<froud> thanks for that
<froud> have not tested yet
<froud> just been generating unique id values
<froud> you think we need to upload it to debian for now
<froud> can it wait a bit
<enrico> sure we can wait
<froud> I was thinking I would try it out on my system, then get some of the people on the team to try it
<froud> then iron out bugs
<froud> and then do deb and ubuntu
<enrico> maybe it's better to upload it in Debian with an HTML version as well, since there's no direct need to have it as a build-dep there
<froud> yes, can do 
<abelli_> ai
<froud> I will make the deb available from the web site
<froud> hello abelli 
<froud> As a test case I will impliment it on the generic installation guide
<froud> that way people in the team can see what it does, how it works
<froud> enrico: ok will keep you posted
<froud> enrico: with regard to how it works I have added to README
<froud> http://computerdictionary.tsf.org.za/project/web-sample.html
<enrico> froud: nice!  Is the README inside dict/ ?
<froud> enrico: Uh no, in trunk/
<froud> good point
<froud> now it is
<enrico> you can put it inside debian/
<enrico> froud: if you don't like it just inside dict
<froud> nah it's ok in dict
<enrico> froud: cool!  cdbs found the README and included it in the package by itself
<enrico> no need for me to update the packaging! :)
<froud> yeah ;-)
<froud> I dont think there will ever be much need to update it
<froud> the tree is very stable
* enrico goes to a marriage
<mdke> this piece of shit router
#ubuntu-doc 2006-05-15
<mdke> holy shit!
<mdke> asian fonts in a pdf
<mdke> that's awesome news
<LaserJock> mdke: do I need to remind you of the CoC? ;p
<mdke> dude, you'll eat your words when I show you a pdf of the packaging guide in korean
<mdke> s/when/if
<LaserJock> hehe
<mdke> oh well, I've got chinese working, from here to korean is but a small skip
<theCore> mdke: what is the deadline for the cover art ?
<mdke> theCore: I don't think we have one. I'm kinda waiting for Madpilot to settle down after moving house and all
<theCore> mdke: okay, I will try to make one cover for the PG, and if it's good I will do the others
<mdke> theCore: I'd suggest you work with what we already have though, there is some nice stuff.
<Burgwork> mdke, my brother is quite possibly the most disorganized person on earth
<mdke> also to bear in mind is the question of whether we are going to have the publisher generate the words on the front page
<mdke> Burgwork: :)
<theCore> mdke: any links?
<Burgwork> I had to help him move, after all
<mdke> Burgwork: didn't you stay up late and oversleep?
<mdke> theCore: no, not at the moment.
<Burgwork> yes, but he spent 3 hours bitching and not packing
<Burgwork> he has the attention span of a retarded rat
<Burgwork> ok, maybe that wasn't so CoC, but hey, I am related to him
<LaserJock> lol
<theCore> mdke: Hmm... then how I can work on the current artwork?
<mdke> theCore: by emailing Madpilot, and/or the list
<Burgwork> LaserJock, can I play with the edubuntu thing this weekend?
<LaserJock> Burgwork: that I put in the repo?
<Burgwork> yep
<mdke> I ROCK
<mdke> http://mdke.org/ubuntu/packagingguide.pdf
<mdke> LaserJock: ^^
<LaserJock> Burgwork: I guess, but try to let me know what your doing because I've got cbx33 and the other guys sending me patches.
<Burgwork> LaserJock, ok, will do
<LaserJock> OH MY GOSH!
<mdke> i was just gonna say
<mdke> you aren't suitably impressed
<LaserJock> mdke: you da man!
<mdke> well, to be fair
<mdke> I've been meandering around on the fop mailing list for ages before they spoon fed me the answer
<mdke> but it's still cool
<LaserJock> heck yeah
<mdke> LaserJock: btw, did you include the lulu spiel in the packaging guide yet?
<mdke> robotgeek: ditto?
<LaserJock> mdke: no, did you put it in the other docs?
<mdke> LaserJock: yes, except I couldn't think of where to put it in PG and KDG, because they don't seem to have a section which says "welcome to this guide, it is available in HTML on this website, etc etc"
<LaserJock> hmm
<LaserJock> mdke: should I add such a sentence?
<mdke> LaserJock: your call. If you copy a paragraph exactly from the other guides, it will be easier for the translators, because Rosetta will auto-suggest it as a translation
<LaserJock> ok, let me check it out real quick
<LaserJock> mdke: the desktop guide doesn't use the common preface?
<mdke> LaserJock: no, we included an extra introduction
<LaserJock> hmm, well doesn't that defeat the purpose of having a common preface?
<mdke> yes, but we couldn't think of a better way to include the introduction
<LaserJock> hmm, well what if I put the 2 paragraphs for doc.ubuntu.com and lulu in the common preface?
<mdke> I'm not sure. Where abouts?
<mdke> oh, plus the serverguide doesn't put those paragraphs in the common preface, it has them in introduction.xml
<LaserJock> alright, I'll put them in my introduction, but for edgy we might want to think about this again
<mdke> yes, I think we can do it better for edgy, you're right
<mdke> ->bed
<LaserJock> k, I've found a place to put it
<LaserJock> jsgotangco: ping?
<jsgotangco> hi
<LaserJock> jsgotangco: somebody had a bug with the Edubuntu Release Notes
<LaserJock> jsgotangco: the link to the FAQ Guide doesn't go anyplace real
<jsgotangco> ???
<jsgotangco> you mean on svn?
<jsgotangco> that's a pretty outdated release notes
<jsgotangco> i will fix it i see the problem now
<LaserJock> but it's on doc.ubuntu.com so people see it
<jsgotangco> yeah i see the issue, thanks for the ping
<LaserJock> jsgotangco: I would have just fixed it but I didn't know what it was supposed to be and I wanted to ask you first
<jsgotangco> not sure either for now, will review it, but feel free to fix it if you have time
<jsgotangco> lol it goes to us robotics site hahaha clever firefox
<LaserJock> hehe
<LaserJock> hi Madpilot 
<Madpilot> hi
<robotgeek> hey LaserJock Madpilot 
<robotgeek> also jsgotangco :)
<LaserJock> hi robotgeek 
<robotgeek> i need to make the changes which mdke asked me to make 
<jsgotangco> hi
* robotgeek wonders where the text to copy is
<robotgeek> hmm, usage of manual vs guide?
<robotgeek> mdke: commited for KDG
<rob> hmm
<rob> I've exchanged a couple of emails with jane off list
<rob> I'll probably reply to her again soon
<rob> so you probably haven't heard the end of things just yet, despite the thread kind of dieing
<mdke> robotgeek: thanks
<jsgotangco> mdke: hello
<mdke> jsgotangco: hiya
<mdke> -> work
<jsgotangco> hmm who deactivated rocco?
<mdke> he did it himself, iirc.
<mdke> accidentally
<jsgotangco> i gotta go
<jsgotangco> brb
<jjesse> thats the most discussion i've seen about a bug ever :)
<jenda> jjesse: And what about Bug #1? 
<mdke> yeah, bug 1 has been spammed to death
<jsgotangco> heh
<jjesse> well not including bug 1
<jsgotangco> i just played the most awesome game i ever got to see
<jjesse> yeah?
<jsgotangco> yeah, it ate 10GB of HD space from my windows machine
<jsgotangco> time to look at these SoC proposals
<jjesse> ouch, sounds like fun though
<jsgotangco> sure its like digging through malone bugs except all of them are wishlists
<jsgotangco> heh
<pitti> hi
<jjesse> hello pitti
<pitti> is anyone here who could correct http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/serverguide/C/cups.html ?
<jsgotangco> hi
<pitti> hey jsgotangco 
<jjesse> jsgotangco can you help him out? i don'thave my docs here 
<mdke> pitti: if you tell us what is wrong with it, or file a bug, we'll consider correcting it, if the error is significant enough to break string freeze
<pitti> the apt-get command on this page is a mess
<pitti> and it won't get translated
<jsgotangco> i have my docs here
<jsgotangco> but not familiar with the doc itself
<pitti> ah, so which package shoudl I file this against?
<jsgotangco> ubuntu-docs
<pitti> ah, thanks
<jsgotangco> cheers pitti 
<pitti> I'll also file a second one about the new /etc/cups/cups.d/
<jjesse> pitti: do these changes affect the desktop guides as well or just the server?
<pitti> jjesse: both I guess, since cups is heavily used on desktops
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jjesse> pitti do you have a bug # for it yet? it will also need to be assinged to kubuntu-docs as well
<pitti> I just filed bug 44025 and bug 44026
<pitti> oh, no ubugtu here?
<mdke> no, but we get them to the ML, I'll take a look and get back to you, thanks
<pitti> thank you, guys!
<pitti> oh, btw, wrt. string freeze: there is a half-ready patch for gnome-cups-manager to add a checkbox to the 'Global Settings' menu to enable/disable printer sharing
<pitti> this is an often requested feature
<pitti> but of course it would change the UI
<pitti> is this strictly prohibited now?
<pitti> or is it a matter of 'if you ask the doc-team before and they agree, it's still possible'?
<mdke> pitti: you just notify the translators and docteam
<pitti> alright, thanks
<pitti> the patch is not yet golden anyway
<jjesse> shouldn't those bugs be also filled against kubuntu-doc as well?
<mdke> we'd have no objection, our docs have hardly anything on printing
<jjesse> as they affect the desktop guide for both?
<mdke> jjesse: did you look in the desktop guide?
<jsgotangco> unless you have very specific instructions for configuring pritners with cups
<pitti> jjesse: cups is DE agnostic, so I guess so; don't you share a 'common' part amongst ubuntu and kubuntu docs?
<mdke> neither desktop guide has anything on printing to speak of
<jjesse> mdke: was checking it
<mdke> pitti: re bug 44025, do the instructions that follow still work with the changes you suggest? if so, then Id say we can fix it without much difficulty.
<pitti> mdke: why should someone manually specify all the libraries and other dependencies of cups?
<jjesse> mdke: well then printing needs to a section we add/expand for edgy
<pitti> aptitude/apt-get will pull in all the dependencies anyway
<pitti> and hardcoding library SONAMEs in the doc is ugly
<pitti> and subject to change
<mdke> pitti: good, thanks
<mdke> jjesse: yes, it is
<pitti> mdke: btw, do you generally use apt-get in the docs? aptitude is much nicer wrt. installing of Recommends: and (even more important for me) automatic dependency cleanup on uninstall
<mdke> pitti: in that doc generally apt-get is used, but we'll be looking for a clearer solution for the next release
<mdke> what we have done in the desktop guide is avoid specifying any package manager, and leaving it to the user to decide, based on instructions given in the package management section
<pitti> that makes sense indeed
<jsgotangco> maybe we should recommend collectively?
<jjesse> well we need a standard for kubuntu and a standard for ubuntu
<mdke> in the desktop guides we do recommend specific managers
<mdke> recommending aptitute in the server guide would make sense
<Reidy> Hey I have a realy retarded problem and I don't know whether or not it is to do with me bieng a complete noob or just something's messed up. I cannot access any other drive or partion other than the one I boot of i have mounted them tyed accesseing them from the console but i get access denied even as root any ideas any one?
<Reidy> Also in the /dev folder if I try access a hard drive for axample /dev/hdb1 I just get could not open the file /dev/hdb1
<jjesse> Reidy: check in #ubuntu for support
<Reidy> ok cheers
<Laser_away> mdke: ping?
<mdke> LaserJock: pong
<LaserJock> mdke: I don't understand why you moved to bug to the upstream product
<mdke> LaserJock: well the idea is that all bugs that are on the documentation should be on the upstream product. 
<mdke> that way we have control about which release we want to fix them in, etc
<LaserJock> but you have that anyway
<LaserJock> upstream product doesn't make sense, but then a lot of LP doesn't make sense to me yet
<mdke> how do you have that anyway?
<LaserJock> so somebody (I don't know who) can set a bug to dapper or breezy or whatever, right?
<mdke> only ubuntu drivers can do it
<mdke> we can't do it
<mdke> LaserJock: any luck with the lulu string change?
<LaserJock> but if I click on a bug (like to change the status) I can set "Also effects: upstream or distribution"
<mdke> LaserJock: yeah, but you can't select which release in a distribution, unless you are an Ubuntu driver
<mdke> I was pretty confused about this too
<LaserJock> ok, but is that a problem?
<LaserJock> do we want to do that?
<mdke> see the recent thread on launchpad-users "Lack of release targeting in Malone"
<mdke> sure, we want to say "we wont' fix this in branches/dapper, but we will fix it in trunk for the next release"
<LaserJock> yeah, that thread is why I'm asking the question, it's still pretty murky for me.
<mdke> it's not very comprehensible, I have to say
<mdke> anyway, any luck on the lulu string change?
<LaserJock> right, so does making the upstream product task help? can you set that then?
<LaserJock> mdke: yeah, but I had a question about the exact wording
<LaserJock> mdke: one sentence uses manual, while the next uses guide. should they be consistent?
<mdke> LaserJock: in the desktop/server guide?
<LaserJock> mdke: yeah
<mdke> I would say that since those have already been translated, let's leave them like that
<LaserJock> the <para> that has the link to doc.ubuntu.com has manual and the the lulu <para> has guide
<LaserJock> ok, np
<mdke> the words are kinda synonymous
<mdke> ideally it would be consistent, but *shrug*
<LaserJock> heh, I can think of some bigger issues that will have to wait too
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> ok, if you commit it, I'll upload to rosetta
<LaserJock> mdke: ok, give me a minute to make a last minute check. I want this to be the last commit
<mdke> sure, no immediate rush
<LaserJock> mdke: btw, did you ever figure out how to ad "page " to the pdf xrefs?
<mdke> LaserJock: I asked on a mailing list, and got an answer, but I haven't implemented it yet
<LaserJock> ok, cool. I just wondered
<LaserJock> mdke: ok, just came across something in the book. a link to a file in ../files/ shows up in the pdf as just that
<LaserJock> is there anything we can do about that or should we just leave it?
<mdke> yes, that occurred to me. I don't think there is anything we can do about it, tbh
<mdke> the same applies to sample/ in the other guides
<LaserJock> right
<LaserJock> I just noticed it because I only have 1 of those
<LaserJock> mdke: ok, I've commited. I fixed a couple xref typos and added a small <para> for the Bug Squad that I think is really needed
<LaserJock> mdke: should be the last from me
<mdke> LaserJock: rock :) thanks
<LaserJock> np
<LaserJock> sorry I was so slow, my in-laws are coming tomorrow and the house is a mess (trying to put in new flooring and landscaping)
<mdke> ooh, cool
<mdke> except the in-laws part ;)
<LaserJock> hehe, I really like my in-laws though, so its cool
<LaserJock> my wife freaks out about it more than I do
<mdke> liking your in-laws isn't allowed
<LaserJock> btw, I talked with sfflaw a briefly about getting more bug related documentation into Edgy
<mdke> as in, hot to report?
<mdke> how*
<LaserJock> I could expand the section I have or, maybe better, a seperate doc
<LaserJock> mdke: yeah, and perhaps triaging techniques, how to use LP, etc.
<mdke> absolutely
<LaserJock> not sure of details, but sfflaw is interested in getting better bug related docs
<LaserJock> trappist, I think, was talking about perhaps having a troubleshooting guide that would have debugging info and how to report, etc.
<LaserJock> it might be pretty cool
<mdke> very good idea indeed
<LaserJock> might be something we would want to spec out and get ideas from mdz, Kamion, sfflaw, et. al.
<mdke> sure, it's interesting to explore the boundary between troubleshooting and bug hunting
<LaserJock> I agree
<crimsun> that's a pretty thin boundary imo
<mdke> yeah
<crimsun> yes, please check with sfflaw, since there are a couple of teams already doing such (I know the kernel team is working on better docs)
<LaserJock> crimsun: right, we talked briefly about it. I'd like to see a shipped doc that sort of puts all this together
<mdke> we're going to need to reassess our help system in genera
<mdke> l
<crimsun> I'm quite interested in what Simon has planned for automated debug generation and/or testing harnesses
<LaserJock> yes
#ubuntu-doc 2006-05-16
<persia> What would be the best place to request a change to the documentation visible from http://doc.ubuntu.com/?
<mdke> persia: here, the mailing list, or the bugtracker
<persia> mdke: The specific request is to add simple-patchsys.mk to the example CDBS rules file in http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/packagingguide/C/basic-cdbs.html.  I'd be happy to use the bugtracker, but I'm not sure which - it is Malone?
<LaserJock> persia: I can field that one ;-)
<persia> LaserJock, mdke: Thank you.
<LaserJock> persia: but I don't see why simple-patchsys.mk is needed
<persia> LaserJock: Because some of the senior MOTUs recommend against adding a new patch system to a package, as the Debian maintainers have complained, but without a patch system, the changes are not restricted to the debian/ directory.  For new packages, it seems best practice to encourage the definition of the preferred patch system prior to any patches being applied, so as to prevent later direct patches.
<persia> (note that senior in this case just means having been around a longer time)
<LaserJock> persia: but that example there are no patches
<LaserJock> *in that
<LaserJock> persia: however, for Edgy we will be doing a much better treatment of patch systems and then your point will be perfectly valid
<persia> persia: simple-patchsys doesn't crash when there are no patches, and no patches directory: it just doesn't do anything.  Without this, cdbs-edit-patch won't work properly unless one manually adds one of the patch systems to the rules file.
<LaserJock> persia: ok, can you send me (mantha@ubuntu.com) an email about it. I gotta get home now.
<persia> LaserJock: Could we please change for Breezy?  I've about 10 packages in the repository with changes in diff.gz that don't use a patch system to avoid irritating maintainers, and it is difficult to merge new debian versions when this is done.
<persia> LaserJock: No problems.  Thanks again.
<mdke> revision 3000 eh
<mdke> not bad
<Burgundavia> mdke: you around?
<ompaul> mdke, got a moment
<mdke> ompaul: alright
<ompaul> I was thinking about Matt Z's mail, I think the wiki upgrade pages could all be pulled into one a standard format, where you have an explaination like Matt's at the top and then it should not have to change except to include version numbers
<ompaul> s/numbers/names
<ompaul> right now the wiki looks like a mess https://wiki.ubuntu.com/?action=fullsearch&context=180&value=upgrade&titlesearch=Titles so it would condense all of that into one page of goodness (but I don't know if kubuntu / xubuntu) can have the same menu entry at the end for users rather than testers
<mdke> give me a few minutes to try and understand what you just said
<mdke> ok, lots of those pages you linked aren't documentation
<ompaul> correct
<ompaul> I am bouncing the idea for an evaluation of "is it reasonable" Clapham omnibus etc
<mdke> dude, you have a really odd way of expressing yourself :) anyway, the idea is to make a page about how to upgrade to the next version of Ubuntu?
<ompaul> I concur about the expressing ones self. yes it is, I think that all existing pages can be condensed into one page 
<mdke> ompaul: it's tricky because the graphical method only applies to dapper and subsequent
<mdke> ompaul: perhaps something like this: Upgrading (introduction), Upgrading/Warty, Upgrading/Hoary etc
<ompaul> that works, I'll do something with it,  when I am happy, I'll hand it off for review. 
<mdke> or just leave things as they are now with one page to draw everything together
<mdke> ompaul: btw, are you interested in the idea of changing the bot to point at documentation, rather than give answers?
<ompaul> yes
<mdke> ompaul: is there a web interface that one can use to change the bot?
<ompaul> no
<ompaul> its got to be done through the !
<mdke> ompaul: so how are we going to go about it?
<mdke> are there people who take care of the bot particularly?
<ompaul> its open to anyone
<ompaul> hang on a sec
<mdke> sure, but are there people who do lots of work in that area?
<ompaul> I imagine there are about 10 regulars
<ompaul> http://ubuntu.cc.com.au/ can be used to dump the info 
<ompaul> sorry stick pop.php after that 
<mdke> so we'd need to get them familiar with where the more reliable docs are on various areas
<ompaul> mdke, yeap that would be the idea
<ompaul> if you have a land line handy want me to ring you, I don't speak quite as bad as I type :)
<mdke> ah good, looks like there are plenty of links already
<mdke> ompaul: i don't have one at work
<ompaul> okay
<mdke> the links are good, but they point at the wiki rather than our docs
<ompaul> this is because the wiki is easier to search, now do you see why I wanted search :-) [note to self explain in as much detail as you can what it is you are trying to achieve] 
<mdke> right, but now the docs are really well structured so you can find the info easily: "ati" would be http://help.ubuntu.com/6.06/ubuntu/desktopguide/C/hardware.html#graphics-cards "repos" would be http://help.ubuntu.com/6.06/ubuntu/desktopguide/C/extra-repositories.html
<mdke> codecs/mp3 etc http://help.ubuntu.com/6.06/ubuntu/desktopguide/C/codecs.html
<mdke> java etc for browsers http://help.ubuntu.com/6.06/ubuntu/desktopguide/C/internet.html#web-browsing
<ompaul> care to have a chat this evening on this?
<mdke> ompaul: yeah, this evening is fine, I think
<ompaul> I would like to give you a heads up on who is who 
<mdke> sounds fine. I won't have much time to work on this, I've got loads on my todo list for Ubuntu right now
<ompaul> no problem, I can carry it, if I have instruction
<mdke> but I'm encouraged that there are lots of links there already
<mdke> so it's just a question of gradually getting in links to our docs
<ompaul> yeap that makes sense
<ompaul> okay I'll let you go until later, drop me a note with your telephone, or if you have skype (shudder etc) 
<ompaul> say about 8pm?
<mdke> ompaul: fine, I'll mail you
<mdke> ompaul: you're in ireland right?
<ompaul> I am 
<mdke> what tz is that?
<mdke> excuse my ignorance
<ompaul> bst
<mdke> oh, good
<jjesse> hello jsgotangco
<jsgotangco> jjesse: hi!
<LaserJock> mdke: ping?
<WaterSevenUb> hhmm... in the desktop guide, C/add-applications.xml:219(para),  Ubuntu will inform you with a pop-up and a red icon in your notification area... In one of the daily builds I've tested days ago the icon was orange...
<WaterSevenUb> is red correct?
<LaserJock> hmm, I thought it was red, but I can't tell the difference much between orange and red on such a small icon
<WaterSevenUb> it was red in breezy....
<WaterSevenUb> but I think in dapper is orange now...
<WaterSevenUb> at least was, a few days ago:) yeah, it is very small.
<jjesse> was it changed?
<jjesse> WaterSevenUb: file a bug report :)
<WaterSevenUb> I will, later on. I need to double-check.
<mdke> WaterSevenUb: we have a bug report on it already
<WaterSevenUb> mdke, ok, thx.
<LaserJock> mdke: busy? I wanted to ask you about the change persia wanted in the PG yesterday
<LaserJock> mdke: if I change a line in a <screen> section will that mess up the translators, it isn't translated and it isn't in a <para> I don't think
<mdke> LaserJock: yeah, that will need translating again
<mdke> i *think*
<mdke> what's the string inside the <screen>?
<LaserJock> its just the contents of a file, it shouldn't be translated
<mdke> right, but even if it stays the same, it might show up as translatable
<LaserJock> I'm not terribly keen on adding it
<mdke> what's the exact string currently, i'll search
<LaserJock> it currently looks like:
<LaserJock> <screen>#!/usr/bin/make -f
<LaserJock> include /usr/share/cdbs/1/rules/debhelper.mk
<LaserJock> include /usr/share/cdbs/1/class/autotools.mk</screen>
<LaserJock> in basic.xml
<LaserJock> and I persia wanted me to add one more include line
<mdke> yeah, it's in the translation template
<LaserJock> :/
<LaserJock> ok, well then maybe I'll put it in trunk and leave dapper alone.
<mdke> sabdfl is going to insist on putting the book in System/Help
<LaserJock> hmm
<LaserJock> mdke: could we make it "Ubuntu Book Excerpts" and not in System Documentation ?
<mdke> yes, that's the idea
<mdke> i still think it sucks though
<LaserJock> did you read the part in my email about that
<mdke> yes
<LaserJock> I think it is a bit odd they argue that their won't be competition because they are different media and targets (books vs. online docs)
<LaserJock> s/their/there/
<LaserJock> but maybe I misunderstood
<mdke> yeah, it's all balls.
<mdke> I'm starting to suspect there is a commercial reason behind it, maybe it's part of the contract or something
<LaserJock> hmmm
<LaserJock> that could be
<jjesse> i was just as shocked as you all are that it is going to be included
<mdke> ompaul: i won't have time to hook up this evening, we'll have to do it another time.
<mdke> jjesse: mark said that the discussions about inclusion included the authors
<Burgwork> mdke, I knew it was going to be included, but I thought the time frame was edgy
<Burgwork> there was some talk of possibly having it for dapper, but that was only talk, afaik
<mdke> ah
<mdke> Burgwork: btw, you pinged me earlier?
<LaserJock> maybe we should have Mark fill out a UI Freeze exception report ;-)
<mdke> Burgwork: while you're here, what do you think about having book sections in System/Help?
<Burgwork> mdke, I have someone who speaks italian and whose english is a little broken. They also said they couldn't get a hold of the ubuntu-it people. Can I forward you the email?
<mdke> Burgwork: course
<Burgwork> mdke, I have forwarded two to you
<mdke> cool
<mdke> Burgwork: your take on System/Help/Book
<mdke> ?
<Burgwork> hmm, thinking
<Burgwork> sorry, work is busy
<mdke> np
<LaserJock> well, there are always decisions made by leaders that we would like to change. You can't please everyone I suppose.
<LaserJock> but this and that darn Edubuntu background are really the only things bugging me so far about Dapper
<mdke> heh
<mdke> as always at this time in the release cycle, I start getting frustrated that Mark gets a million ideas and wants to implement them all at the last minute
<LaserJock> mdke: maybe we need to give him a fake release date, say 2 months before we really release, so then he can have his fun and we can have time to implement, ignore, etc. :-)
<mdke> yeah, but he decides the release dates too :-(
<mdke> we need a sabdfl freeze
<LaserJock> LOL, yes!
<mdke> i remember jdub proposing that for breezy...
<highvoltage> an sabdfl freeze?
<mdke> i gtg
<highvoltage> bye mdke 
<LaserJock> cya mdke 
<Burgwork> mdke, I like the idea of having the book available, but oppose it for dapper
<LaserJock> hmm, I'm starting to dislike the whole LTS think a bit. It seems like there is a lot of "We gotta get this in because this our big release" but some stuff just isn't timed right
<highvoltage> 'some stuff' will never be timed right :(
<LaserJock> exactly
<LaserJock> and lots of stuff is on the way, it just won't be done in time for dapper
<LaserJock> but most of this is in hind sight, it is very hard to predict where the distro will be 6 months down the road
<ompaul> mdke, no worries
<Burgwork> holy crap! Canonical is going to be hiring about 24 new people int he new few months
<crimsun> excellent.
<LaserJock> for what?
<Burgwork> anything and everyting
<Burgwork> see marks blog
<mdke> Burgwork: btw our new wiki is up. I've started writing down some things we could do before it goes live, feel free to add: https://new-help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiToDo
<mdke> same goes for everyone else too
<Burgwork> mdke, very cool
<Burgwork> mdke, you should apply to canonical to lead the doc team full tie
<Burgwork> s/tie/time
<LaserJock> especially since you are always here anyway. Might as well get paid for it ;-)
* Burgwork is thinking of applying to canonical, in a mixed marketing/sales role
<mdke> Burgwork: I would quite like a job with canonical, maybe in local community or documentation, but I'm certainly tied up until september
<mdke> i wonder if they need a lawyer
<Burgwork> mdke, I am certain they could wait for a few months
<mdke> heh, if they need someone to do that in the first place
<Burgwork> mdke, you can sell yourself
<mdke> actually, the locoteams need a bit of loving
<mdke> it's all a bit disorganised
<Burgwork> I don't think there is a single person on the doc team that wouldn't support you
<mdke> awww, shucks
<Burgwork> yes,  a full time loco team contact would be nice
<Burgwork> you have a good mix of social and technical skills, plus dedication
<mdke> btw, what has happened to ubuntu-ca?
<mdke> http://www.ubuntu.ca/
<Burgwork> ah, the current owner is MIA
<Burgwork> we have not lost the domina, merely the DNS is screwy
<mdke> ubuntu-ca.org is going there too
<Burgwork> ya, I know
<Burgwork> long story
<LaserJock> mdke: btw, what is going to happen to Edubuntu pages when the wiki moves? This EC job has got me all Edubuntuized ;-)
<mdke> LaserJock: what do you want to happen?
<mdke> I'd say, the documentation can come to help.u.c, and anything community should stay
<mdke> but obviously, these things are a matter for the edubuntu people
<LaserJock> hmm, that might become interesting
<LaserJock> we'll have to talk it over. it might make a dandy agenda item or the next meeting :-)
<LaserJock> right, now wiki.edubuntu.org gives the edubuntu theme to the pages. Would that still be in place on the new wiki?
<LaserJock> s/,//
<Burgwork> LaserJock, are you guys not moving everything to moin anyway?
<LaserJock> Burgwork: hmm? There is presently a decent amount of documentation on the present wiki
<Burgwork> sorry, not moin
<mdke> LaserJock: we haven't planned any theming for the new wiki at the moment
<Burgwork> to drupal, or whatever the new thing is
<LaserJock> Burgwork: haven't heard of that but it could be
<mdke> it's a CMS
<Burgwork> LaserJock, the thing highvoltage is working on
<mdke> ompaul: still around?
<LaserJock> hmm, well in the mean time we might have to figure out which, if any, of the pages should go to the new wiki
<mdke> LaserJock: the current system is that any page with CategoryDocumentation in it is going to get moved
#ubuntu-doc 2006-05-17
<ompaul> mdke, back
<mdke> ompaul: bed time :) Drop me a mail if you want to talk about anything re: this bot thing
<ompaul> okay
<jsgotangco> good morning
<Madpilot> hi jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> hey brian how are you?
<Madpilot> good - busy
<Madpilot> hi all
<Burgundavia> salut robitaille
<robitaille> Hi Burgundavia 
<jsgotangco> brb
<pitti> hi
<pitti> I have a patch in https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/gnome-cups-manager/+bug/8023 which I'd like to apply for dapper, but it changes the UI
<pitti> what's the prefered way to ask the doc team for approval/rejection? I cc'ed ubuntu-doc to the bug and asked, is that fine?
<rob> the mailing list is the best option
<pitti> rob: hm, then I have sub first, I guess; thanks
<rob> no probs
<rob> best to let mdke know too
<rob> (he reads the list though)
<rob> pitti, thanks for the heads up
<pitti> rob: sent, btw
<jsgotangco> mdke: ping?
<mdke> jsgotangco: pong
<jsgotangco> hey guys
<jsgotangco> mdke: i already forgot what's on my mind
<mdke> jsgotangco: np :)
<mdke> was it the edubuntu guys?
<jsgotangco> no
<Burgwork> jsgotangco, I see no reason why not, for both
<mdke> I'm not particularly comfortable with it, I will follow up on list
<jsgotangco> hey Burgwork, its been a while
<jsgotangco> mdke: yes feel free, after all, they are the ones who approached me
* mdke nods
<LaserJock> mdke: I talked with them a bit today
<mdke> LaserJock: right
<jsgotangco> we havent been meeting lately so i had it on list instead
<LaserJock> mdke: I told them they should probably send patches a bit before they become members so they get used to our workflow, etc.
* mdke nods
<jsgotangco> yeah i also said its all about patches
<mdke> I think basically to have svn access, what we should look for is 1) good English and knowledge of our styleguide 2) familiarity with docbook (sending a few patches that validate), 3) familiarity with svn, and 4) dedication. These two guys obviously have 4), but personally I'd prefer to see some patches before confirming (1-3)
<LaserJock> mdke: exactly
<mdke> however, I'm really in favour of edubuntu action in our repo
<mdke> jsgotangco: are edubuntu docs generally written in docbook?
<jsgotangco> only mine for now
<mdke> what other docs are in the distro? who writes them, and in what format?
<jsgotangco> and LaserJock ported the others
<LaserJock> just the School Advocacy page
<mdke> what happened to this cookbook thing?
<jsgotangco> heh
<mdke> I see occasionally stuff about it on planet
<LaserJock> it is on the wiki, no?
<jsgotangco> it just fizzles out i dunno
<mdke> not in the distro?
<jsgotangco> it is cursed probably because i started it lol
<mdke> heh
<mdke> ok, so there seems to be no real barrier to edubuntu docs going on in our repo?
<jsgotangco> mdke: there's really no action except mine and LaserJock's recent commit
<LaserJock> other than interest, and I think we are taking care of some of that
<jsgotangco> (on the svn i mean)
<mdke> right
<LaserJock> but I think ogra and JaneW are all for it
<jsgotangco> heck i'll probably be able to beat june 1 to write a realy cookbook of ubuntu food
<jsgotangco> but that would be like mocking the current effort
<jsgotangco> :)
<mdke> LaserJock: all for what?
<mdke> docs in our repo?
<jsgotangco> i actually don't see a need that much, a small effort can be done in bzr for now
<LaserJock> mdke: yeah
* robotgeek will start working again after he finds a job :)
<mdke> jsgotangco: I think it would be cool in terms of uniting the efforts on edubuntu with those on the other derivatives
<jsgotangco> does elmo still have exclusive lock on the svn? or is it also sent now to the tracker
<LaserJock> i'll be back in ~20-30 min. I gotta drive to work
<mdke> jsgotangco: tracker?
<mdke> oh, i see what you mean
<mdke> yeah, rt for new additions
<jsgotangco> request tracker of sorts, like how syncs are done now
<jsgotangco> that's cool
<Burgwork> jsgotangco, what do you think of getting mdke to work for canonical, as doc team slave?] 
<robotgeek> plus, he doesn't get to say IANAL
<jsgotangco> i think that's a good idea, he's in london, we're not (and im not even qualified)
* jsgotangco is not even canonical-caliber material to even think about himself
<Burgwork> jsgotangco, I am in a major dilemma, because I enjoy my job, but want to work on Ubuntu fulltime and think I can provide something that Canonical wants
<jsgotangco> Burgwork: me too but im just not confident i guess or probably because i am just too far
<mdke> Burgwork: since you're already working in a related area, I think you should definitely go for it. It will be great career-wise
<Burgwork> mdke, my ex said the same thing
<Burgwork> I don't know, it is too hard to decide
<jsgotangco> if they decline, at least you still have your job
<mdke> Burgwork: ex?
<Burgwork> yep
<Burgwork> mdke, ex-gf
<mdke> bummer
<Burgwork> meh, life happens. Now I get to live the lavalife
* mdke nods
* mdke nods, without really knowing what the lavalife means
<jsgotangco> Burgwork: i dunno, ive been doing linux-related work for 5+ years but i seem to have no direction at all
<mdke> sounds good tho
<Burgwork> dating site, cause of much fun
<Burgwork> true
<jsgotangco> Burgwork: at least you get to work on something that is associated with them
<robotgeek> good luck to you Burgwork 
<Burgwork> robotgeek, thanks. I think I have a better than even chance of getting on with Canonical, with my Ubutnu and non-Ubuntu work
<robotgeek> Burgwork: yup
<mdke> course you do
* robotgeek just got off a phone screen, phew
<Burgwork> I just need to figure out what job I actually want
<mdke> go for the webmaster thing
<jsgotangco> yeah do lots of python stuff
<jsgotangco> :P
<Burgwork> I lack the skills in programming for that
<Burgwork> but mark is also looking for marketing people
<Burgwork> and sales
<mdke> Burgwork: nah, I don't think programming skills are very high up on the list. You can learn them as you go
<Burgwork> thing is, I am not certain I want to be a webmaster
<mdke> I think the classic definition of webmaster doesn't apply, look at what henrik used to do, it's much more varied
<jsgotangco> i wish i had your confidence, i am culturally bound to feeling not up to par at all
<mdke> jsgotangco: you shouldn't be like that dude
* robotgeek is now coding in the evil propreitery software
<jsgotangco> mdke: i have failed many times before and i am simply a bit too old to fail again
<Burgwork> jsgotangco, don;t think like that
<jjesse> hey rob
<jjesse> wrong ping
<robotgeek> he jjesse 
<jjesse> robotgeek: evil prorietary (you mean MS ) :")
<robotgeek> jjesse: that and NI
<mdke> bbl
<jsgotangco> robotgeek: heck i even code more evil prorprietary mobile telecom crap
<jjesse> robotgeek: grin i'm an evil empire network admin for a living :)
<robotgeek> jjesse: well, i'm having to pick up vb "skills" in a hurry
<robotgeek> i though C and python were good enough for everyone!
<jsgotangco> robotgeek: same here sadly, i have to program this IVR crap on VB
<jsgotangco> because Asterisk is such a crack to configure in a short span of time
* jsgotangco wished he had more time to create his Asterisk spec
<jsgotangco> but here i am almost 3am just finished doing a test on VB crap
<jjesse> hey guys just wanted to let everyone know that i'm switching jobs in two weeks so i might awol for a bit
* jsgotangco is most definitely not happy wit this
* robotgeek is spending about 10 hours a day on finding the right job 
<robotgeek> jjesse: great. good luck :)
<jsgotangco> robotgeek: im in a good paying job but i seem to be not happy
<jjesse> thanks, don't know if i'll be allowed IRC at new job like i am now :)
<dsas> You guys are enough to put off people from entering The Real World. :p
<jsgotangco> dsas: you could always start an entrepreneural career in SecondLife ;)
<jsgotangco> www.secondlife.com
<jsgotangco> heh
* robotgeek hates the tag of mechanical engineers must know cad 
<jjesse> jsgotangco: do you play secondlife?
<jsgotangco> dsas: i will probably be deemed obsolete in a few more years
<dsas> jsgotangco: I'd never hear the end of people telling me to get a real job I'm sure.
<jsgotangco> jjesse: yeah dude, in SL, people pay me to escort them lol
<dsas> jsgotangco: You make it sound like you're a computer yourself. I'm sure you can renew your skills if need be.
<jsgotangco> jjesse: for some reason, i always forget to change my linden dollars to real $
<jjesse> jsgotangco: that's cool that people can make money in secondlife
<jsgotangco> strange but true
<dsas> There's some new-ish mmorpg that you use actual real dollars to play the game, and you can withdraw them at any time.
<robotgeek> i already spend too much time in front of the computer. i need a Real Life TM
<jsgotangco> as long as its not invaded by asian in-game resource farmers, it would be fine
<robotgeek> anyways guy, lunch time for me
<robotgeek> err, guys
<jsgotangco> oh well
<jsgotangco> there's nothing much i can at the moment, except live with what i have :)
<jsgotangco> can't complain even, i still am capable of paying my bandwidth and my child's education as well as drive a car
<jsgotangco> yuck this new usplash looks horrid
<LaserJock> so who's going to Paris again? jjesse did I see you can't make it?
<Burgwork> LaserJock, not going, due to work
<jsgotangco> LaserJock: you're going?
<LaserJock> well, I heard from a reliable source that I'm sponsored, but I haven't gotten an email quite yet
<mdke> cool
<jsgotangco> wow you have a mole!
<Burgwork> LaserJock, is JaneW leaking information again?
<LaserJock> I have spys everywhere. You guys think that sabdfl is running the show?  hehe
<jsgotangco> LaserJock: cool, you can add lasers to the city of lights then
<LaserJock> Burgwork: I can neither confirm  nor deny... ;-)
<LaserJock> anyway, if I go I'd like to have some doc discussions
<Burgwork> LaserJock, the issue we have always had is that not enough are there
<dsas> This time there's not going to be as much discussion though right? Most planning is to be done upfront.
<Burgwork> it is usually a crazy week of talking
<jsgotangco> yes
<jsgotangco> and getting drunk
<jsgotangco> (if you're with the right people)
<jsgotangco> at least in paris you'll get drunk with style
<LaserJock> hmm, I'm not really a drinker, but I better not say that too loud or they won't let me go ;-)
<mdke> azz, 6 days til translation freeze
<LaserJock> yikes
<Burgwork> when is the "We tie Mark's hand behind his back"-freeze?
<mdke> there isn't one :-(
<jsgotangco> wow i must be pretty well-stoned its almost 4am and i am still awake
<mdke> jsgotangco: too much green tea?
<jsgotangco> mdke: more like too much brain activity going
* jsgotangco badly needs a haircut even
<mdke> ah, that's bad
<mdke> i switch off my brain at 6 sharp
<jsgotangco> i wish i could afford that
* Burgwork bites his tongue
<mdke> meh
<mdke> that was 6am
<jsgotangco> mdke: those poor clients...
<mdke> i don't have any :)
* jsgotangco definitely isn't living in the right place/timezone
<LaserJock> heh, good thing my wife runs my life. I have to go to bed by midnight or else ;-)
<LaserJock> keeps me from doing stupid things at 3 or 4 am :-)
<mdke> yeah, I need my girlfriend back
<mdke> I have exactly that problem
<Burgwork> mdke, are you single?
<mdke> no, she's just away
<jsgotangco> enjoy being single while you still have it
<jsgotangco> i will try to sleep
<jsgotangco> cest la vie
<mdke> good night
<jsgotangco> au revoir
<LaserJock> jsgotangco: go to bed, cya :-)
<Burgwork> mdke_, do you have connection issues? Is that why I see lots of _ and __
<Burgwork> hmm, that was odd
<mdke> Burgwork: sometimes yes
<LaserJock> yeah for tranlations!
<Burgwork> mdke, for some reason, xchat closed
<mdke> Burgwork: ok.
#ubuntu-doc 2006-05-18
<mdke> bloody hell these translations are exhausting
<mdke> we need some scripts next time
* mdke swears at whoever felt the need for 3 different english translations of about-ubuntu
<mdke> s/3/4
<sman> hello
<sman> after the partition manager loads the computer stops i've leftit on for days and it just stays on that screen
<Guest_790> hey is anyone there?
<Guest_790> im having trouble installing ubuntu on my toshiba
<Guest_790> whenever the computer is trying to boot from the live cd or the install cd, the screen just turns black and nothing ever happens
<Guest_790> anyone know why?
<Guest_790> hello
<Guest_790> ?
<Guest_790> ?
<mgalvin> Guest_790: this is not a support channel... try #ubuntu
<jsgotangco> hi guys
<LaserJock> hi jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> hey
<rob> hmm, no one around?
<jsgotangco> hi
<rob> hi jsgotangco 
<LaserJock> so I'm around
<rob> need a password reset on the svn..
<jsgotangco> i dunno the process now, but if Im right, all requests are done with the RT
<rob> RT?
<LaserJock> rob: request tracker
<rob> we have one of those now?
<LaserJock> launchpad
<jsgotangco> lp infrastructure
<jsgotangco> sycns are now done with rt
<rob> ah ok
<rob> where in Launchpad is it?
<rob> did I mention that I don't like launchpad?
<jsgotangco> heh go rant at #launchpad instead
<LaserJock> and they will say "We're working on it, you just need to wait"
<rob> dam closed source junk
<jsgotangco> im going to take a shower brb
<LaserJock> hi Madpilot 
<Madpilot> hi LaserJock 
<jsgotangco> LaserJock: ping?
<LaserJock> jsgotangco: yeah?
<jsgotangco> LaserJock: just doing some writing, can you confirm if dselect is the one used during installation?
<LaserJock> jsgotangco: I'm pretty sure it is
<jsgotangco> Merci monsieur LaserJock
<LaserJock> I asked in -devel just to make sure ;-)
<LaserJock> jsgotangco: ah, Mithrandir says that the text installer uses aptitude and not dselect
<LaserJock> doh, I didn't see you were in -devel
<jsgotangco> LaserJock: thanks, actually i knew its all aptitude, but i needed to make sure, dselect isnt one of the prettiest applications out there heh
<jsgotangco> (but dselect is still part of the distro)
<jsgotangco> so basically we use dpkg, apt, aptitiude
<LaserJock> yeah, I used dselect a time or two back when I mess with Debian years ago
<LaserJock> that is where I was thinking it used it
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jsgotangco> although the Debian page doesn't recommend installing and doing a dist-upgrade using aptitude
<jsgotangco> hrmmm
<jsgotangco> must be an old page
<LaserJock> aptitude installs Recommended packages by default
<jsgotangco> yeah
<LaserJock> I can see where that could be interesting for dist-upgrades
<jsgotangco> won't that add bloat unless the depends are cleverly done (ie, replace apps but not config files)
<LaserJock> you just need to run it as aptitude -r and then it behaves lik apt-get
<Kamping_Kaiser> is the 'quicktour' in /ubuntu/ in docteam svn?
<Kamping_Kaiser> and i noticed trunk go quiet - is this because of stringfreeze?
<Madpilot> yes, to both questions, as far as I know
<Kamping_Kaiser> hm. i only see a quicktour for kubuntu. 
<Madpilot> hmm, you're right... I could have sworn the Ubuntu quicktour used to be in our SVN...
<Kamping_Kaiser> i'm just doing 'an australian translation' (changing color/colour ize/ise etc). and noticed a few 'hm' things
<Kamping_Kaiser> so i wanted to look them up
<Madpilot> into EN_au, eh?
<Kamping_Kaiser> yeh. am i stepping out of the closet ? :)
<LaserJock> I think that the quicktour has been depreciated, perhaps
<LaserJock> and string freeze doesn't apply to trunk
<Kamping_Kaiser> LaserJock, that could explain it
<LaserJock> I thought I remember hearing that About Ubuntu replaced the quick tour
<LaserJock> but I'm not positive
<Madpilot> I know Corey has dropped quicktour - it was his project for Breezy
<Kamping_Kaiser> LaserJock, me to, but i saw it there, so i was wondering 
<LaserJock> the Kubuntu one?
<Kamping_Kaiser> yeh. sorry. i;ll say that again:
<Kamping_Kaiser> i thought the quickguides were dropped, but i saw a kubuntu one in svn, and an ubuntu one up for translation, so i wondred
<LaserJock> hmm
<Kamping_Kaiser> brb
<jsgotangco> En_AU heh...
<LaserJock> I had no idea there were so many en_*
* Kamping_Kaiser feels victemised :(
<jsgotangco> if you get a form asking for your sex, in en_AU the choice would be bloke and sheila
<LaserJock> I was making a chroot yesterday and watched them all the en_* be created
<Kamping_Kaiser> theres only a dozen :P
<LaserJock> how are those determined?
<LaserJock> I mean what about a en_DE for people who speak english with a german accent? ;-)
<Kamping_Kaiser> hehe. 
<Kamping_Kaiser> LaserJock, i dont know. they are all dialect, but how big a difference is a question. en_AU could easyily just be en_GB
<jsgotangco> heh
<jsgotangco> LaserJock: we actually have en_PH here (this is a predominantly english-speaking country)
<jsgotangco> which is basically en_US
<LaserJock> really? I wondered why all the filipino grad students in my department spoke such good english
<jsgotangco> LaserJock: that is a heritage of our American colonial masters theh
* jsgotangco bows to LaserJock
<LaserJock> well, I'm glad our colonial imperialism did some good ;p
<crimsun> native US citizens tend to have abominable English. Pretty sad.
<jsgotangco> sure we now have more fastfood chains that we ever need
<jsgotangco> and Col. Sanders stands proud more than ever
<LaserJock> crimsun: like me? hehe
<crimsun> LaserJock: pretty much everyone including myself :)
* Kamping_Kaiser is always amused by the us splitting off from colonial engliand and then doing that sort of thing itself
<jsgotangco> it runs in the blood lol
<Kamping_Kaiser> hehe
<LaserJock> and now we are just about a colony of Mexico so I guess it has come back on us ;-)
<jsgotangco> haha
<Madpilot> for confusion, there's always en_CA, which can't decide whether it wants to be more like en_US or en_GB :P
<Madpilot> currently we're going thru a "be more like en_GB" stage
<Kamping_Kaiser> lol. your in a hard place there ;) en_AU is trying to be everyones bitch
<LaserJock> Madpilot: yeah, we got rid of the GB part much sooner. :-)
<Kamping_Kaiser> ise > ize
<LaserJock> lol
<Kamping_Kaiser> :)
<Madpilot> American spelling creates a terrible surplus of "u" ;)
<LaserJock> I was helping with this Edubuntu School Advocacy pamphlet for British schools
<Madpilot> all those words like colour & armour that they misspell
<Kamping_Kaiser> lol Madpilot 
<LaserJock> it is sooo hard to get the ise vs. ize thing right
<Kamping_Kaiser> then the poor DE people have to use them ;)
<Kamping_Kaiser> LaserJock, esp. for GB, becaues they care ;D
<LaserJock> I just let the British guys figure out there own spelling ;-)
<Madpilot> or their own spelling, perhaps? ;)
<Kamping_Kaiser> rofl
<LaserJock> yeah, whatever. I'm american, I'm expected to be sloppy
<LaserJock> but my mom would kill me if she saw my spelling on IRC sometimes
<Madpilot> IRC isn't quite real, it doesn't really count
<Kamping_Kaiser> lol ++
<LaserJock> those stupid homonyms get me all the time :(
<Madpilot> those are the ones that spillchuckers never catch either - proofreading still matters
<LaserJock> I'm glad I had trappist and crimsun to straighten me out on the Packaging Guide
<Madpilot> which reminds me, I should go thru the Xubuntu Desktop Guide this weekend - do a proofreading run
<jsgotangco> LaserJock: is autopackage evil?
<LaserJock> well, I haven't actually tried it, but from a MOTU perspective I don't think many of us are thrilled about it
<LaserJock> we tend to not like to have people running software from multiple package systems
<LaserJock> with our .deb repos we can know exactly what we are putting on the users computer and it has pretty extensive testing
<jsgotangco> right, im actually reading year old ubuntu-traffic postings
<dsas> Heh, I was reading year old ubuntu-devel stuff during dinnertime yesterday.
<jsgotangco> pre -devel? it used to be sounder acutally
<LaserJock> some people have expressed skepticism about the claim to be able to install apps on any Linux system
<dsas> happened across the autopackage stuff then, it seemed it wasn't smiled upon....
<dsas> Nah, I was reading about Hoary time I think, in which it case it was -devel.
<LaserJock> we have a hard enough time with making Ubuntu packages work on Ubuntu :-)
<jsgotangco> dsas: im doing a small article about package management systems for a local magazine, i had to list down the known ones, then their pros and cons
<jsgotangco> there's also smart which is looming for eft
<LaserJock> hmm, is there a wiki page or something about how to burn an iso so you can install Ubuntu?
<Kamping_Kaiser> i thought there was 'a while back'
<LaserJock> good night doc people, I'm off to bed
<Kamping_Kaiser> ;ater mate
<dsas> jsgotangco: http://www.licquia.org/archives/2005/03/27/autopackage-considered-harmful/ was pointed to in the discussions on ubuntu-devel I remember.
<dsas> I remember mdz said that that article and the one linked was correct (but could've been put more nicely). Or something.
<jsgotangco> thanks for the link
<jsgotangco> brb
<Madpilot> later all
<Kamping_Kaiser> lol @ quit
<mdke> morning
<rob> hi mdke
<rob> I want my password reset :)
<mdke> rob: right yeah, I read in the scrollback.
<mdke> rob: you said you were gonna send some patches!
<rob> I hate patches
<mdke> why?
<rob> I just want to be able to sit down and start working when I get some time
<rob> there isn't any rush of cause, just thought I'd mention it after that email on the list
<mdke> rob: you can, doing a patch is as fast as: svn diff > patch.diff && mail to list.
<mdke> anyway I can request a new account for you, but I'm keen to see you contributing again :)
<rob> and kill a couple of birds with one stone
<rob> oh, that reminds me, better check out the repo again (and leave it over night)
<rob> I've been sticking my head into a few xubuntu bugs
<rob> about time a decent xfce4 distro came along :)
<rob> anyway, I'd better be off
<mdke> bye, look forward to seeing you contribute again
<rob> bye mdke, so do I
<hybrid> ok can someone help me getting started with docs?
<mdke> hybrid: absolutely. Did you see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam ?
<hybrid> not thourghly
<jsgotangco> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam
<hybrid> ty mdke and jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> read it, its only 3 paragraphs
<mdke> and then all the subsequent pages ;)
<mdke> the first step is usually to grab our repository and play around
<hybrid> yeah, i volunteered to help with the wiki, but i just dont know where to start
<mdke> ah, for the wiki, we have a list of pages that need tidying up. It's at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CategoryCleanup
<mdke> just dive into something that interests you
<hybrid> ok, so i just edit it, no proceedors i need to follow through first?
<mdke> hybrid: we have a guide to wiki work at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WikiGuide
<mdke> generally pages just need some help with making them easier to understand, or formatting help, and so on
<hybrid> ok ty much
<jsgotangco> but then its a wiki page, fill free to improve on it (don't delete or make sweeping changes)
<mdke> np, welcome
<WaterSevenUb> will the release notes be translatable?
<mdke> i hope so
<WaterSevenUb> ok. 5 days left right? 
<mdke> something like that
<mdke> but the release notes aren't in the distribution, anyway
<Bluekuja> mdke: ping
<mdke> Bluekuja: pong
<Bluekuja> I'm getting this error Premature end of data in tag article line 4, transforming xml file into html one 
<Bluekuja> line 4 is <article lang="en" id="FtpServerHowTo" status="draft">
<mdke> what are you working on?
<Bluekuja> i dont see any error inside that line
<Bluekuja> but doing xsltproc i get that
<robotgeek> Bluekuja: does the file validate?
<mdke> Bluekuja: with docbook all the tags have to be in a certain order
<Bluekuja> no, after that it says unable to parse
<mdke> it's likely that you haven't got the order right
<Bluekuja> so it doesnt validate it
<mdke> try working on one of our files
<robotgeek> Bluekuja: it would have told you expecting blah blah, got: blah blah
<mdke> Bluekuja: in our repo, you'll see a script for validating docbook files: called validate.sh
<Bluekuja> oh
<Bluekuja> tell me more about it
<mdke> you run it like this: ./validate.sh ubuntu/desktopguide/C/desktopguide.xml
<mdke> and it tells you whether the file is valid docbook xml or not
<mdke> and if not, why
* robotgeek prefers ../../../validate.sh desktopguide.xml
<Bluekuja> ok matt, just a moment i try it and put here the log
<mdke> use a pastebin
<Bluekuja> ok
<Bluekuja> well, with validate.sh i get the same parse error of before
<Bluekuja> Premature end of data at line 4
<mdke> as I said, tags have to be in a certain order, are you sure you have a complete article file?
<Bluekuja> I'm not sure about i have started it from the first line, it's not a copy
<Bluekuja> *it
<mdke> yeah, have a look at some existing files to see what you're doing wrong
<Bluekuja> ok perfect
<jeffsch> Bluekuja: your first 3 lines are probably something like this:
<jeffsch> <?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
<jeffsch> <!DOCTYPE article PUBLIC "-//OASIS//DTD DocBook XML V4.3//EN"
<jeffsch> 	"http://www.oasis-open.org/docbook/xml/4.3/docbookx.dtd" [] >
<Bluekuja> jeffsch: yes
<jeffsch> make sure you have the final ">"
<Bluekuja> let me check
<LaserJock> I prefer ~/ubuntu-doc/validate.sh desktopguide.xml ;-)
<mdke> just to be different
<Bluekuja> jeffsch: yes final > is there
<jeffsch> fyi: validate.sh is nothing special, just a single line... xmllint --noout --xinclude --noent --postvalid $1
<jeffsch> Bluekuja: hmm...
<dsas> plus  20 lines of gpl.
<jeffsch> haha. gpl of a command line :)
<LaserJock> hehe, that was my fault :-)
<jeffsch> Bluekuja: is that the only error you get? Premature end usually comes after some other error
<mdke> Bluekuja: paste us the whole file
<Bluekuja> it works!!
<Bluekuja> great
<Bluekuja> i didnt added the closing tag
<Bluekuja> *add
<Bluekuja> of article
<mdke> right, every tag you open has to be closed
<Bluekuja> yep
<Bluekuja> well article one was at the end and maybe i didnt put it 
<Bluekuja> jeffsch,mdke: all it works now but the first title is duplicated
<Bluekuja> there are 4 titles instead of one
<jeffsch> Bluekuja: put your file in a pastebin so we can look at it
<Bluekuja> oki
<Bluekuja> jeffsch: http://pastebin.com/715543
<jeffsch> Bluekuja: you are missing the []  in  "http://www.oasis-open.org/docbook/xml/4.3/docbookx.dtd" [] >
<Bluekuja> i'm getting the same title problem
<Bluekuja> i corrected it
<Bluekuja> do you see anything else?
<jeffsch> Bluekuja: yes, your document does not validate
<jeffsch> see the docbook docs for proper <title> tag usage
<Bluekuja> let me check it
<jeffsch> sorry, it's not the title tag... it's the article tag
<Bluekuja> oh okie
<jeffsch> ok, i found it...
<jeffsch> you can have only one title tag in an article
<Bluekuja> other ones are subtitles and so on  right?
<mdke> you can have one title for an article, one for a section, etc
<jeffsch> one title and one subtitle under the article tag
<Bluekuja> oh okie
<mdke> Bluekuja: as well as looking at our files, look at incoming/article-template.xml
<jeffsch> after that, you should use sect1, sect2, etc
<jeffsch> line 32, for eg <title>Methods Explanation</title>
<jeffsch> should be <sect1>Methods Explanation</sect1>
<Bluekuja> and near first option?
<Bluekuja> leaving title will be ok?
<mdke> jeffsch: <sect1><title>Methods Explanation</title> ...
<jeffsch> oops
<mdke> Bluekuja: look at that template, it is really good
<Bluekuja> mdke: ping
<mdke> Bluekuja: pong
<Bluekuja> matt take a look here http://bluekuja.com/ftpserver.html
<Bluekuja> put www in front
<Bluekuja> it gives an error without^^
<mdke> Bluekuja: I see it
<Bluekuja> how it is?
<mdke> Bluekuja: what aspect of it do you want feedback on? The format looks alright, although the section headings seem to be uneven
<Bluekuja> yeah, i need to fix section headings
<Bluekuja> well i think that would be a nice doc to put it
<Bluekuja> *in
<mdke> the links aren't working
<Bluekuja> yep, i need to add them
#ubuntu-doc 2006-05-19
<mdke> also you should use more formatting. So use <filename> for filenames, <application> for application names, and <emphasis> where you want to emphasise something
<Bluekuja> ok, great
<Bluekuja> let me fix
<mdke> is this a test doc or did you have something particular in mind for it?
<Bluekuja> well it started to be a test doc, but i'm thinking to make it official
<mdke> what did you have in mind?
<Bluekuja> well, i was thinking to add in other related docs like "irc server how to" etc
<Bluekuja> that i've made
<LaserJock> Bluekuja: have you seen http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/serverguide/C/index.html ?
<Bluekuja> well, no this is the first time
<Bluekuja> there is already a ftpserver part but there arent a lot of informations about it
<Bluekuja> LaserJock: what do you think?
<Bluekuja> mdke: and you?
<LaserJock> you should probably start by trying to add to the existing docs, sending patches to the mailing list
<mdke> Bluekuja: if you are thinking about adding documents to the distribution, you need to aim at incoroporating them with the existing structure of documents
<mdke> individual howtos we generally keep for the wiki
<Bluekuja> LaserJock,mdke: yeah, a nice idea would be to add the doc i made inside the server guide
<mdke> Bluekuja: you'd have to work with the existing ftp material, which uses different software
<Bluekuja> well yes, what about making two different parts, one with vsftpd and another one with pure-ftpd
<Bluekuja> two related things
<Bluekuja> it would be possible?
<mdke> Bluekuja: that is generally something we avoid. Especially because pure-ftpd is not in the main repository
<mdke> we like using supported stuff, for the server guide
<Bluekuja> i see that there isnt an irc server guide inside it
<mdke> that's true.
<Bluekuja> what about it?
<mdke> I don't know, it doesn't seem like a very common activity for server admins
<mdke> it might be a better howto for the wiki
<Bluekuja> yeah, i've already made it in the wiki
<mdke> ah, nice
<Taim> So would it be safe to say it's best covered if it's part of a LAMP install and it resides in the main repository?
<mdke> Taim: what do you have in mind?
<Taim> Really, I am just getting a feel for how it all works.
<mdke> Taim: reading the docs we've done so far is a good way in. Is there something missing from the server guide you feel?
<mdke> something in particular
<Taim> No, not particularly.
<Taim> I haven't had a chance to fully read the docs.
<mdke> Bluekuja: the other thing we need to talk about is style
<Bluekuja> mdke: yes
<Bluekuja> mdke: tell me more about it
<mdke> Bluekuja: have you seen our styleguide?
<mdke> it's very important that you read that and get familiar with it
<mdke> http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/styleguide/en/index.html
<Taim> I see from the status that some help is being requested for the firewall configuration portion.  I am considering digging into that some.
<Bluekuja> mdke: ok, i take a look at it
<mdke> Taim: ah, I think that was dealt with, the status thing might not be completely up to date. We sort of had to fill in all the blanks to get things ready for release
<Taim> gotcha.
<mdke> Taim: however, that's not to say it doesn't need improving for the next release :D
<Taim> True, true.
<mdke> especially cos it was done in a bit of a rush
<Taim> I wasn't really concerned to much about the upcoming release, I kinda figured it would be pretty close to finished by now.
<mdke> yeah, we froze it a while back to allow translation to start
<Taim> ah.
<Taim> So where does one track release schedules besides the respective mailing list (if one exists)?
<mdke> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DapperReleaseSchedule
<Taim> Cool.
<Taim> So, digging around in all the wiki pages, reviewing the mailing list and generally hovering are a good method for getting up to speed on how documentation works?  Anything else I should be looking at?
<mdke> Taim: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam has lots of good explanations of stuff. And just ask in here if you have *any* questions
<Taim> That's where a good portion of my time has been spent.
<mdke> ah cool
<mdke> Taim: things are a little quiet here at the moment due to having got one set of docs out the door, and we need to start planning for what to do with the next release cycle now
<Taim> No real questions yet other than what might need to be done.  Seeing as you are in a freeze, I am just hoping now is a good time to get caught up.
<Taim> understandable :)
<Taim> What tools do you find best to use for writing docs?
<Bluekuja> Taim: gedit
<LaserJock> vim, yelp, and firefox ;-)
<mdke> it's all about gedit
<Bluekuja> mdke: :D
<Taim> hehe.  Sorry, didn't mean to start the typical editor wars :)
<Bluekuja> Taim: lol :)
<Taim> I waver between gedit and vim.  
<Taim> gedit's simple and clean, but vi is great for repetitive work.
<Taim> and between the two, I don't want to hear about emacs.
<LaserJock> there are a few emacs lovers around ;-)
<LaserJock> I haven't edited in X enough to use gedit much though
<Taim> I am stuck flipping between.  Mostly at work I am stuck with vi.
<mdke> that's not so bad
<mdke> lots are stuck with notepad :)
<Taim> when at home, I tend to like gedit.  But that came from a love for nedit.
<Taim> True, and I do use that as well...that and....<_<....>_>......office.
<mdke> ouch
<Taim> Most of our documentation is written in word, uploaded to the slowest repository known to man.
<mdke> what do you do?
<mdke> i tried searching the internet but found that you were a mythical character
<Taim> AIX/Solaris support for a rather large financial company.
<mdke> cool
<Taim> I generally avoid posting more than techincal questions.
<Taim> You will probably find a bit from m0n0wall archives, slashdot and some other stuff.
<mdke> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazrim_Taim
<Taim> Yeap.  It was a much better choice than "Mandarb"
<Taim> I am/was a huge Robert Jordan fan.
<Taim> My real name is Tim, so it just kinda fit.
<mdke> pleased to meet you Tim
<Taim> and you.
<LaserJock> hi Tim
<Taim> Hello.
<Taim> forgive me if I don't know your names :)  I generally have a hard time associating real/nick anymore.
* LaserJock is Jordan Mantha
<Taim> Hello Jordan.  Nice to meet you.
<mdke> a /whois generally does it
<crimsun> robert jordan needs to be shot for allowing WoT to drag on and on and on...
<Taim> He is suffering for it now.
<crimsun> yeah, he has built up a readership that will cut his throat
<LaserJock> WoT?
<Taim> http://www.tor.com/jordan/
<Taim> read the announcement
<Taim> Wheel of Time.
<Taim> Hello, Mat.  I don't use my real name in the "real name" field.
<Taim> I probably should.  I just left it that way from WAY back when.
<crimsun> yeah, we use our real names for easier identification in the Ubuntu developer community.
* mdke nods
<Taim> Makes sense.
<mdke> either that, or LP needs to add searching on irc nick
<LaserJock> mdke: yeah, the people searching isn't so good right now
<Taim> Well...I can fix that.
<Taim> let's see...
<Taim> So how long have folks been documenting with Ubuntu?
<LaserJock> ok, I'm off for a while, gotta take the inlaws shopping ;-)
<LaserJock> Taim: since about Nov for me
<Taim> later.
<mdke> Taim: march or so last year
<Taim> cool
<Burgundavia> Taim: dec 2004 for myself
<mdke> Taim: Burgundavia is our veteran ideas-man
<Taim> Ah
<Taim> Hello Burgundavia
<Burgundavia> hey Taim
<Burgundavia> mdke: that reminds me. we should revisit my png in svg in docbook idea for edgy
<mdke> Burgundavia: I don't think I've heard that one
<Taim> bbl.  Food is calling.
<Taim> Thanks for the info!
<rob> mdke still around?
<mdke> rob: yes
<rob> has planning started for edgy yet?
<rob> or are we waiting to see what happens with the book?
<mdke> i dunno
<mdke> no harm in ideas
<rob> I guess its kind of hard anyway considering all the new things that will be bought in for it
<rob> I might keep hacking away at the online editor for the time being
<mdke> ok
<Burgundavia> mdke: you embed a screenshot in an svg, in order to annotate the screenshot, while still allowing translations
<mdke> sounds crazy
<Burgundavia> mdke: it sort of works in yelp, there were some rendering issues back in dec 2004
<Burgundavia> haven't looked at it since
<jjesse> mdke: i made some changes to kubuntu release notes and i don't see them up on doc.ubuntu.com can you update things?
<Madpilot> hi Burgundavia 
<Burgundavia> salut Madpilot 
<jsgotangco> yo!
<Madpilot> hi jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> hey dude
<jsgotangco> pretty quiet on all channels on a saturday/sunday huh
<Madpilot> fairly quiet - #ubuntu is active but not really busy...
<Burgundavia> salut jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> hi
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia: how's it going?
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, not bad. Having a major moral dilemma with regards to the whole Canonical hiring thing
<Burgundavia> I am starting to enjoy my job, but truly think I need to follow my heart
<jsgotangco> lol why not wait for a posting to happen before making a decision, after all its just 3 positions posted at the moment
<Burgundavia> http://keithcu.com/wordpress/?p=27 <-- hmm
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, I am going to write my own job description, if I can
<Burgundavia> mark did say they were looking fro sales/marketing people
* jsgotangco have yet to think of his value-added if ever he would apply
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, you have lots to offer, don't say that
<jsgotangco> just skimmed over the article, smart would be nice add-on but most people will think it'll allow cross installation between formats which isn't
* jsgotangco is currently writing an article for a local zine about package systems and formats
<jsgotangco> autopackage rates 0
<jsgotangco> heh
<Burgundavia> smart can offer that functionality, if somebody codes it
<Burgundavia> I think the best thing about smart is that it offers the ability to switch out the backend without too much pain for the end user
<jsgotangco> yes
<jsgotangco> hmm for some reason, his write up reminds me of the two towers heh
<Burgundavia> back to that article, I like his idea, but I think it would be taken as "ubuntu taking over debian"
<jsgotangco> right, as much as Digium is literally Asterisk
* jsgotangco is having fun with his Digium card
<Burgundavia> we have an asterix box at work
<jsgotangco> that is fun
<Burgundavia> not exactly the worlds most stable, but I have no comparison of equiv closed source systems
<jsgotangco> there is no comparison to speak of really, flexibility is one thing that closed systems can't match
<jsgotangco> the only thing that lacks is an IVR that can be configured graphically
<Burgundavia> hence the VB you were writing
<jsgotangco> yep its painful
<jsgotangco> i wonder if i can replicate something in gambas
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia: even Asterisk@home is a shock for most people installing it
<jsgotangco> there's also Bayonne but its more suited for IVR, haven't really checked on it
<jsgotangco> when i entered into telecoms i was literally clueluess
<Burgundavia> indeed. One of the local lug guys works for a company that builds voicemail systems
<Burgundavia> they tried using asterix and discovered it didn't scale, so they did their own
<jsgotangco> its asterisk, not asterix, heh, that's a cartoon character
<Burgundavia> yep, I always do that
<jsgotangco> how's the book going?
<Burgundavia> we are going to press soon
<Burgundavia> it has largely been radio silence, but I have been paid
<Burgundavia> ughh...
<jsgotangco> wow
<Burgundavia> I hate how flash breaks keyboard shortcuts
<jsgotangco> so manuscript is done?
<Burgundavia> I assume so
<jsgotangco> how many pages total? 300+?
<Burgundavia> no idea, tbh
<jsgotangco> hmmm more than 300+ would be too much for a desktop reference IMO
<Burgundavia> I haven't even seen the whole book
<jsgotangco> why is that?
<Burgundavia> apress book is 535
<Burgundavia> because communication has been bad. Somewhat my fault for not asking more questions
<Burgundavia> I have learned a lot with this book
<jsgotangco> i haven't seen the apress book, but most books have filler material tbh
<jsgotangco> on our part, we just passed review, we hvae been slow but it has been good experience as well...we just focused on meaty stuff
<jsgotangco> i think the best decision we made was do everything on svn
<Burgundavia> Madpilot, http://www.bccampus.ca/Page93.aspx
<Burgundavia> apress book is not very focuses
<Burgundavia> s/s/d
<Burgundavia> but then again, our goes into Kubuntu and other things
<jsgotangco> you could easily fill up 100 pages of basic stuff that can be read on the relase notes and installer guide
<Burgundavia> yep
<Madpilot> Burgundavia, cool. who is behind that?
<Burgundavia> Madpilot, looks like bc open university and the creative commons canada people
<Madpilot> Burgundavia, you saw the thing about Stats Canada allowing non-MS browsers now?
<Burgundavia> Madpilot, yes, they now have a big thing about Linux users
<Burgundavia> apparently they have caught a lot of heat for it
<Madpilot> good
<Burgundavia> probably some manager somewhere is wondering exactly how all the shit hit the fan so quickly
<Burgundavia> shows the sheer power of the internet is organizing people
<Madpilot> hehe - blogs+websites+mailing lists+misc other forums=major manure+ventilation moment ;)
<Laser_away> well said :-)
<Burgundavia> bleeding installer borked all over me...
<Madpilot> again?
<jsgotangco> lol
<jsgotangco> i think its known
<Madpilot> liveCD installer or the old one?
* jsgotangco likes what he sees in smart
<Burgundavia_> grumble
<robitaille> the LiveCD installer has always worked for me...but there is a boat load of bug reports in LP about it...
<robitaille> 94 open bug reports to be exact...
<rob> its pretty good, I don't like the partitioner though
<jsgotangco> i dont even use it at all
<jsgotangco> call me old school whatever
<Burgundavia_> the partioner needs serious work
<rob> took even me a while to figure out what the heck was going on with it, not very user friendly though it tries to be
<Burgundavia_> it needs some more basic modes, like d-i has "delete this partition and install ubuntu in the free space"
<Madpilot> odd - I'm searching malone for a gLabels bug I remember commenting on last year, and can't find any glabels bugs at all...
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia_: so after this book-writing experience do you want to do it again?
<robitaille> Madpilot:   bug 1929 ?
<robitaille> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/glabels/+bug/1929
<Madpilot> thanks, robitaille - that was the bug I was looking for
<Madpilot> now why the heck didn't a basic search for 'glabels' turn that up?
<robitaille> already fixed bug will not appears in a default search
<robitaille> you have to go in advance and click on a few extra option before searching
<Madpilot> ah
<Madpilot> I see - "fix commited" bugs always show up, but "fix released" bugs don't get listed in search, by default...
<robitaille> Madpilot:  essentially whatever shows up in a default search are bugs that should be acted on at one point, including fix commited  The fix released ones are gone forever (hopefully...)
<Madpilot> right
<robitaille> which means we have to look for duplicates of Breezy bugs more often than not in already fixed bug reports...
<Madpilot> makes sense, except when you're actually looking for an old bug ;) (someone on the forums was wondering about that image-import bug in glabels...)
<Burgundavia_> robitaille, did you see that post about Ubuntu and bugs on lxer?
<robitaille> Burgundavia_:  nope.  URL?
<Burgundavia_> http://keithcu.com/wordpress/?p=27
<robitaille> "While Ubuntu has 2 million customers"...wow  I never think of it that way...
<Madpilot> we tend to think of "users", not "customers", I suspect ;)
<Burgundavia_> I think the number is closer to 6 myself
<Madpilot> Burgundavia_, doesn't that blog post boil down to "Ubuntu needs to control Debian" - which is, AFAIK, one of the things Mark was trying to avoid?
<Burgundavia_> Madpilot, basically , yes
<jsgotangco> Madpilot: all your base are belong to us
<jsgotangco> heh
<Madpilot> wonder how many "Ubuntu != Debian" emails that guy has gotten already?
<robitaille> In my opinion,  Ubuntu needs a strong Debian.  Which was easier to achive when DEbian was a lot bigger than Ubuntu in number of users.  Now is a bit more complex of a relationship...
<Burgundavia_> here is another interesting tidbit, but completely unrelated
<Burgundavia_> until recently Ubuntu has been unchallenged at the top of the distrowatch charts
<Burgundavia_> but recently suse has knocked Ubuntu off on the 7day charts
<jsgotangco> its because suse just released a new version with a lot of bling
<jsgotangco> it has n-m, xgl, compiz running
<Burgundavia_> yep
<jsgotangco> desktop bling will definitely drive traffic
<Burgundavia_> but when suse 10 and fc5 came out, they didn't move up that much
<jsgotangco> well suse 10 is utterly horrible imo
<Burgundavia_> not tried it
<Burgundavia_> if you I cannot get a distro in one cd, I am not going to bother
<robitaille> there has been a lot of shifts in linux distro in the last 2 years.  Ubuntu was one change.  A  Suse is another.  
<jsgotangco> robitaille: that's true
<jsgotangco> FC5 didnt really do anything revolutionary
<robitaille> wasn't the unofficial business plan of Canonical to aim to be in the top 3 of a new "world order" of linux distro?
<Burgundavia_> but fedora has slowly been shaking up their goverence and technical structure
<crimsun> I think people are missing the point entirely with these "Ubuntu needs to do..." and "Debian needs to do..." blogs.
<jsgotangco> what i'd like to see on a longer term is for debian-based systems to be more visible in the telephony space
<jsgotangco> atm its basically redhat
<jsgotangco> its the final frontier :)
<Burgundavia_> well, see if mark will fund some work on asterisk and telelphony in ubuntu
<Madpilot> Telbuntu? ;)
<jsgotangco> Madpilot: its more complicated than that heh,
<Kamping_Kaiser> ROFL
<jsgotangco> Digium really sticks to RH-based for now
<jsgotangco> every person who downloads @home automatically installs a CentOS box
<jsgotangco> :)
<Burgundavia_> what would it take to get @home to use a better distro
<Burgundavia_> ?
<Burgundavia_>  </troll>
<jsgotangco> hmm just based on my experience, not a lot imo
<jsgotangco> its just nicely packaged and rolled as one solution
<jsgotangco> it even included the drivers fro interface cards based on zapata
<jsgotangco> the kernel is probably patched even (not really sure)
<jsgotangco> i gotta go to the grocer brb
<Madpilot> night all
<mdke> morning
<Burgundavia_> salut mdke 
<mdke> hi Burgundavia_ 
<mdke> http://mdke.org/tmp/help.png <-- what do people think of the tabs?
<mdke> Burgundavia_: 
<mdke> http://mdke.org/tmp/help.png <-- what do people think of the tabs?
<dsas> mdke: I quite like it, it's obvious where to go for the specific releases documents.
<mdke> dsas: good. I couldn't think of anything shorter for the labels which would work nicely
<dsas> Maybe another way would to be adopt the same tabs as ubuntu.com and add release specific documentation links to a right hand sidebar. It has the bonus of looking like the other ubuntu pages that way but has the disadvantage of making it harder to find release specific stuff.
<dsas> it should be slightly longer: 6.06LTS (Dapper Drake) :p
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> a sidebar is not really an option
<mdke> technically speaking
<dsas> They bug me a lot of the time usability wise anyway.
<dsas> just curious, how come they're not an option technically speaking?
<mdke> well, because that header has to be on all the html we generate, and I just don't know we could put side tabs in, and I certainly don't have time to figure out if it's possible
<dsas> ahh, is the header in svn?
<Burgundavia_> the sidebar is a hack heno did for ubuntu.com
<mdke> it's in the stylesheets we use to build html from xml
<Burgundavia_> mdke, they look good
<mdke> dsas: so that way, they'll be on every page of html we build
<mdke> Burgundavia_: cool
<dsas> mdke: Ahh ok, that wouldn't be a good thing.
<mpt_> oh, there are tabs!
<mpt_> mdke, those tabs are in the same place as the ones on ubuntu.com that aren't really useful
<mpt_> so it wouldn't surprise me if people didn't notice them at all
<mpt_> perhaps move them over to the left?
<mdke> mpt_: and move the "ubuntu documentation" image to the right?
<mpt_> no, one above the other
<mdke> hmmm
<mdke> lemme see
<mdke> mpt_: it looks pretty bad :)
<mdke> http://mdke.org/tmp/help2.png
<Burgundavia_> mdke, for now, I think stick with the ubuntu.com style, but I think we should look at a website revamp in the next little bit
* mdke nods
<Burgundavia_> as, to move the tabs left means that we would eat up more precious vertical screen real estate
<janimo> mdke: hi
<janimo> can the pot file go anywhere in the xubuntu-doc package?
<mdke> janimo: well, yes, I think so.
<mdke> janimo: you don't ship the xml do you?
<janimo> mdke: don;t think so. Did not spend much on the docs package so far
<janimo> I think it's html only though
<mdke> janimo: it just needs to be in the source, not the binary
<mdke> so if you include it where it currently is, that will be fine
<janimo> currently you mean the current package
<mdke> I mean, as it is in our branch
<mdke> at xubuntu/desktopguide/desktopguide.pot
<janimo> yes, I include it there
<mdke> cool
<janimo> I thought you meant the xml files
<janimo> thanks
<janimo> so wehn it's uploaded rosetta admins need to be notified?
<mdke> janimo: give me a ping when you've uploaded, and I'll talk to the rosetta guys
<janimo> ok, thanks :)
<mdke> janimo: also, give a little bit of thought to how to include the translations, when they arrive. I don't know what help viewer you use or how it works 
<janimo> firefox :)
<mdke> ah.
<janimo> I guess the regular C/ XX/ YY/ locale thing
<janimo> subdirs
<mdke> how do users find the documentation in the first place?
<janimo> not there yet, but I plan to put a link iin the startup menu
<janimo> now there;s ans xfce help entry there
<mdke> right. So all that is necessary is for that link to be localisable
<janimo> near that or instead of that I guess
<janimo> yes, I'll need to give some tought to that as well
<mdke> great, sounds like it will be doable
<janimo> a bit late I guess but I think it is doable
<mdke> janimo: as the translation string freeze is this week, the infrastructure should get in place asap, if possible
<janimo> yup
<mdke> once that is done, it is easy to add more advanced translations post-release
<hybrid> howdy everyone
<mdke> howdy
<luzi> mdke ?
<mdke> luzi: !
<luzi> xubuntu-docs has been uploaded.
<mdke> luzi: great
<luzi> mdke, you were going to talk to rosetta people about it, right? 
<mdke> luzi: yes, I'll post to the mailing list when everything is working
<luzi> mdke, is there anything else i need to do at the moment?
<mdke> luzi: nope, it's in rosetta now, it just needs one of the admins to approve it to start translation
<luzi> ok, nice. i'll call that my cue to go to bed then :o)
<mdke> me too, g'night
<luzi> bye
<LaserJock> hi mdke, how's it going?
<LaserJock> busy, busy, busy?
<mdke> LaserJock: yeah, pretty busy
<LaserJock> translations mostly, I'm guessing?
<mdke> yes, and real work
<LaserJock> oh yeah, that ...
<mdke> i need to do some ironing too
<LaserJock> I just keep seeing more and more Ubuntu work to do
<mdke> heh
<crimsun> yay, my work is done. There are no more bugs.
* crimsun puts on his blinders
<LaserJock> hehe
<jjesse> mdke: are the release notes for kubuntu current on doc.ubuntu.com?
<mdke> ah hi jjesse 
<mdke> jjesse: I don't know to be honest. Yesterday I saw they didn't build so I fixed some things, you should check what I've done
<jjesse> mdke: ok will do
<mdke> jjesse: it's vital to check stuff validates before uploading it, otherwise all the builds break together
<jjesse> mdke: sorry thought i validated it before i commited
<mdke> heh
<mdke> it was seriously broken
<jjesse> grin that's what i get for working on it when i was laying in bed :(
<mdke> jjesse: basically everything goes on doc.u.c if it is included in the "all" target in the kubuntu Makefile, and it builds properly
<mdke> so it should be up to date now
<mdke> jjesse: are the releasenotes nearly finished?
<jjesse> ok, i'll verify and go to work, want to make sure DapperReleaseNotes/Kubuntu matches with what is on the docs
<mdke> cool
<jjesse> mdke: they should be i wouldn't see why there would be any changes from now on
<mdke> great, then maybe we can stick them in rosetta in the next couple of days
<jjesse> ok, i'll follow up with riddell to see any changes need to be made and then i'll let you know so we can get them uploaded
<mdke> great
#ubuntu-doc 2006-05-20
* Burgundavia commits to the doc team repo
<Burgundavia> figured that might just a major event recently
<jsgotangco> lol
<mdke> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/dapper-changes/2006-May/010876.html
<mdke> wtf is that
<mdke> i mean, seriously.
<Burgundavia> mdke, no, idea, but it is cool
<Burgundavia> what is DJL license?
<mdke> cool in that it invalidates our docs 15 days before release
<Burgundavia> is that the new Java license that Sun was talking about?
<mdke> that's my favourite type of cool
<Burgundavia> JavaOne starts today and I think they were planning on some type of announcement
<mdke> yeah, but feature freeze started 3 months ago
<Burgundavia> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc-commits/2006-May/002551.html <- add then there is this
<Burgundavia> what is up with that, honestly
<mdke> heh, yeah I saw that, nice one
<Burgundavia> feature freeze does not apply to new packages in multi/universe
<Burgundavia> my laptop broke, so I am back to my desktop for now
<Burgundavia> broke as in, the installer broke
<Burgundavia> I think it is a worth a string freeze to change our docs
<Burgundavia> with regards to the java stuff
<mdke> dude, translation freeze is TOMORROW
<mdke> I find it unlikely that the translators will be able to deal with that
<jsgotangco> amen
* mdke grumbles about last minute changes
<jsgotangco> hey :)
<jsgotangco> 1 paragraph???
<Burgundavia> it does suck that it came this late, but it is very cool
<jsgotangco> you mean the advocacy page?
<Burgundavia> no, the java thing
<jsgotangco> ahhh
* jsgotangco can't scrollback - irssi
<Burgundavia> mdke, since we are going to be pissing off our translators with that disks thing, shall we do the java thing at the same time>
<mdke> Burgundavia: I want to find out what the java thing is, I'm mailing -devel now
<Burgundavia> well, my cd has ended (I always enjoy beethoven) and it is 2am. I need to sleep
<Burgundavia> night all
<mdke> night
* mdke sends off an icy email to -devel
<poningru> what disk thing?
* poningru has yet to get it
<poningru> and is now utterly confused
<mdke> we're switching between -devel and here a bit
<poningru> ah
<jsgotangco> mdke: i got offered sponsorship
<mdke> for coming to the conference? nice
* rob wonders if he should combind the AptFile and AutoApt wiki pages..;
<rob> s/combind/combine
<poningru> mdke: did you find out what the java thing was about?
<mdke> poningru: not yet. I emailed about it
<poningru> k
* poningru watches -devel like a hawk
<motin> I've got some stuff for Ubuntu documentation. It is work in progress, but will surely be helpful for new Ubuntu user's: http://wiki.motin.eu/HowToComfortablySwitchFromWindowsToUbuntu
<motin> ..
<motin> strange. ill try again
<motin> I've got some stuff for Ubuntu documentation. It is work in progress, but will surely be helpful for new Ubuntu user's: http://wiki.motin.eu/HowToComfortablySwitchFromWindowsToUbuntu
<rob> we saw it the first time, its written across our screens
<mdke> motin: if you'd like to consider integrating your work with https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SwitchingFromWindows that would be great
<motin> mdke: Hmm haven't seen that one
<mdke> motin: one preliminary comment is not to link to ubuntuguide.org, it's really out of date. Try to get familiar with our documentation at http://help.ubuntu.com/6.06
<mdke> bbl
<motin> mdke: I'll not put the link out, since it has helped me on Dapper, but I will write a note about it being outdated, and refer to the official documentation instead
<motin> rob: for some reason onyl half of it was displayed on my screen, so I tried again
<rob> cool :P
<motin> mdke: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SwitchingFromWindows and my wiki page have totally different goals. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SwitchingFromWindows is a great resource, but pecks on details. Mine's plain practical and more suited as an alternative to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SwitchingFromWindows. Full integration is not the best way to go here I believe. Rather a link or two in relevant chapters would be a nice way to do it. 
<mdke> motin: well they both have the same basic aim. I don't see why the specific aims can't be accomodated in the same document. As for ubuntuguide.org, linking to an out of date resource is extremely unhealthy, especially where better documentation exists
<motin> mdke: Okay i'll remove it. 
<motin> I am integrating some parts of it right now
<mdke> great
<motin> There... updated https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SwitchingFromWindows
<jsgotangco> hey jjesse
<jjesse> hiya jsgotangco
<jsgotangco> how's it going
<jjesse> got a killer headache today, probablly leaving work early :(
<jsgotangco> awww
<jjesse> dang it, got a note from Jane W saying that Canonical is willing to sponser me to go to the Ubuntu Developer Confrence in Paris, but i'm starting a new job the week before and won't have vacation :(
<jjesse> dang it :(
<jsgotangco> jjesse: same here
<jsgotangco> heh go to Paris so we could meet up!
<jjesse> i wish i could
<jsgotangco> why not? dang...
<jjesse> but new boss probablly won't like it if i say "I need a week of vacation to go to a confrence the week after i start
<jsgotangco> well yeah, it'll be a hectic week as well
<jsgotangco> (and being drunk at night)
<mdke> mgalvin: any news on release notes?
<mgalvin> mdke: yea, sorry about that... i was out of commision last week... i already started to work on them this week and should have some stuff to commit shortly
<mdke> mgalvin: have the developers been doing some too?
<mgalvin> mdke: not that i know of
<mdke> mgalvin: ok.
<jsgotangco> you wish!
<mdke> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DapperReleaseNotes ?
<jsgotangco> i started that
<jsgotangco> that's from my old BreezyReleaseNotes
<mdke> it looks as if it has had some work
<mdke> mgalvin: ^
<jsgotangco> yeah its still worth using
<mgalvin> i have seen it... yea there is certainly stuff there we can use
<jsgotangco> check BreezyReleaseNotes too on how it was structured, althought the Dapper preview pages are good for release notes too
<glatzor> hi jsgotangco.
<glatzor> may i ask you about the state of the g-a-i manual?
<glatzor> has mvo already merged a later version? should I "fix" the issues myself in my branch?
<jsgotangco> glatzor: hi
<jsgotangco> glatzor: i'll have it fixed now, i did plan it to fix before the day ends
<jsgotangco> glatzor: i did made some minor changes (like your name) but i think mvo wasn't able to merge
<jsgotangco> glatzor: gimme a few minutes then i'll ping mvo
<jsgotangco> glatzor: but if you want to make the change, feel free i'll merge from you
* jsgotangco is just doing a fix on some work
<tristanbob_> I just downloaded Flight7, and I see an document with a missing image - Do you want to hear about that here?
<mdke> tristanbob_: yes
<tristanbob_> in the examples, document called "oo-introducing-ubuntu.odt" there is a place-holder for an image of Espresso
<tristanbob_> well, Espresso is pretty much done, but no pic
<mdke> tristanbob_: ok, can you file a bug on example-content?
<jjesse> do we maintain the example content?
<tristanbob_> mdke: yes I can do that
<tristanbob_> mdke: looks like next time I will look at existing bugs BEFORE filing a new one
<tristanbob_> I created a bug-report, then saw it already existed, so I marked mine as a duplicate
<tristanbob_> ok I have another question related to Espresso
<tristanbob_> is Espresso now called Ubiquity?
<tristanbob_> and should the docs reflect that?
<mdke> yes
<LaserJock> mdke: have you gotten any better info on java than from robitaille?
<Burgwork> mdke, have you pinged doko
<Burgwork> ?
<mdke> yes, I got the info
<mdke> nothing to change yet
<LaserJock> I suprised I hear anything about it
<LaserJock> I didn't see any Feature Freeze stuff in -motu about it
<LaserJock> Burgwork: thanks for the ESA edits, the LTSP section really flows nicely
<Burgwork> LaserJock, hey, np
<Burgwork> can I play on Tuesday after work as well?
<LaserJock> I would think so
<Burgwork> ok
<LaserJock> I think cbx33 has been busy with work, etc.
<Burgwork> I want to cut down the 9 items in difference to 7
<Burgwork> plus I need to add one in, about licensing
<LaserJock> which ones do you want to take out/merge?
<Burgwork> I haven't really looked at that yet
<Burgwork> LaserJock, I am going to email to edubuntu
<LaserJock> Burgwork: good idea
<Burgwork> overall, I really like the structure and the first bit is great
<LaserJock> Burgwork: cool
<LaserJock> I tried to rework it as much as I could with cbx33
<mdke> hi
<sivang> howdy guys
<sivang> so, mdke :
<sivang> Setting up scrollkeeper (0.3.14-11ubuntu1) ...
<sivang> Rebuilding the database. This may take some time.
<sivang> I/O warning : failed to load external entity "/usr/share/ubuntu-docs/common/zh_TW/preface.xml"
<mdke> what version of ubuntu-docs are you using?
<sivang> ///usr/share/ubuntu-docs/ubuntu/serverguide/zh_TW/serverguide.xml:401: element include: XInclude error : could not load /usr/share/ubuntu-docs/common/zh_TW/preface.xml, and no fallback was found
<mdke> yeah, I saw the paste already
<mdke> don't worry about the version, I see the bug.
<mdke> is it preventing you from installing something?
<mdke> sivang: is it preventing you from installing something?
<sivang> mdke: not that I saw , I just now rebooted after it was requested in my dist-upgrade process, but it seems that SK's db would be inconsistent now or lack this link to the server guide?
<mdke> sivang: yes, that's fine. I've fixed it in our repository, it'll be in the next upload
<sivang> mdke: cool, are you also the packager?
<mdke> sivang: we all chip in. dholbach uploads
<mdke> everyone can touch packages in Ubuntu, don't forget
<sivang> mdke: cool :)
<sivang> yes, I will not forget
<LaserJock> essentially anybody with svn access can change the packaging
<mdke> well, or anyone with upload rights :)
<LaserJock> main upload rights
<mdke> yeah
<sivang> anywyay, laters. I have too many channels open. I need to close some
<mdke> bye
<LaserJock> mdke: free-as-in-beer is cost, right?
<LaserJock> I'm not a beer drinker so that always confuses me :/
<mdke> yeah, although I don't drink much myself
<Burgwork> yep
<mdke> i think what that page Burgwork referred to is saying is that you can have commercial software which is open source
<crimsun> LaserJock: think of it this way: usually there are strings attached when you buy a beer for $random person you find attractive
<mdke> which is of course a Good Thing
<LaserJock> crimsun: ok, never done that, but I can understand that :-)
<crimsun> sorry, I should clarify that to read "...when someone buys you a beer"
#ubuntu-doc 2006-05-21
<Madpilot> busy place here tonight... ;)
<robotgeek> Madpilot: BANG!
* robotgeek is annoyed with konqueror bugs
<Laser_away> Madpilot: rocking!
<crimsun> ok, for Edgy we need to trawl these man pages. I hate that most of them have few, if any, good examples.
<dsas> crimsun: A good place to start would be to just grep through them for "debian",  you'll get a load of skeletal man pages that are barely a page long. 
<Madpilot> the thought of having to tackle a distro's worth of man pages + our regular docs is a bit much ;)
<crimsun> dsas: yeah, I'm thinking of starting with the easier ones, like gst-launch-0.10
<crimsun> (heh, I nearly typed gst-launchpad-0.10)
<Madpilot> crimsun, might want to file launchpad bugs against the packages you want to change - that might make getting in touch with packagers & maintainers easier
<crimsun> Madpilot: well, once I find time to play with gst-launch, I'll flesh out the man page more and send it upstream
<Madpilot> gst-launch makes me think of taxes - we've got a "Goods & Services Tax" in Canada - what does it actually do? :)
<crimsun> it's a nice cli tool for using gstreamer
<crimsun> I use it for audio, mainly 
<jsgotangco> Madpilot: actually the man pages thing has been a long long goal before
<Madpilot> ah
<jsgotangco> there are a few manuals of apps in main that are "uncatalogued" in scrollkeeper
<Madpilot> don't forget that Edgy is going to be a very short cycle for release, though
<crimsun> yeah, but I won't be spending 90% of my time doing ALSA fixes =)
<jsgotangco> heh
<poningru> I had a question about java
<jjesse> morning everyone :)
<jsgotangco> hi
<jjesse> evening for you :)
<jsgotangco> goodnight
<mdke> crimsun: how does one change the default sound card for system sounds if there is more than one?
<crimsun> mdke: for GNOME, System> Preferences> Sound> Set default sound card's pull-down menu
<mdke> crimsun: I had my brother on the phone, he says that he tried that and it didn't remember the setting
<crimsun> mdke: yeah, that's a known bug
<mdke> crimsun: great, cheers
<crimsun> mdke: a workaround is to use asoundconf directly
<crimsun> mdke: since the Sound capplet calls asoundconf for its backend work
<mdke> crimsun: lovely, thanks.
<crimsun> mdke: ``asoundconf list''  returns the canonical string names; use ``asoundconf set-default-card CARD'' to set it
<trappist> <3 asoundconf list
<crimsun> trappist: ^5
<trappist> :)
<mdke> crimsun: gottit thanks
<dsas> LaserJock: ping
<LaserJock> dsas: yeah?
<dsas> You commited r3034 on behalf of someone, and it said "firefox has auto-update which gets you latest security updates". or something similar. Ubuntu ships with firefox updates turned off.
<LaserJock> hmm
<dsas> I mean, presumably it can be turned back on, but it isn't like that out of the box...
<LaserJock> ok, thanks for pointing that out
<dsas> no probs. I didn't know who Phil was to inform him directly.
<dsas> s/Phil/Pete
<LaserJock> cbx33 over in #edubuntu :-)
<LaserJock> hmm, but it does have an update manager. should I just take the "automatic" part out?
<dsas> uhm, yeah. The auto-updater *does work* for extensions, but not for firefox core without messing around with about:config (I think)
<LaserJock> so just getting rid of "automatic" should work
<dsas> I think that'll be fine yes. I was just imagining users getting mislead...
<LaserJock> yeah, we don't want to mislead users, but we do want to tell them the good parts :-)
<dsas> yeah, there's a line to be walked :)
<mdke> LaserJock: actually last time I checked they were actually disabled
<mdke> so updates are done through system updates
<mdke> maybe it's changed
<LaserJock> ah
<LaserJock> fine
<mdke> yeah "Check for updates" is greyed out
<LaserJock> naughty Ubuntu devs ;-)
<mdke> well, I think it didn't work
<dsas> Not unless you ran firefox as root
<mdke> ah
<dsas> which for all intents and purposes is the same as it not working. I'd forgot about that.
<LaserJock> ok, I took the whole sentence out
<mdke> just say "firefox sucks, install epiphany"
<dsas> mdke: +1
<LaserJock> lol, I'd be more inclined to reverse that  ;-)
<LaserJock> epiphany has never really appealed to me, probably because I use firefox so much on Windows
<Burgwork> LaserJock, I found it a bit of a switch and now I can;t stand fF
<LaserJock> cool, unfortunately my most used browser is currently Safari :/
<dsas> Firefox's menus scare me now.
<LaserJock> why would you use the menus?
<mdke> firefox's preferences look like they were designed by some kid
<mdke> a particularly untalented kid
<dsas> I don't very often, but they're all so long and full of stuff. And the prefs menus are going backwards.
<LaserJock> hmm
<Lysander-> Hey..would anybody be able to help me? (:
<Burgwork> Lysander-, this is a documentation team channel but what sort of help are you looking for>
<Lysander-> Oh, sorry. I thought it was a channel to discuss problems. (:
<Burgwork> Lysander-, that would be #ubuntu, or #ubuntu+1 for dapper
<Lysander-> Ah, okay. Thanks!
<Burgwork> np
<mdke> robotgeek: that problem with slow building seems to only happen on KDG
<mdke> oh no, with all the books under kubuntu
<mdke> ah, got im
#ubuntu-doc 2007-05-14
<Dan_> hello
<Dan_> i would like to join the documentation team
<kestrel> /clear
<towsonu2003> lol
<mdke> morning
<ubotu> New bug: #114632 in ubuntu-doc "Broken link in Appendix B of Installation Guide for 6.10" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/114632
<mdke> nixternal: do you have access to the kubuntu website?
<freezone> hi guys
<nixternal> mdke: no I don't
<nixternal> I can create a patch for the email and get it to Riddell though
<yaitanes> hello world
<yaitanes> en fait, je dois rentrer un cd d'installation dont le chemin est z:\cdrom, mais wine met ca en z:\\cdrom :s , comment je peux contourner ca?
<yaitanes> in fact, i need to enter a directory name like z:\cdrom but wine transform that in z:\\cdrom, how can i avoid this problem?
<yaitanes> c'est pas grave
#ubuntu-doc 2007-05-15
<Simon80> LaserJock: have you seen my contribution?
<LaserJock> yes, just saw it
<Simon80> cool
<LaserJock> I'm planning on reworking that section anyway
<LaserJock> I'll incorporate your stuff
<LaserJock> hopefully soonish
<Simon80> alright
<LaserJock> thanks for the work
<Simon80> welcome
<Simon80> hell, somewhere on the net there's info about ccache and pbuilder
<Simon80> should probably include that as well
<Simon80> http://web.glandium.org/blog/?p=55
<Simon80> very short, you don't even need to know anything about ccache, just add 4 lines to pbuilderrc, and it works
<LaserJock> cool
<Simon80> easy to document as well, incidentally
<Simon80> paste this in ~/.pbuilderrc, and your computer will make you dinner
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-doc.log
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-doc.log
<mdke> morning all
* shirish calling all alive ubuntu-documenters, need help
<mdke> hello
<mdke> go ahead
<shirish> hey mdke, cool
<shirish> ok hang on
<Madpilot> hmm?
<shirish> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/GnuPrivacyGuardHowto
<shirish> this is the doc. to which I have been contributing quite a bit
<shirish> recently came to know that gpg is aimed at the embedded systems & server market while gpg2 is aimed at the desktops
<shirish> now my issue is, I don't know how to make it right as I'm not a native speaker
<mdke> I think a separate section at the end would be appropriate, given that gnupg2 is not the default program with Ubuntu and is in universe
<mdke> for the language - don't worry about it; just email the list when you have finished and someone can tidy that up, if necessary
<shirish> mdke: as far as gnupg2 not being the default program have asked the same on the ubuntu-develop-discuss atm as the standing or possibility of it, but yes in the mean-time this needs to be done.
<mdke> ok
<shirish> There would also be a need to tell people how to make sure that the newer programs point to gpg2 instead of gpg
<mdke> right. if it gets complicated, consider doing a separate page - otherwise the existing page might start getting too advanced
<mdke> --> work
<ubotu> New bug: #86526 in ubuntu-docs (main) "Bad URIs for PDFs in documentation index" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/86526
#ubuntu-doc 2007-05-16
<jjesse> mdke: congrats on being a part of the community council
<Admiral_Chicago> nixternal: Jim and I are going to be meeting regularly to do doc work. i'll let you know when we work our schedules out so you can help us learn docbook
<Admiral_Chicago> unless you want to do something in person which i'm sure we could do
<nixternal> Admiral_Chicago: I figured we would do something in person when you get back into town
<Admiral_Chicago> nixternal: today actually, but not till late
<nixternal> roger
<Admiral_Chicago> okay let me know. i may be at CoD LUG but if I go to IL LoCo I may take Sunday to hang out with friends
<mdke> morning all
<willvdl> orning
<mdke> how are you willvdl ?
<willvdl> all good. lotsa work now that UDS is over
<mdke> :)
<ubotu> New bug: #114217 in ubuntu-docs (main) "Recommend a file converter for Windows in official Ubuntu documentation" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/114217
<kwah> hi, need  some clarification: wiki.ubuntu.com vs help.ubuntu.com - what idea is behind this separation?
<crimsun> help.ubuntu.com is supposed to be official.
<kwah> heh
<kwah> crimsun, thanks. but how does it correlate with community section in it (help.ubuntu.com)
<crimsun> the idea is that wiki will feed into help/community
<crimsun> the details beyond that are unknown to me, as I'm only involved in a rudimentary fashion
<kwah> crimsun, do to know people who might know for sure? ;)
<kwah> do you know.... I meant
<crimsun> you'll need to be patient (on the order of several hours).  Someone will come along and answer it.
<kwah> ok thanks. I'll do my best to get an answer.
#ubuntu-doc 2007-05-17
<ryanakca> good changes or no? https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SoftwarePackagingFormats?action=diff
<ryanakca> oops, fixed typo... main interest is the diff going from rev 17 to rev 18
<Derffred> Greetings all...
<Madpilot> evening
<mdke> kwah / crimsun: wiki.u.c is for coordinating ubuntu development and teams; help.u.c is for documentation
<mdke> see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ImproveWebsiteStructure for plans to try and decrease the confusion over that
<shirish> guys does anybody know of any page either in the wiki or at help.ubuntu.com/community or otherwise where people can find info. about xserver.xorg and the various ways to find stuff
<shirish> anybody other than ubotu , please respond ;-)
<jjesse> shirish: what exactly are you looking for?
<jjesse> shirish: were you succesful in searching the wiki?
<shirish> jjesse: nope, actually I was looking for info. regarding xserver-xorg as now there are many things in there which could help us trouble-shoot & find if Xwindows is not being displayed
<shirish> I have been reading a bit about xserver-xorg at lists.freedesktop.org
<jjesse> shirish: sorry you couldn't find any
<jjesse> shirish: you can always write the wiki pages when you find the ionofrmation you are missing
<shirish> jjesse: I just wanted to re-check if somebody has already put some info. somewhere & I didn't look properly
<shirish> it might also have a different name so I have no idea
<EverythingEvil> if I want to create some doc pages that arent on the wiki yet, how do i go about doing that?
<jjesse> EverythingEvil: just start editing the page
<EverythingEvil> it says immutable
<jjesse> what wiki page?  are you on help.ubuntu.com or wiki.ubuntu.com?
<EverythingEvil> wiki.ubuntu.com
<EverythingEvil> i want to make ContinuumOnFeisty
<EverythingEvil> eventually get it put on help.ubuntu.com
<jjesse> when i go to wiki.ubuntu.com/ContinuumOnFeisty it asks if i want to create a page
<EverythingEvil> ok i got it, it was those search pages
<EverythingEvil> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ContinuumOnFeisty
<Burgundavia> this has existed since hoary days
<Burgundavia> earlier, really
<robertj> Recap: Some wiki pages are getting very cluttered with out-dated information that will be useful to some people, particularly LTS users
<Burgundavia> are there specific pages you mean?
<robertj> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/VMware/Server for instance
<Burgundavia> in general if the differences are slight, seperate sections the same page are ok
<Burgundavia> if changes are large, make a subpage
<Burgundavia> basically, we need better methods of communication around the help wiki
<robertj> Burgundavia: I was thinking perhaps a MoinMoin plugin to redirect based on browser version might be helpful
<Burgundavia> that would require seperate pages for everything
<robertj> Burgundavia: Yes, or some worse kind of markup
<Burgundavia> hmm
<Burgundavia> I haven't seen anything that requires such a technical measure
<Burgundavia> I would rather work on the communication side
<robertj> Burgundavia: suggestions?
<Burgundavia> help communicate with existing editors on the help wiki on the existing standards
<Burgundavia> fix up those standards
<robertj> are there any written standards?
<Burgundavia> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiGuide
<Burgundavia> those need work
<Burgundavia> please add/change/disuss as you need
<robertj> Burgundavia: btw, I just installed moin locally to poke at a few things to see what might be possible and noticed the GUI editor is actually pretty nice, is that new or is it disabled on w.u.o?
<Burgundavia> I think we need a newer version of moin
<Burgundavia> there is an issue with that, something to do with launchpad auth
<ryanakca> nixternal: since you seemed to be subscribed to it, mind looking at the changes (17 to 18) I made on https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SoftwarePackagingFormats ? Good, bad, what do I change, etc
<Burgundavia> ryanakca: good except for the debian/ubuntu change
<Burgundavia> derivative is a very explicit word that implies understanding about how distros derive off each other
#ubuntu-doc 2007-05-18
<willvdl> mdke, you th contact for the Italian LoCo?
#ubuntu-doc 2007-05-19
<Simon80> where can I find this month's forum meeting log? I'm curious about how one can defend killing dpkg..
<Simon80> err, wrong channel, sorry :)
<mdke> mpt: no
<mpt> darn
<Lhademmor> Hi people. Is it just me, or does some parts of the wiki seem a little obsolete?
<kestrel> Lhademmor: I looked at bug 114217 and think the documentation is fine for "preparing to switch"
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 114217 in ubuntu-docs "Recommend a file converter for Windows in official Ubuntu documentation" [Undecided,Needs info]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/114217
<kestrel> I didn't reject it - changed to needs more info.
<ubotu> New bug: #115625 in ubuntu-docs (main) "Grammar mistakes in ubuntu switching guide" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/115625
<Lhademmor> kestrel: Just forget it, really... It's not that important
<kestrel> Lhademmor: OK, I'll reject the bug report
<Lhademmor> kestrel: Cool
<Lhademmor> As reason just say that I pulled it or something, so I don't feel dumb :P
<kestrel> Lhademmor: your report does bring up that we should add to the musicvideophotos.xml information about audio file format conversion
<Lhademmor> kestrel: Nice :)
<Lhademmor> WMA f.ex?
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-doc.log
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#ubuntu-doc 2007-05-20
<mdke> hiya Burgundavia
<nixternal> hola mdke!
<mdke> hiya nixternal , how are you doing?
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-doc.log
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-doc.log
<nixternal> sittin' at a LUG event working on a couple of websites...waitint to leave so I can go mow the lawn ;(
<mdke> :)
<go1> Hi, I am new. How does this work?
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-doc.log
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#ubuntu-doc 2008-05-12
<ikonia> topic
<ikonia> I'm trying to do a bullet list and a numbered list in the wiki
<ikonia> I'm using 1*; as suggested by the help pages, but that doesn't appear to be the correct syntax
<ikonia> what is the correct lists for numbered/bullet syntax
<ikonia> sorry, correct synatax that should rad
<ikonia> read
<mdke> ikonia: i don't understand the question - you want numbers and bullets together in the same list?
<mdke> if so, this works:
<mdke>  1. test
<mdke>   * test
<mdke>   * test
<mdke>  1. test
<jjesse_> test
<mdke> you need a space before your "1." in each case.
<ikonia> mdke: thank you, I'll try that now, i think I may have missunderstood the guide
<ikonia> mdke: I wanted to lists, 1 was a numbered list, theother was a bullet
<mdke> ikonia: the same principle should apply. if you still haven't got it, maybe show me the page and I'll see if it can be fixed
<ikonia> alredy got it
<mdke> ok
<ikonia> after you showed me the number list, I worked out how I'd miss-understood it
<ikonia> applied it to the bullet, works fine
<ikonia> thank you for that
<mdke> np
<ikonia> I'd completly miss-understood the example
<vadi2> Is it possible to create an apt: link in the wiki?
<dsas> vadi2: Try the preview.
<dsas> vadi2: I think there is a bug for it though
<dsas> Not sure if it's for w.u.c or h.u.c
<vadi2> I don't know the proper syntax for it
<vadi2> At least, syntax for html ones isn't working
<dsas> apt:packagename
<dsas> or [[apt:packagename Install packagename]] I think.
<vadi2> Not workin'
#ubuntu-doc 2008-05-13
<flaccid> is the doc team/ubuntu going to release any more books like official ubuntu book?
<nixternal> yes
<nixternal> :)
<nixternal> next month, or end of this month
<flaccid> ah ok, what release does it cover. is this an updated official ubuntu book?
<nixternal> 8.04
<nixternal> yes, updated official ubuntu book
<nixternal> make sure you read the Edubuntu chapter, I just worked on that one for this release :)
<nixternal> and the Kubuntu chapter is all jjesse's fault
<flaccid> nice one nix
<flaccid> i guess i'll have to wait for release. how much kde4 is covered if at all?
<flaccid> ok cool.... is there a plan to update that book again for next release or something? i guess im saying its a bit premature for kde4
<nixternal> 1 whole chapter of KDE 4
<nixternal> ya, we will update again for either 8.10 or 9.04
<flaccid> cool, looks like i'll be competing unless someone else releases a book for us to compete with which is a good thing anyway
<flaccid> mine *may* be the first kubuntu only/centric book out there
<nixternal> oh man I am envious of that one!
<nixternal> well now that you are doing it, I will not go for it then :)  you just freed up my future a bit
<flaccid> well as i mentioned to you recently, i offered it to the doc project in the past but you were happy with the 'topic-based system'..
<nixternal> oh ya....that's right
<flaccid> :p
<nixternal> ya, we are stuck with topic based for system documentation
<nixternal> but it is needed for a printed document no doubt
<flaccid> it was either do this book or one on web dev. this one seemed more appropriate
<flaccid> not sure how you are stuck with it but ok :)
<nixternal> and probably easier considering how much web dev is going to change again over the next couple of years with the new css and html crap that google is infecting
<nixternal> flaccid: freedesktop.org :)
<nixternal> that's how...we are working to share stuff back and forth with the other desktops now
<flaccid> that prevents you from creating such a doc, i don't see how..
<nixternal> and seeing as system documentation is much better in a topic based setting, it only makes sense to extend it one to the Linux desktop as well
<flaccid> but yeah in web dev, its a similar case - not really any/many recent books that are web standards, its pathetic
<nixternal> it doesn't prevent us, we just don't have the people to maintain a printed a document like it
<flaccid> yeah this is true - what we established before
<flaccid> i mean i don't even know what 'topic based' means. everything is topic based, is it not?
<nixternal> well, think of the windows help system or the apple help system
<flaccid> which nobody uses :p
<nixternal> actually, I use the windows one when I am on a windows box because I am lost
<nixternal> and the Windows help system was the only thing that score higher than a 2 on the vista usability tests :)
<flaccid> interesting, so vista help, actually helps you reckon?
<nixternal> and it helps you wreck it :)
<flaccid> my objection is always about how you have to know the topic to look for instead of being lead to it..
<nixternal> for instance, with the old kubuntu documentation, everything was in a single book, so the topics weren't broken down into pieces, making it harder to locate something
<flaccid> well in my opinion its about a logical well-abstracted TOC
<nixternal> with the topic based help that we switched to, everything is broken down into a topic, which you can/will eventually be able to do with the kio help slave is 'help://kubuntu/networking
<flaccid> this is what i'm designing with my book
<flaccid> hmm well i like to set a universe of discourse too
<nixternal> oh well, I need to head to bed...I have AT&T knocking on my door in about 6 hours :)
<nixternal> g'nite
<flaccid> ok mate thanks for the chat again, has helped me understand where things are at
<flaccid> gnight
<mdke> morning ll
<mdke> *all
<ikonia> is it possible to insert an image into a wiki page, I can't see any topics that suggest it is
<bimberi> ikonia: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiGuide/Screenshots  from "To upload an image:"
<ikonia> ahh thank you
<ikonia> screenshot was the keyword
<Syntux> any GUI replacement to the missing system -> preferences -> Hardware information ? this question been circulating around forums, mailing lists and launchpad answers
#ubuntu-doc 2008-05-14
<barbedsaber> I was wondering, is this documentation thing really formal? Like, when I send an email to ubuntu-doc@lists.ubuntu.com , do I send a formal email, or a casual one?
<miickee> Ok, I need help getting flash sound to work in firefox on Ubuntu 8.04
<Konam> hi, I'm finding some translation bugs on the spanish version of the server guide 8.04, where can I give notice of this bugs?
<jjesse> launchpad is great for reporting bugs
#ubuntu-doc 2008-05-15
<ikonia> I've just updated my wiki page to contain a little more current detail and a better formatting. All the headings sections have come out fine, bar one section, I have a = heading = then a == sub heading == then 3 === sub headings === the sub headings are not displaying correctly, in that they display as === heading 3 ===
<ikonia> Scratch that, it's working now
<ikonia> save conflict
#ubuntu-doc 2008-05-16
<l3on> mdke: are you there?
<mdke> l3on: (In case I'm not around at the moment, please provide a bit of information about what you want and I will respond when I get back)
<jjesse> good morning, trying to do a checkout of the interprid branch using a fresh install of bzr on my windows box and receiving the following error
<jjesse> bzr: ERROR: Repository KnitPackRepository('file:///C:/Users/Jonathan/Documents/U
<jjesse> buntu/kubuntu-intrepid/.bzr/repository/') is not compatible with repository Remo
<jjesse> teRepository(bzr+ssh://jjesse@bazaar.launchpad.net/%7Eubuntu-core-doc/ubuntu-doc
<jjesse> any idea
<jjesse> especially why it would be look at edubuntu-core?
<DrGash> Hi, i'd like to make an edit to the Santa Rosa Macbook Pro section of the Community docs.  Is there anyone I need to run the changes by before I start altering the page?
<nickellery> DrGash, nope, you can go right ahead and edit it
<DrGash> OK, great, thanks.
#ubuntu-doc 2008-05-17
<flaccid> hey nixternal when you say the new edition of official ubuntu book was being released?
<alefteris> the edubuntu documents have been misplaced in the web server
<alefteris> should be http://doc.ubuntu.com/edubuntu/ but are now like http://doc.ubuntu.com/edubuntu/edubuntu/
<alefteris> because of that, the links from http://doc.ubuntu.com are broken
<dsas> alefteris: Could you file that as a bug please. It's only the draft documents so it's not urgent.
<alefteris> dsas, sure
<alefteris> dsas, i have also found some version number that are wrong in the intrepid branch, should i file them as bugs or are those branches are not ready yet?
<Eche|on> hi, anyone here who can change some parts on https://help.ubuntu.com/community/I2P ?
<Eche|on> the URL is old far long outdated
<Eche|on> please change the url from i2p.net to i2p2.de
<Eche|on> no one has access to https://help.ubuntu.com/community/I2P to change?
#ubuntu-doc 2008-05-18
<popey> mdke: bug 229320 apparently you can edit immutable pages on the wiki?
<popey> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/229320 "Missing hashes to Xubuntu"
#ubuntu-doc 2009-05-11
<mfitzhugh> Hey crew - Could anyone help me troubleshoot a small validation error involving an unknown ID? I'd estimate it's 5-10 minutes work.
<mfitzhugh> Here's the problem - http://paste.ubuntu.com/169858/
<agy> i would guess that "video-realplayer" needs to be 'video-realplayer' - but i have no experience with this
<agy> mfitzhugh: ^--
<mfitzhugh> Thanks for the idea, agy! I just tried that out. It wasn't the answer, but I appreciate the guess!
<mfitzhugh> I think it has something to do with the ID "video-realplayer" being in a different file, but who knows...
<nhandler_> DougieRichardson: Any chance you could upload that merge you approved over the weekend?
<DougieRichardson> nhandler_:Not at a Linux box just now
<nhandler_> Ok, no problem DougieRichardson
#ubuntu-doc 2009-05-12
<mdke> nhandler: merged with a couple of comments, please see the merge proposal page
<mdke> nhandler: by the way, aside from those small comments, it's excellent work, thanks
<mdke> nhandler: (should have said that on the merge report but forgot)
<nhandler> mdke: Thanks for uploading it. Should I prepare a new patch that takes care of moving it?
<rufong> greetings doc team
<mdke> nhandler: sure, if you like
<alefteris> in an .xsl i have the following line of code: <script type="text/javascript" src="http://www.google.com/coop/cse/brand?form=cse-search-box&lang=el"></script>. xsltproc complains with "parser error : EntityRef: expecting ';'". Any ideas?
<alefteris> doesn't seem to like the & symbol in the script url
#ubuntu-doc 2009-05-13
<ds305> Is there an offline editor for editing/creating wiki pages?
<nhasian> hey you beat me to the question
<ds305> Ok, it's nhasian's question.  I just typed faster...
<nhandler_> ds305: There is editmoin
<nhasian> i created a brand new How-To that i want to add to help.ubuntu.com but i really dont want to have to do all the wiki editing by hand
<ds305> ty nhandler. looking to see if it's in the repos.
<ds305> Yes, in synaptic. Thanks.
<nhandler_> You're welcome ds305. Just make sure your environment variables are correctly set so that it uses the correct editor
<ds305> I'm dl'ing it now.
<nhasian> me too
<ds305> I'm reading the man page but I'll have to spend some time tomorrow figuring it out.
<nhandler_> ds305: It can be a little confusing at first when you are getting it configured. After that, it is really easy to use.
<ds305> nhandler_: can you view the page or only see the code?
<duanedesign> nhandler_: have you,, or anyone you know, ever succesfully made a DocBook file from a wiki page?
<duanedesign> more specifically from the ubuntu wiki
<nhandler> duanedesign: There are tools that can go from moinmoin -> docbook, but afaik, none of them work too well. There is a discussion on the mailing list about this
<nhandler> ds305: You can only edit the source
<ds305> Ok, I'll play with it tomorrow.  I've got a lot of the formatting down - except for tables.
<nixternal> editmoin
<nhandler> That is what I just suggested nixternal ;)
<nixternal> offline editor for moinmoin
<nixternal> your name is to close to nhasian's so I didn't see it
 * nixternal goes back to work
<nhasian> i think it will just be faster to edit the wiki page online than trying to figure out how to get editmoin to use my openID to edit the page :-/
<nhandler> nhasian: It doesn't use OpenID. You enter your session id one time in a configuration file. After that, it is very easy to edit the pages. It also works for any moinmoin wiki, so that means it will work on both wiki.ubuntu.com and help.ubuntu.com
<nhasian> nhandler, cool thanks
<nhasian> alright check it out guys: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/NX_Web_Companion
<nhasian> I'm not sure i put it in the right area though...
<orange-wedge> Prerequisits
<orange-wedge> ?
<Madpilot> orange-wedge, ?
<nixternal> green-wedge! what's up Madpilot
<Madpilot> not much. thinking I should actually get up to speed on things docteam sometime...
<Madpilot> bashing away at flight training is leaving me with much spare time. Might as well do something useful with it.
<orange-wedge> maybe i'm just a picky speller
<nixternal> sounds fun
<rufong> ne1 'live? hehe
<mdke> nhandler: where does one get the session id for use with editmoin? I couldn't figure it out from the man page
<nhandler> mdke: In Firefox, right click and go to 'Page Info'. Then go to the 'Security' tab and click on 'View Cookies'. You can then search for 'wiki.ubuntu.com' or 'help.ubuntu.com' (they have different Session IDs). You want to click on the cookie that has a name of 'MOIN_SESSION'
#ubuntu-doc 2009-05-14
<mdke> nhandler: thanks!
#ubuntu-doc 2009-05-15
<evanrmurphy> Hi all, quick question: does the Ubuntu Documentation Team concern itself with all the documentation for Ubuntu, or just some of it?
<cody-somerville> Why do people want to change the template names?
<cody-somerville> It allows us to share translations where the string is the same.
<Ow1> hi cody-somerville
<cody-somerville> hi
<Ow1> it is confusing for translators to see 3 templates having the same name
<Ow1> and from that list they can not tell which template is for ubuntu and xubuntu
<Ow1> as far as I know the suggestions are now deactivated in Rosetta
<Ow1> template name is the only criteria for sharing strings?
<Ow1> When the suggestions were enabled in Rosetta I remeber they were globaly available
<Ow1> and for example while translating "transmission" I would also get suggestion from GTK and KDE
<cody-somerville> why would they want to see if it is for Ubuntu or Xubuntu?
<cody-somerville> Interesting, I thought it was based on template name
<cody-somerville> I'll get clarification from the launchpad team
<Ow1> well, because some people only want to translate Ubuntu
<Ow1> or Kubuntu or Xubuntu
<Ow1> maybe template name will be used in the "message sharing" feature, that is yet to come
<cody-somerville> ...
<Ow1> cody-somerville: are the xubuntu-docs translations included in xubuntu-docs package ?
<Ow1> or how do we distribute the translations for xubuntu-docs
<Ow1> ?
<azajac> A kind user translated this page into Chinese alongside the English version:
<azajac> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/LiveCDCustomizationFromScratch
<azajac> But I believe the correct procedure is to create a separate page on the appropriate local wiki (http://www.ubuntu.com/support/local).
<azajac> Can someone here revert it?
<Rocket2DMn> lol
<Rocket2DMn> thanks azajac , ill take care of it
<azajac> Rocket2DMn:  Thanks!
<Rocket2DMn> its done
<Rocket2DMn> hey mdke , i posted a patch for bug 281702 over a month ago, but it doesn't look like anything has moved forward with it.  Has it falled off the radar for a bit or are we just waiting for something before it is reviewed/committed?
<ubot4> Launchpad bug 281702 in ubuntu-docs "Permissions: read-only gives write access to shared directory" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/281702
#ubuntu-doc 2009-05-16
<rufong> g'day
<rufong> heya duanedesign
<nhandler> Thanks for uploading the patch mdke
<Kangarooo> hello I think I found bug in https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SynergyHowto#Server%20Autostart%20at%20login%20screen,%20GDM
<Kangarooo> I followed that and it didn't work
<Kangarooo> I have quick synergy installed and then I folowed that link - Server Autostart at login screen, GDM    I have ubuntu as server and xubuntu as client so what else could be wrong then tutorial if at start it mentions quicksynergy and I need the end- autostarting
<Kangarooo> as im not sure what kind of bug it is and where to report I haven't reported it yet
#ubuntu-doc 2009-05-17
<rufong> jjesse: i just received thy email, willdo. ty for the welcome
<jjesse> rufong: your welcome, let me know how i can help
<rufong> is the link to the playbook down. different webpages' links just dump me to the launchpad welcome
<mdke> nhandler: np, thanks for preparing it
<Madpilot> mdke, nice post to the Ubuntu One bugreport - more diplomatic about Mark missing the point of the bug than some would have been...
<mdke> Madpilot: thanks. I think the problem is that quite a few posts so far have tended to confuse the issues a bit
<Madpilot> ya
<Madpilot> there's two seperate bug reports, one for the name and one for the license (or lack thereof) but lots of comments on both crisscrossing
<mdke> Madpilot: but, I suspect that whether the Ubuntu One site will actually "pollute" the Ubuntu community's reputation in the way that I'm suggesting is largely a question of pure opinion at this stage, so I don't know whether others on the CC will agree with me
<Madpilot> the next meeting should be interesting, anyway
<Madpilot> is it still tuesday 1100Z?
<mdke> tuesday after next, I think
<mdke> I won't be able to make it
<Madpilot> 1100Z is 0400 local...
<Madpilot> I usually have Tuesday mornings off, but that's still an ugly, ugly time of day (night?)
<mdke> heh
<mdke> Madpilot: thanks for pointing out the other bug report, I hadn't seen the discussion there.
<Madpilot> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/375272
<ubot4> Launchpad bug 375272 in ubunet "Server software is closed source" [Undecided,Won't fix]
<Madpilot> that's the licensing one
<mdke> some interesting interventions there
<Madpilot> not sure who Elliot Murphy is, but he really wants that bug to just go away
<mdke> I have a certain amount of sympathy with him
<Madpilot> assume he's one of the U1 devs
<mdke> he's the project leader
<mdke> previously of Launchpad
<mdke> but unfortunately his appeal not to use bug reports for the discussion has been rather compromised by Mark's comment on the other bug
<mdke> I rather took that as an open invitation to use the bug report for the discussion ;)
<mdke> I'd originally prepared my comment as a blog post :(
<Madpilot> despite my rather ranty blogpost, I had to laugh when Alan Pope's latest hit Planet U
<mdke> heh
 * bencrisford_ is in the mood for some documentation :D
<mdke> bencrisford_: cool!
<bencrisford_> :D :P
<bencrisford_> mdke: do more people view the official documentation than the community docs?
<mdke> bencrisford_: probably, we don't know for sure
<bencrisford_> its just i think i would view the official if i wanted help, but i guess the community gets alot of hits from search engines
<mdke> sure
<bencrisford_> mdke: does the '##' mean like a comment?  or something that needs to be added?
<mdke> in the wiki ## at the start of a line means that the line won't appear on the page, so it's a comment
<bencrisford_> ah ok
<bencrisford_> because in the glossary theres alot of them
<bencrisford_> where there is an incomplete line
<bencrisford_> would it be useful for me to complete a few?
<mdke> yes, I think it would
<bencrisford_> ok, ill get cracking with that then :)
<mdke> cool, thanks
<bencrisford___> I added a few things to the glossary
<bencrisford___> ill do a few a day for the next few weeks
<bencrisford___> and it'll grow and grow and grow hopefully :D
#ubuntu-doc 2010-05-18
<ZachK_> mdke: ping
<mdke> ZachK_: (In case I'm not around at the moment, please provide a bit of information about what you want and I will respond when I get back)
<mdke> ZachK_: hey - I'm afraid I need to leave for work now, can we discuss by email?
 * mdke afk
#ubuntu-doc 2010-05-19
<dhillon-v10> nixternal: hi :) long time no see what's up
<dhillon-v10> starcraftman: hi :)
<starcraftman> hi dhillon-v10
<dhillon-v10> starcraftman: long time no see :) how's it going, what have you guys been working on for like the past 2 months??
<dhillon-v10> starcraftman: I had exams over that period of time so I couldn't do much :)
<starcraftman> dhillon-v10: I been busy, atm, just getting ready for summer documentation run.
<starcraftman> dhillon-v10: I'm still at school over summer lol, no breaks for the weary uni students.
<dhillon-v10> starcraftman: ahh, in that case, I'll ttly :)
<starcraftman> dhillon-v10: oh I'm not leaving, just busy. Taking 4 classes over summer semester.
#ubuntu-doc 2010-05-21
<jo-erlend> Won't ubuntu server guide be available as pdf anymore, or is it just not done yet?
<Rocket2DMn> jjesse, you are probably aware of this by now, but some spam came from your email account
<jjesse> Rocket2DMn yup i know
<jjesse> no idea what happened, but reset my passwords on all my acocounts, etc
<Rocket2DMn> ok, i wonder if we can get the bug posts removed from LP
<Rocket2DMn> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-docs/+bug/312926/comments/4
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 312926 in ubuntu-docs "Bad URL in add-applications documentation (heat: 2)" [Undecided,Invalid]
<Rocket2DMn> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/kubuntu-docs/+bug/460352/comments/11
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 460352 in kubuntu-docs (Ubuntu) (and 1 other project) "Please update kubuntu-docs translation templates in Launchpad (affects: 2) (dups: 1) (heat: 16)" [Undecided,Fix released]
<jjesse> nice
<Rocket2DMn> those are the two that I got, could be more
<jjesse> i did send an email to them already
<Rocket2DMn> ok, so you did alert the LP team to remove them already then?
<jjesse> yup
<Rocket2DMn> groovy, thanks
#ubuntu-doc 2011-05-16
<jbicha> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/FocusGroups/Docs/SoD2011
<UndiFineD> yes jbicha
<jbicha> I hadn't seen that before
<UndiFineD> I will have a talk about it during tomorrows meeting
<UndiFineD> 21:00 UTC
<j1mc> hi all
<UndiFineD> he
<j1mc> jbicha: howdy
<jbicha> hi
<j1mc> hey UndiFineD
<j1mc> i just heard about that, too
<UndiFineD> lol, this is its 4th year
<j1mc> jbicha: do you want to send a note to the ML about it?
<jbicha> I don't know anything about it, maybe UndiFined could :-)
<j1mc> UndiFineD: do you want to send a note to the ML about it?
<j1mc> letting people know about the summer of documentation?
<andrejz> hello, i noticed antoter error in natty documentation
<UndiFineD> j1mc, sure
<j1mc> hi andrejz
<UndiFineD> mind if I do that after the meeting ? seems easier that way
<MrChrisDruif> In #ubuntu-meeting
<andrejz> there is a string - Press <keyseq><key>Ctrl</key><key>Alt</key><key>Shift</key><key> â</key></keyseq> to move the window to the workspace to the right of the current workspace.
<andrejz> shouldn't it be LEFT, instead of RIGHT
<UndiFineD> andrejz, yes
<andrejz> and the other way around for the other string
<MrChrisDruif> UndiFineD; Maybe send a email about the meeting on the ML?
<j1mc> andrejz: what is the name of the file?
<MrChrisDruif> People who want to join can
<UndiFineD> although, when holding shift, it creates a mini map of your desktops
<andrejz> j1mc, here it is
<andrejz> https://translations.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/natty/+source/gnome-user-docs/+pots/gnome-user-docs-gnome-help
<andrejz> is there someone who can fix it on IRC right now or should i report a bug?
<j1mc> andrejz: it would be nice if we knew the name of the file that contained the string
<jbicha> andrejz: I can fix it since I caused it
<jbicha> I never was very good at telling left and right apart :-)
<jbicha> j/k
<j1mc> :)
<andrejz> j1mc it's package named gnome-user-docs-gnome-help
<andrejz> the .pot file
<jbicha> j1mc: it's shell-workspaces-movewindow by the way, & you have to use crazy Unicode to get the pretty arrows
<j1mc> jbicha: thanks.
<jbicha> oh, I don't do the pot part, I think mdke usually does
<j1mc> andrejz: that's what i wsa needing to know... the file name. not just the package name.
<andrejz> oh, sorry. how can i find that out, i am just translating offline in poedit
<j1mc> jbicha: hm... i wonder if updating the pot files would cause problems?
<j1mc> you're right that mdke normally does that
<andrejz> @jbicha: there is another bug i noticed - https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gnome-user-docs/+bug/782147
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 782147 in gnome-user-docs "Wrong description how to decrease text size in .pot file" [Undecided,New]
<jbicha> j1mc: yeah, I'm happy to have him do it but the procedure to generate it should be documented
<j1mc> yeah
<UndiFineD> there we go: meeting announced with agenda
<jbicha> andrejz: thanks for reporting that
<andrejz> you're welcome
<UndiFineD> j1mc, jbicha my messages are always awaiting approval
<jbicha> UndiFineD: are you subscribed to the mailing list?
<UndiFineD> I think I am
<j1mc> UndiFineD: what is email address you are sending to?
<j1mc> UndiFineD: make sure you join the ML here: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-doc
<j1mc> then your posts won't be moderated
<UndiFineD> ah no .. I am still awaiting to join ...
<j1mc> UndiFineD: if you join that mailing list you can send messages to the mailing list. :)
<j1mc> that is what you need to do... it isn't related to a team.
<j1mc> UndiFineD: join the Ubuntu Documentation Contributors team at https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-doc-contributors
<UndiFineD> yeah, should be better from now on
<andrejz> that's true, i am on ubuntu-doc mailing list and I just translate (and report bugs in the docs occasionally)
<j1mc> UndiFineD: is the meeting tomorrow for the docs team itself, or is it a beginners team meeting that the docs team is invited to?
<MrChrisDruif> j1mc; second
<MrChrisDruif> Or latter
<MrChrisDruif> It's the Beginners Team Wiki FG meeting where the doc team is invited to
<j1mc> ah, ok
<j1mc> MrChrisDruif: cool
<MrChrisDruif> I want to suggest more regular meetings
<UndiFineD> j1mc, it is a meeting for the UBT wiki focusgroup
<UndiFineD> but I surely welcome the doc team input
#ubuntu-doc 2011-05-17
<mdke> j1mc: around?
<j1mc> mdke: hey
<mdke> heya!
<mdke> how's the jetlag?
<j1mc> i'm loving it.  it doesn't help that i slept for a good part of the afternoon today.
<mdke> hah
<mdke> I just wanted to catch up on where we are with natty docs
<j1mc> sure
<j1mc> start with natty docs, i guess
<mdke> I think we said that we would have a hard freeze around 15 May
<mdke> are we at the stage where we can do that?
<j1mc> i can give a read through, but i think we went through bug reports pretty quickly.
<mdke> There are still a few stubs and such around
<j1mc> i would think that we could have a hard freeze. there are some bugs in my 'bugs' folder, but i think some of them are kubuntu-related
<mdke> perhaps we should move them to stub pages and then have the freeze
<j1mc> i haven't had a chance to go through them, but can do so in a day or so
<mdke> do you think it is worth having a bit more time on those?
<mdke> We can be relaxed about when we freeze
<j1mc> i'll have to take a look and see what kind of topics they are. are they page.stub files?
<mdke> no
<mdke> net-email.page
<mdke> net-problem.page
<mdke> net-security.page
<mdke> net-wired.page
<mdke> unity-launcher.page
<j1mc> or just listed as "stub' for their status?
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> I think I marked the net ones as stubs
<j1mc> ok - we can review those. perhaps then freeze?
<mdke> that sounds good to me.
<j1mc> me, too.
<mdke> the spanish translators finished everything!
<mdke> quite impressive...
<j1mc> that is amazing
<j1mc> they were really quick on translating the gnome docs, too.
<j1mc> always lots of updates from them
<mdke> yeah, they had that head start
<mdke> about half the strings or so came from upstream in the end I think
<j1mc> nice!
<mdke> ok, I'll send an email along those lines, thanks
<mdke> UDS was fun?
<j1mc> yeah - do you have an extra minute or two?
<mdke> yep
<j1mc> the strategy session was helpful, and i'm putting together a strategy document.
<j1mc> i'll have a draft ready within the week (i think) for the team to review
<j1mc> and for 11.10... people gave us some good input there, too. but we can narrow our focus some to see what we can really get done for this cycle.
<j1mc> be reasonable with ourselves.
<mdke> yes, I agree completely
<j1mc> i'm not sure what to do about that docs platform. it seems neat, but there wouldn't be much support from upstream.
<j1mc> (neither kde or gnome)
<j1mc> i would like to evaluate it, if only as a way of being considerate to the people who came out to demo it.
<j1mc> it is open source stuff, so ... just helping out another open source docs team
<j1mc> i'm going to see if i can get accounts for people.  does that seem reasonable?
<mdke> yes, I think that's the right approach
<mdke> it's difficult for us if there is no upstream buy-in, because arguably it's not for us to drive new technologies, but perhaps if it was spectacularly useful it might be something we should look at
<j1mc> ok - thanks for at least that support. i feel/felt like i was going out on a bit of a limb, but it was worth looking at given what i knew about it.
<j1mc> so... i'll be getting that stuff out soon, too.
<mdke> it's definitely worth looking at these things I think
<mdke> so just call a meeting whenever you're ready with the strategy document, I guess
<j1mc> and i want to start a team blog!  :)  did you know there was an 'ubuntu tour' project that had translations??
<j1mc> i had no idea.
<mdke> I've seen some irc posts about it
<j1mc> cool... i will (re: the team meeting)
<mdke> is ubuntu tour good?
<j1mc> i'm not sure. it has some good ideas, i guess, but i think it was started before we worked on our new docs. before we had our own tour in the intro sections.
<j1mc> so hopefully raising our profile a little bit will help to get a bit more attention and encourage people to work with us rather than starting new docs-related projects.
<j1mc> it isn't just writers doing more work, but also translators.
<j1mc> anyway, that's all for now...
<j1mc> i suppose you're off to work?
<mdke> shortly yeah
<mdke> I'm a bit behind today :)
<j1mc> ah, ok.
<j1mc> i was drafting a uds-related blog post that will cover a few more things
<j1mc> but that's most of it
<j1mc> thanks for saying 'hey'
<mdke> sounds like it was worthwhile
<mdke> did you get any input from the design people about unity terminology?
<j1mc> a bit... i actually need to follow-up with them a bit. i didn't get quite as much input from design folks as i had hoped, but some were helpful.
<j1mc> pippa from the design team used to be a technical writer, so i think she'll be a good resource from their group
<mdke> oh cool
<j1mc> and she pointed me to rober (or john?) lee, too, but i didn't get to talk to him.
<mdke> ok
<mdke> well it sounds like you got a lot done anyway
<j1mc> i tried.  :)
<mdke> it was really good to have some docs sessions at uds for a change :)
<j1mc> :)
<mdke> that in itself raises the profile
<mdke> and the team blog idea is a good one
<mdke> I have a dreamhost account which has a "one click" wordpress setup if you need it
<j1mc> cool
<j1mc> well, i think i'm going to try and catch a few Zzz's
<mdke> alright, sleep well
<j1mc> thanks. later, mdke
<UndiFineD> mdke, did you catch barrydrake 's guide to natty ?
<mdke> UndiFineD: no
<UndiFineD> good morning :)
<UndiFineD> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuAdverts/Research?action=AttachFile&do=view&target=simple_guide_natty_unity.pdf
<UndiFineD> mdke, also poke alanbell about an accessibility chapter he wrote
<mdke> UndiFineD: that's helpful, we are a bit short on accessibility material
<MrChrisDruif> UBT Wiki FG meeting just started. Anyone who wants to join #ubuntu-meeting is welcome
#ubuntu-doc 2011-05-18
<YokoZar> Can I get permission to delete pages?  I'm taking Jorge's pledge to remove cruft at UDS to heart.
<YokoZar> (community docs pages)
<YokoZar> Nevermind I'll just tag them :)
#ubuntu-doc 2011-05-19
<j1mc> is anyone around that can take a look at some xslt with me? http://pastebin.ca/2064006
<j1mc> the issue is with the template match="row"
<j1mc> i want to get the title, but not every row has a title
<j1mc> so how can i not produce any output if there's no title?
<andrejz> hello! i am a translator and would like to know how can i test translations of natty docs?
<mdke> andrejz: hi. Have a look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Translation and particularly the section "Instructions for gnome-user-docs". Then ask me questions if you don't manage to make it work
<mdke> andrejz: but I won't be around on irc much so you may have to use email
<andrejz> ok
<andrejz> mdke, when i try to do  bzr checkout --lightweight lp:ubuntu-doc/natty ubuntu-docs-natty i get
<andrejz> bzr: ERROR: Permission denied: "Cannot create 'bzr'. Only Bazaar branches are allowed."
#ubuntu-doc 2011-05-20
<j1mc> hi all
<Captainkrtek> hey j1
<Captainkrtek> j1mc, ^
<Captainkrtek> tab autocomplete fail
<j1mc> hi Captainkrtek
<Captainkrtek> hola
<j1mc> howdy
<Captainkrtek> working on anythin?
<j1mc> it's almost midnight here, so not rightnow
<j1mc> i did some work today, though. nothing too big
<Captainkrtek> on what project?
<j1mc> docs - i reviewed some pages and reviewed some bugs. there's an email on the list about it.
<j1mc> mdke is going to propose a stable release update (SRU) to get some fixes out, and now we're in a 'hard freeze' on the natty branch.
<j1mc> that means we're all systems go on the oneiric branch. :)
<Captainkrtek> very cool
<j1mc> Captainkrtek: where are you from, if you don't mind me asking
<Captainkrtek> so the last changes we all made to natty are going to be in an update soon? :)
<Captainkrtek> Seattle, WA, USA
<j1mc> ah, cool. i have a friend who lives in Ballard (?) I think that's the neighborhood
<j1mc> are you in school or working or ...
<Captainkrtek> yeah
<Captainkrtek> school and working
<Captainkrtek> Im a device testing project lead for samsung
<Captainkrtek> and a systems administrator
<j1mc> ah, ok - cool
<Captainkrtek> sys admin part time
<Captainkrtek> hope to see my name soon in the changelog :)
<j1mc> :)
<Captainkrtek> j1mc, where are you located if I may ask?
<j1mc> I'm in Chicago
<Captainkrtek> ahh cool :)
<coalwater> hello
<mdke> hi coalwater
<coalwater> i need to ask a small something, u guys mentain the wikis right?
<mdke> the help wiki, but we might be able to help - go ahead
<coalwater> i know it's gonna be silly ,but i wanted to fix a link on an immutable page
<coalwater> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MoinMoin
<mdke> ah, we can't change those pages either. They come with the upstream software
<coalwater> see, apparently all the links that are linking to moinmoin.wikiwikiweb.de were moved to moinmo.in
<coalwater> and ok o well lol
<coalwater> guess it needs to be changed from the core then right ? lol nvm then
<mdke> we would need to upgrade the wiki in order to fix that
<mdke> I believe an upgrade is planned though
<coalwater> so there isn't any like super wiki user huh :D
<mdke> not for these pages, I don't think
<mdke> only someone with administrative access to the server could touch them
<coalwater> ok, thanks
<mdke> evening all
<UndiFineD> hello mdke
<Rocket2DMn> good afternoon folks
<mdke> hey Rocket2DMn
<Rocket2DMn> hey mdke , did you get my question a couple weeks ago about XSL changes to the docbook builds?
<UndiFineD> is there an official full lamp guide ?
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: I think so but you weren't around when I saw it. What was it again?
<Rocket2DMn> UndiFineD, there is some stuff in the serverguide, not sure if it covers everything though - https://help.ubuntu.com/11.04/serverguide/C/lamp-applications.html
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, i have some changes to clean up the docbook html build, i wasnt sure if you wanted to have it committed though
<Rocket2DMn> i have all the validation errors cleaned up except one
<UndiFineD> as I tried to get something going: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/FocusGroups/Docs/SoD2011
<Rocket2DMn> ahh summer of documentation :)
<Rocket2DMn> yours truly started that
<Rocket2DMn> glad to see its still going
<UndiFineD> thanks :)
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: what are the reasons against committing it?
<Rocket2DMn> not much really, i'd like it tested first though
<Rocket2DMn> the biggest concern i have was a change to the CSS realting to the search in the header
<mdke> ok. I'm not that knowledgeable about html validity issues
<Rocket2DMn> we have a <script> and a <noscript> copy of the search stuff - they had the same ID which was an error, so i gave one a new ID
<mdke> oh right
<Rocket2DMn> i just wanted to make sure it worked correcty
<UndiFineD> I really like: achecker.ca
<mdke> i'm happy for you to commit if it improves things; although if there are xsl changes, then possibly they should also be resolved upstream unless the changes are with our specific code
<Rocket2DMn> the only error remaining relates to that as well, it complains that <form> element is not allowed there
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, the XSL changes are just for ubuntu-docs wrapper around the docbook-xsl, no upstream changes
<mdke> ok, cool
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, i can commit it in a few minutes if you want to test it out.  i think i saw that you are planning on pushing a SRU soon
<mdke> commit it to oneiric if you think it needs a bit of testing
<mdke> I sent a SRU this morning for gnome-user-docs in natty, if that's the same one you are thinking of
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, oneiric is different, that has a completely different build script
<mdke> oh, I thought that was the one you were working on
<Rocket2DMn> im talking ubuntu-docs (g-u-d isnt docbook), and its for natty and earlier
<mdke> so it's the docbook stuff you are working on?
<Rocket2DMn> oneiric has the mallard transformations
<mdke> right, also gnome-user-docs in natty
<Rocket2DMn> yes, docbook only, i can send you the patch to apply to your own checkout if you want to test it befor ei commit
<mdke> I'm happy for you to go ahead
<Rocket2DMn> ok, standby ill double check the work now and commit it
<mdke> what do we do with help.u.com? can we fix the html with sed or should we look at rebuilding?
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, you mean the static pages at the top level?
<mdke> I mean everything
<Rocket2DMn> that's what this is for, so we would be better off pushing a new build once the changes are in the correct stable branches
<Rocket2DMn> trying to use sed on that would be way too much work i think
<Rocket2DMn> probably unreliable too
<mdke> ok, that's what I figured but I wasn't sure how bad things were ;)
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, the XSL is run on every page, so the problem affects all of them
<Rocket2DMn> the top level index page is not correct either, it may be easier to copy over the actual content of the page into an index.html that was correctly generated
<mdke> sure, but it depends on the type of problem. But I've got the idea
<Rocket2DMn> (there are a couple of other static pages at the top level too i think)
<j1mc> hi all
<mdke> hey Jim
<Rocket2DMn> hey j1mc
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, i just committed the 90% fix
<Rocket2DMn> grab the update and do a HTML build
<Rocket2DMn> it should only get 1 validation error now (natty)
<j1mc> Rocket2DMn: it sounds like you're talking about the html build of the server guide
<j1mc> is that right?
<j1mc> docbook -> xslt -> html ?
<Rocket2DMn> j1mc, not just the serverguide, all html builds
<j1mc> ah, ok
<Rocket2DMn> docbook generated ones that is
<j1mc> oh, you mean the 'maverick and earlier' desktop help, too, then?
<Rocket2DMn> mallard in oneiric is another story, i pushed a fix for that a few weeks ago.  it's a workaround until upstream generates a HTML5 doctype themselves
<j1mc> ok
<j1mc> that is a good idea to work on with upstream, i think. html5 builds for the yelp-xsl builds. at least something to consider.
<Rocket2DMn> j1mc, it literally just inserts the header into the html files after the build is done
<Rocket2DMn> i tried having it done during the XSL build from mallard->html5 but it failed miserably
<j1mc> ah
<j1mc> i am just learning xslt... going through a big xslt book. i figure it was time for me to learn it.
<j1mc> s/figure/figured
<Rocket2DMn> yeah, either the XSLT version just doesn't understand what the HTML5 header is, or the parser doesnt know and it screwd stuff up
 * j1mc nods
<Rocket2DMn> and i could inject it statically into the XSLT either
<j1mc> thanks for that, Rocket2DMn
<Rocket2DMn> couldnt*
<Rocket2DMn> np, i have some experience with XSLT, it can take awhile to grasp of how it actually behaves
<Rocket2DMn> it actually reminded me of a programming language i dabbled with briefly in college which treated inputs in a templated fashion, i dont recall what language it was though
<mdke> thanks Rocket2DMn
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: some of those things you have changed I think are still used in gnome-user-docs/natty and ubuntu-docs/oneiric
<Rocket2DMn> it might have been LISP, but i'm not sure
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, yes, oneiric ubuntu-docs is up to date though
<mdke> particularly the ones to do with the Google search I think
<j1mc> mdke: should we do any cleanup on the ubuntu-doc-committers list? there is at least one guy, george lesica, who contributed to xubuntu docs, but it was years ago.
<Rocket2DMn> i actually came up with the docbook fixes first but never committed them, then did the oneiric stuff and committed that b/c i got it all working properly
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: oh I see, in revision 7
<j1mc> i'm still in touch w/him. he's in illinois.
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, see http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-doc/ubuntu-docs/oneiric/revision/7
<mdke> does the css also need to change there?
<j1mc> i guess it's a low priority
<mdke> j1mc: it's not a bad idea, I've sometimes thought about that myself. Should we write to people to ask, do you think?
<mdke> or maybe set an expiry on the team so that people can renew themselves every 6 months or so
<j1mc> i think an initial note would be nice. an inquiry of sorts.
<j1mc> there are people like nixternal (richard johnson) who are on that list but aren't contributing now, but ... richard could come back.
<j1mc> i wouldn't want to remove him.
<mdke> yes, he should stay, it's more like those who haven't contributed for many years
<j1mc> right
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, i dont recall seeing any css errors in the oneiric branch, let me check the output
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: I was just thinking that you changed the Google search css in the docbook builds, and I think that I just copied those over for the mallard build
<mdke> (before you changed it)
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, is there a CSS file in oneiric?
<mdke> it's all in ubuntu.xsl
<Rocket2DMn> ah i see
<Rocket2DMn> i thought i had the errors fixed in oneiric, but now i'm seeing some
<Rocket2DMn> not relating to namespaces though
<mdke> I think any errors in oneiric will also be in gnome-user-docs/natty
<mdke> including the errors you've fixed already
<mdke> if you don't mind poking around, that's much appreciated
<Rocket2DMn> yeah i
<Rocket2DMn> ill look around, havent done work in the gnome-user-docs branches yet for this i dont think
<Rocket2DMn> i think w3 may have updated their html5 checker, b/c i asnt getting these errors before (complains about img elements not having an alt attribute)
<mdke> thanks dude
 * mdke -> signing off for the evening
<j1mc> later, mdke
<j1mc> Rocket2DMn: i noticed that i couldn't switch a bug from being assigned to ubuntu-docs to the server guide
<j1mc> have you noticed that?
<Rocket2DMn> j1mc, ubuntu-docs is an ubuntu package, serverguide is an upstream project
<j1mc> is there a reason for that?
<Rocket2DMn> (we also have ubuntu-docs as an upstream project but we dont track bugs there anymore)
<Rocket2DMn> serverguide is not an ubuntu package anymore
<j1mc> ah, ok
<j1mc> do you know what we should do when someone files a bug against the ubuntu-docs package but the bug actually applies to the server guide?
<Rocket2DMn> looks like ubuntu-serverguide was last a package in lucid
 * j1mc nods
<Rocket2DMn> j1mc, open the task against the serverguide project.  unless you think its something we'll do a SRU for, close the task against ubuntu-docs
<Rocket2DMn> we still have a half dozen or so serverguide bugs i left open that we might SRU, but the rest are closed
<j1mc> ah, cool.
<j1mc> i see how mdke did it with this bug: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-docs/+bug/785389
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 785389 in ubuntu-docs "Bug in dovecot-postfix configuration documentation" [Undecided,Invalid]
<j1mc> that's what i needed to know
 * j1mc feels sleepy. i don't know why i have felt sleepy somewhere between 2-4pm all week.
<Rocket2DMn> yeah j1mc  that's the correct approach
<j1mc> ok - i'm going to take off for a bit. thanks for your help, Rocket2DMn
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, i see you did a community interview, very cool
#ubuntu-doc 2011-05-21
<Rocket2DMn> hey UndiFineD , you here?
<UndiFineD> yes
<Rocket2DMn> what is this page for - https://help.ubuntu.com/community/menu ?
<UndiFineD> I was playing a bit
<UndiFineD> I was thinking of some sotrt of menu for fast browsing
<Rocket2DMn> a year or two ago the index pages we rewritten using a "signpost" approach
<Rocket2DMn> is the main page not adequate?
<UndiFineD> hmmm, to me it does not seem the easiest way to get to documents
<UndiFineD> and the search does not seem to be working at all
<Rocket2DMn> we use a topic based approach for cataloging the documentation rather than a table of contents or index approach
<Rocket2DMn> we can certainly expand the main page or its immediate subpages if material is missing
<UndiFineD> yeah I noticed :) very gnomy
<Rocket2DMn> it's just better to not maintain more than one indexing area
<Rocket2DMn> hehe yeah, i know
<UndiFineD> you can removed it if you wish
<Rocket2DMn> ok, i'll do that
<Rocket2DMn> if there is more material that you think shoiuld be more easily accessible, please bring it up on the mailing list
<UndiFineD> ok I will, I tend to stick the team to UDS plans too, meaning say what is need but as short as possible, and we should avoid redundancy
<UndiFineD> I listened in on most of the doc sessions
<Rocket2DMn> sounds good man
<Rocket2DMn> man there is sooo much old material on the wiki :(
<UndiFineD> I know, which is hy I thought lamp would be a good starting point
<UndiFineD> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/Meetings/WikiFG/20110517
<Rocket2DMn> you like working on server documentaiton?
<UndiFineD> I know most of it
<UndiFineD> I had to design a full stack of anti spam for a mailserver and when employed I am mostly a php programmer
<UndiFineD> oh and unity may not be flawless, but it is addictive
<UndiFineD> for fun I launched gnome-panel in unity, but I could not go back
<Rocket2DMn> i havent played around too much in unity
<Rocket2DMn> i need to take some time to learn more features to get better use out of it
<UndiFineD> well I waited to install it after UDS, so I am using it now for almost a week
<j1mc> i like unity. i've been fortunate enough to have a laptop that supports it well
<j1mc> i would like gnome shell more if it didn't have so much padding in the theme and if it had better fonts.
<UndiFineD> only my sound is broken
<UndiFineD> but that may be a kernel issue
<j1mc> the fonts on g-s are buggy. it isn't a rendering issue like it used to be - cantarel (sp?) is just a buggy font at this point.
<UndiFineD> or pulse
<jbicha> cantarell hasn't been packaged for deb/ubuntu
<Captainkrtek> hey jbicha
#ubuntu-doc 2011-05-22
<UndiFineD> I hate the wiki surge protection
<UndiFineD> slows me down in my tagging process
<UndiFineD> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/CategoryObsolete
<vtanthropologist> Phil, are you there?
<vtanthropologist> Phil, I'm online
 * UndiFineD waves at vtanthropologist 
<UndiFineD> I have been busy yesterday
<UndiFineD> I got a number of pages tagged up for deletion, but we still need to review them
<UndiFineD> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Tag/Deletion/List
<Rocket2DMn> we have a ton of pages tagged
<Rocket2DMn> most are not ready to be deleted
<Rocket2DMn> check out https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiGuide/DeletingAndRenaming
<Rocket2DMn> ive deleted a ton of pages this last week though
<Rocket2DMn> doing some right now actually
<UndiFineD> great
<Rocket2DMn> the biggest thing is getting pages unlinked from other pages
<UndiFineD> how do you search ? google ?
<Rocket2DMn> some pages on the list should not be deleted at all as they are linked from the serverguide
<Rocket2DMn> other may be salvageable
<Rocket2DMn> no, just click on the title at the top
<Rocket2DMn> if you mouseover if will say Do a full search...
<UndiFineD> and if nothing is found, should I edit the page ? or something else ?
<UndiFineD> perhaps a searched and safe to change tag ?
<Rocket2DMn> if nothing is linked to it, it's in a better state to be deleted
<Rocket2DMn> its really a judgment call about whether a page should be deleted
<MrChrisDruif> That's true, still you've got persons who have bookmarked it right?
<Rocket2DMn> there are a lot of really old pages, but some of the are tightly integrated with others which makes them difficult and time consuimg to delete
<UndiFineD> well I dont havve the rights to do it
<UndiFineD> yet
<Rocket2DMn> MrChrisDruif, yeah, it will break bookmarks.  In some cases a redirect is better to use
<Rocket2DMn> however, for stuff that just isnt applicable anymore, deleting works
<UndiFineD> but I guess the UBT wiki team could help to relief search efforts here
<MrChrisDruif> +1 on that, good learning experience as well?
<UndiFineD> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/vsftpd?action=fullsearch&context=180&value=linkto%3A%22vsftpd%22
<Rocket2DMn> tagging is helpful, but getting pages up to date is even better :)
<UndiFineD> nothing found
<Rocket2DMn> UndiFineD, i know for a fact that that page is linked from the serverguide
<Rocket2DMn> Adam Sommer maintains the server guide
<UndiFineD> so google search might be safer here ?
<UndiFineD> the wiki is not finding anything
<MrChrisDruif> Rocket2DMn; I agree, why only tag if you can fix it :)
<Rocket2DMn> UndiFineD, perhaps
<Rocket2DMn> wiki pages are notoriously difficult to keep up to date since things change so fast
<MrChrisDruif> Rocket2DMn; Isn't that what Mallard is going to help with?
<Rocket2DMn> MrChrisDruif, no, mallard is used for the official docs
<MrChrisDruif> As it can output to all three systems currently in place?
<Rocket2DMn> anything at /community on h.u..c is community wiki
<MrChrisDruif> I thought it could also output to wiki format?
<Rocket2DMn> not sure, it probably could if somebody writes a transformation for it, but we dont use official docs like that
<Rocket2DMn> we ship the official docs in mallard format to be read in yelp, then build them to html to post online
<Rocket2DMn> they can only be edited at the bzr source
<UndiFineD> http://www.google.com/search?q=site:help.ubuntu.com+https%3A%2F%2Fhelp.ubuntu.com%2Fcommunity%2Fvsftpd
<Rocket2DMn> UndiFineD, that's not showing links, just instances of vsftpd
<Rocket2DMn> i'm also not sure what to do about translated pages on the wiki
<Rocket2DMn> some are marked for deletion, but i think we allow translated wiki pages
<Rocket2DMn> not sure we suggest doing it, but i dont recall us ever going out of our way to get rid of them
<MrChrisDruif> Isn't it also true LoCo's will start to use help.u.c. for their help pages?
<Rocket2DMn> MrChrisDruif, i think we talking about allowing the transalted official docs to be hosted
<MrChrisDruif> Well, I'm only expressing what I've heard in the ubt Wiki meeting
<UndiFineD> yes, that is for official docs initially
<UndiFineD> but if the official docs refer to translated community docs, they might be created
<MrChrisDruif> So only official docs will be put on the help pages, eventually translated to other languages?
<MrChrisDruif> (Most are already translated afaik)
<Rocket2DMn> i think it will just be an export of the translations directly
<Rocket2DMn> translators wont work on the html pages, they just translate the mallard source which gets built into html just like the english docs
<MrChrisDruif> Indeed
#ubuntu-doc 2012-05-14
<jbicha> hi, does anyone want to verify that the bugs listed for ubuntu-docs 12.04.5 are fixed? http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/pending-sru.html
<jbicha> if they are fixed, open the bug report and change the verification-needed tag to verification-done
#ubuntu-doc 2012-05-19
<elfy> hi - not sure if someone can help or not - but I'll ask anyway
<elfy> if I subscirbe to a wiki for changes I get them through my LP e-mail, if I tell the community pages through notification option to do the same I get no notification
<elfy> or do I not get notification because theyare pages I have changed?
<MrChrisDruif> elfy; problems with notifications on help.ubuntu.com/community ?
<elfy> MrChrisDruif: LOL
<elfy> sneaky :)
 * MrChrisDruif has a small power problem, thou I did get some if it
<MrChrisDruif> "<elfy> if I subscirbe to a wiki for changes I get them through my LP e-mail, if I tell the community pages through notification option to do the same I get no notification"
<elfy> I get notifications of changes if I am subscribed to a wiki page
<MrChrisDruif> Yes
<elfy> if I set notification though settings ona /community page - they never get to me
<elfy> and I KNOW I have made changes - I also KNOW others have
<elfy> so I am confused
<MrChrisDruif> So you get them from wiki.ubuntu.com but not help.ubuntu.com, correct?
<elfy> yep
<elfy> I'm trying to get all the little things sorted for the thread to wiki team
<elfy> and this is a real PITA from my en
<elfy> d
<MrChrisDruif> Ah, the community/Pages%20For%20Import ?
<elfy> any comm page MrChrisDruif
<MrChrisDruif> How are the pages listed on the subscriptions page?
<elfy> I guess that spaces is bad and tell peopl
<elfy> 2 secs
<MrChrisDruif> Spaces are evil!
<elfy> I know - cjeck our mailing list for 'spaces' ;)
<MrChrisDruif> I'm hesitant to do that....^_^
<MrChrisDruif> Luckily spaces in header names are _ these days...
<MrChrisDruif> But back to subject?
<elfy> hang on - trying to login with new Lp name
<elfy> jeez - this is not easy
<MrChrisDruif> New lp-name?
<MrChrisDruif> Maybe there also lies your issue?
<elfy> nope
<elfy> cleared stuff - stopped it looking at old name :)
<elfy> got there in the end
<elfy> MrChrisDruif: http://i.imgur.com/vcBSo.png
<elfy> notification in /comm looks like ^^
<MrChrisDruif> And you want all the ForumWikiTeam changes?
<MrChrisDruif> Try adding "community/ForumWikiTeam*" && "community/ForumWikiTeam.*"
<MrChrisDruif> Probably the first would get you everything from ForumWikiTeam, the second one just to make sure
<elfy> I want to know how to get changes to any page I have edited
<MrChrisDruif> Well, it doesn't add "community/" automatically in front the name
<elfy> in not community page - hit subsribe button appears do it
<elfy> mmm - so you have to add each page - no easy way of achieving it ?
<MrChrisDruif> So you are now subscribed to help.ubuntu.com/ForumWikiTeam and not help.ubuntu.com/community/ForumWikiTeam e.g.
<MrChrisDruif> In my theme (default theme I believe) I can't even hit a button subscribe O_O
<MrChrisDruif> I'm currently using "light" theme and it doesn't have a subscribe button
<elfy> 2 secs - I'll ry for some screenies - but it is late lol
<MrChrisDruif> Date and time in the Netherlands: Sun May 20 00:18:28
<MrChrisDruif> I know ^
<elfy> lol
<elfy> 1 hour earlier here
<MrChrisDruif> So it's still Saturday for you? ;-)
<elfy> just :)
<MrChrisDruif> Anyhow, I'm off to bed as my alarm goes off way to soon for me
<MrChrisDruif> I'll scrollback what you've said tomorrow afternoon, I'll know what you've said/send
<head_victim> elfy: you need *'s currently you're subscribed to individual pages.
<elfy> k
<elfy> MrChrisDruif: http://imgur.com/a/jFhbP
<MrChrisDruif> I do not see any subscribe button for you as well elfy
<MrChrisDruif> (It used to be beside the dropdown-menu on the right)
<elfy> head_victim: ok - I understand that - with the 'not'community pages there is no button
<MrChrisDruif> Anyhow, add for every page community/<NameOfPage> you want to subscribe to
<elfy> MrChrisDruif: first image - Edit - Info - Subscirbe
<MrChrisDruif> But that's wiki.ubuntu.com right?
<MrChrisDruif> There is a BIG difference between WIKI.ubuntu.com and HELP.ubuntu.com/community
<elfy> ok - if that's the way to do it to wit the /comm pages  - that is cool - just need to know that is hiw it is SUPPOSED to be
<elfy> MrChrisDruif: I know - there is not anywhere to SEE the differences :)
<MrChrisDruif> Anyhow, I'm definitely off now ^_^
<elfy> so I'm here lol
<elfy> MrChrisDruif: have a good one
<MrChrisDruif> You too elfy
<elfy> :)
<head_victim> elfy: I'll just add a test comment to the page (commented out) to see if it works, is that ok? If I create a test page I can't delete it is all
<elfy> head_victim: if it really as simple as there are differences that is cool
<elfy> head_victim: do asomething to https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ForumWikiTeam
<elfy> I know I am supposed to see changes to that page :)
<head_victim> Ok, tick the "trivial changes" box as well
<head_victim> That way I don't spam everyone when I edit it
<elfy> don't worry - there's not may oif us
<head_victim> Ok done
<head_victim> Thank you for your changes. Your attention to detail is appreciated.
<head_victim> Notifications sent to: elfy
<elfy> thanks
<head_victim> So all I'd suggest is, make sure your primary email in your launchpad accoutn is set up to what you're expecting
<elfy> yep
<head_victim> Cool, so the email came through?
<elfy> coming in to -doc team assumig youa re Jared
<head_victim> That is I :)
<elfy> cool
<elfy> soI was looking in the wrong place ]
<elfy> :( bad elfy
<elfy> I skimm some filters - sort filters
<head_victim> Ah so it's going to an email you don't always monitor?
<elfy> sorry and thanks
<head_victim> Ah yeah, I have heaps of filters myself
<head_victim> Least you know it's working
<head_victim> And which filters to watch ;)
<elfy> so I only feel really stupid now instead of cross
<head_victim> And one last spam to remove the test comment.
<head_victim> No, feeling stupid would be sitting there still being cross. Being smart is asking so now it's resolved. We all have bad days.
<elfy> yep -= cool - thanks for the help at least head_victim
<elfy> lol
<elfy> I have had a bad month to be honest LD
<elfy> and now I am not even sureif head_victim is th eone I ahve seen in xubu channels lol
<head_victim> Hah surely there is only one of me?
<head_victim> I lurk lots of places, not often in Xubuntu land though
<elfy> aah cool
<elfy> not sure who is who just now - have a few IRC nicks - and finallt got forum one changed to elfy from forestpiskie
<elfy> so elfy is and wqas forestpiskie if you knew him  :)
<head_victim> Maybe UBT?
<elfy> ahhh - if hobgoblin rings a bell then yes lol
<elfy> in fact I thin UBT would be it head_victim
<head_victim> elfy: sounds like it :)
<elfy> yep
<elfy> head_victim: yep - for sure all turning up in the doc filter - a little tune up ...
<head_victim> elfy: good stuff, nice to hear when things go right
<elfy> indeed it is :)
<elfy> I' fiddle and fart abot and then get someone to dblchk for me
#ubuntu-doc 2012-05-20
<melodie> hello
<melodie> I would like to see the ubuntu wiki doc be updated on the page "LiveCDCostumizationFromScratch". I would be willing to do it but one I am a newbie there and two I can't get a login at the moment, the page just does not want to be displayed.
<melodie> I there someone who could help me ?
<melodie> here the page:
<melodie> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/LiveCDCustomizationFromScratch
<melodie> here the comment #44 in that one page:
<melodie> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/upstart/+bug/430224/comments/44
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 430224 in upstart "init: support chroots" [Medium,Fix released]
<melodie> and now I see upstart is even more recent, with version 1.5.x
<melodie> ok bbl
<melodie> back
<melodie> still no one  here ?
<MrChrisDruif> Hmm, what?
<MrChrisDruif> melodie; ^
<melodie> oh ?!
<melodie> Hi MrChrisDruif
<MrChrisDruif> Aloha
<MrChrisDruif> About what section on https://help.ubuntu.com/community/LiveCDCustomizationFromScratch were you enquiring?
<melodie> MrChrisDruif, I am almost gone to get to sleep, as I can't get a login on that page I am now writing a bug report instead
<melodie> MrChrisDruif, about /sbin/initctl
<melodie> solved here: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/upstart/+bug/430224/comments/44
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 430224 in upstart "init: support chroots" [Medium,Fix released]
<melodie> MrChrisDruif, do you need other clues ?
<melodie> how could I classify this bug ?
<MrChrisDruif> I'm not familiar with either that page or /sbin/initctl , but if you could edit the text you get from https://help.ubuntu.com/community/LiveCDCustomizationFromScratch?action=raw to what it should be, I can alter it for you?
<MrChrisDruif> Btw, interesting page
<melodie> MrChrisDruif, does this help you ? https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-docs/+bug/1002062
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 1002062 in ubuntu-docs "LiveCDCustomizationFromScratch page needs an update" [Undecided,New]
<melodie> :)
<MrChrisDruif> Btw, did you just try "refresh" once you came back on that page?
<melodie> MrChrisDruif, I will try to build a Openbox Ubuntu Precise Remix, based on openbox-menu package. See the menu here for an example :
<melodie> http://meets.free.fr/debian/images/2-Ubuntu-Openbox-desktop.png
<MrChrisDruif> So "Login" return to page and "refresh"?
<MrChrisDruif> lint2?
<melodie> Login takes me to this page: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UserDocumentation
<MrChrisDruif> EspaÃ±ol btw?
<melodie> which I could eventually edit, but this was not my purpose. Then trying to reach again the page I am interested it makde me loose the login status
<MrChrisDruif> Yes, but when you go back to /LiveCDetc and refresh/f5?
<melodie> MrChrisDruif, no, no soy de Espana y no puedo hablar espanol mucho
<MrChrisDruif> (It's one of the many "bugs" I've found with the new "light" theme)
<melodie> MrChrisDruif, I didn't try that
<MrChrisDruif> Could you try that?
<MrChrisDruif> For me? Pretty please? ^_^
<melodie> I am trying right now, and it is so long before displaying next page !
<melodie> now:
<MrChrisDruif> ??
<melodie> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/?action=login&login=1&oidstage=1&stage=openid&-blablabla-my_name-and-so
<melodie> I put back in the uri field : https://help.ubuntu.com/community/LiveCDCustomizationFromScratch
<MrChrisDruif> Yup
<melodie> and back to no-login anymore. so I clicked on refresh, and still not logued in
<melodie> end of line.
<melodie> I can't do more.
<MrChrisDruif> Hmm, okay.
<melodie> and also I am a newbie here and I get very tired now. :D
<MrChrisDruif> It worked for me..
<MrChrisDruif> Understandable
<MrChrisDruif> Please go to bed and sleep well
<melodie> very good ! can you edit that page and add the relevant information, or make use in any what that you think is good ?
<melodie> MrChrisDruif, thanks ! :)
<melodie> Eres Espanol ?
<MrChrisDruif> Nee, Nederlands ^_^
<melodie> ok
<melodie> I don't know how to say good night in Dutch, but I wish you a good one ! :)
<melodie> bye
<MrChrisDruif> You too
<melodie> thanks a lot ! :)
<MrChrisDruif> Buenas noches!
#ubuntu-doc 2013-05-13
<bkerensa> godbyk-feynman: ping
<godbyk-feynman> bkerensa: pong
<bkerensa> godbyk-feynman: so on help.ubuntu.com the footer says
<bkerensa> "To report a problem, visit the bug page for Ubuntu Documentation"
<bkerensa> I think thats to vague.... Do you agree?
<bkerensa> I have noticed a significant amount of people filing bugs on ubuntu-docs that has nothing to do with docs
<bkerensa> I think they are being mislead by the footer
<bkerensa> and I think we can improve the verbiage
<godbyk> Agreed.
<godbyk> We could say, "To report errors in this documentation, file a bug on Launchpad." or similar.
<bkerensa> or perhaps just File a bug?
<bkerensa> and hyperlink that?
<bkerensa> "To report errors in this documentation, file a bug"
<godbyk> That works. And yeah, hyperlink 'file a bug'.
<bkerensa> "To report errors in the Ubuntu Documentation, file a bug
<bkerensa> even
<bkerensa> ?
<bkerensa> if so I can make this change
<bkerensa> pleia2: any feedback on that?
<bkerensa> mhall119: thoughts?
<pleia2> godbyk: +1
<godbyk> bkerensa: Looks like you need to modify html/ubuntu.xsl to adjust that text.
<bkerensa> indeed
<bkerensa> godbyk: lets hope this code is hacky ;)
<mhall119> bkerensa: thoughts on what?
<bkerensa> godbyk: I need to setup a cron to pull down the branches once a day
<bkerensa> mhall119: changing verbiage of the report bug at help.ubuntu.com
<bkerensa> lots of people are filing bugs on ubuntu-docs that are not related... I think they go to help.ubuntu.com seeking help and then they fail at finding it and are clicking the report link
<bkerensa> and filing bugs on ubuntu-docs generically
<bkerensa> due to the verbiage not being clear enough
<mhall119> bkerensa: if you have a lot of people filing code bugs against ubuntu-docs, it's probably a good idea to offer 2 links, one for ubuntu and one for ubuntu-docs, with context explaining which to use for each purpose
<godbyk> bkerensa: It'd also be nice to be able to add a short feedback form to the bottom of the docs pages so we can discover which pages are unhelpful, confusing, etc.
<pleia2> mhall119: I don't know, people don't really read things once they get beyond 5 words ;)
<bkerensa> :D
<pleia2> I'd give just a link to documentation bugs, and have them just figure out how to submit a proper bug for anything else (it's not that hard to figure out)
<bkerensa> indeed
<bkerensa> and technically bug squad should be triaging
<bkerensa> kinda
<pleia2> heh, they need more volunteers too
<bkerensa> godbyk: should be help.ubuntu.com/index.html no?
<godbyk> bkerensa: Where is that dir/file?
<bkerensa> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-doc/ubuntu-docs/help.ubuntu.com/view/head:/index.html
<bkerensa> oh..... someone is being fancy and dropping links to third party sites with adds in community doc are they
<godbyk> bkerensa: Ah, I think those are generated files.
<bkerensa> =/
<bkerensa> godbyk: where is this .xsl file?
<godbyk> bkerensa: In ubuntu-docs, raring branch.
<bkerensa> kk
 * godbyk has a feeling that it'll take us a while to sort out how all this stuff works. :-/
<bkerensa> pleia2: also it seems jbicha is gone gone gone
<bkerensa> I have not seen him for a good week or so
<bkerensa> maybe longer then that
<pleia2> bkerensa: do you have a decent handle on things?
#ubuntu-doc 2013-05-14
<bkerensa> godbyk: fix all the things we must
<bkerensa> pleia2: yeah I know how to do the whole release process for the most part... some of our tools and processes are broken though
<bkerensa> pleia2: much to be discussed and decided on at UDS
<pleia2> I suspect mdke can make himself available for small questions here and there if we can't figure it out
<bkerensa> plan we must
<godbyk> bkerensa: Is there anyone other than you who is active and has commit access to the bzr repositories?
<bkerensa> godbyk: :) No
<bkerensa> godbyk: Not for ubuntu-docs specifically
<bkerensa> I mean there is serverguide folks who have commit
<bkerensa> but they only hack on serverguide
<godbyk> Hmm.. okay.
<godbyk> What's the current procedure for gaining commit access?
<godbyk> I think usually folks had to be vetted and recommended by other docs admins.
<godbyk> But in lieu of there being other admins, how would you suggest I request commit privileges?
<bkerensa> godbyk: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam
<bkerensa> godbyk: specifically there is not a process that is well written but essentially it is... 1) Do good work 2) send e-mail to list and ask for access
<bkerensa> godbyk: if you would like why dont you do this help.ubuntu.com fix
<bkerensa> and I will review it
<godbyk> bkerensa: Works for me.
<bkerensa> godbyk: so the CC is currently the team admin :) and I guess at UDS we will discuss how that all will work down the road
<bkerensa> godbyk: they added me
<godbyk> Sounds like a plan.
<bkerensa> right now we need to improve our wiki... document the processes for release so the info is not just known to a few
<bkerensa> and then get momentum and leadership
<bkerensa> godbyk: your optimism and interest in helping has been great though just FYI!
<bkerensa> :)
<godbyk> bkerensa: Agreed. Have you had a chance to draft the release procedure/instructions yet?
<godbyk> I'm happy to test them out.
<bkerensa> godbyk: I have not yet... I hope to do that this weekend... With UDS and meetings this week I'm pretty slammed
<bkerensa> somehow I have to make the UDS session tomorrow
<bkerensa> :x
<godbyk> I'm going to try to attend the UDS session.
<godbyk> bkerensa: Merge proposal submitted.
<bkerensa> godbyk: looks good to me
<bkerensa> godbyk: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-doc/ubuntu-docs/saucy/revision/212
<bkerensa> I think it takes a few hours for the cronjobs to run and generate all the things and for it to go live
<bkerensa> maybe once a day
<godbyk> That's something we should probably find the answer to as well. :)
<knome> bkerensa, o/
<knome> bkerensa, i'm active and have commit access... but i work mostly with the xubuntu docs too
<knome> bkerensa, just FYI :)
#ubuntu-doc 2013-05-15
<GridCube> its there a problem in the ubuntu's wiki? i can't seem to be able to login
<pleia2> it's sometimes slow and I have to try a couple times
<GridCube> it gets stuck in the +decide page
<knome> try again
<GridCube> Internal Server Error
<GridCube> The server encountered an internal error or misconfiguration and was unable to complete your request.
<benonsoftware> GridCube: The help.ubuntu.com/community wiki?
<GridCube> no
<GridCube> wiki.ubuntu.com
<knome> GridCube, #canonical-sysadmin :9
<benonsoftware> Logins fine for me.
<GridCube> it works now
<bkerensa> mentoring does not exist on wiki
<bkerensa> since we dont have the hands for mentoring
<bkerensa> maybe consider replacing that with getting started
<knome> mentoring for docs or generally?
<knome> sounds good
<bkerensa> just for docs
<bkerensa> joining a team is really not a getting started
<knome> i agree
<bkerensa> and so I think that would be a good replacement for mentoring
<bkerensa> godbyk: can you summarize the session today in a e-mail to the mailing list link to the pad.
<godbyk> bkerensa: Sure.
#ubuntu-doc 2013-05-17
<kotux> good evening
<bkerensa> mmm
<godbyk> bkerensa: I spent some time this evening chatting with kotux and getting him to the point that he's downloaded the ubuntu-docs bzr repository.
<bkerensa> excellent
<godbyk> bkerensa: I suggested that starting points (since he was eager to get started) would be to review the existing documentation to find typos, grammatical errors, and bits that are out of date or incorrect.
<bkerensa> great mentoring :)
<bkerensa> godbyk: So I am staging wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/GettingStarted
<bkerensa> when that has a solid outline we can add it to the menu
<godbyk> bkerensa: I also suggested he could take a look at the slew of existing bug reports and pick away are some of the smaller ones he finds or to start a discussion thread on the mailing list if he wants to tackle something larger.
<bkerensa> I also want to keep a list of our processes inside the ubuntu-docs repo somewhere in a text file
<godbyk> Ah, great!
<bkerensa> and also create a master todo list which we can update each cycle
<bkerensa> so people have a list of work that needs doing
<godbyk> That's a good idea, too.
<bkerensa> yeah if he wants to triage bugs that would be helpful too
<bkerensa> Im sure lots are invalid
<godbyk> As I explained to kotux, we're pretty new to this game, so we need to try to get everything sorted out ourselves before we can be of help to others.
<bkerensa> once that link gets updated the invalid bugs should be reduced
<bkerensa> yeah
<godbyk> Our documentation and processes aren't perfect in the manual project, but they might give you some ideas, too: http://ubuntu-manual.org/getinvolved
<godbyk> For the manual project, we organized the processes based on various roles one might want to assume.
<godbyk> So translators can find instructions and information relevant to their work.
<godbyk> Editors, authors, etc. similarly.
<godbyk> (Some of our information is in a style guide PDF <http://files.ubuntu-manual.org/style-guide.pdf>. It's not all listed on the website.)
<bkerensa> cool
<bkerensa> godbyk: you didnt send that e-mail yet right? If not lets wait till tomorrow or this weekend and include a doodle.com scheduler so we can setup a first meeting too
 * bkerensa is going to go off to bed but will start working on his work items tomorrow I think
<godbyk> Which email was that?
<bkerensa> godbyk: the uds summary one?
<godbyk> Yep. I already sent that one.
<bkerensa> ah ok :)
<godbyk> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2013-May/017299.html
<bkerensa> well I will send a meeting one this weekend then
<godbyk> I mentioned that we'd schedule a health-check meeting within the next month or so.
<bkerensa> odd it didnt go to my Ubuntu label in Gmail
<bkerensa> hehe
<godbyk> Oh, sure, blame gmail! ;-)
<bkerensa> that looks great
<bkerensa> good work on that
<godbyk> Thanks.
<bkerensa> godbyk: so I checked and committters cant add committers so mdke cant add you
<bkerensa> I would just ping pleia2 tomorrow since there has been no objections
<godbyk> As I feared, though, our UDS session attracted a bit of attention (i.e., potential contributors wanting to help) that we're not quite yet ready for.  :)
<bkerensa> and perhaps she or someone else on the CC can add you
<bkerensa> godbyk: indeed
<godbyk> Ah, okay. I'll check into tomorrow.
<bkerensa> it means perhaps we need to work to get the getting started done sooner
<bkerensa> :D
<godbyk> Yes.
<godbyk> I think our getting started docs need to get finished ASAP.
<godbyk> Then we can distract our new contributors with fixing bugs and improving documentation while we sort out all the other background details. ;-)
<godbyk> Matt said he wouldn't mind answering questions if we get stuck or whatnot, but that he's otherwise going to be quite busy with other work.
<godbyk> So we do still have him as a source if we get completely stuck on something.
<knome> is somebody who is taking care of the server guide administration side here?
<ahoneybun> mhall119:
<mhall119> ahoneybun: ?
<ahoneybun> can you help me make a docbook?
<ahoneybun> make the package I mean
<godbyk> jbicha: Would you suggest that I fix typos in the raring branch or should that be frozen now?
<bkerensa> woah jbicha returns
<bkerensa> :D
<godbyk> jbicha: I just fixed a bug and set the status to 'fix committed'. Should I attach the bug to a particular milestone so it's easy to find later when we release the 13.10 docs and want to mark the bug as 'fix released'?
#ubuntu-doc 2013-05-18
<jbicha> godbyk: changes to stable release docs need to be coordinated with the translators so that they have reasonable time to make their changes
<jbicha> if it's only a spelling fix, it's possible to make the change and so like a sed replace on the translation templates since the translators likely don't actually need to change anything
<jbicha> depending on the change and your scripting skills, doing that sed replace may be a headache
#ubuntu-doc 2013-05-19
<melodie> hi
#ubuntu-doc 2014-05-13
<qwebirc591238> bah, lost connectivity
#ubuntu-doc 2014-05-15
 * Ekushey needs help
<Ekushey> ah sorry, problem solved
<belkinsa> Ekushey, good to hear.
#ubuntu-doc 2014-05-16
<phillw> knome: did you back up all the images from https://help.ubuntu.com/community/IconsPage before you deleted them?
<phillw> As you will have done so, please do let me have the link as to where they all are. thanks.
<pleia2> phillw: if you look in the history you can still view them all
<pleia2> on lines that say: ATTDEL: you can still click on "view" or "get"
<phillw> pleia2: nope, you cannot.. once a image is deleted it is gone
<pleia2> for example?
<pleia2> most of the images were deleted before knome came along, which is why the cleanup was done
<phillw> pleia2: the images were attached to that page... i know as I did add some.
<phillw> A sweeping deletion is the only thing that a wiki admin cannot reverse.
<phillw> there is no trace, there is no way to recover unless the person has followed the wiki rules of backing up every page and image that they mark for deletion.
<phillw> pleia2:  the images were attached to the page, the logs show - quite clearly, that they have been manually deleted.]
<pleia2> phillw: can you give me an example?
<pleia2> maybe I'm not going far back enough in history
<phillw> pleia2: look at the edit history....
<phillw> follow it back
<pleia2> oh I see, the "view" is showing up but showing the icons he replaced it with, not the old branding
<pleia2> anyway, he can certainly give more info than I can :)
<phillw> pleia2:  you know I'm persona non gratis, but deleting all the icons from a library is simply silly
<pleia2> there was certainly discussed rationale behind all the changes, but again, he can fill you in
<phillw> such things make it more difficult for me to be an advocate for linux
<phillw> pleia2: As I recall, deleting things was totally against wiki rules... you HAVE to make a back up.... Have things changed since I resigned?
<pleia2> a lot has changed, knome spent several days after our discussions fixing up the IconsPage, documenting his work and updating all related wiki pages that had the icons
<pleia2> it was a broken link mess before he began his work, it looks much cleaner and easier to navigate and use now
<pleia2> anyway, time for me to get some rest
<phillw> pleia2: well knowing knome, he will have back ups
<phillw> knome: can you please have a read back and let me know where you backed up the artwork to. Many thanks.
<knome> phillw, i'll have to dig up if i have the artwork backed up. is there something specific you need?
<phillw> knome: all of it :) several teams provided artwork to the central source at my behest in varying sizes for wiki pages to use from a central source that would never be deleted.
<knome> so who's missing what?
<phillw> We had an issue where someone vandalised a wiki page and the art work was deleted.... I trust that backups have been taken this time.
<knome> the whole point of the IconsPage update was to make the icons througout the wiki look consistent
<phillw> knome: Read the file of alterations... not too difficult?
<phillw> knome: indeed, but the artwork has to be moved to a new area. The rule of wiki is "never delete, without a backup"... Unless you have decided to break that rule....
<knome> it's possible i have.
<knome> i need to check up my backups, i might have them somewhere
<knome> but i'm really more interested about what is actually missing from somebody?
<phillw> So, the artwork would be on "...old artwork" :)
<knome> if they are missing any admonition icon, i'll gladly upload it for them
<knome> and make sure it's consistent
<knome> i understand your concern, but unless somebody actually needs something that isn't there, it'll be on my "wishlist" list :P
<phillw> I had no idea that the artwork of people provided across teams would simply go / vanish / not be available. I did a review of that area and stated it was *THE* place to put artwork on that could be referenced from the wiki system.....
<phillw> I'm still wondering why you deleted stuff :(
<knome> the IconsPage mainly consisted of two kinds of icons:
<knome> 1) icons pulled from various icon themes in various sizes
<knome> these are still available in the original icon themes if somebody specifically misses them
<knome> but they shouldn't be used on the wiki since they do not look consistent
<knome> instead the contributors should use the new icons, or ask for more if the selection isn't broad enough
<knome> 2) oversized application "header" images and other very miscellanous stuff
<knome> those that was *IN USE* were moved to the appropriate pages
<knome> say there was an 300x200px "app x" header image
<knome> linked to from AppX
<knome> it's now an attachment of AppX, since it has *no other use*
<knome> the ones that weren't used were simply deletable material anyway
<knome> there were some custom icons too,
<knome> but those are either preserved/updated
<knome> or weren't in use
<knome> *all* wikipages that linked to *any* of the images in the IconsPage are updated to link to the new icons
<knome> and/or their new locations under the appropriate wikipages
<knome> now let me ask you again...
<knome> is there something specific you are missing, or would you just want to see the old ugly wikipage?
<phillw> knome: I'm guessing you *HATE* https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/FAQ
<knome> no, that's fine
<knome> it's consistent.
<knome> it uses the round ubuntu icons. great
<phillw> it has been deleted
<knome> ...no?
<phillw> by you
<knome> that page?
<phillw> no, the page that held it... in this case I actually uploaded it to the page and did not link it to the library, had I done so... it would be gone... as are all the others you deleted... Do you not see what you have done by deleting a library?
<knome> hmm, let's be clear here
<knome> i was working on the *community wiki*
<phillw> indeed
<knome> i don't expect other wikis to interlink
<knome> if you've done that, and something is lost, i'm sorry
<knome> i don't hate any page
<phillw> Who empowered you to delete art work provided by the community?
<knome> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IconsPage
<knome> i didn't touch that page.
<knome> just to be sure we're talking about the same thing.
<knome> i don't see a reason to continue this discussion as you seem to want to finger point at me
<knome> it's unfortunate that some pages you maintain have broken images, and it wasn't really my intention
<phillw> I owe you a rather large apology, It is that page I thought you had removed ...
<knome> no,
<knome> i cleaned up https://wiki.ubuntu.com/community/IconsPage
<knome> err
<knome> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/IconsPage
<phillw> I blame google :P I do recall there was confusion... it appears that there still is
<knome> if i'd cleaned up the developer wiki IconsPage, i would have made sure any icon on it that was used was *somewhere*
<knome> and tbh, the developer wiki IconsPage would need a cleanup as well
<phillw> 3 pages saying 'icons'..... not good :(
<knome> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IconsPage?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=beepmediaplayer.png
<knome> that isn't a "common use case" "icon"
<knome> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IconsPage?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=IconHandPointing.png
<knome> and that isn't by any standards consistent with the ubuntu style
<phillw> So... who is the self appointed council of "standards consistent with the ubuntu style" ?
<knome> either it's obivious to you or not
<knome> *obvious
<phillw> It may be obvious to me (and it is), but there is no feed back to people posting art-work up
<phillw> I'd love to suggest to point people to  UBT, but that does not exist and no one takes any care of budding graphics people....
<knome> hmh, well
<knome> the situation in the community wiki is okay now
<knome> since it's cleaned
<knome> if somebody posts an icon that is a bit "off", we can just fix that
<knome> if people post those as attachments to single pages... not much we can do
<knome> we can even find all pages that use a certain icon (fortunately)
<phillw> knome: tell me, we have yet another major overhaul of both lubuntu wiki areas pending..... But, we'll get that done... If we find a padawan along the way, would you be prepared to assist him / her ?
<knome> since i've just got rid of responsibilities, not at this time ;)
<knome> but i'm always around for the odd question here and there
<phillw> okies, I'll bear that in mind and during the re-write of the 2 sections of lubuntu wiki (dev and community) I'll try to also update things to the new standard icons :)
<knome> if you're poking at wiki.ubuntu.com, don't link to help.ubuntu.com
<phillw> Thank you for putting up with me and allowing me to understand how things have changed
<knome> because there is no way to trace that path
<knome> the problem with the developer wiki is that there is a huge amount of stuff that is maintained by somebody
<phillw> I do know the two are seperate, I used to be a wiki editor person :P
<knome> and they are probably more touchy about somebody touching their stuff
<knome> yeah, just making sure
<knome> because it *is* tempting to do that now that the community wiki icons page is clean
<phillw> knome: If I wrongly edited a page that our Head of Dev (lubuntu) looks after... He'd simply arrange a contract killing. - Motto of the story?... Don't mess with MOTU's :D
<knome> ;)
<phillw> and as you are one, you know that :)
<phillw> knome: Thanks for your time, We have new TL for comms and he's making me dust the cobwebs off my wiki stuff :) https://blueprints.launchpad.net/lubuntu-brainstorming/+spec/lubuntu-website
<phillw> Crazy thing? I'm really enjoying it :)
<knome> :)
<knome> good luck
<phillw> knome: even though I'm no longer "ubuntu" let the doc team know that I'll help out where I can. just not in release team :P
#ubuntu-doc 2014-05-17
<sadbox> I'm trying to update this page (https://help.ubuntu.com/community/MediaWiki) but it appears to be locked or something
<sadbox> in 14.04 you need to "a2enconf mediawiki" to enable it, I'm sure exactly when that changed happened, but I'm guessing something since 2012 (the last update to that page)
<belkinsa> Do you have a LP account and a Ubuntu SSO account?
<belkinsa> Because i get in after hard refreshing the page after log in.
<belkinsa> sadbox ^^
#ubuntu-doc 2014-05-18
<psusi> there seems to be something wrong with help.ubuntu.com: the option to subscribe to a page is greyed out
<knome> psusi, you can always go to https://help.ubuntu.com/community/CommunityHelpWiki?action=userprefs&sub=notification and edit the subscriptions manually
#ubuntu-doc 2015-05-11
<pmatulis> yep
#ubuntu-doc 2015-05-17
<Vazhnov> Hi! Sorry for my English. I want add to https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Installation/FromUSBStick#Booting_the_Computer_from_USB link to boot-keys.org. I registered on wiki, but I don't want somebody think what I am spammer :)
#ubuntu-doc 2016-05-18
<Guest39301> Am I right, if I want to contribute with a new solution?
<Guest39301> Or do I have to register at ubuntu wiki?
<pmatulis> what?
#ubuntu-doc 2016-05-19
<crocodilehunter> anyone for ZFS?
<pmatulis> sorry?
<crocodilehunter> Hi all. I am going to go through the openZFS documentation in an attempt to use ZFS to boot into / 'root' (for ubuntu 16.04). If I can discover a repeatable method, I hope to document it, hopefully to be used for official documentation. if someone could point me in the right direction for ubuntu doc contribution guidelines, i would appreciate it. i am new to irc, but ping me if you can help. have a great day! :)
#ubuntu-doc 2017-05-16
<uzakov> Hi, had a question regarding adding material to Ubuntu wiki
<uzakov> I noticed that https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BasicSecurity is a bit dated and missing some essential info imho. How can one make a suggestion?
#ubuntu-doc 2020-05-15
<pulkitkrishna> Hello I wanted to help with ubuntu documentation. How should I start?
