#ubuntu-manual 2010-02-22
<humphreybc> hiii everyone
<godbyk> hey, humphreybc.
<humphreybc> how are we going? get some sleep?
<godbyk> yep, I got some sleep.
<godbyk> now I have to decide if I'm going to just stay up 'til 1200UTC for my talk and then nap afterward or try to nap beforehand. :)
<humphreybc> that's what i have to decide. go to bed and wake up at 3am, then stay up for the rest of the day, or stay up till 3am and push on all day with no sleep
<humphreybc> the second set of talks are on the same day as my first set... first set start at 4am tuesday, second set start at 5pm that same day. so i should probably get some sleep tonight :S
<humphreybc> it's gonna be a LONG day tomorrow
<godbyk> agreed.
<humphreybc> might go to the supermarket and stock up on energy drinks
<humphreybc> i need to finish my slides
<godbyk> ditto
<godbyk> gonna head to the grocery store, too.
<humphreybc> lol
<humphreybc> it'll be interesting to see how many people actually show up to 48 hours
<humphreybc> and also, _what_ types of people
<humphreybc> godbyk: i see your new "godbyk-android" handle, nice! I'll have a "humphreybc-android" handle later this week :P
<humphreybc> godbyk: i don't know how much of a music buff you are, but can android handle FLAC?
<godbyk> I'm not sure if it does FLAC or not, I haven't tried.
<humphreybc> btw guys, some cool stuff... the manual was mentioned in the UK podcast last week, http://podcast.ubuntu-uk.org/
<humphreybc> (see underneath the photo of the two boys, "Manual without jargon!"
<humphreybc> and also, omgubuntu.co.uk is covering the 48 hours event live
<humphreybc> Joey is putting up a banner on his site, he's already announced it today and tomorrow he'll join us in some sessions and do some live blogging of it :)
<humphreybc> so no pressure on the teachers or anything xD
<godbyk> cool
<humphreybc> godbyk: i'm just pushing my new slides in the branch. could you add your slides and handout to it as well, and then host them all on your server?
<humphreybc> please :)
<godbyk> sure.
<godbyk> as soon as I finish my slides and handout. :-)
<jazz> hello?
<jazz> does this manual days begin now?
<jazz> hello?
<godbyk> jazz: Hey.
<godbyk> The 48-hours sessions will be starting at 1500 UTC.
 * humphreybc is proud to present the new branding for UMP: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual
<IlyaHaykinson2> hm. i like, but what happens when the title page changes?
<humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson I can just change them in the PSD source file pretty easily
<humphreybc> yes it's a well known fact I use photoshop :)
<IlyaHaykinson_> certainly; i'm not saying it's not possible. just seems time-intensive -- iconography is usually a bit less specific
<humphreybc> yeah i couldn't think of anything else
<humphreybc> :)
<humphreybc> it's certainly a higher quality icon than last time :P
<IlyaHaykinson_> heh. true.
<IlyaHaykinson_> *sigh* i'm always so bummed out after browsing a photo store's website. the lenses i want are soooo expensive.
<humphreybc> heh
<humphreybc> what lenses do you want?
<humphreybc> i did some new portraits yesterday, last 8 photos on this page: http://www.interesting.co.nz/portrait.html
<IlyaHaykinson_> some nice wide-angle ones. 14mm or so.
<humphreybc> (with my new lens)
<IlyaHaykinson_> nice. you shoot canon?
<humphreybc> nope, sony :D
<humphreybc> sony alpha
<IlyaHaykinson_> ah.
<IlyaHaykinson_> never played with it
<humphreybc> sony alphas are pretty nice
<humphreybc> i've got an older one that has fairly bad noise at high iso
<humphreybc> but the a900 and a700 are amazing
<humphreybc> my friend went into the store set on buying a canon and came out with an a700 saying the canon's just didn't even compare to the sony, and the sony was cheaper too
<humphreybc> :)
<IlyaHaykinson_> i am a nikon guy myself... so i barely know the other manufacturer's lines
<humphreybc> dutchie should be awake soon so he can update the ical with the PDF slides :)
<humphreybc> yeah it's one of those things, when you choose a brand you can't really switch because of all the lenses and accessories
<IlyaHaykinson_> exactly. and some of the choices were made for me (i ended up kind of inheriting some nikon stuff)
<humphreybc> ah well there you go
<godbyk> humphreybc: I'll upload the slides in just a bit.
 * humphreybc is trying to teach mum how to use skype, but her video is upside down in skype on ubuntu!
<IlyaHaykinson> skype on ubuntu never impressed me with being stable.
<IlyaHaykinson> of course compared to ekiga it's the pinnacle of perfection
<godbyk> humphreybc, dutchie: I've uploaded the slides here: http://kevin.godby.org/ubuntu-manual/talks/
<godbyk> I'm going to run on the treadmill. I'll be back in about 20 minutes.  (Then I'll clean up my slides and handout, proofread 'em, etc.)
<humphreybc> cool
<IlyaHaykinson> ok, time to sleep. see y'all in the classroom in several hours
<godbyk> back.
<godbyk> see ya IlyaHaykinson
<ubuntujenkins> humphreybc changing the resolution for quickshot is going well however I think we will have a dependency for quickshot in the ppa. It is http://willem.engen.nl/projects/disper/, It is only needed for nvidia, and I can detect,download it and install it but that means people can uninstall it when they are doing a system clean up. Do you think it should be a dependacy?
<humphreybc> can we get away without it?
<ubuntujenkins> it is the only way I know of to change the resolution "on the fly" on nvidia cards.
<ubuntujenkins> saying that I have just discovered that we may not need it, I shall work on that.
<ubuntujenkins> I could depend on what version on nvidia driver that the user is running
<ubuntujenkins> Also I have some window ideas that would be seen when you login to the quickshot user. http://imagebin.org/85984. Do we need something like that?
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: for the bottom two dialogs, why not post those in place of the first dialog?
<godbyk> forcing me to click OK (the only option) and them telling me you couldn't do what you said you were going to do feels like you're wasting my time.
<ubuntujenkins> makes more sense I might have to rewrite how the script works. But good suggestion.
<godbyk> also, should we give the user the option to manually change the screen res (especially if we can't do it automatically) and continue taking screenshots?
<godbyk> When you're designing the work flow, at each step you should stop and think, "Do I *really* need to bother the user with this? Can I do this automatically?"
<ubuntujenkins> nice I like it. That would only cover proprietry ati cards. I do have no clue on work flow thanks for the input godbyk
<godbyk> Finally, if you can't automatically adjust the resolution, but you know how the user could do so, provide those instructions to the user.
 * godbyk is happy his HCI degree comes in handy. :-)
<ubuntujenkins> Sure I think we shall impliment that. Thanks godbyk
 * ubuntujenkins is off to lectures
<godbyk> See ya.
<humphreybc> okay i'm heading to bed, i'm setting my alarm for 1400 UTC, an hour before the first session.
<humphreybc> make sure that dutchie sorts out the ical thing with the PDF slides
<humphreybc> and that the branch has the slides in them too :)
<humphreybc> night! see ya'll in 5 hours
<humphreybc> waking up at 3am isn't the most favourable of conditions for the human body
<godbyk> humphreybc: Neither is staying away all day and night (the approach I'm currently taking).
<humphreybc> hahaha
<godbyk> (Tried to nap; failed.)
<humphreybc> bummer!
<humphreybc> i got about 4 hours sleep
<godbyk> About now is when I've been falling asleep.  Sadly, I have four hours before my talk starts and I have to stay awake through it. :-)
<humphreybc> eeek
<ubuntujenkins> has it started yet?
<humphreybc> load up on coffee
<humphreybc> starts at 1500
<godbyk> humphreybc: I emailed dutchie the links to our slides. I'm not sure if he's updated the ical or not.
<ubuntujenkins> woops I knew that I feel like an idiot? got confused.
<humphreybc> godbyk: crap i hope he has
<humphreybc> he knows we want them in the thingy
<godbyk> I don't know how I can check.
<godbyk> I think gmail may be playing with time zones or something.  I emailed dutchie, and I got a response back from him saying 'thanks', then he emailed the list asking for slides.
<godbyk> but I can't tell if he emailed the list before or after I emailed him.
<godbyk> gmail gives me a different timestamp on the email depending on whether I look at it in my inbox or the individual email.
<godbyk> so I emailed him again a bit ago just to make sure I was clear that all of the slides (except his) are on my site.
<godbyk> I did add links to each session's slides to the wiki page as well, in case people have to download them manually.
<humphreybc> well it's 2pm in london now
<humphreybc> i'll facebook him
<humphreybc> what's the URL where the pdfs are hosted?
<godbyk> http://kevin.godby.org/ubuntu-manual/talks/
<humphreybc> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lernid/LernidEvent
<humphreybc> i wonder where dutchie is hosting the config file
<humphreybc> godbyk have you got lernid installed?
<humphreybc> might be a good idea to join ##ubuntu-cr and ##ubuntu-cr-chat
<godbyk> humphreybc: yeah, I do.
<humphreybc> fire it up and connect to our event
<humphreybc> then hit schedule
<humphreybc> i think the first class isn't there?
<godbyk> humphreybc: Do we want to join ##ubuntu-cr or #ubuntu-classroom?
<humphreybc> ughhh
<humphreybc> crap
<humphreybc> did anyone say which one?
<godbyk> humphreybc: also, you're right.. the first class isn't listed.  (though I thought it was earlier when I looked)
<godbyk> when I log in to lernid, it adds me to the #ubuntu-classroom channel.
<humphreybc> i think classroom yeah
<godbyk> don't forget -chat, too
<humphreybc> so in theory, at exactly 1500 UTC i should be given a voice in #ubuntu-classroom right?
<godbyk> in theory, yeah.
<godbyk> should give voice to all the session leaders/helpers.
<godbyk> though I'm worried about your first session not appearing in the list
<humphreybc> and if the ical stuff isn't working, then we'll just have to point people to your list of files. apparently if i type a URL in classroom it will open it in lernid
<humphreybc> okay i'll ping nhandler
<godbyk> did you find dutchie?
<humphreybc> nope
<godbyk> k
<humphreybc> that is a worry that my session aint in the list
<humphreybc> i wonder if the lernid schedule is tied to http://people.ubuntu.com/~nhandler/classroom.html
<godbyk> my question is: if the session isn't on the schedule, does the bot know about it?
<humphreybc> well nhandler's session has it correct in the URL i just pasted
<humphreybc> I *think* Jono set up the Lernid schedule for us a week ago
<humphreybc> hence why it might be out
<humphreybc> but the one here: http://people.ubuntu.com/~nhandler/classroom.html is correct
<humphreybc> and since nhandler is running the bot, hopefully the bot knows...
<humphreybc> i pinged nhandler and cjohnston already
<humphreybc> hi d0od
<humphreybc> we meet again :P
<humphreybc> godbyk: http://planet.ubuntu.com/
<d0od> hey HBC
<d0od> lernid working okay?
<humphreybc> hopefully :S
<humphreybc> the schedule is a bit out
<humphreybc> and we're worried the bot won't give the teacher a voice
<humphreybc> but we should be okay with a bit of luck
<humphreybc> guys, backup plan if we don't get a voice in the main classroom channel: we can either find an ubuntu member and get them to make us an OP so we can talk, or we can run the session from chat
<humphreybc> backup plan if dutchie hasn't added the PDFs to the ical: point everyone to the download link for the pdf :D
<godbyk> sounds good.
<humphreybc> godbyk could you check your logs from the training session we had for the bot, and tell me what channel popey said we should hang about in for members?
<godbyk> sure
<humphreybc> so is lernid supposed to magically change at exactly 1500 to display the PDF on the right, if dutchie has indeed added them to the preferences file?
<godbyk> humphreybc: #ubuntu-ops
<humphreybc> sweet
<godbyk> no clue about the pdfs
<humphreybc> hmm. why do i not like leaving it all up to a bot and an englishman
<godbyk> lol
<d0od> lol @ humphreybc
<godbyk> humphreybc: for your phone (whenever you get it): http://preyproject.com/
<humphreybc> I saw that the other day, but for laptop - they have an android app?
<godbyk> yep
<humphreybc> nice
<godbyk> humphreybc: nervous?
<humphreybc> haha nope
<humphreybc> classbot is running in the classroom channel
<humphreybc> and i'm just talking to some ubuntu members in #ubuntu-ops who are going to chill out and if it doesn't work they'll OP us
<humphreybc> 123 people in the room so far, but we started with 115
<humphreybc> i'm hoping more than 8 will turn up :P
<godbyk> cool
 * godbyk wishes he had some caffeine in the house
<humphreybc> you don't?!
<ubuntujenkins> I was there for ages
<godbyk> nope
 * humphreybc 5 minutes, fingers crossed!
<d0od> frak. i don't think Lernid is working for me...
<humphreybc> really?
<humphreybc> what's not happening?
<d0od> Phew! Working now
<humphreybc> nice
<godbyk> every computing device in my room just started making noises about five minutes ago telling me that your session starts soon.
<humphreybc> hahaha
<humphreybc> yeah i had two alarms set... imagine if i didn't wake up
<godbyk> google calendar emailed and SMS'd and it all cascaded to my computers and phone and everything.
<humphreybc> just got op'ed on the main room thanks to elky
<godbyk> seconds away.
<godbyk> cool
<humphreybc> yay it loaded the new page
<godbyk> humphreybc: you'll have to field your own questions since I'm not a session helper.
<humphreybc> ok hang on
<humphreybc> someone ask a test question in Lernid
<humphreybc> classbot!
<humphreybc> yay!
<godbyk> oh, wait, here we go.
<godbyk> classbot just woke up.
<humphreybc> did it do you though?
<godbyk> nice.. gave everyone voice but me.
 * godbyk pouts
<humphreybc> dw the members will OP you in a sec
<humphreybc> :P
<humphreybc> classbot hates you!
<godbyk> will classbot listen to me if I have ops?
<godbyk> apparently.
<godbyk> the feeling's mutual. :-)
<humphreybc> done
 * ubuntujenkins is on the worst wifi conection it keeps dropping
<kyleN> I have questions about the ubuntu manual talk going on but cannot send to channel since it is moderated.
<kyleN> therefore I'll note there here
<kyleN> QUESTION: do the pdfs have fonts for all the worlds languages embedded?
<godbyk> kyleN: They will, yes.
<kyleN> QUESTION: will the install CD contain pdf for all translations, or just for English?
<godbyk> Also, have you tried sending your questions to the #ubuntu-classroom-chat channel?
<kyleN> godbyk no I have not. thx
<godbyk> komsas: no problem. :-)
<humphreybc> d0od: omgubuntu is down?
<d0od> humphreybc: my domain provider is having server issues today
<humphreybc> bummer
<humphreybc> wutzara_: gidday
<wutzara_> hi Ben
<wutzara_> I'm a student for informatiks on a college in Germany in the second semester. I want to contribute to ubuntu.
<wutzara_> but for me it is very hard to get my feet in the door
<wutzara_> i had to learn many things before i can fully work with Gnome and the libraries
<wutzara_> its also confusing where someone like me can help
<humphreybc> godbyk can you explain to Koerich in -chat what packages he needs to install latex?
<humphreybc> wutzara_: okay
<humphreybc> so a developer manual sounds cool
<godbyk> humphreybc: sure.
<humphreybc> what did you have in mind for topics to cover for it?
<humphreybc> stuff like packaging? writing code in Ubuntu? Using bzr/ground control/launchpad?
<wutzara_> yes but also basic things like using the glib and her object-system
<wutzara_> stuff like actual projects and the key-person
<wutzara_> a red line how a beginner can contribute to projects in ubuntu
<wutzara_> in the way a developer can contribute
<humphreybc> hmm. sounds cool. I'll think about it some more and talk to Jono. At the moment we're fairly busy getting the main manual out, but we could work on it for 10.10. I'm sure Jono would be keen to help with all his opportunistic developer stuff :)
<wutzara_> okay these are only suggestions. thanks for your audience
<humphreybc> yep no that's no problem!
<humphreybc> it's a great idea!
<humphreybc> i'm putting all the other slides on slideshare like Ilya's one at the moment
<humphreybc> godbyk can you put your slides in the bzr branch and push?
<humphreybc> i'll add them to slideshare.net
<godbyk> humphreybc: they should be there.
<humphreybc> okay maybe i haven't pulled yet
<godbyk> I was just uploading PNGs of my slides.
<humphreybc> ah
<humphreybc> you don't have a .odt of them?
<godbyk> humphreybc: No, they were generated in LaTeX, so I've only got a PDF.
<humphreybc> ah ha
<humphreybc> you got a flickr account?
<ubuntujenkins> where has the chat window gone in lernid
<humphreybc> it should still be there
<humphreybc> perhaps you've resized it or something and it's disappeared?
<humphreybc> oh wait
<humphreybc> everyone has quit?
<ubuntujenkins> I can see every one using xchat
<ubuntujenkins> found the chat window :)
<humphreybc> groovy
<godbyk> humphreybc: I just converted my PDF to PNGs and wrapped some HTML around 'em.  (Old school!)  http://kevin.godby.org/ubuntu-manual/talks/latex-slides/01.html
<humphreybc> nice!
<humphreybc> that looks good!
<godbyk> hopefully the graphics aren't too large.
<humphreybc> should be okay
<godbyk> and it's nice to know I can still code super-simple html by hand still. :)
<humphreybc> haha
<humphreybc> i wouldn't put money on my ability to be able to do that
<humphreybc> been ages since i did HTML
<humphreybc> so how many people do you think have actually shown up?
<godbyk> humphreybc: I'm not sure.
<ubuntujenkins> get them to put their hands up between sessions o/ like a mexican wave :)
<godbyk> And I figure people will come and go, as well.
<godbyk> Attend the sessions they're interested in.
<humphreybc> yea
<humphreybc> what time is it in europe/USA during the second set of sessions?
<humphreybc> I mean Europe and USA
<humphreybc> :)
<godbyk> In central US (my time zone), the second set of sessions will start at 2200.
<humphreybc> okay so we might get some more people who aren't at work :)
<godbyk> As for Europe, it'll be an hour or two ahead of UTC.
<godbyk> (Or the same as UTC)
<godbyk> Only if they're willing to stay up really late.
<humphreybc> true
<godbyk> My talk will take place at 0300 in the US.
<humphreybc> so the second set we'll get europe and asia
<humphreybc> eek!
<ubuntujenkins> europe is and hour to 2 hours ahead
<ubuntujenkins> of utc
<godbyk> I'm going to have to go to sleep after my first session here. :-)
<humphreybc> yea that's a good idea
<humphreybc> my android phone should arrive by courier in a few hours
<humphreybc> so i'll play with that between the two sessions
<ubuntujenkins> sweet
<godbyk> cool
<humphreybc> my talk on ground control is going to be pretty easy, just point them to the video :P
<humphreybc> is dutchie here now?
<godbyk> did dutchie get hit by a bus?
<humphreybc> lol
<humphreybc> he just joined lernid apparently
<godbyk> ah
<humphreybc> I like it how Lernid uses the notifications to remind you of upcoming things
<ubuntujenkins> I do to its a good program
<humphreybc> needs some fine tuning but it's not too bad
<humphreybc> it'd be better if it used a non-monospace font and colour coded people's nicks
<godbyk> yeah.. grey on white is kinda hard to read.
<ubuntujenkins> good point I
<godbyk> and the monospaced font isn't the easiest to read either.
<humphreybc> indeed
<humphreybc> i might suggest that to jono
<humphreybc> apparently there's a new dev tho
 * humphreybc makes another coffee
 * godbyk sips his ice water and glares at humphreybc and his caffeine.
<humphreybc> didn't you go to the grocery store?
<godbyk> I did.  But I weened myself off soda a couple months ago and don't want to get addicted again.
<godbyk> Never started drinking coffee and figure I don't need another vice. :-)
<humphreybc> haha
 * godbyk is reconsidering that now. :-)
<humphreybc> android phone arriving soon!
<humphreybc> hopefully!
<godbyk> well, you're not allowed to answer the door in the middle of your talk.
<godbyk> .. or mine!
<humphreybc> you know it's early when you hear the rubbish being collected
<godbyk> yeah, they just picked it up here, too.
<humphreybc> crazy
<humphreybc> groovy, now i just let them watch the video!
<cjohnston|cell> humphreybc: Yes?
<humphreybc> cjohnston|cell: hey, don't worry we've got it sorted now. We were a bit concerned that the bot wouldn't give us voice automatically because the schedule in Lernid was missing the first session, but it's all working fine anyway. I got an ubuntu member to OP me in the classroom anyway
 * humphreybc is surprised that my dog, angus, is up so early
<humphreybc> told you my session on ground control would be short :P
<godbyk> :-)
<godbyk> what'd you use to record the video?
<humphreybc> who's next?
<humphreybc> gtk-recordmydesktop
<humphreybc> then i imported it into pitivi
<humphreybc> did some basic editing at the start and the end and also the middle where it downloaded the branch
<humphreybc> then i recorded my voice over the top of it using sound recorder
<humphreybc> imported that file into pitivi and then synced them up
<ubuntujenkins> kevin is next
<humphreybc> i have made videos before where i actually record sound while i'm recording the video, but i've found the quality isn't as good
<humphreybc> so i just voice over afterwards :)
<godbyk> be back in just a sec
<godbyk> back
<ubuntujenkins> anyone using lucid and ground control?
 * ubuntujenkins off to dinner be back in abit
<humphreybc> godbyk: i just saw at the bottom of Lernid "Slides have been downloaded"
<godbyk> Oh, really?
<godbyk> What do you think that means?
<godbyk> I don't see slides yet
<humphreybc> me neither
<humphreybc> i'm going to reconnect and see if it's changed
<godbyk> k
<godbyk> let me know
<humphreybc> nope
<humphreybc> doesn't work
<humphreybc> it says it's downloaded the slides
<humphreybc> also, edit preferences does nothing
<godbyk> I noticed that earlier.
<humphreybc> so we've had slides along
<humphreybc> all along
<ubuntujenkins> TommyBrunn  I have completed the resolution changing work in my branch of quickshot we should be able support all but ati proprietary drivers. We will need the disper package from http://willem.engen.nl/projects/disper/ to cope with nvidia in twinview not sure exactly how/when to install the package yet.
<TommyBrunn> Is it in the repos?
<TommyBrunn> If so, we'll just have to add a dependency once we package it.
<ubuntujenkins> no its not, ben did ask if we could try not to use it but its the only way to deal with all nvidia. We might have to contact the devolper about getting it in the quickshot ppa
<TommyBrunn> Hmm, yeah. We'll cross that bridge when we get to it.
<TommyBrunn> I'm going to download your branch tomorrow, and see how to incorporate your changes into trunk.
<ubuntujenkins> I was concidering wget and dpkg -i for the moment.
<TommyBrunn> That's what I was thinking too.
<ubuntujenkins> all I have done is added a bash script that runs on the click of the next button when in the quickshot user. The package must be installed by the original user as quickshot has no sudo privleges.
<TommyBrunn> We could add the quickshot user to the sudo group when it's created. There's an option in useradd for that.
<TommyBrunn> Whether or not it's sound from a security standpoint, I don't know.
<ubuntujenkins> I would think best not to add quickshot to sudo. currently the script logs you out 15 seconds after the resolution has changed as we have no button to comfirm the change has worked. There are comments in the bash file in quickshot/bin as to thoughts on the windows
<TommyBrunn> Alright. I'll have a look at it in the morning.
<ubuntujenkins> Have you looked at the terminal in the quickshot user? mine shows as $ there is no quickshot@mypc$ .
<TommyBrunn> Yeah. I saw that. I don't know why though.
<ubuntujenkins> cool thanks, I shall be around for 60% of tomorrow if you have any questions.
<ubuntujenkins> have a fun evening
<TommyBrunn> You too
<ubuntujenkins> its only been tested on nvidia btw. I can see bug reports starting :)
<TommyBrunn> Haha. I'll give it a go on my intel chip, and see what happens.
<ubuntujenkins> I will be interested it works in theory :)
<ubuntujenkins> off to german be back in a while
<godbyk> humphreybc, dutchie: I'm going to get some sleep now.
<humphreybc> sounds like a plan!
<godbyk> dutchie: I'll catch your presentation the second time 'round.
<humphreybc> good work godbyk, nice presentation :)
<godbyk> humphreybc: thanks.
<dutchie> godbyk: no worries
<cjohnston|cell> humphreybc dutchie any issues?
<humphreybc> nope, we're going good :D
<cjohnston|cell> Awesome
<cjohnston|cell> Ping me if you need anything.
<humphreybc> aaaand my HTC Magic Android phone just arrived
<dutchie> show-off
<dutchie> which is the magic?
<dutchie> the slippy open one? with
<humphreybc> not sure
<dutchie> the actual keyboard?
<humphreybc> it doesn't slide open
<dutchie> ah, that one
<dutchie> http://www.htc.com/www/product/magic/overview.html :)
<humphreybc> yep
 * dutchie was thinking of http://www.htc.com/www/product/dream/overview.html
<humphreybc> apparently some people think it's better than the hero
<humphreybc> which is their newest one
<humphreybc> it's sitting beside me still in the packaging
<yusuf> Can anyone help me with this compile error (trying to compile the ubuntu-manual)
<yusuf> ! LaTeX Error: File `xifthen.sty' not found.
<manualbot> yusuf: Error: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :)
<humphreybc> dutchie: android can run without sim?
<dutchie> erm, maybe
<humphreybc> i dont actually have one ye
<dutchie> one easy way to find out :)
 * thorwil punches evince in the face
<humphreybc> apparently it does need a sim card before you can do anything
<humphreybc> damn
<humphreybc> i have to wait till after my talk now!
<humphreybc> oh well it can charge
<humphreybc> :)
<thorwil> evince somehow screws up rendering the title font. or inkscape messes up on export
<dutchie> humphreybc: seen the massive influx of lp team members? :)
<humphreybc> wait i just found a sim card! an old one
<humphreybc> haha nope not yet
<humphreybc> haha
<humphreybc> a few people is good
<thorwil> humphreybc: what's the before/after?
<humphreybc> huh?
<thorwil> influx, people
 * humphreybc finds it funny that the boot up time for android is almost as long as ubuntu on my laptop
<humphreybc> umm
<dutchie> it is quite slow
<dutchie> i've seen a good 4/5 join just in the past few hours
<humphreybc> we've had 7 people join since the start of the talks
<thorwil> nice
 * humphreybc has his phone working with wifi and my prepaid old sim card! yay!
<humphreybc> this. is. cool.
<thorwil> godbyk: it looks like something goes wrong on exporting the title set in Biolinum, once it is custom-kerned
<thorwil> godbyk: got jagged outlines on it, but on no other piece of text. added fresh and rough title text. no problems. then kerned it and boom
<thorwil> no, actually that's not it, either
<thorwil> with further testing it seems pretty random. i'm starting to hate evince
<thorwil> godbyk: converting type to paths in inkscape "solves" the issue. how cute that ticking "Convert texts to paths" on pdf export does not lead to the same result.
<thorwil> humphreybc: talking about "my" dog and "my" sim card ... third person fail ;)
<humphreybc> true
<humphreybc> haha
<thorwil> wow, the wiki header image is ... growing
<komsas> dutchie: I'm talking about dayly
<komsas> ups.. :D
<komsas> I was talking about every day build after sync
<dutchie> I think that's on godbyk's todo list
<dutchie> You can build for yourself at the moment, but I'm pretty sure godbyk wants to set up a build service pretty soon
<dutchie> he's been busy with organising this for now
<komsas> thanks, I only wanted to know will be it in todo list ;)
<humphreybc> komsas_ asked: " what you can suggest for other Loco teams, how to attract more contributors (translating, editing etc.)?"
<humphreybc> oops
<dutchie> humphreybc: have you read jono's book?
<humphreybc> nope
<humphreybc> but i've read "how to win friends and influence people" by dale carnegie
<dutchie> probably worth grabbing hold of a copy
<dutchie> free PDFs floating about the web (it's CC)
<humphreybc> yeah i have got one but haven't read it yet
<dutchie> cool
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk are we able to change \menuitem to \menu yet?
<humphreybc> godbyk's asleeping :P
<ubuntujenkins> ok thanks ben I will try compiling with \menu in.
<ubuntujenkins> it apparently works I will wait for kevins ok just incase
<humphreybc> cool
<ubuntujenkins> how do you describe the red delete note button in tomboy?
<dutchie> ubuntujenkins: you just did a reasonable job there
<ubuntujenkins> but to me dutchie that implies that the is a red button that says "delete note". Currently the manual says "To delete the note click the red (\) button" ( my version only)
<dutchie> looks fine to me
<ubuntujenkins> fair enough I am not the most awake at the moment. :P
 * ubuntujenkins has just pushed revision 300 :)
<ubuntujenkins> night all
<Eggplant1230> hello
<Eggplant1230> Is this where I get support for 10.04?
<Eggplant1230> Hello
#ubuntu-manual 2010-02-23
<humphreybc> boo
<godbyk> I'm awake again.
<godbyk> Give me a few minutes and I'll get caught up on the logs.
<godbyk> humphreybc: Keeping our fingers crossed the bot will wake up and do its thing soon? :)
<humphreybc> yeah hopefully!
<humphreybc> i've been playing with my cellphone all day
<humphreybc> there are apps for china
<godbyk> humphreybc: Yeah, I keep finding new apps for mine, too.
<godbyk> Did you see that Google released Google Earth for Android today?
<humphreybc> only for 2.1 i think tho
<godbyk> yay, ClassBot!
<humphreybc> lol
<humphreybc> i really cannot be bothered doing all these sessions again
<humphreybc> oh well, here goes
<humphreybc> haha
<godbyk> lol.. I hear ya.
<godbyk> Can I just paste my logs from last time? ;-)
<humphreybc> been up since 3am and i have a new toy to play with
<humphreybc> oh well!
<godbyk> did you get any sleep between the two groups of sessions?
<humphreybc> nope
<humphreybc> i did stuff
<godbyk> humphreybc: ouch!
<humphreybc> set up my new phone with vodafone etc
<humphreybc> so i've been awake for 14 hours now
<humphreybc> godbyk: link to the slides?
<godbyk> humphreybc: http://kevin.godby.org/ubuntu-manual/talks/
<humphreybc> am i doing good?
<godbyk> not sure.. I've been reading backlogs. :-)
<humphreybc> haha ok
<humphreybc> godbyk: nhandler wants my ODT theme ported to LaTeX-beamer ;)
<godbyk> humphreybc: cool.  we can do that.
<godbyk> I didn't have time to make a beamer theme for my slides, but I meant to. :)
<humphreybc> swell
<humphreybc> yeah nhandler just asked
<humphreybc> i think he fancies that theme for classroom stuff
<godbyk> I'll be back in a bit; a friend is on the phone.
<humphreybc> groovy
<humphreybc> can someone help me answer this please: How do we know if our computer has a ssh key? and how to find it?
<Takyoji> Applications > Accessories > Passwords and Encryption Keys. "My Personal Keys" tab, and there should be a key for SSH
<Takyoji> (although isn't it PGP that's used for Launchpad?)
<Takyoji> erm, well for signing, yes
<Takyoji> If they don't have a key generated, they can follow: https://help.launchpad.net/YourAccount/CreatingAnSSHKeyPair#Linux/Cygwin
<humphreybc> neat! well stick around because josh and Ilya have some really cool presentations coming up
<humphreybc> heh, lucky? i've been up since 3am (15 hours) because i had to run the first lot of sessions :P
<humphreybc> wait
<humphreybc> wrong window
<humphreybc> d'oh
<Takyoji> Well, works in either channel. :P
<humphreybc> true!
<humphreybc> guys, dutchie's session is at 6am his time, if he doesn't wake up (sleeps through his alarm etc) could someone please take over from him?
<humphreybc> perhaps that someone should read the log of his session he held earlier today to see what he was talking about
<humphreybc> just in case!
<humphreybc> i'm going out for dinner, any problems email me and I get it on my android
<humphreybc> (haven't set up IRC ping to ping my android yet)
<dutchie> :( too early
<godbyk> dutchie: I hear ya!
<vdquynh1> About 15 mns to wait.
<godbyk> If someone wants to be a guinea pig, run 'bzr pull', and then run the install-pkgs.sh script in the ubuntu-manual/pkgs directory.
<godbyk> Let me know what it says/does.
<godbyk> I've fixed it so it should detect which version of LaTeX you have installed.
<godbyk> It'll also make sure you have the required packages to compile the manual.
<humphreybc> im back never fear everyone :)
<godbyk> Hey, humphreybc.. run the install-pkgs.sh script and see what blows up
<godbyk> :)
<humphreybc> lol
<humphreybc> okay
<humphreybc> where is it?
<humphreybc> am i just blind
<godbyk> in the pkgs/ dir
<humphreybc> ah
<humphreybc> i see now :)
<humphreybc> run in terminal or just run?
<godbyk> in a terminal
<godbyk> so you can see the output
<godbyk> are you running TL 2009 yet?
<humphreybc> yea
<humphreybc> so far so good
<godbyk> k
<humphreybc> i had most except some bengali things
<humphreybc> entered in my password to install them..
<humphreybc> and nothing's happening yet
<humphreybc> i'll try again
<godbyk> it's apt-get installing them (but hiding the output)
<humphreybc> ohh
<humphreybc> i see :P
<godbyk> run tail -f install-pkgs.log to see what it's doing.
<humphreybc> = impatient
<godbyk> :)
<godbyk> I'm hoping Ilya will put the rest of these guys to sleep. Then I don't have to give my presentation again, right? :-)
<humphreybc> hahahaha
<humphreybc> oh the script appeared to run fine
<godbyk> humphreybc: awesome. thanks!
<godbyk> we'll see how it works for others.
<humphreybc> no probs, nice script!
<godbyk> Since I already had everything installed, it do much good to run it on my system. :)
<humphreybc> lol
<humphreybc> tell me some android hints and tips
<humphreybc> how can i get IRC pings sent to my phone?
<IlyaHaykinson> humphreybc: install IRC on your phone
<godbyk> humphreybc: I have AndChat installed on my phone. It's an IRC client.
<godbyk> I haven't looked at other IRC clients yet, so it may suck in comparison.
<humphreybc> yeah but i want to hook it up with the notifications thing in android
<humphreybc> i've got AndChat as well
<humphreybc> can't work out how to connect to a channel. i'm in irc.freenode.net tho
<godbyk> humphreybc: type /join #ubuntu-manual
<humphreybc> lol i knew it would be simple
<humphreybc> and can it run in the background and notify you of stuff
<humphreybc> ?
<godbyk> it'll run in the background, yeah.
<godbyk> as far as notifications, I don't know. never tried anything.
<godbyk> Hey, godbyk-android -- wake up!
<humphreybc> lol
<godbyk> yep, that made my phone go 'bleep-bloop'
<godbyk> and it shows as a notification.
<humphreybc> can i make it auto join ubuntu-manual
<humphreybc> ?
<godbyk> not sure.
<jazz> is this the  48 hour course channel ?
<humphreybc> :O
<godbyk> humphreybc: ah, yeah. you can autojoin by editing the server details.
<humphreybc> ah ha
<godbyk> jazz: The courses are in #ubuntu-classroom
<humphreybc> where do you edit those?
<godbyk> jazz: You can type questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat.
<godbyk> humphreybc: press and hold on the server name (in the list), then hit edit
<jazz> godbyk,  how can i have two windows open to see both class and chat? (im new sorry)
<jazz> x chat btw is whatim using
<godbyk> jazz: Are you using Lernid?  What program are you using to chat with?
<jazz> x chat
<godbyk> You should be able to join both channel and they'll each be in their own tab.
<godbyk> jazz: I would recommend using lernid for the classroom stuff, though. Makes it easier because you can follow along with the slides.
<godbyk> jazz: See the lernid installation instructions at the bottom of this page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/48hours#preview
<humphreybc-andro> Hi!
<jazz> how much did i miss so far?
<godbyk> jazz: Ilya's writing style session is just about to finish.
<godbyk> jazz: Next up, humphreybc Will cover social media stuff, and then my session on LaTeX will start after that.
<humphreybc-htc> Cool
<humphreybc> humphreybc-htc: ping!
<godbyk-android> humphreybc-htc: yeah
<humphreybc> phone keeps disconnecting from wifi in my room
<godbyk-android> humphreybc-htc: now your phone can talk to my phone
<jazz> i sorry i missed out once again, i was on facebook and seen the post, BTW how do i update the software  center? i seen there was a update from the facebook post?
<godbyk> jazz: Are you trying to install lernid or do something else?
<humphreybc> no tab autocompletion for andchat?
<jazz> humphreybc,  i've been trying all day to log in i geto bad wifi here too anything uincer 51% and im dead in the water
<humphreybc-htc> Cool
<humphreybc-htc> Heh
<IlyaHaykinson> alright folks, good nite :) my sessions are done! :)
<humphreybc-htc> Night!
<jazz> godbyk,  not atm,,,i need to wait till i get a decent connection, i seen a post about new updates to  the software center
<humphreybc> humphreybc-htc: ping
<humphreybc> yay!
<humphreybc> godbyk: do you find android slows down after a while when stuff has been running for a while?
<humphreybc> hehe, godbyk-android ping
<humphreybc> godbyk-android ping
<humphreybc> godbyk-android ping
<humphreybc> godbyk-android ping
<humphreybc> godbyk-android ping
<humphreybc> phone going crazy?
<humphreybc> how much bandwidth does it use to keep IRC running on android?
<godbyk> heh.. wasn't going crazy then because the irc client had the focus.  (so it didn't generate  notification.)
<humphreybc> ohhh
<godbyk> shouldn't require much bandwidth at all, I wouldn't think.
<godbyk> but I don't really know. it's connected to my wireless connection and I never have to worry about it.
<humphreybc> ive only got 100mb a month on 3G
<humphreybc> might upgrade to 1GB if that's not enough
<godbyk> jazz: I'm sorry.  I haven't used the Software Center much yet.
<godbyk> (I'm a bit of a command-line junky.)
<jazz> godbyk,  one day i learn all the commands lol
<godbyk> humphreybc: Mine's 'unlimited' (whatever that means).
<godbyk> jazz: Heh.. you just have to pick them up one at a time as you need them. :-)
<humphreybc> unlimited!!
<humphreybc> we dont even have that option over here
<jazz> i wonder is  my name taken, i just read that if  it is and not used in 60 days then i can ask a staffer...
<humphreybc> if we did it would cost hundreds
<humphreybc> #ubuntu-irccouncil or something jazz
<jazz> no one  in there
<humphreybc> that's not it
<humphreybc> it's similar tho
<humphreybc> ask in #ubuntu-ops
<godbyk> indeed
<jazz>  ok brb
<humphreybc> godbyk not a huge turnout here
<godbyk> yay! :-)
<humphreybc> lol
<godbyk> I could be super evil and start pasting porn site urls into the classroom so it shows porn on the 4 people who are watching.
<jazz> i got sent to freenode, i'll learn  never used irc b4
<godbyk> or one of those flash sites that just makes loud noise.
<godbyk> hey, thorwil!
<godbyk> thorwil: did you figure out the title page / font / inkscape / pdf thing?
<jazz> um... whats the freenode chat to talk to a staffer?
<thorwil> godbyk: the only way i get an export with the title with non-jagged outlines is converting it to paths in inkscape
<thorwil> godbyk: during my experiments, i had the same text in the same size coming out right, but once it is in place, i get the same shit again
<thorwil> so there's a bug of the worst kind
<godbyk> weird.
<godbyk> have you figured out what the actual problem is?
<thorwil> godbyk: no
<godbyk> lovely.
<godbyk> It'd be nice if inkscape could export to PDF and still have things look nice.
<godbyk> I'd rather not have to open the SVG in AI to export it.  That's just lame.
<thorwil> godbyk: do you have acrobat reader around?
<godbyk> thorwil: yep
<jazz> hey i got a question on inksacep, you can make  icons  with  it right?
<thorwil> godbyk: let me export a pdf with the problem, so you can have a look at it
<godbyk> thorwil: Sure.
<thorwil> jazz: yes
<jazz> cool - thats actially what i wanted the software center for  when yhe update question came about
<jazz> i was going to try to learn how to make icons i want to make an internet connectivity with % rather than bars
<thorwil> godbyk: email coming your way
<godbyk> 'kay
<thorwil> jazz: for creating icons with inkscape, you should set the grid spacing to 1 pixel. setting arrow key movement to 1 px is also helpful
<godbyk> thorwil: wow.. that does look bad in evince!
<godbyk> let me look at it in acroread
<jazz> is there an  pdf how to on making  icons and themes? i would love to try my hand at it  for the community
<godbyk> thorwil: Looks just as bad in acroread.
<godbyk> thorwil: The fonts aren't being embedded either, fwiw.
 * thorwil expresses his apologies to evince and even takes the punch in the face back
<thorwil> godbyk: inkscape can't embedd fonts, but it should have turned all text to paths on export
<godbyk> ah, I see.
<godbyk> well inkscape should learn to embed fonts.
<godbyk> and also not make our stuff look so nasty when it converts to pdf.
<godbyk> (though I'm willing to concede that it may be a problem of pdf not supporting some required feature.. I haven't looked into it yet)
<thorwil> well, guess it's bug reporting time
<godbyk> yay
<ubuntujenkins> I may have the wrong end of the stick and It does mean that it isn't automated but could you not go file > print in inkscape and print with a cupspdf printer?
<thorwil> lol
<thorwil> ubuntujenkins: printing to pdf produces corect outlines
<thorwil> but is this text converted to paths, or relying on the font being embedded?
<thorwil> 25.6 kb ... that must mean text is not converted to paths
<thorwil> sadly makes this useless
<ubuntujenkins> I have no clue I am afraid.I have no knolwedge of fonts
<ubuntujenkins> Fair enough just a suggestion. :)
<thorwil> it was a good one
<thorwil> searching for "pdf export" delivers 84 issues in the inkscape bug tracker (launchpad)
<godbyk> oh, bother.
<thorwil> this is a candidate for "effects me to": https://bugs.launchpad.net/inkscape/+bug/437567
<manualbot> Launchpad bug 437567 in inkscape "PDF Save As dialog 'convert text to paths' option is confusing" [Medium,Confirmed]
<humphreybc> godbyk: you're up in about 5 :)
<godbyk> yep
<humphreybc> thorwil: talk to su-v on irc.freenode.net
<humphreybc> he's an inkscape developer
<thorwil> humphreybc: it seems our problem is reported already. maybe twice, even
<godbyk> thorwil: any work being done on it?
<humphreybc> true, but if it's urgent i can ask him if we can fix it soon or find some workaround
<thorwil> godbyk: investigating. one of the reports is a bit complicated
<thorwil> humphreybc: we have a workaround
<thorwil> which all doesn't mean asking him would hurt. maybe him, but not us :)
<thorwil> https://bugs.launchpad.net/inkscape/+bug/388257
<manualbot> Launchpad bug 388257 in inkscape "Inkscape 0.47Pre: PDF/PS Export 'Text to Paths' gives inconsistent results" [High,Fix released]
<humphreybc> what's the workaround?
<humphreybc> fix release?
 * humphreybc wow: "thanks, committed in 22567"
<humphreybc> it'll be funny when UMP has 22,000 revisions
 * humphreybc wants to know why the back button on my HTC Magic is on the right side of the device, instead of the left
<thorwil> i just wonder which release that fix will be in?
<thorwil> 0.47pre4 in Karmic
<thorwil> humphreybc: the workaround is converting text to paths _before_ export. while this is ok for a single version, it would be horrible with translations
<humphreybc-htc> Thorwil aha okay
<thorwil> sheesh
<humphreybc-cell> Btw this is my android irc client :)
<jazz> what is utc time and how does it translate to est? it's4:46 am
<thorwil> jazz: UTC is identical to GMT. it's the zero time-zone
<ubuntujenkins> Jazz est is 5 hours behind utc http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/na/est.html
<humphreybc-cell> Godbyk, how do you actually close an apple on android? It seems hitting home just minimizes it
<godbyk> humphreybc-cell: that's pretty much it, yeah.
<godbyk> some apps let you exit them if you pull up the settings/options button.
<jazz> thanks for the lionks on times guys..... bookedmarkd for later reading .:)
<godbyk> but I think android auto-closes them if it needs to.
<humphreybc-cell> aha ok. I don't want a tonne of background appear using all my memory. How can you tell how much battery in percentage you've got?
<humphreybc-cell> How many people are in the classroom? I'm considering calling it a day
<godbyk> only two people asking questions, at least.
<ubuntujenkins> I am there not sure I count :)
<humphreybc-cell> Could someone refer them to the logs for my earlier talk on lp? I'm knackered,19hours with no sleep!
<cjohnston|cell> Hey guys. Any issues?
<humphreybc-cell> Thank them for coming and tell them where the slides can be found too: )
<godbyk> Sure.
<humphreybc-cell> Cjohnston: nope all went smoothly! Maybe godbyk has some suggestions for the bot?
<humphreybc-cell> Godbyk, tab completion in andchat?
<godbyk> cjohnston|cell: Ooh, one suggestion.. Since lernid wants [SLIDE 0] to move to that slide, can the bot parse that and keep track of the current slide, then provide !prev and !next commands so I don't have to remember the slide number?
<humphreybc-cell> I'm getting faster.at typing. Fat thumbs don't help!
<godbyk> humphreybc-cell: yeah, type a couple chars, then press the search button.  if only one hit, it'll complete, otherwise give you a list.
<humphreybc-cell> Godbyk cool, seems to only work with certain nicks
<jazz> that the end of 48 hours?
<cjohnston|cell> godbyk: I think that would probably be something to take up with lernid to have it just [slide].
<humphreybc-cell> jazz: yep! Its been a long haul but we made it. Did you learn something?
<godbyk> cjohnston|cell: Bah! You're just trying to get out of work! :)  Fair enough!
<cjohnston|cell> Lernid and the bot have absolutely nothing to do with each other, so I don't know that it would be something we are interested in
<cjohnston|cell> I'm not the dev, so it won't cause me work. :-P
<jazz> humphreybc-cell,  yeah  i think, lol definititly going to read the  logs
<cjohnston|cell> I will talk to the bot dev and get his opinion
<jazz> cjohnston|cell,  hello
<cjohnston|cell> Hey ja
<cjohnston|cell> jazz:
<jazz>  utc and est dont mix lol  5 15 am  im spent . think ill move the puter to the bed and night stand next lesson
<humphreybc-cell> jazz: great! As long as its been useful :)
<humphreybc-cell> Aren't all lessons done now?
<cjohnston|cell> I'm still trying to go to sleep. People just won't leave us alone.
<cjohnston|cell> Gonna go back to trying though.
<humphreybc-cell> cjohnston|cell: us as in ubunti
<cjohnston|cell> Nite all
<cjohnston|cell> No
<cjohnston|cell> Work
<humphreybc-cell> Aha
<humphreybc-cell> Night!
<jazz> night cjohnston|cell
 * cjohnston|cell needs sleep. 23.5 hours since I woke up
<cjohnston|cell> Later
<jazz> well guys before the ambient day noise east up this wifi singanl....
<humphreybc-cell> godbyk: good free android games?
<jazz> how often does the classroom have events?
<godbyk> humphreybc-cell: not sure yet.  I don't play games too often, so I haven't looked for them yet.
<humphreybc-cell> jazz: quite often. Python stuff this week
<humphreybc-cell> godbyk: fair buff!
<humphreybc-cell> Ugh
<jazz>  oooh i am learnign  python actually
<ubuntujenkins> humphreybc-cell is there any small jobs that need doing, I am waiting for ilya to split the open office section, I think he has been busy with 48 hours
<humphreybc-cell> Still getting used to android text thing
<jazz> well teaching myself and began earlier to day so aint made much progress  yet
<humphreybc-cell> ubuntujenkins: twitter facebook need updating, wiki needs tidying, remove 48hours from wiki header and replace with quickshot
<jazz> when is python sessions?
<humphreybc-cell> Style guide needs reorganizing and tech help needs more ground control documentation
<ubuntujenkins> ok I will start on the wiki this afternoon. If you make me an admin I can do the facebook group I need to get a twitter account first.
<humphreybc-cell> 4hours folder in branch needs to be renamed to help
<ubuntujenkins> jazz https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom#Schedule
<jazz> thanks a million everyone.
<humphreybc-cell> I can admin you on facebook but no idea who is twitter admin
<ubuntujenkins> luke jennings I am in the group
<humphreybc-cell> Are you in the facebook group? Real name?
<humphreybc-cell> Ok cool
<jazz> i am in the facebook group
<humphreybc-cell> Just take new screenshots of the manual and upload emb
<ubuntujenkins> folder renamed
<ubuntujenkins> I will get as much as I can done
<humphreybc-cell> You'll find stuff to do. Bug triage!
<humphreybc-cell> I'm going to bed but am playing with cell, ping me if you need
<ubuntujenkins> cool thanks
<jazz> humphreybc-cell,  you still around or did ya go to bed yet?
<humphreybc-cell> jazz: to whats up?
<ubuntujenkins> I can try and help jazz
<humphreybc-cell> Yo *
<jazz> sweet then get some rest humphreybc-cell  i thoughever one left..
<jazz> i was just looking at the pages, i may be to mmuch of a newbie to actually help yet..
<ubuntujenkins> how long have you used ubuntu?
<humphreybc> sorry phone lost wifi
<jazz>  2 week b4 9/10 shipped
<humphreybc> what are you interested in helping with?
<jazz> well i can try at translations english to spanish...
<humphreybc> sure
<humphreybc> that would be useful :)
<ubuntujenkins> I have no clue on tranaslations I have to go to a lab but it would be useful jazz.
<humphreybc> godbyk: msn client for android?
 * humphreybc 206 facebook fans now, schwing!
<ubuntujenkins> sweet, ping if you need me and I will look when I get back.
<jazz> i am spanish, and at least being this new to linux i can still  try and help
<godbyk> humphreybc: there's some chat program that begins with an F, but I hated it after I installed it.
<godbyk> It was a bit too obnoxious.
<humphreybc> hmm
<jazz> so, with that then how can i get started on translations?
<godbyk> haven't found a replacement yet.
<humphreybc> ubuntujenkins: you're an admin on facebook now
<thorwil> godbyk, humphreybc: i've built the 0.47 inkscape release from source. exports the same svg to a pdf without any issues. no jagged outlines
<godbyk> thorwil: Awesome!
<godbyk> thorwil: Does it handle the transparency or gradients or whatever the other problem was?  (with the lynx's nose, for instance)
<humphreybc> okay guys i'm going to do a cool facebook status update with some stats from the 48 hours thing, give me some cool or funny stats
<jazz> a newbie trying to help with a newbie manual? lol
<godbyk> humphreybc: did you get a before and after count of team members via launchpad?
<humphreybc> sort of, roughly
<humphreybc> before was about 248
<humphreybc> after 271
<thorwil> godbyk: which file should i test with?
<godbyk> humphreybc: looks like we gained 11 (looking at the 'member since' field in the list)
<humphreybc> oh really?
<humphreybc> but some left too
<humphreybc> just older members
<humphreybc> should we call it 15?
<godbyk> thorwil: Try the Alpha-Title-letter.svg file
<humphreybc> we probably should have taken note of this properly :P
<godbyk> look at the nose of the lynx.
<humphreybc> but i just wanted to do a silly facebook update :)
<godbyk> it gets mangled during the conversion.
<jazz> how do you leave a fb group? lol i have a group i havd no idea i joined
<humphreybc> godbyk do you get any stats on how much MB was downloaded from your server in slides?
<godbyk> Hmm.. I can check.
<godbyk> Might take a day for the stuff to come through (since there were sessions after midnight).
<thorwil> godbyk: the result looks like having been taking from behind with a power drill
<humphreybc> [The Ubuntu Manual] "would like to thank everyone for turning up the event! Some stats: 15 sessions by 4 teachers over 2 days taking up 14 hours, 11 new team members, 36 new facebook members, approx 60 different people in the classes in total and 19 people at any one time, 102MB of slides downloaded and 110 views on the Ground Control YouTube video. Not to mention the UMP project leader being up for 20 hours straight!"
<godbyk> thorwil: yeah, what's with that?
<humphreybc> (I got 102MB by multiplying the total size of the slides (1.7) with the approx people who took part (60))
<godbyk> humphreybc: I don't have stats for the 23rd yet.
<humphreybc> it's very very approx :P
<godbyk> but for the 22nd:
<godbyk> 145.88 MB downloaded.
<humphreybc> oh wow
<humphreybc> nice
<humphreybc> more than i thought
<humphreybc> sessions on the 23rd had less people
<humphreybc> so 190MB all up roughly?
<humphreybc> would that be a good guess?
<humphreybc> haha
<godbyk> Looks like most of that was during my talk, since I had each slide as a big PNG file.
<humphreybc> ahh
<humphreybc> well that counts..
<thorwil> godbyk: that page is constructed quite a bit more complex than it would need to be
<jazz> last night i came in here, didnt realize the session were in the classroom,
<godbyk> Hold on and I'll try to see how many times the individual PDFs were downloaded.
<humphreybc> i wonder if we can get stats on how many questions were answered
<godbyk> Well, that won't count for much since we didn't use them for the first sessions.
<humphreybc> hmm
<humphreybc> estimate of how many questions we answered?
<thorwil> godbyk: would be a serious effort to get rid of all unnecessary transparency. especially as the lynx changes appearance on ungrouping it (wtf)
<thorwil> godbyk: so lets just forget about it
<humphreybc> 5 per session, x15, 75?
<jazz> these irc logs, thats every ubuntu  session held?
<thorwil> vish clearly didn't think of translations when layering text with gradients
<humphreybc> lol
<godbyk> thorwil: right. was just curious about what the problem was of converting it to PDF.
<godbyk> so that if we need to, we can avoid that same issue with future title page designs.
<thorwil> godbyk: just blur (which needs to be rendered to bitmaps) and likely gradients with transparency. layering shapes like no tomorrow is also asking for trouble
<godbyk> thorwil: gotcha.
<vish> thorwil: pfff.. translations ;p
<humphreybc> http://humphreybc.wordpress.com/2010/02/23/48-hours-a-success-i-think-so/
<jazz>  good night guys and thanks again
<humphreybc> night jazz
<humphreybc> we have so many people in our facebook team now
<humphreybc> facebook page*
<humphreybc> night all!
<godbyk> can any of you compile one of the translations with the latest bzr revision?
<godbyk> po4a-translate just keeps spinning for me.
<godbyk> ah, nm.
<godbyk> I think the problem is that there's a latex bug in the source.
<komsas> godbyk: same problem for me ;/
<godbyk> komsas: I fixed it.
<godbyk> Someone forgot a closing brace.
<godbyk> I just pushed the fix.
<godbyk> Should work now.
<komsas> godbyk: you are right :)
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk I don't want to get it wrong I can edit normal wiki pages but what do i click to edit "48 hours" out of the header on our wiki?
<ubuntujenkins> don't worrk found it :) thanks
<ubuntujenkins> thorwil did you do the quickshot logo?
<thorwil> ubuntujenkins: no
<ubuntujenkins> did ben do it?
<thorwil> yes, i think
<thorwil> ubuntujenkins: why?
<ubuntujenkins> Trying to remove all but the camera for an icon on the wiki
<ubuntujenkins> nearly there now
<ubuntujenkins> any thing I can do to help?
 * ubuntujenkins is bored :)
<kklimonda> so, I've actually decided to give a quickshot a try and it doesn't seem to work - do you need some help? :)
<ubuntujenkins> quickshot is in heavy delopment what happend when you used it?
<kklimonda> I got to the point when I was supposed to select a language and neither could I do it (Combo Box was empty and greyed out) nor did anything happen when I clicked next
<ubuntujenkins> Thats sounds about right, did you get the login screen when you clicked the login button?
<kklimonda> what login screen? gdm one? :)
<ubuntujenkins> yes the gdm one
<kklimonda> yes, I get stuck after I login as quickshot user
<ubuntujenkins> It is relativity untested that is as far as we have got
<ubuntujenkins> TommyBrunn and Humphreybc are the people to ask what needs doing with quickshot. neither are on now try the mailing list quickshotdevs@lists.launchpad.net . Could you run "lshw -C display" and "xrandr" and place them in http://paste.ubuntu.com/ that would help us out.
<kklimonda> so I guess if the login is as far as you got then this is expected: http://syntaxhighlighted.com/~kklimonda/stuck.png and the nicely done wiki page has mislead me? :)
<ubuntujenkins> The wiki page has mislead you, you are seeing all we have done so far
<ubuntujenkins> dutchie do we have the language codes for the languages we are translating to?
<dutchie> look in po/
<ubuntujenkins> the file names aren't the exact language code. I have a feeling some heavy googling might be needed.
<dutchie> they are as far as LP is concerned
<ubuntujenkins> fair enough I am looking for the ones that would be set as $LANG
<ubuntujenkins> dutchie hwo do I tell which variation of italian, dutch, arabic, greek, and french we are translating to?
<dutchie> it's normally actual French
<dutchie> for example, pt is portuguese from actual portugal, pt_BR is brazilian portuguese
<dutchie> etc
<dutchie> en_GB springs to mind too
<ubuntujenkins> The french thing makes sense but what about the 13 different versions of arabic? Which one is the main version?
<dutchie> dunno
<dutchie> I only ever see "ar"
<dutchie> there must be a main one
<ubuntujenkins> cool thanks arabic is the only hard one I am looking at which countries the translators come from.
<humphreybc-cell> ubuntujenkins: good work on wink and facebook. Did you find out who's running the twitter account?
<humphreybc-cell> Wiki *
<dutchie> we still don't know?
<ubuntujenkins> no I need to set up an account of my own I will check the mailing list I think its in there.
<ubuntujenkins> humphreybc-cell kklimonda was asking about quickshot and what help was needed
<humphreybc-cell> You probably know more than me. Point him at Tommy :)
<ubuntujenkins> walter set up the twitter account I shall drop him an e-mail.
<ubuntujenkins> when are we aiming to complete it for?
<ubuntujenkins> *quickshot
<ubuntujenkins> humphreybc-cell  are we aiming to complete quickshot by the lucid ui freeze 4th of march?
<humphreybc-cell> March 18
<ubuntujenkins> what do you have to do for your course as far as quickshot is concerned? I don't want to do to much an mean that you and tommy lose marks.
<ubuntujenkins> my python knowledge is still shocking :)
<humphreybc-cell> Mine isn't for my course, only Tommy's
<ubuntujenkins> cool hopefully tommy is implimenting my changing resolution work today. I might try and do some windows in glade as we need some to go with the changing resolution warnings.
<ubuntujenkins> one other question for you, what are we doing as far as languages for screen shots? one of our languages is arabic but there are 13 different versions of arabic and josh and i don't know which one we are translating to. will we except screnshots in all of them or not?
 * ubuntujenkins has fixed quickshots only bug so far
<ubuntujenkins> night all
<Takyoji> Had an error message when using groundcontrol. Report it (y/n)?
<Takyoji> http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a368/takyoji/groundcontrol-error-2.png?t=1266965401
#ubuntu-manual 2010-02-24
<humphreybc-cell> dutchie godbyk, you guys find android wifi strength to be a bit crap?
<humphreybc-cell> IlyaHaykinson: thanks for the testimonial! :)
<godbyk> Hey, humphreybc-cell
<godbyk> My phone doesn't have any problems with the wireless Internet.
<godbyk> (wifi, that is)
<godbyk> it does kind of suck as a phone, though -- only because the cell coverage for my house is pretty poor at the moment.
<humphreybc-cell> godbyk: cool
<godbyk> (I'll be moving in a few months anyway, so I'm not overly concerned about it.)
<humphreybc-cell> My wifi is bad but 3g is terrible. 2kb/s no kidding
<humphreybc-cell> Ringing them tomorrow
<humphreybc-cell> At the supermarket now though ttyl
<godbyk> humphreybc-cell: 'kay.  see ya.
<IlyaHaykinson> humphreybc-cell: yw
<humphreybc> android guys:
<humphreybc> settings > about phone > status > mobile network type
<humphreybc> what does it say?
<godbyk> humphreybc: I'm in the basement, so no signal at the moment. When I go upstairs, I'll try to remember to look for ya.
<godbyk> humphreybc: Oh, hey, it just found signal.  Says EDGE.  (T-Mobile)
<godbyk> I'm in a dead zone, though, so I'm not expecting to see much.
<humphreybc> hmm
<humphreybc> EDGE
<humphreybc> mine says GPRS which is the slowest network ever
<humphreybc> I expect it to say 3G or something, that's what my plan is
<humphreybc> i think vodafone are being a pain
<humphreybc> i'll have to ring them tomorrow
<ziroday> if its 3G it should say UTMS or something similar IIRC
<humphreybc> hm
<humphreybc> i ran a speed test today from my mobile
<humphreybc> not connected to wifi
<humphreybc> first go said 33kbits/sec
<humphreybc> second go said 16kbits/sec
<humphreybc> 100kb download file took 25 and 48 secs in each test, respectively
<humphreybc> that is ridiculously slow
<humphreybc> everyone run http://www.dslreports.com/mspeed on their cellphones, 100k file :)
<humphreybc> please :)
<godbyk> humphreybc: I'll have to give that a shot when I'm not in my basement. :)
<humphreybc> haha
<humphreybc> you're not in your mum's basement are you..
<godbyk> nope, my own. :)
<humphreybc> that's good. are you married?
<humphreybc> a mrs godbyk? haha
<godbyk> nope, not married. enjoying the bachelor's life. :-)
<humphreybc> fair enough!
<humphreybc> anyone know how you can update the version of android on your phone prematurely (before the official release)
<humphreybc> 2.1 is out and about, but not released for my phone till later this year
<humphreybc> 2.1 has PDF support so i can read the manual...
<humphreybc> but i'm still on 1.5
<godbyk> humphreybc: what pdf support?
<humphreybc> gah
<humphreybc> http://forum.vodafone.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=47360
<humphreybc> seems to depend whether you're "with google" or HTC, or branded with vodafeon
<humphreybc> vodafone
<humphreybc> my magic is an "Vodafone Magic with Google"
<godbyk> I have a Nexus One, so it as associated with Google as one can get. :)
<godbyk> humphreybc: so what's the best pdf viewer for android 2.1?
<godbyk> when I downloaded a pdf the other day is barked about not knowing about pdfs.
<humphreybc> no idea
<humphreybc> haven't tried any yet!
<humphreybc> i read somewhere that 2.1 supported pdfs natively
<humphreybc> dutchie: idea for manualbot: a !Google: command
<humphreybc> native support in android would be nice
<humphreybc> they should have native text, pdf and flac support imo
<humphreybc> RAW files would be cool too
<humphreybc> just because i have a DSLR
<IlyaHaykinson> can someone pull & make? i am updating to texlive 2009, and that will take a while.
<IlyaHaykinson> and i'm afraid i broken the build or whatnot
<humphreybc> sure
<godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: Sure, one sec.
<godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: \textbox should be \textfield.
<humphreybc> what the hell, chrome
<godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: In ./default-apps/readingcomposingemail.tex
<IlyaHaykinson> godbyk: ok, fixing
<IlyaHaykinson> pushed
<godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: builds successfully now.
<godbyk> How goes the TL2009 install?
<humphreybc> anyone actually know how OpenID works?
<humphreybc> I just enter in my email and then bam
<humphreybc> or sometimes i just click "login" without entering in anything
<godbyk> humphreybc: ?
<humphreybc> okay no dont worry
<godbyk> It's supposed to take a url
<humphreybc> i do have to enter in my password at some point
<godbyk> then it bounces you to that server and you tell that server your login credentials
<godbyk> the server passes back data to the original site.
<godbyk> so the original site never knows your username/password, just the openid url
<IlyaHaykinson> thanks.
<IlyaHaykinson> tl2009 - 0104/2020
<humphreybc> godbyk: ah!
<IlyaHaykinson> so still quite a ways to go. :)
<godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: nice.  how much is it downloading? did you do the full install?
<IlyaHaykinson> i just ran the script; i think it decided to do the full install.
<IlyaHaykinson> maybe i missed an option, maybe i didn't -- either way i would have done the full install i guess
<godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: gotcha.
<IlyaHaykinson> downloading about 2GB
<IlyaHaykinson> ok, i guess i'll leave it to it's downloading, and go to sleep. l8r folks
<godbyk> See ya, IlyaHaykinson.
<godbyk> Of course, humphreybc disappears just before I run his speed test. :-)
<maiatoday> can anyone please tell me where to find out what else I need to apt-get besides groundcontrol
<thorwil> maiatoday: what are you intending to do?
<maiatoday> I just want to make the pdf from the code I got from bzr using groundcontrol
<maiatoday> I don't have any LaTex installation, I read about the install.sh script which is updated but can't seem to find it
<thorwil> maiatoday: let me dig a bit
<maiatoday> is there a page on the wiki to read to say what you need to do to set everything up? make reports pdflatex command not found
<thorwil> maiatoday: https://lists.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/msg00548.html
<maiatoday> thorwil: thanks, I'll go read and come back when I'm lost again
<thorwil> godbyk, godbyk-android: ^ that is still the most current info, right?
<thorwil> maiatoday: a word of warning: the tex live 2009 default installation takes something like 2 GB disk space
<maiatoday> thorwil: no problem enough disk space, I also found the prerequisites page on the wiki
<thorwil> maiatoday: i was under the impression that the wiki still mentions ubuntu packages. sadly the tex live version in Karmic is not sufficient anymore
<maiatoday> thorwil: I don't know how I got onto the prerequisites page, but maybe it is a good idea to have a link there from either FAQ or Technical help, I'll edit the wiki if that's ok?
<thorwil> maiatoday: where's that  prerequisites page?
<maiatoday> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Prerequisites
<maiatoday> oh now I remember I ran the script in pkgs and it sent me to the prerequisites page
<thorwil> maiatoday: oh, if you could add a link to that on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Help where it mentions a package, that would be great
<maiatoday> okidoki
<maiatoday> thorwil: the install_pkgs.sh script wants you to install LaTex2009 so is the package installation info on the help page still relevant. Can you still work on the project using the repository version of LaTex
<thorwil> maiatoday: you can work on the project without latex, as you are not required to build the manual
<thorwil> maiatoday: but if you want to build the manual, you need the 2009 version right from the source, no package
<humphreybc> i'm giving a talk to my old school computer class about FLOSS and the projects i'm working on
<humphreybc> what do you think i should definitely include?
<humphreybc> i thought they'd be interested in launchpad, quickshot, ground control, latex, compiling in lots of languages and the google lunar x prize stuff (other things i work on)
<dutchie> you are trying to land a probe on the moon?
<humphreybc> maybe
<dutchie> is it sekrit?
<humphreybc> haha nope
<humphreybc> www.lunarnumbat.org
<humphreybc> right off to do my talk
<humphreybc> later folks
#ubuntu-manual 2010-02-25
<humphreybc-cell> Just checking in, all going good?
<godbyk> hey, thorwil.. how goes it?
<thorwil> hi godbyk. all fine. and on your side?
<godbyk> not too bad.
<godbyk> trying to convince latex that I really do want small-caps in the running heads.
<godbyk> When I compile regular English pdf (main.pdf), it works fine.
<godbyk> When I compile the English translation (ubuntu-manual-en_GB.pdf), it works fine.
<godbyk> When I compile the German translation, it shows the running heads in lowercase, but not small-caps.
<thorwil> ouch
<godbyk> Yeah, I haven't figured out how LaTeX doing that. :-/
<godbyk> Any luck on the inkscape side?
<thorwil> regular text would be preferable to full-caps. all lowercase is of course not acceptable
<godbyk> Yeah, LaTeX defaults to having the running heads in full caps, which I think looks horrible.
<godbyk> So I have to beat it senseless to get things in small-caps.
<godbyk> (Though for some scripts that don't have small-caps, we'll have to tweak that.)
<thorwil> godbyk: the one issue i had is solved by using a manually build actual release version (instead of a pre ...)
<godbyk> cool.
<godbyk> have you been designing a new title page?
<thorwil> godbyk: if you follow the list, you should know https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Artwork?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=manual_cover_2010-02-22.pdf
<godbyk> Oh, I must've missed that on the list.
<godbyk> I like it!
<godbyk> That'll work a lot better with printer margins that what we had before.
<godbyk> (We don't have to worry about text getting cut off.)
<godbyk> Y'know, that design is simple enough that I may be able to generate that title page in LaTeX itself.
<godbyk> Then the translated title, author, and edition can be put in automatically.
<thorwil> godbyk: can you do custom kerning in that case?
<godbyk> Sure!
<godbyk> To kern in LaTeX, you can use the \kern command.
<thorwil> cool. the title needs it
<godbyk> For instance, the \LaTeX command (that makes the A smaller and slide on top of the L and pulls the T over, etc.) uses kerning.
<godbyk> You can say, for instance, "U\kern0.01em buntu" to add space between the U and b.
<thorwil> good
<godbyk> We can also apply letterspacing if need be.
<thorwil> godbyk: the title page design is put on hold for a bit. likely to be picked up towards the end of next week
<godbyk> If you drop the graphic elements into the bzr repository I can try to set up the title page and let you hack on it there if you want.
<thorwil> but it will most likely be only refinement, no big changes
<godbyk> thorwil: No problem.  I'm trying to get some non-Ubuntu Manual stuff done over the next day or two as well (now that the 48-hours thing is over).
<thorwil> godbyk: nah, nothing to be gained by that, currently
<godbyk> thorwil: Well, I think the title page looks splendid.  It greatly simplifies future work, meets the design requirements we laid out, and looks nice to boot!
<thorwil> godbyk: thank you!
<godbyk> (It'll also make the PDF size considerably smaller since the graphics are simpler!)
<godbyk> I with the Biolinium font were a little further along in its design.
<godbyk> thorwil: Aha! I see your email now.  That was sent during the 48-hours thing where I was mostly dead.  I did star the email to read later, though. :)
<thorwil> heh
<godbyk> What's the 'passage into light' comment mean? What ideas do you have there?  (I remember wolter's door title page.)
<godbyk> Something I haven't brought up yet, but I think we need to decide at some point is: I think we should include a version number of sorts on the copyright page.  (It could be in the edition/printing style or an x.y style; I'm not picky)
<godbyk> A new edition means that there is new content or that something has changed somewhat substantially.
<godbyk> A new 'printing' (or point release, in computer software versioning parlance), would just mean we've fixed some typos and whatnot.
<godbyk> So the initial release of the Getting Started with Ubuntu 10.04 would be first edition, first printing (or 1.01).
<godbyk> If we fix some typos and make minor changes, the printing number gets bumped: first edition, second printing (or 1.02).
<godbyk> If we add a few new sections for describe new software, we'd bump the edition: second edition, first printing (or 2.01).
<godbyk> When we release a book for Lucid+1, it would be titled Getting Started with Ubuntu 10.10 and it would reset the edition/printing: first edition, first printing (or 1.01).
<godbyk> Thoughts?
<thorwil> godbyk: i never saw a "second printing" in use
<godbyk> It's never spelled out like that.
<godbyk> If you look at the copyright page of a book, you'll sometimes see a string of numbers.  The first set of numbers refer to the year, the second set refer to the printing in that year.
<godbyk> (Since everyone prints electronically now, I have seen a few instances of 'second printing' spelled out in words, but it's still rare.)
<thorwil> godbyk: the "second edition" thing was meant to cover simple fixes, if need be. while it may lead to an expectation of deeper changes, my worry was about marking a changed version without making it more complicated than necessary
<godbyk> thorwil: Generally, a new edition implies more changes than simple typos.  (And it usually involves a separate ISBN than the first edition, though this doesn't affect us at the moment.)
<thorwil> godbyk: maybe calling it "Version" or "Release" instead of "Edition" would be better
<godbyk> I guess it depends on how often we spit out new 'editions'.  I'd like to avoid having a "fifty-third edition" two months in. :-)
<godbyk> That could work as well.
<thorwil> godbyk: i'll write a mail to the list about this
<godbyk> Okey doke.
<godbyk> It's not a huge deal by any means, we should just consider it at some point.
<thorwil> godbyk: "passage into the light" is my description of wolter's concept
<thorwil> so indeed the door title page
<godbyk> Right. I was confused by what you were saying about it, though.
<godbyk> You think that concept should be applied to the title page you created?
<godbyk> You think an alternative title page should be created with that concept?
<thorwil> godbyk: no
<godbyk> I'm confused by the question you directed to Wolter, then. :)
<thorwil> godbyk: after i shot down that proposal and called for not having a lynx, Ben suggested that 2 proposals should be created
<godbyk> ah.
<godbyk> we're back to multiple proposals again, then. okay.
<thorwil> godbyk: one with the door concept. i agreed on the assumption that wolter would take care of that
<godbyk> Gotcha.
<thorwil> godbyk: but if he doesn't ... i won't
<godbyk> Has anyone heard anything more on this mysterious Ubuntu rebranding stuff?
<thorwil> if, hypothetically speaking, someone here knew more about it, he would most likely not be allowed to speak about it. he shouldn't even mention it
<godbyk> Looking at my chat logs with humphreybc, he said it's to be announced today at 1800 UTC.  So I guess I'll have to wait a few hours.
<godbyk> True.
<godbyk> Do you know of someplace where someone could temporarily upload a PDF file so I can download it? He apparently can't email this PDF because it's too big.
<thorwil> godbyk: did he say anything more about it?
<godbyk> thorwil: Nope.  I don't think he knows much more about it.
<thorwil> godbyk: attach it to a wiki page?
<godbyk> Looks like it's supposed to be 20 MB.. might be too big for that.
<godbyk> It's for a completely unrelated project I work on when I get time (http://code.google.com/p/tufte-latex/
<godbyk> )
<thorwil> godbyk: try it. the wiki does allow multi-MB attachments. no idea on a limit
<godbyk> right
<thorwil> someday, if i ever feel like i have money to spend again, i need to get a book by Tufte
<godbyk> I enjoy them.
<godbyk> I got started with the Tufte-LaTeX project because I liked his book designs and wanted to learn more LaTeX.
<godbyk> Now I'm (currently) the sole developer on the project.
<godbyk> Nothing like getting thrown in the deep end of the pool to learn how to swim!
<thorwil> heh
<humphreybc> evening everyone, how are we tonight?
<humphreybc> or today/thismorning
<thorwil> hi humphreybc, all good
<godbyk> humphreybc: not too bad.
<godbyk> did you get the download speed info I sent you yesterday?
<thorwil> humphreybc: what's your source regarding an announcement at 18:00 UTC?
<humphreybc> godbyk, yup i sure did! turns out I actually did get 3G but outside my house
<humphreybc> so i didn't need to ring vodafone
<godbyk> cool
<humphreybc> it just seems temperamental
<humphreybc> thorwil: can't say sorry
<godbyk> humphreybc: Are there any updated UI diagrams for quickshot? I made some suggestions to Tommy or someone the other day about a set they posted, but I have no idea what direction they decided to go in.
<godbyk> (There were few more comments I wanted to make, but I didn't have the full overview of how it was all supposed to work, so I didn't get into them.)
<humphreybc> ummmmmmm nope there isn't
<humphreybc> i haven't had the chance to create any more
<humphreybc> if Tommy emails me the specifications, ie, what each window has to do
<humphreybc> i can mock up some new UI diagrams
<humphreybc> and then implement them in glade
<godbyk> I'm not interested so much in each individual window as I am the overall work flow of the user when she's using the program.
<godbyk> e.g., what are the paths the user can take through the program?
<humphreybc> ok
<humphreybc> i'll have to think about it somewhat and talk with tommy
<godbyk> 'kay.
<godbyk> Just trying to make sure it's all designed as well as can be since we're so early in the process.
<godbyk> (it'll be a lot harder to change fundamental design elements later after code has been written.)
<humphreybc> yeah totally
<humphreybc> you've seen this right godbyk? http://preyproject.com/
<godbyk> humphreybc: yep, I sent the link to you, in fact. :)
<humphreybc> haha okay
<humphreybc> for some reason prey decided my cellphone was missing today when i rebooted it
<humphreybc> and for the whole day it's been sending reports and running GPS
<humphreybc> but
<humphreybc> it's awesome because it has been working
<humphreybc> i'm just looking at the reports now
<godbyk> lol, nice.
<godbyk> I sent the 'activate prey' sms to my phone to test it once and it worked. I like it.
<humphreybc> yeah
<humphreybc> im trying to install it on ubuntu but it makes no sense
<humphreybc> "Download the package/installer and run it."
<humphreybc> "Once all files are in place youâll need to configure Prey, where youâll be able to choose between bothÂ operation modes. In case you want to use Prey along with the control panel (recommended), youâll have toÂ registerÂ and add your device to obtain your API and Device keys. Prey needs them both so make sure you add them correctly."
<humphreybc> all files in place where? run what? API and device keys? what!?
<godbyk> yeah, I haven't installed it on my laptop yet.  it's on my TODO list.
<humphreybc> when you work out how to do that, let me know
<humphreybc> it's a lot more complicated than on android!
<godbyk> yeah.
<godbyk> I could hug Seth Nickell right now.  (I'm reading his blog entries from this week.)
<humphreybc> who's that?
<humphreybc> have you tried out "WaveSecure?"
<godbyk> He was a UI designer for GNOME ages ago.
<godbyk> never heard of wavesecure.
<godbyk> http://blogs.gnome.org/seth/
<humphreybc> https://www.wavesecure.com/
<humphreybc> i saw wavesecure in the market
<humphreybc> omg gnome 3!
<humphreybc> who does he work for now if not gnome?
 * humphreybc needs to amputate his pinky toe
<godbyk> He founded his own company called Meatscience, Inc.
<humphreybc> lol nice company name
<humphreybc> wavesecure looks cool
<godbyk> yeah.
<humphreybc> https://www.wavesecure.com/wavesecure/android.aspx
<godbyk> so the wavesecure program has 4.5 stars in the market, but the three reviews it shows are 1- and 2-star reviews.
<humphreybc> "Choose to display a message on the device to prompt the the finder to return the device."
<godbyk> plus, I have to say: given the choice between a FOSS program and a commercial, closed-source one, I'm gonna go with the FOSS program.
<humphreybc> THIS PHONE WILL SELF DESTRUCT IF NOT RETURNED IN 5 MINUTES
<godbyk> lol
<godbyk> I'M COMING FOR YOU!
<humphreybc> the thing where you can wipe your stuff and backup all your SMS and photos and stuff is cool
<humphreybc> and if you download before march 31st, free subscription for life
<humphreybc> i'll give it a shot
<godbyk> yeah, I saw that.
<godbyk> the reviews in the market scared me, though
<humphreybc> "WaveSecure costs USD19.90 for a 1-year subscription. WaveSecure is available forÂ BlackBerry,Â Symbian S60Â andWindows MobileÂ platforms. It is currently free forÂ AndroidÂ users via the Android Market."
<humphreybc> what do they say?
<godbyk> lots of them say it's broken and that it locks their phone all the time for no reason.
<godbyk> you should glance through them.
<godbyk> it's like people only give it either 5 stars or 1 star, nothing in between.
<humphreybc> "WaveSecure was initially developed for Police and Military use!"
<humphreybc> hmm
<humphreybc> prey works okay for now i guess
<godbyk> the windows in quickshot don't need to be resizable.
<humphreybc> nope they don't
<godbyk> in the user setup dialog, centered text is bad.
<humphreybc> yea there is a tonne of stuff that needs to be fixed
<humphreybc> anyway, i've got a 7am flight tomorrow so i'm gonna get some shut eye!
<humphreybc> night!
<godbyk> fun
<godbyk> g'night!
<ubuntujenkins> does any one know if you can pull a specific folder of a branch from launchpad? (using bzr)
<ubuntujenkins> what are peoples thoughts as far as branches for photos I think to reduce stuff that has to be downloaded we will have to have forty branches(one for each language). Unless there is a way to pull individual folders. If they are called by the language code that would be easiest right?
<thorwil> ubuntujenkins: with screenshots in branches per translation, you couldn't build several translation from a single branch, right?
<thorwil> you'd need a checkout for every single translation you want to build
<ubuntujenkins> yes that is true we will have to merge each into main at some point. I was thinking as far as speed when the user first runs quickshot
<ubuntujenkins> Why don't I make a main screen shots branch and each day I will merge all forty branches into it so that people can pull the whole lot if they want?
<ubuntujenkins> be back in a bit please post your thoughts
<thorwil> ubuntujenkins: did you talk with the launchpad people?
<thorwil> this is clearly out of my expertise
<ubuntujenkins> sorry back now thorwil by talking tot the launchpad people do you mean the people in the project who deal with launchpad or the actual luanchpad people?
<thorwil> ubuntujenkins: actual
<thorwil> when things become complicated, if there are space and performance issues, if it isn't clear what will or won't work ... ask the experts
<ubuntujenkins> thanks I will track down #launchpad or what ever it is
 * ubuntujenkins well I am going to make forty branches for quickshot
<ubuntujenkins> duthcie you merge in the translations right? I am right in thinking you make a branch merge to a specific folder. so I can make the de (german) screenshots  branch merge to main/de/
<dutchie> I just do bzr merge lp:~jshholland/ubuntu-manual/manual-trans into trunk
<ubuntujenkins> o I need to look a bzr merge next
<ubuntujenkins> thanks
<wolter> godbyk, oh what happened to your website?
<ubuntujenkins> wolter I haven't replied to your e-mail but I haev not clue how to make admins on teitter feeds
<wolter> ubuntujenkins, what email?
<ubuntujenkins> sorry wolter wrong person
<wolter> ok
<thorwil> i have a nagging feeling that some readers of the mailing list don't pay a whole lot of attention or somehow have comprehension issues :/
<ubuntujenkins> why?
 * ubuntujenkins wonders if i misses it as well
<maiatoday> thorwil: (or anyone who can help) I managed to install LaTex2009 and I have it in the path but the install script in pkgs says I don't have it installed?
<thorwil> ubuntujenkins: running in circles. i started a thread stating a problem with the current plan of using "Second Edition" and so on. few mails later this exact same phrase is suggested as solution
<ubuntujenkins> I did actually see that. strange i think people read other parts and not the original.
<thorwil> maiatoday: tried using a new terminal instance?
<maiatoday> thorwil: yes, I did, and also checked with env. The path to the tex execs is in there also if I call one of then tex bins it works
<thorwil> maiatoday: guess it's an issue for godbyk, our man of absolutely central importance :)
<maiatoday> ok, I am just scanning the script to see what I can figure out, too, then I'll drop a mail in the mailing list
<ubuntujenkins> Right I now know how to make all of the branches merge into the right place. so the set up will be 40 branches all merged regularly in to screenshots-main. Do we want these branches in a seperate project, under ubuntu-manual project or quickshot-project. I am thinking ubuntu-manual project. It is just if we want to have 41 more branches added to the list
<ubuntujenkins> thoughts please
<thorwil> *yawn*, good night!
<ubuntujenkins> night :-)
<dutchie> ubuntujenkins: it feels like they should be owned by ~ubuntu-manual (the team) for ubuntu-manual
<dutchie> that will make merging them in easier
<ubuntujenkins> currently the trials are at lp:~ubuntu-manual/quickshot/screenshots-*
<ubuntujenkins> they are owned by the ubuntu manual, merging them all in is complex the quickest way is with a script which will not take long to do.
<dutchie> lp:~ubuntu-manual/ubuntu-manual may be better
<dutchie> I'm not sure how launchpad handles things like that
<ubuntujenkins> cool thats fine I didn't want to populate it with to many yet. I will start adding them. I asked on #bzr and with the help form there I worked out how to do the merges so we will have /ubuntu-manua/ubuntu-manual/screenshots-main organised by /language/chapter*/Picture...
<ubuntujenkins> * without checking people thoughts
<humphreybc> hey everyone, i've just sent an email to the ML asking for feedback from 48 hours on Ground Control, Lernid and ClassBot
<humphreybc> if you guys could have a look and reply to that message with your feedback, that would be great. especially the session leaders, godbyk, IlyaHaykinson and dutchie
<ubuntujenkins> humphreybc after talking to the nice people on #bzr I have come to the conclusion that we are going to have to have a branch for screen shots in each language. I will merge them all into one large folder organised by language/chapter*/Picture.... Otherwise there will be allot of downloading for people.
<ubuntujenkins> *branch not folder
<humphreybc> yep, that sounds good - i think that's what we thought we were going to do anyway
<humphreybc> did you ask them about auto merging into branches, and also permissions for branches?
<ubuntujenkins> cool I like to keep you up to date, What were you thinking about permissions?
<ubuntujenkins> as for merging I will have to write a script to get the layout that we want , its very simple once you know how
<ubuntujenkins> Also I think in the final release we should check people are using lucid so that we can;t get screenshots form any other versions of ubuntu
<humphreybc> that's a good idea
<humphreybc> permissions, either ask them to enter in their launchpad account details or create one if they don't have one (link to creation page)
<humphreybc> we could take some ground control code for that stuff
<humphreybc> OR somehow have it so that anyone (even if they don't have a launchpad account) can push
<ubuntujenkins> I think we should restrict it to ubuntu-manual members as the branches are at the moment. I think the use of the ground control stuff would be a good idea. is the licence of for us to use it?
<ubuntujenkins> *ok
<humphreybc> yep we can use the GC stuff
<humphreybc> so are we going to create the branches under ubuntu-manual or quickshot? or a whole new project?
<humphreybc> everyone, we have to start thinking about our ubuntu manual website too
<humphreybc> ubuntumanual.com is free i think
<ubuntujenkins> I though ubuntu-manual but now I look at it a whole new project as 40 odd branches is going to flood it. But we then need every one to join that project as well.
<humphreybc> yeah
<humphreybc> well we can make it a subteam of the manual
<ubuntujenkins> sweet that sounds a better idea "ubuntu-manual screen shots"?
<humphreybc> yeah
<humphreybc> i'll create the project page later on
<humphreybc> this weekend some time
<ubuntujenkins> cool thanks have you heard from tommy recently?
<ubuntujenkins> O and I found who has control of the twitter but we have no clue how to add admins.
<humphreybc> nope i haven't
<humphreybc> you probably can't add admins
<humphreybc> just ask for the login and password to it
<humphreybc> or change the password to "ubuntumanual" or something
<ubuntujenkins> I will do,  I will get him to e-mail it to you and i
<dutchie> humphreybc: one 48 hours summary email on the list
<humphreybc> dutchie: just saw it
<ubuntujenkins> night all
<jaminday> Hi all - anyone awake atm?
<dutchie> for certain values of "awake"
<jaminday> hehe
<jaminday> i'm just editing the chapter on command line and had a question
<jaminday> RE the usage of folder vs directory - are these two terms interchangeable?
<dutchie> yes
<dutchie> folder is more windowsy, directory is more unixy
<dutchie> but they mean the same
<jaminday> ah ok - i wasn't sure whether it was a nautilus vs terminal thing
<jaminday> in nautilus they refer to folders
<jaminday> but most common commands in terminal (e.g. cd, pwd) refer to directory
<dutchie> same reason as above
<jaminday> yeah got ya
<dutchie> people coming to ubuntu are familiar with "folder" from that other OS, so natilus sticks with the terminology
<dutchie> cd/pwd etc all grew up before "folder" was thought of
<jaminday> so could i say "The pwd command is short for Print Working Directory; it is used to find out which folder you are currently in."
<dutchie> yeah, sure
<jaminday> ok good. Folder sounds much more 'friendly' to read all the time than directory
#ubuntu-manual 2010-02-26
<humphreybc> okay everyone, what's our next biggest event coming up for the manual?
<jaminday> When is writing freeze again?
<humphreybc> march 18 :)
<jaminday> ok so about 3 weeks...
<humphreybc> indeed
<humphreybc> i think we'll be okay
<jaminday> yeah i think so
<jaminday> do you know how we are going for content now?
<humphreybc> yep
<humphreybc> i think we've got 90% of it
<jaminday> ah good that's a relief
<humphreybc> that reminds me i have to finish my partitioning stuff
<humphreybc> this bryan person sounds keen
<humphreybc> and he's experienced too
<jaminday> yeah it's good to have someone with experience in the area
<jaminday> hopefully he has sorted out the ground control stuff ok
<humphreybc> yup
<humphreybc> okay i take that back about the 90% thing
<humphreybc> we're still missing most of chapter 6, 7 and 4
<jaminday> Yeah i'm working on chapter 7 now and adding to it as i go
<humphreybc> hopefully the pace will pick up soon though
<humphreybc> okay cool
<jaminday> Ryan has done a good job but i think some things need expanding
<jaminday> The chapter on default applications appears to be getting quite lengthy?
<humphreybc> it is getting very lengthy
<humphreybc> blame Ilya :P
<humphreybc> mind you it's a large chapter
<jaminday> hehe
<humphreybc> and probably quite important
<jaminday> yes true
<humphreybc> our manual is going to be off the hook once we get screenshots in
<humphreybc> and when we have translations too, it's going to be super impressive
<humphreybc> i know mark shuttleworth himself is already impressed
<humphreybc> :D
<jaminday> wow that's great
<humphreybc> so we just need to keep up the momentum and work
<humphreybc> and we'll be right
<humphreybc> i'll set aside an entire day, maybe sunday, and just spend all day editing and writing
<jaminday> Yeah good idea. I'm doing that today as i'm off work
<humphreybc> godbyk: ping
<humphreybc> i just had an idea to motivate people
<humphreybc> if we could get latex to output a word count
<humphreybc> and then off that, we set a word count that we think would be close to the completed number
<humphreybc> and then on the planet or the wiki, we have some sort of small .GIF or image thing that basically gives a percentage of completion
<jaminday> ah yes that would be cool
<humphreybc> and then when people push significant changes, how cool would it be to see the percentage increase by 1% or 2%?
<humphreybc> and we can have it on blogs and things, as a live progress report
<humphreybc> i know joey at omgubuntu.co.uk would definitely have it on the sidebar of his site
<humphreybc> and we could have a word count meter too
<humphreybc> so you could refresh the page and see live progress! awesome!
<jaminday> yep i like it - if word count can be exported it shouldn't be that hard to put together
<humphreybc> yeah totally
<humphreybc> maybe something for dutchie to do
<humphreybc> he likes that sort of stuff :P
<humphreybc> i just asked joey and he said he'd definitely put it on the sidebar at omgubuntu
<jaminday> Do we have different LaTeX commands for terminal usage? ie text to be inputted by a user vs text that will be outputted following a command?
<jaminday> Ah it's ok worked it out
<godbyk> humphreybc: pong
<humphreybc> hi!
<godbyk> hey.
<humphreybc> underneath where i pinged you, have a read
<godbyk> ah, the word-count thing?
<humphreybc> yea
<godbyk> I think there are some scripts that attempt to do a word-count in LaTeX, but it's always fuzzy.
<humphreybc> latex can't just output it?
<godbyk> 'cause the scripts won't know, for instance, that \chaplink{ch:blah} produces "chapter X: blah" or how many words that contains.
<godbyk> A better measure would probably be to have people report the 'doneness' of each of the sections they're writing.
<godbyk> btw, if someone wants to register a domain name, I'm happy to host the ubuntu manual site.
<humphreybc> hmm
<humphreybc> yeah i'm going to register www.ubuntumanual.com soon
<humphreybc> .org is taken unfortunately
<godbyk> looks like that one's taken.
<godbyk> ubuntumanual.net is open and ubuntu-manual.com/org/net is open.
<humphreybc> ah okay
<godbyk> gettingstartedwithubuntu.com/net/org are all free, too.
<humphreybc> do you really think the commands matter? because when people write more, they'll also write more commands
<humphreybc> that's a bit long
<godbyk> true
<humphreybc> ubuntu-manual.info is the cheapest
<humphreybc> the others are like $10US
<godbyk> I can try this script and see how it goes: http://folk.uio.no/einarro/Services/texcount.html
<humphreybc> seems that anything with "ubuntu" in it is fairly costly
<godbyk> yeah, but .info is lame. I'd go with .org, personally.
<humphreybc> $15 a year?
<humphreybc> ubuntu-manual.org or ubuntumanual.org?
<godbyk> I think it's $10/year for me.
<godbyk> ubuntumanual.org is already taken, you'll have to use the hyphen.
<humphreybc> what provider are you looking at?
<humphreybc> yeah it is
<godbyk> that's just what dreamhost gets them for.
<humphreybc> the hyphen is okay though because we have that in our branch on lp and stuff
<godbyk> there are cheaper registrars, too.
<humphreybc> ah okay neat
<godbyk> hold on
<humphreybc> how does one send money overseas? if we got every single contributor to pitch in like 20c we could easily afford it haha
<humphreybc> i don't mind paying for it though
<humphreybc> but if we can get it the cheapest possible through your dreamhost thing and somehow i'll pay you back
<humphreybc> then we need to find some web designers. hmm.
<godbyk> humphreybc: http://www.aplus.net/domains/
<humphreybc> as for the percentage thing, i was thinking just a script that takes the word count divided by what we estimate the final word count will be, and then multiplies by 100 to get a percentage. then we just have it auto-generate a .gif image that we host somewhere to embed on sites
<humphreybc> similar to the ubuntu countdown image if you've ever seen that around
<humphreybc> i'll grab that domain tonight
<godbyk> I've seen that, yeah.
<humphreybc> i'll contact my teacher at my old school who takes web design classes, he might have a bright student who needs a project
<humphreybc> unless anyone in our project feels like creating a site
<humphreybc> it doesn't have to be particularly fancy
<humphreybc> i could make it myself but i probably won't have time
<godbyk> I'm not good at web design, so I'll leave that to someone else.
<humphreybc> and it wouldn't look as good as if someone else made it
<humphreybc> yeah
<godbyk> Once you get the domain name, let me know and I'll set up the hosting for it, though.
<humphreybc> groovy
<humphreybc> my idea is just to have the front page with three (or more or less)
<humphreybc> with drop down boxes
<humphreybc> the questions are like
<humphreybc> what language would you like
<humphreybc> are you going to be printing the manual?
<godbyk> We can autodetect the language from the browser.
<humphreybc> oO
<humphreybc> awesome!
<humphreybc> and could we have the magical build server actually build them a manual? or should we just host a heap of them somewhere
<godbyk> I was pondering that.
<humphreybc> because then we could have something that says "compiling your manual..."
<godbyk> I think we may have to host them, and I'll just try to keep the latest versions built and uploaded automatically.
<humphreybc> and a little flash icon that animates like ground control
<humphreybc> okay
<godbyk> (I don't think my hosting provider would like me to build PDFs all day long on their servers. :-))
<humphreybc> hehe
<humphreybc> well we could have a build server that just re-builds all of them whenever any new editions are released
<godbyk> right
<humphreybc> in theory we should get it all right for lucid so we never have any new "editions"
<godbyk> it doesn't take me too long to build them here.
<humphreybc> okay cool
<godbyk> true.
<godbyk> but there will always be a typo that gets by. :)
<humphreybc> yeah totally
<godbyk> or maybe something changes with a software update.
<humphreybc> it would be pretty cool if it was all automated with launchpad/bzr > build server > website > reader
<godbyk> that's what I'd prefer, yeah.
<godbyk> but at the point, we'd want to lock the branch down a bit, so we don't have people being evil. :-)
<humphreybc> so yeah, basically our website is all slick and is very simple
<humphreybc> yeah totally
<humphreybc> they have the download link on a big fat button right in front of them
<godbyk> are there any new branding guildelines?  (I haven't checked my feeds yet)
<humphreybc> and to the left is side bar with information about the project, contact details, key members, links to launchpad and some stuff about how someone can help
<humphreybc> nope
<humphreybc> if we make it good enough, canonical might let us use manual.ubuntu.com
<humphreybc> which would be badass
<humphreybc> i'll discuss that sort of stuff at UDS
<humphreybc> also in the future, we'll need a question that asks what variant they'd like, Kubuntu Manual, Xubuntu, or the Ubuntu Developers Manual etc
<humphreybc> i can totally picture it now
<humphreybc> people go to http://manual.ubuntu.com
<humphreybc> choose what they want, auto-detects language
<humphreybc> bam, they get a 200 page manual in their native language complete with screenshots and everything
<humphreybc> we could even integrate the UI and website into an application for the software center, sort of like a "manual installer"
<humphreybc> so many ideas!
<humphreybc> so many possibilities! haha
<godbyk> :)
<humphreybc> exciting times ahead
<godbyk> We have to get it all written, edited, and translated first. :)
<humphreybc> indeed
<humphreybc> we're getting there
<humphreybc> slowly but surely
<humphreybc> i'm going to put aside my entire sunday to just write and edit
<humphreybc> because i'm going to be pretty busy next week when all this starts: http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=1121293&l=5bd1a5210c&id=1171655966q
<humphreybc> http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=1121293&l=5bd1a5210c&id=1171655966 *
<godbyk> fun
<humphreybc> indeed....
<godbyk> my calendar is practically empty.
<humphreybc> fun!
<godbyk> though I'm supposed to be working on my dissertation. :-P
<humphreybc> how are you surviving?
<humphreybc> like food? power?
<humphreybc> rent?
<godbyk> student loans. :)
<humphreybc> haha okay
<humphreybc> what are you studying though?
<godbyk> human-computer interaction (HCI)
<humphreybc> ooh
<humphreybc> right i have to shoot off and grab some dinner before work
<godbyk> np.
<godbyk> see ya later.
<humphreybc> i'll be back on tonight but not for long because i'm knackered
<humphreybc> catchya
<godbyk> k
<humphreybc> if anyone needs me, just email me - it goes to my cell (love android!)
<godbyk> k
<thorwil> godbyk, godbyk-android: new inkscape latex export feature: http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_name=EEEAA170F9750D449D15AEF17CE7ED6D02401D15%40ewiex11.dynamic.ewi.utwente.nl&forum_name=inkscape-user
<godbyk> thorwil: Snazzy!
<humphreybc> everyone, this video is really important and relevant to our interests in the team: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oavMtUWDBTM
<humphreybc> you all need to watch it!
 * thorwil wonders why there's always some lady gaga in related videos
<humphreybc> haha
<humphreybc> alright i desperately need sleep
<humphreybc> night!
<ubuntujenkins> .me thinks python is very confusing and wishes TommyBrunn was around
 * ubuntujenkins_ thinks using glade at 800x600 resolution is not a good idea :-)
<dutchie> jaminday: do "bzr whoami"
#ubuntu-manual 2010-02-27
<jaminday> dutchie: ok... it tells me I am Jamin Day
<dutchie> can you tell it your name and email so your commits are recognised on LP?
<jaminday> hmmm... I thought they were? I'm sure they have been up till now. I only just started using ground control though and did my last two commits through that.
<jaminday> bzr whoami gives: Jamin Day <jamin@udesktop>
<dutchie> you want your email in there
<jaminday> yeah i was just thinking that
<dutchie> shouldn't imagine using ground control will make a difference
<jaminday> yeah me neither. Perhaps all this time it wasn't working properly and I didn't realise
<jaminday> How do i change it?
<dutchie> just bzr whoami Jamin Day <email@example.org>
<jaminday> i get "bash: syntax error near unexpected token `newline'
<dutchie> weird
<jaminday> i typed bzr whoami Jamin Day <jaminday@gmail.com>
<dutchie> try quoting your name/email
<jaminday> yeah that worked
<jaminday> i did  bzr whoami "Jamin Day <jaminday@gmail.com>"
<jaminday> i'll commit something minor now to check it's working ok
<humphreybc> hehe
<humphreybc> i just found out my computer science uses launchpad to maintain their course book for the python paper
<humphreybc> https://edge.launchpad.net/practical-programming
 * dutchie remembers why he is supposed to do translations daily
<dutchie> it takes ages if you leave it longer
<humphreybc> omg they use latex too
<humphreybc> our head of department has 344 karma on launchpad, i have like 28,000 :P
<jaminday> dutche: looks like it's working now
<jaminday> thanks for the heads up
<humphreybc> this is awesome. i was already going to talk to them next week about UMP, but now they'll totally know about bzr and latex already.... sweet!
<dutchie> jaminday: cool
<jaminday> jaminday thinks humphreybc sounds a little bit excited
<jaminday> ;-)
<humphreybc> seriously it's so cool, it means that my comp sci department will allow me to spend lots of time on UMP
<humphreybc> because it's all in the same direction as what they teach anyway
<humphreybc> and the paper, COMP150, is a python paper - and surprise surprise, Quickshot is written in python :P
<dutchie> :(
<dutchie> I have to get up in about 6 hours
<humphreybc> aw
<humphreybc> what for?
<dutchie> and po4a is updating very slowly
<dutchie> humphreybc: rowing
<humphreybc> ah
<humphreybc> fun
<dutchie> this is becoming ridiculous
<dutchie> I have had about 6 hours sleep a night for quite a long time
<dutchie> it's really taking it out of me
<humphreybc> go to bed earlier
<humphreybc> ?
<dutchie> I keep meaning to
<dutchie> but it never really happens
<humphreybc> heh, i was reading the book just now and there is a bit where there should be a new line but there isn't one, and i was like "this smells like latex"
<jaminday> humphreybc: hehe btw classic video you posted last night. I just twittered and facebooked it so all my friends can share the love
 * dutchie wonders if there is anything to lose in leaving it running overnight
<dutchie> I'm pretty sure the branches have already diverged
<dutchie> stuff it
<humphreybc> what's all this about branches diverging?
<dutchie> too tired to explain
<humphreybc> oh dutchie did you see my idea for the progress bar thing?
<humphreybc> lol ok
<dutchie> going to bed
<humphreybc> i'll catch you later then
<dutchie> and no, I didn't
<humphreybc> sleep well!
<godbyk> [OT] Does anyone know of any 3-way video conferencing software that works on Linux, Windows, and OS X?
<dutchie> godbyk: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-uk/2010-February/022912.html maybe?
<dutchie> see rest of thread too
<godbyk> Looks like OpenMeeting (http://code.google.com/p/openmeetings/) may do it.. I have to read their web page more thoroughly. None of the others mentioned seem to do three-way webcams, though.. just desktop sharing.
<godbyk> I'm surprised it's not a common feature by now.
<godbyk> If you can send my voice to multiple conference attendees, why can't you also send me video feed?
<godbyk> thorwil: I just wrote to the mailing list about the edition/revision stuff. Let me know what you think.
<godbyk> I'm guessing the vast majority of people don't care and are just tossing in their opinions because we asked. :)
<thorwil> godbyk: bike-shedding, as it looks like a trivial issue
<thorwil> godbyk: i thought it would be good to show that i'm very willing to revise decisions. but a number of repliers obviously didn't understand the issue
<godbyk> seems that way, yeah.
<godbyk> what do you think of my proposal?  edition on the cover (other than first), and Version x.y on the copyright page?
<thorwil> godbyk: i'm ok with your suggestion, although i would still consider to use "Second Release" and so on
<thorwil> godbyk: seeing Ben's reply, the case is closed :)
<godbyk> thorwil: Ha! Guess so.
<ubuntujenkins> do we have a meeting tonight? its on the wiki as last week but that was cancled
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: I haven't heard any mention of a meeting this week.
<godbyk> AFAIK, nothing's been scheduled.
<ubuntujenkins> thanks godbyk I think in bens e-mail he said postpone till next week. I will probably be around anyway
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk how would I show a screenshot in the manual?
#ubuntu-manual 2010-02-28
<humphreybc> okay, what needs to be done?
<humphreybc> i've got all afternoon to do stuff, give me some things that need to be done :D
<humphreybc> i might start designing the ubuntumanual website
<ubuntujenkins> sounds like a plan :-)
<humphreybc> man it's been so long since i did web design
<ubuntujenkins> I haven't done it for 4 years, dreamwever at gcse
<ubuntujenkins> humphreybc what are your thoughts on changing the user name from quickshot to ubuntu-manual?
<humphreybc> i think we should leave it as quickshot, we want to design it so that other projects can use it in the future
<ubuntujenkins> fair enough I just thought it would look better in the manual. you don't know how to a sign icons to windows in glade?
<humphreybc> no idea :P
<ubuntujenkins> my branch as nearly full resolution change working in python windows and all one tiny bit to add before wider testing.
<ubuntujenkins> I say tiny it may take days
<humphreybc> does anyone know why my photoshop has decided everything should be in grayscale?
<humphreybc> i'm trying to choose some green for the download button but it's only giving grayscale
<ubuntujenkins> I don't use photoshop sorry
<ubuntujenkins> night
<humphreybc> first mockup of our website: http://www.flickr.com/photos/humphreybc/4393245991/sizes/o/
<humphreybc> keep it quiet for now please people, don't want to let too many people know until we have a better mockup
<humphreybc> mockup #2: http://www.flickr.com/photos/humphreybc/4393304657/sizes/o/
<humphreybc> #3 - i've just tweaked some small stuff http://www.flickr.com/photos/humphreybc/4394088352/sizes/o/
<humphreybc> okay the files are in the branch now. i've also put the source .psd files too (yes I use photoshop, get over it)
<humphreybc> hey, who's around at the moment?
<godbyk> humphreybc: I'm here.
<humphreybc> godbyk: did you see the website mockup?
<godbyk> I glanced at it.
<humphreybc> okay, i think i've almost finished the design part of it
<humphreybc> http://www.flickr.com/photos/humphreybc/4394482088/in/photostream/
<humphreybc> i need some feedback though
<godbyk> humphreybc: what kind of feedback are you looking for?
<humphreybc> mainly layout feedback
<humphreybc> and also feedback on the process on the main page
<humphreybc> ie, step order, combo boxes or bullet points etc
<godbyk> k
<godbyk> let's see..
<humphreybc> click on "all sizes" to see the bigger verson
<humphreybc> version* at 100%
<godbyk> so it looks like if I were to go to www.ubuntu-manual.org, that I would see the home.png page, is that right?
<humphreybc> and also check out the "about" page - which is an idea of what the content pages will be http://www.flickr.com/photos/humphreybc/4394482178/in/photostream/
<humphreybc> yes indeedy
<godbyk> I would move a lot of the 'about page' content to the home page.
<godbyk> and put a prominent download button on that page.
<humphreybc> hmm, true, but i'm working on the assumption that most people know about it already
<godbyk> the download button would default to the latest edition and the detected language.
<godbyk> there would be a small link below the button that said 'other editions' or somesuch that leads to the current home.png page you have, where they can select a different version and language.
<humphreybc> but they might not want to download their detected language, if they're on a shared computer, or someone elses, or at an internet cafe
<humphreybc> ah okay
<humphreybc> hmm
<humphreybc> the reason i have given so much choice so far is to make it ready for when we actually have other versions in the future for Xubuntu/Kubuntu etc
<godbyk> sure.. and that page looks fine for a 'download whatever version you want' page.
<humphreybc> so you think we need more "about" on the home page?
<godbyk> but I think in the general case, most people will want to download the latest edition in their own language.
<godbyk> I would take the about page, split the 'about the project' section into two columns..
<godbyk> the current para can sit in the first column.
<godbyk> the second column would contain just a Download button and a link to select alternative versions.
<godbyk> the link would take them to the home.png sketch where they can pick their options.
<humphreybc> oaky
<humphreybc> okay*
<humphreybc> i wouldn't lay it out in two columns though
<godbyk> that way, when they go to ubuntu-manual.org (or whatever), they can get a quick overview of what it is they're downloading.
<humphreybc> how about have the page look like the current home.png page, but instead of the questions we have the "features" bullet points, then a download button with the link. in the second column there is the image
<humphreybc> the "collage" of pictures will eventually actually be a collage of title pages for each version
<godbyk> I'd prominently place the download button toward the top of the page where it's easy for people to find.
<humphreybc> but when our project actually does produce a Kubuntu Manual, and a Xubuntu manual etc.. what will the download button on the front page do? just download the ubuntu one by default?
<humphreybc> yeah but a huge green embossed button will stand out anywhere on a page with a gray and white colour scheme
<godbyk> unless I have to scroll to read it.
<godbyk> I don't want to have to scroll through bullet points to get to the download.
<godbyk> Some examples:
<godbyk> http://do.davebsd.com/
<godbyk> http://banshee-project.org/
<humphreybc> true
<humphreybc> okay i'll make another mockup with a layout similar to that
<godbyk> you're right in that most people will probably know what they're getting when they come to our site.
<godbyk> so we should give them a download button right off the bat.
<humphreybc> the thing with our stuff is that eventually we'll have multiple products
<humphreybc> and we can't force them to look for a small link to get the other ones
<godbyk> but we should also provide some text explaining what's going on to those who found the site via google or a link from their grandson or whatnot.
<humphreybc> true
<humphreybc> i was thinking of moving the about link to the left side of the menu bar
<godbyk> well, we can deal with that when the time comes. :-)
<humphreybc> next to home
<godbyk> http://www.mozilla.com/en-US/firefox/firefox.html
<godbyk> the sites I've been linking to all have large download buttons up-front (with links to other options in case they mis-detected something or you just want to download an alternative version), and also explain what their project is about briefly.
<humphreybc> yup
<humphreybc> righto i've got a plan in my head on how to shuffle stuff, give me an hour or so and i'll come back to ya :P
<godbyk> looks like ubuntu has updated their site recently, too: http://www.ubuntu.com/
<godbyk> fair enough. :-)
<godbyk> quick sketches are fine, too.  doesn't have to be pixel-perfect.
<humphreybc> i like pixel perfect
<humphreybc> makes it easy for the HTML guys to slice and make into a site
<humphreybc> i would do the HTML stuff myself but i've forgotten, and i don't have dreamweaver which i learnt on
<godbyk> well, in the end it's better, but for testing designs, it's not required.
<godbyk> (especially if we're going to just throw most of the designs away)
<humphreybc> we're not going to throw them away!
<humphreybc> what do you think of the wording in the feature list?
<humphreybc> the docs team are going to hate us btw
<godbyk> why will they hate us?
<humphreybc> because we're going to have this amazing website promoting our product
<humphreybc> because we're ultimately doing a better job than them, and they're going to see our feature list and bork because they have none of that
<humphreybc> but that's something to worry about later P
<humphreybc> :P
<godbyk> *shrug* they can always make a nice website, too. :-)
<godbyk> btw, did you register a domain name?
<godbyk> Feature bullet points:
<godbyk> * easy to understand -- I'd simplify the language a bit here (ironically)
<godbyk> * compatible -- not much of a bragging point, and no one cares
<godbyk> * flexible - we're not offering html5 yet, just pdf.  we can add this back if/when we offer html5 or other formats
<godbyk> * pictures -- an okay selling point (depending on how our screenshots turn out), but I'd clean up the language a bit
<humphreybc> haven't done a domain name yet, should do that very soon
<godbyk> * all in one place -- kind of a odd selling point. might be better if it were phrased differently, not sure.
<godbyk> * dozens of languages -- each reader only really cares about one language -- their own. phrase this to say, 'it's in your language' or something to that effect
<godbyk> * gpl licensing -- actually, we're using CC-BY-SA licensing, but I'd phrase it more as 'you're allowed to copy it and give it to your friends'
<godbyk> * no cost -- this should possibly be further up the list. and it's okay to say 'free', since it meets all the definitions of that word.
<godbyk> having said all that, I wouldn't fret about the text so much right this second.. once it's in html we can edit that easily.
<godbyk> once we have the text written, we can sic the translators on it and have a multilingual site, too.
<godbyk> (so avoid putting text in graphics wherever possible.. it'll make life easier for translation.)
<humphreybc> yeah true
<humphreybc> do you like the bullet points?
<humphreybc> it looks okay without them
<godbyk> oh, the bullets themselves?  I think they're unnecessary.
<godbyk> the bold text introduces each point well enough.
<humphreybc> yeah
<humphreybc> godbyk: http://www.flickr.com/photos/humphreybc/4393796059/sizes/o/
<godbyk> humphreybc: better. it's a little odd having to 'read past' the cover images to get to the actual text though.
<godbyk> would it look better if the covers were on the right?
<humphreybc> true, but banshee does that on their site
<godbyk> instead of 'alternative downloads' at the top, I'd just say 'downloads'.
<humphreybc> yeah good point
<humphreybc> i've been trying to decide whether we should have links to the project page/launchpad/planet UM/wiki etc on the page
<humphreybc> website* sorry
<humphreybc> or just leave the end-user site completely separate from our project stuff
<godbyk> maybe just put those links under the 'how you can help' page.
<godbyk> I don't think they need to clutter the front page.
<godbyk> readers won't care about those links.
<godbyk> and the front page of the site is solely for the readers.
<godbyk> also the text under the 'about the project' is focused more on the project team than on the manual itself.  I think the manual is more important (on this page).
<humphreybc> yeah true
<godbyk> basically, you're telling me why I want to download the manual.
<godbyk> I don't care if trained monkeys wrote it. :)
<humphreybc> i've noticed that our wiki is crap for information on the product itself :P
<godbyk> true.. but that's kind of okay for now.
<godbyk> it does need to be cleaned up and updated though.
<godbyk> some of that's my fault.  I haven't done a good job with keeping the latex/style stuff up to speed.
<humphreybc> lol that's okay
<humphreybc> the wiki wasn't really designed to be the selling point for the end user
<godbyk> right
<thorwil> hi!
<humphreybc> how's this: Getting Started with Ubuntu 10.04 is a comprehensive beginners guide for Ubuntu. It is written by and for users of Ubuntu and aims to help you make the most out of your new operating system.
<humphreybc> "The manual is available in over 40 different languages and features over 200 pages of information written in a clear and concise style to make it easy for you to understand."
<humphreybc> that's just for the text to the right of the image
<godbyk> hey, thorwil!
<humphreybc> hey thorwil!
<godbyk> "beginner's guide"
<godbyk> and the latter half of the second sentence sounds a bit funky.
<thorwil> humphreybc: how about just "... and helps you to make the most out of it."
<godbyk> I'll come back to it
<humphreybc> thorwil: i've been busy mocking up our website, take a look: http://www.flickr.com/photos/humphreybc/4393810569/sizes/o/
<godbyk> instead of "to make it easy for you to understand" just say "so that it's easy to understand" (or drop the phrase entirely)
<godbyk> thorwil: that sounds better.
<godbyk> the 'new operating system' bit was weird.
<thorwil> humphreybc: no all lowercase for the navigation, please
<humphreybc> thorwil: why not?
<humphreybc> i thought that was the "cool" thing to do :P
<thorwil> humphreybc: because a work of literacy is our context
<thorwil> humphreybc: see, it's wrong exactly because you think it would be the "cool thing" ;)
<humphreybc> ahh, i suppose you have a point then :P
<thorwil> humphreybc: you don't write titles in the document lowercase, so don't do it on the website, either
<humphreybc> kk, changed
<thorwil> cool
<godbyk> thorwil: ha! not that I'd use the titles in our doc as a good example of *anything*!  <grin>
<thorwil> humphreybc: that header image will have to go. which likely means i have to offer an alternative. well, later, perhaps
<humphreybc> what's wrong with the header image?
<thorwil> humphreybc: there are two reasons that will become apparent only in the near future
<humphreybc> http://www.flickr.com/photos/humphreybc/4393818663/sizes/o/
<thorwil> humphreybc: the sub-title has an odd layout and uses a font that has no connection to the style of the document
<humphreybc> oh yeah, i know the subtitle is too funky for us :P
<thorwil> humphreybc: there's the old title page design embedded
<thorwil> humphreybc: finally it's just a pile of stuff
<godbyk> humphreybc: plus, we'll want it probably align more closely with our title page design and other graphics.
<humphreybc> indeed
<humphreybc> well, that's probably the best icon i've ever made, so you're welcome to go ahead and create a better one
<humphreybc> because that's the limit of my icon making :P
<godbyk> also if we can keep text out of graphics, we can translate it (relatively) easily.
<humphreybc> I'm surprised neither of you have commented on the font yet...
<godbyk> which one?
<thorwil> quoting myself: "and uses a font that has no connection to the style of the document"
<humphreybc> it's Droid Sans
<humphreybc> nicest font in the world
<humphreybc> no no not that font
<humphreybc> i mean the one on the site
<humphreybc> anyway thorwil, this is going to be the website for all of the team's products - not just "getting started with ubuntu 10.04" - that's only the first in a series of manuals
<humphreybc> and each manual will have a different style, colour scheme etc
<godbyk> I think we can use the exact same fonts as we use in the manual.  I think they all allow for @font-face embedding.  Now whether we'd want to is another matter. I'm sure the hinting is miserable on many of 'em.
<humphreybc> i really really really like droid sans
<thorwil> humphreybc: http://troy-sobotka.blogspot.com/2008/07/why-droid-isnt-answer.html
<humphreybc> i know most computers don't have it, so we'd have to slice it
<humphreybc> thorwil: answer for everything?
<godbyk> 'slice it'?
<thorwil> humphreybc: no, just read it
<humphreybc> reading it, it's a pretty in depth analysis of a font o.O
<thorwil> humphreybc: regarding "and each manual will have a different style, colour scheme etc", i would really appreciate if you would take the design specification serious. this means it has to be changed if you disagree with something (after it has been discussed).
<humphreybc> the design specifications are just for the ubuntu manual, no?
<thorwil> humphreybc: what means just? it's the core
<humphreybc> does "Features of our publications" make sense?
<humphreybc> thorwil: for now we're only focussing on the ubuntu manual, right? but I am designing the website with the future in mind
<humphreybc> and no doubt stuff like the target audience will change depending on each manual
<humphreybc> for example, if we make a "Ubuntu Developers Manual" we wouldn't be targeting the same people as we are at the moment
<godbyk> humphreybc: I think for now, though, you'll get the best website for our manual if it's designed for our manual as it stands.
<godbyk> Otherwise you're designing for some future case that hasn't been analyzed yet.
<godbyk> and potentially compromising the current goals in the process.
<humphreybc> okay that's a valid point
<thorwil> humphreybc: ah, if you mean different style applied to documents with different aim, that's fine, of course
<humphreybc> thorwil: yep, that's exactly what i mean :P
<thorwil> humphreybc: i'm worried that you are too optimistic/ambitious, though
<humphreybc> ambition leads to good things, thorwil
<godbyk> thorwil: I'm worried that I have enough on my plate to ponder with just one manual at the moment! <grin>
<humphreybc> hehe
<humphreybc> don't worry, it's not going to be a fast thing
<humphreybc> i'm not going to go "hey okay now we're going to make X, Y and Z manuals" after lucid
<godbyk> As for the website, I'd suggest we focus on building the best site for this particular manual right now.
<godbyk> If we write other manuals later, we can look at how that will affect the web design.
<thorwil> yeah
<humphreybc> but what I am doing is setting up a team that can produce quality documents for Ubuntu and its derivatives. our current project, the UBUNTU manual, is forming a basis for us to do a lot of testing on workflow and that sort of thing. we're also finding out what tools we need and developing them as we see fit
<humphreybc> (Quickshot)
<humphreybc> so when it comes to making other publications, we'll already have a tonne of stuff in place and it will be a lot easier
<godbyk> Otherwise, you'll be designing for some other audience than the one we're trying to attract. And that doesn't work too well.
<humphreybc> then what will happen is "The Ubuntu Manual Team" as we know it will take on a different name, and oversee the sub-teams who are in charge of the Ubuntu manual, the Kubuntu manual etc
<humphreybc> godbyk: sweet, that's cool
<godbyk> That's all fine, but right now we have a pretty simple audience to appeal to. Why complicate that before we must?
<humphreybc> yeah i know, well, i have actually designed it to follow our current stuff a bit - i haven't added in any blue or anything P
<humphreybc> :P *
<humphreybc> i've based the design around login.ubuntu.com
 * godbyk likes blue. :)
<humphreybc> haha
<humphreybc> godbyk: do you find your android phone drops the wifi all the time and randomly switches to 3G?
<humphreybc> apparently it is meant to turn off wifi when it goes to sleep/standby
<humphreybc> to save battery
<godbyk> humphreybc: My phone keeps the wifi connection without any problems (that I've noticed so far)
<humphreybc> and then it downloads updates and emails on the data connection when it's in standby
<godbyk> but it's usually plugged in when I'm at my desk.
<humphreybc> okay
<humphreybc> hm
<humphreybc> see the problem i was having is it would go to data, use up all my data downloading updates/emails and stuff, then when i went out of standby to use it, it wouldn't auto-reconnect to wifi
<humphreybc> i think it doesn't like our router too much
<humphreybc> it used all of my 100mb monthly allowance the other day to download the 1.6 update
<humphreybc> grr
<humphreybc> so anyway, i set it to "never" turn off wifi - but now it's using a tonne of battery.
<humphreybc> never win. :S
<humphreybc> thorwil: other than your criticisms, have you got any good feedback?
<thorwil> handsfullbbiab
<humphreybc> lol
<humphreybc> i must say, it looks a lot better now than before i got your guys feedback
<humphreybc> is it just me, or does GIMP not have "blending options" at all? no drop shadows or anything?
<TommyBrunn> Nope. It doesn't have blending options or adjustment layers.
 * godbyk is quite content to remain ignorant of such matters.
<godbyk> I'm happy to leave that sort of graphics work to others, thanks.
<thorwil> humphreybc: background, nav-bar, padding are all alright in a general sense
<thorwil> humphreybc: the shading of the Download Now button makes no sense
<thorwil> oh, wait, "good feedback" ...
<godbyk> thorwil: lol!
<thorwil> humphreybc: you should give creating mockups in inkscape a try
<godbyk> I do like inkscape.
<godbyk> I wish it had better text-handling stuff, though.
<humphreybc> see, that's why I use photoshop over GIMP
<godbyk> (Although I've heard they've been adding features in that realm.)
<humphreybc> nothing ever looks good without a good ol' drop shadow
 * humphreybc still hasn't got round to using inkscape
<TommyBrunn> Drop shadows are a bitch to implement without CSS3 though.'
<humphreybc> the way I see it, I could try to use Inkscape or GIMP and come out with a much worse looking product - not because the programs are any worse than photoshop, but because I simply know how to use photoshop. Over time I would get better at Inkscape/GIMP - but why spend the time learning when photoshop works fine for me?
<humphreybc> This stuff was done on PS CS2
<thorwil> humphreybc: photoshop vs gimp is an entirely different thing from either of them vs inkscape
<humphreybc> yeah i know, but i'm just using those as examples
<humphreybc> do you guys think there is anything else we have to say on the home page?
<thorwil> humphreybc: does there have to be separate Home and Downloads?
<thorwil> humphreybc: where would Read_online go?
<humphreybc> yep, godbyk and i discussed this before you arrived
<humphreybc> well we don't have an HTML5 version yet
<humphreybc> basically on the home page, the download button there would detect the system language and download the right PDF for you
<thorwil> humphreybc: "how you can help" could be "Get involved"
<humphreybc> and the "alternative download options" link goes to the downloads page
<thorwil> ok
<humphreybc> where they can choose a different language if they want, or get a version optimized for printing
<humphreybc> because the detection might be wrong if they're on a friends' computer, or at an internet cafe etc
<humphreybc> should we mention that it's FOSS somewhere on the front page?
<humphreybc> i suppose it says that in the "GPL licensing" feature item
<godbyk> humphreybc: though it's not GPL, it's CC-BY-SA.
<humphreybc> true
<godbyk> GPL = software, CC = text.
<humphreybc> so i should change it to "CC licensing" ?
<humphreybc> i feel like we should have another section on the front page.... but i don't know what
<thorwil> humphreybc: you should first collect all information and options that have to be there
<humphreybc> thorwil: you should know by now that i don't do things logically
<thorwil> humphreybc: than you order that into pages
<humphreybc> i need a new sentence for the "Easy to understand" feature thing
<thorwil> humphreybc: and if you end up thinking there should be something additional just because, you go play some computer games
<humphreybc> thorwil: hehe, i don't play computer games, all i do is just work and work... O.o
<humphreybc> "Easy to understand - step by step instructions and jargon free" ?
<humphreybc> we need to emphasize just how easy we make it
<thorwil> step by step in plain language?
<humphreybc> huh?
<humphreybc> can anyone think of more features of our manual?
<humphreybc> godbyk, until we have an HTML version of the manual, it won't be too hard to find some flash or java app that embeds PDF documents right?
<humphreybc> what is the easiest way to say that we have a version for printing with two pages on one page?
<godbyk> humphreybc: Er.. embedding PDFs sucks, in my opinion.
<humphreybc> double-up or something?
<godbyk> Though most PDF viewers embed themselves into the browser (which I hate).
<godbyk> humphreybc: You mean using the n-up option on their printer? Or what?
<humphreybc> well you know how we were going to do that thing where there are two pages on every page they print
<humphreybc> so it uses half the amount of paper
<godbyk> hmm..
<humphreybc> and the margin notes become like a book
<godbyk> usually that's just an option you give to the printer when you go to print it.
<humphreybc> well we're going to assume our readers don't know that
<humphreybc> my mum certainly wouldn't
<humphreybc> and she's going to be a perfect test case for this manual :P
<godbyk> Okay, we'll have to look into that then.
<humphreybc> all i'm going to do is email her the link to www.ubuntu-manual.org and see if she can download it, open it, and actually start reading it where it makes sense
<humphreybc> jeezus this bloody android wifi thing is bugging me
<humphreybc> i'm fiddling with router settings to see if i can fix it
<humphreybc> even though i am sitting right beside the wireless router with 100% signal strength, it still drops it randomly and won't auto reconnect. sometimes it the android will say "no network connection" when in google maps/app store/gmail/facebook/gtalk etc... but the wifi is still connected
<humphreybc> so godbyk, do you know what "beacon interval" "RTS/CTS threshold" "fragmentation threshold" and "DTIM" do?
<humphreybc> i thought it might have been a problem with authentication so i've changed from WPA2-PSK to WPA-PSK and also tried AES and TKIP but they don't seem to make a difference :S
<godbyk> no clue.
<humphreybc> i've also installed "wifi fixer" from the app store which apparently says it fixes wireless stuff
<godbyk> (well some clue, but not enough that it'd help)
<humphreybc> darn
<godbyk> brb
<godbyk> back
<humphreybc> TommyBrunn: just saw your reply in the thread on UF
<humphreybc> you're probably going to have your hands full with quickshot
<humphreybc> and because we don't really have anyone else working on it, and also because it's a higher priority, i'd prefer it if you stuck with quickshot :)
<ziroday> humphreybc: what firmware are you using?
<godbyk> humphreybc, TommyBrunn: Just had a thought about the quickshot program..
<godbyk> for taking shots of just a segment of the screen..
<godbyk> if we can start the program up with specific geometry (many X apps have provide command-line options for that), we can just take a full-screen shot and crop it automatically.
<humphreybc> that's a good idea, but how does the geometry work? does it go off resolution or percentages?
<humphreybc> or are we going to all be running the same res
<humphreybc> ziroday: Android 1.6 on an HTC Magic
<godbyk> humphreybc: run "xeyes --help"
<godbyk> it'll show you the -geometry option.
<godbyk> you're going to be running the same res anyway.
<godbyk> but the geometry option let's you set the window size and position.
<humphreybc> yeah i saw that, 800x600 apparently. 800x600 would look terrible on anything other than 4:3 though?
<godbyk> sure, but the graphics will be fine.
<godbyk> just the display on the monitor may look bad (if it's stretched)
<ziroday> humphreybc: oh, nothing custom?
<humphreybc> ziroday: haha nope, i only got this thing a few days ago, don't want to brick it or anything. haven't even looked into installing custom stuff on it
<humphreybc> i've seen a lot of people talking about rooting it, but i have no idea how to do that
<ziroday> ah, well in that case best answer is to probably ring up HTC. Don't expect anything spectacular however
<humphreybc> godbyk: so... what you see on the monitor (ie stretched windows) won't be what the image turns out to be?
<godbyk> humphreybc: correct
<humphreybc> ziroday, i think changing to AES might have fixed it... not sure. it hasn't dropped in the last 10 minutes which is unusual.
<humphreybc> godbyk: aha, i had no idea. that makes sense
<ziroday> humphreybc: heh, I know in 2.x the wireless code is meant to be greatly improved, but I've only ever tried it on WEP here.
<humphreybc> i wish HTC would hurry the hell up and release 2.xx for the magic
<humphreybc> how can you install 2.1 manually?
<humphreybc> okay so now we just need to find a good web designer who can take my mockups, improve on them, and then make them into a website
<humphreybc> I want to have an actual website working by the end of march for us to test
<humphreybc> and on www.ubuntu-manual.org (which i'm buying now btw) I want a countdown timer to the 29th April
<humphreybc> on the 29th April it'll go live about 12 hours before Lucid is released
<humphreybc> and everyone can download the final manual :P
<godbyk> humphreybc: let me know when you've got the domain name purchased, and I'll set up the hosting for it.
<humphreybc> sure
 * humphreybc wonders what's up with the people flaming me in the thread i posted: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=8894175
<godbyk> fun times.
<godbyk> gotta love the ubuntu forums
<humphreybc> lol
<humphreybc> i mean what the hell
<humphreybc> i have like 28,000 karma and they guy says "maybe linux isn't for you"
<humphreybc> sure buddy...
<humphreybc> okay i just bought the domain name :)
<TommyBrunn> I think it's because you mentioned slicing up the mockup and exporting it to dreamweaver. That just makes any web developer cringe.
<humphreybc> how else is one supposed to get nice drop shadows and custom fonts onto a website?
<godbyk> custom fonts == bad.
<TommyBrunn> Custom fonts is just a no-no. You don't do that, unless you're catering to a very specific niche of people. Rather, you display that font for those who have it, a similar backup for those who don't, and a generic font that everyone has in case the person doesn't have the backup font either.
<godbyk> either use @font-face or pick another font.
<godbyk> text should be text, damn it.
<TommyBrunn> Drop shadows can be made using CSS3 or javascript magic
<humphreybc> boo
<TommyBrunn> Or using ugly hacks
<humphreybc> slicing and importing into dreamweaver or HTML div tags is a much more elegant solution. for the main body text I would use the set fonts, but for stuff like the banner i'd use a sliced image
<humphreybc> but hey, i'm not an expert in web site creation
<TommyBrunn> No, seriously. It's not an elegant solution at all. Images should be used as a last resort, and from what I've seen of your mockup, very few elements would have to be made using images.
<humphreybc> godbyk i've got the domain name, what do you need?
<godbyk> I need my web panel to work! :-)
<godbyk> You'll have to point the name servers to me.
<godbyk> set them to ns1.dreamhost.com, ns2.dreamohost.com, and ns3.dreamhost.com
<humphreybc> righto
<humphreybc> their control panel hates chrome
<humphreybc> apparently it also hates firefox too O.o
<humphreybc> maybe it just hates ubuntu
<TommyBrunn> Where'd you buy it from
<TommyBrunn> ?
<humphreybc> aplust.net
<humphreybc> aplus.net*
<humphreybc> was the cheapst at 9.99USD
<humphreybc> it's sort of working but it's very slow
<humphreybc> oh progress!
<humphreybc> TommyBrunn: aplus.net
<humphreybc> oh wait
<humphreybc> didn't scroll down
<humphreybc> :)
<humphreybc> godbyk: nameservers should be updated now
<godbyk> 'kay.
<godbyk> I'll get the site set up whenever http://panel.dreamhost.com works again.
<godbyk> (down for maintenance at the moment, apparently.)
<godbyk> do you have html for the site?
<humphreybc> nope
<humphreybc> :)
<humphreybc> i'll look for a countdown timer
<humphreybc> godbyk, try this: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/385624/
<godbyk> countdown timers are pretty easy.
<humphreybc> sweet
<humphreybc> well if you could just get a countdown timer up and running that looks nice
<humphreybc> and maybe have our banner in there too
<humphreybc> actually, godbyk, i'll do that for you
<humphreybc> and send you the HTML file
<godbyk> humphreybc: awesome.
<humphreybc> you've got enough to do without writing a silly countdown timer :P
<godbyk> I'm currently writing a build script.
<godbyk> :-)
<humphreybc> oO
<humphreybc> coo
<humphreybc> cool*
<godbyk> humphreybc: can you access https://panel.dreamhost.com/?
<humphreybc> your install script is really nice, btw
<godbyk> thanks
<humphreybc> actually i wonder if it would be cool just to have the countdown
<humphreybc> with nothing else
<humphreybc> like a viral thing
<godbyk> I don't see that being terribly viral. :)
<humphreybc> lol true
<humphreybc> godbyk, do you know any javascript?
<humphreybc> all i want to do is center the text
<godbyk> a little bit
<godbyk> just wrap the stuff you want centered in "<div style="text-align: center;"> TEXT GOES HERE </div>"
<TommyBrunn> No. Just add a css class to the text. That's the semantically correct way to do it. Like:
<TommyBrunn> <p class="centered">Text goes here</p>
<TommyBrunn> And in the CSS:
<TommyBrunn> .centered {
<TommyBrunn>     text-align:center;
<TommyBrunn> }
<TommyBrunn> Sadly I don't think it works too well in internet explorer 6 (though I don't know if we're shooting for IE6 compatibility)
<TommyBrunn> Whoa
<TommyBrunn> Sorry about the spam
<humphreybc> heh
<humphreybc> i've got it centered by using
<humphreybc> <div id="countbox" style="text-align: center;width: 100%; height: 1px;"></div>
<humphreybc> but now i just want to bump it down the screen a bit
<TommyBrunn> Use line-height
<TommyBrunn> Like line-height:1.5em;
<TommyBrunn> Unless you want to move the entire box
<humphreybc> move the entire box
<TommyBrunn> In which case you'd use margin
<godbyk> or add padding/margin on the top
<TommyBrunn> top-margin, specifically.
<humphreybc> okay
<humphreybc> so top-padding: "1.5em"; or something?
<TommyBrunn> Use margin rather than padding.
<humphreybc> <div id="countbox" margin=20em; style="text-align: center;width: 100%; height: 1px;"></div> ?
<humphreybc> sorry it's been forever since i did anything like this and i was never very good at it anyway
<godbyk> <div id="countbox" style="text-align: center; top-margin: 20em;"> TEXT GOES HERE </div>
<godbyk> (Not sure if it's top-margin or margin-top.)
<TommyBrunn> It would be a lot easier if you separated the markup and the styling. So that you have a CSS style sheet that you link to in the markup.
<godbyk> (Been quite a while)
<TommyBrunn> top-margin
<humphreybc> do i really need a CSS style sheet for this?
<TommyBrunn> If you're doing more than just a timer, yeah
<TommyBrunn> If you're just working on the timer, I guess it doesn't really matter
<humphreybc> this is what i've got: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/385640/
<humphreybc> but it don't work :)
<humphreybc> if i could just put it smack bang in the middle of the screen, both vertically and horizontally
<humphreybc> and then maybe have a box around it and a light gray fill to match the website style when we finally reveal the site
<humphreybc> then that would be cool
 * humphreybc was supposed to watch a movie tonight but alas it's too late
<TommyBrunn> Give me 10 minutes.
<TommyBrunn> Or maybe 15, to be on the safe side
<godbyk> I haven't prettied this up *at all* yet.. but what other info would be helpful to report? http://kevin.godby.org/ubuntu-manual/builds/
<humphreybc> Tommy, thanks
<humphreybc> awesome godbyk
<humphreybc> i don't think you need any more information
<humphreybc> so this is a build script that you'll run on your computer?
<humphreybc> or server?
<godbyk> it's a script I'll run on my computer.
<humphreybc> cool
<humphreybc> and it automatically puts the compiled PDFs on your server?
<godbyk> yep
<humphreybc> groovy
<humphreybc> so now translators who want to see their work don't have to install all the latex stuff
<humphreybc> you can just point them there :)
<godbyk> I'll probably set it up on my home server, so I don't have it dragging down the cpu on my desktop system.
<godbyk> that's true, I s'pose.
<humphreybc> cool
<godbyk> I have to figure out how to automated it to run when there is new stuff in bzr.
<humphreybc> i'm still waiting for my home server to be reconnected. flatmate came home and moved the router up to his room because he doesn't have wireless.. so i had to buy him a wireless USB stick which hasn't arrived yet
<humphreybc> godbyk, how do the contents get translated?
<godbyk> what contents?
<humphreybc> oh wait nevermind
<godbyk> the magic of latex?
<humphreybc> they translate the chapter/section headers and latex builds them off that
<godbyk> yeppers
<humphreybc> forgot for a sec there
<humphreybc> is there any language that has been more than 90% translated?
<humphreybc> it's a bit depressing reading a danish manual where everything is in english except for the headers :P
<TommyBrunn> humphreybc: almost done. Just needs to be vertically centered as well, which is a little more complicated than horizontal centering.
<godbyk> https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual and click on 'view all languages' at the bottom right
<humphreybc> Tommy, cool, thanks :D
<godbyk> you can click on the status heading to sort by status
<ubuntujenkins> I think english uk and german are the best and spanish
 * humphreybc opens his 18th tab in chrome
<humphreybc> wow go german
<ubuntujenkins> have we got a page for the quickshot branches yet?
<humphreybc> not yet
<humphreybc> should i create one now?
<ubuntujenkins> when you have a moment it would be good, the pyhton is way out of my depth now and I can set up the branches an write the merging script
<humphreybc> i'm just setting up the project now
<ubuntujenkins> thanks :-)
<humphreybc> i'll see if i can make it a subproject of either ubuntu-manual or quickshot
<ubuntujenkins> Idealy ubuntu-manual
<humphreybc> yeah
<humphreybc> that's what i'm going to true
<humphreybc> try*
<TommyBrunn> humphreybc: All done
<humphreybc> sweet!
<TommyBrunn> http://www.speedyshare.com/files/21180161/Ubuntu-manual.tar.gz
<humphreybc> TommyBrunn: nice!
<humphreybc> godbyk, see above **
<godbyk> got it.
<humphreybc> ubuntujenkins: https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual-screenshots
<ubuntujenkins> thanks I will starts adding the branches
<humphreybc> groovy
<humphreybc> so i guess just make each branch the translation abbreviation
<humphreybc> like es, ar, du, etc
<ubuntujenkins> yes it will be there will be a main as well
<godbyk> humphreybc: that works best for me. :)
<humphreybc> yeah that's what i thought :P
<humphreybc> then the URL for each will be something like https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-manual-screenshots/es ?
<ubuntujenkins> ubuntu-manual/ubuntu-manual-screenshots/main  is main apparently
<humphreybc> yeah
<humphreybc> well we won't be using main
<humphreybc> ubuntu-manual/ubuntu-manual-screenshots/es etc
<humphreybc> you could probably just delete main
<ubuntujenkins> I haven't made main yet
<ubuntujenkins> which is easier fo compiling lots tranlated versions
<ubuntujenkins> stick to codes like es, de, ar but wouldn't getting them all in one go also be good if you wanted to compile lots of them
<humphreybc> i suppose yea
<humphreybc> oh did anyone think about that idea i had for the progress bar?
<TommyBrunn> What idea?
<godbyk> humphreybc: I think estimating word count will be too difficult.
<godbyk> Probably better off just flagging each section as done or something.
<humphreybc> TommyBrunn: I thought it would be neat if we could have a live progress bar of the manual, by taking an export of the current word count, and then estimating what the final word count would be, then working out a percentage
<humphreybc> Joey at omgubuntu.co.uk said if we make one he'd put it on his website sidebar permanently, it would be a great way to raise awareness about our project
<humphreybc> godbyk: yeah you're probably right. well should I make one now and just update it manually?
<godbyk> you can if you'd like.
<godbyk> might help motivate those who still have stuff to write.
<humphreybc> righto
<godbyk> I'm curious as to how close we are to having everything written.
<humphreybc> how far through do you think we are?
<TommyBrunn> Well you could easily make a progressbar using javascript. The difficult part would be to get the word count and that.
<humphreybc> about 60%?
<godbyk> (I haven't actually flipped through the manual since before the alpha release, I think!)
<humphreybc> hmm
<ubuntujenkins> well there is still open offcice ubuntu one and rythambox to go on default apps
<humphreybc> i think we've got 6/10 chapters completed, more or less
<humphreybc> http://www.flickr.com/photos/humphreybc/4394131925/
<humphreybc> simple but i think it does the job
<godbyk> So do you think we'll pull it off? :)
<humphreybc> i'll just change it whenever we make significant improvements :P
<godbyk> no need for the ellipses.
<humphreybc> godbyk if you could host it on your server at some permanent URL so I can give it to blogs etc
<humphreybc> you don't like the ellipses?
<godbyk> as soon as they finish dinking around with the panel, I'll set it up.
<godbyk> they don't serve any purpose.
<godbyk> wow, it does take a while to download 2.5G and install it, doesn't it? :)
<humphreybc> kk
<humphreybc> yes!
<godbyk> (installing TL 2009 on my home server)
<humphreybc> http://www.flickr.com/photos/humphreybc/4394136221/
<godbyk> better.
<humphreybc> suggestions for improvements?
<godbyk> is that percent bar actually 60%?   Looks closer to 50%.
<humphreybc> lol i'm not sure i'll check
<humphreybc> it was actually 55, my bad
<humphreybc> :D
<humphreybc> and godbyk, yeah i think we'll make it
<humphreybc> not 100% all translated with localized screenshots
<humphreybc> but i think we'll have a decent english manual, about 20 - 30 translated manuals, and perhaps 10 with localized screenshots
<humphreybc> the rest with english screenshots till we get around to doing them after lucid
<humphreybc> http://www.flickr.com/photos/humphreybc/4394140487/
<godbyk> better
<humphreybc> i'll stick it on our wiki now
<humphreybc> front page :P
<humphreybc> so when you stick it on your server, email the link to it and i'll send it to joey
<humphreybc> how far through the project are we? about halfway, right?
<humphreybc> started in january, and we have to finish by the end of april... so that's four months. and it's just gone 1st march here
<humphreybc> so we're halfway, and 60% completed
<humphreybc> buuut the writing freeze is in 18 days
<humphreybc> so we're actually behind schedule
<humphreybc> right tomorrow i'm going to do some writing
<humphreybc> wow awesome, someone on UF actually created an HTML file and CSS style sheet for our site already
<humphreybc> it looks good!
<humphreybc> i've invited them to join the project if they like, but if not I might just take what they've done and create the rest of the pages, using his one as a template
<godbyk> humphreybc: cool
<TommyBrunn> humphreybc: I just saw that. It's pretty well done. The code needs a little work to validate, but it's a pretty good start.
<humphreybc> yeah, it looks pretty
<humphreybc> i'll fiddle tomorrow and see if i can improve on it, then i'll start work on designing the other pages
<humphreybc> i'm pushing it into the branch
<humphreybc> feel free to have a play too :)
<TommyBrunn> One thing that bugs me is that the logo is taking up almost a third of the viewport. I'd make the space between the logo and the content smaller.
<humphreybc> yeah
<humphreybc> i'm going to make the logo smaller
<humphreybc> and the banner
<TommyBrunn> Oh, I just noticed something.
<humphreybc> uh huh?
<TommyBrunn> Oh, nevermind. The CSS just looked very odd for a bit there, but after giving it some though, it doesn't really matter.
 * humphreybc just pushed the website work from UF user
<humphreybc> Tommy, it's all in the branch now under /website so if you did want to have some time away from python then you're more than welcome to have a fiddle :)
<TommyBrunn> Wee!
<humphreybc> haha
<humphreybc> and with that i'm off to bed!
<TommyBrunn> Night!
<thorwil> haier71
<thorwil> gnark, major focus fail. not even the right machine!
<godbyk> thorwil: lol
<godbyk> thorwil: I did that earlier.  Ran 'sudo apt-get install BLAH' on my web server box -- which I have no sudo access to.
<godbyk> Hope I didn't piss off any admins.
<godbyk> Website is up.. somewhat: http://ubuntu-manual.org/
<TommyBrunn> I'm currently working on making the website validate, as well as become slightly easier to work with.
<TommyBrunn> Does your web hotel support PHP?
<godbyk> TommyBrunn: Yep.
<godbyk> It's running PHP 5.
<TommyBrunn> Goodie
<godbyk> TommyBrunn: we need a cool favicon too. :)
<TommyBrunn> I'll leave that to Ben.
<TommyBrunn> However, I want to split the site into a few different php files, which can then be joined using $include_once(). That way the header can stay in one file, and all the subpages can just call on that file. However, doing so would require anyone who wants to fiddle with the design to be running a php-enabled server.
<TommyBrunn> So it might be best to wait until the design is final.
<godbyk> TommyBrunn: Are you still working on the site code?
<TommyBrunn> I just pushed the latest revision.
<godbyk> Okay.
<godbyk> http://ubuntu-manual.org/
<godbyk> I think we should either move the cover pages image to the right or wrap the covers and the about-the-manual section in a big div so that the features start below that block.
<dutchie> o/
<dutchie> wwow, you folks set up a website since yesterday morning
<godbyk> dutchie: :)
<godbyk> well, humphreybc registered a domain name.
<godbyk> and I'm hosting it.
<godbyk> he posted his site mockups on the ubuntu forums and someone gave him back some html and css.
<godbyk> dutchie: I've also been working on writing a build script that generates output like this: http://kevin.godby.org/ubuntu-manual/builds/
<godbyk> (I haven't prettied any of it up yet.)
<dutchie> why only those 5 languages?
<godbyk> Can you think of any more info that should be displayed?
<dutchie> er, 6
<godbyk> because I'm just testing and don't want to wait for all 40 languages to compile. :-)
<dutchie> heh
<godbyk> so I just have the script stop after the first half dozen languages.
<dutchie> nah, just prettify
<godbyk> 'kay.
<godbyk> Hey, TommyBrunn.. can you fix whatever is wrong with the footer?
<TommyBrunn> godbyk: I just did
<TommyBrunn> Check the newest revision
<godbyk> TommyBrunn: Much better, thanks!
<godbyk> We also need to splice up the Download button so we can replace the text that's on there.
<TommyBrunn> godbyk: Yup. I don't have access to Photoshop at the moment, so I can't do it. But it shouldn't be very hard. I'll just add a link and style it to have the button as a background image.
<godbyk> TommyBrunn: well, we'll want the button to be able to vary in size.
<godbyk> (we're going to translate it, so we don't know how big it'll need to be)
<TommyBrunn> Will the website be translated, though?
<TommyBrunn> Either way, the best option would probably be to simply make the button a sensible size. No language is going to have a word for "download" that's 130 characters long.
<godbyk> TommyBrunn: Probably at some point.
<godbyk> It'd be nice if we can get it translated.
<TommyBrunn> godbyk: I just had an idea about the download button. I'm just going to fire up my other computer, and see if I can create some magic.
<TommyBrunn> Or at least make a functional button
<godbyk> TommyBrunn: There are easy ways of doing it.
<godbyk> google for resizable css button and you'll find 'em.
<godbyk> basically, the edges are graphics and the interior has a background graphic/color.
<TommyBrunn> Yeah, I'm going to do something similar to that.
<godbyk> the interior can be any size, and the edges remain the same size.
<godbyk> dutchie: what's the translation template?
<dutchie> godbyk: the ubuntu-manual.pot file
<godbyk> ah
<godbyk> I just saw an email about it and I hadn't seen an email like that before.
<ubuntujenkins> TommyBrunn when you get a moment can you have a look at my branch and my attempt of python. Thanks :-)
<TommyBrunn> ubuntujenkins: Alright. How about you sum up what functionality you've added.
<ubuntujenkins> TommyBrunn: My branch now installs disper if the user is using nvidia. It detects the users graphics card and makes the necessary window pop up. The resolution is changed on the click of the ok button. and the has you resolution changed correctly window appears.
<TommyBrunn> Alright. Sweet. I'll take a look at it as soon as I can. If you feel up to it, you could merge the changes into main yourself.
<ubuntujenkins> There is no log out in 15 seconds mechanism as I have no clue how to do it.
<dutchie> sleep(15); logout()
<dutchie> time.sleep*
<dutchie> er, somthing like that
<dutchie> time.sleep(seconds)
<ubuntujenkins> I can merge them but I would rather you checked it was in your preferred layout I did get #python josh and #ubuntu-app-devel to help. :-)
<komsas> dutchie: why some traslated strings was removed from last update?
<ubuntujenkins> I don't want to do to much to make your course hard
<dutchie> komsas: because the update of translations and translation template were separated, at a guess
<dutchie> komsas: unless there was a small change that you missed
<ubuntujenkins> I tried time.sleep but it makes the windows grey out. (TommyBrunn)
<TommyBrunn> Yeah, that happens when the program goes idle.
<TommyBrunn> The only solution I know of requires multithreading, and we absolutely don't want to get involved with that.
<ubuntujenkins> we need it so that the user can click the "ok" button to stop them being logged out
<komsas> dutchie: before translation template update 600 strings translated, now only ~200.
<dutchie> it's been a bit of a while since I updated
<komsas> dutchie: sorry not 600, 300
<TommyBrunn> What the heck?!
<TommyBrunn> I just tried to upload my latest changes to launchpad, but if you check the latest revision, those are not my changes. :S
<ubuntujenkins> which branch?
<TommyBrunn> main
<TommyBrunn> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-manual/ubuntu-manual/main/revision/343
<ubuntujenkins> its the translation stuff in there as well, did you do a pull before you commited?
<TommyBrunn> Yeah
<TommyBrunn> But the weirdest part is that my original changes aren't even in there.
<ubuntujenkins> weird \me asks dutchie if he has just done a merge with the translations?
<TommyBrunn> Oh, wait a minute
<godbyk> your stuff is there under r342..
<TommyBrunn> Now it says I've done two commits in the last 5 minutes
<TommyBrunn> Yeah, i just saw that.
<godbyk> then you merged with dutchie's translations.
<godbyk> http://ubuntu-manual.org/
<godbyk> Here's that the build stuff looks like now: http://ubuntu-manual.org/builds/
<godbyk> I'm building all the translations as we speak, so that table may be bigger after a bit (when it's done compiling everything).
<ubuntujenkins> you know the cover page is wrong on the arabic one right?
<ubuntujenkins> looks neat though easy to look to see what my writting looks like
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: The Arabic translation failed to compile, so the PDF is all kinds of messed up. :-)
<dutchie> maybe you should not show such PDFs
<ubuntujenkins> thought that would be the case just thought I would let you konw
<godbyk> dutchie: well, this page is more for me and the translators.
<godbyk> (mostly me at the moment, so I can see what translations I still need to write code for.)
<dutchie> still, not sure what you gain from a PDF which didn't compile properly
<godbyk> sometimes it's easier to see where the hangup was by looking at the pdf than the log file.
<godbyk> also, it doesn't really hurt anything, does it?
<dutchie> suppose not
<godbyk> I'm kind of curious to see how much the page count will differ for the various translations.
<godbyk> We're up to 47 languages now, apparently.
<ubuntujenkins> thats good :-)
 * ubuntujenkins looks to see which new ones there are
<godbyk> I haven't got all the existing ones to work yet and they just keep translating into new languages! :-)
<godbyk> http://ubuntu-manual.org/builds/
<godbyk> All the translations should be there now.
<ubuntujenkins> nice :)
 * issyl0 bzr pull latest revisions
<godbyk> dutchie: you around?
<godbyk> dutchie: Is there a way I can flag the \date and \frontcover commands so that the translators stop translating them? :)
<dutchie> the command itself or its argument?
<godbyk> The command itself.
<dutchie> If you put a % TRANSLATORS: comment in, it'll show up when they translators translate
<dutchie> % TRANSLATORS: don't translate the command \date
<godbyk> On the same line or above/below?
<dutchie> above or below I think
<dutchie> same line might work
<godbyk> okay
<godbyk> Both the Greek and Spanish translations had that problem.
<godbyk> (Trying to figure out which translations I need to write code for and which are just not compiling due to typos.)
<dutchie> sounds fun
 * dutchie is watching his team be denied the League Cup
<dutchie> stupid Manchester United
<godbyk> lol
<dutchie> vidic should have gone off 5 minutes in
<godbyk> Fixed a few translations: http://ubuntu-manual.org/builds/
<godbyk> Those that are failing now are due to things I need to code up.
<ubuntujenkins> thansk so much for that link you haev solved my problem :-)
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: what problem was that?
<ubuntujenkins> I needed the full names of two language codes
<godbyk> ah.
<godbyk> what for?
<godbyk> also that's only a list of the languages we're currently translating.. definitely not a complete list.
<ubuntujenkins> I am making the script to merge the  47 odd branches of screenshots into a main screenshots branch
<godbyk> aha
 * ubuntujenkins installs all the ubuntu language packs
<TommyBrunn> godbyk: Are you there?
<TommyBrunn> Ah, nevermind. Good night everyone
#ubuntu-manual 2011-02-26
<c7p> hello all :D
<ChrisWoollard> evening
<godbyk> hey
<ChrisWoollard> Hello Godbyk
<c7p> how are you faring ChrisWoollard, godbyk  ?
<ChrisWoollard> I am fairing well.
<godbyk> I'm doing pretty well.
<c7p> i'm glad to hear that :)
<c7p> "hear" ...
<ChrisWoollard> Isn't it meeting day?
<c7p> yes
<ChrisWoollard> What's the plan? Start, Wait?
<godbyk> I was hoping that someone other than the three of us would show up, too. :)
<daker> o/
<semioticrobotic> o/
<patrickdickey> Hi everyone. Sorry I'm late.
<ChrisWoollard> Hands up if you are here for the meetung
 * patrickdickey hands up
<ChrisWoollard> s/meetung/meeting
<semioticrobotic> \o/
<godbyk> Cool.  Good enough for me!
<godbyk> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 14:06. The chair is godbyk.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<c7p> here we go agenda: http://typewith.me/ToAmust0XX
<godbyk> [TOPIC] Improving the Ubuntu Manual website
<MootBot> New Topic:  Improving the Ubuntu Manual website
<godbyk> c7p: Do you want to discuss this topic?
<c7p> yes i think on this part we should discuss about the website
<godbyk> I should phrase that a bit differently: c7p, would you like to lead the discussion on this topic? :)
<c7p> and propose ideas for the improvement of it, technical i think we are ok but regarding the content im not so sure
<godbyk> We do have a test site up at http://test.ubuntu-manual.org/ that humphreybc and daker worked on before humphreybc left.
<ChrisWoollard> have you looked at.... Yes that
<c7p> ah ok i give some ideas first you follow :P
<patrickdickey> I've checked out the test site.
<c7p> first the getting invlolved pages should be updated. me and patrickdickey have done the author, editor part
<c7p> the designer, and programmet section should be updated also, we have to be more specific regarding what we need from volunteers i think
<c7p> what do you think on that ? if you agree we may add this to todo list for site
<godbyk> I think that it's probably a good idea to list some of the general types of tasks that each role takes on (to give an idea of what skills are required), and also to list some specific things that need to be done.
<godbyk> It should be easy for someone to stumble across our project, decide they'd like to help, and find a niche to fill.
<ChrisWoollard> Who has responsibility for the website now?
<c7p> daker is the maintainer and developer right ?
<godbyk> ChrisWoollard: I don't think anyone's ever really had responsibility for the website.  I think daker's been designing it and managing the updates as people make suggestions.
<semioticrobotic> The new site is impressive.  While I think the content needs work, I think the design is solid
<ChrisWoollard> Should we make the test site live?
<c7p> so is there anyone here who wants to try writing something more on these website pages ?
<patrickdickey> I had mentioned in an email to c7p (IIRC) about maybe creating three sub-tabs on the "Authors page". One for each method of gettting started (command line, script, or Ground Control).  Would that be a possibility?
<daker> yes it's possible
<semioticrobotic> is installing Tex Live integral to becoming a writer or editor?  I can honestly say that I've never installed it, yet work on dozens of edits and additions to the manual
<godbyk> semioticrobotic: It's required to build the PDF.  As long as you don't break the build, I'll never know. :-)
<ChrisWoollard> Usually eithe  godbyk or maybe check all edits to make sure
<ChrisWoollard> s/maybe/me
<semioticrobotic> godbyk: Right, but I rarely, if ever, build the pdf myself.  :)  I just push, pull, make edits to the text files, and let the designers do their thing
<c7p> any other ideas regarding site ?
<ChrisWoollard> not from me
<c7p> i don't see much interest on this topic, should we go on ?
<godbyk> Okay. We can always revisit it in a later meeting, too.
<patrickdickey> I would say "yes" to making the test site live. We can always update it as we get things done.
<godbyk> [TOPIC] Ideas for improving the manual
<MootBot> New Topic:  Ideas for improving the manual
<semioticrobotic> what ideas are on the table?
<c7p> as i say on pad Addition of one or two page with Linux alternative applications
<semioticrobotic> ah!  yes.  I was wondering where these pages would fit in the manual's current structure
<ChrisWoollard> appendix?
<c7p> no big deal
<c7p> yes they can be placed on appendix,
<patrickdickey> Depending on how big of a section, either an appendix or maybe a final chapter?
<c7p> as a getting started book i think we should provide the reader this information
<godbyk> If we're just covering the top few applications/questions when transitioning from Windows or Mac OS X to Ubuntu, then we can probably include it.
<semioticrobotic> I agree
<godbyk> If it gets out of hand, though, it's probably better to create a separate PDF.
<c7p> godbyk: or maybe we can add the list in a page on website and simply add the link to the manual
<semioticrobotic> To keep the pages contained, we'll probably want to generate a strict list of commonly used applications, then solicit suggestions for one or two alternatives
<c7p> semioticrobotic: good idea
<godbyk> So someone would need to research the top n applications that people use in Windows and Mac OS X and then suggest sensible replacements under Ubuntu.
<c7p> cool
<patrickdickey> +1 semioticrobotic
<godbyk> Now the big question: Is anyone here willing to take on that responsibility?
<c7p> i can do it
<c7p> no big deal there are thousands good lists out there :P
<semioticrobotic> c7p: feel free to post your preliminary work to a pad so we can help you (if yo'd like)
<ChrisWoollard> It should be clear and consise
<c7p> semioticrobotic: sure i will post it to the list
<c7p> ChrisWoollard: yes
<godbyk> [ACTION] c7p will research the most frequently used applications in Windows and Mac OS X and will suggest suitable replacements under Ubuntu.
<MootBot> ACTION received:  c7p will research the most frequently used applications in Windows and Mac OS X and will suggest suitable replacements under Ubuntu.
<godbyk> c7p: Now it's official! :)
<semioticrobotic> Just to clear: we're not writing new copy/content to describe the Ubuntu equivalents, right?  Just generating a table of alternative?
<semioticrobotic> *alternatives
<godbyk> It should be more than a mere table, I think.
<semioticrobotic> ah, okay
<godbyk> There should probably be a brief description of the alternative and how it differs from the original application.
<godbyk> And pointers to more information should be provided.
<semioticrobotic> godbyk: Gotcha
<semioticrobotic> Then "Learning More" might be a decent place for the list
<c7p> godbyk: you're in my mind or maybe i'm in yours haha
<godbyk> Is there anything else for this topic or should we move on?
<c7p> yes
<godbyk> [TOPIC] Feedback on project leader and editor in chief roles
<MootBot> New Topic:  Feedback on project leader and editor in chief roles
<ChrisWoollard> http://typewith.me/GY2L5yJCUF
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://typewith.me/GY2L5yJCUF
<godbyk> ChrisWoollard: Would you like to lead the discussion on this topic?
<ChrisWoollard> Okay then.
<ChrisWoollard> The about link lists the descriptions for each role.
<ChrisWoollard> I have editted them. Is there anything missing?
<ChrisWoollard> Or do you think we are happy with them?
<semioticrobotic> just reading them now ... seem well-rounded enough to me
<ChrisWoollard> Are we ready to advertise? Where should we advertise? Does anybody have suggestions for who may be appropriate?
<ChrisWoollard> Does annybody want one of the roles?
<c7p> the list is ok i think
<semioticrobotic> I'd contact a few podcasts, actually ... maybe the Ubuntu UK podcast or Full Circle podcast
<popey> hello
<popey> :D
<semioticrobotic> ask them to perhaps announce the call for participants as a news item
<ChrisWoollard> Hello popey
<popey> we're recording the first uupc of season 4 on tuesday
<semioticrobotic> I figured that would rouse popey
<semioticrobotic> :)
<popey> please let us know any announcements before then via email to podcast@ubuntu-uk.org :D
<ChrisWoollard> Okay.
<godbyk> Thanks, popey!
<c7p> before that we have to be sure that there is work to be done and have it on todo list at least
<godbyk> We'll also need to establish a process in case we have more than one person volunteer for a role.
<popey> +1
<ChrisWoollard> Really. I think we need those posts whatever
<ChrisWoollard> So, what actions do we have before tuesday?
<godbyk> We need a contact point for applicants.
<c7p> task/todo list: http://typewith.me/6vGZcVmzIx
<godbyk> A process for interviewing and deciding who gets each role.
<semioticrobotic> do we have a general email address for the project?
<semioticrobotic> who monitors that?
<godbyk> All that typical hiring process stuff.
<c7p> godbyk: can we make a form for this ?
<semioticrobotic> yes, all that fun stuff
<ChrisWoollard> if not, I don't mind being a contact point
<godbyk> c7p: We could create a form, yeah.  But we'll need more than that.
<ChrisWoollard> Full CV and a test?
<godbyk> ChrisWoollard: We could have a single contact point or have them email the list or have them email the editors list or create a new email address <jobs@ubuntu-manual.org>, for example.
<ChrisWoollard> Who controls mail accounts?
<semioticrobotic> so in other words, we've got options!
<godbyk> I can create email accounts.
<godbyk> ChrisWoollard: If you can't, I'll make it so you can. :-)
<ChrisWoollard> ;)
<godbyk> I don't think a full CV is required, but I'm certainly interested in all the relevant experience they have.
<semioticrobotic> yes ... requiring a full CV might discourage some folks
<ChrisWoollard> Interview notes http://typewith.me/pTIqM5oVnP
<semioticrobotic> When interested folks inquire, where do we send them?  Will the descriptions be posted anywhere?
<ChrisWoollard> The descriptions should be posted to the mailing list.
<godbyk> I think we can broadcast the descriptions, but it would be nice to have a web page to point them at.  The web page would contain the descriptions of the roles and tell them how to apply.
<ChrisWoollard> Maybe I could wiki fi the descriptions
<semioticrobotic> right...if the announcement will be broadcast, it should contain a link for more inforamtion.  I can't imagine a news item that contains everything we have on that pad :)
<ChrisWoollard> So if we point them at a wiki page that contains everything. Unless somebody can add something to ubuntu-manual.org?
<godbyk> We can add stuff to ubuntu-manual.org, too.
<c7p> i prefer website
<semioticrobotic> website is good ... keeps everythign central
<ChrisWoollard> That is dependant on who can edit it.
<semioticrobotic> *everything
<godbyk> I think there's a UM website admins group or something like that.
<godbyk> The website is in bzr.
<ChrisWoollard> how do updates get published?
<semioticrobotic> yikes ... gotta run, friends.  sorry I can't stay longer.  If anyone needs help writing or editing a radio spot (I have experience with this), feel free to email me to collaborate.
<godbyk> ChrisWoollard: I run a bzr pull.  (It used to pull periodically on its own, but I may or may not have that disabled at the moment. I'll have to check.)
<c7p> semioticrobotic ok see you :)
<godbyk> semioticrobotic: Okay. Thanks for helping out today.
<ChrisWoollard> Okay, that is a start.
<semioticrobotic> I'll catch the rest of the meeting in the minutes.  Take care.  \o
<ChrisWoollard> I can write the descriptions / Interview requirements up if somebody can webify it and put it on the website?
<godbyk> ChrisWoollard: Sure. I can do that.
<ChrisWoollard> Lovely, After the meeting I will prepare it and send it to you
<godbyk> ChrisWoollard: If you want me to create an @ubuntu-manual.org email address, I can.  We can set up that address to forward to one or more other addresses, as well.
<godbyk> [ACTION] ChrisWoollard will mark up the job descriptions and application process
<MootBot> ACTION received:  ChrisWoollard will mark up the job descriptions and application process
<ChrisWoollard> jobs@ubuntu-manual.org would be good
<godbyk> [ACTION] godbyk will post it to the ubuntu-manual.org site.
<MootBot> ACTION received:  godbyk will post it to the ubuntu-manual.org site.
<godbyk> [ACTION] godbyk will create a jobs@ubuntu-manual.org email address to receive job applications
<MootBot> ACTION received:  godbyk will create a jobs@ubuntu-manual.org email address to receive job applications
<ChrisWoollard> After it is on the site I will post details to popey
<godbyk> Okay.
<popey> thanks
<godbyk> [ACTION] ChrisWoollard will send the application details to popey
<MootBot> ACTION received:  ChrisWoollard will send the application details to popey
<c7p> what else ?
<godbyk> Okay. Is there anything else we need to discuss on this topic?
<ChrisWoollard> I don't think so.
<c7p> so do I
<godbyk> [TOPIC] Quickshot feedback
<MootBot> New Topic:  Quickshot feedback
<godbyk> I spoke with jenkins on IRC earlier this week for a few minutes.
<godbyk> Both he and flan have been really busy with work lately and haven't had any time for Quickshot.
<godbyk> jenkins said that they would welcome help from other developers etc.
<ChrisWoollard> Should we write a description for a quickshot developer?
<godbyk> We'll need to create a list of the required screenshots for the Maverick edition so that the Quickshot server can be updated.
<c7p> ChrisWoollard: i think we should
<godbyk> I asked jenkins if he or flan could come up with a to do list that we could hand any new developers, but I haven't heard anything back on that yet.
<c7p> check this http://forum.ubuntu-gr.org/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=13165&p=131608&
<godbyk> I'm not familiar enough with the status of Quickshot to know what's needed at the moment.
<godbyk> Quickshot itself is written in Python.
<c7p> jenkins sent it to me or to ML (i don't rember) when i requested more information for quickshot programmers
<c7p> does it help or not ?
<godbyk> A bit. It gives a nice overview of what they've worked on for the current version of Quickshot.
<godbyk> The biggest issue I see is that I don't know what we'd tell any new QS developers if they showed up.
<godbyk> I don't know what needs to be done.
<c7p> so we should ask more details from them so we can ensure that if any volunteers show up will be able to help
<godbyk> Yes.  Unfortunately, I've done that and haven't gotten a response yet.
<c7p> before that i don't think that the programmer for quickshot should be added to list for volunteers
<ChrisWoollard> Even a brain dump would be more helpful than nothing
<godbyk> Agreed. On both counts.
<ChrisWoollard> agreed
<c7p> ChrisWoollard: sure but if we disappoint people with enthusiasm we harm project longterm
<godbyk> At this point, I guess the only action item then is to continue to harass the Quickshot developers?
<c7p> i guess so
<godbyk> [ACTION] Continue to harass the Quickshot developers for a to do list and a list of skills required to continue development
<MootBot> ACTION received:  Continue to harass the Quickshot developers for a to do list and a list of skills required to continue development
<godbyk> [TOPIC] Supporting the ePub format
<MootBot> New Topic:  Supporting the ePub format
<godbyk> We've had a few requests for the manual in ePub format.
<ChrisWoollard> It was a question from the mailing list
<godbyk> Converting from LaTeX to anything other than PDF isn't terribly easy.
<godbyk> If we want to support more formats (ePub, HTML, etc.), then I would recommend using docbook or some other source format.
<ChrisWoollard> Godbyk, I e-mailed Dinda asking where I could find the docbook stuff they were working on so i could have a look
<ChrisWoollard> I have not had a response yet.
<godbyk> Then converting that format to the various output formats (HTML, ePub, LaTeX -> PDF, etc.).
<godbyk> ChrisWoollard: I haven't heard anything from anyone, either.
<godbyk> ChrisWoollard: The toolchain she used for the earlier Ubuntu book used Apache FOP instead of LaTeX to generate PDFs.
<ChrisWoollard> I will continue to ask.
<godbyk> 'kay.
<ChrisWoollard> When I see her in irc on monday
<godbyk> Does anyone have any thoughts or opinions on supporting other (non-PDF) output formats (such as HTML, ePub, etc.)?
<ChrisWoollard> Personally I would prefer to have docbook + latex
<godbyk> Or any thoughts on switching the source format to Docbook (or anything else)?
<ChrisWoollard> I think it a good idea in an age of Kindles etc
<godbyk> The idea appeals to me as well.
<ChrisWoollard> It is a lot of work
<c7p> godbyk i have a tool in mind if you are interested, i haven't tested though
<ChrisWoollard> Please share?
 * c7p just a moment to find the link 
<godbyk> I *think* that using docbook may simplify the translation process a bit, too, as it removes the po4a requirement.
<c7p> http://johnmacfarlane.net/pandoc/installing.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://johnmacfarlane.net/pandoc/installing.html
<godbyk> I've seen pandoc, but haven't used it much yet, either.
<c7p> sorry check the about page
<godbyk> http://johnmacfarlane.net/pandoc/
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://johnmacfarlane.net/pandoc/
<godbyk> I don't think it'd take to long to actually convert our LaTeX source to Docbook (once we've established a style guide on which tags to use).
<godbyk> Is this something we'd be interested in doing for the Natty edition?
<c7p> cool
<c7p> godbyk: if you have time to handle it i think we should support it for Natty
<godbyk> Okay. I'll look into it a bit more then.
<godbyk> [ACTION] godbyk to look into using Docbook as the source format
<MootBot> ACTION received:  godbyk to look into using Docbook as the source format
<godbyk> [TOPIC] Translations
<MootBot> New Topic:  Translations
<godbyk> c7p: Your turn to lead the discussion again.
<c7p> translations is a pain ...
<c7p> there is so much confusion among translators and also disappointment
<c7p> all thiese happens because the content that is currently under development is available for translation
<godbyk> I thought that we used to only open up the frozen strings for translation.  Is that not true?
<c7p> for those who don't know if an editor or author remove a letter or add something to a paragraph the whole translation of it is lost
<c7p> frozen strings are the lucid e1 and e2 ?
<godbyk> Yes. I think only e1 and e2 are frozen.
<ChrisWoollard> both should be frozen
<c7p> yes but look https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/maverick/+translations here you can see that the maverick is available for translation
<godbyk> That's odd.  We don't even have a .pot file in the maverick branch.
<ChrisWoollard> I thought you deliveratly didn't do that
<c7p> i don't know what happening :P but we should remove the option for translating maverick
<godbyk> Yeah, that's odd. We'll have to look into that.
<c7p> and under development editions also
<c7p> thanks
<godbyk> The translation import settings look different, too.  We didn't used to allow automatic importing of the translations because it caused problems.
<godbyk> It'd be nice if we had a translations manager role, too.  To help deal with all the little translation problems that crop up.
<godbyk> (That is, someone who knows a lot more about the translation process than me!)
<c7p> :/ that's strange
<godbyk> But I think we'll have to save that discussion for our next meeting.
<c7p> :P i can take this role but until Summer i don't have much free time
<godbyk> I need to head out in a few minutes.  Do we have anything else on the agenda?
<ChrisWoollard> Promotion Group?
<c7p> although there should be a post to ML for the role to see other candidates
<ChrisWoollard> Shall we defer that?
<godbyk> Ah, yes.
<godbyk> [TOPIC] Promotion group
<MootBot> New Topic:  Promotion group
<c7p> ah promotion group
<c7p> we need some people to work on promotion group
<c7p> this group would have to make the project known
<c7p> through social media etc.
<godbyk> In the past, I think that humpreybc handled most of the promotion (Facebook, Twitter, OMG, blogging, etc.).
<ChrisWoollard> Do you mean "promoting the group" i.e. The manual Project?
<godbyk> I think that promoting the project is something that everyone can help with.
<c7p> ChrisWoollard: yes sorry i wasn't clear on that
<godbyk> However, we do probably need two or three people to help keep the Facebook page, Twittter feed, etc. up to date.
<c7p> +1
<ChrisWoollard> we have a twitter feed?
<c7p> that's should be the group's purpose
<godbyk> ChrisWoollard: We do!
<godbyk> ChrisWoollard: http://twitter.com/#!/TheUbuntuManual
<godbyk> Amusingly, the last thing posted to the Twitter feed was notice of Ben's abdication.
<ChrisWoollard> Oh yes, Apparently I am already a follower
<c7p> lol
<c7p> godbyk: do you know the passwords for these accounts ?
<ChrisWoollard> Who was the account details?
<godbyk> I think I have them in an email someplace.
<ChrisWoollard> I am too show again.
<ChrisWoollard> slow
<c7p> so we need people for managing our projects social network feeds
<godbyk> I'm not seeing the passwords in my email right off, but I'm sure he sent them.  I'll poke around some more later. If I can't find them, I'll email Ben.
<godbyk> It sounds like we have a lot of roles to fill here and that there's a lot of work to be done.
<c7p> yes
<ChrisWoollard> I don't mind having a go at that.
<godbyk> I'd recommend that we focus on finding an editor in chief and a project leader (though I don't like the name of that position as much) during the next few weeks.
<ChrisWoollard> It can't be that hard to post more than we do at the moment
<godbyk> Then we can start filling in some of these other roles as we ramp up work on releasing the maverick edition and start on the natty edition.
<ChrisWoollard> Okay, fair enough
<godbyk> ChrisWoollard: I'll forward you the account info when I find it.
<godbyk> Just in case I get hit by a bus or something.
<ChrisWoollard> I hope not.
<godbyk> [ACTION] Any other business
<MootBot> ACTION received:  Any other business
<godbyk> Is there any other business that we need to attend to in this meeting?
<ChrisWoollard> There are no erathquakes in your part of the world are there?
<ChrisWoollard> Just this
<ChrisWoollard> Info Only - The style guide is now here https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual-of-style so can be used with other projects (e.g. The Ubuntu Developer Manual).
<godbyk> I would suggest that we try to establish another meeting about two weeks from now to see how the hiring process is going and to touch base on some of these other issues.
<ChrisWoollard> etc
<godbyk> No earthquakes here. Just tornadoes.  But they won't be around for another few months. :)
<ChrisWoollard> Two weeks is good.
<godbyk> Ah, good.
<godbyk> We'll need to update the style guide as we move forward, too.
<ChrisWoollard> If you want I can do the next meeting organising
<c7p> I have to say something regarding "improvement of manual"
<godbyk> Sounds like a plan.
<godbyk> c7p: Go ahead.
<c7p> we were having a discussion for making the book smaller ages ago :P
<c7p> and it was on todo list for maverick but nevermind we are planing for natty
<ChrisWoollard> That was to get us on the relases cd
<ChrisWoollard> I don't think we are anywhere near that at the moment
<c7p> you are right
<ChrisWoollard> I would defer that until we have our house in order
<ChrisWoollard> and proved we can deliver
<godbyk> As far as getting on the CD, I think that generating a docbook (or mallard) version would be a better option there because it'll integrate into the regular help system.
<godbyk> And yes, I think that we should demonstrate we can generate releases regularly and on time before we worry about the CDs.
<godbyk> (We're typically not releasing until after the ISOs are generated anyway.)
<godbyk> Any other final thoughts?
<c7p> hm
<c7p> can we have a program for downloading UM on ubuntu official repos ?
<ChrisWoollard> We probably need to get it packaged
<godbyk> c7p: We'll have to explore that again.  I know others have looked in the past, but there were some issues. (I don't recall the details now.)
<c7p> ok
<ChrisWoollard> Before anybody vanished can ve have a look at the minutes and make any appropriate changes
<ChrisWoollard> http://typewith.me/ToAmust0XX
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://typewith.me/ToAmust0XX
<godbyk> ChrisWoollard: I can take a look at it in about an hour. I have to run off to another meeting now.
<ChrisWoollard> np
<godbyk> What I've seen so far looks good, though.
<c7p> it's ok
<godbyk> I hereby declare this meeting of the Ubuntu Manual Project adjourned!
<godbyk> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 15:47.
<c7p> list of all projects pads: http://typewith.me/OzNMJ6gyKk
<godbyk> Can we specify the pad URL names when we create new pads (like we did with the UK pads)?  Makes it a little easier to track.
<ChrisWoollard> yes
<ChrisWoollard> opps
<ChrisWoollard> no
<ChrisWoollard> We could just use pad.ubuntu-uk.org
<godbyk> I'm not that picky, really.
<c7p> i can't specify them :/ idk where you are given the option
<ChrisWoollard> wiith pad.ubuntu-uk.org you can just type your own name after the /
<c7p> we forgot  Â **ACTION meeting in two weeks , i add it to pad
<ChrisWoollard> e.g http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/MyTestpad
<c7p> ChrisWoollard: your right -_- how stupid am i ....
<ChrisWoollard> ok, thanks
 * ChrisWoollard pretends not to have noticed anything.
<c7p> nice to talking with you guys, i g2g
<c7p> i will create a poll for next meeting and i will send you the link
<c7p> cya have a nice day
#ubuntu-manual 2011-02-27
<jenkins> time to get my head around quickshot again :$
<jenkins> does anyone have a list fo screenshots needed for 10.10?
