#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-04-12
 * abogani waves
<abogani> TheMuso: I really appreciate have you as sponsor for obtain PPU on linux-rt package (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlessioIgorBogani/linux-rtPPUApplication). Thanks in advance!
<scott-work> abogani: PPU = per package upload?  if so, congratulations!
<abogani> scott-work: Yes it is what PPU means _but_ I don't obtain it yet so it is too early for congratulations. But I don't think to achieve it because no one want sponsor me.
<abogani> crimsun: Perhaps Daniel could sponsor me?
#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-04-13
 * abogani it is very astonished _really_ after three years that I did my best for provide realtime kernel no one want sponsor me (to obtain upload rights on it)?
<jussi01> abogani: perhaps you are asking in the wrong place.
<jussi01> abogani: I would if I could.
<abogani> jussi01: Hi Jussi. Do you know what is the right place?
<jussi01> abogani: not really. I guess #ubuntu-devel or #ubuntu-kernel. 
<abogani> jussi01: Already done also on it
<abogani> jussi01: On -motu also.
<jussi01> abogani: I guess its about being patient.
<abogani> Or perhaps simply I don't deserve it.
<abogani> jussi01: By the way when you will have 5 minutes for me... :-)
<abogani> jussi01: Ok now I stop to bother you.
<jussi01> abogani: what do you need?
<abogani> jussi01: You have forget but It isn't necessary after all.
<jussi01> abogani: please remind me. Im incredibly busy these days, so little reminders are good :)
<abogani> jussi01: I dont' want waste your time.
<jussi01> abogani: please let me know what it is you need. If I havent time, Ill tell you so.
<abogani> jussi01: Was about review of my cv by a native English speaker...
<jussi01> ahh
<abogani> :-)
<jussi01> I totally forgot
<jussi01> abogani: do you have a blog syndicated on planet ubuntu?
<abogani> jussi01: No. Why?
<jussi01> abogani: I suggest you get one. 
<jussi01> abogani: then more people in the ubuntu community will get to know you, and you will have more contacts.
<abogani> jussi01: Wow this is a smart suggestion!
<jussi01> :)
<abogani> jussi01: I have created a Linkedin profile some days ago (under friend suggestion).
<jussi01> abogani: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PlanetUbuntu
<jussi01> abogani: you are an ubuntu member,?
<abogani> jussi01: Since 3 three years...
<jussi01> abogani: yeah, I was pretty sure, just had to double check
<abogani> jussi01: Right.
<jussi01> abogani: anyway, follow those instructions and get blogging :D
<abogani> jussi01: Ok. Thanks for suggestion!
<TheMuso> abogani: I would, but I haven't seen any of your recent work, so I don't feel I am in a position to comment.
<ScottL> jussi01, I've received some email back from john dong about backporting and using official backporting vs maintaining an "official" Studio backport PPA
<jussi01> ScottL: and?
<ScottL> surprisingly he suggested we roll like Kubuntu and maintain our own backport ppa, then if the package seems to work for people we could tell the official backporters about it
<ScottL> and they would move it into the official backports then
<abogani> ScottL: Could I have the little wiki page that I requested to you one month ago? 29 April is very near now....
<ScottL> he also sort of obfuscated around putting a Studio team member on the backports team
<ScottL> abogani, yes, this weekend at the latest now, i've finished one commitment and am rapidly completing the last, although I probably will need to query you a little during the week so that I understand the matter
<ScottL> jussi01, this week I am going to respond back to jdong about it, clarify a point or two, and ask if he minds if i push his email to the -dev mailing list
<abogani> ScottL: Things should be more easy than you are thinking. Only a review of my horrible English on my email should be enough.
<jussi01> ScottL: please CC me in on it.
<ScottL> abogani, your english is quite good, better than some who speak it naturally ;)
<ScottL> jussi01, certainly
<abogani> ScottL: Please don't joke (on this at least).
<ScottL> ah, quadrispro left, i was going to tell him i already resolved my problem (oh, i hope) with the plymouth theme package, i fear he is avoiding me ;)
<abogani> ScottL: :-D
<ScottL> abogani, that isn't a joke really, it's more of a poke in eye at people in my country, you're english really is quite good
<abogani> ScottL: I take in great consideration your opinion but _on_this_ (that is my English) I can't believe to you, sorry.
 * abogani failed an other job interview... 
<abogani> Perhaps I start to think about change field? :-|
<ScottL> i find it slightly sad and embarrassing that a lot of people in this country speak only their native tongue and do so poorly
<abogani> s/I/Should I/
<abogani> ScottL: It is the same here.
<ScottL> abogani, i haven't heard you speak english but I am serious when I mention that you write more than adequately
<ScottL> abogani, and I cannot offer opinions about changing fields
<ScottL> TheMuso, hello
<abogani> ScottL: Thanks. I don't believe in it but I really appreciated your compliment. :-)
<abogani> TheMuso: Are you around?
<abogani> TheMuso: Please let me summarize my collaboration status with you:
<abogani> TheMuso: *) All my emails which I sent you about -rt on Lucid are still in my mail client without replies.
<abogani> TheMuso: *) The only one change to -rt kernel (that is -10) on Lucid was made by me. 
<abogani> TheMuso: *) Some time ago you have said me that you never upload my works on linux-rt anymore.
<abogani> TheMuso: *) So without an uploader I'm still doing my work in my PPA (https://launchpad.net/~abogani/+archive/ppa). 
<abogani> TheMuso: *) And I'm still triage bugs.
<abogani> TheMuso: So why you say that you don't see my recent works?
<abogani> TheMuso: I would want recall you that I'm not a Canonical employer and I the only one person that work on this package. So what you exactly expected from me?
<abogani> TheMuso: The first linux-rt package was made by me and I take care of it for *7* Ubuntu release. Perhaphs I'm not superman and surely I have wrong something but I have done the all that work.
<TheMuso> abogani: Ok, I need to look at your PPA to see what you have done recently, however I may not get time this week. I haven't replied to emails in my inbox because I am often quite busy, and could spare little time for the studi oproject. That is why I resigned from the project after lucid releases.
<rlameiro> stochastic: are you there?
#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-04-14
<stochastic> rlameiro, yup, what's up?
<rlameiro> hey
<rlameiro> :DDDDDD
<rlameiro> long time
<rlameiro> stochastic: so you could make it to the interview
<TheMuso> Looks like Debian already has jack2 packaging.
<stochastic> rlameiro, nope, I slept through my alarm.  Working nights and early morning interviews just don't work well together.
<rlameiro> stochastic: yea..
<rlameiro> did you looked at my wiki?
<stochastic> rlameiro, nope
<rlameiro> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/ControlsRedesign
<stochastic> rlameiro, I really don't have time right now to discuss this, but I will get back to you soon about it
<rlameiro> np
<rlameiro> TheMuso: what would be need to use jack and dbus?
<TheMuso> rlameiro: Depends on how Debian build it and go from there basically. It just requires configure arguments I believe.
<rlameiro> so, will it be easy to put it on maverick?
<rlameiro> just packages?
<TheMuso> Ah. Debian are using dbus.
<TheMuso> The packages in Debian use the same namespace, so it shouldn't be too difficult.
<rlameiro> nice
<ScottL> TheMuso, that is surprisingly good news, hopefully it transitions smoothly
<TheMuso> ScottL: It should, and yes I agree, great news.
<panmanphil> hey can anybody tell me what the plans are for an rt kernel for lucid?
<ScottL> panmanphil, i think that a -rt kernel will not be available in the official repositories for the 2.6.32 kernel for lucid release
<panmanphil> that what i have been reading
<ScottL> however, i think that a -lowlatency (or something similar, I can't recall) will be available for the amd64 architectural kernel
<ScottL> but only a -generic kernel will be for the i386 kernel
<panmanphil> Yeah I've tried it but way to many xruns, even for practice
<ScottL> that said, both the ubuntu studio ppa and abogani's ppa have additional kernels in them that you may find helpful :)
<panmanphil> does this mean the ubuntu studio will be kind of crippled like it was in the 8 version?
<ScottL> panmanphil, i've run the -generic kernel on i386 and found it more than acceptable for recording audio
<ScottL> panmanphil, which version is the 8 version?
<panmanphil> Yeah, I've been trying some. the beta 10.04 generic kernel has the neuvous (sp) driver which works great for my laptop + extra monitor
<panmanphil> I can't remember the ubuntu name .... two versions ago where the rt kernel had heavy cpu use problems. 
<TheMuso> Intrepid?
<panmanphil> one sec....
<ScottL> i wouldn't say it will be crippled as you can always use the ubuntu studio ppa or abogani's ppa for other kernels
<ScottL> also the 2.6.31 -rt is always available as well in the official repositories
<panmanphil> hardy
<ScottL> i didn't find Hardy to be crippled, but perhaps i'm only remembering updated kernels after release
<panmanphil> I am using the 2.6.31 and audio is good. I have a headphone jack sense problem though so i can't really use my jacks. Also, the video driver is really flaky
<panmanphil> right, that is what I did as well, updated my kernel after the release. I was using some other kernel modules though, cisco vpn at the time, so updates were more of a pain than I liked
<ScottL> heh
<panmanphil> are any of you using the nouveau video driver? 
<ScottL> i'm currently testing lucid and running the default driver at the moment
<TheMuso> yes with generic amd64 kernel.
<panmanphil> it is working much better than the previous one for me, and handles the two monitors setup very nicely. 
<persia> Grr.  Silly autojoin.  jussi01: I thought you said there was some appropriate redirects for #ubuntu-studio-devel and #ubuntustudio-devel
<ScottL> for those who are interested, last Saturday I did an interview with the Open Source Musicians (#opensourcemusicians) guys about Ubuntu Studio
<ScottL> while i didn't go to heavy about it i did mention that we could use help, primarily in testing and documentation, but mainly testing
<ScottL> from the live streaming interview i've already gotten two emails with offers to help
<persia> Cool!
<ScottL> hopefully when the interview is edited and available on their website there will be more :)
<abogani> ScottL: Yes it is very cool!
 * abogani is wondering if is Lead role is already assigned....
<abogani> So no I suppose... :-)
 * abogani would want recall you that comments are very welcomed on my wiki page (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlessioIgorBogani/linux-rtPPUApplication). So if you are used linux-rt and you find that I have done a good job please help me to obtain per-package rights on linux-rt package adding a little comment on my above-mentioned wiki page (Comments section). Thanks!
<abogani> persia: Are you around?
<abogani> No you can't at 2.45pm :)
<persia> But I can at 2:56 :)
<scott-work> hi persia, abogani  :)
<persia> hey scott-work.
<abogani> persia: I would want let you notice that DMB Agenda report next meeting at 27 April instead your email into -devel-announce report 17 April. What is the right?
<abogani> scott-work: Hi Scott!
<persia> abogani: 27th.
<abogani> persia: Ok. Sorry for disturb.
<persia> You didn't disturb me at all.  If I wasn't around, I wouldn't have responded.
<ScottL> abogani, i just saw your comment about the lead role, no i don't think it is assigned as neither cory or luis are active and they were the last "official" project leads
<ScottL> but to say who...i don't know, i suspect anyone wanting to step up and help, much like any other position i would imagine
<ScottL> if you do it, then probably by default you will be it
<abogani> ScottL: No absolutely.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-04-15
<ScottL> persia, did you see what TheMuso said about jack2 and Debian? they have jack2 packaging, it uses dbus, and uses the same name space :)
<persia> I suspect that happened whilst I was connected to #ubuntu-studio-devel :(
<persia> I'm glad to hear that's in place, so we'll have it for maverick.  Makes sense to me to try it as early as possible, so we have the opportunity to revert if necesary.
<persia> I'm sure we'll have some bugs initially, but we ought be able to take a sensible decision on whether to fix the bugs or go back to jack1.
<rlameiro> well, i think its the best way is to do it the next release
<rlameiro> like that we can have a bleeding edge distro on next LTS
<persia> No.
<persia> We don't want a bleeding edge distro for an LTS :)
<persia> We want a bleeding edge distro for the next cycle (10.10)
<persia> And it slowly gets duller (but more stable) until LTS.
<rlameiro> well, thas what i meant
<rlameiro> I should add a stable bleeding edge :D
<persia> I really don't mind being a bit behind the newest coolest stuff for an LTS if it means it's something that can reliably be used in a studio for a couple years.
<rlameiro> yeah, but d-bus is important for audio
<persia> Yeah, but for the next release (maverick), we should grab the newest, shinest, sharpest stuff out there.
<rlameiro> at least Pulse <-> Jack integration
<persia> At least it makes it easier to configure :)
<rlameiro> it wil be nice that maverick has a new controls panel
<rlameiro> also with the most recent software etc
<persia> Well, we'll have to work at it to make this happen.
<persia> And it's more work, because Debian is freezing for squeeze, so there's a lot of stuff that we'll have to enqueue to drop into Debian Multimedia post-freeze.
<ScottL> like what persia?
<ScottL> oh, and do you jack2 would be bad enough that we would need to regress to jack1?
<rlameiro> persia: is it possible to make a lucid version with jack2?
<rlameiro> without repos, only for test or is to complicated to install deb packages on ubuntu at the moment?
<TheMuso> rlameiro: It will need to go into a PPA.
<TheMuso> rlameiro: But may require jack clients to be rebuil.
<persia> Probably worth doing an ABI comparison to check: it may be possible to not rebuild.
<persia> But that's a lot of fiddling with nm :)
<persia> ScottL: Well, there's lots more LV2 software for example, but we'll find it harder to drop new packages into Debian, so lots of stuff will probably end up on alioth pending squeeze to upload.
<persia> ScottL: Or there may be new upstream versions of core stuff like ardour, hydrogen, etc., that we want to pull, but Debian wants to wait on because of the freeze.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-04-16
<ScottL> troy_s, weren't you and a buddy making a website?
<troy_s> Erk... well we have the Mythbuntu site that needs to get finished.
<troy_s> Slow slogging at this point.
<ScottL> troy_s, have you ever considered a paying job to make a site?
<troy_s> I've been offered it, but to be frank, I've still got too much to learn about them. 
<troy_s> I find them extremely difficult.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-04-17
<ScottL> quadrispro, don't worry about that thing I asked you to help me with, i already took care of it and it was a stupid mistake on my part
<ScottL> forgot to "bzr add" to include the new install file :(    but it's fixed now :)
<quadrispro> ScottL, I'm very very sorry, I got a flu and I was stuck for a week
<ScottL> quadrispro, no, no, i took care of it right after we talked actually so i've been meaning to let you know that it's all good, no problem at all
<quadrispro> ah fine, thanks
<ScottL> TheMuso informed me that it needed to be done post haste since it was the plymouth theme and it was needed for the next beta
 * abogani waves and as usual recall to all to 
<abogani> add comments for my application! :-)
<rlameiro> abogani: what application?
<abogani> rlameiro: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlessioIgorBogani/linux-rtPPUApplication
<rlameiro> abogani: I vote for you :DDDD
<rlameiro> send it to the mailing list
<rlameiro> the dev and the user
<rlameiro> :D
<abogani> rlameiro: Thanks. :)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-04-18
 * TheMuso shakes his head at the mess around jack atm.
<persia> Which bit?
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-04-11
<ScottL> rlameiro, pong
<rlameiro> ScottL: :D hows your sunday going :D
<rlameiro> ScottL: are you folowing the ml?
<rlameiro> I tald Ckontros about ricardo and ana
<rlameiro> maybe they can share some ideas
<ScottL> rlameiro, i'm keeping up a little with the list
<ScottL> rlameiro, cool about ckontros, ricardo, and ana...hopefully something comes from it  :)
<rlameiro> ScottL: yeap :D
<ScottL> TheMuso, i noticed a gross error on my part in the plymouth-theme-ubuntustudio package
<ScottL> TheMuso, is it too late to fix this?
<TheMuso> ScottL: No, but you have less tha 24 hours or so to fix it and get me a patch to upload.
<ScottL> TheMuso, right, i'll do it in the morning (approximately seven hours hence)
<ScottL> TheMuso, i believe it to be pretty straightforward, it seems that the *.png images didn't make it into the package
<TheMuso> Ok
<ScottL> i suspect it was my fault, probably forgot 'bzr add' :(
<ailo> ScottL, How come it worked for a while?
<holstein> i like the idea of XFCE
<holstein> i dont know how avant got mixed in there though
<ScottL> ailo, i suspect it worked because i was using my test build from ppa
<holstein> i think AWN with xfce looks like osx did
<holstein> and i dont need osx functionality
<holstein> but, i think i like xfce
<ailo> If we go for XFCE, I would rather have something more towards gnome, more towards regular Xubuntu
<holstein> yeah
<holstein> i mean, if a dock is mandatory
<holstein> i prefer gnome do
<ailo> But, as you said holstein, all ideas are good, and we can try them out
<ailo> Or, you said, you won't mind giving awn a shot
<holstein> sure
<holstein> it just doesnt seem optional
<holstein> i would like to have an option on the table
<holstein> thats just xfce
<holstein> without any OSX looking crap
<holstein> but, thats just me
<holstein> i
<holstein> ll give it a look
<holstein> but, i used to run AWN
<holstein> in 9.04 and 9.10
<ailo> I don't like the idea of AWN. I've tried it a while back, when I did use docks a lot, but I never thought AWN was any good
<holstein> i think its too heavy
<holstein> i thought it was kinda 'good' i guess
<holstein> slick-ish
<holstein> but, not worth the resources
<ailo> Xubuntu has a nice default look
<holstein> and, if you dont have 3d
<ailo> But, the lower panel might be too much
<holstein> then all that rendering happens on the CPU right?
<ailo> Yeah, if you go for XFCE, you might as well keep it simple
<holstein> i think 1 panel, kinda like we got
<holstein> just xfce
<ailo> Should be enough
<holstein> or, some other light dock
<holstein> if a dock is needed
<holstein> wbar*
<holstein> docky?
<holstein> wbar was the one i ended up with
<holstein> it was light
<ailo> Docky is what is part of gnome do. Docky works, but I wouldn't want to add it as default
<holstein> i forget the others
<holstein> ailo: yeah, see, i wouldnt either
<ailo> Docky improved at one point
<holstein> and i feel like thats what the theme is
<holstein> cory likes AWN
<holstein> and thats great
<holstein> i just want it to be an optional thing
<holstein> because some nice discussion has already started on that thread
<holstein> about resourses
<holstein> anyways... we'll see
<ailo> I feel like cory is very much pushing his own favorite thing, instead of looking at what the community wants
<holstein> i know how to get rid of AWN :)
<holstein> ailo: OK, i was getting that vibe too
<holstein> and just wanted to make sure i wasnt mis-reading it
<ailo> And that's fine with me. It's up to us to give options
<ailo> Unity has been pretty unstable for me. There has been discussion whether they should use it as default for the final release
<ailo> Both Unity and Gnome3 would probably be less stable, and need some serious tweaking to be usable
<ailo> So, I would probably vote for XFCE too
<ailo> Anyway, I think I won't have too much opinion on that now. I will try focus on other things. I might object to the use of AWN, but I will need to try that first
<ailo> ScottL, One thing I haven't investigated yet is to make custom launchers. Have you done that on Gnome3?
<ailo> ScottL, MacInnis is still the lead of art, right?
<ailo> ScottL, I expect a part of his jurisdiction is being handled already if cory helps us move to XFCE (if that is what is decided later on).
 * abogani waves all
<abogani> ailo: You can find the new -lowlatency kernel with right configuration at https://launchpad.net/~abogani/+archive/snmp++/+packages
<abogani> ailo: 39 I meant
<ScottL> ailo, holstein :  if you do not like/want a dock then you should say something on the mailing list :)
<ScottL> ailo, holstein :  because if no one voices a dislike cory will continue to move forward
<ScottL> ailo, holstein : but hopefully we can talk with the AWN people and see if they can code my idea of selectable "context" menus
<ScottL> the idea is thus:  the dock has a left and right side, the left is static and the right is dynamic or selectable or "context"
<ScottL> the left (static) would have things like firefox, or gedit, or whatever launchers you always want visible on the bar
<ScottL> the right, however, would show launchers depending on which "work flow" you selected from a "context selection" button on the dock
<ScottL> so the first "launcher" on the right (dynamic or context) side would allow you to select "record audio" or "midi/sequencer" or "graphics"
<ScottL> this would in turn make certain launchers visible on the right side of the dock that support that work flow
<ScottL> record audio might have visible - qjacktl, ardour, rakarrak, guitarix, hydrogen
<ScottL> midi/sequencer might have visible - qjackctl, qtractor
<ScottL> we would include some sane defaults, perhaps similar to what i have just suggested, but refined and expanded
<ScottL> and the user would be able to modify them as needed
<ScottL>  
<ScottL> ailo, i did "pin" several launchers onto my favorites in gnome3 but did not create custom ones
<ScottL> ailo, yes, mac is still art lead, i was hoping for something a little more definitive before going to him before emailing
<ScottL> ailo, but i need to send the email anyways since it has gone public now
<ScottL>  
<ScottL> TheMuso, i'm rather confused by what happened with the plymouth-theme-ubuntustudio package
<TheMuso> ScottL: Right.
<ScottL> TheMuso, it seems that only some of the images were not included
<TheMuso> Right.
<TheMuso> Were you working in a bzr branch?
<ScottL> TheMuso, oh, and thanks for correcting me in the email
<ScottL> TheMuso, i don't really remember...if i had to guess what i did, i probably did "apt-get source"
<ScottL> TheMuso, however, i was able to get my source from ppa again and compared what is currently coming from the universe source to my ppa source
<ScottL> as far as the plymouth theme, all the i could tell was different were the missing icons
<TheMuso> Right, so re-add them.
<ScottL> so, i'm building in ppa again and will test this afternoon when i get home (10.5 hours hence)
<ScottL> TheMuso, is that too late so i can test it?
<TheMuso> ok well freeze is in effect earlier than I thought, but it shouldn't matter for beta 2, as long as its fixed for final.
<TheMuso> We can at least upload it and it will sit in the queue until beta 2 is out.
<ScottL> TheMuso, okay, so the prudent plan is to test it well then upload which will be included on the final image?
<ScottL> (since there is not an RC this time i believe)
<TheMuso> Correct.
<ScottL> TheMuso, right
<ScottL>  
<ScottL> someone had mentioned that windows look bad in natty, like a mixture of gtk elements
<TheMuso> In what DE?
<ScottL> i can second that when you start with vanilla ubuntu in natty and install the ubuntustudio-look package :/
<ScottL> TheMuso, it was the gnome-classic DE
<TheMuso> oh yeah I remember seeing a bug about that, but the proposed fixes were too invasive.
<TheMuso> I forgot about it though.
<ScottL> heh, i thought the person reporting it had done something wrong on their end :P   at least until it happened to me
<TheMuso> right
<ScottL> okay, getting ready and going to work
<scott-work> TheMuso: i'm sorry how i handled this with plymouth-theme-ubuntu, i really dropped the ball on it
<scott-work>  
<scott-work> interestingly, there is a gnome remix of ubuntu happening:  http://justinstories.wordpress.com/2011/04/07/the-inevitable-is-here-ubuntu-gnome-remix/
<scott-work> http://ugr.teampr0xy.net/
<scott-work> https://launchpad.net/ubuntugnome/
<TheMuso> scott-work: thats ok
<scott-work> TheMuso: at best we narrowly get the package right and in on the final image, at worst it is busted
<scott-work> TheMuso: that part is not so dramatic, however we (i) could have made sure the percentages were better for the "best" part
<scott-work> i'm going to go back to the bug report for the theme and see what the diff looks like, maybe that will help me understand what happened
<scott-work> TheMuso: Binary files /tmp/uKfwiDRBPp/ubuntustudio-look-0.38.3/lib/plymouth/themes/ubuntustudio-logo/animation.png and /tmp/sKyUvD2A5O/ubuntustudio-look-0.39/lib/plymouth/themes/ubuntustudio-logo/animation.png differ
<scott-work> this is one of several lines in the diff that corelate to the missing files
<TheMuso> Right, debdiffs cannot contain binaries.
<TheMuso> Easiest way to solve that is attaching a tarball.
<TheMuso> Anyway, I'm off to bed.
<holstein> scott-work: i'll get on a response
<holstein> i talked to cory in here about it
<scott-work> holstein: okay :)
<holstein> and he seemed to imply that the dock was not optional
<scott-work> holstein: you might inspire someone else to voice their opinion about the dock :)
<holstein> sure, but it seems like it should be the other way around
<l3on> Hi all.. I'm looking for a "ubuntu-studio_logo" based on new Ubuntu Brand Guidelines... could anyone provide it to me?
<holstein> i dont know why the dock is glued to the xfce idea
<holstein> we dont have a dock now
<holstein> anyways... i'll get on it :)
<holstein> scott-work: we dont have a mock-up with the new font yet right?
<l3on> example â http://crenk.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/new-ubuntu-logo-compared.jpg
<scott-work> l3on: i'll have to look and see what we have available, i don't know that i have just the logo sitting around (especially as i'm at work on a windows machine )
<scott-work> l3on: here's probably the best i can do on short notice:  http://scottalavender.deviantart.com/gallery/
<scott-work> it's my deviant art gallery with various mockups of the logo (and other sorted detritus)
<l3on> damn, white on black -.-
<scott-work> this is probably the closest to what we are currently doing:  http://scottalavender.deviantart.com/gallery/#/d2zr4is
<scott-work> except the text colors are not two-tone
<scott-work> l3on: if you give me some more information about what you are trying to accomplish i might be able to help better
<scott-work> and in about 10 hours time (when i'm back at home) i can probably find something better
<l3on> scott-work: yes, get me some mins to show you something...
<ailo> scott-work, I didn't realize you had those ideas about AWN. Didn't connect the dots.
<scott-work> lol ailo, i don't always explain things very well :)
<scott-work> ailo: good posts on the mailing list about the 1010 problems, by the way
<ailo> Well, I tend not to connect certain things, which is why I often double-book.
<ailo> scott-work, Yeah? Ralf does seem like a knowledgeable person. Don't want to feel like I'm pushing I'm around.
<scott-work> ailo: i particularly liked how you tried to entice him to help with documentation with your offer to help edit his english
<scott-work> for two reasons, i suppose
<scott-work> one, it's good to honestly and in good-faith try to get people involved
<scott-work> but two, sometimes it's a good thing to give people the opportunity to fix the things they are complaining about :)
<ailo> Absolutely. That's what the wiki is for anyway. And we should just try to make sure it's up to date and somewhat easy to search trhough.
<astraljava> paultag: Going to install OpenBSD 4.8 in a few. Btw. did you see my "invitation" on Diaspora?
<paultag> astraljava: you rock :)
<paultag> astraljava: no, I missed it
<paultag> astraljava: I've not had internet, my ISP is messing with me again
<paultag> the modem is just on a reset-loop
<astraljava> Not nice.
<paultag> so I'm only online now because I'm at my Uni
<paultag> astraljava: moment :)
<paultag> astraljava: all set :)
<abogani> ScottL, scott-work: Are you around?
<scott-work> yes i am abogani  :)   how are you today?
<abogani> scott-work: Well thanks! And you?
 * abogani is waiting to receive feedbacks about -29-lowlatency kernel...
<scott-work> abogani: more or less okay :)
<scott-work> -29 or -39 ?
<abogani> 39
<scott-work> right, i started to prepare for testing yesterday but ailo suggested waiting until it was fixed or stabilized or something (getting old and can't remember)
<scott-work> abogani: is it ready again to test?
<abogani> scott-work: Yes
<astraljava> paultag: Yup, nice! :)
<scott-work> okay, then i will test it within the next three days - i need to finish updating the plymouth theme so that it actually works first
<astraljava> abogani: I can do a test install tonight too.
<abogani> astraljava: Thanks Janne.
<abogani> astraljava: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-studio-devel/2011-April/003047.html Please remeber to install rtirq-init also!
<paultag> astraljava: :)
<astraljava> abogani: Alright, cool.
<paultag> TTYL, got to head home
<paultag> not sure when I'll have internet again :(
<astraljava> Sure.
<paultag> cheerio!
<ailo> abogani, I am installing now. Will try on both 32bits and AMD64. Funny I had such different results using the -generic version.
<astraljava> See ya!
<abogani> ailo: If you want have constant results (more or less) you should put an heavy workload in background...
 * abogani is thinking to add a package to provide that heavy background work.
<abogani> to help testers.
<ailo> abogani, I should compare what happens with a heavy workload on different kernels. If I get the same result as with previous -lowlatency, a heavy workload had no effect what so ever on jackd.
<ailo> But, I am testing with different sound devices now, which I didn't before. I am suspecting my lack of reliability is caused by my onboard card.
<ailo> abogani, A heavy workload package would be great. Then we know everyone will have used the same test.
<abogani> ailo: Exactly.
<abogani> It makes tests on the same machine comparable at least.
 * abogani has to go.
<ailo> Initial tests seem to show that even my onboard card is working slightly more reliable with 2.6.39. No xruns yet.
<ailo> And the rtirq-init script..
<ailo> scott-work, About testing the kernel. Don't think you need to do much more than start your favorite applications, and have them running for a while. Try using the lowest frames/period you can. For me 64 frames/period is the limit on one of my systems, without xruns. 
<ailo> scott-work, Don't forget to have rtirq-init installed, and make sure you booted with it installed.
<ailo> scott-work, nvidia drivers won't work
<ScottL> sorry, i'm home now, left work to go to doctors for my neck ended up going home with prescriptions
<ScottL> ailo, i do like to open my favorite applications as a base line and get lowest stable settings, then i usually record four or five tracks
<ScottL> i'm thinking of adding some plugins to the previously recorded track while recording a fourth of fifth track
<ScottL> once i find something i like i might even "save" that testing project and reuse it each time a new kernel comes out, maybe store it on my web space and download it as needed
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-04-12
<ailo> ScottL, The Gnome3 link you gave didn't work for me
<ailo> :(
<ScottL> which link did i give you?
<ailo> At least regular Ubuntu didn't mess up my Grub this time
<ScottL> heh :)
<ailo> ScottL, http://ugr.teampr0xy.net/
<ScottL> oh, i haven't tried that yet...i'm still using the maverick install with gnome3 installed on top
<ailo> Have you suffered any crashes so far?
<ailo> Seems like Maverick is the way to go
<ailo> ScottL, What are the main differences between that and Fedora's Gnome3.
<ScottL> fedora's seemed a little more "completed" or "finished"...mainly it was the right side "panel"
<ScottL> no crashes so far, but i should say that i haven't really done too much with it or for very long
<ScottL> i did get jack started with qjackctl and started ardour...made a few new tracks with ardour, but that is it
<ScottL> i think i surfed the internet a bit
<ScottL> added some favourties to me left side menu that comes up with the super key
<ailo> Think I will try installing Fedora. Doesn't really matter so much. Get some audio programs installed, and the just give it testrun. Get to know Gnome most of all
<ailo> Probably good to try using some graphical programs too. Blender as well
<ailo> graphical = programs used to make graphics :P
<ScottL> ooooh, i didn't think of that, good call
<ScottL> i'm talking with jcastro about gnome-panels and gnome3
<ScottL> he might have a good suggestion for testing gnome3 with natty
<ScottL> jcastro recommends:  https://launchpad.net/~gnome3-team/+archive/gnome3
<ScottL> and warns that it's still a work in progress and we should backup any data
<ailo> ScottL, That's the one I tried before, however, I tried installing ubuntu-minimal without a desktop first.
<ailo> Let's see if I can get it to work..
<ailo> ScottL, Have you had problems with Grub menu having a bad resolution for your screen
<ailo> ?
<ailo> There are some issues with Natty, that are a little hard to melt
<ailo> digest, I mean
<ScottL> ailo, not really, just a disgusting color as the background :P
<ScottL> ailo, but seriously, i haven't had *any* problems with grub at all recently
<ailo> I get it all the time. Even with beta 1. I should report it.
<ScottL> yeah, probably so
<ScottL> hi T0rCh_raony 
<ScottL> TheMuso, whenever it is convenient can we talk about the methodology for getting plymouth-theme-ubuntustudio updated?
<ScottL> to avoid any mistakes like i made last time
<TheMuso> ScottL: Wel lthere is only one thing really, if you need to update images in the package, or any other binary file, it needs to be given to me in a tarball. :)
<ScottL> TheMuso, do you need the diff along with the tar ball?
<TheMuso> ScottL: Depends on whether the debian directory is also int eh tarball. If you pretty much build the package and ship the tarball over minus the dsc, I can do the rest.
<ScottL> i presume the tar ball would be more than sufficient
<TheMuso> Yep.
<ScottL> TheMuso, how shall i get the tarball to you?  attach it to the previous bug?
<ScottL> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntustudio-look/+bug/706312
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 706312 in ubuntustudio-look (Ubuntu) "update plymouth-theme-ubuntustudio to remove progress bar for natty" [Undecided,Fix released]
<TheMuso> ScottL: Actually, that package has a bzr branch. Maybe if you make your changes there, I can pull them and upload that way.
<TheMuso> ScottL: And yeah, re-open that bug if you like.
<ScottL> TheMuso, okay, so pull the branch, make the changes, the commit and push?
<TheMuso> yep
<ScottL> if i don't get it done tonight, i will have it done by tomorrow night (24 hours from now)
<TheMuso> Sure no proble,.
<TheMuso> problem
<ScottL> i feel reasonably confident it will work this time as i had built it and tested it, ailo had tested it, we discovered why the .png file didn't get updated, i built it again, and testing it again :)
<ScottL> i just wish i had made the time to address this before, i kept putting it off for other things and the release date snuck up on me
<ailo> We should get Ralf to do some testing on -lowlatency. I bet he would give us some nice facts
<ailo> At least what midi is concerned
<ailo> Didn't think about that yet. 
<ailo> What audio latency is concerned, I'm starting to like 2.6.39 a lot
<ScottL> i'm really considering adding the release schedule to a google calender so i can have reminders
<ScottL> i always seem to be behind on team reporting, release notes, and the like
<abogani> ailo: Are you around?
 * abogani waves all!
<ailo> abogani, I'm here. Happy with the latest -lowlatency
<abogani> ailo: About your last email.
<ailo> abogani, Yes?
<abogani> The last kernel in you email is 38-8-lowlatency: Is it right?
<ailo> abogani, No, typo.
<abogani> Ok
<abogani> So you used open source video driver (nvidia should dead-lock at the moment) and you installed rtirq-init, right?
<ailo> abogani, Right. No nvidia drivers + rtirq-init
<ailo> I mean, I did use rtirq
<abogani> very odd your results about on-board sound card...
<ailo> abogani, That the results are the same?
<ailo> On -generic and -lowlatency?
<abogani> On both because they have same results!
<abogani> I ask you the only last tests:
<ailo> abogani, I have had good results on -generic now for at least a week.
<ailo> So, it is as it was with 2.6.38-1, at the beginning
<ailo> Only two cases where -generic is not performing well, while -lowlatency is. 1. holstein using firewire (don't know which arch) 2. Me using AMD64
<abogani> Could you provide me the output of 'ps -eo cmd,pid,rtprio' and say me the irqs of on-board and 101lt devices?
<abogani> *1010lt
<ailo> Just a moment
<ailo> http://paste.ubuntu.com/593015/
<ailo> On this machine, I have two ice1712 cards, and they are on irq 18 and 19
<ailo> http://paste.ubuntu.com/593016/
<ailo> And this machine seems like the onboard card is on irq 45
<abogani> There is a problem on the last one.
<abogani> ailo: rtirq failed on the last one.
<abogani> ailo: Could you check if rtirq-init is installed on the last machine, please?
<ailo> abogani, It is. However, this is the line about the device and the irq:  45:    6056257          0   PCI-MSI-edge      hda_intel
<ailo> Shouldn't it be IO-APIC-fasteoi? Or does it matter?
<abogani> ailo: Not matter which type of interrupt your sound device uses.
<ailo> ok
<abogani> It isn;t prioritized.
<ailo> abogani, But that is the machine that gives the best results with -generic
<abogani> As you can see all irq have 50 prio.
<abogani> ailo: And the worst with -lowlatency. :-)
<abogani> Try to compare "ps -eo rtprio,cmd" on both machines. You will see clearly the problem.
<abogani> If you ever repeat tests could you add one, please?
<ailo> abogani, Yes. Not only for one device, but for two. I should try to reboot and see if I have made a mistake
<abogani> Only -39-0-lowlatency kernel with and without nothreadirqs kernel option
<abogani> Thanks in advance.
<ailo> You mean, uninstall rtirq-init in between tests?
<ailo> Seems I already have done tests without it on one machine :)
<ailo> I did seem to have slightly better performance, even so, on that machine
<ailo> I will reboot now
<ailo> abogani, It seems booting in safe graphical mode may affect this feature. Can it be possible?
<ailo> I have higher prio now
<ailo> But, at least on this machine, the rtirq is not improving performance so that I can detect it
<ailo> http://paste.ubuntu.com/593020/
<ailo> The lowest latency setting I can use is the same as before
<ailo> abogani, How can I remove the rtirq-init script without removing the kernel?
<abogani> ailo: Why?
<ailo> abogani, The kernel is depending on rtirq-init
<ailo> And when I try remove rtirq it wants to remove the kernel image
<abogani> Yeah but you wouldn't want remove it.
<ailo> How can I disable it?
<abogani> Sorry I have to go out right now.
<ailo> abogani, Ok. See you.
<abogani> Perhaps an "exit 0" at the head of the script.
<ailo> Well, booting into recovery mode, and then using safe graphic mode does disable the rtirq script
<ailo> abogani, I will make more testing later, but from what I see, testing both machines very quickly, I cannot find any significant benefit from the rtirq on my machines. We need to have someone test it who has a device sharing irq and usually gets problems because of that
<ScottL> good morning everyone :)
<ScottL> hi quadrispro, how are you?
<ScottL> so when will unity enter into unstable?
<quadrispro> ehya ScottL, fine :) and you, how'r you doing?
<quadrispro> eh I don't know, I'm working hard on LV2
<quadrispro> rev.4
<ScottL> lol, that was a bad joke on my part about unity :P
<quadrispro> mmm I know that an ITP was opened
<ScottL> i haven't kept up with the particulars, has lv2 changed much for rev.4?
<quadrispro> not so much
<quadrispro> just a number of things for who wants to package LV2 exts,plugins
<ScottL> bu ti guess you still need to rebuild everything with some slight changes
<quadrispro> no need to rebuild anything :)
<quadrispro> I've left /usr/include/lv2.h for backward compatibility
<ScottL> i may seem a a little loopy because i'm using some muscle relaxers for my neck and i'm feeling a little funny :)
<quadrispro> lol
<quadrispro> the really relevant change is: ladish :)
<ScottL> yes it is :)
<ScottL> i'm quite happy to see this coming, i think it beats the pants off of jack session
<ScottL> if what i understand is true
<ScottL> falk is quite taken with ladish
<ScottL> i haven't had much luck with jack-session and it's dreadfully unintuitive to know what you are doing IMO
<ScottL> but that was six months ago or so, i'm sure it's improved since then
<quadrispro> if everything goes fine, within 2-3 months we'll have a first good version of the whole ladish'd stack in Debian testing
<quadrispro> Ubuntu 11.10 will get benefits from that
<quadrispro> and it'll provide ladish, finally
<ScottL> lol, i read that as 2-3 "years" at first and almost fainted
<ScottL> that's really good though
<ScottL> quadrispro, what's debian doing about gnome3?  everyone moving to it?
<quadrispro> really I don't know much things on that topic
<quadrispro> I think we'll move from GNOME2 -> GNOME3 for Wheezy, I don't think GNOME2 will get support for the next 2 years
<ScottL> yeah, that is a concern for ubuntu studio, the majority think that unity or GNOME3 don't provide a good DE for studio work flow
<quadrispro> yep, I've read something via UbuntuStudio ML, I didn't join the discussion due to the few spare time I have these days
<quadrispro> have to go now, see you soon"
<quadrispro> bye!
<ScottL> ciao :)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-04-13
<ScottL> lots of mail flying around on the list these days
<ailo> ScottL, Ladish coming to Ubuntu is good news, I guess
<ailo> Did you manage to get the plymouth in?
<ScottL> ailo, i haven't pushed the changes yet, i wanted to discuss one of the notes i got with TheMuso first to make sure there isn't a problem again
<ScottL> it will be done in time for final release through
<ailo> ok
<ScottL> TheMuso, when you get a moment can we talk about what i pushed to ubuntustudio-look ?
<ScottL> ailo, are you still up?
<ailo> ScottL, I am. Actually just got up. Living like a vampire a bit
<TheMuso> ScottL: Sure whats up?
<ScottL> TheMuso, is there a simple way to pull from the bzr branch and test build plymouth-theme-ubuntustudio?
<TheMuso> ScottL: Yes. Pull the branch, make your changes, commit, and run "bzr builddeb -S --native" to get a package, test build and test.
<ScottL> TheMuso, i actually already pushed, i checked the debdiff to see what was missing, also checked the bzr diff, but just wanted to make sure
<TheMuso> ok
<ScottL> but i can still run "bzr builddeb -S --native" to get the package right?
<ScottL> (but i will write down the commands for next time though)
<ScottL> ailo, i'm really sorry, but i don't remember right now why i asked if you were here :/  i've already had four other things come up
<ailo> ScottL, Well, I'll be here if you need me
<ScottL> ailo, incidentally, i did just get done talking to paul :)
<paultag> heyya :)
<ScottL> in another channel that it :)
<paultag> ScottL: lies! :)
<ailo> Hi paultag 
<ScottL> i was telling him some of the changes coming for 11.10
<paultag> heyya ailo :D
<ailo> There's a lot going on for sure
<ScottL> going upstair to test build the plymouth-theme-ubuntu package one last time....just to make sure
<ScottL> ailo, yeah, i listed
<ScottL> 1. new desktop environment
<ScottL> 2. new UI
<ScottL> 3. kernel with irq threading
<ScottL> 4. -lowlatency in repos (hopefully)
<ScottL> i forgot 5. new website might happen :)
<paultag> sweet :)
<ailo> I think all of those we have to do
<ailo> And about 4. -lowlatency. Let's not hesitate at all
<ailo> -generic is fine, but we need something we can count on, and that is -lowlatency
<ScottL> oh yeah, 6. we are updating documentation
<ailo> So, no matter if -generic can be ok, or even just as good many times, better to push for what we know will absolutely work
<ScottL> ailo, as soon as alessio tells me 2.6.39 is stable and has his git in order i'll build the -lowlatency and start bugging persia
<ailo> Yeah. Documentation too
<ailo> In many ways, I'm feeling 11.10 is going to be year one.
<ailo> A turning poing in almost every Ubuntu Studio specific area, if we pull it off
<holstein> w00t!
<paultag> BBL, heading home
<paultag> TTYS
<ailo> later paultag 
<ScottL> "a turning point", i'm going to add that to cory's oreinic planning page (say that three times fast)
<ScottL> i was adding things like "a new beginning" "not the ubuntu studio you knew"
<ScottL> oh, and that bzr builddeb was a little confusing getting the syntax right
<ScottL> i had to install "bzr-builddeb" but then i had to type "bzr builddeb"
<ailo> ScottL, Could you pass the link to Cory's page, please?
<ailo> Just want to see what's cooking
<ScottL> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Artwork/OneiricConcepts
<ScottL> not much in it yet, just some of my ramblings :P
<ailo> ScottL, About dark themes. Have to say KXStudio has a very goo theme. It's actually practical. I like Mcinnis idea to have three variants. One fully dark, one semi dark, and one light
<ailo> At least have two variants
<ScottL> i like the idea as well
<ScottL> i worry though because i haven't seen mac around lately or heard from him in email
<ailo> ScottL, Yeah.
<holstein> ailo ScottL 
<holstein> did you guys catch that email?
<holstein> https://picasaweb.google.com/jorge.g.mare/UbuntuStudioArtwork#
<holstein> is that kokito?
<ailo> That's looking pretty fine to me
<holstein> its bumpin
<holstein> i like it a lot :)
<ailo> The old ideas became fresh again too
<ailo> It looks great, and it looks practical too
<holstein> and it looks polised and almost finished :)
<holstein> polished*
<holstein> ailo: i thought about putting a new thread together
<holstein> about XFCE
<holstein> im going to see about building an iso first
<holstein> if not
<holstein> just link to puredyne
<holstein> and suggest that we look at XFCE seriously
<holstein> and comment on it
<holstein> seems like the interest is there
<ailo> holstein, I think cory was going to put together an iso
<holstein> i think we should have a thread of people who have actually use it
<holstein> ailo: OH cool
<holstein> i thought i read that he wanted someone else to do that
<ailo> One thing that I don't like about everyone voting for XFCE is that either I don't find their arguments valid, or they have no argument at all.
<ailo> I don't mind XFCE, but I'd like a clear motivation
<ailo> And that is what the discussion should be about, in my opinion
<ailo> So, when someone says, I like XFCE. That's just a personal opinion. Not an argument
<holstein> right
<holstein> thats what the idea of the thread was
<holstein> try this iso
<holstein> and comment
<holstein> otherwise, you dont really have a proper first-hand opinion
<holstein> ailo: i think i know the comment you are talking about
<holstein> something like 'ive heard xfce is just as heavy as gnome'
<holstein> i mean, lets run it
<holstein> open top
<holstein> and see
<ailo> It's not any one comment. But, the idea that XFCE would be less resource intensive does not seem valid to me
<holstein> ailo: i really like that aspect you have brought to the team
<holstein> the 'oh yeah? lets test it' attitude
<holstein> i appreciate that, and learn a lot from the testing we've done
<ailo> Well, unfortunately our testing is a little amateurish and incomplete. Too few testers to begin with, but it's like I heard Linus say about the 200 number code, not very politely: Numbers talk, Bullshit walks
<ailo> And, when it comes to the test results, kernel hackers and all that. I'll trust my results first
<ailo> 200 line* code
<holstein> we have a challenging area
<holstein> with audio devices
<holstein> i mean, you and i dont have common test cases
<holstein> and we're really into testing things
<ailo> It's hard to know exactly how to test before hand, since what we are interested is not the same as what regular Ubuntu devs are interested in
<holstein> but, i think you are helping get in the neighborhood of complete results
<holstein> with time, and more testers
<holstein> Kokito: hey
<holstein> is that you on the list?
<Kokito> hey holstein :)
<holstein> https://picasaweb.google.com/jorge.g.mare/UbuntuStudioArtwork#5594894720374163314
<holstein> ^
<Kokito> yes :)
<holstein> awesome
<ailo> Looks great
<Kokito> thanks :)
<holstein> yeah, im super stoked Kokito 
<Kokito> still not very happy myself, but I will get there :)
<holstein> slick and polished lookiing
<holstein> Kokito: thanks for your time
<Kokito> I need screenshots now
<Kokito> holstein: I enjoy doing this :)
<Kokito> I have a question: is the US release cycle the same as Ubuntu?
<holstein> Kokito: basically
<holstein> i think we might be able to have a bit more wiggle room
<holstein> if needed
<holstein> but, we should be right on track
<Kokito> so US becomes available the same day as Ubuntu then
<holstein> yup
<Kokito> ok
<Kokito> is there a place where one can track US-specific commits?
<holstein> Kokito: probably, but i think ScottL would know that best
<holstein> Kokito: i just got notifications of ISO's that were built
<holstein> to be tested
<holstein> but thats not what you want right?
<Kokito> not exactly
<holstein> you want ubuntustudio specific package build status?
<holstein> stati..
<holstein> staticies
<Kokito> no, I want to be able to see US-specific commits
<Kokito> assuming there are any :)
<holstein> i think so
<Kokito> or is US just a re-packaged Ubuntu?
<holstein> might have missed ScottL for the nite though
<Kokito> np holstein 
<Kokito> no rush :)
<ailo> Kokito, US has it's own desktop. It's similar to Xubuntu and other derivatives in that it share the base, but has it's own set of packages
<Kokito> hi ailo :)
<ailo> hi
<Kokito> ailo: is there such as thing as an US repository?
<ailo> No
<ailo> It's in the main repo
<holstein> not seperate
<Kokito> ok, I see
<ailo> Kokito, All the Ubuntu specific packages start with ubuntustudio-*
<ailo> Kokito, And most of them are meta packages
<Kokito> understood
<ailo> Kokito, But, it won't be exactly the same if you install Ubuntu first and the Ubuntu Studio packages, even though it works of course
<Kokito> now you made me curious :)
<Kokito> what is the difference?
<ailo> As I have understood, getting packages uploaded need to be done by contact with MOTU, or trying to upload to Debian
<holstein> theme-ing is a big difference
<holstein> ubuntustudio-desktop
<holstein> not ubuntu-desktop
<holstein> the look and feel
<Kokito> are the default packages also difference?
<ailo> Kokito, Well, if you already installed Ubuntu, it will have certain things installed, that won't be uninstalled if you install Ubuntu Studio packages
<holstein> but a package here and there too
<holstein> other than just the audio stuff
<ailo> It will probably consume more RAM then a fresh install of Ubuntu Studio
<holstein> the base is more similar now though right ailo ?
<ailo> holstein, I think Ubuntu Studio is older, in a way. But, without Gnome, there is not much difference I believe.
<ailo> Kokito, ubuntustudio-desktop is quite different from ubuntu-desktop'
<ailo> I think that is the main difference
<Kokito> I see
<ailo> network manager is only now being included
<Kokito> has US the leeway to add apps that are not available in the Ubuntu repos?
 * Kokito can't access https://code.launchpad.net/ubuntustudio
<ailo> Yes. Those would be: theming, ubuntustudio-controls
<ailo> Don't know if there are any more
<ailo> So, there isn't very much
<ailo> theming = ubuntustudio-looks (and it's dependencies)
<Kokito> aha
<Kokito> what about the kernel? I read all these messages about rt and lowlatency, so was under the impression that US used a different kernel. is that the case?
<ailo> There isn't really a need for any more than that, except for multimedia packages that aren't in Debian yet. And of those, I don't know if any have been uploaded to Ubuntu's repos on US's account
<holstein> hopefully the generic kernel will be up to the task soon
<holstein> but -lowlatency should be in the repos for us i think
<ailo> Kokito, There used to be an -rt kernel, uploaded by the Ubuntu Studio team. ScottL will try uploading -lowlatency for next release
<holstein> aboganI has a PPA for those kernels
<ailo> For next release I will be looking at if there is something missing in Debian that Ubuntu Studio could have use for, so if something isn't there, I will probably try get it in. Sound system specific stuff in that case
<ailo> I would use KXStudio as an example as well as others.
 * Kokito is checking out what KXStudio is
<Kokito> interesting...
<Kokito> are there any significant differences between US and KX from a user POV?
<ailo> Kokito, The guy developing KXStudio, falktx is looking to become more involved in Ubuntu Studio as well, and he hangs around here quite a lot
<Kokito> cool!
<ailo> Kokito, There are a lot of differences. falktx is probably using everything that the linux audio world has to offer
<ailo> He's trying to simplify and abstract things
<Kokito> that sounds like a good idea
<ailo> I don't have a lot of experience with that distro yet, so I would want to see how stable it is and so on
<ailo> But, there are some things that are definitely worth doing. 
<Kokito> and looks like there can be a lot of potential synergies with US
<ailo> He does some coding too, and has developed some software
<ailo> For hosting plugins, session handling etc
<holstein> jack runs at login on KX
<ailo> Right, and pulseaudio is a client for jack. No need to work with qjackctl. A lot of the apps are newish for Linux veterans. I think that's a part of the problem for me. Too much of a big step at first, so I for one need to dig in a bit to find out what's really going on
<holstein> yeah, i like stopping and starting JACK
<holstein> using different profiles
<holstein> but, i use the hell out of falks KXstudio PPA's :)
<Kokito> man, the ubuntu wiki is really sloooooooooooooow
<Kokito> oh oh, Internal Server Error
 * abogani waves all
<Kokito> hey abogani 
<Kokito> time to hit the sack here
<Kokito> good night folks
 * abogani wonders if anyone could help him to write an email...
<ailo> abogani, I don't expect that I can be of much help. I'm sure you do fine by yourself, but I could take a look if you want.
<abogani> ailo: I would want avoid people misunderstanding me but it is very simple (one or two sentences).
<abogani> ailo: Could you please write an email in user- and dev- notify people that maintainer for -lowlatency and -realtime kernel are vcacant, please?
<ailo> abogani, I see. Well, I believe ScottL could handle that. 
<ailo> -lowlatency does not seem to be a big problem to mantain, but -realtime does seem like it would be best that someone who has experience would mantain that
 * abogani agrees
<abogani> ailo: In any case I would want make a special thanks to you. In last the months you have been the best user and the only one tester.
<ailo> abogani, Thanks. It has been my pleasure to do so. btw, you live in Prato, right? My sister lives there.
<abogani> ailo: Really?
<ailo> She is a Java programmer in some company in Firenze
<abogani> How little is the world! :)
<ailo> I've been visiting a couple of times. Very nice city
<abogani> ailo: I hope you are talking about Florence (and don't Prato) ;-)
<ailo> Well, I don't know Prato so well. But, to me it was nice. Also in Florence. 
<scott-work> ailo, abogani:  do either of you know what kernel is used in natty currently?
<scott-work> 2.6.38 no ?
<abogani> scott-work: Ubuntu Natty? 2.6.38-8.42
<scott-work> abogani: thank you :)
<ailo> T0rCh_raony, Wazzyp?
<scott-work> does anyone have time to test the Natty beta 2 image?  We still need both amd64 and i386 images tested?
<holstein> scott-work: :/
<holstein> it'll be late tonite
<holstein> are we under the gun for today?
<scott-work> holstein: i can ask on #ubuntu-release
<holstein> scott-work: i'll check in tonite after the gig
<holstein> and i'll get on it if i need to :)
<Kokito> does Ubuntu Studio include Renoise?
<holstein> Kokito: no
<holstein> its not in the repos for sure
<holstein> i dont think it can be?
<holstein> maybe they could be talked into the software center
<Kokito> is Renoise a commercial product?
<Kokito> looks like it is
<scott-work> TheMuso: sorry to bother you again, could you help me with a HAL dependency issue?  bug 760008
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 760008 in debian-installer (Ubuntu Natty) "amd_64 studio install fails" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/760008
<scott-work> holstein: thanks, that would be awesome, be aware that it will probably fail for amd64 though
<scott-work> but if we can at least test the image (i.e. that it will _try_ to install), then we have met the commitment
<scott-work> i'll do up the i386 tonight as well
<scott-work> holstein: but before you start testing be sure to check:  http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/build/ubuntustudio/all
<scott-work> already since i started typing to you an hour ago there have been more tests completed
<holstein> scott-work: cool
<scott-work> holstein: hold off testing until we get more information about that bug
<TheMuso> So hal.
<TheMuso> It has bene left in atm, we need to check to see whether anything needs it that studio uses.
<holstein> ScottL: i'll check in here when i get home
<holstein> before i do anything
<falktx> hey guys
<falktx> how is US going?
<falktx> beh, later...
<holstein> falktx: yeah
<holstein> good to see you falktx :)
<holstein> we are making some progress for the future i think
<holstein> good stuff coming
<falktx> cool
<holstein> https://picasaweb.google.com/jorge.g.mare/UbuntuStudioArtwork#5594894720374163314
<holstein> ^ that kind of thing
 * falktx checks
<falktx> I have some mails to answer, but can't do it now
<holstein> falktx: nah, you dont have to
<holstein> its just a site theme in the works
<holstein> i gotta run too
<holstein> laterx
<falktx> holstein: new webpage looks way cool!!
<falktx> me too, laterx
<ScottL> falktx, 
<ScottL> ladish is hitting debian
<ScottL> should be in ubuntu 11.10
<falktx> ScottL: good news
 * ScottL is reading backscroll from this morning
<falktx> cya
<ScottL> hi TheBeedle 
<ScottL> abogani, i would love to handle the maintainence of the -lowlatency kernel
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-04-14
<meganerd> That does not sound like a whole lot of fun
<ScottL> holstein, i wouldn't worry about testing images tonight...it appears more is broken currently and it's not coming up yet
<ScottL> TheMuso, as far as you know do we actually need hal in the seeds for anything?  if not, i'll put it on my list to update for ocelot (if it doesn't yet get removed...again)
<TheMuso> ScottL: No we don't need it, but something still may depend on it.
<ScottL> TheMuso, should it be in the seeds then, or should it be a hard dependency (the use of "hard" is my term for having something in the control file)
<TheMuso> ScottL: Really packages that need it should depend on it, but please read Colin's explanation in the bzr log.
<ScottL> TheMuso, will do, thanks
<ScottL> ailo_, you reminded me of something i wanted to mention
<ailo_> Yeah?
<ScottL> you made a comment about no one having a definitive reason to choose xfce over others
<ScottL> xfce provides a similar environment compared to what uses are used to with gnome-panels
<ScottL> neither gnome3 nor unity would do that directly
<ScottL> not saying this is a goal or requirement, but it is something to consider
<ailo_> I think my comment was more about that Gnome3 and Unity have most of what Gnome2 has. XFCE is more traditional, yes. One will not need to learn anything new to use it.
<ailo_> XFCE reminds me more of Gnome2 then anything else as well. The panels aren't exactly the same, but more alike than for instance KDE
<ailo_> ScottL, If it was the mail list you meant. On this channel I said, that I would like for people to give valid arguments to why we should choose one over the other
<ailo_> Not just say, I like this, so +1
<ailo_> I'm still not against XFCE. I still think it might be the smartest way to go.
<ailo_> Just want to explore through testing alternatives and discussing the alternatives
<ailo_> And as for the arguments: RAM usage, in my opinion is not a valid argument
<ailo_> Having a stable system is my strongest argument against Gnome3
<ailo_> I mean, Gnome3 may present us with problems. But, that's not certain either
<ailo_> I heard there was some tweaking possible with Gnome3 as well. I heard about a dock
<ailo_> Gnome3, with a tweakable dock, and being stable, and supporting anything Gnome2. That could be a valid alternative
<ailo_> At least, I would like to find out
<ailo_> ScottL, Anyway, that's pretty much all I have to say about that. I don't have a definitive opinion yet, because I haven't explored the alternatives fully yet.
<ScottL> ailo_, i'm really hoping that whatever we choose can also support a live dvd without much work from us :)
<ailo_> ScottL, That is one area I am sure anyone could learn how to do, but it takes time. There are of course people with those skills already, but to do that with Gnome3, it would need to be someone who is open to the idea. I'm not sure, with everything I am committing to for the next release, that I will have time to explore that.
<TheMuso> A live DVD will require much more disk space and CPU time, something that I am not sure Canonical will be willing to give.
<TheMuso> And more work.
<ailo_> ScottL, With so many people voting for XFCE and clearly that is inspiring people, plus all the other benefits with the live CD, I guess it would be crazy not to go with XFCE.
<ailo_> Well, badly explained, but I think you get what i mean :P
<ScottL> TheMuso, more work for us, canonical, or both?  who should we talk to within Canonical to explore if it is acceptable?
<ScottL> TheMuso, i would really like to transition to a live dvd
<ScottL> TheMuso, i know that arguments about possible bad performance of a live medium
<ScottL> but i think we are losing potential members because they can't showcase and give away live dvds or usb
<ScottL> versus any we might loose because they might suffer bad performance
<ailo_> ScottL, I just don't get the idea that there would be bad performance
<ailo_> ScottL, Apps will load slower, if the live medium is slow. 
<ScottL> one of the strongest (or at least most pervasive) arguments against a live dvd was that it would result in turning people off because of bad performance
<ailo_> At least, that is what I have gathered, that actual audio performance will not change at all (as long as there is realtime privilege)
<ailo_> Because the apps live in RAM, not on the medium. They are just loaded from the medium
<ailo_> So, when running a process, it should be pretty much the same deal
<ailo_> KXStudio seemed to use Desktop FX on the Live medium. I should try again, but that didn't seem ideal. Puredyne, however is XFCE, and live. We could all try that out and see for ourselves
<ailo_> Puredyne might be the best example for us, performance-wise
<ScottL> sorry, wife got home and we talked a bit
<ScottL> ailo_,  my point is that even allowing that performance might be bad i think the numbers of users we would lose from that
<ScottL> ailo_, is less than the number of users we are not reaching due to not having a live dvd
<ScottL> the libre graphics people are an example of the later, these lost opportunities
<ScottL> ginger said that she goes out a lot and likes to give away live medium and would like to with ubuntu studio but can't :(
<ScottL> she has been giving out fedore design suite lately
<ScottL> but i concede that it may be time or permission prohibitive for us, either in the short term or even at all to have a live dvd :(
<ScottL> but this, along with better jack-pulse integration, is still one of the most common user concerns/complaints/desires i believe
<ailo_> ScottL, Yes. I agree, fully. And, I don't understand what the point is about Live medium giving worse performance. 
<TheMuso> ScottL: You want to talk to Canonical. Its not that much more work if any at all, but it requires more CPU time on the servers.
<TheMuso> ScottL: If you only go down the live root, things shouldn't be too bad disk space wise.
<ScottL> ailo_, i don't give credence to whether it does or doesn't.  i have no experience with studio performance on a live medium.  i'm just saying that even allowing this it were true i believe there are good reasons to still pursue it
<ScottL> sigh
<ScottL> i'm just saying that even allowing this were true, i believe there are good reasons to still pursue it
<TheMuso> Well now that we can use USB sticks, performance should be acceptable from a USB stick.
<ScottL> i'm avoiding the mostly subjective (at this point because no one can test what we don't have) argument of performance
<ScottL> TheMuso, that is a very good point (or counterargument to some)
<ailo_> ScottL, We can test Puredyne.
<ScottL> ailo_, right, but that's not ubuntu studio :P
<TheMuso> ScottL: The only questino in my mind, is just how many fo the packages do you put in the live image? i.e do you put the desktop and maybe audio in the live session, and put the rest on the DVD as extra installs?
<ScottL> ailo_, but i allow that i would expect the performance to be fairly comparable, unless they have a horribly out of date kernel
<ailo_> ScottL, It's based on Ubuntu Karmic, and uses the -rt kernel that Ubuntu Studio used. It's practically the same thing, though older
<TheMuso> gah typing
<Kokito> hello folks
<ScottL> ailo_, ah, i didn't know that
<ScottL> hi Kokito 
<TheMuso> You will also have to write a ubiquity plugin to give users a choice which tasks to install at install time.
<ScottL> ailo_, i guess that does make it a closer comparison than i had expected
<holstein> ScottL: cool, i'll wait on the testing
<ScottL> TheMuso, i hadn't thought any further than trying to build consensus on building a live dvd ;)
<TheMuso> Right, but its something that needs to be considered.
<ScottL> holstein, apparently launchpad's network was having some difficulty which was causing broken images (i think)
<ScottL> TheMuso, absolutely, i agree
<ailo_> We could also ask if puredyne people would like to assist us
<holstein> ScottL: hey, that sounds like a fixable problem then
<holstein> more easily fixable
<ScottL> ailo_, aye, i suppose you are right :)
<holstein> ailo_: i was just reading your email, and thinking the same
<ScottL> TheMuso, cory was considering talking to edubuntu people about their installer (re: ubiquity plugin)
<ScottL> at least i presume it is a ubiquity plugin
<ScottL> TheMuso, does vanilla ubuntu have particular packages on the live image and the rest to be installed?  i don't know if you can answer that
<ScottL> Kokito, i like the stuff you are doing with the website
<ScottL> Kokito, i certainly seems to stand heads and shoulders above
<Kokito> ScottL: thanks!
<Kokito> I am about to send out another email with links to a few more screenshots
<Kokito> here they are...
<Kokito> https://picasaweb.google.com/jorge.g.mare/UbuntuStudioArtwork#5595278554459506242
<TheMuso> ScottL: No, vanilla Ubuntu has everything on the live image. The only packages outside of that are for hardware support.
<Kokito> https://picasaweb.google.com/jorge.g.mare/UbuntuStudioArtwork#5595278554875022562
<Kokito> https://picasaweb.google.com/jorge.g.mare/UbuntuStudioArtwork#5595284881897234786
 * TheMuso goes digging for the edubuntu plugins.
<ailo_> ScottL, holstein, Just to repeat myself a little. I think I'm done considering UI's. Since practically everyone's for XFCE and there's a momentum for it, I'm all for XFCE. Were you at all considering other options ScottL?
<holstein> ailo_: cool
<ailo_> I mean, are you still, seriously..
<holstein> i wanted you to be behind it
<holstein> you had very valid reason to *not* use it
<holstein> reasons*
<ScottL> ailo_, i'm not sure really, i suppose not, my brief experience with gnome3 and unity didn't really inspire me
<ScottL> ailo_, while xfce seems a closer transition, less of a shock
<ailo_> I'm sure it will be a fine system.
<ScottL> Kokito, i like the new screenshots...particularly the improved banner at the top
<ScottL> ailo_, but to be honest, i was truly depending on your opinion after your testing :P
<ailo_> ScottL, Thanks. I guess I'm just a little hyped about Gnome3, or something
<ScottL> if you had put forth emphatic defense of one or the other (balanced with good reason) i would have considered one of the others more
<ScottL> enough for tonight, i'm going to bed
<ailo_> I'm really supposed to be coding puredata patches this month. We're planning some gigs in early summer, and I need to finish some stuff. I believe I will have most time to put in on documentation and such May / June.
<ailo_> Anyway, I'm on here all the time
<ailo_> Think I'm going to be a little more laid back for a while, though
<ailo_> GN ScottL 
<Kokito> good night ScottL 
 * Kokito better get some dinner
<Kokito> bbl
<TheMuso> I'm somewhat off PD, at least till it better supports multiple CPUs/cores.
<ailo_> TheMuso, [pd~] doesn't do it for you?
<TheMuso> ailo_: Haven't 1) heard of it, and 2) tried it.
<ailo_> I haven't pushed it that far yet. I was using a Pentium 3 not long ago.
<TheMuso> right. So what is pd~, better yet, got a link?
<ailo_> [pd~] creates a new instance of pd, but I haven't used it much.
<ailo_> It's included with the vanilla puredata
<TheMuso> oh bah thats less than satisfactory IMO.
<ailo_> It's supposed to use the next core
<TheMuso> On one hand, I can uderstand the POV, the user has to make their patches multi-core aware.
<TheMuso> understand
<TheMuso> But on the other, users just want to get on with building patches.
<ailo_> I guess there aren't many devs in those areas. There's some problems with the gui too, I think
<ailo_> But, it works for me
<TheMuso> Fair enough.
<TheMuso> I haven't used PD for ages, but I was talking to a colleague who told me about hish issues with pd, and it not being multi-threaded/core aware etc.
<ScottL> new image for ubuntu studio was built last night...anyone who can test it would be appreciated
<ScottL> as you were, all test are already complete...i'm guessing by jibel
<ScottL> http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/build/ubuntustudio/all
<ScottL> good morning, abogani, i would like to take over maintenance of the -lowlatency kernel
<ScottL> abogani, i'm afraid that someone else,however, will need to commit to the -rt kernel
<ScottL> lots of relatively "new" people....hi, Daviey , meganerd , phed__ T0rCh_raony TheBeedle  :)
<abogani> ScottL: Yeah. Definitely a good news! 
<abogani> New people I meant.
<abogani> ScottL: You'll have a lof of fun with -lowlatency! It is very easy to maintains.
<ScottL> good!  because i have limited time for it ;)
<abogani> ScottL: You won't have to patch video close drivers, fight with packaging, test it and so on as like as you take over the -realtime.
<abogani> ScottL: In any case ailo wasn't able to obtain good results with -lowlatency (or better of the -generic at least). So I really don't know if it is worth.
<ScottL> that is a very good point to explore
<ScottL> i hope next week i can devote a contiguous chunk of time to test as well, alessio
<ScottL> TheMuso, given the amount (and substance) of change we currently have planned for 11.10, i do not think exploring a live dvd is appropriate yet, perhaps for 12.04 as holstein prognosticated :P
<TheMuso> ScottL: ok
<marcelC> hello
<marcelC> why ubuntu studio use a real time kernel (patch)
<abogani> marcelC: The goal is to let our users record their music without glitches.
<marcelC> dose this affect's photo work as well?
<marcelC> the emulated photoshop with wine will work faster with the real time kenrel?
<marcelC> or just sound & video?
<abogani> marcelC: just sound.
<abogani> marcelC: Real time kernel is slower than the -generic one for that type of applications!
<marcelC> uhm, okay
<marcelC> 10q/thx
<holstein> scott-work: if you get a minute
<holstein> let me know what you did to prepare for maintaining the -lowlatency kernel
<holstein> im pretty sure -rt maintaining is over my head still
<holstein> but id like to give it a look
<holstein> and see if its something i could prepare for
<holstein> wow
<holstein> so we are all tested then right?
<holstein> http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/build/ubuntustudio/all
<holstein> jibel?
<holstein> who is that?
<holstein> thats awesome :)
<scott-work> holstein: i only know jibel from #ubuntu-release
<scott-work> i'm not sure exactly who he is or what is responibilities are
<scott-work> holstein: and we should still probably check the images anyways just to make sure because i believe jibel is using an automated system to check these
<scott-work> which may not be a real install or might miss something...don't really know though
<scott-work> but considering that we had significant problems on these images and this is the last testing before releasing it would be good to test them
<scott-work> perhpas not immediate as in RIGHT NOW, but hopefully in the next few days
<scott-work> maybe we could get ricardo to test an amd64 image as well
<scott-work> i'll take the i386 ones
<scott-work> holstein: oh, this is what i did for the -lowlatency kernel:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScottLavender/scratchpad
<scott-work> i think abogani did all the hard work, mine part in it was menial
<ailo_> scott-work, Just to clarify on results. I believe -lowlatency does outperform -generic. On my other system the difference was big.
<ailo_> I don't trust -generic, and would need to see more results from other computers
<ailo_> Also, I believe holstein gets a big difference between the two
<ailo_> So, again, I would not hesitate on -lowlatency, if not for any other reason than that it is at least so far, the most reliable
<ailo_> But, also, because tests so far seem to indicate that -lowlatency is better.
<scott-work> ailo_: i'm not hesitating to test :)
<scott-work> i'm really hoping that between you, i, holsten, and perhaps ricardo (maybe even ralf) we can cover some good ground
<scott-work> compare our results and hopefully derive a confident answer
<scott-work> whichever way the answer is :)
<scott-work> which may not be that -lowlatency is needed, but then again, it might be
<scott-work> but what i don't want is to not be able to definitively defend -lowlatency's position in the repository if asked
<ailo_> scott-work, More testing would indeed be good. However, already I do believe -lowlatency fills a function. It is better and more reliable. On my amd64 box, -generic is not usable for me, while -lowlatency is even better than on my intel 32 bit. And holstein had a difference too.
<ailo_> scott-work, Yes, more testing would be good
<scott-work> ailo_: i realize you have already tested quite a bit, but can you commit to helping with a comparative testing suite next week
<scott-work> ailo_: where multiple people can try to run the same* test and compare results?
<scott-work> * i realize they cannot be explicitly the same, but as close as we can to hopefully derive an conclusion
<ailo_> scott-work, Sure. And, we could ask people on irc to help us. I see holstein has showed interest in mantaining the kernel. This I could do also.
<scott-work> ailo_: maintaining a kernel in ubuntu would be a long term committment, are you up for that?
<scott-work> ailo_: i got the impression six months ago or so you might be transitioning at some point to another distro
<scott-work> but please don't think i'm trying to discourage you :)
<ailo_> scott-work, I commit for one release at the time, but I would not quit maintaining the kernel even if I would stop contributing actively to Ubuntu Studio. At least not until someone else would take it over.
<scott-work> ailo_: that's cool :)
<ailo_> scott-work, I'm about to learn packaging, and the kernel bit will need some more knowledge if that is to be viable, but I think I'm up for it
<ailo_> I will be packaging -controls either way
<ailo_> In my repo
<Kokito> good morning folks
<meganerd> good morning
<meganerd> also Hi back at ScottL
<scott-work> hi Kokito :)
<scott-work> meganerd:  :)
<scott-work> oh Kokito i will see about getting you some screenshots
<scott-work> in fact i will email you one now
<Kokito> that would be great scott-work :)
<scott-work> Kokito: i'll work on others tonight
<scott-work> and see if can build some momentum on the mailing list
<Kokito> sounds good Scott
<meganerd> it looks like you guys are testing the -generic vs -rt kernels, how are you testing and do you need help?
<meganerd> or rather -lowlatency
<ailo_> meganerd, Do you have Natty installed?
<ailo_> meganerd, It would be great to get some help with the testing.
<ailo_> meganerd, What you need basically is Ubuntu Natty, the -lowlatency from abogani's PPA, jackd + a program you like, and of course: realtime privilege
<meganerd> My DAW is currently 10.10, but I have an abundance of hard drives at the moment.  Also my DAW is one of three computers so I am not terribly worried about downtime
<meganerd> Currently it is a Sandy Bridge with a custom kernel.
<meganerd> how are you testing the kernel?  How do you measuring the difference between the two kernels?
<ailo_> meganerd, We don't have any good tests, but just by doing something simple is enough because we only want to know what difference there is between -generic and -lowlatency
<ailo_> meganerd, Whatever you choose to do, do the same on both. For instance, jackd + ardour. 
<ailo_> Just by starting jackd we get some info on the difference between the two
<ailo_> meganerd, But, the lowest latencies are usually not usable with programs.
<ailo_> meganerd, I was able to start jackd with the lowest possible latency setting there is using -lowlatency and only getting a couple of xruns
<ailo_> meganerd, But, I wouldn't be able to run programs
<ailo_> meganerd, So, the goal is to get the lowest latency that doesn't give xruns. Also, you need to run the test for a while
<ailo_> meganerd, At least for 10-15 minutes would be nice
<scott-work> quick logo i knocked up during lunch:  http://imagebin.org/148208
<ailo_> scott-work, A little yin and yang. Looks nice
<ailo_> scott-work, meganerd holstein: I started a new page where we could assemble testing results between the kernels as well as give instructions on how to test them
<ailo_> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/generic_vs_lowlatency_testing
<ailo_> I'll be updating it today
<scott-work> ailo_: eh, i'm stupidly not good with graphic design, i just ideas every now and then and hope that someone with better skills and talent can do something with it
<scott-work> ailo_: another one i was "playing" with:  http://imagebin.org/148211
<scott-work> the "play" on words should be obvious
<scott-work> some of the parts have moved though and it's just a working mock-up i did quickly
<scott-work> "some of the parts have moved" means that is why it probably looks warped or untrue
<ailo_> I guess it might be a good idea to have a ardour project that everyone uses, though I don't think it matters for the tests.
<ailo_> I can't see any difference at all relating to different usage of the same program
<holstein> ailo_: hey, if you would do some hand-holding
<holstein> and help me get started
<holstein> probably more than started
<holstein> i would be interested in looking at maintaining that kernel
<scott-work> ailo_: do you think over the next couple of days you can help me test the i386 ISO images?
<scott-work> holstein: doh, i didn't know you were around, just sent an email to you
<holstein> scott-work: i just got here
<holstein> scott-work: i should be able to get through some today and tomorrow
<holstein> im off tomorrow mostly
<rlameiro> scott-work, i jus answered to your mail, i am not at home. at the moment I am in lisbon and only go home in sunday
<rlameiro> i just have this little netbook, so testing isos isnt as good
<ailo_> scott-work, I can help with the testing. We start now?
<ailo_> Ah, damn. i386. But, I guess it doesn't matter if I install them on amd64 system
<ailo_> holstein, I could help you with that absolutely
<holstein> ailo_: cool
<holstein> let me look at scott-work 's link
<holstein> and i'll ping you when i have time to work on it
<ailo_> holstein, I could upload on my own PPA and you on yours. This way we can trade some info
<holstein> ailo_: great idea
<holstein> i'll look into setting up a PPA
<ailo_> holstein, Sure. I'm preparing to upload myself now, and have done so already once, but it failed building
<ailo_> holstein, But, it was another kernel
<ailo_> holstein, So, I can help you so far at least
<ailo_> holstein, The problems are more on understanding everything
<ailo_> holstein, But, with time, I'm sure the both of us can do that
<ailo_> holstein, I will be doing that, either way
<ailo_> I mean, learning how to do it
<scott-work> thanks holstein and ailo_  :)
<scott-work> heh, and ricardo already left 
<ailo_> Trying to open qjackctl, to look at what the settings are called and it keeps crashing. :(
<ailo_> meganerd, I'm putting together some instructions here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/generic_vs_lowlatency_testing
<ailo_> scott-work, holstein, and anyone interested. You have a look too, and give comments please https://wiki.ubuntu.com/generic_vs_lowlatency_testing
<scott-work> ailo_: i will look at that later tonight
<ailo_> scott-work, I practically redid what we started on testing before, but also added some instructions for it.
<scott-work> very loose plan for what we have discussed for 11.10:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/ReleasePlanning#Oneiric%20Ocelot%20%2811.10%29
<holstein> ailo_: yeah?
<holstein> we dont get -lowlatency in the repos?
<holstein> that sux
<scott-work> holstein: why would you say that?
<scott-work> re: not getting it into the repos
<holstein> more of a question really
<holstein> we dont get it for 11.04?
<ailo_> holstein, Nope. And I think the main reason for that is that to few were helping out with testing and verifying if it really was needed
<ailo_> So, let's try to straighten that out for the next release
<holstein> well, i want to raise a little hell for a bit though
<holstein> if that is the case
<holstein> and see if we cant get it pushed now
<holstein> i mean, we wont need it for lond
<holstein> long*
<ailo_> holstein, I am of the opinion that -generic does not cut it. But, we need more machines and more results to clear that up
<holstein> probably just the next 2 releases
<holstein> we are seriously handicapped without it
<ailo_> holstein, It's hard to say. Of course, machines get faster, and already that makes things easier
<ailo_> holstein, So, -generic will work in the future, no doubt
<ailo_> holstein, I agree. We need it now
<ailo_> the -lowlatency
<holstein> why would anyone use ubuntutstudio?
<holstein> when we cant provide a decent user experience out of the box
<holstein> we are litereally the only one that cant
<holstein> KX can, AVlinux
<holstein> dont get me started on 64studio
<holstein> but it does too
<holstein> puredyne, musix
<ailo_> It's getting to be a little frustrating,
<holstein> we need that kernel
<ailo_> And having it in the main repo would mean all Ubuntu derivatives can use it, including KXStudio, Puredyne etc
<ailo_> Which they absolutely would, if it was in there
<ailo_> holstein, How many computers can you test with Natty? Which archs are those?
<holstein> ailo_: i have a laptop
<holstein> single-core 64bit chip
<holstein> ive been meaning to blow it out
<holstein> so, i think i'll just do the tests on it
<holstein> ailo_: what about you?
<holstein> you want to devide and conquer?
<ailo_> holstein, I have already done a lot of testing on my inte 32 bit. I recently tested on amd64. I will be adding the results for both of those later
<holstein> cool
<holstein> ill ping you then later
<holstein> i can get to whatever you dont
<holstein> later tonite
<holstein> or tomorrow
<scott-work> i do have a 64 bit machine and a 32 bit machine i can pull out to test
<scott-work> both with on board audio though
<holstein> scott-work: you know about the kernel?
<ailo_> scott-work, That would be awesome. onboard is not optimal, but should do for the sake of comparison
<holstein> i thought we had a hail-mary kinda thing going on
<holstein> for the -lowlatency
<ailo_> holstein, Here are some results from earlier this year. As you can see, -generic was no good a lot of times. Strangely, it is better now, but only on my 32 bit machine
<ailo_> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RealTime
<holstein> interesting
<ailo_> But, I didn't include latest results yet
<ailo_> holstein, Tests done 2011-02-30 -31 show you that -generic is performing as well. Later it didn't
<scott-work> holstein: i think one thing that held us back was that persia seemed to disappear
<ailo_> The same kernel, even..?!!
<holstein> i think by 12.04 or so
<holstein> -generic will be fine
<holstein> and thats awesome
<holstein> but for now
<holstein> we *need* -lowlatency
<scott-work> ailo_: i like what you started for testing, the better we can codify what we did to test the more likely others will help
<scott-work> plus it helps make sure the tests are all comparable
<holstein> what about JFo ?
 * JFo perks up
<holstein> persia was just going to put it in right?
<holstein> can you do that JFo ?
<scott-work> holstein: even if we go tthe kernel into the repo it wouldn't be good for us at this point
<holstein> or get me in touch with someone who can?
<scott-work> holstein: our last test image has already been made for this cycle
 * JFo is oblivious to the convo
 * JFo reads back
<holstein> scott-work: OH
<holstein> so its over then
<holstein> I C
<scott-work> holstein: it would be really bad form to switch kernels at this point :(
<holstein> that sux
<holstein> i mean, at least folks are used to it
<holstein> since 10.10 is totally inadequate as well
<holstein> the guys who really take advantage of the kernel will know how to deal with it
<holstein> its the guys that read, and think they need it
<holstein> and dont really know how to deal with adding PPA's
<holstein> and google AVlinux or whatever
<holstein> and just bail
<holstein> whatever, i'll get over it here in a bit
<holstein> its a drag though
<ailo_> To use ubuntu studio for serious audio work: 1. you need to fix realtime privilege yourself, 2. You need to get an external kernel.
<holstein> i think i need to re-gear my brain for the future
<holstein> and quit worrying about who we are losing
<holstein> and think about what we are doing in the future to gain folks
<scott-work> ailo_:  #1 is only required if you start with vanilla and "upgrade"
<ailo_> scott-work, It is? Not the last time I checked
<scott-work> #2 will be taken care of with ocelot and 2.6.39 kernel
<ailo_> scott-work, How so? 2.6.39 only adds irq priority, not a faster kernel
<scott-work> ailo_: i believe so, i haven't had to add myself to audio group with a full install from dvd that i can remember
<ailo_> scott-work, Well, my arguments stand
<scott-work> ailo_: sorry, #2 will be taken care of with -lowlatency 2.6.39 kernel
<scott-work> which i fully expect to get for ocelot
<ailo_> scott-work, Right. And I hope we can be firm about that
<holstein> lunch...bb
<scott-work> ailo_:  i plan to be unflinchingly firm about it, provided we do our part and the results are favorable :)
<scott-work> ailo_: but how so on #1 ("my arguments stand")
<ailo_> scott-work, I'm happy to hear that. It really is the most essential component as far as I am concerned
<JFo> make sure you guys are in on the kernel version session of UDS. that is, I think where your issues should be brought up.
<JFo> as I am not the person who gets to make those decisions, it is the team's effort
<scott-work> JFo: i'm not sure how much UKT will be involved in this because it's a "community" maintained kernel which will be in Universe
<JFo> true
<ailo_> scott-work, I need to reinstall ubuntu studio to find out about audio group and /etc/security/limits.d/audio.conf. My installations of the DVD usually fails, why I often try other solutions, like last time with usb stick, which only installed the base system.
<scott-work> although we are still waiting for the documentation from the last blueprint ;)
<ailo_> scott-work, And the reason for failed installations is usually a bad DVD burn
<scott-work> ailo_: i'll double check as well when i install again, tonight or tomorrow
<ailo_> scott-work, There's also the matter of adding new users. Those should also be a part of audio group by default
<meganerd> ailo_: Thanks for that link.  I will give it a go once I get Natty installed.
<ailo_> scott-work, It would be easiest if Ubuntu would do that for us, but I expect they won't accept that
<ailo_> meganerd, Great. There will be a few of us, at least 3 others so far to do the tests. The more the better
<scott-work> ailo_: i wonder how many ubuntu studio setups have multiple users, it's something i've never really considered before
<ailo_> scott-work, It should be the default when adding a new Ubuntu Studio user. I don't know how the installation of Ubuntu Studio does that, but either way, we need it. 
<ailo_> scott-work, But, of course, it's not as important for user Nr 2..
<scott-work> ailo_: during installation, when creating the first user, it should add the user to the audio group
<scott-work> ailo_: but when adding additional users i don't believe this is automatic (adding to audio group)
<ailo_> scott-work, Should be just a matter of adding a new type of default groups for users
<ailo_> scott-work, I will look into that for next release. Also about the possebility to add the user to audio group if installing stuff from vanilla Ubuntu
<ailo_> scott-work, It would make sense if installing jackd did that, but I wouldn't know where to do that. Perhaps it needs to be done from Debian
<scott-work> ailo_:  i thought the update -controls would handle the "from vanilla ubuntu" aspect
<ailo_> scott-work, It will.
<ailo_> scott-work, But, perhaps it shouldn't have to. Anyway, I'm going to make it do that
<scott-work> ailo_: having -controls handle stuff is cool, but it would be even nicer if we had a package that you installed to "upgrade"
<scott-work> it would install all the current applications and make any systemic changes required
<scott-work> after asking, "Are you sure?"
<scott-work> :)
<scott-work> that would be cool
<scott-work> maybe even with some checkboxes asking which aspects to install...i.e. audio, graphic, video packages
<ailo_> scott-work, -controls should be a tool to handle system settings, but as las said, giving user realtime prio is a do it once and forget it thing
<scott-work> right, which is partly handled by installing jack currently
<scott-work> since the user still needs to be in the audio group
<ailo_> scott-work, Yes. And if Ubuntu would agree to let all users be members of audio group by default, we don't need to do anything
<scott-work> ailo_: eh, as you said, i don't think ubuntu will do that
<ailo_> scott-work, If not, we could look into how we can do that
<ailo_> From our packages
<scott-work> ailo_: but i'm pretty sure this is only a problem if you upgrade from vanilla
<scott-work> if we are going to adjust a package to help to add the user to a group, then i say we go all the way and help the user "upgrade"
<meganerd> ailo_: I wonder if we could put together a script with common source material to run the same test on several machines?  The idea would be to create an ardour project, or script something to use csound or mocp, that all testers would be running the same test.
<scott-work> meganerd: that would be mega-awesome!
 * scott-work apologizes but couldn't resist
<meganerd> holstein: why is 10.10 totally inadequate?  
<ailo_> meganerd, Well, we could. And perhaps the main benefit would be about jack settings. 
<meganerd> scott-work: I guess that sounds like I just volunteered, doesn't it :)
<ailo_> meganerd, I think a script could work, but I don't think we need it, unless we are planning on something long term and more detailed
<holstein> meganerd: same reason
<meganerd> ailo_: that is what I was thinking.  Currently I am running 10.10 @ ~5 ms latency with an RME card.  I have not tried to push beyond that.
<holstein> the kernel cant support some workflows
<holstein> for realtime audio
<holstein> *the default out-of-the-box kernel
<meganerd> ailo_: I was thinking long term.  Ideally something that we could eventually automate.
<meganerd> holstein: your answer does not make sense to me.  Same reason as what?
<meganerd> holstein: nm
<holstein> same reason as 11.04
<holstein> neither one has a kernel for that need
<holstein> out of the box
<holstein> you can add PPA's
<meganerd> holstein: I thought that 11.04 had a better kernel?
<holstein> meganerd: the -generic kernel is better
<meganerd> holstein: I though I saw some patches get merged upstream?
<holstein> and will be perfectly fine very soon
<holstein> but for now, not happenin
<ailo_> meganerd, It does. But, one reason for the testing would be to find out how good it really is. We won't have a "multimedia" kernel. Only the -generic one.
<ailo_> in the 11.04 repo, that is
<ailo_> meganerd, The -generic kernel isn't configured with preempt options like -lowlatency. That is the difference
<ailo_> meganerd, And, we need to find out how big the difference really is
<ailo_> in performance
<ailo_> meganerd, So, a script would give us what? An automated way to start programs and check for xruns?. I started working on a script like that before
<meganerd> ailo_: I understand.  I built my own kernel for 10.10 (I have a Sandy Bridge that replaced the previous machine that died), the first one I compiled with voluntary (not lowlatency), and it was quite good.  Sub 10 ms.  I have not pushed either very far.  I suspect that there will not be a huge difference, but I guess that is why we need the testing.
<ailo_> meganerd, One one of my machines both kernels are as good. One the other, there's a huge difference. With some numbers, maybe we can start to see some patterns
<meganerd> ailo_: Basically doing the boring stuff.  Start jack, run some audio, record the results (number of xruns etc).  Stop jack, start over with lower latency.  The kind of thing I could run and walk away from.
<ailo_> meganerd, Right. And, we don't need anything more than that basically. We could add cpu load, but from what I've seen that is not a reliable way to do the tests anyway. 
<meganerd> ailo_: doing this by hand is not fun.  The easier you make it for less technical people, the more results we can get.  As it is, the best can get is a mild "feel" for which is better.
<ailo_> meganerd, I agree. But, there is a chance that less technical people will do something else to throw the test off. However, a script might be better than no script. 
<meganerd> ailo_: I am not sure that 3 of us are going to generate enough data to be able to make a meaningful interpretation.   I am all for the testing either way.  The science training is hard to walk away from :)
<ailo_> Let's see. Getting xruns would need a command passing error messages, catching whatever message looks like an xrun and react on them
<meganerd> ailo_: First things first, I will put Natty back on a drive, I have some projects that I could just load, and see if there is a difference between the two kernels.  From there the rest is basically how much time do I have
<ailo_> meganerd, That's what it comes down to. 
<meganerd> ailo_: parsing a text file for predictable patterns in an automated fashion... if only we had some tools for that sort of thing :)
<ailo_> meganerd, Let's start with just us 4 people testing. The main thing for me is to have some diversity with machines
<meganerd> ailo_: anyway, i am happy to help out.  I have written more than a few scripts in my time, so I will consider this part to be my problem.  
<holstein> a script like this would be for the alsa driver only you think?
<holstein> maybe there could be a firewire one seperate
<scott-work> "diversity with machiens" ...and also diversity of audio interfaces as well
<scott-work> i think this will play a huge part
<holstein> can the script collect info as well?
<holstein> like lspci information ?
<holstein> and uname?
<holstein> free
<ailo_> holstein, A script should ask you what devices you are to use. The best would be if it saved a settings file that you can reuse for all the settings
<holstein> ailo_: hey
<holstein> i like that even better
<ailo_> scott-work, Yes. Firewire vs pci and usb would be interesting to see
<ailo_> holstein, I'm not going to write one though :)
<holstein> this sounds do-able
<holstein> but, you would help meganerd with one right?
<holstein> i would
<holstein> lets think about it, and try and talk in a few days
<ailo_> Well, if we are to really push this on to the community, maybe that is exactly what we should do
<scott-work> it's a shame that we don't know a grad student looking for a thesis in computer science and audio performance :(
<scott-work> ailo_, holstein, meganerd: maybe an email to a few mailing list and ask for ideas, comments
<holstein> yeah, that too
<holstein> its a lot to take on
<holstein> but i really see it as do-able
<holstein> after this little brain storming session
<ailo_> Really, the script does not need to do much. But, it will take some time to write it
<holstein> it would be nice it there were something it could upload to
<holstein> in launchpad or whatever
<holstein> or something easy to paste into a wiki page
<ailo_> holstein, The thing is, the more options the script has, the more work. But, if we are planning on doing more testing later, a script like that could be used for many purposes, and we could reuse the different parts of it
<holstein> if its as future-proof as possible
<holstein> least maintenance
<ailo_> Ok, so the way I see it. Are we going to ask a big crowd of users to help out with testing? If yes, then the test needs to be as easy as possible. A script could help us with that. 
<holstein> i think it would be a nice tool
<holstein> and a nice resource
<scott-work> for the short term (i.e. next week) we should at least just test our machines by hand
<holstein> assuming the results are easily postable
<ailo_> A script would need to check for prerequisites, give user realtime privilege if missing, install programs if missing, ask the user to reboot and restart the test, then produce results, either in the form of a text file, or send it to our mail list automatically (in which case the user first needs to add mail and password)
<ailo_> Launchpad, I don't know how that would work
<holstein> ailo_: i think thats a great goal for it though
<holstein> it actually wouldnt have to give RT permissions
<holstein> or install a kernel
<holstein> it could just state the facts about the system
<holstein> run the test
<holstein> and put out the results
<ailo_> holstein, Well, how can we trust someone not technical to have set up the system right?
<holstein> ailo_: yeah, im just saying, even if jack runs as-is
<holstein> with bad results
<holstein> thats a result
<holstein> as long as the information is shared
<holstein> the facts
<ailo_> holstein, We can't have that sort of hidden variables in a test. We have no idea how that would change the results of the test
<holstein> right
<ailo_> holstein, Also, if we get strange numbers from a test. The next step would be to find out why.
<holstein> im just saying, it will be un-hidden
<holstein> we will know
<ailo_> holstein, Yeah, ok
<holstein> i mean, thats the kind of thing folks want to know to
<holstein> when i suggest installing a new kernel
<ailo_> holstein, Well, setting up the system is not the hardest part to implement into the script anyway
<holstein> or whatever
<holstein> they say 'how much better?'
<holstein> and i say, not sure
<holstein> ailo_: true
<ailo_> So we might as well.
<ailo_> And there are certainly all kinds of things we can't know will affect the test too
<holstein> sure
<holstein> i would like to have the output of cat /proc/interrupts
<ailo_> The main thing is of course, that the tests are executed similarly on both kernels, and we get a diff between them, if there is one
<ailo_> holstein, Ok. I will make note of that. I'll start putting up some points that we could include in the script
<holstein> cool :)
<ailo_> holstein, That suggestion would be a part of a general system info. arch, kernel, audio devices...
<scott-work> ailo_: we could work up some of the things we would like to know and do it manually next week
<scott-work> 1. uname
<scott-work> 2. cat /proc/interrupts
<scott-work> 2. etc
<scott-work> use all this as the possible basis for moving forward with a script
<ailo_> scott-work, holstein meganerd Started a new page about the script where we can add ideas on what the script should do https://wiki.ubuntu.com/generic_vs_lowlatency_test_script
<meganerd> I figured on "lspci -vv |grep -A 5 -i  audio" as well
<meganerd> This will also output the firmware version of cards like my RME 9652
<ailo_> meganerd, Please add to the wiki page as much as you want
<ailo_> meganerd, And rearrange as well.
<holstein> meganerd: ever better :)
<meganerd> won't let me log in, internal server error
<ailo_> meganerd, I get that every other time
<ailo_> Also, after saving edits. 
<scott-work> meganerd: hit F5 or refresh
<scott-work> but i was editing it as well though
<meganerd> did that several times.  Eventually just deleted everything after the word script in the url and hit enter
<ailo_> meganerd, Right. And if your edit disappeared, just go back
<ailo_> in history..
<ailo_> meganerd, After an edit I will often have to refresh without the addition #preview in the url. If the edit was not saved, I go back in history. 
<meganerd> good to know.  I usually avoid wikis :)
<meganerd> Is csound usually installed with the ubuntustudio-audio?
<scott-work> not anymore, but it could be again
<scott-work> i think we were all stepping on each other's toes for a while editing that page :P
<meganerd> I only ask because once upon a time I used it on a netbook from the CLI
<meganerd> handy from a scripting point of view
<scott-work> csound could be a dependency for this script if it is pacakged
<meganerd> I can do the data collection part in an hour or so, spawning jack and csound and doing something will take me a lot longer, especially since the wife is at the end of her shift rotation :)
<ailo_> meganerd, I added some more on the wiki. I'm not adding anything more for a while
<ailo_> meganerd, On the prerequisite part, I can handle that. If you do start writing a script, just make it do the actual test for now, and we can add the rest later
<scott-work> going home
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-04-15
<meganerd> ailo_: well, I have a very rudimentary data collection banged out.  Work was busier than expected so I did not get any further.
<meganerd> ailo_: also, lsusb is tougher to parse than lspci.  I just need to add a second step.  
<meganerd> ailo_: If you want to have a look at it here is the latest (pretty tame) version: http://paste.ubuntu.com/594260/
<ailo_> meganerd, Ok. I'm sure we can solve that later on. Then there's starting jack and ardour. Don't know if we can change frames/period on the fly. I think it's possible. xruns from starting application should not be counted. Last time I only came as far as passing the error message from jack, but I didn't parse it.
<ailo_> And I've never started ardour from the command line either
<ailo_> Actually, it may be wiser to use another program
<ailo_> puredata is a nice tool
<ailo_> meganerd, On installing the kernel and giving user realtime privilege, I already have a script that does that, after checking on those. Just to let you know there is code on that.
 * Kokito wonders if he is still connected to the channel...
<ailo_> Kokito, ?
<Kokito> ah, I am :)
<Kokito> hi ailo_
<ailo_> Hi. 
 * Kokito has done a bit of work on the new website theme front page
<ailo_> Kokito, Are you getting close to letting us try it out?
<Kokito> ailo_: as soon as a get the front page slider images done, I will put it online for you guys to play with it
<Kokito> most likely next week
<ailo_> Kokito, If you don't have anywhere else to put it, just use my server later
<Kokito> I have hosting space/bandwidth
<Kokito> it's shared hosting, but for staging should be ok
<ailo_> Kokito, ok
<Kokito> thanks for the offer though :)
<ailo_> Kokito, Sure
<Kokito> brb
<meganerd> ailo_: I was thinking of using csound since it has a complete CLI interface. We can also start and stop jack whenever we want, we would just start it with different variables.
<meganerd> ailo_: it is not a hard problem, just a tedious one.
<ailo_> meganerd, Sounds like a deal, then
<ailo_> I should look into that program myself. Gotten used to do everything in csound
<ailo_> I mean puredata
<ailo_> Since some apps aren't up to par when it comes to stabilityu
<ailo_> meganerd, We don't need anything special happen either. But, to cut down the testing time, I think we need to do one thing
<ailo_> meganerd, We start with the lower settings. As soon as there is an xrun, or a certain number of xruns, we go to a higher latency
<ailo_> meganerd, When it can run for a longer period of time without xruns, we have the results we need
<ailo_> meganerd, At least, it needs to run for some time on the lowest possible latency, before we can determine it was stable
<ailo_> meganerd, There are some weird things happening with -generic, that doesn't look normal xrun-wise to me, on one of my systems.
<ailo_> meganerd, So, we need to give it some time..
<meganerd> ailo_: we can just specify the settings in an array, or start from a baseline and just increment from there.  The idea I had was to use csound and some sample audio, it would copy it, transform it, mangle it, basically simulating the sorts of things that happen in the real world.
<meganerd> ailo_: looks like I am going to be dusting off my bash guides :)
<ailo_> meganerd, I think the test needs to run for at least 5 minutes on one setting
<ailo_> meganerd, So, it would be good to skip a setting, if there is a lot of xruns already in the beginning
<ailo_> meganerd, Just mark it: unusable, or something
<ailo_> meganerd, And, when a setting works, no need to go further
<ailo_> No need to count xruns at all, reallyu
<ailo_> Unless, we want to compare unusable settings as well
<meganerd> well, I am going to have to in order to determine severity.  I would probably ignore the first 10-30 seconds until everything is loaded, 
<meganerd> I want to keep the overall footprint small, so even netbooks can get usable results
<ailo_> meganerd, Yeah, We don't want to count xruns that come from loading
<ailo_> netbooks. Just realized I have one... :P
<ScottL> ailo_, are you still going to be able to help with ISO testing?
<ailo_> ScottL, Sure. Do we start now?
<ScottL> sure, now is okay :)
<ScottL> i'm downloading the ISO still
<ailo_> ScottL, Daily?
<ScottL> ailo_, i was using the official qa testing iso, i'll get the link
<ScottL> http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/info/5457
<ScottL> i won't be able to start and finish one tonight, but i can start it tomorrow after work
<ailo_> ScottL, Ok. Got it. So, we do this, once a day?
<ScottL> no, we just need to install these images to validate the actual ISO
<ScottL> ailo_, these are milestones we need to do throughout the cycle
<ScottL> it wouldn't hurt to test a few other things, like does jack work as expected
<ailo_> ScottL, Ok. I thought we did this because of some problems
<ScottL> ailo_, yes, there were problems with the ISO actually building at one point
<ScottL> unfortunately, the problems came when we were scheduled to actually test the beta2 iso
<ailo_> ScottL, Ok. I will install today. I'll try to test as much as possible, just to have a good look at it ( I really need to setup network installation, cause DVD burning is not optimal )
<ScottL> ailo_, are you able to do a full install?
<ailo_> ScottL, Haven't tried from DVD in a while now
<ScottL> if not it's okay, i can do all the test, it will just take a little bit of time
<ailo_> ScottL, As long as there's no problem with the image, I should be able to install
<ScottL> ailo_, oh, good :)
<ScottL> sorry, wife got home and we were catching up a bit
 * holstein is home
<holstein> ailo_: let me know what you dont get to
<holstein> i need to mess with my bass a bit
<holstein> but im around
<ailo_> I'm downloading now. Expect to install within an hour. If I fail to make a DVD, I might have to wait a couple of hours, but no later than 4
<ailo_> Or, no more than 4h from now
<Kokito> new iteration of website front page: https://picasaweb.google.com/jorge.g.mare/UbuntuStudioArtwork#5595645470727783042
<ailo_> Kokito, You've been working on categories too. Looks great
<holstein> yeah
<holstein> smokin :)
<Kokito> glad you like it :)
<Kokito> ailo_: what do you mean by categories?
<ailo_> Kokito, Audio, Video, Graphics. Not much work, but seeing that, it looks like it's supposed to be there
<Kokito> ahhh! :)
<Kokito> I see what you mean
<ailo_> I think we might want some kind of quick-guide somewhere, or at least links to documentation. The way it works now, on the official site, I don't think is optimal. We're supposed to work out a new form for documentation for the next release, and the links on the main site should reflect that
<ailo_> Probably, the main documentation will be in the wiki, anyhow
<holstein> i just zoomed in
<holstein> it gets even better
<ailo_> But, I guess we have lots of time to decide some of the details, which is great
<Kokito> ailo_: my idea is to take this in stages
<Kokito> first get the theme and basic structure done
<Kokito> then add features & content
<Kokito> gradually
<Kokito> with regards to the documentation, it could be migrated to the website
<Kokito> it makes sense having all the information organized in one place
<Kokito> and Drupal can accommodate wiki content w/o problems
<Kokito> but whether that happens or not is out of my hands :)
<ailo_> Kokito, It would probably be better to leave community documentation on the ubuntu wiki site, but if there is to be a Ubuntu Studio documentation, and the format is easy to mantain, perhaps we could add it to the main site. I'm thinking, at least a quick-guide of some sort, and links to videos
<ailo_> Kokito, But, I think we have until 6 months to decide that
<ailo_> Burnin', burnin', burniiiin'
<ailo_> installin', installin', installiiin..
<ailo_> ScottL, It won't go past the tasksel. Even when I don't choose any. Could be a bad DVD. Will try on virtualbox
<scott-work> ailo: holstein: and anyone else interested, the original thought on kokito's front page and the "categories" (i.e. "welcome", "audio", "video", "graphics") was too....
<scott-work> be a concise place for people who didn't really know about ubuntu studio to learn some good stuff quickly
<scott-work> kinda like bullet point overview of what studio offers
<scott-work> if you didn't know anythign about ubuntu studio, as a musician, what would you like to learn that might entice you to download and try ubuntu studio
<scott-work> and i think the progress of kokito's work is brilliant!
<ailo> Yeah. It's looking very nice
<ailo> Very clear
<ailo> Inviting
<ailo> I'm installing on Virtual Box now
<ailo> The install failed on my machine earlier
<ailo> Couldn't get past tasksels
<ailo> scott-work, And the background is purple on the alternate install
<ailo> Not the end of the world :)
<scott-work> ailo: which background?
<ailo> scott-work, During installation using the alternate DVD.
<scott-work> i have a purple-ish background for the grub menu which i think is sick, i'm guessing it's the same colour
<ailo> scott-work, It seems to be installing now
<scott-work> i feel the colour of the grub menu doesn't look "artsy" or "styling" or "wow", rather it looks like my montior is broken or it's a mistake
<ailo> scott-work, It's like this every other time I burn a DVD
<scott-work> ailo: that's good it's installing now :)
<ailo> scott-work, But that's on virtual box, though
<scott-work> ailo: that's strange, i've almost never had problems with burning dvd's
<ailo> scott-work, But, now it failed :(
<scott-work> i tend to use RW dvds and eventually the disc goes bad but that's really about it
<scott-work> ailo: awww, it's okay, you tried, i'll get them all this weekend
<ailo> scott-work, I probably don't use the best sort of DVD's
<scott-work> my son won't be happy he will not be able to play minecraft while i do it though :P
<ailo> scott-work, It's not any tasksel either
<ailo> It's won't install even if I select none of them
<ailo> It's funny that this can happy at beta 2 stage
<ailo> Did we miss it at beta 1?
<ailo> Don't think I did a real install then
<ailo> happen* 
<ailo> scott-work, Seems like it's hal
<ailo> scott-work, The log said, ubuntustudio-desktop: Depends hal, but is not installabe
<ailo> scott-work, hal has been removed from the standard Ubuntu Desktop a while back, and it is supposed to be outdated
<holstein> ailo: i got so tired of tasksels
<holstein> i think it was 9.04
<holstein> i swore them off
<scott-work> hal should still be available although in the universe repository
<scott-work> ailo: but maybe i royally screwed up with the ISO link :/
<scott-work> i keep looking at this image the kokito did because i think it rocks so hard: https://picasaweb.google.com/jorge.g.mare/UbuntuStudioArtwork#5595645470727783042
<scott-work> ailo: wasn't this the link i gave you?  http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/build/ubuntustudio/all
<scott-work> if so then this should be the current images
<ailo> scott-work, That's the link I used
<ailo> hal caused the problem
<scott-work> interesting, i'll double check this tonight/weekend
<scott-work> holstein: did you get any ISO testing done?  did you experience the same problems as ailo?
<holstein> scott-work: i saw the issue
<holstein> and decided to hold off a bit
<holstein> scott-work: will there be fixes?
<scott-work> holstein:  i don't know that the trouble isn't specific to ailo's situation, i was hoping to have corroboration with someone else
<ailo> scott-work, The trouble was that hal couldn't be installed. There was no error message about it being corrupted. I looked in the syslog, and it just said, it can't be installed
<scott-work> ailo, i have downloaded the same ISO as you (i believe), if i have the same trouble I will then download the daily image and try again
<scott-work> i know that there was some changes to the seeds during part of the QA testing with HAL
<scott-work> it may be a situation where HAL is a problem and we *do* need to pull it out
<scott-work> it may be a problem that was outside the scope of the image building problems that were experienced
<ailo> scott-work, They seem to be updated now and again. Mine was downloaded the same time as yours yesterday.
<scott-work> they rebuilt the image several times the other day so it may be a complete crap shoot as to which one we got :/
<scott-work> i am tempted to just download the latest daily image and start there, but i really do want to see if there is a problem with the beta 2 image
<ailo> scott-work, Right. I should try downloading again, and use Virtual Box this time to test that it works first
<holstein>  cool
<holstein> im getting on it then...
<holstein> ailo: was that 32 and 64?
<ailo> holstein, 32
<ailo> holstein, That's what I was told to install by ScottL
<holstein> http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/build/ubuntustudio/all right?
<holstein> thats where im getting them
<ailo> holstein, Tried on my machine and virtual box
<ailo> holstein, Right
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-04-16
<holstein> COOL
<holstein> i think the 32bit is going to go through
<holstein> the normal intall
<holstein> install*
<holstein> ScottL: you there?
<holstein> ailo: ?
<holstein> i did the normal install
<holstein> task select worked
<holstein> but the desktop was funky
<holstein> the theme
<holstein> let me reboot...
<ScottL> holstein, sorry was out eating with family
<ScottL> i should do an install later tonight after we settle down
<holstein> ScottL: cool
<holstein> let me know what you find
<holstein> im on the 2nd one
<holstein> the LVM encrypted one
<holstein> 32bit
<Kokito> howdy
<ScottL> holstein, ack, it's already almost 11:00 pm here, i'll start it first thing in the morning
<holstein> ScottL: yeah, im calling it a day too
<holstein> i got 2 cases done
<holstein> but the theme-ing looks funny
<holstein> we'll see what you find
<ScottL> ailo, do you remember the log you looked at when your install failed?
<ailo> ScottL, Yeah...
<ailo> ScottL, Did you install again?
<ScottL> i did and it failed at installing software
<ScottL> this is bad, very bad
<ailo>  ubuntustudio-desktop: Depends on hal, but is not installable
<ailo> something like that
<ailo> I wonder why holstein was able to install
<ailo> ScottL, Did you check the log? 
<ScottL> ailo, i can't remember the log location, that's what i'm asking about
<ailo> ScottL, /var/log/syslog
<ScottL> ailo, copy that, going upstair to check
<ailo> You'll probably find it at the bottom
<ailo> The error that is
<ScottL> ailo, i have multiple problems with labavcodec52 and libavcode-extra-52 and a few other av packages
<ScottL> i didn't see any thing for hal, but i didn't look either
<ailo> ScottL, Ok. I never looked at the log for my machine install, only on Virtualbox, which would seem it wasn't about a bad burn at least
<ailo> I didn't double check the image, though :P
<ScottL> i'm going to download the latest daily image and test it as well
<ScottL> if that fails as well then i will continue my freak out at that time
<ailo> I will try too
<ScottL> hi Kokito 
<ailo> ScottL, Seems to be installing this time. But, I didn't choose any tasksels in my first attempt like last time
<ailo> So, I'm going to try with a tasksel again, and see if that causes a problem
<Kokito> hi ScottL  and ailo 
<ailo> Kokito, Hi
<ailo> Kokito, We're testing to install the beta 2 release
<Kokito> cool ailo 
<ScottL> hi falktx 
<ScottL> ailo, i'm about to start installing
<falktx> hey
<scott-upstairs> ailo, wierd thing, last image which was from the qa testing had the purple background you talked about
<scott-upstairs> the daily on i'm testing now has a medium blue
<scott-upstairs> strange
<scott-upstairs> but it looks better
<ailo> scott-upstairs, That's strange. It was purple now during install for me
<ailo> scott-upstairs, I was installing on Virtualbox and the theme fails on that. But, I'm pretty sure that it is related to Virtualbox. 
<ailo> I've had that before
<scott-upstairs> ailo, this is where i got the image earlier today: http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntustudio/daily/current/
<scott-upstairs> i selected all software and it is installing
<scott-upstairs> i might have to leave the house soon for an hour or so though
<ailo> scott-upstairs, I see. Well, I'm still using the one you gave me before.
<ailo> scott-upstairs, That would mean it's been fixed, then
<scott-upstairs> hmmmm, i made to configure real time priveliges for jackd which it didn't do before
<scott-upstairs> i'm hoping this is good
<ailo> scott-upstairs, Good thing you reminded me. Otherwise I would have forgotten to check that again 
<ailo> scott-upstairs, Seems like the install is working. Just need to do it on my machine as well to check about the theme, then I'm satisfied.
<ailo> scott-upstairs, Did you have theme problems?
<ailo> scott-upstairs, Ok. The user is in audio group. Forget about what I said about new users also. Creating new users is a different thing anyway. They get no sudo privilege either, so that's the administrators duty to fix that
<ailo> So, what is missing is only a way to give users realtime privilege when installing from repo
<ScottL> ailo, i successfully installed with today's daily build
<ailo> ScottL, I had a succesful install with the image from the previous link, though I expect it was updated in between my downloads
<ailo> ScottL, Looking at the links now...
<ailo> ScottL, The one that failed was from 13th of April
<ailo> The one that succeded was from 14th of April
<ailo> The one I downloaded last was from a link /daily/current. The other two before that were /daily/<date>/, of which only 13th failed
<ailo> So, I haven't yet installed the latest, which is from current, but it would be safe to assume, that it will work from me as well
<ScottL> yay!  that makes me feel much, much better
<ScottL> rock on, going out again, i'll be back in later this afternoon
<ScottL> after i start some test for xubuntu and a dock, i want to start setting up for testing kernels
<ailo> ScottL, Yeah, take a break. You deserve one
<ScottL> holstein, ailo : when you installed did you have a network icon on the top right?
<ScottL> of the panel?
<ailo> ScottL, Let me check. I know there was a problem with icons
<ailo> before..
<ailo> ScottL, I need to install on a PC to see about that. The icons are messed up on Virtualbox together with the theme. So, I can't really tell. How is that on your install?
 * ailo is burning a DVD now..
<scott-upstairs> ailo, it looked "normal" to me
<scott-upstairs> just as it normally does, i'll do a screenshot in a minute with imagebin
<scott-upstairs> http://imagebin.org/148576
<scott-upstairs> that's the same network icon that i've seen with ubuntu studio far as long as i can remember
<scott-upstairs> this is from a full dvd install
<ailo> scott-upstairs, It was pretty funny looking at that pic. It started loading, but then it reset. Anyway, I got a look at it, and looks normal to me too.
<ailo> scott-upstairs, Just installing myself now. hmmm...
<ailo> Got stuck at the part where the partitioner is supposed to kick in
<ailo> Think this has happened to me sometime before. Maybe on a Debian install
<ailo> BUT, the background is blue :)
<holstein> ScottL: that icon was bad
<holstein> and the panel was not right
<ailo> holstein, Virtualbox?
<holstein> ailo: i did one of each
<holstein> metal and Vbox
<ailo> holstein, And you had bad panel on metal too?
<holstein> yup
<ailo> What graphic card with that?
<holstein> ATI
<holstein> but, i didnt try for 3d at all
<ailo> Could you try installing drivers too see if that makes any difference
<ailo> On Virtualbox I think I get it everytime
<holstein> ailo: i'll have to try again
<holstein> all around
<holstein> its gone now
<ailo> And on VB there is a problem with drivers
<holstein> but, i have one more case left
<holstein> ailo: in the vbox one
<holstein> i tried loging out and back in a few times
<holstein> and the metal
<holstein> i just did it the one time
<holstein> could have just been a little glitch
<ailo> What happens is that the gtk stuff fails for some reason, and falls back on the basic theme
<ailo> Don't think that happens on Ubuntu no matter what
<ailo> Vanilla, that is
<ailo> The strange thing is that it only happens for the panel and the desktop
<ailo> My guess is that this is because of some Unity thing
<holstein> ailo: did you get iso's booting?
<holstein> and installing?
<ailo> I've managed to install on VB, using the 14th of April iso. 13th failed on both.
<ailo> So, now I'm installing the latest on metal
<holstein> ailo: i DL'd from that link 
<holstein> but the next day
<holstein> maybe i got different iso's?
<ailo> They do change, but I find it confusing when. I DL'd from the first link twice.
<ailo> And got the 13th and the 14th
<ailo> Now I DL'd from current
<ailo> Link is */daily/current/* instead of */daily/<date>/*
<ailo> The actual download link, that is
<ailo> Not the link where you go to get the iso
<ailo> holstein, This is the link I used now http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntustudio/daily/current/natty-alternate-i386.iso
<ailo> holstein, I'm installing now, so if I get this problem, I can deal with trying to find out what it is
<ailo> Actually, should be doable from Virtual Box too :/
<ailo> holstein, Mine looks normal.
<ailo> ScottL, The install extra drivers icon is missin, though
<ailo> (it's a white square with an x in it)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-04-17
<ailo> scott-upstairs, ScottL, I could look into the problem with the gtk theme problem tomorrow. I thought about hanging around att #ubuntu-desktop and perhaps #ubuntu-devel to see if someone could help me find out what causes it. If that's ok..
<ScottL> ailo, absolutely :)
 * holstein checking in on the back scroll...
<Kokito> howdy
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-04-09
<astraljava> Hmm... archive got frozen already, so I suppose it'll be harder to get anything in anymore. micahg, could you take a look at -meta, there was the mixer change revision that hasn't crept in yet? I fear the mute/unmute thing will enter as a SRU.
<micahg> astraljava: final freeze isn't until Thursday for images
<astraljava> micahg: Ok, just saw the /topic on #u-devel.
<micahg> archive is frozen, yes :)
<astraljava> I'm still on the fence whether to just use the patch Lionel included for Xubuntu, even though it doesn't fix all unmuting problems. But it seems I don't have time to enhance it in time anyway, so it's better than nothing, I suppose.
<scott-work> astraljava: micahg: do we have a plan to refresh the meta's at before Thursday?  would it even be required?
<scott-work> please remove the word 'at' in the previous sentence
<astraljava> scott-work: Yeah it's required for the mixer change.
<scott-work> okay, good to know, just wanted to make sure that micahg is onboard with this
<scott-work> if not, then we need to find an alternative
<astraljava> Well I haven't had his promise on the matter, so I don't know yet who'll do it.
<len_> scott-work, I was talking to a user yesterday on #ubuntustudio who needed help getting a2j working. Claimed that the seq option in jack didn't work.
<len_> Said he was using the 12.04 beta. seq works for me, so I am not sure what went wrong.
<scott-work> len_: is this the email you sent to the list yesterday or today?
<len_> yes
<len_> It seems for most uses it is not needed
<len_> but, for when it is, it is not obvious how.
<len_> scott-work I am thinking even though the use is low, it may be worth while making it start with jack by default.
<len_> Next cycle though.
<len_> check the irc log for our talk.
<scott-work> we might wait until they clear up jackdbus, there is an interesting email on jack-devel right now about it working well with qjackctl and jard
<scott-work> *jackd
<scott-work> but we can certainly look at it for next cycle
<len_> Ya jackdbus is a bigger problem
<len_> But it is not something I can do anything about... the jackd developers get to worry about that one :-)
<len_> scott-work, I think 12.04 is pretty good as it is. A great place to move forward from.
<scott-work> aye, i agree, we should all be proud of our involvement in this release :)
<len_> I am going to work on adding a record mode(s) to my workflow platform.
<len_> My plan is to run US 12.04 on both of my machines.
<astraljava> Agreed, it's a pretty solid release. Just unhappy about the mute/unmute issue, but it happens. I'll add the other patch tonight, so it works for some at least.
<micahg> astraljava: is it all ready to go ?  I am short on time this week, but I can try to fit it in
<ttoine> hi all
<ttoine> Just a question : I tried to install Unity on Ubuntu Studio, just to try
<ttoine> But I can't find it in the list at login : there is only Ubuntu Studio and Xfce...
<ttoine> any idea ?
<micahg> ttoine: did you just install unitá»·
<ttoine> micahg, yes
<ttoine> and unity 2D too
<ttoine> micahg, any idea to have unity in the list of DE ?
<micahg> it should be Ubuntu or Ubuntu 2D, not Unity
<scott-work> micahg: i would like to fix the clock plugin display tonight (about six hours hence)
<astraljava> micahg: Actually, yeah the -meta is done. I realized the other patch is for xfce4-volumed.
<scott-work> oh, i guess that really doesn't affect the meta though, does it :P
<ttoine> micahg, I can only choose between ubuntu studio or xfce 4, even after installing Unity and Unity-2D packages
<micahg> not sure
<micahg> maybe ask in #ubuntu+1 if yoÃºre on precise
<ttoine> yep ! here with a fresh Ubuntu Studio install, and from Unity in order to test how it works
<ttoine> Scott-work, just to tell you that gparted is still missing on the iso, and that I filled a bug against the ubuntustudio-lightdm-theme package
<micahg> ttoine: scott-work_: gparted missing is  seed issue, so, should be against ubuntustudio-met
<ttoine> micahg, in case you are interested, I documented a way to install unity on ubuntu studio
<scott-work_> ttoine: is the lightdm bug related to gparted missing?
<scott-work_> micahg: tonight when i update the -default-settings package i will also add gparted to the desktop seed
<micahg> scott-work_: no, it goes in the live seed
<scott-work_> oh yes, i would have missed that
<micahg> that would be similar to how where it's seeded elsewhere
<ttoine> scott-work_, not at all. this is two separate thing but as you are at work I was thinking that one line for two problems would be better
<ttoine> scott-work_ Just have a look at the bug report I did. lighdm theme can't remember the desktop choice of a user, and is not able to auto log in
<ttoine> maybe we should use the unity-greeter as a base and change the colors and themes
<scott-work_> ttoine: are you experiencing this after installing unity?
<scott-work_> however, i have to admit that i haven't changed the xsession or have auto login , so i haven't tested these functions actually
<ttoine> scott_work_ yes after installing unity
<ttoine> I solve the problem by uninstalling ubuntustudio-lightdm-theme and installing unity-greeter
<micahg> ttoine: well, unity-greeter would replace lightdm-gtk-greeter
<ttoine> micahg, yes, and it works great
<micahg> ttoine: well, you should be able to use whatever greeter you want for any of the DEs
<ttoine> scott_work_ at home the main workstation use the 40" flat tv as screen. Unity is better than xfce for this kind of use. And second point, I really would like to check that Unity can run on Ubuntu Studio without problem
<ttoine> micahg, yes, but every greeter should have the same behaviour, no ?
<micahg> ttoine: that depends on the behaviour
<ttoine> micahg, in that case, there  should be a checkbox "remember my choice as default session", like on good old gdm
<micahg> ttoine: that should be the default
<ttoine> but the current ubuntustudio-lightdm-theme doesn't have such a checkbox
<micahg> ttoine: no, it
<micahg> it's the default behaviour IIRC
<len-1204> Yes it has been for me.
<len-1204> The DE has to be on the list first though..
<micahg> yes, that's true, if Ubuntu isn't listed in anything except Unity Greeter, I would think that's a bug (which may or may not be fixable for precise)
<ttoine> micahg, ubuntu is listed if you add the package "gnome-session"
<ttoine> the problem is that with ubuntustudio-lightdm-theme, there is no way to set another default desktop than ubuntustudio
<micahg> ttoine: hmm, seems like another bug :)
<ttoine> micahg, anytime you restart, any time the default is ubuntu studio
<ttoine> micahg, perhaps you should start from the unity-greeter and just change the theme...
<ttoine> For what I see on forums, this bug happend on Xubuntu too
<micahg> so, it might be an issue with the gtk greeter or a config option, I am not sure, mr_pouit would be better to speak to about this
<ttoine> micahg, sometimes I don't understand developpers... instead of rewriting everything, why not use something working welll and just change what you just really need ???
<ttoine> scott-work_, do you have some news from the bug about the menu icon ?
<astraljava> bah... I'm not too positive about the unmute resolution. I can't get xfconf to return anything pulse-related by default on two machines precise freshly installed. If there's no easy way to change it so that it finds pulse out-of-the-box, we're stuck with what we have right now.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-04-10
<astraljava> I asked on #xfce-dev, in hopes that Jannis will see it and have some ideas (he's co-author for volumed), but I dunno. I'll sleep on it now, maybe I figure something out in my sleep. :)
<ScottL> micahg, i've updated the following packages:
<ScottL> 1. precise seeds
<ScottL> 2. ubuntustudio-default-settings
<ScottL> 3. ubuntustudio-lightdm-theme
<ScottL>  
<ScottL> actaully #3 was updated a month ago or so but was never uploaded to the repos
<ScottL> (and i apologize because i ran two updates together in my bzr commit for -defautl-settings)
<ScottL> they aren't vast or pervasive, but it was still two updates in a single bzr commit
<ScottL> ping me if needed, i'll be around the house doing other stuff
<ScottL> (and quietly brewing over the crap going on at the office)
<frewsxcv> is cory kantros still part of the team?
<ScottL> frewsxcv, not really
<ScottL> he did some work during the last cycle but has not been part of this cycle at all
<ScottL> there were a few cycles previously where he was completely inactive as well
<frewsxcv> is this project still alive?
<frewsxcv> rather, how is this cycle going?
<ScottL> frewsxcv, absolutely!
 * frewsxcv was on the team years ago
<ScottL> we've had some major improvements this cycle
<frewsxcv> just checking in out of curiosity
<ScottL> * finished transition to xfce
<ScottL> * added lowlatency kernel to repos
<ScottL> * defaulted to lowlatency kernel
<frewsxcv> nicce
<ScottL> * image is now live dvd
<ScottL> * other stuff i can't think of right now :P
<frewsxcv> about time that lowlatency got in
<frewsxcv> any changes in software?
<frewsxcv> *media software
<ScottL> which media software, frewsxcv ?
<ScottL> for audio? or graphics, video?  that media?
<ScottL> some changes in those areas
<astraljava> frewsxcv: LTNC! Come on board, we've missed ya. :)
<ttoine> hi
<astraljava> Hi ttoine!
<ttoine> astraljava, how are you today ?
<astraljava> Guys, the patch Lionel did really works, but I was just too dumb to see it. Had to do with xfconf values, when they were already set, no change was happening. But the patch works when the user boots up the first time, which can also be emulated by clearing the xfconf values for xfce4-mixer.
<astraljava> I'm updating the bug #972781 now with a debdiff, should be there in a few minutes.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 972781 in xfce4-volumed "Prefer PulseAudio when XF86AudioMute is used for ubuntustudio session" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/972781
<astraljava> ttoine: I'm good, but anxiously waiting for new regarding an apartment. Thanks, and how are you? How was Easter?
<ttoine> It was great for my young son : tons of chocolates animals, bells, eggs, etc... ;-)
<ttoine> And you ?
<astraljava> I was packing, watching a loooot of hockey, and doing some testing/debugging/developing. It was alright. Oh and I did go out a lot, biking mostly. Great weather, for northern Finland at least. :)
<astraljava> micahg: TheMuso: If you have time, please check bug #972781 and advise further on how to get it uploaded. Not a FFe, this is a usability bug IMHO.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 972781 in xfce4-volumed "Prefer PulseAudio when XF86AudioMute is used for ubuntustudio session" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/972781
<ttoine> astraljava, good time so too !
<ttoine> astraljava, I checked the state of the little visual bug of the menu icon in thet top panel, and it seems that it is not moving at all... can you tell me what to do to have it available in the updates ?
<astraljava> ttoine: I remember there's a bug for that, do you have the number for it available?
<ttoine> ah, wait a second. You teached me how to do the debdiff with that bug, it #/967160
<ttoine> astraljava, I just changed it to fix comitted, because I attached the debdiff
<astraljava> bug #967160
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 967160 in ubuntustudio-default-settings (Ubuntu) "The logo background is not transparent" [Undecided,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/967160
<astraljava> ttoine: Ok, it looks good. You can increment the version numbers for project-specific packages, as they are all ubuntu, so no need for ubuntu1 in there. :) micahg, could you include that patch for default-settings when you're doing the upload? Thanks!
<ttoine> astraljava, I don't understand very well the increment point...
<astraljava> ttoine: Normally the version marks the version in debian (our upstream). When there are ubuntu-specific changes, they are marked with this postfix, for instance I added the Studio-specific fix for xfce4-volumed, it's version is now 0.1.13-2ubuntu2, meaning a second ubuntu-specific change for that debian version.
<astraljava> ttoine: But for ubuntustudio- packages, there's no need for ubuntuX postfixes, as these are all ubuntu packages anyway. So in this case, the version should just be incremented marking it 0.33 for -default-settings.
<astraljava> But it doesn't matter now, as there were other changes to that package by Scott, so this patch can be merged without that part of changelog, just including your name and explanation for the patch.
<astraljava> Just for future reference, that's all. Thanks for providing the patch in the first place! :)
<ttoine> astraljava, actually, I just let the postfixe. It was generated when doing the different steps for creating the debdiff
<astraljava> ttoine: Yeah, I know. It's easy to not notice, dch creates it automatically.
<ttoine> but I can just rename the debdiff filename ?
<astraljava> ttoine: But it's something that a packager has to look for.
<astraljava> ttoine: Yes, the name is not relevant.
<ttoine> ok, now I know. thanks again... sometimes I feel a bit "not enough skilled" to be a "developper"
<astraljava> ...but it's good to keep it as *.debdiff, so it's immediately noticeable upon first look.
<ttoine> ah of course
<ttoine> and then, I hope that the bug with the lighdm can be solved
<astraljava> ttoine: These things just have to be learnt, not very intuitive. :) I do not think I'm a ubuntu developer, I'm still relying too much on the people like Lionel, Micah, Luke etc.
<astraljava> ttoine: Yeah, it proved to be more difficult, but haven't followed since they dropped the initial fix.
<ttoine> astraljava, I can't understand why it was not based on the unity-greeter... It works well, so, I were the developper, I would have started from this package, and just changed color and background picture
<ttoine> I mean, instead of rewriting a new one
<astraljava> ttoine: I don't know either, yet, but I joined the group for it, so that I can keep better track on its progress and participate in the development from Studio's POV.
<ttoine> yes. it is very strange that it is not possible to "save" the default desktop we want to use
<ScottL> ttoine, i wanted to tell you that i did the menu icon fix a little different
<ttoine> ScottL, yes ?
<ScottL> ttoine, the two .png images were created with the .svg that you fixed which therefore had the non-fully-transparent transparency
<ScottL> so i updated them all but gave you credit in the changelog for it
<ttoine> ScottL, thank you. So I did a mistake too at the export ??
<ScottL> i didn't see the other two images in the debdiff, did i make a mistake in that?
<ScottL> ttoine, oh, and thank you for reminding me about this bug :P  i had really meant to have fixed this (again) and had forgotten
 * ScottL is getting kids ready for school/day care
<ttoine> ScottL, in the debdiff, there should be the svg and the 2 png...
<ttoine> ScottL, I was testing the ubuntu themes (radiance and ambiance) in ubuntu studio xfce and with radiance, wich is bright, It was very anoying
<ttoine> By the way, radiance is beautiful in Ubuntu Studio
<astraljava> ScottL: You're probably not there anymore, but worth a shot. I can't set the team as bug supervisor nor security contact for LP project gcdmaster-gtk3, as I'm not an admin for this team. Could you either add me as one, or configure the project yourself. Up to you. :)
<astraljava> All: If you're interested in bringing gcdmaster back, please see mail: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-studio-devel/2012-April/003979.html
<ttoine> ScottL, mudita24 is still in the mediaplayer menu
<len_> astraljava, +1 on the CDMastering project.
<astraljava> micahg: Made an update to -default-settings, so please make sure when uploading that the revision 116 is with it. Thanks!
<scott-work> janne, good work on the pulse-mixer issue!  :)
<astraljava> Thanks, but Lionel did all the work actually.
<ScottL> astraljava, i'll look into the admin stuff, might just set you as admin if that will work
<ScottL> i forgot to remove the two mixers from the media playback menu
<ScottL> not sure if it's too late or not, might just wait until next cycle
<astraljava> ScottL: I haven't had news about the upload so far, so there _should_ still be time.
<ScottL> i'm very much looking forward to getting all the packages updated in the repos, the meta's rebuilt, and test our RC for this cycle
<ScottL> s/test/testing
<ScottL> it's been a bloody amazing cycle, IMO
<ScottL> astraljava, you and len_ have both been quite instrumental in the development of this cycle
<ScottL> and micahg has been incredible in helping us with the repos, the metas, and the incidental "arcane" stuff like maintenance scripts and sundry :)
<astraljava> Thanks, but I think the biggest factor has been the more 'official' leadership and the very easily approachable uploading done by Luke and Micah.
<astraljava> So credit to where it's due, to you and to the real devs. :)
<ScottL> oh, very good point about TheMuso helping with the kernel issue
<ScottL> hehe, thank you :)  but we would not have accomplished as much without you as well
<astraljava> But I admit Len has been a tremendous contributor, there'd have been many, many things missing/flawed unless for his tireless testing and elaborate discussions.
<ScottL> i don't know if i made much progress to getting my repo access privileges, but a lot was certainly accomplished and i learned quite a bit
<ScottL> ttoine, in his short time hanging around this cycle, has been very helpful as well
<ScottL> i'll try to get the menu thing fixed tonight, but my evening schedule is pretty full already at the house
<ScottL> speaking of which, i need to attend to a few matters with the family :)
<ScottL> be back in a bit
<frewsxcv> astraljava: heh, i could rejoined. it looks like the website hasn't been touched since i was in 8th grade
<frewsxcv> though i would prefer to do actual development
<astraljava> frewsxcv: There's going to be a new site timed for release of precise.
<astraljava> frewsxcv: Yes, please! We have some ideas for the Q cycle.
<frewsxcv> astraljava: sweet, maybe i can work on it over the summer, when i'm not busy with school
<astraljava> Sounds super.
<frewsxcv> for the meantime, i'll just idle in here and follow along
<astraljava> frewsxcv: Just in time for champagne (in about a fortnight or so) :D
<frewsxcv> when is the 12.04 release anyways?
<astraljava> 26th
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-04-11
<len-1204> frewsxcv, welcome, what atsraljava was not saying is that he has a project waiting for you ;-)
<astraljava> len-1204: Yeah, I'll ease him slowly back in. :)
<astraljava> len-1204: We need to discuss about that one of these days anyhow, I'm not sure I've understood the other problem correctly.
<len-1204> astraljava, I am actually thinking of a few bits of code we could use...
<len-1204> Whihc problem is that?
<len-1204> s/Whihc/Which/
<astraljava> len-1204: The second problem with gcdmaster, not the gtk3 porting.
<len-1204> Ok, I didn't know there was a second problem.
<astraljava> I've probably just read the emails too quickly, and will most likely 'get it' when I read them with thought, but since you're here now...
<astraljava> Hmm... let me check the correspondence again.
<len-1204> I was saying that both the gnome bits and the gtk2 bits need changing.
<astraljava> "So this is mostly GUI stuff? So two porting issues, G2 and gtk2 to gtk3."
<len-1204> I got the idea the reason it was being dropped was because the gnome2 libs were going away.
<astraljava> Oh ok, yeah I haven't really looked that into why it was dropped.
<len-1204> So it is one problem, but there are the two parts, change gnome2 to gtk3 and I think there is gtk2 stuff as well.
<len-1204> I think gtk2 is still there for now, but if changes are to be made better to look to the future.
<astraljava> For sure. Yeah sadly I can't find very technical info regarding the dropping, other than 'GNOME 2 libs going away'. Oh well, we'll find out when we start hacking. :)
 * astraljava finds it amusing to pour coffee into a black mug in poor lighting
<len-1204> astraljava, is there another browser besides firefox and chrome?
<astraljava> len-1204: What do you mean? There are plenty.
<len-1204> I just put opera in, but I would like to find something more open. Firefox still has a bug converting time to system format.
<len-1204> Yeah, I want something firefox like... other than firefgox that doesn't dragn in
<len-1204> lots of libs
<astraljava> Oh ok. Well, there's midori, whatever they call the KDE4 browser these days, and many other webkit-based ones.
<len-1204> I was trying to stay away from pulling the kde libs.
<len-1204> Is there a debian or gnome project?
<astraljava> epiphany and midori might work for you.
<len-1204> I'll try thanks.
<astraljava> What's the firefox time issue?
<len-1204> It is a javascript thing that takes server time and changes it to my local time in system format. It gets the date, month and year mixed up.
<len-1204> So every message in january is dec 1.
<len-1204> It works fine in other browsers...
<astraljava> gah...
<astraljava> Is that why the threading breaks on your messages?
<len-1204> I put a bug in but have heard nothing back
<len-1204> I have finger trouble ;-)
<len-1204> I sometimes follow the forums at permies.com
<astraljava> :) No I mean your responses to a thread don't follow the headers, and appear as new.
<len-1204> here? or in email?
<astraljava> Email. :) Hahah! Just realized the source of confusion and the rather hilarious response. :D
<astraljava> What do you use for emailing? A webmail site?
<astraljava> Doesn't really matter, but it helps people sorting mail by threads, to follow the conversation.
<len-1204> Email would be my client which is squirrel mail.
<astraljava> Ok. squirrel doesn't seem to respect headers. Bad rodent.
<len-1204> It may be the way I have it set up. The subject may be the wrong format
<len-1204> It is our private webmail thing. It has been a great help for transfering files when away from home.
<astraljava> Unlikely, it looks correct in mutt, but there are no headers left on your messages regarding the thread.
<len-1204> Ah..
<astraljava> Yeah like I said, it's no biggie, just was wondering about it.
<astraljava> ...though now I just noticed that I've seem to delete the rest of the thread, apart from your latest response.
<len-1204> I was deleting things for a while... now I have 28 pages of messages...
<astraljava> Heheh. :) Yeah it's good to do a little spring cleaning every once in a while. :)
<astraljava> I did the same on my hobby-related email and on the other-personal-things email. Now I'm down to ~5000 emails combined.
<len-1204> After the release I will delete most of it. I guess it is logged somewhere anyway.
<astraljava> Oh for sure. lists.ubuntu.com offers you archives of all the mailing lists.
<len-1204> how come epiphany is a game?
<astraljava> Heheh. :) Yeah sorry, the package is epiphany-browser. :) Forgot about it.
<len-1204> Ok... try again ;-)
<len-1204> I seem to have both installed... just have the game in the menu though.
<len-1204> astraljava, both have the same *.desktop file name... so only one can be on the system at the same time if you want both on the menu.
<astraljava> Hahah, smells like a bug report.
<frewsxcv> astraljava: who's project lead nowadays
<astraljava> Scott Lavender, aka ScottL or scott-work or scott-upstairs, depending on which alter-ego is present at any given time-of-day.
<astraljava> TheMuso: Thanks for yet another upload of lowlatency! Why is the version numbering differing from the mainline, though? Not that it matters, just want to understand.
<TheMuso> astraljava: Ok, so 3.2.0 should be self-explanetory. The 23, is the aBI number, which has to remain in line with the mainline kernel ABI number, for head sync. The number after that is the number of uploads of that 3.2.0 kernel. Alessio's version was already bumped a few, so I just left off from his packaging.
<astraljava> Ok. Yeah wondered about the .31 vs. .36 but makes sense. Thanks again!
<micahg> TheMuso: have you been in touch with alessio, he seemed to think there was some issue between the two of you
<micahg> TheMuso: please see http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2012/03/30/%23ubuntustudio-devel.html
<astraljava> ScottL: I better give you a heads-up already. It looks as if I won't have my own apartment yet by the time precise gets released, so I most likely won't be able to help ISO testing the candidates.
<astraljava> ScottL: I could write to both mailing lists about this, as there's the special occasion this being an LTS release and all that. I'll wear my QA hat on while typing. :D
<scott-work> astraljava: i saw your email, thank you very much, hopefully this will pull some people into testing
<scott-work> plus we might consider just noting what things we are testing and started to get information about what we want to test
<astraljava> scott-work: I've been meaning to write testcases more geared towards our distribution, but time permitting, I'll see what I can do.
<scott-work> don't fret over it, it will get done, we just need to keep it in mind and get it done when appropriate :)
<scott-work> i think people have worried too much about what should be done and overcommit
<scott-work> my feelings are more toward the long view
<astraljava> Sure. :) Well, I don't know whether you have this expression in English, but loosely translated from finnish, "Hunger grows while eating."
<scott-work> i am hoping that user documentation, testing procedures, lowlatency maintenance, and a few other key issues will be address in the p-cycle
<scott-work> aye
<scott-work> i'm not aware of an enlish equivalent, but i believe i can udnerstand the sentiment
<astraljava> You mean q, but yeah. Those should be addressed. I'm just itching to sink my claws into gcdmaster. :)
<scott-work> oh, yeah, q-cycle :P
<scott-work> good!  we certainly could use gcdmaster back
<scott-work> but i think len, or ailo, or holstein proved that it can be done with ardour, cd markers, and brasero too
<scott-work> but i know gcdmaster let's you make extensive manual changes as well
<frewsxcv> if you guys have iso's available for testing, i'm willing
<holstein> frewsxcv: its not even so much "you guys"
<holstein> they get built
<holstein> we dont really build them necessarily
<holstein> so, they are there... there was a nice thread on the email list that astraljava put out about where/how to test
<holstein> and we would greatly appreciate it frewsxcv :)
<astraljava> frewsxcv: If you're not on the mailing lists, http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com is the ISO tracker, dailies are being tested now. Images can be found at http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntustudio/dvd/current
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-04-12
<astraljava> Okay folks, the hopefully final kernel is in the archives, go test as soon as you possibly can.
<astraljava> Right, I'll take that back, sort of. It's yet in -proposed. If you could, please add that to your sources.list.
<len-1204> astraljava, the topic for #ubuntustudio says we do not have a live CD... we should maybe change that
<astraljava> len-1204: Yes well, I'm not sure any of the active devs have privileges on that channel. Let me see.
<len-1204> astraljava, downloading new kernel.
<astraljava> Yeah, don't have privileges there, yet. We're working on it together with the IRCC, but they require us getting some training first, so we're gonna have to ask someone change that for us by the time precise gets released. So far it still holds true, actually.
<len-1204> ok
<len-1204> Might do to add something that says people do look at the back logging... so just ask your question instead of asking is anyone there.
<len-1204> Anyway...reboot time.
<len-1204> astraljava, boots ok anyway, is there something I should be looking for?
<astraljava> len-1204: I'm not aware of any huge changes, but I'll read the changelog soon. Meanwhile, if you have any performance tests where you could catch any possible regressions, that'd be good.
<len-1204> 20:50:49.533 XRUN callback (1). But then I just rebooted.. there could be something just starting still
<len-1204> There was only one kernel listed on the boot screen. Right one though
<len-1204> Thats interesting: 20:58:29.541 XRUN callback (9).
<len-1204> 21:00:29.537 XRUN callback (11).
<len-1204> 21:02:29.534 XRUN callback (12).
<len-1204> 21:04:29.536 XRUN callback (14).
<len-1204> 21:06:29.535 XRUN callback (16).
<len-1204> All my xruns are at the same second about 1 minute apart.
<astraljava> len-1204: But there was the 'Previous linux versions entry', right?
<len-1204> not for the old kernel, but only the ones on the other disk... I'll look again in a min.
<astraljava> len-1204: I didn't see a list of the older kernels either, just a line underneath the latest saying 'Previous linux versions'. Don't know how grub2 operates, though, so no idea whether they were removed by accident, on purpose or what happened there.
<len-1204> The old one is still in /boot though.
<len-1204> I'll look again
<len-1204> astraljava, ok the old one is there.
<astraljava> len-1204: Right.
<astraljava> micahg: How's your schedule for the next 14 hours? Is there a chance you could upload our packages, or should I ask around on -motu?
<micahg> haha
<micahg> let me see if I can do teh stuff in the branches
<astraljava> Thanks!
<micahg> astraljava: 1.  changelog should be UNRELEASED until tag for upload, 2.  there should only be 1 UNRELEASED changelog entry at a time :) (which there actually is in this case, but 2 with precise)
<micahg> -default-settings looks sane enough, will collapse the changelogs and upload
<astraljava> micahg: Ok, a HUGE (like '              ' huge) thanks!
 * micahg wonders why there is an ubuntustudio-logo.png in the branch if there's an svg
<micahg> ScottL: one change per commit please :) (it's easy enough to tell them apart this time)
<micahg> also, there's no svg for the ubuntustudio-logo-menu.png menu file
<astraljava> Hmm... not desirable. len-1204, have you worked with those? Do you have the files in question?
<micahg> astraljava: do you want me to hold off on uploading?
<astraljava> micahg: If you could for a little while until I find out whether there's anything to be done about that.
<micahg> astraljava: ok, I just pushed up r117 with the collapsed changelog
<astraljava> Thanks!
<len-1204> I don't know that I can add anything to that... besides svgs being harder (for me) to work with ;-)
<len-1204> There have always been the 3 files
<astraljava> len-1204: Right, yeah I wasn't sure about who's worked on this.
<len-1204> Scott did the icons
<astraljava> I guess we'll just wait on ScottL to wake up.
<astraljava> Yep.
<micahg> astraljava: for the meta, just get anyone with upload rights to do it (MOTU or core-dev)
<astraljava> micahg: Alright, will do. Thanks for your help, and good luck with the rest of the tasks! :)
<micahg> I'm just waiting to hear back if you need a UIFe for the -lightdm-theme package
<astraljava> Oh that's what that is about. Right, I'll monitor -release for responses.
<micahg> also, right now ScottL is the maintainer, should that be Ubuntu Studio Developers?
<astraljava> Oh, it totally should. Want me to fix it?
<micahg> sure, I just pushed a fix up for it
<astraljava> Ok I see it.
<astraljava> micahg: What docs?! ;)
<astraljava> Pushed a fix for the maintainer, also added the VCS field.
<astraljava> len-1204: All I see in the changelog for this latest -lowlatency is it's rebased against the vanilla kernel, and a fixed invalid headers link. So no reason to test anything specifically. Just watch for any performance regressions.
<len-1204> astraljava, there is something that is happening every minute that is causing xruns. I don't think it is the kernel though.
<astraljava> len-1204: Try to monitor the logs, I have no idea what that could be.
<len-1204> It'll have to be tomorrow. I'll try both kernels just to be sure.
<micahg> astraljava: that should just be Vcs-Bzr (only needs XS when adding another thing like Debian)
<astraljava> micahg: Good catch, thanks!
<astraljava> Fixed.
<ailo> len_: You get that with both your audio devices?
<ailo> I mean, xruns every minute..
<micahg> astraljava: still not right :(, that's the Vcs-Browser URL, Vcs-Bzr for launchpad should point to code.launchpad.net which is branchable
<micahg> Vcs-Bzr is used for debcheckout so it needs to be branchable
<astraljava> micahg: Gah, I copied that from another branch. Thanks for pointing this out.
<astraljava> micahg: Is it ok to use the format -default-settings has? Ie. "Vcs-Bzr: lp:ubuntustudio-default-settings"
<micahg> astraljava: that's a good question, I don't know (I would think it's ok)
<micahg> maybe ask in -devel
<astraljava> Ok I will, thanks.
<ailo> The rtirq script raises rtprio for the whole irq where the sound device is located. At least that is how it seems to me. I disabled the script, and I still have rtprio at 50 for my audio devices, as well as a lot of other stuff
<ailo> I wonder why that is, and if it is normal
<ailo> Won't spend any time thinking about that right now, cause I don't really have the time for it
<ailo> I would like to determine how effective the script really is
<ailo> len_: Do you get any other messages besides that there was a xrun?
<ailo> Even though pulseaudio is pretty well behaved with jack, I wonder if it is smart to have it on while recording at low latencies
<ailo> It does sometimes produce xruns, like any other program
<astraljava> ailo: len_: There'll be an update to pulseaudio soon-ish, so might wanna have a go at that to see how it behaves.
<ailo> On pulseaudio, I don't think it causes any problems as long as it is inactive
<ailo> I think it happens mostly when PA loads whatever it is about to play
<ailo> That should probably not need to cause any xruns, since the PA/jack module is connected all the time
<ailo> Oh, I get xruns because of PA, even when PA is not using the jack module as its' output
<micahg> astraljava: do you know if ScottL tested the lightdm-theme
<astraljava> micahg: Not really, no. He's been busy with actual work, so haven't been around much.
<astraljava> micahg: But I can test it now.
<micahg> astraljava: do you want to test it quick?  do you need a binary?
<micahg> it's a quick local buld
<astraljava> micahg: I can build it here, right?
<micahg> so, just let me know if it works and I'll push the button to upload
<micahg> yeah
<astraljava> Ok, I'm on it.
<micahg> bzr bd -S
<micahg> err..
<micahg> 'bzr bd' should work in this case
<astraljava> Didn't have bzr-builddeb installed, I've always used pbuilder. :) But I'm testing on another machine, so takes a few minutes to set it up.
<astraljava> Oh, gotta look up what I'm checking out from it.
<astraljava> micahg: Yes, the change works.
<micahg> astraljava: if you don't use bzr-builddeb, you're likely to end up with a messy checkout
<micahg> bzr tags
<micahg> oops :)
<micahg> astraljava: uploaded
<astraljava> micahg: How so? The *.dsc is created outside of the source directory. pbuilder shouldn't touch that, right?
<astraljava> Thank you!
<micahg> astraljava: hmm, when creating a source package, if you run debuild -S in a checkout dir, you might end up with some files being changed on occasion
<astraljava> micahg: Damn, I didn't know that, and neither does the Recipes page mention that. Good to know.
<micahg> the clean rule might remove (files that probably shouldn't be in there in the first place) or regen translations (which shouldn't happen on clean either)
<astraljava> Right, I'll keep that in mind, then.
<micahg> astraljava: you can actually pass bzr bd commands to just build binaries for you in pbuilder straight away, take a look at the help entry
<astraljava> micahg: You mean the --builder option?
<micahg> astraljava: yes
<astraljava> micahg: Ok, that's very useful. Thanks!
<micahg> astraljava: do you want the release version of laditools for precise? https://launchpad.net/debian/+source/laditools/+changelog, the top 3 changelogss
<micahg> nevermind, it doesn't build
<astraljava> Ok. :)
 * micahg thinks it would be nice, but doesn't have time to fix
<astraljava> Ok, I will take a look.
<micahg> astraljava: the failure is the lack of the rsvg script that may or may not be reintroduced in precise
<micahg> astraljava: mlt builds if you want to file an FFe for it
<micahg> http://mltframework.blogspot.com/2012/02/version-078-released.html
<micahg> not sure how many of those features exist in the snapshot
<astraljava> micahg: Yeah it's not in precise. There's rsvg-convert, which apparently doesn't do the same thing? Haven't investigated yet.
<astraljava> Yeah it's not the same. Damn.
<astraljava> Needs an -o option.
<astraljava> micahg: Ugh... I'd need to learn to use kdenlive. :) I'll see what I can do.
<astraljava> Hmmm... kdenlive is not installed, even though ubuntustudio-video is.
<ScottL> micahg, astraljava : the only change (IIRC) for lightdm-theme was setting a different background (not that i didn't mess that up:P )
<ScottL> astraljava, i don't think kdenlive was currently in the video seed?  i thought we excluded it because of all the dependencies (which were very appreciable)
<ScottL> that said, i used kdenlive for my netcast i did and found it much better (IMO) that openshot
<ScottL> it have many, many features that are much easier to use than blender and offers many of the compositing features that blender does
<ScottL> although blender does still seem to have a few that no one else does, but could be used as a tool for a particular function, a subset of the larger workflow as it were
 * ScottL getting kinds ready and off and then going to work
<astraljava> ScottL: I don't know what I was thinking re: kdenlive.
<astraljava> ScottL: But please have a look at the .svg vs. .png thing.
<astraljava> I guess he was gone already :-/
<len_> astraljava, I don't think there should be an svg in the pixmaps dir anyway. The svg shold be in a sub of the icons dir. programs that use the pixmap dir may not be able to handle an svg.... good thing p(png) comes before s(svg)
<len_> scott-work, people are waiting to upload settings because they are confused about there being both an svg and a png logo.
<len_> gotta go...
<astraljava> len_: Ok, if you say so. I have no idea about this branding thing.
<scott-work> len_: astraljava: i think both .svg and .png have been there for a while and i *think* it might be based on what xubuntu has done
<scott-work> that last part might not be right
<scott-work> but both have been there for a while
<len_> It works as the way Scott has it and it would be better than where things are.
<scott-work> if necessary pull the .svg and we will stick it in the "resources" branch in launchpad for such assets (which i want to do more organizing with this coming cycle)
<astraljava> scott-work: The thing is, nobody seems to know what's necessary. I think it's your call now whether to ok or not-ok the upload of ubuntustudio-default-settings. micahg might not have time to do that, so we'll have to find someone from -devel or -motu or -release to do the upload.
 * astraljava is suddenly not on such a good mood anymore...
<astraljava> One box won't boot from recent ubuntu images, my studio session just halted with sound going in a loop, brasero whines about every burning session...
<astraljava> This is not the kind of hard freeze day I'd want to live through.
<astraljava> I'd have wanted to*
<scott-work> astraljava: do i need to make a comment in #ubuntu-release for the -default-settings upload?  somewhere else?
<scott-work> i would upload as is since it seemed to work earlier in the cycle and we can see about paring it down later
<scott-work> astraljava: ewwww, that's not good about your tests :(
<scott-work> maybe only part of some change have been implemented and is causing an unstable system (although i can't think of anything in particular that would cause it - at least from what we have been doing)
<astraljava> scott-work: If you would just ask on any of the channels that has core-devs or motus on it to do that, probably -release is best as they know you there. :)
<scott-work> will do
<scott-work> no response yet from -release and -motu
<scott-work> i wonder if it was micagh who was the primary concern
<astraljava> The freeze won't happen in 6 hours, so you've got time.
<astraljava> Unless I am mistaken about the time.
<astraljava> Usually it used to be 2100 UTC.
<astraljava> Not sure about this one, though.
<ttoine> hi
<scott-work> hi ttoine 
<micahg> ScottL: was referring to -default-settings about the 2 changes per commit thing
<micahg> scott-work: the question was did you want to ship an SVG for the -menu as well, it's not included
<micahg> scott-work: SVGs are good as they're the original source material, whereas a PNG without an SVG is harder to modify
<scott-work> micahg: i did not intend to exclude it
<micahg> scott-work: I was just wondering if there was one around to include
<micahg> and ideally, you'd want to generate the png at build time from the svg to make the source smaller (and insure the png is built from source)
<scott-work> micahg: i am confused, when you say "for the -menu", do you mean the -menu package?
<micahg> but we don't need to do that now
<micahg> scott-work: the -menu png didn't have an SVG whereas the other png in there did
<scott-work> as in ubuntustudio-menu source package?
<scott-work> oh, oh, i see
<scott-work> i used the same .svg to make both of the .png files
<micahg> scott-work: I'm confused, if it's the same image, why is it there twice?
<scott-work> primarily because i didn't know what was required and i was making sure i had an image for each of the previous instances in the -defaul-settings package (and probably for the xubuntu-default-settings as well)
 * micahg wonders if someone has time to a new package without it duplicated
<micahg> scott-work: is it just used in default-settings or elsewhere as well?
<scott-work> micahg: i cannot state explicitly, but i believe it is used only in default-settings package
<micahg> scott-work: well, it's probably safer to just leave it for precise and remove it starting in Q
<micahg> scott-work: but your call
<scott-work> micahg: can we be safe?  i will happily put in on my list for Q-cycle
 * scott-work is adding it curerntly to his evernote 'q development' note
<micahg> scott-work: yeah, let me build and upload default-settings then, thanks
<scott-work> micahg: i say it quite often, but please don't let it dimish the sentiment;  no, thank you!
<micahg> scott-work: I'll file a couple of bugs now as well
<scott-work> micahg: can you post the numbers so i can add them to my 'q development' note as well
<micahg> sure
<micahg> Bug #980059 and Bug #980060, I can target them to Q if you like
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 980059 in ubuntustudio-default-settings (Ubuntu) "ubuntustudio-logo.png should be generated from source at build time" [Wishlist,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/980059
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 980060 in ubuntustudio-default-settings (Ubuntu) "Duplication of ubuntustudio-logo.png and ubuntustudio-logo-menu.png is unnecessary" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/980060
<micahg> scott-work: default-settings uploaded
<scott-work> micahg: once again, thank you for you efforts, assistance, and knowledge, we certainly would not get things done otherwise
 * scott-work has also noted bug numbers in his note
<micahg> scott-work: did you want them targetted in launchpad?
<scott-work> looking now
<scott-work> micahg: no miletsone set
<scott-work> and i am unable to set it either
<micahg> scott-work: yes, I offered to target to Q for you if you so desire :)
<scott-work> oh, sorry, yes, please
<scott-work> i thought you asked if they _were_ already
<scott-work> okay, going to lunc
<scott-work> lunch
<len-live> default settings did not make it in time for todays ISO :-(
<astraljava> len-live: That's alright, at least it made it in time before the freeze, which is not what happened with the other fixes. :-/
<len-live> Ok astraljava, I am on my desktop and so far no xruns. Is the new kernel in the ISO?
<astraljava> len-live: I have absolutely no idea. Will check tomorrow, kinda burnt out right now.
<len-live> No problem, I would guess synaptic will tell me...
<len-live> No. still version 22.
<len-live> I will install and upgrade to new kernel.
<micahg> astraljava: I hope  you got all of your stuff in, I'll be back Sat night my time
<astraljava> micahg: infinity hasn't gotten back to me, so I doubt it. But oh well, such is life. Thanks for your awesome, rockin' work! :)
<astraljava> Have a good rest. :)
<micahg> astraljava: what didn't get uploaded?
<astraljava> I mentioned three bugs with debdiffs on them, he complained about the mixer change, and left it at that.
<astraljava> Not blaming him, mind you.
<astraljava> Just way, way, way too busy with other stuff. :)
<astraljava> Bugs are: bug #972749, bug #972781 and bug #973373
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 972749 in indicator-sound (Ubuntu) "Prefer pavucontrol over xfce4-mixer in ubuntustudio session" [Undecided,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/972749
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 972781 in xfce4-volumed "Prefer PulseAudio when XF86AudioMute is used for ubuntustudio session" [Undecided,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/972781
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 973373 in ubuntustudio-meta (Ubuntu) "package ubuntustudio-audio 0.90 failed to install/upgrade: subprocess new pre-installation script returned error exit status 1" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/973373
<micahg> meh, ok, let's talk sun morning
<micahg> the meta fix needs to get in
<astraljava> Right. If there's still something that can be done, I'm sure we can do it later as well. Thanks again, and try to relax and have some fun. Not saying ubuntu hacking isn't fun, but you know... :)
<micahg> I'm off for the end of Passover
 * astraljava looks that up
<astraljava> Oh okay. Well, what a bad timing, coinciding with the release schedule madness.
<astraljava> Too bad you missed most of it.
<micahg> yeah, I've got holidays around both releases, makes for fun scheduling
<astraljava> Do you ever get a time-off, like for realsies? :)
<micahg> yes, I rarely take it though
<astraljava> Hehe.
<astraljava> Hope you'll endure it, then. :)
<astraljava> We can't afford to lose you. :)
<len-live> astraljava, how much do you know about sound cards and interrupts?
<astraljava> len-live: Just the basics, why?
<len-live> I have two cards:  20:     975305          0   IO-APIC-fasteoi   snd_ice1712
<len-live>  21:     704245          0   IO-APIC-fasteoi   snd_ens1370
<len-live>  and the ice has no xruns at p64 but the ensoniq has lots at p128
<len-live> What I have read suggests putting the card on irq 9
<len-live> So I will mess around till I can get the ICE there... so what irq is second best?
<len-live> I wouldn't be using the ensoniq for sound, just for midi.
<astraljava> I could be wrong here, maybe they really matter, but I always thought that just as long as there's not many devices on the same irq, it's good.
<len-live> I wonder wht makes the ensoniq so bad.
<len-live> Oh well, I could never sync it to the ice anyway. I should probably tell pulse to ignore it though.
<len-live> Some irqs do get looked at before others though. I should see how the ensonic does with the ice turned off in pulse.
<len__> astraljava, turning the ice off in pulse made the xruns go away in jack for the ensoniq.
<astraljava> Weird. You should talk to David about this.
<len__> Makes sense actually. I think the ice talks with PA a lot more and the irq has higher priority (if  I remember my harrdware stuff right.) The ensoniq works ok in PA mode only with no jack.
<len__> It was just that I remember the ensoniq being rock solid when it was all I had... so I was surprised it was acting up.
<astraljava> len__: Yes ok, but he might be interested about those findings anyway.
<len__> installing the new kernel now
<len__> What is his userid?
<astraljava> I don't think he's on IRC that much. You can reach him at David Henningsson <david.henningsson@canonical.com>, though. If you send him an email, please CC the -devel list, and encourage him to do the same (not that he wouldn't). It'd be interesting talk.
 * astraljava notices it's two hours into the Friday the 13th already, so probably should step away from the computer now
<len__> Thats only bad if you keep slaves...
<astraljava> Heheh. :) Anyways, the games are starting, so I'm gonna go crash on the couch. Talk to you tomorrow.
<len__> Bye.
<len__> Hexter doesn't seem to start.
<len__> aeolus cashes on startup...
<len__> May be an interaction with pulse.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-04-13
<len__> Bug #980397 
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 980397 in aeolus (Ubuntu) "aeolus crashed with signal 7" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/980397
<len__> ScottL, we seem to be missing a package (dssi-host-jack) without which the hexter menu item will not work.
<len__> Bug #980465
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 980465 in ubuntustudio-meta (Ubuntu) "Hexter menu item won't run" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/980465
<len__> astraljava ^^^
<len__> ScottL, astraljava I can find hexter in the seeds but not dssi-host-jack. when I install this package hexter works.
<len__> It should be in audio plugins or audio common?
<len__> Or generation.
<holstein> who can pull the trigger on the website?
<holstein> is that still happening?
<len__> holstein, I think all the people are worn out and sleeping...
<ailo> len_: I've added a bug report for hexter not having jack-dssi as a dependency, but the problem is whether or not you want hexter as a standalone or not
<ailo> As a standalone, you need the jack-dssi-host, but you can load it from any host, as a plugin
<ailo> Might be a good idea to have two packages. One named hexter-standalone (meta-package with dependencies for both hecter and jack-dssi-host)
<ailo> Needs to be adressed to the Debian Multimedia team
<astraljava> quadrispro: What's your thoughts on the bug #980465?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 980465 in ubuntustudio-meta (Ubuntu) "Hexter menu item won't run" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/980465
<quadrispro> astraljava, ? precise does have dssi-host-jack
<astraljava> quadrispro: But hexter won't run without it being installed, so the suggests should rather be depends.
<quadrispro> astraljava, mmmno, I don't agree 'cause hexter could be loaded in any DSSI host
<quadrispro> so it isn't a strict dependency
<astraljava> Ok, so it should be just in the seeds, then. Wonder if that makes still in as an important bug fix?
<quadrispro> IMHO, no, it isn't
<quadrispro> astraljava, although we could promote dssi-host-jack to Recommends, I cannot find a good reason to push users to install something of non-strictly necessary
<astraljava> Right, so in your opinion the bug is invalid, and should be handled with just instructing users to install a DSSI host of their choice?
<astraljava> quadrispro: But you don't think that should be even in the seeds?
<quadrispro> good point, putting it into the seed would not do harm
<astraljava> Yeah, that's what I meant that with the bug fix.
<quadrispro> agreed
<astraljava> Would you be willing to sponsor it if I made the fix right now?
<quadrispro> astraljava, yes, of course I would
<astraljava> quadrispro: I pushed a rev. 1320 of our seeds, could you have a look? I think we can work on that aforementioned bug, then?
<quadrispro> astraljava, would you provide me the URL?
<astraljava> quadrispro: https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntu-seeds/ubuntustudio.precise
<quadrispro> astraljava, ok good
<astraljava> quadrispro: You know how to work the seeds forward? Or should I ask from Colin or someone else?
<astraljava> quadrispro: And did I ever congratulate for joining The Big C? :)
<quadrispro> astraljava, it would be better if you ask'd Colin for that. The Big C? :-/ Did I miss something?
<astraljava> Canonical. :)
<quadrispro> astraljava, ?? where did you find that information?
<astraljava> Hmm... ok, I've misunderstood something totally, then.
<astraljava> Sorry about this.
<astraljava> Ok, I'll go pester Colin, see if he has any time for this.
<quadrispro> astraljava, no problem, it's curious to see people think I work at Canonical, 'cause your not the first one :D
<ttoine> hi
<quadrispro> but I actually don't :)
<quadrispro> astraljava, sure, ask Colin, I'm working on leveldb right now and then I'll have to leave to take the train :)
<astraljava> Right, yeah maybe it's just my recollection, but I seemed to think seeing your name in front of the C's domain.
<ttoine> ScottL, the transparency of the icon is fixed with the updates of this morning. thnaks.
<astraljava> Hi ttoine.
<quadrispro> astraljava, although I must admit I would like to work at "The Big C" I actually don't, so if you have a good offer for me, don't hesitate and let me know! I'm available! :D
<astraljava> quadrispro: It's the same with me, although you're much closer on landing such a position. So can't help you there, unless someone would ask me in which case I'd gladly recommend you. :)
<ttoine> astraljava, think to recommand yourself too ;-)
<quadrispro> astraljava, thanks! I would do the same for you :) 
<quadrispro> bye all!
<ttoine> astraljava, how is running the current work on Ubuntu Studio ? Is there a lot of stuff to do ?
<ttoine> May I help doing something else than trying and report bugs ?
<astraljava> len_: To answer your question, it was removed quite long ago, rev. 1246 (see changes with `bzr diff -c 1246`), so maybe we should ask ScottL first before including it again?
<astraljava> ScottL: Could you oversee our decision to add dssi-host-jack into the seeds? I noticed you've dropped it on rev. 1246, so if you have a good reason for it, then I'm not sure I should ask Colin to refresh our metas just yet.
<astraljava> ScottL: Although I'm probably out when you come online, so I've pushed a new revision 1320 to LP, if you think it's okay to re-add it, just please ask Colin or someone else to refresh the seeds. I should be back by release meeting, though.
<ttoine> astraljava, dssi is not very used since lv2
<astraljava> ttoine: Ahh... you probably missed the conversation. See bug #980465, hexter won't run without a dssi host.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 980465 in ubuntustudio-meta (Ubuntu) "Hexter menu item won't run" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/980465
<ttoine> astraljava, ok
<ScottL> len_, astraljava ttoine : dssi was removed because of something to do with multi-arch builds IIRC, i don't quite remember the specifics currently as i woke up <10 mins ago
<ScottL> i had a bit of conversations with colin about it, he probably would remember the specifics
<ScottL> i'll dig in my notes and email when i get to work, however
<scott-work> astraljava: i remember now, i believe it was that our 64bit images were not building because the build daemon wasn't picking up on dssi-vst due to it's multi-arch nature
<scott-work> i believe colin said something about dssi-vst probably shouldn't be shipped anyway (due to licensing i would imagine) and could be downloaded through the installer
<scott-work> and the short answer was to take it out of the seeds for the short term
<len_> scott-work, so dssi-host-jack was included by the vst package and we lost it when that went. So then dssi-host-jack which doesn't require wine should be included on it's own. I did not find an alternative way of using hexter... can someone tell me how (with what US ships)
<scott-work> len_: i'm not sure, to be honest
<len_> Maybe check if it can be installed on an amd64 machine.
<len_> It should be ok, as it was the wine stuff that was a problem.
<len_> Alternately remove hexter :-(    or tell hexter to include recommends.
<len_> Or remove Hexter from the menu.
<ttoine> scott-work, if dssi-host-jack and dssi-utils are installed, hexter works
<ttoine> it is possible to install the two packages without installing the dssi-vst package
<scott-work> ttoine: good points
<scott-work> i'm not sure what can be done before release, but obviously we should explore the available options
<ttoine> is it too late to include dssi-host-jack and dssi-utils in Precise ?
<ttoine> scott-work, ?
<len_> scott-work, having a menu item that doesn't work is bad. I should probably put a bug against hexter as well. It should not include the desktop file unless dssi-host-jack is a depend instead of a recommend.
<ttoine> len_, this could be solved by restoring the dssi-host-jack in the dependencies
<ttoine> this will not install dssi-vst
<ttoine> so it is ok
<ttoine> len_, or maybe there is a problem with dssi-host-jack ??
<len_> From the above conversation, it sounds like there is a willingness to add it now. It would go in the seeds.
<scott-work> len_: ttoine: i believe we had dssi-vst in the seeds previously, we can try replacing it with dssi-host-jack
<scott-work> i don't know if it will work as i don't know which dependencies are required
<ttoine> what do you mean by seeds ?
<len_> ttoine, there are a lot of packages that we ship that are not explicitly included. We have them because of depends but when we remove some other package they disappear. We really should go though our depends and decide what to add to seeds.
<len_> scott-work, when I install dssi-host-jack on fresh 12.0b it brings nothing else with it.
<scott-work> len_:  and that makes hexter work?
<len_> yup.
<len_> I would suggest someone with an amd64 try it too.
<scott-work> len_: i can do that tonight when i am home
<len_> scott-work, next cycle, I think we should try to go through depends and see what things we rely on that are brought in as depends. this seems to bite us too offten
<len_> I off to work.
<ttoine> len_, scott-work I confirm that hexter work with just dssi-host-jack
<ttoine> wait 2minutes and I check on amd64
<ttoine> scott-work, len_ I confirm, hexter works on amd64 when dssi-host-jack is installed
<scott-work> len_: ttoine: this being said, the same reason dssi-vsst was not able to be included in the image (i.e. the build daemon not being able to find or include it in the 64 bit image due to multi-arch nature) might also preclude us from including dssi-host-jack as well
<scott-work> it is built from the same source
<ttoine> ok
<ttoine> scott-work, this is a problem even if dssi-jack-host is available in the ubuntu repository ?
<scott-work> ttoine: let me back up a bit and explain image building via ubuntu
<scott-work> we don't need to list _every_ single package to be included, we create a list of just the packages we want
<scott-work> these are called seeds
<ttoine> ok
<scott-work> we'll use ardour as an example
<scott-work> so our seed would include ardour but not jack at this point
<scott-work> but ardour depends on jack
<scott-work> so the process knows as germinate or germination is where the build process reads all the necessary dependencies and creates a new list of everything that needs to be included
<ttoine> ok
<scott-work> i'm kinda unsure what exactly happens then, but i think it makes a chroot then starts making an FS from which is somehow creates the image, again i'm fairly ignorant about this
<scott-work> in this current case, we have specified dssi-vst, the build process looks for it and i believe tries to isntall it in the chroot FS has trouble and fails
<scott-work> this doesn't mean it isn't in the repos, you know that it is
<ttoine> ok
<scott-work> i believe it is the build process that is failing
<scott-work> well, failing to find and isntall the application
<scott-work> apparently there is some sort of cross-platfrom crawler or something that is supposed to look for 32bit packages if they are mult-arch, it is probably this part that is not as robust as needed
<ttoine> and instead to put dssi-host-jack in the seeds, is it possible to change hexter package so it is a dependency ?
<scott-work> it would be possible, but i don't know how viable it is at this point in the cycle
<ttoine> it may then be impossible to include hexter if the builder fail to add its dependencies
<ttoine> scott-work, mudita is still in the mediaplayer menu...
<scott-work> yes, i know about the mediaplayer menu, those changes got overlooked
<scott-work> so much going on
<scott-work> this is cool looking, and we should have the installer/checkbox dialogue in the next cycle thanks to astraljava :  http://irc.jonathancarter.org/files/temp/installer-tickmarks.png
<scott-work> we *won't* have unity of course
<scott-work> :P
<astraljava> scott-work: No, see backlog discussion with quadrispro, it won't be changed as a dependency as there are a plethora of other dssi hosts available.
<astraljava> scott-work: What was removed was dssi-vst, but this is a different thing. We're talking dssi-host-jack here.
<astraljava> That was removed by you in an earlier revision, and no arguments were given other than "restructured audio seeds", so I don't know why.
<astraljava> +exactly.
<scott-work> eh, "restructed audio seeds" probably deals with some other issues and i made several changes in the seeds
<scott-work> this is what micah talks about :P
<astraljava> Yeah. :) But that is the revision when dssi-host-jack was removed.
<scott-work> removing dssi-vst per Bug#893351
<scott-work> i'm looking in ubuntustudio.precise rev. 1278
<scott-work> bug #893351
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 893351 in ubuntustudio-meta (Ubuntu) "remove dssi-vst from audio-plugins seed" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/893351
<scott-work> i don't remember if i filed that or colin did
<scott-work> wow, i did file it and put a lot of documentaiton there,  that is pleasently surprising   1278
<scott-work> s/1278/ :)
<astraljava> scott-work: Yes, but still, hexter wants the other package. It doesn't care about that.
<scott-work> right, agreed
<scott-work> my worry is that since these are all built from the same source, i wonder if the same problem will occur
<astraljava> So, do you agree on the change I made on the seeds, and can you give it green light on one of the main channels release-wise?
<astraljava> Err... hmm.
<astraljava> But it's there in the archives.
<scott-work> so is dssi-vst, no?
<astraljava> Yeah.
<scott-work> "ia32-libs is being transitioned to depend on appropriate multiarch libraries (avoiding the giant maintenance headache of ia32-libs is a major goal of the multiarch project for 12.04); but germinate can't traverse multiarch dependency chains, so it doesn't know that it needs to include ia32-libs-multiarch:i386 (which ia32-libs:amd64 depends on) and all the i386 libraries that ia32-libs-multiarch in turn depends on."
<scott-work> colins says^^^
<scott-work> btw, i'm not saying we don't try it, i'm just pointing out that it may not work
<scott-work> how about this,
<scott-work> we change the seeds today (already done and i agree with them btw)...
<astraljava> There's a newer wine there, let me see if it still has problems with ia32-libs.
<scott-work> see if the image builds tomorrow without updating the meta
<scott-work> it will probably pull the new packag in anyways without the meta being updated apparently
<scott-work> if we get an email form natsuku-cdimage saying it failed we have a good idea why :P
<scott-work> if not, we are probably safe to rebuild everything
<astraljava> Huh? Haven't they usually needed some sort of 'refresh' (forget if that was the actual term) until they appeared on the images?
 * astraljava is totally exhausted and tired of this cycle and wants a fresh start
<astraljava> Yes, this is excellent. build-deps for dssi remove about everything from our -audio related meta-packages.
<astraljava> You know, it's a good thing I'm going to be separated from this machine for about two weeks.
<scott-work> hehe, i understand about this cycle
<scott-work> the last two weeks have been like that for me, i'm starting to come back though, but i'm still finding it hard to care about things we've already worked on i admit
<scott-work> astraljava: but i'm good with the changes, feel free to poke someone in main channels release-wise
 * scott-work is going to lunch
<astraljava> scott-work: dssi source package builds fine on my machine, arch amd64. I don't know why apt-cache only shows them as i386, so I will not poke anyone, and if the seeds are refreshed automagically and our builds fail because of that, I'll remove it tomorrow.
<astraljava> scott-work: Ahh... "...but germinate can't traverse multiarch dependency chains...", but apparently debuild can.
<astraljava> Ok. Tough luck. Users need to install it manually, as before.
<astraljava> Ahh... I see. Some build-dep package for dssi depends on jackd1, so that's why most of our other audio packages were removed.
<astraljava> I'll revert the seeds back to normal, this still doesn't look safe.
<astraljava> scott-work: I played it safe, and pushed rev. 1321 which reverts the inclusion of dssi-host-jack. We don't need additional head-ache this late into the cycle. Thanks for going through this with me.
<astraljava> scott-work: Also, from this moment on, I'm going to be very sparsely online. This time use my gmail address for emails regarding any critical issues, that's what I keep track of the easiest. Will make an effort of checking the bugmail address as well.
<scott-work> astraljava: akc'd
<scott-work> that's disappointing about dssi though, it seems like we may have to remove hexter then :/
<astraljava> scott-work: Nope, just instruct the users to install a dssi host.
<len_> scott-work, astraljava, read all that stuff and understand. It seems to me the real solution is to move hexter to LV2. However, the author doesn't seem to be moving in that direction. Someone is porting it to vst though :/
<len_> Hmm, dssi-host-jack, used to have two versions (i386 and amd64) in ubuntu 11.04, see https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/natty/+package/dssi-host-jack
<len_> its in oneiric too.
<len_> http://packages.ubuntu.com/precise/dssi-host-jack
<len_> this one says both archs should be available now.
<len_> ScottL ^^^  I also notice that developers are still starting new projects with dssi rather than lv2 even when they have no experience with either and just look at what needs to be done to use either. The transition to lv2 for synth modules is really slow and maybe for some people in reverse.
<len_> Something to look into next cycle for sure.
<astraljava> len_: You're right, there's amd64 version of dssi-host-jack, I seem to have missed that and only recalled seeing i386 only for dssi-vst.
<astraljava> I could ask from Colin, but again, it's so late into the cycle that I don't wanna make changes lightly anymore.
<len_> astraljava, I'm not worried about getting any more into 12.04. Almost all of my thoughts are 12.10 or beyond. The record mode thing interests me... I think on any good audio machine it is not needed, but things like my netbook that are not made for sound could use it and may make a good portable platform for some uses with such a feature.
<astraljava> The more I read about the hexter problem, the more I start to think including dssi-host-jack won't cause any problems. Let me ask around for this once more.
<astraljava> len_: Yeah, I'm really tired of this cycle, too. There's a million things I wanna do better on the next one, and I just can't seem to find energy for fighting the windmills on this one any longer. :)
<astraljava> ScottL: len_: See -devel backlog, dssi-host-jack goes back in. :) Need to test it tomorrow, though, or whenever it swims to the images the next time.
<ScottL> astraljava, sweet!  i hope this works
<astraljava> ScottL: len_: holstein: whoever has time and interest; there are a few needs-packaging bugs filed against Ubuntu in general, but I think we're the ones getting them in. I responded to the first one, but don't have time to go through the rest of them.
<astraljava> Low-hanging karma points available. :)
 * knome doesn't mind, got 4Ã astraljava's karma
<knome> ;)
<astraljava> But you're not included in the above list, apparently, so why is this relevant in the first place? *grin*
<knome> you didn't point the karma comment to anybody in particular
<knome> pay attention!
<astraljava> Bah! /me storms out
<knome> ;)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-04-14
<astraljava> Alright, Colin confirmed the upload of -meta is done, so Saturday's images should have dssi-host-jack on them. Let's double-check ASAP.
<ScottL> outstanding, thank you astraljava 
<astraljava> dssi-host-jack comes with a dist-upgrade, now, so there should be no reason why it wouldn't be found on the images.
<astraljava> But oh how I love it that the -meta version number is 0.99, someone gotta find something to fix so that we can release a 1.00 version with this finest LTS release thus far. *grin*
<len> Bug #981698
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 981698 in phasex (Ubuntu) "phasex crashed with signal 7 in pa_shm_create_rw()" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/981698
<len> Bug #981704 
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 981704 in aeolus (Ubuntu) "aeolus crashed with signal 7 in pa_shm_create_rw()" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/981704
<len> ScottL, astraljava Two of our sound generators crash on startup.
<len> seem to crash PA sometimes while they are at it.
<len> How do I get pulse to NOT respawn?
<len> Got it.
<len> Ok, it doesn't make any difference if pulse is running or not.
<len> On the upside Hexter works...
<len> xfce4-mixer crashes when pulse is not running ;-)  (BTW it is still what comes up when selecting "sound settings" from the tray icon.
<len> pavcontrol no longer seems to restart pulse...
<len> top
<len> Oops, when do we get focus follows mind or eyes or something...
 * knome wants "focus follows something" too
<len> ;-)
 * astraljava would appreciate "focus follows it's own intuition"
<astraljava> len: Oh well, if anyone has time to work on those crashes, feel free. I won't have time until a bit over two weeks from now. Unless I nail down MacBook Pro quickly and have some virtualization going rather soon-ish. But I'm expecting to have those fixed as SRUs.
<len> I think it is a mix of new pulse libs and apps built against the old ones
<len> Beyond my grasp though... I have flagged one of them as affecting pulse too. So maybe it will get a few looks.
<len> astraljava, both 1386 and AMD64 ISOs have built today...
<len> Playing with qtractor, I can record a midi sequence and play it via the standalone hexter. But I can't load get any sound out of hexter if it is loaded directly in qtractor as a module... I guess I need to do some reading.
<len> Xchat no longer seems to put itself in the tray.
<len> Reboot fixed it.
<len> Ok, qtractor works... figured out the hexter as a module thing.
<len> Audio recording with qtractor works too. Had fun figuring out my wiring externally.
<len> mudita24 works as it should. It would be really nice if there was an _easy_ way to turn off pulseaudio.
<len> PA is using 10% or more CPU all the time. Output devices are turned off, the connections in the jack patch bay are disconnected... 
<len> Two hours, some with midi and audio activity, no xruns. But I have had PA as low activity as I could while still running.
<astraljava> I'm a little annoyed with it's CPU hogging. But I have no idea whether there's anything to be done about it.
<len> astraljava... an on/off switch would be nice. Still at 4hours and 2 xruns (right after starting guitarix) Its doing ok.
<len> I am thinking a record mode makes more and more sense.
<len> zynjacku is in effects menu but should be in the sound Generators menu
<len> Add that to your list ScottL
<len> I can't test all the mixers as many are hardware specific.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-04-15
<len> The xfce-mixer is going to be a problem down the road (maybe sooner). We have no GUI mixer that can run when PA is not running for most cards.
<len> qashmixer might work... There is not much out there.
<len> Oops qasmixer is the right name.
<len> Hmm, I don't know why xfce-mix quit on me before when pulse was stopped. Seems to be fine now... maybe it was open while I stopped pulse or something. qasmixer works fine too, but uses more screen real estate.
<astraljava> len: The xfce4-mixer being the default mixer is due to no one uploading the changes I made to xfce4-volumed. Neither are the indicator-sound changes uploaded, so a new install still won't work with pulse's volume settings.
<cccangel> i am going to school for computer science in programming ... what is the best languages to learn (the closest to linux I have learned is java)... but I have mostly learned microsoft technologies
<cccangel> i am trying to see about specializing for linux technologies.
<astraljava> cccangel: Most apps are written in C and C++, but some in Python, and a few in some others. Closest to linux doesn't mean anything, linux has compilers and/or interpreters for almost every language there is.
<cccangel> i know, i used the wrong word.  i tried to mean more like java is more open source and taught me collboration between operatign systems rather than restricted my software to only windows.
<cccangel> i think thats why it was great my high school taught me java first.
<cccangel> so cool... methinks ill specialize with C++ at my university and shoot for working with a company in linux development'
<astraljava> cccangel: Ubuntu has right from the start promoted the usage of Python heavily. It's loads of fun, too.
<cccangel> i joined a group once... it was like gOS.. and they wanted me to learn python... i helped primarily with the CSS, DIV, and HTML at the time...
<astraljava> Python is the most fun language I've programmed on. Obviously it's not a silver bullet, but works in many cases and places. 
<cccangel> well python could be like my high level language... thing is, I also been wanting to learn C++.... just its different.
<astraljava> Yeah, I'm definitely not arguing learning C++. It's essential and very widely used, definitely not going away.
<astraljava> Just don't overlook ANSI C either.
<cccangel> C/C++ basically?
<cccangel> lol
<cccangel> C & C++
<cccangel> i tried to wrap my mind with C but I like the ability to structure my code with OOO... and C makes it harder... 
<cccangel> i tried to learn on my own...
<astraljava> Yep, they will get you far.
<cccangel> okay... ill do that then
<cccangel> i tell you what would be nice... http://unity3d.com would be awesome if they made their engine officially run on linux
<cccangel> i had a friend who wanted me work on that with him... 
<cccangel> i could self learn but i feel like websites sometimes are worse than an actual book...
<cccangel> i do get financial aid for going to school... any books / brands that you recommend me working with?
<cccangel> all my teachers sucked because they tried so hard to help me get the most paying job and leaned me towards learning stuff within .NET
<cccangel> including my dad.
<astraljava> Not really, I'm mostly self-studied except a few classes more than a decade ago. 
<cccangel> everytime i asked about C/C++ the argument is "oh you do not need to learn that anymore, C# is just as powerful"
<astraljava> meh
<cccangel> apple bootcamp basically made it easier for companies to blow off cross compatiblity since they know people who own an apple computer can just run windows inside their mac.  as for linux... i have no problem putting windows in a box (where it belong) but i hate it as my primary
<astraljava> Yeah. OS wars just deviate far from the topic of this channel, better have that talk elsewhere. :)
<cccangel> yes i know... sorry
<astraljava> No problem. ÃN
<astraljava> grrr
<astraljava> putty on an E7
<astraljava> That was supposed to be a smiley.
<cccangel> im bored... installing that massive Unity environment because i havent tried it yet in wine
<cccangel> when you self learned C/C++ ... what did you use to learn though? back then- books?
<cccangel> i learned java and javascript and .net because i had big books that i like read through , commented on... and then played around with source code examples.
<cccangel> i basically started with web dev first... and worked myself into other things.
<astraljava> Mostly the 'net. Could have used good books, but never got around to getting any.
<cccangel> when i look at some C/C++ websites they just ... i guess written different sometimes because its on a webpage rather than in a book.... that and the strucutre is totally different
<cccangel> i started relating to syntax fine with C++ and some C... no big its the library and use of it that bothers me
<cccangel> oh... ANSI C++ is a newer C++ then?
<cccangel> just looked that up...
<cccangel> astraljava, would you say companies and linux users are using ANSI C++ now?
<astraljava> Don't really know if ANSI and C++ go together that often as C does. But this is not really a programming channel either, and more over I'm not that scholared in such linguistics. Wikipedia has good articles, and there are dedicated channels for them, plus #ubuntu-app-devel. You'll have better success there.
<cccangel> ok... im sorry if this was a headache.
<cccangel> ill bounce
<astraljava> Not at all. :)
<astraljava> Just have to maintain focus, that's all.
<cccangel> well if i was distracting you and your in the middle of something, thats cool.  i was trying to find a resource to look at and i got confused. asked a question. but ill ask elsewhere or also dont feel obligated to respond :) i tend to leave xchat running when im busy myself
<ailo> cccangel: Further down this page you'll see what languages are primarily used for Debian Wheezy http://blog.james.rcpt.to/2012/02/13/debian-wheezy-us19-billion-your-price-free/
<ailo> That's how many lines of code, not how many projects use those languages
<ailo> I'd say Python is very common, but perhaps not as many lines of code is used for a lot of those projects
<astraljava> cccangel: There's an interesting project starting, maybe it would interest you, too?
<cccangel> it could help me learn better
<cccangel> so sure..
<astraljava> cccangel: We want to port gcdmaster to GTK3 so that it's usable again in the modern distributions. You can find it in LaunchPad, but I just created it, work is just beginning.
<astraljava> damn this train network...
<astraljava> I'll be happy to talk about it later when I have a better connection.
<cccangel> gtk3 is a python project ?
<cccangel> id love to look this up while you ride the train :)
<astraljava> No, it's the toolkit that GNOME uses.
<cccangel> oh wow.
<astraljava> cccangel: Search for gcdmaster-gtk3 in launchpad, then read about CDRDAO and why gcdmaster was dropped.
<cccangel> so basically, this would be ported to work more with the libraries of the most recent distro of ubuntustudio? 
<cccangel> i found it.
<astraljava> Not just us, but any other distro. Those libraries gcdmaster relies on are outdated.
<cccangel> ok
<cccangel> oh i somehow saw gtk3 and thought gnome3 my bad.
<cccangel> i know theyre differnet
<astraljava> I'm hoping to start hacking in about 3 weeks after I get the move done and settle down in the new place.
<astraljava> But feel free to get used to the environment meanwhile, so you'll get a grasp of whether it interests you or not.
<astraljava> I'm looking to find a small team to develop it, as I know I can't get it done myself in a reasonable timeframe.
<cccangel> well im navigating myself to the sourcecode atm...
<astraljava> But nothing formal, it'll initially live under the ubuntustudio umbrella.
<cccangel> using the 1.2.2 revision or 1.2.3 revision?
<astraljava> cccangel: Also read the basics of how distributed revision control works using LP and bzr.
<astraljava> I think it says somewhere it's based on the latest CDRDAO release, if not I gotta add it.
<cccangel> i did read into that for two days and setup my LP account and everything
<cccangel> i am just logging into so i can setup my installation
<astraljava> Ok.
<cccangel> like i think i have to recreate my keys... i did a clean install and havent backed them up
<cccangel> meh... i can do that in a bit... i can now checkout i believe
<cccangel> maybe
<cccangel> oh ... so i can learn Python and C++ while doing this...
<cccangel> whadya know.
<cccangel> what is ideal? port the ui to use python and leave the rest at C++?
<astraljava> To be honest, I haven't been able to give it any thought, yet. len is the guy to talk to about it, he's passionate about the old release and keeps an old distro around just for that. :)
<cccangel> hmm...  thing is... now that i am reading through this... how brand / burner specific is the program.  now people got dvd-r, dvd-rw, of different brands ontop with dvd-dl-rw so... it may need to allow support for use on newerr arch?
<cccangel> if i really study io streams onto multimedia like cds, dvds, and blueray, this project can be revived and have added features along with new hardware support but we can take it step by step.
<cccangel> always, step by step.
<cccangel> actually that would be changing the project subject niche.  (nvm)
<astraljava> I have no idea about such, but anyway I'm thinking we should separate gcdmaster from the rest. I will have to read a lot about it myself first, though. I am mainly interested about from the learning gtk3 POV. But it fits nicely under the scope of this distro, hence the locationing.
<cccangel> i actually did a project once for someone when switching calls to one api to another and their project was in java
<cccangel> all i need to do is learn the language a little more in areas i need (i understand variables and such) and then match up apis... i think that concept would work
<cccangel> and im really familiar with eclipse because i used it for java dev when it started flourishing back when I was in high school.
<cccangel> astraljava, i noticed that gcdmaster said they used the gtkmm-2.4 api since a certain version ... and sure enough that api is included in precise and 11.10 ubuntu as well... 
<astraljava> cccangel: Yes well, some libraries that are needed to build gcdmaster are not, however. You can read cdrdao's debian/changelog, it mentions the problem.
<cccangel> so basically people are feeling most apps should be gtk 3 by now... thats understandable.
<cccangel> tech evolves...
<astraljava> It's not so much about feeling, but missing the building blocks from the distribution.
<cccangel> yes.
<cccangel> plus... integration is more seemless when you stay current with the newer apis...
<cccangel> i notice that with some other out of date projects.
<cccangel> or i had outright usability problems... which 
<cccangel> i think you said that way up above
 * cccangel cries when the rain threatened his laptop forcing him to go back inside
<len> astraljava, interesting conversation. Sounds young and innocent .. I am mostly a c kind of person myself. c++ has been difficult for me at best. Most of the time I have just just got frustrated and gone back to c.
<len> But then most projects I have done have been CLI kinds of things. Any GUI stuff, tcl/tk has worked for me.
<astraljava> Best to use tools you're comfortable with. :)
<len> What scares me (or looks difficult... time consuming) about GCDMASTER is that I would need to learn three libs.. the old one, the new one and I think there is one inbetween... 
<len> Unless the code is well separated from gui to work engine.
<astraljava> Well we don't _have_ to rush with it.
<len> Are there tools for building gtk GUIs
<astraljava> I don't know if glade is up-to-date.
<astraljava> Ok afk for a few hours now.
<len> glade is still in 1204 but will it be for long?
<len> CU
<ailo> glade should be up to date
<ailo> Gnome has set up new docs, which I haven't seen before
<ailo> len: astraljava: http://developer.gnome.org/gnome-devel-demos/unstable/index.html.en
<len> ailo, do we want to bring gnome libs in at all?
<ailo> gtk
<len> Or is that just to know what we are looking at?
<ailo> I was more thinking about glade
<ailo> But, I guess those examples do involve gnome libs somewhat
<ailo> Anyway, glade should be up to date with gnome3, which is what everything except KDE will be based on
<len> moving from G2 to G3 would probably be easier than G2 to gtk3
<len> ailo, is there a standard way of querying the DE about theme values? Colours and such..
<ailo> len: I guess gconf or something like that. I don't know much about it
<ailo> dconf, or whatever it is nowadays
<len> That has been something I have not worried about so far... I hit it in the workflow app I have been working on. It is easy to hard code in the colours we are using, but It would be better to pick up theme values on the fly.
<len> OTH, things like ardour or phasex have their own theme take it or leave it.
<ailo> Why do you ask?
<ailo> You want to code an app that has its' own custom theme?
<len> I would like my workflow app to use whatever colour scheme the DE panel uses.
<ailo> You know, I've been thinking of a panel like that for years
<len> ailo, gnome dev centre sugests "Vala".
<ailo> One that changes with the application that is in use, but also always has global controls available
<ailo> I even pictured a panel on the side, just like Ubity has, but something much more intricate
<ailo> Unity*
<len> Ya, that is my thought. really, I want a rewrite of the panel.... That is it should fit in well with the DE
<len> That is unity's biggest problem IMO, that it is too static.
<ailo> OSX has the global menu, but that's just a traditional menu
<ailo> Another thing that would make things easier is coloring
<len> unity is great for how many people use their computer... maybe ten apps from the day they buy it till they throw it out.
<ailo> If the top most button is global, either clicking that, or moving your mouse over it would make the panel global, but the rest of the time it could be specific for the application in use
<len> A good audio workflow with both audio and midi might use 10 to 15 apps.
<ailo> The unity side-panel is still just a quick start panel more or less
<ailo> 10-15 apps at one time sounds a bit much
<len> Yes, but what One has to go through to find anything else is painful unless you know what the app is called
<ailo> Before knowing what an app is called, the easiest way to find it is by category
<len> qjackctl, mixer, a2j and I haven't started any main apps yet. add ardour, qtractor, two or three synths.
<ailo> After knowing what it is called, easiest is just to type the first few letter in a search, or have a quick start
<len> The number goes up quick.
<ailo> I don't like having to administer too much, as a personal preference. I find it's bad when you need to customize too much
<ailo> That's why I like gnome3, actually. Especially when you add a standard menu to it
<len> unities categories are not easy to use. They only show you a few in any cat... The categories are too wide to easily find stuff... this is why we added submenus.
<ailo> search by category is really great
<ailo> Both gnome-shell and unity uses this well
<ailo> Or by keyword
<len> And Unity category use is slow... on any older hardware.
<ailo> Once you find something you like, you want to save it somewhere, quickly - and that's when a quick start panel becomes handy. But, as you said, 15-20 apps is a bit much
<ailo> gnome3 is a bit faster
<ailo> I mean, gnome-shell
<len> I need to try gnome shell too. but we are using xfce so I have been focusing there.
<len> My Yf thinks I spend too much time on the computer as it is ;-)
<len> ailo, G3 and G-shell... one is part of the other, is there something other than G-shell that can be used with G#
<len> s/G#/G3/
<ailo> It might be an option to have a simplified categorization on a quick start panel field, where when the starters come up to a certain number, they are grouped into submenus
<ailo> len: Unity is on top of Gnome3
<ailo> And xfce will be, if it isn't already to a large extent
<len> Better to have the starter change depending on what you are doing.
<ailo> I don't think starters should be visible by default
<ailo> I mean, from my own idea of a panel
<len> How do you envision the desktop looking to the user then?
<ailo> A top panel with a clock, indicator or system tray, and a side panel that changes according to what application is in use
<len> The side panel vanishes when not in use then?
<ailo> The side panel should have a global control as a single button/activator at the top, and when it is activated, the whole panel shows only global controls
<len> And when you select a golbal control?
<len> s/golbal/global/
<ailo> The global stuff is things like file managing, system settings, application search (possible popup menu)=
<len> How do you run anything else?
<ailo> What do you mean?
<ailo> I forgot, quick launchers
<len> These quick launches would be part of the panel then?
<ailo> They would only show once activating the top button
<len> That is better (IMO) than having a menu show up every time I hit the side/bottom of the screen.
<ailo> I haven't thought it through into detail, but how I think is that nothing should show, unless you need it. And everything else should not be more than one or two clicks away (or key commands)
<len> It is funny how the screens keep having more rez, but we stiil want to have nothing but app on it ;-) I agree.
<len> My second thought is that I want it to use very few resources.
<len> (I want everything)
<ailo> I'm actually using a 42 inch TV right now. Yeah, but it's more than just about space. It's just finding a way to make the interface more intuitive, without the need to customize it too much for personal preference
<len> I find Unity slow.... TV? crt of flat?
<ailo> lcd, flat
<len> I figured.
<ailo> I don't like Unity much. gnome-shell, however. I haven't looked at the code much, but it seems to be customizable with Java script, and the theming is in css
<ailo> It feels like what they are after is dissolving the boundaries between the cloud and the client
<len> Intuitive is often what someone is used to.
<ailo> I'm not the kind that doesn't like change. I just like for things to work efficiently
<ailo> There's always a learning curve for anything. The smaller, the better
<len> I have a problem with my data being on someone elses machine... basically they then own it.
<len> I agree, some thing that requires learning and is then easier is good, I am talking about the average person.
<len> My Yf has done accounting on a temp basis. She was generally able to be faster than the people she was working for because she would learn the short cuts the first day... even on custom accounting SW.
<ailo> I think it is only because of low bandwidth that there aren't mature services to allow for people to keep stuff in the cloud for a small fee. At this time, it's perfectly possible to do using your own server. Gnome3 has added the online accounts thing, which in the long run is supposed to be fully integrated with the apps - email-client, calendar, test-editor, and so on
<ailo> At the moment, google and msn are supported, but it would seem likely that someone would be smart enough to start offering similar services, for a small feel, with no ads and full privacy
<len> We all do that to an extent now. I use email on a server.
<len> ... My  server :-)
<len> Audio is still local drive stuff though.
<ailo> I use fastmail right now. I actually pay for it
<ailo> Haven't had the patience to set up an email server yet. 
<len> Mine is squirelmail
<ailo> Going to close my google accounts later on
<ailo> I've looked into that a bit. Looks ok
<len> I have a gmail account, but never use it. I was using the phone thing... but not for a bit.
<len> I am told it gets rid of a lot of the headers when answering email making it hard to thread on our mail list for example.
<ailo> gmail has worked pretty well for me. Filtering for basic usage
<ailo> Good amount of space too
<ailo> With fastmail, you don't get as much, even when you pay for it. But, it's fast and private
<len> Ya, I would use it more if I didn't have my own. DO they allow auto forwarding?
<ailo> Yea
<ailo> With fastmail, you can even use a custom dns. I have no idea what gmail offers, if you pay for it. 
<ailo> I guess that's the whole issue. If you don't pay, you have to wade in shit
<len> I basically have all that with my own server anyway.. but then I don't move often either. When you buy a home it costs too much to move, but the mortgage is a lot less than rent.
<ailo> Someday I'll try replacing everything, even the search engine with free stuff
<len> ailo, is your machine amd64?
<ailo> Not this one
<ailo> I have one at our rehersal place
<len> It would be nice if someone tried aeolus and phasex on the ISO on one. They crash on my 32 bit machines.
<len> Seems to be something to do with the PA libs.
<len> Anyway, I need to go...
<ailo> I won't probably be able to test anything on amd64 for a while
<len> ScottL can you test these ^^^?
<ScottL> len, i am zsync'ing now and will test aeolus and phasex
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-04-08
 * smartboyhw says hello!
<zequence> len-dt: It would be good to sort those things out anyway. At least by documenting it
<smartboyhw> zequence: Hello!
<zequence> smartboyhw: hi
<smartboyhw_> zequence: I am thinking of starting a thread in the Ubuntu Studio section of the Ubuntu Forums to let people post feedback.
<smartboyhw_> That way it will help us improve Ubuntu Studio.
<smartboyhw_> That thread will be stickied.
<zequence> smartboyhw: Not a bad idea, but in a way, the whole Forum is doing that
<zequence> smartboyhw: But, of course, one could be more detailed. What do you guys think of this, and that..
<smartboyhw> zequence, yep;)
<zequence> smartboyhw: Before posting official threads on behalf of Ubuntu Studio, that do not have to do with your duties as release manager, I would like it if you let me review what you wrote and give you feedback first
<smartboyhw> zequence, sure do.
<zequence> great
<smartboyhw> I wouldn't draft it till some time later though.
<smartboyhw> Just shouting out in this channel.
<smartboyhw> zequence, hmm how to deal with http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2132668 ?
<smartboyhw> zequence, er I am having some sort of interim release/no interim release argument about Ubuntu Studio in the Kubuntu Devel channel...
 * smartboyhw faints
<contrapunctus> ^ololololo
<smartboyhw> LOL
<smartboyhw> madeinkobaia, how's the artwork going? (Just asking, no pressure):)
<madeinkobaia> Hi Smart : )
<smartboyhw> :)
<madeinkobaia> Things goin' on the good way I think, if you want more infos, I created a scheduling task file for graphics in the ubuntu ressource branch, that way you can have an overwiew of our projects for graphics (note thats "WIP")
<smartboyhw> :)
<madeinkobaia> I start workin' with zequence on how organize the graphics parts :)
<smartboyhw> Good \o/
<madeinkobaia> :P
<madeinkobaia> lol, wrong emo ; )
<smartboyhw> lol
<madeinkobaia> Be back,  I am creating a testing project on launchpad for catch how blueprints management works. 
<smartboyhw> madeinkobaia, +1
<madeinkobaia> :D
<smartboyhw> ... who changed the slideshow on ubuntustudio.org to the Beta 2 link!?
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-04-09
<Len-nb> zequence, FYI - http://mhall119.com/2013/04/uds-13-05-ubuntus-second-online-developer-summit/
<smartboyhw> zequence: len-dt: ttoine: madeinkobaia: holstein:UDS-1305 was announnced. We should plan a session.
<ttoine> ok
<ttoine> zequence, what is funny: now that I use my @ubuntustudio.org address, spreadshirt is ok with my licence. it will help us a lot for PR !
<smartboyhw> ttoine, +1
<smartboyhw> \o/\
<smartboyhw> zequence, holstein len-dt Len-nb nice calc in http://people.ubuntu.com/~unit193/pisg/ubuntustudio.html
 * smartboyhw thinks zequence has got a job now since he seems so busy that he isn't responding to me now...
<holstein> lol
<zequence> smartboyhw: I am always busy :)
<zequence> Was just out cycling for the first time this year. Still cold, but it works. 
<zequence> smartboyhw: Len-nb: Saw the notice about UDS. Don't think we need to do sessions for our own sake, but it might be interesting to try to involve our user community, and have them join
<zequence> madeinkobaia: holstein: ^
<zequence> ..and whoever else who might be interested
<smartboyhw> zequence: +1
<smartboyhw> I actually have a doodle poll readied.
<smartboyhw> lol
<zequence> smartboyhw: What's a doodle poll?
<smartboyhw> zequence: To vote on what time the session is.
<zequence> smartboyhw: I think as there are so few of us, we just decide a time - unless we can' decide for ourselves
<smartboyhw> OK.
<zequence> smartboyhw: Do you have a link to this doodle poll?
<smartboyhw> wait.
<smartboyhw> http://doodle.com/a77tkefnxy7wy69s
<falktx_> new jack2 packages went in! yay!
<falktx_> ...finally
<smartboyhw> falktx_: \o/
<zequence> falktx_: I missed that. Great news
<zequence> Only Precise so far, it seems
<falktx_> no, quantal too
<zequence> Ok. I haven't got a notification about that yet
<zequence> I haven't even got a report from the bug yet. Was changed 4 min ago :)
<zequence> I've been a little busy, so haven't yet got the PA patch working. Only that one left still
<madeinkobaia> See you all :)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-04-10
<smartboyhw> zequence, one suggestion: Do tell your age on zequence.net, if not people will be thinking we have a teenager for project lead:P
<smartboyhw> LOL
<zequence> smartboyhw: I have a feeling they will draw a different conclusion from reading the text though ;)
<smartboyhw> zequence, ;) :P Actually non-good question: How old ARE you?
<zequence> smartboyhw: I'm 35 years old.
<smartboyhw> zequence, really nice age eh?
<smartboyhw> :P
<zequence> I think you don't really become an adult until at least the age of 25. Your brain is not fully developed until then, at it is evident when you look back at your life
<zequence> Yes, being over 30 is quite nice
<zequence> I'm not the kind that misses being a kid. I couldn't wait to grow up when I was a kid
<smartboyhw> lol
<smartboyhw> zequence, hmm I haven't written anything for a while in my blog. Can you suggest what to write?:P
<zequence> smartboyhw: If you have nothing to write about, perhaps you should think about something to do, worth writing about?
<zequence> I'm not a big blogger myself, and I read very little
<smartboyhw> zequence, ...
<zequence> If something means a lot to you, then it will probably mean something for someone else too. Especially if it is something that people can related to easily
<smartboyhw> zequence, OK:)
 * smartboyhw waves to madeinkobaia 
<madeinkobaia> Hi smartboyhw :)
<madeinkobaia> What's up ?
<madeinkobaia> Hi all :P
<smartboyhw> madeinkobaia, just a friendly wave:)
<madeinkobaia> Cool, could you send me some sunny waves too, its damn dark in Belgium, feels to be in December : /
<smartboyhw> madeinkobaia, grrr it's damn rainy here too.
<madeinkobaia> : //
<len-dt> rainy here too... didn't stop me from wearing shorts though... two blocks of walking and I was all warmed up.
<smartboyhw> len-dt, grrr. Why is everywhere rainy?
<len-dt> grows good food.
<smartboyhw> len-dt, +1:)
<len-dt> gotta wake the family up... Bye
<madeinkobaia> See you Len : )
<Len-live> Testing daily for arandr and language in qjackctl. Both work in live session (32 bit ISO/machine)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-04-11
<Len-1304> Fresh install- no problem with arandr
<Len-1304> I will have to wait till the updates after install have finished installing though to be sure :)
<Len-1304> I know I had tested arandr since beta1, but was not sure about beta 2.
<Len-1304> we do have two menu items for "Online Accounts" one above the other :P (in settings)
<Len-1304> qjackctl is in english for me. I do get "Warning: no translation found for 'en_CA' locale: /usr/share/qt4/translations/qt_en_CA.qm
<Len-1304> Warning: no translation found for 'en_CA' locale: /usr/share/locale/qjackctl_en_CA.qm"
<Len-1304> I am not sure where the en_CA came from. All of the screens on the install and at boot showed "English" or en_US.
<Len-1304> en_CA would be correct based on my location as set in the timezone page, but that should be separate.
<Len-1304> Also, I can find no way of changing language.
<Len-1304> reboot
<Len-nb> zequence, we need to find out how language is set on install
<smartboyhw> astraljava, speaking of your G+ post I rather want a window alongside my emails instead of a new, standlone mail-composing window:)
<smartboyhw> Ooh here's len-dt :)
<len-dt> Good morning smartboyhw ... good night... just logged in to get some tunes..
<smartboyhw> len-dt, :O
<smartboyhw> Good night on your side already!?
 * smartboyhw wonders why a Fuduntu person has run into here:P
<DarkEra> oh, i'm just a mod there but thinking about stepping down from that project soon
<smartboyhw> DarkEra, :O
<smartboyhw> DarkEra, you actually use Ubuntu Studio?
<DarkEra> i installed the beta 2 yesterday so
<smartboyhw> DarkEra, \o/
<DarkEra> another thing i planned is to install 12.04 LTS on another partition
<DarkEra> you think i fill out bug reports for fun on launchpad? xD
<smartboyhw> DarkEra, XD sure:)
<astraljava> smartboyhw: Oh you mean like creating some space aside the list of message? Like panes in an email client? Yeah, that would be optimal. Won't hold my breath, though.
<smartboyhw> astraljava, oh.
<astraljava> But it should totally be possible, and with enough developer interest, doable, especially now that screens with considerably larger information-base (Full-HD or bigger) are becoming a standard.
<smartboyhw> astraljava, :)
<smartboyhw> zequence, got any interest in downloading and installing http://old-releases.ubuntu.com/releases/ubuntustudio/releases/gutsy/release/ubuntustudio-7.10-alternate-amd64.iso ? (LOL)
<DarkEra> hmmm... i still might have that one and even 7.04 iirc somewhere
<smartboyhw> DarkEra, :O
 * smartboyhw is TOTALLY surprised:P
<DarkEra> i started in the beginning of 2007 with Linux :)
<smartboyhw> DarkEra, :)
<smartboyhw> zequence, interestingly: All Ubuntu Studio images at that time are alternates:)
<DarkEra> i know my way around but still am a kind of a basic user
<smartboyhw> DarkEra, :)
<smartboyhw> And we have Source DVDs!?!?!
 * smartboyhw drops jaw
<ttoine> zequence, madeinkobaia: http://ubuntustudio.spreadshirt.fr/
<ttoine> hehe
<ttoine> don't be afraid by the look of the mug
<ttoine> it is a trial
<smartboyhw> ttoine: \o/
<ttoine> but now, you know it is possible to create branded stuff for our users.
<smartboyhw> ttoine: Eh it says the shop hasn't been activated 
<smartboyhw> ttoine: I just see no mug.
<madeinkobaia> ttoine : cool to have created it ! No mug by my side too 
<ttoine> ah yes
<ttoine> it is not yet activated
<ttoine> as I am logged I can see it
<ttoine> madeinkobaia, so now, I am waiting for the artwork ;-)
<smartboyhw> ttoine: Er give us a sneek peek:P
<madeinkobaia> ttoine : :P
<madeinkobaia> ttoine : Do they give pre-made models as I told you ? An example of what I am talkin' here : http://fav.me/d5658dv
<ttoine> madeinkobaia, I see your artwork, but why do you say it is premage ?
<ttoine> premade ?
<madeinkobaia> In fact I don't know how they work, (I never work with spreadshirt), some printers company ask to have 1) a realistic draw of the t-shirt (like on the preview on the link) some others 2) just ask the colors, logos, pictures and a description. If its the 1) sometimes they gives a pre-made draw of the t-shirt (or mug or what you want) and you just have to complete it. Its more quick and simple in that case. 
<TheBingsta> love this operating system
<TheBingsta> just 1 quick question, how do you setup Dual Screen?
<ttoine> TheBingsta, here about devel.
<ttoine> however, can you tell us what is your graphic card ?
<TheBingsta> i do not remember.
<ornj> That helps
<TheBingsta> is there a way of finding out in ubuntu?
<DarkEra> what version of Ubuntu Studio is it anyway?
<DarkEra> TheBingsta, ^
<TheBingsta> the latest version at the top of http://ubuntustudio.com/download
<DarkEra> ah, 12.10
<TheBingsta> yep
<DarkEra> you could try setting up the dual monitors with Arandr
<DarkEra> that's one option
<TheBingsta> arandr? download from software centre?
<DarkEra> it's already installed iirc and can be found under Settings
<DarkEra> in the menu that is
<DarkEra> i'll be back in a few, having diner. I would consider though to take your question towards #ubuntustudio for further support
<TheBingsta> cheers
<madeinkobaia> Bye all, see you tomorrow :)
<ornj> I notice some strings remain untranslated in the Xfce menu... Would love to know how I can help with the Spanish-language localization...
<zequence> Seems like I missed everybody
<zequence> I did get scared looking at the logo on the coffee mug, until I read the sentence, don't be scared - it's just a trial
<TheBingsta> DarkEra, thanks, and also i would say thank you to Lump for introducing me to Ubuntu Studio
<DarkEra> TheBingsta, you're welcome and i hope it worked with Arandr
<DarkEra> hi zequence 
<TheBingsta> it has :P
<TheBingsta> also.. another question.. how to i get tsclient and rdesktop?
<DarkEra> ok cool, did you save the configuration so you can load it the next time?
<TheBingsta> yes i did thanks
<DarkEra> thumbs up ;)
<TheBingsta> DarkEra, what ubuntu version is it using?
<DarkEra> what you mean?
<DarkEra> sorry, i'm a bit distracted at the moment, kids running around here
<TheBingsta> because i want to use terminal services on my Windows Server.
<DarkEra> well, i don't know to be honest because i came back to ubuntu studio since yesterday after a very long time
<TheBingsta> oh ok
<zequence> DarkEra: Hello
<DarkEra> so i need to get back into things again, bit rusty at the moment
<holstein> !audio
<ubottu> If you're having problems with sound, click the Volume applet, then Sound Preferences, and check your Volume, Hardware, Input, and Output settings.  If that fails, see https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Sound - https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SoundTroubleshooting - http://alsa.opensrc.org/DmixPlugin - For playing audio files,  see !players and !mp3.
<holstein> mabye i should be more about keeping fisher using ubuntustudio, but it seems like xubuntu is a better fit
<Len-nb> holstein, idjc uses jack :)
<holstein> i like it too.. seems handy
<Len-nb> It is set up for either streaming or recording or both.
<holstein> i think that could be an answer for someone ready to make it happen
<Len-nb> However, I think Fisher would find it complicated at this point. from what I have seen
<holstein> yup
<holstein> overkill arguably for his needs,.. but way over his head
<holstein> i was thinking he/she was about to get frustrated anyways
<zequence> When he started out, he failed to mention why he was using jack, with Audacity
<Len-nb> zequence, using audacity for streaming?
<zequence> Len-nb: tbh, I'm not sure what he was doing, technically
<Len-nb> Audacious even makes more sense.
<Len-nb> zequence, I can't reproduce the arandr bug on my machine (fresh install)
<DarkEra> the one i reported?
<Len-nb> zequence, There is a language problem though. The install doesn't seem to give the user a way to set language.
<Len-nb> Bug 1167553
<ubottu> bug 1167553 in Ubuntu Studio "Arandr won't start on Ubuntu Studio 13.04 Beta 2" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1167553
<Len-nb> ubiquity seems to use a language that goes with the users location.
<DarkEra> yep that's the one i reported and running the 64bit beta 2
<Len-nb> All of the language related settings I did were English or en_US, but I am set up en_CA anyway.
<Len-nb> Two problems with that... one I did not ask for it, though at least my keyboard is set right, and there does not seem to be a place to change it after install.
<Len-nb> Hmm, xubuntu has language support in settings.
 * Len-nb needs to reboot his desktop to look at 13.04
<DarkEra> language support is also in settings on ubuntu studio 13.04. When i looked at Regional Formats it was set to German
<Len-nb> xubuntu uses gnome-language selector
<len-dt> 12.04 has the settings for language.
<len-1304> Ok, Language support is there just not in the settings manager. That will get fixed next cycle along with the rest of the settings menu stuff.
<zequence> Len-nb: Is this something that also happens on Xubuntu?
<len-1304> zequence, I need to do another install and make sure that ubiquity really doesn't let you know it is selecting the language.
<len-1304>  I think my xubuntu is CA as well.
<Len-nb> Ya it is.
<Len-nb> I don't remember selecting en-CA on any of my installs.
<Len-nb> Just KB stuff which is en_US
<Len-nb> (I do have an en-CA keyboard and it is different than the US one, but I am not using it just now)
<len-1304> zequence, the reason we have two Online Accounts menu items is because one is the app and the other is the same app inside of gnome-control-center
<len-1304> The two desktop files in question are: credentials-preferences.desktop  gnome-credentials-panel.desktop
<len-1304> The second one has an extra category: X-GNOME-Settings-Panel we should be able to exclude that.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-04-12
<holstein> cinammon is nice
<zequence> Haven't tried it, but seems to be very close to how gnome-shell works, technically. Just that it has the Windows layout of panel, manu and status area
<zequence> And no dash
<holstein> zequence: you like gnome shell, right?
<ornj> How do I help out with translation?
<holstein> !contribute
<ubottu> To contribute and help out with Ubuntu, see http://www.ubuntu.com/community/participate and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ContributeToUbuntu
<holstein> ornj: pretty much just hang here and ask :)
<ornj> HI I WANNA MAKE THE MOAR SPANISH PLS
 * ornj hangs
<ornj> tx, holstein
<ornj> Will this, though, affect Ubuntu Studio as well? Or just the main K/X/Ubuntu distributions?
<holstein> ornj: ubuntustudio is "main" and "official" as well
<holstein> we would have some specific documentation though
<ornj> I guess I'm seeing untranslated stuff that seems to be Ubuntu Studio-specific, so that's what I wanted to work on translating.
<holstein> yup.. the other distros wont need that stuff, typically, so they wouldnt see it to translate it
<ornj> i.e. that seems to be translated in Xubuntu
<holstein> ornj: we can use whatever from xubuntu pretty much
<ornj> Like "Audio Production," though, in the Xfce panel menu, is not.
<smartboyhw> zequence, len-1304 uh oh http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2134564
<smartboyhw> We have a nouveau problem.
<len-1304> smartboyhw, I don't know where to go with that. I haven't had that problem here. Lots of people want to say it is a nouveau problem... it is easier not to do anything about it.
<smartboyhw> len-1304, I told him to report bug to nouveau
<len-1304> There are lots of programs that work fine with that driver.
<len-1304> I think it should also go against ubiquity
<smartboyhw> len-1304, OK
<smartboyhw> May be let him file the bug first. We can manually target against ubiquity themselves.
<len-1304> My thought is that the video driver is maintained outside of ubuntu
<len-1304> and for ubuntu to release an installer that won't work on a large percentage of hardware doesn't make sense
<len-1304> If the live desktop shows up at all... then it should be installable.
<smartboyhw> len-1304, yep
<smartboyhw> Hello madeinkobaia :)
<madeinkobaia> Hi smartboyhw ! How are you ? : )
<smartboyhw> madeinkobaia, extremely good!
<madeinkobaia> That rocks : ) 
<zequence> madeinkobaia: Hi
<madeinkobaia> Hi zequence !
<smartboyhw> \o/ zequence is here:)
<madeinkobaia> ; )
<smartboyhw> zequence, um.
<smartboyhw> The PR team should remain small, perhaps no more than five active members. This should hopefully prevent major overlap of news coverage and hopefully such a small group can find an easy (and informal) consensus about what topic each member should cover. 
<smartboyhw> But according to https://launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-public-relations that's 7 :p
<smartboyhw> zequence, I propose removing the ubuntustudio-testing mailing list
<smartboyhw> We only have had ONE email
<smartboyhw> And that's a blank test message from you.
<zequence> smartboyhw: I disagree. The bigger the PR team, the better
<zequence> The more people we reach, the bigger we can get
<smartboyhw> zequence, you made that sentence yourself.
<smartboyhw> It's in the wiki, IIRC
<zequence> The -testing mail list is not used yet, but if I can get my automated test scripts in order, it will soon be used for posting test results
<smartboyhw> zequence, OK
<zequence> smartboyhw: That may have been Scott, who wrote that
<smartboyhw> zequence, OK
<smartboyhw> Let's delete!
<smartboyhw> :P
<zequence> The whole wiki needs a lot more work
<zequence> YOu are welcome to edit it
<smartboyhw> zequence, just been thinking: After 13.04 is released you will have three kernels to maintain :O
<smartboyhw> zequence, I will clean up the wiki some day.
<zequence> I really need to get my mail filtered
<zequence> Had 700 mail in my inbox today
<smartboyhw> zequence, :O
<smartboyhw> zequence, I get 1300 of them after my last exam:P
<madeinkobaia> Bbl : )
<smartboyhw> madeinkobaia, :)
<zequence> smartboyhw: What mail client are you using?
<zequence> I'm using the Opera built in mail client in the web browser. The best graphical mail client I've ever used
<zequence> But, I'm moving to Mutt
<zequence> Just haven't got around to it yet
<smartboyhw> zequence: GMail in Firefox why?
<zequence> smartboyhw: You should try something faster. Doesn't it take a lot of time using the browser?
<zequence> The reason why I'd rather use Mutt is for speed, and being able to make local filtering. Opera is really fast too, but proprietary :(
<zequence> One problem with cli programs is you always need to learn all the key commands before you can start uting it properly
<zequence> Takes some effort getting into it
<zequence> I wasn't a huge cli user in the past, but the more I get into it, the less graphical tools do I use
<smartboyhw> zequence: I don't like desktop mail clients.
<zequence> If you set up your own server, Mutt is not on your desktop, and you can access it from anywhere
<zequence> Ok, new linux-lowlatency in proposed which should fix header linkage bug
<smartboyhw> zequence: I think it fixes VB bug too. Would you please try?
<zequence> smartboyhw: Yes, if that bug has to do with broken header links
<zequence> smartboyhw: It's better for the reporter to find out. Do you have the bug number?
<zequence> never mind. Found it
<smartboyhw> zequence: I think it is the core reason.
<TheBingsta> hello :)
<TheBingsta> i am having some problems with my ViewSonic Monitor. it is acting as if there is no input, when it is enabled.
<DarkEra> TheBingsta,  i think it's better to join #ubuntustudio for support :)
<TheBingsta> oh cheers
<madeinkobaia> See you all : )
<len-live> zequence, Redoing install of 13.04 daily (two days old)
<len-live> The locale chooser does more than set the time zone.
<len-live> It starts out on "page timezone" of ubiquity. default language and country are enlish and US (Default locale = 'en_US.UTF-8').
<len-live> then "Set debian-installer/country = 'CA'" Hmm, I didn't ask for that really, I just set the time zone. What if I want Paris french and PST time zone?
<len-live> Language does not equal location.
<len-live> So now I have locale = 'en_CA.UTF-8' and then language = 'en_CA:en'
<len-live> The logs don't say anything about which timezone was selected even though CA could be any one of 5 timezones (if you include Newfoundland).
<len-live> Newfoundland has its own timezone. UTC - 0330 = NST, Yup 1/2 hour out from the rest of the world.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-04-13
 * smartboyhw eats lunch.
<smartboyhw> Hmm sounds like the header really CAN fix VB.
<smartboyhw> zequence, arandr works for me here (13.04 64-bit)
<smartboyhw> And I confirm the VB bug is fixed.
<zequence> smartboyhw: It's better the person who reports the bug to confirm a bug fixed. You never know what variables on his/hers machine is causing the bug
<zequence> Better not assume too much
<zequence> I haven't followed the issues with arandr, but if this is something that also happens on Xubuntu, I think it would be a good idea to work with them on it
<zequence> I'm moving furniture today. bbl
<smartboyhw> zequence, :O
<smartboyhw> zequence, I think the arandr bug is caused by some python issues
<smartboyhw> zequence, hmm python's default was python2.7
<smartboyhw> But we also have Python 3.
<smartboyhw> I think mine worked because I am trying python 3 for running.
<smartboyhw> zequence, strange: We aren't supposed to ship Python 2 are we?
<smartboyhw> Hmm we still have .
<smartboyhw> But isn't python3 the default!?
<smartboyhw> It clearly runs on Python2.7 (ONLY)
<smartboyhw> So why on EARTH would that happen!?
<smartboyhw> len-1304, you reported no problems when running live?
<smartboyhw> Downloading a 64-bit daily build to see if ARandr works.
<smartboyhw> zequence, as it turns out: This bug DOES exist before 0.1.7.
<smartboyhw> zequence, should we update it before Final Freeze?
<smartboyhw> zequence, I need a FFe for this though.
<smartboyhw> Would it be safe?
<len-1304> smartboyhw, arandr works for me both live and installed.
<smartboyhw> len-1304, I found that we have a solution.
<len-1304> either it is 64bit specific or it is HW specific.
<smartboyhw> len-1304, I don't find it too in 64bit.
<smartboyhw> len-1304, upstream has a patch. I mught upload a new version with it.
<len-1304> k
<smartboyhw> zequence, ping
<smartboyhw> Welcome DarkEra 
<len-1304> smartboyhw, I think zequence is out for most of the day.
<smartboyhw> len-1304, zequence is much more busy these days as a student I think:P
<len-1304> we all have our busy times in life.
<DarkEra> thank you smartboyhw 
<smartboyhw> len-1304, yeah
<smartboyhw> I have my busy times in March (too many damning tests)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-04-14
 * smartboyhw can't think of what to do.
<smartboyhw> Hmm, probably do some daily testing then.
<smartboyhw> zequence, I do wonder: Our boot screen for the images has quite an old logo. Can we ask madeinkobaia to re-design one for 13.10?
<smartboyhw> It would be too late now I know for 13.04.
<smartboyhw_> On the installation session of 13.04 daily.
<smartboyhw> That's me:P
<smartboyhw> Not seeing bugs:)
<smartboyhw> Let me see if Arandr does work in a clean install.
<smartboyhw> (still waiting for the Release Team to ACK and a sponsor to sync)
<zequence> smartboyhw: Are you fixing a bug that deals with arandr?
<zequence> I'm going out for a couple of hours
<smartboyhw> zequence, yep.
<em22> anyone awake?   Im having a problem with external video,  plan to file a bug but cant figure out the area.  from the area finder it ought to be LaptopVideoOutputControl  but I dont see any bugs at all associated with that tag and it appears to be a dead project.  so I am "dazed and confused" :-) about what area to use.  the problem is visible in ARnR but that is not necessarily the source of the problem.  the problem is that it l
<em22> ist all kinds of devices that dont seem to exist... but more importantly I am not given a choice for the video resolution that I need.  this all works in 12.04
<em22> Im testing the 13.04 beta 2
<smartboyhw> em22, what area!?
<em22> hi smartboyhw... ah yes... what area... that is the question that I am asking...   
<smartboyhw> em22, and I'm not understanding what you're saying.....
<em22> I cant use the external vidoe because the resolutions offered is not correct
<em22> also extra devices appear that do not actually exist
<em22> I tried the area finder web page, but the suggestions are less than helpful
<em22> I want to file a bug report but I cant figure out what area to use
<smartboyhw> em22, what do you mean by what area? 
<smartboyhw> (I don't understand)
<smartboyhw> You file a bug in Launchpad.
<smartboyhw> More easily, just do "ubuntu-bug <packagename>" and that shall guide you through.
<em22> when you do ubuntu-bug  or also in lauchpad...  it asks for the area that the bug belongs to....  er uh okay, package name == area
<smartboyhw> em22, yes.
<em22> so for a bug with the external video of a laptop Im trying to figure out what package name
<em22> to use
<smartboyhw> em22, the driver?
<smartboyhw> Your display driver that is.
<em22> xorg
<em22> fglx
<smartboyhw> em22, fglx then.
<em22> oh, okay, that was simple....   thanks
<em22> its a huge complex system, Im still trying to find my way around things
<zequence> em22: fglrx is the name of the AMD driver pacakge
<smartboyhw> zequence, I am actually asking for a sync (for the fix)
<smartboyhw> Just waiting for a release team member to ACK and a normal sponsor to DO the sync.
<em22> I have another question for you...   if you do an lshw and various other things....   the utility is able to get the model name and manufacturer string...  like HP DV7....    I've been searching all over /proc and /sys trying to find that name any ideas?   Id like to include it in my temperature monitoring program
<zequence> smartboyhw: Debian sync? Would you mind posting the bug number
<smartboyhw> zequence, Bug 1168693
<ubottu> bug 1168693 in arandr (Ubuntu) "FFe: Sync arandr 0.1.7.1-1 (universe) from Debian unstable (main)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1168693
<smartboyhw> YEPEE!
<smartboyhw> zequence, you really ought to become a MOTU :P 
<zequence> smartboyhw: So, what does your chances for a sync seem to be? Have you gotten any feedback on that?
<zequence> em22: What kind of monitoring program is that? You're coding it?
<smartboyhw> zequence, I got feedback from a Kubuntu developer and the Lubuntu QA Lead. Both say that if this incorporates an unlaunchable fix I would have a high chance.
<smartboyhw> s/unlaunchable/unlaunchable bug/
<kubotu> smartboyhw meant: "zequence, I got feedback from a Kubuntu developer and the Lubuntu QA Lead. Both say that if this incorporates an unlaunchable bug fix I would have a high chance."
<zequence> smartboyhw: Will it need dependencies to be updated?
<smartboyhw> zequence, no.
<em22> hi zsequence!   fglrx...   Ive hit two bugs, one is cant use external monitor because the list of resolutions does not include the one I need.  the other bug is I cant install the proporiaty (sp) drivers, it hangs about about 10% are these knowen issues?
<smartboyhw> zequence, it just's that:P
<smartboyhw> zequence, http://paste.ubuntu.com/5704407/
<zequence> em22: fglrx is the name of the proprietary driver, and to my knowledge, it doesn't support newer x servers, beyond 12.04
<smartboyhw> That's the NEWS from the 0.1.7.1 tarball
<DarkEra> good afternoon guys
<smartboyhw> Hello DarkEra :)
<zequence> smartboyhw: Ok. Seems like the best way to fix it then
<smartboyhw> zequence, :)
<zequence> em22: At least, this was the case about 6 months ago
<zequence> em22: You might be able to write a xorg.conf forcing the resolutions you need
<em22> zsequence: yes, I wrote a temperature and cpu load monitoring program.  see:  https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux-lowlatency/+bug/1166916   go down to the bottom and look at the attachments.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1166916 in linux-lowlatency (Ubuntu) "temperature overheating of cpu and radeon in 12.10 and above" [Undecided,New]
<smartboyhw> zequence, you said you requested the Forums Council to add the whole PR team as mod, but they only put you as mod. Any reasons? (Not trusting me or the whole PR team or what?)
<smartboyhw> em22, well that might just be a -generic problem.
<smartboyhw> zequence could surely fix that though:P
<zequence> smartboyhw: I didn't know if they could give authorization to whole LP teams, but it seems not
<smartboyhw> zequence, yep. Anyways you could just do the thing yourself:P
<zequence> em22: did you ever try fglrx on 12.04?
<em22> yes, I have now proved that it is generic but I dont seem to have permission to alter the bugs status
<smartboyhw> em22, why?
<smartboyhw> em22, let me do that.
<zequence> em22: I'm thinking this is really a driver problem, with the free drivers
<zequence> smartboyhw: ^
<smartboyhw> zequence, the drivers are an extreme problem.
<em22> I have a very vague memory that I may have added the missing resolution to 12.04....   but an associated problem is that I now see half-a-dozen video devices that dont actually exist
<smartboyhw> zequence, one weird thing though (I will report a bug, but dunno how to do stack traces): Today I boot into 3.8.0-18 lowlatency and closed the lid after selecting the kernel using GRUB2. Then when I reopened the lid again I saw a hell of stack traces:O
<zequence> I changed the bug to affect: xserver-xorg-video-ati
<smartboyhw> zequence, \o/
<em22> I dont know why, but there are fields that I see on other bugs that I cant access...  and some of the fields that i can access I simply do not understand.  I have not used launchpad very much and find it a bit obtuse
<zequence> em22: with fglrx, you can't monitor temprature. At least not, that I know of. You should be noticing the difference easily by just listening to the fans
<zequence> And physically monitoring heat directly around the card(s) with your hand, or whatever
<smartboyhw> em22, and I surely won't watch video on Virtualbox:P
<em22> well, in 13.04 lm-sensors does indeed report the temperature for the radeon...  and it used to do so for 12.04 before I ran the auto detect sensors program...
<zequence> em22: It will monitor temprature only if you are using the free drivers: xserver-xorg-video-ati
<em22> all my program does is to reformat the output of lm-sensors and combine it with load info that I grab from /proc
<em22> I always watch video on virtualbox... it is very very impressive....  12.04 I can have 4 going at the same time and not overheat
<smartboyhw> em22, :O
 * smartboyhw would never watch video on such a program.
<zequence> btw, the guy tete did an error when starting alsa_in before. He wasn't providing the correct device. Probably his ~/.jackdrc was not correctly configured, and he needed to use the "-d <card" option
<zequence> I was helping him in #jack with this
<zequence> Since jack hasn't been updated for probably a few months, an update is very unlikely to cause problems
<zequence> I mean, a system update would unlikely cause any problems
<em22> it works great!  first off Im stuck because netflix ceo is very tight with microsoft therefore netflix will never be available for linux even though it could easily be.  so I run xp in virtualbox.  beyond that, since my host os changes a lot I use virtualbox for my stable development environment...  I do all my real work inside of vbx and yes that includes watching the occasionsal video
<smartboyhw> zequence, OK
<smartboyhw> em22, ........
<em22>  did you ever try fglrx on 12.04? ==  yes. I've tried all 3 drivers on 12.04, they all work fine as far as I can tell.   I have zero overheating prolems on 12.04  enven thoug it is a bit hotter than 10.10
<em22> smartboyhw:  Im no longer convinced that the overheating is *only* a video driver issue...   at idle the video is hotter, but underload the cpu gets much hotter than the video.  see the attachment for 13.04 idle to max to idle
<smartboyhw> em22, point that to zequence :P
<em22> zequence: at 100% load the cpu hit 96c yikes! before I shut it down.  see the data.  meanwhile the video was about 4-5 degress cooler
<zequence> em22: Is this a laptop
<zequence> em22: When your card overheats, it's a card driver issue, no doubt
<zequence> em22: The kernel itself does not do anything except point applications to the driver
<zequence> em22: If your CPU is at 100%, I can't see how it would get hotter or colder on different kernels
<zequence> em22: If you like, try a newer kernel on 12.04
<em22> well the difference at 100% load is about 15c degrees between 12.05 and 13.04...  that is a huge difference.  both computers running similar load, both reported as near 100%
<zequence> em22: Just that it stands against logic
<em22> okay, would it be compatible to put the kernel from 13.04 onto 12.04?
<zequence> em22: It'll work
<em22> logic or not...  that is the data and the fans and the temperature on the hand
<em22> okay, I will give that a try...  
<em22> I will do that now...  be back in about 30 minutes
<em22> bye for now
<zequence> em22: later
<zequence> There's also a chance heat monitoring is off
<em22> okay, Im back...  for the moment...   I was under the impression that I just needed to copy the kernel files  *17-generic  and jigger the grub menu....   but it didn't work.   I got errors like pci vga not found...    so I am now reviewing  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kernel/MainlineBuilds   which among other things says I must uninstall virtualbox  argh.    have I missed something?  is there another way to do this?
<smartboyhw> Hmm?
<smartboyhw> em22: We aren't kernel experts:P
<em22> oh, okay...  then I will just follow what the web says...  of course a lot of what the web says is wrong/obsolete
<smartboyhw> em22: And either I have understanding problems today, or your question is just unclear.
<smartboyhw> What do you mean by copying files?
<em22> sorry...  this relates to a conversation from about an hour ago
<smartboyhw> You just install the kernel â¦
<smartboyhw> em22: Oh OK.
<em22> what we discussed is to take the kernel from 13.04 and run it on 12.04
<smartboyhw> em22: Then you should be copying the 3.8 kernel instead of an 3.5 kernel....
<em22> well, yeah if it was in synaptic...  but the kernels for new editions dont show up for older editions
<smartboyhw> em22: We will probably add such support for Precise later 
<smartboyhw> em22: It does for -generic 
<smartboyhw> It just doesn't for -lowlatency
<em22> yes, I copied th 3..8..17-generic   about half a dozen files from one boot dir to the other boot dir
<smartboyhw> em22: That wouldn't work I think.
<em22> then I tried to get grub to auto detect the change, but it didnt do then I created a manual entry and booted it...  and the kernal was not happy
<em22> yes didnt work....  somehow I had the impression that it would...  so I guess I just follow the web page
<smartboyhw> em22: Wait. I think there's a packagw for you.
<em22> okay great
<smartboyhw> em22: Add the PPA from https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-x-swat/+archive/r-lts-backport
<em22> okay, thanks!!!
<em22> back later
<smartboyhw> zequence: We REALLY ought to have a linux-lts-raring-lowlatency package for Ubuntu Studio 12.04.3:P
<smartboyhw> zequence: That will put a bit of pressure on you though, making so many kernelsâ¦ (maybe not a good idea then)
<micahg> rebasing isn't hard, it's the testing for the SRU :)
<smartboyhw> micahg: That's the issue.
<zequence> One simply needs to download the kernel .deb files and install them manually
<em22> okay, I have posted the results to the bug.  bottom line is that it runs about 6 degrees hotter so something very stange is going on here
<em22> be sure to take a look at this video, it was essential for my load testing :-)   Im sure you will enjoy it.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H93n-k3SkiQ
<em22> well, I gotta go get some sleep.  bye for now
<em22> thanks for all the help smartboyhw
<len-1304> zequence, do you know what the difference is between the document viewer in the menu (in office) and the internal pdf view in firefox?
<len-1304> I have an 84 page pdf (ice1712 data sheet as happens) that after 60 or so pages just sits with the loading animation forever, but firefox allows reading to the end.
<len-1304> page 62 won't render with evinced
<len-1304> It doesn't seem to be file size. I can see the end of larger files with more pictures and less pages.
<len-1304> Not page number related either. Found bigger file with more pages still ok.
<len-1304> zequence, putting a bug in anyway. Probably document uses non-standard feature
 * smartboyhw hugs Scott Kitterman for doing the Arandr sync:)
<DarkEra> cool \o/
<smartboyhw> DarkEra: :)
<DarkEra> so it should be in the updates?
<smartboyhw> DarkEra: 13.04 yep.
<DarkEra> awesome
<DarkEra> i currently run Ubuntu Studio 12.04 and have 13.04 on another partition for testing
<smartboyhw> DarkEra: \o/
<DarkEra> i love the work you guys are doing and trying to get a bit more involved. My next step is to get back into music creation, so far Ubuntu Studio came out as the best distro for me
<micahg> the new arandr should be backportable to precise if desired (see requestbackport in ubuntu-dev-tools)
<DarkEra> micahg, arandr works fine for me on 12.04 and have the dual screen working great on it. :)
<smartboyhw> micahg: That's a SRUâ¦
<smartboyhw> It fixes A BUG.
<micahg> smartboyhw: well, you can backport the bug fix if there's a bug in the precise version
<smartboyhw> micahg: I will probably do so.
<micahg> I was saying the new version is backportable as is if there were features wanted (but if an SRU is needed, that should be done first)
<DarkEra> i'll be back in a bit, booting into 13.04 and pull in the updates
<smartboyhw> micahg: As the upstream website says: This problem exists when version <0.1.6
<smartboyhw> micahg: SRU first. 
#ubuntustudio-devel 2014-04-07
<Mirv> stochastic: I posted to the devel mailing list as well about upgrading pitivi, but indeed my IRC channel was wrong
<Mirv> I've also e-mailed Michael Terry to get his opionion since he was handling the last pitivi upload and tried to keep pitivi in main the last time still.
<stochastic> Thanks Mirv, I'll leave a comment for now stating that I would support inclusion in 14.04 if the release team allows it since it's clearly an outdated version we're shipping at this point.
<Mirv> thanks stochastic for your help
<stochastic> OvenWerk1, any thoughts on Bug #1253009 ?
<ubottu> bug 1253009 in pitivi (Baltix) "[FFe] Please sync latest upstream release (0.9x) from Debian unstable - Pitivi developers recommends to use 0.92 or later" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1253009
<zequence_> Mirv: stochastic: I'm sure it's fine. I'd just like to give it a test run first, to see what it changes
<Mirv> it should be easy to give it a try with sudo apt-add-repository ppa:timo-jyrinki/pitivi if one just happens to have 14.04 already installed somewhere
<zequence> Mirv: Gave it a try. Added an additional comment in the bug report.
<Mirv> thanks zequence, that should help. I'll re-ping the release team after I've also a reply from mterry regarding what he thinks about it since he was packaging it the last time.
<zequence> I finally got a Windows8 laptop to do test on.
<zequence> Booting worked fine, with secure boot on. going to try installing later
<zequence> our wp is not zoomed, so it only looks ok in 16:9
<zequence> Installation worked. Booting worked, without disabling either fastboot or secureboot
<zequence> I did poke with one setting, enabling custom signatures
<zequence> So, Ubuntu Studio 14.04 is EFI capable (the 64 bit version)
<zequence> the login manager has the wrong wp though
<SonikkuAmerica> holstein:  Hello again. I'm going to begin working with the image testing under UEFI starting tonight. :)
<peanutb> zequence: Sorry for the delayed reply. It looks like the -lowlatency kernel produces the same errors when in IDE mode (with AHCI disabled). So I guess it is hardware-specific.
<stochastic> zequence, so bug #1253009 has been approved for FFE.  Is there anything we should be doing to push that through or is that something Mirv will do?
<ubottu> bug 1253009 in pitivi (Baltix) "[FFe] Please sync latest upstream release (0.9x) from Debian unstable - Pitivi developers recommends to use 0.92 or later" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1253009
#ubuntustudio-devel 2014-04-08
<Mirv> stochastic: zequence: if anyone of you happens to have upload rights to pitivi then running requestsync from ubuntu-archive-tools would be nice, but otherwise I'll try to find someone to sponsor
<Mirv> the ubuntu specific change isn't needed when demoting to universe at the same time, so sync is enough
<OvenWerk1> stochastic: my experience in video editing is very small.... unless you count tape editing.
<OvenWerk1> my first thought is that we have three video editors already, how is this different or better? Asking from a straight I don't know enough to say POV.
<OvenWerk1> It is true that one of them is there because it does other things first (blender).
<Mirv> stochastic: zequence: pitivi handled by infinity! \o/ 0.93-3 now in trusty
<OvenWerk1> We do have more than one audio editing set up too.
<stochastic> OvenWerk1, okay, I'll keep that in mind for future reference - my personal opinion is the PiTiVi is going to show a very large improvement in the near future (especially with 0.93 now in the repos, thanks Mirv!)
<OvenWerk1> We may be able to drop one of the others though.
<stochastic> Well certainly not Blender
<OvenWerk1> We are also doing more with user choice on what parts to install in the first place
<stochastic> OpenShot vs. PiTiVi could be a discussion for 14.10
<OvenWerk1> openshot was the one I have the most problem with
<OvenWerk1> I end up using kdenlive
<OvenWerk1> But that could be just me not knowing what I am doing
<stochastic> I have the least troubles with OpenShot - provided I save often.  However it's been a long time since I've tried PiTiVi in a robust project.
<Mirv> my 0.1 cents is that everything crashes (openshot, pitivi, kdenlive) but I liked pitivi during 12.04 when I learned which settings to use to have it working. that's why I have high hopes for the new Pitivi series now that the development has picked up again.
<stochastic> I'm personally in favour of choice for the end user - at least until a clear winner emerges as the go-to program (such as Ardour or Audacity is in their fields)
<OvenWerk1> Anyway, I am not going to say yes or no just because I know I am not qualified.
<stochastic> ^^ yeah Mirv, I'm very encouraged by the development pace of PiTiVi.
<Mirv> somewhere after 12.10 pitivi regressed, since it saw no changes and apparently some minor GStreamer 0.10 series changes made it worse
 * stochastic does't know why he's in the habit of spelling it as PiTiVi rather than Pitivi
<Mirv> stochastic: it was originally called PiTiVi :) I think it was deemed too complicated and renamed later.
<stochastic> ahh that explains it
 * stochastic feels like an old fart now
<OvenWerk1> Anyway, I need to go away again. Great to have people moving video forward.
<`Fibz> i end up using both openshot and kdenlive
<`Fibz> almost every time 
<zequence> stochastic: OvenWerk1: One thing I'd like to look at this coming cycle is our metas. Debian has started their own set of metas called multimedia-, which are also available in our repos. I don't know what they're policy is for them - currently they don't look that well outlined (something we could help them with).
<zequence> Until now, there has been the philosophy that we only ship one enough applications to support any imaginable workflow, and not have duplicate choices
<zequence> And, I suppose that is a good thing
<zequence> But, we could make the selection more sophisticated. Make it really simple for newbies on one hand, and giving the ability of choice for people accustomed to Linux on the other.
<zequence> I have some ideas about this, that I'd like to present later.
<`Fibz> sorry to butt in, i think the current menu based "Extra So and so Applications" works well
<zequence> In the latest release, we have the plugin that lets the user choose packages individually from our metas. The plugin is so, so. I'd like to work on enhancing it. Also, include the source for our ubuntustudio-installer
<`Fibz> could you provide me with more info on this? i did not see this when i upgraded some of my systems to 14.04
<zequence> `Fibz: Have you tried them on our latest release?
<`Fibz> wrong channel sorry
<`Fibz> i've been watching you talk about them but when i installed, i saw nothing about them, just the regular install process
<zequence> I need to test them. Not sure they work right now (nothing happened last time I clicked one)
<zequence> `Fibz: It's there. Just use a recent image for a fresh install
<`Fibz> i'll try that thank you
<zequence> stochastic: OvenWerk1: I think it would be a good idea to consider making all available multimedia packages browsable and installable in some way, for our image and the installer program.
<zequence> ..not only the default set that we provide in our metas
<zequence> The menu items "Extra <workflow>" is a good step towards that direction. But, I think we could do more for that.
<stochastic> hmm, I'm of the opinion that giving new users too much choice will result in too much bulk added to their systems and program menus that confuse and hinder them
<`Fibz> i did that
<zequence> stochastic: As I said, we make it easier for new users, but, we also provide choice
<zequence> There's no conflict between the two
<stochastic> new users will invariably select 'yes I want all' so perhaps we could call it "advanced configuration"
<zequence> Yeah
<zequence> One thing I'd really like to do is add a new netinstall image
<zequence> The DVD is getting quite large, and most people will only need a fragment of it
<zequence> The DVD could be used both as a tool and a showcase, while the netinstall would be the smarter choice for installations
<zequence> And, so, the DVD should cover all workflows, while the installation itself could provide more choices
<zequence> How exactly we do that, I don't know. We could introduce new metas, called ubuntustudio-audio-all, etc
<zequence> And since debian mutimedia is doing their own metas now, I think it would be good to look at if they serve the same purpose as ours do, and in that case consider working on those, instead of ours, and more or less let our metas depend on theirs
<zequence> But, from what I've seen so far, their metas don't seem to fit our philosophy
<zequence> Anyway, those are some thoughts I've had on that for a while. 
<stochastic> I think we should maintain our own metas rather than take on deb-multimedia's metas - it will give us some freedom for user responsiveness and new philosophy design
<zequence> I think that depends on how we could influence Debian Multimedia, and how alike we think. I'm not sure they have a clear philosophy for their metas yet.
<zequence> So, I think it's quite possible to have a big influence on that. And, if one would establish a clear philosophy for their metas, which coincides with ours, we would make maintenance easier for us
<zequence> Not saying I believe it will happen, but as with anything, if it can be done upstream, it should
<zequence> I just realized I hadn't changed the default background for our lightdm theme. We still have one UIFe
<cub_work> Hi all
<cub_work> just to pitch in a bit on Pitivi and several video tools
<cub_work> I've tried them all before as well as Cinelerra
<cub_work> Nowadays I mainly use Kdenlive and I know a Swedish film maker who is doing his latest project all in FOSS, that also tried several video editing software but chose Kdenlive in the end as the best working tool
<cub_work> I think it's good to have Pitivi 0.93 instead of 0.15 which wouldn't even import any of my video files
<cub_work> I ran 0.93 yesterday and everything imported just fine, without having to install any extra codecs or anything. That said I was quite confused when trying to edit though, despite their slogan that you won't need a manual because it
<zequence> Probably, we don't need pitivi in our meta, but perhaps it will become a good choice instead of kdenlive in the future?
<cub_work> 's so intuitive. Maybe I'm just stupid.:)
<cub_work> I would say OpenShot and Pitivi are similar as of today
<zequence> Ah, well, it's like with Logic on Mac. Not logical at all
<zequence> Ah
<zequence> So, more of a possible replacement for openshot? openshot seems ok. I've only used it a little.
<cub_work> Kdenlive to me seems to have a bit more advanced editing features, but still not as complicated as Cinelerra
<zequence> We have a problem with package selection. We don't have a good system for that
<cub_work> I think so, but I haven't used openShot or pitivi that much, since they couldn't do what I was trying to do
<cub_work> exactly, it comes down to the old to-do thing to go through the software, which are similar, which are necessary and so on
<cub_work> I'm not sure about the development of Kdenlive? I haven't seen much happening for quite some time
<cub_work> hmm though now there was an update on their site just last week saying they would be more active. :)
<cub_work> Anyways, I'm a bit sad about my work in Ubuntu Studio, I had such high hopes to get involved for 14.04. But instead I've been tied up in life even more than before.
<cub_work> Now, back to work!
<zequence> bug 1304214
<ubottu> bug 1304214 in ubuntustudio-lightdm-theme (Ubuntu) "[UIFe] New default wp for ubuntustudio-lightdm-theme" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1304214
#ubuntustudio-devel 2014-04-09
<zequence> we're getting lmms 1.0 in, all though it hasn't landed in Debian yet.
<zequence> bug 1291675
<ubottu> bug 1291675 in lmms (Ubuntu) "[FFe] LMMS 1.0.0" [Wishlist,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1291675
<Noskcaj> zequence, Are you going to use 1.0 or 0.9.92?
<zequence> Noskcaj: It's practically 1.0 :). I can only vouch for what I've tested, and that version was ok for me.
<zequence> (0.9.92)
<Noskcaj> ok
#ubuntustudio-devel 2014-04-10
<Mirv> hi, I'm looking at bug #1304214 - since it's a theme change, it only affects docs, right? and since it's a ubuntu studio docs, are you handling studio's docs too in practice ie. can I just get "ack" from someone amongst you who is working on the studio's docs in general?
<ubottu> bug 1304214 in ubuntustudio-lightdm-theme (Ubuntu) "[UIFe] New default wp for ubuntustudio-lightdm-theme" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1304214
<Mirv> the normal UIFe process is to get an ack from translations and docs teams, but I feel this's a bit special case
<Noskcaj> zequence^
<elfy> zequence: I'm not sure how 'much' bug 1284635 will affect you, but we've decided not to ship it while it's as broken as it is for us
<ubottu> bug 1284635 in ibus (Ubuntu Trusty) "Keyboard layout changes after login" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1284635
<Mirv> ...and since it's a lightdm change, I guess there only needs to be general understanding where could lightdm screenshots lurk of Ubuntu Studio 14.04
<Noskcaj> Mirv, It's either zequence or OvenWerk1 that will be able to answer your question, i'm not sure they're around
<Mirv> yeah, there's time, I'll just make some preparations meanwhile and emailed ubuntu-doc mailing list
<Mirv> debdiff looks correct, the new background is there in ubuntustudio-wallpapers
<Mirv> I'll also take a look on the LMMS 1.0.0 + patches thingy
<zequence> Mirv: I do both release and docs, so makes things simple for me :)
<Mirv> zequence: ok, I'll take that as "UIFe granted"! :D
<zequence> Mirv: Yep. Thanks.
<Mirv> zequence: teema sponsoroitu
<zequence> Mirv: Kiitos!
<cub> elfy, zequence, about  bug 1284635, I have set myself as affected as it has shown up on every test run I've done. My main laptop now is running 14.04 and the bug is there and a bit annoying.
<ubottu> bug 1284635 in ibus (Ubuntu Trusty) "Keyboard layout changes after login" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1284635
<Mirv> would there be some people ready for a) testing my LMMS build from ppa:timo-jyrinki/ppa  b) discuss the git/bzr/etc source repositories of it
<Mirv> ok b) can be ignored, I finally got it and verified the git master <-> bzr <-> packaging delta
<Mirv> so I'd just need testing
<Mirv> ok I commented on bug #1291675 too, hopefully LMMS will get testing. the packaging is a bit of a mess, but now it shouldn't be too much messier than what it already is. the 1.0.0 rework by israel anyhow at least brings cleaner debian/rules etc.
<ubottu> bug 1291675 in lmms (Ubuntu) "[FFe] LMMS 1.0.0" [Wishlist,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1291675
<Mirv> zequence: ^ you should probably find my PPA's package identical to what you tested before, but I'd like a quick smoke-testing since it was a bit complicated to make the packaging work.
<zequence> Mirv: I'll give it a try within the hour.
<Mirv> thanks. I did try it, but I've never used it :)
<zequence> Mirv: I don't much use it myself either, but I tested the core stuff - audio settings, making some music and selecting some plugins. All worked fine for me.
<Mirv> thanks. I need to quit piloting now. you'd need to get a friendly core-dev to upload it and follow #ubuntu-devel where I just mentioned it.
<Mirv> my only worry is that the packaging is not very clean lintian wise, even though it wasnt't that before either
<Mirv> (...or a MOTU, of course!)
<zequence> Mirv: Thanks. I'll try to get someone to upload it :)
<len-1404> Looks good. The icons in the menu are fixed I see. The background looks great.
<len-1404> Time to install
<len-1404> pitivi is already in? Thats fast.
<len-1404> I like the updates to the slide show. (I may have already commented on that)
<len-1404> It would be nice to preconfigure qjackctl to not complain about pulse still running when it stops jack. I am not sure where to do that though.
<len-1404> Anyway... reboot
#ubuntustudio-devel 2014-04-11
<len-1404> qjackctl no longer seems to remember last window positions.
<len-1404> Quite annoying. Used to be The first time started qjackctl would go to screen centre then if I moved it to a convenient corner it would always start in the same place.
<len-1404> Now, I have the qjackctl systray icon turned on. Click on it once the controller vanishes. Click again it comes back... but in the centre of the screen.
<len-1404> But stopping the whole app and restarting works.
<len-1404> Ah, window position gets saved at application termination.
<len-1404> Turning the compositor off makes some of the systray icons go away
<len-1404> There is a space for them and clicking on that space works. Turning compositor back on makes the space vanish too.
<len-1404> I am guessing this is still part of the switch to gnome/gtk 3 stuff.
<len-1404> I am still not happy with latency. It is not as good for me as it has been. I will have to play with things.
<len-1404> nother reboot
<OvenWerk1> Kernel oops showed up a again.
<stochastic> :(
<OvenWerk1> It was fine on the first boot, but showed up on the second
<OvenWerk1> I seem to have two systray clocks too
<OvenWerk1> There is a systray icon that is blank to do with charactor mapping.
<OvenWerk1> This is aside from the keyboard language icon that works.
<OvenWerk1> zequence: ^^^ lots of rambling, off to bed now.
<zequence> OvenWerk1: Good night. 
<zequence> Time for me to get up :)
<zequence> lmms 1.0 is awaiting approval
<zequence> As for the XFCE bugs, I've seen some stuff waiting to be sponsored. Let's hope that gets sorted out
<zequence> I had no volume control earlier
<zequence> Only a fix for xfce4-xkb-plugin and xfburn waiting to be uploaded
<zequence> my email sorter is failing, since the ssl certificate is not good :(
<Mirv> did some more fixes to the lmms branch, but my shlibs foo is poor
<Mirv> now it's technically speaking correct, if just the handling of the shlibs issue is alright
<Mirv> no more lintian errors
<OvenWerk1> zequence: it looks possible the kernel oops is related to the gpu. Will do some testing, but it seem to happen right after unblanking screen.
<zequence> OvenWerk1: Any chance you could test with another driver, or another GPU?
<zequence> OvenWerk1: Please file a bug report anyhow
<OvenWerk1> The bug report is there and active.
<OvenWerk1> I want to let the screen time out and see if it hits again.
<OvenWerk1>  I want to see if it goes away with the open driver too.
<OvenWerk1> time to pick up my son, back later.
<zequence> OvenWerk1: I'll be going to sleep soon. Catch you latr :)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2014-04-12
<OvenWerk1> zequence: running things for a while now (almost 24 hours).
<OvenWerk1> The kernel oops just happens at boot. (login?) but I keep getting new bug windows unless I rm the file it creates in /var/crash/ And it creates a new one for each boot and they all just sit there. So when I first login I keep getting these bug screens... but there has only been the one.
<OvenWerk1> Jack is actually pretty stable. It runs really well for a while and then gets a number of xruns all at once meaning there is something I can shut off that will fix that. (PA-jack bridge might help too)
<OvenWerk1> Happens at login.
<OvenWerk1> zequence: switched from nvidia to open gpu driver... no more kernel oops
<OvenWerk1> latency seems more in line with what I have seen on this machine before too. nvidio driver seems to have stopped LMMS from being installed. This may have to do with the wine stuff having crossed dependancies. (32 bit ISO)
<holstein> its too bad.. the pulse dbus is reallly nice for doing what it does.. but, its too complex
<holstein> there was always a way to do it from alsa, and that was too complex as well..
<zequence> The only complex part is setting pulse to use the jack output
<holstein> nah.. its all too complex for a normal user
<holstein> jack.. the whole thing.. really even installing an OS ;)
<holstein> folks buy a mac, then install protools or whatever. these days they dont even touch installation media.. its a lot that we have to expect of them to get running
<zequence> I think the biggest problem is we have three kinds of jack
<holstein> im not saying i have an answer.. i think falk's KXstudio thing where jack is just running is an interesting way
<zequence> If there was only one, it would be much easier
<holstein> zequence: lol.. that too :)
<zequence> I'll be looking into making that a reality for Ubuntu Studio too. I'll SRU ubuntustudio-controls with an option to have jack be started by default
<zequence> there are tons of stuff that need to be worked out though
<holstein> as long as i can find the disable button :)
<zequence> It'll be a toggle - but having jack on all the time isn't going to bother anyone
<holstein> i think its a nice solve, in most cases
<holstein> zequence: let me know if there is something to test
<holstein> having a way to have it fail, and break, and restart.. should be quite helpful
<zequence> there are tons of things we could do to improve the situation. We haven't done much to do that so far
<zequence> My long term goal for these changes will be 16.04. At least I know I will have time to complete things until then
<holstein> personally, i lean toward adobe being able to provice jack support ;)
<holstein> but, thats not constructive.. just honest
<holstein> provide*
<zequence> pulseaudio needs to be improved too. If jack grabs a card, it should disappear from pulseaudio settings
<zequence> And, if pulseaudio was set to use that card when starting jack, it should automatically connect to jack
<zequence> My idea is I start some discussions on LAD about this. I know there are some folks who do jack/PA integration code
<zequence> the module needs to be improved. It's way too CPU hungry
<holstein> agreed
<holstein> and, any of it can be changed, and break any part of it, and the parts dont/cant care
<holstein> its not like jack or pulse care if jack or pulse work with it
<OvenWerk1> holstein: I think jack could benefit from having a "default" input and output pair.
<OvenWerk1> The client that just wants to put sound out should be able to do that. Right now, if my audio out is 9 and 10 for left and right there would be no sound.
<OvenWerk1> (9/10 is my s/pdif lines)
<OvenWerk1> Jack should have some way of turning unused lines off and renumbering/naming it's hw ports so that all the clients see these names
<OvenWerk1> In my case it would be nice to have inputs 1-12 be 9,10,1,2,3,4,11,12 with 5-8 not showing at all for example.
<OvenWerk1> In fact 11-12 should be renamed monitor rather than system.
<OvenWerk1> Having jack run all the time is not a bad idea, it would be nice if it could generate a set of alsa ports that look like a device and set it default the way pulse does. That would make things way simpler.
<OvenWerk1> The thing is there are two use cases, audio work and desktop work. In audio work latency matters and it is at these lower latencies that the PA-jack bridge has problems with xruns and cpu use. A systray button that has a dropdown with latency settings (desktop, mixing, live sound or at least desktop and time values)would make sense.
<OvenWerk1> Jack can change latencies on the fly.
<OvenWerk1> The only problem with changing latencies on the fly is knowing what the lowest latency a card can handle. WE could make 64/3 minimum, but many people would like less (mine will work down to 16/2).
<OvenWerk1> We could disable the PA-jack bridge below certain latencies (512/2).
<OvenWerk1> PA running with no output does not take any cpu to worry about.
<OvenWerk1> I have tried all of these things manually and know it is possible.
<OvenWerk1> I do not know what ardour does if latency gets changed while it is running though :)
<OvenWerk1> Ardour does not seem to care if latency changes while it is playing, there are no dropouts... maybe a slight audible delay when going to a higher latency.
<OvenWerk1> I would not want to do this while recording or playing normally, but it is good to know it will not make things crash. I was using patchage to change latency on the fly.
<OvenWerk1> I confirm that the xfce monitor unility works fine with two monitors. Unfortunately, even with the open video driver, two monitors gives the kernel oops it had gotten rid of :P
<OvenWerk1> Anyway, we should be able to remove the ARandR application now.
<zequence> OvenWerk1: inputs and outputs of the device are of course handled by the ALSA interface. Have you ever looked at those?
<zequence> pulseaudio has it's own way of filtering those, according to a more desktop style logic
<zequence> OvenWerk1: For instance, /usr/share/alsa/cards/ICE1712.conf
<zequence> Seems lmms was just uploaded
<zequence> We need to do a last minute fix concerning bluetooth, in our seeds, and update our metas. Finally, rebuild our ISO
<zequence> Only after both lmms and the bluetooth stuff is fixed can we get our release candidate. I'll try to get that done tomorrow
<zequence> OvenWerk1: You find any problems with the current ISO otherwise?
<zequence> Starting to get late to make any more changes before release
<zequence> I have a feeling that there may be a few problems with the final release.
<OvenWerk1> zequence: I will try again with todays ISO. The only thing I am seeing is that it appears that lmms will not install if the closed nvidia drivers are being used. I will check for that.
<OvenWerk1> This would only effect the 32bit ISO
<OvenWerk1> Having two clocks in the top panel is a bit odd. The right one allows setting events. The left one only allows seeing a calendar.
<OvenWerk1> I can get rid of the one I want to keep, but not the one I wish to be rid of.
<OvenWerk1> dual monitors work a bit funny. The right one happens to be mon-0 and the left one mon-1. I have set mon-1 as primary, but somethings still end up showing on mon-0.
 * OvenWerk1 is going to do yet another install.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2014-04-13
<OvenWerk1> Install complete. LMMS is missing even though it was selected to install.
<OvenWerk1> no kernel oops so far.
<OvenWerk1> LMMS-common gets installed but not lmms.
<OvenWerk1> trying to install lmms gets nvidia-libopencl1-304 to be removed so that ocl-icd-libopencl1 can be installed.
<OvenWerk1> Sounds like a depends (replaces?) problem.
<OvenWerk1> I think if I go to the open video driver and then back I may be able to do it.
<OvenWerk1> Yuck! Ok, it is possible to run nvidia driver with lmms installed, but there are issues :)
<OvenWerk1> On a dual screen monitor set to side by side I can only place windows up to about one and a half screens.
<OvenWerk1> I can only set them side by side using the xrandr utilities, but not the nvidia utilities.
<OvenWerk1> I would be interested to know if this is true on the 64bit version too... 
<OvenWerk1> May be an idea to see if the 32bit version of lmms can be packaged without wine support (VST).
<Mirv> just visiting to say yay, the lmms got sponsored :)
<zequence> Mirv: Thanks for all the work you put into that. I'm sure many will be delighted to use v1.0
<Mirv> no problem, and I'm sure about that too
<OvenWerk1> Mirv: Yup, it updated into studio just fine. I can make noise with it, but I don't have a keyboard plugged in. I normally record audio so I am not the greatest tester for it. Thank you for the work on it.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2015-04-07
<srp> hey people
<srp> not sure this is the right place to ask
<srp> I'm currently running DreamStudio (based on Ubuntu 12.04)
<srp> and lately have been running into regular crashes
<srp> Since DreamStudio is no longer updated, I'm considering UbuntuStudio as a replacement for a fresh install
<srp> most of the software in the bundle are already my long-term acquaintances... 
<srp> however, I have a partitioned hard drive (system in /dev/sda1 and home in /dev/sda5)
<srp> any special instructions before I take the leap?
<OvenWerks> srp: I shouldn't think so. Install on sda1 and mount sda5 on home. You may wish to move your own home directory to another name till the system is set up, then delete the one created at install and move your's back. You may have to chown your own directory again if the new system gives you a different user number than your old one.
<OvenWerks> You would select the "Something else" install option and don't format sda5 whatever you do :)
<srp> OvenWerks, thanks. How exactly do I move it to another name? 
<srp> just mv /home /somewhereelse?
<OvenWerks> srp: you can't move home as the system will create another. I meant mv /home/user /home/user.bac or something.
<OvenWerks> Do you have more than one user?
<srp> sorry I left without warning
<srp> OvenWerks, no, just one
<srp> I see what you mean now
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-04-11
<zequence> Ah, still need to fix the lightdm theme :)
<krytarik> zequence: Does that include dropping the duplicate LightDM config in there?
<zequence> Which one are you referring to?
<krytarik> The general one.
<zequence> krytarik: You are referring to /usr/share/ubuntustudio/lightdm/lightm.donf?
<zequence> Yes, I was looking at dropping any unneeded files
<zequence> Though, if they aren't being used, it's not critical
<zequence> Right now, all we need is for the theming to work. Nothing else
<krytarik> Well, that one overrides the one in -default-settings currently.
<krytarik> And it's outdated.
<zequence> As said, I'm only worried about the theming right now
<zequence> IF you know a bug of some kind, please report it, and fix it
<zequence> Then I want to get back to doing other things. This is getting t
<zequence> ..too time consuming for me right now
<zequence> Wow, the computer didn't even boot now. Lovely
<zequence> krytarik: Do you know where to set the default wallpaper for the ubiquity installer (when doing installatiion directly)?
<zequence> I don't seem to remember where
<madeinkobaia> zequence: I sent you my proposition for the 1604 default wallpaper
<madeinkobaia> sakrecoer : I sent it to you too of course.
<zequence> madeinkobaia: Hi. Taking a loog
<zequence> krytarik: FOund it. It's in /bin/ubiquity-dm
<zequence> madeinkobaia: I just uploaded mine and sakrecoers version a few moments ago. Your proposal does not seem like your best work, so I would suggest you to be more involved for the next cycles, specifically the next LTS, which is in two years
<zequence> Both me and sakrecoer are quite fond of your work in the past
<zequence> madeinkobaia: Your textlogo will be included in the plymouth theme of the next release
<zequence> I merely replaced the old CoF and textlogo with new ones
<zequence> Also, a spinning CoF this time
<zequence> sakrecoer: We'll also need a new slideshow for the ubiquity installer, just remembered
<zequence> sakrecoer: Would you be interested in doing that?
<zequence> sakrecoer: If so, get the branch lp:ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu
<zequence> You just need to replace the images with new ones, and perhaps refine the text somehow. Nothing radical at this point
<zequence> Well, at least the desktop image
<zequence> Never mind, I'll do it, come to think of it
<zequence> I start by adding a bug, since I can't upload it myself
<madeinkobaia> zequence: Did you take this decision alone ?
<zequence> madeinkobaia: Pretty much, yes
<zequence> Well, the default wallpaper has been worked on for a couple of weeks by sakrecoer and myself, of course
<madeinkobaia> zequence : It's not a thing to do
<zequence> madeinkobaia: We are many weeks behind the actual schedule, so there is no time for anything else, sorry
<zequence> As I said, please join us and be more active in the future
<zequence> You have had two years for this one
<zequence> ..to be blunt
<madeinkobaia> zequence: I told you Monday, so today. You said to me, ok. Please don't try now to argue and talking about the past or anything else. I really don't appreciate how you manage things.
<zequence> madeinkobaia: I've been extremely clear to you through out this whole episode.
<zequence> Considering that you have not shown yourself much here for the past two years, I have been exremely forthcoming to you
<madeinkobaia> zequence: Please.
<zequence> No more
<zequence> So, please, let me do some work now
<zequence> I will be stepping down as project lead in a couple of weeks. From that moment on, you will need to talk with sakrecoer and other Art team members about the future
<madeinkobaia> zequence: That's a good thing.
<zequence> Yep, it will be big relief
<zequence> What would really have been smart to do is add the software link to favorites
<zequence> cub: Hello
<cub> Hi zequence 
<cub> hectic last weeks?
<zequence> cub: Quit so. Don't think we've ever been this late
<cub> ouch..I feel bad for not having any time to pitch in
<zequence> Wish I would have organized everything in good time
<zequence> Much is the fault of us not having a new default wallpaper until very late
<zequence> sakrecoer: and krytarik have been helping out quite a lot
<cub> but that's only one piece? or does it affect more things?
<cub> yeah, I kept track in the logs. Not all tech discussions but on a whole
<zequence> Only now are we using a link for default wallpaper, which means in the future we won't need to change settings in five different packages when we change
<cub> aha
<cub> I tried to install on a virtualbox but no go. I blame the host (windows 7)
<zequence> Final Freeze is setting in any moment now
<zequence> But, there are still a few packages of ours that need to be uploaded
<cub> ooh
<zequence> So, maybe tomorrow we have our Release Candidate
<cub> but is the wallpaper settled now?
<zequence> Yep
<cub> which one?
<zequence> You can try out all the latest packages at ppa:ubuntustudio-dev/autobuild
<zequence> Me and sakrecoer fixed one up
<zequence> I didn't like any of the wallpapers from the competition. Ours is ok. madeinkobaia came in today with one suggestion, but I didn't feel it was up to par
<zequence> Don't think he put much time into it
<zequence> I'm sure if he had started early, it would have been different
<cub> right, I saw some different versions of the one you and sakrecoer worked on but not final one
<zequence> The final one has a shiny CoF in the middle
<zequence> It's a little cosmic, I would say
<zequence> cub: Fixing the old slideshow currently :)
<cub> Will my screenshots survive? :D
<zequence> cub: Think I redid some of those actually the last time, but I'm only changing the desktop and the USC image
<zequence> Trying to remember how to do previewing
<cub> I think I did the audio and video shots
<cub> so they'll make it. yay
<zequence> Bug 1569005
<ubottu> bug 1569005 in ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu (Ubuntu) "New ubiquity slideshow for Ubuntu Studio [UI Freeze Exception]" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1569005
<zequence> bug 1568981
<ubottu> bug 1568981 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "new Ubuntu Studio wallpaper for ubiquity installer [UI FREEZE EXCEPTION]" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1568981
<zequence> ubuntu-release team subscribed to both
<zequence> I've uploaded -default-settings, -menu, -look, -icon-theme and -lightdm-theme today
<zequence> Waiting to be accepted
<zequence> Changes in -look are mainly new wallpaper and new plymouth theme, but there are some fixes there too
<zequence> New CoF icon. Only a minor difference in the icon theme. Should look ok.
<zequence> In the future, changing wallpaper can be done in ubuntustudio-look. But, infortunately, it needs to be a png :D
<zequence> Thanks, krytarik and sakrecoer for all your work these last days
<zequence> Ross and OvenWerks have instead worked on fixing bugs, specifically the qjackctl bug
<zequence> ..aside from theming and package fixing, I mean
<zequence> (instead of theming and package fixing)
<zequence> Anyway
<zequence> coffee time
<sakrecoer> \o/
<sakrecoer> is there another test-session, like for the betas?
<sakrecoer> can't wait to test the isht out of it anyways! :)
<sakrecoer> and yeah, thank you too zequence! ross! OvenWerks! krytarik!
<sakrecoer> anyways, its maybe too early to celebrate, but a lil highfive here abd there can't hurt :)
<flocculant> sakrecoer: if you mean a milestone - rc is this week - more or less rolling constant testing till release day 
<sakrecoer> flocculant: excellent! thank you too :)
<flocculant> welcome :)
<zequence> All of our packages were accepted now, except -lightdm-theme
<zequence> So, those should be included with the next ISO build
<sakrecoer> :)
<zequence> apparently the .bzr dir is included when building the lightdm theme
<zequence> Why, I do not know
<zequence> bzr-buildpackage did a better job than dpkg-buildpackge in this case
<zequence> In many ways I'm but a packaging noob
<zequence> Might be smarter to use the bzr building tools for our stuff. I should look more into that
<zequence> (bzr-buildpackage uses the debian building tools, so it just does more thant dpkg-buildpackage)
<zequence> -lightdm-theme is in as well
<zequence> Now just the ubiquity stuff, and if there are no bugs (of course there are), that will be the last uploads for this cycle
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-04-12
<sakrecoer> i'm going nut with websearching: where is the IRC backlog page? :D
<cfhowlett> you mean logs??
<sakrecoer> yes!
<sakrecoer> i searched with both terms...
<cfhowlett> !logs
<ubottu> Official channel logs can be found at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/ . LoCo channels are now logged there too. Meeting logs from meetingology at http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/
<sakrecoer> haha! :) <3 thank tou cfhowlett !
<cfhowlett> happy2help! sakrecoer 
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-04-13
<zequence> zsyncing the ISO now. Still no change to ubiquity
<zequence> Seems to install, and seems like everything is where it's supposed to be
<zequence> Just realized the slideshow was still saying we include shotwell, so removed that
<zequence> I'm not going to bother with this, so if someone else would like to fix this, be my guest. I'm about done with this cycle now.
<zequence> Bug 1569697
<ubottu> bug 1569697 in ubuntustudio-lightdm-theme (Ubuntu) "ubuntustudio lightdm background is black before first login" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1569697
<cub> What was the channel for off topic?
<sakrecoer> cub: #ubuntustudio-offtopic
<sakrecoer> my tired eyes red 'zequencing the iso now'
<sakrecoer> i think kryten had a fix but i also know he is busy elsewhere atm... i'll see if i can reach out and let him radiocontrol me :D
<sakrecoer> re: bug 1569697
<ubottu> bug 1569697 in ubuntustudio-lightdm-theme (Ubuntu) "ubuntustudio lightdm background is black before first login" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1569697
<sakrecoer> i've got a few very insightfull hints from krytarik about the lightdm issues, but he lacks time to assist me in doing it.. i understand about 77% of what needs to be done... anyone want to join me in squashing the bug? :)
<krytarik> sakrecoer: Huh?  I said it's not about *my* time - doing it right now.
<sakrecoer> oh.. sorry, i missunderstood... not sure i grasp the difference.. however, i didn't mean to put a wrongfull light on you...
<OvenWerks> checking new alsa-utils package. Some new QT5 stuff too.
<OvenWerks> zequence: despite your email, the list of updates in the past few days is quite long :)
<OvenWerks> though I do expect our changes will be low.
<zequence> OvenWerks: Right, there may be some changes to the base stuff
<zequence> But, nothing in particular to the multimedia stuff, I would think, other than subsystems and pulseaudio
<zequence> OvenWerks: Did the alsa-utils thing get fixed?
<OvenWerks> zequence: not sure yet, have to reboot again. The /run/alsa directory is still not there, but there is not a message about alsa in dmesg this time.
<OvenWerks> zequence: the plymouth theme is much nicer. But on boot it goes by so fast as not to be seen :)
<OvenWerks> zequence: alsa-utils is still not working. /run/alsa still does not exist.
<OvenWerks> zequence: but then it did not exist in older versions than x either. 
<OvenWerks> zequence: alsa re/store has changed signifcantly from 14.04.
<OvenWerks> even from early 16.04
<OvenWerks> will try by manually creating /run/alsa.
<OvenWerks> zequence: tried manually creating /run/alsa... vanishes on reboot.
<sakrecoer> was about time i tried the gnome-software center :D completly passed me by somehow..
<sakrecoer> (that would have been a good candidate for "favourites")
<sakrecoer> good thing we kept greybird, the gnome window doesn't look to foreign next to it
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer: why would you put a software installer in favourites?
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer: it gets high use... (well once use to install synaptic) right after install... after which it never gets used again.
<zequence> Software should have been put in favorites. We could still do it, though it's not exactly a critical bugfix
<OvenWerks> favourites should only have applications people use almost every time they use the computer
<zequence> Well, software is likely one of those
<zequence> ..not counting nerds like us
<OvenWerks> not after the first few days.
<zequence> People don't even know it's there
<zequence> Two things I'm missing from favorites, just to simplify things for people - software and system settings
<OvenWerks> zequence: there is truth in that. It's item lable in the desktp file doesn't help.
<OvenWerks> settings has it's own icon already.
<zequence> Also, qjackctl has some merit being there
<zequence> Yep, but it's not self evident for non XFCE people
<OvenWerks> qjckctl +1
<zequence> I even didn't know right away where the logoff button was, not being used to Windows style
<zequence> Used to having that in the top right corner with the system functions
<OvenWerks> certainly settings in favourites would mirror the system appliactions menu.
<OvenWerks> I think xubuntu has software in settings.
<sakrecoer> OvenWerks: settings is always visible
<sakrecoer> it's got super-favourite status :)
<zequence> I wouldnt' care too much about duplicating things. Better it is really simple to find the important stuff
<sakrecoer> :) yeah :) i was reflecting about software because it took we a while to find it first, until i searched...
<sakrecoer> it's got a new name appart from having a new icon
<sakrecoer> s/we/me
<zequence> Don't think a regular user appreciates the amount of difficulty a new user may have
<OvenWerks> zequence: I was wrong, xuxbuntu has software in favourites.
<OvenWerks> So we can follow that.
<zequence> So, I would put those three there, actually. 1) qjackctl 2) software 3) system settings
<sakrecoer> font manager? :p
<zequence> Is that something one would use every day?
<zequence> qjackctl is a really fundamental tool. You always start with that
<OvenWerks> zequence: it is one right click to remove something from favourites after one gets tired of them :)
<sakrecoer> if you work with graphcis, and have as many fonts as we distribute, you would use it a lot... but i'm not convinced it qualifies, so i'd say it doesn't
<zequence> Also, should we disable the hover thing? Not sure how Xubuntu does that
<OvenWerks> zequence: I like hover because it means less clicks to get somewhere.
<sakrecoer> xubuntu has the hover off last time i checked... i for one would like it removed
<OvenWerks> I think I added that. feel free to take it out.
<OvenWerks> hover is sort fo second best to using the applications menu.
<OvenWerks> The applications menu is faster than whisker. But if people like whisker that is fine too.
<zequence> Ok, so I'll prepare two bug reports, just to be pedantic about the two changes that we are making
<zequence> So, anyone disagree with adding the three favorites I mentioned?
<sakrecoer> i'm in favour
<OvenWerks> as discussed. my likes are not important I agree it will help newbys
 * OvenWerks will not be using whisker as his daily application starter.
<sakrecoer> your likes _are_ important OvenWerks :)
<sakrecoer> but i get your point
<zequence> Heck, I don't even use Ubuntu Studio as my daily system. But, I do use it in my studio
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer: to a point, but ease of use for first time users is more important.
<zequence> First Bug 1570051
<ubottu> bug 1570051 in ubuntustudio-default-settings (Ubuntu) "whisker menu is missing some favorites" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1570051
<sakrecoer> i use ubuntustudio all day everyday :3
<sakrecoer> i also happen to be the newbiest of us all :D
<zequence> I'm a Debian/Gnome person myself
<zequence> I do rather use Ubuntu Studio in the studio. It comes alive there
<sakrecoer> nice diaporama fix zequence. maybe we could have made a new screenshot of "software" but it would also imply changing the text.. and it works as is..
<OvenWerks> My personal desktop is US, but there is a server, two xubuntus and a kubuntu as well. (plus a raspian)
<sakrecoer> ah, servers and rasps :p they work alone, if not they are badily configured :D
<zequence> OvenWerks: What do you have on your server? ubuntu?
<OvenWerks> zequence: yes. 14.04
<zequence> I actually use Ubuntu for my Steam machine as well, but for servers, only Debian
<sakrecoer> my servers also run ubuntu
<sakrecoer> main one is still 12.04 tho. the 14.04 one is collecting dust on a shelf atm
<OvenWerks> the server is headless and cli only.
<zequence> I have one rasbian too
<sakrecoer> i put osmc on my my rasp
<zequence> Bug 1570052
<ubottu> bug 1570052 in ubuntustudio-default-settings (Ubuntu) "Hover setting in whisker menu was not intended and should be removed" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1570052
<OvenWerks> the RPi is going to be the brain for my HW control surface.
<sakrecoer> nice OvenWerks ! :)
<zequence> Oh, please confirm both bugs, just to be sure
<OvenWerks> done, both confirmed
<zequence> Thanks
<OvenWerks> zequence: I will also add it to the iso tracker.
<OvenWerks> zequence: I have added it to post install on the QA site so it will show in the "bugs to watch for" area.
<zequence> OvenWerks: Ok, thanks.
<zequence> I'll be making the changes right away and uploading. With a little luck, they will have passed through before tomorrows build
<OvenWerks> good.
<zequence> If anyone would like to take a look at the lightdm bug, pleas do
<sakrecoer> it seems kryten is fixing the lightdm bug
<zequence> Oh, nice
<sakrecoer> yes! <3
<zequence> krytarik: Is that true? Cause, then I'll wait with uploading until you're done
 * OvenWerks didn't notice something wrong with lightdm.
<sakrecoer> OvenWerks: no background on first boot
<sakrecoer> also the icon-theme is missing..
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer: Ah, no default bg then.
<sakrecoer> i should probably file a bug for that one...? because i think krytarik is fixing that too..
<zequence> sakrecoer: That would be good, yeas
<OvenWerks> I just wish it span screens though :)
<sakrecoer> ok, going at it :)
<zequence> sakrecoer: When I do these bug reports, I just go to http://launchpad.net/ubuntustudio and report it there. Then, I repurpose it for the package in question
<zequence> If it were a linux bug, I would use the terminal, in comparison, to gather all the info about the system. Also
<sakrecoer> ok, i'll do like that then :)
<zequence> If I need a sponsor, I'm more particular with the bug reports
<zequence> In this case, it's good to have bug reports so that the archive admin can see that I'm not uploading junk
<sakrecoer> zequence: by "repurposing"... what do you mean? Changing the "Affects" field?
<zequence> sakrecoer: Exactly
<zequence> sakrecoer: Put the package name under "Package" and save
<zequence> or, next to, to be more precise
<sakrecoer> lightdm gives me loads of results ...
<sakrecoer> but it is ubuntustudio-lightdm-theme right?
<sakrecoer> or is it ubuntustudio-default-settings ?
<zequence> sakrecoer: It's the theme, but, we seem to have somewhat duplicate stuff in -default-settings
<zequence> So, I would use ubuntustudio-lightdm-theme in this case. If there are fixes in both packages, the bug will be mentioned in both
<sakrecoer> ok thanks! :)
<zequence> sakrecoer: Right, you could add more packages, if you want. But, I'm not sure if both are involved
<sakrecoer> Bug #1570056
<ubottu> bug 1570056 in ubuntustudio-lightdm-theme (Ubuntu) "Icon-theme missing in lightdm" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1570056
<zequence> A worse problem, btw. Just noticed. The keyboard layout in lightdm is in English for me
<sakrecoer> ooops..
<zequence> We've had that in the past, but we fixed it by removing a package
<zequence> I'll report that too. I wouldn't know right away how to fix it though
<sakrecoer> zequence: you didn't change lightdm theme to numix it appears? i'm with it anyways, since we keep the greybird windows.
<sakrecoer> i'm *fine with it
<zequence> sakrecoer: No, I didn't. Next time maybe we can work out those details a little sooner. Felt like it wasn't worth stressing this time
<zequence> Actually, I'll need to double check the keyboard layout
<sakrecoer> i like it better likeit is now. i mean, i was out for "consistency" anyways :D
<sakrecoer> doesn't make sense to have dark dialog boxes and bright app windows in my world :D better bright windows, period :)
<zequence> Yep, the keyboard layout in my newly installed system is US English
<zequence> Let's try to fix our own dark theme for next release, or at least before the next LTS
<zequence> One thing I would like to get rolling is backports, so I will probably do that as a hobby this summer.
<zequence> (though, I need to check what snappy means in the infrastructure of things first)
<sakrecoer> zequence, i tried to create a new user with a password with characters that are different between swedish and english and i had no problem
<sakrecoer> ah, but i see your chat now :)
<zequence> sakrecoer: You should see the keyboard layout at the top bar
<zequence> ..of the login window
<zequence> Unless you changed it, it should be US English after a fresh install
<zequence> If you haven't had that in an older installation, this may be due to a recent change
<sakrecoer> i have it in swedish
<zequence> We had this problem before. I'll need to look more into it, but don't have time more today.
<zequence> Big 1570060
<zequence> Bug 1570060
<ubottu> bug 1570060 in lightdm (Ubuntu) "Wrong keyboard layout with Ubuntu Studio" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1570060
<sakrecoer> but i picked swedish in the live-iso menu
<sakrecoer> i realized that if i picked english, i had to set it appropriately when selecting the keyboard layout in the install dialogue when installing within a test-session
<zequence> This is only in the login window. Not in the desktop session
<sakrecoer> yes, yes
<sakrecoer> it is in swedish here Sv_se
<zequence> So, could be it is quite a recent change that does this then
<zequence> Both my recent installs have this problem
<sakrecoer> but like i said, if you pick english in the live-boot menu, you have to actively chose swedish layout in the install dialogue after
<zequence> Yes, but that part works either way - the desktop gets the right keyboard layout
<sakrecoer> i think it is in the order of input panels in the install dialogue
<sakrecoer> no, it didn't 
<zequence> I did that way too, for one of my installations. Didn't make any difference
<sakrecoer> i rebooted, because i had first picked english, and i couldn't type "@" in a terminal
<zequence> You're talking about the live ISO now. Not the installation
<zequence> If you want to confirm, do a new installation today to find out
<sakrecoer> the isntallation from live-boot
<zequence> You're talking about the keyboard layout during installation, not after it
<zequence> Anyway, I have some work to do now. bbl
<sakrecoer> zequence: once installed, i have it in swedish
<sakrecoer> but the hole system is in swedish
<zequence> sakrecoer: Just do an install today to confirm, ok?
<zequence> Otherwise, you are talking about something else
<sakrecoer> i just did!
<zequence> sakrecoer: You installed today, and the keyboard layout in the login window is in Swedish?
<zequence> sakrecoer: Is your language also in Swedish? (mine isn't)
<zequence> I have two recent installs with the same problem. One of them I did just a few hours ago
<zequence> sakrecoer: Instead of rebooting next time, just go into system settings and change the keyboard layout there. Doing it in the boot menu will have no extra effect
<sakrecoer> i installed it 20 minutes ago
<sakrecoer> chosing swedish did affect my live-session, and then at install swedsih and swedish layout were already selected
<zequence> the live session is irrelevant
<sakrecoer> yes i know
<zequence> sakrecoer: So, not only your keyboard layout is Swedish, but also the launguage setting, is that right?
<sakrecoer> yes
<zequence> Ok, so try using English language and Swedish keyboard layout
<zequence> That at least gives a clue to the problem
<zequence> ..when installing, that is
<sakrecoer> ok i will try that
<zequence> Probably whatever is selecting the keyboard layout is doing so based on language instead of keyboard layout
<krytarik> zequence_, sakrecoer_: Done.
<zequence_> krytarik: Ok, thanks. Will check it out
<zequence> krytarik: Seems like you really cleaned up that package
<zequence> krytarik: What does the option "keyboard=onboard" do?
<krytarik> Yep, quite a bit. \o/
<krytarik> Link the accessibility thingy to the already installed Onboard.
<zequence> Ah, right. Accessibility.
<zequence> Ok, going to upload both packages now.
<zequence> Some kind of problem with the changelog. 
<zequence> krytarik: Did you test build it?
<zequence> krytarik: The other one was -default-settings
<krytarik> Nope, didn't - no idea what that could be.
<zequence> krytarik: April. On my Debian system, it needs to be abbreviated toApr
<zequence> "Apr", that is
<krytarik> Oh crap.
<zequence> I'll fix it.
<krytarik> Let me fix that.
<zequence> I might as well, since I'm already doing it
<zequence> Yep, that was it :)
<krytarik> Nah, I want the history right.
<zequence> Ok, be my guest then
<zequence> krytarik: What are you using to edit the changelog. Not dch?
<krytarik> Yeah, doing it manually still. :P
<zequence> krytarik: Did you push yet?
<krytarik> zequence: Yep, just. :P
<krytarik> And sorry for the noise. :3
<zequence> krytarik: No problem. But, I would probably start using dch, just to make my life easier :)
<krytarik> Yeah, I figure as well - every time I fiddle with that line manually. :P
<zequence> krytarik: Hmm, you overwrote the bzr branch. I suppose it is legit to do sometimes, but it means the one who pulls must do the same
<zequence> Not exactly the like the linux kernel repo with huge amounts of activity, but could potentially cause some headache
<krytarik> Yeah, I know. :3
<sakrecoer_> \o/
<sakrecoer_> :'3
<sakrecoer_> what is "noise" in this context?
<krytarik> sakrecoer_: That I had to fix the "April" one - and on top of that '--overwrite'. :P
<sakrecoer_> ah, like side-effects, collateral damage to one's time? :D
<krytarik> And possibly one's inbox, yes. :P
<sakrecoer_> aah of course! collateral damage thing didn't quite sound right in the situation..
<sakrecoer_> zsynch is giving me a 7.1% diff since i synched earlier this evening :D is it already uploaded and build?
<zequence> sakrecoer_: usually builds at around 20.00
<zequence> Or, before. I guess, UTC time. Not sure
<zequence> There are rebuilds sometimes too
<zequence> ..but not today
<sakrecoer> get that weird bug again with the "download updates while installing" geryed out. Says "no internet available" but im writing this from that machine..
<sakrecoer> bug 1561716
<ubottu> bug 1561716 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) ""Download updates while installing Ubuntu Studio" greyed out in installation dialogue" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1561716
<sakrecoer> hehe, earlier today failed to see shotwell is still in the slides... i guess the slides aren't uploaded yet, zequence ?
<sakrecoer> zequence: confirming the keyboard layout bug. it set US english on the login screen.
<sakrecoer> system is in english, and i specifically set the layout to swedish. once logged in its all good, but still, the password being hidden and all...
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-04-14
<DalekSec> krytarik: `date -R`
<krytarik> Hah, yes that too.
<sakrecoer> thinking about posting a litle reminder about eminenet release, and add a little call for testing on our social media. would that be a good thing?
<sakrecoer> or do we prefer having the test-calls within the devel channels?
<zequence> sakrecoer: We have announced testings on our social sites before
<sakrecoer> zequence: ok, i'll cook some lines and pastebinit first. i feel its important that it be clear that the test-release is _not_ the release.
<zequence> That Thomas guy on the mail list doesn't seem to be used to mail lists. He sent an answer to both me an Jimmy directly, thinking that that was the practice
<zequence> ..and maybe thought the mail list is just for information
<zequence> sakrecoer: ^
<zequence> I redirected him to the IRC channels, as well as encouraging him to keep using the mail list for replies
<sakrecoer> :)
<sakrecoer> i remember having that problem with gmails webclient: replybto list was a separate button. but that was years ago..
<zequence> Oh, yes. Chaning email clients can be disastrous
<sakrecoer> *reply to list
<zequence> changing*
<zequence> We should both be using autospell bots
<sakrecoer> *hehe*
<sakrecoer> yes :D anyways, glad you helped him out. got a good vibe from his text-tone :)
<krytarik> I notice that ~ubuntustudio-dev isn't subscribed to bug mail of -lightdm-theme and -icon-theme (https://bugs.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/+packagebugs) - and the first isn't even listed here for some reason: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/+maintained-packages
<krytarik> Also, who wants to have the of including this in the changelog?: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntustudio-menu/trunk/revision/109
<krytarik> + favor
<OvenWerks> krytarik: For menu changes, I don't think I would list each one so much as just listing menu updates or something like that.
<krytarik> OvenWerks: That one fixed LP bug 1549732 though - and the comment generated due to that doesn't reflect it.
<ubottu> Error: Could not gather data from Launchpad for bug #1549732 (https://launchpad.net/bugs/1549732). The error has been logged
<krytarik> Not that it'd matter now for the bug report still, but nevertheless.
<OvenWerks> Ah, I didn't realize that.
<OvenWerks> I thought you were talking about changes in release notes.
<krytarik> Ah no, just 'd/changelog' of it.
<krytarik> And yes, I noticed afterwards that it might be mistaken as such.
<OvenWerks> I don't know if it is best to change the changelog or just manually set the bug to fixed (fix released) With package name and commit number.
<OvenWerks> Fixing the changelog requires another upload.
<OvenWerks> on the other hand, it would be ok to change the change log and not upload till some other change is made.
<OvenWerks> but that would only set it to fix commited.
<krytarik> As I indicated, it was already set to 'Fix Released', just without relevant changelog entry: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/imagemagick/+bug/1549732/comments/10 - and yes, I'd not want another upload just for that either.
<ubottu> Error: Could not gather data from Launchpad for bug #1549732 (https://launchpad.net/bugs/1549732). The error has been logged
<krytarik> Actually nvm, but that version (0.24) was never actually released, it seems - so we might have to fix that still: https://launchpadlibrarian.net/253311451/ubuntustudio-menu_0.23_0.25.diff.gz
<krytarik> Ohai Rosco2!  Regarding your comment on LP bug 1561776: "I wish there was a won't fix status like in Debian" - actually there is. :)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1561776 in ubuntustudio-meta (Ubuntu) "ubuntustudio-desktop is missing synaptic in 16.04" [Undecided,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1561776
<Rosco2> krytarik: Hi. Back from a short holiday and ready to work on the release :-) 
<krytarik> \o/
<Rosco2> Unfortunately only bug control can do the "won't fix" status
<krytarik> Different than in Debian?
<Rosco2> Yes - anyone can set any status in debian
<Rosco2> causes some ping pong :-)
<krytarik> Ah, ok - wouldn't know. :P
<krytarik> That is, I did see that at least I can't select it there.
<Rosco2> https://www.debian.org/Bugs/server-control
<Rosco2> It's one of the tags you can add
<krytarik> I mean on LP - see it in the list, but can't choose it.
<Rosco2> Ah - yes
<Rosco2> That is what I meant about bug contrrol
<Rosco2> Have to be a member of the Bug Control Team
<Rosco2> We can prbably select it for our own packages (for the upstream bugs)
<krytarik> Indeed - just checked that on LP bug 454082.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 454082 in ubuntustudio-controls (Ubuntu) "ubuntustudio-controls fail to write NICE settings" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/454082
<autumna> hi, first time ubuntu studio tester here, so apologies if this is a silly question. If there is a bug in one of the display (known on XFCE end) but there is an alternative package that can give that functionality. is it worth reporting or best to just ignore? Thanks. :)
<zequence> autumna: If there is a bug, it should be reported, period.
<zequence> That's how developers may become aware of them
<autumna> ok thanks. just checking.
<zequence> Oops. Seems like the selector for lightdm greeter is for language, and not keyboard. Going to check
<zequence> Yep. I just assumed it was for keyboard layout. Never seen a drop down for language before
<Rosco2> zequence: just doing a fresh install now to check it out
<Rosco2> normally clicking through so fast - I forget what it looks like
<zequence> Rosco2: I disabled that bug already, after double checking. I didn't even test the keyboard. Just looked at the menu and figured it was for keyboard layout
<zequence> Now I did, of course
<zequence> The only thing missing from the ISO which will build today is ubiquity artwork. Still waiting for two branches to get merged
<zequence> Other than that, think everythings kind of wrapped up now
<Rosco2> Yeah - thanks for the announcement too
<Rosco2> Will create a Release Note page on the wiki over the weekend ready for input from everyone 
<zequence> Rosco2: Yeah, I knew you would probably do an announcement later, or I thought maybe you were waiting for a milestone to appear on the ISO testing tracker. Either way, now felt like a good time to encourage testers to grab an ISO and get a feel for it.
<Rosco2> Won't hurt to send another one out once the tracker is set up
<zequence> Rosco2: Not at all
<sakrecoer> i subscribed ~ubuntstudio-dev to ubuntustudio-icon-theme and ubuntustudio-lightdm-theme bug repports
<sakrecoer> Rosco2 and zequence i will echo the call for ISO testing on social media tomorrow. :)
<sakrecoer> btw zequence, is the diaporama during install in liveboot uploaded now?? i look forward to see it, which branch is it in again?
<zequence> sakrecoer: dioprama?
<zequence> The ubiquity changes are not merged yet
<zequence> ubiquity is the installer
<sakrecoer> zequence: thats the name, i wasn't sure anymore :)
<sakrecoer> i have to log off, g'night y'all!
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-04-15
<sakrecoer> it's probably too late, but i remmbered one thing i miss from the older desktop: a button to hide everything from the desktop.
<sakrecoer> maybe it is somewhere?
<sakrecoer> it used to be in the hiding panel i think...
<sakrecoer> oh, it is available in "add ne items" of course :) good enough for me :)
<sakrecoer> anyone else has got the default wallpaper displayed twice in settings=>desktop ? i have it once as ubuntustudio-default.png and once as 1604_ghostcolor.png...
<sakrecoer> but i just tried to install xubuntu-wallpaper and wonder if it might be due to that....?
<sakrecoer> sudo apt-get purge xubuntu-wallpaper did remove hte package allright, but the pictures are still available in settings=>desktop... maybe its expected?
<zequence> sakrecoer: The default wallpaper will always be displayed twice from now on, because of the link
<zequence> ..unless we start putting the default wallpaper somewhere else, like /usr/share/ubuntustudio/default-wallpaper.png
<zequence> ..and link from there
<autumna> 2 questions
<autumna> 1) is openvpn something that is supposed to be part of the default package set? (I can't remember if 14.04 came with it) and is there a list of features somewhere. 
<autumna> 2) are bugs meant to be filed under ubuntu studio or ubuntu? ubuntu-bug seems to redirect everything to the main ubuntu project so I am a bit confused. :) 
<zequence> autumna: Only if you do not know which package to report agains should you use ubuntustudo
<zequence> Otherwise, always report against the package
<zequence> Ubuntu Studio is a part of the whole. We share the infrastructure with all the other flavors. Including bug management
<zequence> Bugs are usually fixed by the package maintainer
<zequence> autumna: The DE setup is synced with Xubuntu, so whatever we have that comes with the -desktop package you should talk about with Xubuntu devs
<zequence> We just sync and forget at this point. There are plans to go desktop agnostic in the future. And since no one has been interested in maintaining our own DE setup, this is how we do things right now
<zequence> Well, bugs can be fixed by anyone. And, most packages in universe are actually directly imported from Debian, which means there is no Ubuntu maintainer for them
<zequence> By "Ubuntu", I mean any flavor of Ubuntu
<zequence> In the case of nvidia drivers, I think Canonical packages those
<autumna> I see. the reason I asked is because there are issues with a certain package, but workarounds involve using another package instead. (e.g. default display setting has no mirroring option for 2 displays. workaround is simply using ARandR) so. I wasn't sure if this was something you needed to know or not.
<zequence> Not much they can do with the source code, but if it's a packaging problem, they could be able to solve it. OTherwise, it's in the hands of Nvidia
<zequence> autumna: 2 displays with which drivers?
<zequence> We useds to keep ARandR since the default screen settings did not do everything, but it should be good enough for that sort of thing now
<autumna> I honestly don't remember at which stage I tried it. https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xfce4-settings/+bug/1497806 is the bug I am referring to.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1497806 in xfce4-settings "Mirrored display broken in Xubuntu" [Medium,Confirmed]
<autumna> (in case of the brightness bug (I am not certain what is wrong with that still) I'll just redirect it to xubuntu project then. thanks for explaining. 
<zequence> autumna: The nvidia problem is for Canonical to solve. It's proprietary code. No one has access to the source.
<zequence> autumna: But, maybe it can be done in packaging. I don't know
<zequence> autumna: There's a bit of a difference if the bug is because of proprietary software. 1) people tend not to care to fix it 2) even if they wanted to, they can't most often, because it's closed source
<zequence> So, make sure first that the bug is because of nvidia or not
<zequence> Mirroring displays with nvidia drivers is done with a nvidia gui tool usually
<autumna> I am not sure how to proceed with the brightness setup bug, to pinpoint the problem. (if it is nvidia side or something that can be fixed on this side) as for mirroring displays. brb to check if the problem persists with nouveau. 
<zequence> autumna: The nvidia bug is out of your hands until a maintainer appears with comments, or someone else with ideas on how to fix it
<zequence> autumna: The important thing is that the bug is now pointed towards the correct package
<zequence> autumna: Are you using the nvidia control panel? If not, that is what you should be using with nvidia drivers
<autumna> I don't normally. I am currently using 14.04 as my main system, and use ArandR for everything so I didn't think of using nvidia control panel for it tbh
<autumna> logging out to switch to the iso to check these. brb.
<sakrecoer> zequence: putting it /us/share/ubuntustudio/default-walpaper.png is a good idea. the way it is now, is a minor thing, but i can't help anticipate someone thinking they will do us good by repporting the double, effectively waisting there time (and potentialy ours if we respond)
<sakrecoer> but again, it really is a minor thing. i'll put it in the list of things to look at for 16.10
<OvenWerks> autumna: the xfce "Display" setting applet should be able to do Mirror. If it doesn't it should be fixed.
<OvenWerks> arandr does not auto save and the save it does do is not restored at login.
<autumna> just finished checking. mirroring problem in xfce is independent from driver and is related to xfce. on nvidia, you can set it with nvidia controls, in nouveau there is no way to do it other than installing ARanR. but yeah. it is a known bug on xfce side. :(
<OvenWerks> basically Disply uses the same commands as arandr. Both are guis for xrandr (which we do ship)
<zequence> OvenWerks: Not entirely sure that works as well with nvidia drivers though
<zequence> nouveau, yes, but not nvidia
<autumna> zequence: xrandr? I never had issues with it when using it with nvidia. 
<OvenWerks> zequence: I understand that part, but Display and arandr "should" work the same.
<OvenWerks> mirror is default with two displays (the most useless mode in my opinion)
<OvenWerks>  :)
<autumna> it looks to me (as a user) that there seems to be a design decision. display doesn't allow screens overlapping each other. Arandr does. (so it is not that there is really a mirroring, but when you overlap, it ends up being the same result, or better, in cases where screen resolutions differ)
<OvenWerks> autumna: Ah, that is different yes.
<OvenWerks> arandr allows setting exact position of screens
<OvenWerks> Display is just left of, right of, top of, below
<OvenWerks> That is not a bug with Display it is as you say, a design decision
<autumna> *nods* sorry I guess I shouldn't have been calling it mirroring, now that i think of it. 
<autumna> well.. independently there is a "mirror" button on Display that is grayed out. :)
<OvenWerks> I don't have that, mirror always works here, but the video driver may override xrandr and so it is greyed out.
 * OvenWerks has an Intel GPU
<autumna> its disabled both with nouveau and nvidia.
<OvenWerks> autumna: interesting. I will take a look at my son's machine later when he has gone to school.
<OvenWerks> autumna: free placement of screens is not that common in display utiliies.
<autumna> overwerks: awesome. I am going to add nouveau and nvidia to the packages of existing bug interim. :)
<autumna> overwerks: it is not, but it is useful. (I am mostly using 2-screen for my cintiq, so non-warped overlap is great). 
 * OvenWerks is goning to reboot to confirm alsa-utils fix works... reboot
<OvenWerks> autumna: yes when I was using a net book with extra monitor it was useful to keep the mouse from jumping :)
<zequence> There's a slight chance ubiquity won't be updated with our changes before release. No activity there for many days
<zequence> And, we are in Final Freeze now
<autumna> when is the distros being released again? 
<autumna> (I have to say, US 16.04 is looking amazing and thank you) 
<sakrecoer> autumna: thursday next week :) thank YOU for stopping by and involving yourself!
<OvenWerks> zequence: alsa-utils fix confirmed.
<sakrecoer> OvenWerks: \o/
<autumna> :)
<OvenWerks> autumna: how are you setting the screen brightness? (keyboard, applet?) I can't find any way of changing my brightness.
 * OvenWerks has an old xt/at keyboard.
<autumna> new power applet (new for me ;) 16.04) has a slider, but before then.. I install xbacklight
<autumna> and put 2 custom application icons to toolbar that does xbacklight -dec 10   xbacklight -inc 10 (or you can make a drop down by - set 10, set 20, set 30 etc) 
<autumna> you can add a default to start menu too to begin at a certain brightness at login, beyond that.. I haven't found a neat way to set up brightness based on power settings if default power settings doesn't work. 
<OvenWerks> My power manager has only time values no brightness.
<OvenWerks> $ xbacklight
<OvenWerks> No outputs have backlight property
<autumna> oh... yeah my 14.04  install has the same problem I do that, and also map some keys (keyboard shortcuts doesn't work either unfortunately) 
<OvenWerks> Huh, ok I guess I don't see the brightness slider because my GPU doesn't support it
<OvenWerks> This is 16.04
<autumna> try doing xbacklight -get ?
<OvenWerks> No outputs have backlight property
<autumna> *blinks*
<OvenWerks> could be my cheap monitors too.
<autumna> you'd think even cheapest monitor would have it.. 
<autumna> sorry no clue
<OvenWerks> no complaints either. This is a desktop and so I can change brightness on the monitor anyway.
<autumna> aaaah
<OvenWerks> this is much more important on a laptop when used in dim venues.
<OvenWerks> (and where SW is the only way of controling brightness)
<autumna> the latter I think is the key point.
<OvenWerks> :)
<autumna> full bright screen at night is painful, especially when your main occupation involves looking at graphics. (also terrible on battery)
<autumna> :)
<OvenWerks> Also using for recording in a dim place where one needs their "night vision".
<autumna> overwerks: true! 
<autumna> ok xorg-video-nouveau is primary package for nouveau drivers right?
<OvenWerks> might be xserver-xorg-video-nouveau
<OvenWerks> (thats about all that shows up in synaptic)
<autumna> ok, thanks :) off to induce potential kernel panic in my install. brb in a few minutes. 
<sakrecoer> i noticed that the powerindicator has a slider now for light dimming....
<sakrecoer> re: laptop in dim venues..
<sakrecoer> ^ OvenWerks 
<sakrecoer> very handy thing...
<autumna> it does! (reboot)
 * sakrecoer hides, need to read better what you write about before i interact...
<OvenWerks> zequence: with respect to the message in the list "lot of things wrong" (with Ardour) I suspect user error.
<zequence> OvenWerks: I have the same feeling. But, he's free to report any bugs, of course
<autumna> I'll happy to give it a look, later today. (although I am not very familiar with ardour. *prefers lmms and rosegarden*
<autumna1> testing
<autumna1> (ok works)
<zequence> autumna1: Hard to know exactly what did not work for Grant though.
<zequence> I use ardour myself in the studio. Not sure if it is the most recent version, haven't updated for a couple of months, but I think it is
<zequence> Worst that has happened so far were some random crashes in a project. After I did a "save ..as", it want a way.
<zequence> I've only used lv2 plugins. And, only recorded audio, so that is what I know works.
<OvenWerks> I have at least recorded a MIDI track as well.
<OvenWerks> The version of calf is much better behaved.
<autumna1> vsts is one place I would/will check
<zequence> Never used vst's on Linux. Never found a reason to
<autumna1> I don't use them much anymore, but haven't found a good way to do microtuning of SF2s yet that doesn't involve one. 
<OvenWerks> There are some comercial Linux VSTs that do not come as LV2 anymore.
<zequence> OvenWerks: Which did before?
<OvenWerks> http://www.overtonedsp.co.uk/
<OvenWerks> I think the dev felt it was one less version to keep up... same code windows/linux
<zequence> But, those are native VST's right?
<zequence> ..for Linux
<zequence> I got the Harrison Mixbus and a few LinuxDSP plugs a couple of years ago, just to try that out. Wasn't totally happy with the plugins.
<OvenWerks> yes, but just a second compile, not a rewrite
<zequence> ok
<zequence> Ah, but overtonedsp is probably what I remember as linuxdsp
<zequence> Think that has broadened towards Windows/Mac more recently
<OvenWerks> yes, I was thinking linuxdsp too, same guy.
<OvenWerks> Pianoteq is probably the very best piano plugin right now, also VST only for Linux.
<autumna1> zequence would you mind if I used your email to thomas as a basis for a short blurb on how to submit a bug? The pages you linked are great as to how to do proper iso test, but is not exactly beginner friendly for a bug reporting user who has never done it before. :) 
<zequence> autumna1: YOu mean, should he contact me per email? Not sure what you mean.
<autumna1> haha no. I meant can I write down something that can be later stuck into to the common questions here: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudio etc
<zequence> autumna1: Oh, now I understand. Sure, that is quite fine.
<autumna1> cool
<zequence> autumna1: This is an old page https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudio/ReportingBugs
<zequence> autumna1: If you like, just rewrite it from scratch, and add a link to it somewhere in the help wiki page
<zequence> and, if you have opinions about the help wiki, and its organization, don't be shy. No one has worked on that for quite a while
<autumna1> I can just modify this
<zequence> autumna1: The information on that page is for reporting a bug to the Ubuntu Studio project. That is old. We use ubuntu-bug, but if we don't know which package we can use the launchpad project page instead
<zequence> So, the content in that page could be used for the other alternative.
<autumna1> I am thinking more of a starting point how to for people. 
<autumna1> like for a user it is not clear what belongs to ubuntu studio and what belongs to normal ubuntu. (as you might have seen from me yesterday :) )
<zequence> autumna1: Absolutely. It's a good thing to develop. I can take a look at the page once you have edited it, and give you feedback.
<zequence> We're planning to modify the web site shortly. One thing we could add is clearer support info
<autumna1> *nods*
<autumna1> I'll definitely try to help out at this stage too. 
<autumna1> at that stage*
<zequence> autumna1: Good to know. There's no big rite of passage. Whatever you want to do, as long as it's not crazy, you are free to do it, and we'll give you access to what is needed
<autumna1> thank you. just being cautious to not accidentally step on toes that's all. :)
<zequence> autumna1: Good to avoid breaking things, yes.
<autumna1> okay. apparently there is such a thing as "immutable page". new page it is XD
<zequence> autumna1: Really?
<autumna1> yep
<zequence> Going to check
<zequence> Haven
<autumna1> *laughs*
<zequence> Haven't seen that before among our pages
<zequence> Ah, there seems to be a new system for wiki pages
<zequence> ethernet-pad members and ubuntu memebers
<zequence> ubuntu-etherpad, sorry
<zequence> Long time since I logged in
<autumna1> ah well considering everybody ends up getting an ubuntu-one account at some point for some reason, it makes sense I guess?
<zequence> I'm able to edit, but I logged in as a Ubuntu member
<zequence> autumna1: Think it helps security. ubuntuforums was hacked a while back, and then switched to the unified account thing
<autumna1> aah
<autumna1> ok this is way too complicated (how to get editing access) I'll just focus on writing the doc first offline
<zequence> Unlike Debian, Ubuntu has some additional restrictions on things. Like certain mail lists. You can only post if you have access
<autumna1> *nods*
<zequence> autumna1: Did you try loggin in?
<autumna1> yes I did
<autumna1> well
<autumna1> actually
<autumna1> the question is not if I did log in
<autumna1> the question is what did I login WITH
<zequence> autumna1: ubuntu-etherpad should do it
<autumna1> *blinks
<zequence> Ok, dinner time. bbl
<autumna1> I have an ubuntu-one account that open log-in into the wiki
<sakrecoer> autumna: i used to get locked out from the wiki on a regular basis, until i joined the ether-pad team: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-etherpad
<flocculant> I think that the need to be in the etherpad team is still there to edit wiki 
<autumna> I see. ok
<flocculant> oh
 * flocculant makes note to read further back ... I see zequence said that :p
<flocculant> autumna: just join at the launchpad page - they get approved pretty quickly afaik
<autumna> ok. *does so*
<sakrecoer> i was about to ping you flocculant :)
<flocculant> sakrecoer: no need now :)
<flocculant> well - you did actually ping me :p
<sakrecoer> flocculant: who need wifi? :D
<flocculant> the cat 
<zequence> flocculant, sakrecoer; I was actually going to ask sakrecoer to tell us more about this problem, cause I remember him saying something about becoming an -etherpad member
<zequence> At the time, i had no idea you needed that
<flocculant> zequence: it turned up with the spam problem
<flocculant> afaik it is still a requirement
<flocculant> deters the drive-by page edits I suppose
<flocculant> price to pay always :(
<zequence> Either spam is getting bigger, or Ubuntu is
<flocculant> cycles
<flocculant> they find a way in and use it 
<autumna> my bet is on spam in this case. even when user base increases, documentation isn't what most people go for. 
<zequence> autumna: flocculant gave us some estimation on the amount of spam earlier on the #ubuntustudio-offtopic channel. Please join!
<flocculant> autumna: yup it's just about getting google to see your link I guess 
<flocculant> hardly likely to be anyone reading ubuntu wiki daft enough to do anything with a spam link 
 * autumna understands
<autumna> *mistell
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-04-16
<autumna> recordmydesktop is pretty terrible and buggy. zequence what are you thinking as a potential replacement?
<autumna> ok.. I really need to read more carefully the emails before responding to them. 
<zequence> autumna: I don't remember the name. I was doing some screen recording at my studio and ended up using two different applications. One for the desktop and one for my cam
<zequence> So, I need to go there to check them out. Slight chance one of the applications is not in the archive
<zequence> I was looking for something that was able to record both video and audio without using too much space
<zequence> Finally found a pretty neat solution
<zequence> Think Kazaam is not great with audio
<zequence> Don't remember which setup gave me either no audio, or very out of sync audio
<sakrecoer> i have tried everything i could find for desktop recording... the best i got was kazaam and audacity in pseudo synch
<autumna> oh dear
<autumna> I do wonder if blender has some hidden feature somewhere, because since you know
<autumna> blender does everything
<sakrecoer> what are you looking for autumna ?
<sakrecoer> i'm pretty sure you can do screen casts in blender, but i don't think it allows you to record anything else, if that is what you are looking for?
<autumna> something that can record desktop, preferably with audio. I have an art pieces I want to document before flash completely gets irrevelant. that's the primary need. the rest, is just to maybe make tutorials one day or something (audio isn't necessary for that)
<sakrecoer> aren't there any screencast tools specificaly for firefox?
<autumna> I haven't looked into it to be honest. it is in my todo list
<sakrecoer> hehe... there is ONE.... https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/capture-fox/?src=search
<sakrecoer> "now works in firefox 5 and 6
<sakrecoer> :D
<autumna> that one is 5 years old
<autumna> and not functional
<autumna> :D
<OvenWerks> VLC can record desktop. I could not get audio in though even though the dialog had audio selected.
<autumna> ovenwerks I just ran into that over wikipedia
<autumna> I'll definitely give it a try. 
<autumna> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SimpleScreenRecorder this looks promising
<OvenWerks> Audio in seems to require an alsa device free, so no jack/pa running or alsa loopback and jack.
<OvenWerks> I don't imagine any of the other are different, but recording the desktop would be a lot easier on a dual monitor setup in mirror mode so it only sees one screen
<autumna> no it does allow jack
<autumna> it says it allows jack :)
<autumna> OvenWerks:  this one doesn't allow that? 
<OvenWerks> vlc sees alsa or oss.
<autumna> ohh
<autumna> sorry I skipped to simplescreenrecorder :)
<OvenWerks> vokoscreen?
<autumna> I never actually used vlc for desktop recording so possible. 
<autumna> *googles*
<OvenWerks> Vokoscreen seems to just work. It is set by default for 25fps. Uses the default Pulseaudio device... which in my case is jack_source :)
<autumna> nice
<OvenWerks> It allows window/fullscreen/area selection which means no need to select mirrror for double monitors.
<sakrecoer> OvenWerks: wow!! that one completly passed me by!
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer: it is just a gui on top of ffmpeg/avconv
<OvenWerks> I was looking in our repos for simplescreenrecorder (not there) when I found it.
<autumna> I think simplesoundrecorder might be breaking jack. it is a very new software
<autumna> well... relatively speaking
<autumna> patchage: symbol lookup error: patchage: undefined symbol: JACK_METADATA_PRETTY_NAME
<autumna> does anyone have any idea what this means? 
<sakrecoer> OvenWerks: did you manage to get sound?
<OvenWerks> yes, OOTB
<sakrecoer> OvenWerks: in vokoscreen
<OvenWerks> yes
<sakrecoer> hmm.. i didn't...
<OvenWerks> I used pulse.
<sakrecoer> me too
<OvenWerks> your audio has to be the default audio input
<sakrecoer> yupp...
<OvenWerks> I have all the sound cards turned off, so jack_source is the only input there :)
<sakrecoer> ah, ok... let me try with jack..
<sakrecoer> haha nevermind me :D
<sakrecoer> maybe if i have volume on in the player it will help :D
<OvenWerks> do not use the entry that says "Monitor" because the monitors pulses output rather than input.
<sakrecoer> i actualy ticked both :D
<sakrecoer> and it worked superfine (i was just being dumb)
<sakrecoer> that lil webcam window is very handy also for ego-flattering tutorial :D
<OvenWerks> I din't notice that as I have no webcam plugged in
<OvenWerks> (so it is greyed out)
<OvenWerks> Does it let you position the webcam window?
<sakrecoer> yes! and stays on top :)
<sakrecoer> i can even scale it to 25% tutorial, 75% me :D
<sakrecoer> and stretch it so i look skinny
<sakrecoer> (wrong place for stupid humour, sorry:) )
<sakrecoer> however, its realy great. seems gentle on ressources even...
<autumna> ok simplesoundrecorder does its job well, and seems to be good with framerates, and audio from pulse works. I do need to restart my computer to figure out what happened to my jack through
<autumna> vokoscreen seems to be better through from what you describe. (goes to try that)
<sakrecoer> although, i am running it on 14.04... and there is an indicator in the system tray
<autumna> ok vokoscreen much more options and customizations but audio stuttering
<autumna> with pulse audio sink at least
<autumna> brb to restart system
<sakrecoer> zequence: i got an idea for the feature tour on the website...
<sakrecoer> zequence: i remember i was told by knome that it was possible to direct a subdomain to a different host... why don't we set-up a static website hosted on an ubuntstudio-github account?
<sakrecoer> like feat.ubuntstudio.org
<autumna> simplescreenrecorder, ok it might be that it updated jack not broke it, but the update broke patchage, so bad idea to install it on 14.04. *continues to play around*
<sakrecoer> zequence: that way we could easily fix missed typos and such, while having a fresh layed out feature tour, where we can break the wordpress frame without heavy modules and bothering RT guys...
<OvenWerks> autumna: The error you describe would be one of the few jack1/2 differences. Jack1 has pretty names, but not jack2 and they have not used "weak" linking as they should have. (weak linking allows for features that are in one version and not the other)
<autumna> I see...
<autumna> I am not quite sure at which stage I caused the upgrade
 * OvenWerks is not sure "weaking linking"is quite the right term... weak is right, but not sure the other.
<OvenWerks> Ubuntu studio has had jackd2 for many years.
<autumna> then how did patchage work fine until now?
<autumna> O.o
 * autumna is laughing
<autumna> did 14.04 have it?
<OvenWerks> patchage is fine, though I have had the odd crash with it.
<OvenWerks> autumna: studio 10.04 had jackd2
<OvenWerks> maybe before
<OvenWerks> https://github.com/jackaudio/jackaudio.github.com/wiki/Q_difference_jack1_jack2
<OvenWerks> is the paper on the subject
<OvenWerks> they should have been called jackd and jackdmp
<autumna> *blinks* well patchage just started giving me that error in 14.04 after installing simplescreenrecorder, (assuming it wasn't something else I recently installed that broke it) I don't mind very much just, very confused. *goes to read*
<OvenWerks> you may note that jack1 has a version < 1 and jackd2 has a version less than 2  :)
<OvenWerks> simplescreenreader may be the problem then. file a bug report if you like.
<OvenWerks> There are other applications that use pretty names (jack1 style) and do not crash patchage.
<autumna> I might but I will have to test it on a fresh 14.04 install to reproduce the error. (either way it is not even in the ubuntu repository yet), and try it on 16.04 to see if it breaks anything, if we consider it to add to the repository
<OvenWerks> It won't be there for 16.04 now, maybe 16.10 if it goes fast enough.
<autumna> *nods*
<OvenWerks> but the bug report should be upstream anyway. The dev should fix this as most of the world uses jackd 2
<autumna> yeah, I am not even sure 100% that it was this alone that broke it
<autumna> this is my normal install where things went weird. 
<OvenWerks> My version of vokoscreen did not have choppy audio on it. if you are using a webcam mic or internal laptop mic, you may try changing the pulseaudio default sample rate to 48000... known problem that some mics are 48000 only
<OvenWerks> 48k being the windows standard.
<autumna> I was using the computer audio
<autumna> but let me try that after it
<sakrecoer> works like a charm with jack here!
<sakrecoer> vokoscreen
<sakrecoer> the vokoscreen version shipped in 16.04 has much imporved GUI
<autumna> with jack or jacksource?
<OvenWerks> autumna: If I have both source and monitor selected while playing an MP3 I get audio crackling, but if I just have one or the other it works fine.
<sakrecoer> i ticked both... :D
<OvenWerks> I suspect this is a pulse artifact rather than vocoscreen.
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer: I have a audio player playing an MP3 that may be a different SR than jack.
<sakrecoer> SR?
<OvenWerks> sample rate
<autumna> OvenWerks: it is not cracking as much as stuttering (and probably dropping some frames.
<sakrecoer> i didn't even touch the jack settings. 
<autumna> oh dear. I just crashed ffmpeg with vokoscreen. (this is the 14.04 version through)
<sakrecoer> but in vokoscreen i picked "monitor of JAck sink" and "Jack Source"
<OvenWerks> Ya, just one should sound better
<sakrecoer> i haven't tested with headphones
<OvenWerks> It depends what you are trying to record
<sakrecoer> i was thinking "one might be my mic, other might be outpute of sodtware in pulsesink
<sakrecoer> *output *software
<autumna> OvenWerks: lets say I was pushing it to see performance.
<autumna> :D
<autumna> also one bad side of using the pulseaudio is that the audio level is affected by my computer audio level. which can be a good thing or bad thing.
<autumna> (frankly both of these software are great. it is more nitpicking at this stage)
<OvenWerks> autumna: my setup does not allow PA access to the audio cards levels.
<autumna> OvenWerks: multiple purpose set up: everything from daily use to audio recording
<autumna> :)
<OvenWerks> I think If I wanted to record both the output of a desktop application and my mic at the same time I would take the application audio into jack mix and port it back into pulse for vokoscreen to record.
<OvenWerks> Audacious does have jack out, but as I recall it tries to connect to everything in sight :P
<sakrecoer> OvenWerks: what is the difference between the 2 entries in vokoscreen, except as you said before "one should sound better" ?
<OvenWerks> One records the default source (mic directly) and the other records what pulse is about to send your speaker.
<autumna> vokoscreen has serious audio lag and chopping. newer version might be fixing it but as things stand yeah... (it is a well thought out interface through in uses where performance isn't an issue)
<OvenWerks> So monitor is good to record a desktop application that uses pulse as its output. and the source is good to record mic in.
<sakrecoer> thanks OvenWerks
<sakrecoer> i don't find "jack mix"
<OvenWerks> :)
<sakrecoer> isn't that what you mean when you say "take the application audio into jack mix and port it back into pulse for vokoscreen to record." like just ticking both those options in vokoscreen?
<OvenWerks> the idea was I would _something_ in jack to mix it, like ardour or non-mixer
<sakrecoer> right. of course
<OvenWerks> mixing in jack would be less likely to have PA aritfacts.
<sakrecoer> yeah, also, to have decent voice over you might want to use a decent mic anyway, hence a decent soundcard..
<OvenWerks> idjc is not bad for VO
<OvenWerks> actually an easy mixer would be two jackracks with the right plugins.
<OvenWerks> Carla would work too
<sakrecoer> wouldn't idjc be a bit overkill just for VO?
<OvenWerks> Could be.
<sakrecoer> the mixer isn't particularily nice in it either..
<sakrecoer> which reminds me i havn't checked it in 16.04 yet...
<OvenWerks> There was another one... jackEQ maybe?
<sakrecoer> i used to use idjc quite a lot..
<sakrecoer> but not for mixing, just for radioshows..
<OvenWerks> That is what it is for
<sakrecoer> obviiously mixing 2 channels and a microphone, but not in the audio sense... 
<zequence> sakrecoer: It's no problem adding static pages to the community theme
<zequence> There may even be some nice plugins for creating custom pages
<zequence> ..which I think is probably the simplest of all
<sakrecoer> zequence: ok, by static i mean html, not php..
<sakrecoer> is that possible in wordpress
<sakrecoer> ?
<zequence> sakrecoer: I don't see the upside, tbh
<sakrecoer> stuff like this: http://tfb.basspistol.com
<zequence> It's good to be creative, but the main purpose is spreading information.
<sakrecoer> maybe its possible with wordpress? i'm not very familiar with it. i know it was a real PITA with drupal...
<sakrecoer> i'm purley talking about the feature tour
<zequence> I realize that
<sakrecoer> also, i don't vision something THAT extreme...
<autumna> creating a feature tour is possible with wordpress plugins
<sakrecoer> but i vision something more creative than a straight wordpress frame
<zequence> Like autumna said
<sakrecoer> sweet! 
<zequence> sakrecoer: You can experiment on our staging site if you want
<sakrecoer> i lost the password
<zequence> We can't install plugins ourselves on our main site, but once we know which ones we want, we can create an rt rticket
<sakrecoer> yeah, but then we need to maintain those plugins updated? our will RT take care of that?
<sakrecoer> i mean, wordpress is PHP, not sanitizing it is suicide
<sakrecoer> ok, i read "we caN install plugins ourself" sorry
<sakrecoer> that is what i am talking about.... it is so much work for nothing...
<zequence> The other way around
<zequence> Much easier to maintain
<zequence> That's why peole use WP
<sakrecoer> yes, the news part obviously..
<autumna> sakrecoer: a) there is a LOT of wordpress sites out there. so if we chose a plugin that is well maintained, it is actually more secure. also I am guessing from zequence's comments here (feel free to correct me zequence) that they have a multi-install of wordpress.
<sakrecoer> more secure than html?
<zequence> sakrecoer: Why don't you start by learning some more about WP first, before you want to replace a perfectly good solution
<autumna> so they just make sure the plugin is installed and everybody can enable and disable it at will, and wordpress has options to auto update.
<sakrecoer> i'm not talking about replacing anything
<zequence> sakrecoer: Did you get the code?
<sakrecoer> yes
<sakrecoer> thanks
<sakrecoer> can i install plugins with that code zequence ?
<zequence> The front page could use a custom look, which is hard without either hacking the theme yourself, or installing a plugin
<zequence> sakrecoer: Yes, it's the admin password
<sakrecoer> ok, so i don't need an ftp to add the plugin?
<sakrecoer> nice
<zequence> for http://ubuntustudio.zequence.net, that is
<sakrecoer> yes:)
<zequence> I do some php, so wouldn't be too hard for me to do something custom
<sakrecoer> last time i had a wordpress you would have to upload the plugin to the ftp in order to enable it...
<zequence> sakrecoer: Was that the last decade?
<sakrecoer> acutaly yes :)
<sakrecoer> but i opted for drupal :)
<zequence> Only if the plugin is not in the WP plugin repo
 * autumna has opinions about drupal
<sakrecoer> me too
<sakrecoer> i prefer jekyll
<sakrecoer> jekyll made webdesign fun again, for me that is
<autumna> sakrecoer: I know what you mean, and I do have some issues with wordpress (or rather themes being too clunky) but how does jekyll scale when you have multiple people editing the same pages?
<zequence> Actually, you can upload plugins from the WP interface, I just noticed (when they are not from the WP repo)
<sakrecoer> autumna: that is why i want to keep the wordpress, but let the _feature tour_ be a static html page. a sexy one
<sakrecoer> but hey, it was just a suggestion...
<autumna> sakrecoer: if your main site is wordpress you already have the clunk. what would be the adventage of having a separate site that is in a subdomain? especially with something essential like a feature tour (not a rhetorical question)
<sakrecoer> autumna: also, with github pages, it becomes rather easy to be multiple users publishing to a jekyll site
<sakrecoer> autumna: having a sexy layout, without having clunky sexy-layout plugins to maintain up to date
<autumna> sakrecoer: sakrecoer maintaining well maintained plugins usually only involves clicking a button if that :) 
 * autumna fails at sentence building. 
<sakrecoer> nice, we will still look like everysite using that plugin out there :D
<sakrecoer> but fine, i mean, it is obviously just med who sees an advantage, and it was just a suggestion
<autumna> sakrecoer: but is that a bad thing? this is not an artistic layout, we want things to be easily accessible to people. so sometimes, familiar is not a bad thing.
 * OvenWerks longs for olden days when html always autoformatted to whatever screen size one had...
<autumna> if it is ok with zequence, you can look into creating a jekyll sample site to show everyone if you feel strongly. but do also try out wordpress. I think at this point what is the percentage? 70% of the sites out there is using it? in the end, the question is what is the goal of the website?
<sakrecoer> sure, its not a bad thing. just a bit boring :D also, original, does not equal inaccessible :)
<zequence> sakrecoer: Creating a custom page is pretty simple, so neeed for subdomains
<sakrecoer> yes, that is the way i will go about autumna :) 
<zequence> I could set one up, if I'm reminded later this week
<autumna> the primary job here is to do it in a cost effective way. is original more cost effective then modifying the conventional way, is the solution. or rather does the conventional solution have a big enough flaw that requires the extra effort of an original solution. 
<sakrecoer> zequence: i will remind you :)
<sakrecoer> autumna: cost effective?
<autumna> sakrecoer: is the original solution that we get will be better enough to justify the time spent to create the original solution?
<sakrecoer> if i have to look into sollutions for WP, it will be more costeffective than if i had to look for a plain html sollution...
<sakrecoer> but i guess, i will not be the one who do it :)
<sakrecoer> oh.. that came off upside down
<autumna> sakrecoer: heh yup, but I get what you mean. remember through it is important if it is cost effective for you in this scenario as the creator.
<sakrecoer> if i have to look into it, static html will be more cost effective than investigating plugin options
<sakrecoer> i think the wordpress is very good, the new theme is great and all :) its just the feature tour... i wish it could be more than just a blog page...
<autumna> sakrecoer: but once you make a website it is also about people who will put the content in. if it is a system that is hard to use, people cannot directly contribute, so you will have to do all the moving content into the website people give you, or train others. so that also adds into effectiveness of the system.
<sakrecoer> but i'm sure zequence has a good pair of tricks up his sleeve for that :)
<autumna> I am not saying your option is bad, just trying to put things into context. 
<sakrecoer> autumna: yes, i know, that is why i am ONLY talking about the feature tour. because it soesnt need to be updated more than once every 6 month... (maybe even once every lts)
<autumna> sakrecoer: that is still one of the parts of the site that gets updated most often unless I am mistaken. :)
<zequence> sakrecoer: autumna: in WP, it's possible to add a custom page template, which can be used when creating a new page. The page can have custom CSS, which is the most essential part for the look
<sakrecoer> cool! :) i'll start looking at the options. :)) do you have any idea of any nice custom page plugin zequence ?
<zequence> One problem with WP plugins is that you first need to find one that works, and that may take some time and googling
<zequence> sakrecoer: I would ask knome for advice on that
<zequence> Once you found a plugin, it may have a learning curve
<zequence> But, once you get past that, production is fast
<sakrecoer> yeah, well, i could have a html feature tour finished tomorrow...
<sakrecoer> autumna: the blog roll is what really gets updated..
<zequence> sakrecoer: Ok. Do it.
<zequence> We can see how we implement it later
<sakrecoer> cool! :)
<autumna> (zequence, sakrecoer my favorite rule of thumb is start with ones updated most, and has most users and browse by that, that in my experience cuts the searching by a lot :D.)
<zequence> There are plugins that lets you add page templates. But, not sure how advanced those are
<sakrecoer> autumna: http://www.ubuntustudio.zequence.net that is the main page as designed by the good knome :)
<zequence> Anyway, nighty time here. Catch you all later
<sakrecoer> g'night!
<OvenWerks> o/
<autumna> ah. gnight zequence
<sakrecoer> autumna: the template that is, and it's all experimental yet..
<sakrecoer> i think...
<sakrecoer> i mean, the content is experimental
<sakrecoer> pics and text and so forth
<autumna> sakrecoer: the designer in me has some nitpicks but that is expected. ;) overall this looks good. I'll poke at it over mobile browser tomorrow
<sakrecoer> please do so!! :)
<sakrecoer> and don't be affraid to express your opinions, ideas and whatnots! you will see i can be a bit stubborn at times, but it is often just a sign i'm struggling with understanding what is being comunicated to me :D
<autumna> ... you guys might regret that 
<autumna> *laughs*
<autumna> well though actually I have one comment about this layout really. 
<sakrecoer> ...in the next episode of "ubuntustudio website triangulation"
<sakrecoer> ?
<autumna> (sorry I am trying the right color, and figure out how to use firefox developer tools to tweak it)
<sakrecoer> no, i am sorry :) there is no stress :)
<autumna> no need to be sorry, I got distracted :D
<autumna> I know I left you in a cliff hanger there ;D
<sakrecoer> hmm... where do i find the plugins in WP? i see the ones that are installed, but i find no page to install browse available for install...
<sakrecoer> oh got it :)
<sakrecoer> i'm pretty sure this is a WP, and while it isn't exactly suited for us, i think somehting a but articulated like that would be great...http://olakalnins.com/
<autumna> sakrecoer: https://wordpress.org/plugins/browse/popular/
<sakrecoer> ty :)
<autumna> np
<autumna> https://wordpress.org/plugins/2j-slideshow/screenshots/ some sites use slideshows like this to do their feature tours. but I don't know what you are planning.
<autumna> and as for the layout I would try replacing menu color from #009BF9 to some websafe color around #4485AC and see how it looks. :) 
<sakrecoer> :) i think 009bf9 is pretty sacred...
<sakrecoer> its the "corporated blue" :D
<sakrecoer> coporate* even
<autumna> really? :D well the previous website wasn't using it so I assumed it was a safe feedback ;)
<sakrecoer> which reminds me to link you to these pages: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CategoryUbuntuStudioArtwork
<sakrecoer> yeah, but the CoF (Circle Of Friends) is using it and well, it's the ubuntustudio blue :)
<autumna> I did look at them. also didn't you have a wallpaper contest recently?
<sakrecoer> websafe is a good idea in itself. i donÃ¤t like to exclude places like africa, but i think even over there moste people have more than 216 colors by now..
<autumna> or the exact color then
<sakrecoer> we did have a contest yes :) you shoule be able to see the winning entries if you go into settings=>desktop
<sakrecoer> exact color? you mean #339999? http://www.colorhexa.com/4485ac
<autumna> like that
<autumna> that is the websafe color. not the exact one
<sakrecoer> more like 0099ff maybe :)
<autumna> that's what you currently have yes
<sakrecoer> colors and tastes... :D
<sakrecoer> i think if you want to do something about them, you should try create an entire concept first :)
<sakrecoer> 009bf9 is established and agreed, at this point it won't be changed. but with a good argumentation and a sollid proposal anything can happen
<autumna> I have no problem with the color itself as part of the visual identity. it just shines a bit too much as the menu background in my opinion but you know what. I am not getting into a color argument on my 3rd day here. thanks
<autumna> :D
<sakrecoer> :D
<sakrecoer> the diaporama plugin is a good suggestion tho!
<autumna> I haven't tried that particular one but it seemed to be a pretty flexible one. 
<sakrecoer> yes, i will try install it and see what can be done :)
<autumna> ok. I am off to sleep it is pretty late here. gnight! :)
<sakrecoer> g'night!
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-04-17
<zequence> autumna: sakrecoer: I think what we have agreed on during the process of getting this new theme done for our home page is that it should be dark
<zequence> This time we will be using our own colors to the maximum
<zequence> The blue is the most important. Also used for the links
<zequence> There has been a couple of grey shades defined for artwork in the past, but since they have been used so little, I find we can be more creative with that
<zequence> Also, because I think we could improve it
<zequence> This grey is a little bit wet with blue. I personally like it. But, hard to get the balance just right, so that it works on all sorts of screens
<zequence> If it's too dark, it'll just look black, and if it's too bright, it won't have any depth
<zequence> So, somewhere in this area, I do believe is a good starting point
<zequence> We also have orange and purple as possible colors to use for certain pages
<zequence> blue = audio, orange = graphics, purple = vide (audio/graphics)
<zequence> also, orange and purple are both sort of Ubuntu
<zequence> The exact orange and purple has never been decided fully. But, we have them defined in our current standard
<zequence> I think the fonts and the colors work nicely on the page right now. Just need to work out a few additional things, like what kind of look do we want for the front page?
<zequence> We could do the feature definition there, already
<sakrecoer> zequence: i'll be done with my proposal for feature tour sometime tonight. the good news is i have used exactly those color scheme you describe... unless i did some misstake. u think (hope) you guys will like it..
<zequence> sakrecoer: Nice
<sakrecoer> s/u/i
<autumna> sakrecoer: looking forward to seeing it
<autumna> zequence: its perfectly fine for me. as I said. I have serious nitpicks with design due to background. ;) but the only reason I said anything was because sakrecoer did say I should say my opinion. :) just let me know what needs to be done with the website and I'll be happy to pitch in
<autumna> also I think the gray of the background is perfectly fine
<autumna> due to background -> due to my background.
<zequence> autumna: If you can come up with something better, you are free to share it. Nothing is written in stone, I think.
<zequence> I have no ego whatsoever around the design stuff. I'm only doing it because it needs to be done. No other reason. But, once you are doing it, you want to try to make the correct choices
<autumna> autumna: you mean as a layout, or show different color tweak? I have no desire to change the overall layout, I'd say it looks quite good so far. :))
<zequence> autumna: The WP theme is a theme knome did for all of the Ubuntu community, so it's a theme anyone can use. The default look is very similar to the Ubuntu site
<zequence> There's a dark version, but I've also done some custom CSS to it
<zequence> The things that remain from the original theme are the panel, and the width functionality, though I've changed the max width, I think
<zequence> We are using the theme because it was very practical for us
<zequence> Also, it binds us closer to the whole, which is not bad either
<zequence> The theme should be dark, and represent Ubuntu Studio. That's basically the key things to remember
<zequence> I think we have the basics down now to achieve that
<zequence> The things I'm mostly concerned about now is the look of the front page (being potentially the best place for a feature tour), and the organization fo the other pages
<autumna> zequence: agreed on more modularity and less work. If you want I can make a slightly tweaked version of the theme then and drop it in WP, or I can help with the content. 
<zequence> autumna: I'm using a child theme, but I will need to redo it (there was a big fix since). I'll put up the source on launchpad for anyone to grab
<zequence> *bug fix
<autumna> sounds great. I'll poke when you are done then? in mean time I still owe you guys at least one article on bug reports, and might as well take a look to the main help/support page content to see if there can be any other tweaks to it. 
<zequence> autumna: That would be wonderful
<autumna> great. off to dinner. I'll be back in a couple of hours latest. :)  
<knome> autumna, as a creator of the original theme; please do not modify the main theme to your needs - rather work with a child theme as zequence 
<knome> autumna, if there are obvious bugs in the main theme, i'll happily merge fixes though, and other features can be discussed
<flocculant> Rosco2: just fyi - a rebuild of iso is more or less a dead certainty with at least one ubiquity issue they'll be wanting to fix 
<Rosco2> flocculant: Thanks
<flocculant> and I think when your ubiquity thing gets there - that'll be another
<flocculant> unless it's there when that gets built ofc
<Rosco2> Yeah - I saw zequence ask a couple of times for a favour
<Rosco2> Crossing fingers
<flocculant> :)
<sakrecoer> the feature tour is taking me much longer than i want to admit to do the feature tour :)
<sakrecoer> thinking i's share a bit of the idea before i invest too much in it...
<sakrecoer> http://sakrecoer.com/ubuntustudio/tour/
<sakrecoer> i have another version with funky panels, but it is too much pain to make it responisve
<sakrecoer> the above link still lacks the css-styling for small screens..
<zequence> sakrecoer: Nice work
<zequence> Think we should do it with a lot less text, don't you think? The backgrounds work really nicely
<zequence> I'll try to work out a custom page, perhaps tomorrow. Also make the code for the theming available at LP
<zequence> I would like to try adding that as a first page
<zequence> as the front page, I mean
<zequence> Did you create a new text logo? Looks a lot fatter
<zequence> Or, you changed the one we have, I suppose. Anyway, the overall impression is good.
<sakrecoer> zequence: i just made it out of text... so it is slightly different..
<sakrecoer> the logo..
<sakrecoer> less text is maybe a good idea :)
<sakrecoer> glad it passed the first impression, i'm sure we can fine tune it better. :)
<zequence> I think we should probably do something in between that and what madeinkobaia did. The one madeinkobaia did looks a little thin, especially when small. Like on the staging site
<zequence> The text logo, that is
<sakrecoer> we should probably just add the madeinkobaia one :) i don't why i wasted a lot of time trying to reproduce it in html :D
<sakrecoer> was thinking "serach engine" but it makes no sense, <img> tags have a field for that... :D
<zequence> Everytime I have a loot at the staging site, the text logo bothers me
<zequence> So, I wouldn't mind having a cract at changing it a little
<zequence> The "ubuntu" part is not very smooth in my eyes
<sakrecoer> about the text, i had an idea: we could write a litle resumÃ© for each workflow. and then the icons could be links to the software's actual website...
<zequence> Sure, though the simpler, the better. Someone who has no idea what Ubuntu is, or Ubuntu Studio, or even Linux should get an idea in a matter of seconds
<zequence> So, the first thing you see in each section should be very clear, and the sub info fast to parse
<zequence> We should also have the about part, where we can explain things more throroughly
<zequence> Video tutorials will be the other very important part in making it as quick as possible for people to get an idea what it's about
<zequence> The artwork is important, of course, but secondary to the information they help to communicate
<sakrecoer> i totaly agree :)
<sakrecoer> i don't think we can have video tutorials ready for release, but i think we can come a long way with the website though
<sakrecoer> as for now, i need to get some sleep. will get back on it early tomorrow. :)
<zequence> We don't need to have the website ready for that either. So, no hurry
<sakrecoer> :)
<sakrecoer> anyways, thank for the feedback, and goodnight!
<zequence> sakrecoer: ng
<zequence> gn*
#ubuntustudio-devel 2017-04-10
<eylul> *is here tonight*
<OvenWerks> Good afternoon (just barely)  :)
<eylul> heh. :) 
 * OvenWerks is on his way for lunch with his Yf.
<eylul> enjoy your lunch :) 
#ubuntustudio-devel 2017-04-12
<eylul> Ovenwerks you around?
<OvenWerks> sort of ... more oval I think
<eylul> ok.. what is the final state of controls on 17.04?
<eylul> which version do we have?
<eylul> my plans for testing kind of went sideways, but trying to prepare release notes
<OvenWerks> eylul: one more than last cycle. Almost exactly the same
<eylul> ok
<eylul> so none of the new UI?
<OvenWerks> It also has on the fly cpu goveror changing
<OvenWerks> No new GUI
<eylul> wait..
<OvenWerks> Just one extra check box
<eylul> oh ok..
<OvenWerks> no tabs or anything though
<eylul> so umm "ubuntustudio-controls have now the option to change CPU governor on the fly"
<OvenWerks> Ya, it doesn't stay over boot yet
<eylul> wait you say it isn't the new UI but..
<eylul> from what you say, it is the new UI
<eylul> as in the UI you made
<eylul> (when I say new UI, I mean the glade file that was created after 16.10 release)
<eylul> (not necessarily the details)
<OvenWerks> it does not have the GUI with tabs and groups and stuff just one new checkbox
<OvenWerks> ok yes then
<OvenWerks> It has been tested and works... at least on my machine HW
<eylul> awesome
<OvenWerks> (as in tested in 17.04 beta)
<eylul> *nods*
<eylul> so actually it is 
<OvenWerks> I keep DL the ISO to test... and when I go to write to the drive... I realize I need to DL the next day :P
<eylul> "an experimental version of the ubuntustudio-controls is live"
<eylul> heee
<eylul> :D
<OvenWerks> I don't think that is what we are shipping though
<eylul> we are not?
<OvenWerks> Did we ever get 32 bit to not ship wine?
<eylul> I am not sure...
<eylul> quite frankly I have some opinions on that discussion from ML. Wine is useful to anybody using LMMS and needs to be reliant to windows VSTs, but if it destabilizes the system, it destabilizes it, and that's the end of the story really 
<OvenWerks> ISO has been built two or three times since. A user can add it after the fact... then it is wine and lmms problem not STudio's
<eylul> eh.. true, especially since LMMS can be installed without vst support
<eylul> (and that is more or less what we have on by default)
<eylul> ok so. new version of krita, new controls (unless it got reverted, I am putting it in for now, we can always remove it tomorrow before release) and..
<OvenWerks> I also like having 32 and 64 bit with the same SW on them.
<eylul> "wine was removed from the 32bit ISO"
<eylul> yeah that's a bit weird to remove it from one side and not the other
<OvenWerks> 64bit alreday doesn't have wine
<eylul> but 32bit did?
<OvenWerks> Ya, the VST server for lmms is 32bit only
<eylul> that is separate through, you can install 32bit wine on a 64bit system
<OvenWerks> Not that long ago windows was 32bit only.
<OvenWerks> we do not want a multi arc ISO!
<eylul> I am not THAT young :D
<eylul> hhehehe
<eylul> wait.. did we also do some cleanup at the ubuntustudio-meta? anything there is visible to the userside?
<OvenWerks> Ya, there are now 32bit vst 64bit vst (and hosts too) and to confuse things there is now VST3. LMMS only supports 32 bit VST2
<OvenWerks> I am not sure about the metas
<eylul> well quite honestly..
<eylul> I have yet to come across a vst3 I needed to use. granted, my use of VSTs and LMMS in general is pretty narrow and specific but..
<OvenWerks> on the other hand... who would have made those changes?
<eylul> I know ross was poking at the bugs
<eylul> not sure what happened to them through
<krytarik> eylul: "wine was removed from the 32bit ISO" - that didn't work though.
<OvenWerks> yes there are a lot of 32bit VST2s.
<eylul> Krytarik thanks.. so no changes to wine situation?
<krytarik> Nop.
<eylul> so..
<eylul> umm that goes under known issues... which,...
<eylul> what did wine break exactly?
<eylul> or is anything broken to note in release notes?
<eylul> (also wow, ubuntustudio-graphics is still on proposed. *cringes*, I guess no Krita for this release)
<eylul> wait nvm
<eylul> *is still confused by launchpad*
<krytarik> Hah.
<krytarik> Also, some of these are relevant for us too: http://wiki.xubuntu.org/releases/17.04/release-notes
<eylul> *goes to check
<krytarik> I'll mention we don't have 'sgt-launcher' yet - and given the different target group, I think we shouldn't either.
<eylul> sgt-launcher?
<eylul> (Ok I have no idea which one of these bugs affects us)
<krytarik> It's mentioned in their notes - and irrelevant to us.
<eylul> oh
<eylul> does the installer issue affect us?
<eylul> (assumes most of the general issues do)
<eylul> (outside the puzzles)
<krytarik> Yeah, that's why I specifically mentioned the puzzles thingy.
<eylul> ok
<eylul> Xfce Indicator Plugin: Label missing from "Clear Known Indicators" dialog does this really affect us? we don't use the same themes and icons
<krytarik> Theme not, icons yes, but this is related to the entire button label (including icon) - https://launchpadlibrarian.net/294982464/Screenshot_2016-11-25_20-40-37.png
<eylul> oh
<eylul> I see. ok
<eylul> hmm maybe we should just link to xubuntu and ubuntu bug reports for reference rather than trying to copy paste
<eylul> *does that :D
<krytarik> Yeah, with appropriate notes, wfm.
<eylul> Ubuntustudio shares some of the desktop features with Xubuntu. Please see Xubuntu release notes for additional information. 
<eylul> there
<eylul> it has a link
<eylul> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ZestyZapus/ReleaseNotes/UbuntuStudio
<OvenWerks> I thought we were supposed to have Ardour 5.5
<krytarik> eylul: Fix "==General==" pls.
<krytarik> !info ardour
<ubottu> ardour (source: ardour): the digital audio workstation. In component universe, is optional. Version 1:5.5.0~dfsg-1 (zesty), package size 8495 kB, installed size 33363 kB
<eylul> ok I have access to website for release, although we will need to type something
<eylul> ok while I am here
<eylul> !info Blender
<ubottu> blender (source: blender): Very fast and versatile 3D modeller/renderer. In component universe, is optional. Version 2.78.a+dfsg0-4 (zesty), package size 24285 kB, installed size 84260 kB
<eylul> !info KDEnlive
<ubottu> kdenlive (source: kdenlive): non-linear video editor. In component universe, is optional. Version 4:16.12.3-0ubuntu1 (zesty), package size 1962 kB, installed size 7640 kB
<eylul> !info gimp
<ubottu> gimp (source: gimp): GNU Image Manipulation Program. In component universe, is optional. Version 2.8.20-1 (zesty), package size 3765 kB, installed size 17296 kB
<eylul> !info qJackCtl
<ubottu> qjackctl (source: qjackctl): User interface for controlling the JACK sound server. In component universe, is optional. Version 0.4.2-0ubuntu2 (zesty), package size 446 kB, installed size 1726 kB
<eylul> !info scribus
<ubottu> scribus (source: scribus): Open Source Desktop Page Layout - stable branch. In component universe, is optional. Version 1.4.6+dfsg-4 (zesty), package size 5295 kB, installed size 19995 kB
<eylul> ... wow we need to update scribus
<eylul> !info darktable
<ubottu> Package darktable does not exist in zesty
<eylul> ????
<OvenWerks> Suprise!
<eylul> what on earth?
<eylul> wait.. did we lose Darktable from the repo?
<eylul> !info pitivi
<ubottu> pitivi (source: pitivi): non-linear audio/video editor using GStreamer. In component universe, is optional. Version 0.98-1.1 (zesty), package size 3101 kB, installed size 8760 kB
<eylul> !info inkscape
<ubottu> inkscape (source: inkscape): vector-based drawing program. In component main, is optional. Version 0.92.1-1 (zesty), package size 10578 kB, installed size 89508 kB
<OvenWerks> try darktable with lower case D
<eylul> that's what I did
<eylul> :)
<eylul> hang on
<OvenWerks> http://packages.ubuntu.com/zesty/darktable
<eylul> hmmm..
<eylul> strange ok.. 
<OvenWerks> 64 bit only it says... the only depends for 64 bit are
<krytarik> eylul: And you can drop LP #1550186 there.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1550186 in gfxboot-theme-ubuntu (Ubuntu) "First entry of boot-menu "Try UbuntuStudio without installing" do not get translated into the chosen language" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1550186
<OvenWerks> libc6
<eylul> oh nice
<eylul> *listens to ovenwerks*
<OvenWerks> I can't see why libc6 would be 64bit only though
<eylul> version issue?
<eylul> quite frankly, you are not very likely to be using darktable if you are on 32bit, its actually surprisingly demanding app
<OvenWerks> supports arm64 too.
<OvenWerks> demanding on Arm?
<eylul> demanding for an old computer
<OvenWerks> most are boxes are like 2gram
<OvenWerks> s/are/arm/
<eylul> no I meant if you are using 32bit computer at this point, chances are you are using a pretty old computer, and darktable has a pretty heavy in terms of CPU etc usage. (or it feels like it anyway, not that I benchmarked it or anything)
 * eylul has been doing quite a bit of photography based work lately
<eylul> ok, all fixes to release notes in
<eylul> I am emailing ML to keep ross updated. 
<krytarik> â https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/darktable/2.2.1-3
<eylul> ouch
<eylul> ok let me finish emailing then add this to the release notes..
<eylul> thanks for digging this up
<OvenWerks> Our 64 bit iso has Darktable
<krytarik> Heh, this is linked in the relevant Debian bug report: https://github.com/darktable-org/darktable/blob/master/src/views/view.c#L328-L332
<OvenWerks> displayCAL has a beg screen :P
<krytarik> lol
 * OvenWerks needs a colorimeter first thank you
<krytarik> Also of note: !dt_conf_get_bool("please_let_me_suffer_by_using_32bit_darktable") :P
<eylul> OvenWerks I know
<eylul> :/
<OvenWerks> so darktable should be buildable as 32 bit anyway.
<OvenWerks> The one son who might be interested in Darktable has the 32bit machine :P
<eylul> Ovenwerks: I think the issue is less if it is buildable, and more if it crashes. 
<eylul> awww
<OvenWerks> (the other has kubuntu)
 * eylul has been using KDE on top of ubuntustudio lately.
<eylul> (HiDPI *sighs*)
<OvenWerks> KDE has some "won't fix issues" with window stacking.
<eylul> *nods*
<eylul> well
<OvenWerks> ie dialogs end up under the main program
<eylul> I have been noticing that yes
<OvenWerks> The user thinks the application is frozen
<OvenWerks> kde refuses to reconize standard x11 window stacking commands
<eylul> well xfce is nearly impossible to use without a magnifier
<eylul> otherwise I miss xfce
<OvenWerks> KDE's Audio applet works fine, but I find pavucontrol more straight forward and has more controls
<OvenWerks> Ah, that is a problem then
<eylul> pretty much
<eylul> I mean you can adjust the panel, but no way to scale most of the UI if I remember correctly
<OvenWerks> alt-up_arrow?
<eylul> no I mean.. 
<eylul> without lowering the resolution
<eylul> or zooming in
<OvenWerks> ya, I know.
<OvenWerks> the text is too small
<eylul> *nods*
<eylul> KDE is the closest that gets.
<OvenWerks> well, unity is going away (with mir) so maybe gnome session will get some work.
<eylul> that would be great
<eylul> if it does
<OvenWerks> MS says so. vanilla will have gnome session by 18.04
<eylul> there is a lot I like about KDE but I miss xfce's stability. (I love activities) 
<eylul> yep
<OvenWerks> xfce sort of has that...
<OvenWerks> you can save several sets of settings
<eylul> ok so.. ugh.. "darktable is no longer supported from upstream for 32bit machines, so some instability might occur" (krytarik ovenwerks, this looks good?)
<OvenWerks> eylul: have you tried fvwm?
<krytarik> eylul: Erm, it's just not there to begin with..
<OvenWerks> eylul: we do not have it for 32 bit
<eylul> Ovenwerks: I mostly use activities to autoswitch desktops and timetracker with it. (with KDE it is nicer because you can give names, and disable some stuff you are not using) 
<eylul> oh it was completely removed? 
<OvenWerks> yes, darktable for 32 bit is no longer in the archives
<OvenWerks> The user _could_ DL the src and build I suppose
<eylul> "Darktable is removed from 32bit ISO due to lack of upstream support"
<OvenWerks> but it sounds like a lost cause. Are there any other similar programs we could/do include?
<eylul> there is rawtherapee
<eylul> I never used it, but people do use it
<OvenWerks> we have that
<eylul> *nods*
<eylul> I think darktable needs to stay for 64bit. 
<eylul> even if it is only 64bit
<OvenWerks> ubuntu want to stop support for 32 isos..
<eylul> but yeah there is an - yeah I know
<OvenWerks> I agree.
<eylul> I am not sure I agree with that.
<OvenWerks> some of the better hw for audio is still 32 bit.
<eylul> hw?
<OvenWerks> hardware
<OvenWerks> computers if you like
<OvenWerks> -controls is still the old one.
<eylul> oh
<eylul> I see
<OvenWerks> I guess it hasn't made it out of proposed?
<eylul> old one == ?
<eylul> same thing on yakkety yak? 
<eylul> broken one that is one version ahead?
<krytarik> eylul: Two things regarding the release notes still: 1.) "Zesty Zapus/ReleaseNotes" has to be without space; and 2.) I know this is a common mistake, but "Ubuntustudio" â "Ubuntu Studio"
<OvenWerks> Ya, but... it doesn't ask for sudo
<OvenWerks> so it doesn't work
<OvenWerks> oh hang on I am still in the live session
<OvenWerks> scratch that
 * eylul begins laughing at ovenwerks
 * OvenWerks has to decide whihc partition he should use to install on.
<eylul> Krytarik: done and done
<krytarik> Thanks.
 * OvenWerks still doesn't like whisker or the theme
 * eylul really needs to log off and lie down soon. 
<krytarik> -controls is indeed the old one still though.
<eylul> ok
<eylul> I put a moratorium on the terms "old one" and "new one" when talking about -controls
<eylul> :D
<eylul> there is 3 things out there right now
<eylul> old version (yakkety and older) that nobody touched in ages, lets call it original controls, ovenwerks(1) which is functional, but not much features, ovenwerks(2) which is broken
<eylul> :D
<OvenWerks> ovenwerks(3) no one has seen
<eylul> which one is at the release currently?
 * eylul mockglares at ovenwerks
<OvenWerks> original
<eylul> ok so I am removing that line from release notes
<OvenWerks> but OW1 has been put in proposed and tested and was supposed to have gotten into the repo. Ross would know.
<eylul> ok.
<krytarik> There is nothing in -proposed.
<eylul> *snorts*
<OvenWerks> not sure where I got it from then
<OvenWerks> Ross asked me to test... might be his PPA
 * eylul is doubling over laughing
<OvenWerks> you tickle easy  
<eylul> controls went back and forth one time too many :D
<OvenWerks> Installer still after 5 releases warns of partition size change even when the partition is left the same size :/
<eylul> 2016-10-18 yup it is the old one
<eylul> original one
<eylul> !
<eylul> *cringes*
<eylul> has the bug been documented somewhere?
<OvenWerks> I think so. I don't like opening browsers while installing though
<eylul> :D
<eylul> ok release notes fixed for ubuntustudio-controls. removed that line
<OvenWerks> The image for audio deffinitely has the old ardour.
<krytarik> eylul: Oh wow, you put one space more in there, instead of dropping the one :D - "[[Zesty Zapus/Release Notes]]"
#ubuntustudio-devel 2017-04-13
<OvenWerks> we now have auto mount stuff enabled again.
<eylul> krytarik: *is confused*
<eylul> !Info ardour
<eylul> !info ardour
<ubottu> ardour (source: ardour): the digital audio workstation. In component universe, is optional. Version 1:5.5.0~dfsg-1 (zesty), package size 8495 kB, installed size 33363 kB
<eylul> ovenwerks: what do you mean?
<OvenWerks> the user puts a cd or USB drive in and the desktop opens a file browser of cd player
<eylul> no I get that.. just trying to figure out if this is something that needs to be added to release notes or not
<eylul> :)
<eylul> ok it is 3am and I am not feeling well at all
<eylul> so i am going to call this a night
<eylul> email me, or tag me if further changes are needed (or feel free to edit it)
<eylul> thanks very much ovenwerks and krytarik
<krytarik> Sure, and good night.
<OvenWerks> How do I turn off auto software update?
<OvenWerks> My /boot is full of kernels I don't remember installing.
<OvenWerks> (16.04)
<OvenWerks> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubiquity/+bug/1218702
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1218702 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "ubiquity resizes partition even when not asked to." [High,Triaged]
<OvenWerks> That is the bug for resize when not needed
<OvenWerks> From 13.10  :P
<krytarik> Fix it! :P
<OvenWerks> It _only_ affects people who choose "other" for partition setup. Not a part of the testing proceedure
<OvenWerks> The low latency performance is quite good. Running jack at 16/2 with very few xruns. Even with pulse jacked into it and pulse still connected to my system card as well as jack
<eylul> hi Rosco2
<eylul> Ovenwerks: unfortunately there is an oubliette of bugs I think that are not critical. *has no stones to throw or anything* :D
<Rosco2> Hi eylul:
<Rosco2> Thanks for the release notes. Just added the bug that Len reported on the tracker
<eylul> thanks!
<Rosco2> ANd added some links to launchpad which should make it easier to check versions next time
<eylul> oh? *goes to check*
<eylul> (wait added them where? *is still a bit out of it*)
<eylul> hi bluesabre_
 * Rosco2 quickly fixes his mistake
<Rosco2> Just in the "Current Version of packages" section
<eylul> oh
<eylul> oh subtle but nice!!!!
<eylul> ohhh
<eylul> adds a clarification next to darktable
<bluesabre> Hi eylul 
<eylul> :) 
<OvenWerks> eylul: not sure what that remark means "oubliette" is not in my vocabulary  :(
<eylul> oh sorry..
<eylul> I meant they go to a place where they are forgotten?
<eylul> website updated
<eylul> alright I am off
<eylul> gnight everyone. 
#ubuntustudio-devel 2017-04-14
<OvenWerks> blacklisting... wine and lmms-vst-server ... reading the germinate man page, blacklisting these two will only keep germinate from adding these to the list handed to apt. This is why the blacklisting fails... apt just reads in the recomends.
<OvenWerks> The meta is just a control file with seeds as deps/recomends. Is it possible to to use one of the fields in the control file Conflicts?
<OvenWerks> Of course then a user would have to remove the meta package (should not break anything, but confusing for sure) in order to install wine etc.
<eylul> that's not good...
<eylul> :D
<OvenWerks> eylul: we can make a dummy package that replaces the lmms-vst-server and install that first.
<eylul> ovenwerks: ok.. how would that affect somebody who is trying to actually install lmms-vst-server from the repo?
<OvenWerks> eylul: we may even be able to get away with installing it for the live version only so it is installed and then removed...
<OvenWerks> eylul: when lmms-vst-server was installed it would warn the user it was removing no-vst
<eylul> ohhhh
<OvenWerks> (or lmms-no-vst)
<eylul> I would suggest calling that something different since there is a lmms package for installing... lmms without the vst support (one we should have by default :) )
<eylul> but the idea sounds like a solution? :)
<OvenWerks> The package should probably be called ubuntustudio-no-wine or something like that. The lmms guys might be miffed otherwise.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2017-04-15
<eylul> Ovenwerks: we might have people trying to uninstall it while trying to uninstall lmms or something. :D hehehh
<eylul> I like the idea of ubuntustudio-no-wine etc
<OvenWerks> eylul: the thing is, a dummy package to keep the ISO from having some large package or group of packages can be removed at any time with no harm after installing. Removing it as soon as install is finished would be just fine with me.
<eylul> oh, I initially misunderstood that part.
<eylul> yeah in that case it is a lot less of a problem
<eylul> :)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2018-04-09
<OvenWerks> Just tried ubuntu vanila.... GAAA! It is actually pretty slick as a normal desktop... but trying to use different workspaces and assigning an app to a known workspace is a total fail. There is no menu still :P Again this is fine when almost all of your apps fit in the dock (Studio's don't come close)
<OvenWerks> There seems to be no way of assigning a workspace across both the left and right monitor, so having two windows in the same app on left and right doesn't work... switch to a new workspace and the left changes but the right stays put.
<OvenWerks> That would be ok if there was a way to set each display separately without dragging things around..
<OvenWerks> I couldn't get any sound out of it... no pavucontrol or alsamixer
<OvenWerks> settings is pretty sparce
<ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks: There is an extension to allow fixed workspaces (as opposed to dynamic) that can be installed from extensions.gnome.org, but I'm unaware of any way to assign apps to workspaces unless you drag-and-drop the icon into a workspace from the applications menu or dock/dash. Also, I'm not aware it even supports multiple-monitor workspaces.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2018-04-10
<captain-tux> I haven't catched the question completely and I hope this is not totally unrelated, but Compiz can automatically open programs on predefined workspaces and positions, that's one reason why I've installed it. ;)
<ErichEickmeyer> captain-tux: That's awesome. Compiz works in MATE nearly natively, never tried it in Xfce.
<captain-tux> Yeah, it takes a little fiddling to set it up just right, but I've never had any serious issues with it and the place windows/put functions are really great for moving windows around workspaces and displays.
<ErichEickmeyer> Hmmm... makes another great case for MATE, perhaps with Compiz enabled by default.
<OvenWerks> ErichEickmeyer: I don't mind the dynamic workspaces so much. Just adding a worspace as I need it makes sense. However, I would like to be able to call both monitors part of the workspace rather than each monitor a separate workspace.
<OvenWerks> So for example, I have the Ardour edit screen on my left monitor and the mixer on the right.... then every time I select one of the two screens, they should show as editor left and mixer right even though I have something else on the right before choosing.
<OvenWerks> I should not have to set two screens... or select the mixer first, move it to the right, then select the editor. That is three steps to do something that happens often and in xfce is one step.
<OvenWerks> What would be really handy, would be a button on the right hand screen (or both screens really) that says grab my mate (mate being the left screen that completes what is on the right)
<OvenWerks> However, I don't see that happening :) so, the next best thing would be a setting in displays that says treat my two displays as one big display (which is what xfce really does).
<OvenWerks> I think that the devs would think that is a step backwards (I sort of agree for some uses), but there are a number of uses where it still makes sense.
<OvenWerks> I could probably set it up as one display with some CLI tool (xrandr? hmm might not be wayland friendly) but the display setup only allows: single monitor, mirror or double but not connected or single connected.
<ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks: Ugh... wayland. Talking to the guys at Canonical, they have several good reasons why they stayed with xorg this release cycle. Wayland needs a lot more improvement before it can become mainstream.
<OvenWerks> Ah, so xrandr would probably work
<OvenWerks> ErichEickmeyer: so from what is said above, can I assume that vannila is no longer using unity?
<OvenWerks> Or was unity always based on the same tools as gnome screen
<ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks: Correct. I'm surprised you didn't know this since it made huge news about a year ago when Mark Shuttleworth announced Ubuntu would be dropping Unity in favor of Gnome Shell.
<ErichEickmeyer> Unity was gnome-based, but the code was not based on shell.
<OvenWerks> I knew they were dropping unity, but not the time line.
<ErichEickmeyer> Unity does live on and there is a remix that may very well become an official flavor.
<OvenWerks> Just the same as there are still some apps in the upstart folder :P
<ErichEickmeyer> As of 17.10, Unity is no longer the desktop of Ubuntu proper.
<OvenWerks> So how much is Vannila changed from raw/stock gnome shell?
 * OvenWerks still misses a real application menu too
<ErichEickmeyer> They wanted to make the transition from Unity as painless as possible, so they forked and simplified the Gnome Shell dash-to-dock extension to become a lot like the Unity launcher bar. Then they themed with Ambiance, and changed GDM to have a more purple/orange ubuntu theme.
<ErichEickmeyer> Vanilla Gnome Shell is still an option, however, as a separate session.
<ErichEickmeyer> Completely installable.
<OvenWerks> I didn't install Vannila, just ran it live. But there is a flavour for gnome shell I think and I will be trying that too.
<ErichEickmeyer> Afraid not. Starting with 17.10, Ubuntu GNOME became Ubuntu proper.
<OvenWerks> but I should try mate probably sooner as that is what most people are suggesting
<OvenWerks> Ah so I would have to install Vannila and login to gnome shell, good to know.
<ErichEickmeyer> Yeah. I think you'll finde mate to be closer to your workflow. Also, with MATE tweak, the layout can be themed to look like just about any desktop out there, including Unity, the global menu, and even the HUD for searching the menu.
<OvenWerks> Being able to use the vannila desktop would always be a big plus for support reasons
<OvenWerks> In the ubuntu world the vannila desktop is the best known out there.
<OvenWerks> Does it sound like vannila will move closer to stock gnome shell in the future?
<OvenWerks> unity would be a good DE for tablets or netbooks... depending on CPU use. The very first version as used in the netbook iso was actually quite good and light weight too.
<OvenWerks> but netbooks are gone and replaced by tablets with keyboards.  :P  I would like to have seen netbooks too. I liked the 11inch screen size with a full computer... android is too restrictive.
<ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks: I'm not sure. Perhaps with layout, but I doubt it with theming. In fact, there's a new theme that's being worked on to replace Ambiance that they were hoping would make it into 18.04, but it just wasn't ready in time.
<OvenWerks> I think I need to work on and "indicator" that has a menu in it... that work correctly.
<ErichEickmeyer> I highly recommend checking out https://omgubuntu.co.uk . Anything and everything Ubuntu is pretty much covered there.
<ErichEickmeyer> BTW, indicators don't work in Gnome Shell.
<OvenWerks> What do they use then? do they have the systray?
<OvenWerks> Hmm there is still such a thing as ubuntu netbook... 
<ErichEickmeyer> Nope. The Gnome Shell developers decided to do away with a systray altogether. A shame really. There are extensions for it on https://extensions.gnome.org, but afaik they're broken. The Ubuntu Desktop team figured something out, but I'm not 100% sure on that.
<ErichEickmeyer> It's for that reason that many people that rely on a systray have been pushed to Plasma.
<OvenWerks> https://omgubuntu.co.uk/ seems to be down right now.
<ErichEickmeyer> Sorry, https://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/
<ErichEickmeyer> Seems to require the www
<OvenWerks> Hmm, new for 18.04, data collection  :P
<ErichEickmeyer> Yeah, but thankfully it's opt-in. You've got to want to participate in order to do so.
 * OvenWerks is downloading kubuntu and mate...
 * ErichEickmeyer is waiting for his new Dell machine to come in so he can properly do some testing... MacBooks don't do Linux justice.
<goatia> Hi all, Please could someone help, for some reason I lost my main volume control tab, Im new at Studio and still trying to find my way around. System was fine last night, when I start up now it takes longer than usual. I suspect it might have something to do with plugging in a Yamaha Keyboard on USB, not sure, any help and guidence will be appreciated
#ubuntustudio-devel 2018-04-12
<eylul> OvenWerks: are you here by any chance?
<OvenWerks> Aye
<OvenWerks> just walked in
<eylul> perfect. ok so for the 2 screen setup do you need one 2-screen wallpaper :)
<eylul> or 2 separate ones
<eylul> I created 2 separate ones now I am suddenly unsure :D
<OvenWerks> No, I can have either a really long skinny one or two normal ones.
<eylul> ok I am going to go with 2 normal ones
<eylul> because that also allows people who put their screens differently to use them
<OvenWerks> The left and right can be set separately
<eylul> I just wasn't sure if there was a clear advantage to having one over another
<eylul> yeah that's what I do, but I haven't used xfce in a while
<eylul> :)
<OvenWerks> Having two allows other than side by side. some people are top and bottom.
<eylul> <--- uses top and bottom
<OvenWerks> (not sure if they use top as main or bottom as main)
<eylul> (also different resolution screens. one is a cintiq)
<eylul> I use top as main, bottom as drawing area
<OvenWerks> That is common in graphics, old one for tools and good new one for drawing
<eylul> yup
<eylul> it has to do with how you place drawing screens too
<eylul> but I assume still majority of people do 2 screens side by side
<eylul> either way, ok 2 separate items it is. I did look into fixes thomas asked for. About to type email on it :) but I think these should be ready to upload later tonight
<OvenWerks> Once you go to three screens one ends up on top... or the graphic driver won't handle it
<eylul> which is the other thing. are you around tonight or tomorrow sometime? 
<eylul> that I didn't know
<eylul> o.O
<eylul> I use a laptop, limit is 2 screens anyway
<OvenWerks> it is 720 am here and I will be around till 2100 my time
<eylul> oh ok
<OvenWerks> I won't have my eyes focused on irc though
<eylul> mostly I'll probably need help putting the thing on distro
<eylul> I actually never done it before
<eylul> this is probably a good excuse to learn it
<OvenWerks> I can upload but I can't release, that would be ross
<eylul> I think I have upload access
<eylul> I just don't know how, and should probably learn
<OvenWerks> we used to ask micahg but I don't think he still has rights or time.
<eylul> fairly certain ross and sakrecoer are the ones who has access to it
<OvenWerks> for Ross I think best to send email
<eylul> *nods*
 * OvenWerks needs to do a bug for cpufrequtils sometime today
<eylul> I'll probably be gone for.. uhhh
<eylul> my evening
<eylul> I will be back for a few hours at least starting 6 hours from now
<eylul> timezones :))
<OvenWerks> I used to keep a UTC clock going... but these days Manilla seems to be the thing
<OvenWerks> (where the outlaws live)
<OvenWerks> Ok, after some of the comments on here, I thought I should try vanilla actually installed.
<OvenWerks> Nautilus, I assume that is the file "manager" in use is horrible. It has no menu... or one so tiny and useless and it may as well not have one. It has no up directory button, when browsing a remote computer, you can go anywhere on the disk when it is first opened, but when you open to that system the next time, it opens in the user's home direcory
<OvenWerks> but with no up directory button it is impossible to get back to the original directory logged in to.
<OvenWerks> The two session options are ubuntu and ubuntu on wayland... I have yet to check the second....
<OvenWerks> no preferences... not even an about so you can check what version it is.
<OvenWerks> Ah, I can get that from the dock
<OvenWerks> it wants me to restart again, (like windows?)
<OvenWerks> ubuntu on wayland is not gnome screen as someone suggested.
<OvenWerks> wayland does not know what way my monitors are set up, Xorg knew this somehow or defaulted correctly.
<OvenWerks> I had to change both the the monitors and primary display
<studio-devel136> help
<OvenWerks> One thing I did find is that it is possible to group application in the show applications section
<OvenWerks> help is on #ubuntustudio
<OvenWerks> this channel is for helping develop Studio
<studio-devel136> Hola, no hablo inglÃ©s pero el traductor de chrome me ayuda, estoy probando ubuntu studio
<OvenWerks> english please
<OvenWerks> The mouse work in vanilla to go to the next workspace is yucky... left side of the screen to show workspaces, right side to choose. Not made to be used often.
<OvenWerks> anyway, I have now installed Gno-menu which looks ok, and am now putting some Studio metas in place
<OvenWerks> hmm, I managed to freeze things sort of. Got to no keyboard entry :/
<OvenWerks> Anyway with the gno-menu, our menu file, an adition fix to the system menu file :) the menu looks sort of like whisker... so do able. We could probably do like we do now with a subdirectory of /etc/xdg/ for a studio login if we wanted to use this.
<OvenWerks> Another way of fixing things would be to create a menu launcher that can be added to the dock rather than the top bar/panel/whatever
<OvenWerks> Theres an option I like: Never prompt or start programs on media insertion
<OvenWerks> It allows switching back and forth very easliy
<ErichEickmeyer> !es
<ubottu> En la mayorÃ­a de los canales de Ubuntu, se habla sÃ³lo en inglÃ©s. Si busca ayuda en espaÃ±ol entre al canal #ubuntu-es; escriba " /join #ubuntu-es " (sin comillas) y presione intro.
<OvenWerks> ErichEickmeyer: he is already gone
<ErichEickmeyer> Yeah, I just saw that. Oh well...
<OvenWerks> he was in the wrong place anyway
<ErichEickmeyer> Yeah, either way that little command there is super handy.
<OvenWerks> so long as you happen to know all the language codes.
<ErichEickmeyer> True. I think it's listed somewhere, but idk off the top of my head.
<ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks: The way I see it, we cannot adapt Gnome Shell to behave like Xfce, so we shouldn't try. The only thing I see we can do is do custom theming with that, and then it's up to the user to customize it to their liking. That's just my 2c.
<ErichEickmeyer> If anything, offer it as an option alongside the other DEs, but I wouldn't consider that one a priority.
<OvenWerks> It's not bad
<ErichEickmeyer> Oh, it's not bad by any means. In fact, there are aspects of it I quite enjoy.
<OvenWerks> If someone enjoys the way it works there are not many things to add or subtract to make it a bit better
<ErichEickmeyer> That's true. There are some pretty neat things in https://extensions.gnome.org as well.
<OvenWerks> Just adding a menu makes looking to see what is on the system easier.
<OvenWerks> Having things split up helps too.
<OvenWerks> Knowing that gimp is a graphic application is better than just knowing you have gimp for example.
<ErichEickmeyer> Yeah, definitely. From the perspective of a GNOME user, simply hitting super and then typing the name or category you're looking for would be the workflow as opposed to fishing through a menu.
<OvenWerks> once you know what is there that is true, but someone who loads a Studio meta doesn't really know what they have
<ErichEickmeyer> Yep, which is why customizing Ubuntu Mate Welcome's software botique to Studio would be invaluable, since you can list included apps there.
<OvenWerks> I personally have found I almost never find what I want using a search, my ideas of what to search for and the rest of the world seems to be different
<OvenWerks> So even for the avid search engin user, the menu is a backup.
<OvenWerks> Studio, with all applications installed, is messy and has too many applications to go wandering through to look for something. As a desktop for normal computer use... who really needs a menu?
<ErichEickmeyer> That's true. Pretty much every DE aside from Gnome Shell has a menu that is also searchable. BTW, I think my next attempt will be to use Studio with LXQt on Simon Quigley's recommendation.
<OvenWerks> is there a flavour with lxqt? I thought lubuntu was still lzde
<OvenWerks> *lxde
<ErichEickmeyer> 18.04 will be Lubuntu's last LXDE, since LXDE and RazorQt merged to form LXQt. They're releasing Lubuntu Next this cycle which uses LXQt, but 18.10 will be completely LXQt.
<OvenWerks> cool, I will have to look at it, lubuntu always had an unfinished feel to me.
<ErichEickmeyer> Same. I'll be looking at it as well. Simon told me that a Qt-based DE is easier to maintain.
<OvenWerks> Ya, that was their reason for going in that direction. From what I have heard, I agree
<OvenWerks> gtk2 to gtk3 is not an easy task and has cost the audio comunity some great SW
<ErichEickmeyer> With that in mind, it might be cool to transition to LXQt from Xfce for the install ISOs, but give a choice of DE as well.
<ErichEickmeyer> choice of DE as part of the install.
<OvenWerks> will have to see what it is like.
<ErichEickmeyer> Yeah. My reasoning would be that LXQt has a smaller footprint than Xfce and, therefore, would make the ISO smaller.
<OvenWerks> VFWM?
<ErichEickmeyer> Now let's not get carried away.... XD
<OvenWerks> sorry fvwm
<ErichEickmeyer> I knew what you meant. :)
<ErichEickmeyer> If we wanna get real lightweight and alienate our community... TWM.
<OvenWerks> Tab is not so nice, I would take motif over that
<ErichEickmeyer> haha
 * OvenWerks used motif on a microvax at work....
<ErichEickmeyer> My condolances?
<OvenWerks> It was as good as win NT
<OvenWerks> The microvax was at least real time capable
<OvenWerks> We used it for machine control.
<ErichEickmeyer> Huh. Interesting. Makes sense for an embedded system for sure.
<OvenWerks> 100 foot long sorting machine
<OvenWerks> media belt travels at 3meters/sec or so
<ErichEickmeyer> Oh wow.
<OvenWerks> gnome-tweaks is the package to have in gnome-screen. I am not sure why Vanilla fails to ship with this, it is like the other half of settings that should have been included in the first place
<OvenWerks> I can have static or dynamic workspaces... workspaces on primary display only or workspaces span displays.
<captain-tux> Anecdotal guess: Most common users aren't concerned with any of this.
<OvenWerks> 5 people use work spaces...
<OvenWerks> workspaces span displays does not seem to mean what I think it should
<captain-tux> What does it mean there?
<OvenWerks> It seems to mean that the second display shows all the apps on that display in any workspace and I have to choose it
<OvenWerks> or choose the one I want
<OvenWerks> So twice the work, pick left then pick right
<OvenWerks>  Indicators sort of work... if I start qjckctl it's indicator does show up (+1) but all it does is show the window on double click, it does not show the indicator menu. So we have gone from a very usable systray where right click and left click could have two different menus, to indicators that could only have one menu... to indicators that have been gelded once again to no menus :P
<OvenWerks> Ah, if I choose left first, right follows
#ubuntustudio-devel 2018-04-13
<OvenWerks> Studio doesn't look too bad on top of vanilla... http://www.ovenwerks.net/paste/screens/Screenshot%20from%202018-04-12%2016-44-13.png
<OvenWerks> eylul: unfortunately, I can not use different backdrops for different screens in this case (unless I am still missing something)
<captain-tux> Not bad at all, no. That icon-bar to the left was apparently made for poor-sighted users, but the rest looks pretty smooth.
<OvenWerks> captain-tux: I think it can be reduced in size and if not it can be set to go away when not in use.
<OvenWerks> Ya it looks nicer with icon size at 24 instead of 48
<OvenWerks> Autohide works if there is an application right against the left side.
<OvenWerks> captain-tux: 24px icons also means a lot more things fit in there.
<eylul> checking this now ovenwerks
<eylul> I am surprised multiple backgrounds are not possible.
<eylul> that's.. unity? 
<eylul> the left side bar actually is a good design choice. as a lot of modern screens are wide.
<eylul> and top bars and bottom bars cut off from height. (I still like the aesthethic of horizontal bars through)
<OvenWerks> eylul: this is ubuntu vailla which is gnome shell underneath I think
<eylul> ah
<OvenWerks> (18.04)
<eylul> by the way a very uncharacteristic newbie question. do we have instructions as to how to do an upload?
<eylul> I know I read this up at some point in past, and never done it. I'd like to try to do it if it is not too complicated.
<OvenWerks> the line to upload is on the package page
<OvenWerks> first pull the package bzr pull package_url
<OvenWerks> then modify it, then bzr push package_url
<eylul> ok so I guess that means I need to first figure out where the wallpapers are.
<eylul> *goes to do that*
<OvenWerks> ya, that first, then you have to change the file that points at it
<OvenWerks> eylul: https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntustudio-look/trunk
<OvenWerks> eylul: if you are logged in you will see two lines:
<OvenWerks> bzr branch lp:ubuntustudio-look
<OvenWerks> That will create a package directory on your HD.
<eylul> oh
<OvenWerks> bzr push lp:ubuntustudio-look
<OvenWerks> to upload
<OvenWerks> of course there has to be a changelog edit and a commit...
<eylul> oh looks like I will need to login
<OvenWerks> The subdirectory to put the images in would be:  /usr/share/backgrounds/ubuntustudio
<eylul> yup
<eylul> /media/rain/Depot/ACTIVE/Workspace/_ubuntustudio/wallpaper/package/ubuntustudio-look/usr/share/gnome-background-properties/ has backgrounds looking to see if xfce has a file like this
<OvenWerks> It could be forced to look there would not by default
<OvenWerks> The config file is a full path: <property name="image-path" type="string" value="/usr/share/backgrounds/ubuntustudio/ubuntustudio-default.png"/>
<OvenWerks> The package is ubuntustudio-default-settings and the file is /etc/xdg/xdg-ubuntustudio/xfce4/xfconf/xfce-perchannel-xml/xfce4-desktop.xml
<eylul> ohh
<OvenWerks> You will see that there are two specs there so you can actually put a pth to both left(main) and right(extra) images for screen 0 and screen1
<eylul> I can't find the file in the package through
<OvenWerks> which package? the config file is not in the same package as the image
<eylul> ohhhh
<eylul> ok I so i just need to upload the image itself first. alright that should be relatively straightforward to do assuming I am allowed to do it
<OvenWerks> eylul: it says you are a member
<eylul> alright :)
<eylul> ovenwerks: ok fun error I wasn't able to upload so i started over to create a branch (after adding username to login)
<eylul> Permission denied (publickey).
<eylul> ConnectionReset reading response for 'BzrDir.open_2.1', retrying
<eylul> Permission denied (publickey).
<eylul> I assume I am somehow not linking my login correctly
<OvenWerks> me can't remember how he set up.
<OvenWerks> have setup ssh keys on you settings?
<eylul> I thought I did.. but... I guess in one of the moves I dropped them. let me see
<eylul> yeah I do have my ssh key on .ssh. but maybe bzr is not setup correctly
<eylul> there has to be a better and more modern way to do this... XD
<eylul> ovenwerks: last question if you are still around. do I need to use the add command of bzr, or can I just copy files etc
<OvenWerks> yes you need add
<OvenWerks> I am going to switch back to 16.04 where my development environment is.
<eylul> alright
<eylul> ok I think i got the wallpapers in 
<OvenWerks> eylul: yup, Looks odd though and failed to auto build.
<eylul> yeah
<eylul> I don't like the mass file modified list that is showing there
<OvenWerks> It doesn't show the mods though. Probably means file type/permitions/something else odd
<eylul> it might be file permissions
<eylul> I did do a diff on the default settings
<eylul> and saw some x permission changes. can we revert the upload?
<eylul> to a previous revision I mean
<OvenWerks> yes
<OvenWerks> I'm fetching the package now.
<eylul> sorry to be a time hog by the way
<OvenWerks> I would not worry about that. The permisions will be corrected at install time or before for the directory they will be installed in.
<eylul> *nods*
<OvenWerks> eylul: no problem I have been playing with vanilla anyway through the whole ting
<eylul> :)
<OvenWerks> I have almost convined myself we should should use it next cycle.
<OvenWerks> *should just
<eylul> interesting trivia: it looks like the default settings package was edited to have the ubuntustudio-default.png so that it doesn't have to be edited. :) unfortunately nobody seems to have accounted for a file type change, or 2 monitor wallpaper
<eylul> I am ok if we want to go that route
<eylul> I am ok to stand aside for someone to quickly upload this without much hassle
<OvenWerks> I think there is a file needs editing.
<eylul> after spending 2 hours, trying to branch because my ssh files were not named the way bzr expected them to be XD
<eylul> oh?
<eylul> the debian one?
<OvenWerks> ubuntustudio-wallpapers.xml 
<eylul> I can do that
<eylul> one sec
<eylul> does the lack of edit there causing failing to autobuild through?
<krytarik> Messing up the permissions of an entire repo huge like this isn't something I'd call "cool" btw.. :D
<OvenWerks> No it looks like permissions
<eylul> hi krytarik
<krytarik> Hiii!
<eylul> yeah no I am still thinking it might be best to just revert the changes
<eylul> and let someone else do this *sighs*
<eylul> its one wallpaper upload
<OvenWerks> I'll set the images aside first.
<eylul> I have copies of them
<eylul> and they are linked at mailing list
<eylul> so whoever uploads them can simply download them from there
<eylul> :)
<OvenWerks> download once use twice :)
<eylul> oh
<eylul> fair
<OvenWerks> it is taking a wile to download... all those big pictures
<eylul> yeah :)
<OvenWerks> Ok thats strange, the image it points at is not in that package
<eylul> that I can answer
<eylul> it is generated 
<OvenWerks> so -look seems to be the wrong package anyway
<eylul> its a symlink generated by ubuntu-look
<eylul> ubuntustudio-look
<eylul> ubuntustudio-look/debian/ubuntustudio-wallpapers.links
<eylul> is where we would modify it normally.
<eylul> but a) we are changing from png to jpg. b) we are trying to add a second monitor image that is separate. so default settings needs to change
<OvenWerks> I can't fidn where tat happens.
<eylul> neither can I, but that was the closest conclusion I could get from revision notes of the both packages
<eylul> my local install, does have symlinks of appropriate names that refers to 16.04 wallpapers
<eylul> *waits for the revert before going to sleep*
<OvenWerks> Ok, I found the link install... At least I know how to do it when it finishes downloading
<eylul> lets write this down?
<eylul> so that we don't go through this whole process next time we need to update a wallpaper
<eylul> *is actually already taking notes*
<OvenWerks> pushing now
<eylul> thanks
<OvenWerks> I also forgot to update Authors...
<OvenWerks>  Ohwell
<OvenWerks> And it failed... 
<eylul> hahhaa
<eylul> well we can always add to authors etc later
<eylul> it failed through?
<eylul> I think I am going to crash
<eylul> its 7am here
<OvenWerks> done
<eylul> oh
<eylul> phiew
<eylul> thanks :) 
<OvenWerks> I had to use --overwrite
<OvenWerks>  now to add the AUTHOR lines
<eylul> : also 
<eylul> https://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntustudio-look/trunk/view/head:/debian/copyright
<eylul> *ducks the incoming object*
<eylul> ^ ovenwerks 
<OvenWerks> Ya..
<eylul> at some point maybe we can somehow consolidate these multiple copyright/author informations into one?
<eylul> unless there is a specific reason for multiple copies to exist
<OvenWerks> It should be ready to release... Ross?
<OvenWerks> Now I get to fix -settings
<eylul> I don't think he is on channel
<OvenWerks> I know...
<OvenWerks> I have about 10 min left before I pick my Yf up from work.
<eylul> thanks so much
<OvenWerks> settings done too
<eylul> \o/
 * OvenWerks is off to rescue tired Yf (who worked overtime today0
<eylul> oh wow
<eylul> bye. *is off to sleep*
<eylul> gnight
<slidinghorn> Just wanted to stop in and volunteer to help wherever I can. Heard y'all might be a little short-handed, and this is a distro/spin that speaks to my needs.  I figure it'd be the best place for me to devote my time
<krytarik> OvenWerks: http://changelogs.ubuntu.com/changelogs/pool/universe/u/ubuntustudio-look/ubuntustudio-look_0.54/changelog - now, either one of us could update the changelog in the repo to match the one of the last release, and move the new entries to a new section.
<krytarik> (I'm fine if you want to correct it yourself, but I also wouldn't have a problem doing it.)
<krytarik> OvenWerks: Well, I got inclined fiddling with it, and so I just pushed it, too.
<krytarik> Also updated the daily builds for -look and -default-settings
<krytarik> (Means updated the series to build for mostly.)
<OvenWerks> slidinghorn: Thank you. Also thank you for helping in #ubuntustudio.
<OvenWerks> krytarik: I had lready gone to bed...sorry
<krytarik> Well, of course, figured it should be early over there. :)
<slidinghorn> If I wanted to attempt to help maintain a package, would it be more advisable to have an Ubuntu Studio VM and do it there?  
#ubuntustudio-devel 2018-04-14
<eylul> not sure if we are meeting but I am here
<captain-tux_> Hi, somebody here? :)
<slidinghorn> I'm here :)
<captain-tux_> Hey
<eylul> hi
<eylul> ErichEickmeyer: we are meeting today right? :)
<captain-tux_> He sent out a mail with a couple of points a few hours ago, so I assume he's aware..? ;)
<eylul> I assume so? :)
<ErichEickmeyer> Yeah, sorry!
<ErichEickmeyer> Ran late.
<ErichEickmeyer> Had to run my wife to Urgent Care, which is where we're at now.
<captain-tux_> About that, have there been any other issues with the application selector in ubiquity? I thought that was sorted out?
<ErichEickmeyer> captain-tux_: No, I was just wondering if we heard anything.
<captain-tux_> Oh, hi.
<slidinghorn> ErichEickmeyer: yikes...hope everything's alright
<ErichEickmeyer> Hence the item on the agenda.
<captain-tux_> Okay
<ErichEickmeyer> She's fine, probably strep throat.
<ErichEickmeyer> So, I'm getting the agenda in front of me...
<eylul> O.O
<captain-tux_> Should we postpone this for now?
<captain-tux_> I'll be here for the evening anyway (21:00 in Ger), I don't know about you guys.
<eylul> yeah same here. i will be around for at least a few more hours, and can be around tomorrow evening too
<ErichEickmeyer> The problem is Im not round tomorrow.
<ErichEickmeyer> And apparently can't type.
<ErichEickmeyer> We're just waiting for test results and what-not, which will take about 15 minutes.
<ErichEickmeyer> I know OvenWerks couldn't be here.
<eylul> *nods*
<captain-tux_> Yep, I've read that as well. 
<ErichEickmeyer> Let's just hit what we've got. 
<ErichEickmeyer> eylul: Love the wallpaper. Any thing else on that? Is it in the repo? And, is it default?
<eylul> Len did the upload (after I tried, and.. well tldr failed :) )
<ErichEickmeyer> Ugh... I guess we can keep pushing ahead on that.
<eylul> but I am not sure if those changes were merged in. 
<eylul> not sure who else except ross has access to that
<ErichEickmeyer> Set should have access, if not one of us needs that access.
<ErichEickmeyer> Looks like Ross is a bit incommunicado for the forseeable future.
<eylul> well.. there is a reason why we asked for the help :)
<ErichEickmeyer> Yeah. That's when I came along. :/
<eylul> :)
<ErichEickmeyer> Okay, let's move to the next item and keep plugging away on the wallpaper.
<eylul> I think some new people should have that access, at least you, or we should have backup people to have access to it
<ErichEickmeyer> Already talked about the package selection, have we had any further bug reports? I haven't seen any.
<ErichEickmeyer> eylul: Agreed. I'll bug Set.
<captain-tux_> Me, neither. I haven't tested a more recent ISO, but it worked fine a few days ago.
<captain-tux_> Should be fine.
<eylul> the way we did this in previous releases were a few people did at least try to test the RC and the release copy before we released it formally. 
<eylul> so the question would be figuring out who is around to do that
<eylul> ErichEickmeyer:  and captain-tux_ I might be covering stuff you already know here.
<ErichEickmeyer> One of us, and since I'm on the release team, I guess that defaults to me. Excuse me while I bench-press that weight on my shoulders.
<eylul> :D
<ErichEickmeyer> So, we'll call the package selection solved.
<ErichEickmeyer> We'll continue exploring DEs.
<eylul> I do agree with ross about not touching that this close to release
<eylul> we are far past the feature freeze
<ErichEickmeyer> Yep.
<eylul> I am even hesitant to merge the wallpaper but at least that is easy to test, if we do it by the RC
<ErichEickmeyer> Yeah.
<captain-tux_> eylul, I'll run some tests on all ISOs close to the release, but I can't cover every use-case, of course.
<ErichEickmeyer> Do you want to keep plugging-away at getting that wallpaper uploaded and defaulted? I think getting a FFe this close might be problematic.
<eylul> its completely up to you guys. it is not something I can help with beyond this point
<ErichEickmeyer> Okay. Just for the sake of time, I think it would be best to implement that wallpaper for 18.10. Would've been nice to get it in 18.04, but since it's no longer LTS for us, I don't think we should make it priority.
<eylul> *nods*
<ErichEickmeyer> I think we need to hit 18.10 with a little "shock-and-awe" to get more attention. I plan on talking to a few linux news outlets about new features, etc.
<eylul> oh.. if we are going ahead and discussing next cycle I have 2 things to say related to that
<eylul> 1) I do.. have a... presence on mastodon and I am using it to signal boost ubuntustudio's existence. but beyond that would we be insterested in having a mastodon account, a formal one?
<eylul> it is one thing I can commit to updating since I am on the platform. fediverse (mastodon/friendica/gnusocial etc) is a niche area but a lot of open source people in there
<ErichEickmeyer> eylul: I'm for it, if mastadon is a good way to get information. Do any of the other flavors (or Ubuntu proper) have one?
<eylul> I think kubuntu might have gotten one for a while
<eylul> some of the ubuntu community council folk were there
<eylul> I know gimp has it, pixls.us's pat davis is there
<ErichEickmeyer> Okay. It's not a bad idea. We need all the publicity we can get.
<eylul> *nods*
<eylul> I'll continue promoting ubuntustudio there, and instagram when I get back there :/ but yeah there does seem to be a few users there. plus.. open sourced social media platform :)
<ErichEickmeyer> Yeah. That would be good to at least show we're part of the open source community.
<eylul> *nods*
<eylul> well. I'll create the account by next meeting. yell at me if I haven't. :)
<eylul> 2nd issue is.... we STILL do have very few people. we didn't do recruitment (until that SOS signal that is) as we couldn't mentor people
<ErichEickmeyer> Okay. :)
<eylul> is this something we can, or are interested in tackling?
<eylul> by we, of course I mean you guys.. :)
<eylul> as I can't really mentor anyone except for wordpress related things, art and design :)
<ErichEickmeyer> Well, I'm getting mentorship & help from other flavors. I can't really mentor right now, but I know there are others in other flavors that would fit that role, and I could talk to them about it.
<eylul> or if we can't mentor. any clear ideas as to how to get a few more people to sustain this distro
<ErichEickmeyer> Involve people from other flavors. Let me put it this way: Alan Pope is stoked that I've been here pushing, and I'm sure he could reference a few people for us.
<ErichEickmeyer> My time is running short, so I want to hit as much as possible. I'll ping you both (eylul, captain-tux_) when I'm available again after I'm off.
<eylul> alright
<captain-tux_> Sure
<ErichEickmeyer> And that time has come. We'll pick-up in about 60-90 minutes. Will you both be around then?
<eylul> I should be
<ErichEickmeyer> Oops,, gotta go. Bye!
<captain-tux_> Yes
<eylul> bye
<eylul> I'll be semi afk. captain-tux_ unless there is something you want to discuss / do while we wait?
<captain-tux_> Not really, I'll also have a look at Mastodon, I haven't checked it out, yet. ;)
<eylul> :)
<slidinghorn> while we're not in "official meeting mode" - I have time to give, however, I'd require a good bit of hand-holding, as I don't know how to do much at this point.  I think the "bringing in mentors" idea would be helpful for folks like myself :)
<eylul> slidinghorn, lack of mentorship has been an issue for a while now
<eylul> I joined in originally hoping to learn packaging
<slidinghorn> same here eylul 
<eylul> but yeah.
<eylul> slidinghorn, I assume the first part we will need your help at will be during the testing of RC candidate
<eylul> release candidate*
<eylul> and the release
<slidinghorn> I'm running the beta right now, actually
<eylul> *nods*
<eylul> ok so: http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/
<eylul> is where we keep track of testing
<eylul> right now there is the beta 2, daily, the release candidate will be there when it is up
<eylul> and we will have a couple of days to do the checks for ubuntustudio and mark the release candidate as.. well ready to release
<eylul> then we will do the same thing for the actual release
<eylul> http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/milestones/384/builds/170302/testcases
<eylul> this is what the test looks like.. 
<eylul> if you run into any bugs, you create the bugs in appropriate places, then link them at the release (or link to existing bugs. some non-critical bugs have been there for a while :) )
<eylul> feel free to ask any questions :)
<captain-tux_> I'm looking for a video on Youtube on testing that's short and was a really great overview for me, but it's pretty simple. Log in, click on the build or download info in eylul's link and simply install/run it and test as much as possible.
<captain-tux_> It's actually quite fun to go nuts with the system and just run multiple tasks at a time to break stuff (I usually use an extrnal hard drive for the installation and unplug my main drive).
<eylul> :)
<eylul> this reminds me, I need to sooner than later clean my old laptop for testing and development (that way I can stop tempting the fates with trying to dual boot the current one with an test partition)
<captain-tux_> Yeah, I haven't been that brave so far. ;)
<captain-tux_> eylul, maybe we could make your wallpaper available on the website for people to add themselves, if they want to install 18.04?
<eylul> we could
<eylul> or we could simply wait for 18.10
<eylul> :)
<eylul> assuming it didn't make it to daily builds that is
<ErichEickmeyer> eylul, captain-tux_, slidinghorn: I'm back.
<slidinghorn> welcome back
<eylul> welcome back. is everything alright?
<ErichEickmeyer> Yeah, wife does not have strep.
<ErichEickmeyer> Just laryngitis.
<eylul> well that's good
<eylul> ...relatively that is
<ErichEickmeyer> Either way, she had been exposed, so she needed to be checked.
<eylul> :(
<ErichEickmeyer> Okay, back to where we were: my idea was to involve people from other flavors until we got enough experience to mentor others. In many ways, with the current crew, we are having to reboot Ubuntu Studio as a flavor. Luckily, we are already an official flavor, so at least we have that going for us.
<eylul> *nods*
<ErichEickmeyer> Which is why my ideas have been, for 18.10, more revolutionary than evolutionary. The idea is to tell the world, "Hey, we're still here, and we've got something to say."
<slidinghorn> Yeah, I'd mentioned after you left that I'd need a good bit of hand-holding, so mentors would be nice if possible to get them
<ErichEickmeyer> slidinghorn: Yeah, I saw that. I'll be asking around.
<eylul> doing so at 18.10 is also timely 
<eylul> because it also gives us 3 release cycles
<eylul> to add new things that can be polished
<ErichEickmeyer> Set and Ross clearly have their hands full, so it's up to us to get the resources we need to keep the future of Ubuntu Studio alive.
<eylul> there will also be times I am away, one of the reasons we initially discussed the council idea is because it is very hard for 1 person to be there all the time
<ErichEickmeyer> Agreed, eylul. I feel as though, due to involvement, the council consists of myself, you, OvenWerks, and perhaps krytarik. It wouild be nice to make it official.
<ErichEickmeyer> Probably would need approval from sakrecoer.
<eylul> *nods*
<ErichEickmeyer> Anyhow, back to the agenda.
<eylul> yes sorry :D
<ErichEickmeyer> hehe
<eylul> captain-tux_ as well 
<eylul> btw
<ErichEickmeyer> What's funny about that is I meant to list him but my brain didn't get that info to my fingers.
<eylul> :D it happens. alright back to agenda as you said
<eylul> :)
<ErichEickmeyer> I think we can table the move from ubuntustudio-installer to ubuntu-mate-welcome for now, but keep it in the agenda for next time. Not much to discuss there.
<eylul> *nods*
<ErichEickmeyer> On to new business, I have, after getting feedback in the ML, advised jbicha not to move Gimp 2.10 from debian experimental to 18.04 since it would break MyPaint's ability to be installed simultaneously, therefore breaking workflows.
<eylul> we definitely need to not do that for 18.04.
<eylul> as for 18.10 I'd argue we need to test what snap is able to do. 
<ErichEickmeyer> Further info can be found in bug 1759625
<ubottu> bug 1759625 in gimp (Ubuntu) "FFe: Sync gimp 2.10.0~RC1-1 (universe) from Debian experimental (main)" [Wishlist,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1759625
<ErichEickmeyer> Good bot.
<eylul> :)
<ErichEickmeyer> eylul: Agreed. I'll try to get into contact with Popey on that one.
<eylul> *is still hoping 1.3.0 will show up before 18.10 release and that this will become a non-issue
<ErichEickmeyer> Agreed. That'd make it a no-brainer.
<ErichEickmeyer> Next: manpower: I've already let the powers-that-be in #ubuntu-release know that 18.04 needs to be a non-LTS this cycle based on feedback from the ML.
<ErichEickmeyer> Thoughts?
<eylul> not much
<ErichEickmeyer> Yeah. It's sad, but true.
<eylul> I like your description of rebooting the distro
<ErichEickmeyer> Yeah. Kinda needs to happen. Stagnated too long.
<eylul> and we could frame it as such on our posts
<ErichEickmeyer> Yep. That'd get attention, for sure. That, along with the website revamp, would get some attention.
<ErichEickmeyer> Still working on that?
<eylul> I did find the new images.
<eylul> new being from 2016 |:D
<ErichEickmeyer> Sweeeeeet. Think we can roll it out by the 26th?
<eylul> uh dear
<eylul> probably not
<captain-tux_> If you need some help, tell me. I've also got experiences with web-design (at least simple HTML/CSS/JS stuff) and Wordpress.
<ErichEickmeyer> Let's just try to get it as close as possible to the opening of the 18.10 repos then. That'd be decent timing for a big announcement.
<eylul> basically last time we got stuck trying to get our theme moved to live
<eylul> we were trying to add some flexibility
<eylul> to change images later etc
<eylul> and.. well
<eylul> it got complicated
<eylul> I need to look in there (or somebody else do)
<slidinghorn> I can also possibly help with the website
<eylul> figure out how to simplify the theme into a proper childtheme, and talk to IT. talking to IT side requires the lead
<eylul> or officiating the council
<eylul> this is where things kept getting stuck
<ErichEickmeyer> Hmm... captain-tux_, slidinghorn: If you can, ask join the Ubuntu Studio web team on Launchpad. This needs some priority.
<ErichEickmeyer> Okay, then let's do this: I'm going to list the names of those proposed to be the council in a ML email. If Set gives it the approval and gives us next steps, we'll go from there.
<captain-tux_> Alright.
<eylul> alright
<slidinghorn> ErichEickmeyer: I just put in a request
<ErichEickmeyer> slidinghorn: Thanks!
<eylul> ok it looks like the admin of that website group is core team
<ErichEickmeyer> Okay. Next item: We've already talked about Ross missing this release, and I stepped-in to try to fill those shoes to the best of my ability. I've also enlisted the help of Simon Quigley, so we've got that going for us.
<eylul> and only len and set are on it
<eylul> another thing to fix. just saying it to note this
<eylul> when is the RC release and actual release?
<ErichEickmeyer> Yeah, I'm going to be reading back through everything we discussed to create meeting notes. Due to the circumstances, I haven't been doing it as we go.
<ErichEickmeyer> RC is the 19th, Release is 26th.
<eylul> ..
<ErichEickmeyer> So, <1 week to RC.
<eylul> we don't have an RC candidate yet on ISO test.
<slidinghorn> are there any lists I should subscribe to other than the -devel one?
<ErichEickmeyer> All we have is Beta 2 and the dailies. We'll probably snapshot a daily.
<ErichEickmeyer> slidinghorn: Perhaps ubuntustudio-user.
<ErichEickmeyer> Okay, I'll be getting with Simon on how to get the RC candidate on ISO test.
<eylul> I think it didn't happen for any of the flavors..
<slidinghorn> done
<ErichEickmeyer> eylul: In that case, it's probably a matter of putting the latest daily out there and making it the RC.
<eylul> but it would be good to double check if there is anything that needs to be done from our end. ross was handling that coordination in past
<eylul> probably
<eylul> also we should start thinking release notes
<ErichEickmeyer> Yeah. I'll see if he can at least email me what needs to be done.
<eylul> *nods*
<ErichEickmeyer> Yeah. A lot of the release notes can be compiled from what we've discussed in the past few weeks.
<eylul> yep
<slidinghorn> I knw that there was a noveau bug I encountered, but pretty sure that's ubuntu-wide and not just studio - bug 1762360
<ubottu> bug 1762360 in xserver-xorg-video-nouveau (Ubuntu) "EVGA GeForce GTX 1060 - nouveau symbol lookup error causes X failure" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1762360
<eylul> *nods*
<ErichEickmeyer> Oh yeah, that's definitely being tracked by mainline.
<ErichEickmeyer> That's a show-stopper, for sure.
<ErichEickmeyer> I doubt anyone will let that go unfixed.
<eylul> that might also account for lack of RC
<ErichEickmeyer> Oh, easily. It'd leave NVidia users out in the cold.
<eylul> which is a lot of people :)
<slidinghorn> you mean I found an important one?  I kinda feel special
<eylul> (btw off topic erich but after we are done, I can tell you about the meeting recording bot)
<eylul> (I do have my notes still from when i was running the meetings)
<ErichEickmeyer> slidinghorn: That's easily important. If it's causing an X failure, then it's affecting every DE/WM that uses X, therefore all flavors.
<ErichEickmeyer> eylul: Absolutely. I might have to jet, so feel free to email me.
<eylul> or that.
<ErichEickmeyer> Anyhow, I've got nothing further unless someone else does. Just to let you know, we've had a number of naysayers hitting us, saying the Ubuntu Counil won't let us do some of our ideas, based on information from 5 years ago (and some burnt bridges). Let's prove them wrong.
<eylul> o.O?
<eylul> huh?
<ErichEickmeyer> Like that ubuntu-mate-welcome isn't allowed and the only reason it's still there is because it was there before it was an official flavor.
<captain-tux_> *playing an orchestral soundtrack* ;)
<eylul> then we try, and if they say no then we evaluate again
<eylul> and in that particular case advocate for it
<ErichEickmeyer> Yep. No sense in not trying. I know that if it wasn't allowed, Wimpress wouldn't be doing it.
<ErichEickmeyer> What I'm saying is, let's prove the haters wrong and... MUSGA?
<eylul> I have no idea what that means. 
<ErichEickmeyer> Make Ubuntu Studio Great Again
<ErichEickmeyer> ...
<ErichEickmeyer> Bad joke.
<ErichEickmeyer> I know.
<captain-tux_> Oh crap, I'll have to look it up as well. :D
<eylul> :D
<slidinghorn> nice.
<ErichEickmeyer> Anyhow, that's it for the meeting unless anyone else has something.
<captain-tux_> Maybe a little controversial point in time, but appreciated. :)
<captain-tux_> No
<ErichEickmeyer> captain-tux_: Indeed.
<slidinghorn> Well, I'll be around, so if there's anything I can do to assist, please hit me up...here or by email if I don't respond 
<ErichEickmeyer> Cool. Thanks for coming, slidinghorn!
<ErichEickmeyer> Your help is very much appreciated.
<ErichEickmeyer> Well, then let's officially close the meeting. I'lll get notes out as soon as I can. :)
<eylul> alright sounds good
<Wimpress> What did I do? 
<eylul> AHAHAHAHA
<ErichEickmeyer> AHAHAHAA!
<ErichEickmeyer> Wimpress: If you are the same Martin Wimpress...
<ErichEickmeyer> you've done a lot. :D :D
<Wimpress> It is I
<eylul> its nothing bad. we were talking about the ubuntu-mate-welcome
<ErichEickmeyer> We're considering adopting ubuntu-mate-weldome for Ubuntu Studio.
<ErichEickmeyer> I was going to talk to you about how to go about doing that. But, that can wait. I've gotta get to work relatively soon.
<ErichEickmeyer> By work I mean my regular job.
<Wimpress> Ubuntu Budgie forked it as Ubuntu Budgie Welcome too. 
<Wimpress> It's all a bit of mess right now. 
<Wimpress> Should improve midway through the 18.10 cycle. 
<ErichEickmeyer> Wimpress: Good to hear. I'd love to chat with you about it sometime in Mumble, if you wouldn't mind.
<ErichEickmeyer> We've all been brainstorming a bunch of ideas to basically "reboot" Ubuntu Studio as a distro/flavor, and creating ubuntu-studio-welcome would be part of that.
<ErichEickmeyer> Our goal would be to make that happen by 18.10.
<ErichEickmeyer> The big thing, Wimpress, is that we are in a bit of a directional transition with those that have led the project for a long time no longer have time. So a handful of us have stepped-up. It's a good time.
<ErichEickmeyer> Anyhow, off to work with me. Night, all!
<eylul> gnight
 * ErichEickmeyer switches to lurk mode
<captain-tux_> See you around.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2018-04-15
<OvenWerks> I didn't think it would be a problem to add in the new wall paper if it's lack is marked as a bug...
<ErichEickmeyer> Weeee! Meeting notes out the door.
<slidinghorn> ErichEickmeyer: want me to post it on the subreddit?
<krytarik> Looking at the meeting minutes from earlier now: "Set, is there anybody besides yourself or Ross that can merge items into the official repos?" - neither of those, alongside with the rest of us, can actually upload packages to the official repos.
<krytarik> This is why making any changes to any of our sources is always a little fun currently..
<krytarik> OvenWerks: And yes, getting a freeze exemption of any sort on the new wallpapers would be the least of the problems, but the above is the real one.
<krytarik> Also, while I agree that it's sort of sensible to call off the LTS, it's kind of ironic because: 1.) we are based on main Ubuntu which will be supported for 5 years, 2.) we are also based on Xubuntu which will be supported for 3 years, 3.) on 16.04 we literally haven't done anything in support of the additional packages we ship either, while we did took part in the point releases of ...
<krytarik> ... course, 4.) involvement has just picked up quite a notch, and 5.) users are mostly recommended and tend to prefer LTS releases.  Also, I'm not quite fond of marketing the continued development of the flavor as a "reboot" - while some new stuff might be good in various ways, using that marketing strategy would make it look like something was particularly wrong before and users easily ...
<krytarik> ... map that to the past releases too.  And wrt the stuck website overhaul, the reason for this is basically that Canonical IS don't install WordPress themes in the intended path structure - which makes any parent/child theme setup impossible to function until they do.
<krytarik> And wrt the concerns regarding MATE Welcome referred to, this would be the context of that: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/technical-board/2018-February/002355.html
<krytarik> And the minutes of the meeting referred to in that: https://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting-2/2018/ubuntu-meeting-2.2018-02-27-20.01.html
<eylul> Krytarik: actually from the read of the logs it looks like there is a very clear solution forward as to how to fix the issues
<eylul> will check the rest of the logs to see if there has been any follow ups on it but thanks for sharing this. it is useful context. 
<eylul> as for the reboot, that I have to disagree. I have never seen reboot imply something is wrong. 
<eylul> Actually one argument to doing this is to attract more developers to the project so that we can bring it above the "minimal activity". Maybe we will fail, but that is not reason to not try. I wasn't sure we would get any volunteers at all when we asked for help, and seriously thinking we might need to retire the distro. I didn't happen. :)
<eylul> same thing with LTS, just because something was done differently before doesn't mean that we can't review and come up with a new decision. 
<eylul> That none of us have access to add things to the official release is a bad one, and something that we need to tackle.
<eylul> as for the website I had 2 years to think about that situation. Honestly if they don't we adjust and do it the way they do it
<eylul> and then if it breaks we fix it then
<eylul> I'd much rather see that work realized than worry about what will happen if they change the upload structure 5 years from now but that's my personal opinion on the topic.
<OvenWerks> krytarik: I just wanted to mention with regard to the MATE software boutique. I do not think it was ever thought that we would just use it as is so much as use the framework for our own purposes. In ubuntustudio-installer all packages are in ubuntu repos we did not (for example) link kxstudio repos thogh may have made sense. We are interested in the tool more than what purposes it has been used for somewhere else.
<OvenWerks> krytarik: That being said, that reference to a well laid out reasoning for concern as to how it has been used somewhere else will help us set up a similar application correctly.
<krytarik> OvenWerks: Well yes, I also think it should be possible for us to either link a different set of third-party repos or none if we wish so - and otherwise I think it's indeed a good idea of a replacement for what we have currently, if it then works as intended.  And regarding the KXStudio repos, I think it's fine to have not made any attempt to make it available as an extra source - as ...
<krytarik> ... we know for a fact that it uses to break the user's system very easily. :P
<OvenWerks> krytarik: the only "extra" repos should be back ports
<krytarik> Yes, that would be ideal, while also not enabled by default of course - but unfortunately nobody put any work in it for a while now either.
<OvenWerks> krytarik: I also think even in a backports case, it should be package at a time not, all. By package I mean package+version.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-04-08
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: That sounds like me on Friday.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-04-09
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: It looks like we need a doc page on CPU governors and such based on the conversation krytarik had with miiauu last night (22:30ish)
<OvenWerks> "Boost" is on by default
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Yeah, I just looked at that. There should be something in the Ubuntu Studio Controls documentation.
<Eickmeyer> !ubuntustudio-controls
<ubottu> Ubuntu Studio Controls is the application through which audio is configured in Ubuntu Studio. It configures Jack, sets the CPU governor, and ensures the user has realtime audio permissions. For more info, see !jack and https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudio/UbuntuStudioControls
<OvenWerks> But... Boost is bad for lowlatency (audio or otherwise)
<Eickmeyer> Right.
<Eickmeyer> In the doc: In the System Tweaks tab, you will see the options for changing your CPU Governor and turning Intel Boost on and off. If you are doing low latency audio work, the CPU Governor should be set to Performance and the Intel Boost should be off. Otherwise, adjust as desired
<Eickmeyer> So, it's there... *shrug*
<OvenWerks> I have not played with resetting speed limits which would allow one to set the performance speed higher than rated. I have not had the need.
<OvenWerks> It is possible though
<OvenWerks> With boost on my system will run .2Ghz faster on all cores when cpu is at 100%
<Eickmeyer> I just worry that people will overclock their systems and potentially cause damage.
<OvenWerks> it will not over heat even when running that way for 15minutes or more
<OvenWerks> That is why I don't provide tools :)
<Eickmeyer> And that's why we shouldn't provide the tools. If they want to do it, they can, but I fear we'll get blamed for killing their cat if we provide the means.
<OvenWerks> and .2Ghz (3.4 instaed of 3.2) is less than 1% improvement anyway
<Eickmeyer> Well, more CPU Power does not necessarily mean less latency.
<Eickmeyer> There are far more factors than that.
<OvenWerks> In fact building Ardour does not take a noticeable different time with boost or without.
<OvenWerks> USB has become the big limiter these days
<OvenWerks> 2ms for stability.
<OvenWerks> vs. .7 for a pci device
<Eickmeyer> Yes, though, it depends on the USB device as well. The ones that are manufactured for pro audio are far better on latency than your run-of-the-mill USB microphone.
<OvenWerks> Ya, I don't know if you saw the guy I started talking with who had the samson usb mic...
<OvenWerks> I didn't get real time with him and so I don't know where that went
<OvenWerks> I suspect the USB mic shows up as texusinstruments or something like that and so is there but not the name he expected.
<Eickmeyer> Yeah, I saw that. I've had some luck with USB microphones (I have a CAD U37 USB Condenser mic that performed okay), but Samson, as a brand, is one that I avoid.
<Eickmeyer> Mine showed up as a very generic brand as well.
<OvenWerks> The documentation does not use drivers for mac or windows which almost makes me think USB1.1 but it says it can do 96k... which is USB2.0
<OvenWerks> Either way it should just show up.
<Eickmeyer> My USB mic doesn't have drivers for mac or windows either, but it's definitely USB 2.0, and it just shows up.
<OvenWerks> So windows has finally added USB2.0 then. They didn't for a long time.
<Eickmeyer> Oh, I used USB 2.0 on Windows for quite some time. Probably since Windows 7. Windows 10, though, definitely has it.
<Eickmeyer> My Behringer interface technically doesn't need drivers, but it does have ASIO drivers, probably to deal with latency.
 * Eickmeyer doesn't dabble in Windows audio too much.
<OvenWerks> So all of the USB devices come with drivers just to be complete with older windows?
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Yep, usually for Windows XP.
<Eickmeyer> Which is long EOL, but manufacturers haven't updated their process, and it's probably no skin off of their back to keep legacy drivers included.
<OvenWerks> Lots of studios use XP because they paid for their SW for it and it works.
<Eickmeyer> Then that might be one reason.
<OvenWerks> Some studios have many $k invested in plugins and SW
<OvenWerks> That is the reason Ardour suports XP builds too.
<Eickmeyer> I know a guy that got himself addicted to Waves plugins. Poor guy. Vendor lock-in is real.
<OvenWerks> Even though it is a pain because XP is 32bit c++99 and everything else is 64bit c++11
<OvenWerks> In fact kxstudio ISO has the same problem as it is based on 12.04 or 14.04 (can't remember which)
<Eickmeyer> 14.04, last I checked.
<Eickmeyer> He was working on an 18.04 version, but he's not concentrating as much on that as he is Carla.
<OvenWerks> He was aiming for 18.04... I don't know if he is looking to do 20.04 or not.
<OvenWerks> 18.04 would be better than 14.04 for sure
<OvenWerks> just for graphic card support
<Eickmeyer> Right.
<OvenWerks> I actually think that Falktx would be happy not to make a new ISO if Studio came with most of his SW
<OvenWerks> He would be even more happy if we used KDE ;) but having good kde support would probably work ok too.
<OvenWerks> The one thing I wuld like to see, is an ISO that would work as an offline repo having everything isnstaller needs to work. (deps too)
<OvenWerks> So a person could DL the kubuntu iso (or other flavour) and the installer ISO and do a complete off line install.
<OvenWerks> Institusions like schools like to work that way.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Wouldn't a persistent ISO do that job?
<Eickmeyer> Rather, a persistent USB?
<OvenWerks> I don't know, to be honest... But something that is easy to DL even if it is a script to DL what is needed.
<OvenWerks> The advantage of an actual ISO or a file system is that it can be compresssed.
<OvenWerks> This doesn't help the main part of packages which are already compressed, but there are a lot of parts that are not too.
<OvenWerks> Also, it is better to DL one file than many as the transfer startup can be a significant portion of the DL time.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer:  or are you saying that a ubuntu iso and ubuntustudio ISO would do the job?
<Eickmeyer> Not exactly. I'm saying that one can configure any flavor to install the ISO to a USB drive with said drive containing a persistence partition for anything they add.
<OvenWerks> I am getting odd text messages from my son. They went to the hospital last night... then were told to go for a walk... just got a message saying "out"???
<Eickmeyer> My guess is out of the hospital, which seems like a good sign.
<OvenWerks> I would have expected a "it's a boy/girl" kind of message actually...
<OvenWerks> out kind of means not yet I think.
<Eickmeyer> Oh! I didn't know they were expecting!
<OvenWerks> Ya, my second grandchild
<Eickmeyer> Nice! So, any day now?
<OvenWerks> "out means she's out" "11:58"
<OvenWerks> I guess it is another girl
<Eickmeyer> Nice! Congratulations!
<OvenWerks> Than you
<OvenWerks> Makes up for the past two months
<OvenWerks> (and then some)
<Eickmeyer> Absolutely. :)
<Eickmeyer> So, I imagine you're probably going to be heading East sometime soon to visit.
<OvenWerks> Probably not, The banki account just doesn't have the room
<Eickmeyer> I see. I'm still trying to figure out how I'm going to fly to Texas for my sis-in-law's wedding. My FIL is paying for my wife & son, who are in the wedding, but I have to pay my own way.
<OvenWerks> My family would be cranky about just me going...
<OvenWerks> But maybe by August we can make it.
<Eickmeyer> That's when we're heading to Texas.
<OvenWerks> (one seat on four different planes with on sale seats)
<Eickmeyer> As a former airline employee, right now would be the time to buy since it's just barely far enough in advance to get the good deals.
<Eickmeyer> (I'm a former airline employee).
<OvenWerks> I have gotten the best deals when I need to fly tomorrow
<OvenWerks> worst flights and worst seats though
<OvenWerks> But still better than regular with compasionate discount
<OvenWerks> In our case it would have to be last minute anyway. That is when we would know we have the ability to pay.
<Eickmeyer> Yeah.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-04-10
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Do we have anything to add to the release notes? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DiscoDingo/ReleaseNotes/UbuntuStudio
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: I don't know if it is worth mentioning that -controls is now the prefered method of starting jack or not.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: That might be good, and I thought we did that for 18.10, but it's not bad to reiterate.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: people may question the line: "If you need Long Term Support, it is recommended you use Ubuntu Studio Bionic 18.04 instead."
<OvenWerks> As 18.04 was not released as LTS
<OvenWerks> I think it is right though
<OvenWerks> because the repos are lts
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Maybe modify it to be "If you need Long Term Support, it is recommended you use Ubuntu Studio Bionic 18.04 with the Ubuntu Studio Backports PPA."
<OvenWerks> Sure. Speaking of which, if jackd2.0 comes out any time soon, it should be there too
<Eickmeyer> Agreed. I think if it gets synced for EE, then we can backport it, but I hope we don't end up in dependency hell for that.
<OvenWerks> (I can't remember if Falktx has released it or not)
<Eickmeyer> Something like jackd2.0 would end up in Debian first.
<OvenWerks> Jackd 2.0 is supposed to add any bits jackd1 has to jackd 2
<Eickmeyer> Interesting, so backwards compatibility (finally).
<OvenWerks> meta data, zita-ajbridge internally, etc
<Eickmeyer> That would be good to have that running under one process as opposed to a cluster of external bridges.
<OvenWerks> I don't think the internal zita-ajbridge will really help us... maybe.
<OvenWerks> A plugged in USB device would still need an external bridge I think
<Eickmeyer> You mean if hotplugged?
<OvenWerks> jackd1 needs the bridge to be a part of the command line. maybe jackd2 will allow loading it after startup
<OvenWerks> yes if hotplugged... even if not hotplugged, we want jack to keep running if the USB mic is unplugged
<OvenWerks> Internal devices that can't be hot (un)plugged are ok.
<Eickmeyer> Ok
 * Eickmeyer is keeping a close eye on #ubuntu-release for the RC.
 * OvenWerks has had more trouble with USB unplugging than the plugin.
<OvenWerks> it seems unplugging a USB device freezes/zommbifys/whatever jackd before I can change the master device.
<OvenWerks> So I have to kill -9 jackd before changing devices in that case
<OvenWerks> In fact changing master devices on the fly has become less stable in the last jackd release.
<OvenWerks> Even with the devices plugged in and running, switching from one to the other only works one or two times and then mucks jack up.
<Eickmeyer> Yikes. Should we put that in the release notes (which I just updated big-time, btw): https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DiscoDingo/ReleaseNotes/UbuntuStudio
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: I don't think so. SM is not something a lot of people use ;)
<OvenWerks> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DiscoDingo/ReleaseNotes/UbuntuStudio seems to be confused as to what release 19.02 is C or D
<OvenWerks> It says "Getting Ubuntu Studio Cosmic Cuttlefish (19.04)"
<Eickmeyer> Thanks for that catch. Fixed.
<OvenWerks> right after it says: "Release Notes for Ubuntu Studio 19.04 Disco Dingo"
<OvenWerks> looks good.
<Eickmeyer> Cool. I'll probably be able to put a strikethru on the part about Ubiquity real soon since Ross and I fixed that, with Carlos Lobrano and the upstream developer's help.
<OvenWerks> for: "NOTE: Derivitives of Ubuntu (Linux Mint, Kali Linux, etc.) are not supported." does that mean they are known not to work? That they have not been tried? That they likely work but don't ask help? ;)
<Eickmeyer> They haven't been tested, and don't ask for help.
<Eickmeyer> Basically, you're welcome to try it, but you're on your own.
<OvenWerks> About what I thought. I expect it would for the  most part work with vanilla debian too.
<OvenWerks> derivitives should just work but are often one or more cycles behind, sometime based on the last LTS plus one cycle
<Eickmeyer> I just don't think it's something we have the resources to handle.
<OvenWerks> right. I am not saying we should support it at all... though if someone asked about one of the dirivitives simply says the backports are valid starting based on ubuntustudio lts life
<OvenWerks> they can figure out what they are using and do as they wish.
<OvenWerks> but the statement "Not supported" is correct.
<OvenWerks> krytarik: FYI, "Boost" is not turned off by default, but can be turned off (for better low latency performance) with -controls.
<OvenWerks> krytarik: however, the boost speed will generally not show up unless the cpu is pushed quite hard.
<krytarik> So there is switch for it in Controls too but they've overlooked it?
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-04-11
<OvenWerks> for example, my i5 rated at 3.2Ghz will run at 3.4Ghz with all 4 cores running at 100% with the odd core bouncing up towards max boost. Temperature keeps it from running higher
<OvenWerks> krytarik:  yes there is. I am not sure which version it first showed up on though
<OvenWerks>  I have been running a version quite far ahead of the released versions for some time due to the time it took us to finally get things released. (someone with upload rights)
<krytarik> Yeah, I've read that yesterday.
<OvenWerks> In any case the person you were talking to yesterday (or before?) seemed to think performance turned boost off which is not true.
<krytarik> Yeah.
<OvenWerks> If they are not seeing boost working it is probably because they are not running their machine hard enough.
<OvenWerks> Building Ardour is 4 cores at 100% for about 15 minutes straight
<OvenWerks> This is quite a good test of such things
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-04-12
<OvenWerks> It seems we are missing gmsynth which Ardour from ardour org comes with. Gmsynth is like a-fluidsynth with a SF preloaded.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Yeah, I saw that (but stayed out of the conversation). Looks like it's not available in Debian, which is a problem. It would need to be packaged in Debian for the Ardour in Debian to be packaged against it to trickle-down to us.
<Eickmeyer> This might be a job for Ross.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: There is a problem with it for debian (likely licencing)
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: I don't see a problem with licensing as I look at Robin's github repo. It's GPLv2, which means all that's in it must be GPLv2-compatible.
<OvenWerks> The sound font has it's own licence
<OvenWerks> See the readme in the sf directory
<Eickmeyer> Yeah, I just looked. That license is compatible with the GPL.
<Eickmeyer> It just looks like nobody has bothered to package it.
 * Eickmeyer might even ask Robin
<Eickmeyer> I mean, it's worth a shot.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: I guess if people really need gmsynth they can get the directly-compiled Ardour.
<Eickmeyer> At least, until it can get sorted upstream.
<OvenWerks> or... backports
 * Eickmeyer shudders at the thought of taking-on maintenance of Ardour
<OvenWerks> The thing is, it is really only useful to the same person who would find getting it from ardour.org painful
<Eickmeyer> Where I'm at with it right now is that we don't directly maintain Ardour. This would be taking that on indefinitely.
<OvenWerks> I would even be happy if a-fluidsynth could set to auto load one of our sound fonts
<OvenWerks> (or and fs plugin)
<OvenWerks> The biggest problem with FS is it doesn't look in the right place for sound fonts by default
<OvenWerks>  The calf variant looks in the user's home directory... maybe the ubuntu version should be patched to have it default to where the system Soundfonts are
<Eickmeyer> If we take this on, it could be mutually beneficial. Robin wouldn't have to go through Debian since he has direct access to us, and we have direct access to him.
<Eickmeyer> We could make things "just work".
<Eickmeyer> (tm)
<OvenWerks> So far as I know it is basically the same as avldrums
<OvenWerks> Just a different font
<Eickmeyer> Okay. So, would we have to take on Ardour or would this just be gmsynth?
<OvenWerks> just gmsynth
<OvenWerks> I don't want to do the kxstudio thing (offer the DL package from ardour.org)
<Eickmeyer> Okay. In that case, I'll work on getting it packaged. It'll probably be a week or two, but I might be able to get something dirty (ala lsp-plugins) this weekend.
<Eickmeyer> It'd be in Autobuilds.
<Eickmeyer> Though, with RC around the corner (we're in Final Freeze right now), things are a little busy. :)
<Eickmeyer> Speaking of which, have you tested the latest daily?
<OvenWerks> doesn't have to be done right now.
<OvenWerks> I haven't really done anything computer for a few weeks
<OvenWerks> uptime says: up 51 days
 * Eickmeyer slow claps
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-04-13
<OvenWerks> who reads wikis though ;)
<Eickmeyer> Haha!
<Eickmeyer> They already said they were looking into it. :D
<Eickmeyer> Just made a new factoid for !cadence, Waiting on hggdh to add it.
<Eickmeyer> If he does.
<Eickmeyer> M_aD: Welcome!
<M_aD> thanks :)
<Eickmeyer> !cadence | OvenWerks 
<ubottu> OvenWerks: Cadence is an application for managing Jack in KXStudio and its repositories. Due to the nature of its intrusive configuration, it causes compatibility issues with Ubuntu's audio configuration, particularly !ubuntustudio-controls. For this reason, adding the KXStudio repos to any Ubuntu install is highly discouraged.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: How do you feel about changing the version numbers for our ubuntustudio-* packages to match with the current release? Like, controls 1.8 would become 19.10, etc.?
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: what do you do if you have a bugfix inbetween? maybe more than one?
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: That's easy. 19.10.x
<Eickmeyer> So, you'd really start with 19.10.0 and work up from there.
<Eickmeyer> I have been seeing other flavors do the same with their versioning, and it seems to make sense.
<OvenWerks> So after 1904 releases, the next release is 19.10?
<Eickmeyer> Yes.
<Eickmeyer> !yymm
<Eickmeyer> !yy.mm
<ubottu> Ubuntu version numbers are: YY.MM (YY=release year,MM=release month). Each year sees two releases, so just specifying YY is imprecise. See also https://www.ubuntu.com/about/release-cycle
<Eickmeyer> I know you knew that, but that's the ! command.
<OvenWerks> So long as it doesn't cause trouble with the PTB I don't really care. It does take away some of the sense of how old the package is
<Eickmeyer> Isn't that what changelogs are for?
<OvenWerks> Anyway, I am not worried one way or the other... setting the version is the uploaders job ;)
<Eickmeyer> Yeah, that's true. :)
<OvenWerks> It would be easier to remember what feature was added when too.
<Eickmeyer> That's generally my motivation. Makes support easier.
<OvenWerks> A problem I can see is that the 19.* would appear twice in the package file name
<OvenWerks> Would a user think "oh I acn't use 19.10 in my 18.04 install because it won't work"
<Eickmeyer> !info ubuntustudio-default-settings
<ubottu> ubuntustudio-default-settings (source: ubuntustudio-default-settings): default settings for the Ubuntu Studio desktop. In component universe, is optional. Version 0.65 (disco), package size 39 kB, installed size 219 kB
<Eickmeyer> Are you referring to backports?
<OvenWerks> yes
<Eickmeyer> I shouldn't think so. Version numbers are pretty arbitrary.
<OvenWerks> 1.7~ubuntu18.10.1
<Eickmeyer> ^ That only applies to Autobuilds.
<OvenWerks> (for -controls)
<OvenWerks> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-ppa/+archive/ubuntu/backports
<Eickmeyer> Oh, I guess it would apply to backports too.
<OvenWerks> Still if other people are doing it, that should be ok.
<Eickmeyer> Well, then the version number would be (for Bionic backports) 19.10.0~ubuntu18.04.1
<Eickmeyer> Yeah.
<OvenWerks> The user needs to think of upgrading to the 19.10 version that is ok too.
<Eickmeyer> 19.10.0~ubuntu18.04.1
<Eickmeyer>  ^Version          ^ What it's built against
<Eickmeyer> So, the important thing to match is the last number.
<Eickmeyer> Also, look at KDE Apps. The version number is 18.12 landing in 19.04.
<Eickmeyer> (Not plasma, but the apps)
<OvenWerks> I would suggest yy.mm.sub
<OvenWerks> so the mm may not match with a cycle release
<Eickmeyer> .sub?
<OvenWerks> sub release
<Eickmeyer> Oh, yes. That's why I said 19.10.x
<Eickmeyer> That way, if there are any bugfixes after upload, they can be the .x number.
<OvenWerks> Anyway, Like I said, whatever the UL decides to do is fine by me.
<Eickmeyer> Ok
<Eickmeyer> I might run it past Ross and see what he thinks.
<OvenWerks> Question: after 19.04 is released, 19.10 gets released... say in about 19.06. Then more work is done and they are also ready to release before 19.10 what is that called?
<OvenWerks> or do they remain beta till cycle beta2 is past and then jump to 20.04 for new features?
<Eickmeyer> It would be 19.06, but that doesn't fit the release schedule.
<Eickmeyer> Beta 2 isn't a thing anymore...
<OvenWerks> Till FF then
<Eickmeyer> Okay. So, the only way a 19.06 would happen is if 19.04 got delayed until June.
<Eickmeyer> Releases are never early for Ubuntu.
<Eickmeyer> So, if 19.10 wasn't released until 20.04... I don't konw.
<OvenWerks> I thik I am not being clear
<Eickmeyer> I think the TB would be making that call.
<Eickmeyer> Yeah, I'm confused.
<OvenWerks>  I am saying that rather than releasing a package inbetween cycles it may be best to keep them unreleased until FF
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: I completely agree with that.
<OvenWerks> So they are available in autobuilds before that.
<Eickmeyer> The yy.mm is the target, not necessarily when it's actually released (for packages, not for Ubuntu itself).
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Yes.
<OvenWerks> I think that should work fine.
<Eickmeyer> The only reason we released anything into Backports early was because it was work-in-progress.
<Eickmeyer> Cool.
<Eickmeyer> I consider our backports to be stable at the moment, in terms of changes.
<OvenWerks> Things have been a bit odd because installer and controls are almost like new apps and give a huge jump in feature
<Eickmeyer> Right. 
<OvenWerks> Things will prob slow down now
<Eickmeyer> We did two years' worth of updates and consolidated it into one.
<Eickmeyer> I think if we did the metapackage parsing you were talking about for -installer, that would be good for 19.10 so we can squash bugs for 20.04.
<Eickmeyer> And any improvements to -controls.
<Eickmeyer> I'll work on theming bugs and plugin packaging.
<Eickmeyer> Perhaps another wallpaper contest for 19.10 for wallpapers to land in 19.10 and 20.04.
 * Eickmeyer might even bug eylul- for a fancy new 20.04 wallpaper :)
<M_aD> Honestly, i think it's time to get rid of that dark default wallpaper :)
<OvenWerks> While backdrops are one of the first things I change when I install, Dark and relatively non-busy are what many artists prefer.
<OvenWerks> The other thing to remember, is that we want a business to feel comfortable leaving the backdrop as is in their studio if it is music of a portrait shop
<OvenWerks> In the end, it does depend on what various artists come up with
<Eickmeyer> M_aD: Have you seen the new default wallpaper for 19.04?
<M_aD> this one? http://ubuntustudio.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/1fe8/ubuntustudio_disco_dingo_1080.jpg
<Eickmeyer> M_aD: Yep. Except it's in 4k from the repo.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks, M_aD, sakrecoer: If any of you (or anyone reading this) are around, we have pre-RC images.
<Eickmeyer> https://discourse.ubuntu.com/t/disco-disco-19-04-release-candidate-testing/10570
<Eickmeyer> Images at http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntustudio/dvd/20190413.1/
<Eickmeyer> I'll be shooting an email to the -devel list.
 * OvenWerks is DL the image. but doesn't know when he will be able to try it.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-04-14
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: I'm trying it right now. So far it looks pretty good.
<Eickmeyer> Annnd it passed tests with flying colors.
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> @Sakrecoer, @azbulutlu: If either of you wants to join the party, have at it: http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/milestones/403/builds
<M_aD> Eickmeyer: downloading now
<M_aD> Eickmeyer: the wallpaper seems to be a bit off https://i.postimg.cc/rFKPJ3fj/wallapaperubust.png
<M_aD> bbl, doing a real install of 19.04
<M_aD> i'm back, looking good so far
<M_aD> except that i was wondering why the superkey hasn't been asigned as shortcut to open the whisker menu. Is it something we can add for the next release or do i need to report it to the xubuntu team?
<bluesabre> M_aD: I think the reason we (xubuntu) haven't is that xfce keyboard shortcuts happen on keydown... so existing Super shortcuts would not be able to trigger unless your pressed both at exactly the same time
<M_aD> so that's why ctrl + escape has been set as shortcut
<M_aD> bluesabre: ok, makes sense :)
<bluesabre> glad to help :)
<M_aD> thanks
<M_aD> little annoyance with 19.04, once the laptop screen turns blank or switches off it doesn't wake up anymore
<Eickmeyer> M_aD: The wallpaper was developed for 16:9 screens, your screen appears to be 3:2. Unfortunately, it's too late to do anything about that.
<Eickmeyer> M_aD: As far as the wake-from-sleep issues, please file a bug and log that bug in the bug tracker.
<M_aD> Eickmeyer: re wallpaper, ok, no problem. re bug report i guess that's on launchpad?
<Eickmeyer> M_aD: Yeah, or in this case (since that seems to be a kernel issue), open a terminal and type "ubuntu-bug linux". It will collect information that way and post the bug report.
<Eickmeyer> It'll eventually want a launchpad sign-in.
<M_aD> thanks
 * OvenWerks needs to study shortcuts more... cause he knows lots of people use them even if he doesn't
<M_aD> superkey shortcut is actually the only one i use to open the menu
<OvenWerks> M_aD: ok, that confuses me. whisker (or the old menu) are not that easy to navigate with keyboard... so short cut then mouse? or am I missing something?
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: suggest we add a conflicts libremenu and alacart to ubuntustudio-menu
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: I see that one of the things people like to do is add a menu item. This is not a whole hog menu editor. Perhaps we could create a menu item creator...
 * OvenWerks is aware that there is a commandline utility to do exactly that xdg-desktop-icon maybe?
<OvenWerks> nope. xdg-desktop-menu
<OvenWerks> Actually that would not help. It is for install use. You have to already have the desktop file.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: So, add conflicts or not?
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: yes but not before release. And we should create a menu add item applet.
<OvenWerks> Similar to the xfce4 pannel add item
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-04-06
<josefvin> Hello! Looking at giving 20.04 beta a spin. Really glad to hear of the revival of this project as I last tried studio on 18.04 and was a little disappointed... Rededicating free time to include music practice and production and wanna support if I can :) I am also a devops engineer with a background in test automation if there is any use for those
<josefvin> skills
<Eickmeyer> josefvin: Are you looking to test it for now?
<josefvin> Not sure I understand your question.
<josefvin> I'll install and try things out and submit any issues I find. Haven't read through all of the contribution docs yet or anything. Happy to submit issues pre or post release and or answer support questions if I can.
<Eickmeyer> I mean, you want to give 20.04 beta a spin. Would you be interested in also downloading/testing the daily images? We have a testing week in progress at the moment.
<josefvin> Sure, I will be glad to check out the daily images. When does the test week end?
<Eickmeyer> josefvin: Check this out: http://ubuntustudio.org/2020/03/ubuntu-studio-20-04-testing-week/
<Eickmeyer> We've got a lot of activity going on in #ubuntu-quality if you wanna hop in there and discuss all the things.
<Eickmeyer> As far as automated testing, teward and I were talking about getting some sort of CI set up in the future, so we can definitely use help with that.
<josefvin> Ahh great timing! I will check out the #ubuntu-quality channel and go from there. Thanks!
<Eickmeyer> No problem. Thanks for being willing!
<teward> well we'll have to be picky about the CI
<teward> we can't run *everything* lest we run into the evil Lubuntu just ran into
<Eickmeyer> We'll have to remember to clear stuff out.
<teward> or set it up properly.
<teward> but that's a thing for the future heh
<Eickmeyer> Exactly. ERR:NotAPriority
<Eickmeyer> I got some positive feedback from RAOF (tag unintentional) about the lsp-plugins issue, teward.
<Eickmeyer> josefvin: Another thing, you said you'd e cool wit answering support quetions as they arise?
<josefvin> Help
<Eickmeyer[m]> josefvin: Help?
<studiobot> <teward001> they departed on IRC
<studiobot> <teward001> was just about to ask em what they needed help with
<studiobot> <teward001> *salts Eickmeyer for reasons*
 * Eickmeyer[m] vinegars @teward001 because acid
<Eickmeyer[m]> I mean... uh...
<studiobot> <teward001> lol
<Eickmeyer[m]> RAOF: You rock. Your suggestion completely fixed the issue. Next upload of this package (probably after GG opens) will have a new package for the common library and allow for more common libraries if they ever occur in the package.
<RAOF> Glad to be of assistance!
<Christoffer[m]> I've come to shoot aliens and chew bubblegum, but I'm all out of bubble gum. How may I be of service.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Christoffer: I just woke up, so give me a little while. I think I have a plan for you. :)
<studiobot> <teward001> Eickmeyer has other things to complete first
<studiobot> <teward001> *throws Eickmeyer into the DMB pit re: application*
<Eickmeyer[m]> ERR:NeedCoffee
<Christoffer[m]> I'm not in a hurry or anything heheh
<studiobot> <teward001> doesn't help I keep stealing Eickmeyer for other things :P
 * Eickmeyer[m] is also catching up on a plethora of emails he's received
<Christoffer[m]> One thing that should be addressed for Ubuntu Studio is a page for press and media with information, pictures and brand assets.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Christoffer: So, here's what I'm thinking: I'd like to give you access to the Facebook and Twitter accounts. I think you have the motivation to handle them. BUT, I do like that stuff handled a certain way.
<Eickmeyer[m]> I can make you an admin of the Facebook page if you're on there.
<Eickmeyer[m]> There's a page for brand assets.
<Eickmeyer[m]> It's in the wiki.
<Christoffer[m]> I'm not on Facebook personally, but I could make a dumb account
<Eickmeyer[m]> Then don't worry about it.
<Eickmeyer[m]> How about Twitter?
<Christoffer[m]> Ahh, I see
<Christoffer[m]> I don't have Twitter personally either
<Christoffer[m]> I only share my personal presence on the fediverse
<Eickmeyer[m]> Ohhhh....
<Christoffer[m]> Of the social media stuff
<Eickmeyer[m]> Well, I can't exactly give you the Mastodon account because that's not easily shared without the master password, and @azbulutlu handles that.
<Eickmeyer[m]> And we don't really share the master passwords.
<Christoffer[m]> Yeah, I understand. I don't need to have direct access to the media profiles to do my work, although it will make less hassle
<Eickmeyer[m]> I can make you team member on Twitter if you had a Twitter account, same with Facebook.
<Christoffer[m]> I'll make a dumb account for both
<Eickmeyer[m]> Ok.
<Christoffer[m]> Twitter is @namnesen 
<Christoffer[m]> Facebook is taking a bit longer, IDK why but the phone confirmation thing is taking it's time
<Christoffer[m]> There, this is the dumb facebook account https://www.facebook.com/namn.namnesen.3
<Eickmeyer[m]> Christoffer: You're now added as an editor to the FB page and a contributor to the Twitter account. You'll need to do it from tweetdeck.twitter.com
<Christoffer[m]> I see.
<Christoffer[m]> BTW. Here is my email for important matters art@christalleras.no if you want it. Not that I'm not accessible here, but then you guys will have a certain way of getting in contact with me.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Christoffer: Perfect. Just let me know when/what you plan on posting before you post it. For a little while, I want to be able to review what you have. Feel free to ping me here with what you want to post. :)
<Christoffer[m]> Yeah, with how I do things I usually plan content for a whole week and such. But there are some important questions! I take it we don't have a communication strategy, personas and the like. That's something I'd like to start with before anything.
<Christoffer[m]> I'm also having a hard time finding the press kit. Having it accessible on the about page would be superb.
<Christoffer[m]> And do we have any design guide and stuff? Need to know brand colors, fonts and the like.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Christoffer: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Artwork/UserShowcase
<Eickmeyer[m]> That gives you almost everything.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Font is the Ubuntu font.
<Eickmeyer[m]> The svg assets are here: https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-art/ubuntustudio-artwork/+git/current-standard
<Christoffer[m]>  * Yeah, with how I do things I usually plan content for a whole week and such. But there are some important questions! I take it we don't have a communication strategy, personas and the like. That's something I'd like to start with before anything.
<Christoffer[m]> I'm also having a hard time finding the press kit. Having it accessible on the about page would be superb. (Here is an example of Ubuntu's press kit even though it looks less than ideal https://ubuntu.com/blog/press-centre lol)
<Christoffer[m]> I see, this is super helpfull for me
<Christoffer[m]> I'm not too familiar with code.launchpad but I'll try to wrap my head around it as soon as possible
<Eickmeyer[m]> Oh! Anything that gets tweeted on Twitter automatically gets tooted on Mastodon.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Christoffer: This should make that easier: https://git.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-art/ubuntustudio-artwork/+git/current-standard/tree/\
<Eickmeyer[m]> oops...
<Eickmeyer[m]> https://git.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-art/ubuntustudio-artwork/+git/current-standard/tree/
<Christoffer[m]> Ahh, I see!
<Eickmeyer[m]> Click on an asset, the click on "plain" and it will download that asset.
<Christoffer[m]> Ah, thanks!
<Christoffer[m]> Looking into the wiki a bit more I see there is a PR & support page but it has no content other than "pr and support home."
<Christoffer[m]> But my input on it is that making an extra press page that is within Ubuntu Studio would be superb, maybe it can be drop downed under about. Page could contain the contact information of the person who responds to press & media, a couple of pictures and screenshots, logo and branding stuff so it's accessible for journalists and the like so there is a much higher likely hood of someone making an article or
<Christoffer[m]> something on Ubuntu studio, but also the article will then look that much better.
<Christoffer[m]> You can do what you will with the input but I'll happily help out with this in any way possible.
<Christoffer[m]>  * But my input on it is that making an extra press page that is within Ubuntu Studio's website would be superb, maybe it can be drop downed under about. Page could contain the contact information of the person who responds to press & media, a couple of pictures and screenshots, logo and branding stuff so it's accessible for journalists and the like so there is a much higher likely hood of someone making an
<Christoffer[m]> article or something on Ubuntu studio, but also the article will then look that much better.
<Christoffer[m]> You can do what you will with the input but I'll happily help out with this in any way possible.
<Eickmeyer[m]> I'd rather it be a wiki page. There is a LOT to clean up on the wiki that my predecessor's predecessor was trying to do, which I have the feeling led to his eventual burnout.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Rather, he wasn't cleaning it up, but adding to it.
<Christoffer[m]> I see
<Christoffer[m]> I'm not against it being on the wiki as long as it's far from grasp when entering the main website
<Christoffer[m]>  * I'm not against it being on the wiki as long as it's NOT far from grasp when entering the main website
<Eickmeyer[m]> We can make a new page somewhere that links to it. Perhaps in the sidebar on the "news" page.
<Christoffer[m]> Yeah! That's a great idea
<Eickmeyer[m]> So, all you need to edit the Wiki is an Ubuntu SSO account, which isn't hard to get (you don't even need to be a member). Feel free to use those assets to make a page on the wiki under https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio. BTW, the wiki predates the website, so there's a lot of ancient stuff there.
<Eickmeyer[m]> In fact, at first, Ubuntu Studio only existed as a wiki page with instructions.
<Christoffer[m]> Cool
<Christoffer[m]> Is the "PR" in "PR & Support" something else than I think it is by chance?
<Christoffer[m]> But if it is ment for press & media I could add stuff there maybe
<Eickmeyer[m]> I'll let you take over that area. Feel free to update the living snot out of that.
<Christoffer[m]> heheeh
<Eickmeyer[m]> The team members listed on there aren't even involved anymore. :P
<Christoffer[m]> Aiaiai, I'll need to make changes to that then
 * OvenWerks wonders what team members are
<Eickmeyer[m]> OvenWerks: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/PRSupportTeamPage
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[m]: it was meant tongue in cheek
<Eickmeyer[m]> Ohhhhhh... :P
 * Eickmeyer[m] is slow this morning, juggling this with homeschooling
 * OvenWerks son has a virtual class in 15 min.
<Christoffer[m]> I'm logged in but it doesn't let me edit the PR & support page :curious:
<Christoffer[m]>  * I'm logged in but it doesn't let me edit the PR & support page ð¤
<Eickmeyer[m]> That's odd. What's your launchpad?
<Christoffer[m]> Oh, I'm probably just not knowledgable enough with wiki stuff
<Christoffer[m]> It just seemed intuitive to me that the edit thing at the right would be the thing
<Eickmeyer[m]> Well, I'll admit. The Ubuntu wiki isn't intuitive and has a steep learning curve as its markdown syntax isn't standard.
<Christoffer[m]> Oh darn
<Christoffer[m]> I'm logged in to both ubuntu studio wiki and the launchpad but I have no idea what I have to do to start editing
<Christoffer[m]>  * I'm logged in to both ubuntu studio wiki and the launchpad but I have no idea what I have to do to start edits for you guys to approve
<Eickmeyer[m]> Christoffer: I trust you on the wiki. If I see anything that doesn't quite look right, I'll fix it myself. Tag me when you're done.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Christoffer: I added you to the documentation team.
<Christoffer[m]> Cool
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> hi Christoffer[m] nice to see you on the team. *tries desperately to remember what we did last time. Eickmeyer I believe we need to add him to the social@ubuntustudio.org alias?
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> let me see what we did on that
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Well, we could, and that would give him the emails, but in terms of sending toots, that's done automatically with Twitter, iirc.
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> I mean, I have no problem adding him to the social groupl.
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> if he can create a pgp key on his launchpad I can share the key with him via email. if there is a better way to do it i cannot think of it, off the top off my head.
<Christoffer[m]> Hi, Azbulutlu!
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> hi
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> (this is Eylul from mastodon btw)
<Christoffer[m]> BTW, I'm finding it overly hard to figure out how I get to edit the wiki-page. But I'll work on the information for the page in the meantime and find out the rest later.
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> @azbulutlu I'm having trouble finding the Ubuntu Studio Social team? I thought we made one.
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> we did make one. hang on
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> (I should probably change my username on telegram at some point. this one is bound to eventually cause some confusion)
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> ....this possibly? https://launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-public-relations/+members
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> I look member of this and also NOT member of this. launchpad is confusing
<Christoffer[m]> Ahh, I see
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> actually no this is very old
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> ok note to self, we need to document this at some point
<Christoffer[m]> Long time no see
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> indeed. I do need to email you at some point btw. about the podcast thing
<Christoffer[m]> Okay! Just send it to art@christalleras.no
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> @azbulutlu [....this possibly? https://launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-public-relations/+members], I don't think that was it?
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Maybe it was something I did in my mind.
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> actually WAIT
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> it wasn't a launchpad group I think
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> it could be a mailing list?
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> that's what they did, create a mailing list.
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Could be?
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Ah, yes. That's what it was.
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> let me see hang on
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> this is embarassing. it wasn't even too long ago xD
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Right?!? lol
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> I have about 5 minutes then I have to go run an errand with my son.
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> I don't have a lot of time either but let me see if I can find it
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> there is no listen mailing list. and I cannot find the password for it either. hang on let me try to go through my emails and find what we ended up doing for this. arrgh
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> It's social@ubuntustudio.org
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Adding people requires an RT ticket. :P
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> @eickmeyer.. yeah https://rt.ubuntu.com/Ticket/Display.html?id=33588
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> I'll see if I can create a team with that email address when I get back. Might be a couple hours.
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> they gave us the option to make a launchpad ml, but I remember us deciding against it because we weren't sure that there would be an archive, and if that would be a safety issue
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> I think at this point any archive items wouldn't be an issue.
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Anyhow, gotta go for now. I'll be back later, but you might be in bed @azbulutlu .
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> Christoffer[m] if you can email me at one of my emails, signed with PGP key, that will go a lot better, i cannot send you the password in plaintext.
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> bye @eickmeyer
<Christoffer[m]> @azbulutlu I don't have any of your emails and it's not accessible on your website :( 
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> oh sorry. eylul at ubuntustudio.org would be the best.
<Christoffer[m]> ahh, thanks
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> my bad, I thought the email address at mastodon was visible
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> :)
<Christoffer[m]> This is my draft of the press kit https://pad.riseup.net/p/vphkZc1bYTt-ARBB-H5Z
<Christoffer[m]> IDK whp is the PR contact
<Christoffer[m]>  * IDK who is the PR contact person. Please edit and add to it however one wants
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> Christoffer I do need your public key to encrypt the password information and send it to you.
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> yo:)
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> :) *
<Christoffer[m]> Oh, I see
<Christoffer[m]> Password for what?
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> alternatively if you can think of another way to securely share the key I am open to the idea
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> mastodon is the problem
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> we cannot just add people to a team, like we do on other social media
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> key -> password
<Christoffer[m]> Oh, I thought I wasn't going to have access to it
<Christoffer[m]> Because sharing the password and such
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> I thought eickmeyer wanted me to give you the access to it... *is now also confused*
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> "<Eickmeyer[m]> Well, I can't exactly give you the Mastodon account because that's not easily shared without the master password, and @azbulutlu handles that."
<Christoffer[m]> I don't necessarilly need access to it anyway
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> I'd rather eventually have everyone on the PR team accessing it.
<Christoffer[m]> But Facebook, Twitter and Mastodon are all our platforms right?
<Christoffer[m]>  * But Facebook, Twitter and Mastodon are all the platforms right?
<Christoffer[m]> Ahh, we can maybe fix it later then
<Christoffer[m]> I intend to have GPG stuff fixed anyway
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> I'll talk to him when he gets back and figure out who understood him correctly rofl :)
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> yes
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> well I also need to redo my GPG too, as I need to dig up my keys. (I had to do an emergency re-install a few weeks ago)  In that case I'll go back to slide preparation and deal with it tomorrow. :)
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> do you still need help with login to the wiki btw?
<Christoffer[m]> But if you guys want to have a social media strategy I'll happily join a Jitsi meeting or something where we can establish 4 personas and a couple of more things when people have time
<Christoffer[m]> I'm logged in to the wiki, but can't for the life of me understand how to edit it hehhe
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> *laughs* hang on let me see what is broken
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> it might not be you at all
<OvenWerks> also when going back to the page you wish to edit after logging in it seemed to me a page refresh was needed
 * OvenWerks found wiki editing really not obvious
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> Christoffer[m] just to test can you edit this page. also, on that tiny menu above (immutable page / info, subscribe/attachments/more actions/login  etc
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> do you see login or yourname/logout/help
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> at the end
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> the wiki can hiccup sometimes
<Christoffer[m]> Ahhh
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> also generally if you haven't gone through an ubuntu one login, something is probably not working right. it shoudl redirect you to ubuntu one login, and that will give you the correct permissions I believe.
<Christoffer[m]> I can see the login and my username, I also have acces to "more actions"
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> and if your last login was before eickmeyer added you to the documentation team, it might require a logout and a re-login
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> what happens if you press "login"
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> ?
<Christoffer[m]> And on the page to the right on certain pages there is a (edit) but it just says i don't have access
<Christoffer[m]> But that might not be the right edit thing?
<Christoffer[m]> Eyy
<Christoffer[m]> now I got a lot more permissions!
<Christoffer[m]> Logging in and out worked!
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> hehe
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> you probably logged in before you got the permissions
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> alright. I need to go deal with class things for real now. feel free to holler for emergencies.
<Christoffer[m]> TBH I don't feel to comfertable editing with this wiki thing. I think I already messed something up.
<Christoffer[m]> Not a biggie, but the PR & support page probably has a different adress, didn't think that would happen. So now when clicking PR & support it goes to no page
<Christoffer[m]> I feel like this wiki kind of sets a high bar for it being edited lol
<Christoffer[m]>  * I feel like this wiki-program kind of sets a high bar for it being edited lol
<Christoffer[m]> I fixed it BTW
<Eickmeyer[m]> Christoffer: Don't worry about it. The pages all have history that can be accessed and reverted, kinda like git.
<Christoffer[m]> Good!
<Christoffer[m]> Are there any plans to update the "features" section of the website, a lot of the programs seems to outdated and particulary the images
<Eickmeyer[m]> Christoffer: Yeah, let me handle those images. One of those things where it's not 100% a priority.
<Christoffer[m]> ðï¸
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-04-07
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[m]: https://lists.linuxaudio.org/archives/linux-audio-announce/2020-April/002798.html
<Eickmeyer[m]> Interesting.
<OvenWerks> pretty exciting that someone has put that together
<OvenWerks> it has been stock macos and ios for years now
<Eickmeyer[m]> Yeah. When I was at my last job, we pretty much had mac/windows environments and I was starting to work on MIDI-IP stuff. This would've brought Linux into that mix.
<OvenWerks> linux has had ipmidi for a while
<Eickmeyer[m]> Right, but not really zeroconf.
<OvenWerks> qmidinet we have
<OvenWerks> right
<Eickmeyer[m]> What I'm saying is that this would've made it braindead-simple what I was working on.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Might be something worth including in 20.10.
<OvenWerks> yes, though probably with the right glue.
<OvenWerks> I will have to see.
<OvenWerks> I have been working on documentation for Ardour for all the stuff I added since 5.12
<OvenWerks> I thought I had been keeping up but didn't really think how my foldback stuff affected OSC
<Eickmeyer[m]> Do you think studio-controls could be that right glue?
<OvenWerks> I will need to try it out to really know
<OvenWerks>  I don't know the protocol well enough to know how automated it already is
<OvenWerks> It could be that if another computer sets up a connection, it just shows up in alsa or jack
<OvenWerks> I would at some point like to create a patch bay similar to patchage or Carla but have it show "possible" connections that are not on the jack grid yet (or alsa)
<Eickmeyer[m]> Interesting concept.
<Eickmeyer[m]> I'm sure Filipe would be OK with copying the code from Catia.
<OvenWerks> not just for rtpmidi, but also for USB audio devices that are not yet connected using zizta-ajbridge (there is a new version BTW) and AVB or aes 67 end points that are available but not yet connected.
<OvenWerks> in other words the discovery info of possible connections
<OvenWerks> The patch pannel would start the connecting SW at the time the connection was asked for.
<OvenWerks> and then connect it
<Eickmeyer[m]> That's a really cool concept.
<Eickmeyer[m]> If anyone can pull it off, it's you.
<OvenWerks> I would probably use the patchbay method used by Ardour (and many other patch bays) rather than patchage or qjackctl connections
<Eickmeyer[m]> That's fair. It's not a bad patchbay method. Patchage/Carla connections are easier for my head to wrap-around, personally, because I think in terms of connecting devices together.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[m]: they are both great for small numbers of ports
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[m]: have you tried to play with even a 10strip Ardour session using one of those patch bays?
<Eickmeyer[m]> That's true. When connecting a lot of ports at once, the Ardour method is better.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Hehe, I've done 32-strip.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Really, more like 36-strip after adding a few effects busses.
<OvenWerks> right, it is doable, but a lot of wires in patchage and a lot of scrolling in qjackctl
<Eickmeyer[m]> I don't touch qjackctl anymore. :P
<OvenWerks> but if you look at pretty much all of my sw, it is control stuff
<OvenWerks> I have not done any dsp for example
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Wishlist-item for Controls: a system tray indicator that shows Jack's state.
<Eickmeyer> Came up while your client was dead.
<OvenWerks>  :P
<studiobot> <teward001> Eickmeyer: https://askubuntu.com/questions/1225047/ubuntu-studio-20-04-firewire-compatibility relevant
<studiobot> <teward001> for your attention
<studiobot> <teward001> (I'mma close as Offtopic because 20.04 but something you might wnat to look at)
<OvenWerks> systray stuff was already hard the indicator stuff (when I looked at it) was to new to find reasonable documentation on it
<Eickmeyer> teward: We removed the non-ALSA firewire support, proved to be too problematic to support ancient, no-longer-being-produced devices.
<studiobot> <teward001> ack i'll write that reply
<OvenWerks> @teward001 I am already writing something
<Christoffer[m]> How is the team, who are the people and their positions or responsebillities. Who else does marketing/social media/communication for Ubuntu Studio?
<Eickmeyer> teward: Also, Ask Ubuntu is an official support channel for all flavors.
<studiobot> <teward001> @OvenWerks Eickmeyer already got it
<studiobot> <teward001> @Eickmeyer yes, I know.  I'm a moderator there
<studiobot> <teward001> *throws salt on you*
<studiobot> <teward001> but it's a 20.04 question ;)
<studiobot> <teward001> there's restrictions on those
<OvenWerks> @teward001: doesn't support means we can't help if you can't get it to work.
<studiobot> <teward001> @OvenWerks [<OvenWerks> @teward001: doesn't support means we can't help if you can't get it â¦], this is true, however that's also still irrelevant to MY point - an answer of "Firewire isn't supported anymore" is a valid answer in those cases
<Eickmeyer> Christoffer[m]: Marketing/social media/communication is mostly myself and @azbutlutlu.
<studiobot> <teward001> but it's a 20.04 question which is one we usually snipe :P
<studiobot> <teward001> but in this case it's able to be answered
<studiobot> <teward001> it showed up in the flags so :P
<studiobot> <teward001> (again I'm a moderator on Ask Ubuntu - I SEE YOUR IPS!)
<studiobot> <teward001> *shot*
<Eickmeyer> Weird flex, but ok
 * OvenWerks thinks he had a nicer answer.... but couldn't login
<Christoffer[m]> I see
<Christoffer[m]> I take it you are basically the community manager as well?
<Eickmeyer[m]> Christoffer: I'm the Project Leader.
<Eickmeyer[m]> In Ubuntu terms, I'm the flavor lead and point-of-contact.
<Eickmeyer[m]> That's mostly an intra-Ubuntu thing.
<Christoffer[m]> Eickmeyer
<Eickmeyer[m]> ....yes?
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> what eickmeyer is trying to say is that he is the communication with me trying to hold mastodon side upright and being second eyes on release notes or website related things when I can.
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> ^ Facts
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> that is pretty much the summary of the current situation on pr/communications
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> I also try to do or at least review art/design when I can. eickmeyer does leading and packaging he knows better than I who does what on technical side. (I only know owenwerks is basically THE ubuntustudio-controls. <3)
<studiobot> <teward001> i'm sort of the support role, testing, helping with packaging, sponsoring package uploads when people in the team don't have upload rights, etc.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Christoffer: ^
<studiobot> <teward001> but i also bother the heck out of Eickmeyer just because ;)
<Eickmeyer[m]> I'd consider OvenWerks the development lead.
<studiobot> <teward001> i agree with that
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> (Thomas thanks for graciously explaining that instead of laughing at me for still not having caught up to what is happening here)
<studiobot> <teward001> oh i'm laughing at you
<studiobot> <teward001> i'm just not making it known xD
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> fair enough xD
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Don't take it personally, @azbulutlu . @teward001 laughs at everytone and everything.
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> *everyone
<studiobot> <teward001> and sometimes I just rage at everyone too
<studiobot> <teward001> esp. on bad days :P
<studiobot> <teward001> but that's just me
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> ^ Facts
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> in all fairness I am laughing at myself. and lol
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> <3
<Christoffer[m]> ahh, that also does community management and social media
<Eickmeyer[m]> Christoffer: Does that help with what you need?
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> (also christoffer when you sort out the pgp thing do email me for the mastodon password.)
<Christoffer[m]> Ahh, I see
<Christoffer[m]> It's easier when one kind of know where people are at and stuff
<Christoffer[m]> I'll sort the email stuff soon^^
<Christoffer[m]> Who is the media contact?
<Christoffer[m]> I'm guessing it's you Eickmeyer
<Eickmeyer[m]> ERR:DrAppt
<Christoffer[m]> huh?
<Eickmeyer[m]> Christoffer: Yes, that's correct.
<Eickmeyer[m]> I have a telephone doctor appointment right now.
<Christoffer[m]> Okay
 * Christoffer[m] sent a long message:  < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/eOpUreunfudZVKFzbmspjBNX >
<Christoffer[m]> My conferance room tool of choice is Jitsi.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Well, I'm pretty much homeschoolilng my son at this point, so it's very difficult at this time.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Christoffer: for the Telegram bridge, you'll need to use a @ to ping them.
<Eickmeyer[m]> @azbulutlu ^
<Christoffer[m]> ah!
<Christoffer[m]> Thanks!
<Christoffer[m]> Yeah, it doesn't need to be as soon as possible, but I rather get the question out of the way.
<Christoffer[m]>  * Yeah, it doesn't need to be as soon as possible, just rather getting the question out of the way so I can move on.
<Eickmeyer[m]> If we can worry abou that stuff after the 20.04 release, I'd prefer it since we'll have some time between then and when GG opens.
<Christoffer[m]> Ah, i see
<Eickmeyer[m]> For now, do what you can on your own and present it to us then. Simply use good judgement. :)
<Christoffer[m]> Personally it would be the most superb to have it done before the release as the release is the biggest message to push and with a good strategy and plan one can enhance the engagement and reach. But I do acknowledge constraints and I trust in your judgement as the project leader.
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> also I just discovered I DO have a matrix account. trying very hard to get on devel channel via ther
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> there*
<Christoffer[m]> When it comes to what I can do on my own it's incredibly helpfull to have input from you guys to decide as i don't have a full picture and don't know what the team is going for. Like IDK if you guys think this and that group is something you want to go for. 
<Eickmeyer[m]> @azbulutlu check your invite. :)
<Eickmeyer[m]> YAY!
<Christoffer[m]> Eyy
<Eickmeyer[m]> eylul, Christoffer : You can transfer the password via direct message, just make sure it's encrypted using the direct message properties.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Nice little Matrix feature. :)
<Christoffer[m]> ð¥³
<Eickmeyer[m]> Ok. Looks like you're not bridged? Something's not right.
<Eickmeyer[m]> eylul: ^
<Eickmeyer[m]> You're not showing up on the IRC side.
<Eickmeyer[m]> I can invite you to a room to see why you're not bridging correctly.
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> I had joined as a guest that might be why
<Eickmeyer[m]> Ohhhh... yeah, maybe.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Doesn't look like it.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Can't see you in the IRC side. Can't see you on Telegram either.
<Eickmeyer[m]> I mean, I can see you on Telegram in IRC, just not your Matrix in IRC.
<Eickmeyer[m]> It might be because you have to authenticate to Freenode's nickserv.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Hehehe
<dax> shouldn't have any effect, since the IRC channel isn't +r
<Eickmeyer> dax: That's probably right.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Nope, didn't work.
<Eickmeyer[m]> I think it might be broken in the IRC bridge. Happened to me once before.
<dax> gotta love the matrix bridge
<dax> but yeah, my guess would be their IRC ghost user either didn't connect or didn't try joining for some reason
<Eickmeyer> dax: Most likely. I've had that happen and they had to fix it internally in the bridge.
 * OvenWerks finds IRC just works ;)
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: You say that repeatedly, but most of the general public has no idea it even exists.
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> *agrees with ovenwerks but needs to fix the logging with a solution that is not znc*
 * OvenWerks also uses a text only client (irssi) which would confuse some people
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> @azbulutlu [*agrees with ovenwerks but needs to fix the logging with a solution that is not â¦], I find Quassel is quite easy.
<Eickmeyer> I'm considering switching to weechat though, but it's not a priority.
<Eickmeyer> eylul: Nope, didn't work.
<Christoffer[m]> eylul: can't read your message before you accept my verification request
<Eickmeyer[m]> ð 
<dax> Eickmeyer: what's their MXID?
<Eickmeyer> dax: eulul:matrix.org
<Eickmeyer> *@eylul:matrix.org
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> Christoffer I accepted it about 5 minutes ago.
<Christoffer[m]> Says to me you haven't responded
<Eickmeyer> dax: @rodericuus:matrix.org was having the same issue in #ubuntustudio-offtopic's Matrix equivalent.
<dax> today?
<Eickmeyer> dax: Yes. Just earlier.
<Eickmeyer> About 15 minutes ago.
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> *just gives up* can you send it again?
<Christoffer[m]> IDK what it's about. Could be a homeserver thing, matrix.org has a tendency to be slow
<Eickmeyer[m]> I'm trying to get Matrix staff to look at this now.
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> christoffer which device are you at? mobile or desktop?
<studiobot> <teward001> #MatrixIsBroken heh ð
<Eickmeyer[m]> They're pretty responsive usually.
<dax> i just poked freenode staff to ask if matrix filled up their i-line again
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> I broke matrix
<dax> 'cause that's my current suspicion
<Eickmeyer[m]> dax: Sounds about right.
<Christoffer[m]> I'm on my pinebookpro ð using the webbrowser version of riot
<Christoffer[m]> on the privacytools.io matrix homeserver
<Eickmeyer[m]> Christoffer: Yeah, that doesn't really matter too much in this case.
<Eickmeyer[m]> eylul: Christoffer is showing up properly in IRC.
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> nice
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> yeah not sure why this is happening but I dont want to clog devel list with this anymore
<Eickmeyer[m]> It's OK. I'd rather we troubleshoot communication problems since that inhibits devel anyhow.
<Christoffer[m]> I actually did a legacy thing before. Tried to accept this one but took forever to confirm it
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> if you can see the contents now let me know?
<Christoffer[m]> I can't
<Eickmeyer> Christoffer[m]: Do you use Telegram?
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> *starts laughing*
<Christoffer[m]> It kind of annoys me that the matrix.org server is the weak link (IDK if it is this time, but usually is) 
<Christoffer[m]> They don't really to spread out the users like with joinmastodon.org either
<Christoffer[m]> No. I'm on Matrix and XMPP
<dax> Assuming it's the matrix<->IRC bridge, that's a single point of failure hosted by matrix.org. The current matrix bridging model doesn't allow for decentralized bridging.
<Eickmeyer[m]> https://send.firefox.com/ might be an idea.
<Christoffer[m]> And with email those are all my communication things
<Christoffer[m]>  * It kind of annoys me that the matrix.org server is the weak link (IDK if it is this time, but usually is) 
<Christoffer[m]> They don't really try to spread out the users like with joinmastodon.org either
<Eickmeyer> dax: Yeah, it's a pain, but it's better than Telegram bridging in my experience.
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> we need a password solution
<dax> anyway. asked fn staff, the response i got was "looking at it now", dunno if i'll get further info
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> like I don't know nextcloud?
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> thanks dax
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> @azbulutlu [we need a password solution], Did you see the Firefox Send link I posted?  That might be good for sending an encrypted file.
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> @azbulutlu [like I don't know nextcloud?], I have a nextcloud instance.
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> checking it now
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> doesn't nextcloud have a password management addon?
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> @azbulutlu [doesn't nextcloud have a password management addon?], It does and I use it.
<dax> Eickmeyer: apparently their i-line isn't full. If/when you get a response from matrix.org, I'd be interested to know what the reason ends up being.
<Eickmeyer[m]> dax: I'm still waiting for a response.
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> ok.. a few bytes of information finally got transmitted via matrix
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> \o/
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> *headdesk*
<Christoffer[m]> Thanks are a-ok
<Christoffer[m]>  * Things are a-ok
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> *is still laughing*
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> ok so basicaly current solution has been to manually post that there is a blog post on twitter and it being mirrored to mastodon. the mirror to mastodon is very recent. replies remains in each community and nothing else is cross posted. if you want to do both manually sure, but I know I missed posts before because I missed them on the b
<studiobot> log
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> :)
<Christoffer[m]> ðï¸
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-04-08
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: We've lost patchage, they failed to update to Python3 in time. We also lost gmidimonitor and displaycal.
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> eickmeyer don't we have carla at least for partial coverage?
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> (for patchage I mean)
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Yes, we do.
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> I will miss DisplayCAL, however. :(
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> yeah... :/
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> what happened to displaycal anyway? package conflict?
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> No. Displaycal is still on Python 2.
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> @azbulutlu [what happened to displaycal anyway? package conflict?], Developer didn't see the value in updating to Python 3. https://hub.displaycal.net/issue/17813/
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> They've only had over a decade to get it sorted.
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> :(
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Indeed. I'm not happy about that one, as a photographer. Now I have to boot into Windows in order to do any sort of calibration, then take the profile over to my LInux install(s).
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> As for patchage, it's kinda been limping along and on its death bed, so I'm not too surprised. At least we have Carla.
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> I mean more and more screens come out of factory calibrated. but yeah having display cal as an option was a good thing. :( is there an alternative out there?
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> pathage... *is also not surprised*
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> I've looked for alternatives to DisplayCAL, and there really is none.
<OvenWerks> patchage has commits in feb 2020
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Yes, but no release, and still needs Python 2.
<Eickmeyer> Python 2 is officially gone.
<OvenWerks> Dave is pretty busy with real work.
<Eickmeyer> I agree, but the archive doesn't care.
<Eickmeyer> I'm not upset about that one. The DisplayCAL developers actually get PAID to do that one.
<Eickmeyer> BTW, Patchage and DisplayCAL are both missing from Fedora for the same reason.
<OvenWerks> and arch
<Eickmeyer> Yep.
<Eickmeyer> Unless Dave can miraculously fix Patchage in the next week, people will have to adjust their workflows. We have no control over that.
<OvenWerks> maybe it was me that vanished
<Eickmeyer> You did. Your network took a dump, I think.
<OvenWerks> gmidimonitor is probably more important than patchage
<OvenWerks> my new inet service seems much more flakey than the old...
<Eickmeyer> RE: gmidimonitor: Sadly, there's nothing we can do at this point. It's gone.
<Eickmeyer> Looks like trebmuh has been working on it in Salsa.
<Eickmeyer> Huh, looks like it might just be a build-dep issue.
<Eickmeyer> Unfortunately, without the upstream code, I don't know how to fix it.
<OvenWerks> it is really quite a simple gui and app for that matter
<Eickmeyer> The source home doesn't even exist anymore.
<Eickmeyer> I guess I could play around with the salsa repo and see if there's a fix that way.
<Eickmeyer> Oh... it builds with waf. That's why.
<Eickmeyer> Same issue as we had with Ardour.
<OvenWerks> I wonder if Nedko is still around
<Eickmeyer> Well, with my experience fixing Ardour, I *might* be able to fix this, but don't hold your breath.
<Eickmeyer> Additionally, it's WAY late in the cycle.
<Eickmeyer> teward: Might need your help.
<OvenWerks> backports is fine
<Eickmeyer> TL;DR: gmidimonitor was removed from the repos due to ERR:Python2.
<Eickmeyer> And it was removed 1) after Beta freeze, and 2) after Feature freeze.
 * teward yawns
<teward> hmm?
<teward> i'll need more details here
<Eickmeyer> gmidimonitor was in the repos until sometime within the past week. It was removed due to Python2's removal.
<Eickmeyer> It FTBFS.
<teward> it was also removed in Debian
<Eickmeyer> Indeed.
<teward> see Debian Bug #943041
<ubottu> Debian bug 943041 in src:gmidimonitor "gmidimonitor: Python2 removal in sid/bullseye" [Normal,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/943041
<Eickmeyer> But all this was after Feature Freeze.
<Eickmeyer> And Beta Freeze.
<Eickmeyer> Turns out, according to OvenWerks, this is a rather important application.
<teward> and...?  The Py2 removal has been an "Ongoing Task" with freeze exemptions since the dawn
<teward> the only way to fix it is to port it to Python 3, or find a replacement
<Eickmeyer> Well, it's just the build system that's Python. The rest is c.
<teward> in both cases, it needs to be an -ng variant probably because it's a 'new' replacement
<teward> i'm confused then, what do you need from me?
<teward> i can't veto a removal in this case
<Eickmeyer> I might need you to sponsor an upload.
<teward> Eickmeyer: i'll need to heavily vet it first
<teward> and i'll need to coordinate with Archive Admins and Release Team
<Eickmeyer> That's assuming I can get it to build, of course.
<Eickmeyer> It's the exact same issue we had with Ardour.
<Eickmeyer> Except it got removed (annoyingly) much later.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: we may want to concider it dead of bitrot... useful as it is.
<OvenWerks>  if some one really wants that function they can use amidi in the terminal
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: If you're OK with that... you seemed to give me the impression that it is necessary.
<OvenWerks> it is 2011
<OvenWerks> https://repo.or.cz/gmidimonitor.git
<Eickmeyer> 9 years old. Yeah, let's let it die. We can't keep resurrecting stuff from the dead.
<teward> > 8 years ago	3.6		 	 | commit | log  < yikes
<teward> yeah i'm not sponsoring bitrot
<teward> :p
<OvenWerks> maybe something to add to -controls
<Eickmeyer> Maybe, if you want to take the code and give them credit.
<OvenWerks> I would just add a gui layer to amidi
<teward> unrelated, its homepage is one lol
<teward> gone*
<trebmuh> <OvenWerks> I wonder if Nedko is still around -> yes those days he's on #lad
<trebmuh> he's right now
<OvenWerks> trebmuh: yes but I have not seen comments from him in ages
<trebmuh> he's not involved too much in the linuxaudio community since the ladish VS jack-session debacle
<OvenWerks> both have basically gone away
<trebmuh> but if you want to catch up with him about gmidimonitor, you've got an answer to your initial question
<OvenWerks> The days of using a pile of applications all connected via jack are basically gone with LV2 and lxvst
<trebmuh> Eickmeyer, y'es I've been adding a few little things : https://salsa.debian.org/multimedia-team/gmidimonitor/-/commits/master/
<trebmuh> I don't believe so OvenWerks 
<trebmuh> it might be right that some stuff are done now with an host/plugin approach
<OvenWerks> not going to argue that one, it is true that people still route via jack
<trebmuh> but one still need jack for using lets say using hydrogen with ardour with rosegarden
<OvenWerks> yes
<trebmuh> jack transport rocks
<OvenWerks> and it does so because it has not changed :)
<trebmuh> if we would loose the jack approach, then the linuxaudio realm would be f*cked up
<trebmuh> and we would end up with the same crap than on proprietary system
<OvenWerks> remind Paul and Robin of that once in a while...
<trebmuh> ie : you're bloody stuck with the host/daw you started with
<trebmuh> I know, I know
<trebmuh> but hey, they aren't the center of the universe
<OvenWerks> both have commented about how easy things would be if they just removed the jack backend]
<trebmuh> and moreover, they're community driven
<trebmuh> they're ardour/mixbus driven
<Eickmeyer> Just throwing this out there: pipewire supports the Jack API now.
<trebmuh> (even if they are doing a great job within the community IMHO)
<trebmuh> Eickmeyer, no
<trebmuh> Eickmeyer, it supports parts of the API
 * OvenWerks hides behind a rock
<trebmuh> but it's not ready to replace jack and will not soon
<OvenWerks> trebmuh: I agree that those who use jack for gluing daws, trackers etc. together would not like PW
<Eickmeyer> trebmuh: That's true. I have it in Fedora Jam 32 as an optional, experimental component.
<trebmuh> OvenWerks, why hiding? you work for mixbus/ardour maybe?
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Talking to the devs, they are working on the same glue that Jack uses in terms of patching/routing together different audio applications.
<trebmuh> that wasn't a "they are the evil" thing from me, just a fact that you're not driven by the same thing when doing thing freely or doing thing for money
<OvenWerks> I do work on Ardour but do not agree jack is dead. No hiding because I really don't want to even begin arguing that one
<Eickmeyer> Including apps that only use Pulseaudio.
<trebmuh> OvenWerks, you do work as a paid work ?
<Eickmeyer> (it doesn't use the Pulse APi yet).
<OvenWerks> no
<trebmuh> that the full point OvenWerks 
<trebmuh> at least the one I'm talking about here :)
<OvenWerks> The OSC surface stuff is mostly mine though
<OvenWerks>  The foldback bus/send stuff is mine
<trebmuh> oh yeah, I remember a bunch of commits from you on the github ardour tracker now
<trebmuh> great job BTW
<trebmuh> anyway guys, I've got to go now
<trebmuh> TTYL
<Eickmeyer> Bye trebmuh o/
<OvenWerks> However, I test all ardour stuff with jack
<OvenWerks> o/
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: what is the status of libfltk in 20.04?
<Eickmeyer> Nonexistant, afaict.
<Eickmeyer> Uh... hold please
<Eickmeyer> I was looking at the wrong package. It's there.
<OvenWerks> Ya it is still there
<Eickmeyer> !libfltk1.3
<Eickmeyer> !info libfltk1.3 focal
<ubottu> libfltk1.3 (source: fltk1.3): Fast Light Toolkit - main shared library. In component universe, is optional. Version 1.3.4-10build1 (focal), package size 532 kB, installed size 1520 kB
<Eickmeyer> I have it installed as a dep for something.
<OvenWerks> fluid is still there too
<Eickmeyer> Yep, stuff got rebuilt against fluidsynth 2 back in January.
<OvenWerks> fluid as oposed to fluidsynth
<Eickmeyer> Ohhh...
<OvenWerks> looks like infamous plugins uses it
<OvenWerks> (I must have the source in here)
<Eickmeyer> So, the only things that got removed when I updated the metas this morning were the packages I listed, only after Ross told the ML DisplayCAL was gone.
 * OvenWerks prefers fltk to gtl or qt
<Eickmeyer> Patchage fell victim, and gmidimonitor died of bitrot.
<Eickmeyer> fltk is a bit DE-agnostic, so yeah, I can see that.
<OvenWerks> gmidimonitor make come back it seems but I think it would be better look for something that being maintained
<Eickmeyer> I saw a qt equivalent at one point.
<OvenWerks> kmidimon?
<OvenWerks> it is still there in 18.04 still in 20.04?
<OvenWerks> midisnoop?
<OvenWerks> amidi, BTW, will not replace gmidimonitor
<OvenWerks> kmidi mon only goes to disc
<OvenWerks> midisnoop is still there
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: Can we at this time substitute midisnoop for gmidimonitor as being the same feature?
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: I think we can. Let me check..
<Eickmeyer> !info midisnoop focal
<ubottu> midisnoop (source: midisnoop): MIDI monitor and prober. In component universe, is optional. Version 0.1.2+git20141108.bc30f600187e-1build1 (focal), package size 166 kB, installed size 642 kB
<Eickmeyer> Yeah, let me sub it out in the seed real quick.
<OvenWerks> Actually it looks nicer
<Eickmeyer> Updated in seed, now updating metas.
<OvenWerks> It has no upstream though :P
<OvenWerks> >>>http://midisnoop.googlecode.com/
<Eickmeyer> Lovely. :P
<OvenWerks> googlecode is gone
<Eickmeyer> It's only moved: 
<Eickmeyer> https://github.com/surfacepatterns/midisnoop
<Eickmeyer> Except... latest commit was 2014.
<OvenWerks> yeah
<Eickmeyer> We can include it, but it's not long for this world.
<OvenWerks> and there is no desktop file
<Eickmeyer> *sigh*
<OvenWerks> thats ok I think
<OvenWerks> not nice but ok
<Eickmeyer> Yeah, we can backport something in -menu to fix that.
<Eickmeyer> I was considering an emergency bugfix to that, but it is SO late in the cycle, the changes to -meta are sure to annoy the release team.
<Eickmeyer> As it is, I am going to be filing a FFe for the metas.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: is there anyway to tell which libs it actually chose as deps?
<OvenWerks> The source does seem to have a desktop file
<Eickmeyer> https://packages.ubuntu.com/focal/midisnoop
<Eickmeyer> The deps aren't outlandish by any means, and I think stuff we already carry.
<Eickmeyer> Nice that it's already Qt5.
<OvenWerks> and python3
<Eickmeyer> Ok, metas updated and uploaded with FFe attached.
<Eickmeyer> Now the release team does their thing.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-04-09
<Eickmeyer> Hey all. I'm going to be applying for the Ubuntu Studio packageset soon, so I'd appreciate comments/testimonials. :) https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Eickmeyer/PPUApplication2
<Eickmeyer> j-goose: Saw your questions on main. To answer all of them, it's simply a matter of time: getting 20.04 out the door is priority #1.
<studiobot> <teward001> i missed questions heh
<studiobot> <teward001> *salts Eickmeyer*
<Eickmeyer> teward: It was in #ubuntustudio. He was wondering why the lack of write-ups for certain applications and screenshots on the website. :P
<teward> ah
<Eickmeyer> ERR:Time
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Looks like I'll be able to revive patchage.
<Eickmeyer> https://gitlab.com/drobilla/patchage/-/issues/1
<Eickmeyer> teward: Gonna have an upload here soon.
<teward> upload where
<teward> ubuntu, debian, deeznuts?
<teward> *yawns*
<Eickmeyer> Ubuntu.
<Eickmeyer> No time for Debian on this one.
<Eickmeyer> Besides, debian's repo is gone for this one.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: I do prefer patcge to Carla because I don't have to go looking for the patch bay.
<Eickmeyer> Uh... you find it hard to click on a tab OvenWerks ?
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: As falktx separates his utilities and we can get just the patchbay I would like to switch to that.
<Eickmeyer> Yeah, Catia would be that. I'd like that too.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer:  Carla is also slow in start up for a quick look at the graph
<Eickmeyer> Either way, I'm working on it.
<OvenWerks> That is one of my complaints about qjackctl for looking at the graph as well
<Eickmeyer> teward: Any clue which part of debhelper applies the patches? I need it to run first which might require an override.
<studiobot> <teward001> that's handled by quilt I think and applied automatically
<studiobot> <teward001> not sure if you can override that without quilt patches
<studiobot> <teward001> would have to dig
<studiobot> <teward001> but currently dealing with power disruptions at home
<Eickmeyer> The problem is that the patches need to run before it calls .waf distclean at the beginning of the build.
<Eickmeyer> (it's not currently doing that0
<studiobot> <teward001> then the patches need to be quilt patches
<studiobot> <teward001> are they?
<Eickmeyer> Yes, they are.
<Eickmeyer> I'm just trying to figure out in what order.
<studiobot> <teward001> which repo
<namn> Yo, this is christoffer TallerÃ¥s the social media guy. For some reason the matrix thing doesn't work at all, I think it's a privacytools.io issue. But the important part is that my Facebook account got nuked by Facebook so I ended up making one in my real name. So just discard the "Namn Namnesen" permissions to the FB site. This is my new one with my IRL name https://www.facebook.com/christoffer.talleras
<namn> Kind of sucks TBH
<studiobot> <teward001> the question then is why did Facebook ban you :P
<studiobot> <teward001> unless you did it yourself :P
 * OvenWerks thinks that about fb in general
<Eickmeyer> Well, Facebook doesn't like fake accounts, so that might've been why.
<namn> Yeah, they want you too use your real name and shit
<Eickmeyer> Yep.
<Eickmeyer> It's against their TOS to have a fake name on there.
<OvenWerks> and then they leak it to all and sundry
<namn> Luckily Twitter aren't so stuck up
<namn> Just a shame as I had left Facebook forever a long time ago
<namn> BTW, I'm gonna make a social media content plan
<namn> How have you guys done stuff like that previously?
<namn> I'm thinking of just having a shared spreadsheet or something
<teward> Eickmeyer: ask #ubuntu-devel for an assist
<teward> at the moment I've got shit-on-fire (metaphorically) that takes my attention
<namn> and related to that, are there any dates besides the release that I should know about when planning our social media presence?
<Eickmeyer> teward: No worries, I'm probably not going to worry about it.
<Eickmeyer> namn: Hold please...
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Bad news, Patchage won't build. Looks like Dave is targeting Arch, which has a newer version of ganv than we do, and it wants to build against that. Basically, we can't even backport it.
<Eickmeyer> namn: Ok, so just read what you have. Right now, release is really the next big date. I'll be posting the announcement on the website.
<Eickmeyer> namn: As far as a content plan, it's usually just announcements.
<Eickmeyer> If you come up with something better, I'd like to see it.
<namn> Eickmeyer: I'm just starting on the content plan, I haven't put down anything yet, but with the planned dates and announcements I'm gonna make some proposials. This plan will include what day it is posted, what time it is posted, topic and content and each platform will have it's own plan as each needs to be used differently.
<Eickmeyer> namn: Ack.
<namn> But my general idea is to plan for some graphics or similar type content which communicates something about Ubuntu Studio and that are easily shared
<Eickmeyer> Ok, yeah, sure. You've got the material you need. If you need anything else, such as backgrounds or what-not, you can use your usr/share/backgrounds/ubuntustudio directory.
<namn> As I'm not being paid there is limitations to what I can do, but I'm thinking I could easily spin something up for tomorow and next friday. And Obviously there should be put in a lot of fancy content on the release date
<namn> Great!
<Eickmeyer> That's fine. I'm not paid either. None of us are.
<namn> Yeah heheh
<Eickmeyer> The people who made the website theme weren't paid for that, but since they were starting their business, they wanted something for their portfolio.
<namn> I'll manage to do most of this myself but will try to keep you up to date to approve stuff and stuff like that
<namn> The plan will be a important tool for that
<Eickmeyer> Cool
<namn> I see, I'm hoping to get some portfolio stuff myself. Have done a lot of personal work that isn't really fit for portfolio stuff, so I'm hoping to get more material in the field which also has more weight to them in a setting like this
<namn> If Eyul additional time she is free to join in this tentative plan too
<Eickmeyer> @azbulutlu ^
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> huh wha..
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> sorry I was on phone
<Eickmeyer> No worries, just read up. namn (Christoffer) wants you involved in the social media stuff if you have time.
<namn> @azbulutlu TLDR; I'm working on a tentative social media plan for time time until the release and the release. You are free to join.
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> yeah sure can help as I still have some of the assets
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> can especially help with the visuals
<Eickmeyer> namn has the assets too. I linked him pretty much everything.
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> sorry. namn -> christoffer was the part I was missing
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> was like. wait we have a second person interested in this?
<namn> Oh yeah. My matrix home server went down lol
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> ouch
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> temp or permanent?
<namn> idk, it's not fully down. just doesn't work
<Eickmeyer> I'm staying off Matrix until they get their junk in order. Trying a few different things right now.
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> I might try the kde server
<studiobot> <azbulutlu> you suggested.
<Eickmeyer> Yeah, I might too.
<Eickmeyer> I'm on Weechat right now, relayed through my Digital Ocean droplet just like my quassel core is.
<eylul[m]> testing the matrix in question
<eylul[m]> oh look what is working now
<namn> (Namn = Name in Nynorwegian, which is the non-danish influenced written tongue we use outside the cities in Norway, kind of like the commoner's tongue, if anyone wondered) I can change my name if needed
<Eickmeyer> Oh yay!
<Eickmeyer> Can confirm, we see you eylul[m]!
<eylul[m]> we'll see how long it lasts, it says my name isn't registered
<eylul[m]> no idea what is happening here. 
<eylul[m]> xD
<eylul[m]> anyways
<eylul[m]> but yeah I might try weechat. or quassel, depending on which one yunohost supports if either
<Eickmeyer> You should be able to message nickserv and tell it "identify eylul <password>".
<namn> Is it possible to join this chat through XMPP?
<eylul[m]> via matrix probably would be the only way to do that
<eylul[m]> I have never seen XMPP bridged to IRC
<eylul[m]> I did use to have an XMPP via dreamhost, I stopped using it because nobody else did
<Eickmeyer> I don't know enough about XMPP.
<eylul[m]> its basically like gchat
<eylul[m]> gchat used to be based on xmpp for context
<namn> I use it mostly for direct messages, but I know it works for group chats too.
<Eickmeyer> Like Jabber?
<namn> Yeah, Jabber is XMPP
<Eickmeyer> Ah, gotcha.
<Eickmeyer> I've used it before.
<eylul[m]> its really intuitive especially for 1-on-1 the problem with group video audio etc, is that the implementations are not standard and everything does something else
<eylul[m]> yep 
<eylul[m]> is weechat commandline based?
<eylul[m]> anyway back on the topic. I'll be busy around the weekend, but I do have some time tomorrow, especially around evening, and a bit on monday to work on things. not sure when the release is planned
<eylul[m]> I am assuming within a week (possibly less?)
<Eickmeyer> Weechat is command line based, but there are graphical clients in development.
<namn> I'm planning for a social media post tomorow and for the next friday, and the release. That makes three posts for Facebook. While on Twitter and Mastodon I think a different approach should be done.
<namn> I don't know what types of posts they are gonna be yet
<Eickmeyer> Ok, just run them by me. :)
<namn> But I'm thinking some graphics talking about the attributes of ubuntu studio, and maybe one about something regarding ethical software with agree & disagree
<namn> Eickmeyer: @eylul are there any thoughts and ideas that comes to mind that fits those two types of social media content?
<Eickmeyer> Let's leave the ethical software debate out of it.
<namn> I see
<eylul[m]> yeah I know this is something that you feel strongly about christoffer. 
<eylul[m]> but... well you also know my opinion on it as well. :))
<namn> But as a context thing, types of posts on facebook that has a discussion factor using the emotes have a huge impact on facebook
<eylul[m]> I would think that mastodon has a very different audience. communicating with people, and interacting with them is the right approach there
<eylul[m]> I actually know very little about how to make it through twitter these days through
<namn> I'm not really concerned with what that post will be, but something we could talk about fitting that type of post
<eylul[m]> the main reason I have twitter/instagram/facebook is because I have been more or less forced to have it, because people keep asking to follow me there :P
<eylul[m]> nods
<eylul[m]> I would say something like encouraging people to use #ubuntustudio hashtag could be interesting
<eylul[m]> and tag their work with it
<eylul[m]> also obviously mirror boost longer content we put on facebook/blog
<namn> We can go through all the platforms. But the two fridays I suggesten I'm planning as Facebook specific posts.
<eylul[m]> ok
<eylul[m]> what do you have in mind, and what do you need from me and eickmeyer?
<namn> So one of these posts could be like a "hot take" or discussion topic
<namn> Not neccessarilly too hot of a topic
<namn> but enough for people to want to engage
<namn> just like a statement
<namn> "We think (...) is how things should be"
<namn> Then the post will have two emotes or reactions on it
<eylul[m]> errrr...
<Eickmeyer> Again, ethical software is not our soapbox.
<namn> No
<eylul[m]> do we want to open the whole thing by basically encouraging people to free for all feature suggest?
<namn> Humph
<namn> Think more abstractely
<namn> Just anything that has that effect
<eylul[m]> we could simply ask people how they use ubuntustudio? the facebook community seem to be already really interested in showcasing their work.
<Eickmeyer> I don't want discussions that are going to pit people against each other.
<eylul[m]> and from there we could open workflows, and then from there get to VERY gently into open source software issue.
<eylul[m]> just thinking out loud
<namn> So the trick here is to do something that no one disagrees with but that people feel is an unfair thing
<namn> and it should be something that ubuntu studio solves
<namn> oor stands against
<eylul[m]> nods
<eylul[m]> do we know yet what ubuntustudio solves for them?
<namn> Don't get too hung up on the ethical software thing, just the first thing that came to mind
<eylul[m]> or maybe part of it is asking them what it solves for them, why did they end up ehre. :) 
<namn> Yeah, that is why we need a social media strategy heheh
<eylul[m]> here*
<eylul[m]> eylul's typos are in action again :P
<namn> I can come with a visual example that I've done for another social media page
<eylul[m]> sure!
<eylul[m]> sorry christoffer, it is possible that we are simply not understanding what you are talking about here
<eylul[m]> I know you have background in campaigning
<eylul[m]> I do come from more of a non-profit experience and that of an artist, so it is possible that we are simply not visualizing what you are talking about well.
<namn> Yeah, and it's fine. Like it's understandable
<eylul[m]> btw I am available to voice chat if either of you are up to it, have time (eickmeyer I know it is not always possible for you these days)
<namn> So here is a very successfull post I've done before. Now this one is very populistic and has political messaging, I'll be asking you to look away from that
<namn> https://christalleras.no/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/Kven-vill-du-ha-liten.png
<namn> But visually there will be either one or two pictures, a statement, emotes and a logo
<eylul[m]> ohhhhhhh!!!!! you want to create meme posts!
<eylul[m]> a type of them at least.
<namn> It's not a meme, it's just a type of rhetorical post that does well with the facebook algorythm
<namn> It's in essence like a meme, but it shouldn't feel like a meme to the audience
<eylul[m]> ok...
<namn> so you are correct in that respect
<namn> As these types of posts have like a set up
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: re: patchage... thats the way the cookie crumbles...
<Eickmeyer[m]> OvenWerks: Yep, and indeed.
<namn> But I'll try to figure out some ideas for you guys to approve, but if you got any ideas give me a shout
<eylul[m]> namn: I think this could be very good to attract new people to the page. the group. I am less sure how it will go with the existing audience there. which.. I am not sure but feels like an older age group. 
<namn> It should go well with any age group I think, but it is a important concern, so the visuals used should work for older folks!
<Eickmeyer[m]> It's very much an older age group that interacts on Facebook.
<eylul[m]> Christoffer, did you look at the existing posts by users on the facebook page? 
<eylul[m]> and nods at that
<Eickmeyer[m]> https://facebook.com/ubuntustudiogroup
<Eickmeyer[m]> You'll want to re-join that.
<eylul[m]> also the other thing is we do have a facebook page separate from the group, if that is the case, these two might need to be treated differently (genuinely tries to remember)
<Eickmeyer[m]> Bad URL
<Eickmeyer[m]> https://facebook.com/groups/ubuntustudiogroup
<Eickmeyer[m]> They are treated differently, and the page can post to the group.
<namn> I don't necessarilly agree. You can attract young people on facebook too. But the types of posts you do matter a lot
<Eickmeyer[m]> Rather, they can be treated differently.
<namn> There is ofc platforms you can use to direct towards younger auiences more strongly though
<eylul[m]> we don't say we cannot attract young people. 
<namn> @eylul I had a quick glance of facebook, twitter and Mastodon
<eylul[m]> I actually think we can with some of the ideas you present. we are more talking about the current existing audience (e.g. people who are members/following)
<eylul[m]> :)
<eylul[m]> and yes the page is separate from the group
<namn> Ahh, but I'll make sure to not alienate those of course
<eylul[m]> nods
<namn> You guys will be helping me do that too^^
<Eickmeyer[m]> I set the facebook group to invisible because spammers would try to join. It ended up being a pain. I'll probably link it from the website, but I don't want it discoverable on Facebook itself.
<eylul[m]> we could also put the group aside for now, focus on the page witht the ideas namn mentioned.
<eylul[m]> and then see where we are? is thinking out loud
<namn> I agree
<namn> I'd love to buy in to the feelings towards the big standing in opposition to the big corps
<namn> How do you feel about that
<OvenWerks> ubuntu is not a big corp?
<OvenWerks> (well the ownwer)
<namn> I don't mean rationally ;) ;)
<namn> But Linux in itself is kind of counter culture, a bit rebelious. And people overall feel uneasyness with the Microsofts, the Apples and so on of the world
<eylul[m]> ubuntustudio audience is a bit different. especially the audio folks.
<eylul[m]> a lot of people especially who come to ubuntustudio comes to ubuntustudio because it literally is one of the easiest ways to get into audio production
<namn> Not even privacy? That is good to know
<Eickmeyer[m]> namn: I don't want to portray that image. That's not our soapbox.
<eylul[m]> it comes with presetting 2 pretty hard to install tools: jack and ardour
<eylul[m]> that's kind of why many of the audio distros existed. 
<namn> What is our soapbox? That's kind of what I'm trying to figure out to be frank
<eylul[m]> I have been trying to bring other art (visual art) etc, but that has been me mostly. *dodges the incoming object from all the developers :P *
<Eickmeyer[m]> We are about enabling people to be creative with audio production, video production, graphic design, photography, and publishing.
<studiobot> <teward001> *drags eylul out into the middle of the arena and ties them to a post*
<studiobot> <teward001> *leaves them there in the heat of the three suns*
<eylul[m]> ouch
 * Eickmeyer[m] throws an armed nuke at @teward001
<eylul[m]> although now we are starting to work on tools, and put the effort in to make tools available for visual artists. like ovenwerks is currently working on ubuntustudio-controls that will come with its own wacom controls, and I'd argue that one of the advantages of swapping to KDE plasma will be harnassing plasma's awesome toolkit for folks working with open source graphics software
<eylul[m]> (e.g. gwenview, dolphin's ability to thumbnail raw files, Plasma's innate setup for powerusers etc) 
<eylul[m]> <3 teward001
<eylul[m]> and <3 eickmeyer
<Eickmeyer[m]> BTW, the Plasma thing is not yet public knowledge.
<eylul[m]> but yeah a huge HUGE userbase of ubuntustudio (especially users who came in earlier) are there for audio primarily, because it makes it very trivial to install this software
<eylul[m]> (I mean jack is also kind of cool if you livestream too, being able to adjust which audio goes where is nice in general)
<studiobot> <teward001> *dodges the nuke, then drags Eickmeyer through `/dev/urandom`*
<studiobot> <teward001> :P
<studiobot> <teward001> yeah we regularly take potshots at each other we're all insane and friends though :)
 * Eickmeyer[m] sends @teward001 to /dev/zero
<studiobot> <teward001> too late i'm already there
<studiobot> <teward001> :)
<Eickmeyer[m]> Facts
<studiobot> <teward001> ERR: File already exists
<eylul[m]> ubuntustudio was always cross-domains and had the software for visuals arts as well (as long as I have known it) but yeah that is one of the biggest assets of this distro: jack and ardour. 
<eylul[m]> (and now carla, etc. too I suppose, so parts of KXstudio)
<eylul[m]> (which is no longer its own distro)
<eylul[m]> I love that you two dissolved into linux geekery. :) 
<namn> "We are about enabling people to be creative with audio production, video production, graphic design, photography, and publishing." That's not really anything else than every other creative software is, isn't it? And there is definately more to ubuntu studio than just that
<namn> as well
<namn> But another thing to consider is that we gotta have "something to say"
<Eickmeyer[m]> namn: There is no social cause here.
<namn> What do we have to tell the world and differenciates us from other creative software, suits and so on
<Eickmeyer[m]> We're free. You don't have to pay for it. You can just do what you need to do.
<namn> Those are some good examples
<eylul[m]> unlike commercial software it doesn't lock you in, you can customize and combine software as you need, your data is yours in free formats
<eylul[m]> I mean this is one important thing about most open source software that is not sheer propaganda. they often do come with open formats
<eylul[m]> e.g. you can take an image from mypaint, the raw format, and bring it to krita for further edit
<eylul[m]> but gimp also can open .ora files
<eylul[m]> similarly there are many audio tools, independently produced, but often, moving data between them is easy, and you are not locked into a creative suite
<eylul[m]> what people say about opensource is that it is hard to install, etc
<eylul[m]> but we make it easy, for even the mostly complicated software like jack and ardour
<eylul[m]> and give you a settings tool to help setup your audio settings. we make these tools actually accessible to end user
<namn> BTW, I'm not all "social cause" here. I'm gauging your branding here and try to take a professional look. I don't appreciate if eveything is going to go back to that I do other stuff else where or that I mentioned ethical software.
<namn> And trying to do marketing without engaging with what is in the public discussion is not very feasable. Reason I mention like privacy is that it's one of the most popular topics right now
<namn> And ubuntu studio would clearly be a solution to that, just to make things clear.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Ok, so then the question: other than that, why do you use Ubuntu Studio?
<namn> I'll note down all of these things BTW.
<namn> Me personally?
<Eickmeyer[m]> Yeah. I mean, you're part of this conversation too.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Really, that's what it comes down to.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Why are any of us using it?
<studiobot> <teward001> just don't ask me i just help out :)
<studiobot> <teward001> *shot*
 * Eickmeyer[m] blasts @teward with 30hz sound at 120dB...
<eylul[m]> heh well I assume you do use linux teward001
<eylul[m]> OWWW behave gentlemen
<eylul[m]> frowns at both of the guys :P
<Eickmeyer[m]> LOL
<studiobot> <teward001> jokes' on you i'm already blasting Motorhead in my earbuds at max volume Eickmeyer ;)
<studiobot> <teward001> which is far higher than that xD
<Eickmeyer[m]> 30hz simply rattles your insides at that volume, you can't actually hear it.
<Eickmeyer[m]> And can make you poop.
<studiobot> <teward001> they never verified that ;)
<studiobot> <teward001> but you're right.
<studiobot> <teward001> this said
<studiobot> <teward001> i'm already vibrating with the power of my music :)
<studiobot> <teward001> sooooooooooooooo :
<studiobot> <teward001> p
<eylul[m]> (namn, feel free to reply to what eickmeyer asked, ignore them)
<studiobot> <teward001> yeah just ignore us :)
<eylul[m]> (release deadlines is bringing the worst in everyone laughs)
<eylul[m]> you two do realize that you are filling a poor log somewhere with this random chat right? xD
<namn> Yeah. I think we got 4 personas. 1.Professionals 2.Students 3.Enthusiasts 4. Creatives I'd be in the first and third persona.
<Eickmeyer[m]> I'd be 1 and 4.
<namn> We still have some work to define these personas though
<eylul[m]> 1 3 4 for me. (3 and 4 depending on audio vs visual arts)
<eylul[m]> nods
<eylul[m]> I think one funky aspect of the whole thing is that
<eylul[m]> we have pretty distinct personas based on audience in different social media
<namn> Enthusiasts would be people who have high insight into techical things but don't do creative things professionally.
 * Eickmeyer[m] has to take son to his school to get some books they need to give him
<namn> Creatives would be people who don't have high technical knowledge but that use their time for creative stuff.
<eylul[m]> so for example mastodon, we have probably quite a few non-audio folks. which is unusual elsewhere. (again sorry for causing that :P ) vs facebook is a very narrow subset of the audio folk specifically
<Eickmeyer[m]> Then that makes me 1, 3, and 4.
<eylul[m]> (actually in that case 1 vs 3 for visual vs audio)
<namn> Yeah, different platforms definately engage different personas
<namn> Problem with professionals is that they are a very small demographic
<eylul[m]> remembers recently having to have had this conversation elsewhere
<eylul[m]> yep 
<Eickmeyer[m]> Ok, speaking of group #2, homeschool duties. Back later.
<studiobot> <teward001> Eickmeyer: LIES these are lies you just want to go to the bathroom or get away from the computer for a few minutes lol :P
<studiobot> <teward001> (just kidding)
<Eickmeyer[m]> @teward001: I did that without announcing. :P
<eylul[m]> xD
<eylul[m]> eickmeyer go. the backlog will be here when you get back
<Eickmeyer[m]> I'll leave a window open.
<eylul[m]> namn I hope this at least helped you a little bit understanding what facebook side looks like
<eylul[m]> I have absolutely no idea what the audience is like on twitter through
<namn> TBH Twitter is not as good as a place for engagement, I consider Twitter and Mastodon a secondary focus kind of
<namn> One should be present but in a different and less big way than on facebook
<eylul[m]> mastodon is a nice place I find because it might lack in numbers but people we get are very highly engaged and in many ways offers a lot of feedback
<namn> Now that is my view on it and I will work with whatever things that have been decided on
<eylul[m]> twitter one thing about it is that (for some reason I cannot understand) the whole open source community is there
<namn> Yeah, Mastodon are what I conside enthusiasts
<eylul[m]> there is actually a fair number of professionals in mastodon
<namn> Hmm, I think it might have to do with the political start of the use and branding of opensource software
<eylul[m]> I dare say we have a much higher proportion of professionals then we do elsewhere.
<namn> But I'm not sure
<namn> I'd be inclined to agree
<namn> Mastodon has more professionals and enthuisasts
<eylul[m]> nods
<eylul[m]> I will say also through that the professionals and enthusiasts we have on facebook group/page is more diverse
<eylul[m]> diverse -> literally from more countries
<namn> That is a thing to consider
<eylul[m]> nods
<namn> Inclusion of more than english in graphics could be beneficial
<namn> Linux does really well in South America for example I know
<eylul[m]> that and also realize that a good portion of these people are not there for alternative culture 
<eylul[m]> exactly
<namn> Biggest linux youtuber is from Brazil
<eylul[m]> and it does because it is affordable. 
<namn> Yeah
<eylul[m]> well one of the reasons
<eylul[m]> but yeah to a lot of these people this is genuinely an alternative that makes their lives easier
<eylul[m]> not a political statement
<namn> Everything is arguably political. It's hard to get besides it. Ubuntu itself engages in a lot of politics regarding national safety and privacy lately for example
<namn> Speaking on the relationship with China and hackers
<namn> As long as one distinguishes between what type of speech, like this is us engaging with the world as a business and not a political organization or person
<eylul[m]> yes I know that argument of everything is political, yet that is not the focus. 
<namn> I mean, it's important for our work
<namn> At least in terms of marketing
<namn> Just got an idea for the emote type post
<namn> "Professional software shouldn't cost your shirt"
<namn> Problem is that ubuntu studio can sound cheap
<namn> in terms of lous
<namn> lousy
<namn> And I don't think it's enough to warrant an engagement
<namn> Like proper facebook engagement
<namn> "Professional software should respect your privacy" is one that I actually like
<namn> Everyone agrees with it, but it also has a lot of force behind it
<eylul[m]> do they? actually many people care more about ease of use than privacy. that is how we end up in the situation we are :) 
<eylul[m]> not because they don't care. they simply don't have the time.
<namn> I think they can value both
<namn> I don't really care about what the actual message is per say
<namn> I think about it as a song, what kind of emotional response can I illicit 
<namn> The one about privacy has stronger emotional resonance, which is what I am looking for
 * Eickmeyer[m] is reading the backscroll a bit
<namn> This is for the second type of post, the one for tomorow
<namn> "Own the software you use, don't let it own you"
<namn> Maybe a bit too on the nose
<Eickmeyer[m]> namn: You seem to be highly driven by the political and privacy arguments, moreso than the entire Ubuntu culture. Honestly, that doesn't at all fit with our ethos and culture, not just here within Ubuntu Studio, but Ubuntu more broadly.
<Eickmeyer[m]> I understand your enthusasm for that, but that can't be the lens you see everything with.
<Eickmeyer[m]> I'm just not 100% sure you're the right person for this, and I'm not 100% sure you're a good fit for the team here.
<namn> I don't think I see everything through that lence.
<namn> Well, that is unfortunate
<namn> But any person working with social media and marketing would approach this the same way
<namn> :P
<studiobot> <teward001> you'd have to prove that, because that mindset is not actually the case in a lot of marketing approaches.
<Eickmeyer[m]> ^
<namn> What kind of mindset?
<studiobot> <teward001> to quote Eickmeyer:
<studiobot> <teward001> > You seem to be highly driven by the political and privacy arguments, moreso than the entire Ubuntu culture. Honestly, that doesn't at all fit with our ethos and culture, not just here within Ubuntu Studio, but Ubuntu more broadly.
<studiobot> <teward001> that's the mindset
<studiobot> <teward001> that i am talking about
<studiobot> <teward001> STUPID KEYBOARD!  *yeets his computer out the window*
<Eickmeyer[m]> Enter keys are hard.
<namn> Well, I don't think that is true
<namn> I just explained earlier that I'm looking for emotional resonance
<namn> I mean, the privacy stuff are suggestions plainly because those are the best material I can think of right now
<eylul[m]> Christoffer, I think what we are trying to say is that, that is not the best material
<eylul[m]> based on our audience
<eylul[m]> and that is what I think eickmeyer and teward001 especially are trying to communicate.
<namn> That's false
<namn> They don't think I fit the team because I am too political and they think I don't have a mind for anything outside that
<teward> be aware of something:
<teward> while i just simply support the team
<teward> Eickmeyer **is the project leader**
<teward> and therefore the one you have to convince
<teward> if he says you are not fit for the team
<teward> his word is law
<teward> and there's not much you can say in counter to that.
<namn> I don't dissagree with that.
<namn> But that's the kind of response you give if you don't want to hear my side of the story.
<namn> I've never argued to do anything but what has been decided
<Eickmeyer> I love your enthusasm, really, I do. But I want to see better examples, because every single one is centered on privacy and politics. If you can come up with better examples, then cool! If not, then we will have to part ways.
<teward> let me give a little tidbit I got from my marketing classes when I had to take them
<teward> A marketing strategy **has to match the target audience**
<namn> I've also tried to repeat that
<teward> and their **target goals and needs*
<teward> NOT privacy
<teward> NOT politics
<teward> but what **they want** and what the project/item gives to support their goals and needs
<teward> not broad ideals that aren't geared for the project or target market
<teward> for example
<teward> my consulting LLC in the tech world
<teward> I'm a security guy
<teward> so I advertise i provide security and network experience in the IT world and have for the past five years, and have extensive experience
<teward> I then go to quote testimonials in support of that from local small businesses
<teward> that's my marketing model
<teward> and my target audience - those companies needing IT support and IT Security/Networking support
<teward> so I target *that* specifically
<teward> i don't discuss politics
<teward> I don't discuss privacy EXCEPT in the context of generic IT Security and current global market needs for IT SEcurity consultants and the concerns of most companies
<teward> but tha'ts a **company**
<teward> not a product.
<teward> Ubuntu Studio's marketing point is NOT political.  It is NOT privacy.
<teward> it's marketing point is that it provides a Linux OS that is geared towards audiophiles and designers who want a platform for audio/visual/digital artistry components and needs
<teward> so if you are unable to gear a strategy with that in mind
<namn> I think you guys are free to decide that on the matter. But I don't think it's anything but personal preference on how you want to run things here
<teward> using facts and not political spin or propaganda
<teward> then you are not a good fit as Eickmeyer said
<teward> (and yes, I DO run my LLC, even though I'm full time employed)
<eylul[m]> namn understand that when we explain about our target audience,  we did give you reasons. its the easy install of open source software that is otherwise very powerful, and has an installation difficulty as the main hurdle. it is quick access to discovery of many alternative software into a suite that is already curated for them. and you might think these are not important, but these are important for our audience
<teward> ^ and that's your target with any marketing campaign
<namn> Personally I think "easy installation" for example lack emotional resonance. It may fit with your target audience, but it isn't very strategic when used towards the facebook algorythm
<eylul[m]> this might not look  important to you (it might even not be as important to me, or other savvy users, who are able to install things easily, and find software, or discover how they can interact) but it is for example important, very important to a more casual end user.
<namn> No, I appreciate these things. But I'm discussing marketing
<teward> okay, now we're going in a circle here
<teward> because those points are CRUCIAL for marketing Studio to the target audience
<namn> The algorythm doesn't care how much I like it as long as it doesn't gather engagement
<Eickmeyer[m]> From the very beginning, I joined Ubuntu Studio with one thing in mind: what I, as a creative professional in audio/video/photography, wanted to see out of software. That's the lens through which I lead this.
<namn> I understand
<eylul[m]> emotional resonance: ease of use. comfortable, powerful, but works from the start. when adobe promotes a product on facebook, this is what they put forward, and it works.
<eylul[m]> ease of use, convenience. these things are what we are going for. 
<namn> I don't believe they make people engage on facebook though
<namn> But I mean, I have no problem with you giving me your input on the marketing
<eylul[m]> (wonders why eickmeyer was not moderator in first place)
<teward> we gave you the input
<Eickmeyer> So, let's stop with the circular arguments.
<teward> and you basically said that you think we should do Y instead
<namn> Yeah, a professional opinion
<teward> this is now going in a circular argument - you've received input from the Project Leader that this approach you are taking is NOT in line with the goals of the project
<namn> If you can't deal with that then I can't help. Not trying to be facetious
<namn> No, this is not circular
<teward> and now i'm going to go bash my head against upload sponsorship requests
<Eickmeyer> teward: Go for it.
<josefvin> so, as a lurker, I will chime in (hey free channel right!?) -- I consider myself technical. I am a SW professional for 6+ years mostly using linux. However as a musician (target audience) I do not professionally know a lot about how to set up jack, ardour, etc. I am very much interested in the curated, *supported* and preinstalled aspect of ubuntu studio
<josefvin> I am not a pro musician. I don't have a lot of time for it and I want it to be easy. Windows or MacOS would be easier in many ways, but for many reasons I want linux to succeed. I'm not anti big corporations, they are currently a fact of life/necessary evil. But I want to have alternatives. The large collection of powerful software, curated and free, is too personally tempting to resist giving it a try. For me, the success 
<josefvin> of this project is whether it works reaosnably well out of the box with minimal hacking around and stuff. Hacking around is cool and good, but for the basic tasks that I want to do *creatively* it is to be avoided
<josefvin> I'll end my rant there
<Eickmeyer[m]> josefvin: *slow clap*
<josefvin> heh
<eylul[m]> <3
<Eickmeyer[m]> josefvin: This might be the first time I've been able to catch you.
<josefvin> I've kept IRC up for several days now :P
<eylul[m]> josefvin that's a lot of us re what you said. (also yeah well beta/release weeks are where people are sitting here pulling allnighters, or at least following the chat all day)
<Eickmeyer[m]> Welll, you keep disconnecting then. Might be a connection issue.
<eylul[m]> (generally through if you want to contribute, email lists are a great place, if we are not replying here)
<eylul[m]> znc can be... temperemental. (well mine is)
<josefvin> yeah. I have not posted much. I am on the testing and dev mailing lists. Trying to figure out best chat method... I signed up for matrix/riot and telegram as well but it all seems to bridge back here as the main spot. So I'm looking at setting up ZNC or something, not used a lot of IRC in the past
<Eickmeyer[m]> I've been taking to weechat a little, but quassel is pretty easy to set-up.
<eylul[m]> I would try quassel, before trying znc. znc is... a lot of overhead for a single user. 
<Eickmeyer[m]> Same with weechat.
<eylul[m]> is totally talking from experience re znc
<Eickmeyer[m]> Back later, taking the dog out.
<josefvin> [m] == moderator? matrix? *has lots of questions*
<eylul[m]> josefvin, telegram only works with the devel channel, but works fine in my experience. 
<eylul[m]> [m] is matrix
<eylul[m]> moderator here is eickmeyer (and I think teward?)
<eylul[m]> matrix works until the freenode bridge starts having issues
<teward> only if Eickmeyer ops me
<teward> I was acting as his agent when  using ops powers because he forgot the IRC commands
<eylul[m]> (you might notice a really strange one sided conversation of eickmeyer having a conversation with an invisible person. that was me. you could see me chat on matrix side, but not on IRC side)
<eylul[m]> teward I see.
<eylul[m]> sorry didn't mean to distract you btw
<eylul[m]> josefvin: also no problem having questions
<josefvin> thanks for the info. I am trying to observe and read docs more before I bombard with the questions
<eylul[m]> restrain is appreciated, but honestly. if you are stumped feelf ree to ask. 
<josefvin> heard
<eylul[m]> I cannot type but yeah that f was supposed to be attached to the 'ree'
<Eickmeyer[m]> Reeeeee ð
<eylul[m]> xD
<eylul[m]> also brb as I prepare some food
<Eickmeyer[m]> Yeah, I've got house chores.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-04-10
<josefvin> so, looked at the automation repos (did'nt see anything studio specific) -- they look pretty outdated. Are you guys using those (autopilot/ui-toolkit) as part of your build/release process or not so much? And maybe presumptuous of me but can I get a link to the source repo / piipeline/whatever you have that does the acual ustuido build/package stuff? just trying to get the lay of the land
<josefvin> any commentary on the state of things would be appreciated. Maybe the automation is just stable and doesnt need a lot of updates, but all the recent stuff seems to be changing vcs and removing old/obsolete stuff
<josefvin> eickmeyer mentioned you guys were looking at some ci/cd type stuff recently
<Eickmeyer> josefvin: We aren't using that at all. The closest thing we're using to a CI is the autobuilds ppa under https://launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev. Of couse, that requires building recipes for everything. As far as that goes, the person to talk to would be teward.
<josefvin> muchas gracias
<Eickmeyer> Rather, CI stuff.
<Eickmeyer> Of course, josefvin, like I said, we can't really do anything with CI until after release.
<josefvin> understandable
<teward> And CI testing GUI components automatically has its own limitations so you really do need manual testing for a bunch of things
<josefvin> gui testing tends to be a lot of work and rework at best
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-04-11
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: Bug #1872250
<ubottu> bug 1872250 in ubuntustudio-controls (Ubuntu) "ubutustudio-controls usb bridge control does not work when device is plugged in" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1872250
<OvenWerks> sorry, kind of a hard to think of test for this thing...
<OvenWerks> It works except when it doesn't :P
<OvenWerks> I don't know about other DEs but plasma (kubuntu) on using ubuntu-bug gives some sort of book application instead of firefox :P possibly from installing studio on top. 
<OvenWerks> calibre
<OvenWerks> I seemed to get that fixed by setting firefox as default browser but rightclicking on a link in the terminal still has the problem :P
<OvenWerks> fixed
<OvenWerks> But obviously a plasma bug
<OvenWerks> I will look at controls later
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Ok
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Also, strange for calibre to take over that. I've only even had my default web browser show up, so might be some weird configuration that happens with calibre.
<eylul[m]> calibre at some point ended up taking half of my http style default app, never figured why it happened
<eylul[m]> and why it fixed itself
<Eickmeyer> Very odd.
<eylul[m]> nods
<eylul[m]> now I have a similar issue with gimp having taken over some random file associations
<Eickmeyer> Ew.
<eylul[m]> and you have to remove them completely from the default app list for that file format, for it to not do it. (this is in 19.10)
<eylul[m]> its strange. 
<Eickmeyer> Tells me somebody decided their applicaiton is more important than anyone else's.
<eylul[m]> not sure if it is GIMP's mistake
<eylul[m]> I put it on lower priority, and hit save, on plasma
<eylul[m]> then it would somehow not save that, and still show GIMP as top option next time I opened the options
<eylul[m]> even if I didn't open GIMP at all in between
<Eickmeyer> Plasma makes it so easy to do that. No other DE has that capability without jumping through hoops.
<eylul[m]> but remove GIMP completely from the list of available programs, and that works.
<eylul[m]> is too mystified to even file a bug
<Eickmeyer> Newer version of GIMP in 20.04, so there *might* be a fix.
<eylul[m]> nods
<OvenWerks> eylul[m]: when I moved calibre down the list... well actually I move firefox up the list. It seems to work now
<eylul[m]> awesome
<OvenWerks> This is plasma in 20.04
<eylul[m]> and belatedly eickmeyer yes plasma makes it super easy to see what is default in a central location
<eylul[m]> (well 20.04 is coming out very soon :) )
<Eickmeyer> Just under two weeks. Less than a week until Final Freeze, and I can't seem to get anybody on the release team to look at the darktable upload/FFe that a Canonical employee did.
<Eickmeyer> Rather frustrating.
<eylul[m]> :(
<Eickmeyer> I'm tempted to program a bot.
<eylul[m]> starts laughing
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-04-12
<RikMills> Eickmeyer: usually I eventually find it better to work out what r-t member is most likely to be active (or will be soon), and them ping them asking
<RikMills> on your time zone, I guess that might often be vorlon
