#ubuntu-meeting 2005-01-13
* bluefoxicy just hangs out here for the next 6 days
<crimsun> heh
<bluefoxicy> so uh, tech board on the 4th, CC on the 11th
<bluefoxicy> what else goes on here?
<Kamion> that's about it
<Kamion> oh, $RELEASE goals review meetings
<bluefoxicy> isn't that part of techboard?
<Kamion> one of those on the 4th
<Kamion> sometimes, sometimes it's separate. depends what's appropriate
<Kamion> certainly as releases approach it may not make sense to wait two weeks
<Kamion> we try not to be too hidebound by procedure
<bluefoxicy> heh.
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:sladen] : Tuesday 4 January 2004 at 1600 UTC: Technical Board.  Tuesday 11 January 2005: Community Council meeting -- https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/CommunityCouncilAgenda
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:sladen] : Tuesday 4 January 2005 at 1600 UTC: Technical Board.  Tuesday 11 January 2005: Community Council meeting -- https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/CommunityCouncilAgenda
<Treenaks> sladen: having fun? :)
<sladen> mmm, 12 lines of irssi topic-diff
<bluefoxicy> . . . kamion
* bluefoxicy looks at something else he was doing, then breaths a sigh of relief
<bluefoxicy> for a second I thought you were a furry I encountered elsewhere :P
<Kamion> bluefoxicy: definitely not a furry
<Treenaks> hm.. wpasupplicant is in universe :(
<lamont> what's the syntax to tell apt to install a task?
#ubuntu-meeting 2005-01-14
<Kamion> aptitude install ~t<task-name>
<bluefoxicy> pitti: ping
<pitti> bluefoxicy: pong
<pitti> why in #meeting?
<pitti> bluefoxicy: sorry, I could not yet answer your mail
<bluefoxicy> pitti:  uh, just waiting for the tech board meeting tomorrow :)
<pitti> bluefoxicy: I /msg you
#ubuntu-meeting 2005-01-15
* bluefoxicy drags ass over from bed with one eye
<zul> its not that early bluefoxicy 
<bluefoxicy> uh
<bluefoxicy> 11 am?
<zul> still
<mdz> morning
<seb128> hello mdz 
<bluefoxicy> heh, I have a problem waking up, it takes me several hours
<bluefoxicy> normally I become concious at something like 8 or 9 am
<bluefoxicy> and get up at 12 or 1 pm
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:mdz] : Tuesday 4 January 2005 at 1600 UTC: Technical Board -- http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/TechnicalBoardAgenda.  Tuesday 11 January 2005: Community Council meeting -- https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/CommunityCouncilAgenda
* lamont_r notes that it's only 1558 utc
* bluefoxicy tries to get trulux in here
<lamont_r> bluefoxicy: what tz you in?
<bluefoxicy> do I have time to make a glass of koolaid?
<trulux> hi
<bluefoxicy> lamont_r:  EST
<zul> bluefoxicy, it still isnt early ;)
* lamont_r has no pity.  (MST here, and kids in school is really interfering with my night owl schedule)
<mdz> ok
<trulux> hey pitti
<bluefoxicy> heh
<pitti> Hi trulux 
<sivang> hey all
<mdz> first agenda item is to talk about proactive security
<mdz> is JohnMoser here?
<bluefoxicy> yo
<mdz> go ahead
<mdz> what is the question which needs to be resolved?
<trulux> pitti, umm, dunno if it's right to say it before the talk starts, but, i apologize of creating specific SELinux kernel packages
<bluefoxicy> It's actually been trulux and pitti working on it mostly.  I'm not really in a position to talk about . . . whatever they're up to
<trulux> ok, then let me start it
<trulux> pitti, ready?
<bluefoxicy> but with certain things such as Stack Smash Protection and PaX, a compatible or mostly compatible environment can be made in which many security flaws are resolved before they exist, for the most part.
<pitti> sure
<trulux> bluefoxicy, before they exist not, before they get known or even following a similar pattern
<trulux> ;)
<bluefoxicy> . . . yeah, let trulux and pitti explain it.  I'm just here because i want to see what happens about it, and I'd like to see an official statement soon, if not a roadmap.
<trulux> that's because it's called proactive security, which also prevents so-called zero-day exploits
<fabbione> trulux: well we have selinux compiled in already... it just question of a boot flag to enable it
<bluefoxicy> yes
<trulux> fabbione, i'm working on to get a desktop-ready SELinux system for Ubuntu
<trulux> fabbione, also i'm the guy developing the 2.4 backport
<fabbione> trulux: yeah but the kernel is ready already ;)
<pitti> I publically announced the first PaX enabled kernels today
<bluefoxicy> pitti:  sweet.  :)
<mdz> pitti: great
<trulux> fabbione, heh, sure
<trulux> pitti, at this point i would like to make some comments
<pitti> the kernels work mostly fine already. Still some caveats, but Itry to sort them out soon
<pitti> trulux: go ahead
<trulux> kay
<mdz> so, with fabbione's selinux enabling and pitti's PaX kernel, 2 of 3 assignments from Mataro are complete
<pitti> for my part I must say that I would welcome collaboration with hardened-debian
<trulux> pitti, me too, and debhard devs would like to
<trulux> so, this is what i think:
<pitti> mdz: in fact I also digged a bit about what obsd and gentoo do
<pitti> mdz: basically they use gcc-ssp, too
<pitti> mdz: and obsd has something similar like PaX (W^X)
<trulux> 1) we should try to create a team of people with some skills in open source and free software information assurance related software
<trulux> that means:
<trulux> having guys with kernel hacking skills, documentation skills, talking skills and *leading* skills
<trulux> this is more than protecting buffer overflows
<pitti> well, it's about improving general proactive security
<bluefoxicy> pitti: yes, Gentoo uses an SSP GCC exclusively, which brings certain protections with it (variable order rearrangement) under all circumstances.  -fstack-protector is needed to activate the other protections; but both cases have fairly thorough testing.
<pitti> ... and OpenBSD uses SSP for ages now
<bluefoxicy> yeah
<trulux> pitti, the point is that we are not just putting proactive security
<pitti> as we already said, the main isseu with SSP is not the technical side, but the supportability over the whole distro lifecycle
<trulux> from the oytside, people will know it as the way of having the information leak-proof
<trulux> and secured
<lamont_r> and the ssp croud has yet to provide a moduler set of gcc patches, aiui
<pitti> as long as SSP is not upstream, it might become hard to support
<trulux> so, they will think in moving to Ubuntu
<trulux> for example
<trulux> pitti, i've talked to Eoth, i would try to move some things to help with that
<trulux> Etoh
<pitti> and I was told that even Windows XP now has canaries on the stack (SSP-like)
<bluefoxicy> pitti:  Etoh has tried to get SSP upstream, and they requested a current CVS patch, but I don't think it actually went anywhere.
<mdz> trulux: if you aren't talking about proactive security, then please explain what you do mean
<mdz> because the specific items we have discussed so far all fall under that heading
<pitti> trulux: would you like to create SSP packages for universe now? The way we already discussed? 
<lamont_r> bluefoxicy: I expect that they requested a _set_ of individual patches vs cvs-head
<trulux> mdz, it's proactive security for us, information assurance for the users
<pitti> which is basically the same
<trulux> pitti, yes, but with different understanding points
<trulux> i think i can do the SSP packages
<trulux> sure
<mdz> they're both jargon to the user
<pitti> that'd be great
<mdz> better to have a name which is more meaningful to the people who would be involved with it
<trulux> mdz, i still like proactive security ;)
<bluefoxicy> lamont_r: 
<pitti> for the audience, the plan is to provide completely independent gcc-ssp packages in universe for now
<trulux> pitti, but why separating the pkgs in -ssp and non-ssp brands?
<pitti> so they can be used to play without interfering with the release process
<mdz> pitti: a copy of the source?
<bluefoxicy> lamont_r: http://gcc.gnu.org/ml/gcc-patches/2004-09/msg00348.html  Here's the thread. "It seems that your patch is against GCC 3.4.  Do you have a patch against current GCC CVS?" was never followed up.
<pitti> mdz: so far this seems to be necessary
<lamont_r> trulux: it's nice to turn the stack-overrun into a DoS instead of a root vul, but the users still don't consider DoS==secure
<lamont_r> bluefoxicy: ok
<pitti> mdz: unless trulux is able to "wrap" gcc with the protector, but I think that is difficult
<pitti> lamont_r: it keeps your data secure, though
<trulux> pitti, i will so my wrappers
<trulux> show
<mdz> if elmo doesn't hate the idea of duplicating the source too much, I think that it's a good idea to keep them as separate as possible
<bluefoxicy> lamont_r:  I look at security as a user-friendly issue.
<mdz> so that we don't interfere with the progress of the standard gcc
<elmo> I don't much care, as long as we only do it once - ideally, we'd coordinate with doko and do toolchain-source sans crack
<bluefoxicy> lamont_r:  If someone loads a worm onto my computer via a damaged .png image that then proceeds to get local root via a kernel exploit and then eat my hard disk, this is called 'pissing me off'
<pitti> lamont_r: avoiding DoS is a matter of fixing the package, no way to get around this :-)
<lamont_r> pitti: exactly
<bluefoxicy> lamont_r:  a crash annoys me, but I don't need to worry about it eating my machine.
<mdz> likewise for a broad class of vulnerabilities
<trulux> lorenzo@estila:~/proyectos/hardened-toolchain-wrappers $ ls
<trulux> hardened-gcc-wrapper-1.4.2.c  hardened-ld-wrapper-1.4.2.c  Makefile  suspect.c
<trulux> lorenzo@estila:~/proyectos/hardened-toolchain-wrappers $
<pitti> lamont_r: the point is just to confine the impact of holes
<lamont_r> pitti: mind you, I'm all for security blankets, as long as we understand what they are.
<mdz> things like SSP are about low-hanging fruit and maybe-good-enough solutions
<elmo> yeah, I'm a little concerned about the propaganda I'm hearing to be honest - these things are at best a layer
<lamont_r> mdz: agreed.  low hanging fruit are great to grab.  But calling the result "secure" is laughable
<mdz> certainly
<bluefoxicy> I did a quick analysis on how well this stuff would protect you.  http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/USNAnalysis 
<pitti> lamont_r: we talk about "improving" proactive security
<mdz> this is "a feature which makes your system more difficult to attack"
<bluefoxicy> SSP for example would carry about 40% of the torch
<pitti> lamont_r: not reaching the ultimate goal :-)
<lamont_r> then again, that's because the end users see security as an absolute, while we see it as a range
<trulux> wait, can i show what i was meaning? it's just a moment
<mdz> bluefoxicy: I have a feeling that figure is based on the assumption that SSP prevents all buffer overflows
<trulux> we have both wrappers, one for ld and one for gcc
<elmo> which it doesn't
<trulux> i will upload the stuff and you could check it
<bluefoxicy> mdz:  It's more based on the assumption that the classes of buffer overflows that SSP doesn't protect are very rare
<pitti> mdz: SSP does not prevent buffer overflows, neither does PaX
<bluefoxicy> mdz:  mainly, overflows inside structures with data above buffers
<pitti> mdz: it just confines their exploitation
<bluefoxicy> sorry pitti is right, it catches the attack at the end
<mdz> pitti: yes, that's what I should have said
<bluefoxicy> pitti:  doesn't it actually prevents their exploitation?  Things like SELinux confine it right?
<mdz> s/prevents/addresses/
<pitti> mdz: just to clarify for the audience :-)
<pitti> bluefoxicy: yes
<bluefoxicy> mdz:  attacks on SSP cannot be guaranteed uness you can find __guard in the GOT with a format string bug, or in the stack.  If you have PaX + ASLR, you need to inject code to read the GOT offset from a register (%efp) as I understand it
<pitti> bluefoxicy: let's say, in most cases it prevents it, but there might be loopholes which still allow exploitation
<bluefoxicy> and if you have active PaX with memory protections + ASLR, you can't really inject code to do that anyway :)
<bluefoxicy> so it becomes on the whole a 1/4000000 guessing game any route you take
<pitti> ^ that's what my kernels are for
<bluefoxicy> pitti: yes, but in most cases there will be no possible way of guaranteed exploitation.
<pitti> btw, PaX prevents executing stuff in writeable pages, so this closes the 1/400000 chance :-)
<pitti> bluefoxicy: right
<pitti> anyway, I don't think we need to discuss this stuff in the meeting
<lamont_r> just because the code is normally in the stack doesn't mean it needs to be.
<pitti> please leave the technical arguments aside here
<mdz> yes, do
<mdz> we don't need to have an extended debate about these techniques here
<trulux> i agree
* lamont_r knows of  at least one exploit that did not use any code not found in the attacked application
<mdz> as I asked before, what is the decision that needs to be made by the board?
<pitti> this should be more about cooperation
<trulux> go forward to what we are talking about
<bluefoxicy> lamont_r:  ASLR from PaX
<pitti> lamont_r: sure, it leaves holes; as I said, nothing is perfect :-)
<pitti> trulux: do you really think we need a formal statement right now?
<pitti> trulux: so far our inofficial cooperation works quite nice, or not?
<bluefoxicy> lamont_r:  you'd have to guess where the actual code exists.  You can defeat ASLR by injecting code, which takes us back to PaX' executable/writable separation.
<pitti> I think we do need an official statement as soon as we officially support it
<lamont_r> bluefoxicy: off topic
<bluefoxicy> lamont_r:  yes, sorry, i'm getting ahead of the conversation.
<mdz> if there isn't a decision to be made by the tech board, then we need to move on
<trulux> pitti, yes, but i would like an official statement
<mdz> so if there is, please speak up
<pitti> trulux: okay
<trulux> ok, let me package the wrappers and upload them somewhere
<trulux> btw, it would be great to maintain a line of only pax+selinux packages
<trulux> kernels with non-vanilla selinux/lsm stuff
<pitti> trulux, bluefoxicy: what is your idea of an "official" statement?
<trulux> for ex.
<pitti> trulux, bluefoxicy: as already said, we don't need to discuss the technical details here. Just the strategic ones
<Kamion> if no-one is going to answer mdz's question, perhaps this discussion could move elsewhere.
* fabbione gets some chips
<trulux> i have finished the development of a TPE subsystem with LSM, so, it can replace grsec's TPE in an only-selinux kernel package
<pitti> trulux: pleeeease, no tech here
<trulux> ok, sorry
<elmo> TRULUX/PITTI/BLUEFOXICY: PLEASE ANSWER MDZ OR MOVE ON, KTHXBYE
<mdz> the sort of things which would be under the domain of the tech board would be: including packages in the distribution, technical standards for packages, release feature goals
<trulux> mdz, the decision should be: 1) support or not and collaborate with hardened debian
<bluefoxicy> pitti:  a page somewhere accessable that notes that Ubuntu is at least "examining the potential for proactive security enhancements that stop attacks before they happen" would be vague enough to not create a sense of immediate commitment, but would give the userbase something to look forward to, I think.
<mdz> if none of those apply to this discussion, then it is not a technical board matter
<trulux> mdz, i'm answering
<mdz> there seems to already be consensus on the technical aspects of this project
<bluefoxicy> pitti:  It'd also give somewhere for people to check back at once in a while to see if specific release goals were made wrt that
<trulux> 2) decide on how to deploy proactive security enhancements
<mdz> the packages will go into universe, we won't make this a feature goal for Hoary (far too late)
<trulux> 3) stablish a work team
<trulux> kay
<mdz> what was 1) ?
<ogra>  1) support or not and collaborate with hardened debian
<Kamion> teams are a matter for the community council, and in any case should probably just be blessing an existing group of people who're ready to do the work
<mdz> will not be supported for hoary
<trulux> ok
<bluefoxicy> . . . you know what, stop asking me things, I'm dumb.  every time I try to formulate a coherant statement I get too much going on in my head and it comes out gibberish.
<mdz> collaboration is not something which needs official approval; go forth and collaborate at will
<pitti> mdz: +1
<pitti> we can make an official statement when this stuff is a bit more mature
<mdz> 2) what are the deployment requirements?
<pitti> i. e. working and tested packages in universe
<bluefoxicy> alright
<mdz> you need to rebuild a whole bunch of packages and do a lot of testing, yes?
<mdz> s/rebuild/build with SSP/
<pitti> mdz: a good TB decision would be to provide some resources for that
<pitti> i. e. having a part of the archive SSP-rebuilt in a separate archive
<mdz> TB doesn't control any resources as far as I am aware, but I would like to hear what you guys believe you need
<mdz> and can pass that on in other capacities
<trulux> ok
<pitti> it would be nice to have a buildd support for that
<trulux> yes
<pitti> a main-ssp archive
<trulux> wanna build ;)
<mdz> a great deal more than a buildd is required for proper testing
<pitti> to save resources we should skip universe by now
<bluefoxicy> mdz,pitty,trulux:  deployment of SSP requires rebuilding things with SSP.  As far as I'm concerned, adequate testing would make it ideal to just make all the packages in whichever version is SSP protected SSP protected, unless technical issues cropped up (some packages have bugs and SSP exposes them, so they 'break')
<trulux> mdz, i agree
<mdz> unless you only support installation from scratch (and not upgrades from Ubuntu)
<elmo> surely this comes under the derived distro umbrella?
<pitti> elmo: sounds like it could fit there
<mdz> elmo: it falls under the derived-distro-with-different-toolchain umbrella, which is much harder
<trulux> mdz, we need a good machine for rebuilding packages and maintain chroots
<mdz> our derivation goals for Hoary only extend to package selection and branding, and not toolchain divergence
<trulux> as testing packages outside jails is crazy
<bluefoxicy> . . . i do it  o.o
* bluefoxicy looks at his machine, and the format count, reaching the hundreds now
<bluefoxicy> . . . trulux is right, testing packages outside jails is crazy.
<trulux> bluefoxicy, because you use gentoo and you don't need to maintain something working out the box
<trulux> ;P
<mdz> please, one of you write up a wiki page describing your resource requirements for doing a proof-of-concept
<trulux> mdz, i'm uploading some things, wait please
<pitti> yes, good idea
<pitti> and defer this discussion
<mdz> e..g, we need a facility to rebuild everything with a different toolchain, put it in a public archive, allow people to install(?), test it
<mdz> trulux: ok, so you'll take responsibility for writing that?
<pitti> trulux: I can assist you wit that
<lamont_r> mdz: toolchain divergence is only a bootstrapping issue, since the toolchain is just another piece of the archive and chroot.
<trulux> mdz it's already wrote at http://wiki.debian-hardened.org
<trulux> pitti, i'm putting the new dev layout on the wiki, just a moment
<mdz> ok, wonderful.  when you've done that, please send me an email
<trulux> mdz@canonical.com right?
<mdz> correct
<pitti> trulux: let's sort that out without hurry
<pitti> trulux: apart from the meeting
<mdz> yes, take your time
<pitti> next topic?
<mdz> 3) creation of a team is a community council matter
<mdz> so please bring that up at the CC meeting one week from today
<mdz> come prepared with someone who is willing to volunteer to lead the team
<mdz> That would seem to address the questions about proactive security.  Thanks to everyone who is putting effort into that project, and those who participated in the discussion
<mdz> we need to move on to the next agenda item
<mdz> which has to do with accessibility
<hno73>  Accessibility at boot: can it be done?
<mdz> hno73: here?
<mdz> ah, good
<hno73> This is a scaled back proposal from previous ones
<hno73> please see: http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/AccessibilityAtBoot
<mdz> I've skimmed it
<Keybuk> the question seems redundant; either we add a boot option or not
<Keybuk> (d-i question, that is)
<mdz> hno73: what sort of guidance do you need from the technical board?
<Kamion> hno73: additional d-i questions are generally vetoed, I'm afraid
<Keybuk> otherwise is everything you propose packaged and ready for testing?
<Kamion> they will need Mark's approval
<mdz> if you believe it is achievable to implement this before the FeatureFreeze (4 or 5 weeks?), then I think it would make a fine hoary goal
<mdz> Kamion: that page discusses the live CD, rather than the installation
<hno73> None of this has been developed yet, but it should be fairly basic stuff
<mdz> Kamion: a convenient loophole ;-)
<hno73> Though I'm not qualified to do it myself ...
<amu> hno73: for the liveCD it should be possible, guess for hoary there isnt any time for it.
<Keybuk> I tend to agree, though beware that we'd need to turn off bootsplash if you want a prompt during boot
<Kamion> mdz: only in a parenthesis, most of it seems to be about the live CD
<Kamion> er, the install CD
<Keybuk> also a lot of the features seem GNOME-specific, and there's already an accessibility dialog to configure those ?
<mdz> hno73: the technical board doesn't control development resources, so if there isn't anyone to do the work (yet), we don't have much to talk about here
<mdz> hno73: however, feel free to contact me via email with a bounty proposal
<mdz> hno73: we can post it on the website, and if you know anyone who might be interested in doing the implementation, I can contact them on behalf of Canonical
<hno73> mdz: ok, will do
<hno73> It's just that the Ubuntu web page sais: "Ubuntu includes the very best in translations and accessibility infrastructure"
<mdz> that is one of our goals
<hno73> and we're quite far from that ATM
<mdz> agreed
<mdz> the major goals for the Hoary release were established months ago, and need to be nearing completion at this stage
<mdz> I think there is time to do an accessible live CD, if there is someone to do the work
<mdz> but the existing development resources are pretty much allocated for the Hoary timeframe
<mdz> moving on
<mdz> fabbione: kernel?
<fabbione> mdz: perhaps we can postpone the kernel stuff to this evening meeting?
<mdz> it sounds like you're proposing a team
<fabbione> i think it's more appropriate for the other
<fabbione> well also..
<mdz> in which case it should be the CC meeting
<fabbione> let's skip the kernel for now
<mdz> ok
<mdz> sparc?
<fabbione> yes
<fabbione> this TB...
<fabbione> well i have main done since a long while now
<fabbione> tested sarge -> hoary upgrades
<fabbione> installed from scratch....
<fabbione> only a few glitches here and there
<mdz> are you proposing that sparc become an officially supported architecture for hoary?
<fabbione> mainly because of a few packages that i didn't spot from universe and that should be instead moved to main
<fabbione> i want to propose at least its inclusion in the archive
<fabbione> 1) main is up and running
<fabbione> 2) it will free a bunch of my resources to test installations
<mdz> ok, I have no problem with it being part of the archive
<fabbione> 3) i could start building universe
<mdz> and I believe Mark approved it as well
<fabbione> my original proposal was to have a separate archive for non-official arches...
<fabbione> and Mark seconded that
* Keybuk has no problem either
<mdz> oh?
<mdz> elmo: thoughts?
<fabbione> mdz: something like sparc.ubuntu.com
<fabbione> where you see only sparc binaries
<Kamion> (and arch: all, presumably)
<fabbione> to avoid to pollute the mirrors with an arch that might as well disappear if it doesn't takeoff
<mdz> what would the idea be?  to make it easier to mirror only official architectures?
<fabbione> Kamion: clearly
<fabbione> mdz: an arch is still a few GB
<elmo> mdz: I'm quite happy to do either, I just didn't have time at Mataro.  doing it separately requires some work, which is why it didn't get done
<fabbione> and if for example in 2 months there will be nobody doing sparc...
<mdz> elmo: which do you feel makes more sense?
<Keybuk> would we use billie for this?
<fabbione> we don't want to kill the mirror with it
<mdz> billie?
<elmo> Keybuk: not for one arch, probably not no, I can just hack up the two mirror masters to ignore sparc and create a separate sparc.ubuntu.com
<elmo> mdz: personally, I'd put it straight in.  it's a very stable arch, it's not going to be flushed.  if nothing comes of it, nothing comes of it.  the mirror's already and insane size
<fabbione> elmo: yup.. we know :-) i am just taking up again the discussion to reach a full consensum with an updated status
<Keybuk> mdz: the bit of dak Kinni wrote to do second-class-citizen
<lamont_r> mdz: yeah, it's not like it's hppa or something.
<elmo> fabbione: I know, you know, mdz didn't tho, and he asked :)
<mdz> elmo: your call, as far as I'm concerned
<fabbione> elmo: i am happy with both the solutions
<elmo> gar, let's just go with sparc.ubuntu.com - it's what we previously agreed on - I will get it done this weeke
<fabbione> i am anal to avoid problems later if something "goes wrong"
<elmo> s/e$//
<lamont_r> elmo: although for actually populating the real archive, it'd be nice to use fabbione's archive to seed chroots and upload from that.
<mdz> elmo: do we have a policy that all the builds should happen on the LAN?
<elmo> mdz: I'd like to make one, certainly for supported architectures
<elmo> before sparc.ubuntu.com merges, i'd like to have it rebuilt on our buildds
<trulux> kernel oops
<trulux> sorry
<lamont_r> elmo: agreed
<fabbione> elmo: agreed too.
<mdz> ok, but for sparc,ubuntu.com, what will we do about builds?
<fabbione> even if i trust the work i did, i am not as experienced as lamont_r and you
<fabbione> mdz: i could ship my sparc to the DC if required...
<elmo> mdz: use fabbione's for now, if he's happy to do that?  getting our own buildds is predicated on sparc gaining some momentum
<fabbione> it's a U1
<lamont_r> fabbione: and a full rebuild is always a good thing, unless it's going to be pushed on the mirrors
<mdz> elmo: use fabbione's, and have him download sources from the DC and upload binaries there?
<mdz> elmo: or ship it over?
<fabbione> mdz: that's what i already do
<mdz> fabbione: you upload binaries already? where do they go?
<elmo> mdz: fabbione's remotely makes more sense to me, if he's happy to do it
<elmo> I don't see much sense in shipping machines around - AFAICR that'd be reasonably expensive
<fabbione> mdz: people.u.c/~fabbione/sparc/
<mdz> ok
<mdz> sounds like you guys are already in agreement about what to do, and it sounds fine to me
<elmo> if we're going to do sparc long term, we'll get machines within a couple of days
<mdz> basically moving ~fabbione/sparc/ to sparc.ubuntu.com
<elmo> (for the DC)
<lamont_r> elmo: does taht require some tweaks in the signature checking?
<fabbione> lamont_r: my .changes are all signed
<mdz> when sparc.ubuntu.com is up, we can make an announcement about it
<elmo> lamont_r: yeah, it' will
<mdz> as an alpha test or something
<fabbione> i only need to tell elmo the key :-)
<fabbione> elmo: just remember that i don't have a pool over there...
<fabbione> there are only plain _sparc.deb
<lamont_r> fabbione: good. (but our signatures are only good for source uploads, and making your sig ok for binary uploads would be a policy issue...)
<elmo> fabbione: as long as you have .changes, I don't care
<mdz> fabbione: as long as you promise not to upload other binaries ;-)
<lamont_r> fabbione: so he needs to make your sig ok for sparc binary uploads, but not the others.
<fabbione> elmo: sure.. i have all the history of stage2
<mdz> ok, it sounds like we're finished with the meeting
<fabbione> mdz: i am not THAT INS4N3... YOU KNOW, DON'T YOU? :P
<fabbione> lamont_r: gotcha
<mdz> we're finished with the set agenda, anyway
<mdz> any last-minute items?
<lamont_r> fabbione: hell - I upload binaries every now and then... I'm glad for the security blanket.
<fabbione> KERNEL ARFH KERNEL ARFH
<Keybuk> Hoary meeting, is that in here at 2200 UTC?
<fabbione> lamont_r: i don't... remember.. i am anal.. X.. kernel... hundreds of users knocking on my door....
<mdz> Keybuk: yes
<mdz> fabbione: we agreed to defer that to CC (for the team) and the hoary devel meeting (for anything else)
<fabbione> mdz: i know.. i was just kidding :-)
<mdz> so, hearing none, the tech board meeting is adjourned
<mdz> thanks, everyone
<lamont_r> thanks mdz
<fabbione> thanks guys!
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:mdz] : Tuesday 4 January 2005 at 1600 UTC: Technical Board -- http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/TechnicalBoardAgenda.  Tuesday 18 January 2005: Community Council meeting -- https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/CommunityCouncilAgenda
<fabbione> cya in a few hours
<seb128> thanks
<pitti> did I understand that right?
<pitti> we don't have hoary meeting today?
<ogra> pitti: nope....wrong :)
<fabbione> pitti: at 22:00 UTC today
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Keybuk] : Tuesday 18 January 2005 at 1600 UTC: Technical Board -- http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/TechnicalBoardAgenda.  Tuesday 11 January 2005: Community Council meeting -- https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/CommunityCouncilAgenda
<seb128> pitti: tonight, 2200 UTC
<pitti> fabbione: because of <mdz> fabbione: we agreed to defer that to CC ...
<mdz> Keybuk: thanks ;-)
<pitti> ah, ok
<fabbione> pitti: it was for the KERNEL stuff :-)
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Keybuk] : Tuesday 4 January 2005: Hoary Goals meeting.  Tuesday 11 January 2005: Community Council meeting -- https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/CommunityCouncilAgenda.  Tuesday 18 January 2005 at 1600 UTC: Technical Board -- http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/TechnicalBoardAgenda.
<pitti> fabbione: sure, sorry
<fabbione> no problem
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Keybuk] : Tuesday 4 January 2005 at 2200UTC: Hoary Goals meeting.  Tuesday 11 January 2005: Community Council meeting -- https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/CommunityCouncilAgenda.  Tuesday 18 January 2005: Technical Board -- http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/TechnicalBoardAgenda.
<sivang> there's a goal meeting again?
<Keybuk> mdz: do you want to propose an alternate time for next week's tech-board meeting?  one more friendly to you?
<mdz> Keybuk: yeah, I'll take that to ubuntu-devel
<Keybuk> uh, two-weeks even :p
<Keybuk> okies
<trulux> mdz, http://wiki.debian-hardened.org/Development_layout_organization
<trulux> mdz, it's still a draft
<trulux> and now i must go
<trulux> see you later!
<thom> do we have an agenda for this evening?
<mdz> thom: I have some notes, yeah
* mdz rings the meeting bell
<mjg59> mdz: Is there an agenda?
* fabbione raises his hand
<mdz> mjg59: a short one, yes
* mvo_ too
<pitti> agenda = hoary goal list?
<mdz> shall we go over the agenda, or just dive in?
<Mithrandir> where's the agenda? :)
<ogra> + fabionne and the kernel lovestory
<Mithrandir> (except for mail, obviously)
<mdz> first item is to review the pending seed changes
<mdz> seed freeze was some time ago
<mdz> but we've been fairly lax in tending to seed changes
<mdz> so if there is anything on there which is urgent for hoary, we should discuss it and tend to it now
<fabbione> 2.6.10 as deafult kernel?
<jdub> the proposals pages need to be farmed for seed updates, i can do that if you want
<doko> I need to update the seed for the ISDN stuff, after the meeting
<ogra> gaim-dev is gone into experimenal today, could that be included ?
<mdz> I'm looking at them now
<mdz> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/BaseSeedProposals http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DesktopSeedProposals http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/SupportedSeedProposals http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/ShipSeedProposals
<mjg59> We need vbetool for ACPI, but I only got that packaged last week
<thom> i need to update the seeds from the meeting
<jdub> is there much new stuff since going through them at mataro?
<thom> will do so after the meeting
<mdz> some of them have to do with feature goals, I think
<thom> uh, the first meeting there was the BOF in mataro
<mdz> oh, those pages don't include the seed updates whihc were already made?
<mdz> gah
<mdz> ok, we'll defer that, then.  maybe we don't have as much to do as I thought
<mdz> next agenda item is getting caught up on Debian merges
<mdz> UpstreamVersionFreeze is scheduled for tomorrow
<lamont_r> mdz: meaning all the sync's need to be current by tomorrow?
<mdz> we should either set a later deadline to allow us to get caught up with merges (which inlcude some new upstream versions), or delay UVF slightly so that we can catch up
<mdz> jdub: what's your opinion?
<seb128> ogra: that's a binary package of gaim, right ? 
<ogra> seb128: nope, i thought it were finally the missing headers...
* ogra looks
<jdub> mdz: if we delay UVF, won't that mean more merges to catch up with?
<seb128> ogra: the headers come from gaim, so that's a binary made from the gaim source package
<lamont_r> mdz: I would think allowing the rest of the week for merges of the as-of-UVF package versions to get in would do...
<Keybuk> mdz: bear in mind that shit's going to keep falling until we turn off the hose :o)  so we should decide how long we want to "catch up" and turn off lorraine N-<that number> days beforehand
<mdz> jdub: yeah, it's mostly a matter of naming I suppose
<mdz> jdub: the question is how UVF should apply to merges
<mdz> Keybuk: right
<mdz> but since  everyone has only just returned from holidays, we don't have N days
<jdub> UVF should be the sync-stopper, merges we can handle as bugfixes
<mdz> there are 89 open merge bugs
<mdz> we should be able to kill them in a day or two
<mdz> jdub: ok, but we should have a deadline for them
<pitti> so, sync days tomorrow and the day after?
* lamont_r plans a merge-rampage for after the meeting
<mdz> since they do introduce a lot of new code from upstream
<ogra> seb128: http://people.debian.org/~robot101/gaim/dists/experimental/main/source/
<Keybuk> elmo: about?
<elmo> yeah?
<mdz> UVF + 7 days should be more than enough
<Mithrandir> ogra: what's in that?  gaim-dev?
<mdz> jdub: work for you?
<Mithrandir> ogra: if so, I have the patch and we could ubuntu it.
<fabbione> <Keybuk> elmo: about?
<fabbione> ops
<fabbione> sorry
<Keybuk> elmo: how much time do you need to lobotomize lorraine so that syncs stop, but needs-merged.txt still gets updated?
<jdub> mdz: was going to suggest that myself :)
<mdz> Keybuk, elmo: did you talk about the MOM/lorraine stuff, to provide for ongoing merges after new versions are no longer synched?
<mdz> jdub: ok, done.  please add it to the wiki schedule
<ogra> Mithrandir: that would be great....that should be the headers and such...needed for lots of little tools tat just come up on gnomefiles.org
<mdz> once UVF is executed, I'll assign the merge bugs out
<jdub> we need a clayton's elmo for handling archive-related changes when he's away
<mdz> another question is what to do about universe merges
<elmo> Keybuk: very little
<elmo> it's probably commenting out one line [tho I haven't checking] 
<seb128> Mithrandir: you say that you're going to update gaim ? (I planned to do this but if you are going to do it no problem with me :p)
<fabbione> mdz: i think we can be more flexible with universe...
<jdub> mdz: last time around we took version sync requests fairly regularly
<Mithrandir> ogra: I've been waiting for it to pass through NEW in Debian, that's why it hasn't been done anything with.
<Mithrandir> seb128: I could do it, sure.
<mdz> fabbione: agreed, but we need to connect the work-to-be-done with some people to do it
<ogra> Mithrandir: as long as it can get in hoary its fine :)
<mdz> since we'll be focusing on main
<Mithrandir> seb128: I guess this is just the gaim-dev package currently missing?
<fabbione> mdz: we don't have master-of-universe, do we?
<mdz> this should be MOTU territory, but MOTU is a bit vaporous at the moment
<lamont_r> mdz: that's 89 merge-_MAIN_ bugs open?
<mdz> that's a next-tuesday discussion, I suppose
<Kamion> back, sorry to be late
<jdub> mdz: so while we can be less stringent about bug priority and so on, we should have people willing and able to test the stuff they propose for update
<mdz> lamont_r: 89 total, maybe 75 main
<lamont_r> ok
<doko> mdz: I have to catch up on the python version change for universe, currently it's done for main only (and some packages from universe)
<mdz> doko: that's something we should farm out to MOTU if possible
<doko> sorry, MOTU?
<elmo> there are python packages in universe?? how did they escape sabdfl's PYTHONWILLALLBEINMAINKTHXBYE streak?
<lamont_r> masters of the universe
<thom> master of the universe
<mdz> doko: the community-based team formed to maintain universe
<mdz> elmo: we talked him out of some of them
<mdz> one other quick item before we dive into feature goals
<jdub> mdz: are we going to finish the sweep of python in main stuff to sanitise it a bit?
<mdz> does anyone here care dearly about mozilla-thunderbird?
<jdub> mdz: what's up with it?
<Keybuk> mdz: sabdfl, oh, wait, "here" :p
<fabbione> <- i do...
<thom> i care deeply about it burning in the utmost fires of hell
<Mithrandir> mdz: a bit, yes.
<jdub> mdz: oh, wanting 1.0?
<mdz> jdub: you mean, now that we have some ammunition to show why it's not a very good policy to blindly include python-*? :-)
<mdz> thunderbird needs love
<mdz> lots of it
<fabbione> mdz: i use thunderbird... but i don't love it enough to maintain YA5GSP
<elmo> I think thom is the ideal candidate to show it all the love, care and attention it needs
<jdub> mdz: well, we started looking at stuff in mataro, would be nice to finish it off
<mdz> fabbione: thunderbird is only ~30M ;-P
<seb128> yeah, thom !
<thom> urgh
<thom> i can't take two mozilla packages i don't use. firefox is quite enough :P
<doko> what was the criteria for inclusion of python stuff in warty?
<mdz> jdub: yes, I think we should; I think we can do it equally well between the two of us after the meeting or so, though
<fabbione> mdz: right.. gimme ooo and glibc.. so i can beat the record for the "one man with the biggest (source) package"
<jdub> mdz: suggest we ask for help with thunderbird, upgrading to 1.0 as well
<mdz> fabbione: if no one will stand behind it, it is going to rot, and I will propose that we remove it from main for hoary
<jdub> mdz: sure, didn't want to start a foodfight
<fabbione> mdz: fine for me...
<fabbione> move to out of main...
<fabbione> i use it.. it doesn't mean i want it in main ;)
<jdub> mdz: that's a good threat to get someone to help with it :)
<jdub> mdz: but it's a worthy thing to have in main
<Kamion> hey, mozilla-thunderbird is in ship
* Kamion gleefully seconds ditching it
<mdz> jdub: ok, will you send a call for help to some appropriate places?
<elmo> err, there's a lot of user love for thunderbird
<lamont_r> mdz: push the big red button
<elmo> not saying that should necessarily matter, just unhelpfully pointing it out
<Kamion> elmo: true *grump*
<jdub> mdz: yes
<Mithrandir> how bad is the bug list for m-t?
<fabbione> Mithrandir: i think longer than the one for a1.3
<lamont_r> the other big question on that front is whether it's 0.9 or 1.0
<mdz> only about 15 bugs
<mdz> but it needs a new upstream version, review of the bugs, matching them to upstream, working with users to clarify and resolve the bugs, etc.
<mdz> i.e., love
<mdz> lamont_r: hmm, good point.  if we're going to update it, it should be close to UVF
<Mithrandir> mdz: I could give it a shot, I think losing it would a) look bad and b) be a shame.
<lamont_r> 1.0 has been out for a bit, but not packaged for debian
<mdz> jdub: willing to make an exception for t-bird 1.0 vs. UVF in order to allow time for someone to step up?
<mdz> Mithrandir: do you use it?
<Mithrandir> mdz: somewhat, yes.
<jdub> mdz: relativelys short amount of time, yeah :)
<Mithrandir> mdz: it's my local GUI client of choice and I use it for RSS feeds.
<jdub> mdz: keep in mind it's been released for some time
* fabbione scratches his head.. looking at Mithrandir and thinking about Simira 
<mdz> Mithrandir: it's yours if you want it
<ogra> lol
<mdz> Mithrandir: if you want to look at it, but hand it off to someone else if they step forward, that's fine too
<Simira> did I lose something here?
* Mithrandir wonders what got lost in fabbione's Itaglish-to-Norwaglish translation.
<fabbione> Simira: nevermind.. i will tell you later
<Mithrandir> mdz: ok
<Simira> fabbione: you better.
<mdz> great
<jdub> Mithrandir: if you look at it, can you give me an idea of how badly broken it is before i announce? :)
<Mithrandir> jdub: willdo
<Simira> hey, how about sharing your love with firefox as well?
<thom> i'm gonna apply love to firefox in the next couple of days
<mdz> Simira: firefox gets so much love from thom, it would burst if any more were applied
<Simira> ok, nice
<thom> i even have patches from upstream for some of the bugs ;P
<fabbione> nobody wants to give love to the kernel maintainer?
<pitti> thom: please tell me you have a patch for the window injection :-/
<mdz> who could fail to love fabio?
<ogra> fabbione: we all love you....
<thom> pitti: i wish :(
<fabbione> :D
<Mithrandir> fabbione: you have a gf. :)
* sivang loves fabbione
* pitti hugs fabbione 
<mdz> one other project which needs a home:
<doko> fabbione: too late you're getting married :-P
<fabbione> Mithrandir: a fiance ;)
<Simira> fabbione: of course we love you *hugs*
<mdz> the LSB init script modifications need some serious review; many of them are buggy in various ways
<Mithrandir> fabbione: gf being a subset of fiance.
<lamont_r> fabbione: we all love you.
<pitti> mdz: buggy in which sense?
<lamont_r> as long as the kernels keep coming. :)
* fabbione feels the love...
<thom> mdz: oh dear lord
<fabbione> ahha
* sivang ponders to the log to see what he missed.
<mdz> they need a thorough review by someone very comfortable with shell scripting
<fabbione> thom: like they don't work on serial console...
<mdz> pitti: changing the behaviour of the script
<lamont_r> pitti: abort in the presence of errors, as opposed to saying 'fail'
* lamont_r raises his hand
<Keybuk> mdz: we're going usplurge for hoary still, yes?
<Kamion> (why don't they use 'trap', anyway?)
<thom> or frame buffer in some circumstances, iirc
<mdz> Keybuk: hopefully
<Keybuk> so we could kinda accidentally revert the nathaniel infection and nobody would notice?
<lamont_r> Kamion: not all failures are that trivial to deal with
<mdz> Keybuk: well, for usplash n+1, we'll need to put it back
<lamont_r> Keybuk: that would reduce the merge count...
<mdz> so that the scripts communicate with usplashd
<Kamion> lamont_r: sure, but it would reduce the set +e evil that's been introduced in a number of them
<lamont_r> set +e is wrong
<Kamion> which is basically only so that it can go on to test $?
<lamont_r> mdz: I'll take the script review
<mdz> lamont_r: ok
<Keybuk> phew, I was about to volunteer, thanks lamont :p
<fabbione> ahah
<thom> the whole thing really needs to get rethought, there're also about 50 packages that got missed in warty
<lamont_r> Keybuk: please modify your patch breaker to sort out init.d patches. kthanksbye
<mdz> thom: that too, but first priority is to fix the broken ones
<Keybuk> lamont_r: it does
<lamont_r> awesome
<thom> yeah
<Keybuk> http://people.ubuntu.com/~scott/patches/*_lsb-init.patch
<mdz> lamont_r: yeah, you'll be reviewing that stuff anyway, so you can look at those along the way
<mdz> perfect
<lamont_r> mdz: right
<mdz> so, feature goals
<mdz> we ran down the list in Mataro
<mdz> and of course, in the process, received some new must-have feature goals
<elmo> Keybuk: is that still branding damaged? :)
<Kamion> (if anyone's editing HoaryGoals, I just saved it; reload)
<mdz> Mark's list is here: http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/MarksHoaryGoals
<Keybuk> elmo: yeah, it's on my TODO list
<mdz> I need to finish merging that with HoaryGoals
<lamont_r> brb
<mdz> but among the things which are being bumped to the top of the list are the hardware database and launchpad integration
<pitti> ugh, I should continue to work on hwfu
<Kamion> can I request that somebody else take the rest of the UTF-8 task? I've done the glibc generate-UTF-8-locales-on-upgrade bit, but I received two newish hoary goals in Mataro
<ogra> me too...
<Kamion> or at least two things that weren't previously on the list
<mdz> oh, and automated testing
<mdz> Kamion: yes, I think that's appropriate
<jdub> mdz: i thought automated testing was right off?
<lamont_r> mdz: ISTR automated testing landing in my lap
<mdz> jdub: that's not what Mark said
<mdz> unless he changed his mind
<Mithrandir> Kamion: the UTF8MigrationTool and such?
<mdz> Mithrandir: yes
<jdub> i must have missed that mind change somehow
<Mithrandir> Kamion: I've actually considered doing it, me being one of the few people who bitch and complain about the beast.
<mdz> Mithrandir: it's bountyable
<Mithrandir> money's always welcome
<Mithrandir> (:
* Kamion would certainly be more than happy to trust whatever Mithrandir does on that front
<mdz> ok, Mithrandir, let's discuss details after the meeting
<mdz> ogra and pitti have been working on the hardware database stuff
<Mithrandir> mdz: ok.
<mdz> pitti, you already have a lot on your list, so I would prefer that the work be distributed to others if possible
<pitti> ogra: would you be interested in continuing with hwfu? do it together with me?
<mdz> pitti: of course, if you're very passionate about it, I don't mind if you want to work on it, but you have some heavy goals already
<pitti> mdz: well, I can defer the ssp/grsec stuff a little, it's no hoary goal
<pitti> mdz: I would not mind giving away hwfu
<pitti> mdz: the basic architecture is there
<pitti> and it works pretty well
<ogra> pitti: sure, i was planning to....if i finally got the utf8 in the lockscreen win ready....but i think i can drop that in in the state it is
<pitti> it's now a matter of writing plugins for various backends
<mdz> pitti: you have already signed up for language packs, automated testing and hardware database in addition to ongoing security support etc.
<pitti> mdz: right; before christmas I did nothing else apart from security udpates
<pitti> mdz: but now it calmed down a little
<pitti> mdz: today I talked to carlos about lang packs
<pitti> mdz: and I think I need some time to set up the automated building of the debs
<mdz> pitti: automated testing has a more flexible schedule because it isn't going into the release
<fabbione> brb
<pitti> I think lang packs should be my first priority now
<mdz> pitti: just remember that security work tends to come in large, unexpected and unwelcome batches :-)
<pitti> as soon as rosetta is able to export new stuff, I setup the automated building, I guess
<pitti> mdz: I experienced that :-)
<mdz> so make sure that you budget time for it, so that it doesn't cause feature goals to slip
<pitti> yes
<mdz> jdub, mvo: how are the package management tools coming?
<ogra> pitti: as long as i can bug you with one or the other question....i'll take over....
<pitti> ogra: sure
<ogra> :)
<pitti> ogra: I mirrored the arch archive, so you can read it
<mdz> jdub, mvo: in particular, when can we add them to the default desktop?
<mvo_> mdz: I think upgrade-notifier, ubuntu-cd detection and the new sources.list editors is pretty nice
<jdub> mdz: we should do immediately
<mvo_> agreed
<ogra> pitti: great.... i'll check it out
<jdub> mdz: there are still things to clean up, but we should add them now
<Keybuk> aren't we still integrating them into one super-tool ?
<jdub> mvo_: we should meet later and go over the changes
<mdz> ok
<mvo_> jdub: ok
<mdz> so, some seed changes, and adding upgrade-notifier to the default session, right?
<jdub> mdz: yeah
<mvo_> yes
<mdz> oh, and adding gnome-app-installer to the menu
<jdub> it's in the menu, but in the wrong place ;)
<Keybuk> can we not rename it to update-notifier?
<mdz> jdub: what about the infrastructure for providing updated .desktop files to g-a-i?
<Keybuk> confusing the terms "update" and "upgrade" is bad, m'kay
<jdub> mdz: going to do that when my mirror completes :)
<mdz> jdub: or are we going to wimp out on that and do it by hand for hoary?
<Mithrandir> Keybuk: people don't know the difference anyhow; apt-get update; apt-get upgrade confuses people, it seems.
<jdub> mdz: it'll probably be fairly by-hand, but it'll still be a script to run over the archive
<mdz> Keybuk: I agree, the naming could probably use some work
<Keybuk> Mithrandir: but right now we're confusing both in the same sets of tools
<Keybuk> at least using one term exclusively would be nice
<mdz> either update-manager and update-notifier, or upgrade-manager and upgrade-notifier
<Mithrandir> Keybuk: I agree
<jdub> update, preferably
<mdz> which one is less painful to modify?
<jdub> upgrade-manager is not exactly optimal for upgrades yet ;)
<mdz> Mithrandir: apt-get update will become more or less obsolete with upgrade-notifier ;-)
<Mithrandir> mdz: sed -i s,update,upgrade,g $(find -type f) in the source tree of one of them? :)
<mdz> jdub: what needs to be done there?
<mdz> jdub: is ross burton around?
<mvo_> jdub: what's wrong with upgrade-manager?
<jdub> mdz: ross did gai, mitario did the update manager
<mdz> oh, right
<jdub> mvo_: it's not optimal for upgrades (it's fine for updates)
<mdz> jdub: s/// then
<jdub> mvo_: but i think that's post-hoary
<mvo_> jdub: ahh, agreed
<jdub> mdz: mvo and i will give status report after discussing it
<mdz> jdub: didn't we just finish agreeing that "update" and "upgrade" were easily confused? ;-)
<mdz> jdub: ok
<mvo_> I'll rename upgrade-notifier to update-notifier then
<jdub> mdz: they are, because they mean different things
<mdz> there is a new handwavy goal to integrate the desktop with launchpad
<mvo_> I hope that makes everyone happy :)
<mdz> this is the Help->report a bug, Help->translate this app sort of stuff
<jdub> mvo_: don't start that just yet tho ;)
<mvo_> jdub: ok :)
<mdz> I hope that when we spec it out, it will reduce to adding some standard menu entries which open the browser with certain URLs based on the package name
<mdz> but at any rate, we need someone to do the work
<mdz> jdub: do you have a bounty candidate for this?
<jdub> mdz: yeah, a few come to mind
<jdub> mdz: we just want help menu changes, right?
<mdz> jdub: it hasn't been formally specified, but yes, I hope it'll boil down to that
<jdub> (at this stage, we can do more later)
<doko> mdz: if that can be done in February, I'll look at it.
<mdz> jdub: let's get with Mark soon and nail down exactly what he expects for Hoary
<mdz> doko: this needs to be done by feature freeze, which is 1st week of feb, I think
<Keybuk> mdz: heh, I've been trying to get Mark to agree on URLs for HCT for a while now ... :p  let me know how you get on
<mdz> and since that date has come up, I'd like to ask if anyone is in trouble with their feature goal assignments
<Kamion> I'm a little worried about kickstart, but it should be achievable at least in skeletal form by then
<fabbione> mdz, Kamion: i am not 100% sure how much i can dedicate to the kickstart
<pitti> mdz: hw database might not be ready by Feb 1
<Kamion> I'm unlikely to be able to give any time to autotesting before feature freeze
<mdz> a few goals can be flexible with respect to feature freeze
<mdz> that date is aimed at stuff which is going in the distribution proper
<mdz> automated testing can slip
<mdz> (featurefreeze, that is)
<fabbione> mdz: i am mostly binded to the 2 things we discussed earlier...
<mdz> pitti: the collection part of the hardware database needs to be done by feb 1
<mdz> pitti: ogra has said that he can devote time to it, so we'll revisit it after we've talked about that more
<mdz> s/feb 1/feature freeze/
<sivang> mdz: I would also like to take a look into the launchpad integration menu stuff, I'll see if I can discuss with jdbub after the meeting. 
<pitti> mdz, ogra: hmm, then we need to speed that up
<mdz> it's actually the 9th or whatever
<mdz> sivang: ok, please do
<jdub> mdz: i have yet to nail down the panel and icon stuff, but that's mostly been due to christmas / new year, etc. i'm going to hammer on that this and next week -> icon stuff at least can slip slightly past the preview.
<Keybuk> mdz: I may have one or two more boot-process changes to speed it up a bit; should be ok by Feb 1 though
<mdz> Kamion, fabbione: so about kickstart
<pitti> Simira: please finish g-s-t first
<ogra> pitti: will be possible....
<pitti> Simira: sorry, that wasn't for you
<pitti> sivang: please finish g-s-t first, that's critical
<sivang> pitti: ofcourse, I just got the idea that the menu thing can wait for feb? 
<fabbione> mdz: as i wrote above...
<mdz> Kamion: you have taken on a huge load in terms of high-priority goals; is there anything that you can shed to make room for kickstart?
<mdz> Kamion: I think you're most qualified to work on it at this point
<Kamion> agreed
<lamont_r> Kamion: you're welcome to shed some work my way
<Kamion> autotesting is really the only primary goal left, I think
<thom> mine also
<mdz> Kamion: I think it goes without saying that you probably won't have time to work on automated testing, so let's take your name off of that
<Kamion> most of the rest I've made sizable inroads on or more or less completed
<mdz> Kamion: unless you really want it
<Simira> pitti: thanks for your trust, but you won't have me to touch that one ;p
<mdz> kickstart is higher priority in terms of the release schedule
<pitti> Simira: xchat autocompletion error... :-)
<Kamion> nah, I expressed half-hearted interest at the meeting and my name ended up on the list. :)
<mdz> that's what I thought :-)
<seb128> pitti: I gave you the command to get a nice completion this morning :p
<mdz> Kamion: what other major pieces are on your plate for pre-feature-freeze?
<Simira> pitti: I reckoned, yes. :)
<mdz> Kamion: anything where thom or lamont could give you some support?
<Kamion> in general I think it would be a good idea to get more people involved in installer bugs; I'll see if I can find good introductory pieces to hand out
<Kamion> there's no single big piece but a lot of little ones
<mdz> Kamion: if you need to delay bug work to work on features during the next few weeks, that's entirely appropriate
<thom> (note i can also do itanium testing now)
<mdz> Kamion: but I understand that you probably want to avoid falling behind
<Mithrandir> thom: lucky you.  Fun with noisy beasts at home, or have you remote access to a Bdale Facilities?
<lamont_r> thom: d-i currently dies on ia64
<fabbione> thom: it would be nice if you can start testing the kernel for ia64....
<lamont_r> Mithrandir: he has his very own a500/zx2000 love
<Kamion> the other major featurish pieces are the two things Mark brought up in Mataro (first-stage questions, netcfg rf-kill-switch detection) and the low-priority oem stuff
<mdz> Kamion: will you think on it a bit, and follow up with me, thom and lamont after the meeting to distribute some of that work?
<Kamion> I've been making inroads on the first-stage questions thing and I suspect I'm probably the best person to continue that, but the kill-switch thing could be passed to somebody else
<Kamion> yes, will follow up
<mdz> thanks
<mdz> fabbione: the two things you referred to earlier are the kernel and the other project?
<fabbione> mdz: yes
<Kamion> the other main reason I've been falling behind a little more than expected is getting engaged, which was sort of not on the project plan. :)
<mdz> fabbione: is there any feature work pending for the kernel, or primarily bugs?
<Mithrandir> Kamion: congratulations! :)
<lamont_r> Kamion: as long as she knows what she's marrying into....
<Kamion> oh, she does
<daniels> Kamion: surely that came way too late after the appropriate freeze ...
<Keybuk> Kamion: congrats!
<fabbione> mdz: no features.. only tons and tons of bugs
<mdz> Kamion: just don't schedule the date for April, OK? ;-)
<thom> Kamion: dude, congrats!
<sivang> Keybuk: congrets!
<Kamion> it's August currently
<sivang> oops
<sivang> Keybuk: congrats!
<doko> fabbione: what about the powerpc64 kernel?
<jdub> Kamion: congrats :-)
<daniels> Kamion: congrats, again (so I don't feel left out)
* Kamion giggles at sivang, I got it :)
<seb128> congrats :)
<sivang> erghh irssi completions
<ogra> Kamion: congrats !
<fabbione> doko: that's low priority
<mvo_> congrats!
<fabbione> Kamion: i will tell you how it goes after february... you will have time to reconsider :P
<smurfix> Kamion: conga rats!  ;-)
<sivang> smurfix: hehe
<jdub> Kamion: so you won't be needing any high priority bendy goals :)
<daniels> jdub: bendy totally needs a GUI installer, I think ;)
* mvo_ chuckles
<elmo> kamions hasn't done the graphical installer yet?????
* Mithrandir beats elmo with a drainpipe :)
<elmo> \o/
<mdz> Kamion: how is the hardware detection stuff going?
<fabbione> elmo: *cough*sparc*cough*
<jdub> \u/ <- after drainpipe
* sivang is puzzled about the laugs. who is bendy? :)
<Kamion> (actually, fwiw: we could call the netcfg rf-kill-switch thing a bug, since it is, I don't know why Mark brought it up during a feature goals meeting)
<lamont_r> bendy is after hoary
<jdub> sivang: bendy is the release after hoary
<mdz> Kamion: daniels has his name down for that one, so please feel free to invite him to own up to it :-)
<lamont_r> bendy badger
* jdub is writing mail about that now
<elmo> bendy is the object lesson on "why trolling sabdfl is bad, mmkay?"
<mdz> jdub: please don't send the mail yet; I need time to make my case for a better name
* elmo looks pointedly at keybuk
<sivang> jdub: wasn't it grumpy? or was it too grumpy for a name? :)
<Kamion> mdz: displaying network interface names correctly is the only missing piece I know of
* mdz scowls at Keybuk
<jdub> mdz: better than bendy?
<mdz> jdub: yes
<Kamion> I worked around the framebuffer problem today, which was release-critical
<lamont_r> sivang: grumy was considered too, well, grumpy
<jdub> sivang: three dispositive names in a row... grumpy is going to be used for something else.
<Keybuk> jdub: that shouldn't be too hard
<mdz> Kamion: did you get my mail with the macio hotplug stuff?
<jdub> mdz: you're being serious?
<Kamion> mdz: yes, haven't had time to do anything serious with it yet :-/
<mdz> jdub: you mean you don't think it's the worst one yet?
<Kamion> (but will do)
<mdz> Kamion: just wondering whether you think it's something we should shoot for for hoary
<daniels> mdz: christ, how'd my name get there?
<daniels> mdz: (gui installer)
<jdub> mdz: ok, deferred, let's chat about it in #u-d after the meeting
<mdz> daniels: not gui installer; unified hardware detection
<mdz> daniels: and to answer your question, because of the X component
<Kamion> mdz: I don't think the mac-io hotplug stuff is urgent, personally, the /etc/modules workaround is adequate
<Kamion> and the existing code is easy to deal with
<fabbione> daniels: because you own X and it is related to GUY?
<mdz> daniels: we'll need your help to get the X autodetection doing the right stuff on the live CD, I assume
<amu> mdz: ack
<mdz> Kamion: ok.  if you get an itch to try it out, please send feedback to the guy who sent it to me; he's very interested in whether it works out
<fabbione> mdz: Mark explicitly requested that...
<mdz> fabbione: requested what?
<daniels> mdz: oh, UHD; sorry, ECONTEXT
<mdz> one short item, since the live CD came up
<fabbione> mdz: the sync between X install autodetection and liveCD
<mdz> we're going to be developing some significant bits of infrastructure for the live CD
<mdz> enough that it needs a name
<Kamion> live-* not enough?
<mdz> like, a brand name
<mdz> a name for the project
<Keybuk> Ubuntu LIVE!
<mdz> it should not be specific to Ubuntu
<lamont_r> frankenbuntu?
<ogra> lol
<sivang> liveshow? 
<fabbione> Ubuntu-resurrected?
<Kamion> lively
<lamont_r> (it's alive....)
<sivang> :)
<sivang> or LiveShow
<daniels> yeah, X install detection and live CD sync is kind of tricky
<mdz> lively is cute
<smurfix> lively lizard?
<jdub> Lively Leprechaun
* Kamion steals jdub's pot of gold.
<mdz> ok, thanks for the suggestions
<daniels> but I have a design for it and will move forward after I've fixed my most pressing bugs (xorg module loader plus debian sync, l-r-m 2.6.10, preparing for new fglrx)
<mdz> moving ahead with feature goals
<mdz> pitti: what's the status of language packs?
<Keybuk> Kamion: mind out, floor's a bit slippy
<pitti> mdz: carlos will implement time-based po downloads (in a ZIP stream) soon
<pitti> mdz: I agreed with him on an interface today
<pitti> mdz: I still need to setup the automatic deb building
<mdz> pitti: so the glibc changes are in (yes?), the striptranslations tool is written(?)
<pitti> mdz: and I need to complete the metapackages (but that's relatively easy)
<pitti> mdz: yes and yes
<pitti> mdz: pkgstriptranslations
<pitti> mdz: I also updated debhelper to use it if it's present
<mdz> pitti: we need to tie the strip process into the autobuilders, and create a tool to build packages from the stripped translations
<pitti> mdz: it just needs to be enabled in /etc/pkgstriptranslations.conf
<mdz> pitti: oh, so we should be ready to start stripping translations during the build?
<pitti> mdz: yes
<mdz> pitti: please work with lamont to get that going ASAP
<pitti> mdz: everything is in place
<lamont_r> cool.. pitti I just need instructions
<pitti> mdz: I did not yet ask for that because we don't yet have lang pack debs
* fabbione does too
<mdz> lamont: will need one additional package installed in the chroots, and then a mechanism to copy the files off somewhere after the build is complete
<pitti> lamont_r: just enable pkgstriptranslations in the conffile
<mdz> pitti: we should start collecting translations now, so that we have something to make debs from
<pitti> lamont_r: and pkgstriptranslations (the deb) must be included into the buidd chroots
<lamont_r> installed and configured.
<mdz> lamont_r, pitti: we can discuss the details after the meeting, but please get it going soon
<pitti> mdz: no, we don't need to copy the mo files
<mdz> pitti: we don't?
<pitti> mdz: no, carlos said that the mo files are useless
<lamont_r> what happens to the stripped transalations?
<pitti> mdz: that's why I just delete them
<fabbione> >/dev/null ?
<pitti> mdz: carlos said that rosetta needs the original po files
<mdz> pitti: if we throw them away, then we can't create language packs until every package is in Rosetta
<pitti> mdz: so rosetta needs to extract them from the source package
<mdz> and there are only, what, about 10 packages in rosetta so far?
<lamont_r> pitti: I'll get with you after the meeting
<pitti> mdz: AFAIUI they can do it automatically now
<mdz> yes, let's take that discussion elsewhere
<pitti> mdz: but I have to ask carlos again
<pitti> yes
<pitti> mdz: I will care for that in the next days
<mdz> doko: python-minimal seems to be in fairly good shape
<mdz> doko: what remains to be done before we make it Essential: yes?
<doko> tighten the dependency, should be all.
<mdz> does anyone else have outstanding concerns about python-minimal?
<mdz> we should probably have some sort of test suite
<Kamion> seems to debootstrap properly now
#ubuntu-meeting 2005-01-16
<mdz> since we've sliced up the standard library in some interesting ways
<mdz> we should have some way to confirm that the remaining modules actually work
<doko> there is one included, to check for the dependency stuff, which is run after the build.
<mdz> (without full python installed)
<lamont_r> Kamion: and it's in hoary{,.buildd}?
<mdz> doko: what does it do?  just import the modules?
<mdz> I was thinking about some simple unit tests
<Mithrandir> doesn't python have unit tests?
<mdz> Mithrandir: yes
<doko> import the modules and check that all dependencies are fulfilled.
<mdz> doko: would it be feasible to adapt the existing unit tests for this purpose?
<mdz> so that they use /usr/bin/python and /usr/lib/pythonX.Y rather than the ones in the build tree?
<doko> ok, I'll look to explicitely check the modules in -minimal and let the build fail on regressions.
<Kamion> lamont_r: not .buildd
<mdz> ok
<Kamion> lamont_r: that's just waiting for your ack though
<lamont_r> please
<Kamion> ok
<lamont_r> otherwise the buildd installs it and then can't uninstall it afterwards.
<mdz> amu: we need to sync up on live CD stuff; I'm going to start doing active development on it very soon
<doko> mdz: and to package the these tests in an own package?
<lamont_r> Essential: yes --> in .buildd
<mdz> doko: I don't think it's necessary
<amu> mdz: nice, soon means? 
<mdz> doko: if you can find a way to run the tests during the build, with an interpreter that can only access the -minimal modules, that would be fine
<lamont_r> mdz: would be nice to have the build process as it currently sits running somewhere, if it's ready, otherwise just available for the rest of us to play too....
<mdz> amu: what time will you go to sleep tonight? ;-)
<doko> ok, I'll look at that.
<amu> mdz: *g* 
<Kamion> lamont_r: ah, never thought of that. uploaded.
<lamont_r> thanks
<mdz> lamont_r: in order to get the real process going, we need to finish the debian-installer mods
<Kamion> amu has sent me some diffs, I looked at them today
<mdz> lamont_r: the other piece is to arrange for automated builds of the desktop live image
<mdz> lamont_r: I'd be thrilled if you would take responsibility for that piece
<lamont_r> mdz: OK.  what I guess I was saying is that I would like to play/fix it as well, although my schedule for the week is pretty busy now...
<Kamion> they don't seem very ready to integrate though; lots of temporary bits, and cdrom-live seems to be a literal copy of cdrom or close to it
<amu> Kamion: guess now with ubuntu13 they  are totally outdated :) 
* lamont_r will own the automated piece - need to get the unautomated piece to get that set up though.
<Kamion> amu: try 20041227ubuntu1 ;)
<mdz> lamont_r: basically, we need to do an automated nightly debootstrap + install desktop task, make a filesystem out of it, and compress it with the cloop utils
<Kamion> but no, not particularly, they just won't really be useful until you've uploaded the extra udebs that need to go in your initrd
<fabbione> that's quite simple...
<mdz> lamont_r: that should be doable with no dependencies on anything that amu or I are doing
<lamont_r> mdz: and then upload that .img?
<amu> Kamion: hehe, searched yesterday where ex. contychooset are :) lost in space 
<elmo> is this the image that doesn't rsync?
<amu> set/ser 
<lamont_r> elmo: yeppers
<mdz> elmo: yes
<mdz> so you guys need to decide where to put that
<mdz> so there will be one piece built by d-i and processed in the usual way
<lamont_r> mdz: what if we skipped the cloop utils compression, and did that at buld time.
<elmo> as long as it's not releases.u.c, I don't suppose I care
<mdz> and a second piece that is the output of lamont's process
<lamont_r> then it could rsync better
<mdz> the live CD build process will take as input the d-i bit, and lamont's bit, and put them together into an .iso
<Kamion> mdz: just to note, I feel relatively strongly that monolithic-live or similar shouldn't be the production thing
<mdz> Kamion: meaning what, specifically?
<Kamion> I wasn't sure from what you guys were doing whether you were assuming you'd be using monolithic-live
<Kamion> the d-i initrd that includes all your udebs
<Kamion> rather than just enough to decide what to do and retrieve more udebs
<mdz> Kamion: it doesn't much matter to me whether it's monolithic or not, but if there are issues with how we carve up the configs/ stuff, we need to know that now
<mdz> i.e., whether we have a separate -live config, and at what point in the tree
<Kamion> the cdrom-live as I saw in amu's diff is fine IMO
<mdz> ok, great
<Kamion> it just needs some content distinct from cdrom :)
<mdz> ok
<mdz> automated testing
<mdz> we agreed on the scope for that in Mataro, but the notes don't seem to be up yet
<elmo> <insanely wishful>has the INEEDROOTKTHXBYE misfeature been fixed yet?</>
<elmo> [for live builds] 
<Kamion> not in debootstrap, to my knowledge ...
<lamont_r> elmo: will need debootstrap...
<lamont_r> but can at least run in a chroot.
<lamont_r> or xen, or whatever...
<mdz> elmo: the CD building part and the d-i building part are both fine in that respect
<mdz> elmo: lamont's bit which installs desktop will be tough to do without root
<Mithrandir> fakechroot might be worth a shot?
* lamont_r makes a note to try fakeroot debootstrap for giggles
<amu> elmo: no more such a big problem, we're knoppix free now
<mdz> pitti: are you comfortable with the scope and deadlines for automated testing?
<fabbione> lamont_r: it doesn't work.. i tried that...
<lamont_r> fabbione: ok
<pitti> mdz: I thought we should only do some example packages for Hoary?
<mdz> pitti: we agreed to do automated install/remove for every package
<pitti> mdz: find an appropriate framework and do a handful of representative examples?
<Mithrandir> lamont_r: fake_ch_root.
<mdz> pitti: the per-package tests are a nice-to-have for hoary, but not required
<pitti> mdz: yes, but that wasn't assigned to me?
<mdz> pitti: was that the bit that Kamion accepted?
<pitti> mdz: not sure
<pitti> yes, it was
<pitti> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/AutomatedTesting, last paragraph
<mdz> ah
<pitti> but Kamion probably needs some support for that...
<pitti> mdz: I just never thought about this so far
<mdz> Kamion: given that featurefreeze doesn't restrict automated testing development, do you think you want to take that on after all?
<mdz> Kamion: let me know when you return
<mdz> smurfix: are you still interested in the keyboard layout selector?
<smurfix> sure
<smurfix> Did you look at the stuff I sent you?
<mdz> smurfix: I'm concerned about the feature freeze deadline vs. your hand injury; do you think you will be able to meet the schedule?
<mdz> smurfix: only very briefly; I've been on holiday
<smurfix> My hand's mostly working right again
<mdz> oh, good to hear
<mdz> smurfix: if it is achievable for you, I am more than happy to make a deal
<smurfix> They took off the iron early.
<smurfix> I think so
<mdz> let's discuss details after the meeting or via email
<Kamion> mdz: I may be able to help but I'd prefer not to lead it
<smurfix> mdz: , it's kindos late
<mdz> thom: how do you feel about automated testing?
<smurfix> s/,/email,
<mdz> smurfix: ok
<mdz> elmo: also, what's your assessment as far as getting xen or whatever set up for this?
<elmo> ah,m
<mdz> elmo: if you don't think it can be done, we can use a chroot on a dedicated machine and get about 95% of the way
<thom> mdz: interested. 
<elmo> mdz: what's the deadline for xen?
<elmo> and has anyone looked at it at all yet? 
<mdz> elmo: in order to get reasonable benefits from automated testing, it should be up and running as soon after feature freeze as possible
<Keybuk> xen depends on doogie
<Keybuk> this scares me :p
<mdz> Keybuk: like hell it does
<elmo> keybuk?!
<Keybuk> isn't that his current shiny toy?
<lamont_r> Keybuk: he's not upstream
<elmo> Keybuk: he likes to drool on it; that hardly makes it dependent on him
<mdz> I think he's moved on
<Keybuk> ahh, could be, has been a few weeks
<elmo> err, public meeting. must. control. cyclone.
<fabbione> lol
<elmo> mdz: err, feature freeze is when?  sorry, lost track, the dates keep being changed or talk about changing
<jdub> elmo: cyclones fine, just keep the waves to yourself.
<mdz> thom: I'm happy for you to own that piece of it (installation/removal testing), and work with pitti on the package-specific test portion
<mdz> elmo: 2005-02-09, I think
<jdub> yes
<elmo> oh, yeah, I can do Xen by then
<fabbione> that's soo close to my wedding...
<Keybuk> jdub: I don't know why you're worried about going to jail over MP3 players, you're clearly going to hell :p
<thom> Keybuk: weve known that for a long time
<thom> mdz: ack.
<mdz> fabbione: most of your feature work is done
<mdz> thom: ok, thanks
<fabbione> mdz: i am more worried of last minute mess
<jdub> thom: the bridal party has a CHILDREN'S TABLE. beware.
<mdz> fabbione: we save that for the release
<mdz> jdub: what's the latest on the gdm/panel bounties?
<fabbione> mdz: ok :-) thanks ;)
<jdub> mdz: see way above for panel, part of gdm is done, but mark extended it somewhat at mataro :)
<mdz> jdub: please update the wiki with status info
<jdub> mdz: ok
<mdz> thom: netapplet?
<jdub> hrm, didn't we want resolvconf?
<thom> artwork done, know how to do the appletification, was planning to do it tomorrow am
<jdub> thom: i have menu suggestions to send too
<mdz> thom, jdub: at what point shall we add it to desktop?
<mdz> jdub: context for resolvconf?
<sivang> has the meeting ajorned?
<mdz> sivang: not hardly
<jdub> thom: also, davyd knows how to do applet replacement foo
<thom> jdub: lay on, macduff
<sivang> mdz: k
<thom> jdub: AHR!
<jdub> thom: (are we going to replace the wifi applet?)
<mdz> jdub: any word on icons?
<jdub> thom: i'm a little bit uncomfortable with that, because it's not happening upstream
<jdub> mdz: icons way up too
<jdub> mdz: context for resolvconf is realising it's not installed on my laptop
<thom> jdub: i think it makes a lot of sense to, but it needs discussion - having two wifi strength indicators is SUCKADELIC
<mdz> jdub: icons are on Mark's high priority list; we need to see something relatively soon if it's going to happen
<mdz> I don't think this can wait until preview timeframe at all
<mdz> it already fell through for Warty
<jdub> thom: mmm, and if we replace the wifi applet's guid, it jsut means taht logging in on other systems will give you the old applet
<jdub> mdz: not wait until, but it still be updated through then
<jdub> can still
<mdz> jdub: sure, so long as it's well underway
<jdub> yeah
<jdub> so hammering that out this and next week
<mdz> i.e., we have the guy, and have known good stuff in hand
<mdz> thanks
<mdz> we still have this handwavy goal of making video playback better
<thom> jdub: um. can we talk more thoroughly about this with davyd, see if he has smart ideas about how we do it? (ie, not right now)
<Keybuk> all gstreamer plugins in main? *duck* :p
<seb128> ffmpeg in main ! 
<fabbione> let's put mplayer with codecs in main...
* seb128 hides
<jdub> it was less handwavy when we decided it should be "totem should be able to handle flumotion streams, vorbis and theora, etc."
<mdz> the two concrete things there were the new gstreamer bits from upstream, and getting gst-ffmpeg into multiverse
<jdub> thom: yeah, he does
<mdz> jdub: totem can already play those, it just doesn't do it as well as we'd like
<jdub> mdz: the goal was to do them well
<mdz> I thought someone stepped forward to make gst-ffmpeg happen during Mataro
<jdub> mdz: ffmpeg was just an additional bonus
<jdub> yes, it should be in debian soon
<seb128> I'm working with the debian maintainer to get it uploaded
<jdub> elmo: ...? :)
<seb128> should happen RSN
<jdub> rock
<mdz> ok, great
<mdz> jdub: I constantly forget what this SVG stuff is about
<mdz> jdub: but you and Mark have a dialog about it, right?
<jdub> mdz: very random handwavy stuff. "make things prettier", basically. hardly anything to do with svg.
<elmo> oh, crap!
<jdub> mdz: yeah
<mdz> jdub: any concrete goals?
<jdub> not really
<mdz> sweet
<jdub> but it's related to the gdm stuff
<jdub> so i can pick off a few tasty nibbles and satisfy it
<Mithrandir> it was the gdm-not-stretch-and-fuck-up-the-login-screen thingy, wasn't it?
<mdz> usplash, sladen and I are working that out
<thom> we need to seed readahead, btw
<jdub> Mithrandir: no, that's a gdm goal ;)
<mdz> thom: is that all we need to do?
<mdz> thom: how does it decide what to read ahead?
<thom> at the moment, the list is generated manually and shipped in the package
<Kamion> elmo: hmm?
<fabbione> thom: btw... i have a patch to improve kernel read-ahead...
<thom> fabbione: oh?
<elmo> Kamion: just forgot to do some new processing I said I would in mataro
<fabbione> thom: if you want to get some stats, i can push you the same kernel with the patch and see if it helps
<thom> mdz: automatic updates need a lot more thought at this point
<mdz> thom: was it a conscious decision to have it ahead of mountnfs.sh in the boot sequence?  it would seem to disable itself for /usr-on-NFS
<fabbione> thom: kernel does some read_ahead on its own...
<mdz> thom: yeah, don't worry about automatic updates for hoary, certainly
<Keybuk> mdz: how much work does usplash need to get a beta uploaded?
<smurfix> elmo: Pity, I was going to remind you tomorrow. ;-) (Please also do python2.4-docutils so that it may migrate to Ubuntu.)
<jdub> we should get usplash in quickly
<thom> mdz: readahead doesn't work with NFS, and hotplug is ahead of it, so it seemed like a pretty harmless win...
<mdz> Keybuk: not too much, I don't think; we're going with a fairly conservative goal for hoary.  sladen will have specifics
<mdz> thom: ok
<mdz> any objections to seeding readahead?
<mdz> (desktop, presumably)
<jdub> none
<thom> desktop, definitely
<Mithrandir> go ahead.
<mdz> thom: go for it
<thom> ok, added to my list
<mdz> kamion already updated us on questions-before-reboot work
<Keybuk> mdz: it'd be nice to see some shiny packaged
<jdub> that will score a few score more testers ;)
<mdz> Kamion: DVD images?
<Kamion> mdz: in slightly more detail, the timezone question is (just about) done, password and apt-setup stuff still to go
<Kamion> no progress on those since Mataro
<lamont_r> mdz: adding what features to make them need a dvd?
<mdz> lamont_r: DVD images = producing DVD
<mdz> DVD-sized images with supported on them
<mdz> Kamion: being server-side, that one has some flexibility as far as the feature freeze as well, but I very much want to see it happen for hoary
<mdz> Kamion: is this something that could be handed off to lamont, perhaps?
<Kamion> yeah, I know, I have no intention of deferring forever
<Kamion> mmm, bit tricky at the moment, will see
<mdz> ok, follow up with him if it makes sense to divide it somehow
<mdz> I don't see a need to go over all of the targets of opportunity; if there's anything that folks want to talk about from that section, please raise it
<jdub> we should have a webmail thingy in main
<mdz> I'd like to hear from someone on the doc team about the documentation goals
<jdub> *cough* sorry
<lamont_r> laptopsuspend?
<mjg59> mdz: Is it worth bringing up the suspend/resume thing briefly?
<Kamion> oh, there are still pieces of apt authentication to do
<mdz> mjg59: sure
<mjg59> mdz: Now? :)
<mdz> mjg59: if you'd prefer to summarize on the list later, that's fine, but here and now is also fine
<mvo_> Kamion: what exactly? can I help?
<mdz> we're nearing the 2 hour mark, and experience shows that we fade fast :-)
<Kamion> cdimage signing and verification
<Kamion> I've just sent the cdimage public key to the keyservers
<mjg59> Concentrating on x86:
<mjg59> Suspend to disk should work just about everywhere.
<johnlevin> is there anyone (else) from the doc team here?
<mjg59> So that's a win.
<sivang> johnlevin: I am 
* Keybuk starts weeping during this bit :p  (not to mention giving the X40 cabal a target)
<mdz> mjg59: what shall we do about default event stuff for hoary?
<mdz> now that this stuff works and all, it would be great to actually have some interface to it :-)
<lamont_r> mjg59: and resume? :-)
<mjg59> Suspend to RAM is going to work on an unknown number of machines - based on personal experience I'd tend towards ~80%, but it's possible the machines I've tested have been better quality than average
<johnlevin> sivang: what do you knwo of the doc goals for hoary?
<sivang> mjg59: we should try see why it doesn't work on the inspiron 8200 with nVidia. :-)
<mjg59> sivang: If you're using nvidia's drivers, you have no chance
<mjg59> Oh, yeah. StR with binary X drivers = not happening
<daniels> the nvidia binary driver is not acpi-aware
<daniels> or any pm-aware, iirc
<lamont_r> daniels: is that all that's needed?
<mdz> mjg59, jdub, seb128: is it possible to get a 'hibernate' thing into the menu, logout dialog or someplace appropriatae like that?
<mjg59> Making suspend to disk available by default is reasonable
<sivang> johnlevin: hmm, mostly there is now a quick guide (refcard) , the big handbook, man pages reworking, Install manual love and gnome docs love.
<sivang> mdz: that would be cool.
<mjg59> I'd lean towards having StR there, but disabled by default
<seb128> mdz: yes, that's trivial to do, just give me the command to run
<mjg59> The real issue is that we need a configuration layer
<mdz> seb128: great, and it will be run as root?
<sivang> mjg59: noted. Will test with the free driver in in 30 miins.
<mjg59> All the code is in shell, so it's easy enough to just source from a config file
<seb128> mdz: probably like the reboot/halt stuff, with gdmflexiserver
<mdz> seb128: great
<elmo> can we pretty please apply the apple patch before release?
<mjg59> Ah, good point. Yeah, we should apply the PPC suspend to disk patch (along with the G4 iBook suspend to RAM stuff)
<mjg59> I have no access to PPC hardware, so someone else is going to have to test this stuff
<Keybuk> going through a Bugzilla ACPI patch harvest would be quite handy
<elmo> ppc supsed to disk?
<mjg59> elmo: Yeah
<elmo> the suspend to ram patch isn't just for ibooks, it's for any G4 mac laptops
<mdz> mjg59: can you send seb128 what he needs in order to add a hibernate action?
<elmo> and I think it clashes with suspend to disk patches
<Kamion> ibooks and albooks, not sure about tibooks
<elmo> and I test it every day :)
<mdz> mjg59: or is it just echo disk > /sys/power/state ?
<mjg59> elmo: Ah, rock
<Kamion> it's working great for me too
<mjg59> mdz: No, it needs to run a script
<sivang> mjg59: hibernate options doesn't need a partiton to hibernate to prior to actually trying that?
<Keybuk> doesn't acpi-support need to go into the archive first?
<mjg59> sivang: It just needs swap
<mdz> sivang: it uses swap
* lamont_r wants to get suspend-to-anything working
<mjg59> Oh, yes
<mdz> mjg59: oh, what about getting resume= automagically set up?
<mjg59> The installer needs to add resume= to the default kernel paramaters
<sivang> mjg59: ok, cool, does this automagically? (i.e. detect swap partition)
<fabbione> elmo: i doubt we will apply it
<mjg59> sivang: No, it needs a kernel paramater
<fabbione> elmo: it is big and buggy.. according to benh there is at least one known regression
<mdz> mjg59: what happens if there are multiple swap partitions?
<mjg59> Uh, eter
<sivang> mjg59: ok, I'll talk to you after the meeting.
<elmo> fabbione: uh, what regression?
<mjg59> mdz: It'll use whichever one resume= points to
<mdz> mjg59: it seems more sensible to have initrd-tools save the necessary info in the initrd
<Keybuk> suspend-to-disk would work for me if X.org wouldn't crap itself and hang the machine
<fabbione> elmo: ati hangs on resume in some cases
<elmo> it's not that buggy dude, I've been using it since version #1 and never had a crash
<mdz> mjg59: resume= seems like a very awkward way to do it
<elmo> fabbione: dude, how can that possibly be a regression?  it didn't resume AT ALL before
<mjg59> mdz: Hrm. It /could/ be done that way.
<fabbione> elmo: benh consider it a regression because it touches the ati driver for all arches...
<mjg59> Need some rewriting. Open a bug on it and we'll discuss it?
<mdz> mjg59: does the kernel API already support telling it where to resume from (directly, rather than resume=?)
<elmo> meh, conditionally apply it then :P
<mdz> mjg59: ok, will do
<amu> mdz: we forget crypto? 
<mjg59> mdz: Yeah, with my patch in there
<elmo> that patch is a SERIOUS usability thing for mac laptops
<fabbione> elmo: i tought about it.. yes... that means a lot of extra work to maintain ppc kernels....
<elmo> that one patch, and you have a suspendable laptop, no fucking around with ACPI, VBE, vm86 or any of that crap, it just works.  
<mjg59> How about we open separate bugs for the right way of dealing with resume=, user configuration, gdm integration and Mac support?
<mdz> amu: there are a lot of targets of opportunity, and we are out of time
<mdz> amu: if there is something specific you'd like to talk about, please raise it now
<fabbione> but i guess that there is no otherway around since i will have to do it for hppa too
<mdz> otherwise, I'd like to close the meeting soon
<mdz> does everyone know what their deliverables are from this meeting?
<lamont_r> mdz: if not, I'll need to take about a 10 minute break...
<amu> mdz: well there was a voice it would be nice if we can crypt our homedir's ... 
<lamont_r> mdz: I don't think that's a valid question...
<elmo> who's using the xen stuff I'm doing?  thom &| lamont ?
<lamont_r> since we _think_ we know them...
<ogra> heh
<mdz> elmo: thom, pitti, lamont
<pitti> here
<elmo> k
<fabbione> elmo: is xen somekind of kernel related module?
<mdz> lamont_r: that was a subtle way of saying "you're supposed to write these things down when you agree to do them" :-P
<pitti> mdz: I'm not using xen, if you meant that
<mdz> pitti: for automated testing
<lamont_r> mdz: right.
<pitti> ah, that one
<elmo> fabbione: it's like uml and vmware, but on crack.  good crack
<daniels> um, so with unified x configuration
<elmo> it needs some kernel patches, because atm, it's maintained as a sepearate architecture
<mdz> fabbione: it is a kernel arch
<fabbione> elmo: how much confidence do you have on it?
<daniels> I'll get to that one next week
<elmo> http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/Research/SRG/netos/xen/
<mdz> fabbione: I don't think we need to merge it into the standard kernel for hoary
<elmo> fabbione: none - I've not used it before
<fabbione> mdz: ssshhuuuuusss!
<elmo> fabbione: we decided to use it in mataro, and I only had my ppc laptop, which it doesn't support
<mdz> daniels: that's fine; with luck, we'll be ready for it then
<fabbione> i was trying to give hte kernel to elmo!
<fabbione> :P
<elmo> FWIW, I agree with mdz, it doesn't need merged
<daniels> mdz: sweet
<fabbione> elmo: ok...
<mdz> elmo likes to build his own kernels anyway
<elmo> fabbione: haha, like that'll ever work
<elmo> mdz: it's my constituional right, damn you
<elmo> the elmo amendment
<fabbione> elmo: you may never know....
<Keybuk> elmo doesn't even use hotplug or udev
<fabbione> perhaps you love me so much that you will take care of the kernel while i will be in honeymoon...
<thom> i thought he did now
<lamont_r> anything else before I translocate?
<mdz> so at this point, everyone should know what their feature goal assignments are
<daniels> critical pieces of infrastructure are not maintained via the 'you touched it last' mechanism
<mdz> almost all of them have a deadline of FeatureFreeze
<mdz> which is 2005-02-09
<mdz> so feature work is the top priority during that time
<pitti> mdz: I have one extra point, if you don't kill me
<mdz> things on the primary goal list are "must haves"
<mdz> so if you encounter any problems which place them in jeopardy, notify me immediately
<mdz> likewise for secondary goals, which are not "must haves", but very important
<mdz> pitti: go ahead
<pitti> mdz: back in warty time we discussed about the drive icons on the desktop/panel; this is still not sorted out AFAIK
<jdub> the applet is done
<pitti> jamesh's driveapplet works somewhat, but is still buggy
<jdub> it's not on the panel by default though
<seb128> we have a place menu now and the drive applet
<mdz> I thought the long-term plan was to put the drives into the menu?
<seb128> -> places
<mdz> right
<Keybuk> mdz: you can't unmount from the menu
<mdz> ah
<mdz> so they should both go into the menu, and have icons?
<mdz> is driveapplet something we should seed?
<pitti> mdz: right now the drive applet allows you to open a nautilus window and to unmount
<jdub> mdz: it's in gnome-applets
<mdz> jdub: what's it called in the touchy-feely add to panel menu?
<jdub> disk mounter
<jdub> (which is no longer a very good name for it)
<pitti> it's still quite ugly
<pitti> but it kinda works at least
<mdz> it's not even on the radar as far as hoary feature goals
<pitti> the icons are bad and you cannot unmount a whole drive (only single partitions)
<mdz> is it going to make it?
<jdub> it's going to be in hoary
<jdub> but i don't think we should worry about having it on by default
<mdz> sure, but if it's to be the solution to the "unmounting things in the desktop is painful" problem, it needs ot be there by default
<mdz> I guess we can decide on that in the next few weeks
<jdub> we have desktop icons too atm
<mdz> jdub: sometimes :-)
<mdz> (#4597)
<mdz> anyway, I think we're finished here
<fabbione> yeah
<jdub> anyone have suggestions for webmail stuff we could ship?
<mdz> no, it all sucks
<Mithrandir> squirrel WFM
<Keybuk> jdub: none that don't involve PHP, and I really suggest we don't go that route
<mdz> squirrelmail is the lesser evil
<fabbione> pitti: should we take a look at the debstriptranslationtingy?
<Mithrandir> of course it sucks, but webmail does suck.
* pitti likes squirrelmail
<pitti> fabbione: after the meeting?
<mdz> pitti: do you like fixing all its XSS bugs? ;-)
<fabbione> pitti: i can start using it on the sparc buildd right now...
<jdub> we basically can't ship a php one anyway ;)
* sivang seconds Keybuk 
<mdz> jdub: squirrel doesn't use php4-imap
<fabbione> pitti: or later today...
<pitti> mdz: not really :-/
<jdub> mdz: oh?
<mdz> jdub: no, it NIH-es it
<jdub> it used to
<jdub> wow, that's brilliant
* lamont_r translocates.  back in 10-15 minutes
<mdz> jdub: I'd rather squirrelmail's PHP implementation than UW's C implementation, to be honest :-)
* fabbione needs badly a smoke.. back in 10
<mdz> but anyway, we can have the webmail discussion elsewhere
<mdz> thanks to everyone who participated or lurked
<mdz> meeting adjourned
<pitti> thanks mdz
<fabbione> thanks mdz
<daniels> cheers
<mvo_> thanks 
* pitti falls asleep
<ogra> thanks
<sivang> night pitti !
<sivang> thanks
<thom> it's a really "interesting" implementation in php FWICR
<amu> cheers
<Keybuk> thom: is it spethial?
<seb128> 'night
<pitti> night sivang 
<ogra> pitti: i'll bugf you tomorrow...sleep well
<pitti> night all
<thom> Keybuk: with extra chestbanging
<pitti> ogra: I will stay awake for some minutes, though
<ogra> pitti: lets do it tomorrow after i checked out all this stuff....
<pitti> ogra: yes
<pitti> mdz: I thought again about the po extraction
<pitti> mdz: although the rosetta guys don't want mo files, we still could use them to build our translation debs
<pitti> mdz: the question is whether we want that or we should rather wait on importing all packages to rosetta
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:smurfix] : Tuesday 11 January 2005: Community Council meeting -- https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/CommunityCouncilAgenda.  Tuesday 18 January 2005: Technical Board -- http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/TechnicalBoardAgenda.
<diego> Did I miss the meeting?
<azeem> yes
<ogra> yup
<diego> aww, are these logged anywhere? I'm not a developer or anything but I'm interested in reading
<sladen> D'oh.  /me reads the scroll retrospectively
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-01-09
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:robitaille] :  Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ |  5 Jan 20:00 UTC: Dapper Development Status | 10 Jan 15:00 UTC: Community Council | 11 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 17 Jan 20:00 UTC: Technical Board
<highvoltage> edubuntu meeting today?
<dholbach> in 13,5h?
<highvoltage> dholbach: there is? normally it's at 12:00 GMT on wednesdays.
<highvoltage> i'll ask on #edubuntu to make sure :)
<dholbach> oh, my feed is wrong then
<dholbach> http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event
<Simira> evening, sladen 
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-01-10
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:mdz] :  Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ |  5 Jan 02:00 UTC: Dapper Development Status | 10 Jan 15:00 UTC: Community Council | 11 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 17 Jan 20:00 UTC: Technical Board
* mdz peers at Kamion
<Kamion> irssi is going insane on me; it has stopped autocreating new windows on /join
<mdz> fabbione: ping
<mdz> mvo: ping
<Kamion> I was trying not to get channels interleaved over each other, 1995-stylee
<mdz> doko: ping
<mdz> Riddell: ping
<mvo> hello mdz
<ogra_ibook> :)
<Mithrandir> Kamion: is autocreate_windows on?
<jbailey> mdz: ping
<jbailey> (preemptive)
<jbailey> =)
<mdz> iwj: ping
<Mithrandir> mdz: pong.
<Mithrandir> (preemptive)
<mdz> dholbach: ping
<dholbach> mdz: pong
<Kyral> oh...I hope you guys don't mind me sitting in on the Meeting
<doko> pong
<HiddenWolf> Kyral, public meeting. :)
<mdz> it's public, but the agenda is usually very tight so please don't interrupt
<Kyral> I won't
<ogra_ibook> Kyral, sure we do, thats why we meet in such a secret place ;)
<mdz> we seem to still be missing a few people
<Kyral> I'll just idle :D
<fabbione> mdz: pong
<HiddenWolf> specially since all the european-based devels want to go to bed fast. :)
<mdz> fabbione: have you seen BenC?
<Riddell> hi all
<Mithrandir> mdz: connection reset by peer ~20 minutes ago, apparently.
<fabbione> mdz: yes he is online.. i was speaking to him 10 minutes ago, but he is having net problems
<fabbione> there...
<BenC> shoot my connection, please
<mdz> missing iwj, dholbach and daniels I think
<seb128> dholbach is around
<Mithrandir> mdz: 02:59 < dholbach> mdz: pong
<dholbach> mdz: pong :)
<Mithrandir> mdz: he ponged about two seconds after you pinged
<mdz> indeed
<Mithrandir> also, iwj's irc client is here, at least.
<iwj> Yes, I'm here.
* fabbione suggests to let BenC go first since his network sucks and sucks to be him
<mdz> daniels SMSed with connectivity problems
<mdz> infinity and janew are on leave
<mdz> so let's get started
<mdz> BenC: shoot
<BenC> testing-server-hardware: NOT STARTED
<BenC> preventing-hardware-support-regressions: Automated build working. Designed as a push trigger system (slightly contrary to original design spec). Hopefully ronne will be stable enough to start using as a build host.
<BenC> ubuntu-server-kernel: STALLED: amd64 and i386 are done. I'm contemplating on whether doing other architectures is even wanted right now.
<BenC> milestone: 2.6.15 is final and in dapper
<mdz> BenC: by testing-server-hardware, do you mean the certification spec by that name, or the actual community testing program which was intended?
<BenC> spec
<mdz> ok, please swap them then
<BenC> it's assigned to me, but really, most of the work is on malcom to get the ball rolling
<mdz> exactly
<BenC> ok
<mdz> meanwhile, the community testing program (which is what that spec should have become) should be able to be started immediately
<BenC> oh, and ubuntu-server-kernel still needs to be approved
<mdz> who's the approver?
<jbailey> mdz: Please do me last, my machine just puked, need a couple minutes to get reconnected.
<BenC> mdz: fabio :)
<BenC> fabbione: approve me damnit
<fabbione> BenC: ok, will do 
<mdz> a bit late now that it's been implemented; hope it's OK ;-)
<fabbione> BenC: i didn't notice it was ready for approval
<BenC> thanks
<fabbione> mdz: well yeah :)
<Kamion> excuse me, I just typed an unwise thing into my IRC client
<BenC> hehe
<mdz> BenC: regarding powerpc, I'm not fussed either way
<Kamion> sorry, context?
<fabbione> BenC: i think we still wants them. elmo gave me some ideas about -server kernels today (together with other people)
<BenC> ppc64 is the only thing worth -server, but it's not really terrible in it's current state
<fabbione> BenC: but we can take it outside
<mdz> BenC: as part of preventing-hardware-support-regressions, please draft a mail for -announce to explain that we really, really need the community to test our milestones for hardware regressions
<mdz> Kamion: context = ubuntu-server-kernel
<Kamion> thanks
<mdz> daniels is on leave
<mdz> dholbach: next
<dholbach> inclusion-of-docs: did another update, mdke did a call for proofreaders / doc-testers
<dholbach> this week (done): gnome 2.13.4, bug triage
<dholbach> this week (to do): some missing gnome uploads, catching up on bug triage
<dholbach> next week: more bug triage, do a bug day, get an overview over universe (merges, new packages), merges, make check list for uvf
<mdz> dholbach: if the inclusion-of-docs process is in place and working, we can consider it completed
<dholbach> mdz: ok, i'll change the spec data then
<mdz> if there is no more work to be done on it apart from continuing to do updates
<dholbach> mdz, Kamion: did the ubuntu-docs update go to breezy yet?
<dholbach> breezy-updates I mean
<mdz> I'm behind on mail
<ogra_ibook> dholbach, we're waiting for infinity
<Kamion> dholbach: when I last had time to check, the edubuntu-artwork interaction wasn't sorted out yet
<dholbach> ogra_ibook: i think not for breezy
<dholbach> oh alright
<ogra_ibook> dholbach, he wanted to review the alternatives change we need
<dholbach> ok, i'll talk to infinity then
<mdz> dholbach: how is test-plans going?
<ogra_ibook> Kamion, it is sorted, he just needs to approve the patches
<mdz> that's a high priority goal
<dholbach> mdz: i did some changes to it and talked to the media team about more tests, now we need some community buzz around it
<dholbach> mdz: i'll put more work into it
<mdz> dholbach: what remains to be done in order to meet the requirements of the spec?
<mdz> dholbach: I suggest having a talk with BenC regarding test-plans
<mdz> and preventing-hardware-support-regressions
<mdz> we should have a hardware support test plan component if we don't already
<dholbach> mdz: we had a conversation on email about that already - but we will continue on that
<mdz> ok, thanks
<mdz> doko: next
<doko> this week:
<doko> - openoffice.org: integrating martink's xmlsearch patch, prepackaged ooo2-helpcontent can be dropped, fighting with build problems only seen on the buildd's (l10n), prepare packages for breezy-updates (support work), fighting gij problems on powerpc, currently work around it.
<doko> - toolchain-roadmap: scan bugzilla for open reports, forward/close, snyc/merge packages with gcc-4.0 fixes
<doko> - python-roadmap: delayed again for next week
<doko> next week:
<doko> - openoffice.org: merge with unstable, update the current milestone, update dictionaries
<doko> - python-roadmap: python-central update
<doko> - syncs/merges which need to be done before UVF.
<doko> status:
<doko> - toolchain-roadmap: amd64-biarch (still blocked), should be ready this week
<doko> - toolchain-dapper+1: blocked by preparation of wanna-build and buildd infrastructure
<doko> - openoffice-gnome: not started, martink will work on testsuite packaging and gnome integration testing (i.e. file selector in January)
<doko> - openoffice-help: implemented
<doko> - openoffice-spellchecking: not started
<doko> - native-java-gcj: infrastructure is ready, packaging of -gcj binary packages not started
<doko> - java-roadmap: mostly done, pending are eclipse updates and the native-java-gcj support
<mdz> doko: which syncs/merges are on your list for before UVF?
<doko> mdz: I was going through current upstream version from distrowatch, where we are behind major versions
<mdz> I talked to jbailey about biarch, and he hoped to have it finished by now or soon after the meeting
<doko> i.e. Bittorrent, vnc, and some other. plus various python related packages, which should be current upstream
<mdz> doko: I'm interested to hear what you found in your upstream version comparison; please send me an email on it
<doko> yes, biarch should not be a problem
<mdz> jbailey: can you commit to having it ready by the end of this week?
<doko> mdz: ok, tomorrow
<mdz> jbailey may still be fixing his machine...
<mdz> doko: thanks
<jbailey> mdz: Assuming I get gdb and an editor that's not nano on the new porting box fairly earlyish tomorrow, yes.
<jbailey> (madly retyping my status update, sorry)
<mdz> jbailey: do you have an RT ticket open already?
<jbailey> Yup
<mdz> ok
<mdz> fabbione: next
<fabbione> * server-candy: system-integrity-check (ex md5client) has been partially redesigned and rewritten. There is an outstanding performance issue that we are working on (client side). Deploy is blocked on admins (rt: #723). Commu
<fabbione> nity is growning fast with positive response and picking up tasks from the specs.
<fabbione> * ubuntu-cluster: full upgrades of currently supported suites. I doubt we will manage to get more in dapper as n
<fabbione> ew features. Need to test all the new upstream code that landed in the last 2 days.
<fabbione> * probe-for-root-filesystem: no progress this week.
<fabbione> * boot-from-usb: blocked by probe-for-root-filesystem.
<fabbione> * merges: zlib - still pending libc6-i386-dev, one merge (partman-auto-lvm) is pending but nothing scary or urgent.
<fabbione> * last week: system-integrity-check and server-candy work, ubuntu-cluster, kernel regression (#20771).
<fabbione> * next week: change the default kernel install on -server with Kamion, servercandy full speed, possibly start on probe-for-root-filesystem.
<fabbione> (the latter is modulo Kamion availability to hack on switching the kernel)
<Kamion> I can walk you through most of it in about ten minutes
<mdz> fabbione: anytime you are blocked on server-candy, please start on boot-from-usb/probe-for-root-filesystem.  those are relatively important
<Kamion> for that matter I can probably *do* it in about ten minutes, but no promises :-)
<fabbione> mdz: i am rarely blocked on server-candy as real work. I am blocked from uploading a final package in the archive
<mdz> fabbione: libc6-i386-dev is part of the same biarch work that jbailey is working on?
<fabbione> Kamion: ok :)
<fabbione> mdz: yes afaik
<jbailey> mdz: Yes, that and libc6-i386
<mdz> fabbione: boot-from-usb should make it into a milestone soon so that it can be tested
<mdz> sometime before the sprint definitely
<fabbione> mdz: it's a medium priority spec. server-candy is sucking most of my time
<fabbione> mdz:  i will try to prioritize it
<mdz> fabbione: it should take a lot less time; if you can squeeze it in, then it would be best to get it done early
<mdz> thanks
<mdz> infinity is on leave
<mdz> iwj: next
<iwj> AutomatedTesting:  No change since last report.  I will resume work on this next week.  Apparently the IBM LTC are interested in this too and there's going to be a call (organised by Malcom Yates I think).
<iwj> Firefox maintenance:  Release today to fix packaging problems; more work needed and I hope to have another release on Friday.  BreezyFirefoxStartPageTranslation didn't happen and Matthew East and I haven't quite settled on the scheme for Dapper.  I'm trying not to let ff consume more than 50% of me but it's tough.
<iwj> DefaultApplicationsFirefox: no change since last report.  Firefox needs more other work too - see above.
<iwj> ThinClientLocalDevices: It has disappeared from my specs table in launchpad.  What has happened ?  Has it been cancelled ?  Surely I should have got some kind of notification ?
<iwj> Email backlog: considerable, still.
<iwj> DeveloperDocumentation: Not started, not blocked.
<mdz> iwj: let's chat about firefox strategy later on today
<iwj> You mean after the meeting ?
<mdz> yes, and after you've slept, assuming you plan to
<iwj> I was going to get 8 hours if I could ...
<mdz> right, so later today when you're awake
<iwj> Right.
<mdz> you mentioned last week that you were waiting for something from robert collins?  did you get it?
<iwj> No; but it wasn't critical.
<iwj> It's starting to be past the point where it'd be useful and I don't want to block on it.  He had some ideas about the test list spec file.
<mdz> thin client local devices seems unlikely to make it for dapper
<ogra_ibook> yup
<mdz> I think it needs more discussion and design work
<iwj> Right.  Shouldn't lp have sent me a mail ?
<iwj> Certainly, yes.
<mdz> I don't think the spec tracker sends email for anything yet
<iwj> Oh.
<mdz> it's a work in progress, feel free to hit #launchpad with questions
<iwj> Right.
<iwj> Then I think whoever canned it for dapper (good decision) should have told me ?
<mdz> ok, thanks
<mdz> jbailey asked to be bumped to the end
<jbailey> mdz: I'm okay now
<jbailey> ToolchainRoadmap: Biarch packages in progress (didn't want NEW handling over the winter break).  Updated to 2.3.6.  Some more Debian patches to take in, but all the packaging updates are done.
<jbailey> ToolchainRoadmapNg: Upstream glibc announced ABI freeze date for glibc-2.4 (January 9th), so we will do glibc 2.4 for Dapper +1.  Posted question about dropping pre-i686 to ubuntu-devel, no negative feedback.  Haven't sync'd this with doko yet, but hopefully archive rebuild tests can proceed with this in mind.
<jbailey> Merges: klibc - definetly following "release early, release often".  Looks like the 1.1.15 release is finally good enough to boot all arches, so UVF is smelling good.
<jbailey> glibc - More debian patches to bring in.
<mdz> ok then
<mdz> jbailey: I haven't had a chance to review your mail about pre-i686 in depth yet, will do so soon
<jbailey> mdz: Thanks.
<mdz> it's a proposal for dapper+1 presumably, so no rush?
<jbailey> Right, but it's invasive enough it would be nice to do tests by mid-feb
<doko> no rush is relative ...
<ogra_ibook> heh
<mdz> e.g., we can talk about it in London in a few weeks
<jbailey> Yup.
<mdz> ok, thanks
<mdz> Kamion: next
<Kamion> ubuntu-express-base-system: Tollef's split out the keymapper widget from cdebconf. I have username/password configuration working by calling code from user-setup, which is very encouraging and I think validates my basic approach.
<Kamion> ubuntu-express: Not a lot else of note, although I have got a fair bit more infrastructure nailed down as a result of the above. Main short-term goal is to polish up the guts to the point where others can help.
<Kamion> misc: Single-stage installer work merged from Debian, killing base-config and fixing lots of bugs; testing appreciated. Only two days' work so far this week due to holidays.
<Kamion> blocked: Need a way to get the unmodified file system on the live CD in order to implement ubuntu-express-copy-filesystem. Tollef is working on this.
<Kamion> next-week: Start back in on ue-partitioning-tool; I have the infrastructure now to make that roughly sensible. gfxboot-theme-ubuntu bug fixes and maybe an enhancement or two needed for cd-bootloader.
<mdz> we covered the salient bits on the phone today, I think
<Kamion> yeah, I think so
<mdz> thanks
<mdz> Keybuk: next
<Keybuk> udev-roadmap: Implemented
<Keybuk> hardware-detection: Implemented (informational)
<Keybuk> hardware-activation: Implemented
<Keybuk> streamlined-boot: Uploads in progress, doing merges as I do the uploads.
<Keybuk> network-magic: Going to test madwifi-ng, which may unblock network-manager.  netbase and ifupdown modifications planned.  have a plan for using udev's native "ifrename" support, and reliably swapping interface names.
<Keybuk> this week: finish streamlined-boot, do ifupdown work
<mdz> Keybuk: is there a followup to be done regarding the urgent-reboot-notification bit?
<mdz> (from udev-roadmap)
<Keybuk> I'm not sure, that was seperated into another spec that mpt was working on
<Keybuk> udev does the right "reboot required" thing for the current lightbulb
<mdz> I'm assuming it's not a critical piece of udev-roadmap, since it's set to implemented
<Keybuk> the mpt spec was to make that a little more obvious I think
<Keybuk> right
<mdz> ok
<mdz> streamlined-boot is looking mostly reasonable, but please, pretty please, fix that bug which broke shutdown
<Keybuk> yup, have it fixed already, will upload tomorrow morning along with the "mount /dev/pts again" fix
<mdz> ok
<mdz> thanks
<mdz> are krstic or lathiat here?
<mdz> no
<mdz> Mithrandir: next
<Mithrandir> ooo-amd64: no progress
<Mithrandir> live-cd-performance: incremental progress seen, going to look at squashfs some more for more speedups, as well as doing more readahead.  Well on track
<Mithrandir> one-true-path: no progress
<Mithrandir> simplified-livecd: mostly there, keyboard selection now works, locales works, SCSI cdroms work, 
<Mithrandir> media-integrity-check: almost there, was hanging on usplash bugs, I think I have fixed them now.  If so, implemented
<Mithrandir> network-authentication: no progress
<Mithrandir> livecd-unionfs: implemented, but the powerpc kernel has problems with unionfs
<Mithrandir> blocked on: some live cd infrastructure stuff, like getting squashfs support in, generally people getting back from vacation.
<mdz> Mithrandir,Kamion: is it feasible to use different overlay systems (unionfs, cloop) on different architectures for the sake of powerpc?
<Mithrandir> already implemented
<mdz> right, it's implemented in casper, but is it reasonable to actually do this for the final release?
<Mithrandir> it loses a fair chunk of space on the powerpc cd
<mdz> at the least it would mean that we wouldn't be able to take much advantage of the space savings by adding software
<Kamion> we could take advantage of it with language packs on x86 still
<mdz> unless we did it only on i386 and amd64
<Kamion> has anyone got stuck into the unionfs bugs at all? I know BenC has a powerpc now ...
<mdz> is powerpc still pressed for space in current dapper?
<ogra_ibook> yup
<daniels> hi, sorry I'm late.
<Mithrandir> do we have any kind of estimate how much effort it would be to fix the unionfs bugs?
<mdz> 642M it looks like
<mdz> daniels: got your SMS
<dholbach> daniels! :)
<mdz> Mithrandir: I certainly don't
<mdz> the unionfs bugs I have gotten friendly with have been a lot of work to track down
<Mithrandir> hmm, that sounds bad.
<mdz> Mithrandir: are they straightforward reproducible bugs, or weird bugs?
<Kamion> Mithrandir: keyboard selection> we still need the bootloader side of that, and maybe simplified command line argument aliases for the sake of powerpc
<Kamion> mdz: oopsen
<Kamion> followed by weird bugs
<Mithrandir> mdz: ENOPOWERPC, so ask colin?
<Kamion> but reproducible, the desktop goes insane
<Kamion> at least on my box, but I think somebody else mentioned similar issues
<mdz> Mithrandir: speaking of oopsen, is there a bug filed for that non-fatal oops during boot on the live cd?
<Mithrandir> Kamion: yes, but I'm guessing based on locale, which is somewhat-reasonable.
<Mithrandir> mdz: I haven't filed one, but I asked benc about it, he didn't have any offhand ideas, at least.  Might be in an awkward spot to debug.
<mdz> please get it into bugzilla for tracking
<Mithrandir> ok
<Mithrandir> I'll see if I can actually _capture_ the oops as well
<mdz> Mithrandir: does network-authentication look like something we can actually achieve, or no?
<fabbione> Mithrandir: benc got ppc last week. 
<mdz> it's getting late in the cycle to start a new 30+ developer-day project
<mdz> it has an approved spec, but iirc it's not entirely clear what we should do there
<Mithrandir> mdz: I'm getting doubtful, especially if we want to try to get multiarch and such started before dapper's out.
<dholbach> mdz: you meant  https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/linux-source-2.6.15/+bug/5838 ?
<mdz> dholbach: yes, that looks like the same bug
<mdz> on a related note, the bugzilla->malone migration is tentatively scheduled for next week
<mdz> look for an announcement soon with details and instructions
* seb128 notes to get bug triaged before that :p
<jbailey> mdz: Got a related note on Soyuz, too?
<dholbach> mdz: do you know if we will have the default-assignees / qa-contacts?
<Mithrandir> mdz: we should talk about if we should go for squashfs or not, at some point.
<pitti> mdz: I already wondered, wasn't it planned for right before xmas?
<Kamion> dholbach: the bug contacts stuff is in as I understand it, yes
<mdz> pitti: there were some delays, and then holidays pushed everything forward
<Mithrandir> mdz: since currently, the speed optimisations are mostly me trying different things, some of which have infrastructural changes (such as squashfs)
<seb128> if it's in atm it doesn't work
<Kamion> see https://wiki.launchpad.canonical.com/BugzillaImportProcess for the planned procedure
<dholbach> Kamion: then I'll have to figure out how it works. :)
<mdz> soyuz rollout is scheduled for the week of January 23rd, directly before the sprint
<dholbach> pitti: late christmas present
<mdz> I will be in London that week assisting the Launchpad team with the rollout
<Kamion> seb128: the actual contact data hasn't been imported yet; it'll be imported right before the rollout
<mdz> dholbach: we will have default contacts
<Kamion> but the code is, I'm told, landed
<dholbach> mdz: cool.
<seb128> would be nice to get the code running for some time before
<seb128> so we know if it works fine
<mdz> seb128: the bugzilla default assignees will be imported very soon, I think in the next couple of days
<Kamion> to do that we'd have to agree to freeze component maintainer data in bugzilla
<mdz> there's a thread on the launchpad list about the migration
<mdz> Kamion: it's pretty stable really; there will be an announcement when we should stop touching it
<dholbach> seb128: we should split up some packages for that and make sure we get the bugs on desktop-bugs@ too
<seb128> yep
<mdz> you'll be able to add an arbitrary number of bug contacts for a package
<mdz> rather than just an assignee and a QA contact as in bugzilla
<mdz> so it should be easier to involve teams and interested individuals
<Kamion> at the moment, you can only add yourself as a contact; we can't do it for you, the way we've been doing in bugzilla
<Kamion> kind of swings and roundabouts there
<mdz> right, s/you/launchpad admins/ for now
<mdz> but I'm a launchpad admin
<mdz> so feel free to route those requests through me
<Keybuk> hmm, what about when you punt a bug across to a different package
<Kamion> shall we defer more about this to other business at the end of the meeting, just to make sure we get through everyone?
<mdz> Mithrandir: if we're going to do squashfs on i386/amd64, we should go ahead and do it straight away
<Keybuk> I do that maybe 5-10 times a day with kernel or pmount bugs
<Keybuk> which obviously need contact changes
<mdz> to get as much testing as possible
<Mithrandir> mdz: I'm going to look at it with infinity once he gets back
<mdz> I think it's definitely worth a try; we should be able to switch back painlessly if necessary
<Kamion> it may require fairly trivial cdimage changes; let me know
<dholbach> mdz: I pinged Lathiat - he seems to be there.
<mdz> Keybuk: talk to bradb/launchpad@lists about it; I'm not sure offhand how the semantics work currently
<Mithrandir> and jbailey just uploaded a klibc-utils with a squashfs-working fstype, so it should be good.
<mdz> cool
<mdz> thanks, Mithrandir
<mdz> mvo: next
<mvo> Did:
<mvo> - libnotify 0.3.0 upload/transition (fixed bugs in the daemon, did the api changes on the dependencies, updated seeds) [DapperDesktopPlan] 
<mvo> - backported gdebi and updated unattended-upgrades to breezy and ask for testing in ubuntuforums.org [AutomaticUpdates] 
<mvo> - improved synaptics support for people with slow internet connection [NonBroadbandUsers] 
<mvo> - bugfixes/improvments in gnome-app-install and gdebi [ThirdPartyPackages]  
<mvo> Next week:
<mvo> - work on the ThirdPartyPackages spec (add key support to the channels)
<mvo> - work on the AutomaticUpgrades
<mvo> Open merges:
<mvo> - synaptic, aptitude 
<mdz> mvo: we still need to talk about the upgrade tool.  later today?
<Lathiat> bingles
<mvo> mdz: yes, when I had some sleep please :)
<mdz> mvo: is release-upgrades blocked on discussion with me?
<mvo> no
<mdz> it wasn't clear whether your comment at the last meeting referred to automatic-upgrades or release-upgrades
<mdz> release-upgrades is your highest priority assignment right now
<mvo> I was asking if it would be worth backporting the automatic-upgrades stuff to breezy to get testing
<mdz> so please be sure to work on it ahead of AutomaticUpgrades
<mvo> right
<mdz> mvo: sure, get it into -backports
<mvo> thanks
<mdz> and send a call for testing to an appropriate list
<mvo> I'll be on dist-upgrades again 
<mdz> ok, thanks
<mdz> Lathiat: want to give us a quick update on zeroconf_?
<mvo> I send a request on ubuntuforums (after speaking with the backports team about a appropriate place)
<mdz> Lathiat: is this something we're going to be able to do or not?
<Lathiat> Well avahi is now approved for main
<Riddell> Lathiat: cool
<Lathiat> default installation of avahi-daemon is not possible at this time, but libavahi-client can be installed without avahi-daemon
<Lathiat> so programs like gnomevfs etc can be compiled with it
<Lathiat> the zerocofn stuff will simply not work
<Lathiat> that obviously needs testing to make sure those programs are doing the right thing and wont die because of it
<mdz> ok, I see no reason not to start building in the support if it's in main now
<Lathiat> but shoudl work in theory
<pitti> Lathiat: s/at this time/not sensible because of our security policy/
<Lathiat> main reason not to start avahi-daemon is due to security/open ports policy
* pitti reminds people that we have only 10 minutes left
<mdz> the spec calls for avahi not to listen on the network by default
<mdz> pitti: good point
<seb128> mdz: I've uploaded a gnome-vfs2 using avahi today, build wait on the actual promotion of the lib
<Lathiat> mdz: which is easily doable by not installing avahi-daemon
<mdz> Lathiat: let's talk about this another time in detail
<mdz> need to keep moving
<mdz> ogra_ibook: next
<ogra_ibook> me ?
<mdz> thanks mvo
<Lathiat> ok
<Lathiat> cheers
<ogra_ibook> * thin-client-sound: waiting for mdz to approve on return.
<ogra_ibook> * thin-client-local-devices: no progress.
<ogra_ibook> * thin-client-memory-usage: some more changes locally done and tested, patch to initramfs provided to infinity.
<ogra_ibook> * thin-client-faster-startup: speed up the first module loading through the above mentioned patch (http://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/attachment.cgi?id=5494).
<ogra_ibook> * gnome-screensaver-default-image: will pick dummy images next week to finally have some package up, need to ping sabdfl again for his pics.
<ogra_ibook> * general: mostly donwe powerpc testing, dhcpd.conf changes for automatic bootimage selection are already up on http://people.ubuntu.com/~ogra/bzr-archive/ltsp/multiarch/, ltsp-build-client and ltsp-update-kernels still need some work (yaboot and kernel stuff) for full powerpc support. gcompris 7.2 tests for edubntu.
<ogra_ibook> * next week: testing the dhcpd change for compensating the new introduced --next-server option in ltsp, finish the changes on ltsp-build-client and the ltsp-client package for faster startup, multiarch (powerpc) and mem usage. dig for the reason of the nfs timeouts, gcompris 7.2 and xscreensaver merge.
<Keybuk> Lathiat: can you push anything involving "ifconfig" past me first (ie. setting of an IP address on an interface which doesn't have one) as that'd need co-ordinating with udev and network-manager too
<mdz> ogra_ibook: I reviewed faster-startup and added comments
<ogra_ibook> yup i saw in one if my handfull of mails getting through 
<mdz> ogra_ibook: Keybuk is the approver for thin-client-sound; there's no reason it should have been blocked on me
<mdz> that could have been taken care of while I was away
<ogra_ibook> yu asked to approve it at ubz 
<ogra_ibook> its mainly implemented ahead of the spec already ...
<mdz> I've said all I have to say on the sound spec since UBZ; it's Keybuk's
<ogra_ibook> just missing the ltspsink...
<ogra_ibook> oki
<ogra_ibook> i'll reassign it
<Keybuk> ping me tomorrow about it
<ogra_ibook> yup
<mdz> ok
<mdz> thanks
<mdz> pitti: next
<Keybuk> where tommorow~=today after I've slept :p
<pitti> last days before holidays: fix grave config file handling bugs in cupsys, PHP/kernel security update
<pitti> general stuff this week: security updates, catch up with email and security review, did the overdue g-v-m update
<pitti> gstreamer-audio-backend: implemented everything on our side; the libgnome audio events issue is still left, but that's an upstream thing
<pitti> no progress on other specs, no blocks
<pitti> plan next week: catch up with a load of pending security updates, try to implement the .server files part of langpacks-desktopfiles
<mdz> ok
<mdz> thanks
<mdz> seb128: next
<pitti> mdz: did you have a chance to look at the gstreamer status?
<seb128> dapper-desktop-plan: first version of the new session dialog uploaded
<seb128> video-playback: gstreamer0.10/gst-plugins-base0.10 updated to 0.10.1, rhythmbox/totem built with gst0.10
<seb128> other: bug triage, GNOME 2.13.4
<seb128> next-week: continue to catch up with bugzilla backlog, panel changes of dapper-desktop-plan, starting on gdm changes of dapper-desktop-plan
<pitti> mdz: are you fine with setting it to implemented?
<mdz> pitti: I'm not sure what the issues are; please email
<pitti> mdz: ok
<mdz> seb128: what about the other parts of dapper-desktop-plan?  there is a lot there
<seb128> not that much, that's basically panel/applets change, I'll work on that next week
<seb128> and gdm changes which are next
<mdz> gdm, logout button, battstat applet, etc.
<seb128> button/applets/... are what I listed as "panel changes"
<mdz> I tried out totem-gstreamer with the latest stuff
<mdz> A/V sync seems to still be poor
<mdz> is that your experience as well?
<seb128> what audiosink do you use?
<seb128> it works quite fine for me
<mdz> ALSA
<seb128> pitti: you played with that too, did you have some issue?
<pitti> it works great for me
<pitti> mdz: the default should now be autoaudiosink
<dholbach> for me too
<mdz> hmm, it works well with an mpeg I have, but not a vorbis/theora ogg
<pitti> mdz: it uses esound if dmix doesn't work
<mdz> maybe the ogg is broken, I'll look at it further
<mdz> pitti: I probably changed it at some point
<pitti> mdz: I didn't test with theora, I don't have a theora video here
<mdz> seems unlikely that it's codec-specific, maybe a problem with the stream I tested with
<pitti> mdz: gst 0.10 has its own gconf settings, btw
<ogra_ibook> arent the ubz videos theora ? 
<mdz> yes
<dholbach> http://videos.ubuntu.com/ubz/
<mdz> I was testing with Martijn's videos
<mdz> anyway, something to look at offline
<mdz> Riddell: next
<Riddell> since last meeting: fixing kubuntu-system-tools, investigate CUPS 1.2 with KDE, investigate gstreamer 0.10 with KDE, daily CD testing
<Riddell> this week: bugs fixing notably KDE xkb support, sudo wrapper, hopefully kubuntu-express partitioning tool, taking delivery of kubuntu breezy CDs and sending them out, KDE avahi support
<Riddell> blocking: kubuntu-package-manager bounty needs response from mdz
<Riddell> also interesting: KDE 3.5.1 scheduled for tagging jan 20th, 3.5.2 for tagging 17th march
<mdz> Riddell: what's happening with kubuntu-roadmap-dapper?
<Riddell> also interesting (for pitti): I expect one app in kubuntu main to have a release ported to qt 4 this week coming
<mdz> that's a high-priority approved spec which didn't get an update last week either
<pitti> yay library duplication :/
<Riddell> mdz: it what I do when I'm not doing anything else
<Kamion> Riddell: you probably want to start looking at http://people.ubuntu.com/~cjwatson/bzr/espresso/ubuntu/
<Riddell> mdz: most is done or in progress
<mdz> Riddell: how much of it has been done so far?  it needs to be included in your status updates
<Kamion> (for kubuntu-express)
<mdz> Riddell: please email an update to me and janew later today with details
<seb128_> hum, disconnect
<seb128_> anything after "<dholbach> http://videos.ubuntu.com/ubz/" ?
<Riddell> mdz: ok
<mdz> and find some time to chat with Kamion about kubuntu-express in more depth
<Kamion> Riddell: (it'll be changing a lot, the user-setup stuff is much closer to how I want the final shape of it to be than anything else is at the moment)
<dholbach> seb128_: I'll paste in a query
<mdz> ok, we're out of time
<mdz> thanks for staying up, europeans
<ogra_ibook> heh
<mdz> 0800 UTC next week, right?
* Mithrandir yawns
* pitti crawls back into bed
<pitti> thanks everybody
<mdz> good night
<ogra_ibook> thanks
<Keybuk> has anyone noticed the pattern means we have a 0200 UTC while we're ALL in the UK? :p
* pitti votes for an exception
<mdz> Riddell: I don't have anything in my inbox from you; if you're waiting for a response from me on a bounty please resend
<jbailey> Keybuk: Is that after the bars close?
<Mithrandir> we can have it in a bar.
<Mithrandir> or, rather, pub.
<Riddell> mdz: ok, was from before christmas
<iwj> mdz: Did you want to talk about firefox now or in about 8h30 ?
<mdz> it's possible that it got lost in the post-holiday shuffle
<Kamion> jbailey: the UK just reformed its licensing laws to allow 24-hour licensing ...
<Keybuk> jbailey: depends on the bar/pub now
<ogra_ibook> Mithrandir, i think they close earlier
<ogra_ibook> oh
<ogra_ibook> cool
<jbailey> Kamion, Keybuk: I don't see the problem with the meeting time, then. =)
<mdz> iwj: more like 14h
<Keybuk> anyway, back to bed
<jbailey> g'n all.  demain.
* fabbione plans to get some sleep too
<doko> good night
* mvo goes to bed as well
<iwj> Fine by me.  I'll be around until probably 1900UTC or so tomorrow so any time before then.  Thanks.
<pitti> night
<dholbach> good night everybody
<iwj> Goodnight everyone.
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:robitaille] :  Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/  |  10 Jan 15:00 UTC: Community Council | 11 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 12 Jan 08:00 UTC: Dapper Development Status | 17 Jan 20:00 UTC: Technical Board
<fabbione> yo
<fabbione> so today i did the test for booting/installing on usb devices
<fabbione> the installer itself works just fine
<Kamion> (on x86 anyway ...)
<fabbione> x86_64
<fabbione> but it's the only hw i could test in few hours
<fabbione> the main isssue we have is the bootloader
<fabbione> both grub-installer and lilo-installer are no no in this setup
<fabbione> the problem is complex 
<fabbione> and it is related to the BIOS on which we are installing
<fabbione> let me exaplain the details
<fabbione> grub-installer by default search for the first disk the bios can see
<fabbione> the one that's called hd(0,..)
<mdz> right, they both need to know the BIOS drive number in order to load the next stage
<fabbione> this disk is not necesseraly the one where we are installing
<fabbione> for example i did a netinstall and hd(0 was my unremovable hda
<mdz> but there are ways to make this work
<mdz> there are howtos for making bootable USB keys with Linux
<fabbione> mdz: it's not the only problem...
<fabbione> now it is possible to workaround this first step using the grub-install --rescan (didn't check lilo)
<fabbione> to find the map between the actual device where we are installing 
<fabbione> s/ between/of
<fabbione> assuming we can automate this process
<Kamion> there's conversion code in grub-installer to convert OS devices to the corresponding GRUB drives
<Kamion> using that in the case of USB may help
<fabbione> we need to write a first menu.list, that will install grub MBR to the proper device
<fabbione> after that
<fabbione> we need to write another config that will use hd(0,..(
<fabbione> because when you do select from the BIOS to boot from USB
<fabbione> the BIOS device mapping changes
<Kamion> grub-installer already has to deal with that kind of issue for chaining to other bootloaders; I don't think this should be a big problem to solve
<Kamion> ah, not with the BIOS device mapping changing though
<fabbione> the problems i am thinking are:
<fabbione> 1) upgrades of the MBR
<Kamion> yes, that's rather messy to automate
<fabbione> 2) are all the BIOS coherent?
<mdz> there's always syslinux
<fabbione> that means.. do they all change mapping?
<fabbione> otherwise apart from usb-storage that was not modprobed at initramfs stage
<fabbione> the boot does work
<fabbione> (modulo changing root device that's part of probe-for-root)
<fabbione> mdz: how can that help us?
<fabbione> that means having a syslinux-installer/udeb set
<fabbione> we also don't have a way to know:
* Keybuk knows why usb-storage doesn't load :D
<fabbione> - is the user really asking to install the MBR on the removable device? or is it only installing there and wants the MBR on his real hd(0 ?
<mdz> fabbione: syslinux doesn't need to know which drive it's on
<fabbione> Keybuk: ok!
<mdz> if the user is installing to a USB device, we should install the boot loader there
<Keybuk> we, err, don't probe for USB controllers
<Kamion> fabbione: the latter is a corner case that can be handled by a low-priority question in the installer, much like the existing one in grub-installer
<mdz> if they want something weird where the boot loader is on a different disk, they can do that manually
<mdz> (or maybe in expert mode?)
<Kamion> that's what expert mode's for
<fabbione> mdz: i am not that sure.. really
<mdz> I am quite sure about this
<fabbione> in one of my install i was happy of the actual behaviour...
<Kamion> every bug report I've ever got about USB installations going wrong wanted boot-from-USB as the default
<Kamion> I'm with mdz here
<fabbione> ok
<fabbione> Keybuk: we will need to change that. otherwise this work becomes.. hmm pointless :)
<Kamion> having to go to syslinux would be annoying, though, and a moderate amount of work
<Kamion> you wouldn't have to have a syslinux-udeb though
<Kamion> installing it in /target and running that would be fine
<Keybuk> fabbione: yeah, think it was just an oversight ... just gotta figure out what they identify themselves as
<mdz> Keybuk: we used to
<fabbione> Kamion: ok
<Keybuk> mdz: yeah, we did in breezy
<fabbione> of course fixing the grub thing, should be relatively easy. it's question of re-iterating twice on the config
<Kamion> that's not a problem, we already iterate twice
<fabbione> Kamion: changing config at the end?
<mdz> Keybuk: we should continue to do so; it's important for USB keyboards to work in early userspace e.g.
<mdz> fabbione: I'm not so sure that fixing grub is easy
<Kamion> oh, well, we don't run grub-install twice, but we do run update-grub after running grub-install
<fabbione> mdz: we need to fix grub-installer, not grub itself
<fabbione> and this is a special case
<Kamion> you only need to make it generate the device.map first; not rocket science ...
<fabbione> becasue the installer by default pass hd(0 or the closest to grub
<mdz> my understanding is that grub has three chunks which are chained together
<mdz> the first is a boot sector
<mdz> then the filesystem code
<mdz> then stage2
<mdz> stage1, stage1.5, stage2
<Kamion> my main request here is that we not attempt to change grub-installer's behaviour for hard disk installs
<fabbione> Kamion: ohh that falls the donkey
<Kamion> I don't want to risk exchanging bugs we know for unknown bugs with unknown impact
<fabbione> because i did install on a usb hd
<Kamion> fabbione: what?
<Kamion> I mean for IDE/SCSI hard disks
<fabbione> usb hd are seen as scsi
<fabbione> you see sda
<mdz> but you can tell the difference
<fabbione> (or whatever)
<mdz> this code should only come into play if the device is removable
<mdz>  /sys/block/sda/removable
<fabbione> right.. that creates an exception :)
<Keybuk> mdz: yeah, it's a clear bug ... we deal with them when compiled into the kernel by the elmos of this world, I just clean forgot to probe them too
<fabbione> ok
<Keybuk> fabbione: add to your /usr/share/initramfs-tools/scripts/init-premount/udev script (probably in the BOOT=local bit, before the -Bpci line) something like:
<Keybuk>   /sbin/udevplug -Bpci -Iclass=0x0c*
<Keybuk> or just modify the exiting -Bpci line to be -Iclass=0x0[1c] *
<fabbione> Keybuk: ok i will try.. testing that thing takes heaps load of time
<mdz> why?
<fabbione> Kamion: how familiar are you with grub-installer
<Kamion> about 6 out of 10
<fabbione> mdz: this machine takes about 5 minutes to go trough POST
<Kamion> it's one of the more difficult bits of code in d-i
<fabbione> Kamion: ok.. do you think we can look at it together?
<Kamion> logically difficult, I mean
<Kamion> sure
<Kamion> not right now, but yeah
<fabbione> i know it about 0/100
<fabbione> not right now.. no
<fabbione> Kamion: ok.. should we set a date and time to look at it?
<fabbione> Kamion: i am relatively flexible with  my schedule
<fabbione> so i prefer to match your spare time
<Kamion> let's just make it next week sometime, we'll sort it out on the fly
<fabbione> spare as in i am not working as a slave 23h59m per day
<Kamion> our hours are relatively compatible
<fabbione> Kamion: works for me.
<fabbione> thanks
<fabbione> mdz: and this is the only box i have that can do boot from USB. sucks but that's how it works :)
<fabbione> Keybuk: once we fix this boot loader problem
<fabbione> we still have the issue with probe-for-root
<fabbione> (and the other partitions)
<Keybuk> "the issue" ?
<fabbione> last time we did talk you mentioned problems with IDE
<fabbione> "the issue" as in not implemented yet
<Keybuk> where does IDE come into it?
<Keybuk> I wager nobody with IDE cares about probe-for-root ;)
<Keybuk> it's useful for SCSI, SATA, USB, IEEE1394, et. al.
<fabbione> Keybuk: well i remember you saying something about it. I would have to recheck the irc logs to be sure
<fabbione> but i think the case was:
<Keybuk> yeah, you can't use root=/dev/disk/ if it's an IDE disk on a generic (non-PCI) controller
<fabbione> install on usb and move the hd into an IDE system
<fabbione> or something like that
<fabbione> ok, what was the reason for that?
<Keybuk> because we don't know to load ide-generic
<mdz> we can expect the user to fix the bootloader and even the initramfs in that situation
<Keybuk> because there's nothing to tell us it's an IDE disk
<Keybuk> and we can't load ide-generic unconditionally, because it breaks things
<fabbione> Keybuk: ok..
<fabbione> make sense..
<Keybuk> mostly mdz's laptop, in fact ;)
<fabbione> ehhee
<Keybuk> and ogra's, but I care about him less <g>
<fabbione> AHAHHA
<mdz> ide_generic is loaded on my laptop currently and it is working OK
<Keybuk> (actually, slightly more seriously, it pretty much breaks every machine with a SATA controller and makes them unbootable)
<Keybuk> mdz: yeah, it's loaded after we've loaded the right module
<mdz> right
<fabbione> ok
<Keybuk> on SATA machines, it's especially important that we make damned sure the driver has loaded and claimed the devices before we load ide-generic
<fabbione> Keybuk: i will need to grab your fu for the probe-for-root. We need to be sure to get it hutterly right from the beginning.
<fabbione> Keybuk: do you think you can allocate time for that?
<ogra_ibook> err, it works for me too, but i told you already
<Keybuk> which means an >3 minute wait
<Keybuk> ogra_ibook: that's, because, I, fixed, it ;P
<ogra_ibook> :P
<Keybuk> fabbione: sure
<Keybuk> is easy-peasey
<fabbione> Kamion: what would be the best place to change fstab and concept of root device before writing the MBR?
<Keybuk> I wrote the udev stuff for it a few weeks ago, and is already in dapper
<fabbione> Keybuk: yeps.. i saw the /dev/disk/by-* and tested it.
<fabbione> so that's known to work.
<fabbione> slamming it in d-i might be slightly more tricky :P
<Kamion> fabbione: fstab> partman-target
<Kamion> or thereabouts
<fabbione> Kamion: ok thanks..
* fabbione sighs at partman again
<Kamion> fabbione: root device depends on the bootloader
<Kamion> partman writes the fstab, you're not getting away from that
<fabbione> yes...
<fabbione> i know
<Kamion> and the fstab-writing code is really easy
<fabbione> ok perfect.. 
<fabbione> i am relatively familiar with partman
<fabbione> so that should be a plus
<Kamion> it's a load of fstab.d scripts that print fragments for each mountpoint, and a few scripts in partman-target that pull it all together
<fabbione> great
<fabbione> ok i think i got all the answers i was looking for
<fabbione> mdz: i think we might be able to get most of it sorted before i will go in holidays..
<fabbione> mdz: but that means slowing down -server.
<mdz> fabbione: ok, let me see if someone else can take it over
<fabbione> ok
<Keybuk> if I can get networking out of the way, I have some free cycles
<fabbione> probably it would be enough if somebody can take of one of the 2
<fabbione> i should be manage to do the other
<mdz> Keybuk: are you watching ubuntu-bugs for boot stuff?  I don't have the cycles right now to be the Great Big Bug Sorting Machine
<fabbione> (my wife is going awat sunday *hint* *hint*)
<Keybuk> mdz: yeah, I'm trying to get back up to speed with ubuntu-bugs, but I do surf it most days
<mdz> (at least the new bugs)
<Keybuk> yeah, it's the hysterical ones over crimbo that I'm behind on
<fabbione> thanks a lot guys for your time
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-01-13
<mhz> has anyone seen jelkner or kjcole today?
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-01-14
<jsgotangco> ooppss
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-01-15
<OgMaciel> Seveas, ping
<anandaputra> Halloo.. is this room loged?
<jsgotangco> yes
<anandaputra> I just want to say that I can't join the meeting today (tonite)..
<jsgotangco> did you list yourself in the wiki?
<anandaputra> 15:00 UTC is 10:00 PM in Jakarta, Indonesia..
<anandaputra> yes i am..
<anandaputra> but unfortunately i couldn't join the meeting.. it will be at nite in Jakarta..
<anandaputra> and i have no internet connection tonite.. :(
<jsgotangco> ahh too bad just in case i'm at the meeting i'll inform the guys then
<anandaputra> nice.. thank you jerome.. :)
<raphink> hi Simira 
<Simira> hello
<sivang> meeting soon?
<Seveas> 3.5 hours
<sivang> CC ?
<Seveas> yep
<Simira> oh, no
<raphink> :)
<Simira> I'll just make a part of it, going to the dentist at 17(16 utc)
* raphink noticed someone reorganized the names in the list for membership alphabetically
<raphink> or quite alphabetically
<Simira> I'm not gonna live through this meeting. I'm so tired I'll drop off any time
<Seveas> Simira, it did not even start yet :)
<jsgotangco> :D
<jsgotangco> hi mako 
<mhz> jsgotangco: hi, there
<jsgotangco> lo mhz 
* Yagisan waves at mhz, jsgotangco, Seveas and Simira
<mhz> I must leave now, to the Pharmacy and so, I won't be able to get back before meeting. Family need :(
<mhz> jsgotangco: Yagisan: sorry
<jsgotangco> no worries
<Yagisan> mhz: no need to be sorry
<mhz> I'll do my best to get back ASAP
<raphink> hi there
<sivang> hi all
<mako> greetings 
<Simira> mako :)
<jsgotangco> yo
<raphink> :)
<ubuntuser_ba> Hi!
<lucasd> aloha
<Madpilot> morning everyone
<twilight> hi all
<mako> ergh
<mako> i just spilled coffee
<mako> the second time in 10 minutes
<jsgotangco> classic mako!
<Madpilot> missed the keyboard, I hope? :P
<ealden> hi all
<lguerra> hi all
<mako> yeah
<mako> just the carpet :)
<dholbach> hello
<ubuntuser_ba> no problem.. :)
<mhz> jsgotangco: lguerra is a colombian 'ubuntero' and has been one of the very few active and willing to help guys in #edubuntu-es
<Seveas> * mako has quit (Read error: Keyboard reset by coffee)
* mhz leaves now
<Seveas> bye
<jsgotangco> ahhh
<ealden> bye mhz 
<ubuntuser_ba> hi OgMaciel 
<OgMaciel> [morning/afternoon/evening]  all
<ubuntuser_ba> ;)
* jsgotangco waves
<OgMaciel> ubuntuser_ba hey dude
<OgMaciel> jsgotangco how are ya?
<ubuntuser_ba> "tranquillo"
<OgMaciel> ubuntuser_ba yup...  ;)
<Seveas> 16:04 here
<Seveas> mako, poke
<twilight> ubuntuser_ba, italian?
<jsgotangco> pretty good
<raphink> same here :)
<Seveas> is the rest of the CC around?
* Treenaks waves his creditcard
<OgMaciel> Seveas hey bud... long time don't see ya
<raphink> who is that for Treenaks ?
<ubuntuser_ba> Brazilian
<Kamion> hi
<byteunix> hi
<ealden> lol
<Treenaks> 16:04 <      Seveas> is the rest of the CC around?
<mako> Seveas: i've been here the whole time
<ubuntuser_ba> twilight, and you?
<Seveas> mako, but we need at least 2 more CC members for quorum ;)
<twilight> ubuntuser_ba, the word "tranquillo" is italan, too..I'm italian :) sorry
<lucasd> OgMaciel, hi there.. :)
<twilight> *italian
<mako> well, quit poking me..  i'm the one hwo actually showed up :)
<OgMaciel> lucasd sup bud?
<ubuntuser_ba> twilight, i like italian words... capisci?
<ubuntuser_ba> ;)
<Simira> elmo was just alive om #-devel
<twilight> ubuntuser_ba, capisco :)
<ogra_ibook> Kamion was seen today as well already ...
<byteunix> I like girl italian :), capisci ;) ubuntuser_ba
<lucasd> OgMaciel, i'll grab my lunch and will be right back
<Kamion> ogra_ibook: dude I said "hi" just up above
<Kamion> lay off :)
<ogra_ibook> oops
<Seveas> mako, hehe, I just hoped you knew where the rest is
<OgMaciel> lucads k
<Seveas> Kamion, poke
* Seveas runs & hides
<Kamion> ok, elmo's in channel so I imagine he'll pop up when something happens
<Kamion> let's start
<Kamion> we have no locoteam business this meeting
<Kamion> and a bunch of member candidates
<Seveas> and some other business
<MarioMeyer> :)
<Seveas> ah, no ther business
<Kamion> none on the agenda
<Kamion> AnandaPutra: here?
<Kamion> FRNSantos: here?
<Kamion> LorenzoSfarra: here?
<ubuntuser_ba> yes, I am FRNSantos
<twilight> yes
<twilight> <- LorenzoSfarra
<Seveas> ubuntuser_ba, hi there
<mako> twilight: ok.. hold on.. lets deal with ubuntuser_ba  first
<ubuntuser_ba> ok
<Seveas> ubuntuser_ba, give us the 3-liner please :)
<twilight> mako, no problem
<ubuntuser_ba> My name is Fabio Nogueira, a 30 year-old Brazilian living in Salvador, Bahia.  I currently work for the State Justice Court as a computer technician and as an assistant to the system administrator, mostly handling the support of users and hardware.
<Seveas> that's line 1 :)
<raphink> ;)
<ubuntuser_ba> My relationship with Linux started with a few Live CDs (Kurumin, Kalango, etc), eventually moving through Fedora and Mandrake.  It was only after I tried Ubuntu that I first experienced true nirvana!
<OgMaciel> hehe
<ubuntuser_ba> This feeling has stayed with me now... the entire "Ubuntu way of life" appeals to me and I want to share it with the whole world.  I often find myself "spreading the word" at every place I go to... supermarkets, butcher shop, etc..
<ubuntuser_ba> and...
<ubuntuser_ba> I strongly believe that I'm ready and willing to take the responsibility that comes with being part of the Ubuntu Family!
* Kamion sees that ubuntuser_ba has the usual translator Enormous Karma Of Doom in launchpad
<OgMaciel> Kamion hehehe
<raphink> :)
<jsgotangco> heh
<MarioMeyer> :P
* mako nods to Kamion 
<Kamion> how many are there on the pt_BR translation team now?
<mako> OgMaciel: thanks for the testimonial
<mako> it's helpful
<OgMaciel> here
<OgMaciel> mako my pleasure to endorse him
<MarioMeyer> about 62, Kamion 
<mako> wow
<lucasd> OgMaciel, back :)
<Seveas> that's... a LOT
<jsgotangco> wow
<Kamion> *62*?
<OgMaciel> and many more awaiting approval
<Seveas> how many active members?
<MarioMeyer> but not all active
<Madpilot> they're busy down in BR!
<OgMaciel> Seveas 62
<Kamion> how do you coordinate that many people?
<Seveas> are they alla ctively translating?
<OgMaciel> Kamion we sometimes hold "sweepstakes"... hehehe
<MarioMeyer> we are planing some "application" process
<MarioMeyer> like tutoring the new ones..
* lucasd = Lucas Duailibe.. Here :)
<Kamion> I suppose translation work divides up easily enough, but you still have to ensure consistency of vocabulary and stuff
<OgMaciel> Seveas somewhat
<mako> MarioMeyer: lightweight with support for those that need it or want it is always good
<MarioMeyer> i say we have about 10 to 15 active translators
<OgMaciel> Kamion absolutely
<Seveas> Kamion, exactly, we kicked out lots of people in -nl that made crap translations
<ubuntuser_ba> and bad translations....
<Treenaks> and just plain wrong translations
* Treenaks Martijn van de Streek, btw
<MarioMeyer> yeah.. ubuntuser_ba has been doing a LOT of revisions of bad translations
<MarioMeyer> he has made rosetta all blue.. :P
<Seveas> haha
<OgMaciel> ubuntuser_ba has actually won a sweepstake I sponsored for translators... he's scored the highest karma
* raphink is Raphal Pinson btw too ;)
<ubuntuser_ba> blue translations is necessary
<mako> killer :)
<OgMaciel> he won an upcoming Ubuntu book whicj I'll be mailing to him soon
<mako> very excellent
<raphink> oo nice :)
<mako> ubuntuser_ba: how long have you been involved?
* Kamion looks at Planeta Ubuntu Brasil and is impressed that it seems to be more active than the English Planet
<OgMaciel> yup... he seems to have no life... hehehe
<ubuntuser_ba> with translations or Ubuntu?
<OgMaciel> Kamion we've been busy spreading the word... ;)
<MarioMeyer> Kamion, we've been working a lot on that
<OgMaciel> our wiki has been getting bigger too, thanks to people like ubuntuser_ba and lucasd
<Kamion> well, I'm happy with ubuntuser_ba for membership; you're clearly working hard and it's a strong community
<OgMaciel> 2 workhorses of the team
* mako nods to Kamion 
<Kamion> elmo: ?
<mako> absolutely
<ubuntuser_ba> Kamion, thanks
<Seveas> LorenzoSfarra, keep your 3-liner nearby, you're up soon
<elmo> ack
<OgMaciel> ubuntuser_ba congrats my friend!!!  =)
<MarioMeyer> congrats, ubuntuser_ba :P
<Seveas> welcome!
<ubuntuser_ba> thank you
<twilight> Seveas, ok..just tell me when I have to past them. (congrats ubuntuser_ba :) )
<lucasd> ubuntulog, congrats.. :)
<ubuntuser_ba> I am very happy now..
<Seveas> twilight, about now would be ok :)
<Seveas> ubuntuser_ba, you deserved it, keep up the good work
<mako> ubuntuser_ba: your wikipage was excellent as well
<twilight> Pages: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LorenzoSfarra - https://launchpad.net/people/lorenzosfarra
<OgMaciel> Seveas I'll make sure he does  ;)
<twilight> I'm 20 years old Italian guy. I'm student of Computer Science Department of L'Aquila University(Ita). I'm LocoTeam member of Ubuntu Italian Community, Member of Ubuntu Italian Translators, Member of Italian Documentation's group, Member of Italian Forum's group, Member of Italian Web's group and Member of Ubuntu Italian Planet.
<mako> good combination of testimonials, description, and evidence of contributions
<ubuntuser_ba> mako, thanks!
<twilight> With some friends, I've carry out a reorganization of Ubuntu Italian Community. I'm very interested in programming, expecially with python. In python, I've written a simple program to move Italian Page from wiki.ubuntu.com to our (Italian) wiki.ubuntu-it.org.
<Kamion> 07:53 <mdke> LorenzoSfarra (twilight) - he's the 4th member of the Italian locoteam group, and the only one not a member yet. he contributes heavily to translation work, on the italian wiki, he edits the main italian website and is a forum moderator. He has given a lot of time to the project for many months now, and is a really vital part of our team.
<Kamion> (from /msg earlier today)
<Seveas> mako, the NewMemberHowto seems to work, more of the people to show up this week show excellent pages :)
* mako nods
<mako> excellent
<Seveas> hmm, quite a good testimonial from mdke, that's not bad :)
<mako> yes, also a very good page
<Kamion> Italian Planet not quite so active but still not doing too bad
<twilight> thank you mako
<mako> quite a lot of text
<twilight> Kamion, planet it's a new project..so it's in "development":)
<jsgotangco> just like en planet lol
<twilight> I believe that it will be more active soon
<Kamion> it's only about as active as the English one. :-)
<mako> hey.. i post something on planet.u.o every day :)
<Kamion> same as above really, I'm happy, especially with mdke's testimonial
* mako nods
<Kamion> brb, coffee underflow
<Seveas> lol
<Seveas> "coffee underflow" :)
<mako> twilight: very excellent document of very excellent contributioons
* Seveas nods
<mako> i'm thrilled to have you on board
<Seveas> the italian team should be proud of itself :)
<twilight> thank you very much
<raphink> :)
<mako> elmo: ?
<elmo> ack
<Seveas> now we wait for the coffee :)
<mako> killer
<mako> we can keep things moving.. kamion will catch up
<Seveas> ok
<mako> lucasd: go ahead
<lucasd> My name is Lucas. I live in Maranho/Brazil. I've ever been a big fan of free software and I wanted to actually live it. So I started using Linux. Before Ubuntu, I have already used Slackware, Red Hat and Debian, and then, 6 months ago, I met Ubuntu.
<lucasd> As an engaged community person, I did a lot of things I could to Ubuntu. For instance, I've been a constant helper at IRC and at Mailing lists, and tried to help with tasks related to our community. Also, I've translated a lot of packages to my native language at Rosetta.
<lucasd> In the future, I wanna dedicate more of my time to Ubuntu, start to work with things I haven't helped at all. As an Ubuntu official member, I'll have more support  to organize and participate of events about Ubuntu, help with Brazil' regional sub-teams. And, of course, spread Ubuntu everywhere I can.
<Seveas> twilight, please hang around, kamion still has to vote and will do that soon
<ogra_ibook> Seveas, he did
<ogra_ibook> Seveas, "Kamion same as above really, I'm happy, especially with mdke's testimonial"
* mako nods to ogra_ibook 
<Seveas> ah ok
<Seveas> in that case: welcome aboard twilight ! congratulations!
<twilight> Thanks all
<Kamion> back
<dholbach> congratulations! :)
<MarioMeyer> congrats twilight 
<ubuntuser_ba> Congratulations twilight 
<ogra_ibook> congrats
<Seveas> lucas, what is STOPy?
<jsgotangco> no ponies as throphies though
<lucas> Seveas: lucasd != lucas
<ubuntuser_ba> congratulazioni, twilight 
<raphink> ;)
<Seveas> lucasd, what is STOPy?
<lucasd> Seveas, it's a game where a word is choosen and everybody who is playing has to give words starting with that word
<Seveas> one of you, change your nickname :p
<lucas> (but I expected to be highlighted quite a lot today ;p)
<lucasd> so.. the STOPy is a game written in Python using GTK that simulates this game
<twilight> ubuntuser_ba, grazie mille! and congratulations for your italian :)
<lucasd> and, it uses the IRC to the communication
<ogra_ibook> hmm, sounds intresting for edubuntu :)
* Seveas was thinking the same
<MarioMeyer> ogra_ibook, brazillians actually play that a lot in schools
<ogra_ibook> cool !
<MarioMeyer> instead of watching the classes.. lol
<Seveas> hehe
<OgMaciel> hehe
<ubuntuser_ba> in out of school too.. ;)
* OgMaciel apologizes for being abset... boss walked in my cubicle
<Seveas> lucasd, you should either avoid ogra the coming weeks or get that game into Ubuntu ;)
<ogra_ibook> lol
<OgMaciel> lucasd has, as they say in the street, some "mad programming skillz"  ;)
<MarioMeyer> he tought me everything i know about PyGTK
<lucasd> Seveas, we have a plan to include this in Ubuntu, but the project not quite mature yet
<MarioMeyer> lol
<lucasd> hehe
<Seveas> lucasd, then now you have one more reason to complete it
<ubuntuser_ba> hehehehe
<ogra_ibook> yeah
<lucasd> for sure..
<MarioMeyer> :P
<mako> the translations work looks very good
<Seveas> yup
<mako> as does the other loco team work
<ubuntuser_ba> Ubuntu here in Brazil is very serious uf us.. ;)
<Seveas> and the Brazil team is rocking quite hard
<ubuntuser_ba> to us..
<MarioMeyer> i think, together with ubuntuser_ba, lucasd  is the "real active translation team"
<OgMaciel> Seveas right on!
<OgMaciel> MarioMeyer agreed!
* mhz is back
<mako> OgMaciel, MarioMeyer: your feedback is helpful
<Seveas> wb mhz 
<mhz> ;)
<MarioMeyer> :P
* mako is find witwh lucasd as a member
<Kamion> I hope we'll be seeing a few more .br people move into at least MOTU, with this number of people interested
<mako> fine even
<OgMaciel> mako thanks
* mako nods to Kamion 
<Kamion> yeah, also fine with lucasd
<Seveas> lucasd, so join the MOTU :)
<elmo> ack
<OgMaciel> Kamion it is one of my resolutions for 2006!  ;)
* MarioMeyer already added his gpg to revu keyring..
<MarioMeyer> i'll start packaging soon
<ogra_ibook> lucasd, welcome aboard
<Seveas> lucasd, Congrats!
<OgMaciel> lucasd congrats!
<lucasd> thanks very much :)
<jsgotangco> congratulations
<MarioMeyer> congrats lucasd 
<lucasd> all of you =] 
<Seveas> ubuntu-br++ :)
<raphink> :)
<ubuntuser_ba> "Parabns"  Lucas
<mako> lets move on
<Seveas> Brian Burger / Madpilot 
* jsgotangco wants to move to ubuntu-br
<mako> Madpilot
<OgMaciel> jsgotangco hehehe
<Madpilot> I'm here, have caffeine even... :P
<ubuntuser_ba> jsgotangco, you are welcome!
<OgMaciel> jsgotangco we can always use help
<MarioMeyer> jsgotangco, u'll be welcome here :P
<Madpilot> Madpilot's Obligatory Three-Liner... Ubuntu wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Madpilot LP: https://launchpad.net/people/yh728
<Seveas> Madpilot cool, then give us the 3-liner :)
<Madpilot> My name is Brian Burger. I've been using Linux only since May/05, and contributing to the Ubuntu project nearly as long, mostly on the wiki and DocTeam projects - I can't program, but I *can* proofread, edit and document. I've helped rewrite a couple of sections of the Desktop Guide, including the whole CD burning section. I'm also involved in the Canadian LoCo Team & Marketing.
<Madpilot> I try to provide intelligent feedback from a new-to-Linux-but-learning-fast perspective, and in between that there's always typos on the wiki to hunt down and kill!
<dholbach> Madpilot: so you're responsible for those 24679246 wiki mails i get from you per week? :)
<Seveas> Madpilot is also quite active on IRC
<Seveas> active and helpful even :)
<jsgotangco> no that's the other Burger heh
<Madpilot> hmm, yeah, I left the IRC stuff out of the three liner, didn't I?
* OgMaciel has to go now...  congrats to all new members and good luck to remaining candidates
<mako> OgMaciel: thanks for showing up
<ubuntuser_ba> Thansk OgMaciel 
<OgMaciel> mako always a pleasurew
<ubuntuser_ba> *thanks
<Seveas> Madpilot, how active are you on the forums?
<Madpilot> dholbach: that's probably my younger brother, Corey/Burgundavia - he's noisier that me...
<lucasd> OgMaciel, thanks very much :)
<raphink> bye OgMaciel 
<OgMaciel> later guys...
<Madpilot> Seveas: middling active, mostly on the Gnome Desktop & Absolute Beginners sections
<dholbach> Madpilot: you're quite active too :)
<mako> is there anyone from the docteam with a testimonial?
<jsgotangco> +1 he's been very active in doc/wiki
<Seveas> we need more forum - CC meeting interaction, it would help if you join the CC meetings more often when there are forum issues so you can feed them back there
<mhz> As a Moin fan, I can tell Madpilot has been doing a really awsome work on wiki keeping
<Kamion> the wiki being what it is, it's hard to tell exactly which parts of that are your writing style, but I like it anyway
<jsgotangco> he may not be the greatest docbook author out there, but he does help everyday
<Kamion> (-> Madpilot)
<Seveas> jsgotangco, nice
* ogra_ibook absolutely trusts dholbachs wiki judgement ... since dholbach is subscribed to all of it ...
<jsgotangco> another Burger won't hurt
<jsgotangco> :D
<Madpilot> jsgotangco: :P
<raphink> lol
<jsgotangco> dholbach, make that x2 of the mails we receive then
<ogra_ibook> heh
<dholbach> :)
<mako> jsgotangco: nepotism has no place in our project
<jsgotangco> lol
<Seveas> hmm
* mhz would like to have a mad pilot and a burger as a fella memeber
<Kamion> well, the things I've been browsing through on the wiki for five minutes look pretty good
<mako> ditto
<Kamion> and I'm definitely keen to encourage people who are relatively new to free software and are writing documentation
<mhz> I think Madpilot has been very efficient
<jsgotangco> oh he's been here for a very long time
<mako> i also appreciate the irc support work althought that's harder for me to gugage
<jsgotangco> he's been very very visible as well
<Kamion> since the programmers here will know that it's very very hard to try to think yourself back to the point where you *didn't* understand things when writing documentation
<Seveas> mako, he's one of the good guys in #ubuntu 
* mako is happy with membership
<Kamion> <aol>
<elmo> ack
* Seveas actually wants to propose him as op as soon as we need more (with a channel growing this hard, that point will be reached soon)
<jsgotangco> weeee
<mako> is manu around?
<Kamion> Seveas: I certainly wouldn't object if he's willing
* mako nods
<elmo> is the stuff on http://www.manucornet.net/ubuntu/ getting integrated into gnome?
<ogra_ibook> doesnt look like
<mako> alright
<ogra_ibook> elmo, yup
<Kamion> Madpilot: could you please visit https://launchpad.net/people/ubuntumembers/+join to propose yourself for membership of the relevant team?
<mako> nice hackergotchi picture
<Seveas> lllmanulll
<Madpilot> Seveas: let me know, I'm willing to op if needed...
<mako> elmo: no idea
<Madpilot> Kamion: doing that right now
<Seveas> Madpilot, when needed, I'll poke :)
<mako> alright...
<mako> azeem is next?
<ogra_ibook> elmo, its all in already ...
<Kamion> Madpilot: thanks
<dholbach> lllmanulll can't be here - did the meeting time change?
<Seveas> no
<Madpilot> Kamion: done
<mako> i feel like i've approved azeem as a member like 3 times
<elmo> ogra: sweet
<Seveas> there was an error at the wiki though
<raphink> dholbach: yes a few weeks ago
<mako> :)
<Kamion> I thought we'd approved azeem before, but maybe it was only 2/4
* Simira 's dropping off for the dentist
<azeem> Kamion: one time, we timed out
* Kamion pokes at irclogs
<azeem> the other time, I was /away
<dholbach> that's at least, what he said. If he'd been here, I'd been happy to give a testimonial.
<azeem> I never got to even paste my 3-liner
<mako> azeem: we can make it official then
<Seveas> azeem, ah right, you were ok with postponing
<mako> azeem: well hurry up :)
<Seveas> azeem, well, give us the 3-lineer now then :)
<Kamion> oh, you were at a christmas party last time
<azeem> I am Michael Banck, a 28 year old chemistry PhD student from Munich, Germany.  My wiki page is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MichaelBanck and my LaunchPad page at https://launchpad.net/people/mbanck
<azeem> I have been using GNU/Linux for almost ten years and Ubuntu for about one year now (and maintain my parent's desktop since October 2004).  I am a Debian Developer as well. I do various things for Debian but plan to do mainly scientific/chemistry related work for Ubuntu as part of MOTUScience.
<azeem> I have done so for some chemistry packages for a while now, by merging back Ubuntu changes to Debian and making sure the Debian packages build fine on Ubuntu as well. I also cared for multisync in Ubuntu in the past and recently joined lifeless and ajmitch for a more ambitious opensync/multisync effort for Ubuntu/Debian.
<azeem> there.
<elmo> I object
<Seveas> http://www.manucornet.net/ubuntu/JPEG/xmms.png <-- the jdub icon!
<elmo> his name is not Michael Banck, it's Ben Affleck
<azeem> elmo: figures
<ogra_ibook> lol
<jsgotangco> lol
<dholbach> haha :)
* Kamion whacks elmo
<ogra_ibook> elmo, old one :)
<azeem> elmo: I prefer to be called Josh Hartnett these days
* azeem likes Scarlett
<azeem> anyway
<dholbach> Let's call him Scarlett then.
<sivang> elmo: LOL
* azeem feels reduced to his looks
* mako has been watching azeem contribute since nearly day one
<ubuntuser_ba> Friends... i have to go..
<Seveas> ubuntuser_ba, bye
<mako> but is happy to have ben affleck on board
<ubuntuser_ba> I'm hungry
<raphink> ciao ubuntuser_ba 
<jsgotangco> another celebrity won't hurt eh
<sistpoty> if I could vote: make azeem a motu tonight ;)
<ubuntuser_ba> [] 's
* sivang wonders how azeem is still not a member, recalls him from way way back 
<ubuntuser_ba> Thank you... see u soon
<ogra_ibook> sistpoty++
<sivang> and what sistpoty said
<elmo> (more seriously) happy to ack azeem
<Seveas> Kamion, do you want Josh Hartnett on board?
<Seveas> if so, then all of his personalities are welcome :)
<sivang> who's Josh Hartnett ?
<Kamion> yeah, I'm happy with azeem obviously, he's been low-level-around in Ubuntu since pre-warty and I'm glad he's wanting to contribute to MOTU now
<Seveas> cool!
<mako> excellent
<Seveas> muchos welcome, azeem!
<azeem> thanks
<Kamion> (and he's clearly one of the good guys)
<ogra_ibook> welcome azeem !!
<lucasd> azeem, congrats! :)
<sistpoty> congrats azeem
<mhz> azeem: congrats
<mako> i think RaphaelPinson has the first wiki page that has, and needs, a table of contents
<raphink> I'm Raphal Pinson, a 23 years old french guy. (WikiPage : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RaphaelPinson ; LP Profile : http://launchpad.net/people/raphink ). After having used GNU/Linux for about 3 years (mostly Mandrake and Debian), I tried Ubuntu in January 2005, but definitely switched to it in October.
<MarioMeyer> congrats azeem 
<raphink> I've been involved in Ubuntu as a MOTU Helpful for more than 2 months, uploading packages to REVU, merging packages and reviewing packages on REVU. I've got 8 packages in Dapper through REVU. I also work on improving the MOTU documentation on the wiki, and help on IRC channels. I'm admin on #kubuntu-fr and #kubuntu-it. I'm part of the MOTU-Reviewers, Ubuntu French Translators and Kubuntu teams on LP.
<raphink> I share the Ubuntu spirit and distro around me all the time ;) I'd like to become a MOTU to make more helpful contributions to Ubuntu, and just to be a member to feel more involved in the community :)
<raphink> :)
<Kamion> ok, see you in ten minutes when I've read that wiki page
<jsgotangco> lol
<Seveas> since the previous meeting, I've seen raphink being active a lot
<dholbach> raphink ROCKs!
<ogra_ibook> i'm astonished it took you this long to apply for member :)
<raphink> lol
<sistpoty> from raphink's work on motu-side, it's quite a shame he isn't even a member yet
<Kamion> ichthux> I am INEXORABLY reminded of Jesux
<Kamion> sorry :)
* lucas thinks the same as everybody here
<raphink> Kamion: argh no ;)
<raphink> sistpoty: couldn't apply before, hadn't been involved long enough ;)
<mako> Kamion: hm...
<Riddell> raphink has done some great KDE MOTU work including reviewing others packages (much needed) so I fully support his membership
<sistpoty> raphink: that was meant as praise ;)
<raphink> ;)
<Seveas> raphink, please review my package, i need one more advocate :)
<raphink> Seveas: can't advocate yet I'm afraid ;)
<Riddell> Seveas: he can't advocate yet, not a MOTU
<dholbach> raphink didn't need to be told what to do, he just was there and started working in the team. I'm completely happy with him as a member (and MOTU soon) too.
<Seveas> raphink, Riddell that'll change pretty soon I guess ;)
<Kamion> certainly more Kubuntu-based MOTU work seems like a good thing; I haven't followed up all the links to packages but if Riddell's happy with him on that front then that's good enough for me
<raphink> :)
* mako nods to Kamion 
<ogra_ibook> i'm always impressed how he jumps in to help others 
<mako> sounds great
<elmo> I'm happy with raphink for membershipbased on what I've seen of his packaging
<raphink> :D
<Kamion> raphink: could you please visit https://launchpad.net/people/ubuntumembers/+join to propose yourself for membership of the relevant team?
<mako> patrick davies?
<raphink> sure :)
<raphink> with pleasure :)
<Seveas> raphink, welcome on board :)
<raphink> thank you guys :)
<raphink> ty Seveas :)
<lucasd> raphink, congratis! :] 
<lucasd> *congrats
<MarioMeyer> congrats raphink 
<raphink> I'm pleased to be part of such a great community :)
<sistpoty> congrats raphink
<dholbach> raphink: i'm glad you're in the team. :-)
<ogra_ibook> we are happy to have you around
<Kamion> Brian Shumate?
<raphink> :)
<jsgotangco> bshumate, ping
<bshumate> hi
<Kamion> I have a testimonial for Brian from mdke, if he's here
<bshumate> Greetings everyone! My name is Brian Shumate; I'm a 32 year-old IT guy, with about two decades of computing experience, and half of that in a professional capacity as a IT Consultant, System Administrator, and Technologist. 
<bshumate> I am also an Artist, a father of 2 wonderful children, and the husband of a charming wife.  I've used GNU/Linux now for about twelve years now, and Ubuntu is what prompted me to show my appreciation by giving back to the FLOSS world! :-)
<bshumate> In the last two months+ I have been active almost exclusively in the Documentation Team, having contributed eight patches, and authored five Wiki pages.  I've provided some help in the #ubuntu IRC channel for the past two months as well. I am also in the final stages of preparing an Art Project which I sincerely hope will garner Ubuntu plenty of positive free press in the coming months! 
<mhz> raphink: yahoo!
<raphink> mhz: :)
<bshumate> In the future, I plan to author more Wiki pages, and guides for those new to Ubuntu, and assist the Documentation Team in any capacity required. I hope to also conclude the writing of an Ubuntu-related book that I have in progress at present. ;-) 
<Kamion> 07:54 <mdke> BrianShumate (bshumate) - has been contributing regularly to the documentation team for the last couple of months and in that time has produced more documentation than anyone else. He has contributed several passages to the serverguide for dapper, and several extremely high class wiki pages, mainly about security. He is a incredibly valuable member of the doc team.
<Seveas> security documentation++
<mako> nice
<jsgotangco> OpenSSL wiki page
* Seveas feeds ubotu these pages
<Madpilot> bshumate's wiki pages are excellent - the Bastille Linux one & Strong Passwords ones especially.
<Seveas> i'm browsing through a few of them, they are great
<mako> excellent work
* Kamion goes off to read the openssh ones
<mako> and mdke's recommendation is a strong point as well
<Seveas> AllowUsers jhendrix svaughan
<Seveas> DenyUsers wgates sballmer
<Seveas> LOL!
* bshumate enjoys helping a truly noble cause
<bshumate> Seveas: ;-)
<Kamion> bshumate: in the modern world you probably want PubkeyAuthentication rather than RSAAuthentication - the latter's protocol 1 only
<Kamion> (reading the server guide)
<bshumate> Kamion: good point there! I'll adjust it.
<sivang> Seveas: ubotu ?
<Seveas> sivang, the resident cluebot in #ubuntu
<sivang> Seveas: ah nice
<Kamion> I disagree with you about PermitRootLogin, but that's a long-standing argument we certainly aren't going to resolve here. :)
<bshumate> Kamion: i personally use "without-password" ;-)
<Kamion> also X11Forwarding is not a risk to the server, it's a risk to the client
<ogra_ibook> and disabling it would break ltsp :)
<Kamion> ogra_ibook: nobody's talking about the defaults
<ogra_ibook> i know
<Kamion> anyway, while I have some quibbles with the details, on the whole it's very clear and good documentation
<sivang> Kamion: how so?
<Kamion> so yeah, I'm fine with bshumate for membership based on what I'm seeing. More of the same would rock. :-)
<Kamion> sivang: aboe
<Kamion> above
* mako nods
<sivang> eh
<mako> same from me
<mako> the docs i've looked through look great
<Kamion> bshumate: oh, also, disabling password prompts can also involve disabling keyboard-interactive auth
* Seveas nods along
<Seveas> great documentation
<mhz> Madpilot: so, I never got the part were you were accepted but ogra told me you were, so Congrats!!!
<Kamion> (ChallengeResponseAuthentication no)
<Madpilot> mhz: thanks!
<bshumate> Kamion: noted. I'll spruce it up accordingly. ;-)
<Kamion> bshumate: yeah, without-password is pretty reasonable and useful since you can configure sshd to give you an audit trail of the public key used to log in as root
<Kamion> which can be useful on boxes with multiple admins
<mako> elmo: ?
<Kamion> (though you can do similar things with sudo of course)
<elmo> ack
<mako> that's it for my list
<Seveas> ok, cool
<Seveas> welcome aboard bshumate!
<mako> anyone else here have other business for the council?
<jsgotangco> weeee
<lucasd> bshumate, congratulations! :)
<Seveas> (and please keep on writing such good documentation)
<bshumate> Thanks everyone!
<mako> speak now or hold your peace for 2 weeks
<ogra_ibook> congrats bshumate 
<MarioMeyer> congrats bshumate 
<twilight> bshumate, congratulations!
<Kamion> bshumate: thanks!
<mako> going once!
<MarioMeyer> meeting ending early :P
<mako> going twice!
<MarioMeyer> not usual
<bshumate> Congrats to all the new members! :-)
<mako> *gavel*
<raphink> :)
<raphink> thanks bshumate 
<Kamion> hang on
<Kamion> I have one thing
<mako> damnit
<dholbach> grats!
<mako> :)
<jsgotangco> lol
<Seveas> I'm gonna make dinner, will write the summary later
<mako> Kamion: ok
<Madpilot> yeah, congrats to all, and thanks!
<mhz> bshumate: google!!!
<Seveas> ahm Kamion has to spoil it :p 
<Kamion> we have some, er, notable people on the lp proposed members list
<bshumate> mhz: hmm?
<mako> Kamion: ahh.. good point
<MarioMeyer> just 1 thing.. a brazillian member wants to buy kubuntu-br.org and start using it.. does the CC have anything agains it?
<Kamion> Jane Weideman, Jeff Waugh
<mako> ah,
<Kamion> anyone object to me just setting those to approved?
<mhz> bshumate: congrats! it's just that i told raphink 'yahoo' :D
<elmo> no
<dholbach> Kamion: we should interrogate both of them. :-)
<mako> jeff and jane sound fine
<Seveas> dholbach, agreed
<Kamion> I think it's pretty obvious they've been making sustained and significant contributions :-)
<ogra_ibook> heh
<Seveas> Kamion, someone should prune that list too
<Riddell> MarioMeyer: ideally they'd get canonical to buy it
<mako> i think we can bend the rules for those two :)
<Seveas> I've been poking them a few months ago
<bshumate> mhz: ahh. thanks! :-)
* mhz must leave now
<mako> Kamion: are you approving folks?
<mhz> bye all
<mako> Kamion: in lp?
<Kamion> mako: yeah, I think I've done everyone approved this meeting
<mhz> Congrats to everyone in
<Riddell> MarioMeyer: who wants to buy it and for what purpose?
<Kamion> if I've missed anyone as of now, please let me know
<twilight> bye mhz, thank you
<mako> Kamion: cool
<MarioMeyer> it's a new member..
<mako> alright then
<mako> i should find my way to work
<Seveas> have fun
<MarioMeyer> he says he uses kubuntu and havend seen any kubuntu work in the brazillian group
<jsgotangco> ok good night i gotta sleep
<raphink> don't get lost mako 
<raphink> ;)
<mako> i might as well have lunch first
<raphink> "night jsgotangco 
<mako> one of those days :)
<Seveas> see you all in 2 weeks
<MarioMeyer> i just thought i should say something before he buys it
<raphink> hehe
<jsgotangco> errr what time?
<Seveas> jan 24
<mako> lets do it a bit later
<Kamion> Riddell: can I get you to discuss this with MarioMeyer offline, and pass him on to silbs or whoever if need be?
<Riddell> MarioMeyer: sounds great but please send him my way, jriddell@ubuntu.com or IRC
<mako> we've beenhaviing morning meetings 
<Riddell> Kamion: yep
<Seveas> mako, propose a time :)
<mako> 21UTC?
<mako> is that as late as we can go for the UKer's?
<mako> oh wait
<Seveas> 21UTC is fine to me, that's 21:00 UK
<mako> the GPLv3 meetiing is that day
<mako> let me looks
<Seveas> ah
<MarioMeyer> ok Kamion 
<mako> no it's not
<MarioMeyer> ok Riddell 
<Seveas> so, 24 jan 21:00 UTC?
<mako> that time should be fine
<mako> yes
<Seveas> OK, then goodbye all :)
<raphink> bye Seveas 
<Kamion> that's fine
<Kamion> see you next fortnight
<Madpilot> later, all
<bshumate> good day all!
<dholbach> later
<raphink> argh just a bit too late jpatrick 
<raphink> :s
<raphink> it just finished :s
<Simira> gluffgluff
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-01-08
<dholbach> good morning
<waxfactor2nd> hi
<waxfactor2nd> help
<waxfactor2nd> <hr>
<waxfactor2nd>  			 		 		 		 		hi ive just installed the nvidia driver via automatix but now i only can choose 640*480 in the screen resolution menu. this is a 1280*1024 screen so it is very anoying. how can i make it back to 1280*1024. it is a 6600gt and im running edgy
<waxfactor2nd> hi can anyone help
<Hobbsee> waxfactor2nd: try #ubuntu
<Hobbsee> waxfactor2nd: this isnt the support channel
<waxfactor2nd> sry
<freeflying> @schedule Shanghai
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Asia/Shanghai: 09 Jan 06:00: Kubuntu Developers | 09 Jan 23:00: LoCo Team | 10 Jan 00:00: Forum Council | 10 Jan 05:00: Community Council | 10 Jan 20:00: Edubuntu | 12 Jan 05:00: Ubuntu Development Team
<raphink> @schedule Paris
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Paris: 08 Jan 23:00: Kubuntu Developers | 09 Jan 16:00: LoCo Team | 09 Jan 17:00: Forum Council | 09 Jan 22:00: Community Council | 10 Jan 13:00: Edubuntu | 11 Jan 22:00: Ubuntu Development Team
<ryanakca> @schedule toronto
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Toronto: 08 Jan 17:00: Kubuntu Developers | 09 Jan 10:00: LoCo Team | 09 Jan 11:00: Forum Council | 09 Jan 16:00: Community Council | 10 Jan 07:00: Edubuntu | 11 Jan 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Current meeting: Kubuntu Developers | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 09 Jan 15:00 UTC: LoCo Team | 09 Jan 16:00 UTC: Forum Council | 09 Jan 21:00 UTC: Community Council | 10 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 11 Jan 21:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team
<toma> Hobbsee: !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
<raphink> hop
<Riddell> good morning Friends
<Tonio_> hi everyone
<toma> hi all
<toma> hi Tonio_
<raphink> hi Riddell
<Zerlinna> hello all
<mhb> hi everyone
<Jucato> hi --all
<fabo> hi all
* Lure is Luka Renko
<Riddell> yes, lets do names, we have some new people
<Hobbsee> hey toma!
<raphink> who am I
<Hobbsee> argh...phone was not on silent...
<fdoving> hi.
<kwwii> howdy guys and girls
* Riddell is Jonathan Riddell
* mhb is Martin Bhm
* toma is Tom Albers
* seaLne is Kenny Duffus
<Hobbsee> hey Riddell
* Zerlinna is Mirjam Wckerlin
* fdoving is Frode M. Dving
* Hobbsee cheers for laptops
* raphink is Raphal Pinson
<Hobbsee> (yay for ircing from bed :P )
* kwwii is Kenneth Wimer
* Hobbsee is Sarah Hobbs
* Jucato is Juan Carlos Torres
* allee is Achim Bohnet
* manchicken is Michael Stemle
* sebas is Sebastian Ku:gler
* fabo is Fathi Boudra
<toma> wow, what a people
<sebas> Impressive.
* jpiccolo Jesse Piccolo
<Lure> kubuntu team is growing - great!
* Tonio_ is Anthony Mercatante
* raphink hugs Tonio_
<Riddell> I think by the number of people we have contributing now, 2007 is going to be a great year for Kubuntu
<Hobbsee> Riddell: can we start from the bottom of our agenda?
<Hobbsee> Riddell: indeed :)
<jpiccolo> did herd1 get upgraded to a new version?
<toma> Hobbsee: no
<Riddell> Hobbsee: we could start with memberships
* kwwii hugs all the french guys :p
<Hobbsee> oh yeah
<Hobbsee> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kubuntu/Meetings
* raphink hugs kwwii
<toma> before i vote on others, let others vote on me
<Hobbsee> even better idea
<Tonio_> kwwii: hehe
<Hobbsee> jpiccolo: no
<raphink> that's a guess toma
<Riddell> ok, we'll do toma first
<raphink> :)
<Tonio_> yup
<toma> raphink: yep ;-)
<Riddell> toma: care to introduce your item?
<ryanakca> back
* ryanakca is Ryan Kavanagh :)
<toma> In may we started the kubuntu council. You asked me to take a seat for KDE. I accepted that, but made the remark that it was for half a year instead of a year.
<toma> So now is the question up, do I stay in the council or not.
<toma> I can not say I've done a lot for kubuntu the last couple months, but i've been around a lot and that's what Riddell asked me to do for that seat.
<toma> I don't expect any changes in my activities, so if you think that's fine, I'm happy to stay for the remaining months. But i can also understand if you want to swap with someone else, there are other great kde people in the channel regulary.... Who also do more for Kubuntu then I do at this moment.
<toma> Normally I would now leave this room so you can discuss it, but that does not make any sense....
<Owdgit> lets get on with meeting
<Tonio_> toma: first point is : what is your wish about that ?
<Hobbsee> Owdgit: ....people are thinking and reading
<Riddell> I can't remember what we said the full term would be for kubuntu council people
<toma> 1 year
<Hobbsee> 12 months
<toma> Tonio_: ?
<Tonio_> toma: yes ? it is not obvious that you would like to continue :)
<raphink> toma: do you wish to stay or give the responsability to someone else?
<Hobbsee> who's on the kcc at the moment, sorry?  /me looks on LP
<toma> Tonio_: well, the job description is not that clear, so I'm not so sure i'm doing The Right Thing, or that you expect more from me
<Riddell> Hobbsee: https://launchpad.net/~kubuntu-council/+members
<Hobbsee> found it :)
<Riddell> which says it started in August, but that can't be right
<Owdgit> sorry thought this was a ubuntu meeting
<Hobbsee> Riddell: yes...we got the LP team a lot later
<manchicken> (where's the bleedin' sound-track to this meeting?)
<raphink> Hobbsee: i think it hasn't changed since it was founded
<Tonio_> toma: I don't expect more at all
<Hobbsee> raphink: the team, or the job descriptoin?
<raphink> Owdgit: this is a kubuntu meeting
<toma> Tonio_: so if I'm not doing enough, i'm happy if someone else takes my seat
<raphink> Hobbsee: the team
<toma> Tonio_: ok
<Hobbsee> ah, yes
<Tonio_> toma: I just would like to know if you'd be happy to continue, or if you think someone else would be better to rotate the positions :)
<Lure> toma: you are fine - most of kcc work was anyhow membership (which were not that many anyhow)
<Tonio_> toma: there is nothing hidden in that question
<Lure> toma: I would suggest that we approve you for another 6 month and then we can reshuffle whole kcc
<toma> Tonio_: I would love to stay, unless you expect more than what I do now.
<Owdgit> toma: looks like you are out!
<Tonio_> Lure: that's exactly my feeling
<raphink> good idea Lure
<kwwii> I agree as well
<Riddell> Owdgit: please be quiet
<Tonio_> toma: no you've done it, been there everytime, that's all we expect I think
* Hobbsee is happy with toma staying on the team, but only if he wants to
<raphink> same here
<Hobbsee> of course, the question of "who would want to be on this team" is a good one
<raphink> I'm happy to keep toma if he wants to
<Riddell> if we started the kubuntu council in May I propose we keep toma on until may and review the council membership then
<allee> toma++
<Owdgit> Riddell: Why?
<Riddell> toma: are you happy with that?
<Tonio_> +1 for me
<Hobbsee> Owdgit: because you're disrupting the meeting
<freeflying> toma: +1
<somerville32> +1
<raphink> Owdgit: because this meeting is supposed to be constructive
<sebas> toma++
<toma> oki! thanks guys
<fdoving> toma++
<Hobbsee> Riddell: the only other person, currently, who i'd think for being on the kcc is Lure, but i dont know how he feels on such things
<raphink> I agree with Hobbsee too
<Riddell> Hobbsee: I think we should save him for May :)
<Tonio_> Hobbsee: yup, he'd be an ideal candidate in May
<Hobbsee> that, and that i think that getting ideas into kubuntu is pretty easy, you dont have to be on the kcc to do it.
<Hobbsee> :)
<raphink> :)
<Riddell> of course not, the council is just some people we trust to make good decisions when we have something that needs a vote
<Tonio_> Hobbsee: yup the kcc is only there to take debating decisions
<Lure> Hobbsee: thanks for support, but no hurry ;-)
<Tonio_> s/take/make (english horrible today sorry)
<Hobbsee> Riddell: exactly
<Riddell> let's move on to memberships
<ryanakca> :)
<Riddell> Zerlinna: care to go first?
<Hobbsee> Tonio_: most of us will understand horrible english as opposed to french :P
<Zerlinna> Riddell: ok :)
<Zerlinna> Riddell: should I just paste my introduction?
<Riddell> Zerlinna: please do
<Zerlinna> My name is Mirjam Wckerlin and I'm swiss living Germany. I'm the team contact for the growing German Kubuntu Community at www.kubuntu-de.net. I presented Kubuntu at events (like LinuxTag 2006 in Germany) and did various translations like the translation of UWN (from issue 24) into German, or the French translation of the official Kubuntu Flyer. I also help in the german forum and write a blog with howtos and news about kubuntu since
<Zerlinna> October 2005. In the future, I plan to apply with the German Kubuntu Community as an official loco-team, doing more events and translations, help people in getting involved and support women in linux as a member of Ubuntu Women.
<Zerlinna> my wiki page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MirjamWaeckerlin and launchpad: https://launchpad.net/~waeckerlin
* Hobbsee argh...i knew i was going to do something before this meeting, like look over this wiki page
<Riddell> it's often surprising how much of a community we have over in #kubuntu-de
<kwwii> considering all the problems it really is amazing
<Tonio_> Riddell: yeah, kde may help on that point :)
<fdoving> .de likes kde :)
<Riddell> and it's great to have someone from there around in #kubuntu-devel to keep us in contact
<Zerlinna> Riddell: the forums at kubuntu-de.net has over 5000 registered useres, and we have a team of 20 very active members (growing)
<Hobbsee> wow
<Riddell> very impressive
<sebas> Wow.
<sebas> Ow, I know half of them ;-)
<raphink> haha
<Riddell> well, I've met Zerlinna, anyone else have questions?
<ryanakca> nice, lol
<raphink> I'm happy with Zerlinna's work
<sebas> I've briefly met her at Linuxtag, I think
<kwwii> I support Zerlinna as well
* allee knows zerlinna's work too
<raphink> she's a lively supporter of Kubuntu and open-source in general
<raphink> :)
<Zerlinna> sebas: you did :)
<Lure> Zerlinna has very useful kubuntu oriented blog - would be nice to have it on Planet Ubuntu (when she become member)
<sebas> Right, at the exit?
<Tonio_> same for me, I had the pleasure to meet you at linuxtag and know your work
<Hobbsee> Zerlinna: what were some of the challenges to get your mother switched to kubuntu, and how did you overcome them?
<Lure> not many kobuntu blog entries there
<Zerlinna> Hobbsee: the biggest challenge was to convice my dad that she wouldn't have problems with it
<Hobbsee> oh yeah.  blog on planet.  *adds to todo*
<Hobbsee> Zerlinna: interesting
<sebas> Are Ubuntu Member entitled to be aggregated via planet.ubuntu or isn't that formalised?
<Riddell> sebas: they are yes
<Riddell> the planet config is held in bzr that members can write to
<sebas> Then why is planet.ubuntu more or less completely not planet.kubuntu?
<kwwii> hehe
<Zerlinna> Hobbsee: I just conviced them by installing ichthux and promsising them that I would reinstall windows if they didn't like it :)
<Riddell> Zerlinna get a +1 from me for great community leadership
<allee> Zerlinna++
* sebas adds another 1.0223
<Hobbsee> Zerlinna: ahhh....smart.  scary for the idea of promising to reinstall windows though...
<kwwii> sebas: why does kubuntu.de have so much support and no loco team? (we'll get the that later)
<Tonio_> +1 for me too
<toma> Zerlinna: What's the secret plan to get more get people involved?
* Hobbsee +1.00025
<sebas> toma: KDE4 :P
<raphink> haha
<raphink> sebas: when is that?
<Tonio_> sebas: ;)
* raphink wistles
<toma> Sebas: Glad you did not say kde4.0 ;-)
<manchicken> My wife switched to kubuntu.
<Hobbsee> speaking of kde4...the guides for new devs are great, just need more added to them :)
<manchicken> Once you get them over the initial "mysteriousness" of trying another operating system, it's pretty easy.
<ryanakca> Hobbsee: have a link?
<raphink> the least used to windows they are, the easiest to switch to linux manchicken
<Hobbsee> ryanakca: to my blog?  developernew.kde.org
<Tonio_> manchicken: yeah it was the same problem with my gf
* ryanakca wonders if he'd find them usefull
<manchicken> Hobbsee: Except that Qt designer for Qt4 doesn't import .glade files, and there's no info anywhere on how to do that.
<Riddell> I think that's a positive vote for Zerlinna, congratulations
<Hobbsee> manchicken: ah
<Tonio_> once she admitted not only windows was able to run the computer, everything was very easy
<allee> Zerlinna: congrats
<fdoving> congrats zerlinna. :)
<Zerlinna> thank you  :D
<Riddell> let's not get too far off topic
<raphink> welcome on board, Zerlinna
<Tonio_> Zerlinna: welcome aboard
* Zerlinna is very happy :D
<manchicken> Yay Zerlinna!
<Hobbsee> yay Zerlinna :)
<Riddell> ryanakca: you're up next
<Hobbsee> Riddell: can we do loco teams, or is that up to the CC?
<mhb> Zerlinna: congrats
<ryanakca> ooh, great :)
<Lure> Zerlinna: congrat - and please add your blog to Planet Ubuntu
<Tonio_> Hobbsee: CC
<Hobbsee> right
<ryanakca> btw, congrats Zerlinna
<freeflying> Zerlinna: congrats
<ryanakca> My name is Ryan Kavanagh and I'm a canadian student. I'm a member of QA, founded the Classroom along with NUN, and am an active teacher. I have also done some translation into french on Rosetta, helped install kubuntu on some computers and the owners out with any difficulties they had. I have a couple packages uploaded, and am currently working on one. I would like to package some more KDE apps, maybe help with a bit of programming (I'm
<ryanakca> learning python). I would like to continue bug triaging and running Classroom.
<ryanakca> My Wiki page is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RyanKavanagh and my launchpad page is https://launchpad.net/~ryanakca
<Zerlinna> Lure I'll love to :)
<Riddell> Hobbsee: we can do whatever we want, it just depends on who you want to listen
<Hobbsee> Riddell: hehe, right
<Tonio_> Riddell: ah ?
<Riddell> oh la la, another francophone
<ryanakca> Riddell: oui :)
<Hobbsee> Riddell: this one plays the bagpipes though :P
<Tonio_> ryanakca: trs bonne nouvelle ca :)
<manchicken> OOH!!  GPG tutorials are much needed.
<Tonio_> Riddell: we should think about switching the official language of #kubuntu-devel
<ryanakca> Riddell: yes, http://rkavanagh.homelinux.org/~ryan/Creatively_Blocked-rec1.ogg
<toma> ryanakca: can you tell a bit about ubuntu ca?
<ryanakca> Tonio_: lol
<manchicken> I love the little doccies.
<mhb> ryanakca: how many is a couple (packages)?
<raphink> ryanakca: that's a pretty good page :)
<toma> qa
<ryanakca> raphink: ty
<raphink> mhb: I was told a couple is two
<raphink> mhb: but so many things about changing aboug relationships it seems
<Hobbsee> raphink: a couple is two, yes.
<Hobbsee> a few is three or more
<manchicken> ryanakca: GnuPG is a little tricky for folks who have never used encryption before.  My wife and I had a rough time setting it up in kopete.  More documentation would have been quite nice.  I'm glad to see someone's doing it.
<ryanakca> toma: Ubuntu Ca recently became a LoCo team. They often meet at LinuxCaffe in Toronto (since, iirc, most members are in Toronto). However, since I live 3 hours away, I can't attend...
<ryanakca> We also answer questions on out mailing list
<mhb> raphink: I wanted to know the exact number, but if you say 2
<ryanakca> manchicken: Oooh? never knew that you could use GPG in kopete...
<fdoving> toma: qa? https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-qa
<raphink> yes you can ryanakca
<toma> ryanakca: ok, want to know more, but thats ot ;-)
<toma> fdoving: thnaks
<manchicken> ryanakca: Yeah.  My wife and I use it when I'm in the office and we need to discuss banking things.
<manchicken> ryanakca: It's a beautiful thing.
<ryanakca> nice
<manchicken> (which reminds me, I have to reimport her keys for her since the move from SuSE to kubuntu...)
<ryanakca> https://launchpad.net/~ryanakca/+packages
<raphink> so you have 3 packages
<Riddell> ryanakca: interesting to see launchpad answers in use there, how well answered are queries on it?
<raphink> how do you choose the packages you made?
<raphink> s/made/make/
<fabo> ryanakca: Try to merge Keep <- could you be more verbose ? :)
<ryanakca> Riddell: queries on...
<raphink> ryanakca: how do you choose the packages you make?
<Lure> ryanakca packaged eqonomize which I use ;-)
<fdoving> Riddell: not much kubuntu-specific questions.. i try to keep up with it too. :)
<ryanakca> raphink: I choose stuff that I find would be usefull, eqonomize so that I can manage my money, or try to,
<kwwii> for my part, I'll say that ryanakca has been active and helpful with art-related stuff
<raphink> I see that you've been keeping your packages up-to-date ryanakca
<raphink> ryanakca: do you also work with Debian for that?
<Riddell> ryanakca: I mean does it get much use in general, and do questions usually get answered?
<ryanakca> gnome-clipboard-daemon because people were complaining about not being able to keep clipboard stuff after they close your app (maybe it was fixed and it was just an old page, dunno), etc
<ryanakca> raphink: I worked with djpig for doc-linux-html (he's in charge of the package for debian)
<raphink> nice
<ryanakca> Riddell: sorry, not sure I understand what you mean... the support requests, like https://answers.launchpad.net/~ryanakca/+tickets ?
<Riddell> ryanakca: yes
<ryanakca> Riddell: yes, they are used, not as much as forums or irc, but still used. From what I see, 8 questions / requests were created today, and yes, most get answered :) https://answers.launchpad.net/ubuntu
<Riddell> groovy
<ryanakca> :D
<Tonio_> interesting
<Riddell> ryanakca gets a +1 from me
<raphink> +1 from me too
<raphink> keep up the good work
<allee> +1 too
<ryanakca> raphink: will do
<pinheiro> heya
<toma> +1
<Hobbsee> +1
<Tonio_> +1 for me, based on good malone activity and qa in general
<kwwii> +1
<Zerlinna> +1
<Hobbsee> ryanakca: will the idea pool ever get anywhere?
<ryanakca> Hobbsee: yes, I added a footnote just for you, just a sec, I'll paste it :)
<Riddell> welcome to membership ryanakca
<Tonio_> welcome aboard ryanakca
<mhb> congratulations ryanakca
<fdoving> congrats ryanakca :)
* Hobbsee didnt ask questions earlier, given all the others being thrown at him :P
<Riddell> probably the youngest member we have
<raphink> well done ryanakca
<manchicken> w00t for ryanakca!
<Lure> ryanakca: congrats!
<allee> ryanakca congrats
<Hobbsee> ooh, it grew
<freeflying> ryanakca: congrats
<ryanakca> IdeaPool: From what I've been told, the idea pool is looked at relatively frequently. Most things in canonical are either what Canonical Mark wants and can pay for or what volunteers are willing to do. However, the saying "talk is cheap" can also be applied to adding something to a wiki. If suggestions aren't backed up with action, it is unlikely that they will be implemented. If someone has a really good idea that canonical would love or if
<ryanakca> someone willing to implement something sees something great there, it might be implemented. ([WWW]  http://www.ubuntu.com/developers/bounties references IdeaPool)
<fabo> ryanakca: congrats !
<ryanakca> thanks!
<Zerlinna> felicitations ryanakca ;)
<kwwii> now he'll give us even more trouble about artwork!
<kwwii> :p
<ryanakca> merci Zerlinna
<ryanakca> kwwii: lol, when does work on artwork start again? or has it already?
<Zerlinna> kwwii: isn't that your problem? :P
<toma> o and fdoving and nixternal: congrats on your svn kde accounts today !
<Hobbsee> Riddell: jpatrick
<nixternal> oh shot
<kwwii> ryanakca: nobody knows
<ryanakca> Riddell: I think I am :)
<nixternal> thanks toma
<raphink> jpatrick is surely the youngest :)
<nixternal> i totally forgot about the meeting :(
<fdoving> toma: thanks, again :)
* manchicken has never gotten around to using his kde svn account....
<Hobbsee> nixternal: *grin* - you're only 35 min late, dont worry :P
<kwwii> nixternal: lazy americans
<ryanakca> nixternal: lol
<Riddell> anyone else wanting to be considered for membership today?
<sebas> Uuh, I
<raphink> hi nixternal :)
<nixternal> hiya
* Hobbsee appeared to get commit rights to kde-extras on debian today, too.
<nixternal> hahaha kwwii
<allee> and congrats to Hobbsee and Tonio_ being now able to commit to kde-extras repo ;)
<Hobbsee> :)
<sebas> Didn't prepare anything, but I'm flexible :)
<toma> sebas: go fot it
<manchicken> Nice.
<Riddell> sebas: do you have a wiki page?
<sebas> Sure.
<kwwii> sebas is my hero
<manchicken> I've only got small kopete commits there ^_^
<Tonio_> allee: ah ? :) I haven't been there for a month, we need to talk about that, I'm interested :)
<manchicken> I ported the SMS plugin and a mod to the meta-contacts for KDE/Qt4.
<manchicken> But that was a few months ago.
<allee> Tonio_: sure!
<sebas> I didn't add anything substantial on the wiki, or Launchpad other than that I'm working on guidance. I've got a website + blog at http://vizzzion.org though.
<Riddell> sebas: what's your launchpad user name?
<sebas> Working on Kubuntu since I ran into Riddell at FOSDEM three or so years ago.
<Hobbsee> "bang...splat"
<sebas> https://launchpad.net/~sebas-kde
<fabo> half of kubuntu.de knows sebas ;)
<Riddell> ooh, that was Le Roi, lots of quaffing there
<nixternal> sebas: you aren't a member?
<sebas> I'm not a member, right.
<seaLne> nixternal: yeah thats what i thought :)
<nixternal> holy smokes i did not know that
<nixternal> i figured you were
<sebas> I've got to admit that I do not join every meeting, only when time permits.
<sebas> And I'm open for questions
<nixternal> just like ryanakca and Zerlinna, i thought they were members already as well
<sebas> Riddell: Right, when you told me that you were doing Kubuntu :-)
<Jucato> yeah me too... always presumed they were :)
<nixternal> man i am so out of touch :)
<Zerlinna> lol nixternal
<nixternal> congrats Zerlinna btw on your membership!
<manchicken> heh
<toma> i can add that sebas is a great and respected member of KDE and I think he is a great guy.
<Riddell> I know sebas well, I don't really have any questions
<Zerlinna> nixternal: thanks :)
<nixternal> didn't sebas take a punch as well for the love of Kubuntu at the Paris sprint?
<nixternal> :)
<Riddell> I suspect most people know sebas well
<kwwii> he saved my life!!!!
<nixternal> see
<allee> yes
<nixternal> +1000000
<Riddell> nixternal: no, he took a kick in the face
<nixternal> ;p
<Tonio_> Riddell: sure, no question for me
<pinheiro> sebas rules
<nixternal> haha Riddell
<sebas> Wow :o
<Tonio_> he has been so helpfull till now..........
* sebas blushes
<nixternal> i dont' think i can vote though, but i did :)
<Riddell> so +1 for saving the entire kubuntu development team from Paris race riots
<toma> sebas: +1, but you need to fill the wiki ;-)
<fabo> sebas++
<allee> +1
<nixternal> hahaha
<Hobbsee> +1
<kwwii> but make him shave if he wants to join
<Tonio_> sebas: obviously +1 for me
<raphink> +1
<Hobbsee> sebas: protect us in spain too please :P
<nixternal> congrats sebas!!!
<Tonio_> sebas: membership is better than a kick in the face !
<nixternal> lol
* Tonio_ hides
<Riddell> congratulations sebas
<allee> sebas: please sign CoC
<raphink> Tonio_: I'm going to write that somewhere
<nixternal> who's next?
<Riddell> anyone else going for membership?
<sebas> Merci (to use the new official language :P)
<nixternal> Riddell: are you a member?
<mhb> congratulations sebas
<sebas> allee: ok
<nixternal> +1 Riddell
<nixternal> ;p
<Zerlinna> sebas trs bien ;)
<raphink> long time without a post on my blog, your sentence migth be a good subject Tonio_
<Tonio_> sebas: bienvenue  bord !
<sebas> toma: will do.
<Riddell> nixternal: I was the first ubuntu member
<manchicken> heh
<nixternal> hehe
<manchicken> Very nice
<toma> sebas: congrats
<sebas> C'est une honoire (or something)
<manchicken> heh
<Tonio_> sebas: honneur
<raphink> c'est un plaisir de t'accueillir parmi nous sebas
<Tonio_> sebas: that's a good start
<toma> anyone else?
<allee> congrats sebas
<Riddell> let's get on with the agenda then
<Tonio_> yup
<manchicken> Righto.
<Riddell> we have quite a few items, so stay focused folks
<Riddell> Hobbsee: did you want to do it in reverse or something?
<Hobbsee> Riddell: yes, so my stuff's when i'm a little more awake
<Riddell> kwwii: ready with your item?
<kwwii> yepp
<Riddell> kwwii: tell us about it
<kwwii> basically, I would like to know what is keeping the de team from going loco
<kwwii> it seems that the answer seems to be "why not do it on ubuntu.de"
<nixternal> from going crazy?
<kwwii> hehe
<kwwii> LoCo
<nixternal> isn't there a DE LoCo already?
<kwwii> a mailing list was denied as well
<Riddell> I list any sane kubuntu loco group on kubuntu.org/support.php
<fdoving> nixternal: kubuntu LoCo i belive?
<nixternal> seeing as I am somehow an admin for the LoCo Enthusiasts group (thanks jono)
<Zerlinna> Riddell: true, but then we're not considerated as an "official" team
<nixternal> hrmm, Chicago LoCo is an Ubuntu team, but we promote all of the *buntus
<Zerlinna> Riddell: e.g. for the shipping
<Riddell> and so far that's been fine, most kubuntu local groups are happy working with various levels of indepencence from the ubuntu group, but usually not much
<kwwii> well, the domain is being denied them (Julius says it is Jono saying no because it is not official)
<kwwii> so how can we make it official?
<Riddell> kwwii: they domain is being transfered, the sysadmin did the icann thing today
<kwwii> ahhhh...cool :-)
<nixternal> jono has to make it official
<Riddell> so we'll get that soon (fingers crossed)
<kwwii> then I will shut up
<nixternal> for LoCo stuff
<nixternal> well there you go :)
<Riddell> but germany clearly has a separate kubuntu group from the ubuntu one, and I think it's worth having that clarified to stop stuff like the kubuntu-de.org domain squatting
<kwwii> when I talked to Julius today we got into a bit of a fight about it
<kwwii> ie. I pissed him off
<kwwii> then again, who can't I piss off?
<Zerlinna> Riddell: I think it would be cool to have a real official kubuntu-team
<Riddell> as I said earlier, we can declaire it at this meeting, but that won't make anybody listen who doesn't already care
<kwwii> cool, we'll see what happens...if not I'll bring it up again :-)
<Riddell> so it really needs to go to the ubuntu community council
<Riddell> I'd certainly support having kubuntu-de as an official loco group
<Lure> Riddell: we should ask Ubuntu CC if KCC can approve Kubuntu LoCo's
<Riddell> I wonder when the next community council meeting is
<Lure> Riddell: that would only make sense
<Hobbsee> Lure: ubuntu CC is currently up in the air - doesnt have people on it
<Zerlinna> Riddell: the problem begins already with the mailing-list.. I made a request for a kubuntu-de@lists.ubuntu.com
<Hobbsee> Riddell: when we were going to meet - tomorrow
<gnomefreak> Riddell: tomorrow i think
<Riddell> ooh, it's tomorrow
<Zerlinna> Riddell: and the answer was about "why don't you stick with ubuntu-de"
<Riddell> Zerlinna: that is interesting, and something we should fix
<toma> yes
<fdoving> Zerlinna: and you asked why don't you mix kubuntu-users@ and ubuntu-users@ ? :)
<Riddell> so we need someone to propose it to the community council meeting tomorrow
<gnomefreak> Riddell: tomorrow at 21:00 UTC
<sebas> It's not a good thing rejecting something simple as a mailinglist for an important loco team.
<Zerlinna> fdoving: I didn't reply yet ;)
<Riddell> Zerlinna: fancy being that someone?
<toma> sebas: indeed
* kwwii votes for Zerlinna
<Riddell> sebas: KDE does it too by the way
<Zerlinna> Riddell: I think I have to ;)
<sebas> Riddell: Rejecting lists for local teams?
<toma> Riddell: deny ml's?
<Riddell> sebas: yes, sysadmin denied me kde-gb
<nixternal> hehe
<sebas> Last five lists I asked sysadmin for, I got
<toma> eeks
<sebas> Riddell: Strange.
<Zerlinna> sebas the argumentation was like a) resource costs b) it makes it harder for users to find the answers/help/support they need
<sebas> I can bring that up though (ot here)
<Riddell> Zerlinna: could you put it on the community council agenda for tomorrow then
<gnomefreak> put it here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda?highlight=%28community%29
<sebas> allee, toma: wiki + CoC done
<Zerlinna> Riddell: sebas it was not a direct denial but he asked me if
<Zerlinna> I considered using the existing ubuntu-de list and/or if there has been any discussion about creating this
<Zerlinna> new list on the ubuntu-de list
<Zerlinna> Riddell: gnomefreak ok I'll do that
<toma> sebas: thanks
<Riddell> great
<sebas> Zerlinna: Doesn't sound too supportive either
<Riddell> next item on the agenda
<Zerlinna> sebas true!
<Riddell> is mhb with kmilo looks
<mhb> that's mine
<mhb> Should we improve the looks of the kmilo volume up/down pop-up? (It appears when you use the laptop sound buttons, for instance.)
<mhb> Some reference images and mockups are located at MartinBhm/Meetings/KmiloPopup.
* sebas is always in favor of improving things
<mhb> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MartinB%c3%b6hm/Meetings/KmiloPopup
<Lure> mhb: in edgy we thought to use similar stuff as amarok does, but did not do it due to time constraint
<manchicken> What language is that?
* ryanakca likes the bottom one
<Lure> mhb: I am all for having something better
<sebas> Big is good
<toma> the label 'volume' is redundant i,ho
<seaLne> i think anything other than centered could look weird if users changed from the default size of panel, in the bottom
* manchicken seconds ryanakca's love for the bottom one.
<Lure> mhb: we should have icon on it and I agree it should be big
<mhb> icon/text ?
<toma> icon only
<kwwii> I think it could look more like katapult (ie. part. transparent)
<manchicken> I think we may want to consider "master volume" though, instead of just "volume"
<Lure> seaLne: I think center of screen makes most sense
<seaLne> can we please have a new kmix icon then?
<toma> manchicken: isnt that obvious when you press those buttons?
* Hobbsee likes the smaller one, in the middle
<manchicken> toma: Not to my wife it wasn't.
<kwwii> seaLne: we will once oxygen is out
<manchicken> toma: She thought that was adjusting Amarok's volume.
* fdoving is with hobbsee.
<Lure> mhb: amarok has nice rounded one - we could copy that code over
<ryanakca> kwwii: that would be nice, and we could theme it for each kubuntu release... might mean more work though
<seaLne> kwwii: yeah yeah :)
<Hobbsee> manchicken: why would people be changing the volume anyway?  as opposed to master
<toma> manchicken: did she press the button?
<kwwii> ryanakca: agreed
<manchicken> toma: Yeah.
<gnomefreak> i would personally go inbetween the 2 sizes shown. the big seems a bit big and the little is way too little
<mhb> Lure: of course
<toma> manchicken: userss...
<manchicken> Hobbsee: Sometimes you want your IM sounds to be louder than your music sounds...
* allee favour consistency.  so go the amarok way and change both if necessary
<manchicken> At least for me.
<ryanakca> gnomefreak: hmm... yeah
<allee> + IMHO
<Hobbsee> manchicken: true
<ryanakca> katapult looks the perfect size to me, well, the default edgy katapult at least...
<manchicken> I like *big* so that people know what it is.
<manchicken> err, so people know it's there.
<Riddell> transparency like katapult or amarok is harder to programme, especially with a widget on top of it, but would look nicer
<ryanakca> so, if we modified some katapult stuff, we'd have something themeable, looks the right size, etc
<manchicken> Larger screens will make it possible to miss the smaller ones.
<mhb> I'd wait with transparency on KDE4
<fdoving> ..with a option to turn it of then. (i don't like transparancy everywhere).
<Lure> regarding size: you have to know that this is also used for other kmilo actions (not just volume)
<sebas> I think we should shift this asscards into the artwork guys pockets.
<sebas> Otherwise you'll get endless "but I like green better" discussions
<kwwii> lol
<Riddell> mhb: are you volunteering to programme this?
<raphink> I like purple better
<mhb> Riddell: yes
<Hobbsee> raphink: yay, purple :P
<gnomefreak> +1 raphink  :)
<raphink> do I?
<Lure> raphink: amarok has purple already ;-)
<sebas> raphink: Me too, but *I* know how to bribe Ken :-)
<Riddell> mhb: as sebas says you won't get a definitive answer from the meeting, but has the feedback been useful?
<Riddell> mhb: large and with icon seems popular
<mhb> Riddell: I see
<sebas> With icon different from the current kmix one please
<sebas> That one is butt ugly
<Riddell> that icon in the mockups isn't the kmix app icon, it's quite different
<mhb> Riddell: I just want to know if we want to achieve consistency with amarok or not
<mhb> too
<manchicken> IMHO, Amarok has the right idea on the OSD for a lot of that stuff.
<Riddell> mhb: sure, that would be great, just harder to programme
<manchicken> If we're going to go for consistency, I'd rather see it go in favor of Amarok than in favor of katapult.
<Riddell> but I guess some amount of copy and paste would work
<kwwii> I think that all things like this should look the same, not just some
<manchicken> But I'm not a UI guy ^_^
<pinheiro> agread
<kwwii> and amarok does look pertty good
<mhb> I personally don't like the OSD, though
<Riddell> we should have consistency between kmilo, amarok, k3b and katapult, tricky
<mhb> neither the placement nor the default font&colour
<allee> can't this be OSD  moved to knotify or ui daemon (guessing) so OSD is easier accessible for apps?
<kwwii> tricky but that is the nicest looking idea, even if we only came close
<Riddell> allee++
<sebas> Is that only for volume in kmilo btw?
<sebas> All of kmilo should look the same IMO
<fdoving> sebas: looks like that for everything else too.
<Riddell> sebas: it would be hard to have kmilo inconsistent with itself
<Riddell> you'd have to go out of your way to programme it like that
<sebas> I hope so :)
* imbrandon shows up
<ryanakca> hey imbrandon
<Tonio_> hi imbrandon
<sebas> Hehe, believe me, I've seen things far more stupid than that :>
<pinheiro> hi imbrandon
<kwwii> like I said, lazy americans
<imbrandon> Tonio_ !
<nixternal> kwwii: you are a lazy american in Germany ;p
<imbrandon> kwwii, hehe changed days so many times
<kwwii> ;-)
<Hobbsee> sorry about that :(
<ryanakca> nixternal: lol
<Riddell> we're getting off topic, maybe time to move on
<mhb> I'm not sure if I have enough time/skill to code a more complex solution like moving the OSD elswhere before feature freeze
<mhb> I'm sure I don't have the time
<Riddell> mhb: copy and paste from amarok :)  else the mockups you have look good
<manchicken> Wait a minute... what's wrong with laziness/
<mhb> Riddell: okay then
<Riddell> thanks mhb
<Riddell> fdoving: your item
<fdoving> A Central RCS (svn/bzr?) repository of debian/ dirs for kubuntu related packages.  (Similar to http://svn.debian.org)
<mhb> thanks everyone for comments
<fdoving> I believe that would make it easier for more people to contribute and cooperate.
<manchicken> I thought there'd be something in knotify already.
<fdoving> We will also have a history, with tags for each release.
<fdoving> Thoughts?
<toma> fdoving: ++
<Hobbsee> fdoving: ++
<manchicken> konversation, amarok, k3b all use similar OSDs.
<allee> fdoving: what's wrong with using kde-extras in svn.debian.org?
<manchicken> I'm finding it hard to believe that everybody duplicated that that well.
<toma> fdoving: besides the repro of alioth
<fdoving> allee: nothing. just needs to happen.
<allee> fdoving: k
<imbrandon> allee, because in my experince its a pita , esp when we have bzr on LP already
<Hobbsee> imbrandon: that doesnt appear to be being used either but
<Riddell> I do already have a copy of the debian dirs in svn.debian.org
<toma> imbrandon: why a pita?
<Riddell> and I never manage to keep it up to date
* Hobbsee goes to lie down for a while - not feeling well
<imbrandon> Hobbsee, yea biut if we're going to choose one i would much rather use our infra that alrady goverens our teams than debians
<Tonio_> in my opinion, that duplicates everything
<Tonio_> elmo talked about that already
<Hobbsee> imbrandon: true...
<ryanakca> see yah Hobbsee
<Riddell> we'd be better waiting for the no-more-source-packages spec
<Tonio_> the idea is interesting, but only if that's done to manage all packages and autogenerate the debs
<seaLne> Tonio_: what duplicates everything?
<allee> imbrandon: I've no bzr experience, but you think using bzr and merging again and again is easier than using svn.debian.org directly (assumed most kde appshave no real kubuntu specific changes
<Tonio_> seaLne: the debian dir is already a kind of rcs system
<imbrandon> allee, yes i do, the svn on alioth is a pain to get an account then i have -guest appended to my anme and many other gripes
<Tonio_> you have a changelog, versioning etc...
<imbrandon> i'm with Riddell we wait for the no more source spec and use LP
<toma> imbrandon: that's not true
<Tonio_> that's why I'm not very keen on putting everything in a rcs
<fdoving> I belive people wou
<Tonio_> but that's my feeling only
<fdoving> ld need to change the way they work.. for a rcs to work.
<allee> Tonio_: kde-extras is in buildserver.net to build pkgs directly http://buildserver.net/ including dapper .. feisty
<Tonio_> allee: yes that's interesting, and that's what I said
<toma> http://status.buildserver.net/packages/status.php?email=pkg-kde-extra&subdist=pkg-kde-extra
<Tonio_> allee: but I think there is a spec for ubuntu packages to be managed with bzr
<imbrandon> allee, so does suse buildserver ( as in build for dapper / feisty ) but that dont mean it uses or LP accounts and permisions etc
<Tonio_> Riddell: any info if that's supposed to happen ?
<imbrandon> and will be obsolited anyhow with the no source spec
<Riddell> Tonio_: the soyuz team is very small these days, I think it'll need some more soyuz people to make it happen
<Tonio_> imbrandon: yeah I was talking about that one
<Tonio_> fdoving: talking about the amount of people needing to work on the same package, that's not very important actually
<Tonio_> fdoving: we've tested bzr with kubuntu-default-setting
<Riddell> fdoving: there's definately sympathy with the idea, but I think the core-dev people aren't willing to do the extra work to make it happen until no-more-source-packages
<Tonio_> nobody else contributes, we just have more things and pain to do to make it to work...
<imbrandon> Riddell, ++
<fdoving> Tonio_: it's not too much about 'neeeding'.. it's more about 'beeing able to'.
<fdoving> Tonio_: i can't change anything on your harddrive.
<Tonio_> fdoving: yeah sure
<kwwii> I've been up for 18 hours and have to get up to take my son to school in another 6, could we skip to the next issue?
<fdoving> Riddell: ok.
<imbrandon> is someone takin minutes? since i came late , i dident realize it had been changerd again
<imbrandon> yea lets move on
<Riddell> kwwii: are you after a paticular issue?
<mhb> he's useful for the widget style one
<kwwii> the style issue would be good
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-01-09
<kwwii> exactly ;-)
<Riddell> go mhb then
<mhb> Would it be positive for Kubuntu Feisty to have a new default widget style? Plastik/Lipstik looks (to me) a bit inconsistent with the direction of Kubuntu artwork started with Edgy.
<mhb> My suggestion described in detail can be found here: MartinBhm/Meetings/NewWidgetStyle.
<imbrandon> btw kubuntu looks smokin on my new 22inch widescreen lcd :)
<mhb> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MartinB%c3%b6hm/Meetings/NewWidgetStyle
<kwwii> I agree with mhb on this one, if we can assure that it works as well as lipstick
<imbrandon> yea i'm for it too, as long as there is no regressions
<imbrandon> looks thought out
<Riddell> I've always wanted to keep the kubuntu widget style close to the KDE one
<Tonio_> I agree too
<Riddell> but maybe I'm outvoted :)
<mhb> Riddell: you'll have the default style again with KDE4
<Riddell> any idea if this works with gtk-qt-engine well?
<Jucato> would QtCurve be a good alternative as well? it has the advantage of having a KDE and a GTK version. also extremely customizable so that we could make a Kubuntu scheme
<kwwii> Riddell: that would be a prudent idea if there are no artists to work on kubuntu stuff
<Tonio_> Riddell: lipstik ? it does
<imbrandon> Jucato, thats what tk-qt engine is for :)
<Riddell> changing the theme also makes qt 4 apps look out of place
<Jucato> (QtCurve works with gtk2-engines-gtk-qt)
<toma> i dont like the tabs with the thick lines and the selected button personally
<Jucato> imbrandon: polyester doesn't exactly work well with the gtk-qt engine
* sebas again shifts an asscard into artwork guy's pocket ;-)
<Jucato> for example, if you have menu stripe enabled
<sebas> What is kwwii's preference?
<mhb> Jucato: actually it works badly only with firefox
<Riddell> sebas: or pinheiro
<Jucato> mhb: so only firefox is affected?
* Jucato tests
<mhb> Jucato: but the menu stripe can go away completely
<sebas> Riddell: If he's active here, yeah
<kwwii> polyester or qt-curve(configured right)
<mhb> Jucato: the author of gtk-qt confirmed that to me personally
<nixternal> Jucato: i have noticed many of the kde styles/themes aren't working well with the gtk-qt engine, and especially with FF
<imbrandon> honestly i think this should be a decision for pinheiro and kwwii because its artwork related and thats what they are paid to do but thats just my 0.2c ( and i like it ) but again i would hope for regression testing and qt4 compat etc
<kwwii> FF is not default anyway
<ryanakca> kwwii: I like polyester... used it for a couple of months...
<sebas> I mean we can again start a "I like green better" discussion, but in the end, the artworkers have to make everything smooth and consistent
<nixternal> i went back to good ol' plastik for windeco and qtcurve for style
<Jucato> but a lot of people install it though... but yeah, not default :)
<imbrandon> sebas, exactly
<kwwii> kde4 will have a different style and windec anyway
<imbrandon> honestly i think this should be a decision for pinheiro and kwwii because its artwork related and thats what they are paid to do but thats just my 0.2c ( and i like it ) but again i would hope for regression testing and qt4 compat etc
<imbrandon> err
<pinheiro> yes it will :P
<imbrandon> sorry for double post
<Jucato> we just have to make a decision for at least feisty :)
<Riddell> so let's wait and see if we actually get artists properly assigned for feisty and make a choice then
<kwwii> so we will be moving to something else for kde4 anyway
<kwwii> Riddell: agreed
<Riddell> interesting to see the high support for mhb's proposal though
<imbrandon> ;)
<Riddell> my item is next
<Riddell> gwenview was unmaintained
<Riddell> but now seems to be sort of maintained again
<Riddell> I still think it duplicates digikam though
<seaLne> what would you replace it with?
<kwwii> gwenview is overkill for a picture viewer
<Riddell> as an app, the plugin is the bit I care about
<imbrandon> upstream or in debian ? and yes it dupes digikam imho
<Riddell> (being the bit I wrote as well)
<Tonio_> Riddell: I don't think gwenview duplicates showfoto
<sebas> As a picture viewer I want the app that starts the fastest.
<Jucato> should we have a lighter/faster image viewer instead?
<Riddell> sebas: konqueror!
<allee> imbrandon: no.  digikam uses one picture tree, gwenview does not
<seaLne> i think it works well as a viewer in konq
<imbrandon> sebas, ++
<sebas> And that's probably not gwenview :(
<Tonio_> showfoto is more to watch photos in an expert point of view, it is not an image viewer
<toma> digikam is getting a professional audience more and more, i think gwenview fills the gap for the entry user
<kwwii> as someone who mainly views pics I think the gwenview plugin is overkill
<kwwii> not sure if there is something better though
<Jucato> kwwii: gwenview plugin == kipi-plugins?
* ryanakca likes gwenview... just a bit slow for me, although it's probably just my computer
<fdoving> kuickshow was nice :)
<allee> Jucato: yes
* Zerlinna likes gwenview, too
<Riddell> Jucato: no, the gwenview kpart used in konqueror
* nixternal uses Konqi and whatever plugin it uses to view photos
<toma> Jucato: no, i think they mean the part
<Jucato> ah
<toma> ..
<sebas> I've not seen a single viewer app that starts fast enough (well, maybe kpdf)
* mhb uses gwenview, too
<toma> so, i vote against removal
<Jucato> ah ok... gwenview kpart
<Tonio_> same for me
<Tonio_> Riddell: what to use as replacement ?
<Riddell> Tonio_: digikam for the app
<nixternal> just fix the gwenview kpart for konqi so you can delete while viewing and it will be good :)
<Riddell> of course
<Tonio_> Riddell: digikam uses a tree
<Jucato> nixternal: Shift+Delete
<toma> Riddell: digikam is going for another audience imho
<Tonio_> doesn't work on the all hard drive
<ryanakca> just looking on the web for KDE image viewers, showimg, http://extragear.kde.org/apps/showimg/ . however, it looks more complex than digikam
<Riddell> of course digikam is also first on the list to be knocked off the CD if we run out of space
<Jucato> nixternal: but that deletes permanently...
<nixternal> Jucato: i know that, but as im browsing images, i tend to use the mouse and layback away from the kb a little
<seaLne> nixternal: thats starting to sound dodgy
<nixternal> seaLne: or lazy :)
<kwwii> using the kpart in konqueror I get confused between which arrow does what
<nixternal> seaLne: hahaha i just freakin' caught that
<kwwii> and I cannot right click on it to do anything...you have to use the menu entries
<kwwii> but anyway....I am passing out
<kwwii> night everyone
<fdoving> nite kwwii.
<ryanakca> hmm... showimg looks nice, even though a bit more complicated that gwenview... dunno if there's a plugin for
<ryanakca> nite kwwii
<allee> nite kwwii
<Zerlinna> nite kwwii
<Riddell> ok, nobody seems to want it removed so let's not
<Jucato> bye kwwii!
<mhb> goodnight kwwii
<ryanakca> a plugin for konqueror in it
<Tonio_> nite kwwii
<imbrandon> l8tr kwwii
<nixternal> g'nite kwwii
<toma> that's about it without Hobbsee?
<Tonio_> ryanakca: showimg is unmaintained and SLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW
<Riddell> toma: seems to be
<ryanakca> Tonio_: ah, kk
<Jucato> kuickshow?
<Tonio_> Jucato: unmaintained for 2 years
<Jucato> oh
<ryanakca> lol, 2003 :)
<Riddell> Jucato: isn't even in the archives
<Tonio_> 4 years sorry
<Jucato> ah yeah, I remember that "issue" about it being removed :)
<Riddell> although if someone wants to package it that would be good
<nixternal> my only issue with gwenview personally is the issue of open bugs from over a year ago w/ no responses, but hopefully that will get fixed
<ryanakca> kuickshow or showimg?
<Riddell> kuickshow
<ryanakca> kk
<LjL> what with showfoto? i don't have it right now (broken in edgy), but i seem to recall it was quite a bit simpler-looking and probably faster-loading than gwenview, for simple image viewing
<nixternal> as a matter of fact i noticed that the upstream bug of the eps issue has been confirmed
<Tonio_> Riddell: did you read allee's comment on gwenview ?
<fdoving> some kde-dev criticised the removal from the repos.. because he fixed bugs in it.. can't recall who though.
<fdoving> it was some bugreport.
<Tonio_> it might not be unmaintained finally, just slower development
<Riddell> fdoving: as I said, I'd be happy to have it back in universe if someone wants to do that
<Riddell> mhb: Hobbsee had an item about the testing team
<mhb> Riddell: I know ... should we wait for her?
<Riddell> mhb: Herd 2 is due out this week, recon we can have people testing it?
<Riddell> naw, she's away snoozing
<mhb> Riddell: I mean for the next meeting or so
<allee> LjL: for showfoto: one has to disable all plugins (otherwise it's too slow to start),  and showfoto has no konqi part
<mhb> Riddell: I've been thinking about the team's structure
<mhb> Riddell: it seems I cannot keep the team intact for the early development phase
<Tonio_> allee: and showfoto is more a "viewer for experts"
<mhb> Riddell: because there is little to test and people are afraid to test the early release
<allee> Tonio_: really?  Without plugins. I'ts for  newbie ;)
<mhb> Riddell: so the solution is probably to make a buzz about it around the Devel CD 2 or so
* ryanakca is willing to upgrade to Herd 2, if it's at least useable... don't care if I have some bugs to file, just as long as i can boot and run it, and have KDE :)
<Tonio_> allee: not talking about the usability, but the infos it displays etc....
<manchicken> I've got a buddy at work who's a QA manager there who keeps on saying he wants to help.
<Riddell> mhb: what do you mean devel cd 2?
<manchicken> Maybe I could talk him into helping.
<Tonio_> allee: it is done to whatch photos with professionnal eye
<mhb> Riddell: Herd CD 2 in this case
<Riddell> ryanakca: we have no idea what state it's in, that's why we need testers :)
<ryanakca> hmm...
<Riddell> mhb: that's this week then :)
<mhb> Riddell: it's going to be named differently in the next release
<mhb> Riddell: yeah, I kno
<mhb> w
* ryanakca will look at it
<mhb> Riddell: I wanted to test the dailies first
<ryanakca> bbl, supper
<nixternal> dailies are all broken
<mhb> Riddell: to find out if the upcoming Herd 2 is "stable" enough at least for testers
<allee> nixternal: thx. I was about to burn todays daily after the meeting ;)
<mhb> Riddell: I know I couldn't convince anyone if there was a font or locale bug
<Riddell> mhb: sounds like it's too early for a big testing team call then
<mhb> Riddell: usually testers want to use the system as well, they like the new stuff
<nixternal> i downloaded daily and daily-live and neither of them will mount the cdrom
<Zerlinna> mhb is there anything against testing it with qemu or vmware (except that is might be slow)? maybe more people would do that
<Riddell> mhb: let's try and big it up for a future herd then
<Riddell> in the mean time I'll be poking ryanakca and others for herd 2 testing :)
<nixternal> well daily live crashes as soon as i clicked the install icon
<mhb> Zerlinna: no, you can do that
<nixternal> daily alternate won't mount the cdrom
<Riddell> nixternal: get a backtrace?
<mhb> Zerlinna: the problem is, I'm not sure if people are doing testing for the sake of testing or testing for the sake of fun and using edge systems
<mhb> Riddell: there are some other minor issues
<mhb> Riddell: Testers should have the possibility to submit their output easily, I think
<nixternal> Riddell: already filed a bug with the backtrace
<manchicken> Riddell: Do you need more help with testing or more help with what you've got me on?
<Zerlinna> mhb well, both, I suppose... that's why I'd propose to run it virtualised so it can't damage anything
<Riddell> nixternal: could you e-mail the number, I'll need to get onto that tomorrow morning
<mhb> Riddell: editing wiki is not the easiest way to output data
<nixternal> Riddell: roger that
<manchicken> I don't want to risk upsetting the stable system though.
<Riddell> manchicken: you're coding, keep your system stable :)
<manchicken> Okie dokie.
<manchicken> Riddell: Can I stab glade yet?
<manchicken> ^_^
<Riddell> so, also on the agenda is Hobbsee about #kubuntu channel contact, I made her alternate contact so hopefully that's sorted
<Riddell> kmail and gpg is interesting, I had assumed that just worked
<mhb> Zerlinna: if someone comes to me and says he wants to test Herd 2 through virtualiztion, I'll be happy to assist him
<Jucato> ugh! I forgot to add an agenda about pppoeconf... :(
<seaLne> Riddell: its always given me probs
<mhb> Zerlinna: but I'll start making the buzz when a Herd CD is usable enough for a tester without virtualisation
<toma> Riddell: no, it basically requires the right packages, a howto would be great though
<imbrandon> Riddell, yea kmail + gpg isnt nice
<fdoving> Jucato: i belive it's just something you bring up in #kubuntu-devel - isn't it?
<Jucato> mhb: I came to you once about that, you didn't help me :P
<mhb> Jucato: really?
<Jucato> fdoving: well I wasn't the one who brought it up actually... forgot who did :)
<nixternal> Riddell: on the other hand, KMail and GPG has always "just worked" for me :)
<mhb> Jucato: I must have slept then :o)
<Riddell> ryanakca had an agenda item
<seaLne> and follwoing the howtos dosen't always work
<nixternal> although i had to recently install gnupg-agent and pinentry-qt and that was that
<fdoving> Jucato: i don't remember either.
<Jucato> fdoving: Enola_Gay
<Riddell> Jucato: what's this about pppoeconf?
<mhb> what are we discussing now?
<Riddell> any other items
<mhb> okay
<Jucato> Riddell: about making a K Menu entry to launch pppoeconf in Konsole
<Riddell> Jucato: kmenu is for GUI apps only
<fdoving> Riddell: as of now it's hard for pppoe users to get online to find the docs on how to run pppoeconf.
<toma> seaLne: i'll meet some kmail crew on saturday, if you have any questions, i can pass them on
<Riddell> Jucato: does knet work?
<Jucato> oh yeah, KNOPPIX does it in a way that runs pppoeconf with a GUI...
<nixternal> fdoving: im hoping to have that fixed with our new docs I am working on for not only Kubuntu but for KDE as well
<fdoving> nixternal: good thing. :)
<Jucato> Riddell: I have to test it out
<nixternal> Jucato: there used to be a GUI for PPPoEConf when I had DSL many years ago
<Riddell> Jucato: otherwise, adding a button to knetworkconf would be an option
<fdoving> nixternal: it's xdialog based, and xdialog is ugly and in universe.
<Jucato> ah xdialog
<nixternal> ya it was ugly
<nixternal> haha
<Riddell> does KNOPPIX use the xdialog thing?
<fdoving> i spendt half an hour hacking pppoeconf to work with pppoeconf.
<nixternal> about as ugly as the java apps i have been seeing lately (i.e., frostwire, jloadr, and more)
<Jucato> looks like it
<fdoving> it can work, but i could just as fast write a new app for it.
<nixternal> Riddell: on the side of 'PPP', KPPP seems to be giving lots of people issues.
<Riddell> fdoving: do it :)
<Jucato> will knetworkmanager be able to handle PPPoE soon? or shoud it be in knetworkconf?
<toma> fdoving: youre quite confident ;-)
<fdoving> Riddell: i belive there are enought half-way-there kde-network-apps..
<fdoving> toma: it's bash :)
<toma> ah
<Riddell> fdoving: true
<Riddell> Jucato: I've no idea
<nixternal> fdoving: in Kubuntu that would be "it's dash" ;)
<Jucato> ok... I'll test knet
<Jucato> but knet would also make kppp redundant, iirc
<fdoving> nixternal: yes, actually, it's dash.
<nixternal> so no echo -e anymore, use echo " " or echo "blah\nblah"
<Riddell> well, knet has its own usability issues
<Jucato> iirc it's a bit unmaintained as well
<nixternal> http://www.kde-apps.org/content/show.php?content=35471
<Jucato> hm... that looks interesting
<Riddell> now there's a programme with attitude
<nixternal> has potential and was recently updated (28 Nov 06)
<nixternal> hahah, the Roaring Penguin
<Riddell> Jucato: able to test it and see if it works?
<somerville32> You guys are still going at it in here? :] 
<Jucato> ok I'll try to test it
* Zerlinna has to leave now... have a nice meeting :)
<nixternal> later Zerlinna and congrats!Q
<toma> ok, i'll be at the kdepim meeting this weekend, if anyone has requests let me know...
<mhb> bye Zerlinna
<Jucato> bye Zerlinna
<nixternal> toma: put it online so i can listen :)
<fdoving> bye zerlinna.
<Riddell> toma: write a report for the dot :)
<Zerlinna> bye :)
<toma> Riddell: ;-)
<somerville32> :)
<sebas> toma: No really, the PIM meetings are definitely too silent
<nixternal> or send me the minutes and i will write up a story for the dot (i am on some sort of confuses promo team)
<toma> sebas: yes, i'll at least do some blogs
<Riddell> it needs someone who is there to write a report
<sebas> toma: Cool
<toma> Riddell: i'll see what i can do
<Riddell> toma: thanks
<sebas> ade's there as well, nixternal, that should give enough content for the dot
<Riddell> any other items?
<nixternal> sebas: rocking
<Riddell> any volunteers to sort out the meeting wiki page and add a paragraph to UWN?
<nixternal> svn commit -m "CCMAIL:jr@riddell.com muhahahahaha"
<nixternal> ;p
<mhb> Riddell: I can sort the wiki page
<Riddell> you're the man mhb
<toma> thanks mhb
<Riddell> I think that's all then
<Riddell> thanks everyone
<toma> nite!
<nixternal> yay \o/
<mhb> good night and thanks
<fdoving> nite.
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 09 Jan 15:00 UTC: LoCo Team | 09 Jan 16:00 UTC: Forum Council | 09 Jan 21:00 UTC: Community Council | 10 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 11 Jan 21:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 16 Jan 20:00 UTC: Technical Board
<effie_jayx> @schedule
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 09 Jan 15:00: LoCo Team | 09 Jan 16:00: Forum Council | 09 Jan 21:00: Community Council | 10 Jan 12:00: Edubuntu | 11 Jan 21:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 16 Jan 20:00: Technical Board
<effie_jayx> @schedule caracas
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Caracas: 09 Jan 11:00: LoCo Team | 09 Jan 12:00: Forum Council | 09 Jan 17:00: Community Council | 10 Jan 08:00: Edubuntu | 11 Jan 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 16 Jan 16:00: Technical Board
<juliux> @schedule berlin
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Berlin: 09 Jan 16:00: LoCo Team | 09 Jan 17:00: Forum Council | 09 Jan 22:00: Community Council | 10 Jan 13:00: Edubuntu | 11 Jan 22:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 16 Jan 21:00: Technical Board
* willys_fueguino se va a dormir... (entren a #ubuntu-lat!!)
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Current meeting: LoCo Team | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 09 Jan 16:00 UTC: Forum Council | 09 Jan 21:00 UTC: Community Council | 10 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 11 Jan 21:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 16 Jan 20:00 UTC: Technical Board
<markvandenborre> hi all
<markvandenborre> who is here for the locoteams meeting?
* vorian_ is
<GazzaK> hi or something
<markvandenborre> anyone else?
<markvandenborre> Seveas, you awake?
<markvandenborre> JanC,
<dsas> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoTeamMeeting is the meeting agenda
<dsas> I think I read on the list that Jono may not be able to make it.
* markvandenborre too
<Seeker`> Does jono have to be here for the meeting to happen?
<markvandenborre> dsas, you feel like guiding this meeting?
* Seeker` thinks it was very kind of dsas to volunteer :P
<dsas> bah
<markvandenborre> :)
<markvandenborre> dsas, is that a yes or a no?
<effie_jayx> Seeker`, he said he was not attending
<dsas> that's a "please someone else step up"
<markvandenborre> ok, I'll see what we can make out of this
* _nairoV applauds markvandenborre 
<dsas> I don't know anything about the issues in the agenda...
<markvandenborre> 1. https://launchpad.net/products/ubuntu-website/+bug/51382
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 51382 in ubuntu-website "Suggestion: LoCo Teams to Free Support Page" [Undecided,Fix released] 
<markvandenborre> joey doesn't seem to be around
<markvandenborre> anyone else was involved?
<markvandenborre> any thoughts about it that might be interesting to add to the discussion?
<markvandenborre> let's take 2 minutes to read through it
<markvandenborre> for those who haven't yet, then comment
<dsas> I've pinged mdke.
<markvandenborre> Zelut, https://launchpad.net/products/ubuntu-website/+bug/51382
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 51382 in ubuntu-website "Suggestion: LoCo Teams to Free Support Page" [Undecided,Fix released] 
<dsas> Right, so what we need to do is ask each team if they provide that kind of support and make a list on the wiki, then get mdke to change the link.
<_nairoV> do we have said wiki page?
<dsas> _nairoV: Not yet.
<markvandenborre> I thought I had seen it in some mailing list post
<_nairoV> dsas: thanks
<markvandenborre> any more suggestions on this?
<dsas> markvandenborre: I didn't see anything likely in CategoryLoCoTeams
<markvandenborre> maybe we should post on the locoteams list about this
<_nairoV> markvandenborre: we are setting up framewrok for face to face support in Ohio
<markvandenborre> _nairoV, same thing for us
<_nairoV> I think it would be helpful for there to be one page to rule them all....
<dsas> markvandenborre: Yeah, we should post on the list, with a link to a wiki page and let people update it.
<markvandenborre> Belgian team has this highly succesful user map
<dsas> a FaceToFaceSupport page name sound ok?
<markvandenborre> ok, so one wiki page with the kinds of local face-to-face support teams give, right?
<_nairoV> dsas: yes
<markvandenborre> dsas, sounds fine to me...
<markvandenborre> dsas, you do it, and post to the mailing list?
<dsas> markvandenborre: sure.
<markvandenborre> ok, any other comments on this?
<markvandenborre> 3....
<markvandenborre> 2....
<markvandenborre> 1....
<markvandenborre> next point
<markvandenborre> interloco communications
<markvandenborre> I believe (not sure) this has something to do with language problems, mostly
<markvandenborre> of certain countries not having many people who are fluent enough in English to follow the locoteams mailing list
<markvandenborre> getting information to flow between the international locoteams list and the local one is sometimes really difficult
<markvandenborre> ideas for improving that?
<Vorian_> markvandenborre: what about a loco planet?
<markvandenborre> please explain yourself?
<Vorian_> similar to http://planet.ubuntulinux.org/
<ubuntugeek> hello all
<markvandenborre> hi ubuntugeek
<Vorian_> ubuntugeek: hey
<ubuntugeek> who is here for the FC meeting? anyone
<markvandenborre> having locoteam meeting right now...
<ubuntugeek> ah yes i am early :)
<ubuntugeek> got my times messes up
<markvandenborre> Vorian_, how would that help solve the language problem?
<markvandenborre> it's basicly about having a quite active Chinese community for example, but few people who speak English enough in this community
<Vorian_> not so sure, just an idea lol
<markvandenborre> :)
<Zelut> markvandenborre: perhaps assign ambassadors to teams that need translators, etc.
<dsas> Hm, there must be a few english speakers that can act as go betweens
<effie_jayx> ambassadors help a great deal :D
<markvandenborre> ok, so how can we make their jobs easier?
<markvandenborre> this is probably why something like ubuntu weekly news is so important
<markvandenborre> because it condenses a lot of information from the international community into something easily translatable
<dsas> how can we encourage people to translate it?
<dsas> maybe we can add a note to the UWN itself asking for translators
<markvandenborre> by giving it a maximum length, for example?
<markvandenborre> the last one (before christmas I believe) was _really_ long
<Vorian_> markvandenborre: that should help...
<dsas> Yeah, they are growing a lot, I don't imagine the marketing team being eager to shrink it though
<dsas> we could possibly flag up certain sections to be a higher priority to be translated
<markvandenborre> dsas, they probably should, to make it easier for translations to get through...
<markvandenborre> it's also about being read in the english capable community
<markvandenborre> too long, won't get read entirely
<markvandenborre> maybe we could also include a call for translators into it, if that doesn't happen already?
<dsas> markvandenborre: To shorten it will require some contact with the marketing team, we should see what their response is.
<markvandenborre> (well, "we", I mean, we could suggest the uwn people to do so)
<markvandenborre> ok,
<markvandenborre> so getting information out of the mostly native language locoteams to the international community
<markvandenborre> any hints on stimulating that?
<dsas> ah, it does contain "If you'd like to read the UWN in your native language, please check http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter for a list of translations." already.
<markvandenborre> perfect
<Zelut> i wonder if we could find translators from rosetta.  if they're already working on a language perhaps they wouldn't mind a tad more.
<markvandenborre> good point...
<Zelut> and if its just the weekly newsletter it shouldn't be *too* much extra work.. I wouldn't think
<markvandenborre> so how about getting this really interesting news fact out of the Kurdistan or Bhutan team to the international community?
<markvandenborre> (locoteams community)
<markvandenborre> maybe stimulate them to send in robot translations + the original if they can't find a translation immediately?
<Zelut> thats where I think the ambassadors come in.  making sure information flows both ways
<markvandenborre> k
<markvandenborre> next point, or we'll be running over time
<Vorian_> :)
<Zelut> recruit someone whos main responsibility is simply translating communications between teams.. I think we could find some interest inthat.
<markvandenborre> Zelut, absolutely
<markvandenborre> next: locoteams documentation, how to make it more practical
<markvandenborre> any thoughts about this?
<Zelut> you referring to the locoteamshowto, locoteamslist, etc?
<markvandenborre> loco docs, loco faq, locoteam howto,...
<markvandenborre> this stuff, yes
<markvandenborre> it might be really interesting to compile all the information that has gathered into something more comprehensive
<markvandenborre> think a small, easily printable booklet
<markvandenborre> right now, there's lots of information, but not always easy to find your way around...
<markvandenborre> hey JoeyStanford !
<Zelut> i know it was a lot of guesswork when I created our team
<JoeyStanford> Hiya Mark!
<Vorian_> Zelut: Same with us...
<Zelut> a .pdf printable booklet would be nice I think
<Zelut> a step 1, step 2, etc layout would be nice.
<markvandenborre> maybe this is something to see on the mailing list if we can get a few people to work on it
<markvandenborre> ?
<markvandenborre> I would gladly join such an effort...
<Vorian_> I'll help
<markvandenborre> other ways to improve this locoteams howto document?
<markvandenborre> documentation, I mean...
<markvandenborre> something that is really missing from it?
<Vorian_> I don't think there is
<Vorian_> It is just not organized as well as it could be
<markvandenborre> maybe it's also a good idea to have docs about new subjects grow on the wiki first, then include them...
<markvandenborre> ok, next point, women's group
<markvandenborre> any women around, or people who know what this is about?
<markvandenborre> let's all have a brief look at http://ubuntu-women.org/ then...
<JoeyStanford> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWomen
<JoeyStanford> both are the same
<JoeyStanford> I believe the question was:
<JoeyStanford> Ubuntu Women is a specialized community team (not necessarily Local)
<JoeyStanford> Is there a place for them inside the LoCo structure.
<dsas> I don't see why not, it's the same sort of thing...
<markvandenborre> it seems like a perfect fit, considering we also have pure language oriented teams
<markvandenborre> they aren't strictly locally linked either
* JoeyStanford appologizes for being late. His calendaring software said this started in 10 mins, not 50 mins ago.  bummer.
<markvandenborre> where else would they fit in?
<Zelut> after scanning through the wiki I think it seems more of a team like the marketing team, docs team, etc..
<JoeyStanford> Mark, I think that's the crux.
<Zelut> I think loco focuses more on regional support
<markvandenborre> Zelut, locoteams is really broad
<markvandenborre> for some things, it's as much about translations as about face to face support
<markvandenborre> no locoteam is the same in the tasks it defines for itself
<Seeker`> but the LoCo teams that is based on locations, be it countries or langugaes
<Seeker`> Women aren't in countries of their own, and they speak the same languages
<markvandenborre> there's Kurdish people in Belgium too
<markvandenborre> who are part of the Kurdish team...
<markvandenborre> and in the us, and everywhere around the globe
<JoeyStanford> Seeker, in this case, the UW group is a world-wide group. You are correct, they do not have a single local area.  The question to me is "do they do the things that a LoCo does but without a set geographical area". If the answer is yes, then they are simply a specialized LoCo.
<markvandenborre> Seeker`, do you think it would be bad if they joined the locoteams list?
<Zelut> i think they could work with loco teams in efforts of translation but I don't know about considering them a specialized loco, just a new team
<JoeyStanford> "the LoCo project is here to help groups of Ubuntu fans and enthusiasts work together in regional teams to help advocate, promote, translate, develop and otherwise improve Ubuntu."
<Seeker`> markvandenborre: I dont think it would be bad as such, I am just trying to work out wether they are actually a LoCo team or not
<JoeyStanford> If I read their wiki and web page correctly, they have nailed each point except "regional"
<markvandenborre> Seeker`, are angels male or female :p
<JoeyStanford> their region would be the Internet.
<markvandenborre> I think we don't have to define them as a locoteam or not
<markvandenborre> but we and they sure could benefit from communicating
<Seeker`> markvandenborre: I haven't given any thought to the question, and it is irrelevant
<markvandenborre> and the locoteams list looks like an obvious pleace for that...
<Zelut> again, I think coordinating the loco efforts with them would be beneficial (in the same way we'll help coordinate & translate with the marketing team) but considering them a loco seems to open to the door to consider every team a specialized loco
<Seeker`> if you have a womans LoCo team, why not have a LoCo for people called "Chris", or people with brown hair?
<JoeyStanford> Zelut has a good point. One of the concerns at UDS MTV was having multiple LoCos in a region.
<markvandenborre> ah, that way you mean...
<markvandenborre> Seeker`, would that be a bad thing?
<JoeyStanford> Normally specialized groups fall under the Community Council and not the LoCo team. In this case we have a specialized group which looks like a LoCo team but doesn't have a region.
<markvandenborre> you could easily say "even if we're not sure if you're a loco or not, you're welcome"
<Vorian_> I, for one, feel they should be welcome in the loco organization...for what its worth
<markvandenborre> okay for everyone if we tackle the next subject?
<Vorian_> should we table it?
<Seeker`> I think we have just run out of time
<Vorian_> there is another meeting now
<markvandenborre> who is responsible for the next meeting?
<Vorian_> ubuntugeek:
<PriceChild> markvandenborre, ubuntugeek
* ubuntugeek raises hand
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Current meeting: Forum Council | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 09 Jan 21:00 UTC: Community Council | 10 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 11 Jan 21:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 16 Jan 20:00 UTC: Technical Board
<markvandenborre> ubuntugeek, have a few minutes left?
<markvandenborre> or maybe we could move to #ubuntu-locoteams just as well...
<ubuntugeek> we got a 2 hour slot, and i am sure we wont use it
<ubuntugeek> so if you need a few more minutes go for it
<markvandenborre> ok, so we just stay for another 5 to 10 minutes?
<markvandenborre> thx!
<ubuntugeek> thats fine
<markvandenborre> how to setup a LoCoteam newsletter (and avoid fragmentation)
<Zelut> what would be included in a locoteam newsletter?
<markvandenborre> the issue at stake here is that if you create a passive medium like a newsletter
<dsas> markvandenborre: What is supposed to be in the news letter?
<markvandenborre> translated pr for new ubuntu releases
<markvandenborre> announcements of events the locoteam participates in
<markvandenborre> announcements of other news relevant to the locoteam
<Vorian_> success stories!
<markvandenborre> things like that
<markvandenborre> the issue jono has with this is
<Zelut> sounds like similar things included in the UWN..
* JoeyStanford agrees with Zelut.
<markvandenborre> yes, but local level only
<markvandenborre> something that we need to be very careful about
<markvandenborre> is stimulating people who receive the newsletter
<markvandenborre> to also join the more active locoteam list
<markvandenborre> (so the local team list, not the international one)
<markvandenborre> that's something particularly important to jono
<markvandenborre> and he has something of a point there
<JoeyStanford> Based on the above, at this time I would favour enhancing the UWN LoCo area over creation of a LoCo only newsletter.
<JoeyStanford> UWN is in the beginnings of having it's issues translated.
<Yann2> hi
<Zelut> I think each of the LoCos probably send out newsletter type updates on their own lists, and we have the UWN which shares larger successes.. sounds like duplication.
<JoeyStanford> Zelut, that's what my team does as well.
<markvandenborre> we have the following situation:
<Vorian_> Zelut: ditto
<JoeyStanford> Zelut, but I think Jono's concern is to have one master LoCo newsletter
<markvandenborre> lots of people on the locoteam list
<markvandenborre> this list is for active participants
<dsas> isn't the news worth folding into UWN though?
<Vorian_> why don't we just start one, and work out any issues that come of it?
<markvandenborre> (organising fairs, ...)
<markvandenborre> Vorian_, what do you mean?
<Vorian_> plan a newsletter for feb
<Vorian_> see what reactions are
<markvandenborre> what kind of a newsletter?
<Vorian_> Loco specific
<markvandenborre> what would be the added value of that?
<Vorian_> with the topics you listed earlier
<markvandenborre> locoteams list summary you mean?
<Vorian_> yep
<markvandenborre> isn't uwn enough?
<markvandenborre> they have enough problems already keeping to a schedule
<Vorian_> they could link to the loco news
* Zelut has to run off to work. be back at the CC meeting.
<markvandenborre> JoeyStanford, trying to explain why we are planning to run a local newsletter
<markvandenborre> we have a lot of nl (or fr, for that matter) only people around
<markvandenborre> who are only interested in more basic news like:
<markvandenborre> new releases
<markvandenborre> and events where ubuntu-be.org will be present
<markvandenborre> this is quite a broad group
<dsas> markvandenborre: Can't you just make a summary for UWN and then include any .be specifics?
<markvandenborre> so we're talking really low frequency here
<Vorian_> I say monthly
<dsas> I don't have a problem with local newsletters, I must have misunderstood the idea.
<markvandenborre> yes, very well possible
<markvandenborre> the potential problem jono sees with this is fragmentation
<markvandenborre> people not making the jump from the passive low frequency newsletter to the locoteam itself
<markvandenborre> so we were looking for ideas on how to remedy that
<dsas> there's no reason why you can't do your own newsletter and just link in to the few big news when it happens, or link to UWN saying "more news available at"
<markvandenborre> good idea...
<Vorian_> dsas: right on
<markvandenborre> but also: link from the local newsletter to the local active volunteers mailing list
<JoeyStanford> and more importantly to me, ensure the UWN has the details so we can spread the word to everyone else.
<dsas> yeah, this shouldn't result in less info being passed to UWN
* JoeyStanford agrees.
<markvandenborre> if I understood jono correctly, this was not his objection
<markvandenborre> he was more concerned about fragmenting the local community
<markvandenborre> any hints on more ways to avoid that?
<dsas> Currently if people don't want to be very active then what choices do they have: don't be part at all? Increasing ways of participation is not a bad thing.
<markvandenborre> dsas, my thought exactly
* JoeyStanford looks at ubuntugeek and says "we'll be done in just a minute. last topic." :-)
<markvandenborre> 3....
<ubuntugeek> about 5 more mins good for you guys?
<Larynx> :D
<markvandenborre> 2....
<markvandenborre> 1...
<markvandenborre> 1/2....
<markvandenborre> done
<markvandenborre> thx all, thx ubuntugeek
<JoeyStanford> fade to black
<Vorian_> thanks markvandenborre !
<ubuntugeek> great
<markvandenborre> anyone
<ubuntugeek> thanks guys
<dsas> thanks ubuntugeek
<markvandenborre> who's still interested, -> #ubuntu-locoteams
<dsas> thanks markvandenborre for chairing
<Larynx> o_O
* willys_duerme se despert... buaaaaa ke fiaca :-
<Larynx> what did i miss?
<ubuntugeek> Well al-rightly then.. Welcome to the first Forum council meeting.
<ubuntugeek> Running late, but hey thats the way we roll :)
<ubuntugeek> agenda can be found here
<ubuntugeek> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ForumCouncilAgenda
<vshelton> /help
<vshelton> /list
<ubuntugeek> ok so
<ubuntugeek> Hopefully we'll build up some more people attending as this catches on :)
<jdong> :) the wonders of IRC meetings
<ubuntugeek> heh yeah :)
* ubuntugeek trys to fill time with rambles
<jdong> lol
<ubuntugeek> Anyone here not know the purpose of the FC and wish to know the purpose?
* forumsmatthew suggests a welcome and introduction to what the FC is
* forumsmatthew was slow
<PriceChild> ubuntugeek, first item has a lot of rambling potential :)
<ubuntugeek> Yes it does
<ubuntugeek> So the FC was recently setup as a governance council for the ubuntuforums.org site.
<markvandenborre> sorry for interrupting, but....
<ubuntugeek> the purpose of the FC is to make decisions on forum issues and resolve conflicts etc within the forums.
<ubuntugeek> whats up?
<markvandenborre> anyone has the logs for 16.00-> 17.15?
<PriceChild> markvandenborre, I'll sort that out for you
<markvandenborre> PriceChild, thx a lot
<ubuntugeek> ok thanks pricy
<markvandenborre> sorry again and bye
<ubuntugeek> Today at the CC meeting Matthew and Mike will be hopefully elected on to the FC council giving us a 5 member team.
<forumsmatthew> FYI... Matthew=me
<ubuntugeek> :)
<ubuntugeek> Ok lets discuss setting up forum teams. I know pricechild you are ready to roll on this idea.. what thoughts do you have
<PriceChild> Well shall we start with the leadership applications?
<PriceChild> make a small shortlist?
<ubuntugeek> yep
<ubuntugeek> I think we need to take the leadership applications and make a list for sure.
<jdong> yes
<forumsmatthew> are those who applied here?
<Vorian_> i'll speak for jacobmp92[away]  - he's in school right now
<PriceChild> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=289810
<ubuntugeek> we might have to do the electing at the next time.. to give more ample time for people to attend.
<jdong> forumsmatthew: let's first make a list of everyone and do one-by-one
<PriceChild> that thread contains applications only
<ubuntugeek> but we can get a more official list going now
<jdong> shall we go down the list in order of application?
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Current meeting: Forum Council | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 09 Jan 21:00 UTC: Community Council | 10 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 11 Jan 21:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 16 Jan 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 17 Jan 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu
<PriceChild> jdong, ok so starting with plb: http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=1695126&postcount=2
<jdong> is plb present?
<PriceChild> I don't think many are jd
<jdong> it looks that way :-/
<PriceChild> any comments on plb?
<jdong> ok, different approach: who is here seeking application as a Team Leader?
<forumsmatthew> this is an interesting quote from his application
<jdong> so far, I see Vorian_
<forumsmatthew> "the majority of my posts here are more or less rants in the Cafe and suggestions for development"
<Vorian_> jdong: I'm shooting for secretary... not team leader
<jdong> Vorian_: ah, ok
<jdong> forumsmatthew: yeah, I saw that too
<PriceChild> I'm much more impressed by Lord Illian's application which is up next http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=1695147&postcount=3
<PriceChild> it is also for abs beginners against plb (and also hardware)
<ubuntugeek> pricechild: I like his application as wel
<ubuntugeek> well*
<forumsmatthew> he's been an active member for some time and a good one as well
<ubuntugeek> Anyone else have comments on him?
<jdong> he looks ideal for beginners
<PriceChild> Lord Illian has also made a sustained positive contribution to the forums
<ubuntugeek> I'll make a list of people then we can make a finalization after we go through the list
<jdong> he seems to have the motivation to help beginners
<ubuntugeek> Ok i'll mark him as a candidate for beginners area
<ubuntugeek> Next, we have http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=1695371&postcount=4
<ubuntugeek> for beginners as well
<PriceChild> jeffrc313
<forumsmatthew> I think he has the potential to be a good team member
<PriceChild> he's reasonably active it seems
<ubuntugeek> Matthew: I agree
<jdong> he's not the most active ever, but does regularly visit the forums
<jdong> I find his signature... questionable though?
<PriceChild> Checking his last posts though... are mostly asking for support
<PriceChild> not much giving
<jdong> my site: www.theironknuckle.com
<jdong> "I drop science like girls be droppin' babies"
<jdong> hmm
<ubuntugeek> hmm yeah..
<jdong> the site doesn't load
<ubuntugeek> ok lets move on
<ubuntugeek> http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=1695486&postcount=5
<ubuntugeek> dillbertdabomb
<PriceChild> didn't follow instructions on format of application :P
<forumsmatthew> asks to be a member, he didn't apply for leadership
<jdong> PriceChild: I was gonna say :)
<forumsmatthew> "I would like to be a team member for the beginner section."
<PriceChild> ah ok
<ubuntugeek> dillbert is just wanted to be a team member soo
<PriceChild> shall we move on
<jdong> yes, doesn't seem like leader is the role he wanted
<ubuntugeek> http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=1695640&postcount=6
<ubuntugeek> raqball
<ubuntugeek> unanswered posts area
<forumsmatthew> has serious potential
<jdong> I like his dedication to unanswered posts
<ubuntugeek> Ok just wants to be a team member as well
<forumsmatthew> looking through his posts now...
<ubuntugeek> at least thats how i took his answer to the 1. question
<forumsmatthew> they don't really match his application statements
<jdong> ubuntugeek: it seems like he's ok with being either
<ubuntugeek> or is he saying he wants to be a team leader and wants to be on a team?
<ubuntugeek> ok
<forumsmatthew> he didn't lie, he has just been more active other ways
<jdong> ubuntugeek: all the credentials he gave seem to be leadership-oriented
<forumsmatthew> mainly cafe since early November
<ubuntugeek> good candidate for the answered team leader then?
<PriceChild> let put him on the list? :)
<jdong> wait a sec please
* jdong still looking through the posts
<PriceChild> hehe :)
<jdong> seeing a lot of chatter and not much support
<PriceChild> doesn't seem to be the most helpful
<PriceChild> yeah
<jdong> currently digging to nov 1st
<ubuntugeek> jdong agreed
<forumsmatthew> @jdong agreed
<Bonzodog> Can I just a very slightly in-a-roundabout-way related question?
<Bonzodog> +ask
<ubuntugeek> lets put him on and move on we can come back to a more detailed approach after we get the list
<PriceChild> !ask|Bonzodog
<jdong> yeah
<PriceChild> no ubotu :P
<Bonzodog> Is there any plans to ressurect a team related to the UDSF?
<jdong> Bonzodog: please put that on the agenda if you want it discussed
<jdong> it really isn't related :)
<jdong> even in the most roundabout ways
<PriceChild> David Corrales  http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=1695718&postcount=7 also seems to be mainly asking to be a member
<forumsmatthew> agreed
<ubuntugeek> agreed
<jdong> k, skip
<jdong> let's process the leaders first
<ubuntugeek> http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=1695911&postcount=8
<PriceChild> rekahsoft http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=1695911&postcount=8
<jdong> his application looks very nice
<PriceChild> not many posts in abs beginners...
<PriceChild> mostly in gaming and leisure / programming
<ubuntugeek> mostly posts in gaming it appears
<jdong> a young one, too
<PriceChild> not the youngest on the list ;)
<ubuntugeek> i think the people applying for a position need to be pretty active in the area
<forumsmatthew> that would seem appropriate
<ubuntugeek> so.. with that said lets move on to the next one
<ubuntugeek> http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=1696101&postcount=9
* jdong answers his doom question anyway :D
<ubuntugeek> djsroknrol
<ubuntugeek> unanswered or beginners area
<PriceChild> not very active... and latest are chatty
<PriceChild> well not the least active though
<ubuntugeek> agreed
<jdong> so far I'm not seeing anyone near Lord Illian's activity level
<PriceChild> agreed
<forumsmatthew> jdong: agreed
<PriceChild> whoa!!!
<PriceChild> Vorian_, has a big point to make
<ubuntugeek> http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=1696423&postcount=10
* PriceChild pushes Vorian_ onto the stage
<ubuntugeek> blendmaster
<Vorian_> djsroknrol is a mod on mod free
<ubuntugeek> beginner forums team
<jdong> Vorian_: good point, thanks for bringing it up
<forumsmatthew> @Vorian_ hmm
<jdong> though we need to investigate more into that
<ubuntugeek> most of his posts are in the beginners area
<jdong> I'd rather we not be labeling anyone by their out-of-forums affiliations
<ubuntugeek> anyone have thoughts on blendmaster?
<jdong> blendmaster, yet another member seeker
<ubuntugeek> ah yes
<PriceChild> "maybe" not all his posts are the most helpful
<ubuntugeek> http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=1696468&postcount=11
<jdong> (wow the forums must really hate how much we're using find all posts right now :D)
<ubuntugeek> lyceum
<ubuntugeek> unaswered team
<PriceChild> wb matthew5
<forumsmatthew> isp issues
<jdong> ubuntugeek: where'd you get unanswered team from?
<PriceChild> He seems very chatty
<Vorian_> he is active in the beginners area
<PriceChild> jdong, he says active and unanswered at hte bottom of psot
<ubuntugeek> "I have answered questions I know as I find them. If I am not selected, I would like to join the team that helps new users or the unanswered posts. I am applying here for team-leader of either."
<jdong> oh :)
<jdong> so beginners or unanswered
* jdong braces for his next suggestion
<ubuntugeek> unaswered looks good.. he seems pretty active i think
<forumsmatthew> Is he still active?
<jdong> let's quickly find all the leader-candidates by a high-bean count....
<forumsmatthew> last post is see is from November
<jdong> I'm seeing a lot of member applications so far
<ubuntugeek> jdong yeah
<jdong>  Lord Illian is a good benchmark (in my mind) of leadership candidacy
<PriceChild> kuja?
<forumsmatthew> jdong: agreed
<ubuntugeek> Lord Illian looks good yeah
<PriceChild> hehe
<jdong> kuja seems to do a lot of 64-bit work
<PriceChild> why isn't everyone like Lord Illian :)
<PriceChild> jdong, yeah
<PriceChild> not sure where else though] 
<jdong> but he's chatty too
<jdong> I don't see much else
<ubuntugeek> http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=1700569&postcount=19
<ubuntugeek> unaswered team
<ubuntugeek> jeesh i wish i could spell today lol
<jdong> we should've added "give 5 examples of posts you made that best represent your identity at the forums"
<PriceChild> I remember mr jacobmp92 from somewhere
<jdong> ubuntugeek: I'm not doing much better; this room is 50 degrees and I'm frezing my fingers off
<Vorian_> ubuntugeek: He has been a very valuable member of our loco team
<PriceChild> jacobmp92 seems quite good
* jdong sprays frozen blob of dust-off at the thermostat
<Vorian_> PriceChild: agreed
<forumsmatthew> he has several very helpful posts
<ubuntugeek> agreed ok i'll add him to my list
<ubuntugeek> http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=1703030&postcount=20
<ubuntugeek> mssever
<ubuntugeek> unanswered posts
<PriceChild> active
<jdong> one of the most elegantly organized applications to this point
<forumsmatthew> application is very promising
<forumsmatthew> I'm off to review post
<forumsmatthew> posts
<PriceChild> helpful
<jdong> helpful indeed
<jdong> most of his posts are help oriented
<forumsmatthew> I give him high marks
<ubuntugeek> ok i'll add him to the list
<PriceChild> seems to have dropped off this past month from his "4 posts a day"
<jdong> yes, high regards to this guy
<ubuntugeek> next
<ubuntugeek> http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=1703265&postcount=21
<ubuntugeek> apjone
<ubuntugeek> beginner or hardware
<jdong> PriceChild: given the december season, I can understand :)
<PriceChild> jdong, yeah :)
<Vorian_> haven't had many hardware candidates...
<ubuntugeek> seems like a good canidate for hardware
<PriceChild> yeah
<PriceChild> agreed ubijtsa2
<PriceChild> argh
<PriceChild> annying autocomplete
* jdong digs thru posts
<forumsmatthew> hardware...
<PriceChild> Nothing much in the hardware forum.... but most posts revolving around hardware
<forumsmatthew> PC yep
<jdong> he helps a lot
<jdong> answers a lot of beginner or driver related questions
<ubuntugeek> k, added to the list
<ubuntugeek> http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=1704006&postcount=22
<ubuntugeek> klaidas
<ubuntugeek> beginner
* PriceChild notices Kladias isn't online in irc - grr lol :)
<jdong> he seems active :)
<PriceChild> and sustained
<jdong> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=1985143#post1985143
<jdong> :-/
<jdong> interesting statement
<PriceChild> hmmm not the most helpful posts
<ubuntugeek> yeah
<forumsmatthew> we have better candidates
<ubuntugeek> ok lets move on
<ubuntugeek> http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=1707025&postcount=24
<ubuntugeek> wayward
<ubuntugeek> unanswered posts
<ubuntugeek> only has 9 posts
<jdong> wow
<PriceChild> impressive application but only 9 posts
<ubuntugeek> ok next
<ubuntugeek> http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=1763295&postcount=26
<ubuntugeek> bodhi.zazen
<ubuntugeek> beginner
<ubuntugeek> begineer
<ubuntugeek> bah
<ubuntugeek> lol
<PriceChild> why does he have to take on Lord Illian :(
<forumsmatthew> he's been quite impressive for some time
<ubuntugeek> matthew i agree
<PriceChild> yup
<Vorian_> lord illian can do hardware... right?
<PriceChild> hehe he gave 5 helpeful contributions ;)
<forumsmatthew> note: "Please consider my application for a position with the Beginner Area Team."
<jdong> I like his application
<ubuntugeek> me too adding him to the list
<jdong> PriceChild: it's beter than the 0 I've seen so far
<jdong> PriceChild: plus I think I haven't written more than 5 howtos either :)
<ubuntugeek> lastly
<ubuntugeek> http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=1763747&postcount=27
<ubuntugeek> saphira
<PriceChild> not active enough?
<ubuntugeek> not sure which team either
<forumsmatthew> PC: that's my thought
<jdong> short paragraph
<jdong> liberal interpretation of short paragraph :)
<Vorian_> lol
<jdong> he seems to have his way of linnking to gwos for everything
<jdong> let's look through gwos
* PriceChild runs off for a second
<jdong> and measure his contribution level there
<jdong> I have a feeling his work might be concentrated there
<jdong> grr, doesn't load
<jdong> his loss
<jdong> NEXT :)
<ubuntugeek> OK so
<ubuntugeek> these are the canidates
<ubuntugeek> beginners
<ubuntugeek> http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=1763295&postcount=26 - bodhi.zazen
<ubuntugeek> http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=1695147&postcount=3 - Lord Illidan
<ubuntugeek> hardware
<ubuntugeek> http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=1703265&postcount=21 - apjone
<ubuntugeek> Unanswered
<ubuntugeek> http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=1700569&postcount=19 - jacobmp92
<ubuntugeek> http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=1703030&postcount=20 - mssever
<jdong> good
<jdong> I think to proceed we'll need to be able to speak with these people
<ubuntugeek> The next step, lets schedule the finalization for the next meeting. This way we can give them time to bring examples along with them.
<jdong> either by IRC, interview in forum thread.... etc
<PriceChild> wb again matthew5
<ubuntugeek> The next meeting we can finalize those canidates and make sure they come to the meeting prepared with stuff to back themselves up
<jdong> yes
<ubuntugeek> sound good?
<ubuntugeek> ok
<jdong> poor forumsmatthew :)
<ubuntugeek> at the next meeting lets do that process first, then afterwards discuss the implementation of the teams
<ubuntugeek> when the new team leaders are on board
<jdong> yes
<PriceChild> agreed :)
<ubuntugeek> k
<ubuntugeek> Next
<jdong> I'd like to see team leaders involved in picking out their team
<ubuntugeek> agreed
<ubuntugeek> team leaders will be able to approve people who apply to their team via the forums user cp
<ubuntugeek> Forum Secretary Position
<ubuntugeek> two canidates
<ubuntugeek> vorian and pricechild
* Vorian_ waves
<ubuntugeek> waves
<forumsmatthew> both are good candidates
<ubuntugeek> both are good candidates
<forumsmatthew> jinx
<PriceChild> hehe... now ubuntugeek can't talk :P
<ubuntugeek> lol
<jdong> ubuntugeek ubuntugeek ubuntugeek
<jdong> or something like that :)
<ubuntugeek> ok so..
<forumsmatthew> how about something like
<jdong> battle to the death?
<forumsmatthew> tell us why to choose you
<jdong> ok, works for me
<jdong> :)
<forumsmatthew> without saying anything bad
<ubuntugeek> yep sounds good
<forumsmatthew> about the other candidate
<ubuntugeek> Vorian go for it
<Vorian_> well
<Vorian_> Like i said in my post
<PriceChild> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=323554
<Vorian_> I have gained alot from UF, and I appreciate all that I have gained
<Vorian_> I want to give back in what ever way I can...
<Vorian_> I am a manager by profession, and this kind of work is right up my alley
<Vorian_> PLUS
<Vorian_> I love Ubuntu Forums :-)
<ubuntugeek> ;)
<jdong> Vorian_: does your schedule allow you to regularly attend Forum Council meetings?
<Vorian_> I make my own schedule
<jdong> ah, ideal :)
<Vorian_> :)
<ubuntugeek> our goal is the first tuesday of every month at 16:00 utc
<ubuntugeek> ok great
<ubuntugeek> Pricechild?
<ubuntugeek> your up
<PriceChild> Vorian_, has also got a lot of experience with helping lead the Ohio LoCo
<PriceChild> When people ask me why I spend time hepling out on these forums, I normally tell them that because of the Ubuntu community, I have a completely free and feature rich computer sitting infront of me, but its more than that. Despite the reputation ubuntuforums.org has amongst a large majority of the core Ubuntu community, I'm extremely proud to have been "educated" here, and hope to give this back. Being a mod, and hopefully with this
<PriceChild>  position I want to help take ubuntuforums.org to the core group, further integration is only a good thing. Towards this aim, I'm part of the forum ambassadors project, and am opping a couple more channels on irc.
* PriceChild should have corrected spelling mistakes :P
<ubuntugeek> :)
<jdong> look who pre-authored his speech :)
<forumsmatthew> oh, man. I missed it
* PriceChild gives it to forumsmatthew 
<Vorian_> cut and paste....
* forumsmatthew kicks his isp
<Vorian_> er*lol
* jdong examines it with added scrutiny :)
<forumsmatthew> thanks, PriceChild
<ubuntugeek> guys i got a work meeting in 5.. shoot..
<ubuntugeek> jodng? thoughts
<jdong> hmm
* PriceChild posts vorian's to matthew also
<jdong> both of you are well qualified for the job
<PriceChild> lol he's gone again...
<PriceChild> poor matthew
<Vorian_> PriceChild: arm wrestle?
<ubuntugeek> I think the fairest route will be to give vorian a +1. He isn't a staff member (pricey already has fun) and this will allow for some new blood to get on the team.
* Vorian_ does a backflip
<jdong> +1, ubuntugeek; in addition a non-staff secretary has the added benefit of neutrality
<PriceChild> woo go Vorian_ :)
<forumsmatthew> He's also been around for a long time and has a good feel
* Vorian_ does a backflip again!
<forumsmatthew> +1
<ubuntugeek> great
<ubuntugeek> ok settled
<Vorian_> thanks guys!
<ubuntugeek> ok the last thing on the agenda
<frodon> congrats Vorian_ ;)
<ubuntugeek> from Henrik
<ubuntugeek> henrik you here?
<Vorian_> frodon: thanks :)
<PriceChild> ping heno,
<jdong> heno: ping, you're up :)
<ubuntugeek> Cause i gotta fly in like 1 minutes
<heno> hi folks!
<ubuntugeek> jdong. matthew can you guys finish up?
<forumsmatthew> yes
<ubuntugeek> i'll post the notes later on
<jdong> ubuntugeek: sure thing
<ubuntugeek> thanks guys
<heno> Just introducing myself really :)
<jdong> heno: we'd love to hear :)
<heno> I'd love to see some involvement from forum mods/leaders in the ISO testing of Herd 2
<heno> starting this week
<heno> (we think)
<jdong> ok
<jdong> what can we do to help with the ISO testing?
<heno> And generally you can contact me with development related items
<heno> jdong: see http://www.ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=201
<jdong> viewing it right now
<heno> I'd like help in collating the test data as it comes in
<heno> It might be just a few testers or a whole flood, who knows ;)
<jdong> first we need to get the word out more prominently
<heno> I also look forward to working with the Forum Ambassadors when they get going
<jdong> I don't think many people will find or look for that particular subforum
<heno> jdong: agreed
<jdong> forumsmatthew, PriceChild, staff, how should we go about it?
<jdong> the forums will have a large base of users willing to conduct such testing
<heno> It needs to be promoted, but a slow, rolling start is OK too
<heno> so we can figure out the mechanics of collating the data
<heno> we need to be able to trust the results also ...
<jdong> I'm currently reading the testing howto
<jdong> does testing require the instalation of ubuntu from the candidate ISO's
<jdong> or just booting them up and making sure they function
<heno> usually, yes
<jdong> ok
<heno> testing the Live CD is just the simplest test
<jdong> heno: first, I think the testing how-to needs to be tweaked a bit to be simpler to understand
<heno> installation (in various ways) is important
<jdong> exactly what is being asked
<heno> the one in the forum, or wiki (or both)?
<jdong> the one in the forum
<jdong> make it more clear what you want users to do in order to be helpful
<jdong> i.e. "find a spare computer that you can do ubuntu installations on, etc"
<heno> btw, also see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Current
<heno> the current test results page
<heno> right, I see. good point
<jdong> right now, the documents are pretty easy to understand for developers
<forumsmatthew> I think if you make it clear for people who are not used to doing this sort of thing
<forumsmatthew> how to do it
<forumsmatthew> you will get some good volunteers
<jdong> right
<heno> ok, cool
<forumsmatthew> most forums members are new at this sort of thing
<forumsmatthew> but want to help
<forumsmatthew> they just don't know how
<forumsmatthew> give clear steps and I think they will come
<heno> great, ok. I'll fix that
<jdong> we'd be glad to allow you to post a linking thread in a prominent area of the forum whenever testing is requested
<jdong> just right now, I think you'll get a lot of "huh?" and not much useful input
<heno> is there any other place we should post a basic introduction
<jdong> an introduction paragraph explaining in easy to understand terms of what ISO testing is, why it needs to be done, and what it involves from the user
<heno> the Cafe or something?
<jdong> would be nice for the howto
<heno> right
<forumsmatthew> I agree: howto
<jdong> heno: revise the testing how-to to be an easy-to-understand document
<jdong> with a quick summary at the top so users can quickly determine if they want to do it or not
<heno> yep, ok
<heno> thanks, good feedback
<jdong> then, every time a candidate CD rolls out, you can post a "ISO Testers Required" post in, say, the cafe, linking to that howto
<jdong> or perhaps such postings would be more appropriate in the Feisty Fawn development forum
<heno> Yes, I'm already a bit active there
<forumsmatthew> I think the development forum is the place where you are most likely to find people interested
<jdong> (http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=179)
<forumsmatthew> but an announement in the cafe with a link to the howto couldn't hurt
<heno> It also helps if they have some Linux familiarity too
<PriceChild> We really need to make the dev forum useful....
<jdong> right
<heno> so they can file good bug reports with logs, etc
<PriceChild> edgy's was great but feisty's been a bit pants... a project like this would help loads :)
<jdong> heno: you can request any level of experience you think appropriate, just make it clear what you expect from testers please :)
<jdong> I also noticed this from heno: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=333915
<jdong> some of that should probably be expanded or updated
<jdong> i.e. AFAIK new specs aren't gonna be accepted for feisty anymore
<jdong> bug reporting, triaging, and testing ISO images should be expanded a bit
<heno> or reworded, rather
<jdong> with more info on what would be helpful
<jdong> and in the case of triaging, how to go about it
<heno> (I posted it just yesterday)
<heno> the point is basically that there is little point suggesting new features now
<heno> but you can always start on a spec for Feisty+1
<jdong> right
<heno> I should make that more clear
<jdong> say that bluntly :)
<heno> ok
<jdong> also, reword the bug triaging stuff to be a bit more 'threatening'
<heno> IN THE FORUM THINGS NEED TO BE SAID BLUNTLY I get it ;)
<jdong> more to the likening of "if you don't help us find these bugs, don't cry about the bugs on release day"
<jdong> ;-)
<PriceChild> come on you're a dev heno, you should know that already ;)
<heno> I've lived in England too long :)
<jdong> in any communicatons medium, people will skim and read with ADHD
<heno> yeah, need to sharpen my terseness a bit
<PriceChild> big bold red writing helps I find :P
<jdong> heno: at one point my backports guidelines were bumped to size-108 fonts
<jdong> because nobody would freakin listen :)
<heno> heh, ok
<heno> right, I think that's all from me for now
<jdong> heno: and whenever you see the forums having unholy behavior (using the forums as a bug tracker, posting unsafe checkinstalled debs or other unsafe instructions, etc) please let us know :)
<jdong> we'd like to keep that sort of behavior controlled
<heno> I'll check in on these meetings regularly
<jdong> don't be afraid to use the Report Posts button when you see stuff like that, heno
<heno> right, ok
<heno> I might apply for mod rights in the feisty forum too
<heno> (as I have in the ISO testing forum)
<jdong> heno: right now we have technical issues with vbulletin and making limited-mods
<jdong> heno: you say you have mod access in iso testing?
<heno> yes
<jdong> ok, perhaps things have changed :)
<heno> and I've used it sucessfully
<jdong> I +1 your mod rights to feisty forum
<jdong> ubuntugeek will have to apply that when I talk to him later
<jdong> ok, that takes care of the official agenda
<heno> right
<jdong> right?
<PriceChild> jdong, could we also maybe have the forum council subforum on the frontpage?
<vorian_> according to the wiki yes
<jdong> PriceChild: that's stuff you talk to Ryan about :D
<PriceChild> hehe ok
<jdong> I don't like touching that part of admincp :D
<PriceChild> will ask him later
<jdong> there is one more thing I'd like to take this time to discuss....
<PriceChild> jdong, what do you touch? ;)
<jdong> PriceChild: I spent a good portion of yesterday reading vbulletin documentation
<jdong> so I'm getting better darnit :)
<vorian_> lol
<PriceChild> he he i was only joking sorry :)
<jdong> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=330230
<jdong> we still have this unaddressed res center thread
<jdong> regarding where to draw the line with spamming
<vorian_> it is borderline....
<jdong> vorian_ indeed it is, but in this case the user seems to have good intentions at heart
<jdong> and from that thread, he is cooperative
<vorian_> agreed, I see no self promotion
<vorian_> it is for the betterment of ubuntu
<jdong> currently we have very weak/vague guidelines as to advertising vs spam
<jdong> "If a thread is spam it will be moved to the forum jail."
<vorian_> what about community market
<vorian_> ?
<jdong> vorian_ that says "please do not spam" :D
<PriceChild> I think its best we leave it to staff's discression
<jdong> aye, I think it should be left at the staff's discretion
* vorian_ sorry
<jdong> I was thinking obtaining staff approval too
<jdong> particularly low-bean-count people
<heno> Perhaps let him re-post a slightly altered version, say without the '$$$'
<heno> at some clause about good taste to border-line spam case decisions
<heno> add, rather
<jdong> right
<jdong> I'm all for allowing tousimis to continue with his service
<PriceChild> I'm happy with him also
<jdong> so far I'm gonna reply to him that (1) He may continue promoting/developing/offering his service (2) Spam vs not spam decisions will be made on a per-case basis at the discretion of the staff member handling the thread (3) If you have low-bean count it's helpful to first clear it by PM'ing an administrator or staff member
<jdong> any objections?
<PriceChild> in addition to no. 1
<PriceChild> the promoting in the appropriate subforum
<PriceChild> and signature
<jdong> (marketplace?)
<PriceChild> yup
<jdong> what currently happens when a user is banned?
<jdong> are they unable to log in?
<PriceChild> depends on the type of ban?
<jdong> spam infractions?
<PriceChild> that's just a ban on the name
<jdong> the OP seems to state that he couldn't read his PM's?
<jdong> once he was banned
<PriceChild> yeah
<jdong> heh
<PriceChild> when you log in because of spam infraction you can't see aything
<jdong> can you see your infraction notices
<PriceChild> jdong, http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=332163
<PriceChild> Nope
<jdong> and can you contact staff members for a rebuttal?
<PriceChild> vorian_, sorry but you can't see that link
<PriceChild> No
<jdong> uhm, lovely :)
<PriceChild> jdong, my issues with it were outlined int hat thread :)
<vorian_> PriceChild: :)
<jdong> ok
<jdong> I think we need to refine the behavior of infraction-based bans
<PriceChild> uip
<jdong> but at a later meeting when all staff members are present
<jdong> it simply doesn't make sense at the moment
<PriceChild> jdong, arg rav tux has changed his avatar again lol :P
<vorian_> hehe
<PriceChild> ubuntugeek mentioned making another meeting within a week or two because of the approval of matthew and mikeb
<PriceChild> we can sort things out then :)
<PriceChild> So....
* jdong still typing out a flowery version of what he said
<vorian_> jdong: Does this council have a launchpad entry?
<jdong> vorian_: err i dont know :D
<jdong> lol
<vorian_> hehe
<jdong> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=1989441#post1989441 , my response
<PriceChild> looks good :)
<jdong> ok, anything further?
<PriceChild> vorian_, not yet no
<PriceChild> Im' happy :)
<jdong> I'd like to play starcraft on my large screen
<vorian_> jd
<PriceChild> I'll post logs to the subforum and wiki
<jdong> ok, PriceChild
<jdong> and vorian_ gets to have fun too :D
<PriceChild> seen as vorian_ got d/c and missed out bits :P
<jdong> yep
<jdong> ok, anything futher?
<vorian_> PriceChild: thanks
<jdong> can I bang the hammer thingie?
* vorian_ stands in applause!
* jdong bangs hammer
<jdong> meeting is over, thanks to those who showed up and contributed
<vorian_> thanks everyone!
<jdong> next meeting scheduled.... err... whenever :)
<vorian_> that will be a fun one
<jdong> (we will likely have a follow-up meeting)
<PriceChild> 13th of february
<PriceChild> although there'll be one inbetween
<jdong> PriceChild: yeah
<jdong> anyway
<jdong> we can hammer out the agendas later :)
<jdong> alright, starcraft time :)
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 09 Jan 21:00 UTC: Community Council | 10 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 11 Jan 21:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 16 Jan 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 17 Jan 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 18 Jan 08:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team
<nixternal> @schedule chicago
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Chicago: 09 Jan 15:00: Community Council | 10 Jan 06:00: Edubuntu | 11 Jan 15:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 16 Jan 14:00: Technical Board | 17 Jan 14:00: Edubuntu | 18 Jan 02:00: Ubuntu Development Team
<dennda> @schedule berlin
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Berlin: 09 Jan 22:00: Community Council | 10 Jan 13:00: Edubuntu | 11 Jan 22:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 16 Jan 21:00: Technical Board | 17 Jan 21:00: Edubuntu | 18 Jan 09:00: Ubuntu Development Team
<amachu> hi
<amachu> its 1 AM
<amachu> in India
<licio> @schedule Sao_Paulo
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Sao_Paulo: 09 Jan 19:00: Community Council | 10 Jan 10:00: Edubuntu | 11 Jan 19:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 16 Jan 18:00: Technical Board | 17 Jan 18:00: Edubuntu | 18 Jan 06:00: Ubuntu Development Team
<emonkey> @schedule zurich
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Zurich: 09 Jan 22:00: Community Council | 10 Jan 13:00: Edubuntu | 11 Jan 22:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 16 Jan 21:00: Technical Board | 17 Jan 21:00: Edubuntu | 18 Jan 09:00: Ubuntu Development Team
<mr_pouit> @schedule paris
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Paris: 09 Jan 22:00: Community Council | 10 Jan 13:00: Edubuntu | 11 Jan 22:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 16 Jan 21:00: Technical Board | 17 Jan 21:00: Edubuntu | 18 Jan 09:00: Ubuntu Development Team
<JoeyStanford> @schedule Denver
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Denver: 09 Jan 14:00: Community Council | 10 Jan 05:00: Edubuntu | 11 Jan 14:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 16 Jan 13:00: Technical Board | 17 Jan 13:00: Edubuntu | 18 Jan 01:00: Ubuntu Development Team
<frederific> @schedule london
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/London: 09 Jan 21:00: Community Council | 10 Jan 12:00: Edubuntu | 11 Jan 21:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 16 Jan 20:00: Technical Board | 17 Jan 20:00: Edubuntu | 18 Jan 08:00: Ubuntu Development Team
<jrib> @schedule boston
<jrib> @schedule new_york
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/New_York: 09 Jan 16:00: Community Council | 10 Jan 07:00: Edubuntu | 11 Jan 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 16 Jan 15:00: Technical Board | 17 Jan 15:00: Edubuntu | 18 Jan 03:00: Ubuntu Development Team
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Current meeting: Community Council | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 10 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 11 Jan 21:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 16 Jan 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 17 Jan 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 18 Jan 08:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team
<ypsila> moin together from Germany
<juliux> moin from east germany;)
<kaffke> moin from west germany
<TheSheep> moin from east (of) Germany
<blizzzek> moin from south Germany
<ypsila> :-D
<atoponce> afternoon from the west of germany... wayyyy west. :)
<jihi> moin from central gemany
<popey> moin fron south of my desk
<Zerlinna> *lol* moin from germany here too :D
<Seveas> Let's hope the CC wakes up..
<emonkey> good evening from switzerland
<smurf_> Seveas: do you have mobile numbers?
<Seveas> smurf_, no
<juliux> hi smurf_
<dennda> hi from germany as well
<Seveas> emonkey, heh, I'll be in switzerland at the end of january
<datten> moin :)
<ubuntugeek> howdy all
<glatzor> evening juliux and smurf_
<emonkey> Seveas, nice in which area?
<Seveas> geneva
<MikeB-> greetings all
<gnomefreak> dsas: welcome
<emonkey> Seveas, ou at the other end of the country... :/
<theravingsociety> good evening from munich ;-)
<dennda> ah hi smurf_ :)
<Adri2000> hi everyone
<dsas> hi gnomefreak
<Vorian_> hello all!
<Lutin> hi there
<mr_pouit> hi there
<datten> so many krauts! O_O *g*
<MehdiHassanpour> hi all
<jacobmp92> hello all
<mako> greetings all
<Seveas> hey mako!
<forumsmatthew> hello
<juliux> hi mako
<gnomefreak> hi mako and elmo
<TheInfinity> ... hello
<elmo> sabdfl is in a meeting still, I'll go interrupt him in a couple of minutes if he's still not free
<mako> that's fine
<frederific> evenin'
<Zerlinna> hi kwwii :)
<mako> i'm going to finish catching up on CC mail
<gnomefreak> topic
<kwwii> howdy Zerlinna ;-)
<Seveas> elmo, cjwatson ack'ed as well so maybe we can get him on board?
<elmo> nah, colin's been travelling to/from london today, he can't make it, unfortunately
<Seveas> ah ok
<Seveas> then we wait ;)
<elmo> can we do anything in the meantime?
<Seveas> "Dennis Kaarsemaker
<Seveas> 
<Seveas> Delegating membership approvals and fine-tuning the new member process
<Seveas> This was discussed at UDS and I'd like to hear about the progress"
<ypsila> let's have a drink together?
<Seveas> basically: IS there progress?
<Seveas> if not, then we should contonue discussion via e-mail, not in here I think
<ubuntugeek> Hi
<jenda> hello
<mako> ubuntugeek: hola :)
<datten> hi there GraveDigger :)
<GraveDigger> hello there
<GraveDigger> :)
<ypsila> GraveDigger: nosy?
<auge> Hello
<GraveDigger> ypsila: with cheese?
<MikeB-> any other Ubuntus in Las Vegas for CES?
<elmo> mako: you want to take that one?
<atoponce> no, but i wish i could've been there this year
<elmo> oh, I know what we could do, even if Mark doesn't turn up, I checked out the threads on the two FC folks, and we can probably go forward with that
<forumsmatthew> we are both here
<forumsmatthew> me and MikeB
<ubuntugeek> elmo: good
<ubuntugeek> I'll also vouch for vorian's membership .. i gotta leave in 15 minutes :)
* Vorian_ hugs ubuntugeek !
<mako> elmo: sure
<ubuntugeek> and also Zenwhen for his membership
<mako> basically, memeberhip approval delegation had already happened
<carlos> elmo: would be possible to handle 'Localisation / Translation Team Leader' position today? (Is the first time I attend this kind of meeting so I'm not sure the procedure too much...)
<PriceChild> I'll vouch for Vorian_
<mako> it happened with both kubuntu and edubuntu councils
<ubuntugeek> mako: ok thanks fine.. is it possible todo the FC stuff today?
<Seveas> PriceChild, please wait until that comes up in the agenda
* Vorian_ hugs PriceChild 
<GraveDigger> ypsila: of course i am
<Seveas> mako, any other councils in the picture for delegation (xubuntu, forums etc...)?
<GraveDigger> ypsila: i always am :>
<mako> ubuntugeek: sure, if everything is set to go, that's fine.. if not, it'll be fint to talk
<mako> Seveas: right
<lophyte> hey folks
<ubuntugeek> mako: yeah both people got overwhelming +1's so..
<mako> so the goal of the proposal was to help document the process as it already existed
<mako> ubuntugeek: great, then we're ready :)
<mako> ubuntugeek: sounds good, we can do that first, or as soon as mark shows up
<ubuntugeek> mako: ok thanks
<LaserJock> Seveas: MOTU Council is just waiting on final approval of CC or TB (I think TB), I believe
<mdke> I think further delegation of membership should have more discussion, isn't there an incomplete spec about it?
<mako> Seveas: the goal was to codify/document the process and to expand it to more teams
<mako> we've said we want to do it for the forums council as soon as we can get the council itself up to speed on our processes and standard for membership
<mdke> (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MembershipManagement)
<JoeyStanford> mkde, yes there is a spec.
<JoeyStanford> we worked on it at UDS MTV
<mdke> s/incomplete/very incomplete
<mako> we've also said we want to wait on the loco team council, but would like to soon
<mako> mdke: it was documented as part of another spec i think
<JoeyStanford> also related to the CC spec as well
<JoeyStanford> Mako, you, I and other spoke in the big conf room about this
<mako> i mean, it's probably incomplete there too :)
<JoeyStanford> agreed
* mako nods to JoeyStanford 
<mako> anyway, it's something we're already doing, and would like to do more of
* OgMaciel waves at JoeyStanford
<Seveas> ok, so discussing it now is rather pointless as it needs to wait for more work, right?
<mako> so we should document it to make it easier to do so
* JoeyStanford waves at Og.
<mdke> I need to add my objections to increasing delegation further to that spec
<OgMaciel> JoeyStanford: any more magazine articles?  ;)
<mako> Seveas: i don't think there's a lot of discussion that needs, perhaps someone just needs to write it
<Seveas> heh ok
<Seveas> moving on then?
<mako> unfortunately for me, that someone is probably me
<mako> yes
<MikeB-> mako: :)
<Seveas> ok, forums council then (ubuntugeek has limited time)?
<mako> so we have a quorate CC
<Seveas> as soon as sabdfl arrives
<Seveas> (cjwatson's not here)
* mako nods
<LaserJock> sort of OT: have CC and TB nominations been done already?
* OgMaciel can only stay for another 40 minutes
<Seveas> LaserJock, CC definitely not, TB is for the TB meeting
<elmo> mako: I've checked with sabdfl, and he's happy for us two to finish the FC stuff
<ubuntugeek> elmo: awesome
<mako> elmo: great
<mako> is matthew here?
<forumsmatthew> I'm here
<forumsmatthew> unstable connection, though
<ubuntugeek> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=317446 <- matthews thread
<ubuntugeek> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=317445 <- mike's thread
* mako is reading now...
<mako> wow
<mako> forumsmatthew, MikeB-: a little ego boost i suppose :)
<ubuntugeek> See mako, we dont always select bad people .. hah
<mako> ubuntugeek: hey man, i voted for them two weeks ago :)
<MikeB-> lol, I bow before Matthew support. He is a true leader in the community
<mako> great, +1 for both from me and for the procedure
<forumsmatthew> MikeB-, :)
<ubuntugeek> mako: Yeah I know.. :)
<mako> elmo: ?
<elmo> +1
<Seveas> ok, awesome!
<ubuntugeek> great
<Seveas> congrats to both
<ubuntugeek> glad thats completed
<ubuntugeek> thanks all
<forumsmatthew> thank you!
<elmo> ok, so sabdfl finally got free, he's on his way home to join the meeting from there
<MikeB-> thanks
<Vorian_> congrats forumsmatthew and MikeB- !
<Seveas> elmo, col
<elmo> he should be here in 10 mins or so.  sorry about this
<Seveas> cool even
<ubuntugeek> grats mikeb and matthew
<Seveas> we can do the translations bit without him
<ypsila> no problem
<Seveas> carlos is here
<ubuntugeek> Ok i am out of here.. see you all later
<carlos> hi
<Seveas> amachu and Gwaihir as well :)
<Gwaihir> hi all
<mako> awesome
<Zelut> MikeB-: congrats. now if we can get you to find some time for the Utah Team as well ;)
<carlos> and OgMaciel (is not directly involved right now, but is interested in the discussion)
<MikeB-> Zelut: my schedule should better soon
<Seveas> carlos, so, what's the status, what do you want to get accomplished today?
<jenda> congrats forumsmatthew, MikeB- :)
<mako> yes, congrats forumsmatthew and MikeB-
<carlos> well, I was asked to write the requirements from the point of view of Rosetta
<mako> and THANK YOU ubuntugeek
<ubuntugeek> np..
<carlos> those are now in the wiki
<rpereir1> forumsmatthew, MikeB-: congrats!
<forumsmatthew> thank you everyone for your support!
<ubuntugeek> btw, our first FC meeting went rather well today.. so yay!
<mako> ubuntugeek: for your heroic patience with us, and of course for the forums :)
<ubuntugeek> :)
<ubuntugeek> thanks for putting up with me on those phone calls
<ubuntugeek> :)
<carlos> so I guess next step is to decide whether we can elect someone to take care of the position or ask for interested people on it
<emonkey> uh netsplit :(
<mako> i see the lack of a strong connection between the cc and forums as the single worst mistake that this group has ever made (except maybe not noticing the importance of the forums in the first place)
<MikeB-> firnd netsplit I have seen on freenode
<TheInfinity> yea! right moment ;)
<ubuntugeek> mako: :)
<ubuntugeek> mako: well hopefully we are overcoming that
<mako> so this is really really good news :)
<mdke> poor carlos!
<mako> man, that puts me in a good mood
<jenda> MikeB-: woohoo, enjoy - it's never quite like the first time.
<MikeB-> lol
<ubuntugeek> see ya all later
<FeistyFawn> err ok
<FeistyFawn> I keep getting disconnected :/
<gnomefreak> netsplits
<Seveaz> ah
<gnomefreak> last time flood
<carlos> hi
<jacobmp92> @FeistyFawn: looks like there was a server split, i got disconnected also
<carlos> I was disconnected
<mako> alright
<Seveaz> carlos: several of us were
<carlos> so what's the last thing you got?
<Seveaz> That you wrote things on the wiki
<mako> "so I guess next step"
<emonkey> <carlos> so I guess next step is to decide whether we can elect someone to take care of the position or ask for interested people on it
<Seveaz> well, 2 people have interest in that position, but how comfortable are we with someone who is not a developer doing these things?
<carlos> Seveaz: that's not a developer position at all
* mako nods to Seveaz, carlos 
<carlos> Seveaz: the profile is for a translator
<Seveaz> carlos: true, but the person in charge needs to know how the ubuntu development process works
<carlos> of course, knowing how Ubuntu works is also a good thing
<carlos> Seveaz: OgMaciel said that he would be also interested on helping there if it's a team of people instead of just one person
<OgMaciel> yup
<Seveas> I think having a team would be a good thing anyway
<carlos> and I think, if he's interested, that would fit that requirement
<carlos> Seveas: me too
<mako> i think having a couple people would be ideal
<OgMaciel> carlos: have the 2 other interested guys read the document you wrote?
<carlos> amachu, Gwaihir?
<OgMaciel> carlos: yup
<OgMaciel> are they here?
<Gwaihir> yes yes...
<carlos> OgMaciel: well, I'm asking them because I don't know
<OgMaciel> Gwaihir: ;)
<Gwaihir> I'm rfollowing the discussion
<OgMaciel> Gwaihir: maybe you should tell us what you think of it?
<Gwaihir> I think that having a team of 2/3 people
<Gwaihir> would be better
<Gwaihir> and a easier work
<Gwaihir> coordinating all the teams in rosetta could be hard
<mdke> if it would be a question of a team of a few people, I would consider throwing in my hat to help
<carlos> agreed
<Gwaihir> I don't actually get really what the work would be
<Seveas> Gwaihir, then why did you apply? :)
<Gwaihir> but I don't think that "a developer experience" is neede
<mako> Gwaihir: aren't you volunteering?
<Gwaihir> Seveas: I did get it...
<mdke> as I understand it, it's a question of establishing some guidance for teams to apply quality control and to liaise between teams and the developers on features in Rosetta
<OgMaciel> mdke: yes
<mako> mdke: yes, that's my understanding as well
<carlos> mdke: I think so, yes
<carlos> and poke us (Rosetta developers) to make your life more easy
<Gwaihir> if that's the point... it's clear
<mdke> Gwaihir has pretty good experience from that point of view from the italian team and working with Gnome upstream. he's active in the international Ubuntu translators community too.
<JoeyStanford> For the record I like the idea of a rosetta translation lead for Ubuntu.  However, I am wondering if it's too much for one person.
<OgMaciel> sounds good to me
<carlos> so we have a single point of contact with Ubuntu translators
<OgMaciel> JoeyStanford: my reason for "stepping down"
<marola> hi people
<JoeyStanford> Og: ah
<Gwaihir> Joey: I think so too
<mdke> what's the CC's role in this process? It sounds to me like carlos and danilo are probably the best people to take this forward
<OgMaciel> JoeyStanford: this is defintely something a family guy wants to take on while having a full-time job  ;)
<carlos> so I guess all agree in having a couple of persons in that position
<OgMaciel> definitely noyt
<Seveas> mdke, someone needs to be appointed and they have no idea who'd be suitable
<mdke> Seveas: they = ?
<carlos> mdke: well, CC asked us to assist you defining the requirements
<sabdfl> evening all
<sabdfl> sorry i'm late
<Seveas> mdke, carlos & co, the launchpad people
<Seveas> hi mark
<mdke> I think it's more likely that carlos and danilo have a better idea of suitability, tbh
<mako> mdke: i think tht carlos feels that having it be a cc appointed position will help make it more attractive
<mako> sabdfl: not a problem
<mdke> ah, sure. I can see that
<JoeyStanford> mkde, I agree.
<mako> sabdfl: we've put the forusm council issue to rest
<mdke> but they need to drive this, IMO
<MikeB-> evening Mark
<JoeyStanford> mdke, I agree with that as well.
<mako> sabdfl: matthew and mikeb had only positive responses (and lots of them)
<carlos> and we don't think we should take the final decision, we are not even Ubuntu members, but we can assist you
<OgMaciel> I think that if Gwaihir has all of these baggage someone (forgot who) said he has, he could most likely get this thing rolling
<rpereir1> evening  Mark.
<JoeyStanford> mkde, as long as it allows the Carlos and Danillo to free up and do real launchpad work.
<mako> carlos: how about this, you've got a list of people who are interested and the idea that it might work in the team
<Gwaihir> OgMaciel: maybe...
<mdke> JoeyStanford: it's mDKe (for the hilight). But yeah, I was only referring to the question of taking the agenda item forward
<mako> carlos: why don't you talk to them, make sure everyone understands what is necessary.. once you and the candidates have a situation that makes you (and hopefully them) happy, you tell us and we'll make it official
<OgMaciel> Gwaihir: together with some more people
<Gwaihir> OgMaciel: that's better ;)
<OgMaciel> :)
<OgMaciel> I agree with mako's idea
<carlos> mdke, mako: Ok
<carlos> I will handle that
<mako> carlos: we've already done the first step of helping scare up candidates.. now i don't think there's anything we can do until you give us something we can make a decision on
<OgMaciel> and the meeting can continue
<mako> carlos: great :)
<mako> carlos: cool! i'm looking forward to finishing thi sup
<carlos> I guess there are 4 interested persons and three of them already agreed on working in a team
<OgMaciel> :)
<carlos> so it shouldn't be complicate
* JoeyStanford is just going to call mdke Matt from now on :-)
<mako> carlos: sounds like you have a good idea of what to do
<mako> great
<mako> what's next?
<carlos> ok
<mdke> JoeyStanford: tab completion is your friend
<carlos> thank you
<Seveas> Wiki Licensing
<Seveas> mdke has the mic
<JoeyStanford> Matt, I'm on XP at work so no luck using besirc for that :-(
<ypsila> :-(
<mdke> I don't have much to say on WikiLicensing, except that it's 15 months old now, please approve it!
<sabdfl> very pleased to see the discussion re forums council appointments, so +1 from me on those
<carlos> OgMaciel, mdke, Gwaihir, amachu: I will send an email tomorrow about this to see whether we have an agreement, ok?
<mako> mdke: i've read the spec, i like it
<OgMaciel> carlos: sounds great buddy!
<Gwaihir> carlos: ok!
<mako> mdke: i think that at this point, CC-BY-SA is the only one that makese sense
<mdke> the only outstanding item is whether it should apply to wiki.ubuntu.com
<mako> +1 from me
<mdke> I think it probably shouldn't
<mdke> given all the code, artwork, etc likely to be found there, for which a more subtle approach is probably needed.
<mdke> But I *really* need to get this sorted on the documentation wiki
<jenda> mdke: meaning giving more flexibility on the wiki? (such as, allow people to specify licences of the content they add)
<mako> mdke: i tend to think it should... but also think it doesn't matter and would be a bigger pain
<mako> mdke: doesn't matter as much
<forumsmatthew> sabdfl: thank you (re: forums council appointment...that was me)
<mdke> mako: nod
<Seveas> ok, so you baically just need elmo and sabdfl to give a +1?
<mdke> the urgent need is to sort the documentation wiki out, I'm happy to discuss the main wiki another time
<Seveas> (mako already did ;))
<mdke> Seveas: hopefully yeah
<sabdfl> mdke: i don't understand, you say that CC-BY-SA is *not* appropriate for wiki.ubuntu.com?
<Seveas> sabdfl, the wiki contains more than docs (code, artwork) for which it may be less than appropriate
<mdke> sabdfl: I'm saying it might not be, I don't know. I'm happy to be guided by the CC on that
<sabdfl> ok, so this proposal is specifically the documentation wiki
<sabdfl> i think it makes more sense to be a general "all ubuntu wiki's" proposal
<sabdfl> an its possible to carve out images and code
<sabdfl> CC-BY-SA for commentary, opinions
<sabdfl> GPL for new code unless otherwise stated
<Seveas> sabdfl, that could be done later, but mdke wants the doc wiki to move forward after 15 months standstill wrt this
<LaserJock> one slight point would be that CC-BY-SA is not very good for me on wiki.u.c
<sabdfl> Follow-on licence for code that extends an existing work (i.e. patches to BSD are BSD)
<mako> i don't see any reason why images on the ubuntu wiki should be under less free licenses
<mako> LaserJock: why is that?
<sabdfl> nonetheless, i think it's inevitable that docs include some code, even if it's (da)sh
<mdke> that's ok though, because it's just in the context of docs
<LaserJock> mako: the Ubuntu Packaging Guide (which is GPL'd) relies a fair amount on stuff written in the MOTU wiki
<LaserJock> mako: I could work around that I suppose, but I'd have to think about it
<LaserJock> anyway, that's just one corner case
<sabdfl> is Canonical the ultimate copyright owner, and thus able to grant exceptions?
<mdke> debateable.
<mdke> I wouldn't be very happy with any solution involving exceptions or carveouts to carry over to help.ubuntu.com/community though, it would be over complicated
<mako> LaserJock: or you could relicense under CC-BY-SA, which isn't so bad
<mako> sabdfl: no, probably not
<LaserJock> mako: except I then become incompatile with debian docs
<mako> LaserJock: ah, ok
<LaserJock> mako: rewriting Debian Policy wouldn't be so much fun ;-)
<mako> LaserJock: what do you mean, incompatible with being in debian or incompatible with a particular doc in debian you are syharing text with
<LaserJock> mako: I use parts of Debian Policy
<mako> LaserJock: oh, ok, and the license there is?
<LaserJock> all Debian devel docs that I know of are GPL
<mako> sabdfl: i agree that we should think about this for the main wiki
<LaserJock> I mean, this is just one case, I can work it out whatever you guys decide. I just wanted to bring up that sometimes it gets tricky
<mako> sabdfl: but mdke has been very patiently trying to get approval for the documenation wiki for a very long time and i don't think we're ready to make a decision on the main wiki today.. because of things like LaserJock's situation that we need to sort out
<mdke> we can do a separate spec
<mako> i think we should vote on this for the documentation wiki so that mdke can move forward today
<mako> mdke: right, and then do a main wiki spec where we can hash out these issues
<mdke> right, that's what I meant
<mako> i'd like to do it, to have the two under compatible licenses and for a whole set of other issues
<mako> but lets do the easy stuff today and identify the other issues for later
<mdke> elmo, sabdfl?
<sabdfl> ok, +1 from me on CC-BY-SA for the documentation wiki, and thanks mdke for your patience :-)
<mako> mdke: yes :)
<elmo> fine by me
<Seveas> great!
<mako> brilliant
<mdke> thanks very much indeed.
<Seveas> mdke, good luck :)
<mdke> did you see those 15 kilos fall off my mind over there?
<rpereir1> :-)
<mdke> :)
<Seveas> Zerlinna, you're up next
<Zerlinna> ok
<mdke> the spec envisages another spamathon by me to let everyone know, so apologies in advance for that.
<Seveas> (kubuntu-de mailinglist)
<Zerlinna> Hi, my  name is Mirjam Wckerlin, I'm the team contact for the german-speaking Kubuntu Community at kubuntu-de.net
<Zerlinna> By now, our community has over 5000 registered users, we maintain a forum, a package archive with up-to-date kubuntu-packages and the german translation of UWN (starting from UWN issue 25). So, de facto we're already working as a local Community Team, and that's why we would like to get official approval in order to provide even better support to our users. We have nothing against a collaboration with ubuntuusers.de, there is just
<Zerlinna> also a need for a german kubuntu site to give the best support to our users and also to the kubuntu project. One of the first steps in becoming official is to get an kubuntu-cc@lists.ubuntu.com.
<Zerlinna> I made the request for our team, but the response was rather negative: we were asked if we could produce enough specific traffic, and if we had considered using the ubuntu-de list. IMO it makes no sense to give kubuntu-specific support on an ubuntu-list. Especially for new kubuntu users it may be much easier to find the right place for support if we had our own list. If every Kubuntu Team has to argue and fight before even having a
<Zerlinna> mailing list, I don't see a chance that there will ever be a Kubuntu Loco Team, which is IMO not only a big disservice for the kubuntu users but also for the project itself. This kind of chasing windmills is annoying for people who just want to do their work and will make a lot of valuable and active contributors from the community think about leaving.
<mdke> Zerlinna: can you explain your teams' relationship with kubuntu.de?
<mdke> for those of us who aren't up to speed
<Zerlinna> mdke kubuntu.de is clearly not a community page, it is in fact the pendan to kubuntu.org. Myself I'm a member of kubuntu.de too, and I see no conflicts in kubuntu-de.net becoming a loco-team.
<Seveas> Zerlinna, and with ubuntuusers.de (the official ubuntu locoteam)
<mdke> Zerlinna: pendan?
<kwwii> there is no connection with ubuntusuers.de until now
<elmo> so, as the person who supplied the "rather negative" response, perhaps I should qualify
<Zerlinna> mdke sorry missing t: pendant :)
<Zerlinna> kwwii is right, though we have nothing against collaboration e.g. for translations
<Seveas> Zerlinna, I find it rather odd that you'v started a new team and thus split the community
<mdke> Zerlinna: I still don't get it. But there seem to be all sorts of support resources there, I don't understand having *two* german kubuntu teams (I can see your argument in favour of a separate mailing list, even if it's privately hosted)
<Seveas> why didn't you collaborate from the start on?
<mdke> let's hear elmo though
<Zerlinna> Seveas: our team is not "new".. the forums exist for a pretty long time already
<Seveas> Zerlinna, so did ubuntuusers.de ;)
<kwwii> Seveas: the split had to do with the owner of that site, and his contributions and reluctance thereof more to do than anything
<Zerlinna> mdke according to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoTeamHowto#head-7e7cfbc9ee0c22e5397e25a27e8011afb5405f1a we need this list in order to become an official loco team one day
<mako> kwwii: do those problems still exist?
<kwwii> beleive me, we talked on the phone quite a few times trying to solve this
<mdke> kwwii: that could have been resolved, rather than splitting
<mdke> kwwii: maybe with the CC's help
<kwwii> mako: no, he is happy to see things going this way
<Seveas> kwwii, 'that site' being uusers.de or k-de.nt?
<elmo> the sysadmins get a lot of requests for new mailing lists - when the request is for a i18n/loco list it's very hard for us to judge the need for such a list
<kwwii> he is slowly moving away, for whatever reasons
<kwwii> kubuntu.de
<Seveas> ah
<Seveas> amu
<kwwii> exactly
<Seveas> 'nuff said :)
<mdke> elmo: I might say, I think it's wholly inappropriate that the sysadmins have to deal with these requests. Can Jono be tasked with filtering them first?
<ypsila> we were faced to facts!
<elmo> sorry, one second
<kwwii> there is no internal fighting and we have worked everything out
<mako> kwwii: that's great :)
<kwwii> but moving forward after so many problems would be a good thing for us now
<ypsila> absolutely
<emonkey> kwwii, full ack
<mdke> it seems to me the best thing to do would be to liaise with jono over this issue and ask him to request the mailing list when its resolved
<ypsila> for the germanspeaking community!
<mako> so the request is for a kubuntu-de list
<elmo> sorry, so
<mdke> there should be a first stage rather than bringing these things straight to the CC
<Zerlinna> kwwii is right.. it's annoying that we can't get to work properly because of such things
<kwwii> mako: yes, so that we can move ahead an create a loco team
<Seveas> mdke +1
<elmo> sometimes these requests come from a single solitary user, tho obviously that's not the case here, but it has happened before
<mako> kwwii: and there isn't an existing kubuntu loco team
<kwwii> this is an important step for us
<elmo> (quite a few times)
<mdke> (there was a loco meeting earlier today it could have been raised at)
<kwwii> mako: no there is not
<mako> mdke: yes, some of us are working on that with jono
<Zerlinna> elmo yes but I provided you with a link to our community where you can see that we have a couple of thousands registered user...
<elmo> so, we will question the need for these lists sometimes, but that's not a "negative" thing, it's just that a question
<Seveas> kwwii, why do you desperately want to be seperate from the existing german locoteam?
<kwwii> if we would have know about any other meeting we would have been ther
<elmo> now, second of all
<kwwii> Seveas: we are not seperating from anyone
<mako> i think it would be a very good idea to try to work together with the ubuntu-de list where possible, but i don't see any problem with a list for a kubuntu-de loco
<elmo> there's a problem with creating lists for every derivative and every loco team
<mako> and can't imagine that there is another group who is more qualified
<TheInfinity> and moving forward means concentrating on kubuntu and giving something like an "home" for kubuntu users. the problem is, that on ubuntuuser.de most times gnome is described - but its quite bad to present an user who is completely new to linux another desktop where he has to translate everything into "his" desktop
<kwwii> Seveas: everyone has moved to a forum/list/site/wiki in which they can actually work
<elmo> there's already potentially hundreds of loco teams and timings that by the number of derivative brings it to an unmanageable level
<mako> Seveas: i think you're putting words in their mouth, they haven't said that
<juliux> why do you need an extra list for around 60 mails on the old kubuntu-de list?
<elmo> mailing lists are cheap resource, wise, but they're not free
<kwwii> elmo: 5000 people working on one project is not what you are describing
<smurf_> TheInfinity: true, but somehow that seems not to be a problem in any other country ..?
<ypsila> excuse me, we war not talking about an german team, we are talking about a german speaking team, which means switzerland, austria, luxemburg, france, italy and others as well
<elmo> so, yes, if we're asked for $derviative-$loco or -$i18n, we will question whether or not it needs to be $derivative-$loco and whether or not it couldn't be integrated into ubuntu-$loco
<sabdfl> the KDE community is particularly strong in Germany
<kwwii> juliux: mainly, the problems internally held us back
<mako> there's a big community here, they want to start a loco, they need/want a loco list to do that..
* aseigo wakes up briefly
<sabdfl> so i'm not surprised to see this popping up first in Germany
<glatzor> kwwii: but why do you need a separate loco team. as you already siad before having a mailing list would only be the first step
* mako nods to sabdfl 
<TheInfinity> kubuntu - was said - should be a distribution with first level support - thats not "one of several sub-distributions"
<elmo> again, that's not negative, it's a simple question
<kwwii> juliux: that is why we want to move on, and have already started to do so
<mako> this is only really new because it's a kubuntu group seperate from an ubuntu group
<kwwii> glatzor: no, it would be the last step for us
<elmo> which could have been simply answered, rather than running to CC
<sabdfl> in general i would be supportive of a kubuntu-xx.org loco team as long as there is an open and constructive relationship with the corresponding ubuntu group
<mdke> sabdfl: it pops up in other countries, albeit not necessarily on as big a scale. well organised locoteams can have sub groups for derivatives and represent them well without fragmenting
<mako> ideally, we'd have a relationship similar to the one between ubuntu and kubuntu
<ypsila> sabdfl:  not only germany - germanspeaking countries we even do support to hungaria
<aseigo> smurf_: fwiw i hear such annoyances rather regularly from many people, not specific to *buntu but in general. docu and aid that resembles precisely what you see is a good thing and desired by most
<mako> which is that it's all one big family, but there are subgroups who concentrate on their parts
<sabdfl> it's a failing of BOTH groups if that communication / collaboration isn't in place
* mako nods to sabdfl 
<kwwii> agreed
<mdke> mako: ++ it's all about subgroups
<sabdfl> so, +1 from me to the request
<Zerlinna> sabdfl: as I mentioned we'd like to work together e.g. on translation
<TheInfinity> thats why we thought about working together somehow - for example by translating things
<sabdfl> i would ask that, if there are any flare-ups, they get brought to jono quickly, rather than festering, w.r.t. ubuntuusers.de etc
<mako> mdke: i'm ok with seperate websites and stuff, we have them ubuntu, kubuntu
<mdke> absolutely
<Seveas> (evil idea: alias kubuntu-de@lists to ubuntu-de@lists :))
<mako> what i would ask to the people here
<juliux> Zerlinna, why do you have then your own expo team? with out any communication to the rest of the community?
<mdke> ubuntu-fr does that particularly well, if I may say.
<kwwii> a lot of the work is kde-centric of course, that is why need/want a loco team
<mdke> very nice themed websites for derivatives
<kwwii> juliux: the confusion in the transfer is what caused that
<ypsila> juliux: the rest of the community does not communicate to us?
<Zerlinna> juliux: actually we wanted to post an invitation for booth attendence in the uwn
<mdke> juliux: you are from ubuntu-de, aren't you?
<Zerlinna> +next
<juliux> ypsila, from the expo team is every thing on public mailinglists and wiki pages
<juliux> mdke, yes
<kwwii> please realize that moving from amu's stuff to "our own" took a lot of work/time
<kwwii> and patience
<ypsila> juliux: no it is not
<mdke> ok, so clearly there is a lack of communication between the two groups, maybe you can work on that too?
<kwwii> all of this was discussed to an extent that everyone is happy with it, including amu
<mako> so.. we're making the list.. what i would ask to kwwii and to other people involved here is:
<juliux> ypsila, it is http://wiki.ubuntuusers.de/LocoTeam/Messen/
<juliux> ypsila, since 2005
<Yann2> mdke > what about ubuntufr?
<mako> to talk to the ubuntuusers.de folks or whoever
<mako> and to at the very least, link to and mention each other on your sites
<mdke> Yann2: was paying you a compliment about the themed websites for derivatives
<kwwii> juliux: and we can certainly work on that in the future and learn from your example and contribute to that
<mako> and see if you can come to some agreement on a way to work together in certain areas (conferences maybe, etc) and maybe even to cut down on areas of redundancy
<Yann2> oh, thanks :p (/me's not participating, but reading the interesting debate)
<mako> i think it's in everyone's interest to do that
<mdke> kwwii: that's the stuff!
<Zerlinna> mako I have no problems with linking to uu.de.. we're doing it all the time on the forums for their wiki
<kwwii> it is not that we want to run away, rather that we want to serve the contributors interests and work together with other like-minded people
<ypsila> but we do have to take into consideration that we get more and more users from suse
<mako> Zerlinna: right, it might be nice to do it from the header or something.. maybe have a little "k/ubuntu de community" icon with links to important sites
<mako> to sort of tie it together
<mako> just an idea
<ypsila> and they are familiar with kde
<Zerlinna> mako I can't take the decision for the whole team but personnaly I think we can make smt like this
<Yann2> Zerlinna > btw, I would be glad to explain you how this is working on the french-speaking locoteam, if I can do something to get kubuntu-de.net and ubuntuusers.de to work together... :)
<ypsila> mako: we already do that in daily irc e.g.
<Zerlinna> mako of course collaboration has to come from the other side, too ;)
<mdke> Yann2: rock
<ypsila> Yann2: I would be happy about that!
<TheInfinity> Yann2: this would be a great idea, yes
<mako> Zerlinna: sure, understood
<juliux> Yann2, cool
<mako> ypsila: awesome
<mako> i think that's settled
<Zerlinna> Yann2: well, I know the french community.. they helped me to make the french translation of the kubuntu-flyer
<mako> sabdfl and i both approved it and i think we know what do moving forward
<Zerlinna> Yann2: I don't know if your model fits our needs but we can talk abou ti
<Zerlinna> t
<mako> so lets move forward as a meeting
<Yann2> Zerlinna > just ping me after the end of the meeting ;)
<mako> do we have folks from locos here?
<mako> canada or iran?
<tonyyarusso> lophyte: ping
<lophyte> canada h ere
<sabdfl> fire away
<MehdiHassanpour> Im here from iran
<mako> ok
<sabdfl> lophyte: go ahead
<mako> lophyte: shoot
<lophyte> from what Corey has told me, -ca has already been up for approval before the CC, but our roadmap needed revising..
<lophyte> so I present our latest revised application: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CanadianTeam/ApprovalApplication
<tonyyarusso> I think there may have been some clarification conversations with jono as well?  Not sure.
<lophyte> I'm not sure either
<lophyte> the Toronto chapter of the Canadian team is currently working on an Install Fest event scheduled for march break
<sabdfl> nice logo!
<lophyte> thanks :)
<sabdfl> all looks good to me
<zenwhen> hello all
<sabdfl> do you think it's on a firmer footing this time around?
<lophyte> definitely
<lophyte> we're really rocking in Toronto, and Corey's been leading things well in Victoria
<tonyyarusso> (especially if we can pull Corey back away from the new gf to get work done...)
<lophyte> hehe
<mdke> what's your relationship with the quebec team?
<JoeyStanford> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-ca
<gnomefreak> hes heading to calgary
<mdke> (curiosity)
<mdke> I noticed it's a separate team
<lophyte> mdke: I'm not sure.. as far as I know they're separate
<lophyte> Corey would be better suited to answer that question, as he's been around longer
<tonyyarusso> mdke: Some of their members hang out in #ubuntu-ca and the Canada ML, and are sort of cross-members, presumably with the bulk operating separately (mostly b/c of language).
<lophyte> indeed
<tonyyarusso> People like MagicFab are active in both, among others.
<mdke> would be cool to get a good relationship with them
<lophyte> sfllaw too, I think
<tonyyarusso> yeah, him too
<MagicFab> Yeah
<MagicFab> Quebec contributes to the -ca roadmap
<MagicFab> We're mostly organizing around documenting and of course having install-fest-type events etc. and having a model that other chapters can use
<MagicFab> Can't stay long, meeting :(
<Seveas> mako, elmo: any comments?
<MagicFab> I got all the staff at the montreal office to join -qc too :)
<lophyte> indeed, dinner is starting in a few minutes here
<tonyyarusso> CA and QC also talk to each other about events like SFD, although whether we can get those lined up is unclear so far.
<sabdfl> ok, all looks nice and neat to me, +1
<mako> looks good to me +1
<elmo> sorry, can someone remind me what was the problem last time?  just the roadmap?
<mako> MagicFab: cool :)
<MagicFab> elmo, yes, roadmap
<elmo> ok, +1 then
<MagicFab> gotta go
<sabdfl> MehdiHassanpour: your turn!
<lophyte> excellent
<lophyte> thanks for your time guys :)
<MehdiHassanpour> thanks
<MehdiHassanpour> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IranianTeam/ApprovalApplication
<MehdiHassanpour> is our approval app
<MehdiHassanpour> our team has worked alot on customizing and localizing web app we needed
<MehdiHassanpour> we have good active forums now
<MehdiHassanpour> and had good docs since Ubuntu 5.04
<MehdiHassanpour> they were in our older wiki and now are migrating to wiki.ubuntu-ir.org
<sabdfl> lophyte: good work so far, thanks, an good luck!
<elmo> MehdiHassanpour: could you proivde links to some of the websites mentioned in the 'experience' section?
<MehdiHassanpour> yep
<popey> elmo: linked from https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IranianTeam
<MehdiHassanpour> they are all in hezardastan.org
<elmo> oh, ok
<MehdiHassanpour> http://www.hezardastan.org/ubuntu5.04
<elmo> well arabic script sure does look purty ;-)
<MehdiHassanpour> not arabic, persian :)
<sabdfl> interesting
<sabdfl> is that farsi, in an arabic script?
<sabdfl> or is it a dedicated farsi script?
<MehdiHassanpour> arabic & farsi
<lophyte> thanks sabdfl
<MehdiHassanpour> they are complete guides for all newbies
<mako> wow, pretty awesome
<JoeyStanford> excellent
<MehdiHassanpour> thanks
<mako> you've got 88 members to date?
<MehdiHassanpour> since 28 October 2006
<mako> wow, you'll break 100 soon then
<mdke> FWIW, maybe not strictly relevant to approval of the team, but my experience with MehdiHassanpour is that he is a great person to lead this team, he is an excellent Ubuntero :)
<sabdfl> looks very good to me
<Seveas> mdke, I agree
<MehdiHassanpour> we didn't had these web app before 28 October 2006
<mako> MehdiHassanpour: are there other lugs and such you've worked with?
<MehdiHassanpour> thanks mdke
<mako> are other distributions popular in iran?
<MehdiHassanpour> for other distros ?
<sabdfl> mehdi, thanks for your leadership, +1 from me to the loco team
<mako> MehdiHassanpour: sure, but also just about gnu/linux in general
<MehdiHassanpour> no
<MehdiHassanpour> nothing
<MehdiHassanpour> we have some local distros
<MehdiHassanpour> yes
<mako> so this is the first distro team to you knowledge in iran?
<MehdiHassanpour> irantux.com
<MehdiHassanpour> gnuiran.org
<mako> ah, cool
<MehdiHassanpour> we have some global lugs
<mako> very exciting
* jenda suggests voting on Mehdi's membership straight away, now that he's here and talking...
<mako> MehdiHassanpour: thanks for all your hard work
<mako> jenda: good suggestion
<MehdiHassanpour> thank you mako
<Seveas> it
<Seveas> it's late in iran, he'll appreciate it
<mako> membership appoitnsments are up.. so it might make sense to do look at MehdiHassanpour's app
<mako> MehdiHassanpour: when youre ready, please ahead with the normal introduction
<Seveas> so iranianteam is approved now?
<MehdiHassanpour> we will have a Linux desktop book soon, based on ubuntu
<MehdiHassanpour> I'm its main author
<mako> Seveas: pending elmo's stamp, i guess
<elmo> +1
<MehdiHassanpour> :)
<Seveas> well, there we go :)
<Seveas> MehdiHassanpour, please give us your personal introduction for your membership application
<MehdiHassanpour> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Mehdi
<mdke> I've worked with MehdiHassanpour several times about translation of documentation and general loco matters, he is a great asset to the community, works well with people and is an all round nice guy. Sorry for being repetitive
<Seveas> MehdiHassanpour, too bad I can't read arabic/persian/farsi/whichever it is
<Seveas> but it looks impressiv
<Seveas> MehdiHassanpour, whe did you start all this?
<MehdiHassanpour> many thanks mdke
<elmo> MehdiHassanpour: (roughly) what are the extra packages homa installs?
<MehdiHassanpour> I'm an ubuntu user since warty
<MehdiHassanpour> all multimedia codecs
<MehdiHassanpour> fonts
<mako> everything i've seen looks good
<MehdiHassanpour> it has many packages
<mako> i'm happy with MehdiHassanpour for membership
* JoeyStanford appologizes for the connection issues today.
<elmo> MehdiHassanpour: ok
<MehdiHassanpour> thanks mako
<elmo> +1 from me too
<sabdfl> +1 from me for MehdiHassanpour
<sabdfl> welcome aboard!
<MehdiHassanpour> these are the packages Multimedia edition has
<MehdiHassanpour> http://wiki.hezardastan.org/Homa/HomaEdgy/Multimedia
<mdke> welcome MehdiHassanpour  :)
<MehdiHassanpour> Oh, many thanks sabdfl
<MehdiHassanpour> thank you mkde
<MehdiHassanpour> mdke
* mako nods 
<mako> great, whose next?
<rpereir1> May I go?
<Seveas> sebastean didn't show up
<Seveas> nor did xoper
<gnomefreak> rpereir1: we are going in order
<Seveas> so you're up rpereir1
<gnomefreak> ok
<rpereir1> Hello, I'm Pereira. My complete name is Rodrigo Pereira Braga. I'm an university professor in Brazil. My contributions to ubuntu are translations, bugs report and triage, and support to other users (on brazilian e-mails list, minas gerais (my state in brazil) e-mails list and #ubuntu). I started to package two (maybe three) programs for Ubuntu now: Archimedes - CAD program, SyncEvolution (Sync Evolution with SyncML Calendars o
<rpereir1> I'm trying to contribute on developing hardware drivers for brazilian winmodem. Many of my student don't use Ubuntu because in Brazil some residencies just have dialup connections.
<rpereir1> Details are availiable on my wiki page - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Pereira . Any questions ?
<Seveas> are there any ubuntu-br members here to cheer for rpereir1 ?
<sabdfl> how is the evo sync stuff in terms of quality and completeness?
<OgMaciel> Seveas: unfortunately, the 2 guys who know rpereir1 are not here
<rpereir1> Not very good. I'm trying to work in it and send the chages upstream.
<rpereir1> changes.
<rpereir1> But it works very welll....
<rpereir1> I'll have to create a script to autoconfigure and maybe and interface to sync.
<elmo> rpereir1: how long have you been using/contributing to ubuntu?
<rpereir1> I'm using/contributing  since 2005 April... (5.04).
<mako> Mario Meyer left a contribution on the wiki
<JoeyStanford> FWIW, I have seen email posts and IRC discussion from Pereira over the last 3 months. That's the extent of my knowledge.
<rpereir1> I started on my state e-mail list....
<rpereir1> Minas Gerais...
<OgMaciel> #ubuntu-br-mg  ;)
<rpereir1> And in my University forum...
<elmo> +1 from me
<OgMaciel> rpereir1: are you involved with any Edubuntu projects in Minas?
<mako> yes, +1 form me, this all looks very good
<mako> it would be ideal to have more people show up to give testimonials
<rpereir1> http://groups.google.com/group/RedesEstacioBH in portuguese....
<mako> but i appreciate that you had them added to the wiki
<Seveas> 2 out of 3 done, not bad :)
<rpereir1> I'm starint a project with Edubuntu in a poor community in my city.
<sabdfl> thanks rpereir1, +1 from me, and welcome
<rpereir1> starting
<Seveas> welcom rpereir1 !
<OgMaciel> congrats rpereir1
<rpereir1> Thanks very much.
<mdke> good job
<OgMaciel> ;)
<Seveas> mehdi has already been approved
<rpereir1> For everyone.
<Seveas> jason can't make it, his grandfather passed away
<mdke> rpereir1: if you're interested in helping with documentation for winmodems, perhaps you can give me your email address. We need some help badly
<Seveas> dsas, you're up
<dsas> My main contribution is with bug triage, which I've been doing a while but stepped up my efforts last June or so. I'm also part of the UKTeam where I help out in various ways. Links: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeanSas launchpad.net/~dsas
* Seveas gives a lot of big cheers for dsas
<Seveas> bug triaging king!
* JoeyStanford issues a +1 based on his experience with dsas.
<Seveas> karma over one billion
* gnomefreak also happy with dsas bug work
<mdke> dsas has sent several patches to documentation, and helps out generally with docs bugs and email, he's good!
<Seveas> no,I misread
<Seveas> but it's still insanely high
<popey> +1 from me for dsas. He is a demon with bug triage, is a great support analyst on the support ticket system, and he is very friendly and welcoming on irc.
<gnomefreak> god i hoped so Seveas
<Seveas> popey, only cc members vore
<popey> sorry, yeah, knew that :)
<Seveas> gnomefreak, it wouldn't have surprised me if he had over a billion
<Seveas> he does a LOT of work
<mdke> Seveas: sent you a /query
<gnomefreak> he does do alot of work but hell 1 million is very hard to get
<sabdfl> wow
<LoudMouthMan> Nik Butler sasy Dsas is the link between UKTeam activity and much of the Documentaton acitivty and wiki so hes a BIG help to us.
<Seveas> gnomefreak, he's at 10 mill
<gnomefreak> thats 10 million :(
<gnomefreak> omg
<JoeyStanford> Karma:  10011469
<Seveas> yes, omg indeed
<sabdfl> dsas: what is your malone wishlist?
* JoeyStanford laughs.
<Seeker`> Dsas is really helpful
<dsas> uhm, to be easier to use, I'm still not convinced that it's obvious how to change the status for example.
* LaserJock starts singing "All I want for Christmas ..."
<frederific> he is IMMENSELY, he's never off #ubuntu-uk, and he's helped me out a good few times
<frederific> (helpful)
<dsas> I've had to point out how to do that to a few people in #ubuntu-bugs now
<sabdfl> +1 from me on the basis of a very clear sustained contribution
<sabdfl> and dsas, please help us make it better!
* mako nods to sabdfl 
<mako> yes, it all looks very great
<mako> dsas: thanks for all of your work
<dsas> thanks :)
<Seveas> elmo, ?
<elmo> +1
<popey> \o/ dsas
<Seveas> welcome dsas !
<Seveas> it's about time ;
<Seveas> ;)
<popey> Welcome to the club :)
<dsas> sweet, thanks everyone.
<gnomefreak> welcome dsas
<mdke> well done dsas, welcome aboard
<Seveas> BuffaloSoldier, you're up
<LoudMouthMan> congratulations dsas.
<LaserJock> congrats dsas
<Yawner> congrats dsas :)
<BuffaloSoldier> Thanks Seveas
<Seeker`> congrats dsas
<BuffaloSoldier> Hello, my name is Firdaus Aziz, I use the handle "BuffaloSoldier" in UbuntuForums. I have been an Ubuntu user since November 2004 and have been a regular UbuntuForum users since the same time. At the begining my main contribution was helping with users that are new to Ubuntu/Linux. People in the forums where very friendly and helpful when I first started, that's why I decided to contribute back especially to newcomers to lin
<BuffaloSoldier> ux. Starting March 2006 I have been given the honor to serve as a moderator there.
<BuffaloSoldier> My near-future plan is promoting ubuntu/edubuntu to high schools and colleges in Malaysia and to work closely with relevant organization (Malaysian Education department). Being an Ubuntu member would help me very much when dealing with people especially government organization. My wiki is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FirdausAziz
<sabdfl> in future, forums staff will automatically qualify for membership if they want
<Seveas> BuffaloSoldier, can you please give us a link to your forums profile
<jenda> BuffaloSoldier has been an important part of the mod squad on the ubuntuforums. He handles users very well, too.
<Seveas> ah nvm ,it's on your page :)
<sabdfl> BuffaloSoldier: can you tell us how things are settling down in the forums since we discussed ForumsGovernance?
<BuffaloSoldier> personally i think it's too early to tell, i think it will be sometime before the end-user that visits the forums starts to notive anything
<zenwhen> I came here to cheer for BuffaloSoldier as well. He has been a wonderful person to work with during my time as an Ubuntu Forums staff member.
<Vorian_> I am cheering for BuffaloSoldier as well, he is always very helpful!
<sabdfl> ok, looks like a substantial and sustained contribution to me
<sabdfl> +1 from me on BuffaloSoldier
<mako> any other testimonials from forums people?
<mako> your contributions on the forums look fantastic
<manicka> BuffaloSoldier, has always been a great contributor and moderator at the forums
<mako> +1 from me
<elmo> +1 from me too
<Seveas> nice!
<Seveas> welcome aboard!
<Seveas> zenwhen, you're up
<jenda> Congratulations, Buffy! ;)
<Vorian_> congrats BuffaloSoldier !
<zenwhen> My contributions to the community are as follows: I have been an active member of the ubuntuforums.org staff for well over a year. I also started #ubuntuforums, which is the the freenode IRC channel used by the ubuntuforums community. (which I would like to work on getting made official)
<mdke> welcome BuffaloSoldier
<BuffaloSoldier> thanks everyone :)
<zenwhen> My wiki page / application can be found here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Zenwhen
<zenwhen> welcome BuffaloSoldier
<Seveas> zenwhen, the IRC channel as official as it gets already - do you ned something else?
* MagicFab is back
<rpereir1> welcome BuffaloSoldier
<zenwhen> My forums profile can be found here: http://ubuntuforums.org/member.php?u=1543
<zenwhen> Mainly, just to see you say that. :)
<Seveas> zenwhen, I thought I already had, sorry :)
<zenwhen> That is settled, then.
<jenda> zenwhen has been a great help both within the forums and the #ubuntuforums IRC channel.
<Vorian_> I'm here to cheer for zenwhen, he is a treasure trove of knowledge and support!
<Seveas> other forums staff want to cheer as well?
<BuffaloSoldier> I am here to cheer for zenwhen, he's very knowledgable and very supportive of new users
<sabdfl> november 2004, pretty early into the game ;-)
<sabdfl> how many forums staff are there currently?
<zenwhen> Yes. I jumped on the right boat.
<Seveas> sabdfl, afaik 3
<Seveas> with a load of mods
<sabdfl> +1 from me for zenwhen on the basis of long participation and staff membership in forums
<zenwhen> 35 or so mods
<manicka> all mods are considered staff Seveas
<Seveas> manicka, ok
<jenda> sabdfl: full list https://launchpad.net/~ubuntuforums-staff
<jenda> (I hope it's up to date, taht is)
<elmo> +1 from me
<Seveas> mako, how about you?
<mako> sorry, +1
<mako> i'm glad we had a chance to get to you
<Seveas> likewise
<jenda> (Actually, it seems the newest 3-5 staff members aren't on there, I'll prod the admins)
<Seveas> mlind, you're up
<zenwhen> Thank you all so much!
<Seveas> zenwhen, congratulations!
<mako> jenda: sure :)
<mlind> okay, shooting
<rpereir1> Congrats zenwhen
<mlind> Greetings to all, my name is Matti Lindell, 25 year-old student of computer science from Finland.
<mlind> Ubuntu caught my interest back in days when I was looking an alternative for Fedora. I started as Breezy user and was hooked ever since :) I use Ubuntu daily on my personal computer and also on my work. I work part-timely on a local mid-sized software company as J2EE sofware developer and we use mainly Ubuntu on our servers&workstations.
<mako> i'm going to need to leave pretty soon.. i have a talk i'm scheduled to give
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-01-10
<jenda> gratz, zenwhen :)
<mlind> I started my Ubuntu contributions by hanging out @ ubuntuforums and writing some HOWTO's about packaging and backporting stuff from Debian. I also help people there to package/build their own stuff, and I maintain a small repository to supply some community requested packages that are not available for (stable) Ubuntu's.
<zenwhen> Thanks.
<mlind> I'm very interested in ways that Ubuntu (and Debian) collaborate with open-source world and produce quality for end-users. I eventually found out about MOTUing process and a way to contribute to Ubuntu Java community by becoming a MOTU and start contributing on universe's Java section. To catch things up I joined up in few teams @ launchpad and began squashing bugs, submitting sync and merge requests (thanks crimsun, hobbesee and 
<mlind> My plans in a nutshell are: * Improve Ubuntu's Java support (hopefully by MOTUing) * Help with syncs&merges * Become a Ubuntu member * Become a MOTU * Transform some great ubuntuforums articles made by others into Wiki content
<mlind> Wiki page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Mlind
<mlind> Launchpad profile: https://launchpad.net/~mlind
<mako> sabdfl in his python-fanaticism will be unhappy to hear it's at the bboston-ruby group ;)
<mlind> Ubuntuforums profile: http://ubuntuforums.org/member.php?u=52272
<mako> mlind: are there reasons for not including your packages in multiverse/backports/whatever?
<sabdfl> sigh
<mako> mlind: exciting moment for java people :)
<mlind> no, most of the issues are policy related
<mako> mlind: ah, ok..
<mlind> but I'm heading to motu section hopefully, that's why I'm here :)
<Seveas> you don't need to be a member to contribut to what the motu do :)
<mlind> yeah, I know. allthough it would be nice to make their workload easier
<mako> mlind: cool :)
<Seveas> mlind, did you bring any cheerleaders?
<theravingsociety> i would like to cheer for mlind, as his packages have high quality :-)
<mlind> hum,, crimsum seems to left. but I hope forums people cheer for me :)
<sabdfl> i see you subscribe to quite a few bugs, seems your interest is far beyond java only, is that correct?
<mlind> sabdfl: yes, far beyond java
<mako> mlind: wow, you're super active on the forums
<Vorian_> I'll cheer for mlind !  Best kind of chap there is, very helpful!
<mlind> thanks mako
<sabdfl> +1 from me on the basis of java packaging and forums activity over more than a ear
<sabdfl> year, that is
<mako> absolutely
<mako> +1 from me
<mako> lots of visible work
<elmo> +1
<sabdfl> welcome, mlind, and thanks for your contribution so far
<mlind> thanks Vorian_ and forums people ;)
<mlind> thanks guys/gals, glad to be aboard
<Vorian_> congrats mlind !
<rpereir1> congrats mlind!
<zenwhen> congrats
<theravingsociety> congrats
<Seveas> nocturn can't make it
<Seveas> so Adri2000 is up
<Seveas> (congrats mlind!)
<Adri2000> ok :)
<Adri2000> I'm Adrien Cunin, 16 years old French student. I have been an active contributor since the end of the dapper cycle with translation. For edgy, I started bug triaging (I'm part of the QA team now) and packaging.
<Adri2000> Today I'm more focused on packaging, MOTU work: merges/syncs, bugs fixing. I packaged some new programs, and I'm going to maintain two of them in Debian (they are currently in the NEW queue).
<Adri2000> You can find the detail of my packaging work on my wiki page.
<Adri2000> LP: https://launchpad.net/people/adri2000 - Wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AdrienCunin
<Adri2000> Unfortunately, Gauvain Pocentek, who is my main sponsor/mentor, can't be here for the meeting, therefore he added some comments at the end of my wiki page.
<Adri2000> Daniel T. Chen also left a note, but I guess he meant #ubuntu-motu, not -bugs.
<Toadstool> hey everybody
<Sp4rKy> heya Toadstool
<mako> Adri2000: awesome that you're maintaing your ubuntu packages in debian as well :)
<mako> Adri2000: makes getting your packages into debian to reduce the delta pretty easy :)
<Toadstool> although I haven't been really active in the MOTU world lately, I've checked Adri2000's work several times and he's doing really good
<sabdfl> seems reasonable to me
<mako> yes, looks that way to me
<rpereir1> mdke: Sorry I didn't see your msg. I'm interested in help on winmodem documentation. Jabber and e-mail - https://launchpad.net/~rpereira
<sabdfl> Adri2000: have you applied for a place on ubuntu-dev too?
<Adri2000> thanks Toadstool :)
<mdke> rpereir1: yay :)
<mako> g
<elmo> +1
<Adri2000> sabdfl: not yet, but I'm thinking about that, yes :)
<mako> yes, +1 from me
<sabdfl> ok, +1 from me for membership
<sabdfl> and thanks for your contribution so far - welcome!
<Seveas> nice!
<Seveas> Welcome aboard Adri2000
<mdke> good job Adri2000
<Toadstool> Adri2000: wow, congrats' :)
<Seveas> Lutin, you're up next
<Adri2000> thank you everybody ! :-)
<Lutin> ok
<rpereir1> Adri2000: congrats.
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 10 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 11 Jan 21:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 16 Jan 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 17 Jan 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 18 Jan 08:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 20 Jan 15:00 UTC: Xubuntu
<Seveas> mako, how long will you be available?
<Lutin> I am Albin Tonnerre, student in electronics and computer science in France
<Lutin> I started using linux and ubuntu over a year ago, when breezy was released, as I was looking for an opensource and free OS. I use ubuntu as my only OS on a daily basis.
<Lutin> My main interests are helping out the users on the forums and IRC, and I also like packaging. I try to contribute to ubuntu as much as I can, especially with packaging in my two major fields of interests - Enlightenment dr17 and mutimedia - I've been maintaining the e17 repo hosted on edevelop for six month now and work on somes packages for medibuntu (former plf)
<Lutin> I'm also moderator on the ubuntu-fr forum where I try to help users as mush as possible
<Lutin> Lp : https://launchpad.net/people/lutin-     wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlbinTonnerre
<Lutin> Unfortunately gpocentek can't be here, he is my main mentor, but he left a note on my wiki page
<Seveas> are there other ubuntu-fr people around?
<Sp4rKy> yep
<Seveas> then speak ;)
<Lutin> Yann2 also seems to be
<Sp4rKy> Seveas: i work with Lutin on some common project
<mr_pouit> (So do I)
<skateinmars> hi, i'm an ircop on ubuntu-fr, I just would like to say that Lutin is doing great on the french forums
<Seveas> Lutin, why aren't your e17 packages in UBuntu yet?
<mako> Seveas: maybe this is my last one.. maybe one more
<Sp4rKy> we build E17 repo, and we work on our own revu website
<Seveas> mako, ok
<Lutin> Seveas: mostly because the lead developper asked us nicely not to put the packages in ubuntu nor debian for te moment
<Seveas> Lutin, fair enough :)
<dennda> mako, may i ask you for one more? :)
<Sp4rKy> Lutin really done a good work in packaging stuff and helping people on IRC or Forum
<Lutin> Seveas: I'm also working with the pkg-e team for its integration in debian
<Seveas> excellent
<Seveas> everything that reduces the ubuntu <-> debian delta is good
<Sp4rKy> :)
<rpereir1> Seveas: I agree with you.
<Toadstool> Lutin (and Sp4rKy too) are doing a huge work to package e17 and make it available on the edevelop repository
<Yann2> Lutin ?
<sabdfl> is the E17 popular?
<Sp4rKy> sabdfl: a little yes
<Seveas> more popular than the E shipped by Ubuntu proper
<Yann2> Lutin got a +1 from me, he's doing a really great job as moderator on the forums... nice and helpful :)
<Seveas> and it's quite fast and bling-y so it attracts people
<Lutin> sabdfl: can't recall exactly, let's say 80Go bandwith per month
<sabdfl> doesn't make sense to have different' E's, in ubuntu and separately
<Sp4rKy> Lutin: a little bit more i think, i've more than 100Go a month on the mirror :)
<sabdfl> easier for devs to get testing feedback on that in the normal repo
<Lutin> sabdfl: the devel team doesn't want to have to provide support for users
<Lutin> as it's far from being ready
<Lutin> that's mostly why we didn't try to put them in ubuntu for now
<Sp4rKy> sabdfl: Lutin the stats of the mirror for e17 announce 300user by day
<sabdfl> well, since there's no iso, you're unlikely to get folks who don't know how to select their own packages
<sabdfl> and that's not much harder than adding a repo
<sabdfl> so, it's just an obstacle to testing and feedback
<sabdfl> and a source of confusion, imo
<sabdfl> i understand the "i don't want to be flooded"
<sabdfl> but i think it's a little misguided
<sabdfl> that's a source of good clean bug reports
<Sp4rKy> sabdfl: talk about that with rasterman :p
<sabdfl> would be happy to - give him my email address
<Lutin> ok :)
<mako> sabdfl: you'll find that many things about e17 go against what many consider best practice
<mako> sabdfl: the goal of the project is to be iconoclastic
<Seveas> like a development time longer than winxp ;)
<mako> sabdfl: that's both the greatest source of criticism and the reason people like it
<sabdfl> but.. there are E17 packages in ubuntu, right?
<Sp4rKy> sabdfl: no
<Lutin> sabdfl: no
<sabdfl> ok
<sabdfl> older version of E?
<Lutin> 0.16.7.x iirc
<Sp4rKy> i don't think
<sabdfl> ok
<Seveas> E16
<Seveas> years old
<Lutin> totally different
<mako> alright, i really need to leave
<sabdfl> ok, well +1 from me, though i'd like to see the placement of the packages sorted out
<sabdfl> cheers mako, and happy new year (russian ;-))
<mako> +1 from me as well
<Seveas> see you next time mako
<sabdfl> i'm getting to the end of my run too
<mako> i'm happy to echo both of sabdf's comment
<Seveas> elmo, +1/0/-1?
<elmo> +1
<sabdfl> who's up next?
<mako> if you keep going, please send me a summary on email with a list of people voted on, i'll approve things from there
<dennda> me
<dennda> if i got things right
<mako> as long as nobody else has objects
<sabdfl> are the folks to date approved in LP?
<mako> objections, and if i don't either
<mako> sabdfl: i haven't been doing it, so unless elmo has, not yet
<Seveas> dennda, is up (if we continue)
<mako> thanks everyone!
<mako> see you next time
<Lutin> thanks everyone :)
<elmo> sorry, I haven't done it yet
<rpereir1> Lutin: congrats.
<Seveas> if noone did lp duty, I'll add a list of accounts in the summary to mako
<elmo> I can catch up in the backlog, if you want
<Seveas> so he can do it whileapproving the rest
<dennda> (may i have a start?)
<Lutin> elmo, sabdfl: thanks :)
<mdke> are we continuing? I've got a couple of people I'd like to cheerlead
<Seveas> mdke, looks like it. sabdfl, elmo want to continue or postpone?
<sabdfl> mako, do you mind if i give seveas admin caps on ubuntumembers in LP?
<sabdfl> sorry, that should be a side conversation
<sabdfl> let's keep going
<sabdfl> dennda!
<sabdfl> guys, please pre-prepare your entry comments
<sabdfl> so we can make quick progress
<Seveas> ok
<dennda> thank you sabdfl
<mdke> yay for sabdfl
<dennda> Hi folks! My name is Christopher Denter. I am an eighteen year old German geek who started dealing with ubuntu about one year ago. Very soon after Breezy had made me love linux and ubuntu i started helping other users on forums and the IRC. I also started promoting ubuntu to my friends. I managed to replace windows on many of my mates' computers with ubuntu. Up to now I wrote two different articles about ubuntu for computer/linux ma
<dennda> gs and many postings to several forums to promote ubuntu and to support people using it. In addition to that I began to do presentations, e.g. in school or university. I was present at last year's LinuxWorldExpo in Cologne as an active ubuntero at the German ubuntu booth. A summary of my contributions is fetchable from my wiki.
<DktrKranz> thanks :D
<mako> sabdfl: no, i'm fine giving Seveas admin privledges on launchpad
<dennda> wiki: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/dennda launchpad: https://launchpad.net/~dennda
<sabdfl> i have dennda, atoponce, tristanbob, mr_pouit, Gwaihir, Vorian_, DktrKranz on the list from here
<sabdfl> ok cool
<kaffke> dennda is the leading representative of the ubuntu community in my region. he tries his best to make everyone use ubuntu and even calls on people with his laptop when they need support.
<kaffke> so i want to cheer for dennda
<juliux> i only can say +1 for dennda he is realy active in the german irc channels, forum, expos and in the german ubuntu association
<sabdfl> that's very awesome
<Seveas> other ubuntu-de members to vouch?
<smurf_> yes, me ;-)
* JoeyStanford has to leave to do a public Ubuntu presentation at College America & NCLUG. He has posted testimonials in the wiki for  atoponce and tristanbob.
<Seveas> smurf_, then do so ;)
<sabdfl> thanks JoeyStanford
<JoeyStanford> cheers :-)
<kaffke> i want to impress on approving dennda as a member because he is a very commited and dedicated ubuntero
<smurf_> I can only repeat what the others said -- vote him in!  ;-)
<sabdfl> dennda: seems you have made a good contribution in the media
<sabdfl> how can we improve the interaction between loco teams and their local media?
<dennda> sabdfl, yes i hope so
<dennda> sabdfl, i think it is all about connections
<dennda> sabdfl, this means that we have to improve these connections. we can talk to people from the media on events like the LinuxWorldExpo for example
<sabdfl> do you think you could draft some guidelines for how loco teams can build and maintain those connections?
<mdke> good idea!
<dennda> sabdfl, of course
<Seveas> yes please
<mdke> dennda: please share them on the loco-contacts mailing list
<sabdfl> +1 from me on the back of strong advocacy
<sabdfl> over a sustained period of time
<dennda> i certainly will, but this has to wait at least one week. (i have my schools finish-exams starting on friday, they are very important)
<mdke> dennda: that's great. good luck with exams
<Seveas> dennda, good luck!
<sabdfl> dennda: please could you work with jono on the loco+media plan?
<dennda> thank you guys :)
<sabdfl> i think we could teach the loco's how to build those relationships
<dennda> sabdfl, yes i can
<sabdfl> and feed them good announcements for translation and discussion
<Seveas> elmo, poke
<sabdfl> become a stronger advocacy network
<elmo> +1
<sabdfl> Seveas: you should now have admin on ubuntu members, and won't expire in June either ;-)
<juliux> sabdfl, i will help dennda to talk with jono about how to get in touch with the media
<Seveas> sabdfl, great :)
<Seveas> atoponce, you're up
<atoponce> cool.
<sabdfl> ok, welcome pending mako-ness :-)
<atoponce> Hello. I'm Aaron Toponce (atoponce), and I have been a long-time Ubuntu user and hacker. I am a member of the UtahTeam, active on IRC and semi-active on the forums. I first started Linux in '99 with Slackware, moved to RPM-based distros and settled down on Ubuntu when Warty was released.
<dennda> juliux, thank you very much for that
<Seveas> his holy makoness ;)
<atoponce> wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AaronToponce
<atoponce> launchpad: https://launchpad.net/~aaron-toponce
<juliux> gn8 everybody
<dennda> thanks everybody
<tristanbob> I am here to cheer for Aaron.  He is a great advocate for Ubuntu, and highly devoted to open source.  He does a great job of leading a local LUG, where we often speak about Ubuntu. (Ok, we *ALWAYS* talk about Ubuntu)  ;)
<Zelut> I'm here to vouch for atoponce.  I started the UtahTeam about a year ago and he was one of the early members.  I think the best I could say about Aaron is that if I could no longer lead the Utah Team I would ask him to take my place.
<dennda> (did you now approve me? sorry i didn't get that ;))
<Seveas> dennda, no
<Seveas> mako is gone so there's no approval yet
<Seveas> he'll have to give his +1 later via mail
<dennda> ah ok
<dennda> that's fine
<Seveas> atoponce, heh, all mp3's are gone?
<atoponce> :)  yes. all.  only ogg's, and one i purchased at that
<atoponce> 
<dennda> then i am going to bed now. thank you everyone and good night!
<MagicFab> "pirated" is a bad word :)
<Seveas> g'night dennda
<atoponce> MagicFab: no argument here.
<sabdfl> is that a real plate?
<atoponce> sabdfl: yes. it's on my '07 corolla
<atoponce> suprisingly enough, it wasn't taken
<sabdfl> nice. i think someone in oregon was declined for "ubuntu" there
<atoponce> i hope it's okay...
<popey> hehe, that's dedication :)
<tristanbob> he got the plate before I could!
<jenda> Atoponce has been around the marketing team these last months - I've seen him help out. /me raises his hand for atoponce.
<sabdfl> because it could be read as u-bunt-u
<mdke> wow that rocks
<atoponce> sabdfl: yeah. i get people asking all the time what it means
<jenda> Besides, atoponce types on the dvorak, which makes him incredibly cool...
<atoponce> most can't make it out, so i explain it too him
<Seveas> atoponce, ans you even know/use s5, impressive!
<atoponce> Seveas: yeah. for my ubuntu-utah presentations
<atoponce> easier than carrying around a file on a thumb drive. :)
<Seveas> (argh, I'm having enormous lag :(  )
<sabdfl> that's a lot of cd's
<atoponce> sabdfl: yes. i mainly hand them out on campus. i am lucky to have college departments who are supportive of it
<atoponce> if it weren't for my university, i wouldn't be near that number
<sabdfl> atoponce: which is your forums page?
<atoponce> http://ubuntuforums.org/member.php?u=18570
<theravingsociety> good night everyone. it was my first ubuntu-meeting and a great pleasure for me to meet sabdfl in irc ;-)
<sabdfl> atoponce: +1 from me on the back of loco and forums work
<Seveas> Couldn't agree more :)
<Seveas> atoponce rocks
<atoponce> sabdfl: thx.
<sabdfl> elmo?
<atoponce> Seveas: thx man
<elmo> +1
<Seveas> tristanbob, you're up next
<tristanbob> Hello everyone, my name is Tristan Rhodes and I am also a member of the Ubuntu Utah Team.  You can start reading about me on the wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TristanRhodes
<Seveas> atoponce, you'll also have to wait for mako
<atoponce> Seveas: np
<tristanbob> I have been with Ubuntu since the beginning (2004). At that time, I was thinking about running UserLinux as my Linux desktop. Lucky for me, I began hearing about a secret Debian-based distribution (http://no-name-yet.com) that was being created by the "Warty Warthogs".
<tristanbob> After downloading and installing the Ubuntu 4.10 Preview Release, I fell in love with Ubuntu at first sight! I was infatuated with how Ubuntu took the best parts of Debian (huge apt repositories, commitment to open source software, great community) and improved on all the things that Debian lacked (regular releases, simple install). It was a dream come true!
<tristanbob> I truly believe that the world will be a better place when people of all backgrounds have access to high-quality free software. There is a principle that the more resources that are applied to open source software, the better it becomes for everyone (not just paying customers). That is why I promote the use and adoption of open source software every chance I get.
<tristanbob> Open source software is not always better quality than proprietary software, but I do believe it is always ethically superior.
<tristanbob> My main contributions have been in advocacy and documentation.  I have presented about Ubuntu in several Linux User Group meetings, and I share my love for Ubuntu to everyone who listens.  :)  My documentation efforts have been on the Ubuntu wiki, and also in my blog.
<tristanbob> In the future I hope to create packages for my favorite applications, but as an intermediate step I have created scripts to install these applications on Ubuntu.
<Seveas> sabdfl, no-name-yet.com points to changelogs now :)
<atoponce> i'm here to root for tristanbob. as president of oalug, it's always good to have someone you can rely on.  tristanbob is my rock in our local lug.  whenever i need something, i know he'll step up to the plate.  heck, if it weren't for him, i would not be here today. 
<mdke> tristanbob: what documentation have you worked on?
<mdke> (can't see from your wiki page)
<elmo> Seveas: meh
<mdke> tristanbob: oh sorry, I see it now
<tristanbob> mdke: just a few wiki pages - you have corrected my formatting once before.
<tristanbob> :)
<Seveas> elmo, you read my mind
<ogra> Seveas, you got meh in your mind ?
<Zelut> I'm also here to root for Tristan.  He's been another very active member of the Utah Team.  He's very knowledgeable and regularly advocates Ubuntu.  I think he's been a good source of recruitment for the team and I'm glad to have him.
<mdke> tristanbob: aha, good job
<ogra> tristanbob, "Download and test alpha releases (flights, knots, herds, etc) on a virtual machine" thats a very significant contribution we currently can not really measure, do you have any idea or suggestions how we could make the testing more measurable ?
<ogra> s/the testing/the contribution to testing/
<tristanbob> OgMaciel: I'm not sure... I really just like to follow the improvements as they are made, and file bugs if I run into anything.
<OgMaciel> :)
<OgMaciel> not me
<OgMaciel> hehe
<rpereir1> :-)
<Seveas> OgMaciel, well from certain angles you look like ogra
<OgMaciel> Seveas: hehehehe
<sladen> tristanbob: do you think some sort of testing script that 'reported' a success every it was tun would be useful.  sort of like popcon, but for each upgrade of a distribution under test?
<ogra> Seveas, lol
<sladen> s/tun/run/
<sabdfl> tristanbob: thanks for your contributions, +1 from me on the back of advocacy and loco team leadership
<tristanbob> sladen: that is a neat idea, I am huge fan of the data gathered from popcon and the hardware database
<elmo> +1
<Seveas> mr_pouit, you're up now
<tristanbob> sabdfl: elmo: Thanks!
<mr_pouit> Hello, I'm Lionel, 20 years old french student. I have been an active contributor since the begginning of edgy cycle with packaging and bug triaging.
<mr_pouit> Today I'm a bit more focused on integrating my packages into Debian (they are currently in the NEW queue).
<mr_pouit> I try to motivate French people to involve in Ubuntu by answering packaging questions (when I know the answer, of course ;) asked on #ubuntu-fr-classroom.
<mr_pouit> I'm also a moderator on the ubuntu-fr forum where I try to help users as much as possible
<mr_pouit> Wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LionelLeFolgoc  LP: https://launchpad.net/~mrpouit
<Seveas> tristanbob, preliminary welcome :)
<mr_pouit> Unfortunately, Gauvain Pocentek, who is my main sponsor/mentor, can't be here for the meeting.
<MagicFab> French is good :)
<Seveas> mr_pouit, did you bring cheerleaders?
<atoponce> tristanbob: congrats
<MitchM> tristanbob, grats
<Sp4rKy> i've done many work with mr_pouit
<skateinmars> As a french ubuntu user and ircop, I would like to cheer up for mr_pouit who is really helping people using and contributing to ubuntu.
<rpereir1> tristanbob: atoponce: congrats.
<Lutin> I work with mr_pouit on the medibuntu project and some other packaging stuff, I can say he's doing really great job
<ogra> tristanbob, congrats and dont drop the testing ;)
<Sp4rKy> especially in plf & medibuntu work, and in some other packaging stuff
<Lutin> and besides spends a lot of time helping out new users with packaging and other stuff
<sabdfl> mr_pouit: quite a few new packages during december, what is the main focus of your interest?
<Sp4rKy> mr_pouit, like lutin and me, try to help people who try to learn packaging, so we help us creating package and make them better before put them to revu
<tristanbob> ogra: thanks - I will keep up the testing (it helps if I use your correct nick)
* Toadstool cheers on mr_pouit 
<ogra> tristanbob, yeah, else OgMaciel had to grow a lot of hair :)
<Toadstool> he's done a really good packaging job so far
<sabdfl> mr_pouit: how many people would you say you have mentored as part of MOTU?
<OgMaciel> ogra: hehehehe
<mr_pouit> sabdfl, in fact, I received a macbook during december, and I spend a lot of time to "play" with it
<mr_pouit> sabdfl, hmm, I help 3, 4 french packagers :)
<mr_pouit> sabdfl, that's why I made less packages during december
<mr_pouit> (yes, I answer to the questions in the wrong order ^^)
<sabdfl> ok, +1 from me for mr_pouit on the back of packaging, and I encourage you to join MOTU formally!
<OgMaciel> ogra: maybe there's some similarities?  http://planeta.gnulinuxbrasil.org/images/og.png  :)
<mr_pouit> sabdfl, thanks :)
<elmo> +1 too
<FeistyFa1n> sorry, my internete connection dropped
<sabdfl> semi-welcome aboard :-)
<FeistyFa1n> where are we?
<sabdfl> Gwaihir: ?
<Gwaihir> ready...
<Seveas> looks good
<Gwaihir> Ciao everyone, my full and real name is Milo Casagrande ( https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MiloCasagrande / https://launchpad.net/~milo )
<Gwaihir> I've contributed to Ubuntu mainly with translations (documentation and software) for the italian team and to the italian wiki, I'm one of the administrators of the Ubuntu Italian Translators team and of the new Ubuntu Italian Documentation team and also a new member of the "Consiglio della comunit italiana di Ubuntu" (read as locoteam)
<Gwaihir> I am involved with the "upstream" italian team of GNOME trying to improve the collaboration with Rosetta/Ubuntu
<mr_pouit> elmo, thanks ;)
<ogra> OgMaciel, you definately care more for your beard ... but lets stop that now to not spam the channel :)
<OgMaciel> hehehe
<mdke> I'd like to champion Gwaihir. He is one of the most substantial contributors to the Italian community, admin of the translation team, and has recently been added to the group of 5 on our Italian Locoteam Council. He puts in loads of work and works well with different communities (see his work with Gnome upstream translators)
<mdke> he's also sent patches to the English documentation, for which we are thankful too
<Gwaihir> thanks mdke
<mlind> sorry, I gotta bail. Vorian_ gets my +1 for contributing @ ubuntuforums. good night all.
<Seveaz> mdke: impressive
<mdke> yeah, he rocks
<mdke> works very well to introduce new users to contributing to translation and so on, as well as doing loads of translation himself
<Gwaihir> now i'm trying to improve also the collaboration with debian translators...
<Gwaihir> for the debian documentation that is inside rosetta and that we are translating
<elmo> +1 from me
<sabdfl> Gwaihir: where would you say you've made your biggest contribution to the project?
<Gwaihir> on the italian wiki
<sabdfl> and when did you start that effort?
<Gwaihir> translating and shaping it
<Gwaihir> I started using ubuntu in 2004 with warty
<sabdfl> are the different parts of the italian ubuntu community now working well together?
<mdke> sabdfl: seriously :)
<sabdfl> glad to hear it :-)
<DktrKranz> i can confirm it ;)
<Gwaihir> yes, forum and wiki are working well toghether
<sabdfl> ok, +1 from me for Gwaihir on the back of loco and wiki contributions over a long time
<mdke> sabdfl: I posted an update here: http://www.mdke.org/?p=74, for when you have a rainy day
<mdke> or a rainy minute
<sabdfl> welcome pending mako's thoughts!
<Seveaz> next is Vorian_
<Vorian_> Hello! I am Stephen Stalcup | https://launchpad.net/~stalcups | https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StephenStalcup | Ohio Team Leader and appointed Forums Council Secretary at today's Forums Council meeting.
<Gwaihir> that's great.. .thanks sabdfl,
<Gwaihir> thanks elmo too
<rpereir1> Gwaihir: congrats.
<sabdfl> mdke: nice update, thanks for the url
<mdke> sabdfl: sure
<Gwaihir> thanks all guys
<Seveas> any ohio folks around to cheer?
<meatballhat> I am here to cheer for Vorian_.  Since founding the Ohio LoCo Team he has been incredibly active in encouraging new membership and participation.  He leads our Team with balance and clarity, and is brimming with ideas for Ubuntu advocacy.  Aside from all that, he's a perfect gentleman :)
* jacobmp92 cheers loud for Vorian_!
<Vorian_> I had some pre meeting cheers from ubuntugeek and PriceChild..
<Vorian_> [16:11]  <ubuntugeek> I'll also vouch for vorian's membership .. i gotta leave in 15 minutes :)
<Vorian_> [16:12]  <PriceChild> I'll vouch for Vorian_
<sabdfl> team ohio! land of the famous linuxfest :-)
<jacobmp92> Vorian has been very active in the Ohio Loco meetings, and has gotten the whole thing off of the ground
<Seveas> Vorian_, nice postcount as well
<BuffaloSoldier> I am here cheering for Vorian_, he is a very valuable and knowledgable forum staff and a nice guy :)
<mdke> ohio is obviously Ubuntu territory
<Vorian_> sabdfl: woot!
<Vorian_> mdke: yes it is!
<mdke> cool
<theidiotthatisme> I also am here to cheer for Vorian_! He recently encouraged me in joining the Ohio LoCo team and has provided large amounts of encouragement and support for starting projects within the team
<Vorian_> We are working hard to become an approved team,
<sabdfl> bit short of coffee beans there, surely?
<Vorian_> ubuntugeek stole them... hehe
<zenwhen> Am I too late to cheer for Vorian_
<sabdfl> ok, +1 from me on the back of loco team leadership and forums contribution, and support from many august members
<jacobmp92> zenwhen, cheer now, you are right on time
<coz_> zenwhen, go to the meeting and offer your aupport?
<jenda> zenwhen: just in time ;)
<mdke> cheer away zenwhen
<sabdfl> and a VERY neat wiki page :-)
* Vorian_ does three backflips
<sabdfl> elmo?
* Vorian_ hugs sabdfl 
<zenwhen> Vorian is great, has been a great staffer, and I would put my name behind him.
* jenda joins the cheering to Vorian_ acrobatics
<elmo> +1
<Seveas> great :)
* Vorian_ hugs elmo 
<sabdfl> alrighty then
<Seveas> DktrKranz, you're up
<Vorian_> thanks guys!
<DktrKranz> here we go
<DktrKranz> i, my name is Luca Falavigna (Wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LucaFalavigna, Launchpad: https://launchpad.net/~dktrkranz). I'm a 23-year-old boy living in Italy
<Seveas> DktrKranz, is LAST on the list :)
<DktrKranz> I started using Ubuntu with Breezy after a long "partnership" with Debian and now I would like to give my contribute back to Ubuntu community
<popey> I'm here to support Luca. He's done a tremendous amount on the support tickets - #1 contributor to Ubuntu with 35 Million karma! (I'll catch you one day soon Luca! :) )
<DktrKranz> I started by helping people with Support tracker trying to solve their requests and by writing https://help.launchpad.net/SupportTrackerTour help page
<DktrKranz> I'm also active on Italian Ubuntu Forum and I recently became a Moderator
<DktrKranz> Now I would like to provide some more help to bug triaging and develop Forum Ambassadors (https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/forum-ambassadors) for Italian forum too
<DktrKranz> I just finished talking in #ubuntu-it-meeting about it
<DktrKranz> what a night! :)
<mdke> ok, at the risk of OD-ing on cheerleading, I'd like to support DktrKranz too. He is LP karma leader, thanks to sabdfl's gratuitous plugging of the support tracker ;p and has contributed substantially in the Italian community too; recently becoming a forum moderator and I've been hearing lots of good things about his work on the forum. Support tracker stuff speaks for itself, obviously
<Seveas> 35 million karma....
<Seveas> INSANE
<DktrKranz> ahah popey :D
<popey> :)
<Seveas> ah, but the support tracker is very generous it seems ;)
<sabdfl> that's pretty incredible luca
<DktrKranz> it IS incredible ;)
<sabdfl> karma rebalancing is inevitable but should not detract from this sort of contribution
<dsas> DktrKranz has done loads of support tracker work, he overtook me on it quite quickly
<DktrKranz> i would like to fill a new bug: "too much karma for a single user" :D
<mdke> absolutely
<popey> oi!
<popey> not yet! :)
<Seveas> karma overflow ;)
<sabdfl> +1 from me just on the basis of support work
<mdke> he's also very humble, I convinced him to apply this evening
<DktrKranz> Seveas, :)
<DktrKranz> i already heard it.....
<sabdfl> DktrKranz: are you in touch with flacoste at all on improvements planned for the answer tracker?
<elmo> ha ha ha
<DktrKranz> yes
<elmo> THIRTY FIVE MILLION
<mdke> lol
<sabdfl> elmo: yes, we know it doesn't track new servers installed in the datacenter and give karma for that...
<DktrKranz> if he needs help in translating LP, count on me ok?
<sladen> that's going to overflow soon!
<dsas> I keep imagining little fingers going to mouths as people say that.
<elmo> I vote +35,000,000
<DktrKranz> ahah
<popey> :)
<sabdfl> on that happy note...
<sabdfl> WELCOME ABOARD!
<mdke> good work DktrKranz, keep it up
<popey> \o/ welcome DktrKranz
<dsas> well done Luca
<sabdfl> i think that concludes another CC meeting of NOTE
<DktrKranz> so 35.000.000 thanks :D
<zenwhen> welcome
<Gwaihir> good work DktrKranz
<sabdfl> seveas, thanks for keeping us on track
<mdke> good meeting, thanks go to Seveas
<rpereir1> welcome.
<Seveas> sabdfl, I'll keepmako on track tomorrow
<DktrKranz> a specia thank to mdke, dsas and popey
<sabdfl> will you send mako a transcript of everything after he left and ask him to ack+mark in LP those ones?
<sabdfl> thanks
<Seveas> have to go to bed now, have to get up in 5 hours
<DktrKranz> thanks Milo :D
<sabdfl> and please ack the ones we handled completely tonight, tomorrow :-)
<Seveas> will do
* Seveas off
<sabdfl> so those email addresses should be available soon
<sabdfl> thanks all
<Seveas> g'night all!
<sabdfl> and good night!
<zenwhen> thanks
<popey> nn
<Gwaihir> thansk
<DktrKranz> thank you sabdfl
<rpereir1> Thanks.
<Vorian_> thanks
<mdke> night all
<rpereir1> G'night
<Gwaihir> night all
<DktrKranz> nite
<auge> gnight all
<somerville32> :)
<RAV_TUX> I hope I am not too late?
<dsas> RAV_TUX: We've just finished. sorry.
<RAV_TUX> dsas: I hope Vorian got appointed as member?
<dsas> RAV_TUX: he did yes
<RAV_TUX> dsas: Awesome!
<RAV_TUX> Have a great day/night all
<Vorian_> hey RAV_TUX !
<Lutin> g'night guys
<mr_pouit> 'night
<ypsila> ???
<ypsila> help
<ypsila> any europeans here?
<dsas> ypsila: what's the problem?
<ypsila> no problem!
<ypsila> i would just have contact to other countries in europe
<Yann2> ?
<Yann2> what for?
<ypsila> contact?
<ypsila> to see what others do better or not?
<Yann2> i'm from ubuntufr... dude you're in europe and still awake ? :p
<Yann2> i'd be glad to tell you about us, but i've to go to bed now ;)
<Yann2> see you tomorrow
<ypsila> dors bien
<Yann2> merci :)
<ypsila> et
<apokryphos> most people on Freenode are Europeans, I'd say
<ypsila> je suis
<apokryphos> you can join us all for a chat in #ubuntu-offtopic =)
<ypsila> une femme!
<Yann2> ... and? that happens ^^
<Yann2> so, bye!
<ypsila> apokryphos: I do not care about nationality nor sex
<apokryphos> there are people of all genders and nationalities in there
<ypsila> yes
<ypsila> and I think that is a very good way
<ypsila> may I assume that you are from greece?
<apokryphos> from there, yes, but live in London
<apokryphos> join us in #ubuntu-offtopic though -- that's the place to talk.
<apokryphos> this place is reserved for scheduled meetings
<ypsila> apokryphos:  I apologize
<apokryphos> no worries
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 10 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 11 Jan 16:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 16 Jan 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 17 Jan 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 18 Jan 08:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 20 Jan 15:00 UTC: Xubuntu
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Current meeting: Edubuntu | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 11 Jan 16:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 16 Jan 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 17 Jan 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 18 Jan 08:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 20 Jan 15:00 UTC: Xubuntu
<juliux> hi all
* Hobbsee waves
<Hobbsee> @schedule sydney
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Australia/Sydney: Current meeting: Edubuntu | 12 Jan 03:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 17 Jan 07:00: Technical Board | 18 Jan 07:00: Edubuntu | 18 Jan 19:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 21 Jan 02:00: Xubuntu
* kgoetz waves to Hobbsee :)
<RichEd> hi all ... back in 1 min and then we kick off
* willvdl waves to all
<kgoetz> hi willvdl
* kgoetz blows the whistle
<RichEd> right let's get going ...
<RichEd> TECHNICAL UPDATE
* RichEd hands the mike to ogra
<ogra> sorry, building herd2 alongside the meeting
<ogra> so most important for tech ...
<ogra> we'll have herd2 this week, PLEASE TEST !!!!
<ogra> the next CD build on http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/edubuntu/daily/ should be ready to test
<ogra> (20070110)
<ogra> apart from that i worked massively on the new sound architecture for ltsp last week, we'll soon have volume control and mic support there
<ogra> there are some licence gliches with thze flash support library we need for backwards compatibility with the old esd architecture ...
<ogra> i'm not yet sure we'll get that sorted ...
<ogra> if we dont, we wont have sound support on systems where admins upgraded the server but not their ltsp install
<willvdl> hmm, flash licences.
<ogra> so that will need mentioning in the docs for feisty
<ogra> its not flash
<ogra> the new flash9 offers a programmer API to attach any kind of sound backend
<willvdl> thought I was confused
<RichEd> ogra: please explain "upgraded the server but not LTSP install" ...
<ogra> but to make it possible to hack on that they introduced an opensourced library ...
<Mithrandir> willvdl: the libflashsupport library uses openssl and lgpl-ed libs which uses gpl-ed libs, and the openssl and GPL licences are incompatibly.
<Mithrandir> s/y.$/e./
<willvdl> thanks
<ogra> RichEd, the ltsp clients have their own linux system *inside* the server
<ogra> you can get away with only upgrading the server and keep the old installation of ltsp in the old state ...
<RichEd> so why would someone update the server only ? any decent reason ?
<rodarvus> ogra, anything you want specifically tested besides that for Herd 2?
<ogra> which usually does no harm unless we change the package selection in ltsp massively
<ogra> rodarvus, in the links sercion of the edubuntu part on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Current are some instructions and links to more
<ogra> *section
<kgoetz> RichEd: not thinking about it would be my excuse ;)
<rodarvus> nice
<RichEd> my issue is : do we worry about a workaround / fix or do we just document what they should be dong themselves.
<RichEd> doing not dong :)
<ogra> edsadmin (piece of the network auth spec) also has license issues ...
<kgoetz> RichEd: you shouldnt force people to upgrade
<ogra> seems feisty will become my bureocracy release, where i have more to do with licenses and main inclusion reports than code :)
<ogra> RichEd, why should i upgrade a server that works fine ...
<rodarvus> ogra, Testing/Current lists 20061025 as current edubuntu. I suppose cdimage.u.c has something newer, right? :)
<ogra> many admins will go with the "never touch a running system" approach
<ogra> rodarvus, yes, Testing/Current will get an overhaul anyway, i just wanted to point to the testing procedure
<RichEd> ogra & kgoetz: but they have upgraded the server ??? so they have made a decision, but only gone 1/2 way thourgh the process ... or is that not a valid thought appraoch
<rodarvus> sure
<ogra> the links have some edubuntu sepcific tests ...
<kgoetz> RichEd: upgrading clients and upgraing servers is two thoughts, not one
<ogra> apart from that the normal ubuntu testing should be done
<kgoetz> and, for that matter, two actions
<ogra> right
<ogra> at some point i want to automate that so update-amanger will upgrade the thin clients as well
<kgoetz> i'd be... 'unhappy' if i got forced to upgrade parts of my ltsp 'because you said'
<ogra> but thats rather something for feisty+2
<RichEd> But the LTSP client resides in the server ... so essentially it is an update of the one box ?
<ogra> or for +1 if we get more manpower ;)
<ogra> RichEd, try to see it as two distinct systems
<kgoetz> RichEd: the packages are on one host yes, where they get installed and how is two seperate processes
<ogra> right
<ogra> a future target is to merge that ...
<kgoetz> we can both have a ~ on a server, we dont mess with each others ~/Desktops though :)
<RichEd> okay ... I am happy to accept that, just want to make sure we are not creating work for ourselves when "a dual upgrade" may be a more natural appraoch.
<RichEd> *approach
<ogra> its just something that we need to document
<ogra> we always forced upgrades of ltsp ... even rebuilds ...
<ogra> but ltsp is now in a state where thats not urgently necessary anymore
<ogra> so people who want to keep the old client setup can do so ...
<ogra> but will loose flash sound ...
<RichEd> I'm just trying to understand if there would be a valid reason / circumstances why someone would want to update the server only.
<ogra> (unless i find that libflashsupport works without libssl support)
<ogra> RichEd, because they forgot about the fact that ltsp needs to be upgraded separately for example ...
<RichEd> ogra: but that is an omission ... not a reason :)
<ogra> anyway, lets not discuss that to death, time is limited
<RichEd> okay
<ogra> just note that we need that documented, i'll care for the technical side
<willvdl> noted
<ogra> beyond that i merged a lot of ltsp fixes from contributors (i reviewed about about 100 patches during the christmas holidays)
<ogra> and had to care for my general ubuntu stuff (gnome-screensaver, gnome-power-manager, package merges)
<ogra> thats it from the tech side
<willvdl> I don't imagine cbx33 has had much time to work on the MOTD/ldm login thingy he showed last time
<ogra> he should rather get up to speed with SCP ;)
<ogra> even ldm/MOTDS is a nice thing i'd rather see that SCP is done by release ;)
<willvdl> Reminder to all, Pete Savage is representing us at BETT at the moment
<RichEd> ogra: w.r.t. rodarvus and his increased bandwidth for education ... can you "sit with him" to see what he can take over naturally to ease your load ?
<rodarvus> ogra, we can do it anytime you want, just arrange the meeting when you're available
<ogra> starting with CD testing, seed management and management of the metapackages would be a big help already ...
<rodarvus> (after herd 2, I suppose)
<ogra> oh, and CD building ...
<ogra> that should suffice for a start ...
<rodarvus> nice
<RichEd> ogra: can you list all of the "sections / components" you look after and mail to rodarvus and myself. i'll need this for the overview page anyway
<ogra> RichEd, ok
<RichEd> thanks
<ogra> rodarvus, i'll be travelling a lot this cycle ... so we should see that you are up to speed with most of the above before herd4
<rodarvus> indeed
<rodarvus> we need to do that asap
<ogra> there might be coming CD builds where i'm not around or even able to get online ...
<rodarvus> we can arrange for me to arrive "at work" a few hours earlier every day, so we have more time to communicate
<ogra> note that we wont need to care for ppc to much
<rodarvus> (while you're passing me these duties)
<ogra> so if you cant test it thats ok for a milestone
<rodarvus> ok. I have ppc here, but it needs to be arranged a few days in advance for testing
<ogra> (ppc is officially a community port from feisty on)
<rodarvus> yup
<RichEd> === TECHNICAL DOCUMENTATION ===
<RichEd> Anyone with anything here ?
<ogra> well, its up to you ... if you can test it we dont need to care to much on the official side ... its expected that the community takes more responsibilities here
<ogra> s/can/cant/
<willvdl> In the classic tradition of me mixing tech docs with other docs...
<willvdl> It's been mentioned a few times that we need to look at the scope of the handbook carefully
<willvdl> so that we can make use of topic based help etc. in the future (and present)
<ogra> could someone from our doc team prepare a svn checkout of selected docs i casn put into the edubuntu-docs package ? so we can get up to speed with the packaging after herd2 ?
<ogra> (and send it to me)
<willvdl> will ask on the doc-team channels
<ogra> edubuntu-docs is still empty ... and you guys know the quality of the specific docs and whicdh are shippable and which not (i hope) ...
<willvdl> perhaps LaserJock or nixternal might be of most help here
<ogra> yep
<ogra> oh, LaserJock started a nice discussion on the ML about packages for the second CD ... please participate there to keep it running ... we need an applist ...
<ogra> (and tons of main inclusion reports)
<willvdl> will speak to him about maintaining the discussion on the wiki-spec page
<willvdl> moodle popped up a few times
<ogra> well i think we reach more people through the ML
<ogra> i know :(
<ogra> moodle is my big nightmare
<ogra> it needs repackaging
<willvdl> ogra, meaning his list is under his wiki "home"
<ogra> thats fine, we can put the final list somewhere else ...
<ogra> this way people wont start linking to a WIP doc ;)
<willvdl> I like WIP docs :)
<ogra> i know ;)
<willvdl> on the wiki side: still busy archiving, cleaning and scraping stuff around
<willvdl> whenever I get a chance
<ogra> yeah, some people already complained :P
<RichEd> ?? about ?
<ogra> there was a breezy user who was looking for the lts.conf parameters wikipage ...
<ogra> i wouldnt even have expected people to still run breezy ltsp ... it was so minimal
<willvdl> I stopped deleting stuff without redirects after that
<ogra> thats good
<willvdl> ogra, the info is still there (never removed any breezy stuff) but was duplicated on help.u.c
<RichEd> have we come to any conclusion / standard as to how we maintain similar info for releases ?
<ogra> willvdl, right, but i couldnt point him to my bookmarked page :)
<willvdl> the doc-team has a spec on the subject
<willvdl> so any technical docs that end up on help.u.c is at the command of the doc-team
<willvdl> they are aware of the issues but still need to resolve a plan
<ogra> which is represented by LaserJock and nixternal for us
<willvdl> for release notes, etc or anything that goes on wiki.u.c, we just need to be intelligent on our naming
<ogra> but i'd like to not put to much load on LaserJock here, he's busy with assembling the second CD list and he wanted to take a lot of the MIRs
<willvdl> when pips1 is around, we can put some effort into shaping our wiki pages to be release specific etc.
<ogra> good
<RichEd> okay ... we must get this right ... it will avoid a lot of frustration & admin
<RichEd> ready to move on to artwork ?
<willvdl> it is straightforward enough to do. as ogra put it last time, simply using the namespace correctly solves most things
<ogra> right
<RichEd> === ARTWORK ===
<ogra> well, given that cbx33 is missing and AliasVegas isnt around either ... what about artwokr ?
<RichEd> As willvdl mentioned ... cbx33 is not here today ... he is at BETT ... more on that later.
<ogra> there was still no mail or something to the artwork mailing list ...
<ogra> ah
<RichEd> Do you have any urgent artwork issues ogra ... or can we leave the topic for next week ?
<ogra> i'd really like to see something going on ... would be nice to have the artwork on schedule ... feature freeze is on feb 8th
<willvdl> okie. will chat to cbx33 about it again when he's back
<ogra> by then we should at least have a basic concept ...
<RichEd> moving on ...
<RichEd> === COMMUNITY & DOCUMENTATION & WEB ===
<RichEd> Community wise ... edubuntu is represented at 2 big events this week and next week:
<RichEd> #1 BETT show in the UK - today, tomorrow & friday
<RichEd> Pete Savage (cbx33) is sharing a stand with Open Source Europe on our behalf
<willvdl>  : OpenForum Europe
<RichEd> (thanks)
<RichEd> Jono Bacon is cruising the exhibition halls & training area and networking for Edubuntu and Ubuntu community
<ogra> in case you didnt read the UWN ... there is also http://www.itwire.com.au/content/view/8392/53/
<RichEd> If anyone is interested: http://www.bettshow.com/
<ogra> :)
<RichEd> <quote>
<RichEd> BETT is the world's leading educational information & communications technologies (ICT) event, attracting 600 educational suppliers and over 28000 visitors, and bringing together the global teaching and learning community for four days of innovations and inspirations.
<RichEd> <endquote>
<RichEd> BETT = British Education and Training Technology
<RichEd> There are a few other Open Source exhibitors there, and we hope that there will be some good networking with them.
<RichEd> #2 Linux Conference Australia - in Sydney ... next week Mon-Fri
<RichEd> I'll be representing Edubuntu there, and will be delivering a presentation at the Education Mini Conference.
<juliux> i in germany we will present ubuntu via edubuntu and edubuntu on all big expos
<RichEd> Part will be a presentation on Edubuntu and where we are and where we have come from ...
<willvdl> cbx33 created an edubuntu leaflet for BETT
<willvdl> haven't had time yet to pop it into the marketing team channels but will do so soon
<RichEd> And then I will be trying to get a discussion going around how we take the spirit of Open Source software developement into the classroom to get the teachers & learners working in a collaborative way to address software / curriculum.
<juliux> willvdl, cool
<juliux> willvdl, did you have a link to the leaflet?
<willvdl> RichEd, are there workshops or just presentations?
<RichEd> So I hope to recruit people for our mailing lists and community, more from the end-user / education space than from the technical space.
<willvdl> juliux, not at the moment but can email to you
<juliux> willvdl, thxs
<willvdl> RichEd, great
<RichEd> Will I have 40 mins available ... I will present for about 25-30 and then explain how we are now looking at addressing the gap between desktop o/s and curriculum delvivery.
<RichEd> *delivery
<RichEd> I'll try to get people discussing in the meeting room, and then will take it offline for informal chats. There are quite a few Open Source and Education contacts there, also giving presentations, so we will be able to share ideas.
<RichEd> Ubuntu is also well represented at the main conference ... 3 or 4 presentations and some demo's as well.
<RichEd> This is the key Open Source conference for Australia for 2007 ... so we will have a good joint presence.
<RichEd> ---
<kgoetz> i'll try and make it to edubuntu stuff, just let me know when it is ;)
<RichEd> kgoetz: monday :)
<kgoetz> RichEd: ah, ok. i'll be there :)
<RichEd> Further on the community side, pips1 will be available from next week, and we will be (finally) getting the education community site. Lots of discussion and planning has been done, and now we need to get the site running.
<RichEd> ---
<willvdl> and we need nominations for the EC
<RichEd> ogra: is the EC vote on the first meeting of the month ?
<ogra> usually, yes
<RichEd> Either way, I'd like to nominate willvdl & cbx33
<RichEd> How many positions do we need to fill ?
<ogra> but for a new EC memeber we should first have a call on the ML and some nominations
<ogra> only jeromes
<ogra> i thought about having someone nominate someone on the ML, if this gets a second the person is on the list for the vote
<RichEd> And for the balance of community / canonical ... do we need an external or internal person ?
<RichEd> I presume community if it is to replace Jerome ?
<ogra> we initially said we want more community members than employees
<RichEd> And what dictates the size of the EC ?
<ogra> but i dont really see a reason why we shouldnt rotate that and say this time we'll have more employees, next time more community people again
<ogra> we wanted to have an odd number to make decisions easier ... and five sounded like a good number
<ogra> there was never a dictate for amount of members
<ogra> we can go on with four as well ...
<ogra> even with three
<RichEd> 3 is a bit low ...
<ogra> i like odd numbers more though ...
<ogra> right
<RichEd> let's get up to 5 again in feb i think
<ogra> but more than 5 is overkill
<ogra> right
<willvdl> agree
<ogra> even though we're only two EC members here atm, do we want to go over wills application ?
<ogra> (if he wants to go for EC he needs tzo be a member anyway)
<RichEd> Can you put a call out on the mail list for nominations this month ... and we consider nomination on the 31st Jan and vote on wed 7th Feb
<ogra> yep
<RichEd> Then we can make sure we have a god EC representation at both meetings.
<ogra> yep
<RichEd> --- okay that's all from me for today ---
<ogra> no EC action ?
<RichEd> Anyone else with any issues or topics ?
<ogra> will is on the agenda ....
<RichEd> sorry ...
<ogra> i mean its a no brainer anyway ...
<willvdl> I have a brain
<ogra> looking at the wikipage there are a lot of substantial contributions ... (would be odd if not for a paied contributor ;) )
* RichEd add strong support for willvdl 
<ogra> so since i know what will does and how much time he invests in edubuntu thats a general +1 from me
<ogra> RichEd, so thats a +1 as well ?
<RichEd> indeed
<RichEd> +1.5 if that is allowed
<ogra> oki, i'll contact LaserJock and highvoltage to confirm ...
<willvdl> why thank you
<ogra> hmm, we could even set a special rule that two voices suffice as long as we're only 4 members in the EC
<willvdl> 50% quorum
* ogra thinks for four weeks that should work :)
<RichEd> i'd say rather get support from 1 more via email ...
<ogra> RichEd, do you agree ?
<ogra> ok
<ogra> i'll care then
<ogra> willvdl, 50% welcome then ;)
<willvdl> Thanks :)
<RichEd> 50% could lead to a split
<RichEd> And also I am sure that highvoltage will give +1 witrhout even thinking about it :)
<RichEd> *wirhout
<ogra> i'll give you some time to do your paypal stuff with highvoltage and LaserJock ... bribing is very welcome :P
<RichEd> bah
<juliux> lol
<willvdl> I know where highvoltage lives
<ogra> hmm, even though paypal still has no beer-transfer support ...
<Hobbsee> ogra: now *there's* a thought for some quick money...from memberships....must be time for another kubuntu meeting with some memberships then...  :P
<willvdl> ogra, there's a gap in the market...
<RichEd> Okay ... are we ready to wrap up for today ? I have a whack of a document pack to get through before silbs leaves the office today.
<ogra> Hobbsee, ;)
<willvdl> Woot. thanks folks
<ogra> RichEd, indeed, thanks
<RichEd> thanks all
* highvoltage says a belated +1 for willvdl
<RichEd> thanks highvoltage :)
<highvoltage> :)
<Feral_Kid> Hmmm, looks like I missed it... I guess I should put a little more effort into reading and I would have known the correct channel...
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 11 Jan 16:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 16 Jan 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 17 Jan 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 18 Jan 08:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 20 Jan 15:00 UTC: Xubuntu | 24 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu
<juliux> @schedule berlin
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Berlin: 11 Jan 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 16 Jan 21:00: Technical Board | 17 Jan 21:00: Edubuntu | 18 Jan 09:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 20 Jan 16:00: Xubuntu | 24 Jan 13:00: Edubuntu
<Hobbsee> @schedule sydney
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Australia/Sydney: 12 Jan 03:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 17 Jan 07:00: Technical Board | 18 Jan 07:00: Edubuntu | 18 Jan 19:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 21 Jan 02:00: Xubuntu | 24 Jan 23:00: Edubuntu
* Hobbsee wonders when they're choosing the new CC people
<jenda> Hobbsee: any idea about that?
<Hobbsee> jenda: none at all - i missed the CC meeting earlier
<Hobbsee> !logs
<jenda> hmm, i was here for the meeting, but obviously not paying enough attention :)
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-01-11
<lotusleaf> a voice from above says "Kubuntu"
<lotusleaf> and you weep with joy
<pitti> hi
<kylem> morning pitti
* fabbione whistles
<ogra_> hey
* ogra_ gets rid of the tail 
<dholbach> hiya
* BenC goes to smoke a quick one before the meeting
* fabbione joins BenC 
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Current meeting: Ubuntu Development Team | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 16 Jan 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 17 Jan 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 18 Jan 08:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 20 Jan 15:00 UTC: Xubuntu | 24 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu
<cjwatson> afternoon
<ogra> yes, thats right ...
<doko> hi
<Riddell> it's been a while
<ogra> yeah ... last year
<sfllaw> cjwatson: Hello.
<iwj> Hi.  I'll try to keep at least half an eye on here ...
<seb128> just for information I need to go around 16:45utc
<Mithrandir> pong
<cjwatson> let's get started, then
<cjwatson> hope you all had a good Christmas break
<seb128> very good, thank you ;)
<cjwatson> and that everyone is now plugging away towards feature freeze :-)
* dholbach hugs seb128
<cjwatson> which is disturbingly soon
* seb128 hugs dholbach
<Mithrandir> cjwatson: can I go late?  My writeup's not ready yet.
<cjwatson> we'll go in wiki page order
<cjwatson> BenC: you're first
<BenC> ...
<BenC> :: Specs
<BenC> * driver-device-manager: Kernel patched with disable-auto-binding capability sent to Keybuk for udev integration. UI being worked on.
<BenC> * driver-backports: Empty linux-backports-modules-2.6.20 uploaded. Empty packages being built for all kernels on all arches. Next linux-meta upload will have the linux-image-* meta packages depending on these so all systems will download it.
<BenC> * ubiquity-driver-updates: NO PROGRESS.
<BenC> :: Work for past week
<BenC> * 2.6.20-rc4 went in for Herd 2.
<BenC> * 2.6.20 bug reports are increasing gradually, hopefully a sign of increased testing and not increased instability. Lots of the bug reports are retests of ones already reported in prior releases, so aren't regressions. Also, 2.6.20 seems to be closing quite a few bugs from edgy/dapper.
<BenC> * Testing of paravirt-ops with VMI patches.
<BenC> :: Work for next week
<BenC> * Get decent driver-device-manager UI ready for sprint demo.
<BenC> * ubiquity-driver-updates needs progress.
* doko just noticed that the atheros driver isn't working
<cjwatson> did I remember to ask you about linux-kernel-crash-dump when we spoke yesterday?
<cjwatson> I didn't seem to take notes about it if I did :-(
<BenC> yeah, and I forgot to add it
<BenC> not much to say
<BenC> I need to get the userspace ready, and I have the scripts for it, just need time
<cjwatson> ok
<cjwatson> Keybuk: is the udev integration in your update, or can you comment on it now?
<Riddell> Keybuk said he was having a light IRC day today
<cjwatson> he's around
<Keybuk> cjwatson: udev integration will be done at the sprint
<BenC> Keybuk: is the patch doing what it needs to do?
<Keybuk> it's not much work, and would greatly benefit from having people around to help with
<cjwatson> there are specs depending on that, aren't there?
<Keybuk> BenC: I have no idea
<Keybuk> I haven't tested it yet
<Keybuk> cjwatson: no specs as such, just a general desire to have it
<BenC> Keybuk: driver-device-manager depends on it
<BenC> the UI can't really do what it needs as spec'd without the changes to udev/kernel
<BenC> otherwise I just have a mod-param editor :)
<Riddell> BenC: are you keeping any kind of UI independence in mind when writing driver-device-manager?
<BenC> Ridell: I (ab)used hal-driver-manager as a base, which is pygtk...the core functions are a python class though, so the UI is independent
<Riddell> that sounds sane, I have a kde-hal-device-manager so a potential future KDE frontend wouldn't be too hard
<cjwatson> ok, let's move on and take the rest to #ubuntu-devel
<cjwatson> next is me
<cjwatson> ubiquity-advanced-partitioner: Initial version merged just before Christmas; invokable with 'ubiquity --new-partitioner'. See ubuntu-devel@ for caveats (not pretty, slow, etc.). Please test.
<cjwatson> ubiquity-release-notes: Implemented.
<cjwatson> ubiquity-automation: Started looking at switching over to GtkAssistant, which obsoletes a lot of the most horrible stuff in ubiquity.frontend.gtkui. Unfortunately glade-3 crashes a bit too much in the presence of this widget. Sent a patch to gtk+ upstream; waiting until that's released before proceeding.
<cjwatson> misc: Recruitment, management/HR intro meeting in London, chatting with folks I manage, and lots of other stuff.
<cjwatson> also spent a pile of today cleaning up unexpected Herd 2 issues
<sfllaw> cjwatson: Thanks for the HR followup.  I had a friend say he was finally re-contacted after a few months.
<Mithrandir> cjwatson: do we know who'll be taking over your installer work?
<BenC> Mithrandir: are you volunteering? :)
<ogra> would you mind holding a little 1-2h workshop in oslo about it ?
<ogra> (it == d-i)
<Mithrandir> BenC: I'm doing release management and archive admin, so no.
* fabbione removes installer bits from his report
<Riddell> cjwatson: what's the status of ubiquity slideshow and migration assistant?
<iwj> How about holding a kind of d-i induction thingum at the sprint ?
<cjwatson> sure, I can try
* ogra would like to know more about d-i and probably take some small responsibilities ... but surely not the maintenance of it all
<cjwatson> Riddell: slideshow> no progress, migration-assistant> Evan says it should be mergeable soon
<iwj> cjwatson: You could count me in too.
<cjwatson> I'll add it to the agenda
<cjwatson> sfllaw: we're gradually cranking through the backlog
<cjwatson> phone; somebody go next
<sfllaw> Me.
<dholbach> i guess that's me
<dholbach> wiki order?
<ogra> wiki order :)
<sfllaw> dholbach: Go.
<dholbach> Done
<dholbach>  * GNOME 2.17.5
<dholbach>  * catching up with loads of mails
<dholbach>  * bug triage
<dholbach>  * artwork packaging coaching - first user!
<dholbach>  * work on the art-builder
<dholbach>  * worked on bughelper (holiday hacking)
<dholbach> To do
<dholbach>  * finish prio 1 goals for art-builder and help write some documentation
<dholbach>  * more bug triage
<dholbach>  * work on bughelper and finish the new file format (and write documentation on how to use it)
<cjwatson> </phone>
<Riddell> dholbach: what's bughelper?
<dholbach> bughelper will be a tool that hopefully everybody in the bugsquad will empty his/her brain in to
<sfllaw> *plop*
<Riddell> bit harry potter that :)
<dholbach> so that you can run     bughelper <LP URL>   and it gives out messages on certain bugs
<dholbach> like bugs they might be dups of, general questions you might want to ask, etc
<ogra> so its an xml-rpc client for malone ?
<dholbach> atm it does HTLM
<dholbach> HTML
<dholbach> but we hope to get xml dumps soon
<cjwatson> expediency++
<dholbach> thanks a lot heno for starting it
<mvo> empty brain? its strong liquor?
<heno> just did the first brain dump :)
<ogra> cjwatson, was that a name suggestion ?
<dholbach> Riddell: we'll have harry potter release names for it - thanks for the suggestion :-)
<seb128> cjwatson: can I go next? my update is quite similar to Daniel's one, and I've to go around 16:45utc, not sure that will be my turn before
<dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugHelper
<cjwatson> seb128: yes
<sfllaw> dholbach: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spells_in_Harry_Potter
<dholbach> sfllaw: I know them all ;-)
<dholbach> sfllaw: seb128 too :)
<sfllaw> OMG.
<cjwatson> dholbach: thanks (and thanks for bughelper, I continue to hope to use it soon :-))
<cjwatson> seb128: go
<seb128> Done:
<seb128>  GNOME 2.17.5
<seb128>  started bugs and mails catching up
<seb128>  gstreamer updates for easy-codec-installation
<seb128> .
<seb128> Next week:
<seb128>  keep catching up with bugs and mails
<seb128>  work on tab-consistency
<seb128>  work on easy-codec-insallation
<seb128>  review compiz patches and update to the new version
<mvo> seb128: what is that plan with tab-consitency? will you try to push some api changes upstream?
<seb128> mvo: let me look at it before pushing things upstream, but yes, I would not like to have to keep distribution specific changes for it
* mvo nods
<seb128> mvo: we can have a look at it during the sprint if you are interested ;)
<cjwatson> the API in the spec doesn't look totally un-upstreamable
<mvo> seb128: I am
<cjwatson> has GTK upstream API-frozen yet?
<cjwatson> if so we should at least try to agree it with them for the future ...
<seb128> cjwatson: GNOME 2.18 will ship with GTK 2.10.n and I doubt they will change that for 2.10
<seb128> we can keep patches until 2.12 though
<seb128> yeah, I'll speak with them before doing anything
<cjwatson> oh, of course, GTK 2.10 has already finished, right
<cjwatson> seb128: thanks
<cjwatson> fabbione: next
<fabbione> Done:
<fabbione> * sparc64-installer: implemented. fixed 2 bugs after archive freeze that didn't make the cd. Need to test one more installation case that did occour to my head only today and requires to download some Solaris iso's.
<fabbione> * streched my wings on -certification/-support procedures. LP privileges and stuff like that.
<fabbione> * sparc64-stabilization: spent a day debugging parted_server crash on Niagara.
<fabbione> * sparc64-64-bit-apps: fixed glibc sparc64 libpthread linking. SRU is waiting QA and the usual 7 days staging in -proposed.
<fabbione> * ubuntu-feisty-ha-cluster: updated openais. redhat-cluster-suite pending archive re-opening. GFS1 is still doomed. Upstream is not porting to .19/.20 yet because it's a royal mess but they will have to do it.
<fabbione> * sparc64-niagara-ssl-accelerator: needs reassignment.
<fabbione> * integrity-check: needs reassignment.
<fabbione> * tested different kernel bits. (HI BEN! :))
<fabbione> TODO
<fabbione>  * test ubuntu-feisty-ha-cluster. cleanup redhat-cluster-suite init scripts a bit. tons of init updates from upstream needs merging.
<fabbione>  * prepare for Oslo.
<cjwatson> Keybuk: reassignment's probably within your team, unless the niagara stuff belongs with kernel folks?
<fabbione> cjwatson: niagara -> kernel
<Keybuk> cjwatson: it's a kernel thing; but we haven't yet discussed who it would be perfect for
<cjwatson> fabbione: does anyone in the team other than you have the hardware?
<Keybuk> obviously that person would need the Niagara hardware
<fabbione> cjwatson: Montreal has 2 Niagara
<cjwatson> kylem: are you interested?
<fabbione> and there is no need to have hw in place. remote access is fine
<cjwatson> I don't think it would be high priority for Kyle, but if he has a bit of time ...
<kylem> cjwatson, i've not looked into it since uds, so can i say something non-committal, like "tentatively"? :)
<fabbione> kylem: no changes since.
<cjwatson> kylem: sure, I won't hold you to it
<cjwatson> kylem: but if you could investigate and let me know roughly how much work you think it would be, that would be good
<kylem> ok.
<cjwatson> fabbione: thanks
<cjwatson> heno: next
<heno> * multi-lingual-speech -- good progress on the gnome-speech eSpeak driver
<heno> * gdm-accessibility -- Upstream testers report Orca sworking with GDM
<heno> * a11y-other -- gnome-mag should be rebuilt with composite
<heno> * a11y-future -- started working with a group at TU Karlsruhe that has just received govt. funding to improve a11y in Ubuntu
<heno> * forum-based ISO testing - 40-odd people have 'signed up' to test, though only 2 ISO test has come in so far. The fast turnover of testing may be a problem. Post-release testing has it's value too at this early release, so I'll encourage that to help build a team. See: http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=201
<heno> * forum-other -- I attended to first Forum Council meeting and continue to work with the Forum Ambassadors team.
<heno> * launchpad-contact - If you haven't done so already, please add you favourite small LP bugs to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DevelTeamLPWishList -- I've also invited matthewrevell along today for Q&A
<matthewrevell> Hello
<dholbach> heno: I'll have a look at gnome-mag
<cjwatson> I'm hoping to review the ISO testing work after Herd 2 is out
<cjwatson> I think time is probably too short to familiarise myself with it first, this time round
<heno> cjwatson: I'm sure it will need some tweaking
<cjwatson> though I'll have a glance in case there's anything obvious
<heno> I would expect a gradual start
<cjwatson> Karlsruhe> I have an item on the distro sprint agenda to make contact with them while we're all there
<heno> I'm keeping my eye on new reports coming in
<cjwatson> we should make an effort to draw them into our development community
<heno> cjwatson: perhaps two days after their meeting, that will be a very busy time for them
<heno> they are still figuring out what to do
<heno> My father will make a presentation on my behalf there
<cjwatson> heno: feel free to CC me on discussions with them; I'd like to keep informed on that
<heno> cjwatson: cool, will do
<cjwatson> matthewrevell: we'll get through the usual updates, and come to you at the end, if that's ok
<cjwatson> heno: thanks
<cjwatson> iwj: next?
<matthewrevell> cjwatson: Yeah, that sound s great
<Keybuk> I have a paste from iwj, if he's not here?
<cjwatson> Keybuk: go ahead, for speed
<pitti> <iwj> Hi.  I'll try to keep at least half an eye on here ... <= not enough eyes, apparently
<Keybuk> Done: gnome-app-install-codecs - this is now pretty much implemented but it needs to be properly deployed and integration tested.  mvo is reviewing my changes.  Thanks also to Tim Mueller and seb for their work on easy-codec-installation (the upper of the two layers in this linked pair of specs).
<Keybuk> To do: automated-testing-deployment - just picked this up today again.  Thanks to mvo for helpful contributions regarding integration with apt.
<Keybuk> Blocked: winmodem-support - Decision needs to be made (by Tech board?) about nonfree drivers.  (Please let us not go down the binary driver rathole on this one!)
<Keybuk> Unchanged since before Christmas: consistent-login-screen.
<Keybuk> iwj: the decision about non-free drivers has already been made
<pitti> what was the outcome?
<Keybuk> where there is no free alternative, we will ship non-free drivers and/or firmware in restricted
<cjwatson> s/will/may/
<ogra> as we always did ?
<cjwatson> the decision was that we will decide on a case-by-case basis
<cjwatson> (if that makes sense)
<cjwatson> we didn't take a blanket decision to ship all possible non-free drivers for which there is no free alternative
<cjwatson> at least, that's my fairly clear memory from the call ...
<Riddell> <doorbell>
<Riddell> back
<cjwatson> we can take the drivers discussion elsewhere, I suppose, for when iwj gets back
<cjwatson> iwj: thanks
<cjwatson> Riddell: next
<Riddell> done: herd 2 ready to go
<Riddell>       kubuntu-update-manager: started, progressing well, although not got to the more tricky parts yet
<Riddell>       kubuntu-feisty-ubiquity: qt 4 port complete and working well
<Riddell> todo: kubuntu-update-manager
<mvo> Riddell: is there anything to look at/merge for kubutnu-update-manager yet?
<Riddell> mvo: not yet, probably after the weekend though
<mvo> Riddell: nice! we should have a session at oslo together too
<Riddell> definately
<cjwatson> Riddell: thanks
<cjwatson> kylem: next
<kylem> Done:
<kylem>   * Merged backports into the -proposed kernels
<kylem>   * linux-source-2.6.17 (2.6.17.1-50.50) uploaded to edgy-proposed
<kylem>   * linux-source-2.6.15 (2.6.15-50.60) uploaded to dapper-proposed
<kylem>   * sky2 patches for {edgy,dapper}-security
<cjwatson> (is kwwii still attending these meetings?)
<kylem>   * scsi-scan patch for dapper-security
<kylem> In Progress:
<kylem>   * MODULE_FIRMWARE annotations for drivers in ubuntu/
<kylem> Todo:
<kylem>   * Merge dapper-security into dapper-proposed kernels and re-upload
<cjwatson> hmm, I should check that Soyuz will be able to handle -proposed >> -updates
<cjwatson> in terms of versions
<Mithrandir> cjwatson: I have a RL meeting in about 15 minutes, can I go after Kyle?
<Riddell> cjwatson: no kwwii at the moment, but may well be again soon
<cjwatson> Mithrandir: yes
<cjwatson> Riddell: ok
<cjwatson> Mithrandir: if you could review the -proposed uploads at the next convenient time, that would be good
<cjwatson> kylem: thanks
<cjwatson> Mithrandir: next
<Mithrandir> network-roaming: poked at it, simple enough, got preempted by herd 2
<Mithrandir> changelog-closes-bugs: to be done at sprint
<Mithrandir> grub2: to be given to iwj; no progress
<Mithrandir> misc: herd 2 almost there, source NEW almost completely emptied
<Mithrandir> there's a bunch of archive stuff to do; I'll do that once I'm done with herd 2.
<kylem> Mithrandir, ignore the one in dapper-proposed, i need to upload a new one b/c i forgot the security.
<cjwatson> $beer{Mithrandir}++ for source NEW
<Riddell> Mithrandir: ETA for herd 2?
<Mithrandir> Riddell: tonight, assuming I can find somebody to test ppc desktop CD.
<Mithrandir> else, tomorrow
<Riddell> Mithrandir: I'll download it now, I want to get this thing out :)
* pitti will test it as soon as it arrives
<Mithrandir> kylem: ignore or reject?
<Mithrandir> Riddell: yay, thanks.
<seb128> I've to go, bbl
<cjwatson> seb128: ok
* iwj gets off the phone.  Sorry about that.
<Mithrandir> publisher run is almost finished, I'll build livefs-es and the live ISOs after that.
<cjwatson> Mithrandir: thanks, good luck with the rest of the milestone
<cjwatson> pitti: next
<kylem> Mithrandir, whichever.
<pitti> Done:
<pitti>  * bug-reporting-tool: version with manual apport file upload is in feisty; version with Launchpad cloakroom upload is ready in apport-cloakroom branch, waiting for Malone to actually get along with those blobs (Bjorn asserted that this will work by the sprint)
<pitti>  * increase-hwdb-participation: some initial discussion with cjwatson and ogra, need more discussion with cjwatson; <rant>This is a very poor spec without any implementation bits *at all*; how did this make it to approved?</rant>
<ogra> i have to see how myuch time my ill dog demands from me, but if i find time i'll test as well
<pitti>  * lots of apport refactorization and UI redesign: now it's much more robust code, ui workflow is covered by regression tests, and easily portable to other UIs (Qt/CLI/etc.)
<pitti>  * SRU bug 59946 (gnome-system-tools): uploaded fix for regression in g-s-t to -proposed; waiting for cjwatson to accept upload
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 59946 in gnome-system-tools "Admin tools require admin group membership" [High,Fix committed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/59946
<pitti>  * SRU bug 72125 (tzdata): edgy is in -proposed; dapper upload done, needs to be accepted
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 72125 in tzdata "Daylight Saving changes in Western Australia" [High,In progress]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/72125
<pitti>  * took a look at printerdrake for making a test Ubuntu package; unfortunately the Mandrake lib is unbuildable on Ubuntu, so for redesigning the UI we need to use Mdk live CDs
<pitti>  * lots of apport and hal bug fixing
<pitti>  * got through my some-2000 bug emails, and went through all hal bugs, triaged them, and fixed the low-hanging fruit
<pitti>  * herd-2 testing on amd64 and powerpc
<pitti> To Do:
<pitti>  * update langpacks for stables (this was postponed due to some Rosetta bugs, but they are fixed now); I need -proposed guru love for that again
<pitti>  * finish g-s-t and tzdata SRUs, do similar SRU for python-tz
<pitti>  * fix broken PtP cameras in edgy-proposed
<pitti>  * do pending security uploads while Kees is on LCA
<pitti>  * do my share of universe merges
<pitti>  * apport: abstract and refactor ubuntu specific bits (dpkg, malone) into separate classes, call for a discussion with Gnome, KDE, and some other distros about more widespread adoption
<pitti>  * holiday from next Wednesday to Friday, will be on the sprint on time, though
<iwj> cjwatson, Keybuk: I shouldn't be interrupted again, so we can talk about drivers whenever you feel like it ...
<cjwatson> pitti: increase-hwdb-participation> ogra would really be a better person for further discussion; it was initially assigned to me because we thought it would be an installer spec, but it turned out not to be; ogra knows much more about the hwdb bits than I
<pitti> cjwatson: I know; I mainly refered to negotiating the set debconf key, figuring out which users to notify/how to set a global lock, etc.
<cjwatson> ah, right, sure, any time you like
<ogra> cjwatson, but thats only about providing a popup on new nstalls
<pitti> cjwatson: if we have some time at the sprint, we can do it htere
<ogra> hwdb-overhaul might be my terrain
<cjwatson> SRUs> bugger. I have the next hour free and WILL do those two then.
<cjwatson> pitti: sprint> sure, sounds good
<cjwatson> pitti: thanks
<cjwatson> doko: next
* pitti hugs cjwatson for his tireless SRU processing
<doko> last and this week:
<doko>  - openoffice.org: updates to 2.1, prepared security updates
<doko>    for breezy, dapper (not necessary for edgy), ooo-amd64 need
<doko>    to be done.
<doko>  - feisty-toolchain: build binutils from FSF sources again,
<doko>    update gcc-4.1 to current CVS. 4.1.2 will be released end
<doko>    of January. Evaluated demoting gcc-3.4 (g77) to universe,
<doko>    requires more work (replacing with gfortran); doesn't look
<doko>    appropriate for feisty anymore.
<doko>  - feisty-toolchain+1: prepared gcc-4.2 packages, gcc-4.1
<doko>    packages without binaries built by gcc-4.2, updated gcc-snapshot,
<doko>    prepared packages after the gcj-eclipse merge into main
<doko>    line.
<doko>    now needs the archive and buildd support for the test rebuilds
<doko>  - python: prepared upgrade to python2.5 immediately after herd2
<doko>  - other: some upstream updates for main, prepared main inclusion
<doko>    reports for java, candidate interview
<doko> next week:
<doko>  - update python to 2.5 (2.5.1 will be released end of January)
<doko>  - update and test isdn (one of the negative things in the review
<doko>    of the c't magazine)
<Mithrandir> gtg, will read backlog
<ogra> does python2.5 mean we'll get a last minute transition ?
<doko> last minute?
<pitti> I thought we don't need such transitions any more?
<cjwatson> doko: are you aware of the state of rebuild testing? I think we were supposed to have one soon
<ogra> doko, feature freeze is feb 8th ...
<doko> we change the default to 2.5, rebuild some ppackages
<cjwatson> if it's "immediately after herd2" that's well before FF
<ogra> how much is "some" ?
<doko> cjwatson: no; we should have one after herd2, and after that one, we did plan for a testing rebuild
<cjwatson> doko: thanks
<cjwatson> mvo: next
<mvo> Did:
<mvo> - upgrade testing (automatic, update-manager -d, apt-get)
<mvo> - dapper-commercial/edgy-commercial opera reivew/upload
<mvo> - realplay testing for edgy-commercial, needs a full testsuit run before it can enter edgy-commercial
<mvo> - use auto-installed information in g-a-i when applications are removed
<mvo> - some initial process space separation for the dist-ugprader
<mvo> - command-not-found fixes and uploaded new version. feels good, do we want to get it into main and enable it by default?
<mvo> - fixes to the automatic-dist-upgrade testing system, more runs, but still no deployment in the data-center
<mvo> - CommonCustomizations features added/bugs fixed (mostly in g-a-i) and trying to contact the automatix2 guys
<mvo> - some hacking on the apt mirror download method
<mvo> - synaptic hacking for the AlwaysEnableUniverseMultiverse spec
<mvo> - popcon sru for #51149
<mvo> Will do:
<mvo> - finish synaptic/g-a-i modifications for AlwaysEnableUniverseMultiverse
<mvo> - get realplayer into edgy-commerical
<mvo> - resolve the last open issues for CommonCustomizations
<mvo> - more work on dist-upgrader-fixes
<dholbach> command-not-found++
<cjwatson> mvo: I'm not happy with command-not-found in main until https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/command-not-found/+bug/67726 is fixed ...
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 67726 in command-not-found "wrong exit code" [High,Confirmed] 
<iwj> mvo: Did you take a look at those g-a-i changes ?  Do you want to or shall I just upload and fix them if they break ?
<pitti> . o O { isn't that simply a matter of sys.exit(1)? it should always fail AFAICS }
<mvo> cjwatson: right, that one will be fixed
<cjwatson> pitti: it's not difficult, but needs to be done
<iwj> No, exit status 127 not 1.
<pitti> ok, just checking whether I missed something
<iwj> Think `diff'./
<mvo> iwj: I ahd a look yesterday, they looked good, but I didn't test them
<iwj> s,/,,
<cjwatson> yes, 127 is bash's existing exit code
<mvo> iwj: I'm fine with you just uploading them, we can deal with any fallout
<iwj> mvo: Right, OK.  I've done some testing and I think we're still early enough in the cycle that a bit of minor breakage would be OK.
<pitti> iwj: well, right, 'some constant that matches the shell behaviour'
<iwj> Willdo.
<iwj> pitti: sys.exit(127).
<mvo> iwj: if you wait until tomorrow I can give it some testing tonight
<iwj> Sure.
* cjwatson notes 127 in the bug
* mvo will fix it right after the meeting
<cjwatson> ok, we're getting very short on time
<cjwatson> mvo: thanks
<cjwatson> ogra: next
<ogra> * last week:
<ogra>  - finished jetpipe (new ltsp printserver) pondering to split out a separate pkg, seems it makes sense to have a jetdirect forwarder for other pur
<ogra> poses as well
<ogra>  - did some more work on edubuntu-network-auth-server
<ogra>  - more ltsp-management gui work
<ogra>  - gnome-screensaver fixes (switched default)
<ogra>  - looked over power-manager and ltsp bugs
<ogra>  - herd 2
<ogra>  - edgy-plusone-thinclient-sound work
<ogra>  - some edulinux stuff (that will get a lot more in the near future)
<ogra> * next week:
<ogra>  - even more ltsp-manager
<ogra>  - more edubuntu-network-auth-server
<ogra>  - finish edgy-plusone-thinclient-sound implementation
<ogra>  - edulinux server preparations
<ogra> * approved specs:
<ogra>  - ltsp-fat-clients -no further work
<ogra>  - edubuntu-network-auth-server - slow progress
<ogra>  - edubuntu-network-auth-client - not started
<ogra>  - edgy-plusone-thinclient-sound - started
<ogra>  - ltsp-management-gui - started
<ogra>  - student-control-panel-upgrade - started by cbx33
<ogra>  - edubuntu-on-two-cds - not started (planned for the sprint)
<ogra>  - ltsp-persistent-home - ... sbalneav (still waiting for code review, pitti ?)
* pitti is not aware of blocking anything, can you please mail me?
<cjwatson> edulinux == http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EduLinux ?
<ogra> pitti, will do .. probably only the LP page needs update
<ogra> cjwatson, https://wiki.edubuntu.org/Edulinux
<ogra> the name will change
<cjwatson> yay for name clashes
<ogra> eurolinux (which would be appropriate and was the old name) is taken as well
<ogra> name suggestions that involve the EU are welcome btw ;)
<cjwatson> ogra: thanks
<cjwatson> rodarvus: here?
<ogra> he will attack moodle for main the next weeks and take over ieces of edubuntu CD building
<ogra> *pieces
<ogra> (since i will travel a lot for edulinux ill have to shorten my CD testing in the future)
<cjwatson> ok
<cjwatson> Keybuk: next
<Keybuk> Done:
<Keybuk>  * phone calls with team members
<Keybuk>  * management training/intro in London
<Keybuk>  * upstart development for replacement-initscripts
<Keybuk> To do:
<Keybuk>  * LCA next week
<Keybuk>  * udev/kernel/etc. planned for sprint
<Riddell> Keybuk: are you talking at LCA?
<pitti> Keybuk: do you expect to finish all your udev/upstart specs with your new manager duties, or do you fan them out?
<Keybuk> Riddell: I am, yes
<Keybuk> pitti: I'm intending to fan out most of the udev related ones
<doko> Keybuk, cjwatson: any word on the merge/sync from etch?
<Keybuk> there's not actually "much work" left in those, mostly just testing things
<Keybuk> and will be taking advantage of the sprint to do that, along with handing off some of the work
<Keybuk> doko: ?  I don't recall that discussion
<cjwatson> Keybuk: mailed to distro-team I think
<doko> Keybuk: see my mail to distro-team
<iwj> Testing code is a good way to get familiar with it so farming that out is a good idea.  (Oops, I seem to be volunteering.)
<Keybuk> ah yes, on tuesday, sorry
<Keybuk> doko: it's possible
<Keybuk> but not today
<iwj> s/Testing/Debugging/ really ...
<Keybuk> iwj: yes, that was my oh-so-cunning plan :)
<Keybuk> doko: the principle blocker is disk space
<doko> Keybuk: not our problem, file a ticket =)
<cjwatson> unstable and testing shouldn't be that much out of sync at the moment?
<Keybuk> doko: and my time, of which there's a very huge negative lack right now :-/
<cjwatson> negative lack? perfect, you have lots of time
* cjwatson runs away
<Keybuk> cjwatson: yes, integer underflow on $freetime
<cjwatson> Keybuk: thanks, we should keep moving - merges/syncs -> #ubuntu-devel perhaps
<cjwatson> sfllaw: next
<sfllaw> Done
<sfllaw>  * Holiday (Happy New Year everybody!)
<sfllaw>  * Flu
<sfllaw>  * SRU: tzdata
<sfllaw>  * Bug triage
<sfllaw>  * Contracts for interns
<sfllaw> To do
<sfllaw>  * Bug triage
<sfllaw>  * SRUs
<sfllaw>  * Get ready for interns on the 15th (computers, desks, etc.)
<sfllaw>  * Write more wiki documentation
<sfllaw>  * Hug day next week
<sfllaw> Bug stats
<sfllaw>  * Open (20871) +139 over last week
<sfllaw>  * Critical (20) -1 over last week
<sfllaw>  * Unconfirmed (10631) +92 over last week
<sfllaw>  * Unassigned (15810) +185 over last week
<sfllaw>  * All bugs ever reported (70500) +606 over last week
<cjwatson> please keep me informed about what's happening with the interns
<sfllaw> Will do.  They seem excited to show up on Monday.
<dholbach> sfllaw: did you talk to the guys forming the mozillateam?
<cjwatson> I hope we can make good use of them
<sfllaw> dholbach: I did and responded to their questions.
<sfllaw> Same.
<BenC> sfllaw: Can we have one assigned to each distro team member? :)
<sfllaw> BenC: I only have two interns and it is likely that they won't have enough skill in the beginning to make that worthwhile.
<sfllaw> The third one will be working with cr3 on automated test cases.
<BenC> cool, that's a good place for extra man power
<ogra> yeah
<cjwatson> sfllaw: thanks
<pitti> sfllaw: automated test cases> I'd be interested to get in the loop in that discussions (kees and I have this package-tests bzr branch)
<sfllaw> pitti: All right.
<cjwatson> matthewrevell: is there anything you'd like to bring up, or are you primarily lurking this time round?
<matthewrevell> cjwatson: I'm mostly lurking, but there are three small things I'd like to mention:
<matthewrevell> 1. If you have any suggestions for or annoyances with Launchpad, please feel free to badger me.
<cjwatson> please do
<matthewrevell> 2. I'm compiling a weekly list of top user-affecting issues, to take to the rest of the LP team. I may ask memebers of this team if there are things you
<matthewrevell> you'd like to see on that list
<matthewrevell> 3. Fix-it Friday is a regular thing now and a great opportunity to get small fixes done quickly.
<matthewrevell> Cheers :)
<iwj> matthewrevell: bug 52766
<Ubugtu> Bug 52766 on http://launchpad.net/bugs/52766 is private
<matthewrevell> iwj: thanks, I'll take a look
<iwj> `Unreadable formatting of bug bodies', for those who aren't in the appropriate access group.
<iwj> Incidentally I think it's a mistake that that bug has been marked as private, and I'd appreciate it if you could look into and/or review that decision.
<Riddell> matthewrevell: bug 78434
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 78434 in launchpad "product page layout broken in konqueror" [Undecided,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/78434
<matthewrevell> Riddell: Thanks
<matthewrevell> iwj: I'll raise the private issue.
<iwj> matthewrevell: Thanks.
<iwj> cjwatson: *prod*, you're being chairbeing, aren't you ?
<cjwatson> sorry, distracted chairbeing. yes.
<cjwatson> I believe we're done. Further launchpad issues => appropriate channels.
<cjwatson> AOB?
<iwj> There's the winmodem driver question from earlier.
<iwj> But the whole team needn't hang around for that unless they're interested.
<cjwatson> I think Scott and I may disagree somewhere but I think specific non-free drivers should be a TB decision.
<Keybuk> no, I agere
<iwj> Right.
<cjwatson> There are some free drivers that can be used in there, aren't there? At least for one piece.
<Keybuk> iwj: as part of that spec, you'll need to research which drivers are out there; which are free, which are binary-only and which need binary firmware blobs
<iwj> Yes, there is one modem supported by a free driver and I was going to look into the state there and see if we can get it included.
<iwj> Keybuk: Right, I did that.  Only one modem supported without binary drivers, unfortunately.
<iwj> That is, without binary _drivers_ (as opposed to firmware blobs).
<Keybuk> ok, and which were supported by binary drivers?
<Keybuk> and which binary drivers?
<cjwatson> binary firmware blobs is likely to be fairly uncontroversial for inclusion given the number we already have
<iwj> Oh, a fair few.
<Keybuk> iwj: so those need to be tested, and if we can easily support them, a decision on each driver given to the TB
<iwj> I haven't answered that question in detail but there are around half a dozen of the proprietary drivers.
<mjg59> Most modern winmodems (with the exception of Conexant chipsets) have free kernelspace drivers
<Keybuk> e.g. off hand, the hsfmodem daemon could probably be packaged
<cjwatson> I think -> #ubuntu-devel
<iwj> mjg59: I must have been looking in the wrong place.
<mjg59> iwj: snd-intel8x0m, for instance
<cjwatson> thanks everyone; adjourned
<mjg59> But yeah. -> -devel
<iwj> OK.
<pitti> thanks, guys
<cjwatson> (splitting the meeting is on the sprint agenda)
<fabbione> cya guys
<dholbach> thanks guys... see you
<gnomefreak> fabbione: you have a minute?
<fabbione> gnomefreak: 60
<fabbione> 59
<fabbione> 58
<fabbione> ..
<fabbione> gnomefreak: i need to go away soon.. so be fast
<gnomefreak> i just need a yes or no to adding the log bot to #ubuntu-mozillateam (not urgent)
<fabbione> gnomefreak: bug in LP -> assigned to me
<gnomefreak> ok ty
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 16 Jan 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 17 Jan 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 18 Jan 08:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 20 Jan 15:00 UTC: Xubuntu | 24 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 25 Jan 16:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team
<nixternal> @schedule chicago
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Chicago: 16 Jan 14:00: Technical Board | 17 Jan 14:00: Edubuntu | 18 Jan 02:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 20 Jan 09:00: Xubuntu | 24 Jan 06:00: Edubuntu | 25 Jan 10:00: Ubuntu Development Team
<bapoumba> Hello :)
<Sp4rKy> hi bapoumba :)
<bapoumba> salut ;)
<juliux> @schedule berlin
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Berlin: 16 Jan 21:00: Technical Board | 17 Jan 21:00: Edubuntu | 18 Jan 09:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 20 Jan 16:00: Xubuntu | 24 Jan 13:00: Edubuntu | 25 Jan 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team
<bapoumba> bye ;)
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-01-12
<fabbione> @schedule
<Ubug2> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 16 Jan 20:00: Technical Board | 17 Jan 20:00: Edubuntu | 18 Jan 08:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 20 Jan 15:00: Xubuntu | 24 Jan 12:00: Edubuntu | 25 Jan 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team
<datten> welcome mah *g*
<mah> *g* Hi datten. ;)
<mah> Naja, ich hab kein +u, also... :)
<l3on_> hi all
<l3on_> what king of channel is this ?
<l3on_> :D
<l3on_> *kind
<Owdgit> What it says on the box, a ubuntu meetings channel!
<l3on_> LOL
<l3on_> i'm sorry
<l3on_> :D
<l3on_> today no meeting is in program ?
<dennda> @schedule
<Ubug2> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 16 Jan 20:00: Technical Board | 17 Jan 20:00: Edubuntu | 18 Jan 08:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 20 Jan 15:00: Xubuntu | 24 Jan 12:00: Edubuntu | 25 Jan 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team
<dennda> @ l3on_ :)
<l3on_> :)
<atoponce> dennda: hear anything about our membership approval yet? :)
<dennda> atoponce, i asked Seveas on Wednesday about how we are getting told whether mako has decided to "ack" us or not
<dennda> atoponce, he said that probably mako will contact us via mail. Seveas added: "he cannot have mailed you yet, because i have to mail him first to pass a copy of the log on to him."
<dennda> atoponce, what did the other two of them think about your approval?
<dennda> atoponce, to be honest: i am constantly refreshing launchpad.net/~dennda from time to time ;)
<atoponce> :)
<atoponce> i'm doing the same
<atoponce> Seveas told me that i would get an email from launchpad itself saying that i was approved, and part of the team
<dennda> ah
<dennda> did the other two of them approve yoy?
<atoponce> everytime thunderbird says i have a new mail, i think that it must be, but alas, i am disappointed
<dennda> s/yoy/you
<l3on_> me too... i wanna the @ubuntu.com mail !!! :D
<atoponce> yeah
<l3on_> is it possible ?
<Adri2000> l3on_: you get one when you are a member
<atoponce> l3on_: you need to apply first
<dennda> l3on_, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NewMemberHowto
<l3on_> ah thanks
<l3on_> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/L3oN
<l3on_> :D
<dennda> l3on_, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda ;)
<dennda> l3on_, i do not know whether that is concerned being enough on the wiki ;)
<Thuglifer> so.. plf repos are no more?
<l3on_> :D
<mr_pouit> Thuglifer, it has been replaced by Medibuntu
<Thuglifer> ohh..
<dennda> hi Seveas
<Thuglifer> excellent. thanks for the help.
<l3on_> dennda, very interesting
<dennda> l3on_, if you want to know how the procedure of approval works i would suggest you read some logs of recent CC meetings
<dennda> the last one was last tuesday
<tonyyarusso> before that, dec 12
<atoponce> and it was lengthy... :)
<dennda> yes. and mako decided to turn off his computer the moment i had to introduce myself ;)
<l3on_> dennda, i think also forum op have to be approved to became a member
<dennda> l3on_, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/CC
<dennda> l3on_, i do not definitely know that. i suggest asking Seveas for further information.
<l3on_> dennda, it's a joke... don't worry... i'm not seriously interested...
<l3on_> i would like, but for first i've to finish my school
<dennda> ah ok :)
<l3on_> ;)
<dennda> l3on_, good luck with that. i wrote the first of my finish exams today
<l3on_> great !
<l3on_> congratulations dennda :D
* atoponce has been taking a break from school lately
<dennda> l3on_, i do not know the result, but thanks
<l3on_> i hope it'll satisfy you :D
<l3on_> Hi Shaved
<Shaved> ciao
<Shaved> hi
<tsmithe> see!
<tsmithe> see what i mean!!!
<tsmithe> jenda, you didn't welcome me - even though i left :P
* tsmithe guesses he's not around
<nixternal> @schedule chicago
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Chicago: 16 Jan 14:00: Technical Board | 17 Jan 14:00: Edubuntu | 18 Jan 02:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 20 Jan 09:00: Xubuntu | 24 Jan 06:00: Edubuntu | 25 Jan 10:00: Ubuntu Development Team
<stgraber> @schedule Zurich
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Zurich: 16 Jan 21:00: Technical Board | 17 Jan 21:00: Edubuntu | 18 Jan 09:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 20 Jan 16:00: Xubuntu | 24 Jan 13:00: Edubuntu | 25 Jan 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team
<sid> @schedule New York
<sid> @schedule NewYork
<Nafallo> does anyone know when the next CC are? :-)
<Nafallo> Seveas: ^
<Toadstool> @shedule New_York
<Toadstool> uhuh :)
<Toadstool> @schedule New_York
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/New_York: 16 Jan 15:00: Technical Board | 17 Jan 15:00: Edubuntu | 18 Jan 03:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 20 Jan 10:00: Xubuntu | 24 Jan 07:00: Edubuntu | 25 Jan 11:00: Ubuntu Development Team
<Toadstool> better
<Sp4rKy> :)
<Nafallo> Toadstool: CC!? ;-)
<Toadstool> er... /me runs away :)
<Nafallo> lol
<Toadstool> i'm just here to play with Ubugtu, not to be useful anyway :p
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-01-13
* #ubuntu-meeting  [freenode-info]  channel flooding and no channel staff around to help? please check with freenode support: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#gettinghelp
<LookTj> Hmm
<tsmithe> @schedule
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 16 Jan 20:00: Technical Board | 17 Jan 20:00: Edubuntu | 18 Jan 08:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 20 Jan 15:00: Xubuntu | 24 Jan 12:00: Edubuntu | 25 Jan 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team
<tsmithe> anyone know when's the next cc meeting?
<tsmithe> Seveas, do you?
<Seveas> tsmithe, no
<tsmithe> ok
<tsmithe> any idea?
<tonyyarusso> hasn't been scheduled yet tsmithe - wait a while
<tsmithe> ok
* tsmithe impatient :P
<tonyyarusso> Impatient, and you think you'll survive a CC meeting?  lol
<tsmithe> hmm
<tsmithe> shush :P
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-01-14
<dennda> hi atoponce! any news concerning approval? :)
<juliux> !logs
<juliux> !log
<juliux> @log
<juliux> @logs
<mc44> juliux: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/
<juliux> mc44, thxs
<jenda> !ubuntulog | juliux
<juliux> and know?
<jenda> aha, no ubotu :)
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-01-07
<dholbach> good morning
<Ziroday> @schedule Singapore
<ubotu> Schedule for Asia/Singapore: 10 Jan 04:00: Edubuntu meeting | 10 Jan 22:00: Desktop Team Development | 16 Jan 20:00: Edubuntu meeting | 17 Jan 20:00: Edubuntu meeting | 17 Jan 22:00: Desktop Team Development | 18 Jan 20:00: MOTU
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-01-08
<zul> @schedule montreal
<ubotu> Schedule for America/Montreal: 09 Jan 15:00: Edubuntu meeting | 10 Jan 09:00: Desktop Team Development | 16 Jan 07:00: Edubuntu meeting | 17 Jan 07:00: Edubuntu meeting | 17 Jan 09:00: Desktop Team Development | 18 Jan 07:00: MOTU
<zul> @schedule now
<soren> @now
<ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: January 08 2008, 15:03:08 - Next meeting: Edubuntu meeting in 1 day
<soren> zul: ^^ That's how you do it.
<zul> yeah i wasnt paying attention
<mathiaz> Hi everyone !
<sommer> hello
<zul> heylo
 * jdstrand waves
<nijaba> Hello and happy new year
 * nealmcb waves
 * nealmcb is having too much fun with his olpc :-)
 * soren wanders in
 * dantalizin1 looks up from his desk
<jdstrand> nealmcb: I'm supposed to be getting one of those any day now
 * sommer has one as well... very cool item
<nealmcb> jdstrand: mine came 4 days before the mail that said it was shipping....
<sommer> nealmcb: do you have ubuntu on it yet?
<mathiaz> all right - let's get started then.
<nealmcb> and I've now learned a bit of git and submitted my first patch
<zul> i wanna an eepc
<mathiaz> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 16:01. The chair is mathiaz.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<mathiaz> Welcome to the first ubuntu server team meeting of 2008 ! :)
<nealmcb> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
<mathiaz> This is your 13th meeting...
<mathiaz> So there isn't much on the agenda  - anyone wants to add something before we go through it ?
<zul> nope
<nealmcb> mathiaz: I guess an update on the postgrey bug
<mathiaz> nealmcb: bug number ?
<nealmcb> I'll get it
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Update on postgrey bug
<MootBot> New Topic:  Update on postgrey bug
<nealmcb> mathiaz: this is the one that you escalated a month or so ago, last I recall it was still in proposed
<nealmcb> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/postgrey/+bug/135038
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 135038 in db4.4 "postgrey fails regularly : "fatal: Can't call method "txn_commit" on an undefined value at /usr/sbin/postgrey line 223." (dup-of: 153996)" [Medium,Confirmed]
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 153996 in db4.4 "libdb4.4 in gutsy breaks postgrey and subversion" [High,Fix committed]
<nealmcb> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/db4.4/+bug/153996
<mathiaz> So I think it's just that the archive admins have been busy
<nealmcb> I know we don't like to use the meeting for bugs, so we can move on, but it was on my mind - surprising it hasn't been included yet
<nealmcb> yeah - I understand busy :-)
<mathiaz> I'll ask pitti about it.
<mathiaz> [ACTION] mathiaz will ask pitti about the state of bug 153996
<MootBot> ACTION received:  mathiaz will ask pitti about the state of bug 153996
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 153996 in db4.4 "libdb4.4 in gutsy breaks postgrey and subversion" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/153996
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Review ACTION points from previous meeting.
<MootBot> New Topic:  Review ACTION points from previous meeting.
<mathiaz> Previous meeting log:
<mathiaz> http://kryten.incognitus.net/mootbot/meetings/ubuntu-meeting.20071218_1600.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://kryten.incognitus.net/mootbot/meetings/ubuntu-meeting.20071218_1600.html
<mathiaz> sommer: I've seen you've filed a bug about apache ssl.
<sommer> yep... I'm not sure how good it is, but I thought I'd take a crack at it
<mathiaz> sommer: there are a couple of other bugs related to this.
<mathiaz> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/apache2/+bug/113099
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 113099 in apache2 "Out of the box SSL config should be made available for Apache." [Wishlist,Triaged]
<mathiaz> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/apache2/+bug/77675
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 77675 in apache2 "apache2-ssl-certificate has gone missing since feisty" [Wishlist,Triaged]
<mathiaz> sommer: did you get in touch with the debian maintainer ?
<sommer> mathiaz: nope, I sort of just started patching :)
<sommer> I can do that though
<mathiaz> sommer: this issue has also been raised there IIRC, if we could agree on a solution for both ubuntu and debian it would be great.
<mathiaz> sommer: the main issue is that debian doesn't have a default way to handle ssl certificates.
<mathiaz> this is why some patches that ubuntu added to enable ssl support OOTB are not accepted by debian
<sommer> mathiaz: gotcha... is there a way to get ssl-cert included into debian
<mathiaz> (eg: dovecot)
<mathiaz> but this depends a lot on the maintainers.
<mathiaz> sommer: it is - but there isn't an official policy that says that ssl-cert should be the default way to handle ssl certs in debian.
<sommer> mathiaz: ah, I see
<mathiaz> debian hasn't settled on the default way to handle ssl certs.
<mathiaz> so maintainers can be reluctant to enable ssl OOTB because of this.
<sommer> is the issue still being debated, or is it not a very high priority?
<mathiaz> sommer: I don't know.
<nealmcb> sommer: does your patch end up giving a self-signed cert by default or something?
<mathiaz> sommer: I'd get in touch first with the apache maintainer to see what they think about your solution.
<sommer> mathiaz: it uses the snakeoil key and cert from ssl-cert package
<mathiaz> sommer: I think that's a good solution - but only for ubuntu.
<sommer> or nealmcb rather
<nealmcb> I haven't looked recently at that - so is it just a cert for the current fqdn of the machine or something?
<sommer> mathiaz: sure I'll contact them
<mathiaz> sommer: so it may be worth discussing with debian maintainers the other configuration options and the way to do it, without forcing them to use ssl-cert.
<nealmcb> or does it ask questions etc?
<sommer> nealmcb: I beleive it's generated from the hostname
<mathiaz> [ACTION] sommer will contact debian apache maintainer wrt default ssl configuration.
<MootBot> ACTION received:  sommer will contact debian apache maintainer wrt default ssl configuration.
<mathiaz> soren, nijaba: what's the state of the JeOS tutorial ?
<nijaba> mathiaz: it is still online
<nijaba> as the artile has not been published yet AFAIK
<sommer> it's also been "translated" into DocBook :)
<mathiaz> sommer: is there any plan to include it in the server guide ?
<mathiaz> sommer: or make a JeOS guide ?
<nealmcb> I'm wondering if the jeos page might be made a more general, short into with link to the article, and the article text might come back as a subpage tutorial when it is old enough
<nijaba> mathiaz: I would not be happy to have a separate JeOs guide
<nijaba> nealmcb: good idea, but it might be redundant with what we have on u.c
<mathiaz> nijaba, sommer: so what's the purpose of using DocBook then ?
<nealmcb> *short intro*
<nijaba> mathiaz: to be able to ubdate it while iti is not published on the wiki anymore
<sommer> mathiaz: I think it was to "save" it into bzr
<sommer> I haven't actually commited it yet though
<mathiaz> hum.. ok.
<sommer> the way it is now is a section in the Server Guide, but that could be changed
<nijaba> sommer: I think it is nice as you did it
<mathiaz> So any action to take regarding JeOS documentation ?
<nealmcb> makes sense to me to have a jeos section there
<nijaba> not AFAIK
<sommer> nijaba: cool, I'll go ahead and commit it
<mathiaz> ACTION: sommer will add the JeOS tutorial as a section to the Server Guide.
<nealmcb> so long as it doesn't quickly go out-of-date, since the server guide is released rarely
<mathiaz> [ACTION] sommer will add the JeOS tutorial as a section to the Server Guide.
<MootBot> ACTION received:  sommer will add the JeOS tutorial as a section to the Server Guide.
<nealmcb> (compared to the wiki)
<sommer> nealmcb: heh... hopefully it will be updated for each release :-)
<mathiaz> Anything else from the last meeting ?
<nealmcb> sommer: sure, but we only get one shot per release....
<sommer> mathiaz: I think that was pretty much it from the last meeting
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Review each section of the ServerTeam/Roadmap.
<MootBot> New Topic:  Review each section of the ServerTeam/Roadmap.
<mathiaz> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Roadmap
<mathiaz> Something to say about Triagging ?
<soren> Nope
<mathiaz> About Packaging ?
<mathiaz> sommer started to work on the ssl configuration for apache.
<mathiaz> sommer: could you update the roadmap about it ?
<sommer> mathiaz: sure
<mathiaz> So Documentation.
<mathiaz> How things are going in there ?
<sommer> Server Guide is cruisin along
<mathiaz> sommer: great !
<nealmcb> back on packaging- anyone talked to ebox folks?  Can we get them to come to our next meeting?
<mathiaz> sommer: you're doing a great job at documentation ! thanks for your contribution !
<sommer> I think most of the large updates have been done, there's probably minor tweeks here and there though
<nijaba> yep, sommer is doing a great job.  I still have a bit to review though since last meeting
<sommer> mathiaz: welcome
<nealmcb> we so constantly get queries about webmin etc - seems like a priority for hardy, and not an easy one
<sommer> plus there may be a couple of others helping out in the near future :)
<nealmcb> sommer: yeah - great work!
<mathiaz> sommer: yes - I've seen a couple messages on ubuntu-doc.
<sommer> nealmcb: thanks, and I agree about ebox
<mathiaz> nealmcb: what about factoids ?
<nealmcb> I think an ebox factoid is top prio :-)
<nealmcb> I'll add it
<mathiaz> nealmcb: did you add a couple of them to the bot ?
<nealmcb> yes - last month as noted there ljl and I added a bunch - he was great
<mathiaz> nealmcb: ok. So they should be removed from the roadmap.
<nealmcb> well, I proposed and he made them better and added them :-)
<nealmcb> yes - should be removed
<nealmcb> I'll do that too
<mathiaz> [ACTION] nealmcb will update the list of factoids on the Roadmap.
<MootBot> ACTION received:  nealmcb will update the list of factoids on the Roadmap.
<mathiaz> Anything else related to Documentation ?
<nealmcb> soren: would you like to invite an ebox person to come to the next meeting and give us an update?  or provide a name of who to invite?
<soren> nealmcb: I can do that.
<sommer> I think that's pretty much it... still need to make some time for the Samba wiki page updates
<nealmcb> :-)
<mathiaz> Let's move on the Developer section
<mathiaz> It's not up to date.
<mathiaz> I'll update the section with the plans for Hardy.
<mathiaz> [ACTION] mathiaz will update the developer section.
<MootBot> ACTION received:  mathiaz will update the developer section.
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Agree on next meeting date and time
<MootBot> New Topic:  Agree on next meeting date and time
<nealmcb> [idea] soren will invite an ebox person to come to the next meeting and give us an update
<MootBot> IDEA received:  soren will invite an ebox person to come to the next meeting and give us an update
<mathiaz> dendrobates asked if the meeting could be moved as he is not able to attend.
<mathiaz> one proposal is to move it wednesday at 17:00 UTC
<mathiaz> which is one hour later than currently.
<mathiaz> another proposal is to move it to Thursday at 16:00 UTC
<nealmcb> wed am is ok, but I have a 1600 meeting too
<mathiaz> the ubuntu-dev meeting is scheduled for this time every fours week though
<nealmcb> thu is worse
<sommer> either work for me ;)
<jdstrand> either are good for me
<mathiaz> another question is if we should have weekly meeting
<mathiaz> I think we already talked about that in december
<mathiaz> but don't remember the outcome of the discussion
<sommer> didn't we have a meeting once a week in dec?
<nealmcb> I think it was "yes, weekly"
<mathiaz> ok.
<sommer> not sure if it was "official", but it worked out okay
<nealmcb> and it will work better with mathiaz back in town :-)
<mathiaz> another proposal is monday at 16:00 UTC
 * sommer likes 16:00 UTC the best, but either work
<mathiaz> yeah 16:00 UTC is the best time for both europeans and americans..
<nealmcb> mon 1600 works for me
<mathiaz> which means that it's very very busy for most of us..
<jdstrand> mathiaz: could have multiple meeting rooms...
<mathiaz> jdstrand: yeah - but people need to attend the meetings...
<nealmcb> jdstrand: and practice thrashing? :-)
<jdstrand> :)
<nijaba> Mon 16 UTC is conflicting with a appt that dendrobates and I have have with a partner each week...
<mathiaz> soren: mon 16:00 UTC ?
<mathiaz> nijaba: argh..
<mathiaz> so we're running out of time.
<mathiaz> I'll try to come up with something sane for next meeting.
<mathiaz> for now we don't move it.
<mathiaz> [ACTION] mathiaz will try to figure a new time for the server team meeting.
<MootBot> ACTION received:  mathiaz will try to figure a new time for the server team meeting.
<nealmcb> but it would be nice to have dendrobates here....
<mathiaz> For now - next week, same place, same time.
<mathiaz> nealmcb: I'll discuss this with him.
<nealmcb> :-)
<mathiaz> nealmcb: and send an email if there is any change before next meeting.
<mathiaz> Thanks all for coming.
<nijaba> thanks for leading the meeting mathiaz
<mathiaz> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 16:58.
<sommer> thanks mathiaz, party on all
<nijaba> bye
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-01-09
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 09 Jan 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting | 10 Jan 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development | 10 Jan 16:00 UTC: Community Council | 16 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting | 17 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting | 17 Jan 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development
<RichEd> hi ... who is here for the edubuntu meeting ?
<juliux> happy new year RichEd
 * ogra waves
<RichEd> and the same to you juliux :)
<RichEd> so it looks like just us 3 then ... we'll do a short & sweet reporback then
<RichEd> ogra: technical ?
<ogra> well, te main issue was to move LTSP to the ubuntu alternate CD
<ogra> which happened yesterday (after some preparation)
<ogra> using ltsp-client-builder/run=true  as a bootoption should currently (aplha3) build a ltsp server from CD
<ogra> (untested yet, my iso rsync is at 97%)
<ogra> beyond that i'm working hard on the classmate autobuilder setup atm ...
<ogra> not much other edubuntu specific stuff atm
<ogra> with alpha4 we should be able tp drop the edubuntu-server CD
<ogra> *to
<ogra> ah, my rsync is done ....
 * ogra starts a virtualbox install aside ...
<ogra> well, that it about tech for me ...
<ogra> laserjock managed to get the menu stuff working he said
<ogra> (we didnt have any further discussion about that yet)
 * RichEd collects his tea ... back in 30 secs
<RichEd> back
<RichEd> ogra ... is that all from you ?
<ogra> yup
<ogra> at least i dont remember anything atm
<RichEd> okay ... not much from my side either ... just got back to my desk from leave yesterday
<RichEd> catching up on email backlog atm
<ogra> i had 3000 waiting for me ...
<ogra> not bad for nearly two weeks not touching the PC
<ogra> (i had worse times already :) )
<RichEd> doing some work on the educonlinux project ... the EU education collaboration that is driving the edubuntu content server
<RichEd> not to much to show at the moment, but I'll share the project web site when the content partner has populated it
<RichEd> ---
<RichEd> looks like a slow start to the year for community matters ...
<RichEd> i'll send a meeting reminder and agenda to the mail lists, to see if we can get more people next week
<ogra> one thing to piont out for ltsp intrested people that might listen is that ltsp switched to use the -generic kernel flavour instead of -386
<RichEd> anyone else (juliux) have any news / issues / ideas or suggestions ?
<ogra> (it prove to work on all test clients i have here and the switch saves 20M on the CD)
<juliux> RichEd, what about and edubuntu flyer for 2008 ?
<juliux> or ubuntu-education fyler
<RichEd> juliux: indeed :) that's under way already
<juliux> RichEd, can you send me the english one? i will create a german version
<RichEd> I have been tasked with preparing promo material for various target audiences
<RichEd> * high level decision makers (like edu departments and governments)
<RichEd> * OEM (original equipment manufacturers) we are encouraging to bundle *buntu
<RichEd> * school administrators
<RichEd> * teachers
<RichEd> I will prepare basic text and images ...
<RichEd> Then the marketing department will tailor this into:
<juliux> i have still a very old version;)
<RichEd> * an education solution area on the ubuntu.com web site
<RichEd> * simple electronic flyers
<RichEd> * A4 formatted PDFs for central print (canonical) and local print (for loco's and expos etc)
<RichEd> The deadline is the end of january, so juliux, remind me again to send you copies
<juliux> RichEd, thxs
<RichEd> Here is an interesting article:
<RichEd> Open Source Survey Suggests 2008 Will Be A Tipping Point
<RichEd> http://www.crn.com/it-channel/205600013
<RichEd> f.y.i. a tipping point is when something reaches critical mass ... and goes exponential / mainstream
<RichEd> ---
<RichEd> That's about all from me
 * RichEd opens the conversation to the floor ... anyone else ?
<juliux> i wish i had more time...
<RichEd> (note that schools in the Southern Hemisphere are still on vacation ... so many people are away from their computers)
<RichEd> ogra ? anything else for now ?
<RichEd> if not we can wrap for today then.
<ogra> right
<ogra> nothings else
<RichEd> going Once
<RichEd> going Twice
 * RichEd looks around ....
<RichEd> and done for today ... please make sure you remind people about the meeting for next week
<RichEd> Late one
 * RichEd thanks ogra and juliux 
<ogra> thanks
<highvoltage> eek
<nixternal> @schedule
<ubotu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 09 Jan 20:00: Edubuntu meeting | 10 Jan 14:00: Desktop Team Development | 10 Jan 16:00: Community Council | 16 Jan 12:00: Edubuntu meeting | 17 Jan 12:00: Edubuntu meeting | 17 Jan 14:00: Desktop Team Development
<heno> hello everyone
<pedro_> hello heno!
<heno> bdmurray, ogasawara, liw, stgraber - ping
<heno> hey pedro_
<ogasawara> heno: hi:)
<bdmurray> heno: here I am
<heno> ogasawara: hey how is bug day going?
<ogasawara> heno: good, we were just over chatting in ubuntu-bugs
<heno> the page looks good
<heno> yep, I'll try not to keep you long
<heno> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 19:00. The chair is heno.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<heno> [TOPIC] Things happening today: Kernel bug day and alpha 3 testing
<MootBot> New Topic:  Things happening today: Kernel bug day and alpha 3 testing
<heno> just FYI really, no need for discussion
<heno> unless someone has comments
<bdmurray> Should I be testing the daily builds now?  If not when?
<bdmurray> I can see holding Hug Days and testing daily builds at the same time as being challenging.
<davmor2> lo
<stgraber> pong
<heno> bdmurray: yes, this will happen regularly
<stgraber> sorry, at lug meeting
<heno> we've had then on mondays sometimes close to releases
<davmor2> bdmurray: got my vote testing is hectic enough normally
<heno> should we consider that as a regular day?
<davmor2> sorry heno for which?
<heno> bug days on mondays
<davmor2> right
<heno> we can't really move testing
<heno> as it's tied to thursday releases
<davmor2> true :)
<bdmurray> I think bug days on Mondays is problematic with holidays, timezones and weekends
<pedro_> I'd like to propose Tuesday instead
<pedro_> Monday is for me at least the busiest day of the week where you have to catch up tons of emails from the weekend
<davmor2> Tuesdays sounds good as the majority of testing seems to happen on wednesday's
<bdmurray> heno: did the distro team meeting used to be on Tuesdays?
<heno> with bug day on tuesday the lists could be prepared monday evening
 * heno can't remember
<davmor2> sounding like a plan then :)#
<heno> so I'm not sure why it's wednesdays
<heno> it also clashes with this meeting :)
<heno> each week
<liw> so Tuesday sounds best?
<heno> sounds good, bdmurray?
<davmor2> probably because it keeps getting postponed until Wednesday :)
<davmor2> testing that is :)
<bdmurray> heno: that works for me but I'd like to check with the rest of the bugsquad and the marketing team
<heno> bdmurray: yep, will you email the lists?
<davmor2> makes sense no point if no-one else can do it :)
<bdmurray> I think the first possible Tuesday would be the 29th then
<bdmurray> heno: yes
<heno> that's fine
<heno> are we skipping it the week of the sprint?
<bdmurray> That was my assumption but it was an assumption . . .
<heno> [AGREED] We may move bug days to tuesdays to reduce conflicts
<MootBot> AGREED received:  We may move bug days to tuesdays to reduce conflicts
<heno> bdmurray: we probably should skip it. we'll be quite busy
<heno> [TOPIC] Following up on the target bug list with other teams
<MootBot> New Topic:  Following up on the target bug list with other teams
<bdmurray> I'd be happy to help with the lists before leaving if someone wants to take that on
<heno> I intended to attend the platform meeting today but missed it in the end :-/
<heno> bdmurray: perhaps that should go to the bugsquad list as well
<heno> we have several active triagers who are not here now
<heno> desktop team meeting is tomorrow at 14.00 UTC, but I have a phone meeting then
<heno> pedro_: are you on line by then, could you attend?
<pedro_> let me check
<heno> you might want to start attending desktop meetings anyway
<heno> in the same way ogasawara attends kernel meetings
<pedro_> heno: yep, ok i'll attend to it
<heno> of course the gnome packagers are not on the desktop team, but on platform ...
<heno> pedro_: thanks
<heno> I'll propose the bug list as an agenda item there
<heno> [TOPIC] Desktop testing status and a quick 'getting started with dogtail' intro
<MootBot> New Topic:  Desktop testing status and a quick 'getting started with dogtail' intro
<heno> liw has written up https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Automation/DogtailTutorial
<heno> so everyone can play along at home
<heno> with automated desktop testing
<bdmurray> Has anyone tested it on Hardy?
<liw> the instructions on that page work on gutsy, at least for me; I haven't dared to try hardy yet, and all my attempts at trying them in hardy-inside-qemu result in a broken filesystem on the qemu image; however, I expect they'll work on hardy, too
<heno> it failed for me on hardy
<heno> in vbox
<heno> haven't tried on real hardware
<davmor2> I'll let you know latter I'm just rsyncing my bunch of images :)
<liw> nothing in dogtail should be affected by real hardware vs emulation, but then again, that applies to most thigns...
<heno> davmor2: that's great, thanks
<davmor2> well it's what test machine were designed for :)
<liw> anyway, a more general update: that sample script on the page is how far I've gotten; it's surprisingly much effort to get a dogtail script written, and the recorders in accerciser and dogtail are basically of no use at all, so it's all manual work, and trial-and-error, too
<liw> writing the scripts is, in fact, so much effort that I'm not sure it's worth continuing on that path -- it'll take person-weeks of effort to get anything useful for hardy, and then it'll all probably break when the apps change for hardy+1, so they'll have to be updated/rewritten
<heno> liw: I promised I would hook you up with the accerciser dev; this seems like a good time for that
<liw> I found out today about a new tool called Strongwind (or found out about it again -- someone told me about it during UDS, I think), I'll have a quick look at that tomorrow
<liw> strongwind's not packaged for debian or ubuntu, but that should not be a problem
<bdmurray> I know who that someone is
<bdmurray> What happens with the recorders?
<liw> bdmurray, the recorders don't record anything except key presses, when typing into text areas, which are the least interesting part of the script
<heno> I could swear we had accerciser recording native scripts in oslo
<liw> it may be that I'm just stupid and can't figure out how to use the recorders, of course; if so, help is appreciated
<liw> heno, I get the same results now as then, I think, but the results are not useful :(
<heno> I failed at it too ladt week, FWIW
<heno> ok
<liw> that is, the recorder records that I type "hello, world", but fails to record into which widget I do that; it does record the app, though
<heno> so, yeah if anyone wants to play with this and add eyeballs that'd be great
<heno> liw: did you try macaroon?
<heno> it likely has near-identical syntax
<heno> (why he doesn't just always use dogtail scripts i don't know)
<liw> heno, no, I should try that, too
<heno> ok, I think we're done. liw we can talk more about this after the meeting
<liw> I forget why I rejected it as an option last year, but given that dogtail isn't looking promising right now, I should look again at all the options
<liw> heno, ack
<heno> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 19:34.
<liw> that was a fairly fast meeting -- good :)
<heno> happy bug triage and CD testing!
<davmor2> ttyl
<pedro_> thanks
<heno> bdmurray: to answer your question - you are better off focusing on the bug day today I think
<bdmurray> heno: roger, I'll see what I can manage with testing
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Edubuntu meeting Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 10 Jan 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development | 10 Jan 16:00 UTC: Community Council | 16 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting | 17 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting | 17 Jan 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 10 Jan 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development | 10 Jan 16:00 UTC: Community Council | 16 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting | 17 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting | 17 Jan 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development | 18 Jan 12:00 UTC: MOTU
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-01-10
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 10 Jan 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development | 10 Jan 16:00 UTC: Community Council | 10 Jan 18:00 UTC: Art Team | 16 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting | 17 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting | 17 Jan 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 10 Jan 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development | 10 Jan 16:00 UTC: Community Council | 10 Jan 18:00 UTC: Art Team | 16 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting | 17 Jan 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development | 18 Jan 12:00 UTC: MOTU
 * pitti waves hello
 * mvo looks around
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Desktop Team Development Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 10 Jan 16:00 UTC: Community Council | 10 Jan 18:00 UTC: Art Team | 16 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting | 17 Jan 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development | 18 Jan 12:00 UTC: MOTU
<effie_jayx> !now
<ubotu> Sorry, I don't know anything about now - try searching on http://ubotu.ubuntu-nl.org/factoids.cgi
<effie_jayx> @now
<ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: January 10 2008, 13:56:32 - Current meeting: Desktop Team Development
<Keybuk> everybody here?
<kwwii> hi all
 * mvo waves
<Riddell> hi
 * Keybuk sends an SMS to Ted
<pedro_> hello
<Keybuk> welcome back everyone, I hope you all had good holidays?
<seb128> hey
<mvo> yes!
<pitti> fabulous
<seb128> what?
<seb128> ah, good holidays?
<seb128> yes ;-)
<Keybuk> I haven't had time to put together a wiki page today, have been catching up with things this morning
<MacSlow> seb128, still? :)
<Keybuk> but I didn't see any agenda items in the activity reports?
<seb128> I've some agenda
<awalton__> seb128: should we continue the nautilus-gio discussion here?
<Keybuk> seb128: ok, go for it
<seb128> awalton__: no, that has already been discussed at UDS and we will not know before having testing 2.21 and got feedback
<awalton__> ah alright.
<seb128> Keybuk: 1- we have quite some compiz integration issues, is somebody in your team supposed to work on those?
<seb128> mvo or MacSlow?
<Keybuk> yes, both mvo and MacSlow are available to work on those
<ogra> i guess ted will find a good bunch of GL screensaver issues with compiz if he looks deep enough
<seb128> ok, I'll try to get MacSlow to work on those then, he said he would some months ago but nothing happened since
<seb128> I guess everybody is busy
<seb128> other thing
<seb128> brasero and transmission-gtk have been suggested for default installation by some users on the lists
<MacSlow> seb128, I've been working on other specs
<seb128> I would like to have the opinion on the team on those
<Keybuk> seb128: if you have a list of the issues, feel free to send it to me so I can keep track of them and make sure they're not dropped or forgotten
<Keybuk> seb128: Brasero looked nice, I asked Wouter for a comparison on the /DesktopTeam/Experiences/PlayingCDs page
<seb128> MacSlow: right, that's why I'm asking if somebody is still supposed to work on those, or if you guys are busy with other things
<mvo> I worked on compiz for alpha3, but the especially the workspace integration stuff needs more work
<Keybuk> we don't have a bit torrent experience ;)  but we could have one
<seb128> should we also move seahorse on the default installation?
<ogra> we currently have three burning solutions in the default install
<Keybuk> seb128: it got GNOME module acceptance, no?
<MacSlow> seb128, considering the the problems I encounter, work takes longer than anticipated
<mpt> Sorry I'm late
<ogra> (rb, sound juicer and n-c-b)
<seb128> Keybuk: it's part of GNOME since 2.20 I think but we didn't move it for gutsy
<pitti> seahorse> quite developer centric and thus I don't think it's utterly important to have it, but it's nice
<seb128> ogra: and serpentine
<Keybuk> ah, sorry, it was gnome-keyring-manager that's been removed for 2.22
<ogra> seb128, ah, right ... soo many
<seb128> right, it's deprecated by seahorse
<MacSlow> seb128, what integration-issue in particular are there? Except for perhaps wnck-related ones?
<seb128> MacSlow: mainly the wnck related one, but we get way to many bugs because of those
<Keybuk> pitti: seahorse does help with general gpg agent issues
<pitti> CD burning> isn't there an official gnome approach to this?
<ogra> pitti, m-c-b and rb
<seb128> pitti: they have nautilus-cd-burner and seems happy with it so far
<ogra> *n-c-b
<pitti> RB recently learned to burn CDs, nautilus does it for ages
<pitti> I'm just afraid that we keep accumulating function duplication
<seb128> pitti: but it lacks things like multisession support, directCD, videoCD, etc
<Keybuk> my concern with Brasero is that it needs to be able to replace all of those things
<pitti> seb128: but that's pretty special IMHO
<MacSlow> seb128, metycity-"legacy" bites us and everybody else there...
<seb128> pitti: cf the brasero mail on ubuntu-devel-discuss
<Keybuk> so if you want to burn a CD from rb, it uses Brasero rather than doing it itself
<ogra> Keybuk, no ...
<pitti> Keybuk: and it must not be too complex
<ogra> Keybuk, but it needs to blend in with them
<pitti> seriously, how often do you guys use multisession CDs?
<pitti> and, more importantly, average users?
 * ogra didnt use any other CD burning app than n-c-b since breezy or so
<MacSlow> seb128, the only clean solution would be to extend the ewmh-spec
<seb128> well, looks like there is quite some users looking for burning application like nero under windows
<Keybuk> pitti: I wasn't concerned with that
 * pitti always found the ease and elegance of our CD burners appealing and a plus
<Keybuk> it was more just that Brasero is a bit more like what users tend to look for
<pitti> much unlike the complexity of suites like nero
<Keybuk> our CD burners are damned hard to find
<seb128> MacSlow: right, I understood you would work on this but you seem to be busy with other thing now so I was wondering if somebody else was going to pick the task
<seb128> well, n-c-b is nice to burn iso directly from nautilus
<seb128> and to backup quickly some files
<pitti> Keybuk: right, we could change that, but that equally applies to brasero
<seb128> but that's about it
<Keybuk> we should evaluate them in terms of the experience
<MacSlow> seb128, as this is most unpleasent work I don't think anybody addressed the issue
<pitti> we need to identify places where to start the CD burner anyway
<ogra> in any case serpentine can go :)
<Keybuk> ie. what do we gain and what do we lose?
<MacSlow> seb128, I can try burning weekends on this
<seb128> well, n-c-b is rather basic burning integration to nautilus
<seb128> like burn an iso on a CD
<seb128> and copy some files
<seb128> where brasero is an application
<seb128> I don't think adding brasero to the install and the menu would be real duplication
<pitti> IMHO we should design this task-based, not app-centric
<seb128> it's mostly having a CD burning software in addition of the basic nautilus integration
<Keybuk> agree
<pitti> I don't want to open a CD management suite, I want to burn a data, or a music, or a video CD, or do backup
<MacSlow> seb128, but I don't know how much influence I'm able to produce in order to make the neede ewmh-spec changes... I'll probably have to convince people like owen, havoc, vuntz & co
<mpt> Maybe ideally we'd have the features of Brasero in the UI of Nautilus+Rhythmbox
<seb128> not going to happen though
<mpt> yeah
<seb128> n-c-b upstream want to keep it simple
<pitti> brasero itself looks quite nice though
<seb128> and will no add option for onfly burning, multisession, etc there
<pitti> seb128: I consider that a feature
<MacSlow> yeah... brasero is pretty good
<ogra> and users appear to actually *want* a separate app
<mpt> Multisession doesn't need to be an "option". Just drag more stuff onto the CD.
<seb128> pitti: and it's already in main ;-)
<pitti> so, putting brasero in teh menus for complex tasks, and the simple nautilus integration for easy tasks might be a way to go
<seb128> mpt: n-c-b doesn't want to do it
<MacSlow> I always install brasero on every ubuntu-machine I set up
<mvo> I guess a lot of people from the windows world kind of expect a seperate app (not sure if that is a good argument though)
<seb128> pitti: right, that's what I was suggesting
<pitti> if we can ditch serpentine in favor of brasero
<seb128> yes we can
<MacSlow> never used serpentine
<pitti> then we wouldn't increase the number of apps (and confusion)
<ogra> pitti, we should have ditched serpentine long ago :)
<pitti> brasero is ten times as big, hm
<ogra> rb does audio Cd since pre gutsy iirc
<pitti> 720 KB
<Keybuk> ogra: *if* you can find it
<ogra> Keybuk, right
<ogra> :)
<Keybuk> and it doesn't do audio CDs for portable music players, which is where most people keep their music
<ogra> i didnt until seb told me :)
<Keybuk> in fact, rhythmbox really sucks for portable music players
<Keybuk> Jono was telling me about this thing called Banshee
<Keybuk> ;)  *watches seb explode*
<ogra> i only use it to copy stuff on it ...
<MacSlow> Keybuk, :)
 * seb128 slaps Keybuk
<seb128> today is not the day for this discussion :-p
<ogra> heh
<tyche> I'm an outsider, here for a different meeting, but I'd like to make a suggestion.  It really doesn't matter what CD burner is integrated into Nautilus IF the user could switch out the default setting for whatever he wants.
<Keybuk> brasero seems generally better than serpentine, I can't disagree there
<pitti> people can install whichever burning app they want of course
<pitti> but the default is what matters
<seb128> well, serpentine does only music CD recording
<awalton__> does brasero do dvd burning?
<MacSlow> from personal experience brasero is a very nice app for burning-tasks
<awalton__> if so, I'm sold.
<MacSlow> awalton__, data or movies?
<ogra> what about its deps ?
<tyche> Yes, default matters.  But I know that I get perturbed by putting in a blank CD hand having Nautilus come up, and not being able to kill that function.  I use a different burner.
<ogra> i think it doesnt use cdrecord/wodim
<awalton__> MacSlow, both/either/or
<seb128> ogra: it does use nautilus-cd-burner apparently
<pitti> tyche: that's a setting in the volume properties (gnome-volume-manager)
<Hobbsee> bah.  just use k3b.  *ducks*
<MacSlow> ogra, normal gnome-ish dependencies... sorry... don't know details
<pitti> it currently defaults to serpentine for audio and ncb for data
<tyche> I second the motion, Hobbsee
<ogra> seb128, oh, thats news to me, it was developed by the libburn maintainer initially
<MacSlow> Hobbsee, on kubuntu ok... but only there :)
<pitti> but IMHO ncb for data is a good default, since it looks just like a file manager
<Hobbsee> MacSlow: on ubuntu too.  i'll make the seed changes...how's that?
<Hobbsee> :)
<Keybuk> Hobbsee: is there a GTK+ 2 version of k3b ?
<MacSlow> Hobbsee, I'd call that cheating :)
<seb128> Hobbsee: we will track you and make you change it back, how's that? ;-)
<Hobbsee> seb128: awwww
<Hobbsee> Keybuk: i've no idea.
<pitti> so, let's get back to topic and finish that
<Hobbsee> seb128: you wouldn't dare :)
 * Keybuk visits https://edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-dev/+member/hobbsee to make some changes ;)
<Keybuk> *ahem*
<Keybuk> yes, the topic
<seb128> the question is to know what user expect
<Keybuk> did we reach a consensus to replace serpentine with brasero?
<MacSlow> offtopic... does anyobdy know if ogg/vorbis files can store a image/cover in the file itself?
<seb128> looks like some of them expect having a separate app with advanced options
<ogra> well, if it uses it as backend you cant
<seb128> +1 for adding brasero instead of serpentine
<Keybuk> seb128: we won't know that for sure without user testing; which we are going to be doing lots of, but not in a short time frame
<awalton__> well in my household it's nero on every machine but the mac (toast there), so a nero-like interface is probably expected these days.
 * Hobbsee beats Keybuk up.  gotta stay in practice.
<Keybuk> my own personal user testing experience says that brasero is more what users look for
<pitti> 1. keep ncb as default app in g-v-m; 2. replace serpentine with braseo; 3. switch to brasero as default music burner
<pitti> ^ sth like that?
<seb128> pitti: yes
<Keybuk> the great thing is we can always changes our minds later anyway ;)
<MacSlow> pitti, sounds like  a plan
<seb128> n-c-b as default for simple task
<seb128> brasero in the menu and for audio CD burning
<MacSlow> seb128, yes
<pitti> I really like the file-manager like operation of ncb; not sure about others
<ogra> ++
<seb128> pitti: I do but I understand that some people want to do other things
<mvo> ncb++ (good for its designed task)
<seb128> pitti: burning video CD was one of the things listed on the mailing list thread
<pitti> seb128: I appreciate that
<pitti> seb128: but I don't think it's better to switch to brasero for simple data CDs, do you?
<seb128> no, as said
<ogra> given that we had the same discussion back in hoary with gnomebaker i think it finally makes sense
<pitti> ok
<seb128> <seb128> n-c-b as default for simple task
<seb128>  brasero in the menu and for audio CD burning
<ogra> the demand was ther before :)
<pitti> sounds like we agree :) Keybuk, happy with that?
<Keybuk> I'm happy :-)
<MacSlow> pitti, if you know that your file-manager offers that... e.g. my sister (non-geek) handles burning better with brasero... since it's a dedicated app for the task at hand
<seb128> good
<seb128> next one was seahorse
<seb128> anybody object to it?
<pitti> MacSlow: just slip in an empty CD and you'll get asked
<MacSlow> pitti, she regards nautilus just as a "data-viewer"
<pitti> MacSlow: no need to know it
<Keybuk> I use it - it improves evo's gpg handling slightly
<mvo> seb128: what is the advantage for a non-geek of seahorse?
<pitti> -- seahorse (quite strongly)
<seb128> mvo: allow you to change your keyring or gpg passwords
<Keybuk> pitti: why -- ?
<pitti> it adds 4.5 MB to the CD (possibly more through dependencies)
<pitti> and it's not something average users will need
<seb128> mvo: to encrypt or decrypt files from nautilus
<MacSlow> pitti, what it's that big?
<seb128> and it's part of the official GNOME desktop
<pitti> Size: 4592954
<mvo> why is it so big?
<Keybuk> you need seahorse, or something like it, to change network manager passphrases
<pitti> plus dependencies, as I said
<mvo> seb128: hm, strong encryption is certainly a plus
<Keybuk> it's big because it has lots of icons in it
<pitti> Keybuk: eww, can't you do that in n-m?
<Keybuk> pitti: no
<pitti> Keybuk: sounds like a bug
<Keybuk> and lots of translated help
<Keybuk> pitti: not at all - nm uses gnome keyring to store passphrases
<Keybuk> so the way to modify them is through a gnome keyring editor
<pitti> Keybuk: well, but nobody will look there, I'd think?
<awalton__> the huge icons part sounds like a bug to me.
<seb128> which has been deprecated upstream in favor of seahorse now
<Keybuk> NM should arguably link to it, but it shouldn't reimplement seahorse ;)
<pitti> after all, you use n-m to input the initial passphrase
<pitti> so you should be able to alter it there, too
<Keybuk> yeah
<Keybuk> the package looks like it needs tidying up
<Keybuk> help moved out to a -doc or something
<Keybuk> translations split out
<Keybuk> icons split out
<Keybuk> that'd make a big improvement
<seb128> translations will be stripped if it's in main
<seb128> language packs etc
<mvo> /usr/lib/seahorse/xloadimage ?!?
<pitti> Keybuk: hm, no help available by default?
<seb128> http://paste.ubuntu.com/3438/
<seb128> that's what upstream listed as description when proposing it for GNOME desktop
<Keybuk> hmm
<Keybuk> seahorse's binaries are interestingy large
<Keybuk> they're all 350KB or so
<MacSlow> strip
<Keybuk> which implies there's a library being statically linked there?
<seb128> MacSlow: they are stripped already
<MacSlow> oh
<pitti> hm, with some cdbs hacking we should be able to symlink the identical (non-)translated help images
<pitti> that would benefit other packages, too
<seb128> MacSlow: all the debian packages are stripped at build (if the packaging doesn't say otherwise which is not the case for this one)
<Keybuk> seb128: seahorse: I think pitti's concerns about the package size should be solved first
<Keybuk> it is interestingly large
<seb128> right
<seb128> I agree with that
<pitti> Keybuk: help is currently 2.7 MB, which we can probably get down quite much with some gnome help 'symlink identical files' cdbs hack
<pitti> seb128: ^ WDYT?
<pitti> (I thought we already had that, though; apparently not)
<Keybuk> the fact the binaries are all the same size makes me think it needs a shared library in there
<Keybuk> otherwise we need something like it
<Keybuk> either we put seahorse in, or keep gnome-keyring-manager
<seb128> right
<seb128> still want to discuss new modules GNOME just decided for GNOME 2.22
<seb128> cheese add been added to the desktop
<MacSlow> that's good news
 * pitti points out that cheese is in main now, by request from mobile
<Keybuk> transmission - it looks more like the kind of bittorrent client that users expect
<Keybuk> but I haven't played strongly
<Keybuk> cheese - dep of face browser? :)
<seb128> Keybuk: right, I think we should switch, fedora is already shipping it apparently and it seems to be nice
<seb128> In:
<seb128>   anjuta (devtools suite)
<seb128>   cheese (desktop suite)
<seb128>   gvfs (desktop suite)
<seb128>   mousetweaks (desktop suite)
<seb128>   swfdec-gnome (desktop suite)
 * pitti kicks cheese on amd64 and hopes that it'll build
<seb128>   vinagre (desktop suite)
<seb128>   ndesk-dbus, ndesk-dbus-glib (external dependency)
<Keybuk> it won an immediate point for me because it's not banned from mininova and our bittorrent client is ;)
<seb128>  
<seb128> ;-)
<seb128> ok
<mvo> heh :)
<seb128> anybody against transmission-gtk for bittorent?
<ogra> fedora ships anjuta by default ?
<seb128> if no let's switch
<awalton__> go for it
<seb128> ogra: no, that's GNOME 2.22
<ogra> ugh
<seb128> ogra: it's in devtools
<seb128> that's alright
<pitti> erm, not development GUIs by default, please
<seb128> no, that's just what GNOME accepted for 2.22
<ogra> right ... dev.... doesnt really imply that it should be there by default
<seb128> I think vinagre as vnc client would make sense too
<Keybuk> vinagre - definitely
<seb128> anybody objects?
<awalton__> well, especially since you're shipping vino.
<Keybuk> (or remove vino, since one doesn't make sense without the other)
<ogra> dont remove vino please
<ogra> its massivley used in edubuntu
<seb128> Keybuk: not true, we could keep using xvncviewer ;-)
<ogra> heh
<awalton__> ...vinagre it is.
<seb128> ogra: nobody suggested that I think ;-)
<Keybuk> seb128: which is almost impossible to use since you can hardly focus the password dialog
<tedg> I think we shouldn't include gvfs.... no flies for anyone ;)
<ogra> seb128, Keybuk in his evil brackets :)
 * Keybuk had to come up with an alt-tab, click, alt-tab, click click click type dance at UDS
<tedg> s/flies/files/
<Keybuk> gvfs?
<Keybuk> isn't that a dependency rather than a top-level thing?
<Keybuk> ... remove nautilus ... tempting
<seb128> that's a new module
<seb128> so they list if for the form
<seb128> but right, no gvfs, no nautilus ;-)
<seb128> ok, so we agree on
<Keybuk> your argument is compelling
<awalton__> well, you could still browse local files..
<seb128> - brasero, transmission-gtk, vinagre added
<ogra> that would help me a lot on the classmate as well :)
<seb128> - review seahorse space issue
<awalton__> just no network shares, no fuse, no hal..
<Keybuk> what's mousetweaks?
<mpt> It's accessibility extras for mouse movement
<pitti> seb128: if you can look into the binary size (build a shared lib instead of linking the static ones)? I'll look into gnome help symlinking; that should help with more space problems, too
<mpt> There's ongoing discussions about merging it into the Mouse Preferences
<seb128> pitti: will do
<Keybuk> since we're mucking around in the seeds ... add f-spot, remove gthumb?
<seb128> pitti: I just built seahorse, it's alright doing symlink magic
<mvo> Keybuk++ from me
<seb128> Keybuk: f-spot is there for ages
<Keybuk> seb128: it wasn't in desktop was it?
<pitti> seb128: right, I faintly remember adding that; so it just wasn't built for a while?
<seb128> remove gthumb yes, but pitti will not like it ;-)
<MacSlow> I'm all for going beyond mousetweaks and add libcwiid and sugguest wii-remotes to users... with a little IR-led array one can get "multitouch"-input
<pitti> seb128: nevermind me, (1) it's just an apt-get away, and (2) if we ship f-spot by default, I better make sure it works well :)
<Keybuk> seb128: it won't get removed from his machine if he just upgrades ;)
<pitti> (dogfood and such)
<Keybuk> damn, seeds were checked out on my lapto
<Keybuk> and the nice man from Dell still has that
<soren> Oh, if only there was a way to make a *new* checkout..
<soren> Oh, wait.
<ogra> Keybuk, what migration from gthumb to f-spot ?
<soren> :p
<ogra> many people will have existing galleries
<seb128> Keybuk: ubuntu.edgy/desktop: * f-spot [i386 powerpc amd64 ia64 sparc]  # Andrew Mitchell, approved by mdz
<mvo> ogra: we will not force-remove it
<ogra> seb128, its tere but was never integrated anywhere
<seb128> ogra: as said we don't remove gthumb on upgrade
<mvo> one of the biggest missing bits in f-spot is IMHO video playback support (or at least displaying the camera videos)
<ogra> we still default to gthumb for everything
<ogra> that sounds messy
<pitti> yes, we'll need to move the gnome-volume-maanger default to f-spot
 * pitti just hopes f-spot doesn't wreak such havoc any more with photo import
<seb128> pitti: easy enough to revert if fspot doesn't work correctly
<pitti> seb128: right, but I agree to switch over now to dogfood and test it
<seb128> but we should try to fix f-spot if it's broken
<seb128> we ship it for long enough now
<pitti> 'zactly
<Keybuk> mvo: gthumb didn't import those either when I tried it
<Keybuk> I had to copy them manually
<pitti> Keybuk: hm, WFM
<seb128> WFM too
<mvo> Keybuk: that worked for me, both importing and dipslaying (also I think it just spawned totem)
<pitti> I have never used anything else in the past years, and I use videos on my cmaera
<ogra> depends on the codec your cam uses
<ogra> i have one where it works and one where it doesnt
<mvo> the user experience with f-spot for videos is really bad, it downloads it from the camera into its Pictures folder and then its gone :)
<Keybuk> there's an upstream patch for that
<Keybuk> actually makes them work
<mvo> I mean, the videos are gone, you have to search for them
<pitti> .avi, MPEG video, PCM audio here
<mvo> I think I saw this patch
<Keybuk> http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=166038
<Keybuk> attached to that
<ubotu> Gnome bug 166038 in Browsing "Support for audio and video media from digital cameras" [Enhancement,New]
<ogra> pitti, i think the one that doesnt work uses mp4 or so
<Keybuk> I haven't tried with my new camera, I must admit
<seb128> pitti: "/bin/sh: fdupes: not found" from the seahorse build log BTW
<Keybuk> with my camcorder, gthumb only ever touched the photos on it, but that could be because of the fact it's a video camera so stores the videos differently
<pitti> seb128: erk, missing cdbs b-dep, I guess
<pitti> seb128: will fix in a minute
<Keybuk> seb128: anything else on the list?
<seb128> pitti: no, rather missing cdbs Depends
<seb128> Keybuk: I don't think so
<pitti> seb128: yeah, that's what I mean of course *slap myself*
<seb128> pitti: ;-)
<Keybuk> ok, I have one quick agenda item
<Keybuk> GUADEC
<seb128> pitti: that would explain why we didn't win CD space
<Keybuk> they've announced the dates and venue - http://www.guadec.org/node/797
<pitti> seb128: weird -- bzr head *does* have this depends:
<Keybuk> 7th-12th of July: Istanbul, Turkey
<pitti> seb128: got it, fixing
<seb128> pitti: great
<Keybuk> if you'd like to go, please mail me, along with your answer to the following tie-breaker "You should send me to GUADEC because ..."
<Keybuk> since it's in a truly foreign land, you might need a visa, so sooner rather than later
<somerville32> :)
<MacSlow> Keybuk, everything !Germany is foreign... for me at least
<Keybuk> MacSlow: oddly enough, it looks like Germany and Turkey have a visa waiver scheme
<Keybuk> we don't :-(
<Keybuk> anyway, digression
<Keybuk> pedro_: you're up next :-)
<pedro_> thanks, I've a quick agenda item regarding the https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.tag=qa-hardy-list
<pedro_> so if you guys haven't looked at the list yet
<pedro_> please do so
<pedro_> and give us some feedback about it
<Keybuk> (that list so needs "Assignee" - *looks at mpt* :p)
<seb128> pedro_: where should we give feedback?
<pedro_> seb128: on the same reports please
<mpt> bug 78608
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 78608 in malone "Allow specifying arbitrary columns in bug listings" [Low,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/78608
<mpt> and bug 105016
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 105016 in malone "Assignee column on bug list" [Low,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/105016
<pedro_> if you think something doesn't make sense to be there, remove the tag and comment why
<seb128> pedro_: what do you mean? untag those and milestone or not according to what we decide?
<pedro_> seb128: exactly
<seb128> pedro_: because you guys tagged things I already milestoned I think
<seb128> so I was not sure if the tags where useful for -qa or something for the maintainers
<Keybuk> I have a conf call in a few minutes
<Keybuk> so is there any other business?
<pedro_> well if something it's already milestoned the tag should be removed
<pedro_> seb128: i'll look at them
<seb128> pedro_: no need to bother, thanks
<pedro_> ok
<Keybuk> ok, adjourned -- thanks everybodyu
<mvo> thanks
<seb128> thanks Keybuk
<kwwii> thanks
<pedro_> thanks you
<somerville32> :)
<pitti> thanks everyone
<leoquant> hi willem!
<whellinga> hi leoquant
<leoquant> :)
<JanC> hi leoquant & whellinga  ;)
<whellinga> Hi Janc
<whellinga> Are you the JanC with the long hairy hair I met in Bergen op Zoom
<JanC> whellinga: yep
<whellinga> JanC, it's hard for an old man like me to chat in stereo, so please forgive me for notr responding
<no0tic> hi Hattory
<Hattory> hi no0tic ;)
<Hattory> (hi all)
<emgent> hello there ;)
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 10 Jan 16:00 UTC: Community Council | 10 Jan 18:00 UTC: Art Team | 16 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting | 17 Jan 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development | 18 Jan 12:00 UTC: MOTU | 23 Jan 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting
<no0tic> hi totopalma
<totopalma> no0tic, hi :)
<jester-> hi totopalma
<totopalma> jester-, hi
<warp10> totopalma: \o/
<totopalma> warp10, :)
<posingaspopular> @now
<ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: January 10 2008, 15:45:51 - Next meeting: Community Council in 14 minutes
<totopalma> Rospo_Zoppo, o/
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Community Council Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 10 Jan 18:00 UTC: Art Team | 16 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting | 17 Jan 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development | 18 Jan 12:00 UTC: MOTU | 23 Jan 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting
<Rospo_Zoppo> totopalma: o/
<dholbach> hello everybody - at the moment it just seems to be me jsgotangco and me
<dholbach> I pinged sabdfl
<jsgotangco> hmm
<jsgotangco> claire said sabdfl should be free
<juliux> dholbach, i will be back in 20min, driving home;)
<dholbach> MikeB- and Burgundavia said they might be able to make it
<dholbach> hey sabdfl
<sabdfl> howdy everyone, dholbach
<jsgotangco> hi sabdfl
 * johnc4510-laptop morning all
<dholbach> sabdfl: right now it's just you, jsgotangco and me - no sign of MikeB- and Burgundavia yet
<sabdfl> are they online?
<dholbach> doesn't look like :-/
<dholbach> ahhh TechnoViking!
<dholbach> MikeB- in disguise
<sabdfl> well howdy TechnoViking
<TechnoViking> in class
<dholbach> we have an action-packed agenda today: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda
<jsgotangco> heh
<dholbach> jono: are you around?
<TechnoViking> but will contribute when I can
<posingaspopular> hey all, im up for membership today
 * posingaspopular sits back for the time being
<jsgotangco> perhaps we can start on some topics
<sabdfl> ok, i only have one hour, so want to race ahead on the agenda
<sabdfl> full focus, let's dive in
<TechnoViking> so poke me if I don't repond:)
<sabdfl> jono: membership approval boards?
<dholbach> jono seems to be stuck in in a call still, so maybe move on to AmirEldor's agenda point for now
<jono> sorry on a call, can we return to this later?
<dholbach> does anybody know anything about Amir Eldor and his "LoCo Website Hosting. Several teams find it diffcult to manage their websites/domains due to lack of communciation with Canonical's sysadmins" point?
<jsgotangco> AmirEldor is around?
<sabdfl> apparently not
<jsgotangco> it seems no one here is representing that
<dholbach> Ok... let's move on to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncil/Delegation for now then
<dholbach> it's my agenda point and about the election process of team councils
<sabdfl> +1 from me
<sabdfl> i think it's clear and sensible
<dholbach> +1 from me too
<jsgotangco> my understanding is that we've been doing this with some teams early on
<sabdfl> this is not the delegation of membership
<TechnoViking> look good +1
<sabdfl> it's the replacement-of-council-members process that we are focused on today
<sabdfl>      Draft for Team Council member election
<sabdfl> that part
<sabdfl> right dholbach?
<dholbach> sabdfl: exactly
<jsgotangco> good to me
<sabdfl> basically, call fr proposals, TB/CC shortlists, vote
<somerville32> I'm here
<sabdfl> is that everyone?
<dholbach> yes
<somerville32> re: hosting issues
<dholbach> excellent - I will announce it and document it accordingly
<sabdfl> alright, we have a decision
<sabdfl> thanks daniel
<soren> \o/
<dholbach> woohoo
 * dholbach hugs soren
<johnc4510-laptop> nice
<sabdfl> somerville32: are you AmirEldor ?
<dholbach> somerville32: great... can you let us know what the issues are?
 * soren hugs dholbach!
<somerville32> I'm not AmirEldor, no
<somerville32> However, I was going to bring it up but noticed AdmirEldor already had
<jsgotangco> is this regarding existing hosting or new ones
<somerville32> existing
<jsgotangco> ok can you elaborate/cite an experience about it
<somerville32> If we take a walk over to the community rt at http://rt.ubuntu.com, you'll notice that there are 27 tickets open for LoCo team issues
<posingaspopular> jsgotangco: the chicago team has had our planet down for months now
<somerville32> A number of them open for over 3 months with little to no triage
<Admiral_laptop> the entire domain actually since there was an attack on teh Canonical server
<smurf> does that RT have guest access?
<sabdfl> Admiral_Chicago: iirc, it was not a Canonical server that was attacked
<sabdfl> in fact, elmo and co have been trying to clean up and help out
<somerville32> For example, the ubuntu-ca team requested shell accounts on Fri Oct 05 07:01:12 2007
<jsgotangco> thats right there are some teams on a different server host
<Admiral_Chicago> sabdfl: it may not have been but it was a big deal, hit slashdot and digg iirv
<jsgotangco> and those servers have ssl keys of reps from lcoteams
<somerville32> The request was re-sent on Fri, 2 Nov 2007 19:26:35 -0700 and Fri, 28 Dec 2007 23:16:00 -0800
<sabdfl> i don't know enough about the current loco website offering
<jsgotangco> same here
<jsgotangco> but what i recall before
<jsgotangco> is that locos were on a bunch of servers outside canonical's
<somerville32> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/loco-contacts/2007-August/001510.html <-- describes the current policy
<sabdfl> not sure who the sysadmins are that would fulfil these requests
<sabdfl> if canonical is providing hosting they probably cannot just grant anyone admin access
<jsgotangco> and had the ssl keys of those who volunteered to maintain
<jsgotangco> thats right
<somerville32> sabdfl, The issue is that they're not even replying to some tickets.
<boredandblogging> locos have the option of being hosted by canonical but restricted in what they can run
<boredandblogging> or they can choose to run their own
<popey> (or get someone else to host it like ubuntu-eu.org)
<jsgotangco> right
<boredandblogging> popey: right
<posingaspopular> i think what the point is focusing on is boosting support and eliminating the backlog
<posingaspopular> for those LoCo sitess that are being run through Canonical
<popey> there is indeed some bad words said about the provision of service by the canonical system admins - personally I don't see this issue, but have seen mention of it on irc and on the loco teams mailing lists
<somerville32> popey, Simply take a look at the backlog on the request tracker
<popey> sure, I understand, I meant, I have had no issues personally and I have hosting with canonical
<popey> my bad wording
<somerville32> Generally I've not had any problems until lately
<somerville32> But I know my requests regarding the Xubuntu website (made a number of weeks ago) and the ubuntu-ca website have gone unanswered
<popey> however I find it helps to be patient and ask the right people nicely, but I have noted some peoples patience has run thin
<sabdfl> this team is overloaded, we have a similar backlog within canonical
<TechnoViking> would it be possible to find a small group of trusted people in the community to admin this server, to take the load off of the Canonical admins?
<sabdfl> what are the services offered? is it:
<sabdfl>  - shell accounts
<sabdfl>  - websites
<sabdfl>  - ?
<sabdfl> mailing lists?
<jsgotangco> probably mailing lists
<popey> pre-selected apps such as drupal
<somerville32> sabdfl, https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/loco-contacts/2007-August/001510.html
<doctormo> database? scripting?
<effie_jayx> planets
<popey> shell accounts are less abundant
<sabdfl> somerville32: doesn't say what is actually offered, and if there is any promise of a particular SLA
<popey> and less required for many people
<smurf> Still, even if the team doesn't have "free" time, four months is a bit much
<dholbach> jsgotangco: mailing lists are hopefully going to be dealt with in a more fluent fashion once the Loco Council is up and running
<sabdfl> ideally, we should use LP to enforce access, via openid and ssh, and team membership
<jsgotangco> my opinion is that community driven sites should be managed by community - the problem though is that it didn't work as expected so it resulted to compromised servers
<sabdfl> mailing lists will also shortly be in LP
<doctormo> sabdfl: that's good to hear
<somerville32> sabdfl, James describes what Canonical is offering to loco teams: ~"shell accounts, no root access, pre-selected list of apps, no CGIs"
<sabdfl> jsgotangco: +1, the choice in that mail was clear: do it yourself at your own risk and cost, or use the service canonical provides, which will come with some constraints
<sabdfl> somerville32: there's no SLA there
<sabdfl> though "full sysadmin support" does sound attractive ;-)
<sabdfl> but i happen to know that team is very stretched, and has a backlog internally too
<doctormo> There is a problem though, my LoCo mailing list I want lots of users to join and recieve updates, but launchpad needs to keep a list of more commited people. currently we try and keep launchpad members to those.
<popey> I suspect part of the problem comes from having previously had a good turnaround when the services were provided outside canonical, and the transition to canonical supported has led to a degredation in service?
<sabdfl> so i'm not inclined to feel they are letting the community down
<sabdfl> doctormo: use different teams, and subteams if you want folks to be able to just be a member in one place
<sabdfl> popey: degradation == thus-far-unhacked?
<doctormo> duly noted, good idea
<popey> point taken
<sabdfl> i will ask james (elmo) if there are obvious things we could do to delegate some activities
<sabdfl> like getting mailing lists in LP
<sabdfl> i'd like to know what the majority of the RT tickets look like
<sabdfl> but i don't have a login in that RT
<somerville32> sabdfl, ubuntu : ubuntu
<sabdfl> that should be in LP answer-tracker, IMO
<popey> there are tickets in there too
<popey> (lp)
<effie_jayx> it got moved from launchpad...
<effie_jayx> to rt I remember
<boredandblogging> yeah, tickets should not be made in LP anymore
<dholbach> to me it looks like the advent of the Loco Council and mailing lists on LP will resolve a good deal of those issues
<jsgotangco> i agree
<dholbach> in the meantime it might make sense to try to find out what could be delegated
<popey> sabdfl: degredation == lack of communication and no visible delivery of service for _some_ people, would be more accurate
 * popey suspects that the proposed loco council could perhaps offload at least _some_ of the workload from system admins at canonical
<somerville32> To handle the tickets regarding user accounts, why not utilize the launchpad and the already available lpusers script created by the MOTU team?
<popey> clearly not dishing out ssh logons, but _something_?
<sabdfl> ok, i will ask james for an update
<somerville32> It would result in: a) Management of shell accounts via launchpad group membership b) Mail notification of deletion/addition of accounts to admins c) Point of contact
<popey> adding a layer between locos and the system admins might allow us to reduce the number of tickets in their queue
<dholbach> shall we move on to the Membership Approval Boards?
<sabdfl> are there folks in the loco council who can at least delete, amend and prioritise tickets?
<popey> loco council doesn't exist yet does it?
<posingaspopular> no
<popey> hence "proposed" :)
<juliux> i think there is no loco council yet
<jono> wrapping up my call...
 * popey pokes jono 
<dholbach> yes, it's on the agenda for today
<jono> back#
<sabdfl> i think any members of loco / irc / forums / kubuntu etc councils should be able to amend / prioritise tickets
<jono> sorry about that
<juliux> dholbach, loco council is there since september nobody remove it from the agenda;)
<sabdfl> i'll ask for that
<jono> one of the primary aims of the loco council is to delegate resource decisions
<dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoTeams/LoCoCouncil
<jono> before my calls this afternoon I was working on a recommended list of members for the council
<sabdfl> ok
<jono> so I hope to have the recommendation ready in the next week or so
<juliux> great
<jono> the loco council can also deal with conflict
<jono> like other team councils
<jono> I think it will help scale the growing loco community
<sabdfl>   - The nominees support from at least one active LoCo Team Council member (essential).
<sabdfl> doesn't seem to allow for the wholesale firing of a team council
<jono> what do you mean sabdfl?
<sabdfl> of course we want new members of the team council to fit into the existing council
<sabdfl> but
<sabdfl> to have that as a blocking condition is weird
<sabdfl> we may need to appoint someone to a team council that isn't popular with the existing crew
<sabdfl> and this sort of bullet makes that difficult
<sabdfl> was that cargo-culted from an existing team council charter?
<popey> should it not be "at least one active community council member"?
<jono> do you have an example of appointing an unpopular council member, sabdfl?
<sabdfl> hard for the CC to appoint someone nobody supports
<sabdfl> no, but i also don't have a use case for requiring a team to be self-selecting
<jono> right
<sabdfl> i would just remove that bullet
<sabdfl> nice that this neatly addresses the RT prioritisation issue too
<sabdfl> with that bullet removed, +1 from me
<jono> sabdfl: I am happy with that
<jono> (not that I am on the CC) :P
<sabdfl> thoughts, opinions?
<dholbach> I'm happy with the proposal: +1 from me
<Burgundavia> +1 from me as well
<dholbach> it's going to make a big change
<TechnoViking> +1 here
<dholbach> oh hey Burgundavia :)
<jsgotangco> i concur with the bullet removal too
 * somerville32 nods.
<dholbach> nice, another decision made :)
<dholbach> let's move on to the Membership Approval Boards: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StreamlineMembershipApproval
<jono> dholbach: :)
<jsgotangco> well its the first CC meeting for the new year, we have to start good heh
<dholbach> I had a conversation with jono about it today and we found a few points we could discuss now
<dholbach> "Outstanding Issues" at the end of that wiki page
<jono> yeah, the points raised were some initial concerns I had
<dholbach> I believe we agreed on the general spec before, but 1) amount of meetings, 2) possible bottleneck in the CC<->Board reporting and 3) amount of people on the board might be problematic
<jsgotangco> bi-weekly would be good as that is our aim in CC
<posingaspopular> the point about weekly meetings... bi weekly might work best
<dholbach> jsgotangco: New Year's resolution? :-)
<sabdfl> two questions
<sabdfl> the Governance Review section of the document is a little misplaced
<jono> sabdfl: ahhh yes, that is something I felt was not required
<sabdfl> it's here because we said "jeez, if we delegate the membership approvals, we will have time to delve into the substantive portions of the project, and this is what we should do with that time"
<chuckf> sorry for my late arrival
<sabdfl> it's sort of a statement of what folks should expect from the CC once this delegation is rocking
<sabdfl> it's nice for an announcement that goes with the setup of the membership approval process
<jono> to me the review part should be part of a wider effort, and is not specific to any specific council
<sabdfl> yes
<dholbach> I believe the original intention of it was to make sure we have no disconnect between the CC and those Boards - in that case I believe a public and regular reporting plus a escalation process to the CC might work better
<jono> exactly
<sabdfl> we should get folks (lead by Dennis and Daniel and Jono) to propose "things the CC needs to talk about" on a pretty systematic basis
<jono> team reporting should resolve part of this concern - reporting in my mind should be a council requirement
<jono> sabdfl: indeed
<sabdfl> the conversations should be more interesting, make for more interesting coverage in UWN and elsewhere
<juliux> did we realy need an other council to approve members? i think we have a lot of councils allready
<sabdfl> could be external things too, like how we are doing w.r.t. Debian, and upstreams
<sabdfl> like kernel etc
<sabdfl> interesting stuff
<jono> I agreew
<sabdfl> juliux: we need a more efficient process, w.r.t. time zones
<jono> I think this would be useful as part of the general team council structure - councils raise "hot button" issues with the CC
<sabdfl> i would actually expect more memberships to be attained via specific project teams like kubuntu and edubuntu
<sabdfl> perhaps we don't express that pathway enough in the docs
<jono> I think approvals via team councils make sense, but it makes sense to have generalist membership councils like this
<sabdfl> "you can become a member by becoming a member of any of these teams: MOTU, IRC Council, Forums Moderators etc"
<sabdfl> jono: +1 too
<jono> the key thing is in ensuring that the membership process is clear so any council can effectively judge
<sabdfl> second question i had was about quorum
<sabdfl> i am a little nervous about back-room approvals of buddies
<sabdfl> i.e. 3 guys on the regional approval team just agree to +1 someone
<jsgotangco> that's a valid concern
<jono> this is a potential risk with any council
<jono> although geographic placement does increase the risk
<jono> same loco teams, conferences etc mean people get to meet physically and develop alliances
<sabdfl> would be better if there was a requirement that each +1 be at least raised in a regular meeting
<PriceChild> sabdfl, about that "you can become a member..." sentence - perhaps changing that to the council rather than being part of the team they govern.
<PriceChild> *applying to the council
<jono> oh hang on, sabdfl, do you mean that people may just approve people offline?
<sabdfl> in other words, if someone cannot attend a regular meeting, they can get 3 folks to say "cool i am +1" but that still needs to be raised in aregular meeting, the three folks need to say +1, and IF someone else raises a question, they can resolve it between them then
<jono> I would suggest its a requirement that all approvals are done in meetings
<dholbach> we could require approval boards to send full reports (with logs, etc) to the CC or make them publically available and there's a period where the CC can object to any of those
<ScottK> How about a team mailing list as an alternative?
<sabdfl> jono: for now, at least, there should be many meetings per week at many different times, MUCH harder to imagine someone can't make *any* meeting
<ScottK> We did that once for a Kubuntu member who couldn't make it to the meeting and it worked well and was very transparent.
<sabdfl> cool
<popey> dholbach: it's a bit nasty to have someone approved then rejected
<jono> in my mind the major benefit of our governance is that members are judged before a panel, and people can raise objections if required
<sabdfl> popey: it would not be approved till it's approved
<popey> well yes, double approval
<ScottK> With a suitable comment period, a ML supports that.
<sabdfl> the folks could say "i will +1 you, other folks may want to discuss it with you or chat to you in person"
<jono> sabdfl: I would also suggest that attending your approval meeting is a requirement for approval :P
<popey> multi-level approval rather
<jsgotangco> +1 to jono
<kjcole> totally off the wall, but... with webapps does everything have to be done in real-time?  (I mean stockholders can mail in their votes when they cannot attend meetings...)
<sabdfl> popey: no, CC would not review these before addition in LP, only review summaries
<chuckf> jono the problem is time zones and work schedules much as the problem with me is currently
<dholbach> popey: it's what we have for becoming ubuntu-core-dev right now: a recommendation by the MOTU Council, then a discussion with the Technical Board
<popey> ok
<sabdfl> actually initially, they will require that CC add them
<jono> chuckf: this is why we are doing this - regional timezones
<popey> makes more sense
<sabdfl> ok, so:
<jsgotangco> there is a reason why we are doing it geographically
<jono> and I would still recommend varied timeslots - so if in the US there is a meeting in the morning, the next in eve etc - then it makes it simple
<sabdfl>  - you are required to attend your approval
<PriceChild> popey, I don't like the idea of someone being deferred by the cc, then going through someone else without either knowing which isn't as mad as it sounds
<sabdfl>  - it must happen at a scheduled time
<dholbach> The proposal planned to have 6 months of supervisory mode anyway.
<sabdfl> PriceChild: we would pick that up, i think
<sabdfl> +1 from me with those clarifications
<jono> sabdfl: spot on
<jono> are we happy with 10 council members?
<jono> I thought was a quite a lot
<popey> thats quite a pool
<juliux> it should be an odd number
<dholbach> I agree - it's harder to have a quorum
<chuckf> I'd like an odd number to break deadlocks
<popey> dholbach: depends what you set the quorum at
<jono> it worries me we can maintain the quality with such a high number of members required
<JanC> quorum doesn't have to be 50% ?
<dholbach> popey: right
<juliux> so you can't have a dead lock
<popey> make it 7, and 50% quorum, get matt revell to be the half a person ;)
<no0tic> how would members be appointed?
<dholbach> poor mrevell
<sabdfl> the meetings will have variable numbers
<jono> popey: heh, he is sat opposite me...on a high chair :)
<jsgotangco> a quorum should consist of members in neighboring timezones as to fulfill the geographical separation of the council
<sabdfl> i think anyone of the regional council at a meeting can veto a person
<sabdfl> it's got to be consensual
<johnc4510-laptop> would there be a problem with having one CC member sit in on loco team council meeting for oversight
<sabdfl> quorum just means "minimum +1's"
<sabdfl> johnc4510-laptop: don't want to require that, we will review and approve before they are added to the teams, at least initially
<johnc4510-laptop> kk
<jono> sabdfl: like I say, my only concern was finding 10 good quality council members for a region
<jono> I would prefer few members that we have complete confidence in
<popey> 10 per region, not 10 total?
<sabdfl> jono: let's say "at least 7" ?
<jono> sabdfl: sounds good to me
<sabdfl> or just take that out, state the minimum, and get going
<dholbach> ok, great - it'll be great to have these in place
<jono> good stuff
<sabdfl> alrighty, i have 7 minutes left
<jono> so are the CC happy with the changes we have discussed?
<sabdfl> +1
<dholbach> +1 from me too
<TechnoViking> +1 for me
<jsgotangco> +1 from mee as well
<jono> :)
<dholbach> rock and roll
<sabdfl> SUPER!
<sabdfl> folks, do you realise what this means?
<sabdfl> short, fun, contentious CC meetings :-D
<dholbach> :-)
<posingaspopular> it means sabdfl can ride around his rocke instead of CC meetings
<sabdfl> for example, we've just done 4 items that are of the caliber we *should* be tackling, in 1 hour
<jono> sabdfl: bring it on :)
<popey> \o/
<sabdfl> this rocks!
<Burgundavia> yay
<sabdfl> on that note, i must prep for another call
<sabdfl> :-(
<jono> sabdfl: later skater :)
<jsgotangco> heh
<sabdfl> thanks dholbach, jono for steering us forward on those delegations
<jsgotangco> catch you later
<chuckf> I thought this was the community council meeting
<popey> chuckf: it is
<mrevell> popey: I'll get you one of these days.
<popey> hehe
<chuckf> what about team approval?
<jsgotangco> we're not done yet
<chuckf> ah
<chuckf> sorry
<jono> chuckf: too much gatorade?
<chuckf> I'm getting pulled into another meeting in a minute or two
<jsgotangco> ok let's move on
<jsgotangco> team denmark
<chuckf> can we do team maryland?
<chuckf> or I can come back later
<jsgotangco> are supports of Danish Team around
<jsgotangco> if not we'll move to Maryland
<chuckf> if it's going to be longer than 2 minutes, I gotta come back
<juliux> gnomonic ist not here
<jsgotangco> fine no one from the danish team
<jsgotangco> chuckf: go nuts
<chuckf> well we have the app page, I thought this was going to be me answering questions
<chuckf> we're almost a year old. we've had decent progress and events
<chuckf> we have 4 or fve things in the pipeline for promoting Ubuntu right now
<dholbach> chuckf: what do you think is the most challenging item on your roadmap?
<jsgotangco> there seems to be good communication going sa there are regular meetings
<chuckf> we have a good solid core of team members that keep movving things forward
<chuckf> dholbach the most challenging thing is convincing people that Linux is a good viable alternative
<chuckf> and keeping people interested and not just being passive in the group
<juliux> chuckf, how much people attend your real life meetings?
<chuckf> we have regular meetings and are discussing expanding mettings to other areas fo the state as some travel up o 45 minutes to attends
<chuckf> juliux about 7-10 on average
<juliux> cool
<chuckf> and then for events we get better turnouts
<jsgotangco> is anyone else from team maryland here?
<chuckf> not at the moment
<chuckf> and I have to go to a meeting, sorry
<chuckf> I'll be back as I can
<JanC> or people who know their activities?
<dholbach> ok, we'll get back to chuckf then
<kjcole> DC here.  I can say they helped out at one of our installfests.
<dholbach> is somebody of the Colombia team here?
<kjcole> (JanC: A bit of cross-LoCo work.)
<jsgotangco> dholbach: let's move to candidates
<dholbach> ok
<jsgotangco> i can't stay long either, i have a plane to catch in 4 hours tee hee
<dholbach> deadwill, demrit, paulliu, forlong, ricardoperez are not around
<dholbach> juliux: you are on the list? :)
<juliux> dholbach, i think you can remove forlong;)
<juliux> dholbach, yes i am;)
<dholbach> juliux: you want to get your membership renewed?
<juliux> yes i want;)
<dholbach> I believe you can do this on your own in LP :)
<jsgotangco> its self service renewal!
<juliux> my last one expired last year november, but i don't like the renew it yourself process
<jsgotangco> unless you would like the floor
<jsgotangco> ahh principled!
<dholbach> ok... I'm all +1 for it
<juliux> jsgotangco, yes
<juliux> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JuliusBloch that is my wikipage;)
<jsgotangco> please feel free to give your piece now!
<jsgotangco> eh?
<dholbach> juliux_ is a^Wthe driving force behind the German Loco :)
<dholbach> jsgotangco, TechnoViking, Burgundavia?
<jsgotangco> "Treasure of the german ubuntu association"
<juliux_> sorry disconnect
<juliux_> what was my last lineÃ
<juliux_> ?
<juliux_> dholbach, i am one of a bigger group;)
<juliux_> jsgotangco, yes i have the job for the next two years again;)
<dholbach> jsgotangco: I'm sure that is supposed to mean "Treasurer" :)
<jsgotangco> yeah
<juliux_> ohh
<Burgundavia> +1 from me, renewal is pretty straightforward
<jsgotangco> but that's fine!
<jsgotangco> a treasure is still good
<jsgotangco> +1
<dholbach> :-)
<dholbach> technoviking seems to have vanished
<juliux_> jsgotangco, thanks fixed
<jsgotangco> i cannot stay long too
<dholbach> that doesn't make it exactly easy
<tritium> If I may suggest, gcleric has a few supporters here.  May he state his case?
<jsgotangco> who else is up for membership
<tritium> We have taken time off work to be here for him because we feel strongly about his application.
<posingaspopular> i am!
<greg-g> and I
<warp10> jsgotangco: me too!
<johnc4510-laptop> so is tyche
<whellinga> I am too
<posingaspopular> tritium: me too for myself ;p
<juliux> thxs jsgotangco Burgundavia and dholbach for the +1;)
<leoquant> me too
<jsgotangco> dholbach: i can sit in 15 mins more but that's it
<gcleric> we'll make is qucik....
<dholbach> it's a bit though without quorum
<boredandblogging> fyi, the danish team has already been approved
<SWAT> jsgotangco, if you follow the member candidates list, you'll notice quite some people missing.
<dholbach> it's just jsgotangco, Burgundavia and me
<dholbach> thanks boredandblogging
<jsgotangco> Steven Harper
<jsgotangco> Alessio Treglia
<no0tic> alessio treglia is not here atm
<jsgotangco> Jussi Schultink
<jussi01> Im here
<jsgotangco> there
<Seeker``> woo for jussi01!!
 * Pici cheers
<jussi01> pastebomb
<jussi01> Hi, Im Jussi Schultink, and I work with the Ubuntu Studio team, IRC and Kubuntu. My main areas of contribution are to IRC and forum support, packaging, bug reporting and fixing. I have been with the ubuntu studio team since around feb 07. I am an operator on #kubuntu and #ubuntustudio and try to contribute help wherever I can on these and other channels. I also manage the Ubuntu Studio Users and Devel mailing lists. I am a motu mentoree, (unde
<jsgotangco> go!
<Seeker``> That got cut off for me - I didn't see anything past "motu mentoree, (unde"
<jussi01> (under persia's helpful guidance) and while I have had to leave some of my packaging work for the last few months things have quietened down so that I can now continue with that. My lp https://edge.launchpad.net/~jussi01 is and my wiki page is: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JussiSchultink
<jsgotangco> hmm
<jsgotangco> we don't have quorum now
<jsgotangco> how is your MOTU progress?
<dholbach> It seems you uploaded a few packages already: https://launchpad.net/~jussi01/+packages
<jussi01> jsgotangco: unfortunately persia is not here, but its been a little slow as mentioned. I have a couple of universe pckages and Im working on some more
<jsgotangco> its still a good start
<_MMA_> Id like to give a big +1 to Jussi's work on Ubuntu Studio. He has been a great help to the team and has been great at support on IRC and Ubuntu Forums.
<jussi01> Im also working with persia and learning the other facets of MOTU'ing but as mentioned schedules have prevented a lot of that till now
<jsgotangco> I'm pretty happy with the progress
<jpatrick> I'd like give jussi01 another big +1 for his Kubuntu op work
<jsgotangco> +1 for me
<posingaspopular> jussi01 is always in #kubuntu and helping out. he answers all the questions before me. i think Jucato will agree
<dholbach> I'm happy to give a +1, but as we don't have a quorum, we could do the rest of this approval by email.
<jsgotangco> but unfortunately we don't have quorum
<Burgundavia> +1 for me, but yes
<jsgotangco> so I'm sorry to say we'll hvae to end this meeting with jussi01
<Jucato> I agree (about jussi01 :D)
<ardchoille> +1 from me for jussi01
<dholbach> jussi01: can you mail this email conversation to the community council mailing list with the request for approval?
<tritium> jsgotangco: when will the remaining applicants be re-scheduled?
<SWAT> jsgotangco, can I at least support whellinga and leoquant? (for the record)
<bbartek> I came here to support leoquant for his great work on the dutch forum (he's a moderator of this forum and biggest spammer 7.756 posts) and wiki documentation +1
 * tritium will take more vacation from work to support gcleric 
<jussi01> dholbach: of course
<Seeker``> there should be a member-approval only meeting
<dholbach> tritium: sorry for that :-/
<dholbach> Seeker``: that's why we discussed the membership approval boards today
<tritium> dholbach: no worries
<jsgotangco> tritium: we have one scheduled in 2 weeks but to be annoucned yet
<dholbach> that's going to make it all a lot easier
<nxvl_work> does the Mobile team meeting already started?
<Munchkinguy> When is art meeting?
<dholbach> nxvl_work: I believe they are in #ubuntu-mobile
<dholbach> @now
<ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: January 10 2008, 17:22:41 - Current meeting: Community Council
<PriceChild> nxvl, /topic
<jsgotangco> ok i gotta go
<dholbach> ok... meeting adjourned
<jsgotangco> thanks
<dholbach> thanks everybody
<whellinga> tnx
<jussi01> thanks all
<juliux> thanks all
<Seeker``> dholbach: ah, I missed that
<nxvl_work> oh so we are still on CC meeting?
 * effie_jayx cheers for jussi01 
<bbartek> and i came also to give my support for whellinga for his great event the Gutsy Release Party
<leoquant> is this meeting over?
<tritium> Yes, adjourned at 10:22
<Burgundavia> yes, we are done
<tritium> well, three minutes ago
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 10 Jan 18:00 UTC: Art Team | 16 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting | 17 Jan 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development | 18 Jan 12:00 UTC: MOTU | 23 Jan 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting | 30 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting
<no0tic> @now
<ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: January 10 2008, 17:35:28 - Next meeting: Art Team in 24 minutes
<Kver> If this were a theatre, right now some guy would be cleaning popcorn and sticky stuff from around the room.
<lapo> hi
<Who_> hi
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Art Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 12 Jan 11:00 UTC: Kubuntu Developers | 16 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting | 17 Jan 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development | 18 Jan 12:00 UTC: MOTU | 23 Jan 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting
<chuckf> so the CC meeting is over?
<jpatrick> chuckf: ages ago
<chuckf> ah well
<soren> Well... Half an hour or so ago.
<chuckf> I'm off to work then
<kwwii> hi all, everyone here?
<encompass> howdy, at least I am :P
<kwwii> for the art team meeting, I mean :-)
<andreasn> hi
<Who_> hi
<Kver> Ello
<elohel> echo
<kwwii> ok, let's get going we have a bit to discuss
<encompass> ok
<kwwii> how does this thing work again....let's see how big of a fool I can make of myself
<kwwii> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 18:00. The chair is kwwii.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<Kver> That seemed fairly easy... Too easy.
<andreasn> I forgot all about the commands since last time as well :)
<kwwii> hehe, it is deceptively easy to forget
<kwwii> anyone have anything we need to add to the agenda or something to bring up now before we start on the agenda?
<encompass> yes I do
<encompass> :)
<kwwii> encompass: please, go ahead
<encompass> at least I just emailed it so you may not have it...
<kwwii> nothing yet
<andreasn> url to the agenda?
<Kver> MeMaker, corrent?
<Kver> *correct
<kwwii> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Meetings
<andreasn> thanks!
<kwwii> np
<Kver> see, no speelcak.
<somerville32> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Meetings
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Meetings
<encompass> I am the creator of a program called memaker, we need artwork for it.  Beings it is hopefully going into the next ubuntu live cd and part of the ubuntu desktop we the memaker team feel it is important to get themed artowrk for memaker.
<kwwii> ahhh, yes, MeMaker
<encompass> there :D
<encompass> kwwii good, at least someone knows it here... :D
<kwwii> Thorsten started working on one head
<kwwii> hehe, macslow showed it to me when we were looking into the new gdm stuff
<kwwii> pretty important for us, so yes, we do need to get some nice pics to include
<kwwii> encompass: should we send any interested parties directly to you?
<Who_> encompass: have you had any response so far form your mail to the list?
<encompass> kwwii yeah... and for now we have a great theme to start with... cocohead... but everyone is free to make what they like if they ahve something else they want to try
<encompass> yes, we have a very active list...
<encompass> let me get that...
<encompass> http://lists.memaker.org/listinfo.cgi/memaker-art-memaker.org
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://lists.memaker.org/listinfo.cgi/memaker-art-memaker.org
<encompass> there
<kwwii> encompass: one good thing to point to would be some instructions on what one needs to be care of when working on this stuff
<CpidWolf> Hi, sorry i'm late, can someone summup what you are talking about ? =) thanks.
<encompass> yeah... a good place to start would be...
<encompass> http://launchpad.net/memaker/
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://launchpad.net/memaker/
<encompass> it has all relevent links there
<kwwii> CupidWolf: we are just about to start going through the agenda, talking about getting some pics for MeMaker
<encompass> including general instructions on how to make a themed set
<CupidWolf> okay, thank you
<kwwii> encompass: we might want to add a part to our wiki about this stuff with the links, contact info, etc
<encompass> ok what page would you like me to add that to?
<Who_> encompass: I was thinking when I asked about lists of whether the ubuntu-artwork list had produced anything yet...
<zLox> Hi there. Please decide to ditch Launchpad. It is proprietary and evil!
<encompass> Who_: nope... nothing
<kwwii> hrm, not sure...let me see
<encompass> Actually I think I kind of lost in the mess
<zLox> Evil, I tell thee!
<encompass> It not to hard to get started in memaker... and themes are made in inkscape
<_MMA_> encompass: Has it been packaged yet?
<kwwii> I guess for a start we could put something in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Hardy/Alternate
<encompass> _MMA_: jsut finishing that... should be ready in a few days
<kwwii> ok, let's get to the agenda before it gets too late
<_MMA_> k
<thorwil> plop!
<encompass> thorwil: hey there...
<kwwii> TOPIC Theme/Icons roadmap for hardy and hardy+1
<kwwii> TOPIC: Theme/Icons roadmap for hardy and hardy+1
<kwwii> erm
<Kver> try the []'s
<encompass> thorwil: has been working on some art
<kwwii> [TOPIC) Theme/Icons roadmap for hardy and hardy+1
<somerville32> [TOPIC] Theme/Icons roadmap for hardy and hardy+1
<kwwii> oh come on
<lapo> kwwii: you really need to learn how to use that bot :-)
* steph_ changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Theme/Icons roadmap for hardy and hardy+1
<Kver> Should I make my lord of the rings reference?
<somerville32> ...
<kwwii> steph_: no, not that
<steph_> =) : /topic
<steph_> oops.
<somerville32> kwwii, type what I typed
<thorwil> encompass: i will work on it some more :)  getting worried about how long it atkes, though
<encompass> there we go
<Kver> You missed the second square bracket.
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Art Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 12 Jan 11:00 UTC: Kubuntu Developers | 16 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting | 17 Jan 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development | 18 Jan 12:00 UTC: MOTU | 23 Jan 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting
<kwwii> lol
<Kver> huzzah!
<kwwii> [TOPIC] Theme/Icons roadmap for hardy and hardy+1
<MootBot> New Topic:  Theme/Icons roadmap for hardy and hardy+1
<encompass> thorwil: your working on the life like one right?
<kwwii> w00t
<thorwil> encompass: yes
<encompass> thorwil: as nice at it is... I don't think that is "themed" enough for ubuntu
<thorwil> encompass: let's talk about that another time, gotta be ontopic here ;)
<kwwii> so, in case anyone has not seen the blueprints or heard the news from the mailing list we will not be radically changing Hardy themeing because it is the last in the LTS cycle
<kwwii> Hardy+1 will be the first version with a totally different theme
<kwwii> this does not mean that we should not be working on this stuff now though
<Who_> kwwii: so do we plan to start developing that theme now
<Who_> ?
<Who_> (kwwii - using the mootbot, can we all suggest 'ideas, or is that for you?)
<kwwii> we need to get a very good idea of where we want to go now and with Hardy change a few things to show direction and get things together so that we can really start changing things with a plan over a longer time
<kwwii> Who_: no idea
<kwwii> try it
<encompass> if anyone want to continue talking about memaker hope into ubuntu-artwork and we can talk more there
<Who_> [IDEA] We start the development of the Hardy +1 theme now
<MootBot> IDEA received:  We start the development of the Hardy +1 theme now
<Who_> 6 months seems a very short time for a complete rethink
<kwwii> Who_: exactly, that is the plan but it should be clear that such radical changes will not be included in HArdy
<steph_> ok so Hardy won't have the brand new theme announced on the Web ?
<damianvila> [IDEA] Let's do big changes from LTS to LTS, the other releases just change or add backgrounds and polich the theme...
<MootBot> IDEA received:  Let's do big changes from LTS to LTS, the other releases just change or add backgrounds and polich the theme...
<kwwii> Who_: doing things on a strictly 6month cycle is like reinventing the wheel every 6 months when there is only so many ways to draw a circle
<Who_> damianvilla: that's a good idea but the NEW theme should be at the beginning of the LTS cycle
<damianvila> *polish, sorry
<Who_> kwwii: I agree :)
<kwwii> damianvila: yes, the plan is that the LTS ends a cycle so in between we will have more major changes which we will polish until that cycle ends with it'S LTS
<Who_> damianvilla: that way when we get to the LTS release it is polished and beautiful
<Kver> On short-term releases, we try new stuff; On long-term releases, we polish...
<kwwii> exactly
<Kver> I'm smurt.
<zLox> [IDEA] We stop using Launchpad, since it's proprietary and evil.
<MootBot> IDEA received:  We stop using Launchpad, since it's proprietary and evil.
<somerville32> zLox,please stop
<kwwii> as far as icons go, we have so much to do that there is no real break yet
<Who_> kwwii: so then, what are the main targets for polish THIS release - can they go on in the background of a bigger redesign for the NEXT release?
<Kver> He'd hate my toaster, it's proprietary.
<Kver> Burns toast.
<steph_> :D
<kwwii> Who_: some parts of it, yes
<zLox> just the truh
<kwwii> for this release we should look into changing the wallpaper, tweaking the theme with some new elements
<steph_> +1
<kallepersson> +1
<kwwii> I would like to see the work on the panel icons get pretty far
<steph_> we've GOT to change those wallpapers
<somerville32> We've already changed the wallpaper :P
<somerville32> Albeit Alpha 3 may not have one at all :P
<encompass> steph_: Totally agree
<andreasn> I had a list with icons that had some issues that could need some tweaks (pixel alignment etc.), but I can't seem to find the list :/
<Who_> I think wallpapers should be a bigger priority than panel icons
<encompass> agree
<Kver> Agreed.
<somerville32> Who_, Do you mean extra ones or the default one?
<steph_> default one is really, really ugly
<encompass> just a default it cool with me
<kwwii> Who_: sure, but this would be one point were we know now that we want that kind of thing in Hardy+1 so getting it in now is a step in the right direction
<Who_> Because of space on the CD, I think we're always talking about the default, plus a couple of extras
<steph_> who's managing the icon theme ?
<kwwii> we only include the default and two other wallpapers, iirc
<steph_> cause I noticed a few changes in Hardy
<Who_> kwwii: yes, good point. hadn't thought of that
<somerville32> kwwii, We only include two wallpapers including the default
<steph_> the Update available icon is just great
<kwwii> steph_: the human icon theme is maintained by the art team (and myself I guess)
<Kver> I think we should try to have 3, maybe 4 other wallpapers that are -very- different.
<steph_> aren't we the art team ?
<kwwii> somerville32: we also include the one dawn of ubuntu or whatever it is called
<Who_> Kver: remember that we aren't as free as we can be on what we can put in - space is very limited on teh CD
<steph_> yeah
<kwwii> steph_: yes
<steph_> all right
<somerville32> kwwii, ubuntu-wallapers only has two
<somerville32> kwwii, Maybe it is provided by a different package?
<kwwii> somerville32: right
<steph_> I think a really nice one is better than four average
<thorwil> ack
<Who_> kwwii: will there be any colour tweaking for the Human GTK theme?
<Kver> What about the resolution/quality of the file itself?
<Jense> I suggest including four nice ones
<kwwii> so, my whole point is that we need to keep in mind what we are doing in the next 4months and the next 10+ months, how those two things are part of one plan but still seperate
<encompass> I know svg can be hard... but it does save space and looks nice at many resolutions.
<kwwii> Who_: yes, I could imagine us changing things a little bit
<kwwii> Who_: if needed and we come up with something decent
<damianvila> So, Hardy will be a polished Human, right? Maybe witha new wallpaper. Hardy+1 will be a different concept...
<kwwii> damianvila: basicaly
<encompass> dang ... and bummer but it would be most feasable
<steph_> kwwii, I think we still got work to do on the GTK theme, cause I had a look at the Wiki, and none of the theme is good enough, I think
<kwwii> we can start to use some of the ideas though
<kwwii> like the buttons, or the window deco or such
<steph_> yep
<kwwii> we can change quite a bit but we do not want this release to feel like something totally new and untested
<steph_> sure
<kwwii> the point is to know where you want to go in the future and then take little steps toward that
<steph_> but we can tweak a few things
<kwwii> right
<Who_> steph_: you are referring to a NEW theme not being good enough or the current default Human?
<andreasn> changing a theme is a very easy way to break all your applications, so it would probably be safest to make tiny or no changes at all for this release on the gtk theme
<steph_> which one do you mean by NEW one ?
<kwwii> andreasn: right, I can imagine new window decoration buttons, perhaps
<kwwii> and tweaking some colors would go a long way
<Who_> does anyone know whether Human is compliant with Gnome's new colour change system in the Appearance dialogue? Because if it isnt we should probably fix that as a priority
<andreasn> kwwii: sounds sane
<steph_> andreasn, I agree, tiny changes
<kwwii> Who_: no it is still not
<encompass> I want to see something like a new mouse theme too
<Who_> steph_: some of the concepts on the wiki
<thorwil> i think icon tweaks and new wallpaper are  enough for hardy
<lapo> kwwii: window decorations should not be a problem, ui theme probably is
<kwwii> we had a pretty good version but some of the colors where just wrong and nobody could make it better
<Kver> encompass: IDMZ-Black is nice, we could tweak it for a professional look
<steph_> Who_, yeah, there are some ideas we can use, but none of the theme is good enough to be included in Hardy
<kwwii> Who_: that is one thing that we should work towards (and it gives us a good reason to tweak some colors) :-)
<lapo> Kver: please don't use the word professional look :-)
<andreasn> mouse theme is pretty tricky, because the mouse pointer is something that should ideally be as invisible as possible
<lapo> it hasno meaning, really :-)
<Kver> UI theme is the toughie, since we can't control how people use it. If we make changes to the GTK+, we should keep everything in the same engine/dimensions
<Who_> steph_: yea, but Hardy will just be a tweak of existing Human, as per what kwwii has been saying, so they only matter on the 10 month plan :)
<kwwii> Kver: right, for this release no major GTK theme engine change
<lapo> tweaking gtk engine means lot of testing
<steph_> see, a few months ago, I tried many, many themes from Gnome-look, mixed them, tried many thinks, and finally I got back to the Human theme which is, finally, a very good theme
<andreasn> ah, found the url again. :) https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/GutsyIconReview?highlight=(icon)
<encompass> kwwii: I agree no new gtk engine
<kwwii> and when we change it we will not rename it, it is just a new version even if there are major changes
<kwwii> ok, let's get to the next item in the agenda
<Kver> Ideally, one thing I think is if we edit anything about the GTK theme, we just make it look cleaner, but keep everything else as-is
<lapo> about the gtk theme I'd say to just do small changes here and there to human or use something existing and known to be working with tweaked colors
<kwwii> [TOPIC] Art direction
<MootBot> New Topic:  Art direction
<steph_> this topic means what do we want to do precisely in our GTK theme ?
<kwwii> before, during and after the holidays I have been working on getting all the pieces in place and signed off so that it really is official
<zniavre> roundness menus ?
<kwwii> steph_: no, this means that we are talking about the art direction for the next releases
<Kver> Down the road.
<Kver> ... I think.
<kwwii> I have a decent list of answers to some very important questions (audience, message, etc)
<kwwii> Kver: right
<thorwil> cool
<Who_> kwwii: Great :)
<kwwii> I have a somewhat decent palette ready which also includes complementary colors
<Kver> Really, any changes we make now, should be considered part of the plan for the next X years.
<Who_> kwwii: What is the structure for the team planned in the new direction?
<kwwii> next week I will be in London again presenting all this information and showing off mockups and finalizing things
<Keybuk> week after next?
<thorwil> kwwii: we don't get to read it / se it before?
<kwwii> Who_: looking at all the great work from the community recently I think that we will be working closesly with all the teams
<steph_> we should go simple & elegant.
<lapo> kwwii: I hope it goes well with tango palette
<kwwii> Keybuk: erm, right...the week after next
<kwwii> lapo: this palette would not be the entire palette for the icon theme
<Keybuk> you can be in London next week if you like ;) but usually you let your line manager know first <g>
<Who_> kwwii: big questions first: is Mark still calling the design shots? If so, how will he be involved along the way. If  not, who is?
 * kwwii likes London so much he wants to spend extra time there
<lapo> kwwii: sure, but I'm saying that I hope it goes well with it
<kwwii> Who_: he and others at canonical are the deciders, most/all info will come through me
<kwwii> but it will still be an open process
 * Kver is jelious; Kver gets to go to "Cold Lake"
<kwwii> Kver: yeah, 3 months of getting up early and jogging - have fun
<encompass> Kver: been to cherry grove :P
<Kver> :P
<Who_> kwwii: so you will regularly report back to find out what direction they like best and guide us in it?
<kwwii> lapo: yeah and we will probably have to tweak things to make that work right
<kwwii> Who_: yes
<kwwii> this ties in well with the theme-team item on the agenda
<Who_> kwwii: Indeed.
<kwwii> let's bring that topic into this one for a moment
<Who_> okie.
<lapo> kwwii: good
<kwwii> I am all for people getting together and working together...it might help spread information and help people help each other to create a complete theme idea
<kwwii> but everyone can still feel free to work in any group form they wish
<Who_> kwwii: I think creating some Theme Teams for this release makes sense. It gives us some experience packaging, and making complete themes not just mockups.
<kwwii> so if two people have a great idea and want to work through it, they are free to do so
<kwwii> Who_: especially when it comes to packaging :-)
<Who_> One of the big benefits I see from it is that we don't need the extra layer of design approval that has caused issues in the past
<kwwii> Who_: how did you find the experience of working in a theme team in the past?
<kwwii> anything we could learn from?
<Who_> Well: 1. I am really glad I did it. I feel it was one of the more productive things I have done as part of this team
<Who_> 2. It was cool to have people using the theme we'd made
<steph_> Who_, sorry, but which theme did you made ?
<kwwii> Who_: yeah, while we get lot's of nice ideas people often find it hard to finalze things on their own
<kwwii> so working in groups will definitely help with that
<Who_> 3. It was difficult to run it truly as a theme team. I had planned that it would be very collaborative. But in the end I ended up calling the design shots. I think that is the way it _needs_ to happen for a complete, cohesive theme
<Who_> steph_ I made hte Blubuntu theme
<steph_> let me find it...
<kwwii> Who_: I think that with the theme team idea there are some people who are better at some things, etc.
<Who_> indeed - Pingunz made the GDM much better than I would have done in Blubuntu :)
<kwwii> that is natural in any art project that one person tends to form the ideas
<steph_> Who_, nice work ;)
<kwwii> looking at the wiki it should not be too hard to get some teams together
<Kver> It almost makes teams that run like miniature Apple design teams, by the sounds of it.
<Who_> kwwii: Well, I think we struggle at the moment to find anyone to be IN a team or to lead them - not many people have stepped up after the email I wrote suggesting it
<kwwii> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Hardy/Alternate is packed with good ideas, I think that if we took a couple of the popular ones and got people together it would be a good start
<Who_> kwwii: great - I agree
<Who_> kwwii: Troy suggest Launchpadding the theme team idea. Shall I do that?
<kwwii> [ACT]
<kwwii> ahhh
<_MMA_> Who_: Ill hop in once a team is formed around a particular concept.
<lapo> kwwii: most of the theme I see there are pretty impossible to do with current gtk, we'd need hackers
<kwwii> [ACTION] kwwii sends email to list to form a couple of theme teams form the exisiting popular artwork
<MootBot> ACTION received:  kwwii sends email to list to form a couple of theme teams form the exisiting popular artwork
<_MMA_> lapo: On that note, who is keeping track of the technical capabilities of say GNOME and Compiz to make sure we are creating things its actually capable of doing?
<kwwii> lapo: this is the long term idea we are looking for, not the specifics or an implemented thing
<Who_> kwwii: Can I suggest that I think it is important that we encourage people to think of themes that aren't hugley like the defualt theme
<steph_> lapo, first they can't be realized, second I don't think they are really good
<kwwii> _MMA_: my colleagues in the desktop team like macslow
<kwwii> I ask him for permission after I make a mockup :-)
<steph_> there are good ideas, but they can't do the next default theme
<Who_> steph_: There's a solution to that ;)
<lapo> steph_: there are some ideas I like
<steph_> yeah, me too
<steph_> well, let's see
<steph_> what do you think about the Union Mockup ?
<steph_> well, not quite the topic, in fact.
<lapo> some elemts are good, but the mockup is pretty generic
<_MMA_> kwwii: Sure so the theme team leaders will need to liaise with MacSlow.
<Kver> It was made to be -very- generic...
<damianvila> Artwork should be in sync with the release's technical constrains, I think
<kwwii> when it comes down to every little thing that we cannot do now we will have to keep in contact with those people, and actually that is part of my job
<lapo> Kver: I mean few gtk widget themed
<lapo> widgets
<Who_> kwwii: in your eyes, are these theme teams aiming for Hardy or Hardy+1?
<kwwii> so much of this information can come through me (but not all of it has to)
<kwwii> Who_: Hardy+1
<_MMA_> Who_: I think it should be up to the team to decide.
<kwwii> there are some very good ideas out there and we need to look at what we can do now, in the short term and what we can do in the long term
<kwwii> but without these ideas down on papaer we cannot get anywhere other than another bad version of where we already were
<Kver> If we look long-term, very much like OSX, we should look at a goal and figure out how to reasonably built to that goal over several releases.
<steph_> kwwii, is there any theme on the Wiki which is looking really good to you ?
<andreasn> I think it would be pretty nice seeing some of those gtk themes implemented, always interesting to see how far you can push gtk
<Who_> kwwii: indeed. When the themeteams were lat run, we were aiming to provide some easy to get alternatives to the default.... It wasn't supposed to be super flashy, it was supposed to be good design with what we had.
<kwwii> steph_: I found interesting ideas in several of them, I'll get to that a bit later
<Who_> kwwii: I also see theme teams as an important way to democratise the art available in Ubuntu - with the default theme _ultimately_ at the behest of canonical, there is a limit to how much a team can contribute.
<steph_> and by the way, working with a team is much more motivating
<Who_> but with community developed themes we can get more contributions _into Ubuntu_ from more people
<kwwii> Who_: yes, if the information flows both ways and is shown to the deciders in the right form and manner
<kwwii> I would really like to see as many community made themes as possible packaged
<kwwii> and I hate to see people get hung up on the default theme
<_MMA_> Who_: Exactly. Once one stops trying to be the default its alot easier to get a theme package into Ubuntu.
 * _MMA_ has even rolled a live disk using Blubuntu. ;)
<Who_> agreed. It feels to me often like the artwork team stumbles because we have so many people working towards _one_ thing that is decided by very few.
<kwwii> there is no one person who decides on the default theme so people should not think like "I made that theme" or "he made that theme" as there are really a lot of people involved with lots and lots of pieces
<kwwii> over a long time, really
<damianvila> But whoever wants to do it's own theme doesn't need to come here to discuss anything, right? He/She just need to build it and show it to the rest...
<Who_> kwwii: so you don't feel that you are limited in what you can realisticly present to canonical?
<kwwii> damianvila: if they prefer to work like that, yes...but without good information and communication it would be hit or miss with ever getting stuff in to the default theme
<kwwii> Who_: oh, I am certainly limited...I am not going to show any crack artwork and push it
<kwwii> but I think that the sky is the limit with good ideas
<Who_> Can I point out, I don't think that the limited control over the default is any failing of the art team, or it's running - it is the way it has to be :)
<Who_> kwwii: cool!
<lapo> kwwii: good ideas are nothing without anyone implementing/working on them tho :-)
<Who_> I notice they were looking for a 'Conceptual Human Interface Designer'  a while back - does that impact us for Hardy +1? Who is it?
<Who_> (they being Canonical)
<_MMA_> kwwii: "if they prefer to work like that, yes...but without good information and communication it would be hit or miss with ever getting stuff in to the default theme" Sure but you have to admit that the "theme team" idea has come from people feeling too restricted by working with the default process.
<Munchkinguy> Speaking of alternate themes, I'd like to point out that art.ubuntu.com doesn't exist anymore.
<kwwii> lapo: good ideas tend to get implemented one way or the other and if we decide that we want to do something I am sure we will work towards it if it is possible
<kwwii> _MMA_: not sure I get you
<lapo> kwwii: yeah, sure that wasn't my point, but no probs
<kwwii> _MMA_: I think it is simply overwhelming for most people to create an entire theme on their own
<steph_> kwwii, hey, what about the art.ubuntu.com  ?
<steph_> didn't you say it'll be back ?
<lapo> steph_: do you feel it is really needed?
<steph_> don't know, never seen how it is
<kwwii> steph_: yes, it should be coming, we are waiting for the code to get through the approval process
<steph_> all right
<Who_> lapo, steph, kwwii: If we are doing theme-teams, something more structured than a wiki would rock
<_MMA_> kwwii: Ill talk later about it.
<Who_> kwwii: does it link in with Launchpad and ease packaging?
<kwwii> _MMA_: ok, cool
<steph_> Who_, +1, cause the Wiki is a little messy I think
<lapo> Who_: tools are usefull, but people is more  important :-)
<kwwii> Who_: yes, it is integrated with launchpad
<kwwii> that is one of the sticking points, I think
<Who_> kwwii: and the packaging? Can you create a 'theme' and it will spit out a package?
<kwwii> I asked around the other day but have no response as yet
<lapo> well packaging a theme should not be a big issue
<Who_> lapo: Indeed. I can't help but feel that we're not failing on the people front though....
<kwwii> Who_: nope, the automaticArtworkBuilder was the only way to come close to doing that
<_MMA_> kwwii: We have been waiting on code approval for what 3 months now? And if you saw the last meeting Mark himself said Canonical has a backup for their sysadmin stuff alone. I think we just drop it for Hardy.
<kwwii> Who_: and people found that to be too limiting and also too complicated .p
<Who_> kwwii: I'm a bit guilty I know nothing of theme packaging. dholbach packaged Blubuntu
<somerville32> I'm available to do any packaging required
<somerville32> Please feel free to hit me up anytime :)
<kwwii> _MMA_: we'll see what we can do and when we can do it...it might be getting too late though, you are right
<kwwii> somerville32 is my new best friend ;-)
<Who_> smoerville32: You know the art packaging dance?
<Who_> somerville32: ^ (mistyped name)
 * _MMA_ notes that ubuntustudio-look is in better shape than example-look atm if anyone needs some reference.
<kwwii> the example look package needs a good doing through
<kwwii> but there is only so much one can do at a time :p
<somerville32> aye :)
<somerville32> Where is the example package located at?
<Who_> many hands make light work :P
<steph_> I've got to go
<steph_> cya all
<jpatrick> kwwii: bug #163599 maybe?
<kwwii> Who_: but almost all of that content has the logos and company stuff all over it
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 163599 in example-content "[PATCH] Corrected kubuntu-leafet.png" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/163599
<_MMA_> somerville32: Talk with TheMuso to shape up example-look as he cleaned up ubuntustudio-look.
 * somerville32 nods.
<Who_> kwwii: which content?
<somerville32> So, is everyone familiar with the changes to how we package artwork for Hardy?
<_MMA_> https://launchpad.net/example-look
<kwwii> erm, I meant the example-content package :p
<kwwii> hehe, oops
<Who_> somerville32: maybe a post to the list on that
<kwwii> the example-look stuff was put together pretty quickly
<kwwii> if anyone wants to have a wack at fixing that package up, feel totally free
<_MMA_> kwwii: somerville32 will do that with TheMuso. ;)
<kwwii> I'm tempted to add that as an action
<somerville32> _MMA_, Maybe file a bug on launchpad and make sure I'm assigned or something?
<_MMA_> Im sure you can handle that. ;)
<kwwii> [ACTION] somerville32 to look into fixing up example-look
<MootBot> ACTION received:  somerville32 to look into fixing up example-look
<somerville32> _MMA_, Developers are lazy beasts. :P
<kwwii> it looks like we made our way through most of the items, one way or another
<kwwii> anyone have anything else to add?
<kwwii> ahhh, right, let's talk about some of the mockups
<somerville32> Yes
<somerville32> Can we remove the topic lock in -artwork ?
<somerville32> and set a sane topic too? :)
<kwwii> somerville32: we can certainly change the topic but I think having it locked is not a bad idea
<kwwii> there are a couple of people who can change it
<somerville32> -devel isn't even topic locked
<kwwii> hrm, I guess I can ask around and get advice and then figure out how to do it
<_MMA_> If anyone wants to look at example-look now can use bzr to do it. bzr branch http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-art-pkg/example-look/dev
<kwwii> my /topic skills end at setting the topic :p
<somerville32> kwwii, You might ask jdub to give you channel ownership
<andreasn> :)
<kwwii> :p
<kwwii> since he is such a good friend
<Who_> just occurred to me. Maybe at the start of the next meeting we can quickly equate our irc names to names on the list - it might help a bit :)
<somerville32> kwwii, are you being sarcastic?
<kwwii> Who_: yeah, i forgot to do that this time, sorry
 * kwwii ? sarcastic? never
<somerville32> lol
 * somerville32 is so confused due to the lack of inherent bandwidth for sarcasm over a text medium
<kwwii> [TOPIC] work in progress
<MootBot> New Topic:  work in progress
<kwwii> looking through the wiki these themes gave me a positive impression:
<kwwii> BasicIdeals, Kerberos, SatinRibbon, SmoothMergedGradients, SzerencsefiaGTKIdea, Union, gelatin,
<andreasn> gelatin is already implemented by some dude, and we should be able to package it without much difficulties
<kwwii> and I kinda liked some of the line ideas in the Fela_Kuti wallpaper
<kwwii> andreasn: killer, do you know who is working on that personally?
<andreasn> well, vdepizzol did the mockup, can't remember the name of the dude who implemented it from the top of my head
<andreasn> but I can look it up
<thorwil> kwwii: i have all links open. shpuld i paste them?
<Who_> Go for it....
<kwwii> thorwil: hehe, I spent all the time cutting the names out of the links
<thorwil> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Hardy/Alternate/BasicIdeals
<thorwil> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Hardy/Alternate/Fela_Kuti
<thorwil> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Hardy/Alternate/Kerberos
<thorwil> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Hardy/Alternate/SmoothMergedGradients
<thorwil> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Hardy/Alternate/SzerencsefiaGTKIdea
<thorwil> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Hardy/Alternate/Union
<thorwil> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Hardy/Alternate/gelatin
<Kver> http://kims-area.com/?q=node/23 (Gelatin theme)
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://kims-area.com/?q=node/23 (Gelatin theme)
<Who_> do we have Murrine i Ubuntu?
<kwwii> ]http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Hardy/Alternate/BasicIdeals
<kwwii> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Hardy/Alternate/Kerberos
<kwwii> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Hardy/Alternate/SatinRibbon
<kwwii> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Hardy/Alternate/SmoothMergedGradients
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Hardy/Alternate/Kerberos
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Hardy/Alternate/SatinRibbon
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Hardy/Alternate/SmoothMergedGradients
<kwwii> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Hardy/Alternate/SzerencsefiaGTKIdea
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Hardy/Alternate/SzerencsefiaGTKIdea
<_MMA_> Who_: Yep.
<kwwii> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Hardy/Alternate/Union
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Hardy/Alternate/Union
<kwwii> now they are properly in the bot thingy and minutes
<thorwil> weird
<Who_> _MMA_: How new? How up to date do the packages stay? (ie, how realistic is it to suggest argb for Hardy+1)
<kwwii> the ideas that I really like are simplified window decoration (no line between windeco and menu) and simplified window buttons
<_MMA_> Who_: Ubuntu Studio got it in for Feisty and have used it since.
<kwwii> I dig the color brown and some of the transparency ideas as well
<_MMA_> Cimi says a update should come from him soon but he was waiting on word from kwwii.
<Kver> I think the smoothness of Szerencsefia is just plain beautiful, if we could implement it with offical colours and a clean GTK we culd have a winner
<Who_> _MMA_: You maintain it?
<kwwii> somehow I do get the feeling that a lot of them use too much saturation when making the window brown though
<_MMA_> Who_: Someone on my team yes. Though others have touched it.
<Who_> I find Szerencsefia too shinny for me
<kwwii> Kver: yeah, that is a good idea to look in to
<Who_> _MMA_: thanks. Not really sure why I asked P
<Who_> hmmm. Union just hit me as 'the GTK Theme that likes fake tan' :P I really like it, but that thought made me chuckle. Perhaps it's a little bit too orange?
<Kver> I'm a big fan of the "slab" window layout, where it looks like one big peice.
<kwwii> Who_: after talking to macslow using alpha in the windows is not a big problem on the longer scale of things
<kwwii> Kver: yeah, me too
<Who_> kwwii: Awesome. If we can do it _tastefully_ then that seems good. On the whole though, I think that it might be something we have to wait for upstream apps to do to do tastefully....
<kwwii> Who_: yeah, and keep the effect down to a minimum, I would guess
<Who_> kver, kwwii: To slabs, me too.
<_MMA_> kwwii: Something that kinda comes into play is the HP needed to do alphas and Compiz and whatever we come up with. Should that be kept in mind when creating?
<Who_> kwwii: exactly - unless it is done on an App level it will be everywhere --> too much
<kwwii> _MMA_: naturally we will still need a fallback for when it is not possible
<_MMA_> kwwii: ie: pixmaps and svg icon themes can be slower but with newier machines this is less of a issue.
<kwwii> another good reason to keep it as simple as possible
<kwwii> crazy effects tend to just get in your way in the long run anyway
<kwwii> you do not just want to look at the computer but also use it
<_MMA_> kwwii: Sure, but how long do we cater to older machines? Kinda slows progress a bit.
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 12 Jan 11:00 UTC: Kubuntu Developers | 16 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting | 17 Jan 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development | 18 Jan 12:00 UTC: MOTU | 23 Jan 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting | 30 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting
<kwwii> although I guess our goal is to get people to just stare at it :p
<Kver> We should have 2 seperate versions of the themes almost, one designed specifically for low-end machenes, one for the bleeding edge almost...
<kwwii> Kver: exactly
<_MMA_> I dont agree.
<Who_> I think a theme that did more if under a compoisited environment but looked very similar normally is ideal
<kwwii> _MMA_: nothing we can do about that until we know that it is working pretty much everywhere
<kwwii> Who_: I agree
<Who_> I think also we _should_ be keeping simple - progress for progress sake is not progress
<kwwii> 2 to 1, Cory loses :p
<Kver> The only middle-gorund is one single GTK, one metacity and one emerald.
<_MMA_> I dont agree with 2 themes I guess is more to the point. But how long do we do that really?
<kwwii> _MMA_: only as long as we have to
<Who_> but surely a theme engine that checked to see if it ran under a composited envirnment and did rounded corners if it was would be ideal?
<Kver> Well, one theme could be either a atriped-down or a built-up version of the other.
<kwwii> we would want to get away from that as soon as possible as it is much more work
<Who_> (obviously, rounded corners is an example :P)
<kwwii> I am guessing it would be a matter of phasing it out
<kwwii> or limiting the updates more and more over time
<Kver> I think square-corners in the GTK would be good. Rounded corners are great and all, but it's one of those "we know we can do it, now let's move on"
<Who_> or just making one theme depend on Compiz or something - then if you don't install compiz you get the old theme, if you do you get the new one?
<kwwii> Who_: yeah, something like that
<Kver> I beleive Cimi said ppa themes would work normally under a non-composited enviornment.
<Who_> Kver: I remember reading that too.
<kwwii> if so, good :-)
<Who_> kwwii: what kind of structure were you thinking of for the development of the Hardy +1 theme?
<Kver> But for the sake of keeping things safe and bug-free, I'm temtped to say go with 2 GTK themes...
<_MMA_> Who_: Compiz is installed and on by default now. I dont think your idea would work.
<Who_> _MMA_: I think you might be right. Perhaps the application to enable compiz could write hit the theme gconf key?
 * _MMA_ just hopes someone tests all this new hotness we're talking about. :P
<damianvila> kwwii: can you arrange a concept from what you like in those mockups and put it in the wiki as a reference? how feasible are those elements you like to be included in Ubuntu Hardy+1?
<kwwii> Who_: I think that once the art direction is clear we start communicating with the theme teams about who to move forward and see what comes of that
<kwwii> eventually we will have a couple of people working on parts of the default theme with direction
<Kver> What about the effects window in all this? It has 4 options for the level of effects, would this be something to consider in the theme design?
<Who_> kwwii: damianvila has a great point: can you make some kind of announcement of what is 'popular' with you and the Canonical guys?
<Kver> Have 4 configurations of the theme based on level of effects?
<_MMA_> kwwii: 1) When will it be clear? :) 2) Why would yo uneed to communicate with the theme teams? I thought the point was to work on themes independent of Ubuntu?
<kwwii> damianvila: yes, I should go through the mockups and highlight parts and ideas
<Who_> Kver: sounds kind of nice :) but a lot of work, potentially - as themes aren't as easily 'deblingable' as compiz is...
<kwwii> I'll have a set of possiblities together any day now (based on one idea that I have been working on), I'll try to explain the desired tidbits there as well
<Kver> Who_: It would mostly be a script that chooses from a small selection of pre-made peices.
<Kver> Like "Light" effects might use a non-ppa GTK but the Emerald frame.
<Who_> Kver: like sucking out bits of gtkrc to make a theme? Or swapping between some complete gtkrcs?
<kwwii> the stuff that I am currently working on is a single window style using varying background colors and elements to show the possibilities of using color
<Who_> kwwii: would you say it is fair to say that ultimately the default theme for Hardy will be designed by you based on submissions?
<Kver> Who_: Just swapping between existing themes, not generating themes on the spot.
<damianvila> kwwii: the palette is the one you sent to the list? (palette.pdf?)
<Who_> Kver: yup. sounds doable. Would probably break when not using Ubuntu's theme?
<kwwii> Who_: not necessarily just by myself but I will have to play a part in order to communicate ideas
<kwwii> damianvila: yes
<damianvila> kwwii: ok
<kwwii> sooooo...if everyone thinks we have covered everything we can call and end to the meeting
<Who_> kwwii: Cool, do you  think perhaps it would be good to make that more clear on the list? It seems to meever other day someone thinks their theme might be the default....
<andreasn> sure, thanks for now
<andreasn> next meeting in a month?
<Who_>  yea, seems done for now
<Kver> Who_: It could either warn the user, or just detect wether the user is using a custom theme.
<kwwii> Who_: I send emails about that again and again (and it is in the wiki, etc) but yes, I could send it again
<Who_> kwwii:  :)
<kwwii> we should point everyone to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/FAQ when possible and get that complete
<Kver> Well, depending on who I run into before I go, I just want to say good luck to everyone I don't see again. :D
<Kver> well, for the next few months, at least.
<kwwii> Kver: dude, thanks so much for the awesome work
<Kver> :P
<kwwii> you are welcome back even if your have no hair ;-)
 * _MMA_ salutes.
<kwwii> Kver: if there is anything else you need or any way I can help, just drop me a note
<Kver> Heh, thanks all!
<Kver> Million dollars in unmarked bills, dropped off at...
<Who_> Kver: nice work, thanks!
<kwwii> nahhh, the government would wonder where you got it all at, it would be more trouble than good
<Who_> kwwii: Make it 1/2 a million then. That seems well withtin government's tolerable corruption levels
<Kver> Mwaha, time for a trip to Mexico!
<kwwii> thanks everyone for taking part in the meeting, they keep getting better and better every time
<kwwii> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 19:45.
<kwwii> boah, 1 3/4 hours
<Kver> Goodbye, MootBot!
<kwwii> I am soo good at talking
<_MMA_> pfftt..
<thorwil> lol
<_MMA_> You just like the sound. :P
<kwwii> I actually talk to my chat client while typing
<_MMA_> haha
<Who_> kwwii: really!?
<zniavre> :o)
<_MMA_> Yeah. Saying how everyone is full of it. :D
<thorwil> kwwii: does he respond?
<kwwii> thorwil: my wife says she can't hear it but I can :p
<Who_> okie. Bye all!
<kwwii> night all, have a nice evening
<kwwii> or day or whatever
<thorwil> bye!
<damianvila> Bye
<Who_> kwwii: let me guess: you're too afraid to tell it to love? (http://xkcd.com/144/)
<kwwii> Who_: exactly
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-01-11
<highvoltage> @schedule
<ubotu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 12 Jan 11:00: Kubuntu Developers | 16 Jan 12:00: Edubuntu meeting | 17 Jan 14:00: Desktop Team Development | 18 Jan 12:00: MOTU | 23 Jan 20:00: Edubuntu meeting | 30 Jan 12:00: Edubuntu meeting
<emgent> @now
<ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: January 11 2008, 20:19:11 - Next meeting: Kubuntu Developers in 14 hours 40 minutes
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-01-12
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Kubuntu Developers Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 16 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting | 17 Jan 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development | 18 Jan 12:00 UTC: MOTU | 23 Jan 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting | 30 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting
<jussi01> thanks jpatrick
<jpatrick> jussi01: no problem
<jussi01> good evening Hobbsee
<Hobbsee> heya1
<jpatrick> right...
<Hobbsee> right.
<jpatrick> here we go
 * Lure just added one topic, so that we have something to discuss ;-)
<jpatrick> Lure: better be the party food..
<Lure> jpatrick: not sure if I want virtual party food ;-)
 * Lure eats some baklava instead ;-)
 * Lure still waits for wiki to accept his change :-(
<jpatrick> Lure: it's there
<jpatrick> Riddell: ping!
<Hobbsee> pong
<Lure> Riddell has party hangover ;-)
<Hobbsee> oh noes, i'ts Keybuk!
<Lure> or better is taking some sleeping overtime to recover ;-)
<nosrednaekim> hey everyone
<jpatrick> so, we start without our leader?
<fdoving> hi.
<jpatrick> vorian: around?
 * vorian waves
<vorian> howdy
<Nightrose> morning :)
<Hobbsee> jpatrick: want to chair?
<emonkey> good morning
<nosrednaekim> its like... 6 here...
<nosrednaekim> uhhg
<jpatrick> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 11:06. The chair is jpatrick.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<Hobbsee> where's our agenda?
<jpatrick> should we do members first?
<jpatrick> [LINK] https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/Meetings
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/Meetings
<Hobbsee> do we have quorum?
<Hobbsee> me, lure....
<jpatrick> Hobbsee: we can mail the log later?
<Lure> nixternal, kwwi, Tonio_, Riddell: ping
 * Hobbsee looks for Riddell's number
<jpatrick> i think it's on his site
 * Nightrose thinks riddell gets some much needed sleep right now
<mhb> I'd start with the topic first and do members once jr arrives (he usually does)
 * Hobbsee sends a sms
<Hobbsee> jpatrick: go for the topic.
<Hobbsee> it'll be cause for more discussion anyway
<Hobbsee> hopefully nixternal will appear, too
<jpatrick> [TOPIC] Kubuntu touch of KDE4 look
<MootBot> New Topic:  Kubuntu touch of KDE4 look
<nosrednaekim> its 5 where he is...I doubt it
<jpatrick> Lure: it's your point :)
<Lure> are there any plans to do any changes to kde4 artwork to make it "kubuntu"-like?
<Lure> I would not like to digress from default look, just add some indication that it is kubuntu
 * jpatrick thinks we need Riddell 
<Lure> suse adds logo to kickoff menu
<Lure> jpatrick: we can still discuss and do not make decision ;-)
<smarter> The K logo at the top right of konq4 look really out of place
<Lure> but it would be good to have Riddell and kwwii
<nosrednaekim> Lure: I think that we generally don't have logos on things.
<Lure> nosrednaekim: I think we need to improve that
<jpatrick> Lure: I think the logo on the kickoff would be good
<Hobbsee> up to now, the idea has been that we distribute a usable, but close version of kde3
<Hobbsee> s/3//
<jpatrick> we had it in KDE3
<Lure> nosrednaekim: we are more and more differentiated towards ubuntu, so we should have some insignia
<Lure> jpatrick: exactly
<mhb> Lure: we should respect the ubuntu branding policy
<Lure> jpatrick: and that level was about right
<Lure> mhb: sure, but this does not prevent us to use kubuntu logos
<Lure> like we already do for usplash
 * Hobbsee notes that ubuntu already has it's own menu logo
<Lure> I would keep K logo on panel, but would be good to differentiate article screenshots by distribution somehow
<Lure> anyway, I do not think we can conclude on this today (ENORIDDELL, ENOKWWII) ;-)
<nosrednaekim> speaking of Kmenu, are we going to use Kickoff? the simple menu is packages and its very nice.
<Lure> nosrednaekim: I would personally not change that
<nosrednaekim> :(
<Lure> I had problems at first (getting used to), but now I even use it instead of katapult
<Lure> just search and execute
<mhb> Lure: doesn't it launch google when nothing is found?
 * Nightrose thinks it is horrible to use on a laptop with touchpad
<Nightrose> but on my desktop it is nice
<Hobbsee> erk, the new kmenu.
<Nightrose> and I had to make it show more items to make it usable for me
<Nightrose> 15 now here
<nosrednaekim> in any case, I think it would be nice to be able to right clickon it like regular kickoff and select the old style menu.
<jpatrick> Lure: how does suse put their logo in?
<Lure> jpatrick: below icons
<jpatrick> i was thinking maybe up the righthand side :)
<fdoving> i like the new kickoff, it's pretty much quicker to find things once you get used to it, and i use a laptop with touchpad/point.
<mikkael> 12 entries is max @ the new menu i think
<Lure> mikkael: no, you can configure it
 * Lure uses 15
<Nightrose> Lure: hehe /me too
<Lure> jpatrick: I would preffer that (similar to kde3)
<fdoving> i use 10, but the default should also fit nicely in atleast a 1024x768 resolution.
<Lure> jpatrick: I like that icons are near the K icon
<mikkael> im on 1024*768 and i cant get it bigger than 12..
<jpatrick> right-hand side after the arrows :)
<fdoving> mikkael: right, so the default 10 is probably sane.
<Lure> mikkael: ups, this is really little - I am probably not representative as I like small (8-9pt) fonts on 1920x1200 screen
<jpatrick> morgen allee
<fdoving> hi allee.
<Hobbsee> guten tag allee!  Wie gehts?
<jpatrick> shall we intrograte vorian now?
<allee> hi together
<allee> Hobbsee: hallo dein deutsch wird von meeting to meeting immer besser!
<jpatrick> allee: eben wann es "geht's" ist? :)
<Hobbsee> jpatrick: +1, we'll send the rest by mail
<Hobbsee> allee: haha :)
<jpatrick> ok, should we discuss having a #kubunt-kde4?
 * Tonio_ is sorry for beeing that late....
<jussi01> yes!
<jpatrick> #kubuntu-kde4 channel?
<Lure> jpatrick: why do we need separate channel
<jpatrick> Lure: ton of users asking
 * Lure has problems following too many channels already ;-)
<nosrednaekim> no, don't do that. However, it is awfully crazy now that there are two versions of kde people can be talking about
<jpatrick> [TOPIC] Possiblity of a #kubuntu-kde4 channel
<MootBot> New Topic:  Possiblity of a #kubuntu-kde4 channel
<Lure> I do not hang out much in #kubuntu, but if it would help in support, it may probably work
<jussi01> I feel #kubuntu is becoming inundated with kde4 questions, shutting out kde3 users
<vorian> i think it's a good idea to have a separate channel.
<Lure> I am fine if kubuntu ops in the #kubuntu channel make that decision
<mikkael> fdoving: i took screenshots of the new k-menu's default size (10 entries) and one with the max entries (i said 30, but its 12) on 1024*768, if you want to have a look..?
<fdoving> i am fine with kde4 questions in #kubuntu.
<Riddell> gah
<Hobbsee> Rif
<fdoving> mikkael: sure. i can have a look. i use 10 myself, on 1440x900.
<Hobbsee> Riddell: finally :)
<Lure> Riddell: welcome recovery ;-)
<mikkael> fdoving: do you know a place where i can post ?
<jussi01> hi Riddell :)
<jpatrick> wb Riddell
<Riddell> what did I miss?
<allee> fdoving: I'm not in #kubuntu, so I can just if KDE4 question really 'shutting out kde3 users'.   If yes,   -kde4 may make sense until 4.1 when everything is rock solid in 4 land
<fdoving> mikkael: http://imageshack.us/
<Nightrose> Riddell: short discussion on kickoff and kubuntu branking in kde4
<fdoving> allee: its not like we answer kde3 questions only, it's about vsftpd, ssh, apache, mysql.
<jpatrick> Riddell: Kubuntu kde4 artwork on kickoff and now we're on #kubuntu-kde4
<Nightrose> and now #kubuntu-kde4 or not
<fdoving> among other things.
<allee> fdoving: of course ;)
<jpatrick> ok, should vote on the channel thingy?
<Lure> Riddell, Tonio_: http://pastebin.com/m78ef6fe3
 * allee +1 only if KDE4 question make > 80 % of traffic in #kubuntu for a longer time
<jussi01> +1 on #kubuntu-kde4 from me.
<Tonio_> Lure: checking
<jpatrick> [VOTE] #kubuntu-kde4
<MootBot> Please vote on:  #kubuntu-kde4.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<fdoving> -1 on another special channel from me.
<MootBot> -1 received from fdoving. 0 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -1
 * allee doubt that's true.  So -1 ;)
<jussi01> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from jussi01. 1 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 0
<mikkael> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from mikkael. 2 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<jpatrick> evil bot
<nosrednaekim> -1
<MootBot> -1 received from nosrednaekim. 2 for, 2 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 0
<Lure> +0, as I think it is a decision that irc operators/supporters should made based on experience
<Riddell> -1 too many irc channels already
<MootBot> -1 received from Riddell. 2 for, 3 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -1
<nosrednaekim> not a member ...but I don't like it.
<Tonio_> -1 for me too
<MootBot> -1 received from Tonio_. 2 for, 4 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -2
<Hobbsee> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from Hobbsee. 3 for, 4 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -1
<nosrednaekim> And I think I spend enough time in there that I should be able to vote :)
<jpatrick> +1 but I'm on the too many channels
<MootBot> +1 received from jpatrick. 4 for, 4 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 0
<Lure> good, decided ;-)
<jpatrick> #endvote
<fdoving> allee: the bot didn't register your /me thing.
<mikkael> max size: http://img142.imageshack.us/my.php?image=12zi9.png default: http://img145.imageshack.us/my.php?image=10dq6.png. but 12 is still not enough for me so im back on the traditional menu
<jpatrick> so... vorian up next?
<Riddell> vorian: here?
<vorian> yep
<fdoving> mikkael: i'm sure you can get more if you put the menu on the panel.
<vorian> hello
<jpatrick> [TOPIC] Steve Stalcup's membership
<MootBot> Vote is in progress. Finishing now.
<MootBot> Final result is 4 for, 4 against. 0 abstained. Total: 0
<MootBot> New Topic:  Steve Stalcup's membership
<vorian> Hello,  I am Steve and I am a Kubuntu-a-holic.  (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StephenStalcup)(https://launchpad.net/~vorian)
<vorian> I stepped down as the TL for my LoCo team so they could start a council.  This has allowed me to focus more on helping out with QA etc, and really dig in and learn maintaining.
<vorian> and more specifically helping out Kubuntu
<mikkael> fdoving: nope, maybe my resolution limits it
<Lure> vorian: I see you are ubuntu member already, so what is the reason for applying for kubuntu membership too? just recognition?
<allee> fdoving: that's fine.  I've /me +1 and -1 and I'm never in #kubuntu.  So  0 from me is fair
<vorian> Lure, just want to be part of the team :)
<Hobbsee> vorian: why, though?
<Lure> vorian: ok, so what were the kubuntu-specific that you were doing in past months?
<jpatrick> vorian has been busy with packages :)
<vorian> packaging, bug triage
<Riddell> you know I don't think I've seen your package of kdetorrent-kde4
<Riddell> nixternal never did upload it
<vorian> https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ktorrent-kde4
<vorian> there it is
<vorian> also kmldonkey
<vorian> https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/kmldonkey-kde4
<Riddell> ooh, good, my mistake
<vorian> :)
<Lure> since vorian is ubuntu-member already, I am fine giving +1 based on these two contributions already (as he had for sure had others ubuntu contributions before)
<Riddell> vorian: do you plan to go for MOTU at some point?
<vorian> Riddell: that is my hope
<Riddell> vorian: are you a recent convert to kubuntu or have you always used kde?
<Hobbsee> fine by me, seems strange to go for kubuntu after though
<vorian> thanks Lure
<vorian> Riddell: nixternal got me using kde about 4 months ago
<Riddell> he can be a persuasive chap
<vorian> lol
<Tonio_> hehe
<Riddell> +1 from me for helping with the 4.0 packaging
<Tonio_> +1 for me too
<Riddell> Hobbsee: was that a +1?
<Riddell> well we're at quorum anyway, welcome to kubuntu membership vorian
<vorian> thanks Lure, Hobbsee, Tonio_, and Riddell :)
<vorian> :)
<jussi01> congrats vorian
<Hobbsee> Riddell: yes
<jpatrick> vorian: congrats
<Riddell> any other memberships?
<vorian> thanks :)
<Lure> welcome vorian - and hope to see more contributions from you in future
<allee> vorian: congrats from me too!
<Riddell> any other business?
 * nosrednaekim thinks that maybe he'll go for membership next time
<vorian> thanks allee :)
<allee> and welcome in the wonderful world of KDE4 ;)
<vorian> Lure: you can count on it :)
<Lure> Riddell: what is your opinion about adding kubuntu insignia to kde4?
<Lure> Riddell: we discussed kickoff menu
<Riddell> Lure: I notice opensuse add their logo to the kickoff menu, someone could hunt out that patch
<Tonio_> Riddell: can do
<Riddell> thanks Tonio_
<Lure> Riddell: I am only not sure I like suse solution
<Tonio_> Riddell: no pb
<Lure> I would preffer side logo, like in kde3
<Tonio_> Lure: +1, I really hate kickoff
<Lure> Tonio_: I am not suggesting to use simple menu, just side logo in kickoff ;-)
<jpatrick> Riddell: I thought you loved it
<nosrednaekim> Tonio_: yeah, I was happy when I discovered the simple menu :)
<jpatrick> Tonio_: *
 * Lure got used to kickoff (much faster than kde3 version)
<Tonio_> Riddell: patch will be done tomorow probably
<Tonio_> Lure: I understood tat, I just wanted to troll a bit about the long debated kickoff menu hehe :)
<Lure> Tonio_: ;-)
<nosrednaekim> another thing I wanted to mention was hte whole kdesu problem in kde4
<Tonio_> Riddell: what's the cycle for importing .pot files in rosetta ?
<Riddell> there should be sudo support in kdesu so I think that's just a case of finding the argument for cmake in kdebase
<nosrednaekim> will symbolic linking the kde4 kdesu to kdesudo work?
<Tonio_> Riddell: we need to blog a bit for translators to spend some time on guidance, now all strings are in the pot
<Tonio_> Riddell: woot ! real sudo support ? that's nice :)
<Riddell> Tonio_: ask carlos, but message freeze isn't for a while
<Riddell> Tonio_: no, just same as in kde 3.  a kde 4 port of kdesudo would be best
<Tonio_> Riddell: okay, I currently try to improve my c++ knownledge to clean up the code, but yeah, porting kdesudo to kde4 shouldn't be that hard, the code is very simple...
<Tonio_> Riddell: would be nice to have for hardy or can that wait for hardy +1 ?
<nosrednaekim> Riddell: ah ok, because that is the major complaint right now. but i'm glad it can be easily fixed.
<Tonio_> Riddell: I have other priorities and as you know I prefer to spend my time on kde3 atm, that's why I didn't do much on the kde4 side... everybody seems to forget about kde3 ;)
<Tonio_> kde3 dialog boxes have to  be fixed or example... lots of things like that
<Lure> Tonio_: kde3 is so '90s since yesterday ;-)
<nosrednaekim> :)
<Tonio_> Lure: but still our default DM, and for a while
<Tonio_> I don't consider kde4 a desktop manager atm, more like a framework
<Lure> Tonio_: sure, I plan to have it on my work laptop as backup for some time
<allee> Tonio_: I, well at least my user, will stay with kde 3 for hardy
<Tonio_> allee: of course, kde4.0 is just the base, so many things missing to be considered a consistent desktop manager
 * Lure is looking forward kdepim-enterprise to get into 3.5.9
<Tonio_> that's why I'd appreciate people here to still help on the kde3 side
<Tonio_> nobody even noticed ark was broken for month for example...
<allee> that would be great Lure ;)
<Tonio_> also I have to finish that kio-apt thing....
<Lure> allee: it is planned and I do not see any showstopper
<Lure> allee: they plan to merge by end of month, afair
<Tonio_> 6 month late compared to ubuntu is enough, I don't want to miss too many functionnalities
<Tonio_> appart from that, if the meeting is considered over, who will be at fosdem this year ?
<Tonio_> I got confirmation my company is sending me there ;)
<Tonio_> Lure, allee ? :)
<Riddell> I should be
<Tonio_> Riddell: great !
 * Nightrose will be
<Nightrose> apachelogger as well
<Tonio_> Riddell: other ubuntu guys like dholbach, siretart or so should to what you know ?
<Tonio_> Nightrose: great, we should eventually discuss on a plan to all meet there
<allee> Tonio_: I'll think about it.
<Tonio_> allee: super
<Riddell> Tonio_: I've no idea, start a wiki page and ask people to add their details
<Tonio_> Riddell: sure
<Nightrose> Tonio_: well Riddell, apachelogger, a few others and I stay in the same hotel so just trop by ;-)
<allee> great idea
<Nightrose> *drop
<allee> Nightrose: mention the hotel in the wiki page ;)
<Tonio_> Riddell: will do, but only tomorrow, I have to go all the day as I'm buying a new car....
<Tonio_> allee: dunno what my hotel will be atm, my company decides.... as they will pay for everything, that makes sense :)
<jpatrick> Tonio_: no way I'm going :(
<Tonio_> jpatrick: :'(
<jpatrick> unless the school colapses
<Nightrose> oh and pkern (motu) will be around as well
<Lure> Tonio_: probably not (no time)
<jpatrick> so meeting over?
<Riddell> I think so
<Riddell> thanks all
<Riddell> sorry I was late
<jpatrick> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 12:13.
<Tonio_> Lure: oki :(
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 16 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting | 17 Jan 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development | 18 Jan 12:00 UTC: MOTU | 23 Jan 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting | 30 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-01-13
<emgent> @now
<ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: January 13 2008, 00:33:21 - Next meeting: Edubuntu meeting in 3 days
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-01-05
<mib_4j6wo7no> jojoo
<[NikO]> hi there
<markvandenborre> hi
<Seveas> hey
<[NikO]> @schedule
<ubottu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 05 Jan 20:00: EMEA Membership | 06 Jan 16:00: Server Team | 06 Jan 17:00: Kernel Team | 06 Jan 21:00: Community Council | 07 Jan 03:00: America's Council | 07 Jan 16:00: Foundation Team
<nizarus> @schedule tunis
<ubottu> Schedule for Africa/Tunis: 05 Jan 21:00: EMEA Membership | 06 Jan 17:00: Server Team | 06 Jan 18:00: Kernel Team | 06 Jan 22:00: Community Council | 07 Jan 04:00: America's Council | 07 Jan 17:00: Foundation Team
<McPeter> hi there
<markvandenborre> McPeter: hi... (8pm UTC == 9pm for most of EU)
<McPeter> ah ok .. thanks :)
<MichaelGodawski> McPeter, also for ubuntu membership tonight ?
<MichaelGodawski> :=)
<McPeter> yes
<MichaelGodawski> me too :) nervous?
<McPeter> no :)
<MichaelGodawski> good
<MichaelGodawski> :)
<mr_dxter> I am also applying for membership... :)
<MichaelGodawski> hey mr_dxter good luck to us all :)
<mr_dxter> yeah... same to you ;)
<MichaelGodawski> I hope we get through... last time (many months ago) I waited 3 hours ...
<mr_dxter> WTF!?
<MichaelGodawski> there were many applicants and I was one of the last ones
<mr_dxter> holy shit... :P
<markvandenborre> many moons ago, the system was different
<markvandenborre> don't worry
<MichaelGodawski> but the method changed
<MichaelGodawski> yes markvandenborre thats right
<mr_dxter> yeah... i can imagine why... ;)
<MichaelGodawski> it was discussed on that very meeting when I waited so long
<MichaelGodawski> :=)
<mr_dxter> Anyone else from Sweden by the way?
<mr_dxter> i guess not :P
<mr_dxter> so how does this work, the board go through each applying member one by one?
<[NikO]> apply is not automatic
<mr_dxter> i know ;) but do they go through each member one by one according to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/EMEA ?
<[NikO]> yes
<mr_dxter> cool.. thanks NikO :)
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: EMEA Membership Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 06 Jan 16:00: Server Team | 06 Jan 17:00: Kernel Team | 06 Jan 21:00: Community Council | 07 Jan 03:00: America's Council | 07 Jan 16:00: Foundation Team
<mr_dxter> so the meeting has started now? ;)
<[NikO]> or not, depends if there is EMEA 'admin'
<drubin> it is still early
<mr_dxter> yeah i know, but the toptic changed to "Current meeting:..." so i guess that the meeting had aldready started :)
 * stgraber waves
 * forumsmatthew waves back
<stgraber> I'm at work so I'll try to vote on as many candidate as I can but I can't promise I'll be able to do so for everybody
<forumsmatthew> fair enough
<[NikO]> anyway, happy new year all :)
<forumsmatthew> happy new year
<theseinfeld> Happy New Year...
<MichaelGodawski> thx [NikO]
<MichaelGodawski> :)
<mr_dxter> same back to all you guys! :)
<mr_dxter> i noticed that is 9 o clock... has the meeting "officially" started yet? :P
<forumsmatthew> let's see who is here from the approval board... me, stgraber... anyone else here yet?
<[NikO]> o/
<McPeter> :)
<forumsmatthew> PriceChild, Seveas : you guys at your keyboards?
<Seveas> here
<Seveas> markvandenborre, poke
<forumsmatthew> anyone heard from popey?
<PriceChild> Hey
<markvandenborre> ah, here I am again
<forumsmatthew> that's almost all of us, shall we get going?
<forumsmatthew> long list today
<Seveas> nothing from popey or phanatic. Were the available today?
<mr_dxter> (Y)
<forumsmatthew> phanatic sent an email saying he probably won't make it
<Seveas> k
<Seveas> ok, let's start. If popey arrives later he can catch up
<forumsmatthew> agreed
<markvandenborre> fine with me
<Seveas> the first four on the list are not here.
<mr_dxter> i am here
<Seveas> mr_dxter, ah, you should have put your real nickname on there
<mr_dxter> i know, but dxter was allready occupied :(
<Seveas> mr_dxter, ok, you're up first. Please introduce yourself in a few lines
<Seveas> other candidates: please prepare a 3-line introduction in a text editor which you can paste when it's your turn
<Seveas> council members: shall we remove schakenberg, Richard Verwayen and amitk from the list? The haven't shown up since adding themselves to the list
<forumsmatthew> Seveas, yeah, probably
<PriceChild> sure
<mr_dxter> Well, i am a Swedish Ubuntu enthusiast that has a buring passion for IT and past the last years, also open source and the community around it. I work as a IT consultant and i work primary with enterprise Windows and Ubuntu enviroments around the world focusing on central management and automated deployments.
<forumsmatthew> I'm reading through the wiki/launchpad links now
<Seveas> I'm going for -1. Your wikipage does not list any contributions you have made to Ubuntu
<forumsmatthew> I'm going to have to agree for now. I see a lot of excitement, but not a lot of activity (yet...).
<mr_dxter> ok... my IRL and online contributions are not enough? :(
<Seveas> mr_dxter, Ubuntu membership is based on a significant and sustained contribution to ubuntu and/or its community. To apply for membership, you must have made and documented this contribution. I'm not saying you're not doing anything but we can't see any of it on your wiki
<PriceChild> Is there anybody that can cheer for your "active team participation" in those 4 teams? I see you joined several teams on launchpad at the same time.
<forumsmatthew> I think you have great potential, and I definitely want you around't see anything, but I don
<forumsmatthew> don't see any evidence of your activity
<mr_dxter> i respect that
<Seveas> PriceChild, with a karma of one I doubt that
<PriceChild> Yeah... and joining several at the same time, two months ago... :/
<mr_dxter> Karma is not everything... i didnt get any karma for all the hours i have spent with the Landscape team...
<forumsmatthew> I'm -1, and hopeful that you can come back in six months or so with some activity and a few other people to vouch for you
<Seveas> mr_dxter, landscape is a canonical project. Has nothing to do with the Ubuntu community
<forumsmatthew> so we have something to base membership on.
<mr_dxter> ok
<mr_dxter> i understand
<mr_dxter> sorry
<markvandenborre> yeah, /me too would rather have you gather some more evidence of activities... but please don't let that put you off!
<Seveas> PriceChild, markvandenborre, stgraber: a vote please (or further comments)
<PriceChild> -1
<stgraber> sorry, just came back. Looking at the above and the comments that were done, I'm going to follow with a -1 on this one. Please come back later when you have documented your contributions.
<mr_dxter> i will.. thank you for your time :)
<forumsmatthew> I look forward to seeing you again later
<mr_dxter> me to, thanks :)
<Seveas> mr_dxter, sorry to disappoint, and hopefully see you sson
<Seveas> [NikO], you're up
<[NikO]> I'm Nicolas Coevoet, i'm irc Admin/Operator on #ubuntu-fr* channels for years (4/5) now
<[NikO]> I provide help, support and i do use a lof of my time to keep channels friendly, usefull and 'convivial'
<[NikO]> i also maintain uBOTu-fr https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-fr/ubuntu-bots/ubotufr a supybot derivated which help user and moderator on #ubuntu-fr #ubuntu-es and at a moment #ubuntu-eu channels
<Seveas> [NikO], are there any other #ubuntu-fr ops or the channel owner here to cheer for you?
<[NikO]> i think Zic McPeter
<[NikO]> perhaps some others, but lot of them use wiki testimonials
<McPeter> :)
<legreffier> hey
<Seveas> I see the wiki testimonials, that's great
<Seveas> and I'm leaning towards +1, but some cheers in here would help
<forumsmatthew> The testimonials are quite good
<Seveas> when did you start contributing to #ubuntu-fr and when did you start ubotu-fr?
<popey> apologies
<Zic> yes
<Seveas> hey popey
<popey> hi
<forumsmatthew> yay popey is here!
<Zic> my apologies, I'm late
<[NikO]> i start helping in #ubuntu-fr 4 years ago
<legreffier> mine too
<legreffier> i didn'got the mail
<[NikO]> and host the first/only bot on #ubuntu-fr* channel at the same times
<Seveas> popey, (dxter has been 'handled', now on [NikO])
<popey> thanks
<Seveas> <[NikO]> I'm Nicolas Coevoet, i'm irc Admin/Operator on #ubuntu-fr* channels for years (4/5) now
<Seveas> <[NikO]> I provide help, support and i do use a lof of my time to keep channels friendly, usefull and 'convivial'
<Seveas> <[NikO]> i also maintain uBOTu-fr https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-fr/ubuntu-bots/ubotufr a supybot derivated which help user and moderator on #ubuntu-fr #ubuntu-es and at a moment #ubuntu-eu channels
<McPeter> mine too
<Seveas> +1, 4 years of help on irc and excellent testimonials
<PriceChild> I think [NikO] has always been great when I've interacted with him about #ubuntu-fr. Any big plans?
<markvandenborre> +1
<Zic> [NikO]: is one of the main operators on #ubuntu-fr* channels, his work contribute to moderation and virtual animation (principally with help)
<forumsmatthew> +1 from me
<stgraber> +
<Zic> so, +1
<legreffier> I +1 too because i <3 [NikO]
<[NikO]> davromaniak, any report about my work on #ubuntu-fr* :)
<popey> +1 based on those testimonials
<Seveas> PriceChild, can I consider your last statement to be a +1?
<legreffier> he's (almost) always happy and the bot is great
<PriceChild> Yep, +1.
<legreffier> and he kicks ass :D
<Seveas> ok, congrats [NikO] and welcome aboard!
<forumsmatthew> congratulations!
<[NikO]> thanks a lot all :)
<davromaniak> +1 for [NikO], he's a great member, his bot is great, law prohibits human cloning, and it's a shame, :)
<PriceChild> dearie me what a cheer...
<Seveas> McPeter, you're next on the list
<[NikO]> lol davromaniak :)
<Seveas> also good testimonials
<McPeter> hi
<McPeter> I'm Pierre Pavard, i'm irc Admin/Operator on #ubuntu-fr* channels for 3 years now. I make different tutorial on doc.ubuntu-fr.org and maintain .i help a lot in next version of ubuntu-fr.org portal, with css/xhtml/php strict compilant
<McPeter> i also provide pastebin for ubuntu-fr user and wiki backup in case of ubuntu-eu failure
<Seveas> McPeter, can you link us to some wikipages you're particularly proud of?
<McPeter> on fr wiki
<forumsmatthew> pas de problem
<Seveas> some of us do understand french :)
<McPeter> http://doc.ubuntu-fr.org/tutoriel/lamp_repertoires_de_travail
<forumsmatthew> only enough to get in trouble in Paris
<McPeter> http://doc.ubuntu-fr.org/lamp <-- at the end
<popey> :)
<[NikO]> McPeter, do a lot of help, step by step, i spend a lot of time for that on main #ubuntu-fr channel
 * stgraber is looking
<McPeter> screencast to install easy lamp
<Seveas> screencasts ftw
<McPeter> http://doc.ubuntu-fr.org/lightscribe
<Zic> McPeter is, like [NikO], one of the main operators of #ubuntu-fr channels, and he wrote somes tutorials about LAMP server, PulseAudio's problem and fixing, and he develop somes tool on ubuntu-fr-secours.org (paste, sourceslist generator, screencasts...)
<[NikO]> he also provide with #ubuntu-fr-devweb team a lot of work for drupal integration, css themes
<popey> \o/ screencasts#
<Seveas> long contribution to irc, good contributions to doc and to webteam. +1 here
<Zic> he also works on the ubuntu-fr.org's Drupal
<forumsmatthew> agreed. +1
<popey> +1 here too
<markvandenborre> +1
<markvandenborre> watching the video right now
<PriceChild> I'm going to +1 along with the great cheers.
<Seveas> stgraber, ?
<legreffier> the only guy that can save the ubuntu-fr world , from mIRC. +1 indeed :)
<McPeter> mIRC ? oO
<McPeter> legreffier, rhoo :)
<legreffier> :P
<stgraber> looks good
<stgraber> +
<forumsmatthew> congratulations!
<stgraber> +1 even
<popey> these french.. they're quite... passionate! :)
<markvandenborre> McPeter: bleh, nano
<Seveas> congrats McPeter
<markvandenborre> nano is for wussies! :p
<Seveas> welcome to the club
<davromaniak> dd rocks, :D
 * forumsmatthew likes nano and must be a wuss  :)
<markvandenborre> no, really, welcome to the club, congratulations
<McPeter> many thanks all :)
<Seveas> MichaelGodawski, you're up
<legreffier> \o/
<MichaelGodawski> My name is Michael Godwski. I am 23 years old. I am studying history of art and sociology. Not the usual âgeekâ, as you can see from my studies. Using Ubuntu since the 7.04 release and am in the Beginner Team and Unanswered Post Team since the 7.10 release. Recently I am also active in the Education Focus Group, writing courses and holding classes. However the most hours I spend on the forums helping new users and
<MichaelGodawski> writing tutorials on my Ubuntu Website.
<Zic> (g'night everyone)
<Seveas> MichaelGodawski, why are you writing tutorials on your website and not on the wiki?
<MichaelGodawski> some are written extra easy for beginners, also I write them when I work on the Absolute Beginner Talk, to document the best solutions
<Seveas> I see no reason not to have that on the wiki or help.ubuntu.com, would be very useful :)
<popey> having looked at a few of them, they're very nicely written tutorials
<MichaelGodawski> if you think that I can easily move them to the wiki no problem :)
<markvandenborre> I'm a bit confused... you say you're in the beginners team since 7.10
<markvandenborre> but the launchpad page says 2008/11/28
<MichaelGodawski> yep, I am responsible for the confusion
<PriceChild> Was there any reason for creating your own website in the first place?
<Seveas> markvandenborre, the ubuntuforums beginners team perhaps?
<MichaelGodawski> slow one after the other :)
<popey> it is explained on his wiki page
<MichaelGodawski> i had to do a break... my former nick was janquark, it is also stated on my wiki
<Seveas> ah right
<MichaelGodawski> PriceChild, I thought my tutorials were not good enough for the official wiki
<popey> they are MichaelGodawski in my opinion
<Seveas> forumsmatthew, can you say anything about MichaelGodawski's contributions to the forums?
<MichaelGodawski> but I wanted to link to them if needed, thx popey
<markvandenborre> sorry, overlooked it
<PriceChild> But that's what is great about a wiki, even if you don't think its the best it could be, you can put your stuff on there and work with others to make it better.
<forumsmatthew> I feel good about the tuts, the application in general, and am +1
<forumsmatthew> He has a lot of posts in the forums helping people
<forumsmatthew> and I know the people leaving the testimonials
<Seveas> good to know, as I don't know them :)
<Seveas> +1 from me
<popey> MichaelGodawski: i will happily help you migrate them to the wiki
 * Joeb454 is here to give "cheers" for MichaelGodawski too :)
<stgraber> +1
<markvandenborre> I feel a bit mixed about keeping this stuff outside the channel
<PriceChild> MichaelGodawski: from your website: "By using Ubuntu you also accept to act according to the Ubuntu Code of Conduct" - I don't think that's quite true.
<popey> PriceChild: its an interpretation :)
<MichaelGodawski> it should be :)
<popey> :)
 * drubin is also here for MichaelGodawski
<popey> I am going to +1 because I believe he has made a sustained contribution to ubuntu both on the forums and in the form of tutorials (wherever they are hosted)
<PriceChild> The CoC says "be nice", everyone should follow it regardless of whether they use Ubuntu or not imo. But its not a requirement.
<MichaelGodawski> PriceChild, I can change this sentence :) accordingly to your suggestions
<Seveas> popey, yeah, the location of a contribution shouldn't really be relevant. It's good to have discussed it though, we may see more good wikicontent soon now ;)
 * forestpixie is here for him too
<markvandenborre> I tend to +1, just please try to integrate your stuff with the rest of the docs
<MichaelGodawski> sure markvandenborre
<popey> MichaelGodawski: mail me alanpope@ubuntu.com and I'll help you migrate content to the wiki if you need it
<Seveas> PriceChild, your vote please
<MichaelGodawski> will do popey
<Seveas> PriceChild, ?
<PriceChild> I'm going to give a -1 on this. I do hope you move your work onto the wiki and would like to see that the best it could be.
<Seveas> PriceChild, any particular reason for the -1?
<Seveas> just the location of the docs, or other reasons?
<PriceChild> The location of the docs mainly.
<Seveas> k
<MichaelGodawski> sure PriceChild and thx for your opinion
<PriceChild> But congratulations I think :)
<Seveas> that makes it a 5/1 split decision, so you still made it
<forumsmatthew> congratulations!
<Seveas> congratulations and welcome to the team!
<MichaelGodawski> thx to all :)
<popey> well done MichaelGodawski, make sure you mail me to keep PriceChild happy :)
<Joeb454> 'grats MichaelGodawski
<PriceChild> :P
<Seveas> theseinfeld, you're up
<MichaelGodawski> thx all
<theseinfeld> ok
<theseinfeld> Hi all!
<theseinfeld> Linux user since 1994, Debian and then Ubuntu user since breezy...
<theseinfeld> Senior Software Architect in Elektrobit, Special Terminals & Solutions dealing with Linux for Moblin and done some Ubuntu mobile contributions as well.
<theseinfeld> Also, I have been active within ubuntu on various projects as well on the bug reporting, forums, wikis but mostly on the free open source community. I am also member of the Ubuntu-Ro and FOSS of Finland.
<theseinfeld> those are my three lines
<Seveas> -1. The main contributions you list on your wikipage are in packaging of packages I don't think I can judge well. Maybe the MOTU route is a better route to membership for you https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU
<theseinfeld> Other than this, I am also Assistant Professor, and used Ubuntu in my classes, so, I guess that will count as advotating...
<popey> some interesting teams you're a member of there theseinfeld :S
<Seveas> theseinfeld, while we appreciate advocacy, it's also very hard to judge without some sort of evidence (photos, reports)
<theseinfeld> Hmm, that is one work I did and I am still doing...
<forumsmatthew> I'm going to have to -1 for the same reasons as Seveas for now...I would like to see more evidence
<PriceChild> I agree with Seveas.
<forumsmatthew> Sorry, all. I have to go. My son just woke up and needs me
<Seveas> forumsmatthew, ok, see you next time! Thanks for being here
<PriceChild> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopers gives information about the membership route for developers (ubuntu contributing developers)
 * popey stops rattling the cot
<theseinfeld> Seveas, that is true. I cannot give you internal access to laboratory documents though :(
<PriceChild> (I have 15 minutes)
<theseinfeld> beside that, I did contribute to some documents, help in the IRC, bugs, etc.
<popey> I have to agree with Seveas, it's difficult to gauge developer contributions for me. I would recommend the MOTU route also.
<markvandenborre> is there anyone around to cheer for you
<Seveas> theseinfeld, then you should document that on your wikipage. We cannot guess that :)
<theseinfeld> cprov, adiroiban for ubutu-ro
<theseinfeld> I know couple of other guys, like crazybyte, DoruHush, elkbuntu, lool, ogra, persia
<cprov> right, I did work and with Peter on the artoolkit debianization and I think he has valuable knowledge on that area (augmented reality / video applications)
<theseinfeld> perhaps even popey might remember me from some revu things one year ago...
 * popey has never done any revu stuff :S
<popey> unless it was when I was dreaming of course
<Seveas> theseinfeld, then please document all these things on your wikipage, or use the MOTU route to membership if your main focus is packaging
<theseinfeld> perhaps I confuse you with another name, sorry...
<popey> np
<theseinfeld> Seveas, the MOTU was for one package, a library that I am developer (libdc1394) that was lagging behind
<Seveas> markvandenborre, stgraber: can I have a vote please?
<theseinfeld> I am not sure if I will go more than couple of packages that I help
<theseinfeld> I have done some work on the libdc1394 packaging that went back to debian (my work0
<stgraber> Seveas: -1 based on the above comments
<markvandenborre> +- ... 0 ... would rather see you go the MOTU way
<theseinfeld> than later to ubuntu
<markvandenborre> and document stuff better
<Seveas> theseinfeld, I'm afraid that the lack of documentation made us say no today, but please document all your contribution and gather some cheers from other people on your wikipage and you could be accepted next time
<theseinfeld> sure
<theseinfeld> thanks for your time
<markvandenborre> I'm a bit torn here...
<popey> or go the MOTU route :)
<markvandenborre> oops, sorry, message was meant for a friend
<Seveas> Last available person on the list today is xdatap
<theseinfeld> as I said, MOTU is perhaps too much for my digestion :D
<xdatap> ok
<popey> heh
<xdatap> may i go?
<Seveas> theseinfeld, see you in a couple of weeks/months when you've finished your wikipage!
<Seveas> xdatap, yes
<xdatap> Launchpad account: https://launchpad.net/~xdatap1  ||  Wiki page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PaoloSammicheli
<xdatap> Hi everybody. My name is Paolo Sammicheli from Siena, Italy. I started contributing in Ubuntu on November 2006 mainly within the Italian LoCo Team. Inside the LoCo Team I've been doing translations, contributing to the web site and I'm one of the administrators of the Italian Marketing Team (Gruppo Promozione). I've been contributing translations also for upstream projects (GNOME, freeciv.org) and I'm a member o
<xdatap> f the Siena LUG where I'm Free Software Evangelist since 1999. I also attended last UDS in Mountain View where I had a lot of fun meeting incredible ppl. In the future i will continue to work on Italian Marketing Team spreading the verb and... who knows? Maybe packages?
<Seveas> cheers from mdke and hattory. Will be hard to say no
<markvandenborre> +5
<markvandenborre> :)
<Seveas> xdatap, I'd like to see some more documentation about what you do for the -it team though
<popey> what is the utoon team for?
<Seveas> +0 here, testimonials good, documentation not so
<xdatap> popey: it's growing. a guy from italian it's a cartoon designer. we are trying to make some strips
<popey> excellent, compete with xkcd or userfriendly? :)
<xdatap> Seveas: what kind of documentation? I'm in web site team, workin on site
<xdatap> Seveas: and in Gruppo Promozione i'm one of the admin
<Seveas> xdatap, yes, but what kind of things do you do? Maintain drupal? Write php? Style with css?
<Seveas> just some more details. I don't doubt that you do good work, but I'd like to know what you do :)
<popey> xdatap: i thought I recognised your photo, you were at UDS in SFO?
<Seveas> popey, yes, see wikipage ;)
<xdatap> popey: yes, we met ad comunity track
<popey> it was rhetorical Seveas :p
<popey> thought so
<xdatap> Seveas: let me find pages for italian marketing team, that is the most evident work
<xdatap> here's the blueprint tree i made for gruppo promozione: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu-it/+spec/promozione-goal
<xdatap> each blueprint it's related to a project followed by a project manager
<markvandenborre> sorry guys, really have to go... +1 from me
<markvandenborre> bye
<Seveas> xdatap, for how many of those projects are you the manager?
<xdatap> Seveas: actualy i follow "LUG Partnership"
<xdatap> Seveas: it's a huge work because the project want to put in contact the 150 LUG of Italy with Ubuntu-it. Not easy at all. someone don't like us so much
<Seveas> ah duh, it says right there in the image
<xdatap> Seveas: and then supervisioning all project, talking in our mailing list
<Seveas> popey PriceChild stgraber, are you ready to vote?
<popey> xdatap: were you sponsored to UDS by canonical or did you get other funding?
<PriceChild> I'm torn for the same reasons as Seveas I'm afraid. +0. Would be great if you could get a little more info on your wiki page about what they are cheering you for.
<xdatap> popey: i payed myself my expenses and i'm very proud of it (someone called me crazy)
<Seveas> PriceChild, I'm actually leaning towards +1 now, given the added info
<stgraber> yeah, I tend to agree with Seveas too, +0 as well
<popey> nice one xdatap
<PriceChild> I've got to run in a couple of mins sorry & won't be able to stay throughout the next candidate.
<popey> +1 from me.
<Seveas> PriceChild, this is the last candidate :)
<jpds> xdatap: I'd say. ;-)
<Seveas> I'm changing to a +1
 * PriceChild thinks
 * popey notes the lights start to dim
<Seveas> heh
<Seveas> is PriceChild thinking that hard?
 * popey puts mor dilithium crystals in PriceChilds ear
<Seveas> moar dilithium!
<PriceChild> Right ok I'll go +1. They are great cheers.
<popey> woot
<xdatap> yay! Thanks everybody!
<popey> congrats xdatap
<Seveas> That makes 4 +1 and one +0. Welcome aboard xdatap !
<adiroiban> xdatap: congratulations!
<xdatap> thanks again! :)
 * popey twitches every time someone puts a + in front of 0
<Seveas> end of meeting, thanks for being here!
<popey> yay
<popey> good work guys
<MichaelGodawski> thank you again guys
<Seveas> popey, -0 is rather not but won't object, +0 is indefferent but no objections
 * popey pops off
<popey> oh
<popey> what about -0.00 ?
<popey> and +0.0000
<Seveas> annoying mathematician
<popey> haha
<popey> correct, you get a gold 0
<jpds> xdatap: Congrats :)
<xdatap> thanks jpds :)
<xdatap> leaving, bye bye
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 06 Jan 16:00: Server Team | 06 Jan 17:00: Kernel Team | 06 Jan 21:00: Community Council | 07 Jan 03:00: America's Council | 07 Jan 16:00: Foundation Team | 07 Jan 17:00: QA Team
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-01-06
<Technoviking> evening all
<amachu> hi
<MaWaLe> hi
<amachu> TheMuso: elkbuntu : persia : lifeless : Hi
<amachu> MaWaLe: Welcome
<TheMuso> Hi amachu.
<persia> Hey!
<MaWaLe> thx amachu
<amachu> elkbuntu: TheMuso : lifeless : are you people there?
<elkbuntu> hi
<elkbuntu> sorry the past few weeks, i was travelling
<amachu> elkbuntu: Hi
<TheMuso> amachu: Yes I am here.
<amachu> cool!
<amachu> and lifeless?
<nizarus> elkbuntu: travelling in Tunisia (irc channel) :p
<amachu> We miss zakame and belutz again
<elkbuntu> nizarus, huh?
 * persia opens https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/AsiaOceania
<elkbuntu> i'm trying to deal with a troublemaker in -ops, so my responses will be slow
<amachu> fine..
<elkbuntu> yay, relieved of that
<amachu> we shall start
<TheMuso> Our candidate is not here it seems, or at least not in channel.
<MaWaLe> i'm here :-/
<persia> Well, the other isn't.
<amachu> TheMuso: MaWaLe is present
<elkbuntu> MaWaLe, so, what have you done in the time since we last saw you?
<TheMuso> Sorry misread.
<MaWaLe> elkbuntu: i participated to the ENIS EVENT 8.12 and actually planning the ENIS EVENT 9.01 :)
<elkbuntu> could you explain what ENIS is?
<MaWaLe> ENIS : Ecole NAtionale des IngÃ©nieurs Ã  Sfax : National School of Engineers at Sfax
<elkbuntu> and what happens at it?
<MaWaLe> we held two conf'days and migrate the labs of the ENIS to Ubuntu
<amachu> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TunisianTeam/EventENIS is in Tunisian. request you to explain a bit more
<MaWaLe> i also animate an install party for the technical staff and the students there
<nizarus> amachu: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TunisianTeam/TeamReporting#ENIS%20Event%208.12
<MaWaLe> In  this event, I promote Ubuntu and hold a conference about Ubuntu and his use.
<MaWaLe> The ENIS EVENT 9.01 leads to migrate over than 1000 PCs and Laptops to Ubuntu and to provide assistance to the technical staff of the Tunisian National School of Engineers.
<amachu> what kind of assistance do you provide after migration?
<MaWaLe> it'll be a 3 days conference (23, 24 and 25th january)
<MaWaLe> assistance for using Ubuntu for novice users, technical support, documentation
<elkbuntu> MaWaLe, what sort of assistance? on-site? phone?
<MaWaLe> phone, mailing, skype and live meetings
<MaWaLe> i'm in constant contact whith the person in charge for the labs that we migrate
<MaWaLe> i always take part to the FST Conf'Day
<MaWaLe> in this day i present Ubuntu and the virtualization under ubuntu
<elkbuntu> if 2009 will be 1000 computers, how many were in 2008?
<MaWaLe> about 300 i think
<elkbuntu> nice
<MaWaLe> and this time there's a pics to illustrate my tolds :)
<elkbuntu> any other board have questions for mawale?
<elkbuntu> TheMuso, persia?
 * TheMuso reads the wiki page again to make sure he hasn't missed anything...
<persia> MaWaLe, I notice that your wiki page recently has a removal of an endorsement: do you know why this happened, and could you explain the change?
<elkbuntu> amachu, questioned out?
<amachu> MaWaLe: are there people here live to say few words about you now
<amachu> persia: TheMuso: ?
<TheMuso> MaWaLe: I see on your wiki page you mention creating a documentation team for help documents. How close are you to getting hat off the ground, or if it is off the ground, how is it progressing?
<MaWaLe> amachu: it's due to the dismission of Rafik from the management Committee
<MaWaLe> and the removal of the testimonial was made few minutes ago
<amachu> MaWaLe: I am asking, are there members here right now at IRC
<elkbuntu> nizarus, can you back up mawale's story?
<MaWaLe> there nizarus
<nizarus> hi :)
<alibb> i am tunisian loco team member
<alibb> hi every one
<elkbuntu> alibb, is what mawale says about rafik true?
<amachu> ye
<amachu> persia: are you there?
<nizarus> in our LoCo we got some troubles and rafik decided to leave the LoCo
<persia> amachu, Yes.
<MaWaLe> last modification of the wiki page :  06.01.2009 09:11:47 by rafik
<elkbuntu> nizarus, was this trouble a fight with mawale and rafik?
<alibb> elkbuntu,  yes MaWaLe and nizarus words are true
<nizarus> as he have a point of view different from all the LoCo
<elkbuntu> Rafik, are you around?
<nizarus> so I confirm my testimonials for MaWaLe
<elkbuntu> Rafik, we like to hear both sides of the story :)
<Rafik> elkbuntu: Yes. I don't trust on MaWaLe's motivations anymore. That's why I removed my testimonial.
<Rafik> I mean, motivations for being here in the ubuntu world
<alibb> i can say that MaWaLe, has chown very good teeam work and has very good technical back ground , i'am sure he will help the tunisian locoteam to buid our web server, as well as our tunisian mirror
<elkbuntu> Rafik, it would be biased to accept positive reasoning if we were not to accept negative reasoning. if you feel comfortable enough that your reasoning is sound, feel free to share it.
<elkbuntu> if you would like to bounce it off me first, my PM is open to you
<amachu> elkbuntu: PM?
<elkbuntu> amachu, sure
<MaWaLe>  I call Rafik to give evidence of his statements: I think it is more convenient than starting on the basis of assumptions.
<amachu> MaWaLe: and I am awaiting your reply for the question posted by TheMuso
<MaWaLe> sorry : what question?
<amachu> MaWaLe: I see on your wiki page you mention creating a documentation team for help documents. How close are you to getting hat off the ground, or if it is off the ground, how is it progressing?
<MaWaLe> okay : it's still in a project standing
<MaWaLe> we have to focus on creating the association to have a legal status in Tunisia
<MaWaLe> so I preferred to delay the project for the next phase
<Rafik> I'l give you one example from here : http://logs.ubuntu-eu.org/freenode/2008/07/30/%23ubuntu-tn.html
<TheMuso> Fair enough.
<Rafik> <MaWaLe> en rï¿½alitï¿½ je suis un Fedora Project Contributor loool
<Rafik> i haven't installed ubuntu yet
<Rafik> his wikipage : exclusively Ubuntu user since 3 years.
<karimtn> Hello every body
<Rafik> don't make sense..
<Rafik> I'll not talk about some other things he made that created trouble
<elkbuntu> MaWaLe, which is true, the logs saying you havent installed ubuntu, or your wikipage that says you have?
<persia> MaWaLe, Well, had you installed Ubuntu in July?
<persia> Also, could you explain the discrepancy?
<Rafik> here too, http://logs.ubuntu-eu.org/freenode/2008/07/29/%23ubuntu-tn.html , just to avoid saying it was a joke
<MaWaLe> in my  job i'm obliged to have Windows
<MaWaLe> a political choice
<MaWaLe> i'm a Government Emlployee
<MaWaLe> on my laptop it was installed before july
<elkbuntu> MaWaLe, we dont begrudge using other systems, but you seem to be making mockery of ubuntu
<MaWaLe> mockery : how?
<elkbuntu> MaWaLe, saying you contribute to fedora but have never installed ubuntu
<elkbuntu> it's in two seperate logs rafik has showed us
<nizarus> elkbuntu: the log is of july 2008
<persia> Well, even that would be fine in July, with the background to now, but it's the difference between this and the wiki page that is concerning.
<nizarus> in that date MaWaLe joined oure loco and he was presenting him self
<elkbuntu> nizarus, the wikipage claims 3 years
<MaWaLe> i'm user of ubuntu at home
<MaWaLe> not at work
<elkbuntu> nizarus, 6mths is significantly shorter than 3 years
<MaWaLe> you can verify my commands on ship-it
<MaWaLe> so in my work, i never install Ubuntu because the political strategy of the government is to have Windows installed
<MaWaLe> but at home i'm a linus user
<MaWaLe> s/linus/linux
<MaWaLe> and sorry for asking the question : when Rafik made the testimonial, he was'nt aware of what he's saying now?
<amachu> it appeared good for me, till we had this little tussle
<amachu> MaWaLe: Rafik : Can't you solve this within Team Tunisia
<persia> MaWaLe, Use only at home is fine.  The question is really why the log and the wiki page differ?
<Rafik> MaWaLe: Indeed. Things came to mind after trouble, unfortunate.
<Rafik> amachu: i'm afraid no.
<MaWaLe> because when rafik asks me the question, he saw in the whois wommands that i'm on a windows OS
<nizarus> amachu: this issue is for our LoCo we got a long discussion with boredandblogging about it
<nizarus> and it's definitely internal to our LoCo
<amachu> well, I would like to say this is on Mawale application for Membership..
<amachu> and if there is some sort of tussle within the Team, and that cannot be resolved, then LoCo Council would be place to report
<persia> I'll agree to that: I don't think it's the RMB's place to take a position on who is right and who is wrong, etc.
<persia> I don't mean to look into the details of the ubuntu-tn issues.
<nizarus> +1 persia thx
<alibb> elkbuntu, amachu, persia   all i know is MaWaLe is defending ubuntu during FOSS and presentation. whats happening betwing Rafik and MaWaLe are internal affair , hope you will juge on the personal value not on when he seems to use ubuntu and what the personal problems with rafik
<persia> I really just want to understand the discrepancy between the IRC log and the wiki page.
<TheMuso> persia: seconded.
<elkbuntu> alibb, this isnt about his dispute with rafik, this is about him exaggerating to get our favour. membership is as much trust as anything else
<MaWaLe> the log refer to the use of Ubuntu in my work
<MaWaLe> with the Government
<persia> alibb, I'd be happy approving membership for someone who first encountered Ubuntu three months ago, as long as they had been doing stellar contributions since then: it's not about time, it's about two places with conflicting information.
<MaWaLe> my wiki page refers to me : at home
<elkbuntu> alibb, could i trust someone who lied to me to make themselves seem better, with the Ubuntu name?
<Rafik> alibb: remember the server story too...
<MaWaLe> elkbuntu: i 'm not lying and i'm clear in my tolds
<MaWaLe> the logs refer to the use of ubuntu in my job and not my personal use of ubuntu
<elkbuntu> MaWaLe, you use fedora in your job then, not windows?
<MaWaLe> no : in my job with the Government i use Windows
<elkbuntu> since those same logs refer to you being a fedora contributor
<MaWaLe> before i was a user for RH and Fedora
<elkbuntu> at work?
<MaWaLe> and i think that it was what i said in my wiki page
<MaWaLe> no at home
<MaWaLe> at work : i repeat again that it's a politcal stratagy of the government
<amachu> One can contribute to both Fedora or Ubuntu. I don't think thats an obstacle for membership.
<MaWaLe> and i'm trying hardly to change the mind of my superior to use Linux and specially Ubuntu
<nizarus> amachu: i'm an RHCE and ubuntu member too
<MaWaLe> In any case I think I have demonstrated my commitment with the LoCo with all the activities that I have with it
<alibb> i am a sun isv
<alibb> and use opensolaris and ubuntu at work
<amachu> nizarus: thats fine.
<amachu> Rafik: the thing is that you donot back MaWaLe now? isn't it?
<Rafik> I think he don't deserve membership.
<amachu> Rafik: ok
<amachu> nizarus: your stand?
<nizarus> amachu: i know MaWaLe since july 08 and i confirm he apport to oure tunisian commitee
<nizarus> and i confirm that he wil be a very good ubuntu member
<amachu> MaWaLe: your opinion on contradictory stands elkbuntu & persia pointed out?
<MaWaLe> sorry?
<MaWaLe> i explained clearely that there is no contradiction in fact
<elkbuntu> amachu, he's given a reason, but given the actual log which flows as "are you an ubuntero?" "no, i'm a fedora contributor. i havent installed ubuntu. but since it's linux" is adequate enough to explain
<elkbuntu> is not*
<MaWaLe> the logs refer to the use of Windows at work and i think that the wiki spokes for me and not for the professional who i'm
<elkbuntu> not adequate enough
<MaWaLe> i haven't the ubuntu installed at work so i cannot have a GPG key to sign the code of conduct
<elkbuntu> MaWaLe, it seems to say you had fedora installed though.
<MaWaLe> and before the july, i didn't contribute with ubuntu because there wasn't a group to work with
<elkbuntu> so unless you expect me to believe that in consecutive lines, you were at home *then* seconds later at work...
<nizarus> elkbuntu: where is that log pleas ?
<MaWaLe> i have fedora + SuSe + NetBSD installed on virtual machines and peoples who was present in the events can confirm that i have many OSs installed to test the difference
<elkbuntu> nizarus, the ones rafik gave
<nizarus> elkbuntu: i don't see the two lines that you montionned
<persia> "je n'ai pas encore mis le Ubuntu, mais du moment que c'est du Linux" is the confusing statement.
<Rafik> nizarus: http://logs.ubuntu-eu.org/freenode/2008/07/30/%23ubuntu-tn.html (search for "fedora")
<elkbuntu> nizarus, http://logs.ubuntu-eu.org/freenode/2008/07/30/%23ubuntu-tn.html
<elkbuntu> <Rafik> (si tu as signÃ© le code de conduite)
<elkbuntu> <MaWaLe> en rï¿½alitï¿½ je suis un Fedora Project Contributor loool
<elkbuntu> <MaWaLe> je n'ai pas encore mis le Ubuntu
<elkbuntu> <MaWaLe> mais du moment que c'est du Linux
<persia> This clearly implies some sort of Linux (not Windows-at-work), yet not having installed Ubuntu.
<elkbuntu> persia, which is contradictory to what we're being told, yes?
<persia> Yes.
<MaWaLe> Rafik came to my office and he saw what I have on my PC
<persia> From a community-support perspective, I'm happy.  From an activity perspective, I'm happy.  This difference and the confusing explanations bother me.
<MaWaLe> and he can confirm that in my office i have Windows and no linux
<nizarus> thx elkbuntu
<elkbuntu> persia, i agree with you 100%
<TheMuso> I'd have to agree also.
<persia> The problem is how to move forward from here.
<nizarus> persia: simple looking to the future :)
<persia> I very much don't want to say "MaWaLe" will always have this hanging over, causing an issue, but as it's not a case of "get more support" or "do more", I'm not sure what is the right advice.
<alibb> +1 nizarus
<amachu_> nizarus: what responsibilty Rafik holds with Team Tunisia
<elkbuntu> amachu, they kicked him out
<persia> nizarus, Surely: it's just determining a future path: currently at least three of the members of the RMB are uncomfortable confirming membership: we need to determine what would be required to get membership in the future.
<amachu_> isn't Rafiq a member?
<nizarus> he was one of our active members with a lot of responsabilitys (web&tech, redactor, etc..)
<elkbuntu> amachu, he is
<amachu_> well I would say, a good atmosphere isn't prevailing right now..
<persia> amachu, elkbuntu TheMuso: suggestions on how to resolve this?
<TheMuso> persia: I am as stumped as you.
<nizarus> elkbuntu: it was a vote, because rafik refused to work with the team and preferred to work lonely
<Rafik> nizarus: assumptions :)
<amachu_> nizarus: Hope you are the Team Contact?
<elkbuntu> nizarus, i've also been told of a sabotage
<nizarus> amachu_ yes i am
<nizarus> elkbuntu: i will happy to talk with you about this in future
<elkbuntu> nizarus, which of course, was untrue
<amachu_> Rafik: You agree MaWaLe hs made contributions barring that incident?
<elkbuntu> nizarus, this is relevent to now though
<nizarus> elkbuntu: here we are for MaWaLe membership not the Tunisian LoCo issue :/
<Rafik> amachu_: yes, just wondering why.
<elkbuntu> nizarus, this incident involved mawale accusing rafik of sabotage, yes?
<alibb> +1 nizarus
<alibb> no elkbuntu ,  I confirm
<persia> nizarus, Right.  Like I said before, we don't really want to explore that.  It's more that we need to determine a way forward in this case, and there are doubts, perhaps related, so we might explore it some whilst we develop a plan for the future.
<nizarus> elkbuntu: Rafik accused all the LoCo of sabotaging him
<elkbuntu> alibb, you confirm what?
<Rafik> elkbuntu: in fact, MaWaLe said alibb sabotaged the server
<Rafik> to accuse me..^^
<MaWaLe> i'd neveer said that rafik
<amachu_> Well, I believe its't the right atmosphere
<alibb> Rafik, this is not the issue !
<MaWaLe> and i think that Rafik is here just to take revenge
<elkbuntu> alibb, to us, it is, and you want us to make a decision
<elkbuntu> MaWaLe, there is a bit of that, but what he has raised are genuinely and concerning
<alibb> elkbuntu, we are talking about MaWaLe membership not on internal tunisian locotems problems
<elkbuntu> alibb, please do not tell me what is relevent to my decision making
<amachu_> alibb: yes. But that is causing a concern on membership too.
<persia> alibb, Right.  The difference between the IRC log and the wiki page is unrelated to the tunisian team internal issues.
<alibb> sorry elkbuntu
<MaWaLe> elkbuntu: i think that a commitment for evaluating a membership must be based on the involvment of the applyant
<persia> (or at least the RMB interest is unrelated)
<elkbuntu> MaWaLe, this is part of your involvement whether or not you want it to be
<MaWaLe> and i think that with the activities i'm holding with my LoCo i'm demonstrating my involvment
<elkbuntu> MaWaLe, we cant look only at the good things, we have to look at the bad things too
<amachu_> MaWaLe: True. I missed your reply on contradictory statements
<MaWaLe> now if you think that we are here to talk about loco problems, it's up to you
<persia> Also, membership includes the right to represent the Ubuntu project, which is something where conflicting statements are very concerning.
<elkbuntu> I cannot in good conscience give mawale anything but a 0
<persia> elkbuntu, Any ideas as to what MaWaLe might do to get approval later?
<elkbuntu> persia, be more honest
<MaWaLe> more honest ?????
<persia> OK.  How can we measure this?
<elkbuntu> persia, by facts being supportable. by not telling us one thing while evidence says another
<persia> elkbuntu, So you'd be happy with a straight story, regardless of what was on the wiki in the past?
<MaWaLe> i think that i bring a facts today to the RMB members with my activities
<MaWaLe> and Rafik bring tolds and logs and nnot facts
<amachu_> this is tough, since we have contact of a LoCo team saying in favour of a new candidature
<elkbuntu> persia, yes. i prefer clear honesty and i believe in second (and sometimes third) chances
<MaWaLe> so if you thins i'm not honest i cannot accept it
<amachu_> nizarus: do you have something to say on the conflicting statements?
<elkbuntu> MaWaLe, rafik did not fake those logs. those logs not even I can touch
<persia> TheMuso, Would that also work for you?
<amachu_> I would like to take a stand based on that
<MaWaLe> i explain that it was a misunderstanding and not a contradiction
<nizarus> amachu_: i resumed this in my last talk
<TheMuso> persia: I don't know to be honest. I don't feel we clearly know what the log is indicating, (noting I haven't read it myself fully)
<amachu_> i got off for a while.. could you please repeat
<MaWaLe> but sorry to say that : elkbuntu, you said that i'm not honest and i cannot accept that
<elkbuntu> MaWaLe, then prove me wrong. you have not so far.
<nizarus> when MaWaLe joined us he activly participated and participating to the team activites
<persia> TheMuso, Understood.  Assuming that there was no discrepancy between logs and wiki pages, would you accept a new application?
<amachu_> Well, I would go by the Team Contact, though there may be conflicts with Rafik
<TheMuso> persia: As long as everything was clearly stated, and clearly identified as to who it was from, most probably.
<nizarus> for our youn loco it's the more important : having activ members with the group not lonley members
<persia> Right.
<persia> So, I propose the following for RMB votes:
<persia> Err, missed one.
<persia> MaWaLe, Do you understand the source of the discomfort by the RMB members?
<Rafik> nizarus: the same loco i was bleeding to maintain and keep together :)
<persia> Please: let's try to not rehash too much LoCo stuff :)
<MaWaLe> sorry persia : the last time when you explain me that i must have more visibility i understand it
<MaWaLe> but i cannot accept to be considered as a non honest people
<persia> MaWaLe, Indeed, and you've gotten that visibility, for which I must congratulate you.
<MaWaLe> all that rafik said and bring was to take revenge for his dismission
<elkbuntu> MaWaLe, the logs do not show revenge
<persia> I'm specifically not claiming that you're not honest: I just don't feel confident in my own understanding of the discrepancies between the IRC logs and your wiki pages.
<amachu_> dismission should have been the last resort..
<MaWaLe> elkbuntu: the acts of rafik shows that revenge
<elkbuntu> MaWaLe, yes, but also concern, and i understand that concern and agree with that concern
<persia> MaWaLe, So, LoCo issues aside, the issue for me is really that in one place you appear to claim to have started using Ubuntu in July, and in another claim to have started using it in 2005.
<amachu_> I would go with the statements of nizarus than Rafik since he is, even at this point the Tunisian Team LoCo contact
<elkbuntu> MaWaLe, revenge is to a degree why we support ubuntu. it is not itself a sin.
<persia> MaWaLe, I'm certain this is just oversight or confusion, and that it can be resolved, but I want to make sure you understand that source of discomfort.
<nizarus> thx amachu_
<MaWaLe> thx persia for the explanation
<elkbuntu> i thought alibb introduced himself as the contact of the tunisian team?
<elkbuntu> no, contact. my eyes are tired
<MaWaLe> but i think that my doing demonstrate y involvment and that it was the first referer to the evaluation of a membership
<elkbuntu> sorry
<nizarus> no elkbuntu
<elkbuntu> errr. member. my brain is tried too
<alibb> no elkbuntu i just said i am an tunisian loco member
<nizarus> okay elkbuntu :))
<persia> MaWaLe, Yes, involvement is the primary concern, and you've clearly demonstrated that.
<MaWaLe> and i continue my involvment in planning events for ubuntu?
<persia> Essentially, I have little confidence you'll be approved this evening.
<MaWaLe> but what are Rafik doing for Ubuntu??? that's the real question
<persia> MaWaLe, Please: that's a separate issue: let's keep them apart.
<nizarus> MaWaLe: it's not the place to ask this question :)
<MaWaLe> okay persia
<persia> So, If you could review all the sources of claims you can, and revise the wiki page that there is no confusion, we'd love to have you back next week.
<amachu_> Rafik: Thanks for your concerns that a right candidate should deserve membership and you came out here and sahred your thoughts
<persia> If you're unsure, feel free to contact any of us in the meantime, and have us take a look for things: I'm sure we'd be happy to help explain whether it is sufficient.
<amachu_> Rafik: Consider settling this down with your Team.
<persia> Everyone good with that?
<TheMuso> persia: +1
<elkbuntu> persia, +1
<amachu_> persia: I am not in a situation to give +1 for MaWaLe
<amachu_> Would prefer 0
<persia> amachu_, Are you comfortable with the plan I outlined above?
<amachu_> persia: revising the wiki page?
<elkbuntu> amachu_, this is the 'action plan' vote, not the membership vote
<MaWaLe> sorry persia for saying that but simply revising the wiki page didn't resolv the problem
<amachu_> elkbuntu: yes. +1
<persia> amachu_, Yes: revising the wiki page, perhaps in collaboration with RMB members, and revisiting the meeting.
<elkbuntu> amachu_, generally 'getting your facts straight'
<MaWaLe> i can omit to mention in the wiki page the date of beginning of use of ubuntu
<MaWaLe> should i be more "honest" if i do that?
<persia> amachu_, OK.  What other issue do you have that needs to be resolved before we can approve MaWaLe ?
<Rafik> amachu_: I'll finish my exams on O1/15. Then I'll officially contact the loco council it.
<persia> MaWaLe, Let's ignore "honesty", let's instead call it "consistency".
<Rafik> don't had time lately because of preparation for exams
<MaWaLe> but consistency can be revised now if you want
<elkbuntu> MaWaLe, i have to work tomorrow, i dont have the time to wait
<MaWaLe> so all the troubles come from the "3 years" that i mention it on the wiki
<amachu_> Rafik: I have to trust nizarus more than you. There can be internal principles of a LoCo Team which decided upon how its members should be or not
<persia> MaWaLe, We're already overtime on the meeting, unfortunately, but thank you.  We just need to confirm this will resolve all the issues.
<MaWaLe> i was speaking for my personal use of ubuntu and not professional and it's bizarre but it was rafik who told me to put that on my wiki page
<persia> MaWaLe, Not the "three years", but the discrepancy.  We like consistency: it makes it easier for us.
<elkbuntu> MaWaLe, you were speaking of your professional use of fedora too?
<amachu_> MaWaLe: Please show up next week. Hope you will get it through.
<amachu_> And best wishes.
<MaWaLe> thx for all of you
<persia> amachu_, : Again, is there anything other than a revising of the wiki page to match other sources that you'd need to approve MaWaLe ?
<MaWaLe> and persia can i ask you to assist me to do that please
<persia> MaWaLe, Certainly.
<amachu_> I should say, I just asked whether there are people to support MaWaLe at IRC at it turned down things ;-)
<amachu_> completely
<amachu_> till then it was +1
<persia> So no other issues you want to see resolved?
<elkbuntu> i'm done for the night
<amachu_> ok
<amachu_> MaWaLe: hoping to meet you again and Best wishes
<MaWaLe> thx amachu_
<persia> MaWaLe, Apologies for the inconvenience: let's discuss over the next week, and with luck you will have success next week, or the week after, depending on your schedule.
<amachu_> fine, moving on to the next thing that I was supposed to share, I do not have new nominations right now for the Board expansion
<amachu_> any one else has?
<MaWaLe> it'll be fine for the next week because the week after i'll be at the ENIS EVENT 9.01 :)
<amachu_> persia: elkbuntu: TheMuso ?
 * persia has been reviewing some IRC logs, but hasn't made as much progress as was hoped.
<elkbuntu> amachu_, i have someone in mind, but i havent had chance to ask them first
<TheMuso> amachu_: None here.
<amachu_> fine, We shall take it up in mailing list then or at the next meeting
<amachu_> anything else to be discussed?
<persia> Reminder, next week is 15:00 UTC, assuming the room is open.
 * TheMuso can't make 15:00UTC.
<elkbuntu> nor i
<amachu_> lets hope lifeless and belutz joins
<amachu_> whats zakame is dormant
<elkbuntu> and the week after that, someone will need to ring me on my phone and remind me, as i'll be at Linux Conf Au
<amachu_> ring you?
 * persia suspects lifeless, also being in UTC+11, won't make it either.
<amachu_> i shall mind messaging you though
<elkbuntu> amachu_, on my phone, and pray i hear it over the awesomeness
<amachu_> Hmm..
<elkbuntu> amachu_, i have calendar on my phone, i just have to remember to look at it
<amachu_> you can mail me.. I will remind..
<elkbuntu> TheMuso, are you LCA'ing?
<TheMuso> elkbuntu: no.
<amachu_> is that all?
<elkbuntu> amachu_, yeah
<amachu_> Shall we wind up for the day?
<elkbuntu> TheMuso, know if lifeless is or not?
<TheMuso> elkbuntu: He may, but I don't know for sure.
<amachu_> Thank you everyone for participating. Our next meeting 13 Jan 09, 15.00 UTC
<amachu_> Ciao!
<elkbuntu> amachu_, thanks, bye
<amachu_> :-)
<TheMuso> thanks
<yann2> mmh...
<yann2> !time
<ubottu> Information about using and setting your computer's clock on Ubuntu can be found at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuTime - See https://help.ubuntu.com/7.10/server/C/NTP.html for information on usage of the Network Time Protocol (NTP)
<yann2> !utc time
<ubottu> Sorry, I don't know anything about utc time
<yann2> grm
<Pici> @now
<ubottu> Current time in Etc/UTC: January 06 2009, 13:59:00 - Next meeting: Server Team in 2 hours 0 minutes
<Pici> yann2: ^
<yann2> thanks :)
<yann2> time for servermeeting is wrong according to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
<persia> Isn't is 16:00 UTC?
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Server Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 06 Jan 17:00: Kernel Team | 06 Jan 21:00: Community Council | 07 Jan 03:00: America's Council | 07 Jan 16:00: Foundation Team | 07 Jan 17:00: QA Team
 * mathiaz waves
<sommer> hey all
<kirkland> o/
 * zul waves
<nijaba> o/
<mathiaz> let's get started
<mathiaz> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:01. The chair is mathiaz.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<nealmcb> o/
<mathiaz> Welcome the very first meeting of the Server Team in the fabulious year 2039!
<mathiaz> how is everyone doing?
<nijaba> Great! Happy new year *
<kirkland> \o/
<sommer> err 2039
<soren> o/
<jdstrand>  \o
<mathiaz> today's amazing agenda can be read online at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
<zul> in the year 2000....in the year 2000
<mathiaz> ^^ is this accurate?
<mathiaz> zul: has this been discussed last time?
<soren> No, it's not the year 2000.
<nijaba> mathiaz: please note that I just updated the agenda to remove what was discussed last time
<soren> So that's highly inaccurate.
<mathiaz> nijaba: ah ok. Thanks!
<zul> mathiaz: no it wasnt discussed
<mathiaz> so last meetings minutes can be found at:http://people.ubuntu.com/~chucks/mootbot.txt
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Screen Profiles
<MootBot> New Topic:  Screen Profiles
<mathiaz> what's up with that?
<persia> Someone probably wants to update the text to say "From 16:00 to 17:00 UTC" as well.
<kirkland> mathiaz: i owe several people merges
<kirkland> mathiaz: and i need to address the concerns that Riddell raised about adding to the archive
<mathiaz> persia: hm yes. Thanks for pointing this out
<kirkland> mathiaz: i'm going to spend sometime on this today
<jdstrand> kirkland: are these concerns in a bug somewhere?
<mathiaz> is there a wiki page to keep track of this work?
<mathiaz> nealmcb: there was an action item related to a wiki page
<Riddell> jdstrand: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-archive/2008-December/023487.html
<Riddell> trivial to fix
<jdstrand> heh, ok
<jdstrand> Riddell: thanks
<kirkland> Riddell: thanks, i was digging for that ;-)
<nealmcb> mathiaz: right - I'll update the wiki if there is news
<kirkland> jdstrand: yeah, it's trivial, i just havent gotten to it
<mathiaz> nealmcb: what's the wiki page url?
<nealmcb> !servergui
<ubottu> Ubuntu server does not install a desktop environment or X11 by default in order to enhance security, efficiency and performance.  !eBox provides a GUI system management option via a web interface.  See https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ServerGUI for more background and options.
<nealmcb> mathiaz: that is where I put a simple heads-up link to the screen stuff.  but it should have its own page too
<mathiaz> nealmcb: ah ok! seems like a good plan
<mathiaz> kirkland: what do you mean by owing several people merges?
<mathiaz> kirkland: are you refering to screen only?
<kirkland> mathiaz: i'd like to talk more about screen-profiles next week, once i've merged more of the contributions
<mathiaz> kirkland: or other packages too
<kirkland> mathiaz: no, the screen-profiles package
<kirkland> mathiaz: nijaba has done a lot of work
<kirkland> https://code.edge.launchpad.net/screen-profiles
<nijaba> kirkland: yes, and I plan to do some more as time permits :)
<kirkland> mathiaz: also, nxvl has a proposed merge
<kirkland> mathiaz: this work will continue to be sort of spare-time, community driven
<nijaba> kirkland: nxvl fix was already done in my branch
<kirkland> mathiaz: as dendrobates has indicated that this isn't Canonical work (really)
<mathiaz> kirkland: great.
<mathiaz> kirkland: it seems that there is some good feedback from the community
<kirkland> mathiaz: i've been pleased with the response
<mathiaz> kirkland: is there some plan to enable this by default?
<kirkland> mathiaz: i'm hoping to get it included into main, and on the server cd
<kirkland> mathiaz: i'm hoping the first time you run screen, you'll select your screen profile
<mathiaz> kirkland: a similar experience to the default editor choice?
<kirkland> mathiaz: i'm also hoping that utility will give you an option of turning it "on by default" on a per user basis
<kirkland> mathiaz: precisely
<nealmcb> speaking of guis and ebox (as ubottu reminds us), I sent a message just now to foolano about helping with an SRU, based on https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ebox/+bug/255368
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 255368 in ebox "ebox: Depends: libapache-authcookie-perl but it is not installable " [Undecided,Confirmed]
<kirkland> nijaba: your thoughts?
<jdstrand> kirkland: that sounds like the way to go to me. on for everyone by default sounds risky.
<mathiaz> kirkland: how many profiles do you plan to have?
<nijaba> kirkland: I think it could be set up by default...
<kirkland> mathiaz: no target number ... i will say that most of the contributions/suggestions i've gotten so far have been changes to the initial default profile i set up
<kirkland> mathiaz: i sort of expected people to create brand new profiles and submit those
<kirkland> mathiaz: but it hasn't really worked out that way, for better or worse
<kirkland> mathiaz: no matter, i'm perfectly happy having only 1 or 2, if they're good ;-)
<kirkland> mathiaz: also, nijaba and i have been working on modularizing the profile itself
<mathiaz> kirkland: yes. May be was is needed to have a default profile rather then having multiple profiles to choose from
<kirkland> mathiaz: so it works more like adding "applets" to your gnome task bars
<mathiaz> kirkland: ie provide a best-practice profile.
<nijaba> kirkland: I am still working on the kb equivalent part
<mathiaz> kirkland: allright - all of this seems great.
<kirkland> mathiaz: have you seen/used it at all yet?
<mathiaz> kirkland: nope - I'm just back from UDS :)
<kirkland> actually, open question for the team ... has anyone used it yet?
<sommer> kirkland: me
<kirkland> UDS was a month ago :-)
<sommer> kirkland: might be an older version though
<nealmcb> kirkland: yes, briefly
<kirkland> mathiaz: http://blog.dustinkirkland.com/2008/12/ubuntu-server-includes-window-manager.html
<mathiaz> kirkland: ok - if you have some more ideas to work on, I'd suggest to write up a wiki page for that.
<mathiaz> kirkland: so that people could help out in implementation
<kirkland> mathiaz: good idea
<mathiaz> kirkland: so to summarize, you'll upload a new package soon
<mathiaz> kirkland: and work will continue to improve the profiles
<kirkland> mathiaz: agreed.
<mathiaz> kirkland: trying to implement a concept similar to a task bar in screen
<kirkland> mathiaz: right, notifications being very important
<mathiaz> [ACTION] kirkland to upload a new version of the screen-profile package
<MootBot> ACTION received:  kirkland to upload a new version of the screen-profile package
<mathiaz> kirkland: could you setup a wiki page to outline this task (taskbar in screen)?
<kirkland> mathiaz: i'll make it more general than that, but yes
<mathiaz> [ACTION] kirkland to create a wiki page to outline how-to implement a taskbar in screen
<MootBot> ACTION received:  kirkland to create a wiki page to outline how-to implement a taskbar in screen
<mathiaz> kirkland: great - thanks!
<kirkland> mathiaz: the hardest part has been agreeing upon hotkeys
<mathiaz> let's move on.
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] review KVM page refactoring
<MootBot> New Topic:  review KVM page refactoring
<kirkland> mathiaz: choosing things that don't conflict with other stuff
<nijaba> kirkland: hence the modularization I am working on
<mathiaz> nijaba: what's the state on that?
<mathiaz> sommer: ^^
<nijaba> mathiaz: if everything goes well, whould be ready EOW
<mathiaz> nijaba: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/KVM ?
<nijaba> mathiaz: oh, on KVM --> Done
<mathiaz> nijaba: ^^ this is what you've refactored?
<nijaba> did it over the vacations
<nijaba> yes
<mathiaz> nijaba: there is still a note that says WIP on the wiki page
<sommer> oh woops, was I supposed to help with that?
<mathiaz> sommer: oh. Not necessarly
<mathiaz> sommer: just that you're a documentation guru
<nijaba> "#This is still work in progress! Feel free to jump in and extend this documentation! "?
<mathiaz> nijaba: yes
<mathiaz> nijaba: if the work is over, should this note be removed?
<nijaba> mathiaz: even though I refactored it, the content can still be extended
<mathiaz> nijaba: right - that's always the case with a wiki
<nijaba> mathiaz: the note has almost always been there...
<mathiaz> nijaba: oh ok. I thought you added it when you were working on refactoring the page.
<nijaba> mathiaz: not this one :)
<nijaba> soren, what do people think of it?
<nijaba> err, not soren, so...
<mathiaz> nijaba: well - we could remove it if the pages seem complete enough
<nijaba> mathiaz: sure
<soren> nijaba: Oh, good, because I have no idea :)
<mathiaz> nijaba: done.
<nijaba> gerat
<mathiaz> nijaba: ok - so it seems that this task has been completed now.
<nijaba> mathiaz: yes, and I moved it away from the roadmap to the report
<mathiaz> nijaba: great - thanks!
<mathiaz> let's move on
<nijaba> np
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] SRU for ebox
<MootBot> New Topic:  SRU for ebox
<mathiaz> nealmcb: ^^?
<mathiaz> sommer: ^?
<zul> I have a look at it, just need a couple of corrections done to the changelog and should be uploaded this week
<mathiaz> zul: did you get an ACK from the motu-sru team?
<sommer> also the packages are in my ppa if anyone wants to do more testing :)
<mathiaz> zul: which version are you going to upload?
<zul> mathiaz: not yet bugs need to be opened for the issues that we have, the patches have been backported from the ppa to the ones in the archive sommer can tell you what he did
<nealmcb> zul cool!
<mathiaz> sommer: hm - so you've backported the ldap fix?
<sommer> basically the apache-authcookie code has been embedded into the new ebox version, and there's some updates for gconf and dbus in intrepid
<sommer> mathiaz: yep, that too
<mathiaz> sommer: ok - that's seems the best option for an SRU
<mathiaz> sommer: only two packages to fix.
<nealmcb> sommer/zul can you point to the ppa from that bug report?
<zul> 3 packages to fix
<sommer> 3, ebox, libebox, and ebox-usersandgroups
<mathiaz> sommer: it seems that you've touched the minimal number of packages
<nealmcb> and have either of you talked to foolano about this?
<sommer> mathiaz: I also tested the rest and they seem to work fine
<zul> nealmcb: no i havent
<sommer> nealmcb: nope, I meant to ping him on IRC, but I did't run into any huge issues
<mathiaz> sommer: ok - so it seems we have package ready.
<zul> there is also a request to get the newer ebox in jaunty, if someone from the community want to get on it that would be great
<mathiaz> what's the next step?
<sommer> mathiaz: I think file some bugs and subscribe the sru team?
<mathiaz> sommer: right. Now that the patches are ready, we can file specific bugs about them.
<mathiaz> we'll also have to upload the new version of ebox to jaunty.
<sommer> mathiaz: I should have that done this afternoon or this evening
<sommer> mathiaz: what's the process for jaunty?
<mathiaz> [ACTION] sommer to file specific bugs for the SRU for ebox in intrepid.
<MootBot> ACTION received:  sommer to file specific bugs for the SRU for ebox in intrepid.
<mathiaz> sommer: we need to get the new packages from foolano and review them.
<mathiaz> nealmcb: did you get feedback from him?
<nealmcb> nope
<nealmcb> but I just wrote him, so getting a note in the bug report would get him up to date
<mathiaz> nealmcb: which bug report are you refering to?
<nealmcb> why are new bug reports needed?
<nealmcb> Set above....
<zul> for the ldap change and the gconfd changes
<nealmcb> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ebox/+bug/255368
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 255368 in ebox "ebox: Depends: libapache-authcookie-perl but it is not installable " [Undecided,Confirmed]
<nealmcb> ok but they are mentioned I think in the bug or its dups
<persia> If there are already bugs, repurposing is preferred, as it makes it easier for the SRU team to see that it's fixed-in-jaunty
<nealmcb> see the dups also e.g. https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ebox/+bug/273486
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 273486 in ebox "Current eBox packages in intrepid don't work at all (dup-of: 255368)" [Undecided,New]
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 255368 in ebox "ebox: Depends: libapache-authcookie-perl but it is not installable " [Undecided,Confirmed]
<mathiaz> hm - ok.
<mathiaz> so bug 255368 is about one change
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 255368 in ebox "ebox: Depends: libapache-authcookie-perl but it is not installable " [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/255368
<mathiaz> as zul mentionned there are two others changes needed to fix ebox in intrepid
<nealmcb> right but the other one lists the ldap issue
<nealmcb> not sure about gconfd
<zul> nealmcb: the gconfd change is needed because gconfd changed to dbus in intrepid
<mathiaz> nealmcb: right - bug 273486 lists the ldap change
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 273486 in ebox "Current eBox packages in intrepid don't work at all (dup-of: 255368)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/273486
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 255368 in ebox "ebox: Depends: libapache-authcookie-perl but it is not installable " [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/255368
<mathiaz> zul: is there  a bug about that?
<zul> mathiaz: not yet sommer will be doing it tonight I believe
<mathiaz> zul: ok.
<mathiaz> [ACTION] sommer to file a bug explaining the gconfd fix in ebox for intrepid.
<MootBot> ACTION received:  sommer to file a bug explaining the gconfd fix in ebox for intrepid.
<mathiaz> sommer: bug 255368 should be use to outline the fix for the authentification
<sommer> I'm confused, do we also need a bug about the authcookie thing and ldap?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 255368 in ebox "ebox: Depends: libapache-authcookie-perl but it is not installable " [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/255368
<sommer> mathiaz: gotcha that works
<mathiaz> sommer: and bug 273486 should be marked unduplicated and be used to outline the change for the ldap fix
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 273486 in ebox "Current eBox packages in intrepid don't work at all (dup-of: 255368)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/273486
<nealmcb> ahh - sounds good
<mathiaz> sommer: bug 273486 makes a reference to dnsguardian
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 273486 in ebox "Current eBox packages in intrepid don't work at all (dup-of: 255368)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/273486
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 255368 in ebox "ebox: Depends: libapache-authcookie-perl but it is not installable " [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/255368
<mathiaz> sommer: have you run into this issue?
<sommer> mathiaz: no, the dansgaurdian stuff is only in the ebox ppa version
<mathiaz> sommer: ok. great then.
<sommer> mathiaz: not what's currently in intrepid... at least I think
<mathiaz> [ACTION] sommer to use bug 273486 to outline the openldap change
<MootBot> ACTION received:  sommer to use bug 273486 to outline the openldap change
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 273486 in ebox "Current eBox packages in intrepid don't work at all (dup-of: 255368)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/273486
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 255368 in ebox "ebox: Depends: libapache-authcookie-perl but it is not installable " [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/255368
<mathiaz> [ACTION] sommer to file a new bug explaining the gconfd change.
<MootBot> ACTION received:  sommer to file a new bug explaining the gconfd change.
<mathiaz> sommer: as a reminder: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates outlines the procedure
<sommer> mathiaz: cool thanks
<mathiaz> sommer: and the format to use when creating/updating bugs for a SRU
 * yann2 back for discussion about webarchitecture, if time permits later (sorry i was away)
<mathiaz> sommer: so I think we have a plan for ebox SRU in intrepid.
<nealmcb> thanks!
<sommer> mathiaz: yeppers
<mathiaz> OTOH we'll also have to update the version in jaunty
<mathiaz> before having it fixed in intrepid.
<zul> i can do that this afternoon
<zul> while waiting for mysql to finish
<mathiaz> zul: great - 0.12.6 seems to be available from the PPA
<mathiaz> zul: you may wanna get in touch with upstream to see which one they suggest to upload to jaunty
<zul> mathiaz: will do
<mathiaz> zul: or at least the latest stable.
<mathiaz> [ACTION] zul to look at uploading the lastest stable release of ebox to jaunty.
<MootBot> ACTION received:  zul to look at uploading the lastest stable release of ebox to jaunty.
<mathiaz> let's move on.
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] WebArchitecture -
<MootBot> New Topic:  WebArchitecture -
<mathiaz> yann2: Isn't that a support issue rather than a development issue?
<yann2> Hello - as I tried to explain in my small page on the wiki
<yann2> mathiaz > no, i don't think so
<mathiaz> yann2: the link doesn't work
<yann2> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/WebArchitecture
<yann2> basically the main issue is that we (ubuntu) run all the php apps  under the user www-data
<yann2> and that we rely on mod_php and on php security features to get a feeling of security
<mathiaz> yann2: right - there has been some discussion to provide mod_fcgid in main
<yann2> things like safe_mode, that won't get supported in php6 anyway
<yann2> mmh, I didnt know about that.
<mathiaz> yann2: that's what was suggested by the security team and ivoks
<yann2> but fastcgi, cgid, mod_itk or whatever -
<mathiaz> yann2: it hasn't happend yet however.
<yann2> php, python and otherwebapps really should run under their own user
<yann2> right, I am glad someone put the topic up before me :) where could I contact them?
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Kernel Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 06 Jan 21:00: Community Council | 07 Jan 03:00: America's Council | 07 Jan 16:00: Foundation Team | 07 Jan 17:00: QA Team
<mathiaz> yann2: right. So I'll defer this discussion to the next meeting as we're running out of time
<yann2> np
<mathiaz> yann2: ivoks is interested in that
 * persia hopes for an "Open Discussion" item.
<mathiaz> yann2: https://launchpad.net/~ivoks
<mathiaz> persia: I'm sorry we won't have time
<yann2> thanks mathiaz  I will contact him
<persia> mathiaz, OK.  I'll put it on the agenda for next week.
<mathiaz> The kernel team meeting is following
<mathiaz> persia: please do.
<mathiaz> persia: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Agree on next meeting date and time
<MootBot> New Topic:  Agree on next meeting date and time
<mathiaz> Next week, same time, same place?
<sommer> o//
<nijaba> +1
<mathiaz> allright then - see you all next week, same time, same place.
<mathiaz> and happy hacking on 9.04!
<mathiaz> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:01.
<pgraner> Hello All... Time for the kernel team meeting...
<pgraner> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 11:01. The chair is pgraner.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
 * apw is here
 * smb_tp too
 * cking too
<lieb> yawn
<rtg> cking: ext4 support for grub! way to go.
<cking> rtg: it was nothing really
<pgraner> cking is at it again I see....
<rtg> now, if we can get the installer guys to offer it as an option.
<rtg> cking: did you get that uploaded?
<pgraner> [TOPIC] Security and SRU kernels
<MootBot> New Topic:  Security and SRU kernels
<pgraner> smb_tp: how do things look?
<smb_tp> I got the kernel for the 8.04.2 uploaded in December. So far no big complains
<smb_tp> No security stuff at the moment
<pgraner> smb_tp: according to the schedule Jan 14th is the date for the intrepid kernel, still good to go?
<smb_tp> When I checked yesterday there were no new things queued in git. There might be one thing about the pauses
<smb_tp> if we find out quick enough what of the millions of changes in 2.6.28 did the trick
<apw> 9.5k changes :(
<pgraner> smb_tp: ok...
<rtg> smb_tp: are the pauses a regression?
<apw> there is that dell resume hang patch pending
<rtg> I want the current -proposed Intrepid kernel propagated to -updates. so unless there is something _really_ important in the queue...
<smb_tp> I go through that tomorrow, so we could trigger another upload before. If it is not too much a week in -proposed might do ok
<apw> smb_tp, is that the "need to press a key" to make boot work one?
<pgraner> smb_tp: provided the fixes are small and isolated
<smb_tp> apw, the one I was referring with pauses, yes
<rtg> if its not a regression, then it can wait.
 * pgraner agrees
<smb_tp> But I am not very sure this can be found in the timeframe until the 14th. Maybe for the next upload
<smb_tp> It is a long standing regression from hardy
<smb_tp> but only on some systems
<rtg> smb_tp: there is no reason we can't commit the fix (if found). just don't upload yet.
<smb_tp> mostly hp
<smb_tp> rtg, sure.
<apw> i have had questions about the dell resume fix, as in when is it going to make it, it got missed in rtg's sweep up of pending patches over the break
<smb_tp> But isolating will take time given that I don't have such a system. So it all goes through test kernels and user tests
<rtg> apw: what Dell resume fix?
<smb_tp> apw, it is in git?
<apw> smb_tp, yep been in there a few days
<apw> rtg its a dri restore fix for i915 on later hardware
<smb_tp> apw ah ok, saw it
<rtg> apw: it must not have been there the last time I uploaded
<apw> yeah it was out on our mailing list, but slipped through fingers in your sweep when we were off
<apw> just bad luck
<rtg> apw: ok, it'll get into -proposed right after the current kernel is propagated
<apw> ok
<pgraner> Ok... anything else for this topic?
<smb_tp> rtg, I would say, we promote -proposed to -updates then upload this one and get it promoted to -updates before the 14th. Would that be ok with you?
<rtg> smb_tp: possibly, but we'll have to work with pitti and slangasek on that.
<smb_tp> rtg, Sure. I will talk to him pitty tomorrow about that
<pgraner> [TOPIC] Jaunty Status
<MootBot> New Topic:  Jaunty Status
<pgraner> We have several milestones due prior to Alpha3
<rtg> Jaunty is looking OK, despite some installer issues.
<rtg> cking has a grub patch for ext4 support, so we can boot native.
<pgraner> * Removal of ACPI method of suspend.
<pgraner> * Update of the wiki page on how to use the new suspend/resume test framework
<rtg> whats that?
<pgraner> * Review of the debugging suspend/resume wiki
<pgraner> * Initial cut of the susupend resume script shipped in A3
<smb_tp> Sound like the list from UDS
<pgraner> BenC has the ACPI bits. He couldn't make the the meeting so I'll get him to follow up to the mailing list.
<sconklin> apw and I have independently been working at bits of this
<pgraner> [ACTION] pgraner to get BenC to follow up on ACPI supsned removal
<MootBot> ACTION received:  pgraner to get BenC to follow up on ACPI supsned removal
<apw> we have most of the bits of the scripting, sconklin you and i need to get together and shoce the two halves together
<sconklin> apw: right, pgraner, you can assign that to us
<pgraner> apw: when do you think you'll get the wiki page up with decent info?
<pgraner> [ACTION] apw & sconklin to tie up on suspend/resume
<MootBot> ACTION received:  apw & sconklin to tie up on suspend/resume
<sconklin> I can help with that as well
<apw> once we have the basic script dynamics done that should be easy to complete
<apw> yep, then we can review the rest of the stuff to make sure it makes sense and links to this new info
<pgraner> apw: I'll leave that action with you. When done publish to the disto-team & kernel-team mailing lists
<apw> ok
<pgraner> [ACTION] apw to get suspend/resume wiki up to speed
<MootBot> ACTION received:  apw to get suspend/resume wiki up to speed
<sconklin> I'll check with pitti or whoever and see if we turn apport on by default in pre-releases
<sconklin> We should, to make this work
<pgraner> Those are the big ticket items for A3 anything else?
<pgraner> [ACTION] sconklin to check with pitti or whoever and see if we turn apport on by default in pre-releases
<MootBot> ACTION received:  sconklin to check with pitti or whoever and see if we turn apport on by default in pre-releases
<pgraner> Anything else on this topic
<pgraner> Ok moving on then...
<pgraner> [TOPIC] ARM Tree
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM Tree
<pgraner> amkitk is still on holiday... so we won't have much to say. rtg can you bring us up to speed
<pgraner> what what you have going on
<rtg> no changes since Amit went on holiday. I hope to get an ARM platform today so I can at least fix the build problems.
<apw> any sign of a porter?
<rtg> supposedly the DC has hardware...
<pgraner> rtg: I'll confirm that it was shipped to you today
<pgraner> [ACTION] pgraner to confirm that it was shipped to you today
<MootBot> ACTION received:  pgraner to confirm that it was shipped to you today
<rtg> I think you also ought to ask where the porters are?
<pgraner> [ACTION] pgraner to find out porter status
<MootBot> ACTION received:  pgraner to find out porter status
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Kernel Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 06 Jan 21:00: Community Council | 07 Jan 03:00: America's Council | 07 Jan 16:00: Foundation Team | 07 Jan 17:00: QA Team | 07 Jan 18:00: Edubuntu meeting
<pgraner> [TOPIC] Open discussion...
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open discussion...
<pgraner> Anyone have any items they wish to discuss/ bring up?
<apw> nothing i can think of
<rtg> I have not read Scott's analysis. are boot times improving?
<apw> yeah looked like 5s overall
<apw> 5s out of like 25 iirc
<pgraner> apw: how much was kernel?
<rtg> what about the 18 sec that pitti claims?
<pgraner> apw: or was it all kernel
 * pgraner hasn't read either
<Keybuk> rtg: what did pitti change for that?
<apw> mostly from the modules being builtin
<Keybuk> pgraner: kernel changes don't seem to make the kernel init take any longer
<rtg> Keybuk: just the built in PATA/SATA
<Keybuk> while reducing userspace by ~5s
<cking> I'd like to know how it performs using an SSD
<rtg> Keybuk: I think he also skipped initramfs
<Keybuk> ah, I may have built the reversion just before that commit ;)
<Keybuk> cking: my tests are all done on SSD
<cking> Keybuk: great
<Keybuk> rtg: yeah, your commit to build in the drivers was done just after I did the checkouts yesterday to build
<rtg> I was a bit nervous about it, so I delayed.
<rtg> I think all of the components are now built in that allow us to skip initramfs.
<rtg> at least on the generic PC
<apw> basically the uuid issue is the only thing outstanding
<rtg> apw: right, we have to decide if its grub or the kernel that gets changed for that. I vote kernel.
<cking> rtg: me too
<apw> it feels like something we can do there pretty cheap
<cking> it's generic and will work for grub 0.97, grub 2 etc
<pgraner> cking: what are the downsides?
<rtg> its likely something we could get pushed upstream as well
<cking> pgraner: none - it's far easier to do it in kernel space than in grub
<apw> rtg, when looking to do that  we might consider if 'id' rather than 'uuid' is simpler in kernel
<rtg> I'm not sure I understand the difference
 * pgraner either
 * cking neither too
<apw> i thought id was only info in the sense page
<apw> and uuid could be more deeply tied to the partition contents
<apw> and as such one was cheaper than the other
<apw> as in /dev/disk/by-id rather than by-uuid
<rtg> I'm sure that uuid is tied to the partition as well as the file system on that partition.
<cking> apw: you are right there. uuid has to be extracted from the partition - but it varies per file system
<Keybuk> err
<Keybuk> if you mean by "id" what I think you mean, you don't want that
<Keybuk> UUID= and LABEL= are the two useful options
<Keybuk> which both refer to filesystem metadata
<Keybuk> if you move the filesystem with dd, or rearrange disks, etc. the UUID/LABEL *follow* the move
<Keybuk> which is pretty much the entire point
<rtg> thats exactly what I like most about UUID
<apw> they are differnt levels of protection for different levels of cost
<cking> the UUID is fs specific, so getting this info out of each fs will require work on each fs driver
 * apw muses that we might be able to use a 'id' as a hint as to where to check the 'uuid' to speed loading
<Keybuk> can't grub just pass a hint to the kernel?
<Keybuk> since it's already doing the work of finding the filesystem with the given UUID?
<apw> when does grub do anything with uuid's?
<cking> Keybuk: grub can do this - it's not a big deal
<rtg> cking: what kind of hint would grub pass?
<cking> apw: grub scans each partition and extracts the UUID and resolves this down to the BIOS drive mapping
<cking> grub only knows the device and partition number - this needs to be mapped to (hdX,Y) - which I am unsure about
<cking> and it does not work for all know file systems
<cking> s/know/known/
 * apw detects detail overload
<rtg> yeah - lets take this offline
<cking> indeed
<pgraner> [ACTION] kernel team to work out the UUID issues
<MootBot> ACTION received:  kernel team to work out the UUID issues
<pgraner> Anything else folks?
<lieb> not from here
<pgraner> [TOPIC] Next weeks meeting....
<MootBot> New Topic:  Next weeks meeting....
<pgraner> Same bat time, same bat channel?
<apw> works for me
<rtg> wfm
<cking> ok
<lieb> yea
<smb_tp> ok
<pgraner> great...
<pgraner> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:49.
<pgraner> Thanks everyone
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 06 Jan 21:00: Community Council | 07 Jan 03:00: America's Council | 07 Jan 16:00: Foundation Team | 07 Jan 17:00: QA Team | 07 Jan 18:00: Edubuntu meeting | 08 Jan 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Community Council Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 07 Jan 03:00: America's Council | 07 Jan 16:00: Foundation Team | 07 Jan 17:00: QA Team | 07 Jan 18:00: Edubuntu meeting | 08 Jan 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team
<mdke> hi sabdfl, Technoviking
<sabdfl> hello everybody
<Technoviking> hello
<sabdfl> my firefox is crashing, can't see the agenda
<mdke> it's empty
<Technoviking> sabdfl: did you file a bug :)
<sabdfl> empty!
<sabdfl> i love this delegation thing
<sabdfl> Technoviking: hoping apport will do it for me soon
<mdke> yes, the membership boards seem to be working well
<Technoviking> :)
<sabdfl> is there anything we'd like to discuss, now that we're here?
<sabdfl> how are the IRC folks shaping up?
 * mdke doesn't know
<sabdfl> i haven't heard anything either way, since the flurry of activity
<sabdfl> when we made the last round of appointments
 * mdke nods
<sabdfl> Technoviking: was there a decision at UDS about creating a "irc members" team?
<mdke> perhaps we can ask the IRC Council to report on progress in a few weeks once the new members have settled in
<sabdfl> +1
<Technoviking> sabdfl: I believe so
<sabdfl> Technoviking: a +1 or -1?
<Technoviking> +1
<sabdfl> same for forums, right?
<mdke> what would the team be made up of?
<mdke> operators?
<Technoviking> yes
<sabdfl> not necessarily, i think we should make it possible to be a respected contributor while not also shouldering ops
<mdke> so what's the point of the team? just recognition of contribution to irc?
<sabdfl> same as the point for ubuntumembers :-)
<jpds> We have an "official" operator team for #ubuntu at: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-irc
<sabdfl> contribution to ubuntu through irc participation
<mdke> ok, so it would be a subgroup of ubuntumembers
<sabdfl> yes, same as ubuntu-dev
<mdke> ok, I suspect you can guess my opinion then :)
<sabdfl> -1?
<sabdfl> "send 'em to the regionals!"
<sabdfl> i hear you from here :-)
<mdke> :)
<mdke> yeah, I think ubuntu membership should be conferred by the membership boards
<sabdfl> from the perspective of "everyone who is interested", surely reporting is the key?
<mdke> I think there are lots of advantages to having the process centralised, now that the centralised process is running smoothly
<mdke> it's probably not the right time to rehash them though, I rant about them often enough
<sabdfl> do you think someone should be an ubuntu-dev without being an ubuntumember?
<sabdfl> i'm just trying to get a sense of whether you think some of the existing functional-delegation bits are broken
<mdke> I'm in two minds whether -dev is a special case or not, I can see the practical convenience of the MOTU Council being able to push that through
<Technoviking> I know some people who like to contribute to Ubuntu without the pressure of being an Ubuntu member
<mdke> Technoviking: that's perfectly possible, either way
<sabdfl> ok, well, let
<mdke> sabdfl: I certainly don't think anything is broken, I just think it would be better to have membership a centralised process
<sabdfl> 's not rehash it here
<Technoviking> some people are not joiner, for various reason
<mdke> +1 for not rehashing the discussion :)
<sabdfl> is there anyone on the FC or IRC-C who is also on a regional membership board, i wonder?
<mdke> I'm happy to be in the minority
<sabdfl> to address consistency?
<mdke> Mike :)
<mdke> not sure about the IRC-C
<alex_mayorga> sabdfl: I'm an ubuntu-mx member in theory
<Rafik> I think elkbuntu is both in IRC-C and Asia Oceania RMB
<Technoviking> well, I think the regional board have a good feel for how the different area in Ubuntu work now, forums,irc, dev, loco, etc...
<mdke> Rafik: good point
<sabdfl> so we have *some* cross coverage
<mdke> Technoviking: yep, they definitely do. It's great to have a mix of backgrounds on those boards
<sabdfl> that's enough for now, let's see how it goes, re-evaluate in a few months, or if it blows up
<mdke> ok
<sabdfl> but for the moment, i'm happy
<mdke> sabdfl: one point we could discuss is whether the existing meeting times for the CC are working, and whether the CC needs a new member to replace Jerome. That has been kicking around the mailing list for a while
<alex_mayorga> err I'm on the Mexico loco, never mind
<Technoviking> sabdfl: I think are working well, +1
<sabdfl> mdke: what's not on the list are nominations :-)
<sabdfl> so let's start with times
<mdke> sabdfl: that's your prerogative
<sabdfl> i'd like to have nominations from the existing CC to consider
<sabdfl> and would discuss them with the CC before proposing them formally
<mdke> sabdfl: as I understand it, you make nominations. But we could discuss whether it's a good idea in principle to have another member on the CC
<sabdfl> yes, i'd like more, and more non-Canonical, ideally too
<sabdfl> let's start with the times
<sabdfl> the TB has stopped trying to cover all timezones
<mdke> ok
<sabdfl> i'm tempted...
<sabdfl> i don't know that our morning slot gets us much love in the far east, as it is
<sabdfl> what do you guys think?
<sabdfl> would a single, day-us-evening-eu time, be better?
<alex_mayorga> what are the other options?
<mdke> I don't really have a view, I've missed so many meetings recently so I don't have a feel for whether people would like different times
<Technoviking> sabdfl: That would work for me, maybe we can be flexible for issues in other timezones
<mdke> I know that I can only make -eu evenings, but I suspect that other members of the CC wouldn't be able to make that time so easily
<sabdfl> alex_mayorga: if we're going to pick a time, we should try to pick one that covers as many tz's as possible
<sabdfl> which usually means evening eu
<sabdfl> given that we're the "buck stops here" point, it seems wrong to have a blanket policy that flat-out doesn't work for someone in australia
<alex_mayorga> morning us works as longs as it is possible to access from behind corporate firewalls, I for one are behind one at that time with no IRC
<sabdfl> we did the regional groups to avoid that
<mdke> yeah, I agree. I think two times is reasonable, and we should be able to cover those with members in different TZs
<mdke> especially if we add a new member or more than one
<Seeker`> i dont think it is possible to get reasonable worldwide coverage with 1 fixed time
<sabdfl> so that would suggest nominations from asiapac, especially, with a plan to do earlier in the morning eu + asia, and evening eu + usa
<mdke> yes, although I guess the nominations shouldn't necessarily be conditional on TZ
<sabdfl> well, we are replacing jerome
<mdke> true
<sabdfl> ok, i'll ask now that we talk on the list about candidates
<sabdfl> i';m not going to do a wider call for them
<sabdfl> anything else?
<Technoviking> nothing here
<mdke> sabdfl: does the TB have enough members? I recall reading about a call for nominations, but that must be a couple of releases back
<sabdfl> we have two candidates, i will o ahead and nominate
<sabdfl> wanted more to do a bakeoff
<mdke> cool
<Technoviking> mdke: I know Matt Z was feeling over worked on the TB
<sabdfl> ok
<sabdfl> thanks all!
<mdke> thanks
<Technoviking> thanks
<sabdfl> night night
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 07 Jan 03:00: America's Council | 07 Jan 16:00: Foundation Team | 07 Jan 17:00: QA Team | 07 Jan 18:00: Edubuntu meeting | 08 Jan 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 08 Jan 13:00: Desktop Team
<blackfate> hi
<PrivateVoid> hello
<PrivateVoid> still about three hours until the meeting
<PrivateVoid> I think
<drubin> @schedule
<ubottu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 07 Jan 03:00: America's Council | 07 Jan 16:00: Foundation Team | 07 Jan 17:00: QA Team | 07 Jan 18:00: Edubuntu meeting | 08 Jan 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 08 Jan 13:00: Desktop Team
<PrivateVoid> woah... lots of schedules
<drubin> I think it is also the topic
<robb_m> drubin: you're correct.
<robb_m> its in the topic.
<robb_m> ubottu changes the topic accordingly :)
<ubottu> Error: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :)
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-01-07
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: America's Council Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 07 Jan 16:00: Foundation Team | 07 Jan 17:00: QA Team | 07 Jan 18:00: Edubuntu meeting | 08 Jan 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 08 Jan 13:00: Desktop Team
 * cody-somerville yawns.
 * Hellow yawns harder
 * nhandler waves
<j1mc> heya nhandler
<nhandler> Hi j1mc
<davidm> hi cody-somerville
<cody-somerville> Hiya
<j1mc> I feel like I should put my hand over my heart when I read the words, "America's Council."  Show respect for my continent and our continent to the south.  :)
<Hellow> lol
<j1mc> It sounds so patriotic "America's Council."
<cody-somerville> We just need a continental anthem now to start our meetings.
<nhandler> That might be hard to do over IRC cody-somerville
<cody-somerville> If we all sing loud enough, we might be able to hear each other.
<persia> Isn't that why we have DCC?
<Hellow> Massive amounts of all cap words?
<nhandler> persia: That won't support live streaming. Maybe we should go to icecast
<j1mc> Oh, Canadaaa... the land of the free, and the home of the brave... Gird, oh country, your brow with olive
<j1mc> the mexican national anthem is pretty hardcore:  http://www.inside-mexico.com/anthem.htm
<vorian> evening
<Hellow> lol
<j1mc> hi vorian
<nhandler> Hey vorian
<vorian> while we are waiting, could all those folks who are up tonight for membership please prepare a brief summary (links would be great)
<vorian> hi j1mc and nhandler :)
<Hellow> Summary as in what?
<jono_> hi all
<PrivateVoid> hello
<cody-somerville> Hi
<nhandler> Hellow: Of your contributions
<Hellow> All my stuff is on my wiki...
<vorian> hiya jono_
<nhandler> Hey jono_
<Rocket2DMn> good evening
<vorian> Hellow: just a quick "hi, i'm <name> this is my wiki <link> this is my lp page <link> this is other cool stuff i do <link>
<Hellow> Ah, ok
<Hellow> I will be following that one to the letter :)
<vorian> :)
<jono> hey vorian nhandler
<vorian> we are waiting for a few more people to show, as soon as they do, we'll get started
<vorian> HI jono!
<jono> :)
<Hellow> Got mine :)
<davidm> OK, I've got mine too
<Hellow> Mine is pretty short, dont expect anything spectacular
 * erichammond is ready
 * Hellow is ready
 * PrivateVoid nods
<Rocket2DMn> vor, i dont see hikaricore, i wonder if he even knows how to use irc
<vorian> sorry for the delay, just need one more person to join the party
<Rocket2DMn> who are we waiting for?
<Hellow> Him
<vor> Rocket2DMn: Dunno
<Rocket2DMn> okie dokie then
<vorian> there are only 3 of us from the membership board here right now
<Rocket2DMn> what a rockin' party
<Hellow> lol
<PrivateVoid> is pleia2 here?
<Rocket2DMn> pleia2, you gonna dance with us or what?
<pleia2> yes :)
<PrivateVoid> cool.
<Rocket2DMn> woot!
<PrivateVoid> hello
<Rocket2DMn> how were your holidays pleia2 ?
<andresmujica> hi! good night!
<pleia2> Rocket2DMn: nice, thank you, yours?
<Rocket2DMn> pretty good, i was in CA for a few days
<Rocket2DMn> you watch that rose bowl game :)
<pleia2> nah
<Rocket2DMn> probably for the best, hehe
<Rocket2DMn> i got sick starting the day after though, i was wiped out for 3 full days and then some
<vorian> for those intersted, this would be tonights agenda https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/Americas
<pleia2> Rocket2DMn: yikes, that's lousy
<Rocket2DMn> yeah really, im still working on getting back to 100%
<Hellow> ouch
<vorian> alrighty!
<pleia2> hurrah, eightyeight!
<PrivateVoid> Hey 88
<vorian> PrivateVoid: you are up!
<PrivateVoid> pleia2, this is the eightyeight you were telling me about, heh?
<eightyeight> sorry i'm late. 2nd day on the job
<PrivateVoid> My name is PrivateVoid (aka Charles) this is my wiki page:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PrivateVoid and this is my lp page: https://launchpad.net/~privatevoid. I work as a System Adminsitrator is a K-12 school disrict. I contribute some time and effort to supporting FOSS at the following sites - http://community.k12opensource.com/ and http://www.classroom20.com/ in addition to other various social networking sites. My hobbies are phot
<PrivateVoid> ography, programming, and computer security and forensices. I have been using Linux for two years at home and have been around the edges since SUSE was released (1993 I think if memory serves). I am looking forward to contributing more to Ubuntu and FOSS. I feel like Bachelor #3 tonight. Questions?
<vorian> New York LoCo eh?
<PrivateVoid> Yes, the NY LoCO
<PrivateVoid> it draws breath again
<PrivateVoid> :-)
<vorian> how's the team doing?
<TheDukeNY> whoohoo go NY LoCo
<Vantrax> Love the work your doing in the education side of the Beginners Team PV
<PrivateVoid> The team is growing slowly... vorian... we have some activity in New City, Syracuse, Potsdam (new person) and Rochester
<PrivateVoid> thanks Vantrax
<vorian> hi MikeB
<MikeB> Hi
<PrivateVoid> To be honest I hope we accomplish much more with BT EDU
<vorian> PrivateVoid: i can see that would be challenging, large land area to cover
<cody-somerville> PrivateVoid, There are a number of ways to contribute to Ubuntu. What would you say is the primary way you make a difference in the Ubuntu project?
<PrivateVoid> It is... and with four major cities (I call them major) it tends to clump people
<MikeB> Ircing on my iPhone wish me luck
<vorian> MikeB: (i hope with iSSH)
<PrivateVoid> cody-somerville, Evangelizing and spreading the word
<MikeB> Nope
<PrivateVoid> I am not up to speed with programming yet, so my efforts have been focused on working with new members and growing the NY LoCo
<pleia2> MikeB: we managed to snag eightyeight to get quorum, so if it's too much trouble we're cool
<vorian> I can attest to the work PrivateVoid has done on the forums and BT.  He does a wonderful job.
<PrivateVoid> I also want to eventually get involved in bug triage, but the BT and NY LoCo have taken the front seat
<PrivateVoid> and I see that trend continuing for a while at least
<PrivateVoid> three kids only allow so much time for such things
<pleia2> and I've worked with PrivateVoid on getting the NY Team up and going again, very motivated, AND we've worked together on getting the beginners team classroom sessions off the ground
<pleia2> great work :)
<Hellow> I think you do great work in all areas, PrivateVoid :)
<vorian> any one here to cheer for PrivateVoid?
<PrivateVoid> pleia2, we have three scheduled
<nhandler> o/
<Rocket2DMn> GO PV!
<Hellow> What he said :)
<TheDukeNY> I am
 * TheDukeNY cheers
<nhandler> PrivateVoid has done a great job with the BT Education FG, and it really shows. Great job PrivateVoid
<cody-somerville> PrivateVoid, Contributions of that nature can sometimes be hard to measure. What do you feel are the best indicators of a sustained and significant contributions via evangelizing?
<PrivateVoid> cody-somerville, to be honest the fact that the NY team is holding events again and getting people who were kind of depressed re-motivated
<TheDukeNY> As a member of NY LoCo I may also say he is a very motivated person, excellent, hard working, strongly driven, motivated, well educated, etc.
<nhandler> cody-somerville: His work with the BT Education group can be seen here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/FocusGroups/Education/Events. He has several events lined up already.
<PrivateVoid> In addition to that we have seen a huge amount of growth with the BT though much of that success goes to the team as a whole and I just played a role in that as a team member
<PrivateVoid> you can also see the NY Team newsletter
<cody-somerville> Do you have a link for the NY Team newsletters?
<PrivateVoid> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NewYorkTeam/Newsletter/Issue1
<PrivateVoid> its our first issue... and has a way to go before it will be what we need... but it is a start
<PrivateVoid> If I am lucky I may even be able to get a 'test' lab put in with Linux in the school district I work in...
<PrivateVoid> which could help a great deal IMHO
<cody-somerville> PrivateVoid, Do you feel the NY Team is integrated well with greater Ubuntu Community? Also, do you feed your content in your newsletter upstream to the UWN Folks for inclusion in the Ubuntu Weekly Newsletter when appropriate?
<PrivateVoid> that experience could then be used as a template for others to follow
<vorian> well said
<PrivateVoid> cody-somerville, I have contributed some of the content to UWN (though not with that first newsletter)... I think the NY LoCo has some growth to do to be a true part of the greater community... but we need to grow locally a bit more before that will be 'felt'
 * Vantrax would like to acknowladge the work PrivateVoid does to get new users integreating into the community
<PrivateVoid> We are trying to get all the four regions we have activity in to participate in the Global bug jam... but that would just be a start
<PrivateVoid> The Newsletter is also not my work alone
<PrivateVoid> daradib, a new NY LoCo member has put it together
<cody-somerville> PrivateVoid, Keeping us all connected is important and I'm excited to hear that you feel the same way. I'd encourage you to work with the UWN on your newsletter so that everyone can benefits and read the great content you produce.
<PrivateVoid> and I would only take credit for asking people to take that bull by the horn and contributing a few things to it
<PrivateVoid> delegation will be the key in growing a LoCo IMHO
<pleia2> absolutely
<cody-somerville> indeed
 * deejoe nods
<cody-somerville> +1 for great work in the community and his loco team
 * TheDukeNY nods
<pleia2> +1
<pleia2> excellent work PrivateVoid :)
<MikeB> +1
<vorian> +1 from me as well, wonder job all the way around
<PrivateVoid> I work with Tyche alot so I intend to assist with the UWN
<PrivateVoid> thanks, pleia2
<PrivateVoid> and vorian
<eightyeight> +1 on ny loco work
<vorian> congrats PrivateVoid, and welcome aboard
 * PrivateVoid smiles
<PrivateVoid> thanks everyone
<cody-somerville> PrivateVoid, Congratulations PrivateVoid and welcome aboard. It was pleasure meeting you this evening.
<nhandler> Congrats PrivateVoid. You deserve it
<Rocket2DMn> congratulations PrivateVoid !
<robbmunson> Congrats dude
<Hellow> Nicely done PrivateVoid
<robbmunson> im glad i made it in time ;)
<PrivateVoid> is there some next step I must take?
<PrivateVoid> LP or other?
 * Vantrax cheers PV
<vorian> vor, you're up!
<vor> Ok
<cody-somerville> PrivateVoid, you'll be notified by e-mail when you've been added to the ubuntumembers team within the next 24 hours.
<vor> Hola.  My name is Shaun Dennie.  I'm a long time Unix hacker and have been an Ubuntu user since 5.10.  My wiki page can be found here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ShaunDennie and my forums page can be found here http://ubuntuforums.org/member.php?u=217315
<vor> I'm a moderator for the Ubuntu forums and an active member of the forums Beginner Team in IRC.  Since early 2008, I generally spend several hours a day helping people on the Ubuntu forums.
<vor> I'm also a member of the Argentina LoCo.  My official duties for the Argentina LoCo include helping people on the forums, helping people at open source gatherings and arguing about fÃºtbol.
<vor> I've really enjoyed being part of the community and would like to take the next step to get even more involved.
<Sajnox> Hi! My name is Miguel Sajnovsky, I'm an ubuntu member since last november and I'm here to support Vor. What I would like to mention about him is how much he loves to help newcomers, always giving support and showing in a very humble way how much does he know about ubuntu. I understand that he trully feels the spirit of being an ubuntu member. https://launchpad.net/~miguel.sajnovsky
<eightyeight> vor: nice testimonials on your wiki
<vor> Thank you
<nhandler> Vor is never afraid to help new users. Most users are only confident enough to help out when they have other people around to back them up. On countless occassions, I have seen vor helping people on IRC alone. He just kept working with them until the problem was solved.
<pleia2> vor: great work on the forums, do you see yourself expanding your work from there into other portions of ubuntu? or have other general future goals?
<cody-somerville> vor, It seems you help out a lot by helping answer questions. Its great to see you've created a number of tutorials on popular topics. :) What is one question you get asked more than any other?
<vor> pleia2: For a while now I've been thinking about become a developer actually.  I haven't decided what specific direction I want to go with it (probably kernel or something low level) so I've been putting it off until I've decided.  I imagine sometime this year I'll start writing code again.
<vor> cody-somerville: "I just installed 4G of RAM and Ubuntu only sees 3G.  What's wrong?"
<cody-somerville> Wow. Thats unexpected.
<vor> cody-somerville: Almost all my tutorials are question driven.  If I answer a question enough, I write a formal tutorial to point people at.
<cody-somerville> vor, Do you have any plans on moving them to the community help wiki?
<vor> cody-somerville: It's not something I'd thought of yet.  One of the reasons I enjoy writing tutorials on the forums is the interactive nature of it.  People may have questions or problems with the tutorial and it's easy to help them on the forums.
 * cody-somerville nods.
<vorian> Although I could just growl at vor, I do have to admit that he is a wonderful Staffer on Ubuntu Forums - and does great work with the Beginners Team.
<vor> Having said that, I wouldn't mind making them wikis.  I've been talking to some of the Argentina LoCo members and they are interested in helping me translate a few of them to Spanish as well.
<cody-somerville> vor, Do you have any experience with Launchpad Answers? If so, what do you feel could be done to help improve the experience?
<vor> cody-somerville: I've only encountered it briefly with google searches so, I'm not familiar enough with it to know what could be improved.
<vorian> I'm happy to give you a +1! keep up the great work
 * PrivateVoid support Vor
<pleia2> +1 from me too, amazing forums work and it's very exciting to hear you may want to become a dev :)
 * Rocket2DMn is here for vor!
 * Hellow also supports vor
<MikeB> Vor is a great mod on the forums. I give him a strong +1
 * nhandler gives Vor his support
<eightyeight> +1 on good forums activity
<cody-somerville> +1 for contributions on the forums. Keep on doing a great job writing tutorials. I know from experience that they make life for folks so much easier :)
 * Vantrax is here for Vor
<jono> sorry folks, I hate to interrupt, but I have a call coming up, and I just wanted to pledge my support for davidm's application
<jono> just in case I am on the call
<pleia2> jono: no problem, thanks!
<MikeB> Thank jono
<jono> he is an excellent contributor, I noted my support on his application
<jono> thanks folks!
<vorian> nn jono
<cody-somerville> vor, Congratulations and welcome aboard!
<vor> Thanks!
<Rocket2DMn> woohoo! congrats vor !
<Sajnox> Congrats Vor!!! (This San Lorenzo will be winning the next championship?)
<Hellow> Congrats vor
<nhandler> Congrats vor
<vor> Thanks everyone for your support too
<Sajnox> *This means ??
<vor> Sajnox: Let's hope.  ;)
<pleia2> Rocket2DMn: you're up!
<Rocket2DMn> alrighty
<cody-somerville> vor, You'll be notified by e-mail when you've been added to the ubuntumembers launchpad team within the next 24-48 hours or so. If you have a blog, be sure to add it to the planet :)
<Rocket2DMn> Hello, my name is Connor Imes aka Rocket2DMn.  My wiki page can be found here - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Rocket2DMn and launchpad here - https://launchpad.net/~rocket2dmn
<Rocket2DMn> I'm a software engineer by trade, was born/raised/educated in CA but now live and work in PA.  I've been using Ubuntu since Feisty and have been actively contributing since day 1.  Notable areas of contribution are the forums (especially the Beginners Team and as Staff), wiki documentation, and launchpad bug triaging.  I really enjoy spreading my time between the different areas, and each is so different that I get to learn a lot in t
<Rocket2DMn> he process as well.
<Rocket2DMn> Through my Ubuntu adventures, I've also been blessed to work directly with a number of the people on the this council (vorian, MikeB, and pleia2) and some of today's membership candidates (PrivateVoid, vor, hikaricore, and Hellow)!
<pleia2> also, beer :d
<Rocket2DMn> beer++
<Rocket2DMn> it played a major role along the way, pleia2 !
<pleia2> :)
 * Vantrax has had help from Rocket2DMn on Launchpad several times. Yay Rocket2DMn
<nhandler> I have spent a lot of time with Rocket2DMn. Although he spends time in many areas, his contributions are significant and significant in all of them. He has triaged all sorts of bugs on Launchpad, worked hard to clean up the wiki over the summer (and keeps the BT wiki pages up-to-date), and is very active on the forums and on IRC. He has my complete support
 * Hellow supports Rocket2DMn 100%
<PrivateVoid> I agree nhandler he was very active in the 'summer of documentation' project
<cody-somerville> Rocket2DMn, any plans to get involved in development efforts?
<Rocket2DMn> cody-somerville, perhaps sometime down the road, it's stepping into a whole other domain that i already spend time on at work (sometimes), and there could be legal issues that arise because of work that i dont want to think about yet
<cody-somerville> Rocket2DMn, The FocusGroup wiki pages look pretty snazzy
 * nhandler notes that PrivateVoid created the nice headers
<PrivateVoid> I actually borrowed the core of it from the Mass / AZ teams and modified them with Rocket2DMn's approval and we did them together
<Rocket2DMn> i had help from PrivateVoid and other team members to build up our Beginners Team wiki as well, most of the actual Focus Group pages are mad by the group leaders.  i run the Wiki FG - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/FocusGroups/Wiki
<pleia2> Rocket2DMn: your future plans page is slightly abandoned (becoming a member is on there for "someday"), want to take a look and see if there is anything you'd like to add?
<Rocket2DMn> PrivateVoid, made those sexy headers
<pleia2> s/page/section
<Hellow> smexy
<Rocket2DMn> pleia2, as of right now, i want to maintain my level of contribution, since i moved across the country and started work ive been happy to simply maintain.  I'm always trying to learn more about the different domain to which i contribute though.
<Rocket2DMn> I'd like to get better and troubleshooting and triaging certain areas, like kernel, wireless, and video
<pleia2> Rocket2DMn: any interest in getting involved with the US-PA loco team? :)
<Rocket2DMn> pleia2, I'm trying my best to attend the nearest meetings, and hopefully any events that pop up
<Rocket2DMn> i wish i had been there for the Intrepid party, but i was in CA
<pleia2> great
<pleia2> yeah :)
<PrivateVoid> including the cross-border NY-PA meet up; right?
<pleia2> hehe
<Rocket2DMn> heck yeah PrivateVoid , just tell us what bar
<vorian> i'm happy to +1 Rocket2DMn, great stuff!
<Vantrax> lol
<pleia2> +1 Rocket2DMn, excellent work :)
<cody-somerville> +1 for great work on the forums and also peer feedback
<MikeB> +1
<eightyeight> +1 from me
 * PrivateVoid using Google maps to choose the bar....
<PrivateVoid> :-
<vorian> congrats Rocket2DMn! and welcome aboard :)
<Rocket2DMn> Thanks everyone for your +1s and my buddies for your support :)
<PrivateVoid> congrats Rocket2DMn!!
<Rocket2DMn> ty vorian
<Hellow> Grats Rocket2DMn
<tim_sharitt> Congrats Rocket2DMn
<nhandler> Congrats Rocket2DMn !
<cody-somerville> Rocket2DMn, Be sure to add your blog, if you have one, to the planet once you've been added to the ubuntumembers launchpad group.
<Rocket2DMn> =D
<vor> Congrats Rocket2DMn
<PrivateVoid> cody-somerville, you want the blogs to be FOSS or Ubuntu related correct?
<PrivateVoid> I have five... but only two are tech related
<vorian> it seems hikaricore is not here...
<vorian> erichammond: your up!
<erichammond> Hi, My name is Eric Hammond. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EricHammond and https://launchpad.net/~esh
<erichammond> My primary contributions to Ubuntu so far are the building, maintaining, documenting, promoting, and supporting of public virtual machine images for running Ubuntu on Amazon EC2 (Elastic Compute Cloud) which I have been doing since late 2007.
<erichammond> I have been fostering an Ubuntu on EC2 community which is around 700 registered members and growing (number of readers beyond that is not clear).
<erichammond> I have also been working with Canonical the last few months in an advisory and testing capacity as the new official Ubuntu images are being built and released for EC2.
<jono> btw, back now
<vorian> erichammond: i'm a little confused at your first testimonial
<vorian> is it missing or is the link bad?
<erichammond> Mark Shuttleworth generously offered the following testimonial for sharing with the membership board:
<erichammond> "Eric has made a sustained and substantial contribution to the Ubuntu community through his work on EC2. His Ubuntu images for Amazon EC2, and his leadership of the community that is growing up around Ubuntu on EC2, easily warrant membership in my opinion. I very much appreciate the time that he has put into this initiative, and think it will be very important work in growing the community of people who work wi
<vorian> (it was cut off at "community of people who work w")
<vorian> :)
<erichammond> ...community of people who work with Ubuntu on the server in 2009."
<vorian> thanks!
<cody-somerville> erichammond, Were you at UDS Jaunty?
<erichammond> cody-somerville: Yes, I flew myself up for one day.
<cody-somerville> erichammond, What sort of EC2 initiatives are you involved with for Jaunty?
<erichammond> It was great to meet the Ubuntu server team folks I'd been working with online.
<erichammond> Two directions: I build images myself for EC2 and Jaunty is included in them
<erichammond> You can see the complete list here: http://alestic.com
<eightyeight> erichammond: where is mark's testimonial documented?
<erichammond> I also support the server team in the development of vmbuilder and the official Ubuntu images for EC2.  At the moment that effort is focused on Intrepid, but it should work transparently for Jaunty as well.
<cody-somerville> erichammond, do you have anyone here from the Server team to root for you?
<erichammond> eightyeight: He sent it to me in email.
<cody-somerville> :)
<cody-somerville> erichammond, would you be able to forward the e-mail to our mailing list?
<erichammond> cody-somerville: Based on the phrasing I assumed the rest of the email was private and I would not feel comfortable doing so without his permission.
<cody-somerville> erichammond, No problem.
<erichammond> I can check with him, but I'm guessing now is not a good time.
<vorian> I'm happy to +1
<cody-somerville> erichammond, don't worry about it
<vorian> EC2 is really cool stuff, and I'm happy to see what progress is being made there
<eightyeight> +1 here
<cody-somerville> +1 from me as well. I'm excited to see more EC2 yummyness in the future.
<pleia2> +1 from me, great work on EC2 :)
<MikeB> +1
<vorian> erichammond: congrats! and welcome aboard!
<erichammond> Thank you all!
<cody-somerville> Congratulations
<vorian> erichammond: no, thank you for your contributions :)
<cody-somerville> erichammond, Please be sure to add your blog, if you have one, to the planet once you've been added to the ubuntumembers launchpad group!! :)
<nhandler> Congrats erichammond !
<pleia2> andresmujica: you're up :)
<andresmujica> :)
<andresmujica> Hi, first of all, i want to apologize for not attending last meeting, to be honest i was confused about the date and didn't make it in time. It was too late when i got connected. Sorry about that.
<andresmujica> My name is Andres Mujica, my wiki page is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AndresMujica  my launchpad page is https://edge.launchpad.net/~andres-mujica and my LinkedIn profile is at http://www.linkedin.com/in/andresmauriciomujica. I'm an Ubuntu user since Warty, full time Linux user since RH 7.1 and Linux "concious" since slackware -no idea which one- around '95.
<pleia2> no problem
<andresmujica> I've earned the RHCE and DCAP certifications, and hopefully would pursue the Ubuntu ones this year.
<andresmujica> My main contribution to Ubuntu is at Bug triaging as member of the bugsquad (i.e. https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/cheese/+bug/290506 ) and im in queue for bugcontrol membership (there are some aplications unreviewed, mine between those). Also i've made some small contribs to the wiki aMy main contribution to Ubuntu is at Bug triaging as member of the bugsquad (i.e. https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/cheese/+bug/290506 ) and im
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 290506 in ubuntu-release-notes "cheese malfunctioning with UVCVIDEO webcams (was cheese doesn't show v4l2 video output and disables output on gstreamer-based apps ran afterwards)" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<andresmujica> upps
<vorian> haha
<andresmujica> that mouse!!!!
<andresmujica> i was wondering how did i've managed to get that long!!!
<andresmujica> Made some Ubuntu migrations at seat level for customers at the company i work at.
<eightyeight> andresmujica: just being thorough here, but i noticed you are a bug squad member since 2006, but i only see bug karma since 2008?
<andresmujica> yes, i've made some work at the beginning but was consumed by work.
<andresmujica> Since last year i've managed to get at least weekends and some hours at night to work on it..
<eightyeight> andresmujica: what do you plan on doing with ubuntu in the future? where do you see yourself making the greatest amount of contributions?
<andresmujica> well, i like a lot triaging beacuse i believe it's the best way to help the Ubuntu community, making things work.
<andresmujica> so my efforts would be in that direction.
<andresmujica> Probably i'll cover also server issues as that market grows with Ubuntu.
<vorian> andresmujica: what have you done since last we met?
<vorian> :)
<andresmujica> mostly triaging, and made an addon to a wiki page
<vorian> you really have done great with the bugs
<andresmujica> recolecting the webcam bugs that were around affectng intrepid users.
<andresmujica> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Webcam#Intrepid/Updated%20Hardy%20current%20issues%20with%20webcams
<andresmujica> http://daniel.holba.ch/5-a-day-stats/   (triaging stats!! ;)
<andresmujica> i would love to find ways to integrate more the forums with bug reports
<andresmujica> as the bug trends start arising at the forums
<Vantrax> thats a great idea
<andresmujica> and then go to launchpad
<andresmujica> yeap,
<andresmujica> is the easist way to found bugs and dupes.
<Rocket2DMn> forums and bug reports are an awesome combo
<cody-somerville> andresmujica, Do you have anyone here to cheer for you?
<persia> I'd like to speak in support of andresmujica 's triaging activity: he not only hits lots of bugs, but tends to ask insightful questions that lead to resolution.
<cody-somerville> persia, :)
<andresmujica> :)
<andresmujica> thks!
<Vantrax> after that last suggestion im cheering
<vorian> anyone else here to cheer for andresmujica? :)
 * andresmujica wants to cheer too!
<robb_away> go get em bud, bugs are a great way to go :)
<Hellow> yep
<vorian> +1 from me, great improments. Thanks for your contributions!
<andresmujica> thanks to you vorian!
<pleia2> +1
<MikeB> +1
<andresmujica> :)
<cody-somerville> +0
<eightyeight> +1 here.
<pleia2> congrats andresmujica :)
<vorian> congrats andresmujica! welcome aboard :)
<andresmujica> !!!
<andresmujica> wow!
<andresmujica> thanks!!
<nhandler> Congrats andresmujica
<vorian> awesome
<Rocket2DMn> congrats man
<andresmujica> thanks to you all!!
<robb_away> congrats :D
<Hellow> grats
<andresmujica> :-D
<pleia2> davidm: you're up :)
<davidm> Hi I'm David Mandala (davidm) this is my wikki page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DavidMandala, and my lp page https://launchpad.net/~davidm
<davidm> I'm a generalist, computer and electronics geek, I do some coding, some  evangelizing, I explain Ubuntu Mobile Linux and why getting your device running with it is a good thing ;-) and a bunch of other stuff, it's listed on my wiki page.  I like to get "stuff" done. ;-)
<davidm> I tend to do things to and with: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam
<cody-somerville> davidm, Why did you choose to get involved with Ubuntu?
<davidm> I have been involved with Linux for a long time, I've tried most distros one time or another.
<davidm> I liked RedHat for a while until they choose to drop their community and I eventually landed with Debian
<eightyeight> davidm: _nice_ testimonials
<davidm> But Debian was too slow,
<davidm> you either had to use stable (years old) or testing (not bad but iffy) or unstable (very unstable)
<davidm> Then Ubuntu came on the seen and I tried it, it was everything good I liked about Debian but far far less pain
<davidm> Stuff that I could convert my wife too :-)
<davidm> eightyeight, thanks
<davidm> It let me show people the goodness of Linux with out the pain of most of the distros
<davidm> So I jumped in with both feet, then wanted to do more
<eightyeight> davidm: is most of work work with the mobile team, or are you focused elsewhere?
<davidm> I'm mostly focused on mobile as I've spent a great deal of time in the embedded space and I see the mobile space as a brand new playing field,
<davidm> I assist other teams as I can but focus mostly on Ubuntu mobile.
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 07 Jan 16:00: Foundation Team | 07 Jan 17:00: QA Team | 07 Jan 18:00: Edubuntu meeting | 08 Jan 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 08 Jan 13:00: Desktop Team | 08 Jan 14:00: Ubuntu Java
<eightyeight> davidm: where do you want to see ubuntu mobile in the future?
<davidm> I'm a lucky man, I get to work on my hobby and help make changes that will be felt by lots of folks
<cody-somerville> davidm, Where do you see Ubuntu Mobile in 2 years?
<eightyeight> cody-somerville: copycat. :)
<davidm> I want to see it running on ARM, Atom, and smaller devices, not necessarily phones but new classes of mobile devices that are coming.
<Rocket2DMn> are we going to see uPhones?
<robb_away> +1 Rocket2DMn, if so i want one ;)
<Hellow> lol
<davidm> I see it on all ARM netbooks, many Atom netbooks and other places yet to be defined
<davidm> Long term we will see some interesting things in the phone space I suspect with Ubuntu
<davidm> but not today, it's too soon
<eightyeight> davidm: +1 from me on the mobile team. i'm excited to see its future
<davidm> The market is growing at a pace that is insane and it's going to be exciting to be part of it.
<davidm> eightyeight, thanks
<cody-somerville> Anyone here to cheer for davidm?
<MikeB> +1
 * jono waves
<eightyeight> we did have jono
<cody-somerville> :)
<davidm> jono, was/is :-)
<jono> davidm is a great Ubuntu contributor
<davidm> Some of the others are in the EU so this meeting was too late for them.
<pleia2> +1 for exciting mobile work, thank you!
<vorian> +1 from me
<cody-somerville> +1 for great work with Ubuntu Mobile and impressive peer feedback.
<vorian> (i'd like kde on my iphone please)
<Rocket2DMn> /facepalms
<robb_away> hehe
<Hellow> heh
<davidm> vorian, I like the google G1 phone better but I agree.
<cody-somerville> davidm, Please be sure to add your blog, if you have one, to the Ubuntu planet once you've been added to the ubuntumembers team on launchpad :)
<davidm> thanks everyone
<nhandler> Congrats davidm !
<paultag> grats davidm
<Hellow> yep, gratz
<cody-somerville> Congratulations davidm
<vorian> :)
<davidm> cody-somerville, thanks, now I can go off to LCA to speak as an Ubuntu member ;-)
<cody-somerville> :)
<vorian> ok Hellow! you're up!
<Hellow> ok
<Hellow> Hello, i'm Collin Pruitt, my wiki is at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Hellow, my Launchpad page is at https://launchpad.net/~hellow. I am a middle school student. I work mainly in IRC, although I frequent the forums, wiki, and Launchpad. I am involved with the game Netrek, possibly the first team-based internet game. I work as a part-time developer there. Their website is here: http://www.netrek.org/. I plan on becoming involved with Compiz and Comp
<Hellow> iz++, and learning C++ and more Python. I mainly work with computer hardware, although I am also good at networking/IT. I have been using Linux for at or just over 2 years now, and enjoying it all the way. I have worked with PrivateVoid, vorian, vor, and Rocket2DMn, all from the Beginners Team.
<cody-somerville> w00t I love Netrek!
<Hellow> heh
<Hellow> Do you play it often?
<cody-somerville> Not in a year or two
<cody-somerville> But I'd love to get playing again
<cody-somerville> :)
<Hellow> They have a IRC channel called #netrek
<paultag> Hellow also is a member of our Development team in the Ubuntu Forums Beginners Team
<cody-somerville> What does the development team do?
 * vorian chuckles at "irc #3 /msg Hellow"
<paultag> cody-somerville, we help teach the basics of development ( coding with a team, subversion etc. ) we also handle any team dev work ( websites etc )
<Hellow> He described it well :)
<cody-somerville> paultag, Is Hellow an active member?
<cody-somerville> paultag, What would you say is your primary means of contributing to Ubuntu?
<paultag> cody-somerville, yes. he is in our sub channel. He is there to throw his opinion around if not as much as myself ( as the leader ), pretty damn close
<paultag> cody-somerville, we move members to become MOTU
<paultag> cody-somerville, and no I am not MOTU
 * cody-somerville nods.
<Hellow> My promary means of contributing is IRC, since it is the most accessible for me at times
<vorian> Hellow: what is a goal you have this year, in regards to ubuntu contribuions?
<Hellow> I intend to become more active in all areas of Ubuntu
<Hellow> Wiki, Forums, LP, etc.
 * cody-somerville nods.
<Rocket2DMn> Hellow, if you have any specific areas of interest, I think they would like to know those.
<vorian> Hellow: any specific area?
<vorian> Rocket2DMn: ++
<Hellow> Mainly the forums, as that is another area I am good at
<cody-somerville> Hellow, CAn you provide us with a link to your forum profile?
<Hellow> Sure, sec
<Hellow> http://ubuntuforums.org/member.php?u=440413
<cody-somerville> Hellow, Well, it appears you've became quite active in the last little while. However, we usual look for both sustained and significant contribution when approving new Ubuntu Members.
<eightyeight> Hellow: how long have you been using ubuntu?
<Hellow> At or just over 2 years
<cody-somerville> Hellow, whats been your favourite release thus far?
<Hellow> cody-somerville: Hardy, it is the most stable out of them all IMHO
<eightyeight> Hellow: since dapper then? what would you say would be the #1 improvement ubuntu can make?
<Hellow> eightyeight: Probably faster package updating
<eightyeight> Hellow: with apt/dpkg?
<Hellow> eightyeight: yes
<eightyeight> Hellow: do you see yourself fitting in well to help make that a realization? maybe development? or bug testing?
<Hellow> eightyeight: Pretty well, I am good at rooting out bugs in software
<Hellow> I also see need for improvement in Ubuntu's boot time
<eightyeight> Hellow: looking over your application, we're going to want to see a bit more before putting in our support. get into bug work, or development, as well as help out in the forums and irc. keep it doc'd, and you're well on your way to approval
<Hellow> ok, thanks :)
<pleia2> keep up the good work Hellow :)
<eightyeight> i think you have a roadmap to follow, and you seem to have the heart to make it happen. keep it up
<vorian> thanks for your contributions Hellow, we look forward to seeing you again soon.
<cody-somerville> Hellow, thanks for coming out tonight Hellow. Hopefully we can play a game of Netrek soon! :)
<Hellow> Heh, ok, thanks guys :)
<cody-somerville> Hellow, Is Netrek GPL?
<Hellow> its under a BSD-ish license
<cody-somerville> Hellow, I'd be happy to help you get Netrek into the Ubuntu archive then :)
<Hellow> I think it already is
<Hellow> netrek-client-cow should be in
 * cody-somerville doesn't see it but then again he is on Hardy
<cody-somerville> Hellow, ah, its in Jaunty
<Hellow> ah, wait, for jaunty it is in :)
<Rocket2DMn> hehe yeah i just checked, it is only in jaunty
<cody-somerville> We should bug NCommander to backport it to Hardy :)
<nhandler> What is the source package called? I'm not seeing it in rmadison
<NCommander> uh oh ...
 * NCommander runs from the crackports
<cody-somerville> nhandler, netrek-client-cow in multiverse
<nhandler> cody-somerville: Ok, now I see it
<Hellow> nhandler: not sure, I was not the person that put it in, a Debian package manager did it
<cody-somerville> Anyhow, thanks to everyone for coming out tonight. I believe this concludes this meeting! :)
<Rocket2DMn> Cool, thank you to the council for your time
<nhandler> Hellow: Barry deFreese put it in debian ;)
<andresmujica> thanks !!!
<cody-somerville> Congratulations to everyone and big thanks for your work to help make Ubuntu and the Ubuntu community rock!
<MikeB>  later all
<andresmujica> Ubuntu rocks!!
<Rocket2DMn> it's past my bedtime, no way i'm getting up at 6am tomorrow
<Hellow> later
<andresmujica> good night!
<vorian> !info netrek-client-cow jaunty
<ubottu> netrek-client-cow (source: netrek-client-cow): client for netrek online game. In component multiverse, is optional. Version 3.2.8-1 (jaunty), package size 198 kB, installed size 616 kB
<vorian> fwiw
<vorian> :)
<nhandler> Wait, if it is under the bsd, why is it in multiverse?
<persia> Because of some miscellaneous issues that are leftover because it's *so* old.
<persia> Upstream is working on it actively, in cooperation with the Games team.
<robb_away> That was a good meeting guys..i'll be back! (and yeah that was my 'im gonna be back on that list' kind of back)
<davidm> thanks again everyone
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Foundation Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 07 Jan 17:00: QA Team | 07 Jan 18:00: Edubuntu meeting | 08 Jan 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 08 Jan 13:00: Desktop Team | 08 Jan 14:00: Ubuntu Java
<evand> hi
<cjwatson> gute nachmittag
<robbiew> ?
<liw> hi
 * mvo waves
<cjwatson> ("good afternoon")
<james_w> hello
<robbiew> hi all
<robbiew> let's get this thing rollin!
<robbiew> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:01. The chair is robbiew.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<TheMuso> Hey folks.
<slangasek> morning
<robbiew> good EARLY morning TheMuso
<robbiew> I've posted the agenda here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/Meetings/2009/0107
<doko__> hi
<robbiew> sorry for not sending out via email...slipped through the cracks...of my mind
<robbiew> [TOPIC] Release Manager Backup(s)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Release Manager Backup(s)
<robbiew> so our good citizen, Steve, has been called to jury duty
<robbiew> well..at least to selection
<liw> robbiew, Steve Langasek?
<slangasek> yeah
<robbiew> he could be gone for 30+ days, if selected
<robbiew> and we won't know until after this friday
<robbiew> obviously, we need a contingency plan if he's selected
<robbiew> and cjwatson has enough on his plate....:)
<liw> all the people well suited for this probably have a lot on their plates already
<robbiew> this is true
<mvo> maybe it can be a shared thing?
<mvo> someone still need to lead it of course
<robbiew> yes...I'm thinking that's the correct approach
<robbiew> mvo^
<cjwatson> it can and should be shared if possible, but as you say somebody needs to have prime responsibility otherwise things have a habit of slipping through cracks
<liw> so what stuff exactly does the backup RM(s) need to do?
<cjwatson> there are two major sets of things happening while Steve's away
<cjwatson> one is jaunty alphas 3 and 4
<cjwatson> the other is Ubuntu 8.04.2
<cjwatson> MilestoneProcess and PointReleaseProcess respectively outline the tasks that need to be performed
<cjwatson> I would suggest that, if Steve's selected, different people ought to take charge of those two tasks, since they will have other things they'll need to be doing at the same time
<robbiew> and I assume certain access rights to the archive are needed
<robbiew> +1
<cjwatson> not so vital for the milestones, I'd say, but it would be quite tedious driving .2 without being an archive admin
<doko__> I can help out with cd size control, but I'm not memeber of ubuntu-archive
<mvo> I can help with the milestone stuff, but I'm not archive admin
<liw> looks to me like the point release stuff is the more critical of these -- it'd be bad to screw up an LTS update
<robbiew> indeed
<robbiew> who here has archive admin...besides slangasek and cjwatson?
<mvo> lts-update> I can (and will) do upgrade testing
<robbiew> Keybuk?...do you?...are you even here? :P
<cjwatson> I would be happy to induct one more archive admin for this on condition that the person in question takes on a significant chunk of archive admin load in general
<Keybuk> I do, but I'm somewhat out of date to the mechanics of it
<Keybuk> I most notably don't have access to the CD Image machines
<cjwatson> cdimage is an easier group to add people to, and also relatively easy for somebody to teleoperate (i.e. you could get a cdimage slave to do things for you)
<TheMuso> I have some cdimage experience, since I've played with it locally, but I don't feel up to offering my help to do any of these release related tasks.
<cjwatson> I am entirely happy to be teleoperated by people during my normal hours
<evand> I might be a suitable slave.
<robbiew> ok, so let's do this: Keybuk and mvo can work on the LTS..with Keybuk taking lead
<robbiew> evand and doko take the Jaunty alphas
<evand> I'm not an archive admin, if that's required.
<slangasek> aside from the LTS publishing proper, which it's conceivable I might be able to make myself available for, the main point release management tasks to be addressed are: chasing the list of outstanding SRUs from http://people.ubuntu.com/~ubuntu-archive/pending-sru.html and getting everything into -updates that should be (in particular, the kernel, though I might finish that up this week); following up with QA regarding hardware recertification; g
<cjwatson> cut off at "recertification; g"
<Keybuk> robbiew: when is the LTS?
<cjwatson> it's on the calendar
<slangasek> etting the alternate CDs downto size; and coordinating full testing of the (small set of) 8.04.2 ISOs
<robbiew> 01/22
<Keybuk> what needs to be done for it?
<liw> slangasek, and generally pulling and pushing people towards the release, and being available for questions 24/7?
<cjwatson> there's a langpack update due which is expected to deal with much of the alternate CD bloat
<cjwatson> we are relatively constrained in what we can do for .2 CD bloat problems, by comparison with jaunty, of course
<slangasek> liw: it's better for your sanity if you anticipate the questions instead and pre-empt them during your work hours ;)
<cjwatson> evand: I don't think it's required
<cjwatson> (useful, maybe, but if need be you can get somebody on the phone)
<evand> noted; thanks
<robbiew> I should point out that slangasek "may" be able to assist during his evening hours (if selected)...assuming he's not in a sequestered jury
<slangasek> which there's been no indication of so far
<mvo> "sequestered" ?
<cjwatson> locked away with no communication
 * Keybuk is trying to imagine what kind of cases they get in Portland
 * mvo nods
<robbiew> lol
<Keybuk> The Trial of the Portland Latte Thief
<cjwatson> Keybuk: crimes against fashion
<slangasek> Keybuk: probably just a murder, no need for sequestration :)
<robbiew> [ACTION] Keybuk and mvo to handle LTS release
<MootBot> ACTION received:  Keybuk and mvo to handle LTS release
<robbiew> [ACTION] doko and evand to handle jaunty alphas 1 & 2
<MootBot> ACTION received:  doko and evand to handle jaunty alphas 1 & 2
<cjwatson> correction: 3 and 4
<robbiew> heh
<robbiew> right
<robbiew> [ACTION] doko and evand to handle jaunty alphas 3&4, not 1&2
<MootBot> ACTION received:  doko and evand to handle jaunty alphas 3&4, not 1&2
<robbiew> so speaking of Jaunty
<cjwatson> Steve is here until at least Thu, so if you're worried about what you may need to do, pick his brains while you can
<robbiew> [TOPIC] Distro Sprint
<MootBot> New Topic:  Distro Sprint
<robbiew> has everyone booked their travel?
 * mvo takes the train
<robbiew> besides slangasek, of course
 * liw has flights
 * doko__ takes local transport
<cjwatson> I'm waiting for amity to send me a travel profile
<cjwatson> or rather a link for me to fill one in
<Keybuk> mine's booked
<evand> nope, but am about to through Amity.  (I receieved my visa this morning and will be moving to the UK shortly)
<Keybuk> cjwatson: they didn't ask me to do that ;)
<TheMuso> Yes
<doko__> did everybody confirm the cart driving? :p
<robbiew> james_w: ?
<liw> cjwatson, wasn't there a link to their .doc file in the canonical wiki?
<cjwatson> Keybuk: the canonical wiki said to, so I was obedient
<cjwatson> liw: would rather fill it in online; anyway I've got it now
<Keybuk> doko__: ?
<robbiew> Keybuk: doko sent an email out about go-karts
<cjwatson> evand: visa> yay
<doko__> Keybuk: see my email on the distro list
<Keybuk> ah, got it
<james_w> booked yesterday
<slangasek> I saw something in the mail about not drinking, I lost track after that
<evand> \o/
<robbiew> james_w: cool, thanks
<Keybuk> doko__: can we have paintball guns on the carts? :p
<robbiew> [TOPIC] Jaunty Feature List Summary
<MootBot> New Topic:  Jaunty Feature List Summary
<doko__> Keybuk: we all have except for you
<robbiew> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/UDS/December2008/Summary
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/UDS/December2008/Summary
<Keybuk> doko__: oh, well, that'll be fun too
<robbiew> so I tried to pull together a list of everything i "think" was discussed at UDS
<robbiew> involving our team
<Keybuk> robbiew: the dbus-restarts stuff is realistically not going to go anywhere for a while
<robbiew> ok
<Keybuk> it needs upstream buy-in and they've kinda expoloded
<robbiew> anyone else have something on this list, that they know cannot be done for Jaunty?
<cjwatson> most of the ones that I was expecting to have a hand in are pending spec write-ups
<cjwatson> so I *really* need people to get those done sooner rather than later, please?
<cjwatson> otherwise I'm going to have some very long video-watching sessions to do :)
<slangasek> which specs are you waiting on, specifically?
<liw> now that I'm back from vacation, I'll get the cruft-remover spec finished asap; I'd appreciate feedback on it, once I've given it a once-over
<mvo> liw: ping me when you think it needs review, I'm happy to give feedback
<liw> mvo, cool, thanks
<cjwatson> slangasek: archive-reorganization, server-installer-partitioning, server-installer-beautification/server-pre-installation, and grub2-by-default
<cjwatson> at least those are the major ones
<slangasek> ok
<Keybuk> boot-performance needs writing too :-/
<cjwatson> oem-config-server was a bit rough last I checked, but I largely know what's needed there anyway
<robbiew> the plan is that once we settle on the features we plan to deliver, to track them here:
<robbiew> https://wiki.canonical.com/UbuntuPlatform/Foundations/9.04
<cjwatson> there is apparently a call next Thursday in which I'm going to have to talk intelligently about archive-reorganization, so I need it particularly
<slangasek> cjwatson: fwiw, based on feedback from the kernel team the scope of grub2-by-default ought to be scaled back to "make it an option in the installer, and collect all the feedback we can on various hardware"
<cjwatson> slangasek: ok, that seems reasonable
<slangasek> archive-reorg has no drafter listed
<robbiew> evand: I still need to setup that call
<slangasek> I don't think I have notes from that one, was there a gobby doc?
<robbiew> evand: OEM tracking ID, right?
<cjwatson> there seem to be very rough notes in the wiki page
<evand> robbiew: ja
<robbiew> slangasek: the gobby doc notes were moved into the wiki
<cjwatson> they look rather inconclusive though
<robbiew> slangasek: by persia
<cjwatson> that said: given that I'm going to have to watch the video for that session particularly anyway, maybe I should just draft that while I'm there
<cjwatson> (archive-reorg)
<persia> The gobby document was largely inconclusive.  Someone will need to review the video and update with other notes.  Probably needs celso'd input as well for the Soyuz bits.
 * cjwatson sets himself as drafter
<robbiew> ok...moving on to the next topic
<robbiew> [TOPIC] Alpha 3 bugs
<MootBot> New Topic:  Alpha 3 bugs
<robbiew> http://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/jaunty/+bugs?field.milestone%3Alist=2211
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/jaunty/+bugs?field.milestone%3Alist=2211
<robbiew> heh...only two
<robbiew> ok...can probably move on :/
<robbiew> http://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/jaunty/+bugs
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/jaunty/+bugs
<robbiew> here's the targeted bugs list...just to keep it fresh in your minds :)
<robbiew> and I should bring up the effort by the QA team
<robbiew> http://wiki.canonical.com/UbuntuPlatform/QA/BugFixing/TeamBugLists
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://wiki.canonical.com/UbuntuPlatform/QA/BugFixing/TeamBugLists
<robbiew> has everyone....or anyone seen this?
<cjwatson> that list=2211 link shows 50 bugs for me
<cjwatson> oh, never mind, cut-and-paste error of some kind
<mvo> hm, I see 50 too
<robbiew> cjwatson: 50 for the jaunty targeted bugs
<robbiew> right?
<cjwatson> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.milestone%3Alist=2211 may actually be more representative at this point
<cjwatson> mvo: it turned out that it had got cut-and-pasted as %253A rather than %3A
<robbiew> whoops...sorry
<cjwatson> I have been filling in http://wiki.canonical.com/UbuntuPlatform/QA/BugFixing/TeamBugLists, and complaining about how nobody else has been :)
<robbiew> the links in the agenda should work
<robbiew> cjwatson: yeah...I'm hoping it's because of the break, but I'll be sure to bring it up in the next platform managers call
<cjwatson> oh, maybe not, is TeamBugLists not the same as the qa-jaunty-foundations tag?
<robbiew> same
<cjwatson> http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ogasawara/jaunty-buglist.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ogasawara/jaunty-buglist.html
<cjwatson> it's all mvo and me so far
<slangasek> should the correct URL perhaps be linked from https://wiki.canonical.com/UbuntuPlatform/QA/BugFixing/TeamBugLists, since I don't see that there's a link to a bug list anywhere on there?
<cjwatson> slangasek: it's linked, but described as "kernel target list"
<cjwatson> I'll update the wiki
<robbiew> ok, so we can move on...but just want folks to keep the bug fixing effort in mind
<cjwatson> I've been tagging some things pet-bug as well, per the distro-team thread on the subject
<robbiew> before moving to far on
<robbiew> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/hardy/+bugs?field.milestone:list=1425
<robbiew> are the 8.04.2 bugs...I "think"
<slangasek> yes
<robbiew> whew
<robbiew> i have been asked to provide a "8.04.2 manifest detail"
<robbiew> and from what cjwatson and slangasek have told me, https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/hardy-changes/
<cjwatson> is that code for "release notes", or a more comprehensive summary of all changes?
<robbiew> is pretty much it
<cjwatson> there are several levels of detail we could use here
<robbiew> well, the OEM folks want to know what's going into the release
<slangasek> fwiw, from https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/hardy/+bugs?field.milestone:list=1425 what's most relevant at this point are the bugs that are already marked 'fix committed', because these are the ones in progress in -proposed that we're trying to see get through to -updates in time (i.e., this week and next)
<robbiew> from a fixes/updates point of view
<cjwatson> hardy-changes is a good source, but it would require some distillation, given the existence of failed-verification updates
<robbiew> right
<slangasek> we could use some more people helping to verify that these bugs are fixed
<Keybuk> robbiew: I think the only suitable answer to that is: "Raindrops on roses and whiskers on kittens"
<slangasek> 59695 should be an easy one for folks to help with, if they have hardy on raw hardware
<robbiew> Keybuk: heh
<cjwatson> I could spend some time preparing a summary of changes
<robbiew> cjwatson: thanks....feel free to recruit others if need be
<robbiew> ;)
<cjwatson> it won't be final until at least the 16th
<robbiew> [ACTION] cjwatson to prepare summary of changes for 8.04.2
<MootBot> ACTION received:  cjwatson to prepare summary of changes for 8.04.2
<robbiew> right
<robbiew> [TOPIC] Sponsorship Queue
<MootBot> New Topic:  Sponsorship Queue
<robbiew> moving on...cause time is ticking
<robbiew> I'm sure all saw dholbach's note today
<robbiew> just wanted to bring it up for reminder in the meeting
<robbiew> [TOPIC] PDR Objectives
<MootBot> New Topic:  PDR Objectives
<robbiew> I still owe some folks guidelines on these (per request)
<robbiew> but for those who don't need any, just a reminder to put them into the tool
 * robbiew finally figured out what needed to be done to open up that section :/
<liw> robbiew, I don't mind getting some guidelines, if you have a generic set
<robbiew> heh..sure
 * robbiew just dug threw some old "former employer" notes...got some good stuff :)
<TheMuso> robbiew: Afaicr I was able to put mine in, so I am not sure if the issue was before I did or after now... SO I am now wondering whether mine went in.
<robbiew> TheMuso: you're good to go!
 * mvo is interessted in those notes as well
<robbiew> mvo: I'll send guidelines to all
<robbiew> makes it easier ;)
<robbiew> just "guidelines" not anything forced
<robbiew> [TOPIC] Ubuntu EC2
<MootBot> New Topic:  Ubuntu EC2
<robbiew> http://www.ubuntu.com/products/whatisubuntu/serveredition/features/ec2
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://www.ubuntu.com/products/whatisubuntu/serveredition/features/ec2
<robbiew> so we've all been asked to investigate how we can leverage the Amazon EC2 cloud internally
<robbiew> I think cjwatson and mvo had a good idea for testing updates
<Keybuk> the what?
<robbiew> lol
<cjwatson> the thing described in the link immediately above :P
 * cjwatson replaces Keybuk with a context-free parser
<Keybuk> cjwatson: it used many many buzzwords without actually explaining anything
<Keybuk> Ubuntu Server on Amazon gives you the power of Ubuntu combined with the flexibility of Amazon's cloud computing service. Ubuntu's modularity, virtualization capabilities, range of applications and optimised performance make it the perfect solution if you're deploying applications on Amazon's Elastic Computing (EC2) cloud.
<Keybuk> ...
 * robbiew forwards note from mark
<Keybuk> err, bingo?
<cjwatson> my internal model of EC2 is "compute farm"
<slangasek> little fluffy cloud computing
<robbiew> right...just another term for Grid..or Utility computing
<Keybuk> the problem may be that I genuinely don't know what Cloud Computing is :-/
<mvo> one idea that cjwatson brought up was to port the upgrader tester to it, I have no idea (yet) how much effort it is to port it
<liw> so this is about using amazon's servers and disk space to do ubuntu development? like, say, running piuparts on everything and backwards?
<Keybuk> is it like SETI at Home?
<cjwatson> slangasek: hmm. uninstallability testing is really slow for universe/multiverse. do you think it might make sense to run that somewhere other than cocoplum?
<mvo> liw: that is my understanding at least :)
<slangasek> Keybuk: no, it's like SETI that you rent an ephemeral slice from a datacenter for
<cjwatson> liw: piuparts would be a good thing to run on EC2, I think, yes
<Keybuk> slangasek: how's this different to running things in our own datacenter?
<Keybuk> is it just a different datacenter?
<liw> not that piuparts needs a really large amount of resources, hmm
<cjwatson> Amazon have more computers than we do and can bring vms up and down very easily
<slangasek> Keybuk: finer grained resource committments, less elmo grumpiness
<robbiew> Keybuk: scalable CPU, storage, and bandwidth...on demand
<james_w> grumpy and other mass merging type things that have been discussed could be a candidate
<mvo> if it would/could provide vm snapshots too that would be cool/useful
<cjwatson> and if you overflow the resource limits of one computer then you don't get wedged until IS can find a bigger one
<robbiew> http://wiki.canonical.com/CoP/EngineeringManagement/AmazonEC2
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://wiki.canonical.com/CoP/EngineeringManagement/AmazonEC2
<robbiew> we are internally tracking our uses here
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: QA Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 07 Jan 18:00: Edubuntu meeting | 08 Jan 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 08 Jan 13:00: Desktop Team | 08 Jan 14:00: Ubuntu Java
<Keybuk> would we run things like MoM on it?
<slangasek> cjwatson: uninstallability testing w/ britney, or?
<cjwatson> slangasek: aye
<cjwatson> Keybuk: I believe that's possible, although some consideration of where to put the persistent big blob of data would be worthwhile
<slangasek> cjwatson: could run it elsewhere; would still benefit from updating to a newer britney
<Keybuk> cjwatson: you don't get disk space?
<robbiew> anyway...feel free to reply to the forwarded mail that I just sent...and we can discuss it that way
<cjwatson> Rick Clark should be able to answer questions or point you to somebody who can
<cjwatson> Keybuk: I wasn't sure how persistent the disk space was so was hedging :)
<robbiew> I can also help...have played with it over the break
<Keybuk> sounds a bit like PokÃ©mon to me <g>
<slangasek> cjwatson: would rather spend my time on merging the new britney instead of sorting through the security implications of letting something in a cloud publish the results via scp
<robbiew> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:00.
<cjwatson> slangasek: OK
<robbiew> did everyone receive their Foundations Beer Mugs?
<TheMuso> Now back to making sure my procmail rules for mail aren't broken. :p
<TheMuso> robbiew: Yes, thanks heaps.
<robbiew> in one piece?
<james_w> yes, thanks robbiew
<evand> indeed, thanks!
<slangasek> yes, thanks. :)
<mvo> yes, thanks robbiew
<robbiew> Keybuks met with an unfortunate accident along route :P
<cjwatson> beer mug> yes :-)
<robbiew> Keybuk: another should arrive ;)
<Keybuk> \o/
<robbiew> I have a cool shirt with the logo...was going to bring to the distro sprint
<robbiew> I'll shoot out a note asking for sizes
<liw> thanks for the mug and the meeting
<robbiew> anyway...I think another meeting is starting
<robbiew> so thanks all :)
<mvo> thanks!
<evand> thanks
<Keybuk> thanks! :D
<randa> robbiew if you want i can help you with the sizes
<heno> QA meeting next ...
 * pedro_ waves
 * ogasawara waves
 * bdmurray waves
<heno> cr3, schwuk, sbeattie, ara: meeting ping
<schwuk> heno: here
<sbeattie> hey
<ara> heno: here!
<heno> ok, let's start!
<heno> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 11:07. The chair is heno.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<heno> agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Meetings
<heno> [TOPIC] Jaunty spec review
<MootBot> New Topic:  Jaunty spec review
<heno> again, let's run down the schedule at http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-jaunty/bavorr/
<heno> Some still need drafting while others are waiting on review (normally from me)
<heno> qa-upstream-kernel-bugs is approved
<heno> schwuk: can you review the checbox specs as a group for us?
<cr3> heno: meeting pong
<schwuk> heno: review their status here you mean?
<heno> yes please
<heno> schwuk: you were going to write a UI spec that ties together several others for one thing
<heno> (though I realise you have an urgent testing task ATM)
<schwuk> OK. All five from UDS are still drafting, but most should be complete this week.
<schwuk> In addition - as you said - a sixth UI/UE spec is being drafted based on conversations between yourself, cr3 and I
<heno> ok, please ping me when I should review
<schwuk> heno: will do
<heno> * qa-cert-testing-proposed - cr3?
<cr3> heno: one moment, trying to lookup the blueprint
<heno> still needs more design an implementation details
<cr3> heno: absolutely, I didn't notice how empty it looked. on my todo list
<heno> ok thanks
<heno> * qa-needs-packaging-bugs is approved
<heno> * qa-portal and package-status-pages really need new formulations and an updated focus for Jaunty
<ogasawara> I'll clean both of those up
<heno> we recycled the old specs but they need a fair bit of change
<heno> thanks ogasawara - let me know if you need more detailed input from me
<ogasawara> heno: for the package-status-pages - I did update with our goals for jaunty but I wasn't sure if I should remove what we designed for Hardy
<heno> perhaps move it to a hardy section at the bottom of the spec?
<ogasawara> heno: sounds good, I'll organize it better
<heno> * jaunty-regression-management needs drafting altogether
<sbeattie> heno: yeah, sorry, I'll get going on that.
<heno> thanks. I think the meat will be in qa-jaunty-regression-tracker
<heno> sbeattie: is that one ready for review?
<sbeattie> heno: probably not.
<sbeattie> I'll get those straightened out this week.
<heno> ok, thanks
<heno> it seems fewer specs than I thought are blocked on me :)
<heno> * qa-bug-patch-workflow
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: QA Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 07 Jan 18:00: Edubuntu meeting | 08 Jan 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 08 Jan 13:00: Desktop Team | 08 Jan 14:00: Ubuntu Java | 13 Jan 21:00: LoCo Council
<heno> needs use cases and some drafting
<bdmurray> yes, I'm working on it
<heno> thanks
<heno> that reminds me - you wanted to suggest a new QA spec template
<heno> Everyone, feel free to bend the template, leaving out sections as appropriate
<bdmurray> I'm not sure a whole template is necessary, perhaps just a QA spec guideline as not every bit of the existing spec template applies to all specs
<heno> release notes is often not releb
<heno> *relevant for us
<heno> for example
<heno> bdmurray: can you put up a new proposed template?
<heno> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Specs/Template say
<bdmurray> heno: sure
<heno> great, we'll review next week
<heno> * qa-gnome-desktop-testing - approved
<heno> * qa-jaunty-isotracker
<heno> needs drafting and the LP url is broken on the wiki
<heno> stgraber: do you have the correct URL?
<heno> ok, it's https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-qa-website/+spec/qa-jaunty-isotracker
<heno> he may be at lunch
<heno> * qa-hardware-test-result-publication
<heno> ... needs drafting by me :)
<heno> * qa-sru-process-streamline
<heno> pedro_, sbeattie and I are working through that this week
<heno> along with the hardy.2 SRU testing
<heno> * hardware-certification-kvm-access
<heno> again, needs drafting by me
<heno> * qa-testscase-wiki
<heno> ara: please see my comment in the spec
<heno> it needs some clarification
<ara> heno: yes, I will work on it this week
<ara> heno: some stuff is quite close to implementation, therefore I asked schwuk for a little help
<heno> * smoketesting needs some review by me
<ara> schwuk: have you received the invitation?
<heno> ara: close to implementation? such as plugins?
<ara> heno: yes
<heno> have you been secretly hacking on moin? ;)
<ara> heno: no, no, that is why I need schwuk ;-)
<heno> beats talking with relatives over the holidays I guess :)
<heno> ok, cool
<ara> heno: to ask him his opinion on what can be done
<heno> right. see my links to existing plugins on the moin site too
<schwuk> ara: received and accepted
<heno> I'll update the summary on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Specs/
<heno> so we can track these a bit better
<heno> next ...
<heno> [TOPIC] Hardy point release testing
<MootBot> New Topic:  Hardy point release testing
<heno> This includes smoke testing (davmor2), auto-install testing (cr3) and SRU testing (sbeattie)
<heno> davmor2: you said you would start smoke testing this week?
<heno> (oh, and ISO testing - QA team)
<cr3> heno: so I plan to have automated image testing this week and be prepared for the full manual testing close to release
<heno> cr3: how is your progress on getting images tested?
<cr3> heno: we should see some image test results appear today.
<heno> if filed bug 314726 to track the issues
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 314726 in certify-web "Image testing fails after introduction of 'actions'" [Critical,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/314726
<heno> could you add some details to that?
<cr3> sure, I didn't notice that bug
<heno> just filed it today
<heno> thanks
<cr3> heno: and it's not "actions" but "activities", "actions" are something else :)
<heno> sbeattie: you were focusing on kernel SRU testing yesterday?
<heno> cr3: hm buggy bug :)
<sbeattie> yes, I verified a kvm fix, and was setting up a xen environment, as a few of the kernel SRUs are xen related.
<heno> ok, great
<heno> we'll talk through the bugs in detail on various calls
<heno> scheduled for this week and next
<heno> we should make a list of bugs that we don't have HW to test
<sbeattie> okay
<heno> cr3: can you join sbeattie and me on a call on friday to look at such a list?
<sbeattie> is progress being made on visibility into what hardware the cert lab has available?
<heno> schwuk: you've worked on that a bit
<heno> there are some lists on the C.c wiki, but there is not enough device detail AFAIK
<cr3> heno: sure, I look forward to it
<sbeattie> also, specifically with the kernel, would it be useful to highlight or otherwise indicate the upstream stable update bugs, in part to focus attention on others?
<heno> sbeattie: I'll send you a link
<sbeattie> heno: great, thanks.
<schwuk> heno: basic make/model lists on the test coverage reports for Intrepid RC and Final.
<heno> sbeattie: could be - on the SRU list page?
<sbeattie> yeah
<sbeattie> I'm just trying to figure out what we should do with those.
<cr3> heno: what time is the call on Friday so that I can update my calendar?
<heno> cr3: 18.00UTC
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Edubuntu meeting Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 08 Jan 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 08 Jan 13:00: Desktop Team | 08 Jan 14:00: Ubuntu Java | 13 Jan 21:00: LoCo Council
<heno> sbeattie: please add your thoughts on that to the SRU streamline spec
<heno> Finally: hardy.2 candidate images are projected for the 19th
<sbeattie> examples include bug 301608, bug 301632, and bug 301634
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 301608 in linux "[Hardy] Update kernel to Linux 2.6.24.4" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/301608
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 301632 in linux "[Hardy] Update kernel to Linux 2.6.24.5" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/301632
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 301634 in linux "[Hardy] Update kernel to Linux 2.6.24.6/7" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/301634
<heno> it's only Ubuntu this time
<heno> so the testing burden is not too big
<heno> any other business for the meeting?
<ara> I am just thinking about preparing testing days focused on testing specific new features before it is too late (RC...). I don't know how it is the best way to collect the features that need some testing. I was thinking on sending an email to ubuntu-dev list asking devs to include their specs at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/UbuntuTestingDay/Features so we can organize them better
<ara> what do you guys think? it is the ubuntu-dev list the place to announce this?
<heno> I think so
<pedro_> yes indeed
<heno> there is also http://testcases.qa.ubuntu.com/Coverage/NewFeatures
<heno> should the wiki.u.c page be used instead
<heno> that might be more appropriate
<ara> heno: ok, I will send the email tomorrow and will try to lobby a bit also on the irc channels
<heno> ok, great
<heno> let's wrap it
<heno> thanks everyone!
<ara> thanks, bye!
<heno> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 12:04.
<heno> oh, I forgot: there is a QA/LP voice meeting next Monday
<bdmurray> what time?
<heno> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/LaunchpadBugsUbuntuQAMeeting
<heno> says 18.00utc
<heno> anyone can sign up
<LaserJock> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 12:08. The chair is LaserJock.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<LaserJock> ok, time for Edubuntu meeting!
<LaserJock> who all is here?
<sbalneav> Present@
 * sbalneav waves hand frantically so teacher LaserJock will see him
<Lns> hey sbalneav, give me some of your tots
<LaserJock> nubae1: here?
<sbalneav> Lns: No problem.  I also have some homemade lasagna to trade.  Whatcha got?
<pips1> hi
<sbalneav> Hey pips1
<Lns> sbalneav: mmmm.. lasagna.. *drool*
<LaserJock> hi RichEd
<pips1> hey sbalneav
<RichEd> hi LaserJock, sbalneav, pips1
<LaserJock> ok, the agenda is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/Community/MeetingAgenda
<LaserJock> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/Community/MeetingAgenda
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/Community/MeetingAgenda
<sbalneav> Hey RichEd
<LaserJock> ok, so there's a number of topics for today
 * stgraber waves
<LaserJock> sorry, I was just putting some final changes into the strategy doc
<LaserJock> [TOPIC] Review of the Edubuntu Strategy
<MootBot> New Topic:  Review of the Edubuntu Strategy
<LaserJock> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/StrategyDocument
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/StrategyDocument
<LaserJock> OK, so I've filled in the strategy doc some more
<sbalneav> OK, I've joined the main fanboy team :)
<LaserJock> mainly in the community and development sections
<sbalneav> Reading
<LaserJock> I've tried to make it useful for a new person wanting to contribute
<LaserJock> lots of links and descriptions, etc.
<Lns> LaserJock: I'd like to clarify that Edubuntu is designed for grades K-12 (+Uni?), correct? Not a certain age range, but all encompassing education-based OS?
<stgraber> looks really good
<LaserJock> it's been somewhat evolving as our understand of Edubuntu is evolving
<LaserJock> *understanding
<LaserJock> I *think* we're going to emphasis that Edubuntu is focused on Education
<LaserJock> sort of wherever that leads
<LaserJock> but yeah, we could use more age clarification
<LaserJock> which is something I wanted to ask RichEd about
<Lns> mmk
<RichEd> LaserJock: yep ... education in all ages
<RichEd> Not only K 1-12, but Uni, as well as Adult education
<LaserJock> we've been looking at dividing up into 4 categories
<LaserJock> preschool, primary, secondary, tertiary+
<nubae_> Has the edubuntu= universe, ubunut-edu= main been mentioned yet?
<LaserJock> nubae_: no
<RichEd> ^ by adult education I mean literacy and life skills etc.
<nubae_> k, I'll let u lead into it
<nubae_> :-)
<LaserJock> RichEd: can we get some sort of official age range for each of the categories?
<LaserJock> I'd like to be able to do "Primary (ages 6-11)" or something
<LaserJock> just to give some guidance
<RichEd> well can we get input from a few countries ?
<nubae_> and categorise the apps that way on the site too
<RichEd> what is the US age per grade ... LaserJock ?
<Lns> Yeah - and specific package installations.. nubae_ yeah
<LaserJock> RichEd: perhaps an email to edubuntu-users ubuntu-education?
<nubae_> what is the difference between those 2 lists?
<RichEd> well we have a range of countries here :)
<RichEd> nubae_: what is the austrian age per grade ?
<jsenlai> hello im jsen from indonesia
<nubae_> actually, what me and Laserjock were discussion yesterday would make those 2 lists actually mean something
<Lns> RichEd: in California anyway, Kindergarten starts at age 5 generally, and 1-12 just +1yr each
<RichEd> (I'll dig up South Africa info as we speak)
<LaserJock> in the US it's I think going to be preschool (<=5), primary (6-11), secondary (14-18), tertiary (18+)
<nubae_> here, kindergarten is till 4 or 5
<LaserJock> however I don't know what ages 12-13 would be
<LaserJock> we have middle school or junior high
<Lns> LaserJock: yeah
<LaserJock> I don't know if they count as secondary or not
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Edubuntu meeting Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 08 Jan 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 08 Jan 13:00: Desktop Team | 08 Jan 14:00: Ubuntu Java | 13 Jan 21:00: LoCo Council | 15 Jan 00:30: Forum Council
<nubae_> yeah, 11 might even be secondary
<LaserJock> generally in junior high is where you split into subject clases
<LaserJock> which would make sense to put it in secondary, IMO
<Lns> in US you don't normally hear "primary/secondary", it's "elementary" and "middle school/junior high" and "high school"
<nubae_> yeah, we dont really have that here, just primary and secondary
<RichEd> age 7 = grade 1 for south africa
<LaserJock> nubae_: when does secondary start?
<nubae_> 11 or 12
<LaserJock> k
<LaserJock> well, I know it's not going to be the same around the world
<RichEd> nubae_: how are the years classified / labelled in Austria ?
<LaserJock> but I think having some sort of general guide would help
<RichEd> LaserJock: we'll end up with a +/- 2 year tolerance I think
<Lns> age range might be most generic and flexible
<LaserJock> RichEd: yeah, I think that might be fine
<LaserJock> shall we ask edubuntu-users then? get a bit more broad input?
<RichEd> we've already established that GRADE 1-12 and K 1-12 are used in many countries
<RichEd> and I'm guessing that for the countries that do not use GRADE or AGE, most teachers would know where the local classification maps against these
<LaserJock> yeah
<nubae_> RichEd, well we have primar and hochschule
<jsenlai> anyone from indonesia here. pm me. i'm interested in implementing edubuntu at schools
<RichEd> LaserJock: let's get a draft set of guidelines and send to edubuntu-users for comment / input ?
<LaserJock> right
<LaserJock> who wants to do that?
<RichEd> better to make a mark on the ground and call for correction than to ask for a bunfight
<LaserJock> RichEd: right, totally agreed
<LaserJock> any takers?
<RichEd> LaserJock: I can send the mail
<LaserJock> [ACTION] RichEd to send email seeking comment on age ranges for preschoo, primary, secondary, tertiary designations
<MootBot> ACTION received:  RichEd to send email seeking comment on age ranges for preschoo, primary, secondary, tertiary designations
<LaserJock> ok, so there's 2 things I wanted to discuss about the strategy doc
<LaserJock> 1) teams
<LaserJock> 2) Main and Universe, ubuntu-edu and edubuntu
<LaserJock> 1) I've put descriptions for the Launchpad teams we have
<RichEd> [Action] I'll draft the South Africa and out the UK mapping tonight and send to the others here for input ... LaserJock for US, nubae_ for Austria
<RichEd> [ACTION] I'll draft the South Africa and out the UK mapping tonight and send to the others here for input ... LaserJock for US, nubae_ for Austria
<nubae_> I can do Spain and Germany too
<RichEd> bah ... what am I doing wrong with the action command LaserJock ?
<LaserJock> [ACTION] RichEd will draft the South Africa and out the UK mapping tonight and send to the others here for input ... LaserJock for US, nubae_ for Austria, Spain, Germany
<MootBot> ACTION received:  RichEd will draft the South Africa and out the UK mapping tonight and send to the others here for input ... LaserJock for US, nubae_ for Austria, Spain, Germany
<LaserJock> RichEd: I'm chair i guess
 * RichEd loves democracy ;)
<nubae_> lol
<LaserJock> heh
<LaserJock> ok, so there are a couple questions about Launchpad teams
<nubae_> its democracy that got us into this predicament in the first place ;-)
<LaserJock> 1) do we need an edubuntu-dev team
<nubae_> I'd imagine without that not much is gonna be done package side
<LaserJock> I have an Edubuntu Developers section in the doc but we've never had a team for it
<RichEd> LaserJock: -dev may scare off some resources ... sounds too much like coding
<nubae_> yup I said that too last time
<RichEd> what about edubuntu-contributers
<LaserJock> well, it should scare some off I think
<LaserJock> long term, I think we're going to need a team to represent Edubuntu people who have real powers
<RichEd> that can cover dev as well as web contributors, application reviews etc.
<nubae_> well if the dev team is just packagers and maintainers, and bug fixers fine
<nubae_> well, shouldnt that be council?
<LaserJock> i.e. they need to be official devs (able to upload) and will have access to seeds, PPAs, bzr
<RichEd> nubae_: but too many small groups may split up and dilute momentum
<LaserJock> the edubuntu-members team is currently the catch-all contributor team
<RichEd> I'd make edubuntu-dev a sub group of edubuntu-contributors, but keep the meetings / mails in one high level group
<nubae_> RichEd, I didnt mean name them like that, was trying to define edubuntu-dev
<LaserJock> and we have the other subject teams such as -doc, -bugs, -artwork
<RichEd> edubuntu-members is a meaningless name to me ... never made much sense ...
<RichEd> many users try to join members
<nubae_> yeah... on top of it there are 2 lists in launchpad
<LaserJock> well, it's a meaningfull name for Ubuntu people
<nubae_> the ~edubuntu one
<nubae_> and the edubuntu members one...
<LaserJock> I had an idea for that
<LaserJock> what we can do is this, make ~edubuntu an umbrella team
<RichEd> Personally I'd split at a high level into - edubuntu-users and edubuntu-contributors - as rallying points, and allow subdivision where it makes sense
<nubae_> yeah LaserJock agreed
<LaserJock> to which no people are subscribed directly
<LaserJock> only through teams
<LaserJock> and then all the various Edubuntu teams are members of ~edubuntu
<LaserJock> we already have an ~edubuntu-users team
<LaserJock> which is sort of a fanboy team
<nubae_> yeah like a home page within launchpad
<nubae_> for those wanting to get involved
<RichEd> my reasoning is that artwork / bugs / dev should be interested in keeping an eye out across the whole contribution effort
<nubae_> right, they can like this
<LaserJock> RichEd: what would edubuntu-contributors actually do?
<LaserJock> what I need is a team to which I can give permissions to do things with
<RichEd> edubuntu-users = people who consume
<LaserJock> that has a high-enough barrier
<RichEd> edubuntu-contributors = people who help shape and build
<nubae_> but really do we need another subdivision?
<nubae_> cant we just define what contributions they do by the teams they joinb
<nubae_> so they first join edubuntu, then they see the teams available
<nubae_> and join those
<nubae_> most would just join users, and the rest specifically what they wanna do
<LaserJock> well, there is a line where you can be a contributor, but not yet a "developer"
<RichEd> nubae_: we want people to recommend & review applications, help with edu news stories etc.
<nubae_> right, so we have -documentation -website, -artwork
<RichEd> this does not fit edubuntu-users and also edubuntu-dev sounds like coding only
<RichEd> ^ w.r.t. mail list
<nubae_> oh, ure talking about mailing lists
<nubae_> well contributors sounds fine yeah
<nubae_> I thought we were talking launchpad teams
<LaserJock> well, I don't think we need any more mailing lists
<LaserJock> I'm just talking LP teams
<nubae_> no, but changing -devel mailing list to -contributors isnt a bad idea
<LaserJock> yes it is :-)
<nubae_> ?
<nubae_> why
<LaserJock> *every* other similar list in ubuntu is -devel
<LaserJock> we already have history
<LaserJock> it's generally a lot of pain to cater to people who can be educated that -devel is OK
<nubae_> but the list is almost dead now
<Lns> i agree that -devel does sound coding-centric and might not appeal to those who want to contribute in other ways
<LaserJock> nubae_: that's kind of irrelevant though
<nubae_> well, part of the reason its dead is because the develop word is too strong...
<LaserJock> no
<nubae_> I bet there would be more people on it if it was called something else
<LaserJock> it's because people don't get off their butt and help
<LaserJock> honestly, if people are turned off by -devel I don't want them
<LaserJock> we can explain  that -devel is not about coding and everything
<LaserJock> it really shouldn't be a big deal
<nubae_> u've been a dev too long
<LaserJock> yes, and I've got years of experience doing this stuff
<nubae_> u're not seeing this objectively :-)
<LaserJock> it'd be a real pain to change the list
<RichEd> LaserJock: launchpad should map onto mailing lists no ?
<LaserJock> no
<LaserJock> heavens no
 * RichEd looks up
<LaserJock> if I had my way right now we'd have 1 list for all Education
<nubae_> well, that would be fine for me
<LaserJock> 2 max
<nubae_> that would be actually really good
<nubae_> sugar did that...
 * Lns claps
<RichEd> yep agreed ... what I meant was: mail list -users & -contributors
<LaserJock> however, mailing lists are pretty secondary right now
<RichEd> LP -users & -contributors
<RichEd> those as the two top levels
<LaserJock> well, I don't think that's right
<RichEd> and LP for the sub-groups (no mailing list)
<LaserJock> as we have -artwork, -doc, -bugs, etc.
<nubae_> I think LP should have more groups
<nubae_> ah... ok, yeah
<LaserJock> the edubuntu-devel list is about *all* development in Edubuntu
<LaserJock> it's pretty easy to say that and people will get it
<nubae_> what if for now, we moved all dev talk to the edubuntu-users lits
<nubae_> list
<RichEd> so LP -contributors would explain to people *where* they can contribute to what and which group to join
<LaserJock> hmm
<RichEd> nubae_: tech stuff can scare away some teachers
<nubae_> ah maybe not, I'm talking crap
<LaserJock> but I think perhaps that's better done on edubuntu.org
 * RichEd installs crap filter 2.1
<LaserJock> rather than a contributors list
<LaserJock> s/list/LP team/
<nubae_> RichEd, we should really have 1 main umbrella LP
<nubae_> the one currently known as ~edubuntu
<RichEd> LaserJock: okay my last comment ... do we not want to co-ordinate all contributors around the time of UDS and release ?
<RichEd> to pull all the pieces together
<LaserJock> RichEd: I think that would be done via the edubuntu-devel mailing list
<nubae_> yeah and or the umbrella site
<RichEd> but back to -devel does not sound like a place for art people and web people
<LaserJock> I don't see an edubuntu-contributors LP team as serving a functional purpose exactly
<RichEd> a teacher and a student may be keen to help with art and soft stuff like reviews
<LaserJock> that's a culture issue, not a technical one, IMO
<LaserJock> seriously, if you are a part of the community and you're scared of edubuntu-devel??
<nubae_> the website would be best suited for that
<nubae_> we can ease them into the -devel term from there
<nubae_> from there and from launchpad umbrella
<LaserJock> we have pages on the website on how to get involved and about the community, we can clarify there fairly easily, IMO
<Ahmuck> LaserJock: i don't hang out in dev channels
<LaserJock> sure you do
<Ahmuck> i find dev channels unfriendly
<LaserJock>  #edubuntu is a dev channel
<nubae_> Ahmuck, edubuntu is a dev channel and so is ltsp
<nubae_> ;-)
<Ahmuck> well, sorta, because i have a tech background, but i've had students listen in on dev channels, and it does scare them
<Lns> dont scare him away from those chans! =p
<nubae_> lol
<LaserJock> right, dev channels can be scary
<nubae_> launchpad can be scarier
<LaserJock> but if you're going to get in there and contribute you sorta gotta get over that
<nubae_> and -devel lists terrifying
<Ahmuck> agreed
<LaserJock> we can strive to have a friendly atmostphere and describer how open we are
<LaserJock> but I don't think changing names is going to really gain us much
<Ahmuck> k
<LaserJock> now, I can see some reasoning for creating an edubuntu-contributors LP team
<nubae_> ok, u're right, but easing them into the process from the website and from launchpad is a good idea
<LaserJock> but I'm sort of thinking that edubuntu-members covers that
<nubae_> yeah it does
<LaserJock> my main thing right now is I think we need a -dev team
<LaserJock> we can create an edubuntu-contributors team later if it seems like there is a need
<Ahmuck> what is dev however.  is it just code issues
<LaserJock> I just hate creating LP teams (we already have a ton)
<Lns> the website most definitely is crucial for explaining where to go, right on the index page, for all types of contributors..that's the first place people go when looking for info on edubuntu
<Ahmuck> doesn't dev also include user testing
<Ahmuck> icons
<Ahmuck> etc.
<Lns> especially school type people
<nubae_> we need to take back the existing teams first
<LaserJock> well, I wouldn't say "code"
<LaserJock> but packaging
<nubae_> there are kinda levels to it
<LaserJock> bottom line, I need a team to control permissions
<LaserJock> traditionally we do that via a -dev team
<nubae_> ok, well we're all ears
<LaserJock> in the future the -dev team would hold the permissions to upload, adjust seeds, etc.
<LaserJock> the core practical work of getting Edubuntu done
<nubae_> would they have to be MOTU?
<LaserJock> right now, at least
<LaserJock> in the future when the archive is reorganized it will be come the team that has control over all the edu apps
<LaserJock> as MOTU and Core Dev will be different
<nubae_> ok
<LaserJock> right now we can use it for PPA and Universe seeds
<LaserJock> make sense?
<nubae_> yep
<LaserJock> ok, the second part of the strategy doc I wanted to talk about was the app bundles
<LaserJock> RichEd: nubae_ and I have been discussing a strategy for Main and Universe app bundles
<nubae_> wait... shouldnt we action getting the launchpad teams?
 * RichEd listens
<LaserJock> [ACTION] LaserJock to create edubuntu-dev Launchpad team and arrange for ~edubuntu as an umbrella team
<MootBot> ACTION received:  LaserJock to create edubuntu-dev Launchpad team and arrange for ~edubuntu as an umbrella team
<LaserJock> RichEd: I've been struggling a bit with the "Edubuntu == community/project" thing
<LaserJock> as it's practically kind of hard to separate out the community from the product
<LaserJock> however, as we were discussion app bundles and expanding our offerings out to Universe
<LaserJock> it kind of made sense to define "Edubuntu" as sort of the everything of education in Ubuntu
<nubae_> or everything in main and universe
<nubae_> talking appswise
<LaserJock> and then focus the Ubuntu Education CD (using ubuntu-edu namespace) on the Canonical-supported (main)
<nubae_> so ubuntu-edu would be just main
<LaserJock> so in terms of naming convention, ubuntu-edu-primary would be the Canonical-supported Primary app bundle
<nubae_> strict guidelines for choice, and well supported
<nubae_> official support even :-.)
<LaserJock> whereas edubuntu-primary would be the community-supported Primary app bundle
<RichEd> well the official line from Canonical is that we cannot name any product edubuntu ... ubuntu education is the official choice
<nubae_> righ
<nubae_> totally fits in
<LaserJock> RichEd: what is "product" though?
<LaserJock> is that strictly the CD?
<RichEd> the .iso and marketing and documentation will not use the name edubuntu
<nubae_> ubuntu education would refer to what is currently the edubuntu apps
<Ahmuck> edubuntu-community
<nubae_> yeah thats fine... a .iso would only be made from the ubuntu-edu apps
<nubae_> and documentation, can be split into official and non-official
<LaserJock> hmm, this is such a nasty situation :-)
<RichEd> ^ to explain the above official naming to the current audience ... we have many OEMs from far flung countries who are just now becoming interested in Ubuntu ... they have no exposure to Edubuntu
<LaserJock> right
<nubae_> right, thats why this is interesting
<nubae_> edubuntu expands as a community, supporting universe apps
<LaserJock> but how much do the OEMs care about?
<nubae_> ubuntu-edu remains the strict official support of edu apps in main
<RichEd> Canonical want to get the OEMs to embrace Ubuntu as a default install, and then understand Ubuntu Education as a value-add option for Education marlets
<nubae_> that all fits in with this plan
<LaserJock> RichEd: right, but does that just contain what is supported by Canonical?
<LaserJock> or is Canonical essentially claiming all of education in Ubuntu?
<RichEd> what do mean by that ?
<nubae_> is the set of edu apps in main, the official supported and named ubuntu-edu?
<LaserJock> what I mean is, that while I understand what Canonical is doing I'm a bit sketchy on what that allows the community to do
<RichEd> LaserJock: Canonical would not hamper or restrict community addition or customisation of Ubuntu Education add-on options
<nubae_> ie, canonical will never support universe
<RichEd> they would just not promote Edubuntu as a brand to the OEM and blue chips
<LaserJock> ok, that makes total sense
<nubae_> which is fine, since its not a brand, nor a distro
<LaserJock> but on a practical sense, what does that mean for existing Edubuntu users?
<Lns> it means they are now ubuntu-edu users? :)
<RichEd> note also that the OEMs and blue chips want rock solid supported stuff ... but teachers and students are free to add to their desktops once they have taken delivery
<LaserJock> do we just completely torch "Edubuntu" or can Edubuntu produce "Ubuntu Education" *as well as* non-Canonical stuff
<RichEd> the latter
<LaserJock> so here's sort of how I'm viewing it, and please correct me if I'm getting this wrong
<nubae_> so we stick to what we said before... ubuntu education = edu apps in main, edubuntu = edu apps in universe
<Ahmuck> you don't get points from teachers adding stuff to their desktops if it doesn't work properly
<RichEd> think of Ubuntu Education as the official base ... and further stuff as community value add
<RichEd> Ahmuck: lots of apps will work properly ... but may not find resources to officially support
<LaserJock> we can have Edubuntu produce the Ubuntu Education CD (and we'd need to I guess use Ubuntu Education branding for all that) but outside of that we can use "Edubuntu"?
<RichEd> we are not saying edubuntu contributions are dodgy ... just currently outside the official set - but allowed to be moved in given support and testing
 * Lns 's eyes glaze over
<LaserJock> Lns: I know, I know
<nubae_> :-)
<LaserJock> Edubuntu used to me the official set
<LaserJock> now we're making it the opposite
<RichEd> LaserJock: but Edubuntu was a seperate install and distro ... which held back adoption by requiring seperate h/w certification & install skills
<LaserJock> sure
<LaserJock> but it's hard to have the same word mean different things
<RichEd> now edubuntu is a value add to the rock-solid base ... one install, just a custom app set
<RichEd> Edubuntu are the people, project and effort ...
<LaserJock> right, but those people produce products
<nubae_> I think its fine if its defined by the support and the apps they are defined by
<LaserJock> some of which are supported (and called something other than the project) and some which are not
<Lns> IMVHO, I think ubunutu-edu and ubuntu-edu-extras make good sense
<nubae_> supported by canonical though
<RichEd> LaserJock: think of it this way ... the application menu has an [Education] category ... not an Edubuntu category
<LaserJock> nubae_: I don't think it's strictly just Canonical (in fact in this case it's very little Canonical)
<RichEd> It's Ubuntu with Education applications on top
<LaserJock> I realize that
<nubae_> official support I mean
<nubae_> actually its education and games
<nubae_> and a couple other categories too
<nubae_> ;-)
<LaserJock> but I'm staring at mailing lists, irc channels, a couple hundred wiki pages, and documentation that all say "Edubuntu"
<nubae_> well, we dont have to change that do we
<LaserJock> I also have a lot of packages with "edubuntu" in them
<nubae_> just the add on cd is named ubuntu-edu
<LaserJock> so here's my thinking about as best I can come up with right now
<LaserJock> 1) we use the Ubuntu Education CD and anything that goes on that is going to have ubuntu-edu branding/naming
<RichEd> Well try this thinking ... when someone is considering an OS, Ubuntu is the best choice ;) and it also offers great education benefits ... but once a user has opened their eyes to Ubuntu, and installed, they can explore the world of Edubuntu.
<LaserJock> 2) the project as a whole is "Edubuntu" so we retain mailing list, LP teams, etc.
<RichEd> So Ubuntu is the entry point, Edubuntu is the "more great stuff"
<nubae_> LaserJock, +1
<LaserJock> 3) we write up a *clear* statement and send it to edubuntu-users, ububuntu-education, edubuntu.org, slashdot, digg ;-)
 * RichEd is happy with that
<LaserJock> RichEd: right, I totally understand the marketing,etc. part of it. it's the practical part of me trying to impliment it that was giving me fits :-)
<LaserJock> we'll need to deal with About Edubuntu and some seed management, but I think that's about it
<RichEd> well there is very little restraint from Canonical on what you want to do :) - it's just the "product" naming that is firm
<Lns> The root of the confusion lies in the naming convention. Ubuntu, Xubuntu, Kubuntu are installable OS's.. Edubuntu is not (anymore). Result = confusion.
<LaserJock> yes
<RichEd> Lns: exactly
<LaserJock> I actually like Ubuntu Education better, but we have lots of inertia
<nubae_> welll the problem is that ubuntu education can be only the officially supported bits
<LaserJock> alright, well, should we try to look at a couple other topics real quick or is time to be done?
<Lns> i dont think a namechange would hinder our inertia one bit..i think it might actually get more to gravitate toward it
<nubae_> and edubuntu wants to be more than that
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 08 Jan 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 08 Jan 13:00: Desktop Team | 08 Jan 14:00: Ubuntu Java | 13 Jan 21:00: LoCo Council | 15 Jan 00:30: Forum Council | 19 Jan 22:00: IRC Council
<RichEd> Also from large deployments, OEMs etc. Ubuntu has a huge community and support and adoption and credibility ... whereas Edubuntu is a small fraction of that
<LaserJock> nubae_: except the Edubuntu community does it all ;-)
<nubae_> yeah lets just forget that pickle for now
<LaserJock> I wonder if people expect to see Ubuntu Education teams, developers, etc.
<LaserJock> but hopefully the only people who'd get confused would be OEMs anyway ;-)
<Lns> haha
<RichEd> So one of the reasons for the "move to make Edubuntu a add-on to Ubuntu" was to hand all support *below* the education application layer to the huge machine and allow Edubuntu to focus on the user level school stuff
<RichEd> = greater confidence in H/W and installation and support etc.
<nubae_> RichEd, thats quite weak in practice
<RichEd> ??
<Lns> which sounds very logical
<nubae_> as it means the edu portion of ubuntu was left with no developers
<Lns> nubae_: but the ubu devs are still working on the same bits that benefit edu users
<nubae_> sorry... no 'paid' developers
<RichEd> nubae_: off the record ... that p!$$ed me off as well
<LaserJock> [ACTION] LaserJock to draft "Edubuntu and Ubuntu Education" clarification statement and run it by RichEd et. al
<MootBot> ACTION received:  LaserJock to draft "Edubuntu and Ubuntu Education" clarification statement and run it by RichEd et. al
<nubae_> Im talking specifically edu apps
<LaserJock> nubae_: we never had anybody really paid for edu apps
<nubae_> basically what ubuntu education is right now
<RichEd> nubae_: well oliver did not really work with edu apps ... he was o/s and LTSP
<nubae_> true
<nubae_> but a hell of a lot more wsa done than now
<LaserJock> well, but that's not really all Canonical's fault
<nubae_> I'm just saying, it would be nice to have a paid dev working on this massive edu side of ubuntu
<RichEd> my comment to that is that many people were keen to help build the education product - and once it became mature, the need was less critical
<Lns> what *we* need is focus, and edubuntu, ubuntu education, whatever, needs to focus on those bits only. We need to build our community around the educational apps/games/etc and the other communities can focus on ltsp, h/w, etc
<LaserJock> if there's a week community and Canonical's doing all the work, and then Canonical steps aside, you can't blame Canonical for the week community that's left
<LaserJock> bah, s/week/weak/
<Lns> we can build a HUGE community once we have a clear focus and mission
<RichEd> also, the orginal people grew up, got jobs, made babies ... and life called on their available contribution time
<LaserJock> Lns: agreed
<nubae_> Lns, +1 well said
<Lns> education and open source are a match made in Heaven, i dont think there'd be any issue with getting more people involved
<LaserJock> so first step is getting this darn strategy doc done
<LaserJock> getting everybody on the same page
<RichEd> Lns: agreed ... but now it is phase 2 ... a new society ... phase 1 was build the base
<LaserJock> same goals, focus, etc.
<Lns> yes
<LaserJock> ok, really quick I think we need to briefly cover another topic
<LaserJock> [TOPIC] Review of Jaunty specs and tasks (see Roadmap)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Review of Jaunty specs and tasks (see Roadmap)
<LaserJock> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/Devel/RoadMap
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/Devel/RoadMap
 * RichEd has to go now ... but will keep the window open and scroll back later
<Lns> thx RichEd
<LaserJock> what I think we people to do now is to start moving past "what are we" and start getting some things done for Jaunty
<LaserJock> RichEd: thanks a ton
<LaserJock> we had a person stop by yesterday interested in helping out
<nubae_> LaserJock, indeed, I've tried to get the website up to speed, and think its almost there
<RichEd> thanks to you all and a +1 to LaserJock for doing a fine job of resucitation and leading
<LaserJock> what we need is a real list of things we need/want to accomplish for Jaunty
<LaserJock> we don't need to have them all assigned right away
<LaserJock> but we *need* to define the goals for this release
<nubae_> ok well we need to choose which apps to MIR
<LaserJock> so what I want you all to do is think of a few, smallish, actionable, feasible, things we can do for Jaunty
<LaserJock> nubae_: right, so that's one thing
<LaserJock> any other things people can think of off the top of their head?
<nubae_> we should try and get the wiki into a usable state before Jaunty
<nubae_> like was done with LTSP
<nubae_> hint hint nudge nudge
<Lns> not sure if this would fit into a "roadmap" , but maybe herding together the primary devs for the actual edu apps we include, to collaborate more easily would be a good idea?
<Lns> nubae_: I can do that
<LaserJock> nubae_: how do you mean?
<nubae_> well, the wiki is a great place for howtos
<Lns> I need more info though, as ive been doing primarily ltsp stuff recently and need more info on how to present it
<nubae_> and there are many there already
<nubae_> they just need to be fixed up
<LaserJock> Lns: do you mean getting together the upstream devs?
<Lns> LaserJock: yes.. like an informal "here we are, you should join our lists so we can get things done" type thing
<LaserJock> Lns: ok, good idea
<nubae_> not a bad idea, it would spur them on to get stuff into main maybe
<LaserJock> perhaps we can do like an OpenWeek kind of thing, but perhaps just an OpenDay
<nubae_> or are we not talking about uni devs
<Lns> community building gooood
<nubae_> right, have to run, but will read up later....
<Lns> nubae_: not specifically universe devs, no.. individual edu app maintainers upstream as well
<Lns> to let them know we are here and are using their apps, so they should become involved with us as well for collaboration purposes
<Lns> LaserJock: what's openweek?
<LaserJock> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
<Lns> mmm, saucy! thats a good idea, especially with an ical schedule, or similar
<Lns> keep people checking it for updates
<LaserJock> ok, I've added some stuff to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/Devel/RoadMap
<LaserJock> what I'd like from you guys is to continue thinking of small things
<LaserJock> they really need to be bitesize so we can get them done relatively quickly
<LaserJock> Jaunty freezes will come waay too quickly
<LaserJock> then, if you want to take/lead a task put your name by it
<LaserJock> and we'll start doing more task tracking
<LaserJock> sometimes it seems a bit silly for small tasks
<Lns> nah
<LaserJock> but we need to show both ourselves and and other people what we're up to
<Lns> everything starts small, by doing that we'll build momentum and identity
<LaserJock> right, the 2 main goals I have for Jaunty are to build some momentum in existing contributors and to have a place for new people to "land"
<Lns> LaserJock: i dont see what you put up for tasks
<LaserJock> I put up the application review section and the stuff in Documentation and Community
<Lns> oic
<LaserJock> really just quick notes
<LaserJock> please feel freel to split up, expand, prettify :-)
<Lns> hehe.. i'll try and do some wiki work, but it will be minimal right now as i dont want to move it in a direction that isnt supported by everyone else
<LaserJock> the one under Website is sort of what I think would be helpful for formatting
<LaserJock> we could also go with a table formate
<Lns> that is a great idea
<Lns> and link to the official app websites as well
<Lns> if they have one
<LaserJock> Lns: well, generally I would suggest doing a little bit and then ask on edubuntu-devel or on #edubuntu for review
<Lns> LaserJock: ok
<LaserJock> but remember, the wiki has history, we can always revert your changes ;-)
<LaserJock> so there's little risk
<Lns> exactly, which is good
<LaserJock> [ACTION] Everybody is going to help fill out https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/Devel/RoadMap
<MootBot> ACTION received:  Everybody is going to help fill out https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/Devel/RoadMap
<LaserJock> ok, I need to probably go
<LaserJock> any last questions?
<Lns> LaserJock: yeah real quick
<LaserJock> I'll take off the agenda items that we covered today and leave the rest for next time (which I think we should start holding regular meetings)
<Lns> on the wiki should i change "Edubuntu is a Linux distribution" at the top?
<LaserJock> Lns: which page?
<Lns> https://wiki.edubuntu.org/Edubuntu'
<Lns> err, without the '
<Lns> main wiki page
<LaserJock> yeah
<Lns> ok
<LaserJock> we need to use more "educational layer" and "project focused on Ubuntu in educational settings" language
<Lns> cool, i can do that
<LaserJock> the "it's a distro" or "OS" stuff is just going to be a confusion
<LaserJock> ok?
<Lns> yup
<LaserJock> nubae_: done?
<Lns> he's ooto i think
<LaserJock> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 13:56.
<LaserJock> ok, we're done
 * Lns claps
<Lns> thanks LaserJock
<Lns> good stuff
<nubae_> yup
<nubae_> all sounds good
<LaserJock> if we do this more often then we don't have 2hr meetings every time ;-)
<Lns> haha, good idea
<nubae_> heh, ok so set the next one up now
<LaserJock> 2 weeks from today would probably be good
<nubae_> cool
<Lns> same bat time?
<LaserJock> I think so
 * Lns sets sunbird event
<LaserJock> unless we move days we have 2 other meetings before us, and I can't get up before those :-)
<Lns> np, but 18:00 utc is still open on the 21st right?
<LaserJock> should be yeah
<Lns> ok
<Lns> alright time to drum up more windows support business for my tech so i can spend more time on irc with you guys! =)
<LaserJock> heh
<Lns> thx again, i see us moving forward!
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-01-08
<adityag> anyone there ?
<randa> adityag: ?
<adityag> randa: in here for a membership
<dholbach> @schedule berlin
<ubottu> Schedule for Europe/Berlin: 08 Jan 13:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 08 Jan 14:00: Desktop Team | 08 Jan 15:00: Ubuntu Java | 13 Jan 22:00: LoCo Council | 15 Jan 01:30: Forum Council | 19 Jan 23:00: IRC Council
<dholbach> adityag: it seems like there is no membership board meeting scheduled right now
<dholbach> adityag: which board did you apply with?
<adityag> dholbach: Membership/RegionalBoards/AsiaOceania
<adityag>  but i still have to add my name there
<dholbach> 06-January-2009, 09:00 UTC was the last meeting
<dholbach> not sure when the next one is
<MaWaLe> adityag : you have to add your apply on the WiKi page for the next meeting
<adityag> MaWaLe: i am just editing it, just below yours
<MaWaLe> ad affiliate to this wiki page so on every change you'll be notified
<MaWaLe> s/ad/and
<adityag> MaWaLe: so did you attend it ?
<MaWaLe> yes adityag
<adityag> MaWaLe:
<adityag> ok good...
<MaWaLe> and and i'm delayed to the next meeting
<adityag> MaWaLe: when is the next meeting ?
<MaWaLe> still not mentioned
<MaWaLe> but i think there will be one the next week
<adityag> MaWaLe: ok, is this your profile ? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Wajih
<MaWaLe> adityag : you have to update your personal wiki page and to prepare a brief introduction to introduce yoursel during the meeting
<MaWaLe> yes : it's mine
<adityag> MaWaLe:  i have done it
<MaWaLe> but it's not the best example to have :)
<MaWaLe> good luck adityag
<adityag> thanks.........same 2 u
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Ubuntu Mobile Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 08 Jan 13:00: Desktop Team | 08 Jan 14:00: Ubuntu Java | 13 Jan 21:00: LoCo Council | 15 Jan 00:30: Forum Council | 19 Jan 22:00: IRC Council
<lool> Hey
<davidm> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 06:00. The chair is davidm.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
 * ogra waves
 * NCommander waves 
<davidm> hello, the Mobile Team Meeting is started. :)
 * StevenK shores
<ogra> heh
<NCommander> I read that as snores
<NCommander> anyway ...
<davidm> welcome to the first meeting of 2009, I hope everyone had a good end of year.
<lool> Wow it's really late for StevenK
<ogra> persia, ?
<StevenK> Meh, 11pm
<persia> ogra, ?
<ogra> ah
<StevenK> It was the same time at the end of last year, too
<lool> To everybody I didn't have the occasion to wish a happy new year: happy new year
<davidm> Yea, and it's 0600 where I'm sitting so no fair grumping, I'd much rather be up at 23:00 then 06:00
 * Hobbsee hands davidm a keg full of coffee.
<davidm> Anyway on to the agenda at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2009/20090108
 * StevenK isn't grumbling, just tired
<davidm> Thank you Hobbsee, I'm needing that at the moment :)
<Hobbsee> :)
<lool> Actually we had actions from 2008
<davidm> lool, I was just about to ask that.
<ogra> bah, thats so last year
<davidm> I need to get mootbot a better home so logs can be reached easier
<lool> not on the wiki; need to dig log
<lool> [action] lool to grab the UMPC image and test.
<lool> I did that
<lool> specs by
<lool> EPASTE
<lool> [action] lool, StevenK, persia, ogra to update their specs by Jan 8th
<StevenK> I need to talk about the UMPC image, too
<davidm> Ah found them
<lool> Sorry, back for a sec to UMPC image: I filed a bunch of bugs, there were a bunch of issues we need to address
<ogra> meh, i havent finished the touchscreen one yet ... (will do so before the weekend)
<lool> log is http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2008/12/18/%23ubuntu-meeting.html
<ogra> (teh BOF discussion was dumped in though, just needs proper formatting)
<lool> Concerning specs, I didn't work on them; I'm afraid I misplanned working on them over the holidays and was sick on Mon and Tues and didn't have time to do them this week; I expect I'll do them by next week or earlier along with other tasks
<lool> persia: I think you reviewed a bunch of specs; do you mind if I ask you for help in finding which ones I still need to look at?
<lool> Oh right, there was [action] persia to grab unclaimed specs and update those.
<lool> Might be why
<persia> lool, Not at all.  I'm nearly done with the overview review, and would be happy to send you a list of things to do, although probably in 15-18 hours.
 * ogra would be grateful for something like that as well ... the only one i can clearly say it's mine is the touchscreen thing
 * persia accepts action to task all open specs
<davidm> HA found mootbot log updated agenda
<NCommander> As an aside, all the specs that were discussed during UDS have now been drafted
<persia> At least initially.  I know I haven't completed at least 10 of the ones I wrote.
<ogra> NCommander, all ?
<lool> I added actions at the top of the current meeting
<NCommander> s/all/the mobile ones/g
<lool> davidm: Ah seems we were two :Ã )
<ogra> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JauntyTouchscreenHandling is definately not done
<ogra> (i would know that :) )
 * NCommander inserts foot in mouth and turns left
<davidm> [action] persia to send reminders to all on spec issues.
<MootBot> ACTION received:  persia to send reminders to all on spec issues.
<lool> Wow we wrote exactly the same text
<davidm> [ACTION] ogra to finish the touchscreen spec  ... (will do so before the weekend)
<MootBot> ACTION received:  ogra to finish the touchscreen spec  ... (will do so before the weekend)
<ogra> thanks
<lool> persia: Cool thanks; 15-18 hours is fine
<davidm> OK
<lool> persia: I'll block on that and sit idle until I get it
<davidm> let me set a belated topic
<davidm> [topic] Action Items from Dec 18th, 2008
<MootBot> New Topic:  Action Items from Dec 18th, 2008
<persia> lool, Erm.  Don't do that.  I was planning to sleep some of those 15-18 hours.
<davidm> [topic] lool to move UNR text to wiki page.
<MootBot> New Topic:  lool to move UNR text to wiki page.
 * ogra guesses lool was joking 
<lool> I'm searching for the URL, but it's done
<davidm> lool, great
<lool> ogra: Ah you can see the plans in the plans
<ogra> heh
<lool> It was https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UNR/jaunty-integration and was merged in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Specs/JauntyUNR
<ogra> eeek
<lool> (I actually only had to poke bfiller who had already done the work of listing work items on a wiki page)
<ogra> DVD ??? !
<davidm> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UNR/jaunty-integration
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UNR/jaunty-integration
<ogra> areally evil
<davidm> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Specs/JauntyUNR
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Specs/JauntyUNR
<persia> ogra, DVDs are good, because they contain *lots* of langpacks.
<lool> ogra: i'd skip to Modification Details for the list of things we'll actually work on right now
<davidm> OK lool are you happy with the pages?
<ogra> persia, DVDs are the most horrid to test
<lool> davidm: It's a good start; we'll update it / discuss it during implementation
<persia> I suppose.
<lool> ogra: I think they meant .iso
<ogra> simply because tehy are so huge
<davidm> OK
<ogra> lool, i dont care about the image format, but about the size
<lool> ogra: We can build both of a DVD and an ISO
<lool> and a CDROM sized ISO I mean
<ogra> ah, good
<StevenK> Can we?
<StevenK> Who was going to break this news to me?
<StevenK> :-P
<persia> Anyway, there are handy ways to test DVDs: the testing team has some automation that can be leveraged.
<davidm> lool just did
<StevenK> That so doesn't count
<davidm> StevenK, ^^
<StevenK> You chickens
<ogra> persia, doesnt make them smaller
<lool> It's an option; these requirements were set by OEM folks; we can go back to them and tell them we're building a CD ISO for now, and would like to discuss the option of a DVD with them
<persia> ogra, Actually, they use rsync, which makes the download smaller, but we're digressing.
<ogra> yeah
<lool> As in: is it a typo, do you really need it, why etc.
<persia> And "who will be testing it?"
<ogra> right
<davidm> yes we are digressing
<davidm> any actions from this right now?
<ogra> the initial plan was to just modify the umpc image to be unr
<StevenK> I'm working on it
<lool> ogra: And that's how we will start; at some point we need to reconcile OEM's expectations with our implementation
<StevenK> It's how I have started
<lool> davidm: Don't think so, apart of implementation of the UNR spec
<ogra> i'd like us to stick with that since all other stuff will put a lot extra work up we dont have the manpower for
<lool> (Which doesn't need an action)
<davidm> OK then lets move on
<StevenK> The seeds, the meta packages and the tasks have all changed
<davidm> [topic] StevenK to sort out seed changes
<MootBot> New Topic:  StevenK to sort out seed changes
<persia> It has a spec.  Specs will become actions, once I assign them :)
<lool> StevenK, ogra: Let's bring up DVD with bfiller and others and see whether it's a firm option
<lool> davidm: You could action that
<StevenK> Next is livecd-rootfs and cdimage scripts
<lool> Since there's a lot of contention on the DVD issue
<davidm> [action] lool to  bring up DVD with bfiller and others and see whether it's a firm need
<MootBot> ACTION received:  lool to  bring up DVD with bfiller and others and see whether it's a firm need
<ogra> lool, i dont see us having the manpower to do any DVD work, but well
<lool> Ah I knew it would fall on my head
<lool> StevenK, ogra: i'll make sure you're in this discussion though
<ogra> thanks
<davidm> ogra, we can ask for help from OEM if DVD is critical for them for some reason
<lool> ogra: let's not discuss this until we're sure we do one or why we need one
<davidm> StevenK, are you happy with seeds at this point?
<StevenK> davidm: At this point, yes.
<davidm> OK moving on then
<ogra> the packages need proper autostart files etc ...
<StevenK> davidm: As soon as we have a installable image, I'll become unhappy, since I'll have to change them a lot
<ogra> but thast for "until FF"
<davidm> [topic] persia -> I'll move the mobile-applications to a wiki page, and send email expecting people to update it for the next meeting
 * NCommander has some info on d-i's status on ARM
<MootBot> New Topic:  persia -> I'll move the mobile-applications to a wiki page, and send email expecting people to update it for the next meeting
 * persia was an abject failure
<davidm> carry over that action then persia ?
<persia> I put it on the agenda for today though, hoping we could assign people to each app.
<davidm> Ah
<davidm> OK
<lool> I'm worried about this whole thing, even more so with one person per app
<persia> Why more so with one person per app?
<ogra> what would you suggest instead ?
<lool> Well we'll do a frankenstein thing with random apps
<persia> We each test the alternatives over the next week, and we have the answer at the next meeting?
<ogra> we do have one already
<StevenK> So we call Ubuntu Frankenstein and Ubuntu Frankensmaller
<StevenK> I'll make the seed changes now
<ogra> hehe
<lool> haha
<StevenK> I think we need one guy to do a 5000 foot view
<lool> If you ask people here what mail app they prefer you'll get 4/5 different responses, same for photo viewing or text edition; I expect it will be somewhat the same in the MID case, even if everybody knows we're not biased
<lool> Since we're basically not investing as much time on the MID image this cycle, why do we want to reconsider all apps this cycle?
<Hobbsee> I believe the solution is "just use emacs for everything, and save space"
<lool> (sorry for asking fundamental questions on this spec  :-/)
<davidm> lool, that is a valid poing
<davidm> lool, that is a valid point that is
<persia> lool, I'm not happy with my MID.  I'd like to have a reasonable set of apps, and be happy.
 * ogra agrees with lool
<lool> persia: I'm not happy with it either, and I can see that this is generally needed, but also a lot of work; I also think splitting it amongst various people will result in a different but almost equally bad result
<Hobbsee> lool: well, won't it be somewhat limited by the fact that various of the options won't fit on the screen anyway?
<lool> Hobbsee: Sure
<persia> lool, It's just testing the candidates to see how they work in jaunty, and whether they fit on the screen.
<persia> I'm not suggesting people go and recode stuff or anything.
<lool> It's some "research" of possible apps
<lool> AIUI
<persia> For most of them we have a list of 3-4 candidates from UDS.  It's just testing those.
<lool> Ok; is there a list of things to check / test for them as well?
<lool> e.g. finger-friendly
<davidm> lool, I agree and I don't want to invest too much time on this, we don't have the cycles, but I'm willing to invest some amount of time.
<persia> lool, There's a short "requirements" list, yes.
<lool> I think a couple of hours of everybody's time to try out apps is fine, as long as we keep it documented in a safe place
<lool> My personal fear is that a better solution would be to package new stuff which isn't in the archive, or improve some existing stuff
<ogra> ++
<lool> Say, what if there's a cool maemo.org project of a new foo app and it would be the winner would it be in our archive
<ogra> we should not lose the overview
<ogra> but surely not invest to much time
<StevenK> Well, let's document stuff at least
<persia> I don't want new stuff.  Just testing.  Some of the stuff we have doesn't work at all well, and we can just toss it out.
<davidm> it's really late in cycle to import anything, but documenting things it OK with me.
<lool> Ok, let's start with this research of in-archive apps as a first step then
<davidm> persia, can you take the action to drive this, ie: list of things to check for each category?
<lool> I agree it's useful, albeit probably not enough to chose the best apps for MID
<persia> Sure.  It will be in the spec tomorrow.
<persia> What I want now is people to volunteer for each class.  I'll name a class, and someone say "Me".  First always wins.
<persia> Browser.
<lool> We're talking of 14 categories; I expect some 20-30 apps to test and we're 7 not counting davidm
<lool> Some probably longer than others
<persia> RIght.  So everyone gets two.
<davidm> [action] persia to pull together a list of things to check for MID Application Selection.
<MootBot> ACTION received:  persia to pull together a list of things to check for MID Application Selection.
<lool> I'll take calendar
<StevenK> Heh
<persia> I'll take the ones nobody else wants.
<lool> and text editor
<davidm> [action] lool to look at calendar
<NCommander> I'll look at file managers
<MootBot> ACTION received:  lool to look at calendar
<NCommander> and ... instant messager
<StevenK> I don't remember the categories
<davidm> [action] lool to look at text editor
<MootBot> ACTION received:  lool to look at text editor
<lool> StevenK: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2009/20090108
<davidm> [action] NCommander to look at file managers
<MootBot> ACTION received:  NCommander to look at file managers
<NCommander> Disclaimer: I don't actually have a device that can run MID, so all my testing will be in a KVM image
 * ogra takes on screen kbd
<davidm> [action] NCommander to look at instant messager
<MootBot> ACTION received:  NCommander to look at instant messager
<StevenK> Feed Reader
<StevenK> Book Reader
<davidm> [action] ogra to look at on screen kbd
<MootBot> ACTION received:  ogra to look at on screen kbd
<ogra> and alarm clock
<NCommander> [action] StevenK to look at Feed Reader
<davidm> [action] StevenK to look at Book Reader
<MootBot> ACTION received:  StevenK to look at Book Reader
<ogra> the uglyness bothers me since a while
<persia> StevenK, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2009/20090108 has the categories
<StevenK> NCommander: Needs to be davidm saying it
<davidm> [action] ogra to look at alarm clock
<MootBot> ACTION received:  ogra to look at alarm clock
<lool> Argh we're not 7 but 6, I counted amitk on the agenda
<NCommander> StevenK, I thought action was a general command, oh well.
<davidm> [action] StevenK to look at Feed Reader
<MootBot> ACTION received:  StevenK to look at Feed Reader
<NCommander> What''s left?
<ogra> i was planning to look into fennec ...
<davidm> amitk is not here
<lool> I'm removing amitk from the agenda; he's only invited here and not present these weeks anyway
<ogra> so i might take web browser as well
<davidm> [action] ogra to look at web browsers
<MootBot> ACTION received:  ogra to look at web browsers
<lool> I'll take address book as well then
<davidm> ogra, I'm interested in just how good fennec is, please let me know what you think as you play with it. :-)
<lool> There might be some overlap with email or instant messenger obviously
<davidm> [action] lool to look at address book
<MootBot> ACTION received:  lool to look at address book
<persia> Leftovers are Document viewer, Photo Viewer, Media Player, and Onscreen Keyboard?
 * lool long week ahead
<ogra> i tried eth recent release on maemo and it still sucks a bit but improved
<persia> Could someone else take one of those?
<davidm> persia, ogra took Onscreen Keyboard
<lool> persia: onscreen was taken by ogra
<ogra> right
<StevenK> ogra has Onscreen Keyboard?
<StevenK> s/?//
<lool> NCommander: You need to say it too
<ogra> :)
<davidm> so persia are you willing to take on: Document viewer, Photo Viewer, Media Player?
<NCommander> ogra, has the onscreen keyboard? ohnos!
<NCommander> :-P
<lool> ;)
<persia> Great.  I get Document Viewer, Photo Viewer, and Media Player then.  Lots of books and movies.  Hurrah!
<ogra> persia, and i have the onscreen keyboard
<davidm> [action] persia to review Document viewer
<MootBot> ACTION received:  persia to review Document viewer
<davidm> [action] persia to review Photo Viewer
<MootBot> ACTION received:  persia to review Photo Viewer
<davidm> [action] persia to review Media Player
<MootBot> ACTION received:  persia to review Media Player
<StevenK> At least persia won't ask me to look at elisa
<davidm> OK are we done with this topic for now?
<persia> Yes.  That was it.  Thanks.
 * davidm can't wait to see the mootbot log for this one ;-)
<ogra> heh
<StevenK> I think my poor Q1 is still cooling down from trying to run it
<davidm> OK then on to current business
<davidm> [topic] status
<MootBot> New Topic:  status
<davidm> [topic] StevenK's status
<MootBot> New Topic:  StevenK's status
<ogra> asleep ?
<davidm> apparently we have terminally overheated StevenK's Q1
<lool> Let's go back to him later; we'll soon get his AR too
<Hobbsee> ogra: looks like it.
<davidm> [topic] lool's status
<MootBot> New Topic:  lool's status
<lool> sitting
 * davidm grins
<lool> General catchup done; finishing a SRU and then will be done for intrepid stuff
<lool> Currently high on the TODO are specs and some canonical work items
<lool> That's about it; I have a good overview of tasks to accomplish; let me know if you need something urgently from me and I didn't ack it
<davidm> OK thanks lool
<davidm> [topic] ogra's status
<MootBot> New Topic:  ogra's status
<ogra> dumped BOF notes into the touchscreen spec, no further mobile related work, did hardware enablement for some specific arm HW which doesnt belong into this meeting ...
<ogra> and sitting as well :)
 * davidm 10k people out of work and we have ogra for humor
<davidm> ;-)
<ogra> heh
<lool> StevenK has some connectivity issues with freenode, will be back shortly we hope
<ogra> tahts it for this week from my side :)
<StevenK> I'm here
<davidm> Ah OK
<davidm> [topic] StevenK's status
<MootBot> New Topic:  StevenK's status
<davidm> bringing back StevenK status
<StevenK> I did armel stuff after UDS before breaking up, I've mostly been working on moving UMPC to UNR
<davidm> StevenK, thanks, anything else to add?
<StevenK> Nope
<davidm> [topic] NCommander's status
<MootBot> New Topic:  NCommander's status
<NCommander> ENOCOFFEE, EBROKENCOFFEEMAKER, ENOSLEEP, EXRANDRISEVIL, WLOWCOKE, WLOWCAFFIENE, WCOLD, ISITTING
<NCommander> I drafted a couple of the UDS specs for the mobile, which I'm running through Steve
<NCommander> Before Christmas, I also managed to get MID semi-working on ARM (I think the issue with gnome-settings-manager has been resolved, so it probably will work should I take another stab at it)
<NCommander> That's all I got.
<NCommander> oh wait
<lool> haha
<NCommander> I would also like to join the ubuntu-mobile team :-)
<davidm> Ah, we need to vote on that I think, correct persia?
<StevenK> Denied. Next!
 * StevenK grins evilly
 * persia digs up the records for the policy
<persia> Right.  Applicants need to have contributed some stuff, and then need to get votes from current team members.
<lool> I think you need a couple more months as a MOTU before joining the mobile team -- nahh just kidding, I'm +1
<persia> So, votes from current team members (LP: ~ubuntu-mobile)
<StevenK> Ooooh.
<ogra> +
<StevenK> That could draw blood, lool
<ogra> 1
<davidm> davidm, +1
<StevenK> +1
<persia> +1 from me: the architecture-neutral stuff was great.
<lool> ogra is writing vertically now
<ogra> y
<ogra> e
<ogra> a
<ogra> h
<lool> xrandr to the rescue
<ogra> :
<ogra> )
<StevenK> Oh, sigh
<NCommander> lool, that's an improvement, last night my LCDs were upside down to make my world right side up
 * StevenK retroactively slaughters ogra 
 * ogra bleeds on the floor
<lool> So I think we have enough +1s
<StevenK> At least he didn't do /\nm\ne\n
<lool> And still two status reports to fit in 4 minutes
<davidm> OK works for me, NCommander welcome to the team
<davidm> [topic] persia's status
<MootBot> New Topic:  persia's status
<NCommander> INEWLPBADGE,IWOO
 * StevenK shifts NCommander out of Zope context
<persia> Oh, I've just been reading specs, determining what needs to be done, and who's likely to care.  I fixed a couple specs that people whined about specifically.
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Desktop Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 08 Jan 14:00: Ubuntu Java | 13 Jan 21:00: LoCo Council | 15 Jan 00:30: Forum Council | 19 Jan 22:00: IRC Council
<davidm> persia, anything else?
<persia> Nope.
<davidm> [topic] davidm's status
<MootBot> New Topic:  davidm's status
<davidm> I've been reading specs and in meeting with other teams to update specs
<davidm> getting ready to present Ubuntu Mobile at LCA
<davidm> and that's it for now'
<davidm> OK
<davidm> we are out of time
<davidm> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 07:00.
<davidm> thanks everyone
<lool> davidm: thanks for chairing
<ogra> thanks
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Ubuntu Java Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 13 Jan 21:00: LoCo Council | 15 Jan 00:30: Forum Council | 19 Jan 22:00: IRC Council
<persia> Anyone here for the Java Meeting?
<slytherin> persia: yup. :-)
<ludovicc> yes
<persia> OK.  No special agenda this week (see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JavaTeam/Meeting)
<persia> Roadmap then.
<persia> robilad isn't here, so we'll skip that part (really not expecting much progress until the Maven stuff is complete anyway).
<persia> slytherin, How is MoveToUniverse going?
<ludovicc> I'm working on the Maven stuff ;-)
<slytherin> persia: not much to do there except jboss for which I have logged the bug already.
<persia> slytherin, So we're basically caught up with Debian at this point, and to get further requires real research on the copyright state of things?
<slytherin> persia: we are almost caught up with Debian. Whatever packages are remaining are not high profile packages.
<persia> OK.  Are you expecting to move ahead of Debian, or work with Debian on MoveToMain, and then keep up-to-date?
<slytherin> As of now I just plan to get in sync with Debian.
<persia> OK.  Anything blocking?  Need any help?
<slytherin> nothing blocking. I will bug some archive admin for jboss bug. But that's it.
<persia> OK.  Next, is Maven.
<persia> ludovicc, As Koon is away today, could you give us a quick precis of status on that effort?
<ludovicc> I'm working with Debian (Torsten Werner) to build Maven projects in Debian
<slytherin> ludovicc: I didn't know you were involved. :-)
<ludovicc> Torstern has released a 0.1 version of maven-debian-helper, which contains cdbs rules for Maven
<persia> Are you using the bootstrap guide from https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JavaTeam/Specs/MavenSupportSpec or another resource?
<ludovicc> this version is still a bit rough, as it requires patching Maven pom files
<ludovicc> currently it's using Torsten's specs, defined here http://wiki.debian.org/Java/MavenBuilder
<ludovicc> as I have implemented something which was more around the lines of MavenSupportSpec, I'm trying to merge both ideas together
<persia> Cool!
<persia> Any big issues, or just a lot of little things on a per-package basis?
<ludovicc> currently software built with Maven is deployed to /usr/share/maven-repo
<ludovicc> the issue is with packages which were not built with Maven in mind, we need to include them somehow in the Debian Maven repository
<ludovicc> my idea currently is to create a dependency map, following the model of JPackage, and it maps the Maven structure (groupId/artifactId) to the location of the jar in Debian
<ludovicc> so I will add this dependency map to maven-debian-helper, and this should solve the issue with building packages mixing Maven and non-Maven built packages
<persia> On a per-package basis, or generally?
<persia> Would that need updating for each new Java package introduced?
<ludovicc> per-package, but only for new packages which are built with Maven
<ludovicc> there will be some duplication, but it's better than upgrading all existing packages to include support for Maven
<persia> OK, so Maven-built packages that depend on legacy packages need glue, but everything else can be left alone, and the glue is added only based on the build-dependencies of the new package?
<ludovicc> exactly
<persia> OK.  That's workable.  You're discussing this with Torsten?
<ludovicc> yes I am
<ludovicc> Torsten has already released quite a few new packages, you can see them here
<ludovicc> deb http://people.debian.org/~twerner/ ./
<persia> Excellent!  These are in experimental already?
<ludovicc> yes, or maybe even in unstable, I don't remember exactly
<ludovicc> how can we get those new packages in Ubuntu Jaunty, once they are in Debian?
<slytherin> some of them are perhaps in unstable, some in experimental. I am filing sync bugs for them as and when they can be built in pbuilder chroot for jaunty.
<persia> ludovicc, Anything else outstanding?  Any blockers?  Do you need help?
<persia> ludovicc, ?
<ludovicc> no blockers, but I will need other people to test and build new Maven packages when  maven-debian-helper is more advanced
<ludovicc> also, it would help if somebody could package the remaining Maven plugins, there are > 20 of them, plus what can be found on other places (mojo.codehaus.org)
<slytherin> ludovicc: sure once the complete tool chain is in Ubuntu.
<persia> OK.  When you get to that point, please let us know: there's a few Java packagers that might be able to help.
<ludovicc> sure
<ludovicc> I will need help to move the tool chain to Ubuntu, as I don't know how that process works
<persia> Mostly just requires sync requests.
<ludovicc> where do you file them?
<persia> slytherin, Could you walk ludovicc through the process after the meeting?
<slytherin> persia: sure.
<persia> Thanks.
<persia> OK.  Next up: dropping Sun Java 5.
<persia> slytherin, did you finish drafting the spec for that?  I don't see a link yet.
<slytherin> persia: I never started. :-(
<persia> Do you still have time to do it, or do you need someone else to do that?
<slytherin> I don't mind if someone else takes over.
<persia> OK.  I'll write up a spec for that, and push it through the approvals process.
<persia> I'll also accept assignment for the Roadmap item.
<persia> Do you know of any specific packages that will break without it?
<slytherin> No. All the packages which use sun specific APIs seem to build/run fine with openjdk.
<persia> Excellent.  I like it when I inherit easy work :)
<persia> OK.  Next up: open discussion.  Anyone have anything else they want to add?
<slytherin> nothing from my side.
<persia> ludovicc, ?
<ludovicc> is there a plan to upgrade the Java IDEs to their latest versions?
<ludovicc> Eclipse 3.4 and Netbeans 6.5
<ludovicc> (big task!)
<persia> I think everyone is hiding from eclipse, from what I've heard.
<persia> I'll check on netbeans now.
<slytherin> AFAIK, few people from debian-java are working on Eclipse. But debian-java moves very slow these days with regards to sponsorship.
<persia> Indeed: the netbeans crew is working on netbeans 6.5 packaging, and so we should be good.
<ludovicc> nice to know!
<ludovicc> no more questions at this point
<persia> OK.  Until next week then.  Thanks all.
<slytherin> bye
<ludovicc> ah, where is this Netbeans team?
<persia> Distributed.  I think most of them are in Prague and Petersberg, but I'm not 100% sure.
<ludovicc> ok, so the Sun developers are actually taking care of packaging the IDE, not the Debian community
<persia> Well, the NetBeans Community, but yes.
<ludovicc> ok, thanks. See you
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 13 Jan 21:00: LoCo Council | 15 Jan 00:30: Forum Council | 19 Jan 22:00: IRC Council
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-01-11
<jdstrand> kees, robbiew: meeting?
 * robbiew is here ;)
<kees> \o
<kees> is mdeslaur back?
 * jjohansen waves
<jdstrand> kees: I don't think so
<jdstrand> he said he expected to have to miss today
<kees> ah, ok.  let's go ahead with the meeting anyway and we can catch him up tomorrow?
<jdstrand> sounds good
<kees> alrighty
<kees> I'm playing a bit with "dieharder" for testing RNGs, and will probably create a q-r-t script for it.
<kees> it's a long-running test, but it's pretty exhaustive.
<robbiew> RNGs?
<kees> Random Number Generator
<jdstrand> kees: perhaps add it to test-rng.py?
<kees> I'd done limited RNG testing with the "rngtest" tool but that only covers FIPS-140-2
<kees> jdstrand: yeah
<jdstrand> test-rng.py allows you to run specific tests if you want, or all, of which dieharder could be one
<jdstrand> kees: that is cool-- I hadn't heard of dieharder :)
<jdstrand> kees: is rngtest part of test-rng.py now too? or did you not bother cause of dieharder?
<kees> I may not bother given how robust dieharder is.
<kees> on the other hand, it's super-fast.
<jdstrand> might be fun-- you've already learned the tool
 * kees nods
<kees> going to try to hit some more low-hanging fruit on the updates tree, and if I have any time left, I'm going to start working on the fscaps implementation for dpkg.
<kees> that's it from me.
<jdstrand> I am triager and I am continuing the transmission update this week.
<jdstrand> it looks like I won't get to the getent/passwd apparmor stuff before alpha-2
<kees> s'okay, the infrastructure to support it is done, which is great
<jdstrand> I plan to work on apparmor dev work for lucid, which includes alias support and the libvirt 0.7.5 merge from Debian
<jdstrand> beyond that, I will probably pick up an update
<jdstrand> kees: yeah-- we are looking very good wrt to tunables these days
<jdstrand> there is a debconf question, apparmor now uses tunables/home.d and likewise-open drops a file in tunables/home.d
<jdstrand> already that is a good improvement over previous releases
<jdstrand> I have the method I am going to use for the passwd stuff, just need to think about whether to break it out into a separate tool, etc
<jdstrand> that will be discussed when I get back to it
<jdstrand> that is it from me for this week, but I have a separate item to discuss regarding our blueprints
<jdstrand> we can come back to it later, or discuss now)
<jdstrand> s/)//
<kees> let's do it now.  :)
<jdstrand> ok, so an essential item (catchall-essential iirc) has "switch apparmor Firefox profile on for Lucid dev cycle"
<jdstrand> (fine)
<jdstrand> (well, maybe not, but anyhoo...)
<jjohansen> whats not fine?
 * kees is confused too
<jdstrand> that is a problem atm because a) I know that java is busted and audit doesn't show it as being broke because of profiling) and b) we can't do it until some lower priority blueprints are implemented
<kees> kick it down to "high", I'd say.
<jjohansen> which blueprints?
<jdstrand> specifically: it requires parts of security-lucid-apparmor-usability and security-lucid-apparmor-abstractions, both 'high'
<jdstrand> jjohansen: it's all my stuff
<jdstrand> jjohansen: though I look forward to the ptrace fix ;)
<jjohansen> just curious
<jjohansen> right, that won't hit alpha2
<jdstrand> (that isn't blueprinted-- I'm just teasing)
<jdstrand> well, maybe you bp'd it-- I didn't
<jjohansen> erm, I think its a kernel work item
<jdstrand> kees: so, yeah, marking it to high would be an option, but it is essential based on the person who suggested it
<jdstrand> so I feel kinda stuck
<jdstrand> (Mark said turn it on during UDS)
<jdstrand> that came out wrong
<jdstrand> during UDS, Mark suggested we turn the profile to enforcing
<jjohansen> well it would be nice to have it on during alpha2
<jdstrand> so I wasn't sure to shuffle stuff around to essential, or to bump it down to high. the java bug is a problem though
<jdstrand> jjohansen: I haven't had time to look at the java bug at all, but I confirmed java breaks with the profile on, but there are no denials
<jjohansen> right, we need to look at that, is it serious enough that its not worth doing for alpha2
<jdstrand> jjohansen: have you seen that bug?
<ScottK> Anything that takes a Java upload is clearly too late for Alpha 2.
<jdstrand> ScottK: no, not a java upload
<jjohansen> just profile
<jdstrand> the java plugin breaks and hangs firefox when the firefox profile is in enforcing mode
 * robbiew is confused...why must we bump it down to high? is it b/c it won't make alpha2?
<kees> jdstrand: hrm
<kees> robbiew: I think the issue is that non-essential bps are blocking an essential bp
<jdstrand> robbiew: an essential item depends on two items that are only high to be feasible
<robbiew> ah
<robbiew> ack
<robbiew> makes sense to lower to high then
<robbiew> regardless of who requested it ;)
<robbiew> the only other option is get the blocking bps raised
<jjohansen> agreeded I think its to late to figure out the Java bug and get a fix in
<jjohansen> it probably has a kernel component
<jdstrand> I mean, I can turn it on right now, but it breaks the java plugin, and regular people won't know what is happening with other profile bugs cause there isn't good gui reporting
<jdstrand> jjohansen: fyi, java bug is bug #484148
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 484148 in firefox-3.5 "apparmor-profiles freezes Firefox when using Java applets (Sun JRE)" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/484148
<jdstrand> I confirned it with openjdk
<jjohansen> thanks
<jjohansen> I'll take a look at it tomorrow
<jdstrand> robbiew: the problem with rasing others to essential is that the the profile (excepting java) works well with Ubuntu
<robbiew> jdstrand: right...then I guess we have our answer ;)
<robbiew> lower it
<robbiew> lol
<jdstrand> robbiew: but, it is known to have problem in Kubuntu, and is untested in Xubuntu
<jdstrand> alright
<jjohansen> can we get the QA team to do some testing?
<kees> jdstrand: I would like to have the firefox maintainer own this profile.
<jjohansen> sure that would be nice
<jdstrand> kees: yeah-- but, tbh, he is gone and there the replacement isn't here yet
 * kees nods
<kees> just wanted to mention it.  :)
<jdstrand> kees: and, if you consider the whole of the distro, it isn't fully baked-- it works for Ubuntu, but untested in other places
<jdstrand> there is quite a bit more that needs to be done development-wise
<jdstrand> I mean, if someone said "hey, assign me that bp" I'd be happy to. no on ei is doing that ;)
<jjohansen> well that is why I asked if we could get QA to do some browser testing
<jdstrand> that would be excellent
<ScottK> Unfortunately this doesn't seem to be the sort of thing they do.
<ScottK> (not endorsing that, just saying)
<robbiew> yeah...but it won't hurt to ask :)
<ScottK> Agreed.
<jjohansen> They might be more willing if we could automate it
<jdstrand> I'd love an automated test for firefox-- I don't have one though (requires the time to learn the tools)
<jjohansen> yeah
<jdstrand> anyway, the rest of the discussion can be done outside of this meeting
<jdstrand> I just wanted to indicate a problem with the priorities and the problems with that item in general
<jdstrand> that is it from me
<jdstrand> kees, robbiew: ^
<robbiew> ack
<kees> anyone have any other questions for the security team?
<ScottK> Probably ought to think about clamav 0.94 ->0.95 soon
<kees> yeah
<ScottK> AFAIK all the packages in backports are in good shap.
<ScottK> They just need to be rebuilt against -security (clamav first and then the rdepends)
<jdstrand> ScottK: so are you saying we are good to go with moving forward on that?
<ScottK> Yes
<jdstrand> ScottK: ok-- I'll take that on
<ScottK> Great.
<jjohansen> not a question, but dfa.minimization won't hit alpha2, its currently buggy
<jdstrand> ScottK: I'll contact you soonish-- I am thinking within the next week or so I get into it fully
<ScottK> jdstrand: OK.  I'll be around.
<jdstrand> ScottK: thanks again for all your hard work on it :)
<jdstrand> jjohansen: ack
<ScottK> Thanks.
<kees> jjohansen: that's fine. cool that it's seeing progress.  :)
<jdstrand> yeah, totally
<ScottK> jdstrand: BTW, cemc (who has been doing most of the testing and some of the rdepends packaging) in planning on going for  Ubuntu membership soon.  I hope you will endorse him.
<jjohansen> it should hit this week, just not by tomorrow
<kees> ScottK: I'd be happy to endorse him too (worked with him on pdns-recursor)
<ScottK> kees: Great.
<jdstrand> ScottK: sure, feel free to have him contact me, and I'll be sure to get him involved in this update
<ScottK> jdstrand: OK.  Will do.
<jdstrand> (visiably involved with me)
<jdstrand> visibly
<jdstrand> anything else?
<ScottK> Not from me.
<jdstrand> alright then, let's adjourn
<jdstrand> kees: ^
<kees> agreed, thanks everyone
<jdstrand> o/
<jjohansen> bye
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-01-12
<cjohnston> o/
<pleia2> hi folks, just waiting on a few people to get this learning team meeting rolling
<pleia2> yay
<cprofitt> sorry folks -- dirty diaper needed changing
<pleia2> ok, let's get this started :)
<pleia2> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 20:07. The chair is pleia2.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<pleia2> welcome everyone, who all is here for the ubuntu community learning project meeting?
<cjohnston> o/
<doctormo> hello
<akgraner> 0/
<pleia2> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning/Agenda
 * cprofitt raises hand
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning/Agenda
<pleia2> our agenda
<_marx_> non member logging
<pleia2> [TOPIC] Review of what we're currently working on
<MootBot> New Topic:  Review of what we're currently working on
<pleia2> ok, I sent an email to the list a few days ago outlining some of where we are at
<pleia2> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-learning/2010-January/000102.html
<pleia2> [LINK] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-learning/2010-January/000102.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-learning/2010-January/000102.html
<cprofitt> 0/
<pleia2> cprofitt: go ahead
<cprofitt> You had asked me about the course layout in terms of Moodle
 * pleia2 nods
<pleia2> we'll review CourseLayout in a minute, I think it's the next agenda item
<cprofitt> I think the layout will need to be modified
<pleia2> ok
<cprofitt> and I am working on that...
<cprofitt> which fits agenda item one
<cprofitt> I can go in to more detail next
<pleia2> ok, cool
<pleia2> so, any comments on our current projects? anyone want to jump in anywhere or let us know about stuff they're working on that the rest of us should know about?
<doctormo> I'm working on a video that shows people how to get involved from a fresh ubuntu install up to having the branch checked out.
<pleia2> cool
<doctormo> should include text instructions too
 * pleia2 nods
<cprofitt> I am working on the layout for Moodle, the Ubuntu Educators site -- which I hope to use to draw some educators to our project - and a Moodle course on Installation
<duanedesign> i added what will hopefully be a lot more Launchpad related courses to my wiki for peer review.
<pleia2> excellent!
<pleia2> duanedesign: link?
<cprofitt> I also made an account for duanedesign so he could transcribe his course to Moodle and offered to assist him
<pleia2> great
<duanedesign> i need to update what i have done to reflect the guidlines at /Learning/CourseLayout
<pleia2> sound like we're making good progress on several fronts then
<pleia2> [TOPIC] Review Course Layout
<MootBot> New Topic:  Review Course Layout
<pleia2> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning/CourseLayout
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning/CourseLayout
<pleia2> ok, just to quickly explain this
<pleia2> doctormo has been hosting Ubuntu classes in the MA LoCo for quite some time, this is the course structure he found to be best for that, and wrote his courses following this layout
<cprofitt> 0/
<pleia2> so the focus certainly is real life classroom teaching
<pleia2> and can also be applied to IRC-based teaching
<doctormo> Hopefully as a stage 2, we can figure out how to use what we know to make student driven online courses...
<pleia2> this might not be the same for moodle, so you have the floor, cprofitt :)
<duanedesign> pleia2: http://okiebuntu.homelinux.com/okwiki
<pleia2> duanedesign: thanks
<cprofitt> I am not sure how much people are familiar with 'course styles'
<cprofitt> for in-person events it would be sychronous...
<cprofitt> on-line courses can be sychronous
<cprofitt> or asychronous (meaning there is not a 'teacher' present or a 'live' class
<cprofitt> for the on-line synchronous courses -- IRC would be used even with Moodle courses
<cprofitt> this model will work...
<cprofitt> for Asychronous courses - instructor led or self-study
<cprofitt> the demonstration will take a different form
<cprofitt> so that is all that has to be altered
<pleia2> cprofitt: yeah, that's what I figured
<cprofitt> doctormo: I have already done that for the Professional Learning Board
<cprofitt> so it is fairly easy...
<cprofitt> but it will be best... as most creating courses for us will likely lack experience in asychronous course design, to give some solid examples
 * pleia2 nods
<cprofitt> my own process took several review sessions with the educational professional that was my mentor at The Professional Learning Board
<cprofitt> I still would like to get a curriculum expert for K-12 or College to assist us if possible
<pleia2> that would be nice
<cprofitt> as I do not feel I have enough experience
<cprofitt> one other component that we may want to consider
<cprofitt> for all course styles is pre-assessment
<cprofitt> which would be a quiz about the course material taken prior to the course
<cprofitt> this would assist people who may or may not know the material...
<pleia2> ah, interesting
<cprofitt> and assist instructors in knowing what the 'strong' or 'weak' areas are for each student or the group as a whole
<cprofitt> it allows us to 'tailor' the course to better fit the student
<doctormo> Very interesting
<Vantrax> very good idea
<cprofitt> Its fairly common in education... so I take no credit for the idea...
<cprofitt> I am merely a parrot in this case
<cprofitt> :-)
<pleia2> well it certainly helps to have someone on the team who has expertise in this
<doctormo> cprofitt: Don't be so humble, we're all meme vectors in our own way.
<cprofitt> ... osmosis expertise.
<cprofitt> I just listen to teachers...
<Vantrax> yeah, i was just thinking I was doing that in the training course I was running last week
<cprofitt> :-)
<pleia2> so, regarding the course layout, the verdict is that it will need to be altered for asyncronous moodle courses
<_marx_> cprofitt: how transportable would this moodle be?
<cprofitt> _marx_: Moodle is very transportable...
<cprofitt> if you are going to use it on another Moodle installation
<cprofitt> or export it
<_marx_> so I could take it to my local library on *my server and run it?
<cprofitt> if you installed Moodle yes
<cprofitt> the only possible gotcha is if we added a module...
<pleia2> ok, I want to stay focused here
<cprofitt> then the target Moodle server would need the module installed as well
<_marx_> good, thx
<pleia2> we can follow up after the meeting with moodle technical questions :)
<Vantrax> modules we should probably avoid unless they are A) Common or B) Critical
<pleia2> Vantrax: +1
 * doctormo hugs pleia2, trying to keep things on topic
<dinda1> what is the current topic?
<pleia2> cprofitt: do you see any problems with the course layout as it is? will it be very hard to modify for moodle?
<pleia2> dinda1: discussing https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning/CourseLayout
<cprofitt> pleia2: I do not -- but converting an actual course from A to B may reveal things I did not anticipate
<pleia2> ok, great :)
<pleia2> I know it will be imperfect, but I'm hoping most of the material will be ok
<pleia2> I am going to postpone the next agenda item until the end of the meeting
<pleia2> [TOPIC] GroundControl familiarity
<MootBot> New Topic:  GroundControl familiarity
<pleia2> doctormo: you're up
<cprofitt> 0/
<doctormo> As I said before I'll be doing a video and some text on ground control... a project that enables our contributors to get involved without ever touching a command line.
<pleia2> cprofitt: feel free to just speak up, this is a small meeting so we can keep it a bit informal :)
<pleia2> doctormo: is there a project page?
<doctormo> Part of this will include giving a hands on session with ubuntu learning members, so I know were all good on what it does and how it works.
<cprofitt> that is what I was going to ask pleia2
<doctormo> https://edge.launchpad.net/groundcontrol
<pleia2> [LINK] https://edge.launchpad.net/groundcontrol
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://edge.launchpad.net/groundcontrol
 * pleia2 thinks MootBot doesn't understand https
<cprofitt> so this project makes interacting with launchpad easier?
<pleia2> doctormo: is this the child of the project you were working on at UDS?
<doctormo> cprofitt: You didn't see the demo at UDS so perhaps pleia2 can give a view on it.
<cprofitt> or we can talk off-line
<doctormo> pleia2: Yes, you saw the first half
<pleia2> excellent
<cprofitt> I was just looking for a quick summary, if possible, on how it fitst with UCLP
 * Vantrax agrees with cp on the summary
<doctormo> cprofitt: It configures bzr, launchpad and the two combined, it allows you to view projects from a button in nautilus and add them, and then add a branch from those folders.
<cprofitt> and how does that fit with UCLP?
<cprofitt> I think I see that... but want to make sure.
<doctormo> cprofitt: It allows users to get course material for editing, save the material, push it back up and get a merge request.
<cprofitt> K
<cprofitt> does it have 'check-in' 'check-out' built in to it...
<cprofitt> forgive me for not knowing if that is a LP function or not
<pleia2> yep
<doctormo> cprofitt: It's worded differently, It's "Get Code" (bzr branch) and "Save Code" (bzr commit) "Upload Code" (bzr push) and "Finished!" (merge request)
<doctormo> You only ever see one button at a time
<cprofitt> I got that bit on the first part doctormo but thanks for the clarification
<cprofitt> sounds like a solid project...
<doctormo> It should be useful outside of ULCP too
<cprofitt> it should certainly help users that are not familiar with console-foo
<pleia2> yeah, a lot of people were excited about it at UDS
<pleia2> this looks great doctormo, thanks for the intro :)
<pleia2> shall we move on?
<doctormo> Aye
<pleia2> [TOPIC] Plans for editing material
<MootBot> New Topic:  Plans for editing material
<pleia2> ok doctormo, all yours again
<doctormo> So the second phaise two
<doctormo> We have our scripts which can create new classes, that can compile to html and pdf and do most of the heavy lifting.
<doctormo> All that's required of current editors is that they be able to open up a text file and edit it.
 * pleia2 nods
<doctormo> But I want to make it easier... since it requires contributors to understand that the file is split up into 5 parts
<doctormo> and still requires cli use for making new classes
<cprofitt> 0/
<doctormo> So this part will probably be a small quickly app which opens up and shows a list of sections and classes in a tree and then allows users to edit a class via gui.
<pleia2> neat
<pleia2> cprofitt: go ahead
<cprofitt> if there are changes to the way courses are 'created' will this program require changes or is it flexible?
<cprofitt> I am just concerned because we have yet to, at least to my knowledge, grant final approval on the course structure and methodology due to us not having transferred a course to Moodle
<cprofitt> and I also want to make sure it is flexible in the case of other changes...
<pleia2> all of this is taking time, it's my hope that we'll have some courses finished in *some* format (even if it's odt) to transfer to moodle before doctormo is done with coding
<cprofitt> or in other words I hope to not have work lost... or creat a tool that may bind us to a particular structure
<doctormo> cprofitt: It would be flexible in terms of number of sections, with only the title being a fixed entry.
<pleia2> and doctormo has several courses already completed, we could look into putting one of them into moodle now
<doctormo> pleia2: Yes this is certanly a phaise 2, I don't expect to hold people up with it.
<cprofitt> pleia2: we should... it would help us to A) learn the process and B) solidify the process
<pleia2> sounds good :)
<doctormo> cprofitt: sounds like I should walk you through it, I've done that with pleia2 and nigel
<pleia2> doctormo: this is great, thanks for putting so much work into making things easy for the contributor
<cprofitt> I could offer to assit doctormo convert the courses like with duanedesign
<cprofitt> doctormo: that would help me understand it... but I trust you...
<cprofitt> I just want to make sure, for your point of view, that it is flexible
<doctormo> cprofitt: I sometimes go too far with flexability :-)
<doctormo> So I can confirm it'll be flexible enough for us to quickly add new sections as they become required.
<cprofitt> I don't think flexibilty can go too far...
<doctormo> cprofitt: Have you ever tried to hold water?
<pleia2> well, when doctormo gets lost for 3 months doing customizations on flexibility we'll know that that point has been reached :)
<pleia2> do we have anything else on this subject?
<cprofitt> not I
<doctormo> nope
<pleia2> [TOPIC] Formalize tasklist to move forward
<MootBot> New Topic:  Formalize tasklist to move forward
<pleia2> ok, some action items!
<doctormo> How does next monday evening sound for a run through of course creation on the lp/bzr side?
<cprofitt> doctormo: lets discuss after this topic
<pleia2> cprofitt: want each of us pick one of doctormo's completed sysadmin courses and start putting it into moodle?
<doctormo> cprofitt: I mean to say, that this should be added to the task list.
<doctormo> pleia2: That actually sounds like an awesome idea
<pleia2> I won't be around next monday, but I'm pretty familiar with the process and there are logs :)
<cprofitt> pleia2: that would be a good idea...
<pleia2> [ACTION] cprofitt and pleia2 to each select one of doctormo's sysadmin courses and put into moodle
<MootBot> ACTION received:  cprofitt and pleia2 to each select one of doctormo's sysadmin courses and put into moodle
<cprofitt> I am booked next week on Thursday... and my wife talked to me about a date -- but I have forgotten which it is
<pleia2> [ACTION] Schedule evening for cprofitt and doctormo to a run through of course creation on the lp/bzr side
<MootBot> ACTION received:  Schedule evening for cprofitt and doctormo to a run through of course creation on the lp/bzr side
<pleia2> [ACTION] review duanedesign's launchpad courses
<MootBot> ACTION received:  review duanedesign's launchpad courses
<cprofitt> duanedesign: is also migrating one of those to Moodle
<cprofitt> and will work with me as he has questions
<pleia2> [ACTION] duanedesign migrating a launchpad course to Moodle
<MootBot> ACTION received:  duanedesign migrating a launchpad course to Moodle
<pleia2> anything else?
<cprofitt> Not that I have.
<pleia2> cprofitt has ongoing moodle stuff, doctormo has ongoing dev work, so I won't bother with those
<cprofitt> have any of you take a look at the Ubuntu educators Ning?
<doctormo> No
<pleia2> yeah, but I don't understand ning :)
<cprofitt> http://ubuntuedu.ning.com/
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://ubuntuedu.ning.com/
<doctormo> Oh wait, now I remember, social site
<cprofitt> it is just a social site...
<cprofitt> I have advertised it on several of the educational sites I am a member on
<pleia2> kind of like a forum?
<cprofitt> think portal...
 * pleia2 nods
<cprofitt> a collection of parts
<doctormo> Wow that looks beautiful
<cprofitt> one of which is a forum
<cprofitt> I hope to use the site as a 'more familiar' site for teachers interested in or already using Ubuntu in the classroom
<pleia2> ok, now I think I understand
<cprofitt> and those who support them
<doctormo> pleia2: you saw my ubuntu artists group on dA... it sort of like that but for educators.
<pleia2> gotcha
<cprofitt> it ties in with our project, but also serves its own person
<cprofitt> once we get the courses published -- Moodle or PDF then I want to link to them
<pleia2> cool
<cprofitt> so the courses get used... and we get some feedback from Educators
<pleia2> yeah, that's great
<cprofitt> I also, really hope, that some of these folks contribute
<cprofitt> but we will see
 * pleia2 nods
<pleia2> ok, let's wrap this up
<pleia2> any parting thoughts?
<pleia2> I want to say that this has been an awesome meeting, one of our best! we're making progress on a number of fronts, and it's exciting :) so thanks everyone
 * cprofitt shakes his head no
<cprofitt> Yes, thanks everyone.
<cprofitt> fantastic work and good progress
<cprofitt> special thanks to Pleia who is doing an excellent job of pointing us all towards the goalline
<doctormo> I think so!
<pleia2> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 21:00.
<cprofitt> right on time :-)
<akgraner> pleia2, I am working on the Leadership Series stuff this week once I get through with Chapter 3 do I just let you know?
<pleia2> akgraner: that sounds good
<cprofitt> nigel_nb: you need course creator rights?
<KatieKitty> :)
 * persia peers about
 * TheMuso is here.
<DrGS> DrG is here
<persia> DrGS: Are you "DrG", or is that just a very similar nick?
<persia> Ah :)
<persia> amachu seems away, but both our candidates are here.
<DrGS> I am DrG the nick was not available
<KatieKitty> hi
<freeflyi1g> persia: hi
<KatieKitty> :)
<persia> lifeless: elky ?
<lifeless> hi
<lifeless> am here, a tad distracted by coughing
<DrGS> :)
 * persia provides lifeless with virtual lemon honey tea
<persia> Well, we're nominally quorate at this point.  Shall we start at 10:10, to give a couple more minutes for elky or amachu to join us?
 * TheMuso is happy to wait.
 * KatieKitty says no probs
 * popey volunteers if they're not around
<DrGS> sure
<farimi> hi all
<KatieKitty> hi
<KatieKitty> :)
<farimi> so, what is the agenda
<farimi> :P
<TheMuso> Agenda is here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/AsiaOceania
<persia> Who's the chair?
<lifeless> you
<persia> heh.
<persia> OK.  First up is DrG.
<persia> DrGS: Could you post a few lines to introduce yourself?
<DrGS> :-[
<DrGS> I am a Doctor ; Currently doing research in genetic recombination technology
<DrGS> from RGBC
<DrGS> Also GP in some private Hospitals .
<farimi> so, what am I doing here again/
<coolbhavi> DrGS, am also from India .. what does GP mean?
<popey> General Practitioner
<DrGS> Yes
<coolbhavi> popey, thanks
<persia> DrGS: From looking at your wiki page, it appears that most of your contributions to date have been in brainstorm.  Is that correct?
<DrGS> Yes
<persia> Have you had success in getting any of your ideas implemented in Ubuntu yet?
<DrGS> Frugal boot time - not implemented , but very much possible .
<DrGS> The developer checks brainstorm about once in 6 months
<persia> Have you significantly shaped brainstorm in some way?
<DrGS> You can read my Ideas and decide
<persia> I meant in a way beyond the ideas.  Like working with how brainstorm works, or how ideas in brainstorm are used to affect other areas in Ubuntu.
<DrGS> Contacted brainstorm owner (nand ) and thinking about modifying the sites . I have the codes .
<DrGS> You can see most of my Ideas are independent .
<persia> Anyone else have questions?
<TheMuso> Not I.
<TheMuso> Only to ask whether there is anyone here to advocate DrGS.
<elky> sorry, here now
<persia> Hrm.  It doesn't appear that anyone is here to support DrGS.
<persia> So, voting.
<bundo> oh suapapa Hi
<bundo> Hello , persia    I'm ubuntu-ko owner. South Korea
<persia> hi bundo
<bundo> ë§ëì ë°ê°ìµëë¤.  sharkout ìê² ì´ì¼ê¸° ë¤ììµëë¤.
<bundo> Nice to meet you. I heard a story sharkout.
<persia> I'm -1.  I think there's some good thought and work going on, but I don't feel that the work is yet "significant", in that it does not appear to have yet affected either the Ubuntu code or brainstorm (the primary area of activity).
<TheMuso> I agree with persia, -1 also.
<lifeless> DrGS: I think the ideas you have in brainstorm are good. However we don't currently really recognise brainstorm activity - both gardening and idea generation - as a significant contribution.
<suapapa> hello :)
<lifeless> DrGS: Its clear you have done some significant research on some of your ideas - and one at least (the frugal boot) you seem to have implemented and tested the idea : but not got it actually into Ubuntu.
<lifeless> DrGS: So, like persia and TheMuso I don't think you meet the criteria we look for yet.
<DrGS> OK
<elky> DrGS, am i reading launchpad right? you only signed up 6 weeks ago? or did you have another ID?
<lifeless> DrGS: we're looking for actual /change/ occuring - some examples of which might be:
<elky> if you had another ID with more stuff, then that could be helpful here
<lifeless>  - users helped (and thus the change is that they learnt)
<DrGS> I don't have another ID
<lifeless>  - ideas that are popular in brainstorm implemented so they are in the next ubuntu release
<elky> ok, then i second what lifeless is saying. sorry :( -1
<lifeless>  - forum activity helping folk out
<lifeless>  - translations for your language
<DrGS> no
<coolbhavi> DrGS, we at ubuntu-in have dire shortage at ubuntu-in of dedicated translators/workrs
<lifeless> there are many many more things - and I encourage you to keep contributing
<coolbhavi> maybe you can help out
<KatieKitty> :)
<lifeless> you're simple at the tip of the iceberg today!
<coolbhavi> and then elevate with testimonial of a ubuntu member
<DrGS> OK
<persia> DrGS: So, thanks for your work so far, we're looking forward to more, and we'll see you back in a few months :)  Feel free to ask any of us (or members in ubuntu-in) if you have questions about whether it's time to come back yet.
<persia> Next up: KatieKitty.  KatieKitty could you paste a few lines to introduce yourself?
<KatieKitty> ok thx
<elky> coolbhavi, thanks for the tip. we appreciate folks participating in the membership process by mentoring like this
<DrGS> OK :)
<KatieKitty> i am 27 From KL, Malaysia
<lifeless> DrGS: I do love the care and attention you've put into your brainstorm ideas: getting some of them /done/ would be really nice to see.
<coolbhavi> elky, that was a simple one .. No mention :)
<DrGS> That is upto the Developers
<KatieKitty> currently working as freelance in computing stuff
<KatieKitty> like network, maintenance etc
<lifeless> DrGS: no, its up to all of us: the developers are not specially blessed :)
<KatieKitty> team leader of ubuntu-my translation & documentation team
<DrGS> But they are the one  who implement Ideas
<coolbhavi> DrGS, +1 lifeless
<coolbhavi> DrGS, power user == developer in linux in general mate
<elky> coolbhavi, can we request that you talk with DrGS privately about his options? :)
<KatieKitty> shall I continue in my self introduction?
<KatieKitty> :)
<coolbhavi> elky, sure
<DrGS> sure
<leoquant> please do KatieKitty
<KatieKitty> ok
<KatieKitty> i am 27 From KL, Malaysia
<KatieKitty> currently working as freelance in computing stuff
<KatieKitty> like network, maintenance etc
<KatieKitty> team leader of ubuntu-my translation & documentation team
<KatieKitty> been full time use ubuntu since feisty
 * KatieKitty is a ubuntu & debian lover
<freeflyi1g> KatieKitty: you're the team leader of ubuntu-my translation, but your karma relate to translation is only 163
<KatieKitty> yeah
<KatieKitty> coz we are all very inactive....
<KatieKitty> due to work
<KatieKitty> and most of us is already too comfortable in using english
<KatieKitty> lol
<lifeless> are you doing anything to get more translators?
<KatieKitty> me and other members is trying to promote the trans & doc team in a lot of foss event
<KatieKitty> but too bad, it is hard to get more ppl to be interested in trans & doc work...
<lifeless> is https://edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-l10n-ms  the my translation team ?
<KatieKitty> nop
<KatieKitty> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-my-transdocs
<lifeless> I was just looking around, and it and https://edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-my-transdocs confuse me a little
<KatieKitty> we register a few launchpad pages
<KatieKitty> lol
<KatieKitty> some if official, some is not
<KatieKitty> but we use all of them
<elky> :-/
<KatieKitty> translation work is started since long time ago
<freeflying> KatieKitty: are you collaborating with ubuntu-l10n-ms
<KatieKitty> yeah
<lifeless> https://translations.edge.launchpad.net/+languages/ms is your language though ?
<KatieKitty> we are actually the same group of ppl
<KatieKitty> lol
<KatieKitty> lifeless: yup
<freeflying> KatieKitty: then why shall you have so many teams on lp?
<lifeless> so, for me, its disconcerting to see the ubuntu translation team - which is the l10n-ms one - not be the one that you refer to when you say you're the team lead
<KatieKitty> trans & doc is officially builded after meeting in #ubuntu-my
<lifeless> the team you talk about doesn't have translation review privileges for ubuntu ms translations
<KatieKitty> and i was voted to become the team leader of that
<freeflying> KatieKitty: do you anyone here to support you then?
<elky> who is the leader of ubuntu-l10n-ms?
<KatieKitty> actually it can be verified by asking ejat a.k.a fenris
<farimi> yes
<KatieKitty> but he seems like din make it online in time
<lifeless> elky: https://edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-l10n-ms/+members#proposed - there are a few admins
<lifeless> and ~mypapit owns the team
<lifeless> anyhow, thats moot: if you have a new team and its all approved in the -my loco thats cool
<KatieKitty> translation management work was transferred to me after a meeting...
<lifeless> It is odd that you haven't gotten the sysadmins to add it as a translation team for Malay
<farimi> actualy they are the same people... mostly
<lifeless> farimi: yeah thats fine.
<elky> i'm 0 based purely on confusion.
<KatieKitty> we are actually the same group of ppl in #ubuntu-my
<lifeless> what its saying to me is that an important thing - the ability to review translations, which these folk should be able to do - hasn't been actioned in 3 months
<KatieKitty> anyone is free, then do the work
<KatieKitty> lol
 * persia hunts up some translation folk
<lifeless> and actioning it just takes a single 'question' on answers.launchpad.net
<KatieKitty> :)
<persia> KatieKitty: How are your translations typically distributed to end-users?
<KatieKitty> actually currently, ubuntu-my is more focus on getting more supporter for ubuntu as well as active in foss activities
<lifeless> lets move on though: you are team lead there, but busy with work so not doing much yourself, but trying to increase the team size
<KatieKitty> persia: honestly, i still have no idea yet, usually everything i will have to ask fenris 1st
<lifeless> persia: the l10n-ms team has 9 unapproved proposed members.
<persia> lifeless: Yeah.
<lifeless> persia: I think its a bit under-maintained - and katiekitty isn't an admin in that team.
<KatieKitty> actually i think that ubuntu-my should have another official meeting in irx
<KatieKitty> but too bad, everyone is bz...
<KatieKitty> and hard to find a time that everyone is online at the same time
<persia> I think I'm with elky: 0 due to confusion.
<lifeless> is there anyone online to champion you - e.g. as reference for your user support in #ubunu-my
<lifeless> ?
<KatieKitty> wait
<TheMuso> persia, elky, agreed. 0
<KatieKitty> i try to call fenris to online
<freeflying> 0 from me
<KatieKitty> see if he reach home already or not
<farimi> so,katiekitty is building traslation team?
<lifeless> KatieKitty: so I see a lot of projects you have, but they are mostly things built /on/ linux. Your direct contributions seem to be partly translation [and idle at the moment due to work] and
<lifeless> user support in the -my irc channel.
<lifeless> KatieKitty: is that right ?
<KatieKitty> talking to fenris on the phone
<KatieKitty> brb
<lifeless> s/linux/Ubuntu/ above
<KatieKitty> he s trying to online now...
<KatieKitty> :)
<KatieKitty> sorry for the delay
<KatieKitty> fenris is trying to online from a cafe to verify my status
<KatieKitty> hehehe
<KatieKitty> lifeless: actually those projects in my wiki profile is done with only a few person
<KatieKitty> those are actually just a remastered version of ubuntu only....
<lifeless> what is the #ubuntu-my channel ?
<lifeless> is it captured on irclogs.ubuntu.com?
<KatieKitty> #ubuntu-my channel is the official channel for ubuntu-my loco
<elky> !logs
<ubottu> Official channel logs can be found at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/ - For LoCo channels, http://logs.ubuntu-eu.org/freenode/
<KatieKitty> i think so
<elky> it'll be under the latter
<KatieKitty> there is 2 bot there
<ejat> lifeless: yes .. its log
<ejat> hi elky
<ejat> hi all
<KatieKitty> hi ejat
<lifeless> thanks elky
<KatieKitty> thank god u online now
<KatieKitty> hahahah
<lifeless> heh no timestamps
<elky> ejat, hi. we're all totally confused as to what the malay translation teams are
<KatieKitty> ejat: sorry for call u last minutes
<ejat> KatieKitty: i hv to use my phone ...
<ejat> elky: ?
<ejat> malay translation team ?
<elky> the my translation team
<elky> sorry
<ejat> owh its about translate to malay
<ejat> any application .. ubuntu documentation
<KatieKitty> ejat: they need ur verification about https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-my-transdocs
<KatieKitty> lol
<ejat> KatieKitty: leading the team .. under ubuntu-my locoteam
<persia> ejat: Can you explain the difference between ubuntu-my-transdocs and ubuntu-l10n-ms ?
<lifeless> ejat: also its not set up as a translation team in rosetta though, which is odd.
<lifeless> ok, so having had a brief look on the irc logs, I'm also 0 at this point.
<persia> Any other questions for KatieKitty ?
<persia> Err, nevermind.
<persia> I read the logs wrong.  We've all voted.
<persia> KatieKitty: I'd recommend you try to sort out the confusion regarding the translation team, and get it active again.  When done, come back :)
<lifeless> KatieKitty: We're really looking for something a bit more tangible. The projects on your wiki page are ones that are /around/ Ubuntu not part of Ubuntu itself. The translation team you're leading isn't fully setup in rosetta - one of the responsibilities for the team leader!
<lifeless> I can see you're active a bit most days in #ubuntu-my, and thats great, but its not enough on its own.
<KatieKitty> :)....
<ejat> lifeless: i agreed with u ..
<lifeless> ejat: thank you for popping online
<Belutz> Sorry for being late
<ejat> nvm .. my broadband hv prob .. now online with my phone ..
<ejat> hi Belutz
<Belutz> ejat: hi
<ejat> KatieKitty: leading more toward the documentation , tutorial n malaysia ..
<ejat> on the wiki.ubuntu.com.my
<KatieKitty> :)
<farimi> yes true
<ejat> for application translation .. we still under ubuntu-l10n-ms
<ejat> team in rosetta ..
<ejat> example .. our malay translation for firefox n a few other gnome application ..
<KatieKitty> .....
<lifeless> KatieKitty: something you should do - this is a strong recommendation - talk to the rosetta (launchpad translations) developers about your teams
<lifeless> get those two teams setup properly in a way they are happy with.
<KatieKitty> lifeless: ok....
<lifeless> if the l10n team admins are gone you can be made an admin, or whatever. But as it is it is very unclear.
<KatieKitty> will do that soon
<ejat> lifeless: but a part of the translation team
<elky> KatieKitty, if you could fix all this and make it sensible, then that'd be something that would make me impressed enough to change my vote. that'd be *real* leadership :)
<ejat> KatieKitty: contribute a lot in ubuntu-my activities
<persia> OK.  I think we've all given appropriate advice now. :)
<persia> KatieKitty: Please feel free to ask any of us privately if you feel you need more.
<KatieKitty> persia: thank you....
<persia> Anyone have anything else they need to bring before the board today?
<KatieKitty> persia: will do.....
<lifeless> I'll be away next meeting
<ejat> KatieKitty: u still have a chance if u follow their advice :)
<lifeless> eu timezone. I may be online but can't be sure.
<Belutz> persia, yes, I will be more active again from now on :)
<KatieKitty> ejat: yeah, i'll try my best.....
<persia> Belutz: It will be good to have you back.
<ejat> yeah .. Belutz away for quite sometime
<persia> lifeless: We should be OK, as long as Belutz makes it.
<Belutz> persia, thanks, moving to a startup company is killing me
<persia> Next meeting is the 26th.
 * persia updates the wiki pages.
<TheMuso> I should be able to make next meeting
<elky> Belutz, startups should carry health warnings.
<TheMuso> I know I haven't been visible as much as I should have been.
<Belutz> elky, yup
<KatieKitty> persia: i have a question, do contribution to activities such as in ubuntu events can be used for consideration for applying for membership at here?
<persia> KatieKitty: If the event is used to promote or improve Ubuntu, yes, but you'll want to be someone involved in making the event happen, rather than just someone attending.
<elky> KatieKitty, if documented, yes. also teams like marketing (they can use UWN translated), ubuntu-women, etc.
<KatieKitty> thx
<Belutz> I hope everybody in asia oceania board are healthy and a late happy new year :D
<KatieKitty> elky: actually i am a male....
<KatieKitty> lol
<ejat> Belutz: hopefully ..
<KatieKitty> so i am not in ubuntu-women......
<elky> KatieKitty, oh sorry for the confusion there :(
<KatieKitty> hahahaha
 * KatieKitty is virtually female, physically male
<elky> although, gender doesn't matter so long as you believe in and are willing to stand by the ideals
<KatieKitty> :)
<ejat> +1 elky :)
<elky> KatieKitty, you wouldn't be alone.
<KatieKitty> elky: thats y i joined fosschix-my, lol
<elky> :)
<ejat> elky: hows ya new year ?
<KatieKitty> coz i believe in females can do a lot in opensource
<ejat> elky: i will persue the chix in MY .. to join
<elky> ejat, it is ok. yours?
<ejat> elky: yeah .. hope can meet u again this year :)
<elky> i think this meeting is closed now, so we should move social talk to elsewhere
<ejat> elky: yeah ..
<wet>  oops ..
<NCommander> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 06:59. The chair is NCommander.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
 * asac waves
 * JamieBennett waves back
 * ogra moos
<asac> persia: ogra: dyfet: davidm_: plars: StevenK: ping
<asac> GrueMaster: ping
<plars> present
<NCommander> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2010/20100112
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2010/20100112
<GrueMaster> pong
<dyfet> pong
<NCommander> [link] http://piware.de/workitems/mobile/lucid-alpha2/report.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://piware.de/workitems/mobile/lucid-alpha2/report.html
<davidm_> present
<asac> NCommander: no topic?
<NCommander> [topic] Action Item Review
<MootBot> New Topic:  Action Item Review
<JamieBennett> also cooloney ping
<asac> yeah
<JamieBennett> oh
<asac> ericm not here
<NCommander> [topic] NCommander to invite relevant kernel people to the next meeting.
<MootBot> New Topic:  NCommander to invite relevant kernel people to the next meeting.
<asac> i made them aware ... guess the reminder mail didnt go to them though, right?
<NCommander> asac, yeah. I had talked to both of them though
<NCommander> hey ericm_
<ericm_> hey NCommander
<ogra> NCommander, they should be on the list for the reminder mail
<asac> ok, do we need an action or will this happen now?
<ogra> NCommander, or be invited to the gcal event
<asac> persia: NCommander:?
<asac> ok, lets carry it over to see if it happens next time :)
<NCommander> [action] NCommander to add mobile kernel devs to gcal event
<MootBot> ACTION received:  NCommander to add mobile kernel devs to gcal event
<persia> They should be subscribed to the mailing list, or manage their calendars well :)
<NCommander> [topic] asac, ogra, persia to make sure .32 backporting for imx51 kernels is documented somewhere
<MootBot> New Topic:  asac, ogra, persia to make sure .32 backporting for imx51 kernels is documented somewhere
<persia> We had the meeting.  I'm not yet done with a wiki page.  Can we defer this until later in the meeting?
<asac> yes
<NCommander> [action] asac, ogra, persia to make sure .32 backporting for imx51 kernels is documented somewhere (c/o)
<MootBot> ACTION received:  asac, ogra, persia to make sure .32 backporting for imx51 kernels is documented somewhere (c/o)
<asac> we should carry that forward. the wiki isnt done yet
<ogra> right
<NCommander> [topic] ogra, asac, NCommander to blog on planet about ARM work
<MootBot> New Topic:  ogra, asac, NCommander to blog on planet about ARM work
 * StevenK waves
<persia> Don't carry it forward yet: come back during this meeting :)
<ogra> nothing intresting to blog about yet
<JamieBennett> ogra: uboot work?
<ogra> i'll blog about the babbage switch to uboot once thats working
<asac> no success story there yet
 * cooloney waves
<ogra> and about rootstock changes once i have any :)
<NCommander> [topic] Work item review
<MootBot> New Topic:  Work item review
<ogra> i dont think we need an action item for it though
<NCommander> As a reminder, all work items due for A2 are due, and mus tbe marked complete, or postponed
<NCommander> asac, JamieBennett, how goes the MIRs for 2d launcher?
<JamieBennett> Seems we have some resolution
<asac> we committed to take care of the main concern
<JamieBennett> 2 MIR's still need reviewing though
 * ogra moves uboot to A3
<asac> so the MIR for embryo is probably unblocked
<ogra> ... with a tear in my eye
<JamieBennett> Just need pitti to approve it now
 * NCommander gives ogra a tissue
<NCommander> [topic] asac to report on Chromiums licensing issue progress
<MootBot> New Topic:  asac to report on Chromiums licensing issue progress
<JamieBennett> all other non-blocking issues have bugs filed in debian
<asac> i plan to go through the blueprints for alpha-3 with each of you now
<ogra> *sniff*
<asac> thats done. its in my AR ...
<asac> quite good progress, just a few rough edges left
<NCommander> [topic] Current Items
<MootBot> New Topic:  Current Items
<NCommander> The burndown chart for A2 is looking good
<NCommander> http://piware.de/workitems/mobile/lucid-alpha2/report.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://piware.de/workitems/mobile/lucid-alpha2/report.html
<dmart> Stupid question: how do I mark an action as complete?
<asac> yeah, so on friday we were still at trendline, since then not much happened, as expected
<asac> dmart: flip from TODO to DONE
<asac> in the blueprint
<ogra> dmart, you write [DONE] behind it in the whiteboard
<asac> if you finished items, please set them to DONE.
<ogra> on the blueprint page
<dmart> OK
<asac> i will go through the blueprints later this week for the alpha-3 planning
<dmart> Cool
<asac> and do the cleanup
<persia> And report it in an action report on the meeting page :)
<persia> (if it's a significant thing)
<dmart> Of course, will do
<JamieBennett> Need to get alpha-2 targeted blueprints re-targeted if they are not at 100% awell
<asac> dmart: yes, feel free to add your own entry to that wiki :)
<asac> we would love to have more contributors presenting their work there
 * JamieBennett agrees
<NCommander> +1
<ogra> ++
<asac> so ... one more word on the action items
<asac> i think there are still action items that dont need upload to archive
<asac> those can still be finished this week
<ogra> dont forget we're working on the alpha
<asac> not everyone
 * persia is ready for kernel backport discussion when the agenda has a slot
<NCommander> Is there anything to discuss on Ubuntu Liquid?
<ogra> wed and thu are usually stressful days during alpha periods
<asac> NCommander: what is the problem with the alternate images?
<rbelem> yep
<asac> its at 71%
<NCommander> asac, I haven't managed to actually install one
<NCommander> asac, a lot of churn in the archive causes the resulting image to be uninstallable, as in a package fails to install or the like.
<StevenK> I think arm-une should be retargetted to A3, we don't have the launcher in main yet
<asac> rbelem: ian_brasil_: you are also invited to add your stuff to the wiki
<rbelem> cool
<ian_brasil_> asac, ok we will
<NCommander> asac, now that we're in freeze, I should have better success, and will be retesting today
<JamieBennett> StevenK It is at alpha-3 now
<GrueMaster> I tried the dove alternate image last Friday and had a package install failure.  Not sure what package.
<asac> NCommander: thanks. let me know. i would love to not drag everything to alpha-3 ... we already have enough to do there
<NCommander> GrueMaster, today's should be better as we've entered main freeze
<NCommander> ian_brasil_, rbelem anything to report on Ubuntu Liquid?
<rbelem> NCommander, yep
<ogra> GrueMaster, save installer logs !
<ogra> they usually say which package
<GrueMaster> right
<rbelem> NCommander, we packaged the plasma-mobile
<asac> ogra: can you keep the uboot still on a2 please
<asac> the problem is the work item tracker is a mess
<ogra> asac, hrm, ok
 * ogra rolls back
<asac> e.g. you cannot move just what is left to a3
<rbelem> NCommander, outside the kdebase
<ogra> asac, moved back
<asac> ogra: we can do that on release day
<asac> thanks
<rbelem> NCommander, started to work on the seeds
<rbelem> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/UbuntuLiquid/Seed
<asac> maybe we should have a real topic for liquid?
<asac> standing item?
<NCommander> rbelem, excellent. I look forward to further progress on l
 * NCommander has no objection
<rbelem> rbelem, we will now on customize kdm and kwin for mobile
<NCommander> I'll add it for the next meeting
<Riddell> rbelem: what's all this?
<rbelem> NCommander, ^
<asac> [action] asac to add liquid to standing items for next meeting
<asac> hmm cant take actions :)
<NCommander> [action] asac to add liquid to standing items for next meeting
<MootBot> ACTION received:  asac to add liquid to standing items for next meeting
<NCommander> asac, only the chair has the power to do so
<persia> Um, why asac?
<NCommander> [topic] Standing Items
<MootBot> New Topic:  Standing Items
<StevenK> Exactly
<persia> NCommander: Wait.  Not yet.
<asac> persia: to give them a slot where we can discuss roadblocks etc.
 * persia wants to talk about kernel backporting for FSL
<asac> and see progress ;)
<rbelem> Riddell, we will work on plasma mobile to be the shell for ubuntu liquid
<asac> persia: we can discuss that in kernel status standing item ;)
<persia> OK.
<rbelem> Riddell, i will help arthur with the code and etc
<asac> persia: do you have concerns with having a slot for liquid?
<persia> asac: No.  I just don't understand why the action is assigned to you, rather than the chair :)
<asac> heh. ok
<persia> Doesn't matter.  Let's go on.
<Riddell> rbelem: that's the sort of thing the Kubuntu team would be interested in hearing about
<asac> because i added a bunch of them this time already
<rbelem> Riddell, yep :-)
<rbelem> Riddell, we really want your help
<NCommander> Any objection if I continue?
<NCommander> [topic] Kernel Status (cooloney, ericm)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Kernel Status (cooloney, ericm)
<asac> i would think Riddell and rbelem can do that offline
<asac> yes.
<JamieBennett> NCommander did you miss - dmart: Discuss how to process the ARMv7/Thumb-2 compatibility review list ?
<JamieBennett> Or did I ?
<rbelem> ok
<NCommander> oh, *grumble*
<asac> one word on the standing items:
<NCommander> [topic] Discuss how to process the ARMv7/Thumb-2 compatibility review list ?
<MootBot> New Topic:  Discuss how to process the ARMv7/Thumb-2 compatibility review list ?
<JamieBennett> dmart
<dmart> Did everyone see the link to the wiki?
<cooloney> yeah, guys, i think i updated the status for fsl-imx51 on the wiki
<asac> ok waiting
<dmart> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ARM/Thumb2PackageReviewList
<asac> dmart: yes, thank you very much.
<NCommander> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ARM/Thumb2PackageReviewList
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ARM/Thumb2PackageReviewList
<asac> dmart: i wondered if you had the the grep lines of concerns there ...
<asac> would probably be helpful in order to spot the code to look at when verifying if a package needs a fix etc.
<dmart> The detail is in the page attachments
<asac> thats the full blob, yes.
<asac> we can use that
<NCommander> I think the easiest way we could go forward with the review is a divide and conquer approach, and we simply assign packages to people.
<asac> a more compressed form would have been easier, but its fine i guess
<dmart> The filtered output has names like search-arm-swp.filt.gz
<dmart> This is far as it's easy to go automatically
<asac> ok
<asac> we could have had a per-package filter
<dmart> What about prioritisation?  Main comes before universe, but beyone that, I'm not sure.
<asac> [action] asac to discuss with dmart how to best tackle the list and assign packages to team members etc.
<NCommander> [action] asac to discuss with dmart how to best tackle the list and assign packages to team members etc.
<MootBot> ACTION received:  asac to discuss with dmart how to best tackle the list and assign packages to team members etc.
<ogra> dmart, on-cd more important than off-cd
<asac> dmart: i think we could check the conut or rdepends and go for those with more first
<ogra> s/cd/image/
<persia> I think we'd want to prioritise stuff that ends up in images beyond stuff that doesn'T.
<asac> but lets discuss that after meeting
<persia> Or in build-depends/depends ordering.
<dmart> OK, we can discuss that offline
<NCommander> [topic] Kernel Status (cooloney, ericm)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Kernel Status (cooloney, ericm)
<asac> so one word on the new standing items
<asac> i added a few and added nicks next to them ... to reflect who i think would be good at doing this
<asac> if you disagree let me know ... if you think it makes no sense, let me know either
<asac> also ... i added it this, week, so if you dont have anything this time its fine
<cooloney> right, asac i added fsl-imx51 already
 * ericm_ has just finished updated the kernel status on wiki
<persia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2010/20100112/FSLKernelBackport talks about the results of the backporting discussion
<asac> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2010/20100112/FSLKernelBackport
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2010/20100112/FSLKernelBackport
<cooloney>  2.6.31 Freescale BSP patches based kernel source was uploaded on Jan 11. Kernel packages cross compiled was tested on ogra and cooloney hardware. Freescale updated final BSP is just released. I will try to review the new kernel patches and try to apply them for testing.
<asac> that sounds good
<ogra> dist upgrade on my babbage board is still running, i should be able to test the in-archive soon kernel after the meeting
<ericm_> Marvell's patchset based on v2.6.32.2 has been rebased again on top of lucid, config files sorted out, and building is OK. There are several issues though (not specifically related to this patchset) including: unexpected segfaults and X desktop freezing, still investigating the root cause with Marvell, and this is holding the patches from being uploaded atm.
<ogra> * the in-archive kernel soon
<asac> ericm_: do we have bugs for those issues?
<ericm_> asac, yes
<asac> would be great to have those in that status info
<asac> ;)
<ericm_> asac, ok
<ogra> please make sure to have ubuntu-armel subscribed to such bugs
<asac> right
<ogra> that way the team gets them automatically
<asac> so cooloney and ericm_ and everyone: ensure that you subscribe ubuntu-armel and add the armel tag
<asac> ;)
<asac> even if the package is armel only
<ericm_> bug 504880 and bug 505772
<asac> its easier for us to pull a list of all issues
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 504880 in linux-mvl-dove "[dove] possibility of thumb2 instructions invalidly being handled" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/504880
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 505772 in linux-mvl-dove "system freezes sometimes after X is up for a while" [Critical,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/505772
<asac> also ensure that bad bugs are milestoned and targetted for lucid (aka on release team radar)
<asac> ericm_: thanks
<asac> so..
<asac> atm dove doesnt work at all?
<asac> or is that just random frequen crashes?
<NCommander> asac, it works, but its extremely unhappy.
<ericm_> asac, I'll say - doesn't work at all
<ericm_> not able to install even
<asac> ok targetted both bugs for lucid
<ericm_> interestingly, this doesn't happen on karmic or even lucid-alpha-1
<asac> hmm.
<asac> so its a regression in kernel?
<ericm_> and this happen as well with karmic kernel, so there are some new issues indeed we never found
<asac> do we have .32 on dove already?
<ericm_> I'd say - it's not a regression
<ogra> doesnt sound like kernel at all
<ericm_> asac, I've already rebased .32 on dove
<ogra> uploaded ?
<ogra> i.e. is it in any image atm ?
<ericm_> ogra, not yet - apw said it's not suitable
<NCommander> ericm_, there are known issues with thumb2 mode with the karmic kernel according to Marvell; we fixed the thumb2 quirk which helped with the stability, but still didn't solve it
<asac> thats good.
<ericm_> I guess we need to root cause those issues before an upload is made
<asac> i mean: that its not suitable -> its not uploaded :-
<ogra> ericm_, right, so the issues we see wrt X etc are unlikely to come from the kernel
<asac> P
<ericm_> ogra, I can run in console quite happily
<ogra> right
<NCommander> ericm_, try compiling stuff at the console
<ericm_> ogra, it indeed looks to be something related to X
<ogra> but X fails even with the karmic kernel
<NCommander> ericm_, once theboard gets unde rload, you run into segfaults
<ericm_> NCommander, ok - will do
<asac> ogra: we had kernel fixes for instructions before
<ericm_> ogra, exactly
<asac> ericm_: what crashes are you getting? segfaults or sigill?
<NCommander> also
<NCommander> X works here
<NCommander> asac, combination of both
<ogra> asac, i know, but kernel wouldnt be the first ting i'd look
<ericm_> asac, I guess as NCommander suggested - that single fix doesn't solve all the potential issue
<ericm_> seems to me
<asac> ogra: sure. we have the thumb list by dmart ;)
<ogra> right :)
<asac> or compiler
<asac> version
<NCommander> dmart, is there some sorta thumb test kit that runs through all the instructions that we could run on dove?
<ogra> most likely compiler/binutils
<ericm_> NCommander, would be good if you could test the .32 kernel your side
<asac> i dont see any debug info on the X crashes to attached
<NCommander> ericm_, I did
<asac> can we file a bug against X for that for now?
<dmart> NCommander: I don't know. I can enquire
<NCommander> ericm_, no improvement
<ericm_> asac, it just freezes - so no crash report
<plars> it's more like a full system hang, not just X crashing
<ogra> no ssh ?
<NCommander> dmart, thanks. If such a beast exists, it might help us find the problem
<asac> ericm_: maybe you can still log in or use console and get a dump?
<NCommander> asac, when it hangs, the board counter stops, or it goes completely non-responsive
<dmart> NCommander: I'll enquire at my end and see if something is available.
<asac> plars: ^
<NCommander> dmart, thanks :-).
<ericm_> asac, no - the debug hex led even stops counting
<GrueMaster> ogra: ssh isn't on the live image, and no it doesn't work even if added.
<ogra> GrueMaster, thanks :)
<ericm_> asac, so I'm trying to find some doc to see if that hex led is a software watchdog something
<ericm_> NCommander, do you have the detailed docs like schematics and developer manuals?
<NCommander> ericm_, the counter is driven by software
<NCommander> ericm_, we do have them, I'll send you a message
<ericm_> NCommander, cool
<ericm_> NCommander, so it could the kernel just locks up - yet not able to see anything from the serial console
<asac> do X apps work fine if you run them through ssh (e.g. without X server running)?
<NCommander> asac, X for me works.
<ericm_> asac, I'll try that on my side
<NCommander> asac, but its just a matter of time before the board hangs
<ericm_> one other thing I noticed is gnome-panel seems to respawn again and again
<asac> right. try without X and see if that goes away
<asac> then we hvae only xserver and kernel left most likely
<GrueMaster> Yesterday's live image starts X, but hangs shortly after rendering the desktop and before the panel fully loads.
<asac> ericm_: that indicates a crash. we should be able to get a backtrace on that then
<ericm_> GrueMaster, is that on dove?
<GrueMaster> yes
<asac> btw, is apport enabled?
<GrueMaster> Just booted it.
<persia> As much as it's nice to go through individual issues, aren't we drifting from topic a bit?  I'd expect a lot of this could be covered in #ubuntu-arm (as it seems arm-specific)
<ogra> define "yesterdays image" :)
<ericm_> asac, ok - just have no idea where to find the log of those gtk/gdk messages
<ogra> there were no builds since the 8th
<ericm_> asac, I guess so - yet not able to see the apport icon on the taskbar
<GrueMaster> 20100111 daily.
<asac> persia: i agree somewhat, though without having a way forward its bad to stop the topic
<GrueMaster> Ok.
<asac> anyway
<ogra> thats actually 20100108
<plars> GrueMaster: alternate maybe? live images haven't been rebuilt
<asac> lets move that offline after meeting
<ericm_> asac, I mean - apport doesn't seem to find anything wrong from it's last run
<NCommander> [action eric, NCommander, GrueMaster to work on dove kernel debugging
<NCommander> [action] ericm, NCommander, GrueMaster to work on dove kernel debugging
<MootBot> ACTION received:  ericm, NCommander, GrueMaster to work on dove kernel debugging
<NCommander> [topic] QA Status (GrueMaster, plars)
<MootBot> New Topic:  QA Status (GrueMaster, plars)
<plars> the bringup testing blueprint is, for all practical purposes, done, plan to start running through that and posting results asap
<asac> (GrueMaster: plars: anything important? i dont expect you to have a formal report prepared for this week )
<plars> but might be lagged slightly by systems being tied up with alpha testing this week
<GrueMaster> Nothing new to report as of yet.  QA on dove is stalled due to hanging images.
<asac> plars: great news. can we set that to implemented? ;)
<plars> ...and lack of new images
<plars> any ETA on that?
<plars> asac: there is one WI set for a3, which we discussed
<plars> just to gather more arm-specific info if possible
<asac> right. but thats after implemented
<asac> there are a few more stages ;)
<asac> or waits deployment maybe
<asac> anyway, i will go through specs anyway, so dont bother
<plars> asac: sure then
<NCommander> [topic] ARM Application status (JamieBennett, dyfet)
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM Application status (JamieBennett, dyfet)
<JamieBennett> Umm, not looked at ARM specific's this week
<asac> i think nothing to report on this this week
<JamieBennett> asac: what were you expecting from this item?
<asac> lets move on ... we can check that after the meeting
<ogra> there is still a good bunch of stuff on the ftbfs list
<JamieBennett> noting that you FTBFS and plars/Gruemaster to report bugs too?
<NCommander> [topic] ARM Porting/FTBFS status (NCommander, dyfet)
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM Porting/FTBFS status (NCommander, dyfet)
<NCommander> Bunch of FTBFS's fixed
<NCommander> libtool && ocmal being the hilights here
<NCommander> KDE's broken again
<asac> yeah. good progress so far (but new stuff is tickling in)
<asac> NCommander: did you go through the list of failures and gave back those that failed because of libtool?
<ogra> gd2 and gphoto look bad
<ogra> lv4l too
<asac> ogra: one of those is libtool iirc
<ogra> postgres ...
<ogra> meh and plymouth
<NCommander> asac, not all of them. just the obvious ones.
<NCommander> asac, i didn't spend as much on the failure list as I would have liked. Friday was hetic
<asac> ogra: postgres is fix committed
<ogra> plymounth is seeded since yesterday
<asac> pitti hasnt uploaded my fix yet
<ogra> someone should look at it
<asac> i can go through the ftbfs again and assign bugs
<asac> in the long run i would hope that dyfet and NCommander would do that regularly
<asac> but for now i am fine to do that
<ogra> why, leave it to them :)
<ogra> they are grown up guys :)
<NCommander> [topic] ARM Image Status (ogra, persia)
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM Image Status (ogra, persia)
 * NCommander thinks he should be on this one
<ogra> clemetine has her monthlies ...
 * persia was so excited by ogra's return from holiday that no image status was checked all week.  Next week something may be reported
<ogra> but an image build is running as we speak
<StevenK> Surely there has to be a better way to state that.
<ogra> heh
<ogra> StevenK, she was misbehaving and angry
<asac> good. for now its top prio to get A2 images going
<NCommander> StevenK, surely, but I do admit ogra has a way with words.
<ogra> and died directly after rebooting
<ogra> this time the machine stayed up ... and i fired off a build
<ogra> with luck we'll have images in 2-3h
<asac> ok i optimistically take this as A2 images are on track
<ogra> up to the 8th at least imx51 looks good
<NCommander> [topic] Any Other Business
<asac> ooo failed to build
<MootBot> New Topic:  Any Other Business
<ogra> freeze is in place so everything should be in sync atm
<NCommander> asac, *wince*, not again.
<asac> so we might need some slangasek help on that (i think he already did that)
<ogra> oo.o failes on all but x86 amd64
<asac> someone can take the action to fix our seeds so they dont block on armel?
<ogra> asac, i'll care for it if it gets in our way
<asac> good
<asac> NCommander: ^^ action please
<NCommander> [action] ogra to change seeds to route around OOo
<MootBot> ACTION received:  ogra to change seeds to route around OOo
<ogra> [action] ogra to care for seed changes to get oo.o off the image
 * NCommander was tempted to say braindamage instead ...
<persia> NO need to change the seeds, just reupload the -meta.  germinate will automatically do the right thing per-arch.
<NCommander> persia, it won't
<ogra> persia, nope
<NCommander> persia, the arch all packages cause issues.
 * NCommander remembers when this happened in karmic
<ogra> persia, tranbslations are a beast wrt oo.o
<persia> Ah.  That's probably a bug :)
<cooloney> ogra: one quick question, what version GCC we are using for build imx51?
 * NCommander sighs
<asac> current gcc 4.4
<ogra> cooloney, the one in the archive :)
<asac> i think its 4.4.2
<NCommander> Why the hell do people upload massive packages hours before A2 freeze
<cooloney> ogra: i just found fsl kernel patch revert the kernel compiling flag to 4.1.2
<persia> NCommander: To avoid uploading them after the freeze?
<ScottK> NCommander: Which?
<StevenK> What ScottK said
<asac> NCommander: ooo was explicitly requested by slangasek because the isos were oversized
<NCommander> persia, ScottK, OOo
<cooloney> asac: ogra thanks, will talk with freescale guys later
<persia> NCommander: Also:
<persia> !ohmy
<ubottu> Please remember that all Ubuntu IRC channels share the same attitude of providing friendly and polite interaction with all users of all ages and cultures. Basically, this means no foul language and no abuse towards others.
<ogra> cooloney, 4.1 isnt in ubuntu anymore i think
<NCommander> asac, ok, fair enough
<StevenK> gcc-4.1 does still exist in Lucid
<NCommander> ogra, its still in universe
<asac> is "why the hell" really offensive ;)
<asac> ?
<asac> hehe
<StevenK>    gcc-4.1 | 4.1.2-27ubuntu1 | lucid/universe | source, amd64, i386
<ogra> ah, universe
<ogra> no option anyway :)
<persia> asac: At least it hits the highlight filters.
<ScottK> NCommander: The real problem was breaking mesa on Friday and leaving it broken for 72 hours
<ScottK> asac: Depends on context, but it can be.
 * StevenK is *still* grumbling about that
<ogra> yeah, 3D sucks
<persia> No, breaking stuff and disappearing for the weekend sucks
<NCommander> ScottK, ow.
<ogra> i thought we had a rule for that
<asac> ScottK: whats the status on mesa? is that now fixed?
<ScottK> It's fixed
<cooloney> ogra: my cross compile gcc is 4.3.3
<ScottK> But that's why KDE and OOo are behind
<ScottK> KDE 4.3.90 was uploaded before it was broken even
<asac> ok. i agree that friday night uploads are not sensible ... especially towards community that spend their weekend time and are blocked
<ogra> cooloney, yeah, the kernel package needs to use whatever is the default in the archive though
<ogra> cooloney, for testing codesourcery is usually fine
<asac> ScottK: so is there anything that needs to get done for KDE wrt a2 and armel?
<ogra> asac, a time machine ?
<asac> haha
<ScottK> asac: Nope.  It looks like everything is building.
<asac> ok so it just needs to get build
<NCommander> ogra, I'd disagree. The archive toolchain should be used in all cases because CodeSourcery may have patches that change or fix bugs that aren't in mainline.
<asac> perfect
<asac> seems all 7 builders for armel are active
<ScottK> We don't have any A2 milestones around armel, so we'll try to stay out of your way
<asac> and queue is empty
<ogra> NCommander, for a quick test CodeSourcery is really ok
<NCommander> ogra, fair enough.
<cooloney> ogra: understand, i will let freescale guys know that
<ScottK> asac: Once kdebase-workspace publishes the queue will fill again.
<asac> cooloney: what is this about?
<asac> (seems i missed something in scrollback)
<asac> ScottK: yeah. ok. thanks
<asac> ok. more AOB?
<asac> otherwise we have a perfect 1h ;)
<NCommander> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 08:00.
<NCommander> wooh
<asac> thanks all
<ogra> asac, seems tehre is a patch in the FSL source that enforces gcc 4.1
<cooloney> asac: i am applying the latest fsl bsp kernel patches which is just released
 * NCommander drags himself back to bed for a bit
<cooloney> asac: but found that a patch force us to use old gcc 4.1.2
<ogra> but lets carry that over to #ubuntu-arm
<asac> ouch. yes, thats not acceptable
<asac> right
<cooloney> asac: so i built failed with my 4.3.3 cross compiler
<asac> cooloney: at best use 4.4 even ;)
<cooloney> asac: yeah, i will email freescale about that, and let you and ogra in the email loop
<asac> thanks!
<ericm_> asac, do we have a 4.4 cross compiler ready on x86
<ericm_> asac, so we save our trouble to upload
<cooloney> asac: yeah, right, i am just browsing the codesourcery website for that
<cooloney> ericm_: do you know that?
 * persia points to parallel discussion in #ubuntu-arm
<ericm_> cooloney, none I know
<asac> lets move to -arm
<kees> \o
<cjwatson> hello
<cjwatson> Keybuk not on IRC; I've pinged pitti and sabdfl
<cjwatson> mdz: TB meeting in 6?
<mdz> cjwatson: yep
<kees> ScottK: are you around for tech board meeting ?
<ScottK> kees: Just heading out the door for $WORK meetings.  I don't have anything useful to report on the KDE or MOTU stuff anyway.
<kees> ScottK: okay, noted. thanks!
 * cjwatson grabs a quick coffee
<cjwatson> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 09:01. The chair is cjwatson.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<cjwatson> still looking for pitti; cvd is looking for sabdfl; Keybuk is offline
<cjwatson> phoning Keybuk
<cjwatson> no reply
<cjwatson> OK, we're barely quorate I suppose.  Let's proceed
<cjwatson> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda
<cjwatson> [TOPIC] Action review
<MootBot> New Topic:  Action review
<cjwatson> [LINK] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-announce/2009-December/000658.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-announce/2009-December/000658.html
<cjwatson> mdz to fix language wrt cmdline meaning in Unit policy
<mdz> cjwatson: have looked all around for Mark; I think we should start without him
<mdz> cjwatson: that action was obsoleted during the meeting when I noted it had already been fixed
<cjwatson> it was in the minutes.  ack.
<cjwatson> kees to present Units policy to Debian TC via bdale
<kees> I emailed bdale today
<cjwatson> ok, keep us informed
<kees> indeed
<cjwatson> cjwatson to document meanings of archive vs. ports, cdimage vs. releases, etc.
<cjwatson> done today on UbuntuDevelopment/PackageArchive, although (as per mail) I could do with a statement of which releases lpia was officially supported for
<cjwatson> but otherwise this action is done
<cjwatson> cjwatson to add a bit more intro to UbuntuDevelopment/TeamDelegation, and link it from appropriate places
<cjwatson> done
<cjwatson> cjwatson to follow up with kubuntu-dev and mythbuntu-dev to get ubuntu-core-dev added
<cjwatson> kubuntu-dev done; I asked superm1 about the mythbuntu-dev bit this morning but haven't got a response yet, so will carry that part over to make sure this gets done
<cjwatson> ScottK to update [Kubuntu/UpdatesPolicy] based on kubuntu upstream feedback
<kees> IIUC, I don't think anything meaningful has come from upstream on that yet
<cjwatson> ScottK said he wouldn't be here, but the wiki page has not been changed
<cjwatson> will carry over
<cjwatson> kees to follow up with ScottK on Kubuntu/UpdatesPolicy updates
<kees> done
<cjwatson> oh, was that not dependent on the upstream feedback?
<kees> right, it was to ping scottk
<cjwatson> ok
<cjwatson> kees to clean up further and re-present [execute permission policy] at next meeting
<kees> also done
<Riddell> the upstream status is that this needs approving http://techbase.kde.org/Policies/Minor_Point_Release_Policy/Draft
<kees> well, updated, haven't represented, obviously.  :)
<Riddell> which I'll work on
<cjwatson> Riddell: ah, thanks, perhaps that could be linked from the wiki?
<cjwatson> sabdfl to propose to CC that the TB is a CC delegate, and clarify his role
<cjwatson> anyone know if this happened?
<cjwatson> sabdfl to update bug with status and discussion
<cjwatson> Mark updated the bug just after the last meeting
<mdz> cjwatson: no, I don't think anything has happened on the CC front (from watching their meeting agenda)
<cjwatson> thanks, I'll carry that over then
<mdz> cjwatson: mark just arrived back at his desk
 * cjwatson waits ...
<sabdfl> hello all
<kees> heya
<cjwatson> hi Mark
<cjwatson> just going through actions from the last meeting, one from you
<cjwatson> sabdfl to propose to CC that the TB is a CC delegate, and clarify his role
<sabdfl> not done - I was on holiday during the last CC meeting
<cjwatson> ok, will carry over then
<sabdfl> thanks
<cjwatson> [TOPIC] Archive reorganisation (ColinWatson)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Archive reorganisation (ColinWatson)
<cjwatson> most of the activity here was represented in action items, otherwise I've been on holiday / buried in deathmarch project
<cjwatson> anything to raise?
 * cjwatson times out
<cjwatson> [TOPIC] https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/UpdatesPolicy
<MootBot> New Topic:  https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/UpdatesPolicy
<cjwatson> I assume that this is blocked on ScottK's action item?
<Riddell> didn't this just get covered?
<Riddell> it's waiting on upstream approving http://techbase.kde.org/Policies/Minor_Point_Release_Policy/Draft
<cjwatson> indeed, it was just listed separately on the agenda
<cjwatson> ok, continuing
<cjwatson> [TOPIC] Units policy
<MootBot> New Topic:  Units policy
<cjwatson> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UnitsPolicy
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UnitsPolicy
<cjwatson> what remains here?
<mdz> waiting to hear back from bdale I guess
<cjwatson> do we now consider the policy final from an Ubuntu pov?
<kees> anything we can move forward on while waiting to see what Debian thinks?
<cjwatson> if we consider it final, we can start clearing things up in Ubuntu?
<mdz> cjwatson: I'm happy with it
<mdz> kees: I think the notion was that we should take it to Debian first and give them the opportunity to take the lead, rather than going ahead and asking them to follow
<mdz> particularly if they want to tweak it
<sabdfl> do we have a way to tag the patches we send to Debian as say ubuntu and units-policy ?
<mdz> yes
<cjwatson> sabdfl: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Debian/Usertagging
<cjwatson> usertags are free text and controlled by convention
<sabdfl> can we get a quick poll on whether folks think it better to (a) start, submit tagged patches, or (b) wait for consensus on a final Debian-and-Ubuntu spec?
<sabdfl> i'd be +1 on starting
<cjwatson> I think I prefer waiting for at least feedback if not necessarily consensus
<persia> To avoid a need for logs of documentation bugs, it may be easier to start by submitting patches, but not committing them to Ubuntu.
<mdz> I'm for (b).  this is fundamentally cosmetic; the benefit may not offset the cost of carrying another stack of patches
<persia> s/logs/lots/
<cjwatson> consensus is sometimes a big ask, but since we've asked for feedback it would be courteous to wait for it I think
<mdz> agreed
<cjwatson> seems to be a light preference for waiting, let's check back next time to see how the discussion with the TC is going
<cjwatson> [TOPIC] When is it a good idea to fail out of a maintainer script? (Matt Zimmerman)
<MootBot> New Topic:  When is it a good idea to fail out of a maintainer script? (Matt Zimmerman)
<mdz> we started this discussion at a previous meeting
<mdz> but I think we cut it short due to lack of time
<cjwatson> this was a bit stalled last time
<cjwatson> 15:50 <mdz> let's try to wrap this up
<cjwatson> 15:50 <mdz> should we take some action or no?
<cjwatson> 15:50 <mdz> options:
<cjwatson> 15:50 <mdz> - open a dialogue with the Debian TC
<cjwatson> 15:51 <mdz> - somebody go off and give it a good long think and come up with a proposal
<cjwatson> 15:51 <mdz> - start a discussion thread on a mailing list
<cjwatson> 15:51 <bdale> any discussion with the Debian TC will proceed better if it starts with a straw-man proposal
<cjwatson> 15:51 <bdale> as the TC is not in the habit of initiating policy from whole cloth
<cjwatson> 15:52 <mdz> ok, I'm not hearing any strong views so I'll just leave it alone for the moment, we can revisit at the next meeting if we have time
<mdz> I'd like for someone to second the idea before I go any further with it
<mdz> if no one else feels there is a problem worth solving, I think I'll drop it
<cjwatson> I think that it is worth having a more specific and consistent approach to this, although I am not yet convinced that there is a single policy applicable to all packages.  However, I feel it is in the "somebody needs to give it a good long think" category and I don't think we're getting very far by considering it at the TB level at present?
<mdz> OK
<kees> from the earlier discussion it sounded mostly like a case-by-case situation.  general guidelines would be good, though.
<cjwatson> We don't really seem to have well-thought-out alternatives to decide between, for example
<cjwatson> pitti did say last time round that he'd had to spend time on phone support due to fallout from this kind of problem
<mdz> agreed, let's shelve it for the moment
<sabdfl> this is all way off my radar screen, so don't wait for me to chip in
<mdz> if I get more time/motivation to work up some options, I'll put it to the mailing list
<cjwatson> OK
<cjwatson> #
<cjwatson> Execute Permission Policy (KeesCook)
<cjwatson> oops
<cjwatson> [TOPIC] Execute Permission Policy (KeesCook)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Execute Permission Policy (KeesCook)
<cjwatson> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Policies#Execute-Permission%20Bit%20Required
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Policies#Execute-Permission%20Bit%20Required
<kees> so, it's ready... I'd like to know what's missing.
<kees> we seemed close to agreeing on it before.
<cjwatson> 15:44 <kees>     * The current policy will not handle all potential cases, such as OO.o macros or application cases which wer are unaware of
<kees> sounded like the policy was ok, but the implementation needed some love.
<cjwatson> 15:44 <kees>     * Colin: we should point out an alternative approach instead of just saying "No"
<pitti> hi; sorry, my X is terminally broken, currently trying to get a sensible system again
<cjwatson> 15:44 <kees>     * current impact: kill GNOME desktop "do you want to run it anyway?" question, remove a few MIME handlers
<cjwatson> 15:45 <kees> so, it needs something for the alternative approach.  wording for macros was handled.
<cjwatson> I get the feeling we had a bit of axiom conflict here
<kees> cjwatson: ah, was missing macro wording?  that's just an exception.
<cjwatson> "wording for macros was handled".  I overpasted
<mdz> kees: is the "extended attributes" bit new? I didn't notice that before
<mdz> and it seems complex
<cjwatson> err except that this does not appear to be reflected in the current wiki page?
<kees> mdz: that's been there since the beginning.  it's a "should"
<kees> cjwatson: agreed. not sure where it went. one sec
<mdz> kees: does anything we currently ship comply with that?
<sabdfl> what's the upgrade story with this?
<cjwatson> my impression from last time round was that kees felt that we should *not* point out an alternative approach
<cjwatson> shout if I'm wrong
<sabdfl> i.e. how do people's existing handler sets interact with this?
<kees> mdz: nothing currently implements it, but it was an idea (from Keybuk?) that we could operate in the same way OSX does.
<mdz> kees: I think it's a useful idea, but that we should separate "idea" from "policy"
<kees> so, I figured I would mention it in the hopes of encouraging such things
<kees> mdz: that's why I had it as "should".  what would be better?
<cjwatson> kees: it may be that "give the option of looking for trusted software instead" is sufficient as an alternative approach
<mdz> kees: anyone who set out to implement it would end up inventing a system for it, and I don't think we want that
<kees> cjwatson: yes, that's my opinion.
<mdz> if there were some existent facility they could use, I would be fine encouraging use of that
<kees> mdz: should I leave it out, or move it elsewhere?
<cjwatson> people are going to google anyway if they can't do what they want, and we can't prevent that; all we can do is maximally encourage safe behaviour
<kees> cjwatson: agreed
<cjwatson> pitti: ^- do you know the answer to sabdfl's handler upgrade question above
<cjwatson> ?
<mdz> kees: I'd like to either take it out, or move it into a separate section (future)
<kees> mdz: moved.
<mdz> otherwise I'm happy with it as it stands
<kees> sabdfl: you mean the mime handlers?
<sabdfl> kees: yes
<pitti> cjwatson, sabdfl: for custom installed .desktop files (mimetype handlers) it should just continue to work, but I don't think that this will actually be the case; usually people just have the system MIME handlers, which will be changed on upgrade
<kees> sabdfl: this would break non-installed software for certain invocations of java, wine, and .desktop files
<pitti> (I might have misunderstood the question, though)
<sabdfl> i'm asking if we've thought through the experience folks will have, who have accumulated cruft over time
<kees> i.e. software people are double-clicking out of their Desktop/ folder
<cjwatson> mm.  I must say I don't see the point of breaking stuff people have already installed.  If it's unsafe, they've already taken the hit
<cjwatson> (I realise this is just an emergent consequence rather than intentional breakage)
<mdz> cjwatson: I agree, though I don't see a way around it
<kees> but how can we distinguish?  the handler is the handler.
<mdz> other than making everything in their home dir executable, of course ;-)
<cjwatson> if the error message follows the "should" and links to explanatory text (esp. if it's local rather than on the web?) then it is perhaps less of an issue
<cjwatson> although translation argh
<cjwatson> update-manager could warn about non-executable .desktop files in users' Desktop/ folders
<cjwatson> it gets complicated with multi-user system
<cjwatson> s
<kees> the explanatory text was moved out of the dialog and into a page based on feedback from last time.
<cjwatson> I'd like to move forward on this somehow.  I think much of this is likely to be an improvement and that we should proceed earlier rather than later if we're looking at doing this for Lucid.  Perhaps we could go ahead and present this to the desktop team for detailed feedback, including requesting advice on awkward issues such as this?
<kees> we seem stuck once again.  I'd really like to move this forward.  I recognize it has some sub-optimal issues associated with it, but I think it's the "least bad".
<cjwatson> pitti: ^- how do you feel about that, with your desktop team techlead hat on?
<kees> can the tb ratify the policy as-is, since it does not define the "explanatory text" ?
<kees> I can re-weaken the "link to" to be "dialog should provide or link to explanatory text" ?
 * pitti reads scrollback; sorry, really not easy to follow sprint and meeting
<cjwatson> how about we vote to ratify it conditional on feedback from desktop team members?
<cjwatson> as in, ratify the spirit and let the desktop team tweak the letter
<kees> that's fine by me.
<cjwatson> [VOTE] ratify https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Policies#Execute-Permission%20Bit%20Required conditional on detailed feedback from desktop team
<MootBot> Please vote on:  ratify https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Policies#Execute-Permission%20Bit%20Required conditional on detailed feedback from desktop team.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<cjwatson> +1
<kees> +0 from me, as this was brought to the TB by me before I was on the TB.
<MootBot> +1 received from cjwatson. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<MootBot> Abstention received from kees. 1 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 1
<pitti> I agree that the upgrade issue is nasty, and I'm trying to think about a workaround (such as checking a timestamp or something)
<sabdfl> kees: when will we be able to kick the tires on this? i'd like to know how much room there will be for iteration if the first cut isn't very usable
<pitti> but since that problem won't ever solve itself, we need to do the cut at some point anyway
<sabdfl> i find it hard to judge that usability from the spec
<kees> sabdfl: I imagine a few weeks.  mostly I just have to remove mimehandlers.
<sabdfl> i'm +1 to getting going based on this draft, if I know we will have time to iterate it before lucid, or able to pull it entirely from lucid
<sabdfl> ok
<sabdfl> will you put some additional thought into the upgrade experience? 70% of lucid users will be upgrades
<kees> sure, though the number of those users that run custom .desktop files is likely to be very small.
<cjwatson> I'm cautious about usability being a trump card entirely in one direction here, as the usability of a compromised system is also pretty weak, and we know that this kind of thing is a good attack vector
<kees> pitti: timestamp seems like it could work for .desktop, but may result in some confusing results.  :)
<pitti> I'm +1 one on that, too; IMHO a consistent behaviour is better than some timestamp based stuff which will never reliably work anyway; and after all, a dist-upgrade does install a new OS version, which allows some incompatibilities IMHO
<cjwatson> I wish we had numbers on people using custom .desktop files, but we don'tt
<kees> though I don't like the idea of having a system's clock set wrong leaving you vulnerable.
<kees> looks like mootbot missed sabdfl and pitti's votes.
<pitti> is it really about .desktop files? I thought they'd need to be +x for ages already
<pitti> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from pitti. 2 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 2
<kees> pitti: the +x for desktop files is pretty recent, but not lucid-recent.  this is mostly about removing the "run anyway?" portion of that dialog.
<pitti> so we would only remove the "start anyway" button, not add something entirely new
<pitti> kees: right
<pitti> therefore it won't come as a total surprise anyway
<kees> that's my thinking, yes.
<kees> and remove the java and wine handlers.
<cjwatson> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 2 for, 0 against. 1 abstained. Total: 2
<pitti> I thought this was at least since hardy or intrepid
<cjwatson> noting the conditional +1 from sabdfl
<kees> ok, thanks!
<cjwatson> kees: please go ahead and bring this up formally with the desktop team, noting the need for time to iterate/pull
<kees> cjwatson: via ubuntu-devel?
<cjwatson> that or ubuntu-desktop, whichever is appropriate
<kees> ok
<cjwatson> [TOPIC] Check up on community bugs (standing item)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Check up on community bugs (standing item)
<pitti> kees: alternatively, desktop team meeting is in 40 mins
<cjwatson> just the one about sabdfl's expiration date, which was addressed in action items
<cjwatson> [TOPIC] AOB
<MootBot> New Topic:  AOB
<kees> pitti: I'll start with email.  no need to derail another IRC meeting.  ;)
<cjwatson> anything anyone wants to raise?  You have ~8 minutes.
<sabdfl> nothing from me, other than to wish everyone a great 2010
<pitti> sabdfl: and to you!
<kees> yeah, you too!  happy new year, tech board.  :)
<cjwatson> sometime this year I will probably get over typing 200^H10
<cjwatson> [TOPIC] Select a chair for the next meeting
<MootBot> New Topic:  Select a chair for the next meeting
<cjwatson> not it
 * kees checks calendar
<cjwatson> kees was last, mdz before that
<cjwatson> how about Keybuk as a penalty for not showing up?
<kees> okidoky
<cjwatson> done. :)
<cjwatson> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 09:54.
<cjwatson> thanks all!
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-01-13
<HulkHogan> !ops
<ubottu> Help! Seveas, Hobbsee, LjL, ompaulafk, Keybuk, mdz, sabdfl, janimo, ogra, mdke, dholbach, or jono
<zul> morn'
<nijaba> aftern'
<ivoks> hello
<jiboumans> 'lo
<ttx> o/
<jiboumans> afternoon folks
<jiboumans> time to get this thing rolling
<soren> o/
<jiboumans> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 08:00. The chair is jiboumans.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<jiboumans> today's scribe is smoser
<ttx> mathiaz, smoser: around ?
<sommer> o//
<mathiaz>  /o\
<smoser> hi
<jiboumans> [TOPIC] last weeks action points
<MootBot> New Topic:  last weeks action points
<jiboumans> i'll take the ones that belong to a blueprint when we discuss those
<jiboumans> ACTION: SorenHansen to solicit packages that lend them selves well to nightly builds
<jiboumans> soren: ^
<soren> jiboumans: Hm... I don't remember /how/ I did it, but I did get some feedback.
<soren> :)
<jiboumans> soren++
<jiboumans> please shae :)
<jiboumans> *share
<soren> The only extra ones I got were:
<soren> python2.6 and atlas.
<soren> I'll get those added to the nighly builds shortly.
<soren> Like now
<jiboumans> you agree there's mileage in those?
<soren> If they run a test suite during build, I don't see any harm in detecting if they start failing.
<jiboumans> fair enough
<soren> I still haven't gotten round to the reporting part of things.
<soren> I get an e-mail when stuff fails to build, but that's about as far as it gets.
<jiboumans> that's the interesting bit though :)
<soren> Quite :)
<jiboumans> you still have a bit of time to wrap that up though
<jiboumans> please let us know how you progress ;)
<jiboumans> moving on
<soren> mathiaz suggested using a team ppa and interested parties can join the team and thus get the build failure e-mails as well.
<soren> I'll set that up.
<jiboumans> soren: good step. i'd also love to see an overview/bugs coming out of that (maybe a nice to have though)
<soren> jiboumans: Noted.
<jiboumans> ACTION: ScottMoser to investigate publishing new AMIs
<jiboumans> smoser: ^
<smoser> no movement on that.  eric tested the us-west-1 nightly some and his results were favorable.
<jiboumans> ok, push that action to next meeting then
<jiboumans> alpha2's more important at this point
<smoser> but i've not done anything myself. long term, this falls into RefreshPolicy and QA and such are involved.
<jiboumans> agreed
<jiboumans> we'll pick it up after this milestone
<jiboumans> the remainign action points are related to blueprints
<jiboumans> we'll get to those in the alpha3 section
<jiboumans> ttx: your turn for the alpha2 deliverables
<ttx> right
<jiboumans> [TOPIC] Alpha2 milestone (ttx)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Alpha2 milestone (ttx)
<ttx> So Alpha2 milestone will be released tomorrow
<ttx> There are a few work items still targeted to that milestone
<ttx> I want to make sure they are still on track, or we shoudl defer them
<ttx> mathiaz:
<ttx> hm
<ttx> jib: retrospective/Establish access to central hardware when available
<ttx> smoser: boothooks / cleanup and package new development
<jiboumans> ttx: got word from IS today. hardware is in but not setup yet. ETA early next week, so it won't be done for alpha2 milestone
<ttx> zul: Write MIR and update package for main requirement for ctdb
<ttx> jiboumans: ok, will defer
<zul> ttx: triaged waiting to hear back from lool
<jiboumans> ttx: making the blueprint change now
<ttx> zul: still hoping to complete by tomorrow :) ?
<zul> if i can find lool today
<smoser> loking
<ttx> mathiaz; you have two from aws-client-libs
<smoser> looking even
<mathiaz> ttx: well - they've been added today
<mathiaz> ttx: wasn't that supposed to be for alpha3?
<ttx> right, the spec isn't for alpha2 anyway
<smoser> i moved my "package stuff" to 'DONE' (as its in now).
<jiboumans> ttx: ACTION Mathiaz to send out AWS Client lib RFC (that's what that relates to)
<ttx> jiboumans: ok for me to move to alpha3, even if we want it very soon ?
<jiboumans> ttx: move which one?
<mathiaz> jiboumans: nijaba sent an email about it
<ttx> the aws ones
<nijaba> mathiaz: only for the part I was aksed to chekc: php
<mathiaz> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/server-lucid-aws-client-libraries
<jiboumans> i'd like the rfc email to go out ASAP
<jiboumans> mathiaz, ttx: ^
<mathiaz> jiboumans: ok
<ttx> ok, keeping them in, then
<ttx> mathiaz: sounds doable ?
<mathiaz> ttx: yes
<jiboumans> the decision can go to next meeting
<ttx> moving on to alpha2 bugs
<ttx> the most important one was in fact already fixed
<ttx> (the ec2-init one)
<ttx> just didn't autoclose on upload
 * jjohansen fades in (sorry I am late)
<ttx> that leaves the MIRs...
<ttx> And the samba one (bug 462169)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 462169 in samba "nmbd dies on startup when network interfaces are not up yet" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/462169
<ttx> zul: the pastedeploy MIR bug should be targeted for alpha3 now
<zul> i have to update the MIR ones
<zul> ttx: okies
<jiboumans> ttx: the samba one has added: "This bug was fixed in the package samba - 2:3.4.0-3ubuntu5.3"
<ttx> taht's the karmic SRU, we want it fixed in lucid as well
 * ttx doublechecks
<jiboumans> ttx: you're correct. lucid is set to 'in progress'
<zul> i can do that as well
<ttx> samba bug -> <slangasek> ttx: oh, I have that listed under foundations ;)  Yes, I'll have that fixed beginning of next week
<ttx> that is.. yesterday
<ttx> slangasek: defer to alpha3 ?
<zul> the proper fix is to have an upstart job imho
<ttx> last topic is ISO testing
<ttx> we ahve candidates in, please test them
 * soren is doing a bunch of that.
<ttx> i'll be doing the UEC ones
<soren> If anyone tries an LVM install on real hardware, please let me know the results.
<jiboumans> [NOTE] ISO testing candidates are in. please test them!
<ttx> and I hope to have time to do the UEC cloud images as well
<ttx> make sure the rest is covered
<ttx> afaict no respin is planned now
<ttx> unless something bad happens
<jiboumans> [ACTION] ttx coordinate ISO testing efforts
<MootBot> ACTION received:  ttx coordinate ISO testing efforts
<jiboumans> ttx: well volunteered, thanks
<ttx> yaya
<ttx> yay
<ttx> jiboumans: alpha2 done, you're on for alpha3
<jiboumans> [TOPIC] Alpha3 subcycle planning (jib)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Alpha3 subcycle planning (jib)
<jiboumans> We're trying to get our alpha3 roadmap in order by the end of the week
<jiboumans> as you know, we've only planned until alpha2 so far, and we're now filling in the remaining work for alpha3
<jiboumans> for that we're collecting feedback as we go. We've made a preliminary pass from the server team, which is reflected in launchpad: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/~jib/+specs?role=approver
<jiboumans> preliminary workitems can be seen here: http://macaroni.ubuntu.com/~pitti/workitems/canonical-server-lucid-alpha-3.html
<jiboumans> any feedback or opinions you have are welcome on the mailinglist :)
<jiboumans> i'd like to quickly focus on the community driven blueprints:
<jiboumans> [TOPIC] server-lucid-cluster-stack
<MootBot> New Topic:  server-lucid-cluster-stack
<jiboumans> ivoks: ^
<jiboumans> ACTION ivoks to update server-lucid-cluster-stack with lucid (and alpha3) goals
<ivoks> well, we have a good progress there
<ivoks> beta quality packages are there
<ivoks> blueprint was updated
<jiboumans> ivoks++
<ivoks> and we are in the testhing phase
<ivoks> testing
<jiboumans> saw your mails on the list; looks like very good stuff
 * ttx hugs his favorite croatian
<ivoks> :)
<jiboumans> ... i read that as crustacean...
<ivoks> so, this should be ready for alpha3
<nijaba> \o/
<jiboumans> ivoks: we're particularly interested in your experience of redhat cluster suite vs pacemaker & co
<jiboumans> ivoks: when do you think you could tell us a bit more about that?
<ivoks> jiboumans: atm pacemaker looks very very nice
<ivoks> well, we had a discussion about it at uds
<ivoks> pacemaker is only one part of future, yet unnamed, cluster stack
<ivoks> there's also cluster-glue, cluster-agents, etc...
<ivoks> basicaly, everybody is working on common cluster stack (all distros and some vendors)
<ivoks> will that kill rhcs... i doubt it, but it should be better at some point
<ivoks> problem with rhcs in ubuntu now is that very few people use it nad even less know how it works
<ivoks> pacemaker is much easier to setup
<jiboumans> ivoks: i think you're aware of the promotion/demotion discusion around redhat cluster, so I'm sure mathiaz and zul are very interested in the input you can provide there
<ttx> ivoks: could you explain what the different components do ?
<ivoks> i could copy paste :)
<ivoks> http://www.linux-ha.org/wiki/Cluster_Glue
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://www.linux-ha.org/wiki/Cluster_Glue
<ttx> "Glue is everything that is not the cluster messaging layer (Heartbeat), nor the cluster resource manager (Pacemaker), nor a Resource Agent. "
<ttx> makes sense
<ivoks> Cluster Glue is a set of libraries, tools and utilities suitable for the Heartbeat/Pacemaker cluster stack. In essence, Glue is everything that is not the cluster messaging layer (Heartbeat), nor the cluster resource manager (Pacemaker), nor a Resource Agent.
<ivoks> so, idea is that future rhcs and future (let's call it) pacemaker cluster
<ivoks> share common libraries and agents
<ttx> ivoks: that's future development, not part of your current spec iiuc
<ivoks> our spec is 'follow what's going on'
<ttx> that's not a spec, that's an interest
<ttx> :P
<ivoks> and if you ask me now what we should push for next 5 years in lucid, that would be pacemaker
<mathiaz> ivoks: will the pacemaker-based stack be feature equivalent to rhcs in the lucid timeframe?
<ivoks> hard to say cause they don't share the same philosophy
<ivoks> for example, rhcs belives in quorum disks, while pacemaker doesn't
<ivoks> there's also GFS2, which isn't yet supported in pacemaker
<soren> ivoks: What does it support instead?
<soren> ocfs?
<ivoks> but ocfs2 is
<soren> Ok.
<ivoks> i wouldn't mind demoting rhcs to universe, even though we don't get pacemaker in main
<jiboumans> ivoks: thanks for the summary. please share your ongoing experiences with us :)
<ivoks> sure
<jiboumans> [TOPIC] server-lucid-contextualization
<MootBot> New Topic:  server-lucid-contextualization
<jiboumans> stgraber: just to confirm you're in good shape for the alpha3 related parts
<jiboumans> stgraber appears idle. hopefully this will show up in his scrollback :)
<jiboumans> [TOPIC] server-lucid-asterisk-integration
<MootBot> New Topic:  server-lucid-asterisk-integration
<jiboumans> ACTION: jmdault to update server-lucid-asterisk-integration blueprint with alpha3 & post-alpha3 workitems and change syntax to match Pitti's workitems WorkItemsHowto
<jiboumans> Daviey, dyfet if you're around; just a quick check you're in good shape for alpha3
<stgraber> sorry, wasn't looking at IRC
<stgraber> jiboumans: I requested a sync for LXC this week, the new package is in Debian (for the userspace tool)
<jiboumans> stgraber: we've targeted this spec today for alpha3 as the work items affect feature freeze
<stgraber> jiboumans: I also contacted LXC upstream about a few small issues in current LXC and I now have a few good contacts with upstream
<dyfet> there is new dahdi packages ready
<jmdault> o/
<stgraber> jiboumans: yep, I expect to have the MIR written and approved by then (for the userspace tool)
<jiboumans> stgraber++ excellent, thanks for the update
<jiboumans> ok, asterisk once again :)
<jiboumans> ACTION: jmdault to update server-lucid-asterisk-integration blueprint with alpha3 & post-alpha3 workitems and change syntax to match Pitti's workitems WorkItemsHowto
<jiboumans> Daviey, dyfet if you're around; just a quick check you're in good shape for alp
<stgraber> jiboumans: I'm also waiting for libcap support in libvirt, I think it's either soren or jdstrand who have that bullet point assigned to them
<dyfet> I will defer to jmdault
<soren> Me, probably.
<jiboumans> stgraber: they do, it's targeted for alpha3 for soren
<jdstrand> my bullet is for the merge
<jdstrand> Debian is still fiddling with 0.7.5
<jmdault> dyfet: thx
<jdstrand> (plus I haven't had time to do it yet)
<jmdault> dyfet: we'll need lots of testing
<jiboumans> jmdault: it looks like all work items should be targeted for alpha3, except perhaps: Further testing pre-release: TODO
<jiboumans> jmdault: i'd appreciate it if you could update the blueprint to match the WorkItemsHowto as per the action point. would that be ok?
<jmdault> jiboumans: yes, I'm doing that today
<jiboumans> jmdault: excellent. could you also confirm you're confident for the alpha3 deliverables?
<jmdault> jiboumans: yes, very confident, all the dahdi build problems have been resolved
<jiboumans> jmdault++ dyfet++ daviey++
<jmdault> jiboumans: so  I'm 99% confident
<jiboumans> excellent. thanks all for your update
<jiboumans> next topic:
<jiboumans> [TOPIC] Alpha3 blueprints that request community feedback
<MootBot> New Topic:  Alpha3 blueprints that request community feedback
<jiboumans> ttx?
<jiboumans> [TOPIC] server-lucid-papercuts (ttx)
<MootBot> New Topic:  server-lucid-papercuts (ttx)
<ttx> yes, so I sent an email about that project to the ubuntu-server ml
<jiboumans> also: ACTION: ThierryCarrez to send background mail on papercuts project for next weeks discussion
<ttx> "The idea is to spend time during this less-featureful development cycle
<ttx> to fix server usability issues that make Ubuntu Server less
<ttx> sysadmin-friendly."
<ttx> This is a global effort, so I'd like to discuss part of the design during the alpha3 period
<ttx> get community's advice on it
<ttx> Today I want to discuss the nomination mechanism
<ttx> Two options were mentioned in the mail
<ttx> LP project approach:
<ttx> * Nominate by marking Also affects project
<ttx> * Accept by marking bug Confirmed for the project
<ttx> * Reject by marking bug Invalid for the project
<ttx> * Find bugs by looking at project bugs
<ttx> * Fix-release in both Ubuntu and project
<ttx> LP tag approach:
<ttx> * Nominate by tagging server-papercut-proposed
<ttx> * Accept by tagging server-papercut
<ttx> * Reject by marking server-papercut-refused
<ttx> * Find bugs by searching for tags
<ttx> * Fix-release in Ubuntu
<ttx> which one should we pursue ?
<ttx> I tend to prefer the tag approach, but we had someone in the ML preferring the project approach
<ttx> tag is more integrated
<jiboumans> ttx, do we have an answer to this: "I do not see anywhere (like I said, I may be missing out on a feature) the
<zul> project aproach
<jiboumans> ability to "subscribe" to tags."
<ttx> jiboumans: nothing already built in LP that I know of
<ttx> i.e. if you don't add some home-made glue
<ttx> I agree that increases the barrier of entry
<ttx> so Lp project, everyone agrees ?
<jiboumans> ttx: my vote is on transparency. if all things are not equal i vote project
<zul> i think the project aproach increases visibility
<ttx> the price to pay is /some/ redundancy
<ttx> I'm surprised mathiaz doesn't vote for tag :)
<mathiaz> ttx: works for me
<ttx> ok, then project it is
<ttx> jiboumans: action me on creating that one
<jiboumans> [ACTION] ttx to create project approach for papercuts
<MootBot> ACTION received:  ttx to create project approach for papercuts
<erichammond> "subscribe to tag" would also be very helpful for the ec2-images tag.  When that got switched from a project to a tag, I sort of lost visibility.
<jiboumans> ttx: what's the next step for papercuts?
<ttx> discuss acceptance criteria, project publicity plan
<ttx> that's for next week
<ttx> I'll post a followup on the ML
<ttx> action me on that as well
<jiboumans> [ACTION] ttx for papercuts: discuss acceptance criteria, project publicity plan
<MootBot> ACTION received:  ttx for papercuts: discuss acceptance criteria, project publicity plan
<jiboumans> well volunteered
<jiboumans> [TOPIC] server-lucid-apport-hooks (ttx)
<MootBot> New Topic:  server-lucid-apport-hooks (ttx)
<ttx> This is also a shared effort, we want to add apport hooks to as many packages as we can
<ttx> and follow up on the meeting on progress regularly
<ttx> zul will lead that effort
<zul> yay!
<ttx> anyone is interested in participating in this ?
<jiboumans> [ACTION] Mathiaz to publish papercuts & apport efforts in our blog/community channels
<MootBot> ACTION received:  Mathiaz to publish papercuts & apport efforts in our blog/community channels
<ttx> zul: you should come up with a open-ended list of candidates based on the number of bugs
<ttx> and we'll have a point at next week meeting about it
<ttx> see if there are any takers
<zul> ttx: we did that in the spec
<ttx> jiboumans: anything else on that subject ?
<ttx> zul: I think there should be more candidates
<jiboumans> ttx: don't think so. right now it's about awareness and exposure
<zul> ttx: ok
<jiboumans> [TOPIC] Assigned and to-be-assigned bugs: http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/team-assigned/canonical-server-assigned-bug-tasks.html (ttx)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Assigned and to-be-assigned bugs: http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/team-assigned/canonical-server-assigned-bug-tasks.html (ttx)
<ttx> hah
<ttx> checking the list
<ttx> woo groovy new look
<ttx> nothing assigned to team, still too much in kirkland and zulcss list
<ttx> anything blocking someone to report ?
<ttx> this list isn't useful until it's trimmed down
<zul> im actually going to find some time this week to do some of it
<jiboumans> ttx: let's pick this up internally and do a triage round once alpha2 is out the door
<ttx> jiboumans: action zul/kirkland in trimming their list ?
<ttx> ok
<ttx> next
<jiboumans> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (soren)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (soren)
<soren> o/
<soren> So, this is alpha week.
<ttx> alpha2, even
<soren> We need all the help we can get to get through the ever growing list of ISO test cases.
<soren> ttx: The best sort of alpha!
<jiboumans> [ACTION] mathias to publish request for iso testing in our regular blog/community channels
<MootBot> ACTION received:  mathias to publish request for iso testing in our regular blog/community channels
<soren> Some of them are already covered, but please take a few hours out of your schedule to do some of the ones that noone apparantly wants to do :)
<mathiaz> http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/ <- list of ISO test cases
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/ <- list of ISO test cases
<soren> I've noticed that many of the test cases are slightly outdated.
<soren> The list of steps are not complete, so we need to get them to actually correspond to the steps you need to take during an install.
<ttx> soren: i've updated some UEC ones recently
<ttx> soren: to reflect current state/names
<soren> If people could do that while they go through the installs, that would be very helpful.
<jiboumans> ttx: part of the coordinate ISO tests for you?
<soren> As I mentioned earlier, if someone does an LVM install, please ping me on IRC with the results.
<ttx> part of the "running tests"
<soren> I'm having some troubles with those, you see.
<jiboumans> ttx: sure; just making sure we have decent coverage
<jiboumans> soren: any other updates from the QA team?
<soren> I'm currently running automated tests of the default install, the bind9 test case, the lamp test case, and the mail test case. On i386 and amd64.
<mathiaz> soren: how have you automated the tests?
<soren> I'll be doing that every day from now until release so that we know very quickly if there are regressions.
<mathiaz> soren: via checkbox?
<soren> mathiaz: Nope, it's currently using autotest.
<mathiaz> soren: how does the reporting works?
<soren> mathiaz: It spits out a report in the end. I just need to put it somewhere.
<soren> mathiaz: Today is the first time I'm running it where everything seems to be working, so I haven't attacked the reporting part yet, really.
<mathiaz> soren: ok - who's responsible for checking the report and filing bugs if things break?
<soren> mathiaz: That would be me, since it's currently running on a machine in my office :)
<mathiaz> soren: I'd suggest to check with c3 - and try to get the test included in the tests he runs
<mathiaz> soren: that way it's all part of the QA regression tests that he does
<soren> mathiaz: That's the goal.
<soren> mathiaz: I've just not gotten that far yet.
<mathiaz> soren: glad to hear that !
<jiboumans> soren: any other updates from the QA team?
<soren> jiboumans: Not much. We've got a round of interview for the server QA position this week, so that spot might be filled soon. We're hoping :)
<soren> Apart from that, I don't have anytihng.
<jiboumans> soren++ thanks for the update. any questions for QA?
<ttx> nope
<jiboumans> ok, great. next topic
<jiboumans> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (jjohansen)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (jjohansen)
<jiboumans> Bug 494565 is the first on the list :)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 494565 in linux "support ramdiskless boot for relavant kvm drive interfaces in -virtual" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/494565
<jjohansen> jiboumans: right, its top of my list for next week
<jiboumans> jjohansen: great. as you know we have a blueprint depending on it
<jiboumans> jjohansen: any updates from the kernel team for this week?
<jjohansen> yeah I would like to get it nailed down next week
<jjohansen> not that I can think of, we froze the kernel on friday and most changes were in thursday
<jiboumans> jjohansen: as a heads up, we've targeted this spec for alpha3: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/server-lucid-other-cloud-providers
<mathiaz> jjohansen: I ran into a pci hotplug error
<jiboumans> relevant for you are any kernel issues that may be coming up to run on rackspace's environment
<jjohansen> mathiaz: thanks
<mathiaz> jjohansen: when doing some ebs testing on UEC
<mathiaz> jjohansen: have you seen the bug?
<jjohansen> no
<mathiaz> jjohansen: bug 506698
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 506698 in linux "Kernel WARNING: at /build/buildd/linux-2.6.32/arch/x86/include/asm/dma-mapping.h:154 ___free_dma_mem_cluster+0x102/0x110 [sym53c8xx]()" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/506698
<jjohansen> jiboumans: I am not aware of anything
<jiboumans> jjohansen: we expect to discover them during alpha3 if they exist. hopefully non will surface ofcourse
<mathiaz> jjohansen: when libvirt/kvm removes the device, the guest see this warning/error message
<jjohansen> mathiaz: okay I'll have a look
<mathiaz> jjohansen: thanks
<jiboumans> any other questions for the kernel team?
<jiboumans> ok, great
<jiboumans> seems i missed a bit of discussion earlier though, my appologies. so:
<jiboumans> [TOPIC] server-lucid-aws-client-libraries
<MootBot> New Topic:  server-lucid-aws-client-libraries
<jiboumans> we had some outstanding action points
<jiboumans> ACTION jib to complete Perl list for AWS client libs
<jiboumans> i've added the perl modlues to the wiki
<jiboumans> in most cases we only have one choice, and at least 2 of them are only provided by amazon, meaning we have to investigate their license
<jiboumans> mathiaz: let me know if you need more info on this
<jiboumans> ACTION nijaba to complete PHP list for AWS client libs
<nijaba> see http://nicolas.barcet.com/drupal/fr/php-ec2-libraries I would recommend packaging tarzan
<jiboumans> mathiaz: ^
<mathiaz> nijaba: could you add it to the wiki page?
<nijaba> mathiaz: sure
<mathiaz> nijaba: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AWSClientLibraries
<jiboumans> nijaba: did you check for libraries for all the services? or is tarzan doing it all?
<nijaba> jiboumans: there is not that many in total in PHP.
<jiboumans> nijaba: i saw some by amazon, beyond just ec2 though
<nijaba> jiboumans: zend and Tarzan cover most services
<erichammond> jiboumans: I'm pretty sure that Amazon released their SimpleDB package under the Apache 2 license.  They seemed somewhat supportive of adding it to CPAN, though it was difficult to find anybody in charge who could answer authoritatively.  It's been about a year since I pursued the issue with them.
<jiboumans> erichammond: if you have a contact, i can facilitate from the perl side
<zul> nijaba: is it easy to package? ;)
<nijaba> zul: I have not gone that far
<jiboumans> ACTION Mathiaz to send out AWS Client lib RFC
<mathiaz> jiboumans: you've already re-actioned me this one
<jiboumans> i don't recall, but i'll trust you
<jiboumans> as it stands, we have input for perl/python/php
<jiboumans> barring easily packagable or community efforts for the other languages, i suggest we target only those 3 for alpha3
<ttx> jiboumans: ack
<jiboumans> ok, moving on
<jiboumans> [TOPIC] Weekly SRU review: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/KnowledgeBase#SRU%20weekly%20review (mathiaz)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly SRU review: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/KnowledgeBase#SRU%20weekly%20review (mathiaz)
<mathiaz> jdstrand: is the security team working on bug 379329?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 379329 in openssh "CVE-2008-5161: OpenSSH CBC plaintext recovery" [Low,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/379329
<mathiaz> that's the only bug being nominated for this week
<mathiaz> http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ubuntu-server-team/fixedbugs.ubuntu-server.latest.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ubuntu-server-team/fixedbugs.ubuntu-server.latest.html
<mathiaz> ^^ anything SRU worth in last week's fixed bugs?
<ttx> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/vsftpd/+bug/462749
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 462749 in vsftpd "vsftpd-2.2.0 (currently in karmic) is affected by pasv_address regression" [Medium,Fix released]
<zul> i was just about to say that
<ttx> was wondering about bug 502071
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 502071 in spamassassin "FH_DATE_PAST_20XX scores on all mails dated 2010 or later" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/502071
<mathiaz> bug 462749 accepted for karmic
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 462749 in vsftpd "vsftpd-2.2.0 (currently in karmic) is affected by pasv_address regression" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/462749
<ttx> SA srus were done already
<ttx> that's all for me
<mathiaz> ttx: SA is all good - thanks to ScottK work
<mathiaz> http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ubuntu-server-team/acceptedbugs.ubuntu-server.latest.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ubuntu-server-team/acceptedbugs.ubuntu-server.latest.html
<mathiaz> ^^ make sure that things are moving on this front as well
<mathiaz> That's all for the SRU review
<jiboumans> thanks mathiaz
<jiboumans> [TOPIC] Using bzr for package maintenance (zul)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Using bzr for package maintenance (zul)
<zul> so i just want to get people to use bzr branches for server packages more often and want to know what people think, especially mathiaz
<mathiaz> zul: it's a good thing!
<ttx> bzr-branches++
<zul> i been using bzr branches more and I think it would be a good idea to get more poeple to use it more, maybe write some documentation on how we should use it
<ivoks> yes, docs please
<ivoks> :D
<mathiaz> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DistributedDevelopment/Documentation
<mathiaz> ^^ this is what james_w has been writing up
<ttx> zul: are you missing something in particular ?
<mathiaz> to cover working with package branches
<ttx> not enough people doing it ?
<zul> ttx: not enough people doing it and we might need some policy
<ttx> policy for waht ? Everything should be submitted in branches ?
<mathiaz> one proposal was to push for using pkg branches in the SRU process
<mathiaz> combined with the LP review process
<zul> yeah I been doing that when I have time for SRU
<smoser> i've a question..
<smoser> so when i push a branch as a fix for a bug, it gets magically attached.
<smoser> but then once that bug is fixed, i often want to trash that branch
<smoser> is there any negative effect of that ? ie, the branch i attach for the fix often includes just the single fix i want, to avoid confusion for anyone.
<mathiaz> smoser: you can edit the status of the bzr branch in LP
<mathiaz> smoser: and mark it merged
<mathiaz> smoser: that way it won't show up in the default LP listings for branches
<smoser> then it would cease to show up on my list .
<ttx> mathiaz: it would still appear on the bug ?
<smoser> ah. thats reasonable.
<mathiaz> smoser: but LP still knows about it
<mathiaz> ttx: I think so
<ttx> ok
<zul> thats it from me
<jiboumans> any actions coming from this?
<ivoks> pain
<ttx> zul: ok -- at this point it's difficult to ask patch submitters to replace their debdiff by a branch proposal
<ivoks> :D
<ttx> so I don't think there is much to set in stone in a policy
<jiboumans> ivoks: the good kind, surely
<zul> ttx: true i just want to encourage people more to use bzr branches
<ttx> ok, I think that's done, then
<jiboumans> [TOPIC] Open Discussion
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open Discussion
<jiboumans> please, not all at once ;)
<ivoks> o/
<ivoks> we haven't mentioned mail-stack blueprint
<ivoks> ScottK is assigned, but i'll be working on it
<jiboumans> ivoks: ok, we cleared the spec a few meetings ago, so we didn't have it on teh agenda
<ivoks> so if someone has the power of chaning assignee, please do
<jiboumans> happy to
<ivoks> thanks
<jiboumans> ivoks: well volunteered, done
<jiboumans> ivoks: anything about the spec itself?
<ivoks> all except debconf integration should be doable for alpha3
<jiboumans> ttx, ivoks: debconf sounds like something that would have to be done for featurefreeze, no?
<mathiaz> jiboumans: yes - I'd say so
<ttx> jiboumans: yes
<jiboumans> alright, so what do we do with this item?
<ivoks> we could convert it into: make packages ask questions
<mathiaz> jiboumans: try to stick it into alpha3
<ttx> ivoks: that would still be a feature
<mathiaz> jiboumans: if not - plan to ask for a FeatureFreeze Exception if it's important
<ivoks> ttx: yes, but easily done
<ttx> well, those questions are pretty essential
<ivoks> i don't think so
<ttx> "Debconf will be used to gather additional information to get to a fully functional system. "
<ivoks> those are 'what kind of mail server do you want us to set up for you?'
<ivoks> for example, do you want postgrey, rbl, etc
<ivoks> we could assume that if someone installs postgrey-postfix that she wants it
<jiboumans> ivoks, ttx: to summarize, if the debconf questions are essential for setting up the system, they need to be done for alpha3
<jiboumans> if they're not, let's reflect that in the work items
<ivoks> ok
<ttx> jiboumans: ack
<jiboumans> if it's a bit of each, split the items; we can't guarantee an exception and it'd be a shame to miss the window
<jiboumans> [TOPIC] Next meeting is next Wednesday from 14:00 UTC to 15:00 UTC in #ubuntu-meeting
<MootBot> New Topic:  Next meeting is next Wednesday from 14:00 UTC to 15:00 UTC in #ubuntu-meeting
<jiboumans> hopefully with a less crowded agenda
<ttx> hm
<jiboumans> thanks all for your time, now let's get alpha2 out the door :)
<jiboumans> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 09:36.
<lool> Heya
<doko> barry, cjwatson, ev, ga, james_w, lool, mvo, Keybuk, slangasek, robbiew: ping meeting in 2min
<ev> hi
<tremolux> hey folks
<mvo> hji
 * slangasek waves
<doko> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:01. The chair is doko.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<slangasek> ttx: yeah, defer, unfortunately
<ttx> slangasek: no pb
<ttx> will do
<doko> anybody missing?
<slangasek> not me!
 * lool i o O ( Anybody missing please raise hand )
<doko> [TOPIC] lightning rounds ...
<MootBot> New Topic:  lightning rounds ...
<doko> slangasek: please start
<slangasek> alpha2 && !sleep
<slangasek> (that's a sentence, right?)
<lool> WFM
<doko> the template does require 2-4, but anyway
<doko> lool: continue?
<lool> Was on training a couple of days; did a random set of Ubuntu and OEM stuff around pbuilder and ARM for instance, and need to focus on higher priority projects in the next week.
<lool> (done)
<doko> mvo: ?
<mvo> software-center: bugfixing & working on the reviews branch
<mvo> support-timeframe: blocked on review lp:~mvo/launchpad/support-timeframe-information from someone from LP
<mvo> misc updates for alpha-2 (app-install, command-not-found, apt-ddtp, ...)
<doko> mvo: I suppose you handle the blocker yourself?
<mvo> doko: yes
<mvo> I will keep asking and if nothing happens start making noise
<mvo> but for now I need patience
<doko> ev: next?
<ev> Nearly there on translated keyboard names, just need to get console-setup building.  Giving further review to the ubiquity design specification.  Looking into why we're calling os-prober 10 times in an install from ubiquity.
<ev> Going to start on jockey support in ubiquity just as soon as I merge my keyboard guessing branch and translated keyboard names stuff.  Looking for areas where UTF-8 passwords break.  Found out that ubiquity is currently broken for zh_CN due to bug 495012.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 495012 in ubiquity "Kubuntu OEM install hangs up on boot" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/495012
<ev> blocked: Waiting to hear back from IS on the geoip database.
<ev> done
<cjwatson> [sorry I'm so late - the school run took much longer than usual]
<ev> erm, that should be bug 506996
<ubottu> Bug 506996 on http://launchpad.net/bugs/506996 is private
<doko> ok, I'll go next
<doko> ARM - tracking/forwarding toolchain bug reports, OOo build workaround for arm
<doko> GCC-4.5 test rebuild (based on a Debian rebuild by lucas), up to now filed 20 GCC reports, and 160 reports for packages (need to find an automatic way to import and tag these reports into lp)
<doko> IcedTea6-1.7 release testing
<doko> done
<doko> cjwatson: ?
<cjwatson> done: progress on foundations-lucid-reliable-device-id-in-grub, preparing to send to Debian for feedback; unfortunately most time this week spent on Chrome OS build system work
<cjwatson> blocked: nothing, except bug in Earth's rotational period allows only 24 hours per day
<cjwatson> todo: finish this iteration on foundations-lucid-reliable-device-id-in-grub; move on to designing the UI layouts for LVM/RAID in ubiquity
<cjwatson> oh and maybe also look at repeated debconf-communicate startups in ubiquity
<cjwatson> [done]
<doko> james_w, barry, Garry, Keybuk?
<doko> [TOPIC] outstanding actions from last week?
<MootBot> New Topic:  outstanding actions from last week?
<doko> I can't see any in the report from last week
<cjwatson> Keybuk's on holiday, per calendar
<cjwatson> james_w is at an LP sprint
<doko> thanks
<tremolux> I'm here, want my lightning round?  :)
<cjwatson> ("Build From Branch Sprint")
<doko> tremolux: sure, just missed the nickname :/
<tremolux> no prob  :)
<tremolux> Finished code (in software-center) to maintain app selection for all cases when
<tremolux> a list view is refreshed; branch uploaded for mvo review.
<tremolux> Continue working on bugs.
<tremolux> Got Lean trained.
<tremolux> that's all
<tremolux> thanks
<doko> [TOPIC] Any business from activity reports
<MootBot> New Topic:  Any business from activity reports
<doko> I didn't see any so far (topics)
<ev> we're over the line in the burndown chart
<slangasek> ev: is there a burndown chart that's been updated in the past 3 days?
<cjwatson> does anyone have things they explicitly want to redistribute to others?
<ev> oh, I hadn't noticed it stopped updating
<slangasek> (though yes, we're probably over anyway)
<lool> it broke when parsing some blueprint when i ran it locally two days ago
<lool> I told pitti  but didn't debug the underlying issue
<cjwatson> I haven't been getting mail about parse errors - I normally would
<cjwatson> maybe that's stopped happening with the new version
<lool> In my case:
<lool> 18:07 <lool> IOError: [Errno 36] File name too long: '/home/lool/.launchpadlib/api.edge.launchpad.net/cache/api.edge.launchpad.net,beta,ubuntu,+source,nvidia-graphics-drivers-173,+bug,474917,related_tasks-application,json,a7caeeaceb2eecb9f25ae7c30a177c68'
<doko> anybody who wants to take care about that?
<lool> It might or might not be the same issue pitti is hitting
<doko> will note as open isue
<slangasek> nobody has any workitems they want redistributed, otherwise?
<lool> I guess I can start by pinging pitti again to confirm it's the issue
<doko> ok
<doko> slangasek: release meeting this week?
<cjwatson> burndown chart: http://macaroni.ubuntu.com/~pitti/workitems/canonical-foundations.html, except the line has been reset :-(
<slangasek> doko: yes
<slangasek> cjwatson: hah - well, we're above that line too
<cjwatson> which I suppose was necessary because it now includes quite a few more items, but it's still a bit of a shame
<doko> [TOPIC] Reminder for release meeting
<MootBot> New Topic:  Reminder for release meeting
<doko> slangasek: anything about release meeting/alpha-2?
<lool> ev, slangasek: Oh you folks were looking at the piware.de one?
<ev> lool: I was, yes.
<slangasek> there are also a large number of WIs there that are team assigned; perhaps people should review the ones related to their specs and make sure we find real people to assign them to
<slangasek> doko: please help with ISO testing
<cjwatson> I sent mvo a mail about most of those team-assigned WIs a while back, not sure I acted on the reply though ...
<lool> slangasek, ev: Talking to pitti: piware.de full cycle chart will be removed; piware.de is only used for A2 team charts and everything will be macaroni in the future (per his email)
<slangasek> also, please have a look at https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+bugs?field.milestone=21444 and make sure any bugs you have there are on track for resolution (probably not for alpha-2, but we don't want to wait for the week of a3 either)
<ev> lool: okay, thanks
<mvo> some of the softtware-center ones are still unassigned, I replied to that mail, but I think its just too many work items that got assigned to us
<doko> for the pending MIR's an archive-admin is needed, doesn't need to be pitti
<slangasek> doko: what pending MIRs?
<slangasek> the ones on the milestone bug list?
<doko> python-openid, pastescript, nagios-nrpe
<doko> yes
<lool> MIR are approved
<slangasek> incorrect, those need someone to actually seed the packages
<lool> In Progress is approved
<lool> Just need seed changes + upload + promotion
<slangasek> archive admin isn't supposed to change the overrides until the package has been seeded
<slangasek> (otherwise they just show up on the component-mismatches list as candidates for demotion again)
<doko> ok, I'll take care of these three
<slangasek> do you know where they're meant to be seeded?
<slangasek> (I would've expected server team to handle this before now)
<doko> well, yes, addressing the submitters to seed those
 * slangasek nods
<doko> [TOPIC] good news?
<MootBot> New Topic:  good news?
<slangasek> OOo hasn't FTBFS on armel yet? :)
 * mvo made launchpadlib and the software-center gtk ui work together nicely 
<doko> but the compiler bug isn't reproducible with upstream builds :/
<slangasek> heh
<doko> [TOPIC] chair for next meeting?
<MootBot> New Topic:  chair for next meeting?
 * lool o/
<doko> [TOPIC] any other business?
<MootBot> New Topic:  any other business?
<doko> so it looks we are finished?
<lool> doko: Thanks for chairing
<doko> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:40.
<slangasek> thanks!
<mvo> thanks
<ev> thanks
 * marjo waves
<davmor2> hello
<bdmurray> hi
 * fader_ waves.
<sbeattie> hey
 * pedro_ waves
 * ara waves
<marjo> #startmeeting QA Team
<MootBot> Meeting started at 11:00. The chair is marjo.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<marjo> Agenda:
<marjo> # SRU testing -- sbeattie (Steve Beattie)
<marjo> # Bugday highlights -- pedro
<marjo> #
<marjo> Future of Ubuntu QA Launchpad team (https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-qa) -- ara
<marjo> # Calls for testing: mailing list or "Contact This Team" -- ara
<marjo> [TOPIC] SRU testing -- sbeattie (Steve Beattie)
<MootBot> New Topic:  SRU testing -- sbeattie (Steve Beattie)
<sbeattie> SRU activity was light this week, probably due to everyone working on alpha 2 stuff.
 * soren wanders in
<sbeattie> SRU Activity report for the past week (since 2009-12-09):
<sbeattie> * karmic: 9 new packages in -proposed (cairo, gcc-4.4, gnome-screensaver, grub2, libxml2, linux, linux-backports-modules-2.6.31, opensc, xserver-xorg-video-intel) and 9 packages pushed to -updates (asterisk, eglibc, gnome-screensaver, landscape-client, linux, muse, postgis, samba, vlc)
<sbeattie> * jaunty: 1 package pushed to -updates (landscape-client)
<sbeattie> * intrepid: 2 packages pushed to -updates (landscape-client, smart)
<sbeattie> * hardy: no SRU activity
<sbeattie> * dapper: no SRU activity
<sbeattie> Thanks to Konrad Paumann, till kahle, Benedikt Wegmann, Eberhard Beilharz, Terrasque, Andrew Bennetts, Dmitri Petros, matze, Jaap, Manuel, saniac, Dominik, Mike Gratton, Petri Lehtinen, Guillaume Bottex, Rune Svendsen, Luciano Faletti, Jean-Baptiste Lallem, Alex Sidorenko, Ryan Finnie, and Fabrice Coutadeur for testing packages in -proposed this week.
<soren> Sorry I'm late, I had a humungous spider I needed to... um.... "handle". :)
<marjo> soren: thanks for sharing...
<sbeattie> that's all I have for SRUs.
<marjo> sbeattie: i'm curious re: xserver* proposed updates
<marjo> any negative reports, so far?
<sbeattie> marjo: I'm not seeing anything with the respective bug reports...
<marjo> sbeattie: ok, thx; i will reinstall them on my system and report accordingly
<sbeattie> marjo: that'd be appreciated, thanks!
<marjo> test kernel from manjo has been stable for a few days
<marjo> so, maybe x is ok
<marjo> [TOPIC] Bugday highlights -- pedro
<MootBot> New Topic:  Bugday highlights -- pedro
<pedro_> The first bug day of this year will be celebrated Tomorrow
<pedro_> the target is.. Gnome Power Manager : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugDay/20100114
<pedro_> so we welcome everybody who want to help that day, there's plenty of reports :-)
<pedro_> special thanks to Kamusin for helping with the organization again
<marjo> thx pedro!
<pedro_> that's all from here , more news next week
<marjo> [TOPIC] Future of Ubuntu QA Launchpad team (https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-qa) -- ara
<MootBot> New Topic:  Future of Ubuntu QA Launchpad team (https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-qa) -- ara
<ara> This team started as a very restricted team, but it was never used for anything useful
<ara> So, my question would be, should it be kept as restricted as it is now?
<ara> and, what requirements shall we ask to enter?
<soren> Is there another team that's been used for people loosely involved in QA?
<ara> soren, we have Ubuntu Testing team, Ubuntu Bugsquad, Ubuntu Bugcontrol
<soren> Ok.
<soren> Do we have any idea what we want to use the team for?
<marjo> ara: my thought is to use ubuntu-qa as the umbrella team, therefore not restricted
<ara> the team was created by Laserjock, who is no longer in the QA team. He had his reason to make it that restricted (the entry level was high), but I cannot remember why he did it
<marjo> and place membership requirements on Testing Team, along the lines of Bug team
<sbeattie> are there any bzr branches owned by ubuntu-qa?
<bdmurray> ubuntu-qa-tools?
<ara> no, ubuntu-qa-tools is own by bugcontrol members
<bdmurray> nope, that's bug control so would be fine
<ara> there are some branches, but the last time they were updated was 50 weeks ago
<sbeattie> (err, in one case, that's because I must not be pushing to the right place)
<soren> heh.. :)
<sbeattie> but I can make sru-verification the owner of that branch.
<marjo> sbeattie: please do
<marjo> ara: do you have a specific proposal, or are only looking for suggestions?
<ara> suggestions
<marjo> ah, ok
<ara> I never understood the goal of this team, and the person that created it, left ubuntu qa soon after that
<marjo> well never mind that
<marjo> let's just repurpose it to our current needs
<plars> could it just be that this team should own the tools used by the others? similar to the umbrella team model you described?
<marjo> plars: that would make sense to me
<marjo> otherwise, delete the team altogether
<soren> In that case we would certainly want to make it a restricted team, right?
<marjo> oh no! we're back to restricted!
<davmor2> would it not be better to get a clearer picture of how you want to structure the various teams
<ara> restricted is fine, what I don't understand is the high entry level
<ara> and nobody is managing that
<ara> the queue of people wanting to enter keeps growing, but nobody is acting on it
<bdmurray> maybe redirect them to iso testing or bug squad teams?
<marjo> ara: at this point, i would rather encourage more people to join "QA", so I "high entry requirements" don't work for me
<bdmurray> joining the team doesn't do anything other than say I'm interested in qa
<marjo> bdmurray: so keep the team, but use it to direct people to bug squad or test team, right?
<bdmurray> keep the team for future software tools / bzr branches and redirect people interested in joining to one of the subteams
<marjo> bdmurray: i agree with your thinking: people who are interested in qa just want to join that team
<marjo> bdmurray: yes!
<marjo> the more the merrier, then we focus on their area of interest
<davmor2> currently you have bug-squad entry level, bug-control higher level where would the qa team come into that side of the qa team?
<bdmurray> then change the team from moderated to restricted
<marjo> davmor2: i'm thinking qa team = entry level
<marjo> fits the idea of umbrella and more the merrier
<marjo> then funnel them into their area of interest
<marjo> this would address soren's question of "loosely involved in QA" also
<soren> marjo: In that case, I don't generally think the team should own tools.
<marjo> soren: definite ack
<marjo> +1, i mean
<davmor2> marjo: okay so that is making more sense now we know more where you are coming from with this.  Would this then own all the general qa-tools etc that are use by both teams?
<marjo> ara, have you got enough suggestions?
<ara> hehe, yes, but the decision has to come from the team, not me :)
<marjo> davmor2: no, soren's suggesting that "qa team" should NOT own any tools
<soren> I don't think it's a very good idea to let tools be owned by very open teams.
<soren> We don't want random, mischievous people coming around and "fixing" those tools. :)
<marjo> ara: i suggest the team think through these suggestions and try to reach a consensus decision next week
<marjo> soren: agree
<bdmurray> could we get a list of the suggestions?
<ara> marjo, OK, I will send an email to the list explaining the situation
<ara> bdmurray, ^
<marjo> ara: thx
<bdmurray> ;-)
<marjo> [TOPIC] Calls for testing: mailing list or "Contact This Team" -- ara
<MootBot> New Topic:  Calls for testing: mailing list or "Contact This Team" -- ara
<ara> the question here is that when we do a call for testing we use the ubuntu-qa mailing list
<ara> should we use the "Contact This Team" (Ubuntu Testing) as well to reach people not in the mailing list
<ara> ?
<ara> or would it be too intrusive?
<fader_> ara: Any idea how many people that would cover?
<soren> Depends..
<soren> Which team?
<soren> :)
<davmor2> ara: hey they signed up hit both
<soren> Oh "Ubuntu Testing". Sorry, I missed that.
<marjo> ara: yes, also use "Contact This Team"
<marjo> ara: more the merrier, again
<ara> :)
<fader_> It might be worth doing a "Contact This Team" once or twice every cycle encouraging people to sign up for the mailing list, but I'd be wary of contacting people who haven't signed up every time we need testers
<bdmurray> fader_: that makes sense to me
<marjo> fader_ : but then we may lose out on some potentials
<bdmurray> Isn't there some announcement when you join a Launchpad team?
<fader_> marjo: I think contacting the team occasionally is a compromise between blasting everyone we can and respecting the wishes of people who haven't necessarily volunteered to receive mail
<marjo> fader_ : i see
<fader_> Though one could make the argument that if you're not willing to test and don't want to hear about testing, maybe you shouldn't be a member of the team
<marjo> you think that might turn them off, right?
<davmor2> fader_: they signed up to ubuntu testing I think it's fair to ask them to test stuff
<marjo> fader_ : yeah, that's my thot
<pedro_> well why you joined the team in the first place if you don't want to receive anything from it?
<pedro_> just to collect icons?
<marjo> pedro_ : yeah!
<fader_> davmor2, marjo: I'm fine with that as long as it's pretty clear to people how to leave the group if they don't want to help or hear from us
<pedro_> i don't see why contact this team is a bad thing...
<pedro_> haha
<marjo> fader_ : kinda like "please take me off your call list"
<davmor2> fader_: no make the badge collectors suffer ;)
<soren> I feel the same way. These are not unsuspecting strangers. These are people who explicitly joined a team that deals with testing.
<pedro_> davmor2, +1 :-)
<fader_> Hehe
<charlie-tca> I think contact the team. If they signed up for credit for membership, they aren't testing and will normally then resign
<fader_> Fair enough; I'm convinced. :)
<charlie-tca> It's like they collect teams
<marjo> fader_ this might be another way to weed out some folks by triggering them to act
<soren> The occasional e-mail is a small price to pay to have the wicked cool ubuntu-qa icon anyway :)
<marjo> soren: key word "occasional"
<charlie-tca> At least each testing week for the alphas and betas
<marjo> ara: what do you think? did we convince fader_ thoroughly?
<ara> I think so :)
<fader_> I'm convinced, and just ran off to join ubuntu-qa on lp!
<fader_> (Not sure how I missed joining it before...)
<marjo> folks: any new topics for today?
<marjo> i assume everyone is testing alpha 2 :-)
<marjo> even those with bad backs
<davmor2> hell yeah
 * fader_ laughs.
<davmor2> marjo: not so much testing as breaking alpha 2
<charlie-tca> +1
<marjo> davmor2: how's old wubi?
 * soren is still curious if anyone has manged an ubuntu server lvm install
<davmor2> not on the cds
<davmor2> marjo: ^ pointed it out to ev
<marjo> davmor2: thx
<marjo> if there's nothing else, i propose we adjourn the meeting
<davmor2> marjo: I'm just checking to see if it has been resolved and if the respin has been booked to get them on the cd
<charlie-tca> While everyone is around, any chance of getting my ubuntu-bugcontrol membership renewed?
<marjo> davmor2: ok, thx
<bdmurray> charlie-tca: sure - what is your lp id?
<charlie-tca> charlie-tca
<charlie-tca> Thanks
<bdmurray> well then
<davmor2> marjo: are you classing wubi as release critical?
<davmor2> slangasek: ^
<marjo> davmor2: in the past, no, but slangasek might
<marjo> going once
<marjo> going twice
<marjo> meeting adjourned
<fader_> \o/
<marjo> thx everyone!
<davmor2> thanks
<pedro_> thanks
<schwuk> Thanks marjo
<ara> thanks!
<fader_> Thanks all
<marjo> go alpha 2!
<marjo> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:55.
<highvoltage> who's around for the edubuntu meeting?
<mhall119|work> I am
<mhall119|work> do I count?
<highvoltage> of course you do
<mhall119|work> not that I have any input
<mhall119|work> but I'd like to see what the state of Edubuntu 10.04 is
<highvoltage> mhall119|work: yes most of what I could say is on the mailing list so far
<mhall119|work> congrats on the bug day
 * alkisg waves
<highvoltage> our image was broken today because the build system didn't allow universe packages like we thought it would
 * mhall119|work needs some DVD-Rs to test with
<highvoltage> mhall119|work: did you have a chance so far to look at all the new theming stuff for qimo yet? I looked at the xplash, etc theming, but aparently it's going to be dropped for lucid so I'd like to get more clarity on that myself
<highvoltage> mhall119|work: or virtualbox :)
<mhall119|work> highvoltage: someone gave me links to tutorials on theming GDM and XSplash
<mhall119|work> but I haven't read them yet
<mhall119|work> been working on loco.ubuntu.com, and now school has started back up
<mhall119|work> highvoltage: I'd like to have some DVD's to show off at SCaLE
<highvoltage> mhall119|work: ah yes, that will be cool
<highvoltage> mhall119|work: have you decided whether you're going to skip karmic for qimo? I remember you mentioned last time you were thinking about waiting for Lucid for the next release
<mhall119|work> highvoltage: I think that's the plan, yes
<dgroos1> Hi!
<highvoltage> hi dgroos1 :)
<mhall119|work> I've been playing with the Lubuntu alphas to see if I can use LXDE instead of XFCE
<dgroos1> :)
<mhall119|work> I think I'm going to stay with Xubuntu for now though, it has better supporting programs
<mhall119|work> just have to make the darn config manager work right for a Qimo session
<highvoltage> mhall119|work: yes LXDE is quite small, I guess all you need is a way to get big pannels in there (you could probably just include an xfpanel in an lxde session and it shouldn't be too big)
<mhall119|work> highvoltage: my concern is that with my charity, it's often the only computer in the house, so I want it usable for adults too
<mhall119|work> the LXPanel would work just as well as the XFPanel
<mhall119|work> but configuration apps and such are not so nice in LXDE
<highvoltage> yep
<mhall119|work> so I just have to beat XFConf into submission and I'll be golden
<mhall119|work> well, except for theming
<highvoltage> heh
<highvoltage> I think we can end this meeting, we've reported the bug day on the list, we have to do some testing when our image is ready so that we can have an alpha2 tomorrow, but that's about it that's important at this stage
<highvoltage> and few people showed :)
<alkisg> Yeah we can continue in #edubuntu if something's needed
<dhillon-v10> hi all
<highvoltage> yep
<highvoltage> hi dhillon-v10
<dhillon-v10> highvoltage, hi what's up
<dhillon-v10> mhall119|work, hi :)
<highvoltage> dhillon-v10: I saw some of your activity from the bug reports- nice :)
<dhillon-v10> highvoltage, thanks :) my exams are going on atm so my work speed is a little slow but it will increase when my exams are over
<highvoltage> great
<mhall119|work> dhillon-v10 is involved in _everything_, he's awesome
<highvoltage> I'
<dhillon-v10> mhall119|work, thanks :) I try
<highvoltage> I've only known him for a short time but I agree
<dhillon-v10> highvoltage, mhall119|work soon we are going to take over this world, oh btw check this out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4MwTvtyrUQ
<highvoltage> yeah I've seen that before :)
<mhall119|work> I don't have audio at work
<mhall119|work> I assume nobody knows what a browser is?
<dhillon-v10> mhall119|work, yup :)
<highvoltage> mhall119|work: they mostly confuse it with a 'search engine'
<mhall119|work> I'm not surprised
<dhillon-v10> mhall119|work, why not, it was pretty shocking to know that people even in new york don't know what a browser is
<mhall119|work> dhillon-v10: people are, by and large, unfamiliar with the proper names for things on computers
<dhillon-v10> mhall119|work, true, ignorance
<mhall119|work> it's not necessarily a bad thing, people by and large don't need to know their proper names
<mhall119|work> I don't know the proper names for most of the components in my car
<dhillon-v10> mhall119|work, same here :)
<mhall119|work> and yet I drive reasonably well
<mhall119|work> especially by Florida standards ;)
<dhillon-v10> lol
<slangasek> davmor2: wubi> RC for alpha-2? no, but we want to make sure any breakage is on the radar
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-01-14
<cprofitt> sorry I am late pleia2
<pleia2> we're having it over in #ubuntu-us :)
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-01-15
<jamalta> quick question, when i see the calendar at http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar it shows events in my timezone, but when i try to add it to my account it goes back to the default calendar timezone (GMT)
<jamalta> how can i get it to add it and move the events to my timezone?
<jiboumans> o/'s 7 mins early
<persia> None of that now.  You'll start a trend of everyone showing up early, and the logs will get all confused :)
 * jiboumans hides for a while
<persia> No worries.  It's just that MootBot has a feature to list the meeting attendees, tracked by the nicks that sent text between the formal start and end of the meeting.
<persia> Some people o/ just to show up in that log, even if they don't say anything else in the meeting.
<persia> But doing so prior doesn't provide that benefit.
 * marjo waves
 * Riddell grabs his canoe and surfs marjo's wave
<slangasek> morning all
<jiboumans> o/
<ttx> \o
 * asac waves
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<slangasek> hmm
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:02. The chair is slangasek.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<slangasek> ah, there we are :)
<slangasek> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/2010-01-15
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/2010-01-15
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Actions from previous meeting
<MootBot> New Topic:  Actions from previous meeting
<slangasek>   * fader_ to check with marjo whether lucid-qa-iso-tracker is deferred to alpha-3, and re-target appropriately in LP (n/a, blueprint is completed)
<slangasek>   * fader_ to verify whether 494627 == 503700 by re-testing affected hardware
<slangasek>   * davidbarth to review cross-team assignments for dx specs and contact right people
<slangasek>   * asac to link une-2d-launcher MIRs from blueprint
<slangasek>   * asac to link MIR for uboot to spec
<slangasek>   * slangasek to claim "adding ARM alternate images to the ISO tracker" (DONE)
<slangasek>   * ttx to target "irqbalance - add to the default install" to a3
<slangasek>   * ev to retarget foundations-lucid-gfxboot-update greeter to alpha-3
<slangasek> fader_, asac, ttx: status there?
<asac> both have happened
<slangasek>   * slangasek to do some triaging of cron bug reports (DONE)
<ttx> sladen: done
<ttx> ah
<ttx> slangasek: done
<slangasek> davidbarth: cross-team workitem assignments> sorted?
<fader_> slangasek: As you say, the blueprint is completed.  The bugs were dupes and are marked as such.
<slangasek> fader_: and the second one?
<davidbarth> slangasek: ah, nope; not all
<fader_> slangasek: The bug was a dupe and has been updated in lp.
<davidbarth> slangasek: action me again for next week; but i've already sorted the scoping for a3 which was the topic of the week
<davidbarth> slangasek: thanks to rickspencer3 and robbiew
<slangasek> davidbarth: ok.  do you need any help with trying to identify developers to take these work items for you?
<slangasek> davidbarth: (feel free to ping me about it, if so)
<slangasek> [TOPIC] QA Team
<MootBot> New Topic:  QA Team
<davidbarth> slangasek: i'm browsing the blueprints targeted for a2 and a3 right now
<davidbarth> slangasek: ok, thanks
<marjo> * HW Testing
<marjo> http://people.canonical.com/~fader/hw-testing/current.html
<marjo> Netbooks:
<marjo>         Passed: 8 (62%) Failed: 2 (15%) Untested: 3 (23%)
<marjo> Laptops:
<marjo>         Passed: 24 (92%) Failed: 0 (0%) Untested: 2 (8%)
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~fader/hw-testing/current.html
<marjo> Servers:
<marjo>         Passed: 48 (91%) Failed: 0 (0%) Untested: 5 (9%)
<marjo> Desktops:
<marjo>         Passed: 12 (100%)     Failed: 0 (0%) Untested: 0 (0%)
<marjo> Open bugs:
<marjo> LP #504315  Toshiba NB100 failed to resume from hibernate
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 504315 in hibernate "Toshiba NB100 failed to resume from hibernate" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/504315
<marjo> LP #497546  Microphones not working on Dell Vostro 320
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 497546 in pulseaudio "Microphones not working on Dell Vostro 320" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/497546
<marjo> all categories look good except for netbooks
<slangasek> davidbarth: ok; if you find anything you need to get escalated, don't hesitate to ask
<marjo> * alpha-2 test report
<marjo> Lucid Alpha 2 Test Report
<marjo> 2010-01-15
<marjo> = Summary =
<marjo> == Test Coverage ==
<marjo> Image Test Coverage = 37/39 = 94.8%
<marjo> Test Case Coverage = 138/210 = 65.7%
<marjo> Upgrade Coverage = 3/10 = 30%
<slangasek> marjo, fader_: what does 'investigating' mean for the comment on the untested netbooks?
<marjo> === Test Failure Analysis ===
<marjo> 20 Test Failures
<marjo> Failure Rate 20/138 = 14.49
<fader_> slangasek: It means I have not yet determined why they were not tested
<fader_> slangasek: Basically a placeholder/note to myself to figure out what's wrong and fix it
<slangasek> ok
<marjo> Alpha 2 image test coverage was quite high; thx to all for testing
<slangasek> yes, kudos to all our testers there
<marjo> we will continue to push for higher test case coverage and of course, upgrade coverage
<asac> marjo: what numbers are you aiming for wrt test coverage?
<marjo> asac: 90 - 100%!
<marjo> very possible, IMO
<slangasek> unless we decide that the extra test coverage means we can do more last-minute ISO respins ;)
<asac> haha
<cjwatson> let's not, and say we did
<marjo> == Bugs summary ==
<marjo> === Summary of Unfixed Issues ===
<marjo> 48 bugs unfixed
<marjo> Critical - 2
<marjo> High - 7
<marjo> Medium - 6
<marjo> Low - 2
<marjo> Unknown - 1
<marjo> Undecided - 30
<marjo> Critical Bugs:
<marjo> LP: #505772 - system freezes sometimes after X is up for a while - Confirmed - Critical
<marjo> LP: #506683 - indicator-applet doesn't show menu choices when selected - Confirmed - Critical
<slangasek> both of which seem to be in progress, so that's good
<marjo> slangasek: am i not using the right format for mootbot to pick up lp numbers?
<slangasek> marjo: I think the IRC bot only responds to 'bug #505772'
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 505772 in linux-mvl-dove "system freezes sometimes after X is up for a while" [Critical,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/505772
<marjo> ah, sorry
<slangasek> no worries
<marjo> === Summary of Fixed Issues ===
<marjo> 6 bugs fixed
<marjo> High - 2
<marjo> Medium - 1
<marjo> Unknown - 1
<marjo> Undecided - 2
<marjo> Specs status and burn-down chart:
<marjo> http://piware.de/workitems/qa/lucid-alpha2/report.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://piware.de/workitems/qa/lucid-alpha2/report.html
<marjo> * UbuntuSpec:lucid-qa-iso-tracker
<marjo> Implemented as of Alpha-2! Thanks to ara, slangasek and stgraber!
<slangasek> do you plan to track the unfixed/fixed status over the next weeks?  (not sure it means much to count the # of issues fixed 1 day after the alpha...)
<marjo> slangasek: yes
<slangasek> ok
<marjo> part of SOP
<marjo> * UbuntuSpec:lucid-qa-checkbox-integrate-regression-testing
<marjo> One work item missed the Alpha-2 deadline:
<marjo> [cr3] Integrate into hardware certification to run on a per milestone basis: INPROGRESS
<marjo> Shooting for completion today.
<slangasek> ok, cool
<marjo> * UbuntuSpec:lucid-qa-kernel-test-automation
<marjo> Two work items missed the Alpha-2 deadline:
<marjo> [leannogasawara] gcov kernel testing to evaluate kernel coverage (ogasawara to build kernel, talk to fader for testing): TODO
<marjo> Shooting for completion next week.
<marjo> * UbuntuSpec:qa-lucid-automated-server-testing
<marjo> Six work items missed the Alpha-2 deadline:
<marjo> Integrate qa-regression-tests clamav tests into checkbox: TODO
<marjo>  Integrate qa-regression-tests cups tests into checkbox: TODO
<marjo>  Integrate qa-regression-tests cyrus-sasl2 tests into checkbox: TODO
<marjo>  Integrate qa-regression-tests fetchmail tests into checkbox: TODO
<marjo>  Integrate qa-regression-tests libvirt tests into checkbox: TODO
<marjo>  Integrate qa-regression-tests mysql tests into checkbox: TODO
<marjo> All retargeted for Alpha-3.
<marjo> slangasek: i was too quick to change blueprints per the suggestion
<marjo> so, i'll go back and fix so tools don't double up work items
<seb128> hi
<marjo> slangasek: that's all from QA team
<slangasek> marjo: the only thing that doubles is that the count of 'postponed' items increases; the server team wasn't doing this when they ran into the problem
<marjo> oh, ok
<slangasek> but the suggestion was just a suggestion, as long as the number of open work items is correct I'm ok with whatever teams decide :)
<marjo> ack
<slangasek> anyone have any questions for QA?
<slangasek> marjo: you said 6 items postponed for qa-lucid-automated-server-testing... http://macaroni.ubuntu.com/~pitti/workitems/all-lucid-alpha-2.html shows *44* outstanding items, was that a case of mis-milestoning in the blueprint?
<marjo> slangasek: no, the 6 items i refer to missed the alpha-2 deadline
<marjo> therefore are now part of the larger 44 outstanding items for post alpha2
<slangasek> marjo: the report seems to have thought that all the "Work items for later" were also due by alpha-2, so I guess the report needs tweaked
<marjo> slangasek: ack
<slangasek> anyway, moving on
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Desktop Team
<MootBot> New Topic:  Desktop Team
<slangasek> marjo: thanks
<slangasek> seb128: hi
<marjo> thx all!
<slangasek> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/ReleaseStatus
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/ReleaseStatus
<seb128> hey slangasek
<slangasek> Riddell: I see you edited that page today, do you know if it's fully up-to-date?
<Riddell> I don't think the gnome stuff is
<seb128> I've not prepared anything there just replied to the ping some minutes ago
<seb128> but I think I can reply to questions
<seb128> looking
<seb128> no apparently it's not
<slangasek> http://macaroni.ubuntu.com/~pitti/workitems/canonical-desktop-team-lucid-alpha-2.html looks good, anyway
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://macaroni.ubuntu.com/~pitti/workitems/canonical-desktop-team-lucid-alpha-2.html looks good, anyway
<Riddell> but I do have a Kubuntu update :)
<seb128> on the Ubuntu side we got an UNE sprint this week
<seb128> with good progresses
<seb128> we should have public isos to test soon
<seb128> the UNE session is working
<slangasek> seb128: one spec that I only just noticed had outstanding WIs for alpha-2 was lucid-ubuntu-one-symlinks-and-udfs, which I believes falls under the Desktop umbrella as far as Ubuntu delivery is concerned, but it's not included on the desktop team's report
<seb128> kenvandine, ^
<seb128> I don't know about online services tasks
<slangasek> seb128: do you know how to get that picked up by pitti's scripts?
<asac> (the new WI tracker has rough edges still ... for us lots of stuff got dropped etc. -> need to wait for pitti to understand it)
<slangasek> so that it's on the radar
<seb128> slangasek, no, I guess it needs pitti debugging
<kenvandine> seb128, slangasek: it isn't done, we need to get that changed
<seb128> I will let him now on monday
<slangasek> seb128: ok, let me action you for that?
<slangasek> [ACTION] seb128 to follow up with pitti wrt lucid-ubuntu-one-symlinks-and-udfs not tracked on the desktop team report
<MootBot> ACTION received:  seb128 to follow up with pitti wrt lucid-ubuntu-one-symlinks-and-udfs not tracked on the desktop team report
<seb128> slangasek, ok
<slangasek> kenvandine: is the spec in jeopardy for 10.04?
<slangasek> asac: if you want to poke me after the meeting about what stuff is dropping off your report, I might be able to make sense of some of it
<slangasek> Riddell: go ahead with your Kubuntu report?
<Riddell> Alpha 2 out the door and working reasonably
<Riddell> MIRs outstanding
<Riddell> kubuntu-notification-helper 503906
<seb128> on the alpha2 lists, the 	dx-lucid-session-menu "provide missing API to list users and switch sessions" is done now I think
<Riddell> virtuoso-opensource 503774
<Riddell> KOffice 2 on its way, plenty more MIRs needed there
<Riddell> Fixed since alpha 2 is the KDM double login needed issue in consolekit 495100
<Riddell> Systray applets now have dbus menu bling, thanks to agateau
<Riddell> SIP has a new version out, binary imcompatible, some distruption of Python bits which use it due (mostly Qt/KDE)
<seb128> I've seen robert_ancell uploading gdm with a change for that
<Riddell> KDM needs plymouth patches investigating (sitting in bug tracker upstream) and Kubuntu needs a Plymouth theme (work started)
<Riddell> KDE still needs HAL (udev doesn't offer replacements for all its functions) so please nobody break it
<Riddell> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kubuntu/Todo
<asac> slangasek: ok
<kenvandine> slangasek, no, it is real close to being done, last i heard
<slangasek> kenvandine: ok.  will you take care of cleaning up the whiteboard to target alpha-3 for the outstanding work?
<kenvandine> slangasek, yes
<slangasek> thanks
<slangasek> Riddell: thanks for the summary
<slangasek> anyone have other questions for desktop?
<slangasek> [TOPIC] DX Team
<MootBot> New Topic:  DX Team
<slangasek> seb128, Riddell, kenvandine: thanks
<davidbarth> slangasek: hi again
<slangasek> davidbarth, njpatel: hi :)
<njpatel> hey
<davidbarth> The weekly status report is at the usual place: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopExperienceTeam/LucidReleaseStatus
<davidbarth> In summary:
<davidbarth> A2 delivery over now; not all items delivered, but application-indicator considered in good shape.
<davidbarth> A2 burn-down chart for reference: http://piware.de/workitems/dx/lucid-alpha2/report.html
<davidbarth> Re-scoping for alpha-3 with more limited focus (see blueprints below)
<davidbarth> Dropping dx-lucid-notifications for the rest of the release
<davidbarth> Limiting work on dx-lucid-xsplash; upcoming call with Scott (after he returns from LCA)
<slangasek> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopExperienceTeam/LucidReleaseStatus
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopExperienceTeam/LucidReleaseStatus
<davidbarth> Limiting the scope of dx-lucid-me (new blueprint, to a simple/undifferentiated broadcast of status)
<slangasek> [LINK] http://piware.de/workitems/dx/lucid-alpha2/report.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://piware.de/workitems/dx/lucid-alpha2/report.html
<davidbarth> Blueprints tracked for alpha-3:
<davidbarth> dx-lucid-application-indicator
<davidbarth> of note there:
<davidbarth> transparent fallback and menu updates delivered yesterday (Thursday upload window)
<davidbarth> SDK guide updated
<davidbarth> that's https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopExperienceTeam/ApplicationIndicators
<davidbarth> FD.o registration still in progress (Gnome & KDE sync)
<davidbarth> dx-lucid-me-menu (NEW blueprint)
<davidbarth> dx-lucid-gtk-improvements - still re-scoping
<davidbarth> dx-lucid-sound-indicator
<davidbarth> of note here:
<davidbarth> Design analysis on-track: DONE
<davidbarth> Initial implementation: started
<davidbarth> (that's conor curran's work this week; our new starter; welcome!)
<slangasek> hah, that report looks a bit odd, your completed WIs also went away at the end... :)
<slangasek> [LINK] http://macaroni.ubuntu.com/~pitti/workitems/canonical-dx-team-lucid-alpha-2.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://macaroni.ubuntu.com/~pitti/workitems/canonical-dx-team-lucid-alpha-2.html
<slangasek> that one looks better
<davidbarth> other bp for a3
<davidbarth> dx-lucid-power-indicator
<davidbarth> dx-lucid-session-menu
<davidbarth> we're putting the update of the messaging menu a bit later for now; waiting for some feedback on our ability to deliver the first set of wi during a3
<asac> hmm. i am in that report with thumb2 spec ;)
<davidbarth> slangasek: thanks for the link; yeah this one's better
<davidbarth> questions on DX activities?
<davidbarth> asac: what's taht?
<cjwatson> davidbarth: the gfxboot-update DX dependency doesn't seem to be in your list?
<slangasek> davidbarth: is dx-lucid-netbook-launcher-startup-speed on track for alpha-3?  That was originally a2 and was retargeted
<cjwatson> davidbarth: foundations-lucid-gfxboot-update
<asac> davidbarth: that clearly has nothing to do with your team ... aka bug in wi-tracker
<davidbarth> slangasek: that one is; that's the netbook part of the report; we finished the round of analysis planned for a2; we have an issue currently with the speed that is not on par with our expectations
<davidbarth> cjwatson: kept in mind, but don't know where to track it as part of our bp
<davidbarth> asac: yes, it seems; we'll follow up with pitti on that
<cjwatson> davidbarth: it's Mark-priority, and I'm concerned about it falling off the list; it shows up on http://macaroni.ubuntu.com/~pitti/workitems/canonical-dx-team-lucid-alpha-3.html FWIW
<slangasek> [LINK] http://macaroni.ubuntu.com/~pitti/workitems/canonical-dx-team-lucid-alpha-3.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://macaroni.ubuntu.com/~pitti/workitems/canonical-dx-team-lucid-alpha-3.html
<cjwatson> davidbarth: it should be fine to reference it from your wiki page, if that's all that the problem is
<davidbarth> cjwatson: ok, noted; adding it to the generic dx-lucid-gtk-improvements one, that bratsche is assigned to
<cjwatson> seems a bit mismatched, but ok
<cjwatson> I can assign the work items in the foundations spec to bratsche, if that would help?
<njpatel> slangasek, the netbook startup speed was being worked on, but this week was the first time we had a clear idea of the times on Lucid (once desktop team did the packaging + session), we've pulled a graph of whats slow this morning and have a plan to fix that
<slangasek> njpatel: ok
 * cjwatson goes ahead and does that
<davidbarth> cjwatson: doing that now
<slangasek> anything else on DX?
<davidbarth> cjwatson: ok, you first on your bp; also adding it on a dx-lucid one; double accounting should not be an issue, as long as the wi is worked on, quickly
<cjwatson> davidbarth: *nod* I don't mind double-accounting here
<slangasek> davidbarth: do you not use the canonical-dx-team burndown charts to track your team's outstanding WIs?  The current iteration of the charts specifically includes all WIs assigned to members of the team, to try to help keep these things on the radar
<slangasek> (though this is the only one I know of assigned to DX this cycle for another team, so maybe there's no need to generalize?)
<davidbarth> slangasek: not sure which burndown you're referring to
<slangasek> davidbarth: http://macaroni.ubuntu.com/~pitti/workitems/canonical-dx-team-lucid-alpha-3.html , the one cjwatson pointed at
<cjwatson> the ones on macaroni as opposed to piware.de
<cjwatson> piware.de is the old set
<slangasek> let's keep moving, though
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Mobile Team
<davidbarth> ok, i hadn't seen this one, ie the team-assigned on; i was using the "old" ones
<MootBot> New Topic:  Mobile Team
<davidbarth> slangasek:
<ogra> thats us !
<asac> hi
<davidbarth> slangasek: thanks
<slangasek> davidbarth: thank you!
<slangasek> asac, ogra: hello
<asac> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/ReleaseStatus/Lucid
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/ReleaseStatus/Lucid
<asac> so ... because of the WI i still listed the old tracker for the overall progress
<asac> and for alpha-2
<asac> we need to get that sorted, but that was already discussed
<asac> == Weekly summary ==
<asac>  * uboot investigations: partitioning/fat issues worked around; new issue uncovered (see RC bugs)
<asac>  * linux-fsl-imx51 kernel update and verification for a2
<asac>  * thumb2 package code review - http://wiki.ubuntu.com/ARM/Thumb2PackageReviewList
<asac> [LINK] http://wiki.ubuntu.com/ARM/Thumb2PackageReviewList
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://wiki.ubuntu.com/ARM/Thumb2PackageReviewList
<asac>  * marvel thumb2 issues investigation - bug 504880 and bug 505772
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 504880 in linux-mvl-dove "[dove] possibility of thumb2 instructions invalidly being handled" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/504880
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 505772 in linux-mvl-dove "system freezes sometimes after X is up for a while" [Critical,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/505772
<asac>  * alpha-2 image testing
<asac>  * started alpha-3 planning
<asac> so lets first go for RC bugs
<asac> == RC Bugs ==
<asac> not much fixes as we tried to understand uboot and marvell issues
<asac> which are most pressing
<asac>  * Bug:505772: linux-mvl-dove "system freezes sometimes after X is up for a while"
<asac>  * Bug:504880: linux-mvl-dove "[dove] possibility of thumb2 instructions invalidly being handled"
<asac> those seem related ... and it might be a silicon issue with thumb2 as it seems
<asac> we are trying to get the latest hardware now to verify that thats really the case
<ogra> uboot is a swiss cheese ... you fix it on one side and new holes show up on the other ...
<asac> for uboot we worked around the issue with loading files from fat file system to find that we have issues with NIC
<asac>  * Bug:507887: uboot-imx "NIC not properly initialized in uboot code"
<asac> also now we found that anoter file hangs when loading from fat
<asac> but we also found that ext2 seems to work
<cjwatson> there may be hope for the future; one of the grub2 developers offered to port grub2 to arm if we could lay hands on some hardware for him
<ogra> the vendor patches are really tricky, one removes stuff a former added and the third adds it back again ... its a maze
<asac> so unless we find the bug in the fat code we can move there (image building will take a bit longer: instead of 2 minutes we get rather 15 minutes i was told)
<ogra> cjwatson, we dont have enough HW ourselves atm is our prob
<asac> right. but in the past we thought it could be fixed by partitioning only, but now i am not that optimistic
<asac> and will look at code more seriously
<slangasek> asac: is the progress on uboot bad enough that we need to start thinking about a fallback plan for lucid?
<cjwatson> ogra: yeah, I know
<ogra> slangasek, we have redboot working
<asac> slangasek: we have a fallback that seems to work: ext2
<slangasek> ok
<asac> and in worst case we can use reboot ... but lets not think about that yet
<asac> still some time to go. doesnt block our "images" atm
<ogra> right, there is still time until A3
<asac> so one good news is that
<asac>  * Bug:458537: linux-fsl-imx51: hibernate does not work
<asac> can be removed from our RC bug list. we got a confirm that that isnt even supported by freescale
<asac> hardware
<slangasek> asac: ok, will you pleas adjust the bug status accordingly?  (--> wontfix, unmilestoned)
<asac> yes, i just got that before the meeting :)
<slangasek> ok
<asac> ok so much on RC bugs... not great, but we at least things are moving
<asac> the marvell thumb2 thing is what bothers us most, but we will have more info on that next week
<asac> ok ... so back to specs:
<asac> == Blueprint/Activity alpha-2 late comers ==
<asac>  * mobile-lucid-arm-gcc-v7-thumb2: code porting needed documented; some work items left for debian import freeze time
<slangasek> asac: no need to reproduce the full webpage on IRC, I think
<asac> ok
<asac> good
<asac> i didnt include a summary of alpha-3 blueprints
<asac> as we are planning
<slangasek> yep, that's fine
<asac> but for that i need a good wi-tracker as its hard to estimate the work we can do with half of the items disappearing ;)
<asac> lets hope we get that sorted
<slangasek> let's /plan/ to get that sorted. :)
<asac> yes
<asac> so thats it ... see the report yourself and ask questions ;)
<slangasek> asac: mobile-lucid-arm-lightweightbrowser> how "pending" is this?  of all the mobile a2 specs, that had the lowest completion rate
<asac> slangasek: we want to do a good comparision on performance and need ffox 3.6 for that
<asac> anyway, thats done now and arm is doing the benchmarks
<asac> so once we have that we decide and just do it.
<slangasek> when are you expecting to have the benchmarks back?
<asac> definitly early next week
<slangasek> ok
<slangasek> no other questions from me; anyone else?
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Server Team
<MootBot> New Topic:  Server Team
<ttx> o/
<slangasek> asac, ogra: thanks
<slangasek> ttx: hi
<asac> thanks
<ogra> thanks
<ttx> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/ReleaseStatus
<ttx> ^ Our updated status
<slangasek> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/ReleaseStatus
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/ReleaseStatus
<ttx> Alpha2 release went relatively well, despite very late respins
<cjwatson> sorry about that ...
<ttx> that broke my nice 100% test coverage
<cjwatson> there was a bit of fallout from partitioner optimisation work
<cjwatson> some of which indeed is still ongoing
<ttx> the most annoying bit, I think, was bug 506297
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 506297 in plymouth "Graphical Ubuntu logo enabled on servers, no more login prompt" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/506297
<ttx> easily workarounded... if you know it's not frozen.
<slangasek> in the errata; should be addressable for a3
<ttx> On the bugs front...
<ttx> All remaining alpha2-milestoned bugs have been moved to alpha3.
<ttx> That's the MIR that have not been completed in time
<ttx> + the samba nmbd bug
<slangasek> working on that one today
<ttx> + the most annoying bug revealed in UEC testing so far
<ttx> We'll parse the UEC buglist for 1.6.2 reproduction and target other bugs appropriately
<ttx> On the list of bugs in oter teams and affecting us...
<ttx> apart from the boot confusion described above, we have bug 494565
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 494565 in linux "support ramdiskless boot for relevant kvm drive interfaces in -virtual" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/494565
<ttx> that blocked delivery of one of the specs we had for alpha2
<ttx> My understanding is that it should be fixed soon, now that alpha2 is out of the door
<ttx> ^ kernel team
<ttx> On the specs side...
<ttx> I included a quick summary of the spilled-over items from alpha2 that were retargeted to alpha3
<ttx> The most significant failure is server-lucid-ec2-boothooks
<ttx> which blocked another one (server-lucid-ec2-config)
<ttx> Both are high-priority on the alpha3 subcycle
<ttx> Jos and I spent most of our week working on alpha3 planning
<ttx> it's mostly completed, should be published on Monday, though looking at the alpha3 workitems graph should give you a good idea of what's coming up
<ttx> http://macaroni.ubuntu.com/~pitti/workitems/canonical-server-lucid-alpha-3.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://macaroni.ubuntu.com/~pitti/workitems/canonical-server-lucid-alpha-3.html
<ttx> Questions ?
 * slangasek takes a minute to finish digesting
 * ttx will add status lines to all whiteboards to get a saner Status in those reports
<jiboumans> slangasek: 89dc3d665b3c4d5188e3ab963c79e4fe
<slangasek> server-lucid-eucalyptus-karmic-retrospective - you note the hardware delivery is late (last week, it was expected this Thursday)
<slangasek> jiboumans: heh
<ttx> jiboumans: if you're going to hash me, please do SHA256
<slangasek> ttx, jiboumans: do we have a new delivery date from IS?
<ttx> slangasek: we asked them... jiboumans, any answer ?
<jiboumans> slangasek: no date. i'm expecting it early next week and elmo didn't say 'no'
<slangasek> ok
<slangasek> no other questions from me
<slangasek> anyone else?
<cjwatson> jiboumans,ttx: could you mail that to me with [is-review] in the subject line, and I'll check on it next call
<jiboumans> cjwatson: you mean RT #36737?
<jiboumans> cjwatson: you appear to be subscribed
<cjwatson> jiboumans: ah, never mind, it already has a suitable priority
<cjwatson> jiboumans: I'm subscribed to everything in the platform queue ;-)
<ttx> heh
<jiboumans> cjwatson: i admire your mailreading skills sir
<cjwatson> maildeleting
<slangasek> read mail real fast
<cjwatson> (it's a useful opportunity to prioritise)
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Security Team
<MootBot> New Topic:  Security Team
<slangasek> jiboumans, ttx: thanks
<jdstrand> o/
<slangasek> (skipping over kernel team for the moment, as I'm just going to be dumping their report in from email)
<jdstrand> as always, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/ReleaseStatus/Lucid
<slangasek> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/ReleaseStatus/Lucid
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/ReleaseStatus/Lucid
<jdstrand> things are still going ok. we haven't had to postpone any more since last week
<jdstrand> we are still plugging away at our blueprints
<jdstrand> other than the fact that it would be nice to have a png file instead of svg so we can include it in moin and have it display in firefox, I don't have much to report
 * cjwatson seconds that
<slangasek> :)
<slangasek> jdstrand: looks good to me, thanks
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Kernel Team
<MootBot> New Topic:  Kernel Team
<jdstrand> sure, np
<slangasek> kernel team is off sprinting, so I have the report by email
<slangasek> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Lucid
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Lucid
<slangasek> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Lucid#Milestone%20lucid-alpha-2
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Lucid#Milestone%20lucid-alpha-2
<slangasek> "Two Apparmor deliverables while complete were pushed out to immediately after alpha-2 due to unresolved bugs, they are expected to hit next week.  Boot performance has regressed significantly for the kernel with plymouth entering the initramfs.  suspend/resume testing plans are now in place for CELF et al with improved reporting on the cards.  Freescale imx51 hibernate is slated to work with some new patches from Freescale, testing in progress.  
<slangasek> ... Freescale update to vendor supplied BSP complete. Marvell dove update to 2.6.32 based BSP should upload shortly."
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Foundations Team
<MootBot> New Topic:  Foundations Team
<slangasek> (no, I won't take questions on the kernel ;)
<slangasek> cjwatson: hi
<cjwatson> apologies for shabby report this week (in particular I haven't had time to do any bug analysis); I've been off on another project, but I've broken the back of it now
<cjwatson> Weekly summary:
<cjwatson>  software-center bug-fixing and work on reviews branch
<cjwatson>  nearly there on translated keyboard names in installer
<cjwatson>  starting on jockey support in ubiquity
<cjwatson>  grub2 reliable device ids well in progress, preliminary patch under review
<cjwatson>  test rebuild with gcc-4.5, much bug-reporting
<cjwatson> alpha-2 specs:
<cjwatson>  foundations-lucid-gfxboot-update half-postponed to alpha-3; blocked on DX team work
<cjwatson>  foundations-lucid-boot-recovery not quite finished; still needs bug 505887, which I'll unblock today
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 505887 in sysvinit "Provide static-sh alias name and ship busybox-static by default" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/505887
<cjwatson> alpha-3 specs:
<cjwatson>  I've just made sure that everything essential/high is milestoned here (hence the massive jump today), except for distributed-development and daily-builds.  As a consequence we may find ourselves deferring a few things.
<cjwatson>  I promoted foundations-lucid-oem-dvd-iso to High yesterday at the request of the OEM team, who are concerned about making sure this lands.
<cjwatson>  The existing list for alpha-3 looks reasonably safe at this point, but we certainly have a *lot* to do.
<cjwatson> In general: we were more or less on-track up to Christmas, but (as expected) the holidays left us well behind track and it's taking a while to catch up, so the charts aren't looking great.  We'll take a look at
<cjwatson>  low- and medium-priority blueprints at the sprint, and very likely defer some.
<cjwatson> [LINK] http://macaroni.ubuntu.com/~pitti/workitems/canonical-foundations-lucid-alpha-3.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://macaroni.ubuntu.com/~pitti/workitems/canonical-foundations-lucid-alpha-3.html
<cjwatson> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/ReleaseStatus/Lucid
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/ReleaseStatus/Lucid
<slangasek> foundations-lucid-oem-dvd-iso> hum, where is that expected to live?
<slangasek> (seeing as cdimage is already at the limit)
<cjwatson> read the spec :-)
<slangasek> ok :)
<cjwatson> it calls for a script to generate ISOs on request, rather than hosting more on cdimage, for exactly that reason
<cjwatson> and OEM Services will deal with generation and testing
<slangasek> no questions here
<slangasek> anyone else?
<slangasek> [TOPIC] MOTU
<MootBot> New Topic:  MOTU
<slangasek> cjwatson: thanks
<slangasek> ScottK: hi
<ScottK> Hello
<ScottK> No excitement in MOTU.
<slangasek> are we ready to rm the unbuildable packages yet? :)
<ScottK> We could, as always, use more help on NBS transitions.
 * slangasek nods
<ScottK> slangasek: No.  I need to hunt the individual down.
<slangasek> ScottK: ok.  anything else?
<ScottK> boost1.38 transition is almost done
<ScottK> That's it.
<slangasek> \o/
<slangasek> ScottK: ok, thanks
<slangasek> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:33.
<slangasek> and thanks, all!
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-01-16
<akshat> hello
<fenre> hi
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-01-17
<humphreybc> hi all
<humphreybc> have we got a better turnout tonight?
<fenre> yup
<humphreybc> cool - who's here?
 * godbyk waves
 * ubuntujenkins says hello
<mparmpathomas> maybe you should send a remind in the mailing list
<humphreybc> hmm where are the key people like jmburgess, dutchie, kevingardiner, tacantara, jaminday etc?
<humphreybc> darn it we aren't having much luck!
<humphreybc> we'll wait ten minutes and see who else shows up
<humphreybc> Okay so while we're waiting check out the agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Meetings#Agenda
<humphreybc> dutchie you're here, right?
<dutchie> o/
<humphreybc> sweet
<dutchie> now may not be the best time to start the Champions' League on FIFA 99 though
<humphreybc> heh
<humphreybc> well
<humphreybc> you watch the soccer, i'll ping you if there's anything important happening
<humphreybc> I know how you UK folks like your soccer
<humphreybc> I guess I'm taking notes for this meeting
<dutchie> I'm playing the football on the ps1
<humphreybc> OH
<humphreybc> hahaha
<humphreybc> man I remember Fifa 2000 on the computer
<humphreybc> good times
<humphreybc> anyway,
<humphreybc> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 05:08. The chair is humphreybc.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<fenre> haha, "ps1" :P Good times :)
<humphreybc> okay so agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Meetings#Agenda
<humphreybc> first item on the list is "Roll Call" - I guess we've already done that :)
<humphreybc> next, welcome to new members... those that are here. fenre, ubuntujenkins - you guys are new, no?
<ubuntujenkins> indeed
<humphreybc> cool so what are you interested in doing?
<fenre> as for now, I'm on the norwegian translation team..
<humphreybc> awesome
<humphreybc> it'll be good to have a translator in here for once
<humphreybc> normally we never hear from them :P
<ubuntujenkins> well I don't mind helping with writing stuff for chapter three I was going to e-mail the person listed on the blue print soon
<fenre> Gotta start somewhere
<mparmpathomas> hey, i am new too, from the greek translators
<humphreybc> oh hi there, awesome, two translators! neat :)
<humphreybc> ubuntujenkins: Ilya is on Chapter 3, I'm sure he won't mind you helping out. I'm not sure where he is at the moment.
<humphreybc> okay well we probably shouldn't stuff about too much - "Changes since last meeting" is next on the list.
<humphreybc> so as you might have heard, we've got a new way of editing things
<humphreybc> Jamin Day is the head of the editing team. We assign the author to each chapter blueprint, and one editor as the "approver"
<humphreybc> the idea is that the author and the editor work closely together
<humphreybc> as a team
<humphreybc> the editor acts as a sort of "co-ordinator" of the chapter, and the "middle man" if you like between the authors and the project leads
<humphreybc> So everyone okay on that?
<doctormo> Howdy
<ubuntujenkins> sounds good to me
<humphreybc> hey Martin
<humphreybc> okay neat. Pressing on - new ToC - well most of you won't be affected by that as you're all new to the project. The ToC is on the wiki, and the chapter blueprints are all sorted out now.
<humphreybc> LaTeX stuff - well not a lot happening there, godbyk do you want to briefly explain what you've done regarding the main.tex file?
<godbyk> humphreybc: Sure.
<brunobernardino> hi there
<humphreybc> hi brunobernardino, we've just started the meeting :)
<godbyk> Originally all of the formatting code was included in the preamble of the main.tex file
<humphreybc> here's the agenda for you: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Meetings#Agenda
<brunobernardino> nice :)
<godbyk> .I've moved that to our own document class file (ubuntu-manual.cls).
<godbyk> Think of it like separating the css into its own file instead of inlining it in an html file.
<ring> sorry for the late
<humphreybc> no problem ring, meeting agenda here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Meetings#Agenda
<ring> my net was down
<humphreybc> we just started :)
<humphreybc> Okay so godbyk has cleaned up our template a bit and future-proofed our manual :)
<humphreybc> okay next, "Style and Content of Margin Notes"
<humphreybc> hi thorwil
<humphreybc> meeting agenda here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Meetings#Agenda
<thorwil> hi!
<humphreybc> so this is where we get into the nitty gritty
<humphreybc> we need to decide on a style for the margin notes
<humphreybc> for those who don't know, they're the ones that are currently green
<godbyk> There appear to currently be three kinds/uses of callouts:
<humphreybc> So, ideas? I'll go first: I think the margin notes should probably not be coloured at all, or have a border. I think they should be in a different font and size, but not stick out too much so they detract from the main text.
<brunobernardino> what do you mean with style?
<godbyk> 1. cross-references in margin notes.
<brunobernardino> oh ok
<godbyk> 2. a box (website) pointing to a website
<godbyk> 3. a box (Definition) containing a definition
<brunobernardino> I was thinking you could mean style as in style of writing
<godbyk> 4. a box (Note) containing a definition.
<humphreybc> nope style as in appearance
<humphreybc> hmm
<humphreybc> do we need all four types?
<brunobernardino> so black, with a top border to separate from the content. font should be the same, but the size obviously smaller
<ubuntujenkins> may be give them a pale cream colour and curve the conners or a red out line?
<thorwil> humphreybc: no box, smaller font, first line aligned with baseline of main text but rest not is rather typical for margin notes
<godbyk> lol.. wow.
<humphreybc> heh
<humphreybc> lovely
<humphreybc> Um we sort of need mockups of these really
<godbyk> Perhaps before we discuss the particular formatting, we should get an idea of what the boxes will contain.
<thorwil> using a box costs space for padding
<humphreybc> sure
<godbyk> That will help us figure out what kind of formatting to use.
<humphreybc> that's a good idea godbyk
<brunobernardino> I agree with godbyk.
<humphreybc> okay so margin notes
<godbyk> Do the boxes contain material that the reader *should* read, or that they can *optionally* read?
<humphreybc> margin notes contain....
<godbyk> So far, the margin notes have only been used to note cross-references.
<humphreybc> well some of the boxes will be short definitions that are expanded on in the glossary
<humphreybc> so they will be "optionally" read
<godbyk> For example: "See chapter X for more information on Y."
<humphreybc> yea
<ring> go with thorwil
<humphreybc> well I guess they're optional
<humphreybc> should we keep the margin notes exclusively for cross references?
<ring> godbyk +1
<ring> System:    Host ring-desktop Kernel 2.6.31-14-generic i686 (32 bit) Distro Linux Mint 8 Helena - Main Edition
<ring> yes
<humphreybc> anyone?
<ubuntujenkins> yes
<thorwil> notes are ok, too
<brunobernardino> yes, notes too
<humphreybc> [VOTE] Should _margin_ notes be _exclusively_ used for cross references?
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Should _margin_ notes be _exclusively_ used for cross references?.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<humphreybc> =1
<humphreybc> oops
<humphreybc> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from humphreybc. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<humphreybc> :P
<dutchie> margin notes, yes
<dutchie> +1
<brunobernardino> because it doesn't make sense for the user to read something on a page and have to go to another to read a note
<MootBot> +1 received from dutchie. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<ubuntujenkins> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from ubuntujenkins. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<thorwil> but margin notes should be optional-to-read, nothing where you call the readers attention with fancy styling
<waltmenz> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from waltmenz. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<brunobernardino> -1
<MootBot> -1 received from brunobernardino. 4 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<thorwil> -1
<MootBot> -1 received from thorwil. 4 for, 2 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<godbyk> As for the other note boxes (the ones that are smack dab in the middle of the paragraphs): So far, they don't contain any material that requires them to interrupt the paragraph. I'd suggest either moving this material to the margin area or placing the box after the paragraph has finished.
<fenre> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from fenre. 5 for, 2 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<ring> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from ring. 6 for, 2 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<dutchie> godbyk: yeah, they do sort of ruin the run of the paragraph
<humphreybc> what is THE MOST important thing we'd need to tell the reader?
<brunobernardino> it's not that we're questioning
<humphreybc> ie. What should have the highest priority to interrupt the paragraph?
<brunobernardino> it's the manual's readibility
<brunobernardino> :)
<humphreybc> Warnings?
<humphreybc> Definitions?
<thorwil> shouldn't the most important be the paragraph itself?
<brunobernardino> you're reading something, and then only after 4 pages you get something like: "Note: X is a Window System" (just an example)
<humphreybc> Right but we can use notes to highlight something as well
<brunobernardino> of course the paragraph is important
<thorwil> humphreybc: could be emphasis within the text, though
<brunobernardino> When you read a book, the margin notes contain more than cross reference. They contain small simple definitions or synonyms that can help the reader
<humphreybc> notes can be used to provide subtle background information on something, cross referencing, or warnings. Just as some examples
<humphreybc> Perhaps we could get rid of in-line notes all together?
<godbyk> Some examples of how others have handled warnings: I've seen them be set in a box preceding the section that's dangerous. I've seen icons used next to the paragraph that contains dangerous info.
<brunobernardino> yes, and merge them in margin notes
<doctormo> I wouldn't have inline notes and such during demonstration and pratical how to sections. They'll interupt the flow
<humphreybc> so we have a tonne of margin notes?
<thorwil> no, no warnings in the margin, please
<godbyk> If the definition/website/note boxes stay small, we can put those in the margin alongside the cross-references.
<humphreybc> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 6 for, 2 against. 0 abstained. Total: 4
<brunobernardino> I was talking about notes
<brunobernardino> (11:25:42) brunobernardino: When you read a book, the margin notes contain more than cross reference. They contain small simple definitions or synonyms that can help the read
<brunobernardino> not warning
<brunobernardino> warnings*
<thorwil> yeah
<brunobernardino> of course warnings and "MUST READ" info has to go within the paragraph
<godbyk> brunobernardino: I'd agree with that.
<brunobernardino> or it'll miss it's point
<godbyk> If it's short and supplemental, it can go in the margins.  If it's important, it should go in the flow of the main text block.
<brunobernardino> exactly, godbyk understood me :)
<thorwil> yes
<humphreybc> Okay so help me summarize, warnings = in paragraph, maybe bold or bigger font or different colour or something. Cross references and "background info" (as long it's not too long) are in the margins.
<brunobernardino> yup
<ubuntujenkins> yes
<brunobernardino> I agree with that
<humphreybc> And we have no in-line notes to interrupt the flow.
<godbyk> humphreybc: Yes
<ring> go with brubernardino
<humphreybc> Okay we need a vote on this I feel :)
<ring> +1
<brunobernardino> ring: bruno :)
<thorwil> humphreybc: other means of emphasis in the text: icons on the start of a paragraph
<ring> ok
<ring> bruno
<humphreybc> [VOTE] Warnings and IMPORTANT things are in the paragraph, with formatting to highlight the importance. Cross references and background info are in the margins. Remove in-line notes altogether.
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Warnings and IMPORTANT things are in the paragraph, with formatting to highlight the importance. Cross references and background info are in the margins. Remove in-line notes altogether..
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<brunobernardino> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from brunobernardino. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<godbyk> +1
<dutchie> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from godbyk. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<MootBot> +1 received from dutchie. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<humphreybc> +1
<thorwil> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from humphreybc. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<MootBot> +1 received from thorwil. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
<ubuntujenkins> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from ubuntujenkins. 6 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 6
<thorwil> bbl
<mparmpathomas> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from mparmpathomas. 7 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 7
<ring> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from ring. 8 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 8
<waltmenz> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from waltmenz. 9 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 9
<fenre> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from fenre. 10 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 10
<humphreybc> doctormo?
<brunobernardino> ring: I was saying bruno because you said brubernardino instead of brunobernardino, but you can call me bruno to simplify :)
<humphreybc> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 10 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 10
<doctormo> humphreybc: I'm a not voting by stander :-)
<brunobernardino> why's that?
<humphreybc> nice, so that takes care of what the notes _contain_ - now what they'll _look_ like
<humphreybc> he's not technically part of our project :)
<humphreybc> [TOPIC] What the margin notes should look like.
<MootBot> New Topic:  What the margin notes should look like.
<brunobernardino> ok
<humphreybc> Suggestions, please.
<godbyk> I'd recommend setting them in \footnotesize, no borders or colors.
 * dutchie is not a designer
<humphreybc> godbyk: I agree.
<brunobernardino> as I said before, no color, smaller size, same font, with only a top border to separate from the content
<humphreybc> But maybe a different font? Maybe Serif?
<brunobernardino> why do you think we should use a different font?
<humphreybc> how about having them in BrickRed or Maroon?
<humphreybc> Might look nicer :)
<brunobernardino> I think that if they look "too" different, they'll stand out way too much
<ring> no color, smaller size, same font, with only a top border to separate from the content
<brunobernardino> I get what you're saying humphreybc, but the notes objective may fade with that
<humphreybc> true
<godbyk> http://kevin.godby.org/private/ubuntu-manual/main.pdf
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://kevin.godby.org/private/ubuntu-manual/main.pdf
<humphreybc> [VOTE] Should the notes have colour?
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Should the notes have colour?.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<brunobernardino> -1
<MootBot> -1 received from brunobernardino. 0 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -1
<godbyk> I've been toying with the formatting a bit, but wanted to discuss things with everyone before I tore it apart too much. :)
<ring> -1
<MootBot> -1 received from ring. 0 for, 2 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -2
<humphreybc> woah kevin, nice!
<dutchie> -1
<MootBot> -1 received from dutchie. 0 for, 3 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -3
<godbyk> -1
<MootBot> -1 received from godbyk. 0 for, 4 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -4
<mparmpathomas> maybe a backround color would be useful, think different colors for websites, cross references and anything else written in margins, and a guide in the beggining. Margin notes are optional and with the color system the reader can choose what to read...soft colors...so the keeper keeps attraction in the main text
<fenre> -1
<MootBot> -1 received from fenre. 0 for, 5 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -5
<ubuntujenkins> I think just an outline
<waltmenz> -1
<MootBot> -1 received from waltmenz. 0 for, 6 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -6
<humphreybc> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 0 for, 6 against. 0 abstained. Total: -6
<mparmpathomas> keeper=reader* sry
<brunobernardino> mparmpathomas: I don't think there'll be so much of each type of content you mentioned in the margin notes for that to be of use for the reader.
<dutchie> godbyk: I like that, we need to get rid of those inline notes now
<humphreybc> Okay so no colour, margin notes - left or right side?
<godbyk> dutchie: Yeah, that's now on my TODO list. :-)
<humphreybc> I personally think right side
<godbyk> humphreybc: Depends. Are we wanting to set it up on twoside, so that we can print it on both sides of the paper?
<ring> left aligned
<humphreybc> you read left to right, it looks nicer. I don't like having the text indented too much when we don't have any notes.
<godbyk> (So it looks more like a book when printed.)
<humphreybc> Well we'll have to have a 2 pages per page option, to save paper, yes.
<humphreybc> But by default, no it'll just be A4 probably
<godbyk> highvolt1ge: Then the notes should go on the outside margins.
<godbyk> Whoops, meant humphreybc, not highvolt1ge.
<humphreybc> heh
<brunobernardino> yes, on the right
<godbyk> (Silly xchat autocomplete!)
<brunobernardino> hehe :)
<humphreybc> I think the right, I mean not many people are going to actually print this thing - it's going to be about 80-100 pages at my estimate, which makes 50 pages when printed 2 up. And lots of screenshots too...
<humphreybc> even if it is printed in bw, it'll still use a tonne of ink
<humphreybc> plus our research suggests that most people won't be inclined to print
<humphreybc> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Research#Results
<brunobernardino> I think we should work on making it smaller in number of pages
<humphreybc> Question 4
<c7p> does this help (http://pubs.logicalexpressions.com/Pub0009/LPMArticle.asp?ID=278)?
<humphreybc> c7p: URL doesn't work
<c7p> http://pubs.logicalexpressions.com/Pub0009/LPMArticle.asp?ID=278
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://pubs.logicalexpressions.com/Pub0009/LPMArticle.asp?ID=278
<humphreybc> bruno: yeah we can work on slimming it down after we've got to alpha
<humphreybc> oh link didn't work due to ?
<humphreybc> [VOTE] Should the margin notes be on the right?
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Should the margin notes be on the right?.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<humphreybc> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from humphreybc. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<ubuntujenkins> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from ubuntujenkins. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<waltmenz> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from waltmenz. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<mparmpathomas> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from mparmpathomas. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<vish> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from vish. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
<dutchie> +1/2
<dutchie> ;)
<brunobernardino> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from brunobernardino. 6 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 6
<humphreybc> dutchie: technically that would be +-1 :P
<ring> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from ring. 7 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 7
 * vish throws out dutchie's invalid vote ;p
<fenre> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from fenre. 8 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 8
<godbyk> http://kevin.godby.org/private/ubuntu-manual/main.pdf  (I updated the note callouts to be in the margin.)
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://kevin.godby.org/private/ubuntu-manual/main.pdf  (I updated the note callouts to be in the margin.)
<humphreybc> (the way I am running votes tonight is basically raising the topic, waiting for some discussions and opinions. If there are none then I will hold a vote)
<humphreybc> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 8 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 8
<humphreybc> So on the right I guess
<godbyk> Cool, since that's the default. :-)  (No extra coding for me!)
<humphreybc> haha nice
<brunobernardino> have you thought about making the margin notes go in the bottom?
<brunobernardino> footer notes?
<brunobernardino> just brainstorming here :)
<humphreybc> bruno: that would probably use too much space in the end
<humphreybc> altho
<humphreybc> i'm not sure
<godbyk> brunobernardino: We could do that, too.  I guess it depends on how easily people should be able to read the notes.
<humphreybc> I like margin better
<brunobernardino> I get the sense it attracts too much attention on the right
<humphreybc> It suits a "manual" more, I think.
<godbyk> If you don't want people to read them, footnotes are good.  :-)
<brunobernardino> godbyk: that's mean :) I read footnotes
<godbyk> Having a wider margin is also handy for those who want to take notes.
<humphreybc> godbyk: good point
<humphreybc> I think we'll go with margin notes, thanks anyway bruno :)
<ubuntujenkins> if there are multiple notes on a page and they are in the footer you have to reference them
<godbyk> brunobernardino: I do, too.  But I hate having to disrupt my place in the paragraph to immediately read the footnote.
<brunobernardino> ok
<godbyk> Endnotes are even worse. Keeping two bookmarks.  Ugh.
<brunobernardino> no problem, that's what we're here to do, discuss ideas, and see if they suit or not the objectives
<humphreybc> [TOPIC] How we are going to format the warnings etc
<MootBot> New Topic:  How we are going to format the warnings etc
<humphreybc> So, different colour? Bigger font? Bold? Underlined? Icons?
<godbyk> We might want to discuss warnings after we have some to format.  So far I haven't seen the callouts used as warnings.
<brunobernardino> yes, but we can imagine some
<brunobernardino> I believe we have two good options, imo:
<humphreybc> Well there will be plenty in chapter 7 :P
<brunobernardino> A small squared box on the left, OR a wide rectangle on the top of the paragraph
<humphreybc> I think we should make them a wee bit bigger, perhaps bold (either or, not both) and have a warning symbol to the left of them in the left margin.
<humphreybc> I'm not a huge fan of boxes or borders around text
<brunobernardino> these both should have a thin border with a very faded background and an image on the left
<brunobernardino> maybe I'm thinking too much website-style, my bad :)
<godbyk> I think just having a warning icon to the left of an indented paragraph is enough.
<humphreybc> and an icon like this: http://www.rhealth.com.au/content/Image/600px-warning_icon_svg.png
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk +1
<godbyk> I think that most boxes and borders are completely unnecessary.
<humphreybc> godbyk, I agree
<ubuntujenkins> exactly like that humphreybc
<brunobernardino> yes humphreybc I like that icon
<godbyk> humphreybc: Exactly like the icon I was thinking about.
<vish> humphreybc: use icons from humanity as far as possible , we already have the warning icon
<ubuntujenkins> a little explination at the start of the document to explain what the icon means
<humphreybc> [VOTE] Warnings should be in a paragraph, with an icon like the one above, that sits in the left margin, indented.
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Warnings should be in a paragraph, with an icon like the one above, that sits in the left margin, indented..
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<brunobernardino> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from brunobernardino. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<ubuntujenkins> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from ubuntujenkins. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<godbyk> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from godbyk. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<humphreybc> vish: yeah we will, that was just the easiest one for me to grab as an example
<vish> ok then +1
<humphreybc> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from humphreybc. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<vish> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from vish. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
<humphreybc> dutchie?
<waltmenz> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from waltmenz. 6 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 6
<dutchie> +_1
<dutchie> +!
<dutchie> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from dutchie. 7 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 7
<brunobernardino> lol
<humphreybc> LOL
<humphreybc> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 7 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 7
<fenre> +1
<humphreybc> oh noes!
<humphreybc> i'll put it as 8
<brunobernardino> oh noes!
<brunobernardino> :)
<brunobernardino> indeed
<humphreybc> cool
<fenre> sorry about that :P
<humphreybc> [TOPIC] Making the project more self-documenting
<brunobernardino> np, humphreybc's bad there ;)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Making the project more self-documenting
<humphreybc> Okay so let me explain
<humphreybc> At the moment we have a gargantuan wiki
<humphreybc> And, although I try to make it easy
<humphreybc> It can be difficult for users to know what's happening
<humphreybc> So I propose more documentation INSIDE the branch
<humphreybc> ie, more info i the readme, perhaps a better readme with formatting
<dutchie> you talking READMEs?
<humphreybc> And I also think each chapter should have a file with "notes" in it on what the chapter should contain, and anything else that is important
<humphreybc> I'm going to re-work the wiki this week sometime and cut down on some of the crap :)
<humphreybc> Feedback?
<brunobernardino> I'm not sure I'm getting what you want :S
<ubuntujenkins> as long as it is in one place i don't mind it just shouldn't be some on the wiki and some in the notes.
<godbyk> And if it's in multiple places, how will it stay in sync?
<humphreybc> ah well that's up to me lol
<humphreybc> So everyone is happy with the current documentation?
<godbyk> There seems to be more LaTeX how-to stuff in the readme.txt file than in the style guide (wiki), for instance.
<dutchie> +1 for putting it all in the READMEs
<humphreybc> what the WHOLE wiki?
<dutchie> well, no
<humphreybc> just the tex stuff?
<dutchie> but everything you need to know to do a basic additio
<humphreybc> I think the style guide etc should definitely be in the branch
<dutchie> n
<humphreybc> and if we could get some basic HTML going to actually format it a wee bit to make it easier to read, then that would be even better
<brunobernardino> I believe "tech" stuff that's not really relevant to the users who seek information about the manual itself (what's on it, download it, etc.) should go in some README file, yes, for the sake of making the wiki more "user-friendly"
<humphreybc> Hmm
<humphreybc> So who's going to do all the readme stuff?
<brunobernardino> Quoting: "(11:55:29) humphreybc: ah well that's up to me lol"
<humphreybc> yes well
<brunobernardino> kidding
<humphreybc> I'll see how I go
<humphreybc> I'm not a whizz at the tech stuff though, and I didn't write the style guide
<humphreybc> I can do little changes to keep stuff up to date
<godbyk> I can write up LaTeX how-to stuff and maintain a style guide, I s'pose.
<brunobernardino> I'm just thinking whoever does the technical stuff would be most fit to add changes in a readme file
<humphreybc> but not really keen on writing a large HTML how to tex doc
<humphreybc> well that would be godbyk and dutchie
<dutchie> I'm happy to do that
<brunobernardino> I don't think an "how to tex" doc would be a god idea, aren't there many out there already?
<humphreybc> yeah but relevant to our project
<godbyk> brunobernardino: More of a how-to for the ubuntu-manual-related TeX.
<brunobernardino> ok then, so it would be in the readme
<humphreybc> yep
<brunobernardino> but in plain texto
<brunobernardino> text*
<godbyk> Our own commands like \marginnote, \begin{terminal}, etc.
<humphreybc> well plain text at a minimum... even odt could work better
<brunobernardino> I don't see how an html manual would help making it easier to write/maintain
<humphreybc> it won't, it'll just be easier for newbies to read :)
<brunobernardino> well, do newbies care about tex?
<humphreybc> can you imagine if the entire wiki was just plain text on one page?
<brunobernardino> no, of course not
<humphreybc> sure, we've had tonnes of newbies want to help
<brunobernardino> but I believe it's meant for two different types of public
<humphreybc> well they might be newbies at tex, but not at everything else
<brunobernardino> oh, ok
<humphreybc> For example, people who are english teachers and want to help edit, but have never used latex before
<brunobernardino> but so we're back to what I was saying before
<ubuntujenkins> I am new a tex
<godbyk> I think that the TeX stuff used by the authors is fairly minimal.
<brunobernardino> how-to tex can be learnt easily somewhere else. What should go there is the how-to tex for ubuntu-manual
<humphreybc> Okay so improve the existing readme.txt?
<ubuntujenkins> seems easy enough I have no clue how to add commands to make boxes but if they are there I can use them
<humphreybc> Leave the stuff on the wiki?
<brunobernardino> I'm just trying to make it easier to maintain, like you said, this is the "Making the project more self-documenting" topic
<ubuntujenkins> leave it on the wiki
<humphreybc> righto
<humphreybc> dutchie or godbyk perhaps you could go over the readme.txt and just update it, and also make sure there is a clear point to our wiki for more infor
<godbyk> humphreybc: Sure.
<humphreybc> neat
<humphreybc> [TOPIC] Format of the Credits
<MootBot> New Topic:  Format of the Credits
<humphreybc> So for this I was just thinking a two column layout, without bullet points
<humphreybc> And we could probably alphabetize the list of people
<fenre> sounds good
<humphreybc> Oh and maybe a couple of pts smaller font, to save space
<humphreybc> we want to fit it all on one page if possible
<godbyk> I can play with that pretty easily.
<ubuntujenkins> we could probably do three columns
<humphreybc> godbyk: how easy is a two column layout list without bullet points?
<godbyk> Easy peasy.
<brunobernardino> yes
<humphreybc> yeah three columns even
<humphreybc> awesome
<humphreybc> sounds good
<brunobernardino> I thought the font was too big
<humphreybc> yeah it's just default font for now
<humphreybc> but smaller would be swell
<humphreybc> [TOPIC] Style of the Footer - and do we want/need a header?
<MootBot> New Topic:  Style of the Footer - and do we want/need a header?
<godbyk> What are we including in the credit lines? Just author names? Titles? Emails/websites?
<humphreybc> Just names
<humphreybc> oh and the title of each thing
<godbyk> Okay.
<humphreybc> so like how it is now
<humphreybc> although I might remove the "Project Leads" section
<humphreybc> I don't know how necessary that is. We should probably have some way of recognizing the people who put the most effort in, but we can come to that later.
<godbyk> For the running feet, I'd say just include the page number (unless you expect people will print the manual, then perhaps the manual title and chapter name).
<ubuntujenkins> page number  and title and chapter name any way
<humphreybc> Sure and colour/font size etc? I think it looks pretty good how it is. We may as well include the title and chapter name, if we have space.
<brunobernardino> yes
<ubuntujenkins> small font slightly grey/pail black
<godbyk> Why clutter the page by repeating the book title over and over?  Surely you've never forgotten which book you're reading.
<humphreybc> true
<brunobernardino> I believe the manual title + chapter name (left) and page number (right) - on the footer
<humphreybc> maybe just chapter title on the left, page number right
<brunobernardino> like ubuntujenkins said
<humphreybc> ah beat me to it :)
<godbyk> The chapter title is handy if you're flipping through the book to find the start of the chapter or a section referenced in that chapter.
<brunobernardino> godbyk: you're right, no manual title
<humphreybc> Although "Ubuntu Manual - Preferences and Hardware" doesn't take up much room when it's small and in grey or light red
<godbyk> But generally, putting the book title and author name on each page seems pointless to me.
<humphreybc> okay
<humphreybc> well then perhaps just chapter title
<humphreybc> chapter number?
<brunobernardino> yes
<ubuntujenkins> chapter Title
<humphreybc> Preferences and Hardware or 6. Preferences and Hardware ?
<brunobernardino> it can be useful for looking up a chapter
<brunobernardino> we memorize the number easier
<humphreybc> number + title I reckon
<godbyk> The number can be handy if you told someone to see chapter 10 for more info.
<brunobernardino> yup
<humphreybc> okay number + title it is
<brunobernardino> or lookup in the index
<ubuntujenkins> I don't like remembering numbers so both for the people who don't like names
<brunobernardino> hehe :)
<humphreybc> And header? We don't need it, nor want it.
<humphreybc> I just thought I'd cover all possible options.
<humphreybc> does anyone own the "Official Ubuntu Book"?
<brunobernardino> this' embarassing, but no :(
<humphreybc> righto moving on then
<humphreybc> [TOPIC] Font colours review
<MootBot> New Topic:  Font colours review
<humphreybc> I think they look good how they are.
<godbyk> We should consider how they'll look if printed, too.  (They may look fine, I haven't really looked yet.)
<humphreybc> Black for chapter headings, maroon for section headings, browny/gold for subsections.
<humphreybc> Ah true
<humphreybc> I might print off a few pages to test it out
<humphreybc> although what's it set to atm? A4 or US Letter?
<godbyk> Letter still.
<brunobernardino> I like the font colors atm
<brunobernardino> make it A4, it's better, right?
<humphreybc> Yeah that's coming up on the agenda
<brunobernardino> ok
<godbyk> Also, it might be good to pick colors from the selected cover page, but I don't think it's required.
<humphreybc> [VOTE] Font colours, stay the same.
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Font colours, stay the same..
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<ubuntujenkins> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from ubuntujenkins. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<godbyk> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from godbyk. 1 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 1
<humphreybc> The selected title page artist can tweak their colours to match ours
<humphreybc> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from humphreybc. 2 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 2
<brunobernardino> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from brunobernardino. 3 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 3
<dutchie> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from dutchie. 4 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 4
<waltmenz> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from waltmenz. 5 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 5
<brunobernardino> humphreybc: yup
<humphreybc> final call for vote
<brunobernardino> fenre: you there? vote now! :)
<humphreybc> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 5 for, 0 against. 1 abstained. Total: 5
<brunobernardino> I think that's a wrap. We're decreasing on number of votes :|
<humphreybc> We are.
<humphreybc> But we need to decide on a couple more things
<humphreybc> I'll combine them all :)
<brunobernardino> hmm, it's getting "late" for me also. how many more topics?
<humphreybc> It's 1:20am here
<humphreybc> and I have class in under 8 hours
<brunobernardino> it's 12:20 here, I gotta prepare lunch :)
<humphreybc> [TOPIC] Page Size - A4? Screenshot resolution? Are we still on track?
<MootBot> New Topic:  Page Size - A4? Screenshot resolution? Are we still on track?
<brunobernardino> I'm UTC :)
<humphreybc> I just condensed the important things
<godbyk> I think the paper size should depend on the language.
<humphreybc> bruno that's handy
<godbyk> Since we're doing translations anyway.
<humphreybc> That makes sense
<humphreybc> Can we automate that?
<brunobernardino> Page Size - A4, Screenshot 800x600, Yes.
<godbyk> re: screenshot resolution, what are our options?
<humphreybc> 800x600 would look crap when printed at a high dpi though
<fenre> sorry, humphreybc. Was temp afk
<brunobernardino> well, but for someone not wanting to spend too much ink
<humphreybc> Well we can't have it too high that they're too large in file size, but they can't be too low that they are unreadable when printed.
<godbyk> Any screenshots will look crappy if they're scaled badly.  There's no helping that, really.
<humphreybc> I think we'll have to do some testing
<dutchie> It'd be fairly easy to automate if it was possible to specify on the cli what the paper size is
<brunobernardino> so 1024x768 probably is the most suitable
<brunobernardino> not too big, not too small
<humphreybc> and .png
<dutchie> I mean, I can sed it, but there should be a better way
<brunobernardino> yes, png definately!
<godbyk> dutchie: do you know how the translations are getting pulled back in to LaTeX?
<godbyk> we can probably use that same method to set the paper size and language for babel.
<dutchie> po4a generates a translated main.tex file
<godbyk> we should also look at using csquotes or similar to handle language-specific quotation styles.
<godbyk> dutchie: cool.  we can handle the paper size and whatnot from there, then.
 * humphreybc lets the tech folks talk :P
<brunobernardino> heh
<dutchie> so, you run po4a, and it makes say fr/main.tex
<humphreybc> neat. So that's those two - now, "Are we on track?"
<humphreybc> Three weeks till alpha.
<humphreybc> We're supposed to have all content in place by then, bar screenshots
<godbyk> no clue, I'm just writing LaTeX code. :-)
<humphreybc> heh
<brunobernardino> lol
<humphreybc> dutchie?
<brunobernardino> I'm just translating, and I have a question about that after we finish this topic
<dutchie> translations seem to be continuing apace
<humphreybc> and what about main content
<humphreybc> ?
<humphreybc> We seem to be missing a fair chunk
<humphreybc> Although 3 weeks...
<humphreybc> It's only been 2 weeks since we actually really started
<dutchie> I'm not sure
<brunobernardino> I do believe there's some text missing.
<humphreybc> So I think we should be able to make it
<dutchie> I've always said it'll be close :)
<humphreybc> There is a *lot* of text missing
<brunobernardino> yes, it's not impossible
<humphreybc> We've got ages till beta anyway
<humphreybc> and then another 6 weeks after that to RC
<humphreybc> so we should be okay
<humphreybc> sweet.
<humphreybc> [TOPIC] Questions and Feedback
<MootBot> New Topic:  Questions and Feedback
<humphreybc> Okay go for it guys
<godbyk> I have a few questions:
<godbyk> Do we want to have a list of acronyms?
<godbyk> Do we want a glossary?
<brunobernardino> I was just an euphemism
<brunobernardino> it*
<godbyk> (I added an index the other day, but we'll need to add more stuff to it and decide what should be indexed.)
<godbyk> AFAIK, we're not required to use (R) and TM, so why are we?  (They look ugly. :-))
<brunobernardino> I'd like to know if what happened about a week ago with the translations is likely to happen again (most of them "kaput")
<godbyk> Are there any 'how do I..?' questions from authors related to LaTeX that I can help answer?
<dutchie> brunobernardino: I don't think so
<godbyk> .. I think that's most of the questions I had on my list. :-)
<humphreybc> "Do we want to have a list of acronyms" - I don't think so. We can just try and explain them in brackets when each one is encountered for the first time. Otherwise we'll have a tonne of crap at the end of the manual: credits, glossary, index, acronym list etc etc
<humphreybc> "Do we want a glossary" - most definitely. Many *nix terms will be new to users, so we should have a glossary.
<humphreybc> dutchie what was the cause of the translation meltdown?
<thorwil> what about acronyms in the glossary? :)
<humphreybc> thorwil yeah that would make sense, for particularly difficult ones I guess.
<dutchie> humphreybc: launchpad not importing the old ones
<humphreybc> ah ha
<dutchie> should be fixed now
<dutchie> or, it will be when I next update them
<humphreybc> nice
<humphreybc> well
<humphreybc> I guess that's it
<fenre> all right :)
<godbyk> cool
<dutchie> blimey, another 90 minute meeting
<thorwil> indentation and title page have been discussed?
<humphreybc> I'll put up a summary on the wiki with vote results and stuff that will now change due to this meeting, as well as email the mailing list the changes :)
<humphreybc> dutchie: god i know!
<dutchie> next meeting?
<dutchie> we going for 2000 UTC on saturday?
<humphreybc> indentation - not really. Title page, no, we'll just keep going how we are going with feedback on the wiki page and proposals
<humphreybc> yeah we'll change to 2000 UTC on saturady
<thorwil> ok
<humphreybc> we might have a break for next weekend
<humphreybc> :)
<humphreybc> I better do some work for my exams
<ubuntujenkins> same
<humphreybc> awesome
<thorwil> cool, no conflict with lunch, then :)
<fenre> isn't that what weekdays are for?
 * godbyk is glad he's finally done with classes.  just a dissertation left. :-/
<humphreybc> hahaha
<humphreybc> Righto guys, thanks for coming. Have a good week! I also have some news from the talks with the docs team that I will share tomorrow
<dutchie> good news?
<humphreybc> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 06:28.
<humphreybc> Yep it's good news.
<dutchie> excellent
<humphreybc> night all!
<fenre> night..
<ubuntujenkins> night..
<brunobernardino> hehe godbyk
<brunobernardino> dutchie: ok then, I'll continue translating to Portuguese on monday or tuesday.
<brunobernardino> I'd love to help in so many more ways, but I have no spare time at all, and translating is what I found I could do that would not take me too much time and really be of use anyway
<brunobernardino> these meetings also :)
<brunobernardino> oh, how about the next meeting hour? Have you guys decided on that yet?
<brunobernardino> hello?
<brunobernardino> ok, I g2g, cya later ppl. I'll stay online to check your answers later on
<fenre> I guess it will be posted on the mailing list
<abhi_> anyone here related to Ubuntu Manual Marathi conversion group?
<discoteka> what is marathi?
<abhi_> Marathi is our language.
<abhi_> Maharashtra state of India.
<discoteka> sorry - no here for English :D
<abhi_> ok
<abhi_> :D
<abhi_> exit
<gnomefreak> n/win 1
<Firepowerforfree> That's Firepowerforfreedom
<Firepowerforfree> oi
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-01-11
<kees> mdz, cjwatson: do we have quorum for TB today? it conflicts a bit with the morning's schedule
<SpamapS> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:05. The chair is SpamapS.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<smoser> o/
<hallyn> \o
<SpamapS> [TOPIC] motion to postpone to next week
<MootBot> New Topic:  motion to postpone to next week
<highvoltage> heh
<SpamapS> does anyone have any topics to bring up, or should we postpone to next week?
<SpamapS> (for those not aware, the entire Canonical server team is colocated in Dallas in the US right now)
<SpamapS> If nobody objects, I will end the meeting at 16:15 UTC
<SpamapS> alright then until next week
<SpamapS> [TOPIC] Announce next meeting time and date
<MootBot> New Topic:  Announce next meeting time and date
<SpamapS> Next Meeting: Tue, Jan 18 2011 16:00 UTC
<SpamapS> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:16.
<kees> okay, tech board located to nowish...
<mdz> o/
<mdz> Keybuk, ayt?
<Keybuk> I am ;-)
<kees> ah-ha!
<Keybuk> *mutters about people changing the meeting time without any announcement*
<mdz> Keybuk, sorry, I suggested it without realizing that you weren't here in Dallas
<kees> sorry! my bad :(
<mdz> I thought I just hadn't come across you yet :-)
<kees> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 14:35. The chair is kees.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<cjwatson> we were just talking through the extras versioning question here
<kees> our agenda is actually empty, excepting the Permissions meeting which will happen immediately after it
<cjwatson> it's largely a bikeshed, but I think we settled on the form 2.1-1extras10.10.1
<kees> -0extras
<cjwatson> er, yes
<kees> [topic] extras versioning
<MootBot> New Topic:  extras versioning
<kees> $upstream-0extras$M.$m.$serial
<kees> [topic] action review
<MootBot> New Topic:  action review
<Keybuk> mdz: your homeland has stolen my passport
<kees> uhm, actions happened, based on review with cjwatson earlier in the day
<kees> [topic] Reorganizing drivers/owners/release managers permissions in Launchpad
<MootBot> New Topic:  Reorganizing drivers/owners/release managers permissions in Launchpad
<kees> okay, now caught up.
<kees> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LaunchpadPermissions
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LaunchpadPermissions
<cjwatson> my apologies for not having written up last time's minutes; I shall try to catch up ... that includes the LP stakeholder thing
<mdz> - Set the release manager to ubuntu-release
<mdz> - Review ubuntu-drivers membership and make sure it includes (only) people who need to manage blueprints
<mdz> - Review ubuntu-release membership and make sure it includes (only) people who
<mdz> - Set the owner/maintainer to techboard
<mdz> that's my current action lits
<mdz> list
<mdz> - announce something to ubuntu-devel-announce
<cjwatson> approving nominations requires the release manager slot
<cjwatson> the platform QA team need to be able to do this (I'm told)
<cjwatson> which raises the question of whether we should (a) add platform QA to ubuntu-release (b) pick a different team as release manager (which I think would be counterintuitive)
<cjwatson> I would prefer to consult with Kate before doing (a)
<kees> Keybuk: you're next to chair in two weeks. is that okay with you?
<Keybuk> goddamnit, I'm only on a *Conference Call* with cjwatson and I'm already sneezing
<kees> heh
<Keybuk> kees: yup, might as well get used to the pain - 7am isn't it? :p
<kees> yup. though now we have 1/3rd of us in that TZ so maybe we can reschedule it. :)
<kees> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 14:55.
<kees> driver meeting forked!
<Keybuk> haha, I like the sound of that
<Keybuk> though 7am would be better that particular week, since it's before I'd be at work
<Keybuk> as that tuesday is going to be induction induction induction
<ebroder> hehe. Google takes their indoctrination^Winduction very seriously, too
<Keybuk> it could be worse
<Keybuk> if I were joining Apple, I'd be signing up to the organ donor register that day and having a full medical to determine compatibility
<nigelb> Keybuk: Apple wants you to do donate brains when you quit? ;)
<Keybuk> pancreas, liver, ...
<nigelb> hehe
<Keybuk> steve needs the parts!
<nigelb> lol
<mdz> - file bug about bug supervisor not being able to set bug reporting guidelines for Ubuntu as a whole (not just packages)
<pleia2> Keybuk: (soon to be) welcome to san francisco!
<mdz> - file bug about the fact that uploaders cannot target bugs to series
<mdz> IBugNomination.CanApprove
<mdz> the above is related to bug 451390
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 451390 in Launchpad itself "limited upload rights no longer give series nomination accept/decline rights" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/451390
<kees> pitti: you've been nominated to "- file bug about the fact that uploaders cannot target bugs to series (IBugNomination.CanApprove)"
<kees> bdmurray: you've been nominated to "- file bug about bug supervisor not being able to set bug reporting guidelines for Ubuntu as a whole (not just packages)"
<Keybuk> thanks all
<cprofitt> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 17:59. The chair is cprofitt.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<cprofitt> Hello all
<cprofitt> The Ubuntu Beginners Team Meeting is now live
<nhandler> o/
<cprofitt> please say here if you are present for the UBT meeting
<UndiFineD> o/
<nhandler> here
<AndrewMC> here
<UndiFineD> here
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-01-12
<hajour> here
<phillw> here
<cprofitt> good showing this time... thanks for making it everyone
<cprofitt> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/Meetings#preview
<cprofitt> topics are there
<egossett> here
<aveilleux> here
<cprofitt> I want to take some time to discuss Focus Groups
<cprofitt> [topic] focus groups
<MootBot> New Topic:  focus groups
<cprofitt> as there have been some mis-perceptions about them
<nhandler> b/39
<cprofitt> Focus Groups are for practical purposes umbrellas
<cprofitt> they have a lead person who coordinates that group
<cprofitt> they will contain sub-groups or interest areas...
<cprofitt> or experts in a certain area that is under that group
<cprofitt> to give two examples...
<cprofitt> lubuntu is a sub-area under support...
<cprofitt> accessibility is a sub-area under support and development
<phillw> cprofitt: that sounds fantastic to me.
<cprofitt> we used to form Focus Groups for each interest area, but due to passing interests and people moving on to dedicate themselves to other things we have a very fluid state with focus groups
<cprofitt> we do not want to have that amount of 'churn' for new people trying to find their way
<cprofitt> in rare cases we may form a sep. FG -- if there is enough interest... and large enough group of people... and an existing team that requests that FG to be created
<cprofitt> note it will take all three of those to happen
<cprofitt> any questions?
<nhandler> Nope
<phillw> cprofitt: thanks for clearing it all up.
<UndiFineD> I have taken the liberty to register #ubuntu-beginners-accessibility
<nhandler> Hmm...That is a good question. Do we actually want IRC channels for the sub-areas?
<nhandler> UndiFineD: Can you make UBTCouncil a founder in there?
<UndiFineD> I noticed people saying such has their interest, now people could go to #ubuntu-accessibility or we could discuss to have them pass this channel first
<UndiFineD> nhandler: I would be happy to do so
<nhandler> Yes, but if it is part of the support fg, it might make sense to use that IRC channel (or the accessibility team channel)
 * Timo_ is here as well
<UndiFineD> maybe, it was just a thought, and we could discuss it outside the meeting
<cprofitt> nhandler: we can take that off-line
<cprofitt> sorry, but I was typing in the wrong channel
<cprofitt> irris fail
<UndiFineD> heh
<cprofitt> in conjunction with that we have to re-define mentors
<cprofitt> to help them learn about the team, the process and the skills needed to contribute to that team
<cprofitt> becoming a mentor will require some work
<UndiFineD> how about some classes ?
 * phillw back...
<cprofitt> so mentors are dedicated to a specific are of knowledge... they will fall under a specific FG
<cprofitt> we then need people who will assist people with becoming UBT members...
<cprofitt> in the past those folks were called mentors... but to avoid confusion we need a new name
 * phillw waves hand....
<cprofitt> one group (mentors) are subject experts
<cprofitt> the other group are more guides
<ibuclaw> cprofitt, in the past they were called 'masters', no? :)
<cprofitt> we also called them masters in the distant past in a galazy far far away
<UndiFineD> :D
<cprofitt> masters and padawan
<cprofitt> we could revert to that term...
<cprofitt> we just need to have two different terms... to avoid confusion
<cprofitt> becoming a mentor will involve much more proof that you are a subject expert
<cprofitt> [VOTE]use the term master to describe UBT guides
<MootBot> Please vote on: use the term master to describe UBT guides.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<phillw> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from phillw. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<MootBot> Private +1 vote received. 2 for, 0 against, 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<UndiFineD> +1
<egossett> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from egossett. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<MootBot> +1 received from UndiFineD. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<IAmNotThatGuy> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from IAmNotThatGuy. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
<cprofitt> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from cprofitt. 6 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 6
<Timo_> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from Timo_. 7 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 7
<cprofitt> any more votes?
<hajour> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from hajour. 8 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 8
<IAmNotThatGuy> cprofitt, only UBT members can vote right?
<cprofitt> IAmNotThatGuy: yes
<egossett> sorry
<hajour> sorry
<cprofitt> soon IAmNotThatGuy soon
<IAmNotThatGuy> no worries egossett
<cprofitt> be patient padawan
<cprofitt> :-
<cprofitt> )
<egossett> kk
<IAmNotThatGuy> (:
<cprofitt> last call for votes
<cprofitt> [endvote]
<MootBot> Final result is 8 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 8
<phillw> cprofitt: do you want to carry out the vote after the election of the new padawans, as it does directly affect them?
<cprofitt> [agreed]guides will now be called Masters
<MootBot> AGREED received: guides will now be called Masters
<cprofitt> anyone want to volunteer to update our wiki?
<phillw> cprofitt: I'll do it.
<cprofitt> some padawan who wants to work with the doc team?
<aveilleux> I have to be right back, I need to reboot to fix some permissions
<cprofitt> [action] phillw will update wiki with master information
<MootBot> ACTION received:  phillw will update wiki with master information
<UndiFineD> that would be me
<cprofitt> thanks phillw
<cprofitt> phillw: can you let UndiFineD do it?
<cprofitt> [action] UndiFineD will update the wiki with information about Masters
<MootBot> ACTION received:  UndiFineD will update the wiki with information about Masters
<cprofitt> there we go
<UndiFineD> :)
<cprofitt> [TOPIC] New Members Announcement
<MootBot> New Topic:  New Members Announcement
<phillw> cprofitt:  UndiFineD if you want to do it, be my guest.
<cprofitt> as was agreed to last meeting the council is now responsible for voting on new UBT members
<cprofitt> there are several that have been put before the council
<cprofitt> but I want everyone to understand the process
<cprofitt> a padawan or their master can put them forward to the council
<cprofitt> the padawan should have testimonials on their wiki
<cprofitt> the padawan is encouraged to either be present at the council meeting or send the council an email with their statement of why they feel they are ready
<cprofitt> the council, and I apologize for this, has not determined a meeting date/time
<cprofitt> but we are looking at doing a regular meeting...
<cprofitt> and we will meet soon about the people we have in the que now
<cprofitt> I apologize to them for the delay
<cprofitt> also... I want to make everyone aware of the current que of folks seeking masters....
<cprofitt> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/Membership
<cprofitt> we have 15 people looking for help on joining the BT.
<cprofitt> we need to get these folks paired up...
<ibuclaw> cprofitt, that is quite a queue
<cprofitt> we also need to get the Masters list updated so masters are under their TZ
<cprofitt> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/Mentors
<UndiFineD> which is why I suggested doing classes on becoming a master
<cprofitt> UndiFineD: good suggestion... we can look at doing that...
<phillw> cprofitt: with no disrespect to the council, and I know full well you are up to your collective eyeballs in work. We do really need to shift our padawans off and elect mentors. There is a 'log-jam'.
<cprofitt> can you send an email to the list with that suggestion and some details on how we would run that?
<cprofitt> masters you mean phillw ?
<cprofitt> or mentors?
<aveilleux> I'm sorry, I'm back
<ibuclaw> UndiFineD, The first rule of becoming a master is the First rule of becoming a master. :~)
<UndiFineD> hmmm ibuclaw must be a jedi
<IAmNotThatGuy> inetpro, (:
<IAmNotThatGuy> erm tab fails )':
<ibuclaw> The rest is simply being there to answer any questions they may have about team internal processes.
<cprofitt> ok... phillw did you mean log jam for masters or mentors?
 * pedro3005 is here :P
<cprofitt> hey pedro3005
 * CensoredBiscuit arrived late and feels lost
<phillw> cprofitt: bioterror is a mentor yet to be elected, as for masters the faster we get them approved, the sooner we can adopt the ones waiting. It is heartbreaking to hear them plea for a mentor :'(
<cprofitt> CensoredBiscuit: we will post the minnutes after the meeting
<pedro3005> cprofitt, I put my mentees for membership I think
<pedro3005> well at least I added it on the meeting table
<cprofitt> phillw: well the folks on that list are looking for masters... not mentors
<cprofitt> I am aware of bioterror and the issue has been raised with the council
<IAmNotThatGuy> I ll br gone in 10 mins. powercut :'(
<ibuclaw> cprofitt, so that entire page needs moving and a new table put in it's place?
<cprofitt> ibuclaw: the table needs to be renamed at the top
<cprofitt> UndiFineD: is working on it
<UndiFineD> after the meeting
<cprofitt> we then will need a new table for mentors -- which we have zero of right now
<ibuclaw> I mean
<ibuclaw> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/Mentors
<cprofitt> and a list of people looking to be made mentors
<ibuclaw> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/Masters
<UndiFineD> yes
<cprofitt> ibuclaw: the mentors page can have two tables on it...
<ibuclaw> kk
<cprofitt> mentors and masters... with some explanation as to the difference
<pedro3005> when are you guys going to look at the people up for membership?
<cprofitt> pedro3005: We are working on that as I speak
<cprofitt> literally
<pedro3005> ok, great
<cprofitt> the council will be meeting immediately following this meeting to consider those in the que
<cprofitt> ok... there are no other topics
<cprofitt> any other last minute business?
<nhandler> o/
<cprofitt> yes nhandler
<phillw> cprofitt: I know that pedro3005 also has a list of people wanting to be a padawan, as does at least one other mentor. We need the queue clearing so we can help.
<nhandler> I just want to remind everyone that we will have a BT Council election probably around the start of March. So think about if you might be interested in running
<cprofitt> nhandler: what positions are up?
<nhandler> cprofitt: You, me, and bodhi. I updated https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-beginners-council/+members
<cprofitt> I thought we served two year terms...
<nhandler> cprofitt: Yeah. You joined in 2009
<cprofitt> but not sure when the last election was...
<nhandler> cprofitt: Half the council joined a year after us in 2010
<nhandler> I also believe we decided not to fill bodhi's seat (so the council will be 5 people) when he expires
<cprofitt> I did... but I thought I was just recently re-elected... but maybe not... I will have to look back
<pedro3005> it's been 2 years since 2009?
<pedro3005> damn!
<cprofitt> ok... no other business?
<phillw> nhandler: if you need an admin person, then I will do it (i.e. put up for election).
<nhandler> cprofitt: You might have. I can't remember if we were up for re-election in the last batch or not
<cprofitt> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 18:36.
<cprofitt> alright... the council will be meeting about the new UBT members
<cprofitt> I hope to update those folks tonight
<cprofitt> thanks everyone.
<phillw> cprofitt: thanks, for chairing the meeting.
<UndiFineD> yep was fun
<egossett> thank you all
<hajour> :)
<Timo_> why is this bot running times like this
<Timo_> 18:36 whilst it is 01:36 in GMT+1
<Timo_> Why doesn't it use GMT or CET?
<ibuclaw> Timo_, in an ideal world, I guess it should follow UTC
<Riddell> https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/Meetings
<Riddell> the agenda hasn't been tidied since the last meeting
<Riddell> but let's start with memberships
<Quintasan> o\
<stalcup> oh my
<Riddell> stalcup: you want to be a kubuntu member again?
<stalcup> Riddell: yes, I have cjilled for over a year now and as of 4.5.5 I'm ready to be back
<stalcup> chilled*
<Riddell> you still love us?
<stalcup> with all my heart <3
 * Quintasan hugs stalcup
<highvoltage> it's really hard not to love the kubuntu team
<Riddell> stalcup: tell us a bit about yourself and what you want to do in Kubuntu?
<Riddell> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SteveStalcup
<stalcup> thanks Riddell
<rgreening> 'ello Riddel
<rgreening> et al
<rgreening> :)
<stalcup> I've been an ubuntu/kubuntu user for over 5 years now
<stalcup> I started contributing to Kubuntu during 8.04 cycl
 * rgreening friendly punches stalcup in the arm :)
<stalcup> hehe ,'lo rgreening
<stalcup> I have also helped with several release updaates
<JontheEchidna> stalcup was also a member of the original Kubuntu Ninjas dreamteam.
<stalcup> I would like to do that again
<Riddell> he's the admin of ~kubuntu-ninjas no less
<stalcup> yep, thoses weree the days
<stalcup> Riddell: odd eh?
<stalcup> but basicly, I miss you guys (and I need less sleep)
<stalcup> oh, and I'm a MOTU
 * rgreening misses stalcup also  .. haha
<Riddell> stalcup: how do you rate your own packaging skills?  how do you think you managed with 4.5.5 for example?
<Quintasan> maemologger: I thought we were supposed to slap +1 sticker on every item on agenda for you :P
<stalcup> well, I was slower and more dileberate - but thats good
<stalcup> its really like riding a bike
<stalcup> I really enjoyed packaging 4.5.5
<Riddell> stalcup: actually I thought you were surprisingly fast, did you do them one at a time or in parallel, what checks did you do at the end of compiling to make sure it was ok?
<Quintasan> :O
<stalcup> well, that was the slow part
<stalcup> I didnt know about the meta package - that did not help me
<Riddell> it can be a blocker right enough
<rgreening> stalcup: since the last time you were here and active, what do you see as needing to change (if anything) to make us better at what we do?
<rgreening> :P
<maemologger> More phononess
<maemologger> Obviously :P
<rgreening> maemologger != stalcup :)
<maemologger> :P
<stalcup> I would like to see moer coordiation via the mailing list, and more karma for JontheEchidna
<Quintasan> :D
<JontheEchidna> :D
<stalcup> sorry, my hands are shaking :s
<rgreening> lol
<Riddell> mailing lists are a weak point for me
<rgreening> np stalcup :)
<Riddell> stalcup: you got the version numbers wrong on some packages in 4.5.5, how can that be prevented in future?
<stalcup> since my job is afk, email is about the only commnication I have
<stalcup> yes, I already have a plan for this
<stalcup> I printed out the dep chaart, and make a checklist for every package
<stalcup> the checklist includes complete/deb check
<stalcup> I plan on makeing a wiki page of reminders, or recipies
<Riddell> stalcup: do you think you understand what's expected of members with respect to the code of conduct?
<stalcup> 100% understand
<Riddell> any other questions anyone?
<stalcup> I've really learned alot about who I am, and how others see me, and how what I say or do impacts may people
<stalcup> It has been a very humbling year
<neversfelde> ok
<rgreening> +1 from me based on above
<JontheEchidna> +1
<maemologger> +1
<neversfelde> +1
<Riddell> +1 too
<stalcup> whoo hoo! <3 to all!
<rgreening> yay stalcup :P
<Riddell> welcome back stalcup
<Quintasan> \o/
<rgreening> welcome back dooooooooooooooooood
<stalcup> thank you all!
 * Quintasan highfives stalcup
 * stalcup does backflips and ^5 Quintasan 
<Quintasan> stalcup: you got some WB karma :P
<Riddell> yofel_n900: are you around?
 * shadeslayer hugs stalcup and gives him some koffee
<yofel> now
<stalcup> thanks shadeslayer
<Quintasan> stalcup: have some whiskey to stop the shaking :D
<yofel> (came home a minute ago...)
<stalcup> no joke
<Riddell> https://wiki.kubuntu.org/PhilipMuskovac
<Riddell> yofel: who are you and why do you want to be a kubuntu member?
<neversfelde> stalcup: welcome back. I was not very happy about some posts you made in the past and my +1 is based about what you said about coc
<stalcup> thanks neversfelde
<yofel> Hi folks, I'm Philip Muskovac, 24, and I've been a linux user for around 4 years, and a k/ubuntu user for 3 years now
<yofel> I started contributing to ubuntu during intrepid, and I started testing and giving support for Kubuntu again since karmic
<JackyAlcine> Question: is this an open meeting?
<stalcup> JackyAlcine: yes
<Riddell> yofel: how did you learn about packaging?
<JackyAlcine> stalcup: I didn't want to interrupt. Thanks.
<yofel> I've mostly learned it first by being part in the bugsquad and trying to fix simple bugs, later started building my own daily packages and started helping with kubuntu packages after that
<Riddell> "Get into iso testing" that's something I've found hard to keep people enthused about
<yofel> I've been giving user support on IRC too when I had time for it and helped setting up the KDE daily builds
<Quintasan> >when I had time
<Riddell> it takes a lot of time then when a bug is found people feel their time has been wasted (which is obviously not true)
<Quintasan> This makes you look like you have a lot of time yofel :))
<Riddell> yofel: based on bugsquad work, how is Kubuntu doing with managing the level of bugs we have reported?
<yofel> Riddell: kubuntu is doing rather well compared to the overall ubuntu project, that we report KDE bugs directly upstream helps a lot there
<yofel> Quintasan: really? I wish I had more time, but my schedule isn't that stable
<yofel> so far I've really enjoyed helping with the 4.6 packaging, learned that I'll have to learn more about library packaging though, which I'm doing currently
<Riddell> nobody else got questions?
<maemologger> No
<neversfelde> yofel: "Make Kubuntu easier to use for everyone. " any more details about this?
<yofel> neversfelde: mostly trying to ensure better Q/A on the things a user sees first, since I found it esp. hard to install the proprietary drivers on my dads pc which should go pretty easily normally
<Quintasan> I would like to say that yofel (and shadeslayer) are a big help in Project Neon, I would be able to do it myself probably but it would take MUCH more time. If he gets this many thing done in his free time the he is a very effective worker :)
<neversfelde> yofel: what do you think about our default plasma desktop with folderview and the microblogging plasma-widget, it's what the user sees first?
<yofel> neversfelde: I find that pretty good, you still have access to the desktop folder while using plasma, the microblogging widget is something I don't use, but that's personal (looks good though)
<neversfelde> yofel: really? I do not like it :)
<neversfelde> kk, no more questions
<Riddell> +1 from me for useful and very competant contributions
<maemologger> What are we voting on btw?
<Riddell> membership for yofel
<neversfelde> +1 from me for the good work so far
<JontheEchidna> +1
<maemologger> +1 then
<Quintasan> not council but +1 :)
<Riddell> welcome in yofel
<neversfelde> welcome yofel
 * Quintasan throws confetti at yofel
<yofel> hurrray, now I can stop shaking.. *phew*
<shadeslayer> hahaha :D
 * shadeslayer hands out koffee to yofel
<maemologger> Check ur mail
<yofel> thanks :D
<rgreening> +1
<rgreening> lol
<rgreening> was distracted
<rgreening> by $wrk
<rgreening> :)
<rgreening> welcome
 * yofel hugs maemologger
<yofel> thanks rgreening
<Riddell> now Quintasan wants into kubuntu-dev
 * Quintasan hands whisKey to yofel
<Quintasan> Gulp. :)
<Riddell> which is something for kubuntu-dev to vote on
<Riddell> so we'll probably have to discuss it by e-mail after the meeting
<Riddell> but Quintasan do introduce your work so far and we'll quiz you a bit here
<maemologger> I would prefer maiil
<maemologger> Sorta difficult to intervu from the n900
<Quintasan> So, short introduction, eh? My name is Michal, I'm soon going to turn 18 years old. I have been using Kubuntu since Dapper I think and I started contributing somewhere in the middle of Jaunty cycle.
<Quintasan> I think I started with patching Qt 4 since we had problems with that one at that point it time. It was quite an fast paced adventure for me
<Riddell> in  kde4libs 4:4.5.95-0ubuntu1~maverick1~ppa1  what is the relevance of each part of the version number?
<rgreening> lol
 * rgreening thinks Riddell sometimes forgets and uploads to main :)
<Quintasan> >0ubuntu1 - 0 means no Debian upload of this package and ubuntu1 means this is the first upload in ubuntu, the ~maverick1 is obviously indicating maverick upload and if I am not mistaken decreases the version so 4.5.95-0ubuntu1 upload would replace it
<Riddell> and 4:4.5.95 ?
<Quintasan> 4: is the..epoch I think
<Riddell> yep
<Quintasan> and 4.5.95 is the release version
<Riddell> all good
<Riddell> how important is the Section: field in debian/control ?
<Quintasan> It indicates to which section in the repository the package belongs to
<JontheEchidna> ^if not present, package managers that don't protect against null const char pointers being returned from libapt-pkg will crash
<JontheEchidna> :P
<Quintasan> Oh :D
<JontheEchidna> (Not the answer jr was looking for) :P
<shadeslayer> hahaha
<Riddell> Quintasan: but is it actually useful for anything (this is an opinion question as much as anything)
<Quintasan> Riddell: Hmm, makes easier to find the package we are looking for, and on second but quite unorganised though I think packages in Section: kde could be in Kubuntu seed for example
<Quintasan> The second one is based on the archive reorg so I'm not sure if this would be entirely safe to do :)
<Riddell> when will kdelibs5 have to be changed to kdelibs6 ?
<Quintasan> ... I saw that coming
<Quintasan> If it becomes either soname gets bumped or it becomes binary incompatible I think
<Quintasan> becomes kdelibs6*
<Riddell> yep
<Quintasan> or when KDE 5 get released :)
<JontheEchidna> hopefully both would happen simulaneously
<JontheEchidna> what is the purpose of the kde-sc-dev-latest package?
<Quintasan> JontheEchidna: it pulls all latestest DEVelopment packages required to build KDE modules
<Quintasan> latest*
 * Quintasan 's hands are shaking as well :S
<JontheEchidna> Quintasan: in effect, but technically it breaks the dependency chain if a package with too low a version is present
<Quintasan> JontheEchidna: and by that it makes sure we are not building with an older version of dev files
<JontheEchidna> ok, I'm satisfied with that :)
<Riddell> what is the significance of debian/compat being 7 ?
<Quintasan> Riddell: It means that debian/rules most likely uses things that are COMPATible only with debhelper 7 or newer
<Quintasan> or new source format I think
<Riddell> groovy, I think we'll contrinue the discussion by e-mail
<Riddell> thanks for taking the grilling
 * Quintasan feels roasted
<Quintasan> I could use some seasonings
<Riddell> someone added Project Neon launch to the agenda
<Quintasan> \o
<Riddell> Quintasan: what's the issue?
<shadeslayer> well ... KDE Migrating to Git and cache issues :P
<Quintasan> Riddell: Well, there are no issues at the moment but I wanted to know where are we going to announce it and how should we (Project Neon team) handle anything that might come up. I have already set up a ML and a bug tracker
<Riddell> I think it should be announced as soon as it's next in a working state
<Quintasan> and as shadeslayer mentioned we have a cache issue but if I get to it at the weekend it should get sorted out
<Riddell> is it in a working state?
<shadeslayer> Riddell: id like to not announce it till KDE finishes its migration to Git
<Quintasan> Riddell: it is working but the cache issue makes it change Pager settings from the stable release
<Quintasan> and yeah, shadeslayer just imported split kdebindings
<shadeslayer> that way we can further modularize stuff in neon and get better QA
<shadeslayer> yep
<shadeslayer> ill start working on them tomorrow
<shadeslayer> im also tracking the migration on #kde-git
<Quintasan> Riddell: and where we can announce it? I want to get as many people to use it as possible
<Riddell> Quintasan: kubuntu.org than I can do a story on dot.kde.org
<shadeslayer> kde4libs is scheduled to move to git on the weekend after KDE 4.6 SC is released
<maemologger> Blogs
<maemologger> Forums
 * shadeslayer runs
<maemologger> News sites
<maemologger> Microblogs
<Quintasan> shadeslayer: I can already see the workload
<maemologger> Just bring it up randomly in channels
<shadeslayer> Quintasan: no ... i still dont have a blog entry .. :P
<shadeslayer> maemologger: i do it on #kde-git alot :P
<Quintasan> shadeslayer: That's your problem :P
<shadeslayer> also ... im afraid of this currently : http://stuff.povaddict.com.ar/kdebindings-deps-colors.png
<Riddell> wibble
<Quintasan> Riddell: well, it's everything I really wanted to know, now we can get back to work :)
<Riddell> but really there's no point in putting in the effort you guys have been doing over the last many months if it doesn't get announced and used
<maemologger> Oh you dont want to see what is coming phonon for 4.5 then
<Riddell> someone added Switch from kcm-touchpad to synaptiks
<debfx> yes, I'd like to implement the switch now
<Riddell> go for it
<debfx> which means removing the kcm-touchpad package and adding a transitional package to synaptiks
<stalcup> lol, love the dialogue on that one
<Riddell> debfx: why remove kcm-touchpad ?
<maemologger> It is the broken i presume
<JontheEchidna> yes
<Riddell> well that's easy enough then
<debfx> they conflict with each other
<JontheEchidna> the maintainer disappeared disappointingly early on in its life
<JontheEchidna> synaptiks has an approved MIR iirc
<Riddell> just get the synaptiks package to make the dummy .deb
<Riddell> any other business?
<neversfelde> partitionamanger
<Riddell> didn't we discuss that at the last meeting?
<neversfelde> I forgot th emir and filed it yesterday evening
<neversfelde> sorry for that
<Riddell> hah :)
<neversfelde> bug 701617
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 701617 in partitionmanager (Ubuntu) "[MIR] partitionmanager" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/701617
<Riddell> I'm in a meeting right now about MIRs so maybe they'll get processed faster now
<neversfelde> hehe
<shadeslayer> iirc maemologger was gunning for it
<maemologger> I only +1 from now on if i get money
 * shadeslayer throws some space bucks at maemologger
<Riddell> maemologger: what is coming in phonon 4.5, and when?
<maemologger> Fair enough +1
<JontheEchidna> Riddell: maybe could you poke at QApt? it got pre-promoted 5 months ago but hasn't gotten its security review
<maemologger> Phonon 4.5 is going to be the bet phonon ever and is arriving before june
<Riddell> JontheEchidna: bug no?
<maemologger> That said 4.4.4 is scheduled for jan 19 ;)
<shadeslayer> maemologger: so essentially wont make it into 11.04
<maemologger> No
<shadeslayer> but i guess we can provide it in updates ppa
<Riddell> maemologger: 4.4.4 has magic codec install stuff?
<JontheEchidna> Riddell: bug 609247
<maemologger> Yep
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 609247 in qapt (Ubuntu) "[MIR] qapt" [Wishlist,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/609247
<maemologger> Also rock stable
<maemologger> Also kio streaming ... Hopefully
<Riddell> maemologger: does that mean we should drop some kubuntu-notifier bits?
<maemologger> Yep
<maemologger> All of them in dragon and amarok
<shadeslayer> nice
<Riddell> maemologger: what about the problems dragon has had
<maemologger> Fixed
<maemologger> Though there is now one with vlc
<Riddell> sounds lovely
 * stgraber waves
<stgraber> Edubuntu meeting
<highvoltage> heh
<maemologger> But i expect that we push more bakcend updates before 45
<shadeslayer> maemologger: dont break my precious vlc :P
<shadeslayer> ok lets move to #kubuntu-devel then ? :
<JontheEchidna> yes, we can continue there
<Riddell> yep
<shadeslayer> stgraber: the channel is all yours ;)
<stgraber> thanks shadeslayer :)
<stgraber> Who besides mgariepy and highvoltage is around for the Edubuntu meeting ?
<maemologger> /me leaves cookies for stgraber to givem away for precious edubuntu work :)
<stgraber> yeah !
<highvoltage> yay cookies
<stgraber> thanks maemologger
<highvoltage> I uploaded the weblive chromium experimental plugin, fwiw: https://code.launchpad.net/~edubuntu-dev/+junk/weblive-chromium-plugin
<highvoltage> stgraber: so if you ever feel like adding the required features to vmmanager then we can fix it up nicely :)
<stgraber> cool. I started updating weblive's code to export a JSON interface, it's a bit trickier than expected though so I'll need to work in a VM rather than directly on the production instance
<highvoltage> oh and then there's http://jonathancarter.org/2011/01/10/edubuntu-live-welcome/
<highvoltage> we need some community help there
<stgraber> (as in, I broke the live instance last time I did a code roll-out ;))
<highvoltage> heh, ok :)
<highvoltage> looking at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/Devel/RoadMap - we didn't ever get any feedback on the included apps
<highvoltage> I sent out a mail to edubuntu-devel about it, but we didn't get any response
<highvoltage> I've very lazily been looking at the acire and python-snippets packaging last week
<highvoltage> will most likely get to that this weekend
<stgraber> I'm also planning to include arkose in Edubuntu as soon as the binaries enter natty (currently in the queue)
<highvoltage> stgraber: the additional language page is targeted for alpha 2, I guess you can probably look at that after your holiday?
<stgraber> I'll try to do some of that when I'm in Europe, will be easier to nag Evan and Colin as I'll be on the right timezone ;)
<highvoltage> it would be nice if we could integrate arkose into other services in edubuntu instead of just including in. probably something to look at at next uds
<highvoltage> ah I just thought that colin never sleeps
<highvoltage> the desktop team seems reluctant to move unity from depends to recommends in the ubuntu-desktop package
<stgraber> why ?
<highvoltage> so I guess we should probably just install it by default and make the classic desktop the default
<highvoltage> stgraber: I had a discussion on the ubuntu-desktop irc channel that just didn't go anywhere. the reason was basically that the default interface should be in depends.
<highvoltage> I filed a bug and poked the list/irc channel but didn't get any response on it
 * mhall119 is here now
<highvoltage> and alkisg too, it seems :)
<alkisg> Hi all :)
<highvoltage> mhall119, alkisg any updates from you? mhall119 do you want to mention the name changes stuff for the launcher?
<highvoltage> I don't have anything else to add
<mhall119> so I couldn't get xdg-launcher in Universe because of concerns about the xdg- prefix
 * alkisg doesn't have anything newsworthy
<mhall119> so I'm forking it, the new fork will be called qimo-launcher
<mhall119> and will do only what qimo needs it to do
<mhall119> xdg-launcher can live on as-named or under a new name, with new features and such
<mhall119> I'm working on the version 3 packages for Qimo
<mhall119> including getting the new launcher as part of the session
<mhall119> I'm currently only working on the Xfce session, but will hopefully be starting on the gnome session as soon (school, work and life permitting)
<highvoltage> so will you use the same launcher under xfce and gnome?
<mhall119> I've also just gotten permission to do my school Senior Project on making Qimo 3, so it should be very well documented by the end of Fall 2011
<mhall119> highvoltage: yes
<mhall119> since the launcher is just python, gtk and gmenu
<highvoltage> can it load custom menus? like, would you be able to make menus for it in edubuntu-menueditor?
<mhall119> the top panel will be Xfce or Gnome, depending
<mhall119> highvoltage: you give it an XDG .menu file, and optional sub-menu path from that file
<mhall119> so if you can point edubuntu-menueditor at any xdg .menu file, it should work
<mhall119> I've been testing it against the default applications.menu /Games submenu
<highvoltage> cool. I'll poke mgariepy to look at it once it hits the archives
<mhall119> but for Qimo I'll define a custom qimolauncher.menu
<highvoltage> maybe he can add a note about it to the menueditor documentation as well
<mhall119> cool
<mhall119> other than that, i'm just waiting on debmower so I can start building regular ISOs
<highvoltage> it's pretty much there, if you have an hour available any time on friday let me know and we can walk trhough it
<mgariepy> hey
<highvoltage> not that we actually need an hour, but still
<mhall119> hmmm, friday may not be good, will be out of town and at a clinic
<mhall119> my internet time will be spotty at best
<highvoltage> mhall119: ok, or if you want you can just install it from this ppa and poke me any time: https://launchpad.net/~jonathan/+archive/debm
<highvoltage> I just need to add some preseeding/debconf support to it, then you could use it for daily builds too if you want
<mhall119> cool, I'll grab it and poke around as I have time
<highvoltage> currently you have to just choose 'no' for installing grub during the build process, but other than that it's quite good
<highvoltage> for the qimo build it does, you just have to choose 'qimo' from gdm, otherwise you get a xfce session by default
<highvoltage> but from a previous discussion we had I understand that's the intended behaviour of the qimo-session package in ubuntu
<mhall119> wow, even has a qimo example, handy
<highvoltage> yeah, I tested it with qimo :)
<highvoltage> anything else for this meeting?
<mhall119> correct, qimo-session shouldn't set gdm or plymouth themes
<stgraber> nope
<mhall119> I'll make a qimo-desktop to include and set them
<highvoltage> mhall119: cool, that will be perfect
<mhall119> awesome, thanks highvoltage
<highvoltage> ok, meeting adjourned!
<poolie> hi?
<flacoste> hi!
<NCommander> hi?
<JackyAlcine> :D
<JackyAlcine> oops. Hi!
<poolie> meeting starting soon from https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DistributedDevelopment/20110112
<poolie> hello barry!
<poolie> Ubuntu Distributed Development steering meeting starting soon
<poolie> START
<poolie> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 15:07. The chair is poolie.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<poolie> blood rushes to my head
<poolie> is there anyone here for this meeting that's not in dallas?
<flacoste> me
<poolie> hi, flacoste!
<poolie> [topic] ajmitch to come up with questions/topics for next meeting (re: REVU)
<MootBot> New Topic:  ajmitch to come up with questions/topics for next meeting (re: REVU)
<poolie> don't know if he's here?
<poolie> let's leave it unless/until he shows up
<poolie> [topic] poolie to send bzr rotation pitch to platform mailing list
<MootBot> New Topic:  poolie to send bzr rotation pitch to platform mailing list
<poolie> the idea is to see if someone from the platform would like to work on udd for a while
<poolie> have not sent mail; still should; will talk to people here about it too
<poolie> [topic] Bugs of interest:
<MootBot> New Topic:  Bugs of interest:
<poolie> some bugs are listed in the agenda page
<poolie> we can actually cross quite a few off, which is nice
<poolie> http://pad.lv/556132 - don't drop SSH connection after sending 1GB - now fixed on qastaging; will be fixed on lpnet in  afew days
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://pad.lv/556132 - don't drop SSH connection after sending 1GB - now fixed on qastaging; will be fixed on lpnet in  afew days
<poolie> http://pad.lv/375013 - support committing direct to stacked branches - now fixed in bzr trunk, will be in 2.3/natty
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://pad.lv/375013 - support committing direct to stacked branches - now fixed in bzr trunk, will be in 2.3/natty
<poolie> (watch file support) - james_w and barry to sprint on that at uds-n
<poolie> uds-n happened - did this?
<barry> james and i started looking at it, but i got distracted on other work
<poolie> is there a bug for it?
<barry> there is a bug.  it's so merge-package doesn't need the version #
<poolie> http://pad.lv/295274
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://pad.lv/295274
<barry> not likely to be done any time soon by myself or james
<barry> :(
<jml> poolie: actually, fixed on lpnet in a few _hours_
<barry> s/merge-package/merge-upstream/
<jml> poolie: we're rolling out at 2300Z
<poolie> barry says he won't get to it soon
<poolie> should we shortlist it for bzr?
<poolie> perhaps i should go into that here
<poolie> [topic] bzr bug handling
<MootBot> New Topic:  bzr bug handling
<poolie> we had some discussion at the bzr sprint about the way we queue incoming work
<poolie> at the moment we are not getting the right balance across bzr itself, and other projects in lp
<poolie> we were using the 'udd' project, but that has a lot of bugs that are about the package importer
<poolie> mixed in with our shortlist bugs
 * barry will unassign himself
<poolie> so instead we are going to have some bugs assigned to ~bzr as a short list
<poolie> this will be capped at one page
<poolie> (which is probably 25 bugs)
<poolie> sorry
<poolie> ~canonical-bazaar, not ~bzrc
<poolie> or even ~bzr
<poolie> (Comments welcome)
<jam> I think he meant ~mbp
<poolie> the mechanism is a bit arbitrary
<poolie> but this seems worth a try
<barry> "constraint not satisfied"
<poolie> said the melancholy masochist
<poolie> ok next
<poolie> https://launchpad.net/bugs/653307
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 653307 in Ubuntu Distributed Development "Import fails with missing referenced chk root keys" [Critical,In progress]
<poolie> back to the bugs
<poolie> so we talked about one similar to this
<poolie> may be fixed?
<spiv> This one appears to be an old problem, and we plan to just delete the affected imports
<spiv> I should grab james_w here in dallas and just get it done
<poolie> barry asks, what's the cause?
<highvoltage> .wub 17
<poolie> so, probably not fixed, but underway
<poolie> anything else to say on that bug?
<spiv> I don't think so.
<poolie> btw i think in future meetings we can probably mostly scan the bugs assigned to ~canonical-bazaar and its members (
<poolie> our shortlist)
<poolie> i need to setup an api client to make a single page showing all of them
<poolie> some won't be relevant
<poolie> ok, how about https://bugs.launchpad.net/bzr/+bug/603395
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 603395 in Bazaar "bzr commit in a heavyweight checkout does not propagate new tags" [High,In progress]
<poolie> also still in progress, or fixed recently?
<spiv> Still in progress, but close!  Fixed this week I hope.  I intend to get back to landing it after this meeting :)
<poolie> hooray
<poolie> https://launchpad.net/bugs/653832
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 653832 in Ubuntu Distributed Development "Import fails with "trying to import version ... again"" [High,Triaged]
<poolie> ok, that's on the shortlist and doesn't seem to have been investigated yet
<poolie> we'll leave it there
<poolie> https://launchpad.net/bugs/499684
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 499684 in bzr-builddeb "Interface to dpkg-buildpackage inconsistent and not well documented" [High,Triaged]
<poolie> probably true :)
<poolie> mm
<poolie> the bug makes sense
<poolie> is it high priority?
<barry> note that i am working on a separate sphinx docs to get away from editing the wiki, and to merge in /usr/share/doc/bzr-builddeb/user_manual
<barry> i will at least add this to my doc branch, which might be enough to close the bug ;)
<barry> so i suppose i should assign it to myself
<poolie> or at least to suppress it
<poolie> thanks barry
<poolie> http://pad.lv/608450
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://pad.lv/608450
<poolie> come on
<poolie> "can't use run in recipes"
<poolie> seems to be closed as invalid
<poolie> let's leave sleeping dogs lie for now
<poolie> ok that's the end of the hot bugs list
<poolie> [topic] new hot bug nominations?
<MootBot> New Topic:  new hot bug nominations?
<poolie> i think going over the short list is good because we get to be happy about ones that are fixed and be reminded of those that aren't
<poolie> however obviously (to me) we can't discuss every udd bug every week
<poolie> ok, no objections, so i'll go on
<poolie> [topic] bzr plan 2011
<MootBot> New Topic:  bzr plan 2011
<poolie> https://wiki.canonical.com/Bazaar/Plan/2011#preview
<poolie> internal only now, sorry
<poolie> ah, i think everyone at the rally has seen (version of) it, so perhaps i should just talk to francis about it later
<barry> yep, it looked good
<poolie> it mostly needs
<poolie> - making things more specific as in "we'll know we're done when"
<barry> well, "good" in the sense of relatively complete list of things we all hope will get done eventually ;)
<poolie> - getting rough size estimates
<poolie> - sorting
<poolie> - perhaps working out how far down the list we're likely to get at our current velocity
<poolie> during 2011
<poolie> [topic] any other business
<MootBot> New Topic:  any other business
<barry> poolie: can we post this publicly after you have your resource and planning meetings, i.e. for udd meeting in 2 weeks?
<poolie> i think so
<barry> cool, thanks
 * poolie post bzr 2011 plans - poolie
<poolie> [action] post bzr 2011 plans - poolie
<MootBot> ACTION received:  post bzr 2011 plans - poolie
<poolie> flacoste, anything from you?
<flacoste> nope
<flacoste> i need to look at the pag ethoguhe
<poolie> i hear they serve an excellent Pag Ethoguhe in Budapest :)
<poolie> ok, thanks everyone
<poolie> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 15:31.
<barry> poolie, thanks so much for running it!
<poolie> np, thanks for your help
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-01-13
 * charlie-tca waves
<charlie-tca> Okay, who is here for the Xubuntu Community Meeting?
<beardygnome> hi, sorry i'm late
<beardygnome> i am
<charlie-tca> not late yet
<charlie-tca> I am still looking for people who should be here...
<charlie-tca> Canonical is down in Dallas, but we should be be around
<mr_pouit> \o (phone, sorry)
<charlie-tca> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 13:06. The chair is charlie-tca.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<charlie-tca> I think we should start this meeting.
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] The agenda is available for everyone at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings
<MootBot> New Topic:  The agenda is available for everyone at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings
<charlie-tca> hm, the meeting bot is an hour off today
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Old business
<MootBot> New Topic:  Old business
<charlie-tca> first we have updates for http://xubuntu.org
<charlie-tca> cody-somerville has not gotten a message back to pleia2 yet, and that is holding up action
<beardygnome> is cody-somerville here?
<charlie-tca> next, we have the discussion started on the ML for default applications in Natty
<charlie-tca> He is probably in Dallas, but I don't know for sure
<charlie-tca> He is not answering today
<charlie-tca> mr_pouit: we seem to have generated quite a discussion
<charlie-tca> My own thoughts are that if chrome is updating monthly, maybe it is still beta even if they are not calling it that.
<charlie-tca> and I would then recommend we stay with firefox
<mr_pouit> it seems to be rather stable though
<charlie-tca> Your choice
<beardygnome> even though i prefer chromium, i'm happy with that decision for the default
<charlie-tca> I do not want applications changed to give us a lower memory footprint versus usability.
<mr_pouit> well, let's wait for a consensus on the ml, I'm happy with both (either firefox or chormium)
<beardygnome> chrome updates are every 6 weeks or so and they are bumping up the version numbers rapidly
<charlie-tca> good enough.
<charlie-tca> Anyone else had a chance to test lightdm?
<beardygnome> is it packaged for maverick?
<charlie-tca> mr_pouit: also, claws-mail really is not as easy to setup as thunderbird, yet
<charlie-tca> beardygnome: no, I don't believe it is
<charlie-tca> and the ppa requires a lot of work to get it installed
<mr_pouit> I never tested it, but I heard it has a 'weird' ui ;>
<charlie-tca> claws-mail?
<mr_pouit> yeah
<charlie-tca> it is difficult to set up compared to thunderbird and evolution
<mr_pouit> okay
<charlie-tca> With a good possiblity of Ubuntu moving to Thunderbird in O, I think we are in a good position keeping it
<beardygnome> i agree
<charlie-tca> anything else on default apps?
<charlie-tca> midori just isn't ready until we can transfer the bookmarks
<charlie-tca> Next, we have take the discussion about default launchers to the ML
<charlie-tca> I don't remember if this got started or not?
<charlie-tca> I guess I should take an action for it, then
<charlie-tca> [ACTION] take the discussion about default launchers to the ML
<MootBot> ACTION received:  take the discussion about default launchers to the ML
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Team updates
<MootBot> New Topic:  Team updates
<charlie-tca> mr_pouit for packaging and development updates?
<charlie-tca> mr_pouit: Xfce4.8 is scheduled for release this Sunday
<mr_pouit> yeah
<charlie-tca> any updates on the rest?
<mr_pouit> not much activity this week for packaging :>
<mr_pouit> uploaded xfce4-power-manager 1.0.3
<charlie-tca> I would be surprised if there was, with that comingup
<mr_pouit> and patched xfce4-session to lock the screen on suspend/hibernate
<mr_pouit> I think that's all
<charlie-tca> Great! we been looking forward to the lock
<charlie-tca> thank you, mr_pouit
<charlie-tca> Bug Triage & Testing
<charlie-tca> We have triaged about 70 bugs this week
<mr_pouit> yay, abiword spam attack in my mailbox :P
<charlie-tca> I went through all the 10.04 bugs, and we don't actually have any critical to the release
<charlie-tca> yup, I did that, too, huh?
<charlie-tca> We do have broken images again.
<charlie-tca> libwebkit is replaced by libwebkitgtk, I think it is?
<charlie-tca> Do we fix that?
<mr_pouit> I think it will be fixed "automagically" (i.e. we don't depend on webkit directly, so I guess it's ok)
<charlie-tca> I will need to get in touch with the documentation person, so we get lucid docs done
<charlie-tca> Okay, I hope so. Ubuntu live cd doesn't have the error today, so maybe we will be okay tomorrow
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Updates for Xubuntu 10.04.2
<MootBot> New Topic:  Updates for Xubuntu 10.04.2
<charlie-tca> we need to get anything for 10.04.2 into -proposed by next thursday
<charlie-tca> I think the docs will make it, and micahg said he will try to get them in if they are done
<charlie-tca> We can do that, right, mr_pouit ?
<mr_pouit> yeah, it looks ok
<charlie-tca> Thank you
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Announcements
<MootBot> New Topic:  Announcements
<charlie-tca> well, I don't seem to have any announcements today.
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Any Other Business
<MootBot> New Topic:  Any Other Business
<charlie-tca> anyone have anything we missed or needs to be brought up?
<mr_pouit> nothing from me =]
<beardygnome> not from me
<charlie-tca> I like this, nice and short today
<charlie-tca> Not having any more to discuss, let's end.
<mr_pouit> well, we were 3, it's easy to make a short meeting ;)
<charlie-tca> Thanks for making it to the meeting
<beardygnome> oh, i did have one thing...
<beardygnome> i've been testing greybird
<charlie-tca> well, go ahead, beardygnome
<charlie-tca> Is it working for you?
<beardygnome> i got one bug fixed and i've found a couple more that i'll report on the ml
<beardygnome> nopthing major, just some icons that belnd in a bit too well with the panel
<charlie-tca> Thanks for doing those tests! It sure helps to know it isn't just me looking at this stuff
<beardygnome> *nothing, *blend
<mr_pouit> you can also report them on #shimmer if you need to discuss directly with ochosi btw
<beardygnome> i think a screenshot will suffice
<beardygnome> can i send attachments on the ml, or should i host it elsewhere?
<charlie-tca> Can send attachments.
<beardygnome> that's good - i'll screenshot my panel and drop it on the ml
<charlie-tca> that works
<charlie-tca> anything else?
<beardygnome> that's all then.  been really busy at work, but hoping to get around to the rest of the docs next week
<charlie-tca> thanks again. I know your time is valuable and I appreciate you both making the meeting.
<beardygnome> i've reviewed sections 1 to 6 so far
<charlie-tca> There is a lot to do yet
<beardygnome> on the docs or in general?
<charlie-tca> I saw a message that the docs were available in html now, didn't I?
<charlie-tca> docs, mostly.
<beardygnome> i haven't seen that message
<beardygnome> but i've been quite focused on the day job this passed week
<charlie-tca> Might be all in my mind, too
<charlie-tca> Okay, let's go back to work then...
<charlie-tca> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 13:37.
<beardygnome> see you next week charlie-tca
<charlie-tca> Great!
<charlie-tca> Thanks for helping with those reviews
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-01-14
<leoquant> via: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Fridge/Calendar I try to add an event via a gmail account to ubuntu : http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar
<leoquant> but the event isn't on the fridge yet
<leoquant> someone into fridge calendar?
<Pendulum> leoquant: you may get better luck asking in #ubbuntu-news
<Pendulum> er... #ubuntu-news
<leoquant> oki
<leoquant> thx
<jam>  /who jam
 * ara waves
 * joshuahoover waves
<pitti> o/
 * marjo waves
<apw> o/
<ara> skaet is coming in a minute
<ara> she's having connection issues
<ara> here she is!
<skaet> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:03. The chair is skaet.
<ogra> woohoo
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<skaet> :)
<skaet> thanks ara
<skaet> Reminder:   please use ".." on separate line when you've finished typing.    If someone wants to comment on the last point, please "o/", so we know to wait
<skaet> [Topic] Natty overview - skaet
<MootBot> New Topic:  Natty overview - skaet
<skaet> Agenda is at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/2011-01-14
<skaet> Alpha 2 tasks, as indicated by the burn down charts are starting indicate progress, but overall above trend line.  see: http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/all-natty-alpha-2.html
<skaet> Milestoned bugs for alpha2 can be found https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.milestone=33572.
<skaet> given that we've all been at the rally this week, there hasn't been much progess on the bugs and its starting to get a bit worrying.
<skaet> Could the leads please take a look at them and update them in the wiki, after the meeting if they don't have comments ready today.
<pitti> ack
<skaet> are there any questions?
<skaet> ..
<skaet> [Topic] update on action items - skaet
<skaet> see agenda for latest status.  overall some good progress on that front this week.  :)
<MootBot> New Topic:  update on action items - skaet
<skaet> ..
<skaet> any further updates that need to be added?   new issues?
<skaet> ok then on to the round tables...
<skaet> [Topic] QA team update - marjo
<MootBot> New Topic:  QA team update - marjo
<marjo> Natty Work Items
<marjo> http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-platform-qa-natty-alpha-2.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-platform-qa-natty-alpha-2.html
<marjo> pitti: is that better? :)
<marjo> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/cloud-server-n-uec-qa
<marjo> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/ubuntutheproject-server-n-qa
<marjo> hggdh and zul made some progress this week
<marjo> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/ubuntutheproject-qa-n-bugsquad-doc-review
<marjo> 100% pedro finished work item this week
<skaet> :)
<marjo> thank you pedro!
<skaet> thank you from me too.  :)
<marjo> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/ubuntutheproject-qa-n-bugsquad-roadmap
<marjo> [brian-murray] bdmurray Add support information to bug reporting guidelines: BLOCKED on http://launchpad.net/bugs/692787
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 692787 in Launchpad itself "unable to update Ubuntu bug reporting guidelines" [Critical,Triaged]
<marjo> [charlie-tca] create bugsquad-mentor-teamA icon / artwork: Will worked on it this week
<marjo> QA Dashboard
<marjo> http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/qadashboard/qadashboard.html
<marjo> Note: alsa-driver, light-themes & grub2 as top packages with new bugs
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/qadashboard/qadashboard.html
<marjo> QA Team has been busy creating new desktop integration tests this week. 36 new tests as of yesterday.
<marjo> ..
<skaet> :)  thanks marjo
<skaet> any questions?
 * skaet is happy to see the new tests emerging - YAY!
<marjo> skaet: ack!
<skaet> [Topic] Hardware Certification team update - ara
<MootBot> New Topic:  Hardware Certification team update - ara
<ara> hello all!
<ara> So, the main thing to comment is that the issue that we had with our infrastructure that prevented us from testing the servers is now fixed
<ara> \o/
<skaet> *\o/*
<ara> So this week we were able to test clients and servers
<ara> The report is available, as usual, at:
<ara> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~hwcert/hw-testing/current
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~hwcert/hw-testing/current
<ara> The only important issue that we got was a kernel panic in one of the servers when installing the server image. We reported the bug:
<ara> [LINK] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/702166
<ara> It can be a natty issue for that HW, so it might be good to track that one.
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/702166
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 702166 in linux (Ubuntu) "Oops during install of Natty on HP ProLiant ML350 G5" [Undecided,New]
<ara> ..
<skaet> Thanks ara,  will add that one to the list
<skaet> thanks for flagging.
<skaet> any questions for ara?
<skaet> [Topic] Security team update - jdstrand
<MootBot> New Topic:  Security team update - jdstrand
<jdstrand> hi
<skaet> hi
<jdstrand> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/ReleaseStatus/Natty
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/ReleaseStatus/Natty
<jdstrand> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-security.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-security.html
<jdstrand> We have gone through all our unfinished work items, reprioritized and brought them into reality. Our burndown looks considerably better now. We have been able to work on and close a few during the rally as well. (yea :)
<skaet> :)
<jdstrand> In terms of bugs, there are a couple of natty/firefox bugs I need to follow up on, but they are minor. We have no pending features for alpha-2.
<jdstrand> (related to apparmor)
<skaet> ack
<jdstrand> the gimp security bug is undergoing triage as we speak
<jdstrand> ..
<skaet> thanks jdstrand!   any questions?
 * skaet will take a closer look at the unfinished work items later today   :)
<skaet> [Topic] Kernel team update - apw
<MootBot> New Topic:  Kernel team update - apw
 * skaet looks around for apw...
<apw> o/
<skaet> :)
<apw> Overall status is reported at the first link below.  Burn down for the release milestone is at the second link below.  Burndown for the cycle is at the third link:
<apw> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Natty
<apw> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-kernel-team-natty-alpha-2.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Natty
<apw> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-kernel-team.svg
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-kernel-team-natty-alpha-2.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-kernel-team.svg
<apw> We are progressing on our natty-alpha-2 items, some of the natty-alpha-1 items remain but we continue to close them.  The remaining pushed out items are listed with background on the overall status above (first link).  Overall burndown we are still below the line, so we should be able to catch up.  This week a number of security related items were postponed improving things significantly.
<apw> (thanks jdstrand :)
<apw> Of the bugs called out on the agenda: #686692 is likely related to the low memory constraints of this image type, investigation centres on this; #621195 are reporting benign messages, we are looking at suppressing these in production; for the rest there is little progress due to Rally commitments, status for all of these bugs are included on the first link above.
<apw> The main distro kernel remains at v2.6.37, we will remain on this version for a couple of weeks while the early 2.6.38 release candidates shake out.
<apw> ..
<pitti> ah, so plan is to have .38 in natty?
<pitti> or backports from it?
<pitti> (won't get that a little tight for .38 final?)
<apw> pitti, the plan is to aim for .38 yes, that is best alligned with timing and things like touch
<skaet> thanks apw.
<apw> np
<skaet> will the bugs get some focus next week?   they've been hanging around for a while now.  (understandable with holidays, rally, etc - but alpha 2 is approaching :p )
<apw> skaet, yeah as mainline is quiet we'll have some time
<skaet> cool.  :)
<skaet> any other questions?
<skaet> [Topic] Foundations team update - cjwatson
<MootBot> New Topic:  Foundations team update - cjwatson
<cjwatson> http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-foundations.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-foundations.html
<cjwatson> Very pleased with work item progress this week; well below the trend line now, and good progress on lots of other substantial pieces of work
<cjwatson> Bugs: Oh dear.  Sorry.  I promise to go through these in detail with the team today!
<cjwatson> Feature update:
<cjwatson> Upstart overrides code-complete; lots of discussions with kernel on improving testing landscape for upstart
<cjwatson> Upstart-in-initramfs detailed planning work; this is likely to be a multi-cycle project, but we're past the initial pain points now
<cjwatson> Ratings-and-reviews ready for deployment on staging; no blockers envisioned for deployment on production by feature freeze; need to consider further improvements for spam-resistance and similar
<cjwatson> Hacking usb-creator into shape, and bringing ayan up to speed on it; research work on disk testing framework for usb-creator and ubiquity
<cjwatson> Two test rebuilds:
<cjwatson>  - general buildability (http://people.ubuntuwire.org/~wgrant/rebuild-ftbfs-test/test-rebuild-20110107-natty.html)
<cjwatson>  - gcc-4.6 (http://people.ubuntuwire.org/~wgrant/rebuild-ftbfs-test/test-rebuild-20110111-gcc-natty.html)
<cjwatson> Working on Python 3 transition plan, aiming to be able to ship only Python 3 on the CD by the next LTS - pitti's sprint work on GIR should help a lot, of course
<cjwatson> Discussions at rally with bzr guys regarding UDD, identifying top issues
<cjwatson> Set up workshop with kernel/X teams to analyse people's graphical boot problems: the vast majority seem to reduce to a small number of fairly well-understood and tractable problems, so confident about this now
<cjwatson>  - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/Grub2BootFramebuffer/Whiteboard
<cjwatson> ..
<skaet> thanks cjwatson.  :)
<skaet> Appreciate you looking at the bugs,  I was about to ask  ;)  and delighted to hear about the features.
<skaet> any questions?
<cjwatson> I'm actually not very *worried* about most of the bugs, but we definitely need to clean them up
<cjwatson> BTW, we can't do anything about bug 605042 - it relies on an updated kernel
 * skaet feels a bit better.  :)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 605042 in eglibc (Ubuntu Natty) "[armel] java fails to start with eglibc-2.12-0ubuntu4" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/605042
<skaet> ack
<cjwatson> Jeremy Kerr has managed to reproduce it, but that was the last update on the bug
<cjwatson> so that should be -> kernel team for now, IMO
<skaet> ok,  go ahead and reassign then, and I'll track it there from now on.
 * apw looks for soemthing to swap with cjwatson :)
<skaet> lol
<cjwatson> the assignments in the bug are correct
<skaet> okie
<skaet> moving on then...
<cjwatson> it has a lucid task assigned to the kernel team, which is blocking maverick/natty tasks assigned to doko
<skaet> [Topic] Server team update - zul
<MootBot> New Topic:  Server team update - zul
<zul> hi
<zul> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/ReleaseStatus/
<zul> Lots of progress has been made this week but we are still behind the trend line. I am sure that more work item will be updated today so that it will look even beter. Some work items will also be probably deferred to alpha-3.
<zul> On the release critical bug front:
<zul>  697181 - php5 - was fixed last week
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/ReleaseStatus/
<zul>  697753 - eucalyptus - no prgress was made
<zul>  689944 - cluster-agents - talked to andreas about it, will be looked at today.
<zul>  665667 - euca2ools - cant launch a AMI bundle almost fixed by smoser.
<zul> ...
<skaet> thanks zul.  :)
<skaet> will dig into your charts in a bit more detail later.
<skaet> glad to hear about the progress this week.   :)
<zul> so am i :)
<skaet> any questions?
<skaet> :)
<skaet> [Topic] Desktop team update - pitti
<MootBot> New Topic:  Desktop team update - pitti
<pitti> Blueprint implementation:
<pitti>  * On track for entire cycle
<pitti>  * Got back on track for alpha-2
<pitti> General status:
<pitti>  * GTK 3 theming problem was solved for natty by fixing GTK2 enough to work with our ported gobject-introspection; apport, language-selector and friends now use GTK2 with GI and GTK3 fell off the CD.
<pitti>  * We are currently updating to the gdbus port of the indicators and other intrusive changes, which will cause some temporary uninstallability.
<pitti> CD space savings:
<pitti>  * We got some 25 MB of space savings identified at the sprint, 14 of them are in Natty; remaining is xulrunner-2.0 which should fall off soon. I. e. we are in good shape now \o/
<pitti> RC bugs:
<pitti>  * most of the new ones from the agenda are actually unity/compiz bugs and fall  into the DX domain
<pitti>  * New on the list is bug 692665; I fixed the root cause in langpack-o-matic, now need language pack -base rebuild, which will happen next week
<pitti>  * bug 637827: Chris Coulson put out a test package in a PPA and public call for testing, so this should land soon
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 692665 in language-pack-gnome-zh-hans-base (Ubuntu Natty) "language packs don't contain gnome-user-guide translations" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/692665
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 637827 in firefox (Ubuntu Natty) "Firefox and Thunderbird (XUL) menus don't appear in the global menu bar" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/637827
<pitti> ..
<skaet> Thanks pitti,   *\o/* for the space, and awesome burn down chart!!!
 * pitti bows
<skaet> :)
<skaet> any questions?
<skaet> [Topic] Ubuntu One Team - joshuahoover
<MootBot> New Topic:  Ubuntu One Team - joshuahoover
<joshuahoover> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOne/NattyReleaseStatus
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOne/NattyReleaseStatus
<joshuahoover> details on where we're at with blueprints and releases are in the link above
<joshuahoover> first (big) bit of speeding up file sync performance made it into ubuntuone-client 1.5.2 with a new metadata backend for syncdaemon...we've seen as much as 96x better performance with scanning local u1 metadata
<joshuahoover> desktopcouch 1.0.5 made it (finally!) in this week, which includes a lot of refactoring work
<joshuahoover> some members of the u1 team met with njpatel at the rally this week and we have a plan to move forward with u1 unity integration, including a launcher item that will give some indication as to syncing progress
<joshuahoover> and that's about it
<joshuahoover> ..
<skaet> Thanks joshuahoover!
<skaet> any questions?
 * skaet will be digging into these charts too....  :)  post rally
<skaet> [Topic] Kubuntu Team update - Riddell
<MootBot> New Topic:  Kubuntu Team update - Riddell
 * skaet looks around for Riddell?
<ScottK> Not sure if Riddell's around or not (I haven't been until just now myself).
<ScottK> We're getting close to 4.6.0 release and things are in general going well.
<ScottK> I don't have details prepared though.
<skaet> Thanks for steopping in ScottK.
<skaet> stepping even
<skaet> will see if he shows up later, and has further comments.   glad things are going well.
<skaet> [Topic] Desktop Experience Team Update - dbarth
<MootBot> New Topic:  Desktop Experience Team Update - dbarth
<dbarth_> hi
<skaet> hi
<dbarth_> status update at the usual address: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopExperienceTeam/NattyReleaseStatus
<dbarth_> and here is a quick summary of what happened this week
<dbarth_> on the shell front, mostly getting back to making weekly releases: unity, compiz
<dbarth_> the compiz bug triaging is still in progress, but we've started narrowing down a list at https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xorg/+bugs?field.tag=natty
<dbarth_> at the unity foundation level a lot was released
<dbarth_> with all of the dbusmenu and indicator libs
<dbarth_> that have been uploaded into natty
<dbarth_> some of them are still being released as i speak (msging indicator)
<dbarth_> it breaks apis unfortunately, so requires a couple of rebuilds
<skaet> ack.  thanks for heads up.
<dbarth_> also, a new libunity project has been created to gather all of the different unity related apis under a common "roof"
<dbarth_> places and a new quicklist api are going there
<dbarth_> it's mostly a packaging change at the moment, it should be the last for unity this cycle i think
<skaet> ..?
<dbarth_> bugs, we still have too many, but with the actions taken with the qa team, it should get clearer hoepfully next week
<dbarth_> (expiring olds ones, and reviewing prios)
<dbarth_> and that's it ;)
<dbarth_> ..
<skaet> thanks dbarth_ !    :)
<skaet> looking forward to things shaking out, and seeing some of those bugs close ;)
<skaet> any questions?
<skaet> [Topic] ARM team update - ogra
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM team update - ogra
<ogra> i must admit i havent really prepared something since since this morning the air is burning for the arm team
<ogra> but ......
<ogra> i'm really proud to present you this: http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-arm-natty-alpha-2.html
<ogra> :)
<skaet> *\o/*  woo hoo!!
 * pitti applauds
<ogra> we didnt do much bugwork this week
<ogra> but the specs are in shape for a2
<ogra> and you can expect some nice surprise hitting the archive within the next hours ;)
<ogra> ..
<skaet> cool.
<pitti> ogra: dput letterbomb_11.04_source.changes?
<ogra> lol
<skaet> thanks ogra!   will be looking for it.  :)
<skaet> any questions?
<pitti> ogra: (thinking about "Schluempfe" -- nevermind)
<skaet> [Topic] MOTU team update - ScottK
<MootBot> New Topic:  MOTU team update - ScottK
<ScottK> Still lots of DSO linking, gcc 4.5 and python2.7 work to be done.
<ScottK> Nothing new to report  really.
<ScottK> Slow progress and we'll see how far we get.
<skaet> ..?
<ScottK> ..
<skaet> Thanks ScottK.
<skaet> Will you be around early next week?   want to brainstorm a bit on IRC on the backlog.
 * skaet noting its a long weekend in the US ;)
<ScottK> Should be on Monday.
<skaet> cool.   Thanks - will look for you then.  :)
<skaet> [Topic] Linaro update - JamieBennett
<MootBot> New Topic:  Linaro update - JamieBennett
<JamieBennett> Hi Kate,
<skaet> hi!
<JamieBennett> Last I heard, the Ubuntu ARM team are still undecided whether or not they will take the Linaro OMAP3 kernel. Consensus what that at the moment that wonât happen but that could of changed, maybe ogra knows more? jcrigby will accommodate necessary Ubuntu changes.
<JamieBennett> As for ARMv7 string tuning in GLIBC, this will be worked on in the coming month and we are hopeful that something will be able to be used this cycle. Iâll keep you posted.
<JamieBennett> QEMU is being released by the toolchain group monthly starting next month (second Tuesday) so we could fold that into the release.
<ogra> JamieBennett, we wont
<JamieBennett> ogra: OK
<ogra> omap3 is built from the linux package again
<JamieBennett> Last but not least, Michael Hope has committed to testing qt-x11 with the volatile int fix.
<ogra> nobody wanted to commit to do SRU and security fixed to the linaro one
<ogra> *fixes
<skaet> thanks to Michael Hope for the testing.  :)
<JamieBennett> :)
 * skaet will update that action item in the agenda later
<JamieBennett> questions?
<skaet> Thanks JamieBennett ( you caught all of mine in your summary :)  )
<skaet> [Topic] any other kudos/comments/questions?
<MootBot> New Topic:  any other kudos/comments/questions?
<Amaranth> kudos :)
<skaet> Kudo:  Thank you to eveyone here today - we may actually finish this meeting in an hour,  nice and efficient.  :)
 * skaet looks around...
<skaet> going once
<skaet> twice
<marjo> skaet: thx!
<skaet> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:52.
<pitti> thanks everyone
<ara> thanks!
<skaet> Thanks  marjo, ara, jdstrand, apw, cjwatson, pitti,  zul, joshuahoover,  dbarth, ogra,  ScottK, JamieBennett
<ogra> thanks skaet
<joshuahoover> thanks skaet
<zul> no thank you
<skaet> :)
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-01-09
<brendand> hey!
<roadmr> hello!
<mlegris> o/
<roadmr> ok, let's get this show on the road!
<roadmr> #startmeeting Ubuntu Friendly meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Jan  9 16:01:02 2012 UTC.  The chair is roadmr. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Friendly meeting Meeting | Current topic:
<roadmr> Hi everyone, welcome to the Ubuntu Friendly meeting!
<roadmr> First meeting of the year!
<roadmr> I hope you had a great end-of-year and that this year is awesome for you.
<roadmr> We're already hard at work on improving Ubuntu Friendly! Today we have the following topics to talk about:
<roadmr> * Checkbox (Ubuntu Friendly, System Testing) -proposed version status -
<roadmr> roadmr
<roadmr> * Fixing papercuts in the test suite - brendand
<roadmr> * Any Other Business
<roadmr> As usual, you're welcome to participate, indicate you want to speak by raising your hand (o/). Don't forget to also signal when you're done using ..
<roadmr> Let's get started with the agenda!
<roadmr> [TOPIC] Checkbox (Ubuntu Friendly, System Testing) -proposed version status - roadmr
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Friendly meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Checkbox (Ubuntu Friendly, System Testing) -proposed version status - roadmr
<roadmr> hey that's me heheh
<roadmr> As you know, last year (sounds like a long time ago) we submitted a few bug fixes for checkbox, to be made available as an SRU for Ubuntu 11.10.
<roadmr> Unfortunately two of those bugs failed verification. We updated our update (so to speak) and I resubmitted the SRU request which should be OK this time around.
<cr3> o/
<roadmr> Right now we're awaiting a re-updated checkbox in -proposed. Once it's available I'll notify the mailing list and I'd appreciate, once again, your valuable help in verifying that the bugs are fixed as advertised.
<ara> o/
<roadmr> all bugs should verify just as they did the last time, except for:
<roadmr> bug 862322 (this failed the last time around, but should pass in the new SRU)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 862322 in checkbox (Ubuntu Oneiric) "bluetooth/detect shouldn't run on a system with no Bluetooth device" [Undecided,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/862322
<roadmr> bug 877752 (this failed the last time around, and will NOT be included in the new SRU, so can be just ignored this time)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 877752 in checkbox (Ubuntu Oneiric) "connect_wireless can unintentionally choose a non-wireless connection to connect to" [Undecided,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/877752
<roadmr> so that's it for the SRU, I'll let everyone know once the update is in -proposed awaiting testing. Thanks!
<roadmr> ara, hey! go ahead!
<ara> cr3 was first :D
<cr3> why did those bugs fail verification? any lesson to be learned for next time?
<cr3> ..
<ara> and I had the same question :D
<roadmr> cr3: yes, the lesson is to be more careful :P the first failed because I neglected to actually include the fixing code, which happened because I omnibus'd the changelog, and then I forgot to include the actual code fixes
<roadmr> lesson 1: preferrably merge each change and its changelog together, rather than omnibusing the changelog
<cr3> roadmr: backporting across different branch roots using patch is error prone indeed. I blame bzr, not you :)
<roadmr> the second failed because the fix introduced *another* bug which we didn't catch (just as we didn't catch the original problem ourselves) because the problem doesn't happen in our lab setup
<ara> I blame it on the boogie
<roadmr> so since the original bug is still in development, we can't SRU those changes- so I had to revert them altogether
<roadmr> the lesson here is to be very careful in trying to replicate the failing environment to make 100% sure that the fix works - this one looked good at first glance but there was a subtlety in field ordering that caused things to fail
<cr3> ara: don't blame it on the sunshine :)
<roadmr> there :)
<roadmr> ..
<ara> nice explanation!
<bladernr_> o/
<roadmr> bladernr_: go ahead!
<bladernr_> Just thought I'd point out that the second item seems to be a good case for why we need/love community testing...
<bladernr_> that's all...
<bladernr_> :)
<bladernr_> ..
<roadmr> bladernr_: yep! I'm not entirely sure the community person who reported the bug did verify it, I think he didn't - so we just assumed it worked because the code looked fine
<roadmr> bladernr_: ideally we'd wait until all the original reporters verify the bugs
<cr3> roadmr: that's a common problem with drive-by bug reporting where the community disappears when comes time to reproduce
<roadmr> bladernr_: but it's not always possible, so once a reasonable time has elapsed, we are somewhat forced to verify ourselves to move things forward
<cr3> roadmr: I think this is too common to block bug fixes on being able to reach the community
<bladernr_> right
<roadmr> which is why we have to be extra diligent in replicating the error conditions
<roadmr> cr3: yep, well in this case it was bad to "gate" 6 fixes on a 7th one that wasn't getting any attention
<roadmr> so we just need to be more careful when we don't have community verification (unlike the 0.9.2 SRU where we had a lot of help from Chad Davis)
<roadmr> anything else on this topic? :)
<roadmr> OK let's move on then
<roadmr> [TOPIC] Fixing papercuts in the test suite - brendand
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Friendly meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Fixing papercuts in the test suite - brendand
<roadmr> brendand, you have the stage
<brendand> hi
<brendand> we'd like to hear from people about problems they have with the ubuntu friendly tests. anything from test failing to changes that would make a test easier to understand are welcome
<brendand> you can put your comments on this spreadsheet next to the test name: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ApQ2JshzVOLydF8waXotcXZueGc3MlB1am1jUEgwTHc
<ara> o/
<brendand> note that the spreadsheet contains a lot of tests not run in ubuntu-friendly
<roadmr> o/
<brendand> ideally, base your comments on what you see in the precise version of Checkbox, since many changes have been made from Oneiric
<brendand> ...
<roadmr> ara, you're first this time!
<ara> :)
<ara> I was wondering how do we know which items from that list are already being taken care by someone else
<ara> or which ones have been already fixed
<ara> ..
<brendand> ara - i guess it might be good to add a column for 'status'
<brendand> ...
 * brendand adds one
<roadmr> my turn..
<roadmr> is the spreadsheet open to the public at-large?
<mlegris> I think so
<brendand> well. you need to use the link i just pasted, which i will also send to the mailing list i guess
<roadmr> if not, would it be wortwhile doing so? perhaps not as directly as just sharing the document with the world, but creating a "public" version that people can comment on via, say, google docs forms (that way we reduce the chance of people messing up the spreadsheet)
<roadmr> ..
<cr3> "anyone who has the link can edit"
<cr3> so, you have to attend this meeting to get the link :)
<roadmr> ok great :)
<roadmr> anyone else on the test papercuts topic?
<roadmr> nope? :) let's move on then
<roadmr> to everyone's favorite topic!
<roadmr> [TOPIC] AOB - Any other business
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Friendly meeting Meeting | Current topic:  AOB - Any other business
<roadmr> Now's your chance to discuss anything you didn't have time to add to the agenda! any takers?
<mlegris> o/
<roadmr> mlegris: go ahead
<mlegris> At the end of a testing run, does the button still say next rather then exit?
<mlegris> I find that rather odd if it is
<mlegris> ..
<roadmr> good point, though it doesn't "exit" as such, so something else may be better - "see results" ?
<mlegris> nm, its say finished :P
<roadmr> oh ok :)
<cr3> that's wrong, it should say "I like turtles"
<ara> or boogie, to be able to blame it on it
<roadmr> that's more of a l10n concern I think
<cr3> export LANGUAGE=cr3
<roadmr> heh
<roadmr> anything else? :)
<roadmr> "speak now or forever (until next monday) hold your peace" :P
<roadmr> going once...
<roadmr> going twice...
<cr3> roadmr: trust me, you don't want me to speak... only nonsense comes out :(
<roadmr> and it's all publicly logged :)
<cr3> going thrice...
<roadmr> gone!
<roadmr> Well I guess this wraps things up for today. Thanks for attending! please remember to help with the Checkbox verification if you can. And remember the mailing list is open to all your UF-related comments and inquiries.
<ara> thanks roadmr!
<roadmr> Thanks all! have a good day!
<roadmr> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Jan  9 16:33:47 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-01-09-16.01.moin.txt
<cr3> roadmr: you roxor!
<mdz> #startmeeting Technical Board
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Jan  9 20:58:26 2012 UTC.  The chair is mdz. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Technical Board Meeting | Current topic:
 * stgraber waves
<cyphermox> o/
<cjwatson> here
<mdz> #topic Action review
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Technical Board Meeting | Current topic:  Action review
<mdz>  * pitti: document brainstorm review activity â carried over
<mdz>  * kees: perform brainstorm review â carried
<pitti> documentation is done
<kees> \o
<soren> o/
<kees> yeah, holiday distracted me about the brainstorm review :(
<mdz> #action kees to perform brainstorm review
<meetingology> ACTION: kees to perform brainstorm review
<mdz> #topic Xubuntu LTS Application (knome)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Technical Board Meeting | Current topic:  Xubuntu LTS Application (knome)
<mdz> knome doesn't seem to be around
<pitti> he sent a mail today
<knome> hey
<pitti> that would need a list of supported packages, I think
<pitti> oh, hello knome!
<mdz> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/technical-board/2012-January/001160.html
<mdz> #link https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/technical-board/2012-January/001160.html
<stgraber> mdz: re-added Edubuntu after Kubuntu to the agenda. We haven't voted on it yet as Edubuntu's LTS status depends on Kubuntu's
<pitti> as Xubuntu is built out of universe, it's not immediately clear which packages in it are security sensitive
<mdz> pasting here since it's short:
<mdz> the Xubuntu team has put together an LTS plan proposal for the TB to
<mdz> review, and it is as follows:
<mdz>   * 3-year LTS cycles
<mdz>   * Milestone image testing i386/amd64 (including point release updates
<mdz> post release)
<mdz>   * Best effort High/Critical bug fixes
<mdz>   * Best effort security fixes for Xfce related packages
<mdz> knome, is there a list of 'Xfce related packages'?
<knome> no, not yet at least afaik
<micahg> xubuntu has a packageset: http://people.canonical.com/~stgraber/package_sets/precise/xubuntu
<pitti> most desktop-ish packages are probably fairly harmless, but I wonder if there are some libraries which touch/parse HTML or other network data
<knome> tbh, micahg will know about this 10 better than me :)
<ScottK> What web browser does Xubuntu use by default?
<knome> firefox at the moment
<knome> and thunderbird as mail client
<mdz> #link http://people.canonical.com/~stgraber/package_sets/precise/xubuntu
<ScottK> That would certainly help with security support.
<knome> yeah, and micahg is active in both communities ;)
<mdz> (does #link not work, or is it just silent?)
<pitti> pidgin stands out as a security-heavy package
<knome> mdz, it's silent :)
<micahg> I'm not sure if it's feasible to commit to the entire packageset though
<micahg> pidgin is supported by the security team as it's in main
<stgraber> http://paste.ubuntu.com/798657/
<stgraber> that's the list of source packages in Xubuntu that aren't supported in Ubuntu
<stgraber> (based on germinate output)
<pitti> hm, I don't think that's really intended; sounds like we forgot to unseed it since we switched to empathy
<micahg> stgraber: that should be the xubuntu packageset :)
<mdz> if these packages are going to receive bug fixes and security updates, is it appropriate to move them into main?
<micahg> oh, but it's not...
<mdz> that would make things simpler
<micahg> mdz: no, it wouldn't
<stgraber> micahg: hehe, yeah, that doesn't always work ;)
<pitti> telepathy-haze -> b-deps libpurple-dev
<knome> i suppose "xfce related packages" mostly are meant to mean xfce4-* and thunar-*, maybe tumbler, ristretto, leafpad, gtk2-engines-xfce, garcon <- micahg, am i right?
<knome> parole
<knome> orage
<knome> libxfce*
<cjwatson> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RecognizedDerivatives doesn't require moving everything to main, so I'm a bit wary of setting that precedent since I know the review process entails a fair amount of work
<knome> gigolo
<mdz> how about a Supported: header in Packages?
<cjwatson> that's not too hard
<micahg> yeah, I checked the xfce specific packages and they had pretty few CVEs, I'm not sure about the rest, I guess I'd want to check before committing to those packages
<cjwatson> harder than it ought to be, but not desperately bad
<mdz> so is the question whether or not it's OK to label Xubuntu an LTS given this level of maintenance?
<cjwatson> (http://bazaar.launchpad.net/+branch/launchpad/files/head:/cronscripts/publishing/maintenance-check.py I think; can't check as it's timing out ...)
<pitti> mdz: we have had these for a long time already?
<mdz> pitti, I mean for the Xubuntu packages
<mdz> so that it's clear to end users what's what
<cjwatson> Any TB decision regarding flavour support lifetime should be accompanied by an LP branch publishing that change in LP
<cjwatson> or followed by, anyway
<cjwatson> knome: How many active developers do you currently have?
<knome> cjwatson, that depends on how you count it, but i'd say 1-3...
<knome> cjwatson, but 1 is how we've maintained xubuntu for the past i can't remember how many releases
<cjwatson> My main concern with any flavour is essentially whether they'll actually be able to sustain the support lifetime in question
<micahg> 2 active with upload rights AFAIK, myself and mr_pouit
<cjwatson> Supporting stable releases takes a fair amount of time over and above supporting ongoing development; depending on how much turnover you have in your software stack it doesn't necessarily parallelise well
<knome> cjwatson, the plan has been discussed in the community and we decided/come to the conclusion this is what we can do
<charlie-tca> I would add that Xubuntu has supported both 8.04 and 10.04 as LTS releases, with three year lifetimes
<mdz> cjwatson, I don't know what assurance we can ask for other than that they solemnly swear it :-)
<cjwatson> Right, but the TB is supposed to do *some* kind of check :)
<cjwatson> What kind of SRU throughput do you have at the moment?
<knome> is it a good argument/assurance if we've did it with less resources for two releases already? :)
<knome> micahg is the one to answer that ^
<cjwatson> mdz: I realise it's hard to predict the future; I just want to make sure we don't end up in a situation where we advertise n-year support for lots of flavours in a fit of enthusiasm and then don't make it
<cjwatson> charlie-tca: What do you mean by that?  Do you mean that you (plural) were continuing to publish SRUs for three years from date of release?
<pitti> LTS support in practice mostly means "security updates" and perhaps a point release, right? Or do you actually plan to backport hardware support, etc?
<mdz> cjwatson, do we need to differentiate somehow between Canonical-backed LTS and community-backed LTS?
<charlie-tca> cjwatson: yes
<micahg> mr_pouit has done 5 SRUs since oneiric's release
<cjwatson> mdz: On the whole I would prefer not to as a matter of principle, although there's the elephant in the room of security support
<micahg> the reason why we think it's feasible as Xfce generally only has a handful of CVEs every couple of years
<micahg> s/as/is/
<charlie-tca> I don't think we would be doing hardware backports, but security updates, SRU's, and point releases
 * pitti checks abiword history -- doesn't have too many past CVEs
<kees> I don't think there's been much research lately on abiword -- most efforts moved to OOo
<micahg> I'm not sure about the rest of the packages in the packageset, I would have to check on those
<cjwatson> damn, I need a way to count SRUs by package set :-)
<mdz> cjwatson, I think there's a qualitative difference between the two. an organizational commitment generally stands even if the individuals involved were to disappear
<micahg> cjwatson: I just did it by name :)_
<mdz> but I don't feel that strongly about it
<cjwatson> mdz: OTOH individuals often retain enthusiasm when companies decide for political reasons to move on, so it's swings and roundabouts I think
<mdz> cjwatson, that would be interesting data - SRUs by package set
<mdz> do we have enough information on the table to make a decision about Xubuntu now?
<soren> Just one thing:
<soren> Maybe it's been answered already, but: What's the motivation?
<knome> to keep xubuntu supported for 3 years?
<soren> Has there been a lot of demand for it from the user community?
<soren> Yes.
<pitti> so, for me the packages that stand out are pidgin, abiword, xchat; nontrivial, but on the whole seems manageable; but I still wonder if there is a lot of actual demand for it?
<soren> Or is it simply to be a serious alternative to the "bigger" flavours?
<cjwatson> I think I am reasonably convinced that Xubuntu has a credible history of being a responsible part of the development community and caring about updates as much as many others, at least from my own impressions and the extremely unscientific data samplings I've been able to do
<soren> ...or something entirely different?
<charlie-tca> Not having a need for users to download and install 300-500 updates two years down the road because as non-LTS designated, you do not get a point release
<soren> charlie-tca: Is that the key factor or just one in many?
<charlie-tca> one
<soren> Ok.
<charlie-tca> but a serious one, since users are sometimes downloading as much in updates as the original cd
<knome> that too, and tbh, the non-lts releases have been stable too, so it's not a huge push to go for a longer supported lts too, and we really want to do that
<soren> It probably won't change my vote or anything, I'm just curious what the motivation is.
<soren> Ok.
<soren> That's cool.
<cjwatson> Xubuntu hasn't generally been one for going in for horrifically unstable wobbly software stacks either IME
<knome> it's just logical to go that way really, as we've always done it and it haven't been a problem
<mdz> we have other topics to get to: ready to vote?
<cjwatson> which should help ...
<soren> I'm ready to vote.
<cjwatson> aol
<stgraber> I'm ready too
<pitti> yeah, it was worse when it was still using hal a year or so ago, now it should be relatively robust
<knome> pitti, not all things in the world can we fix ;)
<mdz> #voters cjwatson pitti stgraber mdz kees soren
<meetingology> Current voters: cjwatson kees mdz pitti soren stgraber
<mdz> #vote Xubuntu LTS 3-year designation
<meetingology> Please vote on: Xubuntu LTS 3-year designation
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<soren> mdz: Cool, I didn't know about that feature.
<soren> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from soren
<mdz> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from mdz
<pitti> +0
<meetingology> +0 received from pitti
<stgraber> +0
<meetingology> +0 received from stgraber
<cjwatson> +1 - it sounds feasible and I think I'm convinced of the Xubuntu team's ability to deliver
<meetingology> +1 - it sounds feasible and I think I'm convinced of the Xubuntu team's ability to deliver received from cjwatson
 * mdz prods kees
<cjwatson> (And there's been a lot of buzz about Xubuntu lately, especially from people who dislike Unity; I'd like to encourage them to stay within the fold ...)
<stgraber> for the record, the +0 was because of the somewhat limited set of people dealing with uploads when supporting a different desktop. I'd really love to see more people contributing to packaging and SRUs for Xubuntu
<micahg> stgraber: so would I :)
<knome> stgraber, we love you so much as you're willing to help us
<mdz> I'm going to assume kees got disconnected or something
<mdz> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Xubuntu LTS 3-year designation
<meetingology> Votes for:3 Votes against:0 Abstentions:2
<meetingology> Motion carried
<mdz> #topic ARB: Allow for files outside of /opt/extras.ubuntu.com/<source>/ as long as they are prefixed by "extras-<source>_". This is mostly to fix Unity lenses, the ARB will still require any data and binary to be in /opt/extras.ubuntu.com/<source>/. An example would be (for package abc): /usr/share/unity/lenses/music/extras-abc_abcmusicstore.scope (stgraber)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Technical Board Meeting | Current topic:  ARB: Allow for files outside of /opt/extras.ubuntu.com/<source>/ as long as they are prefixed by "extras-<source>_". This is mostly to fix Unity le
<knome> thanks!
<mdz> #topic ARB: Allow for files outside of /opt/extras.ubuntu.com/<source>/ as long as they are prefixed by "extras-<source>_".
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Technical Board Meeting | Current topic:  ARB: Allow for files outside of /opt/extras.ubuntu.com/<source>/ as long as they are prefixed by "extras-<source>_".
<stgraber> oh, my topic :)
<mdz> stgraber, yep :-)
<ajmitch> great :)
<stgraber> so basically, the ARB has received some Unity lenses to review
<stgraber> these like desktop apps need some kind of reference outside of /opt
<stgraber> in order to provide a generic way for the ARB to provide these, I'm proposing that extras-<source name>_ prefix so we avoid potential path conflicts
<cjwatson> This kind of reminds me of the various things in the LSB (I think) that have namespaced files in various places for when it isn't practical to have a separate hierarchy
<mdz> what do they need specifically?
<stgraber> as much as possible would remain in /opt/extras.u.c/<source>
<mdz> is it not practical for unity to look for lenses in /opt?
<cjwatson> I think the principle is reasonable but I think it should be up to the Unity people to define the namespace of the files in their directory
<cjwatson> And not to the ARB to pick one
<stgraber> no, because you'd need gobbing for /opt/extras.ubuntu.com/*/usr/share/unity/*/
<pitti> in general, prefixing files with extra_<src>_ looks like a reasonable way to me to limit the chance of file collisions
<stgraber> and we'd need to SRU that change to supported release (at least 11.10) which could still be considered a new feature
<cjwatson> And then it would be fine to say something like "packages under the purview of the ARB can have files outside /opt where specific policy allows for namespacing to avoid collisions"
<cjwatson> IMHO
<pitti> the globbing shouldn't actually be that expensive, though
<mdz> cjwatson, +1
<cjwatson> That is a particularly irritating type of thing to have to glob ...
<stgraber> cjwatson: I'd be fine with that, sure
<pitti> but I'm even inclined to say that we shold modify the existing policy to prefix *.desktop files in /usr, too
<cjwatson> I mean if you look at the syscalls involved
<stgraber> pitti: agreed
<pitti> I'm fine with prefixing the lens descriptions, though (I guess the actual code would live in /opt)
<mdz> cjwatson, it doesn't sound too bad to me, but namespacing outside of opt is certainly simpler
<stgraber> yes, only the lense file would be in /usr, everything else would be in /opt. We just need to confirm with the DX guys what's the easiest, a prefix or a sub-directory (if they scan sub-directories), ...
<cjwatson> mdz: I'm thinking of this as something that might apply to things other than lenses, and trying to keep down the number of moderately expensive lookups across the system - I agree it probably wouldn't have a huge impact in just one case but this feels like a precedent
<mdz> stgraber, sounds like a consensus
<mdz> good enough?
<stgraber> yep
<pitti> right, and prefixing with extras_src_ seems like a general enough principle for this, unless of course the file name is user visible
<mdz> #topic Kubuntu LTS Application (ScottK)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Technical Board Meeting | Current topic:  Kubuntu LTS Application (ScottK)
<ajmitch> how much patching of packages do you think this'd introduce?
<mdz> oh, sorry ajmitch
<pitti> e. g. we wouldn't name LibO document templates like that
<ScottK> Hello.
<ScottK> This should really be Riddell.
<Riddell> waiting for previous to finish
<mdz> #link https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/12.04/LTS-Proposal
<Riddell> that's the proposal, we'd like to suggest Kubuntu is an LTS for 5 years
<mdz> ajmitch, I imagine not much, only where the program in question can't accommodate the namespacing (restrictions on filenames eg)
<pitti> I've got a question about Qtwebkit
<stgraber> the initial motivation for this was Unity lenses, so for these I'll talk to DX to see how we want to do it, for other similar cases, the ARB will deal with it case by case and if something weird shows up and we aren't sure how to deal with, we'll come back to the TB
<Riddell> we're a supported product of canonical, have a strong comminity and it's in a good place for upstreams
 * Riddell waits
<cjwatson> stgraber: sounds good
 * ajmitch thinks we're done with the ARB topic now, sorry :)
<pitti> stgraber: dbus activation *.service ? (related to lenses)
<stgraber> pitti: right, these will need to use that exception too, though we'll be extremely careful with anything touching dbus because of potential path conflict on the dbus path
<mdz> Riddell, what is upstream's plan for ongoing maintenance of Qt and KDE during this time?
<pitti> it seems to me that, similar to firefox, webkit would need a Âµrelease exception, and corresponding Qtwebkit updates
<mdz> you mentioned both are going to see major new versions; does that mean that support for the current versions might be discontinued during the 5-year term?
<micahg> pitti: that's true, but we have a problem in that qtwebkit usually only supports the last 2 QT stable releases (or maybe even 1)
<pitti> do we have experience with API stability for those? i. e. can we build a three year old KDE browser against a current {,qt}webkit?
<Riddell> mdz: formal support from upstreams is the same as always
<Riddell> KDE is does patches for the master and last two releases and Qt does much the same
<Riddell> of course qt is in ubuntu desktop so it's already 5 years supported
<pitti> which is fine for most of the desktop, IMHO
<pitti> (GNOME does even less)
<mdz> Riddell, cool, thanks
<kees> mdz: bleh, yeah, network back now. +1 from me, fwiw.
<pitti> but we do need to find a solution for webkit for 5 years
<Riddell> pitti: Qt has a policy of not changing API for the Qt 4 series
<pitti> Riddell: ah, so while the webkit API might change, qtwebkit would "adapt" it to a stable API?
<pitti> webkit is of course used by other (non-KDE) bits as well, so that will introduce some extra porting challenge (as we don't want to break other software in main using webkit)
<Riddell> pitti: yes, it'll use Qt 4.8 in 12.04 and the API and ABI don't change
<Riddell> Qt has a copy of webkit in its sources
<micahg> qtwebkit and webkitgtk are 2 separate sources
<pitti> e. g. software-center, rhythmbox, and ubiquity use webkit as well, so we might need to adapt them to new webkits (i. e. backport ports from the devel release)
<cjwatson> and webkit is embedded in qtwebkit?
<micahg> pitti: no, the plan with those is to stay on webkit 1.8 for the life of precise (we can discuss that later)
<micahg> *webkitgtk
<pitti> micahg: ah, we can? does it get supported for that long?
<stgraber> same script as before gives me the following for kubuntu: http://paste.ubuntu.com/798698/
<stgraber> which interestingly doesn't list qtwebkit
<micahg> pitti: I'll be trying to build a conglomerate of people to support it
<Riddell> note ubuntu one is going to be ported to pyqt I head so that means qtwebkit will be 5 years supported by virtue of ubuntu desktop anyway
<stgraber> which would indicate something in Ubuntu brings something which brings qtwebkit into Ubuntu
<Riddell> stgraber: no ubuntu desktop uses qt
<pitti> http://paste.ubuntu.com/798698/ looks very incomplete
<cjwatson> stgraber: depends whether you're using the output of something that follows build-depends, which would almost certainly pull in qtwebkit
<cjwatson> you can't build Ubuntu desktop from scratch (e.g. new port) without building qtwebkit along the way
<cjwatson> which is of course not the same as supporting it for users
<pitti> Riddell: right, and webkit itself is, too (the qt binding around it is probably less of a security problem)
<cjwatson> the same reason may account for other apparent incompleteness too
<mdz> 10 minute warning
<pitti> no other questions from me
<mdz> Edubuntu is still up next
<ScottK> I think it's also worth mentioning that we've had very good experiences with KDE updates post-release.  We've updated all of KDE twice for oneiric and I'm about to upload the third and last full release to oneiric-proposed.
<ScottK> It seems like they're doing a good job on preventing regressions as they fix bugs.
<debfx> pitti: afaik qtwebkit doesn't plan to release a new version for Qt 4 with an updated webkit
<mdz> #vote https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/12.04/LTS-Proposal
<meetingology> Please vote on: https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/12.04/LTS-Proposal
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<pitti> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from pitti
<mdz> +1 sounds workable to me
<meetingology> +1 sounds workable to me received from mdz
<kees> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from kees
<stgraber> cjwatson: that was using all+extra.sources, diffing ubuntu and kubuntu
<stgraber> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from stgraber
<cjwatson> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from cjwatson
<cjwatson> stgraber: right, so as I said
<cjwatson> (Oh boy.  mvo overhauled maintenance-check but it still needs non-trivial work to support different LTS lifetimes for different flavours.)
<ScottK> Fortunately he's got a use case to work with then ...
<mdz> soren, still here?
<cjwatson> ScottK: I was just going to do it now(ish)
<ScottK> ;-)
<soren> Sorry, yes.
<soren> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from soren
 * micahg still has no idea who's supporting qtwebkit
<soren> Real world, unmaskable interrupt :)
<mdz> hmm, seems like if all #voters have voted, the vote should end itself
<mdz> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/12.04/LTS-Proposal
<meetingology> Votes for:6 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<mdz> #topic Edubuntu LTS Application (stgraber)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Technical Board Meeting | Current topic:  Edubuntu LTS Application (stgraber)
<pitti> micahg: if webkit itself stays at 1.8, then the binding shouldn't actually need much maintenance?
<stgraber> highvoltage: ^
<pitti> micahg: I was mostly concerned by e. g. a MRE for webkit to be able to support it (like firefox), and then we'd need heavy bindings work
<stgraber> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/12.04/LTS-Proposal
<micahg> pitti: webkitgtk and qtwebkit are built from two different sources, I have no idea if patches are portable
<pitti> this was pre-discussed, and the requisite (Kubuntu LTS) is now ack'ed, so edubuntu looks fine for me
<mdz> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/12.04/LTS-Proposal
<fabo> micahg: sometime they are, not always
<stgraber> so basically we were waiting on Kubuntu's as Edubuntu is roughly Ubuntu + Kubuntu and then our educational packages
<cjwatson> We were going to review the list of Edubuntu-specific sources too
<cjwatson> arkose, what a surprise ;-)
<cjwatson> (That isn't in Ubuntu yet?)
<cjwatson> (I mean desktop)
<stgraber> since last time we discussed, we've dropped our java dependency making the list much shorter
<pitti> micahg: oh, it's not just a binding; I thought it was
<mdz> package list: http://paste.ubuntu.com/798471/
<cjwatson> calibre?
<stgraber> cjwatson: nope, it's still in Universe, only Edubuntu ships it at this point
<cjwatson> That doesn't have a stellar recent history
<mdz> bdrung, it doesn't look like we'll get to your topic, I'm sorry
<kees> vnc4?
<pitti> calibre is primarily a matter of updating it for hw support
<kees> and x11vnc?
<pitti> as new reader models come into the world quickly
<stgraber> kees: vnc4 and x11vnc both come because of epoptes, our classroom management tool
<stgraber> we used to have iTalc shipping with bundled source of these two, thought it'd be better to switch to something actually using the tools
<mdz> hmm, I  thought SDL was in main but I guess not
<cjwatson> pitti: https://bugs.launchpad.net/calibre/+bug/885027
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 885027 in calibre "SUID Mount Helper has 5 Major Vulnerabilities" [Undecided,Fix released]
<stgraber> the upstream for epoptes is an Edubuntu developer and uses LTS in production so will be doing LTS support for these
<pitti> cjwatson: heh, never aplied to debian/ubuntu fortunately
 * kees nods
<cjwatson> pitti: I know, the thread just isn't exactly encouraging though
<pitti> this wrapper looked waaay to crackful to me to package it
<pitti> yeah, righ
<pitti> t
<pitti> it does have a lot of recipes to scrape websites and build epubs, which is a potential threat vector
<soren> mdz: libsdl1.2 is in main. QEmu uses it.
<mdz> soren, ah, but -image and -mixer are in universe. got it.
<pitti> for both the recipes and hw support releases generally become mostly useless after a few months
<mdz> and -net
<mdz> 1 minute warning
<stgraber> pitti: is that something we can easily SRU or should we instead drop calibre to avoid getting a useless tool after a while?
<stgraber> it seemed useful when we introduced it, but I'm not extremely attached to it (though I use it myself)
<pitti> stgraber: the dependencies don't tend to change a lot, so in principle it's backportable; but the UI tends to change, so it's not a "classic" SRU
<mdz> calibre will continue to work with lots of devices even if it isn't updated. the ebook reader world doesn't move THAT fast :-)
<mdz> we're out of time
<cjwatson> This sounds like there are bits and pieces but generally we're OK
<pitti> stgraber: I don't know how well the recipes backport to old releases; hw support is rather intrusive, as the core code changes a lot
<mdz> if we're not ready to make a decision on this, we should take further discussion to email
<pitti> mdz: the recipes do, though
<pitti> web sites change all the time
<stgraber> I'm a Kindle owner, so you can expect Kindle support to be working, not sure for other devices, as long as hardware support doesn't regress, I'm not really worried
<cjwatson> I'm ready to vote
<mdz> pitti, oh, I don't use those
 * stgraber is ready too
<mdz> #vote https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/12.04/LTS-Proposal
<meetingology> Please vote on: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/12.04/LTS-Proposal
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<stgraber> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from stgraber
<mdz> +0
<meetingology> +0 received from mdz
<pitti> +1 (with the caveat of some packages)
<meetingology> +1 (with the caveat of some packages) received from pitti
<cjwatson> +1 but I think it's worth examining calibre further
<meetingology> +1 but I think it's worth examining calibre further received from cjwatson
<kees> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from kees
<soren> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from soren
<mdz> #endvote
<pitti> and VNC
<meetingology> Voting ended on: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/12.04/LTS-Proposal
<meetingology> Votes for:5 Votes against:0 Abstentions:1
<meetingology> Motion carried
<mdz> who's chairing next?
<mdz> I thought we were going by nick order, but pitti was before me
<cjwatson> first name I think
<cjwatson> which would be Soren then?
<mdz> ah
<mdz> soren, can you make it?
<mdz> 23 Jan
<mdz> I'll assume so
<mdz> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Jan  9 22:04:33 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-01-09-20.58.moin.txt
<mdz> soren, if you can't make it, please find a sub :-)
<mdz> thanks all
<stgraber> mdz: thanks for chairing!
<mdz> np, sorry we didn't get to everything on the agenda
<pitti> thanks all, and good night everyone!
<soren> Sorry, my daughter woke up :(
<soren> ..again now. Argh.
<JanC> soren: read all of your IRC backlogs to her, I'm sure she'll fall asleep while you're doing that  ;)
<soren> JanC: So will I :)
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-01-10
<oscalation> Evening.
<head_victim> Evening all, who's here for the Asia/Oceania membership board meeting?
<sagaci> present
<elky> hi
<oscalation> Evening.
<oscalation> head_victim, I am.
<elky> lifeless, freeflyi1g, Destine?
<head_victim> Cool and here comes Destine
<elky> aha, so it is
<77CAAJT4F> elky, i am destine... sorry... wrong with my xchat...
<lifeless> elky: in budapest sorry
<elky> lifeless, no prob
<elky> oops.
<head_victim> Ok so we have 3 board members, just need one more for quorum
<oscalation> Everyone doing ok?
<elky> lifeless, is there anyone there on an rmb who is able to participate?
<elky> or any membership board?
<head_victim> ejat was just around but disconnected 15 mins fbefore the meeting
<elky> i prodded him on facebook
 * tumbleweed is vaguely here (developer membership board) but I have to run away in 30 mins
<elky> lets try at least, thanks tumbleweed
<head_victim> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Jan 10 10:15:38 2012 UTC.  The chair is head_victim. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<head_victim> #chairs elky Destine
<head_victim> #chair elky Destine
<meetingology> Current chairs: Destine elky head_victim
<head_victim> Sorry
<head_victim> ok
<head_victim> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/AsiaOceania
<head_victim> The usual place for the agenda
<head_victim> I can't see bonepyaesone again tonight so we'll move along, everyone happy if I email them and remove them from the list and request they reapply later? This is the 3rd meeting in a row they haven't attended
<oscalation> sounds good to me
<head_victim> elky, Destine you ok with that course of action?
<elky> yep, we can return to them if they return
<head_victim> Ok and ok with removing and emailing them to reapply when able, since it's 3 meetings in a row they've missed?
<head_victim> Or jsut leave them there
<Destine> head_victim, ok.
<Destine> head_victim, just return.
<head_victim> ok I can't see vibhave either, we'll move along
<head_victim> #topic sagaci
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: sagaci
<sagaci> Hi
<head_victim> Good evening sagaci, please introduce yourself to the board members  in a sentence or two sum up your application :)
<head_victim> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JoelPickett
<sagaci> Hi, I'm Joel Pickett I'm 24 and an Ubuntu enthusiast residing in Australia and thus help out with the ubuntu-au loco team. My main contribution to the ubuntu ecosystem has been to en_AU translation
<head_victim> And just for the others who aren't as familiar with your work I'd like to point out your karma points
<head_victim> #link https://launchpad.net/~jpickett/+karma
<elky> can you tell us what you've done in the translations in the past few months, sagaci?
<sagaci> lot of long nights :)
 * elky might already know :P
<sagaci> I started translations around March/April (mostly from head_victim's translation Jam) and have just taken a stab at getting the job done
<elky> how far did you get?
<sagaci> I started to set minor goals of completion, and as time went past, I started to realise that it was possible to get it "all" done
<sagaci> we've got 2 untranslated strings out of ~360,000, which are a system glitch and can't be translated anyway
<elky> And, translation in the case of localised english is going through and doing what?
<sagaci> we went from around 45% done to 99.999 done in a cycle and a half, roughly
<sagaci> changing specific strings from en_US to en_AU... thus words such as dialog, localized, color, meter and a few others
<elky> :)
<head_victim> And how have you contributed to the AU loco?
<sagaci> I've chaired the ubuntu-au meetings since june, (bi-monthly) actually with Joel Addison
<Destine> sagaci, sounds good.
<elky> Destine, tumbleweed, do you have any further questions?
<Destine> elky, nope.
<sagaci> I've prepared meeting, events (such as the translation jam for the oneiric cycle), and organised the en_AU localised ISO project
<head_victim> #voters elky Destine tumbleweed head_victim
<meetingology> Current voters: Destine elky head_victim tumbleweed
<head_victim> #votesrequired 1
<meetingology> votes now need 1 to be passed
<elky> +1
<head_victim> #vote Please vote on sagaci (Joel Pickett)'s membership application
 * elky prods the bot
<meetingology> Please vote on: Please vote on sagaci (Joel Pickett)'s membership application
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<elky> ah
<head_victim> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from head_victim
<elky> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from elky
<head_victim> Sorry was still setting up
<Destine> +1 good to have such solid contribution.
<meetingology> +1 good to have such solid contribution. received from Destine
<elky> head_victim, it's different to the old one, i always forget
<elky> tumbleweed?
<tumbleweed> sorry, having network trouble
<tumbleweed> back on 3G now
<tumbleweed> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from tumbleweed
<head_victim> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Please vote on sagaci (Joel Pickett)'s membership application
<meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<elky> YAY!
<sagaci> awesome
<oscalation> Nice
<Destine> congrats!
<head_victim> Welcome to Ubutnu membership sagaci :)
<popey> congrats sagaci
<sagaci> thanks all
<head_victim> In the interests of maintaining quorum we'll quickly proceed to the next applicant
<head_victim> #topic oscalation
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: oscalation
<head_victim> oscalation: can you please give us a brief introduction to yourself and your contributions while we read over your wiki application
<oscalation> Sure.
<oscalation> Hello, Im Nathan aka Oscalation. My wiki page is found here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/oscalation. Im active in Launchpad answers and Ubuntu Documentation. Ive found that answering questions on Launchpad usually is tied with Fixing or updating Ubuntu doc pages. I have just hit my 3K Karma threshold and look forward to hitting 6k. Im active in my local community as the go to computer guy and promote and suggest Ubuntu on a regular Basis.
<head_victim> sagaci: well done
<head_victim> oscalation: my first question is about testimonials, I notice there were  several email testimonials but none listed on your wiki page.
<head_victim> And none of them were very specific as to what your actions were
<Destine> head_victim, and they look quite alike.
<oscalation> Yeah. I didnt notice that testimonials were excepted on your personal wiki page until the other night.  I spoke with a few friends and asked them kindly if they would support my Membership application by following the instruction on the Membership page.
<oscalation> Send an email to the mailing list.
<elky> What's the significance of the number 1465?
<oscalation> Just a common string I use when registering email address's
<elky> Such as one of the email addresses that sent a testimony?
<oscalation> Its possible. I have a few friends and family members that ive assisted with setting up free email accounts on gmail / yahoo.
<elky> oscalation, we prefer testimonials from other ubuntu contributors telling us how an applicant participates in the community.
<head_victim> oscalation: sorry for taking a while, we're having to do a bit of research as the testimonials weren't very specific on your involvements, can you tell us how you cotnribute to your loco?
<tumbleweed> I also would really prefer testimonials from ubuntu members (or people we know from the community)
<Destine> tumbleweed, i can't agree more.
<oscalation> I see. In this case I have had users that I have supported or helped personally send in testimonials. There personal contributions I cannot account for but I do know that I should have a least one testimonial from a well known Ubuntu Member
<Destine> oscalation, does not have to be a well known member. a member will be fine.
<oscalation> A member being an official member of the Ubuntu Membership team?
<oscalation> Or just a user of Ubuntu?
<elky> anyone active enough to be recognisable to us, really
<Destine> oscalation, yes.
<head_victim> Well I think we're all starting to float around the same idea. Would I be safe in assuming we'd probably like to see more documentation of contributions to ensure their significant and sustained before approving?
<oscalation> I may have a testimonial from ActionParsenip
<oscalation> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ActionParsnip
<oscalation> Not certain though i may
<head_victim> #vote oscalation (Nathan Heafner)'s Ubuntu Membership Application
<meetingology> Please vote on: oscalation (Nathan Heafner)'s Ubuntu Membership Application
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<tumbleweed> -0 I do see good activity on launchpad. But I'd really like to e endorsement from ubuntu members
<tumbleweed> err  he doesn't do -0
<tumbleweed> +0
<meetingology> +0 received from tumbleweed
 * tumbleweed runs away offline
<oscalation> How many +1's do i need?
<head_victim> +0 I would like to see more testimonials giving details of involvement activities rather than general comments
<meetingology> +0 I would like to see more testimonials giving details of involvement activities rather than general comments received from head_victim
<Destine>  +0 i would like to see recognizable testimonials.
<Destine> +0 sorry.
<meetingology> +0 sorry. received from Destine
<oscalation> The testimonials is unfair, your request isnt clearly listed as a requirement
<elky> -0 recognisable testimonials that better document participation are needed
<oscalation> "If you have questions or wish to give private testimonials email ubuntu-membership-boards@lists.ubuntu.com (your message may initially be held for moderation) "
<elky> +0 recognisable testimonials that better document participation are needed
<meetingology> +0 recognisable testimonials that better document participation are needed received from elky
<head_victim> oscalation: but your wiki application doesn't actually give us much in the way of specifics. If you had some testimonials from the people in the testing team or the documentation team outlineing your contributions that would really help
<Destine> oscalation, I think you can return on the next meeting carrying enough recognizable testimonials. we can assess them latter.
<elky> oscalation, "this dude answered my questions" isn't the right kind of testimonial for "sustained and significant contribution"
<oscalation> While I cant control what users sent in as testimonials, I would think that any sent in would be taken into consideration. Again the users im assisting locally generally speaking are users looking for assistance, not users making outstanding contributions back to Ubuntu.
<elky> You got a 0, not a -1
<head_victim> oscalation: and that's fine but membership requires significant and sustained contributions. Helping family members out with their computers is not a significant contribution. Helping out the testing team with ISO testing or the documentation team with updating documentation over a sustained period is.
<oscalation> ?There are many different ways of contributing to Ubuntu. Contributions are valued and recognized whether you contribute to artwork, any of the LoCoTeams, documentation, providing support on the forums, the answers tracker, IRC support, bug triage, translation, development and packaging, marketing and advocacy, contributing to the wiki, or anything else."
<elky> oscalation, if your contributions are significant and sustained, then you can put the skills you apply to documenting on listing in fine detail what exactly you do on your application page for next time.
<elky> Arguing the point with us is not going to endear us for the next attempt.
<head_victim> oscalation: it's not uncommon for people to not pass on the first attempt. All we have requested tonight is to take on board the suggestion that is' hard for us to determine if your contributions are sugnificant and sustained at this point in time with the information we have been presented.
<Destine> oscalation, you are always welcome on the next meeting.
<oscalation> It's my personal opinion that my launchpad page shows sustained contributions. Maybe im wrong.
<elky> oscalation, it's our opinion that matters here.
<oscalation> elky, understood. I move to retract my membership application.
<head_victim> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: oscalation (Nathan Heafner)'s Ubuntu Membership Application
<meetingology> Votes for:0 Votes against:0 Abstentions:4
<meetingology> Motion denied
<head_victim> Sorry I meant to do that before
<oscalation> Is there an appeals process?
<head_victim> oscalation: you have to understand, we only have 10 minutes to evaluate your entire performance, going back and reworking the wiki page shouldn't be too difficult to manage to provide a more complete application so we can accurately see your contributions.
<oscalation> I understand head_victim , and I appreciate the guidance. Thanks for your time.
<oscalation> I will re-apply for the next meeting if thats ok.
<Destine> oscalation, you are always welcome.
<head_victim> oscalation: by all means, please make sure you have more information at the ready
<oscalation> You want more work in Ubuntu docs listed on my wiki?
<head_victim> oscalation: your launchpad page suggests you're in the testing and documentation teams so I thought if you'd contributed to them it would be helpful to list them
<Destine> oscalation, yes.
<oscalation> Do my contributions to Launchpad currently show as sustained and significant?
<head_victim> And if you knew someone in either of those teams who've seen your contributions then get them to add a testimonial thtat they can sign
<oscalation> I swore actionparsnip sent in a testimonial. Maybe not though.
<head_victim> oscalation: answers in and of themselves are hard to gauge due to the fact we can't be sure that they've all been helpful without going through each one of them ourselves.
<head_victim> So if there is someone that has seen you assist others over a period of time and can vouch for the quality of your answers that would really help as well
<popey> oscalation: I'd recommed updating your wiki page. it's quite thin
<oscalation> My contrubtions to my local community are also hard to gauge as the users them-self generally speaking contribute nothing back as they are users looking for assistance, not looking to help.
<head_victim> oscalation: well to use an example, the previous applicant had chaired meetings, organised events, run ubuntu user days, that sort of thign
<popey> photos help too âº
<oscalation> These are my neighbors from my local town hall, not three friends in my basement might I add.
<popey> you keep your friends in your basement?
<elky> oscalation, in that case we'd be looking for installfests or institutions mailing us to tell us how much you helped them, not all the handful of people whose email addresses you set up.
<oscalation> I actually slimmed down my wiki page because the application process states "A summary of your contributions to Ubuntu (no longer than 2-3 lines) "
<oscalation> elky, that would seem to indicate that this type of contribution is meaningless
<Destine> oscalation, they are indeed valued.
<Destine> oscalation, but we need proof.
<elky> oscalation, membership is supposed to signify exceptional contribution.
<head_victim> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Jan 10 11:11:23 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-01-10-10.15.moin.txt
<head_victim> That is only because we've gone over time, if you want to discuss further here please do so
<oscalation> Understood. Unfortunately you are stating my assistance to my local members are hard to gauge, the same with Launchpad answers, and my testimonials were not credible. Maybe next time.
<sagaci> thanks to the board and tumbleweed for donating time and effort
<elky> sagaci, congrats again :)
<Destine> sagaci, congrats.
<head_victim> oscalation: it's hard to gauge without some evidence is what we're saying.
<oscalation> When is the next Meeting?
<iceroot> oscalation: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar
<head_victim> oscalation: every month :) There are other boards in other areas. There is an Americas and a European board as well if those times suit better.
<ashickur-noor> Is the meeting finished?
<head_victim> ashickur-noor: yes, 15 minutes ago
<ashickur-noor> Can I get the log?
<head_victim> !logs
<ubottu> Official channel logs can be found at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/ . LoCo channels are now logged there too; for older LoCo channel logs, see http://logs.ubuntu-eu.org/freenode/
<head_victim> ashickur-noor: that should have the channel logs :) It's publicly available
<ashickur-noor> Hum
<ashickur-noor> 1 person has accepted today
<elky> ashickur-noor, yep
<ashickur-noor> It's fine
<Vibhav> Has the meeting ended?
<MrChrisDruif> Vibhav; what meeting?
<Vibhav> Asia oceania membership board
<MrChrisDruif> About 3,5 hours late Vibhav
<MrChrisDruif> I think, unless they moved it?
<ashams> is membership meeting next?
<pangolin> ashams: which board?
<ashams> pangolin, EMEA
<pangolin> that was 9 hours ago or so.
<ashams> wasn't it on 20:00 UTC
<Pendulum> EMEA was last week
<ashams> isn't it*
<Pendulum> EMEA meets the first Tuesday of the month at 20:00
<Pendulum> (I was just looking at the fridge calendar)
<ashams> Pendulum, no it was delayed for the vacation
<Pendulum> and they didn't move it on the fridge?
<pangolin> fridge doesn't always reflect actual times
<ashams> didn't look
<Pendulum> pangolin: yeah, but it usually has correct dates
<pangolin> but in any case there was a meeting 9 hours ago
<Pendulum> that was Asia/Oceania
<pangolin> oh, right
<pangolin> hmm don't know then
<Pendulum> ashams: if there's an EMEA meeting then it'd be in 30 minutes
<ashams> Pendulum, I guess so, thanks
<pleia2> they had their meeting on the 3rd
<pleia2> http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2012/01/03/%23ubuntu-meeting.html#t20:10
<pleia2> where did you read it was delayed?
<ashams> pleia2, from the meeting at 6 Dec
<ashams> and some email somewhere
<ashams> heh, sorry my inbox is jammed
<pleia2> looks like they talked about it in the meeting but I don't see a formal decision
<pleia2> sorry for the confusion :(
<pleia2> there is an Americas board meeting next week if you can attend that one: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/Americas
<ashams> pleia2, yes, they had that meeting on Jan 3rd, looks like I'll attend the Americas meeting instead, though, the EMEA page needs to be updated, in deed, can I do it on my way to remove my name?
<pleia2> ashams: I'll give them a nudge to update it :)
<ashams> ok, thanx
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-01-11
<benonsoftware> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Jan 11 00:00:51 2012 UTC.  The chair is benonsoftware. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<benonsoftware> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/Meetings
<MrChrisDruif> o/
<benonsoftware> Raise your hands with o/ if your here :P
<Silverlion> o/
<cprofitt> 0/
<MrChrisDruif> \o
<MrChrisDruif> o7
<benonsoftware> Anyone else around?
<MrChrisDruif> Unit193; ?
<MrChrisDruif> 3 members/active people  isn't a very good way to meet
<benonsoftware> Yeah
<cprofitt> All meetings are good...
<cprofitt> if you don't hold meetings... then more people can not join
<benonsoftware> stlsaint has the first topic and he isn't in here
<cprofitt> lets keep ourselves focused on the positive and move this forward
<MrChrisDruif> Alright, let's get this meeting started.
<MrChrisDruif> I've got a date with my bed and I'm late
<benonsoftware> Shall we move to the 2nd topic
<cprofitt> lets go to the next topic and then see if stl shows up
<benonsoftware> [TOPIC] Team Reports - benonsoftware
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Team Reports - benonsoftware
 * Silverlion too ^^ 
 * pleia2 waves
<benonsoftware> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/TeamReports
<benonsoftware> The Team Reports havn't been updated for a while now
<MrChrisDruif> Ghehe...8 march ^_^
<benonsoftware> Should we have them or not at all?
<pleia2> the link to the team reports are included in Ubuntu Weekly News once a month, so people are reading them and it's a really good way to get word out about your project
<MrChrisDruif> Is still from before the restructuring
<cprofitt> benonsoftware: I think that having team reports is good...
<pleia2> additionally it helps team members who have been gone catch up on what's been going on since they were last available, which would have been very useful for this team
<benonsoftware> I think the same cprofitt
<cprofitt> but if you are going to do it... you need to ensure it is done regularly
<benonsoftware> Yes
<cprofitt> In the NY loco I have struggled to find a person willing to take on that responsibility...
<benonsoftware> So who is to do them?
<pleia2> what's worked best for teams I'm on is assigning one person who is responsible for making sure it gets done (they don't need to do it themselves, but nudge team members to update it, perhaps an email to the team once a month to remind people to add their items)
<cprofitt> and I think it needs to be specifically assigned to a single person (as pleia2 just said). :-)
<benonsoftware> pleia2: Yes, thats what the Ubuntu-AU team does
<benonsoftware> We have 2 people doing it in case someone can't do it for a month
 * MrChrisDruif is falling asleep. Sorry guys!
<ashickur-noor> Hi, is the meeting started?
<benonsoftware> ashickur-noor: Yes
<MrChrisDruif> ashickur-noor; yup
<ashickur-noor> thnx
<benonsoftware> I'm happy to do it for a few months
<benonsoftware> and I am happy to train people to do it
<ashickur-noor> o/
<cprofitt> is there anyone else present that would be interested in taking on the task of team reports?
<cprofitt> again -- this is not writing it, but making sure it gets done
<benonsoftware> If someone would like help with it I can show you what to do
<ashickur-noor> I can help
 * benonsoftware will do it if no-one puts there hand up
<ashickur-noor> but I don't know what to do
<benonsoftware> ashickur-noor: Thats ok, are you free after the meeting?
<cprofitt> chair /action benonsoftware and ashickur-noor will take on the responsibility of ensuring the team reports get done on a monthly basis
<ashickur-noor> Yap
<benonsoftware> #action benonsoftware and ashickur-noor will take on the responsibility of ensuring the team reports get done on a monthly basis
<meetingology> ACTION: benonsoftware and ashickur-noor will take on the responsibility of ensuring the team reports get done on a monthly basis
<ashickur-noor> How long It will take?
<benonsoftware> Not long
<benonsoftware> As stlsaint isn't here yet, are there any other reminders/topics anyone wants to add?
<ashickur-noor> Coz I need to sleep and then goto office
 * bodhi_zazen waves
<benonsoftware> bodhi_zazen: Do you have any other topics to add?
<pleia2> reminder that User Days is on Saturday, lots of BT people contributing sessions :) https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UserDays
 * benonsoftware is :P
<ashickur-noor> how is instruct there from here?
<bodhi_zazen> no, but I did notice the contributions of the BT over the last few weeks as well as to User Days, thank you
<cprofitt> pleia2: very full docket -- nice to see
<benonsoftware> Anyone else who wants to add anything
<benonsoftware> Sorry
<benonsoftware> Shall I #endmeeting now?
<cprofitt> unless bodhi_zazen wants to talk about ops
<bodhi_zazen> what is wrong with ops ?
<benonsoftware> Not sure, the topic was OPs within BT Channels
<benonsoftware> Shall we defer it until the next meeting?
<bodhi_zazen> No, unless there is a problem it is a non-issue
<bodhi_zazen> If someone added it to the agenda and did not show up -> end of issue
<benonsoftware> I'll end meeting now
<benonsoftware> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Jan 11 00:22:18 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-01-11-00.00.moin.txt
 * benonsoftware goes and updates the wiki page for new meeting
<pleia2> thanks benonsoftware
<benonsoftware> No problems
<bodhi_zazen> +1
<benonsoftware> 8th is the next meeting correct?
<ashickur-noor> I am not sure :-S
<benonsoftware> Should be
<bodhi_zazen> ugg .. 8th is horrible for me
<benonsoftware> Same
<benonsoftware> Unless if I get a break during school :P
<Unit193> I'm here now
<benonsoftware> Unit193: Missed it :P
<Unit193> I know
<Unit193> bodhi_zazen: stl was thinking that two wasn't enough. There was a time you weren't here and I wasn't up (I do sleep every now and then)
<benonsoftware> What TZ are you two in?
<Unit193> TZ doesn't matter as I have weird hours, but I'll take this up in -team (in a few minutes)
<benonsoftware> Ok
<ashickur-noor> http://goo.gl/GWqu5 is not working
<ashickur-noor> sorry for that
<bodhi_zazen> We probably do not have enough traffic to need many ops, but if there is a general consensus that there is a need we can add.
<bodhi_zazen> It has been a long time since I have seen trolling in our -team channel
 * slangasek waves
 * barry blinks
<jodh> o/
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Jan 11 16:03:33 2012 UTC.  The chair is slangasek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Lightning round
<slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e cjwatson barry doko stgraber jodh ev bdmurray slangasek)
<slangasek> bdmurray doko slangasek barry stgraber jodh cjwatson ev
<slangasek> bam
<ev> win!
<bdmurray> updated update-manager to call ubuntu-bug directly when an error is encountered during a distribution upgrade
<bdmurray> setup ubuntu-bugcontrol as the bug supervisor for wubi
<bdmurray> worked with defect analysts regarding bug workflow diagram
<bdmurray> wrote bug pattern for foreign language versions of bug 545790
<bdmurray> reviewed bug pattern from bryce for xorg transitions
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 545790 in dpkg (Ubuntu) "package PACKAGE failed to install/upgrade: error writing to '<standard output>': Success" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/545790
<bdmurray> filed bug 914220 regarding blocking some crash reports after discussion with pitti
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 914220 in apport (Ubuntu) "crash reports with DBus.Error.NoReply should be blacklisted" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/914220
<bdmurray> done
<slangasek> stgraber sends regrets btw, he has an ARB meeting - will poke him for status afterwards
<slangasek> doko:
<doko> - python2.7 and python3.2 updates, fixing testsuite failures, enabling lto builds
<doko> - first step at packaging python3.3
<doko> - eglibc-2.15 update, available in the ubuntu-toolchain-r/glibc ppa
<doko> - kubuntu cleanup :-(
<doko> - MIR's and syncs
<doko> - ralley
<doko> done
<slangasek> doko: "kubuntu cleanup"?
<slangasek> is that about MIRs, or something else?
<slangasek>  * Fix hdparm policy on battery to ensure we spin the disk down
<slangasek>  * Track down desktop bugs causing my disk to spin up when on battery
<slangasek>  * Patch the resolvconf package to better integrate with precise
<slangasek>  * fix ia32-libs to not pull in daemons and debconf questions on upgrade
<slangasek>  * testing new apt update to fix bug #850264
<slangasek>  * drum up volunteers for +1 maint team; two found so far, will continue to hunt people tomorrow here in Budapest
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 850264 in apt (Ubuntu Precise) "given a foreign architecture of i386 on amd64 machine, and an outdated libc, apt tries to remove libc-bin" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/850264
<doko> giving back failed builds with incomplete build dependencies
<slangasek> ah
<slangasek> barry: you're up
<barry> fixed dbus packaging bug that caused dbus-python test suite to sigabort.  updated blueprint with update-manager dependencies for porting to py3.  currently working on feedparser (upstream supports it, needs packaging, but upstream test suite fails under python 2.7, so...).  dbus-python branch reviewed upstream - some changes were made which i need to review, but it should be ready for merging. did some "consulting" with launchpad folks re:
<barry> mail archive project. done.
<stgraber> - Testing tracker
<stgraber>  - Finished results API by adding the update() function
<stgraber>  - Add a new bugs.get_list(milestoneid) call returning a list of bugs for a milestone
<stgraber>  - Improve the top testers report a bit
<stgraber> - Networking
<stgraber>  - Talked with cyphermox about the right way of dealing with VPN and dnsmasq
<stgraber>  - Did a few more IPv6 testing for the privacy extension change, cyphermox's patch has now been uploaded in the Ubuntu kernel!
<stgraber>  - Poked at a fix in network-manager-openvpn to properly deal with reconnects (openvpn doesn't make that easy ...)
<stgraber>  - Started merging ifupdown from Debian experimental (moving from alpha1 to beta1)
<stgraber> - ARB
<stgraber>  - Mailing-list cleanup
<stgraber>  - Helped packaging the askubuntu unity lense
<stgraber>  - Spent time dealing with Myapps/Software-Center for the first extras.u.c upload for 11.10
<stgraber> - Containers
<stgraber>  - Helped moving cgroup-lite to its own source package, uploaded, promoted to main and added as a dependency of libvirt-bin
<stgraber>  - Started working on a fixed util-linux using Serge's patch
<stgraber> - Other
<stgraber>  - Merged wxwidgets2.8, took quite a while but we're now very very close to Debian again
<stgraber>  - Added a post-stop script to dbus so the system bus gets restarted when it crashes
<stgraber>  - Helped with some ubiquity bugs, talked with didrocks about getting oneconf into Ubiquity, might get a prototype later this week
<stgraber> (done)
<barry> stgraber: wxwidgets \o/
<jodh> Finished work on mountall change to not mount already mounted FSs
<jodh> with stgraber. Working on bug 566818 and bug 912558 (both still in
<jodh> progress).
<jodh> â
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 566818 in plymouth (Ubuntu Maverick) "Cryptsetup passphrase prompt during boot: every character typed repeats the prompt" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/566818
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 912558 in upstart (Ubuntu Precise) "log.c Assert failed - err=>number == EIO" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/912558
<cjwatson> Sent stgraber a basic libnewt-based UI for friendly-recovery.
<cjwatson> Wrote new auto-sync script which doesn't rely on shell access to cocoplum, just in time for DIF.  Cleaned up small amounts of breakage that resulted from a related Launchpad bug.
<cjwatson> Added lucid apt/python-apt backports to precise alternate CDs.
<cjwatson> Started to convert things to gnutls28, then realised that was a bad idea for precise (see ubuntu-devel@).
<cjwatson> Fixed live filesystem build breakage yesterday.
<cjwatson> Added lucid installer images with natty and oneiric backported kernels; arranged for these to be available on lucid DVDs.
<cjwatson> Cleaned up some easy "send information to people" work items.
<cjwatson> Started work on a script to data-mine build times from Launchpad.  Less convenient than expected because the API doesn't expose this yet.
<cjwatson> Converted other archive admin processes away from sync-source.py; submitted LP branch to remove the latter, all its works, and all its empty promises.
<cjwatson> ..
<cjwatson> Oh, and discussed desired new-world-order backport semantics with broder.
<slangasek> stgraber: ifupdown> fwiw, Andrew Shadura had pinged me about getting my ifquery patch rebased (Debian bug #568479) - so if and when you get that merge done, let me know
<ubottu> Debian bug 568479 in ifupdown "ifupdown: please add an 'ifquery' that can authoritatively parse /etc/network/interfaces" [Wishlist,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/568479
<ev> - Short week; holiday through Thursday.
<ev> - Getting caught up on a month of emails. Reminding myself what it is I do here :-(
<ev> - Packaged and uploaded whoopsie-daisy, the crash reporter and database for
<ev>   Ubuntu.
<ev> - Bug fixes to the crash reporting daemon.
<ev> - Fixed build dependencies for whoopsie-daisy.
<cjwatson> Can't be that far back, I rebased it for alphawhateveritwas
<ev> - Talked to Matthew about the best path forward for recovering from a failed
<ev>   upgrade. He had continuing the upgrade from ubiquity using apt-clone.  I
<ev>   suggested this was less than ideal, as it's a fundamentally different
<ev>   upgrade mechanism from what they started with.  I suggested he talk to
<ev>   Michael and Robert Ancell (who's doing the better recovery spec) about
<ev>   looking for a broken dpkg early at boot and running dpkg --configure -a or
<ev>   what-have-you.
<ev> - Added an upstart job to whoopsie.
<ev> - Moved to txstatsd for the web frontend metrics submission.
<ev> - Moved from mod_python to mod_wsgi.
<slangasek> stgraber: util-linux> fixed wrt what?
<ev> - Main Inclusion Request for whoopsie-daisy (LP: #913694).
<ev> - Put in my request to attend Pycon.
<ev> - Added bson insertion and hostname specification support to oops-repository.
<ev> - Tried to get oops-repository's test harness working. Ran face first into
<ev>   http://bugs.python.org/issue7559
<ev> - Added core submission support.
<ev> - Investigation around the retracer.  Because we need to unbase64, unzip, and
<ev>   read the architecture out from core dump, it may make more sense to have two
<ev>   RabbitMQ queues.  The first will process the core files as they've been
<ev>   recieved by the user (first written to a SAN).  The path to this resulting
<ev>   unpacked core file will be put on an architecture-specific queue for a
<ev>   retracer to pick up.
<ev> - Added MQ publishing (for the aforementioned core processing) to the core
<ev>   submission web frontend.
<ev> - Added the aforementioned processing of core files.  Still need to retrace
<ev> (done)
<stgraber> slangasek: getty not working in containers
<slangasek> stgraber: ah yes, ack
<slangasek> ok
<slangasek> any questions on status all around?
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Bugs
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Bugs
<bdmurray> just one bug today - bug 914794
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 914794 in update-manager (Ubuntu) "Gdk-CRITICAL errors output when updating from command line" [Medium,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/914794
<barry> bdmurray: i guess this happens when you start u-m from the cli?  i think i've seen this
<slangasek> hrm, lots of fun error messages in there
<bdmurray> yes, I saw some of the messages doing it on precise
<bdmurray> so this one Gdk-CRITICAL **: gdk_window_get_pointer: assertion `GDK_IS_WINDOW (window)' failed
<slangasek> so the gtk warning is weird in its own right, but I don't see any way that it would be a multiarch problem
<slangasek> so I think this is probably a bug w/ the desktop stack
<bdmurray> okay, I'll follow up with somebody there
<slangasek> bdmurray: can we punt that over for the desktop team to look at?
<slangasek> thanks
<slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<jodh> evince throws exactly the same msg on the cli fwiw.
<slangasek> right - and evince isn't ours :-)
<slangasek> anything else today?
<ev> still trapped in the UK :-/
<broder> i think people developing on gtk are just generally bad about dealing with those messages
<slangasek> suggestions for what to include in a hungarian care package to send back to ev?
<cjwatson> I hear goulash posts well
<slangasek> (paprika and palinka)
<doko> tokaij
<cjwatson> * may not actually be true
<ev> an entire spa would be nice
<doko> I have a very quiet non-snoring roomie here =)
<slangasek> doko: every time I buy a bottle of tokaji the contents mysteriously drain out
<slangasek> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Jan 11 16:24:39 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-01-11-16.03.moin.txt
<slangasek> thanks guys :)
<ev> cheers!
 * barry somehow wants lunch now
 * txomon|nqas would like a fresh beer, but ha, its working, thus, will have to wait
<txomon|nqas> isn't there any qa meeting?
<txomon|nqas> s/any/supposed to be a/
<balloons> txomon|nqas, yes there is a qa meeting in 4 mins
<txomon|nqas> ah I thought it was at 5'30
<balloons> 17:00 :-)
<balloons> starting meetings on the half-hour is always confusing n'est pas?
<balloons> hello phillw
<phillw> hiyas
<gema> hello QA team!
<txomon|nqas> hi gema !
<phillw> hi gema :)
<gema> sorry i am late, I lost track of time
<phillw> ditto :)
<gema> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Jan 11 17:04:06 2012 UTC.  The chair is gema. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<gema> so who is present today on the meeting?
 * txomon|nqas is here
 * charlie-tca seems to be here today
<phillw> o/
 * balloons present and accounted for
<jibel> hi o/
 * gema is getting everyone to answer :D
<hggdh> ~Ã´~
<nuclearbob> howdy
<leworks> ~w
<nuclearbob> er
<nuclearbob> szia
<gema> good, let's get started then
<gema> [TOPIC] Previous Actions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Previous Actions
<gema> phillw: do we have any pending action from last week?
<phillw> gema: just that one carried over action.
<gema> patrickmw: you created this link, didn't you?
<patrickmw> yes, let me grab that
<patrickmw> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Automation
<gema> cool, thanks
<alourie> hi there
<gema> hi alourie
<balloons> hello alourie
<gema> alourie: could you make sure that links makes it to the front of our wiki?
<gema> patrickmw: thanks a lot
<alourie> gema: sorry?
<gema> the link that patrickmw just pasted
<gema> with links to all the projects and test code
<patrickmw> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Automation
<alourie> ah, sure
<alourie> it's there
<gema> thanks
<patrickmw> :)
<patrickmw> indeed
<alourie> I will
<gema> so that action is dealt with
<gema> let's move on
<gema> [TOPIC] Blueprints Updates and Community Tasks
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Blueprints Updates and Community Tasks
<gema> we are going to do the update quickly today
<gema> alourie: do you have any update?
<alourie> gema: I've been working on wiki update, so I can see you and Nicholas have looked at it
<alourie> I am now more happy with the structure and the content
<gema> excellent, we love the changes but are confused by the duality
<alourie> so I think we're ready for feedback and replacing the main page
<gema> so merging it would be good
<alourie> yea
<balloons> alourie, yep, I think so
<balloons> much less confusing now
<alourie> balloons, gema: I just saw the email, will read it later
<gema> [ACTION] alourie to merge the new version of the wiki with the old one
<meetingology> ACTION: alourie to merge the new version of the wiki with the old one
<gema> I like actions :D
<alourie> btw, is there a way to move complete trees of wiki?
<gema> alourie: I don't think so, but not sure
<alourie> I've been playing with the idea to move some of the Testing/... to QATeam/...
<balloons> alourie, I can dig around and help you with that
<balloons> I was looking into it this afternoon mysel
<balloons> *myself
<alourie> balloons: well, it's wiki, so it kinda should be possible
<balloons> no promises there's an easy way :-)
<balloons> right.. export and import if nothing else
<gema> in any case, we may want to do a copy&paste, whichever way
<alourie> gema, balloons: or we can leave it as it is
<alourie> and just link properly
<alourie> let me work on it a bit
<alourie> and finally
<gema> alourie: you got it, make sure balloons help you with that
<alourie> there's a lot of obsolete stuff there
<gema> alourie: remove it
<alourie> which is no longer relevant
<gema> it is confusing
<alourie> gema: yes, that's my point
<alourie> maybe not remove per se, but "archive" of a sort
<gema> alourie: if you don't feel comfy with it, I will grab the axe
 * txomon|nqas laughs
<alourie> gema: oh, don't worry
<gema> alourie: it's a wiki, there's history there
<alourie> I worry that my axe could be too large :-)
<gema> don't worry and remove it
<alourie> gema: sure
<alourie> I'm done
<gema> ok
<alourie> ...
<gema> txomon|nqas: do you have any update?
<txomon|nqas> not refering the wiki
<gema> and referring to anything else?
<txomon|nqas> well, I would like to discuss what we already started discussing in the mail-list
<balloons> alourie, yes in general it's best to not have old content.. just confuses everyone :-)
<alourie> balloons: yea, sure
<balloons> txomon|nqas, the bug report?
<gema> txomon|nqas: you mean the bug?
<txomon|nqas> more meant to be a post, but yes
<alourie> o oh
<gema> txomon|nqas: ok, can we discuss this next week?
<alourie> :-)
<txomon|nqas> oki
<gema> place it in the agenda as an item?
<alourie> gema: please
<gema> or if you prefer, you could answer to my email
<txomon|nqas> I prefer
<alourie> gema: place it to agenda, if we solve it through mail discussion, we'll remove it
<txomon|nqas> don't know if I will be able to be here
<alourie> txomon|home: ^^
<gema> txomon|nqas: ok
<gema> let's do it by email so that everyone benefits from it
<balloons> txomon|nqas,  did you have any thoughts on possible action items to take that you wanted feedback on?
<txomon|nqas> I have been testing packages independently
<balloons> otherwise, email should work nicely
<txomon|nqas> and that for example is not quite stable
<txomon|nqas> in gnome packets dependencies missing etc
<gema> txomon|nqas: is this one of the tasks in our current list of things to do?
<gema> or something you'd like to add there?
<txomon|nqas> gema: add
<gema> txomon|nqas: ok, so make the changes on the wiki
<txomon|nqas> will
<alourie> txomon|home: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/TasksPrecise
<gema> yep
<balloons> you can find that link on the main page now, if you lose it
<txomon|nqas> oki ty
<gema> good, so from next week onwards we'll start working on it
<gema> I will wait for lubuntu and xubuntu updates for charlie-tca and phillw
<gema> so, hggdh any update from you?
 * phillw is here
 * charlie-tca too
 * gema knows, you  have your own agenda item :D
<hggdh> not from me, coming back from vacation :-)
<gema> jibel: ?
<jibel> currently working on upgrades from lucid to precise to make it as smooth as possible
<jibel> not much else to report
<gema> ok, thanks
<gema> leworks:
<gema> ?
<leworks> Nothing from me
<gema> ok, just to let you know, guys, leworks is our new QA Admin
<gema> he knows all about the lab and can run things and fix stuff
<gema> nuclearbob: ?
<nuclearbob> I've sent a number of patches to the qa-regression-testing suite, and I've been working with the kernel team to get autotest tests ported and usable on ubuntu and in the qa lab, particualrly with an eye toward develpping a process to do this in the future with less manual intervention
<gema> excellent, thank you
<gema> balloons: you are up
 * balloons ducks
<balloons> updates from me...
 * txomon|nqas Â¬Â¬ wet
<balloons> I am the new QA community coordinator here at canonical and have been introduced to the team here. I'd like to say hello as well to all of you.
 * txomon|nqas says hi!
<gema> welcome, balloons
 * alourie joins txomon|home 
<alourie> welcome balloons
<jibel> hi balloons
<charlie-tca> Welcome, balloons
<balloons> I sent around a post in Decemeber, but I am in the job now and ready to get rolling. Feel free to reach out to me with any questions/concerns/ideas for quality in ubuntu.. I see good things ahead
<hggdh> welcome balloons also!
 * gema is happy that someone is taking over the chairing... because you are balloons .. right?
<phillw> welcome balloons
<txomon|nqas> welcome balloons
<hggdh> balloons is region
<hggdh> legion
<balloons> gema, yes I will chair.. I'm sure everyone will take it easy on me while I learn meetbot
<gema> cool
<alourie> of course
 * charlie-tca thinks we take it easy on everyone :)
<balloons> hggdh, yes! so many personalities, so little time
<gema> ok
<gema> so moving on with the agenda (because we have a team dinner today and by the looks of it we are running late :P)
<gema> [TOPIC] Updates Xubuntu
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Updates Xubuntu
<gema> charlie-tca: ?
<charlie-tca> Xubuntu has the new installer working today, maybe-ubiquity
<charlie-tca> HAven't really had time to run all the images with it yet, but at least it is working on what I tried
<gema> that's good news
<balloons> that's awesome news.. hopefully it will stay stable now
<charlie-tca> Only realy bug I see is the language screen when choosing "Install Xubuntu" from the cd menu
<hggdh> do you have a bug on it?
<charlie-tca> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/911905
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 911905 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "hitting enter on install screen 1 forces language to top selection" [High,Confirmed]
<charlie-tca> ..
<gema> cool, thanks charlie-tca
<phillw> it's still there on todays build in lubuntu, charlie-tca I checked b4 the meeting
<gema> [TOPIC] Updates Lubuntu
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Updates Lubuntu
<charlie-tca> Oh, good
<phillw> nothing too major, except lxpanel eats 100% CPU time, the team are on the case
<gema> ok
<phillw> Just for information https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu/ReleaseStatus/Precise is updated weekly by our head of Dev
<gema> ok, thanks for the info
<gema> anything else from you?
<phillw> nothing, our young team are getting stuck in at lubuntu-qa
<gema> getting stuck?
<phillw> rolling their sleeves up and working :)
<balloons> phillw, that's a cool page
<gema> ahhh, ok!
<phillw> balloons: I'll pass the comment on to 'the boss' :)
<gema> excellent, so moving on to next topic
<gema> [TOPIC] Edubuntu, Ubuntu Studio, Mithbuntu
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Edubuntu, Ubuntu Studio, Mithbuntu
<gema> anyone from any of these releases that wants to give us an update?
<micahg> hmm, shouldn't that be Mythbuntu?
<ScottK> It should.
<leworks> It should
<phillw> yup
<alourie> yea
<balloons> yes, seems nice concise and too the point.. well done
<gema> yes, I got your attention!!!
 * hggdh agrees ;-)
<gema> ScottK: any update?
<ScottK> Not from me about any of those (not my thing)
<gema> ScottK: sorry, I forgot Kubuntu
<gema> :)
<astraljava> Hmmm... I'm not sure we (Ubuntu Studio) have anyone prepared for this meeting.
<astraljava> I apologize for that.
<gema> astraljava: no worries, it is good that we get to talk to you
<gema> astraljava: and start the collaboration today :)
<ScottK> Where is the meeting agenda published?
<astraljava> gema: Yes. I will try to pay more attention from now on.
<gema> astraljava: excellent, are you guys doing any testing worth mentioning at the moment?
<astraljava> gema: Not at the moment, there haven't been any big changes.
<stgraber> I'm also around but I usually post QA relevant stuff for Edubuntu to the release mailing list for our meeting on Friday, don't really have time to attend one more meeting just for QA
<phillw> ScottK: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Meetings
<ScottK> Thanks.
<gema> astraljava: ok, thanks for the update
<ScottK> Since Kubuntu isn't on the agenda, I'll just toss in that KDE SC 4.7.4 for oneiric-proposed is uploading out of my laptop right now, so we'll have that on tap for testing once it's built.
<gema> stgraber: ok, we will try to keep up with your updates there then
<hggdh> ScottK: perfect. I will be waiting ;-)
<micahg> o/
<hggdh> s/will be /am/
<phillw> ScottK: feel free to add kubuntu :)
<gema> ScottK: we'll add Kubuntu to the agenda for next week
<ScottK> OK.
<stgraber> gema: thanks. If we have anything big that deserves an agenda item for a QA meeting, I'll make sure we do it, for the usual, we closed 2 bugs and everything still installs/upgrades fine, the release mailing-list is fine.
<gema> [ACTION] balloons to add Kubuntu and Ubuntu Studio to the agenda
<meetingology> ACTION: balloons to add Kubuntu and Ubuntu Studio to the agenda
<gema> stgraber: cool, thanks
<gema> stgraber: thanks for the update
<gema> micahg: go ahead
<micahg> gema: it's not about this, but about Firefox testing, may I continue?
<gema> micahg: just a sec
<gema> we are moving to other topics now
<gema> [TOPIC] Other topics
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Other topics
<gema> micahg: you can proceed
<micahg> some background is here: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-security-announce/2012-January/001544.html
<gema> micahg: can you brief us on what you need?
<micahg> I'll be sending a call for testing e-mail later this evening to ubuntu-qa and some other lists, basically we're migration Firefox in Lucid and Maverick from 3.6.x to Rapid Release (9.0.1 ATM) and we need people to test the packages in -proposed
<gema> ok, that's good, I am sure someone will be able to undertake the testing
<gema> micahg: can you make sure that you clearly explain what type of test case you need run?
<balloons> micahg, does that mean all supported releases will be on rapid release for ff?
<micahg> balloons: yes :)
<micahg> gema: yes, I had forgotten to do that, will add before I send it out later, thanks
<micahg> ..
<gema> micahg: thanks
<gema> anything else from anyone?
<alourie> o/
<gema> alourie: go for it
<alourie> the last, I promise :-)
<alourie> #ubuntu-quality is being closed and merged into this channel, so there.
<gema> into ubuntu-meeting?
<alourie> oops
<alourie> -testing that is
<hggdh> indeed
<gema> cool, thanks
<alourie> so less duplicates here as well
<hggdh> thank you for remembering it for the record
<gema> yes, indeed
<gema> so we are closing the meeting for the day
<gema> next week balloons takes over from me the meeting chairing, I will cover for him whenever he is not available and phillw can keep covering whenever none of us is available
 * balloons +!
<gema> if anyone wants to chair, please say so , you are more than welcome
 * balloons +1
<alourie> thanks gema for chairing and have you guys a great dinner
<alourie> and welcome balloons, again :-)
<hggdh> a good night to all, then
<gema> thank you all for coming and for contributing
<gema> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Jan 11 17:49:18 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-01-11-17.04.moin.txt
<phillw> gema thanks for chairing, now you people at the sprint go and enjoy your dinner!
<astraljava> Thanks gema et al!
<charlie-tca> gema: thanks for chairing and thank you for getting things going on this.
<hggdh> cheers
<alourie> good night
 * hggdh signs off
<leworks> tchuss
<txomon|nqas> byebye!
<gema> bye!
<highvoltage> Edubuntu meeting for tonight is in #edubuntu for those who are interested :)
 * MrChrisDruif is only interested in logs ^_^
 * gilir takes a seat :)
<gilir> #startmeeting Lubuntu team meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Jan 11 20:05:46 2012 UTC.  The chair is gilir. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Lubuntu team meeting Meeting | Current topic:
<MrChrisDruif> o/
<gilir> hi :)
<MrChrisDruif> Aloha
<phillw> o/
<jmarsden|work> o/
<moergaes> MÃ¶rgÃ¦s
<bioterror> \o I'm a leftie
<MrChrisDruif> Afaik is Unit193 not able to attend
<gilir> MrChrisDruif, ok
<gilir> it should be a quick meeting today :)
<gilir> as usual, agenda is here : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu/IRC%20Meetings/Agenda
<gilir> #topic Review ACTIONS from the last meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Lubuntu team meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Review ACTIONS from the last meeting
<gilir> let's start with the teams, there are progress since last week
<gilir> most of the team are created now, and the Subteam page is update : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu/SubTeams
<gilir> it shoudl be ok to start with those, let see how it's working in the future :)
<MrChrisDruif> Yes, all the links to the launchpad pages are all there
<gilir> just, please keep a mail active, so we can reach each team if we have a topic for them :)
<gilir> at least, on the Launchpad page
<jmarsden|work> Can we remove the bit about how to join the Old Teams?  People should join the new ones, not the old ones :)
<phillw> gilir: I'm sure we all now have mailing lists from the lp pages.
<gilir> jmarsden|work, yes :)
<gilir> phillw, great :)
<gilir> ok, let's continue
<gilir> #topic Weekly report - Update from QA meeting and team
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Lubuntu team meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Weekly report - Update from QA meeting and team
<gilir> phillw, ^
<gilir> :)
<phillw> QA are at a sprint event, so a lot is going on. The iso's are now building again and we have a couple of new people in posts.
<phillw> e.g. balloons crom canonical is our admin etc. I'll have a better update next week after the sprint.
<phillw> /s/crom/from
<phillw> gilir: and just to make you blush, your weekly update report is considered to be excellent :)
<phillw> that's all from me.
<gilir> yes, it's a busy week for canonical :)
<gilir> hehe, thanks :)
<jmarsden|work> phillw: I will have a Pandaboard (for ARM testing) in about a week or so, might be able to help testing ARM images once that arrives.
<phillw> jmarsden|work: the arm team are quite busy, I'll get you patched in when you want.
<jmarsden|work> OK.
<phillw> busy as in making great strides forward!
<gilir> jmarsden|work, cool :) we can talk about this when you will have the device in your hand :)
<phillw> they are also at sprint :)
<jmarsden|work> gilir: Yes, right now it is "in the mail"
<gilir> jmarsden|work, it's christmas in january :)
<gilir> ok, thanks phillw :)
<jmarsden|work> I helped out someon people who had one but didn't know what to do with it... I volunteered to make use of it :)
<gilir> #topic Weekly report - Update on Wiki / Docs team
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Lubuntu team meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Weekly report - Update on Wiki / Docs team
<gilir> MrChrisDruif, anything new from the Doc team ?
<MrChrisDruif> No, sorry about that. Been a busy week for me personally and also with the TV team
<MrChrisDruif> I did remove the old teams from the /SubTeams page just now.
<gilir> MrChrisDruif, no problem, you have the right to report nothing :)
<MrChrisDruif> Other than that no updates.
<gilir> ok thank MrChrisDruif :)
<MrChrisDruif> =)
<gilir> I'll skip report from IRC (since Unit193 is away), and add a report from the devs
<gilir> #topic Weekly report - Devs teams report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Lubuntu team meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Weekly report - Devs teams report
<gilir> I'll assume for now the report of the team at the weekly meeting
<gilir> so this week, our software-center was accepted in ubuntu repositories :)
<MrChrisDruif> Great work gilir
<gilir> if you want to keep the last version, you can still use the PPA
<gilir> but be sure to report bugs ;)
<gilir> 2 more items are available for testing
<MrChrisDruif> Which are?
<gilir> 1Â° : the new session manager
<gilir> I send a mail some weeks ago about it
<gilir> for now, it should at least do the same that the previous version
<gilir> and I would like to have some feedback from users, to know if there no problem using it
<phillw> o/
<phillw> is this for 12.04?
<gilir> phillw, yes, the goal is to inlcude it in 12.04
<phillw> I'll get it put on my VM
<gilir> the PPA is https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-dev/+archive/staging
<gilir> thanks phillw :)
<gilir> the 2Â° item is an update of the default settings
<gilir> also available in the same PPA
<gilir> ther is some bug fixes, but also some changes that I would like to have feedbacks
<jmarsden|work> gilir: Does it kill off the default screensaver?  That's a change I'd like :)
<gilir> jmarsden|work, yes, it should :)
<jmarsden|work> Good!
<gilir> it turns the screensaver to blank by default
<gilir> we still need it to lock the screen
<jmarsden|work> Yes, makes sense.
<MrChrisDruif> Can you name some of the changed settings for 12.04 which affect users?
<gilir> changelog is at the first entry of http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop/+junk/lubuntu-default-settings/view/head:/debian/changelog
<gilir> but most importants are :
<gilir> Add a rule to maximize all new windows with type normal.
<gilir> Place new windows on the monitor with the mouse, rather than the primary monitor.
<gilir> Add a custom configuration file for xscreensaver, with blank mode by default
<gilir> probably, the most visible is the first one :)
<gilir> it means any application you launched is maximised
<gilir> I tested it on my neetbook, and it's very confortable to not manually maximised the windows you launched
<gilir> of course, it's a setting we can change in the futur, and it only affected new installation
<jmarsden|work> Ewww, not sure I like that idea... but I'll try it before I complain too much :)  Yes, but not everyone uses netbooks ...
<gilir> jmarsden|work, yes, that's why I would like some feedback before :)
<gilir> Maybe I will upload it for Alpha 2, as I said, it can be reverted
 * MrChrisDruif always maximizes windows
<jmarsden|work> Understood.
<MrChrisDruif> Even on a "big" screen
<jmarsden|work> I always leave a bit of desktop so I can right-click on it to use that menu... just different work habits.
<gilir> finally, stefano started a new program to "replace" catfish
<gilir> I didn' have time to look at it, but I doubt it will be ready for 12.04
<gilir> but it should be available in a PPA at least for testing
<MrChrisDruif> And catfish did what again?
<gilir> searching files
<gilir> sorry, forget to mention it :)
<gilir> that's all for me
<MrChrisDruif> For use in PCmanFM?
<gilir> MrChrisDruif, no, it's a separate application
<gilir> anyone other questions before I end the meeting ?
<jmarsden|work> Did we do anything about makiing it easier to autostart apps ?
<gilir> jmarsden|work, the new session manager should do a better work
<gilir> you can select application to start by type, instead of a list of commands
<jmarsden|work> OK, good.  I had a request for that from someone preparing to switch from XP to Lubuntu on a bunch of older PCs in Africa...
<gilir> so, you can disable for example the screesaver, the power-manager, even the panel if you want
<gilir> currently, the improvement sof the new session manager are :
<gilir> Add initial applications by default support (panel, screensaver ...). It's a way to configure applications started by default, rather than just adding a line in autostart
<gilir>  * Add initial options support (Keymap, XRandr, Keyring). It's the ability to add some options add start-up, like a screen resolution (instead of using a .desktop file in autostart directory).
<gilir> Add initial Dbus support (draft of org.lxde.SessionManager interface, GNOME compat mode)
<gilir> not all are completed yet, but I hope have them ready for 12.04
<jmarsden|work> Sounds good to me.
<gilir> :)
<gilir> ok, let's end the meeting for now, if you have question, we have a new shiny mailing list :p
<gilir> thanks everyone :)
<gilir> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Jan 11 20:45:02 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-01-11-20.05.moin.txt
<phillw> gilir:  thanks for chairing :)
<moergaes> Bye, everyone.
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-01-12
<NCommander> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Jan 12 15:02:34 2012 UTC.  The chair is NCommander. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<janimo> hi
<NCommander> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ARM/Meeting/2012/20120112#preview
<NCommander> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ARM/Meeting/2012/20120112
<NCommander> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ARM/Meeting/2012/20120112
<NCommander> oh give me a freaking break
 * NCommander waits for the others to arrive
 * davidm waves
<NCommander> [topic] action item review
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: action item review
<NCommander> [topic] jcrigby to update the mx53 kernel (c/o)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: jcrigby to update the mx53 kernel (c/o)
<NCommander> still no jcrigby
 * NCommander cos
<NCommander> *c/os
<NCommander> [action] NCommander to cntact jcrigby offline about mx53 kernel
<meetingology> ACTION: NCommander to cntact jcrigby offline about mx53 kernel
<NCommander> [topic] NCommander to track dependency SNAFU on status tracker and remove non-ARM specs
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: NCommander to track dependency SNAFU on status tracker and remove non-ARM specs
<NCommander> Its *slightly* better, but I haven't properly weeded the dependency tree yet
<NCommander> [topic] http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-precise/ubuntu-arm.html
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-precise/ubuntu-arm.html
<NCommander> [topic] http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-precise/ubuntu-arm.html
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-precise/ubuntu-arm.html
<infinity> Regarding mx53 kernel, jcrigby is working on merging 3.2.0, and will include armhf support at the same time.
<NCommander> +1
<NCommander> as for burndown charts, we closed a few action this week, and reassigned a few around
<ogra_> status seriously looks bad
<NCommander> ogra_: its the dependency cruft which I need to apply weedkiller to
<NCommander> so non-ARM specs are not tracked
<ogra_> we need to perform better until FF
<GrueMaster> Mine looks good.  :P
 * NCommander whacks GrueMaster
<ogra_> sure, but we didnt close as many items as hoped during the sprint
<ogra_> (nothing we candt fix until FF indeed ;)
<NCommander> :-P
<NCommander> Anyway
<ogra_> move ;)
<NCommander> [topic] ARM Server Status (NCommander)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: ARM Server Status (NCommander)
<NCommander> No updates
<davidm> Have we postponed everything that we need to?
<ogra_> yep
<NCommander> [topic] Kernel Status (cooloney, ppisati)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Kernel Status (cooloney, ppisati)
<ogra_> ppisati, around ?
<cooloney> hey
<NCommander> ogra_ has gone to ping ppisati
<janimo> ac100 3.0 fixes uploaded, with tools package enabled
<NCommander> cooloney: anyway, any status? :-)
<ppisati> hey
<ppisati> i just submitted the kexec fixes for arm
<ogra_> great :)
<NCommander> can we have it working across more than one upload? :-)
<ppisati> about the bug tobin submitted for P/omap4, there was a missing patch
<GrueMaster> Excelent.
<infinity> ppisati: By submitted, do you mean it's being pushed to mainline?
<ppisati> next upload will fix it
<ppisati> infinity: i pulled it from mainline to our tree
<GrueMaster> Cool
 * NCommander sees ubuntu-arm-r-arm-softbootloader in my future
<infinity> ppisati: Oh, even better.
 * NCommander promptly goes to off himself
<ogra_> was that supposed to mean "offer" actually ?
<NCommander> ogra_: no, off, as in kill
<ppisati> ah, and there was even another fix for the usb "slow down problem" that Ming Lei worarounded back then
<ppisati> ARM acknwledged it was a desegin bug in the cache controller
<ogra_> nah, that surely was "offer" as in volunteering ;)
<NCommander> that spec been the bane of my existance since jaunty
<GrueMaster> Yes, saw that.
<ppisati> i pulled the fix in P
<NCommander> anyway
<NCommander> anything else?
<ppisati> that's pretty much all for now
<ppisati> iirc
<NCommander> [topic] ARM Porting/FTBFS status (NCommander, janimo)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: ARM Porting/FTBFS status (NCommander, janimo)
<NCommander> Speaking of banes of my existance
<NCommander> I've been working to port libreoffice to hardfloat
<janimo> fixed a package or two, not muchh
<NCommander> I've managed to hit it with enough of a stick that it now partially passes the internal test suite
<NCommander> A larger stick will be needed to get it working for hardfloat, probably 1-2 weeks of solid porting working but it at least looks straightforward from here
<NCommander> */tempting fate*
<infinity> I'm chasing down the status of fpc, ocamlopt, and gnat.  Still works in progress.  More to report in a couple of weeks, I hope.
<NCommander> infinity: gnat shouldn't matter, we never managed to bootstrap it on armel either
<ogra_> oh, evo seems to ftbfs on armhf
<NCommander> ARGH
<infinity> NCommander: It's fine on armel (gnat).
<NCommander> infinity: well, with gnat, you have to build a cross-compiler to armhf, then cross-bootstrap the compiler, then native build it
<NCommander> (brilliant that the only FOSS Ada compiler is written in Ada)
<infinity> NCommander: Yeah, I know.  markos has been working on a few bugs with it, apparently.
<rsalveti> also, do you all know about the porting queue webpage we created? http://bit.ly/arm-porting-queue
<NCommander> infinity: ocaml will be rather painful, given we never got it to build with thumb2 even
<rsalveti> just in case you're looking for bugs related with ftbfs
<rsalveti> together with the qa one
<NCommander> rsalveti: handy
<NCommander> infinity: fpc probably isn't that high of priority. We only managed to build it on powerpc last cycle ...
<NCommander> anyway
<NCommander> moving on
<NCommander> [topic] ARM Hardfloat status (infinity)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: ARM Hardfloat status (infinity)
<NCommander> hrm
<NCommander> I thinkI meant to kill this status section
<NCommander> [topic] ARM Image Status (ogra, NCommander)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: ARM Image Status (ogra, NCommander)
<NCommander> again, nothing to report
<NCommander> moving on
<NCommander> [topic] QA Status (GrueMaster, mahmoh)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: QA Status (GrueMaster, mahmoh)
<GrueMaster> 7 SRU kernels were tested last week (Thursday).
<GrueMaster> Now looking into automating daily image installs.  Waiting on preinstall preseed capabilities (ogra???).
<GrueMaster> That's all for me.  Back to the swamp.
<ogra_> re :P
<ogra_> GrueMaster, its on my todo for tomorrow :)
<GrueMaster> mahmoh: Anything to report on your end?
<NCommander> [topic] Linaro Updates (rsalveti)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Linaro Updates (rsalveti)
<rsalveti> not much from my side, jcrigby is working on all the pieces we need
<rsalveti> like kernel and newer u-boot
<rsalveti> so should be around probably later this week, next week
<rsalveti> other than that we got ubuntu tv ui working on panda
<NCommander> rsalveti: great. anything else or can I move on?
<rsalveti> something I blogged about on monday
<NCommander> rsalveti: el or hf? :-)
<rsalveti> el, based on oneiric
<rsalveti> we're still missing video decode
<rsalveti> but we know what needs to be done already
<rsalveti> http://rsalveti.wordpress.com/2012/01/10/ubuntu-tv-ui-at-pandaboard-and-next-steps/
<rsalveti> once it's done, and the sgx driver is available for hf, we can also make sure it's running on precise
<rsalveti> :-)
<rsalveti> that's all from my side
<NCommander> [topic] AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<NCommander> if nothing
<NCommander> will close in 3
<ogra_> go
<NCommander> 2
<NCommander> 1
<NCommander> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Jan 12 15:31:00 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-01-12-15.02.moin.txt
<cmagina> thanks
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-01-13
<ashar_ub>  guys
<Quintasan> shadeslayer: ping
<shadeslayer> here
<Quintasan> shadeslayer: gotta keep you awake :P
<shadeslayer> :)
<shadeslayer> just finishing off a minor patch to libnice ;)
<Riddell> skaet: I might have to leave but these nice Kubuntu people will do the update for the meeting
<skaet> Riddell: coolio.  :)
<mdeslaur> \o
 * skaet thinking its time now...
<skaet> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Fri Jan 13 16:31:49 2012 UTC.  The chair is skaet. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<skaet> [TOPIC] Release general overview - skaet
<skaet> Sorry for the late start - we just had the wrap up meeting for the Rally.
<skaet> Thank you to everyone who put in detailed status in the email.
<skaet> We may be loosing internet connectivity before the end of the meeting, so hopefully this can wrap up with a record time.   Please remember to .. when you're done, and o/ if you want us to pause. :)
<skaet> Agenda can be found:
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Release general overview - skaet
<skaet> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/2012-01-13
<skaet> Individual team status links will be added to it from:
<skaet> #link https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-January/thread.html
<skaet> .
<skaet> Schedule is at:
<skaet> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PrecisePangolin/ReleaseSchedule
<skaet> #link http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars/ubuntu-release-calendar/
<skaet> .
<skaet> Bugs committed to be fixed by the engineering teams can be found:
<skaet> #link http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/kernel-bugs/reports/rls-p-tracking-bugs.html
<skaet> Bugs that you would like the engineering teams to consider for fixing, should be assigned to specific teams, so they can be found.
<skaet> .
<skaet> Upcoming Dates:
<skaet> â¢ 2012/01/19 - 10.04.4 Freeze
<skaet> â¢ 2012/02/02 - Alpha 2
<skaet> â¢ 2012/02/16 - Feature Freeze
<skaet> â¢ 2012/02/16 - 10.04.4
<skaet> .
<skaet> ***WORKITEMS:***   Lots of progress this week, but we're still over the trend line for some teams.   Please review to see and mark what no longer looks possible this release.
<skaet> #link http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-precise/
<skaet> Note: There are now  2721 up from 2541 last week, originally 2084 on 2011/11/25), so figuring out now what is NOT going to happen in the next 5 weeks, and indicating blocked and postponed, would be much appreciated.
<skaet> I've started following up with some individual and teams, and will be following up with the others next week.
<skaet> .
<skaet> Next two meetings I'll be traveling/vacation and timezone incompatible with this meeting.   Martin Pitt will host on 1/20,  Steve Langasek will chair on 1/27.
<skaet> Questions?
<skaet> ..
 * skaet not seeing any hands,  so moving on to the round table.
<skaet> [TOPIC] Hardware Certification team update - mlegris
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Hardware Certification team update - mlegris
<mlegris> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-January/000695.html
<mlegris> Hi all!
<pitti> hello
<skaet> hi
<pitti> (sorry, joined on the wrong server and wondered why noone was there)
<pitti> TGIF
<mlegris> Starting our weekly testing again :)
<skaet> +1
<skaet> yay
<mlegris> no major issues found
<mlegris> any questions?
<skaet> there are 27 bugs flagged in the report,  are they all precise related or all series?
<mlegris> oneiric related that will most likely be precise related
<skaet> mlegris,  okie.   Thanks.
<mlegris> np
<skaet> [TOPIC] QA team update -  jibel
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: QA team update -  jibel
<mlegris> Any other questions?
<mlegris> .. :p
<skaet> sorry...
 * skaet doesn't see jibel in channel
<skaet> [TOPIC] Security team Q&A - mdeslaur
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Security team Q&A - mdeslaur
<mdeslaur> [LINK] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-January/000691.html
<mdeslaur> hi!
<mdeslaur> good progress on work items
<skaet> :)
<mdeslaur> nothing much else to report
<mdeslaur> any questions?
<mdeslaur> ..
<skaet> Thanks mdeslaur!  :)
<skaet> nice progress on the work items this week.
<mdeslaur> thanks :)
<skaet> [TOPIC] Kernel team Q&A - ogasawara
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Kernel team Q&A - ogasawara
<skaet> [LINK] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-January/000685.html
<skaet> The first v3.2.1 stable update was just released.  We've already rebased
<skaet> and hope to upload by end of day.  Everything else I covered in my
<skaet> email.
<skaet> ..
<skaet> (for ogasawara...)
<skaet> [TOPIC] Server team Q&A - Daviey or arosales
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Server team Q&A - Daviey or arosales
<arosales> Hello, I'll be reporting for Server
<skaet> :)
<arosales> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-January/000699.html
<arosales> We made good progress on Charm automamtion, testing, and Openstack testing CI
<arosales> Installation orchestration also had some good progress
<arosales> . . . .
<arosales> Any questions?
<skaet> Thanks arosales.  :)
<skaet> [TOPIC] ARM team Q&A - ogra
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: ARM team Q&A - ogra
<ogra_> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-January/000712.html
<ogra_> nothing to add
<ogra_> ..
<skaet> Thanks ogra_
<skaet> :)
<ogra_> :)
<skaet> [TOPIC] Linaro team Q&A - fabo
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Linaro team Q&A - fabo
<fabo> o/
<skaet> :)
<fabo> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-January/000719.html
<fabo> ..
<ogra_> how about compiz ?
<ogra_> do the patches work yet ?
<ogra_> ..
<fabo> afaik, yes. rsalveti/alf can give more details on current status.
<rsalveti> ogra_: mostly work
<ogra_> (we will carry them as a package patch, but need to know if they work yet (which they didnt for 100% up to today yet))
<rsalveti> there are still a few issues to debug
<ogra_> k, thanks :)
<ogra_> ..
<rsalveti> but we have 2 or 3 people looking at that
<ogra_> cool, thanks ;)
<ogra_> ..
<rsalveti> and we're still following up the discussions about the merge
<rsalveti> if it's going to happen or not
<rsalveti> next week we should know better
<rsalveti> ..
<ogra_> it will definitely be in ubuntu ... somehow :)
<ogra_> ..
<skaet> [TOPIC] Desktop Team Q&A  - pitti
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Desktop Team Q&A  - pitti
<pitti> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-January/000700.html
<pitti> (hopefully) fixed libo is building now, with some extra care to hit the fastest buildds we have
<pitti> and unity-2d is now building, too
<pitti> once these two are done, precise should be much happier again
<pitti> questions?
<pitti> ..
<skaet> Thanks pitti.
<skaet> [TOPIC] Unity Framework Team Q&A - dbarth
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Unity Framework Team Q&A - dbarth
<dbarth_> hi
<dbarth_> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopExperienceTeam/ReleaseStatus
<dbarth_> i don't see much to add to it
<skaet> ..?
<dbarth_> it's been a good week with 5.0 released and an SRU as well
<dbarth_> ..
<skaet> Looking forward to seeing the new version.  :)
<skaet> Thanks dbarth_
<skaet> [TOPIC] Kubuntu Team Q&A - Riddell
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Kubuntu Team Q&A - Riddell
<skaet> or any other Kubuntu folk?
<Quintasan> ah yes
<Quintasan> shadeslayer:
<shadeslayer> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-January/000706.html
<shadeslayer> Riddell: Quintasan: anything we need to add there?
<shadeslayer> ...
<Quintasan> We might be also looking into kde-telepathy 0.3 release
<Quintasan> That's all I think
<skaet> Thanks shadeslayer, Quintasan, Riddell  :)
 * skaet not seeing questions, and appreciates the burndown workitems scrubbing that went on last week.  :)
<skaet> [TOPIC] Edubuntu Team Q&A - stgraber or highvoltage
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Edubuntu Team Q&A - stgraber or highvoltage
<highvoltage> bonjour!
<stgraber> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-January/000694.html
<stgraber> I think that's about it unless highvoltage has something else
<stgraber> .. for me
<highvoltage> well if anyone wants any further bedtime reading...
<highvoltage> here's the notes to last nights edubuntu meeting:
<highvoltage> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/edubuntu-devel/2012-January/003789.html
<highvoltage> ..
<skaet> Thanks stgraber, highvoltage  :)
<highvoltage> :)
<skaet> [TOPIC] Xubuntu Team Q&A - madnick or charlie-tca
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Xubuntu Team Q&A - madnick or charlie-tca
<charlie-tca> Well
<charlie-tca> I am not really in the loop right now. I do apologize for not having the information available
<charlie-tca> I can try to get things together for next week, though.
<charlie-tca> ..
<skaet> thanks charlie-tca,  email summary is there,  but a bit worried about Xubuntu not building.
<cjwatson> hmm?
<pitti> libo?
<charlie-tca> Neither ubuntu nor xubuntu destkop images are there today
<cjwatson> the xubuntu failure is unity 5.0 fallout
<cjwatson> it should be sorted out rsn
<charlie-tca> usb-creator-gtk is giving a problem
<charlie-tca> Thank you, cjwatson
<cjwatson> I'll double-check but I suspect it's transient
<charlie-tca> We did have images working yesterday
<cjwatson> I ignored most of today's build failures because libo was in chaos
<skaet>  Thanks.   ok,  I'll remove it from my worry list.  :)
<charlie-tca> The Maybe-ubiquity change caused a couple of days of issues, but it is working now
<skaet> coolio.
<cjwatson> usb-creator-gtk isn't on precise_probs so I think it's sorted
<stgraber> usb-creator-gtk should be fine, we're just waiting for unity-2d to be puslished for it to be installable
<stgraber> ..
<cjwatson> charlie-tca: actually it didn't, you were bitten by another coincident bugs
<cjwatson> *bug
<charlie-tca> Oh
<charlie-tca> Well, thanks for getting us fixed.
<cjwatson> that was the fix in livecd-rootfs 2.48
 * skaet notes she accidently skipped foundations,  going back to that now.
<charlie-tca> stgraber: why should Xubuntu fail because of unity-2d?
<stgraber> charlie-tca: usb-creator-gtk depends on gir1.2-unity-4.0,
<stgraber> ..
<charlie-tca> ..
<skaet> [TOPIC] Foundations team Q&A - cjwatson
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Foundations team Q&A - cjwatson
<cjwatson> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-January/000693.html
<cjwatson> http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-precise/canonical-foundations.html
<cjwatson> Happy with progress here (I needed subsections in my mail!), and we split down a couple of very big work items into a slew of smaller ones on which we're making progress; I've postponed a few more just now; but obviously more to do ...
<cjwatson> Image builds are a bit of a mess right now, but that's mostly due to libreoffice and should settle again once that's fixed.
<cjwatson> And sorry I had to miss the rally this time round!
<cjwatson> ..
<skaet> Thanks cjwatson!   :)   we missed seeing you.
 * skaet will expect to see some postponed,  but yes nice progress this week.  :)
<skaet> [TOPIC] Ubuntu Studio Team Q&A - scott-work
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Studio Team Q&A - scott-work
<scott-work> hello all...
<scott-work> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-January/000708.html
<skaet> hiya :)
<scott-work> progress basically died during december due to me traveling for holidays and some illness
<scott-work> but progress is getting back in stride and i expect to be getting many things done during the remainder of january and into february
<scott-work> ..
<cjwatson> o/
<skaet> go cjwatson
<skaet> (and thanks scott-work )
<cjwatson> noting your Issues section so not saying it's your fault, but do you know if the ubuntustudio side of your live dvd work items (seeds and the like) are going to be sorted out soon, or if they need help from e.g. me?  just an advance warning that I likely drop off the map for a couple of weeks in February.
<scott-work> cjwatson: that you for the update about you not being available...
<scott-work> i would like to have the seeds/live dvd issues resolved before end of january actually
<scott-work> alessio bogani packaging the lowlatency kernel was a big help to unload off of my plate
<scott-work> hopefully i get teh website completed this weekend and then the next large focus is going to be the seeds/livedvd
<scott-work> ..
<scott-work> (although there is probably something i forget :P )
<skaet> Thanks for those details though.  :)
<cjwatson> ok.  give me a shout when you're ready and we can work on it together; it should amount to a day of concentrated work to get everything converted, I think
<skaet> [TOPIC] Lubuntu Team Q&A - gilir
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Lubuntu Team Q&A - gilir
<gilir> hi :)
<gilir> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-January/000697.html
<gilir> nothing to add
<gilir> ..
<skaet> Thanks gilir.  :)
<skaet> [TOPIC] MOTU Team Q&A - tumbleweed or Laney
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: MOTU Team Q&A - tumbleweed or Laney
<tumbleweed> hi, as usual, nothing of interest :)
<tumbleweed> ..
<skaet> Thanks tumbleweed.  I'm not seeing anyone raise hands, so moving on.
<cjwatson> hey, we got the new sync process advertised this week!
<tumbleweed> indeed :)
<skaet> ah yes,  :)
<tumbleweed> 'bout time
<skaet> [TOPIC] Any other business, comments,  questions?
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Any other business, comments,  questions?
<skaet> .... 3
<skaet> 2
<skaet> 1
<skaet> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Fri Jan 13 17:05:35 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-01-13-16.31.moin.txt
<skaet> Thanks everyone.  A new record for us.  ;)
<mdeslaur> thanks!
<stgraber> thanks!
<charlie-tca> Thanks, skaet. And again, I apologize for not being ready
<skaet> charlie-tca, no worries,  there was an email status out,  so we had some idea
<skaet> charlie-tca, do you have a list of the accessibility bugs of concern from oneiric?
<charlie-tca> No, I have to build that this weekend
<charlie-tca> I am about as far behind as I can get, I guess
<charlie-tca> I will email you a list by monday
<skaet> charlie-tca, that would be great.  I'll look for it on monday.  :)
 * skaet trying to get her burn down chart items clean too.... so she can ping others with a clear conciece
<skaet> :)
<pitti> thanks everyone
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-01-14
<bkerensa> hmms
 * funkyHat wiggles
 * bkerensa rides the pogo stick around
 * Pici yawns
<AlanBell> hi all
<bkerensa> =o
<bkerensa> 3am
<bkerensa> hello
<Pici> howdy
<AlanBell> wow
<AlanBell> dedicated, I am impressed
<Myrtti> ohai
<Pici> I plan to go right back to sleep after this ;)
<AlanBell> lets crack on then :)
<AlanBell> #startmeeting IRCC team meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Sat Jan 14 10:59:20 2012 UTC.  The chair is AlanBell. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | IRCC team meeting Meeting | Current topic:
<AlanBell> hi all, who is here for the meeting o/
<funkyHat> Ã´/
<Myrtti> o/
<oCean> o/
 * Pici waves
<bkerensa> 0/
<AlanBell> Hello and welcome to the first team meeting of the new IRC Council
<Pici> woo
<AlanBell> I would like to start the meeting by thanking our predecessors for all that they have done over the past few years, and in particular thanking them for their assistance during the handover
<Unit193> ]o
<AlanBell> jussi, elky, topyli, tsimpson, nhandler thanks very much
<LjL> :)
<AlanBell> and special congratulations jussi on the new baby \o/ \o/
<LjL> \o/
<bkerensa> \o/
<Pici> :)
<AlanBell> #topic welcome and introductions from the new IRC Council
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | IRCC team meeting Meeting | Current topic:  welcome and introductions from the new IRC Council
<AlanBell> topyli will be along in a sec, but the new council is Pici topyli funkyHat and myself
<AlanBell> Pici: funkyHat: want to say who you are?
<Pici> I think you all know me by now.
<Pici> Or at least, I hope so ;)
<AlanBell> :)
<AlanBell> I am the leader of the Ubuntu-UK loco team, and I do a bit for the Accessibility team
<AlanBell> I am not an op in the core channels so I have been running about learning stuff over the last couple of weeks
<Pici> Anyway, feel free to give me a pm at any time if you want to take about anything. I'm always available.
<funkyHat> Hi, I'm Matt Wheeler. I've been an operator in #ubuntu-offtopic for quite a while now, and I'm also slowly working on my packaging skills with the intention of joining the MOTU team, but university is taking first priority at the moment
<AlanBell> topyli: hi topyli, who are you?
<ts2> aren't there supposed to be 5 members (and Hello!)
<funkyHat> I'm pretty much always idling on here too, so feel free to pm me as well. I have nice hats â¡â¢)
<LjL> ts2: i think not enough applied
<AlanBell> ts2: yes, will get to that in a sec
<ts2> ok
<Myrtti> ts2: we couldn't enough blood from the fourth one to make them weak enough to apply
<AlanBell> here is the agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/IrcCouncil/MeetingAgenda
<Myrtti> s/fourth/fifth/
<topyli> i'm juha siltala. i'm an op in #ubuntu-offtopic and a couple of loco channels (i think still) i used to be in the previous council
<AlanBell> #subtopic announcement of the chair of the IRCC
<Pici> Oh, I guess I should state my name for the record like everyone else.  Benjamin Rubin, op in lots of channels, was on the council before the last, etc.
<topyli> i'm pretty easy to reach on irc, so go ahead and bother me :)
<AlanBell> I lost the game of rock-paper-scissors and as a forfeit I ended up as chair of the IRCC
<AlanBell> There is no particular reason why we have to have one chair throughout the term of this council, so we might shuffle things about at some stage
<AlanBell> but right now I am happy to be the
<AlanBell> chair
<bkerensa> \o/
<topyli> great!
<AlanBell> !return | AlanBell
<ubottu> AlanBell, please see my private message
<oCean> haha
<topyli> eh
<topyli> heh even!
<funkyHat> â¢) AlanChair
<AlanBell> #subtopic the empty seat
<AlanBell> As you may have gathered, the IRCC should be 5 people and we have 4.
<AlanBell> We will leave the seat empty for the time being, our colleagues from the Community Council will be assisting us in the short term
<AlanBell> we hope to hold an election to fill the remaining seat during the Q cycle.
<AlanBell> That post would be set to expire at the same time as the current council so it would be a slightly shorter term than normal
<AlanBell> any comments on that plan?
<LjL> for the record, i don't see it as a very pressing matter
<oCean> Agreed, I think the way AlanBell describes is just fine
<topyli> theoretically it can lead to tricky votes though, but that's why we have a chairman
<AlanBell> yeah, I am not really anticipating a deadlock on anything, but if we do I would certainly want the opinion of our CC advisors before using the casting vote
<Pici> Agreed.
<topyli> yes
<AlanBell> ok, slight change to the agenda has been requested and I am bumping the #lubuntu item up to the top to allow people to get away
<AlanBell> #topic Welcoming #lubuntu
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | IRCC team meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Welcoming #lubuntu
<bkerensa> :)
<Pici> Hi #lubuntu!
<AlanBell> we have put out the call for ops for the #lubuntu channel which is great
<Myrtti> finally :-P
<AlanBell> http://fridge.ubuntu.com/2012/01/06/lubuntu-call-for-operators/
<topyli> i think the nomination period ends right about now, wo we should have ops soon
<AlanBell> looks like 12 people found their way through the application process to hit the join button https://launchpad.net/~irc-lubuntu-ops/+members
<Unit193> Oh, right. Hello
<Myrtti> AlanBell: btw jussi is still listed as an admin of that?
<AlanBell> after the meeting we will mail the IRC discussion list with the list of names and links to wiki pages and invite comments from the existing ops
<AlanBell> Myrtti: refresh the page ;)
<Myrtti> good good
<Pici> Of course people are free to make commentary to the IRCC directly if they feel it more appropriate.
<Myrtti> I had been wondering about that fr a week or so now
<AlanBell> yes, please email us directly or pop into #ubuntu-irc-council
<AlanBell> I think we should go through and make our decisions some point this week
<Myrtti> I would like to make a request
<Pici> Sure.
<Myrtti> would the IRC council consider the possibility of allowing the applicants to see the comments others have left after the nominations, anonymised if needed, if they so request?
<Myrtti> I'd personally benefit from hearing what others think I may need to improve on
<bkerensa> +1
 * AlanBell ponders
<Myrtti> I don't need a reply to that now, just tossed it out there
<Unit193> That'd help, if I knew them at all they could PM me (best to do it when mi"M more awake)
<topyli> if we decide to do so, we should mention this when requesting comments
<LjL> topyli: yes
<Pici> Constructive critisicm is good, I don't see any obvious downsides at the moment.
<Pici> topyli: and that
<AlanBell> ok, people are encouraged to leave comments and testimonials on wiki pages, or pass private comments to the council - which I think would not be expected to be passed on, however when we accept / decline people we can pass feedback to them
<AlanBell> I think if someone is being declined we should explain why
<Myrtti> the reason I'm asking this is that when I applied for -server ops I got nothing on the wiki page
<Unit193> I'd even like to know what I can work on if I am accepted
<Pici> Agreed. I think the decline comments have either been very vague or non-existant as of late.
<AlanBell> Myrtti: you are still in the pending queue for server ops
<Myrtti> AlanBell: possibly, I haven't checked
<AlanBell> I have :)
<Pici> Myrtti: We're aware that the current queues are something that we need to work.
<topyli> we could tidy up the comments even to the point of just listing bullet points or something
<AlanBell> ok, so this week we will be accepting a bunch of operators into the induction period
<Myrtti> anyway, as an active ops on #ubuntu I'm used to getting negative, nonconstructive criticism all the time, but it's the constructive I've not had for years
<topyli> heh
<AlanBell> and we want to be a bit more organised about induction this time
<AlanBell> we will be assigning mentors as we have done in the past, but we are also going to organise a number of training sessions in -classroom
<AlanBell> stuff like how to set bans, extbans, IPV6 bans etc
<AlanBell> how to mediate with problem users
<LjL> good idea
<AlanBell> how the bots work
<oCean> +1
<AlanBell> even bots not currently used in #lubuntu, when they have 1600 idlers they might well want floodbots
<Myrtti> sounds like a good idea even for current ops
<Myrtti> of other channels
<Pici> Aye
<AlanBell> yes, they would be open to all
<topyli> lecturers are obviously most welcome :)
<LjL> i'd like to nominate myself for that, will have a talk with you about it latert
<Myrtti> call for lecturers in the mailing list?
<Myrtti> or is this it :-P?
<AlanBell> yeah, but we need to have a chat about the topics to cover in a bit more detail
<Myrtti> I'll volunteer for Irssi basics if such is deemed as interesting to people
<AlanBell> great
<AlanBell> so yes we will do a call for instructors, perhaps with some specific topics we want to include
<AlanBell> and some people might be voluntold
<Pici> Hopefully not though ;)
<Unit193> Yeah, that'd be interesetngi to attend as long as wit was  a good time (irssi one)
<AlanBell> Pici: it is an akgranerism I just wanted to use ;)
<Pici> AlanBell: ;)
<Myrtti> perhaps a Google poll /similar would be good to have to get a feeling on what might be wanted in addition to the basics
<LjL> why Google? we have Launchpad, and it provides such fines polls!
<AlanBell> so in summary, please comment on the applicants to help us decide (and decide who needs which mentor), the new ops will be invited into -ops (where they will be advised to be slient in the short term) and -ops-team and have bantracker access
<AlanBell> and we will be doing a structured training course
<AlanBell> looking at dates, it seems the induction will basically run to the Precise launch date which is nice
<AlanBell> any more to say on the topic of welcoming #lubuntu and the new ops?
<funkyHat> I'll just say welcome as well â ââ¢)
<AlanBell> ok, thanks Unit193, feel free to stick around or wander off o/
<AlanBell> #topic Review last meetings action items
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | IRCC team meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Review last meetings action items
<AlanBell> #progress topyli to finally mail council about the operator recruitment process
<Unit193> Right, thanks AlanBell! I'll read the rest when I wake up
<AlanBell> well we have been kind of discussing this one a bit
<topyli> i haven't mailed the council, so this is not done
<AlanBell> we have a bug for this topic, I would be quite happy to just have comments on that
<Pici> We have been looking at metrics from the last few rounds of recruitment drives
<AlanBell> I think we should park this action, and come back to it when we get to reviewing bug 884671 in a minute
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 884671 in ubuntu-community "Ubuntu IRC operator recruitment is slow and ungainly" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/884671
<AlanBell> #progress topyli to ask if eir can be tweaked to ignore floodbots
<AlanBell> heh, you did this :)
<topyli> done! yeah!
<Myrtti> booyah
<AlanBell> the response was unenthusiastic
<Pici> Not surprising imo.
<topyli> it was. but patches are welcome
<AlanBell> I never understood this request tbh, eir dealing with floodbot bans is a good thing right?
<AlanBell> just eir shouldn't ban the floodbots
<LjL> AlanBell: eir actually nags the floodbots though
<topyli> LjL: you also had a plan B of some sort, making the floodbots ignore eir :)
<LjL> yeah. i just wonder one thing
<LjL> is it actually helpful for eir to spell out each mute that the floodbots do?
<LjL> i think it does, and found it quite annoying in -ops-team
<funkyHat> Yes I was going to say, the other issue is how much eir is flooding -ops-team
<AlanBell> ok, lets move on from this action which was done, and come back to eir/floodbots in a sec with the bugs
<AlanBell> #topic Open items in the IRCC tracker
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | IRCC team meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Open items in the IRCC tracker
<AlanBell> we have closed an action which was a duplicate of the lauchpad bug about eir
<AlanBell> there was an old appeals process, did that get closed topyli?
<topyli> it sort of did. the user is not convinced, but i don't think we can improve our decision to please them even more
<AlanBell> ok, and their ban has been resolved anyway
<topyli> it is, the user just sometimes still complains about it being there in the first place
<topyli> but that's a different problem
<AlanBell> ok, can we close it without the system sending them a mail to remind them about it?
<topyli> yes, close it
<topyli> we'll get to bantracker zero!d
<AlanBell> last activity on that was in November
<AlanBell> yup, then we have nothing in the private tracker at all
<topyli> but now we have lots of launchpad bugs :)
<AlanBell> yes
<AlanBell> if anything comes back in the tracker we will mention it in a future meeting
<AlanBell> but launchpad bugs are the way forward
<AlanBell> #topic Review Bugs related to the Ubuntu IRC Council
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | IRCC team meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Review Bugs related to the Ubuntu IRC Council
<AlanBell> #subtopic bug 892501 Floodbots - need a re-write to be under ubuntu operator team control - ikonia
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 892501 in ubuntu-community "Floodbots - need a re-write to be under ubuntu operator team control" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/892501
<AlanBell> Fix committed \o/
<AlanBell> I am very pleased to announce that the floodbots will go through a managed process of being open sourced
<topyli> there are beginnings of a project to get on with this
<Pici> yay
<oCean> nice
<AlanBell> The first step happened this week when we worked with LJL to set up a launchpad project for them
<AlanBell> Canonical have provided private code hosting and a small team will work with LJL to get the code ready for wider public scrutiny.
<AlanBell> The first commit of the floodbot code was done on Tuesday
<AlanBell> https://launchpad.net/floodbot
<LjL> I'd like anyone who would like to work on the floodbots code to get in contact with the IRC Council or me.
<AlanBell> yup, that would be great
<AlanBell> I think we now have a good strategy for the future of the floodbots and I believe the concerns expressed in this bug are now resolved
<topyli> i agree
<AlanBell> any further high level comments about the floodbots? we can discuss details at a later meeting I think
<AlanBell> ok, moving on
<AlanBell> #subtopic bug 892500 eir is still not fit for purpose in #ubuntu -ikonia
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 892500 in ubuntu-community "eir is still not fit for purpose in #ubuntu" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/892500
<AlanBell> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-bots?field.searchtext=[eir]
<AlanBell> I have been trying to understand eir a bit, and what it does, and what it should do
<AlanBell> and I have been trying a few different experiments, figuring out how we can make the messages more useful by linking them to the bantracker etc
<LjL> I'd much rather see ubottu managing these things than eir. If the FloodBots not being "under operator team control" was a problem, then I don't see how eir is any better in this.
<AlanBell> also discovered that when it does a nagflood it maxes out at 10 messages
<Pici> I personally think that its features should be folded into ubottu (either new bantracker or old).  The current implementation is a bit clunky and of course we don't have direct control.
<oCean> I agree with LjL and Pici
<AlanBell> I think now eir is configured reasonably well, and being used reasonably well, but still doesn't add a huge amount of value
<AlanBell> it seems that the floodbots could be extended to tidy up their own bans or ubottu could be extended to do the good bits of what eir does
<AlanBell> improving eir and contributing back enhancements to freenode is an appealing concept, but fewer bots seems like a less complicated architecture
<Pici> I think thats something that most of us can agree with
<oCean> Indeed, integrating both bots is never going to be easy, and probably needs effort on both bots
<LjL> What is it exactly that ubottu and the floodbots don't do yet?
<oCean> LjL: remind us of expired bans
<funkyHat> Annoy the ops in -team ;D
<LjL> Doesn't ubottu does that in PM though?
<topyli> funkyHat: a noble cause! :)
<oCean> right, on a per-op basis. The nagging in the team channel, so ops could see each others bans, is not a feature requested by ops but by the ircc originially i think
<LjL> Well, I suppose nagging everyone has a purpose, but in my opinion it just means that everyone will ignore all the spam.
<LjL> To me, doing it in PM seems much cleaner.
<LjL> If an op wants to review someone else's bans, they can still do it through the bantracker.
<oCean> I agree, and I still like to know whether we are responsible for each others bans or not, and to what extent
<AlanBell> I think the policy is that people don't "own" bans as such
<Pici> Agreed.
<topyli> do the bans pile up less now though? that was the original purpose i think
<oCean> topyli: yes, there's a nice trend http://status.nullcortex.com/other/other/ircbans.html
<Pici> I think they've improvd that. ^^
<topyli> i think there are less panic situations about full trackers
<Pici> Definitely that as well.
<LjL> topyli: ubottu was also changed to remind us of bans, though, as mentioned. How much is it eir and how much is it ubottu?
<funkyHat> Would it be possible to have some bot give a list of bans periodically in -team, ideally with more than one ban per message?
<funkyHat> So we would still get the reminders, but with significantly reduced annoyance?
<topyli> LjL: that's true
<LjL> funkyHat: To what purpose? You can get at the bans with a /mode b, and if you cram them into one message, there won't be space for any comments about them so what's the added value?
<oCean> funkyHat, LjL : that's what I intended with my script, this overview hold more (useful i hope) information
<LjL> yes
<LjL> indeed, I was going to ask - what about *statistics* in #ubuntu-ops-team instead?
<LjL> not the individual bans, but information about the status
<funkyHat> LjL: I'm thinking of something similar to eir's current behaviour, where it nags about recent bans or bans that haven't been put on a quiet list
<oCean> LjL: exactly, a per-op reminder and general stats in -team
<LjL> funkyHat: I think we'd get the same complaints we have now about eir. Ops won't accept something that they feel has no added value to just peeking the banlist.
<Pici> Much to the chagrin of the bot coders, I think we may need to play with a few implementations to see what works best.
<AlanBell> agreed
<AlanBell> bit of prototyping and experimenting
<oCean> Really? Shouldn't we just start with requirements?
<AlanBell> where is the fun in that?
<topyli> hehe
<LjL> I lean on the prototyping and experimenting
<AlanBell> anyhow, please file requirements as bugs here: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-bots?field.searchtext=[eir]
<oCean> really? isn't that what got us in this situation?
<Pici> oCean: Of course. But we know that sometimes whats described in features doesn't always translte well to practice.
<funkyHat> LjL: hm ok. I would find that less annoying than the current behaviour, but if it's going to still annoy others just as much then there's no point
<oCean> a requirement as a bug?
<AlanBell> oCean: yes
<AlanBell> so they can be tracked and discussed
<LjL> oCean: I don't think so. What got us in this situation was prototyping and experimenting that kind of failed, but which was still pushed.
<funkyHat> Yes that's pretty standard practise for software development ;)
<funkyHat> (requirements as bugs)
<AlanBell> tag it [eir] for the time being even though it might not end up implemented in eir
<AlanBell> ok, I think until the next meeting we should keep eir, whilst actively tinkering with other plans, make sense?
<LjL> I'm not so sure. What about we tentatively remove eir and "advertize" ubottu's ability to remind of bans, and see if the banlist grows?
<oCean> Yes, I'm all for removing it
<AlanBell> dunno, what does everyone think? speak now . . .
<funkyHat> I agree with LjL, we've had quite a long time of "testing" eir and people still aren't happy with it. Lets test not having it and see what goes wrong
<topyli> afaik eir also has handy autoremove timeouts, which ubottu doesn't
<AlanBell> ah, it also has a load of them in it's memory right now
<Pici> I personally have been using those autoremove things, and I've noticed that a number of other ops do as well.
<Pici> Despite the spam, I find that a worthwile feature.
<LjL> Is it possible then to just remove some of the nagging from #ubuntu-ops-team?
<AlanBell> we could maybe shut it up, or move the control channel?
<LjL> #ubuntu-ops-monitor would be a more fit place in my opinion
<LjL> It's a more "opt in" channel
<Pici> LjL: me too
<Pici> er, mine too
<AlanBell> right now if someone set a %~30d eir will have it on the todo list to remove that, I wouldn't want to remove eir right now and have that not happen
<LjL> That's a valid point.
<oCean> AlanBell: there's bans set #~365d - we have to wait at least 1 year?
<LjL> oCean: Well, no, it would "simply" require a transfer to ubottu
<AlanBell> oCean: not too worried about # it is the % I want to happen
<oCean> AlanBell: nvm the # or %, it's as LjL says, at one point we have to transfer it.
<LjL> Well, oCean, we simply can't do it right now, ubottu doesn't have the code for *that* yet
<oCean> I understand
<oCean> Ok, best choice seems to be to leave eir in the channel then
<AlanBell> ok, so should we find out if we can move the eir control channel to -ops-monitor and maybe turn down the nag frequency to 24 hours or something?
<topyli> let's see if we can make it more quiet one way or another, but leave it
 * bkerensa must depart to bed (4:17am) gnight
<LjL> AlanBell: I don't care how frequent it is as long as it's in #ubuntu-ops-monitor personally
<Pici> LjL: Is there any problem with eir sending notices to -ops-monitor?
<oCean> AlanBell: please note that the nag frequency is the same as the frequency that eir uses to actually remove
<LjL> Pici: technical problems you mean? There shouldn't be, but if the floodbots act up, it should be easy to fix them
<AlanBell> bots shouldn't react to notices (that is what they are for)
<Pici> LjL: okay
<LjL> AlanBell: Well, the floodbots do react to notices in #ubuntu, by banning the noticer :)
<AlanBell> heh, OK
<topyli> moving the nags seems like the best solution that would let people who want to see them still enjoy them
<funkyHat> +1
<AlanBell> ok, lets find out if we can do that without it forgetting its current todo list for #ubuntu
<LjL> AlanBell: Unfortunately or whatever, there is a difference between what the RFC say and what people use notices for...
<oCean> Can I ask if generating my overview every now and then is useful?
<AlanBell> #action ircc to move eir control channel to -ops-monitor if this will preserve existing ban timeouts
<meetingology> ACTION: ircc to move eir control channel to -ops-monitor if this will preserve existing ban timeouts
<AlanBell> oCean: yes, it is
<LjL> is
<oCean> Ok, does it need some form of pw protection?
<AlanBell> ok, lets move on to the next bug
<LjL> oCean: i wouldn't think so, it's all info that can be obtained from /mode b, no?
<oCean> LjL: no, not the expiry times
<LjL> Ah, I see.
<LjL> Maybe that does.
<oCean> Ok, I'll look into that, let's continue
<AlanBell> #subtopic bug 912783 IRC votes and surveys go to the ubuntu members which excludes some operators - LJL
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 912783 in ubuntu-community "IRC votes and surveys go to the ubuntu members which excludes some operators" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/912783
<AlanBell> we have discussed this internally and with the CC
<AlanBell> there are two slightly separate questions here, voting and the survey
<AlanBell> the irc Members group was set up specifically for voting and we want Ubuntu Members to have a say in the governance of Ubuntu
<topyli> ultimately it's up to the CC who are included in the electorate, not us. but surveys are another thing
<AlanBell> if you are an op in a core channel then that is a significant and sustained contribution to Ubuntu and you would be well placed to apply for membership through the IRCC or another membership body
<AlanBell> the recent survey was deliberately sent to the IRC Members, but future surveys if we do them could be sent to all members, all ops, ops of specific channels or any other arbitary group that seems sensible at the time based on what we want to ask
<LjL> Please consider the possibility of more actively encouraging ops to become members, then, and make it clear they don't have to feel embarrassed if their only contribution appears to be being an op.
<AlanBell> yes, lets do that
<Pici> aye aye
<topyli> yes
<AlanBell> ok, so we will add a comment to that effect to the bug and close it off I think
<LjL> Ok.
<AlanBell> #subtopic bug 884671 Ubuntu IRC operator recruitment is slow and ungainly - jussi
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 884671 in ubuntu-community "Ubuntu IRC operator recruitment is slow and ungainly" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/884671
<AlanBell> this is how the core ops team has grown over the last 2 years http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/coreops.png
<AlanBell> about 4 people per release cycle
<topyli> we certainly don't want the process to discourage people from applying. where it does, we should of course fix it
<AlanBell> we currently have 23 applications pending for core channels (which includes existing ops, and probably people we would decline)
<AlanBell> I am thinking that we should use the #lubuntu induction as a model and move to a more release cycle based regular thing across all channels
<AlanBell> so each release we would process the pending queues for all channels and then run an induction/training for the new intake all together
<topyli> sometimes we just need ops and sometimes we don't, though
<LjL> I was honestly thinking of a move in the opposite direction, i.e. going back (*additionally*, not as a substitute to the process!) to actively "pinging" people who the council finds fit, and making the process as smooth as possible for them.
<AlanBell> so we might end up overstaffed in a few areas
<AlanBell> how is that a bad thing?
<LjL> I've been here for some time, and while of course things have changed and cannot be treated the same way as before, I guarantee that the old way of appointing ops had its share of advantages.
<LjL> I certainly wouldn't make it a *more* process-driven thing than it is now.
<topyli> AlanBell: well it would be a good problem to have if anything, i suppose .)
<AlanBell> LjL: I can certainly see us encouraging some people to apply, I am just thinking of making it more regular and predictable and in line with the cadence of the release cycle
<LjL> AlanBell: But why? If someone can be a good op *now*, and the Council knows that, why wait?
<AlanBell> LjL: at the moment we keep people "like Myrtti in -server" hanging for so long in the queue that they forget they are there
<AlanBell> LjL: so that we can do a more organised induction
<LjL> AlanBell: Well, then maybe you aren't all so convinced they should be good ops, or something. I don't know - what's stopping you from accepting or declining?
<Myrtti> the what huh?
<ikonia> -server is crazy
<ikonia> for some reason we won't put ops in it ???
<ikonia> I've sat on the list for about 18 months now
<funkyHat> I think I'm on the pending list for -server too, heh
<oCean> I'm too, I think...
<AlanBell> LjL: applications from existing ops we could probably process very fast and as they happen
<Pici> I think we need to actively work the list, not wait for a new cycle.
<LjL> Pici: +1
<oCean> +1
<ikonia> it would be helpful to decline people who are not fit quicker
<ikonia> rather than making them go through the song and dance
<ikonia> be a bit more common sense rather than ticking boxes
<topyli> well, in principle nothing prevents us from giving ops to anyone we like as it. we just haven't done so
<Pici> ikonia: I was just going to say something like that
<topyli> as it is*
<ikonia> topyli: -ops is a great example of that
<LjL> topyli: Is there a particular reason then?
<ikonia> I was told to go through the whole application process, update my wiki all that sort of stuff to get ops in -ops, and to be honest, it just seemed like a waste of time as at that moment, we where empty handed
<ikonia> in the same way for server
<ikonia> at the time I applied -server was getting hit with issues, but the processes was a total waste of time
<topyli> i can't remember why we don't. i do know why the process ended up like it is, but i don't know how we stopped the "old way"
<ikonia> rather than applying common sense
<AlanBell> ok, I think we need common sense and a fast process for existing ops adding more channels
<LjL> Seriously, "good" people will burn out before they have a chance of getting ops. It's happening.
<ikonia> exactly
<ikonia> you get fed up of trying to push it/get the issue resolved
<LjL> And tight processes like this always end up scarying away "good" people who don't like to brag, and attract sillier people instead.
<ikonia> but the opposite is also true,
<ikonia> someone like bacta can apply for ops and be told to go through the proces
<Pici> I say we work the queues every meeting and look at our procedures for adding existing ops on-the-fly
<ikonia> rather than just saying "no, that's not going to happen"
<funkyHat> Pici: +1
<Pici> or before every meeting, or some other sane but regular cycle
<ikonia> isn't there a team owning this ?
<AlanBell> getting it regular is what I am aiming for
<ikonia> eg: when someone applies, deal with the request
<LjL> Pici: That's fine, but please please also don't sleep on people you spot in #ubuntu or anywhere who you think are good, and as AlanBell says, "voluntell" them.
<AlanBell> "When the Ubuntu IRC Council notices the need to have more operators in a particular channel or channels, they will send an email to the ubuntu-irc mailing list."
<AlanBell> that is the level of current regularity
<Pici> Working the queues != asking for more ops
<LjL> AlanBell: Getting it regular also risks meaning closing the door to some lovely irregularities. I hope you don't want that to happen.
<funkyHat> I think whatever "policy" we have on the process we can still make common sense exceptions, like ikonia said
<Pici> (We've been at this for nearly two hours now :/)
<LjL> The fact you all have been chosen for this IRC Council position *does* mean you're trusted to know who deserves being dragged into being an op.
<AlanBell> LjL: it is the epic long waits on the pending list I want to stop
<AlanBell> ok, lets move on from this now, we can revisit at the next meeting and add comments to the bug in the mean time. We will be doing some recruitment in the very short term with #lubuntu
<ikonia> just noticed my -server join request has expired
<AlanBell> #subtopic bug 913541 there are a number of people with Ubuntu IRC cloaks who have expired from the ubuntumembers group - AlanBell
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 913541 in ubuntu-community "there are a number of people with Ubuntu IRC cloaks who have expired from the ubuntumembers group" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/913541
<LjL> We used to have a script to check that, does it still work?
<AlanBell> about 19 people we need to clean up and nhandler detailed the process for us
<AlanBell> LjL: yeah, works a treat
<AlanBell> not much to discuss on this bug, we will be dealing with it and update on the situation next meeting
<AlanBell> #subtopic bug 887544 No measurable data on ban resolving process in #ubuntu-ops - jussi
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 887544 in ubuntu-community "No measurable data on ban resolving process in #ubuntu-ops" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/887544
<Pici> Is this really an issue?
<AlanBell> there has been a bit of debate on this bug, the concensus appears to be that it is hard to make any measurements and the value of them is a bit questionable
<AlanBell> I am inclined to close it until someone comes up with something they want to measure and a plan of how to do so
<topyli> no progress, but also no hurry. some interesting/useful data could probably be generated, but i'm not exactly sure what
<LjL> There's no harm in keeping stuff open if the idea is still... open, I think
<AlanBell> maybe we could set it to opinion or something to indicate it is on hold rather than closed
<topyli> yes
<Pici> [wishlist]?
<AlanBell> great, moving on
<AlanBell> Pici: makes sense
<AlanBell> #subtopic bug 916247 devel wiki on ubottu.com needs some attention - AlanBell
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 916247 in ubuntu-community "devel wiki on ubottu.com needs some attention" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/916247
<AlanBell> we appear to have a somewhat spam filled mediawiki instance kicking about
<Pici> I'd like to see this moved to wiki.u.c
<AlanBell> I would propose we evacuate any decent content (technical stuff about the bots mostly) to wiki.ubuntu.com and shut down this wiki
<funkyHat> +1
<topyli> agreed
<AlanBell> ok lets do that and update next meeting
<AlanBell> #subtopic bug 788503 IRC Guidelines too #ubuntu centric - tsimpson
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 788503 in ubuntu-community "IRC Guidelines too #ubuntu centric" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/788503
<LjL> I would also out of courtesy discuss it with tsimpson...
<Pici> +1, but I'd like to hear from ts2 and jussi as to why i
<Pici> yes
<AlanBell> agreed LjL
<topyli> there is the guidelines draft and it's improved, but it still needs a bit of love
<AlanBell> ok, don't think I have seen that, lets review it and try and close this one next meeting
<Pici> sounds good to me
<AlanBell> that is the end of our bug review \o/
<AlanBell> future meetings will be shorter
<AlanBell> #topic Definition of where official announcements from the IRCC will be made for those with a need for no discussion but announcements - jussi
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | IRCC team meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Definition of where official announcements from the IRCC will be made for those with a need for no discussion but announcements - jussi
<AlanBell> this was added by jussi, not sure he is available right now
<Pici> I don't see why this can't be done on the mailing list and perhaps in the topic of -ops and -irc
<AlanBell> basically we will announce things in a meeting, and on the mailing list
<Myrtti> not -ops-team?
<AlanBell> I think we should leave this item on the agenda for the next meeting when maybe jussi is available, there is some more text on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/IrcCouncil/IRCteamproposal
<Myrtti> there's people in there that aren't idling on -ops
<Pici> Myrtti: thats good too
<AlanBell> Myrtti: yes, that too
<Myrtti> and vice versa, so all three would probably be good
<topyli> they should also end up in the team reports, for future generations to cherish
<AlanBell> yeah, I think he was encouraging us to set up a blog/twitter thing, which I am not overly keen on
<AlanBell> IRC seems the natural medium for the IRCC to make announcements on
<topyli> we do blog about stuff and it ends up on planet
<AlanBell> yup
<ikonia> "just banned a user, lol"
<ikonia> twitter.....really ?
<LjL> topyli: Maybe you could just agree to tag stuff relevant to the IRC Council with a standard tag?
<topyli> we could. i've been ucing 'ircc' myself
 * Pici is running low on laptop (and huamn) energy.
<AlanBell> lets park this idea to the next meeting, suggestions and comments welcome in the mean time
<topyli> ikonia: :)
<AlanBell> #topic Any Other Business
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | IRCC team meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Any Other Business
<funkyHat> I have a quick one, dax pointed out that external links on irclogs.ubuntu.com should have rel="nofollow". I submitted a fix to irclog2html, which has been accepted, we could easily patch our local copy pending a new release
<funkyHat> https://bugs.launchpad.net/irclog2html/+bug/914553
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 914553 in irclog2html "URL replacement should set rel="nofollow"" [Wishlist,Fix committed]
<AlanBell> good one, yes
<funkyHat> I also wrote a one-liner to fix the existing logs
<funkyHat> Who has access to the server to apply that?
<AlanBell> um, an rt request perhaps?
<Pici> We'd need to get this implemented with rt, wich probably isn't going to be too keen on not using a repo provided update
<Pici> although it doesn't hurt to try
<AlanBell> ok, lets add that one to our todo list to update for the next meeting
<LjL> Last meeting (or the one before the last) I mentioned whether it would be a good idea for a bot to tell banned users about their ban and relevant stuff (like how to appeal and how NOT to appeal), I don't suppose it has been considered further?
<AlanBell> LjL: don't think it has been considered further, but we can add it to the next meeting
<ikonia> certainly a good idea to point them to -ops
<ikonia> don't think throwing stuff like !appeals at each ban is wise
<topyli> LjL: it hasn't, but i like the idea
<LjL> ikonia: i was thinking of a custom and well-thought message.
<LjL> which would mainly point them to -ops and tell them how to behave there.
<ikonia> LjL: pretty worth while
<LjL> (technically, the floodbots could do it easily)
<AlanBell> I like that idea, will add it as a feature bug in the cloud of eir related requirements
<Pici> uh oh, laptop is beeping at me now.
<AlanBell> ok, any more items?
<AlanBell> 3
<AlanBell> 2
<AlanBell> 1
<LjL> WAIT
<Pici> Nothing from me, but will review the minutes after I wake up further later ;
<LjL> no, nothing
<Pici> )
<AlanBell> #endmeeting
<oCean> :)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Sat Jan 14 13:02:32 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-01-14-10.59.moin.txt
<Pici> Thanks for the very productive meeting everyone :)
<AlanBell> thanks all for attending this omnibus edition of the IRCC meeting
<topyli> made it through!
<funkyHat> â¡â¢)
<AlanBell> future meetings will be much shorter or split across two meetings
<AlanBell> I just wanted to get everything covered in this one without rushing people too much
<topyli> yes. we know know what's on the plate
<AlanBell> I will sort the minutes after lunch :)
<oCean> thanks guys
<topyli> thanks all
<Myrtti> thank you
<funkyHat> Yep, thanks everyone â¡â¢)
#ubuntu-meeting 2013-01-07
<jdstrand> hi!
 * sbeattie waves
<jjohansen> o/
<tyhicks> hello
<sarnold> hello
<jdstrand> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Jan  7 18:03:31 2013 UTC.  The chair is jdstrand. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<jdstrand> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<jdstrand> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Announcements
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Announcements
<jdstrand> Happy New Year and welcome back :)
<jdstrand> Thanks to Thomas Ward (TheLordOfTime) provided a debdiff for lucid for znc (LP: #1090195)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1090195 in znc (Ubuntu Hardy) "ZNC security report: CVEs for Lucid, Hardy" [Undecided,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1090195
<jdstrand> Thanks to Christian Kuersteiner (ckuerste) provided a debdiff for lucid-precise for dtach (LP: #1088355)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1088355 in dtach (Ubuntu Raring) "Information disclosure Vulnerability" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1088355
<jdstrand> Your work is very much appreciated and will keep Ubuntu users secure. Great job! :)
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<jdstrand> I'll go first
<jdstrand> I'm in the happy place this week
<jdstrand> before (and during) the break I took some time to play with the dbus apparmor patches
<jdstrand> it's working really well for me and I am starting to see patterns for abstractions
<sbeattie> nice!
<jdstrand> it is inconvenient that aa-notify can only read one logfile at a time though
<tyhicks> \o/
<jdstrand> so I started poking at a python rewrite that would allow reading multiple logfiles
<sbeattie> woo
<tyhicks> jdstrand: I can flip the switch on enabling auditd support in the dbus-dev ppa's dbus package
<tyhicks> we can talk about it offline
<jdstrand> all this got me rather excited about the work the security team has been doing, so I started to write up a multipart blog series for apparmor
<jdstrand> tyhicks: yeah, I thought about that too-- yes let's talk later
<jdstrand> the idea behind the blogging is to basically say what we have done, how we use it in Ubuntu, what we are currently working on, then talk about my experiences with dbus specifically
<jdstrand> that should set it up such that any of us (or me) could blog about the other bits
<jdstrand> that the team is working on
<jdstrand> thanks to sarnold and jjohansen for reviewing my 1st draft
<jdstrand> jjohansen: btw, let's talk about your comments offline since the upstream wiki also needs to be updated
<jdstrand> beyond that
<jjohansen> jdstrand: sure
<jdstrand> I am patch piloting this week (supposed to be today, but I need to push that to later in the week because... )
<jdstrand> I'm also working on an nss update, testing/sponsoring firefox and thunderbird, and hopefully chromium-browser
<jdstrand> I need to follow-up with chad on chromium-browser, since I think all that is left is lucid
<jdstrand> mdes laur returns tomorrow. he will be on triage
<jdstrand> sbeattie: you're up
<sbeattie> I'm still an apparmor monkey this week
<sbeattie> I'm still working on the display manager prototype as well as doing prep work for the 2.8.1 release, the upcoming alpha, and for the apparmor meeting tomorrow.
<sbeattie> that's pretty much it for me.
<sbeattie> tyhicks: you're up
<tyhicks> I'm working on an embargoed item, the AppArmor kernel policy interface, and I need to review my objectives
<tyhicks> jjohansen: you're up
<jjohansen> I am getting back into apparmor this week as well
<jjohansen> there are a couple bugs that where reported over the holidays that need some more looking into, I need to get some stuff together for the meeting tomorrow, and I need to get the labeling/alpha1 stuff out this week
<jjohansen> I suppose I need to review objectives too
<jjohansen> sarnold: your up
<sarnold> I'm still working on the libvirt/dnsmasq update; I didn't make much progress on it last week, and I'm starting to lean towards not having a reproducer for the specific bugfix that we're looking at integrating.
<sarnold> I'd very much like be unstuck on this :)
<sarnold> I'm going to repoke the axis2/c upstream bugreport I filed before the holidays before refiling my CVE request for not-checking-hostnames
<jdstrand> sarnold: well, automating dhcp reproducers is always tricky. it's ok to fallback to testing that you didn't regress (even if some of that is manual)
<sarnold> but I feel like that should be finished this week
<jdstrand> it's just like that sometimes
<sarnold> I've also got objectives to do, presumably this week, I assumed jdstrand and I would discuss them elsewhere
<jdstrand> sarnold: indeed :)
<sarnold> and in good news, I think I may have finallylicked the last of my "where does my email go?" quandry -- I've switched to using dovecot/delivre to deliver my inbox mail instead of allowing it to fall off the end of procmail into a file
<sarnold> jdstrand: back to you :)
<jdstrand> nice :)
<jdstrand> it is certainly distressing when you aren't sure you are getting your mail
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
<jdstrand> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.
<jdstrand> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/exif.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/ruby-rails-3.2.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/libguac.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/activemq.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/ruby-activerecord-2.3.html
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
<jdstrand> There are a lot of merge opportunities for packages listed in http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/d2u/. Performing these updates is a great way to help Ubuntu and bolster your developer application.
<jdstrand> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
<jdstrand> sbeattie, tyhicks, jjohansen, sarnold: thanks!
<jdstrand> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Jan  7 18:31:58 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-01-07-18.03.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-01-07-18.03.html
<sarnold> thanks jdstrand :)
<sbeattie> jdstrand: thanks!
<jjohansen> thanks jdstrand
<stokachu> o/
 * Sweetshark waves back at stokachu.
<Laney> !dmb-ping
<ubottu> bdrung, cody-somerville, Laney, micahg, barry, tumbleweed, stgraber: DMB ping
<Laney> ARISE
<cody-somerville> Hi
 * stgraber waves
<cody-somerville> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Jan  7 19:05:43 2013 UTC.  The chair is cody-somerville. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<cody-somerville> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperMembershipBoard/Agenda
<cody-somerville> #topic Review of previous action items
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Review of previous action items
<cody-somerville> Before we begin, do we have quorum?
<micahg> o/
<Laney> |o_
<cody-somerville> Cool. Looks like we do.
<cody-somerville> #subtopic laney to describe criteria and process for lightweight amending of ppu rights (for dds)
<Laney> #link http://people.ubuntu.com/~laney/dynamic-ppu-procedure.txt
<Laney> Since I just did this now, we should talk about it next meeting once everyone has had the chance to read it
<cody-somerville> Agreed.
<cody-somerville> #action DMB members to read proposal and be prepared to vote next meeting on next action
<meetingology> ACTION: DMB members to read proposal and be prepared to vote next meeting on next action
<cody-somerville> #subtopic micahg to ask docs people if they want to apply for a packageset
<micahg> done by e-mail
<cody-somerville> #topic PerPackageUploader Applications
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: PerPackageUploader Applications
<cody-somerville> #subtopic Bjoern Michaelsen for libreoffice
<cody-somerville> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BjoernMichaelsen/DeveloperApplication
 * Sweetshark reporting in.
 * bdrung arrives
<Laney> ah good
<cody-somerville> Sweetshark: Hello. Please introduce yourself and your application.
 * micahg though stokachu was first..
<Sweetshark> cody-somerville: Hi, Im Bjoern Michaelsen, Im maintaining LibreOffice since Natty and apply for package upload right now. ;)
<Sweetshark> You will find the details in the link.
<Sweetshark> (Probably more than enough, If you have questions to something specific, please ask)
<cody-somerville> Sweetshark: Do you have any other upload permissions to Ubuntu at this time?
<Sweetshark> cody-somerville: no.
<Laney> just FYI, I think I better abstain from this since we're on the same team. There's quorum without me anyway so it doesn't matter.
<cody-somerville> Sweetshark: Have you applied for upload permissions previously?
<Laney> and I have to go out hopefully not for long, as I just explained in private
<Sweetshark> cody-somerville: yes: http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2012/03/26/%23ubuntu-meeting.html#t19:01
<barry> Sweetshark: can you talk a little bit about what you've done since then, that address some of the issues brought up in the last meeting?
<Sweetshark> barry: well, for micahgs library version bump question, I think I just misunderstood the question. We discussed it quickly on the day after IIRC. Note that in
<Sweetshark> an ironic twist of history LibreOffice will get ABI incompatible _without_ bumping the so version (a long tale).
<barry> Sweetshark: is that documented anywhere?
<Sweetshark> as for more endoresements: you now have seb128 and didrocks in addition, plus the debian maintainer indirectly (its kinda hard to get a direct commitment to anything ubuntu from rene: he is still rather hostile to ubuntu -- he stated 'ubuntu must die' before and after I joined Canonical on public mailing lists to me. Things are getting a lot better now though)
<bdrung> ABI breakage without so version bump?
<Sweetshark> barry: the conversation with micahg or ABI breakage without version bump?
<barry> Sweetshark: abi
<barry> (although maybe you can also update us on the discusion w/micah)
<Sweetshark> barry: sure -- it was discussed on the LibreOffice ESC meeting over at least a few weeks. I can try to find link for it -- its a complex issue.
<bdrung> Sweetshark: do you see yourself as Ubuntu representative?
<Sweetshark> barry: tl;dr: LibreOffice tries to do minimal changes to the ABI, thus most stuff wont break, but as there is a big ecosystem of (closed source or inhouse) extension for LO/OOo it would be unhelpful to break them indescriminatly esp. if that makes LO and OOO extensions uncompatible,
<Sweetshark> bdrung: sure
<Sweetshark> bdrung: see me wearing Ubuntu shirts at the LibreOffice conference. Or staying longer to also take part in the Ubucon representing all of Ubuntu/Canonical and LibreOffice.
<bdrung> Sweetshark: the upload history indicates a different perspective. the last uploads to raring was 1.5 month ago.
<Sweetshark> (LibreOffice conference and Ubuncon happened back to back in Berlin last year)
<cody-somerville> Five more minutes for questions.
<bdrung> we have a rc2 version in the archive instead of the latest release (which is a bug fix release)
<Sweetshark> bdrung: Raring will ship LO 4.0 thus I will upload that. I am working on preparing that package. As LO 4.0 is still in beta, I do that in the LO prereleases PPA until it is deemed stable enough.
<Sweetshark> bdrung: rc2=final
<Sweetshark> final is a renamed rc2
<bdrung> libreoffice has a MRE, but precise stays at 3.5.4 instead of getting 3.5.7 and quantal has 3.6.2 instead of 3.6.4
<Sweetshark> bdrung: Im currently working on 3.5.7. 3.5.7 has a regression against 3.5.4 thus cant be uploaded as is. The 3.5.7 is actually in precise-proposed.
<bdrung> Sweetshark: ah, i didn't saw 3.5.7 in precise-proposed, because it's stuck in the unapproved queue
<cody-somerville> #vote Bjoern Michaelsen for libreoffice PPU
<meetingology> Please vote on: Bjoern Michaelsen for libreoffice PPU
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<Sweetshark> bdrung: same essentially for 3.6.4/quantal IIRC ...
<barry> +1 [on the strength of the endorsements]
<meetingology> +1 [on the strength of the endorsements] received from barry
<micahg> -1, lack of devel release uploads, still problems with with some uploads
<meetingology> -1, lack of devel release uploads, still problems with with some uploads received from micahg
<bdrung> +0 lack of devel release uploads, i want to be more confident when granting PPU rights for libreoffice. i am willing to sponsor that package.
<meetingology> +0 lack of devel release uploads, i want to be more confident when granting PPU rights for libreoffice. i am willing to sponsor that package. received from bdrung
<Sweetshark> micahg: what devel-release upload did you want to see? 4.0 alpha and beta?
<cody-somerville> +1 Based on endorsements despite concerns shared by colleagues on DMB. Length of contribution and demonstrable experience with upstream project also contributing factors.
<meetingology> +1 Based on endorsements despite concerns shared by colleagues on DMB. Length of contribution and demonstrable experience with upstream project also contributing factors. received from cody-somerville
<stgraber> +0 [I don't like the idea that we should grant PPU just because nobody wants to actually take the time to review this package. If we never had an issue with it, that'd be fine, but that's far from being the case.]
<meetingology> +0 [I don't like the idea that we should grant PPU just because nobody wants to actually take the time to review this package. If we never had an issue with it, that'd be fine, but that's far from being the case.] received from stgraber
<micahg> Sweetshark: well, if not that, 3.6.4
<bdrung> Sweetshark: either 3.6.4 or a pre-release of 4.0 that is stable enough for wider testing
<cody-somerville> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Bjoern Michaelsen for libreoffice PPU
<meetingology> Votes for:2 Votes against:1 Abstentions:2
<meetingology> Motion carried
<cody-somerville> Sweetshark: Unfortunately based on the DMB voting procedure, your application was not successful at this time.
<bdrung> Sweetshark: ping me if you need a sponsor
<cody-somerville> Sweetshark: A member of the DMB will be in contact to help provide you with pointers on what is required for a subsequent application to be successful.
<cody-somerville> #topic Ubuntu Core Developer Applications
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Core Developer Applications
<cody-somerville> #subtopic Adam Stokes for Ubuntu Core Developer
<cody-somerville> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AdamStokes
<cody-somerville> stokachu: Hello. Please introduce yourself and your application.
<stokachu> Hi, names Adam Stokes, I work in Canonical's Sustaining Engineering(SEG). Im applying for core dev in order to further SEG position in maintenance of existing Ubuntu technologies.
<stokachu> As the wiki states I've been contributing to opensource for roughly 8 years and am familiar with processes from both RHEL, Fedora, and Ubuntu
<stokachu> Obiously, since joining Canonical it has been all Ubuntu
<bdrung> stokachu: anything you dislike at Ubuntu and we could learn from RHEL and Fedora?
<stokachu> To be honest, the build system at Fedora is pretty cool
<bdrung> what makes the build system cool?
<stokachu> They use git exclusively with some lookaside caches for the source, a clean interface for creating updates (bohdi), and the build system (koji) which seems to handle builds in almost realtime
<stokachu> For RHEL specifically there are a set of tools which automated RPM verification and errata updates which streamlines the package update process
<cody-somerville> That does sound very interesting.
<stokachu> FYI I dont dislike Ubuntu way of doing things either
<stokachu> :)
<cody-somerville> Any thoughts of getting involved with the Ubuntu build side of things?
<stokachu> Honestly, I have this idea of trying to replicate a build system using git for Ubuntu
<stokachu> but thats a task that'll have to wait until I have more time
<micahg> we've had a blueprint item of sorts from building out of bzr for several cycles
<stokachu> One thing I do think we need since we are entering more of the enterprise market is for an errata system of some sort
<stokachu> that could be attached to package updates for customers/community to understand more clearly
<bdrung> what's the advantage of an errata system over a bug tracker?
<stokachu> Errata system would be simpler overview of what was addressed and would list the bugs associated with the fix
<stokachu> also any cve's addressed etc
<stokachu> along with documentation on how to get those updates and where to go for support
<barry> stokachu: have you used udd and bzr much?  dvcs details aside, are they comparable?
<stokachu> Also we could integrate with documentation team to write a more user friendly sysnopsis of what was fixed
<bdrung> yes, some changelog entries are not user friendly :)
<stokachu> barry: there are similarities and I can say they are comparable as it was easy for me to migrate from a Fedora environment to Ubuntu development
<stokachu> As far as changes go i would like to see a formal procedure for sru's whether it be through merge proposals or debdiffs
<stokachu> seems to be the preference of the one doing the sponsorship
<bdrung> stokachu: have done any sync or merges? do you collaborate with Debian?
<bdrung> stokachu: some sponsors prefer merge proposals and others prefer debdiffs. getting a consensus is hard
<stokachu> I haven't done any collaboration with Debian yet, however, I do contribute heavily to sosreport and did the addition of Debian support. Eventually, I was going to send that to Debian for inclusion
<cody-somerville> stokachu: The DMB would like to ask if you'd consider changing your application today from core-dev to Ubuntu Contributing Developer.
<stokachu> Ive been given mixed directions on which one to apply for
<stokachu> Contributing Developer doesn't have upload rights I was told
<cody-somerville> It does not. However, we think it would be a good stepping stone.
<cody-somerville> An application for UCD today would have a higher probability of success.
<cody-somerville> It's unanimously agreed (albeit unofficially ofcourse) that you're core-dev material but your application is unfortunately lacking at this time.
<stokachu> So what would that get me for UCD? And how would that help me in providing a better support experience to our paying customers?
<micahg> it grants Ubuntu membership and acknowledges your dev contributions to date are worthy of that membership
<micahg> stokachu: why did you apply for membership in the first place?
<bdrung> core-dev are expected to be generalist with experience from syncs/merges to SRUs
<stokachu> It is part of my goal to not only benefit the community from my contributions but more importantly give customers added benefit of having an active Ubuntu engineer fixing their issues
<stokachu> I guess im applying for UCD at this time
<cody-somerville> stokachu: The developer membership board is a body that recognizes contributions to the Ubuntu project and are stewards of upload privileges to the benefit of the Ubuntu project. Providing support to Canonical's paying customers is not under our purview or within our scope of direct consideration though is recognized.
<stokachu> Ill reapply for core-dev when I have more syncs/merges from Debian then
<cody-somerville> stokachu: I think such an endeavour would be HIGHLY successful. Thank you. :)
<cody-somerville> The board will now consider your application for UCD and vote.
<cody-somerville> #vote Ubuntu Contributing Developer for Adam Stokes
<meetingology> Please vote on: Ubuntu Contributing Developer for Adam Stokes
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<barry> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from barry
<micahg> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from micahg
<cody-somerville> +1 Excellent application. Strong endorsements. On clear path to becoming core-dev in the future.
<bdrung> +1 [ i will be happy to see you again in some months applying for core-dev with some experience with syncs/merges ]
<meetingology> +1 Excellent application. Strong endorsements. On clear path to becoming core-dev in the future. received from cody-somerville
<meetingology> +1 [ i will be happy to see you again in some months applying for core-dev with some experience with syncs/merges ] received from bdrung
<stgraber> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from stgraber
<cody-somerville> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Ubuntu Contributing Developer for Adam Stokes
<meetingology> Votes for:5 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<cody-somerville> Congratulations stokachu.
 * barry has to leave
<stokachu> sweet! thanks all
<Laney> congrats
<stokachu> Will someone email me any recommended paths I should look at wrt Debian syncs/merges?
<stokachu> My thinking is to go 4-6 months and re-apply after I've done some of that work
<cody-somerville> stokachu: A member of the DMB will send you a quick e-mail after the meeting with some tips.
<cody-somerville> #topic Any Other Business
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Any Other Business
<stokachu> awesome, thanks for everyone's time
<bdrung> stokachu: i think we should continue this discussion on #ubuntu-devel
<cody-somerville> Any other business before I close the meeting?
<bdrung> yes
<bdrung> 4 DMB members expire on 2013-02-13
<bdrung> we need to have a selection for new members till then
<Laney> Call for nominations now, start voting 2 weeks beforehand
<Laney> or 10 days, or whatever
<Laney> bdrung: do you want to run it?
<Sweetshark> bdrung: I never fail to get sponsors ;). They are just increasingly annoyed by having to sponsor other peoples work, thus asking me to apply. The only thing I _personally_ want the rights for that it also lets me on planet ubuntu.
<Sweetshark> bdrung: there is no time for that. uploading 3.6.4 would require forwardporting (and developing 3.6 on raring in addition to 4.0 on raring, 3.6 on quantal and 3.5 on precise), as seen from the naive uncoordinated update upload of 3.6 to raring which instantly broke (NOT by me). Uploads to a mismatching series (that is anything other than 4.0/raring, 3.6/quantal, 3.5/precise) have to be optional unless we change our policy on the version we 
<Sweetshark> bdrung: there is no time for that. uploading 3.6.4 would require forwardporting (and developing 3.6 on raring in addition to 4.0 on raring, 3.6 on quantal and 3.5 on precise), as seen from the naive update upload of 3.6 to raring which instantly broke (not by me). Uploads to a mismatching series (that is anything other than 4.0/raring, 3.6/quantal, 3.5/precise) have to be optional unless we change our policy on the version we want in the re
<Sweetshark> So there were intentionally no uploads to the dev release up until now and only uploads to the prereleases PPA. And that is published and accepted policy.
<bdrung> we had 2 weeks voting time
<Laney> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncil/Restaffing
<bdrung> Laney: no :)
<Laney> what
<bdrung> i don't want to run the election if someone else will do it
<Laney> oh, ok sure I don't mind
<Laney> unless someone else wants to
<cody-somerville> Sounds good.
<cody-somerville> or wait
<bdrung> thanks Laney for volunteering
<Laney> I am one of those expiring though, if that makes a difference
<cody-somerville> Should election be run by someone expiring/possibly running again?
<Laney> if I decide to run again I'll let someone else do the poll
<cody-somerville> Laney: I think you should run again. :)
<cody-somerville> #action DMB to sort out re-election stuff.
<meetingology> ACTION: DMB to sort out re-election stuff.
<cody-somerville> Thanks folks. Great meeting. Look to ml for minutes and what not later today.
<cody-somerville> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Jan  7 20:17:03 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-01-07-19.05.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-01-07-19.05.html
<pitti> o/
<soren> o/
<cjwatson> hi
 * soren finally managed to align his calendar with reality
<soren> Who's driving? Me?
<pitti> I drove the last two times
<pitti> not that there's much to drive anyway
<soren> True.
 * soren volunteers
 * stgraber waves
<soren> Alright, let's get this show started.
<soren> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Jan  7 21:02:34 2013 UTC.  The chair is soren. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
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<soren> I don't see any apologies on the ML.
<soren> So next item on the agenda is action items.
<soren> pitti: Brainstorm review?
<pitti> my review resulted in 7 items, 3 of which got a response
<pitti> the other four are still outstanding
<pitti> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoard/BrainstormReview/Dec2012
<pitti> not very surprising with the holidays in between, etc. I asked for a response until mid-january
<cjwatson> Sorry, one of those is mine
<cjwatson> Still outstanding - plan is to simply fix the problem described
<soren> cjwatson: How radical.
 * soren still trying to find the irc log from last meeting.
<soren> ...to find action items.
<pitti> it's not a hard deadline anyway; I also didn't have a very formal way of strictly picking the top ten or so, I just grabbed the ones which seemed interesting and not already obsoleted by design
<pitti> soren: there weren't any except the brainstorm review
<cjwatson> soren: gotta happen occasionally
<soren> Cool.
<soren> pitti: Did you comment on the ones you intentionally skipped?
<soren> Saying that they're obsolete or whatever?
<pitti> I didn't, no
<soren> Can we expire things from brainstorm?
<pitti> many are about software-center, which is currently being rewritten the upteenth time
<soren> Or do their popularity decay over time?
<pitti> if nobody votes them up any more, they decline, yes
<pitti> I looked at "most popular in the last 6 months"
<soren> Ah, cool.
<pitti> that said, even the most popular one wasn't very popular
<pitti> it seems the whole thing is losing momentum
<soren> As long as they (probably) don't wind up beig the same ignored one next time we do the review, that's fine.
<soren> pitti: I'm sure one could draw number of conclusions from that fact.
<pitti> nah, that's where the "subjective filter" comes into play :)
<soren> pitti: Right, right, I was just concerned we'd end up with the same stale ones at the top every time and we'd have to routinely start at item 37 before we got to anything that was still remotely current :)
<pitti> no, that didn't seem to happen
<soren> Yay.
<soren> Ok, moving on.
<soren> Er..
<soren> #topic Stuff from the mailing list.
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Stuff from the mailing list.
<cjwatson> that wasn't my experience in doing the review a while back, either
<soren> There's the MRE for sssd.
<soren> That was tjaalton's one, wasn't it?
<cjwatson> Timo's reply is satisfactory enough; I'm minded to approve if nobody objects
<cjwatson> (it only takes one)
<soren> If someone actively cares for it, I'm perfectly fine with it.
<pitti> I have no strong opinion on that one TBH, as I don't know at all what that package does and how bad regressions would be
<soren> Anything else we've missed?
<soren> I don't think so.
<soren> #topic Community bugs
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Community bugs
<soren> None.
<soren> #topic AOB?
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB?
<pitti> nothing from me
<soren> 3
<soren> 2
<soren> 1
<soren> Sold
<soren> #action Next meeting
<meetingology> ACTION: Next meeting
<soren> That'll be Jan 21st.
<soren> At 2100 UTC.
<soren> Who's chairing?
<cjwatson> rotation would be stgraber
<soren> I can do it again. I probably owe a few times.
<stgraber> I'm fine with that
<stgraber> (as in, me doing it)
<soren> Thanks for clarifying :)
<pitti> what happened to the "barely can fit that meeting in an hour, with heated discussion" times? :-)
<pitti> (not that I miss them at that late hour)
<pitti> thanks soren
<soren> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Jan  7 21:15:41 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-01-07-21.02.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-01-07-21.02.html
<soren> Adjourned.
 * pitti waves good night
#ubuntu-meeting 2013-01-08
<m_3> #startmeeting ubuntu-server-team
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Jan  8 16:00:18 2013 UTC.  The chair is m_3. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
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* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:
<jamespage> o/
<arosales> Hello
<yolanda> hi
<Daviey> hey!
<smb> \o
<m_3> hi all... happy new year!!!
<m_3> #topic Review ACTION points from previous meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:  Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<m_3> #topic Review ACTION points from previous meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:  Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<m_3> crap... one sec
<m_3> move to http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-r-tracking-bug-tasks.html#server for release bug tracking
<arosales> Daviey: jamespage ^ is that ready?
<arosales> ie all the bugs pertinent at hhttp://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-r-tracking-bug-tasks.html#serverÂ 
<jamespage> arosales, I don't think si
<jamespage> so
 * arosales updated the IRC commands to only use http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-r-tracking-bug-tasks.html#serverÂ 
<jamespage> I'll deal with that (new years resolution #1)
<m_3> which relates to the next one?
<m_3> deprecate http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ubuntu-server/release-bugs.html
<Daviey> super
<arosales> jamespage: thank you
<m_3> ok, roaksoax to review MAAS bugs, and sync with upstream
<m_3> anyone... anyone... bueller?
<arosales> I don't think roaksoax is here . . .
<m_3> ok, so arosales to investigate why status tracker is not picking up servercloud area
<arosales> m_3: this is done. It was mainly due to us updating after feature freeze
<arosales> and some blueprints having "work items" in the white board
<m_3> ok, so maybe this one is old too? "jamespage, smoser: we need to review/approve the final few BPs for the release and then retarget"
<arosales> so good thing to take note of in blueprints to _not_ include the string, "work item" in the white board
<arosales> all servercloud blueprints should be updated now, and we have a burn down :-)
<arosales> http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-raring/group/topic-raring-servercloud-overview.html
<m_3> heartfelt yay from the stands
<arosales> roaksoax to review MAAS bugs, and sync with upstream
 * arosales sees roaksoax joined 
<Daviey> roaksoax: ?
<roaksoax> arosales: howdy! So MAAS work for precise is pretty much done
<roaksoax> arosales: SRU's have been sitting there for ages, hence, they are still there
<roaksoax> arosales: initially we had the plan to SRU everything, but it seems that we will no longer to be able to do so
<roaksoax> arosales: so we are going to have to talk to the TB to get whatever we need
<roaksoax> we will have to request and exception
<roaksoax> Daviey: ^^
<roaksoax> smoser: ^^
<arosales> roaksoax: ok, thanks for the update. Let us know what you find.
<m_3> #topic Raring Development
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:  Raring Development
<m_3> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RaringRingtail/ReleaseSchedule
<m_3> #subtopic Release Bugs
<smoser> roaksoax, that looks right to me.
<m_3> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-r-tracking-bug-tasks.html#server
<m_3> and
<m_3> #link http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ubuntu-server/release-bugs.html
<m_3> shall we go through the reds?
<m_3> http://launchpad.net/bugs/1081212
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1081212 in maas (Ubuntu Quantal) "The address of the API in pserv.conf (tftp/generator) is http://localhost/MAAS/api/1.0/pxeconfig/" [Critical,Triaged]
<arosales> m_3: most are maas related
<jamespage> m_3: park the maas
<jamespage> ones
<m_3> ack
<arosales> roaksoax: smoser is this due to the SRUs?
<smoser> is what due to srus?
<arosales> 3 critical maas bugs
<arosales> smoser: http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-r-tracking-bug-tasks.html#server
<roaksoax> some of them are
<m_3> what about http://launchpad.net/bugs/1090482
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1090482 in cloud-init (Ubuntu Quantal) "over-riding distro config still broken" [High,In progress]
<smoser> m_3, i have to look at that. i think i have a fix in -proposed
<m_3> ok, some more "high"s
<m_3> http://launchpad.net/bugs/1076747
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1076747 in quantum (Ubuntu Raring) "The Quantum OVS plugin should not depend on openvswitch-switch " [High,Fix committed]
<jamespage> that will flush through with Openstack Grizzly g2
<m_3> cool... http://launchpad.net/bugs/1085038
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1085038 in quantum (Ubuntu Raring) "Python Modules : Wrong versions" [High,Fix committed]
<jamespage> ditto
<m_3> ack
<m_3> #subtopic Blueprints
<m_3> #link http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-raring/ubuntu-server.html
<arosales> http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-raring/group/topic-raring-servercloud-overview.html may be a better one
<m_3> arosales: thanks, I just found that one
 * arosales updated IRCCcommands
<m_3> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-r-juju-appserver-support
<arosales> perhaps since of the essentials that are not started for the new year
<arosales> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-r-openstack-ha
<arosales> roaksoax: ^
<m_3> what he said ^^
<jamespage> arosales, thats moving fowards OK
<roaksoax> arosales: in progress
<roaksoax> hacluster charm exists, quantum is almost done. keystone is almost done
<arosales> zul: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-r-openstack-grizzly also in progress?
<roaksoax> currently working on mysql
<zul> awlays!
<m_3> I guess the important thing to ask about in any of these is blockers
<arosales> roaksoax: thanks.  bbcmicrocomputer is also going to take a look at mysql so you may want to sync up with him.
<m_3> does anyone have blockers that the rest of the team needs to know about or be reminded about?
<arosales> the mysql charm that is.
<m_3> ok, shall we move on to events or do we want to spend more time with blueprints?
<arosales> btw, it looks like some of the topic blueprints for servercloud aren't pulling in _all_ the contributing BPs.  I'll investigate.
<arosales> +1 to move on m_3
<m_3> #action arosales to investigate blueprint danglers
<meetingology> ACTION: arosales to investigate blueprint danglers
<m_3> #topic Ubuntu Server Team Events
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:  Ubuntu Server Team Events
<m_3> scale's coming up next month
<arosales> m_3: http://www.socallinuxexpo.org/scale11x/
<arosales> m_3: and jcastro at that one I think.
<m_3> anything else?
<jamespage> fosdem is at the start of Feb
<m_3> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
<m_3> hggdh: ?
<m_3> pins dropping... no questions for QA
<m_3> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
<smb> This --><-- is how much work smb was doing in the previous weeks. So nothing to report. ;)
<smb> ..
<arosales> smb :-). Sounds like it was an excellent break then
<m_3> awesome
<smb> arosales, Could have been even longer. :)
<arosales> as always ;-)
<m_3> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions regarding Ubuntu ARM Server (rbasak)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions regarding Ubuntu ARM Server (rbasak)
<rbasak> Nothing new to report. Any questions for me?
<m_3> nope
<m_3> #topic Open Discussion
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:  Open Discussion
<m_3> how bout them phones?
<m_3> cool... thanks everybody!
<m_3> #topic Announce next meeting date and time
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:  Announce next meeting date and time
<m_3> same bat time/channel
<arosales> Thanks m_3 for chairing
<m_3> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Jan  8 16:27:55 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-01-08-16.00.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-01-08-16.00.html
<jamespage> thanks m_3
 * m_3 bows
<Daviey> i want an after 8 mint.
<Daviey> err, thanks for chairing m_3
<m_3> next time I'll try more coffee _before_ the meeting... maybe I'll be less punchy ;)
<arosales> looked good to me
<jsalisbury> #startmeeting
<jsalisbury> ##
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Jan  8 17:01:23 2013 UTC.  The chair is jsalisbury. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<jsalisbury> ## This is the Ubuntu Kernel Team weekly status meeting.
<jsalisbury> ##
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/raring
<jsalisbury> # Meeting Etiquette
<jsalisbury> #
<jsalisbury> # NOTE: '..' indicates that you are finished with your input.
<jsalisbury> #       'o/' indicates you have something to add (please wait until you are recognized)
<jsalisbury> Roll Call for Ubuntu Kernel Weekly Status Meeting
<ppisati> o/
<henrix> o/
<bjf> -
<smb> \o
<ogasawara> o/
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] ARM Status (ppisati)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: ARM Status (ppisati)
<ppisati> R/master: working on multiplatform (and dtb) support, but except for that, nothing to report this week.
<ppisati> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
<jsalisbury> Release metrics and incoming bug data can be reviewed at the following link:
<jsalisbury> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/kt-meeting.txt
<jsalisbury> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Milestone Targeted Work Items (ogasawara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Milestone Targeted Work Items (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> [LINK] https://launchpad.net/~canonical-kernel-distro-team/+upcomingwork
<ogasawara> || apw         || hardware-r-kernel-config-review       || 9 work items ||
<ogasawara> ||             || hardware-r-delta-review               || 4 work items ||
<ogasawara> ||             || hardware-r-arm-kernel-maintenance     || 2 work items ||
<ogasawara> ||             || hardware-r-kernel-misc                || 4 work items ||
<ogasawara> ||             || foundations-r-x32-planning            || 2 work items ||
<ogasawara> ||             || desktop-r-clean-old-kernels           || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> || ogasawara   || hardware-r-kernel-config-review       || 2 work items ||
<ogasawara> || ppisati     || hardware-r-kernel-config-review       || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> ||             || hardware-r-kernel-version-and-flavors || 2 work items ||
<ogasawara> ||             || hardware-r-delta-review               || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> || sconklin    || hardware-r-arm-power-measurement      || 3 work items ||
<ogasawara> || rtg         || hardware-r-delta-review               || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Raring Development Kernel (ogasawara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Raring Development Kernel (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> We have rebased the Raring kernel to the latest v3.8-rc2 upstream
<ogasawara> kernel.  We have held off on uploading until we have resolved some DKMS
<ogasawara> package build failures.  Everyone should also review the
<ogasawara> ubuntu-raring/dropped.txt file to review anything that may have
<ogasawara> inadvertantly gone missing after the rebase.
<ogasawara> Important upcoming dates:
<ogasawara>  * Raring:
<ogasawara>   * Fri Jan 18 - 13.04 Month 3 Milestone (1 week)
<ogasawara>   * Mon Feb 18 - 13.04 Month 4 Milestone (~6 weeks)
<ogasawara>  * Precise:
<ogasawara>   * Thu Jan 10 - 12.04.2 Kernel Freeze (~2 days)
<ogasawara>   * Thu Feb 14 - 12.04.2 Release (~5 weeks)
<ogasawara> ..
<rtg> tseliot says he'll have the last DKMS issues fixed tomorrow
<rtg> ...
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: CVE's (henrix)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: CVE's (henrix)
<apw> rtg, we may have -rc3 by then as well ..
<henrix> Currently we have 33 CVEs on our radar, with 4 CVE added and 2 CVEs retired since last meeting (11th Dec).
<henrix> See the CVE matrix for the current list:
<henrix> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/cve/pkg/ALL-linux.html
<henrix> Overall the backlog has decreased slightly this week:
<henrix> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/status/cve-metrics.txt
<henrix> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/cve/pkg/CVE-linux.txt
<henrix> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Quantal/Precise/Oneiric/Lucid/Hardy (bjf/herton/henrix)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Quantal/Precise/Oneiric/Lucid/Hardy (bjf/herton/henrix)
<henrix> Here is the status for the main kernels, until today (January 08):
<henrix>  * Hardy - Nothing in this cycle
<henrix>  * Lucid - In Testing; 1 CVE; (2 commits)
<henrix>  * Oneiric - In Verification; 2 CVEs; 4 upstream stable release(s); (78 commits)
<henrix>  * Precise - In Verification; 3 CVEs; 1 upstream stable release(s); (104 commits)
<henrix>  * Quantal - In Verification; 3 CVEs; 1 upstream stable release(s); (254 commits)
<henrix> Current opened tracking bugs details:
<henrix>  * http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/kernel-sru-workflow.html
<henrix> For SRUs, SRU report is a good source of information:
<henrix>  * http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/sru-report.html
<henrix> Future stable cadence cycles:
<henrix>  * https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RaringRingtail/ReleaseInterlock
<henrix> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
<jsalisbury> Thanks everyone
<jsalisbury> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Jan  8 17:08:01 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-01-08-17.01.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-01-08-17.01.html
#ubuntu-meeting 2013-01-09
<stokachu> o/
<jodh> \o
<cjwatson> hi
<cjwatson> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Jan  9 16:02:56 2013 UTC.  The chair is cjwatson. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<cjwatson> #topic lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: lightning round
<cjwatson> $ echo $(shuf -e barry bdmurray cjwatson ev doko ogra_ jodh stgraber xnox)
<cjwatson> stgraber jodh bdmurray cjwatson ev doko ogra_ xnox barry
<stokachu> aww
<cjwatson> oh DAMNIT
<cjwatson> sorry, I always go down the directory from Steve
<cjwatson> and as a result I always miss you :-(
<cjwatson> stokachu: go first, then :-)
<stokachu> lol its cool
<stokachu> ok
<stokachu> - sick last week been catching up on internal bugs
<stokachu> - finished packaging firefox esr for certain interested parties
<stokachu> - got accepted into UCD, next stop Core-dev
<stokachu> - reviewing merge/sync documentation both traditional way and UDD
<stokachu> - working on sosreport plugins for Debian/Ubuntu https://github.com/sosreport/sosreport
<stokachu> done
<cjwatson> perhaps stgraber isn't around
<cjwatson> jodh: ?
<stgraber> I'm, sorry
<stgraber>  - Upstart
<stgraber>   - Tested stateful re-exec of the user session daemon
<stgraber>   - Initial implementation of the UPSTART_SESSION environment variable to access the session daemon when DBus isn't around
<cjwatson> aha
<stgraber>  - Container
<stgraber>   - Code reviews.
<stgraber>   - Quite a lot of work on bionic support, sent first version of the patchset, then did a lot of changes and got the v2 merged an hour ago.
<stgraber>   - Started porting libcap to bionic so we can have a bionic build of LXC drop the usual capabilities and stop causing the host to reboot on shutdown/reboot of the container.
<stgraber>  - Other
<stgraber>   - Some follow-up on a weird biosdevname issue.
<stgraber>  - Networking
<stgraber>   - Discussed ifupdown a bit with Andrew. Some changes in the HG branch may cause some problems on Ubuntu, will have to keep watching.
<stgraber>  - TODO
<stgraber>   - Get my upstart branch in shape for review.
<stgraber>   - Finish porting libcap to bionic.
<stgraber>   - Go through the isc-dhcp and resolvconf bugs.
<stgraber>   - Try to apply redhat's fiberchannel patchset to our isc-dhcp.
<stgraber> (DONE)
<jodh> * Upstart:
<jodh>   - Fixed tty-serial.conf (bug 702574), soon to be added to raring branch.
<jodh>   - Fixed bug 881885 and raised MP.
<jodh>   - Investigating bug 1096531.
<ubottu> bug 702574 in upstart (Ubuntu) "getty should be started automatically on serial port when serial console is set on kernel command line" [Wishlist,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/702574
<jodh>   - Finished init and initctl code to manipulate job environments (see
<ubottu> bug 881885 in upstart "init-checkconf fails when X not running or DISPLAY not set" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/881885
<ubottu> bug 1096531 in upstart (Ubuntu) "After touch /forcefsck and reboot: Assertion failed in log_clear_unflushed" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1096531
<jodh> * TODO:
<jodh>   - write tests for job environment manipulation APIs.
<jodh> â§
<bdmurray> tested fix for bug 1072828
<bdmurray> tested bug 915626 regarding usb-creator crashes
<bdmurray> SRU verification of bug 1071388
<bdmurray> SRU verification of apport in precise
<ubottu> bug 1072828 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu) "[REGRESSION] release upgrader tool became untranslated" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1072828
<ubottu> bug 915626 in usb-creator (Ubuntu Quantal) "usb-creator-gtk crashed with SIGSEGV" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/915626
<ubottu> bug 1071388 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu Quantal) "UnicodeDecodeError in askYesNoQuestion of DistUpgradeViewText.py" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1071388
<bdmurray> modified pending-sru report to show date of last comment as it is easier to remember dates than comments
<bdmurray> irc discussion with evan and mpt regarding rank of errors
<bdmurray> worked on source package rank sorting issue in errors
<bdmurray> worked on subscribed packages view for errors in the cloud
<jodh> oops - that 'see' in my report should refer to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/Specs/RaringUpstartUserSessions#Core
<bdmurray> wrote pycassa code to get oops count on a weekly basis for Ubuntu 12.10
<bdmurray> subscribed foundations-bugs to libsemanage and ustr packages
<bdmurray> â done
<cjwatson> GRUB: Pushed some patches to Debian; converted to GCC 4.7; merged back into Ubuntu.
<cjwatson> 12.04.2:
<cjwatson>  - Discussion of work needed for xorg enablement stack.  Need to get moving on this in the coming week.
<cjwatson>  - Uploaded djview4 and grub2 SRUs.
<cjwatson>  - Fixed sawfish bug 1083260 for precise/quantal/raring at a friend's request.
<ubottu> bug 1083260 in sawfish (Ubuntu Quantal) "Can't resize Firefox 17.0 window with sawfish" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1083260
<cjwatson>  - Fixed Chinese edition image build failures.
<cjwatson> Cross-building: Fixed patch, xz-utils, kmod, and hopefully xterm.
<cjwatson> Lots of merges and random build/upgrade fixes.
<cjwatson> Caught up on archive removals a bit.
<cjwatson> Sorted out most of the tail-end of the opencv transition by way of a messy gluegen2/armhf build fix.  Need to do something similar to libjogl2-java.
<cjwatson> Working on backporting support for :any and :native build-dependencies to the Debian buildds, so that we stop having to carry such things as Ubuntu deltas.
<cjwatson> ..
<ogra_> heh, sawfish still has users ?
<doko> cjwatson, did kmod need anything besides dropping b-d's?
<cjwatson> doko: that was all
 * xnox doesn't even know what sawfish is =) i think i should be glad.
<cjwatson> xnox: a WM
<ev> - Very short week. Holiday until Friday, then off again on Monday.
<ev> - Continuing to get the charms ready for prodstack, battling Canonistack every step of the way.
<ev>   - Waiting to hear back if we still have an EC2 credit as we desperately need to expand the number of retracers (we're getting a lot more core files) and we can't do that until we have everything on prodstack.
<ev> (done)
<cjwatson> ogra_: evidence suggests at least two :-)
<ogra_> ev ?!?!
<ev> hm?
<ogra_> thats a record in shortness
<cjwatson> doko: I suspect perl:native would have done too once it's supported, but it wasn't necessary
<ev> heh
<doko> - getting the buildd chroot nearly cross-built
<doko> - updating cross toolchain packages, trying to eliminate more ad hoc solutions
<doko> - some test rebuild fixes and give-backs
<doko> ..
<ogra_> done:
<ogra_>  * read the 3800 mail backlog from vacation
<ogra_>  * fixed ureadahead on the nexus7
<ogra_>  * worked on initrd-less booting on the nexus7
<ogra_>  * slightly stuck on trying to get plymouth to work without having console-setup run from the initrd
<ogra_> todo:
<ogra_>  * discuss livefs builder situation with infinity (we need to start building nx7 images for flavours, that will need some cut down in buildtime or more builders)
<ogra_>  * move nx7 images to xz compression (and probably move compressing from livefs builder to nusakan)
<ogra_>  * fix plymouth vs console-setup racing somehow
<ogra_>  * package tegra3 gstreamer codecs for raring
<ogra_> ..
<xnox> * Fixed bug #1091788 , bug #1093957
<xnox> * Fixed warnings in cunit, for MIR bug #1077484
<xnox> * Fixed rebuild ftbfs: multiarch py2 - libsemanage, python-qt4;
<xnox>   pep8 - apt-btrfs-snapshot;
<xnox> * Cross-building buildd chroot: dbus (added m-a header), libnih (needs
<xnox>   :native b-d support, but otherwise fixed), libsemanage (add
<xnox>   DEB_STAGE)
<ubottu> bug 1091788 in partman-auto-lvm (Ubuntu Precise) "debian-installer: creation of volume group (LVM) fails if hostname corresponds with an existing device name" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1091788
<xnox> * Upstart overrides from any dir merged, thanks james for review
<ubottu> bug 1093957 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "Disk Encryption should be a sub-selection of LVM" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1093957
<ubottu> bug 1077484 in ustr (Ubuntu) "[MIR] libsemanage (shadow's rdep to continue SELinux support in shadow)" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1077484
<xnox> ..
<barry> looked into claws-m-p-e build failures when syncing from debian: libgdata/libcurl4-{gnutls,nss}-dev mess kills us again.  bug 1095407.  bug 1077087.  bug 1077089. upstream oauthlib issue 86.  py3 porting: lazr.smtptest, lazr.delegates, lazr.config (inprogress).  evaluating pillow (friendly PIL port for py3).  helped with a few lp:friends issues. started looking at mvo's sqlite fts branches for software-center (hopefully to drop xapian
<barry> dependency).  dmb meeting. done.
<ubottu> bug 1095407 in oneconf (Ubuntu) "Re-enable Python 2 support" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1095407
<ubottu> bug 1077087 in Ubuntu Single Sign On Client "Switch from python-oauth to python-oauthlib" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1077087
<ubottu> bug 1077089 in Ubuntu One Client "Switch from python-oauth to python-oauthlib" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1077089
<xnox> barry: what's speed comparison of sqlite vs xapian for software-center use case? i hope that incremental indexing is faster.
<barry> xnox: i don't know that yet ;)
<barry> i'd be happy if it was in the same ballpark
<xnox> ah. I takes quite a chunk of installation time to generate software-center index.... /me even considered having initial index in the package *gasp*
<doko> barry: I already have pillow packaging
<barry> doko: yeah, i saw that comment.  please provide url.  (my packaging isn't meant to be definitive, just enough to evaluate upstream)
<barry> doko: i build from a github pull request which is fixing py3 issues
<bdmurray> cjwatson: ?
<cjwatson> oh, sorry
<cjwatson> distracted :)
<cjwatson> #topic bugs
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: bugs
<cjwatson> anything we should be looking at this week that we aren't already?
<bdmurray> bug 1078810 regarding quantal had a recent comment that allowed me to recreate the bug (most of the time)
<ubottu> bug 1078810 in usb-creator (Ubuntu) "usb-creator-helper crashed with ImportError in __main__: No module named 'gobject'" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1078810
<xnox> interesting!
<bdmurray> er, whoops
<bdmurray> yes, that's a bug we should look but my comment was about another bug
<cjwatson> oh dear, missing pygi porting
<barry> dang
 * xnox will look into it.
<xnox> helper script is small
<bdmurray> okay, thanks xnox
<bdmurray> my comment regarding being able to recreate a usb-creator bug on quantal was about bug 915626
<ubottu> bug 915626 in usb-creator (Ubuntu Quantal) "usb-creator-gtk crashed with SIGSEGV" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/915626
<xnox> still good =)
<bdmurray> I'd test it raring butâ¦
<cjwatson> But it's completely screwed due to the prior bug? :)
<bdmurray> right
<xnox> =)))))))
<cjwatson> xnox: can you take 915626 as well, then?
<xnox> i guess i win both =)
<bdmurray> It seems like we should look at reviewing the branch associated with bug 1095692 for the 12.04 point release
<ubottu> bug 1095692 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "Hide the 'back' button on the first page of oem-user-config" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1095692
<cjwatson> bdmurray: Yep - I'll do that today
<xnox> that's not merged into raring yet ?!
<cjwatson> bdmurray: assigned to me, prodded bug metadata
<bdmurray> okay, thanks
 * xnox has .changes ready to make ubiquity upload into raring. Can I still do it (to test if partman fixes resolve hangs) or cjwatson you'll do an upload today?
<bdmurray> Then I'm curious how worthwhile is it to SRU bug 1078544.
<ubottu> bug 1078544 in aptdaemon (Ubuntu Quantal) "python-aptdaemon: upgrading marks auto-installed packages as manual" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1078544
<cjwatson> xnox: I'll review/commit and you can upload whenever's convenient
<cjwatson> xnox: no need to block on me, I can put it in the next version along if I need to
<xnox> ack.
<cjwatson> I suspect that infinity would still like to sort out that aptdaemon bug, based on his comments about kernel autoremoval; it might be worth asking him
<cjwatson> oh, which reminds me, infinity sent apologies, but:
<cjwatson> 12:39 <infinity> cjwatson: The only real point of interest from me is glibc_2.17 that should be landing when the test rebuild is done (about half done rebasing all the patches for experimental, then the Ubuntu
<cjwatson>                  merge will be trivial on top of that)
<cjwatson> bdmurray: anything else?
<bdmurray> xnox: did you have any luck with the kernel and testing bug 1023645?
<ubottu> bug 1023645 in ndiswrapper (Ubuntu Quantal) "ndiswrapper-dkms 1.57-1ubuntu1: ndiswrapper kernel module failed to build [error: âstruct kernel_statâ has no member named âcpustatâ]" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1023645
<xnox> bdmurray: a few people i poked do not have ndiswrapper hardware.
<xnox> anybody here has hw that can take ndiswrapped windows drivers?
<xnox> (people i know tend to choose hardware for ubuntu though)
<bdmurray> well if nobody has hardware to test then that's it from me
<cjwatson> thanks
<cjwatson> #topic AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<cjwatson> anyone?
<xnox> loads of precise pending srus and bugs in the report.
<cjwatson> which report?
<xnox> maybe we should go through them and see what should be targetted at 12.04.2
<xnox> rls-tracking & pending-sru
<cjwatson> ok, quite possibly, not here though
<xnox> http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/precise-updates-bug-tasks.html
<cjwatson> jodh: is the upstart/armhf build failure on precise racy, i.e. might it go away if we retry?
<xnox> http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/precise-updates-bug-tasks.html
<cjwatson> jodh: https://launchpadlibrarian.net/126984012/buildlog_ubuntu-precise-armhf.upstart_1.5-0ubuntu7.1_FAILEDTOBUILD.txt.gz
<jodh> cjwatson: dang - looks like that is the ol' "missing \n race again, so yeah :)
<cjwatson> jo	OK, I've mashed retry
<cjwatson> gah, lag
<cjwatson> OK, nearly out of time and it sounds like that's all
<cjwatson> Thanks everyone
<cjwatson> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Jan  9 16:50:30 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-01-09-16.02.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-01-09-16.02.html
<xnox> cheers
<stgraber> thanks!
<solarcloud_3scrn> Is there supposed to be a Lubuntu meeting on right now ??
#ubuntu-meeting 2013-01-10
 * xnox shuffles feet
<highvoltage> what are you doing, xnox
<xnox> haven't decided yet
<solarcloud_3scrn> Isn't there supposed to be a nexus 7 meeting on right now ??
<solarcloud_3scrn> Which one of you is Jono Bacon .. the organiser ?
<ogra_> solarcloud_3scrn, many of us are still on vacation or traveling (and we usually had the nexus7 meetings on fridays)
<ogra_> we'll soon pick them up again ... for general nx7 questions you can drop by in #ubuntu-arm
<solarcloud_3scrn> ogra_, Oh ok .. got wrong date, sorry.
<solarcloud_3scrn> It's Ubuntu accomplishments tonight @ 7pm till 8pm.
#ubuntu-meeting 2014-01-06
<jdstrand> hi!
<tyhicks> hello!
<mdeslaur> \o
<chrisccoulson> hi!
<mdeslaur> hiya chrisccoulson!
<chrisccoulson> hi mdeslaur
<jjohansen> hey
<jdstrand> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Jan  6 16:32:59 2014 UTC.  The chair is jdstrand. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<jdstrand> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<jdstrand> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Announcements
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Announcements
<jdstrand> Happy new year! Welcome back and I hope everyone had a nice break :)
<mdeslaur> happy new year!
<jdstrand> thanks to Jonathan Riddell (Riddell) provided debdiffs for precise-saucy for qt4-x11 (LP: #1259577)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1259577 in qtbase-opensource-src (Ubuntu Trusty) "Security: XML Entity Expansion Denial of Service" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1259577
<jdstrand> thanks to Jonathan Riddell (Riddell) provided debdiffs for raring-saucy for qtbase-opensource-src (LP: #1259577)
<jdstrand> thanks to Stefan Bader (smb) provided debdiffs for precise-saucy for xen
<jdstrand> Your work is very much appreciated and will keep Ubuntu users secure. Great job! :)"
 * Riddell bows
<jdstrand> heh :)
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<jdstrand> I'll go first
<jdstrand> I'm apparently in the happy place this week. not sure how I got here, but I'll take it :)
<mdeslaur> jdstrand: you won the dice roll :)
<chrisccoulson> congratulations!
<jdstrand> I have pending updates and work items, though most of the beginning of this week will be working on going through my holiday backlog
<jdstrand> \o/
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: you're next
<mdeslaur> I'm on triage this week
<mdeslaur> I have a couple of pending updates I'm testing which should get released this week
<mdeslaur> like puppet this afternoon probably
<mdeslaur> I also have some catching up to do
<mdeslaur> and I think I'm on patch piloting on friday
<mdeslaur> that's about it
<mdeslaur> sbeattie: you're up
<sbeattie> I'm on apparmor again this week
<sbeattie> I need to sync up with jjohansen on IPC stuff
<sbeattie> I also need to review his dfa minimization patch (and the bug fix for the issue it exposed) as it gives a pretty big policy compilation win.
<mdeslaur> oh cool...do we know how big?
<jjohansen> it varies with the dfa
<jjohansen> but there are several examples
<sbeattie> another 20%-ish gain, though for certain things like the evince profile with likewise-open variables added, it shaves 50-60% off of compilation time.
<jdstrand> that is the one that doesn't do much for the click apps, correct?
<mdeslaur> oh, nice!
<sbeattie> (23 seconds down to 9 seconds or so)
<jdstrand> or was that something else?
<sbeattie> (on my laptop)
<jdstrand> btw, these compilation speedups are truly awesome :)
<sbeattie> jdstrand: yeah, I didn't see much gain for the click profiles you posted to the list.
<jdstrand> ok
<jjohansen> jdstrand: no, that is a different one, this one does a little more for the click apps
<jdstrand> we got big gains on them in the previously patches though
<jdstrand> ah
<jjohansen> weather applet profile from ubuntu touch    0.618s   105673 bytes  to    0.432s   89300 bytes
<sbeattie> jjohansen: oh? Maybe I'm confused.
<jdstrand> well, good :)
 * sbeattie kicks monday
<sbeattie> anyway, I have some other stuff to catch up on as well.
<jjohansen> not a huge improvement but better than the diff-encode which did almost nothin
<tyhicks> that improvement should be pretty nice on ARM :)
<jdstrand> yeah
<jdstrand> and the emulator
<tyhicks> good point
<sbeattie> Anyway, that's all I have. tyhicks, you're up.
<tyhicks> I'm playing catch up this morning
<tyhicks> I was disconnected nearly the entire break
<tyhicks> I've gotten through most email - the big thread that is coming up next is the kdbus thread
<tyhicks> I've got to tie up some loose ends from before the holiday
<tyhicks> benchmarking ext4 and ecryptfs on ARM is done - I need to figure out how best to do a LUKS-based partition
<jdstrand> nice
<mdeslaur> tyhicks: good luck with the kdbus thread
<jdstrand> so, since kdbus lit up over the holidays, it occurred to me that it might be wise to send up our apparmor patches to the dbus mailing list
<tyhicks> jdstrand: that would be good
<jdstrand> that said, I am a few days our of date on said thread
<tyhicks> I've kept them in an upstreamable form in our dbus package, so it shouldn't be much work for me to get them organized and sent out
<jdstrand> while not completely unsurprised, the tenor of the mailing list discussion is considerably different than what I thought we had with kdbus upstream at plumbers
<tyhicks> we only spoke with gregkh at plumbers and I don't think he's been involved in the thread
<jdstrand> again, I am out of date, but it seems clear we need to continue having these discussions
<tyhicks> agreed
<jdstrand> (and thanks to mdeslaur for responding over the holidays)
<tyhicks> I'm a little blocked on sending out the yama and config patches for Touch because I don't have a device to run the autopilot tests on (and the emulator doesn't seem to work, either)
<jdstrand> tyhicks: what devices do you need?
<tyhicks> jdstrand: umm... any of the better supported devices
<jdstrand> tyhicks: so, you have grouper? it tests ok there?
<tyhicks> jdstrand: I have grouper but that's the old kernel that requires a complete yama backport, which I didn't do
<jdstrand> ah
<jdstrand> so you need manta and mako, correct?
<tyhicks> yes, those would be best
<jdstrand> perhaps you could provide test instructions to jjohansen and chrisccoulson, and they can each do one?
<tyhicks> ok
<tyhicks> I can do that
<jdstrand> I have a mako and am running trusty, but it is my dogfood device so I'd rather not break it :) that said, if it is helpful, you can give me the instructions too
<tyhicks> it will also probably be a bit of an issue for user data encryption
<tyhicks> I'll follow up with the team when I have debs and instructions
<tyhicks> that'll probably keep me busy for this week
<tyhicks> that's it for me
<tyhicks> jjohansen: you're up
<jjohansen> well it looks like I'll be testing for tyhicks this week ;)
<tyhicks> jjohansen: you're the lucky guy with all the hardware :)
<jdstrand> hopefully it will be nearly automatable
<jjohansen> there is some catch up to do from vacation and then its back to apparmor
<mdeslaur> \m/ AppArmor rocks! \m/
<jdstrand> \m/ *rock* \m/
<jjohansen> I've got the rest of the dfa stuff I need to push out so that we can start build some new tests
<ogra_> that gives metal as a service a totally new meaning
<mdeslaur> hehe
<sarnold> good idea!
<jjohansen> haha
<jjohansen> and there is of course the outstanding ipc work
<jjohansen> and coordination with sbeattie on tests there
<jjohansen> and probably more bludgeoning of ones self against a certain thread
<mdeslaur> hehe
<jjohansen> I think thats it from /me sarnold your up
<jdstrand> jjohansen: oh, thank you for also responding to the thread over the holiday
<jdstrand> like I said, I am behind and didn't see that part of the thread
 * jjohansen is only sorry he didn't get to it earlier, but then again Amanda would have made /me even sorrier to have responded earlier
<jdstrand> heh
<jdstrand> we got some responses out-- I think we are ok :)
<sarnold> I'm on community this week, it's been a while since I've checked in on email, so I'll have a fair amount of digging-out to be done this week. but don't let that deter anyone from sending in patches :) I know there's some MIR audits needing attention, some old and some new, and iirc some apparmor patches needing review
<sarnold> I suspect that'll be the week, but it's getting around time to dust off the old objectives and see how those are going.
<sarnold> I think that's it for me, chrisccoulson?
<chrisccoulson> hi :)
<chrisccoulson> so, i left for vacation with a saucy build of oxide on arm which didn't work, and an attempted build for trusty which didn't succeed ;)
<chrisccoulson> i'm fixing those this week
<chrisccoulson> i started work over the holiday to remove the run-time dependency on X, which I need to do to make it work on ubuntu touch in any case
<chrisccoulson> i don't think there's anything else from me
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
<jdstrand> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.
<jdstrand> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/pyfribidi.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/graphite2.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/libjgroups-java.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/sleuthkit.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/mc.html
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
<jdstrand> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
<jdstrand> mdeslaur, sbeattie, tyhicks, jjohansen, sarnold, ChrisCoulson: thanks!
<jdstrand> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Jan  6 17:08:39 2014 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-01-06-16.32.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-01-06-16.32.html
<mdeslaur> thanks jdstrand!
<tyhicks> thanks!
<jjohansen> thanks jdstrand
<sbeattie> jdstrand: thanks!
<sarnold> thanks jdstrand !
 * slangasek waves
<mdeslaur> o/
<infinity> \o
 * stgraber waves
<slangasek> so, ah - who's in charge? :)
<infinity> No idea!
<sabdfl> hello folks
 * slangasek waves to sabdfl 
<sabdfl> evening slangasek
<slangasek> I nominate stgraber to chair, since he's here and knows the ropes :)
<stgraber> well, we haven't had a meeting in ages, so I think we lost track :)
<sabdfl> defrost the book, shall we?
<stgraber> #startmeeting Technical Board meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Jan  6 21:03:45 2014 UTC.  The chair is stgraber. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Technical Board meeting | Current topic:
<stgraber> #topic Action review
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Technical Board meeting | Current topic: Action review
<stgraber> The last action we had was to get a new TB, which we now have, so I'll drop that one from the agenda!
<mdeslaur> \o/
<stgraber> now as for meeting chair, I'd suggest we stick to what we used to do, which is to simply go through https://launchpad.net/~techboard/+members
<sabdfl> it's late in Cape Town, so i'll just say welcome to the new TB, and thanks
<stgraber> so the next meeting chair (20th of January 21 London time) will be infinity
<infinity> I'll be sure to hire a secretary before then.
 * stgraber tries updating the wiki, gives up (taking way too long) and gets back to the meeting
<stgraber> #topic Review our current "provisional" Micro Release Exceptions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Technical Board meeting | Current topic: Review our current "provisional" Micro Release Exceptions
<slangasek> is there a current list?
<stgraber> My vague memory of this is that kees was taking a look at our list of privisional MREs on the wiki and suggesting which should be made permanent exceptions and which should be dropped (because of bad results or because they weren't used)
<stgraber> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates/MicroReleaseExceptions
<slangasek> ok
<slangasek> should we carry this over, since kees isn't here?
<stgraber> yep, I believe it was an ongoing thing anyway as it required input from some SRU team members and also from errors.u.c stats (bdmurray)
<stgraber> #topic Requiring TB members to be Ubuntu core developers [micahg]
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Technical Board meeting | Current topic: Requiring TB members to be Ubuntu core developers [micahg]
<stgraber> micahg_: around by any chance?
<slangasek> I know I saw discussion of this on list
<infinity> This would be slightly less contentious now that it happens to be true.
<slangasek> which makes sense, it was a timely topic before the election, not so much now ;)
 * stgraber quickly reads the ML thread again
<slangasek> infinity: well, I think there was not consensus about this principle
<infinity> slangasek: No, indeed, I can see the argument for people who prefer to recuse themselves to limit upload rights, etc.
<slangasek> one of the points made was that if the developers at large hold someone who's not core-dev in such esteem that they choose to elect them to the TB, that it doesn't make sense to block them with a formal rule
<infinity> Though, the spirit of the thing--if you're not qualified to be a core-dev, you're not qualified to be on the TB--is likely not contentious.
<slangasek> right
<sabdfl> i think it was well intentioned but not a sensible constraint
<sabdfl> we have good checks and balances in the nomination / voting process already
<slangasek> I tend to agree - given that only core-devs were elected this time around (and, IIRC, only core-devs stood for election), this seems like a non-issue and we're better of keeping the status quo
<infinity> I think what we're really looking for here is a veto to prevent accidentally electing incompetents, and Mark already holds that power.
<sabdfl> and i'd prefer to retain the flexibility that offers
<slangasek> s/of/off/
<sabdfl> infinity, as do the voting pool in case I make a bum nomination
<infinity> sabdfl: ;)
<stgraber> status quo seems reasonable to me. I think we should always ensure that the candidate pool is big enough that we don't end up in a situation where the voters have no choice but to elect a non-coredev (or non-developer) but I don't think we need to create policy around that
<sabdfl> i thought i replied to micah and cc'd the TB?
<mdeslaur> I also agree to the status quo
<stgraber> sabdfl: you did
<mdeslaur> yes, https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/technical-board/2013-October/001741.html
<slangasek> sabdfl: yes, you did, but then the TB dissolved and there was no formal decision so it was left on the agenda :)
<kees> whoops, here now.
<slangasek> so, I +1 sabdfl's position
<infinity> +1 here too, the status quo seems to be serving well.
<mdeslaur> +1
<slangasek> (do we want an actual #vote?)
<kees> +1. anyone who ends up on TB and isn't core-dev should probably go about getting it. :)
<mdeslaur> whoops :)
<stgraber> sounds like we have an agreement both from those of the old TB who spoke up on the ML and the current TB to retain status quo, I don't see the need for a formal vote
<slangasek> ok
<infinity> I've considered a similar topic from the POV of archive/sru teams (which I'll bring up another time), but that was more about archive rights, this isn't.
<infinity> (If being on the TB automatically gave you rights to insert packages in the archive, then the core-dev argument would have weight)
<stgraber> infinity: being on the TB gives you the technical ability to grant any ACL you wish including any queue privileges and upload privileges
<infinity> Let's pretend you didn't say that for now.
<mdeslaur> heh
<sabdfl> being on the TB suggests you understand the responsibilities, including ACLs
 * infinity nods.
<slangasek> ok, what else?
<stgraber> yep, and it's the same thing we have with the DMB where the DMB is the admin of ~core-dev but we used to have non-coredev members on the board.
<slangasek> do we want to double back on the MRE question now that kees is here?
<stgraber> kees: hey, so I vaguely remember you were the one looking at those provisional MREs, do you have anything new to share? do we still have some to review at this point? or should that agenda item be dropped for now?
<kees> answer is "it's been very time-consuming to evaluate the history of MREs actually executed", and I've been very slowly working on it.
<kees> mainly I wanted to do it to kick out any MREs that had 0 (or an arbitrarily small number of) SRUs
<sabdfl> do we need a log of those, say a wiki page or set of them, to make such analysis easier in future?
<kees> in theory, it should be possible to extract them from LP, and I have a script started to do it, but it had a lot of corner cases.
<infinity> +publishinghistory for the source packages in question should be log enough.
<sabdfl> i.e. update the process to include a note on that page... ok
<kees> infinity: the trouble was ignoring security updates, etc
<sabdfl> automated would be better, for sure
<slangasek> security updates should be automatically detectable by version number, I guess?
<stgraber> and probably also dealing with renamed sources (we used to have a few X packages with provisional MREs)
<slangasek> (it's only using the MRE if the upstream version number changes)
<kees> slangasek: version number for security updates is the same as that for SRU
<infinity> kees: Not the upstream part.
<kees> slangasek: eh, that hasn't always been true I don't think.
<kees> slangasek: but worth double-checking
<mdeslaur> well, it's likely a rare exception if it's happened before
<stgraber> slangasek: hmm, someone could upload the same new upstream release as say the dev series and use ubuntu0.1 in that case
<stgraber> slangasek: that'd still be a MRE and would have a security-like version number
<slangasek> kees: really?  I would be very concerned with anyone using an MRE as a justification for cherry-picking patches instead of pulling a new upstream release
<stgraber> though indeed, detecting a bump of the upstream version number should work in most cases
<slangasek> stgraber: yes, but the upstream version number in the SRU would be different than the version in the release pocket
<infinity> stgraber: His point was that the upstream version changed in the series in question, you can ignore the Debian revision entirely.
<kees> here's what I put together: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-security/ubuntu-cve-tracker/master/view/head:/scripts/pmre-report
<kees> on top of just the SRU checking was how many errors/bugs were being filed
<kees> (using errors.ubuntu.com)
<kees> but that doesn't seem to catch much server stuff
<mdeslaur> likely none at all :P
<kees> right
<kees> so answering the second question "is it causing more bugs?" has been tricky as well.
<mdeslaur> if something introduced a bug that was serious enough to get fixed, you'd likely see another upload with the same upstream version number
<infinity> Not fool-proof, as that could just be a regular SRU fixing a bug that's existed for years.
<mdeslaur> yes, agreed
<infinity> But a decent starting point to get a computer to do the grunt work.
<kees> now you all feel my pain. :)
<mdeslaur> hehe
<kees> I think for future pMREs, we should set a specific and trivially measureable "this MRE is working" measurement
<slangasek> that makes sense to me; why should the TB spend its time approving a provisional MRE if it's not going to be used
<kees> yeah
<stgraber> sounds reasonable
<slangasek> so we ought to be able to follow up on each pMRE within a month or two of it being originally granted
<infinity> Pretty hard to measure.  Since the success of an MRE SRU is "it fixes more bugs than it introduces" and there may not be bugs for all the upstream issues it fixes.
<infinity> But if the MRE isn't being used at all, sure, that's clearly not a success.
<slangasek> infinity: hmm, I don't consider that the right metric for success
<stgraber> kees: do you know or can easily check whether we have obviously unused pMREs? those would be obvious candidates for revocation at least
<kees> well, it's a measure of failure
<kees> stgraber: I'll make that the new goal :)
<infinity> slangasek: Well, the best possible outcome is "it introduces no new bugs", but I'm not that naive.
<slangasek> I think MREs aren't different from regular SRUs because we delegate the QA to upstream, not because they're held to a different standard of correctness
<slangasek> s/aren't/are/
<infinity> Sure, we hold them to the same level of quality, to a degree.  I'm just not naive enough to belive that thousands of lines of changes in mesa couldn't possibly cause a bug while fixing 10.
<slangasek> so, I think any MRE that introduces new bugs is one that should be examined carefully - though I think I'm speaking now with my SRU team hat, and don't necessarily think the TB should have to worry about micromanaging this
<infinity> (Those bugs should be fixed when found, but they'll be there because humans)
<kees> anyway, I'll get a report of "unused MRE" together. that seems simpler.
<stgraber> yep, that'd be a good start
<stgraber> #action kees to get a list of unused provisional Micro Release Exceptions
<meetingology> ACTION: kees to get a list of unused provisional Micro Release Exceptions
<stgraber> I think we could probably solve a lot of our concerns by giving a strict period of time during which the provisional MRE is valid and contacting the SRU team about that MRE immediately after approval. If it's only provisional for say 3 months, SRU team members should be able to remember it and be able to give us some feedback when comes the time to make it a permanent MRE.
<kees> seems reasonable. means we'll need SRU team involvement in TB meetings
<stgraber> I don't want to offload the whole review process to the SRU team, but realistically they are the ones who see all uploads and get subscribed to all tracking bugs, so if we have a sufficiently short list of pMREs, it shouldn't be too hard for them to spot problems with those.
<slangasek> kees: we sorta handled that with the last election ;P
<kees> slangasek: heh, good point
<kees> yay for power consolidation!
<infinity> WCPGW?
<kees> :)
<slangasek> I'm assuming that's Canadian for "one ring to rule them all"
<infinity> More or less.
<kees> What Could Possibly Go Wrong
<mdeslaur> hehe
<stgraber> anyway, let's move on :)
<stgraber> #topic Scan the mailing list archive for anything we missed (standing item)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Technical Board meeting | Current topic: Scan the mailing list archive for anything we missed (standing item)
<slangasek> the only thread I've spotted that seems like we might need to revisit is this one: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/technical-board/2013-November/001750.html
<slangasek> (SmartScopes)
<slangasek> there's also the currently ongoing discussion of hibernate support, dunno if we should discuss that here or just continue on the list?
<sabdfl> sorry, forced reboot
<kees> slangasek: I say leave hibernation on the list
<slangasek> oh, also this one: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/technical-board/2013-October/001737.html
<stgraber> hmm, I'll have to re-check but I think the libdrm, ... stuff was uploaded (possibly without the MRE)
<infinity> I believe it was.
<kees> yeah, if it was already done, I say give it a pMRE and recheck in 3 mon
<stgraber> yeah, it was and I released some of those to -updates today.
<infinity> I believe I pointed out that it didn't need a standing MRE to do a one-time update.
<kees> as for smartscope, I don't think that has anything at all to do with the Ubuntu TB. That's all Canonical.
<slangasek> infinity, stgraber: right, so it seems RAOF was satisfied that the updates were of sufficiently low risk that he took them with his SRU hat on; no need for an MRE then AFAICS
<slangasek> kees: so, you don't think the TB should have a response to the smartscopes question?
<stgraber> yeah, in the past I've been granting one-time-use MREs for those (granted and removed from the wiki a couple of days later), so I don't think we have to do anything for those now that they were uploaded
<stgraber> (as they are unlikely to get an upstream version bump again)
<slangasek> there is an Ubuntu governance question here, which is "is it ok to have features in Ubuntu that depend on closed server-side software"
<kees> slangasek: I mean there's nothing TB can do but ask for source too.
<infinity> It's not really in the TB's mandate to dictate Canonical software licensing issues.
<infinity> I suppose, yes, we could say the scopes aren't suitable for main because they depend on non-free services.
<kees> +1
<kees> (but everyone knows how I feel)
<mdeslaur> so do we get rid of weather applets, the google search box, the flickr integration, etc too?
<slangasek> I don't think that's what I would be inclined to say, any more than I would say that using google as the default search engine in the browser isn't suitable because it's a non-free service
<slangasek> mdeslaur: right
<stgraber> well, the TB could potentially rule that it's not acceptable for core features of our desktop to depend on a closed server and then let Canonical choose to go without the feature or to make the server open source
<slangasek> stgraber: (or get us vetoed by sabdfl ;)
<stgraber> slangasek: or that :)
<infinity> Sure, I didn't mean we would say that, just that that's an option here.  Unlike dictating licensing, which is not an option.
<slangasek> anyway, I think it would be better for us to answer that clearly rather than ignoring the question
<slangasek> but not in the next 7 minutes
<stgraber> so is that something we should deal with on the list or does someone want to bring it up as an agenda item for the next meeting?
<slangasek> I'd say list for now
<stgraber> sounds good to me
<infinity> I don't think there's anything inherently wrong about shipping clients for non-free services (we have tons of them), but it does seem a bit wrong to have them as part of the core desktop experience.
<stgraber> ok, moving on then
<stgraber> #topic Check up on community bugs (standing item)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Technical Board meeting | Current topic: Check up on community bugs (standing item)
<stgraber> "
<stgraber> There are currently no open bugs.
<stgraber> "
<infinity> \o/
<stgraber> #topic Select a chair for the next meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Technical Board meeting | Current topic: Select a chair for the next meeting
<stgraber> that'll be infinity (and I've updated the agenda to hopefully make it clear as to how we choose the chair)
<stgraber> #topic AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Technical Board meeting | Current topic: AOB
<stgraber> maybe just one quick questions for the new members, does the current meeting time work for everyone? every two weeks on Monday at 21 London time (so we move with UK DST)
<infinity> Works well enough for me.
<infinity> Monday is my "get no useful work done" day.
<slangasek> it actually overlaps with a call for infinity and me
<slangasek> which he seems to be casually trying to get out of ;)
<infinity> Well, there's that call, yes.  But that won't last forever.
<mdeslaur> wfm
<infinity> We could wiggle the TB meeting 30m later for a few months, if no one (nor the Fridge) objected.
<stgraber> I suspect pitti would object as the current meeting time is already quite late for him
<mdeslaur> hrm
<slangasek> yeah, that makes it later for both sabdfl and pitti
<infinity> We had no problems forcing our previous call to 30m, I'm sure we can keep juggling those for a while until it stops.
<sabdfl> i am not a regular attendee so  don't block on me if that suits you better
<slangasek> today's call naturally ended 30m early with no prompting :)
<slangasek> anyway, scheduling is hard
<slangasek> so we can just keep the meeting where it is, with the knowledge that infinity and I may be late from time to time for the next couple of months
<infinity> But fashionably so.
<stgraber> sounds good. We still have quorum without you two and while we shouldn't depend on it, I suspect you're both capable of multi-tasking a bit if needed :)
<mdeslaur> sounds good to me
<stgraber> and with that settled
<stgraber> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Jan  6 22:02:50 2014 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-01-06-21.03.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-01-06-21.03.html
<slangasek> stgraber: thanks for chairing
<infinity> Ta.
<stgraber> next meeting will be on the 20th at 21:00 UTC with infinity chairing (or kees if infinity doesn't make it on time)
<kees> thanks!
<infinity> Way to motivate me to be late.
<mdeslaur> thanks!
<kees> heh
#ubuntu-meeting 2014-01-07
<jamespage> o/
<arosales> o/
<rharper> o/
<utlemming_> o/
<jamespage> roaksoax, ping ?
<smoser> o/
<rcj> o/
<smoser> bah.
<smoser> well, i say we get started, i'll just chair.
<smoser> #startmeeting ubuntu-server-team
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Jan  7 16:05:08 2014 UTC.  The chair is smoser. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:
<smoser> #topic Review ACTION points from previous meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<smoser>     ACTION: gaughen or jamespage or smoser: get all server blueprints represented at /topic-t-servercloud-overview.html
<jamespage> smoser, done
<smoser> yeah. good.
<smoser> #link http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-t/group/topic-t-servercloud-overview.html
<smoser> #topic Trusty Development
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Trusty Development
<smoser> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TrustyTahr/ReleaseSchedule
<smoser> alpha2 is Jan 23. I suspect we'll try to do cloud images for that also.
<smoser> we did them for alpha1.
<smoser> please do keep up on your blueprints and be aware that time is moving forward.
<utlemming_> smoser: I was planning on alpha2 images
<smoser> #subtopic Release Bugs
 * utlemming_ votes for alpha 2 images
<smoser> yeah. we'll have them.
<smoser> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-t-tracking-bug-tasks.html#server
<smoser> hm... we do have a fair amount of unassigned bugs there (16)
<smoser> i'm not really interested in walking through all of them.
<smoser> please take alook and see if you can do anything there.
<smoser> #subtopic Blueprints
<smoser> #link http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-t/group/topic-t-servercloud-overview.html
 * smoser is happy that he's not the worst of the "status by assignee". 
<smoser> please take a look there and try to get some of your items accomplished. especially those that were tagged for 2013 or 2014.1
<smoser> #topic Server & Cloud Bugs (caribou)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Server & Cloud Bugs (caribou)
<smoser> caribou, here ?
<caribou> smoser: I'm here
<caribou> smoser: with nothing specific on my end, thanks
<smoser> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (psivaa)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (psivaa)
<psivaa> no updates from us
<smoser> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
<smb> No updates. Just returned. Oh maybe for zul
<smb> there will be a few things for libvirt
<smoser> i'll say that wrt kernel team updates, sforshee is looking for some server related work. if you do have something, please suggest it to smoser or jamespage and/or sforshee.
<smb> but still in testing right now
<smb> Oh yeah, sorry
<smoser> moving on, smb ?
<smoser> er... should i move on.
<smb> wfm :)
<smoser> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions regarding Ubuntu ARM Server (rbasak)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions regarding Ubuntu ARM Server (rbasak)
<rbasak> No updates from me. Any questions?
<smoser> one notable thing in the "arm server" world http://gigaom.com/2013/12/19/arm-server-pioneer-calxeda-plans-restructuring-after-running-out-of-cash/
<smoser> #topic Ubuntu Server Team Events
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Ubuntu Server Team Events
<smoser> anything coming up ?
<smoser> crickets
<smoser> moving on
<smoser> #topic Open Discussion
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Open Discussion
<smoser> any one have anything here?
<smoser> #topic Announce next meeting date and time
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Announce next meeting date and time
<smoser> $ echo "next meeting is in: $(($(date +%s --utc --date="next tuesday 16:00") - $(date +%s))) seconds"
<smoser> next meeting is in: 603726 seconds
<smoser> oops.
<smoser> Tue Jan 14 21:00:00 UTC 2014
<smoser> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Jan  7 16:18:57 2014 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-01-07-16.05.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-01-07-16.05.html
<jsalisbury> #startmeeting
<jsalisbury> ##
<jsalisbury> ## This is the Ubuntu Kernel Team weekly status meeting.
<jsalisbury> ##
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Jan  7 17:00:07 2014 UTC.  The chair is jsalisbury. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Trusty
<jsalisbury> # Meeting Etiquette
<jsalisbury> #
<jsalisbury> # NOTE: '..' indicates that you are finished with your input.
<jsalisbury> #       'o/' indicates you have something to add (please wait until you are recognized)
<jsalisbury> Roll Call for Ubuntu Kernel Weekly Status Meeting
<cking> o/
<kamal> o/
<henrix> o/
<ogasawara> o/
<smb> o/
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] ARM Status (ppisati)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: ARM Status (ppisati)
<ppisati> nothing new to report this week
<ppisati> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
<jsalisbury> Release metrics and incoming bug data can be reviewed at the following link:
<jsalisbury> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/kt-meeting.txt
<jsalisbury> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Milestone Targeted Work Items (ogasawara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Milestone Targeted Work Items (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> [LINK] https://launchpad.net/~canonical-kernel-distro-team/+upcomingwork
<ogasawara> [LINK] http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-t/canonical-kernel-distro-team.html
<ogasawara> || apw       || core-1311-kernel                || 5 work items ||
<ogasawara> ||           || core-1311-cross-compilation     || 2 work items ||
<ogasawara> ||           || core-1311-hwe-plans             || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> || bjf       || core-1311-dmraid2mdadm          || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> || cking     || core-1311-kernel                || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> || ogasawara || core-1311-kernel                || 4 work items ||
<ogasawara> ||           || client-1311-xorg-general        || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> || sforshee  || servercloud-1311-cloud-images   || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> || smb       || core-1311-dmraid2mdadm          || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> ||           || servercloud-1311-openstack-virt || 6 work items ||
<ogasawara> || rtg       || core-1311-kernel                || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Trusty Development Kernel (ogasawara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Trusty Development Kernel (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> We've finished cleaning up some DKMS packages for Trusty and are
<ogasawara> preparing for our first v3.13 based kernel upload to the archive.
<ogasawara> This is specifically based on the latest v3.13-rc7 upstream kernel.
<ogasawara> I would also like to remind everyone that the 12.04.4 point release is
<ogasawara> now taking place on Thurs Feb 6.  The kernel is currently frozen for
<ogasawara> 12.04.4 and we do not anticipate any respins at this time.
<ogasawara> -----
<ogasawara> Important upcoming dates:
<ogasawara> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TrustyTahr/ReleaseSchedule
<ogasawara> Thurs Jan 23 - Alpha 2 (~2 weeks away)
<ogasawara> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PrecisePangolin/ReleaseSchedule
<ogasawara> Thurs Feb 6 - 12.04.4 Final Release (~4 weeks away)
<ogasawara> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: CVE's
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: CVE's
<jsalisbury> The current CVE status can be reviewed at the following link:
<jsalisbury> http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/cve/pkg/ALL-linux.html
<jsalisbury> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Saucy/Raring/Quantal/Precise/Lucid (bjf/henrix/sconklin)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Saucy/Raring/Quantal/Precise/Lucid (bjf/henrix/sconklin)
<jsalisbury> Nothing new to report this week.
<jsalisbury> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
<jsalisbury> Thanks everyone
<jsalisbury> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Jan  7 17:05:42 2014 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-01-07-17.00.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-01-07-17.00.html
<apw> jsalisbury, thanks
<kamal> thanks jsalisbury
#ubuntu-meeting 2014-01-09
 * slangasek waves
<jodh> o/
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Jan  9 16:01:47 2014 UTC.  The chair is slangasek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Lightning round
<slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e barry doko stgraber jodh bdmurray slangasek cjwatson xnox stokachu)
<slangasek> cjwatson stokachu barry bdmurray stgraber doko slangasek jodh xnox
<cjwatson> oh look
<cjwatson> It's been a "catch up after new year" week
<xnox> bah =) /me missed the chat
<cjwatson> Miscellaneous:
<xnox> *sorry*
<cjwatson>  - Bits and pieces of arm64/ppc64el porting (wcslib, mozjs17, libgksu, lcms, telepathy-logger, pvm, umockdev
<cjwatson>  - Various other build failure fixes (mutter, gnome-shell, obexd, renpy
<cjwatson>  - Caught up a bit on the trusty-proposed backlog with a bunch of rebuilds and such.
<cjwatson>  - base-passwd 3.5.30, with more secure defaults for shells of various global static users.  Hoovered up fallout in a dozen or so packages (one of which broke phone tests, oops).
<cjwatson> 12.04.4 preparation:
<cjwatson>  - Reviewed a bunch of enablement uploads.
<cjwatson>  - Prepared debian-installer for lts-saucy enablement tree.
<cjwatson> Started on libclick.
<cjwatson> ..
<cjwatson> Oh and sorry to anyone upset by the missing close parens there.  Here: ) )
<slangasek> :)
<slangasek> stokachu: around?  (it's a new year, so maybe? :)
<barry> cjwatson: there's an emacs mode for that
<stokachu> Nothing from me this week
<slangasek> stokachu: ok, cool :)
<stokachu> as far as bugs go, working on getting sosreport 3.1 relead
<stokachu> done
<barry> short week due to winter break.  was mostly off-line, so plenty of catching up this week.
<barry> system-image: LP: #1259326 (triaged, discussed)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1259326 in system-image (Ubuntu) "system-update panel not blocking screen lock/blank while downloading" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1259326
<barry> autopilot: LP: #1266574. branches ready for address-book-app, camera-app, cordova-ubuntu in progress.  discussions with #ubuntu-autopilot folks
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1266574 in autopilot (Ubuntu) "autopilot_tracepoint.c is not Python 3 compatible" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1266574
<barry> ubuntu/debian: python-apt 0.9.1ubuntu1 (for dep8 fix).  window-mocker python3/pybuild support for cgoldberg.
<barry> done
<bdmurray> queried errors database to see if bug 1024590 is fixed in saucy
<bdmurray> tested unattended-upgrade bug 1265729
<bdmurray> uploaded a fix for bug 1237119
<bdmurray> bug triage of bug 1264887
<ubottu> bug 1024590 in aptdaemon (Ubuntu) "update-manager crashed with AttributeError in _on_download_changed(): 'NoneType' object has no attribute 'get_value'" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1024590
<ubottu> bug 1265729 in unattended-upgrades (Ubuntu) "unattended-upgrade might enter an infinite loop if an upgradable package is on hold" [Undecided,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1265729
<ubottu> bug 1237119 in gnome-control-center (Ubuntu) "ERROR: hook /usr/share/apport/package-hooks/source_gnome-control-center.py crashed: TypeError: add_info() takes 1 positional argument but 2 were given" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1237119
<ubottu> bug 1264887 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu Trusty) "After upgrade 12.04 -> 14.04 there was no display manager (kdm or lightdm)" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1264887
<bdmurray> uploaded whoopsie-preferences with a change for location of apport/autoreport (bug 1239811)
<ubottu> bug 1239811 in whoopsie-preferences (Ubuntu Trusty) "whoopsie-preferences crashed with SIGSEGV in _IO_new_fclose()" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1239811
<bdmurray> uploaded update-notifier, apport, lxc-android-config with a change for location of apport/autoreport
<bdmurray> updated bug bot to handle not erased media ubiquity install failures
<bdmurray> updated bug bot to recommend people try 12.04.3 not 12.04.[12]
<bdmurray> modified phased-updater not to keep setting stopped updates to 0%
<bdmurray> subscribed teams to packages
<bdmurray> trying to setup an instance of errors in canonistack to work on retracer issue
<bdmurray> worked with canonical support to get my core limit increased for deploying the error tracker in canonistack
<cjwatson> barry: there's an emacs mode for everything
<bdmurray> testing autoreporting of crashes and whoopsie on trusty (bug 1245524)
<ubottu> bug 1245524 in whoopsie (Ubuntu) "whoopsie fails to notice/process .upload files on trusty" [Critical,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1245524
<bdmurray> â done
<stokachu> oh can someone remove sponsors team from bug 1121874?
<ubottu> bug 1121874 in mysql-5.5 (Ubuntu Saucy) "MySQL launch fails silently if < 4MB of disk space is available" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1121874
<stokachu> now that arges can sponsor packages he just can't remove the team from subscribers list
<barry> cjwatson: true! there's even one for vi users :)
<stgraber>  - cgmanager:
<stgraber>    - Followed the progress made by jodh and hallyn, discussed and reviewed initial packaging
<stgraber>  - LXC:
<stgraber>    - Preparing for rc1 next week (ton of code reviews and a few fixes)
<stgraber>    - Wrote a bit about LXC: https://www.stgraber.org/2013/12/20/lxc-1-0-blog-post-series/
<stgraber>    - Tested and prepared systemd upload to turn on all cgroup controllers in logind
<stgraber>    - Follow up on PAM change to get unprivileged containers working properly
<stgraber>    - Branch to make apport work with LXC (some extra changes needed)
<cjwatson> stokachu: I guess somebody did it, doesn't seem to be subscribed now
<slangasek> barry: what kinds of discussions have you been having on #ubuntu-autopilot?  are they excited about the python3 move? :)
<stgraber>  - Ubuntu touch
<stgraber>    - Images now have discard enabled by default
<stgraber>    - Fixed a few bugs in my experimental port/private-server system-image branch, working on tests now. Test server at https://phablet.stgraber.org
<stgraber>  - Other
<stgraber>    - SRU/New reviews
<stgraber>    - A few merges
<stgraber> (DONE)
<stokachu> cjwatson: ah ok must've just happened lol, thanks for checking
<barry> slangasek: i'm happy to discuss a few things after the lightening round
<slangasek> barry: ack
<doko> - two full days of merges, not yet finished with main, and didn't look yet at universe. merges in general seem to be behind this cycle
<doko> - start packaging GCC 4.9, including four new runtime libs
<doko> - gcc-4.8/arm64: trying to reproduce a testcase for 1263576
<doko> - finishing tcl/tk updates
<doko> - made python3.4 a supported python3 version. fixed most packages
<doko>   build-depending on python3-all-dev.
<doko> - started a first test rebuild, currently for main on all archs.
<doko>   universe will follow later this week.
<doko> - looked at ruby-ffi on arm64 and ppc64el. not much progress
<doko> - finished the glew transition
<doko> - uploaded ppc64le cross toolchain to trusty
<doko> - update of python interpreters
<doko> - MIR processing, component mismatches, ...
<doko> (done)
<slangasek> doko: gcc 4.9> and that's not landing in the archive this cycle, right?
<doko> slangasek, depends ... =)
<slangasek> doko: on what?
<slangasek>  * post-holiday email wrangling
<slangasek>  * learning the ropes on the TB (congrats to everyone else who was elected, thanks to everyone else who stood)
<slangasek>  * sprint prep
<slangasek>  * continuing to work on filling our open position on the team
<slangasek>  * Debian upstart/systemd discussions
<slangasek>  * monitoring upstream kdbus discussions
<slangasek>  * worked with stgraber to land pam_loginuid userns support upstream
<slangasek>  * ongoing ppc64el discussions
<slangasek> (done)
<jodh> * core-1311-upstart-roadmap:
<jodh>   - cgroup support:
<jodh>     - Upstart can now run a job in a cgroup using the cgmanager.
<jodh>       Continuing to work with stgraber + hallyn on cgmanager design and
<jodh>       implementation.
<jodh>   - async spawning: Have a prototype branch that will boot a system and
<jodh>     a Session Init, handling child comms asynchronously. Needs
<jodh>     polishing and also necessitates reworking some of the existing
<jodh>     tests and writing additional state-machine checking tests.
<doko> if gccgo-4.9 looks better than -4.8
<jodh>     Currently extending the serialisation format to handle resuming the
<jodh>     async operations post re-exec.
<jodh> â£
<doko> no, not as the default
<xnox> * Emulator / Autopilot:
<xnox>   - working on automating autopilot execution in the emulator
<xnox>   - finding / identifying / filing bugs about issues with test
<xnox>     failures, which are regressions over mako.
<xnox>   - solving scalability of testing with juju charm development to
<xnox>     reliably run all tests quickly.
<xnox>   - see ubuntu-phone mailing list post + bugs tagged "jemjem"
<xnox> * installer:
<xnox>   - worked on improving support for Qemu/OVMF targets
<xnox> * over christmas time:
<xnox>   - helped with icu and glew transitions, ppc64el fixes.
<slangasek> doko: would we be able to use gccgo-4.9 with libgcc from 4.8, or does this require updating libgcc?  I thought you were opposed to pulling in 4.9 for the runtime libs
<xnox> * I'm away on holidays from 11th to 19th of January
<xnox> ..
<barry> xnox: we should chat about autopilot+emulator some time :)
<doko> slangasek, I'm opposed to overwrite libstdc++6
<doko> and as I said, I just started the packaging this week ...
<xnox> barry: well today is best as i'll be available most of the evening. tomorrow, i'll be finishing sharp at EOD.
<slangasek> doko: ack
<barry> xnox: ack
<slangasek> any more questions/comments on status?
<slangasek> barry: should we talk about autopilot?
<barry> slangasek: sure
<slangasek> [TOPIC] autopilot & python3
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: autopilot & python3
<barry> we have buy-in that autopilot tests in packages should be py3, which is great because we'll be able to ditch py2 on touch
<barry> some disagreement on whether there should be a "flag day" or switch things over package by package
<barry> otoh, if we go by xnox's list in emulator branch, there's only 11 packages that need porting, so i think it's silly not to just flag day it
<slangasek> yes; but all the plans for switching things over package-by-package had huge overhead on the packaging side
 * slangasek nods
<barry> slangasek: yeah, i thought you'd back me up on that :)
<barry> i've already ported address-book-app and camera-app and am working on cordova-ubuntu.  really, porting the actual packages is not difficult
<barry> one thing i'm unsure of atm is whether the click package tests in xnox's branch use autopilot.  i think not, but not sure atm
<xnox> barry: oh, i see. Yeah, I was confused why all tests seem to run in python2 mode, when they are mostly 1.4 autopilot based and should be python3 capable.
<xnox> barry: all of them use autopilot, after a huge amount of wrapper scripts =)
<barry> right, we have /usr/bin/autopilot (py2) and autopilot-py3 as test runners
<barry> xnox: okay, so the click package tests will need porting too then.  that adds to the mix
<barry> other open questions: whether to have one big tracking bug with bugtasks, or a bug per package
<xnox> barry: i can wedge /usr/bin/autopilot to be /usr/bin/autopilot-py3 & give you logs of how much things fail, would you be interested in that?
<barry> and the really difficult one: testing :(
<slangasek> testing> that's why we have charms :)
<slangasek> xnox: what kind of times are you getting out of running all the testsuites, now?
<barry> xnox: what i'd like to talk about later is fiddling with your emulator scripts to switch between py2 and py3, and using local packages.  but then there's the cross-building issue
<xnox> barry: one big bug with bugtasks, doesn't scale that well. Having one bug per project/package with a common tag works better. As one can request launchpad to list them all "e.g. tag jemjem from all projects"
<barry> xnox: that's probably how we'll go
<xnox> slangasek: some instances get stuck, so i need to add watchdog. Last run I did was about 3h across all non-failing projects.
<barry> since i suspect package maintainers will prefer that
<xnox> barry: is python3 autopilot seeded on the images yet?
<slangasek> xnox: not bad, not bad...  seems like a few more iterations, and we should be able to get solid test results for the autopilot transition
<barry> right now the easiest thing seems to be: install the amd64 packages and run the tests locally.  a few py2 tests will fail (e.g. i have no camera) but oh well.  then, build and install the amd64 py3 ported package locally and run with autopilot-py3.  icky, but has the advantage of actually working :)
<barry> xnox: python3-autopilot gives you /usr/bin/autopilot-py3
<barry> autopiloters seem to do all testing on devices, including package builds.  but i think that's almost unnecessarily slow for porting purposes
<doko> barry, do you test with 3.4 too? ;-p
<xnox> barry: and autopilot-touch is not a python based? it has python-autopilot & python-evdev depends.
<barry> doko: ha ha ha!
<slangasek> barry: +1 for anything that speeds up the development cycle by leveraging native hardware :)
<barry> xnox: i *think* those are just ap's own tests, which can be run against py2 and py3 using tox in their trunk branch
<xnox> cool.
<barry> slangasek: yeah, i think that'll at least get us 99% of the way there
<barry> at least to the point of mp's
<barry> so, aside from porting, we'll have to get ci to switch over to autopilot-py3.  that's a whole 'nuther discussion
<barry> (some of which has been discussed before)
<barry> anyway, i think that's about it.  xnox's emulator is awesome btw, and if we can leverage it for testing as described above, i think that would give us extra confidence
<barry> eot
<slangasek> yeah, there's no way we can propose having a py3 flag day for autopilot /without/ testing in emulation... we need to get the py3 autopilot test failures down to where they match the existing py2 tests, and that requires testing on arm
<slangasek> so next steps: 1) iterate through the test suites on amd64, fixing any obvious py2/3 issues; 2) generate reports for py2 vs. py3 autopilot testing in the cloud; 3) lather, rinse, repeat; 4) flag day when we hit parity?
<barry> agreed.  i think the phablet-tools test runner can be pointed to local packages and/or ppas, so one of the steps in this process should be uploading to a ppa all the ported tests, twiddling the runner to use py3, and running them on actual devices and/or the emulator
<barry> slangasek: yes
<slangasek> ppas> only relevant for the .debs, I guess, not the click packages
<barry> right
<slangasek> barry: ok - sounds like a plan.  What do you think the timeline looks like?  I guess if you haven't looked at the test suites yet for any of the click packages, it's hard to project?
<barry> slangasek: right.  but i'm mildly confident i can finish the non-click porting this week or early next week
<slangasek> ok
<slangasek> barry: thanks!
<barry> sure thing!
<slangasek> anything else for today?
<slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<slangasek> beuller
<slangasek> nothing? :)
<slangasek> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Jan  9 16:36:52 2014 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-01-09-16.01.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-01-09-16.01.html
<slangasek> ok, thanks all!
<jodh> thanks!
<barry> thanks!
<stgraber> thanks!
#ubuntu-meeting 2014-01-10
<sharif> hii
#ubuntu-meeting 2014-01-12
<sefsef> end
<sefsef> exit
#ubuntu-meeting 2015-01-05
<jdstrand> hi!
<mdeslaur> \o
<jdstrand> happy new year :)
<jdstrand> #startmeeting
<jdstrand> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<jdstrand> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Jan  5 17:02:24 2015 UTC.  The chair is jdstrand. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<jdstrand> actually, I skipped something
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Announcements
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Announcements
<jdstrand> Thomas Ward (teward) provided an update for utopic for wireshark (LP: #1397091)  Your work is very much appreciated and will keep Ubuntu users secure. Great job! :)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1397091 in wireshark (Ubuntu Trusty) "[Security] Update Wireshark in Precise, Trusty, and Utopic to include relevant security patches." [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1397091
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<jdstrand> I'll go first
<jdstrand> I'm in the happy place this week
<jdstrand> I'm catching up on a few things
<jdstrand> I have several snappy tasks to attend to this week, the first being some seccomp investigations
<jdstrand> I'm going to be pulling people in for discussions, reviews, etc over the coming few weeks to make sure everything is sound and make sense
<jdstrand> I've got two pending issues I'm working on: mercurial and glance. mercurial is community supported though, but if people had tips for getting the trusty testsuite to pass (a no change rebuild fails in tghave), feel free to contact me in #ubuntu-hardened
<jdstrand> I'll figure it out eventually, but it'll go out faster if I get help from the community
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: you're up
<mdeslaur> I'm on triage this week
<mdeslaur> and tomorrow I'm on patch piloting
<mdeslaur> We have a backlog of about 50 packages that need security updates, so I'll be working on that
<mdeslaur> that's it from me, sbeattie, you're up
<sbeattie> I've got a variety of things on my plate this week:
<sbeattie> I need to get back to the compiler pie-on-amd64 stuff: I've discovered it breaks dkms compilation for some reason
<sbeattie> I'll try to pick up one or two of the outstanding updates
<sbeattie> I was also working on updating vivid's apparmor to the upstream 2.9.1 release, and discovered that lp: #1407437 is an upstream issue
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1407437 in apparmor (Ubuntu) "aa-enforce fails with ImportError: No module named rule.capability" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1407437
<sbeattie> That's pretty much it for me.
<sbeattie> tyhicks is not here, so sarnold?
<sarnold> I'm on community this week
<sarnold> I'll be catching up on two weeks of unread email and probably helping out with updates
<sarnold> I believe there's also a huge backlog of apparmor patches, but that'll probably only be short-and-easy patches reviewed initially
<sarnold> that's it for me, chrisccoulson?
<chrisccoulson> This week, I need to fix bug 1398174
<ubottu> bug 1398174 in firefox (Ubuntu) "Move search provider defaults from Ubufox to Firefox" [Critical,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1398174
<chrisccoulson> I'll also be working on bug 1337506, and working through Oxide reviews
<ubottu> bug 1337506 in Oxide "FATAL:texture_manager.cc(76)] Check failed: texture_count_ == 0u (1 vs. 0)" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1337506
<chrisccoulson> And I finally managed to land http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~oxide-developers/oxide/oxide.trunk/revision/901 at the weekend :)
<chrisccoulson> that's me done
<jdstrand> chrisccoulson: for 1337506, is that an oxide crasher?
<chrisccoulson> It is
<jdstrand> chrisccoulson: do you have a feel for how often it happens? I occasionally see webbrowser-app crash and was curious
<chrisccoulson> It's only a shutdown crash, but it's a symptom of a bigger issue
<jdstrand> re LocationBarController API> cool! :)
<jdstrand> chrisccoulson: ack
<jdstrand> also, what prompted the fix for 1398174?
<chrisccoulson> This is related to the change in default search engine
<jdstrand> chrisccoulson: I guess I was really asking: is ubufox going away and if so, why?
<chrisccoulson> It's not going away, but it won't define the default search engines anymore
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
<jdstrand> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.
<jdstrand> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/oath-toolkit.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/gcc-4.9-ppc64el-cross.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/merkaartor.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/libplack-perl.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/texmacs.html
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
<jdstrand> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
<teward> *raises hand*
<jdstrand> teward: hi, go ahead
<teward> jdstrand: thanks for the acknowledge on the wireshark updates - on that note, work has stalled on the other versions, the community is welcome to start picking up on that.
<teward> new upload to Vivid for nginx has effectively mitigated POODLE out of the box - this was an issue on my radar for some time and has effectively been mititgated as of last week out of the box thanks to Debian changes.
<teward> /done
<jdstrand> re nginx> oh, neat :)
<teward> jdstrand: yeah, i thought so, it's handled at the nginx.conf (nginx-instance-wide) level instead of at the site config level, which is why i say it effectively mitigates POODLE
<teward> definitely a plus :)
<teward> since nginx-core is in main, i thought it relevant to mention.  all done here.
<jdstrand> mdeslaur, sbeattie, sarnold, chrisccoulson, teward: thanks
<jdstrand> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Jan  5 17:30:42 2015 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2015/ubuntu-meeting.2015-01-05-17.02.moin.txt
<mdeslaur> thanks jdstrand!
<sbeattie> jdstrand: thanks!
<sarnold> thanks jdstrand!
#ubuntu-meeting 2015-01-06
<kickinz1> o/
<hallyn> o/
<kickinz1> #startmeeting ubuntu-server-team
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Jan  6 16:00:09 2015 UTC.  The chair is kickinz1. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:
<kickinz1> #topic Review ACTION points from previous meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<coreycb> o/
<matsubara> o/
<kickinz1> seems there is an action point, seems done right?
<kickinz1> SO I go to Vivid dev?
<coreycb> kickinz1, you may want to paste the action point.  I'm not seeing logs from the last meeting.
<kickinz1> ok
<kickinz1> Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<kickinz1> matsubara to chase someone that can update release bugs report: http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-v-tracking-bug-tasks.html#ubuntu-server
<kickinz1> I filed https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-qa-website/+bug/1398443 for this, which has been fixed by Brian Murray and the report now works -- 2014-12-02 matsubara
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1398443 in Ubuntu QA Website "rls-v-tracking missing for Vivid" [Undecided,Fix released]
<arges> o/
<gaughen> o/
<matsubara> kickinz1, that's been sorted out in the previous meeting
<kickinz1> sorry..
<kickinz1> #topic Vivid Development
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Vivid Development
<hallyn> kickinz1: not your fault, last person should have updated it.  please do so this time
<kickinz1> ok I'll  do
<hallyn> thanks :)
<kickinz1> So anything related to vivid?
<hallyn> I need to talk to stgraber but it loks like we're going to track lxd through github milestones/issues rather than blueprint
<kickinz1> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/VividVervet/ReleaseSchedule
<kickinz1> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/VividVervet/ReleaseSchedule
<coreycb> that tag may be broken, we can look at the url on our own
<gaughen> sorry kickinz1 I think that was me that should have updated the action, and I actually thought I did
<gaughen> our next big date for the release is feature freeze - Feb 19
<coreycb> or maybe link isn't supposed to do anything (ignore me)
<kickinz1> the #link is in the command list...
<kickinz1> #subtopic Release Bugs
<kickinz1> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-v-tracking-bug-tasks.html#ubuntu-server
<kickinz1> #link http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-v-tracking-bug-tasks.html#ubuntu-server
<gaughen> maybe the meeting tool doesn't like a french '#' kickinz1 ;-)
<gaughen> coreycb, kickinz1 is that link working for you? I'm getting a blank page
<coreycb> it's dead for me
<gaughen> anyhow, I'm not aware of any major show stoppers right now, so we can move on to blueprints
<kickinz1> So link doesn't work, replacing reqorts by reports doesn't seem do to anything, I'll look into ot after
<gaughen> although I would say one thing on my mind is the move to systemd this cycle
<gaughen> we need to carve out some time to make sure the services that are server image specific are  happy
<gaughen> and we need to do that this month
<gaughen> anyhow, kickinz1 you can move us along with your fancy french #s ;-)
<kickinz1> ok
<kickinz1> #subtopic Blueprints
<kickinz1> #link http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-v/group/topic-v-server.html
<gaughen> kickinz1, I've been trying to make sure our blueprints are in a good state. as usual they need love. But I will continue to work that.
<gaughen> and as hallyn mentioned the plan will be to track lxd not in blueprints but on github
<kickinz1> ok
<gaughen> smoser, we need to get a cloud-init blueprint in shape for the python3 rebase
<gaughen> anyhow, that is all kickinz1
<smoser> gaughen, agreed.
<kickinz1> So going to SErver and Cloud
<kickinz1> #topic Server & Cloud Bugs (caribou)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Server & Cloud Bugs (caribou)
<gaughen> it worked kickinz1!
<caribou> kickinz1: nothing particular here
<kickinz1> ok
<kickinz1> thanks caribou
<kickinz1> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (psivaa)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (psivaa)
<kickinz1> psivaa_ ?
<kickinz1> So next
<kickinz1> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee, arges)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee, arges)
<arges> the kernel is perfect and no bugs exist. : )
<kickinz1> :)
<beisner> kickinz1, plz add action item for me:   establish new qa-team point of contact for server team
<arges> feel free to let us know of any issues as usual
<psivaa_> kickinz1: sorry i am no longer in the QA team. besigner was inthe process of finding a QA rep
<kickinz1> ok thanks psivaa_
<kickinz1> thanks arges
<kickinz1> #topic Ubuntu Server Team Events
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Ubuntu Server Team Events
<kickinz1> So any Ubuntu Server Team Events coming soon?
<gaughen> well jamespage's birthday is coming up
<gaughen> for real this time
<kickinz1> A new team member with the nickname tmoser ?
<gaughen> kickinz1, yes!
<gaughen> kickinz1, but otherwise I'm not aware of any upcoming events.
<kickinz1> ok I move on
<kickinz1> #topic Open Discussion
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Open Discussion
<kickinz1> Anyone?
<kickinz1> #topic Announce next meeting date and time
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Announce next meeting date and time
<kickinz1> So next meeting is 13 jan 2015
<kickinz1> next chair is smoser
<kickinz1> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Jan  6 16:25:19 2015 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2015/ubuntu-meeting.2015-01-06-16.00.moin.txt
<kickinz1> thanks all, and sorry foir the lag...
<coreycb> thanks kickinz1!
<smoser> next share surely isn't me.
<smoser> i must didn't do my updating. :-(
<beisner> thanks kickinz1 !
<gaughen> smoser, the rotation seems to go very very fast
<gaughen> kickinz1, thanks!
<kickinz1> I think he replaces me last time, so maybe it is too fast.
<jsalisbury> #startmeeting
<jsalisbury> ##
<jsalisbury> ## This is the Ubuntu Kernel Team weekly status meeting.
<jsalisbury> ##
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Jan  6 17:00:22 2015 UTC.  The chair is jsalisbury. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Vivid
<jsalisbury> # Meeting Etiquette
<jsalisbury> #
<jsalisbury> # NOTE: '..' indicates that you are finished with your input.
<jsalisbury> #       'o/' indicates you have something to add (please wait until you are recognized)
<jsalisbury> Roll Call for Ubuntu Kernel Weekly Status Meeting
<cking> o/  2015 already
<bjf> o/
<henrix> o/
<arges> o/
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
<jsalisbury> Release metrics and incoming bug data can be reviewed at the following link:
<jsalisbury> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/kt-meeting.txt
<jsalisbury> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Vivid Development Kernel (ogasawara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Vivid Development Kernel (ogasawara)
<jsalisbury> Both the master and master-next branches of our Vivid kernel have been
<jsalisbury> rebased to the v3.18.1 upstream stable kernel.  We have also uploaded
<jsalisbury> our first 3.18 based kernel to the archive (3.18.0-8.9).  Please test and let us
<jsalisbury> know your results.  We are also starting to track the v3.19 kernel on
<jsalisbury> our unstable branch.
<jsalisbury> -----
<jsalisbury> Important upcoming dates:
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/VividVervet/ReleaseSchedule
<jsalisbury> Fri Jan 9 - 14.04.2 Kernel Freeze (~3 days away)
<jsalisbury> Thurs Jan 22 - Vivid Alpha 2 (~2 weeks away)
<jsalisbury> Thurs Feb 5 - 14.04.2 Point Release (~4 weeks away)
<jsalisbury> Thurs Feb 26 - Beta 1 Freeze (~7 weeks away)
<jsalisbury> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: CVE's
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: CVE's
<jsalisbury> The current CVE status can be reviewed at the following link:
<jsalisbury> http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/cve/pkg/ALL-linux.html
<jsalisbury> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Utopic/Trusty/Precise/Lucid (bjf/henrix/kamal/arges)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Utopic/Trusty/Precise/Lucid (bjf/henrix/kamal/arges)
<bjf> Status for the main kernels, until today:
<bjf>   *   Lucid - Verification & Testing
<bjf>   * Precise - Verification & Testing
<bjf>   *  Trusty - Verification & Testing
<bjf>   *  Utopic - Verification & Testing
<bjf>  
<bjf> Current opened tracking bugs details:
<bjf>   * http://kernel.ubuntu.com/sru/kernel-sru-workflow.html
<bjf> For SRUs, SRU report is a good source of information:
<bjf>   * http://kernel.ubuntu.com/sru/sru-report.html
<bjf>  
<bjf>  
<bjf> Schedule:
<bjf>  
<bjf> cycle: 12-Dec through 10-Jan
<bjf> ====================================================================
<bjf>          12-Dec   Last day for kernel commits for this cycle
<bjf> 14-Dec - 20-Dec   Kernel prep week.
<bjf> 21-Dec - 10-Jan   Bug verification; Regression testing; Release
<bjf> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
<jsalisbury> Thanks everyone
<jsalisbury> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Jan  6 17:03:54 2015 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2015/ubuntu-meeting.2015-01-06-17.00.moin.txt
<cking> thanks jsalisbury
#ubuntu-meeting 2015-01-08
 * slangasek waves
<jodh> o/
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Jan  8 16:01:29 2015 UTC.  The chair is slangasek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Lightning round
<mvo> hi
<slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e barry doko stgraber jodh bdmurray slangasek caribou infinity mvo sil2100 robru)
<slangasek> robru doko slangasek mvo stgraber jodh barry caribou sil2100 infinity bdmurray
<slangasek> robru: hi, around?
<slangasek> we'll come back to robru
<slangasek> doko is on vacation this week
<slangasek> so me next
<slangasek>  * Happy New Year!
<slangasek>  * working on filling open positions in the team
<slangasek>  * snappy development continues, with more cool things to be revealed soon
<slangasek>  * prepping for 14.04.2, which will be out in early February
<slangasek> (done)
<mvo> apt:
<mvo> - debug/fix/upload-to-ppa-for-testing a bug that appeared to be a hang
<mvo>   in "apt-get install" from https locations  (and add test) that
<mvo>   causes issues for software-center in trusty for large downloads
<mvo> click:
<mvo> - test/land fix for oxideqt-codecs and click 15.04 multiarch chroot creation
<mvo> snappy:
<mvo> - debug/workaround issue with i386 image upgrade that caused gid mismatch
<mvo>   on fs (#1408579 and python #23193)
<mvo> - debug/fix missing cloud-init on arm images
<mvo> - improved self-test for snappy
<mvo> - wrote packages diff generator for channels
<mvo> - promoted amd64 image, i386 pending because #1408579 needs fixing first
<mvo> - some work on go-bus
<mvo> (done)
<slangasek> stgraber:
<stgraber> oops
<stgraber> Got back to work yesterday, did a small change to system-image (added version_detail to index for new images) and a bunch of lxcfs, lxc and lxd work
<stgraber> that's about it
<stgraber> (done)
<slangasek> oops?  is it reproducible?  stgraber:
<slangasek> ;)
<stgraber> :)
<jodh> stgraber: yay - thanks for si change!
<slangasek> jodh: you're up
<jodh> * snappy:
<jodh>   - working on boot polish.
<jodh> â
<barry> short week due to flu (with lingering effects)
<barry> debian bug #774213 (could not reproduce)
<barry> worked a little on pycon 2015 language summit prep (i am co-chair)
<ubottu> Debian bug 774213 in zope2.13 "zope2.13: import zope.security._proxy -> SystemError: dynamic module not initialized properly" [Grave,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/774213
<barry> review new python-lockfile for sponsoree
<barry> done
<caribou> Misc bug hunting :
<caribou> python-pywbem CA cert support backport
<caribou> DHCP issue when PXE boot and NFS root
<caribou> cups env variable overriding
<caribou> (done)
<slangasek> sil2100 is on vacation this week
<slangasek> and infinity isn't on the channel
<slangasek> bdmurray:
<bdmurray> submitted RT to have apport version updated in production (no double Contents.gz)
<bdmurray> submitted RT to have errors_static_url updated in production
<bdmurray> updated daisy to record $arch stats for some submissions
<bdmurray> worked on errors launchpad code to display release / pocket for a package version
<bdmurray> submitted RT #77774 to have daisy updated in staging
<bdmurray> updated most_common_problems API call in errors to display FirstSeenRelease / LastSeenRelease
<bdmurray> tested and updated upstart bug 1300235 (apport-crash)
<ubottu> bug 1300235 in upstart (Ubuntu) "init crashed with SIGSEGV" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1300235
<bdmurray> review of halted phased updates
<bdmurray> release of verified SRUs
<bdmurray> uploaded vivid rsyslog bug fix for LP: #1366829
<bdmurray> uploaded utopic gparted bug fix for LP: #1376051
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1366829 in rsyslog (Ubuntu Utopic) "7.4.4-1ubuntu2.1 makes rsyslogd to take all the CPU in OpenVZ" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1366829
<bdmurray> uploaded utopic usb-creator bug fix for LP: #1279987
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1376051 in gparted (Ubuntu) "gpartedbin crashed with SIGABRT in g_assertion_message()" [Critical,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1376051
<bdmurray> uploaded trusty usb-creator bug fixes (LP: #1279987, LP: #1380041, LP: #1361474, LP: #1300361)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1279987 in usb-creator (Ubuntu Utopic) "usb-creator-gtk crashed with TypeError in __call__(): first argument must be the method signature string: GLib.Variant('a{sv}', {})" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1279987
<bdmurray> uploaded T and U SRU fixes for LP: #1366829 regarding rsyslog
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1380041 in usb-creator (Ubuntu Trusty) "Erasing NTFS formatted flash raises AttributeError: 'NoneType' object has no attribute 'get_cached_property'" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1380041
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1361474 in usb-creator (Ubuntu Trusty) "[SRU] Error erasing device when there is dos partition table but no partition" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1361474
<bdmurray> uploaded T and P SRU of python-apt fixing LP: #1397578 (update mirrors files)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1300361 in OEM Priority Project "[SRU] cannot format when no partition table is present" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1300361
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1397578 in python-apt (Ubuntu Trusty) "LTS release has outdated Ubuntu.mirrors file" [Low,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1397578
<bdmurray> resolved an issue with rls-v reports on cranberry
<bdmurray> modified bug bot to also review update-manager bugs for common release upgrade issues (i.e. Precise to Trusty)
<bdmurray> â done
<slangasek> any questions?
<slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<slangasek> ok
<slangasek> anything else today?
<slangasek> did the reyes magos bring you everything you wanted?
<slangasek> #endmeeting
 * barry is enjoying his myrh
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Jan  8 16:16:25 2015 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2015/ubuntu-meeting.2015-01-08-16.01.moin.txt
<slangasek> ;)
<slangasek> thanks all
<jodh> thanks!
<barry> thanks!
<mvo> thanks!
<caribou> thanks!
<belkinsa> PaulW2U, are you ready for the meeting?
<PaulW2U> belkinsa: I certainly am :)
<belkinsa> Perfect.
<belkinsa> !rmb
<ubottu> rmb is cjohnston, cyphermox, Destine, ejat,  hggdh, IdleOne, iulian, micahg,  Pendulum, PabloRubienes, freeflying, jared, s-fox, amachu, chilicuil, rickspencer3 and popey. Meeting time.
<belkinsa> Meeting in three meetings.
<hggdh> \o
<chilicuil> \o/
<cyphermox> o/
<belkinsa> Prefect!  Four!
<cyphermox> meeting in three meetings?
<hggdh> minutes in three meetings?
<belkinsa> Yup
<cyphermox> awesome.
<belkinsa> minutes*
<hggdh> :-)
<cwayne> im here too
<belkinsa> cwayne, are you a board member, I don't recall.
<cwayne> yep
<belkinsa> Okay, thank you.
<cwayne> unless I've been removed (which to be totally honest would be fair probably due to missed meetings :P)
<belkinsa> #startmeeting 22 UTC Ubuntu Membership Board Meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Jan  8 22:00:23 2015 UTC.  The chair is belkinsa. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | 22 UTC Ubuntu Membership Board Meeting | Current topic:
<belkinsa> #voters belkinsa cwayne cyphermox chilicuil hggdh
<meetingology> Current voters: belkinsa chilicuil cwayne cyphermox hggdh
<belkinsa> Have I forgotten anyone?
<belkinsa> Who is all for the meeting?
<hggdh> this we are all there
<belkinsa> Okay, PaulW2U is ready too.
<belkinsa> Hello and welcome to the Membership Board meeting!  The wiki page for the Review Board is available here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/Boards.  We will attempt to get through all of the applicants that have added themselves to that list before today's meeting. If we are unable to make it through the entire list due to time constraints, then at the next meeting we will pick up where we left off. The format for the meeting is as foll
<belkinsa> ows: We will go through the list of applicants one by one, by date of application (FIFO). Each applicant should introduce themselves (1-5 sentences) and provide links to their Ubuntu Wiki page. After the introduction the members of the Membership Review Board will review the pages and, if needed, ask the applicant further questions. During this time it is encouraged for other members of the community to show their support for the applica
<belkinsa> nt. Do not be alarmed if the members of the Membership Review Board are quiet during this time; they are most likely reading wiki/launchpad/forum/other pages and deciding how they are going to vote.
<belkinsa> #topic PaulW2U's Application
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | 22 UTC Ubuntu Membership Board Meeting | Current topic: PaulW2U's Application
<belkinsa> Are you ready PaulW2U?
<PaulW2U> Yup
<belkinsa> Go ahead, please introduce yourself.
<PaulW2U> Good evening. My name is Paul White, living near Bristol in SW England.
<PaulW2U> My Launchpad and Wiki pages are - https://launchpad.net/~paulw2u & https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PaulW2U
<PaulW2U> I started using Ubuntu in May 2010, participating in the forums and reporting bugs, mostly while using the current development version.
<PaulW2U> I also test ISOs for Ubuntu and its main flavours from pre-alpha to final release - approaching 400 tests so far.
<PaulW2U> My main contribution is my involvement with the Ubuntu Weekly Newsletter. 69 issues so far, 56 consecutively without a break.
<PaulW2U> I started by just writing a few summaries each week but now I also search for links to stories and proof read the final draft prior to release.
<PaulW2U> I have often been the sole contributor dealing with the news content before pleia2 or jose add statistics, review and publish.
<PaulW2U> That concludes my application. Thank you for your time this evening.
<jose> he's a great contributor for sure, he's been definitely been giving a hand a lot lately :)
<cyphermox> jose: great that you're here to cheer ;)
<jose> hey cyphermox! long time no see!
<belkinsa> Any questions for PaulW2U or any comments from the crowd?
<belkinsa> #votesrequired 4
<meetingology> votes now need 4 to be passed
<belkinsa> #voters iulian
<meetingology> Current voters: belkinsa chilicuil cwayne cyphermox hggdh iulian
<chilicuil> I've been enjoying the UWN for a long time, thanks for your commitment PaulW2U , that's an easy +1
<chilicuil> +1
<cyphermox> +1
<hggdh> +1
<cyphermox> ah, wait
<cyphermox> voting isn't started
<hggdh> oh yes -- belkinsa : #vote on PaulW2U for Ubuntu membership
<belkinsa> #vote For PaulW2U
<meetingology> Please vote on: For PaulW2U
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<belkinsa> #votes For PaulW2U
<belkinsa> #vote For PaulW2U
<meetingology> Voting still open on: For PaulW2U
<hggdh> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from hggdh
<cyphermox> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from cyphermox
<belkinsa> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from belkinsa
<cwayne> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from cwayne
<iulian> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from iulian
<belkinsa> Is that everyone?
<chilicuil> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from chilicuil
<belkinsa> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: For PaulW2U
<meetingology> Votes for:6 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<cyphermox> congrats PaulW2U
<jose> congratulations, PaulW2U!
<cwayne> congrats PaulW2U!
<belkinsa> \o/ PaulW2U!
<PaulW2U> Thanks very much everybody \o/
<cwayne> welcome to the club :)
<belkinsa> And I will add you in a moment.
<hggdh> PaulW2U: welcome :-) and thank you
<PaulW2U> Glad I applied after a long wait :)
<belkinsa> Thank for the meeting everyone!
<belkinsa> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Jan  8 22:09:44 2015 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2015/ubuntu-meeting.2015-01-08-22.00.moin.txt
<hggdh> belkinsa: thank you for spearheading it
<Laney> you guys meet fast
<belkinsa> Not a problem.
<belkinsa> Laney, we just go through apps.
<iulian> Just added PaulW2U to ~ubuntumembers.
<belkinsa> And thank you iulian for adding them
<belkinsa> him*
<cyphermox> Laney: did you have anything to add?
<hggdh> Laney: if it is an open/shut case, yes
<Laney> I'm just expressing my amazement
<cyphermox> ok ;)
<Laney> we're not so fast in the DMB. :)
<Laney> I'm sure PaulW2U will be a great member ;-)
<hggdh> that is true...
<cyphermox> sometimes it's clear what the contributions are
#ubuntu-meeting 2016-01-11
<tyhicks> hello
<mdeslaur> yllow
 * sbeattie waves
<tyhicks> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Jan 11 16:35:56 2016 UTC.  The chair is tyhicks. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<tyhicks> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<tyhicks> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Announcements
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Announcements
<tyhicks> Andreas Cadhalpun provided a debdiff for wily for ffmpeg (LP: #1528682)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1528682 in ffmpeg (Ubuntu) "FFmpeg security fixes December 2015 II" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1528682
<tyhicks> Thank you for your assistance in keeping Ubuntu users secure! :)
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<tyhicks> jdstrand: you're up
<jdstrand> hey
<jdstrand> I will be working with zyga on snappy capabilities
<jdstrand> I'll be going through existing snappy frameworks as they pertain to new capabilities work
<jdstrand> I also have two embargoed issues
<jdstrand> that's it from me
<mdeslaur> guess it's my turn
<mdeslaur> I'm on bug triage this week
<mdeslaur> I'm currently testing libvirt updates, and have an embargoed update to work on
<mdeslaur> after that, I plan on picking something else off the CVE list
<mdeslaur> that's about it, sbeattie?
<sbeattie> I'm on cve triage this week
<sbeattie> I'm reviewing test failures from do ko's test pie build, and need to finish fixing the kernel build to drop pie
<sbeattie> I have some outstanding apparmor patches to review
<sbeattie> There's a couple of QRT test failures related to new arch bringup I need to investigate
<sbeattie> That and normal kernel cve monitoring will likely consume my week.
<sbeattie> tyhicks: you're up
<tyhicks> I'm in the happy place
<tyhicks> I have an embargoed issue
<tyhicks> and otherwise will be focusing on AppArmor stacking work
<tyhicks> drive the AppArmor stacking interface designs in libapparmor and securityfs
<tyhicks> create easy to use namespace creation APIs and binutils
<tyhicks> if I have any downtime, I'll play with rngd and the BBB's hwrng
<tyhicks> that's it for me
<tyhicks> jj isn't here yet so you're up sarnold
<sarnold> I'm on community this week
<sarnold> the server team wil llet us know this week which of the dpdk packages they actually want in main in xenial, so I'll return to that
<tyhicks> sarnold: ah, have you been blocked on that?
<sarnold> and I'll probably start in on the MIR backlog elsewhere in the meantime
<sarnold> tyhicks: not really, email and bug backlogs ate most of last week, and john's userspace dfa code was a nice change :)
<tyhicks> ok
<sarnold> so while it's strictly true that Id idn't work on it as a result of not knowing, it wasn't like Iwas starved for things to do :)
<sarnold> I think that's it for me, chrisccoulson?
<chrisccoulson> This week I plan to get thunderbird out, and then I'm hoping to get back to normality after the post-holiday craziness (so I'll be tackling some of https://launchpad.net/oxide/+milestone/branch-1.13)
<chrisccoulson> I don't have any other updates planned. I think that's it for me
<tyhicks> thanks
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
<tyhicks> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.
<tyhicks> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/gnumeric.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/loganalyzer.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/libsocialweb.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/charybdis.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/pitivi.html
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
<tyhicks> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
<tyhicks> jdstrand, mdeslaur, sbeattie, jjohansen, sarnold, ChrisCoulson: Thanks!
<tyhicks> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Jan 11 16:53:28 2016 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2016/ubuntu-meeting.2016-01-11-16.35.moin.txt
<jdstrand> tyhicks: thanks!
<sarnold> thanks tyhicks!
<sbeattie> tyhicks: thanks!
<mdeslaur> thanks!
#ubuntu-meeting 2016-01-12
<hallyn> \o
<hallyn> looks like gnuoy didn't update the mtg page tsk tsk
<caribou> hallyn: so no meeting ?
<hallyn> caribou: indeed
<ahoneybun> wxl, no meeting today?
<wxl> ahoneybun: was just looking at that
<wxl> ahoneybun: yeah we have no one on the agenda, so
<ahoneybun> I thought some people term's were up?
#ubuntu-meeting 2016-01-14
 * slangasek waves
<robru> o/
 * cyphermox waves
<chiluk> o/
 * xnox waves
<tdaitx> \o
 * tdaitx also waves
<cyphermox> everybody do the wave.
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Jan 14 16:01:42 2016 UTC.  The chair is slangasek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Lightning round
<xnox> \o\ \o/ /o/
<slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e barry doko bdmurray slangasek caribou infinity sil2100 robru cyphermox pitti tdaitx xnox chiluk)
<slangasek> chiluk tdaitx pitti robru infinity bdmurray slangasek barry doko cyphermox sil2100 caribou xnox
<sil2100> Phew
 * xnox winning
<chiluk> guess I'm first..
 * tdaitx 2nd place!
<sil2100> I still have some time to prepare the report...
<chiluk> Fixed https://bugs.launchpad.net/maas/+bug/1484696 waiting on upload approval and SRU.
<chiluk> Fixed https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/1527062 Verification TBD.
<chiluk> --done--
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1484696 in apache2 (Ubuntu) "Unable to connect to: ws://<maas IP>:/MAAS/ws" [High,In progress]
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1527062 in linux (Ubuntu) "XFS Deadlock on 4.2+" [High,In progress]
<tdaitx> * Sort out freeipmi merge confusion (LP: #1527685)
<tdaitx> * Checking OpenJDK 7 candidate patches to upstream
<tdaitx> * Backport 8u71 security patches to OpenJDK 7
<tdaitx> Next:
<tdaitx> * Backport 8u71 security patches to OpenJDK 6
<tdaitx> * Provide OpenJDK 7 & 6 with 8u71 security patches to the security team
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1527685 in freeipmi (Ubuntu) "Please merge freeipmi 1.4.11-1 (main) from Debian unstable (main)" [Wishlist,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1527685
<tdaitx> (done)
<pitti> autopkgtest:
<pitti>  - lots of manual maintenance mostly due to some LXC problems on armhf, and on a juju bug in prodstack; investigated with #juju and IS; nothing worked, re-deployed entire environment
<pitti>  - improve heuristics of which souce package version to download; not perfect yet (particularly for the kernel), but better for most cases (LP: #1517426)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1517426 in autopkgtest (Ubuntu) "apt-get source the pinned versions, not the latest available ones" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1517426
<pitti>  - Adjust deployment script to work with juju-local, as preparation for the upcoming virtual sprint and for easier development
<pitti>  - Attempt to move armhf testing into Scalingstack; first attempt failed due to LP: #1531768, alternative attempt with direct kernel+initrd boot is blocked on some Scalingstack fixes (wgrant was looking into that)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1531768 in linux (Ubuntu) "arm64 kernel and multiple CPUs is unusably slow" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1531768
<pitti> misc:
<pitti>  - unstick some packages in -proposed, do some library transitions
<pitti>  - ongoing: PostgreSQL 9.4 â 9.5 transition
<pitti>  - apport: fix tests with gcc 6 and some flaky test
<pitti>  - Help didrocks with running ubuntu-make upstream tests on autopkgtest CI; we found various issues both in the u-make tests and in the infra
<pitti>  - Fix wrong keyboard layout on console (#1531442)
<pitti> (END)
<robru> lp:canonical-mojo-specs
<robru> * FINALLY got first successful train deployment in mojo CI in over 2 months
<robru> lp:bileto
<robru> * phase 2 of britney support: gating qa queue on britney approval
<robru> * fixed a huge bug in britney configuration that prevented it from identifying regressions (britney was rubberstamping nearly everything as ALWAYSFAIL until today)
<robru> * split qa signoff field into lander signoff and qa signoff, hopefully fixing much confusion.
<robru> * many minor bug fixes and optimizations.
<robru> (done)
<slangasek> infinity's not in channel; bdmurray ?
<bdmurray> worked on mojo specification on wendigo / devops environment
<bdmurray> fixed permissions issue with creating daisy and errors tarballs
<bdmurray> investgation into mojo spec failure to install cassandra and tried to work around it
<bdmurray> investigation into derived.archive.c.c access failures from the production retracers
<bdmurray> updated daisy to remove ddebs entry for ubuntu-rtms
<bdmurray> submitted RT to have daisy updated on the retracers
<bdmurray> worked with webops regarding upgrading the Error Tracker and charm errors
<bdmurray> reverted changes to error tracker charms for precise, created trusty branches
<bdmurray> updated ifupdown bug with Stacktrace for seb128 / pitti
<bdmurray> investigation into apport not creating a SAS for an ifupdown crash
<bdmurray> reported apport bug LP: #1533349 and submitted MP
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1533349 in Apport "StacktraceAddressSignature is generated using suboptimal function" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1533349
<bdmurray> investigation into release upgrade bug LP: #1497688
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1497688 in apt (Ubuntu Trusty) "dmsetup and libdevmapper1.02.1 fail to install, depend on each other" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1497688
<bdmurray> upload trusty fix for apt bug LP: #1497688  / LP: #1347721
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1347721 in apt (Ubuntu Trusty) "Saucy -> Trusty upgrade failed: procps fails to configure" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1347721
<bdmurray> uploaded xenial fix for bug LP: #1517625
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1517625 in biosdevname (Ubuntu Wily) "Typo in hooks/biosdevname" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1517625
<bdmurray> worked on app-install-data-partner bug LP: #1531194
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1531194 in app-install-data-partner (Ubuntu Xenial) "13.04 "raring-partner" channel included in 14.04/15.04/15.10/16.04" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1531194
<bdmurray> fixing ubuntu-release-upgrader test failures
<bdmurray> reuploaded bzr to Trusty SRU queue to get LaunchpadBugsFixed
<bdmurray> reuploaded bzr to the Trusty SRU queue for vincent (ftbfs)
<bdmurray> â done
 * xnox what is mojo?
<robru> xnox: you don't want to know
<pitti> bdmurray: FWIW, I briefly looked at that, but I can't make sense of that yet
<bdmurray> pitti: I'd be happy to talk about it.
<barry> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YlE_pLwU_0
<robru> xnox: in-house bespoke wrapper around juju, it's used to deploy all Canonical cloud services
<slangasek>  * merges
<slangasek>  * helped unblock a few packages from -proposed
<slangasek>  * triaging of IBM Power bug escalations
<slangasek>  * finishing up golang merge sponsorship this week (LP: #1524165)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1524165 in golang (Ubuntu) "merge with debian" [Wishlist,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1524165
<slangasek> (done)
<barry> python issue 22995 (regression in pickability tests affecting cython-based packages); testing other issues with python 3.5
<barry> LP: #1526613; LP: #1440504
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1526613 in python3.5 (Ubuntu) "ftbfs asyncio test failure with 3.5.1-2, used to pass with 3.5.0-2" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1526613
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1440504 in libpeas (Ubuntu) "libpeas-1.0-0 depends on both libpython2.7 and libpython3.4" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1440504
<barry> click-toolbelt review and sponsorship for pindonga (ultimately he chose not to upload it)
<barry> pycurl 7.21.5-1 and 7.21.5-1ubuntu1
<barry> python3 blueprint ping :)
<barry> new dput code reviews
<barry> python-virtualenv 13.1.2-1
<barry> returning to dirtbike/rewheeling work
<barry> --done--
<doko> - gcc6 test rebuild finished, evaluated, and filed issues for all ICEs
<doko> - gcc-5 test build from the ibm branch
<doko> - python update for 22925
<doko> - around 20 merges in main
<doko> (done)
<cyphermox>  - back from vacation, catching up
<cyphermox>  - added MokSBStateRT variable in upstream shim
<cyphermox>  - dkms update for Secure Boot support.
<cyphermox>  - completed some outstanding multipath SRUs (herding testers)
<cyphermox>  - powerpc-ibm-utils SRU
<cyphermox>  - isc-dhcp merge for 4.3.3, with fix for bug LP: #1186662
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1186662 in isc-dhcp (Ubuntu) "isc-dhcp-server fails to renew lease file" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1186662
<cyphermox> (fyi, isc-dhcp is in NEW)
<cyphermox>  - got pulled into a meeting about networking / wifi on phone
<cyphermox>  - lsvpd, ppc64-diag package updates
<cyphermox>  - more multipath-tools SRUs/bug fixes to be done this week
<cyphermox> (done)
<sil2100> - Landing team work, silo coordination, preparing landing e-mails
<sil2100> - RTM Status meetings
<sil2100> - system-image:
<sil2100>   * Work on the testability branch
<sil2100> - Image manipulation and copies for ubuntu-core
<sil2100> - Landing Team tools:
<sil2100>   * Add the map-image script to the tools, displaying rootfs->number mappings for images
<sil2100>   * Modify commitlog generation scripts to create symlinks for other touch channels
<sil2100> - +1-maintenance:
<sil2100>   * Merged ppp, network-manager-pptp and fso-gsmd
<sil2100>   * Briefly looked into the reason why ppp is blocked (ppp-modules for s390x)
<sil2100> - Manual imports of custom tarballs for the tarball teams
<sil2100> - Writing up a script for analysing the delta between vivid-overlay and xenial
<sil2100>   * Started interpreting the results
<sil2100> - Sync up on current touch device situation and get info for the future
<sil2100> - Packaging reviews for dual-landing merges
<sil2100> (done)
<sil2100> caribou: you're next (if you're around)
<caribou> sil2100: I'm hre
<caribou> here
<caribou> Bugfix :
<caribou> - rsyslog fails to start under upstart : More investigation
<caribou> - DMB preparation
<caribou> - LP1532146 - initramfs-tools nvme support
<caribou> - LP1528101 - vm.min_free_kbytes crash issues
<caribou> - LP1534106 - rsyslog segfault with juju
<caribou> - Nut merge : waiting for sponsor
<caribou> Project:
<caribou> - Research on clvm/dlm supportability
 * xnox grins
<caribou> â Done
<caribou> xnox: I thought you would ;)
<xnox> fixed qemu
<xnox> fixed cloud-images, tested them on two operating systems
<xnox> fixed strace
<xnox> fixed procps
<xnox> requested fixes for kernel, some are done
<xnox> fixed kdevplatform, libmpd, packagekit-qt (bootstrap)
<xnox> lsb is now in-sync (debian pro-actively took our remaining delta)
<xnox> doing test-rebuilds with golang-go 1.6 beta2
<xnox> discussed sever/d-i image automated qa, didn't do actions from that yet
<xnox> end of life for David Bowie & Alan Rickman
<xnox> ..
<slangasek> mmm nut merge
<slangasek> it's like faux nutmeg
<caribou> :)
<cyphermox> oh, chicken milk, yes :)
<slangasek> xnox: you worked on their EOL?
<caribou> would be nice to touch base about clvm/dlm
<caribou> @AOB
<meetingology> caribou: Error: "AOB" is not a valid command.
<xnox> slangasek, i cannot confirm or deny
<slangasek> any questions RE: status?
<doko> have a look at the ftbfs for the test rebuild ...
<slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<slangasek> caribou: clvm/dlm?
<caribou> well, yes : while clvm is in main, the dlm/libdlm packages are in Universe
<caribou> and clvm relies on them
<caribou> (aside from the dlm package being broken)
<caribou> do we have an official statement or plan of action on supporting a clustering architecture ?
<slangasek> caribou: are you asking about for 14.04 or 16.04?
<pitti> I think this is ancient, from fabionnes' time
<caribou> slangasek: I would say both
<xnox> caribou, i see dlm in debian new, i wonder if that's better than our version of dlm.
<slangasek> 14.04, from what I can see, is an oversight; nobody reviewed the seeds to make sure that the things in there were things we wanted to support
<caribou> 14.04 is broken and if we plan to support it, we should fix it in 16.04
<bdmurray> regarding bug 1531194 - Its seems like an obvious fix do I need a test case for it?
<ubottu> bug 1531194 in app-install-data-partner (Ubuntu Xenial) "13.04 "raring-partner" channel included in 14.04/15.04/15.10/16.04" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1531194
<pitti> I thought our clusters are being called "clouds"
<slangasek> caribou: for 16.04, I think this needs to get out of the seeds
<slangasek> however, it's a server team call
<xnox> at the time i touched it i remember cluster-agents got deprecated, and like i promoted clvm cause it seemed like the right thing to do.
<slangasek> it's in the server seed
<caribou> I will talk to the server team about it
<caribou> but do we want to have a supported clustering architecture ?
<caribou> clustering as in shared storage access in that case
<slangasek> that's also a server team decision
<caribou> slangasek: ok, will talk to them
<slangasek> if the server team tells us the answer is "yes" and that they need our support for it, we will help
<slangasek> but we went two years before anyone even noticed clvm was in main and didn't work
<caribou> slangasek: true
<xnox> slangasek, i wonder if that coincides with working 12.04 and people starting 16.04 migration prep.
<xnox> (ie. skip every other LTS, because it over laps)
<caribou> I have another "support" question : do we do any kind of test of Unity on the ppc64el architecture ?
<slangasek> xnox: the question was raised because of a customer trying to deploy it on 14.04; so no
<slangasek> caribou: absolutely not
<xnox> caribou, no desktops are support on ppc64el and ubuntu-desktop isn't/shouldn't be part of ppc64el.
<slangasek> we support ppc64el for servers only
<xnox> slangasek, i think i should drop ubuntu-desktop on unsupported arches.
<caribou> ok, that's what I needed to know
<xnox> as far as i know it's only really supported on amd64
<slangasek> caribou: for packages that are built on ppc64el, they get autopkgtests
<caribou> slangasek: thanks!
<slangasek> xnox: propose to desktop team? :)
<xnox> slangasek, sure.
<pitti> unity doesn't have any autopkgtests, just unity8 (and that's alwaysfailed across the board)
<xnox> Laney, is it ok to make ubuntu-desktop like Architecutre: i386 amd64 ? or maybe armhf too, as i'm sure unity7 is not supported on anything but x86
<caribou> we've seen people try to start Unity on ppc64el with vesa but it fails badly
<slangasek> doko: you wanted to talk about test build failures?
<Trevinho> unity7 used to work in armhf... Not tried for long time, though
<doko> slangasek, no talk, just mention the regressions
<xnox> Laney, cause we got a unity7/ppc64el support request, and we're like "no, no no no no" https://youtu.be/31g0YE61PLQ
<cyphermox> re: unity7: might some people want powerpc?
<slangasek> caribou: IBM has certainly asked about running a desktop; but that's out of scope for our engagement on ppc64el
<caribou> xnox: I wouldn't say "support request" but rather "support questino"
<slangasek> doko: maybe repaste the link here?
<xnox> Trevinho, i'm pretty sure this one time X got updated, and we didn't get new armhf blobs for egl (somewhere) thus unity7 stopped working.
<xnox> toshiba AC100 ?!
<xnox> ogra_, would remember
<doko> http://people.ubuntuwire.org/~wgrant/rebuild-ftbfs-test/test-rebuild-20151218.1-xenial-baseline-xenial.html
<slangasek> [LINK] http://people.ubuntuwire.org/~wgrant/rebuild-ftbfs-test/test-rebuild-20151218.1-xenial-baseline-xenial.html
<slangasek> doko: thanks :)
<slangasek> only 35 build failures in main?  clearly we aren't breaking the release hard enough
<slangasek> a lot of familiar names on that list (shim, yaboot).  shim will get updated this cycle (cyphermox) so that'll take care of thato ne
<doko> [LINK] http://people.ubuntuwire.org/~wgrant/rebuild-ftbfs-test/test-rebuild-20151218.1-pie-z-now-xenial.html
<cyphermox> yup
<doko> pie will do that for u s...
<slangasek> doko: right, do you have the PIE build test link?
<cyphermox> I already had to rebuild shim here to test stuff, and hit the bug, and fixed it with the fix we already have committed
<xnox> slangasek, well, things did get fixed since the rebuild =)
<slangasek> xnox: which the rebuild status pages track, if so
<doko> and 980 packages ftbfs with GCC 6
<slangasek> 7 extra build failures in main w/ PIE
<slangasek> manageable!
<slangasek> btw
<slangasek> I had an email conversation with the server team about trying to get caught up on merges before the LTS
<slangasek> they're pushing hard to get there
<slangasek> but they're short on uploaders
<slangasek> so upload sponsorship is going to be key for helping them get through this backlog
<cyphermox> I thought I already offered stgraber my services
<slangasek> if you have cycles to spare, please send them there
<cyphermox> (so he could tell them)
<slangasek> cyphermox: not sure if the message got passed, maybe you want to flag rbasak or jgrimm :)  but let's see if we figure out a more systematic way to organize upload sponsorships
<cyphermox> yup
<cyphermox> sponsoring overview? ;)
<slangasek> doko: fewer build failures in universe when turning -pie on? hmmm
<slangasek> is the PIE rebuild complete?
<jgrimm> thanks slangasek! indeed help with sponsorships and mentoring in general would be greatly appreciated.
<caribou> slangasek: jgrimm: isn't that was +1 maintenance was suppose to achieve ?
<cyphermox> maybe
<cyphermox> caribou: sponsoring things in a timely manner is always an issue though, not limited to +1
<slangasek> caribou: +1 maintenance is really the structure of rotating individuals in to work on archive tasks... merges are a minor part of that
<cyphermox> people send patches all the time
<caribou> slangasek: ah, ok, I understood otherwise
<slangasek> ok
<cyphermox> +1 maint is probably also sending people down the deep end if they're just starting to upload
<slangasek> other business, Monday is a bank holiday here in the US
<slangasek> so some of us are off
 * barry will probably swapday it
<slangasek> (either Monday, or a nearby swap day)
<doko> slangasek, I hope so ...
<doko> slangasek, it's only three archs
<slangasek> doko: ahh true
<slangasek> looking at the per-arch failures, amd64 increases from 760 to 964 - so indeed, there are more failures there
<bdmurray> I'll be out tomorrow instead fwiw
<slangasek> ok, anything else today?
<pitti> slangasek: vsprint?
<slangasek> pitti: will follow up by email on that with details
<slangasek> (today)
<pitti> slangasek: ah, ok
<slangasek> sounds like that's it, then
<slangasek> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Jan 14 16:42:11 2016 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2016/ubuntu-meeting.2016-01-14-16.01.moin.txt
<slangasek> thanks!
<caribou> slangasek: thanks!
<barry> thanks!
<pitti> cheers
#ubuntu-meeting 2017-01-09
<ratliff> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Jan  9 16:30:24 2017 UTC.  The chair is ratliff. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<jdstrand> hi!
<ratliff> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<ratliff> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<ratliff> [TOPIC] Announcements
<ratliff> Andreas Cadhalpun provided debdiffs for xenial and yakkety for ffmpeg (LP: #1648265 LP: #1647226)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Announcements
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1648265 in ffmpeg (Ubuntu Yakkety) "FFmpeg security fixes December 2016 (yakkety)" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1648265
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1647226 in ffmpeg (Ubuntu Xenial) "FFmpeg security fixes December 2016 (xenial)" [Low,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1647226
<ratliff> Thank you for your assistance in keeping Ubuntu users secure! :)
<ratliff> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<ratliff> mdeslaur: you're up!
<ratliff> jdstrand: you may want to go ahead and we'll catch up with mdeslaur later
<jdstrand> last week:
<jdstrand> various review tools updates to support new yaml and snap declarations
<jdstrand> investigate/fix/upload SRU/verify seccomp changes in support of snapd on 14.04
<jdstrand> this week:
<jdstrand> make sure ufw 0.35-3 gets into Debian and zesty (to fix a ftbfs due to an updated netbase which broke the testsuite). trunk is fixed and packages prepared/tested, just need to make sure they get everywhere
<jdstrand> plan to continue to help Tyler and Emily with sprint preparation, feedback and outcomes as necessary
<jdstrand> have several PR reviews and followups for snapd 2.21
<jdstrand> organize snapd/policykit documents for future discussions
<jdstrand> I have a number of policy updates I'd like to have in place this week in time for snapd 2.21
<jdstrand> work on seccomp arg filtering policy in earnest
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: you're up :)
<jdstrand> I guess sbeattie would be next
<sbeattie> I'm in the happy place this week
<sbeattie> I need to finish the ssh updates I was working on
<sbeattie> I also need to look in more depth at the aslr/relocatable symbols stuff that came up
<sbeattie> I have a few kernel signoffs to do due to respins
<sbeattie> And I'll try to pick up another update as well
<sbeattie> that's it for me.
<sbeattie> ratliff: back to you?
<ratliff> thanks sbeattie!
<ratliff> sarnold: you are up
<sarnold_> I'm on community this week
<sarnold> I can't recall where I left off with MIRs, but there'll be enough email catchup that it might be acedemic anyway :)
<sarnold> yeah, that's all I can think of. heh. vacation for the win :)
<ratliff> :-) welcome back!
<ratliff> I'm on bug triage this week
<sarnold> is chrisccoulson back?
<ratliff> yes
<chrisccoulson> I'm here
<ratliff> go ahead chrisccoulson
<chrisccoulson> oh, sorry, I was a bit unprepared :)
<chrisccoulson> 1 second
<chrisccoulson> This week, I need to get thunderbird up-to-date. I've also got an embargoed update to do
<chrisccoulson> The various Firefox PPAs are in a bit of a state too (not building). I plan to fix that as well
<chrisccoulson> I need to spend some time backporting gcc 4.9 to trusty, and also trying to get firefox building without --disable-rust
<chrisccoulson> Other than that, I'll be working on https://blueprints.launchpad.net/oxide/+spec/ubuntu-webview-implementation
<chrisccoulson> That's me done
<ratliff> thanks, chrisccoulson! sorry for trying to jump ahead of you :-/
<ratliff> I'm on bug triage this week.
<ratliff> I'm going to continue looking at UCT to generate notifications for the Cloud Archive and modernize the look
<ratliff> Also have a variety of internal tasks on my agenda.
<ratliff> ty hicks is sprinting this week
<ratliff> jj ohansen released AppArmor 2.11
<ratliff> anything else for the weekly standup?
<ratliff> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
<ratliff> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.
<ratliff> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
<ratliff> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/darktable.html
<ratliff> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/cableswig.html
<ratliff> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/sdcc.html
<ratliff> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/csound.html
<ratliff> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/p7zip.html
<ratliff> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
<ratliff> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
<ratliff> chrisccoulson, jdstrand, sarnold, sbeattie: Thanks!
<ratliff> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Jan  9 16:49:54 2017 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2017/ubuntu-meeting.2017-01-09-16.30.moin.txt
<sbeattie> ratliff: thanks!
#ubuntu-meeting 2017-01-10
<rbasak> Are we having a meeting today?
<rbasak> Not much has happened over the holidays I think, and I believe three are away.
<nacc> rbasak: i'm fine either way
 * smb would also just be back from vacation and not have news
<rharper> might have more next week
<rbasak> Let's say that we're skipping today unless someone objects in the next seven minutes.
<smb> ack
#ubuntu-meeting 2017-01-12
<barry> o/
<infinity> o\
<bdmurray> \o
<caribou> /o\
<genii> \o\
<xnox> \o/
<chiluk> O/
<xnox> .... but our managers and tech leads are in CPT
<chiluk> canceled then!
<barry> #endmeeting
<barry> er
<cyphermox> that was quick.
<bdmurray> wait, I woke up for this!
<barry> let me see if i can find the shuf; i'll run it
<bdmurray> I was kidding.
<infinity> I'm all for skipping. :P
<infinity> I didn't realise management was on the other side of the planet.
<barry> well then, yes, let's cancel
<chiluk> wow infinity I'm surprised they didn't drag you there as well.
<barry> bdmurray: enjoy your nap!
<infinity> We don't technically have a TL, so I get to skip on TL obligations.  Sometimes.
<chiluk> infinity smart man...
<infinity> Except when people decide that I am, and then I don't.
<barry> see ya
#ubuntu-meeting 2018-01-08
<elacheche> o/ There is a LC meeting here now, right?
<elacheche> ping kyrofa
<kyrofa> So sorry, knee deep in code! I'm here
<kyrofa> Huh. Don't see anyone else, though
<kyrofa> But yeah, I thought there was a meeting as well
<elacheche> :)
<elacheche> o/ gsilvapt
<kyrofa> Hey there gsilvapt
<gsilvapt> hello there
<gsilvapt> sorry for being late, was looking for some medicine for my throat
<gsilvapt> kyrofa, is everyone around?
<kyrofa> gsilvapt, kenvandine just joined, not seeing the others though
<gsilvapt> kyrofa, I'll send a message on Telegram
<gsilvapt> kyrofa, what do we usually do when half of the council is absent? It's a pitty for the LoCos who made an effort to get approved. I'm not sure which ones are around though
<kenvandine> indeed
<wxl> you guys can always use bug reports
<kyrofa> I'm afraid we don't have a quorum
<elacheche> Ubuntu Tunisia is here â elacheche & nzoueidi
<kenvandine> :(
<nzoueidi> Am here
<nzoueidi> Hey folks
<elacheche> o/ wxl :)
<kyrofa> Actually wait... what about Sujeevan? Did his term expire over the holidays?
<gsilvapt> I'm not 100% sure.
<gsilvapt> Yes, it did kyrofa
<gsilvapt> On the 22nd he said his membership would expire in 2 weeks. That was last week
<kyrofa> Well, that means we only have 5 total council members currently. Does that make us a majority?
<kyrofa> (the fact that three of us are here, I mean)
<kenvandine> indeed
<gsilvapt> I would agree so. Carla isn't joining as she is feeling sick
<kyrofa> Yeah, let's go ahead
<gsilvapt> Suujevan is not part of the council anymore unfortunately, so yeah we can proceed
<wxl> if you need an extra vote, i'm sure i could wrangle up the cc :)
<gsilvapt> We're three, it is impossible to tie this, wxl but thank you! :D
<gsilvapt> kyrofa, do you mind taking control of the meeting?
<kyrofa> Not at all, although I need to read up on meetingology real quick. I never seem to retain that information
<gsilvapt> hehe, sure take your time. and thanks!
<kyrofa> #startmeeting LoCo Council Meeting, 20180108
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Jan  8 20:21:14 2018 UTC.  The chair is kyrofa. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | LoCo Council Meeting, 20180108 | Current topic:
<kyrofa> #chair kenvandine
<meetingology> Current chairs: kenvandine kyrofa
<kyrofa> #chair gsilvapt
<meetingology> Current chairs: gsilvapt kenvandine kyrofa
<kyrofa> In December's meeting, we had several re-verification applications to review. We requested more information from a few of them, and provided a two-month extension
<kyrofa> Today we have two of those locos to review: Myanmar and Tunisia
<kyrofa> Folks want to say hello for the minutes?
<elacheche> o/ from Tunisia
<nzoueidi> Hey from Tunisia too :)
<kenvandine> anyone from Myanmar?
<kyrofa> Well, why don't we get started with Tunisia, then
<gsilvapt> Hello everyone! And a happy to new year!
<kyrofa> #topic Ubuntu Tunisia Re-verification
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | LoCo Council Meeting, 20180108 | Current topic: Ubuntu Tunisia Re-verification
<elacheche> Hello folks gsilvapt kyrofa kenvandine, Happy New year, Ubuntu Tunisia is here represented by  elacheche (LoCo Contact) & nzoueidi, firts of all, I'd like to apologize for missing last month's meeting, I was relaying on the Ubuntu Fridge calendar (http://ubuntu-news.org/calendars/) to remind me, it turned out that there was a bug in the date set on the calendar for the last month.
<kenvandine> elacheche, no worries, glad you made it this month
<elacheche> :)
<elacheche> Our ReVerificaton Wiki â https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TunisianTeam/ReVerificationApplication2017
<elacheche> I'll be happy to openly answer your questions
<gsilvapt> elacheche, yes, we actually have to apologize for that. In the meantime, we fixed that to avoid any more confusion and misleading information
<elacheche> No worries :)
<nzoueidi> I appologize too to not make it the last time, I was stuck at work.
<gsilvapt> elacheche, the section Scheduled Activities are things you want to start doing ASAP or you guys have already something running?
<nzoueidi> gsilvapt: actually, I added that section. We are planning to do them asap, likewise, I started to prepare tasks related to that section
<elacheche> Those are things we want to start asap
<gsilvapt> Ok, thank you
<elacheche> We need to work on re-stuffing too, as all old active members are no longer here due of life related things (work/family)
<kenvandine> sorry, trying to familiarize myself with what we said last month :)
<kyrofa> kenvandine, haha, me too
<kenvandine> elacheche, when is your next loco meeting?
<kenvandine> it says 2011 :)
<elacheche> kenvandine: We didn't had a loco meeting for a while now, as I said, we were too many active members, and all of the active guys become busy at the same exact period, so for the last couple of years we were at least only 3 to manage the community, and no one answered meetings calls, so the 3 people around managed to keep the community running :)
<gsilvapt> elacheche, but do you have more people today?
<elacheche> Our goal for the next few months is to get some fresh blood dudes involved more..
<kenvandine> elacheche, do you have ideas for achieving that?
<kyrofa> (note that verified locos are verified to _be_ active)
<nzoueidi> Yeah, we are involved in the FOSS events that held in Tunisia, so we have a nice list to contact and getting them involved into the community
<elacheche> me & nzoueidi are planning ways to make people more engaged with the community.. I think that I managed once to keep nzoueidi engaged and some other folks when they where free :D And we will manage to help young new people to be more active
<kyrofa> nzoueidi, do you have a timeline for accomplishing this?
<elacheche> kyrofa: As you can see from the wiki page, we had multiple events during the last 2 years, it's real that the quantity is less than before, but still, we are also enhancing quality of the events
<nzoueidi> No, I don't but I hope it is asap. I have friends that wanna involve. Keeping them as elacheche said is the hardest thing. But we are trying our best to boost the community :)
<kenvandine> i understand it's not easy
<elacheche> Unfortuantely, people are used to the FB way of things, post something and wait for immidiate answer/result.. A community need engagment, and time to give you results/answers.. So most people don't want to be engaged, we tried to target FB folks once, and get the mto contribute, ZERO result..
<kenvandine> :/
<nzoueidi> Exactly, that's what I was going to say
<elacheche> Other people are willing to contribute and make an engagement (moral).. And they don't expect immidiate results
<elacheche> BTW, I may be talking about Ubuntu Tunisia, but, afaik, that applies to ALL other LoCos, based on my discussions with other folks during the last 2 years
<kenvandine> elacheche, yeah, it's not an easy task
<kenvandine> elacheche, interesting numbers from facebook
<gsilvapt> Yes, getting new contributors is never an easy task in open source projects.
<kenvandine> 11410 members of the facebook group
<elacheche> kenvandine: Yep, most of them are "Read only" users unfortunately
<elacheche> Most of them are very shy to ask quesztions in the group and they prefer to come to you in private and ask rather than posting in the ML or FB :(
<kyrofa> Our main criticism last month was that supporting documentation seemed  to be pretty out of date. The last post on the team portal page was about 14.04, the latest "past event" I see on the wiki page is from 2008. We wanted to give you a few months to get that stuff into shape. You put yourself back on the agenda this month, although I don't feel like much has changed, honestly
<kenvandine> elacheche, i see some good numbers for the events too, on facebook
<kyrofa> Facebook is one area I cannot check, so I'll listen to kenvandine :)
<elacheche> kyrofa: I can explain that too x)
<kenvandine> the meetup in feb 2017 had 49 that attended
<kenvandine> not bad
<kyrofa> Pretty darn good, really
<kenvandine> yeah
<elacheche> kenvandine: Those the recorded numbers, multiple persons don't record that
<elacheche> We had events/workshops with more than that number!
<kenvandine> right, those are the ones that marked it in FB
<nzoueidi> kenvandine: sometimes you see that you have 100 participants of such an event on FB, but in reality you will find half of them
<kenvandine> you only had two like that in 2017 though
<kenvandine> but... i like that activity
<elacheche> During SFD 2016 we had 5 workshops, each had at least 20 persons
<gsilvapt> I gotta say I want to approve you guys but the fact you're running this on your own is not comforting although you guys actually do stuff
<gsilvapt> "on your own"
<kyrofa> elacheche, you mentioned you could explain the out-of-date information?
<elacheche> gsilvapt: If we weren't engaged to keep this LoCo running even when we will long gone we will not be here today, after being doing this for our own for years..
<elacheche> We believe that the next critical step is to "hire" new recruits, people with time and love to the community
<elacheche> and teach & mentor them on how to contribute
<elacheche> kyrofa: Yeah sure.. The whole 1st LoCo leaders were "very" demanding that they created too much wiki pages, the next team plan was to understand those pages then refactor them, but then, when it's time to refactor, everyone had an other new life to focus on.. So refactoring still a task to do so new folks can have easier wiki to understand and use
<elacheche> About the events, I still track each event in a wiki page, but I always find myself not able to update the main events page because of time
<elacheche> For the records, actually we have at least 290 Wiki pages
<kenvandine> wow
<kenvandine> that's a huge task
<nzoueidi> yep :')
<kenvandine> ok
<kenvandine> shall we vote?
<elacheche> And that's MY task, I engaged myself to do it when I have other people to take care of other important things!
<gsilvapt> elacheche, one of your priorities should be to actually delete/organise that :D
<kenvandine> nothing wrong with deleting wiki pages :)
<elacheche> gsilvapt: I know, but I need to recruit people first, so they can take care of other things like preparing the events etc..
<kyrofa> I think we have enough information to vote
<elacheche> kenvandine: We like to keep the loco legacy, so new commers know how much other commited to the loco!
<kenvandine> elacheche, understood
<elacheche> Ubuntu Tunisia is not just a community, it's a community that have history, and will have a future, that's I'm sure of :)
<kyrofa> #vote Ubuntu Tunisia Re-verification
<meetingology> Please vote on: Ubuntu Tunisia Re-verification
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<kenvandine> vote +1
<kenvandine> whoops
<kenvandine> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from kenvandine
<kyrofa> Heh
<kyrofa> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from kyrofa
<gsilvapt> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from gsilvapt
<gsilvapt> apologies for the delay
<kyrofa> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Ubuntu Tunisia Re-verification
<meetingology> Votes for:3 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<nzoueidi> Thanks you guys :)
<kenvandine> great
<kyrofa> Congratulations elacheche nzoueidi! This wasn't the easiest call, but I know how difficult it is to carry a community. Try to execute your plan, get your membership up, share the load
<kenvandine> anyone join from Myanmar Loco?
<elacheche> :D THANK YOU FOLKS! You have no idea how much happiness I feel right now.. This is a new checkpoint in our LoCo history
<wxl> good job elacheche, nzoueidi, et al :)
<kyrofa> elacheche, please try to clean up the wiki
<kenvandine> elacheche, time to get to work! :-D
<kenvandine> elacheche, and congrats!
<nzoueidi> We will kenvandine :D
<nzoueidi> Thanks again for all.
<kenvandine> elacheche, nzoueidi and of course thanks so much for showing up today to discuss this
<elacheche> Thanks wxl :) sure folks! :)
<nzoueidi> o/ nighty
<kyrofa> Alright, on to Myanmar
<elacheche> Thanks again, good night folks :)
<kyrofa> #topic MyanmarTeam Re-verification
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | LoCo Council Meeting, 20180108 | Current topic: MyanmarTeam Re-verification
<kyrofa> Night elacheche :)
<gsilvapt> thanks, elacheche and good luck
<kyrofa> Alright, it seems no one is here from Myanmar, even though they put themselves on the agenda a month sooner than they needed to. Let's go off of their application alone
<kyrofa> I still see no events in 2017
<kyrofa> I don't really see any changes at all from our previous meeting
<kenvandine> me either
<kenvandine> and again nobody joined the meeting
<kenvandine> they technically have another month
<kyrofa> But they put themselves on the agenda anyway
<kenvandine> true
<kyrofa> If I was voting right now, I'd be -1. However, they have until next month. They could technically put themselves back on then
<kyrofa> So perhaps we should just pretend it's not on the agenda, and if they don't follow though, they expire by default?
<gsilvapt> Did they do any changes?
<kyrofa> Doesn't look like it
<kenvandine> no edits to the wiki page at all
<gsilvapt> Hum, right
<kenvandine> i think we just skip it
<kyrofa> Yup
<gsilvapt> Should we vote or skip it?
<kenvandine> no point in voting yet
<kenvandine> status hasn't changed since last month
<gsilvapt> Hum, right
<kyrofa> #agreed We'll skip Myanmar's re-verification since the application hasn't been updated and they have another month
<kenvandine> +1 :)
<kyrofa> What. Come on meetingology
<kenvandine> that is a command!
<kyrofa> It worked?
<kenvandine> no
<kenvandine> i think it would have told us
<kenvandine> but it should work
<kyrofa> Yeah, it usually spams me
<kenvandine> i think the log should be a valid record :)
<kyrofa> #agree We'll skip Myanmar's re-verification since the application hasn't been updated and they have another month
<kyrofa> Darn
<kyrofa> Okay, clear enough
<kyrofa> That's all the items on our agenda for today, unless anyone has something else?
<kyrofa> I'll assume no
<kenvandine> +1
<kyrofa> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Jan  8 21:17:10 2018 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2018/ubuntu-meeting.2018-01-08-20.21.moin.txt
<kenvandine> great, thanks everyone!
<kyrofa> Back at you kenvandine!
<gsilvapt> kyrofa, kenvandine have you guys updated the minutes page?
<gsilvapt> I'm having troubles logging in the wiki to update it
#ubuntu-meeting 2018-01-11
<fginther> o/
<rbalint> o/
<philroche> \o
<Odd_Bloke> \o/
 * slangasek waves
<tribaal> \o/
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Jan 11 16:02:38 2018 UTC.  The chair is slangasek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Lightning round
<slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e slangasek bdmurray xnox tdaitx doko sil2100 rbalint infinity cyphermox mwhudson rcj philroche Odd_Bloke tribaal fginther juliank)
<slangasek> tribaal slangasek mwhudson bdmurray cyphermox rbalint philroche sil2100 doko juliank infinity Odd_Bloke fginther rcj tdaitx xnox
 * xnox win \o/
<tribaal> * CVE CVE CVE
<tribaal> * Tracked down a kubernetes test suite problem when run against linux 4.11+
<tribaal> (Done)
<Odd_Bloke> slangasek:
<slangasek>  * meltdown+spectre
<slangasek>  * preparing a 17.10.1 for LP: #1734147
<slangasek>  * announced the EOL of 17.04, which will not be getting the meltdown fixes
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1734147 in linux (Ubuntu Artful) "corrupted BIOS due to Intel SPI bug in kernel" [Critical,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1734147
<slangasek>  * prep for Cape Town sprint next week
<slangasek> (done)
<slangasek> bdmurray:
<bdmurray> SRU team work
<bdmurray> modifications to apport based off slangasek's feedback
<bdmurray> tested apport changing in dev ops Error Tracker (good)
<bdmurray> submitted RT re: staging ET update of apport (tested too)
<bdmurray> submitted RT re: production ET update of apport
<bdmurray> reviewed sil2100's m-o-m merge proposal
<bdmurray> irc discussion regarding sil2100's m-o-m merge proposal
<bdmurray> submitted RT re tearing down old stg-ue-error-tracker env
<bdmurray> further work on the mojo specification
<bdmurray> upgraded laptop to bionic
<bdmurray> bug triage of LP: #1512322 re: dpkg crash
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1512322 in dpkg (Ubuntu) "dpkg assert failure: dpkg: ../../src/packages.c:245: process_queue:" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1512322
<bdmurray> modified apport to have a --no-stacktrace-source option (stop ET from using apport PPA)
<bdmurray> modifications to daisy and its charm to support --no-stacktrace-source apport option
<bdmurray> submitted RT re update of code in the staging Error Tracker
<bdmurray> modified mojo spec to only build code if it doesn't exist locally
<bdmurray> investigation into ubuntu-release-upgrader bug LP: #1742147
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1742147 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu) "upgrade from 17.10 to 18.04 fails with triggers looping" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1742147
<bdmurray> submitted RT regarding deleting zesty core files from swift
<bdmurray> replied to dpkg maintainers regarding /usr/local/bin
<bdmurray> submitted RT regarding merge of mojo spec for the Error Tracker
<bdmurray> cyphermox:
<bdmurray> added in a cron job to retracer charm to remove EoL core files
<bdmurray> â done
<cyphermox> bionic:
<cyphermox> - pre-upload testing of new signed shim
<cyphermox> netplan:
<cyphermox> - ath9kl_sdio replug bugfix
<cyphermox> - backlog management
<cyphermox> - fixing doc ipv6/routing syntax
<cyphermox> - routing code improvements
<cyphermox> - triaging netplan bugs
<cyphermox> other stuff:
<cyphermox> - catching up after the holidays
<cyphermox> - cloud instance UEFI migration doc
<cyphermox> - prepare MIR process for snaps
<cyphermox> - review Deepin's shim
<cyphermox> (done)
<rbalint> * internal testbed setup
<rbalint> * pending upload:
<rbalint>   - gce-compute-image-packages update LP: #1741989
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1741989 in gce-compute-image-packages (Ubuntu) "Drop libpam-cracklib from gce-compute-image-packages Recommends" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1741989
<rbalint>   - unattended-upgrades LP: #1741579, #886803
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1741579 in Ubuntu Translations "Wrong/confuse text on shutdown at unattended-upgrades" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1741579
<rbalint>   - update-manager & ubuntu-release-upgrader #1732185
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 886803 in Odoo GTK Client (MOVED TO GITHUB) "load translation - runs long - needs feedback" [Undecided,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/886803
<rbalint>   - wireshark #886619
<gaughen> o/
<rbalint> (done)
<philroche> * Cloud boot speed testing
<philroche> * Meltdown CVE image release to clouds
<philroche> * Cloud image build system vanguard
<philroche> (done)
<doko> sil2100 is not here ...
<Odd_Bloke> No sil2100.
<doko> - the good thing about the current security mess is that the test rebuilds did finish ;-P
<doko> - filing GCC upstream issues from the GCC 8 test rebuild
<doko> - do the same for binutils
<doko> - look at retpoline security updates for GCC and binutils
<doko> - will be away next week, and the week after at LinuxConf Australia
<doko> (done)
<juliank> work start stuff / travel for sprint
<juliank> syncs / merges (5): fakeroot, dash, dput (wrote new sftp method), aptitude, debootstrap (sync, all merged now)
<juliank> sent multipath-tools 0.7.4 udev rules fixes to Debian, cannot merge yet due to some other breakage in multipathd
<juliank> uploaded ndiswrapper 1.60-6 to Debian so it can sync - kernel 4.15 build fixes (LP: #1737749)
<juliank> fixed a bug in apt (LP: #1742378)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1737749 in ndiswrapper (Ubuntu) "ndiswrapper 1.60-5 ADT test failure with linux 4.15.0-1.2" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1737749
<juliank> have to push dput changes upstream, and maybe ask multipath-tools upstream if they know what's going on there
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1742378 in apt (Ubuntu) "Slight glitch in /etc/cron.daily/apt-compat Ubuntu 16.04.3 in apt-1.2.24" [Low,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1742378
<juliank> (done)
<Odd_Bloke> No infinity.
<Odd_Bloke> - More CVE than your body has room for
<Odd_Bloke> - Prep for CPT sprint next week
<Odd_Bloke> (done)
<Odd_Bloke> fginther:
<fginther> * Small bit of cleanup of excessive jenkins builds
<fginther> * CVE-2017-5754 related image publication
<fginther>   - Clicking buttons and monitoring builds
<fginther>   - Responded to a couple partner questions
<ubottu> Systems with microprocessors utilizing speculative execution and indirect branch prediction may allow unauthorized disclosure of information to an attacker with local user access via a side-channel analysis of the data cache. (http://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvename.cgi?name=CVE-2017-5754)
<fginther> * Working on automated publication updates for a partner cloud
<fginther> * Testing of snap installs on WSL using the most recent Windows build
<fginther> * Small change to make progress on minimized builds
<fginther> (done)
<Odd_Bloke> rcj:
<rcj> * Meltdown cloud image publication work
<rcj> * Proposed kernel testing with GPUs
<rcj> (done)
<rcj> tdaitx:
<tdaitx> just back from vacations
<xnox> so me?
<xnox> * talking about bugs
<xnox> * merged gnupg2, doko
<xnox> * uploaded old partman-base merge, doko
<xnox> * created maas PoC merge proposal for subiquity (needs architectural changes)
<xnox> * synced (to drop ubuntu delta) e2fsprogs, psycopg2, doko
<xnox> * upgraded s390-tools to v2, yet to build
<xnox> * filed RT ticket about jenkins slaves <-> s390x connectivity issue
<cyphermox> yes
<xnox> * welcomed juliank
<xnox> * fixed up systemd upstream merge proposals, for moving resolved earlier in the boot & not failing on setting Nice setting
<xnox> * upgrading my desktop to bionic, it is time
<xnox> (done)
<tdaitx> and I was going to say I didn't wrote any status
<doko> xnox: did I pester you that much? ;p
<slangasek> any questions on status?
<bdmurray> nope
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Bugs
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Bugs
<bdmurray> As I mentioned bug 1742147 is rather new.
<ubottu> bug 1742147 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu) "upgrade from 17.10 to 18.04 fails with triggers looping" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1742147
<bdmurray> http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-bb-incoming-bug-tasks.html
<bdmurray> infinity was talking about it being related to bamfdaemon but I don't think he looked into it far enough to do anything
<slangasek> [LINK] http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-bb-incoming-bug-tasks.html#foundations-bugs
<rbalint> bdmurray: i was just about to upgrade, thanks!
<bdmurray> rbalint: the upgrade completed for me
<bdmurray> so does somebody want to take that bug?
<slangasek> personally, or on behalf of the team? :)
<slangasek> I think we should take it onto the backlog
<rbalint> slangasek: i guess we already own it as a team
<slangasek> rbalint: not yet, it's 'incoming' :)
<xnox> bdmurray, i'm yet to reach the triggers stage
<slangasek> I think we should take it
<xnox> still on setting packages up, and answering debconf prompts
<slangasek> (done)
<bdmurray> bug 1742301 is new too
<ubottu> bug 1742301 in software-properties (Ubuntu) "/usr/bin/software-properties-gtk:UnboundLocalError:show_drivers:gather_device_data" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1742301
<bdmurray> its possible that's Alberto's code
<slangasek> bdmurray: how hot is this crash on the tracker?
<bdmurray> slangasek: thousands of crashes for 16.04 but not many for current releases which I don't understand since the code is the same
<slangasek> ok. maybe related to changes to the properties of the packages in the archive as a result of SRUs
<slangasek> but you say "not many", which is not the same as "none", hmm
<bdmurray> slangasek: well 8 is close enough to none for me
<slangasek> bdmurray: could you leave it on our incoming list for now, but reach out to Alberto to see if he has time to work on it?
<bdmurray> slangasek: okay
<slangasek> then we can pick it up ourselves if he doesn't
<gaughen> bdmurray, cc me please when you reach out and his manager Alex
<slangasek> bdmurray: anything else on bugs?
<bdmurray> bug 1737445 the reporter can not recreate it and neither could I
<ubottu> bug 1737445 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu Bionic) "release upgrader doesn't re-enable updates after failure" [High,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1737445
<bdmurray> that's on rls-bb-tracking
<bdmurray> I wonder if we should drop it or test it harder.
<rbalint> I reopened LP: #1663157 because guest account is disabled by default but not fixed should we reprioritize it?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1663157 in lightdm (Ubuntu) "Guest session processes are not confined in 16.10 and newer releases" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1663157
<slangasek> I think I've probably encountered that issue before
<slangasek> but I'm not sure how high priority it should be
<slangasek> (re: 1737445)
<slangasek> it always requires manually recovery... otoh it's always a knock-on effect from some other serious bug
<slangasek> bdmurray: anyway, I don't have a clear reproducer for it, so that would take some work to figure out
<slangasek> would we want to put a card on the backlog for somebody to spike on tracing the code?
<bdmurray> that seems fine to me
<rbalint> how about creating autopkgtest test for ubuntu-release-upgrader similar to https://github.com/mvo5/unattended-upgrades/commit/b21f66510f212ad509363c26e8799b8564e9bd98 ?
<slangasek> ok
<slangasek> re: 1663157
<slangasek> rbalint: you've assigned it to yourself, so you're interested in diving in and fixing it?
<slangasek> I would appreciate having guest session back
<slangasek> so that sounds fine to me ;)
<rbalint> slangasek: i'm interested and worked on it but i wanted to double-check with you
<rbalint> slangasek: to take it back
<slangasek> rbalint: if you're asking me whether it fits in with Bionic plans architecturally, +1
<slangasek> rbalint: if you're asking whether it's a priority for you to work on it, I defer to gaughen ;)
<rbalint> slangasek: ok, we will sort this out :-)
<slangasek> alrighty, anything else on bugs?
<slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<slangasek> Anything else today?
<cyphermox> nothing from me.
<bdmurray> Monday is a US holiday but I'm not taking it.
<fginther> I'll take bdmurray's
<gaughen> I"m super done slangasek
<cyphermox> ah, well, tomorrow I'd go in the city to do testing on that Starbucks Arubanetworks DNS crap.
<slangasek> I am also not taking Monday, but I'll be taking a stack of swap days after the sprint
<cyphermox> (I'll still be normally reachable, unless I'm in a broken captive portal to test a fix)
<slangasek> so not back until the 25th
<slangasek> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Jan 11 16:44:47 2018 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2018/ubuntu-meeting.2018-01-11-16.02.moin.txt
<slangasek> thanks, all!
<cyphermox> thanks slangasek
<tdaitx> thanks!
<gaughen> thank you slangasek
#ubuntu-meeting 2018-01-12
<KingParrot> How does one configure libwxgtk-media2.8-0 (>= 2.8.12.1+dfsg2)?
<nacc> KingParrot: ... wrong channel?
<KingParrot> I am trying to install this into a ubuntu
<KingParrot> does ubuntu not use deb?
<nacc> KingParrot: this is the channel for meetings
<nacc> KingParrot: you want #ubuntu
#ubuntu-meeting 2018-01-13
<KingParrot> meetings about what?
<nacc> KingParrot: ... like for Ubuntu development teams, etc. Not a support channel.
<KingParrot> Is this a freemason Pharoah worship meeting?
<nacc> KingParrot: alright, you're a troll, have a nice day.
<KingParrot> I am currently in an other ubuntu chat that is sorta dead.
<nacc> KingParrot: you were told where to go for support.
<KingParrot> makes the ubuntu smile when it cryies
#ubuntu-meeting 2019-01-08
<cpaelzer> no sign of life?
<doko> cpaelzer: I missed it as well ...
#ubuntu-meeting 2019-01-10
<Haunted330> This channel is closed. You will have to leave.
<juliank> test debian bug 12345
<ubottu> Error: Debian bug 12345 could not be found
<sil2100> o/
<cyphermox> o/
<juliank> o/
 * vorlon waves
<waveform> hola
<vorlon> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Jan 10 16:02:16 2019 UTC.  The chair is vorlon. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<vorlon> [TOPIC] Lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Lightning round
<vorlon> $ echo $(shuf -e vorlon bdmurray xnox tdaitx doko sil2100 rbalint infinity cyphermox mwhudson juliank waveform)
<vorlon> rbalint mwhudson xnox infinity juliank cyphermox waveform doko tdaitx vorlon sil2100 bdmurray
<sil2100> Not sure if rbalint is still around
<rbalint> o/
<sil2100> Oh!
<rbalint> * update-excuses:
<rbalint>   - fixed hidden ABI breakage in imagemagick in disco
<rbalint>   - triaged and added hint for twisted
<rbalint> * verified unattended-upgrades srus
<rbalint> * partner work and other discussions
<rbalint> * delayed NMU-d imagemagick in Debian
<rbalint> * uploaded forked-daapd 26.4-1, wireshark 2.6.6-1, libnfs 3.0.0-1
<rbalint> * performed the libnfs transition in Debian and Ubuntu
<rbalint> * helped with resolving the imagemagick ABI breakage in Debian and asked for rebuilds in Debian and did them in Ubuntu
<rbalint> * updated and sru-d gce-compute-image-packages
<rbalint> * reported LP: #1811210
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1811210 in initramfs-tools (Ubuntu Bionic) "intramfs-tools 0.130ubuntu3.3 in bionic-security breaks netplan.io in -security or in release" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1811210
<rbalint> (done)
<bdmurray> no mwhudson or xnox
<bdmurray> don't see infinity so juliank is up
<juliank> * Some update_excuses triaging to get stuff migrated, especially gnutls28; also uploads for that (in below)
<juliank> * merged wpa, wget, lz4, amd64-microcode (still needs SRUs I think), packagekit, gnupg2, dnsmasq
<juliank> * fixed bugs in hddemux, gnupg2, mariadb-10.1 autopkgtests
<juliank> * prepared fix for mysql-5.7 autopkgtests, rbasak uploaded to sid and synced it
<juliank> * apt stuff:
<juliank>   - improved the apt-mark minimize-manual merge request
<juliank>   - sent an email to deity@l.d.o to move discussion of repo enable/disablement forward (-32768 pinning)
<juliank>   - sent an email to deity@l.d.o to discuss new versioning scheme / pkg-config compatibility
<juliank>   - (also look forward to a ~5% performance improvement on cache open on 2011+ x86 [sse4.2 crc32c cache hashing] I achieved for christmas :D)
<juliank>  * stuff forwarded to Debian:
<juliank>   - debian bug 918666: wine hardcodes /run/user/$UID directory (which I fixed in gnupg2 for the time being, not sure if /run/user/$UID is supposed to exist everywhere)
<juliank>   - debian bug 918608: hddemux: testsuite: Avoid failure when https_proxy is set
<ubottu> Debian bug 918666 in src:wine "wine hardcodes /run/user/$UID directory" [Normal,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/918666
<ubottu> Debian bug 918608 in hddemux "hddemux: testsuite: Avoid failure when https_proxy is set" [Normal,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/918608
<juliank>   - reason for debian bug 918722 - caused recent upstream debootstrap to fail to bootstrap ubuntu (that upload was then reverted)
<ubottu> Debian bug 918722 in debootstrap "debootstrap: says InRelease file expired" [Serious,Fixed] http://bugs.debian.org/918722
<juliank> (done)
<vorlon> cyphermox:
<cyphermox> [HIGHLIGHT] netplan.io is now in Debian; synced to Disco for now.
<cyphermox> paperwork:
<cyphermox> - shim-review: CPSD, todo today: ROSA, CentOS, SUSE, OS ALT.  send help^H^H^H^H^H^H
<cyphermox> - small fixes to DKMS doc
<cyphermox> - merging Debian netplan changes into upstream git tree
<doko> juliank: how are these implemented, ifunc?
<cyphermox> disco:
<cyphermox> - grub2: added breadcrumbs for grub-mkconfig (parsing which files when generating conf)
<cyphermox> - grub2: fixing up grub-check-signatures to compare against known keys in firmware
<juliank> doko: function multiversioning
<cyphermox> bionic, cosmic:
<cyphermox> - attempting to fix syslinux -- patch for gnu-efi 3.0.8 apparently needs update
<cyphermox>   but new patch FTBFS... annoying and hard to validate this SRU
<cyphermox> xenial:
<cyphermox> - verified shim-signed update to finish upgrade to shim 15
<cyphermox> - dkms + shim-signed to finish Secure Boot signing changes
<cyphermox> trusty:
<cyphermox> - updated grub2 patchset for UEFI Secure Boot
<cyphermox> - apply patches for chainloading issues
<cyphermox> - dkms + shim-signed to finish Secure Boot signing changes
<cyphermox> (â done)
<juliank> doko: one is defined with __attribute__((target("sse4.2")), one with __attribute__((target("default"))
<juliank> see https://salsa.debian.org/apt-team/apt/commit/37ae749b20485b6c8237d5b5a08cfdd58a2364e1
<juliank> and https://salsa.debian.org/apt-team/apt/commit/fb1c5167f1a69fc47ca8e741b86fab1ae7c08309 with a fix
<vorlon> waveform: hi, did anyone warn you about this?  any status you want to share?
<sil2100> I think I forgot to mention to waveform to prepare notes beforehand!
<tdaitx> besides drinking from the firehose
<vorlon> :)
<waveform> ahhh, that would've been ... erm ... useful :)
<vorlon> no worries
<vorlon> doko:
<doko> - finished the disco / disco-gcc9 test rebuilds
<doko> - start submitting compiler issues for GCC 9
<doko> - GCC 8 & 9 updates
<doko> - jpeg-turbo update to fix ftbfs
<doko> (done)
<waveform> anyway, irqbalance issue found in aarch64 rpi3 image, grabbed fix from upstream
<sil2100> waveform: sorry! Well, I was writing those by hand in real time in the past as well when I first joined the team
<cyphermox> \m/
<vorlon> tdaitx:
<cyphermox> that means I should go update my rpi3 now I guess
<tdaitx> A happy new year to you all! And warm welcome to waveform =)
<tdaitx> * openjdk security update
<tdaitx>   - openjdk 8 and 11 from oracle, openjdk 7 from icedtea update
<tdaitx>   - patch was made available during the holidays
<tdaitx> * openjdk-lts autopkgtest disk space issues
<tdaitx>   - cosmic have autopkgtest enabled but it is not cleaning up tests
<tdaitx>   - checking a fix for disco (which also enabled autopkgtests)
<sil2100> cyphermox: not yet! ;p
<tdaitx> Other:
<tdaitx> - classes by EOD today and again in two weeks (22-24th January)
<waveform> and built u-boot 2018.07-rc3 (working on 3b and 3b+)
<tdaitx> - apartment under renovation pushing me to work on odd hours sometimes, also need to run some errands every now and then, will notify on irc when something big is ahead
<tdaitx> (done)
<cyphermox> sil2100: ;.;
<sil2100> cyphermox: ...soon
<waveform> anyway, that's it from me - working on building images otherwise
<bdmurray> vorlon:
<vorlon>  * happy new year!
<vorlon>  * deep dive on fstrim support in scalingstack to debug a complaint from IS about autopkgtest instance disk usage
<vorlon>  * ubuntu-drivers,cloud-init design review
<vorlon>  * a little bit of transition wrangling
<vorlon>  * first Debian MU of pam in a while
<vorlon>  * prep for Cape Town Sprint
<vorlon>  * upcoming:
<vorlon>   * out tomorrow for travel to cape town; back Jan 28
<vorlon> (done)
<bdmurray> sil2100:
<sil2100> - Some kernel SRU reviews and releases
<sil2100> - SRU reviews and releases
<sil2100> - Giving Dave some work to do!
<sil2100> - core18 PR reviews for additional testing and making travis CI happy
<sil2100> - Verification of the ubuntu-image 1.6 SRU, bumping hints
<sil2100> - raspi3 'upstreaming':
<sil2100>   * Pushed flash-kernel changes to disco
<cyphermox> vorlon: oh, so I get to chair the meeting next week?
<sil2100>   * Filled in SRU bugs for flash-kernel and uploaded SRUs to cosmic and bionic
<sil2100>   * Fetched ubuntu-core's raspi3-firmware version and SRUed it to bionic
<sil2100>   * Checked Dave's u-boot packages based on the ubuntu-core's version
<sil2100>   * Enabled disco raspi3 builds on cdimage, added missing livecd-rootfs changes
<sil2100>   * Started working on enabling multiverse during raspi3 gadget tree builds
<sil2100> - Looked into the Bileto outage after code update (settings got wiped)
<sil2100>   * Bileto still not completely 'fixed', some issues with redirects still
<sil2100> - Reviewed Brian's quick-fix for sru-report
<sil2100> - Discussion regarding core18 beta->candidate test feedback fetching
<sil2100> (done)
<bdmurray> Why are we fixing bileto?
<cyphermox> huh, speaking of rpi3, is this still only for the rpi3 b+ or something? some newer rev of the hardware?
<bdmurray> This includes some stuff I did before the break
<sil2100> bdmurray: because people are using it
<vorlon> cyphermox: if you wish, and the week after too :)
<cyphermox> vorlon: zug zug
<bdmurray> sil2100: I thought we wanted to get rid of it
<bdmurray> tested and converted three daisy scripts from pycassa to python-cassandra
<bdmurray> submitted MP regarding mojo spec update for daisy code revno
<bdmurray> submitted RT regarding update of daisy code in production and testing cronjobs
<bdmurray> worked with webops regarding issues with daisy code update
<bdmurray> uploaded B,C fixes for software-properties-gtk crash LP: #1807373
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1807373 in software-properties (Ubuntu Cosmic) "/usr/bin/software-properties-gtk:AttributeError:on_driver_selection_changed" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1807373
<bdmurray> SRU verifications of LP: #1807373, LP: #1807043, LP: #1773637
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1807043 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu Bionic) "when rewriting sources.list ubuntu-release-upgrader doesn't check to see if new release is available" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1807043
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1773637 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu Cosmic) "Distribution upgrade to 18.04: used nvidia display driver is commented out" [Undecided,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1773637
<bdmurray> investigated and uploaded fix for nvidia driver upgrade issue LP: #1773637
<bdmurray> reported ubuntu-drivers-common bug LP: #1808874
<bdmurray> worked on, uploaded fixes for issues with apport autopkgtests in disco
<bdmurray> worked on migration for part of oopses.py from oopsrepository to python-cassandra
<bdmurray> modified daisy to use renamed oopsrepository module
<bdmurray> submitted RT re update of daisy and oopsrepository in production
<bdmurray> fixed another apport test issue due to usrmerge
<bdmurray> â done
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1808874 in ubuntu-drivers-common (Ubuntu) "nvidia-detector doesn't seem to detect nvidia" [Low,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1808874
<sil2100> bdmurray: there's no decision regarding that yet
<waveform> cyphermox, for the 3b and 3b+ (and allegedly 2b but I haven't tested that)
<waveform> but none of the single-core models
<sil2100> bdmurray: we're doing bare maintenance for now, so only fixing stuff when it breaks, but even then with not super high priority
<cyphermox> waveform: thanks; I'll have to check again which rev I have... if it's not the right one I'll repurpose for legacy gaming anyway
<cyphermox> waveform: I'll go add you to my meeting script now, too, I guess
<doko> tdaitx: is the 11 update already released? can't find a tag
<gaughen> sil2100, bdmurray we weren't doing any new work on bileto, but were keeping the lights on.
<tdaitx> doko: no, not yet released, comes from partner
<gaughen> but we had discussed that if at some point keeping the lights on got really hard, we would need to look at ending it
<bdmurray> gaughen: so the lights went off and we turned them back on?
<gaughen> bdmurray, we jiggled the switch
<vorlon> other questions over status?
<gaughen> cyphermox, did you push netplan.io to debian?
<bdmurray> no questions here
<cyphermox> negative, andrewsh did; he did put me up as uploader though
<gaughen> excellent
<cyphermox> I had caught up with him at Plumbers
<gaughen> vorlon, that's all for me.
<cyphermox> this is good.
<gaughen> it is good.
<vorlon> [TOPIC] Bugs
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Bugs
<vorlon> bdmurray: I wonder if we should talk valgrind
<gaughen> there are none.
<bdmurray> vorlon: I was thinking we sould
<bdmurray> should
<cyphermox> Zarro boogs found.
<vorlon> LP: #1808508
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1808508 in valgrind (Ubuntu) "Valgrind doesn't work in disco [Fatal error at startup: a function redirection which is mandatory for this platform-tool combination cannot be set up.]" [Critical,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1808508
<bdmurray> So that's keeping apport stuck in -proposed
<vorlon> and it's fundamentally not an apport or valgrind bug, it's a bug in the filesystem as a result of usrmerge
<vorlon> so I could probably see my way to a skiptest hint around apport currently, to unblock development
<vorlon> but this is important to fix for release
<bdmurray> vorlon: you also mentioned this would affect gdb too
<vorlon> yes
<doko> I hate the gdb debug symbols lookup code ...
<vorlon> so one question is, if gdb and valgrind are the only things that need it, should we just extend their debug symbol lookup paths
<vorlon> libunwind was suggested, but:
<vorlon> $ strings /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libunwind.so.8|grep usr/lib/debug
<vorlon> $
<vorlon> so no hits there
<vorlon> ah, and gdb actually uses /usr/lib/debug/.build-id
<vorlon> so maybe only valgrind needs changing
<juliank> vorlon: src/dwarf/Gfind_proc_info-lsb.c:      static const char *debugdir = "/usr/lib/debug";
<juliank> but maybe it's disabled
<doko> build id is used by debhelper v9 and above
<vorlon> so we might as well fix valgrind and then we can have a philosophical discussion later about whether /usr/lib/debug should be usrmerged
<juliank> I think I saw google-perftools broken once
<vorlon> juliank: libc6-dbg  has .build-id
<juliank> that was on my usrmerged debian system, though
<vorlon> so I think the common case is handled
<vorlon> alright, I think the quick path is to just fix valgrind
<vorlon> any volunteers?
<cyphermox> one other option might be to have the debug package generate the symlinks as needed?
<vorlon> cyphermox: please no :)
<cyphermox> oh, wait, no
<cyphermox> yeah, no
<cyphermox> ;)
<cyphermox> I'm happy to fix valgrind
<vorlon> cyphermox: assigning, thanks
<cyphermox> card?
<bdmurray> I can make a card for you buddy
<vorlon> :)
<bdmurray> tdaitx: Should there be a card for bug 1808383
<ubottu> bug 1808383 in ant (Ubuntu Disco) "Java 9+ multi-release jars are not supported in ant tasks" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1808383
<tdaitx> bdmurray: sure, I will create one for it
<bdmurray> tdaitx: cool
<bdmurray> that's it from me regarding bugs then
<vorlon> [TOPIC] 18.04.2
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: 18.04.2
<vorlon> specifically bugs for 18.04.2, so maybe a subtopic :)
<vorlon> do we have anything that we think should be fixed in point release but is not yet targeted?
<vorlon> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/bionic/ actually shows no bugs targeted to 18.04.2 at all
<vorlon> there are some subiquity cards targeted, which is understood
<bdmurray> maybe I should get this u-r-u SRU done before the point release
<juliank> My goal is to get bug 1787460 fixed
<ubottu> bug 1787460 in linux-meta-hwe (Ubuntu) "Unattended upgrades removed linux-image-generic" [Critical,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1787460
<juliank> the apt part of it
<juliank> feature bug 1811120 is also interesting, but could also wait
<vorlon> juliank: is that in a card?
<ubottu> bug 1811120 in apt (Ubuntu Cosmic) "Backport auth.conf.d" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1811120
<juliank> vorlon: it is
<vorlon> juliank: can you put the 18.04.2 tag on the card?
<juliank> vorlon: done
<vorlon> the card for LP: #1793671 is targeted to 18.04.2 but is marked blocked
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1793671 in ubiquity (Ubuntu Bionic) "Proprietary drivers are installed locally and not on the target system" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1793671
<sil2100> I think we need https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/livecd-rootfs/+bug/1805668 on the milestone
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1805668 in u-boot (Ubuntu Cosmic) "Building armhf and arm64 Raspberry Pi 3 images" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<waveform> gets my vote :)
<juliank> I'm untargeting "Make images not mark all task packages as manually installed" for 18.04.2
<vorlon> sil2100: agreed, milestone set
<juliank> because #ubuntu-devel just had some potentially related regressions
<vorlon> juliank: doh, ok
<juliank> (bug bug 1801629 fwiw)
<ubottu> bug 1801629 in xubuntu-meta (Ubuntu) "xubuntu-core needs to depend on cryptsetup and lvm2 or 'apt autoremove' will make a LUKS+LVM encrypted root partition non-bootable" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1801629
<juliank> Should import as a card
<vorlon> was https://bugs.launchpad.net/cryptsetup/+bug/1767527 mentioned already?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1767527 in cryptsetup (Ubuntu) "[18.04] Installation boot failure. WARNING: invalid line in /etc/crypttab" [Critical,In progress]
<vorlon> we have an 18.04.2-targeted card for that
<sil2100> vorlon: thanks!
<vorlon> cyphermox: ^^ that cryptsetup bug has a card in progress that lies somewhere between you and xnox
<vorlon> is it in progress from your POV?
<vorlon> my question on the bug in October was never answered; marking it incomplete for now
<vorlon> ok so anything else for 18.04.2?
<vorlon> targeted bug list is now: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/bionic/?field.milestone%3Alist=86800
<vorlon> going once...
<vorlon> twice...
<vorlon> [TOPIC] AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<doko> wait, before AOB ...
<doko> devel-proposed: https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/proposed-migration/update_excuses_by_team.html#foundations-bugs
<bdmurray> I'll be out tomorrow / swapping for some other holiday
<vorlon> right
<vorlon> apport already discussed
<doko> the only one we addressed is the valgrind one
<vorlon> anyone want to sort out autopkgtest/autodep8 regressing itself?
<doko> the other high profile one is ros-ros-comm
<doko> and systemd of course
<vorlon> doko: feel free to follow up out-of-band, but are the linux/binutils autopkgtest regressions ignorable?
<vorlon> ros-ros-comm looks like something that just needs a badtest hint rather than a regression we've caused
<vorlon> paramiko is also blocked by sahara test failures which might be more real
<doko> and foundations needs to file some MIRs: http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/component-mismatches-proposed.svg
<vorlon> I don't think we should try to go through all of the rest right now, we clearly have a backlog due to the break
<doko> that's fine, but then we should reserve some time next week
<vorlon> doko: uchardet?
<doko> yes, kronosnet, intel-ipset-*
<doko> mailutils?
<doko> maybe just a suggests
<vorlon> how are those foundations? the mouseover says server
<vorlon> emacs is desktop
<vorlon> ;P
<juliank> doko: I'm doing some autopkgtest stuff I could probably have a look at that
<doko> ohh, even better =)
<vorlon> anyway, someone want to volunteer please to open the MIR for uchardet?
<doko> ok, then I'll write uchardet myself
<vorlon> ok
<vorlon> and then we'll close the meeting
<vorlon> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Jan 10 16:57:24 2019 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2019/ubuntu-meeting.2019-01-10-16.02.moin.txt
<vorlon> thanks, all!
<tdaitx> thanks!
<juliank> doko: ross-ross-comm I also looked at, it's much better now than it was yesterday or so
<juliank> only i386 is left failing
<juliank> at least for lz4
<juliank> I think there were others
<juliank> ah no, I'm mixing them up
#ubuntu-meeting 2020-01-07
<joeubuntu> Hey All.
<doko> hi
<doko> cpaelzer, didrocks, jamespage, ...
<doko> cyphermox isn't anymore :-/
<jamespage> o/
<cpaelzer> o/
<cpaelzer> to state the obvious - nothing MIR-related from the server team this week worth to report
<doko> we have the networkx/python-networkx component mismatches
<joeubuntu> We wrapped up two MIRs yesterday and should have another one day by the end of week
<doko> ok, I'll look at those and promote
<cpaelzer> joeubuntu: I've seen GPSD was set to "in progress" again - do you know who is assigned?
<joeubuntu> cpaelzer it is amurray, planned to be done by the end of week,
<cpaelzer> \o/
<cpaelzer> good amurray, good eta :-)
<doko> anything else?
<joeubuntu>  I'm good.
<doko> ok, then see you next week
<doko> O/
<didrocks> sorry, I'm in a sprint in London, just read the backlog
#ubuntu-meeting 2020-01-09
<bdmurray> o/
<waveform> o/
<juliank> o/
<bdmurray> #startmeeting Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Jan  9 16:02:26 2020 UTC.  The chair is bdmurray. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic:
<bdmurray> #topic Lightning rounds
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: Lightning rounds
<bdmurray> vorlon sil2100 waveform doko bdmurray infinity mwhudson tdaitx cyphermox rbalint xnox juliank
<bdmurray> vorlon - you win!
<vorlon> hmm :)
<vorlon>  * happy new year!
<vorlon>  * landed zfs snapshot backend support in schroot (Debian bug #947919)
<vorlon>  * i386 follow-through:
<vorlon>    * uninstallables down to 14 on i386, and in progress https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/proposed-migration/focal_uninst.txt
<ubottu> Debian bug 947919 in schroot "schroot: Support for ZFS snapshotting" [Wishlist,Fixed] http://bugs.debian.org/947919
<vorlon>    * will be going through autopkgtest failures that are blocking new versions of i386 packages in -proposed
<vorlon>  * Discussions around /usr/bin/python in focal
<vorlon> (done)
<bdmurray> sil2100 is out
<bdmurray> waveform:
<xnox> nice
<waveform> * Tested Pi4 Bionic SRU on all available hardware; all packages work, still need to verify a "clean build" of the image
<waveform> * Tested bootscript with pi2 and pi3 variants of the u-boot script
<waveform> * Worked on test suite for pictl
<waveform> (done)
<bdmurray> waveform: what is pictl?
<bdmurray> doko:
<doko>  Removed all unversiond Python packages
<doko> - Now rebuilding everything which still depends on it and became uninstallable
<doko> - focal test rebuilds finished
<doko> - reproducing and forwarding GCC 10 issues from the test rebuild
<doko> - binutils update from the trunk
<doko> - GCC 9 / 10 updates
<doko> (done)
<bdmurray> bdmurray:
<bdmurray> oh that's me!
<bdmurray> sponsored flash-kernel, linux-firmware-raspi2, u-boot uploads to 18.04
<bdmurray> updated apport to send crash files to LP for focal
<bdmurray> overrode an update-notifier false positive for the phased-updater
<waveform> bdmurray, pictl is the pi configuration tool for manipulating the boot configuration
<bdmurray> SRU verification of mount bash-completion (LP: #1845529)
<bdmurray> reviewed apport MP re O_PATH (LP: #1851806) from tdaitx
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1845529 in Debian "bash completion shows `awk: line 18: function gensub never defined` on `umount /dev/<Tab>`" [Unknown,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1845529
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1851806 in apport (Ubuntu) "'module' object has no attribute 'O_PATH'" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1851806
<bdmurray> investigation into / discovered fix for release user graph lines not updating on errors.ubuntu.com
<bdmurray> infinity:
<infinity>  - Catching up on email after 3+ weeks out.
<infinity>  - Working through HR training that got resurrected.
<infinity>  - debhelper merge.
<infinity>  - Working on riscv64 bootstrap (in-archive build will be early Feb)
<infinity>  - Starting on glibc 2.31.
<infinity> (done)
<tdaitx> * apport O_PATH fix (LP: #1851806)
<tdaitx>   - review process, some extra fixes, committed to focal after approval
<tdaitx>   - applying reviewed changes to xenial, bionic, disco, eoan
<tdaitx> * jck-11
<tdaitx>   - saving test results as jenkins artifacts
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1851806 in apport (Ubuntu) "'module' object has no attribute 'O_PATH'" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1851806
<tdaitx>   - comparison between previous and current run
<tdaitx> Other:
<tdaitx> - finished pending trainings
<tdaitx> - getting my travel ticket fixed (issued under wrong name, previous agent is on vacation)
<tdaitx> - hatting these new super strict wifi firewalls (forced dns, no ssh, no vpn under any port/protocol)
<tdaitx> (done)
<bdmurray> oops no cyphermox
<bdmurray> rbalint is out
<bdmurray> xnox:
<xnox> 9th January:
<xnox> Uploaded nss & openssl using tlsv1.2 minimum
<xnox> Openssl sets SECLEVEL=2 as well, meaning RSA 2048bit keys minimum
<xnox> Fixing fallout from above, as debian doesnât enforce the above at build/test time
<xnox> Gnutls patches are proposed upstream and being reviewed
<xnox> Boost updates for various abi/i386 things, transition to 1.71 has not started yet
<xnox> Chasing cloggages in proposed-migrations here and there
<xnox> Cape town prep meetings
<xnox> done
<bdmurray> juliank:
<juliank> * Fixed apt's GTest discovery for 1.9, made it stop skipping tests silently if it can't find gtest
<juliank> * Fixed apt's unit tests
<juliank> * Fixed apt indirectly aborting() python-apt due to GIL/AcquireProgress interaction https://salsa.debian.org/apt-team/apt/commit/84176f6cde1fda522a3aad21d8238c7bd603da87
<juliank> * Improved APT cache generation speed by 10%: https://salsa.debian.org/apt-team/apt/merge_requests/92
<juliank> * WIP: Switching APT to libgcrypt, much faster, hw-accelerated SHA hashing and stuff https://salsa.debian.org/apt-team/apt/merge_requests/89
<juliank> Also I think I merged some merge requests in APT
<juliank> (done)
<bdmurray> #topic Release incoming bugs
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: Release incoming bugs
<bdmurray> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-ff-incoming-bug-tasks.html#foundations-bugs
<bdmurray> So some new bugs have been tagged rls-ff-incoming over the break
<bdmurray> bug 1856863 is assigned to jibel
<ubottu> bug 1856863 in ubiquity (Ubuntu Focal) "Ubiquity crashes when partitioning the disk with ZFS installation" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1856863
<bdmurray> Bug 1856993 was targetted but not untagged...
<ubottu> bug 1856993 in gcc-9 (Ubuntu Focal) "The focal-proposed gcc-9 version makes pocl build to fail" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1856993
<bdmurray> It's already in trello so untagging it.
<bdmurray> bug 1858013
<ubottu> bug 1858013 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "20.04 installer doesn't note power cable status on 'prepare to install' window" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1858013
<bdmurray> xnox: Would that be something more appropriate for the desktop team?
<xnox> bdmurray:  depends. one thing needs checking is
<xnox> if the battery indicator works correctly on that laptop; and generically i.e. power source present or not.
<xnox> cause it might be that laptop/kernel issue not detecting powercable present / charging
<xnox> or stuff in the installer page not being sensitive to it.
<bdmurray> ah, so boot the live cd and see what the battery status is?
<xnox> yeap, and if there is lightning icon when power plugged in, and no lightning when unplugged.
 * xnox comments on the bug
<bdmurray> thanks!
<bdmurray> okay, so we'll set that to incomplete and wait to see what happens
<bdmurray> xnox: is bug 1856424 something we should target to focal? It has a trello card already
<ubottu> bug 1856424 in grub2 (Ubuntu) "please add smbios module to the signed grub2 images" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1856424
<bdmurray> Since there is a trello card let's target it to Focal.
<bdmurray> #linux http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-ee-incoming-bug-tasks.html
<bdmurray> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-ee-incoming-bug-tasks.html
<bdmurray> nothing new there but bug 1856045 needs the rls-ee-incoming tag removed I'll fix that
<ubottu> bug 1856045 in libcap2 (Ubuntu Eoan) "capabilities set with setcap are not honoured" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1856045
<bdmurray> I still need to review this list for items to carry over for FF
<bdmurray> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-bb-incoming-bug-tasks.html
<bdmurray> Ah I thought bug 1856560 was familiar
<ubottu> bug 1856560 in util-linux (Ubuntu) "ds-identify - stuck in uninterruptible sleep state" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1856560
<bdmurray> xnox: Did you see the response there?
<bdmurray> Okay, xnox will follow up on that bug and close it out.
<bdmurray> #topic Team proposed-migration report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: Team proposed-migration report
<bdmurray> #link http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/proposed-migration/update_excuses_by_team.html#foundations-bugs
<bdmurray> vorlon: Do you want to help dole these out?
<juliank> python-apt:i386 needs the usual i386 handling
<vorlon> I suppose :)
<vorlon> who wants to look at netcat-openbsd?
<vorlon> juliank: what do you mean by "usual"?
<juliank> vorlon: I forgot the name, but it's not installalbe anymore
<vorlon> juliank: if it's never going to be installable for cross-tests (because python, probably?), then it should be permanently blacklisted
<juliank> it should be
<vorlon> ok, I'll update that after we dole out the packages
<vorlon> netcat-openbsd
<waveform> vorlon, the netcat-openbsd one was simply a postgres 11 v 12 issue IIRC, probably just needs re-running
<vorlon> ok, I'll take that one for rerunning (waveform, do you have access to trigger autopkgtests?)
<vorlon> automake-1.16
<waveform> no I don't think I do (or at least last time I tried I didn't)
<bdmurray> automake is me
<vorlon> ok
<vorlon> openjdk-lts
<vorlon> tdaitx: are we going to make the openjdk autopkgtests work on i386?
<doko> openjdk-lts: we should keep that, it provides the client VM, which the amd64 package doesn't provide
<vorlon> yes, but are you going to fix the autopkgtests to be cross-runnable
<vorlon> is this tdaitx or doko to follow through on?
<tdaitx> hmm, for i386 autopkgtests it depends on how much effort it takes, I haven't looked in what is needed
<vorlon> ok, it's yours to investigate
<vorlon> python-geoip: blocked because it makes python-torctl uninstallable, so this needs python2 removal work
<tdaitx> alright
<vorlon> waveform: do you want python-geoip?
<waveform> vorlon, okay, I'll take that
<vorlon> paramiko looks like it might just need an autopkgtest retry
<vorlon> I'm taking that one
<vorlon> python-colorama, more python2 revdeps that need cleaned up
<vorlon> xnox: you can have python-colorama
<vorlon> python-future, ftbfs
<xnox> vorlon:  yeah
<vorlon> doko: can you take that one?
<doko> vorlon: yes, in progress
<vorlon> sphinx-rtd-theme, looks like a flaky autopkgtest, I'll chase that
<vorlon> python-apt, already sorted per juliank
<vorlon> python3.7: i386 autopkgtests
<doko> just ignore?
<vorlon> doko: ^^ I guess that's never going to be cross-installable so we should permanently ignore?
<doko> same as python3.8
<vorlon> ok, I'll sort those
<vorlon> fribidi
<vorlon> who doesn't have one yet?
<vorlon> looks like everyone has at least one
<vorlon> waveform: you can have fribidi also
<waveform> vorlon, ta
<doko> hmm, we have a seldom guest this meeting ;p
<vorlon> infinity: and you can have netbase
<vorlon> libpipeline is i386 autopkgtest, I'll take that
<infinity> vorlon: I love netboase.  I'm going to squeeze it and hug it and name it Steve.
<vorlon> python-click is related to colorama
<vorlon> xnox: so you get python-colorama + python-click
<vorlon> libedit, bunch of failing revdep autopkgtests
<vorlon> juliank: ^^ can you take?
<juliank> I guess so
<vorlon> doko: gcc-9 autopkgtests, linux on all archs and gcc-9/i386; can you drive this?
<doko> vorlon: please ignore i386 autopkg tests, the linux failures are addressed, needs kernel fixing
<vorlon> libregexp-pattern-license-perl needs a promotion/MIR of libre-engine-re2-perl
<doko> I can write that MIR
<vorlon> doko: let's talk in more detail after the meeting about what kind of hint to use for gcc-9/i386
<vorlon> doko: I was going to give libre-engine-re2-perl to infinity, he likes those
<vorlon> whoever takes libregexp-pattern-license-perl should also take licensecheck
<doko> fine with me
<vorlon> and that's the list
<vorlon> bdmurray:
<doko> to have infinity look at it
<bdmurray> vorlon: thanks!
<infinity> vorlon, doko: Check, I'll handle the perly bits.
<doko> tdaitx: could you look at openjdk-8/armhf autopkg tests?
<bdmurray> #topic AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: AOB
<bdmurray> Anything else?
<doko> yes
<doko> https://people.canonical.com/~doko/ftbfs-report/test-rebuild-20191220-focal-focal.html
<doko> any volunteer to file bug reports for main?
<doko> http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/ftbfs/
<bdmurray> The qa.ubuntuwire.com link is pointing to disco
<bdmurray> doko will chase that down
<doko> I was volunteered :-(
<doko> and one more thing:
<doko> https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/proposed-migration/update_output_notest.txt
<doko> please look up the first occurance of python-defaults
<doko> these are the packages which need removal or fixing. can I get some help on those?
<bdmurray> doko: you mean the stuff after "armhf: "?
<vorlon> fwiw I went through https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/proposed-migration/focal/rcbuggy-problem-packages.html yesterday and removed a bunch of packages that were failing autopkgtests for python-defaults and removed from testing
<doko> \o/
<bdmurray> vorlon: so is the notest.txt file up to date / does it reflect your work?
<vorlon> bdmurray: yes
<bdmurray> doko: Okay, thanks for bringing those reports / work up.
<bdmurray> Anything else?
<infinity> Can we agree, as a team, that 9 days into 2020, we're now past the point of no return, and it's inappropriate to make hindsight-related jokes in any communication forum past, present, or currently unimagined?
<bdmurray> Okay, thanks everybody!
<bdmurray> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Jan  9 16:59:36 2020 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2020/ubuntu-meeting.2020-01-09-16.02.moin.txt
