#ubuntu-doc 2005-09-05
<Burglaptop> hmm, where is mdke and jerome?
<Burglaptop> Burgundavia, hey corey, this is corey at Ckhyamoj's place!
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-doc:irc.freenode.net] :  Ubuntu Doc Team - general discussion - backlog at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs | Projects on http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamProjects | This channel tries to follow the tradition of the #gnome-love channel on irc.gimp.net, all new comers and questions are welcomed, as long as you follow the Ubuntu community code of conduct @ http://www.ubuntulinux.org/community/conduct first.
<klepas> moin moin
<Madpilot> hi klepas
<klepas> hey
<klepas> any documentation that needs help with?
<Madpilot> you can always have a go at the wiki
<Madpilot> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CategoryCleanup  <-- not a bad place to start
<klepas> sure
<rob^> klepas, do you know docbook?
<Madpilot> pick something you know a bit about, and improve the pages about it...
<klepas> rob^: not as of yet, but I've bookmarked the pages about it
<rob^> ah
<klepas> I'll plan to read them on the weekend
<rob^> well like Madpilot said, there is heaps to do on the wiki
<rob^> minimal learning curve
<klepas> yup
<klepas> thanks folks
<klepas> I've got dinner and some studying to do
<klepas> cheers
<rob^> have fun
<klepas> :-)
<klepas> :-)
<Madpilot> later, all - need sleep...
<rob^> cya
<jjesse> morning
<ndazza> evening :)
<jsgotangco> hey jjesse
<jjesse> grin evening ndazza 
<jjesse> hello jsgotangco 
<jjesse> how are both of you?
<ndazza> tired
<ndazza> sleepy
<ndazza> sick of study!
<jsgotangco> i just spoke to 140 students
<jjesse> wow i just started work :)
<ndazza> jsgotangco: about?
<jsgotangco> i just arrived home and testing out what kids have been using
<jsgotangco> ndazza: FOSS in general
<ndazza> jsgotangco: ahh
<ndazza> i'm doing that in 2 weeks time
<jsgotangco> if you're doing it with a complete newbie audience show them the OpenCD
<jsgotangco> jjesse: did you make changes to About Kubuntu?
<jsgotangco> i can make them later if you're loaded
<jjesse> i made some
<jsgotangco> i'm getting kubuntu is adept really in?
<ndazza> jsgotangco: audience is the general public, probably a lot of uni students. we have open cds by the hundreds :)
<jsgotangco> ndazza: SFD?
<jjesse> i need to follow up w/ riddell i sent him an email, he wrote back saying he needed to test it but it would be going in if he okay it during his test
<jjesse> following up today w/ him as i hadn't heard back
<jsgotangco> he's quite a busy guy actually
<ndazza> jsgotangco: yep
<jsgotangco> (quite silent as well)
<ndazza> how big is the ubuntu repo? web site says about 75GB is that right?
<ndazza> main+universe
<ndazza> i wanna know if i'm gonna run out of disk space...
<jjesse> you downloading all of it?
<jsgotangco> are you making a mirror?
<ndazza> yes
<ndazza> 41GB done
<ndazza> my poor ISP must hate me...
<jsgotangco> poor ISP?
<jsgotangco> i wouldn't even attempt that
<jsgotangco> i guess you don't have a cap
<ndazza> i get uncapped downloads from certain servers
<ndazza> unmetered rather
<jsgotangco> mgalvin!
<mgalvin> hey jsgotangco!
<mgalvin> hows it going
<jsgotangco> im fixing up some docs in time for preview release (at least some)
<jsgotangco> will you be able to help on packaging?
<mgalvin> i should still be able to, i have just been busy with work the past week or 2
<jsgotangco> alright...freeze is upon is in a few days..
<mgalvin> right, i will make sure i make time for it
<jsgotangco> thanks i will start cleaning up the documents that should go in later
<jsgotangco> brb lemme switch this first
<jbailey> mgalvin: ping?
<mgalvin> jbailey: pong
<mgalvin> jbailey: argh, i've got to sit in on a meeting, i'll ping you when i get back
<jbailey> mgalvin: No worries.  I want to sync up with you about the docteam upload.
<jbailey> Jerome said that he thinks that you did a package that might be usable.
<jsgotangco> jjesse: so we have adept awesome
<jbailey> jsgotangco: Hey.  I think you're the other person I need to find. =)
<jsgotangco> jbailey: hey yes i was a about to ping you
<jbailey> =)
<jsgotangco> are we set?
<jbailey> I pinged mgalvin earlier, but he's ina meeting.
<jbailey> I don't have information on the SVN and such, so I need help getting started.
<jsgotangco> no worries i can fill him up its almost 12am here
<jbailey> Ah.  Where are you guys
<jsgotangco> im in manila
<jsgotangco> hmm where is that wiki page
<jsgotangco> hold on
<jsgotangco>  svn checkout https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/trunk ubuntu-doc
<jsgotangco> but its around 200MB at the moment
* jsgotangco makes a mental note to clean this up after freeze
<jbailey> Fetching
<jbailey> Gotit, lovely.
<jbailey> So, erm.  This gets packaged up? =)
<jsgotangco> well not everything
<jsgotangco> mgalvin did test some packaging on this 
<jsgotangco> let me check my archive hold on
<jbailey> Tx.
<jsgotangco> gnome/aboutubuntu/C/about-ubuntu.xml is the one i updated a few hours ago
<jsgotangco> but i haven't updated the OMF files for scrollkeeper i have no idea at tho moment how that works
<jsgotangco> but the team had agreed before to ship the documents in html
<jbailey> But should they be generated in SVN or at the time the source package is built?
<jbailey> I'd be inclined to do it at build time to minimize the hassle of remembering to do it in SVN.
<jbailey> But I have a personal dislike of keeping generated files in SVN.
<jsgotangco> no if i remember it right, when i was just translating before in hoary i had to do the omf myself
<jsgotangco> i actually have no clue at the moment on our best recourse on this matter :(
<jsgotangco> this release is quite disastrous for us imo
<jbailey> Is there an existing documentation package for Hoary that I can model on?
<jbailey> I can totally take care of all of the packaging issues if youhave stuff for me. =)
<jsgotangco> what do we need exactly aside from the actual written documents?
<jsgotangco> i have no idea..i wasnt involved in the packaging in hoary before..
<jbailey> I don't know.  silbs mentioned an about page, but I was hoping that you could tell me what that meant. =)
<jbailey> I can ping her or mdz on it if we need.
<jbailey> Right, I had heard that there had been a turnover in the documentation team.
<jsgotangco> well the about page is on gnome/aboutubuntu/C
<jbailey> Ah, it's a glade replacement?
<jsgotangco> well there is really not that much of a team to speak of :(
<jsgotangco> all the major xml docs are readable in yelp
<jbailey> jsgotangco: Are you around for a little bit?
<jbailey> I need to go get food and such.
<jsgotangco> sure
<jsgotangco> i'll probably need to sleep in an hour or so
<jbailey> 'kay.  If you're asleep when I get back, when are you back online?
<jbailey> I can adapt to whatever you need.
<jsgotangco> what timezone are you in?
<jbailey> Eastern Canada (-0400)
<jsgotangco> lemme check
<jsgotangco> im in +8 im sure we'll cross paths
<jbailey> Well, with feature freeze being tomorrow, I'm willing to hop around to make it work.
<jbailey> I'll try to put together a package or somethig in the meantime.
<jsgotangco> okay sorry for the short notice i was surprised myself by silbs' email
<jbailey> It's all good. =)  I 'll do whatever it takes to make this work.
<jbailey> So let me know how I can best help you.  I just forgot to eat breakfast this morning so I'm getting spacy. =)
<jsgotangco> thanks i'll dig around first and see how things were done then
<jsgotangco> ill also ask enrico if he's not busy
<jbailey> Cool.  Anything else before I go get food?
<jsgotangco> enrico: you around?
<jsgotangco> jbailey: nope, go grab your food
<jsgotangco> :)
<jbailey> thanks. =)
<enrico> jsgotangco: I'm actually going away.  Could you try again tomorrow?
<jsgotangco> enrico: ok or i'll just email thanks
<enrico> jsgotangco: ok.
* enrico leaves.
<jsgotangco> jbailey: i'll email later i gotta sleep. ciao
<mgalvin> jbailey: ping
<jbailey> mgalvin: Heya.  Done your meeting?
<mgalvin> jbailey: and lunch :)
<mgalvin> whats up
<jbailey> jsgotangco said that you had already done some packaging work for the docteam.  silbs has emailed us asking that it be in for Preview Freeze in the next day or so.
<jbailey> So I'm trying to start from whatever exists now and get it into the archive.
<mgalvin> ok, are you aware that it was decided a while that we were are going to ship html not xml?
<mgalvin> i don't know how this will affect yelp yet
<mgalvin> i know it points to the xml files, which will not be there anymore
<jbailey> Right, but I don't quite know what 'ship' means in this context.
<jbailey> Are you planning on keeping the generated HTML files in the svn?  Do I generate those at package build time?
<mgalvin> when the package is build the docbook xml is translated to html and the html is the only thing in the package
<mgalvin> not in svn or anything, the build process does the translation
<jbailey> Right, so that sounds simple enough.
<mgalvin> yup, have you been able to get the current pkg to build?
<mgalvin> its not quite standard b/c some of the docs (the faqguide) does not live in what would be a normal place
<jbailey> mgalvin: I just did the checkout a little bit ago.
<jbailey> So far I didn't see a debian/ directory.  Is the package buried in this checkout somewhere?
<jbailey> =)
<mgalvin> jbailey: its inside the gnome dir
<mgalvin> b/c there is also the kde package which is inside kde
<jbailey> Ah, okay, the docs are per brnading  then?
<mgalvin> yes, and some docs are profiled so that when they get built the automagically know to say "Ubuntu" or "Kubuntu" etc...
<jbailey> Evil.
<jbailey> Doing that in a way that translates well must suck.
<mgalvin> right now its really only the faqguide so its not to bad since most of it is common to both, but yea, it can be a little wierd at times
* jbailey does a build
<jbailey> mgalvin: What all do you think is left to do then?  Anything I can help with?
<jbailey> Wow, this is a noisy build.
<mgalvin> well i had gone through and cleaned up the debian/ stuff to make it work the way we need... i think what we need to make sure the other apps like yelp, firefox and such know where the docs are for display
<mgalvin> or to make sure we put docs where those apps expect them to be
<mgalvin> plus, we need the package uploaded, i don't have upload privs
<jbailey> Cool, that's easy enough.  Do you have a list of the apps that we should care about?
<jbailey> I can do the package upload.
<mgalvin> cool
<jbailey> If you're happy with where the gnome/ and kde/ packages are, I'll upload them now to get them through NEW.
<mgalvin> i don't have a comprehensive list yet, i could put one together, but off the top of my head, its a least yelp firefox and epihany
<jbailey> 'k.  But you're otherwise happy with it?
<mgalvin> I am pretty happy with the packages as they stand now, but i know yelp will not know where to find the docs... i just don't want to break anything ;)
<jbailey> I'd like to get it through NEW if I could, we can tweak it up a bit later.  I can also do any fine adustments for locations and keeping FF/ and ephy happy.  I don't know yelp, but I'm sure I could figure it out.
<jbailey> This might come under my BrandingForDerivative hat anyway, so  should probably know this. =0
<mgalvin> go ahead an upload :)
<mgalvin> jbailey: just let me know if there is anything else you need
<jbailey> mgalvin: Will do, /me goes to look at the compile
<mgalvin> bbl
<ajmitch> oh good, you recruited jbailey to help out :)
<jbailey> ajmitch: =)
<jbailey> ajmitch: It's all good. I told lifeless that he should talk to you about mentoring him as a MOTU. =)
#ubuntu-doc 2005-09-06
<ajmitch> jbailey: yeah, he was in the channel a day or two ago
<ajmitch> he doesn't need much mentoring, though
<jbailey> Right, he made it through being a DD, so it shouldn't be much.'
<mgalvin> hi all
<jbailey> Heya
<rmflagg> Does anyone know what could have happened when the "Default" or "Last" setting in GDM no longer functions?  GDM also no longer asks me if I want to change my default setting.
<Burgundavia> are the planet.gnome rss feeds down for anyone else?
<Burgundavia> how the hell do I commit to our svn server again?
<jbailey> The Ubuntu-docs builds fine and appears to be reasonably correct.
<jbailey> The kde directory doesn't build at all.  I'm getting XML errors, and there's two trivial bugs in the rules file.
<jbailey> Right now, it's doing a make -C kde/, which isn't needed.
<jbailey> By policy you have to be starting in the kde directory.
<Burgundavia> hmm
<Burgundavia> our main kde person has apparently jumped ship (Sean Wheller)
<jbailey> I can spend tomorrow doing cleanup work on it.
<Burgundavia> that would be great
<jbailey> But it would probably help if I had commit rights to the repository.
<jbailey> How do I arrange that?
<Burgundavia> talk to elmo
<Burgundavia> I have no objections, and I doubt anyone else would
<jbailey> Who's the team load for the docteam?  It would help to at least cc: the person on the email to elmo.
<Burgundavia> we don't relaly have one
<jbailey> But I'll upload ubuntu-docs in a moment, and clean it up during preview freeze so that everything looks at it right.
<jbailey> Fair enough.
<Burgundavia> cool
<Burgundavia> can you do the yelp hacking as well?
<jbailey> Yeah.
<rob^> Burgundavia, when did sean leave?
<Burgundavia> rob^, there is a post to the list
<Burgundavia> he comes and gos
* rob^ checks mail
<Burgundavia> rob^, a while back
<rob^> just got in from work
<rob^> back when he was going on about that open learning thing?
<Burgundavia> earlier
<rob^> must of missed it
<rob^> did you know he wrote a book about Ubuntu recently?
<Burgundavia> yes, I got the Toc for review
<rob^> yeah same
<Burgundavia> very much a Sean doc
<Burgundavia> lots of verbage
<rob^> yeah
* Burgundavia hates excessive verbage
<rob^> it was very long, I thought they had sent me a copy of the actual book when I first opened it
<jbailey> I've sent the request to elmo now.
<rob^> jbailey, do you have elmos email address? I need to get a new password for svn
<jbailey> james.troup@canonical.com
<rob^> thanks
<jbailey> Oh, I see.  This doc package will have to be done tomorrow.  mgavin's made an assumption about it being possible to have a deep debian/ directory which isn't strictly doable.
<jeffsch> rob^: ping
<rob^> jeffsch, pong
<rob^> whats up?
<jeffsch> i was just looking at the faq guide...
<jeffsch> it has profiles for os="kde"
<rob^> yes, some
<rob^> brb
<jeffsch> but do we actually produce a kde version?
<rob^> no, not for breezy
<rob^> the plan is to do a kde version, I have started some work on it but haven't had time to do heaps
<rob^> I mean, you could, but it would mainly only be about gnome apps
<rob^> at the moment
<jeffsch> ok good. I'll ignore the kde stuff then.
<rob^> yeah ok :)
<rob^> making the package I take it?
<jeffsch> i just made some big changes to getting-started.xml. Can you take a look at it?
<rob^> ok 
<jeffsch> rob^: no. not making any packages. just reviewing.
<rob^> ok
<jeffsch> i also wanna ask about question 1.5 on it. It says to use GnomeBaker instead of Nautilus.
<rob^> I was going for more a dedicated app rather then nautilus
<rob^> its what I use, but either way would suffice
<Burgundavia> if you have an iso, right-clicking works
<Burgundavia> as gnome-baker needs to be installed
<jeffsch> ah. Maybe add Nautilus as an additional method
<Burgundavia> umm, there is no need for gnomebaker
<rob^> your talking about How do I burn the ISO onto a CD-R(W)?
<Burgundavia> yes
<rob^> yeah, the nautilus way would be easier for that
<jeffsch> ok. i will change it.
<rob^> ok np
<jeffsch> i also changed the style of the question, from "how to..." to "how do I..."
<jeffsch> if there is any reason to keep, "how to..." then i can change it back
<Burgundavia> there are a lot of How to
<rob^> most of that was a hang over from ubuntuguide
<Burgundavia> maybe a general search replace for them might be good
<rob^> yep
<jeffsch> some are "how do I" and some are "How can I..."
<Burgundavia> hardware 5 (palmos devices) is completely wrong
<rob^> I dont own a palm so I couldnt check that
<Burgundavia> I do, will check it with my laptop
<rob^> ok thanks
<jeffsch> Burgundavia: you will fix it then?
<Burgundavia> do we not have a section for the ATI drivers?
<Burgundavia> jeffsch, yes
<rob^> ditto
<Burgundavia> hmm, maybe the first item on user admin should not be "how to enable root account"
<rob^> heh
<rob^> it is a FAQ though
<Burgundavia> we are also promoting Ubuntu Best Practices, which is sudo
<Burgundavia> rob^, the sound stuff needs to extensively overhauled
<Burgundavia> because esd has undergone some major changes in Breezy
<rob^> yes, its changed a bit now
<Burgundavia> I have the latest right now
<rob^> but they have only been recent
<Burgundavia> the dmix stuff? that is a least a month old
<rob^> I have been going nuts tracking all the changes lately
<jeffsch> Burgundavia: you can fix that stuff too then
<Burgundavia> ahh
<Burgundavia> rob^, to answer my previous question, is there an ATI section?
<rob^> not currently
<Burgundavia> hmm
<Burgundavia> BinaryDriverHowto/ATI is pretty good
<Burgundavia> rob^, do you want me to tell you the changes or just make them?
<rob^> go ahead
<Madpilot> dumb newbie-to-SVN question: once all that stuff is on my computer, I can just open the files normally, right? the tutorial isn't totally clear to me...
<rob^> I just sent some diffs in, dam my svn account
<jeffsch> Madpilot: yep. just open and modify in place.
<Madpilot> OK, thanks
<Burgundavia> jeffsch, you want to apply those patches?
<jeffsch> rob^: you can't remember your password? It should be in the email elmo sent you
<jeffsch> Burgundavia: ok
<rob^> yes, its encrypted with my gpg key which I no longer have
<jeffsch> :(
<rob^> tell me about it
<rob^> thats why you haven't seen much work from me in the last week or so
<Burgundavia> rob^, why do the DVD stuff point at RestrictedFormats>
<Burgundavia> ?
<rob^> after some advice I got from mdke and others it was recommended that we point users to the wiki when it comes to things like this
<Burgundavia> ok
<Burgundavia> fair enough
<rob^> due to the legal issues with using/distributing libdvdcss2
<rob^> covering our asses mainly
<rob^> same with w32codecs and libdivx4linux
<ajmitch> even that is dubious, I heard
<Burgundavia> hmm
<Burgundavia> I am thinking we should just kill this section on sound
<Burgundavia> because dmix replaces all of it
<rob^> now that it has been fixed up, I agree
<Burgundavia> the only thing we should keep is the flash one
<Burgundavia> sudo ln -fs /usr/lib/libesd.so.0 /usr/lib/libesd.so.1
<Burgundavia> that one
<rob^> hmm scorched3d still has dependencies problems
<Burgundavia> so, any objections to renaming 
<Burgundavia> "How to configure sound to work properly in GNOME?" to "How do I get sound working with Flash?" and removing all but that section?
<rob^> no, go ahead
<ajmitch> rob^: oh? motu bug then
<rob^> libwxgtk2.4 (>= 2.4.2.6ubuntu1) but it is not installable
<Madpilot> Scorched3d better be workign in Breezy - it's the only reason I need a 3d card... ;)
<ajmitch> rob^: right, I'll fix that up when I get home
<rob^> yeah, I added it to the game section in the FAQ Guide..
<rob^> ajmitch, ok thanks
<ajmitch> it looks to be fixed, but the fix failed to build :)
<rob^> hah
<rob^> remove clipboard and smeg, yep I was going to do that myself
<Burgundavia> hmm
<Burgundavia> is there a &smeg for the smeg menu item?
<Burgundavia> rob^, ^
<rob^> Applications -> System Tools -> Smeg Menu Editor
<rob^> heh, you mean in the .xml
<Burgundavia> ya
<rob^> if it isn't in there, then most likely no
<rob^> matt went through and did them
<Burgundavia> where do I add them?
<rob^> gnome/menus/C
<Burgundavia> hmm, so I added smeg.xml
<Burgundavia> but it still is spitting errors out at me
<rob^> just do something like <para os="gnome"> &smeg; </para>
<rob^> I think you may need to include it at the beginning of faqguide.xml
<Burgundavia> nope, need to edit gnome-menus.ent
<rob^> oh, sorry you need to edit gnome/libs/gnome-menus-C.ent
<rob^> ah yeah
<Madpilot> For XHTML docs, should I be using "charset=UTF-8" instead of "charset=ISO-8859-1"?
<rob^> which would include it
<Burgundavia> ah
<Burgundavia> there is arlready something
<rob^> Madpilot, yep
<Burgundavia> &menu-editor
<Madpilot> rob^: thanks
<rob^> ah
<rob^> <?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
<rob^> bbs
<Burgundavia> tips and tricks 6 and 7
<Burgundavia> killall nautilus and gnome-panel
<Burgundavia> these are horrible hackish solutions we shouldn't promote
<Madpilot> but sometimes needed, no? esp. when adding things to the panels?
<Burgundavia> no
<Burgundavia> gamin now works
<Madpilot> rob^: this is actually an XHTML doc still, not XML - I'm going to leave converting it to full XML to someone who knows XML...
<Burgundavia> and killing gnome-panel causes all kinds of joy
<Madpilot> but it's now fully w3c-compliant XHMLT 1.0 Transitional, FWIW...
<Burgundavia> which?
<Burgundavia> tips and tricks 20 (synaptic is quite redundant)
<Madpilot> Burgundavia: the Quick Tour - I've been finishing the code for it off
<Burgundavia> cool
<Madpilot> adding DocTypes and all the good stuff we left off when we first hacked it together
<rob^> back
<rob^> synaptic?
<rob^> 10.22 should be removed
<rob^> redundant
<rob^> and 10.23 would be better done with either synaptic or apt-get/aptitude
<rob^> the uninstall bit anyway
<rob^> Burgundavia, you will also need to do a find and remove for the answers that refer to killall gnome-panel too
<Burgundavia> ya
<jsgotangco> hey guys
<Burgundavia> hey jsgotangco 
<rob^> hi jsgotangco 
<Burgundavia> rob^, what is the link for that?
<rob^> it will look something like:
<rob^>                             <listitem os="gnome">
<rob^>                                 <para>Read <xref linkend="refreshgnomepanel"/>
<rob^>                                 </para>
<rob^>                             </listitem>
<rob^> all that will have to be removed
<Burgundavia> how do I grep all the files in a dir?
<rob^> umm..
<Madpilot> Burgundavia: -R 
<Madpilot> resursive
<Madpilot> recursive, even...
<rob^> find '*.xml' -exec something..
<rob^> to remove all that
<rob^> probaby need a couple of regexes
<Burgundavia> that is very odd
<jsgotangco> err guys we are about to package some stuff for the preview release jbailey is the one helping out
<rob^> or you could just pop open gedit and do it
<jsgotangco> im not familiar how it was done in hoary..anyone have a clue?
<Burgundavia> the diff in the emails says I removed this line "<question>" just above "<para>How to install/uninstall .deb file?</para>", but it isn't removed in my version
<Burgundavia> can someone svn up and confirm that>
<Burgundavia> ?
<rob^> hold on
<rob^> I got:
<rob^>                         <question>
<rob^>                                 <para>How to install/uninstall .deb file?</para>
<rob^>                         </question>
<Burgundavia> ok, that is correct
<rob^> after a svn up
<Burgundavia> the diff in the email is wrong
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, ewww on the ubuntu logo
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, it is a hacked
<Burgundavia> version. I am going to take the svg and export tot eh correct size
<Burgundavia> "my Ubuntu" or just "Ubuntu">?
<jsgotangco> Ubuntu
<rob^> hmm so I see
<rob^> svn is on crack
<Madpilot> "my <anything>" is far too Microsoft-like...
* rob^ thinks something rude
<Madpilot> jsgotangco: the messy Ubuntu logo on the quick tour is actually my fault, but it is just a placeholder...
* ajmitch is reminded of the screenshot mako posted on his blog
<jsgotangco> that was awful
<Burgundavia> even MS is dropping My for Vista
<rob^> vista is such a crap name for an OS
<rob^> I still refer to it as "longhorn"
<rob^> which is almost as crap..
<Madpilot> Virusta...
<rob^> but then theres "Ubuntu".. :)
<ajmitch> which at least means something
<rob^> zingggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg
<rob^> yeah, I know
<Madpilot> I still might register "www.windowsvirusta.com", if only for the pleasure of selling it back to MS... ;)
<rob^> you might get a free xbox and mcse like that mike rowe soft kid
<Madpilot> then I could ebay the Xbox and get something useful...
<rob^> its "Vista" anyway
<HrdwrBoB> wow, a free MCSE
<HrdwrBoB> I wouldn't take it free
* rob^ peers at his mcse books under his computer desk
<jsgotangco> its free its still good
<jsgotangco> its still worth something to other employers
<rob^> thats right
<Burgundavia> anybody else think that Installing Applications is far too wordy?
<HrdwrBoB> yes, but I don't want to work with windows :)
<rob^> Burgundavia, the phrase?
<Burgundavia> no, the section
<HrdwrBoB> I could probably get an MCSE, and I'm about that level, but argh
<rob^> HrdwrBoB, nither do many of the rest of us, but that tends to be where the work and money is
<Burgundavia> indeed
<Burgundavia> but the jobs suck
<jsgotangco> its still money
<jsgotangco> all of us need it one way or another
<Burgundavia> yes
<rob^> yep, hence I lock my self in my unix server room as much as I can
<jsgotangco> i actually did a demo of the OpenCD to a group of students yesterday
<HrdwrBoB> rob^: there's plenty (and more everyday) of linux work around
<rob^> Burgundavia, you should have seen how wordy it used to be
<Burgundavia> ouch
<rob^> HrdwrBoB, yes but most jobs require you to have ms certs also
<rob^> I removed about 40% of what used to be there
<rob^> the first question was twice as long as that before
<HrdwrBoB> rob^: not in my experience
<HrdwrBoB> though I'm in sysdamin in australia
<rob^> so am I
<rob^> its just who I do it for is different
<rob^> then the norm, anyway
<rob^> grr this lack of commit access really sucks
<Burgundavia> where are the menu entries again?
<rob^> gnome/ something
<Burgundavia> wow security is full of crap
<rob^> yeah just a bit
<rob^> I think it should be scraped and redone
<rob^> but like I said, no commit password :(
<Burgundavia> honestly, there isn't anything more than the following two things
<Burgundavia> 1. Keep up to date
<Burgundavia> 2. Don't install software from untrusted sources
<rob^> when it comes to Linux, yes they are the two key things
<Burgundavia> shall I burn it down to those 2?
<Burgundavia> and maybe one about adding a firewall
<rob^> but some of the other things are important when going to a LUG meeting with your box :)
<Burgundavia> if you go to lug meetings, you should know what to do
<rob^> kill nessus too
<rob^> heh yeah
<Burgundavia> and you are unlikely to be looking at this doc for advice
<rob^> you haven't seen some of the members of my lug
<rob^> its half tafe students
<Madpilot> just sent the Quick Tour diff off to the list, fully of shiny XHTML goodness
<Madpilot> rob^: tafe students? who/what is tafe?
<Burgundavia> rob^, so can I go to town on the security section?
<rob^> yep
<rob^> tafe students are like adult student things
<rob^> umm like poor mans uni/collage
<rob^> its a funny thing
<HrdwrBoB> heheh
<rob^> you can do an IT diploma there
<Madpilot> adult continuing ed, like?
<HrdwrBoB> Madpilot: not really
<HrdwrBoB> Madpilot: but some of them
<HrdwrBoB> Madpilot: more like... vocational skills
<HrdwrBoB> tafe also does the trade stuff
<Madpilot> ah, OK. 
<HrdwrBoB> chippies, sparkies, etc
<rob^> yep
<HrdwrBoB> my mother works at a tafe teaching english to migrates and illiterate people
<jsgotangco> that doesnt sound so bad its still education
<HrdwrBoB> jsgotangco: yeah but it won't get you anywhere professionally
<HrdwrBoB> in terms of IT
<jsgotangco> oh its that bad then
<HrdwrBoB> it's not necessarily bad, but it's not valued by most employers for anything over a gopher position
<rob^> yeah I did an it diploma many years ago, tell me bout it
<rob^> its kind of the equiv of doing a trade
<Madpilot> I was looking at the web design diploma at our local college, and it really seems more like a Macromedia diploma...
<HrdwrBoB> yeah
<Madpilot> plus the fact that the web design program's servers have now been down for a week+ doesn't inspire confidence!
<HrdwrBoB> it might teach YOU how to do things
<HrdwrBoB> but that's all it's ultimately for
<HrdwrBoB> my problem is I'm biased towards professional IT, and as such discount tafe stuff mostly offhand, plus I'm a bit of an arsehole
<HrdwrBoB> so take it all with a grain of salt :)
<jsgotangco> wow lock screen now works
<jsgotangco> even sound mute
<jsgotangco> !!!
<Burgundavia> grr
<Madpilot> ?
<Burgundavia> generic/faqguide/C/security.xml:44: parser error : Entity 'firestarter' not defined
<jsgotangco> Madpilot, toshiba hotkeys
<Burgundavia> but it freaking works!!!
<Madpilot> jsgotangco: ah, OK...
<Burgundavia> ok I have a conflict
<Burgundavia> validate is spitting up an error at me, but the doc works
<Burgundavia> should I commit?
* jsgotangco svn up
<Madpilot> hmmm... does ./validate.sh work on HTML/XHTML docs as well as XML?
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, faqguide?
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, yes
<Burgundavia> the error I just posted
<jsgotangco> are you validating security.xml itself?
<Burgundavia> ya
<jsgotangco> try validating faqguide.xml instead
<Burgundavia> just did, that works
<jsgotangco> it should work because security.xml is not a complete docbook 
<jsgotangco> it just starts with <chapter>
<jsgotangco> oh wait
<jsgotangco> i get tons of errors
<jsgotangco> cleanup the unknown entity called "refreshgnomepanel"
<jsgotangco> its an unkown ID
<Burgundavia> grr
<Burgundavia> need to kill those
<jsgotangco> (no idea where that entity is )
<Burgundavia> dead
<jsgotangco> "refreshgnomepanel" is the only thing you need to kill
<Burgundavia> I already did
<jsgotangco> commit again and i'll check
<Burgundavia> but the references are not
<jsgotangco> its still there
<jsgotangco> in a big number of lines
<jsgotangco> i can fix this but i'll have to open up all the docs and check
<Burgundavia> already did
<jsgotangco> ahh there its now clean
<jsgotangco> ahh right daniels said it was fixed already on -56 but the repo still hasnt refreshed
<jsgotangco> it still has -54
* rob^ sits back down
<rob^> ah the joys of having kids
<Madpilot> rob^: what were they lighting on fire this time? ;)
<rob^> nah mainly puking all over me
* Burgundavia was discussing kids with gf this evening. It was decided not to have any
<Madpilot> we talking "quite ill" or "very very small"?
<rob^> very wise :P
<Madpilot> Burgundavia: I really, really can't see C as a a mom, it just doesn't compute...
<rob^> very very small
<rob^> well one is
<Burgundavia> Madpilot, no
<Burgundavia> how do I apply a diff?
<jsgotangco> kids are great
<jsgotangco> especially when they say i love you daddy
* Burgundavia thinks that kids are great honey-roasted
<jsgotangco> people who didnt expererience being parents wont know the feeling
<Burgundavia> of vomit on their clothes, that is
<Madpilot> jsgotangco: is that before or after they puke?
<jsgotangco> neither
<jsgotangco> if its your kid you wouldn't mind
<jsgotangco> children are after all very vulnerable
<jsgotangco> thats why the world made parents to protect them
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, how do I apply a diff?
<jsgotangco> patch -p0 patch.diff file.xml
<jsgotangco> wait
<jsgotangco> file.xml first then patch.dff
* robitaille ah kids...imagine how much ubuntu stuff I could do without them :)
<jsgotangco> robitaille, you're not serious
<rob^> heh yep
<robitaille> :)
* Burgundavia breaks out his honey and his bbq
<Burgundavia> Madpilot, applied
<Madpilot> thanks
<Madpilot> svn up - lots of stuff - how come neither FF nor Opera can parse some of those xml files?
<Burgundavia> Madpilot, do you follow doc-team commits?
<Burgundavia> Madpilot, they are docbook
<Madpilot> and DocBook isn't XML as regular browsers understand it, right?
<Burgundavia> it is a type of XML
<Madpilot> nevermind, just found the wiki info on opening stuff in Yelp...
<jsgotangco> the new OOo 2 can actually save documents as docbook
<rob^> breezy decided to install both OOo1 and OOo2 the other day
<Madpilot> that's cool, and will make things much easier for Doc teams everywhere, I hope...
<rob^> heh we will see about that..
* Burgundavia doesn't trust wysiwyg editors, for any *ml
<rob^> could make things worse
<rob^> like Burgundavia said
<Madpilot> yeah, if it cranks out buggy code, then it's worse than useless...
<rob^> just look at wysiwyg html editors
<Madpilot> rob^: exactly...
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, are updates supposed to be seen instantly after uploading or is there a certain amount of time that it gets updated?
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, updates to Ubuntu?
<jsgotangco> yes Breezy specifically
<Burgundavia> there is a nightly cron job to apt-get update
<Burgundavia> as for telling the user, I think the icon-thingy polls about every 5 minutes
<Burgundavia> doesn't update, just looks to see if there are some indicated by a previous update
<jsgotangco> nvm, daniels' update just appeared
<Burgundavia> there is also a complicate schedule for building
<jsgotangco> this should fix my Xorg now
<Burgundavia> things are build and then twice an hour moved to the repos
<jsgotangco> well the daily build is scheduled
<Burgundavia> 03 and 33
<Madpilot> need sleep - having to work at 0900 bites. g'night, all
<jsgotangco> hmm at least an hour and a half after upload
<rob^> heh
<Burgundavia> ?
<rob^> working tomorrow
<rob^> :)
<jsgotangco> hmm its almost a month since i last worked in an office
* Burgundavia needs to pull in the latest inkscape and test for bugs
<Burgundavia> well, night all
<rob^> night
<jsgotangco> is it just me or are the fonts in frefox breezy look really vague in the wiki
<rob^> yeah
<rob^> msttcorefonts
<jsgotangco> even white looks really washed up
<jsgotangco> later guys im quite tired already
<klepas> nn
<klepas> :-)
<rob^> cya
<mgalvin> g'morning all
<rob^> morning
* rob^ currently has a whole channel of l33t hacker wannabes on another server thinking his running mirc 2.1 on windows 95
<rob^> hes*
<highvoltage> hehe
<rob^> i'm trying to get them to "hack" me
<rob^> so far the best then can do is "scare" me with ctcps
<jjesse> morning :)
<jbailey> mgalvin: Around?
<mgalvin> jbailey: hi, i am here
<jbailey> mgalvin: Heya - The bits inside the gnome directory references things outside of it.
<jbailey> So having the debian directory buried in there isn't really going to work.
<mgalvin> yea, that the not normal part i was talking about
<mgalvin> this is the way it has been for a while as far as i know, what would you recommend doing
<jbailey> Do you intend for the KDE and Gnome ones to be the same source package?
<jbailey> Or should they be completely separate and duplicate where needed?
<jbailey> (Or have a common base for other things?)
<jbailey> If you haven't thought about it, no worries. =)
<mgalvin> gnome and kde are separate and the common stuff is the stuff we ref ..
<jbailey> Right.
<jbailey> It wants the stuff from ../
<jbailey> Works fine when I build it from the svn tree.
<jbailey> But the souce package doesn't have the final bits in it.
<mgalvin> i guess it would be easier/quicker for now to just dup the common stuff for now, then later we can make a proper ubuntu-docs-common type package (or something similar)
<jbailey> I can do both just as easily.
<jbailey> So I'll aim for that then.  Hmm.
<jbailey> Although I guess that means a source tree reorg...
<mgalvin> ok, if you can whip up -common, that would be cool
<mgalvin> yea which is something that would require a bit more discussion with the rest of the team
<jbailey> 'k, I'll whip it up separate for now.  I'd like to just do -common so the ftp masters don't beat me.
<jbailey> kde also didn't build, I'm guess I'll need to clean that up.
<jbailey> I've asked for write access to the SVN repo.
<mgalvin> sounds good, if you need anything committed to svn for now, let me know, i can commit it for you until your commit access is set up
<jbailey> Cool.
<jbailey> for the split into -common and such...
<jbailey> During development, will it be acceptible to require that the -common package bits be installed into the  correct locations?
<jbailey> I'm wondering how I'll ask the build to look *either* in ../common *or* in /usr/share/ubuntu-docs-common/...
<mgalvin> jbailey: i would say ../common would be best for now
<jbailey> Right, but the packages versions have to build based on stuff in /usr/share/...
<jbailey> That's why I was originally wondering if it should be one big source package for all of the docs.
<mgalvin> hmm, i don't have any objects to having everything in one package, but i don't how the other members would feel about that
<mgalvin> jbailey: we don't have much time left to open a discussion about it, i would say just do what you need to do to get it to work and for breezy+1 we will come up with a better structure and packaging method
<jbailey> 'kay.  I'll glue it all together as I want and get it uploaded.
<mgalvin> great
#ubuntu-doc 2005-09-07
<Madpilot> hi Burgundavia
<jsgotangco> can anyone confirm if our PPC runs on non-apple hardware (like Pegasos, Power, etc)
<jsgotangco> jbailey, ping?
<jbailey> jsgotangco: pong
<jsgotangco> ahh
<jsgotangco> jbailey, any success?
<jbailey> jsgotangco: Still beating on it.  There will be an upload before I go to sleep.
<jsgotangco> i just updated some pages now
<jbailey> Cool, I'll repull svn one more time then.
<jbailey> I've still mostly been just thinking.
<jbailey> The problem is that the current svn layout isn't ideal for making packages.
<jsgotangco> hmm what is the ideal layout? its always been like that when i came
<jsgotangco> (it actually needs housekeeping)
<jbailey> It should be easy to see things as -common, -kde, and -gnome
<jbailey> ((or kubuntu-, ubuntu-, etc...)
<jbailey> The problem is that as soon as something references a file in its parent directory, that will break when packaged.
<jbailey> Unless the whole thing is thrown into one large source package.
<jbailey> The problem with one large source package is that it's very hard not to accumulate WIP cruft in there.
<jsgotangco> we're being convinced to move away from svn and go baz after this so that it will also give us a window to clean up the stuff
<jbailey> I think what I'll probably do for this upload is make it one large source package of just the directories that I care about (ubuntu, kubuntu if I can get the KDE stuff to build)
<jsgotangco> because at the moment, its one big lump
<jsgotangco> of interconnected cruft
<jbailey> Ugh.  When are you planning on doing that?
<jbailey> If it's reasonable to wait until bzr has a decent centralised model, you are probably best to do that.
<jsgotangco> there is no date yet 
<jbailey> If you're not familiar with baz, it's possibly not worth learning all the nuiances.
<jsgotangco> well its actually acceptable to just go bzr we'll just have to clean up the current svn for now
<jbailey> I really enjoy using bzr, but the centralised model isn't in yet.
<jsgotangco> svn actually works for us at the moment
<jbailey> Right, and cleaning up svn is easy enoug.
<jsgotangco> (the bigger issue is having people stay and contribute)
<jbailey> What I would do is probably svn mv it all to a branch point called '/branches/old_cruft', and copy bits into where you want it to be, and fix the links up as a single changeset.
<jbailey> Probably take one or two people working together about a day to do and then it's out of your way.
<jsgotangco> what sean did before after warty was branch to a new set then merged to trunk
<jbailey> Either is fine.  I like moving all the cruft out of the way and starting with a clean slate just moving in what I want, so that I'm cherrypicking in, not decrufting out.
<jbailey> The nice part is that you always have the history to go back to if you forget something.
<jbailey> And if you forget something and don't notice... Who cares? =)
<jsgotangco> hmm ok i'll put that in todo after everything is settled down
<jbailey> Sure.
<jbailey> I suspect that I'll probably be available to help you guys and such after too.
<jsgotangco> rad
<jsgotangco> i'll lurk for a while its morning here so just ping me just in case thanks
<jbailey> I tend to silently watch the docteam meetings in #ubuntu-meeting anyway.. =)
<jbailey> 'kay, will do.
<jbailey> I'm just finishing up some glibc testing before I start the serious work.
<jbailey> It's mostly been just poking around and such in the meantime.
<jbailey> But this upload is a before-I-sleep-tonight task.
<rob^> hmm whats going on with the make files in svn at the moment?
<rob^> in fact, whats going on with svn in general?
<jsgotangco> mmm?
* jsgotangco didnt change anything in the make file
<rob^> warning: failed to load external entity "/usr/share/xml/docbook/stylesheet/nwalsh/html/profile-chunk.xsl"
<rob^> compilation error: file libs/gnome-ubuntu.xsl line 5 element import
<rob^> xsl:import : unable to load /usr/share/xml/docbook/stylesheet/nwalsh/html/profile-chunk.xsl
<rob^> make: *** [faqi386]  Error 5
<rob^> when doing "make faqi386"
<jsgotangco> where do you do a make?
<rob^> gnome/
<jsgotangco> hmm do you have docbook-xsl?
<rob^> hmm let me check..
<rob^> nope
* rob^ forgets he did a reinstall
<rob^> ok, it seems to be working now :)
<rob^> thanks
<jsgotangco> np
<Burgundavia> wow, the trailer for Aeonflux looks terrible
<Madpilot> the trailer for what?
<jsgotangco> on totem?
<jsgotangco> or the trailer itself?
<Burgundavia> Aeonflux
<jsgotangco> i didnt like aeonflux in the first place
<Burgundavia> http://trailers.apple.com/trailers/paramount/aeon_flux/
<jsgotangco> a life action film?
<Burgundavia> ya
<Burgundavia> with Charlize Theron
* Burgundavia needs to hug the totem plugin authors
<jsgotangco> hmm i should watch that
<Madpilot> looks missable, really...
* Madpilot needs to get the totem plugins working in Opera...
<jsgotangco> no i'll just watch charlize
<Madpilot> yah, OK, she's decorative, at least
<jsgotangco> hmm she looks terrible with that hair
<Madpilot> you were watching her hair? :)
<jsgotangco> and that's no aeon flux costume :)
<Madpilot> is the an anime or something that Hollywood's got their paws on?
<jsgotangco> its not really anime
<jsgotangco> more of like anime-inspired
<jsgotangco> aeon flux is relatively old
<rob^> to put the revhistory on another page, do we just change the templates/makefile?
<jsgotangco> and the main character was always in compromising positions
<Madpilot> as opposed to compromising costumes?
<jsgotangco> Madpilot, that as well :)
<rob^> Burgundavia, ping
<Burgundavia> rob^, pong
<rob^> hi
<Burgundavia> you need an ATI section written for the FAQ guide?
<rob^> Madpilot told my you own an ATI graphics card
<rob^> yeah, I was about to add the instructions from https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BinaryDriverHowto/ATI
* Burgundavia observes that so does Madpilot 
<rob^> I cant check if they work though
<Burgundavia> they do
<rob^> in Breezy at least
<Madpilot> yeah, but I don't run Breezy...
<rob^> ok, well I'll add it, let me know if you have any problems
<rob^> thanks
<Burgundavia> I can check what you write
<rob^> cool, ok
<Burgundavia> the most common trip up is the Option "UseInternalAGPGART" "no" addition that is needed
<rob^> is that option in there by default or do you need to add the whole thing?
<Burgundavia> no
<Madpilot> I think that option is only relevant to those (like me) who run NForce2 mobos still
<rob^> do you add it in: Section "Device"
<Burgundavia> that is only needed for certain chipsets
<Burgundavia> primarily the nforce2, probably the most common budget chipset
<Madpilot> Section "Device"
<Madpilot> 	Identifier	"ATI Technologies, Inc. Radeon 9600 XT (RV350 AR)"
<Madpilot> 	Driver		"fglrx"
<Madpilot> 	BusID		"PCI:3:0:0"
<Madpilot> 	Option		"UseInternalAGPGART" "no"
<Madpilot> EndSection
<Madpilot> sorry for the dump, but that's where the internalAGPGART line fits
<Madpilot> hmmm... and I just realized that PCI bit on the BusID line - shouldn't that be AGP something?
<rob^> thanks
<rob^> when making the faq guide I'm getting a lot of this:
<rob^> The shade.verbatim parameter is deprecated. Use CSS instead,
<rob^> for example: pre.screen { background-color: #E0E0E0; }
<rob^> whats going on there?
<jsgotangco> are you in hoary?
<rob^> no, Breezy
<jsgotangco> hmmm it probably has a new xsl version?
<rob^> I also noticed that <screen> tags are not shading the background like they used to
<jsgotangco> yelp rendering is quite different as well in breezy
<rob^> yeah
<jsgotangco> (still slow though)
<rob^> I'm just viewing this through ff though
<jsgotangco> i guess the make needs to be updated post-breezy
<rob^> yeah
<jsgotangco> jbailey is willing to help us clean out the svn after all the chaos to make things much easier for us
<jsgotangco> packaging-wise as well
<rob^> looking forward to it
<jsgotangco> so most probably we'll branch the old stuff
<jsgotangco> instead of them staying stagnant in trunk
<jeffsch> rob^: you want to move the rev history?
<jeffsch> np
<rob^> yep, so it doesn't appear on the front page
<rob^> thanks
<jeffsch> it is an entity. see faqguide.xml, and move &revhistory; to wherever you want
<rob^> yeah I was thinking that
<jsgotangco> ughhh the docbook xml by OOo 2 is ugly
<jeffsch> does anyone else think that the faqguide style could use some improvement?
<jeffsch> i'm talking about fonts, colours, etc
<rob^> jeffsch, yess
<Burgundavia> yelp in breezy is now using gecko
<rob^> I'm addressing one of the issues in the patch I just sent to the list
<jeffsch> i'm thinking a sans serif font would be better
<jeffsch> and better spacing between Q's and A's
<jeffsch> and ubuntu colour scheme
<rob^> yeah, I would agree with that jeffsch 
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jsgotangco> would an inline css work?
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, jeffsch shall I apply those patches?
<jeffsch> Burgundavia: go for it
<jsgotangco> i haven't seen my email feel free to do so if its valid
<jeffsch> patch <diff_file
<jeffsch> simpler than patch -p0 blah blah blah
<rob^> man I really need a new password..
<jsgotangco> jeffsch, i'm going to add a simple docbook chapter on the styleguide soon
<jsgotangco> jeffsch, eventually the styleguide can be our handbook
<jeffsch> jsgotangco: wait until after release... 
<jsgotangco> yep
<jsgotangco> we have time
<jeffsch> we also need a "how to write procedures" part in the style guide
<jeffsch> but all in good time
<jsgotangco> you mean step by step procedures?
<jeffsch> yeah
<Burgundavia> rob^, which global.ent are you applying this against?
<Burgundavia> rob^, the one in generic/libs?
<rob^> no
<rob^> libs/
<jsgotangco> im just looking at random entries in the gdp handbook
<jeffsch> gadzooks! there's more than one global.ent?
<rob^> yeah
<rob^> its a mess
<jsgotangco> wow
<jsgotangco> where is the other one?
<rob^> generic/libs/
<jsgotangco> err isn't that the real global.ent?
<rob^> will all the links are in the former
<rob^> well*
<jsgotangco> err wait a minute
<rob^> they have always been
<Burgundavia> can we just merge them?
<jsgotangco> there's only one global.ent
<jsgotangco> the one in generic/libs is generic.ent
<rob^> not in our svn
<jsgotangco> are you certain
<jsgotangco> i only have one global.ent
<rob^> oops, one is global
<jsgotangco> err wait
<jsgotangco> we do have 2 global.ent
<jeffsch> whew! I have only one globa.ent as well
<jsgotangco> but the other one is in learnlinux
<Madpilot> I'm showing two here, fwiw
<rob^> there is libs/global.ent and generic/libs/generic.ent
<jsgotangco> the other global.ent isnt really used
<rob^> both serve the same purpose
<Madpilot> one in /libs and one in /generic/learnlinux/C 
<rob^> but we only need one
<rob^> oh shit, theres three?
<jsgotangco> the other one isn't used really
<jsgotangco> it just came in after the merge
<jsgotangco> but generic.ent should be merged with only the real global.ent
<jsgotangco> ackk more housekeeping...
* jsgotangco gonna eat first
<jsgotangco> brb
<rob^> ok
<jeffsch> but don't merge yet... we don't know what will break if we do
<jsgotangco> yes
<jsgotangco> after wards
<jeffsch> ok, this weekend i'm gonna try building a style into the xslt customization layer for the faqguide
<jeffsch> the style will be based on the quick tour style
<rob^> sounds intresting
<rob^> bbs
<Burgundavia> cool
<jeffsch> if it works :)
<Madpilot> cool. I may have started something with the styling of that quick tour...
* Burgundavia really must work on the quicktour
<Madpilot> yes, you must. It is supposed to be your pet project, after all... :)
<jbailey> The generated index.html referes to aboutubuntu.css
<jbailey> hmm
<jbailey> Ah, under gnome/libs
<jbailey> The Makefile doesn't install it.
<jbailey> =)
<Burgundavia> for the quicktour, I inlined the css, as it is designed to be distributed outside our controlled environment
<Madpilot> embedded. inline CSS is slightly different
<Madpilot> </nitpick>
<Burgundavia> ok
<jbailey> Madpilot: What's the difference?
<Madpilot> inline styles are right in each seperate tag. <span style="foo:bar;thing:something">Text here</span> is inline
<Madpilot> embedded is the whole stylesheet stuck up in the header of the page
<jsgotangco> embedded is declared at the top most of the document right?
<Madpilot> jsgotangco: yes, like the quick tour
<jbailey> Ah, thanks.
<jsgotangco> embedded css is much more manageable then
<Madpilot> much more so
<jsgotangco> although nothing beats have a separate .css file
<Madpilot> external stylesheets (standard "foo.css" stuff) are even better, esp. with more than one page...
<jsgotangco> s/have/having
<jbailey> How ought someone to get to the Release notes and stuff?  What should take them to that or the FAQ for their architecture?
<jsgotangco> the release notes isn't updated at all
<jbailey> It says 5.10 at the top, I'm happy for now. =)
<jsgotangco> because it was only referenced from the external entity
<jsgotangco> eh
<jbailey> Ah, I see.
<jbailey> This is intended to be the page that FireFox opens to by default.
<jsgotangco> no that's About Ubuntu
<jsgotangco> i believe the one in hoary was done by the artwork people
<jbailey> Right, it's in the artwork package.
<jbailey> Doens't much make sense to have it there, except to minimise the branding headache
<jbailey> But anyone serious about branding will want to repalce ubuntu-docs anyway.
<jeffsch> jbailey: re: aboutubuntu.css. do you need the makefile to copy it over? i can add it if you need it
<jbailey> jeffsch: I'll hack around it in the package for now, but it would be good to have it in there.
<jbailey> As I"m digging through this, I'm getting a clearer idea of the stuff that should be in common.
<jeffsch> ok, i can add it eventually, instead of immediately then
<jbailey> I haven't looked at how the style sheets are broken out, though.  They appear to be single style sheets per thing, rather than a common 'ubuntu' look, and then per-page love.
<jbailey> The directories are also a bit tossed up by the looks of it.
<jeffsch> it's a mess, no doubt
<jbailey> Ahaha, funny.  The faqi386 refers to an image on the web.
<Madpilot> jbailey: you mean the img link is a full URL, not local? ouch
<jeffsch> jbailey: where? the "draft" background is on the web, but it will be coming off
<jbailey> Right, for the draft background.
<jbailey> jeffsch: Except that I'm uploading the package in hopefully aout 20 minutes =)
<jsgotangco> yeah the funky draft image
<jbailey> But so far it looks like the faqguides have the navigation locally and in the right plcae.
<jbailey> So I just need to adjust aboutubuntu's expectations of life.
<jbailey> Why was latin-1 chosen for the target character set?
<jbailey> Was it to make lynx browsing easier for the C locale docs?
<jeffsch> jbailey: to dump the draft image for your build, in libs/common-cust.xsl, change the line
<jeffsch> <xsl:param name="draft.mode" select="'no'"/>
<jeffsch> doh! spoke to soon... hold on a sec
<jbailey> =)
<jbailey> Ah, IconUbuntu.png just isn't installed.  Easy enough.
<jbailey> So it seems like about-ubuntu's Makefile is just not complete for now.
<jbailey> Easy enough to fix on the next pass.
<jbailey> But I'm still curious how the user is supposed to find these docs...
<rob^> what do you mean?
<jbailey> Well, there's a set of faqs and the 'about Ubuntu' page.
<jbailey> I can register them with doc-base.
<jbailey> But I suspect that the type of user who can figure out using things that know about doc base probably isn't looking for our FAQ.
<rob^> the faq guide should pop up when people hit yelp
<jbailey> Ah, okay.
<jsgotangco> well not just the faqguide
<rob^> yes, we need to do something that also links to the other doc or two we are including also
<rob^> what are we releasing with ubuntu again?
<jbailey> Right, so when I hit that lifesaver thing, I see right now that it says "Guide express Ubuntu".
<Burgundavia> rob^, faqguide and quicktour
<jbailey> So that link should be repointed I guess.
<jsgotangco> we'll probably still end up with the existing yelp front page and chunk the others
<rob^> Burgundavia, thanks
<rob^> either we can have something like we have now with just two links (one for the faq guide, one for the quick tour), or we can just have the faq guide appear and place a link in it to the quicktour
<jeffsch> jbailey: the file is gnome/libs/common-cust.xsl
<jeffsch> change <xsl:param name="draft.mode" select="'yes'"/> to a 'no'
<jbailey> Cool, thanks.
<jsgotangco> how will the faqguide be included if its profiled? in html?
<jeffsch> we have two common-cust.xsl files :(
<rob^> yes, html it was decided
<rob^> unless of cause the xml is appering properly, then we can review the decision
<jsgotangco> it probably wont
<rob^> yeah
<rob^> when is the document writing cutoff again?
<jsgotangco> 8
<rob^> ah
<jsgotangco> we're going to include some docs for preview release
<rob^> yeah, I was hoping that
<jbailey> Artwork deadline is the 24th.
<jbailey> Is there a documentation freeze?
<rob^> by some docs, you mean the faq guide and quickguide?
<jsgotangco> jbailey, sept. 8
<jbailey> What I had talked about with mdz is that I want to get a weekly snapshot going from the docteam into the repository so that there isn't this mad rush next time
<rob^> or quicktour even
<jsgotangco> jbailey, that should be the cawse
<rob^> jbailey, yes, thats a good idea
<jsgotangco> jbailey, the problem was that documents arent properly spec'ed to begin with
<jsgotangco> so there is always a mad rush in the end
<jsgotangco> so docs should have milestone goals as well
<rob^> for next release it should be better
<jbailey> Sure, it'll always get better.
<jsgotangco> even if it just contains TODO in the milestones
<jbailey> That's the great part about experience. =)
<rob^> heh ype
<rob^> yep
<jbailey> Well, and I suspect that there are some components of the specs that should have documentation as part of their completion tasks.
<jeffsch> a weekly snapshot may force us to keep a decently organized svn repos!
<jsgotangco> yes
<jbailey> If the docs are being updated as it goes, and those have to be pushed into the framework, it'll make it easier to push it.
<jbailey> This quickguide isn't in the svn, is it?
<jbailey> Oh, I see it - under gnome.
<Burgundavia> jbailey, the quicktour just hit
<rob^> yeah, it kind of reformed into the quick tour
<jbailey> So which one should I grab?
<Burgundavia> quicktour
* jbailey has this urge to redo the makefile with automake.
<jbailey> But it's 01h30 and this is between me and bed.
<jbailey> ;)
<rob^> heh watch you get no sleep because of it..
<jbailey> At this point, I'm just dropping the docs into place.
<jbailey> I'll get yelp to use them and such tomorrow.
<jbailey> Uploading.
<rob^> cool
<jbailey> And with that, I think it's bedtime.
<Burgundavia> jbailey, thanks!
<jbailey> I'll nudge elmo about the svn access so that I can help you guys with thecleanup stuff.
<Burgundavia> jbailey, cool
<Burgundavia> Madpilot, you want to nudge elmo for commit access, it is fine with me
<Madpilot> eventually
<Madpilot> don't even have a PGP key generated yet
<rob^> Madpilot, once you get used to Docbook a bit more
<rob^> then get it
<Madpilot> once I use Docbook at all, you mean!
<rob^> submit some patches to the list
<rob^> yeah, without knowing docbook its kind of useless having commit access
<Burgundavia> not really
<Burgundavia> the quicktour is html
<Burgundavia> and will stay that way
<rob^> why?
<Madpilot> I've been meaning to get some sort of handle on XML, so this is as good a reason as any
<jsgotangco> Madpilot, its fun
<rob^> when we can't generate anything from it
<Burgundavia> because there is no reason to make it docbook
<rob^> eg pdf
<Burgundavia> you can do pdf from html
<jsgotangco> yes
<Burgundavia> I think we can also do pot/po from it
<rob^> ah ok, still..
<jsgotangco> the gnome people have a better way on doing this stuff
<jsgotangco> (seen on the marketing list)
<Burgundavia> oh?
<jsgotangco> have you seen luis' email on the 2.12 release notes
<Burgundavia> yes, but mostly passed it by
<jsgotangco> well its now up for translation they gave a 7-day window
<Burgundavia> ah
* Liz is away: I'm busy
<jsgotangco> Liz, aren't you always ;)
<jsgotangco> hmm lots of branching are happening on the gnome-doc list lately
<rob^> how come?
<Burgundavia> all the branching for the new release must be announced to the -doc list
<rob^> oh
<rob^> I don't follow that list
<Burgundavia> as with any string changes after a certain point
<jsgotangco> i'm trying to learn their process
<rob^> to suggest it for us?
<Burgundavia> they don't have one
<jsgotangco> seems so
<jsgotangco> fedora has a better structure
<jsgotangco> but the people here might find it too strict
<Burgundavia> red hat pays people to do docs
<Burgundavia> hence they have structure
<jsgotangco> yes my point exactly
<rob^> heh
<jsgotangco> i was about to end that
<jsgotangco> i'll just ask questions about our performance after the chaos
* Burgundavia has dramatic plans for breezy+1
<rob^> oh?
<jsgotangco> care to share it to the rest
<Burgundavia> most of them involve us writing less docs
<Burgundavia> a lot less
<rob^> ok, but can I just say to you please discuss it first
<jsgotangco> well we already have a good base
<Burgundavia> rob^, absolutely
<rob^> :)
<rob^> good
<Burgundavia> rob^, things are percolating through my brain. I intend to put out an RFC after string freeze
<rob^> an RFC?
<Burgundavia> Request for Comments
<jsgotangco> RFCs give structure
<jsgotangco> heh
<jsgotangco> :)
<rob^> yeah, I know what it means
<Liz> jsgotangco, not always..but right now..im off to tyhe video shop
<Liz> nothing on tv tonight
<Liz> :)
<Liz> and i wander in here now and then...this is the most anyones said in it when ive been here
<Burgundavia> we are getting busier, closer to release
<rob^> I think we should just have a meeting and try to get as many people at it as possible after breezy is released, then forward to the mailing list for final discussion
<rob^> about our direction post-breezy
<Burgundavia> yes
<ajmitch> for those that can make it, UBZ
<jsgotangco> yes
<Burgundavia> how many can we ship to UBZ?
<rob^> hence, mailing list
<jsgotangco> how many?
<jsgotangco> people?
<Burgundavia> ya
<jsgotangco> jbailey is there so its a given that he'll be involved more
<Burgundavia> I really want you and rob there, but I don't know if it is possible
<rob^> is that the next ubuntu conference?
<Burgundavia> yes, in Montreal, Canada
<jsgotangco> else i can start swimming this weekend
<ajmitch> jsgotangco: you start, I'll catch up
<Burgundavia> rob^,  you applied for funding yet?
<rob^> hmm.. how?
<rob^> I'd love to be there if I could get funding
<jsgotangco> sure
<jsgotangco> its in the wiki
<Madpilot> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBelowZero/Attendees  <-- rob^
<Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBelowZero/Attendees
<jsgotangco> i got funded before in sydney so did ajmitch 
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> the doc team really needs a high-bandwidth meeting
<jsgotangco> except that what happened is that i was the only active docteam member there
<Burgundavia> yes
<rob^> its a shame I missed that
<Burgundavia> UBZ might end up the same way
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, if we get at least 2, we're set
<Burgundavia> where is matt east?
<jsgotangco> our favorite barrister is moving at the moment
<Burgundavia> and matt galvin?
<jsgotangco> no idea he comes in lately but quite busy at work
<Burgundavia> damn'
<Burgundavia> anyone seen Troy Williams in a while?
<jsgotangco> our team is less than the fingers in one hand
<jsgotangco> (active-wise that is)
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> jerome, me, rob^, jjesse in svn
<Burgundavia> mgalvin and mdke appear to be awol currently, unforunately
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, you only committed lately :) hehehe 
<Burgundavia> and sean seems to have left us permently
<jsgotangco> but im not saying that against you :)
<jsgotangco> its all good
<Burgundavia> ok, odd titles -->  "US places curbs on Chinese bras"
<jsgotangco> oh he still follows the list
<Burgundavia> yes, but no commits and he is not in here
* ajmitch wouldn't mind helping out, time permitting
<ajmitch> except that MOTU time seems to take quite a bit of my week
<Burgundavia> the quiet time before we can really start writing should be taken up with speccing this time, instead of nothing
<jsgotangco> well we had our lessons for Breezy
<rob^> is the funding for just travel or does it include accomm and meals?
* Burgundavia notes that he is just as guilty
<jsgotangco> half of the time we were talking about infrastructure
<Burgundavia> rob^, travel and accom
<Burgundavia> rob^, usually some meals
<jsgotangco> rob^, full meals
<ajmitch> we had meals paid for at UDU
<Burgundavia> oh?
<jsgotangco> yes
<Burgundavia> Mataro was dinner on our own
<jsgotangco> except during UDU we had to wait for dinner
<ajmitch> & wait
<jsgotangco> and everyone of us are hungry
<ajmitch> & then complain about the food :)
<Burgundavia> but at Mataro we had "Bags of death"
<Burgundavia> for lunch
<jsgotangco> UDU was fun, food wise
<jsgotangco> they made sure we were caffeinnated
<ajmitch> oh yes
<ajmitch> we needed it though
<Burgundavia> mataro had lots of juice, but the meals sucked
<jsgotangco> not to mention the mentos
<jsgotangco> time flies so fast it seems just a few days ago
<ajmitch> all-week sugar high 
<Burgundavia> UDU sounded crazy
<jsgotangco> it was
<jsgotangco> we went to a movie
<Burgundavia> Mataro was much more relaxed. We had hack sessions in the afternoon
<Burgundavia> as it was also a lp sprint
<ajmitch> we had everything (~200 specs) in 1 week at UDU
<jsgotangco> although the venue wasn't really that good for brain dumping
<jsgotangco> the hotel was flowing with chinese tourists
<ajmitch> no hack sessions scheduled
<jsgotangco> and because we had shitty wireless then
* Burgundavia suspects that more of us are going to UBZ than we suspect. The "limited number of sponsorships" is mostly to keep out the casual
<ajmitch> Burgundavia: nah, it is limited
<ajmitch> time for breezy live test
<jsgotangco> good luck
* Burgundavia --> phone
<rob^> hey, according to http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/visit/visas.html  Australians don't need a Visa to visit Canada, is that right?
<Burgundavia> rob^, yes
<rob^> nice..
<Burgundavia> rob^, most major "western" nations don't need visas for visiting people from other major "wester" nations
<rob^> I guess I should submit my passport paperwork that I filled out and forgot to submit..
<Burgundavia> yes
* rob^ tells wife, almost gets bashed
* jsgotangco hopes aren't really that high for UBZ
<rob^> my passport is being paid for by the people I work for anyway
<jsgotangco> oh you have a government passport
<Madpilot> bonus
<rob^> yep
<jsgotangco> but you can't use that for non-official work
<Burgundavia> is generic/instalguide/C the current location of the install guide
<Burgundavia> ?
<rob^> the type of one I am getting I can
<jsgotangco> government passports are supposed to be with a corresponding work order/stuff
<jsgotangco> ahh
<jsgotangco> i can always go to LCA anyways
<rob^> thats in nz..
<jsgotangco> yes
<rob^> I still wonder why they did that
<ajmitch> the *other* australian state :)
<rob^> yeah..
<rob^> heh
<ajmitch> because mike beattie & his team put in a submission
<rob^> yeah I know
<ajmitch> so LCA in Dunedin, NZ
* ajmitch hopes he still has somewhere to stay in january
<jsgotangco> are you still in otago u?
<ajmitch> I'm still in Dunedin, but working
<rob^> there is some more patches
<rob^> are*
<Burgundavia> rob^, got them
<rob^> cool
<jsgotangco> oh you got it already
<jsgotangco> i was over the phone
<Burgundavia> rob^, can we just can bum?
<Burgundavia> rob^, it is also in Breezy universe
<rob^> can what?
<Burgundavia> bootup manager
<jsgotangco> bum? no way
<rob^> yeah, I thought I did?
<Burgundavia> you commented it out
<Burgundavia> services-admin now exists in Breezy, so bum is unneeded
<rob^> hmm
<rob^> I did remove it, but must have forgot to upload the change
<rob^> yeah can it
<Burgundavia> ok, I will remove it
<Burgundavia> I am also thinking of going for cowbell instead of easytag
<Burgundavia> what about dropping goobox?
<rob^> is it any good?
<Burgundavia> sj is installed by default
<rob^> change it
<Burgundavia> cowbell is much much simpler to use
<rob^> if you think so then, I just download my mp3s..
<jsgotangco> wtf are those apps
<rob^> I mean.. umm
<Madpilot> jsgotangco: CD rippers
<jsgotangco> are they in universe?
<Burgundavia> SJ is installed by default
<Burgundavia> goobox is in universe
<jsgotangco> i know SJ
<Madpilot> cowbell doesn't seem to be in Hoary repos; goobox is
<jsgotangco> no idea about a goobox or a cowbell
<rob^> neither
<Burgundavia> Madpilot, cowbell is a brandnew mono app
<rob^> I dont care, much of a muchness really, they both do the job
<Madpilot> Burgundavia: cool
<Burgundavia> ok, I wil kill goobox then
<Burgundavia> hmm, looks like you did remove bum
<rob^> yeah I thought so
<Burgundavia> looks like SVN messed up the diff again
<rob^> where should we move the revhistory?
<rob^> I'm not sure..
<rob^> on its own page?
<Madpilot> its own page at the end of the ToC? (revhist is mostly an internal thing, I'm thinking...)
<rob^> I would kind of rather have a link near the top..
* Liz is back (gone 00:59:29)
<jsgotangco> hey look at sean's reply
<rob^> ?
<rob^> hey, he has reappeared
<jsgotangco> and he said we
<rob^> us!
<jsgotangco> i mean us
<Burgundavia> rob^, should I move firestarter to system tools?
<rob^> heh yeah firestarter is one of those funny apps that belongs in several places
<rob^> I think networking or security is a better place
<rob^> as in Networking Utilities, not chapter 7
<Burgundavia> rob^, what about just leaving it in Security?
<rob^> yeah, I think its in there twice actually
<Burgundavia> I added it there earlier
<Liz> "ajmitch the *other* australian state :)"...over this kiwis dead body only :P
<Madpilot> NZ? which province of Australia is that in, again? ;)
* Madpilot hides
<jsgotangco> its the bigger part of tasmania!
* jsgotangco hides
<rob^> hahaha
<Madpilot> and anyone asking which state of the US Canada is in had better hide *before* asking, OK? :P
<HrdwrBoB> um
<HrdwrBoB> canada is quite bg though
<HrdwrBoB> big
<HrdwrBoB> NZ is smaller than AU and very similar in many ways
<jsgotangco> hans island is denmark!!!
* jsgotangco hides
<Madpilot> more orcs & sheep in NZ, though
<jsgotangco> orcs
<jsgotangco> ah
<HrdwrBoB> no, there's more sheep in AU
<Madpilot> what, you mean LotR wasn't a documentary?
<HrdwrBoB> In 1998 there were just under 120 million sheep in Australia
<Madpilot> did you just google for sheep number, HrdwrBoB? :P
<Madpilot> *numbers, even...
<HrdwrBoB> yeah
* rob^ fires off another patch
<HrdwrBoB> with google at my side, there's not much I don't know
<Madpilot> true enough. why remember when you can google? (guilty here too...)
<HrdwrBoB> I remember lots of things
<HrdwrBoB> I know lots of things
<HrdwrBoB> the amount of sheep in australia I don't consider an important enough fact to keep in my head
<Madpilot> anyway, I need sleep. good night, all. have fun with the docs.
<jsgotangco> haha
* Liz puts sheep in Madpilot's bed
<jsgotangco> i was reading the silmarillion last night
<Madpilot> Liz: no, I'm not *from* NZ or Oz, I don't think of sheep in *that* way!
<jsgotangco> the movie just ruined my imaginataion
* Madpilot had better really hide this time...
<Liz> :P
<Liz> ntie Madpilot 
<jsgotangco> when i read of elves, i begin to visualize orlando bloom urrkk
<rob^> bbl dinner time
<HrdwrBoB> \o/ next week I will get my laptop battery and hard drive
<Burgundavia> rob^, oh crap, I just changed faqguide.xml
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, should i patch this or i wait for your change
<jsgotangco> oh
<Burgundavia> let me try and apply them
<jsgotangco> okay
<jsgotangco> i'll just do my changes later
<jsgotangco> when im sure you're asleep ;)
<Burgundavia> ok, that is done
<Burgundavia> ah crap
<Burgundavia> now it doesn't validate
<Burgundavia> rob^, can you look at your preface patch again please?
<jsgotangco> hey ubuntu-docs is uploded
<jsgotangco> hmm seems it didn't do anything just deleted the old stuff
<jsgotangco> the old quickguide is still there
<Burgundavia> yes
<jsgotangco> i guess jbailey tested it first
<Burgundavia> maybe it should conflict with the old docs?
<ippiraman> test
<ippiraman> finally
<Burgundavia> salut ippiraman 
<ippiraman> hello all
<jsgotangco> jbailey's log shows that it has all the docs
<ippiraman> i've been digging through the documentation
<jsgotangco> but they didnt show
<jsgotangco> i guess the omf files need updating
<ippiraman> are there any plans to utilize the unofficial guides/faq?
<Burgundavia> ippiraman, we already do
<jsgotangco> ippiraman, we already have the ubuntu guide
<ippiraman> great!
<Burgundavia> ippiraman, the faqguide is based on ubuntguide.org
<ippiraman> i'd like to see more docs on kubuntu
<ippiraman> maybe i could help
<Burgundavia> the kubuntu team needs some help
<Burgundavia> not hard to start
<jsgotangco> great we really lack kubuntu people
<ippiraman> i use kubuntu on my deskop and laptop. and i already signed up at the LaptopTestingTeam
<ippiraman> maybe jsgotangco could point me where to start. i'm from the philippines too!
<jsgotangco> i see
<jsgotangco> you should go to linuxworld and go to my talk
<ippiraman> that would be hard for me. i'm based in bicol and have a regular job here (not IT related)
<jsgotangco> at least you have a job heh
<ippiraman> although i'm planning to attend the Software Freedom Day
<jsgotangco> in Manila?
<ippiraman> yes in PUP
<jsgotangco> oh ok just grab me just in case
<ippiraman> if i can't make it. We'd probably celebrate it here also. I maintain two internet shops and I'll be giving away ubuntu cd's
<jsgotangco> nice
<Burgundavia> rob^, you there?
* ajmitch hopes he didn't offend Liz ;)
<ippiraman> we're really short with open source advocates here in bicol
<Liz> its all good ajmitch 
<jsgotangco> ippiraman, what do you want to do with kubuntu
<jsgotangco> ippiraman, at the moment, jjesse and me are doing some stuff
<ippiraman> now i do the laptoptesting
<jsgotangco> but my involvement with kubuntu is quite limited at the moment
<ajmitch> Liz: don't worry, I've lived in NZ all my life :)
<ippiraman> i see. i'm hoping someone would point me where to start
<jsgotangco> ippiraman, errrmmm
<jsgotangco> doc.ubuntu.com
<ippiraman> i just want to clarify if the docs will be released with the release of breezy?
<jsgotangco> ippiraman, what docs we already have uploaded some docs today
<jsgotangco> we can't add anything more now
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, yes we can
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, have we sorted out how the profiling into html is going to happen?
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, try my friend...its already Sept. 2
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, yes
<ajmitch> at best you could ship more docs in universe, I guess
<jsgotangco> ajmitch, good idea
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, if someone writes until they drop, they will make our goal of the 8th
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, "if"
<Burgundavia> yes
<ajmitch> if you could convince ogra to let you ship new packages in universe :)
* jsgotangco wonders if documents become a bounty, we would be flooded
* Burgundavia would rather not
<Burgundavia> bounties would require one of us to mentor them
<jsgotangco> sure you're the senior at th emoment
<ippiraman> and jerome could mentor me? :-)
<Burgundavia> and bounties might end with people who are paid to write by the word
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, no thanks
<Burgundavia> can a docbook guru svn up and look at the validate error on the faqguide
<jsgotangco> ippiraman, tell me what interests you and i can give you a good idea what you might be good for you
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, hold on
<jsgotangco> what does gnome-menus-C.ent contain?
<Burgundavia> the lists of all the various xmls which point to menus
<Burgundavia> so we can say &application and it shows the user where to find it
<ajmitch> ideally a bounty is done when it's completed to the reviewer's satisfaction
<Burgundavia> rob^, I had thought you had completely seperated out the faqguide into seperate docs
<jsgotangco> ajmitch, i dont think a documentation bounty is necessary really
<jsgotangco> we hvae too much documentation at the moment
<ajmitch> jsgotangco: probably not
<jsgotangco> it just needs cleaning
<Burgundavia> to be honest, that money would be better spent on development
<jsgotangco> gnome alone needs cleaning
<Burgundavia> we have all kinds of old docs that we should do something with (I would throw them out)
<ajmitch> Burgundavia: I'd gladly accept bounty money for development :)
<ajmitch> as I'm sure many would
<jsgotangco> hmm
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, this is quite hard to locate
<jsgotangco> what was the last document edited
<Burgundavia> the edit was to the faqguide
<jsgotangco> faqguide.xml?
<ippiraman> do i need to update to breezy so it would reflect in the docs?
<Burgundavia> it was robs one that played with the revhistory
<jsgotangco> because you have a rougue sect1
* jsgotangco checks commit history
<jsgotangco> ippiraman, you don't have to update to breezy now just to work on docs
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, it validated until I committed rob's stuff with some of my own
<rob^> yeah, sorry back
<rob^> was just having dinner
<Burgundavia> likely 1688
<Burgundavia> the faqguide patch
<ippiraman> i rarely work with the gui for configuring.
<jsgotangco> i dont see the problem with that doc
<jsgotangco> hmm
<rob^> whats going on?
<Burgundavia> rob^, after I committed your patches with 2 of my changes, it doesn;t avlidate
<ippiraman> and that goes to kynaptic. i've never updated using it.
<jsgotangco> did 1687 validate?
<Burgundavia> yes
<rob^> hmm
<jsgotangco> ippiraman, kynaptic will be replaced by adept
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, did 1687 validate?
<Burgundavia> rob^, did you see 1689?
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, yes
<ippiraman> adept <-- is a GUI?
<jsgotangco> ippiraman, yes
<Burgundavia> rob^, where I think I corrected a typo of yours
<rob^> hmm
<rob^> wasn't doing that before
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, i believe your problem is prfeace.xml
<jsgotangco> preface.xml
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, that addition?>
<jsgotangco> i tried validating every single doc
<jsgotangco> that was changed
<Burgundavia> yes, that is the change
<Burgundavia> I just commented out the addition of the revhistory and it worked
<jsgotangco> ok let me svn up again just to make sure
<rob^> my first error is applications.xml:60: parser error : StartTag: invalid element name
<rob^> <<<<<<< .mine
<Burgundavia> should I commit that comment out so it validates?
<Burgundavia> rob^, you have 1689
<jsgotangco> try it i have no idea at the doc at the moment
<jsgotangco> im just smart guessing
<rob^> the preface one was 1680
<Burgundavia> rob^, your latest patches are 1688
<rob^> --- preface.xml (revision 1680)
<rob^> +++ preface.xml (working copy)
<rob^> I ment to say
<jsgotangco> ippiraman, we're talking about commit versions so don't be confused :)
<ippiraman> i'm not
<ippiraman> :-)
<rob^> 1688 is Added:
<rob^>    trunk/gnome/menus/C/users.xml
<rob^> Modified:
<rob^>    trunk/generic/faqguide/C/faqguide.xml
<rob^>    trunk/generic/faqguide/C/preface.xml
<rob^>    trunk/gnome/libs/gnome-menus-C.ent
<rob^> Log:
<rob^> make my last thing work, and apply Robs patches
<Burgundavia> I was committing from inside generic/faqguide, which is a dumb idea as it turns out
<Burgundavia> up until 1689
<rob^> I think it might have screwed something up
<Burgundavia> does 1690 validate for everybody?
<rob^> commenting out my additions to preface.xml doesn't change anything
<jsgotangco> this validates
<Burgundavia> rob^, hmm
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, but 1690 now validates for you?
<jsgotangco> it does
<Burgundavia> ok
<jsgotangco> hey jbailey packaged the whole thing in html
<Burgundavia> that is what we want, after all
<Burgundavia> rob^, what is not working for you?
<jsgotangco> f/usr/share/doc/ubuntu-docs/HTML/en/about-ubuntu/C/index.html
<jsgotangco> /usr/share/doc/ubuntu-docs/HTML/en/about-ubuntu/C/index.html
<jsgotangco> already has the updated page
<rob^> hmm
<rob^> I reverted everything now it validates
<jsgotangco> FF fonts are ugly hmmm
<Burgundavia> yes
<jsgotangco> at least the docs are now in
<jsgotangco> we'll just have to play around with yelp and sk
<Burgundavia> are you we going to display the docs in yelp?
<jsgotangco> yelp does HTML
<Burgundavia> rob^, are you doing to dig around that preface/revhistory error?
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, it should! it uses gecko
<rob^> yes
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, the question now is how to make a nice yelp front page that show our docs
<Burgundavia> cool
<Burgundavia> ye
<jsgotangco> or else we end up getting the same yelp chunk scheme
<Burgundavia> can we move preface to the back of the doc?
<Burgundavia> just before the licenses?
<Burgundavia> call it end-notes or something?
<jsgotangco> end matter
<Burgundavia> ya
<rob^> its not end notes though
<rob^> its stuff you need to know for the rest of the docuement
<rob^> like conventions
<jsgotangco> the licenses?
<Burgundavia> the contributing and  feedback can go back
<jsgotangco> oh right
<rob^> yes, they can
<Burgundavia> the first two should be merged into a better welcome page
<Burgundavia> a true preface
<rob^> Credits and Licence and the Disclaimer should stay at the top also
<Burgundavia> they are currently not though
<rob^> where they are above the abstract is ok
<Burgundavia> we should have an absolute minimum at the beginning
<rob^> as for the revhistory, I'm not sure how to move it
<Burgundavia> rob^, ping sean, he should be able to help us
<rob^> everytime I do, it doesn't validate
<jsgotangco> i believe revhistory is strictly at the top always
<rob^> yeah I think it is
<jsgotangco> the tags themselves have a heirarchy
<rob^> which sucks
<jsgotangco> well
<jsgotangco> its a book tag after all
<Burgundavia> do we need a revision history?
<jsgotangco> not a formatting tag
<jsgotangco> i would suggest
<jsgotangco> is remove the revision history on the final doc
<jsgotangco> probably make it a separate xml page
<jsgotangco> and just comment it out upon release
<rob^> can we add that to the makefile or something?
<jsgotangco> no i meant making it a separate chapter
<rob^> its in its own .xml file
<jsgotangco> yes
<jsgotangco> its just the developer's file 
<jsgotangco> and comment it out
<jsgotangco> its a nasty workaround
<jsgotangco> but it'll work
<rob^> yep
<jsgotangco> the revisions are for us anyways
* Burgundavia thinks that revision history in the doc is an ugly hack and a relic of the days before version control
<jsgotangco> well if you're printing the doc, its quite usable
<jsgotangco> but its not meant to automate
<jsgotangco> its a tag after all
<Burgundavia> then our revision history would have one entry
<Burgundavia> because then the revision history is for each release, not each change
<jsgotangco> yes it's supposed to be like that
<jsgotangco> changes let svn handle it
<Burgundavia> I say we just drop it entirely
<jsgotangco> doesn't really matter imo
<jsgotangco> we can always refer to ubuntu-doc-commit
<Burgundavia> if we keep it, it doesn't validate and that sucks
<Burgundavia> because it barfs a lot of crap on the screen
<rob^> I just sent the hack to the mailing list
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, can it then, its of no use to the reader really
<Burgundavia> rob^, ok, I will apply that
<rob^> I killed it but added a comment to tell authors where to find it
<jsgotangco> ippiraman, still around? :)
<ippiraman> yup
<ippiraman> i'm figuring out svn
<jsgotangco> great
<jsgotangco> ippiraman, its 200MB at the moment, so if you're bandwidth-challeged...
<rob^> hmm.. its starting to look pretty
<ippiraman> not a problem
<jsgotangco> rob^, should i build this to html again to check?
<rob^> I just did, it works
<rob^> you can run the validate script manually you know
<rob^> without building it each time
<jsgotangco> well yes
<jsgotangco> i want to see how it looks
<rob^> oh
<jsgotangco> (im lazy at looking other people's work)
<rob^> yeah go right ahead, there is a few more things I want to improve, but yeah
<jsgotangco> strange it takes a while
<rob^> The shade.verbatim parameter is deprecated. Use CSS instead,
<rob^> for example: pre.screen { background-color: #E0E0E0; }
<rob^> I get a lot of that when I build
<rob^> only in the last few days
<jsgotangco> nahh that's probably breezy docbook-xsl related
<rob^> yeah
<jsgotangco> hoary works fine
<rob^> probably
<jsgotangco> looks good
<jsgotangco> i got a question though
<jsgotangco> anyone can give their opinion
<jsgotangco> do we really need to include the whole GFDL license???
<rob^> yes, apparently we do
<Burgundavia> yes
<jsgotangco> is not enough we mention it and just link to a human-readable site?
<rob^> its a shame it have to take up so much of the toc though
<ippiraman> a link would suffice
<Burgundavia> we can probably link to /usr/share/common-licenses
<Burgundavia> which should have both cc-by-sa2.0 and gfdl
<rob^> it should just be: B. GNU Free Documentation License
<rob^> not the whole toc fo the gfdl
<rob^> of*
<jsgotangco> yes
<Burgundavia> what about just a toc item Authors and License?
<jsgotangco> gnome docs don't really have this
<Burgundavia> and list everything under there
<rob^> we have a Credits and License already at the start
<Burgundavia> we do?
<Burgundavia> not under yelp on my machine
<rob^> I'm looking at it now in ff
<jsgotangco> these things are just part of external entities that we have used from the start
<jsgotangco> there must be away to clean this up
<jsgotangco> but still indicating that we use these licenses
<jsgotangco> but not putting out all the text
<Burgundavia> can we chop xine-ui, mplayer and beep-media-player>/
<Burgundavia> ?
<jsgotangco> i look at it with yelp and the GFDL uses more real estate than the actual doc
<Burgundavia> the people who use those programs are not likely to read our docs
<rob^> hmm the faq just crashed my yelp
<Burgundavia> and we already have totem (with its new mozilla plugin) and rb
<rob^> totem and xine/mplayer are different
<rob^> bmp is a better xmms
<Burgundavia> I am saying we already have the entire stack, suppported and usable
<Burgundavia> we don't need to promote crackish programs like xine and mplayer
<rob^> xine and mplayer are like windvd
<jsgotangco> i perfer xine than totem
<rob^> same
<Burgundavia> yes, but this doc is not written for you
<jsgotangco> and xine has a very familiar interface
<rob^> does xine have a ff plugin or is that only mplayer?
<Burgundavia> ugh
<Burgundavia> honestly, totem and rb are much much nicer programs
<jsgotangco> sure they are
<Burgundavia> and they are supported
<rob^> well, now people have the option
<jsgotangco> and they crash to me at the moment
<Burgundavia> yes, but the people who use those programs are not likely to read our docs
<rob^> all the packages are in the breezy archives
<rob^> no, not always
<jsgotangco> i'd can beep though
<rob^> more then just grandma will read our docs
<Burgundavia> people like us google
<Burgundavia> lets be honest
<rob^> just look at #ubuntu
<rob^> not too many grandmas in there
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> the people in #ubuntu are also unlikely to reading our docs
<rob^> yet they ask and probably some use xine/mplayer/bmp
<rob^> yes, but they should be
<rob^> or will be, rather
<Burgundavia> and if they are, they will learn about the great solutions we already have installed by defualt
<rob^> look at ubuntuguide..
<rob^> how often is that mentioned in #ubuntu, despite it being taboo
<Burgundavia> again, ubuntuguide only caters to a tiny fraction of the computer using community
<rob^> yet when people ask about stuff, some people point them there
<rob^> does totem have a ff plugin?
<Burgundavia> yes
<rob^> you could replace mplayer with it
<Burgundavia> already installed by default, it should just work
<rob^> as a plugin or do you need to enable it?
<Burgundavia> it just worked
<Burgundavia> s/worked/works
<Burgundavia> installed by default
<rob^> well, we could can mplayer then
<Burgundavia> what about beep?
<Burgundavia> and xine?
<jsgotangco> can beep
<jsgotangco> rb is better
<rob^> I think we should keep beep
<Burgundavia> why?
<rob^> I prefer beep over rb
<Burgundavia> we already have rb
<jsgotangco> you
<Burgundavia> yes, but rb is already installed
<rob^> yes, people can use it, but when someone says "can I have one that looks like winamp?" there is beep
<rob^> a lot of people hate rb
<rob^> me included
<Burgundavia> as do I, but a lot of people really like that interface
<Burgundavia> my gf (a completely non-technical user), likes it
<rob^> well, maybe you could change the question to "how to I install winamp-like music player" or something to that effect
<rob^> *do
<Burgundavia> ugh
<jsgotangco> heh
<jsgotangco> i told you guys about this before
<jsgotangco> open up universe in docs
<jsgotangco> and you open up a lot of cans of worms
<jsgotangco> (no offense meant to MOTU)
<rob^> maybe, but half of the stuff in the faq is from universe/multiverse
<jsgotangco> and those things are not officially supported
<rob^> cowbell, streamtuner, audacity and heaps more
<Burgundavia> we are trying to restrict it
<Burgundavia> because nothing exists in main that duplicates them
<jsgotangco> sure people will have nice systems but they'll consist of crack
<jsgotangco> which will be a support issue
<jsgotangco> and have people filing bugs in the wrong place probably
<rob^> well, to do what your saying we will have to remove heaps of stuff
<Burgundavia> no
<jsgotangco> rob^, this is much like restricted formats but only gentler
<jsgotangco> im not saying we remove it this late in the game either
<Burgundavia> we should only talk about something if there is no duplicative thing in main
<rob^> so, replace beep with xmms then?
<jsgotangco> xmms is much worse really
<Burgundavia> ouch
<Burgundavia> muine if anything
<rob^> right, but they are the only winamp ones
<jsgotangco> do people really still use winamp?
<jsgotangco> wmp actually works for me
<Burgundavia> some people even like it
<rob^> I wouldn't know, but people like the interface
<rob^> I hate the fact xmms is gtk1
<Burgundavia> I used to
<Burgundavia> until I discovered muine and totem
<jsgotangco> its a relic that needs to be buried
<jsgotangco> (not to mention Tux Magazine has xmms as the reader's choice)
<Burgundavia> there isn't a dvd/movie player in existance with a better interface than totem
<rob^> eww muine is way too simple
<Burgundavia> rob^, umm, most people want simple
<Burgundavia> it doesn't get in the way
<jsgotangco> muine doesn't even hog space
<rob^> for that they can use the defaults
<jsgotangco> just press esc
<rob^> doesnt work
<Burgundavia> click on the icon in the notfication area
<rob^> what icon?
<jsgotangco> the music note
<Burgundavia> you running breezy or hoary?
<rob^> breezy
<jsgotangco> muine is in universe
<Burgundavia> oh, muine notification icon is borked in breezy
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, icon got split into a seperate package in breezy
<jsgotangco> ewww
<jsgotangco> i haven't go universe here at the moment
<jsgotangco> no reason really
<Burgundavia> so, the final verdict on xine, mplayer and beep?
<jsgotangco> can beep
<jsgotangco> i'd keep xine really
<rob^> hmm
<Burgundavia> but totem does the same job as xine
<rob^> is muine in main?
<Burgundavia> no, universe
<jsgotangco> hmm totem crashes on me right now
<rob^> so either muine or beep..
<jsgotangco> err what is the multimedia systems selector that totem wants so much?
<jsgotangco> oh wait
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, huh?
<rob^> keep xine, can mplayer
<Burgundavia> that selects the backend for gstreamer
<rob^> choose either beep or muine
<rob^> I'd prefer beep
<rob^> it does more
<jsgotangco> totem crashed on me and said i had to set the output from multimedia systems selector
<rob^> System -> preferences -> multimedia systems selector
<jsgotangco> rob^, yes
* Burgundavia really doesn't understand people that want to skin app individually
<jsgotangco> my point is that totem didnt do that in the first place
<rob^> yeah
<rob^> and xine just works
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, you have totem-gstreamer or totem-xine?
<jsgotangco> dont worry it works now
<jsgotangco> i had to fix up gstreamer
<Burgundavia> what about this compromise?
<rob^> keep xine, can mplayer
<jsgotangco> its not the most beautiful app in gnome really, but its what we have
<jsgotangco> i still we keep xine
<Burgundavia> we mention all the other music/movie playing apps out there
<rob^> I'd like to keep beep
<Burgundavia> under one big heading
<Burgundavia> How do I install other music playing applications?
<rob^> maybe, but it might be ugly and doesn't explain anything
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, it would be a good compromise to use Totem first and foremost and just point to other apps if they dont like the default
<Burgundavia> neither does us cherrypicking certain apps
<jsgotangco> hmm
<jsgotangco> actually
<jsgotangco> i almost forgot
<Burgundavia> currently the faqguide doesn't even mention totem
<jsgotangco> i prefer VLC more than Xine
<Burgundavia> or how to play movies
<Burgundavia> there are just so many crackish apps out there to choose from
<jsgotangco> vlc is less cracked than xine
* jsgotangco keeps quiet
<Burgundavia> anything other than what we ship by default is crack
<rob^> man this is painful
<rob^> I guess the answers simple, go with the defaults
<rob^> rb, totem
<rob^> maybe explain totem-gstreamer/totem-xine though
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> I am just going to say to install totem-xine
<rob^> yep
<Burgundavia> should I add something about how to find other applications?
<rob^> no, I wouldn't bother
<Burgundavia> ok
<Burgundavia> well, I need to crash
<Burgundavia> night all
<jsgotangco> night
<jsgotangco> now that Corey has crashed i have the svn all for myself now
<rob^> not yet you dont :)
<rob^> well, kinda
<jsgotangco> you don't have an account atm
<rob^> I cant commit
<rob^> I do, I just cant access it
<jsgotangco> unless mdke or sean comes in
* jsgotangco begans deleting faqguide entries
<rob^> got another patch for you
<rob^> ah fudge, I made a spelling mistake
<rob^> I'll fix it after you commit it
<jsgotangco> doh
<jsgotangco> why not just revert
<rob^> wont that remove all my changes?
<jsgotangco> yeah :)
<jsgotangco> hold on lemme apply that
<rob^> I just need to change a "t" to a "d"
<jsgotangco> its not on my email yet
<rob^> I've sent it :)
<jsgotangco> ahh there
<jsgotangco> err
<jsgotangco> there's no attachment
<rob^> oops
<jsgotangco> err
<jsgotangco> did you validate first?
<rob^> yes, just forgot to attach the patch
<rob^> done
<jsgotangco> ok hold on
<jsgotangco> it gets rejected?
<rob^> change the d back to a t and see what happens?
<jsgotangco> d?
<rob^> how to I use sudo?
<rob^> that line
<jsgotangco> Reversed (or previously applied) patch detected! Assume -R [n] 
<rob^> wtf?
<jsgotangco> reversed patch?
<rob^> hmm, must have been a commit between patches
<jsgotangco> did you svn up before the patch?
<rob^> not recently
<jsgotangco> ok you should be in 1695 now
<rob^> still in 1690
<rob^> fark
<jsgotangco> dohhh
<jsgotangco> i think corey made a ton of changes
<rob^> about 5 by the looks
<rob^> :)
<jsgotangco> yes
<jsgotangco> he made changes, removed gstreamer backend, added totom-xine, etc.
<rob^> ok, try this one
<jsgotangco> ok waiting
<jsgotangco> ok this works
<rob^> :) yay
<jsgotangco> ok svn up
<rob^> hmm
<rob^> G    generic/faqguide/C/faqguide.xml
<rob^> is that right?
<rob^> ok, one more diff
<rob^> then I'll leave you alone
<jsgotangco> heh
<rob^> thanks :)
<jsgotangco> heh sorry i will apply it now
<jsgotangco> (i was busy finishing something)
<rob^> http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/New_Venice
<rob^> sick
<rob^> thanks
<jsgotangco> applied
<rob^> cheers
<jsgotangco> send me a blue tongue
<rob^> lizard?
<jsgotangco> beer heh
<jsgotangco> ok i guess i'm done for today
<jsgotangco> man im tired
<rob^> yeah
<rob^> same
<jsgotangco> i have yet to finish my slides for linuxworld
<jsgotangco> grr
<ippiraman> hope to see you there jsgotangco
<rob^> hows hacking my presentation going?
<jsgotangco> oh so you're going to LinuxWorld
<jsgotangco> rob^, i've added some
<rob^> cool
<jsgotangco> i have two talks at the moment
<ippiraman> it's on my sked. but i can't guarantee
<rob^> when is the next one?
<jsgotangco> this tuesday, i'll be speaking in an all-girls college which should be nice
<rob^> heh
<ippiraman> drool
* ippiraman drool
<jsgotangco> if i can make them scream over GAIM, then i'm good
<rob^> hmm, the site says april 3-6 2006
<jsgotangco> err
<jsgotangco> no
<ippiraman> btw, is there webcam support for gaim?
<jsgotangco> not LinuxWorld in USA
<rob^> ah
<jsgotangco> that's too big and i'm too small for that
<rob^> that explains it :)
<rob^> haha
<jsgotangco> i would even call it an achievement if i get to talk in LCA
<jsgotangco> you might want to check jbailey's package for ubuntu-doc in breezy
<jsgotangco> its all the html
<rob^> its meant to be html isn't is?
<jsgotangco> yes but the faqguide isn't css'ed yet
<jsgotangco> but the about ubuntu is now
<rob^> is the package in the repos yet?
<jsgotangco> yes
<jsgotangco> just update then upgrade
<rob^> yep
<jsgotangco> alright im going to the bar
<jsgotangco> have a nice weekend
<ippiraman> goog
<rob^> cay
<rob^> have a beer for me
<jsgotangco> ill just think about other stuff later
<jsgotangco> hehe
<rob^> cya
<ippiraman> ok
<rob^> where are our docs located on the system?
<jsgotangco> ippiraman, send me an email just in case you want to get started
<ippiraman> ok
<jsgotangco> unfortunately, we're in the middle of a deadline so...
<jsgotangco> rob^, should be at /usr/share/doc/ubuntu-docs/
<rob^> hmm, the Description of the ubuntu-docs package needs to be updated
<jsgotangco> man FF fonts are sick
<rob^> yeah
<rob^> hmm, that faq guide is a little outdated..
<rob^> so is the Help Topics page in yelp
<ippiraman> i'm out for now
<rob^> ok night all
<mgalvin> morning all
<jsgotangco> hey mgalvin
<jsgotangco> mgalvin: good news, jbailey has started packaging
<mgalvin> yup :)
<jsgotangco> we now have some rudimentary docs in breezy now
<mgalvin> i know, i was talking to him about it yesterday
<jsgotangco> ah right when i was asleep
<jsgotangco> hehe
<mgalvin> yea i saw the upload, sweet
<jbailey> mgalvin, jsgotangco: Now I think it mostly needs updating and linking against the pieces that need to look at it.
<mgalvin> cool
<jbailey> I don't know how much of it we'll actually get done for Breezy, but hopefully I can stay with you guys and take care of the hard grunt stuff.
<mgalvin> jbailey: thanks for getting all this done and helping us out
<jsgotangco> oh for sure what's on svn won't make it all
<jsgotangco> some of the docs are just stagnant
<jbailey> Well, I was sort of wondering if I should ask mdz to drop the doc freeze for Breezy.
<jsgotangco> it would buy us time
<jbailey> It'll be a bit harder on translators, but it seems better to be able to keep doing updates right to the end for the documentation package so that we can do little cleanups/changes.
<mgalvin> it would allow us to get more done
<jsgotangco> yes
<jbailey> Things like the release notes have to be updated until the day of the release anyway.
<jbailey> There are things we just won't know until release candidate testing time.
<jsgotangco> thats true 
<jbailey> I'll approach him about that later.
<jbailey> It's easier now that we've got the docs in there. =)
<mgalvin> yup, great
<jsgotangco> we've been updating the faqguide today while you were sleeping...
<jsgotangco> so a new html should be built
<mgalvin> say i know this it OT, but have either of you tried using vmware on breezy? it will not work for me
<mgalvin> works in hoary fine, i only ask b/c i may be able to get breezy onto 70 corp laptops if i can get vmware to work on it
<jsgotangco> sorry
<jsgotangco> i should really learn scrollkeeper and packaging after breezy
<jbailey> mgalvin: Add the 'BusLogic' driver to /etc/mkinitramfs/modules and rebuild the initramfs
<jbailey> http://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=13521
<jbailey> The more interesting details are in the referred bug, 11237
<mgalvin> jbailey: not breezy in vmware... vmware install on breezy to run windows on top of breezy
<mgalvin> vmware does not compile b/c the kernel uses gcc3.4 and it complains about gcc4, the when i force it to use gcc3.4, it just hangs
<jbailey> Oh, no idea then, sorry.
<Liz> ae there many changes or differences in breezy to warrant updating to it?
<mgalvin> no prob, thnx anyway for the pointer
<mgalvin> i'll oke at it a bit more
<jbailey> Liz: Yes there's alot changed, but it's not released yet.
<Liz> ae = are
<mgalvin> yes
<jbailey> Liz: So if you're not comforatable with your system being somewhat in flux, don't do it yet.
* jbailey afk's for a bit
<Liz> oh i know its not released yet..just wondering if there were alot more differences to the last one
<jsgotangco> especially if don't like your laptop's touchpad to go like 2cm per slide of your finger
<jsgotangco> its painfullll
<jsgotangco> good thing i have accupoint as well
<Liz> i dont like touchpads too much
<Liz> they kinda annoy me..i always conenct a mouse and use that
<mgalvin> bbl
<Liz> bedtime
<Liz> nite all
<jsgotangco> hey jjesse
<jsgotangco> night
#ubuntu-doc 2005-09-08
<Madpilot> hi all
<ajmitch> hi Madpilot 
<Madpilot> hi ajmitch
<Madpilot> will running SVN & CVS on the same box (but for completely different projects) cause any problems?
<Madpilot> (I'm guessing no, but...)
<ajmitch> nope, no problems
<Madpilot> figured as much. thanks
<Madpilot> using svn for the ubuntu docs stuff, but Screem uses CVS for website management, and I want to try that out
<Madpilot> does the Breezy version of Yelp have a proper search function? that's one thing the Windows help stuff did well, was indexing & searching...
<Burglaptop> hey all
<Burglaptop> I may drop off again due to the bad connection here
<Madpilot> hi Burglaptop - where is "here"?
<Burglaptop> C's place
<Madpilot> thought there was a decent connection there?
<Burglaptop> the one decent one I cannot seem to get
<Burglaptop> did you see that jeffsch checked in a .css file for the faqguide?
<Madpilot> ah well. generous neighbours go away for long weekends, I guess ;)
<Burglaptop> yes
<Madpilot> just a sec, let me update my -doc svn
<Burglaptop> check it out, I have to go to bed now
<Madpilot> OK. good night
<rob^> anyone here?
<Madpilot> not really, I'm just leaving...
<rob^> just wondering if anyone got my patch, it hasn't been applied yet
<Madpilot> when did you send the email?
<rob^> 1049k
<Madpilot> give me a minute, my net connection is being stupid (and glacially slow...)
<Madpilot> is that the global.net patch?
<rob^> or yep
<rob^> heh
<rob^> yes
<Madpilot> it hit the list a while ago, no other messages about applying it
<Madpilot> .ent, even...
<Madpilot> no commit access here, someone will get to it later, I guess
<jeffsch> i'll do it
<rob^> thanks jeffsch 
<rob^> I hope the send me a new password soon
<jeffsch> in the meantime, can you guys try building the faqguide?
<jeffsch> i just finished the customization layer
<rob^> yeah, apply it then I will
<rob^> I need to update to get the css file
<Madpilot> jeffsch: was that your css file I saw during svn up earlier?
<jeffsch> yeah
* Madpilot just realized he'd had a wiki page open for editing... for the last four hours or so...
<Madpilot> closed that... oops
<Madpilot> anyway, I do need sleep. good night, all
<rob^> night Madpilot 
<jeffsch> ok rob^, done
<rob^> hmm.. sun rpc on 127.0.0.1:32771
<rob^> thanks
<rob^> hey jeffsch, you still there?
<jeffsch> yep
<rob^> the css looks good
<rob^> the only thing is the distance between the last answer and the next question, I think they are a little too close
<rob^> its mainly the first question actually
<rob^> for example:
<rob^> 8. How do I install a DVD ripper (dvd::rip)?
<rob^> 1. 	
<rob^> How do I install multimedia codecs?
<rob^> under music and movies
<rob^> feel a little too close
<jeffsch> yeah
<rob^> gee I can crap on a bit sometimes
<rob^> the faq guide keeps crashing yelp though..
<rob^> yelp in breezy that is
<rob^> hmm chapter 2 (installing applications), the last two questions (2.5 and 2.6), the gap between the question and the answer is larger then the rest also
<rob^> which might be actually normal, and the beginning of that chapter is too small..
<jeffsch> the faqguide.xml crashes yelp? that's normal. yelp is not yet finished.
<rob^> yeah
<jsgotangco> hey guys
<ajmitch> hi jsgotangco 
#ubuntu-doc 2005-09-09
<Burglaptop> robitaille, did you have any thoughts on the Quicktour?
<Madpilot> ah, life! hi weasel
<Burglaptop> hey
<robitaille> Burglaptop:  haven't looked at quicktop is a long while.  Where is the latest version?
<robitaille> s/quicktop/quicktour
<jsgotangco> hey all
<Madpilot> robitaille: quicktour has been added to the svn now (is it right to call it an archive?)
<jsgotangco> mmm?
<Madpilot> anyone here?
<Madpilot> this --> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kurdish  <-- just arrived in the wiki, it has no real content WRT Ubuntu that I can see...
<Madpilot> a Kurdish-language version would be cool, but do we really need a huge block of sociological info and statistics about Kurds & Kurdish?
<GranMaestro> Hi everybody
<GranMaestro> Anybody seen matthew around?
<robitaille> jbailey:  have you seen bug #14703 ?  "ubuntu-quickguide is missing"
<jbailey> robitaille: ogra pointed it out to me earlier.
<jbailey> But quickguide is gone now, right?
<Burglaptop> aren
<Burglaptop> t we busy today
<Burglaptop>  robitaille, can you confirm something for me?
<Burglaptop> robitaille, have you changed anything to do with svg's?
<robitaille> Burglaptop:  svg?  changed?   confused...
<robitaille> I usually use inkscape to loog at svg's
<robitaille> s/loog/look
<Burglaptop> robitaille, have you installed inkscape on your laptop?
<robitaille> (still don't like that keyboard on that laptop)
<Burglaptop> can you confirm that this bug still exists? http://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=8742
<robitaille> one sec
<robitaille> Burglaptop:  in Nautilus, if I click on a svg file, it opens firefox. So it seems the bug is still around
<Burglaptop> robitaille, ok, reopening
<DWoodley> Hello
<corey_> salut
<DWoodley> How can I start helping out with documentation?
<jbailey> DWoodley: What are you most interested in?
<DWoodley> Just normal userguide stuff
<DWoodley> Just the normal parts of describing Ubuntu and the like
#ubuntu-doc 2005-09-10
<Madpilot> oook
<jsgotangco> hey guys
<Madpilot> hi
<Madpilot> hey corey_ why the change of nick?
<corey_> flaky wireless here
<Burglaptop> so sometimes I get disconnected and then have to reconnect
<Madpilot> ghost to the rescue, huh?
<Madpilot> Burglaptop: Beeb article that I was going to email to you: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/click_online/4208658.stm
<Burglaptop> thanks
<jsgotangco> brb lunch
<Burglaptop> jsg_lunch, you there?
<Burglaptop> jsg_lunch, can you commit something for me?
<jsgotangco> Burglaptop, sure whats up
<jsgotangco> i just bought some old cables at the nearby pc shop
<jsgotangco> Burglaptop, did you see ShaunM's email requesting for contributors on the gnome user guide?
<Burglaptop> yes
<Burglaptop> I have a quick tour diff
<Madpilot> that getting close to finished?
<jsgotangco> what happened to your account
<Burglaptop> not at my desktop machine
<jsgotangco> ahhh
<jsgotangco> fire away
<Burglaptop> Madpilot, working on it
<Madpilot> screenshots yet?
<Burglaptop> no
<Burglaptop> going to shot after the preview install
<jsgotangco> jbailey said he might request mdz to drop the freeze but we're not too optimistic about it
<Burglaptop> which freeze?
<jsgotangco> doc
<Burglaptop> the string one?
<jsgotangco> yes
<Burglaptop> jsgotangco, sent. Note that the diff is against just quicktour.html
<jsgotangco> lemme check
<jsgotangco> done
<Burglaptop> thanks
<Burglaptop> oh, and check it out, I need some feedbackl
<jsgotangco> looking at it now
<Madpilot> "is released", not "is releases" - 3rd bullet point!
<Madpilot> why no link to gnome-look.org? it's much better organized that art.gnome...
<Burglaptop> ummm
<Burglaptop> art.gnome is a much nicer site and ties in with gnome-art
<Madpilot> heh... and gnome-look seems to be down again anyway... I still think it's got the better interface of the two
<mpt> Anyone here on Hoary?
<Madpilot> me
<mpt> Madpilot: What does "cat /etc/issue" return for you?
<jsgotangco> gnome-look is a complete ripoff of kde-look
<Madpilot> "Ubuntu 5.04 "Hoary Hedgehog" \n \l"
<mpt> thanks Madpilot
<Madpilot> complete with those \n \l bits that look like errors - what are they?
<mpt> \n is a new line for some reason
<mpt> I don't know what \l is
<mpt> (linefeed?)
<Madpilot> there is a blank line below that text, before I get my prompt back...
<mpt> yeah, I think that's accidental
<Madpilot> what is /etc/issue supposed to be, anyway?
<Burglaptop> your current distro version
<Madpilot> obvously... :)
<Madpilot> jsgotangco: gnome-look.org & kde-look are run by the same folks - ping gnome-look.org and the results come back from kde-look.org...
<Burglaptop> art.gnome.org runs rubyonrails
<Burglaptop> if you run breezy, there is an app called gnome-art that pulls out of the art.gnome.org
<Madpilot> ah, that's cool
<Burglaptop> it is built on ruby, which we don't ship by default, otherwise we would probably ship it by defau't
<mpt> ok, next job is to get the total amount of physical memory
<Madpilot> mpt: "free"?
<mpt> thanks Madpilot, that's a good start
<Madpilot> brian@warbard:~/ubuntu-doc$ free
<Madpilot>              total       used       free     shared    buffers     cached
<Madpilot> Mem:       1036488     771928     264560          0      51112     437804
<Madpilot> -/+ buffers/cache:     283012     753476
<Madpilot> Swap:            0          0          0
<Madpilot> pardon the dump, but...
<mpt> so I'm only interested in the second word of the second line...
<Burglaptop> mpt, why do you want aboutubuntu to have this info
<Burglaptop> ?
<Madpilot> not sure what you mean?
<mpt> Burglaptop: Because it's basic information about the computer
<mpt> Amount of memory, processor speed, and a button taking you to the Device Manager
<Burglaptop> mpt, is this for reporting>
<Burglaptop> ah
<mpt> fwiw, Windows and OS X both have this in their About boxes
<Burglaptop> you mean the device database?
<mpt> no, System > Administration > Device Manager
<Burglaptop> ok
<Madpilot> Burglaptop: no, if you pull up the "About Windows" bumpf it includes some mem/CPU info
<Burglaptop> ya
<Burglaptop> and the device manager has a link to the device database, so all is not lost
<jsgotangco> HAL device manager?
<Burglaptop> jsgotangco, yes
<Burglaptop> it drops the HAL part for Breezy
<jsgotangco> i didnt notice
* jsgotangco checks
<jsgotangco> its prety spartan atm
<Madpilot> hi robitaille
<robitaille> hi Madpilot 
<Burglaptop> anybody got any idea how I would search the entire archive for any 0ubuntu* packages?
<Burglaptop> I want to figure out how much Ubuntu is ahead fo Debina
<Burglaptop> and if it grew in the Breezy cycle
<Madpilot> wow, your typing gets even worse than usual when you're on the laptop, doesn't it? ;)
<Burglaptop> I am sitting on a couch, the greatest place to use a laptop in the world
<Madpilot> so you can cook important parts of yourself at the same time?
<Burglaptop> hey, unlike robitaille, I have no plans on having any kids
<robitaille> Burglaptop,  you're stilll young... just wait a few more years :)
* Burglaptop doubts it
* Madpilot thinks that cooking bits is a bad idea, regardless of what you intend to do with them...
<robitaille> download http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/dists/breezy/main/binary-i386/Packages.gz
<robitaille> then run this command
<robitaille> zgrep "Filename.*ubuntu.*" Packages.gz
<robitaille> that should give you most ubuntu-modified packages
<Burglaptop> hmm, ok
<Burglaptop> only for main
<Madpilot> run it without the trailing dot behind 'ubuntu' as well?
<Burglaptop> http://kvota.net/sarma/
<Burglaptop> ya
<robitaille> you will the dot after ubuntu as well for regex to work properly.    universe, multiverse, restricted also have their own Packages.gz as well
<robitaille> I'm sure there is a better way via apt-cache....
<Burglaptop> ya
<jsgotangco> go blam
<jsgotangco> it goes 100% when i try to close it just now
<Burglaptop> hmm, half the packages in main are modified by us
<Burglaptop> 698 in main are newer than those in debian
<Madpilot> Burglaptop: what's at that URL you just posted, anyway? still not loading here...
<Burglaptop> sarma, the live doc editor that was funded by Google for SoC
<robitaille> Madpilot,  works here...
<Madpilot> live doc editor? online whiteboard stuff?
<robitaille> the question is how many of these 698 are stuff that are also in sid at this point in time; thus will be in breezy+1 without patching.  I have no idea...
<Burglaptop> yes
<Burglaptop> well, all of gnome 2.12 is not yet in sid
<Burglaptop> and all the xorg stuff
<Madpilot> gunning for bragging rights over Debian, are we?
<Burglaptop> no, just interested where our delta is at
<Burglaptop> Madpilot, sarma is a live doc editor
<Madpilot> where our <what> is at?
<Burglaptop> for whiteboarding, check out inkboard, which is also a SoC project
<Burglaptop> and searchparty, another SoC project. This one allows you to share your searches with other people and what links they found useful
<Burglaptop> http://live.gnome.org/SummerOfCode
<robitaille> http://people.ubuntu.com/~scott/patches/  is the complete list of patches breezy vs sid
<Burglaptop> yes
<Burglaptop> Madpilot, our delta, the difference between us and Debian sid
<Madpilot> Burglaptop: OK. where on earch does 'delta' come from?
<robitaille> a talk from sabdfl
<Madpilot> if it's from Mark, I'll guess it's a term used in the business/finance world - it sounds like an MBA-ish phrase!
<Burglaptop> no it is not
<Madpilot> no?
<jsgotangco> its a common term
<robitaille> it's a scientific term.... think vectors, and differences between 2 of them going away from each other
<Madpilot> delta v... right... just corrupted into jargon... ;)
<robitaille> it's also a jargon-word for a spoon... 
<robitaille> at least this spoon
<Madpilot> what?
<Burglaptop> our spoon is not sharp and pointed
<Burglaptop> Madpilot, you know what a fork is, right?
<Burglaptop> it has evil connotations
<Burglaptop> thus Ubuntu is a "spoon" of Debian
<Madpilot> OK, I've heard the "ubuntu spoon" joke before, just didn't connect it with robitaille's comment
<Madpilot> I'm off to sleep. good night, all
<jsgotangco> night
<jsgotangco> wow jeffsch is ripping through the faqguide at the moment
<Burglaptop> yes
<Burglaptop> I like his edit summaries
<Burglaptop> http://getstupid.biz/ignorance.html
<jsgotangco> what does evolution-webcal do?
<jsgotangco> oh ical
<Burglaptop> night all
<jsgotangco> night corey
<rob^2> rob^, you smell!
<jsgotangco> heh
<jsgotangco> beagle is nice
<rob^2> yes, it is
<jsgotangco> it ran smoothly in breezy
<rob^2> yep
<jsgotangco> i just got to try out some mono apps in breezy today
<jsgotangco> never had the time to do so
<rob^2> yeah..
<jsgotangco> gyah we seemed to have broken edubuntu
<jsgotangco> hmm
<jsgotangco> we actually broke ubuntu-desktop
<jsgotangco> jbailey, http://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=14709
<DWoodley> HI
<mpt> hello
<rwabel> Burgundavia: did you add to the webcam howto, that spca is now in breezy?
<Burgundavia> rwabel, no idea and I didn't add it
<rwabel> mhh I'm just curious, because I would love to know how he got the webcam working in breezy without installing spca
<rwabel> I love it, when it only shows: adsl-213-190-44-43 instead of an author :-)
<Burgundavia> adsl is the auto importer from the old wiki
<rwabel> ah ok
<Burgundavia> and the udu wiki as well
<rwabel> udu?
<Madpilot> Ubuntu Down Under
<rwabel> thanks madpilot
<Burgundavia> rob^, ping
<rob^> Burgundavia, ping
<rob^> err pong
<Burgundavia> rob^, Installing Applications section in the faqguide
<Burgundavia> it is way too wordy, can it be cut down
<Burgundavia> ?
<rob^> maybe, I cut it down by half already
<Burgundavia> ouch
<rob^> yeah I know
<Burgundavia> it looks like one giant block and my eyes glaze over about 25 words in
<rob^> I think the synaptic/kynaptic section says only what it needs to
<rob^> the first question was twice that size though
<Burgundavia> can we just mention repos as part of the 2nd question?
<rob^> yea, I suppose we could
<rob^> maybe take some key info from the first question and work it into the second?
<Burgundavia> ya
<Burgundavia> I don't want to step on too many toes
<rob^> heh
<rob^> no, both you and jeffsch are doing a good job
<rob^> I'll bbl gotta drop my son off at day care..
<Burgundavia> ok
#ubuntu-doc 2005-09-11
<rob^> couple of patches sent to the list, bbl
<Burgundavia> rob^, applied
<mpt> Ugh ... yelp is very much slower under breezy
<jsgotangco> jbailey, ping?
<jbailey> jsgotangco: Hey!
<jbailey> I'm back now. =)
<Madpilot> dog, there's a bumper crop of idiots over on #ubuntu tonight...
<Madpilot> just had to vent, be back later...
<jsgotangco> jbailey, i guess you already know the ubuntu-quickguide breakage :)
<jbailey> Yup, but that's not one of the docs you guys are doing for breezy, right?
<jbailey> mdz dropped it from ubuntu-standard today.
<jsgotangco> right 
<jbailey> Cool, so that's all sorted out then.
<jbailey> I'm going to resend the request to get write access to the ubuntu-docs repo, it hasn't come through yet.
<jsgotangco> you emailed elmo?
<jbailey> Yes.
<jbailey> But they've just moved to a queue-based system, so I've resent it to that.
<jsgotangco> nice
<jsgotangco> jeffsch, ping?
<jbailey> I will ask mdz tomorrow about updating documentation until the release date.  Is there anything else I need to handle while you guys are asleep? =)
<jbailey> (It's midnight here. *g*)
<jsgotangco> ahh
<jsgotangco> hmm no just cleaning up some docs atm
<jsgotangco> 2 days to go anyways
<jsgotangco> hmm just one final question
<jsgotangco> who's going to do the yelp/scrollkeeper work?
<jbailey> I suspect I will be.
<jbailey> I have main upload privs, so it makes sense, I think.
<jsgotangco> ok would you be able to teach me or other guys here about this after the chaos? (as well as the packaging part)
<jbailey> I shall do my best. =)  I'm still not sure who all the 'guys around here' are.
<jsgotangco> oh the active ones are just a handful (me, Burgundavia, jeffsch, mgalvin, jjesse, mdke)
<jsgotangco> mpt helps as well
<jsgotangco> oh and rob^ 
<jsgotangco> (sorry rob^ i fogot about you_
<jsgotangco> im gonna grab lunch first brb =)
<ajmitch> jbailey: I just recently started lurking
<jbailey> ajmitch: Ah, the ever present Andrew. =)
* jbailey ducks.
<ajmitch> of course ;)
<ajmitch> I've had the misfortune of writing docs in the past
<jbailey> I don't mind writing docs.  I'm even passably good at it.
<jbailey> There's usually just so much to do otherwise, too.
<ajmitch> yeah
<ajmitch> MOTU work is surprisingly time-consuming
<jsgotangco> hmm
<jbailey> I imagine.
<jbailey> jsgotangco: Oh, that remnds me...  Release notes.
<jbailey> Is there a wiki page for it yet?
<jbailey> If not, do you mind if I create one and announce it?
<jsgotangco> jbailey, please do, the problem i have at the moment is i dont know where to start and what features, etc.
<jbailey> I suspect the right thing to start with is to just get notes from the various uploaders  on things that they know already will be an issue when upgrading.
<jsgotangco> hmm and known bugs perhaps?
<jsgotangco> the draft 2.12 release notes have such
<jbailey> 2.12?
<jbailey> Oh, you mean gnome?
<jbailey> Status of sending notification mails:
<jsgotangco> yes the one being done by luis (i think its already finished)
<jbailey> [en]  DanielHolbach, DanielRobitaille, AndrewMitchell: Mail sent OK
<jbailey> ajmitch: Stalker.
<ajmitch> jbailey: .* is great
<jsgotangco> he's subscribed to all the wiki pages
<jbailey> jsgotangco: This doesn't refute my statement in any way...
<ajmitch> of course not
<ajmitch> now I just have to find out where you live & maybe visit :)
<jbailey> ajmitch: It's about 20 minutes from the UBZ site.
<jbailey> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BreezyReleaseNotes
<jsgotangco> oh so you're in motreal
<ajmitch> nice
<jbailey> jsgotangco: Yup
<jbailey> ajmitch: Yeah, I'll be sleeping at home. =)
<jsgotangco> ajmitch, we have an alternative place just in case
<ajmitch> jsgotangco: great, I'm still holding out for sponsorship, which closes in a couple of days
<ajmitch> so I might find out if I'm going in a few weeks
<jsgotangco> same here
<jsgotangco> *cross fingers*
<LaserJock> Hi! I have a question about the docs projects. Do they coenside with the Ubuntu releases?
<jsgotangco> LaserJock, yes
<jsgotangco> LaserJock, but we'll have previews in later milestones for sure
<jsgotangco> LaserJock, http://doc.ubuntu.com has some previews at the moment
<jbailey> jsgotangco: Where are you?
<LaserJock> How long does it take to do the docs? I mean, there seems to be a fair amount of fluidity in Breezy still. How do you handle changes even at the end?
<jsgotangco> LaserJock, we have a freeze date, unfortunately, it doesn't work well with docs
<jsgotangco> jbailey, Manila, Philippines
<jbailey> Cool.
<jsgotangco> LaserJock, we only know definite changes by Preview Freeze (although not always the case)
<jsgotangco> LaserJock, unless the changes are sweeping, we edit docs as the build goes..
<jeffsch> jsgotangco: you called?
<jsgotangco> jeffsch, yep if you're not busy
<jeffsch> shoot
<jsgotangco> jeffsch, i was trying to rip off your html/pdf script for edubuntu but no success i wanted to ask how big a work it would be to include edubuntu in our big make file
<jsgotangco> and have results go to build
<jsgotangco> and just the results to ogra
<jeffsch> you want html and pdf, or just html?
<jsgotangco> we prefer both
<jsgotangco> i know the pdf needs apache fop
<jsgotangco> ill just grab a sandwhich brb
<LaserJock> I don't suppose one of you wiki gurus could drop by http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuScientists and see if the formatting is correct? I made quite a few changes and I was my first wiki edit
<jbailey> Time for bed.  See you later!
<jeffsch> LaserJock: if it looks good to you, then the formatting is correct
<LaserJock> lol, OK
<jeffsch> :)
<LaserJock> well, there were a bunch of links to wiki pages that didn't exist and so I removed those. I was hoping that they weren't there for a reason
<jeffsch> jsgotangco: are you there?
<jsgotangco> hi
<jsgotangco> jeffsch, sorry i was just trying to do something on the other laptop
<jeffsch> np
<jsgotangco> whats up
<jeffsch> i took a look at edubuntu files
<jeffsch> i don't think it's a good idea to add edubuntu to our big makefile
<jeffsch> edubuntu should have its own
<jsgotangco> oh i don't mind really, i just couldn't make it work (add images for example)
<jsgotangco> i will take a look again at the big makefile and see how it works
<jeffsch> getting the images into a pdf is a bit more work than getting them into html
<jsgotangco> would the html be easier? the pdf can be done afterwards
<jeffsch> iirc, it's not just the makefile: you need a custom xslt also
<jsgotangco> i see
<jeffsch> html would be easier, for sure
<jeffsch> when do you need it by?
<jsgotangco> we're not really contrained by the date, ogra has no freeze for edubuntu
<jeffsch> ok. i try to come up with something by the end of next weekend
<jsgotangco> gee thanks jeff i appreciate that
<jsgotangco> im just stumped on how the images are not included at all
<jeffsch> say, do you know why the language is 'C' instead of 'en'?
<jsgotangco> its the gnome convention right?
<jeffsch> yeah, as far as i know
<jeffsch> but i don't know why they do it
<jsgotangco> that's the only thing i know
<jsgotangco> en is much better i guess
<jeffsch> i think the only reason we use C is because gnome does
<jeffsch> we even seem to use C on the kde docs
<jsgotangco> hmmm lemme switch first
<Madpilot> hi robitaille
<robitaille> hello Madpilot 
<Madpilot> remind me where the Breezy timetable wiki page is? can't find it right now...
<robitaille> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BreezyReleaseSchedule
<Madpilot> thanks. Trying not to get the flu here, neurons not firing like they should be...
<Burgundavia> ok, random cool thing
<Burgundavia> http://www.geekzone.co.nz/content.asp?contentid=5142
<Madpilot> that is very cool. I want a monitor that I can just thumbtack to the wall & use!
<Madpilot> OK, that's wierd. O'Reilly publish *two* different books, both titled "Linux Cookbook"... 
<rob^> anyone around?
<Burgundavia> yes
<jsgotangco> hi
<jsgotangco> seems someone is messing up the wiki again
<rob^> whats elmos email address, I need to get this access to svn fixed up
<Burgundavia> oh?
<Burgundavia> I haven't editing much in about a month
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, LooksLikeThis
<jsgotangco> HomepageTemplate
<Burgundavia> rob^, just ping him
<jsgotangco> must be some newbie mistake
<rob^> hes asleep and I can never catch him on here
<rob^>  [elmo]  is away (schleep)
<rob^> :)
<Burgundavia> hmm
<rob^> ah crap, I gtg to work..
<jsgotangco> rob^, night shift?
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, just caught sabdfl asking for UI changes
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, I asked them to CC the doc list
<Burgundavia> sabdfl seb128: can we please move the Terminal and File Browser to Accessories, rather than System Tools?
<Burgundavia> seb128 sabdfl: sure, I'll do that this morning
<rob^> jsgotangco, yep, 12 hour one
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, he doesn't have a choice heh
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, no, but we have a UI freeze for a reason
<Burgundavia> because sabdfl pulled the same shit last release
<jsgotangco> tell that to the sabdfl
<rob^> heh
* Burgundavia is getting angry
<jsgotangco> he's not called sabdfl for nothing
<rob^> yep
<jsgotangco> even his nick means something
<Burgundavia> Burgundavia seb128, sabdfl when you ask for UI changes after UI freeze date please CC the doc list so that we can adjust docs as needed
<rob^> ok, I'm going to work.. have fun.
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, its just 2 icons no big deal
<robitaille> Burgundavia,  what's the story about UI changes?
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, until the user goes looking for the terminal
* robitaille missed things while working offline on the laptop testing
<Burgundavia> robitaille, sabdfl seb128: can we please move the Terminal and File Browser to Accessories, rather than System Tools?
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, if I hadn't happen to see it, there would be no way to know what happens
<jsgotangco> sure
<Burgundavia> what if this happens after our string freeze
<jsgotangco> we'll all see it
<Burgundavia> then we are screwed
<jsgotangco> on 2 icons?
* jsgotangco thinks not
<Burgundavia> umm, applications are moving menus
<jsgotangco> have you noticed how books always do not seem to reflect the actual stuff especially on technical references
<Burgundavia> that means if we reference them (which we do), then we have to make the necessary changes
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, that is because they don't release with the product, we do
<jsgotangco> its not like people are going to be completely lost with some small UI changes
<Burgundavia> yes they are
<robitaille> terminal has always been in system tools in gnome for as long as remember it.  It has always annoyed me :)
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> I am not talking about the specific change, I am talking about the break in UI freeze and how it affects us
<Burgundavia> and that we need to stand up and shout about it
* Burgundavia goes back to writing installing-applications.xml
<jsgotangco> :P
<jsgotangco> i got the smackdown so i'll just say yes
<robitaille> actually I wonder if more terminal users will be annoyed with Breezy since the right-click menu doesn't have terminal  anymore
<Burgundavia> and no run-applications
<Burgundavia> these are all good things in the long term, but are going to feel back for the traditional linux market
<Burgundavia> s/back/bad
<robitaille> by the way, why is firefox not displaying an html-formatted page when clicking on https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/trunk/gnome/quicktour/quicktour.html
<Burgundavia> no idea
<robitaille> some mime issue on the html server side
<robitaille> ?
<Burgundavia> probably because the most likely thing people want to do is view the code, not the formatted stuff
<jsgotangco> hmm we have a problem on this
<jsgotangco> doc.ubuntu.com can do this for us
<robitaille> except when you tell people to look at the page for comment.  Then it is annoying
<jsgotangco> but only mdke and hno73 has access
<Burgundavia> hmm
<Burgundavia> neither of which are currently very active
<jsgotangco> hno73 is just an email away
<jsgotangco> he just finished art.ubuntu.com
<Burgundavia> ya
<robitaille> Burgundavia,  in that quick tour, I would drop some of the Gaim protocols "Gadu-Gadu, Groupwise and Napster" and replace by others;  99% of people have never heard of the last 3, and Napster has a certain negative conotation with some people
<Burgundavia> robitaille, I just copied it from somebody else
<Burgundavia> I can do that
<Burgundavia> robitaille, don't you have svn access?
<robitaille> yes I do.
<Burgundavia> then hack away
<Burgundavia> I am not working on the quicktour at the moment
<robitaille> been busy ....and it's getting late.   It's just something I noticed earlier today
<Burgundavia> Gadu-gadu is basically the only thing the polish use, from what I understand
<robitaille> didn't know that
<Burgundavia> if people don't understand it, they are likely to simply ignore it
<Burgundavia> but I will drop napster
<Burgundavia> groupwise is useful for pointy-haired types
<robitaille> pointy-haired types would probably banned gaim in the workplace :)
<Burgundavia> right
<robitaille> going to bed...
<Burgundavia> in any case, committed, thanks for the catch
<Burgundavia> rob^, I am about half done the install-applications rework
<Burgundavia> rob^, need to sleep now, will not get to it for another 24 hours, so feel free to jump in
<Diziet> Hello.  I have a problem with ubuntu-doc and ubunut-quickguide which seems to be related to rearrangements/renamings.
<jbailey> Diziet: I'm probably still the right person to ask for now.  The folks in this channel all seem to live around .au's timezone.
<jbailey> Diziet: ubuntu-quickguide doesn't exist anymore, it's not one of the documents being produced for breezy.
<Diziet> So it's just gone and the package should go ?
<Diziet> But the sources are still in ubuntu-docs ?
<Diziet> Because if you upgrade from hoary, it gets left on your system but it's broken.
<jbailey> Right.  Should I conflict against it?
<jbailey> The source isn't supposed to still be in there.  I forgot to pluck it out at 2am or whenever it was that I uploaded it./
<Diziet> Well, is it actually wrong for breezy ?
<Diziet> I mean, the content.
<jbailey> No idea.  I haven't reviewed the content.  I reconfirmed last night that thte document isn't intended for Breezy, though.
<mdke> hi all
<jbailey> I'm helping them with technical bits atm, not actually  doing the docs.
<jbailey> I could conflict against it, I guess.
<Diziet> That seems wrong somehow.  The real incompatibility is with the lack of some other file.  Um, which I suppose might be in ubuntu-docs.  Let me check ...
<mdke> how is the packaging going?
<Diziet> The missing file is xincludes.mod which is in the source for 5.10-1 but doesn't seem to be in the .deb.  Without it, ubuntu-quickguide from hoary generates bunches of errors from scrollkeeper.
<Diziet> In the source for ubunut-docs 5.10.
<Diziet> I mean.  I don't know which binary it was in in hoary.
<jjesse> i thought the quickguide wasn't in breezy
<mdke> it shouldn't be
<Diziet> It isn't.  But if you install hoary and then upgrade to breezy, nothing removes it.
<mdke> i guess that should be easy to resolve right?
<Diziet> I'm just trying to figure out which package ought to have the conflict.
<mdke> ubuntu-docs i would say
<mdke> the new quickguide (quicktour) should be in there
<mdke> although i have been out of the loop for several days so i don't really know
<Diziet> Oh, quicktour is the replacement for quickguide ?
<mdke> yes
<Diziet> Right.  Yes, then new ubuntu-doc should conflict with (old) ubuntu-quickguide.
<Diziet> Also, I see that xinclude.mod was in the old ubuntu-doc .deb.
<jbailey> What's xinclude.mod ?
<Diziet> So, will one of you lot :-) add that conflict, or shall I ?
<jbailey> Diziet: I don't think it's preview critical.  I will do it after the preview release.
<mdke> maybe because in the old deb we used xml whereas for the new docs it should be html
<Diziet> It's a file which includes files full of definitions of stuff.
<Diziet> jbailey: Yes, you're probably right.  It only causes error messages to the install's stderr, but nothing actually bombs out.
<Diziet> Yes, it's an XML thing.
<jbailey> Diziet: For the installer?  How so?
<Diziet> jbailey: Do you want me to file a bug ?
<Diziet> WDYM `For the installer?' ?
<jbailey> Diziet: I don't understand why the installer would spit out messages.  mdz dropped ubuntu-quickguide from the ubuntu-minimal package.
<Diziet> If you upgrade from hoary.  I keep saying `if you upgrade from hoary' ...
<Diziet> So, do you want me to file a bugzilla bug to remind you to add the conflict or will you remember anyway ? :-)
<mdke> doesn't hurt to file one IMO
<jbailey> Diziet: How do you use the installer to upgrade from Hoary.  Does it do that?
<mdke> gtg
<Diziet> jbailey: I used apt-get dist-upgrade in an ssh session.
<Diziet> Not the installer. 
<Diziet> After that, any invocation of scrollkeeper-rebuilddb produces huge amounts of guff.
<Diziet> Are you saying that the installer would remove the obsolete package ?
<jbailey> I'm not saying anything.  I was just curious why you said the installer was giving you messages on stderr.  But I see that it's to the "install's" stderr.
<jbailey> So I misread, my bad. =)
<Diziet> Right.  NP.  So did you want a bugzilla bug or not ?
<jbailey> Diziet: Please.
<jbailey> I use that as my work list.  Please assign it explicitly to jbailey@ubuntu.com
<Diziet> I've already done that.  You should have it by now :-).
<jbailey> Thanks, I'll take a look.
<Diziet> 14816
<jbailey> I disabled it so that it doesn't send me email when it's assigned to me. =)
<jbailey> That way I see when someone has cc:'d me and such, but otherwsie I use my presaved queries as work lists.
#ubuntu-doc 2006-09-04
<ompaul> sladen, u finsihed?
<ompaul> theCore, are you finished?
<theCore> ompaul, yes
<ompaul> so its just sladen left
<theCore> well, that was fun
<ompaul> it was
<theCore> I'm looking forward that libgobby
<theCore> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter/Issue12
<ompaul> well it might be interesting
<theCore> where's the screenshot?
<theCore> for gobby?
<ompaul> sladen, ??
<ompaul> I made one 
<ompaul> how do I upload it to that
<theCore> More Actions -> Attachments
<ompaul> Burgundavia, my part looks all broken there was it reverted?
<Burgundavia> ompaul: ya, I just noticed that. For some reason I lost the last half an hour
<Burgundavia> do you have a newer saved version?
<ompaul> I did not save it locally
<ompaul> :-(
<Burgundavia> oh crap
<sladen> ompaul: http://www.paul.sladen.org/ubuntu/fridge/uwn-gobby.png
<ompaul> again
<Burgundavia> sladen: do you have a saved version?
<sladen> who was running the server?
<theCore> I did
<Burgundavia> can you edit the wiki page and replace my text with yours?
<sladen> no, somebody closed the server so it all vanished
<Burgundavia> ok
<Burgundavia> theCore: hold off
<sladen> I've been on the phone for the last hour
<theCore> ok
<theCore> my last saved version is 10 min ago
<Burgundavia> that is new enough'
<Burgundavia> can you copy to the wiki page?
<sladen> it really needs an auto-save
<theCore> yes
<Burgundavia> sladen: bzr
<sladen> or even a record of all the insertions/deletions wouldn't be that big
<sladen> Burgundavia: yup, bzr weave format could store it
<Burgundavia> theCore and sladen, can you join #ubuntu-marketing ?
<sladen> Burgundavia: do we /need/ to
<Burgundavia> sladen: we talk about UWN there, it being a marketing project
<sladen> "we"
<Burgundavia> ompaul, jenda, ponigru, myself
<Burgundavia> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-news/2006-September/000052.html
<Plug> Is that finished?
<Plug> released?
<Plug> with a FIXME still in it? :)
<Kamping_Kaiser> lol
<nixternal> hey, how come only Ubuntu got a link and what not to the Edgy Release?  There was Kubuntu, Edubuntu and XUbuntu as well
<Kamping_Kaiser> details, details :p
<LaserJock> it's the edgy version ;-)
<LaserJock> mistakes are allowed
<nixternal> i guess it is time to make a Kubuntu Weekly Newsletter
<Plug> I don't think separation like that is good for the overall Ubuntu community, nixternal
<nixternal> well, as it stands the UWN is Ubuntu only
<LaserJock> heh
<LaserJock> nah
<nixternal> except for the Kubuntu project part at the "bottom"
<nixternal> and the Edubuntu and Xubuntu projects at the "bottom"
<nixternal> ;)
<nixternal> hehe
<LaserJock> UWN started because there were individual newsletters already
<nixternal> i like the SoC project links though..now i have a central place to watch them develop
<LaserJock> it mentions Kubuntu and Edubuntu stuff often
<LaserJock> and probably Xubuntu in proportion to activity
<nixternal> im just jokin', but still, they pimped only the Ubuntu Edgy Release..there were 3 other releases as well
<Kamping_Kaiser> later all. enjoy your discusion :)
<nixternal> later ;)
<Plug> Ubuntu is the name for the base distro as well as "the GNOME version"
<nixternal> hmmm...but there are other download pages
<LaserJock> yeah
<nixternal> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/releases/edgy/knot-2/
<nixternal> ^^ show joe blow how to download Edubuntu from that link
<LaserJock> but as you know, nixternal, the UWN is open to editing :-)
<nixternal> ya, but i was sleeping during the editing times, and afk at other times ;)
<Plug> nixternal: Joe Blow doesn't want Edubuntu
<LaserJock> excuses, excuses
<nixternal> why not?
<LaserJock> Plug: of course he does :-)
<nixternal> exactly, typical gnome users
<LaserJock> for his kids
<Plug> Tom Teacher does
<nixternal> everyone wants Edubuntu
<nixternal> my daughter is 10, far from a teacher
<LaserJock> ah, well that to
<Plug> it's a bit more speciailist than the general Ubuntu
<LaserJock> yeah, but it is applicable to a lot of people
<nixternal> ok, show joe blow with a pII how to download Xubuntu from that link then
<Plug> this could be solved by having links to the other distros on that releases page
<Plug> my point is
<nixternal> i used Edubuntu + KDE Edu here
<nixternal> i love it
<Plug> is how does Joe Blow with a PII know he -wants- Xubuntu
<LaserJock> yeah
<Plug> you have to know you want it, to get it
<nixternal> you tell him about it
<Plug> and then because he knows the name, he goes to the Xubuntu download page
<Plug> that you told him to go to
<nixternal> so just because joe blow doesn't know about Xubuntu, we should push Ubuntu down his throat?
<LaserJock> it would be nice to have one page for the releases that then links to the various things
<LaserJock> there really isn't a reason not to
<LaserJock> I wouldn't think
<nixternal> It would be nice to list "Ubuntu - desc", "Kubuntu - desc", "Edubuntu - desc", and "Xubuntu - desc"
<nixternal> desc + link
<Plug> to be perfectly (and blatantly honest) I loved Ubuntu when it took away the confusion of "oh my god, which one do I want"
<Plug> and now its all back again
<LaserJock> nixternal: exactly
<Plug> now, if you're going to say "New users should start with:" which one do you recommend, nixternal, and why?
<nixternal> Desc == Ubuntu is a fully functional operating system utilizing the Gnome Desktop - Link
<nixternal> New users should start with windows, because Linux isn't ready for them yet
<nixternal> at times i hate being honest
<LaserJock> haha
<Plug> s/New users/New Linux users/ if you like
<nixternal> hehe
<Plug> My answer to that is "whatever version your smart friend tells you to download"
<nixternal> i dont' recommend, i show them and let them decide
<nixternal> thats like telling a chevy dealer to recommend a ford
<nixternal> i give them the pros and cons of each os..and then tell them how great Kubuntu is and hte rest sux0r:
<nixternal> hahaha
<LaserJock> the problem is that Ubuntu and Kubuntu really don't have much to distinguish themselves to people who don't even know what Gnome or KDE are
<nixternal> true
<LaserJock> with Xubuntu and Edubuntu at least there is something there
<LaserJock> low spec, and educational
<nixternal> except Amarok totally owns any music app in Ubuntu ;)
<nixternal> i was a Rythmbox fan, up until 2 months ago honestly
<LaserJock> heh, I was quite fond of a CLI music player for a while
<nixternal> cli becomes a pain when you are dealing with 200+ GB of music
<LaserJock> not really for me
<LaserJock> the only way I ever play music is "random shuffle"
<nixternal> and don't say "shuffle" either
<nixternal> hehe
<nixternal> argh
<nixternal> you said it
<LaserJock> yep
<LaserJock> that's me
<nixternal> well, i usually shuffle, but there is that time i get in the mood for a certain tune
<LaserJock> with CLI though I could log in and out of Gnome or KDE or whatever and still listen to my music
<Plug> I almost always use beep-media-player (xmms-gtk2)
<nixternal> for instance..my new favorite song right now
<Plug> but thats all beside the point
<Plug> nixternal would probably recommend his friends who wanted to try Linux, run Kubuntu
* nixternal is listening to "Sunshine And Summertime" by Faith Hill on Fireflies (Advance) [Amarok] 
<nixternal> this song rocks
<LaserJock> I really wouldn't know what to recomend to people
<LaserJock> I tell them a little about both and let them decide I suppose
<nixternal> well, if a person is switching from Window, I would definitely recommend Kubuntu w/ Royale KBFX theme
<Plug> I recommend the one that I use, so if they have problems, I can help them through it
<nixternal> that way there their transition is smooth
<LaserJock> Plug: good point
<Plug> at the end of the day Ubuntu was founded around GNOME and its release cycle, and it's always the "first class citizen", so I don't think that every release notes should have to link to all four distros
<Plug> links should exist to the three derivatives
<Plug> I'll file a bug on the release page
<nixternal> well, the actual release page is good, the UWN page isn't...and the testing pages have been seperated
<nixternal> Corey did Ubuntu and I did Kubuntu
<nixternal> just so everyone knows, I run all 4 versions here...I am Ubuntu through and through, but I have been with KDE since v1
<Plug> yes, but because of the distinction
<nixternal> and truthfully..for the longest time, i thought KDE and GNOME both blew, and that afterstep was the only way to go ;)
<Plug> (or rather lack thereof) when you say "ubuntu", what am I to think?
<nixternal> exactly
<Plug> does ubuntu imply GNOME, and != kubuntu?
<nixternal> Operating system wise yes
<nixternal> Community wise, different story
<nixternal> Ubuntu is either "Humanity towards others" or it is the Operating system based on Debian Linux featuring the GNOME Desktop
<Plug> That is a job for the marketing team :)
<nixternal> hehe
<nixternal> good luck there Plug ;)
<Plug> I read someone a while ago recommend renaming them Ubuntu GNOME, Ubuntu KDE, Ubuntu Education etc
<nixternal> we just might have a better chance of getting Bill Gates to switch to Ubuntu
<Plug> xubuntu == Ubuntu Lite I guess
<nixternal> ya
<nixternal> but now, there is Fluxbuntu which would also == Ubuntu Lite
<nixternal> truthfully, I like that whole Ubuntu GNOME, Ubuntu KDE, Ubuntu Edu, and Ubuntu Lite
<Plug> But whats a GNOME?  What's a KDE?
<Plug> What do they tell people?
<nixternal> exactly
<nixternal> i was just thinking that as well...you are back in the same spot, just with different names again
<nixternal> this could truthfully be a roundtable/sprint all in its own
<nixternal> then again, you have to look...we may see it as kind of screwy and what not..however, it seems the popularity keeps increasing and we are gaining space slowly but surely in the desktop market
<Plug> I liked the idea of getting rid of GNOME vs Gnome by changing the name to "Desktop" or "OpenDesktop" or something snazzy
<Plug> nixternal: https://launchpad.net/products/ubuntu-website/+bug/58800
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 58800 in ubuntu-website "Release page should link to other derivatives" [Untriaged,Unconfirmed]  
<nixternal> hehe
<Ubugtu> New bug: #58807 in ubuntu-doc "Gia de el servidor: Seccion 5.2 en ingls" [Untriaged,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/58807
<nixternal> Madpilot: ^^ that has your name written all over it ;)
<Madpilot> ... I speak enough Spanish to politely order Coke or beer. I don't think this bug report qualifies...
<nixternal> lol
<Madpilot> Adding "Un cerveza, por favour" to a bug report would be amusing, but probably not helpful
<nixternal> if you did that, then i could confirm the order ;)
<Madpilot> then we'd both catch hell for making fun of Spanish speaking Ubuntu users, or something ;)
<nixternal> ya, very true
<nixternal> probably would stop my ubuntu-qa membership from going through as well...especially after i told simon i would be curteous ;)
<nixternal> hey, would it be ok if i asked that guy if he could translate that section in plain text and send it back to me?
<nixternal> or does it have to go through rosetta?
<nixternal> actually...it is fixed..just hasn't been updated tot he pdf
<nixternal> i got this ;)
<Madpilot> cool
<Madpilot> have fun
<nixternal> i don't have svn access so i can't, but i can...
<Madpilot> send the patch to the list, someone will add it to svn. I've got svn access, but I'm not sure if I remember how to handle a patch...
<nixternal> mdke: ping?   bug 58807 - the fix is in 'generic/serverguide/es' however, the PDF hasn't been updated to reflect it, i issued the "Fix Release"
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 58807 in ubuntu-doc "Gia de el servidor: Seccion 5.2 en ingls" [Untriaged,Fix released]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/58807
<Madpilot> besides, I'm not sober currently :)
<nixternal> don't need to send the patch
<nixternal> i fixed all of those a month ago
<nixternal> the PDF needs to be regenerated
<Madpilot> ah, that is mdke's province, the lucky man.
<nixternal> hehe yup
<nixternal> why can't all bugs be that easy?
<nixternal> wow
<nixternal> steve irwin died today
<Madpilot> yup. see the topic in #ubuntu-offtopic ;)
<nixternal> heh, that is nuts
<Madpilot> well, after about the sixth person in ten minutes mentioned the crock bloke in -offtopic, I thought an addition to the topic was in order ;)
<nixternal> hahah
<nixternal> man...i went like an idiot like it was new stuff and told everyone..they are like /topic moron
<nixternal> hahaha
<nixternal> g'nite
<Madpilot> night nixternal 
<mdke> nixternal: sounds fine
<Burgundavia> hey jono
<jono> hey Burgundavia 
<nixternal> good morning
<osg> good morning
<Burgundavia> mdke: we now have a really nice collision of issues. Our stuff is gfdl and ccbya, the book is ccbysa and the gnome stuff is gfdl and we want all of them
<Burgundavia> hmm
* nixternal seriously needs to read up on all of the licensing stuff
<sladen> none-GPL or BSD/Public domain stuff is a real PITA
* jenda has found a liking in dual license GFDL & CC
#ubuntu-doc 2006-09-05
* mpt drops a pin
<rob> boom!!
<mpt> whee
<mpt> rob, running Edgy?
<rob> no :)
<mpt> darn
<floydwilde> hello, I have been working with ltsp on dapper and wonder if any of the doc writers are around
<nixternal> ya floydwilde, there are some of us around ;)
<jjesse> hiya nixternal
<floydwilde> I am trying to figure out the state of LTSP-Muekow in dapper, doesn't look pretty
<Burgwork> floydwilde, meukow is the reimplementation of LTSP and that is what is in Dapper
<floydwilde> Yeah I've installed twice in the past few days
<floydwilde> I've found a few things that could be corrected/clarified in the thin client wikidoc
<Burgwork> then go nuts
<Burgwork> it is a wiki and we truly need people to help us out with those sorts of things
<nixternal> hiya jjesse and Burgwork ;)
<Burgwork> hey nixternal 
<beligum> Hi all, I'm searching for some people who are interested in the 'Instrudeo project' (current project-members: ScreenKast-program, http://captorials.com)
<beligum> ScreenKast is a screen-recording program and acts as a client to captorials.com
<beligum> I'd be really cool to find some individuals who are excited in the project
<beligum> in = about
<nixternal> whats up beligum?
<nixternal> i would love to get it working here ;)
<nixternal> is it working for edgy yet?
<nixternal> also, have you spoken with John Little of Ubuntu Video?  I know he was interested in your setup as well
<beligum> not really sure, haven't tried edgy yet, but it compiles just fine on dapper
<beligum> jip, I have met John
<nixternal> good..i know there were issues when we tried building the first version of libinstrudeo in the past..so that is good to hear
<beligum> he gave me some great ideas 
<nixternal> cool...i would love to get screenkast working on edgy thats for sure...i played with it on a suse machine and it rocked
<nixternal> are you the dev for screenkast?
<beligum> I'd advise you to check out the subversion repository
<beligum> yes, the only one, for now
<nixternal> cool..i can get that through your sourceforge page if i remember correctly
<beligum> yes, here's the command:  svn co https://svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/libinstrudeo libinstrudeo
<beligum> for screenkast, just replace libinstrudeo with screenkast
<nixternal> cool..i will check its current packaging info as well here to see whats up
<beligum> the thing is, I'm financing all of this myself, and the funds are running dry, so I'll have to look for a job soon
<beligum> but I don't think that will leave much space for screenkast and captorials anymore
<nixternal> heh, i think that goes with any dev you run into...we eventually run out of "beer" money, so we have to actually get a job...it sucks i know ;)
<beligum> haha, indeed
<beligum> also trying to port screenkast to windows, but it sucks ;)
<nixternal> ya, i wouldn't worry ;)
<nixternal> unless it has a backdoor where we could sneak in and install Ubuntu..then I say keep working ;)
<nixternal> argh..duty calls, another windows user bites the dust
<nixternal> bbiaf
<beligum> lol
<nixternal> jjesse: i submitted a brief patch the other day for the "About Ubuntu" section on some of the things i played around with...it hasn't been uploaded yet, but have you had a chance to look at it?
<jjesse> nixternal: yeah i did look at it and it looked good i liked it
<jjesse> hmm wonder why it didn't get uploaded
<nixternal> don't know..you still haven't gotten your svn access fixed?
<jjesse> been too lazy, jst been submitting patches :)
<jjesse> to desktop guide today
<jjesse> actually i get home and frogot about it and don't remember
<nixternal> heh
<nixternal> ahhh...well start uploading, or teach me ;)
<jjesse> do you have a svn account yet?
<jjesse> did mdke create one?
<jjesse> or create a request to create one?
<nixternal> i don't have one at this time...does it go hand-in-hand with the Launchpad or no?
<jjesse> no, mdke submits a request to Request Tracker, and htey create one
<nixternal> ahhh
<nixternal> i thought it was through launchpad for some reason..as i have been sitting in the doc-team queue there since may or june
<jjesse> drop a note to mdke :)
<nixternal> actually, i believe he wanted to hear from you and Riddell first on if the work i was doing was OK
<jjesse> i thought i responded to that email w/ my blessing
<nixternal> hmm..dunno
<jjesse> i'll look tonight
<jjesse> nixternal: you there?
<nixternal> ya
<nixternal> for a second...loading up the ipod and going to mow the lawn ;)
<jjesse> not joining the ichtux meeting?
#ubuntu-doc 2006-09-06
<nixternal> wow trappist i truthfully swore you were a member already
<nixternal> this is in the bag...congrats!
<trappist> hehe I thought so too for a while
<trappist> thanks :)
<trappist> just need mako I think
<nixternal> he will +1 ya no problem
<LaserJock> :-)
<LaserJock> \o?
<LaserJock> :(
<LaserJock> \o/ rather
<trappist> :)
<trappist> woohoo!
<trappist> now to get into -qa
<nixternal> heh
<nixternal> i have been waiting myself trappist
<trappist> are you on the list?
<nixternal> ya
<trappist> I don't see you
<trappist> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda
<nixternal> Richard Johnson
<nixternal> oh
<nixternal> hahah
<nixternal> i mean -aq
<nixternal> qa
<nixternal> lol
<trappist> oh :)
<trappist> well I stayed late at work for the cc meeting, I'm gonna head home.  Thanks much for the kind words, nixternal and LaserJock 
* trappist &
<nixternal> no prob..see ya in a bit
<topa_> bhuvan: ping
<bhuvan> topa_: pong
* nixternal stretches, lets out a big yawn, grabs a cup of cafe negro, and then waves 'mornin'
<jjesse> morning
<jono> hey jjesse 
<jjesse> hiya jono :)
<mdke> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7148748849652085555&q=crash
<jsgotangco> hey
<jjesse> hey back :)
<jjesse> what's the address for the kubuntu release notes for edgy again/
<Burgwork> jjesse, wiki or the short ones?
<niKsternal> what time is the meeting?
<niKsternal> clear
<niKsternal> doh
<jjesse> found it thanks thouh
<lloydinho> huh? Meeting, anyone?
<lloydinho> eh. Stupid summertime.
<jjesse> i'm ready
<jjesse> :)
<niKsternal> im not
<niKsternal> at i am presenting ubuntu and linux right now ;)
<jjesse> so no mtg?
<jjesse> or is my time off?
<mdke> evening. meeting time, isn't it?
<lloydinho> yes! Now it is meeting time!
<mdke> so let's talk over some meeting issues in here
<lloydinho> yes.
<mdke> we don't have enough for a full meeting
<mdke> but we can talk things through
<mdke> agenda is here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/MeetingAgenda
<mdke> first agenda item is license policy, does anyone have any views on that?
<mdke> I don't think the current license policy is doing us any favours, and I would like to move to a single cc-by-sa license
<lloydinho> fair enough. 
<mdke> jjesse: any views on this one?
<lloydinho> will that require the approval of all the contributors so far?
<jjesse> i don't have any issues w/ that
<mdke> lloydinho: yes, in theory. In practice, it means asking for permission, and moving on if people don't complain
<lloydinho> right.
<mdke> jeff made the great point on that thread that in future we should get people to agree that the doc team can change the license in the future by consensus
<lloydinho> mdke, that would be a wise thing to do in the long run.
<lloydinho> yes.
<mdke> the choice of license is the key thing to talk about, but on the ML cc-by-sa was the one each person mentioned
<mdke> but the thread wasn't widely responded to :/
<mdke> the forum uses that license, as does the official book, and potentially the wiki might use it, so it would make sense to take that
<mdke> the next issue is whether to cite licenses in full in the guides or just to link to them. jjesse, lloydinho: any views on this one?
<lloydinho> with a CC license, there wouldn't be a need to cite them in full.
<lloydinho> or would there? Seriously, IANAL..
<mdke> there isn't a need in any event
<jjesse> mdke: i gues i'm not really a laywer or really concenered about the license to be honest...  
<mdke> fair enough
<jjesse> i guess whatever works best, CC lienses is fine w/ me
<lloydinho> hey LaserJock, just in time! (or a little late, but no matter..)
<LaserJock> doc meeting?
<mdke> as long as the file with the license text is shipped, and linked to in the info section of the guides, then there is no problem from a legal point of view. And those licenses are really cumbersome as appendices
<mdke> LaserJock: hiya, we are just chatting through some issues on the agenda
<LaserJock> I just got to work from being at the dentist for  2 hrs
<lloydinho> ouch
<LaserJock> yeah, no fun
<lloydinho> mdke, that sounds like a very decent solution.
<mdke> ouch indeed. LaserJock, got any views on the first two agenda items? (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/MeetingAgenda)
<LaserJock> licensing is a big pain in the butt! ;-)
<mdke> that's true. Any more specific ones?
<LaserJock> 1) I'm sort of feeling like the dual licensing thing isn't really working for us to well. It is great for downstream derivatives
<LaserJock> but it sucks for us
<jjesse> is the dual licenses causing the problem integrating w/ gnome or is there some other?
<jjesse> i don't have that converstation in front of me
<mdke> no, that's another
<mdke> more fundamental ;)
<LaserJock> well, grabing material from Wikipedia for instance
<mdke> wikipedia grabbing is unlikely in any event though, because it's on gfdl
<mdke> but ubuntu forums, ubuntu book grabbing would be good
<jjesse> is the CC license easier to use in downstream/upstream?
<LaserJock> well, but the point remains that it looks to me anyway, that any source we take from (including the wiki) needs to also be dual licensed
<mdke> LaserJock: yes, that's right
<mdke> jjesse: it would make it possible for us to use other cc-by-sa material in our docs
<LaserJock> right now I would say that we legally can't use any of our own wiki material, which is very odd
<mdke> well, that's because the wiki has no license right now, but that's another question :)
<LaserJock> heh
<LaserJock> what about the forums, they are cc-by-sa?
<mdke> yes, I believe so
<LaserJock> well, of course IANAL, but I kinda feel like just sticking to cc-by-sa (or cc-by even) would be a good idea
<mdke> me too.
<LaserJock> ok, that's number 1
<mdke> any view on 2)?
<LaserJock> 2)  I say links, it is totally dumb looking to have 10 pages of License on a 80 doc 
<jjesse> is it approriate leggally?
<jjesse> cause if it is i'm fine w/ it
<LaserJock> I know with cc-by-sa a link is fine
<mdke> yes, including a link is fine
<mdke> we can ship an xml version and link to it locally
<LaserJock> I didn't read through GFDL enough to say positively but I think it might be ok too
<lloydinho> cool
<mdke> how about 3?
<LaserJock> as long as you can get the reader to the License material then I think you are fine
<LaserJock> right, I'm all for it
<jjesse> the only entities i usually refer to a doc #s
<jjesse> version numbers sorry
<LaserJock> but can we use entities within the .xml files themselves (like at the top) for translatable stuff?
<mdke> no
<LaserJock> ok, so how would we do &ubuntu; ?
<mdke> by writing "Ubuntu"
<mdke> and not using an entity
<LaserJock> hmm
<mdke> it's fewer letters, tbh ;)
<LaserJock> I think that's a hit, but I think it is probably worth it
<lloydinho> wouldn't that make it more tricky for derivatives wanting to use our documentation?
<LaserJock> mdke: well, it isn't when you have to replace like 100 of them ;-)
<mdke> find and replace...
<LaserJock> lloydinho: I'm guessing that's what sed or replace is for
<lloydinho> Yeh, I suppose so.
<LaserJock> yeah, what mdke said ;-)
<lloydinho> so agreed then?
<LaserJock> honestly, with Python and shell scripting, etc. these kinds of things are pretty easily done
<jjesse> +1 for me
<LaserJock> I think the best use of entities are for number's an URLs
<LaserJock> will URLs be translatable at all?
<trappist> perl -pi -e 's/this/that/g' find . -name '*.xml'
<trappist> perl -pi -e 's/this/that/g' `find . -name '*.xml'`
<trappist> there
<lloydinho> LaserJock, should URLs be translable?
<LaserJock> I kinda wondered if some of the teams (for instance the brazil team) might put in localized urls
<lloydinho> oh.
<claude> yes, localized urls are important
<LaserJock> is that a common practice?
<lloydinho> hm. Well, most URLs point to the Ubuntu website which isn't translated at all.
<mdke> claude: I'm not convinced they are frequently used, to be honest
<mdke> (for translation)
<LaserJock> for the Packaging Guide it isn't a big deal because non of the URLs have translated equivalents
<claude> for example java download
<LaserJock> stuff like LP and wiki.ubuntu.com
<claude> en : http://java.sun.com/javase/downloads/index.jsp
<claude> fr: http://java.com/fr/download/manual.jsp
<mdke> claude: java is shipped with Ubuntu, we don't use that url
<claude> it's in the desktop guide now
<mdke> obviously, it's possible to localise urls, but I'm not sure it is actually done much with the urls we use
<LaserJock> well, I think we maybe could add a point for authors to think about if an entity is translatable before they put it in
<mdke> claude: erm, no it isn't
<LaserJock> was it in the dapper desktop guide?
<claude> i should maybe update my svn :-P
<mdke> LaserJock: no
<claude> programming.xml
<LaserJock> anyway, I think you are totally right about the entity thing
<mdke> matt@kalliope:~/ubuntu/ubuntu-doc/trunk$ grep -r "java.com" *
<mdke> matt@kalliope:~/ubuntu/ubuntu-doc/trunk$
<LaserJock> the most common thing is the version number
<LaserJock> and we shouldn't need to redo translations for that
<mdke> gah, wrong search
<mdke> anyhow
<nixternal> hehe
<mdke> if we need to localise urls, we can work around that easily
<LaserJock> we need to keep the translation load to things that really count
<lloydinho> I think in any case it may still be too early to begin localizing urls.
<mdke> how about issue 4?
<lloydinho> There aren't very many complete translations of the documentation, much less the urls they contain.
<lloydinho> I put that in there. 
<jjesse> #4 working on the kubuntu docs side of things :)
<jjesse> so just need to keep pushing
<lloydinho> jjesse, good work!
<mdke> I'm going on holiday on saturday
<mdke> probably will be out of it for much of the rest of september
<jjesse> i gotta get my key issue figured out so i stop sending patches and can start committing directly
<jjesse> enjoy your holiday
<mdke> before I go I'll try and tidy up anything I can think of that I haven't done yet. And if anyone needs me to do anything, lemme know asap
<lloydinho> mdke: are you going to revert the desktop guide merge with the Gnome docs?
<mdke> yes
<lloydinho> how does the desktop guide look apart from that?
<lloydinho> Are there any major gaps that we need to address?
<mdke> it needs to be reviewed and checked for edgy. Also there is some modem bits missing and the printing chapter is incredibly thin
<mdke> "there is some", uggghn
<lloydinho> hm. Modems and printers are not exactly my strong point.
<LaserJock> well, tbh docs have been on the back-burner for edgy for me, I hope to get some work done on the Packaging Guide though before the freeze
<lloydinho> how about the front page - did we reach any conclusion about how it should look?
<mdke> lloydinho: there are modem pages on the wiki if you want to dive into that
<mdke> lloydinho: front page - no: we need to figure out what to call the desktop guide and the Gnome desktop guide so that they don't look confusing on the Front page
<lloydinho> hm. I'd like to have a look at that, but I won't have time for it before monday.
<lloydinho> mdke: How have you gone about editing the front page so far?
<mdke> lloydinho: happy to leave you in charge of that :)
<mdke> basically yelp creates its front page from scrollkeeper omf files, shipped with each document (see for example desktopguide.omf)
<lloydinho> mdke, heh - thanks :-)
<mdke> changing those files changes how they appear in the yelp table of contents
<mdke> the order is controlled by some yelp magic, contributed by Don Scorgie, who you should grab for any technical help
<lloydinho> cool. I've talked to Don a bit before, I'm sure he wouldn't mind lending a hand.
<mdke> I'm sure he won't
<mdke> cool, I ought to go now
<mdke> I'll send a few mails chasing up these agenda items
<lloydinho> cool. I hope everybody's psyched about getting these last things in place.
<LaserJock> \o/
<lloydinho> :-)
<mdke> it's been a pretty lazy cycle
<jjesse> agreed, hasn't been as hectic as dapper was for some reason
<LaserJock> well, psycho busy for me but not in the doc department
<lloydinho> yeh. Maybe we can get a bit of a last-minute-rush-mode going now... ;-) 
<mdke> we'll have to concentrate on the next one :)
<mdke> and try and rush everything into place for edgy
<LaserJock> well, I really think the 4 month release cycle made a difference
<LaserJock> that, and in dapper we had a  lot of new stuff
* lloydinho nods
<mdke> ok, good night, thanks guys
<LaserJock> cya mdke, thanks
<lloydinho> have a nice holiday, mdke.
<mdke> thanks
<lloydinho> good whatever-time-of-day to the rest of you. :-)
<LaserJock> :-)
<nixternal> jjesse: speaking of Kubuntu docs, have you heard anything from robotgeek on the KDG?
<trappist> guys I'm going to shift my focus from bugs to docs to get as much proofreading done as possible.  what do you think is the ideal window for me to get as much new/modified content as possible without conflicting with freezes?
<nixternal> tomorrow ;)
<nixternal> we freeze around the 14th
<nixternal> so...i have the about kubuntu and release notes rocking if you want to play with those
<trappist> nixternal: and you don't expect a whole lot of activity between tomorrow and the 14th?
<nixternal> they need some more work...especially the support parts
<trappist> nixternal: I can start with those
<nixternal> there is going to be a bunch of activity between now and the 14th, i was just having some fun with the "tomorrow" ;)
<trappist> oh ok :)
<nixternal> robotgeek was working on the KDG, but I see jjesse posted a patch to it recently...i know robotgeek wanted to split it up...but i dont' know now
<jjesse> i didn't see any work so i just started :)
<trappist> I guess what I'm looking for is the time where stuff is somewhat stable, but not yet frozen
<nixternal> i should have done the same, but im not "in in" like that..so i didn't want to step on anyones toes
<jjesse> nixternal: don't feel afraid to step on toes  "its easier to ask forgiveness then permission " 
<nixternal> true..but at the same time, i don't want to chap someones ass. forgiving and forgetting is easier said then done ;)
<LaserJock> nixternal: we're all friends here ;-)
<LaserJock> trappist: I'm not sure we are exactly to the "stable but not frozen" state, we are more like a slushy
<nixternal> lol
<nixternal> ya, the "ice is to thin to walk on" stage
<nixternal> a snow cone is more frozen
<nixternal> jjesse: tomorrow, 4pm my time, 5pm your time, Kubuntu devel meeting
<nixternal> only thing I have to offer is a proposed "Kubuntu on the Web" page like the "KDE on the Web" page currently in the KHC
<nixternal> who..actually it is 5pm my time and 6pm your time
<jjesse> yeah i know
<nixternal> no i was the right the first time
<nixternal> im a little e.tarded right now
<nixternal> you will be driving home during the initial start...anything you think we should add to the agenda?
<nixternal> i should be getting home by the time it starts
<jjesse> well i'm trying to rescheudle around the mtg tomorrow
<LaserJock> doh
<mdke> nixternal: erm, that ubuntu-website bug you closed is still present
<nixternal> is it?
<nixternal> i thought it got fixed?
#ubuntu-doc 2006-09-07
<nixternal> actually..it was fixed..and then they changed the theme up again
<nixternal> my fault on that one..sorry
<uni`nix> heya jono, enjoy the radio interview..im at the uni so i won't be able to catch it live
<jono> uni`nix, thanks! no worries :)
* uni`nix is nixternal at the uni btw ;)
<LaserJock> jono: hi!
<LaserJock> little belated ;-)
<uni`nix> 1.5 hours to go!
<theCore> hello, LaserJock
<LaserJock> hi theCore
<theCore> how are you?
<LaserJock> pretty good
<theCore> any updates planned for the Packaging Guide?
<nixternal> jjesse: if there is anything you want added to the kubuntu meeting, go ahead, or anything you can think of..i will be back at about 16:00 CST, 17:00 your time
<Riddell> Burgwork, mdke_: could you add me to ubuntu-doc on launchpad
<jjesse> grin :)
<Burgwork> Riddell, given you have commit rights, yes
<jjesse> why did that sound like yoda talk to me?
<Burgwork> because you use KDE?
<jjesse> lol
<jjesse> i'm sick of seeing all those big gnome footprints on planet :)
<jjesse> nixternal: updated release notes please verify them when the patch is applied
<Riddell> planet does smell of big feet quite a bit today
<Riddell> :)
<Riddell> Burgwork: going to add me then? (username jr)
<LaserJock> hehe, Riddell just wants to collect some more emblems ;-)
<Riddell> actually I want to import docs svn into bzr and see what happens
<LaserJock> Riddell: yeah, I tried that
<LaserJock> Riddell: I'm not very great with bzr
<LaserJock> Riddell: I can use it ok, but I had a hard time because of the large number of commits
<jjesse> stupid %#%#%@$ computer
<Burgwork> Riddell, will do
<philbull> Hey guys
<jjesse> hiya philbull
<philbull> hey jjesse
<philbull> we have 7 days to finish the SFW guide
<jjesse> i don't know if its going to get done by feature freeze for edyg
<philbull> i have a massive patch for /ubuntu
<jjesse> awesome :)
<philbull> isnt feature freeze today?
<jjesse> ment doc freeze
<philbull> ah, ok
<philbull> i've done most of applications, dual-boot, installing and preparing
<jjesse> wow put me to shame sorry bout that
<philbull> that leaves intro, whyswitch, migrating and authentication
<philbull> no worries, most of this happened within the last 24hrs
<philbull> it needs some serious reviewing, so ill send a patch to u-doc list tonight, when ive finished working on migrating.xml
<jjesse> awesome i look forwared to reviewing it
<philbull> its in a vaguely usable state, no eye-candy though
<philbull> i think i can get it finished by the 14th
<philbull> ive imported a small amount of info from the wiki and cleaned it up
<jjesse> that's great news
<philbull> this will be the theme for tonight's session i think...
#ubuntu-doc 2006-09-08
<nixternal> woohoo
<jjesse> nixternal: did i miss anything good in the mtg?
<nixternal> everything was good at the meeting ;)
<jjesse> goopd sorry i misssed it
<nixternal> the big thing that involved anything remotely with us, was the idea of "seperation" again...but i let every know that they are free to edit wiki and docs
<jjesse> agreed, i don't understand why they always push for speration, but never contribute to the docs
<jjesse> frustarting
<nixternal> i shouldn't say 'everyone' either...there was only a couple of the newer members who might not have known the the docs all fall under the Ubuntu Documentation Project
<nixternal> jjesse: i did the same thing in my infancy here as well
<jjesse> maybe we need to explain it a bit further
<jjesse> somehow
<nixternal> well..i think that once the "How to Contribute" comes about as well, it will all fall into a place a little bit more
<nixternal> i know some of the newer members were talking about how docs needed to be edited, thinking that the development team did all of that as well
<jjesse> i hope
<nixternal> i let them know...as for Kubuntu docs, right now there is jjesse, trappist, robotgeek, and me
<nixternal> that do a majority right now
<jjesse> and anyone can feel free to submit patches :)
<LaserJock> is there any "Contributing to Kubuntu" material on the wiki or something?
<nixternal> ya, i let them know
<nixternal> LaserJock: there is, but very 'eh' at best
<jjesse> i think so
<nixternal> it is old too, as there is Kubuntu Docs, Kubuntu LoCo, and Kubuntu Marketing
<nixternal> hehe
<jjesse> wow its old: https://wiki.kubuntu.org/HelpingKubuntu
<nixternal> utilizing Andreas' work, I will probably either create Kubuntu specific doco on that topic for the wiki
<LaserJock> well, no matter what you do people will always be like "I have a great idea, lets for a new team for docs" ;-)
<jjesse> needs some loving
<jjesse> hmm its all setup for dapper :(
<nixternal> ya...you know what..i thought the whole "lets create a team to do..." was cool for a while..but after hanging out here, in this channel alone, has made me aware of some 'not so good' ideas ;)
<nixternal> i know one thing that Riddell and myself talked about was creating a doc "Kubuntu on the Web" that is similar to the "KDE on the Web" doc..this will link a lot of the Kubuntu specific pages/locations
<jjesse> +1 to that
<LaserJock> I haven't heard of "KDE on the Web"
<nixternal> im definitely planning on making it look better than the current KDE version as well..as that is pretty vanilla
<LaserJock> got a URL?
<nixternal> KHelpCenter ;)
<LaserJock> oh really?
<nixternal> lemme grab a url for you as well
<nixternal> ya
<LaserJock> well, I'll get edgy Kubuntu soon
<LaserJock> my edgy Edubuntu is 3 min from being done
<LaserJock> then I'll aptitude install kubuntu-desktop
<nixternal> hehe
<nixternal> http://docs.kde.org/stable/en/kdebase/khelpcenter/contact-the-kde-team.html
<nixternal> that isn't it, but that is neat
<nixternal> heh, that is it ;)
<nixternal> http://docs.kde.org/stable/en/kdebase/khelpcenter/contact-developers.html
<nixternal> something along the lines of those 2
<nixternal> robotgeek!  hey, were you still interested in splitting up the KDG in order to get it done by next week?
<robotgeek> yessir
<nixternal> alrighty...sling me some chapters and i will work away
<nixternal> maybe post it on the the list, so we don't get some cross-work going on
<robotgeek> jjesse has already done most of the work, i guess. 
<robotgeek> the partions chapter needs to be relooked at. 
<nixternal> ok
<robotgeek> and i am not sure how the nvidia/ati stuff has changed. other than that, we seem to be okay. 
<robotgeek> no new additions, though. 
<nixternal> so, nothing needs to be added to those, just looked over?
<nixternal> no new additions, as in new chapters
<nixternal> got it
<robotgeek> yes, unless we want to add new material. :)
<nixternal> i don't think there should be anything new
<nixternal> nothing has really changed since dapper
<robotgeek> cool, then mostly looking over stuff, i guess
<nixternal> alrighty...i will work on the partition and vid sections then
<robotgeek> i will look and see how the add remove stuff has changed, if at all
<nixternal> it hasn't changed really
<nixternal> system settings is the only thing that has really changed, and probably needs/needed redocumenting in a sort
<robotgeek> there is not much about system settings anyway. 
<nixternal> power management, printer sharing, hotkeys are small sections if needed at all as well
<robotgeek> maybe mention it to change resolution or so. 
<nixternal> ahh
<robotgeek> not sure, i will take a look at it tommorow, and see if something needs to be added. i havent seen edgy yet, sadly
<robotgeek> nixternal: cool, if you can take care of that, i will take care of the rest :)
<nixternal> sure..i can help out anywhere you need me to on it
<nixternal> im taking care of the "about kubuntu" as well, ans started the "release notes" which jjesse has just added a patch to as well
<nixternal> actually...about kubuntu wasn't much/isn't much anyways..version changes, and a rewording of support really
<robotgeek> unfortunately, i havent had time of late. maybe next time around
<nixternal> edgy isn't getting long term support, since the whole idea behind it is to be the foundation of future releases
<nixternal> are you back in school or what?
<robotgeek> no, still working till this month end. school (hopefully) from jan
<nixternal> ahh..i thought maybe you headed back for a second..but maybe i remember reading your blog about a job as well
<robotgeek> yeah. thats keeping me busy (as it should)
<nixternal> hehe
<robotgeek> anyways, i'll be back again tommorow
<nixternal> alrighty..ttyl
<robotgeek> later
<philbull> Hey guys
<philbull> I have a question...
<philbull> what would be required to get a product added to launchpad for the switching from windows guide?
<philbull> would it need to be accepted into ubuntu-docs?
<jjesse> nixternal: sent an email to you and mdke about getting you setup w/ svn access
<jsgotangco> file it on the request tracker, it'll be much faster, unless (i do not know) mdke can actually create svn accounts now
<jjesse> i don't know how to file it on the request tracker
<mdke> i'll do it, sure
<jjesse> thanks mdke
<mdke> mpt: has the Yelp online search feature been implemented for Edgy? If so, would you open a bug to remove the "Online documentation" entry in the Help menu?
<Burgwork> mdke, yes
<mdke> Burgwork: yes to my question to mpt?
<mdke> Burgwork: as in, it searches the Ubuntu help wiki as a fallback?
<Burgwork> mdke, yes, ask shaunm for more details
<mdke> Burgwork: well, I know the feature exists in yelp, I want to know if it has been patched for Ubuntu to work with our documentation site
<mdke> I don't think shaun will know
<Burgwork> mdke, jdub did the work on the gnome side
<mdke> Burgwork: I think we're at cross purposes. I am aware it works with Gnome, I want to know if it has been modified to work with ubuntu
<Burgwork> mdke, the plan is for it to work with distros
<Burgwork> just a sec, let me get you a link
<Burgwork> http://live.gnome.org/SearchingOnlineHelp
<mdke> Burgwork: yes, it was designed to, and does work with our help wiki. I just want to know if yelp has been patched already
<Burgwork> hmm, no idea
<Burgwork> ask seb128 or dholbach
<Burgwork> mdke, what is the default svn commit message editor in ubuntu?
<Burgwork> need to set it in FC4 here
<mdke> Burgwork: not sure. It's nano on dapper, I'm fairly sure
<mdke> it's determined by whatever is the default editor
<Burgwork> can you believe that FC4 doesn't have EDITOR or VISUAL set?
<mdke> I don't know much about it, but I don't have either of those on my dapper
<mdke> if they are environment variables
<Burgwork> they are. SVN is apparently looking for them
<Burgwork> do you have SVN_EDITOR set?
<mdke> Burgwork: no, it just uses the default system editor
<Burgwork> right
<Burgwork> apparently FC4 has no concept of that
#ubuntu-doc 2006-09-09
<Burgwork> Committed revision 1.
<Burgwork> [corey@localhost openuserful] $
<Burgwork> woot!
<Burgwork> http://svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/openuserful/
<LaserJock> so what's that going to be?
<Burgwork> it already is a pc reservation server
<Burgwork> this is a little bit of a throw-code-over-the-wall
<LaserJock> heh
<Burgwork> want to package it? being tcl, it is pretty easy todo
<LaserJock> Burgwork: I'm testing something, can you write my nick real quick?
<Burgwork> LaserJock, hmm?
<LaserJock> interesting
<LaserJock> just testing out my irssi theme ;-)
<mpt> mdke, no, I'm still waiting for newz2000 to implement the help.ubuntu.com search
<mdke> mpt: that won't happen before Edgy, I wouldn't have thought. Can it be pointed at the wiki search for now?
<halfhaggis> Hi all. I want to help out with writing documentation. I've subscribed to the mailing list for a while now to get an idea of how things work. Also downloaded the DocBook stuff from the repo. I figure I'll just try editing grammar etc while I get familiar with the docbook format. Do I just send my changes to the mailing list, or is there a particular admin person I can send them to? It's not like a lot of discussion is needed regarding consi
<halfhaggis> stency corrections and the like.
<mdke> halfhaggis: sending diffs to the mailing list is great, as described by the wiki
<halfhaggis> Ok. thanks
<nixternal> mornin'
<jjesse> morning, Laser_away is going to submitting his ichthux documentation branch to launchpad if he hasn't already so we all don't screw up :)
<nixternal> heheh
<nixternal> i did some more changes last night..doctoring up some of the booboos i made to it
<nixternal> everything is starting to validate at least
<jjesse> cool, my branch is now available from doc.ubuntu/~jjesse/ichthux
<jjesse> http://doc.ubuntu.com/~jjesse/ichthux 
<nixternal> lol..how many branches we working from ;)
<jjesse> no clue, i think that's why Laser_away is going to register his branch and makake it somewhat "official"
<Ubugtu> New bug: #59676 in ubuntu-doc "regenerate russian kubuntu docs for dapper" [Untriaged,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/59676
<mpt> mdke, newz2000 hopes to get it done by next week, which should give enough time for Ubuntu's yelp to be tweaked
<nixternal> <para>  .deb ,   <mousebutton></mousebutton>        <menuchoice><guimenu>Kubuntu Package Menu</guimenu>  <guimenuitem>Install Package</guimenuitem></menuchoice>.</para>
<nixternal> ref:  <guimenu>Kubuntu Package Menu</guimenu>     <-- the following text..what is the correct way of adding this after the </guimenu> so it will validate?
#ubuntu-doc 2006-09-10
<LaserJock> where the heck did "Problems with GNU FDL and the GNOME Documentation Project
<LaserJock> come from?
<nixternal> i have no idea..but i can't wait to see mdke's response to their bickering
<mpt> What started out as an innocent cross-post between ubuntu-doc and gnome-doc-list...
<Kamping_Kaiser> does the doc team sitll use SVN?
<Burgundavia> yes
<Kamping_Kaiser> ok, thanks
<Burgundavia> Madpilot: crazy time to just be joining
<Burgundavia> plus you are lacking your /ubuntu/member cloak
<Madpilot> Burgundavia, just decided to try a LiveCD in Grandad's Compaq laptop :)
<Burgundavia> and?
<Madpilot> it works, most of the buttons on the front seem to work, except for the wireless
<Kamping_Kaiser> whats the laptop?
<Madpilot> it's a Compaq (rebranded HP) Presario something or other
<Burgundavia> file bugs
<Burgundavia> I need to do dads laptop when he gets back
<Madpilot> I would, if I could figure out the model number of this silly thing
* Kamping_Kaiser hasnt used presarios
<Burgundavia> don't need it
<Madpilot> Gnome runs OK on only 512Mb RAM; laggier than my desktop w/ the full Gb, though...
<Madpilot> Burgundavia, no?
<Burgundavia> yes, machine has that information within it, jsut a sec
<Burgundavia> cat /var/lib/acpi-support/*-*
<Burgundavia> that will get you bios version, manufacturer, product name and system verison
<Kamping_Kaiser> and sudo dmidecode |less
<Madpilot> HP/Presario V2000,
<Madpilot> I'm not going to get into it tonight, but I want to poke at the wireless card in this thing a bit, see what it is and if it'll work on *nix.
<Burgundavia> lspci | grep Atheros
<Burgundavia> replace with Broadcom or Intel
<Madpilot> 0000:05:02.0 Network controller: Broadcom Corporation BCM4318 [AirForce One 54g]  802.11g Wireless LAN Controller (rev 02)
<Burgundavia> that should work with the builtin bcm43xx driver
<Burgundavia> but you need fwcutter
<Madpilot> apt-get install fwcutter?
<Burgundavia> hmm, not certain the exact package
<Madpilot> actually, it is showing up in System->Admin->Networking
<Madpilot> the neighbors have an unsecured AP, so if it works I should be able to see it
<Madpilot> hmm, Network Settings is claiming the wireless is now active, but the blue light on the wireless button doesn't want to come on
<Burgundavia> right, that is the lack of firmware speaking
<Madpilot> OK
<Madpilot> what do I use to browse available wireless networks?
<Burgundavia> welcome to pain
<Madpilot> ah
<Burgundavia> try doing this "sudo dhclient eth0" (or 1, if eth1 is the wireless card)
<Madpilot> in other news, the button to turn the touchpad on & off does work on this thing
<Burgundavia> anyway, I really need to sleep
<Burgundavia> will be awake again in a about 8 hours
<Burgundavia> but still online
<Madpilot> OK, good night - I should crash too, and not get disracted by this laptop...
<Madpilot> I keep automatically reaching for the mouse on this thing... or hitting the touchpad by accident... :|
<Madpilot> anyway, going to crash too - night all. Let's see if hibernate works on this thing, so I don't have reboot the LiveCD when I wake up...
<nixternal> hey guys. There is an email on the list where a patch for ubuntu/menus/C/ was added. He changes one of the files in there, and has created another file as well from scratch.  could somebody look that patch over and see if it is ok to be added to the repo.
* nixternal heads out for a few hours
<Burgundavia> nixternal: ok, thanks
<Gargoyle> Hello
<Gargoyle> I have created a doc for setting up postfix + dovecot + mysql. I was going to add it to the wiki and was just reading the guidelines about improving existing pages, but I am not sure if it fits in
<Burgundavia> right
<Burgundavia> here is a general feeling behind such large pages
<Burgundavia> rather than create one giant howto that is going to fester, fix up the postfix, dovecot and mysql pages
<Burgundavia> and then create a small howto that links there together
<Burgundavia> nixternal: you need to consider that new migration-assistant stuff
<Gargoyle> All the existing pages contain conflicting info.
<Burgundavia> Gargoyle: then fix them up
<Gargoyle> Burgundavia: I understand what your saying, but I think it would mess up existing pages if there was lots of sections for every possible config!
<Burgundavia> Gargoyle: you can link to the installation instructions and then have the config sutff that is specific to your stuff on the main page
<Gargoyle> Burgundavia: So I could create a DovecotMysqlVirtualUser page, that basically says follow the normal dovecot install [link]  and then edit config file to look like this example... etc?
<Burgundavia> yep
<Burgundavia> and cleanup the other pages while are at it
<Gargoyle> Is it worth posting [maybe a PDF]  to the mailing list to get some feedback first?
<Burgundavia> edit the wiki page and then ask for feedback
<Gargoyle> ok
<Gargoyle> I'll give it a shot.
<Burgundavia> thanks
<nixternal> Burgundavia: whats up with that migration-assistant stuff?  is it alright to apply?  or should I wait for mdke to make a decission on that?
<nixternal> i know he is on holiday for the next few weeks
<nixternal> time for some lasagna..i shall return ;)
<Burgundavia> nixternal: afaik, it is already in ubiquity as of 0.2
#ubuntu-doc 2007-09-03
<CIA-33> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal * r4314 kubuntu/internet/C/internet.xml: fixing the flash section
<mdke> morning all
<CIA-33> Ubuntu Documentation: lucius * r4315 xubuntu/office/C/office.xml: patch by george from aug 31
<CIA-33> Ubuntu Documentation: lucius * r4316 xubuntu/ (34 files in 20 dirs): remove gnome-menu entity file; merge those entities which we still need into xubuntu.ent
<ubotu> New bug: #137088 in ubuntu-docs (main) "Macedonian translations missing in ubuntu-docs " [Undecided,New]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/137088
#ubuntu-doc 2007-09-04
<CIA-33> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal * r4317 kubuntu/index/C/index.xml: replaced some topics and added links to index
<LaserJock> showoff
<CIA-33> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal * r4318 kubuntu/ (18 files in 18 dirs): update pot files
<CIA-33> Ubuntu Documentation: sbalneav * r4319 edubuntu/handbook/C/server.xml: Added small section on Sabayon and Pessulus
<LaserJock> mdke: it seems I forgot to reply to your Packaging Guide email
<mdke> LaserJock: how dare you!
<LaserJock> mdke: there is enough difference that keeping around the dapper version  is good
<LaserJock> but after that people might as well be be using the latest
<mdke> do people package things for dapper?
<mdke> or rather
<mdke> do people who are learning how to package for the first time do so on dapper?
<LaserJock> probably rarely
<LaserJock> usually we put them into the current dev release
<LaserJock> i.e. right now everybody is learning on gutsy
<mdke> that's what I thought
<LaserJock> I would rather like to see the Packaging Guide not tied to releases
<mdke> would it be possible to make it release neutral; i.e. including a section about how to package for previous releases?
<LaserJock> yes, well
<LaserJock> after dapper it pretty much is
<mdke> right
<mdke> and is it for the foreseeable future too?
<LaserJock> the only time it becomes difficult is if there is some major change in the way we do things
<LaserJock> for dapper->edgy some of the tools were made much easier
<LaserJock> for feisty we added some Maintainer field stuff
<LaserJock> but in princible these are minor things and should be dealt with by using notes
<mdke> presumably in that case the packaging guide would simply be updated, and people packaging for previous releases would need to look at some specific information
<LaserJock> right
<LaserJock> but I also think the packaging guide could be totally reworked
<LaserJock> so that it is more guide and less reference
<LaserJock> in which case it could be even less release-specific
<mdke> is anyone in motu interested in working on it? If it's sold as the definitive motu guide, perhaps people would be
<LaserJock> well
<mdke> jono could pimp it up as part of his motu push?
<LaserJock> I've had three people show an interest in it
<LaserJock> TheCore, bluekuja, and another fellow
<LaserJock> but I honestly don't know where that's going to get
<LaserJock> the emphasis seems to be much more into doing docs on the wiki
<mdke> so there is an overlap between those and the packaging guide?
<LaserJock> the wiki documentation, in general, seems to be more specific and less quality
<LaserJock> sort of what we see in general
<LaserJock> my concern is that a lot of people want to see some sort of guide through all this mess
<LaserJock> and a fair amount want to print out a PDF as well
<LaserJock> but as far as overlap of content there isn't a ton
<mdke> we should try and get the packaging guide into the wiki and start people working on that
<LaserJock> yes, I think that might be the way to go
<LaserJock> I've never really gotten devs to help with content much
<CIA-18> Ubuntu Documentation: mdke * r4320 ubuntu/printing/C/printing.xml: Ross's patch to update to new printing program
<mdke> LaserJock: ok we agree :)
<LaserJock> yes, but would still like to produce a nice looking doc
<LaserJock> development on the wiki is nice
<LaserJock> but end-user presentation on the wiki can be quite messy
<LaserJock> especially for a largish doc
<mdke> well, it wouldn't all be on one page, obviously
<mdke> each chapter could be a page, or evensections
<mdke> basically it would be nice to get to a place in docbook->wiki tolls that we can chunk the ouput in exactly the same way as we chunk html output
<LaserJock> yep
<glatzor> mdke: hello, could you please assist me in building translated html output of the documentation?
<glatzor> I would like to use it for the review process
<glatzor> The howto mentions to replace all C with de but this doesn't work.
<glatzor> the translate,sh should still not be used?
<mdke> glatzor: translate.sh should work fine. However there is no point using it with gutsy, we haven't even opened translations yet, let alone imported anything from rosetta. You can use it with feisty
<mdke> glatzor: I'm going to look into translations soon though
<glatzor> mdke: I was confused by acomment in the script "NB - DON'T ATTEMPT TO USE THIS YET, IT HASN'T BEEN TESTED MUCH." :)
<mdke> glatzor: yeah, understandably
<mdke> glatzor: anyway, that doesn't allow you to build html...
<glatzor> mdke: It is quite late. see you.
<glatzor> good night, mdke
<mdke> glatzor: good night
<CIA-18> Ubuntu Documentation: philbull * r4321 generic/server/C/web-servers.xml: Change php5-cgi to php5-cli (patch from Adam Sommer)
<kylewilliams> nixternal, you there?
<nixternal> kind of..what's up?
<kylewilliams> ha, um...did you get my last email?
<nixternal> yes I did...dunno how I missed that
<nixternal> hey, with your sync, would your directions work for many?
<kylewilliams> ok, was just wondering coz you're usually pretty quick to reply :)
<nixternal> probably because Kontact in Gutsy has been broke for the past week :)
<kylewilliams> that would ultimately be the idea, i'd need to test it a bit first though
<kylewilliams> :D
<nixternal> rock on...we only have a couple of days before all docs are frozen...did you do the sync in Gutsy?
<kylewilliams> no, feisty - still have to test it on gutsy. was gonna do it this weekend
<nixternal> we have 8 more days until the strings are frozen...so if you could rock up something with gutsy, a couple of screenshots (1024x768 with the default theme), I should be able to work it in
<nixternal> it is definitely a topic I want to cover
<nixternal> I could also work with my palm pilot here and work on syncing it as well
<kylewilliams> ok, will get to working on it soon
<kylewilliams> one problem though
<nixternal> rock on, and just shoot me an email when you have something worked up
<nixternal> not knowing docbook isn't a problem :)
<nixternal> if that is what you were going to say
<kylewilliams> the opensync-plugins-kdepim doesn't work with KDE > 3.5.5
<nixternal> hehe
<kylewilliams> sorry, trying to eat and type at the same time
<kylewilliams> the package in the repos i mean
<nixternal> are you sure? we just uploaded a new opensync everyone has been bragging about in gutsy
<kylewilliams> oh, i tested against the package in the feisty repos
<kylewilliams> i guess i should test it in gutsy first
<nixternal> ya, give it a shot this week with gutsy and see what you can rock out
<nixternal> hey, if this sync'ing stuff is up your alley, and you feel like doing some KDE 4 contributions, I might be able to pull a job for you
<kylewilliams> ok cool...
<kylewilliams> do by any chance know how kitchensync development is going?
<nixternal> it is going..I know they are working hard on the "syncing" stuff with kdepim in KDE 4
<kylewilliams> ya, well this weekend i really came to understand syncing
<nixternal> awesome..I haven't messed with it in quite a few months actually, and I need to
<kylewilliams> oh, and i'd love to do some KDE 4 stuff
<nixternal> rock on, we hang out in #kde-docs
<kylewilliams> i also tried synching a few months ago but got nowhere
<nixternal> it is usually quiet, but my recent blog post started a lot of buzz
<nixternal> so I am hurrying to finish the kubuntu docs so I can get back over to the KDE side for a while
<kylewilliams> when's the kde4 doc freeze?
<nixternal> we still have a couple of months, and a ton of work to do
<kylewilliams> i'm sure...
<kylewilliams> whenever i have time i'll try and get stuff down
<kylewilliams> *done
<kylewilliams> anyway, when the kde4 doc rush comes about I should be able to help out as I should be finished with exams by then
<nixternal> groovy
<nixternal> anywho, I need to roll for a bit here and finish up some work..just ping me if you need something
<kylewilliams> one more question
<nixternal> go for it
<kylewilliams> any response to my question regarding the lack of a desktop guide for feisty?
<kylewilliams> kubuntu feisty that is
<nixternal> we dropped the desktop guides in favor of a topic based help setup
<nixternal> however, I would like to someday work up another desktop guide as a side project because I get more emails and comments about bringing it back than anything else
<kylewilliams> oh i see
<nixternal> I have started working on a project and need to get the time to rock it out
<kylewilliams> well where is the topic based help for feisty?
<nixternal> need to speek with Jonathan Jesse a little more on the project first
<nixternal> KMenu -> Help
<nixternal> same spot the Desktop Guide was in
<mdke> it's worth pointing out that there isn't really a proper distinction between a "desktop guide" and a "topic based help system"
<kylewilliams> lol, oh there...i meant online
<nixternal> mdke: true, but the requests I have been getting were something to read up on prior to installing, or something they could easily print out
<mdke> the only difference is that the material which tells the user how to use their desktop is in more than one file, rather than in a single document
<nixternal> so I have been messing around on the side just writing some stuff up that I am trying to get incorporated into the tbh for kubuntu
<nixternal> the great thing with kde 4, is people will be able to go into one of the topics, and if they want to, they can press the "Export to PDF" button and have a PDF to do as they wish
<mdke> nixternal: the response to that should be "we should develop a way to output our desktop help into a downloadable and printable format" rather than "we need to bring back the desktop guide"
<nixternal> we don't need to bring back the desktop guide
<mdke> I agree
<nixternal> but I would like to do a free on the internet for all, Kubuntu Book like deal
<mdke> but that was what you said a few lines up, so I wanted to clarify
<nixternal> similar in style to that of the official ubuntu book, just more than one chapter for kubuntu :)
<kylewilliams> yes, the official ubuntu book is good. would be nice to have one for kubuntu
<kylewilliams> a whole one for kubuntu :D
<nixternal> yes it would :)
<mdke> there is an important difference between making a book out of our documentation (which just involves finding the right toolchain for pdf generation) and writing a desktop guide (which involves the extra and unnecessary step of writing more material and duplicating effort)
<nixternal> who knows though, we are kind of processing one for KDE that might be good enough for all
<kylewilliams> i've gotta go figure out how to implement serial communication on windows for a computer science project :(
<kylewilliams> will be in touch nixternal
<nixternal> fun, I am coding a bazillion lines of java right now for my comp sci project as well
<nixternal> fun stuff...chat with ya later
<kylewilliams> ha, enjoy
#ubuntu-doc 2007-09-05
<mdke> morning all
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-doc.log
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-doc.log
<froud> hi, my hardmodem has blown and I only have a softmodem to replace it with, anyone know of some docs to build martian on ubuntu server
<mdke> nixternal:
<mdke> 16:17 #launchpad: < danilos> mdke: ping (or just email me to clarify what has changed for kubuntu-docs POT files: kubuntu/index/index.pot seems to be a renamed version  of kubuntu/sysdocs-index/index.pot and the other two files are .desktop file translations -- see
<mdke>  https://translations.launchpad.ne/ubuntu/gutsy/+source/kubuntu-docs/+imports?field.filter_status=NEEDS_REVIEW&field.filter_extension=sall)
<nixternal> index is a totally new version and needs full translation
<nixternal> it does replace sysdocs-index in general though
<mdke> nixternal: can you email danilo or leave him a msg to let him know what to do with the templates?
<nixternal> msg'n him now
<mdke> thanks
<nixternal> no problem
<CIA-18> Ubuntu Documentation: mdke * r4322 /trunk/ (2 files in 2 dirs): japanese translations, sent privately by email
#ubuntu-doc 2007-09-06
<mdke> morning all
<CIA-18> Ubuntu Documentation: mdke * r4323 ubuntu/printing/C/printing.xml: ross' latest patch
<CIA-18> Ubuntu Documentation: philbull * r4324 ubuntu/add-applications/C/add-applications.xml: Applying patch from Ben/kenpokarateboy to document offline package installation
<kyleN> hey, does anyone know what, if any, blueprints there are for ubuntu docs?
<kyleN> specifically, blueprints that define how the whole doc system works
<kyleN> I understand it's yelp/docbook/xslt/etc. But I want to read any blueprint/spec that may exist. Anyone know of one? thx
<oldmanstan> kyleN: the doc team wiki page has some info, not precisely a blueprint but you might look over it if you haven't already
<kyleN> oldmanstan, thx
#ubuntu-doc 2007-09-07
* mdke mornings
<popey> yo
<mdke> hi popey
<mdke> popey: i noticed i'm still an admin of the lp screencasts team... i should remove myself since I'm not contributing, do you want to add someone else?
<CIA-18> Ubuntu Documentation: mdke * r4325 debian/changelog: Daniel's changes
<popey> yes good idea
<popey> (adding someone else)
<popey> however I don't mind you staying as admin, it's not a problem
<mdke> it's not really fair
<mdke> I'll stay a member because I'm still interested in the team :)
<popey> :)
<mdke> popey: how's it going? I've seen several new screencasts, are you doing them all?
<popey> no, myself and Andrew Gee have split them roughly 50/50
<popey> I put up a list that needed making, and he picked the ones he wanted to do
<popey> there should be 30 new ones by the end of the month
<mdke> that's awesome. Are they feisty based?
<popey> mostly gutsy
<popey> some feisty specific
<mdke> rocking
<mdke> ok if you have any links we can include in the documentation for gutsy, tell us asap (string freeze around the corner)
<popey> i managed to get UDS sponsorship from Canonical as a result, which is nice for raising the profile
<mdke> but we can break a freeze to add screencast urls
<popey> when is string freeze?
<mdke> 13th or something (argh)
<mdke> yeah
<popey> we have had someone join the team and transcribe the screencasts!
<popey> so we now have subtitles in English which can be (and need to be) translated
<mdke> great news
<popey> and have had offers to translate to French and Spanish
<mdke> I'll poke the italian team about that
<popey> that would be very helpful
<mdke> what's the url?
<popey> I'll send a mail to the loco contacts list later - are you on that list?
<popey> if so then you can forward to the -it team?
<mdke> sure, I'm the -it contact
<popey> ok, then look out for that mail :)
<mdke> good
<mdke> you might want to try ubuntu-translators too, that's the proper list for translators
<popey> ooo, good call
<mdke> all translation teams should be on it
<mdke> bah, I should get moving, another busy day ahead
* mdke curses busy days
<popey> ttfn, have a good one
<sommer> morning all
<sommer> when documenting commands should they be always prefixed by sudo?
<sommer> that is if they need to have root privs.
<sommer> I'm working on an addition to the Postfix guide and was wondering about all the postconf -e commands that don't have sudo.
<nixternal> sommer: if they need root privs, then yes, use sudo, as long as the command is a command line command, if it is a gui then use the gksu/gksudo, whatever it is
<sommer> nixternal: thanks I assume they mean command line.
<sommer> is there a standard way for documenting paths that vary?
<sommer> specifically /home/$user/..
<sommer> I'm leaning toward /home/<emphasis role="italic">username</emphasis>/
<kylewilliams> hey nixternal, when's the string freeze for kubuntu gutsy taking place exactly?
<nixternal> 12th or the 13th
<kylewilliams> ah ok, so there's still a couple of days
<sommer> anyone know if some one is working on creating-a-self-signed-certificate?
<sommer> there's a xref in generic/server/C/mail.xml and it won't validate I assume because the link doesn't exist.
<sommer> wait I think I found it in the web-servers.xml file
<seisen> So when does the documentation start for Hardy Heron?
<nixternal> after we do our freeze, and we branch the current trunk into a new trunk, and rename the previous to gutsy
<nixternal> although, we typically wait a couple of months so we can see how much different the documentation is going to be
<nixternal> typically the documentation doesn't change much, so it is safe to begin documenting right from the get go
<shriphani> hello, I am looking forward to contributing, where do I find the current working project.
<shriphani> oh dear.... the purojects being wokred on ^
<seisen> I was wondering because I though about helping with the documentation this time around
<nixternal> shriphani: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Repository
<nixternal> seisen: just remember, no matter the size of the contrib, it is a huge help to us
<seisen> I know, I figure I can try to help with some of the misc things that are simple to do so I can learn how to use docbook  and then with more experience move on to bigger things
<nixternal> rock on...pretty much how everyone got their start
<nixternal> OK, time for school...bbiab
<seisen> see ya
<kylewilliams> eish...time for me to write a statistics test :/
<kylewilliams> will probably send you something by sunday nixternal
<kylewilliams> oh, and in terms of screenshots...if most things are command line based ,such as using apt-get ,is there any need for screenshots
<kylewilliams> ?
<kylewilliams> k, i gotta go...nixternal, just lemme know in an email or something when you see this
<kyleN> Hey, can anyone here answer a question about how app-specific help gets installed?
<kyleN> I am wondering whether the xml help files come with the application package and are loaded into the correct location at install time
<mdke> kyleN: I can try, what app is it?
#ubuntu-doc 2007-09-08
<kylewilliams> nixternal, you around?
<ubotu> New bug: #138288 in ubuntu-docs (main) "Eye Candy page not easily accessible" [Undecided,New]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/138288
<ubotu> New bug: #138292 in ubuntu-docs (main) "Ubuntu Eye Candy needs to be updated" [Undecided,New]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/138292
#ubuntu-doc 2007-09-09
<CIA-18> Ubuntu Documentation: robotgeek * r4326 kubuntu/ (libs/kde-menus-C.ent network/C/network.xml):
<CIA-18> Ubuntu Documentation: Made changes to wifi section
<CIA-18> Ubuntu Documentation: Minor correction to KDE menu entry
<robotgeek> phew, finished just in time :)
<robotgeek> nixternal: i finally got around to changing some of the wifi stuff
<nixternal> woohoo! :)
<nixternal> did you commit it?
<robotgeek> nixternal: yup, committed
<nixternal> good deal
<robotgeek> cool, comments?
<shriphani> hmm does philbull make a regular appearance here ?
<Flannel> shriphani: he hasnt been here since sept 5 at least
<shriphani> so 4 days.
<robotgeek> hmm, email might be a good way to contact anyways, i think
<shriphani> i have been mailing him.
<shriphani> tho irc would be a more comfortable way of communicating.
<robotgeek> hmm, he is pretty regular on the mailing list.
<robotgeek> maybe real life caught up :)
<shriphani> he sure is.
<shriphani> yesterday we exchanged messages as if we were on irc with a 10 sec. lag.
<Flannel> On the 6th, he made a change to a package.
<mdke> shriphani: he's not on irc much, unfortunately
<mdke> shriphani: can we help at all?
<shriphani> huh. no. I don't have any troubles here. I just felt that IRC would be a better way of communicating than by sending email to each other every 10 seconds.
<shriphani> it didn't come that close though... but it did get to a 1 minute gap..
<mdke> shriphani: yeah, I have the same thing
<mdke> I'll suggest it to him
<Klau1> Hello, there! Is there someone here having write access in https://help.ubuntu.com/7.04/printing/C/scanning.html ?
<Klau1> Nobody?
<Klau1> Anyway, the issue is the following: In #ubuntu-de I just got a problem solved, where my USB external HD wouldn't appear in /dev, because, after all, my USB scanner (CanoScan LiDE 20) was USB powered and sucking too much of the USB's power.
<Klau1> The helpful guy also told me that USB-powered scanners were generally a bad idea. So I thought, someone should insert this note at an appropriate place in the documentation wiki
<Klau1> So even though nobody is here to answer right now, I hope you can still read this and take action.
<Klau1> Thank you!
<shriphani> Klau1: #ubuntu-doc
<shriphani> oops.
<Klau1> that's where I am, no? :D
<mdke> blast these incomprehensible docbook invalidity errors
<mdke> meh, as usual you spent half an hour looking and changing, then see the obvious typo
<CIA-18> Ubuntu Documentation: mdke * r4327 ubuntu/ (19 files in 19 dirs): refreshing pot files
<Flannel> Is there any way of linking to a svg on the wiki? or do I need to rasterize it?
<CIA-18> Ubuntu Documentation: mdke * r4328 teamstuff/ (10 files in 2 dirs): updated code for docbook2moin
<ubotu> New bug: #138475 in xubuntu-docs (main) "No toolbar in Xubuntu" [Undecided,New]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/138475
#ubuntu-doc 2008-09-02
<mdke> morning all
<fbond> Hi, the changes made to satisfy https://wiki.ubuntu.com/OneTruePath don't appear to be documented very well.
<fbond> I asked in #ubuntu-devel and was directed here.
<fbond> There is some confusion as to what an appropriate place for such documentation might be.
<fbond> Is there a system administrator's guide?
<wallan> fbond: i'm sure there are places in the community wiki where that info would be useful
<wallan> perhaps you could add something here: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SystemAdministration
<fbond> wallan: You don't think it ought to be documented on the system itself?
<wallan> fbond: probably, but i don't know anything about that! ;)
<anilg> hi.. where can i find the source to the server guide (http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/serverguide/C/) ?
<sommer> anilg: https://code.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-doc
<sommer> anilg: you can checkout the source by doing bzr branch lp:ubuntu-doc
<sommer> anilg: and the serverguide source is in the serverguide/C/ folder
<anilg> thanks
<sommer> np
#ubuntu-doc 2008-09-03
<jpds> Anyone know what I'm doing wrong here: http://paste.ubuntu.com/43157/ - it appears to be missing chunk.xml which is in docbook-xsl, which I have installed..
<mdke> jpds: is that file present on your system?
<jpds> It is not. But according to http://packages.ubuntu.com/search?searchon=contents&keywords=chunk.xsl&mode=exactfilename&suite=intrepid&arch=any - it should be..
<jpds> Wait, my fault, was checking docbook-xml and not -xsk.
<mdke> xsl
<jpds> -xsl*
<mdke> or just get the build-deps for ubuntu-docs
<jpds> It's working now.
<mdke> good
<jpds> Loads of: "No localization exists for "c"". But it built fine.
<mdke> that's fine
#ubuntu-doc 2008-09-05
<mdke> morning all
<vadi2> Hi
<vadi2> are there any moinmoin experts about?
<vadi2> I tried to add an apt link and I crashed it
<vadi2> "IOError: [Errno 36] File name too long"
<vadi2> http://pastebin.com/mcad394
<mdke> vadi2: it looks like you've tried to add an extraordinarily long pagename, which is too long for the filesystem to support
<mdke> vadi2: but if that's not right, you might want to ask in #moin
<vadi2> mdke: that is right, a shorter link worked
<vadi2> any idea how can I get it not to mangle an apturl link?
<mdke> vadi2: from the traceback it looks like you are actually trying to create a page with a long name, not insert a link. But, for any more advanced insights, you'll need to try #moin
<vadi2> no, it was a link..
<mdke> i wasn't aware that apt urls worked on our wiki
<vadi2> really...?
<vadi2> I was hoping to make some terminal commands more newbie-friendly
<mdke> we have some guidelines for referring to installing packages here - https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiGuide/Style
<mdke> that's what we like people to use
<vadi2> Oh. Too bad, that page seems long and complicated, an apt link is a lot easier
<mdke> vadi2: can you tell me about how it works? Has the ubuntu development team approved it as a secure and safe way of installing packages?
<mdke> (presumably by the long and complicated comment, you are referring to the InstallingSoftware page rather than the WikiGuide/Style page?)
<vadi2> mdke: yeah, they made it in fact
<vadi2> mdke: try pasting "apt:firefox-2" for example in the address bar of firefox and pressing enter.
<vadi2> mdke: yes, the InstallingSoftware page looks big and user would lose attention and patience quickly trying to comprehend it :(
<mdke> I agree
<mdke> are there any disadvantages with apturl?
<mdke> I wonder how we should use it to ensure that we are helping Ubuntu users viewing the pages on another operating system or printing them.
<vadi2> Providing both apturl links as a recommended way and the terminal commands would be fine.
<mdke> well, I don't think we should be recommending terminal commands for installing software
<mdke> hence the Style page recommendation
<mdke> vadi2: how about you kick off a discussion about the use of apturl on the wiki on our mailing list? I see you've filed an rt already for having it enabled, but I'd like to have a discussion about the best way to use it
<mdke> that way we can amend the guidelines, if necessary
<vadi2> which mailing list is that? There are many
<mdke> only one for us. It's ubuntu-doc@lists.ubuntu.com
<vadi2> mdke: ok, sent
<mdke> thanks very much
<mdke> good night :)
<vadi2> see you
<LaserJock> mdke: if I remember correctly security was a big issue that came up when we discussed using apturl in docs previously
<mdke> LaserJock: I'm just about to go off to bed, could you see your way to posting on that thread to explain what the security issues are? If something is blessed by mvo, that's a pretty decent recommendation.
<LaserJock> mdke: yeah, I'll send an email. I just don't know how much has been done about security since the last time it was discussed
<LaserJock> mdke: could be it's now perfectly fine
<LaserJock> originally it was quite prone to people putting bad URLs in our wiki pages :(
<mdke> maybe copy someone like mvo in then
<mdke> he may be able to explain further
#ubuntu-doc 2008-09-06
<XiXaQ> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SettingUpSamba <-- This page recommends that a user uses ftp for sharing files between linux computers.. It should recommend ssh instead.
<Flannel> XiXaQ: sftp you mean, I imagine (well, scp would work too).  Go ahead and change it.
<XiXaQ> I can't change that?
<XiXaQ> Flannel, can I? How do I do so?
<Flannel> XiXaQ: Do you have a launchpad ID?
<XiXaQ> yes.
<XiXaQ> I know how to modify pages on the wiki, but I thought the help.ubuntu.com was restricted?
<Flannel> XiXaQ: help.ubuntu.com is, the community section isn't, no.
<XiXaQ> oh, ok.
<XiXaQ> Flannel, how do I make a url? I'm linking to https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SSHHowto, but I'd like it to say "See SSHHowto" instead of the complete url.
<XiXaQ> well. It's not very important. Only cosmetic :)
<Flannel> XiXaQ: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/HelpOnLinking  see the bottom-ish for examples
<XiXaQ> well. I tried using the wikiname, but that wouldn't work?
<XiXaQ> that is, I used SSHHowto.
<mdke> XiXaQ: you use: "See [[SSHHowto]]"
<mdke> XiXaQ: you should definitely read the page which Flannel showed you about how to link, it's very useful
<mdke> cody-somerville: I'd like to remove the firefox-homepage and firefox-homepage-locales alternatives. Since 8.04 firefox has no longer used them (using ubufox instead for getting the startpage address). I don't think kubuntu uses them. Does xubuntu use them at all?
<mdke> cody-somerville: assuming xubuntu uses firefox, I think the answer must be "no" but I wanted to check
<mdke> cody-somerville: I've posted more detail to -devel, let me know if it affects xubuntu at all
<Syntux> shall we translate "<application>Yelp Help Browser</application>" in user-guide ? or keep it as it is
<mdke> Syntux: yes, you can translate anything which is inside a tag, you just shouldn't translate the tag itself
<Syntux> lovely.
<mdke> Syntux: have a look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Translation for some more detailed guidance
<Syntux> Thanks
<mdke> Syntux: oh, one other thing - if you are translating the user-guide, try and contribute your translations upstream too, Ubuntu receives those translations along with other distributions
<Syntux> mdke, by exporting and uploading to .po to upstream ?
<mdke> Syntux: sure, or by just doing the translation directly with the upstream po file
<mdke> and then uploading that to Launchpad, if necessary
<Syntux> mdke, hmm so the nice rosseta isn't usable here :-)
<mdke> Syntux: that's true. You can work in Rosetta and send the po file exported from that to upstream, they can merge it
<Syntux> there should be a way to automate this, only then using Rosetta can be meaningful :-)
<mdke> yes, I'm sure the Rosetta developers are very aware of that
<Syntux> I'll see if I can contribute something in that arena, Thank you mdke  :-)
<mdke> np
<cody-somerville> mdke, we do
<emet> hey
<cody-somerville> Hello
<emet> is the system documentation on launchpad?
<emet> I want to make a OOBE branch
<emet> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-doc
<emet> :P
<emet> so there is an OOBE ish thing
<emet> okay
<emet> it needs to be prettier
<emet> anyone here?
<mdke> cody-somerville: in what way is it used? firefox can't use it, I don't think
<cody-somerville> I think it is going to the Ubuntu page now
<cody-somerville> I need to see how it is working now
<mdke> cody-somerville: does xubuntu use firefox?
<cody-somerville> yes
<mdke> cody-somerville: the same firefox as ubuntu, not a customised version?
<cody-somerville> I believe so.
<mdke> ok, in that case it's not using the alternatives
<mdke> firefox gets its startpage from the ubufox package
<mdke> so you'd need an xubufox in order to customise the homepage
<cody-somerville> Yes
<cody-somerville> I don't really remember being alerted to that change, fyi
<mdke> cody-somerville: I made a similar point to asac during the last release cycle when he implemented it; but he said that he had raised it on a mailing list. I can't remember exactly the details
<mdke> I guess it was specced out at a conference
<mdke> anyhow, let me know if you have any issues about removing the alternatives
<mdke> but I think as long as you are using firefox, they don't make a difference
<mdke> I was just making sure there isn't some browser out there using them
<cody-somerville> Okay, sounds good.
<mdke> feel free to approach asac about creating an xubufox, I suspect he would be happy to help
<emet> okay
<emet> where can I find the XML file that defines the "home page" of the help system
<emet> I want to use it as a base from my OOBE idea
<_MMA_> Would my assumption be correct in thinking that people on the doc team and in this channel are responsible for this page: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/InternetRelayChat#Channels ?
<_MMA_> I'd like #ubuntustudio-devel added to the "Team channels" section.
<_MMA_> With "luisbg" as the "Contact person".
#ubuntu-doc 2008-09-07
<technomensch> is allen in here?
<cody-somerville> :/
<mdke> morning all
<mdke> technomensch: I think Allan is right about the link text in the Basics section of the WikiGuide draft, I'm going to adopt his text and move the draft to the real page now
<mdke> technomensch: thanks for your work on it
<technomensch> morning mdke
<technomensch> I just got up.  looks like I forgot to log out.
<technomensch> I was just responding to him with my comments
<technomensch> and I just forwarded you a copy of my response to him
<mdke> technomensch: if you've sent it to the list I will get it already
<technomensch> I think I sent it to just you.
<technomensch> but it was good to see the proper way to do the update
<technomensch> a good example and I will keep that in mind as I continue to improve the home page, if there is no objections, but I will move future changes to a "Drafts" version of it instead.
<mdke> technomensch: cool. A basic guideline is that if you are making major changes to something like the front page of the wiki, or a high visibility page, or the WikiGuide, to make the proposal first on the mailing list with an explanation. Using a Draft page works great
<technomensch> ::nod:: understood. thanks.
<technomensch> have you gotten a chance to look at what I did so far with that page?
<technomensch> it's about 645am here on the east coast
<mdke> no, not yet. It's late here but I have a busy day unfortunately. Maybe this evening
<mdke> gtg now, see you later on
<technomensch> anyone know how to set up a redirect from wiki.ubuntu.com page to a help.ubuntu.com article?
<mdke> technomensch: instructions should be on wiki.ubuntu.com/CategoryDocumentation
<technomensch> yea, found them before you siad it, thanks
<technomensch> afternoon all
#ubuntu-doc 2009-08-31
<Gwaihir> hi, I have a urgent request, a user started translating into italian a community wiki page in the english version of the wiki
<Gwaihir> we need to revert the page
<Gwaihir> page is: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Microsoft_Office
<Gwaihir> but I'm not able to revert it
<mdke> Gwaihir: will do
<Gwaihir> thanks mdke
<mdke> done
#ubuntu-doc 2009-09-01
<nixternal> mdke: which branch should we (Kubuntu) be using for docs? lp:ubuntu/kubuntu-docs or lp:~ubuntu-core-doc/kubuntu-docs/karmic ?
<nixternal> to many emails to search though, this is easier :p
<mdke> nixternal: the latter
<mdke> nixternal: the former is part of DistributedDevelopment, the wiki has more info
<nixternal> groovy, thanks dude...gotta get back into some documentation around here, no better time than now :)
<mdke> kubuntu-docs needs some love
<nixternal> you think? :)
<mdke> nixternal: anyway, welcome back, got to run
#ubuntu-doc 2009-09-04
<Traveler> hello
#ubuntu-doc 2009-09-06
<xnox> Hello =) does ubuntu-doc uses same docbook as gnome documentation?
<Alkasadar> Hello everybody :D
<starcraft-ntbk> lo Alkasadar, new to doc?
<Alkasadar> well, that's my goal
<Alkasadar> i wanna join
<Alkasadar> i started to read bout the team today
<Alkasadar> about*
<starcraft-ntbk> ah, well thats good, reading up is a good start. Got lots of experience wiritng? Any languages other than english?
<Alkasadar> well
<Alkasadar> i'm fast writing
<Alkasadar> yeah... my born language is spanish
<Alkasadar> and i know the english enough
<Alkasadar> but always i'm try to get it better
<starcraft-ntbk> Alkasadar: for the record, my regular nick is starcraftman, might have seen me round the forums. This is my notebook running linux, fixing it up atm.
<Alkasadar> oh i see...
<Alkasadar> atm?
<starcraft-ntbk> Alkasadar: sounds good, don't know any French huh? Do ya write a lot in anything in particular field? Anyway, you are at the doc team wiki.ubuntu page yes lots of good info on getting started there.
<starcraft-ntbk> atm = at the moment, internet slang
<Alkasadar> oh i se..
<Alkasadar> i see :D... well let me check out all the info to start to contribute here
<starcraft-ntbk> Alkasadar: see join us page for how to join the team, open launchpad team, you have an lp account yes?
<Alkasadar> nop.. not yet
<Alkasadar> let me check out then..
<starcraft-ntbk> Alkasadar: launchpad is primarily a bug and development tracking site, but it is also used to track team memberships and is a central hub for lots of Ubuntu work, advisable to get one.
<starcraft-ntbk> very easy to sign up, the lp account also doubles as an openID log in that can be used for ya to edit wiki,ubuntu and the H,U,C, site,
<starcraft-ntbk> H.U.C.*
<starcraft-ntbk> still getting used to notebook keyboard youll have to forgive some typos.
<starcraft-ntbk> Alkasadar: if you've any questions I can answer now, supper in a few minutes so I'll be off for atleast an hour. Channel is a bit quiet to be honest, probably because most usually working on something...
<starcraft-ntbk> well off I go, be back later Alkasadar. After signing up for launchpad, keep reading wiki pages for team, if you've any questions I'll be back later.
<Alkasadar> Sorry i didn't response... i was having lunch
<Alkasadar> thank you for al the info starcraft-ntbk
<Alkasadar> :D
#ubuntu-doc 2010-09-06
<jooooooon> hi
<zkriesse> jooooooon: Hi
#ubuntu-doc 2010-09-09
<Riddell> dudes, who knows how to generate .pot files from docbook?
<shaunm> Riddell: use xml2po
<shaunm> Riddell: xml2po -m docbook -o mybook.pot mybook.xml
<shaunm> something like that. if you use XInclude, you should pass each XIncluded file to xml2po
<Riddell> thanks shaunm
#ubuntu-doc 2010-09-10
<thecondor> hello!
<thecondor> I'm from the Ubuntu German Translators team and I have a question..
<thecondor> ..while checking the german translations in Â»ubuntu-docs-newtoubuntuÂ« and Â»ubuntu-docs-windowsÂ« in the maverick source package in launchpad, I noticed that Â»F-SpotÂ«-related information is still in there - despite the fact that Â»ShotwellÂ« is the replacement for F-Spot in maverick.
<thecondor> I maybe edited those strings in the german translation in launchpad too early. Is there an update for the english ubuntu documentation coming soon, replacing occurences of F-Spot with Shotwell, that I should have waited for?
#ubuntu-doc 2010-09-11
<moiso> hi there
<moiso> I'm a enthusiastic spanish user and I would like to help in the spanish tranlations
<moiso> If any of you could help me to  get started I will really apreciate it
<moiso> nobody?
<vish> moiso: translators hangout in #ubuntu-translators
<vish> !weekend | moiso
<ubot2> moiso: It's a weekend. Often on weekends the paid developers and a lot of the community may not be around to answer your question. Please be patient, wait longer than you normally would or try again during the working week.
<vish> moiso: so, be a little patient :)
<vish> even in that channel..
<moiso> yep you're right. sorry
<moiso> So I will try in the translators channel
<vish> np..
#ubuntu-doc 2011-09-05
<jbicha> mdke: sorry, out all day
#ubuntu-doc 2011-09-06
<DarkwingDuck> mdke, ping
<mdke> DarkwingDuck: (In case I'm not around at the moment, please provide a bit of information about what you want and I will respond when I get back)
<DarkwingDuck> blarrg
#ubuntu-doc 2011-09-10
<lajjr> jbicha, Are you online?
<jbicha> lajjr: howdy
<lajjr> Hello and thank you for reviewing my last chapter...
<jbicha> lajjr: I didn't understand your validation error, does it not validate with your patch?
<lajjr> validate.sh gave it..
<lajjr> but after the build it's gone I did it before the build sorry..
<lajjr> But the there are pages that are in it the go to help.ubuntu pages that are either being deleted or are empty.
<lajjr> Is it better to remove right?? Then leave in to find them deleted in future right?
<jbicha> lajjr: I don't understand, which pages?
<lajjr> like this page https://help.ubuntu.com/community/vsftpd
<lajjr> and this one https://help.ubuntu.com/community/openiscsi
<jbicha> lajjr: yes please remove the links to those pages
<lajjr> and one more https://help.ubuntu.com/community/cups
<lajjr> Great deleted and that chapter I think is ready.
<lajjr> jbicha,  Thank you for the help and information...
<duanedesign> 11
<jbicha> Rocket2DMn: howdy
<Rocket2DMn> hey jbicha
<Rocket2DMn> i think its a docs kind of weekend
<Rocket2DMn> i see youve been doing a lot of merging from upstream
<jbicha> Rocket2DMn: well the deadline is soon if we are trying to meet it this time
<jbicha> bug 786311 was about 2 things: Default Apps (which is "fixed" because it doesn't have a help button now) & apparently the Canadian user-guide translation wasn't valid
<ubot2`> Launchpad bug 786311 in ubuntu-docs "help fails in gnome-default-applications chooser" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/786311
<jbicha> meld is really useful for merging the docs from GNOME, I definitely need to mention it on our wiki
<Rocket2DMn> sorry was on the phone jbicha
<Rocket2DMn> i havent heard of or used meld, i'll have to check it out sometime.  Please do add it to the wiki
<Rocket2DMn> jbicha, do you know if the Canadian translation was fixed and the language pack has been released?
<jbicha> Rocket2DMn: sorry, haven't done anything with translations
<Rocket2DMn> ok no worries, neither have i
<Rocket2DMn> is doc.ubuntu.com not getting updated?
<jbicha> Rocket2DMn: apparently not, I don't even know how to update it
<Rocket2DMn> it's supposed to be updated from our trunk automatically
<Rocket2DMn> it would be really nice to get it fixed so that people can test serverguide fixes
<jbicha> Rocket2DMn: I assume mdke knows a bit more about it
<Rocket2DMn> jbicha, i assume so
#ubuntu-doc 2011-09-11
<travis_> hey guys
<travis_> I'm working on the documentation for a project...
<travis_> i needed a little help
<travis_> or advice, rather
<travis_> is there a list of preinstalled apps for natty anywhere?
<travis_> checked the website and google
<valorie> by pre-installed, do you mean included in the ISO?
<valorie> !info natty
<valorie> hmmm, no ubottu here
<travis_> sorry bout that
<travis_> thats what i get for opening more than one chat
<travis_> is that a command or what?
<valorie> it's the command for the bot
<valorie> you can use it in #ubuntu or #kubuntu
<valorie> and a few others
<travis_> !hddtemp
<ubot2`> Factoid 'hddtemp' not found
<travis_> !info hddtemp
#ubuntu-doc 2012-09-03
<bkerensa> jbicha: Any chance you or mdke_ might be able to respond to this https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2012-September/016800.html
<bkerensa> She also asked in August https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2012-August/016795.html
<jbicha> bkerensa: I'm not a wiki admin
<bkerensa> jbicha: Yeah I think she is seeking to know whether she needs to run something by the Doc Team Lead
<bkerensa> I think the problem is not know who runs the Doc Team or who to seek permission from?
<jbicha> I don't think anyone runs the Doc Team
<jbicha> if her group doesn't have commit access to what they need, they can submit merge proposals and poke us to approve them
<jbicha> then after that happens a few times, they can apply for direct commit access
<bkerensa> jbicha: Okie dokie :) I will let her know
<jbicha> maybe xubuntu-docs should be owned by the xubuntu devs, not the docs team
<jbicha> but that's a question for the mailing list
<jbicha> bkerensa: thanks for following up
#ubuntu-doc 2012-09-04
<antdillon> Hello, does anyone have access to edit help.ubuntu.com?
<jbicha> antdillon: sure, what page?
<antdillon> jbicha, Thanks its the search results page
<jbicha> oh, that's trickier, what's the problem?
<antdillon> jbicha, Can we load the the javascript using a secure domain
<antdillon> jbicha, So <script type="text/javascript" src="http://www.google.com/afsonline/show_afs_search.js"></script> to <script type="text/javascript" src="https://www.google.com/afsonline/show_afs_search.js"></script>
<antdillon> jbicha, This is due the Chrome blocking insecure content being loaded into a secure domain. Therefore in Chrome search results are not displayed
<jbicha> antdillon: could you report a bug for that?
<antdillon> jbicha, I have one here on ubuntu-website-content, which project is best?
<jbicha> ubuntu-docs is great
<antdillon> jbicha, Great thanks
#ubuntu-doc 2012-09-06
<roadmr> jbicha: hello! A favor, could you give your opinion on a UIFe/FFe bug? the ubuntu-doc thread is linked to in the bug: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/checkbox/+bug/1044037
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 1044037 in checkbox "[FFe] [UIFe] Controls in the test screen are confusing and should be rearranged." [Undecided,New]
<jbicha> roadmr: done (left comment on the bug)
<roadmr> jbicha: thanks so much!
<roadmr> now I only need to go pester dpm, mwhaha
#ubuntu-doc 2012-09-07
<head_victim> Can anyone suggest the best project to file a bug against wiki.u.c? I keep getting emails about pages I previously subscribed to but are no longer.
<bkerensa> hmm
<bkerensa> head_victim: Ubuntu Community perhaps
<bkerensa> but you could ping the mailing list or also file a RT bug with Canonical IS
<head_victim> Wasn't sure if that or -website would be best, looking at launchpad
<bkerensa> -website is mostly for www.u.c
<bkerensa> This is something that needs to be addressed thought our wiki platform needs updating and the doc team in general needs some organizing
<head_victim> The wiki was only just updated ;)
<bkerensa> I know CC is potentially going to be discussing this soon
<bkerensa> head_victim: that was just the design though? I believe the version of wiki is still old?
<head_victim> Hm, I thought it was the actual wiki version as well as themes.
<bkerensa> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SystemInfo
<bkerensa> Looks like we are pretty close to current
<head_victim> I'm just on a bit of a crusade to reduce the daily load on my inbox :/
<bkerensa> jbicha: do you know who has permissions to add wiki admins?
<head_victim> bkerensa: I believe that is phill bull unless I'm mistaken.
#ubuntu-doc 2013-09-02
<phillw> Hi folks, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/phillw/GettingStarted is a copy of what is shown to new people. It's a darn mess. :: SIGH :: We will have a play with it on my sandbox area, and then it can be discussed and edited. As Beta 1 is fast approaching, I'm not too sure how much time I can give to it. Please feel free to put your thoughts and ideas forward. Thanks, Phill.
<pleia2> phillw: can you be a big more specific than "darn mess"?
<pleia2> it's just a bunch of links to the actual docs that we've written
<pleia2> s/big/bit
<phillw> pleia2: look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/phillw/GettingStarted
<pleia2> I am looking at it
<phillw> that is a copy of it
<pleia2> it's a copy of our GettingStarted
<phillw> indeed...
<pleia2> aside from broken image links, what specifically troubles you about it?
<phillw> there is no explantion of anything.
<pleia2> no, it's just a list of links to things that explain
<phillw> pleia2: as mentioned in the email.. try https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Activities
<pleia2> oh sure, it certainly can be improved :) that's why I'm asking for your feedback
<phillw> just stating a topic is insufficient
<pleia2> this is just a first draft, please give us a break, we've worked hard this cycle to even get this far
<phillw> pleia2: hey do you know how many man-hours were put into the https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Activities ?
<pleia2> coming in here and complaining that something is a "darn mess" isn't particularly respective of the work we've put in this cycle
<pleia2> respectful too
<pleia2> so please, try to calm down a bit, we're doing our best
<phillw> pleia2: it's a darn mess, what I came here to ask, was we can do better :D
<pleia2> can you please use kinder words?
<pleia2> you're really being quite insulting right now
<pleia2> it's a very basic listing of resources, we'll work on improving it
<phillw> And, I'm quite calm, but for a n00b, they would have no idea of where to go. As you have told be off in the past on my classroom sessions, it does seem rather odd that having taken your advice on board I now get told off?
<pleia2> I'll go and pull out the broken images now
<pleia2> I am not telling you off, I really wish you'd stop usin that phrase :(
<pleia2> I am explaining that we're working very hard here, please try to respect that
<phillw> pleia2: please accept my apologies, but I am also getting fed up of people stating that "wiki is where documents go to die".
<pleia2> I never said any such thing, we're actively working on this wiki page
<pleia2> ok, removed broken links so at least it doesn't *look* like it's been abandoned anymore
<phillw> pleia2: you did not, others have. that is why I added the new tab. At least people will now know if the wiki page has gone out to die.
<phillw> s/the/any/
<pleia2> phillw: do you know where is the GettingStarted page linked? I can only find the direct system documentation pages
<phillw> pleia2: we *will* get that page sorted out. Once it has a bit of love and attention, it will be proposed to leave the sandbox area and re-join the main area. My words may seem wrong and attack mode at times, but I'm a wiki guy and *hate* instances when others can state we have got it wrong :)
<pleia2> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation should really be where folks start
<pleia2> that's linked directly on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam when folks look to contribute to system documentation
<phillw> I only held the docs getting started area whilst the team discussed things to make it more n00b friendly. It went live a couple of days ago. although, I am struggling to see the links that were in the final email
<pleia2> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/UbuntuDesktopGuide is where the one we were working on ended up
<phillw> pleia2: it could well be the cache on my broweser...  let me just kill it
<pleia2> GettingStarted wasn't appropriate for it, since it's very specific to Desktop guide, completely ignores wiki, server guide and everything else
<phillw> pleia2: so, where should be heading?
<pleia2> phillw: we can work on improving /GettingStarted if needed, but for now I think we should really focus on the existing docs
<pleia2> I just blogged earlier about the basics of how folks can get involved and linked to the appropriate pages: http://princessleia.com/journal/?p=8443
<pleia2> we still have a long way to go, but we're getting there
<phillw> pleia2: I'm quite happy to drop getting stated. As I mentioned on the ML - We have to do the best we can for 13.10, but really do have to aim for 14,04 LTS.
 * pleia2 nods
<phillw> Let us concentrate our scant resources to what we can. Where if https://wiki.ubuntu.com/phillw/GettingStarted is not a 'GO', where is?
<pleia2> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam
<pleia2> from there you look at the headings and see what you find interesting
<pleia2> if you click on "System Documentation" you get taken to the instructions for getting started with that, same for "Wiki Documentation"
<phillw> :: SIGH :: okies, you are the bosses. I'd rather the 'get involved' part have higher notification, just as Nicholas on QA/ Testing wanted me to highlight our classroom sessions on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Activities/ His view was that "I want to help" should be top of the list.
<pleia2> well the whole thing is "get involved"
<pleia2> fixed up the header so the broken Mentoring link is gone and everything is shiny
<phillw> pleia2: you do not know how much 'customer' input we held on that re-write :) But, their input, whilst stinging at times, was taken on board. We do forget the input of new commers.
<pleia2> the subheading pages linked in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation need a lot of work since many still mention DocBook, but one thing at a time
<pleia2> phillw: I guess I just don't understand what different material would go on a GettingStarted specific page, since all of https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam is already explaining what it is and how to get started
<pleia2> we have that root page, and a "Joining the Team" page and specific quickstarts for various types of documentation
<phillw> pleia2: indeed, we can only do so much at once.  But once I ask people to overview work and they get a messed up page that has no descriptions and broken links; the new comers are totally allowed to give me grief :D
<phillw> that is why we have testers :)
<pleia2> yeah, that broken /GettingStarted page really shouldn't be linked anywhere
<phillw> liz, I even have managed to have a broken link for lubuntu release. It happens; we need the testers to check these things out. It is not a failure, it is a mark of us having a testing system in place.
<pleia2> did you figure out where it's linked from?
<pleia2> (aside from the mailing list :))
<pleia2> I have to head out for a bit, will have to pick this up later
<phillw> pleia2: I'm off to bed, catch up later.
<bkerensa> pleia2: I have reviewed the collect screenshots tool
<bkerensa> and basically some programs it used are no longer shipped with Ubuntu
<bkerensa> and Unity has changed too so it seems to not know how to manipulate it to take screenshots at the right resolution
<bkerensa> its a mess
<bkerensa> :)
<pleia2> godbyk and I tried it out yesterday, he wrote some patches yesterday for it
<godbyk> bkerensa: Yeah, you have to install a few extra packages (see the comments at the top of the script).
<godbyk> I've written some code to check for and install the missing programs, but I haven't committed it yet.
<godbyk> I'm commenting the script a bit more, too.
<godbyk> Then I want to sort out the timing issues.
<pleia2> \o/
<godbyk> The script itself is quite brittle as it stands. It relies on a lot of assumptions.
#ubuntu-doc 2013-09-03
<godbyk> Hey, shaunm, are you around?
<shaunm> godbyk: I'm around now
<shaunm> godbyk: oh, seeing the bug now. that makes sense. I explicitly check env_shell before env_panel for the same reason
<shaunm> godbyk: does ubuntu set XDG_CURRENT_DESKTOP? what do you get from 'echo $XDG_CURRENT_DESKTOP'?
<godbyk> shaunm: XDG_CURRENT_DESKTOP is set to Unity.
#ubuntu-doc 2013-09-06
<bkerensa> pleia2: still getting no luck on info for what's new from any of the dev teams
<pleia2> bkerensa: yeah, I forgot that ubuntu wasn't doing a beta1 either, so no release notes :\
<crazyskeggy> I'm having trouble editing https://help.ubuntu.com/community/LinuxSecureRemix - I think it won't let me edit because it's immutable.
<pleia2> crazyskeggy: are you logged in? (your logged in name should appear somewhere in the top of the page)
<pleia2> if so, refresh a couple times, sometimes caching is a bit aggressive
<crazyskeggy> pleia2: no, but there is a "logout" link in the top-left, under the ubuntu logo
<pleia2> or try another browser
<pleia2> it needs to show your nick somewhere for the login to have fully been accepted
<crazyskeggy> pleia2: oh, ok - I'll try clearing cache first, then try firefox or IE (I'm using chrome)
<pleia2> chrome caching + help.u.c caching can be a troublesome mix at times
<crazyskeggy> pleia2: one odd thing i noticed: logging in on chrome it only said the site needed email & name - in Firefox it wanted my username too
<pleia2> ah, interesting
<crazyskeggy> pleia2: also, I don't remember setting any username during the signup
<pleia2> crazyskeggy: can you submit a bug with canonical? they run all this stuff, email to rt@ubuntu.com
<crazyskeggy> anyway, it's working now!
<crazyskeggy> sure!
<pleia2> username is what shows up after the ~ in the launchpad url
<pleia2> like mine is launchpad.net/~lyz
<pleia2> so "lyz"
<crazyskeggy> pleia2: i had only been on launchpad after i made my account - maybe it was the joining of the docs group that did it
<pleia2> ah, who knows :)
<godbyk> Hey, shaunm. Are you around?
<bkerensa> pleia2: so I have opened a bug about What's New and subscribed you mhall119 for tracking
<bkerensa> still no response on IRC from Desktop or Kernel Team
<shaunm> godbyk: what's up?
<godbyk> shaunm: Can I set platform=unity when the yelp script is exporting Mallard to HTML?
<godbyk> Or does that use the same internal check from libyelp?
<pleia2> bkerensa: are you just grabbing them on IRC? wondering if a mail to a list or showing up at their meeting might be better
<bkerensa> I will mail their lists too
<shaunm> godbyk: are you using yelp-build?
<godbyk> shaunm: Yeah.
<shaunm> are you already passing an extension stylesheet with -x?'
<godbyk> shaunm: Yeah. We have an ubuntu.xsl script.
<shaunm> right, thought so. add this to it: <xsl:param name="mal.if.platform" select="'platform:unity'"/>
<shaunm> (note the quotes inside the quotes in select)
<godbyk> shaunm: Okay, cool. I'll give that a shot.  Thanks!
<mhall119> thanks bkerensa
#ubuntu-doc 2013-09-08
<dsmythies> godbyk: I thought I would try IRC. (I am not very IRC savy). In your e0mail you mentioned "validation". I do not know how to to validation for desktop docs. For serverguide it is "scripts/validate.sh serverguide/C/serverguide.xml" (replace "C" with whatever language). How does one do a validation check for the dektop docs?
<dsmythies> Oh, and... Should I push the fixes for ubuntu-help/Makefile.am or do you want to, when you push other fixes?
<dsmythies> godbyk: I pushed ubuntu-help/Makefile.am along with two other changes. See rev 232.
#ubuntu-doc 2014-09-02
<pmatulis> wow, help uses .htaccess to redirect browsers to a language
<pmatulis> never would have thought to look there
 * pmatulis not a webmaster
<pleia2> interesting
<pmatulis> pleia2: not sure if this affects server guide only or not: http://paste.ubuntu.com/8217950/
<pleia2> pmatulis: probably impossible to tell w/o a login to where the .htaccess files live
<pleia2> that specific htaccess file is serverguide only, but other ones may have similar ones
<pmatulis> pleia2: understood, but this one is in the root of help.ubuntu.com
<pmatulis> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-doc/ubuntu-docs/help.ubuntu.com/view/head:/.htaccess
<pleia2> oh, I didn't realize that was in a repo!
<pleia2> so if it's in the root, then it applies to everything, only the last line is server only
<pleia2> looks like the URL used to have /C/ in it, but doesn't anymore, so we redirect
<belkinsa> pmatulis, are you willing to chair a meeting?
<pmatulis> sure, what are the steps?
<pmatulis> belkinsa: ?
#ubuntu-doc 2014-09-03
<belkinsa> Sorry, I was gone.
<belkinsa> On sec
<belkinsa> pmatulis, I wrote this up: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/belkinsa/sandbox/RunningAMeeting Also you need to read on how to use the meeting bot.
<belkinsa> pmatulis, I can send out the reminder tonight if you want
<belkinsa> pmatulis, I wrote that page up to help some folks in ubuntu scientists but still it works for all of the teams
 * belkinsa hugs pmatulis
<belkinsa> Thanks for running it for me.
<pmatulis> belkinsa: it was good for me.  thanks for giving me the opportunity
<dsmythies> Hi Everyone. I am just re-building one of my computers after a hard disk failure, and got this this point of pidgin IRC client. Just testing.
<pmatulis> dsmythies: we hear you loud and clear
<dsmythies> pmatulis: Thanks. By the way, I did read the logs from the meeting this morning.
<pmatulis> dsmythies: ok, ant is going to study the .htaccess file
<dsmythies> pmatulis: Yes, I saw. I am convinced that: The current file is obsolete; If the server is setup correctly, it shouldn't be needed at all.
<pmatulis> dsmythies: how does the language stuff work then?
<dsmythies> pmatulis: If multiview is enabled, it just works. That is how my server is setup, and I have yet to find a language that doesn't work properly, nor fallthrough to english (or whatever the next choice is in the firefox list) if the lanauage doesn't exist. Did I try all 60+ languages? No, but I tried several.
<pmatulis> dsmythies: ok, maybe pastebin your server config.  i had to use url rewriting to get it to work with my chosen web server (lighttpd)
<dsmythies> pmatulis: I do have notes on this in my log book, but I didn't find them yet. Maybe I am forgetting something. I'll post my config, but later.
<pmatulis> dsmythies: alright
<dsmythies> pmatulis: Actually, I think I'll convert the .htaccess discussion to a bug report and post my config there.
<pmatulis> dsmythies: ok
<pleia2> 16:01:31 -!- ubuntulog2 [~logbot@elderberry.canonical.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting-2
<pleia2> hooray :)
<dsmythies> pleia2: does that mean that #ubuntu-meeting-2 stuff will now appear in http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/ ?
<pleia2> dsmythies: yep
<dsmythies> pleia2: Thanks very much. (It is not mentioned on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/Bots )
<pleia2> you're welcome
<pleia2> it's a clone of ubuntulog
<dsmythies> Oh.
#ubuntu-doc 2014-09-04
<belkinsa> Not a problem, pmatulis.  Can you do it for the rest of the year?
<pleia2> doc team check in with the CC now, anyone about?
<pmatulis> whoah, i can try
<pleia2> it's over in #ubuntu-meeting
<pleia2> over now, thanks GunnarHj :)
<pmatulis> pleia2: what info do you need?
<pleia2> pmatulis: it's over
<GunnarHj> pmatulis: Missed you at #ubuntu-meeting. But I think they got the picture they needed.
<pmatulis> not sure what you folks are talking about.  was i supposed to have been somewhere?  was anyone invited somewhere?
<pleia2> pmatulis: the meeting started by talking about the docs team, that part of the meeting is now over and they are meeting with the quality team now
<pmatulis> ok, was anyone in the doc team invited?  besides the ping above?
<pleia2> the CC sent out all the emails telling the teams when their slot was at the beginning of the cycle
<pleia2> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2014-April/018904.html
<pleia2> we usually send a later reminder in case teams forgot, but didn't maange it this week :\
<GunnarHj> pmatulis: This is the log: http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2014/09/04/%23ubuntu-meeting.html#t17:02
<pmatulis> i see there was no mention of the cloud docs from canonical.  that was a pretty big item
<pmatulis> i notice that the desktop gets most of the concern, which is interesting
<belkinsa> I saw no reminder e-mail in our mailing list about that meeting before the meeting.
<belkinsa> And nothing in the mod list
<belkinsa> Ah, I see.
 * belkinsa never seems to read though fully
<andresmujica> Hi!
<andresmujica> I was wondering if anyone knows how to report a bogus Wiki entry
<andresmujica> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/steveballmer
<andresmujica> and a fake launchpad user?
<andresmujica> https://launchpad.net/~anthonyba
<belkinsa> Can you me a favor, andresmujica?  Can you e-mail our mailing-list?  You might get a better number of people looking athe e-mail than here.
<belkinsa> You don't need to join the list.  I'm a a mod.
<pleia2> andresmujica: you want #launchpad for the launchpad issue
<belkinsa> Or that.
<pleia2> rt@ubuntu.com for the wiki.ubuntu.com stuff, Canonical IS can take a look
<pleia2> (our team does help.ubuntu.com/community wiki, not so much the wiki.u.c one)
<belkinsa> Don't we have wiki admins though?
<belkinsa> Can't they do changes on the other one?
<pleia2> just because I can, doesn't mean I signed up for it :)
<belkinsa> Ah, I see.
<pleia2> I focus on the help.u.c/community, not wiki.u.c so I don't really know the rules there
 * belkinsa nods
<andresmujica> belkinsa:  pleia2 done.  I've sent email to rt and ubuntu-docs about the issue.  Thanks for your help!
<belkinsa> I saw.
#ubuntu-doc 2014-09-05
<pmatulis> msg chanserv op #ubuntu-doc pmatulis
<pmatulis> oops
* pmatulis changed the topic of #ubuntu-doc to: Ubuntu Documentation Team - home: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam | mailing list: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-doc | next meeting: Oct 1, 2014 in #ubuntu-meeting-2
<pleia2> \o/
<pmatulis> he he
<Atamira> mm
<Atamira> i dont know when was the last time the topic was changed
<pmatulis> Atamira: about 3 hours ago, why?
<Atamira> heh before you changed it that is. 3 hours ago i was at work
<pmatulis> Sun Dec  4 18:40:07 2011
<Atamira> there you go. my point exactly
<pmatulis> i'm sorry.  what is your point again?
<pmatulis> Atamira: i just got an email from you, funny
<pleia2> Atamira: hah, yeah, it had been a long time :)
<Atamira> its nice to have a change then. i think ive been in this room for like years now. this is probably the most anyones said anything.
<Atamira> maybe.
<Atamira> im sure theres been talking in here before.
<Atamira> maybe a coupla years ago
<pmatulis> Atamira: it's becoming more active recently
<Atamira> yay. thats a good thing
<pleia2> it's been active for about a year now ;)
<Atamira> i kinda lost track when i moved countries. 7-8 years ago
<pleia2> brought in a lot of new people over the past year, good stuff
<pleia2> (still need more though!)
<Atamira> there used to be alot more when it all first started
<pmatulis> Atamira: welcome back.  i hope to see you at our next meeting
<Atamira> just checked my roster. im working that day. depends on what time the meeting is?
<pmatulis> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/MeetingAgenda
<pleia2> pmatulis: maybe add that link after meeting date in the topic?
<belkinsa> pleia2, +1
<pmatulis> without the link it tells people right away when the next meeting is
<pleia2> it tells them the date, but not the time
<pmatulis> i can add the time
<pleia2> ok
<belkinsa> I think the link to meeting page, date and time is needed.  Not the channel where the meeting with be.
<belkinsa> will*
<pleia2> channel is important, else they might think it's here :)
<belkinsa> Good point, maybe all four?
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-doc to: Ubuntu Documentation Team - home: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam | mailing list: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-doc | next meeting: Oct 1, 2014 @ 17:00 UTC in #ubuntu-meeting-2
<pmatulis> we can pile a lot of stuff in there but we need to keep it legible
<pleia2> thanks pmatulis
<pleia2> yeah, and you can get to meeting info from the regular wiki link anyway
<pmatulis> of course
<belkinsa> Alright, that works for me.  But capitalize your first letters.  ;)
<belkinsa> Just kidding.
<pmatulis> nope :)
<ahoneybun> hey pleia2 I just got my bus ticket
<pleia2> ahoneybun: yay! when are you coming in?
<ahoneybun> wed
<pleia2> cool, my flight gets in wednesday evening
<ahoneybun> sweet I'll be there around 10pm wed
<pleia2> I'll probably just be hunkering down and resting wednesday night, so I'll see you at Ubucon on Thursday I hope :)
<ahoneybun> yea
#ubuntu-doc 2014-09-06
<ahoneybun> pleia2: ping
<pleia2> ahoneybun: hey
<ahoneybun> pleia2: I'll be rockin my ubuntu 14.04 tshirt the first day!
<pleia2> \o/
<pleia2> I never got one
<ahoneybun> its my first tshirt
<pleia2> :)
<ahoneybun> when though I'm rocking manjaro kde right now lol
<ahoneybun> https://plus.google.com/photos?pid=6009238434492873602&oid=110525358571541799848
<pleia2> no worky
<ahoneybun> the link
<ahoneybun> ?
<pleia2> yeah
<ahoneybun> darn well you'll hopefully see me in it thursday
<pleia2> yeah :)
<ahoneybun> darn well you'll hopefully see me in it thursday 18 hours up
<pleia2> haha
<ahoneybun> well off to netflix
<pleia2> enjoy
 * pleia2 heads off for the evening as well
#ubuntu-doc 2015-09-01
<dsmythies> There is supposed to be a doc team meeting over in #ubuntu-meeting-2 in 20 minutes. However the room is double booked, so we will have the meeting here instead.
<dsmythies>   #startmeeting Ubuntu Docs
<dsmythies>   #chair dsmythies GunnarHj
<GunnarHj> Hi there!
<dsmythies> Hi Gunnar, the meeting stuff doesn't seem to be working, but I see the bots.
<dsmythies> we never updated the agenda.
<GunnarHj> Ok. ( Personally I'm not too sad about the missing bot stuff. ;) )
<dsmythies> Does anybody have anything they want to bring up for this doc team meeting.
<pmatulis> we should probably clear out old items from the agenda
<GunnarHj> Maybe we should as who are here for the meeting?
<GunnarHj> as -> ask
<dsmythies> I wanted to bring up the recurring "Continued maintenance of the UbuntuHashes wiki page" item.
<dsmythies> Who is here for the meeting? Doug, Gunnar, Peter. Who else?
<dsmythies> Also, we have a conflict with #ubuntu-meeting-2. There is anothe meeting there on an every two weeks timeline, which sometimes conflicts with our 1st Tuesday of the month timeline.
<pmatulis> i am much more free than i was in the past
<pmatulis> i would be good with any time other than wed 9-11 EST
<GunnarHj> I'm flexible too wrt the meeting time.
<dsmythies> Peter: Would moving the meeting back to 17:00 UTC work for you? (Still Tuesday).
<GunnarHj> dsmythies: Will the conflicting meeting end within an hour?
<dsmythies> I think it has been, the last two times. I'll watch today.
<GunnarHj> Seems to be the tech board.
<GunnarHj> Back to 17 UTC is fine for me.
<pmatulis> ok
<dsmythies> Gunnar, Peter, seems nobody else is here for doc team meeting, so lets just terminate. Us 3 talk via e-mail and / or IRC anyhow.
<pmatulis> why not talk now? since we're here
<GunnarHj> I agree with pmatulis. Let's take this opportunity to talk about the current stuff.
<pmatulis> re hashes wiki, i'm not sure how we can do anything about it one way or another. can't anyone edit it? if it's locked down, i've been clear on the m/l. my vote is to get rid of it
<dsmythies> pmatulis: My vote is to replace it with the page we were working on. There is the person that has volenteered to maintain it, but he always has to be reminded.
<dsmythies> No, edit access is restricted.
<dsmythies> ... as it should be.
<GunnarHj> Yeah, we should go back to the plan we had before he volunteered.
<pmatulis> it would be great to get the number of hits on that page. i can ask the admin people. if it's a popular page then it makes sense to keep it, in some form anyway
<GunnarHj> the release team won't be interested enough to get involved, since several of them think the page is redundant.
<dsmythies> The issue always becomes HTTPs verses HTTP, however that is not our issue, and the people whose issue it is have already said they will not do it (an HTTPS page).
<GunnarHj> No, pmatulis, the problem is more complex. The page's popularity isn't a good base for decision.
<pmatulis> GunnarHj: how so? briefly :)
<GunnarHj> Maintaining it would be a natural task for the release team. They are not interested, since the information is available elsewhere.
<dsmythies> hits are available. seems to average about 500 hits per day.
<GunnarHj> So let's just replace it with a page which points to the information.
<dsmythies> I agree, repleace it with that page we were working on.
<dsmythies> Note: Hits can be misleading due to bots.
<dsmythies> This page: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuHashesProposed
<pmatulis> dsmythies: where to see hits?
<dsmythies> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuHashes?action=info&hitcounts=1
<pmatulis> dsmythies: yes, perfect, i agree with the proposed page
<GunnarHj> Then let's make a final decision. :)
<pmatulis> dsmythies: ok nice
 * pmatulis votes +1 for proposed page
<dsmythies> I move that we ask someone with access rights to replace the hashes page with the proposed one.
<GunnarHj> +1
 * pmatulis seconds dsmythies proposal
<dsmythies> And vote for the proposal (I don't know how to do it the way Peter did.)
<pmatulis> dsmythies: start a sentence with /me
<dsmythies> O.K. Motion carried. I'll do the follow up.
<GunnarHj> Can we talk abot dholbach's list message after the CC meeting with the docs team?
<dsmythies> Peter: I was proposing that if people are interested in a spring at the open help thing, they could try to do as many serverguide bug reports as possible, before we have to split it into 14.04 and trunk.
<dsmythies> Gunnar: go first.
<dsmythies> spring => sprint
<dsmythies> Gunnar: Give me a sec to re-read it.
<GunnarHj> Ok. I think the discussion about the lack of manpower and dholback's initiative deserve to be followed up somehow.
<pmatulis> yeah, can we get a link to that post?
<GunnarHj> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2015-August/019503.html
<pmatulis> thank you GunnarHj
<dsmythies> Gunnar: I agree. A good example, was for a cycle where we did have good contribution. We were very active on IRC and e-mail and even had a status task list speadsheet on google. It worked very well.
<dsmythies> ...In the end though, there were still only a few deeply involved.
<GunnarHj> dsmythies: I think that was the case right before I got involved. Then the activity dropped. :(
<dsmythies> Yes, and it was Kevin Goodby doing a ton of work on the desktop guide that cycle
<GunnarHj> Right. (And before him jbicha)
<GunnarHj> Possibly the situation is better wrt the serve guide. As regards the desktop guide I smell a crisis, especially when Unity 8 get started.
<pmatulis> what does daniel mean by 'Ubuntu Community Q&A'?
<dsmythies> yes, but jeremy, and somewhat Matt, tended to work in isolation. For example, I had not idea that the serverguide was being changed to a new theme. It just happened, and then we suffered side effects for years afterwards.
<GunnarHj> dsmythies: That's not the right way, of course...
<GunnarHj> pmatulis: Possibly the teams working with quality and bugs.
<dsmythies> GunnarHj: I think, but am not sure, that isolation occured due to overload. I think they just charged ahead and did stuff.
<GunnarHj> dsmythies: Agreed.
<dsmythies> I think there is a Q & A session every week or two or something. I'll try to find it.
<dsmythies> I think he was referring to: https://daniel.holba.ch/blog/2015/08/ubuntu-community-qa/
<GunnarHj> Latest log: http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2015/09/01/%23ubuntu-on-air.html
<pmatulis> a quick scan shows no doc person was there
<GunnarHj> True. I wasn't even aware of its existence...
<pmatulis> me neither
<dsmythies> I wasn't aware either.
<GunnarHj> Anyway, I don't think we will be able to solve the problem in this discussion. My intention of bringing it up was just to emphasize that we should respond properly somehow. I for one need some more time to think it over.
<dsmythies> I have been thinking also.
<GunnarHj> dsmythies: And? ;)
<dsmythies> Well, and as the past example shows, when we have some sort of critical mass and desire to get something done, it just works, without any specific times. In that past example, the string freeze deadline created the sense of urgency.
<dsmythies> also...
<dsmythies> at the time, Liz was somewhat active in a leadership role, which helped a lot (my opinion).
<GunnarHj> So in a sense you say that I'm worrying unnecessarily. Maybe you have a point...
<dsmythies> The valid worry is the continuing lack of contributors. Isn't it?
<GunnarHj> Probably. I think the situation would improve greatly if we could recruit someone who stepped up and assumed the desktop driver role.
<dsmythies> by the way, the meeting in meeting-2 ended at 17 after.
<dsmythies> GunnarHj: Yes, a desktop leader driver is needed. I wonder when Kevin is coming back?
<pmatulis> maybe we're being too nice
<dsmythies> peter: Go on.
<GunnarHj> pmatulis: How?
<pmatulis> i find there is a disproportionate number of critics compared to the number of people who actually work on the docs. i see this a lot on the m/l. everyone has an opinion and things go nowhere but we continue to strive for a high degree of democracy
<pmatulis> we're such a small group. maybe we *should* do what doug said mat and jeremy did
<GunnarHj> You mean just do things rather than talking about it? I agree completely. (Tend to do so already personally.)
<pmatulis> and perhaps we need more of a guerilla marketing approach to get people onboard. like sticking our necks out and offering to do impromptu hands-on tutorials on how to contribute or establishing a lightweight mentor program
<pmatulis> currently we depend on updating our wiki doc page hoping people will just appear
<GunnarHj> I like the mentor program idea.
<pmatulis> it's good to have that page updated but we shouldn't hope for much
<GunnarHj> Explicitly offering mentorship to people who want to get on board might be a very good thing.
<pmatulis> sending out general emails doesn't work well either. one guerilla approach might be to "nab" someone who has filed a bug or a newcomer who has done a little more
<dsmythies> Ted is a good example. We stepped in and helped when he got stuck woth his first serverguide merge proposals.
<GunnarHj> Hannie is another example (has been involved in the manual previously)
<dsmythies> I am not sure how to conclude this dicussion, but I have to move on to some other things now.
<GunnarHj> I don't think we need to conclude it. Some good thoughts were mentioned. Thanks! Let's keep thinking about it.
<dsmythies> I will keep thinking about it.
<GunnarHj> A brief report about the desktop guide - there are two things in my mind:
<GunnarHj> * Ask bregma about reviving the "What's new" page
<GunnarHj> * Add something about fcitx to the keyboard-layouts page
<GunnarHj> I have no other items for the meeting.
<dsmythies> Oh yes, string freeze is soon.
<GunnarHj> yep
 * dsmythies - afk for about 20 minutes
<GunnarHj> Ok. I'll keep connected to this room.
<pmatulis> btw, i'm not sure if i mentioned this to the team but i've recently moved out of the canonical support team to the canonical docs team :)
<pmatulis> in the last few months i've been steadily closing juju doc bugs. since juju docs are linked from help.u.c you can say i've contributing quite a lot to server docs ;)
<GunnarHj> pmatulis: That was news to me. Thanks.
<pmatulis> GunnarHj: juju docs uses github and not launchpad so i am now fairly acquainted with github web site and git CLI
<pmatulis> strangely, juju itself uses launchpad
<GunnarHj> Ok. I have never taken the time to learn git. Sometimes when dealing with upstream patches it would have been useful to master.
<dsmythies> pmatulis: News to me also. Thanks for the update.
<dsmythies> git: yes I use git almost every day now, as I pretty much only use the kernel.org kernel,, but with the Ubuntu kernel config file.
<pmatulis> dsmythies: why do you do that?
<dsmythies> pmatulis: I tend to work upstream for kernel stuff and therefore prefer to work on a compatible kernel. I have been working for a longtime now on the intel_pstate driver.
<pmatulis> dsmythies: you are doing code work for that driver you mean?
<dsmythies> pamtulis: I have been working on a patch set, yes. However, I don't know if it will ever be included. I first submitted it on 2105.04.11. In my opinion, there are issue with the driver in its current form.
<pmatulis> dsmythies: i had no idea. impressive!
<GunnarHj> I knew about it. Agree with pmatulis on impressive. :)
<GunnarHj> I'd need to do some off keyboard stuff. Can we consider the meeting be ended?
<dsmythies> Yes. Ended.
<GunnarHj> Ok. See you guys!
<pmatulis> bye GunnarHj, dsmythies
#ubuntu-doc 2015-09-02
<dsmythies> pmatulis: Do you know how to modify the reucrring doc team meeting booking in the fridge calender? If yes, could you change it?
<pmatulis> dsmythies: i'll look at it, yes
<pmatulis> dsmythies: so one hour earlier right?
<pmatulis> dsmythies: anyway, i put it an hour earlier, lemme know if it looks ok
<dsmythies> pmatulis: 1 hour later. we are changing to 17:00 UTC from 16:00 UTC.
<pmatulis> oh later dsmythies
<ahoneybun> damn still to earily for me
 * ahoneybun still needs to read the log from todays meeting
<pmatulis> ahoneybun: where do you live again?
<ahoneybun> us florida
<ahoneybun> that is 1pm for me
<ahoneybun> new time wise
<pmatulis> ahoneybun: so you cannot participate during working hours. is that it?
<ahoneybun> yea
<ahoneybun> I'm not in a tech job
<ahoneybun> on my feet in the kitchen all the time
 * ahoneybun needs to start getting ready for the 15.10 release docs wise
<pmatulis> ahoneybun: gotcha
<ahoneybun> new features in the latest KDE, screenshots, getting the docs hooked in the new website,
<dsmythies> pmatulis: It seems only September 1st time was changed. October November ... appear unchanged.
<pmatulis> dsmythies: grrr
<pmatulis> dsmythies: it *should* be ok now
<dsmythies> pmatulis: I see that the time seems to change by an hour based on daylight saving or standard time. However our meeting is based on UTC time. I also see that  the Tech board meeting does the same change, and so we end up in conflict again.
<pmatulis> dsmythies: damn
#ubuntu-doc 2015-09-03
<pmatulis> morning
#ubuntu-doc 2015-09-06
<ahoneybun> who is going to OpenHelp?
<ahoneybun> pmatulis: are you able to go to OpenHelp?
#ubuntu-doc 2016-09-08
<zaki> hello
<pmatulis> hello
#ubuntu-doc 2017-09-09
<gunix> hey guys. i would like to join the ubuntu documentation team
<pleia2> weclome gunix
<gunix> hey pleia2
<pleia2> it's pretty informal to get started, you just start contributing, have any idea what you'd like to work on?
<gunix> i am working as a sysadmin and i am also trying new technology every week. i run most of the test servers on ubuntu. considering the amount of tests i do, i think it would be good for everybody if I added the research to the wiki
<gunix> i wrote this yesterday: http://gunix.cloud/blog/wordpresscluster.html
<gunix> however, i had to test stuff for weeks before getting everything working. maybe there is another guy there looking to get a similar setup, and i can make his life easier
<pleia2> cool, so the wiki is a bit tricky, but in order to edit it you first need to apply to join this launchpad team: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-wiki-editors
<pleia2> once you're added to that team, you can log in with edit rights, but it has super strong caching so you may need to refresh a bit to stop the pages from showing up Immutable
<pleia2> (I know, it's awful, but the wiki is old and gets hit by spam a lot, sigh)
<pleia2> if you give me your launchpad name I can nudge the admin to make sure you get added
<gunix> my wife is meowing because she wants food, so i will go out for some pizza now
<gunix> i will apply via the editors link and send you a message
<gunix> my launchpad should be on gxgung@gmail.com
<pleia2> ok, I'm about to get on a train so I'll be a bit MIA, but I'll reply when I can
<gunix> pleia2: no probs, my irc is on a VPS so you can write anytime and i will check it when i am at a terminal
<pleia2> ok :)
<gunix> pleia2: i sent my request to noin the editors group. my name is Gheorghe Ungureanu
<davidcalle> gunix: just seen it, approving you
<gunix> wow davidcalle ! that was fast! i didn't finish even reading the code of conduct
<davidcalle> gunix: heh, for wiki access, there is no vetting other than checking you are not a spam account and have some actual *buntu background, nice article btw!
<gunix> thank you! i saw there is not page atm for ubuntu 17.04 server. should i write for 16.04 LTS ?
<gunix> *no
<gunix> as far as i understand this, wiki.ubuntu.com is maintained by the devs and contains mostly minimal information, but very relevant information about ubuntu. the community pages https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ will have various tutorials about all the software you can install
<gunix> aaand the comunity pages need some work as some of the tutorials are for ubuntu 9
<gunix> am i missing anything here?
#ubuntu-doc 2017-09-10
<gunix> is there any way to introduce categories for the ubuntu community pages, based on the ubuntu you are writing for?
<gunix> i was thinking about adding the version in the title
<gunix> ok guys, so i created this: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/HALAMP
<gunix> also updated the old one to point to the new one: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/HighlyAvailableLAMP
<gunix> added: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/HaProxy
