#ubuntu-accessibility 2010-10-25
<Pendulum> TheMuso: yay! I'm glad you're doing the Unity accessibility stuff!
<Pendulum> AlanBell: dutchie can one of you e-mail me the links to what we have so far on personas?
<Pendulum> Charline and I are going to meet at some point and discuss how they're coming and so I can get her feedback on what we have so far
<AlanBell> ok
#ubuntu-accessibility 2010-10-26
<leoquant> anyone a linkage to the livestreams from the uds orlanda? (wiki maybe?)
<IdleOne> I'm here! idling as requested :)
<Pendulum> hi IdleOne :)
<IdleOne> heya Pendulum 
<AlanBell> hi IdleOne 
<Pendulum> AlanBell: any chance you can write up stuff from that session and post to the list? I'm not going to get it done now and I want it out there ASAP
<AlanBell> ok sure Pendulum 
<AlanBell> will do in a few hours
<Pendulum> thanks
 * MichelleQ waves
 * AlanBell waves to MichelleQ 
#ubuntu-accessibility 2010-10-27
<nigelb> \o/ http://blogs.computerworld.com/17234/whats_really_going_on_with_ubuntu_unity
<AlanBell> morning all
<AlanBell> approaching the team reporting time again
<AlanBell> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Importance?action=diff&rev2=25&rev1=24 <- awesome change
<AlanBell> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/TeamReports/10/October
<AlanBell> TheMuso: ^^ want to add something about your new role?
<cprofitt> hello all
<cprofitt> anyone awake yet?
<Pendulum> hi cprofitt 
<Pendulum> I am aware
<Pendulum> coherent not sure about yet
<cprofitt> Pendulum: I would love you to look at the new wiki design -- to see about colors
<nigelb> haha
<cprofitt> let me link you
<Pendulum> k, I'll look quickly, but then I'm getting offline so I can not starve!
<cprofitt> I then need to work with Luke to ensure it works as he said -- I think it does from working with Charlie
<cprofitt> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility
<cprofitt> I stayed away from Orange
<nigelb> cprofitt: Of note, the same wiki shows up for kubuntu and edubuntu
<nigelb> It shouldn't look too much out of place
<cprofitt> k
<nigelb> https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Accessibility https://wiki.edubuntu.org/Accessibility
<Pendulum> pretty!
<Pendulum> I like it
<cprofitt> I am also working on a few sub pages as well
<cprofitt> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/GettingInvolved
<Pendulum> cprofitt: you rock my world
<cprofitt> lol
<cprofitt> ah... thanks
 * cprofitt blushes
<paul_h1> can someone please tell me which room at UDS the unity a11y meeting will take place?
<IdleOne> antigua2
<paul_h1> thanks
<IdleOne> @ 16:15
<meetingology> IdleOne: Error: "16:15" is not a valid command.
<IdleOne> hush bot
#ubuntu-accessibility 2010-10-28
<dutchie> what's 16:15 uds time in UTC?
<dutchie> or BST, if anyone is feeling UK-centric
<AlanBell> dutchie: 9:15 pm
<Pendulum> AlanBell: can you test the stream for bonaire 6?
<AlanBell> I can hear someone tapping
<dutchie> AlanBell: thanks
#ubuntu-accessibility 2010-10-29
<nigelb> AlanBell: Lovely email about unity :)
<nigelb> Especially <3 the followup ;)
<AlanBell> :)
<AlanBell> it was a reasonable question that will come up a lot over this cycle I expect
<AlanBell> we need to a) answer the question and b) defuse the hostility
<UndiFineD> on the orca mailing list they were panicing about ubuntu gnome support "being dropped"
<Pendulum> it's not being dropped!
<Pendulum> especially not the accessibility support!
<UndiFineD> I told them de cdimage package plans to integrate unity and gnome on the same disc
<Pendulum> yes
<Pendulum> because older machines can't handle Unity
<Pendulum> and also it means for people who don't like unity, it'll be easy to switch back to gnome desktop
<Pendulum> in fact, one thing we've discussed is that Gnome Shell will have the same issue and have to support both as well
<AlanBell> morning Pendulum 
<Pendulum> AlanBell: so I'm meeting with Charline at noon local time. thought you'd want to know ;-)
<AlanBell> great
<UndiFineD> one nick change and 20 channels are lit
<Pendulum> :)
<Pendulum> AlanBell: did you ever get around to checking askubuntu.com using orca?
<AlanBell> err no
<AlanBell> I did restart with orca
<AlanBell> and unity started up and I got all distracted by figuring that out
<Pendulum> ah
<Pendulum> any chance you could get to it before 21:15 BST?
<AlanBell> TIMEOUT: something has hung.  Aborting.
<AlanBell> orca is not happy :(
<Pendulum> in general or with askubuntu?
<AlanBell> in general
<Pendulum> unity?
<AlanBell> not sure what is causing it, but I will try and get it running
<AlanBell> however orca will work on the website I should think
<AlanBell> the issue is whether they have done good keyboard navigation for the site
<Pendulum> well it is javascript
<AlanBell> http://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/5207/stackoverflow-accessibility-with-screen-reading-software
<AlanBell> http://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/accessibility
<AlanBell> so it seems there are users of the stack overflow sites who use screenreaders
<Pendulum> yes, but not easily or well
<AlanBell> it uses javascript to put things on the page, but once they are there it is just html
<AlanBell> yes, seems they broke it for screenreaders and may or may not have fixed it by now
<Pendulum> and there is the one about the major regression
<Pendulum> yeah
<AlanBell> http://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/68898/how-accessible-are-the-stack-exchange-sites-for-users-of-screen-reader-software
<UndiFineD> well, orca does not even read the question you have asked
<UndiFineD> and then I got logged out suddenly
<AlanBell> I am quite impressed by the deuteranopia compiz filter
<AlanBell> there are some things like my irssi setup where channel names just dissappear for the colour blind
<UndiFineD> that can be a good thing
#ubuntu-accessibility 2010-10-30
<AlanBell> http://sourceforge.net/projects/odt2braille/ needs some work porting to linux and packaging for debian/ubuntu
<AlanBell> Bug #599206 
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 599206 in compiz (Ubuntu) "Typo in "protanopia" color filter (affects: 1) (heat: 29)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/599206
<AlanBell> yay, bug found and someone just fixed it upstream
<AlanBell> nigelb: what happens now with this bug? it is confirmed and fixed upstream. Can we get the fix into Maverick?
<AlanBell> how do we request that?
<AlanBell> just added a How to be Faisal section http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/faisal
<UndiFineD> AlanBell, did you try to contact Karl ? http://www.eklhad.net/
<UndiFineD> he is quite the blind geek 
<UndiFineD> ;)
<AlanBell> had a look at the website, but was too caught up in UDS to do anything more at the time!
<UndiFineD> i understand
<JanC> just like many longtime blind people he prefers the commandline it seems...
<UndiFineD> yes hes has used computers for even longer than i have
<dutchie> that guy has been using computers since before i was even born :)
<TheMuso> Such people will never be swayed from the console. Hell even some people in the community who are around now will never be swayed.
#ubuntu-accessibility 2010-10-31
<nigelb> AlanBell: well, on the next upstream release, debian will have the fix
<nigelb> and we can sync it
<nigelb> the quickest way to ease it is to offer an nmu to the debian folks or ask if they can do it themselves
<charlie-tca> AlanBell: good morning
<charlie-tca> What are the log files we need with dasher bugs to allow us to work them the easiest?
<AlanBell> morning
<AlanBell> the ones with line numbers!
<UndiFineD> heh AlanBell 
<AlanBell> if you can crash it whilst running under gdb you can see the code it stops on
 * AlanBell isn't really a gdb expert
<AlanBell> but I did get it to crash nicely once with gdb
<charlie-tca> heh
<charlie-tca> Okay. I will dig into it deeper then and see what I can do.
<AlanBell> nigelb: so how do we offer an nmu to debian (what is an nmu?) so that it is in debian in time to be pulled into Natty?
<UndiFineD> nmu = Non-maintainer upload
<UndiFineD> http://wiki.debian.org/NonMaintainerUpload?action=show&redirect=NMU
<AlanBell> interesting stuff, debian is complicated!
<UndiFineD> they are
<AlanBell> as this is an issue in compiz I guess it all depends when the next compiz release happens before it gets into debian testing
<AlanBell> and whether that is before or after the pull to Natty
<UndiFineD> AlanBell, is there a braille font ?
<AlanBell> http://packages.debian.org/testing/x11/compiz
<AlanBell> there is in TeX
<UndiFineD> ok, that is a bit poor
<UndiFineD> if we had such a font, it could overide the default in browser for example
<AlanBell> and there is this project which needs some help getting on Linux http://sourceforge.net/projects/odt2braille/
<AlanBell> UndiFineD: well it isn't much good as a font without an embosser of some sort
<UndiFineD> I don have the hardware, but it seems logical
<AlanBell> http://www.searchfreefonts.com/free/braille.htm
<AlanBell> I am not sure that a braille font would have much practical value in Ubuntu
<AlanBell> however it would be a great educational resource as one of the commenters on that page points out, she was teaching kindergarten kids about braille
<UndiFineD> me neither, but if this one truly is free, we could have it packaged for ubuntu
<AlanBell> all rights reserved
<AlanBell> ooh, there is a braille unicode block
<AlanBell> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Braille_Unicode_block
 * AlanBell files an enhancement request for the Ubuntu font
<UndiFineD> oh that will be great
<AlanBell> bug 669102
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 669102 in ubuntu-font-family "Expansion: include Braille U+2800 to U+28FF (affects: 1) (heat: 6)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/669102
<AlanBell> wow, bug 650729
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 650729 in ubuntu-font-family-sources (Ubuntu) (and 1 other project) "Expansion: Ubuntu Font should support pIqaD (Klingon) (affects: 1) (heat: 124)" [Wishlist,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/650729
<UndiFineD> subscribed
<AlanBell> UndiFineD: I think it is probably best to package a Braille font
<AlanBell> that code block is just the combinations of all the dots available, it tells you nothing about how to type stuff with it
<UndiFineD> true, I was looking for structure too
<AlanBell> and the use case of a teacher educating a class about Braille, or someone manually embossing a sign based on a printed template just needs a font
<AlanBell> !info console-braille
<ubot2> AlanBell: console-braille (source: console-braille): Fonts and keymaps for reading/typing unicode braille. In component universe, is extra. Version 1.2ubuntu1 (maverick), package size 27 kB, installed size 356 kB
<AlanBell> !info dots
<ubot2> AlanBell: dots (source: dots): A braille typesetting program for GNOME. In component universe, is extra. Version 0.0.20100108-2 (maverick), package size 12 kB, installed size 184 kB
 * AlanBell tests
<AlanBell> well dots is of interest to people typesetting books in braille, it gives LaTeX output by the look of it, which would feed into that TeX font with braille
<UndiFineD> http://www.fontspace.com/philippe-blondel/braille <- freeware
<UndiFineD> philing@philing.net
<AlanBell> http://www.rnib.org.uk/livingwithsightloss/readingwriting/braille/braille/codes/Pages/contracted_braille.aspx
<AlanBell> freeware does not neccessarily mean Debian standard Free Software
<UndiFineD> he has declared it royalty free
<AlanBell> yeah, just reading the license
<AlanBell> no modifications allowed
<AlanBell> not sure if that is a barrier or not
<AlanBell> Il faudra cependant, ni la modifier, ni changer son nom
<UndiFineD> with contracted it becomes much harder
<AlanBell> yes, but I think that is already quite well supported
<AlanBell> that is what dots does for you I think
<UndiFineD> I guess we would need word by word replacements
<AlanBell> what I want to do is deal with the non-skilled use of braille grade 1
<AlanBell> so a teacher would be able to use it in a lesson printing out the name of each child and getting them to make the bumps
<AlanBell> or someone could print a sign for a door and with a bit of metal, a nail and hammer mark it "Gents" or "Ladies" for example
<AlanBell> the "typesetting a book for the blind" use case is already well served with the TeX stuff
<UndiFineD> but it would be much eassier if a font would make the internet available to them
<AlanBell> that is what this is for -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refreshable_Braille_display
<UndiFineD> http://www.synapseadaptive.com/
<AlanBell> I wonder if some kind of Ubuntu dotty day would be a good idea http://www.rnib.org.uk/getinvolved/fundraising/localfundraising/dottydays/Pages/dotty_day_work.aspx
<charlie-tca> AlanBell: help. How do I get the screen-reader to move from the panels to the installer window? I am trying to install 10.04.
<AlanBell> hi charlie-tca 
<charlie-tca> Hello
<charlie-tca> what a deal!
<AlanBell> how did it get to the panels?
<charlie-tca> I used Ctrl+Alt+Tab
<charlie-tca> got to the top panel, picked install from the system menu. Now the screen-reader stays in the panel, even though I can get focus in the install window
<charlie-tca> using the mouse
<AlanBell> hmm, odd
<charlie-tca> With out the mouse, I seem to be stuck in the panel
<charlie-tca> heh
<AlanBell> I am using unity on 10.10 right now, not really sure on the panel navigation
<charlie-tca> well, we know we can't make the installer work in 10.10, but I thought 10.04 worked with orca
<AlanBell> it did!
<charlie-tca> weird
<charlie-tca> No keyboard combination is getting me from the panel after selecting install back to the desktop
<AlanBell> what is that new desktop recording application?
<charlie-tca> can't remember
<charlie-tca> not "recordmydesktop" ?
<AlanBell> no, something new that does audio as well
<AlanBell> I was going to do a video of a virtual machine doing the audio install for 10.04 and 10.10
<AlanBell> Kazam
<charlie-tca> I am doing the hardware install of 10.04. I will then email the steps to the release manager to attempt to do one.
<charlie-tca> hmm, my sound card comes up muted on the live cd environment and on the installation
<charlie-tca> by the way, AlanBell, I will be testing natty weekly for accessible install ability. 
<AlanBell> great
<AlanBell> my braille font is coming along nicely
<AlanBell> I have been meaning to learn Fontforge better for ages and Braille is so nice and easy to draw
<AlanBell> just six hollow circles and fill them in according to the wikipedia page
<charlie-tca> Glad to hear it. You do good things. 
<TheMuso> AlanBell: Oh sweet!
<AlanBell> I will do an article about it and what it is for
<AlanBell> it isn't for use by blind people directly as such
<AlanBell> but for teaching about braille, or as a template for manually embossing stuff
<TheMuso> Understood.
<TheMuso> It would be useful is there is ever a realtime braille/embossing app written for Linux, similar to how Duxbury presents information on the screen.
<AlanBell> there is something called dots which seems to do TeX output, I guess not realtime
<AlanBell> I think there are things to do the grade 2 contractions correctly
<TheMuso> Right.
<AlanBell> I think a font could contain some more common contractions as ligatures
<AlanBell> however that would be a bit confusing for the "teaching primary school kids" use case
<TheMuso> Yeah.
<AlanBell> http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/brailletest.pdf
 * AlanBell is quite pleased with that
<AlanBell> it includes all the letters and numbers ^ is the Capital letter follows symbol
<AlanBell> # is number follows
<AlanBell> and it includes Apostrophe, full stop, comma, semicolon, exclamation point, quotiation marks (opening and closing) brackets and hypens
<duanedesign> pretty cool alan
<AlanBell> oh and & is the contraction for "and"
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-10-24
<Fudge> hi guys
<Pendulum> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/community-p-accessibility-team-community-goals-
<TheMuso> Pendulum: Thanks, subscribed.
<AlanBell> how did that end up with a - at the end of the URL?
<valorie> so Mr. Shuttleworth mentioned the team: http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/810
<valorie> perhaps there will be some Canonical attention paid?
<AlanBell> yes :)
<AlanBell> I need to re-record those videos
<AlanBell> wonder what happened to the onboard in -proposed
<TheMuso> AlanBell: Has it been verified as ok?
<AlanBell> no, I verified it as not quite OK
<AlanBell>  the scanning keyboard has return mapped to 'e'
<TheMuso> right
<AlanBell> that has been fixed in trunk
<TheMuso> I think Francisco proposed a neer upstream version with more bugfixes. I guess I'd better link those two bugs together... I wish he just updated the existing bug.
<AlanBell> the version in -proposed has not been updated yet
<TheMuso> RIght, I haven't uploaded it, because I need to get the approval from the sru team.
<AlanBell> ok
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-10-25
<jakes> plz tell me how to install backtrack 5 menu in ubuntu
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-10-26
<TheMuso> apinheiro: Ah, just the person I'm looking for. I'm running your 3D PPA, and have noticed a bug with the quicklists. When you open a quicklist for the first time, the items can be read. However if you close it and open it again, nothing is spoken. have you seen this?
<TheMuso> This seems to persist accross uses of the launcher, i.e I can hide the launcher, do something for a while, go back to the launcher, open the same quicklist, and it still won't read.
<apinheiro> TheMuso, hmm, I noticed that but I solved, so that seems a regression
<apinheiro> it would be good if those branches get integrated 
<apinheiro> so you could open a bug for that
<apinheiro> I will ping njpatel and lamalex, as I asked for review two weeks ago
<apinheiro> TheMuso, btw, thanks
<TheMuso> Np.
<TheMuso> Do you mean file a bug for the quicklist issue?
<apinheiro> TheMuso, yes, but as those branches are not integrated on the master yet, are just part of a ppa
<apinheiro> probably doesn't make sense to open a bug for that
<TheMuso> Right, thats why I wasn't sure.
<apinheiro> TheMuso, for the moment I will write that on a personal TODO list
<TheMuso> Ok.
<TheMuso> apinheiro: Not sure if you will catch them this week, they are having a design sprint, and I don't know how much they will be checking IRC. I will likely see them next week, so I can poke them in person if necessary.
<apinheiro> TheMuso, ok
<Pendulum> apinheiro: also feel free to use me to poke people next week :)
<Pendulum> TheMuso: thanks for adding the eZoom to the polishing precise bit. I was just getting online to ask about that
<apinheiro> Pendulum, well, if you see Neil or Alex Launi, you could poke them to review my a11y branches ;)
<Pendulum> :)
 * Pendulum is going to see if she can have a sit-down conversation with neil at some point so should be easy enough to do :)
<TheMuso> Pendulum: I'm actually going to link a few of the key bugs to that blueprint, when I feel more mentaly fresh tomorrow.
<Pendulum> :D
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-10-27
<webczat> Hello, anything new?
<webczat> hey, anything new here?
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-10-28
<Pendulum> TheMuso: question I've never thought to ask, but can Orca read the schedule on Summit?
<AlanBell> technically it can, but it isn't a nice layout
<AlanBell> importing the ical feed to a calendar application is probably a better way to read it
<Pendulum> *nods*
 * Pendulum just got an e-mail from someone asking if they were allowed to participate even though they don't code and I realised I had no idea whether the schedule was going to be readable if they want to look for other interesting sessions or not
<AlanBell> also http://summit.ubuntu.com/mobile/
<AlanBell> might be useful
<AlanBell> summit really could do with a few "simple list" type views
<TheMuso> Pendulum: With some difficulty. Tables are always a challenge.
<Pendulum> is the ical export any more useful?
<Fudge> anyone ever experienced with lucid where the installer does not want to progress past the keyboard layout screen
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-10-29
<Fudge> hwo do u make init scripts boot in parallel
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-10-30
<Pendulum> TheMuso: I hope you made it safely!
#ubuntu-accessibility 2012-10-23
<Fudge> hehe
#ubuntu-accessibility 2013-10-22
<w0jrl> Good morning.
#ubuntu-accessibility 2019-10-25
<prometoys> hi, where do i find recent news about ubuntu a11y? like changelog, roadmap etc
