#ubuntu-uds-grand-ballroom-a 2012-05-07
<wookey_> win34
<wookey_> morning. Or possibly afternoon :-)
 * xnox 0/
<xnox> [TOPIC] anything missing from the schedule for the week?
<SpamapS> If anybody has thoughts on apt-get update reliability, there is an interesting conversation going on in grand ballroom C
<wookey_> I didn't see a multiarch/crossbuild session. Not sure if anyone cares particularly? Maybe I just missed it?
<wookey_> I guess we'll cover it in the aarch64 bootstrap session
<wookey_> OK. fine by me
<wookey_> No need for a separate session
<wookey_> yeah - what colin said :-)
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* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-grand-ballroom-a to: Track: Cloud & Server | Eucalyptus updates in 12.10 | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-q/meeting/20231/servercloud-q-eucalyptus/ | Audio: http://icecast.ubuntu.com:8000/grand-ballroom-a.ogg.m3u
<xnox> Can the note be moved to http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-q/meeting/20231/servercloud-q-eucalyptus/
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<Saviq> hey, if you guys will be showing slides, would be great if you posted them somewhere and pasted a link, thanks :)
<AlanBell> hi from upstairs
<AlanBell> It would be great if the slideshow was readable to orca, or speaks some useful alternative text for orca users
<AlanBell> I am happy to collaborate on writing such text
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<LLStarks> so, 3.5 is a definite, but is there anything to look forward to for 3.6?
<LLStarks> how complete is haswell and broadwell drm support expected to be for quantal?
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<LLStarks> domo arigato mr roboto
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<LLStarks> why so anal udsbotu
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#ubuntu-uds-grand-ballroom-a 2012-05-08
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<rnathuji> yes
<rnathuji> Yes
<rnathuji> We are running Openstack on AR
<rnathuji> ARM
<rnathuji> the package repo was the only issue I hit
<rnathuji> Btw, the package issue also exists in the cloud ami images (e.g. if you use those to deploy containers on OS)
<rnathuji> I've been using the AMIs online
<rnathuji> No, nothing else on my end
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<vibhav> Has the session started?
<xnox> yes
<xnox> there is open-monitoring distribution project
<xnox> it mounts tmpfs per nagios monitoring instance
<xnox> after ~50 tmpfs, nagios & check-mk do DDoS the systems
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<manjo> hard to hear what jk is saying
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<manjo> are we done here ?
<manjo> where is the UEFI session ?
<manjo> still in ubuntu-uds-junior-ballroom-2 ?
<manjo> cool thankjs
<manjo> ok that was loud and clear
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<ppetraki> o/
<ppetraki> multipath needs some work, it's more of an exposure issue
<ppetraki> MD too
<ppetraki> too bad I can't call in :(
<ppetraki> nope
<ppetraki> g+
<med_> hangout?
<ppetraki> perfect
<ppetraki> we're a function of our customers, as our exposure grows, we'll see more pain in things like storage and what not
<med_> you may have an invite now ppetraki
<ppetraki> huge lag
<ppetraki> that was fun :)
<ppetraki> I do
<ppetraki> PES Server
<ppetraki> hmm. wrt to storage, I see a huge spread between users who have no idea in even provisioning their new shiny equipment vs enterprise customers who expect it to work already. We really don't do well in either space.
<ppetraki> There's a "storage" chapter in the server guide now, DRBD could move there, DM-multipath already is, LVM and MD docs are in my queue
<ppetraki> isn't that what serial consoles are for?
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<girishr_> here
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<girishr_> any questions on qtmediahub, qtquick1 and qtquick2 welcome
<Saviq> o/
<Saviq> I actually meant that I did check out qmh before :)
<Saviq> so waving my hand :)
<girishr_> http://qt-project.org/wiki/QtMediaHub
<girishr_> package information for pi - http://wiki.qt-project.org/Devices/RaspberryPi
<Saviq> no, I'm fine thanks :)
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<sladen> +1
<sladen> there's another regression presently, in that when over-volume (eg. 150%), press "Volume Up" reduces the volume to 100%
<sladen> (this is illogical, pressing Up => reduction)
 * sladen smiles at the latency
<sladen> is this a question about four-pin connectors?
<sladen> IIRC this was asked about the last Sprint in Budapest, but David wasn't sure of the answer
<sladen> up and down, aswell as the single click (short/open-circuit the mic connector)
<sladen> BUT THIS ONE GOES UP TO 11!
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<charles> sladen: :)
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<sladen> :)
 * sladen *nods*
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<sladen> ta
<sladen> so Mac OS X is doing it on Mac-made hardware, and it works (in which case we probably could make it work)
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#ubuntu-uds-grand-ballroom-a 2012-05-09
<sladen> do we know if Mac OS X has wit working on eg. bog standard ThinkPad hardware
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<sladen> ThinkPad 4-pin connectors == hardware with the connectors, but not made by Apple
<sladen> anyway, question for another time David :)
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<erappleman> hi, my name is eric, i will be representing the bumblebee project and the hybrid graphics launchpad group
<erappleman> airlied has been very forthcoming with his patches and trees, but there has yet to be a comprehensive howto for compiling all of the prime components. all of my work has been compile-and-then-see
<erappleman> *all of my testing
<erappleman> all i have to go on is this: http://cgit.freedesktop.org/~airlied/xserver/tree/drv/TODO?h=drvmodelv2
<tjaalton> erappleman: that's the old branch?
<erappleman> there's no updated todo for v3 afaik
<tjaalton> oh todo, right..
<erappleman> in addition to the ddx, i've heard the libdrm, glproto, and maybe even mesa may need patching.
<erappleman> bumblebee is nice, but virtualgl is a very slow transport method from gpu to screen
<erappleman> btw, radeon optimus is now called enduro
<erappleman> ack, on the etherpad you guys list the acpi calls
<erappleman> we don't call these directly anymore
<RAOF> erappleman: Yeah, we need some mesa/glproto stuff to make this most useful - that will be buildable once we actually have the foundational support.
<erappleman> bbswitch is a catch-all for all calls including quirky machines like the lenovo y570
<erappleman> RAOF, this uds meeting has been more ambitious than i was expecting. so i'm hopeful
<erappleman> tjaalton, what kind of ppa are you proposing?
<tjaalton> erappleman: one with all the latest crack needed for this
<tjaalton> xserver, ddx's etc
<erappleman> nvidia says they CAN support optimus if export_symbol is adopted for dma-buf
<erappleman> tjaalton,  that would be sweet
<erappleman> wrt to ati cards, i'm not sure where catalyst and radeon is at for intel+radeon
<erappleman> amd+radeon is usually better supported for hybrid graphics
<erappleman> RAOF, what kind of work have you done with vga-switcheroo? is there a public code repo?
<RAOF> erappleman: No; what I've done so far is an upstart script that automatically switches off the unused GPU on boot.
<RAOF> It's not particularly complicated, but it's got some awkward edge-cases.
<erappleman> what kind of calls are made to the gpu? if the pci address space isn't saved, the card won't always turn back on correctly.
<RAOF> On the systems I was using it wasn't possible to use the card _at all_, so I never tried turning it back on again.
<RAOF> I presume that vga_switcheroo knew how to enabled/disable cards, though?
<erappleman> it can disable cards, but it's not meant for optimus without heavy patching
<erappleman> https://github.com/Bumblebee-Project/Bumblebee/wiki/Comparison-of-PM-methods
<erappleman> airlied built it for ati cards
<james_> https://github.com/Bumblebee-Project/bbswitch/issues/2#issuecomment-3797568
<RAOF> Ok.  I'm not sure how much we care about that, as long as it's opt-in, because it's otherwise just pointless power consumption.
<RAOF> Because we have no supported way to use the other card.
<erappleman> it would be easier to upstream bbswitch than turning off the card with a script. it's very robust.
<erappleman> james, blame lenovo for their garbage non-standard bios
<erappleman> nvidia already yelled at them
<erappleman> made sure of that
<bilal> It's been a year and a half since Nvidia said NO to Linux optimus support. Are they willing to do something like AMD did with FGLRX anytime soon?
<bilal> Of course none of us know, but asking, just in case.
<tjaalton> bilal: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/dri-devel/2012-January/018249.html
<erappleman> bilal, they've moderated their stance to "possible, if we get our way with the new dma-buf mechanism"
<erappleman> tjaalton, can i add an open question to the pad?
<tjaalton> erappleman: go ahead
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<homi> question: if  dam-buf is out of reach for current cycle can we at least have gpu switching via reboot for more models without BIOS possibility to set primary GPU but have the needed hardware mux? (there is a thread @ ubuntuforums where it seems to work for one specific model of eeepcs with intel integrated / nvidia. I guess there are more models that possibly allow this )
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<homi> with acpi_calls
<homi> see http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1677780&page=16
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<tjaalton> homi: follow up on #ubuntu-x
<homi> k ;)
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<erappleman> yay  btrfs time
<Faqtotum> :)
<erappleman> it's like butters from south park. everyone likes it, but the code is socially awkward
<Faqtotum> fsck that
<erappleman> you can't
<erappleman> that's the problem
<Faqtotum> exactly
<shirgall> audio stream seems, um, empty
<shirgall> I heard that
<Faqtotum> "butters" has all the letters of "btrfs" except one, too
 * xnox how is the audio stream? =)
<shirgall> btrfs.fsck is seriously missing a vowel movement.
<shirgall> xnox: we can barely hear
<Faqtotum> speakers in this session are pronouncing it "butter fs" whereas i previously always heard "better fs"
<xnox> shirgall: there is a recent branch/repo 'donotuse' which has an 'improved' implementation of fsck
<shirgall> filesystem check is costing me a lot of boot time that never actually fixes anything
<xnox> but it's not declared production ready as far as I know
<xnox> http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTA2MDI
<shirgall> Doesn't take as long as "balance" :)
<shirgall> There's still that stupid message on boot "Sparse file not allowed"
 * xnox notes on the etherpad are quite extensive and 'real time'
<shirgall> xnox: yeah, but I didn't want to add somehing unless it had been mentioned
<xnox> i did =)
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<sladen> default seems to equal *pinkness* :)
 * sladen waves a ColourHug
<sladen> PS. although the dialogue it comes up automatically, to complete the calibration, you need to have a newer version of Argyll from the PPA
<sladen> https://launchpad.net/~pmjdebruijn/+archive/gcm-colorhug/
<sladen> argyll 1.3.1 vs. argyll 1.3.5
<sladen> hey
<sladen> yup, if somebody could take some "action shots" of loads of calibration going on
<sladen> we can write it up afterwards
<sladen> perhaps put all the laptops side by side
<sladen> a row of people, each holding their laptop showing eg. the desktop background
<sladen> and then the same row of people afterwards again, still holding their laptops, but now looking the same
<sladen> (brightness fiddling may be required)
<sladen> screenshots will look the same
<sladen> == pointless
<sladen> you need to shoot externally with a camera
<sladen> the one thing I haven't completely understood is the need to "set a matrix" afterwards
<sladen> which I'm guessing is perhaps something to do with white-point(?)
<sladen> the "4 minute" one for me took about 20 minutes
<sladen> so start early.  It keeps looking as those it has hung.  We probably need to do some improvements to give a count down/up
<sladen> rather than just a pulsing progress bar
<Lekensteyn> erappleman: are there minutes or public notes for http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-q/meeting/20691/desktop-q-hybrid-graphics/ ?
<sladen> erappleman: is that a different session?  Current one is  http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-q/meeting/20487/monitor-calibration/
<sladen> that's my impression too
<sladen> I suspect it's actually broken, and needs debugging
<sladen> I suspect the "4 minutes" is not actually making any difference
<Lekensteyn> sladen: what time is it currently? It's 9.30 pm here (UTC+1), but the summit.ubuntu.com website speaks of 12:00 for the current subject http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-q/meeting/20487/monitor-calibration/
<sladen> everything is ready, except argyll (can be backported)
<sladen> Lekensteyn: 12:28.  I did  Date & Time -> Time & Date settings -> Clock -> Choose Locations -> [+] -> Oakland
<Lekensteyn> oh right, I've forgotten that the event is happening in Oakland >.>
<sladen> Lekensteyn: you're also probably on UTC+2
<Lekensteyn> then I've probably mixed up UTC and GMT
<sladen> UTC and GMT are generally the same
<Lekensteyn> except for summer time
<Lekensteyn> anyway, I see a link to a pad (notes), but these are private. Can a public link be shared?
<sladen> Lekensteyn: at the moment you're one hour ahead of London which is one hour ahead of UTC
<Faqtotum> utc IS gmt as far as computers are concerned; neither is subject to "summer time"
<Faqtotum> oakland is on utc-8/gmt-8 in winter and utc-7/gmt-7 in summer
<sladen> Lekensteyn: you need to  https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-etherpad/+join
<Lekensteyn> ah, I've registered. Now I'll wait for approval then. Thanks for your help
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<Effenberg0x0> If we create a rule in which all ISO-Testers of Desktop ISOs will be forbidden to report any bug about Ubiquity, Grub or Jockey. Would ISO-Testing results still be valuable?
<micahg> Effenberg0x0: why would we do such a thing?
<Effenberg0x0> Because looking at this, I think that, for a new cycle, Ubiquity is the most mentioned word. And the rest is VGA/NIC kernel module loading/proper installing. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/ReleaseReports/PreciseFinalTestReport
<micahg> Effenberg0x0: yes, and installer bugs are critical to be fixed before release to actually insure installability
<Effenberg0x0> So, since we know this are weak and reliable areas, why not just fix it instead of testing it over and over again
<Effenberg0x0> Make a task force, do our best to improve it.
<micahg> I think there is great effort in fixing various issues (if it's known, maybe whoopsie will catch it now)
<Effenberg0x0> Hopefully. I mean, I don't think we need more bugs about Ubiquity, Jockey. Ok, we know it needs to be worked.
<micahg> Effenberg0x0: it's all open source, feel free to start hacking :
<micahg> :)
<Effenberg0x0> How do we join enough people to focus only on testing and fixing it in this cycle
<Effenberg0x0> Well, I'm the tester. Am I to be the developer too?
<Effenberg0x0> Thanks :)
<Effenberg0x0> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/ReleaseReports/PreciseFinalTestReport
<Effenberg0x0> Look here
<Effenberg0x0> Please
<Effenberg0x0> Count the number of words Ubiquity
<micahg> Effenberg0x0: yes, that's fine, if we keep finding the same bugs, yes, that's an issue (one that whoopsie should help with, although I'm not sure about from the installer)
<stgraber> we're quite a few working on ubiquity and d-i, it certainly is one of the package with the most bugs listed in the release notes
<Effenberg0x0> Yes, since Lucid
<stgraber> however there's a good reason for that, as any bug in ubiquity or d-i automatically become release notable
<stgraber> as there's no way to fix them post-release
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<Effenberg0x0> I think it's OK already. We don't need more bug reports to say "hey, look, this things needs some focus"
<stgraber> I'm not sure what makes you think it needs more focus, it's in the top 10 of the most updated packages in Ubuntu
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<stgraber> it has a team of 3-4 active contributors and has a dedicated QA person just to triage these bugs
<stgraber> what we need is for people to stop reporting duplicate bugs so we can actually spend our time fixing bugs instead of just merging bug reports
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<Effenberg0x0> stgraber, that's what I mean. How do we stop and say "Hey, what do we have to do to bring attention of the community to make it perfect"
<Effenberg0x0> or whould we agree that it is something unreliable and that we should move to anaconda for example
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<Effenberg0x0> Time :\
<stgraber> oh, another reason for all the bugs is that it's the only package in the Ubuntu archive that's allowed to report results post-release
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<stgraber> ubiquity is globally very reliable, though the problem is that with million of users, any given corner case will have quite a few people hitting it, most of them blindly reporting the bug and never giving us what we need to fix them
<stgraber> so we end up having known bugs that nobody can reproduce that are just sitting there until someone else can reprodce the bug and provide the information we asked 3 years before
<Effenberg0x0> stgraber, would it be the case to select a group of skilled testers, join with developers, work together
#ubuntu-uds-grand-ballroom-a 2012-05-10
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<stgraber> Effenberg0x0: the QA team is usually providing us (installer developers) with what we need to track down a bug and fix it, though that usually takes a few days per bug so kind of hard to do at the last minute
<stgraber> and there's only so much time for the QA team to setup their test environment for any known weird setup
<stgraber> anyway, got to run
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<dpm> http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-q/meeting/20684/community-q-translations-roundtable/
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<radix> Is the audio stream supposed to be not working right now?
<NMinker> working for me
<radix> oh, there it goes
<tsimpson> radix: it resets on the hour, every hour :|
<radix> okay, I'm listening now
<NMinker> Can you put a link to the blueprint in the pad or the chat?
<NMinker> thanks
<xnox> Your welcome =)
<NMinker> Is the python3-defaults source packaging going to be replaced with python-defaults for Quantal?
<doko> NMinker, no
<NMinker> okay
 * xnox interesting
<radix> hi!
<radix> :-)
<radix> Well, it'll be a big effort :)
<radix> I can probably work with that GSoC student, too.
<radix> Yeah, build slaves always help
<radix> I can help shepherd the patches and make sure they're reviewed and all that stuff.
<radix> and generally put them through the development process
<radix> np :)
<radix> I'm going to be afk. If anyone wants to talk to me more about twisted, mention my name in IRC please
<NMinker> Dang, this Python 3 wiki page really easy to follow
<nxvl> what about creating a pkg- mailing list like debian does?
<nxvl> to center all the efforts there
<xnox> nxvl: ubuntu-devel?
<nxvl> xnox: but a python-3 central i mean
<doko> nxvl, you'll get flamed or choosing this name ... ;-P
<doko> for, even
<nxvl> doko: yeah i know
<xnox> =)))
<nxvl> doko: i'm not suggesting the name, just the ML, call it however you want :D
<ChipaPhone> as for "python 3 only on the 12.10 cd", can we at least keep the linux kernel? then init=/usr/bin/python3
<ChipaPhone> :-)
<xnox> ChipaPhone: loads of smiles in the room from your comment ;-)
<nxvl> Still there are upstream like Django that don't have python3 in their roadmap, and most web developers will be disappointed about this
<nxvl> and don't know much about other python web frameworks but i assume that's the case
<ChipaPhone> django has py3 on the roadmap, now
<ChipaPhone> https://www.djangoproject.com/weblog/2012/mar/13/py3k/
<nxvl> ChipaPhone: yes, but still experimental
<nxvl> ChipaPhone: not good enough for developers
<nxvl> ChipaPhone: which kinda sucks
<ChipaPhone> baby steps
<nxvl> ChipaPhone: yup, but with something like this we will push people to use virtualenv or compiled sources and be vulnerable to un-updated libraries and python packages
<cjwatson> python (2) isn't going away any time especially soon, though - for 12.10, we're talking about dropping it from the CD, not even from main
<nxvl> sure
<cjwatson> django is not something where you restrict yourself to what's in the desktop CD
<nxvl> oh yeah i agree
<ChipaPhone> wait, we
<nxvl> i'm thinking as a sysadmin/developer
<ChipaPhone> wait, we're not shipping django on the cd?!?!
<ChipaPhone> </troll>
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<tgm4883> o/
<tgm4883> hi
<jhodapp> hello
<tgm4883> :/
<tgm4883> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuTV/Contributing
<tgm4883> if that is still valid, there is a link to the LP code there
<jhodapp> it's definitely still valid
<tgm4883> ok
<tgm4883> I hope it's going to be at least a little different
<dscassel> ls
<dscassel> >_>
<tgm4883> limiting it to new TV's only really limits who is going to use it
<tgm4883> I'd rather have it installable on my own hardware
<tgm4883> Ideally, we should be able to apt-get ubuntutv and the tv bits get added into the desktop
<Faqtotum> tgm4883: that was exactly the point i just made
<tgm4883> Faqtotum, my audio might be a bit behind :)
<Faqtotum> it's why i brought it up
<tgm4883> great minds think alike
<Faqtotum> my typing is behind, btw
<Faqtotum> i started to type it, but decided to say it instead when mhall119 asked for comment
<tgm4883> documentation
<tgm4883> an installable environment for us scope/lens builders
<tgm4883> Ideally a daily PPA
<dscassel> Any consideration for a quickly profile for apps/lenses?
<tgm4883> regarding scopes/lenses, is there going to be a way to get metadata type things into a lens? If I'm looking at the right documentation then I'm only able to hand over "Uri, Icon Hint, Category Index, MimeType, Name, Comment, DND URI", which works well for regular file objects, but not so well for things like movies and episodic content
<tgm4883> dscassel, good question!
<dscassel> In order to get the community interested, it's gotta run on commodity hardware somehow.
<bilal> dscassel: let me get your question pointed out
<dscassel> Thanks, bilal :)
<tgm4883> Lots of people still use tuners
<tgm4883> I wouldn't be wasting my time writing a Ubuntu TV scope for MythTV content
<tgm4883> YES YES YES whoever just said we need to add functionality for episodic content :)
<dscassel> tgm4883: Agreed. :)
<tgm4883> you are exactly right
<tgm4883> open movie project stuff is good
<tgm4883> It's important to get more than just apple trailers when testing playback. Specifically because you should test things that won't be offloaded to the GPU
<tgm4883> eg. mpeg2
<tgm4883> Arrow buttons + on screen keyboard should be all that is necessary
<ejat> juju deploy ubuntutv
<tgm4883> Something we've always had on the roadmap but never implemented is TV setup options (eg. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Test_card ).
<tgm4883> Would be nice to see this added somewhere ^
<tgm4883> audio testing as well
<dscassel> Quickly! Yes!
<bilal> tgm4883: I don't think it would help in the case of smart TVs
<bilal> we are past the CRT age
<tgm4883> It's used for setting up color balance
<tgm4883> brightness
<tgm4883> etc
<tgm4883> exactly
<bilal> tgm4883: Do you want the test card work item for making a test card app?
<tgm4883> sure
<tgm4883> My audio is apparently lagging alot :/
<bilal> tgm4883: is your lp nick the same as tgm4883 /
<tgm4883> yea
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<jhodapp> thanks everyone!
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<lifeless> o/
<lifeless> we don't want to *discuss* each occurence
<lifeless> its a poor ideal scale wise
<lifeless> any suggestion of dicusssion with us on a particular failure -> would be a lie
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<seiflotfy> ----
<seiflotfy> Zeitgeist starts logging from the time its installed. It can not dig into the past.However we have a workaround toÂ retrieveÂ the history out of a folder and inform Zeitgeist about it. Simply download theÂ following scriptthen use it like this:python history.py /path/to/folder/path/to/folder being the folder you want to pull history out of example: /home/seif/Documents
<seiflotfy> ----
<seiflotfy> http://seilo.geekyogre.com/2011/10/zeitgeist-history-retrieval-script-and-additional-loggers/
<seiflotfy> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7162902/history.py
<popey> hang on, while we get the other items on johns list
<pmatulis> note: i discovered that ubuntuone-syncdaemon and zeitgeist-daemon can bring U1 sync'd systems to their knees if a non-trivial amount of data is being processed over U1
<pmatulis> cpu load went off the scale on sync'd systems
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<pmatulis> oh well
<jbicha> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ILTJDiDCd25Npt2AmgzF8aOnZZECxTfM0hvsbWT2BxA/edit
#ubuntu-uds-grand-ballroom-a 2012-05-11
<seiflotfy>  http://minus.com/m7ZarkzJM/
<jbicha> pmatulis: Seif said that the Ubuntu One integration bug should be fixed
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<pmatulis> jbicha: ah thanks
<pmatulis> bug number?
<jbicha> pmatulis: follow up with seiflofty
<pmatulis> jbicha: ty
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<cprofitt> morning
<SpamapS> Hey guys, I am listening in, and I am interested in this and can answer detailed Juju questions.
<cprofitt> ok
<cprofitt> we are not ignoring IRC
<cprofitt> :-)
<SpamapS> Those would all just be packages IMO.
<SpamapS> <-- A gatekeeper for the juju charm store.
<SpamapS> I have some ideas on how to build processes around gathering and catering these workflows, as I've been in charge of doing that with juju :)
 * SpamapS is Clint Byrum FYI :)
<SpamapS> OH NOT THAT GUY!
<cprofitt> nice palindromic nick
<SpamapS> So you basically have two things. You have workflows for apps, and you have information providers that abstract system details to make it easier to write the workflows.
<SpamapS> Thats the subtle power of Juju for cloud/server apps is that the charms are super easy to write because you don't have to learn "the cloud".
<SpamapS> I don't think juju itself is useful for this.
<SpamapS> but the ideas from juju map well to this idea
 * cprofitt agrees
<SpamapS> GOOD NAME!
<SpamapS> voodoo is the evil version of juju
<SpamapS> have you thought about how to collect and distribute these "charmlings" ?
<SpamapS> Make them easy to write and/or record.. #1 reason charms get people excited is that they are easy to write.
 * cprofitt agrees
<SpamapS> Guys I have to go listen to another session. Very interesting stuff!
<SpamapS> ping me in here if you need me and I'll come back to this audio feed
<SpamapS> I'm more talking about how to distribute and collect them from/to users not on the actual machine.
<SpamapS> Like if user A has an awesome workflow.. you don't want to wait until the next release of Ubuntu to get that to users.
<SpamapS> juju charms are ways to extend Ubuntu post-release
<SpamapS> something 'official' is useful for the user trust and adoption
<SpamapS> vudu ;)
<SpamapS> ok I'm off the audio feed.. cheers!
<cprofitt> k
<cprofitt> thanks for coming SpamapS !!
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<drussell> one other thing back to xorg... flicker free resume from suspend? (I see a bunch of virtual console spam on resume each and every time... sorry no bug filed yet but happy to demo to anyone interested ;o) )
<RAOF> drussell: System compositor should fix that (although isn't strictly necessary); we just need to not VT switch on suspend.
<drussell> RAOF: cool, is there an already existing bug I can subscribe to?
<RAOF> drussell: Not that I can think of offhand, sorry.
<drussell> RAOF: no worries
<gua-uds> is there anything official (or 'officialish') about windicators? being a priority or not for 13.04, 13.10, etc
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<jamespage> o/
<cmagina> listening, no comments
<cmagina> thanks
<cmagina> you too brian
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<NMinker> greetings Daniel
<dholbach> hey hey NMinker :)
 * micahg waves from another room
<micahg> I think overall we're doing a lot better with SRU/backport requests
<micahg> Can we add lintian instructions to the packaging guide
<micahg> that might catch quite a few things that a sponsor should flag
<micahg> perhaps we can half a stripped down lintian profile for SRUs since quite a bit of stuff we wouldn't allow in an SRU
<micahg> s/half/have/
<micahg> can we get requestbackport to warn if source changes for build deps are required?
<tumbleweed> micahg: hrm, seems doable
<micahg> hmm, testing requirements for backports are much lower than SRU
<broder> i think that's actually false in practice
<broder> especially for anything with a reverse dep
<broder> there's no explicit reverse dep testing for srus
<micahg> yes, well, we generally don't allow invasive changes in an SRU either :)
<ScottK> And I don't recall a case were builds/installs/runs wasn't sufficient (except in the case of rdepends)
<micahg> right, usually bugs are found in the main archive version as well
<SpamapS> o/ listening in now
 * ScottK is just on IRC.
 * micahg is also just on IRC
<broder> ScottK: what's an example of when a backport went wrong?
<ScottK> svn on hardy
<ScottK> Tested a selection of rdepends and got totally screwed.
<micahg> flashplugin-nonfree on hardy
<ScottK> That one too.
<ScottK> That's actually the one non-rdepend one I can think of.
<ScottK> (I'd forgotten - painful memory)
<broder> ScottK: discussion in-room is about relaxing the testing requirements since notautomatic is on
<NMinker> ah, hardy, the first ubuntu i ever installed
<broder> we can possibly be a bit less conservative
<ScottK> I don't know what's less conservative than builds/installs/runs
<micahg> broder: the issue is that NotAutomatic helps for rdepends in backports, not rdepends already in use on the system
<broder> ScottK: b/i/r on r-deps
<broder> the rdep testing is what's expensive
<ScottK> What it means is some stuff won't get backported.
<ScottK> I'm not sure how else to deal with it.
<ScottK> The official rule was no library backports.
<ScottK> We bent that via extensive testing.
<ScottK> When we didn't do the testing, we've gotten burned.
<ScottK> Not sure how to draw a line.
 * broder nods
<ScottK> OTOH, if someone in ubuntu-backports wants to accept the risk, I don't strongly object to that as long as they also accept responsibility for cleaning up resulting messes.
<broder> ok. we're moving on to some other stuff; laney is going to follow up by mail
<ScottK> K.
<Laney> ahem.
<SpamapS> I feel that I am humbled by archive admins :)
<micahg> SpamapS: aren't you an archive admin?
<SpamapS> micahg: not technically ;)
<SpamapS> micahg: I need to finish my training
<SpamapS> re SRU self verification.. I think it would be fine IF we make the burden of proof higher than "works for me!"
<SpamapS> The 7 day backing period needs to be backed by popcon numbers if thats what we're goign to use.
<SpamapS> Isn't the role of a sponsor to educate and enable, not to do the work?
<ScottK> It's a balance.
<ScottK> Make it too hard and they give up and go away.
<micahg> right
<ScottK> For the first upload, I don't care if their name in the changelog ends up being the only thing the didn't have to fix.
<SpamapS> I like the idea of taking everything they've done, even if its not in the right place or format, and getting it into the archive.
<SpamapS> I tend to draw the line at *creating* things like changelog entry or patch descriptions.
<broder> ah, yeah, i disagree with that
<micahg> right, usually we come back to over 100 after UDS
<broder> i think we should not require people to care about ubuntu processes to fix ubuntu bugs
<SpamapS> broder: agreed.. I will ask somebody "Can you describe the change?" or copy the change description from the bug description. I don't make them actually run 'dch' ;)
<broder> ah, sure
<SpamapS> Yes thats what I do.
<micahg> maybe a bot poking after 2 weeks of no activity?
<SpamapS> I don't think you lose something by taking it off the list and instruct the contributor "When you've resolved X, please re-subscribe sponsors" or "Please change it back to Needs Review"
<micahg> well, if the person no longer wishes to work on it, it can go back to triaged
<SpamapS> Though it would be nice if the *age* was not lost.
<micahg> not always true
<micahg> I'd suggest 1 hr increments for community people
<micahg> 1hr is enough to sponsor 2-4 debdiffs or 1-2 merge proposals
<micahg> right, this is for normal stuff :)
 * micahg has a bad habit of that as well :)
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<micahg> they close stuff other people leave open :)
<SpamapS> They're just better than us
<SpamapS> period
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<micahg> umm, whoever uploads is taking responsibility for the upload
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<micahg> depends on the bug I think
<micahg> slangasek: I'd say anythiing that breaks the archive is the responsibility of the uploader
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<bobweaver> I have new on the video stuff once the new ones are done if they get done :) The New Boston said that they will put it on there site . His python video have 288,000 hits and more on his other ones he said sure he would put them on his video tutorial collection
<bobweaver> s|new|news
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-grand-ballroom-a to: Currently no events are active in this room - http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-q/grand-ballroom-a/ - http://ubottu.com/uds-logs/%23ubuntu-uds-grand-ballroom-a.log
<micahg> please don't break th archive on Friday at EOD :)
<micahg> that's what the sponsorship queue is for, alternatively, ask the patch pilot in #ubuntu-devel
<micahg> some patch pilots manage to do patch review as well
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-grand-ballroom-a to: Track:  | Make Ubuntu fully proxy compatible | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-q/meeting/20711/full-proxy-support/ | Audio: http://icecast.ubuntu.com:8000/grand-ballroom-a.ogg.m3u
<mpt> I'm not able to listen to this session (listening to another one), but one difficulty is having proxy setups to test with
<mpt> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/software-center?field.searchtext=proxy has some examples
<mpt> Several of them are incomplete just because of difficulty in reproducing the problem
<cyphermox> mpt: we can take care of this, I guess
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