#edubuntu 2006-07-24
<Lord_Athur> hi
<crimsun> hi.
<bddebian> Heya Lord_Athur
<Lord_Athur> bye all
<HellDragon> bye
<HellDragon> hu
<HellDragon> hi*
<LaserJock> hi alucard :-)
<alucard> Hi!!!
<HellDragon> hi
<alucard> My wife is a Kinder teacher (Puerto Rico) and I'm looking an alternative cheaper and better tha MS Windows and softwares.
<alucard> I found ubuntu and I order the all collections including edubuntu.
<LaserJock> cool
<lecaros> alucard, welcome to edubuntu world :)
<alucard> Right now I'm using a laptop with Ubuntu.
<lecaros> nice
<alucard> What I really need is to know what teachers are doing with edubuntu in the class rooms.
<LaserJock> well, I think that would be a great question for the edubunt-users mailing list
<LaserJock> edubuntu-users rather
<LaserJock> as there are quite a few teachers using Edubuntu
<alucard> I few months ago I saw a website linked in the edubuntu Homepage that showed the projects and methods introduced by teachers in the class, but I can't find the link anymore.
<alucard> Ubuntu is the easiest Linux Distro ever.
<LaserJock> it's great for sure
<alucard> Is there a website with linux educational software for children????
<LaserJock> I think there is
<LaserJock> there is a page that has an overview of the apps installed in edubuntu by default
<LaserJock> I think there are a few Linux educational app pages out there, I just don't know of any off hand
<LaserJock> the edubuntu-users list should have lots more info
<alucard> I'm going to check it. Thank You!!!
<LaserJock> no problemo
<LaserJock> thanks for the interest
<alucard> I'm very pleased with Ubuntu. Thank You!!! Bye!
<lecaros> bye alucard
<ryan_naruto> my ubuntu doesnt recognize my usb stick when i plug it in... at first it did but when i ejected it and plugged it back in it cant detect it anymore what should i do...
<lecaros> ryan_naruto lsusb output?
<mhz> ryan_naruto: via LTSP (on the client) or the server?
<HellDragon> he
<mhz> is lulu.com the one to print EHB?
<mhz> LaserJock: ?
<LaserJock> well, I don't think that was decided yet
<LaserJock> but it certainly could be
<LaserJock> nothing preventing it
<mhz> LaserJock: ah, but when I read "Lulu", they are talkin gbaout it
<mhz> ?
<LaserJock> oh yeah
<mhz> LaserJock: thx
<HedgeMage> hi jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> hey
<HedgeMage> How are you?
<jsgotangco> rains here are so bad at the moment, my connection always drops
<jsgotangco> its been raining here for a week already
<HedgeMage> awww
<HedgeMage> better than the heat here, I bet.
<jsgotangco> we do have summers here (2 months ago) but we don't experience them higher than 40C
<HedgeMage> I have no idea how hot that is, I can't think in celsius
<HedgeMage> doesn't sound that hot, though.
<jsgotangco> celsius
<jsgotangco> yeah it can be a bit hot
<jsgotangco> but some parts of the globe like AU go beyond that
* HedgeMage nods
<jsgotangco> but then, i live just above the equator so its pretty normal for us
<LaserJock> 25C is around room temp ~75 F
<jsgotangco> so what's up
<marcel`> Good morning
<marcel`> Good morning
<marcel`> sorry typo
<RichEd> morning to all :)
<jsgotangco> hi
<RichEd> hi jsgotangco : how was the weekend ?
<jsgotangco> RichEd: pretty boring, its been raining for days here, with no sunlight whatsoever
<jsgotangco> just styaed at home
<RichEd> well we've had similar - rain, cold, mostly miserable, with a brief patch of sun. are you in winter or summer ? not sure which hemisphere you fall into ?
<jsgotangco> just above the equator, in south east asia
<RichEd> ah ... that would have been my guess ... just below thailand & to the left ?
<RichEd> being so close to the equator, do you get much winter / summer variation ? or just in rainfall pattern ?
<spacey> probably the latter:)
<jsgotangco> we only have 2 seasons
<jsgotangco> summer and rain
<jsgotangco> thailand is 4 hours away by plane
<jsgotangco> we're 1 1/2 hours away from hongkong
<RichEd> okay ... making more sense now ... will check out a map to pin down a location.
<RichEd> jsgotangco: i'm seinding a mail to Regina Lopez in a short while ... will CC you in
<jsgotangco> thanks but she's in NY and has no email access till the 7th
<RichEd> oky ... noted ...
<RichEd> ogra: ping
<RichEd> anyone here can offer basic info on OLPC background ?
<RichEd> bundled edubuntu applications <- is there a ready reference list somewhere ?
<jsgotangco> RichEd: as in what the project is all about?
<jsgotangco> RichEd: http://doc.ubuntu.com/edubuntu/school-advocacy/C/index.html
<RichEd> jsgotangco: as in we have a h/w mnf talkong about his own OLPC project ... i need to make sure my understanding is correct ... question follows
<jsgotangco> RichEd: the link is for your 2nd question btw
<RichEd> tx: just found the advocacy link myself ... tx.
<jsgotangco> ok
<RichEd> quick question (while rodarvus is not available) for OLPC ... is there a specific version of Edubuntu & Ubuntu to cope with the limited hardware spec, or is it a custom version per specific OLPC config. dsign.
<jsgotangco> nope there is none at the moment, that's why rodarvus has an OLPC board with him to check what we can do
<jsgotangco> its actually his job to make an OLPC compliant version of Ubuntu
* mode/#edubuntu [+o highvoltage]  by ChanServ
<RichEd> just to get my understanding 100% - i'm assuming that there is no generic OLPC hardware spec ? i.e. various manf. will come up with their own was of cutting cost (and hence their own funcky or trimmed down h/w components) ?
<RichEd> and hence there may be a custom version required for each manf. h/w config ? 
<RichEd> or is the ideal to have either:
<RichEd> 1) all OLPC manf. conforming to a (broad) standard
<RichEd> or 2) an Edubuntu / Ubuntu OLPC install that copes with OLPC variations
<jsgotangco> no its basically 1)
<jsgotangco> your contact might not be conforming to 1)
<jsgotangco> which is not surprising
<jsgotangco> have you seen the OLPC wiki?
<jsgotangco> http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Hardware_specification
* RichEd goes to swop up and fill in on some of his blank sports
<jsgotangco> http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Software
<RichEd> jsgotangco: i will point them to the same OLPC links and ask about this "your contact might not be conforming to 1)"
<jsgotangco> well they might have a different plan
<jsgotangco> to provide a cheap laptop
<jsgotangco> not necessarily an OLPC kind
<RichEd> well this is the official request, but the east to west english translation it ambiguous: You may know _xxx_ is OLPC ODM company. Except working with OLPC organization, _xxx_ is planning our own commercial model. 
<RichEd> and they are aiming at a mode for "richer students" @ $ 200
<jsgotangco> ahhh
<RichEd> best to ask for clarity ... keep it clear from the start. thanks ... i'll manage from here.
<jsgotangco> i think they want to sell it themselves
<jsgotangco> rather than having a government contract to distribute them
<ogra> RichEd, pong
<RichEd> hi ogra ... sorted out my query with some help from jsgotangco ... thanks. done.
<ogra> oki :)
<cbx33> there is still a large amount of spam coming through on edubuntu-devel
<cbx33> is there anything more we can do about this?
<ogra> there is spam getting throuhg ??
* ogra has never seen it getting through ... are you sure you dont mix it up with the admin mails ?
<jsgotangco> i dont receive it, its most likely the admin mails
<cbx33> Well, admin mails have a different header don;t they?
<ogra> yep
<jsgotangco> yes
<jsgotangco> if they don't appear in the archive, then only the admins are receiving it
<cbx33> These are coming through just like normal emails
<cbx33> right hang on
<cbx33> lemme check
<cbx33> ok
<cbx33> I'm stupid
<jsgotangco> i dont see any spam
<cbx33> ignore me
<jsgotangco> :D
<cbx33> ogra: I got rsyncer working
<ogra> damned ... i'll spend my whole day with that powermanager crap ...
<cbx33> can patch you later
* ogra sighs
<ogra> cbx33, great .... i'll check it if i find the time
<cbx33> that's fine
<cbx33> I may make a slight alteration for grasynco
<cbx33> the create function will need to be modified so it doesn't rsync
<ogra> currently i'm having a bad day de to gnome-power-manager shanged most of the core code and i have to rewrite 90% of the patches 
<cbx33> just sets up directories
<ogra> s/de/due/
<cbx33> yikes
<cbx33> sorry dude
<jsgotangco> yikes
<cbx33> I'd offer to help, but not sure I could do much could i?
<ogra> nah ...
<jsgotangco> hmm double yikes, i got application rejections already :D
<cbx33> applications for?
<jsgotangco> work heh
<cbx33> ah
<jsgotangco> i just smile when i rejected
<cbx33> those are all too familiar to me
<jsgotangco> heh one was Canonical
<cbx33> yup I got one of them too :p
<jsgotangco> lol welcome to the club
<cbx33> we'll go out for a virtual drink later :p
<cbx33> club members only :p
<jsgotangco> heh
<ogra> jsgotangco, for which one did you apply at canonical ?
<jsgotangco> hmm i dont remember lemme check
<cbx33> Hahaha
<cbx33> :p
<jsgotangco> im sure i submitted for 2 jobs
<jsgotangco> i still didnt get rejected on the other one so yeahhhh
<ogra> hehe 
* ogra crosses fingers
* cbx33 too
<jsgotangco> hehe i got rejected on community manager
<jsgotangco> anyways im not really a community leader of sorts
* ogra wonders if Seveas applied for that one ...
<jsgotangco> he can be good at it
<Seveas> ogra, I haven't -- not nearly enough experience
<jsgotangco> yeah that's one thing
<jsgotangco> ive had enough community experience i'd say but locally
<ogra> i dont think an external guy with much community experience would help if he has no *ubuntu* community experience ...
<jsgotangco> i dunno probably someone with organizational skills like mdke can fit the job
<ogra> well, i dont see mdke deeply involved in so many areas ...
<jsgotangco> we will just know when someone comes out and says he's the new guy heh
<ogra> you need to me active widespread in many areas ... the commuity is more than just the dcteam :)
<ogra> *doc
<ogra> s/me/be/
<cbx33> I'd love the community bazaar job :p
<ogra> jsgotangco, sure we will ... but it would be wrong to have an external guy who doesnt have 100% trus of the community ...
<cbx33> ogra: i agree
<ogra> (imho ... and i''m not canonical HR)
* cbx33 tries to glue the gaping hole in his right shoe sole
<ogra> btw, did everybody send feedback to AliasVegas ? 
<jsgotangco> well...
<spacey> feedback about what?
* spacey wonders what the daily work of a community manager consists of
<ogra> spacey, about artwork, like she ased for in the last meeting 
<ogra> *asked
<spacey> ah, i missed that. lots of family obligations. :/
<ogra> she asked for feedback about the current theme (what you dont like in dappers theme and why) and for suggestions for the edgy theme
<spacey> ah ok
<marcel`> Will there be a next edubuntu release in octobre?
<ogra> marcel`, sure
<marcel`> ogra: Great! are all the developers of Ebuntu in this channel?
<ogra> yup
<marcel`> Great work for this amount of people :)
<ogra> :)
<marcel`> I would like to help but im kinda new to linux so i think ill only screw things up
<RichEd> marcel`:  many people help in many ways ... from development to artwork !
<ogra> (over documentation :) )
<RichEd> if you are interested, send me a list of skills or voluntary effort you would be keen to put in and we will find you a welcome home
<marcel`> ogra: What do you mean?
<ogra> marcel`,  from development over documentation to artwork 
<marcel`> ogra: Ah oke
<RichEd> creata a PVT window to me if you want to chat further on this
<marcel`> PVT is PM?
<Petaris> marcel`: Yes
<Petaris> Hi ogra
<ogra> hey
* Petaris tries to figure out this ads_connect issue
<jsgotangco> im going to sleep
<jsgotangco> good night all
<marcel`> good night jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> nice weather to sleep too
<bddebian> Hello
<RichEd> hi
<RichEd> pretty quiet here now ... going out for 20 mins.
<Kamping_Kaiser> hi all, i was wondering if someone could confirm/fail to confirm a bug for me? its something i only seem to have had with edubuntu+swcanner
<Kamping_Kaiser> its bug 42775 fyi
<Kamping_Kaiser> and bug 42773 as well
<Kamping_Kaiser> (swscanner again)
<ogra> well, it should at least recommend kdesu ...
<Kamping_Kaiser> but surely it should use whats available - in this case gksu, not kdesu
<ogra> that would require a kind of intelligence in the .desktop file we dont have
<Kamping_Kaiser> shouldnt the install script take care of it in postinst?
<ogra> thats an issue you could discuss on the -devel mailing list ... there is no requirement for such a thing yet ...
<ogra> but if it uses kdesu it should in any case at least recommend kdesu ... thats indeed a bug
* Kamping_Kaiser has seen -devel "got spec? no? ah well.... LP is > that way"
<ogra> writing a spec without discussion isnt the right way :)
<ogra> just point out the bugs and ask if that wouldnt be better if we generated .desktop entrys in postinst based on availability of the needed admin tool
<ogra> if th erest of discussion leads anywhere you can spec it
<Kamping_Kaiser> sounds like a good idea - i'm just not sure i'm able to express stuff well enough to make a sane email :)
<Petaris>  Anyone remember a while back, Sun (I think) released a product that would take legacy apps and make them avaliable via a web interface?
<Petaris> I had it bookmarked but I must have lost it
<Petaris> It was /.ed at the time so I couldn't check it out
<marcel`> Does anyone here know where the icons for a default edubuntu is stored on the FS?
<Petaris> marcel`: Probably in /usr/share/pixmaps or /usr/share/icons
<marcel`> Petaris: thanks ill check it out right away
<Kamping_Kaiser> ogra, do you th8ink i should email devel? is it worth it basicly
<ogra> yes
<ogra> else i wouldnt have suggested it :)
<Kamping_Kaiser> heh :) i'll start a draft (note i should do it basicly), and do it wheni get home morning day after tomorrow
<Petaris> ahh, found it
<Petaris> Sun Secure Global Desktop Software 4.2
<marcel`> Aww man i cant find that great firefox icon anywhere.. sugestions?
<ogra> marcel`, the one from the gartoon iconset ? 
<ogra> look in /usr/shre/icons
<ogra> *share
<marcel`> Awsome i got it thanks
<marcel`> hm that weird i found the icons in /usr/share/icons/gartoon/scalable but if i want to select een icon for one of my launcher it just doesnt see them in the list
<Kamping_Kaiser> night all
<marcel`> GN Kamping_Kaiser 
<Kamping_Kaiser> :)
<mhz> hi all
<mhz> RichEd: got my email?
<RichEd> yep ... sure did ... i saw your question this morning, but you were gone already (sorry i was not ignoring you ... did not mark myeslf away for the weekend)
<RichEd> will send you a response before i close off for the day today ... within the next 2 hours
<mhz> RichEd: heheh, do not worry, I would find it difficult to believe someone committed to this channel and project would ever ignore other person with no reason at all ;)
<RichEd> well there is also "committed" as in "committed to a insane asylum" so you can never be to sure ;)
<RichEd> too <- to
<mhz> hehehe
<mhz> yeah
<mhz> god point
<mhz> RichEd: and BTW, I did try my best to sum up that email. Sorry if it still got too long. And if there are some missing details, well, it was the summing up fault
<mhz> :)
<RichEd> mhz: no problem ... enough to get me started on a conversation with you. expect an acknowledgement from me today, and a some suggestions over the next few days.
<mhz> cool
* mhz_off BRB
<Petaris> Anyone know of a program for linux (or a web based program) that is akin to Read Naturally (http://www.readnaturally.com)
<cberlo> Hi folks.  I'm back at configuring my shiny new LTSP server...  I'm looking for pointers on getting printing set up so that I can assign individual printers per user.  I.E. I want user1 to map to printer1, user2 to map to printer2, user3 to map back to printer1, etc.
<cberlo> I have all of my users authenticating through winbind and have them in unique groups.  I'm planning to map the printers based on which group they're in.  Is this feasible with Edubuntu LTSP at the moment?
<cberlo> ogra:  How's progress on LTSP coming along?  I've been reading enough today my eyes are already bugging out, and I've just come back from vacation....  
<hlabs> can edubuntu be setup as a kiosk
<mhz> re
<mhz> hlabs: sorry, but what do you mean by 'kiosk' ?
<ogra> hlabs, sure, install sabayon and create profiles ...
<hlabs> A small, self-standing structure such as a newstand or ticket booth. Unattended multimedia kiosks dispense public information via computer screens. Either a keyboard, touch screen or both are used for input
<hlabs> that was the definition
<hlabs> thanks ogra i will try out sabayon
<ogra> cberlo, what direction do you mean? the merge with upstream or the development of edgy specs ? 
<mhz> ogra: thx, I was kind of lost there as I have not been able to run sbayaon on this old pc's ;)
<cberlo> ogra: mostly, development in general.  Things like local devices, printing, etc.
<ogra> local devices are specced very well, i'll start implementing them mid of first week in august ...
<cberlo> Been trying to enable as many features as possible, and I keep running into lack of documentation or non-implemented features
<mhz> hlabs: please let me know if sabayon works for you and if it is what you needed. My guess is that there will be more people with similar questions
<ogra> printing is included in dapper already but buggy, thats rather bughunting than developing :)
<hlabs> well. You see im new to this linux OS.
<cberlo> ogra: Is there an implemented way to automatically switch default printers on the thin client based on who logs in?
<hlabs> there is a lot of difference here. in XP you can setup a Webpage as a your desktop
<hlabs> but in ubuntu you can't do that
<ogra> cberlo, nope
<cberlo> ogra: Thanks for the straightforward answer.  :)
<ogra> :)
<mhz> ogra: as most of edubuntu apps are not specific to edubuntu, if volunteers wanted to translate apps (shipped by edubuntu), they'd do it via Rosetta and look up ubuntu apps?
<ogra> but thats something we could implement in edgy+1 if you write a nice spec  ;)
<ogra> mhz, yup
<cberlo> How long until edgy+1?
<ogra> development starts in october
<Petaris> Its sad that so many of the comercial educational softwares have no viable linux or truly web based alternatives
<ogra> (edgy releases in oct)
<ogra> Petaris, we'll just write better ones ;)
<cberlo> I really want to use Edubuntu for this project, but more and more it's looking like I'm going to have to switch to the "main" K12 LTSP stuff to get things up for September...
<ogra> it will solve itself over time
<mhz> hlabs: well, true, Linux comes from a different world, therefore different approach. However, during last 5 years, there has been lots of work towards desktop and end-user
<Petaris> ogra: You have to find people who can, and have the drive to, or be able to hire someone(s) to do it
<Petaris> And then some of these apps have to have certifications from the government (at least in the US)
<hlabs> mhz you missed my point. See if you use XP you can setup a webpage to be your active desktop. So technically it would then become a multimedia kio
<ogra> cberlo, k12 switchs printers on clients based on the user logged in ?
<hlabs> *kiosk
<mhz> hlabs: oh, yup
<Petaris> It would be cool if there was a central location to list comercial apps that need good OSS alternatives
<mhz> hlabs: so you can do it in OSX
<ogra> hlabs, you can install the epiphany browser, set it with sabayon or pessulus to operate in fullscreen and have the same ...
<cberlo> ogra: Not that I'm aware of, but it does have the local device access stuff working, and a VNCReflector setup that allows my teachers to "peek in" on students...
<mhz> hlabs: maybe there is a way to do it like that in linux too, but I do not know.
<ogra> cberlo, both planned features for edgy ...
<hlabs> yeah i will surely try that approach
<cberlo> Okay, I'll persevere.  And see if I can script the printer stuff....
<cberlo> ogra: how should I go about writing a spec for edgy+1 for printer scripting per user?
<ogra> cberlo, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ThinClientLocalDevices, https://wiki.edubuntu.org/StudentControlPanelCompletion
<hlabs> say by the way you folks won't happen to how to setup edubuntu or ubuntu to become usefull in a cyber cafe enviroment
<mhz> hlabs: does kiosk also means other users can use your computer resources and apps. remotely, defining which user can do this or that?
<cberlo> hlabs: there are howtos on that kind of thing on the net -- I looked into it before, but not with Ubuntu.
<mhz> hlabs: Edubuntu is aimed towards computer labs, for edu purposes
<mhz> hlabs: and that goal is achieved
<hlabs> well to be honest. I tried to use edubuntu. Hoping that it would become a terminal server etv. Buts  its not working out
<mhz> hlabs: kiosk mode is something I am not familiar with so far.
<cberlo> ogra: Does Edubuntu's CUPS implementation include the LPDEST variable anywhere?
<mhz> hlabs: what issues did you get?
<ogra> cberlo, no need to ask me here, i'm in #ltsp ... and i dont know :)
<hlabs> well kiosk is just a fancy way of saying that the pc is in lockdown and users cant change anything. And that they have access to stuff setup by the admin
<cberlo> haha.  Sorry 'bout that -- didn't see you over there.
<mhz> hlabs: linux does that in many ways, by default. Sabayon is the app to create diff. profile
<mhz> hlabs: and you can also do that without sabayon even
<hlabs> my issue was that i followed all the instructions to setup edubuntu alas. When i connected to it via an Hp e-pc it would not work
<hlabs> yeah but here is the dumb part of the process. The admin has to kick or boot the user at the end of their sessions
<mhz> hlabs: if you have SomeGroup, and users in that group, and you define which apps or access these users will have, no matter which way you boot up (LTSP or locally), users will be forced to play by the rules defined by you.
<hlabs> well how can i do that 
<cberlo> I'll see if I can submit a spec on that printing thing.  Looks like you guys are already on it, so if I can come up with anything, I'll let you know.
<mhz> hlabs: re Edubuntu issue/ we'd need a little bit of more info so we can understand what went wrong for you when trying Edubuntu
<cberlo> ogra: Thanks again.  I'll continue to work on my Edubuntu install here.  Hopefully it'll be "good enough" for September (per my supervisor).
<mhz> hlabs: you could try sabayon
<mhz> hlabs: and there are some caybercafes settings via Linux, I am sure. Edubuntu could work there beatifully. And if you need a way to charge users per hour, yeah, there are some apps that run even via web
<hlabs> well i got the billing part done right. I even manged to build a voip platform for the     cafe its just that i loaded up edu. and all was set . It was not showing any problems. Then i tried my terminal pc to connect to it. And bamm it could not find the dhcp from the edu servver
<mhz> hlabs: Edubuntu server is a machine that provides apps and hardware resources to run those apps from 'thin-clients' or less powerfull machines that only have little RAM but not enough processor.
<mhz> hlabs: then, you should check two things at least  a) is the client network card able to boot via net   b) is the dhcp config set correctly
<hlabs> well the client is able to boot via the network. And the dhcp settings are the same as that of the screenshhot
<mhz> hlabs: yeah, but your dhcp settings must be according to your own network settings
<mhz> hlabs: could you paste.bin your network settings and your dhcp ones?
<hlabs> well my setup is kinda based on dynamic settings. See there is the modem then the router then the edu server. From there its all going to the switch that distributes it all to the thin clients
<mhz> hlabs: good, that sounds correct
<hlabs> but then the miserable thin client does not locate dhcp. I took the same machine to a buddy of mines netowrk and it works there                       
<mhz> hlabs: the modem (ISP) provides dynamic IP to your router, and the router provides local IP to the edu server only?
<hlabs> yeah the router provides dynamic ip to the edu server
<mhz> router = usually provides dhcp  |   eduserver = always provides dhcp
<mhz> hlabs: so, if 2 machines provide dhcp... most likely there will be conflict
<mhz> (obv. i mean in same network)
<hlabs> so what should i do
<hlabs> then
<mhz> hlabs: first, I'd suggest you try disconnectin the eduserver from router
<mhz> so, leave only this: Eduserver -> swithc -> client
<mhz> if client boot, it was router conflict
<mhz> :)
<mhz> typos!
<mhz> sorry
<hlabs> hey that sounds like a very good idea.
<mhz> hlabs: and I now must leave, else I am gonna be told off
<hlabs> but how would i connect my hotspot . It has to have access to the internet                  
<mhz> hlabs: good luck
<hlabs> ok thanks for everything
<ogra> you cant run two dhcp servers in ne net at the same time if you need to boot from one of them ... i'd suggest getting a second network card
<hlabs> i will try your suggestion out
<mhz> hlabs: i am sure others here will jump in and help too
<ogra> (and setting up a second network as well fro the clients)
<mhz> ogra: yup +1
<ogra> edubuntu will default to a two NIC setup from edgy on as well ... to avoid this problem one and for all
<hlabs> well thats just dandy
<LaserJock> ogra: hmm, I got a reply back from the sabayon dev
<LaserJock> Most of the developers of sabayon have all their time filled up with
<LaserJock> working on other modules, so its not very actively maintained. However,
<LaserJock> its not dead or anything. We very much would like it to get better.
<ogra> yay
<LaserJock> that's a quote ^^
<ogra> sounds like "patces accepted" :P
<bddebian> LaserJock: Yeah, so get to work ;-P
<ogra> he could have expressed it shorter ;)
<bddebian> ogra: I'm checking on hula, do you mind?
<ogra> me ?
<ogra> why should i ?
<bddebian> You where the last one to upload to Ubuntu
* ogra hasnt seen hula since hoary
<ogra> really ? 
<LaserJock> ogra: he also said "Merging profiles sounds quite hard. It might be possible for the gconf
<LaserJock> stuff, but for the copy-a-file backends its not obvious how it would
<LaserJock> work."
<ogra> my mind must be really bad then 
<bddebian> Yep, apparently it hasn't been thrown up since hoary ;-)
<LaserJock> hehe
<ogra> bddebian, go ahead then :)
<bddebian> Thx
<bddebian> Fruck, lost my ssh connection :-(
<rodarvus> bddebian: note that current hula from svn is not really useful
<rodarvus> (or is not supposed to be)
<bddebian> rodarvus: ?
<rodarvus> its in a state of flux
<bddebian> So I shouldn't sync with Debian?
<ogra> test it :P
<ogra> should be fine to drop my (in fact herzis) package completely and use the debian one
<ogra> the hoary version was the very first release they ever made ... anything should be better than that
<ogra> i think it was even a prerelease
<Amaranth> aww, rejected
<bddebian> ogra: OK, thx
<ogra> Amaranth, yeah, two issues ...
<Amaranth> yeah
<Amaranth> i might as well do all of the other stuff too while i'm at it though
<ogra> as you like :)
<ogra> btw, the .desktop file should have Categories=GNOME;Application;Settings;System; and X-KDE-SubstituteUID=true
<ogra> so it shows only in sudoers menus and is in the system settings ... 
<Amaranth> looks like i have to start working on this in edgy
<ogra> well, "packaging" is even included in the project name :) 
<LaserJock> I think my conclusion is that sabayon just isn't going to work for dynamic-menus, unless I can find a way around needing to merge profiles.
<LaserJock> sabayon just includes too much data
<ogra> so whats the solution ?
<LaserJock> is it possible, as Amaranth has suggested, to be able to set XDG_DATA_DIR for the users?
<ogra> addimg a profile editor as add-on to alacarte ? (i.e. writing a small standalone pygtk gui and add a button to alacarte)
<Amaranth> you'd need some sort of login hook to set it
<ogra> Xsession.d
<LaserJock> I'm trying to avoid the seb problem, but I'm not sure what all that intails
<LaserJock> we just can't touch gnome-menus like what was done for sudo, correct?
<Amaranth> ?
<Amaranth> ogra: you also have to generate .menu files for all the groups on the system
<ogra> if you can do it by XDG_DATA_DIR and we add a Xsession.d script, that should work, no ?
<Amaranth> ogra: then teach alacarte how to edit "root" menus and you're set (mostly)
<Amaranth> afaik unless you actually edit the content of a menu item alacarte doesn't touch it anymore (it uses .menu files for hiding and moving) so that should be ok
<Amaranth> the main catch is generating the .menu files for every group
<LaserJock> well, we planed on shipping predifined .menu files for the groups we wanted
<Amaranth> the .menus files wouldn't have to do much, just merge in the /etc/xdg/menus/ .menu files
<Amaranth> that works then
<LaserJock> I mean sabayon would be ok if we could just pick out the menu stuff
<LaserJock> but there is nothing stoping the admin from putting firefox stuff in the profile for instance
<LaserJock> and then you might have a problem
<Amaranth> now you either need a way to set XDG_DATA_DIRS before launching alacarte or a sudo user that's in each group
<Petaris> ogra: Is there anyone besides ajmitch that is working on the AD integration?
<LaserJock> Petaris: ajmitch has been around the last few day, he's just not up yet
<Amaranth> a separate GUI that just launches "XDG_DATA_DIRS=/foo alacarte --root" would work (said GUI is already launched with gksudo)
<LaserJock> right
<LaserJock> that's what I was thinking
<ogra> why a separate gui ? thats even only a separate .desktop entry
<Amaranth> GNOME is about to be in feature freeze so I'd have to include the root mode as a patch in the package
<Petaris> LaserJock: When does he usually pop in?
<Amaranth> ogra: a separate .desktop file for every group?
<ogra> no, only one .desktop file for the above command
<ogra> gksudo 'XDG_DATA_DIRS=/foo alacarte --root'
<Amaranth> ogra: you have to set XDG_DATA_DIRS to something different for every group
<LaserJock> Petaris: hmm, not quite sure. He is in New Zealand so it might be a few more hours. You could always try emailing him
<ogra> ah
<ogra> ok
<ogra> right, but that would be a failrly simple gui ...
<Amaranth> indeed
<LaserJock> although, we still need to handle a user belonging to more than one group
<Amaranth> just a list of groups and a button to launch alacarte for the selected group
<Amaranth> LaserJock: -ESEP
<Amaranth> Somebody Else's Problem :)
<LaserJock> aka, me :-)
<Amaranth> LaserJock: there is no sane method of handling that
<Amaranth> there might be any possible method of handling that
<ogra> whats the problem ? as far as i understood it, xdg is capable of reading from different sources
<LaserJock> Aaron was talking about that overlay thing
<ogra> you just need to create a merged menu file ...
<Amaranth> the problem with putting things in applications-merged/ is that they load in random order
<Amaranth> and alacarte will still only edit one .menu file
<LaserJock> ok, so what if we had a simple gui that had the groups and the alacarte button and then merged the menus some way and put them in the ~/ of all the users
<LaserJock> we only need this thing to set up the menu once in a while
<LaserJock> it wouldn't neccessarily need to be at every login
<Amaranth> so you edit a group's .menu file with alacarte, click another button in this GUI, and it shoves .menu files in every user's ~/.config/menus/?
<LaserJock> yeah
<LaserJock> like an "Apply" button or something
<Amaranth> i suppose that could work
<Amaranth> but the merging would be a PITA
<Amaranth> doable, but not just a simple merge, you have to keep track of <Move>s and crap
<Amaranth> well, it might be doable
<LaserJock> well, it wouldn't be a problem I don't think for most of our stuff
<Amaranth> but you're letting admins do whatever they want to these menus
<LaserJock> we mostly want the absence or presence of items
<LaserJock> true
<Amaranth> if for one group they move Games into a submenu and for another group they add a couple of things to Games merging the two gets tricky
<Amaranth> you have to make sure the move happens after the adding
<LaserJock> arg
<LaserJock> well the simpilest thing I can think of is shipping predefined .menu files that aren't editable
<LaserJock> but that doesn't seem very nice
<Amaranth> yeah
<Amaranth> in my example you can do some fun stuff to put the move at the end
<Amaranth> but i can quickly give you an example that is undoable without manual help
<Amaranth> For one group they move System Tools into Administration and for another group they move it into Preferences how do you handle that?
<Amaranth> that should be two sentences :)
<LaserJock> well, it would be nice to make an assumption or two about what kind of editing we need
<LaserJock> and be able to limit to those
<Amaranth> LaserJock: i don't think i want to hack up alacarte that badly
<LaserJock> I agree
<LaserJock> Amaranth: will Edgy's alacarte have --root support?
<Amaranth> if it's needed i can add it
<ogra> thats totally enough for now ... no weird hacking please :)
<LaserJock> yes
<cbx33> evenin guys
<LaserJock> hi cbx33 
<cbx33> hey LaserJock 
<ogra> what about pointing the user menus to a system dir that contains .menu files that are only readable by a certain group ... 
<ogra> we could solve it on a filesystem level 
<ogra> no idea how xdg behaves with such a case though
<LaserJock> hmm, I don't know either
<ogra> i mean you have a directory full of .menu files but each is only readable by its group and editable by root
<LaserJock> again, what about a user belonging to multiple groups? how does xdg handle that?
<ogra> i guess you end up with doubled menu entries (but thats only a guess)
<LaserJock> it seems like merge work would have to be done at some point
<crimsun> it sounds like there needs to be a bit more logic at a higher level
<crimsun> the fs level sounds fine; you're just pushing the complexity up one layer
<LaserJock> hmm, can I get that in english?
<crimsun> erm. Ok, say you go the route that ogra proposed; to avoid duplicate entries you'll need to filter, which pushes the complexity into the menu app
<LaserJock> right
<LaserJock> so we have 1) use fs level and filter out duplicates (not sure what that would invlove) or 2) create tool to merge menus and put in user's ~/
<RichEd> hi guys ... 
<LaserJock> hi RichEd 
<RichEd> hi LaserJock 
<RichEd> LaserJock: how's your knowledge of networking under Linux ?
<RichEd> went off to gym and went out of range of the Wireless Hub ... and now that I am back home ... it won't recover
<RichEd> not sure how to restart the interface on Edubuntu so that it searches for the signal ?
<LaserJock> my knowledge of networking under anything is pretty bad. I know enough to be able to setup a home network and that's about it
<crimsun> RichEd: ifdown $iface && ifup $iface
<crimsun> e.g., sudo ifdown eth1 && sudo ifup eth1
<crimsun> (where $iface is your network interface as listed in ``ifconfig -a'')
<RichEd> thanks crimsun ... was looking for just that ... unload & reload it no ?
* RichEd swivels chair from XP to Ub - brb
<crimsun> reloading the kernel driver is probably overkill in this case
<RichEd> oops ... ive dug a deeper hole for myself than I thought ... i fiddled with the ethernet settings, and it told me i changed the host name amd won't be able to start any apps until i reboot ...
<RichEd> so can't start a terminal :(
<RichEd> looks like reboot is my only option ?
<LaserJock> can you change the hostname back?
<RichEd> i didn't really change th host name, just swopped locations ... did not do any actual edit of any host entry
<LaserJock> hmm
<Petaris> RichEd: You could restart networking
<Petaris> maybe
<Petaris> not sure if hostname is handled by that or not
<RichEd> (had this situation before ... bit didn't have eleventy seven windows open ... so am being lazy about noting what is open where and rebooting back to whare I was)
<RichEd> where <- whare
<RichEd> Petaris: how would i restart netrworking without a terminal prompt ?
<Petaris> RichEd: Why don't you have a terminal prompt?
<Petaris> oh, the hostname
<RichEd> yep ...
<Petaris> hrm, I did that before
<Petaris> ummm
<Petaris> yep, you need to reboot
<crimsun> no, that shouldn't be necessary
<Petaris> and maybe even go into repair mode if you buggered the system like I had done
<crimsun> in the /worst/ case you'll have to switch to a tty (ctrl+alt+F1), log in, then ``sudo invoke-rc.d networking restart''
<crimsun> (unless of course it's sudo that's complaining about the hostname)
* RichEd tinkers with the suggestion
<Petaris> crimsun: When I did it, it was sudo that was complaining
<crimsun> Petaris: yeah, that's a pain.
<RichEd> getting somewhere ... right to the friendly message Ubuntu conmes with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY, to the extent permitted by applicable law ;)
<crimsun> it's the next part that may be problematic
<crimsun> ``sudo invoke-rc.d networking restart''   that is
<RichEd> * reconfiguring etc. ... cursor flash flash flash
<Petaris> crimsun: That episode just re-comfirmed my opinion that it is always wise to enable the root account
<crimsun> Petaris: sure, it's your computer, do what you want
<RichEd> right got an OK
<LaserJock> \o/
<RichEd> now how do i get back to the pretty GUI ?
<crimsun> alt+F7
<RichEd> ah ... still no signal ...
<RichEd> don't want to waste your time with my knickers in my own knot so to speak ...
<crimsun> you may have to log out and back into gnome
<RichEd> and it is getting late for me (the wife is calling) ...
<crimsun> oh yeah, forget the computer stuff
<crimsun> people++
<LaserJock> heh
<RichEd> so perhaps a tidy up & reboot would hurt less than a domestic episoide ;)
<LaserJock> gosh, I wish it was that easy for me
<LaserJock> ;-)
<RichEd> (have you seen JaneW when she is angry ;)
<LaserJock> heh, no
<RichEd> (or neglected ... even worse ;)
<LaserJock> I've seen *my* wife though
<LaserJock> not a good thing
* RichEd waves g'night ...
<crimsun> cya
<LaserJock> when she gives you that "Ist me or the computer" stare
<LaserJock> cya RichEd 
* RichEd averts eye contact with LaserJocks wife ... dinnae  wannae turn into no pillar of haggis 'n all
<RichEd> thanks crimsum ... learnt a little bit ...
<LaserJock> hehe
<RichEd> bye
<Amaranth> ogra: i've got the stuff to create a willowng user, does start-stop-daemon automagically handle the rest? cupsys doesn't seem to do anything special to run with it's own user
<Petaris> Hi highvoltage
<mhz> highvoltage: ping
<HellDragon> hi
<bddebian> Hello HellDragon
<hazemmohamed> Hello every body, I have a problem with my screen resolution?
<hazemmohamed> it is stick on 1280*1024 and it is not comfortable
<hazemmohamed> I tried to change it from prefrences with no effect
<hazemmohamed> I want it 1024*786
<hazemmohamed> does any one can help?
<hazemmohamed> I'm using edubuntu Dapper
<Lord_Athur> hi all, which firewall do you recommend me?
<mhz> Lord_Athur: iptables ?
<Lord_Athur> pardon my ignorance mhz, what's iptables?
<mhz> firewall
<mhz> :)
<Lord_Athur> yes, I want a firewall.
<pygi> mhz, rather suggest him some interface to configure it?
<mhz> pygi: oh, good point
<mhz> Lord_Athur: iptables is a firewall way
<Lord_Athur> ok mhz, so, what can i do with it in order to make it work as a firewall?
<Lord_Athur> can I install it?
<pygi> mhz, suggest graphical application :) Or should I do it? :P
<pygi> Lord_Athur, it's there already, just not active
<dan_young> Lord_Athur: are you trying to seucre a single machine or a network?
<dan_young> *secure
<Lord_Athur> my own and single pc
* pygi says go with Firestarter
<Lord_Athur> hahaha, pygi I've just uninstalled firestarter :(
<pygi> Lord_Athur, what's wrong with it?
<Lord_Athur> I'd like to try another one...
<pygi> you could go with shorewall or write IPTABLES rules by yourself even, but I don't think that's a way to go for you
<pygi> but who am I to know anything :P
<Lord_Athur> hahaha, ok,
<Lord_Athur> haha, ok, now I'm trying ipcongfu
<mhz> re
* mhz was on the phone, sorry Lord_Athur 
<Lord_Athur> don't worry,
* pygi wonders why is Lord_Athur laughing all the time no reason
<dan_young> Lord_Athur: take a look at gnome-lokkit too...
<dan_young> http://packages.ubuntu.com/dapper/gnome/gnome-lokkit
<Lord_Athur> ok, 
<Lord_Athur> what about SELinux?
<dan_young> Lord_Athur: not a firewall
<Lord_Athur> :)
<dan_young> urk, looking close at gnome-lokkit, it's pretty outdated, w/ GTK1... bad recommendation, sorry.
<pygi> Lord_Athur, may I advise that you use other general channels for your questions?
<Lord_Athur> Yes, you may
<pygi> I may even point you to some books/web resources if you want to read up on things :)
<Lord_Athur> pygi, who am I to know what you may/may not do :P
<Lord_Athur> thanks all
<Lord_Athur> anyway GuardDog seems to be a good option if sb want to know :P
<Lord_Athur> see u later
<pygi> Lord_Athur, that's KDE...Edubuntu is Gnome...but anyway, your question was general as you don't use neither Linux or Edubuntu
<HellDragon> hi
<mhz> hi HellDragon 
#edubuntu 2006-07-25
<HellDragon> erf
<hlabs> hey guys is there any software similar to limewire in edubuntu
<LaserJock> hlabs: I'm sure there is, I just don't know of any off hand, I've never used limewire type apps
<LaserJock> hlabs: I'd suggest asking #ubuntu
<hlabs> yeah thats a good idea
<mhz> hlabs: basically, all software in edubuntu is part of ubuntu universes
<hlabs> yeah i used frostwire but the darn thing does not work on my ubuntu
<hlabs> is ther any other p2p software like lime wire
<mhz> hlabs: no idea, i dont use them ,sorry
<mhz> only ssh
<mhz> :D
<hlabs> well does any one download music of the net man
<LaserJock> nope
<mhz> hlabs: maybe in #ubuntu?
<mhz> hlabs: at least IMHO, as a teacher I can't encourage P2P (for ilegal stuff) among students
<hlabs> i know. Just wanted to know if it was possible. Well no worries i still have 3 months access to itunes
<mhz> heheheh
<mhz> it is possible, sure
<mhz> Many have done it
<HellDragon> heh
<hlabs> hey is there any way that you can logoff a user from their session
<pygi> hlabs, student control panel?
<mhz_work> pygi: as kiosk?
<hlabs> and this will only work with terminal service or any other method as well                 
<pygi> mhz_work, hm?
<pygi> hlabs, I assumed you are talking edubuntu server/client
<mhz_work> ohh, i had missed last line
<mhz_work> sorry
* mhz_work BB in 2 hours tops
<hlabs> ok its workable on the Serv/Client Great
<HellDragon> heh
<bddebian> Heya
<HellDragon> hey
<mhz_work> re
<jsgotangco> hey
<mhz> hey jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> mhz!
<bddebian> Heya jsgotangco
<jsgotangco> hey
<mhz> jsgotangco: OT/ you do have a Zaurus SL-5500, don't you?
<jsgotangco> yes somewhere
<jsgotangco> lol
* mhz slaps jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> its somewhere at home for sure
<mhz> c'mon, those are precious little great toys
<jsgotangco> sure
<jsgotangco> if they're useful
<mhz> jsgotangco: and do you remember which ROM you had it with?
<jsgotangco> my cellphone is more useful than that
<jsgotangco> i only use OZ
<jsgotangco> since i used to be part of the project
<mhz> okis, that is Opie Desktop
<jsgotangco> yeah
* mhz is so glad to meet people from embedded development
<mhz> jsgotangco: the thing is that opie desktop roms seems to suck the crappy battery power very quickly
<jsgotangco> i thought it was from the kernel instead of the desktop?
<mhz> and Sharp ROMs are not for me, but battery lasts longer
<mhz> opie desktop based roms
<mhz> jsgotangco: anyways, besides that battery issue, my current prob. is that older sharp ROM had Addressbook,xml
<mhz> .
<mhz> current Sharp ROM does not have any addressbook file
<mhz> or one I can find
<jsgotangco> yes
<mhz> so, jsgotangco have you ever synced the Z with Linux (via any GUI app)?
<jsgotangco> I did that before in the early development of KitchenSync
* mhz needs to get those 500 entries 
<jsgotangco> but if i still have my old stuff i cannot say
<mhz> lol
<mhz> okis
<mhz> jsgotangco: and you still have friends in that OZ team? friends I can contact quickly? (faster than idling on #channel waiting for someone who actually knows what I need)
<jsgotangco> i cannot say
<mhz> ok
* mhz stops the OT then
<jsgotangco> the one i knew who started the project moved to TI years ago
<mhz> jsgotangco: one last OT question (/me takes adavantage knowing jsgotangco's geographic zone)...
<jsgotangco> sure
<mhz> 10 or 11 inches laptops, with at least 9 GB of HD, 512 MB of RAM, 1 RJ45, 1 PCMCIA, 1 USB, bootable from external CD drive (at least)... U$150... Are they manufactured near your area (close country?)
<jsgotangco> yes
<jsgotangco> some of them don't use internal batteries
<mhz> jsgotangco: nice!!!
<jsgotangco> i dont use them
<jsgotangco> heh
<mhz> jsgotangco: any hints where I can start looking up?
<jsgotangco> let me check
* mhz googled but only got Chineese and India and google just sucked at translation
<mhz> jsgotangco: still there?
* Yagisan waves hello
<LaserJock> hi Yagisan 
<HellDragon> hi
<Yagisan> I got <sarcasim> good news </sarcasim> today. My adsl plan is discontinued - and I may be disconnected at anytime between now and the 30th
<Yagisan> usn't that wonderful :(
<LaserJock> that stinks
<Yagisan> yes I thought so too. Telstra inscreased DSLAM costs, so my ISP went - we won't make any money on this plan anymore - lets tell the customer to pay more or turf him :(
<mhz> eeek! Jeff Elkner on video!
<mhz> IIntriducingPython.mpg :D
<Yagisan> mhz, no!!! - I already have eye issues
<mhz> Yagisan: hehehe
<mhz> but it is a nice video indeed
<Yagisan> mhz, actually - seriously - I see red spots that don't exist o_O
<mhz> starring Eric Raymonf too
<mhz> Yagisan: ooooh, communist eyes?
* HedgeMage peeks in
<HedgeMage> Hi guys :)
<mhz> Yagisan: the only way I can fight physical probs. is via sports
<mhz> HedgeMage: hi girl
<Yagisan> mhz, no. floating bright red spots. The specalists will take $150 of me tommorow to say "I don't know why you see those spots"
<mhz> Yagisan: stress !
<lecaros> may be the drug...
<mhz> no need to spend that
<mhz> lecaros: :D
<mhz> lol
<mhz> that too
<HellDragon> heh
<lecaros> Yagisan, what about your heart?
* HedgeMage smooches mhz 
<Yagisan> lecaros, I have kids, I can't afford drugs
<HedgeMage> How's it going?
<Yagisan> lecaros, heart seems fine.
<lecaros> Yagisan, just kidding :)
* mhz thought he'd get kisses from HedgeMage for the "girl" thing
<HedgeMage> lol
<lecaros> hummm, do you use glasses?
<Yagisan> lecaros, nope. I have 20/15 vision :)
<mhz> Yagisan: stress
<lecaros> yup, may be stress
<HedgeMage> Yagisan: Is there something around you might be allergic to or chemically intolerant toward?
<mhz> Yagisan: I used to see red spots when I was stressed
<Yagisan> mhz, maybe. It got worse (12 spits now) up from 3 for the last 12 years
<jsgotangco> yes! people!
<lecaros> try walking around... around 3 hours :)
* jsgotangco hides
<mhz> jsgotangco: i am still waiting for your "let me check"
<HedgeMage> A chemically-caused migraine (as opposed to the less severe ones normally brought on by stress) often show red spots along with light nausea as early symptoms, even if you never get to the headache part.
<Yagisan> HedgeMage, can't say. I've been in 2 different states with the same issue. It just got worse lately - more then just mildly annoying
* mhz pokes jsgotangco a little bit
<jsgotangco> mhz: errmm??
* jsgotangco scrollsback
* HedgeMage smooches Yagisan and wishes him the best
<mhz> Yagisan: please DO not go to the same hospital your wife was in
<HedgeMage> good luck with the eye doctor.
<Yagisan> thanks HedgeMage
<mhz> Yagisan: my bet is still stress or blood presure
<Yagisan> mhz, I made sure of that. I'm going toone next to parliment house
<mhz> if i were you i'd try Yoga
<Yagisan> mhz, 12 years is a lot of stress
<Yagisan> mhz, I prefer Doom :)
* Yagisan counts 8 spots today
<mhz> Yagisan: not necesarily... many people -my mom, for instance- suffered from a pain for about 10 years. Shre tried relaxing excercises..no more pain.
<Amaranth> this sucks
<Amaranth> computer is t3h broken
<lecaros> bye guys
<Amaranth> windows did funny things to my partition table and i broke things trying to fix it
<lecaros> have a good nite
<mhz> lecaros: not good
<lecaros> mhz, why?
<Amaranth> i have my /etc/environment half in my /etc/fstab and half the files in ~/.xchat2 are gone
<Amaranth> willowng looks fine though
<Yagisan> lecaros, mhz made a typo
<Yagisan> lecaros, good night
<Amaranth> which is good because i haven't pushed the latest version :)
<lecaros> mhz, i have a meeting in 8:30 hours..
<mhz> eek
<mhz> nn, then
<lecaros> see you!
<mhz> c ya
<mhz> jsgotangco: <mhz> jsgotangco: any hints where I can start looking up?
<mhz> <jsgotangco> let me check
<lecaros> Yagisan, visit a different doctor
<lecaros> and have a nice week
<mhz> Yagisan: a yoga session will be much cheaper than 150
<mhz> wha tif they do help yo?
* mhz is typing one handed. sorry
<lecaros> mhz, ... i won't ask about other hand :p
<Yagisan> mhz, ah, but what if there is a physical defect ??
<mhz> lecaros: ! you latino man!
<lecaros> mhz, of course
<mhz> Yagisan: true... but many Yoga places give one or 2 sessions for free
<mhz> free as in free of charge :D
<Amaranth> ok, essentials moved to backup, time to wipe the drive
<Amaranth> back in 40 minutes or so
<pygi> morning mhz 
<mhz> pygi: hi.. i'm almost sleeping
<mhz> has anyone seen jeff elkner around here?
* mhz wonders why he's not around anymore (at least mhz has not seen him since... eeek, too long)
<pygi> mhz, nick?
<mhz> jelkner
<mhz> afaik
<mhz> nah, pygi /whois does not find him
<pygi> maybe he's asleep? :P
<Yagisan> !seen jelkner
<ubotu> I last saw jelkner (n=jelkner@158.59.225.142) 3d 13h 37m 14s ago, quiting: "Ex-Chat"
<Yagisan> mhz, ^^
<mhz> Yagisan: thx
* mhz forgets there are bots
<Yagisan> mhz, np. I took a guess as to the bots command
<cbx33> hi all
<mhz> hi, cbx33 
* mhz is becoming a kind of spanish-speaker bot ;)
<cbx33> hows esa translation coming along mhz ?
<mhz> nice and cool
<mhz> I am using a moin instance for it :D
<mhz> however, the few hands I have available had to be for diff needs. Then, 4 hands are working on edubuntu.org into es, and my 2 hands on ESA
<mhz> so it will take a little longer than I expected (maybe this whole week)
<mhz> and then, Handbook is also very important, so I am drafting what I will write about there, too.
<jsgotangco> i think you should officially change your name to Moin Hernandez
* jsgotangco hides
<mhz> and, I am trying to make a couple of wallpapers and themes with Chilean symbols, to see if I can get more Chileans encouraged to join #edubuntu-es
<cbx33> that's cool
<cbx33> jsgotangco, haha
<mhz> jsgotangco: what do you think 'mhz' stands for?
<jsgotangco> mauricio?
<jsgotangco> heh
<mhz> jsgotangco: BTW, did you get any url about my question for such thin laptops manufactured near you?
<jsgotangco> no not at all
<mhz> me neither
<jsgotangco> im sure i have it in my bookmarks somewhere
* mhz needs to find out about such machines
<jsgotangco> try looking for an OEM named ECS
<jsgotangco> and Twinhead
<mhz> jsgotangco: okis, thx
<mhz_zZzZ> nn all
* mhz_zZzZ goes thinking about GvR
<cbx33> new minutes are up
<cbx33> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EdubuntuMeetingRecordsNew
* mode/#edubuntu [+o highvoltage]  by ChanServ
* mode/#edubuntu [-o highvoltage]  by highvoltage
<RichEd_> morning highvoltage ... and anyone else :)
<toosa> hi ! I am from Indonesia
<RichEd_> hello toosa ... greetings from the bottom of Africa - Cape Town, South Africa
<toosa> hello RichEd
* mode/#edubuntu [+o highvoltage]  by ChanServ
<toosa> btw, at 29th July we will held our 2nd Edubuntu IstallFest and Seminar
* mode/#edubuntu [-o highvoltage]  by highvoltage
<RichEd_> toosa ... just trying to sort out a problem on my pother machine ... but I am interested to chat about this
<RichEd_> porther <- other
<toosa> ok
<RichEd_> i am looking after the education programme ... so i want to hear more !
<toosa> we are living in small town at south of Jakarta (Indonesian Capital)
<toosa> we believe that Edubuntu will suit our Edu Env ... but it need a lot of works to do fo sure
<toosa> suite
<toosa>  (sorry for my poor english)
<RichEd_> well i am here to listen to your comments : your good comments and your issues as well 
<RichEd_> no problem with the english at all : i am not be able to speak your language !
<toosa> The effect of so many software pirates here, makes people know M$ more than linux
<RichEd_> not be able <- not able 
<toosa> :) thx
<jsgotangco> hey
<RichEd_> hey jsgotangco :) thought you disappeared earlier 
<toosa> Me and my firend have wrote an Edubuntu books in Bahasa 
<toosa> :)
<RichEd_> toosa ... can you send me an email with some background on your installfest event ?
<jsgotangco> RichEd_: yeah i had to relocate my machine, its raining so hard here in the office building i had to move my machine somewhere that is not dripping :/
<RichEd_> and you can include any other comments !
* jsgotangco wants to move out of this forsaken office
<toosa> I have a story about that ... wait I am looking for the URL first ...
<RichEd_> toosa : have you submitted your Edubuntu book to the web site for others to access ?
<toosa> not yet
<RichEd_> it would be a good idea to share ...
<RichEd_> toosa: richard.edubuntu@gmail.com
<toosa> the copyright is owned by the publisher already
<RichEd_> ah ... were you paid to write it ?
<RichEd_> jsgotangco: forgive the trivial response last night ... had a domestic deadline to get to 
<jsgotangco> RichEd_: no worries im just online anyways
<toosa> This the URL (sorry for the poor of my english .. again) http://toosa.oo-linux.com/weblog/index.php?op=ViewArticle&articleId=25&blogId=3
<RichEd_> so take to heart that ii am very interested in your issues, and how we cope with these with limited resources
<toosa> yes, 
<RichEd_> we need to address your issues and work out how to move forwards in a wat that grows
<jsgotangco> toosa: are you from jakarta?
<RichEd_> way <- way
<toosa> the publisher paid me ( not much, but enough for me)
<toosa> yes .. I am in Jakarta
<jsgotangco> cool i am in Manila
<toosa> Depok exactly
<toosa> 10 km from jakarta
<RichEd_> (sustainable growth is what i am trying to say)
* RichEd_ moves to notebook
<RichEd_> back in 5 mins
<toosa> Hi jsgotangco
<jsgotangco> hey
<toosa> I have been in Manila at Dec 2004 in 1 week :D
<jsgotangco> oh did you like it
<jsgotangco> its a cool time to be here
<toosa> yes, but I forgot what the event name that i joined ... it is related to ASEAN MOE Organization
<toosa> sorry brb in 5 min
<jsgotangco> toosa: sorry my connection is dropping its raining so hard here
<toosa> i'm back
<toosa> jsgotanco ... what are doing in Manila ?
<jsgotangco> toosa: i currently work here, i was born here, lived outside for a while then went back home
<toosa> btw, Oh iya I just remember ... I joined in SEAMEO Seminar in Manila 2004
<toosa> (south east asia ministry of edu)
<toosa> do you teach at school ?
<jsgotangco> no i don't teach. Im a software developer by profession
<toosa> ic
<jsgotangco> i did made some lectures in schools before
<jsgotangco> what i mostly do in edubuntu is test the amd64 builds and write documentation for a few applications
<jsgotangco> toosa: how is edubuntu in indonesia?
<toosa> i don't know exactly how is edubuntu in Indonesia ... but linux is growing fast now
<jsgotangco> what happened to the government project with Sun?
<toosa> I heard about that ... but don't know much
<toosa> we move in the grass root :)
<jsgotangco> i see
* jsgotangco is not so familiar with the free software landscape of indonesia
<RichEd> hi toosa: i'm back :)
<RichEd> can you send me an email with your email contact address ?
<RichEd> i'd like to ask you a few questions when i am not so busy
<toosa> pht854@yahoo.com
<toosa> thanks RichEd
<toosa> or pht854@gmail.com
<RichEd> thanks ...
<toosa> would you try to send me some test email, so i can add yours in address (avoiding jump to bulk folder)
<toosa> address bool
<toosa> book
<RichEd> doing that now ... brb 5 min
<jsgotangco> wow is amd64 and ppc oversided or borked?
<RichEd> toosa: check your mail please :)
<toosa> ok
<toosa> checking
<toosa> ok i ve got it
<RichEd> thanks ... please send me a simple reply now ... and more to follow when you have a chance.
<toosa> ok
<cbx33> Guten Morgen
<jsgotangco> hi
<RichEd> 'lo cbx33 :)
<cbx33> hi RichEd 
<cbx33> wanted to speak to you
<cbx33> 5 mins
<RichEd> opo open a PVT and send me the start message ... busy in email and off to a meeting soon ... but can get a bit done before then
<RobinShepheard> hiya everybody
<jsgotangco> hi
<jsgotangco> RobinShepheard: sorry bout that
<RobinShepheard> hey no worries, I just didn't want anyone to think I was something I wasn't, if you see what I mean
<jsgotangco> understandable
<RobinShepheard> how are things going??
<jsgotangco> pretty good
* RichEd goes to clean up for a meeting with some suits - back in 15
<jsgotangco> pretty busy guy =)
<toosa> to RichEd .. i ve replied ur email
<toosa> Sorry guys ... i need to logoff. have a meeting outside
<toosa> bye
<cbx33> bye toosa 
<jsgotangco> ciao
<jsgotangco> selamat tinggal
<toosa> :)
<ogra> hmm, no RichEd today ?
<pygi> ogra, care to tell me name of python bindings for both libglade and gtk?
<ogra> python-glade2 and python-gtk2
<cbx33> ogra: he was here earlier
<pygi> ogra, thanks :)
<cbx33> ogra, how are you :p
<ajmitch> hi ogra :)
<cbx33> hi ajmitch how goes the project?
<ajmitch> it goes ok
<cbx33> hehe
<cbx33> good good 
<ogra> cbx33, relaxed, upstream incuded al gnome-screensaver patches, which makes package maintenance a charm :)
<cbx33> ogra: good for you :p
<cbx33> I'll be finishing up grasynco this afternoon I hoipe
<ogra> take your time, next milestone is still a week away or so
* ajmitch has a lot more working this week than at the start of last week ;)
<cbx33> :)
<bddebian> Heya
<pygi> hey bddebian 
<bddebian> Hello pygi
<jsgotangco> hey bddebian
<jsgotangco> hey pygi
<bddebian> Heya jsgotangco
<pygi> jsgotangco, :)
<pygi> how are you?
<jsgotangco> SUPER
<jsgotangco> i finally got out of the house after 4 days of rain
<pygi> nice :)
<ogra> mmm, rain
<jsgotangco> well its still raining but i went out!
* ogra looks envoius
<jsgotangco> all the water is driving me crazy being stuck inside this house
* pygi thinks his internet connection is very slow :(
* mhz loves rain
* mhz loves rain and being at home
* mhz used to be like Sandra Bullock in 'The Net' movie ;)
<ogra> RichEd, rodarvus, i just got a call from the car rental, seems i can only pick up the truck for my final move at 12:00 UTC tomorrow, could one of you lead the meeting ? 
<rodarvus> sure, no problem
<RichEd> hi ... i am willing to chari but may need some help ... perhaps we can both work together ?
<RichEd> chair <- chari
<RichEd> hi mhz :)
<mhz> hi RichEd 
<RichEd> my email response was very brief, but i am giving your issues some good thought for a meaningful respnse
<ogra> the general agenda is on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EdubuntuMeetingAgenda ... there is nothing special on the plan...
<mhz> RichEd: ;) take your time, it was lot of info
<RichEd> the issues you face are common in many countries ... and resources are limited if we try to tackle each one by one
<RichEd> i hope to find a way of addresing your issues, that we can rollover into other territories ... sustained growth .. rather than a short term focus & then move on
<mhz> indeed, however, having a more unite solution would help a lot in lobbying for support in each country
<RichEd> yes ... as I said S America & Africa & "other developing nations" have similar issues
<RichEd> so we need a plan ... not a once off solution.
<RichEd> ogra ... no problem ... looks fine ... i am happy to chair.
<mhz> yup, agree
<ogra> great 
<ogra> thanks in advance ... i might be back in 15mins anyway, but i'm not sure
* jsgotangco peeks
<RichEd> i know that JaneW was doing this meeting organisation & charing before ... and was kind of dumped on you. if you would ratehr free up your time & headpace for coding, we can discuss me taking it off your shoulders.
<RichEd> (back in 15 mins ... quick collection duty)
<mhz> nice, it stays in weideman realms ;)
<ogra> well, i usually have to give the tech update anyway, so i can chair as well ... but rotating the chairman at some point in the future would be fine the 
<ogra> n
<mhz> ogra: is there a more updated verion of schooltool available (packaged) or that someone is working on currently for edubuntu?
<ogra> there is an updated debian package ... but that seems to have only minor tweaks and i'm sure doko will care for it if he updtaes zope
<mhz> ogra: and then, that means we will get a more "convincing" schooltool to demo shipped by edubuntu edgy? (current is good, but the few people I have demo schooltool to they go to the project's home page and see the other features and then ask me about them)
<ogra> mhz, i somewhat rely on the packages from debian ... 
<jinty> mhz: what you are asking for is actually very difficult;) even if you don't consider that upgrading to a development version can do very bad things to the schooltool database.
<mhz> jinty: oh, why?
<ogra> because development versions may have bugs :)
<ogra> even the kin of bugs that wipe your DB ;)
<ogra> *kind
* mhz is interested because in Colombia, some guys are working on a php thing that is aimed towards similar objectives (but php :( )
<mhz> ogra: eeek, 
<ogra> thats what dev versions are for ;)
<mhz> i see
<jinty> because if there is a bug in the database upgrade script in a development version (as there have been) and you use it on a live database. The schooltool developers are probably not interested in hearing your problems.
<mhz> jinty: ogra, okis
<RichEd> mhz: i am having a sidebar email conversation with Tom around SchoolTool
<jinty> but, mhz, if you want a demo to show people, have a look at demo.schooltool.org
<mhz> I'll have patience and see what colombians are doing, and try to have arguments to convince teachers to wait for schooltool or just help in developing (if they know zope)
<RichEd> we will probably have an IRC chat about it later this week ... i am keen for input from others to get all views
<RichEd> we (edubuntu) don't want to develop apps & features that other people are working towards ...
<mhz> jinty: yeah :) But the ide is schools implement Edubuntu after my demos 
<mhz> ide =idea
* mhz is not complaining, btw
<mhz> RichEd: exactly
<RichEd> but we want to plug gaps in functionality that hamper adoption.
<jinty> mhz: bug me again after the next zope3.3 and I can point you to a private repository containing the latest schooltool packages
<mhz> Tom is a nice guy (so far, hehehe) and I know he's making good efforts on taking schooltool to a nice 'suite'
<mhz> jinty: thx, I will 
* mhz is not usre jinty wants mhz to bug him 
<mhz> usre =sure
<RichEd> mhz: agreed but same sort of background constraints ... limited resource bandwidth
<mhz> lol
<RichEd> ideally we want to develop the best operating platform ...
<mhz> yeah, same old story :(
<RichEd> and let others develop on top of that
<RichEd> we need to help them ... and work together towards a common education goal ...
* jinty cannot build working packages until the next zope3.3 beta and surely will forget to let mhz he has actually built them
<mhz> RichEd: iirc, Tom told us that it was difficult to find people developing on zope
<mhz> (zope 3)
<RichEd> but we can't develop all things for all people ... would dilute our offering too much.
<RichEd> yep .. he has sent me a long background email ... would you like to scan it and send comment ?
<jsgotangco> ?
<mhz> RichEd: sure. The good thing about education, is that objectives may vary, approach may vary, but needs are usually the same
<mhz> RichEd: cool, sure
<jsgotangco> why oh why is our Edubuntu meeting at 4am again
<jsgotangco> oh wait
<jsgotangco> 8pm
<RichEd> yep ... so if we pool the end requirements, divide them up, and all specialise, there should be enough of us to get around to it all.
* jsgotangco hides in shame
<mhz> jsgotangco: hehehe
<mhz> jsgotangco: see? smoking can kill you... it affects your vision, and so, you may get a heart attack if you keep seeing meetings are at 4 am every week :D
<jsgotangco> i dont care it tastes good in the morning
<mhz> RichEd: 100% agreed, and one difficult thing for me so far in Chile is that teachers are kind of relactant (not sure to participate?) to help in a community fashion, esp. when it is about producing content 
<jsgotangco> don't ask them for help[
<mhz> so, specialisation in evangelizing teachers is one area :)
<jsgotangco> let them come to you
<mhz> jsgotangco: that is why I am commited to demo Edubuntu at least once a week
<jsgotangco> focus on the benfefit of using free software rather than the features
<mhz> my guess is that out 100 teachers seeing edubuntu in action, at least 5 would come to us
<jsgotangco> or else they will just compare to the competition
<mhz> jsgotangco: good point. I have written 3 articles for a magazine focused on education needs in Chile. Those articles are all related to more philosophical principles on why FLOSS is so key on education, and how it benefits the entire educatioanl community
<RichEd> well i hope that once i have met sabdfl & silbs face to face (Aug 2-3) we can come up with an "agreed focused education message" ... not just an education version of ubuntu, but what we are hoping to provide (in terms of resultant human time or work or education improvements)
<mhz> nice, it is needed
<jsgotangco> are you going to london?
<RichEd> once we have the clear target message (in a tailored version (or POV) for all audiences) we can then work in the same direction
<RichEd> us (internally), and our partners
<RichEd> yes ... london ... mark & jane realise that due to the number of enquiries and the great reception by the community to the excellent work done thus far, it now needs a focus which they have not had the time to provide themselves
<RichEd> so i am here to help with that ... that's the way i see it.
<jsgotangco> thats good news wish i could devote more time in the future though
<ogra> i think its more 
<ogra> like taking the right decisions for the software we ship etc ...
<RichEd> ogra: agreed ... with a lot of guidance from inside & outside
<ajmitch> ogra: I notice there's a couple of specs waiting on network-auth (blueprint has a fancy graph now) - what parts are you needing done?
<th1a> mhz:  what are the Columbians doing?
<ogra> ajmitch, me ?
<ajmitch> ogra: well, one of them is yours, at least :) edubuntu-user-management
<ogra> ajmitch, there is only one spec i'm aware of, but that was postponed to edgy+1 ... the fat client support
<ajmitch> right
<ogra> edubuntu-user-management was dropped long ago ... since its in fact your SoC ;)
<ajmitch> heh
<ogra> so we didnt see the need to keep it as a distinct spec
<ajmitch> I see it's just the graph being confusing then :)
<ajmitch> ah, obsolete
<ajmitch> that's good, I can go back to coding & leave you to discuss important stuff :)
<mhz> th1a: the colombians guys are working on a kind of CanDo, a TimeTable interface for an algorythm, and an application to help students review previous studied content
<th1a> mhz: Ah.
<th1a> mhz:  Do you know what they're writing it in?  PHP?  Java?
<th1a> mhz:  Are these open source projects?
<mhz> th1a: in Chile, a couple of friends are working on a Claroline based platform aimed to provide ... well claroline stuff :)  and also the information the Minestry of Education demands (so far schools are enouraged and kind of forced to provide all info via Books..by hand), like attendance reports, marks reports, behaviour reports, contents taught, etc.
<mhz> th1a: php
<mhz> th1a: afaik, should be GPLed
<mhz> th1a: i can contact you with some of them (the people I know). One of them speaks english as well.
<mhz> and is a python coder (he loves moin just as much as i do, jsgotangco , so I am not alone :D )
<Yagisan> mhz, is it a chick ?
<mhz> Yagisan: a girl?
<Yagisan> yep
<mhz> nope :(
<Yagisan> damm.
<mhz> Yagisan: and you are married :)
<mhz> oh, but not dead, uh?
<Yagisan> mhz, don't worry, you'll find a moin moin chick someday
<jsgotangco> i love moin?
<ogra> jsgotangco, you didnt know ? o_O
<mhz> Yagisan: shakira is the one, very intelligent...if she just coded python and loved moin....oh, and were interested in me, of course ...cool!
<jsgotangco> i dunno i saw a highlight of my nick and me loving moin lol
<mhz> jsgotangco: " as much as i do, jsgotangco , so I am not alone" (i am not alone)
* Yagisan wants a chick that never has pms
<Yagisan> never
<mhz> lol
<jsgotangco> heh sorry its almost midnight here so i feel like im on drugs at the moment
* Yagisan oftens can tell when pms is comming. Am I in trouble ? Yep. Do I know what I did ? No. Right must be PMS
<mhz> .oO(and I thought I was asking for too much thinking shakira should code in python)
<mhz> jsgotangco: again?
* Yagisan can dream
<mhz> ;)
<jsgotangco> mhz: its called rock and roll dude
<mhz> heheheh
<mhz> th1a: http://structio.sourceforge.net/sigue/ --> to keep records of students progress and issue reports to parents and school, via LaTex
<mhz> th1a: http://structio.sourceforge.net/repasa/ --> to help students review previously studied contens (some things use Ocaml)
<th1a> mhz:  Thanks.
<mhz> th1a: http://structio.sourceforge.net/asigna/ --> to create TT's, entering classrooms and teachers (even allows the use of fixed weekly hours for teachers). It can export to lp_solve (no idea what that is)
<mhz> you are wlcome
<mhz> e
<mhz> and they are all GPLed
<th1a> I see.
<RichEd> mhz: school tool email on its way ... if you have time ... great ... if not, no problem
<mhz> RichEd: i have the time (so far) unless someone calls me for a job interview...(difficult when rain is so intense)
<RichEd> cool ( and maybe wet in patches ;)
<mhz> hehe
<mhz> BTW, RichEd, may I suggest you take a look into http://www.exelearning.org/ ?  It is one possible approach towards content creation and SCORM 'compatible', afaik.
* mhz is reading email
<RichEd> okay ... 
* RichEd adds the bookmark to very long "to research list"
* ogra starts to fear the software flood that will come once RichEd is through that
<ogra> :)
<RichEd> baby steps ... not tyring to drown or be drowned :)
<RichEd> trying even <-
<ogra> just go ahead, i work best under pressure ;)
<jsgotangco> you know, its been a well-known practice to actually outsource those "boring, mundane" to research lists
<jsgotangco> heh
* RichEd pumps ogra to 3 bar
<ogra> lol
* ogra flies through the room in quick circles making a shrieking sound
* jsgotangco just read this book "The world is flat"
<bddebian> ogra is a vampire?
<jsgotangco> he'll be one soon if g-p-m makes him suffer more
<ogra> yeah
<ogra> i see smoe fun work ahead with that 
<mhz> eeek, if so, then next time I see this mag title "Interview with Ogra"..I'd better not read it.
<ogra> the good old "notify being charged at every % between 90 and 100" bug is back ...
<ogra> and i have forgotten how we solved it last time ... *sigh* 
<jsgotangco> doh!
* RichEd wants someone to confirm the meeting tme to make sure I have got this UTC thing right
<RichEd> Jul 26 at 12:00 UTC in #ubuntu-meeting
<ogra> yep
<RichEd> that's 12:00 midday tomorrow GMT
<ogra> thats 14:00 CET
<ogra> dunno what for .za
<ogra> RichEd, come over to -meeting, i'll show you something :)
<RichEd> ogra: we're the same for Daylight Savings
<RichEd> but an hour difference when your are on normal time.
* mhz just learned that GMT = UTC, but GMT can suffer summer time changes
<ogra> yup
<ogra> but still, come over to -meeting :)
<mhz> hehehe
<ogra> (#ubuntu-meeting)
<RichEd> thanks teachers ... you learn a little more every day
<RichEd> as in i learn <- first person
<cbx33> ping Yagisan 
<RichEd> later guys & girls ... off to see my kids for dinner
<Lord_Athur> hi all
<mhz> Lord_Athur: hi
<Guest477> is anyone using kubuntu or edubuntu able to use java in an environment like yahoo games? i have repeated and unsuccesfully beaten this to a pulp... note that under this installation of ubuntu i am able to properly access most java based resources 
<jsgotangco> hmmm
<jsgotangco> are you sure i could easily play literati on my system
<jsgotangco> just by downloading the sun-java5 packages from multiverse
<Guest477> not jsgot> unable to get package from repos
<Guest477> java also shows already installed under both variations
<Guest477> i attempted requesting reinstallation of all java packages in kubuntu and edu also, both failed
<jsgotangco> you have to enable multiverse to get sun-java5
<Guest477> done as far as i am able
<Guest477> us.ubuntu .somethingeranother?
<jsgotangco> ok how about the browser plugins
<jsgotangco> sun-java5-plugin
<Guest477> let me try somemore, hoping that someone else had experienced this problem :)
<Guest477> ty i will try that
<Lord_Athur> bye
<cbx33> evenin LaserJock 
<LaserJock> hi cbx33 
<LaserJock> cbx33: well it's on LP anyway: https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/gisomount
<Guest477> many times i have read or been told that sun-java is in repos>> could i get the address of the repository(s) that hold said java and plugins?
<cbx33> LaserJock, :D:D
<cbx33> does this mean bug reporting will now be done on that page?
<mhz_food> Guest477: have you tried enabling repos via Synaptic?
<Guest477> yes
<Guest477> 18,832 packages in synaptic
<Guest477> search for "sun java" comes up empty >> 0 packages
<cbx33> Guest477, what about apt-cache search java ?
<cbx33> pete@ubuntu:~$ apt-cache search java | grep sun
<cbx33> jikes-sun - Wrapper for jikes using Sun Java classes
<cbx33> sun-java5-bin - Sun Java(TM) Runtime Environment (JRE) 5.0
<cbx33> sun-java5-demo - Sun Java(TM) Development Kit (JDK) 5.0 demos and examples
<cbx33> sun-java5-doc - Sun JDK(TM) Documention -- integration installer
<cbx33> sun-java5-fonts - Lucida TrueType fonts (from the Sun JRE)
<cbx33> sun-java5-jdk - Sun Java(TM) Development Kit (JDK) 5.0
<cbx33> sun-java5-jre - Sun Java(TM) Runtime Environment (JRE) 5.0
<cbx33> sun-java5-plugin - The Java(TM) Plug-in, Java SE 5.0
<cbx33> sun-java5-source - Sun Java(TM) Development Kit (JDK) 5.0 source files
<cbx33> pete@ubuntu:~$
<cbx33> whoops 
<cbx33> sorry guys
<LaserJock> cbx33: for Ubuntu yes, and then they should go upstream ;-)
<LaserJock> shesh
<Guest477> ty cbx33 > can u tell me the address of the repo?
<Guest477> or repos? i want to visually check accuracy
<LaserJock> Multiverse
<cbx33> it's multiverse
<cbx33> ah...thanks LaserJock 
<Guest477> i understand this much, can you give me the address
<Guest477> muliverse is not an option in repo setting
<cbx33> LaserJock, by should go upstream? do you mean automatically
<mhz_food> Guest477: i have same # of packages in synaptic list
<mhz_food> Guest477: i have just searched 'java'
<Guest477> where may i go to discover the addresses of the known repositories?
<Guest477> please
<Guest477> :)
<cbx33> Guest477, hang on two ticks
<Guest477> ty :)
<mhz_food> and voila... 
<LaserJock> cbx33: no, it won't be automatic unfortunately
<LaserJock> Guest477: you don't need addresses
<mhz_food> j2sdk1.4
<cbx33>  deb http://gb.archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ dapper multiverse
<cbx33>  deb-src http://gb.archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ dapper multiverse
<Guest477> laserjock > yes i do
<cbx33> those can go in the /etc/apt/sources.list file
<Guest477> tyvm cbx33 :)
<mhz_food> Guest477: i am lost...you dont want the package?
<cbx33> LaserJock, meaning I have to back track the bugs from LP ubuntu to LP gisomount product ?
<LaserJock> cbx33: bah, that's not the "right" way to do that
<cbx33> LaserJock, what is?
<LaserJock> cbx33: more or less
<cbx33> synaptic?
<LaserJock> cbx33: you shouldn't tell people to edit sources.list
<cbx33> sorry LaserJock 
<LaserJock> np
<cbx33> unless they are cofortable with it?
<cbx33> or at all
<Guest477> cbx33 > you are the most helpful, please ignore reproofs :)
<LaserJock> System->Administration->Software Properties
<LaserJock> is the tool for that
<cbx33> cool ok LaserJock 
<cbx33> Guest477, no, I was in the wrong
<cbx33> as valid as my information was
<cbx33> it was _NOT_ the most helpful
<LaserJock> well, it works
<LaserJock> but it's a bit safer to use the GUI
<LaserJock> for just Multiverse because it's already in there
<LaserJock> no worries about typos, etc.
<mhz_food> LaserJock: i am lost again... why can't we suggest to use command line?
<LaserJock> because there is already a GUI tool for this that elimates some problems
<LaserJock> it's not that you can't
<LaserJock> it's just that there is a better tool, so why not use it
<cbx33> heheh
<LaserJock> now, if you are stuck ssh'ing to all your boxes you edit sources.list
<mhz_food> LaserJock: oh, true. But many users (like me) have light hardware computers, so the more GUI apps we use, the slower our performance is
<LaserJock> sure
<mhz_food> now i get it
<LaserJock> but as a recommendation to somebody who says "How do I enable Multiverse?"
<mhz_food> LaserJock: +1 totally agreed
<LaserJock> </doc team rant> ;-)
<Guest477> cbx33 > i am becoming more and more farmilliar with editing files and will manually edit the souces.list if able, i want to make sure your error doesn't extend to the rpo addresses which u have provided me, are they accurate?
<LaserJock> Guest477: first try this, go to System -> Administration -> Software Properties
<Guest477> forgive my abruptness laserjock, but you are not helpful... please refrain
<Guest477> :)
<LaserJock> Guest477: I'm being helpful, please listen ;-)
<mhz_food> lol
<cbx33> Guest477, I suggest you listen to LaserJock 
<cbx33> he is a very good friend and extremely knowledgable, much more so than I
<Guest477> cbx33 > my level of experience may exceed that of his advice
<LaserJock> Guest477: we can show you both ways if you want, but you are better off starting with the way I showed you
<Guest477> yuours is more on par with my ?'s
<Guest477> i have started thank you laser
<LaserJock> for instance, cbx33's lines are localized so you might not get a fast connection
<Guest477> i will pursue this of my own accord from here thanks
<LaserJock> hehe
<cbx33> my my
<LaserJock> I was going to show him everything
<LaserJock> oh well
<cbx33> no no LaserJock he knew it all already
<cbx33> :p
<cbx33> I'm sorry, it was all my fault :(
<LaserJock> heck no
<LaserJock> you were helping him out
<mhz_food> ?
<mhz_food> well...it happens at least once a day on any channel...
<mhz_food> now it was out time
<mhz_food> :)
<LaserJock> cbx33: gmail
<Guest477> cbx33 > thanks only to your direct answers i have successfully updated my /etc/apt/soures.list and am updating with sun java files
<Guest477> cbx33 thank you again for your candor :)
<Guest477> and fyi laserjock, the repositories needed were not in my list of available repositories to enable, ty for learning :)
<Guest477> God bless you all and have a terrific day
<LaserJock> well, for Guest477's information, probably https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Repositories/Ubuntu explains it better than me :-)
<mhz_food> yeah!
<mhz> LaserJock: in #moin, we have a bot that when you use wiki:UbuntuRepositories (for example), it imediately provides the full URL
<mhz> well, it works for one level pages (not subpages)
<LaserJock> hmm
<LaserJock> that's pretty cool
<mhz> indeed
<LaserJock> that's the only thing I'm not liking about the wiki move
<mhz> yup
<LaserJock> we went from wiki.ubuntu.com to help.ubuntu.com/community
<LaserJock> more typing for me :(
<mhz> but maybe we could have a similar bot, that provides a couple of coincidences
<mhz> and for everyone :D
<cbx33> LaserJock, how did the doc team meeting go
<cbx33> was the ESA goign to help.ubu brought up?
<LaserJock> cbx33: ah yes, I did bring it up
<LaserJock> mdke said that if Edubuntu wants a doc on help.ubuntu.com just send an email to the ubuntu-doc list
<LaserJock> the doc team will just check it over to make sure it meets the doc-team standards (stuff like good spelling and grammar, valid HTML probably) 
<LaserJock> and it will be added
<cbx33> ok cool
<Burgwork> LaserJock, we have standards?
<LaserJock> well, yeah know, gotta make up something ;-)
<cbx33> LaserJock, will you handle that?
<cbx33> or do you want me to send the mail?
<LaserJock> cbx33: why don't you do it
<cbx33> ok
<mhz> Does anyone know when next UCC meeting is?
<Burgwork> mhz, fridge shoudl have it
<mhz> oh, I forget there is fridge...
* mhz was so used to use wiki info only
<mhz> Burgwork: hmm. nope. I dont see it on fridge, nor on #ubuntu-meeting
<mhz> next 14 days...no UCC meeting
<mhz> Burgwork: and not even on August 2006
<pygi> Burgwork, yay :)
<Burgwork> pygi, yay?
<pygi> Burgwork, nothing :) Any new on SoC student? all good?
<Burgwork> nothing, but I have been crazy busy helping my parents move
<mhz> ogra is one of your parents?
<mhz> :D
<Burgwork> no, thankfully/sadly
<mhz_work> hehe
<mhz_work> any one here using GvR?
<Burgwork> mhz_work, gvr?
<mhz_work> Guido van Robot
<LaserJock> haha
<Burgwork> ah
<mhz_work> by Guido Van Rossom, afaik
<mhz_work> the creator of pyton?
<mhz_work> http://gvr.sourceforge.net/
<mhz_work> it is supposed to be great tool to intoduce programming to people like me or kids with no idea of programming at all
<mhz_work> so, my question should have been: Anyone using GvR at schools or alike?
<mhz_work> !seen jelkner
<ubotu> I haven't seen jelkner recently
<mhz_work> !lastseen jelkner
<ubotu> I know nothing about lastseen jelkner - try searching http://bots.ubuntulinux.nl/factoids.cgi?db=ubuntu
<mhz_work> !last seen jelkner
<ubotu> I know nothing about last seen jelkner - try searching http://bots.ubuntulinux.nl/factoids.cgi?db=ubuntu
<pygi> !seen jelkner
<ubotu> I haven't seen jelkner recently
<pygi> there mhz_work :)
<mhz_work> yeah, that was 1st option, thx
<mhz_work> i need someone, ideally with teaching experience on python
<mhz_work> afaik, jelkner has
<mhz_work> and is very into GvR too
<mhz_work> or GVRng
<mhz_work> next generation
<th1a> mhz_work:  I'll be seeing jelkner this weekend.
<mhz_work> th1a: cool
#edubuntu 2006-07-26
<mhz_work> th1a: i wish he could pay a visiti to this channel
<mhz_work> th1a: also, I would appreciate a url to download the IntroducingPython.mpg from (I only get a cut version, in 48 MB video)
<mhz_work> th1a: and last... (this is FYI), I reading more in depth about SIF and how it coul be applied to Chile and other LAm countries
<Yagisan> !seen spacey
<ubotu> I last saw spacey (n=herman@ubuntu/member/spacey) 4h 55m 8s ago, quiting: "Ex-Chat"
* Yagisan-aWay is Away, Reason: ( Getting Medical Tests :( ) | Since: ( Monday July 24 2006. 23:20:39 ) Xlack v2.1
<jsgotangco> rodarvus!
<rodarvus> jsgotangco, hi there :)
<rodarvus> I was online all the time ;)
<jsgotangco> rodarvus: did you receive your olpc board already?
<rodarvus> now I was just restarting X to test an update of Mesa and xorg-server
<rodarvus> jsgotangco, yup
<rodarvus> its here
<rodarvus> I even tested it
<jsgotangco> sugar?
<rodarvus> but the usb key I had here is FUBAR
<rodarvus> and I need to buy a new one
<rodarvus> jsgotangco, no, the whole environment
<jsgotangco> ahh
<jsgotangco> is it technically possible?
<LaserJock> hi guys
<jsgotangco> hey
<LaserJock> I decided to try out my sandisk mp3 player in OS X today... it ate all my music :-)
<crimsun> serves you right for using a proprietary OS
<crimsun> ;-)
<LaserJock> heck yeah
<LaserJock> and the stupid thing only plays mp3s and wmas I think
<jsgotangco> well i haven't found any decent commercial player that has good ogg support
<jsgotangco> out of the box
<crimsun> didn't iriver used to make some models that played vorbis?
<jsgotangco> not sure if theyre good at all
<jsgotangco> we dont get iriver over here though, mostly creative and samsung
<LaserJock> crimsun: yes, I looked for some
<LaserJock> but the store I went to didn't have any of the iriver's that had ogg :/
<LaserJock> and the sandisk was cheap (which was pretty important)
<jsgotangco> heh
<Southron> Hi, Nalioth.
<Southron> nalioth: I checked the MD5 on that edubuntu ISO and it checked out fine.
<nalioth> Southron: did you burn it at 4x or less?
<Southron> No, I used Toast and let it choose the "Best" speed.
<Southron> I'll try slowing it down.
<jsgotangco> burn the cd at lowest possible the data is very tightly compressed
<jsgotangco> 4x would be fine
<crimsun> jsgotangco assembled the bits very careful over three weeks.
<crimsun> -lly
<jsgotangco> doh
<Southron> :D
<jsgotangco> "India's 'monster eater' retires"
<nalioth> my first time in #edubuntu but it looks awfully familiar for some reason
<LaserJock> hmm, well its seems like any channel I go into has crimsun in it
<crimsun> no, I hit the channel limit a long time ago and stopped trying to join all the ones I need to
<LaserJock> wow
<LaserJock> you're right
<LaserJock> it just happens that those are all ones I'm in
<mhz> jsgotangco: can you re-tell me the names I should look up (10 inches laptops thing), pease?
<jsgotangco> ecs
<jsgotangco> twinhead
<jsgotangco> asus
<jsgotangco> hmmm
<jsgotangco> acer has those as well but with chinese keyboards though
<mhz> hmm, you mentioned another one
<jsgotangco> i thin even benq has small joybooks as well
<jsgotangco> lenovo
<jsgotangco> (not the ibm variety)
<jsgotangco> even redfox has laptops
<jsgotangco> (most of these are mobo manufacturers as well)
<jsgotangco> (they may even go in another brand name in other countries btw)
* mhz sighs
<mhz> jsgotangco: thx
<mhz> I
<mhz> I'll see what I can do with this info
<jsgotangco> every 2 weeks i receive a price mag of whats out and whats being replaced
<jsgotangco> mhz: this is what you want
<jsgotangco> http://mobilitytoday.com/news/006731/ubuntu_sony_ux
<mhz> jsgotangco: but the specs are very specific in my case... 10 inches, 512 MB, 9 GB, 1 RJ45, 1 PCMCIA, bootable from internal CD or external one  + other stuff
<mhz> and for U$150
<bddebian> Hello
<mhz> jsgotangco: I am crying watching those photos
* mhz wants to provide such kind of equipment for teachers
<mhz> jsgotangco: i know you are not fan of moin as I am but I am sure you'll see the benfits of this: http://moinmoin.wikiwikiweb.de/HelpOnConfiguration/EmailSupport
* jsgotangco checks
<jsgotangco> make your moin a mail client?
<jsgotangco> goodness what's next have it manage my schedule?
<mhz> nah, jsgotangco we are not google :D
<mhz> jsgotangco: but see the benefits of mailing your wiki pages, and or can have wiki links to your emails
<mhz> ?
<jsgotangco> well yes 
<ChrisSLA> Hello... can I ask a support question?
<mhz> sure, just shoot, and those peopel awake will try to answer
<ChrisSLA> great... has anyone tried to put Edubuntu on a Gateway m255-E laptop? I might be using Gateway for a 1:1 laptop solution using Edubuntu.
<mhz> I use my 500 Mhz Celeron for such purpose
<mhz> not the best performance, but it has worked
<jsgotangco> this is a dual core laptop
<jsgotangco> it should work nicely
<mhz> yup
<mhz> sorry, that was my point, in other words ;)
<jsgotangco> the wireless should run out of the box since its IPW2200
<jsgotangco> WXGA should run nicely as well
<jsgotangco> can't say about the card reader though
<jsgotangco> you can install the 686 kernel later to take advantage of your cpu
<ChrisSLA> Right.
<ChrisSLA> if the card reader is the only thing that doesn't work, we'll live.
<jsgotangco> well there's the modem as well
<jsgotangco> but most people with linux experience are aware of it
<jsgotangco> (would be interesting to know if the shortcut keys will work too)
<ChrisSLA> fill me in... all my linux experience has been server-side, not desktop side. What's the modem issue?
<jsgotangco> drivers
<ChrisSLA> do they exist? ;)
<jsgotangco> they are pretty much in the same league as winmodems
<crimsun> linuxant may have some
<jsgotangco> there are some non-free drivers though
<jsgotangco> but you'll have to check your system
<ChrisSLA> hm. Not having modem access for lower-income kids who don't necessarily have high bandwidth at home would be a bad thing.
<jsgotangco> yes that's an issue
<ChrisSLA> hm, where would you suggest I start looking?
<jsgotangco> are you deploying it on a mass scale?
<ChrisSLA> school-wide, if we do it. Yes.
<ChrisSLA> 110 9th graders and 15 faculty/staff.
<jsgotangco> because we have a programme manager here in Edubuntu he may work something out
<jsgotangco> we're pretty interested in these user case scenarios
<ChrisSLA> sweet.
<ChrisSLA> Well... fun part is we're also working with the SchoolNet folks. :)
<jsgotangco> if you got time, send an email to richard.weideman@canonical.com about the details
<jsgotangco> he
<jsgotangco> he's based in cape town so he'll be online later
<ChrisSLA> gotcha. I have to get through the next day to find out what the district wants us to do. Originally, they did not want us to go 1:1 w/ linux, they wanted to get us Mac machines. Now the money is drying up, and I'm pushing an edubuntu solution (which was always going to be our server, anyway.)
<jsgotangco> sweet
<jsgotangco> we do have laptop testing in ubuntu, but we dont have gateway models
<ChrisSLA> yah. Not so sweet to find out 45 days before the school opens that $150,000 of funds were suddenly not there. ;)
<ChrisSLA> What laptops do you most recommend? 
<jsgotangco> at the moment, we have on active testing, Toshiba, IBM and HP
<ChrisSLA> hm.
<ChrisSLA> none of them are Philly vendors, I think.
<jsgotangco> but we don't even bother with the modems unfortunately
<ChrisSLA> Really? Why not? Too problematic?
<jsgotangco> oh wel have Dell too
<ChrisSLA> Yeah? hm. I'll place a call tomorrow to Dell to get a quote. I'd like to use Gateway, just because their folks have been amazing at making the price-point as low as possible.
<jsgotangco> yeah i would understand that
<jsgotangco> nice features for the price btw on that model
<ChrisSLA> Yeah... and they are giving us a 30% discount.
<th1a> Hey ChrisSLA:  It's Tom Hoffman.
<ChrisSLA> We can get the laptops for $860 per -- $935 if we get more ram and DVD / CD-RW instead of just CD.
<ChrisSLA> Tom!
<ChrisSLA> How are you?
<jsgotangco> oh so you know each other =D
<th1a> Indeed.
<th1a> ChrisSLA is one of my original inspirations.
<ChrisSLA> yeah... for a bunch of years now, actually.
<jsgotangco> wow
<ChrisSLA> ... that should tell you how easy it is to inspire Tom. ;)
<th1a> He had his kids writing open source PHP apps for his old school like, six years ago.
<jsgotangco> that is sooo cool
<th1a> When I started, ChrisSLA's school was the model.
<jsgotangco> im not really an educator or involved in education, but its one of my interests
<ChrisSLA> And now I'm trying to figure out how to keep a 1:1 model alive.
<th1a> Indeed :-(
<ChrisSLA> And we hope to be the model again... We've got the faculty to make it happen.
<th1a> So you're shopping for cheap PC laptops?
<ChrisSLA> They've got the right ideas. When this funding cut came down, and I called a few and said, "Do you want whiteboards in classrooms and a few carts, or are you committed to 1:1?" They all knew the answer. And if that means learning Linux, so be it.
<ChrisSLA> Yeah.
<ChrisSLA> Gateway just came in with a great quote.
<th1a> btw ChrisSLA, I have followed up on our phone conversation, but mostly by working harder on the SIF side of things.
<th1a> Focusing on the Moodle integration story.
<ChrisSLA> Gotcha... any chance of moodle integration by Sept?
<ChrisSLA> And when are you coming to Philly -- August, right?
<th1a> Not a chance.
<ChrisSLA> rats.
<th1a> I can come when you want me to, but we may be able to accomplish more later in the year.
<ChrisSLA> We're *flying* with Moodle. Absolutely love it. The teachers are all ready to fly with it.
<th1a> Yeah, go nuts with that for a while.
<ChrisSLA> Gotcha -- so what are we going to be using SchoolTool for in Sept? Anything?
<th1a> It isn't necessary for my purposes, the way things are shaking out, and I don't think you need it then either.
<crimsun> ChrisSLA: sorry to interrupt, but are you using dapper's moodle?
<th1a> So... I'm thinking we'll just do the Moodle integration as soon as it is ready.
<ChrisSLA> gotcha... although, we can always install it and play with it and see how we can use it.
<th1a> Yes please.
<th1a> Actually, what I should be doing right now is finishing a long blog post about the sprint we had last week in NH, which was FANTASTIC.
<ChrisSLA> Crimsun -- nope. And we're not hosting it ourselves... it's running on our museum partner's server right now, until we open and get our own server. 
<crimsun> ChrisSLA: ok
<ChrisSLA> yeah, it seemed amazing.
<th1a> It looks like what I'll want to do is have a sprint in Philly in early '07.
<ChrisSLA> sweet.
<th1a> And what would be super cool would be bringing some of Jeff's kids up as well.
<ChrisSLA> Need somewhere to host it? ;)
<jsgotangco> jeff elkner?
<th1a> Yes.
<jsgotangco> wow small world
<th1a> Yes, open source in US education is still a small world.
<th1a> But on the verge of exploding.
<ChrisSLA> What is ready to go w/ SchoolTool for Sept?
<th1a> Calendar, demographics, attendance.  Grading has become problematic, but for personnel reasons, not technical.
<ChrisSLA> gotcha.
<th1a> So we can do your calendar if you just want that.
<th1a> To start.
<ChrisSLA> does attendance include scheduling?
<th1a> It doesn't create the schedule automatically.
<th1a> If that's what you mean.
<ChrisSLA> Right.
<ChrisSLA> Nope... just that it holds it.
<th1a> It has the class rosters, meeting times, etc.
<ChrisSLA> gotcha.
<ChrisSLA> Does the demographic info include the ability to email parents through SchoolTool?
<th1a> Not yet.
<ChrisSLA> <--- still hoping that SchoolTool can do everything we built at Beacon. :)
<th1a> What I've learned is that we just have to get some developers at your school for a week.
<th1a> Cut out the middleman (me).
<ChrisSLA> I sent you all the code (my ugly, crappy, hack-fest code) for Beacon's portal, right?
<ChrisSLA> heh... damn middlemen.
<th1a> I'll come along though ;-)
<th1a> I don't recall getting the actual code.
<ChrisSLA> We'll have you hang out in classes. ;)
<ChrisSLA> Would it be helpful to have it? I can send you a tar file.
<th1a> Actually, probably not.
<ChrisSLA> I think that's what you said last time. ;)
<th1a> Our architecture is so different.
<ChrisSLA> Yeah. I've got my techie learning python. :)
<th1a> Excellent.  I do need to get in touch with him... I must admit that when I think about emailing your people
<ChrisSLA> So back to the laptop issue -- modems are a no-go?
<th1a> I flash back to the summer before we re-opened Feinstein,
<th1a> when everyone was like "Yes, this technology is great but... CAN'T YOU SEE WE'RE TRYING TO OPEN A SCHOOL?"
<th1a> I've been a little gun-shy since...
<ChrisSLA> hee hee... nah. We're ready for it. The school goal is to be a 21st Century school.
<ChrisSLA> We need this stuff.
<th1a> Modems are generally problematic.
<th1a> WinModems, that is.
<th1a> The cheap ones.
<ChrisSLA> And that's what ships standard usually?
<th1a> Well, I haven't had to try getting a modem running in a long time.
<th1a> Do you have a link for the laptop model?
<ChrisSLA> This is the modem it ships w/ 
<ChrisSLA> Modem: Integrated V.92 56K modem 
<th1a> That's not very informative.
<ChrisSLA> heh.
<ChrisSLA> I know.
<th1a> What's the model number?
<th1a> Of the laptop?
<ChrisSLA> m255-E
<th1a> Dual core is good.  Mine is tres fast.
<ChrisSLA> are you running linux on it?
<th1a> Yes.
<th1a> So you'll get proper SMP on it with no problem.
<ChrisSLA> SMP?
<th1a> Multiprocessor.
<th1a> It'll use both cores.
<jsgotangco> yeah
<ChrisSLA> ah. gotcha.
<th1a> Which is a good thing ;-)
<ChrisSLA> indeed.
<jsgotangco> lunch brb
<ChrisSLA> Gawd. This really has been a long day.
<th1a> Well... I haven't really kept up with this, but it seems to me that it is likely to be a crapshoot finding a laptop that has a modem that works well under Linux.
<th1a> Because modems are so neglected at this point by most users.
<ChrisSLA> Finding out, 45 days before the school opens -- and after the book list has gone in, that the district isn't going to fund the 1:1 project.
<ChrisSLA> Yeah.
<th1a> So you found this out today?
<ChrisSLA> Not for poor kids though. Edubuntu should think about that.
<ChrisSLA> At noon. Yeah;
<jsgotangco> :/
<th1a> No... it isn't an Ubuntu thing...
<jsgotangco> linuxant might have something
<ChrisSLA> linuxant.com or org?
<th1a> I can't remember the exact technical reasons why WinModems are problematic.
<jsgotangco> http://www.linuxant.com/drivers/
<th1a> Anyhow, I think you might just have to buy the best laptop overall and hope for the best.
<th1a> With the modems.
<ChrisSLA> oy.
<jsgotangco> i think its with the patent itself of winmodems
<jsgotangco> brb
<th1a> Did you see this:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LaptopTestingTeam/
<ChrisSLA> Yeah... our model isn't on there.
<th1a> You need to get them to lend you one.
<ChrisSLA> It's 45 days until opening.
<th1a> Otherwise, you just won't know.
<ChrisSLA> *wham* *wham* *wham*
<th1a> I'm having flashbacks.
<ChrisSLA> you know... I've been banging my head against the wall all day with this.
<ChrisSLA> heh.
<th1a> I couldn't get the district tech coordinator to return my calls five years ago, except to tell me I had to order Dell, who WOULDN'T RETURN MY CALLS EITHER.
<ChrisSLA> heh... this does sound familiar.
<ChrisSLA> o.k. -- I'm off to sleep. have to go find $150,000 tomorrow. *argh*
<th1a> One problem is that geeks don't use Gateway, so there's not much about it.
<th1a> Online.
<ChrisSLA> I noticed that.
<ChrisSLA> I may try to get one in my hands and throw Edubuntu on it.
<th1a> That's what you'll have to do.
<ChrisSLA> yeah.
<th1a> Hang in there.
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jsgotangco> we'll find a way
<ChrisSLA> although, i don't have much choice... If it's not Edubuntu, it's Windows (EEEEEK) and we limp along.
<th1a> I'm reading linmodems.org
<th1a> The situation may be better than it was last time I worried about this problem.
<ChrisSLA> Thanks. I'll be back... unless Apple decides they don't want to lose $110,000 of business and come in w/ a quote I can afford.
<th1a> OK.
<th1a> ttyl.
<ChrisSLA> Tom -- I think it is... if the worst thing is the modems, it's not great, but it's doable.
<ChrisSLA> Night all.
<ChrisSLA> Thanks again.
<th1a> Bye.
* mode/#edubuntu [+o highvoltage]  by ChanServ
* mode/#edubuntu [-o highvoltage]  by highvoltage
<cbx33> mornin all
<mhz> evening, cbx33 
<cbx33> hi mhz
<mhz> well folkz, time for me to get into the envelope
<jsgotangco> hi
<mhz> see ya at meeting
<cbx33> hey jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> hey
<jsgotangco> you will have to install example-content though in edubuntu
<highvoltage> rodarvus: are you related to Jane Vita Novo?
<jsgotangco> highvoltage: hey!
<highvoltage> hey jsgotangco :)
<jsgotangco> highvoltage: hey dude youve been busy lately :/
<highvoltage> yeah. it's been tough. have at least another week and a half of intensiveness before things start getting just back to normal again.
<highvoltage> then about another month until things get easier :)
<jsgotangco> was thinking of doing some stuff on the website
<jsgotangco> adding case studies/experiences
<highvoltage> yesterday someone broke into my car and stole some of mystuff and car radio, which sux a bit.
<highvoltage> jsgotangco: excellent
<jsgotangco> ugghh
<highvoltage> jsgotangco: do you still have your user and password?
<jsgotangco> i think so
<jsgotangco> lol
<highvoltage> jsgotangco: there have been quite some requests to put up case studies by people from the channel and mailing list, so that would be widely appreciated by the edubuntu community if you could manage that
<jsgotangco> sure
<jsgotangco> i have time at night lately so
<jsgotangco> and ive been doing the loco team site of ourse in drupal
<ajmitch> hi jsgotangco, highvoltage 
<jsgotangco> hey
<highvoltage> hey ajmitch 
* HedgeMage peeks in
<RichEd> hello HedgeMage 
<HedgeMage> hi RichEd 
<HedgeMage> what's up?
<RichEd> getting into the swing of things ... still quiet here
<RichEd> did you get the mail about the install issue ?
<toosa> Hi ...
<jsgotangco> hey
<toosa> salamat po jsgotanco :)
<toosa> am i right ?
<toosa> hello RichEd ...
<RichEd> morning jsgotangco & toosa :)
<jsgotangco> RichEd: hey
<jsgotangco> toosa: well if you meant "thank you" that's correct
<toosa> in Indonesia is afternoon Rich :)
<RichEd> well a universal hi then :)
<toosa> jsgotanco : oh ic
<toosa> :)
<HedgeMage> RichEd: if I did, it was lost in he tons of backed up email I have ATM
<HedgeMage> RichEd: The army screwed up my sleeping schedule so I'm kind of useless this week.
<toosa> FYI until today, the attendance of our 2nd Edubuntu InstallFest & Seminar (29 July) has reach 30 persons
<HedgeMage> cool
<toosa> please wish us luck ...
<RichEd> HedgeMage: was a response to the user with the blank screen install problem ... not serious ... i have a note about the issue
<RichEd> btw good luck with getting your bio-rhythyms back on track
<RichEd> toosa ... all the luck & goodwill from Africa the home of Ubuntu :)
<toosa> thank you ...
<toosa> we plan for Big Edubuntu event in 2007 
<toosa> Called "Edubuntu Creattive Contest 2007"
<toosa> Creative
<jsgotangco> nice
<toosa> but it is still a concept, i have write it down complety yet
<toosa> completely
<toosa> is that anyone here has held an event like that ?
<HedgeMage> RichEd: ahh okay, I'll hopefully be caught up soon :)
<RichEd> (was sent as JaneW from her machine)
<HedgeMage> RichEd: ahh okay then I did see it
<HedgeMage> it got filed in my head as coming form her, sorry
<RichEd> hi rodarvus ... gotta minute to chat ?
* mode/#edubuntu [+o highvoltage]  by ChanServ
* mode/#edubuntu [-o highvoltage]  by highvoltage
<jsgotangco> :D
<RichEd> jsgotangco: when you have a moment, could you suggest via email what you would like to tackle first with Gina & ABS-CBN ?
<jsgotangco> sure but she's in NY and no email access (she's on retreat) so we'll have to wait for a while
<RichEd> yes (got that) but there are lots of good things in your list ... i'd like a bite size chunk we can tackle, and deliver well, and get concrete results to get the whole trust thing going
<jsgotangco> oh yeah
<jsgotangco> well AFI is pretty big i wont be surprised if 2 of those in the list will be tackled head on
<jsgotangco> but basically
<jsgotangco> we'll add FOSS education in the current Etv project
<RichEd> maybe you could rate the listed points ... can i pop you a quick mail with a "simple rating system" ?
<jsgotangco> so that when they use the computers provided they'll be able to use it as well
<jsgotangco> sure
<RichEd> will let you know when it is on the way. tx.
<jsgotangco> ok ill be leaving in half an hour if im not online ill just check later at home
<rodarvus> good morning
<rodarvus> RichEd, yes, sure
<rodarvus> (40 minutes ago I wasn't online, it was my DSL resetting, it seems)
<RichEd> rodarvus:  brb ... 3 mins
<RichEd> rodarvus: have you (1) worked with OLPC hardware (2) got access to OLPC hardware  
<rodarvus> yes, I got my OLPC hardware last week
<rodarvus> and tested it already
<RichEd> great :)
<rodarvus> it needs some external hardware to work
<RichEd> the thai people are suggesting that we get hold of the h/w ourselves, rather than take delivery  from them
<rodarvus> I used an old usb key I had here
<rodarvus> but it burnt
<jsgotangco> RichEd: the last point from Gina is entirely different. Support, yes, invite Mark S. yes, but Fund no..we can fund it ourselves
<rodarvus> so, I need to buy a new one (will go downtown this week, when I have some spare time)
<jsgotangco> RichEd: as for working for ABS, Gina signified interest in hiring me full time
<RichEd> SIPA pointed us to: http://wiki.laptop.org/index.php/Developers_Program
<RichEd> rodarvus:  is what you are using compliant ?
<jsgotangco> yes
<rodarvus> RichEd, yes, it is
<RichEd> great ... did you fund it, or is it a canonical purchase
<rodarvus> I fund it
<rodarvus> as I need to buy a new one, it would be nice if Canonical could purchase the new one for me, though :)
<rodarvus> brb in 3 minutes
<jsgotangco> RichEd: but we wont be able to talk more about it when she arrives back so if I ever get to work for them, most likely end of august early september
<RichEd> jsgotangco:  it will be nice to get it formalised ... for yourself & us ... i will hold thumbs for you.
<jsgotangco> RichEd: replied to your email
<RichEd> thanks.
<RichEd> rodarvus: how many people in Canonical + (Dev. + Test) do you think will need a OLPC device to help us deliver for Thai ?
<ogra> RichEd, one should suffice, as long as he can provide full remote access to the HW
<rodarvus> most people can test using Xen, we would probably only need one for ogra (if he wants one) and one on the datacenter
<rodarvus> ogra, right
<ogra> optimally we should have one setup in the DC and one at home at the person who does the main development (i.e. rodarvus )
<rodarvus> it isn't *very* useful remotely because you have to flash the device all the time during development
<ogra> heh ... sorry, lagging here :)
<RichEd> ogra would you not want to do any hands-on-testing ?
<rodarvus> but for casual development/test it is ok
<ogra> well, then you need access via a serial line
<ogra> from a second machine
<rodarvus> indeed
<ogra> RichEd, i'm not sure how much time i'll have left to play with this new stuff, my ltsp based specs will keep me quite busy
<ogra> (student control panel will take much time for all the new features)
<ogra> the ltspfs stuff as well ...
<cbx33> sorry guys I won't be able tp make the meeting today
<cbx33> will be travelling home
<jsgotangco> i dont think ill be around either i have dinner with a friend later
<RichEd> ogra & rodarvus : so would 2 be enough then one in DC and a new one for rodarvus ?
<rodarvus> I have one already
<rodarvus> (don't need another)
<rodarvus> we probably need one for the DC
<rodarvus> and one for ogra, if he wants
<rodarvus> keybuk showed interest too, he is quite skilled and can be helpful
<RichEd> rodarvus: "as I need to buy a new one, it would be nice if Canonical could purchase the new one for me, though :)" was this not a serious comment then ?
<rodarvus> RichEd, "a new one" == a new usb pen :)
<RichEd> cbx33: i have come across someone who is keen & willing to help with Bett (if we get the go ahead)
<rodarvus> I need to buy a usb pen to replace the one I lost last week
<ogra> keybuk++
<cbx33> RichEd: Excellent
<cbx33> who is that?
<rodarvus> the usb pen is the "hard disk" of the OLPC prototype
<RichEd> rodarvus: ahhhh ... well keep the invopice for possible expense claim then
<cbx33> I hope to finish up that document we talked about
<rodarvus> RichEd, nice, thanks
<RichEd> cbx33: will send the mail on to you later today.
<cbx33> fantastic
<cbx33> RichEd: we're getting ery close to deadline
<cbx33> with regards to getting the stand
<cbx33> I'm trying to get availability from them
<cbx33> but they havn't been returning my calls
<cbx33> I'll ring them again now
<RichEd> i will chat to jane face-to-face next week (wed) ... send availability info when you get it
<RichEd> rodarvus: "keybuk showed interest too, he is quite skilled and can be helpful" it would be useful to have another testing person no ? he may think of different things if he is not as close to the dev. as you ?
<rodarvus> RichEd, yes, he is also a good person to discuss development ideas, too
<cbx33> if you ever need other testing, I'm in?
<RichEd> okay so if i am asked to look at buying for canonical for this specific project, then 2 is a good start ?
<rodarvus> cbx33, (if you referring to testing OLPC stuff) you know you can apply for a developer board, right? (it won't cust you a penny ;) )
<rodarvus> RichEd, sure it is
<cbx33> rodarvus: how do I go about that?
<RichEd> tx
<cbx33> I'm very interested
<rodarvus> RichEd, I don't think the developer boards are currently sold - you probably have to talk to Jim Gettys to ask for them
<rodarvus> RichEd, cbx33 -> http://wiki.laptop.org/index.php/Developers_Program
<rodarvus> section #3 "How to apply"
<cbx33> excellent
<rodarvus> RichEd, I know mjg59 and janimo (Ubuntu developers - but not Canonical personnel) also have received OLPC prototypes already
<cbx33> would it be better for me to apply myself, or ask someone here to get one for me?
<rodarvus> thats Matthew Garrett and Jani Monoses (is his surname right?)
* mode/#edubuntu [+o highvoltage]  by ChanServ
<rodarvus> cbx33, please apply yourself
<RichEd> okay ... i will make a note of that
<rodarvus> RichEd, they usually hang on #ubuntu-devel
<cbx33> ok I've applied
* ogra slowly goes mad about iwj ...
<ogra> You fail to give references, in this case to RFC2222 (SASL), RFC1760
<ogra>   (S/Key) and RFC2444 (SASL OTP); instead you give a partial
<ogra>   description of what would happen when using the SKEY SASL method
<ogra>   with dbus.
<ogra> from the latest student control panel review .... *SIGH*
<cbx33> ogra: where is this from?
<rodarvus> don't get angry, it won't help :)
<rodarvus> didn't the two of you agreed that you would find someone else to review your specs?
<ogra> rodarvus, i dont ... i just wonder how these rfcs would be any relevant ... we use what dbus provides 
<ogra> rodarvus, i have to have it reviewed today ... 
<rodarvus> imho, you have to have it reviewed two weeks ago :P
<rodarvus> my humble opinion: just to your best with this spec, and ask someone else to review it
<ogra> iwj is willing to do so ... and i'm willing to get it done with him ... we agreed to communicate by ail to not heat up each other
<rodarvus> this is slowly becoming a pet peeve between iwj and you.
<rodarvus> its not productive
<cbx33> if my gisomount package has appeared on LP, how much longer till it's available in universe?
<ogra> rodarvus, i *had* it reviewed and approved from fabbione who wnated one minor grammar change
<ogra> after that change fabio wasnt available, so i asked iwj who was ...
<rodarvus> cbx33, it really depends on the priority of your package
<cbx33> ok
<cbx33> what does the appearance on LP signify? - that it has been approved for entry into the universe?
<rodarvus> packages on universe, with no reverse-build-depends usually take many hours to a few days to be available
<ogra> rodarvus, thast why i'm so upset ... apparently everyone else who reviewed it *before* the deadline was fine wih it
<rodarvus> cbx33, also, the build queue is a bit slow currently, as openoffice.org updates are being built for dapper (these take the best part of a day to be built)
<rodarvus> ogra, so, again, find someone else to review it.
<rodarvus> I suggest Keybuk or Kamion
<cbx33> rodarvus: ok
<cbx33> RichEd: have gotten through to the BETT planners
<cbx33> should be receiving the availability plan through shortly
<rodarvus> cbx33, but gisomount was not uploaded yet for edgy (at least not with this name)
<RichEd> cbx33:  thanks sending you the mail from John Levin now ...
<ogra> rodarvus, in the end mdz will have to approve it ... he's following the mail conversation (and iwj's comments) ...
<cbx33> rodarvus: ok cool
* cbx33 is new to all this waiting :p
<cbx33> thanks RichEd 
<rodarvus> cbx33, gisomount is sitting on NEW?
<cbx33> yes
<rodarvus> oh, here -> http://librarian.launchpad.net/3449923/gisomount_1.0.1-0ubuntu1_source.changes
<rodarvus> yeah, it can take even longer, then
<cbx33> why is that?
<rodarvus> it needs to be approved (moved from NEW into Accepted)
<cbx33> ah ok
<rodarvus> and only then it will be pushed into the buildds
<cbx33> I'm just curious
<cbx33> not desperate or anything
<cbx33> :p
<rodarvus> don't worry, its ok :)
<cbx33> this is my first universe upload :p - very exciting fo a little guy like me :p
<rodarvus> haha :)
<rodarvus> may this upload be the first of thousands!
<cbx33> i hope so
<rodarvus> cbx33, there are about 20 other packages sitting on NEW
<cbx33> yeh I know
<cbx33> I saw the queue the other day
<cbx33> some one in #ubuntu was looking for a pacakge that did just what gisomount does the other day :D
<rodarvus> (20 other source packages, I mean)
<cbx33> I was really impressed 
<cbx33> hmmmm
<cbx33> I wonder if I've discovered a bug
<cbx33> network proxy in gnome
<ajmitch> quite probably :)
<cbx33> if you set it to use a proxy script
<cbx33> but put an address in the exceptions on the next tab
<cbx33> it seems to ignore it?
<cbx33> can anyone confirm
* Yagisan-aWay is back ( Away 10 hours 33 mins 23 secs )
<Yagisan> spacey, ping
<Yagisan> cbx33, very belated pong
<spacey> hi
<spacey> whats up Yagisan
<spacey> Yagisan: my server went *poof* yesterday
<Yagisan> spacey, ok. I was pinging you to say your server has disappeared
<Yagisan> spacey, otherwise, I'm ok. I see red spots that don't exist, and according to speaclists my eyes are fine
<cbx33> so no real progress then?
<cbx33> ping RichEd 
<RichEd> 'lo
<cbx33> there are still a number of stands available
<cbx33> some decent sized ones too
<cbx33> have emailed you the chart
<Yagisan> spacey, what exactly went wrong with your server ?
<cbx33> havn't had your email yet?
<RichEd> great ... will there still be options available next week (re my meetings) i could call you on the phone to chat from Canonical offices after seeing Silbs.
<RichEd> sent the mail a while ago 12:42
<cbx33> RichEd: yes I'm thinking so
<cbx33> phoning would be cool
<cbx33> right I'm off guys
<cbx33> I could be back intime for meeting
<RichEd> bye for now
<RichEd> ogra ... how is the house move stuff going - winding up ?
<ogra> i'll pick up the truck in 1h  ...
<ogra> then i drive cross country tonight and have 4 days to load it ...
<RichEd> glad it is not me :)
<ogra> on sunday i was planning to be back and to unload ...
<ogra> well, its a lazy move ... i pay a lot more for the truck but have more time so i can load a bit every day :)
<RichEd> do you still want me to chair the meeting (in 33 mins)
<ogra> since i'm all aone thats best i guess ... i wont stress myself :)
<ogra> yes, i have to be at the car rental in 33 mins :)
<ogra> and given that i dont know this city very well, i might loose trck to find back here which might delay me a bit :P
<ogra> if all goes well i'm just 15mins late
<RichEd> ogra:  okay ... done : rodarvus i may need some help with meeting ... i'll lead but can you help keep things moving along ?
<rodarvus> sure
<rodarvus> I don't really think theres much to this specific meeting, anyway
<rodarvus> ogra, do you have any message you'd like us to pass?
<rodarvus> any status update from last week, etc
<ogra> not really, my work this week was nearly all ubuntu related
<rodarvus> yep, my case too
<ogra> i could tell you about awful codechanges in gnome-power-manager or that gnome-screensaver upstream included all our patches or that the screensaver locations have moved on the FS, but i doubt thats intresting
<ogra> my spec work will start next week if i have my lab set up again
<ogra> so there was not much for ltsp i have done apart from the SCP spec ...
<ogra> s/ltsp/edubuntu/
<rodarvus> *nods*
<rodarvus> I couldn't progress on automatic swap server as I expected to do this week
<rodarvus> as I received an unexpected request from mdz
<ogra> we have until spetember to get it done ... no hurry yet
<ogra> i 4 weeks we should start to worry though
<ogra> *in
<ogra> :)
<rodarvus> :D
<rodarvus> ========== Edubuntu meeting in ~ 25 minutes from now, on #ubuntu-meeting ==========
<rodarvus> ========== Edubuntu meeting in ~ 15 minutes from now, on #ubuntu-meeting ==========
<rodarvus> ========== Edubuntu meeting in ~ 10 minutes from now, on #ubuntu-meeting ==========
<hlabs> hi any one is here
<RichEd> yes ...
<hlabs> hi. is there an y good SIP softphone for edubuntu
<RichEd> we are about to go into a meeting. have you tried searching the ubuntu sites ?
<rodarvus> this is not an Edubuntu specific question, but there is Ekiga
<hlabs> yeah well ekiga came pre installed with edubuntu.
<hlabs> but its not working with other sip providers other then itsself
<rodarvus> ========== Edubuntu meeting in ~ 5 minutes from now, on #ubuntu-meeting ==========
<rodarvus> hlabs, I use Ekiga with more than one provider
<rodarvus> it works just fine
<hlabs> well i tried to connect to my voipbuster account via it. And it crashed on me.
<rodarvus> unfortunately there isn't much I (and I suppose we, on this channel) can do to help you further with this problem - I suggest you ask on #ekiga or on #ubuntu
<rodarvus> ========== Edubuntu meeting NOW, on #ubuntu-meeting ==========
<RichEd> rodarvus: beat me to the cut & paste :)
<rodarvus> :)
<rodarvus> haha
<cbx33> rodarvus, hi
<rodarvus> cbx33, hi there
<rodarvus> ogra, do you plan to be offline this/next week, during your move?
<mhz> re
<rodarvus> cbx33, so
<cbx33> rodarvus, so abotu the artwork
<rodarvus> I suppose Lisa is a Windows person
<rodarvus> Jane is, too
<cbx33> yes
<rodarvus> :)
<cbx33> thought she wants to be an ubuntu person
<ogra> rodarvus, nope ... but it might happen 
<cbx33> it's just that wine doesn't run dreamweaver mx 2004
<rodarvus> yeah, but realistically speaking, she'll only be productive (in near future) if she works on photoshop/adobe/etc
<rodarvus> Jane uses Windows on her day job
* mhz misses Macromedia sruff badly sometimes...but... if I can't share it with you, I won't use it :)
<cbx33> photoshop 6 runs fine under wine
<cbx33> I'm using it right now
<rodarvus> she is online all work day, from 11 AM UTC to 21 PM UTC (with one hour lunch)
<mhz> ogra: very clever. migrations should have a slow pace
<rodarvus> what do you think would work better - an #edubuntu-artwork channel (or even #edubuntu)
<rodarvus> or private msn/whatever conversation?
<cbx33> rodarvus, hmmm
<cbx33> I don;t know
<mhz> #edubuntu, imho
<cbx33> I think possibly let them introduce and chat in their own environment
<cbx33> msn etc?
<cbx33> then we can request them to move it over to IRC
<rodarvus> yeah, sure
<vb_coder> what is imho
<rodarvus> cbx33, but tell lisa to be prepared, Jane is not a native english speaker
<cbx33> in my humble opinion
<cbx33> ok
<rodarvus> and her current english level is far from perfect
<cbx33> heheh
<cbx33> that's cool
<rodarvus> :)
<rodarvus> ok, I propose we let the two of them talk
<mhz> rodarvus: I have been told many times during last 8 months or so, that non-english -speakers are either not encouraged, do not feel comfortable, or are just afraid of geting closer to projects because most of these projects are carried out in english
<rodarvus> (maybe tomorrow - let me just talk to Jane this evening)
<cbx33> I second that proposal :p
<rodarvus> so they can introduce themselves via msn
<cbx33> I too need to speak to lisa
<cbx33> :p
<rodarvus> and hopefully move to #edubuntu
<cbx33> indeed
<cbx33> I'm sure it'll be fine
<cbx33> btw I spoke too soon....
<rodarvus> mhz, yes, you're completely right.
<cbx33> wine and photoshop is b0rken under dapper
<cbx33> :(
<cbx33> big headaches for me
<mhz> rodarvus: it actually took me maybe 1 year to finally convinced 4 people to help me with edubuntu stuff
<mhz> and they have started to contrinbute now
<rodarvus> mhz, my suggestion is to start slowly
<rodarvus> create a #edubuntu-cl (or #ubuntu-cl) irc channel
<rodarvus> convince people to join this channel
<rodarvus> talk with each other, etc
<rodarvus> it has to start somewhere
<mhz> we have #edubuntu-es and #ubuntu-es
<cbx33> rodarvus, so are we thinking to remain here in #edubutnu for artowrk?
<rodarvus> yeah, why not
<cbx33> ok cool
<ogra> cbx33, where else :)
<mhz> rodarvus: we also have #ubuntu-cl but it is not aimed to provide tech support, but a way to help cordinate CL activities
<rodarvus> this way we can also participate on artwork discussions that are raised
<cbx33> yes
<rodarvus> mhz, so thats a great start already
<mhz> usually, #edubuntu-es and #ubuntu-es are for spanish speakers (many countires in the latter)
<mhz> yup
<mhz> rodarvus: however, it is teachers  and students I am more concerned about
<mhz> (because my #1 goal is edubuntu for latinamerican needs)
<mhz> so, if we can open/implement some ways/areas where these folks can see their work is available "officially" it may wake more people and motivate them to join too
<mhz> edubuntu default cd's are all english
<rodarvus> yes, I was thinking about this too
<rodarvus> this is something I'm sure RichEd and ogra are also interested (and one subject we are to talk on our meeting)
<mhz> many countries in LAm (latinamerica), the are where maybe 80% of spanish speakers are, dont have good internet access or even no access in some areas.
<rodarvus> but one action that comes to my mind is to make it possible for educators and students to add packages specific for their needs
<rodarvus> these packages would not be part of the official cd
<mhz> yup
<mhz> true
* RichEd agrees :  yes, we must include these srts of issues in the community plan
<cbx33> rodarvus, yes
<ogra> thats what universe is for
<rodarvus> but it is reasonably easy to create a edubuntu-cl "flavor" of edubuntu
<jsgotangco> you can create seeds too
<ogra> but we're missing edubuntu specific MOTUS
<cbx33> ogra, I'm working on it
<rodarvus> so, you can have a cd image specific for spanish users
<jsgotangco> seeds
<rodarvus> and even press this cdimage, distribute to schools, etc
<rodarvus> plenty of opportunities there
<mhz> so, very slowly, I have been trying to get people to help me (even teach me) to make and edubuntu for spanish speakers (spanish default)
<rodarvus> we have most (all?) of the technical infrastructure to do this available in LaunchPad
<rodarvus> we just have to coordinate the effort
<ogra> rodarvus, you know how much extra work that will produce ? 
<rodarvus> and make sure there is real interest from Chilean people on the project
<ogra> you will need to test the 4 install flavors for every know etc
<ogra> *knot
<rodarvus> ogra, I'm not proposing for us to do that
* mhz sees there are so many needs that it gets difficult sometimes to know how to get organized and make priorities
<rodarvus> I'm proposing for Chilean people to create a derivative distribution, based on Edubuntu
<rodarvus> this distribution would be run by them
<rodarvus> of course, with feedback and support from official Edubuntu
<RichEd> mhz: we need to find a method to prioritise requriements
<ogra> rodarvus, also no external people have access to the cd build infrastructure ... so that *must* be done by canonical people
<mhz> rodarvus: well, my idea was not for chile, but LAm people
<RichEd> some kind of effort / reward / impact rating that is impartial
<rodarvus> mhz, yeah, s/chile/latin america/ as you wish :)
<mhz> rodarvus: :D
<rodarvus> ogra, how do distributions such as Baltix generate their cd images?
<mhz> rodarvus: and ogra's point is very important... access, extra work, etc
<rodarvus> I'm pretty sure one of the targets of sabdfl is to make it *very* easy for people to create derivative distributions
<jsgotangco> its been a target since breezy :/
<cbx33> rodarvus, I'm very interested in this 
<ogra> rodarvus, no idea ...
<jsgotangco> its a very old target...
<mhz> RichEd: yeah, i admit that is a difficult task for my...set priorities...in developing countries, it feel smore difficult to  do so
* cbx33 visualises an ODC
<cbx33> Open Data Center
<ogra> rodarvus, but i suspect they have their own build servers
<RichEd> sorry all - bad timing but i have to go out for 30 mins ...
<RichEd> back as soon as i can
<cbx33> RichEd, did you get my mail?
<ogra> rodarvus, baltix has neither seeds nor metapackage
<ogra> s
<RichEd> cbx33: yep
* mhz considers that the more we split things we may get risks we can't control later
<rodarvus> I believe this "open data center" can become a reality, given time, political and technical will, and a good deal of effort from interested parts
<cbx33> mhz, in what way?
<cbx33> rodarvus, count me in
<cbx33> I think ti's a wonderful idea
<cbx33> I now declare the ODC ..... well.....open !!! ;)
* jsgotangco will stop thinking ubuntu for now and just play new super mario bros.
<cbx33> w000t
<mhz> cbx33: it is very possible to split things (any ways) it just requires very clever undersanding of how things can be managed in order not to lose community focus
<cbx33> mhz, oh yeh totally
<cbx33> but it is theoretically possible
<ogra> rodarvus, yes, its called launchpad :)
<jsgotangco> rodarvus: launchpad is supposed to do that
<ogra> its just far from being where it shall be at some point
<rodarvus> ogra, jsgotangco: I'm talking about the hardware for this :)
<jsgotangco> rodarvus: "personal" derivative distros are part of launchpad's grand goals
<rodarvus> I'm aware that LP is already able to deal with multiple distros :)
<jsgotangco> we're tried this before on TheOpenCD with orchard
<ogra> rodarvus, LP is supposed to be the UI for it
<ogra> (for accessible HW)
<mhz> ogra: yup, true, "far". I was even asked "don't we have a LP-es ?"
<mhz> spanish speakers feel they are the 2nd widest spoken language on earth
<mhz> so they get kind of 'demanding" :D
<ogra> i dounbt they are the second :)
<mhz> Technically, Spain is doing lots on FLOSS development
<ogra> *doubt even
<mhz> but LAm people can become a very huge community
<ogra> there are ~5 chinese dialects before every other ang :)
<ogra> *lang
<mhz> ogra: the point is spanish speakers all speak 99% same language
<mhz> not dialects
<ogra> yup ...
* jsgotangco starts stirring up the asians and says "hey we own more than half of the earth at the moment"
<ogra> heh
<cbx33> we're getting off point
<jsgotangco> i was kidding
<cbx33> plus mhz did say "spanish speakers feel....."
<mhz> even with the diff in vocabulary we have with Spain, we all understand 99% same things
<mhz> cbx33: oh yeah
<mhz> ;)
* jsgotangco goes back to frag some kids online
<ogra> lol
<mhz> jsgotangco: ;D
<mhz> my point was simpler... having -es as default, will help many, many schools in Nicaragua, Bolivia, Peru, El Salvador, etc
<mhz> many schools with no internet
<mhz> maybe one possible simple solution would be
<ogra> -es will be the first langpack i re add to the install CD, be sure 
<ogra> its on the liveCD though
<mhz> to have a CD language pack shipped along with the install CD
<ogra> -es, -fr, -de and -en are on the live CD which had more space
<mhz> ogra: yeah, but I assume you understand my point is LTSP ;)
<mhz> That is why I do not own a much powerfull cmputer than this thin laptop (500 MHz and 256 MB)
<ogra> we're hijacked !! http://www.edubuntu.org/
<ogra> :)
<mhz> if i had a better pc, Id proably not care much about performance on lighter computers ;)
<ogra> mhz, yes i understand
<cbx33> eee-gad
<cbx33> how did that happen?
<ogra> mhz, but the install CD is significantly bigger 
<ogra> cbx33, DC weirdness ...
<ogra> will be soved soon ...
<mhz> yup, but lot more possible to install and try than booting workstations with 64 MB and 400 MHz
<mhz> they just can't use LiveCd
<ogra> thats one of the reasons we ship the install CD
<mhz> and I am sure, a LAm plan of adoption of Edubuntu can be easier if I ask for 1 'server' per school than 10 good clients
<mhz> there are some good orgs working in LAm in IT-for-Education subjects, but they all know and promote M$
<mhz> there might be 1 or 2 that are more open to FLOSS
<mhz> (recent 2 years maybe)
<mhz> so, I have been trying to contact them, encourage them to try Edubuntu and FLOSS in general (social benefits, economics, etc arguments)
<jsgotangco> this is no different in my area either :P
<jsgotangco> we have schools with no servers even
<mhz> true
<mhz> many countries around the world have similar issues
<jsgotangco> i am not saying this is a bad thing (planning for such)
<jsgotangco> but i dont think we have enough resources do you tihnk?
* mhz does not even want to start talking about food and water issues...or he' could be talking all week :D
<mhz> jsgotangco: we dont have many resources
<mhz> but we have some good amount of knowledge and spirit
<mhz> this knowledge also allows us to have vision
<jsgotangco> true but not being pessimistic but good luck
* jsgotangco goes downstairs for supper
<ogra> mhz, i'd suggest talking to the baltix people 
<mhz> and with that, yes!, we can plan some things
<mhz> ogra: why?
<bddebian> Hello
<ogra> mhz, they build a localized derivative
<mhz> yup
<cbx33> ogra, I have a recommendation from lisa :D
<ogra> yay
<ogra> shoot
<cbx33> she's wholly onboard with redesigning...._MOST_ things
<ogra> cool
* cbx33 has just had his ear bitten off
<cbx33> phew.....
<cbx33> I think we're onto a winner here ogra :D
<cbx33> rodarvus, Lisa is looking forward to meeting your other half :p
<rodarvus> cbx33, nice, I've talked with Jane too
<cbx33> excellent
<rodarvus> which TZ is Lisa?
<cbx33> GMT
<ogra> cbx33, just tell her to be careful about Viper550 :)
<cbx33> I will
<rodarvus> and what time is she usually online?
<cbx33> ogra, anything in particular?
<ogra> he's very enthusiastic, but his artwork makes me scream all the time :)
<cbx33> mainly evenings GMT
<cbx33> ogra, :D
<rodarvus> good, so afternoons our time
<ogra> and he always behaves as if it would have been approved by anyone
<rodarvus> Jane is online on the afternoons
<jsgotangco> lol
<cbx33> excellent
<jsgotangco> ogra: USLAB
<ogra> which usually isnt the case
<rodarvus> ogra, artists are usually like this
<rodarvus> hard to deal with
<cbx33> hehe
<cbx33> lisa is totally the opposite
<ogra> rodarvus, well, the others on the art-ml arent :)
<jsgotangco> yes
<jsgotangco> they are very nice people
<cbx33> as I said before she designed the first wallpaper because she thought no one would want it :p
<rodarvus> "how CAN YOU not like my PIECE OF ART, you scum bag?"
<cbx33> rodarvus, wow...are you like...a real artist ?
<rodarvus> I'm married to one :P
<ajmitch> heh
<ogra> heh
<cbx33> heheh
<rodarvus> (she's sane, though ;) )
<rodarvus> its just that we happen to have a lot of friends that are not soooo sane :)
<cbx33> ogra, what is our deadline for artwork?
<ogra> the release schedule should have one
<cbx33> ok
<ogra> else its the artwork team you need to ask
<rodarvus> Lisa <-> Jane are connected via MSN, already
<cbx33> and talking about dogs :p
<rodarvus> I'll try to help Jane setting her irc client later today, when I have some free time
<rodarvus> and ask her to join #edubuntu
<jsgotangco> great
* jsgotangco will just go offline now and be a kid again
<cbx33> go for it
<jsgotangco> mega mushroom!
<rodarvus>  i386 build of openoffice.org 2.0.3-3ubuntu3 in ubuntu edgy
<rodarvus> 	Requested 2006-07-26 07:00:38 BRT in pocket RELEASE
<rodarvus> 	Building on vernadsky
<rodarvus> eu ainda mato um.
<ogra> ?
<rodarvus> pt_BR
<ogra> i guessed :)
<rodarvus> openoffice.org is building again
<rodarvus> and holding aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaall other builds on i386
<rodarvus> this is really, really, really sad.
<rodarvus> this is seriously holding me from being productive
<cbx33> :S
<cbx33> dang it 
<cbx33> we need a second data center :p
<RichEd> hi ... i'm back
<cbx33> hey RichEd 
<ogra> rodarvus, get used to it ...
<RichEd> did i miss any useful community conclusions or points for action ? languages etc.
<ogra> rodarvus, write a book alongside or something :)
<rodarvus> :/
<cbx33> RichEd, got a sec?
<RichEd> a few :)
<mhz> rodarvus: where are you from?
<rodarvus> mhz, Brazil
<rodarvus> (Curitiba, PR, more specifically)
<mhz> rodarvus: oh, last year there was a very important event regarding FLOSS for Education, organized by UNESCO ? 
* mhz may have terrible memory thoug
<rodarvus> right, indeed
<rodarvus> unfortunately, I was not involved with Edubuntu at that time
<rodarvus> and thus, was not involved in this event :/
* mhz was but could not afford to get there
<mhz> guys: I got an email from a teacher. She using AMD version and she complains she can't turn the machine off :(
<mhz> http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/18942
<ogra> ooof .... this truck is huuuge ... 
* ogra feels edgy
<RichEd> that's all for me for today ... g'night all
<bddebian> ogra: :)
<ogra> ciao RichEd 
<neurogeek> mhz, ping
<mhz> neurogeek: pong
<mhz> neurogeek: ?
<mhz> neurogeek: ping
<cbx33> http://www.progbox.co.uk/attempt1.mp3
<jacques_b> hi there ! 
<jacques_b> I've done some reading on edubuntu web site and I am wondering if there is any french translation for edubuntu ?
<Burgwork> jacques_b, absolutely
<arkan0x> jacques_b, on the boot , press f2
<Burgwork> we should probably fix the website
<jacques_b> I meant french localisation team ...
<arkan0x> sorry 
<arkan0x> :p
<jacques_b>  and how to contact them
<sbartleylinux> We are experiencing an issue with keyboard use on client boot.  We are using Ubuntu Dapper and two types of thin clients and experiencing the symptom on both types.  Basically, the client boots fine.  Gets a login but the user can not type.
<sbartleylinux> The mouse works but the keyboard does not.
<sbartleylinux> Our workaround has been to use the mouse to click the Options button and choose Disconnect.  This brings up a new login and the keyboard then works.
<sbartleylinux> Anyone experiencing anything like this?
<sbartleylinux> We are also seeing a separate issue with the Gnome launch rectangle once a user logs in while the desktop is loading.  On some clients, that display screen is very garbled until the actual desktop is up.  
<ogra> sbartleylinux, where do you klick "disconnect" ? there is no such button in ldm
<ogra> the splash garbling is done by graphics cards that dont support 24bit ... force 16bit ...
<sbartleylinux> k.
<sbartleylinux> the "disconnect" may not be the right word.  it is in the options menu on the client login screen but I dont have it in front of me to look at the exact option.  brb I will go look at it.
<ogra> there are no options either 
<ogra> ldm has nothing but a shutdown button ... no menus or other options
<ogra> are yu sure you use ubuntu ltsp ?  :)
<sbartleylinux> ogra: hmmmm.  It is Ubuntu LTSP w/ Dapper and we do indeed have Options and it has Disconnect.
<sbartleylinux> ogra: this is ubuntu desktop with custom kick, not edubuntu.
<sbartleylinux> gotta run out for a bit.  will check back in about an hour.  thx.
<ogra> sbartleylinux, doesnt matter 
<ogra> you dont use ldm apparently
<ogra> if you use gdm (the only dm i know with a disconnect button) then you are using xdmcp which is not supported by ubuntu
<mhz> sbartleylinux: ogra's right
* mhz has just chatted with a friend using xdmcp
<neoxan> hi Seveas 
* mode/#edubuntu [+o Seveas]  by ChanServ
* mode/#edubuntu [+b *!*@unaffiliated/neoxan]  by Seveas
* mode/#edubuntu [-o Seveas]  by ChanServ
<Castor_Troy> Hallo
<Burgwork> hey Castor_Troy 
<sbartleylinux> ok. back.
<sbartleylinux> ogra: true. sorry. forgot about not using ldm.  We had to switch to xdmcp because the ssh sessions were just too slow.
<sbartleylinux> ogra: so, if xdmcp is unsupported and ssh is too slow, any suggestions on where to go?
<ogra> nah, here is fine, i just cant help you with that specific keyboard problem ... imply because i have no xdmcp machines
<ogra> *simply
<sbartleylinux> k.
<rodarvus> ogra, did you noticed the changes on gtk2-themes?
<ogra> rodarvus, yes, grumble 
<ogra> seb128 had promised me at least a provides for the clearlooks engine so  dont need to change ldm
<ogra> but well ...
<rodarvus> *nods*
<rodarvus> edubuntu-desktop needs updating
<ogra> that too
<ogra> are they built already ?
<rodarvus> yep, published too
<rodarvus> we can/should add a versioned build-depends on current gtk2-themes, if at all possible
<ogra> i usually dont care about -desktop between the milestones ...
<rodarvus> do I need to do something besides updtating *-desktop && ./update ?
<ogra> well, be very very careful about the server seed
<ogra> but else, no ...
<ogra> just make sure there are no weird things added to the -desktop seed like ubuntu-artwork ...
<rodarvus> I'm not touching any seeds
<ogra> you need to
<rodarvus> seeds are ok, apparently
* rodarvus double checks
<ogra> the metapackages are generated from them
<rodarvus> rodarvus@wakko:~/canonical/bzr/ubuntu.edgy$ grep engines *
<rodarvus> desktop: * gtk2-engines                 # DanielHolbach (gtk2-engines were merged into one package)
<rodarvus> rodarvus@wakko:~/canonical/bzr/ubuntu.edgy$
<ogra> so you need to merge the ubuntu seed to get the change from them
<rodarvus> dholbach updated it already, it seems
<ogra> oh, he never does that ... he usually forgets us :)
<rodarvus> :D
<ogra> let me pull the recent seeds ...
<ogra> short before a new milestone there is often a lot of seed shuffling anyway, so its not really urgent to get that done 
<ogra> revno: 502
<ogra> committer: Colin Watson <colin.watson@canonical.com>
<ogra> aha
<ogra> colin merged :)
<ogra> looks fine ... just run update ... in case your DEBEMAIL isnt set, edit debian/changelog ...
<ogra> rodarvus, ^^
<rodarvus> ogra, actually, the real reason I'm doing that is to learn more about seeds and edubuntu-desktop
<ogra> yep
<rodarvus> I have a spec related to this, you know ;)
<ogra> really ? 
<ogra> why did that get specced ? that belongs to the normal work 
<rodarvus> yes, edubuntu-xfce-desktop
<ogra> ah, right :)
<ogra> i thought a spec about: rodarvus has to learn to handle seeds and metapackages
<rodarvus> hahaha
<rodarvus> no :D
<ogra> i was already requesting mdz's sanity :)
#edubuntu 2006-07-27
<LaserJock> jsgotangco!
<jsgotangco> hey
<LaserJock> dude, I'm running Dapper on my iMac right now!
<jsgotangco> im surprised...
<jsgotangco> i cannot relate to it since i dont have a mac nor have access to one
* jsgotangco has never used a mac in his entire life
<crimsun> AIGLX + Xfce == nice
<jsgotangco> really?
<crimsun> argh, ECHANNEL
<LaserJock> jsgotangco: well, this is an intel mac so it really is cool
<jsgotangco> oohhhh
<jsgotangco> so it works
<LaserJock> yeah
<LaserJock> the booting is a bit strange
<LaserJock> but it works
<jsgotangco> interesting
* jsgotangco would like to have one in the future if possible
<bddebian> Howdy
<bddebian> Hi jsgotangco
<jsgotangco> hi
<hlabs> one question i have
<hlabs> can yahoo messenger the one with the voice stuff work with edubuntu
<jsgotangco> hmmm
<mhz> jsgotangco: what?
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco: you on the marketing list?
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia: i think i left the marketing list
<Burgundavia> it is mostly useless, but you might want to join in the "unified branding" thing john baer just posted
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia: thanks i'll look into it, i have very little interest in unified branding btw, i was just looking at the logos of teams yesterday and thought it would be neat to have some kind of locoteam intramurals
<hlabs> listen does edubuntu work with yahoo messenger. 
<Burgundavia> hlabs: yep, via gaim
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco: this would be unified branding across Edu/U/K/Xubuntu
<jsgotangco> hlabs: the voice stuff doesn't work
<jsgotangco> hlabs: yahoo isnt developing an improved client at all
<hlabs> is there any IM software that works with voice in edu
<jsgotangco> hlabs: gizmo, skype, ekiga to name a few
<jsgotangco> (ekiga is a softphone btw)
<hlabs> yeah. But on ekiga its not letting me setup any other sip accoutns. Keep son crashing
<Burgundavia> ekiga is good
* mhz still has not been able to make ekiga work
<mhz> (well, it does run but I can't seem to talk to the other person :) )
<jsgotangco> its probably your network, not ekiga
<hlabs> listen i think amsn has the web cam option on it
<jsgotangco> ekiga is just a softphone
<mhz> jsgotangco: yeah
<hlabs> but it tells me that it cant listen as im behind a firewall
<hlabs> whats up with that
<mhz> jsgotangco: however, same network used to work just fine with Gnome-meeting
<mhz> in other words, breezy -> I could talk
<mhz> dapper -> nope
<hlabs> i gotta logitech webcam you know how i can set it up
<jjjjjjj> is there a way to turn on the keypad on a mac keyboard?
<jjjjjjj> got ubuntu running on a mac G4 700Mhz.
<jjjjjjj> you know the sad thing is that if I asked this question in a windows chat room I'd have at least 3 replies.
<jjjjjjj> 1234567890  but no hard feelings... I seem to have somehow stumbled onto the answer.  "Seek and Ye Shall Find" - Jesus   0987654321
<mhz> what was that?
<mhz> why people usually stop by this channel thinking it is Yet Another Ubuntu technical support channel ?
<crimsun> mhz: it has "ubuntu" in the channel string
<bimberi> EDucate people about UBUNTU perhaps ;)
<LaserJOck> becuase it is #edubuntu and not #edubuntu-devel
<mhz> oh, well, i hope they don't leave their negative vibrations once they log off, pissed off
<crimsun> mhz: some people expect others to spoonfeed them first.
<mhz> spoonfeed?
<mhz> oooh
<mhz> I get it!
<mhz> feed them with a spoon
<mhz> like babies
<mhz> duh!
<crimsun> (right)
<bimberi> you got it!
<mhz> .oO( these english speakers are crazy)
<bimberi> do nothing for yourself, have it all served up to you
<mhz> yup
<crimsun> sorry, I should have used something less locale-specific
<mhz> crimsun: it is ok, I learn new stuff
<mhz> crimsun: however, it sounded like this http://mhz.homelinux.org/elwiki/FunPictures/CustomerService?highlight=%28pictures%29
<mhz> (the 2nd part)
<crimsun> man, I haven't read UF in ages
<crimsun> I survived my undergrad days solely on UF
* mhz gets UF in his inbox every day
<mhz> lol
<mhz> yeah, they are COOL
<mhz> crimsun: only UF? no Macarroni and Cheese?
<crimsun> I still have the suse dust puppy sticker
<mhz> nah!? really?
<mhz> eeek
<crimsun> yeah, it's half-worn, but it's on a textbook :)
<LaserJock> crimsun: you ever read http://www.phdcomics.com/comics.php
<crimsun> oh yeah, LJ
<crimsun> that's classic stuff
<crimsun> mhz: nope, haven't read the latter
<LaserJock> we like it in our lab
<mhz> crimsun: hehehe, I meant, "only survived reading UF? did not eat Macarroni and Cheese?
<LaserJock> Ramen
<crimsun> mhz: oh, yeah, did that and ramen, too, before my junior year
<mhz> nice, it seems to happen in many countries, just like that :)
<Amaranth> i don't even do mac and cheese
<Amaranth> ramen and cereal
<LaserJock> me too
<LaserJock> never licked mac and chesse
<crimsun> not even once? ;)
<LaserJock> liked
<LaserJock> and no
<crimsun> yeah, I was playing off your typo
<mhz> Any of you ever read this comic?
<mhz> http://mhz.homelinux.org/somework/IntroMoinMoin1?action=SlideShow&n=5
<mhz> Term Unit X
<crimsun> haven't
<mhz> it is pretty cool comic
<mhz> very well drawn, great mature story
* mode/#edubuntu [+o highvoltage]  by ChanServ
<highvoltage> Znarl++
<highvoltage> > When the Edubuntu wiki <http://wiki.edubuntu.org> is accessed, the user
<highvoltage> > is warned that the certificate belongs to wiki.ubuntu.com.
<highvoltage> > Is there any way that this could be fixed?
<highvoltage> Done.
<highvoltage> --
<highvoltage> Karl Tilbury
<highvoltage> :)
<Burgundavia> hey highvoltage
<highvoltage> hey Burgundavia!
<highvoltage> Burgundavia: how are things?
<Burgundavia> not bad
<highvoltage> seems like pygi just got up too :)
* pygi nods :)
<pygi> morning all :)
<highvoltage> mornign pygi 
<mhz> highvoltage: cool!
<highvoltage> morning mhz 
<mhz> hey
<jsgotangco> hey ogra
<cbx33> mornin peeps
* mode/#edubuntu [+o highvoltage]  by ChanServ
<RichEd> jello :)
<Burgundavia> 'ello RichEd
<RichEd> Burgundavia:  just checking ... you in Canada ? (according to JaneW)
<Burgundavia> no, I live in Soviet Canuckistan ;)
<RichEd> ah ... well at least that's further away from that annoying george fellow ;)
<Burgundavia> thankfully, he is on the otherside of the continent
<RichEd> have you got an "about page" anywhere ? to save me asking you annoying questions ...
<Burgundavia> not a single one
<Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CoreyBurger
<Burgundavia> that links to various other places, including Wikipedia
<Amaranth> "Python 2.4 allocated small objects in 256K-sized arenas, but never freed arenas. With this patch, Python will free arenas when they're empty. The net effect is that on some platforms, when you allocate many objects, Python's memory usage may actually drop when you delete them, and the memory may be returned to the operating system."
<Amaranth> Kick. Ass.
<RichEd> thanks :)
<Burgundavia> RichEd: googling me is always informative as well
<Burgundavia> hmm, appears you have no google juice RichEd
<RichEd> Burgundavia: googling is dangerous for me ... i end up opening eleventy seven windows ... looking for a quick coffee read today ... not a research project ;)
<RichEd> (especially now that i have "discovered" firefox and the tabs ... neat :) ... but even more open pages now)
<mhz> RichEd: hi there... There is going to be the annual Linux Encounter (not sure if that is correct into english) in Chile, in November. Any chances you can come and give a talk? I am preparing some material for that event. However, if we're gonna have some kind of Edubuntu market insertion plan for LAm, you would the one to give the impression of "we're serious about it ":D
<RichEd> mhz: thanks for the heads up ... sounds like an opportunity ... but all (good) things revolve around the meetings next week with the powers that be.
<mhz> yeah! Google is like wikipedia... I always endup reading much more than expected about other stuff
<RichEd> mhz: pop me an email, with background ... i'd sure like to come ... will need to build a quick case for approval
<mhz> okis
<RichEd> but if we can combine the encounter request with a m"eet mhz and draw up a LAm snapshot & plan for next 12 months suggestion" ... would make sense (to me)
<mhz> RichEd: even greater!
<RichEd> pre-requisite homework:  i would need to ask you then to draw up a summary of the entire South American continent to give me a background on that region ... and then make you the "South American Champion for Ubuntu & Edubuntu)
<RichEd> so i can justify that i am building a regional support base for Education Programme ... and saving time & effort & money in future
<RichEd> would that make sense (it would allow me to give you much more support) ?
<mhz> RichEd: I have just been invited to a kind of "seminar" for people from 19 to 29 years old. The seminar is to motivate them and talk about 'enterpreneouring' (?), FLOSS vision and Sustainable Development, How and Why Linux has become succesfull, and many other things. I'll have a meeting anut it hopefully on Friday, so I'll tell you afterwards what they want me for. So far, I know they'll have 50 pcs available. /me will try to have at least 5 with Edubuntu 
<mhz> :D
<mhz> anut =about
<RichEd> mhz: going to open a pvt window for discussion with you ... give me 5 mins to clear up something first
<mhz> RichEd: wow! Thanks for that vote of confidence!! Sure, I can do that homework, happily
* mhz will wash his face then...it is almost 3 am here :D..but these kind of things are lot better to disscuss when they arise.
<RichEd> (mhz: it's all a cunning plan to offload work from my list onto yours ... but hey ... it should be good for all of us : you & me & Edubuntu & LAm)
<mhz> hehehe
<jsgotangco> wazzup
<RichEd> 'lo jsgotangco :)
<jsgotangco> hey champ
<jsgotangco> what's cookin
<RichEd> toast (soon) busy with coffee now ;)
<mhz> jsgotangco: re 10 inches laptops for a cheap price/ I did find the specs, thx for the hints. I just did not find them for cheap price. I want them for teachers and students, so for those prices, it is not a good deal. :D
<jsgotangco> well that's the price you pay for miniaturization
<mhz> yeah, i know.
<mhz> Chile wont be part of OLPC (still dont know why...nobody understands it), so I decided to look up for other alternatives.
<mhz> more expensive, but affordable
<jsgotangco> so is my home country
<mhz> IIRC, only Argentina and Brazil have requested units
<mhz> jsgotangco: do you know your Gov. reasons?
<jsgotangco> we have more problems here like lack of classrooms and teachers so having computers for each student is not really an appealing problem to solve
<jsgotangco> private foundations have been more successful in donations and such and the Education Media initiative is wildly successful
<jsgotangco> far flung areas have no access to computers though but interestingly, the penetration rate of mobile phones is suprisingly high :)
<jsgotangco> we are a natural-disater prone country and schools also serve as evacuation centers
<jsgotangco> (public schools that is)
<jsgotangco> edubuntu as a server solution is not really an appealing solution here either as we can't even achieve a 1:1 ratio
<jsgotangco> the public school in my hometown for example has around a thousand students but only has 10 computers
<jsgotangco> one of those computers was my old P3
<jsgotangco> come to think of it, im pretty sure i was one of the first people being connected online in my place :)
<jsgotangco> s/first people/first group of people
<mhz> jsgotangco: gee
<jsgotangco> there are certain regions here that are very very poor
<jsgotangco> remember we are more than 7,000 islands spread from north to south
<jsgotangco> our total coastline combined is bigger than that of the united states
<mhz> jsgotangco: the more I hear/read about this, the more I am convinced it is each person's responsibility to do something to change it (if we realize this is bad, we must do something to solve it).
<jsgotangco> we are very very spread out
<mhz> yeah, true
<jsgotangco> socially and economically
<RichEd> ogra are you here or busy driving a truck around somewhere ;)
<jsgotangco> so an initiative may only benefit a certain region for it to be successful first
<mhz> In Chile we are not that spread but yeah, we are a long thin country with many diff geographical areas and weather, so it is not easy to coordinate.
<jsgotangco> education here, is like not even on the top 10 priorities of the national budget
<jsgotangco> because almost half of the national budget goes into debt servicing
* mhz sighs
<jsgotangco> the stories of public school teachers going abroad to become domestic help for other countries is too common already
<RichEd> jsgotangco: sounds like you need bono to come sing about debt relief when he is finished in africa !
<jsgotangco> sure 
<jsgotangco> 30 years ago, we could have been a superpower in the region if the nuclear program went into fruit
<mhz> jsgotangco: we, in LAm are told we have  huge international debt (money) with Europe and USA...and it is fun.. Spanish and Portuguese people took (and still take) most of our many resources, for free, but we owe them :)
<jsgotangco> i guess we can all blame the spanish of the middle ages heh
<mhz> hehehehe
<cbx33> morning mhz jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> hi
<jsgotangco> we're like under spanish rule for 600+ years
<mhz> well, it was our fault too, we let that happen somehow
<mhz> cbx33: hi there. how's family?
<cbx33> yeh doing good
<mhz> nice
<cbx33> you?
<mhz> me?
<cbx33> how are you doing?
<mhz> I am fine...just can't sleep yet. My daughter is happily sleeping and my ex-wife (but we live toghether) is also sleeping and healthy...so I can't complain
<mhz> Guys, I am trying to modify topic of #ubuntu-meeting
<mhz> Does that have to be via fridge 1st?
<mhz> if so, can someone do it? (or it's anyone's task)
<mhz> I wanna add '27 Jul 15:00 UTC: Edubuntu Handbook'
<mhz> jsgotangco: ?
<mhz> RichEd: ping
<RichEd> pong
<RichEd> wrapped my mail chores ... can i get a coffee & join you in pvt ?
<mhz> oh, for a moment I thought I had been disconnected
<mhz> RichEd: sure, 3 minutes?
<RichEd> and counting
<mhz> heheh
<mhz> Guys, I am trying to modify topic of #ubuntu-meeting
<mhz> Does that have to be via fridge 1st?
<mhz> I wanna add '27 Jul 15:00 UTC: Edubuntu Handbook'
<pygi> mhz, isnt that already on the fridge?
<mhz> pygi: nope
<mhz> that is why I am trying to add it
<pygi> just add it on the fridge (poke jdub I would say)
<mhz> pygi: I have just finished a meeting and need some sleep (at least 30 minutes)..could you please poke jdub for the Handbook Meeting?
<mhz>  /whois jdub shows no channel
<cbx33> morning ogra 
<ogra> hey hey
<cbx33> http://progbox.co.uk/attemp2.mp3
<cbx33> http://progbox.co.uk/attempt2.mp3
<cbx33> whoops
<cbx33> just inital conecpt and ideas at this stage
<cbx33> it's onyl a few K
<ogra> nice
<cbx33> suggestions comments?
<ogra> the break in the beginning feels a bit strange, i'd make it shorter, but else i think its great
<cbx33> cool
<cbx33> do you mean the pause between the notes?
<cbx33> or the actual pause before it starts?
<ogra> yeah
<cbx33> ok cool
<ogra> no
<juliux> cbx33, sounds great, but a littlebit windows like
<cbx33> I'll make another version tonight
<cbx33> juliux: any suggestions
<cbx33> as I said it's still VERY early days yet
<juliux> cbx33, second 5 and the rest sounds like a windows sound
<juliux> cbx33, the start sounds realy great
<rodarvus> nice sound, I liked it
<rodarvus> how long is the current one we have on Ubuntu?
<ogra> similar
<cbx33> about the same
<rodarvus> *nods*
<ogra> or even a little longer
<cbx33> yeh I think it possibly is
<rodarvus> chaging the login sound would be nice
<cbx33> :D
<cbx33> I agree
<ogra> changing all sounds would be better :P
<cbx33> ogra: that is my intention
<rodarvus> <ogra> the break in the beginning feels a bit strange, i'd make it shorter, but else i think its great
<rodarvus> agreed
<cbx33> it was done like that...to ease you into your desktop :p
<rodarvus> cbx33, did you played it on a keyboard connected to your computer?
<rodarvus> a midi keyboard, I mean
<cbx33> I used a Korg X5D synth for most sounds
<cbx33> and then used Ardour for the disc recording/mixing and effectsd
<rodarvus> right
* cbx33 loves ardour
<cbx33> and the korg has a wonderful sound set
* cbx33 makes notes....up the tempo and make it sound less windozy :p
<cbx33> maybe have some jungle drums in there :p
<rodarvus> south africans could feel offended if you use a jungle drums in there :)
<cbx33> ahhh true
<cbx33> ogra: so then rather than.....   |-|---|-|---|>------     more like |--|--|--|>--------  ? if that makes sense?
<ogra> and catholics could feel offended if you use bells ? come on :)
<rodarvus> I wonder when the "new zeroconf spec" thread on ubuntu-devel@ is gonna be ended
<rodarvus> it must have about 200 emails by now
<cbx33> dang I'm feeling offended already.....ok...just sine tones for this theme then :p
<ogra> rodarvus, not even ignoring it solves that it seems ...
<rodarvus> broken openoffice.org-l10n is holding the rest of the upgrades
<cbx33> rodarvus: again?????
* rodarvus sighs
<rodarvus> cbx33, yeah, but this time not on the build system
<rodarvus> the OOo package which was building yesterday was published to the mirrors
<rodarvus> but is missing openoffice.org-l10n
<ogra> cbx33, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDownUnder/BOFs/SoundEvents
<rodarvus> which was uploaded this morning
<ogra> found it :)
<cbx33> dang I was searching for that as well
<rodarvus> and (if build suceeds) will be published in about 15 hours from now
<rodarvus> so
<rodarvus> b0rked updates in Edgy for the next 15 hours :P
<cbx33> 8 or 44kHz, - seems a little too coarse to me :p
<ogra> "The average Windows user has not heard a system beep in 10 years!"
<ogra> hehe
<cbx33> it's like....hmmm should we have ...crap quality....or space hogging quality?
<cbx33> its been around for a while 2005-04-23
<rodarvus> ogra, do you remember where logs for our irc channels are kept?
<rodarvus> found it: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/
<cbx33> right back alter all
<cbx33> I'm getting kicked out of work 
<cbx33> at 12:18
<cbx33> I should be here till 4
<cbx33> but i nthe summer they shut early
<cbx33> last year it was 2
<cbx33> this year should be 1
<cbx33> but hey I'm still getting paid so I'm not gonna complain
<cbx33> more edubuntu time :D
<cbx33> bye all
<RichEd> out for 30 mins
<bddebian> Howdy
<mhz> morning guys
<jsgotangco> hey
<jsgotangco> and im already preparing to sleep in an hour =)
<mhz> I guess that there is not point is setting new topic on #ubuntu-meeting, if we are only 30 minutes left for Edubuntu Handbook meeting, tight ?
<mhz> ;)
<pygi> mhz, 20 minutes :P
<mhz> ;)
* pygi thinks he'll be sleeping tho :P
<mhz> == REMINDER | Edubuntu Handbook meeting, Today, in 18 minutes, #ubuntu-meeting ==
<Petaris> Morning all
<mhz> morning
<RichEd> hi again mhz ...
<mhz> RichEd: hi, Mr. Lizzard-on-shoulder's Husband ;D
<ogra> mhz, they have rats, not lizzards ;)
<mhz> HedgeMage: cool! I did not know if you would make it
<RichEd> that would be a big lizard ... it's Mr. Lizzards-on-shoulder ;)
<mhz> ogra: hehehe
<mhz> ogra: still "ogra-on-the-move" ?
<RichEd> ogra: we have rats & lizards & geckos
<ogra> mhz, just packed my motorbike in the truck ;)
<ogra> RichEd, oh, Jane never told me, she only talked about the rats ...
<mhz> ogra: nice! so you'll be offline for how many days?
<ogra> none :)
<mhz> == REMINDER | Edubuntu Handbook meeting, Today, in 3 minutes, #ubuntu-meeting ==
<RichEd> geckos are free in africa ... they're like cute soft lizards
<ogra> probably monday, depends how fast i am with unloading ...
<HedgeMage> mhz: I have to cut out but I'll be logging and pygi is going to run things
<RichEd> hopw's it looking to join us tomorrow in meeting ogra  ?
<ogra> if they dont shut down the DSL here tonight, it should be all fine 
<mhz> ogra, RichEd, and all... I may be offline for a couple of days (maybe even a week). I mean, there will be no broadband at home, so, I'll log in from a cibercafe near the house.
<mhz> That means, no more coffee while on the web :(
<mhz> RichEd: ohh, I haven't sent you yesterdays meeting log
* mhz slaps himself had
<mhz> had
<mhz> hard
<RichEd> already got it thanks
<RichEd> but feel free to abuse yourself
<mhz> == REMINDER | Edubuntu Handbook meeting, Today, Now?, #ubuntu-meeting ==
<mhz> hehehe
* pygi nods, NOW!
<mhz> sorry, I started reading emails yesterday and then I just forgot about it
<LaserJock> hi cbx33 
<cbx33> hey LaserJock 
<cbx33> Hi all
<cbx33> new sounds scheme test
<cbx33> http://progbox.co.uk/attempt3.mp3
<ogra> could you now add some living elements =
<ogra> ?
<cbx33> living elemts?
<ogra> i.e. the current one has birds singing silently in the background ..
<cbx33> i was gonna add kids laughing.....for an edubuntu one :p
<cbx33> hmmm
<ogra> something like playing kids 
<ogra> yay
<cbx33> I'll see what i canc do
<cbx33> does it sound better
<ogra> great minds think alike :)
<ogra> yup, sounds great
<cbx33> btw just so yous guys know....that last one was created entirely on ubuntu
<cbx33> no keyboards
<cbx33> I actually played it all on the laptop
<juliux> cbx33, great song
<cbx33> so that one is better yeh?
<juliux> cbx33, yes
<cbx33> great right I'll be back alter
<mbuf> i tried installed edubuntu on T41 that already has ubuntu dapper beta and installed grub to MBR, now system is not booting - error message "GRUB Loading Stage 1.5. Grub loading, please wait ... Error 18" - I am not able to enter into BIOS either :(
<mbuf> what do i do ?
<Burgwork> you need to reinstall grbu
<Burgwork> grab an ubuntu cd, there should a rescue mode on that
<pygi> hey RichEd 
<RichEd> hey ...
<RichEd> not officiallly here :) just messing around with last of my install issues - GRUB edit etc.
* RichEd slinks away quietly
* pygi stops RichEd from slipping away
* RichEd is revived for a few seconds ... backs off from the very appealing white light
* RichEd tries but but can't resist its pull
<RichEd> :)
* pygi clicks the lightswitch, and guess what :P
<RichEd> dunno can't see nothing ?
<pygi> lol, right :)
<RichEd> while it's quiet, can i sneak in a dumb question ?
<Burgwork> RichEd, nope
<pygi> RichEd, it isn't quiet, it's just dark :P
* RichEd will not be embarrassed in the dark
<RichEd> (seems to work for wimmin ;)
<pygi> RichEd, ok, shoot, so if I don't know as usual, I'll be quiet :)
<Burgwork> speaking of wimmin, how is your lovely wife?
<RichEd> with file search in Linux ... how do you list multiple file patterns in the search box ?
<RichEd> Burgwork:  sleeping i think
<RichEd> with MS file search, I can do [ *.png, *.abc ]  
<RichEd> commas between
<Burgwork> hmm, no idea
<Burgwork> never used search
<pygi> RichEd, "locate *.png *.abc" ?
<RichEd> pygi: using the GUI interface
<pygi> or "slocate *.png *.abc"
<pygi> ah
<RichEd> the one on the places menu
<RichEd> if i try what you suggest, it finds nothing at all, not even the first pattern
<Burgwork> the one on the places menu also uses locate
* RichEd tinkers with the select more options box
<pygi> RichEd, you must first do "sudo updatedb"
<pygi> then do "slocate *.png *.abc"
<RichEd> explain what this does please ? updatedb ?
<pygi> updates a database? :)
<pygi>    updatedb - update the slocate database
<RichEd> ah ... that must be like indexing files for quick search
<Burgwork> pygi, we need beagle or something better
<RichEd> and asking for the index to be updated
<pygi> Burgwork, beagle is fine in current state
<pygi> at least compared to before :P
<Burgwork> not on laptops
* RichEd cocks an ear .... new radiohead song oozing out of his radio ... mmmmmmmmmm gooood
<Burgwork> when you start in the sewer...
<RichEd> i'll leave you alone now and go back towards that bright light
<RichEd> tomorrow gents :)
<pygi> RichEd, try that pls :)
<pygi> Burgwork, hm, right
<RichEd> pygi: okay
<RichEd> yep ... multiple patterns match with space between.
<RichEd> and man says:
<RichEd> updatedb
<RichEd> NAME
<RichEd>        updatedb - update the slocate database
<pygi> I pasted you that =P
<RichEd> spot on pygi :)
<RichEd> ahhhhh
* pygi does bla =P
<RichEd> i must be getting ready for bed ... getting close to pumpkin time ...
<pygi> enjoy RichEd 
<RichEd> thanks & g'night
<pygi> night
#edubuntu 2006-07-28
<cbx33> evenin all
<LaserJock> hello cbx33 
<cbx33> hey LaserJock 
<cbx33> get mp3's working yet?
<LaserJock> yeah, I'm in OS X ;-)
<cbx33> listened to the new draft?
<LaserJock> 3?
<cbx33> yup
<LaserJock> yeah, I did
<LaserJock> that's the login sound?
<cbx33> suggestions?
<cbx33> comments?
<LaserJock> seems kinda long to me, but then again so does the current Ubuntu one
<cbx33> shortening is not a problem
<cbx33> just after the "swell"
<cbx33> and I need some "living" material
<ogra> dont shorten it unless you speed up the gnome startup :)
<cbx33> hehe
<cbx33> anyone with kids, please get me some sounds of them laughing and playing
<cbx33> not too young kids though
<LaserJock> you don't need a baby gurgle?
<LaserJock> ;-)
<cbx33> hmmm
<cbx33> I was hoping for more of a laugh
<cbx33> :p
<cbx33> I may have to do it myself and ramp up the sample speed :p
<LaserJock> haha
<ogra> just go to a playground near you 
<ogra> :)
<LaserJock> I was just going to suggest that
<cbx33> heheh
<cbx33> hehe
<cbx33> not too many round here that are actually used suprising ly
<LaserJock> although you probably would get arrested here
<ogra> dont you work in a school ? 
<LaserJock> YEAH!
<ogra> just record the schoolyard ;)
<LaserJock> and make sure to edit out the swearing ;-)
<cbx33> schools out ogra my man
<cbx33> summer time 
<ogra> pfft ...
<ogra> tell them they have to come ... you need them
<cbx33> I would....I need some help shifting some stuff
<cbx33> but we arn't allowed this year
<cbx33> child protection or something
<cbx33> Did I tell y'all I got busted by the cops for drugs today :p
<ogra> so you wont get around going to a swimming pool i guess :)
<cbx33> They stopped me and searched me at the station.....
<cbx33> cos their sniffer dog sat next to me
<cbx33> indicating I had drugs on me :p
<cbx33> which I didn't
<cbx33> be back later on guys :p
<cbx33> it was quite funny
<cbx33> I said maybe he picked up on the bad smell from our office at work
<LaserJock> hehe
<ogra> *g*
<cbx33> I'll post up the police form on my blog later
<cbx33> :D
<mhz> or. they could all shout "Edubuntu!"
<mhz> well, maybe, also "Bird Man!"
* mhz gets back to work :)
<bddebian> Hello
<mhz_food> gee! I had no idea bout this:
<mhz_food> http://www.fluxbuntu.org/
<mhz_food> nor
<mhz_food> http://ubuntucounter.geekosophical.net/
<LaserJock> mhz_food: where have you been? ;-)
<mhz_food> hehe
<mhz_food> working hard for edubuntu stuff only... not many ideas of what has been going on in overall
<jsgotangco> ubuntu/edubuntu bah
<mhz_food> ogra: btw, you suggested me to see Baltix
<mhz_food> ogra: I can't find any other info but the one on LP
<mhz_food> which is poor
<ogra> no, i suggested to talk to the maintainers :)
<mhz_food> oooh
* mhz_food gets back to ccoking
<LaserJock> holy cow, this VirtualDesktops for OS X is cool
<LaserJock> does XGL give you the little desktop cube switcher thing
<crimsun> are you using parallels?
<LaserJock> no
* LaserJock enters the age of eyecandy
<jsgotangco> LaserJock: the world is now moving from Ubuntu to MacOSX but you stick to MacOSX :)
<LaserJock> I'm riding the fence
<LaserJock> because I kinda need the mac for work
<LaserJock> but I finally got Ubuntu on it yesterday
<LaserJock> so now I've got a dual booting intel iMac
<LaserJock> \o/
<LaserJock> one thing I've missed on OS X is having virtual desktops
<LaserJock> but I found this awesome app today for that
* mode/#edubuntu [+o highvoltage]  by ChanServ
* mode/#edubuntu [-o highvoltage]  by highvoltage
<cbx33> w00t we have a freaky child laugh :p
<cbx33> ping Yagisan 
<jsgotangco> ?
<cbx33> hey jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> hey you
<cbx33> pm'd ya
<jsgotangco> downloading
<cbx33> :D
<cbx33> 200k I think
<jsgotangco> hey!
<jsgotangco> that is nice!
<cbx33> yeh?
<cbx33> best yet?
<cbx33> I'm going to try and get a better child laugh
<jsgotangco> hmm the laugh is a bit impish
* cbx33 is the imp
<jsgotangco> yeah
<cbx33> audacity did the rest
<jsgotangco> or a child shouting ubuntu
<jsgotangco> err
<jsgotangco> edubuntu
<cbx33> that's a neat idea
<cbx33> I was thinking of having slighly customised sounds for each *ubuntu distro
<cbx33> but it may eat space
<cbx33> thanks for the feedback
<cbx33> overall a positive ?
<cbx33> just need to get rid of the imp
<Yagisan> imp ?
<cbx33> the laughing at the end Yagisan 
<cbx33> it was merely for demo puporses anyway
<cbx33> and so far, apart fro mthe imp the entire thing was created using ubuntu software....no synth keyboards in this one
<Yagisan> oh soory. when you say imp, I think of doom and the brown guys that throw fireballs
<cbx33> Yagisan, me too
<jsgotangco> all that thing was done in audacity?
<cbx33> actually I think of the "eeeeeeeEEEEEEeee" sound.....but i think it's the soldiers who make that noise
<cbx33> jsgotangco, ardour actually
<jsgotangco> ahh
<cbx33> just used audacity to pitch shift my voice
<jsgotangco> i would be surprised if its all audacity
<jsgotangco> since you didnt pipe in a synth
<cbx33> I used ZynAddSubFx for the synth
<cbx33> and played it on the computer keyboard
<cbx33> was fun at the train station yesterday
<cbx33> and of course my favorite piece of software....JACK
<cbx33> man that is an amazing system
<cbx33> bbl
<RichEd> hello
<Burgundavia> RichEd: morning
<Burgundavia> do you know of any organizations that would sponsor some content creation (kids games)
<RichEd> not sure Burgundavia : what age ? what style of game ? any branding / marketing opportunities ?
* RichEd ponders cell phone networks & the like
<Burgundavia> 3-7, freddi the fish style
<RichEd> cbx33: please lets start off in the channel, and ping me with a chat topic ... i really can't afford a private window every day first thing in the morning
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia: using child's play or gcompris as base?
<cbx33> sorry RichEd 
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco: the latter
<jsgotangco> revamped artwork would be nice too
<Burgundavia> I am busy trying to weld together the inkscape people with the gcompris people and us
<RichEd> no problem ... just priorities that's all ... need to allocate time ... happy to do it when i knmow what it's about :)
<cbx33> Burgundavia, sounds intriguing
<RichEd> Burgundavia: need to think about the organisations active in that commercial segment 3-7
<Burgundavia> I know there are a bunch of US foundations dedicated to education
<RichEd> who needs kids of 3-7 to think they are hip ... or who needs parents of kids 3-7 to think they are intersted in their kids ...
<RichEd> go with an anti-violence pitch message ?
<Burgundavia> sure, happy cooperation
<RichEd> so what about groups like "mothers against play-station violence" guessing there is such a sort of lobby
<RichEd> :)
<jsgotangco> hmm i guess you dont own a console at home heh
<RichEd> ogra / mdz / rodarvus : we on for meeting in 5 min ?
<RichEd> Burgundavia: last suggestion ... the group who do music censorship & video ratings ? (just bouncing in some ideas from left field)
<Burgundavia> hmm, not likely to extract money from them
<Burgundavia> I would like money with as few strings as possible
<cbx33> RichEd, i was just gonna ask if you managed to read my mail?
<RichEd> on the list - major mail pass after my meeting this morning 
<cbx33> np
<cbx33> will hopefully get the revised spreadsheet to you later today
<cbx33> right I'm off to work now guys
<cbx33> see ya later
<RichEd> cheers cbx33 have agood one
<RichEd> ogra / mdz / rodarvus : ignore my last comment ... approached UTC from the wrong direction ... see you in 4 hours
<Burgundavia> http://www.humanart.cz/grafika-30-oskar-a-jeho-pratele.html
<jsgotangco> thats nice
<Burgundavia> that is the guy who I hope to create this kids stuff with
<cgbx33> ogra: http://progbox.co.uk/attempt4.mp3
<cgbx33> freaky imp laugh at the end to be replaced with something more innocent :p
<mdz> RichEd: hmm?
<RichEd> mdz: ermmm ?
<ogra_> hmm ?
<ogra_> (just to join the choir)
<mdz> RichEd: you spoke to me twice about a meeting
<RichEd> yes ... 11:00 UTC ?
<ogra_> in 10 mins 
<RichEd> we agreed #canonical-meeting ?
<mdz> I don't remember discussing a meeting at this time
<mdz> it's 4am here
<ogra_> heavy thunderstorms here and i had random power outages already this morning ... might be that i'm offline occasionally
<RichEd> when would suit you (both) ?
* ogra_ doesnt care
<rodarvus> RichEd, meeting in 12 minutes, right?
<rodarvus> oh, ogra just mentioned it, sorry
<ogra_> RichEd, but since rodarvus is nearer to mdz i guess some time in our late afternoon evening woud wuit them best
<ogra_> suit
<rodarvus> yes, quite likely
<mdz> something agreed upon in advance would work for me
<mdz> what's the subject of the meeting?
<RichEd> a brief intro chat about education direction before i see mark & janeS next week
<RichEd> things you would like to to table or discuss with them
<RichEd> me to <- to to 
<RichEd> the main points being (1) to relieve you of work / tasks by me adding bandwith
<RichEd> and (2) how we work towards the same goals - do we have a regular education core meeting & do you need or want to be involved
<rodarvus> I'll be right back (need to reboot urgently)
<RichEd> mdz / ogra / rodarvus : apologies for the confusion then but i was under the impression that 11:00 UTC today was suggested
<RichEd> mdz / ogra / rodarvus : would it be better to send an email with suggestions and questions asking for comment response ...
<mdz> RichEd: yes
<mdz> I'm only awake due to jetlag and plan to go back to sleep shortly
<RichEd> okay ... i'll get something to you all for comment over the weekend ... can we possible fit in 30 min chat on monday / tuesday ?
<ogra> monday might be bad for me ... 
<ogra> (depending on my speed in moving)
<RichEd> okay let's leave it open for tuesday some time ... i fly at 17h00 UTC ... so if we can't fit with mdz then we'll discuss his emal response between the 3 of us ?
<cgbx33> ogra: did you hear attempt4?
<ogra> cgbx33, nope ....
<ogra> where does the g in your nick stand for ? 
<cgbx33> i dont know
<ogra> heh
<cgbx33> http://progbox.co.uk/attempt4.mp3
<ogra> sounds evlish
<cgbx33> yeh
<ogra> like a giggling granny
<cgbx33> it's gonna be replaced
<cgbx33> oi....I'm no granny
<cgbx33> it's just to see what it sounds like with a laugh
<ogra> i'd have a human element all over the sound, not only in the last 5 millisecs ...
<cgbx33> ok
<ogra> fade in some playing laughing childs in the first third
<cgbx33> ok
<rodarvus> RichEd, agreed
<ogra> RichEd, yep, fine with me
<ogra> i *should* be done with moving on monday though ... i just cant promise it
<cgbx33> now I just need to find some children
<RichEd> okay ... non-meeting closed ... moving it to email ... resume threads on monday
<ogra> go to a public swimming pool
<RichEd> ogra: no need to stress ... tue is fine
<cgbx33> and take my laptop in there? :p
<ogra> sure
<ogra> or a tape 
<ogra> (i dont mean you should swim with it :P)
<RichEd> it 'prolly will be best to present mdz with options for quick review & comment ... we should make internal suggestions first and see what is supported, modified, or shot down ;)
<RichEd> all for now ... back to task list for me
<cgbx33> ogra: i must have gotten the wrong idea :p
<jsgotangco> hey kids
* ogra_ applauds rodarvus for his first edubuntu-meta upload ...
<ogra_> now you are really edubuntu ! :)
<rodarvus> :)
<rodarvus> it was time to finally upload it ;)
<rodarvus> I didn't knew much about germinate before
<ogra_> yep, -desktop just got uninstalled here
<rodarvus> amazing how germinate+seeds work wonderfully
<ogra_> yup
<ogra_> its just taking a ton of diskspace for all these files ... it could really need some options if you want only cheack a small thing ...
<rodarvus> it is really a piece of cake - no manual work required, and even debian/changelog is filled for you
<ogra_> (i mean germinate standalone here)
<rodarvus> jsgotangco, hi there
<ogra_> btw Xorg crashes in intresting ways if you use fglrx 
<jsgotangco> bom dia rodarvus como esta?
<ogra_> i had a ton of errors from the synaptics driver about unresolved symbols 
<ogra_> (no indication at all about fglrx being at fault )
<ogra_> so expect some intresting bugreports from ati users :)
<jsgotangco> Accepted:
<jsgotangco>  OK: edubuntu-meta_1.4.dsc
<rodarvus> opa
<jsgotangco> Changed-By: Rodrigo Parra Novo <rodarvus@ubuntu.com>
<rodarvus> jsgotangco aprendeu portugus - que legal!
<rodarvus> ogra_, fglrx was not updated yet, actually
<ogra> nope
<rodarvus> ogra, which unresolved symbols you got on synaptics?
<ogra> i had to switch to ati ... but the errors didnt indicate any probs with fglrx
<rodarvus> you're not the first person to tell me this, but I've seen no bug report yet
<jsgotangco> rodarvus: Eu estou aprendendo
<ogra> damned ... i'll have to switch back to fglrx to check that ...
<ogra> i have no log saved here 
<ogra> but it should be reproducable
<rodarvus> jsgotangco, cool :)
<rodarvus> ogra, appreciated!
<ogra> brb
<ogra> rodarvus, bug 54357 for you
<rodarvus> ogra, thanks so much!
<ogra> i kept the whole log (and noticed an error from fglrx this time as well) in case you need it
<rodarvus> hmm
<rodarvus> it looks like this bug is somehow related to the -fstack-protector flag of gss-ssp
<bddebian> Hello
<ogra> in any case its not fglrx related, i see it in the log of the running server as well
<rodarvus> yup
<rodarvus> surely not fglrx related
<rodarvus> I have just asked on #ubuntu-toolchain
<rodarvus> it seems to me that this bug is due to -fstack-protection flag added recently
<ogra> yup
<ogra> you can add -fno-stack-protection to the build opts to work around it
<rodarvus> yup, just want to make sure this is really the case
<rodarvus> (and indeed, it really seems to be)
<DanielC> Yay! Someone just advocated my package in Revu!
<DanielC> http://revu.tauware.de/details.py?upid=2806
<DanielC> I just need one more advocate... :)
<mhz_work> congrats DanielC ;)
<DanielC> :)
<rodarvus> DanielC, actually, it seems you already have two advocates.
<bddebian> DanielC: You have 2 advocates
<DanielC> yeah, it happened just a minute ago.
<DanielC> YYEEEEAAAHHHH!!!!1
<DanielC> I'm happy.
<DanielC> I'm in Universe baby!
<DanielC> This weekend I'll make a package for the writer guide. Now that I've made all the mistakes with my first package, this second one should go in more smoothly.
<jsgotangco> hey
<jsgotangco> congrats
<DanielC> :D
<mhz_work> *\o/*
<jsgotangco> good night
<cbx33> ogra, the sounds I'm making
<cbx33> are you intending for them to be edubuntu specific?
<cbx33> hi LaserJock 
<LaserJock> hi cbx33 
<cbx33> howz you?
<cbx33> everything going ok?
<LaserJock> I guess
<LaserJock> hard to say this early in the day for me :-)
<cbx33> hehe
<DanielC> Does anyone know how long it takes for packages.ubuntu.com to be updated?
<DanielC> I want to show all my friends that I have a package in Universe :)
<LaserJock> hehe
<LaserJock> it'll take a while
<DanielC> ok
<LaserJock> the build farm is backed up
<LaserJock> some stuff is behind a week or so
<DanielC> a week!
<LaserJock> but it seems to be picking up
<DanielC> On Revu, what do those pictures mean? My package went from having a lightbulb and a hammer to having a lightbulb and a heart.
<LaserJock> yep
<LaserJock> that means it's been approved
<DanielC> I guess that the hammer means "work in progress" and the heart means "accepted" but what's the lightbulb?
<LaserJock> just hold your mouse on the icon and it will give you a little message
<DanielC> new
<DanielC> thanks
<DanielC> I just uploaded a package for the Writer guide. It's almost identical to the one that just got approved, so I hope this one will go through smoothly.
* mode/#edubuntu [+o highvoltage]  by ChanServ
* mode/#edubuntu [-o highvoltage]  by highvoltage
<LaserJock> I would think so
<DanielC> :)
<DanielC> LaserJock: http://revu.tauware.de/details.py?upid=2809
<DanielC> Writer guide in Revu.
<cbx33> DanielC, I'm still waiting for my pacakge to get in :p
<LaserJock> DanielC: oh yeah, your package is probably still in NEW
<cbx33> LaserJock, why is mine not got the "approved" heart
<crimsun> which package?
<crimsun> (or packages)
<LaserJock> hmm, probably because I didn't archive it
<cbx33> heheh thanks LaserJock 
<rodarvus> DanielC, first your package must be accepted into the archive
<rodarvus> as two of the three persons that usually do this are not here for the next few days
<DanielC> rodarvus: I don't understand, isn't that what happened today?
<rodarvus> DanielC, your package was accepted into ubuntu
<rodarvus> but it is new for the publishing system
<DanielC> ok...
<rodarvus> the publishing system (called Soyuz) knows nothing about revu.tauware.de, I think
<DanielC> ah
<rodarvus> I believe revu is of a more political nature
<DanielC> so it's not another "approval" stage, it's just an infrastructural thing?
<rodarvus> exactly.
<DanielC> great :)
<rodarvus> if revu was implemented inside LaunchPad, this would be automatic
<rodarvus> (or could be, even)
<DanielC> and I guess that's a goal for the future.
<rodarvus> yeah, probably
<rodarvus> DanielC, your package will be reviewed again, by an ubuntu-archive member (they are very talented and experienced people)
<DanielC> ok
<Amaranth> anyone got an example of how to make my daemon run as it's own user?
<rodarvus> but as it was already reviewed by a few people on revu, its probably ok
<Amaranth> i stole the user creation stuff from cups, just need to know how to make it run as that user
<Burgwork> rodarvus, revu v3 is going to be integrated into LP
<Amaranth> maybe i should ask in #ubuntu-motu :)
<LaserJock> Burgwork: revu v3? we don't even have revu2 yet :-)
<LaserJock> revu is sort of like a prereview to get stuff sponsored by MOTU, it still has to go through all the same stuff afterword (i.e. NEW processing for new packages) that any other packages has to
<LaserJock> ogra: I'll have to admin, edubuntu-dynamic-menus has got me stumped right now
<DanielC> admint? :)
<DanielC> admit
* DanielC can't spell either
<LaserJock> admit
<LaserJock> bah
<DanielC> spelling is over-rated :)
<LaserJock> umm, yeah. Don't tell that to the doc team people who have to correct my stuff
<DanielC> :)
<ogra> just use xchat with libsexy :)
<ogra> it does spell checking on the input field :)
<LaserJock> yeah, that's the only thing I don't like about irssi really
<DanielC> is it really called libsexy?
<LaserJock> yeah
<DanielC> he he he
<ogra> i tgoes fine together with liboobs :P
<Burgwork> x-g uses that already
<ogra> x-g ?
<Burgwork> xchat-gnome
<ogra> xchat as well since edgy started
<ogra> :)
#edubuntu 2006-07-29
<pygi> Burgwork, you have a sec?
<bddebian> Howdy
<pygi> hey bddebian 
<bddebian> Hi pygi
<pygi> how is you?
<bddebian> OK thanks, you?
<pygi> tired, am working on this libburn stuff for ages =P
<pygi> otherwise I am fine :)
<bddebian> Ah :-)
<pygi> bddebian, what??! :)
<bddebian> I mean ah, that you are tired from working on libburn
<pygi> =P
<Burgwork> pygi, I do
<pygi> trying to revive the silly project which was abandoned for no real reason :P
<pygi> Burgwork, have you heard from our lill' friend working on Epiphany plugin?
<pygi> Safety Boat
<Burgwork> not in a few days
<Burgwork> you?
<pygi> nop, that's why I am asking
<pygi> it's like only 23 days till the end
<Burgwork> nor have I seen any code
<pygi> me neither :-/
<pygi> this is bad, very bad :(
<Burgwork> yes it is
<pygi> do we have any other simmilar student?
<Burgwork> what do you mean?
<Burgwork> working on safety boat or lost ones?
<pygi> well, who isn't responding, no code seen, bla, bla
<pygi> is he the only issue or we have more?
<Burgwork> not certain, not been much involved with SoC recently
<pygi> hm, right, but I think we need to sort this Anselmo guy
<Burgwork> but I haven't heard much except for Amaranth and ajmitch 
<pygi> I hear from my three students, and Ryan
<Burgwork> that is good
<pygi> and abbatoir, amaranth and ajmitch ofcourse :)
<Burgwork> I think this year is more successful
* pygi nods as he thinks the same
<Burgwork> what is sad is that about 3 or 4 women approached me to work on safety boat as part of gnome wsop
<pygi> yup, you told me that :(
<pygi> and at the end, we probably wont get it :-/
<Burgwork> nope
<Amaranth> Mine is already mostly useful for a desktop (or ltsp setup).
<Burgwork> where are the packages for that again?
<Burgwork> as it seems the logs are busted right now
<pygi> I think we should write guidelines for next year (some kind of atleast) for both mentors, and students
<Amaranth> Burgwork: REJECTED :)
<Amaranth> err, :(
<Amaranth> Python policy stuff.
<pygi> Amaranth, :P
<Burgwork> this year is much better pygi
<Burgwork> google is far more organized and has learned a great deal
<pygi> Burgwork, well it is, but it can be even better =P
<Amaranth> Waiting on the latest cdbs upload to hit the archives so I can depend on it then it should be good to go (cdbs had a bashism).
<Amaranth> I still haven't gotten paid.
<pygi> we've made some mistakes this year that shouldn't happen again
<pygi> Amaranth, first or second send-out?
<Amaranth> pygi: First.
<Amaranth> Have people gotten the second?
<pygi> Amaranth, still havent got first?  :-/
<pygi> nop, not yet 
<Amaranth> If so I've missed that too because I was supposed to be one of the first to get that one.
<pygi> howcome?
<Amaranth> Why was I supposed to be one of the first?
* pygi nods
<Amaranth> Because they missed my first one and I'm in the US. :P
<pygi> ah =P
<pygi> perhaps they will send both in package =P
<Amaranth> They are.
<Burgundavia> Amaranth: ping
<Amaranth> pong
<Burgundavia> Amaranth: the safety boat person wants to chat with you about how he can hook up with your app
<Amaranth> talking to him
<Burgundavia> perfect
<Burgundavia> Amaranth: http://www.icra.org/systemspecification/
<Amaranth> Burgundavia: No.
<Burgundavia> Amaranth: like it or not, it is something that is needed
<Amaranth> Burgundavia: I don't want to read a multipage document, I want a list of 5 or so categories. :P
<Burgundavia> oh, that
<Amaranth> Anything beyond what I have right now will likely have to wait for someone else to do it or next summer unless school doesn't swamp me.
<Burgundavia> http://www.icra.org/decode/
<Burgundavia> likely you might have to wait
<Burgundavia> it appears to be needleesly complicated
<Amaranth> Indeed.
<Burgundavia> plus there are three different vocabs
<Amaranth> I was thinking "sex", "violence", etc.
<Burgundavia> you almost need a complete parser just for that
<Burgundavia> well, you can half implement a subset
<Amaranth> These aren't going to offer sublevels of allowance either, this is just different pools of words.
<Burgundavia> just block the first letter and get into the subsections later
<Amaranth> The classifier checks the current page against the pools and tells which one it likely fits in.
<Burgundavia> ah
<Burgundavia> I leave it up to you to work out how to do it
<Amaranth> I'm talking about the bayesian filter, not some separate system.
<Burgundavia> ah
<Burgundavia> basically the bayesian system weights stuff? so this could simply add another weight? (a rather large one)
<Amaranth> Oh, this is what anselmolsm was talking about?
<Amaranth> Burgundavia: It's a very complicated weighting system, if you want to call it that.
<Burgundavia> yes
<Amaranth> I can't really modify it without extensive testing.
<Amaranth> The math is, to be honest, mostly above me.
<Burgundavia> ok
<Burgundavia> so the interactions with this would be quite subtle and complex and require a great deal of thought
<Amaranth> indeed
<Amaranth> you change one thing and it throws the entire results off
<Burgundavia> so it spits out a final number, ala SA?
<Amaranth> some of the smartest people in the world are still working on ways to fine tune this system and they run into the same problems :P
<Amaranth> it spits out a number for every pool
<Amaranth> right now i have two pools: good and bad
<Amaranth> if bad has a higher number i say it's bad and vice versa
<Burgundavia> ok
<Amaranth> i can do some fine-tuning with the output numbers (like, say, mark something as good unless the bad value is higher than 0.7) but changing the algorithm itself is probably a bad idea
<Amaranth> i was thinking i could create a good pool and then a sex pool and a violence pool and so on
<anselmolsm> Amaranth, let me see if I got your point: A website is bloqued or not, there's no intermediate level?
<Amaranth> but then it takes more work for someone to mark something as bad because they have to say why it's bad
<Amaranth> yeah, right now it's either blocked or not blocked
<anselmolsm> (I think I wasn't clear in my question)
<anselmolsm> I'm thinking about an example to illustrate it better
<Amaranth> You can't say "block porn sites but allow violent sites"
<Amaranth> unless you only mark porn sites as bad
<Amaranth> the way it's setup the browser doesn't have anything to do with it
<Amaranth> except to use it as a proxy
<Amaranth> to control it you have to be running as root (or sudo)
<Amaranth> brb
<anselmolsm> Ok, ofr me it sound less complicated... Thinking here about the example I realized that this way is better 
<anselmolsm> As you've said, about sex and violence, it'll be difficult to find a situation when it'll be ok for one and not for another... 
<Amaranth> indeed
<Amaranth> you can train willowng to think one is bad and one is good but i can't see many doing that
<Amaranth> i hope that wasn't your whole project
<anselmolsm> no, it isn't
<Amaranth> btw, the irca is worthless
<Amaranth> It's not in the best interest of a porn website to make it easy to block them.
<anselmolsm> The difference now is that our projects will talk less than I've thought
<Amaranth> Yeah I don't think a whole lot of interaction is needed.
<Amaranth> Other than training it my program is supposed to be transparent to anything doing web access.
<anselmolsm> I think now only the whitelists and blacklists will need to be sent to willowng
<Amaranth> Fun thing there: willowng only lets you talk to it as root (or with sudo).
<Amaranth> So you'd have to run your browser as root or make a call to an external program.
<Burgundavia> anselmolsm: is the control app not a seperate thing?
<anselmolsm> the control is separeted
<Burgundavia> hence not an issue
<anselmolsm> Burgundavia, only the config about the start pages and search engines will run from the inside of Epiphany (do you agree??)
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> the homepage stuff is just content
<Burgundavia> it can even conceivably be split out
<pygi> morning all
<Amaranth> morning
<Amaranth> well, night for me :)
<pygi> :P
<bddebian> Aye me too, hi pygi, gnight pygi :-)
<Burgundavia> hey jsgotangco
<jsgotangco> hey
<jsgotangco> what's up Burgundavia?
<Burgundavia> not much
* Yagisan-aWay is Away, Reason: ( "Real life :(" ) | Since: ( Saturday July 29 2006. 13:32:46 ) Xlack v2.1
<jsgotangco> yeah its a boring weekend for me as well (it started raining agian)
* mhz loves the smell after rain
<mhz> rodarvus: ping
* Yagisan-aWay is back ( Away 1 hour 37 mins 31 secs )
<cbx33> hi guys
<cbx33> any one got a good way to find and replace multiple lines in multiple files?
<DanielC> cbx33: can you be more specific?
<cbx33> ok
<cbx33> I'm working on some html pages
<DanielC> I'm handy with Perl, maybe I can help.
<cbx33> that all have the same navigation code
<cbx33> oooh
<cbx33> it can be code I edit each time to make find and replace
<cbx33> I just need it to go through each html/php file in that directory
<cbx33> search for a given block of code
<cbx33> and replace with antoher given block of coed
<DanielC> Wait... do you have a webserver with php?
<cbx33> yes
<DanielC> If so, you should just use php include().
<DanielC> <?php include("navigation.tpl") ?>
<DanielC> And put your navigation in that file.
<cbx33> oh yeh
<cbx33> that is the longer term plan
<DanielC> :)
<cbx33> maybe I should do it now
<cbx33> and skip all this trouble
<cbx33> I just cba at the moment
<DanielC> That would be my advice.
<cbx33> grrrr damn you DanielC :p
<DanielC> If you send me the files I'll do the conversion.
<DanielC> It's probably a simple perl script.
<cbx33> well it is just items being added to the navigation
<cbx33> so you're right I should spend the time and do it properly
<DanielC> I'm sure I can write a script to remove the navigation from each file and replace it by <? include("nav.tpl") ?>
<cbx33> nah that's fine, I'll do it....hehe
<cbx33> there are 5 different templates..
<cbx33> www.kitestudio.com
<DanielC> ok
<MrGreen> Err can you like load ubuntu after XP?
<cbx33> ping Yagisan 
<cbx33> ping ogra_ 
<cbx33> ping anyone :p
<pygi> poke cbx33 
<cbx33> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuSounds
<cbx33> check out the last one
<cbx33> opinions really really welcome
<pygi> nice, but I would never let this play every time I login =P
<cbx33> bah
<cbx33> why 
<cbx33> what are _you_ looking for
<pygi> cbx33, something more calm 
<pygi> I'd be glad to help with this (guitar) but I currently have no way to record it
<cbx33> hehe
<cbx33> well, seeing as it hasn't changed since breezy and I'm desperate to do some music stuff
<cbx33> and I have ilttle time because I do so much ubuntu word
<cbx33> I thought i'd combine the two
<cbx33> actually no, i think it hasn't changed sine warty
<cbx33> someone said
<pygi> well, it's nice, I would just turn it off =P
<pygi> But who am I to say anything :)
<cbx33> did you trun off the current one?
<cbx33> pygi, I'm really interested in your opinions - and would love to hear anything you can contribute, once you find a way to :p
<pygi> cbx33, I don't have sound enabled currently :)
<cbx33> hahah
<pygi> I did enable it for this tho =P
<cbx33> phew
<cbx33> I was wondering if you just listened to 10 secs of silence
<cbx33> it's been a nightmare trying to get feedback from anyone else other than the edubuntu community
<pygi> lol, silence :)
<pygi> hm, so you need a feedback?
<pygi> want me to help ? :)
<pygi> with getting feedback
<cbx33> yes
<pygi> oki, you'll get dozen by the end of the day :)
<pygi> cbx33, you alive? :P
<cbx33> yes
<cbx33> thank you
<cbx33> :D
<cbx33> where
<cbx33> email?
<cbx33> or on the wiki?
<pygi> read email pls :)
<pygi> if you are subscribe to ubuntu-users, kubuntu-users, or edubuntu-users
<cbx33> ok
<pygi> cbx33, and tell me what you think ;)
<cbx33> ok
<cbx33> hang on
<cbx33> just working on another theme
* pygi hangs himself
<cbx33> pygi, another tune on the wiki
<cbx33> bottom one
<pygi> cbx33, will go listen
<pygi> you read mail pls :)
<cbx33> am doing
<pygi> cbx33, btw. please use ogg :)
<cbx33> i did to begin with and every said...oh I havn't got ogg
<cbx33> pygi, I'm on edubuntu-users
<cbx33> I don;t see a new mail though?
<pygi> damn
* pygi wonders what happened with his mail
<pygi> maybe it got cought in filters
<pygi> ok, will pm you
<cbx33> ok
<cbx33> looks great
<cbx33> maybe I should send to the lists
<cbx33> :S
<bddebian> Hello
<cbx33> hi bddebian 
<bddebian> :-)
<pygi> cbx33, I sent it already, please dont
<pygi> it will be there
<cbx33> ok
<pygi> poke lists maintainer to see if it got stuck or something
<pygi> or just servers are slow as usual ;)
<cbx33> heheh
<pygi> cbx33, just you laugh ;)
<Yagisan> pong cbx33 
<cbx33> hi Yagisan 
<cbx33> how goes it
<Yagisan> busy cbx33 
<cbx33> nope
<cbx33> taking a breather
<cbx33> going to play drums in an hour :D
<Yagisan> cbx33, I really need to type punctuation
<cbx33> you're busy?
<Yagisan> cbx33, but that answers my next question
<cbx33> man I'm confised :p
<Yagisan> cbx33, me busy - kids going to bed
<cbx33> ahhh
<Yagisan> cbx33, you lucky man. relaxing. I'm not sure what relax is anymore ...
<cbx33> howz it all going?
<mhz> just loged in to let everyone (in case you need to ping me today) that I wont be logging in from time to time during my day time today. I am sure I'll be on this channel between 23:00 and 01:00 UTC
<cbx33> w00t a new sound again :p
<cbx33> I love recording these themes
<pygi> cbx33, :P
<pygi> now I need your help :)
<cbx33> eeekk
<cbx33> I'm just about to goto out to the inlaws
<pygi> =P
<pygi> oki, go then :)
<cbx33> is it quick or is it something I can do later on?
<pygi> cbx33, it's quick, but you can do it later on :)
<cbx33> cool
<cbx33> mail me yah?
<pygi> nah, will poke you on the list
<pygi> irc*
<cbx33> ok
<pygi> it's not urgent or anything, don't worry :)
<pygi> enjoy
<cbx33> hehe
<cbx33> no feedback yet 
<cbx33> it's like people just don't care
<cbx33> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuSounds
<cbx33> heard the altest one pygi ?
<cbx33> I think I could live with that one
<pygi> cbx33, I am not sure if my mail reached the list?
<cbx33> it reached one
<cbx33> I keep posting in #ubuntu
<cbx33> but no one says a word
<cbx33> :p
<pygi> hm,oki
<pygi> once you are back we go beast-hunting :)
<cbx33> beast-hunting?
* pygi nods :)
<pygi> beast = feedback :)
<cbx33> ahh...cool
<cbx33> so what do you think of the latest one?
<pygi> I havent listened to it
<pygi> I can if you want me to?
<cbx33> eeek wife is calling
<cbx33> I gotta go
<cbx33> bbl
<pygi> enjoy :)
<lucasvo> hi everybody!
<lucasvo> finally back after two gorgeous weeks in italy
<pygi> lucasvo, :)
<jryer> Anyone know how to get docbook to work in Writer? When I save as a docbook, Writer just hangs.
<EmxBA> hi
<LaserJock> jryer: hmm, I did it a long time ago
<jryer> LaserJock, any tips? I tried looking around...theres a lot about java and openoffice working together but nowhere do I see where it tell you what to do to fix the problem
<LaserJock> jryer: sorry, it worked fine for me (although I needed to tidy up the XML)
<EmxBA> lebrate the day
<lucasvo> doh, I should not have rebooted my edgy machine
<lucasvo> my X is broken
<Amaranth> lucasvo: nvidia or ati?
<lucasvo> ati
<lucasvo> I get the error could not open default font  fixed
<lucasvo> Amaranth: you can help me?
<Amaranth> oh, that one
<Amaranth> hrm
<Amaranth> i can't remember how i fixed that one
<LaserJock> lucasvo: you sure you've dist-upgraded? I thought that was fixed (or maybe not)
<lucasvo> LaserJock: well, I regulary do upgrades, I upgraded to edgy couple of weeks ago
<lecaros> to edgy? hummm
<ogra> lucasvo, run mkfontdir in the misc font dir ...
<lucasvo> ogra: thanks
<lucasvo> it worked
<ogra> btw, dont even try fglrx if you planned that ... 
<lucasvo> no I didn't
<lucasvo> why should I?
<lucasvo> I never used 3D on my pc so far
<ogra> 3d stuff ?
<lucasvo> games, blender and all this stuff
<lucasvo> or isn't fglrx a driver with 3d accell?
<lecaros> hi
<lecaros> I can't find net-snmp package on repositories... i have my sources.list on http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/19207
<lecaros> any idea?
<lecaros> anybody? :(
<LaserJock> hmm
<LaserJock> I don't see any net-snmp
<lecaros> see https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/dapper/+source/net-snmp
<crimsun> that's the name of the source package.
<crimsun> You want one of its binaries.
<crimsun> crimsun@garnish:~$ apt-cache showsrc net-snmp |grep ^Binary
<crimsun> Binary: tkmib, libsnmp9, snmp, libsnmp-perl, libsnmp-base, libsnmp9-dev, snmpd
<LaserJock> ah, i wondered about that
<crimsun> sometimes the source package name matches its generated binary; many times it doesn't.
<lecaros> oops
<lecaros> ok, i'll try with that, i hope to solve my problem
<lecaros> thanks
<crimsun> np
<lecaros> it works :) tks a lot
<crimsun> np
<crimsun> pygi's a brave one, summoning matt on the weekend :)
<LaserJock> yeah, I just thought that
<crimsun> (deliberate use of first name there to avoid triggering highlight in this channel, too)
<pygi> crimsun, hehe, I just have a good news, nothing else ;)
<crimsun> :)
<pygi> Hopefully he won't eat me =P
* pygi is scared 'cause nobody said "no, ofcourse he won't"
<crimsun> oh he will. It just depends what condiments he uses.
<LaserJock> we are making bets behind your back ;-)
<pygi> LaserJock, yes, plots behind my backs are usual lately
<pygi> so nothing new really :)
<LaserJock> heh
<pygi> ;)
<pygi> hey ho Burgundavia 
<Burgundavia> hey pygi
<Burgundavia> pygi: good news, all is not lost in the case of safety boat
<pygi> Burgundavia, nice, so you've heard from anselmo or talked to Daniel?
<Burgundavia> anselmo
<pygi> oh,oki, so what are we facing at? what's the status? :)
<Burgundavia> there is code, daniel has seen it
<pygi> oh, good then
<pygi> Hopefully it's useful then :)
<Burgundavia> indeed
#edubuntu 2006-07-30
<Signifer123> this is alot more calm than #ubuntu
<Burgundavia> yep
<LaserJock> heh
* mhz scrathces his head because he got questions from someone who has no idea why she is on #edubuntu-es :(
<bddebian> Heya
<mhz> hi, bddebian 
<bddebian> Hello mhz
<sbalneav> Evening all
<bddebian> Hello sbalneav
<sbalneav> Good UTC-5 to you, bddebian!
<LaserJock> hi sbalneav 
<LaserJock> -5? I would've though you were -6
<sbalneav> Hey LaserJock!! How are you!
<LaserJock> ok
<LaserJock> how's it going up there?
<LaserJock> a?
<sbalneav> Going good!
<sbalneav> On holidays!
<LaserJock> cool
<bddebian> LaserJock: That's funny because I was thinking EDT was -4 :)
<LaserJock> bddebian: well, it depends on you're perspective. The Eastern US is that little chunk on the Atlantic Coast ;-)
<bddebian> LaserJock: I'm wondering if I should just sync lyx?  THe last change was just me adding some xml files for mime handling but I got "yelled" at for my last xml files
<lecaros> mhz 
<LaserJock> bddebian: yeah
<bddebian> Oh, heh, wrong channel :-)
<mhz> lecaros: again, for 100th time.. 
<mhz> pong
<mhz> :D
<lecaros> hi Yagisan, how're your eyes?
<Yagisan> G'day lecaros 
<Yagisan> well, good news and bad news
<lecaros> tell us :)
<Yagisan> Good news is the eyes are fine. Bad news is it is a neuroligical (brain) problem
<LaserJock> ?
<Yagisan> apparently my eyes are better then fine, wich is a small comfit.
<Yagisan> LaserJock, I see coloured spots that don't exist
<lecaros> humnmm
<LaserJock> you brain is making the spots?
<Yagisan> apparently so. It apprears to be an "occular migrane" basically something goes wrong with the blood vessels in the vision part of my brain
<LaserJock> is it treatable?
<Yagisan> to be honest - as far as I know only by taking drugs every day - which I'm not keen on. I'm trying to get a neurologist appoitment set up
<Yagisan> pretend I can spell
<mhz> Hi there
<LaserJock> pretend I can read ;-)
<mhz> https://launchpad.net/people/mhz-esfera
<mhz> How could that happen?
<mhz> it even has all my initials
<lecaros> jeje fuiste t...
<mhz> and I do have an email account on Esfera server
<mhz> lecaros: not that i know of
<lecaros> and has your name, and surname
<LaserJock> mhz: maybe you have a stalker :-)
<mhz> geee! the problems we have for being so famous!!
<lecaros> hahahaha, but it's Mauricio Hernandez Z., just like you
<ball> hello ogra
<ball> Anyone here happen to know what kind of boot ROM I might use to turn a PC into a graphical terminal for use with edubuntu?
<ball> (I'm just going back to the "Getting Started" page now...
<ball> ...but I thought I'd ask since I was here).
<ogra> doesnt the card have PXE support ? 
<ogra> try https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BoothingThinClientsWithoutPXE 
<ball> These will probably be pre-PXE machines.
<ball> ...unless I buy new graphical terminals, which sounds expensive.
<ball> ROM-o-matic.net looks useful.
<ball> Hmm... need an EPROM programmer too, but those are handy things to have laying around anyway.
<ball> Is it sensible to have the graphical terminals on a separate Ethernet than the one the "server" host will use to connect to the outside world?
<ogra> yep
<ball> hello arkan0x
<ball> ogra: happen to know how large the EPROM should be, capacity-wise?
<ogra> nope
<ogra> but i guess bigger than the image you want to store on it would be a good start :)
<ball> ogra: but I'm not sure what size Ethernet cards take.
<ogra> have a look at the ltsp.org wiki ... its very likely there is some info
<ball> thanks
<Burgundavia> morning ogra
<ogra> morning 
<ball> Do people normally have hard disks in their graphical terminals for edubuntu then?
<ogra> nope
<ball> ogra: oh, PXE?
<ogra> yep
<ogra> and no disks
<ball> having no disks is a Good Thing
<ball> Oh well, I'm off to bed now.  Thanks for your help ogra.
<ball> part #edubuntu thanks
<Yagisan> G'day spacey. That server, it's not comming back is it ?
<Burgundavia> ogra: is there a spec about an edubuntu grid?
<ogra> grid ?
<Burgundavia> load balancing on multiple edubuntu servers
<ogra> nope
<ogra> there is no sane solution for that yet
<Burgundavia> my crack idea was to have it work across an entire lab, with a mix of thin and fat clients
<Burgundavia> but that is just a little more work
<ogra> talk to neuralis, he made a study about it
<Burgundavia> just thought about it reading that email that mdz forwarded from debian-edu
<ogra> you need to patch around a lot in th eernel 
<ogra> *kernel
<ogra> my plan is to once have it in automatically... but thats still far in the future ... wont happen until we have custering stuff in the kernel
<Burgundavia> isn't that what fabbione keeps grinding away at?
<ogra> nope
<ogra> thats cluster filesystem 
<Burgundavia> ah
<ogra> which we could use as well, but wont help the issue
<ogra> you eed something like openmosix (or the successor ... forgot the name)
<ogra> as long as linus doesnt think about including it, our kernel wont have it
<Burgundavia> yep, fun
<lucasvo> is the cluster code really that bad? or why doesn't he like it?
<ogra> its written for 2.4 and its intrusive ...
<lucasvo> ah, yes. right, they haven't ported it to version 2.6
<ogra> they have, but in a very crappy manner ... 
<ogra> it needs a new implementation instead of a port 
<ogra> it must honor 2.6 and fit in cleanly ... which the ported code doesnt
<Yagisan> so true
<Yagisan> that's why I dropped it when I went to 2.6
<Yagisan> IIRC only one person is porting it (openmosix) to 2.6
<lucasvo> ogra: but that ram-cluster will get included into edgy?
<ogra> ram cluster ? 
<lucasvo> sharing ram between clients and server?
<lucasvo> cluster is the wrong term
<ogra> how would that work ? 
<ogra> if i could access the servers ram from a client, localdevices and direct alsa support would be trivial :) you could even use dri without the need for local apps
<lucasvo> ogra: instead of storing tmp files in swap store it in the ram of a thin clien?
<Yagisan> a virtual numa system ?
<ogra> you mean a swap server
<ogra> yes, rodarvus will implement that
<lucasvo> exactly
<ogra> but thats only exported swapfiles ... 
<lucasvo> I'm about to buy a new cell phone, which one should I buy? 
<Burgundavia> lucasvo: one with linux
* ogra looks at the channel topic and wonders which one would run edubuntu :P
<lucasvo> :)
<lucasvo> Burgundavia: as long as it is affordable and works in CH...
<Yagisan> I spend 4 months trying to get a linux phone is OZ. Couldn't get one :(
<Amaranth> ogra: looks like i'm going to have to tap into python-pam sooner than i thought
<Amaranth> ogra: i have to switch to the willowng user on my own
<Amaranth> or i could wimp out and create the pid file in the init script :P
<pc22> hello all
<Amaranth> hi
<pc22>  whats the easiest ftp server to use (graphic) if ever?
<pc22>  whats the easiest ftp server to use (graphic) if ever?
<pc22> sorry
<Amaranth> i don't think there is a graphical ftp server
<pc22> ok
<Amaranth> i think pure-ftpd uses your regular user accounts though
<Amaranth> so it should largely be an install and forget kind of thing
<Amaranth> is gthumb larger than f-spot?
<Amaranth> it appears to be...
<Burgundavia> Amaranth: gthumb also has the issue of being basically unmaintained
<Amaranth> true
<Amaranth> and i asked in the wrong channel :P
<Amaranth> was reading #ubuntu-desktop then switched over here to talk for something reason
<Burgundavia> it mostly all the same people anyway
<Amaranth> the real problem is migration
<Amaranth> yeah
<Burgundavia> yep, but I heard from the hores mouth (lewing) that that problem would be solved within the edgy cycle
<Burgundavia> anyway, I need to sleep
<Burgundavia> night
<ajmitch> Amaranth: depends what you need migrated
<Amaranth> ajmitch: every piece of data in gthumb that has an equivalent in f-spot
* ajmitch has been discussing this f-spot in edgy in 4-5 channels now :)
<Amaranth> oh wtf
<Amaranth> now my app dies trying to close a non-existent fd
<ajmitch> hi rodarvus 
<rodarvus> good morning
<rodarvus> hi ajmitch!
<Amaranth> arg
<Amaranth> so close, yet so far
<Amaranth> got the init script figured out, python policy junk, now the two pieces won't speak to each other
<pc22> good morning
* mode/#edubuntu [+o highvoltage]  by ChanServ
* mode/#edubuntu [-o highvoltage]  by highvoltage
<sbalneav> morning all
<sbalneav> ogra: ping
<rodarvus> sbalneav, morning!
<sbalneav> Morning rodarvus!!!
<sbalneav> How's it going?
<highvoltage> hi rodarvus and sbalneav :)
<sbalneav> hey highvoltage 
<sbalneav> Where's not an infobot in this channel, is there?
<highvoltage> there is one, with data, but not on the channe currently
<highvoltage> i ran it off my pc when i still had an internet connection at home
<highvoltage> wanna host it? :)
<sbalneav> I was just going to say.  What kind is it, a supybot?
<highvoltage> Knab
<rodarvus> highvoltage, hi there!
<highvoltage> Knab is very similar to infobot
<sbalneav> Sure, I'd host it.  I host the ltspbot.
<rodarvus> sbalneav, all fine - just lurking a little while on irc (and working too), while I wait for the wife to get ready ;)
<highvoltage> rodarvus: i see from edgy-changes that you've settled into the new job quite nicely ;)
<highvoltage> sbalneav: cool. I'll upload it when I'm back home on Friday
<sbalneav> tarball it to sbalneav@ltsp.org
<rodarvus> highvoltage, yeah, I have to - otherwise there will be thousands of users on my foot :)
<highvoltage> people have been asking for edubuntu girl to be back for a long time.
<rodarvus> well, wife is calling - gotta leave!
<highvoltage> heh
<rodarvus> see you all
<highvoltage> bye!
<sbalneav> nye
<sbalneav> bye
<sbalneav> well, popping up to make breakfast.  be on later.
<bddebian> Howdy
<trevor_> does anyone know a good way to set up a dual boot of windows xp and Ubuntu from seperate hard drives?
* mhz has never used dual boot with XP, and...he uses Edubuntu :D
<Yagisan> trevor_, have you tried the obvious ?
<Yagisan> trevor_, install windows of fist disk
<Yagisan> then install (ed/k)ubuntu on the second
<Yagisan> and tell grub to install on the first disk ?
<Yagisan> it might/might not work - but that would be the first thing I try
<Yagisan> assuming I was paid enough to install windows ;)
<mhz> and the wiki has tons of examples, i am sure
<mhz> wiki.ubuntu.com
<trevor_> i looked this up beforehand...and read an article by one guy who said NOT to install GRUB to the primary HD, and that it was possible to use 
<trevor_> bootpart" from windows and edit the boot.ini
<trevor_> any way to install GRUB to the windows disc without doing a clean sweep?
<Yagisan> trevor_, what makes you think installing grub wipes your disk ?
<trevor_> no, i mean without re-installing linux
<Yagisan> trevor_, IIRC it's sudo grub-install <disk/to/install/on>
* mhz wonders why Windows does not have IRC support for users who want to dual boot with Linux...it is so unfair :D
<Yagisan> mhz, because their bootloader can't load two versions of windows without haveing issues
<mhz> exactly!
<mhz> that is why I say it is unfair. 
<trevor_> okay, a second question. Say i treat my Linux as my primary drive, and windows as the slave...how do I make grub recognize the windows disc?
<mhz> I remember that once a user got angry with me because I had no idea how to dual boot. He said "why are you here to give support then if you dont want to tell me how to dual boot?""
<mhz> trevor_: grub will
<trevor_> since I already have GRUB on the linux disc, i can just have that be my main boot
<trevor_> and since I won't be transfering any files between the discs, i can keep them on the same IDE channel?
<mhz> trevor_: what version of edubuntu are you planning to run?
<trevor_> i am actually just runnign the plain Ubuntu
<trevor_> 6.06 LTS
<Yagisan> trevor_, oh, plain ubuntu ...
<trevor_> difference?
<mhz> trevor_: and how did you get to this channel?
<trevor_> Konversation just pointed me this way
<mhz> trevor_: well, not many, but diff objectives and spices
<mhz> trevor_: Edubuntu is aimed to help teachers, students and lab admins to implement Lab solutions for schools and alike
<mhz> hence, applications are aimed to educational purposes
<trevor_> i am just a home user
<trevor_> i have only really expirimented with linux via Live CDs before now...but took a liking to Ubuntu
<Yagisan> trevor_,  it's best to let the (ed/k)ubuntu installer set up dual boot when you install it
<trevor_> I guess I will try having Linux as my primary boot/OS and Windows the slave...if that doesn't work...continue doing the whole "crack the case open and manually fix it" thing
<Yagisan> trevor_, you don't need to do that
<Yagisan> trevor_, just install windows first (if needed)
<Yagisan> then install (ed/k)ubuntu to the other drive
<trevor_> just boot with GRUB instead of NTLDR from the main drive then?
* mode/#edubuntu [+o highvoltage]  by ChanServ
* mode/#edubuntu [-o highvoltage]  by highvoltage
<bddebian> re
<highvoltage> re
<bddebian> Heya highvoltage
<highvoltage> heya bddebian!
* highvoltage goes to bath
<HedgeMage> Wow, I walk in and all the fun starts ;)
<bddebian> Heh, hi HedgeMage
<HedgeMage> hi bddebian :)
* mode/#edubuntu [+o highvoltage]  by ChanServ
* mode/#edubuntu [-o highvoltage]  by highvoltage
<highvoltage> ugh, closed laptop lid as i picked it up :)
<splashx> hey, could anyone explain why dvd iso is 3.3gb if cds (install and live) has ~700mb each one? 
<splashx> i looked for the contents but i couldn't find a especific explanation..
<splashx> .list file is too huge..
<splashx> what else dvd iso has? :~
<highvoltage> the DVD contains the entire 'main' section, afaik
<splashx> well, i need to check what i'll need to use then..
<pygi> HedgeMage, :)))))
* pygi tickles HedgeMage ;)
<mhz> hehehe
<HedgeMage> hi pygi :)
<pygi> hey mhz, HedgeMage ;)
<mhz> the spray!!!
<mhz> pygi: hi there
* HedgeMage sprays pygi with tickle-repellant
* mhz is migrating wiki sites
* HedgeMage smooches mhz and hands him a backup can
<HedgeMage> I should be back for real about Tuesday
* mhz loves HedgeMage 
<HedgeMage> Hubby is getting some leave from work :)
* HedgeMage beams at mhz 
<mhz> oh, nice
<mhz> leaves are nice when love's around
* pygi decides to leave #edubuntu for good
<mhz> pygi: !
<mhz> come on!
* mhz loves pygi too!
<mhz> HedgeMage: he did leave for good?
<pygi> HedgeMage, please jabber, I need to talk to you about something
#edubuntu 2007-07-23
<RichEd> hey jsgotangco
<RichEd> hi Burgundavia
<Burgundavia> hey RichEd
<jsgotangco> hi
<jsgotangco> hmmm
<jsgotangco> having an all-nighter?
<ogra> jsgotangco, its note even 4pm here :)
<jsgotangco> oh i guess you're all in portland then ;-)
<RichEd> jsgotangco: RichEd & ogra from this channel ... yes indeed
<ari_stress> morning all :)
<johnny> hi folks
<johnny> is there a better channel than here for ubuntu ltsp ?
<Dante123> Hi all....anyone here know much about library automation and open source library management systems?
<ari_stress> johnny: what do you mean? this channel is good
<johnny> just wondering if it was
<ari_stress> or #ltsp for generic question
<johnny> i'm getting an error  when booting
<johnny>   nfsmount: need a path
<ari_stress> Dante123: i've just read about it, let me remember about it
<johnny> booting a client that is
<ari_stress> johnny: was it working ok previously?
<johnny> no
<johnny> now i'm dumped in an ash shell
<ari_stress> ok, possible configuration problem
<johnny> not possible
<johnny> definitely :)
<ari_stress> ok :)
<ari_stress> well, as far as i know
<ari_stress> edubuntu ltsp is work out of the box
<ari_stress> we dont need to set a thing
<ari_stress> did you set anything?
<johnny> yeah.. this is ubuntu
<johnny> not edubuntu
<ari_stress> oww.. then we need to set something
<johnny> ubuntu server and ubuntu clients
<Dante123> Hi all....anyone here know much about library automation and open source library management systems?
<johnny> if edubuntu had existed when this box was setup, we'd be using it
<ari_stress> Dante123: let me thing about it for a minute. my brain isn't dual core yet :)
<johnny> i'm having an issue due to two configuration oddities
<johnny> one.. in that i'm using both ppc and i386 clients on an amd64 server
<Dante123> okay....I've seen Koho website...but wondering what else is available and maybe some ubuntu support or install files available
<johnny> and the 2nd in that i'm using dnsmasq  for dhcp/caching dns/tftp
<ari_stress> Dante123: here's some good url: http://library.rider.edu/scholarly/ecorrado/il2004/ossfeatures.html http://eprints.rclis.org/8074/
<ari_stress> Dante123: oh ubuntu? ok let me search my ubuntu, i remember seeing something like that
<ari_stress> Dante123: sorry, i cannot find anything about library in my ubuntu. i guess the above mentioned urls are a good starting point
<ari_stress> johnny: oh two different clients?
<ari_stress> then you need special steps
<johnny> yes, i'm sure of i t
<Dante123> ok thanks
<ari_stress> in building the client environment
<johnny> well i'm ignoring ppc for now
<johnny> until i get i386 working
<johnny> since i am far more familiar with i386
<ari_stress> johnny: let me get the reference, i read about it once
<johnny> i think i know how to do it
<johnny> once i  get i386 working
<johnny> it's looking in /scripts/nfs-premount but i see nothing in   there
<johnny> i thought it was a file, but it seems to be a directory
<ari_stress> oh ok
<ari_stress> but i suspect the i386 isnt working, because the server is 64?
<johnny> doubtful
<johnny> other people have done it
<johnny> you just need to have a client built
<johnny> the problme i'm getting now is that my rootpath: seems empty
<johnny> it seems set .. but i  can'te tell
<johnny> should my client hae an empty /etc/fstab ?
<Dante123> looks like KOHA is the best
<ari_stress> Dante123: really?
<ari_stress> johnny: what do you mean? the client is diskless right?
<sbalneav> ari_stress: Can you paste your /etc/ltsp/dhcpd.conf?
<johnny> yes.. i meant in the /opt/ltsp
<johnny> the mounted directory
<johnny> it's loading the kernel
<johnny> but it can't mount the root fs
<ari_stress> sbalneav: ok
<sbalneav> Paste it to the pastebin
<sbalneav> !pastebin
<ubotu> pastebin is a service to post large texts so you don't flood the channel. The Ubuntu pastebin is at http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org (make sure you give us the URL for your paste - see also the #ubuntu channel topic)
<ari_stress> sbalneav: it's http://pastebin.com/m3e172158
<ari_stress> sbalneav: thanks for being so patient with me :)
<ari_stress> sbalneav: it's a standard dhcpd.conf from ltsp5, i just add some lines at the above
<sbalneav> what's your /etc/exports file look like?
<sbalneav> So, you've got a 64 bit server?
<sbalneav> did you build the chroot with --arch i386?
<ari_stress> sbalneav: you talking to me?
* sbalneav looks around
<sbalneav> Don't see anyone else with a problem :)
<ari_stress> sbalneav: :D
<ari_stress> sbalneav: i'm using 32bit for the server
<sbalneav> ok
<ari_stress> sbalneav: the client can boot OK
<ari_stress> sbalneav: if I don't use those dhcp-dns-dynamic-update
<sbalneav> oh, are you the guy on the lists?
<ari_stress> sbalneav: but when i add those lines in dhcpd.conf for dynamic update, the client got the IP, but cannot load tftp
<ari_stress> sbalneav: yes, i'm fajar on the list :D
<sbalneav> k, why do dynamic, and complicate things?  Why not just statically define all your ltsp hosts in dns?
<ari_stress> sbalneav: that's exactly i'm thinking. but since he's the one has the money, i as consultant can just do my best to provide it
<ari_stress> but, i take it as a challenge. i always believe in foss, and i'm sure it can mimic the feature of MS W2k feature
<ari_stress> it's just me that dont know the sytax/conf correctly yet
<sbalneav> I'm sure you can too, but WHY? What does DYNAMICALLY assigning a hostname give you, over simply pre-defining them?
<ari_stress> sbalneav: you are right, it's over kill feature for ltsp, and dont have any real benefit. but...
<ari_stress> he wants it for the rest of the network too
<johnny>   the erroring i'm geting is tht it's trying to run /scripts/nfs-premount  and says nfsmount: need a path
<ari_stress> some of the network dont use ltsp, that's why he wants the dynamic thing
<johnny> sbalneav, any ideas?
<sbalneav> johnny: Ah, so it's YOU who's having the booting problem.
<johnny> it's loading the kernel
<sbalneav> johnny: paste your /etc/ltsp/dhcpd.conf file.
<johnny> i don't have one
<johnny> i'm using dnsmasq
<sbalneav> ari_stress: You getting paid to research this?
<sbalneav> johnny: Good luck with that.
<johnny> it's already booting the kernel
<johnny> so i'm not sure what it has to do with anything
<johnny> where is the nfsmount root defined?
<sbalneav> in the dhcpd.conf file
<sbalneav> it's passed as an option from dhcp
<sbalneav> dnsmasq doesn't handle that option.
<sbalneav> so, the client has no idea where it's root drive is.
<ari_stress> sbalneav: i'm an employee of a linux consultant. my boss who is get the big money, i'm just my monthly salary
<sbalneav> johnny: so, dnsmasq isn't going to work.
<johnny> i've heard of folks doing it thus the reason why i tried
<sbalneav> Where have you "heard" this?
<sbalneav> The only way it would work is if you hacked up the initramfs, and hardcoded a bunch of values.
<johnny> http://www.quixotic.org.uk/Articles/LTSP.shtml
<johnny> aha..had that one, but in another dnsmasq config file
<sbalneav> That looks like he's doing it for the older ltsp 4.2
<sbalneav> Any reason why you want to use dnsmasq over the standard dhcpd?
<johnny> cuz dnsmasq is an awesome package and i was already familiar with it.. run it on every network
<sbalneav> Ah, so just personal preference.
<sbalneav> Well, your options are: hack dnsmasq to supply the option you need (root-path) or, hack the initramfs to hardcode the root path.
<johnny> its showing up now
<johnny> it says rootpath : 192.168.1.5:/otp/ltsp/i386 now :)
<sbalneav> Well, according to the manpage on it I saw, it didn't support that option.  Maybe newer ones do.
<johnny> it's still not booting, but at least that isn't empty
<johnny> yeah.. it read that too
<johnny> i*
<johnny> but newer versions fixed that
<sbalneav> ditch the 192...., and just have /optl/ltsp/i386
<sbalneav> /opt/ltsp/i386
<sbalneav> Someone should tell them to update the manpage on the dnsmasq site then :)
<johnny> it shows rootpath: /opt/ltsp/i386 but it still says nfsmount:need a path
<sbalneav> Here's the question: does it boot if you use the stock dhcpd?
<johnny> i'll try after my users get off the network
<johnny> prolly 5 min
<johnny> aha.. it loads nbi
<johnny> image
<johnny> hi?
<johnny> test..
<johnny> sbalneav, you here?
<sbalneav> Yep
<johnny> just had to add these
<johnny> dhcp-vendorclass=etherboot,Etherboot
<johnny> dhcp-vendorclass=pxe,PXEClient
<johnny> hcp-boot=net:pxe,/i386/pxelinux.0
<johnny> dhcp-boot=net:etherboot,/i386/nbi.img
<johnny> with different file paths
<johnny> obviously
<johnny> but it was booting
<johnny> sbalneav, what is the most acceptable way to enable autologin ?
<johnny> for each machine to different accounts
<sbalneav> You'll need gadi's patched ldm.
<johnny> how come it is not in there by default?
<sbalneav> Because autologin under ldm wasn't developed until recently.
<sbalneav> I'm working on the ldm2 rewrite, and autologin will be a part of that, for gutsy.
<johnny> ldm ?
<johnny> is that a fork of gdm?
<johnny> or?
<johnny> it looks similiar
<johnny> well i'm interested in the patch
<sbalneav> No, it's a completely ltsp-developed display manager.
<sbalneav> Unlike most display managers, it runs on the client, and not the server.
<johnny> aha..
<johnny> so how does it pull its options?
<sbalneav> check the edubuntu and ltsp-discuss mailing lists, the link to the patched ldm's been posted there.
<sbalneav> through lts.conf
<johnny> lts.conf .. never seen it
<johnny> oh i see it now
<johnny> neato..
<johnny> is that what i should use then?
<johnny> for having workstations logging in by  workstationname/workstationname
<johnny>  user/pass
<sbalneav> you'll have to set up a username and password for each workstation in the lab
<sbalneav> Personally, I'm adding the feature under duress. :) As far as I'm concerned, it's a HUGE security hole.
<sbalneav> But people seem to want it, so we're adding it.
<johnny> security hole for who?
<johnny> for the client? or the server?
<sbalneav> For the whole network.
<johnny> it is definitely something i want to understand
<sbalneav> It breaks the chain of authority.
<sbalneav> The "One person, one userid" rule.
<johnny> oh
<johnny> these are public terminals
<sbalneav> Excellent.
<johnny> nobody needs an account
<johnny> so user ids will never work here
<johnny> if we ever get a new box
<johnny> then maybe we'll offer some local storage
<johnny> atm we'll just be clearing it every night
<johnny> so does that security issue apply to me? and can it be exploited to get root on the box?
<sbalneav> So, I just walk up, sent an email death threat to <national head of state> and walk away, and when <national police force> comes calling, and comes to you looking to know WHO logged in to that terminal WHEN, you say.....
<sbalneav> what?
<sbalneav> I've never seen a "public access area" that didn't have SOME way of handling a login.
<sbalneav> At my public library, you sign in with your librarycard number, and PIN.
<sbalneav> etc.
<johnny> not here
<johnny> never has been
<sbalneav> not here, what?
<johnny> no signups
* sbalneav shrugs
<sbalneav> Same thing if any local root exploit is discovered.
<johnny> sure
<sbalneav> they're on the box, with no way for you to know WHO did it.
<johnny> yep.. same as the way they were running before then
<sbalneav> Now you know the risks.
<johnny> i knew those ones
<johnny> i just wanted to know if there were risks specifically with the way the autologin works
<sbalneav> none extra.
<johnny> ok cool
<sbalneav> The existing ones are huge enough. :)
<johnny> sure
<johnny> at least we have a good backup procedure
<johnny> we don't even take pictures inside the shop without consent of everybody inside
<sbalneav> lol
<johnny> one of the collective members helps run the imc network
<johnny> and they make sure not to log IP addresses for any of the  IMC sites in the network
<sbalneav> Well, late here, I've committed my patches, so I'm of to bed.
<sbalneav> night all
<sbalneav> Morning all
<juliux> morning sbalneav
<sbalneav> hi juliux
<sgonzalez> My edubuntu 7.04 server is requiring me to put my password in twice when I log in. My admin GUI tools seem broken by this (are they looking for the password twice also?) I also see this when I'm using the command line, but it just asks twice and then lets me use tools. Any ideas? This happened after I set up the server to authenticate against Active Directory. I am trying to log in using a local admin account (not an AD account.)
<sbalneav> sgonzalez: You might want to look in your pam.d files
<sbalneav> You're probably missing a try_first_pass in there somewhere.
<sbalneav> i.e., in common-auth, for ldap auth, you'll want something like:
<sbalneav> auth    sufficient      pam_ldap.so
<sbalneav> auth    required        pam_unix.so nullok_secure try_first_pass
<sgonzalez> What should I look for in them? I edited common-account, common-auth, common-password and common-session. Any suggestions on where to start and what to look for? I followed the same directions using ubuntu 6.06 and had no issues like this.
<sgonzalez> sbalneav: Ah, just reading your post. Will look there.
<sbalneav> How about pasting your common-* to the pastebin?
<sbalneav> !pastebin
<ubotu> pastebin is a service to post large texts so you don't flood the channel. The Ubuntu pastebin is at http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org (make sure you give us the URL for your paste - see also the #ubuntu channel topic)
<sgonzalez> sbalneav: Thanks! That worked. Saved me a bunch of looking!
<sbalneav> np
<cbx33> heheh
<cbx33> me has
<cbx33> auth    required       pam_usb.so
<cbx33> hehehe
<sbalneav> Ah, yeah, saw your blogpost.
<sbalneav> Very cool.
<cbx33> hehe
<sbalneav> brb
<sbalneav> back
<sbalneav> back
<LaserJock> bdoin: any exciting stuff in the new gcompris release
<bdoin> not really
<bdoin> we are more focused on olpc port that adding new features
<bdoin> but since distro are always slow packaging things, there are probably still new things going through the pipe ;)
<bdoin> do you know our wordprocessor, internal and local irc chat
<bdoin> ?
<sbalneav> LaserJock: hey, saw the blog post the other day!  Wasn't aware you had burned out!
<LaserJock> sbalneav: no?
<LaserJock> bdoin: no, I haven't seen that
<sbalneav> You're scaling back though, right?
<LaserJock> sbalneav: "no?" as in, you haven't heard?
<LaserJock> sbalneav: yes, scaling back, at least for now, almost completely
<sbalneav> Well, good for you.
<sbalneav> Get your PhD done.
<sbalneav> That's way more important.
<LaserJock> sbalneav: oh, while you're here. there is a new nbd version from Debian available
<Patrick_> hello, could somebody tll me what i have to do to make usb sticks working on the LTSP clienes ?
<sbalneav> Patrick_: If you have a stock edubuntu server install, they should work out of the box.
<sbalneav> LaserJock: Ping
<LaserJock> sbalneav: hola
<sbalneav> Off the top of your head, who would I go to to add a couple of packages to the edubuntu-bugsquad?
<sbalneav> I'm thinking sabayon and pesselus
<sbalneav> ogra?
<LaserJock> I can do it
<LaserJock> in fact I think anybody in ~edubuntu-bugsquad can do it
<sbalneav> Only if you have time.
<LaserJock> ~edubuntu-bugs rather
<LaserJock> sbalneav: pesselus is already there
<LaserJock> sbalneav: did you figure out how to add them?
<LaserJock> ogra: are you really here? :-)
<ogra> LaserJock, in portland, yes
<LaserJock> ogra: I uploaded edubuntu-addon-meta to NEW
<ogra> how's life ?
<ogra> yay
<ogra> \o/
<LaserJock> life is really busy
<ogra> i added gobby to -desktop yesterday
<sbalneav> LaserJock: No, I'm a moron. :(
<sbalneav> grrr
<LaserJock> sbalneav: it's ok, I'll show you
<sbalneav> I'm sure it's something obvious, I'm just not seeing
<LaserJock> ogra: I have the patch ready for debian-cd so as soon as I get edubuntu-addon-meta into Main (I assume it has to be in Main) then I'll give it to colin
<LaserJock> sbalneav: go to the sabayon LP page
<LaserJock> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/sabayon
<sbalneav> ah, well, you're right, sabayon is listed on the +package-bugs page
<sbalneav> argh
<sbalneav> pessellus
* sbalneav slaps forehead
<LaserJock> under Actions on the left sidebar hit Bugmail Settings
<sbalneav> shutup balneaves and just do what the man with the laser says
<LaserJock> Under "Team bug contacts" you should see Edubuntu Bugsuad
<LaserJock> *squad
<sbalneav> got it.
<sbalneav> it's there now.
<sbalneav> Thanks!
<LaserJock> "Teach the man to fish ...."
<sbalneav> Build a man a fire, and you'll keep him warm for an evening.
<sbalneav> Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
<LaserJock> lol
<ogra> *grin*
<LaserJock> ogra: if I have time I'll look at the new versions of gcompris, and tuxpaint* and see if there's anything worth merging
<ogra> are there new versions ?
<ogra> i can do that as well i think
<LaserJock> according to merges.ubuntu.com
<ogra> ah
<ogra> i didnt follw that
<ogra> no coding time at al here
<ogra> but sbalneav is coding like mad
<LaserJock> there is a new nbd too
<LaserJock> going from 2.9.3 to 2.9.5
<ogra> that should have our fixes
<ogra> i'll look t it next week
<LaserJock> ogra: I'll look at gcompris and tuxpaint* . I don't want to get rusty ;-)
<LaserJock> I should be able to do those this evening I think
<ogra> heh, ok
<ogra> if you insist :)
<sbalneav> ok off home
<sbalneav> night all
<LaserJock> ogra: well, I gotta keep my core-dev credentials up ;-)
<LaserJock> I haven't worked in Universe for some time now
<Dante123> Hi all.....I am a teacher and I am looking at setting up Koha library management software on a PIII 800mhz computer......should I be running edubuntu on that or go with the ubuntu already installed?  Koha uses mysql.....I have done lots of ubuntu desktop installs....no server installs....Edubuntu is a server edition correct?
<LaserJock> hi RichEd
<RichEd> hi LaserJock
<LaserJock> Dante123: actually Edubuntu is a desktop install with some server stuff added to it
<RichEd> Dante123: edubuntu is an either or
<LaserJock> Dante123: well, I guess I should clarify. It uses the alternate-disk like installer
<LaserJock> but it installs a full desktop
<RichEd> it has a bunch of educational software and edu games that install by default onto the desktop ... so it is a good idea to try it out in the library
<LaserJock> Dante123: it already has Ubuntu installed on it?
<Dante123> will it have server stuff with it too....in case I want to setup another computer to use the search features of Koha
<Dante123> Yes, I had ubuntu on it before....just to try and show the kids something other than WINDOZE
<LaserJock> yes, you can install LAMP (Linux Apache MySQL PhP/Python) with the Edubuntu Classroom Server CD
<LaserJock> you can also do it all from your existing Ubuntu installation
<LaserJock> an easy way to get the server stuff from an Edubuntu/Ubuntu install is to use tasksel in a terminal
<LaserJock> you just run tasksel and then select what tasks you want to install, like LAMP Server and Edubuntu desktop
<LaserJock> and it'll install all the needed packages
<LaserJock> Dante123: and  if you want educational apps in 7.04 you can get the Edubuntu Classroom Server Addon CD, burn it, and pop it in
<LaserJock> ogra: is that ( -devel ) regarding the Desktop CD?
<ogra> yup
<Dante123> well....if I can run taskel from terminal and add LAMP...then that would be great......and I'd leave ubuntu 7.04 on there
<ogra> seems its done
<ogra> (as i promised you) :)
<Dante123> if i choose edubuntu desktop.....and lamp......the configuration of everything else will remain the same right?
<Dante123> okay i am running tasksel....so what should I add.....besides LAMP and Edubuntu Desktop?
<LaserJock> that's it
<LaserJock> unless you want to run an LTSP server
<LaserJock> then you could also do Edubuntu server
<LaserJock> ogra: so does it automatically look at the contents of the LiveCD or do we have to manually adjust it?
<Dante123> do I deselect the ubuntu desktop if I am adding the edubuntu one and I already have ubuntu?  Also what about DNS server....I don't think I need that now or yet
<ogra> LaserJock, it automatically builds an intersection for -desktop vs -live
<ogra> and installs the result
<LaserJock> ogra: sweet
<ogra> yeah
<ogra> colin made a mathematical formula out of it when we discussed it very impressing
<LaserJock> heh
<LaserJock> I guess that's why we pay him the big bucks
<ogra> yeah
<johnny> hi does anybody here know where that patch is to allow autologin ?
<johnny> in ldm
<johnny> i tried googling the ltsp list, but i only found references
#edubuntu 2007-07-24
<ogra> its on launchpad
<RichEd> ogra: can you help johnny ?
<ogra> yes, gimme a sec
<ogra> if LP would work ...
<ogra> johnny, http://codebrowse.launchpad.net/~gideon/ltsp/gadi-ldm-dash-ltsp/revision/gadi%40ltsp.org-20070521205254-ek710bofdpdtlwlz?start_revid=gadi%40ltsp.org-20070606134809-ekni9p4n6tm09dn8
<ogra> in the installed client system the file is located in /opt/ltsp/i386/usr/sbin/ldm
<RichEd> thanks ogra :)
<johnny> sorry for asking the same question
<johnny> wasn't sure anybody was going to answer
<ari_stress> wazzup everyone :)
<ogra> jinty, !
<jinty> hoi ogra
<ogra> where are your schooltool packages ?
<jinty> in a repository for you
<ogra> i'll be able to look at them next week (currently i'm at ubuntulive)
<ogra> cool :)
<jinty> deb-src http://ftp.schooltool.org/schooltool/archives/debian/ unstable main
* ogra will do a review week next week, somehow it starts to stack up
<jinty> as you like, they're there
<ogra> noted down ...
<jinty> I'll be pushing out later releases as they come
<ogra> sadly the conf keeps me very busy
<jinty> no worries
<jinty> just let me know how it goes
* jinty gotta go to bed
<ogra> so i wont be able to actually tke a in-depth look before the weekend (if jetlag allows :) )
<ogra> ah, right, 2am in europe
<ogra> sleep tight :)
<leetcharmer> hello :D
<leetcharmer> I would like to share a partition on my network
<leetcharmer> but I can't edit it currently
<leetcharmer> how do I change permissions
<leetcharmer> so it can be used openly?
<sbalneav> Evening all
<Tom47> we installed x11vnc and now are experiencing PXE-32:TFTP open timeout probs .... not sure what to do next given in iability to get better diagnosics
<Tom47> client ran previously
<sbalneav> So, the client won't boot at all now?
<Tom47> no it comes up with the pxe error message
<Tom47> apparently this meansThe PXE client was able to get a DHCP address and a boot file name, but timed out when attempting to download the boot file using TFTP or MTFTP
<sbalneav> Do you have a stock edubuntu install, other than the addition of X11vnc?  Or have you changed the tftp server?
<Tom47> yes .... actually dont understand why thex11vnc was not installed as part of standard install of edubuntu
<sbalneav> Yes... you changed the tftp server, or yes, it's a stock install.
<Tom47> we have installed other things mind, but the only change from a working client to a non working one was the installation of x11vnc and nano on the client
<Tom47> stock install
<sbalneav> Well, lets see if the tftp server's running
<Tom47> as ar as we know we did not touch tftp at all knowingly anyway
<sbalneav> netstat -an | grep :69
<Tom47> ok just a sec ... need to contact the place where the server is brb
<sbalneav> x11vnc puts a lot of load on the thin client, and is a potential security hole.
<sbalneav> Therefore, it's not installed by default.
<Tom47> oic
<Tom47> we did not see that
<Tom47> the person that has the server is tied up for 20 minutes .... will get him in here if possible when he finishes x-raying a dog
<sbalneav> I'll be on for another hour or so.
<Tom47> ok ty very much ... whats next if the server is running?
<sbalneav> We step though a debugging procedure.
<Tom47> tftp server i meant
<Tom47> ok
<sbalneav> check cables, hubs, etc.
<sbalneav> check you didn't install any firewall software that might have blocked the port, etc.
<sbalneav> what extra stuff DID you install
<sbalneav> start by telling me that.
<Tom47> hmmmmm ...... he was talking about a firewall at one stage ....
<sbalneav> Well, if he's blocked the tftp server, that would do it.
<Tom47> we hae installed tomcat and an associated application ... this was working and displaying ok on the client
<Tom47> yes ....
<Tom47> we are setting up a verterinary system at his clinic
<Tom47> based on edubuntu server
<Tom47> your mentioning of the firewall is interesting because we were talking about ways to stop users on the clients connecting to the net but still having system administrator access
<sbalneav> I assumed it was a vet clinic.  Unless "x-raying a dog" is some REALLY wierd slang for something I've never heard of before :)
<Tom47> and for some time it looked like the way o go was to set up a firewall/webserver to manage it eg willowng
<Tom47> lol
<sbalneav> You a vet yourself?
<Tom47> in the end we dropped onto using firefox profiles as an adequate way
<Tom47> no
<Tom47> i have been in IT since 1969 and have taken up linux over the past 4 years
<Tom47> the vet and i have been keeping each other moving forward in linux during this time ie a mini lug
<sbalneav> I've been a Unix user since 1985, and a Linux user since 1992
<sbalneav> and a Free software developer since 1999
<Tom47> its a great way to be
<sbalneav> Keeps me out of trouble.
<Tom47> we would prob say it keeps our fingers busy but not nec "out of trouble" :)
<Tom47> is current system is an aging application running on sco unix
<Tom47> his*
<Tom47> edubuntu looks almost ideal as a basis for moving forward
<sbalneav> It's a nice little system.
<sbalneav> I'm one of the LTSP developers, who's slowly become an Edubuntu developer as well.
<Tom47> ah ok .... well am delighted to meet you :)
<Tom47> thanks for your contributions ... def appreciated in this neck of the woods
<sbalneav> No problem.  Happy to help
<Tom47> ok response to netstat was ... udp       0    0 0.0.0.0:69   	0.0.0.0:*
<sbalneav> ok
<sbalneav> so, that means the server's up
<Tom47> ok good
<sbalneav> so, did you get a firewall installed?
<Tom47> it was installed but was removed and the client was running afterwards and in fact immediately befre we installed x11vnx ... which ... i am now reminded we also installed on the srever
<sbalneav> Hm.  Well, if you installed a firewall, and removed it, it might have left some rules around.
<sbalneav> try rebooting the server to clear 'em out.
<Tom47> has happened since but will do again now
<sbalneav> k
<Tom47> he will help us athrough some diagnostics
<Tom47> oos sorry wrong window
<sbalneav> Booted yet?
<Tom47> just trying to get out of him exactly what he did ... yes had rebooted ... am trying to ensure what he is saying is unambiguous
<Tom47> sorry about this he has gone on another consultancy session ... this is not gonna work .... my apologies
<sbalneav> Where are you located?
<Tom47> small rural town in australia
<sbalneav> Is the machine accessible from the internet?
<Tom47> yes i believe so
<Tom47> ok ... no longer getting that pxe error .... its now hanging during the boot of x ... he has a black screen with th cross in the middle
<sbalneav> ah, ok
<sbalneav> farther.
<sbalneav> sudo ltsp-update-sshkeys might fix that for you.
<Tom47> then just a client reboot?
<sbalneav> yep
<Tom47> as to the internet, its of course sitting behind NAT on an adsl router
<sbalneav> That fix it?
<Tom47> ok ty he has a live client again but still getting the "install x11vnc" error message ... bugger
<sbalneav> heh, he wants the vnc to see what's on the screens of the terminals?
<Tom47> yes ... its not critical but thought it would be handy
<Tom47> for diagnostics purposes to save walking aound the clinic to the various workstations to confirm heir status
<sbalneav> did you install it in the chroot?
<Tom47> yep
<sbalneav> you'll need to do a sudo chroot /opt/ltsp/i386
<sbalneav> did you modify the rc.local to get it running on startup?
<inga>  yes
<Tom47> ah hello inga ..... let me itroduce you to sbalneav
<inga> hi
<Tom47> inga is the vet
<sbalneav> Hello
<inga> thre ways was getting difficult
<sbalneav> But you're back up and running now?
<inga> yes am basically back to where we were before attempting x11vnc install
<Tom47> inga sbalneav tells me that the x11vnc is not a standard install element due to security concerns
<sbalneav> Did you make the change to the rc.local file?
<inga> yes as we discussed it is hardly worth the hassle and the security risk
<inga> is there a problem getting rid of it
<Tom47> certainly a way of eliminating the problems with it
<inga> sorry did complete install as per wiki instructions and staed in chroot
<Tom47> make a decision :)
<sbalneav> No, in the chroot doing an apt-get remove x11vnc shouldn't cause you any problems.
<sbalneav> If it's a small clinic, for the added strain it puts on the thin client, a quick walk around may be faster :)
<inga> yep did rc.local bit.
<inga> definitely
<Tom47> do we have a handle on the secs of that client machine ?
<Tom47> specs
<inga> previously it had stopped and restarted with no problems so it is hardly worth the effort.
<sbalneav> the Thin Client Manager will still work, for sending messages, and looking at processes, logging people out, etc.
<Tom47> sounds like an obvious choice o me inga
<inga> I think its is a celeron 800   HP D30
<sbalneav> All you'll miss is the live screenshot.
<inga> sbalneav thx - the live screenshot is of minor importance
<inga> any comments on the keeping the lan off the internet?
<sbalneav> You're behind an adsl firewall?
<sbalneav> our router box?
<inga> yep
<sbalneav> if so, you're already off the internet. :)
<sbalneav> Unless you're wanting to block people INTERNALLY from getting out.
<inga> hmm doesn't seem to work that way. The server has two cards
<inga> yes exactly
<inga> The LAN does not need internet access
<sbalneav> ah, ok, that's a bit harder.  Do you want SOME people to get out, and others not to?
<inga> none at this stage
<sbalneav> Hm, simple iptables rule might do it.
<sbalneav> Off the top of my head, I don't know it, and it's 20 past midnight here, so I'm about ready for bed.  Can you give me an email, and I'll look it up tomorrow and send it to you?
<inga> it is not an area of any expertise on my part - thx i would like that
<inga> inga.edulis@gmail.com
<inga> thanks again
<sbalneav> ok, I'll look it up and send it tomorrow.
<sbalneav> cheers
<sbalneav> night
<delire> wouldn't it be great to see something like this in Edubuntu: http://scratch.mit.edu/ http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070722-new-educational-tool-makes-programming-like-playing-with-lego-bricks.html
<delire> anyone know what license this thing is released under?
<unix4me> How do I install the default ubuntu screensavers in Edubuntu? I want a greater variety than the ones default in edubuntu.
<sbalneav> Morning all
<sgonzalez> morning sbalneav... would you like to fix my issue again today? I'm trying to set up DHCP failover (first time for this) and have followed these directions: http://www.madboa.com/geek/dhcp-failover/. After I put in what I believe to be the right edits into the file, my clients get no IP. I have left the PXE boot info at the bottom, and changed the IPs to follow my network setup.
<sbalneav> Don't know anything about dhcp failover myself.
<sbalneav> Never had it fail before :)
<sgonzalez> I'm just using it for load balancing (well, I want to use it for that anyway!) Thanks anyway... I'll keep hacking away.
<cliebow> sgonzalez, why not have a look at trasks failover http://www.redhat.com/archives/k12osn/2005-October/msg00210.html
<Sly-Guy> Has anyone here worked with dedicated dumb terminals such as the Wyse WinTerms with Edubuntu?
<sgonzalez> cliebow: thanks.... I'll take a look. I think my problem is that the directions I'm following aren't for ltsp and Dave's will be.
<sgonzalez> I'm looking at Dave Trasks's DHCP failover directions and the first thing it says is that it's written for LTSP in single NIC mode. That's something I want to do anyway, so I can start there. However, I can't find instructions on how to do that. Anyone know where there is some?
<cliebow> sgonzalez, i use single nic exclusively..but it is pretty trivial if you have control of dhcp
<sgonzalez> cliebow: is there setup that needs to be done? Or should I just try the DHCP load balancing thing and it should just work? I'm just not sure how to tell DHCP to work on ETH0 instead of ETH1 where it is now.
<cliebow> is there anything in /etc/default to help you..
<cliebow> this is edubuntu then?
<cliebow> can you take out second nic 8~)
<sbalneav> /etc/default/dhcp3-server allows you to set the nic
<cliebow>  sbalneav: o mighty wizard..thank you..
<sbalneav> np
<cliebow> 8~)
<sgonzalez> cliebow: both NICs are onboard.... I don't think I want to unsolder the mother board ;) It is edubuntu 7.04. Will try setting /etc/default/dhcp3-server... advice from the mighty wizard who saved me hours yesterday
<cliebow> good idea..
<cliebow> take it out in the field and smack it with a baseball bat
<sgonzalez> I'll refrain from going Office Space on my server, but thanks for the advice.
<sgonzalez> Tried setting the interface to ETH0 in dhcp3-server, but DHCP wouldn't restart after that. I guess it's off to (UGH) read and learn ;)
<cliebow> sbalneav:got any suggestions for an hp laptop stalling on hda: waiting for dma
<cliebow> sgonzales:make sure your dhcpd.conf reflects the
<cliebow> subnet your nic is set for
<sbalneav> cliebow: you booting from the disc?
<cliebow> yeah..gutsy
<sbalneav> if so, try booting with noacpi
<cliebow> k
<cliebow> heh timed out again..no big deal i guess
<cliebow> boots to a breezy disk ok
<LaserJock> ogra: got a minute?
<LaserJock> ogra: gotta run to work, but I've got a question on tuxpaint translations in the .diff.gz
<LaserJock> bbiab
<LaserJock> ogra: I'm back
<cliebow> LaserJock, ogra's been in #ltsp not long ago..
<LaserJock> cliebow: yeah, I think he's just avoiding me ;-)
<cliebow> heh..
<sgonzalez> cliebow: just wanted to follow up. Got DHCP failover working. My issue was that I hadn't set up the 2 servers; was testing with just the one thinking that I needed to get that one set up before working on the next. Well the primary needs to see the secondary at least once before working, then they'll play together.
<cliebow> -*-*
<ogra> LaserJock, nah ... but i'm about to change rooms back in 30 min or so
<LaserJock> ok
<LaserJock> ping me when you're back
<ogra> will do
<ogra> LaserJock, seems Riddell is just pushing edubuntu-addon-meta through ;)
<ogra> hmm, there is a meeting scheduled tomorrow ... Rich and i will be on planes by then :/
<LaserJock> ogra: wow, I thought it'd take much longer to get edubuntu-addon-meta through
<sbalneav> edubuntu-addon-meta?
<LaserJock> sbalneav: it's a part of my new "take over the educational world" plan
* sbalneav pictures LaserJock in a white Mao suit wit a cat on his lap and a monocle
<LaserJock> "I want sharks ... with freakin' laser beams on their head"
<henn_tech> how can i make requests for the software that's included in the Edubuntu releases?
<sbalneav> "I want a Linux Distribution with.... ONE MILLION LINES OF CODE!"
<sbalneav> You're in the right place.
<sbalneav> Here, or even better (so we don't lose it) on the mailing list
<sbalneav> edubuntu-devel
<LaserJock> henn_tech: we can't make promises of course, but what's your request?
<henn_tech> Well, an option for KDE instead of GNOME.  I'm installing Edubuntu on hundreds of computers at my college, and i think KDE would be a little more user friendly for those who arent too Linux-savvy.
<ogra> sbalneav, i talked to eric yesterday ... he'S about to update k12ltsp ....
<ogra> using ltsp 4 again
<ogra> :/
<sbalneav> That's ok.  Makes a clear choice as to where people want to be.
<ogra> well
<ogra> you will have to support 4.2 eve longer
<ogra> *even
<sbalneav> If you haven't noticed, I'm not really supporting 4.2 anymore :)
<ogra> well
<ogra> jim wont want to drop it
<ogra> (even though i'm hoping to convince him with gutsy ;) )
<cliebow> im getting to be more and more of an anachronism..
<LaserJock> ogra: would it be ok if I did a MIR for edubuntu-menus ? I'd like to do a little work on it before Gutsy is out
<henn_tech> My job is to put open-source software on these computers, and we distribute the computers to people who need them (churches, education institutions). we just had a shipment go to Nigeria. I truly think KDE will be more appealing and encourage new Linux users to continue using it.
<ogra> LaserJock, go ahead :)
<cliebow> henn_tech:xubuntu is nice 8~) too\
<LaserJock> ogra: I'd not installing by default, but it'd be nice to at least get it in Main
<ogra> henn_tech, there is a spec for an edubuntu-kde metapackage
<ogra> but since i have no clue about kde (and dont plan to learn it) and nobody stepped up to do the work yet it isnt happened yet
<ogra> henn_tech, any contribution to that is appreciated :)
<henn_tech> ogra; lol, i wish i could
<ogra> henn_tech, i didnt mean you should, but if you run into people that might have the skills i wont refuse any contribution here ;(
<ogra> err
<ogra> ;)
<ogra> its just that we dont have any kde people in edubuntu ...
<LaserJock> and it's difficult to maintain 2 DEs
<ogra> right
<henn_tech> ok. so it would have to be seperate project, basically?
<ogra> no
<LaserJock> henn_tech: would an educational Addon CD that would install the "edu" stuff on top of Kubuntu be sufficient?
<ogra> we have a spec to define a edubuntu-kde metapackage
<ogra> it will be as official as edubuntu-desktop
<ogra> so you can install that and it turns your edubuntu into a kde system
<ogra> we wont make official kde CDs, but if someone in the community makes a kde based CD with that nobody will cmplain
<henn_tech> LaserJock, ogra; both of those could work. the problem lies in not always having network hooked up to all of the computers. so, CDs are our best installation mediums
* ogra now actually has to move here ... bbl
<LaserJock> henn_tech: in 7.04 we added a Classroom Server Addon CD
<henn_tech> ogra; you don't have to get the metapackage from synaptic?
<LaserJock> that has a bunch of the educational applications
<LaserJock> henn_tech: yes, but you can put it all on a CD
<sbalneav> Is this back to the idea of edubuntu ceasing to be a distro in itself, and rather an addon disk?
<LaserJock> not yet
<sbalneav> ok
<LaserJock> but since we already provide KDE Edu on the Addon CD
<LaserJock> it should be pretty easy to have an edubuntu-kde metapackage on there that pulls in some more
<sbalneav> yep
<henn_tech> LaserJock; sounds like all i need is the Classroom Server Addon CD then?
<sbalneav> Have we got the edubuntu ltsp server tasksel working yet, so that it builds the chroot?
<LaserJock> henn_tech: well, what specifically are you wanting to add?
<henn_tech> LaserJock; mostly the KDE core and all of its config and admin (KDE Control Center). That's all that's needed
<LaserJock> henn_tech: are you wanting LTSP?
<sbalneav> henn_tech: You could always just install edubuntu, then do an apt-get install kubuntu-desktop, I beleieve
<LaserJock> yes
<henn_tech> LaserJock; it wouldn't hurt
<LaserJock> sbalneav:  that would require a Kubuntu alt disc or I think maybe the DVD
<LaserJock> if you don't have a net connection
<sbalneav> Sure, just add the disk to your sources.list
<henn_tech> so if i don't have a net connection, i can use the Kubuntu disc?
<sbalneav> That should work.
<sbalneav> A quick bit of experimentation would prove it for sure :)
<henn_tech> add the disc to the repositories?
<sbalneav> Sure.  You'll have a line in your /etc/apt/sources.list that looks like:
<sbalneav> deb cdrom:[Edubuntu 7.04 _Feisty Fawn_ - Release i386 Binary-1 (20070415)] / fei
<sbalneav> sty main restricted
<LaserJock> make sure it is an Alternate disk though
<LaserJock> the Desktop CDs won't work
<sbalneav> Just add the one for a Kubuntu (not sure what it is off the top of my head).
<sbalneav> right, alternate.
<henn_tech> ok, thanks guys
<henn_tech> i'll give it a try
<LaserJock> hmm
<LaserJock> yeah, I think an Edubuntu install + kubuntu-desktop should be good
<sbalneav> Two step install, but bearable
<LaserJock> as long as you aren't low on hard drive space, as you will end up with both Gnome and KDE
<sbalneav> yep
<sbalneav> Anything over 6 gigs should fit
<henn_tech> lol
<henn_tech> some of these computers only have 3gigs of storage
<sbalneav> That's gonna be a little tight.
<sbalneav> simplest: try it and see what the space is.
<sbalneav> Not gonna cost you anything to try :)
<henn_tech> that's right
<LaserJock> I think it should end up around 2.5GB
<henn_tech> do a minimal install.. or server, and apt-get install kubuntu-desktop from command-line?
<henn_tech> are there any minidisks?
<LaserJock> well, you can do a minimal install from the Edubuntu Classroom Server CD
<LaserJock> I think it's the "Command line" option at the first screen
<henn_tech> k
<henn_tech> thank you for all the info :)
<henn_tech> have a good one
<LaserJock> ogra!
<LaserJock> ogra: I forgot about my original question for you this morning
<LaserJock> I was working on tuxpaint and I see a lot of .po diff in the Ubuntu debdiff
<LaserJock> how is that generated?
<ogra> likely by debuian/rules clean target
<LaserJock> ogra: tuxpaint-stamps does, but I don't see anything in tuxpaint
<ogra> look for update-po
<ogra> (or so)
<LaserJock> I think last time I merged it I just applied the existing diff
<LaserJock> ogra: hmmm, I still don't know where the po/pot diff comes from in tuxpaint, and it didn't create it in clean:
<ogra> hmm
<ogra> let me grab the source
<ogra> i see abunch of msgfmt calls in the makefile
<ogra> hmm
<LaserJock> ogra: perhaps there shouldn't be any diff to start with?
<ogra> nothing in the debian dir that even remotely handles .po
<LaserJock> nope
<LaserJock> last time when I merged it I just saw that in the .diff.gz
<LaserJock> and I think I asked you about it and you said to just apply it
<ogra> yeah
<LaserJock> but it had to have been generated at some point
<LaserJock> and I'd *like* to make sure that strings haven't changed with a new upstream release
<ogra> actually its only in the makefile ... i dont understand how it can end up in the diff.gz
<yeipi> hi dudes :)
<LaserJock> ogra: ok, I found the version it comes in
<yeipi> I got a question ... how can I disable the secure ltsp "way" for allowing really ppor clients (160 mhz of cpu) to run more faster edubuntu? Thanks
<LaserJock> I grabbed the diff.gz from Launchpad
<LaserJock> ogra: the po diff is introduced in 0.9.15b-3ubuntu1
<LaserJock> which was Edgy's version
<LaserJock> ogra: I'm guessing something just happened when you merged it, dies that sound reasonable?
<yeipi> is there a place where I can get some help? This channel looks like a developers' channel.
<LaserJock> yeipi: no, this is fine
<yeipi> I was asking this because of this: http://doc.ubuntu.com/edubuntu/handbook/C/server-hw.html#id2789456
<LaserJock> yeipi: I was just doing a little chatting
<LaserJock> yeipi: yeah, I seem to remember an option for that
<yeipi> hey cool :)
<yeipi> we have pretty limitated pcs :/
<yeipi> that's why Im trying to find some ways of improve the performance of our clients...
<LaserJock> yeah, that's pretty low
<yeipi> like "disable ltsp secured connections"
<LaserJock> yeah, there's an option that tells ssh to not use encryption
<LaserJock> yeipi: ogra would know but he's in a conference right now so he's kinda coming-and-going
<yeipi> hehe Ok LaserJock ;) I'll wait him, thank you. :)
<LaserJock> hmm, yeah, I just can't find anything on it
<yeipi> yep :/
<LaserJock> yeipi: you could also email the edubuntu-users mailing list
<LaserJock> there are several helpful people there
<yeipi> hm Ok Im going to suscribe to the list :)
<LaserJock> excellent ;-)
<yeipi> hi ogra
<yeipi> ping ogra
<yeipi> I wanted to ask you something....
<yeipi> where is the option that tells ssh to not use encryption? (I wanna run edubuntu on clients that are really poor on cpu and ram)
<yeipi> and in this url http://doc.ubuntu.com/edubuntu/handbook/C/server-hw.html#id2789456  is said that exits a way to run on slower PCs
<yeipi> but don't know where is an option for that. ...
<yeipi> well Im just going to send my question to the list :)
<ogra> LaserJock, i wonder how that happened
<ogra> yeipi, hey
<LaserJock> ogra: so should I just drop the po diff?
<ogra> i dont understand how it even gets in the sourecepackage ....
<ogra> there is nothing that could pull it into the diff.gz
<LaserJock> I don't know either
<LaserJock> unless there was some mixup between files in the merge
<LaserJock> so like you accidently had the previous version's po/ directory in the new source package
<LaserJock> but don't ask me how that would happen :-)
<ogra> i mean i dont understand what puts them in there if i run dpkg-buildpackage
<ogra> there is no code thats doing that
<ogra> oh, dont listen to me
<ogra> im jetlagged atm ... indeed, its not in the orig
<ogra> does the tgz have them ?
<ogra> network is up and down here as well all the time, grr
<ogra> since oscon started next door the conference center situation go pretty bad
<LaserJock> ogra: it's the diff.gz that has the diff
<ogra> yeah
<ogra> cant think atm
<ogra> way to tired ....
<LaserJock> no problem, I remember being a bit tired at Sevilla ;-)
<ogra> yeah and that direction is even worse
<ogra> and i was only here for three days ... flying out tomorrow moring again
<LaserJock> ugg
<LaserJock> so, I'm going to drop the po diff
<LaserJock> as I don't see where it came from and it looks to me like it was unintentional
<ogra> if the tgz has it ...
<ogra> i think i took the plain mom merge back then
<ogra> anyway, need coffee to keep eyes open ...
<LaserJock> hmm, weird
* ogra goes to hunt some
<lmveloso> Hi ogra, you are my GSoC project's mentor. I know you are a busy guy but can we talk a bit now?
<lmveloso> I want to share with you a google doc where I put my daily summary, todo and project plans, so you can take a look when you can.
<LaserJock> ogra: the Ubuntu .diff.gz is the only thing with po diff
#edubuntu 2007-07-25
<ogra> lmveloso, hey, sorry for being so unresponsive, can you mail me the links ?
<ogra> (this month is just insane for me)
<lmveloso> ogra, np oliver! I understand.
<lmveloso> wich is your email?
<lmveloso> pvt /me
<ogra> ogra@ubuntu.com
<ogra> (no need to hide that ;) )
<lmveloso> :) Ok!
<lmveloso> I can share the doc with you but you will need a google account to look and edit it!
<lmveloso> I'm sending it right now.
<ogra> i have one
<ogra> cool
<lmveloso> ogra, mail sent.
<ogra> thanks :)
<lmveloso> I'm behind my original schedule but now I'm still confident I can meet the program deadline.
<lmveloso> Now I'm developing the Sniffer GUI and there is some security issues needing your advice. :-) So, take a look and ask me anything you want to know.
<lmveloso> ogra, You can also edit or comment the doc I sent you. Write down there anything you want.
<lmveloso> By the way, thank you for answering me.
<ogra> well, really sorry for doing that so late
<ogra> but there was also some confusion about the mentorship ...
<lmveloso> Yes, I noticed that but we still have time to handle the project.
<lmveloso> Rodrigo Pereira was mentoring me
<lmveloso> but now he is a Google employee
<ogra> what about using dbus for the front/backend communication ?
<lmveloso> and I believe you can improve the project.
<lmveloso> well..
<lmveloso> I didn't think about dbus because I was trying to solve the remote monitoring feature
<lmveloso> so I decided to add a regular IPC instead of threads or dbus.
<ogra> ah, k
<lmveloso> For local communication we can use dbus, but we will need to rewrite the communication in the future.
<lmveloso> Pyro is very interesting but potentially insecure (as raw sockets), so if we are really going to keep it we'll need to use openssh + password IMHO.
<lmveloso> ogra, think about the architecture and fell free to suggest me anything.
<ogra> i will, using IPC makes more sense, you are right
<lmveloso> I was solving all the problems by myself and there might be better ways of doing it.
<lmveloso> ogra,  Wich way do you prefer to keeping in touch ?
<lmveloso> mail, irc, shared doc, blog?
<lmveloso> :-)
<ogra> IRC is fine but note that i fly out very early tomorrow and wont be available before the weekend then, so for such phases mail is better
<ogra> (i hope my travelling will be done then and i'm available until realease)
<lmveloso> k
<lmveloso> it seems there is a lot of coding sprints lately
<lmveloso> Well, I'll keep you up to date with every progress I make
<ogra> well, this here is rather a business thing
<ogra> two weeks ago was the distro sprint
<ogra> in between the two i got ill ... (still not fixed yet)
<lmveloso> RichEd told me, and how is your tooth ? :-)
<lmveloso> sorry.. I didn't notice the '(...)'
<ogra> the tooth itself is fine, but there seems to be another infection as well ... will need to see the doc next week ....
<ogra> i'm not really well atm
<ogra> we seem to have to leave here ...
<lmveloso> so bad..
<lmveloso> I'll see my dentist soon, I hope it will be just a check up.
* ogra waves ... more by mail then ....
<lmveloso> ogra, nice to meet you!
<lmveloso> Take care!
<sbalneav> Evening all
<effie_jayx> sbalneav,  :D
<sbalneav> Whoo hoo!!!
<sbalneav> New LDM handles password expiry!!!
<sbalneav> Now we're cooking with gas
<LaserJock> anybody around who can help with some testing?
<sbalneav> memememememememe
<sbalneav> What's up?
<sbalneav> Hey!!! Just got password expiry going in the new ldm!!!
<sbalneav> \o/
<sbalneav> Totally pro.
<LaserJock> sweet
<LaserJock> sbalneav: what are you running?
<sbalneav> guuuuuutsy
<LaserJock> did you dist-upgrade today?
<sbalneav> Hmm, well, I ran update manager.
<LaserJock> so did you get a new gcompris?
<sbalneav> root@edubuntu:~# apt-get dist-upgrade
<sbalneav> Reading package lists... Done
<sbalneav> Building dependency tree
<sbalneav> Reading state information... Done
<sbalneav> Calculating upgrade... Done
<sbalneav> 0 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 0 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
<sbalneav> mustve
<sbalneav> What would you like me to test
<LaserJock> well, I need to test gcompris *without* tuxpaint
<LaserJock> with the latest version I merged I moved tuxpaint from Suggests to Depends
<sbalneav> so apt-get remove tuxpaint?
<LaserJock> hmm, well it might want to take out gcompris with it
<sbalneav> Lets see
<sbalneav> Hmm, I don't appear to have it
<sbalneav> oh
<sbalneav> don't appear to have gcompris either!!!
<sbalneav> lol
<sbalneav> Durn, do I gotta download the edu cd?
<LaserJock> good!
<sbalneav> or just install gcompris?
<LaserJock> do you have a good connection?
<sbalneav> not bad, cable modem
<sbalneav> ohh, name change to childsplay?
<sbalneav> hmm no
<LaserJock> well, I'd like you to download an older version of gcompris from Launchpad
<LaserJock> you on i386?
<sbalneav> hmm, gcompris still wants to install tuxpaint.
<sbalneav> yes I am
<sbalneav> point me to what you want downloaded
<LaserJock> http://launchpadlibrarian.net/7919916/gcompris_8.3.1-3ubuntu1_i386.deb
<LaserJock> http://launchpadlibrarian.net/7919915/gcompris-data_8.3.1-3ubuntu1_all.deb
<sbalneav> hmm, what's a good way to resolve all dependencies?
<sbalneav> dpkg -i lists a ton of stuff, just single step through the deps, apt-get installing them?
<LaserJock> http://launchpadlibrarian.net/7919897/gcompris-sound-en_8.3.1-3ubuntu1_all.deb
<LaserJock> do a dpkg -i on all three
<LaserJock> then do a apt-get -f
<sbalneav> Smart, you are
<sbalneav> 21 %
<sbalneav> 29%
<LaserJock> yeah, it's a beast of a package
<LaserJock> I can't believe ogra used to put it on one CD
<sbalneav> Had to suck in his gut :)
<LaserJock> good thing he's skinny
<sbalneav> 77%
<sbalneav> apt-get -f?
<LaserJock> sudo apt-get -f
<LaserJock> it might be -f install
<sbalneav> The following extra packages will be installed:
<sbalneav>   gcompris gcompris-data gcompris-sound-en libsdl-image1.2 libsdl-mixer1.2
<sbalneav>   libsdl-ttf2.0-0 libsmpeg0 python-pysqlite2 tuxpaint tuxpaint-data
<sbalneav>   tuxpaint-stamps-default vorbis-tools
<sbalneav> Suggested packages:
<sbalneav>   gnucap python-pysqlite2-dbg ttf-arphic-gbsn00lp ttf-arphic-uming ttf-baekmuk
<sbalneav>   ttf-thryomanes
<sbalneav> Recommended packages:
<sbalneav>   tuxpaint-config
<sbalneav> The following NEW packages will be installed:
<sbalneav>   libsdl-image1.2 libsdl-mixer1.2 libsdl-ttf2.0-0 libsmpeg0 python-pysqlite2
<sbalneav>   tuxpaint tuxpaint-data tuxpaint-stamps-default vorbis-tools
<sbalneav> The following packages will be upgraded:
<sbalneav>   gcompris gcompris-data gcompris-sound-en
<sbalneav> Tuxpaint's still loading
<LaserJock> argg
<sbalneav> so, I did a dpkg -i *.deb
<sbalneav> which didn't complete, due to deps
<LaserJock> it's trying to dist-upgrade gcompris
<sbalneav> and an apt-get -f install
<sbalneav> I could just march through the deps manually?
<LaserJock> ok, maybe just do apt-get install <add individual packages>
<LaserJock> just leave out tuxpaint*
<sbalneav> ok
<LaserJock> so apt-get install libsdl-image1.2 libsdl-mixer1.2 libsdl-ttf2.0-0 libsmpeg0 python-pysqlite2 vorbis-tools
<sbalneav> got it
<LaserJock> did gcompris install?
<sbalneav> Yessir!
<LaserJock> ok, so fire it up and go to the Amusements -> Tuxpaint
<sbalneav> Cannot find tuxpaint
<sbalneav> install it to use this activity
<sbalneav> Then a plane crashes into a wall
<LaserJock> but it returns you to gcompris ok
<LaserJock> doesn't crash or hang?
<sbalneav> It surely does
<sbalneav> Nope
<LaserJock> hmm
<sbalneav> was it supposed to crash?
<LaserJock> well, kinda yeah
<sbalneav> Seems like it did the RIGHT thing
<sbalneav> I'm in window mode
<LaserJock> we had a bug on LP, and I was able to reproduce it a while ago
<sbalneav> should I try in fullscreen?
<LaserJock> you might, just for the heck of it
<sbalneav> hmmm, how do I do that now....
<LaserJock> gcompris -f I think
<sbalneav> ok
<sbalneav> su - sbalneav
<sbalneav> argh
<sbalneav> blargh I'm ded
<sbalneav> yeah, fullscreen dies horribly
<LaserJock> oh really?
<sbalneav> YA RLY
<sbalneav> My video mode is hozded
<sbalneav> Wonder if it works with the -x
<sbalneav> two shakes
<sbalneav> Yup, if you run it with -f -x, then it pauses for a sec, but then comes back
<sbalneav> If you have problems starting GCompris in fullscreen, try the -x option to disable XF86VidMode
<sbalneav> so I'd say there's some bugs in there opposite that.
<sbalneav> Is gcompris in C or python?
<LaserJock> hmm
<LaserJock> I think both
<LaserJock> sbalneav: does -f mess up other apps in gcompris
<sbalneav> Hmm, lemme check
<sbalneav> Other things seem to work, from quick testing
<sbalneav> LaserJock: still there?
<LaserJock> yeah
<sbalneav> I can't dig into it right now, as I'm pushing to get ldm2 done by new-feature cutoff date
<LaserJock> no problem
<sbalneav> but after mid-august I could spend a day poking at it if you'd like
<LaserJock> I just moved tuxpaint from Suggests to a Depends
<LaserJock> so I *know* it'll work
<LaserJock> but it's intriguing to me as sometimes I've had it work and other installs not
<sbalneav> heh
<sbalneav> If running another app bombs because it's not there, based on the video mode
<sbalneav> I'd say we have a misplaced pointer somewhere, leading to memory corruption.
<sbalneav> strace or the like would show us what's going on
<LaserJock> well, I've had it do it in windowed mode
<LaserJock> and some people have reported it freeze, others a crash
<sbalneav> I'd have to poke into it.
<sbalneav> but I suspect a dangling pointer, or buffer overrun somewhere.
<LaserJock> hmm
<LaserJock> well, for now I think it was an ok idea to make it a depends
<sbalneav> Solves the problem short term.
<LaserJock> yeah
<sbalneav> Leave the bug open, and poke me about it later
<sbalneav> I'll use my gdb-fu on it.
<sbalneav> You on central or mountain time?
<LaserJock> pacific
<LaserJock> oh heah, could you try installing tuxpaint real quick and retrying with -f
<LaserJock> retrying gcompris that is
<sbalneav> ok
<sbalneav> eurgh
<LaserJock> same thing?
<sbalneav> that doesn't work either, full screen
<LaserJock> yeah, that's what I figured
<sbalneav> Problem appears to be the fullscreen stuff
<sbalneav> Maybe it doesn't like the newer xorg
<sbalneav> FWIW, tuxpaint itself works as expected in --fullscreen --800x600
<sbalneav> Well, 12:30 am here
<sbalneav> I'm beat
<LaserJock> yeah
<sbalneav> I'm gonna head to bed.
<LaserJock> thanks for the help
<sbalneav> night
<NewToUbuntu> I recently installed edubuntu by downloading a CD labeled 'Edubuntu 7.04 i386 Bin-1'
<NewToUbuntu> Whenever I try to download applications using Add/Remove, I get a window asking for a disk labeled 'Edubuntu 7.04_Feisty Fawn_Release i386 Binary-1 (20070415)'
<LaserJock> ok
<NewToUbuntu> I only have the above CD, and the same window keeps coming back up...
<LaserJock> hmm
<NewToUbuntu> what am I doing wrong?
<LaserJock> what are you trying to install?
<NewToUbuntu> just about any application gives me either a '....cannot be installed on your computer type (i386)', or the error above.
<LaserJock> ohhhh
<LaserJock> did you have an internet connection when you installed?
<NewToUbuntu> Yes, and I'm running pretty much a garden variety intel Pentium 4
<LaserJock> ok, please pastebin the contents of /etc/apt/sources.list
<LaserJock> !pastebin
<ubotu> pastebin is a service to post large texts so you don't flood the channel. The Ubuntu pastebin is at http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org (make sure you give us the URL for your paste - see also the #ubuntu channel topic)
<NewToUbuntu> ok .. just a sec
<NewToUbuntu> ok - it should be there.  got all the uncommented lines from the sources.list file.  URL : http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/31209/
<LaserJock> ok, well I can see the problem
<LaserJock> although I'm not sure why it doesn't like the CD
<NewToUbuntu> and what's the immediate problem you see?
<LaserJock> go to System -> Administration -> Software Sources
<LaserJock> the problem is that for some reason you lost the Main repository
<LaserJock> which is where most of the important packages are :-)
<NewToUbuntu> great ... how do I correct it?
<LaserJock> have you got it open?
<NewToUbuntu> yes - sorry forgot to update!
<LaserJock> you want to make sure the first option is clicked
<LaserJock> the one that has (main)
<NewToUbuntu> the 'canonical -supported Open Source Software' (main) ...
<LaserJock> yeah
<NewToUbuntu> it's downloading 39 packages
<NewToUbuntu> Now, I'm trying to download 'Bluefish Editor', and I get the dreaded insert disk window ...
<LaserJock> hmm
<LaserJock> hmm, bluefish is in Universe
<NewToUbuntu> not sure what that means or its significance ...
<LaserJock> it's a different software repository
<LaserJock> but it looks like it was enabled
<NewToUbuntu> so if I select 'Supported Ubuntu applications', I should not see the error?
<LaserJock> well, you probably wouldn't find bluefish if you did that
<LaserJock> ok, here's something to try
<NewToUbuntu> that's  correct, but I could try e.g. Quanta Plus just for kicks
<NewToUbuntu> all right...
<LaserJock> go back into the Software Sources app
<NewToUbuntu> i'm there
<LaserJock> and go to the Third-Party Software tab
<LaserJock> you should see that cdrom
<NewToUbuntu> yes, there two identical lines, only the second one of which is check marked...
<LaserJock> ok, uncheck them both
<LaserJock> you might also want to go to the Updates tab
<LaserJock> and make sure feisty-security and feisty-updates are checked
<NewToUbuntu> Hmmm... the security and update are checked ...
<NewToUbuntu> but when I try to uncheck the cdrom, it says the information about available software is out of date
<NewToUbuntu> if I say reload...then it rechecks the cdrom!
<NewToUbuntu> should I just click 'close'?
<LaserJock> hmm
<NewToUbuntu> oops .. never mind.  operator error.  the cdrom is now unchecked.
<LaserJock> ok
<LaserJock> did the reload go ok?
<NewToUbuntu> Ah, that appears to do the trick! Except that now everytime I go to Add/Remove, it says the list of Available applications is out of date ...
<NewToUbuntu> yep - bluefish is loaded and runs!
<LaserJock> ok
<LaserJock> well, I'm not sure how it got that way
<LaserJock> sorry about that
<LaserJock> but hopefully we got it ironed out ;-)
<NewToUbuntu> Hein?????  You just helped me out of a headache and you're apologizing?
<NewToUbuntu> Thank you !!!!!!  This is amazing.
<NewToUbuntu> Good night.
<BLUG-fred> Hi guys! I'd like to report a bug (well check if it has been found yet or not..) that is specific to Edubuntu install. Where and how do I do that?
<juliux> BLUG-fred, take a look at https://bugs.launchpad.net/
<juliux> BLUG-fred, perhaps it is allready reported
<BLUG-fred> thanks.. will do asap
<BLUG-fred> no edubuntu project registered as project.. is it normal?
<juliux> yes
<BLUG-fred> mmm ok.. thanks
<BLUG-fred> so who is responsible for the Install of edubuntu 'package'?
<juliux> if you don't know the exact packagename then only report the bug
<BLUG-fred> it's the installation app
<BLUG-fred> well right.. i don't know the package
* #edubuntu  [freenode-info]  why register and identify? your IRC nick is how people know you. http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#nicksetup
* Starting logfile irclogs/edubuntu.log
<teknopagan> Hiya, folks
<teknopagan> Having some trouble with the DVD iso
<sbalneav> What's the trouble?
<teknopagan> well, I donloaded the DVD image, which is 4.9GB
<teknopagan> Thus I can't burn it to a regular DVD, and I don't have any dual-layer discs available
<teknopagan> I tried opening the iso to look around inside, because the DVD is supposed to have images for Server and Desktop, but I'm not finding those images
<teknopagan> I'm seeing 3 folders inside the iso, including "El torito boot", "ISO9660" and "Joliet level 3"
<teknopagan> Inside ISO9660 there's what looks like a disc image, the same in Joliet level 3 - are those the images I'm looking for?
<sbalneav> Well, you're a little beyond me.  Modifying the image so that it will fit on a smaller disk isn't something I know how to do.
<teknopagan> I'm not trying to modify the image - I'm trying to extract the individual images from inside the main one to burn them separately
<sbalneav> Well, either way, I don't know :)
<sbalneav> ogra's not around right now, he'd be the one to ask.
<teknopagan> k
<teknopagan> Another question I have, is it worth getting the 7.x images as far as feature enhancements go? Or should I just stick with the LTS version?
<sbalneav> Are you interested in thin client support?
<teknopagan> Yep
<sbalneav> There's been a huge amount of improvement in thin client support since LTS, so I'd say go with feisty.
<teknopagan> Sweet - actually, that DVD I was looking at is Gutsy
<sbalneav> There'll be even bigger improvements for gutsy, I'm working on those now.
<Halca> Hey
<Halca> Are there open development tasks
<Halca> :)
#edubuntu 2007-07-26
<sbalneav> Wow
<sbalneav> What an evening.
<sbalneav> So, LDM2 now:
<sbalneav> handles autologin
<sbalneav> gives error messages for incorrect passwords
<sbalneav> handles password changes
<sbalneav> is sexy.
<sbalneav> Now, some testing/cleanup is needed, and we need to get langs/sessions in there.
<sbalneav> night all
<Knightlust> !list
<ubotu> I am ubotu, all-knowing infobot. You can browse my brain at http://bots.ubuntulinux.nl - Usage info: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBots
<Knightlust> oops, wrong channel
<ziroday> what does the server addon cd contain that might help me with LTSP>
<ziroday> *?
<ziroday> what does the server addon cd contain that might help me with LTSP?
* Riddell uploads edubuntu-desktop-kde
<sbalneav> Morning all
<yeipi> have anyone tried Thinstation?
<sbalneav> Some people have.
<sbalneav> They use some of their own bits, and use some ltsp bits too.
<yeipi> hi sbalneav :) Ok
<yeipi> sbalneav: I don't understand (my english is not good) but thinstation is a distribution forthin clients? I mean it doesn't use a server?
<sbalneav> Yeah, it needs a server.
<sbalneav> You install it on a server
<yeipi> but
<yeipi> hmmm
<yeipi> does the live cd of thinstation include firefox abd X?
<yeipi> and X?
<yeipi> it's just too small, just 11 mb
<yeipi> :/ that's my doubt
<sbalneav> No, it uses the stuff up on the server.
<sbalneav> I don't know much about it, since I don't use it.
<yeipi> it's a like a software, so I probable could run it on any distribution... ?
<sbalneav> I guess.
<sbalneav> Try it and see, one supposes
<sbalneav> They have their own irc channel
<yeipi> ok sbalneav
<sbalneav> probably better to ask there.
<yeipi> yeah I think that too.:) thanks for the tip.
<yeipi> sbalneav: will you release the version  of ldm you're adding autologin feature?
<yeipi> I saw a chatlog where you said you were workin on it sbalneav
<sbalneav> Yep I am.
<sbalneav> I'm not planning on releasing it, because I'm selfish.  I'm gonna keep it all to myself, and you can't have it.  nyanyanya :)
<sbalneav> Yeah, it'll be in the next version of Ubuntu.
<yeipi> jaja
<yeipi> ok sbalneav
<stgraber> sbalneav: has this black-screen-if-invalid-password bug been fixed with your latest ldm changes ?
<yeipi> hi guys. is there a way to get a 16 mb client running with edubuntu?? I mean recompile the kernel, or I don't know...
<yeipi> we can't get more ram for the clients
<yeipi> I tried these clients with 32 mb ram and the run flawlessly, but with 16 I get a kernel panic :/
<sbalneav> stgraber: Yep
<sbalneav> yeipi: 16's a little low.
* stgraber hugs sbalneav 
<LaserJock> sbalneav: heah dude
<yeipi> sbalneav: I know but, what do you recommend to me (apart from the memory upgrade)?
<yeipi_> sbalneav: I know but, what do you recommend to me (apart from the memory upgrade)?
<sbalneav> Hmmm, tough
<yeipi_> hmm Ok sbalneav.
<sbalneav> About the only thing we may be able to do is move the nbd swap earlier
<sbalneav> How far along does it get before it dies?
<sbalneav> Does it die right after loading the kernel?
<sbalneav> LaserJock: heyo!
<sbalneav> with 16 megs of ram, though performance is gonna be aweful.
<sbalneav> Even on the old ltsp 4.2, 16 megs was too small.
<yeipi_> noo
<yeipi_> I tried k12ltsp with 16 mb ram (ltsp 4.2) and the performance is pretty acceptable
<sbalneav> Which version?  An old one?
<sbalneav> I think the last version of LTSP we had that ran ok in 16 megs was, like, 4.1
<sbalneav> yeipi_: You haven't told me where it dies yet?
<sbalneav> Have you tried gutsy at all?  We've re-written some parts that used to be in Python, and they're now written in C.
<sbalneav> That may help some.
<yeipi_> hm!!
<yeipi_> ok! dude thank you!
<yeipi_> I'm gonna try gutsy
<sbalneav> I guess the question is: is it dying in the initramfs, or later in the boot?
<sbalneav> If it's dying in the initramfs, then that's gonna be tough to solve.
<yeipi_> and I can't say you where it hangs up 'cause I erased the partition where I had edubuntu
<sbalneav> If it's dying LATER, then we may be able to solve that by either moving the nbd swap earlier in the boot process, or right into the initramfs.
<sbalneav> Gonna be kinda hard for me to help you when you don't have a running edubuntu :)
<yeipi_> ok sbalneav I'm going to start using edubuntu right now dude!
<yeipi_> wait a moment please!
<yeipi_> I'm using other edubuntu server we ha
<yeipi_> I forgot we had :P
* yeipi_ is at school right now :)
<sbalneav> Hmmm.
<sbalneav> So, here's an interesting one.
<yeipi_> sbalneav: I tried it!
<yeipi_> and it hangs up after intramfs
<sbalneav> ok
<sbalneav> so lets do this.
<sbalneav> sudo chroot /opt/ltsp/i386
<sbalneav> you should then be in the choot
<sbalneav> lets cd /etc/rc2.d
<sbalneav> can you do an ls, and paste that to the pastebin?
<yeipi_> ok, I'm going to to it right now
<sbalneav> !pastebin
<ubotu> pastebin is a service to post large texts so you don't flood the channel. The Ubuntu pastebin is at http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org (make sure you give us the URL for your paste - see also the #ubuntu channel topic)
<yeipi_> ok dude
<yeipi_> http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/31455
<yeipi_> I already did it dude
<sbalneav> k
<sbalneav> ok
<sbalneav> lets see what we can do here....
<yeipi_> ok sbalneav :)
<sbalneav> alright, not sure if this will work, but...
<sbalneav> you're in the chroot, so...
<sbalneav> rm S20nbd-client
<sbalneav> ln -s S19nbd-client ../init.d/nbd-client
<sbalneav> That will put the nbd-client BEFORE the ltsp startup
<yeipi_> ok dude lemme do it
<sbalneav> so now, when you so an ls, S19nbd-client should execute before S20ltsp
<yeipi_> I got an error: '../nit.d/bnd-client' to 'S19nbd-client' : file exits
<yeipi_> exists
<yeipi_> is the ln -s well done?
<yeipi_> ln -s origin destiny
<yeipi_> ln -s  ../init.d/nbd-client  S19nbd-client ?
<sbalneav> oh, yeah
<sbalneav> sorry
<sbalneav> bass ackwards
<yeipi_> jejeje ok
<yeipi_> :P
<yeipi_> lemme do it
<sbalneav> ok, so once you've got that done, try a reboot, and see if you get any farther,
<yeipi_> ok dude, I did that ln
<yeipi_> and now Im gonna reboot
<yeipi_> im gonna disconnect
<yeipi_> brb
<sbalneav> k
<yeipi_> it says: unpacking intramfs
<yeipi_> and then appeared the kernel panic
<yeipi_> :(
<sbalneav> ok, so it's dying right in the unpack of the initramfs
<yeipi_> yep!
<sbalneav> so, basically, the initramfs needs to get smaller.
<yeipi_> how could I do it?
<sbalneav> hm
<sbalneav> lemme see
<yeipi_> ok :)
<sbalneav> Hmm
<sbalneav> There's not a lot of spare room to delete out of there.
<yeipi_> sbalneav: do you think if I increase the swap memory?
<yeipi_> :/
<sbalneav> No, because it's dying while uncompressing the initramfs
<yeipi_> ok
<sbalneav> so it's never even gotten to swap.
<sbalneav> About the only thing you MAY be able to do is try come up with a smaller kernel, but that's going to be hard given a 2.6 kernel series.
<yeipi_> hmm Ok dude
<sbalneav> The k12ltsp was using a 2.4 kernel for the client?
<yeipi_> yep 2.4
<sbalneav> yeah
<yeipi_> you think I have to recompile the kernel?
<sbalneav> How many of these 16 meg machines you got?
<yeipi_> ufff
<yeipi_> so many dude
<yeipi_> cents!
<yeipi_> a lot of schools here got these machines (with 16mb ram)
<sbalneav> do you NEED them all?  Any chance you could do with 1/2 the number of machines, take the ram out of one set to make one with 32 megs of ram?
<sbalneav> i.e. You got a 100 16 megs, so make 50 32 megs?
<yeipi_> hmm
<yeipi_> those computers are on rural schools
<yeipi_> poor schools that got 2 o 3 of those computers
<sbalneav> hm
<yeipi_> so it'll just one computer working
<yeipi_> we gave those schools the server and newer networks card and that's all we can give them :/
<yeipi_> (sorry my enligsh dude)
<sbalneav> Well, about the only thing that could be done is to come up with a custom kernel that strips out EVERYTHING that isn't needed.
<sbalneav> Are all these machines "the same"? I.e. same motherboard, video card and network card?
<yeipi_> yep
<yeipi_> i.e.
<yeipi_> olivetti m24
<yeipi_> ibm pc100
<yeipi_> cents of those computers
<yeipi_> all of 'em with 16 mb ram
<sbalneav> ok, you're going to have to find out EXACTLY what's in those computers.
<sbalneav> EXACTLY what video chipset, EXACTLY what mobo chipset, etc.
<yeipi_> I know exactily
<yeipi_> yep we know
<sbalneav> ok
<yeipi_> sound video modules, etc...
<sbalneav> Well, best I can offer is, send me the specs to sbalneav@ltsp.org
<sbalneav> I'll try and come up with a step by step guide to what you need to do to build a more scaled down kernel.
<sbalneav> but there's not a lot of spare room in there to fidlle with, but maybe we can shave a meg off or so.
<yeipi_> wow dude? I really thank you that!
<sbalneav> I'm not going to garantee anything.
<yeipi_> ok lemme recollect those specs
<sbalneav> You could, as a stopgap measure, install an OLD version of ltsp manually under Edubuntu
<yeipi_> ok dude, I understand, but I don't lose anything trying it out
<sbalneav> You won't get local devices or sound, but if that's ok, you could make that work too.
<sbalneav> You can mix and match ltsp chroots, so you could have an ltsp5 chroot for "newer, better" machines, and for the old ones, use a really old ltsp4.1 chroot.
<sbalneav> but maybe if we shrink the kernel down enough, we can get it to the point where we can turn on nbd swap.
<sbalneav> Anyway, I gotta head home for the day.
<sbalneav> mail me at sbalneav@ltsp.org, and I'll see what I can do.
<sbalneav> cheers.
<blue-frog> sorry to ask the question here but cannot get an answer elsewhere and I am pretty sure the answer must be "simple"
<blue-frog>  when my usb HDD is automounted, it gets the following in mtab ext3 rw,noexec,nosuid,nodev, where can I change this, please?
<blue-frog>  cause right now my user (install created user) cannot write to the HDD
<yeipi_> bye guys
#edubuntu 2007-07-27
<sbalneav> Evening all
<ziroday> good morning
<sbalneav> Evening!
<ziroday> lol\
<ziroday> do you use ltsp?
<sbalneav> ziroday: I use, and WRITE ltsp
<sbalneav> I'm one of the developers
<ziroday> wow
<ziroday> well first ohh, ltsp is awesome
<ziroday> and i think ive incorprated it and brang life to about 8 NGO's now
<ziroday> sbalneav: and i was wondering
<sbalneav> Yes?
<ziroday> is there anyway i can push settings to all users
<ziroday> like make them all have the same desktop
<ziroday> wallpaper
<ziroday> without changing each users manually
<sbalneav> Yep.  Look into Sabayon, and pesselus
<ziroday> thanks
<ziroday> so what did you write in the project?
<sbalneav> Most of the localdevice support.
<sbalneav> Lots of docs
<sbalneav> Rewriting LDM in C
<ziroday> ahh lol
<sbalneav> etc
<ziroday> hey is there and different LDM Login screens?, or are they just normal Login Screens that you can get from gnome-look and its like?
<sbalneav> The ldm greeters are different.
<sbalneav> Currently, there's really only a gtk+ greeter.
<sbalneav> I'd like to see a qt greeter, and a Xlib (plain) greeter
<ziroday> ahh
<ziroday> ok
<ziroday> sorry its just that most NGO's i work with have no idea what linux is or howto use it
<ziroday> so i try to make it as "windozy" like as possible
<ziroday> e.g. one bar at the bottom, with a windoze logo, windoze icons etc
<ziroday> and they always get scared whenever they see anything say anything about edubuntu
<ziroday> the name just scares them lol
<sbalneav> Tried that a long time ago, and discovered that it was a really bad way to go, personally.
<ziroday> you think its better to teach them?
<sbalneav> No matter how much you make it TRY to look like windows, it will never BE windows, never act COMPLETELY like windows.
<ziroday> true
<sbalneav> Which confuses them even more.
<ziroday> but i do things like rename OOO Word, just word and give it a word logo
<sbalneav> I've found it's better for it to look completely different, then you drive home the fact that this ISN'T windows, and some things are different.
<ziroday> so i dont get a call in the middle of the nite from my latest NGO asking where word is lol
<ziroday> hmm, ill try that this time than
<sbalneav> cuts down on a lot of the "Well on REAL windows, when I do THIS it should work like THIS" type complaints.
<sbalneav> But that's just what I've found.
<ziroday> yeah i get a lot of those lol
<sbalneav> I've got 175 government workers using gnome and openoffice, as gnome and openoffice.
<sbalneav> and I've even got 8 of them to convert to Linux at home.
<ziroday> lol, but do you live in the same country as them?
<sbalneav> Yep.
<ziroday> unfortunatly not for me
<ziroday> im in singapore and i help NGO's in indonesia, phillipines
<ziroday> malaysia etc
<ziroday> mainly with computer issues or shortages
<ziroday> so its hard for me to go down there and do this and that say there this is how you have to do it
<ziroday> so which country are you in?
<sbalneav> Canada
<ziroday> lucky
<tekkel> hello
<tekkel> can anybody help me with an upgrade problem with edubuntu?
<tekkel> I upgraded an edubuntu server to Feisty
<tekkel> but the PXE-booted workstations still seem to run edubuntu 6.x
<tekkel> is there an image somewhere that should be upgraded also?
<tekkel> found it allready
<sbalneav> Morning all
<ando> Im having problems with booting windows
<ando> i installed ubuntu with the live CD and it failed
<ando> and now grub doesnt give me the option to boot windows
<ando> help anyone?
<sudeep> how to install *.bin files
<sbalneav> What are you tring to install?
<sbalneav> a .bin file could be anything.
<sudeep> amsn...
<sudeep> is there any way to convet it to *.deb
<sbalneav> amsn?
<sbalneav> What's that?
<sudeep> amsn -- thats something like gaim
<sbalneav> Oh, for msn.  Doesn't gaim have an msn plugin?  Is this a windows program?
<sudeep> yes there is form msn...
<Rondom> sudo apt-get amsn?
<lns> Hey all!
<lns> Can anyone tell me how I can install the Edubuntu User/Group manager for vanilla Ubuntu (AMD64) w/LTSP?
<lns> We really need the integrated user search function which doesn't seem to be available for the regular Gnome user/group mgr
<Adune> Is there a doc for throwing KDE on Edubuntu?
<Adune> I'm hoping to lock the desktop down a bit more than default.
<Comete> hi
<Comete> i use ltsp with Edubuntu 7.04 but i have a problem with the screen resolution on the clients. The  resolution is too high and it seems that the X_MODE_0 = 800x600 is not accepted, any idea ?
<jorge_> hi
<jorge_> a good video card is required for the edubuntu's server???
<_MetaLMilitiA_> ...
<_MetaLMilitiA_> any one??
<Comete> _MetaLMilitiA_: no
<Comete> _MetaLMilitiA_: you can use it with any 2d card
<_MetaLMilitiA_> txz!
<_MetaLMilitiA_> we got a problem too with de initramfs, because we need to start very old machines with only 16 MB ram, but the initramfs causes kernel panic
<_MetaLMilitiA_> is there a way to reduce initramfs size?
* netjoined: irc.freenode.net -> kubrick.freenode.net
#edubuntu 2007-07-28
<_MetaLMilitiA_> i think not
<_MetaLMilitiA_> =P
<Comete> _MetaLMilitiA_: any 2d card supported by xorg
<sbalneav> Evening all
<sbalneav> Morning all
<moquist> sbalneav: hey
<sbalneav> Hello moquist
<sbalneav> How's it going?
<moquist> good
<moquist> workin' on the non-wwwconfig moodle package
<moquist> not sure what to call it
<moquist> given that 'moodle' is already packaged, and this is the same *version*, so moodle<version> doesn't make sense as a package name (like, for example, bind9, dhcp3, etc.)
<sbalneav> moodle-alternate?
<moquist> moodle-sbalneav-rules?
<sbalneav> :)
<moquist> I suspect that regardless of what I pick, it will be changed later, anyway. (If, indeed, my work goes in and ogra doesn't just whip this out in 15 minutes some afternoon.)
* moquist goes with moodle-alt for now
<sbalneav> Welp, need a shower, and some bacon and eggs.  And coffee.  Off to cook for the family.  I'll idle.
<moquist> Sounds like a good Saturday.
<moquist> Today is Saturday, right? Right.
<jsgotangco> greetings from Hanoi
<moquist> jsgotangco: hiya from New Hampshire
<jsgotangco> heh
<moquist> jsgotangco: No, seriously. hiya!
* moquist is being a dork
<jsgotangco> heh
<moquist> sbalneav: turns out I don't need a different name; just bumping from ubuntu1 to ubuntu2 is sufficient
<moquist> sbalneav: not to mention that when I rename the package the source package build breaks... :p
<Capster> can dapperdrake edubuntu live cd connect to internet?
<sbalneav> Should be able to.
<Capster> I have a valid ethernet card 3com, it shows up,
<Capster> just added network manager
<sbalneav> You installed network manager in dapper?
<Capster> live cd yes DD6061
<sbalneav> IIRC, Network Manager was fairly broken until edgy.
<Capster> oh ok, I have never used linux until now, have used unix before though,
<sbalneav> Network manager's fairly new.  With the stock cd, it should just configure the interface with dhcp
<Capster> should I have to add/remove anything to get connected?
<sbalneav> So as long as you've got a dhcp server aon the network, it should work.
<sbalneav> No, shouldn't
<Capster> I read that on xubuntu I would use ppoeconf, edu gives err on that command dpkg -s ppoeconf -----not found
<sbalneav> Are you plugging the dsl modem straight into the computer?
<sbalneav> Or are you going through a dsl router?
<Capster> yes
<Capster> home gateway
<Capster> system->administration->networking?
<Capster> it shows the ethernet connectionisactive
<sbalneav> ok
* Capster hates this spacebar
<sbalneav> do this from a terminal
<sbalneav> sudo ifconfig -a
<sbalneav> and paste the result to the pastebin
<sbalneav> !pastebin
<ubotu> pastebin is a service to post large texts so you don't flood the channel. The Ubuntu pastebin is at http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org (make sure you give us the URL for your paste - see also the #ubuntu channel topic)
<sbalneav> and then paste the url here.
<Capster> I can't copy/paste, I'm using a seperate win2k lappy to connect here
<sbalneav> ok, well what interfaces does it report, and what ip addresses does it display?
<sbalneav> i.e., on mine
<sbalneav> eth2      Link encap:Ethernet  HWaddr 00:0F:EA:3A:12:DD
<sbalneav>           inet addr:192.168.0.23  Bcast:192.168.0.255  Mask:255.255.255.0
<Capster> eth0 is my ethernet card, says inet6 addr:fe80::210::4bff::fed3:30e1/64
<Capster> broadcast running multicast
<sbalneav> Doesn't have an inet addr, i.e. not an ipv6?
<Capster> says lo is loopbackm and sit0 isIPv6-in-IPv4
<sbalneav> ok, then your ethernet interface isn't leasing an ip address from the DSL router
<sbalneav> try manually poking it:
<sbalneav> sudo ifdown eth0
<sbalneav> then
<sbalneav> sudo ifup eth0
<Capster> interesting, DHCPdiscover 6 times, NodhcpOffers recieved....no working leases...sleeping
<sbalneav> ok
<Capster> on another windows machine ipconfig /all says subnet mask is 255.255.255.0, but the dhcpdiscover was 255.255.255.255
<sbalneav> so, either your dhcp on your little dsl router's borked, or it's not handing out addresses because you're not just dynamically handing out addresses, or, you've got a cabling problem.
<sbalneav> How many ports you have used on the dsl router
<Capster> 4
<Capster> it was working as far as I know
<sbalneav> many of them have 2 ports that are really one port: a "normal" and a "crossover" port.  If you've got cables plugged into both the normal and crossover ports, one of 'em won't work.
<sbalneav> Check and see if the card thinks it sees a hub/switch:
<sbalneav> sudo mii-tool eth0
<Capster> all 4 have been previously used to connect other windows pc
<Capster> link ok
<Capster> 100baseTx-FD
<sbalneav> Well, the box thinks it's connected to a switch, so that's good.
<Capster> in the network settings-hosts tab, I see ip6 aliases,
<sbalneav> You could, if you wanted, just go to System->Administration->Networking, and try assigning a static address temporarily, just to ensure that it will talk that way.
<sbalneav> Ignore anything ipv6
<sbalneav> it
<sbalneav> it's meaningless for you.  You're not connected to anything ipv6 compatible.
<Capster> so delete all the ip6 info?
<sbalneav> just ignore it.
<Capster> does alias matter what I put?
<sbalneav> Shouldn't
<Capster> in the properties it looks like I can set a static IP....do I need to touch that?
<Capster> or, ethernet card properties
<sbalneav> Ethernet card properties
<Capster> and should I create a location?
<sbalneav> I wouldn't bother
<sbalneav> We're just going to set something up temporarily to see if it can talk.
<sbalneav> after that, you'll want to set it back to dhcp, and figure out why your dhcp server on your router isn't giving it an address.
<Capster> it is a 2wire gateway any known issue ?
<highvoltage> hey bluekuja, crimsun, jbrefort, kgoetz, moquist, nixternal, sacater, sbalneav, stgraber... and all the other cool people!
<sbalneav> Hello highvoltage
<jbrefort> hi highvoltage
<sbalneav> Capster: Not that I know of, but I don't use dsl routers, so I'm not really up on them.
<Capster> well, I did another poke, and it says it's configured
<Capster> looking via other
<Capster> other machine the gateway the device still doesn't show up though
<sbalneav> netstat -nr should show you configured gateways
<sbalneav> 0.0.0.0         192.168.0.1     0.0.0.0         UG        0 0          0 eth2
<sbalneav> 0.0.0.0 is the "default" route.
<Capster> hmm, shows gateway as 0.0.0.0
<sbalneav> And what is your gateway?
<Capster> I put in the gateway address in the form,it's not 0.0.0.0.
<sbalneav> Do you have an IP address on the interface now?
<sbalneav> You could set the gateway fromthe command line with:
<sbalneav> sudo route add -net default gw ww.xx.yy.xx
<Capster> I had it set in the ethernet card properties.
<Capster> route added but, siocart: file exists
<sbalneav> ah, sorry
<sbalneav>  route add -net default gw 192.168.0.1 metric 1
<Capster> what I added was 192.168.1.254
<sbalneav> ok
<sbalneav> So, now you've got a route set?
<Capster> still can't ping anything
<sbalneav> Nothing on your local network?
<jbrefort> Capster, what's the address of the gateway?
<Capster> not even the gw, 192.168.1.254
<sbalneav> What's the ifconfig eth0 command give?
<sbalneav> I need to know the ip addr, netmask, and broadcast
<jbrefort> ;)
<Capster> bcast isnot thegateway
<sbalneav> I know
<sbalneav> If you do an ifconfig eth0, you should see:
<sbalneav> eth0      Link encap:Ethernet  HWaddr 00:02:B3:CC:24:99
<sbalneav>           inet addr:192.168.1.254  Bcast:192.168.1.255  Mask:255.255.255.0
<sbalneav>           inet6 addr: fe80::202:b3ff:fecc:2499/64 Scope:Link
<sbalneav>           UP BROADCAST RUNNING MULTICAST  MTU:1500  Metric:1
<sbalneav>           RX packets:0 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 frame:0
<sbalneav>           TX packets:108 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 carrier:0
<sbalneav>           collisions:0 txqueuelen:1000
<sbalneav>           RX bytes:0 (0.0 b)  TX bytes:20777 (20.2 KB)
<sbalneav> The second line
<sbalneav> inet addr, bcast and mask
<sbalneav> what are they?
<Capster> 192.168.1.70ip, mask255.255.255.0,bcast=192.168.1.255
<Capster> outoforder there though
<sbalneav> And what's the ip address of your laptop?
<Capster> .66
<Capster> it looks like the router assigns them sequentially, I skipped a few, maybe I should try the next in order
<sbalneav> so if you ping 192.168.1.66, you get nothing?
<Capster> host unreachable
<sbalneav> Then you've got some kind of hardware problem.
<sbalneav> Either the network cable, or the card itself.
<Capster> k, will check into it...thanks for the help
<sbalneav> NP
<Capster> I know the usb had worked,but apparently getting that to work is harder...didn't test the card to make sureitworked before running...
<mindslant> howdy.  When I try to start "Potato Guy" a.k.a. KTuberling I get a dialogue box "Fatal Error:  Unable to load pictures, aborting".  Any ideas?  (it's my daughters fave program)
<sbalneav> mindslant: What version of edubuntu are you on?
<mindslant> 7.04
<mindslant> thx
<sbalneav> Check and see if you got a directory called /usr/share/apps/ktuberling
<sbalneav> and that it's got some stuff in it
<mindslant> yep
<sbalneav> ls -al /usr/share/apps/ktuberling/pics
<sbalneav> Paste the results to the pastebin
<sbalneav> !pastebin
<ubotu> pastebin is a service to post large texts so you don't flood the channel. The Ubuntu pastebin is at http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org (make sure you give us the URL for your paste - see also the #ubuntu channel topic)
<Athanasius> How can I see all the machines connected to my dhcp?
<mindslant> 1 sec
<sbalneav> Athanasius: Depends on your dhcp server
<sbalneav> Are you wanting to know how many leases you've issued?
<sbalneav> or do you want to know how many thin clients you have logged into your server?
<Athanasius> yes
<sbalneav> Use Thin CLient Manager
<Athanasius> actually, I am trying to connect a printer... i will try to explain
<mindslant> http://pastebin.com/d487ea729
<Athanasius> I have the standard 2 nic LTSP setup
<sbalneav> mindslant: Well, that looks ok
<Athanasius> I have a networked printer running to the server
<Athanasius> via the router
<mindslant> good news
<Athanasius> the clients are in another room and it is not expedient to run wire from the printer that I want the clients to use all the way to the server
<Athanasius> I was thinking that I can connect the printer (it is also a network printer) to the same switch that the clients are connected to
<Athanasius> in order to install the printer to the network that the clients are on.  I do not intend to use the printer from the server
<Athanasius> clear as mud?
<Athanasius> I want to be able to see what ip address the client printer is so that I can add it in cups
<sbalneav> Does the printer obtain it's ip address via dhcp?
<Athanasius> I suppose the question would be, Is this the right approach?
<Athanasius> I think if I connect the printer to the client network then eth1 would assign it an ip
<sbalneav> Bad idea.
<sbalneav> The ip addresses it will be assigned will be dynamic
<sbalneav> So it won't be guarenteed that it will STAY on that address
<Athanasius> ok
<sbalneav> It may work for a while, but if the dhcp server decides to assign your printer a different IP address for some reason, your printing will break.
<Athanasius> that's true, I have had that problem before.
<sbalneav> As well, if you put the printer on the side with the terminals, it will end up being accessible only to the clients.  Anyone else who printed to it before will not find it anymore.
<Athanasius> I don't need access to the printer from the server so that is not what I am worried about
<Athanasius> sounds strange maybe
<sbalneav> Edubuntu by default sets up the dhcp server to assign dynamic addresses in the range of 20-250
<sbalneav> So, what I'd suggest is: use the printer's front panel admin interface to assign it a static address in the range of 1-19
<sbalneav> put it on the client network then, and set up cups with the static interface.
<sbalneav> That will get you what you want without any dhcp hinkiness.
<Athanasius> i will look into that
<Athanasius> thanks, you have helped me yet again
<sbalneav> mindslant: As for you, I'm at a loss.
<sbalneav> The files it needs are there.
<sbalneav> can you run the program as someone else?
<mindslant> I'll have to set up somenone else
<mindslant> brb
<mindslant> yes, yes potato guy does work under another user
<mindslant> sbalneav, thx for the help so far
<Capster> does a wrapper on an usb driver for inline ethernet work? anyone ever get something like this to work ?
<Capster> gtg
#edubuntu 2007-07-29
<LaserJock> moquist: around?
<Comete> hi
<Comete> anyone still alive here ?
<LaserJock> I'm sure somebody is
<LaserJock> somewhere
<Comete> hello LaserJock
<crimsun> lies.  We're all dead.
<Comete> i've got a problem with edubuntu 7.04 and ltsp 5
<LaserJock> Comete: ok, what's the problem, I'm not sure I can help but I can take a stab at it
<Comete> i use X_MODE_0 = 800x600 by default but the resolution stays too high on the clients, something like 1200x...
<Comete> i don't understand why, it worked perfectly with ltsp 4.2
<Comete> the problem is the same with all my clients, they are all different
<Comete> not the same graphic card
<LaserJock> hmm
<LaserJock> sbalneav: around?
<Comete> i've tested with ati or vesa drivers... same problem...
<Comete> even the intel ones
<LaserJock> Comete: I'm really not good with LTSP troubleshooting, have you tried #ltsp ?
<LaserJock> I'm not sure if anybody else in here is paying attention ;-)
<Comete> LaserJock: i'm on it but nobody answers
<LaserJock> it's the weekend :/
<sbalneav> LaserJock: yep
<sbalneav> ah
<sbalneav> X_MODE doesn't work anymore
<sbalneav> Have a look at the edubuntu handbook
<sbalneav> You'll need to lower the X_HORZSYNC ad X_VERTREFRESH I beleive
<LaserJock> Comete: ^^
<sbalneav> brb, off to cook din din
<moquist> LaserJock: am now
<Comete> sbalneav: really ?
<Comete> sbalneav: ok i'll look at it thanks :)
<LaserJock> moquist: any progress on moodle
<moquist> LaserJock: I am working on it today, as a matter of fact.
* moquist checks his latest test
<moquist> hmm. an apt-get remove --purge moodle hung around after restarting apache
<moquist> anyhow, now I'll apt-get install my newest test.
<moquist> LaserJock: I just bumped the version from ubuntu1 to ubuntu2 to test. That seems like it was the right way to do it...
<moquist> LaserJock: good ot hear from you
<LaserJock> moquist: yeah, you can do that (ubuntu1 to ubuntu2), you could also for test purposes add something on the end
<LaserJock> like ubuntu1~test1
<moquist> LaserJock: it was changing the package name that brought up those errors with removing the license files. before I changed the version to ubuntu2 I tried renaming my package moodle-alt, and right when I did the rename my pbuilder builds started failing with those old errors. when I leave the package named "moodle" and just change the version, it builds fine.
<LaserJock> hmmm
<LaserJock> it must be checking the directory name
<moquist> LaserJock: I can upload the source package if you want to take a gander. The installation isn't working yet, though. (Or, it might be working, but I've sufficiently hosed my test system that I need to get a fresh one.)
<LaserJock> hah
<LaserJock> if you want to put it on REVU that'd be fine
<moquist> is it considered good netiquitte to put half-baked stuff on there?
<LaserJock> sure
<LaserJock> people do it all the time ;-)
* moquist looks up elgamal
<moquist> Um, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Packages/REVU tells me I want an Elgamal key, but there aren't any links or other help. I have no idea what to do, and google hasn't been immediately helpful.
<LaserJock> a what?
* LaserJock looks
<Comete> sbalneav: X_HORZSYNC and X_VERTREFRESH don't let me choose the resolution ?
<LaserJock> moquist: hmm, I've never heard of that
<Comete> i'm more and more convinced that ltsp5 is not a good idea...
<LaserJock> LTSP5 has got a lot of advancements I think
<LaserJock> but enough has changed that I think sometimes takes some getting used to
<LaserJock> moquist: I don't think I'd worry about that. If you use gpg or seahorse to create your key I think you'll be fine
<moquist> LaserJock: my key is all set. i'm installing dput now.
<moquist> but I have to go eat, so I'll get back to this later.
<sbalneav> Comete: No, but if you lower the horizsync and vert refresh, it will pop down into 800x600
<LaserJock> hmm, I would think raising the refresh rates would do that
* LaserJock thinks about it
<sbalneav> Nope, lowering the refresh rates.
<sbalneav> Comete: The other way to do it is to specify a custom xorg.conf file.
<Comete> sbalneav: so i should know the vertical and horizontal refresh rate of all the screens ?
<moquist> LaserJock: thanks
<sbalneav> Well, by default, xorg queries the screen, and asks it what it's best refresh rate is.
<Comete> ltsp has done a jump in the past...
<sbalneav> So unless you've got a REALLY old monitor there, it "just works" by default.
<Comete> sbalneav: i don't consider 1200x1024 to be a good resolution for a 15" monitor
<sbalneav> So, you've got an old 15 inch monitor that doesn't report correctly.
<sbalneav> So, xorg just "guesses" a bad resolution.
<Comete> no i've got 20 old monitors...
<sbalneav> ok, so like I say:
<sbalneav> adjust X_VERTREFRESH and X_HORZSYNC, or, come up with a default xorg.conf file for those monitors, and use the XF86CONFIG_FILE = /path/to/file to set it.
<sbalneav> Either will work.
<Comete> sbalneav: ok, do you know why the X_MODE_ option was removed ?
<sbalneav> We use the debian xorg packages now, and use the preseeding mechanism to configure them....
<Comete> ...
<sbalneav> the debian packages allow you to preseed the xhorizsync and vertrefresh, but DONT allow you to preseed the resolution.
<Comete> sbalneav: is there a mean to detect the range for xhorizsync and vertrefresh on a monitor, because i have no manuals for those monitors ?
<sbalneav> You could just EXPERIMENT with some values.
<sbalneav> Google, also, will have answers
<sbalneav> X_VERTREFRESH of 30-65, and X_HORIZSYNC of 45-65 would be good places to start.
<sbalneav> Or, like I say:
<sbalneav> cp /etc/X11/xorg.conf to /opt/ltsp/i386/etc/X11/xorg.oldmonitor.conf
<sbalneav> edit, and set the video driver, and X_MODE to 800x600
<sbalneav> XF86CONFIG_FILE = /etc/X11/xorg.oldmonitor.conf in your lts.conf
<Comete> sbalneav: thanks a lot :)
<crosvera> hi people
<crosvera> I have a question, the thinclients can use owns cd-readers/writers and usb ports to use pendrives?
<LaserJock> I think the users need to be in the fuse group on the server
<crosvera> o thanks folk
<Obled> holaaa
<Obled> hay alguien ke sepa como compartir internet
<crosvera> obled
<crosvera> estas?
<Obled> sip
<Obled> me puedes
<Obled> ayudar con el audio
<crosvera> http://www.boksar.info/index.php/2006/10/21/compartir-internet-con-linuxsharing-internet-on-linux/
<crosvera> ese link para que leas como compartir inet
<crosvera> que te pasa con l audio
<Obled> lo ke pasa
<Obled> es ke ayer estaba todo bien
<Obled> y hoy ke prendi mi compu ya no se escucho nada
<crosvera> en que distro estas?
<Obled> ubuntu
<crosvera> http://www.antro.cl/comunidad/showthread.php?t=321854
<crosvera> ve ese link
<Obled> ok
<Obled> deja lo checo
<Obled> gracias!
<crosvera> de nada
<Obled> oye creo ke ya salio algo
<Obled> espera
<crosvera> que cosa?
<Obled> oye
<Obled> ya le subi el volumen
<Obled> como esta en el link
<crosvera> y funciona
<Obled> pero ahora como guardo los cambios :o)
<crosvera> cierra nomas pos
<Obled> no lo se deja lo checo
<Obled> oye ke bien
<Obled> ya agarro de nuevo
<Obled> gracias
<Obled> de nuevo
<Obled> ya solo tengo ke arreglar lo de mi inter
<Obled> lo ke pasa
<Obled> es ke kiero compartir internet
<Obled> de UBUNTU>win Xp
<crosvera> pppoe?
<Obled> ...?
<Obled> si
<Obled> compartir net de mi makina con ubuntu a otra makina con win XP
<crosvera> debes tener dos tarjetas de red
<crosvera> http://mcbrain.powers.cl/?p=267
<Obled> si
<Obled> tengo dos tarjetas
<Obled> antes tenia la red compartida
<Obled> pero tenia en las dos makinas
<Obled> win XP
<Obled> ahora ke soy nuevo en Ubuntu
<Obled> pues la verdad estoy en blanco
<Obled> :o1
<crosvera> ve el link
<Obled> ok espera
<Obled> oye los comandos
<Obled> son los mismos para debian ke para ubuntu?
<crosvera> si
<crosvera> ubuntu se basa en debian
<sbalneav> Hmmm, just realized that the greeter for ldm2 doesn't have a cancel button.
<sbalneav> That's bad.
<Obled> heee
<Obled> ok
<Obled> kiza es ignorancia de mi parte
<Obled> pero esto de linux es algo nuevo para mi
<Obled> :o1
<Obled> aun asi, gracias por la ayuda
<Obled> dejame leer el link
<Obled> para ver como arreglo lo de la net!
<Obled> amable publico no tardo ahorita regreso
<aze> plop
<highvoltage> plep
<aze> highvoltage: hi
<winndixie> hi
<sbalneav> Morning all
<highvoltage> hey sbalneav
<sbalneav> Hey highvoltage
<encompass> Good morning sbalneav
<sbalneav> Morning
<moquist> hey
<moquist> anybody awake in here?
<sbalneav> me
<ray_> hi any one help me with edubuntu for a sec
<ray_> how i open /user/lib with root
<ray_> i for got or brain deqad today
#edubuntu 2008-07-21
<stalane> hi there
<stalane> can someone help me with an install model?
<stalane> ive downloaded the server, desktop and add on
<stalane> i have 10 machines in a school
<stalane> i want the kids to be able to log in from any machine
<stalane> do i have to have server/thin client or can i do this with the desktop install???
<Wixson> Hello, anyone here? :)
<ab2> hello - would just like to know if anyone has used a terminal called ebox with success?
<ab2> anyone from south africa here?
<ab2> anyone?
<bony_> can any one help me out on setting up a school lab?
<bony_> i installed ubuntu first and then added the add on cd to it
<bony_> all the systems are getting the ip from a central dhcp server
<bony_> i want to access these system by there name
<bony_> can some one give me an idea on domain's and DNS name server etc?
<ab2> hello has anyone used a terminal called an ebox on LTSP5?
#edubuntu 2008-07-22
<on3_g> hi
<superc74> hello all...i'm helping some techs set up some state testing and really pushing them to do a linux version...can someone answer a couple of questions that i can't track down on the edubuntu site?
#edubuntu 2008-07-23
<Guest98728> Hello Everyone
<Guest98728> Does anyone here know much about setting up Thin Clients?
<Honcho501> hello
<Honcho501> ï»¿is anyone having problems with add/remove applications?
#edubuntu 2008-07-24
<effie_jayx> does edubuntu have a live cd with the educational apps already in it?
<effie_jayx> I am willing to work with making one
<effie_jayx> I find it difficult at times to show people the power of edubuntu having to install , and I wonder If making a edubuntu live cd with apps makes sense
<HushPe> hi, i'm researching and playing with ubuntu for a few local schools.  is it possible to have ubuntu desktop bound to AD and provide student lock down?
<HushPe> it should be easy enough to work out mounting shares etc... but i just need to know about the lockdowns so i'm not chasing my tail
<TNKLTSP> sudo apt-get install likewise-open
<TNKLTSP> sudo domainjoin-cli join EXAMPLE.COM domainadmin
<TNKLTSP> type the password when accept
<HushPe> cool, so that will bind it all up, what about lockdown policy?
<TNKLTSP> dunno know exactly what u mean (prolly I know but I use different name about it)
<HushPe> i know with OS X i can run a second LDAP to provide my mac specific policies (i.e. can't change desktop picture, change network settings etc...)
<HushPe> so they can't run things like terminal :)
<TNKLTSP> U might be able to do it via Microsoft Services for Unix or some similiar schema extension for AD
<HushPe> ah ok
<TNKLTSP> or U might be able to do it via some other way
<HushPe> there is the lock down editor under edubuntu
<HushPe> but i believe that is specifically for gnome
<HushPe> so AD users wouldn't get that policy
<HushPe> at this stage it's a proof of concept and to show what linux is capable of to the powers-that-be
<TNKLTSP> There is some other ways to work these things around..
<HushPe> cool, i'll have more of a poke around in the documentation
<HushPe> i just wanted to make sure i wasn't chasing something that wasn't there
<HushPe> one last question... is likewise-open a better bet that doing it the samba way? (apart from the apparent time savings)
<TNKLTSP> likewise-open doesnt need any tweaking from the AD side and U can use your existing AD resources
<TNKLTSP> Ill give U an example:
<TNKLTSP> sopsaare@tuki:~$ id
<TNKLTSP> uid=363339454(sopsaare) gid=363332097(domain^users) groups=363332096(domain^admins),363332097(domain^users),363334246(primus^users),363334738(mikrotuki),363337601(tyoharjoittelijat),840465266
<TNKLTSP> sudo nano /etc/sudoers
<TNKLTSP> and the last line is:
<TNKLTSP> %miksotuki ALL=(ALL) ALL
<TNKLTSP> so all the domain users part of the WIndows group "mikrotuki" (means IT support in english) has the sudo rights
<TNKLTSP> but Samba, LDAP + kerberos needs some tweaking from AD side.
<TNKLTSP> In basic Desktop installation U can use Likewise (infact it is just tweaked and pre configured Winbind (which is infact part of the Samba suite))
<TNKLTSP> But when talking about more complicated things like LTSP (there is one "bug" which prevents me from using likewise with LTSP)
<TNKLTSP> and in my researches I have found that LDAP is more "right" way to do it, and Winbind is kind of dirty "hack"
<TNKLTSP> but Winbind (Likewise) works a way better if U dont wanna do much of tweaking in AD
<HushPe> ah ok, cheers, that helps heaps :)
<HushPe> just a side question, is there good commercial ubuntu/edubuntu support (either by community members or companies?)
<ogra> HushPe, http://www.ubuntu.com/support/paid
<TNKLTSP> Most AD's just have one Windows server sharing the home directories
<TNKLTSP> there is a way to use them too
<HushPe> we have an interesting network
<HushPe> mostly macs
<HushPe> macs for filesharing
<HushPe> windows for authentication
<TNKLTSP> NFS?
<HushPe> linux for proxy etc..
<HushPe> smb/afp
<TNKLTSP> smb could work
<TNKLTSP> but it has some bugs
<HushPe> yeah
<TNKLTSP> NFS would be better
<HushPe> >2Tb under OS X :P
<HushPe> well that was tiger
<HushPe> but works well
<TNKLTSP> we have NetApp server sharing as NFS and CIFS :)
<TNKLTSP> But I'm thinking about some workaround
<TNKLTSP> like sharing the Unix home directories by Samba for Windows (as a network drive) so ppl could just copy paste what they need to use with Linux
<TNKLTSP> Linux is coming first time for this school now
<TNKLTSP> but there I run to another problem
<TNKLTSP> I have 2003R2 Ad domain
<TNKLTSP> and some fucktard havent enabled the Unix Attributes for users
<TNKLTSP> And when sharing the files via samba
<TNKLTSP> the file owner get recognized as "Unix User\UID"
<TNKLTSP> while Linux recognised it as "DOMAIN\UID"
<TNKLTSP> as it was meant to
<TNKLTSP> (this was while using Likewise)
<HushPe> ah yep
<TNKLTSP> And while the schema wasnt extended, the Ad infact recognised that they were Unix Users but they couldnt be made part of that without schema extension (ie. Windows Services For Unix)
<HushPe> the problem here at present is the schools a funded for M$ products on wintel boxes only
<HushPe> but support/funding is like to be pulled in next few years
<HushPe> so it's a backup plan
<HushPe> ideally we'd be running os x
<HushPe> and maybe linux
<HushPe> plus i have a lot of schools in the area know that i run a lot of debian systems
<HushPe> so i'm likely to be the guy to see
<HushPe> i've never used linux as an enterprise desktop system either, so digging around to find out what i can
<HushPe> thanks TNKLTSP i'll probably be back but it's evening here so i'm about to head out
<neil_d> I have a LTSP setup for a business I was wondering if there is a howto on creating a backup computer in case the main server has a problem ?
<effie_jayx> anyone have a clue where I could find and edubuntu glossy logo I could edit ?
<stgraber> ogra: hey, I have a problem.
<stgraber> italc 1.0.9 has been released so far with -rcX instead of ~rcX, so the final release is from a dpkg point of view < than the RCs ...
<stgraber> how can I solve that kind of mess ?
<ogra> stgraber, i guess only with more mess
<ogra> (by renaming the tarball)
<stgraber> ogra: Would 1.0.9.1 help ?
<stgraber> 1.0.9 was actually released twice due to a QT bug, so calling it .1 isn't 100% false :)
<ogra> not sure, test with dpkg --compare-versions :)
<stgraber> stgraber@castiana:~$ dpkg --compare-versions 1.0.9.1-0ubuntu1 gt 1.0.9-rc4-0ubuntu1stgraber@castiana:~$ echo $?
<stgraber> 0
<stgraber> so that's ok :)
<stgraber> ogra: I have a bug with the add-on cd :(
<stgraber> http://paste.ubuntu.com/29998
<stgraber> ogra: and trying to get packages from universe, maybe a recommends problem
<ogra> oh, thats a lot
<stgraber> yes
<ogra> i wont really have time this week (and likely be massively jetlagged the next if i'm home again)
<stgraber> I've marked it as failed but we can still put that installing with internet will work fine (as a caveat)
<jinty> ignas: ping
#edubuntu 2008-07-25
<bamnet> How well does linux lend itself to providing email to students?
<smackdown> Hello - New to Edubuntu - can anyone tell me if Dans Guardian is a part of it?
<smackdown> Hello - New to Ubuntu - can anyone tell me if Dans Guardian is a part of the Edbuntu add on?
<HushPe> smackdown: what do you want to know about Dans?
<HushPe> TNKLTSP: thanks for your help last night, i've got it all bound up, and made the corresponding tweak so you don't need to login using domain\user
<HushPe> i'm trying now to grab the home folder mount point so i can mount their home directories sitting on our server, i'm having a bit of a hard time trying to find details... it's been a while since i've played around with samba - should this be straight forward?
<TNKLTSP> HushPe
<TNKLTSP> It will not pe straigth forwards... unfortunately
<TNKLTSP> (the tweak u said was "winbind use default domain" )
<TNKLTSP> look at pam_mount
<TNKLTSP> and its config
<HushPe> yeah that's the tweak TNKLTSP :)
<HushPe> ok, pam_mount was where i was looking, doesn't look as simple as the binding part ;) but no more complex than samba used to be a few years ago, so I should be able to work it through
<HushPe> dinner time
<juliux> morning
<HushPe> are there any pam_mount howtos?  I've been hunting high-and-low and turning up a blank
<generalsnus> we have skolelinux here on our school.. version 3.0..its quite old.. firefox 1.0.4 and such.. and it seems impossible to update with the newer stuff.. since i get all kinds of dependecies problems... so i was gonna try edubuntu with xfce desktop.. but is it easy possible to set it up like we have our system now?  1x ldap/samba server  3x thinclient servers.. so that the users authenticate against the ldap server..and
<smackdown> HushPe:  I need to know if it's a preconfiged package on the edubuntu add on or if i'll have to continue with a gateway in front of it..
<thebishop> hi guys
<thebishop> i'm trying to keep my boss' son occupied and he says he likes to write stories
<thebishop> is there any software that lets you write captions for pre-set illustrations or something
<Lns> thebishop, Not sure if I've heard of anything specifically like what you're asking..have you checked the web? OpenOffice gives you facilities for this (like in presenter) but it might be a bit much for the child to understand..it has tons of clipart though
<Lns> i bet there's *something* online as far as a flash site that does this... maybe?
<HushPe> i'm trying to get pam_mount working, but have cooked my install, is there a howto around?  I also have some screwy rules which vary by user (students for example are \\server.domain.com\j\jamesbond and staff are \\server.domain.com\teachers\user or \\server.domain.com\office\user (where teachers or office could be it or support or somethingelse)
<HushPe> this is against AD, of if i could pull the home folder path out, and use that to auto mount that would be even better :)
#edubuntu 2008-07-26
<use4448> i'm an ubuntu user -- want to introduce a friend to edubuntu -- can i show edubuntu to him on a live cd?
<user4448> anybody home?
<jnwry> hello
<jnwry> im a new user to ubuntu
<jnwry> looking for help with ltsp
<jnwry> i've just got it installed and running fine
<jnwry> but i don't get any sound coming out of firefox
<jnwry> on the server or on the thin clients
#edubuntu 2008-07-27
<juliux> highvoltage: ping
#edubuntu 2009-07-20
<alkisg> !info dnsmasq
<ubottu> dnsmasq (source: dnsmasq): A small caching DNS proxy and DHCP/TFTP server. In component universe, is optional. Version 2.47-3 (jaunty), package size 12 kB, installed size 112 kB
<alkisg> !info dnsmasq-base
<ubottu> dnsmasq-base (source: dnsmasq): A small caching DNS proxy and DHCP/TFTP server. In component main, is optional. Version 2.47-3 (jaunty), package size 216 kB, installed size 656 kB
<Pete_B> Hi. As I understand it, to install an Ubuntu 9.04 Education Edition server I need to boot with the Ubuntu 9.04 Alternate CD, press F4 and choose 'LTSP. However when I press F4, the only option is 'Normal'. How come?
<nubae> Pete_B, u probably did not download alternate
<nubae> and its the desktop alternate cd u need
<Pete_B> nubae: that's presicely what I think I have. It doesn;t offer 'try Ubuntu without touching the machine' menu option, so that's Alternate right?
<nubae> yeah think so
<Pete_B> nubae: why's it not on the Server CD anyway? being as LTSP's a server program?
<nubae> good question
<nubae> well, think its because it needs the desktop files
<Pete_B> I see
<Pete_B> Hey...I've just tried this CD a third time and this time the 4 options are there. How incredibly weird.
<highvoltage> Pete_B, nubae: I believe it's because LTSP needs a desktop environment to work
<Pete_B> highvoltage: thanks for that
<_UsUrPeR_> does anyone know how to change the NIC wakeonlan broadcasts from?
<LaserJock> good news people
<LaserJock> we're building a DVD! \o/
<alkisg> Yeah! Starting from the Ubuntu DVD and ripping it down?
<LaserJock> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/edubuntu/dvd/
<ogra> LaserJock, probably it would be helpful to ask cjwatson to add you to the reciever list for build failures :)
<LaserJock> and yes, right now it is *exactly* the Ubuntu DVD
<LaserJock> ogra: those are .iso build failures?
 * ogra got various chunks of mail on the WE while it was being set up and not working 
<ogra> yeah
<LaserJock> stgraber: around?
<ogra> it has to happen in the build scripts
<highvoltage> hi everyone
<LaserJock> yikes, sabayon has been removed from Debian
<highvoltage> LaserJock: why?
<LaserJock> most likely because it's been broken for so long
<LaserJock> I think Debian has had an ancient version forever
<LaserJock> and I doubt it works with Gnome 2.26
<LaserJock> unfortunately it seems that it's so dependent on distro that you have to have somebody from your distro in upstream to have a chance of keeping it working
<highvoltage> pretty much like ltsp
<LaserJock> except is seems that only Red Hat/openSUSE people are doing much, other than sbalneav
<Machi> hey guys
<Machi> Can someone help me making an internal hard drive stay mounted
<Lns> Machi...not when you leave 4 minutes after asking =p
<LaserJock> phew, so we've got to untangle these Ubuntu seeds
<Lns> LaserJock: untangle seeds?
<Michelle_Qimo1> LaserJock: it was you with whom I was talking about doing 'user guides' for the edubuntu apps, correct?  If yes, I need some input.
<LaserJock> Lns: we've got a DVD going now, but we need to figure out what files need to be added/edited to get our Edu stuff going
<LaserJock> Michelle_Qimo1: yep, what do you need?
<Michelle_Qimo1> I'm not familiar enough with Ubuntu's official documentation styles, and I'm concerned that for parents and teachers those styles will be offputting at any rate.  Would you be ok with just a guide on how the apps work?
<LaserJock> Michelle_Qimo1: yeah, maybe the first step is to just get guides on the individual apps
<Michelle_Qimo1> that's my thought, as well.
<LaserJock> then we can figure out how exactly we want to "package" it
<Michelle_Qimo1> sounds reasonable to me.  Where would you like me to put these things as I get them done?
<LaserJock> are you going to write them in docbook or wiki?
<Michelle_Qimo1> erm, right now, I am just making my notes, and will go from there.  I was thinking wiki, as I got the impression that styles weren't quite such a big deal for the wiki documentation area.
<Michelle_Qimo1> I'd like to submit them to docbook eventually, but again, am so unfamiliar with the packaging it'll take me a bit.
<LaserJock> ok, so maybe the first step would be to just wiki'ze it, which means we can also get more review/contributions
<Michelle_Qimo1> sounds good.
<mhall119|work> once the text is written, it will be significantly easier to convert
<LaserJock> Michelle_Qimo1: so how about using wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/AppGuides/ for a namespace
<Michelle_Qimo1> AppGuides would be good
<LaserJock> so just make /Edubuntu/AppGuides/<name of app> pages
<Michelle_Qimo1> mhall119|work: you can help me figure that out, right?
<mhall119|work> erm...
<Michelle_Qimo1> I'll figure it out
<Michelle_Qimo1> :-)
<mhall119|work> The Ubuntu wiki is different from mediawiki, which I am using for growingupfree.org
<LaserJock> ah, right
<LaserJock> it's moinmoin
<mhall119|work> it has nice templating features that I'm not real familiar with
<Michelle_Qimo1> ok, well, I'll go figure out something.
<Michelle_Qimo1> :-)
<LaserJock> Michelle_Qimo1: if you have a Launchpad account you can just log into the wiki and then point your browser to the URL you want to create
<LaserJock> Michelle_Qimo1: there will be an option on the page that comes up to start a new page
<Michelle_Qimo1> I do have a launchpad account.  awesome
<LaserJock> Michelle_Qimo1: as far as syntax, I think there's a quick guide at the bottom of the editor box
<Michelle_Qimo1> LaserJock: thanks for being patient with me
<LaserJock> no, thank you for being willing to contribute!
<Michelle_Qimo1> just gotta get the structure figured out.  :-D
<Michelle_Qimo1> ah ha.
<Michelle_Qimo1> excellent.
<Michelle_Qimo1> OK, wonderful.  gCompris is going to take me a couple of days to finish up, I might have to add it in parts to start with, since it's quite large in terms of game selection.
<Michelle_Qimo1> I'll keep everyone posted!
<mhall119|work> Michelle_Qimo1: remind me tonight to help you get a GPG key onto launchpad, and get the code of conduct signed
<Michelle_Qimo1> ok
<mhall119|work> it might also be good to join the Edubuntu team in launchpad: https://launchpad.net/~edubuntu-members
<Michelle_Qimo1> LaserJock: and any one else...  would my joining the team be OK?
<LaserJock> ah
<LaserJock> well, actually the Edubuntu Members is about the only team we have that has requirements for admittance
<Michelle_Qimo1> aah
<Michelle_Qimo1> ok
<LaserJock> because becoming an Edubuntu Member also gives you Ubuntu Membership so we have to have the same requirements
<LaserJock> the requirement is "significant and sustained contribution"
<LaserJock> something roughly like 2-3 of active work on the project
<Michelle_Qimo1> ok.  Well, I've been considering applying for Ubuntu membership once these App guides are rolling, so I'll add that to my list.
<mhall119|work> should we apply for Ubuntu Membership first then?
<LaserJock> no
<LaserJock> you can choose to Ubuntu Membership or Edubuntu Membership
<Michelle_Qimo1> oh
<LaserJock> the later gives you Ubuntu Membership automatically
<Michelle_Qimo1> aah
<LaserJock> so it's just up to you really
<Michelle_Qimo1> darn touchpad on my laptop.  closing things
<LaserJock> Michelle_Qimo1: yeah, I turn of the tap-to-click on my touchpad so I don't do things like that
<LaserJock> *off
<Michelle_Qimo1> mhall119|work has that on his list of things to teach me when he gets home.  :-)
<LaserJock> Michelle_Qimo1: it should be in the Touchpad tab of System -> Preferences -> Mouse
<Michelle_Qimo1> ah.  I see it
<Michelle_Qimo1> that's better, I think.
<Michelle_Qimo1> thanks.  :-)
<mhall119|work> LaserJock: there is a new Gnome utility called GPointingDeviceSettings that has some better options than just disbling tap-to-click all together
<LaserJock> cool
<mhall119|work> I think it's targetted for Karmic, but I compiled it on Jaunty and it works
<mhall119|work> has a "Palm Detection" setting, which can tell when it's your palm not fingers on the touchpad
<Michelle_Qimo1> LaserJock: thanks for your help.  I will keep you posted as I work on these appguides.
<LaserJock> Michelle_Qimo1: don't hesitate to email edubuntu-devel with your progress of if you want some advice/help
<Michelle_Qimo1> ok, will so.  :-)
<Michelle_Qimo1> do
<spursncowboys> Is anyone available on here?
<Lns> http://sev.prnewswire.com/computer-software/20090709/SF4399909072009-1.html
<Lns> !question
<ubottu> Please don't ask to ask a question, simply ask the question (all on ONE line, so others can read and follow it easily). If anyone knows the answer they will most likely reply. :-)
<Lns> spursncowboys: ^^ :)
<spursncowboys> Hi lns
<Lns> hi spursncowboys
<Lns> lol
<Lns> afk, bbl
<highvoltage> hi Lns
<Lns> hey highvoltage
#edubuntu 2009-07-21
<LaserJock> Launchpad has just been open-sourced!
<highvoltage> LaserJock: \o/
<LaserJock> that's what I thought :-)
<LaserJock> highvoltage: btw, alpha 3 is coming up Thursday
<ogra> see, MS commits code to the kernel and immediately later LP is opensourced :)
<jsgotangco> alpha 3 wow that's fast
<LaserJock> ogra: yeah, I can't imagine what's next, maybe -intel drivers that work or something crazy like that
<ogra> hehe
<highvoltage> ogra: nice observation!
<highvoltage> LaserJock: intel drivers are made out of niceness on karmic
<LaserJock> highvoltage: so I've heard
<highvoltage> LaserJock: I tried to download that dvd iso last night, but it got stuck on 10MB and just retried the download throughout until this morning
<LaserJock> highvoltage: well, it's only going to be very useful as something to rsync from at this point
<LaserJock> we need to actually make a change for there to be anything significant
<LaserJock> I'm not sure how we change the bootsplash, but that's something that should get done
<LaserJock> and then as a first step make it use edubuntu-desktop instead of ubuntu-desktop for the Live part
<highvoltage> LaserJock: the syslinux bootsplash?
<LaserJock> yeah
<highvoltage> ogra: can I quote you on that? The "MS commits code.." line?
<LaserJock> we need to re-theme the DVD now that Edubuntu is back
<ogra> highvoltage, heh, if you feel like
<LaserJock> I wonder if I can put my thesis online when I'm done
<highvoltage> laserjock-thesis-online.com
<ogra> .com ?
<highvoltage> (if the domain squatters haven't taken it yet)
<ogra> .edu you mean :)
<highvoltage> oops, .us
<highvoltage> oh right
<LaserJock> not that more than a handful of people would find it interesting
<LaserJock> but you know, I've worked a lot on it, it's kinda sad if *nobody* reads it
<LaserJock> I'm not sure if I can put it online though
<LaserJock> stupid academics suck for licensing
<highvoltage> LaserJock: I'm not an acedemic so I don't always understand so well... what's the point of writing a thesis again?
<LaserJock> you do all this work and then you sign over the copyright
<ogra> put it in ubuntuone and only share it with specific people ;)
<LaserJock> the point of the thesis is to show original research
<LaserJock> it is what you "defend" to get a PhD
<LaserJock> but in the sciences anyway, it's so specific that hardly anybody is actually interested
<LaserJock> so the biggest point right now is that grad students in my lab that follow me have a reference for what I did
<highvoltage> LaserJock: http://imglol-secure.s3.amazonaws.com/79f7549e81.png?AWSAccessKeyId=1ZA6N11XRH5XQJCZ7MG2&Expires=1248164660&Signature=sReTqtUy6ZWZqm5IBa2H1Rqi2TY%3D
<LaserJock> highvoltage: hahahaha
<LaserJock> so true
<LaserJock> I love wikipedia
<LaserJock> it's a great research source, but you gotta go back to the originals
<LaserJock> I was using it for some data
<LaserJock> and it turns out it wasn't *exactly* right
<highvoltage> heh, well at least it is a nice source for getting links to original sources
<LaserJock> it's great if you want to just know what a subject is
<LaserJock> like if I want to look up Brewster's Angle or Fresnel Equations or Surface Plasmon Resonance Spectroscopy :-)
<Svenstaro> #ubuntu-installer people say no plugins exist for the installer to account for installation profile and that the plugin system isn't done. Not even the slideshow part. May I now just branch it?
<LaserJock> Svenstaro: did they say how hard it would be to get the plugin system going?
<Svenstaro> People are working on it but I don't want to wait.
<Svenstaro> I'm waiting all the time for people to finish their stuff and it will never be done.
<mhall119|work> Svenstaro: I'm sure they would appreciate you contributing to the plugin stuff
<mhall119|work> if they currently have something written, it would be nice if you could use it for what you want, and fill in any missing functionality  you need from it
<LaserJock> I think the installer thing is going to be a long-term thing
<LaserJock> we should look at what is best to do for 10.04 because it will be our stable, LTS release
<LaserJock> for karmic I think we're too late to do much
<Svenstaro> It's just hacking in an aditional dialog slider with a drop down menue and some explainations. I don't think it's going to be particularly hard.
<Svenstaro> Aw come on. Still a lot of time.
<LaserJock> look
<LaserJock> we don't even have an .iso yet
<LaserJock> we haven't fixed any bugs
<LaserJock> we haven't written any documentation
<LaserJock> there's a lot to do
<LaserJock> and 1) it's not a great idea to fork the installer and 2) we'd have to maintain the change going forward
<Svenstaro> Then let's create an ISO already. Shout at the CD-baker guys and provide the preseed.
<LaserJock> we have a DVD being built
<LaserJock> but nobody has worked out the seeds yet
<LaserJock> no biggie, but I think it's wise to kinda look at first things first
<LaserJock> my guess is for Karmic we'll need to just install all the Main edu apps
<LaserJock> and then leave the Universe ones as .debs that can be installed from the DVD post-install
<LaserJock> there's also the issue of trying to do some sort of Live LTSP setup
<Svenstaro> All that stuff just can't be too hard. Preseeds are text documents with package names in them, aren't they?
<LaserJock> well, but there is a web of about 10 of them we have to figure out right
<LaserJock> it's not huge but it takes somebody doing it
<LaserJock> one of the biggest issues with forking the installer is keeping it in sync with the main Ubiquity
<Svenstaro> I assumed so. I'll just be contributing to trunk, then.
<LaserJock> I'm quite worried about us getting out of sync with Ubuntu on this thing
<LaserJock> since it's technically possible for us to have a different kernel, different installer, etc.
<LaserJock> we need to stick tight
<Svenstaro> I imagine that some stuff NEEDS to get out of sync in order to move forward.
<LaserJock> the Ubuntu stuff should be 100% the same
<mhall119|work> Svenstaro: can you make your changes such that they can be used in a regular Ubuntu install?
<LaserJock> we should basically just be adding stuff
<Svenstaro> mhall119|work, if I put my changes to trunk, sure.
<Svenstaro> Why are there multiple Edubuntu preseeds, anywayÃ
<Svenstaro> You will know which of them have been used for the current addons cd, no?
<LaserJock> right, but a DVD is much more complicated
<mhall119|work> Svenstaro: if you can make a general-purpose profile selector, and get that into the mainline installer, that would be best I think
<LaserJock> the Edubuntu seed inherit the Ubuntu seeds
<mhall119|work> rather than Edubuntu maintaining it's own
<LaserJock> we have seeds for ubuntu-edu-{preschool,primary,secondary,tertiary} and then edubuntu-desktop and edubuntu-desktop-kde
<LaserJock> then you have the dvd seed
<LaserJock> and the dvd-live seed
<LaserJock> those depend on live and desktop seeds
<LaserJock> what we need to figure out is how to properly override the Ubuntu seeds so that we basically have the ubuntu DVD + Edubuntu stuff
<LaserJock> and right now we're in Alpha 3 freeze
<LaserJock> so messing around with the seeds is probably not a great idea
<LaserJock> after Alpha 3 then we can start changing things and seeing how they work out in the daily build
<Svenstaro> Let's just not care about the Ubuntu timeline when Edubuntu is in a kind of "emergency".
<LaserJock> we have to
<LaserJock> we really need to base off of Ubuntu otherwise we create a huge headache
<LaserJock> so a little extra work in figuring out the initial seed setup should help us in future maintainability
<LaserJock> perhaps this weekend I can figure that out
<sbalneav> Is edubuntu in an emergency?
 * sbalneav looks around?
<Svenstaro> sbalneav, I'd say so, yes.
<sbalneav> What emergency?
<LaserJock> well, in terms of getting things done for Karmic we need to get going
<Svenstaro> Why not just create a list of all packages on the addon CD and put it into a preseed, done?
<LaserJock> Svenstaro: because that's not how it works :-)
<LaserJock> we will use the addon CD seeds
<LaserJock> but you have to account for both the Live part of the DVD and the .deb pool
<LaserJock> and then task name changes (that can kind of a bear, I screwed that up last time)
<LaserJock> in any case, it'll be done for karmic
<LaserJock> but what exactly we want to install and when is more of an issue
<LaserJock> *what we want
<LaserJock> nvm
<LaserJock> I'll be back in a sec, got to run some paperwork to the grad school
<Svenstaro> So then, it's back to waiting for me?
<sbalneav> Why not pitch in help with bugs?  Or help me with docs?  Or help me to get sabayon functioning?
<sbalneav> We've got tons of work to do.
<Svenstaro> Sabayon is the application to spawn an X11 Nest to customize user profiles?
<sbalneav> yes.
<sbalneav> Or, jump in and become a member of the Ubuquity team.
<Svenstaro> Can you quickly link me a list of open issues with Sabayon?
<sbalneav> Bug #150068 is a good one.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 150068 in sabayon "Sabayon editor crashes when trying to make a change in a profile" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/150068
<sbalneav> That's the one I'm working on now.
<sbalneav> Sabayon isn't "dead upstream", but it's "feeling-very-poorly-and-has-a-nasty-hacking-cough upstream"
<sbalneav> so I'm rapidly seeing I'm going to have to kick in upstream.
<sbalneav> there'
<sbalneav> there's lots of ther bugs as well:
<Svenstaro> Wait, does Sabayon have mass-edit functionality?
<Svenstaro> For example if I wanted all users, one for every computer, to see the same thing when they autologin?
<Svenstaro> Create one dummy profile using Sabayon and copy it over to every user saved on the LTSP server?
<sbalneav> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/~edubuntu-bugs/+packagebugs
<sbalneav> Svenstaro: yes, sabayon has that ability
<sbalneav> to apply profiles to single, or groups of users.
<Svenstaro> How do Sabayon and Pessulus relate to eachother?
<LaserJock> Svenstaro: Sabayon actually has a copy of Pessulus in it
<Lns> Svenstaro: in that they both help administrators configure user accounts en mass :)
<Svenstaro> Does it make Pressulus obsoleteÃ
<LaserJock> Svenstaro: Pessulus is useful if you don't need full profile management, but only does a limited number of things (related to gconf)
<LaserJock> no
<LaserJock> they're slightly different tasks
<Svenstaro> Wouldn't it make sense from a user perspective if those user account management tools would be one and the same?
<LaserJock> well, *if* you want both you just use Sabayon
<Svenstaro> So Edubuntu will only contain Sabayon?
<LaserJock> but many people don't want both, so Pessulus is also shipped separately
<LaserJock> no, both
<LaserJock> for instance, Sabayon has been broken for 1+ years
<LaserJock> while Pessulus is still being maintained upstream and is pretty much "Just Works" for what it does
<LaserJock> so if you don't want to control the entire desktop then Pessulus may work better
<Svenstaro> Which branch do I fork for my working copy? There are 4 candidates that appear to be quite recent.
<Svenstaro> What's the difference between the ubuntu branch and the upstream branch?
<Svenstaro> And why is the trunk older than those branchesÃ
<LaserJock> Svenstaro: where are you looking?
<Svenstaro> https://code.edge.launchpad.net/sabayon
<Svenstaro> And why is there a subversion version as well?
<LaserJock> Svenstaro: sabayon upstream used to be SVN
<LaserJock> Svenstaro: now it's in git
<Svenstaro> isn't it bazaar?
<LaserJock> Launchpad mirrors it into bzr
 * Lns has had lots of problems w/Pessulus and gave up on it a while ago 
<sbalneav> I'm working off of a 2.25 upstream branch I took a month or so ago.
<LaserJock> but Gnome doesn't use bzr
<Svenstaro> So we have a Bazaar repo that was a Git repo that was a SVN repo?
<LaserJock> well, technically not yet
<LaserJock> the bzr repo is still mirroring the svn repo
<LaserJock> which is now read-only
<LaserJock> so the bzr mirror needs to be updated to point to the git repo
<LaserJock> but yeah, that's the general idea :-)
<LaserJock> but that would be the right branch to grab
<LaserJock> bzr branch lp:sabayon
<LaserJock> it's 14 weeks old but you're probably not missing much :-)
<Svenstaro> Why do you Ubunu folks always tend to make stuff so complicated :/. Oh well, lp:sabayon it is.
<LaserJock> well, we're not making complicated
<LaserJock> we're actually making it easier
<LaserJock> but the behind the scenes stuff can get a bit scary
<Svenstaro> That's what I meant.
<LaserJock> Launchpad could have no code hosting whatsoever, so you'd have to go find the branch from upstream
<Svenstaro> The devs suffer so it's easier for the user :/
<LaserJock> in this case get the git clone
<LaserJock> and then try to match that with the bzr branches used for packaging
<LaserJock> in this case getting the code is as easy as: bzr branch lp:sabayon
<Svenstaro> I'd simply export my SVN repo to my harddisk, shut down the SVN on whereever I used to host it and put up my GIT server and add my exported stuff to GIT afterwards.
<Svenstaro> There even is a SVN-GIT converter.
<LaserJock> sure
<LaserJock> but that's just one upstream
<LaserJock> if you're dealing with multiple upstreams, with different VCSes, and then your trying to have packaging branches, etc.
<Svenstaro> Meh, let's stop discussing this. I'll cope with the overhead for now.
<LaserJock> having LP just mirror it all into bzr makes it a lot easier
<LaserJock> well, you don't *have* to use it if you don't want to
<LaserJock> it's just if you want to use bzr that's where it is
<LaserJock> if you want to use upstream's git go for it
<LaserJock> I do it sometimes
<Svenstaro> It would help if there were *one* definitive resource and one *definitive* way to contribute code.
<LaserJock> of course
<LaserJock> but this is open source
<LaserJock> Launchpad is trying to give that definitive resource
<sbalneav> People like to branch things, remember? :)
<LaserJock> but it has to deal with thousands of independent projects, so it's messy sometimes
<Svenstaro> If the projects have their own code hosting don't use Launchpad.
<Svenstaro> No reason to make it appear in two different places.
<LaserJock> right, but then you don't have the definitive resource
<sbalneav> Heading home for the day.  I'll be on later tonight.
#edubuntu 2009-07-22
<Ahmuck-Jr> edubuntu offer mentoring?
<sbalneav> Morning all
<mhall119|work> morning
<sbalneav> Morning LaserJock!
<sbalneav> how was the Dis. yesterday?
<LaserJock> meh
<LaserJock> still working on it :(
<LaserJock> hopefully done by noon
<sbalneav> Go, go gadget LaserJock
 * Lns missed the meeting, huh..?
<sbalneav> Was there one today?
<Lns> thought there was? it was in my calendar...maybe i'm hallucinating
<sbalneav> There was one last week.
<sbalneav> You could just be really late :)
<Lns> hahaha..no, i was there...jeez, weird.
<Lns> no, it was in the last meeting's minutes... Next Scheduled Meeting: * Wednesday, 22 July 2009  * 13:00 UTC
<sbalneav> Well, entirely possible we both missed it.
<Lns> doh
<highvoltage> eesh, I guess we all did, I forgot to diarise it
<Lns> heh
<Lns> I win, i was the only one that remembered! woot
 * Lns pats his Sunbird
<sbalneav> Well, we'll see what that shakes up
#edubuntu 2009-07-23
<ace_suares> hi
<ace_suares> I'd like to clean up the www.edubuntu.org website, how to go about that? Who is maintaining now and with what software?
<ace_suares> oops wronmg channel
<ace_suares> bye
<sbalneav> ace_suares: Nope, right channel
<sbalneav> First step would probably be to become an edubuntu member.
<sbalneav> You do that by contributing to edubuntu for a while, then asking the edubuntu council for membership.
<sbalneav> == 1. Edubuntu Website ==
<sbalneav> * Phillip Schroder has indicated that he won't have any more time to
<sbalneav> work on website
<sbalneav> So philip used to maintain it, but he's fallen dark lately
<sbalneav> First step would probably be helping to clean up the wiki.
<sbalneav> ace_suares: Also:
<sbalneav> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP
<ace_suares> yawn.... lengthy procedures... yawn...
<ace_suares> I did some digging around and the info is all over the place.
<ace_suares> Do you thionk that https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP should be the central place for ltsp related stuff?
<ace_suares> Ans is this http://wiki.ltsp.org/twiki/bin/view/Ltsp/LtspDocumentationUpstream the 68 pages of docs you are referring to on the mailing list???
<ace_suares> What tool is used to update the website?
<ace_suares> Ah the meetings, last week: http://www.nabble.com/Minutes-from-Edubuntu-Meeting,-16-July-2009-td24529541.html
<ace_suares> man the meeting  was today...
<ace_suares> I missed it :-(
<sbalneav> ace_suares: Did you not read the part of my email that talked about how being a part of a community might involve some procedures that take a while?
<ace_suares> Unfortunately, I suppressed those parts
<sbalneav> Do you want to take this seriously or not?
<ace_suares> I spent several hours now thinking anout it, doing some research on how actually the current situation is, discussing things
<sbalneav> I've spent 10 years.
<sbalneav> so?
<ace_suares> Yeah on this one topic but there are so many topics
<sbalneav> I've spent 20 years on LOTS of topics.
<ace_suares> I am jus tthinking how I could be involved
<ace_suares> it doesnt seem to fit my style or wishes very much
<sbalneav> Then that's fine.
<sbalneav> No one's forcing anyone to join.
<ace_suares> Of course I do understand not anyone who just flies by can be left to change the website
<sbalneav> And so far, that description fits you to a tee.
<ace_suares> so there is some thing really worth pondering
<ace_suares> I could in my own style very quickly make a website the way it hink it should be done
<sbalneav> You sure could
<ace_suares> and then show it to the group and let them decide if they wanna go with it
<sbalneav> so could 300 other people.
<ace_suares> that woudl avoid the lengthy procedures and keep me interested
<ace_suares> 300 people?
<ace_suares> wow
<ace_suares> that many people actually want to improve the website ?
<sbalneav> Let *who* decide?
<sbalneav> Who's going to decide who goes with what?
<ace_suares> let the same people that decide to become a edubuntu team member do the deciding
<sbalneav> The people who have decided to become edubuntu members (of which there are very few) have *already* decided.
<sbalneav> We have a website
<sbalneav> we have a wiki
<sbalneav> We need people to work on them.
<ace_suares> Okay, thanks
<ace_suares> Good luck in finding them then...
<sbalneav> If every person who comes along says, "I'll work on the site, but only if we completely change how it's done, including hosting, engine, etc.", we'd never get anywhere
<sbalneav> Well, that person can be *you*
<ace_suares> Hi LaserJock
<sbalneav> But you need to work within the structure we've already got.
<ace_suares> My attention is drawn to another round of Warzone 2100
<sbalneav> OK, have fun with the game.
<ace_suares> been playing that for 40 hours since last friday
<LaserJock> ah, hello folks
<ace_suares> Hi LJ
<mhall119> ace_suares: did you get my email earlier abot growingupfree.org?
<ace_suares> mhall119
<ace_suares> yeah didn't look at it
<ace_suares> Maybe i should
<mhall119> ace_suares: we're trying to promote charity and technology, so feel free to use the wiki to post stories
<ace_suares> okay will do
<mhall119> or create a blog
<ace_suares> I installed Qimo a coupld of days ago
<ace_suares> wasnt much impressed sorry
<mhall119> you'
<ace_suares> I'd like to dscuss with you on another channel and another time
<ace_suares> is that okay?
<sbalneav> ace_suares: You'd need to know how to edit a wiki.  My offer of instruction still stands.
<mhall119> you're probably older than our target demographic
<ace_suares> mhall119 i do have kids
<mhall119> sure, #qimo is out channel
<mhall119> ace_suares: it was a joke
<ace_suares> kay will see you there in a coupe of days
<mhall119> if I'm not responding, leave a message and I'll see it when I get back
<ace_suares> sbalneav: editing a wiki is not the hard part. I complained about it because I wanted to make a quick change. Prompted by YOUR remark: why do you post it where no one will read instead of the LTSP portal
<sbalneav> Right.
<ace_suares> Yeah right scotty :-)
<ace_suares> I still feel I am getting nowhere tough
<ace_suares> But I am still here.
<sbalneav> But I'm willing to *show you how to edit a wiki*
<sbalneav> RIGHT NOW
<ace_suares> sbalneav: your offer is much appreciated but I think I can find the manual to the wiki
<ace_suares> it's the way inforamtion is organized that strikes me as inefficient
<ace_suares> and i'd rather talk to you about the structure of the wiki and what is imporetat (that goes first)
<sbalneav> Ok, so what's more efficient than a wiki
<ace_suares> sbalneav: i have no clue
<ace_suares> sbalneav: maybe the wiki is the more efficient but the structure of the information is waht I am talking about
<sbalneav> If you have ideas about how the wiki could be better organized, man, go nuts!
<ace_suares> I do.
<LaserJock> well
<LaserJock> we have to be a bit more analytical
<LaserJock> there are reasons why the wiki is in a bit of a mess
<ace_suares> Or at least I am thinking about that and proabbaly with the help of others it will be an improvement
<LaserJock> a large part is people just randomly "fixing" things
<ace_suares> LaserJock: tell me more ...
<sbalneav> Exactly, so, we're here, right now, lets talk about it.
<LaserJock> ok
<ace_suares> LaserJock: it's inheritable in a wiki thats what a wiki is
<LaserJock> so we have too many wiki pages, on both wikis
<ace_suares> random people do random things
<LaserJock> well
<LaserJock> not necessarily
<ace_suares> result is random information structurew
<LaserJock> but a couple of thoughts
<ace_suares> I am listening. I'll shut up for a while :-)
<LaserJock> 1) we need to figure out what things need to be done, *without* getting bogged down into spending all our time finding what's wrong without fixing it
<LaserJock> 2) we need to clearly separate wiki.ubuntu.com from help.ubuntu.com/community
<LaserJock> 3) good quality, stable documentation needs to most likely move to edubuntu.org
<LaserJock> 4) make good use of the ltsp.org docs
<sbalneav> Thoughts on that when you're done.
<LaserJock> I'm done for the moment
<sbalneav> Ok
<sbalneav> I've been reading up for the last hour or so on moin, and specifically, docbook export/import.
<sbalneav> One of our problems/desires has always been a way to wikify the handbook, go to/from dockbook
<sbalneav> so we can, at release time, take a "snapshot" of the updates, and turn them into yelpable xml for the handboook.
<sbalneav> I've found some xml2mediawiki scripts that could be modified.
<LaserJock> what about moin < -- > html ?
<sbalneav> Here's one suggestion.  We'd have to coordinate with whoever:
<mhall119> making a conversion script shouldn't be hard
<ace_suares> LaserJock: my tought exactly. Why is yelp and docbook needed?
<sbalneav> 1) Create a moin instance on handbook.edubuntu.org
<mhall119> I can put something together in perl or python if you can't find a good ready-made solution
<LaserJock> mhall119: it sorta is though, one has been in development for a couple years now
<sbalneav> ace_suares: Lots of pepople in third world countries don't have ready/reliable access to the internet.
<sbalneav> if all our docs are internet only, these people are "docless"
<LaserJock> well, it isn't strictly necessary
<ace_suares> sbalneav: forgive my ignorance, but local html structure is not sufficient?
<LaserJock> ace_suares: there isn't a good way of getting HTML to the user
<ace_suares> /usr/share/doc/ltsp/html
<LaserJock> yelp is the defacto help system in Gnome
<sbalneav> ace_suares: XML in yelp gives them a nice searchable interface
<mhall119> what format does yelp use?
<LaserJock> docbook
<sbalneav> docbook
<mhall119> ok
<sbalneav> so, back to my idear
<LaserJock> it *can* use HTML too  but it's pretty slow if I remember right
<sbalneav> 1) handbook.edubuntu.org
<ace_suares> sbalneav: LaserJock okay so srticking with docbook makes it searchable, good point, i am converted.
<mhall119> what's a good app for writing docbook files?
<sbalneav> make a first upload of the current handbook + ltsp docs
<sbalneav> 2) let people loose for a while.  Maybe have lessons on maintaining structure, etc.
<mhall119> sbalneav: a style guideline or template would be nice too
<sbalneav> come release time, moin->docbook->edubuntu-handbook.deb
<sbalneav> mhall119: Sure.
<sbalneav> Well, there *is* no good docbook editor, other than vi or emacs :(
<sbalneav> Which is why wikifying it would make it more accessible to the user.
<mhall119> any apps that will exxport to docbook?
<sbalneav> Moin will, supposedly
<LaserJock> kinda
<sbalneav> which is our wiki
<LaserJock> I'm not convinced of converting formats I don't think
<sbalneav> Well, and if it's not perfect, then we do the old a) patch moin b) send moin patches upstream c) blah blah dance.
<LaserJock> it sounds nice and all
<LaserJock> but we have such a hard time getting the docs put together
<LaserJock> I can imagine all kinds of things going wrong
<mhall119> if we had it in docbook first, it might work better ging from that to moin
<sbalneav> We have the docbook
<mhall119> then could we make a simple XSL to turn it into moin markup?
<ace_suares> sbalneav: i like the tought of making an easy accressible starting point and then convert it to something arcane and difficult to maintain. At least the starting point is then more open to contributors
<sbalneav> the problem is, if we wikify it, and ace_suares starts adding pages and pages of good info, then how do we get that BACK into the original xml
<mhall119> right
<mhall119> okay then, does moin produce xhtml?
<LaserJock> an individual page isn't a problem
<LaserJock> it's structure that's the issue
<sbalneav> Well, and we'll have to control that, somehow.
<LaserJock> well, we *could* just use moin :-)
<LaserJock> a self-contained moin instance with all our pages
<sbalneav> Then we have to have a web server running on the box in order for people to read docs
<sbalneav> Not impossible, but seems overkill
<sbalneav> If it's a case of having someone to commit to keeping the structure clean, and managing the conversion process, I'll commit to that.
<sbalneav> if it means more people contribute, it's better than the solo effort it is now.
<sbalneav> I don't think we can have anything in place for karmic, it's too soon.  But it would be great to have this for the LTS release.
<LaserJock> no, we don't have to have a web server
<ace_suares> If the only reason to use docbook is that it's standard for gnome?
<sbalneav> and I think it's doable in that timeframe.
<sbalneav> Does moin run as a standalone process?
<LaserJock> ace_suares: it's also translatable
<ace_suares> but to make it searchable, can we not create an index page in html ?
<LaserJock> sbalneav: you can yes
<LaserJock> sbalneav: it has it's own little webserver built in
<ace_suares> LaserJock: hmm but is the moin translatable?
<sbalneav> Yeah, that's another + for docbook
<LaserJock> ace_suares: not easily no
<LaserJock> ace_suares: wiki.ubuntu.com and help.ubuntu.com/community are all English
<sbalneav> We're all talking english here.  Translations are something that could be handled the other way.
<ace_suares> LaserJock: so you want translaters to translate docbook and then? export to languagexyz.moin.edubuntu.org?
<LaserJock> well
<LaserJock> I'm not positive
<LaserJock> I'm not sure I like the idea of either wiki or docbook, tbh
<ace_suares> what about updates to the english mon, which result in a new docbook, will the translators easily integrate the translation into that new docbook too?
<LaserJock> the wiki is easy to edit, but it lacks structure and is difficult to get off
<ace_suares> LaserJock: +1 for that last thought
<sbalneav> LaserJock: OK, what else then?  I'm open to suggestions.  It's in docbook now, but it's just an excercise in text processing to get it into something else.
<LaserJock> docbook is harder to create, but works for local viewing pretty well
<sbalneav> Local viewing's a must, IMHO
<LaserJock> well, I believe ideally we should put as much on edubuntu.org as possible
<LaserJock> well, it is and it isn't
<ace_suares> so there is two issues here, or three:
<LaserJock> it's one of those things where the vast majority of users won't view the local docs
<ace_suares> 1. locally readable AND searchable
<LaserJock> but if they need to they *really* need to
<ace_suares> 2. online easy to edit but with a good strcuture
<ace_suares> 3. translations
<sbalneav> right, and because of my involvement in Brazil, I know a lot of places in SA that *really* need it.
<ace_suares> can we agree on these 3 issues and then work from there
<sbalneav> ace_suares: We already do agree on those three things :) The problem is, there's no good solution that does all three :)
<LaserJock> I think my priorities might be slightly different
<LaserJock> I primarily want to see 1) good structure and 2) good location
<LaserJock> frankly I don't care so much if it's easy to edit
<LaserJock> I'd take easy to maintain over easy to edit
<ace_suares> LaserJock: with 2 you mean good online location?
<LaserJock> both online and offline
<ace_suares> sbalneav: for offline, the only requirement is searchability?
<LaserJock> I don't want it stuck in some remote folder on the users computer and I don't want it at some URL people won't find
<LaserJock> we really don't utilize edubuntu.org
<LaserJock> it's got a CMS for goodness sakes and we hardly use it
<ace_suares> LaserJock: all docs go to /usr/share/doc and maybe you can make a menu itme for it?
<sbalneav> ace_suares: Searchability would be *nice*, but I'd say, from the use case I'm looking to fill, having ANYTHING available offline would be good.
<ace_suares> LaserJock: what CMS is used for the edubuntu.org site?
<LaserJock> drupal
<sbalneav> When I did the handbook in docbook, I got lots of good comments about having it available via yelp.
<ace_suares> sbalneav: if searchability is not an issue i propose the following:
<mhall119> I think making the docs yelp-able is a big plus
<ace_suares> - for offline reading we use a html copy (mirror, wget, httrack generated) version of the online version
<ace_suares> - and create an index for it (that can be automated i guess).
<ace_suares> Is that workable? can we agree?
<mhall119> I think Xubuntu (and therefore Qimo) also uses yelp
<ace_suares> personally i dislike yelp, well not yelp but the fact that with most of the apps you press F1 and half a documents shows up...
<sbalneav> ace_suares: It's not just up to us, though.  We'd have to discuss it at a meeting.  People like Ahmuck, nubae, etc, might also have thoughts, input, etc.
<mhall119> ace_suares: yelp is the standard help browser though
<ace_suares> also, the docs are nver started up from an app, becaue there is no gui for ltsp
<mhall119> ace_suares: are you talking about just ltsp docs?
<sbalneav> right, but back in 7.04, off the "Help" icon on the top bar, the edubuntu handbook was one of the toplevel sections.
<ace_suares> sbalneav: i know i just asked it you and lj can agree on that with me. then we can bring it to any meeting :-)
<ace_suares> sbalneav:  oh, is there ahelp button? You could make a one page yelp/docbook that links to the proper html docs???
<Ahmuck> sbalneav: ?
 * Ahmuck needs to backread
<ace_suares> mhall119 yes
<sbalneav> Well, it's a fine idea, but others may have better ideas, so until we discuss it at a meeiting, I'll just say, if going from moin->html will allow us to move forward, and there's no other better option, I'd be happy with it.
<ace_suares> sbalneav: you summoned Ahmuck :-)
<ace_suares> sbalneav: good enough for me
<LaserJock> I would generally favor not using the wiki
<LaserJock> in terms of deliverable stuff
<ace_suares> Okay we are now in part 2 of my 3 point list :-)
 * sbalneav casts mysitcal attack of Ahmuck summoning +1 with fireball.
 * Ahmuck wakes up from my sleep and shakes the icicles off of his fur
<LaserJock> I would rather take the wild wild west that is the wiki and turn that content into docbook
<sbalneav> Where's my 20 sided dice, I need a saving throw
<LaserJock> and then maybe try to do docbook -> edubuntu.org
 * ace_suares is struck with awe at the rise of the might Ahmuck 
<sbalneav> LaserJock: That was my first idea :)
<LaserJock> but the other consideration here
<LaserJock> is that currently Ubuntu documentation is not written as a guide
<LaserJock> but rather a set of individual topics
<Ahmuck> indivudual topics can be joined to be a guide
<ace_suares> LJ yeah and the topic overlap, are misnamed, sometimes outdated etc etc
<sbalneav> That was why I was suggesting the handbook.edubuntu.org, to conceptually separate it from the other
<Ahmuck> my problem with ubuntu documentation is that information overload - google wise
<LaserJock> right
<sbalneav> i.e. topics regular place, guide on handbook.
<LaserJock> I'm not sure how easy it would be to have a handbook.edubuntu.org
<LaserJock> we'd have to get CIS involved
<LaserJock> but it's a good idea I think
<sbalneav> If we don't ask, the answer's no :)
<ace_suares> sbalneav: you are proposing a seperate handbook website and a 'topics' website.
<sbalneav> Right.
<ace_suares> CIS ? bot, please explain!
<sbalneav> we already have the topics
<ace_suares> !CIS
<ubottu> Sorry, I don't know anything about CIS
<sbalneav> if we create the handbook, that can be the "guide" site.
<LaserJock> ace_suares: Canonical Information System
<LaserJock> ace_suares: the sysadmins for ubuntu
<ace_suares> LJ wow gooooood acronym
<sbalneav> LaserJock: Who would I beg/pester/buy a beer for on that?
<LaserJock> maybe the EC
<LaserJock> and then we can do a formal proposal to CIS
<sbalneav> I can start an initial dialogue, and have a "No friggin way/mmmmmmmaybe/Sure!  When you want it" answer for the next meeting
<ace_suares> sbalneav: I think a good idea to seperate the two. The handbook is for 'setting it all up' and the topics is for 'X on Thincan deosnt work'
<LaserJock> well, it'd be possible
<sbalneav> right.
<LaserJock> but the question is will it be easy enough to make it worth while
<sbalneav> And, to get the initial content for handbook, we just docbook -> wiki
<LaserJock> we don't have direct access to the machine
<sbalneav> instant content
<sbalneav> we clean it up
<sbalneav> people contribute
<ace_suares> yawn... another lengthy procedure... why not just host the testverson somehwere and then when it's ready pester CIS/EC/politburo/Mark ?
<LaserJock> so it'd need to be either a wiki instance or a part of the drupal instance
<LaserJock> I doubt they want to set up yet another wiki
<sbalneav> then wiki -> docbook, and instant yelp docks/pdf heck we can ever generate html from the docbook
<LaserJock> and if it's in drupal we might as well do edubuntu.org/handbook
<ace_suares> LJ so the site is drupal? doesnt' that have tons of good features like wiki inside drupal ???
<ace_suares> http://cwgordon.com/how-to-create-a-wiki-with-drupal
<sbalneav> ace_suares: dude, you run a business.  Do you just get people to hand you cash under the table, or do you participate in lenghtly procedures like filing taxes, registering business names, sending invoices, etc.
<LaserJock> ace_suares: stuff like that, but any plugin has to go through a security review
<ace_suares> cash under the table at all times preferred
<sbalneav> procedures are what keeps the order (what there is) from becoming total chaos
<ace_suares> sbalneav: apparently not if you look at hte current wiki. smile.
<sbalneav> right
<LaserJock> I hate to say it, but I'm not really sure this is a technical issue
<sbalneav> so.... LETS FOLLOW PROCEDURE AND DO IT RIIIIIIIIIGGGGHT!!!!!!!
<ace_suares> LJ of course the security reveiw is needed
<sbalneav> yeeesh :)
<LaserJock> we basically always come back to: do it they way we do it, but better
<LaserJock> we just don't have people actually doing stuff
<Ahmuck> how are you going to get the "guide" to the top of googling?
<LaserJock> other than sbalneav of course :-)
<sbalneav> And LaserJock , and a few others
<sbalneav> I'm certainly not alone.
<ace_suares> I am just saying this: we don't know what will really work. Moin, wiki, docbook, conversions, drupal, drupal with wiki... lets set up some snadboxes and evaluate, predesign, prestructure and such.
<ace_suares> THEN follow procedures
<sbalneav> there's just soooo much to do.
<mhall119> ace_suares: set it up then
<ace_suares> LJ how the hell can i DO stuff when there is no plan where to go and apart from that all kinds of hurdles?
<ace_suares> That was wat trigered for me the whole new involvement in edubuntu
<LaserJock> well
<LaserJock> I can tell you exactly what to do
<LaserJock> :-)
<ace_suares> mhall119 i will but not if it's frowned upon
<ace_suares> lj well, tell me see if I already know and rejected it :-)
<Ahmuck> sit and wait ?
<mhall119> ace_suares: do it with your own resources
<sbalneav> There *is* a procedure.  But it takes time.
<LaserJock> what we need is for somebody to go through wiki.ubuntu.com and move all user documentation to help.ubuntu.com/community
<ace_suares> sit and wait worked great. I sat and waited for localdev - great! now localapps - great!
<sbalneav> It takes 3 years, minimum to become a debian developer.
<ace_suares> mhall119 of course i have plentuy of that.
<mhall119> ace_suares: don't we all :)
<ace_suares> sbalneav: dont want to be a debian dev ata ll
<LaserJock> and then we need to take all the help.ubuntu.com/community content and find what stuff needs to go upstream to LTSP and structure the rest
<Ahmuck> sbalneav: some of us don't care about becoming deb devs
<sbalneav> But you want to contribute to this, right?
<sbalneav> Ahmuck: Same here
<Ahmuck> my contribution at this point might be small
<sbalneav> I'm not one
<Ahmuck> i've diversified my labor in the last year
<LaserJock> I'm a Debian Maintainer, so that sorta counts ;-)
<sbalneav> Heck, I'm not even a motu
<Ahmuck> i hang in edubuntu/ltsp in the hopes that it will bloom
<LaserJock> ok, but let's take a breath here for a sec
<ace_suares> LJ what we need is for somebody to go through wiki.ubuntu.com and move all user documentation to help.ubuntu.com/community -> okay, that's a clear enough task. Dont' know what it mounts to but if you assure me that's the way and not a krate kid excersise, i am willing to do just that in the coming week.
<Ahmuck> though reading the current docs did help alot.  it also opened up questions
<mhall119> ace_suares: there is a already a technology and process in place, if you think your idea is better, you're gonna have to prove it on your own first
<Ahmuck> mhall119 :)  been there with the local city council.  ur right, that's the way it works
<LaserJock> basically we have quite a few people who would like to contribute something
<ace_suares> mhall119 yeah understood
<LaserJock> but they don't have time to really dig into everything and become and expert
<ace_suares> LS good point
<ace_suares> LJ good point
<LaserJock> that's my understanding of ace_suares' dilemma
<ace_suares> LJ not just me. Did you read the 5th grade teachers story? Amazing. i am sure that's why sbalneav is doing it all!!!
<ace_suares> but he (the teacher) can hardly contribute in a worthwile manner
<ace_suares> we are in a new era with documentation and translation being community too not just coding
<LaserJock> so what we need is some core people who can guide the small contributions along and most importantly provide overall structure
<sbalneav> Well, currently, I'm probably the closest we have to the handbook/docs maintainer
<ace_suares> LJ agree but there is the question on how much time for these core people, wont stuff get stuck when a core person sleeps for a liong time, etc
<LaserJock> the reason the wiki gets out of hand is not that it's a wiki, it's because it's random small contributions without any oversight
<ace_suares> LJ i'd like to postpone the 'editorial model' for a while
<LaserJock> ace_suares: the idea would be to have more than one person
<sbalneav> If we can find a way to go from wiki -> docbook and back, I'm willing to:
<sbalneav> 1) spearhead the process
<sbalneav> 2) maintain the wiki (since I now don't have to maintain docbook docs,but rather just the translation process)
<sbalneav> 3) mentor the new people coming in.
<LaserJock> I don't particularly see the wiki as a end point for docs
<sbalneav> they're not
<sbalneav> they're the raw input
<ace_suares> sbalneav: and run me by why we need to go from wiki -> docbook? I tought proposal was to go from wiki -> html
<LaserJock> well
<LaserJock> but within the user community it seems to me that wiki's are seen as end points for docs
<LaserJock> I think we need both
<sbalneav> well, obviously, the docbook can contain:
<LaserJock> wiki -> docbook for local reading and wiki -> edubuntu.og for majority of use
<ace_suares> LJ I reacted on your 'what needs to be done'. But you didn't react back
<sbalneav> wiki information AND docbook specific info.
<LaserJock> ace_suares: ok, right, yeah, I wanted to get back to that
<LaserJock> getting the user docs off of wiki.ubuntu.com is really important
<LaserJock> but it can be a bit tedious
<sbalneav> ace_suares: Well, if we're going to go wiki -> anything , we might as well go wiki to docbook, since you can already go docbook -> (pdf|html|plaintext
<ace_suares> okay tedious is not nice but it needs be done and is relatively brainless
<sbalneav> |manpage|etc)
<LaserJock> I think there's something over 300 Edubuntu related wiki pages on wiki.ubuntu.com
<LaserJock> I don't know how many are on help.ubuntu.com/community
<ace_suares> sbalneav: but if we cant do wiki-> docbook 9which is uncertain) we can do wiki -> html for the local files yes?
<sbalneav> *iff* we can't.  We haven't tried yet, and my current information indicates that we might be able to.
<ace_suares> LaserJock: I'll study it and report about the estimated time it will take. Also, i was just here for ltsp.. hmmm....
<LaserJock> well
<sbalneav> But yes, if we CAN'T go wiki->docbook, then wiki to html is fine.
<ace_suares> sbalneav: if we can do wiki-> docbook automated, it's a-ok with me.
<LaserJock> ace_suares: I would encourage you to work on what you care about
<LaserJock> wiki -> docbook is doable, but time consuming
<sbalneav> Well, heck, of COURSE it will be automated :)  I'm not going to do it manually :)
<LaserJock> wiki -> HTML -> edubuntu.org is more of a beast to figure out
<ace_suares> LS that would be like encouraging a rock to sit in the rain :-)
<LaserJock> heh
<sbalneav> wiki -> docbook's just an excercise in python scripting :)
<ace_suares> LaserJock: but edubuntu.org is drupal right?
<LaserJock> yes
<LaserJock> I looked into HTML -> drupal importers
<ace_suares> LaserJock: and there is wiki plugins for drupal... ?
<LaserJock> well
<ace_suares> LaserJock: oh thats also a good option.
<LaserJock> I'm not sure we can use those, I don't know
<LaserJock> but you know
<LaserJock> bottom line
<LaserJock> I think it's darn near as easy to just copy-n-paste this stuff
<ace_suares> LaserJock: maybe, maybe not. We'll see
<LaserJock> it's not like we've got a 1000 page book to do over night
<ace_suares> LaserJock: but the users keep updating the wiki and then it can be very hard to do copypaste
<ace_suares> maintanence will be night mare
<LaserJock> no
<ace_suares> but if you can import the wiki via html into drupal
<LaserJock> the point is
<LaserJock> once you send it to docbook or edubuntu.org that's it
<LaserJock> it's done on the wiki
<ace_suares> yeah but what if you want to split a topic
<ace_suares> or change the structure in other ways
<sbalneav> Then you change it on the wiki
<ace_suares> yeha and then ? what do you do on edubuntu.,org?
<LaserJock> I would like to keep the wiki as small individual topic bites
<ace_suares> hmmm
<LaserJock> that we then scrap content from to build "real" docs in docbook/edubuntu.org
<sbalneav> Just because someone puts in a rough page of typing doesn't mean someone like me can't come along, split it up nicely, clean up the structure, etc.
<LaserJock> bottom line though
<LaserJock> we just need people working on it
<LaserJock> they'll figure it out as they go
<ace_suares> LaserJock: sbalneav seems to me you create a closely guarded main docbook/drupal site and a site with random user notes, and that no one but a very few can move it from the wiki to the docbook/drupal which will create backlogs
<Ahmuck> LJ, what link?
<LaserJock> I'm concerned that it seems like we all get bogged down in the planning phase and we never get out
<Ahmuck> finally, action
<sbalneav> Well, I propose we talk about it at the next meeting.  I'll make a post tomorrow to edubuntu-devel outlining how I see it working, we can discuss from there
<Ahmuck> yes, planning and no action is not good
<ace_suares> LaserJock: well i will start looking into moving things (what do you meand bogged down? I spent only 8 hrs to get a daunting and tedious task!)
<sbalneav> Which has been my point all along.
<LaserJock> ace_suares: it's not a lot of a backlog though
<LaserJock> ace_suares: yes, well, I've been trying to get Edubuntu going for a couple years ;-)
<ace_suares> LaserJock: sbalneav, all: i gotta go. Warzone is waiting :-)
<sbalneav> okidoke.
<ace_suares> LaserJock: i understand. i know what's wrong with it tought, I'll discus some other day okay?
<sbalneav> Thanks for stopping by.
<LaserJock> ace_suares: ok, have fun
<ace_suares> It was interesting. Got further then ever :-) got a real task that might improve somehting maybe who knows.
<ace_suares> catch you on one of the lists.
<sbalneav> okay.
<LaserJock> I really think if we had one group of people doing wiki moving and clean up
<LaserJock> and another group taking the wiki docs and converting them into good, permanent docbook/edubuntu.org docs
<LaserJock> that we'd be waaaaay better off
<Ahmuck> docs change so often, is it possible to make "permanent" docs?
<LaserJock> yes
<LaserJock> permanent is not untouchable
<LaserJock> in this case
<LaserJock> but take established docs like what the Ubuntu Doc team has
<LaserJock> the initial docs were mostly created in 2006
<LaserJock> and they've been growing and have been refined
<LaserJock> but it's maintenance more than creation
<LaserJock> when it comes to LTSP there is going to be some version specific stuff
<sbalneav> right, but only by a small priesthood (i.e. me) who understand docbook.
<LaserJock> yeah, but docbook is easy
<sbalneav> Sure
<LaserJock> we just need to get people doing this stuff
<sbalneav> for me and you
 * Ahmuck is unwilling to learn docbook
<Ahmuck> currently.  i'm on empty as it is
<LaserJock> why?
<sbalneav> ace didin't even want to inverst the time into wiki
<LaserJock> right, well
<Ahmuck> i don't mind wiki's
<LaserJock> well, that's fine too
<Ahmuck> seriously, i work from 9 am to 12 pm
<LaserJock> sure, makes sense, we're all pretty busy
<sbalneav> slacker
<Ahmuck> and crash on weekends, and i'm way older than both of you.  my poor self can't keep up
<sbalneav> I worked yesterday from 8am 'till 1 am
<LaserJock> I think the thing to look at is how do we make small contribution effective
<LaserJock> people seem to be getting overwhelmed
<Ahmuck> yes, small contributions i can make
<Ahmuck> graphical, video, text
<LaserJock> bit sized contributions
<sbalneav> thats TWO FREAKING HOURS you could be learning docbook you lazy soandso :)
<Ahmuck> in fact, that's what one of the other guys was talking about
<LaserJock> but it takes have core people who can process the bite-sized contributions
<sbalneav> that's why i'm interested in going wiki -> docbook
<sbalneav> if we can pull that off, it lowers the barrier to contributing by about 50000 feet.
<Ahmuck> actually,  i do testing, ie, using a vm to do setup on a new installation.  i find vm's and screenshots to be usefull, as i can screenshot each step and set it up as a flash tutorial
<LaserJock> I don't even care so much how/where the content is created
<sbalneav> and frees ME up from maintaining docbook, to maintaining the wiki
<LaserJock> I think we need 1) content creators and 2) content integrators/packagers
<LaserJock> currently we have sbalneav
<sbalneav> right
<Ahmuck> i'm comfortable with the wiki, however i've found wikis to be cluttered if no one is looking out for it
<sbalneav> because the barrier's too high
<LaserJock> sbalneav: is it?
<LaserJock> I'm not sure if it's the barrier, I mean the other derives seem to do OK
<Ahmuck> i contribute to a wiki for another oss project, and have found myself lately the sole contributer, and as a reuslt have found myself as the maintiner/cleanup
<sbalneav> C'mon LaserJock, XML's easy for you and me, but reasonably?  We're not going to get a grade 5 teacher doing bzr checkouts of the docs
<Ahmuck> learning docbook would take time out of my day, and i don't have time to give in that way yet.
<LaserJock> sbalneav: maybe, maybe not
<Ahmuck> docbook is xml?
<sbalneav> especially when there's no good docbook editor other than vi
<LaserJock> sbalneav: but that's not even so much the point
<Ahmuck> gedit
<LaserJock> I honestly don't care about the docbook
<sbalneav> but editing a wiki?  That they may do.
<LaserJock> you and I can spend a week at the end of the release doing wiki -> docbook
<sbalneav> I don't either, other than it solves the offline problem
<LaserJock> the problem I see is just pure lack of effort towards contribution
<LaserJock> and a generally poor attitude
<LaserJock> everybody thinks Edubuntu is broken and sucks
<LaserJock> everybody see's the problems but don't do a darn thing to make it better
<sbalneav> Yeah.  And I personally don't like that beard you have.
<LaserJock> I don't care how they contribute
<LaserJock> I just want to see contribution
<Ahmuck> edubuntu is not really broken, but i think people are trying to find definition
<sbalneav> heh
<LaserJock> Ahmuck: but see, that's part of the problem in thinking
<LaserJock> *we* are the definition
<LaserJock> Edubuntu is what the contributing community makes it
<sbalneav> So, soon, I need to get working on the handbook.
<LaserJock> they're wandering around looking for a leader and guide
<sbalneav> here's the 50 dollar question.
<sbalneav> Should I:
<sbalneav> 1) fix up the source docbook
<LaserJock> but it's all just sitting there waiting for them to take the bull by the horns and make something of it
<Ahmuck> LJ, kewl
<sbalneav> 2) turn the existing docs into wiki, see if we can get some people to contribute by the end, and then worst case, you and I do a manual cut-n-paste before release.
<Ahmuck> then i'll see if i can get some peeps around to set edubuntu up as a ubuntu ltsp with cusomizeable app installation and themes to pick from, with pre-installed managment apps
<Ahmuck> ?
<sbalneav> LaserJock: thoughts?
<LaserJock> that would be lovely
<LaserJock> sbalneav: well
<LaserJock> sbalneav: I tend to go with 1) but I'm concerned about scope
<LaserJock> I think it's worthwhile to think about what we want as a deliverable and what we're trying to accomplish
<sbalneav> 1) means, realistically, I'll do it all
<LaserJock> for one there's the LTSP vs non-LTSP thing
<Ahmuck> ur wanting the community to contribute
<sbalneav> 2) means, we *might* just manage to keep some (?) of this momentum going, of getting people involved.
<Ahmuck> nubae had a good start when he did the app breakdown
<Ahmuck> sbalneav: is doing the ltsp side
<LaserJock> ok, well
<LaserJock> I still think we need to address what we're actually wanting to put out there
<Ahmuck> ?
<LaserJock> are we talking an LTSP guide here?
<sbalneav> No.
<sbalneav> I have an ltsp guide
<Ahmuck> i'd say just do it
<sbalneav> I'm talking the edubuntu handbook
<LaserJock> ok, and so what does an edubuntu handbook look like?
<sbalneav> i.e. it just points to the ltsp info
<sbalneav> Well, pretty thin without the ltsp bits. :)
<Ahmuck> ah ha
<sbalneav> But that's easy to fix, I'll just *write* stuff
<Ahmuck> edubuntu is just ubuntu with aptitude installing the edu stuff and a theme
<sbalneav> and if it's on a wiki, maybe others might too, before release.
<LaserJock> Ahmuck: let's go with "was" instead of "is"
<LaserJock> well, Michelle_Qimo1 is working on writing up some individual edu app guides
<LaserJock> so let's see
<Ahmuck> in what format?
<sbalneav> .....whoooo?
<LaserJock> wiki
<Ahmuck> sbalneav: #qimo
<sbalneav> I love her already.
<sbalneav> She's hired.
<LaserJock> heh
<LaserJock> so here's how I'd generally see things going
<sbalneav> That a channel, or a nick?
<LaserJock> 1) Edubuntu-specific documentation (what is it, installing stuff, etc.)
<LaserJock> 2) guide to using Education apps (specifically, how to use them in education)
<LaserJock> 3) classroom management
<LaserJock> I think those would be the broad categories of things
<sbalneav> I'm in complete agreement.
<LaserJock> so if we can organize the wiki around those
<LaserJock> and try to be a bit more task/topic oriented
<LaserJock> instead of big huge procedural stuff
<LaserJock> I think we can then pull that into docbook fairly well
<sbalneav> ok, and as an initial population, we can pull stuff out of the existing handbook to flesh out the initial wiki pages.
<LaserJock> perhaps we should only focus on the wiki portion for karmic
<LaserJock> and worry about moin -> docbook for the LTS release
<sbalneav> Sure.  I'd be fine with that.
<LaserJock> since we don't really have much right now it's not a lot of cost
<LaserJock> so if you turned into the wiki master for now
 * sbalneav salutes
<LaserJock> and then perhaps you'd get some people interested in docbook by the time the moin -> docbook part comes
<sbalneav> Wiki master sargeant sbalneav reporting for duty
<sbalneav> Sounds like a plan.
<LaserJock> so we need wiki cleanup
<LaserJock> separation of wikis
<sbalneav> So, the only thing I'd like to see is the handbook.edubuntu.org, which would be ideal.  But if not, we can figure it out on the existing one.
<LaserJock> and then I think we need to consider the structure of help.ubuntu.com/community when it comes to Edubuntu and LTSP
<LaserJock> sbalneav:  I think maybe we can work something out
<LaserJock> sbalneav: I think it would be of great value to our users to have a space like that
<sbalneav> Beer bribes?
<LaserJock> sbalneav: I'm not sure that i'm sold on "handbook" though
 * sbalneav shrugs
<LaserJock> I think perhaps more of a "knowledgebase" type thing
<sbalneav> a rose by any other name would smell as sweet
<LaserJock> the issue i have with handbooks is the rigidity
<LaserJock> Edubuntu can be used in so many different environments for so many different tasks
<LaserJock> it might be of more use to get the user the closest to what they want as quickly as possible
<LaserJock> *on the other hand*
<sbalneav> We could call it LaserJockandsbalneavsexcellentdocadventure.edubuntu.org for all I care.  Just so long as it's a nice separation from the wildwollywiki :)
<LaserJock> a lot of times teachers want to have a simple guide they can run through and get up to speed
<LaserJock> I agree
<Ahmuck> how do we link up tutorials?
<LaserJock> either we don't or we can have a portal page
<LaserJock> I honestly don't think we'll have all that much documentation
<sbalneav> yeah.
<sbalneav> Oh, don't say that.
<LaserJock> well
<sbalneav> Heck if I can drag something like LTSP out for 84 pages...
<LaserJock> we won't *need* that much documentation
<Ahmuck> what is edubuntu?
<LaserJock> ugg
<LaserJock> LTSP is complicated
<Ahmuck> i'm still trying to answer that question.
<LaserJock> Ahmuck: what do you want it to be?
<LaserJock> :-)
<Ahmuck> ltsp is comlicated, but not the only solution for classrooms
<sbalneav> Ahmuck: Edubuntu is *you*
<sbalneav> Edubuntu is Ed*you*bunto
<Ahmuck> edubuntu to me is a mix of gpl and commercial apps on a network platform installed from a cd with classroom managment utilities
<sbalneav> I made a funny
<Ahmuck> sbalneav: actually, that's not a bad ide
<Ahmuck> Ed*you*buntu
<Ahmuck> er, Edu*you*buntu
<LaserJock> yeah, somebody write that down for the marketing team ;-)
<LaserJock> Ahmuck: ok, well your idea of Edubuntu is not far from what most of us think of it
<sbalneav> If I'm going into marketing, I want the corner office, a ferrari, and a 3 martini lunch
<Ahmuck> what i can't figure out is how come we never get there?
 * Ahmuck is into marketing
<sbalneav> Ahmuck: because
<sbalneav> (here I go again)
<sbalneav> WE NEED MORE WORKER BEES
<LaserJock> well, I think it's that little thing called action
<Ahmuck> worker bees because of code?
<sbalneav> packaging, code, documentation, testing, you freakin' name it.
<Ahmuck> i think the community (wiki) documentation might solve the identity thing
<Ahmuck> i would in fact be willing to work on a type of wiki documentation, setting up a structure/outline
<sbalneav> evening alkisg
<alkisg> Morning all :)
<Ahmuck> ltsp in one area, ldap/nfs in another
<sbalneav> Ahmuck: You're hired.
<LaserJock> alkisg: is it really morning there?
<alkisg> ldap/nfs is one area that documentation is needed :)
<sbalneav> alkisg: I ended up talking wikiwikiwoo all night, didn't end up digging into the sabayon thing :(
<Ahmuck> point me to a link.  btw, reading the ltsp docs answered some questions for me
<alkisg> LaserJock: 7:20
<sbalneav> alkisg's in Greece.
<LaserJock> sbalneav: and I need to finish off this dissertation so I can print it out tonight
<Ahmuck> LJ ! get to it
<sbalneav> Well, get freaking out of here
<LaserJock> I got on to ask bryce an inkscape question and now it's almost 1.5 hr later :-)
<LaserJock> see how much I love Edubuntu? ;-)
<alkisg> Heh.... go LaserJock go :)
<sbalneav> Fine line between love and addiction.  I crossed it long ago, so that's why I'm still heere after all these years.
<LaserJock> I swear, if Canonical could only have given me 6 months of full-time work on Edubuntu all our problems would be solved :-)
<Ahmuck> essentially, were building a doc for educators to use linux in a school environment
<LaserJock> not only that
<LaserJock> but a majority yeah
<Ahmuck> what was the nice of svenst?
<Ahmuck> nice/nick
<alkisg> svenstaro, I think
<Ahmuck> ttfn, nn i need to be
<ace_suares> hi all, website updates
<ace_suares> !seen LaserJock
<ubottu> I have no seen command
<ace_suares> anyone here to help me gauge the website and its structure?
<ace_suares> sbalneav: dont want to distract you from real work :-)
<ace_suares> hm https://wiki.edubuntu.org/Edubuntu/Community?action=show&mimetype=text/docbook
<sbalneav> Morning all
<ace_suares> hi scotty!!!
<mhall119|work> morning
<sbalneav> Morning
<LaserJock> ace_suares: around?
<ogra> ace_suares, wiki.ubuntu.com, wiki.edubuntu.org and wiki.kubuntu.com are absolutely the same wiki
<LaserJock> that's what I was going to say
<ogra> hey LaserJock you just read mail, did you ? :)
<LaserJock> ogra: dude, I finished  my dissertation last night
 * ogra humps LaserJock's leg
<LaserJock> ewwww
<ogra> :)
<ogra> awesome !!!!
<LaserJock> I was up 'til 4:30am
<LaserJock> took me 4 hrs to print 3 copies
<ogra> phew
<LaserJock> stupid crappy Color LaserJet printer
<LaserJock> prints like 1 page a minute ;-)
<ogra> heh
<ogra> silly that you cant just hand in a USB key with a pdf nowadays
<LaserJock> well, it's not as easy, IMO, to read 100+ pages on a computer screen
<LaserJock> I should have a kindle version :-)
<ogra> yeah, was about to say that
<LaserJock> 1 of my committee members did say it was OK to send him a pdf
<sbalneav> ogra: he's doing a disertation at a university.  I used to work at one.  I'm surprised they let him hand in colour.  Too "modern".  Quill and ink is better :)
<LaserJock> yeah
<ogra> lol
<LaserJock> I think most all the other dissertations in my lab are black-n-white
<LaserJock> mine is going to be so flashy
<LaserJock> :-)
 * sbalneav looks forward to pictures of LaserJock in his phd gown.
<LaserJock> oh, I have some
<LaserJock> I did the whole ceremony thing in May :-)
<sbalneav> Pics or it didn't happen :)
<LaserJock> if you graduate in the summer you get to pick May or December to walk
<LaserJock> I don't think I have them on my laptop at the moment
<LaserJock> I'll probably blog something when the defense is done and it's all official
<sbalneav> LaserJock: You saw my summary mail in -devel?
<sbalneav> I hope I captured the essence of last night.
<LaserJock> the wiki -> docbook one?
<sbalneav> yeah
<LaserJock> I haven't read it yet, I just got to ace_suares' email
<LaserJock> sbalneav: do we really need a separate wiki instance for this?
<LaserJock> could we use wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/Handbook ?
<LaserJock> I'm somewhat hesitant to use a subdomain for a work-in-progress thing
<LaserJock> the Doc team ran into problems with that
<LaserJock> help.ubuntu.com was the stable docs and doc.ubuntu.com was the work-in-progress
<LaserJock> after a while google et. al just pointed to doc.ubuntu.com  and when the WIP docs were removed everything broke
<LaserJock> I was hoping we could use handbook.edubuntu.org for the "stable" version of the handbook
<sbalneav> LaserJock: Sounds fine to me
<sbalneav> all I'm looking for is some kind of 'separation' from the topic based.
<sbalneav> so we can say 'handbook here, topics here'
<LaserJock> well, topics should be on help.ubuntu.com/community
<LaserJock> so maybe that's enough separation
<sbalneav> Sounds fine.
<LaserJock> we need to make it clear that wiki.ubuntu.com is for development
<LaserJock> including doc development
<sbalneav> How do we create /handbook
<LaserJock> on wiki.ubuntu.com?
<sbalneav> just start posting to that url, or does other magic need to happen? (i.e. mkdir)
<LaserJock> so I would have wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/HandBook be a meta-page that lists all the subpages
<LaserJock> and create a EdubuntuHandbook category
<LaserJock> and then just structure off of /Edubuntu/HandBook/<chapter/section>
<sbalneav> I'm lovin' it.
 * sbalneav hugs LaserJock 
<LaserJock> dude, I left the lab at 4:30
<sbalneav> So, we can, quite literally, get going on this almost immediately
<LaserJock> got up at 8:00
<LaserJock> I already handed out 3 copies this morning, 2 more to go
<sbalneav> off you go.
<LaserJock> well, I gotta wait on those
<sbalneav> We have to discuss this at a meeting anyway.
<LaserJock> until the prof meanders in to school
<ogra> sbalneav, https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-users/2009-July/191990.html do you recongnize these errors ?
<sbalneav> But what it means is, we don't have to bug CIS for anything, we can just do it within the structure of what we've laready got
<LaserJock> as long as we do a little forward-thinking I think it's nice to get going with something that's ready to be used now rather than waiting until the perfect solution
<sbalneav> ogra: Wow, x-session-manager actually looks like it cored
<ogra> sbalneav, yep
<sbalneav> icky-poo
<ogra> sbalneav, but after sabayon did fall over it seems
<sbalneav> well, that sabayon error's misleading.  It just means that sabayon-apply couldn't find a profile for him.
<sbalneav> The error messages for sabayon are... misleading
<ogra> heh, ok
<sbalneav> It did actully exit normally:
<sbalneav> sys.exit (util.EXIT_CODE_NORMAL)
<ogra> well, he switched to an nfs mounted homedir
<ogra> not sure that has any impact
<sbalneav> One of the issues is, depending on how he moved things across, I think gnome stores SOME information in sparse files
<ogra> yeah
<sbalneav> which, depending on how they were copied to the nfs server, might result in breakage
<sbalneav> the standard way to handle this is mv .gnome2 .gnome2.old ; mv .gconfd .gconfd.old ; etc.
<sbalneav> sucky, but...
<sbalneav> It seems more and more people are storing conf information in things like sqlite3 files, which is all "enterprisey" I suppose, but you loose the ability to just "look at the file with VI"
<ogra> yeah, he apparently rsynced
<sbalneav> Linux seems to be careening towards "HEY GUYZ LETS RE-IMPLEMENT THE WINDOWZ REGISTRY LOLZ! NOTHING WORKS ANY MORE!!!111one" school of thought.
<ogra> you can look at them with an sqlite client though :)
<sbalneav> Oh, sure.
<sbalneav> So long as the file's not corrupted some how.
<sbalneav> And now to fix something up, I have to know sql :)
<sbalneav> "update myconfig set homedir = '/home/newhome' where uid = sbalneav;'
<ogra> but but ...
<sbalneav> yay progress
<ogra> EVERYONE knows SQL !
<ogra> :)
<sbalneav> OF COURSE!
<sbalneav> \o/
<ogra> we live in a time where oracle ships complete systems
<ogra> you wont be able to log in to solaris without the right sql phrase
<sbalneav> I look forward to the day where in order to update my gecos info, I have to do an outer join between 3 tables.
<ogra> well, thast the day where vagrant can revive sdm :)
<ogra> sql display manager
<sbalneav> LOLOLOL
 * ogra never got why *login managers* are called *display managers* though
<sbalneav> 'insert into current_users values ('sbalneav', 'password');
<ogra> display manager just steals credits from the xserver
<sbalneav> select * from sessions where session = 'gnome'
<sbalneav> right.
<ogra> yay :)
<LaserJock> does the DM start up X?
<LaserJock> seems like it does
<sbalneav> You've heard of Web 2.0?  This'll be "command line 2.0: revenge of the SQL nerds
<ogra> haha
<LaserJock> eww
<sbalneav> "They're back, pissed off, and NOT ACCEPTING FOREIGN KEYS!"
<LaserJock> I'm not very fond of SQL stuff
<ogra> LaserJock, right, it calls xinit
<LaserJock> mostly because I've never learned SQL
<LaserJock> but it seems like any of the cool jobs at Canonical required SQL knowledge
<sbalneav> meh
<sbalneav> lunch
<sbalneav> bbiab
<ace_suares> hi back from the university trying to sell open office courses :-)
<LaserJock> ace_suares: so is the wiki.edubuntu.org/wiki.ubuntu.com thing clear now?
<ace_suares> ogra: ace_suares, wiki.ubuntu.com, wiki.edubuntu.org and wiki.kubuntu.com are absolutely the same wiki
<ace_suares> but they look absolutely different, on my PC.
<LaserJock> yep
<LaserJock> same content
<LaserJock> different skin
<ace_suares> ah i see that now
<ace_suares> different url in some cases
<ace_suares> in other cases not
<ace_suares> but i get that too.
<LaserJock> you can use the same URL, but there might be redirects
<LaserJock> ace_suares: also, it's not a matter of just moving *everything* from wiki.ubuntu.com to help.ubuntu.com/community
<LaserJock> ace_suares: we need to just move user documentation
<ace_suares> so why is in the edubuntu team at https://wiki.edubuntu.org/Teams there are no 'leader' 'reporter' etc
<ace_suares> LaserJock: i understand that i am just looking around and getting familiar wit it
<LaserJock> ace_suares: well, because there is no leader/reporter, etc. and nobody has bothered to fill in the blanks?
<LaserJock> ace_suares: we do need to clean up the pages that aren't user documentation, but that's maybe a secondary task
<ace_suares> LaserJock: oh..... kay
<ace_suares> that clears up a lot of things! he he
<LaserJock> that's good ... I think
<ace_suares> btw cpngratulations with finishing your disserttation!
<LaserJock> thanks
<ogra> https://wiki.edubuntu.org/Edubuntu is the actual edubuntu related namespace on the wiki btw
<LaserJock> right
<LaserJock> something needs to be done with all the /Education stuff
<ogra> looking at https://wiki.edubuntu.org/Edubuntu/GetHelp#Quick
<ogra> it properly forwards to UbuntuLTSP
<ogra> heh, https://wiki.edubuntu.org/Edubuntu/Community/Communication is a bit lame :)
<LaserJock> yeah
<LaserJock> there is some seriously over-engineered stuff in there
<ogra> oh, yeah the Education/ stuff is a mess
<LaserJock> I don't know how much of it needs to be kept for Canonical either
<ogra> thats all richards marketing plans
<LaserJock> perhaps we should email his boss or something?
<ogra> and classmate specs
<LaserJock> there are a ridiculous amount of wiki pages in the Edubuntu and Education namespaces
<ogra> i doubt chris can do much about it
<ogra> or demote time to wiki cleanup
<LaserJock> I just wonder if that stuff is needed or not
<LaserJock> I don't want to delete a bunch of pages he may need
<LaserJock> but I'd like to do some cleanup
<ogra> well, then mail him
<LaserJock> that's kenyon, right?
<ogra> yep
<ogra> https://wiki.edubuntu.org/SpecPasswordNoEchoEducation *big grin*
<LaserJock> heh
<ogra> https://wiki.edubuntu.org/flosscom/HowIsFLOSSLearningDifferentFromNormalEducation oh man, so much about wiki links
<LaserJock> lol
 * ogra guesses thats from the author of https://wiki.edubuntu.org/flosscom/CouldFLOSSLearningBePutIntoPracticeInFormalEducation
<ogra> which is full of exciting content
 * LaserJock is falling asleep listening to dissertation pages printing
 * ogra is falling asleep after fighting with ARM code for 14h
<ogra> and i guess thats why i call it a day now ...
<ace_suares> LaserJock: ogra so where is the LIST of all the pages in the Edubuntu namespace?
<LaserJock> ace_suares: you just do a search for Edubuntu in the search box
<ace_suares> but then you wont find the pages like thinclientnathowto!
<ogra> thats totally unrealted to edubuntu
<ace_suares> pgra omg
<ace_suares> ogra: omg!
<LaserJock> you'd want to do searches for LTSP and ThinClient in that case
<ogra> right
<ace_suares> so.... to fix up the thinclinet and ltsp docs - my starting quest - i am totally in the wrong group here?
<ogra> well ... the ubuntu ltsp people gather here
<ace_suares> i mean i should talk with ubuntu-devel and ubuntu website and so on?
<ogra> but the starting poitn pointed to from everywhere is https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP
<ace_suares> can you imagine i rather post on my own site :-(
<LaserJock> ace_suares: it really doesn't matter
<ace_suares> yeah ogra, but that dont get you to thinclientnathowto, and that one is on the wiki not on help
<LaserJock> you can talk to us, that's fine
<ace_suares> i tought we agrteed to move everything from the wiki to help ?
<ogra> thats what the ltsp wiki liks to, the ltspbot in the IRC channel points to and what people like Lns put a lot of work into maintining constantly
<ace_suares> teh user docs at least?
<LaserJock> ace_suares: correct
<ogra> ace_suares, thats one link that was fixed some das ago
<ogra> *days
<LaserJock> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP is the portal to all the LTSP user docs
<ace_suares> so how do i find a hierachicla list of ALL pages in the wiki ?
<ogra> actually some hours before your mail even
<LaserJock> ace_suares: you have to do a title search, as we said previously
<ace_suares> LaserJock: but then i will only find docs with certain titles...
<ace_suares> paginated at that...
<ace_suares> not very nice to do some scripting on
<LaserJock> you can also do a category search but there's no guarantee that they're all in there
<LaserJock> well, there's no scripting involved
<ace_suares> categorycleanup is empty for instance which is weird
<ogra> i bet it isnt
<ogra> it will likely just take a day to assemble all the links from thousands of wikipages
<LaserJock> if there are too many pages in a category doesn't it just not show any?
<ogra> or time out before
<ogra> right
<ace_suares> ogra well thats bad isnt it
<LaserJock> so you can search for "categorycleanup edubuntu" for instance and probably get some pages
<ace_suares> there! Ony 2 days after scott told me 'why don't you post in on the ltsp portal' i have now finally made a link from ubuntultsp to that page about proxy redir! Awesome.
<ace_suares> LaserJock: so actually the thincleinthowtonat and the thinclientproxyredirect should be moved from the wiki. to the help. ?
<ace_suares> thats what we want to do right?
<ogra> "Alternative way to do the above."
<ogra> thats a heavy assumption ...
<ace_suares> LaserJock: a search like you suggested yileds only three results, the proxy redirect page is not among them :-(
<ogra> its a wiki, how do you know nobody puts a link between the two ?
<ace_suares> ogra okay there i am a dumb newbie and i did something foolish, what is going to happen now ?
<ogra> nothing, just find a better description :)
<ace_suares> ogra just for discussion purposes, shouldt YOU find a better description? :-)
<ace_suares> the whole concept is that is something wrong, the person who finds it wrong should get involved, and not moan about it and so on... of course i dont want you to do it and i am glad you put my attention there so i cna fix it
<ogra> no, because i already worked 14.5h and dont feel like staying on the computer much longer ... just take it as a constructive comment
<ace_suares> but if i go to a page and say hey this is wrong i always get the answer : then fix it
<ace_suares> there is somehting wrong with that credo i believe
<sbalneav> Who's responsibility should it be to fix it, then?
<ace_suares> ogra of course i do take it as a constructive commnet but why are my commments or that of many orther not taken as constructive?
<ogra> right, i wont fix it, and its not wrong unless someone adds another link belopw the nat howto
<ace_suares> sbalneav: good question
<ogra> i just pointed out a possible flaw to you
<ace_suares> ogra i will fix it becuas it was my overishgt
<sbalneav> considering that *EVERY SINGLE PERSON* involved with edubutu is a volunteer :)
<sbalneav> Answer: if you find a mistake, and you feel it needs to be corrected, it is, de-facto, *your* responsibility to fix it.
<sbalneav> LTSP didn't have local dev support.
<sbalneav> I wanted it.
<sbalneav> I implemented it. :)
<ace_suares> ogra and thanks to bring it to my attention
<ace_suares> i am just saying
<ace_suares> small things should be fixed by someone on the team
<ace_suares> or else there is endless recursion happening
<ace_suares> sbalneav: on your question: i guess you normally would say: the one who sees the problem
<ace_suares> sbalneav: or maybe 'everyone' would be a good answer too
<ogra> sbalneav, oh, btw, there are many files in ltspfs i wrote that dont have any copyright notice with my name ... somehow got lost when you did the autofoo stuff
<sbalneav> Add away.
<ogra> (ltspfsmounter and many of the other py scripts)
<ace_suares> sbalneav: i dont know but the fact is that contributors make this kind of mistakes
<sbalneav> right
<ogra> sbalneav, will do one day, not now, i'm really tired and wanted to be gone 30min ago
<sbalneav> So go :)
<ogra> can't ... :) i'm reading here
<sbalneav> May waves of angels carry thee to thy sleep :)
<ogra> even though i'm not involved with any of that stuff anymore its to exciting to see whats going on :)
<ace_suares> i got a whole afternoon ahead of me and still no clue how to clean up the wiki
<ace_suares> can not find all pages listed that need moving
<sbalneav> I'm sure you'll sort it out.
<ace_suares> there changed! thx ogra.
<ogra> thanks :)
<ace_suares> sbalneav: very encouraging scorry
<ace_suares> scotty
<ace_suares> what if i dont find it out
<ace_suares> will you have lost someone who wants to contribute?
<ace_suares> but its' allright
<ace_suares> sleep is important too
<ace_suares> I got other stuff to do too
<ace_suares> and will sit and wait until something comes up again :-)
<ogra> btw, a search for the UbuntuLTSP namespace returns 8 pages with awesome ltsp documentation
<ogra> https://help.ubuntu.com/search.html?cof=FORID%3A9&cx=003883529982892832976%3Ae2vwumte3fq&ie=UTF-8&q=UbuntuLTSP&sa=Search
<ace_suares> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ThinClientHowto
<ace_suares> so why is that one not under UbuntuLTSP ? Should it be?
<ogra> no
<ogra> read the note at the top
<ogra> we should ahve a "historic documents" category :)
<ace_suares> okay i hadn't opened the doc.
<ace_suares> ogra seriously?
<ace_suares> becuase i will make one right away
<ace_suares> so let me rephrase
<ogra> well, its the very first thing every written about the ubuntu ltsp5 implementation
<ogra> *ever
<ace_suares> if ThinClientHowTo was not outdated, then shoul dit go under UbuntuLTSP ?
<ace_suares> as in /UbuntuLTSP/ThinClient/ThinClientHowTo ?
<ogra> if a doc refers to LTSP in ubuntu and doesnt tell rubbish it should go under UbuntuLTSP
<ogra> this doc though refers to ubuntu breezy ... but has a lot of intresting background info about thin client networking
<ace_suares> okay so in my quest to move stuff from wiki to help, i need to move ThinClientNATHowTo and ThinClientRedirectProxy to /UbuntuLTSP ?
<ace_suares> at least then I would have a job to do :-)
<ogra> right, thats proper
<ace_suares> pfew
<ace_suares> i;ve had job description handed out to me quikcer and clearer :-)
<ogra> its simply that nobody needed the nat howto until we had localapps
<ogra> so nobody actually bothered to move it
<ace_suares> ogra but the good thing is that since we have localapps, someone added a relevant doc!
<ogra> just make sure to create all the proper redirects
<ace_suares> you mean redirects from the 'old pages' ?
<ogra> so people linking to the old page dont get lost
<ace_suares> didnt know i had to do that
<ogra> sure
<ace_suares> the job description was 'move all user docs from wiki to help'
<ace_suares> no further specifiactions ...
<ogra> well, there might be blogposts or whatnot that link there
<ogra> or wvwn other wikipages
<ogra> *even
<ace_suares> ogra yeah i understand so there's a new point to the job description then, make redirects.
<ogra> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RestrictedDrivers
<ace_suares> I think of just inserting a line 'this page is now outdated and hoste don help so look there
<ogra> thats been one of the most linked pages in ubuntu land long before help.u.c existed for example
<ogra> there is a process how to properly get stuff moved
<ogra> i think the docteam knows more, i never did that myself
<ogra> but that process automatically leaves redirects in place
<ace_suares> oh man....
<ogra> anyway, really off now ... i have my first conference calls at 6am tomorrow
<ace_suares> yeah ogra sweet dreams
<ace_suares> bye and thx
<ogra> ciao ciao
<ace_suares> gotta go now anyway
<Ahmuck> sbalneav: link to wiki?
#edubuntu 2009-07-24
<ace_suares> hi there
<ace_suares> I fixed the categorycleanup page (grin)
<ace_suares> the wiki is terribly slow again
<sbalneav> Probably lots of people using it.
<ace_suares> sbalneav: hi scotty
<sbalneav> Evening
<ace_suares> ?action=titleindex gives you all titles of all pages.
<ace_suares> on the wiki
<ace_suares> there's about 185 that start with edu
<sbalneav> wiki.edubuntu.org?
<ace_suares> ehhh wiki.ubuntu.com i think, but it's the same
<ace_suares> https://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuWiring?action=raw
<ace_suares> that page uses a refresh and not the moinmoin way of redirecting, like this one dies
<ace_suares> dies=does
<ace_suares> https://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuWiki
<sbalneav> I'm working on writing the perl script to do the initial conversion from docbook -> wiki
<ace_suares> great!
<ace_suares> so there was nothing availble for conversion?
<ace_suares> too bad
<ace_suares> i fixed https://wiki.edubuntu.org/CategoryCleanup, it now shows a list of pages. it was easy.
<sbalneav> There was, but it's horribly broken.  So, I'm fixing it.
<ace_suares> nice
<ace_suares> in that list there is none for edubuntu i think
<ace_suares> https://wiki.edubuntu.org/DocumentationTeam/Ideas/MoinToDocIdeas
<ace_suares> https://wiki.edubuntu.org/HelpOnXmlPages#Rendering DocBook
<sbalneav> ace_suares: pages look nice.  Good job!
<Ahmuck> sbalneav: link?
 * Ahmuck gets big sticker out
<Ahmuck> sharpens ends of stick and prods sbalneav
<Ahmuck> LINK !
<sbalneav> BAH
 * sbalneav rubs *ss
<sbalneav> Sorry, was in #ltsp
<ace_suares> hi there
<sbalneav> ace posted them earlier :)
<sbalneav> Seems I've pissed off r. Scott Belford :)
<ace_suares> heheh
<Ahmuck> link to wiki?
<ace_suares> probably not the first time :-)
<sbalneav> I've apologied on the list for my passion, and sent him a personal note too.
<sbalneav> ace_suares: I pissed you off the other day.  Look how that turned out :) We have a new wiki maintainer :)
<ace_suares> good enough :-) you seem nice rnowadays :-)
<ace_suares> sorry nicer nowadays :-)
<sbalneav> I'm *ALWAYS* nice.
<Ahmuck> ace_suares: link to wiki
<sbalneav> But I'm also passionate, and not afraid to speak my mind.
 * ace_suares nows in awe for the lightning ray of niceness
<ace_suares> oh Ahmuck
<ace_suares> sorry
<ace_suares> eh
<ace_suares> https://wiki.edubuntu.org/CategoryEdubuntu/
<sbalneav> My attitude is: if I don't tell you what I think, how you gonna know?
<ace_suares> https://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuCleanupEffort
<ace_suares> but the wiki is very very slow
<ace_suares> very
<sbalneav> Besides, look at it this way.  I respect all of you enough to be honest with you all.
<ace_suares> hey sbalneav I am back and found a way to cope, let's stop talking about personal attitude, I am not the most tactful person either.
<ace_suares> I am glad we are getting some work done now :-)
<ace_suares> Ahmuck:  can you get the https://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuCleanupEffort page to open? Scotty ?
<sbalneav> Far as I'm concerned, I succeeded.  I complained, I got us one new contributer.  Mission Accomplished :)
<sbalneav> No, slow here too.
<sbalneav> Maybe canonical's doing some cleanup?
<sbalneav> ...hey wait, are you saying I'M NOT TACTFUL?!?!?!?!?  :D
<sbalneav> hehehe
<ace_suares> sbalneav: yes that you did!
<ace_suares> i mean succeed. It might be a side effect though.
<ace_suares> I think its all the searches in that page.
<sbalneav> dunno.  Didn't see the page source.
<ace_suares> sbalneav: i did and i tell you :-)
<ace_suares> lots of searches like fullsearch(CategoryEdubuntuProposedForRemoval)
<ace_suares> Cant' really work this way, going to sleep. I did categorize all 50 or so topics on CategoryEdubuntu
<ace_suares> Will wathc the effects tomorrow
<ace_suares> Sleep now
<ace_suares> bye all
<ace_suares> by scot
<sbalneav> vagrantc: It would be interesting to try doing a "sysctl ... vm.overcommit_memory = 1"  somewhere before pulse starts up
<sbalneav> ah
<sbalneav> Hm, looks like there IS a debian-edu irc channel.
<sbalneav> exiting to update my irssi config...
<nubae> sbalneav, ping
 * ogra sighs about ace_suares
<sbalneav> nubae: pong
<Ahmuck> *yawn*
<Ahmuck> good morning
<sbalneav> Morning Ahmuck
<mhall119> morning
<ace_suares> hi all
<ogra> ace_suares, you seem to just have done a fulltext search for "edubuntu", https://wiki.edubuntu.org/wiki/MergerPlan definately is an official QA spec describing the categorization implementation on the wiki and the merge into a single wiki instance, please take it off the list
<ogra> ace_suares, the same goes for https://wiki.edubuntu.org/UbuntuDownUnder/BOFs/EdubuntuBOF its is an implemented spec and needs to stay as documentation for the implementation that was done
<ogra> specs are the documentation of ubuntus development process, if there are obsolete ones, mark them as such in launchpad but dont delete them from the wiki, feel free to move them to another namespace if thats better in your view but dont forget to update all the links from LP
<ogra> (that last sentece only goes for *edubuntu* specifc specs indeed)
<Lns> http://www.opensourceforamerica.org/ - something for people in the US to check out for advocacy of open source in America - this means schools!
 * Lns just became a member
<ace_suares> Hi Lns!
<Lns> hey ace_suares !
<Lns> hey man, thanks so much for the work you're doing on the wiki, that is fantastic
<ace_suares> ogra re wike mergerplan should there then be a spec in launchpad????
<ogra> ace_suares, so the point is, the blueprint system of launchpad is deliberately designed in a way that you cant delete specs from it
<ace_suares> Lns thats why I am doing it - to get praise - thansk !!! :_))))))
<ogra> ace_suares, that *is* the spec
<ace_suares> ogra how is it that some specs are in launchpad and some are not???
<ogra> its just been written earlier than the CategorySpec entry exists
<ace_suares> ogra I dont mean category spec i mean ,most specs I found are on launcpad too
<ace_suares> this one not? is that okay?
<ogra> yes, it was likely created at a time where the spec system on LP wasnt widely used
<ace_suares> i changed to EdubuntuSpec and Spec categories.
<ogra> be very careful with the specs before 2006, i think there we started to use LP
<ogra> its deliberate that you cant delete then from LP
<ace_suares> ogra should we create launchpad specs for those then or just leave it this way?
<ogra> since a spec either defines something thats missing or documents something that was developed at some point
<ogra> just leave them alone
<ace_suares> ogra wel at least add EdubuntuSpec and Spec categories, yes?
<ogra> well, there are no actual EdubuntuSpec's
<ogra> Edubuntu specs are supposed to be ubuntu specs
<ace_suares> okay then just CategorySpec then and leave it at that ?
<ogra> but that was only defined after the first time the spec system was actually used
 * ace_suares sighs
<ogra> which is the reason that you see EdubuntuSpec on some
<ace_suares> EdubuntuSpec, i made that ogra
<ace_suares> it wasnt there before
<ogra> there is a namespace in the wiki
<ogra> i dont mean the tag
<ace_suares> you lsot me
<ace_suares> lost
<ogra> wiki...blah/EdubuntuSpecBlupp
<ogra> namespace in the url ;)
<ace_suares> huh?
<ogra> at some point we prefixed all our specs with EdubuntuSpec
<ogra> in the url
<ace_suares> when i do a full search on edubuntuspec i dont' see any of those with that in the url!
<ogra> they were probably renamed by the docteam
<ace_suares> ogra so what do i need to do or change then ???
<ogra> docteam did several runs of major cleanup
<ogra> looking at https://wiki.edubuntu.org/CategoryEdubuntuSpec ...
<ogra> wiki/MergerPlan needs to go
<ace_suares> I made that ogra
<ace_suares> okay
<ace_suares> just make it CategorySpec then ?
<ogra> UbuntuDownUnder/BOFs/EdubuntuBOF as well ..
<ogra> (from that list that is)
<ace_suares> yeah those two I will change now
<ogra> for the others check against LP
<ace_suares> there is one not in LP the others are.
<ogra> if there is really no entry on LP feel free to delete them
<ogra> which one ?
<ace_suares> i just as well leave that one there.
<ogra> ah, i think you said DedicatedLTSPSSH
<ace_suares> yes
<ace_suares> that one
 * ogra remembers, that was submitted by someone not attending a UDS 
<ogra> and that at a time where remote participation wasnt possible yet
<ace_suares> just leave it there.
<ogra> yeah, generally i wouldnt touch specs at all
<ogra> ots a hilarious amount of work to make sur eto not break the backlinks
<ace_suares> no it isnt becasue i am not moving them anywhere i stated that already
<ace_suares> I just wanted to know
<ogra> you could go over the ones with Edubuntu in the name and rename them .. but update the LP entries accordingly
<ogra> to clean up the Edubuntu namespace on the wiki
<ace_suares> 1. what to do with old specs that never got approved (see http://edubuntu.opcuracao.info/)
<ogra> nothing
<ace_suares> 2. what to do with the ones that are not in LP
<ace_suares> you answered both questions then :-)
<ogra> right
<ogra> though i agree that cleaning up the namespace would make sense
<ogra> so if you search for pages with Edubuntu in the title you actually find recent stuff
<ace_suares> So, all specs specific to Edubutu are now in CategoryEdubuntuSpec and if they where in CategorySpec they are there too,
<ace_suares> ogra i dont want to spend time to rename the spec pages unless its absolutely needed
<ace_suares> because of the extra work in the backlinks
<ogra> right, understood
<ogra> btw, do you know about launchpadlib ? :)
<ace_suares> you cna also do a seach on edubuntu and do a -CategoryEdubuntuSpec which leaves them out...
<ace_suares> what is launchpadlib?
<ogra> it has interfaces in differern languages to achieve waht you did with your script ...
<ogra> not sure there is a launchpadlib-ruby though i never used ruby
<ace_suares> ogra let the developers mull over that then :-) it would be really good if UbuntuSpec in moin moin would be enhanced
<ogra> write a spec ;)
<ace_suares> ogra even more complications... yahooo!
<ogra> and get some votes on brainstorm.ubuntu.com
<ogra> so it gets attention
<ace_suares> ha ha brainstorm
<ogra> dont know it ?
<ace_suares> i got seven votes for a 'recently changed' entry in 'places'
<ace_suares> man windows even has that
<ogra> ??
<ace_suares> brainstorm is great but so many ideas that it's random how many votes you get.
 * ogra see that when he opens places here
<ogra> called "recent documents"
<ace_suares> reent doucments is not is
<ace_suares> it
<ace_suares> oh and its not in places
<ogra> its the docs i recently opened
<ogra> sure it is
<ogra> last entry in my places menu
<ace_suares> look here http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/19774/
<ace_suares> you can vote
<ogra> ah
<ogra> did you take a look at zeitgeist ? i think it achieves something similar
<ogra> and is already on its way into karmic iirc
<ace_suares> okay thats good then
 * ogra didnt have time this UDS to attend any desktop session
<ace_suares> just to say that votes in brainstorm depend on how many people actually see the idea
<ace_suares> and that is pretty few since there ar eso many new ideas every second
<ogra> well, my team goes over brainstorm before registering specs
<ogra> every cycle
<ace_suares> all of them !?
<ogra> sadly there are not so many mobile or ARM related ones
<ace_suares> I cna add ARM MOBILE to every idea i have if you want :-)
<ogra> we have about two weeks to suggest new specs after release and before uds starts
<ogra> that doesnt help, it needs to be relevant for my work :P
<ace_suares> hehehe
<ogra> but we surely take them into account before spec registering starts
<ogra> and i know most of the other teams too
<ogra> the thing why you see so many unimplemented specs in your list is that we didnt have brainstorm back then ;)
<ogra> mark is resistant to the idea to delete any requests though ... thats why they should stay there ... they express a need
<ogra> nowadays ideas go on brainstorm ... get examined by the devs ... get turned into a spec ... get discussed at UDS ... and eventually get implemented
<ogra> the process got cleaner on the go
<ogra> back then it was "register a spec" if someone asked for an enhancement
 * ogra notices he still didnt overcome that habit ... looking at the backlog :P
<ace_suares> hehe so okay i make a brainstorm thing instead of a spec its MUCH easier and complies with my feeling that occasional contributions should be easy to enter.
<ogra> :)
<ace_suares> are the specs on the wiki used in the future? or was that an old way of doing things?
<ogra> they might ... someone might pick one up and implement it
<ogra> and the ones that are actually implemented are the actual documentation for the existing implementation
<ace_suares> no i mean is the way that is was done, posting spec on wiki then in lp, still the way they do it?
<ace_suares> i mean will this be used in the future or will it stop at these specs and they are 'historical'
<ogra> yes, thats the process and i think it will stay that way
<ogra> specs are usually first registered on LP
<ogra> i do create my wikipages at UDS when i take notes, but the specs need to be there before, because the lauuncpadlib based scheduler creates a schedule for UDS based on the specs and assigns slots and rooms
<ogra> the whole UDS is driven by launchpad nowadays ...
<ace_suares> so then we will see more specs in the future, it would be good to have a rule or such to make sure the specs habe theiur proer place in the wiki, what do you propose? or what's the rule if there is already one?
<ogra> the wiki is simply used because its the best way to collabortaively take notes
<ogra> i think its wiki..../Spec/
<ogra> and indeed CategorySpec for people that mess up the url
<ogra> which still happens at times
<ogra> heh, i just stumbled over a spec i registered on stgraber's behalf that was never written but is implemented
<ogra> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/improve-netbooting-with-udhcp
<ogra> since wednesday
<ace_suares> ha ha now you have to create a wiki page for it with the correct url :-)
<ogra> nah
<ogra> it was just "move that crap to main so ltsp can depend on it"
<ogra> and its not my spec
<ogra> i dont work on ltsp or edubuntu
<ace_suares> look at this: https://wiki.edubuntu.org/CategorySpec
<ogra> what i do on either is done in my spare time
<ogra> if that ever loads, that must be a huge amount of pages
<ogra> ah, there it is
<ace_suares> 1599 pages
<ogra> yeah
<ogra> and already a good bunch of them under /Specs/
<ace_suares> yeah I wish someone had a good rule for that then i could if i have spare time move those relating to edubuntu to the correct namespace
<ogra> well, many teams put it in their team namespace
<ace_suares> now we talking about it for 30 mins or more and still no task emerges. We need tasks, clearly described so we can DO stuff instead of discuss.
<ogra> look at the desktop team
<ace_suares> yeah the desktop team... we should do then Edubuntu/Specs/BlaDiBla
<ace_suares> is that the rule?
<ogra> for new specs it is
<ace_suares> now we know why wiki is slow
<ace_suares> Denis: some concern here that trojans may have been uploaded to your wiki server and are being sent out as linkspam
<ace_suares> Denis: my ubuntu / firefox refuses to download, but I'm not even going to try firing up a windows machine and testing with explorer
<ace_suares> Flannel: yeah, its a virus
<ace_suares> (ubuntu-doc)
<Lns> most times, when someone thinks their linux box has a virus/trojan/malware...its just a bug ;)
<ace_suares> its confirmed
<ace_suares> speaking of this, i sometimes get a 300x300px rectangle in my top tight edge of the screen. It is very unclear where it comes from and i think it's firefox/flash related. If this where a windows machine i'd be very concerned, I am still concerned since it's a new phenomena
<ace_suares> you can vote now ogra http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/20786/ :-)
<Lns> When I installed GCompris, there were some options within the interface that require you to install additional packages (such as gnucap) otherwise they won't run (gcompris tells you what you have to do). Do you guys think it would be sane to file a bug report against gcompris for including things like gnucap so you don't have to worry about it?
<Lns> (Jaunty amd64 btw)
<humbolt> how do I do group authentication with the least amount of work
<humbolt> group auth? I mean network auth.
<Lns> humbolt, you mean like ldap or active directory?
<humbolt> Lns: thelike
<humbolt> Lns: But I want this effortless
<Lns> humbolt, why do you need network auth if you want it to be really simple? why not just use passwd?
<humbolt> Lns: And at best well integrated into admin tools already available.
<humbolt> Lns: because I have roaming users?
<Lns> oooh.. *forgets that some people don't use ltsp*
<humbolt> Lns: I have many users and many machines. I am running LTSP currently, but I want more speed.
<humbolt> Lns: and multimedia
<Lns> humbolt, if you have an existing windows domain it might be easy to set up auth through that
<humbolt> Lns: no windows domain
<Lns> well you could do LDAP, AD, or even NIS...
<Lns> "Effortless"...probably not. But it will be stable once you get it set up, which is quite better than effortless then breaking later on
<humbolt> Lns: It would be nice, if I could still use the gnome user admin tool to create new accounts
<Lns> unfortunately, users-admin doesn't support anything like that.. and it's going away afaik
<Lns> humbolt, A lot of times I use KUser - it supports LDAP, which is better than nothing..unfortunately i dunno how to set up an LDAP auth for that stuff
<humbolt> Do PolicyKit and LDAP play together nicely?
<Lns> no clue :(
<humbolt> It seems DistroHeads are not aware of their should-be primary target market
<Lns> distroheads?...
<Lns> humbolt, it sounds like you are interested in Edubuntu. Would you like to help contribute to make it better?
<humbolt> heads of distros
<humbolt> probably
<Lns> humbolt, https://edge.launchpad.net/~edubuntu-members/+members#active
<Lns> You are more than welcome to join us to make it better!! :)
<Lns> We need contributors - there are no paid staff to develop Edubuntu.
<humbolt> Canonical should rather invest it's money in Edubuntu's market segment than in the Desktop market.
<humbolt> Would make so much sense, especially when you think of all the kids starting into the computer world with Ubuntu instead of MS.
<humbolt> I sure would like to contribute. I am thinking about contributing to nubae's FAT client attempts.
<humbolt> This is the most promising market.
<humbolt> Lns: Netbooks and Nettops all around. All we need is easy network auth and ways to manage all these machines.
<humbolt> Possibly netboot and net-root them.
<humbolt> anyways, got to go.
<humbolt> cu
<Lns> sbalneav, weren't you working on edubuntu-ldap-auth or some such a little while ago?
<sbalneav> Yes, I was.  Sabayon's been consuming most of my cycles these days.
<Lns> understood =) Was just curious.
<ace_suares> b
<atomic007za> hi
<ace_suares> hi atomic007za
<atomic007za> hey Ace
<atomic007za> how would I turn the sound off for all SDL driven apps?
<atomic007za> how would I turn the sound off for all SDL driven apps?@ boot time
#edubuntu 2009-07-25
<atomic007za> or how would set SDL_audiodriver=esd automacically when tuxtyping starts
<atomic007za> <atomic007za> or how could I just disable sound on tuxtyping for all uses as it starts?
<atomic007za> <atomic007za> I have not seen a conf file for this
<atomic007za> <atomic007za> SDL soung seems to be causing a problem when more than 2 clients log in
<atomic007za> <atomic007za> anyone?
<LaserJock> ace_suares: around?
<ace_suares> LaserJock now
<ace_suares> ah u left
<sbalneav> Evening all
<ace_suares> morning
<ace_suares> ping LaserJock
<ace_suares> ogra why are there so many unapproved members on edubuntu team ?
<sbalneav> Because they applied for membership, but then never did anything tangible to help out.
<sbalneav> Membership gives you things like voting rights on decisions, etc.
<sbalneav> But it's a meritocracy, so you have to "put in a little work" before you get it.
<ace_suares> oh so its probably a bunch of people they click 'join' cause it's so easy and then forget about it.
<ace_suares> and when will i become a member? Not that I want to :-) but i have to to get some work done, apparently. I am website member already, that was easy
<sbalneav> Well, when you apply, we can vote on it.
<ace_suares> I apllied two days agio
<ace_suares> sbalneav: u there
<ace_suares> LaserJock ping
<mhall119> I applied before I realized there were requirements on membership
<ace_suares> mhall119 would you like to contribute to the website and/or wiki ?
<mhall119> my wife is already contributing for the wiki
<ace_suares> oh okay
<ace_suares> whats her handle
<mhall119> I'm going to be contributing to Edubuntu itself, eventually
<mhall119> Michelle_Qimo
<ace_suares> mhall119 the wiki is part of Edubuntu :-)
<mhall119> ace_suares: the project, yes, I was talking about the actual distro
<mhall119> going to try and incorporate some of Qimo into Edubuntu
<ace_suares> mhall119 the docs go into the distro too :-)))
<mhall119> I know that's the plan, are they in there already?
<ace_suares> i checked out qimo but I don't know what to think of it
<mhall119> ace_suares: you're older than our target demographic
<mhall119> :)
<ace_suares> what i got was a normal desktop screen (well not gnome obviously) and I wouldnt be able to put a kid behind that thing
<mhall119> ah, you didn't read the FAQ then
<ace_suares> for instance, on the desktop, there is no icons that lead driectly to things for kids
<ace_suares> okay
<ace_suares> why shoud i read a faq ?
<mhall119> you shouldn't select "Automatically log in to this account" when installing
<ace_suares> i put in the cd and then that's all i do right?/
<ace_suares> mhall119 blast
<ace_suares> that featurre was so handy
<mhall119> the account you setup when installing is for a parent
<ace_suares> that shouldnt be in the faq but in the installation instructions
<mhall119> the Qimo account is already setup, and configured to automatically log in
<ace_suares> and btw can't you diasble that with preseed or something??
<mhall119> ace_suares: I'm planning on modifying Ubiquity to make that more clear in the next version
<ace_suares> would be nice, you almost lost me on Qimo just because of that!
<mhall119> you're not the only one
<mhall119> Qimo is still on v1.0, and we kind of rushed that out
<ace_suares> mhall119 users are badly understood
<mhall119> I didn't even know python at that point, so modifying Ubiquity was out of scope
<mhall119> ace_suares: I understand the problem, just didn't have the time and knowledge to do anything about it at the time
<ace_suares> okay okay you are forgiven ;-)
<ace_suares> I will  reinstall or is there a smarter way? Just disable autologin in the login manager?
<mhall119> https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/qimo/+spec/ubiquity-modification
<mhall119> You can probably just go to the Login Window settings and change the autologin back to Qimo
<ace_suares> oh i will try
<ace_suares> mhall119 still there?
<mhall119> yup
<ace_suares> you know what drives me crazy?
<mhall119> the state of the Edubuntu wiki?
<ace_suares> l'linux' is all so good on old compiuters... qimo claims that too
<mhall119> a claim I can back up with facts
<ace_suares> but my screen is to small and the login manager windows doesnt fit in the screen and there is NO way to get to the 'OK' button. It's off screen even if i removed the two panels
<ace_suares> so how good is it then :-(
<mhall119> yeah, there are several dialogs with that problem
<ace_suares> okay i can do CLI but ...
<mhall119> no, there's an easier way
<ace_suares> mhall119 why can't one resize the dialogs ? afwul
<mhall119> hit Alt+F7
<ace_suares> alt-f7 ?
<ace_suares> and then
<mhall119> you can move the dialog window past the screen edge
<ace_suares> ah
<ace_suares> okay
<mhall119> the Evolution and Thunderbird account dialogs are some of the worst at that
<ace_suares> yah i remmber that now biut still it's very bad UI design
<mhall119> I agree, especially with netbooks becoming so wide spread, a lot of these need to be reconsidered
<mhall119> there's probably bug reports about it already
<ace_suares> its not ALT+F7 , that maximize/restore
<ace_suares> it;s ALT+_drag mouse
<ace_suares> but thx anyway!
<ace_suares> ahhh that's much nicer!
<ace_suares> that's the way kids can work with it
<ace_suares> a pity that when you move the mouse over the icons, there is no text explaining what the icon does
<ace_suares> i got a vague blue icon
<ace_suares> truns out to be tux4kids
<ace_suares> but in generals you are on the good way
<ace_suares> this is mor eof an interface for kids
<mhall119> there should be a tooltip on mouse over
<mhall119> the TuxType icon, the vague blue one, I don't like either
<ace_suares> there wasnt a tooltip. I installed in dutch by the way
<ace_suares> wiki is sooooooo slooooooowwwww
<mhall119> ace_suares: you around?
<mhall119> was reading https://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuSiteFeatures
<mhall119> and for LaunchPad Auth Integration, if you're going to use Drupal it can be OpenID
<mhall119> just a thought
<LaserJock> hello Edubuntu land
 * LaserJock is trying to get through all of ace_suares's emails
<LaserJock> ace_suares: you around? we should discuss this Download page
<LaserJock> ace_suares: ping
<ace_suares> hey man
<LaserJock> ace_suares: we need to discuss this Download wiki page
<ace_suares>  please do
<LaserJock> ace_suares: I don't think it's really a good idea to have a Download page on the wiki as it's a duplication
<LaserJock> and the wiki is not meant for end users
<LaserJock> I think it might cause confusion
<ace_suares> I can relate to that. But did you red my msg to uwe ?
<LaserJock> yes
<LaserJock> but we already have a Download page on edubuntu.org
<ace_suares> so how is it that it is not confusing now?
<LaserJock> that should be *the* download page
<ace_suares> if you read my msg you'd know thta that page is very confusing
<LaserJock> so other pages should link to it
<ace_suares> dont you agree?
<LaserJock> sure
<LaserJock> that's why we fix the page
<LaserJock> not make another page that tries to explain the confusing page :-)
<ace_suares> okay so we need to addres show to make THTA page more logical. But back to your 'suggestion'
<ace_suares> he he
<ace_suares> so if people are on the wiki home page
<ace_suares> and then click download
<LaserJock> I've been working off-and-on with the Ubuntu webmaster to get a download page that looks like Ubuntu's
<ace_suares> they get thrown in an entirely different area, page laypout and such
<ace_suares> do you think that is acceptable ??
<LaserJock> yes
<ace_suares> okay
<ace_suares> why ?
<LaserJock> if they land on wiki.edubuntu.org they are in the wrong place
<LaserJock> they should get linked to www.edubuntu.org
<LaserJock> it is helpful if it's visually a bit different to distinguish the two places
<ace_suares> did you *try* to click on the link in the wiki.edubuntu.org/Edubuntu ?
<ace_suares> how does that feel to the new user that never been on edubuntu ?
<LaserJock> how do you mean?
<ace_suares> do you think the new user has any idea that there are two different sites? And what they entail ?
<LaserJock> if a person lands on wiki.edubuntu.org the goal is to get them off as soon as possible
<LaserJock> the two sites are completely different technologies
<ace_suares> well okay but how to get them off? just link them to a totally different site without explanation ?
<LaserJock> yes
<ace_suares> okay lets vote on that in the nex tmeeting then. Could you send a mail to the list pointing out your viewpoint?
<LaserJock> we don't need a vote
<LaserJock> we just don't need multiple download pages
<LaserJock> we need to make *the* download page better so it's not confusing
<LaserJock> and get people off of wiki.edubuntu.org as soon as possible
<ace_suares> swell.
<ace_suares> let me ask you one thing
<ace_suares> what do you expect of me?
<LaserJock> you're doing great work
<LaserJock> you've been going through stuff
<ace_suares> yeah and then you come and pick on a random item in my proposal
<ace_suares> what i need is a general idea
<ace_suares> a guidance
<ace_suares> a goal
<mhall119> I'd like to second that you're doing great work, ace_suares
<ace_suares> not picking apart my proposal while I am making it
<LaserJock> ok, well
<ace_suares> i am working my butt of here with the risk of totally being bruned down by everone who wants something else then i propose
<ace_suares> i say, either explain me exactly what to do so i can help
<LaserJock> I'm trying to offer guidance here
<ace_suares> or let me do my thing, commenting on it is quite okay, and then change whateve rneed to be changed when the proposal has its fdorm
<LaserJock> one minor issue with your proposal
<ace_suares> what do you think? I am not trying to offend here
<LaserJock> I'm just trying to avoid having you waste time on stuff
<ace_suares> LaserJock: thx! Sincerely. But how can you or anyone avoid that when there is no clear goal where to work too?
<LaserJock> well
<LaserJock> we already had the goal of moving all the user documentation to help.ubuntu.com/community
<ace_suares> I am just making things up along the way so to come to a proposal that can then be altered. It's very easy to change the downlaod page
<LaserJock> well, it is and it isn't
<ace_suares> LaserJock: yeah that's true and I asked for a list, but there is no list
<LaserJock> modification of an existing page isn't much of a problem
<ace_suares> There is lots of other stuff though
<LaserJock> but creating new pages can be a bit tougher
<ace_suares> specs, wikiplans, the lot
<LaserJock> yep
<ace_suares> I think I got the moin moin pretty much under control. Some things can't be done nicely though.
<LaserJock> so, I'm just saying don't bother with a download page
<ace_suares> that's okay LJ
<ace_suares> I know what you want to say with it.
<ace_suares> i don't agree tough, but that's a differnet thing
<ace_suares> btw how does this democrazy work
<ace_suares> you tell me what you think is right and then i do it ?
<mhall119> it's not really a democracy
<ace_suares> I have seriously no clue
<LaserJock> it's more meritocracy
<ace_suares> he he i like that
<LaserJock> people who have been in the team a long time and have done the work have the most say
<ace_suares> meritocrazy includes that first you need to be able to do something
<LaserJock> sometimes there's a single leader
<mhall119> or an ad-hocracy if you read Doctorow
<LaserJock> we often have votes
<ace_suares> before someone knows your merit, right ??
<ace_suares> ad-hocrazy is even nicer :-)
<LaserJock> we *do* have an Edubuntu Council but that's mostly for higher level governance and decision making
<mhall119> ace_suares: yes, you have to do something first
<mhall119> it just doesn't necessarily have to be done in/with edubuntu
<ace_suares> In the whole light of attracting people to make a contribution, how do you see this meritocracy functioning to that end?
<LaserJock> when they contribute they get a say
<ace_suares> But what they contribute is defined by the meritocrats?
<LaserJock> if a person wants a piece of the decision making pie, they need to jump in and start contributing
<mhall119> ace_suares: if you have done things in the past that makes other confident in your ability to do things right in the future, your voice has more weight
<LaserJock> no
<LaserJock> not necessarily
<ace_suares> just asking
<LaserJock> often the "meritocrats" will define things that need to be done, etc.
<LaserJock> and offer advice and guidance
<ace_suares> LaserJock: but there is a lack of definition in what needs to be done or dont you agree
<LaserJock> but generally it's pretty loose
<LaserJock> yes, it is lacking
<LaserJock> I think primarily because we don't have a lot of people
<ace_suares> so waht do i do then?
<mhall119> ace_suares: if a long-time Debian maintaner wanted to do something with Edubuntu,their debian work contributes to their merit
<LaserJock> for instance
<ace_suares> I wnat to contribute, but what to contribute?
<LaserJock> you are already starting!
<ace_suares> at the moment i am trying to make a proposal how the wiki can look
<LaserJock> right
<ace_suares> and it includes a download page that probably will disappear in the final version
<ace_suares> is that okay ?
<mhall119> ace_suares: have you past experience cleaning up wikis or making them more user-friendly?
<LaserJock> why not?
<ace_suares> okay then. Please keep the comments coming, they are very valuable for me. The earlier you comment the less unneeded work I am going to do and the more direction the work will get.
<ace_suares> For instance, lining the icons in all the different pages is intersting the least
<ace_suares> you need to re upload thenm on every page
<LaserJock> what's wrong with the current page?
<ace_suares> the solution i found is this page https://wiki.edubuntu.org/Edubuntu/WikiSite/SiteImages
<ace_suares> in other pages you can link to those images (ubuntu logo and such)
<ace_suares> that keeps the repeatedly used images in one place and it's easy to change them troughtout the wiki
<ace_suares> I dont know if that's the right soultion, becuase I don't know if there are other solutions
<ace_suares> so i am trying this out now
<ace_suares> and if comments coming in saying that it can be done better, I'll change it if it makes sense.
<ace_suares> also, it would have bene very nice to be able to include a footer of some kind
<ace_suares> moinmoin docs say that there is an <<INCLUDE>> directive but that doesn't work on this wiki
<ace_suares> maybe it's turned off
<LaserJock> it works
<LaserJock> we can do headers and footers
<ace_suares> that's too bad because repeating stuff at the bottom could be easily maintained very simpel in one place
<ace_suares> i think i can not do headers and footers from my account
<ace_suares> and besides the include is more interesting
<LaserJock> it's probably just a syntax thing
<ace_suares> you can make a 'team' page and then include that page as PART of another page.
<ace_suares> If you look at the wiki now there's couple of pages that specify all teams
<ace_suares> if that part was included from one file than updates to the team would be in one palce and propagate trough the wiki
<ace_suares> now there is some merit for you ;-)
<ace_suares> If you can find out LaserJock how to do includes, it would help me very much.
<LaserJock> ace_suares: so I'm wondering specifically what you don't like about the current page?
<ace_suares> http://moinmo.in/HelpOnMacros/Include
<LaserJock> you do <<Include(Page)>>
<ace_suares> I dont know shoudl I discuss that now? or via the mailing list? It seems like a waste sometimes to just discuss it in irc and tomorrow someelse will say another thing.
<ace_suares> LaserJock: I think I tried it. Maybe you try it and show me what I did wrong.
<LaserJock> ace_suares: here's an example use: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Header
<ace_suares> thx!
<ace_suares> so maybe it has to do with the path
<ace_suares> I will try.
<LaserJock> ace_suares: are you mostly concerned about changing the layout?
<ace_suares> I made this https://wiki.edubuntu.org/WikiSite/BigFooter
<ace_suares> wnat to include that on some pages
<ace_suares> no i am not concerned on the layout if you read the message to uwe carefully you'll see my thoiughts about it
<ace_suares> it's structure, maintainability, and logical flow trough the site
<ace_suares> layout is something afterwards
<ace_suares> COOL ! it works!
<LaserJock> I guess I'm confused as to what is wrong with the current page
<LaserJock> other than it needing to be updated and maybe compacted a bit
<ace_suares> is it okay if i explain that later?
<ace_suares> takes a couple of words and I'd rather do it in plain view
<LaserJock> I guess so
<LaserJock> I would just say that it's important to keep in mind that it's not primarily targeted to end-users
<ace_suares> also, i am adding pages but I am not removing or moving pages. Shold have to much influence on th ecurrent site.
<ace_suares> Shouldn't
<LaserJock> the target would be for potential and current contributors
<LaserJock> sure, no problem
<ace_suares> as a potential contributor, I got lost in the site almost immediatley
<LaserJock> on that page specifically?
<LaserJock> I agree that the site as a whole is a mess
<ace_suares> What is the difference between Community and Develop ?
<ace_suares> as long as we agree on that we are good ;-)
<LaserJock> Community is ... people, communication, etc.
<ace_suares> Why is wiki.edubuntu.org not at all prominently edubuntu?
<LaserJock> how do you mean?
<LaserJock> ace_suares: hmm, you need to watch the path on some of your pages
<LaserJock> ace_suares: they should all start with Edubuntu/ to keep the namespace clean
<ace_suares> yeah that was an error i made on the beginning. I am on top of that now. No worries :-)
<ace_suares> I just moved WikiSite/BigFooter to Edubuntu/WikiSite/BigFooter
<LaserJock> k
<ace_suares> I'd like you to follow closely but come up with suggestions... not 'commands'.,.. please?
<LaserJock> so I think the idea with Community and Develop was that Community was to gather community info and governance. The "people stuff"
<LaserJock> and Develop was more the technical things like todo lists, roadmaps, etc.
<LaserJock> more the mechanics
<ace_suares> I think they are partly overlapping. It shows in the pages. Teams is on many places. I gotta analyse it a bit more.
<LaserJock> yeah, there probably is some overlap
<LaserJock> I like how you used "Grow Edubuntu"
<LaserJock> actually
<LaserJock> I'm not sure that Community belongs on the wiki page other than to point to edubuntu.org/Community
<LaserJock> so "Community", "Get Edubuntu", and "Need Support?" should be just links to edubuntu.org
<LaserJock> and then Grow Edubuntu is the main trust of the wiki
<ace_suares> thank you LaserJock about the 'Grow Edubuntu' thing. I think if you read my proposal page instead of the current page, you'll find it much more alluring...
<ace_suares> LaserJock: so "Community", "Get Edubuntu", and "Need Support?" should be just links to edubuntu.org
<ace_suares>  -- I can agree with that
<ace_suares> My toughts mor eor less
<ace_suares> except that edubuntu.org is a mess too
<LaserJock> yes
<LaserJock> one thing at a time :-0
<LaserJock> :-) rather
<ace_suares> gotaa clean up the wiki and define clearly waht those icons meen
<ace_suares> then fix the website too
<LaserJock> ace_suares: what do you think of https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam as a team landing page?
<ace_suares> i like the header I will study that header too
<ace_suares> I will tell you what i think about that page as I am progressing trough the site
<ace_suares> it has many drawbacks mainly there is no overview
<ace_suares> a table of contents would imporove it already greatly
<ace_suares> you need an overview what you cna expext on the page else you wont scroll down
<ace_suares> damn how you escapce {{attachment:file.png}} so that it shows the literal text?
<LaserJock> {{{ }}} maybe
<ace_suares> sp {{{{{ }}}}} or just {{{ }}}
<LaserJock> just
<ace_suares> no all five :-)
<ace_suares> thx
<LaserJock> oh, you wanted the {{ too
<ace_suares> yeha becau you would paste that into the page
<LaserJock> right
<ace_suares> look: https://wiki.edubuntu.org/Edubuntu/WikiSite/SiteImages
<ace_suares> if youpaste them in yuour page they will show the correct image AND a alt-text (for accessabiity_
<ace_suares> and if you ever want to chage the edubuntu logo troughout the site, it's done in ONE edit :-)))
<ace_suares> now is that good or bad ...
<ace_suares> gotta go to a party now
<ace_suares> thx LaserJock for being involved!
<ace_suares> mhall119 too
<mhall119> what?  I wasn't paying attention\
<ace_suares> mhall119 just thanking you that's all
<mhall119> oh, I didn't do anything
<ace_suares> LaserJock: will you send a mail to the list sufggesting that the three buttons go to the one site and the grow edubuntu goes to the wiki ? would help tremendously
<ace_suares> gotta go now bye
#edubuntu 2009-07-26
<Ahmuck> hello all
<mhall119|eeepc> hello
<ace_suares> ping
<ace_suares> LaserJock:
<LaserJock> ace_suares: still around?
<ace_suares> hey are u awake ?
<LaserJock> ugg, we need to fix the Launchpad teams too :/
<LaserJock> yes, I'm awake
<ace_suares> I am nearly off to bed. thx for your comments! I would like you to look at what I did with the teams pages.
<ace_suares> Could you follow me for a while and then after that react ???
<ace_suares> or have something else on your mind ?
<LaserJock> no, go for it
<ace_suares> https://wiki.edubuntu.org/Edubuntu/WikiSite/Teams
<ace_suares> tell me if you;re done reading
<ace_suares> (plz implicitly included in all my text, kk?)
<LaserJock> ace_suares: have you read https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/StrategyDocument ?
<ace_suares> nope want me to do tha tnow ?
<ace_suares> wow
<ace_suares> still i'd like you to follow for a while, plz?
<ace_suares> LaserJock: ?
<LaserJock> sure
<ace_suares> k
<ace_suares> here comes stage 2
<LaserJock> just got done reading it
<ace_suares> https://wiki.edubuntu.org/Edubuntu/WikiSite/Teams/EdubuntuMembers
<ace_suares> just an example though
<ace_suares> plz look at the raw text too
<ace_suares> now look here: https://wiki.edubuntu.org/Edubuntu/WikiSite/StyleGuide
<ace_suares> now look at the raw text of https://wiki.edubuntu.org/Edubuntu/WikiSite/Teams
<LaserJock> k
 * LaserJock feels like ace_suares is going to hate him
<ace_suares> no problem i am just trrying out things and learn a lot on the way
<ace_suares> I am just gonna ask you now, do you think this setup is workable?
<ace_suares> It provides for easy adding and changing individual team pages under responsibility of that team
<LaserJock> I think the includes thing is cool, I just don't think Teams is the place to do
<ace_suares> and the main team page (or wherever the teams are listes) is very easy one line include
<ace_suares> why not ?
<LaserJock> I don't think we need a teams page particularly
<LaserJock> the Launchpad team pages have the description
<ace_suares> will you look at this page for a sec? https://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuWikiCleanupEffort
<ace_suares> scroll down to the end
<LaserJock> see it
<ace_suares> thats' the current state of teams pages
<ace_suares> differnet url's, listst that are not complete (like yours)... how to streamline that?
<LaserJock> well the plan is
<LaserJock> to get control of the teams
<LaserJock> and slim them down
<ace_suares> well you should really tell me if there is a plan to all this, buddy :-)
<ace_suares> but thats a good paln
<LaserJock> there's always a plan
<ace_suares> yeah i need to know though
<LaserJock> but nobody every does anything about it
<LaserJock> yes
<ace_suares> i am doing things without a plan
<ace_suares> a lot of things
<ace_suares> quickly
<LaserJock> I just can't keep up with you very well
<ace_suares> so with a plan it would evne be quicker
<ace_suares> he he
<ace_suares> i am just trying things out
<ace_suares> trying out structures
<ace_suares> and then we can look if they are okay or not
<LaserJock> ok, but what about moving the user docs to help.ubuntu.com/community?
<ace_suares> i was not going to build all team pages like this before we could agree
<ace_suares> this is just a sample of what *could* be
<LaserJock> sure
<ace_suares> user docs? if you give me a list of user docs that need to be moved i'll move them, told you before
<ace_suares> i can't get the list
<LaserJock> just search around
<ace_suares> I can search for Edubuntu turns up 246 pages
<LaserJock> yep
<ace_suares> I want to restructure and cleanip the whole wiki
<LaserJock> LTSP and similar are more likely to get something
<LaserJock> yes
<ace_suares> in a form that you /we can all agree on
<LaserJock> but perhaps it's good to start small
<LaserJock> before revolutionizing the whole thing :-)
<ace_suares> i think this is rather small
<ace_suares> I can do 246 pages in a couple of days, really
<ace_suares> if I know where to go with it
<ace_suares> and what is there aginast revolutizoning
<LaserJock> well, it's not easy
<ace_suares> it's good thing
<ace_suares> it's not easy cause there is no plan
<ace_suares> the techniques are easy and interesting
<LaserJock> no, but moving a page can be a lot of work
<ace_suares> the actual doing it is pretty boring but fast
<LaserJock> trying to figure out the web of links
<ace_suares> it's not
<LaserJock> updating everything
<ace_suares> ok
<ace_suares> why
<LaserJock> redirects if necessary, etc.
<ace_suares> all user docs are one page
<ace_suares> or not?
<LaserJock> no
<ace_suares> without links
<ace_suares> show me one
<LaserJock> and you should do a google search
<LaserJock> to see if other people link to the page
<ace_suares> oh well, that's a simple thing
<LaserJock> and interwiki search to see if there are any links and fix if needed
<LaserJock> it's not *huge*
<ace_suares> every page that gets moved gets a redirect in the page like #redirect someurl
<ace_suares> it will do the redirect properly
<LaserJock> but I can't do more than 5-10 pages a day
<ace_suares> search engines will learn
<ace_suares> I can do 100 pages a day if i knew what to do
<ace_suares> why so conservative?
<ace_suares> right now i am only making new pages
<LaserJock> because, 1) it's the wiki team policy
<ace_suares> to build the structure
<LaserJock> 2) it's not nice to break
<LaserJock> 3) this is how we get into a big mess
<ace_suares> why should it break?> and dont see that
<ace_suares> why shoudl we break? I don't see that
<LaserJock> well
<LaserJock> because we should delete pages if we can
<LaserJock> otherwise we just add more and more pages
<ace_suares> no, never, just redirect
<ace_suares> okay really obsolte pages can be deleted
<LaserJock> the goal is deletion where possible
<LaserJock> but being careful about it
<ace_suares> why? what's the problem with redirect?
<LaserJock> because the redirected page shows up just the same
<LaserJock> in searches, etc.
<ace_suares> does it? there's 2 ways of redirect
<ace_suares> with http refresh
<ace_suares> and with #redirect
<ace_suares>  I think the latter gives a 303
<ace_suares> search engines learn from that
<LaserJock> so I want to make a search of Edubuntu *not* give you 250+ page
<LaserJock> wiki redirects show up as regular pages until you click on them
<ace_suares> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=com.ubuntu%3Aen-US%3Aunofficial&hs=eGw&q=ThinClientHowToNAT&aq=f&oq=&aqi=
<ace_suares> click on the first link
<ace_suares> so how can we delete without breaking ?
<LaserJock> you're gonna have to either break of leave the redirect
<ace_suares> need to go to sleep in 2 min just smoked last sigarette
<LaserJock> hence why we need to be careful with where we put stuff!
<ace_suares> so what are you proposing
<LaserJock> well, that one is fairly heavily linked so we have to leave the redirect
<LaserJock> if there's no outside links we can delete and fix internal wiki links
<ace_suares> if we give each redirect page a CategoryEdubuntuRedirected, then we can search in wiki with '-CategoryEdubuntuRedirect' and only real pages will show up
<LaserJock> well, we need to be careful with Categories too
<LaserJock> or we get too many
<LaserJock> but that is definitely a good thought
<ace_suares> ohhh! thnak you :-)
<LaserJock> maybe we could use a generic category
<ace_suares> I dont want to break either but there is no way you can do a cleanup without hurting something
<LaserJock> like CategoryEdubuntuObsolete or something
<ace_suares> is fine it doesnt matter as long as they are all the same
<ace_suares> And what if outside links refer to pages we think should be deleted?
<ace_suares> It just takes some time
<ace_suares> I can give you a NICE example
<LaserJock> we just set up a redirect
<ace_suares> i totally agree but for the DELETED pages (where the content is really obsolete) we can redirect to a generic error page that leads to the home page or so
<ace_suares> https://wiki.edubuntu.org/Edubuntu/Community/Photos
<ace_suares> look at the first link
<ace_suares> I edited that lik
<ace_suares> link
<ace_suares> since highvoltage moved HIS photo's
<ace_suares> so the link was not working at all but was still on edubuntu pages
<ace_suares> and the hotos where still there just moved (/v/ somewhere in url
<LaserJock> hmm
<ace_suares> yeahyeah
<LaserJock> I'm trying to think if an example where we really wanted to delete a page (and it was ok to do so) but we wanted to redirect somewhere
<ace_suares> also the 1 2 3 links ion that page dont work but could be my internet error so i left them
<LaserJock> I think we'd just want to delete the page
<ace_suares> there is https://wiki.edubuntu.org/CategoryEdubuntuProposedForRemoval
<ace_suares> all pages that we think should be deleted and not directed should go there
<LaserJock> right
<ace_suares> then one day we can sit an dgo trough th elist and say this goes that stays
<LaserJock> yeah
<LaserJock> if people can do initial triage
<ace_suares> if the list is there, it's easy :-)
<ace_suares> I am afraid I am doing the triage now :-)
<LaserJock> it's a great way to contribute!
<ace_suares> but we could ask 5 people to spend 2 hrs and give them a 50 links
<ace_suares> thats 250 links
<ace_suares> and let them do one thing: say proposed for removal or leave it as it is
<ace_suares> then we'd have our distributed triage
<ace_suares> and then we could ask the 5 people for 2 hrs to do that list and say for each link 'CategoryLaserJokAgrees' or disagrees
<LaserJock> heh
<ace_suares> and then do a good search and it will give us all pages to be deleted
<ace_suares> did you notice how many people wnated to contribute since last week ?
<ace_suares> 3 or so
<LaserJock> yep
<ace_suares> i think we can harnass their enthousiams by giving them plain task
<ace_suares> like a list of links and the taks to 'add categoryxyz to those pages'
<ace_suares> or 'copy those pages to /bla/bli/pagename'
<ace_suares> poeple love to be told what to do
<ace_suares> it's takes off a part of the responsibility
<ace_suares> in the end we'll have our cleand up wiki
<ace_suares> and some styleguides as to new pages (making templates)
<ace_suares> and then the janitor job is simple
<ace_suares> to keep it focussed for like one or two releases
<ace_suares> thats what i think could happen
<LaserJock> so here's sort of how would like to see this go down
 * ace_suares is all ears
<LaserJock> you and hopefully some other people who're willing to help
<LaserJock> go through the wiki page and flag for deletion/moving/updating
<LaserJock> so that they show up on the wiki cleanup page
<LaserJock> then one or all of the core Edubuntu people can go through and sign off
<ace_suares> yes
<LaserJock> how does that sound?
<ace_suares> very good!
<LaserJock> so let's do that first before messing with the structure for now
<LaserJock> after we've cleaned cruft
<ace_suares> well
<LaserJock> we can look at what's left and figure out the best structure
<ace_suares> how would 'we' know how to 'move' a page if there is no new structure?
<ace_suares> deleting is fine
<LaserJock> because moving should be for user documentation
<ace_suares> updating is difficult since... who will update?
<LaserJock> if it's an easy update you guys can do it
<LaserJock> if it's not just flag it
<ace_suares> I think if you are doing it like that you are missing an opportunity to make it a good wiki
<LaserJock> how so?
<ace_suares> but it sure will help
<ace_suares> becaue if you know the ne3w structure (and it's not that difficult) then you can flag the moves correctly
<ace_suares> and when you all sign off on the move
<ace_suares> then it's simple for 'us' to do it
<LaserJock> well, let's worry about that as a secondary thing
<LaserJock> the idea is as a first step to clean cruft
<LaserJock> and *then* make the structure as we want
<ace_suares> well if you want... but look again at the team page ehh. wait..
<ace_suares> https://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuWikiCleanupEffort
<ace_suares> at he bottom
<ace_suares> that is a search on 'edubuntu team'
<ace_suares> How should i flag EdubuntuItalianTeam?
<ace_suares> or testingTeam
<ace_suares> or... more weird NicaraguanTeam?
<ace_suares> you need to think of an algoritm
<ace_suares> that we lowly contributors can work with
<LaserJock> well, unfortunately I don't think it's quite that easy
<ace_suares> it's unfortunately that you think that or unfortunately that it is not so easy ???
<LaserJock> if a page looks questionable you can just flag it
<ace_suares> flag it how?.. in this paticular case?
<LaserJock> you can just put it on the wiki cleanup page with a note
<ace_suares> ah now you complicate things!
<ace_suares> for me to just add a category to a wiki page is simple
<LaserJock> yes, but it's not that easy in some cases
<ace_suares> for me to make a list of pages with notes, very time consuming and prone to errors
<ace_suares> let the category mechanism do the work for us
<LaserJock> were a category works, fine
<LaserJock> but in some cases I think it's good to have notes
<ace_suares> 'flag' means add a category and you can make as many as you want
<LaserJock> no, don't make as many as you want
<ace_suares> they will be empty afterwards, after the clean up
<LaserJock> it just make a big mess
<ace_suares> no...
<LaserJock> they need to make sense
<ace_suares> they need to make sense for the clean up yes
<ace_suares> like a local variable after the clean up they will all be gone
<ace_suares> a category only exsits if there is pages that have that category
<LaserJock> right, I'm just saying sometimes a simple category flag is insufficient and doesn't allow for discussion
<ace_suares> well you are maybe right but try to imagine making a list of 100 pages by copying the URL and then add a note
<ace_suares> what order the need to be in
<LaserJock> I'm just saying for the non-obvious ones
<LaserJock> like probably < 10
<ace_suares> if you do something with that page you need  to do bookkeeping on that order page
<ace_suares> well you can make a category 'WithNotes' and in that page make the note,s that would work
<LaserJock> well, I don't care so much
<ace_suares> but still. how should i flag italianteam? looking for guidance here to complete a task... seriously...
<LaserJock> I just find categories to get messy if overly done so I try to avoid doing too many
<ace_suares> yeah in the wiki i agree
<ace_suares> we could also discuss what categories would end up in the cleaned up wiki
<ace_suares> i think 4-6 would be really enough
<LaserJock> EdubuntuItalianTeam is a redirect
<LaserJock> so I'm not sure we do anything with it
<ace_suares> well at least make it catergory is redirect to make local search in moinmoin better
<LaserJock> I guess so
<ace_suares> or maybe not]
<ace_suares> but at leas tit needs a guid line
<ace_suares> it's like writing softwar efor humans
<LaserJock> do - searches work on the wiki?
<ace_suares> you need specs
<ace_suares> and rules/code
<ace_suares> so the HPU (Human Processor Units) know what to do
<ace_suares> sure
<ace_suares> try 'edubuntu -cookbook - handbook'
<ace_suares> and try just 'edubuntu'
<LaserJock> ok cool
<LaserJock> so yeah, we should add a redirect category to redirects
<LaserJock> that would be a great triage task
<ace_suares> you can even embed search in a page <<FullSearchCached('edubuntu -cookbook') and that page will always show all those that match
<ace_suares> yes it would very clear and consice
<ace_suares> https://wiki.edubuntu.org/CategoryEdubuntuProposedForRemoval check out the raw text on that one
<LaserJock> I don't see an existing CategoryRedirect
<LaserJock> perhaps we should email the doc team and see if that could be an Ubuntu-wide thing
<ace_suares> No but it should be CategoryEdubuntuRedirect as not to mess with the others
<LaserJock> I don't know why it shouldn't be Ubuntu-wide
<ace_suares> ha ha now you make it larger then needed
<ace_suares> but its' possible like CategorySpec does ALL specs
<ace_suares> I added CategoryEdubuntuSpec so they can be seperated
<LaserJock> there's no real reason to distinguish between Ubuntu redirects and Edubuntu redirects
<LaserJock> yeah, that's all historic
<LaserJock> original Edubuntu was just a part of Ubuntu really and there weren't that many specs
<LaserJock> now it make a lot more sense to have a separate category
<ace_suares> whatever you say, but if you decide to lets' say vet all Edubuntu redirect and delete a couple of them after vetting
<ace_suares> then you will be in toruble
<LaserJock> how so?
<ace_suares> beacuse how wil you make a list of things to vet?
<LaserJock> well, I'd imagine Edubuntu CategoryRedirect
<ace_suares> yeah that might work
<ace_suares> can you make a small mail for the devel outlining this discussion as a start to defining the triage task ?
<ace_suares> just the general outlines and ideas where we are going?
<ace_suares> you did well on the last one
<ace_suares> it's important that all know about it and not just those listening in here (whihc seems to be none)
<ace_suares> i really need to go now i very much appreciate the time you are taking to talk this trough
<LaserJock> k
<LaserJock> will do
<ace_suares> nighty
<LaserJock> and thanks
<ace_suares> morning all. not much time today for Edubuntu.
<humbolt> who has tested an LTSP FAT client setup yet?
<highvoltage> *sigh*
<highvoltage> sbalneav: I don't know what that "ace" guy is on about. are we attracting crazies again?
<mhall119> highvoltage: that "ace" guy is doing a lot of work on the Wiki
<highvoltage> mhall119: indeed
<LaserJock> ace_suares: you sure do create a lot of work :-)
<Ahmuck> edubuntu is funny
<LaserJock> "haha" funny? or "OMG this is horrible" funny?
<Ahmuck> community driven, a throwaway child of ubuntu, dying in the clutches of administrative overhead all because it's dependence of ubuntu's resources.
<LaserJock> it has nothing to do with ubuntu resources
<LaserJock> ubuntu's resources are quite good
<Ahmuck> any reason then we need to use launchpad?
<LaserJock> Launchpad is an *excellent* tool
<LaserJock> and I don't think there's a lot of administrative overhead
<LaserJock> what seems to be lacking is people willing/able to put significant effort into it
<Ahmuck> why the impass of getting things done in edubuntu?  every time someone comes along willing to make a push to get edubuntu moving along, someone throws a wet rag on them
<LaserJock> I don't think people are trying to throw a wet rag
<LaserJock> they're maybe trying to guide the effort
<Ahmuck> iirc, this morning i saw another unpleasent reference to someone willing to move edubuntu along.  real change comes from a small group of people willing to do someething, not large groups
<Ahmuck> large groups provide stablity for research and large corporations, but do little inovation
<LaserJock> I don't understand what you mean
<LaserJock> what large group are you referring to?
<Ahmuck> look at what has been done to edubuntu.  it's lost anybody connected with paid developemnt
<LaserJock> it did lose it's paid development
<Ahmuck> now that it's fallen to volunteer individuals, a community effort, and getting the go ahead within the current structer, were still getting dampered.  shall i start listing the people that keep leaving, because they keep trying to get things done
<LaserJock> yes, please do
<Ahmuck> LJ is there anybody that is doing full time dev on edubuntu?
<LaserJock> no
<Ahmuck> from conical
<LaserJock> no, nobody is full time period
<LaserJock> well
<LaserJock> stgraber would be the closest on LTSP
<LaserJock> since his day job is LTSP
<Ahmuck> stgraber: day job is ltsp?  with conical?
<LaserJock> no
<LaserJock> Revolution Linux
<LaserJock> it's a commercial Ubuntu offshoot I believe
<Ahmuck> i get the impression that people are waiting in the corners to see if it succeeds.  if it does, claim it, if it doesn't let it die
<LaserJock> well, it won't ever succeed if everybody waits in the corners :(
 * Ahmuck wonders why it's called "revolution" linux ... he he
<LaserJock> I can scream until I'm blue in the face saying what needs to be done
<LaserJock> but if nobody is willing to get into action on things then I'm not sure how we can move forward
<LaserJock> and if people are willing to listen to those of us who have experience doing this stuff I'm not sure what exactly to do
<LaserJock> *aren't willing
<Ahmuck> back to the admin overhead, i've watched groups come togather, and they usually "settle" out.  guidence is good, but over guidence can be sour.  it really makes it sour when members of the group start calling names like "crazies"
<Ahmuck> someone's stepped up to offer help, the last thing you edubuntu needs is calling volunteers names
<LaserJock> who called people names?
<Ahmuck> looks like my connection got reset, don't know what i missed
<ace_suares> hi guys
<ace_suares> i am the 'crazy i suppose
<LaserJock> Ahmuck: who called people crazies?
<ace_suares> highvoltage: *sigh*
<ace_suares> highvoltage: sbalneav: I don't know what that "ace" guy is on about. are we attracting crazies again?
<ace_suares> ubottu [n=supybot@ubuntu/bot/ubottu] entered the room.
<ace_suares> mhall119: highvoltage: that "ace" guy is doing a lot of work on the Wiki
<ace_suares> highvoltage: mhall119: indeed
<mhall119> who what?
<ace_suares> this is what Ahmuck is talking about. I was not very happy with it but chose to let it pass.
<Ahmuck> lol, sorry
<ace_suares> Thanks mhall119 for defending
<ace_suares> I do think it's a very bad attitude towards newcomers, though ;-)
<mhall119> I wouldn't tall that defending, because I didn't think you were being attacked, just misunderstood
<mhall119> they probably get a lot of people who jump in, give a lot of unsolicited advice, argue with anyone who doesn't agree, and then leave without doing a bit or work
<mhall119> I wanted to clarify that you were indeed doing work, not just spouting off
<LaserJock> we do get a *lot* of that
<LaserJock> or people who do all that and then screw around with stuff for a week or two and then leave everything in a mess
<ace_suares> I can understand that very well. I think when you would use launchpad better - especially the mentoring which I discoverd just today - then it would be easier to keep control and seperate the crazies from the workers !
<LaserJock> right
<LaserJock> we've never used the mentoring
<LaserJock> Ubuntu doesn't really use it
<ace_suares> to be honest - i hadn't planned on workin more then a week full time on it - but the lack of 'low hanging fruit' go me into it deeper.
<LaserJock> it's mostly considered a failed Launchpad feature
<ace_suares> really? oh that's too bad.
<Ahmuck> mentoring doesn't work without a mentor
<LaserJock> right
<ace_suares> I think it should have been a great social structure
<LaserJock> and for Launchpad
<ace_suares> of course you need mentors :-)
<Ahmuck> however google seems to pull it off, perhaps because of the "cash"
<LaserJock> it takes as much time, if not more, to do the whole mentoring thing as to just fix the darn thing
<LaserJock> well, I didn't say *mentoring* doesn't work
<LaserJock> I said Launchpad's mentoring feature
<ace_suares> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/401474
<LaserJock> Ubuntu does quite a bit of mentoring
<LaserJock> Ahmuck: I think Edubuntu developers are just a bit frustrated, perhaps that comes off as a "wet blanket" but hopefully if people start stepping up that frustration will be alleviated
<ace_suares> I think your mail form last night LJ, about how we want to do the redirects and the proposal for removal, is an excellent case for mentoring. Define a couple of tasks (in a spec? in bugs?) and then try to find people trough the mailng list to do those tasks... what do you think? Rather without the LP mentoring feature?
<LaserJock> yes
<ace_suares> LaserJock: people will not step up if they are met with a certain attitude
<LaserJock> I suppose
<LaserJock> but since they didn't step up any way I guess some of us are just a bit jaded
<ace_suares> what.. nobody ever steppe dup ?
<ace_suares> stepped up???
<LaserJock> I asked for help for 2 years and got next to nothing
<LaserJock> I put off my PhD because of it
<ace_suares> LaserJock: well how did you ask for help do you think that could be part of the problem ? Just asking!
<LaserJock> I asked on IRC, on Planet Ubuntu, on the mailing lists
<LaserJock> I asked everywhere I could
<ace_suares> LaserJock: ohh hat's bad. well i am putting of the quotes i was supposed to make today and a project that gives immediate cash. BAD. BAD ACE. SILLY MAN.
<LaserJock> I laid out specific things that could be done
<Ahmuck> let's say 3 people had been mentored over the last 3 releases, 8.04 - 9.04 ... which i've been with edubuntu since.  you would have gained 3 more devs and would have 6 rather than 3 todsy
<ace_suares> I'd love to see the specific things you needed to be done. Of course if it's coding i can't help.
<LaserJock> I sent an email saying exactly what things needed to be done for Jaunty's release
<ace_suares> was it all coding requests?
<LaserJock> and I got *0* response
<LaserJock> no
<LaserJock> it was docs, website, and packaging
<LaserJock> all minimal activities
<Ahmuck> e-mails are temporail
<LaserJock> Ahmuck: right, I agree would be nice to have had 3 people to mentor
<ace_suares> You know, I shouldnt' say this, but I jumped in and I want to see this trough. At least till the website and the wiki are cleaned up. I really *need* the docs sometimes so it's very much in my benefit. It's just a huge amount of time. BHut I will try now to see this trough.
<LaserJock> we also need people willing to learn
<ace_suares> I think three people showed interest in helping. I want to try do the LP mentroing thing and se eif i can catch them to really help.
<ace_suares> and as a matte rof fact, uptill now I like your mentoring LaserJock :-)
<LaserJock> one of the frustrations I've had in Edubuntu is that potential contributors seem to be very demanding in Edubuntu compared to Ubuntu as a whole
<ace_suares> You need to help me on the mentoring in LP though LaserJock
<LaserJock> Edubuntu gets a lot of demands and a lot of "this is what you're doing wrong"
<Ahmuck> edubuntu has a void
<Ahmuck> which may be causing your demading
<ace_suares> well, tyou're working with teachers. Have ever met a teacher who wants to learn from someone else? No offense, teachers!
<LaserJock> the fundamental problem though is not knowing what to do
<LaserJock> I can tell you exactly what needs to be done, etc.
<Ahmuck> btw, is your phd done?
<LaserJock> it's written
<LaserJock> I defend Thursday
<Ahmuck> you need to be concentrating on defending imho
<LaserJock> well, there is that
<LaserJock> but I hate seeing things as they are
<Ahmuck> it'll be easy to get to things as they are after thursday
<Ahmuck> trust me, it won't fall apart
<ace_suares> LaserJock: lets work together on getting a list of easy tasks and then lets work together on have people do that stuff. I can mentor wiki changes. Lets also take one step back and do this during one whole month and see where we are come september.
<ace_suares> Ahmuck is right it wont fall any more apart :-)
<LaserJock> ok, I can put a list of things together
<LaserJock> but people need to trust me and respond, you know
<LaserJock> I know things would be much better if I had time to actually be active with getting these things done
<LaserJock> and hopefully my new job will allow some of that
<LaserJock> but if people can just trust me for a bit I swear we can turn this around
<ace_suares> are you saying i don't trust you and dont' respond to you?
<LaserJock> ace_suares: you've done more in the last week than anybody else has done in 2 years
<ace_suares> LaserJock: and then some, I am involved in ltsp/eduntu since 2005 it's about time that I did something worthwile
<LaserJock> so I hope you're just the beginning, but you can hopefully understand my frustration
<LaserJock> and I know that other people have *wanted* to help
<ace_suares> but I never knew what to do exactly and even now it's hard to find it out.
<LaserJock> I'm not trying to put other people down
<LaserJock> and I know a lot of people do excellent support work
<LaserJock> but I really need signification technical contribution
<ace_suares> i could have done a lto more if i knew what to be done now i was figuring out things along the way that's more work and  goes slower.
<LaserJock> I need people who are willing to do packaging work
<ace_suares> LaserJock: well i can't help you with packaging before the wiki cleanup is completed
<ace_suares> I learnd packaging though, the very basic of it
<LaserJock> if a person are able to do that then everything else comes fairly natural
<ace_suares> and i can promise to help you on
<ace_suares> - help define the stuff in LP mentoring
<LaserJock> people have this concept that a "developer" is some sort of uber coder
<ace_suares> - do the actual work when the website and wiki are done
<ace_suares> LaserJock: well that's how some of them try to come off, anyway :-(
<LaserJock> an OS developer is far from that
<LaserJock> I'm a chemist
<LaserJock> I've never taken a computer course in my life
<ace_suares> I am a generalist
<LaserJock> I just learned by getting in there and doing
<ace_suares> heh i code since i am 15
<ace_suares> but coding gets in the way of my social life
<ace_suares> so i don't do it full time
<ace_suares> and i don't do static type languages
<LaserJock> so my point is if *I* can do it then I think a lot of people can
<ace_suares> just ruby (on rails) and PHP and a little bash
<LaserJock> and we just need to figure out how to excite them and enable them to do it
<ace_suares> LaserJock: I am very sorry, I am just concerned about the docs right now and I don't have much ears for the other problems
<ace_suares> i hope you can understand that and work with that
<LaserJock> well
<ace_suares> I can do packaging too, in a couple of months
<LaserJock> as long as there are other people who are concerned I certainly don't care one bit
<ace_suares> and if we can make the overall structure more clear and define short term goals for new recruits 9develoers too) we might win some.
<LaserJock> people are welcome to work on areas that they want
<LaserJock> the wiki certainly needs help
<ace_suares> i thin ka good wiki will make it easier for new devleopers to join too.
<LaserJock> but I'm hoping we can get a few people into the more technical bit
<ace_suares> LaserJock: don't you understand you are making me feel less wanted ?
<LaserJock> am I?
<LaserJock> seriously?
<ace_suares> yes... consider the following line on the wiki... wait...
<ace_suares> Even if you can't program software, there are many ways to get involved with the Edubuntu project, whether it's documentation, testing, packaging, artwork, or reviewing of material.
<LaserJock> right
<ace_suares> (from https://wiki.edubuntu.org/Edubuntu/Community/GetInvolved)
<ace_suares> what do you think that message relays to people like me ?
<LaserJock> that people are welcome to get involved
<LaserJock> I just don't understand why you would feel less wanted
<LaserJock> I said "the wiki certainly needs help"
<ace_suares> no. it says well, we 'd rather talk to developers who can code, then you, but even if you can't code, we'll have some unimprtant jpob for you where we can't really care about much
<ace_suares> LaserJock: this is nothing personal ! I am trying to bend the way the 'community' looks at devs and non-devs
<LaserJock> good grief, that's not what it says
<LaserJock> it's addressing a specific thing that Ubuntu has often found
<ace_suares> well, that's what people certainly can read
<LaserJock> that you have to be a coder to contribute
<ace_suares> It's non-neutral.
<LaserJock> that statement *specifically* to contradict that notion
<ace_suares> It states that the 'normal' way is to be a coder and EVEN it that's not you you still can help
<ace_suares> well let's not discuss it further, i KNOW it was ment to be a good statement but it's not.
<ace_suares> It owuld e like saying even if you are a women you can still buy a toyota
<ace_suares> it's all perception!
<ace_suares> I think the deubuntu community has to become very carefull about what message it sends
<ace_suares> that's my point
<LaserJock> yes
<ace_suares> that's why i tried to change the wording on the new wiki homepage to be more neutral to the status of dev's . I don't know it that works, it needs review
<LaserJock> but frankly
<LaserJock> I don't know how much people actually read this stuff
<ace_suares> well i read it
<ace_suares> isn't that enough?
<LaserJock> sure, sure
<ace_suares> you are aiming at like 3 new devs and 3 people that do other stuff in the next 3 months?
<LaserJock> it's just easy for me to get a bit frustrated when there are *very* important issues that aren't being addressed
<LaserJock> and we're debating wording
<LaserJock> I know the issues are real issues
<ace_suares> there you are doing it again.
<ace_suares> i personally can understand you frustrations
<LaserJock> do you realize we are very close to not having a release at all?!
<ace_suares> but what can i do about it?
<ace_suares> no i didn't realize that
<ace_suares> but how can i help to change that
<LaserJock> well, we need people willing to dig into packaging, bug triaging, and seed management
<ace_suares> the only thin i think i can do is try to make the wiki and website better and help with getting more poeple involved albeit in the 'other' department
<LaserJock> ok, and that's OK
<ace_suares> like i said LaserJock lets setup these tasks in LP this week or the next and make sure we can mentor people into it so that if someone comes alon, the can start woking right away!
<ace_suares> instead of slowly finding out what the hell it is all about
<LaserJock> I don't mind you working on wiki and website, we *do* need that
<LaserJock> but it's not super high priority for me
<ace_suares> okay okay
<LaserJock> so I'm not trying to dissuade you from your work
<ace_suares> so if  there is no one of the core members for who it's a high priority
<ace_suares> who will guide me then? No one?
<ace_suares> I'd better leave now then if the porospects are that bleak :-(
<LaserJock> well, that is a very difficult part of this
<LaserJock> we've known for a while that the problem with growing the community is that we have to have a community to grow it with
<LaserJock> in order to do mentoring we need to have mentors
<ace_suares> well YOu need to be the mentors there are no others
<LaserJock> so initially we need to have some pretty self-directed people
<LaserJock> that aren't going to need a ton of mentoring
<ace_suares> ha ha
<Ahmuck> i feel the same way
<ace_suares> so I work my butt of for a new structure proposal, very self directed
<LaserJock> yep
<ace_suares> and the ogra says dont touch the specs
<LaserJock> well
<ace_suares> and you say hey all the links should point outwards
<LaserJock> here's my advice
<ace_suares> and stuff
<LaserJock> self-directed doesn't mean without discussion and advice
<Ahmuck> i've done source building, and creating debs from checkinstall, but as i recall, ubuntu packaging is a rather contovlvultued process
<ace_suares> yeah but who'll give advice if you don't
<LaserJock> I can give advice
<ace_suares> in fact that makes you a mentor
<ace_suares> doent it?
<LaserJock> but I can't be here 24x7 advising *after* the fact
<ace_suares> and why not?
<ace_suares> it's just a proposal
<ace_suares> you can move things around after it is proposed
<ace_suares> thats the goal of a proposal isn't it?
<LaserJock> ok, well, frankly because we don't need a proposal so much
<LaserJock> we need people to implement know things moreso
<LaserJock> again, *not* that proposals are bad
<ace_suares> implement as in coding?
<LaserJock> no
<ace_suares> or packaging?
<LaserJock> no
<LaserJock> as in writing content, deleting pages, etc.
<ace_suares> omg
<ace_suares> I am glad you wrote up that email yesterday
<ace_suares> that's a good start
<ace_suares> i rest my case for now
<LaserJock> it's just that I'm going to be a bit slow
<LaserJock> I'm in the middle of finish my PhD, moving across the US, starting a new job, selling a house
<ace_suares> becasue you and I disagree that you need a good new structure before you can really move and delete
<ace_suares> Hey it's okay to be slow
<LaserJock> and my grandfather is in the hospital with terminal cancer at the moment
<ace_suares> I ma not going to keep up that pace
<LaserJock> I'm trying to do the best I can, but I'm a bit delayed right now
<ace_suares> It's okay to be slow
<ace_suares> as long as you say just those things that need saying
<ace_suares> which you do
<ace_suares> obviously
<LaserJock> what I think it would have been a bit less frustrating if you'd asked about like the specs and links *first*
<ace_suares> sorry about your grandfather
<ace_suares> but what did i do with the specs?
<LaserJock> I realize you probably didn't know
<ace_suares> what did i do wrong
<ace_suares> no i knew nothing
<LaserJock> I don't know what you did, you may not have done anything
<ace_suares> i fixed 4 specs
<ace_suares> i added CategoryEdubuntuSpec which is usefull to me
<LaserJock> the issue is that people will often just "cleanup" by deleting or moving specs
<LaserJock> and that breaks things
<ace_suares> oh man
<ace_suares> i'd never do that
<LaserJock> so ogra was just probably trying to make sure you didn't as it's been done before
<ace_suares> i put two of them in proposed for removal
<ace_suares> and ogra read that and expained that they should not be removed and so the system works!
<LaserJock> yep
<LaserJock> so as long as you don't get discouraged by that we're all good
<LaserJock> you've learned a lot
<ace_suares> i didn't delete i just put them in proposed for removel
<LaserJock> you've done a lot
<ace_suares> becasue that is the system
<LaserJock> and we're all better for it
<ace_suares> first flag them and let the knowers decide
<ace_suares> that's the procedure that can work
<ace_suares> like we discussed yesterday
<LaserJock> yep
<ace_suares> so we are good
<ace_suares> there shoud be no fear on your side
<ace_suares> that i will break things
<ace_suares> and if i break something by accident
<ace_suares> you cna revert easily can't you (can you revert deletions?)
<LaserJock> I think we can revert everything
<ace_suares> so even if i make an accident you, we can fix it
<LaserJock> yep
<ace_suares> so no fears then
<Ahmuck> LJ, u need to concentrate on your dissert, and your new job imho
<Ahmuck> anywho, i'm out for the afternoon.
<Ahmuck> ace_suares: i followed the wiki links you gave, and that thing looks scary
<Ahmuck> it's a mile long
<Ahmuck> i'm not sure how to contribute to the wiki
<Ahmuck> am i disconnected again?
<Ahmuck> syn
<LaserJock> well
<ace_suares> Ahmuck: ?
<ace_suares> bye for now!
<dgroos1> Hi All
<dgroos1> I'm trying to install CmapTools, an app that is critical in my classroom, as a localapp--if run on the server just 2-3 people using it overwhelms the server.
<dgroos1> I can't figure how to install it on the chroot as it uses a graphical install--any ideas?
<gavinmc> i gather it doesn't work to just chroot into it with DISPLAY set?
<dgroos1> can you translate that to newbie-speak? :)
<gavinmc> ah, sorry.
<gavinmc> If you run something like "sudo chroot /opt/ltsp/i386" (or wherever your chroot is based)
<gavinmc> and run it what happens?
<gavinmc> you probably need to copy the file into the chroot before you do that.
<gavinmc> should i explain what chroot does?
<dgroos1> I get the prompt: root@gcos2:/#
<dgroos1> That would be great!
<gavinmc> chroot is short for CHange ROOT
<gavinmc> if you chroot to a particular directory, you get a shell which sees that directory as / and cannot see anything outside that directory
<gavinmc> that's what you've done.
<gavinmc> (exit will get you out of it)
<dgroos1> Ok... so then it would see the /opt... as the new root?
<gavinmc> you (hopefully) can now run the installer in the chrooted environment.
<gavinmc> exactly
<dgroos1> and the DISPLAY you mentioned earlier is to get an xterminal?
<dgroos1> or something...
<gavinmc> DISPLAY is an "environment variable"
<Ahmuck> dgroos1: there is a section in the ltsp manual on chroot iirc http://www.ltsp.org/~sbalneav/LTSPManual.html#chroot
<gavinmc> it's a setting for the shell and tells graphical commands what display to send their windows to
<dgroos1> Ahmuck--I'll be reading it, thanks!
<gavinmc> you can see it with "echo $DISPLAY"
<gavinmc> you might but might not need to set it after running the chroot command
<Ahmuck> dgroos1: moreever, after reading chroot, there is also a section on local apps.  for setting the local apps up.  i assume you've done this already
<dgroos1> :) w/the echo command I got this response :0.0
<Ahmuck> http://www.ltsp.org/~sbalneav/LTSPManual.html#chroot
<gavinmc> that means your sitting locally at the server.
<Ahmuck> u actually need to enable localapps in your lts.conf file
<dgroos1> Ahmuck: I've googled and read everything I can find/understand on localapps for days...
<gavinmc> have you managed to set up any localapp (eg firefox)?
<dgroos1> Ahmuck: right, the manual I do need to read that.
<Ahmuck> the ltsp manual reading is essential to understanding how ltsp works.  it takes about an hour for me to read through it.
<dgroos1> gavinmc: yes, I'm sitting at the server.  I have set up localapps and they are working (actually a volunteer has helped do that)
<Ahmuck> it's an old saying but in this case it's fairly true
<gavinmc> setting up an ltsp app usually (I think) involves running apt-get install ... within a chroot.
<dgroos1> however, he hasn't been able to get the NAT working so can't use Firefox on the thin clients yet.
<gavinmc> what you'll need to do is run your GUI installer within the chroot instead of the apt command
<gavinmc> did you go through the steps in the wiki?
<gavinmc> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/ThinClientHowtoNAT/
<gavinmc> (for NAT that is)
<dgroos1> gavinmc: when you say: "what you'll need to do is run your GUI installer within the chroot instead of the apt command" do you mean that I need to run a command to start the... I think I get it.  I'll try it in a few moments and get back!  Thanks!
<gavinmc> What I'd try is:
<dgroos1> And, yes he used that page as the basis of his work and considered using ace's alternative solution though with the cautions at the end decided against it.
<gavinmc> 1. copy the installer file into the chroot. make sure it's executable (chmod +x <filename>)
<gavinmc> 2.
<gavinmc> 2. chroot /opt/ltsp.......
<gavinmc> 3. ./<installerfile>
<gavinmc> there are various reasons that might not work, but it's the first thing to try
<gavinmc> as regards the NAT, I'd like to spend a few minutes debugging if you have time.
<gavinmc> I want that NAT howto to be utterly watertight
<Ahmuck> gavinmc: i'd be interested in de-bugging that with you
<Ahmuck> i've tried local apps and am failing
<Ahmuck> when i start firefox, i get 404
<dgroos1> gavinmc: "I want that NAT howto to be utterly watertight" Cool--I appreciate that attention to quality as it makes someone who is barely beyond the cookbook application of knowledge, successful.
<dgroos1> gavinmc: let me try to apply what you've taught me/told me first then I'll be back--will that work?  will you still be around?
<Ahmuck> that's my same question.  i can get myself to the computer lab if  your going to be around today
<gavinmc> I'm going to bed now I'm afraid. However, we could do it via email
<gavinmc> my email is gmccullagh _at_ gmail _dot_ com
<dgroos1> :) not 5:17 in the afternoon where you are :)
 * Ahmuck hates gmail
<gavinmc> better yet, could you email it to edubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com
<dgroos1> Shall I/we put it on the list serve to provide a resource for others?
<dgroos1> right.
<gavinmc> I'm not really very irc-clued so I'll trust your judgement on that one
<gavinmc> ahmuck: do you hate it so much you won't send email to it?
<Ahmuck> i'll send to edubuntu-users
<Ahmuck> gavinmc: almost
<dgroos1> actually, I asked if we oughtn't send it to edubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com or was implying that anyway.
<gavinmc> Basically, if either/both of you can mail that list with a descriptive subject like "nat howto didn't work"
<gavinmc> and include the output of each "test" that would be a good start
<gavinmc> ahmuck: :-)
<dgroos1> test?
<gavinmc> on the wiki page there are tests beside several of the steps
<dgroos1> Will do.  And thanks for your help, gavinmc.
<gavinmc> I can stay up a little longer if one of you can get to a server now?
<Ahmuck> 15 min for me, but i do think i'll take it to the list
<dgroos1> I can test it now... I'll try.
<gavinmc> that'd be great.
<gavinmc> I've obviously missed some trap somewhere that you guys are falling into
<Ahmuck> my server works with ltsp, but it worked automagically.  i've not natted, but couldn't get firefox to work with ltsp
<Ahmuck> in chroot/localapps
<Ahmuck> if nat is that solution, i'll need to fix that
<gavinmc> so, you have firefox running as a localapp, but it can't see webpages?
<Ahmuck> yes
<gavinmc> right. nat is probably what  you need.
<Ahmuck> ah ... for some reason reading the ltsp manual, i did not notice that i needed nat for things to work, i'll review it again, i'm sure i missed it there
<gavinmc> basically, if a standard thin client runs firefox, firefox runs on the ltsp server so it can connect to anything the ltsp server can
<gavinmc> if firefox is running as a localapp, it can connect to anything the thin client itself can connect to.
<dgroos1> Ahmuck: that info was VERY recently added to the jaunty localapps page at the bottom, I believe.
<gavinmc> if you have a 2-interface server, your thin clients probably need to connect through the ltsp server and it needs to be told how to "NAT" them
<gavinmc> dgroos1: by me, two days ago.
<Ahmuck> k, that make sense
<Ahmuck> running firefox as a localapp will help me greatly
<gavinmc> if you haven't tried already, the steps here should hopefully get you there https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/ThinClientHowtoNAT/
<gavinmc> feedback on this page is greatly appreciated
<dgroos1> gavinmc: I'll give fine-tooth reactions on that page--my first is, in the practical instructions section, step 1, provide directions on how to see if the thin client can reach the internet.  I just tried: "ping google.com" and it worked, I don't think I would have known to do this 2 months ago, however...
<gavinmc> okay, i xpected people to just open a web browser, but i can state that explicitly.
<dgroos1> Hmmm... I guess I misunderstood then, I thought one uses this page when firefox on the thin client can't access the web?
<dgroos1> OH--I got it, 'standard thin client' not as localapp!
<dgroos1> But... if a person just installed firefox as a localapp, I'm not sure how I could run firefox in standard mode w/out undoing what was done in the localapps setup page... right?
<gavinmc> I'm not certain how localapps are done at this point, i need to check the manual
<dgroos1> well, if using Terminal and ping google.com is an acceptable test, that would be easiest...
<dgroos1> Now, on to step 2 in the practical instructions area...
<gavinmc> it's not a bad test, but it's not quite precise enough
<gavinmc> Instead, just use firefox sitting at the server itself.
<gavinmc> that's the test we really want, to make sure the server can connect.
<dgroos1> OK right--that is kind of the same thing I guess.  OK--passed test 1.
<dgroos1> OK, step 2... I see ip addresses all over the place, on both NIC's with ifconfig, on my router I've got different ip's  is there a command/description that will lead me to know the ip I need?
<gavinmc> ifconfig will show you a stanza for each network interface
<gavinmc> do i presume you have two network connections in your server?
<dgroos1> yes indeed
<gavinmc> okay, so they'll be called eth0 and eth1 (more than likely).
<dgroos1> yes
<Ahmuck> eth0, eth149 here
<gavinmc> ahmuck: that's a little wierd, but okay.
<gavinmc> what's the ip address of your main router?
<dgroos1> What's the best way to find out?
<Ahmuck> gavinmc: i've got an nvidia bug.  it recreated one of the interfaces on every boot
<gavinmc> ahmuck: ouch. that's nasty.
<gavinmc> dgroos1: run route -n on the ltsp server
<gavinmc> an look at the line that says 0.0.0.0
<gavinmc> the gateway column tells you that.
<gavinmc> tells you the ip address of your router i mean
<dgroos1> it says: 192.168.3.1
<gavinmc> right. so what are the ip addresses of you server?
<gavinmc> from ifconfig
<dgroos1> 192.168.0.254 and 192.168.3.72
<dgroos1> eth0 and eth1 respectively
<gavinmc> okay, the second one is the one on the main network. the first is the address of the card facing your thin clients. can you see how I tell that?
<dgroos1> yes, thanks for asking!
<gavinmc> so, in step2, what you're doing is telling the thin clients to connect to the internet through the ltsp server (192.168.0.254 to them).
<gavinmc> My test is a little ambiguous on reflection. I need to think about it for a minute
<gavinmc> LTSP used to have more black and white local apps, which were simpler to deal with. You were either running ALL local apps or ALL on the server. This isn't true any more
<dgroos1> Is there any reason to not run all apps as local apps?
<mhall119> dgroos1: thin clients are supposed to be thin
<dgroos1> Thus Nubae's fat solution? :)
 * mhall119 wasn't here for most of this conversation
<dgroos1> So, still, why be surgical about it, why not run all apps?
#edubuntu 2010-07-26
<Nyha> Does Eduuntu have some admin tool for the teacher to view students desktop?
<mhall119> italc
<mhall119> but you're not here anymore...
<Nyha> Does Eduuntu have some admin tool for the teacher to view students desktop?
<highvoltage> Nyha: there's a tool called iTalc that can be used for that
<Nyha> I'll look in to that, thanks.
<Nyha> highvoltage: do you know any others to compare with?
<highvoltage> Nyha: none that I can think of, but if you hang around some other people may have some more suggestions :)
<alkisg> Nyha: are your clients normal edubuntu workstations or are they thin clients (LTSP)?
<alkisg> Anyway, there's also controlaula for normal workstations if you want to compare, but personally I wouldn't even install it because it doesn't get cleanly uninstalled. Some people use it though.
<alkisg> And there's also http://wiki.tcosproject.org/Utils/TcosMonitor but I haven't tried it
<alkisg> (i'm not sure if it runs outside of the tcos project)
<Nyha> alkisg: Im working on building a workstation network and later a thin client, if I can get any here in South Africa ;)
<alkisg> Nyha: well if you want to try the others go ahead, but your best bet is italc
<Nyha> alkisg: Shu, I'll have a look at them all.
<Nyha> alkisg: TcosMontiro use iTalc to remote view... :P
<alkisg> Nyha: it can use either italc or vnc
<alkisg> ...and, italc uses libx11vnc :)
<Nyha> :P
<alkisg> So they're all vnc inside...
<Nyha> and is this secure?
<alkisg> italc is. But of course security comes with a speed/cpu price.
<alkisg> My only problem with italc is that it's barely maintained anymore... last release was years ago, I hope the advertised 2.0 version will come later on this year or at least in 2011.
<alkisg> (so if it works for you, fine, if it crashes etc don't expect any fixes soon :))
<Nyha> alkisg: ah :P
 * alkisg had to create his own tools for classroom management - unfortunately not ready for international use yet.
<Nyha> Okey?
<Nyha> Scripted using other apps?
<alkisg> Yes, but put a lot of pygtk in the mix too.
<alkisg> +twisted for the networking backend
<Nyha> okey :P
<Nyha> So its a gui tool
<alkisg> http://wiki.ubuntu-gr.org/sch-scripts/screenshots
<alkisg> In 2 years, if italc 2.0 isn't ready yet, I'll try to push it in the ubuntu repositories :)
<alkisg> So for now, go for italc and hope it works fine for you :)
<Nyha> Ah elinika...
<alkisg> Nyha: ? can you speak greek?!
<Nyha> ligo
<alkisg> Wraios!! :)
<Nyha> I spent two years in tesaloniki and in rodos on rodos..
<Nyha> and two mounth in kalamata.
<alkisg> Wow, you've been all around Greece!
<Nyha> Ofc.
<Nyha> :P
<Nyha> So you use this litle app as a teacher or as a it-cafe admin?
<alkisg> We use it in almost all of the schools in greece that use ubuntu - as teachers ,yeah
<Nyha> Cool, it looks like something I'd like to try, Im working on a project in cape town to build Ubuntu-based (ubuntu is Xhosa and Zulu language) computer arias for kids groing up with nothin in the townships..
<Nyha> s/arias/areas
<alkisg> Sounds good. Take a look at LTSP thin+fat clients too, they're much easier to maintain than standalone labs.
<Nyha> alkisg: Ye, at the moment I have 20 "normal" workstations, so this is what I'll start with, than I'll try to find a way to get thin clients for expanding. :P
<alkisg> I'm booting all the normal workstations as fat clients, it's much faster this way, and much easier to maintain.
<alkisg> (we don't have actual thin clients in any greek schools - only old + new PCs used as thin/fat clients)
<Nyha> I have found one problem so far, the workstations bios does not support network booting..
<alkisg> That's not a problem, we put gpxe in the windows or linux boot manager
<alkisg> Anyway, time to get some work done, bbl.
<Nyha> alkisg: thanks for the help :P
<alkisg> np - good luck
<KE1HA> Is APT-PROXY the best approach for managing applicaiton versions & policy changes on a school LAN/WAN ?
#edubuntu 2010-07-28
<dgroos> Looks like no meeting today?
<highvoltage> eek, I still need to get used to it being in the afternoon and not at night
<mhall119> how's canada?
<highvoltage> I guess much the same. spending most of the day in front of your computer is probably the same no matter what country you're in :)
<highvoltage> getting used to driving on the other side of the road is a bit of a challenge but it turned out not to be so bad
#edubuntu 2010-07-29
<bencrisford-E63> !info scribus
<ubottu> scribus (source: scribus): Open Source Desktop Page Layout. In component main, is optional. Version 1.3.3.13.dfsg~svn20081228-2ubuntu2 (lucid), package size 9380 kB, installed size 26900 kB
<mhall119> woot! UDS-N in Orlando!
<mhall119> highvoltage: you gonna be there?
<mhall119> stgraber: same ^^ ?
#edubuntu 2010-07-30
<highvoltage> mhall119: probably!
#edubuntu 2010-07-31
<gnoob> Hi guys, Im a admin at a school tired of windoze in the computerlab and Im considering switching to edubuntu.   Wine will have problems running in edubuntu on a thin client I guess? We use autocad and photoshop there (sadly).. I love gimp so Ill try to convince the principal and the teachers that gimp is just as good.. but autocad?
<gnoob> Running autocad from wine ist a good idea I guess??  I better look for gpl alternatives I guess?  anyone knows?
<pleia2> I don't actually know of any good open source CAD software for linux
<pleia2> might try running it in wine, whether it'll run ok over a thin client depends on your server, network and the clients themselves
<gnoob> ok, I wonder how wine handle multiuser system though, if it loads the whole program x numer of times, or only once + users.  But Ill give it a try I think  in a test environment ofcourse :)
<gnoob> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/LTSPQuickInstall   To follow this howto I need to install from lucid lynx's alternate cd? Said anything about Hardy there.. but thats only for knowing the history I guess? :)
<ball> hello alkisg
<alkisg> Hello
<alkisg> !info tuxpaint
<ubottu> tuxpaint (source: tuxpaint): A paint program for young children. In component universe, is optional. Version 1:0.9.21-1ubuntu1 (lucid), package size 172 kB, installed size 408 kB
<alkisg> highvoltage, the "missing translations" problem of tuxpaint (due to the universe demotion, LP #503919) also affects tuxtype, can we somehow reupload them? Is an SRU needed?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 503919 in Baltix "Translations missing in tuxpaint-data Ubuntu 10.04 package" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/503919
<alkisg> If I remember correctly, you told me not to upload them to the edubuntu stable ppa, because we'd solve it with a more proper method..
<highvoltage> alkisg: hey!
<highvoltage> alkisg: opening that bug report and taking a look...
<alkisg> Hey man, what's up?
 * alkisg uploaded tuxtype to his ppa, but needs 3 days to build :)
<highvoltage> yeah, ppa building has been terribly slow this week
<highvoltage> I guess a good start would be to copy it to the edubuntu ppa once it's tested, I haven't looked into it yet so I don't know exactly what has to be done yet, at a guess so far it sounds like something that could perhaps be sru'd
<alkisg> Just a reuploading, nothing more
<highvoltage> ah, I see
<alkisg> It was first build while it was in main, so translations were stripped
<alkisg> (supposedly put in the langpacks)
<alkisg> But then it was demoted to universe, so it ended up without the .mo files anywhere
<alkisg> So a dummy version bump or something like that would suffice
<alkisg> But I don't know who needs to sponsor this, if it can go to lucid-updates, if it needs an SRU etc etc
<alkisg> It's been on my ppa for months, it's tested, it's fine
<alkisg> (I didn't test tuxtyping yet, but I believe it has the same problem)
<highvoltage> we have to follow the procedure that's listed on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates
<highvoltage> it may be seen as not quite serious enough, but it is quite low risk so I would think that the SRU request will probably be approved
<alkisg> "Upload the fixed package to release-proposed with the patch in the bug report" ==> who has rights to upload there?
<highvoltage> I do
<highvoltage> you do too :)
<highvoltage> you're part of the Edubuntu Council, which is a member of Edubuntu Developers, and Edubuntu Developers can upload the Edubuntu packages
<alkisg> Ugh, seems like I need to read up on all that :)
<highvoltage> won't take you long to figure out, uploading to -proposed is the same as uploading to a PPA, but you need to file that SRU bug first and get it acked by someone in the release team
<alkisg> So a new bug needs to be filed? Or should we reuse the existing bug report?
<highvoltage> new bug
<stgraber> mhall119: yep, I should be there.
<mhall119> awesome
<mhall119> it'll be an hour from my house
<highvoltage> alkisg: and then subscribe ubuntu-release when it's ready
<highvoltage> ohi stgraber
<alkisg> highvoltage: hmm ok, after that meeting I got the impression you would be doing that, but I guess I can try it as soon as I get some free time to read all that stuff :)
<highvoltage> alkisg: ouch, if I said I would, I will. I just seemed to have lost track of that to-do list item then
<alkisg> np - I already have that on the greek schools ppa so I don't actually have need for it - so it may be a good chance for me to learn how to apply for an SRU
<alkisg> (i'll be visiting NY for 2 weeks, so probably when i get back...)
<highvoltage> alkisg: I'll upload it to maverick so long, that will at least take care of the first step as listed in the procedure
<alkisg> highvoltage: the maverick package is ok
<alkisg> It was uploaded while tuxpaint was already in universe
<alkisg> It's not a packaging problem, launchpad did this...
<highvoltage> ok, in that case the bug should be marked as fixed
<alkisg> ...unless we file a bug on launchpad instead
<alkisg> That one isn't fixed, it still messes translations up, when demotions from main to universe happen :)
<highvoltage> alkisg: yep, certainly sounds like a bug needs to be filed against LP there
#edubuntu 2010-08-01
<stefandebacker> does anyone has experience with fat clients on edubuntu?
<alkisg> stefandebacker: yes, any problems?
<stefandebacker> not yet, i was just wondering if it works ok. Now I use self made thin clients (pentium 1 an 2 with 16 - 32 mb ram and no hard disk) with ubuntu
<alkisg> Well, for LTSP thin client you'll need at least 64MB ram
<stefandebacker> but because i read that multimedia works on fat clients, i was wondering
<alkisg> And for fat clients, probably more than 500 MB
<alkisg> (how are you even booting those thin clients? with windows 95?!)
<stefandebacker> nog linux
<stefandebacker> with a floppy :-D
<stefandebacker> I really works quiet well
<alkisg> which linux?
<stefandebacker> hum, i have to check, its something i downloaded specially for turning a old pc into a thin client
<alkisg> please do, I wonder what can still be used with 16mb except for deli linux
<stefandebacker> well this works for sure, I use it at a school
<stefandebacker> I have a quad core with 4 GB RAM and 500 GB hard disk as server
<alkisg> ok, if it's easy, please check and tell me which distro that is
<stefandebacker> and then the thin clients are all old pc's with only a videocard, floppy and network
<stefandebacker> booting from this diskette
<stefandebacker> we tested it with 40 clients, and it still works quiet well
<stefandebacker> of course not for youtube, but firefox and openoffice are much better than with windows 98se on these machines
<stefandebacker> but do you have experience with fat clients?
<alkisg> Yes
<alkisg> They work fine, like if they had local ubuntu
<alkisg> And with gigabit network they're even faster
<alkisg> E.g. a lab of mine boots in 13 secs as fat clients, and in 50 normally
<stefandebacker> so you install a local ubuntu on it
<alkisg> No, I had that from before installing fat clients, and I'm just doing a comparison
<alkisg> They don't need to have local disks
<stefandebacker> ah
<stefandebacker> that's what i want
<stefandebacker> and does youtube work?
<alkisg> Youtube , google earth, games etc everything runs localy
<alkisg> So, like if they were running locally (because that's what they do) :)
<stefandebacker> but without hard disk
<alkisg> Yes
<alkisg> Fat clients == a networked disk and also authentication on the ltsp server, nothing more
<stefandebacker> wich version of edubuntu do you use?
<alkisg> ubuntu 10.04 on the server, and usually edubuntu 10.04 on the client disk
<alkisg> (the virtual disk, the chroot, one for all clients)
<stefandebacker> ah
<stefandebacker> tried that, but that wouldn't work with old hardware
<alkisg> Yes, fat clients == new hardware
<alkisg> Otherwise it's not so fat :)
<stefandebacker> it did with new hardware, but not with old thin clients
<alkisg> I'm using mixed labs
<stefandebacker> 2 servers?
<alkisg> Everything with < 300 mb ram boots as thin, and with > 300 mb ram as fat
<alkisg> No, on the same server, with the same chroot
<stefandebacker> that's my plan to
<stefandebacker> hum
<alkisg> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/FatClients
<alkisg> That should get you started, and ask whatever you can't get to work there
<stefandebacker> what is your oldest thin client?
<alkisg> AMD K6 300 MHz
<stefandebacker> i found the diskette. Its http://www.rom-o-matic.net
<alkisg> stefandebacker: that isn't a linux version
<stefandebacker> there you can download the image for your network card
<stefandebacker> no?
<alkisg> No. I already use that.
<alkisg> You can't boot 16 MB clients with current ubuntu versions
<alkisg> Not even 32MB clients
<stefandebacker> not with current
<alkisg> gpxe (that in rom-o-matic) is just a network boot loader
<stefandebacker> I had to use 7.10
<alkisg> It's not an OS
<alkisg> I don't think 7.10 works with 16 RAM either
<stefandebacker> it does
<alkisg> If I remember correctly, 64MB were needed back then too.
<stefandebacker> it works here
<alkisg> Maybe your clients have 64MB RAM?
<stefandebacker> no
<stefandebacker> clients 16 - 32 mb
<alkisg> Are you using LTSP with 7.10?
<stefandebacker> server 4 GB
<stefandebacker> yes
<alkisg> What ltsp version is that? dpkg -l ltsp-server
<stefandebacker> 5.0.40
<stefandebacker> but it doesn't support new hardware
<alkisg> I tried booting clients with < 64MB RAM with Ubuntu 7.10, and it wasn't possible, so I wonder why it works for you...
<alkisg> (actually, the kernel needs at least 48MB)
<alkisg> So you must be using something else, but I can't imaging what
<stefandebacker> the booting is rather slow (2 - 3 minutes) but after that it works good enough
<stefandebacker> i started from the edubuntu 7.10
<alkisg> With 48MB I was getting kernel panic, they wouldn't boot
<alkisg> I started with edubuntu 7.04...
<alkisg> I could get them to boot with other methods, e.g. deli linux, thinclientos etc, but not with LTSP 5 (that in edubuntu 7.04)
<stefandebacker> I also seem to remember getting a kernel pannick
<stefandebacker> i changed something in the ltsp.conf i think
<alkisg> NBD_SWAP=true, but that's not enough
<alkisg> They still wouldn't boot for me with anything less than 64MB RAM
<alkisg> (both in 7.04, 7.10, 8.04, 8.10, 9.04, 9.10 and 10.04)
<alkisg> Anyway
<stefandebacker> edubuntu server 7.10 i368 is the oldest i have, so it had to have been this one
<stefandebacker> ah i know
<stefandebacker> i compiled it with "old hardware" setting
<alkisg> Compiled what? The chroot kernel?
<stefandebacker> no the image of the thin client
<alkisg> There's no such option in LTSP 5
<alkisg> Maybe you somehow used LTSP 4?
<stefandebacker> it's a long time ago,
<alkisg> If it really works with LTSP 5, it's a major success
<alkisg> I've never heard anyone doing that
<stefandebacker> it must have been something
<alkisg> 64MB RAM is the lowest client limit - nowadays people even suggest 256 MB
<alkisg> *as the lower limit
<stefandebacker> but I am sorry i don't rember what
<highvoltage> heh, last night stgraber complained that his thin client only has 512 MB :)
<alkisg> So if you were able to do it with LTSP 5, we should put your method upstream, for others to benefit from it :)
<stefandebacker> maybe I started with 6.06 and upgraded it to 7.10 (I found my installation log of 2007)
<alkisg> stefandebacker: is it possible to upload your /var/lib/tftpboot/ltsp directory somewhere?
<alkisg> The kernels there are the most important thing to manage booting with 16 RAM
<stefandebacker> -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 1696312 2007-10-15 03:35 vmlinuz-2.6.22-14-386
<stefandebacker> -rw-r--r-- 1 root root  803541 2007-10-15 03:35 System.map-2.6.22-14-386
<stefandebacker> -rw-r--r-- 1 root root   75391 2007-10-15 03:35 config-2.6.22-14-386
<stefandebacker> -rw-r--r-- 1 root root  420774 2007-10-15 03:35 abi-2.6.22-14-386
<stefandebacker> -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 1904248 2008-04-10 18:51 vmlinuz-2.6.24-16-generic
<stefandebacker> -rw-r--r-- 1 root root  899892 2008-04-10 18:51 System.map-2.6.24-16-generic
<stefandebacker> -rw-r--r-- 1 root root   79964 2008-04-10 18:51 config-2.6.24-16-generic
<stefandebacker> -rw-r--r-- 1 root root  422607 2008-04-10 18:51 abi-2.6.24-16-generic
<stefandebacker> -r--r--r-- 1 root root 6132278 2010-01-29 19:59 nbi.img-2.6.22-14-386
<stefandebacker> -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 4438038 2010-01-29 19:59 initrd.img-2.6.22-14-386.bak
<stefandebacker> -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 4438033 2010-01-29 20:00 initrd.img-2.6.22-14-386
<stefandebacker> drwxr-xr-x 3 root root    4096 2010-01-29 20:00 ../
<stefandebacker> -rw-r--r-- 1 root root     369 2010-01-30 16:44 lts.conf
<stefandebacker> -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 4518675 2010-03-04 18:17 initrd.img-2.6.24-16-generic.bak
<stefandebacker> -r--r--r-- 1 root root 6417787 2010-03-04 18:17 nbi.img-2.6.24-16-generic
<stefandebacker> lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root      25 2010-03-04 18:17 vmlinuz -> vmlinuz-2.6.24-16-generic
<stefandebacker> lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root      25 2010-03-04 18:17 nbi.img -> nbi.img-2.6.24-16-generic
<stefandebacker> -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 4518671 2010-03-04 18:17 initrd.img-2.6.24-16-generic
<stefandebacker> lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root      28 2010-03-04 18:17 initrd.img -> initrd.img-2.6.24-16-generic
<stefandebacker> can this help?
<highvoltage> a kernel is also a dangerous thing to have chmod 777'd :)
<stefandebacker> I will change it
<alkisg> Hmm, no, it doesn't really help (we'd need to boot it to see), it just says it's a recent kernel which shouldn't be able to boot with anything less than 64 mb :-/
<alkisg> So I've no idea how it's possible to boot that with 16mb..
<alkisg> highvoltage: 777 are the symlinks only
<highvoltage> alkisg: ah
<alkisg> stefandebacker: maybe that "16 MB" that you see is the VideoRAM number?
<stefandebacker> no
<stefandebacker> sure not
<stefandebacker> i put in the rams myself
<stefandebacker> the videocard has 2 mb ram
<alkisg> Really, really strange. I wish I could see for myself how you managed to do it.
<stefandebacker> hihi
<alkisg> :)
<stefandebacker> i know that i started from an old edubuntu server, because the new ones didn't work on the old software
<stefandebacker> but i wasn't able to make one that would support old and new hardware
<stefandebacker> i tried it. And the old server wouldn't boot new thin clients
<stefandebacker> and the new edubuntu wouldn't boot the old ones
<stefandebacker> i did change the /etc/apt/sources.lst
<stefandebacker> and added this:
<stefandebacker> deb http://old-releases.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ gutsyÂ  main restricted multiverse universe
<stefandebacker> deb http://old-releases.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ gutsy-securityÂ  main restricted multiverse universe
<stefandebacker> deb http://old-releases.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ gutsy-updatesÂ  main restricted multiverse universe
<stefandebacker> before update and upgrade
<stefandebacker> according to my personal log: this is the cd I downloaded http://old-releases.ubuntu.com/releases/edubuntu/gutsy/
<alkisg> OK, all that sounds right, I can't tell you how to fix something that wasn't supposed to be working on the first place :D
<alkisg> I.e. I don't know of *any* (ed)ubuntu version that would boot with 16 RAM
<alkisg> ...and yes, older kernels don't see new hardware
<alkisg> So if I were you I wouldn't even try to upgrade anything, ever :D Those clients won't boot with anything recent
<alkisg> For new clients, with > 300 MB RAM etc, ok, you can boot them as fat clients
<stefandebacker> think I know what happened
<stefandebacker> it was the network card
<stefandebacker> that gave me the kernel pannick
<stefandebacker> and I also got it with a sertain video card
<stefandebacker> a SiS card I think it was
<alkisg> Sure, network and graphics cards can cause kernel panics, but that wasn't my problem, I tried with a very big number of clients. Booting with any less than 64 MB just wasn't possible for me.
<stefandebacker> don't worry about it, I think I am the only one in belgium anyway, that uses these old computers till the bitter end,
<stefandebacker> there should be a low against people who run a computer on less than 64mb anyway
 * alkisg has 2-3 labs here with 32mb, that's why he was interested..
<alkisg> They work with win95 currently
<stefandebacker> ola
<stefandebacker> that's really old
<alkisg> Well, with 32mb you can't boot windows 2000...
<stefandebacker> i rather have linux
<alkisg> (don't tell me you also booted XP with 16mb?! :D)
<stefandebacker> no
<alkisg> Sure, me too, but no linux works with such low ram
<stefandebacker> well i am surely glad it does here
<alkisg> (that's why I was asking so many questions, to see if it was something I could replicate)
<stefandebacker> maybe you can try starting from edubuntu 6
<alkisg> I don't think so, ogra straggled to lower the LTSP 5 RAM limit to 64MB
<alkisg> So it was *higher* before gutsy
<alkisg> I've heard LTSP 4.2 working with 32MB RAM, but noone installs this anymore, it's been unmaintained for ages
<stefandebacker> can i see my version of ltsp somewhere?
<alkisg> dpkg -l ltsp-server, the one above
<alkisg> So you have 5.0.40
<stefandebacker> ah
<stefandebacker> 5
<stefandebacker> bzr20080212-0ubuntu7
<stefandebacker> Basic LTSP server environment
<alkisg> The only thing that would help is a zip of your /var/lib/tftpboot/ltsp/i386 directory, to try to see if actually that kernels boots with 16 mb
<alkisg> (or if you are not even using that kernel, and are booting with some other method)
<stefandebacker> does this hold any passwords?
<alkisg> No
<stefandebacker> youre 100% sure its absolutely safe?
<alkisg> You can skip lts.conf if you don't want to share it (or check yourself if you wrote something there)
<alkisg> Yes, the kernel and the initramfs don't have anything from the user
<alkisg> Only lts.conf may contain passwords, if you put them there
<stefandebacker> one moment
<stefandebacker> where do you want it?
<Utrinqueparatus> does anyone have any experience with using edubuntu with a touchscreen?
<alkisg> stefandebacker: anywhere would do, e.g. rapidshare, and PM me with the link
<Utrinqueparatus> i didnt realise anyone used rapidshare since their crazy rapidpoints scheme
<alkisg> Feel free to use whatever you want
<alkisg> Ah sorry I thought that was stefandebacker, ignore the answer
<Utrinqueparatus> its ok was just sticking my oar in anyway
<Utrinqueparatus> what packages in edubuntu are best aimed at pre-school users?
#edubuntu 2011-07-25
<BroMac> Hi guys. Is the screen resolution can affect the use of a network link?
<BroMac> more transfer?
<BroMac> Helllooooo?? :))))
<BroMac> Who can help me??
<BroMac> Is the screen resolution can affect the use of a network link?
<BroMac> HELLLO ;]
<BroMac> who can help me with optimal resolution of monitor?
<BroMac> who can help me with optimal resolution of monitor?
<BroMac> who can help me with optimal resolution of monitor?
<BroMac> who can help me with optimal resolution of monitor?
<BroMac> who can help me with optimal resolution of monitor?
<BroMac> who can help me with optimal resolution of monitor?
<BroMac> ;]
<jussi> BroMac: no one if you spam like that
<jussi> !repeat
<ubottu> Don't feel ignored and repeat your question quickly; if nobody knows your answer, nobody will answer you. While you wait, try searching https://help.ubuntu.com or http://ubuntuforums.org or http://askubuntu.com/
<BroMac> I'm sorry
<jussi> BroMac: tell exactly the issue you hae, then someone might say they can help
<jussi> !gq
<ubottu> Are you sure your question allows us to help you? Please read http://www.sabi.co.uk/Notes/linuxHelpAsk.html to understand how to ask a 'better' question.
<BroMac> but I have a question with thin client on edubuntu
<jussi> BroMac: yes, so ask the quesrtion, and lets see if we can answer it! :D
<BroMac> so ok
<jussi> BroMac: mind, many of the people who can answer your questions wont wake up for an hour or 2.
#edubuntu 2011-07-27
<AlecTaylor> hi
<AlecTaylor> I've installed the "Tertiary Bundle" from Ubuntu Software Centre (ubuntu-edu-tertiary), it downloaded a heap, but I can't figure out what new stuff I have. What's included?
<alkisg> $ apt-cache show ubuntu-edu-tertiary | grep Depends
<alkisg> Depends: dia-gnome, inkscape, kalzium, kmplot, kstars, ktouch, kturtle, marble, qcad, step, vym
<AlecTaylor> hanks
<AlecTaylor> but incomplete
<highvoltage> we have an edubuntu meeting today
<highvoltage> stgraber: Arkose needs an icon :)
<stgraber> highvoltage: doesn't it have one? (same as gnome-run IIRC)
<stgraber> Icon=gnome-run
<stgraber> but feel free to design a better one ;)
<highvoltage> not in edubuntu at least
<stgraber> it does on Ubuntu (at least on my laptop)
<highvoltage> must be something icon-theme specific though
<Damianos> Hi folks. Anybody know how I can retrieve a list of the items in the Gnome Applications menu via ssh?
<Hyperbyte> Hrm
<Hyperbyte> Gnome classic?
<Hyperbyte> If so, see /usr/share/applications/   There are all the .desktop files for the menu
<Hyperbyte> Also, in /etc/xdg/menus/ are all the categories defined which you see referred to in the .desktop files
<highvoltage> stgraber: arkose should be fine under virtualbox right? It crashes on startup on todays edubuntu build under it.
<Hyperbyte> Damianos_, you saw my answer?
<Damianos> Hyperbyte: /usr/share/applications is perfect.
<Hyperbyte> Okay. :)
<Damianos> thanks a bunch
<Hyperbyte> Welcome.
<Damianos> I'm putting together a gui for accessing some of the Edubuntu classroom management apps from OSX (via ssh + x forwarding)
<Damianos> linux is so slick
<Damianos> :)
<highvoltage> Damianos: nice. would it be something we could share?
<stgraber> highvoltage: yep, it should be fine. What kind of crashes are you getting?
<Damianos> Yeah, as soon as it's done I
<Damianos> I'll be posting it on my web site
<Damianos> it's my first foray into coding for the desktop so this should be fun
<Hyperbyte> Interesting stuff, Damianos. :)
<Damianos> geia sou
<alkisg> Geia sou Damianos :)
<Damianos> alkisg...I gotta run out for a half hour...you gonna be around?
<alkisg> Not sure
<Damianos> ok...we'll see then
<highvoltage> edubuntu meeting in #ubuntu-meeting in around a minute...
<Damianos> You guys should get in touch with the turn-key linux guys and get a nice pre configured ltsp VM available to the public!
<alkisg> Installing edubuntu isn't really harder than deploying a vm
<highvoltage> it's probably easier :)
<highvoltage> (in the edubuntu installer installing LTSP is just one click)
<Damianos_> how dependent are the thin clients on the server's own settings? Can I have the server have a tricked out gnome desktop or even no desktop while the thin clients run something leaner like XFCE?
<alkisg> You can have multiple desktops in ubuntu, and different users using different desktops
<alkisg> But the server should have a desktop for the thin clients to use
<alkisg> Fat clients are a different case, the server doesn't even have to have X in that case
<Damianos_> so I can have thin clients running XFCE while the server has Gnome or KDE as long as X is running on the server?
<alkisg> Not running. Just installed on the server.
<Damianos_> even better
<Damianos_> I'm trying to customize the environments so all stations can have the best performance while still looking good. I like docky and the fact that it runs real nice even with metacity is great. Students can just rely on the dock for what they need to access for class (these are K through 5 students)
<Damianos_> I also just started checking out accessing the server via ssh and X forwarding. Everytime I dig a little deeper into Linux/Unix I love it even more
 * Hyperbyte <3 Linux :)
#edubuntu 2011-07-28
<alkisg> Good morning
#edubuntu 2011-07-29
<Damianos> how can I set up compositing on the thin client images? I'd like to set up a polished environment for the teachers and students but lts.conf only allows for functional things from what I've read
<alkisg> Damianos: compositing is enabled by default if the client supports it
<alkisg> It's not related to lts.conf options
<Damianos> I discovered that it should be done in a gconf file
<Damianos> when I try to open up in the directory etc/gconf/ they're all empty
<Damianos> I could log in as each student but I want to learn how to configure them from the central configuration files
<Damianos> If I change default values in gconftool-2, will those change my current settings or will it only affect new accounts created?
<Hyperbyte> There's gconf.xml.defaults, which are default settings for when there are no user settings for something
<Hyperbyte> And there's gconf.xml.mandatory which overrides any user settings
<Hyperbyte> So the default settings can affect your current settings, if there are none.  Let's say you configure a default desktop background, and someone hasn't changed their background configuration from the previous default, it'll change.
<Hyperbyte> If they seletected a different background at one point (even if they changed it back to the default later), it won't change because it's saved in the user's settings.
<Hyperbyte> Heh, you're welcome!
<Damianos_> Where can I find docs on how to setup network interfaces? I have a wireless nic that works fine and an Ethernet nic that works fine when booting clients. However if both are enabled I can't get Internet. Thin clients still boot but no internet
<Damianos_> I checked the subnets and there are no conflicts
#edubuntu 2011-07-30
<Guus_> Hello folks,
<Guus_> i was wondering, is there any chance that OpenTeacher will be included in the next edubuntu?
<Guus_> it fits right in.
<highvoltage> hi Guus_
<highvoltage> Arvind Raj did packaging for it, but it needs some changes to make it into the archive
<highvoltage> the deadline is basically on August 11, I'm going to try to get it in to the archives before then even if it's not in 100% perfect state, and then we could have it included in Edubuntu
<Guus_> ah cool, thanks for the effort
<Damianos> Need some help troubleshooting a network problem. I have an ltsp server with a wireless NIC and an ethernet NIC. The ethernet is faceing the private LAN and boots thin clients fine. Unfortunately, when the ethernet is plugged in I can't get any internet on the server or the clients. Furthermore, with ethernet disconnected, I can connect to my router but not to the internet
<alkisg> Damianos: yesterday I answered you, today Hyperbyte did
<alkisg> You just ignore us... :(
<Damianos> no sir!  I had to try and do IRC on my phone and it keeps kicking me out of the room
<alkisg> Please read the irc logs, and see our answers there
<Damianos> ok, how do I check the logs?
<alkisg> irclogs.ubuntu.org, irclogs.ltsp.org
<Damianos> thank you so much and I am so sorry about the last few attempts
<Damianos> there is no record of anything said by you, hyberbyte or myself on the ltsp.org logs. The ubuntu.org logs have a "Global day of mobilisation" banner
<alkisg> ubuntu.com, sorry
<Damianos> ah, ok
<alkisg> ubuntu.com is for edubuntu, while I think with hyperbyte you talked (or tried to) in #ltsp so it's in irclogs.ltsp.org
<alkisg> Damianos: anyway, let's start over
<Damianos> ok
<alkisg> First, can you paste the output of `ip addr show` ?
<alkisg> In pastebin, e.g. paste.ubuntu.com
<Damianos> ok
<Hyperbyte> At least this time he didn't ignore us.
<Hyperbyte> Hahahaha
<alkisg> Hehe
<alkisg> He probably has set a gateway for the wired nic, and they're both on the same subnet
<Hyperbyte> Hence me asking him to pastebin   ip route show
<Hyperbyte> :)
<Hyperbyte> Ah
<Damianos> http://paste.ubuntu.com/655327/
<Damianos> sorry, whenever the ethernet is connected nothing on my network can connect to the internet
<alkisg> OK
<alkisg> How does your wired nic get its IP?
<alkisg> From network manager, or from /etc/network/interfaces?
<Damianos> I'm not sure
<alkisg> cat /etc/network/interfacs
<alkisg> es
<alkisg> If you see IPs there, that's the one
<alkisg> If so, please put that too to pastebin
<Damianos> http://paste.ubuntu.com/655329/
<alkisg> Hmmm can you also pastebin what Hyperbyte told you?  ip route show
<Damianos> one sec...I'll plug the ethernet in so I replicate the problem and then do it
<Hyperbyte> Wait
<alkisg> ok
<Hyperbyte> Do both
<Damianos> ok
<Hyperbyte> ip route show   in both conditions
<Hyperbyte> This is the point where we can talk again behind his back for a little while. ;->
<alkisg> Haha
<alkisg> And we've verified he won't see the logs :P
<Damianos> http://paste.ubuntu.com/655331/
<Hyperbyte> Different default gateway
<Damianos> is that what the first address represents?
<Hyperbyte> When you enable the local network, Ubuntu sets that as default route
<Hyperbyte> No
<Hyperbyte> 'default via IP'
<Damianos> ok
<alkisg> It's weird though, because he doesn't have a route in his /etc/network/interfaces.
<Hyperbyte> What does the 'auto eth0' mean?
<Hyperbyte> No actually
<alkisg> "bring that interface up on boot, according to what's written below"
<Hyperbyte> I think the problem is that he -needs- to define a route
<Hyperbyte> By default, any interface that comes up last, is default route
<alkisg> Why? If an interface doesn't have a route, why would it be the default route?
<Hyperbyte> alkisg, there needs to be a default route.
<alkisg> Per interface?
<Hyperbyte> No, one global default route.
<alkisg> OK, so why would it be wrong to not have one for eth0?
<Hyperbyte> The dhcp interface should take precedence though I think.
<Hyperbyte> No, I meant he needs to have one for wlan0
<alkisg> I think I've tried that several times, and it worked fine.
<alkisg> That's given by dhcp
<alkisg> For wlan1
<alkisg> Damianos: which ubuntu version is that?
<Damianos> 10.0.4 but I originally installed 9.10 and then upgraded
<Hyperbyte> alkisg, could we be looking at a configuration file that isn't used, because NetworkManager is active anyways?
<alkisg> When network manager sees an interface declaration in /etc/network/interfaces, it ignores it, and in the UI it says "not managed"
<Hyperbyte> Okay
<alkisg> So /me hasn't yet thought of how eth0 gets that route...
<Hyperbyte> For starters, you could try removing the 'network' and 'broadcast' lines from there.  They shouldn't be needed.
<Hyperbyte> Don't think that'll help much, but at least it's something.
<alkisg> Right... and maybe if you defined gateway 0.0.0.0, it would solve your problem, but without realizing what caused it
<Hyperbyte> Damianos, also, wild guess here, try putting the wlan1 interface below the eth0 interface in the configuration.
<Damianos> ok
<Damianos> brb
 * alkisg has started advicing teachers here to use network manager instead of /etc/network/interfaces
<alkisg> It usually gives them less trouble
<Damianos> here goes...if you see me leave the room it's a bust
<alkisg> Hmm... Damianos, one reason why you might got a gateway with that /etc/network/interfaces, is if you manually tried "dhclient eth0". Did you?
<Hyperbyte> eth0 != dhcp
<alkisg> If he manually requested it, why not?
<Damianos> I don't remember
<Damianos> I don't think so...I messed with a previous installation on this machine but then did a clean install
<Hyperbyte> What's even weirder
<Hyperbyte> Is that it leaves the dhcp fail range (169.254.0.0/16) to wlan1 but sets default to eth0
<Damianos> what is the significance of the "auto" before the interface name?
<Hyperbyte> 23:50 <alkisg> "bring that interface up on boot, according to what's written
<Hyperbyte>           below"
<alkisg> (12:50:24 ÏÎ¼) Hyperbyte: What does the 'auto eth0' mean?
<alkisg> (12:50:49 ÏÎ¼) alkisg: "bring that interface up on boot, according to what's written below"
<Hyperbyte> Hehe
<alkisg> Haha
<Hyperbyte> Did you remove the 'network' and 'broadcast' lines?
<Damianos> I'll do that right now
<alkisg> Anyway /me needs to go, battery low and no wifi on room
<Hyperbyte> Enjoy your vacation!
<Damianos> thanks again alkisg
<alkisg> Carry on, and good luck :)
<Damianos> I commented out the network and broadcast lines from the eth0
<Damianos> here goes
<Damianos> what if I gave myself a static IP on wlan1?
<Damianos> would that force it to look at the correct gateway?
<Hyperbyte> Probably helps.
<Hyperbyte> Well no, but then we can configure a static gateway
<Hyperbyte> To configure wlan1 as default gateway, add the line
<Hyperbyte> up route add default gw 192.168.2.1
<Hyperbyte> That might even work when it's still dhcp... I'm just curious if eth0 is gonna override even that
<Hyperbyte> Actually, I think you could even just specify 'gateway 192.168.2.1' under wlan1
<Hyperbyte> Sorry, I'm a bit unfamiliar with Ubuntu network config
<Damianos> should I just type it in etc/network/interfaces ?
<Hyperbyte> How are you exactly bringing up/down eth2?
<Hyperbyte> Erm, wlan1?
<Damianos> what do you mean by bringing up/down?
<Hyperbyte> You say you enable wlan1 and then it goes wrong
<Hyperbyte> What do you type/do to enable wlan1?
<Damianos> oh...when I plug in my ethernet cable
<Hyperbyte> Okay
<Hyperbyte> We're gonna do this the proper way from now on
<Hyperbyte> You don't disconnect your ethernet cable
<Hyperbyte> You use 'ifdown eth0' 'ifup eth0'
<Hyperbyte> Also
<Hyperbyte> Your /etc/network/interfaces
<Hyperbyte> Should contain:
<Hyperbyte> http://razor.middelkoop.cc/~dj/damianos.txt
<Hyperbyte> That
<Hyperbyte> And after that's done, you plug it all cables, make everything the way it's supposed to be
<Hyperbyte> And then run
<Hyperbyte> sudo /etc/init.d/networking restart
<Damianos> ok
<Hyperbyte> Any luck?
<Damianos> well, internet is now working....thin client is not booting...should I restart dhcp?
<Hyperbyte> Your network works like this, with everything connected/plugged in?
<Damianos> hold on...there was a warning
<Damianos> "WARNING: ifup -a is disabled in favour of NetworkManager.
<Damianos>   Set ifupdown:managed=false in /etc/NetworkManager/nm-system-settings.conf.
<Damianos>    ...done.
<Damianos> "
<Hyperbyte> That's probably due to me not understanding Ubuntu network enough
<Hyperbyte> If it still works after a reboot I wouldn't worry about it. :)
<Damianos> I'm going to try and restart dhcp
<Hyperbyte> If you type 'ifconfig', do you see both interfaces there, with the correct IP's?
<Damianos> eth0 is not listed
<Hyperbyte> Type
<Hyperbyte> ifup eth0
<Hyperbyte> Haha
<Hyperbyte> Wtf...
<Damianos> ethernet plugged in  = thin client working internet not working
<Hyperbyte> Okay
<Hyperbyte> Get rid of /etc/network/interfaces
<Hyperbyte> And do it like this:  https://help.ubuntu.com/community/NetworkManager0.7
<Damianos> it's funny...earlier I tried to pull up NetworkManager via ssh and it said it was already running
<Hyperbyte> According to Alkis NetworkManager is gonna solve all your problems
<Hyperbyte> Just make sure you get rid of the old config
<Hyperbyte> As in, /etc/network/interfaces
<Damianos> ok
<Damianos> well, I looked in NM-applet and it's not seeing eth0
<Damianos> the cable is plugged in but no mention of anything ethernet
<Damianos> actually correction: in Network Connections there is mention of ifupdown (eth0) but I don't know if that is what I should be setting up
<Damianos> ok...after rebooting auto eth0 now shows up in NM
<Damianos> I have to go pick up my wife from school so I'll be back in 45...thanks again for taking the time
<Damianos> you guys are awesome
#edubuntu 2012-07-23
<highvoltage> stgraber: I added our sponsors topic to tb agenda. I don't have anything prepared and if tb wants to discuss it next time I'm fine with that too
<highvoltage> (oh I need to add the link still)
<stgraber> ok
<highvoltage> stgraber: I removed the tb agenda item again since I won't be able to make it at that time
#edubuntu 2012-07-24
<Aarat_> anyone there?
<stgraber> ^ ... wrong version number... should be -1ubuntu0.1, though I guess the SRU team will let it in regardless
#edubuntu 2012-07-25
 * stgraber starts testing edubuntu amd64
<stgraber> highvoltage: hangout will be best effort, I have to fix a bug + respin Edubuntu, sorry
<highvoltage> stgraber: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/cccf93bd60bb712833ffb193e6cb35a6824f5859?eid=106512410045218522565&hl=en
<highvoltage> stgraber: can you join?
<highvoltage> (and anyone else too who wants)
<highvoltage> stgraber: *sigh*
<stgraber> highvoltage: what happened?
<highvoltage> stgraber: I think we should abort this for today and figure out how to do it properly
<stgraber> highvoltage: works for me, not much to say and in the middle of a couple of crisis anyway ;)
<highvoltage> stgraber: yeah me too
 * highvoltage gets back to intervention 
<highvoltage> == Edubuntu ==
<highvoltage> * A new package called 'edubuntu-netboot' is introduced. This package now provides the functionality previously provided by ltsp-live and introduces casper-netboot.
<highvoltage> stgraber: ^^^ that seems to be it
<stgraber> highvoltage: "and will also be used for casper-netboot."
<stgraber> highvoltage: no casper-netboot yet
<highvoltage> ok, updated
<alkisg> Do we finally get to reuse the dvd squashfs image for fat clients too? ! :)
<stgraber> nope, and we'll keep building a separate ltsp image for the time being
<stgraber> mostly because people tend to install an amd64 server and have i386 clients
<stgraber> so reusing the image would prevent their clients from booting
<alkisg> We'll have i386 image on the amd64 dvd?
<stgraber> we always did
<alkisg> Dunno.. for the same reasons that ltsp-build-client defaults to arch instead of i386, I think that would be a good idea for the DVD too
<alkisg> And it would also save a lot of space and make a reasonable showcase for LTSP
<alkisg> Because of caching, otherwise it's very slow from CDs
<alkisg> ARM will also become more significant in the future, so defaulting to <arch> plays a role there too
<alkisg> Anyways... hope we'll see that in some future version
<stgraber> we're certainly planning on letting people boot the DVD over the network so they can install Edubuntu on machines without DVD drives, but that won't be using LTSP (we'll just add nbd support to casper-netboot)
<alkisg> That can also be done currently with NFS... one just need nfs-kernel-server temporarily
<alkisg> (even if it just exports the squashfs image)
<alkisg> The CD is so slow that NBD vs NFS doesn't matter
<stgraber> yeah, casper works with nfs and cifs (I fixed the later), adding nbd should just take me 30min or so, I have a work item for it :)
<alkisg> I might spin a fat demo dvd for anyone interested when I get some free time... :)
<alkisg> (reusing the same squashfs again, for the caching part)
<alkisg> One 9.04 live ltsp dvd that I had done, was downloaded more than 1000 times (for greek teachers only, so that's a lot of downloads for the restricted audience)
<alkisg> And since more and more people are switching to fat clients, I think it'll be valuable as a demo...
 * alkisg takes a look at uck...
<alkisg> Hmm no I think there was another, more official kit for live cd localization/customization...
#edubuntu 2012-07-27
<roasted> hello!
<roasted> anybody active?
<ecanals> I'm having a driver related issue and want to know where I should post my question
<ecanals> I'm using Edubuntu 12.04
<highvoltage> ecanals: http://askubuntu.com/ is usually very responsive
<ecanals> thanks
<highvoltage> ecanals: you could ask here too and if someone happens to know, they could help, but IRC is usually a mixed bag and people come and go
<ecanals> I'll try that now
<ecanals> yea, I know how it is
<ecanals> I've been searching for this for 2 days now to no avail
<brunolambert> "this" being?
<ecanals> I need to find the drivers for an Intel Atom Integrated Graphics processor
<ecanals> the card is compatible with
<ecanals> Atom D2500
<ecanals> D2700
<ecanals> N2100
<ecanals> N2600
<ecanals> and N2800
<ecanals> or Intel UMA integrated graphics controller
<ecanals> well now my graphics card shows as Vesa Intel XX
<ecanals> but I can't adjust the screen resolution
<ecanals> its stuck at 800x300
<ecanals> 4:3
<highvoltage> ecanals: ah, that's interesting
<highvoltage> ecanals: so is this some new integrated gpu that's different to the old atom ones?
<stgraber> ecanals: can you paste the output of "lspci -nnn | grep VGA" please?
<stgraber> I'm wondering if you don't happen to have a cedarview intel graphic card
<stgraber> if you do, then you'll have to wait a few more weeks as the enablement for these in 12.04 is still ongoing and scheduled to land within the next month
<ecanals> ok
<ecanals> will do
<ecanals> I'm not on the machine at the moment
<ecanals> out of curiosity
<ecanals> what would be considered the optimal desktop UI for edubuntu
<ecanals> unity, gnome, or KDE
<ecanals> ?
<highvoltage> ecanals: unity and gnome-fallback is currently supported. gnome-shell and kde works fine but the edubuntu developers don't explicitely support them
<ecanals> I see
<highvoltage> ecanals: basically, all of those are fine. we're mostly targeting unity for future features that we want to introduce since it's the default in both ubuntu and edubuntu
<ecanals> just wondering, as there are several packages for the edubuntu bundle that are specifically for KDE
<highvoltage> ecanals: yep, they rely on KDE libraries, but don't require a KDE desktop
<ecanals> ok then
<ecanals> good to know
<ecanals> I'm curious about something else...
<ecanals> I've seen other versions of ubuntu that have been re-branded, so to speak
<ecanals> Kimo is one of them I believe
<ecanals> sorry
<ecanals> Qimo
<highvoltage> ecanals: you could probably look at the edubuntu-artwork package as an example of rebranding
<ecanals> is this in violation of any of Ubuntu terms of use
<ecanals> i see
<highvoltage> ecanals: nope, you may change all the branding
<ecanals> so it would ok to rebrand the boot screen, lock, screen, etc. with company branding
<highvoltage> yep
<ecanals> lock screen*
<ecanals> ok
<ecanals> I'm still working on this graphics card issue
<ecanals> I shotgunned the synaptic, which wasnt a good idea, and had to reformat
<ecanals> finishing up now
<ecanals_> sorry for the delay
<ecanals_> output for lspci -nnn | grep VGA
<ecanals_> Intel Corporation Atom Processor D2xxx/N2xxx Integrated Graphics Controller
<ecanals_> [8086:0be1](rec09)
<ecanals_> (rev09)*
<ecanals_> stgraber: it is a cedarview chipset
<ecanals_> I'm trying to work through it right now with the sarvat/cedarview ppa
<ecanals_> well, it works
<ecanals_> had to tweak a few ofthe steps in this guide http://daily.siebler.eu/2012/06/ubuntu-12-04-driver-for-intel-cedarview-atom-n2000-und-d2000-serie/
<ecanals_> and this one:http://askubuntu.com/questions/163448/fixing-800x600-resolution-in-toshiba-nb510-gma-3650-with-vesa-driver
<ecanals_> but it seems to be working for now
#edubuntu 2012-07-28
<ecanals_> I'm experiencing a bug with rc.local on my 12.04 install
<ecanals_> rc.local wont run on startup
<ecanals_> runs fine when executed from the terminal, but not after startup
 * ICWiener has to reboot bbiab
<basoke> Hello, I'm trying to figure out how to use xorg.conf to set-up a multi-user multi-head environment, does anyone have any experience?
#edubuntu 2012-07-29
<megawattz>  can someone help i tried to install ubuntu 12.04 LTS 32bit but everytime it loads to install i get a black screen
<mssmss> hi .. looing for some help on edubuntu client display problems...
<mssmss> looking ..
<mssmss> Hi can anyone help me ltsp client widescreen display issues ?
<mssmss> Hi can anyone help me ltsp client widescreen display issues ?
#edubuntu 2013-07-22
<W3ird_N3rd> something on your website/wiki is broken, is here anyone with power?
<W3ird_N3rd> I try to login with my Launchpad details (no idea if I already have ubuntu one) and get:
<W3ird_N3rd> OpenID error: return_to does not match return URL. Expected 'http://wiki.ubuntu.com/?action=login&login=1&oidstage=1&stage=openid', got u'http://wiki.edubuntu.org/?action=login&login=1&oidstage=1&stage=openid&janrain_nonce=2013-07-22T17
<W3ird_N3rd> seems I'm not alone..
#edubuntu 2013-07-26
<nicolenicole> I am looking for the package "edubuntu-desktop-kde" for Kubuntu 13.04 Raring.  I cannot find it on Muon, Ubuntu Software Center, Synaptic, or with "sudo apt-get install" in Terminal.
<tsimpson> nicolenicole: it was dropped in raring: http://changelogs.ubuntu.com/changelogs/pool/universe/e/edubuntu-meta/edubuntu-meta_12.10.1/changelog
<nicolenicole> So it will no longer be available?  I have to install the applications individually or install the regular Edubuntu desktop on Kubuntu instead?
<tsimpson> the package doesn't exist from raring on, so yeah
<nicolenicole> are there any issues with installing "edubuntu-desktop" on Kubuntu 13.04?
<tsimpson> not that I know of
<nicolenicole> oh ok, thanks
#edubuntu 2013-07-27
<paul_> I'm interested in getting Edubuntu WebLive back online, can possibly provide servers... anyone here know who to contact?
<paul_> I submitted a contact form weeks ago from the website, but no response
#edubuntu 2017-07-26
<blahdeblah> Hi folks; I'm going to be renewing the TLS certificate for wiki.edubuntu.org shortly.
<blahdeblah> There shouldn't be any significant disruption, but please let us know in #canonical-sysadmin if you notice any problems.
<blahdeblah> Just noticed that wiki.edubuntu.org is a redirect to wiki.ubuntu.com, so you probably won't even see this.
<blahdeblah> Change is done now.
#edubuntu 2019-07-22
-queuebot:#edubuntu- Unapproved: cloud-utils (disco-proposed/main) [0.31-0ubuntu1 => 0.31-0ubuntu1.1] (core, edubuntu)
#edubuntu 2019-07-23
-queuebot:#edubuntu- Unapproved: gnome-flashback (bionic-proposed/universe) [3.28.0-1ubuntu1.3 => 3.28.0-1ubuntu1.4] (edubuntu)
-queuebot:#edubuntu- Unapproved: gnome-flashback (disco-proposed/universe) [3.30.0-1ubuntu6 => 3.30.0-1ubuntu6.1] (edubuntu)
#edubuntu 2019-07-27
<amq> C
#edubuntu 2020-07-25
<Faolcu> im new to ubuntu and im running tor. just got a message that tor is reinstalling what to do?
<Faolcu> love the welcome message(y)
