#ubuntu-classroom 2007-11-05
<jrib> rainwalker: using effects?
<rainwalker> yes
<jrib> rainwalker: turn them off and see if it still happens
<rainwalker> ok, hang on
<rainwalker> it shows up
<jrib> switch back
<rainwalker> ok
<rainwalker> it doesn't show up now
<rainwalker> I've had scripts like that in my menu before and it showed up
<rainwalker> like on Feisty I had one that would switch between metacity and compiz fusion
<jrib> see if it persists if you restart X
<rainwalker> ok, just a sec
<rainwalker> didn't work
<bazhang> morning all
<pmirc2006> hello
<NnEo0> anybody talk spanish?
<nalioth> NnEo0: en #ubuntu-es
<NnEo0> thanks
#ubuntu-classroom 2007-11-07
<bullgard4> soundray: ping
<soundray> pong
<soundray> Auf Deutsch?
<bullgard4> Ich spreche Deutsch.
<soundray> Ich kenne den Code of Conduct und halte mich daran. Vielleicht hatten wir ein MissverstÃ¤ndnis?
<bullgard4> Ja, vielleicht.
<soundray> Willst Du mir erlÃ¤utern, was ich in Deinen Augen falsch gemacht habe?
<bullgard4> RÃ¼de Ausdrucksweise, nicht nur mir gegenÃ¼ber. Ungerechtfertigte Unterstellungen mir gegenÃ¼ber gemacht.
<soundray> Fangen wir mit Nr 1 an. Wann und wie war ich rÃ¼de?
<bullgard4> Um 13:11 Uhr.
<bullgard4> Um 13:08 Uhr.
<soundray> bullgard4: you can find that yourself -- damit wollte ich zum Ausdruck bringen, dass es fÃ¼r Dich einfacher ist, den Fehler zu finden, den Du in Dein Reposting von meinem Kommando eingetragen hast (das fehlende Leerzeichen)
<soundray> bullgard4: what's that?
<bullgard4> Und um 13:10 Uhr.
<soundray> Sieht fÃ¼r mich nach einer sachlichen Frage aus.
<soundray>  bullgard4: okay, I hope you only forgot the space when you wrote it up here, not when you actually entered it in the terminal.
<soundray> Damit wollte ich sagen, dass Du hoffentlich das Kommando korrekt eingegeben hast, nicht fehlerhaft, so wie im IRC wiedergegeben.
<bullgard4> soundray: Genau so etwas sindungerechtfertigte Unterstellungen.
<soundray> Ich halte das schon fÃ¼r gerechtfertigt. SchlieÃlich habe ich nur Dein IRC-Posting gesehen, und nicht, was Du in der Shell eingegeben hast. Ich habe also nur den einen Anhaltspunkt, und da ist das, was Du geschrieben hast, nunmal fehlerhaft.
<bullgard4> Es geht nicht darum, daÃ der Befehl, den ich eingegeben habe, fehlerhaft ist. Es geht um ungerechtfertigte Unterstellugen.
<soundray> Was ist denn eine Unterstellung? Ich habe doch nicht behauptet, dass Du Deine Mutter schlÃ¤gst oder sowas.
<bullgard4> Du hast z. B. unterstellt, ich wÃ¼Ãte nicht, daÃ man space mit Leerzeichen Ã¼bersetzt.
<soundray> In #ubuntu nehmen Leute aller Nationen mit sehr unterschiedlichen Englischkenntnissen teil. Woher soll ich wissen, ob Du weiÃt, was ein space ist, oder nicht?
<bullgard4> soundray: Aus der Art der Fragen, die ich gestellt habe. ich habe ganz andere Fragen gestellt.
<soundray> Ich habe mich auch daran erinnert, dass Du Ã¶fters sprachliche Fragen in #ubuntu stellst.
<soundray> Okay, ich habe Dich dann wohl unterschÃ¤tzt, was Deine Englischkenntnisse angeht. Sorry!
<soundray> Aber Du bezeichnest das gleich als Unterstellung -- ist das nicht ein bisschen Ã¼bertrieben?
<bullgard4> Ich stelle Ã¶fter solche Fragen, weil ich eine deutsche Ubuntu-Version habe, aber die englischen Dokumentationen umfangreicher sind.  Da ging es um  Fachtermini, Ubuntu-Programme betreffend.-- Das ist aber ein ganz anderes Thema und stand hier nicht zur Debatte.
<bullgard4> Das ist nicht Ã¼bertrieben. Genau so etwas bezeichnet man im Deutschen als Unterstellung.
<soundray> Es erklÃ¤rt bloÃ, warum ich Deine Englischkenntnisse unterschÃ¤tzt habe.
<soundray> Okay, dann war es eine Unterstellung -- aber bestimmt keine bÃ¶sartige. Nimmst Du meine Entschuldigung also an?
<bullgard4> Du bist nicht auf die Frage eingegangen, die ich gestellt habe, sondern hast ganz andere Dinge erzÃ¤hlt.
<bullgard4> Bis jetzt hast Du Dich ja noch gar nicht entschuldigt.
<soundray> Doch, um 14:45
<soundray> GMT
<bullgard4> soundray:
<bullgard4> soundray: Meinst Du "<  soundray> Ich habe mich auch daran erinnert, dass Du Ã¶fters sprachliche Fragen in #ubuntu" stellst."
<soundray> Nein, ich meine: "Okay, ich habe Dich dann wohl unterschÃ¤tzt, was Deine Englischkenntnisse angeht. Sorry!"
<bullgard4> Ich finde, das ist nicht der Hauptpunkt der Auseinandersetzung. Ich meine aber, ich sollte diese Diskussion nicht Ã¼ber GebÃ¼hr ausdehnen.
<soundray> Und was ist der Hauptpunkt?
<soundray> bullgard4: Hat das mit dem Blacklisting dann eigentlich funktioniert?
<bullgard4> Also noch einmal: Ich denke, ich sollte nicht auf einer langen Auseinandersetzung bestehen. Du hattest Dir mÃ¶glicherweise eine falsche Vorstellung von der Situation auf der anderen Seite der IRC-Verbindung gemacht und aus dieser Situationsvorstellung unterstellende Aussagen gemacht, die der ProblemlÃ¶sung nicht dienlich waren.
<bullgard4> soundray: Es hat mit dem Blacklisting bisher nicht funktioniert.
<soundray> Okay, point taken.
<bullgard4> soundray: Leute mit Informatik-Studium als Hintergrund haben das auch nicht mit mir zusammen lÃ¶sen kÃ¶nnen bisher.
<soundray> Im Informatik-Studium lernt man ja auch nichts Ã¼ber praktische Probleme dieser Art.
<soundray> Hier jetzt meine Bitte an Dich:
<bullgard4> soundray: Das wird stimmen.
<soundray> Wenn Du meinst, ich wÃ¼rde mich falsch verhalten, dann sprich mich in Zukunft bitte direkt darauf an. Mich Ã¶ffentlich aufzufordern, den Code of Conduct zu lesen, ist auÃerordentlich verletzend und ehrenrÃ¼hrig.
<bullgard4> soundray: Das verspreche ich Dir.
<soundray> Noch was zu meinem Stil: Ich fasse mich normalerweise kurz und knapp, damit ich so vielen Leuten wie mÃ¶glich helfen kann. Andere gute Helfer, wie ikonia, jrib, erUSUL und Seveas machen das genauso.
<soundray> Manchmal hilft es, ein dickeres Fell zu haben, dann wirkt diese Art gar nicht mehr rÃ¼de.
<bullgard4> soundray: Zu kurz und knapp ist oft nicht kommunikations-effizient. Du kannst wahrscheinlich 400 Zeichen in der Minute tippen. Da dauern 10 Schriftzeichen mehr nur Millisekunden. Manche Leute versuchen, mit ganz kurzen Bemerkugen sich in den Rang eines Gurus zu heben. (Du nicht.)
<soundray> Okay. Vertragen wir uns jetzt?
<bullgard4> Ja, ein dickeres Fell ist in den engen KommunikationskanÃ¤len ein gutes Rezept, aber nicht immer durchzuhalten. Dann lÃ¶st man seine Probleme auch nicht.
<bullgard4> Ja.
<soundray> Tust Du mir jetzt einen Gefallen und informierst Paddy_EIRE darÃ¼ber?
<bullgard4> Ich werde ich den Kanal zurÃ¼ck gehen und Paddy_EIRE pingen.
<bullgard4> awds
<soundray> Okay, danke, bis demnÃ¤chst
#ubuntu-classroom 2008-11-03
<dbuiviet> what's on Ubuntu Open Week this week? :-)
<dbuiviet> what's on Ubuntu Open Week this week? :-)
<nalioth> dbuiviet: the /topic exists for your infomation
<dbuiviet> @nalioth: thanks
<wissler> hi
<wissler> is anyone here
<seravitae> hi
<oly562> hello :)
<seravitae> Flannel - okay so my previous issue is this. i installed egroupware and it worked fine, except the db messed up somehow so i went to uninstall it. it wouldn't uninstall (because i didnt know about purge). so right now ive tried to remove *everything*, by doing aptitude purge apache2 egroupware php5
<seravitae> which works
<seravitae> yet apache doesnt remove, and it's still running, for starters.
<seravitae> so purge isn't working?
<Flannel> seravitae: apache2 includes apache2.2-common, apache2-mpm-worer
<seravitae> how come purging doesnt purge  dependancies?
<Flannel> seravitae: "apache2" isn't quite a metapackage, but it certainly acts that way for a good portion of "apache"
<seravitae> ah.
<Flannel> seravitae: Because that would also purge stuff like libc, etc.
<seravitae> right
<seravitae> okay ive purged that too
<seravitae> so to install egroupware i should now do aptitude install apache2 php5 egroupware
<seravitae> at this point with egroupware purged, /etc/egroupware still exists and is populated btw
<Flannel> seravitae: Are you sure you got all of the groupware stuff?  What particular config files did you delete?
<oly562> :|
<seravitae> well, ive only ever removed/purged the package, so i think the package is missing deleting some config
<Flannel> seravitae: How did you lose your original apache config?
<seravitae> to be honest im not sure. trying to get egroupware reinstalled (with full deletion of its configs)
<Flannel> seravitae: Alright.  Well, go ahead and do this then: dpkg -S /etc/egroupware
<Flannel> seravitae: that should list all the packages that have put something in that directory, so you can purge them
<seravitae> k nothings left
<Flannel> seravitae: alright, go ahead and reinstall egroupware and apache then.
<seravitae> ok
<seravitae> packages install fine, apache comes up
<seravitae> but egroupware fails silently. the packages install but usually it comes up with a setup program
<seravitae> and myserver/egroupware 404's
<Flannel> seravitae: I've never used egroupware, have you looked in the DEBIAN.Readme file?
<Flannel> seravitae: It normally does that on Ubuntu? or in other distros?
<seravitae> it did it this morning when i installed it for the first time, now it doesnt
<seravitae> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=373644 <-- that is what im experiencing, with possible solution,
<Flannel> seravitae: Do you have libapache2-mod-php5 installed?
<seravitae> yep
<seravitae> doing a force-reload on apache2 shows apache2: Syntax error on line 295 of /etc/apache2/apache2.conf: Could not open configuration file /etc/apache2/conf.d/egroupware: No such file or directory
<seravitae>    ...fail!
<seravitae> do i need to make a link?
<Flannel> Ah, there you go.
<Flannel> Um, check the README.Debian file, see what it says.
<seravitae> ok
<seravitae> didn't help. it talks about changing the yourhostname/egroupware/ path in /etc/egroupware/apache.conf
<seravitae> /etc/egroupware exists, but it's empty.
<Flannel> seravitae: You might be able to get more help in #ubuntu-server, someone who's familiar with egroupware should be able to sort it out pretty quickly.
<seravitae> ok, ill try there, thanks :)
<seravitae> Flannel: ps, i really think the issue is that even after purging the package, it doesn't ever reload the setup script, whihc i bet creates the apache.conf file.
<Flannel> seravitae: that means you're not getting rid of the 'right' package (the one that handles the set up script, whether the file itself, or in post-install), *or* theres some other flag being set which is causnig the setup to not run
<irish> hi
<irish> Could somebody explain why when I connect my Olympus Sp510 photocam via USB it doesn't automounts ?
<irish> The device suddenly appears in dev like /dev/sdb and /dev/sdb1 the kde says: whow! I've found your Cam! Then dolphin says: no such device :(
<irish> when I try to look at /dev/ there is no more /dev/sdb
<irish> BUT! If hal daemon is stopped device is still present and I can mount it by hands. But it is not so comfortable to stop hal and mount using console command
<xHans> irish: try asking in #ubuntu or #kde, I think this channel is just for this week's conference/classes
<xHans> check to see if it shows up in /proc/scsi/scsi, but that's the only suggestion I have and it's not terribly useful :)
<irish>  xHans: thanks, i'll try! have a nice week!
<xHans> bitte
<isimluk> hi all
<sub> :9
<kod65> hello
<Frippe> Â /ignoreÂ #ubuntu-classroomÂ CRAPÂ NOTICESÂ SNOTESÂ CTCPSÂ JOINSÂ PARTSÂ QUITSÂ KICKSÂ MODESÂ WALLOPSÂ NICKSÂ DCCÂ DCCMSGSÂ CLIENTNOTICESÂ CLIENTCRAPÂ CLIENTERRORSÂ HILIGHTSÂ 
<tuspak> hi
<geNx> when its begin?
<ys76> geNx: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDeveloperWeek
<Lops88> salve a tutti
<Lops88> ma dov'Ã¨ la conferenza ?
<almighurt> Lops88: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
<hethi> /ignore #ubuntu-classroom CRAP NOTICES SNOTES CTCPS JOINS PARTS QUITS KICKS MODES WALLOPS NICKS DCC DCCMSGS CLIENTNOTICES CLIENTCRAP CLIENTERRORS HILIGHTS
<NexusGS> ignore #ubuntu-classroom CRAP NOTICES SNOTES CTCPS JOINS PARTS QUITS KICKS MODES WALLOPS NICKS DCC DCCMSGS CLIENTNOTICES CLIENTCRAP CLIENTERRORS HILIGHTS
<NexusGS> hi all
<isk> ignore #ubuntu-classroom CRAP NOTICES SNOTES CTCPS JOINS PARTS QUITS KICKS MODES WALLOPS NICKS DCC DCCMSGS CLIENTNOTICES CLIENTCRAP CLIENTERRORS HILIGHTS
<afro22> what utc time is it?
<nuvolari> 13:38
<afro22> thx
<nuvolari> np
<jrib> ignore #ubuntu-classroom FAILED_IGNORES
<Lops88> ma Ã¨ qui?..se Ã¨ sei nn dovrebbe essere gia iniziato?
<Tolchi> 14:00 UTC now... 1 hour to go.... still
<x_dimitri> yay
<remfarkas> patiente is a great feature in life ^^
<Lops88> ok thx
<milos_> Omg, I'm so nervous.
<esters> milos_: Why ?
<stefanlsd> nervous or excited?
<milos_> My first time, yeah excited :)
<esters> Like loosing your geek virginity :)
<milos_> hhh
<stefanlsd> milos_, oh yeah. its great. it can be long thou, so dont worry bout having to miss some and read the logs online later.
<milos_> yeah, great everything is logged
<weboide> is it legally possible to reuse the channel logs, modify them and post it on a website for example? or there is privacy/licence problem?
<jrib> weboide: "The content of all Ubuntu channels, whether official logs or otherwise, are considered to be in the public domain" https://help.ubuntu.com/community/InternetRelayChat
<weboide> okay, so i could reuse them, and just tell i got it from #ubuntu-classroom at freenode.
<jrib> weboide: sure, that sounds fine
<snuxoll> did you not read 'public domain' ?
<snuxoll> no need to say where they were from, even
<weboide> Well i want people to know about the ubuntu-classroom anyway ; )
<weboide> I might make something like a sum up of some classes, and post it on my website, and tell that they can visit #ubuntu-classroom if they want to participate
<weboide> thanks for your help jrib and snuxoll  : )
<snuxoll> :)
<nuvolari> hey morgs
<morgs> hey nuvolari!
<nuvolari> morgs: i think i studied enough for today... so i might sit in a couple of sessions here :P
<morgs> :)
<matthewi>  /ignore #ubuntu-classroom CRAP NOTICES SNOTES CTCPS JOINS PARTS QUITS KICKS MODES WALLOPS NICKS DCC DCCMSGS CLIENTNOTICES CLIENTCRAP CLIENTERRORS HILIGHTS
<djiezes> classroom starts in 20 minutes, right?
<milos_> djiezes, yup
<djiezes> okay, thanks. just making sure with the timetable and all.
<Odd-rationale> what's the question room again?
<esters> See the topic Odd-rationale ;)
<manolis> today is the big day?
<djiezes> I'm reading up on this: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom/Guidelines
<matthewi>  /ignore #ubuntu-classroom CRAP NOTICES SNOTES CTCPS JOINS PARTS QUITS KICKS MODES WALLOPS NICKS DCC DCCMSGS CLIENTNOTICES CLIENTCRAP CLIENTERRORS HILIGHTS
<Fierelin> no, 6th nov will be
<esters> Maybe
<esters> Ya, when Mark shows up :)
<Odd-rationale> matthewi: you need to take out the space in front...
<manolis> thx
<matthewi> thx
<zever>  /ignore #ubuntu-classroom CRAP NOTICES SNOTES CTCPS JOINS PARTS QUITS KICKS MODES WALLOPS NICKS DCC DCCMSGS CLIENTNOTICES CLIENTCRAP CLIENTERRORS HILIGHTS
<Lapaj> ï»¿/ignore #ubuntu-classroom CRAP NOTICES SNOTES CTCPS JOINS PARTS QUITS KICKS MODES WALLOPS NICKS DCC DCCMSGS CLIENTNOTICES CLIENTCRAP CLIENTERRORS HILIGHTS
<zever> that doesn't work
<Odd-rationale> Lapaj: take out the space in front..
<Lapaj> oh sorry
<Odd-rationale> oops.. zever i meant...
<zever> Odd-rationale: done, but then whole channel gets ignored
<Fierelin> zever, except normal talk
<zever> hmm, let's see
<afro22> ï»¿ï»¿/ignore #ubuntu-classroom CRAP NOTICES SNOTES CTCPS JOINS PARTS QUITS KICKS MODES WALLOPS NICKS DCC DCCMSGS CLIENTNOTICES CLIENTCRAP CLIENTERRORS HILIGHTS
<zever> ok, xchat gave misleading information: #ubuntu-classroom added to ignorelist
<djiezes> it'd be great if we could ignore the wrongly typed /ignore messages ;)
<manolis> how many users will come?
<Maurici1> Hello good morining for all
<Fierelin> manolis, perhaps "more than nine thousands" ) not known exactly
<snuxoll> if users_coming > 900: party
<Odd-rationale> i edited the wiki page to take out the traailing space in the /ignore .... command...
<djiezes> so, for clarity, if we have a question, we pose that in #ubuntu-classroom-chat , with the prefix "QUESTION: ... " ? right?
<Odd-rationale> *leading space
<weboide> Odd-rationale: can you give a link to that wiki ?
<Odd-rationale> weboide: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/JoiningIn
<weboide> Odd-rationale: thx
<Lapaj> ï»¿/ignore #ubuntu-classroom CRAP NOTICES SNOTES CTCPS JOINS PARTS QUITS KICKS MODES WALLOPS NICKS DCC DCCMSGS CLIENTNOTICES CLIENTCRAP CLIENTERRORS HILIGHTS
<tuspak> hi
<telebovich1> ;-)
<Tolchi> ???
<Tolchi> ???
<isk> test
<djiezes> i hear you isk ;)
<esters> 1..2..3
<tuspak> :)
<jcastro> Welcome everyone
<jcastro> Straightening a few things out on our end, we'll begin shortly!
<esters> \o/
<Fierelin> old classic netsplit )
<snuxoll> where would we be without them?
<Slugg> /ignore #ubuntu-classroom CRAP NOTICES SNOTES CTCPS JOINS PARTS QUITS KICKS MODES WALLOPS NICKS DCC DCCMSGS CLIENTNOTICES CLIENTCRAP CLIENTERRORS HILIGHTS
<snuxoll> oh, right
<Maurici1> Ok, jcastro...I still on line
<jono> hi all!
<BB-wolf> hi jono
<Tech00> morning *sips coffee*
<rgreening> o/
<jono> sorry I am a little late
<jono> hope everyone is great today
<dholbach> everybody hug Jono!
<jono> all set for he greatness that is Ubuntu Open Week?
 * dholbach hugs jono :-)
 * lool hugs jono
<Tech00> *hugs Jono*
 * techno_freak hugs jono 
<isk> where is the chat room to be found, plz
<jono> ok, welcome to Ubuntu Open Week -  a week of tuition sessions about how to get involved in the Ubuntu community
<jcastro> isk: #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<jono> the reason why we put this week together is to make it as easy as possible to join the Ubuntu commmunity
<jono> we want to ensure that getting involved in any part of the Ubuntu community is simple, easy and as fun as possible
<jono> as such, every release cycle we put together a week a long of IRC sessions that cover a huge range of sessions
<jono> so, the first thing you should do is go and look at the range of sessions available at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
<jono> it will show you all the different sessions and when they are running
<jono> but now, let me explain how it works:
<jono> every Ubuntu Open Week session takes place in #ubuntu-classroom (here)
<jono> this is where the person running the session will lead it
<jono> but also join #ubuntu-classroom-chat too - that is where you can discuss the session as it runs
<jono> throughout the session you will no doubt want to ask questions, and questions are encouraged
<jono> to do this, ask your question in #ubuntu-classroom-chat and begin it with 'QUESTION'
<jono> example:
<jono> QUESTION: Why is metal so great?
<BUGabundo_work> QUESTION: what's the topic today ?
<jono> and then, when questions appear, the leader of the session will paste it in here and answer
<jono> e.g.:
<jono> <bhk_f> QUESTION: Why is metal so great?
<jono> bhk_f, energy my friend, energy :)
<jono> don't ask questions in h ere
<jono> they should be asked in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<jono> so that is how Open Week works, its pretty simple - just hang here and enjoy the session, and then ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<jono> as the week progresses, each session will be archived and logged too and logs will be placed on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
<jono> <billybigrigger> QUESTION: why isnt #ubuntu-classroom moderated and only giving voice to the speaker? maybe then the speaker wont get off topic with people asking questions in there and not in here
<jono> billybigrigger, we do that if it gets a little loud in here, but only if needed
<jono> you can see how quiet it has been here so far :)
<jono> so, I just want to talk a few mins about our community
<jono> and I want to talk about why we run events such as Ubuntu Open Week
<CuriousMe> holding my breath jono :-)
<jono> as many of you will have heard me babble on about before, I see community as a collection of dots - different sets of people with different interests and skills
<jono> each of us has something we can bring to Ubuntu
<jono> some of us can write code, or produce packages, or do tests, or organise events, or write documentation, or translate things...each of us has a brick we can place into the wall
<jono> at Canonical I lead the community team (which are known in the community and Canonical as the Horsemen), and my goals with the team are to ensure the community is as diverse as possible, encouraging participation at every level, that it is as intuitive and simple to get involved as possible, and that people have a great time while here
<jono> we want everyone who gets involved in Ubuntu to also feel an unbridled sense of family - a sense that we are all on the same road, heading in the same direction, moving to the same rhythm
<jono> this is in essence the greatest attribute of community - when we are all moving to the same rhythm, anything is possible
<jono> the trick...is coordination
<thiebaude> Hi jono
<jono> coordination is the key to successful community - a well coordinated, engaged community can achieve things like...resolving bug #1
<jono> so with this in mind, we have looked at pretty much every aspect of the community contribution process to make it easier
<jono> a few examples:
<jono>  * we have wanted to make bugs more manageable distributable through the community, so we created 5-A-Day
<jono>  * we have been doing extensive work in bug workflow and optimisation, producing resources such as the Ubuntu Upstream Report
<jono>  * we have been working to grow our developer base with MOTU, improving the sponsorship queue, developer documentation, and more
<jono>  * we want to help educate people in how to contribute to Ubuntu, so we have organised events such as Ubuntu Open Week, packaging jams, bug jams and more
<jono>  * later in the cycle we organise another week of IRC sessions called 'Ubuntu Developer Week', which is like UBuntu Open Week, but focused on technical developer sessions only
<jono>  * we want to make Ubuntu more visible in terms of content and education, so we created the YouTube Ubuntu Developer Channel
<jono> and there are many, many more initiatives and programmes going on to grow our wickedly cool community
<jono> so, I am not going to babble on for too long this morning and will answer any questions you may have about Ubuntu, this week or anything else - send your questions to #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<jono> <kippy> QUESTION: Can we comment on the happening in #ubuntu-classroom in #ubuntu-classroom or are those supposed to be here aswell?
<jono> kippy, nope, just in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<jono> <BUGabundo> QUESTION: what's the topic today ?
<jono> BUGabundo, check https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
<jono> <BB-wolf> QUESTION: why is open week held largely during business hours in the USA? Can't we diversify the times for global participation?
<jono> BB-wolf, heh, its not business hours on the West Coast!
<jono> BB-wolf, we hold Ubuntu Open Week in largely European afternoon hours as it hits most timezones with reasonable convenience, but it will mean some people in the world having to get up a bit early or stay a bit late
<jono> <yusuf_> QUESTION: WHat is bug #1
<jono> yusuf_, https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/1
<ubot5`> jono: Error: Could not parse data returned by Launchpad: The read operation timed out
<jono> heh
<jono> this is the very first bug that Mark registered in Ubuntu
<jono> Microsoft has a majority market share
<Milyardo> I can confirm this bug
<jono> this is one of the bugs we really want to solve :)
<jono> <esters> QUESTION: Why #1 is so important ?
<jono> esters, well, bug #1 is not the  sole reason many of us work on Ubuntu, but the  huge Microsoft majority market share is a significant reason why as their majority actually makes computing less accessible to people
<jono> there is a lot of research and documentation available which outlines why, and  recommend you check it out
<jono> <telebovich1> QUESTION: why the ubuntu website is updated slowly? somebody is translating ubuntu to my language, but he is not in the list.
<jono> telebovich, I assume you mean Launchpad's Rosetta tool - those translations are updated periodically - I  recommend you come to Make Rooney's session on Friday - he will be talking translations there
<jono> <djiezes> QUESTION: What is the best way to start helping as a non-programmer? What projects are most open to newbies?
<jono> djiezes, lots and lots of ways!
<jono> if you want to talk to people, you can join our LoCo teams
<jono> or if you want to contribute to software, you can translate, or write documentation, or do testing, or do bug triage
<jono> each of these teams needs help, I think the best thing to do is to figure out what your main interest is, join the team and have a go :)
<jono> <telebovich1> QUESTION: What is 5-A-DAY
<jono> 5-A-Day (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/5-A-Day) is a programme we kicked off to help spread the load with bug triage
<jono> the idea is fairly simple - everyone who participates in 5-A-Day helps weith five bugs every day
<jono> this can be triaging a bug, helping to explain how to reproduce the bug or something else
<jono> see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/5-A-Day for more details
<jono> 5-A-Day has been a rocking success and has seen consistent growth :)
<jono> <techno_freak> QUESTION: Many people are quite wary to jump into an already busy, highly active community. In such a situation, how do you think a very new entrant into Ubuntu communtiy can start his contributions? I have heard lot of people say "I want to contribute, but don't know where to start?"
<jono> techno_freak, the best way to get involved is to just get involved - I know it sounds obvious, but I feel the Ubuntu community is such a warm and welcoming place, that anyone can get involved and  if you make some mistakes, we expect that
<jono> the hardest part is figuring out what you want to do and where you can contribute
<jono> if anyone is uncertain, email me at jono AT ubuntu DOT com and I will help :)
<Kolyan_ufalug_> jono: When in Ubuntu there will be a control centre of system with set of utilities which can work both in GUI, and in the console?
<jono> Kolyan_ufalug_, not here please, ask in #ubuntu
<Kolyan_ufalug_> Ok, thanks
<jono> <CuriousMe> QUESTION: how do a programmer start contributing?
<jono> CuriousMe, a great way is to fix bugs - many programmers like to write patches that fix bugs so that our packages can apply them and upload them to the archive
<jono> we also have people working on websites such as Brainstorm, contributing unit tests in the QA team and much more
<jono> we have plenty of areas in which coders can get involved :)
<jono> <BB-wolf> QUESTION: why is there no explanation of what these talks are each about? (Ex: Ubuntu behind the scenes)
<jono> it explains it on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
<jono> any last q's ?
<jono> cybernoutles> QUESTION : is there any thought about how to speedup ubuntu, there was some news about it getting slower and slower, is there a way to see how the disk layout of the systems install is affecting the performance, might we need to have dynamic loading of kernel modules, whats needed to speed things up?
<jono> cybernoutles, boot time is a key goal for Jaunty and we want to work on some real improvements there
<jono> so it is planned for part of the next cycle
<jono> <kippy> QUESTION: for the uninitiated, can we have a clear outline of say first n steps to take to start contributing? like do we need to register for some accounts or find a mentor or other questions on similar lines, as someone who has been trying to get started i feel its all too fragmented to start and not so intuitive
<jono> kippy, so the first thing to do is to get an idea of which team you want to join, when you have picked a team, I recommend you join their mailing list (http://lists.ubuntu.com) and join their IRC channel if they have one - then write a message asking how to get involved
<jono> this is a great way of making contact with the team and a quick introduction to getting involved :)
<jono> ok, I think we ar done
<jono> are done
<jono> thanks everyone, and  have a great Ubuntu Open Week!
<jono> woo! :)
<jcastro> Alright thanks jono
<jcastro> we're going to give everyone ~4 minutes or so until the top of the hour
<jcastro> and then we'll kick off with the next session
<jcastro> which is Ubuntu Behind the Scenes with Nicolas Valcarcel
<jcastro> ok nxvl, take it away!
<nxvl> here
<nxvl> \o/
<nxvl> who is here to know how ubuntu works under the hood?
<BlueCamel> +1
<esters> I'm here :)
<mrooney> o/
<vestera> i am
<nxvl> ok, let's start
<sloopy> <- has seen most of /etc in vim
<CuriousMe> ++
<nxvl> as you might know ubuntu is sponsored by Canonical, and has some Canonical employees working on the distro
<nxvl> but a lot of the work is driven by the community effort
<nxvl> we are not much people in Canonical to manage all the weight of the development
<nxvl> also
<nxvl> we have releases every 6 months
<nxvl> without exceptions
<nxvl> but, how do we do that?
<nxvl> it's a matter of organization and well marked stages on the development
<nxvl> we can't just do whatever we want all the time
<nxvl> we have freezes, milestones and all kind of things that help us have an organized and well structured development
<nxvl> but first we need to understand what our goals are
<nxvl> first thing in the Ubuntu pholosiphy is that it should be available for everyone
<nxvl> any normal user should be able to use it without much pain
<nxvl> also not so normal user should be able too
<nxvl> as gandmas
<nxvl> they are don't understand computers as easy as most of ut
<nxvl> and we need to make our software as easy as we can so they can understand it
<nxvl> also we have a lot of effort in accesibility
<nxvl> that means that there is a whole team working on maintaining toold for people with disorders (as blindness) to be able to use it
<nxvl> also we have a lot of efforts on documentation
<nxvl> so people can find answers easlily
<nxvl> another point of the ubuntu philosiphy is that it should be available in your language
<nxvl> for that we have a large number of translators working on the software
<nxvl> 11:07 < Kolyan_ufalug_> QUESTION: When in Ubuntu there will be a control centre  of system with set of utilities which can work both in  GUI, and in the console?
<nxvl> Kolyan_ufalug_: that a good question and i don't have the answer right now
<nxvl> Kolyan_ufalug_: last UDS we talk about such a tool for server administration that can be easily extended to the desktop
<nxvl> Kolyan_ufalug_: our goal is to have it for 10.04, our next LTS
<knome>     *
<nxvl> Kolyan_ufalug_: you can check more info on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuCentralizedServiceAdministrator
<nxvl> help is welcomed
<nxvl> you can contact me for this, since i'm the one behind it
<nxvl> so
<nxvl> we were talking about translations
<nxvl> we have a lot of people working on it
<nxvl> most of that work is being held by LoCo teams
<nxvl> that organize translation sprint
<enterneo> is there a pidgin PPA for Intrepid Ibex?
<nxvl> for that we use launchpad
<nxvl> translation.launchpad.net
<nxvl> so it's easier for people wanting to help
<cyphermox> actually, it's translations.launchpad.net
<nxvl> they don't need to handle any code or work directly with .po files, just with strings
<nxvl> cyphermox: thank you!
 * nxvl HUGS cyphermox 
<nxvl> so
<nxvl> let's dive into the process of a release
<nxvl> 11:14 < bcurtiswx> QUESTION: how much work is being put forward to integrate  things like instant messaging and video/voice chat into the  gnome user interface (like the FUSA for example)
<nxvl> bcurtiswx: i don't really know, i'm a server guy not a desktop one
<nxvl> but i think gnome put a lot of effort on that
<igor_>     *
<igor_>       /ignore #ubuntu-classroom CRAP NOTICES SNOTES CTCPS JOINS PARTS QUITS KICKS MODES WALLOPS NICKS DCC DCCMSGS CLIENTNOTICES CLIENTCRAP CLIENTERRORS HILIGHTS
<nxvl> and empathy is being able to have some video and voice support
<nxvl> i haven't try it yet, but i've read it has
<bcurtiswx> nxvl, ty
<nxvl> so
<nxvl> the release process
<nxvl> as i said before, we have a release every 6 month, with no exceptions
<nxvl> and we have strongly marked stages in the development
<nxvl> all of that stages are hardly influenced by the Gnome Calendar
<nxvl> as we have Gnome as our primarly desktop we somehow depend of them
<nxvl> (if someone send me a private mesage please resend)
<nxvl> 11:17 < cybernoutles> QUESTION : how would ubuntu server fit into the new idea  of "cloud computing" can ubuntu server run services like  programs , or total ubuntu desktops from a server to an  terminal over the net?
<nxvl> cybernoutles: we are putting efforts on that
<nxvl> so, yes it will fit in the near future if it doesn't fit now, but a better place to ask that is in mathiaz's session
<nxvl> which is tomorrow at 18 UTC
<igor_>     *
<igor_>       /ignore #ubuntu-classroom CRAP NOTICES SNOTES CTCPS JOINS PARTS QUITS KICKS MODES WALLOPS NICKS DCC DCCMSGS CLIENTNOTICES CLIENTCRAP CLIENTERRORS HILIGHTS
<nxvl> <sloopy> does this mandated release schedule ever compromise the quality  of a given release?
<nxvl> igor_: please stop that
<nxvl> sloopy: no it doesn't and you will see why in a bit :D
<nxvl> so
<nxvl> the first stage: Planification
<nxvl> we start a development cycle planificating what are we going to do
<nxvl> we propose new features and give them a strategic priority in the distribution
<nxvl> thos proposal are being done by the community using brainstorm (brainstorm.ubuntu.com)
<nxvl> but they need a developer to adopt them so they can be done
<nxvl> actually anyone can adopt an idea and develop/deploy it
<nxvl> and then it will become a developer
<nxvl> so if you have some ideas send them to brainstorm
<nxvl> and develop/deploy them
<nxvl> 11:21 < kippy> QUESTION: Like UbuntuOpenWeek and UbuntuDeveloperWeek do we have  some sessions that help the users learn how ubuntu works (as an  operating system as opposed to community)?  Don't you think this  kind of session that explains the inner workings of Ubuntu as an  operating system, that would help breed geeks who can contribute  to certain sections of the community better?
<nxvl> well, that's why UbuntuOpenWeek and UbuntuDeveloperWeek are for
<nxvl> we also have LoCo team running events locally
<nxvl> and some QA sessions
<nxvl> and ubuntu classroom
<nxvl> we try to cover everything
<nxvl> and if we don't feel free to run some or send us your ideas to cover them
<nxvl> :D
<nxvl> 11:28 < kippy> QUESTION (FOLLOWUP): nxvl, have lots of requests for such  sessions, where to post them?
<nxvl> you should ping our ubuntu-classroom dean and discuss them
<nxvl> sfor that james_w will we your guy
<nxvl> we also have ubuntu-classroom mailing list
<nxvl> so
<nxvl> about planification
<nxvl> we meet each 6 months on the Ubuntu Developer Submit to discuss our ideas
<knome> nxvl, *planning :]
<nxvl> this time we are going to have it on MountainView California, and google offices
<nxvl> knome: yes, that, sorry
<nxvl> :D
<nxvl> not native english speaker
<nxvl> it will be from 8th to 12 December
<nxvl> everyone is welcome to come
<nxvl> it's an open event
<nxvl> where you can help plan Jaunty (out next release)
<nxvl> we have 1 hour BoF session
<nxvl> where we discuss the proposed ideas, after that discussion we write the blueprints
<nxvl> and start developing new feautures
<nxvl> we have that every 6 months as i said before
 * x_dimitri is quite surprised that nxvl is not a native english speaker
<nxvl> and if you aren't able to travel you can always go into the IRC channels we have for UDS and/or use VOIP
<nxvl> or the streaming of the sessions
<Tolchi> ty nxvl
<nxvl> so you can hear everything we discuss and/or give us ideas comments by IRC
<Tolchi> gracias nicolas
<nxvl> 11:33 < cybernoutles> QUESTION : how much effect  does ubuntu brainstorm have  on the planning of next releases? Is that the best way to  influence the way ubuntu goes, or are there other options
<nxvl> cybernoutles: a lot, before UDS and while we wait for new archives to open, we do brainstorm triaging
<ciprian_topala> ignore #ubuntu-classroom CRAP
<nxvl> where we see what new ideas are posted
<nxvl> and we develop the list of the best to be taken in account and discuss them at UDS
<nxvl> so
<nxvl> after we have plan, discuss on UDS and write down the spects
<nxvl> the development starts
<nxvl> first stage of the development is Merging
<nxvl> where we sync our repos with debian ones
<nxvl> for that we take the package we haven't touch from debian, that's called a sync
<nxvl> or we take the new debian package, patch it with our changes and upload the new ubuntu version, that's called a merge
<nxvl> we also find us at some points where we have a modified ubuntu package that has all of it's changes already applied by upstream or by debian
<nxvl> then we sync them too
<nxvl> the idea is to have almost all the package just synced
<nxvl> that save us a lot of work we can use in another thing
<nxvl> so if you make a patch or a change it would be a really good idea to send it back to upstream
<nxvl> 11:37 < bcurtiswx> QUESTION: (for testers), is it at this point (the debain  sync) that the most breakage can happen?
<nxvl> bcurtiswx: yes
<nxvl> :D
<nxvl> in the merge time the development release breakes a lot
<nxvl> so, after merges time the feature development start
<nxvl> (actually it starts in the merge stage, but you got the idea)
<nxvl> at this point we can't sync or merge with debian anymore
<nxvl> and you will need to ask for a Freeze exception to to so
<nxvl> just in the cases that it's needed
<nxvl> in this stage we start developing the new feature discussed at UDS and with an approved blueprint
<nxvl> after that we have the feature freeze
<nxvl> where no more development can be done
<nxvl> at that stage almost all the package must be usable and in a good shape
<nxvl> this goes in the 17th week of the development
<nxvl> then we start to fix bugs
<nxvl> 11:41 < telebovich> QUESTION: Why Ubuntu has 6 month developing cycle?
<nxvl> telebovich: because Gnome is
<nxvl> :D
<nxvl> 11:41 < weboide> QUESTION: when is situated the beta release?
<nxvl> weboide: i will got into that soon
<nxvl> 11:42 < Yasumoto> QUESTION: How often is the Debian freeze broken to allow for  new syncs? Is it relatively easy?
<nxvl> Yasumoto: you mean debian freeze expetions?
<nxvl> exceptions*
<Yasumoto> yep
<nxvl> it's not a hard process
<nxvl> you just need to have a rationale of why
<nxvl> for universe it's quite easy
<nxvl> for main it's a little harder
<nxvl> but, no it's not hard or painful at all
<nxvl> so, then we start developing new stuff
<Yasumoto> alright, sweet. makes sense, thanks :)
<nxvl> and we have the Ubuntu Developer Sprint
<nxvl> for that spring only the developers that need to finish something are supposed to attend
<nxvl> it's a week where canonical put all the developers together to don't get any distraction and finish their stuff for the release
<nxvl> after that we have the feature freeze
<nxvl> where no new features can go in
<nxvl> that's on the 17th week as i said before
<nxvl> 11:45 < Tina_Russell> QUESTION: How much of Ubuntu is synced back into Debian  in turn?
<nxvl> Tina_Russell: all that fits
<nxvl> Tina_Russell: and we try to make it all
<nxvl> after the feature freeze we start hunting bugs
<nxvl> and 2 weeks after that we have the User interface freeze
<nxvl> where interfaces can't be changed
<nxvl> so the documentation team can take screenshots for their documents
<nxvl> :D
<nxvl> 11:46 < igor_> QUESTION: How do you manage packages that are orphaned in Debian  ?
<nxvl> igor_: we fix them and send patches back
<nxvl> the next freeze in place is the Beta Freeze
<nxvl> wich is the 21th week
<nxvl> after that we start to fix high priority bugs
<nxvl> and start getting the final release into shape
<nxvl> 11:47 < telebovich> QUESTION: if the team find some improvement that worth to  add in the version after freez time, do they change the  code or UI?
<nxvl> telebovich: you need a freeze exception with a rationale that worth it
<nxvl> 11:48 < syslogd> QUESTION: Ubuntu Mobile is based on GNOME, right? Do the  changes reflux into the main project (-> GNOME) so that there  are going to be other distributions that focus on those mobile  computers?
<nxvl> syslogd: AFAIK, yes
<nxvl> 11:48 < xjazz> QUESTION: What about kde-devel guys. Is comfortable they to  adapt for planing, depend on ubuntu and gnome schedule?
<nxvl> xjazz: i think they are, yes
<nxvl> so
<nxvl> after beta freeze we start testing
<nxvl> we have a beta release, then a RC and images being builded for massive testing
<nxvl> 11:49 < bhk_f> QUESTION: what kind of changes is ubuntu doing to vanilla kernel
<nxvl> bhk_f: don't really know i don't touch the kernel at all
<nxvl> then a lot of effort on testing is being done
<nxvl> so we can be sure all the worst bugs are fixed
<nxvl> then, we have the final freeze
<nxvl> where only showstopper bugs are fixed
<nxvl> and a lot of testing is being done
<nxvl> and then we have a release
<nxvl> all the parties start all around the world
<nxvl> and we are have nice CD's comming to our houses
<thiebaude> yup
<nxvl> but, what about bugs in the stable release?
<nxvl> we have a process called SRU's
<nxvl> which stands for Stable Release Update
<nxvl> that goes to the ubuntu-sru team, motu-sru and sru-verification teams
<nxvl> if we fix something in a stable release we need to ask for those teams to review it
<nxvl> and if they are accepted we can have it in our main repos
<thiebaude> QUESTION:has a SRU been done for 8.10?
<nxvl> thiebaude: yes, we already have some
<nxvl> :D
<nxvl> SRU's are mostly for security vulnerabilities, severe regressions
<nxvl> and user data lost
<nxvl> and all kind of ugly bugs
<thiebaude> nxvl:QUESTION:what is your ubuntu xpertise?
<nxvl> 11:51 < gourgi> QUESTION: if the high priority bugs aren't fix until final  release what happens next? do they are re-assigned for next  release ?
<nxvl> gourgi: that SRU's :D
<nxvl> 11:52 < igor_> QUESTION: Ubuntu aimed to be as synced to Debian as possible  (technicaly). Are there points available in the DFSG (Debian  Free Software Guideline) and/or the Social Contract that are not  synced with Ubuntu aims ?
<nxvl> igor_: we stick to DFSG for packaging our stuff with some exceptions
<nxvl> so almost all of our work is debian compilant
<nxvl> 11:54 < kippy> QUESTION: Like there is a problem with Intel 845 integrated  graphics chip (and many others) and compiz in 8.10, so according  to the cycle, can we hope to see a fix for this in 8.10 or do we  have to wait till jaunty
<nxvl> kippy: we can hope to get a fix, but that's kernel, so ask that question to ogasawara in next session
<nxvl> :D
<nxvl> thiebaude: i'm a server team guy
<nxvl> thiebaude: and a security guy
<thiebaude> nxvl:kewl
<nxvl> ok, so i think i have time for one more question
 * sebner winks the security guy :P
<nxvl> ogasawara: have i?
<nxvl> 11:56 < biomass> QUESTION: Is there a difference in preparing for a LTS release  compared to the releases inbetween LTS ?
<ogasawara> nxvl: go for it
<nxvl> biomass: oh yes, it is
<nxvl> biomass: for LTS we are more carefull on what we have into it
<nxvl> biomass: and we have a lot more of carefull on what new stuff to add to it
<nxvl> but for the schedule is the same
<thiebaude> nxvl:QUESTION:how long is 8.04 supported?
<nxvl> 11:57 < syslogd> QUESTION: Will there be a rolling-release version of Ubuntu?
<nxvl> syslogd: i don't get your question? how rolling-release?
<jcastro> let's wrap it up!
<nxvl> ok
<nxvl> i'm out of time
<nxvl> thank you guys for attending
<gouki> nxvl, why hasn't 8.04.2 been released yet?
<thiebaude> thank you,nxvl
<jcastro> ok thanks nxvl!
<tkoerfer> thanks
<Tolchi> gracias nxvl
<esters> Thx nxvl
<nxvl> let's give the channel to our lovely kernel QA girl!
<esters> \o/
<jcastro> Alright next up is Leann Ogasawara, who will talk about the kernel
<SplItz> ty nxvl
<Tolchi> girl???
<jcastro> quick announcement
<Tolchi> wow
<ogasawara> thanks nxvl!
<lool> gouki: 8.04.2 will be 6 months after .1, aronud January IIRC
<igor_> thanks nxvl
<bhk_f> pix or it didn't ....
 * snuxoll blinks
<esters> Happened
<jcastro> There is an added session on Wednesday at 2200 UTC - Training
<jcastro> so please check the schedule
<Maurici1> Thanks nxvl, was a great information about ubuntu...have a nice day
<jcastro> ok, ogasawara take it away, everyone else, please keep the channel clear
<ogasawara> Hi Everyone!
<thiebaude> ok
<CuriousMe> hello there
<ogasawara> Welcome to the session on Reporting and Fixing Kernel Bugs!
<Tolchi> hi
<ogasawara> My name is Leann Ogasawara and I work for Canonical as a member of the Ubuntu QA Team.  My primary focus is on the Ubuntu kernel bugs.
<thiebaude> hi
<ogasawara> I'd really like to spend the next hour highlighting some kernel bug reporting best practices and getting fixes incorporated into the Ubuntu kernel.
<ogasawara> If anyone has questions along the way, feel free to post them in #ubuntu-classroom-chat and I'll try to answer as many as I can.
<ogasawara> Let's gets started.
<ogasawara> Beginning with the Hardy Heron 8.04 release the Ubuntu kernel package naming convention in Launchpad changed from linux-source-2.6.xx to just linux.
<ogasawara> Ubuntu kernel bugs should be filed against the "linux" kernel package.  This can be done using the following link:
<ogasawara> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+filebug
<ogasawara> It's important to make sure the bug is filed against the linux package to help ensure it gets looked at by the kernel team.
<ogasawara> When filing a bug, please make sure the title of the bug report is descriptive.
<ogasawara> Don't use something like "Suspend Fails" or "Wireless is broken".
<drunkenkilla> ogasawara: Question: some notebooks have problems with the brightness for example the samsung and sony notebooks. i created a bug report but nothin happened. is this problem combined with the kernel or is it a driver problem of samsung...?
<gouki> drunkenkilla, questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat!
<ogasawara> drunkenkilla: ^^
<ogasawara> It's better to use for example "Suspend fails to resume on a Dell Inspiron 1420".
<drunkenkilla> ok sry^^
<ogasawara> Always include hardware or driver information in a kernel bug's title when applicable.
<ogasawara> The reason I say this is because kernel bugs are often hardware specific.
<ogasawara> Even though someone may be experiencing the same symptom of a bug, they should really open a new report if they have different hardware than the original bug reporter.
<ogasawara> Different hardware uses different drivers which likely require different fixes, hence the reason for separate bug reports.
<ogasawara> This is why I stress the importance of a descriptive bug title.  When something like "Suspend Fails" is used as the title, everyone with suspend/resume issues ends up subscribing to the bug.
<ogasawara> This invites others to post completely unrelated information to the bug.  Even worse, the bug will often get a flurry of "me too" comments posted.
<ogasawara> This results in impossible to follow bug reports which are not likely to get much attention from the kernel team.
<ogasawara> Also, please refrain from posting the "I think I'm having the same bug . . ." type of comments.  If someone is unsure if they have the same bug, open a new report.
<ogasawara> Hijacking another person's bug report is bad.
<ogasawara> We can always mark a bug as a duplicate of another bug later on.
<ogasawara> If someone does have the same bug but has nothing additional to add other than a "me too", please don't post a "me too" comment.
<ogasawara> Launchpad now has an +affectsmetoo functionality.  Just click on the "change" link next to "This bug doesn't affect me" under a bug's title.
<jcastro> Session details here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
<ogasawara> Also, be sure to subscribe to the bug to get notifications of any updates made to the bug.
<ogasawara> To subscribe to a bug, click on the "Subscribe/Unsubscribe" link on the right hand side of the bug report.
<ogasawara> For the bug's description, it's always great to include steps to reproduce the issue if possible.
* jcastro changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to Openweek, questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat please || Session details here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
<KarlsBerg87> someone have one AcerAspire one with ubuntu?
<ogasawara> This helps others to confirm they do indeed have the same bug.
<ogasawara> Additionally, it will help the developers debug the situation by either being able to reproduce the issue or get an idea what might be the root cause of the issue.
<ogasawara> Also, in the bug description it's great to mention if this is a regression or not.
<ogasawara> Specifically noting the most recent version of the kernel where the bug did not occur and the version where the bug was first introduced is helpful.
<ogasawara> This can help isolate the set of kernel patches which should be examined.
<ogasawara> With this version information a git bisect could also be used to determine the specific patch which introduced the regression.
<ogasawara> If a bug reporter is able to perform a git bisect, it's extremely helpful to the kernel team and very much appreciated.
<ogasawara> For those of you who don't know, git is the revision control system which is used by the upstream kernel as well as the Ubuntu kernel.  For more information on git refer to:
<ogasawara> http://www.kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/docs/
<ogasawara> Regarding the git bisect, it's basically a multi-step process to systematically narrow down a specific commit which introduced a regression.
<ogasawara> It involves a series of steps of marking a known "good" and "bad" kernel version and proceeding to build and test kernels.  It usually only takes a few iterations to narrow down a specific patch which is causing issues.
<ogasawara> For more information please refer to:
<ogasawara> http://www.kernel.org/doc/local/git-quick.html#bisect
<ogasawara> As a general rule of thumb, along with a good bug title and description, kernel bug reports should at a minimum include the following information:
<ogasawara>  * cat /proc/version_signature > version.log
<ogasawara>  * dmesg > dmesg.log
<ogasawara>  * sudo lspci -vvnn > lspci-vvnn.log
<ogasawara> /proc/version_signature lets us know the exact kernel version the bug is against.  It also helps us know that the most recent kernel available is being used.
<ogasawara> dmesg provides a log of kernel messages that often contain helpful debugging information for the kernel team.
<ogasawara> sudo lspci -vvnn lets us know about a system's hardware.
<ogasawara> When providing the above information, please be sure to *attach* each text file *separately*.
<ogasawara> Do not tar up the files, do not zip the files, do not paste the output directly as a comment.
<ogasawara> When developers are looking at numerous bugs each day this can get annoying having to untar files, unzip files, or expand comments to view debug output.
<ogasawara> Also, please please please follow directions when they're given.  If someone asks for the output of 'sudo lspci -vvnn' don't give the output of 'sudo lspci -vv'.
<ogasawara> I know it's silly that I have to specifically point this out, but it's amazing how many people fail to post the requested information or fail to report any information at all even when asked.
<ogasawara> I do understand that sometimes there are language barriers involved, but for the most part using english is a non issue.
<ogasawara> Some additional tips to also help the kernel team is to make sure bug reports are kept up to date.  Even a small comment that the issue still exists against the latest 2.6.xx-yy.zz kernel is useful.
<ogasawara> Also, when asked to test the latest development kernel, please don't be difficult and reply with "I can't believe you want me to test a newer kernel!  This bug is against Hardy, which is an LTS release so it should be fixed there!"
<ogasawara> We understand where the frustration is coming from, but the hostile remark does not help solve the bug.
<ogasawara> The fact of the matter is that before any kernel bug can qualify for a Stable Release Update, the bug must be confirmed as fixed in the actively developed kernel.
<ogasawara> Refer to http://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates for the Stable Release Update bug criteria and procedures.
<ogasawara> Also, if a bug has been resolved, don't be afraid to close the bug report.  Marking the bug "Fix Released" helps make the kernel team's (and bug control team's) triaging efforts one step easier.
<ogasawara> We can always use additional help triaging kernel bugs.
<ogasawara> The volume of kernel bugs can be daunting.  Especially considering the limited number of resources the kernel team has.
<ogasawara> The following wiki's are good starting places for those looking to get involved.
<ogasawara> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeamBugPolicies
<ogasawara> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingProcedures#Kernel
<ogasawara> The first link describes the general kernel team bug policy and the second link is a series of docs for help with debugging specific kernel issues.
<ogasawara> Ok, lets stop and field any questions you may have so far (remember to post them in #ubuntu-classroom-chat - I'll copy and reply to them here).
<ogasawara> just give me a sec to scroll back in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<ogasawara> <bhk_f> ogasawara: QUESTION: what to do about Greg-K-H's bitching about not enuff patches from someone@canonical
<ogasawara> bhk_f: all I can say is with the limited number of kernel devs we have we do our best to make sure our patches go upstream
<ogasawara> bhk_f: the kernel team is growing in numbers so we'll hopefully be able to contribute more in the future
<ogasawara> drunkenkilla> ogasawara: Question: some notebooks have problems with the brightness for example the samsung and sony notebooks. i created a bug report but nothin happened. is this problem combined with the kernel or is it a driver problem of samsung...?
<ogasawara> drunkenkilla: I'd have to take a look at the bug report, if you can ping me with the bug # in #ubuntu-bugs I'll be sure to take a look
<ogasawara> kippy> QUESTION: how do we know that a bug is for the kernel and not some other package?
<ogasawara> kippy: some common kernel bugs would be, kernel oops or panics
<ogasawara> kippy: complete system lock ups
<ogasawara> kippy: issues with suspend/resume or wifi would also typically be kernel related
<ogasawara> kippy: if in doubt, don't be afraid to ask in #ubuntu-bugs
<ogasawara> lord> QUESTION: what is the reason of kernel renaming?
<ogasawara> lord: basically to make things easier on the kernel team
<ogasawara> lord: having to track one package vs multiple packages is simpler
<ogasawara> lord: additionally it made it difficult to make sure bugs were carried forward when using the old naming convention
<ogasawara> Picklesworth> QUESTION: Is sorting out bug reports one of the reasons for the Ubuntu Hardware Database?
<ogasawara> Picklesworth: yes :)
<ogasawara> mbt> QUESTION:  Is there a way to give a "heads up" when the upstream kernel has a bug in it that needs to be worked around at the Ubuntu level so that we don't have something like the CD/DVD drive regression happen again and slip through a release?
<ogasawara> mbt: best way would be to open a Launchpad bug report but also notify myself and the kernel team in #ubuntu-kernel
<ogasawara> <angusthefuzz> ogasawara: QUESTION: How important are "tags" for kernel bugs?
<ogasawara> angusthefuzz: tags are very helpful with respect to kernel bugs
<ogasawara> angusthefuzz: I used them when we did the 2.6.27 kernel move to note any specific regressions
<ogasawara> angusthefuzz: there are also things like tagging bugs as bitesize for the simpler low hanging bugs that can be quickly resolved
<ogasawara> angusthefuzz:  we've even discussed tagging bugs with the driver being used
<ogasawara> angusthefuzz: I myself use the tags to search bugs in launchpad and I know the kernel team does as well
<ogasawara> angusthefuzz> ogasawara: Are those three required files enough to mark a bug confirmed in most cases?
<marrow> Hello everybody
<marrow> What did I miss?
<ogasawara> angusthefuzz: typically yes.
<jono> marrow, #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<andresmujica> marrow: please comments at #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<ogasawara> angusthefuzz: there are some exceptions, but in general those files should be present to mark a bug confirmed/triaged
<ogasawara> <Tina_Russell> QUESTION: What are some good ways to know if a bug is kernel-related or not?
<ogasawara> Tina_Russell: see answer above
<ogasawara> <lord> ogasawara: are you a kernel developer or just a manger? (i want to know ubuntu organization
<ogasawara> lord: I'm actually a member of the QA Team but work closely with the kernel team and primarily focus on the kernel bugs
<ogasawara> <tkoerfer> QUESTION why don't you wrap those information getters to one program and let it run every time the kernel crashes? or at least let the user start a programm to report this bug?
<ogasawara> tkoerfer: I recommend using apport to report your bug
<ogasawara> <bhk_f> ogasawara: also hows ubuntu kernel different from vanilla
<ogasawara> bhk_f: the kernel team tries to refrain from deviating from the upstream kernel as much as possible
<ogasawara> bhk_f: I'll touch on the upstream sync'ing process in a second
<ogasawara> ok, guys, I'll try to get to more of the questions at the end
<ogasawara> let's continue on
<ogasawara> So now what happens after a high quality kernel bug has been filed?  How is the kernel team notified?
<ogasawara> Bug reports which have been confirmed against the actively developed kernel, have provided all the necessary debugging information, and are ready for a kernel developer to immediately begin debugging should have their Status set to "Triaged".
<ogasawara> Along with setting the Status, the Importance of the bug should be set and the bug should also typically be assigned to the "ubuntu-kernel-team".
<mahesh_> i joined in late so i am not sure if this question has already been asked, but if it hasn't been then ... how significantly does the ubuntu kernel differ from the mainline kernel?
<ogasawara> mahesh_: please ask in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<ogasawara> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeamBugPolicies explains more about this bug policy.
<ogasawara> Now, here's where the fun starts.
<ogasawara> Knowing that the bug exists in the Ubuntu kernel, it's best to try and confirm the bug exists in the upstream kernel as well.
<ogasawara> If the bug is confirmed to also exist in the upstream kernel, we want to be sure to notify the upstream developers about the issue.
<ogasawara> The upstream kernel bug tracker can be found at http://bugzilla.kernel.org
<ogasawara> Be sure to apply the same best practices when submitting bugs upstream.
<ogasawara> A bug watch can also be added to the Launchpad bug report to monitor the upstream bug report.
<ogasawara> To add a bug watch, click on the "Also affects project" link in the Launchpad bug report.  It's located under a bug's task table.
<ogasawara> Then paste the upstream bug link in the "I have the URL for the upstream bug:" text box.
<ogasawara> Click the "Add to Bug Report" button, and the bug watch should be set.
<mahesh_> oops! I
<ogasawara> All subscribers to the bug should receive email notification for any changes in the upstream bug report's status or importance.
<mahesh_> am sorry
<ogasawara> Getting kernel bugs confirmed and reported upstream is definitely an area where improvements can be made.
<ogasawara> Part of these improvements depend upon the Ubuntu kernel team making it easier for bug reporters to test the upstream kernel.
<ogasawara> This is why there are plans for the kernel team to provide an upstream kernel package which will allow bug reporters to easily install and test the upstream kernel.
<ogasawara> I think this will greatly help the upstream bug identification process.
* jcastro changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Current Session: Reporting and Fixing Kernel Bugs | Welcome to Openweek, questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat please || Session details here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
<ogasawara> I would anticipate this being available sometime during the Jaunty development cycle.
<ogasawara> However, for the time being bug reporters will still have to compile the upstream kernel from source.
<ogasawara> I know building the upstream kernel may sound like a scary task, but believe me it's actually quite simple.
<ogasawara> The following wiki documents this process:
<ogasawara> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/GitKernelBuild
<ogasawara> Another advantage to testing the upstream kernel is that the bug may in fact already be fixed upstream.  This is the ideal situation.
<ogasawara> If the specific upstream patch to be pulled in can be identified, definitely post that information to the bug report.
<ogasawara> Otherwise, a comment that this issue is resolved in a specific upstream kernel version is still helpful.
<ogasawara> During each development cycle the Ubuntu kernel is rebased with each of the upstream kernel release candidates until the final upstream kernel release is made for a specific version.
<ogasawara> At that point, the Ubuntu kernel usually stops rebasing with the upstream kernel and will then cherrypick any additional patches from upstream into the Ubuntu kernel.
<ogasawara> The patches which are cherrypicked typically represent fixes to resolve kernel bugs that have been reported.
<ogasawara> Patches continue to be cherrypicked until the Ubuntu kernel freeze, which is usually a few weeks prior to the final release.
<ogasawara> Now, how can someone ensure that the upstream patch will indeed get pulled into the Ubuntu kernel prior to the kernel freeze?
<ogasawara> The best approach would be to inquire about the bug on the FreeNode IRC server in the #ubuntu-kernel channel.
<ogasawara> Additionally, feel free to ping me directly about it.  I should be in the #ubuntu-kernel channel as well.
<ogasawara> We'll make sure we track the bug accordingly and can set the bug's milestone to make sure it stays on the radar of the Ubuntu kernel team.
<ogasawara> Now what about the case where a patch for the bug exists but it's neither in the upstream kernel nor the Ubuntu kernel?
<ogasawara> First, confirming that the patch does indeed resolve the bug is important.
<ogasawara> This does require knowing how to apply a patch and compile the kernel.
<ogasawara> I gave a reference for building the upstream kernel earlier.
<ogasawara> Applying a patch is the same whether using the upstream kernel source of the Ubuntu kernel source.
<ogasawara> The patch command is typically of the form:
<ogasawara> patch -p1 < patch_file.txt
<ogasawara> To find out more about the patch utility, refer to the man page.
<ogasawara> If the patch is going to be built and tested using the Ubuntu kernel source, the following document describes the process of how to build the Ubuntu kernel:
<ogasawara> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Kernel/Compile
<ogasawara> Building the Ubuntu kernel uses a slightly different set of commands than building the upstream kernel.
<ogasawara> This is because the Ubuntu kernel source provides some additional Ubuntu specific scripts to help build the Ubuntu kernel.
<ogasawara> Assuming the testing proves successful and the patch was applied to the Ubuntu kernel, contact the Ubuntu kernel team on the kernel-team mailing list:
<ogasawara> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/kernel-team
<ogasawara> The kernel team monitors the traffic to the mailing list quite closely.
<ogasawara> Patches need to be reviewed before being accepted so contacting the kernel team using the mailing list is better than using IRC in this scenario.
<ogasawara> When sending a patch to the mailing list be sure to follow a few simple rules.
<ogasawara> 1) Mention the Launchpad bug report.
<ogasawara> 2) Summarize the issue and why the patch resolves it.
<ogasawara> 3) Comment that the patch has been tested and confirmed to resolve the issue.
<ogasawara> 4) Be sure to note which kernel version the patch was tested with.
<ogasawara> 5) Inline the patch to the email.  Inlining the patch allows for the kernel team to immediately review the patch in the context of the email.  In addition to inlining the patch, I usually also attach it as well.
<ogasawara> 6) If there's no response after a week, feel free to follow up with the email again.
<ogasawara> If the patch gets accepted into the Ubuntu kernel and does not exist upstream, the Ubuntu kernel team will try to push these patches upstream for review and consideration as well.
<ogasawara> It's a lot of extra work for the Ubuntu kernel team to maintain out of tree (ie out of upstream) patches.
<ogasawara> As a result, they try to make sure patches get incorporated into the upstream kernel.
<ogasawara> Getting patches accepted upstream is in everyone's best interest.
<ogasawara> Everyone benefits from the fix being upstream, not just Ubuntu users.
<ogasawara> It also avoids patches accidentally being dropped and a bug reappearing.
<ogasawara> Now what about the final case of a bug being fixed in the current development release of Ubuntu but still existing in a previous Ubuntu release?
<ogasawara> This is where the Stable Release Update policy is taken into consideration.  http://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates
<ogasawara> If the bug does qualify for a Stable Release Update, a release nomination for the bug will be opened and approved.
<ogasawara> If the bug does not qualify for a Stable Release Update, the bug's task table will typically reflect that it's been fixed against the actively developed kernel but will not be fixed as an SRU.
<ogasawara> At a minimum, this should be reflected as a comment in the bug.
<ogasawara> Only certain individuals have the ability to approve release nominations.
<ogasawara> Once approved, the Ubuntu kernel team will try to patch the corresponding kernel with the fix and then the kernel will get uploaded into the -proposed Ubuntu repository.
<ogasawara> -proposed is basically a testing bed for any packages containing updates being considered for a Stable Release Update.
<ogasawara> I'd encourage you to attend the "Verifying Stable Update (SRU) bugfixes" open week session later this week for more information and how to help out.
<ogasawara> As I had mentioned before, the Ubuntu kernel team does have a limited number of resources.  So it is unfortunately the case that not all kernel bugs will get fixed during a given release cycle.
<ogasawara> However, by submitting high quality bug reports, it definitely speeds up the process for when the kernel team is able to get to a bug.
<ogasawara> If you're interested in getting involved in either helping triage or fix kernel bugs, don't be shy.
<ogasawara> Just helping out by making sure bugs have the minimal debug information and are confirmed against the current development kernel is a great starting point for those looking to become triagers.
<ogasawara> You'll also likely want to look at becoming a member of the Ubuntu Bug Control team:
<ogasawara> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-bugcontrol
<ogasawara> By becoming a member of ubuntu-bugcontrol you are given certain permissions for setting a bug's status - for example being able to set a bug to "Triaged" or "Won't Fix".
<ogasawara> If you are looking to become more involved in the development aspect of the kernel, refer to:
<ogasawara> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/KnowledgeBase
<ogasawara> Every little bit helps and it is definitely appreciated.
<ogasawara> So I'd like to use the remaining time to answer any further questions.
<ogasawara> just a sec while I get the next question . . .
<ogasawara> mbt> QUESTION:  Sometimes it's useful to use a vanilla kernel to troubleshoot/compare.  The Wiki says use make-kpkg, but it doesn't seem to work.  Currently I just make and make install, because it works without any conflicts.  But can one easily repackage a vanilla kernel?
<andresmujica> /852598/*2+
<ogasawara> mbt: hrm, I'll review the wiki.  but as I mentioned earlier, the ubuntu kernel team is intending to provide a vanilla kernel for those interested in testing
<mbt> ogasawara: Which is good news. :)
<ogasawara> <gourgi> ogasawara: QUESTION: how many are in the kernelteam? can't more dev be hired?
<ogasawara> gourgi: there was only 5 devs but we've recently hired on 3 more :)  so yes, more are being hired.
<ogasawara> <m4rt1n> QUESTION: there has been a fuss about Akoya Mini and some other netbooks using the ralink 2860 WLAN card. There is a driver available from ralink. as mobile/small devices are on Canonical's roadmap, will there be some efforts to get the driver in the vanilla kernel?
<ogasawara> m4rt1n: it's preferred if the developers of the driver push the driver upstream first and then it get pulled into the Ubuntu kernel
<ogasawara> m4rt1n: vs Ubuntu pulling it and then trying to push it
<ogasawara> <lord> QUESTION: about the 2.6.27 regression (tcp options reordering) and the solution of ubuntu "disabling time stamp" instead of use an old kernel or delaying release: is it the best solution?, how we can trust ubuntu that he doesn't disable any other features of the kernel?
<ogasawara> lord: a fix was pulled into the kernel for that issue and was released  the same day as Intrepid.
<ogasawara> lord: it's really a call and decision made by the release team, and they should be keeping your best interests in mind
<ogasawara> lord: it's best to also take a look at the release notes page to review any known issues for a release
<ogasawara> <bhk_f> QUESTION: Why are there 2 sessions on SQA - one by ogasawara and one by BrianMurray
<ogasawara> bhk_f: this one is definitely kernel specific
<ogasawara> <andresmujica> QUESTION: Any member of kernel team has commit writes in upstream?
<ogasawara> andresmujica: we use the same process of pushing patches upstream as everyone else - ie via the kernel maintainers
<ogasawara> <angusthefuzz> ogasawara: QUESTION: I noticed an open QA position for creating virtualbox testing images, where do you see images fitting into the kernel bug process?
<ogasawara> angusthefuzz: we'll take as much testing of the kernel as possible whether that be on real hw or in a virtual environment
<ogasawara> <cybernoutles> QUESTION : what is the main case of bugs in the kernel , are there repeated bugs that you encounter over and over?
<ogasawara> cybernoutles: there's always suspend/resume issues I see being reported
<ogasawara> cybernoutles: and with Intrepid it seemed there were more issues with wifi as well
<ogasawara> <bhk_f> QUESTION: Why don't you hire Greg-K-H away from Suse(look wat its doing to his hair!), that will stop his bitching about no patches from canonical...surely
<ogasawara> bhk_f: to be fair, Greg-K-H does great work for the kernel no matter who he works for.  hopefully we can do our best to change his opinion of us.  but just buying off a developer is not the right answer :)
<ogasawara> <bhk_f> QUESTION: Hows ubuntu kernel different from Fedora kernel, for example the current intrepid & fedora ones ?
<jcastro> (last question)
<ogasawara> bhk_f: considering we're both using a 2.6.27 based kernel we should be somewhat similar.  I wouldn't be able to tell you the specific differences though, sorry.
<ogasawara> ok and last question:
<ogasawara> <Guest33263> Question: Bug 279186 (kernel x64 oops on boot for dual core atom D945GCLF2) isn't fixed.  Will I see new kernel updates for Intrepid - now that it is released or do I need to install Jaunty in the hope of a fix ?
<ogasawara> Guest33263: Intrepid will see kernel updates via the SRU process, but it wouldn't hurt to test the Jaunty kernel when available.
<ogasawara> ok, thanks everyone!
<jcastro> thanks leann!
* jcastro changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Current Session: Ubuntu on UMPCs | Welcome to Openweek, questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat please || Session details here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
<jcastro> ok, ogra will kick off Ubuntu on Ultra Mobile PCs in a minute or so
<jcastro> as always, please put questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, and don't forget to prefix your question with QUESTION:
<jcastro> ogra: you can begin!
<ogra> jcastro, 2 min please
<jcastro> ok
 * ogra puts on some hold music
 * ogra waves
<ogra> ok. lets get started
<ogra> so i'm here to talk about ubuntu-umpc and the work we do in the mobile team in general
<ogra> ubuntu-mobile started in 7.10 as a joint project between the moblin community and ubuntu
 * lool hugs ogra 
<ogra> back then basically the ubuntu mobile team just adopted the moblin technology into ubuntu to make it work
<evandarcz> geist
<ogra> with hardy a first public imag for so called mobile internet devices, so called MIDs was released
<evandarcz> sorry
<ogra> *image
<ogra> basicall that included the hildon technology for mobile desktops and was focused on intel atm CPUs
<ogra> *atom
<ogra> which made ubuntu also inrotude the lpia (low power intel) architecture
<ogra> which supposedly had some enhancements to kernel and toolchain to make use of the atom specific powermanagement features
<ogra> the hardy MID image was still built using the moblin image creator which didnt work so well with established image building technologies
<ogra> s/established/established ubuntu/
<ogra> so the image build process in intrepid was reworked to be closer to the ubuntu infrastructure ...
<ogra> alongside an additional flavour was created, the so called ubuntu UMPC flavour
<ogra> so with intrepid we have the ubuntu-mid and ubuntu-umpc flavour ... both targeting mobile devices, basically focussing touchscreens ...
<ogra> while -mid is targeting the realysmall devices with screens from 4-7", umpc is thought for bigger ones like the samsung Q1U for example
<ogra> i.e. 7-9 or 10"
<ogra> mid is still built based on the hildon and mobin technology
<ogra> while umpc is targeting devices that usually come with windows vista today, so it was decided to use a standard gnome desktop and make it suitable for touchscreen use
<ogra> since the typical umpc devices are as powerful as a laptop today
<ogra> screenshots of ubuntu umpc can be found at http://people.ubuntu.com/~ogra/mobile/
<ogra> many people decided to use UMPC on netbooks as well where the mobile team had a lot of positive feedback
<ogra> some people also expect to use the applications from ubuntu netbook remix on top of this image which is easily possible (i'm in the process of putting a hwto together atm that should be up tomorrow)
<ogra> so that should roughly suffice as introduction of what ubuntu-umpc is
<ogra> as a note, people that have followed the dev process in intrepid might have seen the image referred to as ubuntu-mobile, late in the cycle we decided to step away from that generic name
<ogra> so thus the name ubuntu-umpc
<ogra> lets get to some questions :D
<ogra> Q: what is the current status of the relationship with moblin and will moblin 2 be available for umpc and mid
<ogra> i'm personally only working on -umpc but we will go on to base the -mid image on hildon 2 technology and very likely also import a lot from moblin2
<ogra> Q  is my asus eee 1000h a UMPC?
<ogra> well, yes and no ... it is surely a netbook and you can definately run -umpc on it (naively or tweaked to use the netbook apps)
<ogra> we are mainly focussing on touchscreens atm but there is a loose plan to add a bootmenu to the jaunty image that offers selection between the two desktop setups
<ogra> Q: If a user wanted Ubutnu Mobile on their UMPC, how would they go about installing it, and is it a relatively easy process for the user
<ogra> yes :)
<ogra> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/releases/intrepid/release/ has the iage
<ogra> and a link to instructions how to get the image onto a USB key
<ogra> we provide a gui tool in a PPA that hopefully will join the archive in jaunty to make it easy to write usb images to usb keys
<ogra> Q: What is the relationship between Ubuntu Netbook Remix and Ubuntu Mobile
<ogra> the netbook remix is a remix, specifically targeting OEMs
<ogra> the most significant difference is the set of desktop apps
<ogra> and a set of patches to the default apps that make them work on 1024x600 pixel sized screens
<ogra> the set of the four apps is already available in intrepid, the patches are supposed to enter ubuntu at some point and the umpc image will benefit from it
<ogra> Q: are there any proved benefits to lpia and will ume continue to use it
<ogra> we will review and test the benefits very closely during the jaunty release cycle, a spec is registered for this
<ogra> currently the lpia builds include a bit more than just the kernel and toolchain changes, some apps carry patches that make them work better with hildon for example
<ogra> to have both in x86 or amd64 flavours new binary packages would need to be created which isnt the case yet
<ogra> thats a uge amount of work and while i cant talk for the whole team here i would assume that moving al these changes back to the normal arches will likely take more tzhan one release cycle
<ogra> Q: wiil the ume team specialize into a flavour for eeepc, one for aspire one etc
<ogra> no
<ogra> what we are trying to achieve in the mobile team is the same the ubuntu distro tem does
<ogra> we try to build something generic that runs on a special size/set of HW
<ogra> but withing that class of devices the images should run on every device
<ogra> the oem team that produces the netbook remix does a great job of doing device specific customization and this task will stay in their realm, the mobile team tries to achive generic enablement
<ogra> Q: can umpc software be run on an regular pc i386 , and are there any virtualbox images to take a look at the software?
<ogra> the current umpc image is i386 based and does all the standard gnome applications you also find on the normal ubuntu desktop
<ogra> target of the umpc image is to just make these apps work on the screensize (i.e. for netbooks) and to make them touchscreen usable (for UMPCs)
<ogra> Q: Is there any possibility or plans to use Ubuntu in NOKIA N810?
<ogra> the n800/810 uses an ARM cpu, an arch for which we dont have support yet
<ogra> theer were discussions at the last UDS about arm enablement and if it comes to an arm port at some pint that launchpad supports in the infrastructure, the desktop flavours should just run on it or be proted to it
<ogra> that includes umpc and desktop ... and who knows, probably even -mid ... i cant predict the future :)
<ogra> Q: how would a common base shared by both Nokia  and Ubuntu and indeed Debian look like...how can the fragmentation be
<ogra> well, as i see it the maemo comminuty did awesome work on the maemo front, they are basically upstream for hildon and hildon2 so i would assume a possible arm build would bring the communities together to share code etc
<ogra> but here my crystal ball starts to get blurry again, everything depends on support for arm in the infrastructure, which is not here yet :)
<ogra> Q: is the OLPC capable for Ubuntu mobile?
<ogra> probably ...
<ogra> i havent tried an OLPC with it yet, but i would assume it can run at least ubuntu-mid
<ogra> i was working personally on a classmatePC image for a while, which even was capable to run a normal edubuntu gnome desktop, so i dont see why an OLPC shouldnt be able to run something of the mobile builds which has a raher smaller footprint
<ogra> Q: Recently there were some fuss with a high rate of netbooks rejected by customers because they couldn't install their windows apps in them (live messenger i.e.) which strateegy is planned in that front?
<ogra> thats really a question i cant answer personally, we dont work directly on the marketing side of things with the mobile team
<ogra> i dont even know if these claims are true nor do i know abotu such a feedback
<FilipeRosset> hi peoples
<ogra> Q:  Is somebody considering integrating a KDE environment like Qtopia in one of the -MID or -UMPC?
<ogra> yes, there was recently some discussion about KDE integration in the #ubuntu-mobile channel, i think the kubuntu community is actively starting to work on something, but i dont know details beyond that
<ogra> peobably ask in #kubuntu to get more info ... something's going on there definately :)
<ogra> Q: is there a #ubuntu-umpc or a mailling list?
<rugby471>  
<ogra> not specifically ... since the mobile team works n the images, we do all our coordination in #ubuntu-mobile, feel free to join any time, we appreciate every soul in there :)
<ogra> we also hold meetings every thursday in #ubuntu-meeting everyone is invited t join and give input
<ogra> and ubuntu-mobile@lists.ubuntu.com is our mailing list
<ogra> Q: What do you think about promises of the devices based on ARM and MIPS as UMPC?
<ogra> ... i cant make any :)
<ogra> but they would surely be great ... i'm an n800 owner myself and would appreciate to run ubuntu on it
<ogra> Q: Which UMPC's seem to "just work" the best with Ubuntu-umpc?
<ogra> definately the samsung Q1 Ultra as many of us in the development team own one as development platform
<ogra> so you can largely assume this works best
<ogra> Q: It is possible make UMPC from PDA by Ubuntu if will be ARM port?
<ogra> that would surely be possible if there were an arm port
<ogra> things like opie and gpe are in the archive, if the PDA is a bit bigger even the mid flavour might work on it, but that depends on an arm port indeed
<ogra> so it looks like i ran out of questions :)
<ogra> Q: hp is using ubuntu on its new netbooks, are there others planning the same?
<ogra> well, there is also dell, sylvania and toshiba already
<skate_archone> thotypous, hi, thanks for you recommendation
<ido_> what else is in progress to make it more touch friendly ?
<ogra> i'm not sure who else will be in the loop, thats something the oem and marketing teams might be able to answer
<ogra> Q: what are the biggest obstacles that you're encountering at the moment?
<ogra> well, with intrepid i personally simply found out that nothing sucks as hard as our touchscreen suport
<ogra> as ido_ noted, there will be much work done in jaunty to solve that
<maniacmusician> can you speak to that in a more technical sense?
<ogra> upstream xorg is working on a unified architecture to get all touchscreens use evdev on X level
<ogra> we plan to work closely with them
<ogra> maniacmusician, well, there is been no proper calibration tool for example
<ogra> the one the evtouch driver used to ship since years in debian and ubuntu didnt even work
<ogra> my personal focus to get at least the code we ship into shape this release, the next round we'll try to work more with upstream to solve it for all possible touchsceens
<ogra> indeed that needs your input :) we hope to get enough user feedback and testing for real massive inprovements
<ogra> : Is LG KS20 going to be supported?
<ogra> sorry, no idea, i would need the tech specs, feel free to drop by after the talk in #ubuntu-mobile ;)
<ogra> QUESTION: Will the netbook versions and umpc versions be upgradeable too similar to the main distro ?
<ogra> yes !
<ogra> they are absolutely upgradeable like the main distro with teh intrepid image
<ido_> is it safe to ues the auto-update feature on the umpc versions then ?
<ogra> Q: Is there any advantage to the netbook manufacturers in using 64 bit rather than 32 bit Ubuntu releases
<ogra> well, i personally usualy only see drawbacks in 64bit arches since you likely run into probs with flash and the like
<ogra> which is a typically used app on netbooks
<ogra> but thats a solely personal optinion
<ogra> given that ATOM atm only supports 1G ram i dont see many benefits for using 64bit OSes on netbooks
<ogra> ido_, yes it is
<ogra> we'll make sure the images are as properly upgradeable as the main distro
<ogra> Q: umpc devices are as powerful as a laptop -> How can you explain users having issues with HD video on a UMPC
<ogra> ^^^ got that in PM
<ogra> well, i simply cant without debugging ;)
<ogra> i havent heard these issues yet
<ogra> i personally use a dvb-t card on my samsung which works fine
<jcastro> ok, just about out of time
<ogra> Q:image build process in intrepid was reworked to be closer to the ubuntu infrastructure -> how about the repository infrastructure and the delays in packaging/testing for lpia, how long is the average wait between i386 and lpia and what are the limitationsor packages that can't be used on
<ogra> lpi architechture
<ogra> there essentially is no wait anymore now
<ogra> apart from packages that actually get patches on the desktop level to work with hildon
<ogra> for these indeed its a matter of integrating the hildon side of things, but that has nothing to do with the build infrastructure
<ogra> lpia currently is a fully working arch on te build servers and packages should usually build at the same time as the i386 ones
<Tolchi> ty ogra
<jcastro> thanks ogra!
<ogra> ok, seems we'Re running out of time ... so iÃll leave the stage to jorge
<ogra> thaks everyone :)
* jcastro changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Current Session: Reporting Bugs about Ubuntu | Welcome to Openweek, questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat please || Session details here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
<jcastro> ok, bdmurray, your turn!
<bdmurray> Welcome!  I'm here to talk to about how to report bugs about Ubuntu as there are a couple of different ways you can do it.
<bdmurray> Additionally, I'll cover how to make your bug report more likely to get fixed!
<bdmurray> Perhaps you are wondering what exactly is a bug?
<bdmurray> In computer software it is an error or a flaw that makes the software behave in ways for which it wasn't designed.  Some of these can result in crashes, others may have a subtle effect on functionality, others can be spelling errors.
<bdmurray> By reporting these issues you can help to improve Ubuntu for everyone!
<bdmurray> To be able report a bug effectively let's take a look at what a bug report looks like.
<bdmurray> Reported bugs are kept in Launchpad, the bug tracking system used by Ubuntu.  Let's look at a sample bug report - http://launchpad.net/bugs/291342.
<ubot5`> Launchpad bug 291342 in update-manager "free disk space check could actually carry out suggested ways to clear space" [Wishlist,Confirmed]
<bdmurray> There are four attributes of a bug report that I want to point out.  1) The bug's title or summary is 'free disk space check could actually carry out suggested ways to clear space'.
<bdmurray> 2) In the Affects table you'll see that this bug report affects 'update-manager (Ubuntu)' this is the package / application which the bug report is about.
<bdmurray> 3) Bug's have a "description" which is filled out when you are reporting a bug.
<bdmurray> 4) You'll also notice that the bug's status is Confirmed.
<bdmurray> The status also appears in the affects table.
<bdmurray> Are there any questions regarding what a bug report looks like?
<bdmurray> < snapy> QUESTION:  What are tags?
<bdmurray> Bug tags provide another way of identifying and searching for bug reports in Launchpad.  You can find some common ones that we at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Tags.
<bdmurray> For example screencast is a tag used when a bug has a screencast attached to it.
<bdmurray> < yusuf_> QUESTION: What is the comments setion for?
<bdmurray> Comments are used to communicate information between the bug reporter and bug triagers or developers.  For example a triager might request more information about the bug.
<bdmurray> So how can you report a bug about Ubuntu in Launchpad?
<bdmurray> They can be reported via the web interface at https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+filebug where you start by filling out the summary which becomes the bug's tile.
<bdmurray> After which you are asked for the package affected and for 'Futher information' which becomes the bug's description.
<bdmurray> The description should contain at a minimum the following:
<bdmurray> 1) The release of Ubuntu that you are reporting the bug about.
<bdmurray>  2) The version of the package you are reporting the bug about.
<bdmurray> 3) What you thought should happen.  and 4) What happened instead.
<bdmurray> You also have the opportunity to add an attachment to your bug when you are reporting it via the web interface.
<bdmurray> Another way to report a bug is using apport, an automated problem report application included with Ubuntu.
<bdmurray> The advantage to using apport is that it automatically collects information about the release of Ubuntu you are using and the version of the package / application that you are reporting the bug about.  This means less work for you!
<bdmurray> Let's say that you have encountered a bug with gnome-terminal.  You can use apport to report the bug by going to gnome terminal's "Help" menu and choosing "Report a Problem".
<bdmurray> Apport will start collecting information about your bug and then launch your browser where you enter the bug's summary / title and then enter the bug's description.
<bdmurray> An example of a bug reported using the "Report a Problem" menu item is http://launchpad.net/bugs/292885.  Looking at that bug you'll see information in the description regarding the DistroRelease, the package and version, and kernel version among other things.
<ubot5`> bdmurray: Error: Could not parse data returned by Launchpad: The read operation timed out
<bdmurray> All of which was collected automatically for you.  The "Report a Problem" functionality has been integrated into lots of applications.
<bdmurray> Speaking of tags you'll also notice that bug is tagged apport-bug.
<bdmurray> Apport also has a command line interface, called apport-cli, where you can report a bug about a specific package via 'apport-cli -f -p PACKAGE' which is useful for non GUI applications for example gdm (gnome-display-manager) or X.
<bdmurray> Additionally, you can also specify a process id number via 'apport-cli -f -P PID'.
<bdmurray> Using apport is the preferred way to report bugs as they contain detailed information about the application and your system.  Further information about reporting bugs can be found at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ReportingBugs.
<bdmurray> < ogzy> QUESTION: what does a triager do?
<bdmurray> This will be addressed more tomorrow when pedro_ gives a class on triaging bugs.  However, a triager helps gather more information to make the bug report complete so it can start being fixed!
<bdmurray>  < Kolyan_ufalug_> QUESTION: How do you think should be written
<bdmurray>                         the ideal bugreport? What do you think of
<bdmurray>                         beginners who are not able to report bugs
<bdmurray>                         right?
<bdmurray> The ideal bug report should contain information about the release of ubuntu, the package version affected, and detailed steps for someone else to recreate the bug.
<bdmurray> The steps to recreate the bug, or the test case, is critical so someone else can confirm the bug report.  Bugs that are unreproducable are often hard to fix!
<bdmurray> < ogzy> QUESTION: so triager and bug fixer are different people?
<bdmurray> No, not necessarily.  Think of them more as roles.  A developer fulfills the role of a triager when they are gathering information to start working on the report.
<bdmurray> Moving on - how can we make our bug reports more useful for triagers and developers?
<bdmurray> Choosing the affected package or application the bug is about is critical.  Please don't submit bugs with out a package!
<bdmurray> We have about 1500 of these right now and your report might get lost there or will be responded to less quickly.
<bdmurray> Some helpful hints for finding the proper package are at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/FindRightPackage.
<bdmurray> This page also contains the names of packages that might be hard to discover.  For example, bugs about the kernel in Intrepid Ibex should be reported about 'linux' in Launchpad.
<bdmurray> Also feel free to join the #ubuntu-bugs channel on Freenode and ask for help in finding the proper package.
<bdmurray> An important part of a bug's life cycle is it entering the Confirmed status.
<bdmurray> When a bug is Confirmed it means that someone has been able to recreate the bug or believes sufficient information has been included in the bug report for a developer to start working on it.
<Tamass> cool, openweek
<Tamass> :)
<bdmurray> Any Launchpad user can confirm a bug report, but please don't confirm your own!  It is important that someone else is able to recreate the bug and that we know it is not specific to your configuration.
<bdmurray> In practical terms - this means that you should include extremely detailed steps to recreate the bug in it's description so anyone, not just a developer, could confirm it.
<bdmurray> It is far better to have too much detail than not enough!
<bdmurray> There is another bug status named 'Triaged' which is an advanced state of 'Confirmed'.  You can learn more about bug statuses at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Status.
<bdmurray> Some fairly simple things you can do to make your bug report easier for someone to confirm or triage your bug are including a screenshot, via Print Screen, or creating a screencast, using istanbul or gtk-recordmydesktop.
<bdmurray> Including these items makes it that much easier for anyone to confirm your bug report.
<bdmurray> An example of a bug with a screencast is http://launchpad.net/bugs/212425 - watching the screencast helps one better understand how to recreate the bug.
<ubot5`> Launchpad bug 212425 in libwnck "Desktop selector does not change on having positioned a file on" [Low,Confirmed]
<bdmurray> Additionally, the best way to make your bug report more likely to be fixed is to follow the debugging procedures for the package or subsystem the bug is about!
<bdmurray> These have been written by bug triagers or the developer of the software and following them will help you create a more detailed bug report.
<bdmurray> You can find the list of debugging procedures at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingProcedures.
<bdmurray> Looking at some more questions ...
<bdmurray> < gourgi> QUESTION:what is the difference between "This bug  doesn't affect me" and "Subscrive to bug" ? do both  provide update notifications?
<bdmurray> If you change a bug report to 'This bug affects me' that information gets recorded in the Launchpad database.  It is an easy way of saying me too.
<bdmurray> However, you are not subscribed to the bug report when you do that.
<bdmurray> When you subscribe to a bug report you will receive e-mail notifications regarding changes to the bug report whether they be questions asked or packages available for testing the fix to the bug report.
<bdmurray> < madmetal_spyros> QUESTION: How important for the team is  Apport?
<bdmurray> apport is a very important application to bug triagers and the Ubuntu development team.  It is always being improved to submit higher quality bug reports.
<bdmurray> < kippy> QUESTION: You mentioned a Bug is a behaviour which the  software was not designed to perform. So how can we  classify the "update manager should suggest ways of  freeing up disk space" as a bug? I mean its more of an  improvement, as the importance=wishlist points up. So  does this mean we can suggest improvements via bug  reports? and what does "Assigned To" contains and
<bdmurray>  signiies on the bug greport page?
<bdmurray> Some improvement bug reports do belong in Launchpad.  It depends on the scope of the improvement and whether or not the application is something is developed by Ubuntu developers - which update-manager is.
<bdmurray> Some ideas, like changing default applications, are best reported at http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/.  There they can be more fully fleshed out and voted on by community members.
<bdmurray> Assigned to means that somebody is working on fixing a bug report.
<bdmurray> < grml> QUESTION: Before I report a Bug, I have to check if this  Bug is already reported. How can I list the already  reported Bugs for a given package and/or for a given  Ubuntu Release, please?
<bdmurray> This is a great question!  Thanks for asking it.  We get a lot of duplicate bug reports in Launchpad and it helps a lot if reporters would first look to see if the bug is already reported.
<bdmurray> For example, lets say we are having an issue with rhythmbox.  We can find bugs reported about rhythbox at https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/rhythmbox/+bugs.
<bdmurray> Now we can enter a string in the search box like 'mtp' and click search to find rhythmbox bugs about mtp.
<bdmurray> Let's say bug 235726 is the bug I'm experiencing.  I could subscribe to that bug report to receive information about how the bug is progressing.
<bdmurray> Additionally, you might notice that this bug doesn't really have a specific package version in it and hasn't been tested with Intrepid.  So if it were your bug you could test it with Intrepid and add your findings to the bug report.
<bdmurray> You should include complete details as if you were reporting it as a new bug.  So the release and the specific package version.
<bdmurray>  < AnAnt> QUESTION: sometimes I report a bug, and it I get no
<bdmurray>                response for it for long time (maybe more than a
<bdmurray>                month), what should I do to grab attention to a bug ?
<bdmurray> AnAnt: It really depends on the bug.  However, testing it with the latest version of the package can help.  Finding a friend to recreate the bug report and subsequently confirming it would help.  Additionally, not all software included with Ubuntu is developed by us.
<bdmurray> So one could report the bug to the upstream bug tracker (for example gnome in the rhythmbox case we were using eariler) and then link your Ubuntu bug report to the upstream bug report.
<bdmurray> < toobaz> QUESTION: do programs which use apport trigger it only  when they "die abruptly" or do programmers decide to  make a call to it just when the code itself detects  things are non behaving right?
<bdmurray> apport detects application crashes and automatically reports them for the development release of Ubuntu, so programmers don't need to anything.  However, for the "Report a problem" functionality developers can include apport hooks in their package for files to be included in the bug report.
<bdmurray> For example, X bug reports include '/etc/X11/xorg.conf' and '/var/log/Xorg.0.log' and maybe some other things.
<bdmurray> Are there any further questions?
<maiopirata> hi bdmurray
<maiopirata> I've one little problem with the wireless
<bdmurray> maiopirata: Hi, if you have a question can you ask it in #ubuntu-classroom-chat ?
<maiopirata> ok thanks
<bdmurray> < spielmannsfluch> QUESTION: What about bugs in  packages/programms not developed by the  ubuntu team, should I report these bugs to  launchpad, too?
<jcastro> almost out of time!
<bdmurray> If there are included with Ubuntu yes.  This will allow bug triagers and or developers to help you determine if the bug is Ubuntu specific.  Additionally, there are triagers who run upstream versions of software who can test it with the upstream version.
<jcastro> ok we're out of time
<jcastro> thanks bdmurray!
<bdmurray> We've covered some ways to submit higher quality bug reports about Ubuntu.  However, if you need any help reporting a bug, or finding the right package to report a bug on, or finding out if your bug is a duplicate, you can find members of the Ubuntu bugsquad in the #ubuntu-bugs IRC channel.
<bdmurray> Thanks everyone!
* jcastro changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Current Session: Version Control with Bazaar | Welcome to Openweek, questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat please || Session details here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
<jcastro> ok emmajane, take it away!
<emmajane> Awesome! :)
<AnAnt> thanks
<emmajane> Hi everyone!
<emmajane> In this next session I'm going to walk you through the very basics of setting up the world's best revision control system: Bazaar!
<emmajane> Who's up for a little bit of version control?! :)
<alucardni> +1 emmajane
<Megaqwerty> wohoo!
<barcc> +1
<emmajane> Woo!
<emmajane> This session has six parts: (1) A little bit about Bazaar, (2) Installing Bazaar, (3) Initializing a repository (aka Creating a time machine), (4) Going back in time, (5) Downloading files from Launchpad and (6) Resources.
<NetSKaVeN> emmajane for president!!
<emmajane> In the next session you will learn how to use Bazaar to maintain a package in Launchpad.
<emmajane> I have the notes typed out if you are interested in reading ahead, please keep your questions to the topic at hand though, thanks!! http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/66913/
<emmajane> Ok! Let's get started!
<emmajane> Topic 1/6: A little bit about Bazaar
<emmajane> Bazaar is a distributed version control system that Just Works. Bazaar adapts to the workflows you want to use, and it takes only a few minutes to try it out.
<emmajane> Bazaar is used by all kinds of project teams to maintain all the changes that are made to the underlying code by each developer. In fact the code for the data base MySQL is stored in Bazaar! And Ubuntu is working towards putting 15,000 packages into Bazaar! These are HUGE projects!
<emmajane> It can be used by real people too though. I like to think of myself as more of a "real person" than a "hardcore ninja developer." I use Bazaar because it's really good, but also because the support community is AMAZING. People have answered questions at all hours of the day in the IRC channel #bzr.
<emmajane> Whether you're a hardcore ninja developer, or a real person, you can take advantage of version control for your work.
<emmajane> (Apparently ninjas are real people too though.) ;)
<emmajane> It can be useful to put all kinds of files under version control. For example: your configuration files, your resume, or any other kind of file that you might want to see a "historical" snapshot of.
<emmajane> For example: I'm a freelance Web developer. I'm doing work on a client site and all of a sudden I get brand new files from the graphic designer that change everything. I could start a new folder, but that leaves a lot of junk lying around on my computer. Instead I use all the new files in my project (overwriting the old ones), but with Bazaar there is a secret "history" folder that allows me to go back and look at the old versions of the fil
<emmajane> e whenever I want.
<emmajane> I like to think of Bazaar as the biggest, baddest UNDO button my computer has ever known.
 * emmajane pauses for people to catch up. :)
<emmajane> all good? :)
<NetSKaVeN> sure
<zever> yes
<kippy> O:-)
<emmajane> awesome. :)
<tamrat> \o/\o/
<emmajane> Topic 2/6: Installing Bazaar
<emmajane> I'm going to assume that everyone is already using Ubuntu?
<emmajane> We will be working from the command line for most of this session. I am very comfortable at the command line so if I go too quickly, please jump up and down and tell me! I have used the convention of $ to mean start typing a command. If you look at your command line you will see that it ends with a $. Mine looks like this:
<emmajane> emmajane@gollum:~$
<emmajane> If you are using GNOME you can open a new terminal window by navigating to:
<emmajane> Applications (top left of your screen) -> Accessories -> Terminal.
<emmajane> If you are using KDE you can open a new terminal window by navigating to:
<emmajane> System -> Terminal Program (Konsole)
<emmajane> If you are using a different desktop environment you are probably already a super 1337 haX0r that knows how to find a terminal window, but please let me know if you need more help!
<emmajane> Let me know if you can't find a terminal window....
<emmajane> Sounds like we're all good?
 * emmajane welcomes LarstiQ from #bzr :) (I told you they were helpful!! :) )
<emmajane> Now that you are at the terminal window you will see something similar to my command line that I displayed above. We are now going to install Bazaar. I chose to do this from the command because that's where we'll be running the commands. You could also use the Synaptic Package Manager to do this installation.
<emmajane> To install Bazaar we are going to use a package manager called apt-get. It install a package it uses the structure: apt-get install PACKAGENAME. You must be the super user of your system to run this program we will use the "sudo" command instead because it's faster and because this comic is funnier if you know about sudo:  http://xkcd.com/149/
<emmajane> $ sudo apt-get install bzr
<emmajane> You will be prompted for your password. If there are multiple accounts on your computer you may not be in the sudo group. You can switch to the root user if 'sudo' doesn't work for you.
<emmajane> Let me know when you've successfully run that command.... or if you're having problems getting Bazaar installed...
<NetSKaVeN> all ok here
<emmajane> awesome, NetSKaVeN :)
<kippy> waiting for download to complet...
 * emmajane nods to kippy
<kippy> Its done :)
<alucardni> waiting for apt-get to finish the installation process
<lobo-ptr> like a charm
<emmajane> alucardni: cool :)
<emmajane> w00t! I like charms, lobo-ptr :)
<emmajane> I've got a little bit more installation information, if you're not done yet, that's ok. You're not missing anything. :)
<alucardni> ok, done
<emmajane> Assuming that worked you should now have Bazaar installed on your system. You can test this with the following command:
<emmajane> $ bzr
<emmajane> You should get a list of Bazaar commands. Note: Bazaar is the name of the application and bzr is the actual command that you run.
<emmajane> If you want to have a pointy-clicky browser to make these changes you can also install "Olive." This program has the package name: bzr-gtk. You can install it with the following command:
<emmajane> $ sudo apt-get install bzr-gtk
<emmajane> How's everyone doing so far? Ready to start taking snapshots of your files?
<NetSKaVeN> sure
<LordDicranius> yep :)
<alucardni> +1
<kippy> Yep, with CLI :)
<ogzy> +1
<emmajane> awesome :)
<emmajane> Topic 3/6: Initializing a Repository (aka Creating a Time Machine)
<emmajane> For the next part I want you to choose a directory that has files you *know* you should be keeping in better order. This might be an application that you've been hacking away on, or your resume folder, or whatever!
<emmajane> We could also invent some files if you wanted to, but I think it's nice to work with files you know.
<emmajane> Change directory to the folder that has the files you want to put under revision control. I am going to work in the folder that contains the files for the Web site riversideyarns.com. I use the following command to move to that directory:
<emmajane> $ cd websites/riversideyarns.com
<emmajane> Remember that you can use the tab button to finish typing each of the words. Type the first letter of the file name and then press the tab key. It will type the rest of the word for you. Of course if there are more than one files that start with the same letter you will need to type a few more letters before hitting tab again.
<emmajane> Once you have changed to your working directory you can create a new "repository" of your files. A repository is a place where data are stored and maintained. This folder will no longer be a simple set of files. It will be an uber awesome time machine that lets you travel back in time to see old versions of your files.
<emmajane> To start the time machine, I mean initialize the repository, use the following command:
<emmajane> $ bzr init
<fukazzz> fazzuk: nice nick :D
<emmajane> It's sort of like a magic trick because you won't see anything happen. This command creates a hidden time machine in your current directory.
<fukazzz> it seems very familiar...
<emmajane> You can confirm it is there with the following command:
<emmajane> $ ls -al
<emmajane> Do you see the .bzr folder? That's your time machine!
<moreati> ls
<ciprian_topala> yeap it's there
<emmajane> excellent, ciprian_topala :)
<kippy> does bzr init require sudo?
<emmajane> kippy: nope.
<emmajane> kippy: you get to be a regular person for this part. :)
<kippy> :)
<emmajane> Has everyone got their time machine?
<alucardni> it worked!!
<emmajane> I mean .bzr folder?
<tamrat> yep
<kippy> yep
<biomass> yea
<emmajane> woo :)
<emmajane> For the next step you need to add all your files into the time machine. Use the following command:
<emmajane> $ bzr add
<emmajane> Bazaar will tell you that it has added the files to the time machine. Next you will need to lock and load the time machine. This allows you to jump back to this point in history. In Bazaar-speak this is referred to as "committing your changes."
<emmajane> You must add a little message each time you commit your files. This lets you know what happened at this point in history (and makes it easier to jump back in time to exactly the right point). Be descriptive in your commit message. Use the following command:
<emmajane> $ bzr commit -m "Adding files to the time machine for the very first time."
 * x_dimitri got zapped to back to 1969 by his bzr time machine
<emmajane> SHAZAAM! Your time machine is ready to go!
<emmajane> x_dimitri: oh dear. :) an actual error? Or just a UNIX joke? :)
<x_dimitri> just kidding :-)
<emmajane> kay :)
<emmajane> phew :)
 * x_dimitri is as fine as... um... the linux kernel?
<emmajane> haha
<ogzy> can we continue?
<emmajane> You can now edit your files and continue "committing" changes. Remember Bazaar is like an undo button. You want to be able to "undo" small changes, and not lose a bunch of work because you undid too much.
<emmajane> Try editing one of your files and committing the changes. Once you've edited a file you can commit the change into the revision history with:
<kippy> difference b/w add and commit?
<x_dimitri> good to see there's good humour around here
<x_dimitri> please proceed
<Flimm> People, chat belongs to #ubuntu-classroom-chat , not here
<emmajane> kippy: "add" tells bzr about the files. You only use it once to add each new file.
<emmajane> (or you can add files in bulk, like we just did)
<emmajane> commit, on the other hand, is how you mark each set of changes so that you can jump back to that point in history.
<emmajane> kippy: does that make sense?
<emmajane> Try editing one of your files and committing the changes. Once you've edited a file you can commit the change into the revision history with:
<emmajane> $ bzr commit -m "A descriptive message with a summary of the changes you made."
<emmajane> I would like everyone to try editing one or two files in the directory they're in and "committing" the changes.
<alucardni> emmajane: done
<emmajane> The next step is to learn how to go back in time, but you need to have edited the files to believe that you really are going back.
<emmajane> If you do a few edits and a few commits you will have more to look at in your logs (which is the next step).
<emmajane> I'll give everyone three minutes to do this.
<emmajane> This would be a good time to ask questions if you have some at this point as well.
<ciprian_topala> does bazaar commit too newly created files that didn't exist at the initial commit?
<anthony> emmajane: Are you getting the questions from -chat in any way?
<emmajane> anthony: I just joined that channel. So people will need to repeat them.
<emmajane> ciprian_topala: you have to explicitly add any new files. Otherwise Bazaar will ignore them.
<emmajane> Ok. That's the three minutes.
<emmajane> Hopefully everyone's done some editing by now?
<NetSKaVeN> o/
<Tonio__>  yep
<emmajane> woo!
<LordDicranius> yep
<emmajane> Topic 4/6: Going back in time
<ogzy> yes
<emmajane> Mistakes happen. What if you need to UNDO some changes you've made? You can go back in time and restore your files to a previously saved version.
<emmajane> To undo mistakes there are two commands you need to know: revert, and uncommit. But before we start undoing things, let's read the history books to see where we want to travel back in time to....
<emmajane> $ bzr log
<emmajane> This command lets you see the revision history for the commits you've made to your repository. if you are working with text files you can also look to see what the EXACT changes were between two versions of a file with the "diff" command. To compare from a previous version to the current one, use the following command
<emmajane> $ bzr diff -r# FILENAME
<emmajane> Replace the # with the "revno" from your log.
<emmajane> In the text that is spit out look for the lines that have - and + at the beginning of the lines. The - means the line was removed; the + means the line was added.
<emmajane> (This won't work as expected for binary files such as images and OpenOffice.org documents.)
 * emmajane pauses to give people a chance to read their history books... I mean logs.
<emmajane> I'm going to answer some questions while you're working on that.
<mulamanca> quit]
<emmajane> rgreening	QUESTION: Is there a qt/KDE equivalent to the bzr-gtk?
<mulamanca> exit
<mulamanca> quit
<emmajane> Hm. Not that I'm aware of. Does anyone else know?
<weboide> qbzr
<cyphermox> that was brought up in the -chat channel. it seems there is qbzr
<LarstiQ> there is
<emmajane> excellent!
<emmajane> Kolyan_ufalug_	QUESTION: What current status of bazaar speed? When my familiar developers looked at last time bazaar they have said it was not very fast in comparsion to other systems. I know that this is not critical in small projects but big projects also interest.
 * LarstiQ is a bit slow to react, sorry for that
<emmajane> Kolyan_ufalug_: it's fast enough for MySQL.... specific benchmarking questions could be directed to the mailing list though. I believe it depends on the complexity of the project.
<emmajane> presi	QUESTION: I feel confortable with GNU Arch, but seems a bit unmantained so I'm thinking about moving to bazaar, can I work with bazaar in the same way as with arch, that is with working trees separate from repositories?
<LarstiQ> Yes, you can with lightweight checkouts.
<emmajane> presi: I think you mean branches? Yup, you can do branches in Bazaar. You'll learn that in the next session.
<emmajane> moreati	QUESTION: bzr add and bzr commit resulted in the same messages (added foo.bar) is the commit necessary or does bzr add do an implicit commit?
<emmajane> moreati: Yup, the commit is necessary. This locks your changes into Bazaar.
<kippy> why so many version control systems like SVN, GIT and BAZAAR ? which one is more advantageous in what kind of situations?
<emmajane> kippy: Why so many Linux distros?
<kippy> why?
<emmajane> kippy: each has advantages for different projects. Personally I go with the system that has the best and most active community.
<LarstiQ> To explore different approaches, mainly.
<emmajane> Ok. Back to the classs. :)
<emmajane> This command lets you see the revision history for the commits you've made to your repository. if you are working with text files you can also look to see what the EXACT changes were between two versions of a file with the "diff" command. To compare from a previous version to the current one, use the following command
<emmajane> $ bzr diff -r# FILENAME
<emmajane> Replace the # with the "revno" from your log.
<emmajane> (I think this might be review?)
<emmajane> In the text that is spit out look for the lines that have - and + at the beginning of the lines. The - means the line was removed; the + means the line was added.
<emmajane> (And this should be new...)
<emmajane> To compare two versions in history use the following command:
<emmajane> $ bzr diff -v -r#..# FILENAME
<emmajane> Note the two dots between the revision numbers. These are important.
<emmajane> To move back in time to the last commit (i.e. UNDO only the current changes) use the command "revert." This will take you back to the previously committed changes. This will change all files that have been updated since the last commit.
<emmajane> $ bzr revert
<emmajane> To go one step further back and undo the last commit of your files, use the "uncommit" command like so:
<emmajane> $ bzr uncommit
<emmajane> If you want to go back to a very specific version number, you can use the revert command as well as the revision number:
<emmajane> $ bzr revert -r #
<emmajane> Remember to COMMIT your changes when you go back in time. You must "save" your new location in time by committing the new snapshot into your revision history. Once you've restored your files to the right version, use the commit command like this:
<emmajane> $ bzr commit -m "Undoing bug fixes from previous revision. Reverts files back to feature set YXZ."
<emmajane> <mbt> emmajane: QUESTION: Is there a uncommit like thing that preserves version history, say, for branches that are always-public?
<emmajane> I'm pretty sure that the history isn't deleted, it's the file that's returned to that state...
<LarstiQ> well
<emmajane> someone else might be able to correct me on that though.
<LarstiQ> Once you use uncommit (or rebase) the old revision is destroyed and you can then make a new one.
<emmajane> <alucardni> QUESTION: We have to revert and uncommit to make changes to a previous version of a file?
<emmajane> alucardni: Nope. Choose right tool for the job.
<emmajane> Do one OR the other.
<LarstiQ> mbt: so doing that will impact other people's ability to interact with your branch
<emmajane> There is more information in the Bazaar User Manual at: http://doc.bazaar-vcs.org/latest/en/user-guide/index.html#undoing-mistakes
<LarstiQ> (and in #bzr :)
<emmajane> (That's just more information for "UNDO" althoug the full user manual is there)
<emmajane> <weboide> emmajane: uncommit seems to delete history
<emmajane> weboide: correct. uncommit completely UNDOES the last commit.
<emmajane> As if it NEVER HAPPENED!
<emmajane> (How cool would it be to have THAT in real life?!)
<emmajane> revert is a little more polite. :)
<emmajane> There is more information on the differences in that link I gave you above.
<emmajane> What you've had so far are the basics for working with your own files.
<emmajane> Hopefully people have had a chance to edit their own work and see the log files and revert changes and basically muck around a bit.
<LarstiQ> To stress that, using uncommit on a branch you have published is not recommended.
<emmajane> The next part will set you up for Part Two of Bazaar in the next session.
<LarstiQ> But you _can_ do it if you have to.
<emmajane> Topic 5/6: Working with Launchpad
<emmajane> There is one last thing I want to show you today. And that's how to get a repository from Launchpad. In the next session you will learn all kinds of fantastic things that you can do with real code, but first I want to show you how to get that code into your computer.
<emmajane> The first thing I want you to do is change directories into a play area. This might be in your home directory, or on your desktop. To change to your home directory use the following:
<emmajane> $ cd
<emmajane> To change directories to your Desktop use the following command:
<emmajane> $ cd ~/Desktop
<emmajane> Here are two different ways to grab a repository from Launchpad. You can either use the URL for the project, **or** use the Launchpad project name. You don't need to do both. Let's take a look at the two commands:
<emmajane> $ bzr checkout https://launchpad.net/terminator
<emmajane> $ bzr checkout lp:terminator
<emmajane> Both of these commands will do the same thing. The "lp" version will (obviously) only work for projects that are available in Launchpad. But the first version will work for any URL on the internet that has a .bzr folder in the same directory. (You can probably see the advantages and disadvantages of this!)
<emmajane> Choose one method now and download the "terminator" project.
<emmajane> In other words perform a "checkout" using either the URL for the project *or* the lp project name.
<emmajane> It may take a little while for the terminator project to download. You will be using these files for the "advanced" Bazaar session coming up next.
<guest12344321> what is terminator project?
<emmajane> guest12344321: You'll have to ask bobbo :)
<emmajane> <gQuigs> QUESTION: is there a shortcut (like lp) for gnome projects?
<emmajane> gQuigs: As far as I know there is not. But, again, I've been wrong before. ;)
<james_w> gQuigs: there is a plugin to provide it floating around
<jcastro> most of the time bzr checkout lp:nameofgnomeproject will work
<james_w> the main problem is that GNOME only uses bzr for a few things at the moment, but as jcastro said launchpad has bzr mirrors of most of the projects
<emmajane> While you're downloading the project (you saw how easy it was compared to CVS?!) I'm going to plunk in some resources to wrap up this session, but please start asking me questions as well!!
<emmajane> Topic 6/6: Resources
<emmajane> There are lots of resources to learn more about Bazaar. I personally use the following a lot:
<emmajane> The Bazaar Web site. http://bazaar-vcs.org/ Here you will find good documentation as well as useful plugins. I use the "upload" plugin for my Web work as well as bzr_push_and_update.
<emmajane> The built-in documentation is really good too. You can check the "man" pages with $ man bzr  OR get a list of all the commands in bzr with: $ bzr --help commands
<emmajane> And that's all I've got.
<emmajane> Not bad timing, eh? :)
<NetSKaVeN> great time!!
<james_w> "bzr help topics" is good too
<james_w> and #bzr and bazaar@lists.canonical.com of course
<presi> very basic but usefull class
<jcastro> presi: don't worry, we're getting into advanced topics next
<presi> ok
* jcastro changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Current Session: Bazaar: Beyond The Basics | Prefix questions with "QUESTION:" | Stay on topic | Run 'date -u' in a terminal to find the UTC time
<jcastro> bobbo: let's take a few minutes for a break and then begin?
<bobbo> jcastro: sure
<thiebaude> good job,emma
<jcastro> \o/ emmajane!
<emmajane> bobbo: they should all have terminator downloaded for you. :)
<bobbo> emmajane: good stuff :D Thanks alot!
<james_w> bobbo: just remember they have a checkout, not a branch :-)
<emmajane> jcastro: thanks :)
<bobbo> james_w: you've confused me already :P
<james_w> what's bzr?
<knome> what's what?
<jcastro> ok, moving on with bazaar still, but now into more advanced topics
<jcastro> this is the last session of the day
<jcastro> so basically we can go until bobbo passes out.
<knome> \o/
<jcastro> take it away bobbo!
<LordDicranius> lol
<knome> any beer served?
<bobbo> thanks jcastro :D
<bobbo> right hey everyone!
<thiebaude> yup,knome i have heineken now:)
<emmajane> I'll stick around in -chat as well if people still have beginner questions. :)
<bobbo> Now Emma Jane has covered the basics of using Bazaar, I'm going to go into a little more detail and show you some of the more
<bobbo> complex things you can do with Bzr, including branching, merging and tagging.
<NetSKaVeN> hi bobbo
<bobbo> so everyone ready to get started?
<thiebaude> hi bobbo
<Megaqwerty> go for it!
<bobbo> right, before we get properly started this session is called "Beyond The basics" but we wont go into the hardcore details that will bore you all to death
 * NetSKaVeN is ready
<bobbo> instead i'll show you some cool practical stuff, that will hopefully help you in using bzr
<bobbo> if you havent done so already plese run "sudo apt-get install bzr bzr-tools" to get bzr and bzr-tools installed
<LarstiQ> Shouldn't that be bzrtools without the dash?
<bobbo> shout when its installed and you are ready to go
<bobbo> LarstiQ: probably!
<NetSKaVeN> without dash, all ok here
<moreati> ready
<Tonio__> ok for me
<bobbo> ok onto section 1 : Branching and Merging
<meastp> yup
<bobbo> Branching & Merging are two of the core concepts in Bzr.
<bobbo> A branch is "an ordered set of revisions that describe the history of a set of files". A bit of an abstract and confusing concept if you have never worked with bzr before, but it will all become clear after using it for a little.
<bobbo> a branch can also be described as "a line of development for a project"
<bobbo> A merge is simply taking code from one branch and joining (merging) it with another. Here is an example workflow to help you understand:
<bobbo>   1 - Project foobar is a little command line application with a "trunk" bzr branch
<bobbo>    2 - A developer decides it needs a gui, so creates a new branch, based on the old "trunk" branch
<bobbo>    3 - The GUI developer works on the GUI until it is ready to go into the main project code
<bobbo>    4 - Another developer checks the code, decides it is ok and merges it into the trunk. So now the trunk has:
<bobbo>             - All the original code (from before the GUI work started)
<bobbo>             - All the code from the GUI branch
<bobbo>             - Any changes that have been made in trunk since the GUI branch was created (more on this in a second)
<bobbo> If that (not so awesome) description flies right over your head, heres a shiny diagram i made earlier (ignore the big black things, I have no idea what Inkscape was up to earlier): http://bobbo.me.uk/ubuntu/openweek/bzr-branching-merging.svg
<bobbo> shout if you understand and want to move on, or dont get it and want some more explanation :D
<lobo-ptr> let's move on ;)
<NetSKaVeN> o/
<johnsgruber> ok
<meastp> yeah
<bobbo> right so lets have do a practical example of this
<bobbo> We will use Terminator as an example because it has quite a few branches that implement new features (and it is a really cool project). First we need to grab Terminator's trunk branch:
<bobbo>     bzr branch lp:terminator
<bobbo>     cd terminator
<bobbo> Now we have the "trunk" branch of Terminator. This is where the core authors of the project put most of their bugfixes etc, but most large feature changes are done outside of trunk, in their own special branches
<bobbo> This lets developers make large changes to the code, without breaking the main project code
<bobbo>  <james_w> if you grabbed a checkout of terminator in the last session then "cd terminator" and run "bzr unbind" and you will be in the same state as from bobbo's talk <-- Do that :P
<bobbo> Right everyone in a (working) Terminator trunk directory?
<meastp> How can you merge, or rather copy changes between trunk and, say, a stable serie?
<meastp> yes
<Tonio__> yep
<alucardni> done bobbo
<NetSKaVeN> yep
<bobbo> OK, so now we are going to merge in another branch
<bobbo> this is based on Terminator trunk, but instead of implementing all the bugfixes etc going into the main project, this branches author has decided to implement a shiny new feature
<bobbo> So now we run "bzr merge lp:~richiek/terminator/altctrlwin-num_tab_change" to try and merge the new branch into our copy of trunk
<bobbo> Once this has completed it should give you a message like:
<bobbo>    1 conflicts encountered.
<bobbo> This means that bzr tried to automatically merge the two branches together, but since the new author branched terminators trunk, a change has been made (in trunk) that conflicts with the new code (in the branch).
<bobbo> (I could have worded that a little better, everyone understanding?)
<NetSKaVeN> yeah
<johnsgruber> got it
<patrickd_> yup
<lobo-ptr> sure, go on
<meastp> yes
<bobbo> So lets go fix the conflict. Run:
<Tonio__> okk
<bobbo>     bzr conflicts
<bobbo> This will show you where all the conflicts in the source tree are. It should say "terminatorlib/terminator.py", so lets edit it and find where the conflict is.
<bobbo>     gedit terminatorlib/terminator.py
<bobbo> The conflict can be found in between these markers (around line 865):
<bobbo>     <<<<<<< TREE
<bobbo>     =======
<bobbo>     >>>>>>> MERGE-SOURCE
<bobbo>     
<bobbo> everything above the ='s and below <<<<<<< TREE is what is currently in the trunk and everything below the ='s and above >>>>>>> MERGE-SOURCE is what is currently in the branch you are merging
<bobbo> I wont show you completely how to manually merge these, because that requires knowledge of the application and libraries etc. and each merge is different so there is no real need,
<bobbo> But basically you have to work out a way for those two piece of code to co-exist, in a way that doesnt cause the application to explode, but also implement the new feature or bugfix in the branch
<bobbo> So for educational purposes, lets just pretend that we have managed to fix the conflict and are now ready to commit our merge
<bobbo> First off we need to tell bazaar we have actuall fixed the conflict, otherwise it wont let us commit the merge
<bobbo> run "bzr resolve terminatorlib/terminator.py" to tell bzr that everything is fixed.
<bobbo> we would need to repeat the above process for every file that has merge conflicts in it, so merging big patches, after big patches have been applied in trunk can be a little messy and time consuming
<bobbo> finally we need to commit the merge to our copy of trunk: bzr commit -m "Merged in lp:~richiek/terminator/altctrlwin-num_tab_change"
<bobbo> congratulations! You just completed your first bzr merge!
<bobbo> anyone need any time to catch up?
<meastp> no
<NetSKaVeN> all ok here
<Tonio__> ok for me too
<bobbo> right, onto section 2: Tagging!
<Megaqwerty> I'm ready
<bobbo> QUESTION:how can bazaar tell that two sections of code are in conflict ( and will actually break the software) ?
<meastp> ( I'm sorry, I am new to classroom sessions... Am I allowed to ask questions related somewhat to what we are currently doing, or are these 'tutorial' sessions only? )
<bobbo> x_dimitri: I am not sure how it works in the internals of bazaar, but it must check whether the branch and the trunk have changed the same pieces of code
<LarstiQ> bobbo: could you repeat x_dimitri's question?
<bobbo> x_dimitri: it would probably be a good idea to ask a developer about how it works inside bazaar, because it must be pretty complex (as in I dont know, sorry)
<bobbo> LarstiQ:  QUESTION:how can bazaar tell that two sections of code are in conflict ( and will actually break the software) ?
<bobbo> meastp: ask away, though I cant be sure i'll know the answer :D
<x_dimitri> ok
<gourgi> meastp: join #ubuntu-classroom-chat for questions
<bobbo> OK, section 2: Tagging!
<meastp> bobbo: I was told to join the ubuntu-classrom-chat... no worries :)
<bobbo> Bazaar has a useful feature, called tagging, which lets you give a commit to a branch a sensible, human understandable name like "0.2.0-release" or "fixes-bug-375838". This is can be used for tagging releases, release candidates, or whenever you are going to need to easily find a revision number.
<bobbo> i think svn and other "traditional" VCS's have tagging of some sort too, but I have never had the pleasure of working with them, so wouldnt really know :)
<bobbo> So lets try this out in our Terminator branch. You can add a tag to a branch very easily using "bzr tag":
<bobbo>     bzr tag "test-tag"
<bobbo> This will give the latest revision (the last one committed to the branch) the tag "test-tag".
<bobbo> you can delete tags using:
<bobbo>     bzr tag --delete test-tag
<bobbo> To tag an already existing revision we can use:
<bobbo>     bzr tag -r 123 "release-0.1a"
<bobbo> This tags revision 123 with the tag "release-0.1a"
<bobbo> <NetSKaVeN> QUESTION: can you delete any tag or only the last?
<bobbo> You can delete any tag, but it wont delete the revision, just the tagging of that revision
<bobbo> it is also possible to give a revision more than one tag
<bobbo> <andresmujica> QUESTION: Is possible to list the existing tags? how?
<bobbo> yes, running "bzr tags" gives you a full list of all the current tags in the branch
<bobbo> <mbt> QUESTION:  Can you easily retrieve stable revision identifiers from bzr that are consistent between branches and merges?
<bobbo> mbt: Sorry, I have never tried it, so I'm not sure
<LarstiQ> mbt: yes, bzr revision ids are stable
<bobbo> It is also possible to revert to a revision using its tag, for example:
<LarstiQ> mbt: you can see them in log for example with bzr --show-ids log
<LarstiQ> mbt: and use them with revid:, so bzr diff -r revid:<your revid here>
<bobbo>     bzr revert -r tag:release-0.1a
<bobbo> <meastp> Hi, I have recently added my project to lp, with bzr. Currently I have a trunk, and branches for features. But how should I manage releases? E.g if I branch trunk as 1.0 and add to the 1.0 series, how should I keep trunk and the 1.0 series' bugfixes synchronised (with bzr)?
<bobbo> meastp: the way I do it (may not be the best or most efficient way but it works) is to have have the release-1.0 branched from trunk, put all bugfixes etc into trunk and then merge them into the release-1.0 branch (does that make sense?)
<bobbo> The beauty of bazaar is that you can have release-1.0 specific code in the release branch, but also be able to pull in changes from trunk when they are needed
<bobbo> meastp: does that answer your question?
<bobbo> For even more on reading tagging in Bazaar check out http://bazaar-vcs.org/Specs/Tagging
<bobbo> <Tonio__> QUESTION: I have made some uggly modifications and put my hown tag and then commit all that stuff and its ok. But I am not logged to the launchpad. So what does commit exactly ?
<meastp> bobbo: yes, thanks... I'm a bit confused by this workflow. Will look at the link, thanks
<bobbo> Commit in bzr works completely differently to committing in svn or cvs.
<bobbo> IN bazaar, "commit" puts revisions into the local branch (which is sitting on your HD or pen drive)
<bobbo> You need to "push" them onto launchpad (using bzr push) before they will show up there
<bobbo> Tonio__: is that what you were looking for?
<Tonio__> bobbo: Thanks it's clear for me (I am a SVN user)
<bobbo> Tonio__: yeah, it is one of the biggest confusing things for svn users when they come to bzr, the same words meaning almost completely different things :D
<bobbo> Right Section 3 : Extensibility and Modules
<bobbo> On the best things about bazaar (IMO) is that it is very easily extensible.
<bobbo> It is very simple to plug in your own functionalities to the system
<bobbo> There are hundreds of plugins, ranging from useful little tools like creating diffstats (little "graphical" representations of a patch that at a glance tell you how much the patch is changing) to  big complex things like adding dbus or rsync support
<bobbo> There are also several plugins that help you integrate with other version control systems
<bobbo> including support for importing SVN branches into bzr, which is always very handy when you already have existing project infrastructure that you want to move over to bzr
<bobbo> There is a huge big list of plugins on the bazaar website at http://bazaar-vcs.org/BzrPlugins
<bobbo> Most of these will be installable via a setup.py file shipped in their source tar.gz, but if you dont fancy doing that, Debian/Ubuntu also has several (more important) bzr plugins packaged up and in the repositories
<bobbo> You can see a list of these at http://packages.ubuntu.com/search?suite=default&section=all&arch=any&searchon=names&keywords=bzr-
<bobbo> As with all software in the repos, you can just run "suo apt-get install bzr-rebase" and have rebasing support in bazaar
<bobbo> Well thats pretty much all I planned for. Are the any questions?
<bobbo> <biomass> QUESTION: What's rebasing ?
<bobbo> Rebasing is the process of taking a branch and modifying the history so that it appears to start from a different point
<bobbo> This can be useful to clean up the history before submitting your changes. The tree at the end of the process will be the same as if you had merged the other branch, but the history will be different.
<apagano> exit
<bobbo> You can read more about it at http://bazaar-vcs.org/Rebase
<apagano> quit
<bobbo> Anymore questions?
<bobbo> nope? Looks like we can all get away early then!
<bobbo> thanks for listening!
<NetSKaVeN> great session bobbo
<gQuigs> thank you bobbo
<johnsgruber> Thanks much
<lobo-ptr> thanks
<gourgi> thank you bobbo
<alucardni> thanks bobbo
<biomass> thanks bobbo
<Tonio__> Thanks bobbo
<james_w> thanks bobbo
<bobbo> thanks alot guys :D
<weboide> thanks bobbo
<pugliamix> hi everybody - seems I came too late
<WastePotato> What did I miss?
<WastePotato> Can someone pastebin it for me?
<cyphermox> WatePotato: check out https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs, all the logs will be there eventually.
<Megaqwerty> WastePotato: http://paste2.org/p/96434
<WastePotato> Thanks. :)
<emma> I have a question/comment about the Ubuntu Open Week directed to whomever it may concern: First thanks for putting it on. It's fabulous and I wish I could attend just about every event. Having said this, could the next Ubuntu Open Week be held at a more diverse spread of hours? As it is, I think most working people in the western hemisphere will not be able to see many of the events, because 15:00 UTC = 10:00 am on the east coast, which means ...
<emma> ... most people are at work.
<mrooney> emma: well, that just means those people can't ask questions in real-time. You can view it later and ask a question in advance
<mrooney> and you could certainly ask the host any questions you have later via IRC or email, I imagine
<emma> Okay.
<mrooney> But I can see where having it "live" is more fun and interactive
<emma> Yes.
<mrooney> I think jcastro is perhaps the person to ping for this event
<jcastro> It's hard to pick a time when you're trying to hold an event for everyone
<jcastro> we try to do the best we can to fit in a time that is best for everyone
<emma> Yes of course.
<emma> There's no way to please everyone, every event. That's for sure.
<Upayavira> Ubuntu isn't the only open source org that tends to pick that timeframe
<emma> Maybe each UOW could vary or perhaps different days could be for the western hemisphere users.
<jcastro> if I were drowning in people who want to run sessions so we could run one in europe, one in asia, etc. that would be ideal
<jcastro> but we don't
<jcastro> I believe a few years ago some people in germany ran their own openweek-esque type event in their local language and time zone
<emma> Well the main thing is what I said first there. The Ubuntu Open Week is a great idea and I really appreciate the people who put it together :)
<jcastro> If someone were to do that kind of thing it would be great
<emma> If they started 3 hours later that would make a difference I think.
<bbb> nice work jorge et al
<jcastro> thanks bbb!
<rgreening> The presenters would need to be available at that time too. find presenters for earlier slots and then earlier sessions are possible
<rgreening> :)
<jcastro> yeah the problem is presenters usually
<jcastro> not just picking a time for people
<rgreening> hats off jcastro
<emma> Sure I get you.
<jcastro> It would be nice if we had enough contributors to make it a 24 hour thing around the world or something
<jcastro> ok off to dinner, I'll ttyl
<emma> jcastro: If you need help for the next one finding presenters, I am good at that kind of thing.
<bbb> peace
<jcastro> emma: okay
* jcastro changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Next session: 1500UTC, 4Nov | Welcome to Openweek, questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat please || Session details here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
<pinkeytheperky> Hi everyone
#ubuntu-classroom 2008-11-04
<woody86> Hi pinkey :)
<komputes> boredandblogging: hi there nick, nice podcast
<PatrickAupperle> hello
<PatrickAupperle> hi
<PatrickAupperle> hi
<Shailu> hii
<PatrickAupperle> =)
<PatrickAupperle> :)
<morphwvutuba> ignore: #ubuntu-classroom CRAP NOTICES SNOTES CTCPS JOINS PARTS QUITS KICKS MODES WALLOPS NICKS DCC DCCMSGS CLIENTNOTICES CLIENTCRAP CLIENTERRORS HILIGHTS
<jrib> thilmegil: I assume you want it to be writable by users other than root?
<thilmegil> jrib: yes i want all partitions except for / to be writtable by me
<jrib> thilmegil: so what chown command did you try?
<thilmegil> jrib: before my latest re install i had tried sudo chown R- kenny:kenny /path/to/drive
<jrib> thilmegil: the - goes before the R
<thilmegil> jrib: the dash may have been in front of the R i was being walked through by a person from #ubuntu
<jrib> do that now
<thilmegil> jrib: ok
<jrib> thilmegil: and by /path/to/drive you mean /path/to/mount/point right?
<thilmegil> jrib: yes
<thilmegil> jrib: sorry still switching from windows in my head
<thilmegil> jrib: chown has been run
<jrib> ls -ld again
<thilmegil> jrib: now it says kenny kenny where before it said root root
<jrib> thilmegil: you should be able to write now
<thilmegil> so i have to do this for all of my mount points?
<jrib> thilmegil: for the ext ones, yes
<thilmegil> jrib: what about chmod? do i need to do that?
<jrib> thilmegil: no
<thilmegil> what about my ntfs mount points?
<jrib> thilmegil: use ntfs-config
<thilmegil> is this a program or a command?
<jrib> programs are commands, no?
<jrib> thilmegil: you install it in synaptic though
<jrib> it shows up in your menu somewhere
<thilmegil> ok thank you. a program is a list of commands where as a command alone is one command
<thilmegil> at least thats my simpleton view of it
<thilmegil> i could be way off base
<thilmegil> but thank you for your help
<jrib> thilmegil: no problem
<EGCdigital> ...
<slackBuda> hi
<sumit> may i ask when will be the next session ?
<ziroday> sumit: look in the topic
<sumit> thankx
<junaid> how to uninstall kubuntu from ubuntu
<GFORGX> junaid, sudo apt-get remove kubuntu-desktop
<tuspak> hi
<oscarx> hi
<tsatbic> hi
<psicus78> hi
<hophet> when the classroom start?
<hophet> hi
<knome> hophet, topic
<hophet> knome: lets go
<knome> 30mins until the first session.
<hophet> "How to help maintain the packages"
<hophet> or the tree
<knome> edubuntu.
<hophet> sorry, i get it!
<LaserJock> Good morning everybody!
<telebovich> hello
<LaserJock> Welcome to the 2nd day of the Ubuntu Open Week
<Nabi> good morning
<evandar> good evening
<LaserJock> you'll have to forgive me a little bit, it's 7am local time and I'm still waking up ;-)
<LaserJock> OK, so we're going to start off the day with a project that is near and dear to my heart, Edubuntu
<LaserJock> has everybody heard about Edubuntu?
<kippy> yep
<Nabi> yes
<LaserJock> awesome
<fules67> Ã¼dv
<LaserJock> for those of you who don't know, Edubuntu is the Ubuntu "derivative" dedicated to education
<LaserJock> it's an officially supported derivatives, just like Kubuntu
<LaserJock> but rather than focusing on a different desktop environment, it's focused on a different target
<LaserJock> specifically, bringing Ubuntu, open source, free software to kids, students of all ages, teachers, and schools
<LaserJock> Edubuntu has worked on that target by creating a great classroom server
<LaserJock> Edubuntu had pushed LTSP (Linux Terminal Server Project) into schools around the world
<LaserJock> it's also tried to include the best the free software world has to offer in educational tools, such as gcompris, KDE Edu, tux4kids
<LaserJock> QUESTION: can you explain about ltsp a little bit?
<LaserJock> well, I'm not going to go into huge detail about it here, but it's really pretty awesome, IMO
<lordnoid> lol
<LaserJock> the basic idea is that you have a central server, where all the programs and administration takes place
<LaserJock> then "thin clients" connect to that server and an "image" is loaded up in RAM on the client that then connects to the server
<LaserJock> so you can run say 30 clients off of one server
<LaserJock> and you have *1* machine to administrate
<LaserJock> the thin clients don't even need a hard drive
<LaserJock> I would point people to http://ltsp.org and #ltsp for more info
<LaserJock> LTSP is not only used a lot in education, but also in corporate settings
<LaserJock> and you can install it from the Ubuntu Alternate CD
<LaserJock> any other questions so far?
<LaserJock> ok, moving on then :-)
<LaserJock> QUESTION: Can Edubuntu used in primary school and in secondary school as well?
<LaserJock> Edubuntu can be used in *any* school, IMO
<LaserJock> we've used it in university labs before
<LaserJock> the "theme" is quite a bit more suited for young children and elementary schools
<LaserJock> but that can easily be changed
<LaserJock> we try to have 2 themes generally, a "young" one and one that's more suitable for secondary and tertiary
<gmoreno> Question: How edubuntu protects or promote the free knowledge?
<LaserJock> in terms of applications, it's mostly focused on pre-school and elementary right now, but I'm trying to move us more into secondary and tertiary as well
<LaserJock> Well, Edubuntu certainly tries to protect and promote free knowledge by protecting and promoting free software
<LaserJock> As the project develops I think we are going to start seeing more "free" content as well, we've thought about things like including free, scaled down Wikipedia content for instance
<LaserJock> UESTION: Are there any architectural differences in Edubuntu vs Ubuntu? or is there difference in softwares only?
<LaserJock> QUESTION: What are the most obvious difference for a desktop user between Edubuntu and Ubuntu?
<LaserJock> ok, so that brings me to some technical bits of what exactly Edubuntu is
<LaserJock> so technically right now Edubuntu is shipped as an addon CD to Ubuntu
<LaserJock> Edubuntu started it's history (ancient by Ubuntu standards ;-) ) as a normal derivative
<LaserJock> 1 CD installer with LTSP and some educational apps
<LaserJock> however we out grew our single CD
<LaserJock> so over a year ago we split into 1 installer CD + 1 addon CD
<LaserJock> then for Hardy (8.04) we decided to drop the installer CD as it was mostly redundant with the existing Ubuntu CD
<LaserJock> so LTSP now resides on the Ubuntu Alternate CD
<LaserJock> and the educational programs are on the Edubuntu CD
<LaserJock> but Edubuntu is really educational content
<LaserJock> we "derive" from Ubuntu in that we require an Ubuntu desktop as a base
<LaserJock> we're also working some on package that would base off of Kubuntu, but we haven't had a ton of interest there
<LaserJock> so the most obvious differences are going to be 1) theme, artwork 2) a lot of educational programs in the menu
<LaserJock> 3) LTSP goodness if you want it
<LaserJock> QUESTION: What about the communication with other similar project like skolelinux, etc? Is it going to be extended?
<LaserJock> We naturally have pretty good communication with Debian, as Ubuntu as a whole derives from Debian
<ys76> q/win 21
<LaserJock> in the past people from K12LTSP and skolelinux have come to some of the Ubuntu Developer Summits
<LaserJock> we try to keep good communication open, especially around LTSP, but of course that can always be improved
<LaserJock> QUESTION: what edubuntu can offer to a programmer student for example?
<LaserJock> well, Edubuntu specifically isn't going to offer you much right now
<LaserJock> Ubuntu is simply *awesome* for programming students though
<LaserJock> and Edubuntu has had a Google Summer of Code project for instance working on a Python "test" grader and teaching tool
<LaserJock> but people should realize that Edubuntu is a very small community
<LaserJock> with only 2-3 developers at any given time
<LaserJock> so we'd love to see people join and work on new educational apps, but we mostly rely on other people (called upstreams) to write software
<LaserJock> telebovich: does that answer your question some?
<telebovich> yes
<LaserJock> so Edubuntu is the first official derivative to do the addon thing
<LaserJock> I think we might see more of it
<LaserJock> but it does create some unique issues
<LaserJock> as people are used to 1 CD installs
<LaserJock> but it gives us 700MB of room for the stuff that kids, students, teachers, and schools really care about
<LaserJock> now we want to fill that up with the best open source/free software and content
<LaserJock> so that's most of the info on what Edubuntu actually is: a addon CD on top of Ubuntu that can be used to either set up a Classroom Server (via LTSP) or a educational workstation
<LaserJock> QUESTION: What are the biggest challenges facing Edubuntu and getting it into schools?
<LaserJock> ok, that's a really good question
<LaserJock> it really surprised me how hard it is to get Edubuntu (or any Linux OS) into schools
<LaserJock> on the face of it one my think, "well it's so much cheaper, it's simple"
<LaserJock> *might
<LaserJock> but there are 2 primary challenges
<LaserJock> 1) cost of transition
<LaserJock> it takes quite a bit of work to completely convert a school from all-Microsoft to all-Edubuntu
<LaserJock> and in fact most schools will never reach that
<LaserJock> most schools have a mixed environment of Edubuntu in classroom labs and Microsoft elswhere
<denisbr> Hello !!
<LaserJock> 2) curriculum inertia or curriculum conformance
<LaserJock> schools have standard ways of doing things
<LaserJock> many schools are mandated as to what they must teach in a computer curriculum
<LaserJock> and quite often standards are wrapped around Microsoft products (such as MS Office)
<LaserJock> or there are programs that students must use for testing, etc. that only run on Windows
<LaserJock> that's a pretty big hurdle there, but in many areas of the world we're gaining ground
<LaserJock> the Latin American countries really seem to be grabbing on to open source/free software
<LaserJock> some European countries also are doing quite a bit
<LaserJock> QUESTION: i'd like to know more about whether you plan on supporting common windows packages through wine/vms etc
<LaserJock> ;-)
<LaserJock> at this time we really don't have any plans to no
<catonano> Some european countries ? Which ones ? I'm just curious
<LaserJock> Spain and Macedonia are the ones that come to mind
<catonano> thanks
<LaserJock> Macedonia ordered up 100k Edubuntu computers for it's schools
<gmoreno> comment: in latin american, especially Venezuela, the Free Software is winning big battles against the bussiness model of Microsoft... elementary school is right now teaching Ubuntu an Debian as the first Operative Sysytem
<LaserJock> the problem with supporting particular windows programs, is that there are so very many of them
<LaserJock> and this is a general issue with educational OSes in general
<Nuc134rB0t> i live in Venezuela :)
<gmoreno> me too :P
<LaserJock> each country require different programs, each state, district, town, etc. may have it's own requirements
<LaserJock> so it's very difficult for use to go through all the possibilities
<catonano> I see
<LaserJock> so our current strategy is to provide the best free/open source bits and let schools adapt them and put them together as needed
<LaserJock> *however* wine is certainly available to them
<LaserJock> but with only 2-3 developers we don't have resources to go through and make sure Windows apps work in wine
<LaserJock> but it would be, IMO, a very cool project to have somebody test common Windows educational apps and put that on a wiki page
<LaserJock> UESTION: there are any ideas about the fact that not only help the schools using Edubuntu, but as something to interact with school-developers?
<LaserJock> darn, I keep missing that Q :-)
<Nuc134rB0t> no problem we know what you meant
<LaserJock> well, we really try to get the whole "stack" of people involved in education sort of "in the loop"
<LaserJock> we talk to students, teachers, IT admins, school administrators, all the way up to occasionally Ministers of Education or similar
<LaserJock> I'd personally *love* to interact with people who are writing educational code
<LaserJock> I want to know how I, as an Edubuntu developer, can make their life easier as well as perhaps give a place for their code to live that will help other people
<LaserJock> we have had a couple Ubuntu Education Summits
<LaserJock> that are similar to the Ubuntu Developer Summits, but more about education and how we can get Linux into schools
<LaserJock> we also have a fairly active mailing list, edubuntu-users (on lists.ubuntu.com) that often has discussion on new apps, etc.
<LaserJock> UESTION: Are there any other projects that are available as addon CDs like Edubuntu is? The idea of having a common base system and being able to add specific functionality by downloading one CD seems quite useful
<LaserJock> not in the "official" Ubuntu landscape no
<LaserJock> most derivatives need to have a different CD because they're changing core "bits"
<LaserJock> like the desktop environment (for Xubuntu and Kubuntu)
<kippy> perhaps outside the Ubuntu bioshpere?
<LaserJock> I think as we work on smoothing out some of the rough spots of having and addon CD it might get better
<LaserJock> well, there are a number of projects that do "addon" stuff
<LaserJock> but usually it's sort of unofficial and scripted
<LaserJock> i.e. "run this shell script and it will install all the goodies"
<LaserJock> we actually use Ubuntu's Add/Remove technology and have our own little "installer" hook
<LaserJock> so that when you pop in an Edubuntu CD it pops up a dialog for you to start installing software
<LaserJock> and we try to bundle it in such a way as to make it easy for people to install "bundles" of software
<LaserJock> and we'll certainly be developing that as we go along
<LaserJock> QUESTION: As it's unlikely developers will target only Linux, do Edubuntu developers recommend a particular development environment for cross platform educational tools?  Java, Flash, .Net, Web/AJAX?
<LaserJock> well, Ubuntu loves Python
<LaserJock> and so do I
<LaserJock> if you're going to either teach programming or are comfortable enough to use a "real" programming environment I'd certainly recommend Python
<LaserJock> Flash is always tricky as we don't yet have a very stable/reliable free flash player
<LaserJock> between Java, .Net/mono, and python I'd personally pick Python
<LaserJock> for toolkits it's sort of up to you
<LaserJock> I think Qt is particularly good in terms of having a nice looking, cross-platform, and easy to code GUI toolkit
<LaserJock> so PyQT is a good option to look at
<LaserJock> Ruby rocks for sure
<LaserJock> but it doesn't quite have as much as Python in terms of libraries that would be relevant for education, IMO
<LaserJock> if you look at things like pygame and even scipy/matplotlib for sciences
<LaserJock> *but* bottom line
<LaserJock> Ubuntu is a great place to code
<LaserJock> just like most Linux distros
<LaserJock> because we have C/C++, ruby, python, Java, .Net/mono, ....
<LaserJock> and it's all free and open source software
<LaserJock> so students can dig into their computers and learn about things
<LaserJock> rather than just being stuck learning how to run menus on some proprietary app
<LaserJock> I think that's one of the true goals of Edubuntu
<LaserJock> to get students to not just use their computer but to really think about how they can effectively change their software to suit their needs
<LaserJock> ok, we're getting close to the end here
<LaserJock> are there any last questions?
<gmoreno> thanks for the answers
<catonano> Thank you
<LaserJock> QUESTION: Why doesn't Shipit distribute Edubuntu?
<LaserJock> I think that could be due to being an Addon CD
<LaserJock> for us to completely ship the everything you need we'd have to ship 2 CDs
<LaserJock> as postage/printing isn't free Canonical makes decisions on what it can afford
<LaserJock> I'd like to get it back for sure in the future though
<Maurici1> Thanks Laserjock, it was a very nice presentation....clap, clap, clap, clap
<LaserJock> OK, in the last couple minutes here I'd like to give you some resource and give a bit about what you can do to help
<LaserJock> Our website is http://www.edubuntu.org
<LaserJock> we also use the ubuntu wiki so there's resources at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu
<Nuc134rB0t> thanks a lot LaserJock
<dholbach> thanks LaserJock!
<LaserJock> we have an IRC channel, #edubuntu, and 2 mailing lists, edubuntu-devel and edubuntu-users on lists.ubuntu.com
<LaserJock> we also have a number of Launchpad teams that people can join
<LaserJock> we need *all* kinds of contributors from all technical levels
<LaserJock> artists, documentation writers, bug squashers, packagers, coders, support people, etc.
<LaserJock> NOTE: we will be having a planning IRC meeting tomorrow at 18:00 UTC in #ubuntu-meeting
<LaserJock> if you have *any* interest in Edubuntu please try to stop by, we'll make it worth your time
<LaserJock> and with that I'm done :-)
<dholbach> HELLO MY FRIENDS! :-)
 * sebner hugs dholbach =)
<dholbach> Who's here for the "Packaging 101" session? :-)
<alexharrington> me
<lvzimmer> me
 * lobo-ptr puts his fiiiiiiiinger up
<radix> hi :-)
<kippy> +1
<charlie-tca> me
<Webspot> yup
<Net> Clap, clap, clap!
<dholbach> and I guess the rest of the 237 people in here are just too shy to say "me me me!" :-)
<chillitom> Cheers LaserJock.. Good luck!
<dholbach> alright... let's get cracking
 * stefanlsd hugs dholbach!
<niemeyer> dholbach: Thay all agree
 * dholbach hugs stefanlsd back :)
<RainCT> heh
 * sebner feels ignored by dholbach :P
<dholbach> my name is Daniel Holbach, I've been member of the MOTU team for quite a while, have been involved in all kinds of teams but what I always got back to was: listening to new contributors, trying to find out what could make their lives easier and hear lots of enthusiasm in our ubuntu development community every day
 * dholbach hugs sebner back :)
<sebner> :)
<dholbach> as you can see (first lesson maybe): we hug a lot in the Ubuntu community :-)
<dholbach> so what are we going to do in the session?
<dholbach> we'll take a look at a simple package, identify all the key parts and I'll try to answer all the questions that come up
<dholbach> these key parts you will find in any package you might touch later on
<dholbach> there's one tool we're going to need, so please run
<dholbach>   sudo apt-get install devscripts
<dholbach> and afterwards:
<dholbach>   dget -xu http://daniel.holba.ch/motu/hello-debhelper_2.2-2.dsc
<dholbach> please let me know in #ubuntu-classroom-chat if you have any questions or run into trouble
<ciprian_topala> m2a
<dholbach> what this does is: get the source package of hello-debhelper (eqivalent of 'apt-get source hello-debhelper' - I just wanted to make sure we all have the same source package we're looking at)
<dholbach> (you might need to run    dget -x <url>   if you're on hardy) :)
<dholbach> if you look at your current working directory, you'll see three files and a directory
<dholbach> ... at least ... :)
<dholbach> hello-debhelper_2.2.orig.tar.gz is the unchanged upstream tarball that was released on the GNU FTP page
<dholbach> hello-debhelper_2.2-2.diff.gz is the compressed patch (set of changes) we need to apply to make the source package build in the debian/ubuntu world
<dholbach> hello-debhelper_2.2-2.dsc contains some metadata like md5sums, etc
<dholbach> the   hello-debhelper-2.2   directory is the extracted tarball plus the applied packaging changes
<dholbach> <demas_> QUESTION: When I install devscripts, apt-get install Exim.  Why?
<dholbach> demas_: it's pulled in via some recommends - you can safely remove it (or install without recommends - can somebody help demas_?)
<demas_> thanks
<dholbach>   cd hello-debhelper-2.2
<stefanlsd> demas_: I like to install ssmtp first instead. exim wont be pulled in then.
<RainCT> demas_: try with --no-install-recommends
<dholbach> if you check the contents of the directory you will see that it looks and feels like a regular source tarball you downloaded
<dholbach> with the exception of the    debian/   directory
<dholbach>   cd debian/
<dholbach> this directory contains all the files that are needed to make the package build "our way"
<dholbach> what does that mean?
<dholbach> hello-debhelper is a simple project written in C, if you'd build it yourself, you'd probably run something like: ./configure --make-it-extra-fancy; make; sudo make install
<dholbach> if it was a python project, you'd probably run:   python setup.py build;   sudo python setup.py install  or some such
<dholbach> etc. etc.
<dholbach> a lot of projects require different methods to make them build or install stuff to some directory
<dholbach> in the Debian / Ubuntu packaging world we just apply one build process, for all kinds of packages
<dholbach> ok, let's check out the contents one by one
<dholbach> changelog is what the name says: it describes all the changes that were made
<dholbach> but only the changes necessary for the packaging - it's not an upstream changelog
<dholbach> if you look at the top line you can see
<dholbach> <source package name> (<upstreamversion>-<debian/ubuntu revision>) <distro-release>; urgency=<something>
<dholbach> upstream version is 2.2
<dholbach> debian revision is -2
<dholbach> that means 2 revisions of the upstream 2.2 have been uploaded to debian
<dholbach> it was not modified in Ubuntu at all
<dholbach> (you can ignore the urgency setting, we don't use it in Ubuntu)
<catonano> sorry in the changelog, the first rows are like this, to me:
<catonano> 2006-11-23  Karl Berry  <karl@gnu.org>
<catonano> 	* Version 2.2.
<catonano> 	
<catonano> 	* Makefile.am (po-check): add utility target (from coreutils).
<dholbach> catonano: we're in the  debian/  directory
<dholbach> catonano: take a look at debian/changelog
<catonano> oh yes, sorry
<dholbach> but you're right... ChangeLog is the upstream changelog (containing information from the software authors)
<dholbach> every changelog entry should contain useful information about what was changed
<dholbach> this is very important, especially in Ubuntu
<dholbach> we maintain all packages as a team - even if you don't mind figuring out what the hell you changed half a year ago, it's very nice if you colleagues and friends don't have to guess what
<dholbach>   * did some changes to make it work again
<dholbach> means :)
<dholbach> also it contains the timestamp of the change and who changed it
<dholbach> we have a fancy tool in devscripts called  dch  that automatically adds templates for you, so you don't have to figure it out yourself :)
<dholbach> we can ignore the  compat  file, it's not so interesting (compatibility setting for debhelper, that was used for the packaging)
<catonano> ahem...I'm sorry I have to ask a stupid question again :-(
<dholbach> catonano: no problem - would you mind asking in #ubuntu-classroom-chat the next time? :)
<dholbach> catonano: shoot
<catonano> I can't find the debian folder. This is what I see:
<catonano> adriano@adriano-laptop:~/debhelper/hello-2.2$ ls
<catonano> ABOUT-NLS   ChangeLog    configure.ac  INSTALL      NEWS    tests
<catonano> aclocal.m4  ChangeLog.O  contrib       Makefile.am  po      THANKS
<catonano> AUTHORS     config.in    COPYING       Makefile.in  README  TODO
<catonano> build-aux   configure    gnulib        man          src
<catonano> adriano@adriano-laptop:~/debhelper/hello-2.2$
<dholbach> catonano: go back to the directory with the .dsc .diff.gz and .orig.tar.gz files
<catonano> I'm there
<dholbach> and run  dpkg-source -x hello-debhelper_2.2-2.dsc
<dholbach> it's the magic command that   dget -x(u)   runs for you
<dholbach> alright... let's crack on
<dholbach> the next file is important and maybe a bit less obvious
<catonano> thanks, I saw that
<dholbach>   control   contains information about the source package and the binary packages
<dholbach> so what's the difference?
<dholbach> the source package comprises of the .diff.gz .dsc and .orig.tar.gz files and is what we need to hack on packages, it contains source
<dholbach> the binary packages are the .deb files that my mother does not know about, but installs and updates regularly :)
<dholbach> <demas_> QUESTION: Where can I find more information about dch? Do I need to launch this script or it is a part another script?
<dholbach> demas_: just run   man dch   - I'll give you a couple of links for more infos and tutorials later on
<demas_> thanks
<dholbach> alright... control file
<dholbach> if you take a closer look at it, you will see that it's split into two stanzas
<dholbach> the first one is always about the source package
<dholbach> and the following ones (in our case luckily just one) are about the resulting binary packages
<dholbach> the source package definition contains: the name of the source (usually just what the upstream developers decided to call it), some section, some priority and a maintainer field
<dholbach> these should be pretty obvious (the debian policy explains which values are allowed for the priority and the section)
<dholbach> Standards-Version describes which version of the debian-policy the package complys with
<dholbach> in this case it's 3.7.2
<dholbach> the next line is very interesting: it tells us which packages are required to build the package
<dholbach> this is nothing my mother has to install to get the all the goodness that hello-debhelper is, it's what we need to build the package
<dholbach> and also what the build machines in the data center need to build the package
<dholbach> so what happens when I upload a source package to the build machines?
<dholbach> first it will check the GPG signature to see if it was really me who uploaded it, it will check if it knows about me at all
<dholbach> then unpack the source package, then enter a minimal environment (that contains nothing but just a few build tools), then install the build-depends
<dholbach> this is to make sure that it builds in a clean environment
<dholbach> you will explicitly have to point out what's required :)
<dholbach> <cyphermox> QUESTION: what is the Standards-Version used for? Won't lintian complain in different contexts, about the Standards-Version you use?
<dholbach> cyphermox: if you're the package maintainer and you learn that the new debian policy requires something, you will make the necessary fixes and update the Standards-Version
<dholbach> for those of you who don't know: lintian is a tool that checks for all kinds of mistakes in packaging, it's seriously good stuff
<dholbach> cyphermox: lintian will always want you to use the newest debian-policy it knows about :)
<cyphermox> alright!
<dholbach> but bumping the standards-version just for the sake of bumping it is unnecessary and you shouldn't do an upload of a package just for that :)
<dholbach> <wolfger> QUESTION: What would Depends look like if we had some real dependencies?
<dholbach> wolfger: I'll get to the depends in just a sec
<dholbach> let's get to the binary package section now
<dholbach> the name is pretty obvious: it's the name of the package that my mother might install
<dholbach> Architecture is interesting: in our case it's "Any" and will tell the build machines to build this on every architecture that's available in the data center
<dholbach> so i386, amd64, powerpc, hppa, lpia, sparc, etc
<dholbach> this is necessary if you have architecture dependent code
<dholbach> compiling C code on i386 and on amd64 will give you different results
<dholbach> if your package just needs a few python scripts or just ships some HTML files (something-doc package), you will set  Architecture: all
<dholbach> which means: all architectures will use one and the same package (and the package gets only built on one build machine)
<dholbach> now we get to "Depends:"
<dholbach> this is the packages you need to install to make the package work
<dholbach> in our cases it's pretty funny: ${shlibs:Depends}
<dholbach> this doesn't look like a package name, right you are :)
<dholbach> it's a substitution variable
<dholbach> ${shlibs:Depends} will at the end of the build be replaced with all the names of packages that contain libraries that the binary files in hello-debhelper are linked against
<dholbach> I hope that was not too cryptic :)
<dholbach> so if /usr/bin/hello in the resulting hello-debhelper package is linked against /lib/libc.so.6 the package will automagically depends on libc6
<dholbach> <bhk_f> dholbach: QUESTION: "Architecture: all" Vs. "Architecture: any" difference ?
<dholbach> bhk_f: I explained it above, in short: "any" => build on every release architecture because of architecture dependant resulting code (C, C++, etc, etc), "all": all architectures use the same package, architecture indepedent
<dholbach> <poef> QUESTION: If I modify someone elses package and build new sources (and binaries), should I use Original-Maintainer or XSBC-Original-Maintainer? What's XSBC?
<dholbach> poef: that's an Ubuntu speciality. our friends at Debian asked us to change the maintainer fields whenever we do changes so they don't get mails from our users about bugs, etc
<dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebianMaintainerField has more info about that and the  update-maintainer  tool (ubuntu-dev-tools package) is useful for that
<dholbach> XSBC stand for:
<dholbach> X = custom header entry
<dholbach> S = add it to the source package
<dholbach> B = add it to the binary package
<dholbach> C = add it to the .changes file
<dholbach> <demas_> QUESTION: Can I rely on ${shlibs:Depends} variable or sometimes I need to fill this field manually
<dholbach> demas_: yes, it's really good stuff and you should never have to explicitly list library package names
<dholbach> because sometimes library package change their names (ABI breakage, etc), in those cases you can just rebuild the package and it will have the new library package name as a resulting depends
<dholbach> it's REALLY good stuff
<dholbach> <demas_> QUESTION: How system can know really packages to replace Depends variable?  Where can it find this information?
<dholbach> I can't go into too much detail here about it, but if you check the output of  ldd <some binary>  you will see the libraries it's linked against
<dholbach> the library packages contain SHLIBS information, which will show which library with which soname relates to which library package
<dholbach> this is automatically generated as well
<dholbach> <demas_> QUESTION:  For example, I create python program which uses sql-alchemy.  How Depends variable can understand that my package depends on the python-sqlalchemy package ?
<dholbach> demas_: unforunately there is no automagic for python
<dholbach> demas_: ${python:Depends} will just give you the current python versions
<dholbach> alright... let's move on :)
<dholbach> Conflicts: hello
<dholbach> Provides: hello
<dholbach> Replaces: hello
<dholbach> these entries basically make sure that hello and hello-debhelper are not installed at the same time
<dholbach> they are both the same examples, just one time built with debhelper (packaging tool) and one time without it
<dholbach> the rest of the   control   file is just a short and along description which you will see in aptitude/synaptic/adept/etc.
<dholbach> I picked an easy example for this session, but there are packages the build like literally 100 binary packages from one source
<dholbach> just for kicks, try out
<dholbach>   $ apt-cache showsrc mono
<dholbach> take a look at the "Binary:" section
<dholbach> :-)
<dholbach> <bhk_f> QUESTION: last time i packaged a python app, it needed a setup.py before i could debianize it, so thats twice the effort, even ubuntu wiki suggested this way, is this the only recommended approach ?
<dholbach> bhk_f: unfortunately there are lots and lots of different ways to package something - I like using distutils (in setup.py) because it makes writing debian/rules trivial, but there are other ways for sure
<dholbach> let's move on, we're running late :)
<dholbach> the  copyright  file explains who the authors of the package are, what licenses each and every part are under and who the copyright holders are
<dholbach> getting all this information is time-consuming and something we shouldn't take lightly
<RainCT> bhk_f: if you use cdbs but there's no setup.py you can just ommit the python-distutils.mk include and call dh_pycentral/dh_pysupport directly in the binary-install/<pkgname>:: target (and more or less the same is true if you don't use cdbs)
<dholbach> it's important to get this right before you upload the package, because the archive admins look at every bit and make sure that we can ship it at all and that you got all the licensing bits right
<dholbach> saying "but COPYRIGHT said it was GPLv3" is not enough
<dholbach> you need to check all the source ane make sure you listed all the bits that were "borrowed from somewhere else" as well
<dholbach> <cyphermox> dholbach: QUESTION: in the mono example, what does dfsg stand for in the Version line: Version: 1.9.1+dfsg-4ubuntu2
<dholbach> cyphermox: DFSG stands for debian free software guidelines - this is something we follow as well
<dholbach> sometimes we have to remove certain bits from the upstream code we're shipping to comply with the DFSG
<lvzimmer> ll
<dholbach> in this case   1.9.1   is not the "upstream version number", but "1.9.1+dfsg"
<dholbach> sometimes just having a chat with the upstream developers about it is enough to get the issue resolved
<cyphermox> ok.
<dholbach> in the particular case of mono, I don't know what the issue was
<dholbach> ok, let's come to the last piece of the puzzle: debian/rules
<dholbach> this is the heart of the packaging process and it would take very long to go through it very carefully
<dholbach> basically it's a Makefile with specific targets
<dholbach> the clean target is similar to what "make clean" would normally do
<dholbach> the install target takes care of installing the resulting files into the right places
<dholbach> you can see that we run ./configure as well, etc.
<dholbach> note all the   dh_*  calls towards the bottom of the file
<dholbach> these are all debhelper commands that make packaging very simple, common packaging tasks: like compress the changefiles, update the database of menu entries, etc are done almost automatically for us
<dholbach> there are toolkits like CDBS that simplify this Makefile even more
<dholbach> if you're interested in packaging and getting involved, please check out https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/GettingStarted
<dholbach> it links to the packaging guide (including tutorials)
<dholbach> it links to tutorial videos on youtube
<dholbach> it explains how to get in touch with developers and lists simple tasks you can get started with
<dholbach> <dsestero> QUESTION: I am considering packaging Java J2EE applications. Is that a viable route? Are there any special steps needed to package this kind of applications that run in a container like JBoss AS? Are there any tutorial you would suggest?
<dholbach> dsestero: definitely, watch out for the next Ubuntu Java meeting - there are people who can explain much better what's required for that
<dholbach> <hophet> QUESTION: I packed a binary tool from ibm, but i havent the source code. Can i put it in the tree? (Sorry by my poor english)
<dholbach> hophet: if the resulting binary is redistributable at all, it might get into multiverse, I'm not sure how likely that is - it really depends on the licensing terms
<dholbach> getting it to build from source would be MUCH MUCH better
<dholbach> OK my friends... thanks a lot for this great session - I had a lot of fun and hope so did you
<dholbach> I hope to see you all in #ubuntu-motu soon
<dholbach> jaunty is   Y O U R   development cycle - make me proud :-)
<Nuc134rB0t> thanks dholbach for this session
<dholbach> thanks Nuc134rB0t - I'm glad you're happy :)
 * RainCT hugs dholbach :)
 * dholbach hugs y'all!
<dholbach> next up is Mr James james_w Westby!
<cyphermox> thanks dholbach
<rizitis> dholbach thank you!
* stdin changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Current session: Debian and Ubuntu with James Westby | Welcome to Openweek, questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat please | Session details here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
<dholbach> delivering a great session about Debian and Ubuntu
<james_w> thanks dholbach
<james_w> I'll give you all a minute or two to calm down after a whole hour with dholbach :-)
<dholbach> hehe
 * sebner hugs james_w in the meantime =)
<chillitom> thanks dholbach, great stuff
<Nuc134rB0t> haha thank would be rly helpful
<james_w> right
<james_w> are we all sitting comfortably?
<barcc> +1
<james_w> then let us begin
<james_w> Hi, my name is James Westby, and I am an Ubuntu MOTU, and a Debian contributor, and I'm going to tell you more about the relationship between Ubuntu and Debian.
<Nuc134rB0t> welcome james
<james_w> First though, I'll go over a really simple question for those that don't know, "What is Debian?"
<james_w> Debian is another Operating System that has been around for many years. It is linux-based, though there are people working on making it work on top of other kernels.
<james_w> You can read more about it if you go to http://www.debian.org/
<james_w> It's a really great OS, and it has a lot of users who really care for it, and a huge number of developers, including Mr. Mark Shuttlewoth himself.
<james_w> So, what does that have to do with Ubuntu?
<james_w> When Mark was creating Ubuntu he looked at Debian (because he was part of it), and wanted to change a few things about it, so he created Ubuntu.
<james_w> They differ in a few ways, for instance the way we organise ourselves, the process to get membership, and some technical differences.
<james_w> The major difference for me is that they differ in aims. The sort of motto of Debian is "The Universal OS", and they would like to support many things that people want to do.
<james_w> For instance, as well as normal PC architectures you can run Debian on many different architectures, like your big-iron servers, or your tiny embedded computer, and it is all the same Debian.
<james_w> This however takes a lot of effort. Ubuntu sacrifices this to only work on a few architectures, and so doesn't need to do all of the work, meaning that effort can be focused on other places.
<james_w> It works the same in other areas too. Ubuntu tends to pick one solution to a problem and make that work really well, whereas Debian will often try and support every solution.
<james_w> They are equally valid approaches, it just depends what you want out of your distribution.
<james_w> Another big difference is that it's a lot harder to become a member of the Debian project, and it's almost impossible for non-developers.
<james_w> Perhaps because of this Debian is lacking in people for non-development tasks.
<james_w> There is some discussion currently about changing this, so we will wait to see what happens.
<james_w> <catonano> QUESTION: does that mean that, for example, Debian would support both ALSA and Pulseaudio, ehile Debian would support Pulseaudio only ?
<james_w> catonano: assuming you meant the second "Debian" to be "Ubuntu", then yes, sort of.
<james_w> it doesn't always work that way, for instance Ubuntu supports GNOME, KDE and Xfce.
<james_w> but look at MTAs, Ubuntu mainly focuses on postfix, but Debian spreads its effort between exim, postfix, sendmail, etc.
<james_w> Any more questions about what Debian is, or how it differs from Ubuntu?
<mneptok> james_w: let's be clear, though. the Ubuntu project supports people creating derivatives with other WMs or DEs, but Canonical as a corporate entity behind the Ubuntu Project does not offer commercial support for such derivatives.
<mneptok> (i.e. you can buy professional support for Ubuntu and Kubuntu, but not XubuntuA)
<mneptok> -A
<james_w> mneptok: true. However, development focus is often on picking the best and making it better.
 * mneptok nods
<james_w> <Nuc134rB0t> QUESTION: Which one would you recommend to a new Gnu/Linux user non-developer as the best ditro to start with Free Software? Debian or Ubuntu
<james_w> that's a hard question to answer.
<james_w> many people will recommend Ubuntu to new users, as it puts a lot of effort in to working "out of the box"
<james_w> Debian is catching up in that respect though
<james_w> apart from that, it kind of depends what you are looking for
<macaco> bien dia
<james_w> so I would suggest you try a live-CD of both, and see which you prefer.
<Nuc134rB0t> thanks
<james_w> I said that Ubuntu is based on Debian, what did I mean by that?
<james_w> I meant that when Ubuntu started it just imported Debian, and then started modifying things from there.
<james_w> This process carries on. We are just starting development on Jaunty, and just about to start the activity known as "merging".
<james_w> During this time we pull in all of the updates done in Debian since the last time we did this, and integrate them in to the Ubuntu packages, so all the improvements (and some new bugs, unfortunately) in Debian end up in Ubuntu.
<james_w> We don't have to do this manually for all 15000 source packages in Ubuntu though, it's only a small fraction of packages that are modified in Ubuntu, for the rest we just pull in whatever Debian currently has.
<james_w> <jimbodoors> QUESTION: do you think is better debian for a new user tooking about stability?
<james_w> jimbodoors: Ubuntu releases every 6 months, Debian releases "when it's ready", typically every 6 months
<james_w> er, typically around every 18 months sorry
<james_w> so Debian stable releases will typically be more stable than Ubuntu releases
<jimbodoors> but have a relly stability distribution
<rizitis> -james_w: what is your opinion for this (â - Whenâs the new debian release? - When itâs ready!â) ?
<james_w> however, there is a trade off. To do this Debian freezes earlier in it's development cycle, so the packages it releases with are already a bit more out of date.
<james_w> and as you have to wait 18 months for a new release they become very out of date.
<james_w> This long-term stability is good for large deployments and the like, and is the reason that Ubuntu has its LTS releases
<james_w> so you can find the release that balances stability with updates that suits you
<james_w> note though that long-term support and bug-free are two different things
<james_w> there is another way though. Debian has rolling releases known as "testing" and "unstable".
<james_w> Using them you can get fairly recent stuff, but it would be like running an Ubuntu beta release, not for those who can't deal with their X server not starting
<james_w> or who don't want a lot of changes
<james_w> I could debate the merits of different release strategies all day, but we should move on
<james_w> We also send some of our improvements and bug-fixes back to Debian, so that they can benefit too. This is a great help for both sides, as Debian gets the improvements, and Ubuntu can stop maintaining them.
<james_w> Merging is a good activity if you want to get involved in Ubuntu development, so join #ubuntu-motu if you want to join in.
<james_w> It does require some technical knowledge, but it doesn't usually require actual coding or patching, but just working out what has changed, and what you need to do.
<james_w> <chillitom> QUESTION: what is being done to fight the commonly expressed opinion (not mine) that Ubuntu doesn't contribute enough to upstream/Debian?
<james_w> chillitom: two things really.
<james_w> firstly, contributing to Debian.
<james_w> Ubuntu hasn't always done as it should here, but we are trying to improve things in that area
<james_w> it's never been as bad as some people would have you believe though
<james_w> the second one is making sure our contributions are visible.
<james_w> bhk_f> QUESTION: Any statistics on contribution of Ubuntu to Debian Stable ?
<james_w> I doubt Ubuntu contributes anything to Debian stable
<james_w> Debian doesn't contribute much (proportionally) to Debian stable
<james_w> they only push critical and security fixes to stable, and they are quite capable of taking care of that
<james_w> also, Ubuntu development is based of Debian unstable, and is currently about 18 months away from Debian stable, so the issues we are hitting are probably not the ones Debian stable users are hitting
<james_w> having said that the Ubuntu security team typically ensures that security patches we have are in the Debian BTS to make things easy for the Debian security team for those cases where we patch it first.
<james_w> we try and push our fixes to Debian unstable, as that is the correct place for them.
<james_w> we do have some information on that, but it's not complete (it requires action from the submitter and some people forget/don't bother)
<james_w> see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Debian/Usertagging for details
<james_w> http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/pkgreport.cgi?tag=origin-ubuntu;users=ubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com shows the bugs forwarded by Ubuntu where the person that did it tagged it
<james_w> <gscholz> QUESTION: Does Ubuntu only get fixes from Debian or is there also a knowledge flow in the oposite direction?
<james_w> gscholz: we get a log of fixes from Debian, either directly, or indirectly
<james_w> directly when the Debian maintainer fixes something
<james_w> indirectly when they package a new version of the software, with all the juicy bug fixes
<james_w> however, Ubuntu also fixes some things
<james_w> we don't have nearly as many developers as Debian, so we can't do as much, but we do what we can
<james_w> Ubuntu will typically only fix critical bugs ourselves, for some definition of critical
<james_w> <weboide> QUESTION: Instead of developping for Ubuntu, should we develop for debian and "port" it onto Ubuntu (so that we contribute to both)?
<james_w> that's one way to do things
<james_w> and many people do do it that way
<james_w> however it's not always possible
<james_w> some things aren't applicable to Debian, either due to freezes etc., or other reasons.
<james_w> <hophet> QUESTION: Lets say that Debian die or they stop the work on it. How Ubuntu will moving on?
<james_w> hophet: I've no idea
<james_w> I doubt it will ever happen, and I don't think there is a contingency plan in place for if it does
<james_w> if Debian dies then there will be a lot of debian developers with time on their hands, and they might like to develop for Ubuntu as it would be familiar, but that won't be the full story
<james_w> <bhk_f> james_w: QUESTION: with progeny gone, who's still doing paid support for debian ?
<james_w> I've no idea
<james_w> there are a few small firms
<james_w> but I don't think there is anyone currently trying to do something like Progeny with Debian
<james_w> <billybigrigger> QUESTION: why would it matter if Debian fell off the face of the earth, couldn't Ubuntu just continue from where its going with 8.10? or is Ubuntu specifically dependant on Debian? It would just mean Ubuntu needs more developers to continue keeping up-to-date security fixes no?
<james_w> billybigrigger: more than security fixes
<james_w> we would need developers to help us make the next release
<james_w> and *lots* of them
<james_w> <gscholz> QUESTION: Ubuntu has a nice tool called Launchpad for monitoring bugs. I personally used it several times not only to file bugs but also to provide patches (which were accepted). Are those Launchpad-patches passed over to upstream (Debian or original author)?
<james_w> yeah, they generally end up where they are supposed to, but it depends on a few things to how efficient that is
<james_w> if you send the patch to upstream yourself, then you can be sure it will happen. If it's important and you want to see it in Ubuntu sooner then you can send it to both.
<james_w> if you do that then I would give you a HUGE hug, as that's a great help
<james_w> I wanted to talk about bugs for a bit
<james_w> however, I haven't got much time left
<james_w> so I'll be really quick
<james_w> the Debian bug tracker is at http://bugs.debian.org/
<james_w> when you file a bug in Ubuntu checking the bugs against the Debian package and seeing if you bug is reported there to is a HUGE HUGE HUGE help
<james_w> if you find it then linking it in the Ubuntu bug report helps us track it
<james_w> if you don't find it then saying so can also be helpful
<james_w> jcastro did a fantastic post about the linking and why it helps here: http://stompbox.typepad.com/blog/2008/08/feeding-the-har.html
<james_w> as I said, it helps us to track it, but it also increases the chance that it will be fixed, which is always good right?
<james_w> I wanted to go in to this a bit more, but I don't have time
<james_w> suffice to say that if you file an Ubuntu bug and find a matching upstream one then jump on #ubuntu-bugs and explain the situation and someone will be glad to help?
<james_w> any last questions?
<james_w> If you don't find a Debian bug report then it's possible to file one, but you have to be careful that the bug isn't Ubuntu-specific
<james_w> checking that is hard, and it's easy to make mistakes, but sometimes you know it's not and you can file them.
<james_w> ok, as I seem to have put everyone to sleep I'll wrap up
<james_w> thanks everyone for your attention and your great questions
<hophet> thank u
<cyphermox> thanks james_w!!
<hophet> congrats
<KiNnaZ> thanks indeed
<charlie-tca> %C5Thank you%O
<catonano> thanks !
<rizitis> james_w thanks
<weboide> thanks james_w
<james_w> next up is mathiaz
<Txt_file> congratulations
<zeroathome> thanks for the great insight
<james_w> with some server-love
 * mathiaz waves at james_w
<gladk> thanx
<james_w> hey mathiaz, the stage is all yours
<mathiaz> james_w: thanks!
* stdin changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Current session: An Intrepid journey in Ubuntu Server land with Mathias Gug | Welcome to Openweek, questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat please | Session details here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
<mathiaz> Now that you all you know how we closely work with Debian, I'll give you an overview of the Ubuntu Server Team and how we design the Ubuntu Server product.
<mathiaz> So who are we?
<mathiaz> We are a group of people that have an interest in server related software.
<mathiaz> As an extension we tend also to deal with setups found in corporate environments, such as directory services (ldap, AD) web services, or network authentication.
<mathiaz> Some of us are working for Canonical in the Server team, lead by Rick Clark (dendrobates on IRC).
<mathiaz> Others have services running on Ubuntu and are interested in fixing bugs.
<mathiaz> Regular contributors takes on important tasks and lead them to completion.
<mathiaz> Here is a short list of some of the features that have been developed during the last release cycle:
<mathiaz> Dustin Kirkland (kirland) added the possibility to create an encrypted private directory in the Home folder. The implementation is based on the ecryptfs project.
<mathiaz> Dustin closely worked with the upstream project. As a result he got commit access to the upstream git tree. He is now looking after the user space part of the project.
<mathiaz> For Jaunty he is looking into adding a GUI to manage the ~/Private/ directory as well as making it more i18n-friendly.
<mathiaz> Help in designing, coding and testing this feature is welcome.
<mathiaz> Soren Hansen (soren) rewrote the popular ubuntu-vm-builder application in python. It now comes with a plugin architecture so that new releases, custom fstab templates and multiple hypervisors are supported.
<mathiaz> Dustin Kirkland (kirkland) worked on improving the RAID experience. He added an option at boot time so that sysadmins can choose to automatically boot the system even if the RAID array is degraded.
<mathiaz> This was a long-standing issue in Ubuntu and has finally been fixed.
<mathiaz> Scott Kitterman (ScottK) lead an effort to improve the mail server stack in Ubuntu. Both spamassassin and clamav have been moved to main and can easily been enabled in a postfix environment via amavisd-new.
<mathiaz> For Jaunty he is pursuing better and easier integration. The goal would be to be able to script installation of postfix, amavisd-new, spamasassin, and clamav in an integrated, working configuration with no hand editing of config files needed.
<mathiaz> If you're interested in helping out implementing this feature get in touch with Scott!
<mathiaz> Mathias Gug (mathiaz) worked on adding support for the cn=config backend to the slapd package. Migration from the old slapd.conf file is done automatically when updating to Intrepid.
<mathiaz> Using the new configuration backend will make it easier to load new schemas or define ldap databases by other programs.
<mathiaz> This work will serve as a foundation for better package integration in an LDAP environment.
<mathiaz> Adam Sommer (sommer) is our documentation guru. He reviewed and updated the Server Guide.
<mathiaz> The virtualization section has been revamped to closely follow what has been done in the virtulization stack.
<mathiaz> So you can see that we are a diverse group that have different interests. We're also involved in other teams from the Ubuntu project.
<mathiaz> This is one of the characteristics of the Server Team: we all share a common interest in server technologies, but have different skills.
<mathiaz> Being part of the team often means representing the Server Team in other areas of the Ubuntu project and the Free Sofware ecosystem in general.
<mathiaz> Being a contributor to the server team can be taken under different roles:
<mathiaz> The helpers answers questions on the ubuntu-server mailing list and the #ubuntu-server irc channel.
<mathiaz> Triagers dig into bugs the ubuntu-server LP team is subscribed to.
<mathiaz> Our LP team is a bug contact for a list packages, such as samba, openldap, mysql or apache2.
<mathiaz> The current list of packages can be found in Launchpad (https://bugs.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-server/+packagebugs) and is growing every release.
<mathiaz> A mailing list gathers all the bugs related to the ubuntu-server team: ubuntu-server-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com. To get started in triaging signup here: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-server-bugs
<mathiaz> This is a great way to start with the LP bug tracker and doesn't require any knowledge of programming languages.
<mathiaz> We're working closely with the BugSquad team - triagers participate on the bugsquad mailing list https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugSquad/
<mathiaz> And once in a while with have the honor of having our own HugDay where the whole bug triaging community helps us.
<mathiaz> Once bugs have been triaged, it's time to fix them. This is when the packagers come into the game.
<mathiaz> This role requires an interest in packaging.
<mathiaz> We maintain a list of bugs that are easy to fix: https://bugs.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-server/+mentoring
<mathiaz> Fixes can easily make their way into the ubuntu repositories via the sponsorship process as described in the wiki page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SponsorshipProcess
<mathiaz> Doing work on the packaging front leads to a close a collaboration with the MOTU team and is a great way to gain experience to become a MOTU - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU
<mathiaz> Testing is another way to take part of the Server Team activity. This role doesn't require a lot of deep technical knowledge.
<mathiaz> e work with the Ubuntu QA team - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam.
<mathiaz> We work with the Ubuntu QA team - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam.
<mathiaz> Testers are taking a more and more important role the more we advance in the release cycle:
<mathiaz> We're responsible for ensuring that the ubuntu-server isos are working correctly, which involves performing a dozen of tests for two isos.
<mathiaz> The list of tests can be found in the wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Cases/ServerInstall.
<mathiaz> Results are tracked via the Iso testing tracker located at http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/.
<mathiaz> Server hardware support is another area where testing is welcome.
<mathiaz> We're trying to make sure that ubuntu can be used on the main server hardware, so if you have access to such hardware, popping a cd into the machine, installing a standard ubuntu server and reporting whether it has successfully installed or failed is an easy way to contribute to the server team.
<mathiaz> This work is coordinated in the ServerTesting Team wiki pages: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTestingTeam
<mathiaz> Browsing the ubuntu-server mailing list archive, lurking in the #ubuntu-server irc channel or going through the forum posts shows patterns in user's questions.
<mathiaz> Recurring themes are identified and turned into documentation. A wiki page in the community section of help.ubuntu.com is first created. Once the quality has improved, a new section is added to the server guide.
<mathiaz> All this work is undertaken by the Documentors of the Server Team.
<mathiaz> Collaboration with the Documentation team is done on a daily basis to achieve consistency with other help resources.
<mathiaz> More information about the Documentation team can be found on their website located at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam
<mathiaz> Adam Sommer (sommer) leads the update and review of the Ubuntu Server guide. The source document is maintained in a bzr tree. Helping Adam will introduce you to docbook and distributed versioning with bazaar.
<mathiaz> Getting started involves following 3 steps outlined in the Server Team Knowledge base: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/KnowledgeBase#Ubuntu%20Server%20Guide
<mathiaz> There is also the option to go over server related wiki pages on the community help pages. A good starting point is the Server page that has links to lots of other howtos. https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Servers
<mathiaz> Another hat you can wear in the Server Team is the Developer one.
<mathiaz> They develop new features usually specified during the Ubuntu Developer Summit that takes place at the beginning of each release cycle. Tracked by a blueprint we have around 3 months to get a new feature into Ubuntu.
<mathiaz> As we are at the beginning of a release cycle most members of the Server Team are thinking about new features that could be implemented for Jaunty. These ideas should be added to the Server Team IdeaPool page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/IdeaPool.
<mathiaz> Anyone is welcome to give input on existing ideas and help out refining them.
<mathiaz> As you can see, contributing to the Server Team can be undertaken in more than one way. It usually involves a lot of interaction with other teams from the Ubuntu project.
<mathiaz> It's also a good way to show your contribution to Ubuntu and helps getting Ubuntu membership.
<mathiaz> The GettingInvolved page gives an overview of the roles I've talked about above: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/GettingInvolved
<mathiaz> So how do we work ?
<mathiaz> We track our progress on the Roadmap and meet once a week to discuss outstanding issues.
<mathiaz> Our current work can be tracked on the Roadmap wiki page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Roadmap
<mathiaz> We use the ubuntu-server mailing to coordinate our activities, discuss policy change in the team as well as helping out users.
<mathiaz> You can subscribe to the mailing list here: Join our mailing list at https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-server.
<mathiaz> There is also an Ubuntu Server blog maintained by some members of the Server Tea
<mathiaz> m. Minutes of the meeting as well as other topics related to the Ubuntu Server T
<mathiaz> eam activities are regularly posted there: http://ubuntuserver.wordpress.com/
<mathiaz> How to join the Server Team and start contributing ?
<mathiaz> Joining the ubuntu-server team on LP is as simple as subscribing to the ubuntu-server mailing list and applying for membership on LP https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-server/
<mathiaz> If you already know which role you'd like to contribute as, you can find a list of tasks in the Roadmap. Don't hesitate to ask one of the team members involved in your area of interest.
<mathiaz> Most of the information related to the ServerTeam can be found in the ServerTeam wiki pages: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam.
<mathiaz> If you're overwhelmed by all the available information and you're lost, come talk to me. You can find me in #ubuntu-server amongst other channels. I'll help get out of the mist and we'll find a way you can get involved in the Server Team.
<mathiaz> That was a short overview of the Ubuntu Server Team
<mathiaz> What kind of tasks we do and how we work together.
<mathiaz> I'll answer now questions posted in #ubuntu-classroom-chat.
<mathiaz> < bhk_f> QUESTION: Hows the level of support for RAID under ubuntu server, please compare with Redhat.
<mathiaz> As of intrepid we're at the same level as redhat. The ubuntu server installer supports raid installation and we've integrated support for dmraid and other ataraid devices.
<mathiaz> kirkland is currently working on backporting the boot from degraded raid support for hardy.
<mathiaz> < rgreening> QUESTION: I notice tacacs+ isn't one of the packages available in the repos. who would I contact to work on adding this package? It's an authentication server used in networking (like Cisco routers).
<mathiaz> As it has already been suggested, going through REVU is the best option.
<mathiaz> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/NewPackages
<mathiaz> ^^ this wiki page outlines the process to the get a new package in ubuntu.
<mathiaz> As mentionned above when I presented the packager role Ubuntu Server team members are participating in REVU days hold by the MOTU team.
<mathiaz> If such a package is uploaded to REVU one of us will probably have a look at it.
<mathiaz> < bhk_f> QUESTION: is there any possibility of collaboration on documentation between ubuntu-server & debian documentation ?
<mathiaz> I would hope so although I'm not too familiar with the documentation processes in Debian.
<mathiaz> The Server Guide is released under a Creative Commons ShareAlike 2.5 License (CC-BY-SA)
<mathiaz> If there are any other question fell free to post them in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<mathiaz> I'll answer them while we wait for pedro_ and his session on Bug squashing!
<nealmcb> Thanks, Mathiaz!
 * nxvl waves on mathiaz 
<mathiaz> allright - then - time to wrap up
<mathiaz> thanks all for attending this session
<mathiaz> I'll leave the floor to pedro_  for a bug squashing how-to!
<pedro_> thanks mathiaz you rock!
* stdin changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Current session: Bug Squashing!(How To Triage bugs in Ubuntu) with Pedro Villavicencio | Welcome to Openweek, questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat please | Session details here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
<pedro_> Hello everybody!, my name is Pedro Villavicencio I'm from the lovely Chile and i work for Canonical as a Desktop QA Engineer
<pedro_> Today i'm going to talk to you a bit about the Bugsquad and the Triage process
<pedro_> if you have questions just post them to ubuntu-classroom-chat
<pedro_> ok so let's roll
<pedro_> If you ask what's the Ubuntu Bugsquad is well the Bugsquad is the first point of contacts for the bugs filed in Ubuntu
<pedro_> we keep track of them and try to make sure that major bugs do not go unnoticed by developers
<pedro_> we do this with a process called "Triage"
<pedro_> Working with the Bug Squad it's an excellent way to start helping and learn a lot about Ubuntu and it's infrastructure
<pedro_> You do not need any programming knowledge to join the team
<pedro_> in fact it is a great way to return something to our precious Ubuntu project if you cannot program at all
<pedro_> We have a team on LP https://launchpad.net/~bugsquad it's an open team which means that everybody can join
<pedro_> we also have couple of IRC Channels where bugs are discussed #ubuntu-bugs, and where the new bugs are  announced #ubuntu-bugs-announce
<pedro_> there's also a mailing list https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugsquad that we use for all kind of coordination and discussions
<pedro_> Ok so, Bug triage is an essential part of Ubuntu's development. And daily we get a *huge* number of bugs so we're always looking for help
<pedro_> Triaging consists of a few things:
<pedro_> * Responding to new bugs as they are filed
<pedro_> * Ensuring that new bugs have all the necessary information
<pedro_> We often got bugs with titles and summaries like "This Does not work" or "I don't know" which aren't really helpful to the developers in order to fix them
<pedro_> the summary is one of the things that should be improved too when you face a bug report
<pedro_> because later on it'll be more easy to search trough them if you have a really good one
<pedro_> summaries like the one previous described doesn't help too much and make the work of the developers really hard so we should change that to reflect what's really is going on with the bug for example:
<pedro_> having a summary with "gedit crashed while trying to open an xml file" is way better to having one like "it just crashed!"
<pedro_> bugslayr: yes and i'll explain that further ;-)
<pedro_> Ok in order to gather more information for reports we have the debugging pages https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingProcedures
<pedro_> which contains information on how to get more information for packages in Ubuntu like firefox, openoffice.org, the kernel, apache, etc.
<pedro_> But based in my experience most of new triagers don't know what to ask the very first times they're doing triage work
<pedro_> for example if a bug isn't not described too well, you know one of those doesn't work reports, what you'd ask to the reporter?
<pedro_> well for those kind of things we have a really neat page at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Responses
<pedro_> with a lot of stock responses you can use for your daily triage work
<pedro_> as per the example you can use the "Not described well" stock response: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Responses#Not%20described%20well
<pedro_> Another triage process is:
<pedro_> * Assigning bugs to the proper package
<pedro_> This is also another important part of the triage process if you look at http://tinyurl.com/bugswithoutahome you'll see ~1800 reports without a package assigned to it
<pedro_> almost every report on that list needs to be assigned to one with the exception of reports like "needs-packaging" which are request for new packages
<pedro_> I'd say that assigning bugs to packages is one of the easier tasks in the triage process and if you want to start doing triage you probably want to start triaging them
<pedro_> you can also find more info about this on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/FindRightPackage
<pedro_> <jpugh> QUESTION: I noticed there are many bugs that are VERY old. Do these ever get cleaned up or closed due to lack of response?
<pedro_> Incomplete bugs are closed after 4 weeks if they don't have a response
<pedro_> if you find some that aren't yet , please do close it ;-)
<pedro_> If you found a really old report in a New status you probably want to ask to the reporter if the bug is still reproducible with a newer version of Ubuntu and set the status to Incomplete
<pedro_> QUESTION: Is there an easy way to determine the bugs that do not have packages assigned?
<pedro_> yes, if you look at this bug for example https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/291998
<ubot5`> Launchpad bug 291998 in ubuntu "Kubuntu 8.10 DNS problem" [Undecided,New]
<pedro_> you'll see that it only have a affects "Ubuntu" package selected, that bug doesn't have a package and you might want to triage it with the steps previously described (asking for more info, etc)
<pedro_> if you look at the launchpad list of bugs, you know the typical one, go to -> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ -> click on search bugs -> and later order them by newest first
<pedro_> you'll see a column that said "In", basically the one that says "Ubuntu" is a bug without a package
<pedro_> another process of the triage is:
<pedro_> * Confirming bug reports by trying to reproduce them
<pedro_> * Setting the priority of bugs reports
<pedro_> * Searching for and marking duplicates in the bug tracking system, which is very important since a big quantity of reports we got are duplicates.
<pedro_> * Sending bugs to their upstream authors, when applicable and the awesome Jorge Castro have a session tomorrow about this
<pedro_> * Cross-referencing bugs from other distributions
<pedro_> And * Closing old reports, like the Incompletes one I've explained before
<pedro_> All of these activities help the bug get fixed and subsequently making Ubuntu even better
<pedro_> As soon as you have done enough good triage work, you can apply to the ubuntu-bugcontrol team
<pedro_> which is the one with more rights over the reports
<pedro_> so basically you can see the Private reports, change the Importance of the bugs and set a couple of bug status (Triaged, Won't Fix) we will talk about both in a min
<pedro_> the requirements for join the team are available here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugControl
<pedro_> * Bug Status:
<pedro_> We currently have 9 status, they are
<pedro_> New, Incomplete, Invalid, Confirmed, Triaged, In Progress, Fix Committed, Fix Released and Won't Fix
<pedro_> The first ones are kinda clear, New status means that no one has triaged or confirmed the bug
<pedro_> <homy> QUESTION: when we start to triage a bug and leave a comment, do we automatically get email if new comments area added? Or do we need to subscribe the bug manually?
<pedro_> homy: if you start doing triage you should subscribe to the bug you're triaging, just click on the checkbox that says "E-mail me about changes to this bug report" and you're done
<pedro_> after that, you'll receive an email if someone makes a change to the report, add a new comment, etc
<pedro_> The Incomplete status means that the bug is missing some information for example a debugging backtrace of a crash or steps in order to trigger the bug
<pedro_> A Confirmed is almost self explanatory, someone else than the reporter have the same bug, please  please please pleeease only confirm other people bugs not your own ones :-)
<pedro_> The Triaged state is set by a member of the Ubuntu Bug Control team (hopefully you in a few weeks ;-) ) when they think that the bug has enough information for a developer to start working on fix the issue
<pedro_> If a bug was marked as Triaged and a Developer is working on fixing the bug, that report needs to be marked as "In Progress", because there's a person working on it
<pedro_> If that developer committed the fix to a bzr branch the bug needs to be marked as Fix Committed
<pedro_> And when that fix get released the status of the bug is changed to Fix Released
<pedro_> <fluteflute> QUESTION: bugs are often marked as fix commited against ubuntu packages when actually the fix is commited upstream (going by the policy at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Status). Is this acceptable?
<pedro_> fluteflute: good questions, for some teams in Ubuntu, yes, launchpad currently doesnt have a method to know which bugs are fixed upstream in their bug list
<pedro_> for example if you look at https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gedit
<pedro_> at the desktop team we mark the bugs fixed upstream as fix committed
<pedro_> so we can look at that list and known which bug is fixed upstream and which isn't
<pedro_> as soon as launchpad provides us of a way to see that on the default list of bugs we can probably discuss again the Fix Committed status ;-)
<pedro_> will do a quick review of the Importances of a bug since we don't have enough time
<pedro_> the Importances can only be changed by the bug control team
<pedro_> we have 6 importances, Undecided, Wishlist, Low, Medium, High and Critical
<pedro_> and you can read more about them here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Importance
<pedro_> One of the nicest thing the Ubuntu Community do is the
<pedro_> Hug days!
<pedro_> he very brave Bugsquad team also organize Bug Days also known as Hug Days (triage a bug and win a hug!)
<pedro_> s/he/the
<pedro_> well the idea of a hug day is to work together with the bugsquad and project maintainers on a specific task, weekly we organize two hug days
<pedro_> one the Tuesday and another one the Thursdays, today we're running the New bugs without a package since Intrepid came out bug day. If you want to join us at Hug Days just come to #ubuntu-bugs and join the fun!
<pedro_> If you want to propose a hug day you can also do it just say it at the bugsquad mailing list and take a look to the proposed hug days in case the hug day you're proposing is already on the list, that list is available here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugDay/Planning
<pedro_> and if you also want to help us to organize that day (which i think would be the case) you might want to read the organizing a hug day page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugDay/Organizing
<evan_> pedro_:  question: what is the best to do ? apply a patch on a broken program ( like gnome-session ) or wait untill its fixed?
<pedro_> ok we have 5 minutes left, so 5-a-day!
<pedro_> 5-A-Day means everybody will do 5 (or more) bugs a day every day, you can look for 5-a-day stats at http://daniel.holba.ch/5-a-day-stats/ and for example if you want to work with your LoCo team on a specific task or do a bug jam session you can use 5-a-day too to show other people your team progress
<pedro_> in Chile we use 5-a-day to keep track of our Monthly bug jam sessions if you look to almost the bottom of the page you'll see what i'm talking about
<pedro_> last saturday we had our bug jam for November, the tag used there was bugjam-november-08-chile, so feel free to use this for doing bug activities with your loco team!
<pedro_> if you have questions on how to organize them just mail us or ask us in the #ubuntu-bugs channel
<pedro_> <homy> QUESTION: when exactly is a "confirmed" bug changed to "triaged"? I mean, you can't know if it really is enough information before a developer starts working on it.
<pedro_> homy: for example if you don't have sound with a xxx sound card and someone has the same problem with the same card he probably is going to mark the bug as confirmed
<pedro_> but since the bug doesn't have more info that two persons having the same problem , ie: no logs of your card, etc
<pedro_> that bug needs to be triaged by someone and request all the information as soon as the bug has all the info requested by the bug triager
<pedro_> the bug is changed to triage
<pedro_> we're running out of time
<pedro_> thanks a lot to everyone and happy triaging!
<charlie-tca> Thank you
<popey> Thanks pedro_
<andre__> well done. kudos!
<homy> Thanks pedro_!
 * pedro_ hugs you all
 * homy hugs pedro_
<popey> Up next is tonytiger (Tony Whitmore) who is going to talk about media production on Ubuntu...
<tonytiger> Hi. That's me.
<tonytiger> Does the topic get updated automatically?
<popey> If anyone has questions as usual, post them in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
* stdin changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Current session: Media Production on Ubuntu with Tony Whitmore | Welcome to Openweek, questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat please | Session details here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
<tonytiger> Ah, clever.
* popey changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Current session: Media Production with Tony Whitmore | Welcome to Openweek, questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat please | Session details here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
 * tonytiger clears his throat and starts.
<tonytiger> I'm Tony Whitmore and apparently I'm running this session on media production on Ubuntu.
<tonytiger> This is my first Open Week session, so please be gentle.
<tonytiger> My glamourous assistant is popey who will triage questions for me if I get swamped
<tonytiger> The structure of the session will be like this: Video, Photography, Audio, Q&A
 * popey twirls
<tonytiger> :)
<tonytiger> I'm hoping the Q&A will be quite a large part of this session
<tonytiger> So during the Q&A I'd like your questions about creating, producing and managing media on Ubuntu. I can't promise to answer them all well, but I'll try!
<tonytiger> I should add that all of this is based on my own experience with media production on Ubuntu. I'd be interested to hear if you have other suggestions, particularly from KDE users. I use the GNOME desktop and I think most of the packages I'm going to talk about are GNOME based.
<tonytiger> That said, I can only talk from my own experience, so errors and omissions excepted!
<tonytiger> Why am I qualified to talk about this? Well, I've been using Ubuntu for media production for years. It started out as a very painful experience but is now much better.
<tonytiger> As part of the Ubuntu UK Podcast team, (http://podcast.ubuntu-uk.org) I record, edit, mix and encode the episodes. I have captured, edited and encoded digital video from UDS in Prague (http://www.youtube.com/ubuntudevelopers) as well as talks at LUG Radio Live and local LUG meetings. I use Ubuntu to import, process and manage digital photos from my Canon DSLR.
<tonytiger> The vast majority of the software I'll talk about this evening is packaged in Ubuntu. Installing Ubuntu Studio http://ubuntustudio.org/ is a great way to get all these packages set up and installed.
<tonytiger> So, let's get under way by talking about digital video
<tonytiger> The first part of working with digital video is recording something in the first place! This is beyond the scope of the session, so I'll assume you've got some fantastic footage on a digital video (DV) tape, all reading to be turned into a finished product.
<tonytiger> *ready
<tonytiger> "Capturing" is the process of importing all the DV from the tape onto the PC for editing. This is usually done by playing the tape in the video camera, but you can use a dedicated DV player if you're really serious about it.
<tonytiger> DV takes up a lot of disk space. Having several gigabytes of hard disk space free is a must. I often use external USB hard disks as a cheap way of accessing large amounts of storage space. When I've finished working on one project I can put the disk back on the shelf and get the next one down.
<tonytiger> If you use external hard disks, think carefully about the filesystem. FAT32 is the only option for seemless sharing of data between Windows, Mac and Linux systems, but only supports files up to 4GB.
<tonytiger> That's not a problem unless you are capturing a single shot over 20 minutes in length, but bear in mind that FAT32 isn't a very robust filesystem in general either.
<tonytiger> Capturing DV is well supported on Linux. Digital video cameras have a firewire (IEEE1394) output, and these can be connected to a computer equipped with a firewire port.
<tonytiger> There are two applications I would recommend for capturing your digital video for processing. The first is Kino. It's not a KDE application, despite the "K" at the start. It's a GTK application so fits well with the GNOME desktop.
<tonytiger> The second option is dvgrab, which is a command line utility to do the same thing.
<tonytiger> Both programs have various options to split the capture into separate files automatically, for example when the file reaches 1GB in size. That's about 5 minutes of recording!
<tonytiger> The applications also support capturing a "live" stream from your camera, i.e. without recording, as long as your camera supports sending its output through the firewire port in "record" mode.
<tonytiger> The biggest problem people have with capturing DV from their cameras is permissions on the device node - the special file used to capture the data from the camera.
<tonytiger> This file is /dev/raw1394 and by default isn't configured to give users access to it. This might seem counter-intuitive, but there's a good reason. As the rules file which configures the permissions notes:
<tonytiger> # Please note that raw1394 gives unrestricted, raw access to every single
<tonytiger> # device on the bus and those devices may do anything as root on your system.
<tonytiger> # Yes, I know it also happens to be the only way to rewind your video camera,
<tonytiger> # but it's not going to be group "video", okay?
<tonytiger> KERNEL=="raw1394",                      GROUP="disk"
<tonytiger> That last line means the /dev/raw1394 device node will have group ownership "disk"
<tonytiger> By default, users on Ubuntu aren't in group "disk"
<tonytiger> and they probably shouldn't be, unless you like trashing your hard disks :)
<tonytiger> Anyway, this situation sucks and it's annoying, but it's done with the best of intentions.
<tonytiger> Now, you could resolve this problem in two different ways. But you should really heed the warning above.
<tonytiger> Seriously, it's there for a reason.
<tonytiger> You could do what I do, and amend the permissions on /dev/raw1394 manually. This will persist until you reboot. I do this because I only tend to capture in batches and rarely reboot whilst in the middle of a big capturing session.
<tonytiger> I tend to use the command line, so I issue a command like "sudo chgrp adm /dev/raw1394"
<tonytiger> My user, like the first user on any ubuntu system, is in the "adm" group
<tonytiger> You could alter the rules file to change the group ownership to a group of which you are a member, say "video" which will persist across reboots. I'll leave that as an exercise for the, erm, reader. :)
<tonytiger> Either way, once you've done that you can capture your DV. Kino will also control the camera (play, stop, rewind etc.) from within the application.
<tonytiger> This isn't really a tutorial on using each of these applications, so I'll summarise by saying that I find Kino great for simple editing and effects. You can trim, split and join clips as well as applying titles and other effects.
<tonytiger> I produced the trailer for LUG Radio Live USA 2008 using Kino. All the video effects were generated in Kino. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MD1zatyNSok
<tonytiger> Kino can also export in a number of different formats, which is an easy way to produce a file that is ready for sharing.
<tonytiger> Bear in mind that exporting from DV will take a long time, often multiples of the duration of the edited piece, as converting DV to other formats is very processor intensive.
<tonytiger> Kino also supports jog/shuttle wheels but as with the Firewire device node, there are permissions problems on a default Ubuntu system.
<tonytiger> If your needs are more complex than Kino can manage, then you are entering the joyous world of video editing on Linux. There are a lot of video editing programs out there but none of them brilliant. Some of the options are:
<tonytiger> * Kdenlive. KDE's video editor and the one with the most potential to match iMovie. Simple track-based editing and a fair few features. Main issue is stability but it's a relatively young project.
<tonytiger> * Pitivi. Written in Python / GTK and based on the gstreamer framework, this project has been knocking around for years. It's made slow progress, but may now speed up as a developer has been hired to work on it full time. Also quite like iMovie in remit.
<tonytiger> * Diva. After some promising promotional videos, this project died out.
<tonytiger> * OpenMovie Editor. I had huge stability issues with this.
<tonytiger> * Main Actor. Proprietary software, now withdrawn.
<tonytiger> * Cinelerra. A hugely complex package, aiming to match professional software like Final Cut. I've had huge stability problems with it, and it hasn't been packaged in Ubuntu due to some licencing issues. However the project is addressing these issues and reinvigorating itself.
<tonytiger> * LiVES. Aimed for live video-jockeying, and real-time effects processing, but can be used for editing too.
<tonytiger> * Blender. Apparently this includes a fairly full-featured non-linear video editing toolset. Never tried it myself mind, as Blender scares me.
<tonytiger> * Avidemux. A useful program for processing video files, resizing, cropping and changing various video properties. Only very simple editing features, but a useful part of the toolbox.
<tonytiger> You might tell from the above that I'm not in love with any one video editor on Linux. Sadly, this is true.
<tonytiger> Most of the time Kino does what I need, but when I try to do anything more complex, I have struggled a bit. kdenlive is really promising, if they can address some of the stability issues. I would love to see pitivi develop quickly. Cinelerra should be where it's at, but it's a huge learning curve, and is not the prettiest application.
<tonytiger> My motto with video stuff on Linux is "I'll believe it when I've used it". :) However I believe in eating one's own dog food, so persist in trying!
<tonytiger> So hopefully you've captured and edited your project.
<tonytiger> You can now export it to a single file.
<tonytiger> The final step being to prepare it for distribution.
<tonytiger> If you've exported your file in a format you're happy with, then go for it. E-mail, upload, whatever.
<tonytiger> If you want your file to "just play" on Windows and Linux you will probably need to make at least two versions.
<tonytiger> What I tend to do in this case is produce one high quality output file from my video editor, typically an MPEG2 file.
<tonytiger> I then encode it to a WMV file for Windows users and an OGG Theora / Vorbis file for Linux users.
<tonytiger> I do this using "ffmpeg" and "ffmpeg2theora". These commands are packaged on Ubuntu and have various options which control the quality of the output file.
<tonytiger> You can find the settings I use documented at http://tonywhitmore.co.uk/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?UsefulNotes/LugTalkVideos
<tonytiger> OK, I think we've had some questions on video stuff, so I'll break for them now.
<popey> 20:05:47 #ubuntu-classroom-chat: < jpugh> QUESTION: Brief description of your hardware setup for each of the topics?
<tonytiger> Heh
<tonytiger> OK
<tonytiger> I have a PC and a laptop. The laptop has 2GB RAM, 1.8GHz dual core CPU.
<tonytiger> 80GB disk, I think.
<tonytiger> The desktop has about the same spec, to be honest.
<tonytiger> Just much more disk.
<tonytiger> CPU is the real bottle neck when it comes to working with video.
<jpugh> Firewire is xfer mech of choice?
<tonytiger> And even then the bottleneck is not in playing or capturing the video, it's in applying effects and exporting.
<tonytiger> jpugh: In that it's what every decent DV camera I've seen comes with, yes. :) Although I have seen some that do USB too.
<tonytiger> Firewire is pretty prevalent on main stream motherboards these days, but less so in laptops.
<tonytiger> So in terms of hardware, it's not that new. A couple of years old in both cases, I think,.
<tonytiger> Disk space is the biggest resource, hence me using lots of USB HDDs :)
<tonytiger> OK, was there another question about video?
<popey>  < DoruHush> ï»¿QUESTION: What application can be used to edit ogg video files? thanks
<tonytiger> Hmm, that's a good question.
<tonytiger> Pitivi can.
<tonytiger> Other programs like avidemux (and kino, I think) can export to OGG Theora files, but can't open them.
<tonytiger> If pitivi doesn't meet your needs yet, you will probably have to convert your OGG file to a different format for editing.
<tonytiger> Possibly to DV or to MPEG2 would be your best bets
<tonytiger> I would use ffmpeg to do this.
<popey> There are two more questions, want them now, or want to move on?
<tonytiger> Are they about video?
<popey> yes, kinda
<tonytiger> ok
<tonytiger> Go for it :)
<popey> <@popey> QUESTION: Does using the realtime kernel (as used in ubuntu studio make any real difference?
<tonytiger> Heh
<tonytiger> Promoting your own questions. :)
<tonytiger> I was going to touch on this in the audio segment, because it's not really any use for video processing, as far as I know.
<popey> it was next in the queue
<tonytiger> :)
<popey> ok, one more..
 * tonytiger nods
<popey>  < gourgi> QUESTION:i have some screencasts using recordmydesktop and i want to add annotations._comments_comment-clouds  (not sure how they called :)) , what software does what i want
<popey> :D
<tonytiger> heh
<tonytiger> I might have to delegate to Mr. Screencasts, popey.
<popey> There is no product I know of, but I'd love to talk to someone about writing one.
<tonytiger> Heh, that's a "no" then. :)
<tonytiger> I might add that you could use cinelerra or kino or kdenlive to add captions manually to your video.
<tonytiger> It might get a bit tiring and would be a pain in the backside if you spotted a typo after you'd done it all. :)
<tonytiger> OK, let's press on to photography.
<tonytiger> In some ways this is the simplest of the three areas I'm talking about tonight. Most digital cameras appear as USB mass storage when connected to a computer running Ubuntu. This means that the camera's memory card will be automatically mounted and the application for managing photographs will be started.
<tonytiger> Some cameras, notably older Canon ones, don't appear as a mass storage device because they use a different protocol. You can use a USB card reader or a program like gtkam to copy the files off these cameras.
<tonytiger> Ubuntu comes with F-spot as the default photo management application. It's what I use. I didn't really see the need for photo management software until I'd had my digital camera for a couple of years. Before long I'd built up gigabytes of photographs and was spending ages manually sorting them into folders.
<tonytiger> One of my favourite things about F-spot is that it sorts imported photographs into a nice, neat, date-based directory structure. A perfect way of finding your photos, even if you don't want to fire up F-spot at that time.
<tonytiger> F-spot allows you to tag photos. This is a pain the backside to do initially, especially if you have hundreds or thousands of photos in your initial import.
<tonytiger> However, once you've processed your backlog (or perhaps you just elect not to do so) it's easy to keep on top of, just tagging new photos as you import them.
<tonytiger> So, why bother? Tagging is a good way to locate photos. Really. You can also search for photos based on multiple criteria, for example you could search for photos tagged "Wales" and "Buster" but not "Frank".
<tonytiger> F-spot also allows you to browse and view your photo collection, as well as exporting it to a number of different online galleries. (The export functionality for some of these is provided by plugins, and these aren't always compatible with the latest release of F-spot though, so watch out.)
<tonytiger> You can also retouch photos in F-spot and each new release seems to add more features in this area. You can crop, re-colour and touch up photos all from within F-Spot.
<tonytiger> But F-spot can also open photos in other graphics packages for editing. It will create a separate revision of the photo each time it is opened, allowing you to keep the original and any other versions you produce and switch between them easily.
<tonytiger> So, what external application are you likely to want to open photos in? The obvious candidate is the Gnu Image Manipulation Program, or GIMP for short.
<tonytiger> GIMP is the closest that the Free Software world has to Photoshop. That isn't to say that a Photoshop user can just sit down and use the GIMP, the two have different interfaces.
<tonytiger> The KDE world has Krita http://www.koffice.org/krita/ which seems to be quite popular.
<tonytiger> The GIMP provides a similar range of effects, features and filters to Photoshop. It supports layers, masks, blending, cloning, filters and batch scripting.
<tonytiger> It also supports graphics tablets, which are a more intuitive interface for artistic work. I have a Wacom tablet and it works really well with that, allowing multiple "tools", like eraser and brush and pressure sensitivity.
<tonytiger> One of the common complaints about GIMP is that it only uses 8-bit of data per "channel" internally. This is less than Photoshop, so often leads to accusations that the GIMP isn't a "professional" level tool. Fortunately the new 2.6 release has revised internals which, whilst not "on" by default, address these concerns.
<tonytiger> Like any complex application there's a bit of a learning curve whilst you get used to the tools and techniques which the GIMP provides.
<tonytiger> But it is rewarding to be able to process and improve your photographs, especially without paying a fortune for expensive software to do so!
<tonytiger> There is a book from Rocky Nook which is well worth looking at if you're interested in using the GIMP for photographic work.
<tonytiger> http://www.amazon.co.uk/GIMP-Photographers-Editing-Source-Software/dp/1933952032/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1225817533&sr=1-2
<tonytiger> It's also worth mentioning RAW photos. Most digital SLR cameras allow you to take photos in RAW mode. RAW photos are unprocessed and uncompressed data from the sensor in the camera. They can produce better quality results than shooting in standard JPEG mode, but require processing to do so.
<tonytiger> Unlike the JPEG format, different manufacturers have different RAW formats. Fortunately you can still work with and process RAW photos on Linux.
<tonytiger> Applications like dcraw http://www.cybercom.net/~dcoffin/dcraw/ ufraw http://ufraw.sourceforge.net/ and rawstudio http://rawstudio.org/ allow manipulation of RAW images.
<tonytiger> F-spot, as already discussed, can import RAW photos directly and by default will open a RAW photo for editing in UFRaw before importing to the GIMP.
<tonytiger> If you are really geeky about these things, you can get into colour management and monitor calibration to ensure better colour matching between what you see on screen and what you get when printed. The software for measuring your monitor and producing a profile is still quite new but seems to work.
<tonytiger> Many people will be happy viewing pictures on a monitor or digital photo frame, but if you want to produce high quality photo prints under Linux, please make sure you read reviews of printers before you purchase. CUPS can provide more and more advanced features, but if you are really counting on high print quality it pays to make sure your printer will produce the results you need under Linux.
<tonytiger> OK, are there any questions about digital photography?
<popey> you've answered them :)
<tonytiger> excellent, what a well though through session :)
<tonytiger> I'll give people a minute to think of anything else photography related before moving on to audio stuff
<popey> 20:33:12 < jerichokb> QUESTION: how well do the apps you've mentioned cope with a dual-monitor set-up?
<tonytiger> Ooh, good question. :)
<tonytiger> I use a dual monitor set up on my desktop.
<tonytiger> I probably should have mentioned that in my hardware spec. :)
<tonytiger> And yes, I have a dual-head nVidia card.
<tonytiger> And yes, I use the evil binary driver.
<tonytiger> I'd love not to.
<tonytiger> F-spot is a single window application, so you can either stretch it across two heads, or just keep it on one.
<tonytiger> GIMP scales to two heads somewhat better though, as is has multiple windows in addition to the main image window
<tonytiger> So you could have the tools on one head, a smaller image perhaps on the same head, and a large image on the second head.
<tonytiger> Or, if you're launching GIMP from F-spot, F-spot on one head, GIMP toolbars etc. on the same head and the image on the second head.
<tonytiger> It's worth noting that the graphics tablet doesn't fit quite so well with dual head.
<tonytiger> Mine at least is in the correct aspect ratio for a 4:3 monitor.
<tonytiger> This means that the cursor moves twice as far on screen for a given move of the stylus left to right than it does up-down.
<tonytiger> Which is a bit of a pain.
<tonytiger> However, I adapted.
<tonytiger> Not sure that any other OS would cope any better mind, I think it's a limitation of the tablets.
<tonytiger> OK, if that's all for photography for now, I'll move onto audio.
<tonytiger> Linux is pretty well catered for in terms of digital audio. USB sound cards work well and are a great way of improving the performance of audio applications. You might not be able to hear a difference straight away, but on-board sound cards are not really suitable for anything more than the random beeps and bleeps that your system makes.
<tonytiger> Onboard sound cards respond slower to requests from applications to play noises, for a start. :)
<tonytiger> I have personally used devices which appear to the operating system as USB sounds cards, including a Centrance Mic Port Pro http://www.frontendaudio.com/Centrance_MicPort_Pro_p/9999-01463.htm and a USB interface with my mixer.
<tonytiger> If you want use more than a handful of channels then you'll need to look at Firewire interfaces. Some mixers have Firewire interfaces built in, or you can use an external unit like the Presonus FP10 http://www.studiospares.com/Audio-Interfaces/Presonus-FP10/invt/328110
<brobostigon> so a seperare soundcard is always the most ideal?
<tonytiger> These present each channel as a separate input to your audio application, so you can control the volume level, apply different filters and processes to each.
<tonytiger> These /should/ Just Work with Linux as it's a standardised interface, but it's worth using your favourite search engine to find out if other people have had positive experiences with that hardware under Linux.
<popey> brobostigon: questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat please
<brobostigon> sorry
<tonytiger> brobostigon: In terms of performance, yes. There's a definite delay in playing in, for example, audacity, when using the onboard sound card than with an external one.
<brobostigon> thank you tonytiger, sorry for interrupting
<tonytiger> It doesn't have to be external, there are great PCI sound cards for internal use.
<tonytiger> No problem, popey is my bouncher.
<tonytiger> *bouncer
<tonytiger> The most basic GUI audio application available on Ubuntu is Sound Recorder, like the Sound Recorder application on Windows.
<tonytiger> You can record, stop, play and save. That's about it! Useful for very basic operations, you'll quickly outgrow it if you have any more creative ideas.
<tonytiger> There are command line applications that will do the same too, asound being one. This might be useful if you wanted a script to record something.
<tonytiger> Perhaps triggered from a cronjob? Erm, the mind boggles.
<tonytiger> Audacity is a fantastic application to use for recording and editing audio. The best thing about it is that you can get started with it really quickly and keep uncovering new features for ages.
<tonytiger> Audacity is great for recording a stereo or mono tracks, editing bits out and applying some effects.
<tonytiger> One of the nice things about Audacity is that it supports LADSPA plugins. There are a lot of plugins packaged for Ubuntu which can be used on a number of different packages, including Audacity.
<tonytiger> Audacity can also be used for multi-track editing and mixing. You can build up quite complex mixes with lots of tracks with Audacity.
<tonytiger> The main problem with Audacity is that applying effects and edits is a destructive process. For example you can't change the settings of a particular filter without using the "undo" function to reverse the filter, alter the settings and re-apply it.
<tonytiger> This is OK if you are only applying a single filter but with complex sequences of filters it becomes impractical quite quickly.
<tonytiger> That said, I use Audacity for editing the podcast as it is quick and has handy keyboard shortcuts which allow for rapid use - handy when you've got hours of waffle to go through!
<tonytiger> The next step up is Ardour. This is the Linux equivalent of Logic ProTools and is a sophisticated "digital audio workstation". http://ardour.org/
<tonytiger> It can manage dozens of tracks and apply effects non-destructively. It's ardour that you want to use if you're thinking about multi-channel USB or firewire interfaces. It supports LADSPA plugins, but applies them non-destructively and allows you to alter and automate changes to the plugin settings through the course of your project.
<tonytiger> It even supports processing audio for video tracks, allowing you to make changes to the audio track and preview the audio along with the video.
<Daviey> *cough*
<tonytiger> Ardour uses the JACK audio engine, which is basically a process responsible for making other applications talk to each other. http://jackaudio.org
<tonytiger> Ladies and gentlemen, the cause of most of the waffle, Daviey. :)
<tonytiger> The clever thing about JACK is that it can connect different audio applications together, so you can use different applications to work on different parts of your project.
<tonytiger> There are lots of applications which support JACK. Not all of them are as dependent on JACK to run as Ardour though. http://jackaudio.org/applications
<tonytiger> If you're making a multi-track music piece, recording one instrument whilst listening to the ones you've already recording, you'll probably want to use a low latency kernel. This is packaged in Ubuntu as "linux-rt".
<tonytiger> By installing this kernel then rebooting and selecting it on boot, you can configure JACK to run in "real time" or low latency mode. This means there is a greatly reduced delay between playing a sound and hearing it coming back out of the sound card again.
<tonytiger> This is turn means you can keep in time with the pre-recorded music tracks.
<tonytiger> (In my notes I had substituted "tracks" with "interviews". How bizarre.)
<tonytiger> If you're not doing multi-tracked music projects then I wouldn't worry about setting up the low latency kernel unless you're super keen.
<tonytiger> There is a great tutorial on episode 92 of Linux Reality which will get you up and running with ardour in 40 minutes or so. http://www.linuxreality.com/podcast/episode-92-ardour/
<tonytiger> I also made some screencasts on how I use Ardour to mix the Ubuntu UK podcast which you can get from http://screencasts.ubuntu.com/
<tonytiger> (Additional ones about editing in Audacity will appear at some point, if they're not already up.)
<popey> (they are)
<tonytiger> Cool, thanks popey
<tonytiger> There are other options too, like Traverso http://traverso-daw.org/ and ReZound http://rezound.sourceforge.net/
<tonytiger> Traverso is quite interesting as it uses a "cut list" approach, only applying cuts when the project is exported.
<tonytiger> I must confess that I'm not a creative musical type when it comes to audio, but there are sequencers and notation packages like Rosegarden http://www.rosegardenmusic.com/ and Swami http://swami.resonance.org/trac and drum generators like Hydrogen http://www.hydrogen-music.org/
<tonytiger> The list of JACK applications is quite impressive, it has mastering software and DJ / radio station stuff too.
<tonytiger> OK, let's go with any audio questions
<popey> 20:42:54 < DoruHush> ï»¿QUESTION: What audio server it is (or will be) used and how the cofig. process works? thanks
<popey> 20:46:07 <@popey> DoruHush: so you want to know what configuration changes tony makes to his setup with respect to pulse?
<popey> 20:47:00 < DoruHush> yes, or what options should be set to configure the sound cards, (5.1 etc.)
<tonytiger> JACK is its own audio server.
<tonytiger> Effectively.
<tonytiger> I've never had to change pulse to use JACK.
<tonytiger> I think pulse only starts one instance on login, so if I connect by USB sound device, there's no pulse instance trying to address it.
<tonytiger> That makes it a null-issue.
<tonytiger> But I've never had to fiddle with pulse to use JACK when using an internal sound card either, I don't think.
<tonytiger> I terms of 5.1 sound, I've never created 5.1 channel sound!
<tonytiger> In terms of playing back 5.1 channel sound from a DVD or similar, Xine has an option for it.
<tonytiger> Sorry, I can't be of more help in that respect. :)
<tonytiger> Any more questions?
<popey> 20:49:12 < yusuf_> Question: what is the best way to do live audio streaming?
<DoruHush> thanks
<tonytiger> yusuf_: I'd suggest looking at Icecast
<tonytiger> http://www.icecast.org/
<tonytiger> There are other options which may be more appropriate if you're on limited bandwidth or have other restrictions
<popey> 20:54:17 < yusuf_> Question: most of the listners will be windows listners
<tonytiger> Icecast is based on the MP3 format, so this will be fine for Windows listeners.
<tonytiger> I think it is also possible to use gstreamer to create a streaming server of some kind.
<tonytiger> This would support OGG streams as well as the less-Free formats.
<tonytiger> Any more questions?
<popey> nope
<tonytiger> Any more questions on anything discussed here tonight?
<tonytiger> I'll wrap up then.
<tonytiger> Thanks for having me here this evening, it's been fun!
<tonytiger> I hope it's been a useful session.
<popey> Thanks tonytiger !
<tonytiger> Listen to the Ubuntu Podcast from the UK LoCo Tean
<tonytiger> *Team
<tonytiger> http://podcast.ubuntu-uk.org/
<tonytiger> :)
<tonytiger> Thanks to my glamourous assistant popey
 * popey twirls again
<tonytiger> You don't want to see his sequinned outfit, trust me.
<Daviey> Question: Does the Ubuntu UK Podcast rock?
<tonytiger> Daviey: It does.
<popey> Why yes, yes it does.
<tonytiger> :)
* popey changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Current session: Private Directories with Dustin Kirkland | Welcome to Openweek, questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat please | Session details here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
<kirkland> Howdy all!
<cyphermox> howdy!
 * popey encrypts his greeting before storing it in ~/Private
<kirkland> I'm hear to talk about a fancy new feature in Ubuntu Intrepid Ibex ... Encrypted Private Directories
<kirkland> popey: are you doing introductions?
<popey> no, you go right ahead
<kirkland> righto....
<kirkland> so the executive summary of usage looks like this....
<kirkland> On an Intrepid system....
<kirkland> $ sudo apt-get update
<kirkland> $ sudo apt-get install ecryptfs-utils
<kirkland> $ ecryptfs-setup-private
<kirkland> You will be prompted for your *login* password (the one that you use to login to your system)
<kirkland> And then, you will be prompted for a *mount* passphrase
<kirkland> this should be different from your login passphrase
<kirkland> optionally, you can let ecryptfs-setup-private generate this from /dev/urandom
<kirkland> that will ensure a long, difficult to guess (but equally difficult to remember) mount passphrase
<kirkland> in either case, it's absolutely ***essential*** that you print that out, or write it down and store it somewhere safe
<kirkland> like a safety deposit box, or something ;-)
<kirkland> if you loose that passphrase, you will not be able to access your encrypted data if you have to recover it manually later
<kirkland> okay........
<kirkland> so once you've done that, you should be able to logout of your system, and log back in
<kirkland> that's via ssh, console, or even graphical desktop clients, in Gnome, KDE, XFCE
<kirkland> here's where the magic happens....
<kirkland> when you installed ecryptfs-utils, it inserted a new module into the PAM stack
<kirkland> pam_ecryptfs
<kirkland> you can see it if you 'grep pam_ecryptfs /etc/pam.d/*'
<kirkland> whenever you give your login password, pam_ecryptfs will take that password, and use it to decrypt a file, ~/.ecryptfs/wrapped-passphrase, which contains that mount passphrase
<kirkland> once that mount passphrase is obtained, pam_ecryptfs will call /sbin/mount.ecryptfs_private
<kirkland>  /sbin/mount.ecryptfs_private is a special utility, that is installed with "setuid" capabilities
<kirkland> this allows it to elevate your privileges from a normal user, to the root user for one particular operation....
<kirkland> doing a "mount"
<kirkland> so mount.ecryptfs_private will do a few things ...
<kirkland> it will first check that the mount passphrase that was decrypted with your login passphrase *is* the correct mount passphrase
<kirkland> it does this by looking at the "signature" of the passphrase, and compares that with another file, ~/.ecryptfs/Private.sig
<kirkland> if these match, it will mount your ~/.Private directory on top of ~/Private using a special filesystem, called "ecryptfs"
<kirkland> ecryptfs stands for "Enterprise Cryptographic Filesystem", and was developed by some of my former colleagues at IBM
<kirkland> namely, Michael Halcrow, and Tyler Hicks
<kirkland> i chose ecryptfs for a couple of reasons
<kirkland> however, I will note that the same principles I used to deliver Encrypted Private Directories could be used with anyone of a number of other cryptographic filesystems
<kirkland> for one thing, ecryptfs is in the Linux Kernel, and has been there since the 2.6.19 release (they're currently on 2.6.28)
<kirkland> i believe that this gives it heavy exposure, in a number of different fields of computing and numerous distributions
<kirkland> the code in there is heavily vetted, and while not perfect, there are plenty of experts working on it
<kirkland> it's also not "going away" any time soon
<kirkland> this is important to me, as I store some very important data in my ecryptfs mounts
<kirkland> there are also some (theoretic) performance benefits of a filesystem implemented in the kernel, rather than userspace
<kirkland> i put the "theoretic" in parentheses as I haven't tested this myself
<kirkland> I'll leave that to someone else ;-)
<kirkland> but it does simplify matters, and reduce context switches required
<kirkland> the nice thing is that there are now cryptographic algorithms built into the kernel itself
<kirkland> thus, ecryptfs really didn't implement any encryption
<kirkland> that's a "good thing" from your point of view, i think
<kirkland> cryptographic algorithms must be reviewed very, very thoroughly, and the ones already in the kernel have been
<kirkland> in any case, there other other crypto filesystem methods out there
<kirkland> encfs, is one
<kirkland> truecrypt, is another
<kirkland> dmcrypt is still another
<kirkland> and so on
<kirkland> another advantage of ecryptfs is that each file is individually encrypted in the underlying filesystem
<kirkland> where as with block-level encryption, the entire device is encrypted
<kirkland> there are cases where perhaps this makes sense
<kirkland> swap, for instance
<kirkland> or, if you want to encrypt your entire hard drive (LVM encryption)
<kirkland> however, there are a couple of disadvantages ....
<kirkland> it's not really possible to incrementally backup a block-level encrypted device
<kirkland> in my case, though, I can simply rsync -aP .Private to my remote storage
<kirkland> and be assured that even the root user on that remote system (perhaps a co-lo, or a commercial backup site) won't be able to access my most sensitive data
<kirkland> i will warn, however, that the ecryptfs implementation in the 2.6.27 kernel which is used in Intrepid does not yet encrypt filenames
<kirkland> that's a known issue, we have a bug tracking it in Launchpad
<kirkland> but mhalcrow is working on it, and has code being integrated in the kernel as we speak
<kirkland> i think it's realistic to expect encrypted filenames in Jaunty
<kirkland> this bothers some people, but it doesn't really bother me that much ....
<kirkland> i posted a sample, encrypted id_rsa file, named as such, identified as an ssh private key to that bug
<kirkland> if someone cracks that encryption, and can do it regularly, we have a problem on our hands ;-)
<kirkland> but i trust the Linux kernel's built in encryption
<kirkland> okay, question from the classroom....
<kirkland> <hhlp> <QUESTION> what happen with ecryptfs when you have automatic login user...
<kirkland> that's a great one, and a bug that I actually spent all day yesterday fixing
<kirkland> it should be in intrepid-proposed later today, and uploaded to intrepid soon after
<kirkland> if you automatically login, you don't enter your password
<kirkland> and so your Private directory won't automatically be mounted
<kirkland> obviously, that's by design
<kirkland> if all someone has to do is turn on your computer, then encrypted data isn't worth much
<kirkland> so, i have a fix in the works ....
<kirkland> basically, when you boot a system that automatically logs in
<kirkland> you would open your "Private" folder using Nautilus or Konqueror, etc.
<kirkland> and you won't see your data (yet), but you will see a link to an application that says
<kirkland> "Access Your Private Data"
<kirkland> this will run a program, /usr/bin/ecryptfs-mount-private
<kirkland> which will prompt you for your login password, and mount your Private folder
<kirkland> question from the audience:
<kirkland> <stdin> QUESTION: what sort of performance hit is there, anything noticeable?
<kirkland> here are the contents of my Private directory:
<kirkland> $ ls -alF Private/
<kirkland> total 40
<kirkland> drwx------ 10 kirkland kirkland 4096 2008-11-03 09:02 ./
<kirkland> drwx------ 98 kirkland kirkland 4096 2008-11-04 14:28 ../
<kirkland> drwx------  4 kirkland kirkland 4096 2008-10-03 10:23 Documents/
<kirkland> drwxr-xr-x  9 kirkland kirkland 4096 2008-11-04 11:28 .evolution/
<kirkland> drwx------  2 kirkland kirkland 4096 2008-11-04 14:29 .gnupg/
<kirkland> drwx------  4 kirkland kirkland 4096 2008-02-14 06:59 .mozilla/
<kirkland> drwx------  6 kirkland kirkland 4096 2008-11-04 15:25 .purple/
<kirkland> drwx------  2 kirkland kirkland 4096 2008-10-28 13:02 .ssh/
<kirkland> drwx------  4 kirkland kirkland 4096 2008-08-20 08:46 .Trash-1000/
<kirkland> drwx------ 10 kirkland kirkland 4096 2008-11-02 20:08 .xchat2/
<kirkland> I don't have any performance issues with any of those programs using encrypted Private
<kirkland> that includes:
<kirkland> Evolution
<kirkland> GnuPG
<kirkland> Firefox
<kirkland> Pidgin
<kirkland> SSH
<kirkland> XChat2
<kirkland> I don't do my development in there, though
<kirkland> I would imagine something like compiling software would probably take a 10% performance hit, if i had to guess
<kirkland> but, fortunately, i work on open source software, which isn't really secret :-)
<kirkland> that brings up a very good point ....
<kirkland> another motivation for using an Encrypted Private Directory is a performance one ...
<kirkland> you can choose to install your entire system to an encrypted LVM
<kirkland> and then, all of your data on your entire hard drive is encrypted
<kirkland> but there almost certainly is a performance penalty for doing this
<kirkland> to run anything in /usr/bin, or access libraries in /lib, or configuratoin files in /etc ...
<kirkland> all of that takes decrypt operations
<kirkland> and writing data does too
<kirkland> with an Encrypted Private Directory, you consciously choose what data you want to protect
<kirkland> and what you are willing to pay the encryption performance penalty
<kirkland> another advantage is that LVM encryption requires a password just to boot the system
<kirkland> this is a no-no for servers
<kirkland> where the system might be in a data center 2000 miles away
<kirkland> and it's expected to boot "unattended"
<kirkland> with Encrypted Private, you enter the password when you login, or when you access that directory
<kirkland> <gourgi> QUESTION: are there plans to extend encryption options to entire /home ? or this has some disadvantages, eg performance?
<kirkland> I intend on proposing this again at the Ubuntu Developer Summit in December of 2008 for Jaunty
<kirkland> this was, in fact my original proposal
<kirkland> but we scaled it back to just ~/Private for Intrepid
<kirkland> which is just as well ...  there were plenty of issues to solve for just that!
<kirkland> i would like to eventually allow for each user to choose to encrypt their entire /home/USERNAME directory, with a key that's unique to them
<kirkland> it would, of course, be an opt-in program ;-)
<kirkland> this isn't desired by everyone, and i respect that
<kirkland> i think it would remove some of the complexity, though
<kirkland> i showed you the contents of my Private directory
<kirkland> I have established symbolic links from those directories' natural locations to their storage in Private
<kirkland> ln -s /home/kirkland/Private/.ssh /home/kirkland/.ssh
<kirkland> this is slightly more complex than I'd like it to be
<kirkland> there are a number problems we're going to have to solve to do this
<kirkland> and it will be up to the powers that be at UDS to determine if this is something we are interested in solving in Ubuntu
<kirkland> <nizarus> QUESTION: actually mounting and unmounting private directory is done in command line, is there any plan to got a nautilus integration
<kirkland> yes, see my response earlier to the question about auto-mounting ....
<kirkland> i created a desktop shortcut just yesterday
<kirkland> that hasn't made it quite into Intrepid yet, but it's coming
<kirkland> i also just created a similar desktop link yesterday for the ecryptfs-setup-private program
<kirkland> i'm hoping we can get both of those updates out for Intrepid in the coming days
<kirkland> i have high hopes for some better graphical utilities in time for Jaunty
<kirkland> <cyphermox> QUESTION: How about encrypting with a physical key, instead of a passphrase? I'm thinking something like a USB pen drive that allows you access to the data in ~/Private, for example.
<kirkland> great question ....
<kirkland> ecryptfs, itself has a *very* flexible key management framework
<kirkland> it currently supports:
<kirkland>  1) pkcs11-helper
<kirkland>  2) openssl
<kirkland>  3) passphrase
<kirkland>  4) tspi
<kirkland> the only one of which we're using for Encrypted Private is the passphrase
<kirkland> i have another open bug asking about support for Thinkpad fingerprint readers
<kirkland> that's a very reasonable request, and if I can ever put my hands on one for a few hours, I think I could probably hack it up :-)
<kirkland> the USB pen drive one is actually easier than that
<kirkland> cyphermox: i'd ask you to please file a bug against ecryptfs-utils
<kirkland> though you could hack around it very easily ....
<kirkland> cyphermox: move your ~/.ecryptfs directory to that USB key
<kirkland> cyphermox: and setup a symlink
<kirkland> cyphermox: i think that's about it ;-)
<kirkland> cyphermox: or, just move ~/.ecryptfs/wrapped-passphrase
<kirkland> i actually might play with that one a bit myself ;-)  great idea!
<kirkland> <tonytiger> QUESTION: Can OpenGPG cards be used as keys too? Are they part of the PKCS11 support?
<kirkland> tonytiger: good question ... i'm not familiar with OpenGPG cards.  i'll need to do some research on that one
<kirkland> for what it's worth ...
<kirkland> tspi is support for the "Trusted Computing" chips found in most modern machines
<kirkland> you can debate among yourselves all the horrible things that Trusted Computing can do with your systems
<kirkland> :-)
<kirkland> but support is there for storing your keys in the tspi itself
<kirkland> i've not used it though
<kirkland> but the pkcs11 support should support any of the public-key crypto tokens
<kirkland> i doubt that i would personally push any of those other mechanisms into Ubuntu any time soon
<kirkland> (tspi, pkcs11, openssl)
<kirkland> but i'm certainly not opposed to patches!  :-)
<kirkland> fingerprint readers, and .ecryptfs on a usb stick are some low hanging fruit that I'll try to tackle in Jaunty
<kirkland> <lvzimmer> QUESTION: If you encript all you home directory (as the original idea) you still need password (login) and mount ï»¿passphrase?
<kirkland> yes.  auto-login will almost certainly *not* work
<kirkland> with respect to the 2 passphrase (login, and mount) ...
<kirkland> i'll remind you that in normal Encrypted Private operation, *all* you really need is your login passphrase
<kirkland> your mount passphrase is decrypted and used on the fly, under the covers
<kirkland> they *only* time you should ever need to manually use your mount passphrase is when/if you have to manually recover your data elsewhere, later
<kirkland> let's say you've kept good backups of your encrypted data in .Private offsite
<kirkland> and you're at a friend's house, or a client site, or something
<kirkland> and you need access to one of your files, let's say .Private/foobar
<kirkland> assuming you have access to a Linux machine with at least a 2.6.19 kernel with ecryptfs support (ideally, more like 2.6.27 or later)
<kirkland> you could:
<kirkland> mkdir /tmp/1 /tmp/2
<kirkland> cp .Private/foobar /tmp/1
<kirkland> sudo mount -t ecryptfs /tmp/1 /tmp/2
<kirkland> and then you'll get a series of interactive questions:
<kirkland> Select key type to use for newly created files:
<kirkland>  1) pkcs11-helper
<kirkland>  2) openssl
<kirkland>  3) passphrase
<kirkland>  4) tspi
<kirkland> Selection:
<kirkland> (these answers will be for the default Intrepid Encrypted Private setup)
<kirkland> ->  3) passphrase
<kirkland> Passphrase:
<kirkland> -> your_mount_passphrase_that_you_wrote_down_and_stored_somewhere_safe
<kirkland> Select cipher:
<kirkland>  1) aes: blocksize = 16; min keysize = 16; max keysize = 32 (not loaded)
<kirkland>  2) blowfish: blocksize = 16; min keysize = 16; max keysize = 32 (not loaded)
<kirkland>  3) des3_ede: blocksize = 8; min keysize = 24; max keysize = 24 (not loaded)
<kirkland>  4) twofish: blocksize = 16; min keysize = 16; max keysize = 32 (not loaded)
<kirkland>  5) cast6: blocksize = 16; min keysize = 16; max keysize = 32 (not loaded)
<kirkland>  6) cast5: blocksize = 8; min keysize = 5; max keysize = 16 (not loaded)
<kirkland> Selection [aes]:
<kirkland> -> aes
<kirkland> (note that these are the other ciphers that ecryptfs supports)
<kirkland> Select key bytes:
<kirkland>  1) 16
<kirkland>  2) 32
<kirkland>  3) 24
<kirkland> Selection [16]:
<kirkland> -> 16
<kirkland> (we might consider moving this up in Jaunty)
<kirkland> Enable plaintext passthrough (y/n) [n]:
<kirkland> -> n
<kirkland> (I'll explain this if someone really wants to know)
<kirkland> Attempting to mount with the following options:
<kirkland>   ecryptfs_key_bytes=16
<kirkland>   ecryptfs_cipher=aes
<kirkland>   ecryptfs_sig=c7fed37c0a341e19
<kirkland> Mounted eCryptfs
<kirkland> then, you can look at /tmp/2/foobar and your data is available in the clear
<kirkland> sudo umount /tmp/2
<kirkland> and it's protected again
<kirkland> note that you could have done this with the entire directory hierarchy
<kirkland> that's pretty much all i have on my mind at the moment :-)
<kirkland> any other questions?
<kirkland> maybe time for 1 more?
<kirkland> well you've been a great audience :-)  thanks for your time and attention!
<kirkland> <lvzimmer> QUESTION: where do I find more info?
<kirkland> let's see ...
<kirkland> the design docs for Intrepid's Encrypted Private are: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EncryptedPrivateDirectory
<kirkland> the quickstart help guide is: http://help.ubuntu.com/community/EncryptedPrivateDirectory
<kirkland> the upstream project page is https://launchpad.net/ecryptfs
<kirkland> ubuntu bugs in ecryptfs is: https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ecryptfs-utils
<kirkland> the user's mailing list is: ecryptfs-users@lists.launchpad.net
<kirkland> join the launchpad team: https://edge.launchpad.net/~ecryptfs-users
<kirkland> and get a little badge :-)
<kirkland> if you're interested in development: https://edge.launchpad.net/~ecryptfs-devel
<kirkland> okay, i think that's all from me
<quintale> thanks a lot
<kirkland> and i just checked my email ... encrypted filename patches just hit LKML in the last hour :-)
<komputes> kirkland: and implemented into intrepid by when?
<kirkland> komputes: this one will not be implemented in intrepid
<komputes> jaunty it is... :(
<kirkland> komputes: think jaunty
<kirkland> it's a major change that involves a large kernel patch, and userspace changes
<kirkland> anyway, i think i'm done!
<komputes> thanks for the presentation man
<tonytiger> thanks kirkland
<gv0rr> thanks
<kirkland> come visit in #ubuntu-hardened sometime ;-)
<Rafik> kirkland: thank you
* stdin changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Next session starts at 5 Nov 15:00 UTC | Welcome to Openweek, questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat please | Session details here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
<danbhfive> test
<jmk2> danbhfive: ?
<danbhfive> mk, its just quieter here
<danbhfive> do you have a terminal open?
<jmk2> yep
<woody86> is UTC the same as GMT?
<danbhfive> jmk2: sudo apt-get dist-upgrade
<stdin> woody86: yes
<jmk2> i get the following:
<jmk2> E: Could not get lock /var/lib/dpkg/lock - open (11 Resource temporarily unavailable)
<jmk2> E: Unable to lock the administration directory (/var/lib/dpkg/), is another process using it?
<woody86> stdin, thanks :D just checking
<stdin> danbhfive, jmk2: please don't use here as a support channel. use /msg
<woody86> stdin, I seem to keep on missing the classes, and I don't like it :(
<danbhfive> mk
<stdin> woody86: logs are already up
#ubuntu-classroom 2008-11-05
<woody86> stdin, what logs? where?
<stdin> woody86: click the Open Week link in the topic, then click on the class name to get the log
<woody86> stdin, oh, thanks :D
<bbb> dmesg
<nat3> ...
<sourcode> - -!
<sourcode> nat3: hello, thailand
<bbb> relax guy look over there
<gan-xiaofei> 0000000
<|sundown|> ÃÃ®Ã¡Ã°Ã»Ã© Ã¤Ã¥Ã­Ã¼! ÃÃ®Ã¦Ã¥Ã² Ã«Ã¨ ÃªÃ²Ã®-Ã­Ã¨Ã¡Ã³Ã¤Ã¼ Ã¬Ã­Ã¥ Ã¯Ã®Ã¬Ã®Ã·Ã¼ Ã¢ Ã¢Ã®Ã¯Ã°Ã®Ã±Ã¥ ÃªÃ®Ã­Ã´Ã¨Ã£Ã³Ã°Ã¨Ã°Ã®Ã¢Ã­Ã¨Ã¿ Ã¢Ã¨Ã°Ã²Ã³Ã Ã«Ã¼Ã­Ã»Ãµ Ã±Ã¥Ã²Ã¥Ã¢Ã»Ãµ Ã¨Ã­Ã²Ã¥Ã°Ã´Ã¥Ã©Ã±Ã®Ã¢?
<|sundown|> Good day! Can anyone help me in the matter konfigurirovniya virtual network interfaces?
* jcastro changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Current Session: Polishing a Package | Welcome to Openweek, questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat please || Session details here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
<jcastro> Welcome to day 3 of Ubuntu Open Week!
<jcastro> Schedule is here:
<jcastro> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
<jcastro> we'll begin in a few minutes
<nxvl> \o/
<persia> OK.  Welcome to the OpenWeek session Polishing a Package.
<persia> I'm Emmet Hikory, a MOTU interested in package quality, amoung other things.  I tend to prefer an interactive discussion, so please feel free to interrupt with questions if you have any.
<CuriousMe> ignore #ubuntu-classroom CRAP NOTICES SNOTES CTCPS JOINS PARTS QUITS KICKS MODES WALLOPS NICKS DCC DCCMSGS CLIENTNOTICES CLIENTCRAP CLIENTERRORS HILIGHTS
<CuriousMe> sorry for bad "ignore"
<persia> So, the goal of this session is to demonstrate some of the resources available to help improve the quality of a package.
<persia> Most packages in Ubuntu come from Debian, and those tend to have a maintainer, who generally does a pretty good job of keeping the package in shape.
<persia> While these techniques may also be applied to such packages, it's generally better to use them for packages that don't have a maintainer, at least until all those are in perfect shape.
<persia> The Ubuntu External Health Status pages try to keep track of packages that don't have Debian maintainers, and the status in relation to upstream.  You can take a look at http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/uehs/
<persia> Of most interest are the packages without a watch file or packages not updated.  These are good candidates for some investigation and polish.
<persia> For today's example, I selected the ikvm package, which is shown as out of date on http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/uehs/no_updated.html
<persia> We have version 0.34.0.4 and upstream has 0.36.0.11, which probably contains some useful improvements that users might want.
<persia> So, looking at debian/copyright for the ikvm package, we can see that the upstream homepage is at ikvm.net.  Some packages also have this information in the debian/control file, some in a README, etc.  Depending on the state of the package, you may need to hunt a bit, although the contents of debian/watch may be helpful.
<persia> So, the first step is to grab the new upstream, and prepare the update.  Doing that alone would make the package drop from the list of non-updated packages, but it's not always enough.
<persia> Next would be to take a look at the bugs outstanding against ikvm : you can see those from https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ikvm/+bugs
<persia> As you can see, there's a few bugs that indicate some adjustments are required.  At least making sure the pathnames are correct and that it can be used as a jvm seem reasonable requests, so it's worth trying to fix those as part of the update.
<weboide> persia: can you join #ubuntu-classroom-chat ?
<persia> Did I miss a question there?
<persia> < ian_brasil> QUESTION: what is the best way to package for hildon?..pass --enable-hildon into configure.ac or some other way?
<persia> Well, that's a little outside of the scope of polishing packages, but it very much depends on the upstream sources.
<persia> So, once we've cleaned up those issues, it's worth checking to see if the package is in Debian.  I usually do that by visiting http://packages.qa.debian.org
<persia> Entering the package name there will bring you to http://packages.qa.debian.org/i/ikvm.html which provides a nice summary of things needing doing.
<persia> We already knew about the new upstream, but it's worth checking the lintian warning. Apparently the manpage needs to have the charset defined, so that's another thing we can do before uploading.
<persia> There's also a link to the Debian bugtracker available from this page, so we can see the bugs in Debian.
<persia> One of these (Provide java-virtual-machine) looks a lot like the "ikvm is not installed as a viable java alternative" in Malone, so that's already done.
<persia> The other three are worth looking at in a bit more detail, and worth fixing.
<persia> Next, we'll take a look upstream.  The "Report Bugs" link on the upstream homepage goes to the sourceforge bug tracker, and shows 1 open bug, which seems different than any of the other bugs we've seen.
<persia> This one is a bit more complicated, as it's hard to reproduce, so we'll let it go, but for a different package, you might find easy bugs, or bugs with patches available that you might want.
<persia> It's also worth checking to see if the package is in other distributions, and if they have any good patches that we might want.  While this can be done manually, I tend to be lazy, and just check Harvest to use the automated patch collectors people have writted.
<persia> Harvest is available from http://daniel.holba.ch/harvest/ Checking the Sourcepackage list, we see that ikvm doesn't have any outstanding opportunities, so there's nothing to get from there.
<persia> Note that right now, Harvest is only pulling patches from Fedora : I'm sure the Harvest team would appreciate it if anyone wants to write a feed for other distributions.
<persia> So, at this point, we've investigated everything, and hopefully put all the fixes into the package.
<persia> Next is cleanup : if we found a bug not reported upstream, and not fixed with the new upstream, and needed to create a patch, it's worth reporting that to the sourceforge tracker with the patch (and linking to the bug in Launchpad).
<persia> Similarly, if patches were prepared for the Debian bugs, those patches should be attached to the relevant Debian bugs, and we should add bug watches for the BTS bugs where we found them to match bugs already in Launchpad.
<persia> At this point, we're almost ready : it's worth running lintian a last time locally, just in case there's anything that happened as a result of the patching, and the package can be uploaded.
<persia> QUESTION: Because of the different freezes in current ubuntu release for package to go into repos, there's no real point in updating packages for intrepid for example? (except for release critical bugs right?)
<persia> For intrepid, no.  For Jaunty, there's great value in updating and polishing the packages.  Most packages have open bugs that don't get fixed because they aren't so important to the people usually working on the package (or maybe nobody works on the package).
<persia> While none of these would qualify for a stable release update (targeted at intrepid today), fixing them in the development release (jaunty today) means that when the next release happens, those users affected by the bugs are likely to be very pleased.
<persia> QUESTION: how can one get rights to upload a package? or should a updated package be sent to the maintainer?
<persia> Well, none of the packages listed at UEHS have an explicit maintainer : generally it's either one of the Ubuntu packaging teams or the Debian QA team.  In cases where there is a Maintainer, it's best to communicate the patches in the Debian BTS, but if there's enough oustanding, or a good reason to update in Ubuntu (and you plan to track the package), one doesn't have to wait for the maintainer to upload.
<persia> If one doesn't yet have permission to upload, it's best to attach either a debdiff (no new upstream version), or the resulting diff.gz from the updated package to a bug, and subscribe the relevant sponsors team (ubuntu-main-sponsors or ubuntu-universe-sponsors) to request review and upload.
<persia> Any other questions?  Is the process by which one finds various reported bugs or minor issues clear?
<persia> QUESTION: would harvest benefit from integration into maemo or are the patches there automatically pulled into ubuntu-mid
<persia> Well, I'm not sure what "integration into maemo" would mean for harvest, but any additional feeds to pull patches from known reliable patch authors for harvest would probably be good, as this helps to provide a complete picture of available fixes.
<persia> The package I picked didn't happen to be listed there, but if you look at other packages in the sourcepackages list, you can see that some have quite a few available patches, perhaps from Fedora, or perhaps in the bugtracker.
<persia> The more sources from which patches are available and shown, the easier it is for those cleaning up packages to make sure they are perfect.
<persia> QUESTION: there's a package with a new version in debian, but also a new (at the top) upstream version. What should we do? packaging it for debian, then packaging it for ubuntu?
<persia> Well, if you pick a package without a Debian Maintainer, and you prepare a new upstream version, it's worth checking with the Debian QA team to see if they would appreciate the update.  Generally they advise that you might want to become the Debian maintainer, but rarely turn down help.
<persia> If such an update is accepted into Debian, and the Ubutu repositories are not yet frozen, that can be synced directly into Ubuntu, so there's no value in packaging it separately for Ubuntu.
<persia> If there's some reason that it can't be updated, or significant delay, and a freeze is approaching, or you really want to, it's worth sending it to Ubuntu directly, although usually this is just a change to the first line of the changelog, rather than a significant packaging difference.
<persia> Also note that it's not always worth grabbing the very newest upstream : it may be that upstream has a stable release and a development release, and doesn't recommend the development release for most users.  It may also be that a new upstream is incompatible with something else in some way, which may have to be resolved before it can be updated.
<persia> For packages with Maintainers, it's especially desirable not to update in advance of Debian, unless you're personally willing to be responsible for the package until Debian catches up: most Maintainers will update soon enough, and it's best not to duplicate work (as there are plenty of packages without maintainers).
<persia> meaning we should look for ophans packages ?
<persia> Well, I recommend starting with the packages in UEHS, or the packages in Harvest.  Either is a good source of packages needing work.  I usually recommend UEHS more at the beginning of a development cycle, and Harvest later, once things start to settle.
<persia> Every package in UEHS is either orphaned in Debian, or doesn't exist in Debian, and so has no specific individual maintainer.
<persia> Many packages in Harvest have a Debian maintainer, but in Ubuntu there are no specific maintainers generally, so most packages are fair game for basic updates.
<persia> There's no need to look specifically for an orphaned package.  Of course, if there's nothing in UEHS, and nothing in Harvest, then maybe it's worth it, but there's a few thousand packages that need a bit of polich first :)
<persia> I think we have time for one more question before the end, if anyone has one.
<persia> weboide> persia: ok, so the most important would be UEHS, Harvest, and then orphans (debian or not?) packages
<persia> Well, once UEHS and Harvest are clear, I'd suggest just looking for packages with a few bugs in Launchpad, and using the same techniques to bring them up to date.  Doesn't really matter if they are orphaned.
<persia> And with that, I'll turn you over to the Ubuntu Netbook Remix crew.  Thanks for attending.
<Tolchi> ty persia
* jcastro changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Current Session: Ubuntu Netbook Remix: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/openweekintrepid/NetbookRemix | Welcome to Openweek, questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat please || Session details here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
<jcastro> Ok guys, take it away!
<repete_> Hi all
<repete_> There is a presentation that goes along with this talkk
<repete_> you can find it linked in the topic
<knome> \o/
<repete_> I am Pete Goodall, the product manager for the OEM Services group at Canonical.  And joining me are Neil Patel and Bill Filler, also with OEM Services
<artir> weee
<bfiller> bfiller: hello everyone :)
<njpatel> hi
<repete_> I'll give you a quick agenda:
<repete_> * Canonical and OEM Services Group
<repete_> * What is Ubuntu Netbook Remix (UNR)?
<repete_> * Ubuntu Netbook Remix pre-installed
<repete_> * Installing UNR
<repete_> * Language Support
<repete_> * Contributing to UNR
<repete_> If you have the presentation, let's go to slide 3 "Canonical"
<repete_> For those of you that don't know Canonical is the commercial sponsor of the Ubuntu project.  We employ many of the developers that work on Ubuntu.
<repete_> <next slide, "OEM Services Group">
<repete_> Neil, Bill and I work for the OEM Services group at Canonical, and we are the group that is responsible for customising Ubuntu for device manufacturers
<repete_> By "customising" we mean making sure that all the hardware components work, integrating custom interfaces (ala Dell) and providing on-going maintenance.
<repete_> <next slide, flashy title slide>
<repete_> <next slide, "Netbook Category">
<repete_> Before I get into "What is Ubuntu Netbook Remix" I wanted to define what we mean about what a netbook is.
<repete_> This is a term that is mostly coined by Intel, but refers to all these devices coming out that look like little laptops.
<repete_> They usually have a resolution of 1024x600 (particularly problematic), and a low amount of local storage.  They also tend to be low cost devices and have an Intel Atom processor.
<repete_> However, the Intel Atom processor is not a hard requirement ;-)
<repete_> <next slide, "Ubuntu Netbook Remix">
<repete_> Ubuntu Netbook Remix came about because there was a massive amount of interest in running Ubuntu on these netbooks
<repete_> We wanted to create a simple interface that was both easy to use, but put everything you needed within your view.
<repete_> UNR is really bringing Linux to a new class of user, that typically doesn't know what Linux is
<repete_> they just want to get their e-mail or blog, or chat with friends
<repete_> We based UNR on Ubuntu 8.04 because it is an LTS release (long term support), and we tried to streamline things a bit by reducing the amount of applications preinstalled.  However, that doesn't mean you cannot install whatever you want.
<repete_> <next slide, "UNR Home Screen">
<repete_> Hopefully you all have the slides, but if you don't I just want to explain about the various elements of the UNR home screen, and what they do.
<repete_> There are several components created specifically for UNR that create the look, feel and functionality.
<repete_> The main thing the user sees when they start UNR is the Home Screen.  On the left are application categories.  In the middle are application launchers, and on the right are (generally) places and a way turn the device off.
<nb72> It's nitpicky but battery and network labels are backwards, sorry for the interruption
<repete_> nb72, np.  I'll have to look at that. ;-)
<nanno> hi
<repete_> Anway, most of this will be familiar to you if you already use Ubuntu, but one thing that is slightly different is the "Favourites" cateogory.  This allows the user to group the applications they use most, and this is the default category shown when you first login.
<repete_> In the upper left of the screen, you see the Ubuntu logo and that is the "Go Home Applet".  Clicking on that always brings you back to the home screen.  So while you are using Firefox, you click on Go Home and start something else, like Pidgin.
<repete_> Next to that is the Window Picker Applet.  The icons to the right of the Ubuntu logo are the currently running applications and the title to the right is the application in focus.  In this case "Home", but otherwise it would be the title bar for the currently running application.
<repete_> The element you do not see is "Maximus".  This is a daemon that runs in the background and make sure most applications always open maximised.
<repete_> The reason we do this is to save screen real estate.  Maximus also removes the title bar from the application window and puts it in the panel.
<repete_> In addition, there is a gconf key to add application exceptions.  We hope to make it easier in the future to do that. :-)
 * repete_ looks at Neil ;-)
<repete_> <next slide, "Best Open Source Applications">
<repete_> Since UNR is based on Ubuntu 8.04 it still includes the applications current Ubuntu users (and Linux users in general) will be familiar with.  These applications are all open source, and we always use open source applications when possible.
<repete_> <next slide, "Open Source contributions">
<repete_> All the components we created for UNR are open source software.
<bfiller> available at http://launchpad.net/unr
<repete_> I have already mentioned most of the, except for two:  The Human Netbook Theme and Desktop Switcher.
<repete_> The Human Netbook Theme is a theme, based on the standard Ubuntu Human theme, that goes better with UNR's components and layout.
<repete_> The Desktop Switcher is a control centre applet that allows the user to switch back and forth between the UNR and the standard Ubuntu interface (termed as the "Classic" interface)
<repete_> Thanks for the link bfiller
<repete_> <next slide, "Canonical partners">
<repete_> As a value add for the device manufacturers, we include various third party components to make a more complete product.
<repete_> These are commercial components (read: somebody has to be paid for their use), so we cannot include them in the publicly available offering.
<repete_> But they are things that generally make things easier for those users that are not familiar with Linux and don't know how to install stuff like Adobe Flash, or legally licensed audio and video decoders.
<repete_> <next slide, "Ubuntu Netbook Remix pre-installed">
<repete_> So as I mentioned before we work with device manufacturers to get Ubuntu and Ubuntu Netbook Remix on their device.  This has a number of advantages.
<repete_> First, this means that all the hardware components work out of the box.  That means you don't have to download and compile the latest madwifi or search user forums for which Windows driver to use with ndiswrapper.
<repete_> Second, suspend and resume works...more than once :-)
<repete_> In fact we test these devices to a much higher standard because those are the standards of the consumer electronics industry.
<njpatel> for example, suspend/resume tests are carried out between 300-400 times in a row before they are deemed a "pass"
<repete_> Third, you can actually get support from the manufacturer.  No more, "I'm sorry, but we don't support Linux... and I don't actually know what that is..."
<repete_> Thx njpatel
<repete_> Fourth, is what I talked about before.  We include stuff like audio and video decoders that are legally licensed.
<njpatel> it also means that all the buttons on your keyboard work from the get-go :-D !
<repete_> And of course we test that all this stuff works.
<repete_> If you haven't already got a netbook and are looking to get one, the Sylvania g Netbook Meso and the Toshiba NB100 are both available with UNR pre-installed.
<repete_> <next slide, "What if UNR isn't pre-installed">
<bfiller> and the Dell Mini 9 ships with a UNR variant
<repete_> So you may be saying to yourself, "I already bought a netbook and I just want to know how to run Ubuntu on it."
<repete_> Just as a note, that screenshot on that slide is thanks to Gimp, not the watermark in the lower left. :-)
<repete_> <next slide, "Installing Ubuntu Netbook Remix">
<repete_> Many community members have been asking for an installation image for UNR.  We have not had one to date because UNR isn't really a new edition.
<repete_> However, it is obvious this is something that people want because they already have a netbook and want Ubuntu one it.
<repete_> Soon (this week I hope) we will downloadable images for you to install UNR and you won't even need a (non existent in many cases) CD-ROM.
<repete_> Otherwise, your best bet for now (if you are impatient) is to use the instructions in the next slide.
<repete_> <next slide, "Ubuntu Netbook Remix on Ubuntu 8.10">
<repete_> As I mentioned, products with UNR will be based on Ubuntu 8.04, but we have made the packages for UNR available in Ubuntu 8.10.
<repete_> One thing to note is that the "ume-launcher" package has been re-named in 8.10 to "netbook-launcher"
<njpatel> the central place for installation instructions are at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/unr (instructions for image, hardy, intrepid, umpc-image)
<repete_> The packages in 8.10 do not have the latest and greatest features, because we had to respect the feature freeze for 8.10.  However, if you want to use the latest and greatest in 8.10 you can use the PPA.
<repete_> (linked later)
<bfiller> also important to note, the unr pacakges can be installed on any computer running Ubuntu 8.04 or 8.10 (i.e. not just netbook, but laptops and desktops too)
<repete_> another good point bfiller thx.
<repete_> <next slide, "Contributing to UNR">
<repete_> Since UNR was first announced, we have built a vibrant community and have already taken both patches and suggestions from the community.
<repete_> If you are interested in getting involved in UNR you should go to the UNR page on Launchpad, http://launchpad.net/unr
<repete_> That page is a "super group" that includes all the packages for UNR.  You can checkout the code using bzr.
<repete_> I don't know if it has come up in the questions already, but the UNR Home Screen is written in Clutter.
<repete_> If you are not already familiar with clutter... Use Google. :-)
<bfiller> repete_: time check, 10 mins remaining, should we get to the Q+A from questions on #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<repete_> Sure.
<repete_> QUESTION: could UNR be used to revive old computers , and will there be iso images for virtualbox so people can have an look at it this way?
<bfiller> knome QUESTION: So Asus EeePC is a netbook?
<bfiller> oops sorry repete_ , was starting from the top
<repete_> np
<repete_> go ahead.
<bfiller> ok
<bfiller> knome: yes EeePC is a netbook
<bfiller> <ian_brasil> QUESTION: what is the difference between ubuntu-mid and unr
<njpatel> <ian_brasil> QUESTION: what is the difference between ubuntu-mid and unr
 * njpatel let's bfiller post the questions from now on
 * bfiller smiles
<njpatel> ubuntu-mid is targetted at devices which have touchscreens and normally small displays with high dpis
<njpatel> unr (although capable of use with touch-screens) is targetted more at slightly larger screens and point-and-click ui
<michLinuxGuy> Are there any plans for Ubuntu on the Nokia n810?
<bfiller> billybigrigger: QUESTION: what is running on the homescreen? looks like a gnome panel with kde4 menu???
<njpatel> The home screen consists of gnome-panel and a clutter-based launcher
<njpatel> the launcher replaces the traditional desktop
<njpatel> no kdelibs in sight ;-)
<bfiller> billybigrigger: QUESTION: what is the default install size for UNR?
<bfiller> billybigrigger: it's about 2.5 GB installed
<bfiller> meant to fix on 4 GB SSD and greater
<bfiller> s/fix/fit
<bfiller> <xander21c> QUESTION: will UNR will have USB Install Option
<hammer__> has anyone heard of retail point of sale software?
<hammer__> I am at work so I have to make this legit
<bfiller> xander21c: the UNR image will be installable via bootable USB image, so yes
<bfiller> <lordnoid> QUESTION: There's a rumour around that Asus doesn't like the xandros distribution and is currently testing ubuntu for the eee pc. Do you know anything about that?
<bfiller> repete_: care to comment on this question?
<repete_> Even if I did I couldn't comment :-)
<hammer__> I know many people imediatly put ubuntu on there eee when they get them
<bfiller> I don't know anything about it either
<repete_> I will say that *many* people have install UNR on a eeePC
<bfiller> next question ..
<bfiller> <unimatrix9> QUESTION: could UNR be used to revive old computers , and will there be iso images for virtualbox so people can have an look at it this way?
<njpatel> as the launcher is clutter-based this poses a bit of a problem
<hammer__> You have to be able to boot via usb for it to work
<njpatel> clutter uses opengl for displaying, so if the old computer can run opengl decently, everything should work fine
<hammer__> I tried back in the day with pentium 2s and small dog
<bfiller> currently we don't have plans to provide iso image, only .img
<bfiller> <hhlp> <QUESTION> whta is the diference between ubuntu-eepc and UNR
<njpatel> for the same reason, it won't work inside virtualbox (it may do in software rendering, but it'll suck)
<jcastro> (last question)
<njpatel> hhlp: not sure what you mean
<jcastro> ok we are out of time, what irc channel can people follow up on?
<repete_> hhlp, eeePC is a device and UNR is the software that (could) run on that device.
<repete_> #ubuntu-mobile
<njpatel> people can follow up on #ubuntu-mobile
<repete_> thx all!
<jcastro> excellent, thanks guys!
<bfiller> thank you
* jcastro changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Current Session: Community Q+A: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/openweekintrepid/NetbookRemix | Welcome to Openweek, questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat please || Session details here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
<hammer__> are you on facebook I found this via jono on facebook, add me paul gysler
<hammer__> whats our topic
<jcastro> ok next session is ubuntu Q+A
<jcastro> please ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<knome> jcastro, you might want to remove the netbookremix -url
<jcastro> knome: duh, thanks
<knome> np
* jcastro changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Current Session: Community Q+A | Welcome to Openweek, questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat please || Session details here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
<jcastro> jono: take it away, man of metal!
<jono> hey everyone!
<hammer__> OK I still am at work so I will ask the question, has anyone heard of a point of sale software for ubuntu in a retail store like ace hardware
<hammer__> yea
<jono> hammer__, please, speak in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<jcastro> hammer__: please keep this channel ontopic, we're having a session
<jono> ok folks, welcome to the Community Q+A session :)
<hammer__> help me out I am noob on IRC
<jono> my name is Jono and I am the Ubuntu Community Manager working at Canonical
<jono> my job is to help the Ubuntu community to be a strong community
<hammer__> And a musician, "Linux outlaw"
<jono> hammer__, please....#ubuntu-classroom-chat
<hammer__> oh
<jono> at every open week session I have a Q+A where you can ask any questions you like about the ubuntu community, me, my team or related topics
<jono> so, head over to #ubuntu-classroom-chat and ask your questions there, prefixing them with QUESTION, eg:
<jcastro> FreelanceJazz will be pasting in the questions
<jono> QUESTION: Why is metal the greatest artform in the work?
<jono> world
<jono> oopshehe
<jono> hehe
<FreelanceJazz> ... lol
<kenvandine> hehe
<jono> thanks FreelanceJazz
<FreelanceJazz> No problem Mr Bacon
<jono> so let me give you folks a few mins to ask some questions, and then we will begin
<FreelanceJazz> QUESTION: Any support for Ubuntu on the Nokia n810?
<FreelanceJazz> from michlinuxguy
<jono> Ubuntu does not run on the n810 right now, but a bunch of related Free Software technologies do
<jono> we have seen the Nokia Internet Tablets be a great breeding ground for free software
<jono> but Ubuntu is not available for it
<FreelanceJazz> unimatrix9: QUESTION: is the ubuntu community structure becoming to complex for mortal soul to understand, or do you think its very transparant?
<jono> good question
<nxvl> FreelanceJazz: question on ubuntu-clasroom-chat please
<jono> nxvl, he is pasting them for me
<nxvl> oh
<nxvl> :D
<nxvl> then ignore me
<FreelanceJazz> No worries
<jono> nxvl, will do :)
 * jono chuckles
<jono> I think the community always faces the risk of becoming too complex, but have worked hard to keep it as simple as possible
<jono> much of this is about communication - helping people to understand how to slide their brick in the wall
<jono> with so many teams, structures, processes and governance, that can be difficult at times - but in the next cycle we are going to continue to improve this
<jono> I am confident that we can always make the community a simple place to get involved, and initiatives like Ubuntu Open Week, Ubuntu Developer Week, 5-A-Day, Jams and more, really help this along
<jono> but, one important point...
<jono> if you think it is too complex - let  me know
<jono> jono AT ubuntu DOT com
<FreelanceJazz> xander21c: QUESTION: Is there cases of Ubuntu LoCO currently working us companies giving support?
<jono> not sure I understand the question, can you ask again
<FreelanceJazz> DoruHush: QUESTION: What others subjects should we choose to discuss?
<jono> in which context, DoruHush ?
<FreelanceJazz> I think they mean 'what can we talk about in this session?'
<LjL> no
<LjL> read the lines above that
<DoruHush> ubuntu.ro open nights
<knome> 19:10  DoruHush: with only 3 days, called ,,Ubuntu.ro Open Nights" with this sessions:
<knome> 19:10  DoruHush: ,,Ubuntu.ro Team", ,,If you used windows - about open alternatives", ,,How to become involved in translatoins",
<knome> 19:10  DoruHush: ,,Compiling a program - workshop", ,,Using subtitles when payng video files in vlc - workshop".
<knome> 19:10  DoruHush: The ,,Ubuntu.ro Open Nights" will take place next week on #ubuntu-ro IRC channel.
<knome> 19:10  DoruHush: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RomanianTeam/Proiecte/Suport/SerileDeschiseNov2008
<knome> ^ context
<jono> I am not in ubuntu-ro, so I can't really answer
<FreelanceJazz> LjL: QUESTION: Can teams (not limited to LoCo teams) obtain an "official" status? If so, how, and how is a team's status checked?
<jono> we don't really have the concept of official teams, but we do have established teams
<jono> some teams have been around since the birth of ubuntu, so many see them as official
<jono> but the definition of official and approved in our community is anything approved by the Community Council
<jono> if the CC deem something right for Ubuntu, you can consider it as official
<FreelanceJazz> RoAkSoAx: QUESTION: xander21c asks if there are cases where Ubuntu LoCo Teams are currently working with companies, by giving support
<jono> sure, there are many cases all over the world where companies look to LoCo teams for advice and support
<jono> many companies typically hear about Ubuntu, and they look to the community to find out more
<jono> and in many cases they find their LoCo who also help them
<jono> this is an excellent, and important function that LoCo teams provide for Ubuntu
<jono> :)
<FreelanceJazz> cyphermox: QUESTION: what do you think is the most interesting achievement that we've made as a community? Aside from releasing Intrepid, of course ;)
<jono> ooh great question
<jono> aside from delivering Ubuntu, every six months, which is in itself an incredibly achievement...
<jono> I think the most stunning thing that we have achieved is our sense of adventure in our community
<jono> we really do have a strong sense of changing things, and  having an impact
<jono> but importantly, this sense of drive is underlined with an even stronger sense of togetherness in how we move forward
<jono> I am proud that our community actually "feels" like a community
<jono> we work together, we manage problems together, we celebrate together and we console each other together - Ubuntu is not just about kick-arse distribution development, but about friends, and that is the what I think is our crowning achievement
<FreelanceJazz> Xoke: QUESTION:  Do you think Nvidia will ever sort their drivers out properly on linux.  Not neccersarily opening them up but getting the darn things to work properly (nvidia-96 and 71 still have issues on intrepid). I'm not blaming ubuntu on the nvidia screwups mind, just wondering if they will ever open up to ubuntu
<jono> proprietary software is always riddled with these kinds of issues, and its frustrating for a distribution of course because we generally have a tapestry of free software, and when we see bugs, we fix them
<jono> we can't do that with closed sourced code, and that makes us feel uncomfortable  about compromising the quality and stability of Ubuntu
<jono> but I think one day, NVidia *will* get it
<jono> but the driving force is going to be economics - NVidia need to know it is not commercially sensible to have a closed source driver
<jono> and market changes will make that happen - but  I think Intel and ATI will drive them that way
<FreelanceJazz> unimatrix9: QUESTION: If Canonical was to stop supporting Ubuntu, because of the financial crisis ( lets hope it does not happen ) what effect would this have on the community? (NB: edited to make it make real sense in the form of an official question)
<jono> ok, so first and foremost, Canonical is *not* going to stop supporting Ubuntu
<jono> and not stop developing Ubuntu
<jono> I know we are in worrying times right now, but we are confident we can ride the storm out
<jono> and Mark is 100% behind that
<jono> so firstly, don't worry
<jono> but now onto how sustainable Ubuntu is without Ubuntu
<jono> oops
<jono> without Canonical
<jono> if Canonical went away, it would naturally affect Ubuntu - we hire a lot of developers and other staff who work on training, support, marketing, certification, testing and more
<jono> all of these functions revolve around the Ubuntu platform
<jono> but at the heart of Ubuntu is community, and open and transparent community, and with this central governance in place, it means that if Canonical went away, Ubuntu could carry on
<FreelanceJazz> LjL: QUESTION: Wouldn't it be beneficial, for various coordination tasks, for teams or projects that have been approved by the Community Council to bear a mark in Launchpad (by being themselvse a member of Ubuntu Members, or another such trick)?
<jono> LjL, possibly - I am sure that just outlining "approved by the CC" status would change the social economics of the project that much, but possibly - will note it down
<FreelanceJazz> r000n: QUESTION: Why Ubuntu includes Mono software even in LiveCD version? Problems with MS patents impossible?
<jono> ahhh the great Mono debate :)
<jono> I am not going to delve into this too far as Mono has been debated often enough across the  net
<jono> but its important to remember a few things:
<jono> the Mono project very specifically separate out the core library and framework (which is all legally above board) from the bits which could worry a few lawyers
<jono> as such, the Mono project themselves have insulated the vast majority of potential legal threats
<jono> secondly, a lot of people rag on Mono (the clearly legal bits), but forget that Microsoft have targeted many other parts of the Linux stack, so lets not see Mono as the only problem
<FreelanceJazz> DoruHush: QUESTION: Ubuntu will include in the future multimedia made by the users, that will be placed in âExampleâ folder. What is the procedure, if one whant to contribute.
<jono> this is the Ubuntu Free Culture Showcase - it is a competition on each release cycle where we like to showcase quality Free Culture media by including it in the Examples/ folder in Ubuntu
<jono> we will be launching the Ubuntu Free Culture Showcase later in the cycle - just stay tuned for more details
<jono> I will announce it on my blog, which will appear on Planet Ubuntu and The Fridge
<FreelanceJazz> Picklesworth: QUESTION: What should new teams and development projects around Ubuntu do so that people are better able and more welcome to contribute?
<jono> the best gift to a new contributor is an outstretched hand
<jono> every new contributor wants to feel welcomes, and like there is someone there who can help
<jono> as such I recommend that when you see new people, introduce yourself, ask them how you can help them, and get them up and running with things to do
<jono> I also recommend that all teams make it really easy for someone to find out:
<jono>  * how to join the team
<jono>  * what they need to know to contribute
<jono>  * what the team hopes to achieve
<jono> this will help people get up and running quickly :)
<FreelanceJazz> sloopy: QUESTION: Finding info (HOW TO's, ubuntu specific FAQ's, etcs) on the help pages (help.ubuntu.com, wiki.ubuntu.com,etc) is hard to browse often, so i have to resort to using google to find specific info within those pages, any suggestions on how to make help more accessable/easier to get answers to questions and issues?
<jono> I think there are lots of opportunities for us to improve how we deal with help
<jono> I think it would be great to have better methods of searching and indexing help
<jono> and better processes for updating, refining, and knowing what people need help on
<jono> I would recommend working with the docs team on this - this is valuable work
<FreelanceJazz> xander21c: QUESTION: Do LoCos can be registered as some kind of organization to obtain profit by giving ubuntu support
<jono> no, we don't offer direct funding right now through a programme - Canonical does sponsor some LoCos, but that is at our discretion
<FreelanceJazz> cyphermox: QUESTION: Would there be a benefit is growing your team to overlook different parts of the world, e.g. someone for NA, somebody else for Europe, or Asia, etc.?
<jono> I don't think it makes that much sense right now to focus on geographical regions, but my team could benefit from focus on additional areas of the community
<jono> in fact, right now I am hiring a new horseman or horsewoman to focus on translations, and I would like to expand the team into other areas in the future
<FreelanceJazz> unimatrix9: QUESTION: will ubuntu have legal open source DVD playback any time soon?
<jono> I am not really the best person to answer that question - I don't work with ISVs
<jono> ok so we are done with all the questions so fatr
<jono> any more?
<FreelanceJazz> RoAkSoAx: QUESTION: can we register our LoCo team as some kind of organization in our own country? which kind?
<jono> some team have done that with LoCos to make them legal entities, mainly for tax and financial reasons
<jono> I would only recommend that you do this if you absolutely have to
<jono> its a paperwork nightmare
<FreelanceJazz> unimatrix9: QUESTION: are most of the community based in europe , how does it look from the other side of the world?
<jono> the community really is worldwide
<jono> as an example, we have 170+ LoCo teams, in pretty much every country in the world
<jono> we have a huge worldwide spread in all teams and in all kinds of contribution
<jono> any more questions?
<FreelanceJazz> samgee: QUESTION: when Gobuntu died both you and Mark Shuttleworth expressed interessed in working closer together with gNewSense. How is that coming along?
<jono> I have not had a chance to check in with the development team to if we have made any more changes in that direction
<jono> I think Gobuntu helped us in one very specific way though
<jono> it framed a new question in Ubuntu, a question that helped us assess freedom in different ways
<jono> any more q's?
<jono> ok I think we are done
<jono> thanks for the questions folks!
<FreelanceJazz> Wait!
<FreelanceJazz> yusuf_: Question: Ubuntu without the internet is not very intresting. is there improvment being made on this aspect?
<jono> I will finish on this one
<jono> we want Ubuntu to be valuable in the unconnected world, and that is why we care so much about getting as much on the disc as possible - we want to be able to ship a complete system for offline use
<jono> but with the entire world becoming so connection, naturally, a lot of our focus will be there
<jono> thanks folks!
<cyphermox> jono: thanks! \o/
<jono> and thanks to FreelanceJazz for helping with pasting the questons :)
<FreelanceJazz> No worries
<jono> Xoke> jono, you have to end by saying 'communitising the community, using community tools' :P
<Xoke> lol
<jono> communitising the community, using community tools
<Xoke> thanks jono :)
<jono> :)
<Xoke> for the whole session, not just cutting and pasting :P
<kenvandine> jono: one word... belonging :)
<jono> ok next up is a session on Kubuntyu, stay tuned folks :)
<jono> kenvandine, :)
<jono> Kubuntu, rather
<jcastro> About ~5 minutes until Kubuntu, now's a good chance for everyone to take a quick break
<dudus> I'd rather keep my front row place
<jcastro> heh
* jcastro changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Current Session: Kubuntu - reinventing QA the resource-limited way  | Welcome to Openweek, questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat please || Session details here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
<jcastro> ok JontheEchidna, it's all yours!
<JontheEchidna> Ok! Let's rock this.
 * knome sheds dudus and steals the best place
<JontheEchidna> My name is Jonathan, you can call me Jon
<JontheEchidna> I assume you are either idling here because you were in the last session
<JontheEchidna> or you came here to listen to my type about Qa
<JontheEchidna> which in this case is Quality assurance
<JontheEchidna> Ever been bitten by a bug? Have you ever seen people complain about bugs in Kubuntu on the web?
<JontheEchidna> I'm guessing most people have, but fear not! You can help
<JontheEchidna> Starting in the middle of Intrepid we have started to try to make a process to help ensure that Kubuntu is good
<JontheEchidna> and as a result it is easier than ever to jump in
<JontheEchidna> To answer the question "How can I help improve the quality of Kubuntu" I will show what we at Kubuntu (should) do to handle bugs and make sure they get resolved
<JontheEchidna> -Bug reports are the most direct means of feedback
<JontheEchidna> Without them, we cannot know about bugs
<JontheEchidna> Something that absolutely anybody can do is report bugs
<JontheEchidna> you can't know how irritating it is to hear people say "omg kubuntu is so buggy" but then never say what was wrong :/
<JontheEchidna> So bug reporting is a great way of helping to make sure issues get resolved
<JontheEchidna> But, as anybody who has taken a look at the Ubuntu bug tracker may already know, we get a *lot* of bug reports
<JontheEchidna> and bug reports do pile up over time....
<JontheEchidna> so to be able to efficiently handle them all, we must triage them and otherwise get the number of reports down
<JontheEchidna> Kubuntu is lucky that it generally only has to worry about bugs for KDE or KDE related packages and Kubuntu tools such as the restricted drivers manager
<JontheEchidna> but we still have ~3000 bugs in launchpad that contain either the words "kde" or "kubuntu"
<JontheEchidna> and at the moment we have 4 or 5 people triaging the whole thing
<JontheEchidna> Here is what we do to handle bug
<JontheEchidna> s
<JontheEchidna> First, we look for duplicate bugs
<JontheEchidna> Second, we see if the bug has proper information to be handled
<JontheEchidna> We want to see at least: Kubuntu/KDE version
<JontheEchidna> -good backtraces if the bug is a crasher
<JontheEchidna> and instructions on how to reproduce are vital for non-crash bugs, and very nice even for bugs with a backtrace
<JontheEchidna> If you see a bug that lacks any of the above, please request the information from the reporter and set the status to incomplete
<JontheEchidna> If the backtrace for a crasher contains lots of (no debugging symbols found) lines, the user will need to install the approriate debugging symbol package
<JontheEchidna> plasma and kwin have debugging symbols in kdebase-workspace-dbg
<JontheEchidna> most other apps are easy to figure out since they belong to a KDE module
<JontheEchidna> <Oxyhydrogen> QUESTION: what are backtraces? and how to get such a thing?
<JontheEchidna> good question!
<JontheEchidna> backtraces are logs that give information about where in a program's source code the crash happened
<JontheEchidna> this can help pinpoint buggy code
<JontheEchidna> and they help to find duplicates
<JontheEchidna> continuing
<JontheEchidna> Sadly, many people are what can be called "hit-and-run reporters"
<JontheEchidna> They report a bug and assume that the developers are magical fairies that can fix anything
<JontheEchidna> if nobody responds to a request for information within a month, we generally have to close the bug since it can't be investigated
<JontheEchidna> and would be clogging the bugtracker otherwise
<JontheEchidna> But what to do when we do get enough info to investigate the bug?
<JontheEchidna> If the bug is not something we at Kubuntu have caused, the best course of action is to let KDE know about they bug
<JontheEchidna> Once we get enough info, reports should be filed upstream and linked to our bugtracker
<JontheEchidna> This is essential to getting bugs fixed
<JontheEchidna> Because just like us, KDE can't fix bugs they don't know aobut
<JontheEchidna> The first step when upstreaming a bug is to search the KDE bug tracker!
<JontheEchidna> Duplicate bugs aren't nice to the bug triagers upstream
<JontheEchidna> If you can't find the bug upstream then we can report it
<JontheEchidna> KDE has a nice feature where you can report a bug to KDE from the About menu of the application. If you have the same version of KDE as the user reporting the bug, you can use this to save time filling out info about your software setup :D
<JontheEchidna> Once you have posted the bug upstream, you will then need to link the bug back to launchpad
<JontheEchidna> Above the bug description in Launchpad there should be a button that says "Also affects project". From there you paste in the url to the KDE bug report
<JontheEchidna> A more in-depth look at upstreaming bugs will be given by jcastro in the next session "Upstreaming bugs"
<JontheEchidna> It is also important to keep an eye on the upstream bug
<JontheEchidna> subscribe yourself to either the upstream bug or the launchpad bug with the upstream watch
<JontheEchidna> As bugs get fixed upstream, the fixes do have to make their way back down to us
<JontheEchidna> If an upstream bug is marked as Fixed, we can set the launchpad bug to "fix committed", because the fix has been committed upstream
<JontheEchidna> If we are early on in the development cycle, the bugs will generally be taken care of when we update the KDE packages to the latest  KDE release
<JontheEchidna> But if the last KDE release before our Final release has been made, then we should patch the bugs with the upstream fix to make sure they aren't in the final release
<JontheEchidna> To do this we grab the patch from KDE. They generally tell us what svn revision we can find the patch in
<JontheEchidna> And then we add that patch to our packages, following this method: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide/Complete#quilt%20%28example%20package:%20xterm%29
<JontheEchidna> Once the patch is sponsored and uploaded, we can mark the bug fixed :)
<JontheEchidna> Of course, if you have C++ skills you are emplored to attack any of the bugs either in Launchpad or the KDE bug tracker
<JontheEchidna> This benefits both us and KDE
<JontheEchidna> = Kubuntu bugs =
<JontheEchidna> actually, before I get in to non-KDE bugs, are there any questions?
<JontheEchidna> Continuing on...
<JontheEchidna> oh, wait
<JontheEchidna> QUESTION: what about bugs in old kde3 apps that won't get updates from upstream? (like kaffeine)
<JontheEchidna> Unfortunately we can't do much to get upstream to fix bugs in unmaintained apps
<JontheEchidna> If volunteers want to fix bugs, then by all means we do accept patches :)
<JontheEchidna> But, as the topic suggests, we don't really have the resources to fix all the bugs ourselves
<JontheEchidna> any more?
<JontheEchidna> I would like to note that if a KDE3 app such as Kaffiene *does* turn out to have a security bug or such, that we will provide patches for that for supported distros
<JontheEchidna> up until the support for that distro ends
<JontheEchidna> Hardy should have another year of security updates to ensure that Linux stays secure
<JontheEchidna> So, that's basically what we do to handle bugflow
<JontheEchidna> We always would like help, and not only with bugs
<JontheEchidna> If you are interested in helping everybody's favorite Debian-based KDE distro, we'd be glad to include you in our community
<JontheEchidna> you can find us in the #kubuntu-devel channel
<JontheEchidna> If you're interested in actually fixing bugs, that can be very simple too, once you gain experience
<JontheEchidna> In fact, Friday at 15:00 UTC there will be a session by Daniel Holbach about bugfixing
<JontheEchidna> "the thing with kaffeine is that the maintainer uploaded some patches to the svn but said that he won't release another old qt3 version, cause the qt4 port will get ready in time. and i was wondering if i might get one of the atsc scanning fixes in the current ubuntu package"
<JontheEchidna> This actually raises a very good point
<JontheEchidna> If you know patches that have been included in svn, please file bugs at Kubuntu about this!
<JontheEchidna> If somebody finds the time we'll gladly include patches coming from upstream
<JontheEchidna> although, I think we're still one minor version behind the latest kaffiene release... eheh
<JontheEchidna> If you'd like to help participate in updating patches, we're always looking for new packaging people too!
<JontheEchidna> We will train you in the secret art of BatPackaging!
<JontheEchidna> and maybe one day any one of your could be preparing packages for the newest KDE release
<JontheEchidna> <mtron_x86> thanks for the info. i thought that i need to get the patch in debian first
<JontheEchidna> This is handled by us actually
<JontheEchidna> At the beginning of each Ubuntu/Kubuntu cycle we merge our packaging with Debian
<JontheEchidna> we take changes that debian has made to their packages since their last merge
<JontheEchidna> and we also tell them what our changes have been, in case they want to include them too
<JontheEchidna> Anyway, if you'd like to participate in packaging or merging, you can always join in the fun at #kubuntu-devel
<JontheEchidna> This is also handy: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide/Complete
<JontheEchidna> Oh! I almost forgot to give out resources for forwarding bugs upstream!
<JontheEchidna> Unfortunately, due to limited manpower, we still have several dozen bug reports lying around that need to be forwarded upstream
<JontheEchidna> This is a handy tool to check which packages are in need of bugs being forwarded: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+upstreamreport
<JontheEchidna> and this is a list of most kde-specific bugs that need forwarded
<JontheEchidna> http://tinyurl.com/5b4nwo
<JontheEchidna> <Oxyhydrogen> QUESTION: whom would I have to talk to in #kubuntu-devel?
<JontheEchidna> Anybody really!
<JontheEchidna> Riddell, apachelogger (who is unsuspiciously absent), vorian, myself
<JontheEchidna> the great thing about kubuntu is the community in my opinion
<JontheEchidna> in fact, it was Nightrose who got me in to Kubuntu, by suggesting that I notify people about the problems I was seeing in the KDE4 edition of Hardy
<JontheEchidna> things sorta snowballed from there...
<JontheEchidna> <knome> QUESTION: Is apachelogger affiliated with the Apache project?
<JontheEchidna> I have no clue actually. If he wasn't so unsuspiciously missing you could ask him
<stdin> he's more of an Amarok guy
<JontheEchidna> Amaroklogger doesnt' quite roll off the tounge...
<JontheEchidna> :P
<JontheEchidna> <Oxyhydrogen> QUESTION: do a lot of you also work on KDE/Amarok/others?
<JontheEchidna> Several of us do, in fact.
<JontheEchidna> Smarter works upstream with KDE and hacks on accessibility apps
<JontheEchidna> Nightrose and apachelogger do a lot of work with amarok
<JontheEchidna> making packages for Kubuntu
<JontheEchidna> and Nightrose is actually an amarok team member
<JontheEchidna> Riddell contributes patches upstream when he's not too busy being the almighty Kubuntu robot
<JontheEchidna> I have started working with mornfall of the Adept project
<JontheEchidna> and we also have a few gnomies on our team :P
<JontheEchidna> Kubuntu really is a mixture of some of the best people in the Free-software world
<JontheEchidna> <knome> QUESTION: Do you cooperate with the Ubuntu/Xubuntu teams
<JontheEchidna> Good question too
<JontheEchidna> Recently NCommander has been contributing to Kubuntu. He's an Xubuntu dev too
<JontheEchidna> I haven't heard him complaining about what we do, so we must be doing something right :P
<JontheEchidna> I think our relations with Ubuntu could be better, but both sides will have to work at that
<JontheEchidna> <knome> QUESTION: What do you think about many people being unsatisfied with the new KDE4 desktop compared to the 3.x series?
<JontheEchidna> Now that is the million-$CURRENCY-question, now isn't it...
<JontheEchidna> Personally I think anybody who doesn't like KDE4 is a hater :P
 * knome coughs loudly
<JontheEchidna> nah, some people have valid reasons for not likign KDE4
<JontheEchidna> People are creatures of habit
<JontheEchidna> and even though the KDE team has done a great accomplishment rewriting as much of KDE as they have done in 8 months (they have done most of it) I recognize that it's not all there yet
<JontheEchidna> but at the same time I recognize that things will get better
<JontheEchidna> in addition, we'll also see things in KDE4 that we never coudl have seen in KDE3
<JontheEchidna> <Oxyhydrogen> QUESTION: what was the overall reaction to Kubuntu 8.10?
<JontheEchidna> I'd like to think that the overall reaction is good
<JontheEchidna> You do have a very vocal minority that frequents such places as dot.kde.org
<JontheEchidna> where the announcement thread turned into a 300-post complaint about KDE4 not being ready
<JontheEchidna> but I've also heard very positive things about Kubuntu 8.10 even from people who thought they wouldn't like it
<JontheEchidna> <knome> QUESTION: Are you going to offer something shiny with the next Kubuntu release and try to make new users or to make KDE4 more stable and maybe suitable for the people who stopped using Kubuntu again?
<JontheEchidna> I'd say... both!
<JontheEchidna> The next KDE4 release itself is going to come with many shiny things
<JontheEchidna> Desktop cube effect
<JontheEchidna> panel autohiding
<JontheEchidna> and lots of neat polished features and enhancements
<JontheEchidna> but at the same time we'd like to emphasis on stability
<JontheEchidna> which is what this whole session is about, really
<JontheEchidna> we're running out of time, so the next question is the last
<JontheEchidna> <xjazz> QUESTION: what do you plan to realize in 9.04?
<JontheEchidna> This is a rought draft of things we're going to discuss as possible features for 9.04: https://wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuUDSJauntySpecs
<JontheEchidna> I must emphasize that not all of those features will be pursued
<JontheEchidna> but this is a wishlist the devs have put together for discussion at the developers summit
<JontheEchidna> Next up we have Jorge Castro with his session "Upstreaming bugs"
<jcastro> thanks JontheEchidna!
<JontheEchidna> I'll be happy to answer further questions in #kubuntu
<JontheEchidna> ...to a degree though :P
 * Oxyhydrogen applauds
<JontheEchidna> ^_^
 * rgreening cheers
* jcastro changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Current Session: Upstreaming Bugs  | Welcome to Openweek, questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat please || Session details here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
<jcastro> ok I will start in about ~2 minutes
<jcastro> ok, thanks everyone for coming, my name is Jorge Castro and for the next hour I will be talking about upstreaming bugs
<jcastro> Hopefully if you're at this session you've attended bdmurray and pedro's talks about bugs
<jcastro> but if not hopefully you can get something out of this session anyway. :D
<jcastro> So what exactly do I mean by upstreaming bugs?
<jcastro> First off, what we ship as "Ubuntu" contains a bunch of software written by other open source projects
<jcastro> this can be large projects like linux, GNOME, KDE, X.org, and others
<jcastro> but also includes smaller projects that you might not have heard of before
<jcastro> Ubuntu fits into the picture by bundling this software and shipping it as a distribution every 6 months
<jcastro> As such it is up to us to make sure that when our users report bugs that the bug report makes its way to the right developer so that they can address it.
<jcastro> We do this in our bug tracker, launchpad, which has the ability to link Ubuntu bugs with upstream bug trackers.
<jcastro> So in this session I will go over some workflows on how to do this efficiently, and give you some examples of ideal bugs that we've forwarded.
<jcastro> Any questions so far?
<jcastro> (Please ask in #ubuntu-classroom-chat)
<jcastro> Ok, moving on ...
<jcastro> For what I call the "top100 projects" in ubuntu, we generate a chart that shows us how well we're linking bugs
<jcastro> in this instance it's the "top100 projects sorted by open bugs"
<jcastro> we make this chart available here: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+upstreamreport
<jcastro> We call this the "upstream report"
<jcastro> what this report allows us to do is to glance at a large cross section of the distro to see how well we're doing overall, and more importantly, to find out where we need to improve
<jcastro> So everyone if you would, click that link so you can follow along
<jcastro> So let's look at an example
<jcastro> I will just pick openoffice.org, which is the third row down
<jcastro> As you can see, right now there are 523 open bugs in openoffice.org in Ubuntu
<jcastro> that means that right now there are 523 possible defects that need to be addressed.
<jcastro> Of these, 364 are in a triaged state, which means that a developer has looked at it and has determined that it is indeed a bug.
<jcastro> The upstream column is where it gets interesting
<jcastro> That number is 338.
<jcastro> That means that out of those 523 bugs reported, a developer has determined that 338 of them are bugs in OpenOffice itself
<Israphel> http://img530.imageshack.us/img530/3820/pascii6.png
<jcastro> of those 338, 315 have a bug link in launchpad to the openoffice bug tracker
<jcastro> this means that we have a 93.20% linkage rate
<jcastro> which is very good (we always want to be over 90%)
<jcastro> so basically, when a developer determines that a bug is upstream, they open an upstream task in ubuntu, which then shows up in the upstream column
<jcastro> then it's up to bug people like us to make sure that these bugs get linked upstream, which I will show you in a minute
<jcastro> So, what really you need to be concerned about is the last column
<jcastro> these are bugs that a developer has deemed to be "upstreamable"
<jcastro> but has NOT been linked to an upstream bug report
<jcastro> as an example, if you scroll down to "kdebase"
<jcastro> you'll see that the last column is a 12.
<jcastro> click on the 12
<jcastro> and it takes you to this list: https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/kdebase/+bugs?search=Search&field.status_upstream=pending_bugwatch
<jcastro> So these 12 bugs are something that kubuntu developers and QA people have determined to be an upstream issue
<jcastro> so let's take a look at one
<jcastro> please click on bug 172682
<jcastro> which takes you here: https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/kdebase/+bug/172682
<ubot5`> Launchpad bug 172682 in kdebase "Dolphin cannot open a tar file on a smb share" [Wishlist,Confirmed]
<jcastro> So, as you read the bug report you will find where Jonathan says: "The best bet for getting this feature is to file a wishlist report at http://bugs.kde.org. If you (or anybody) files a wishlist it would also be handy to link the report here or at least post the link to the wishlist in the comments."
<jcastro> So ideally, you would go to the KDE  bugtracker
<jcastro> and then first search to see if a bug is already filed.
<jcastro> If it is, you would get the url to that bug, click "Also affects project" and paste the bug url in there
<jcastro> at that point launchpad will make a bug watch to monitor the bug
<jcastro> if in the future the bug is fixed the bug watch will reflect that
<jcastro> And at that point the bug is considered fixed upstream, but NOT yet in ubuntu
<jcastro> at that point the bug would show up in the harvest tool so a developer can look at it
<jcastro> I have an example of this just from today
<jcastro> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/brasero/+bug/292201
<ubot5`> Launchpad bug 292201 in brasero "brasero don't add files to data project by drag and drop" [Low,Fix committed]
<jcastro> So this bug was reported on november 1st.
<jcastro> at one point Pedro decided that this was a bug in brasero itself, not in anything that we've done in Ubuntu
<jcastro> so he filed a bug in the upstream GNOME bugzilla
<jcastro> then he pasted the link in a comment, clicked "Also affects project" and pasted the GNOME bugzilla URL in there
<jcastro> if you look at the top of the bug report you will see that it lists "gnome-bugs #559173"
<jcastro> If you click on that you can go see the report in the GNOME bugzilla
<jcastro> If you see Pedro's report here: http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=559173
<ubot5`> Gnome bug 559173 in general "brasero don't add files to data project by drag and drop" [Normal,Resolved: fixed]
<jcastro> you will see that he also put a link to the launchpad bug in that report
<jcastro> so if you check both pages you'll see this workflow
<jcastro> reporter -> pedro -> brasero developer
<jcastro> Basically pedro is being a link between an ubuntu user and a GNOME developer
<jcastro> the great thing is, anyone can be this link!
<jcastro> so what I tell people is to pick a small project to start off with
<jcastro> something you want to care about
<jcastro> and then go through it's bugs in ubuntu, and search for those bugs in the upstream bug tracker
<jcastro> and then make the link in launchpad and in the upstream bug tracker
<jcastro> This helps get information to upstream developers faster
<jcastro> and ultimately will help get fixes out to the user faster, which is what it's all about
<jcastro> QUESTION: when clicking on Also affects project, the form asks for a project name, do we just paste the bug url anyway?
<jcastro> Sometimes some information for a certain package is not filled out properly in launchpad
<jcastro> It won't let you paste a url into that field
<jcastro> what I do is fill in the project name, hit search, then click on the title, and then it will fix that project and allow you to put a URL in
<rick_h_> QUESTION: will the status for the gnome-bugs link in launchpad automatically update?
<jcastro> thanks rick_h_
<jcastro> Yes
<jcastro> in that brasero example it has not updated yet, which is why it's unknown
<rick_h_> QUESTION: How do you find out if the bug really also affects upstream and is not ubuntu-related?
<jcastro> We use a tool called harvest as a "radar" that shows us when something is fixed upstream
<jcastro> That is a tough question, probably the crux of the matter
<jcastro> If you use the last column in the report and look at those bugs
<jcastro> those will already be determined to be upstream, so you're safe to look at those and make linkages
<jcastro> with some bugs it's easy
<jcastro> usually if it's a feature request or a wishlist it's very much an upstream bug
<jcastro> so "I wish firefox did this and that" is probably an upstream bug
<jcastro> "firefox crashing" would be a harder one to solve
<jcastro> which is why you should consult people in #ubuntu-bugs or the corresponding team for that package
<jcastro> still, there are plenty of bugs in the last column that you can link that are already determined to be upstream
<jcastro> so there's no shortage there
<jcastro> The way I do it is just work off the last columns, and let smarter people make the decision on wether it's upstream or not. :D
<jcastro> < homy> sorry, I don't understand that "last column" jcastro talks about.
<jcastro> ok no problem
<rick_h_> jcastro: can you post the list to the page with the "last column" again?
<jcastro> https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+upstreamreport
<jcastro> that last column on the upstream report
<jcastro> That is the list of bugs I look at
<jcastro> Ok, so how does this all tie together?
<jcastro> When a bug watch shows that a bug is fixed upstream it shows up in Harvest
<jcastro> the harvest page for brasero looks like this: http://daniel.holba.ch/harvest/handler.py?pkg=brasero
<jcastro> so basically, in the past 2 months there have been 6 watches that have been shown as fixed
<jcastro> the reason we have this harvest page
<jcastro> is that an ubuntu developer can check on each of those bugs, find the fix, and fix the package in ubuntu
<jcastro> so basically, I see it this way
<jcastro> if you make links to upstream trackers, as those get fixed, they start to show up on harvest
<jcastro> we basically are what I call "feeding the harvest machine"
<jcastro> from there ubuntu developers have a nice little list of possible fixes that they can look at to fix the packages in ubuntu
<jcastro> so really, if you know how to search for bugs in launchpad and  bugzilla
<jcastro> just making the link between the two can really help developers find the right fixes
<jcastro> while I am at it, I did a blog post on how this all works here:
<jcastro> http://stompbox.typepad.com/blog/2008/09/introducing-the.html
<jcastro> that has screenshots and examples as well
<jcastro> So if you're lost right now you can refer to that document and the logs from this session
<jcastro> < homy> ah, I think I understood: when I click on the "40" in the firefox-3.0 column for example, I get all upstreamable firefox-3.0 bugs  that don't have an upstream bug report yet?
<jcastro> yes! correct!
<jcastro> Now
<jcastro> the upstream report is a great tool for finding possible upstream targets
<jcastro> but like all tools, you can use it to cause havok as well
<jcastro> so just because you see 40 bugs doesn't mean you should go open up 40 bugs in firefox's bug tracker and paste in everything
<jcastro> Instead you should use it as a guide to get started with
<jcastro> You don't want to be in a vacuum forwarding these bugs without working with someone
<jcastro> so for example for these bugs I would look at them
<jcastro> determine which ones would be easy low hanging fruit
<jcastro> then I would post on the ubuntu-mozilla mailing list or ask someone in the irc channel
<jcastro> something like "I am interested in helping triage bugs upstream, I am looking at this list here, any thoughts?"
<jcastro> or something like that
<jcastro> at which point someone on the team would give you some advice or tell you what to do or point you to more information
<jcastro> It is important to tell someone in a team that you are looking at those bugs
<jcastro> for example the desktop team does a great job of doing linkages, they have their little way to handle upstreaming bugs
<jcastro> so I try not to touch them unless it is obvious that I can do it
<jcastro> even then, sometimes I make a mistake and link the wrong bug
<jcastro> at which case someone will tell you it's a mistake and then fix it
<jcastro> Any more questions so far?
<jcastro> ok so more tips
<jcastro> So it's obvious that bugs filed under "linux" are far and away the most open bugs.
<jcastro> These are tough because in a lot of cases they are hardware specific
<jcastro> and not very easy to track down
<jcastro> so in the case of kernel bugs you'll definately want to work with the kernel team on that
<jcastro> Sometimes you look at an ubuntu bug
<jcastro> and then you find a bug in the upstream project that might be similar
<jcastro> but you might not know
<jcastro> there is absolutely nothing wrong with posting a comment asking "Is this the same bug as this one?"
<jcastro> I'm sure many of you have seen these kinds of comments
<jcastro> it's basically people who /think/ they might have found the same bug, but aren't sure, so they're asking for help from someone who might know
<jcastro> there's nothing wrong with that of course!
<jcastro> Ok, so the last thing before I open it up to more  questions
<jcastro> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+upstreamreport
<jcastro> If you scroll to the very bottom
<jcastro> you'll see a total for the top100 projects
<jcastro> the two that I look at is the percentage of bugs that are determined to be upstreamed, and the amount of linkages
<jcastro> those numbers are 20.12% and 93.68%
<jcastro> this tells us that out of all the  bugs we have reported
<jcastro> 20% are determined to be upstreamed
<jcastro> and of those, 93.68% are linked
<jcastro> The 93% tells us that when we do find that a bug is upstreamable, that we do a great job at making that link
<jcastro> that's people out there finding the bug in an upstream tracker and linking it in launchpad.
<jcastro> I am interested in growing the first number.
<jcastro> The more we determine that bugs are upstream the larger our targets for linkages become
<jcastro> One last example
<jcastro> look at virt-manager in this chart
<jcastro> it's red for a reason. :D
<jcastro> Out of 21 possible bugs that can be upstreamed, 0 have been reported to the virt-manager developers
<jcastro> that's where we can help out to get those bugs to the right people.
<jcastro> More questions?
<jcastro> Ok well, I realized I chatted a bunch and it's a lot to swallow
<jcastro> but hopefully you will be able to use the report to find bugs that can be linked
<jcastro> if anyone has any feedback or questions on forwarding reports, please let me know
<jcastro> I am always on irc and can be reached via jorge@ubuntu.com
<jcastro> So uh ... smoke if you got 'em!
<charlie-tca> ty, Great job on this!
<ghindo> jcastro: Yes, thank you!
<jcastro> Next up will be nand with Brainstorm Q and A! (I suspect this session will be popular!)
<jcastro> in about ~12 minutes
<jcastro> QUESTION: Are you planning to extend the "upstreamed" list for more packages?
<jcastro> yes
<jcastro> currently we went for the top100 by open bugs because that covers a huge area
<jcastro> eventually you'll be able to just ask for a package
<jcastro> and get all that info
<JontheEchidna> in fact I think that the top 100 packages constitute about half of all open bugs in Launchpad
<jcastro> yes
<jcastro> I got another question
<jcastro> let me paste it
<jcastro> "Hi I got a question. You said that one should not touch all bugs for a package in one go for example. I did not get the reason  behind this and my other question is what can be done to increase the reporting in upstream trackers both automagicaly and\or  with human labour do you think?"
<jcastro> ok, so the reason we don't do this automatically is that we depend on your human brain to do a common sense thing
<jcastro> sometimes the bug might be incorrectly marked as upstream
<jcastro> or sometimes a developer won't mark a bug as upstreamed until he/she gets more information
<jcastro> what we don't want is to flood upstream bug trackers with bad bugs
<jcastro> ideally when an upstream gets a link from us in their bug tracker they should (hopefully) think "Ah, another one of those ubuntu studs with a rocking bug report"
<jcastro> This is why it's important to ask someone in a team working on that package for guidance
<jcastro> Because as it turns out, if you're forwarding bad bugs upstream that shouldn't be, you end up doubling the work for the ubuntu developer, the upstream developer, and probably everyone subscribed to the bug
<JontheEchidna> they especially don't like it when it turns out to be an ubuntu bug :P
<jcastro> So it's important that you try to do the  right thing
<jcastro> instead of fast-fooding a bunch of bad bugs
<jcastro> that being said, if you make a mistake, just fix it and move on
<jcastro> I mislinked a bug this morning and found out right away that I had made a mistake. :D
<jcastro> Question: So what can we do to make it more effective_
<jcastro> So really alot of this is experience
<jcastro> I recommened participating in hug days
<jcastro> where you can join a channel and during that entire day you are focused on one package
<jcastro> our bugmaster and QA people are around for these
<jcastro> so those are the days to ask questions and pick their brains
<jcastro> after a while you will just start to get good at it, like any skill
<jcastro> ok so I am out of time, thanks everyone
 * c00l2sv help
<jcastro> nand: you're up in 2 minutes!
 * c00l2sv nu are nimeni chef sÄ ajute un pic la traducerea WordPress-ului (300 de stringuri au mai rÄmas!)
* jcastro changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Current Session: Ubuntu Brainstorm Q+A | Welcome to Openweek, questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat please || Session details here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
<nand> ok!
 * c00l2sv http://tradu.softwareliber.ro
<nand> ok ok, so now's Ubuntu Brainstorm time
<nand> hmm
<nand> ok let's start with what is Ubuntu Brainstorm
<nand> or rather
<nand> what is its use
<nand> I guess you all have ideas on how Ubuntu could be improved
<nand> even lots lots lots of ideas
<nand> but the thing is, your ideas are subjective to your relation to your computer, of what you're doing
<Israphel> charla de kubuntu arranca en dos horas
<nand> your requests may be not as important for others
<mttr> how do we start on this.
<nand> so basically it is not easy to grasp what are the main requests out there. Some people can be very vocal about something, but they may represent a tiny portion of the userbase
<nand> so Ubuntu Brainstorm is a place where you can post your ideas, and vote on the ones you agree on
<mttr> This week cut and past between programs such as vector graphics from inkscape to openoffice.
<nand> and the voting system makes it easy to assess what is the most asked
<nand> mttr: please discuss on #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<mttr> ok thanks
<nand> ok so we can see what the most asked, and that will be taken into account during the next Ubuntu Developer Summit, where the planning is laid out
<nand> so that we can maximize the awesomeness factor of Ubuntu
<nand> for people who didn't quite follow what's going on on Brainstorm, you can fetch a summary I wrote : http://www.ndeschildre.net/downloads/UbuntuBrainstorm810Report.html
<nand> Ok
<nand> Now, Ubuntu Brainstorm is far from perfect
<nand> it is an experiment : besides Dell's Ideastorm, this has never been used on this scale
<nand> so things are not perfect . Often ideas are duplicates of others, ideas are not well formed
<nand> we are open to critics
<nand> A new version of Ubuntu Brainstorm will come Soon (c) which will try to fix some of these issues
<nand> You can see a preview here: http://devel.ideatorrent.org/
<Israphel> :)
<nand> The main improvments are Idea and Solution separation, to force users to structure their ideas
<nand> and more moderator tools, including a brand new moderator team (23 people so far!)
<nand> ok... any question so far?
<nand> QUESTION: what happens to our old ideas with the new system?
<nand> they will be of course transfered to the new system. But as there was no idea/solution separation, there will be a "fake" solution
<nand> See for example : http://devel.ideatorrent.org/idea/14433/
<nand> From now on, you will be able to post several solution to one idea
<nand> and the voting will occur on a per-solution basis
<nand> Part of the job of the new moderators will be to separate the rationale from the solution to make some clean ideas
<nand> ok, so let's continue with moderators
<nand> Being a moderator on Ubuntu Brainstorm is a hard work
<nand> because until recently we were a very few
<nand> and we gets dozens of duplicate reports every day
<nand> (So far, almost 4000 ideas have been marked as dup!!)
<nand> and marking as duplicate is not an easy task
<nand> as it looks
<nand> you have to read fully and understand both ideas, and make a decision, sometimes hard
<nand> that's why, this plus the limited number of moderators, there was unfortunately some ideas incorrectly marked as dup
<nand> but behooold!
<nand> things will change soon
<nand> once the new version is out
<nand> anyone will be able to join the Ubuntu Brainstorm moderator team to give an hand!
<nand> the team: https://launchpad.net/~brainstorm-moderators
<nand> and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Brainstorm/BrainstormModerators
<nand> there will be two level of moderators
<nand> 1) Idea Reviewer : anyone can become one, and your job will be to review incoming ideas
<nand> Ooooops
<nand> I happen to have forgot another new fanstastic feature :)
<nand> http://devel.ideatorrent.org/ideas_in_preparation/
<nand> You may have noticed this "Idea sandbox"
<nand> Now, when an idea will be submitted, it will have to be reviewed by 2 moderators, for some very basic guidelines
<nand> See more explanations here: http://devel.ideatorrent.org/faq/#question14
<nand> In summary, moderators will check you are not posting a dup, a bug report, and check that your idea is precise (no more "Make Ubuntu Faster"), and with some kind of realistic solution
<nand> so
<nand> 1) Idea Reviewer : anyone can become one, see explanation on https://launchpad.net/~brainstorm-moderators
<nand> the job will be to review incoming ideas, discuss with the author to add more details, and so one
<nand> and once you did a great job for some time, you can become a:
<nand> 2) Moderator : who can virtually do anything
<nand> To summarize, being a moderator, you can:
<nand> - Review incoming ideas
<nand> - Mark ideas as duplicates
<nand> - Separate rationale and solution from imported ideas from Brainstorm v1
<nand> The main goal being
<nand> *Making Ubuntu Brainstorm clean and exploitable*
<nand> because anyone do not expect to spend hours through bad ideas
<nand> ok, some more questions?
<nand> QUESTION: as an idea reviewer, is your task only approving/declining idea's, or does one have to write a reason?
<nand> as an idea reviewer, you can just approve, or discuss with the author to help him improve his idea
<nand> ultimately, if the idea is not one, or the author do not correct it, you can mark it as "not an idea", or "already implemented" (another kind of bad idea)
<nand> Ah, and if you want to see what to expect
<nand> you can just log in using the test accounts here : http://demo.ideatorrent.org/
<nand> you will see what are the moderators tools for each kind of roles (moderator, admin, idea reviewer ,....)
<nand> I recommend you to check that!
<nand> QUESTION: have any other projects (e.g. gnome, firefox, etc) expressed an interest in using ideatorrent?
<nand> I have seen some interests in mailing lists/forums, but so far, no project have actually started using it (besides blender using an old customized version of it)
<nand> the weird thing is, I get more requests from corporate companies (Stockholm airport is going to launch its ideatorrent soon, and another *BIG* name too) than from open source projects!
<nand> QUESTION: what *big* company in particular?
<nand> sssshh, that's a secret!
<nand> I guess you'll know quite soon
<Joey1234> Go Sweden ! sorry could not help myself:-)
<nand> QUESTION: The current models for determining what's "popular" seem really really bad - an idea with 100 up votes and 0 down votes is considered less popular than an idea with 1101 up votes and 1000 down votes, simply because more people have voted on the latter.  The current hack to this is to count ideas as less popular as more time elapses in a weird hyperbolic fashion (divide by number of days).  Why not just move to
 * nand is waiting for the end of the question :)
<Israphel> what a question
<nand> anyway, starting with the start of the question
<nand> I often get this remark
<nand> but if you look closely at http://devel.ideatorrent.org/, you'll see that you can now see the proportion of +1, -1, +0 votes
<nand> and that, when an idea has > 100 votes, the proportion is more or less always identical : 80 to 95 percent of +1
<nand> See for examaple : http://devel.ideatorrent.org/idea/14433/
<nand> The green and red bar just under the number of votes
<nand> 419 promotions / 31 demotions
<nand> (in the tooltip)
<nand> so in conclusion,
<nand> and that answers: QUESTION:  Why not just move to a "percentage upvote" model after some 100-vote grace period?
<nand> looking at stats I have, this would not be a good model
<nand> but I'm still open to discussion on better improved models to order ideas
<nand> QUESTION: Even if it's often "90% up votes" surely there's meaning in lowering one that's only 85% or the occasional one that's worse than that?
<nand> I quite don't get the question...
<nand> QUESTION: I'm especially worried about overlooked ideas.  An idea might be very very good, but few people understand it (and thus don't vote on it), meaning you won't see it in that "popular" listing even when it gets >90% approval
<nand> hmm, I think you misunderstand the current "popular" algorithm
<nand> the current "popular" idea algorithm is quite simple : it is ordering based on (number of votes) divided by (time since creation)
<nand> or more precisely, by the number of votes per unit of time
<nand> so you could even see negative ideas on the popular listings, if you go at the end of the list
<nand> ok, still a little time...
<nand> so if you're interested about Brainstorm and moderation, you can go to #ubuntu-brainstorm, or discuss on the mailing list here: https://launchpad.net/~brainstorm-moderators
<nand> QUESTION: when will brainstorm.ubuntu.com actually *use* ideatorrent?
<nand> well
<nand> hrm
<nand> hmm
<nand> hopefully within the month. But don't take that as a promise!
<nand> (and note that brainstorm.ubuntu.com IS using ideatorrent. It just got some major changes!)
<nand> QUESTION: so if an idea from the sandbox gets approved by 2 reviewers it will get to the popular ideas?
<nand> yes.
<lordnoid>  An approved idea doesn't neccesarily have to be popular..
<nand> "Popular ideas" is kind of not the real good name, I agree, but it's better than "approved ideas"
<nand> let's say I put that in lack of a better name :)
<nand> QUESTION:  ideatorrent is just a new drupal theme? or something more?
<nand> Ideatorrent is a Drupal module (open source of course)
<nand> you can download it at http://www.ideatorrent.org
<Israphel> :)
<nand> 10 mn left...
<nand> go go go questions!
 * nand just realize http://www.blenderstorm.org is actually quite used, 700+ ideas so far
<nand> QUESTION: how will you make approved, but not-popular idea's visible?
<nand> well, first new non-popular yet ideas will appear on the "latest ideas", "most popular these 24H" lists, where most of the initial voting goes
<nand> then, if it is quite popular, it will go on "most popular this week" and get more votes
<nand> then, if it is quite popular, it will go on "most popular this month" and get more votes
<nand> then, if it is quite popular, it will go on "most popular this 6 months" and get more votes
<nand> and so on :)
<nand> that's the current classic behavior
<nand> plus some cheaters are using digg.com to help themselves :)
<nand> Quite a lot of ideas are digged
<nand> and some of them reached the digg popular state
<nand> QUESTION: how much ideas implements from Brainstorm?
<nand> Concerning Intrepid only, that's 18 : http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/implemented_ideas/
<nand> but note that quite a few of them, we missed and are still in the "New" state, because of lack of moderators!
<nand> QUESTION: Why are you calling drawing attention to an idea with Digg "cheating" -- it seems like it would only give something more votes total, not necessarily more upvotes
<nand> it was just a joke :)
<nand> I encourage all possible external websites to add more votes to the current 1.3 million of them!
<nand> and you can promote your ideas using the images links on your blog e.g. http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/10701/promote/
<nand> Question: Is there an widget\applet\gadget to subscribe to new apporved ideas with an voting mechanism directly from the desktop?
<nand> That could be an interesting thing to look at. You will be able to suscribe to a RSS feed, but I haven't looked at the voting question yet...
<nand> ok ok, 3 minutes before some Virtualization talk!
<nand> ok then thanks all for your interest, I'm hoping to see you soon to discuss moderation and join our awesome big brand new moderation team!
<gQuigs> thank you nand!
<soren> o/
<soren> Hi, everyone.
<soren> Welcome to the obligatory virtualisation talk.
<soren> It wouldn't be Ubuntu OpenWeek without it, would it?
* jcastro changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Current Session: Virtualisation | Welcome to Openweek, questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat please || Session details here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
<soren> I have to say this session is as much for my sake as it is for yours. I'm hoping to get some good feedback from you about how you're using it and what your problems are.
<soren> Or perhaps even better: Some input on why you're not using virtualisation. That would be interesting.
<soren> So, to kick things off.
<soren> ..
<soren> New stuff in Intrepid:
<soren> Intrepid didn't see huge, world changing updates in the basic virtualisation stack.
<soren> The virtualisation stack in my mind consists of:
<soren> kvm
<soren> libvirt
<soren> virt-manager
<soren> virtinst
<soren> They all got updated to more recent upstream versions, which gave us a few new features, such as fully swappable kvm guests and a few other tidbits.
<soren> In intrepid, we also completely rewrote our vm builder.
<soren> If you're not familiar with vmbuilder, it's basically a tool that will create a virtual machine for you in a fraction of the time it would take you to complete a regular install.
<soren> If we have time at the end of this session, I can do a demonstration.
<soren> Just shoot questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat when you have them, by the way. Don't wait until the end.
<soren> In case you're just tuning into the whole virtualisation buzz, let me explain a bit about what it's good for.
<soren> Actually, virtualisation comes in many shapes and varieties. We've chosen to focus on what is called full virtualisation, which is what kvm provides.
<soren> kvm is a piece of software that runs on your regular system, but looks like a completely separate computer. You can install any operating system in it you like. Windows, other Linux distros, other versions of Ubuntu.
<soren> Anything that you can do to a regular PC, you can do to one created by kvm.
<soren> This is by far the most versatile form of virtualisation.
<soren> If you're a developer, you can set up other operating systems to test interoperability between different things...
<soren> ...you can have other versions of Ubuntu running in it to see if a bug you found is a regression from an older version of Ubuntu..
<soren> ..or even check if a bug has been fixed in a later version.
<soren> You can use it as a "clean room" for doing various tests that might hose your system.
<soren> Or you can use it in production environments to keep services separate.
<soren> The sky is the limit!
<soren> 21:08:33 < ~MadsRH> soren -> The vmbuilder is setup in the terminal? Are there any plans for a GUI?
<soren> VMBuilder is really a library, but also comes with a command line tool to use it.
<soren> ..this is what most people will use.
<soren> However, it was designed to be a library so that it could be easily embedded into other Python projects.
<soren> Perhaps virtinst could use VMBuilder as an alternative form of OS installation.
<soren> ...or it could be exposed directly in virt-manager.
<soren> ...or a web frontend could be used to build VM's.
<soren> Anything is possible. All we need are ideas and code monkeys :)
<soren> 21:11:22 < knome> QUESTION: How effienct kvm is compared to, let's say, VMWare?
<soren> At the risk of offending people who've worked on either side optimizing particular things in each of them, I'd say they're roughly comparable.
<soren> With a twist, though:
<soren> kvm - as you may know - only runs on newer hardware, which has virtualisation features built into the CPU. VMWare runs on any PC.
<soren> If you run VMWare on a PC without virtualisation extensions, I'm quite sure kvm will outperform it somewhat. This is due to the nature of that type of virtualisation.
<soren> VMWare can take advantage of those extensions, too, though, so on the same hardware, they'll be on par.
<soren> 21:06:36 < YokoZar> QUESTION: I'm interested in shipping a VM appliance for using an application with a graphical interface.  It's very easy to do a minimal  VM-based installation using the Ubuntu-server CD, but it's not at all clear to me how I get a minimal desktop suitable for a VM appliance.
<soren>  Installing the Ubuntu-destop package, for instance, will install all manner of video drivers that arean't needed.
<soren> For starters, a VM appliance (or virtual appliance) is a virtual machine that you distribute to clients or customers that performs a  single task.
<soren> The idea is that you preconfigure it to do a few things really well, and usually wrap it all up in a fancy wrapping.
<soren> A colleague of mine has written a HOWTO about creating such an appliance.
<soren> ...it even ended up in Linux Mag: http://www.linux-mag.com/id/4829
<soren> It's an area where we still have a lot of work to do. it could certainly do with a better frontend for deployment..
<soren> ..such as setting it up in the end user's network, perhaps hooking it into whatever other services it needs to interact with, etc. etc.
<soren> If anyone has the time to work on something like that, please do get in touch.
<soren> 21:07:29 < alexharrington> QUESTION: What does "fully swappable" mean in relation to a kvm guest?
<soren> Not too long ago, if you had a kvm guest running that used 2 GB of memory, those 2 GB of RAM on the host was stuck in RAM and couldn't be swapped out to disk.
<soren> This is no longer true.
<soren> This is actually the primary reason the /dev/kvm device wasn't open to everyone.
<soren> Anyone with access to that device could pin all your RAM, which was rather unfortunate.
<soren> 21:12:29 < YokoZar> QUESTION: So, is there going to be support for a "minimal desktop" sort of VM appliance sometime?  Like another package seed?
<soren> I don't really think a graphical environment in an appliance is something we want to put a lot of effort into.
<soren> I'm much more inclined to go the way of your garden variety router which has a web interface for configuring everything.
<soren> Graphical environments are just a hassle :)
<soren> 21:13:13 < Zizou> Question: which is the adventaje in kernel based virtualisation comparing to software virtualisation?
<soren> I'm not entirely sure what you mean by software virtualisation.. If you mean full virtualisation, but done entirely in software, like qemu does it, the main advantage is speed.
<soren> Emulation is a slow, slow process.
<soren> If you're thinking more along the lines of jails or containers, the main advantage is versatility.
<soren> You can't run Windows in a jail or a container. You need something the pretends to be a complete PC so that Windows doesn't get all confused. :)
<soren> 21:13:37 < Israphel> QUESTION: in the setup of my mother there's a virtualization option to enable, should I enable it?
<soren> It all depends.
<soren> Perhaps your mom needs to run a few Windows apps even though she has switched to Ubuntu. Instead of going the way of dual booting, you could enable virtualisation on her machine, set her up with kvm and virt-manager and have her run those last few windows apps inside kvm.
<soren> A few years from now, I think we're going to see much more widespread use for virtualisation. In fact, by then it's likely that you'll be using it without even knowing it.
<soren> 21:14:19 < zul> QUESTION: what features does the vmbuilder rewrite has?
<soren> The new VMBuilder features an extensive plugin system.
<soren> This makes it much, much easier to add support for other distros and hypervisors, and even to add entirely new functionality.
<soren> All the libvirt integration it does is contained in a plugin by itself, for instance.
<soren> It's also a lot more friendly to watch, and it's simply much more flexible in many,  many ways.
<soren> 21:14:31 < nealmcb> QUESTION: So just how fast is vm-builder, anyway :)
<soren> I forget the most recent benchmarks I've done, but under optimal conditions, I'm certain it can create a virtual machine in around a minute, probably less.
<soren> I have a few optimisations in my back pocketet that should shave off an additional 5-10 seconds from that benchmark.
<soren> 21:14:35 < ~Mauricio> QUESTION: KVM is installed for default into Ubuntu?
<soren> It's not installed by default, no. It's just a simple apt-get away, though :)
<soren> 21:21:28 < ~johnsgruber> QUESTION: Is there an easy way to tell whether my computer has virtualization extensions?
<soren> An almost sure way to tell is to run this command:
<soren> egrep '^flags.*(vmx|svm)' /proc/cpuinfo
<soren> If that gives you any output, your cpu has the right extensions. It might still need to be enabled in the BIOS, but installing kvm will attempt to run, and should detect if that is the case.
<soren> QUESTION: Regarding the minimal desktop, what about people who are using something like vmware on their desktop to test things?  It seems  like a lot of people try out Ubuntu this way, and it'd be nice to have it snappier there.
<soren> I'm not sure I understand this use case? Are we still talking about appliances?
<soren> 21:30:31 < alexharrington> QUESTION: Does/will kvm support direct access to specific host hardware - eg a TV tuner
<soren> Not right now, but it will come.
<soren> 21:31:52 < YokoZar> QUESTION: I hate to ask, but any interest in a graphical front-end to vmbuilder?
<soren> I think my money is on the web frontend.
<soren> That way, we can distribute the webified version of it as a vm, and people can run it on their windows systems or fedora systems or whatever and create even more Ubuntu based virtual machines in a snap.
<soren> Now, if you want to try out kvm, what you should do is install a metapackage we've created for it..
 * soren tries to find it..
<soren> ubuntu-virt-mgmt
<soren> Start by installing that: sudo apt-get install ubuntu-virt-mgmt
<soren> Oh, and ubuntu-virt-server, too.
<soren> Same deal: sudo apt-get install ubuntu-virt-server
<soren> When that's done, you have virt-manager, which is the graphical frontend for (among other things) kvm.
<soren> You have libvirt, which is a handy wrapper and management library for kvm, Xen, openvz, etc.
<soren> You have kvm which is the core "hypervisor".
<soren> And you have a few other things that comes along with these packages.
<soren> First, you want to add yourself to the libvirtd group.
<soren> The short explanation is that it allows you to do stuff with your network config that you *really* don't want to be without.
<soren> As with any other new group membership, you need to log out and log back in to make it take effect.
<soren> If you don't want to do that right now, that's fine.
<soren> Just do it later. You'll be thankful :)
<soren> Fire up virt-manager, and you should see an overview screen.
<soren> Virt-manager, IIRC, is in the Applications->System menu.
<soren> 21:41:13 < maluta> QUESTION: Xen has any future in newer versions os Ubuntu?
<soren> Xen has finally started to slowly trickle into the upstream vanilla kernels.
<soren> We're obviously not going to actively keep it away from our kernels then :D
<soren> ...so in fact, the server kernel runs as a Xen domU without any modifications.
<soren> Later versions will probably work as a dom0, when that lands upstream.
<soren> I don't know when that's likely to happen, though.
<soren> We'll probably not spend a whole lot of time on Xen going forward, though. We chose to focus on kvm a while ago, and we're quite happy with that decision.
<soren> 21:42:23 < ~toobuntu> QUESTION: With ubuntu-vm-builder, we had to --addpkg foo --addpkg bar, listing every pkg separately.  Does the python rewrite accept  multiple pkgs in a comma separated list or something a little simpler?
<soren> I believe that's still the same. I've never considered this a problem, really.
<soren> For me, I usually only install one or two extra packages.
<soren> The way I've set up my production environment (I host a bunch of stuff for myself, some friends, etc), is with one virtual machine per service.
<soren> I have a virtual machine for mysql, one for apache, one for kannel, one for nagios, one for postfix/dovecot..
<soren> Feel free to file a bug about this, though. I've never thought it was an issue :)
<soren> 21:43:37 < Zizou> QUESTION: Are those packages available in Debian? maybe with other names...
<soren> Those metapackages are not in Debian, no.
<soren> In Debian, just install libvirt-bin, virt-manager, and kvm, and you should be well on your way.
<soren> 21:45:25 < ~foob9> QUESTION: is there a howto available?
<soren> For getting virt-manager and all that running? Probably :) I don't know to be honest.
<soren> Ok, you have virt-manager installed and you're looking at the overview. Double click on the line that reads "localhost (system)" or "localhost (user)" depending on whether you're a member of libvirtd.
<soren> You're now connected to the hypervisor.
<soren> Click the "New" button, and you're on your way to setting up your first virtual machine.
<soren> It should be mostly self explanatory. If not, don't hesitate to bother us in the #ubuntu-virt channel.
<soren> Or in #ubuntu if you're more comfortable there.
<soren> Apart from the obvious "I don't have a computer that supports kvm" what other reasons do you have for not using virtualisation?
<soren> Is it too difficult to get started?
<soren> Do you not see the point?
<soren> I'm very interested in this, so that we can try to fix the problems.
<soren> 21:54:04 < alexharrington> soren: Initially I was mainly concerned about disk io throughput - especially in things like proxy servers and mail servers. KVM is  working well though.
<soren> I/O performance has been a concern for many people.
<soren> Network performance in KVM is IMO stellar.
<soren> I've moved files from my desktop machine to a virtual machine running on it at 180 MB/s.
<soren> That's not too shabby :)
<soren> Disk I/O has been massively improved in recent kvm versions.
<soren> You'll see a dramatic performance increase in kvm in Jaunty.
<soren> 21:56:04 < alexharrington> QUESTION: any news on paravirtualised block devices - I know there is a paravirt network driver now (which we're using on a couple of  guests).
<soren> The 180 MB/s was with paravirt network drivers. They're called virtio devices in kvm.
<soren> If you use virt-manager to install Ubuntu (and choose Ubuntu in the OS selection drop down), you'll have virtio networking by default.
<soren> There's also virtio block devices, but it doesn't make a lot of difference right now, actually.
<jcastro> (2 minutes left!)
<soren> ...because that's not where the bottleneck is.
<soren> ..but with recent kvm versions, it's likely to make a lot of difference, if you have a storage backend that can keep up.
<soren> Final questions?
<soren> Alright, let's call it a day then. Thanks for showing up, everyone.
* jcastro changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Current Session: Ubuntu Training | Welcome to Openweek, questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat please || Session details here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
<jcastro> thanks soren!
<jcastro> And now, Ubuntu training with billycina and dinda!
<jcastro> take it away ladies!
<billycina> hi folks
<billycina> dinda is just finishing up in another community meeting so I'll kick off
<billycina> so, for those of you who don't know me yet, I am Billy Cina and I look after the training programme for Canonical
<billycina> in this session we plan on basically discussing:
<billycina> 1. What Canonical does on the training front
<billycina> 2. What work we do with the community and how
<billycina> happy to take questions throughout, so stop me whenever
<billycina> so, Canonical wise
<dindatx> I'm here too - Belinda
<billycina> if you can sum up the goal of training, it is to make migrating to Ubuntu as easy and seemless as possible for every user on every level
<billycina> so that means:
<billycina> a. Creating courses for different users and purposes
<billycina> we currently have a system administrator course - Ubutnu Cetified professional
<billycina> The Ubuntu desktop course (which we will go into more detail on during the 2nd half of the meeting)
<billycina> which is really a comfort blanket course for MS users migrating to ubuntu for the first time
<billycina> we also have partner enablement courses
<billycina> so when we get partners on board who need to work with and customise Ubuntu, teaching them how to do that
<billycina> supporting Ubuntu - teaching service providers what to do on the common trouble shooting elements etc
<billycina> where to find more information - wiki, forums, escalation, reporting bugs on LP
<billycina> for many of our partners, working with an OS Linux distribution is completely new playing field so we really need to get down to the basics
<billycina> we are also currently evaluating the need for a server based course
<billycina> So we have the courses
<billycina> now in parallel, we also seek training partners who can actually teach those courses
<billycina> they have to meet certain criteria
<billycina> in order to ensure that there is a good match between their instruction skills, canonical expectations and student requirements
<billycina> so whilst we speak to scores of partners, only  a handful actually get selected to come on board the programme
<billycina> so, big picture - that's what the training team at canonical does
<billycina> does anyone have questions before we get onto the community element of training?
<dinda> http://webapps.ubuntu.com/partners/training/  our current list of partners
<billycina> going
<billycina> thanks dinda
<dinda> Question: Are you planning to translate de guides available on the wiki?
<billycina> so, there are no plans at the moment
<billycina> but
<billycina> the guides and the source material are there for anyone to get the ball rolling, in any language
<dinda> Question from xanders21c: which criteria do you use to select training partners?
<billycina> well, a few of the basic ones:
<billycina> 1. the company must be already an established linux training house
<billycina> we look for partners who already have a presence and understanding of linux training requirements
<billycina> 2. Must have own classrooms and preferably facilities in a number of cities
<billycina> 3. we discourage too many partners in any given geographic area
<billycina> 4. Goes with point 1 - quality of instructors
<billycina> all must be certified Linux instructors and must become LPIC1 cetified and attend the ubuntu Train the Trainer event
<billycina> 5. Types of customers - corporations, governments etc
<billycina> so quite a few elements need to match
<billycina> any other Qs?
<dinda> not yet, continue on
<billycina> ok, Belinda Lopez do you want to lead on the community work?
<dinda> would you believe my doc with all that info jst went "poof"?
<dinda> but I can wing it
<billycina> yeah :)
<dinda> so the second part:  2. What work we do with the community and how
<dinda> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Training
<dinda> is the main wiki page where you can find all our information
<dinda> we're a team of really enthusiastic contributors and we'd love for more folks to come join us
<dinda> we just started the process of assigning tasks to assist in updating the Ubuntu Desktop course
<dinda> and we hang out in #ubuntu-training. . .
<dinda> the goal of the Training Team is to help develop quality training materials. . .
<dinda> that are then released under to the community to use to help spread the Ubuntu love
<dinda> many of the Loco teams have been using the Desktop course materials at their meetings
<dinda> and several groups have begun to translate it as well
<dinda> you don't need any technical expertise to help either
<dinda> right now we're working on updating the course from the 7.10 version to the 8.04 LTS version
<dinda> and hope to release it by December 15
<dinda> anything else I should mention, billycina?
<billycina> how can people get involved?
<billycina> what can they do right now?
<billycina> what tools are we using to create the course?
<dinda> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Training/GettingInvolved
<dinda> right now we are looking for new contirbutors to help us update the course
<dinda> this entails, adopting a chapter, 5, 6 & part of 4 remain. . .
<dinda> then comparing that info to the existing course and suggesting changes on the wiki
<dinda> so for that step, nothing more than downloading a pdf file and having 8.04 running
<dinda> but the deadline for that part is one week from today
<dinda> the next step is a bit more complex but we've have some great folks willing to mentor
<dinda> once the changes have been identified, then they need to be edited and be Docbook friendly
<dinda> which can now be done in Open Office v. 3
<dinda> next week in #ubuntu-training, dougierichardson will lead a session on just how to do that
<dinda> once a "patch" or change is made, then the patch is uploaded into Launchpad/Bzr
<dinda> where we (me, other team members with commit rights) then review and merge the changes into the final courseware
<dinda> so we're trying to make it as easy as possible for new users to contribute
<dinda> make sense?
<billycina> does to me ;)
<billycina> we have a question
 * dinda gives a big sigh of relief o that
<dinda> shoot
<billycina> probably for me to answer
<billycina> FreeBuzzbee: QUESTION: References to both Training and Exams for certification.  Are there fees associated with either or both?  If amount too small then concerned that this might become too infrequent for the demand.
<billycina> FreeBuzzbee: not sure about the 2nd half of the question but
<billycina> yes, the Ubuntu Certified Professional and Desktop course are paid for
<billycina> the UCP also has 3 exams - LPI 101, 102 and Ubuntu 199
<ubot5`> Ubuntu bug 199 in baz ""baz export" doesn't add to the revision library" [Medium,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/199
<billycina> How much the courses cost depends on the country where they are studied
<dinda> ignore the bot
<billycina> the exam prices are the same globally
<billycina> $155 for the LPI exams, $100 for ubuntu 199
<billycina> FreeBuzzbee: does that answer your question?
<dinda> it must :)
<billycina> ok, anyone have any other questions before we sign off for the day?
<billycina> ok, great
<billycina> so thanks everyone
<dinda> it's an easy crowd this time around
<dinda> :)
<billycina> :)
<billycina> we have another question
<billycina> Belinda Lopez: hoping you know the answer to this
<billycina> DoruHush: ï»¿QUESTION: font encoding support for other languages translations of the Ubuntu Desktop course. How can be made. What fonts should be used and how.
<dinda>  DoruHush: ï»¿QUESTION: font encoding support for other languages translations of the Ubuntu Desktop course. How can be made. What fonts should be used and how.
<billycina> lol
<dinda> yes, we're still working this one
<dinda> we're looking for suggestion on what steps we might take in the development process to help
<dinda> if I recall, the issue came down to non UTF-8 character sets
<billycina>  FreeBuzzbee: Is the course a physically attended at hotel or such?  Or can most or all be subscribed online?  Of the links to courses, other than seeing a time and place for it there was not clue to costs involved.  Thanks for the testing costs.
<billycina> FreeBuzzbee: the courses are held at training partner facilities in countries / cities where we have partners
<billycina> FreeBuzzbee: please contact your nearest partner and they will quote you
<billycina> there are also online courses
 * billycina goes to find the link
<billycina> http://www.ubuntu.com/training/e-learning
<dinda> which also offers two free lessons - which is way cool
<billycina>  gscholz: QUESTION: Where are the translations hosted?
<dinda> I saw a few on the ubuntu wiki
<billycina>  DoruHush: https://code.launchpad.net/ubuntu-desktop-course
<billycina> thanks DoruHush
<dinda> Teams have been doing translations and posting them there on the wiki
<dinda> there are also the .po files available in a PPA
<dinda> ack,I'd have to look for them, Nicolas Varcel's PPA has them
<billycina> ok, anyone else?
<dinda> I will post more info on that process on the wiki
<billycina> oh
<dinda> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Training/KnowledgeBase
<billycina> there is also a community training mailing list
<dinda> has the info on How to Translate the course
<billycina> which folks can join to receive updates on meetings and activities
<dinda> and from henceforth I'll be in #ubuntu-training Wednesdays @ 20:00 UTC to answer questions
<billycina> thank you Belinda Lopez
<billycina> thanks all
<dinda> thanks everyone!
<DoruHush> ï»¿dinda: ï»¿billycina: thank you for the session
<billycina> you are welcome - any time ;)
#ubuntu-classroom 2008-11-06
 * meborc is away: FPS - CS, ETQW and then a little teeworlds
* popey changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Next Session: "Ask Mark" With Mark (sabdfl) Shuttleworth | Welcome to Openweek, questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat please || Session details here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
<jcastro> win 38
<soren> lose 97
<jcastro> heh
 * geser hands jcastro some / / / / / / / / / /
 * sebner hands jcastro some gtk :P
<jcastro> A little over 10 minutes until Q+A with Mark Shuttleworth!
<sudobash> really wow
<sudobash> let me guess as soon as it hits 10  he comes in and there is a lock put on speaking in the channel which only allows voiced and ops to speek?
<lordnoid> there's a chat in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, so I don't really care.
<jcastro> Ask questions in  #ubuntu-classroom-chat and I will paste the questions in here
<sudobash> lol i was right....
<kosmos342> hi all
<thiebaude> hi
<kandj> hi sabdfl!
<sabdfl> howdy
<thiebaude> hi mark
<sudobash> whats up
<artir> all hail mark!
<snap-l> Hi sabdfl
<RainCT> Hi
<jcastro> good morning!
<amstella> good morning!
<thiebaude> hi jcastro
* jcastro changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Current Session: Q+A with Mark Shuttleworth | Welcome to Openweek, questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat please || Session details here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
<HigH5> Good evening :)
<andylockran> howdy
<jcastro> Just a minute or so
<jcastro> And then we can begin
<jcastro> Ok thanks everyone for stopping by for another Ubuntu Open Week session
<jcastro> This 2 hour block will be a Question and Answer with Mark Shuttleworth, founder of Ubuntu
<sabdfl> alrighty
<jcastro> Question : First, thank you for all you do in Ubuntu.  Intrepid is the best release yet and I will continue to show my support for it.  Now for my question.  The wireless applet is working beautifully now!  How do you see the FCC's move to open up a wireless spectrum affecting Ubuntu?   And do you think it will be a problem implementing it?  Sorry for such a long question.  Cheers
<sabdfl> thanks Jorge, it's a pleasure to be joining the Jorge-and-Jono show!
<sabdfl> much credit for the wireless applet belongs upstream, where NM is developed
<sabdfl> though the Ubuntu team has worked hard to smooth some rough edges, particularly on the new 3G pieces
<sabdfl> i do think regulatory authorities around the world are getting smarter about wireless spectrum management
<sabdfl> i think that's making it easier for wifi / bluetooth / 3g hardware manufacturers to support linux properly - i.e. with free software
<sabdfl> i don't know if there are plans to make the new "TV whitespace" bandwidth usable from PC's and Linux
<sabdfl> but since Linux now supports more devices than any other OS (stats are wonderful ;-)) the future looks bright
<sabdfl> did that answer your Q ok?
<sabdfl> Next!
<sabdfl> jcastro: next?
<sabdfl> gosh, that was easy :-)
<jcastro> QUESTION: Ubuntu tends to focus on the latest release, regardles of LTS. Most of the new fixes and features make it into the newest releases without getting many backports. Are there plans to address this perception?
<sabdfl> Looking at Hardy, there have been many, many updates
<sabdfl> most of those related to security or critical issues
<sabdfl> with a few SRU's (stable release updates - new versions)
<sabdfl> we need to be appropriately conservative with the primary repositories
<sabdfl> i believe there's also a good community of backporters
<sabdfl> perhaps jcastro can find me a URL for the backports archive?
<jcastro> It's in the software sources, you just check the box in the preferences
<sabdfl> and then there are hundreds of PPA's, with versions of packages there
<sabdfl> i think backports are very important and if there's something else we can do to assist the community processes around them, the CC and TB would be happy to listen
<sabdfl> jcastro: next?
<jcastro> System->Administration->Software Sources and check the appropriate box for those interested in checking out backports
<jcastro> QUESTION: Do you plan to introduce *official* ubuntu HCL (hardware compatibility list), somethinig like https://hardware.redhat.com/ ? If so, when we will see it and what hardware you will start certifying (servers/workstations/laptops/controllers)
<sabdfl> there is already such a list!
<sabdfl> let me look for the URL
<sabdfl> http://webapps.ubuntu.com/certification/list/?release=8.04%20LTS
<jcastro> http://hwdb.ubuntu.com/
<sabdfl> the overall view is at http://webapps.ubuntu.com/certification/
<sabdfl> we can add machines there if the manufacturer approaches us
<sabdfl> and there are many more on the way
<jcastro> QUESTION: Organisations like the BBC are releasing custom versions of their iPlayer application for platforms such as the iPhone, nokia phones .etc...  Do Canonical aim to liase with the BBC (and other similar organisations) to bring apps to ubuntu, and to Linux as a whole?
<sabdfl> both servers and laptops / desktops
<sabdfl> the BBC is doing very interesting work with their content
<sabdfl> in 8.10 there is the beginnings of a framework to bring their content directly to FLOSS desktops
<sabdfl> i think that will expand, as they seem very committed to open access
<sabdfl> hopefully, it's also a catalyst for other content providers to get invovled
<sabdfl> there's a positive trend towards drm-free content, since the music industry realised that DRM was mostly a mistake
<jcastro> QUESTION: Canoncial is not that big currentlic compared to novell, redhat. Are there plans to get more employees: in general and/or developers(maybe MOTU) ?
<sabdfl> we're growing as fast as we can!
<sabdfl> we have a long hiring list
<sabdfl> ubuntu.com/employment is the tip of the iceberg
<sabdfl> but i'm conscious of the need to grow sustainably
<sabdfl> it feels like a delightful place to work and i want to protect and defend that
<sabdfl> since i'm here all the time :-)
<sabdfl> and i think the other team leads feel the same way
<sabdfl> we do like to hire from the community, because we know then that people are committed to the values of free software
<sabdfl> and can work on a global distributed basis
<sabdfl> i think we make a big difference despite being only 7% of the size of Red Hat
<sabdfl> i respect the other companies in the industry for their work, but i do think Canonical is special
<sabdfl> next?
<jcastro> QUESTION: What is for you the biggest Challenge and the biggest priority to be met by Ubuntu in each release?
<sabdfl> the biggest challenge is to make sure we deliver the very best free software release that we can
<sabdfl> we want to make sure that amazing work which has been done in the FLOSS ecosystem is available to every ubuntu user on demand, elegantly
<sabdfl> so we have to work hard to keep up with what's going on out there
<sabdfl> we also want to make sure we add value to the hard work of the debian community
<sabdfl> and make it as easy as possible for others to benefit from our efforts
<sabdfl> we also have to make tough decisions with every release, about what gets in and what does not
<sabdfl> those are the challenges
<sabdfl> the upside is we have a fantastic community that shares those goals
<sabdfl> and many hands make slightly lighter if more complex work :-)
<sabdfl> but definitely, more interesting work :-)
<sabdfl> next?
<jcastro> QUESTION: Ubuntu aims to be one of the user friendliest distributions out there. That, however, increasingly affects the speed of the system, since many services need be started and kept running in the background. Are there plans to increase the systems speed beyond the usual marketing "faster than ever" phrases? Thanks
<sabdfl> it's a good question
<sabdfl> we were all inspired by the work at Intel which demonstrated super-fast boot times on Linux
<sabdfl> now we want to turn that into something that can be maintained and managed
<sabdfl> there is an interesting tradeoff between ease-of-development and resource management
<sabdfl> for example, mono and python make for rapid development
<sabdfl> but do impose a performance overhead
<sabdfl> we also have to try and choose the sweet spot of hardware
<sabdfl> for example, 3D graphics are not around on older PC's
<sabdfl> do we aim to make Ubuntu work on those, or aim to lead the user experience front?
<sabdfl> fortunately, we have parts of the community that specialise in some of those areas, like Xubuntu
<sabdfl> and i feel that allows us to live on the other edge
<sabdfl> when it comes to actual raw performance, i've seen very good numbers from ubuntu
<sabdfl> for example, running virtual machines under KVM, Xen or VMWare, Ubuntu does extremely well
<jcastro> QUESTION: Are there any Internships possibilities for International Students/Graduates @ Canonical?? (And specially in the US??)
<sabdfl> if you have specific areas where you think we could re-engineer for lower overhead and better performance, raise them with the TB
<sabdfl> yes, there would be
<sabdfl> write to hr@canonical.com, especially if you can articulate an area that you think you would be able to make a specific contribution in the time available
<sabdfl> next?
<jcastro> QUESTION: in 2005 (at the early ubuntu  times) i remember that the community was discussing to get out a repository tree which is on the constant bleeding edge. (no freeze times ect...) will we see such a constant bleeding edge Version of ubuntu any time ?
<sabdfl> i would like to!
<sabdfl> we used to describe that as "The Grumpy Groundhog", but we haven't implemented it yet
<sabdfl> PPA's have made some of that possible - there are lots of PPA's with daily builds of cool packages
<sabdfl> deb http://ppa.launchpad.net/bzr-nightly-ppa/ubuntu intrepid main
<sabdfl> try that one on for size :-)
<sabdfl> during Jaunty, i think we will make nightly builds of a couple of major floss packages available
<sabdfl> probably kernel, X, oo.o, firefox, and the like
<sabdfl> we haven't worked out all the details (come to UDS in Mountain View in December if you're interested)
<sabdfl> but the idea would be to make it easy for people to test today's code from upstream
<sabdfl> and to make it easy to verify if a bug has been fixed in the latest trunk
<sabdfl> if that experiment goes well, we can build on it
<sabdfl> next?
<jcastro> QUESTION: Have you had much success with distributing Ubuntu with Dell?
<sabdfl> yes, i think we can say that now :-)
<sabdfl> we have three different programs in place, for different markets
<sabdfl> there's the linux enthusiast program, where you can get one of their current top range of laptops or desktops with linux
<sabdfl> then there's a program in china, which makes Ubuntu an option across most of their range
<sabdfl> and then there are the Vostro and Inspiron Mini netbook ranges, which have special versions of Ubuntu with custom Dell software for specific areas of the user experience
<sabdfl> i would really credit Matt Domsch and John Hull at Dell with their insight into linux engineering
<sabdfl> and mario limonc.... (erk, spelling) is a champion of ubuntu there
<jcastro> mario limonciello
<sabdfl> they clearly see linux users as thought leaders
<sabdfl> and they know that it takes a lot of work to do something like linux well
<sabdfl> and they work very hard at it, so we appreciate the partnership
<sabdfl> (and the machines are selling well too) ;-)
<sabdfl> next?
<jcastro> Question: Many people here in south africa dont use ubuntu because they don't have internet access or broadband. IS there any development being made in thi regard?
<sabdfl> the broadband situation in south africa is poor
<sabdfl> the good news is that i hope it will be much improved by 2010
<sabdfl> i do realise that we don't pay enough attention to the case where people don't have broadband
<sabdfl> we ship a lot of updates, and it's hard to know whether we are shipping too many
<sabdfl> for users with broadband, they are valuable
<sabdfl> for users without it, I think it would be useful if we could help them
<sabdfl> to decide which are more important
<sabdfl> the design of apt archives makes it possible to ship them round on dvd
<sabdfl> perhaps we could look into that?
<sabdfl> next?
<jcastro> QUESTION: How does ubuntu/canonical plan to work towards a fully free desktop, and are there plans for co-operation with gnewsense?
<sabdfl> there are so many definitions of "fully free"
<sabdfl> i think we have a basically good relationship with gNewSense
<sabdfl> and we are supportive of what they do, it's valuable and important work
<sabdfl> we failed to get real interest in a "radical freedom" version of Ubuntu, called Gobuntu
<sabdfl> i really wanted that to fly, but it didn't
<sabdfl> in a sense, it was making life harder for gNewSense, not easier, so we decided to stop work on it
<sabdfl> c'est la vie
<sabdfl> the area of Ubuntu which has a big freedom wart is that we allow binary drivers
<sabdfl> of course, i'm not aware of any major distro that *disallows* binary drivers, though it would be trivial to do it :-)
<sabdfl> but we are pragmatic, and that causes all of us some discomfort
<sabdfl> we engage with vendors and constantly make the point that we can serve them better if they adopt a more open approach
<sabdfl> and there are some vendors which have come around to that specifically because of ubuntu
<sabdfl> i hope we get some credit for that when it happens :-)
<sabdfl> at this stage there are no plans to try and compete with gNewSense in any way, we'll just support them as best we can
<sabdfl> next?
<jcastro> QUESTION: There are over 8 million Ubuntu users right now.  This is 80 times what Mozilla had when they started.  Are there plans for an Ubuntu foundation or similar nonprofit to take over some of Canonical's role?
<sabdfl> we already have the Ubuntu Foundation, which is primarily a fallback vehicle
<sabdfl> in case Canonical doesn't survive for any reason, there are funds in the Foundation to ensure we meet commitments around maintenance for LTS releases and normal releases
<sabdfl> we also keep the governance of the project (Community Council) separate from Canonical, though of course there are big overlaps
<sabdfl> we have a number of non-Canonical folks on the CC, and I would like more on the TB too, though it's tough to find folks with the intense experience and also the time needed to do justice to such an appointment
<sabdfl> i suspect that will get easier as other businesses come to build on Ubuntu as much as Canonical does
<sabdfl> i think it would be unhealthy to setup a Foundation to do the "nice" work while Canonical does the "business" work
<sabdfl> our goal at Canonical is to be "nice and businesslike"
<sabdfl> i don't see a fundamental conflict there - i think it's healthy for Canonical to have to live up to the values of the ubuntu project
<sabdfl> and wouldn't want to see a figleaf in the form of a non-profit in active tension with Canonical
<sabdfl> next?
<jcastro> QUESTION: Does Canonical ever make "Official Policy Announcements" on contentious issues? Two recent controversies were the hard drive wear issue and the issue with the Intel network cards being bricked. Are there official guidelines on what should be done when Ubuntu can possibly damage hardware?
<sabdfl> yes, we have a process for handling emergencies and screwups
<sabdfl> including making sure that we communicate clearly about what the situation is
<sabdfl> unfortunately we have that because there have been emergencies, and we have in the past occasionally screwed up
<sabdfl> but i think the policies are good
<sabdfl> i don't think such an issue is contentious - if we make a mistake, we need to sort it out, and keep people briefed
<sabdfl> next?
<jcastro> QUESTION: I want to see Ubuntu Desktop become more profitable so it stays in focus, any chance of integrating search to the default menus and making money the same way Firefox does?
<sabdfl> yes, that's a possibility. there are ways to introduce services into the desktop and server
<sabdfl> it's important that we be tasteful when we do so
<sabdfl> i hope you find the landscape sysinfo work tasteful, for example
<sabdfl> we can consider the search idea, thanks for the suggestion!
<sabdfl> next?
<jcastro> QUESTION: What is a main reason for the major Linux distributions (especially, Ubuntu) to ship Gnome by default? Is there anything other than preferring LGPL (of GTK) over GPL (of QT)? Do you think it's feasible to ask NOKIA to release QT under LGPL to make KDE more attractive to enterprises? What are the other steps that can be done to push KDE ahead to be default desktop?
<sabdfl> good question
<sabdfl> some days, i think it's good we have multiple desktop environments, and at least two major ones
<sabdfl> because it drives innovation
<sabdfl> other days, it drives me nuts, because we have to write software twice
<sabdfl> and get criticised no matter what we do!
<sabdfl> i do think that a big driver of GNOME and Gtk in the *early* days was licensing
<sabdfl> and we don't know what Nokia will do with Qt licensing
<sabdfl> perhaps that will make it easier for converge
<sabdfl> personally, i would like to see a real effort to focus the innovation of the free software community around a common set of libraries
<sabdfl> and i'm delighted that GNOME and KDE are co-hosting their conferences this year
<sabdfl> that can *only* improve dialogue and communication
<sabdfl> we chose GNOME in 2004 because they had a real commitment to release cycles, and a real commitment to usability
<sabdfl> now KDE has adopted similar ideas
<sabdfl> and soon it might be just as effective a counterpart
<sabdfl> hopefully, they find Kubuntu a good way to get their code out there
<sabdfl> next?
<jcastro> Question: RE: Bug #1. MS Office is the anchor application in the Windows experience for a lot of people.  OpenOffice and Evolution provide a good analog to Office but lack feature parity and innovation.  What is Canonical doing about inspiring vision in these important packages?
<sabdfl> neither is a big focus for us, i'm afraid
<sabdfl> we do participate in OpenOffice
<sabdfl> i was on the advisory board of OO.o till they dropped it recently
<sabdfl> and we try to champion better processes for collaboration with the community there
<sabdfl> they have definitely improved
<sabdfl> soi'm excited about OO.o 3.0
<sabdfl> as for inspiring vision, i don't know that it would be well received in those upstream communities unless we were also willing to write a lot of code there
<sabdfl> we focus our code on integration, making sure that the pieces work well together, rather than the pieces themselves
<sabdfl> though that is changing with our new desktop experience engineering team
<sabdfl> even there - the emphasis is on how the whole desktop fits together, the whole experience rather than any particular part
<sabdfl> next?
<jcastro> Question:1. Many NEW users of Ubuntu aren't used to IRC is there any thoughts of using Jabber or other protocols ? 2. Will we ever see a over the internet sent video or audio conference of UDS or open week with possibility to participate?
<sabdfl> jabber is a wonderful protocol for point-to-point communications
<sabdfl> person to person
<sabdfl> or system to system
<sabdfl> or person to system
<sabdfl> but it's not great, iirc, for group communications
<sabdfl> most of our teamwork is group oriented, hence the preference for IRC
<sabdfl> if you think we could use Jabber effectively, that would be interesting for the TB to hear
<sabdfl> especially if it comes with code and infrastructure!
<sabdfl> w.r.t. video and audio
<sabdfl> we have streamed audio from most UDS's in the past
<sabdfl> we can look into video too
<sabdfl> there is some discussion of video recording this year's UDS, but not streaming real-time video AFAIK
<sabdfl> also, you can participate in UDS via IRC while listening to the streaming audio
<sabdfl> jcastro: is that a fair summary?
<jcastro> yep
<sabdfl> ok
<sabdfl> next!
<jcastro> We also have developer interviews which we put up on youtube and in ogg during UDS
<jcastro> QUESTION: Following codeweavers lame duck challenge givaway of crossover office etc, could you ever see a day were that software was incorporated into Ubuntu through a partnership agreement, potentially that could widen the actractability of Ubuntu if it gave users (particularly business users) the opportunity to use the software they're used to even though OpenOffice offers similar features, users are loathe to change
<sabdfl> we would not include non-free apps in Ubuntu, so MS would have to do more than make it easy to use with Linux :-)
<sabdfl> in principle though, i would like people to be able to build solutions on top of ubuntu
<sabdfl> if that means ubuntu+codeweavers+msoffice, that's fine by me
<sabdfl> it's one step closer for that organisation to ubuntu+oo.o
<sabdfl> same goes for Firefox-on-Windows
<sabdfl> slowly slowly catchee monkey :-)
<sabdfl> i know that scott richie goes great work with WINE in Ubuntu
<sabdfl> and hope that CodeWeavers feel's they can easily offer solutions on top of Ubuntu
<sabdfl> the more people feel they can be part of a broad ecosystem the better
<sabdfl> next?
<jcastro> QUESTION: do you you have any plans to advertise ubuntu on tv, i still find far to many people dont have a clue what ubuntu or linux is in a business environment or at home it seems to make ubuntu profitable this needs to be addressed.
<sabdfl> the cost of tv advertising might slow down our profitability too, though :-)
<sabdfl> again, i think it's best to grow sustainably
<sabdfl> we focus on building something that works really well for well-informed people, and letting them share their knowledge along with the software
<sabdfl> i would love to see ubuntu, or any free software brand, become widely recognised in the regular world
<sabdfl> and not just at Hogwarts :-)
<sabdfl> i'm grateful to Mozilla for doing that with Firefox!
<sabdfl> so, perhaps in time we'll see TV advertising, but not now
<sabdfl> next?
<jcastro> Question : Re - Open Air : Thank you for your response.  Google is extremely excited about this because it could open up "Free" wifi and with mobile going big, I think this could have a huge impact.  Do you think we should begin researching this to stay ahead?  Maybe this could be a good niche to get in to those areas that don't have internet available.
<sabdfl> yes, i would be interested to see the results of that research
<sabdfl> who is making the devices, what is the bandwidth going to be used for, how will it fit into existing network protocols etc
<sabdfl> it's amazing what has been achieved with the small bit of "unlicensed" spectrum
<sabdfl> when i meet regulators i love to tease them with that - and encourage them to find other opportunities to stimulate that innovation
<sabdfl> the challenge is that spectrum is fragmented differently in every region
<sabdfl> the wifi bandwidth was "unlicensed" because it is the same as microwaves
<sabdfl> so people thought there would be too much interference there to do anything useful
<sabdfl> heh. openness surprises people sometimes :-)
<sabdfl> next?
<jcastro> Question: Has your realtionship with Linspire or Freespire inspired or affected you or your work in any way on the last two releases?
<sabdfl> not afaict.
<sabdfl> next?
<jcastro> QUESTION: What in your opinion is the biggest challenge to acceptance of the Ubuntu desktop?
<sabdfl> compatibility with ipods
<sabdfl> people can do most everything else they need to do, realistically
<sabdfl> the one thing I hear a lot about is the ability to manage an ipod
<sabdfl> so, patches welcome!
<sabdfl> next?
<jcastro> Question: Why is i18n a secondary (or worse) priority project? Will this situation radically change in a short time, for example before Jaunty? We translators got only promises before intrepid, before hardy, but the LP translations database is still slow, undermaintaned and i18n problems in packages are largely ignored - this sucks a lot more than it should.
<sabdfl> yes, it does
<sabdfl> i've personally spent a few weeks / months of my life working on LP translations
<sabdfl> it's important to me that we do well, and there are still lots and lots of areas we can improve
<sabdfl> i know that team works hard, and i think they are making steady progress now
<sabdfl> it's very challenging - HUGE data sets
<sabdfl> i didn't help them by designing it in a complex way to try and make LP work for both distros and upstreams
<sabdfl> but i think they are getting over the hump
<sabdfl> so hope it will improve
<sabdfl> it's crazy to me that we still don't have an efficient bi-directional flow of translations with upstream
<sabdfl> until i sit and look at the challenges
<sabdfl> at which point i realise - it's very difficult :-)
<sabdfl> next?
<jcastro> QUESTION: Becouse of the economic downturn more companies are looking to cut costs and linux is looking great for that.  What benefits and disadvantages would it be to hire Canonical for a project compaired to offshoring to India or China?
<jcastro> Lots of questions about the economy
<jcastro> So I guee one round-up answer would be best
<sabdfl> this will be a very challenging year, economically, imo
<sabdfl> i don't think there will be many upside surpises
<sabdfl> we just had a lovely one in the US election, though ;-)
<sabdfl> but economically, yes, this will be a tough year
<sabdfl> i think a lot of companies will look to restructure their systems for cost-effectiveness as a result
<sabdfl> ubuntu makes a superb platform for common server tasks, and common desktop tasks
<sabdfl> so, if you have thousands of desktops doing little but the web, and thousands of servers doing basic web app serving, file and print, mail, etc, then you can benefit substantially with a move to ubuntu
<sabdfl> from windows, unix or a more expensive linux
<sabdfl> we offer full commercial support 24x7 from a Canadian call center (Go Montreal)
<sabdfl> and we negotiate so folks only pay for support on the servers / desktops that are in production
<sabdfl> which can result in big saving
<sabdfl> s
<sabdfl> so, i think this will be a good year for ubuntu and canonical
<sabdfl> next?
<jcastro> QUESTION: Has there been any result from your call to syncronise releases of major distros?
<sabdfl> hmm.... officially, no
<sabdfl> in practice, i'm glad the meme of regular release cadence is gaining ground
<sabdfl> not because it's my idea (it wasn't), but because it's a *good* idea
<sabdfl> and because the more projects do it, the healthier the whole FLOSS ecosystem becomes
<sabdfl> as it happens, i think all the rapid-release distros (Ubuntu, Fedora, OpenSuse) used 2.6.27 in this round
<sabdfl> and as it happens, i think all the LTS releases (Ubuntu LTS, SLES, RHEL) will be in 2010
<sabdfl> so *maybe* we'll get good syncronisation by good fortune
<sabdfl> i would really like to see this embraced by the community as a best practice
<sabdfl> because it works so well
<sabdfl> next?
<jcastro> QUESTION (REPEATED): Is the quest for 'free software laptop' still going on? Are there any manufacturers ready to listen?
<sabdfl> yes and no
<sabdfl> there are LOTS of manufacturers working with Linux now
<sabdfl> but afaik none that have made "uber-freedom" the total goal
<sabdfl> i.e. nobody is working with CoreBoot (the old LinuxBIOS) and nobody is pushing for open source firmware either
<sabdfl> which is a pity!
<sabdfl> but i do put the idea on the table often, so perhaps it will stick some day
<sabdfl> the key thing is that we have to be able to deliver a much better end-user experience, otherwise it's not interesting to the manufacturers
<sabdfl> and so far, we haven't been able to make that case
<sabdfl> next?
<jcastro> Question: are there any plans to offer a cloud based Ubuntu OS?
<jcastro> There was no escaping this question. :)
<sabdfl> We have Ubuntu JEOS ("Just Enough OS") for people who are working in virtualised environments
<sabdfl> that's now evolved to be useful on EC2, VMWare, Xen and KVM
<sabdfl> i would like to see projects like Eucalyptus gain traction, to standardise the cloud around known API's with free software management
<sabdfl> and we're doing our part to make that happen
<sabdfl> next?
<jcastro> QUESTION: Re the Ubuntu mobile and UMPC projects, when can we expect to see devices like Ubuntuphones?
<sabdfl> i don't have a good answer for you i'm afraid
<sabdfl> linux is a perfect platform for consumer electronics, and the rate of adoption there is fantastic
<sabdfl> but it's highly fragmented
<sabdfl> there are many different projects / environments / frameworks for "linux on smartphones"
<sabdfl> limo, openmoko, maemo, moblin, android etc
<sabdfl> we have partnered with moblin from Intel because we think they are committed to (a) a great user experience and (b) open processes and governance
<sabdfl> intel has really set the pace with hardware enablement in free software
<sabdfl> they invest a lot in it, and they invest it well - they work like an open source project to a much greater extent than any other manufacturer
<sabdfl> (hmm, maybe Sun would say they pioneered that, i don't know)
<sabdfl> w.r.t. Intel support for graphics, wireless, chipsets etc, they are a leader in the industry
<sabdfl> so i'm hopeful they will bring that same focus and approach to moblin, and so far they seem willing to do that
<sabdfl> BUT
<sabdfl> it's early days yet
<sabdfl> so, i'm very much looking forward to moblin 2
<sabdfl> we will package that up in ubuntu and try to do it justice
<sabdfl> hopefully, it becomes a magnet for more developers and turns into a great community like GNOME or KDE
<sabdfl> a single-vendor solution isn't ideal, but it's not a bad place to start if the goal is a successful open community
<sabdfl> sometimes it takes one focused push from one organisation, even if you want to have a broader ecosystem
<sabdfl> i think the winning ecosystem in Linux on mobiles will need to have participation from multiple hardware vendors
<sabdfl> and multiple operators, and multiple OSV's
<sabdfl> so, early days :-)
<sabdfl> phew
<sabdfl> i'm rambling
<jcastro> Question: Professional as well as independent producers (think youtube demographic) both need for Ubuntu to come with higher-end Multimedia Production tools (then what is available). What can be done by Canonical to encourage/subsidize developers who wish to meet this need by creating a suite of multimedia tools, such as a high end Non-Linear Video Editor (Final Cut or Premiere level of quality). There are currently
<sabdfl> summary - i think moblin is headed in a good direction, and am supporting that
<jcastro>  some projects that attempt to meet this need, but does not meet user expectations in  usability or features.
<sabdfl> is joe jackson around?
<jcastro> doesn't appear to be
<sabdfl> Ubuntu Studio is a lovely project, and the team behind it has a rare combination of style and skills
<sabdfl> i would like to hear their response to this question!
<sabdfl> i do agree that high-end content editing would be a natural place for linux
<sabdfl> i don't know what the state of the art in those fields is, though, or what we could do to improve it
<jcastro> collabora has recently announced a fulltime developer for pitivi, which is a video editor, if that helps answer the question
<sabdfl> i'm open to suggestions!
<sabdfl> next?
<jcastro> QUESTION: With much of the world on dialup, is there any focus going towards a debian based package managment system similiar to delta rpm's?
<jcastro> some questions about using p2p for updates like bittorrent, etc.
<jcastro> rolling all those into one. :)
<sabdfl> afaik, there has been some talk about a next-gen .deb format
<sabdfl> but it's not been concentrated
<sabdfl> i may be out of that loop, though
<sabdfl> i would certainly love to see it happen, because the current approach is wasteful on bandwidth
<sabdfl> next?
<jcastro> question: What is your favorite Music Artist / Band? Have you had any thoughts of incorporating a Pandora Music Player, from the Music Genome Project, into the Desktop?
<sabdfl> cool idea
<sabdfl> i like that we have magnatunes :-)
<sabdfl> i like Elbow
<sabdfl> "The seldom seen kid"
<sabdfl> and lots of R&B
<sabdfl> i think we could do more with music in the desktop
<sabdfl> i was a bit bummed when Best Buy bought Napster, but that's a different story ;-)
<sabdfl> next?
<jcastro> QUESTION: The hardware database mentioned earlier seems limited to certifying whole machines.  It seems like it would be more useful for most of us if we had a listing of individual hardware products that were known to work (or not work), particularly video and wireless cards...
<jcastro> QUESTION: ..  Yet few wireless vendors would see the point in submitting their hardware for certification unless there were already a database to be added to.  Is there a plan to get that sort of certification?
<sabdfl> i think jcastro pointed to the hardware database earlier
<sabdfl> we try to aggregate the information folks send us about their hardware
<sabdfl> it's difficult to do component-level certification
<sabdfl> because often, something breaks at the system level
<sabdfl> we do work with component manufacturers, though, if there is a machine that needs to be enabled
<sabdfl> next?
<jcastro> QUESTION: Do you agree on the cricitism raised e.g. by Greg Kroah-Hartman in his Linux Plumbers keynote at http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3385088017824733336 that Canonical does not contribute enough back to upstream? Do you plan to increase the number of the developers to answer this criticism?
<sabdfl> i think Greg is well-meaning
<sabdfl> and his numbers are accurate enough
<sabdfl> i think the approach he took was appalling
<sabdfl> as it reminded me how easily we take friends and turn them into strangers
<sabdfl> we each care about specific things, and we spend our time and energy on those things
<sabdfl> Greg was saying "the things I care about are the only things that matter"
<sabdfl> well
<sabdfl> they may be the only things that matter to Greg, but they aren't necessarily the things that matter most to me, or to other members of the Canonical team, or to other members of the Ubuntu community
<sabdfl> in ubuntu, we invest a vast amount of energy (time, money, love, attention, reputation) into free software
<sabdfl> we care deeply about making sure that anybody anywhere can get it, use it legally, and use it safely and securely
<sabdfl> our users appreciate it - THEY know that this is a big investment and gift
<sabdfl> i think someone in Greg's presentation asked "who here uses Ubuntu" and half the room put their hands up
<sabdfl> and Tridge spoke wisely when he said "look, I use Ubuntu heavily, I get all the updates free, it makes me productive, and I've never contributed a patch to Ubuntu"
<sabdfl> in other words, the ecosystem is broader, deeper and richer than Greg was making out
<sabdfl> and those relationships are more complex than Greg was making out
<sabdfl> i believe Ubuntu and Canonical are making a very big difference in free software, and that has little to do with how many patches in the kernel have an @canonical.com email address associated with them
<sabdfl> i'm not going to hire lots of people to keep greg happy :-)
<sabdfl> i do continue to hire people to make free software into an amazing experience for me, my friends, my colleagues and peers, and everyone else i meet in a plane, train or on the street :-)
<sabdfl> when we open source launchpad, we will have more than 100 people doing nothing but hack on free software
<sabdfl> i think that's a great contribution for a company of 200 people
<sabdfl> and perhaps some day greg too will feel that way
<sabdfl> next!
<jcastro> QUESTION: why not release updated disc images with new backported drivers and software updates not only for LTS releases? usually, ubuntu have some problems, that you can solve installing an update, but it will be much easier for newbie, inestead of downloading image and updates to download updated images... and,will not it be good for ubuntu not to be so "bleeding-edge"?
<sabdfl> choices, choices, choices :-)
<sabdfl> we have to balance resources, and we've come up with the process of LTS+point-releases, and standard regular releases
<sabdfl> that allows us to keep getting new wonderful code into releases for testing and for use
<sabdfl> and also allows us to meet the needs of people who want something that will stay relatively stable for longer periods
<sabdfl> we could do more if we had more hands ;-)
<sabdfl> next!
<jcastro> QUESTION: There have ben a few articles about Ubuntu getting slower with each new release. With Windows 7 being the first Windows release to be faster than it's predecessor, are there some similar plans for Ubuntu on enhancing it's performance?
<sabdfl> it's easy to improve off a low base ;-)
<sabdfl> i hope we can rise to the challenge of really fast boot times in Jaunty
<sabdfl> i know the Ubuntu team is very interested in the challenge
<sabdfl> as for broader performance, i don't know that we are doing anything that makes the system slow
<sabdfl> though there are more pieces running by default these days than there were a while ago
<sabdfl> let's see when Win7 releases, shall we?
<sabdfl> next!
<jcastro> QUESTION: What's Your opinion about the overcrowded bug tracker? Seems that users are generating reports faster than developers could resolve them, see: http://keithcu.com/wordpress/?p=24 and currently, there are almost five times this much open bugs. This causes them to ignore most of the bugs (or just mines? :)) What can be the solution?
<sabdfl> interesting
<sabdfl> we definitely need to figure out how to scale our bug processes
<sabdfl> it's a huge privilege to have so many users
<sabdfl> and a great privilege that many of them will take the time and effort to report bugs
<sabdfl> we can't hire twice as many developers when we get twice as many users, though
<sabdfl> we need to figure out how to involve the community to help triage and isolate the bug cases
<sabdfl> and how to share the load across the whole ecosystem
<sabdfl> some people think "ubuntu shoudl fix every bug that's reported in ubuntu"
<sabdfl> well, we certainly feel some responsibility for every bug
<sabdfl> but we also know that many of the bugs reported in ubuntu also exist in every other distro and upstream
<sabdfl> so we need to get efficient about making sure that the bugs are reported accurately upstream
<sabdfl> we build some plugins for bugzilla and trac under the GPL that make it easier to coordinate the response to those bugs betwen the distro and upstream
<sabdfl> so if you work upstream on a project that uses bugzilla and/or trac, please consider installing those!
<sabdfl> https://help.launchpad.net/Bugs/BugzillaPlugin
<sabdfl> not sure where the Trac one went :-)
<sabdfl> next?
<jcastro> Question: There are a lot of bugs concerning the audio subsystem in Hardy and Intrepid. The combination of OSS ALSA and PA sound systems seems to have made it painful and confusing to new users. Many audio applications do not work as expected. Are there any plans for Canonical to get involved in these projects and hire audio engineers/developers to manage the Ubuntu Audio Team and attempt and fix these issues?
<sabdfl> good question
<sabdfl> i'm hoping that PulseAudio is The Answer to linux audio issues
<sabdfl> this has been a long, long journey
<sabdfl> i don't have a specific plan or agenda in the audio space though
<sabdfl> if you think we need one, please put something together for the TB
<sabdfl> next!
<jcastro> QUESTION: Will it be much longer until launchpad is released open source ?
<sabdfl> it will be done by November 2009
<sabdfl> the team is working through a list of issues already
<sabdfl> license checks, separating out pieces that are not related to the web service, determining the right approach for various issues
<sabdfl> it may happen sooner, but you have a concrete commitment that it will be done by then
<sabdfl> there are still a lot of unanswered questions
<sabdfl> we will see how that release goes, and probably tweak processes after that
<sabdfl> next?
<jcastro> QUESTION: Any plans to making Launchpad more social? Perhaps people will accidentally start working on bugs and answering questions, if we integrate a Laconica microblogger and some other features that are considered cool these days?
<sabdfl> :-)
<sabdfl> i would like that
<sabdfl> i did some of the work on the maps feature
<sabdfl> and i know some members of the LP team want more social features
<jcastro> (ed. note - the laconica guy will be at FOSSCamp and there is a strong presence of ubuntu folks on identi.ca itself)
<sabdfl> after all, open source is a social exercise
<sabdfl> if you have specific social ideas for LP, please hop onto #launchpad and discuss, or send them to kiko
<sabdfl> or beuno, or me
<sabdfl> next!
<jcastro> QUESTION: NVidia's drivers are notoriously misfitting on the Linux desktop, and this is getting very visible with the awesome kernel mode-setting and Fedora's Plymouth graphical boot. What does the Ubuntu team at Canonical do to grow hardware support in cases like NVIdia's?
<sabdfl> remind nvidia about the benefits of open source drivers :-)
<sabdfl> the kernel modesetting work from Intel is fantastic
<sabdfl> i do think nvidia and ati will get that part quickly
<sabdfl> the harder stuff is the deep integration of GL and X
<sabdfl> stuff like GEM will be harder to drive adoption of
<sabdfl> the main focus i think needs to be on driving adoption of the linux desktop in large-scale markets
<sabdfl> because that drives the agenda at hardware manufacturers
<sabdfl> next!
<jcastro> QUESTION: Do you have plans on driving X.org out or reducing it to minimum at some point in future?
<sabdfl> driving it out?
<jcastro> This is probably about that prototype X server called wayland
<sabdfl> i think the X guys have made big strides since Keith &co engaged
<sabdfl> and Arjan's work on the fast boot showed that they can still improve a lot
<sabdfl> i don't know enough about X.org alternatives to have a cogent view on them i'm afraid
<jcastro> QUESTION: How successful has getting boxed version of Ubuntu into the USA retailer Best Buy been for Canonical?
<sabdfl> i would hope though that the X.org folks are continuing to make X leaner and meaner
<sabdfl> i don't have any stats on the Best Buy initiative, i'm afraid
<sabdfl> but i'm glad whenever floss shows up in a new channel
<jcastro> QUESTION: Will we have a new theme for jaunty?
<sabdfl> there are lots of roads, hopefully they all lead to linux eventually!
<sabdfl> hmm.... maybe!
<sabdfl> we have been hiring, for months, designers and user experience guys
<sabdfl> it has taken much longer than i hoped
<sabdfl> that team will be in place in jan / feb, i imagine
<sabdfl> whether their initial work will make a dramatic visual impact on Jaunty, i don't know
<sabdfl> i know that other work, on the user experience front, will land
<sabdfl> but i'll keep some surprises in store till later ;-)
<sabdfl> next!
<jcastro> QUESTION: Qt 4.5 will ship QGtkStyle by default, which will make it use GTK to provide a native look for Qt application in GNOME. With this, you write applications once, and they look native on both GNOME and KDE. Are there plans for some ubuntu-apps to be written in Qt 4.5?
<jcastro> (one more after this)
<sabdfl> that's very interesting
<sabdfl> it would certainly be a relief to be able to write once and deliver into both kubuntu and ubuntu simultaneously
<sabdfl> i'll have to ask the team themselves what they think of this option, though
<sabdfl> personally, i would like to see a real effort to bring the toolkits together
<sabdfl> as painful as that may sound
<sabdfl> it would make it much more efficient to work in desktop linux
<sabdfl> next!
<jcastro> QUESTION: how robust is the laptop certification process between Canonical and its partners? should customers expect 0% system breakage (in terms of hardware or software)?
<sabdfl> they should expect it, and we strive to deliver it
<sabdfl> see above for how we handle emergencies and screwups :-)
<sabdfl> next!
<jcastro> QUESTION: There have been rumors that you personally aren't quite comfortable with Wine.  Could you make a statement as a lead in to my talk up next? ;)
<sabdfl> i'm perfectly comfortable with WINE
<sabdfl> next!
<jcastro> that's it
<jcastro> we are out of time
<sabdfl> phew
<jcastro> thanks Mark for answering questions, and thanks everyone for getting involved!
<sabdfl> my fingers ache but i'm happy to meet you all!
<sabdfl> thanks for the great questions
<jcastro> over 300 people participated!
<sabdfl> thanks jcastro  for the quick fingerwork :-)
<sabdfl> cheers all
<jcastro> ok, next up we have Scott Ritchie with WINE
<jcastro> in about ~3 minutes
 * jcastro runs to the restroom while he can
<YokoZar> Hey everyone, thanks for sticking around.  I promise to be even more interesting than Mark Shuttleworth.
<YokoZar> So, I'm the Wine guy.  I maintain both the "official" Ubuntu Wine packages and the "unofficial" ones over at WineHQ (or the Wine Team PPA -- same bits).
<YokoZar> I'm also a Wine developer.  About a month ago I was at the Wine developer conference, where I got way more involved than I expected to be.
<YokoZar> Feel free to ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat at any time, by the way.
<YokoZar> I found myself leading an hour-long discussion about all the ultimate usability goals we (downstream) needed to integrate Wine well into the desktop.
<YokoZar> In practical terms these translate into feature requests across multiple projects -- to make it easy to configure a Windows Application by right clicking on it and selecting Properties, for instance, we need new code from both Wine and Gnome (or KDE).
<YokoZar> Such a feature would be useful to a human being who wanted to have a "full screen" Windows application run in only a Window.  While the other Wine developers were definitely interested in seeing such an eventual thing happen, none of them wanted to write code outside Wine to handle it.
<YokoZar> They were glad, however, to meet halfway and write the code for other software to interface with Wine via command line or D-Bus message.  So, I volunteered to make the appropriate Gnome interface and actually see that it gets out there to end users.
<YokoZar> So, now I'm going to become a Gnome developer.  It's exciting, although I'm currently unemployed and am desperately trying to find more time to work on Ubuntu-related projects -- the desktop integration projects alone could take me months of full time work.
<YokoZar> johnflux: QUESTION: What is the current programming focus of wine?
<YokoZar> Wine isn't specifically "focused" on any particular thing.  There are many developers working on many different applications.
<YokoZar> But you don't write a patch to "make program x work", you write a patch to "make windows function foo needed by program x work the way it's supposed to"
<YokoZar> Eventually when you do enough of that applications just start working, especially if you implemented the windows function correctly.
<YokoZar> Wine developers do focus on particular applications, of course, but there's also a lot of "collateral damage" -- apps that just start working on accident, since development was done the right way.
<YokoZar> Related: johnflux: QUESTION: what are the main current hurdles left?
<YokoZar> There are many.  Many applications don't work, even more don't work perfectly.  Some whole areas are unimplemented, like Direct3D 10
<YokoZar> Wine is nowhere near "almost done", yet we're quite near 95% of applications being useful enough to run
<YokoZar> Wine development was frustrating for many years, because any one thing left broken or unimplemented could keep an application from working entirely.  Wine's finally getting "enough" such that many applications are starting to actually work
<YokoZar> sudobash: question: Is it true that Wine is built around Windows 3.11 for its emultaor like abilites?
<YokoZar> No
<YokoZar> Wine is 100% microsoft-free.  There is no "built around" a version of Windows
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: /cs topic Current Session: Wine | Welcome to Openweek, questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat please || Session details here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
<YokoZar> However we do try and make certain windows functions behave like Windows (which version depends on how you've configured Wine), so that applications work
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Current Session: Wine | Welcome to Openweek, questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat please || Session details here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
<YokoZar> Wine got started over 15 years ago in the Windows 3.1 days, and that code's still there
<YokoZar> In fact there are quite a few applications that work well in Wine but refuse to run in Vista, especially old 16-bit apps.
<YokoZar> Milyardo: QUESTION: What is the WINE Team's relation with Microsoft? Does the WINE team get help from Microsoft? Has the WINE team even given Microsoft any insight into their own product?
<YokoZar> The closest the Wine team's interaction with Microsoft ever gets is reading MSDN documentation to figure out how to implement a function
<YokoZar> Unlike SAMBA, Microsoft doesn't help Wine in any way.  Often times that MSDN documentation is flat-out wrong as well.
<YokoZar> We suspect that many Wine developers know the internals of how Windows functions behave better than most Microsoft developers, though Wine developers are prohibited from seeing any Microsoft code (and if you ever have, eg downloading the stolen source code on the internet a while back, you can't ever contribute to Wine)
<YokoZar> Microsoft is also rumored to prohibit their employees from even looking at GPL/LGPL'ed code, so it's likely they don't look at Wine either.
<YokoZar> So Wine is way different from Mono and Samba - Microsoft basically ignores us, and in so doing they hope their customers ignore us too.
<YokoZar> johnflux: QUESTION: have you tried to get a job to work on wine with Canonical? :)  worth a shot
<YokoZar> Yes.  I'd really like to.  I'm gonna try hobknobbing some more at the next Ubuntu Developer Summit.  Hopefully I'll have some UI work done to show off, as Canonical has recently started employing Gnome people.
<YokoZar> I'm also a part time teacher, and doing Ubuntu training work has also fascinated me.  I live in the US, however, and the closest Ubuntu-certified training partner is all the way in Canada ;)
<YokoZar> I'm also considering doing a community fundraiser as an experiment, in part to replenish the Wine developer fund that we used up sponsoring people like me to the last Wine conference
<YokoZar> joemoe: QUESTION: Will Wine ever be able to match like, Windows XP software compatibility?
<YokoZar> Yeah.  It's a very feasible goal.  Wine development has been quickening, for much the same reason Wikipedia began growing faster; the more useful Wine and Ubuntu get, the more people use us, and then the more developers we get
<YokoZar> That said, focus will still be on applications rather than targeting the API as a whole.  There's little need to implement foox.dll if only Windows-internal applications use it
<YokoZar> QUESTION: aren't there any 'big' general areas currently being worked on?  e.g. directx 10  or something
<YokoZar> Yes, that was one of the "major features" outlined by Alexandre for the next release
<YokoZar> Basically there are 5 major features that will take forever to do
<YokoZar> Any one of them would trigger a new release freeze
<YokoZar> They were: Direct 3D 10, Win-64 bit support, a Quartz display driver for Mac, USB support (eg for newer iPods), and one other I can't remember off the top of my head
<YokoZar> Of those the most likely to happen within the next 6 months is the USB support
<YokoZar> GFORGX: QUESTION: will there be something like Qt's QGtkStyle for Wine? It'd be great if Windows apps'll look native in GTK environment.
<YokoZar> Unfortunately, it's impossible to render Wine in GTK.  Windows widgets don't map neatly to GTK, and Wine needs to control it with it's own drawing code
<YokoZar> However, it is possible to theme Wine itself
<YokoZar> Getting Wine to read the system theme and generate it's own theme on the fly is theoretically possible, but really hard (and if you do it wrong it often looks very ugly)
<YokoZar> Google tried that with Picassa for a bit before ultimately giving up and just going with the default Wine blue-boring-windows theme
<YokoZar> The proposal I gave at Wineconf, however, seems like the way forward: we make a Windows-style .theme file for each of the default themes, and then have Wine read this whenever we set the system theme.
<YokoZar> This way you set Ubuntu to use Human and then Wine reads the (otherwise ignored) Human-for-Windows theme included with it, and then renders that way.
<YokoZar> I'm happy to say work on this has now started
<YokoZar> johnflux: QUESTION:  Is wine being developed faster or slower than new windows code is being added?
<YokoZar> I'd say faster, much faster.  The worry is that Microsoft will keep changing the API so much that Wine can't keep up.  But Microsoft are very limited in how they can do that, as they have to maintain backwards compatibility so your old applications work.
<YokoZar> This is why, for instance, many programs still worked on Windows 95 even as late as 2001.  Being "Windows-95 compatible" would have made most applications work on Wine that late as well
<YokoZar> Microsoft has to focus on developers, and developers don't like changing the APIs they use for no reason, especially if it means their application can only be used on the latest version of Windows.  I suspect it'll be a few years before we even start seeing a substantial amount of "Vista or later" applications
<YokoZar> KDesk: QUESTION: What is the difference between Wine, Cedega and CrossOver?
<YokoZar> Cedega is unrelated at this point.  It is a proprietary fork of a very old version of Wine.  From what I read on the forums, free Wine works better than Cedega in almost all cases, even on applications that Cedega specifically "supports"
<YokoZar> Every now and again Transgaming (makers of Cedega) likes to claim that they are "sending code to Wine" but their contributions have been largely worthless
<YokoZar> Crossover is based on free, LGPL Wine.  It's basically a tested version of Wine with a few small proprietary UI enhancements in front of it
<YokoZar> Codeweavers makes Crossover, and they've been good patrons of the project.  They pay most of the development staff, and everything gets pushed into Wine
<YokoZar> Sometimes Crossover will work better than Wine for it's specific supported application (say, Office), but this is mainly because they put some ugly specific-workaround that might isn't suitable for Wine as a whole as it could break other applications
<YokoZar> mbt: QUESTION:  16-bit apps don't run on 64-bit systems.  Does Wine intend on providing some sort of real emulation layer to support old Windows/DOS applications that depend on real-mode?
<YokoZar> Well, there's libx86 for one
<YokoZar> Which Wine does link against and use
<YokoZar> Although that did break with Wine 1.1.7, but that's being fixed
<YokoZar> But yes, that is something done, although it's obviously not a huge priority
<YokoZar> joemoe: QUESTION: Do you know if Linux will ever get native support for running PE libraries and executables?
<YokoZar> That's exactly what Wine is
<YokoZar> Wine is a native program for loading PE libraries and executables.
<YokoZar> joemoe: QUESTION: Is there any way someone with moderate development skills can make Wine better?
<YokoZar> Yes.  Quite a few ways
<YokoZar> You can help me with the UI stuff if you like
<YokoZar> But if you're a C hacker, you can do a lot for Wine
<YokoZar> There's tons of areas of the code that are basically "todo, someone please just implement me"
<YokoZar> The best thing you can do is just send an email to wine-devel and say "hey I'd like to help point me to something"
<YokoZar> Laney: QUESTION: Do you have stairs in your house?
<YokoZar> Yes, I am protected.
<YokoZar> johnflux: QUESTION: Can you explain what you mean by 'USB support' a bit more?  what does this mean for wine to support USB?
<YokoZar> So, when you plug your iPod touch in it's not just a generic mass storage device
<YokoZar> it loads it's own special driver
<YokoZar> Wine can't understand that driver yet
<YokoZar> That's basically it - we need code to understand the special instructions devices like that are saying.
<YokoZar> Interestingly, with support like that it's possible that arbitrary USB devices can be made to work on Linux, like key fobs
<YokoZar> Or, more relevantly, printers
<YokoZar> There might come a time in the future where you'd be able to make a printer work on Linux by running the driver through Wine.
<YokoZar> This is something you can't do with most drivers since Wine has to be a user-level process, but printers is an interesting exception
<YokoZar> sudobash: Question: Do you have a list of software that you have tested and feel confident that it can be used by intermediate to advanced users with no problem?
<YokoZar> Check out appdb.winehq.org
<YokoZar> That's basically our best guess at what works
<YokoZar> Even working applications can run into issues if you have bad (especially ATI) drivers though
<YokoZar> I will say that I recently put Ubuntu on my girlfriend's EeePC, and installing iTunes 7 was a matter of double clicking
<YokoZar> Works fine for her, even with her purchased music
<YokoZar>  (iTunes 8 can't install though)
<YokoZar> And she's a complete newbie.  But now she's becoming more in to the Ubuntu thing
<YokoZar> Wine was her gateway drug
<YokoZar> robin0800: Question: Where can I find a list of applications that definatly work 100% in wine?
<YokoZar> Appdb is your best bet still
<YokoZar> We always need help with AppDB
<YokoZar> It's very easy to become a "maintainer" and just test your application with the latest Wine version
<YokoZar> So please do that if you care about an app and it doesn't have a maintainer
<YokoZar> alucardni: QUESTION: Do you think there will be a day when we won't need WINE anymore??
<YokoZar> No
<YokoZar> There will always be legacy Windows applications that people won't rewrite
<YokoZar> In many cases they might not even have the code
<YokoZar> Especially old games
<YokoZar> Warcraft 3 will never get a Linux port, for instance.  But it runs great in Wine, and it will continue to do so 10 years from now
<YokoZar> rzr: QUESTION: i know this is outtopic but are there similar project that aims to support macosx/cocoa binaries over gnu/linux ?
<YokoZar> I'm pretty sure there isn't
<YokoZar> at least not one that's gotten anywhere near off the ground
<YokoZar> lordnoid: QUESTION: Are virtualisation apps like VirtualBox and VMWare competition for Wine?
<YokoZar> Yes, since they share a similar goal - running Windows applications
<YokoZar> But virtualization has inherent limitations, especially the need to purchase and run a copy of Windows
<YokoZar> Wine might actually help virtualization technology.  If you have a Windows application that works in Wine, for instance, you can easily redistribute it for free as a Virtual Appliance
<YokoZar> If Wine didn't work, such an application would require a license for Vista Ultimate with every distribution
<YokoZar> Also keep in mind that some virtualization solutions actually use Wine
<YokoZar> For instance Parallels has "Direct3D 8 support" because it's actually using Wine's Direct3D 8 code to translate Direct3D into OpenGL
<YokoZar> mirza: QUESTION: How goes cooperation with ReactOS project if there is any ?
<YokoZar> ReactOS uses Wine code
<YokoZar> The Wine project itself is careful to not use any ReactOS code that might have been tainted, however
<YokoZar> Some parts of Wine are directly from reactOS, for instance the Wine task manager
<YokoZar> If I skipped any questions on accident, please feel free to reask
<YokoZar> Or follow up :)
<YokoZar> We've got a couple of minutes left
<YokoZar> I'd like to make an announcement too.  I'm making a video detailing the current state of Wine, and where it can be improved in terms of user experience
<YokoZar> If you double click an exe file in Intrepid without having Wine installed, for instance, it acts like it's an archive and spits out some completely useless error message
<YokoZar> samgee: QUESTION: I thought ReactOS had cleared up all their 'tainted' issues?
<YokoZar> I believe they have, but most of the ReactOS developers work these days seems to be on the ReactOS specific parts (rather than the Wine parts), eg their kernel
<YokoZar> MadsRH: QUESTION: Are there any plans for 9.04 to present the user with a "You need to install Wine to run this application" dialog when running a exe file or similar?
<YokoZar> Yes, that's right on my todo list.  You can check my wiki page for other projects https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScottRitchie
<YokoZar> Hopefully I'll find time (or employment) to complete them all before 9.04
<YokoZar> Some of those projects are over a year old when I went to the Ubuntu Developer Summit for Hardy
<YokoZar> I do still need to clean that wiki page up a bit.  It kind of looks like the pen board I have on my wall - large todo list
<jcastro> ok that's about it for time
<jcastro> thanks scott!
<YokoZar> You are welcom sir :)
* jcastro changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Current Session: Verifying Stable Update (SRU) bugfixes | Welcome to Openweek, questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat please || Session details here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
<jcastro> take it away sbeattie!
<sbeattie> jcastro: should we take a couple minute break?
<jcastro> sure, if you'd like
<sbeattie> Alright, let's get started. Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat please, feel free to ask as we go along.
<sbeattie> I'm from the ubuntu QA team, here to talk a little bit about the process we go through to verify bugfixes for updates.
<sbeattie> First, a little overview of the stable release updates (SRU) process
<sbeattie> SRUs are updates to packages in released versions of the distro (e.g. Intrepid, Hardy) to fix particularly annoying bugs
<sbeattie> The process is that we get a proposed fix for a bug from a developer or upstream.
<sbeattie> Once we have that, either the SRU team (for packages in main) or MOTU SRU (for universe) will approve the fix, then the archive admins will upload the package to the aprropriate -proposed repository
<sbeattie> Once that happens, then verification of the fix occurs, and the package can go into the updates repository
<sbeattie> The annoying cdrom eject behavior in intrepid is being fixed via this process, for example.
<sbeattie> The process is described in detail at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates
<sbeattie> Security updates go through a slightly different but similar process, due to often being embargoed such that they can't be publicly discussed until a certain date
<sbeattie> There are two things we're looking for when a package moves into -proposed before it can go into -updates: verification of the fix itself and regressions
<sbeattie> Both are important to find; we want to find regressions so that we don't break things for existing users
<sbeattie> But we also want to verify that the fix does actually improve the situation for our users; if it doesn't help we're wasting their time and bandwidth as well as ours.
<sbeattie> The current set of outstanding SRUs are tracked (unfortunately) in 3 different locations:
<sbeattie> The master page at http://people.ubuntu.com/~ubuntu-archive/pending-sru.html
<sbeattie> A page specifically dedicated to packages in main at http://people.ubuntu.com/~sbeattie/sru_todo.html
<sbeattie> And a corresponding one for universe at http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/sru/todo.html
<sbeattie> (each contains slightly different information, which is why they all exist, but my intention is to merge them all eventually)
<sbeattie> The process we follow when verifying is roughly as follows:
<sbeattie> - set up a known, relatively pristine, environment
<sbeattie> - try to reproduce the issue in the most recent published version of the software
<sbeattie> - enable the -proposed repository and install the proposed update for that software
<sbeattie> - try to reproduce the issue with the updated software
<sbeattie> - report results on the SRU bug report
<sbeattie> I'll cover these steps in a little more detail with a walkthrough of a particular bug
<sbeattie> The first step is to make sure we have a relatively pristine version of the distro the fix is targeted for
<sbeattie> we want to ensure we eliminate outside effects, and are just seeing the changes due to the package update
<sbeattie> virtualization is useful here, particularly with snapshotting capabilities
<sbeattie> so kvm, virtualbox, xen, vmware et al are nice tools to have for an isolated environment
<sbeattie> Generally, we also want to make sure the image is up-to-date with regard to updates
<sbeattie> Then we try to reproduce the bug in question.
<sbeattie> We want to do this so that we know what we're testing for when we install the proposed package.
<sbeattie> Often just doing this will offer us more insights into the actual problem being solved than just a cursory read of the bug report.
<sbeattie> If we can't reproduce the initial problem, we have much less confidence that the update actually is going to fix the issue
<sbeattie> (sometimes, the bug has already been fixed and launchpad's status is out of date for whatever reason)
<sbeattie> hardware specific bugs offer their own special problems; if we don't have the hardware, it's much harder to reproduce
<sbeattie> There's not much we can do except prompt on the bug report for people affected by the bug to do the testing and install the package ourselves to look for regressions.
<sbeattie> These are often kernel or X problems, though webcams are particular issue for intrepid
<sbeattie> The example bug we'll look at is an SRU for update-manager in intrepid, bug 40058
<sbeattie> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/update-manager/+bug/40058
<sbeattie> update-manager is a key tool, the default gui for performing updates; it's important we don't break this for our users!
<sbeattie> The bug is that changelogs aren't being shown to users
<sbeattie> particularly if source repositories aren't enabled in apt
<sbeattie> In this case, the dev has been nice enough to put in an explicit TESTCASE section
<sbeattie> That's not always the case, so sometimes you get to figure out how to test for the condition
<sbeattie> Normally, we would wait to enable the -proposed repository until after we've reproduced the bug, but in this case we'll do it now as part of the reproduction procedure
<sbeattie> You can do this through the menus, via System -> Admin -> Software Sources menu
<sbeattie> or invoke the tool directly 'sudo software-properties-gtk'
<sbeattie> From there, under the 'updates' tab menu, tick the "proposed updates" box
<sbeattie> alternately, you can edit or script changes to your /etc/apt/sources.list file directly
<sbeattie> you'll want to ensure that apt's information is update, via 'sudo apt-get update'
<sbeattie> (If you're specifically editing /etc/apt/sources.list, you'd want something similar to "deb http://us.archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ intrepid-proposed universe main multiverse restricted" as a line in there)
<sbeattie> Again, we'd normally do this after reproducing the bug on the original software.
<sbeattie> As part of reproducing, we want to double-check exactly what version of the software we're testing.
<sbeattie> In this case, we'll look to see what version of update-manager and update-manager-core we have installed
<sbeattie> from the command line, we can do: apt-cache policy update-manager update-manager-core
<sbeattie> The relevant  portions of that are:
<sbeattie>           Version table:
<sbeattie>              1:0.93.34 0
<sbeattie>                 500 http://us.archive.ubuntu.com intrepid-proposed/main Packages
<sbeattie>          *** 1:0.93.32 0
<sbeattie>                 500 http://us.archive.ubuntu.com intrepid/main Packages
<sbeattie>                 100 /var/lib/dpkg/status
<sbeattie> (note that we're also seeing the proposed version as available but not installed_
<sbeattie> (the *** indicates which version is installed)
<sbeattie> Okay, so we've got the original version installed, let's run it and see if we can reproduce
<sbeattie> we'll open update-manager, either via the menu or via 'sudo update-manager' directly
<sbeattie> scroll (if necessary) to the proposed updates section
<sbeattie> if you're not seeing some proposed updates available, then either something's gone wrong in the process of enabling the -proposed repository, or you already had -proposed enabled
<sbeattie> Tick the 'description of update' toggle for one of the proposed updates and you should see something like
<sbeattie> http://people.ubuntu.com/~sbeattie/OW2008/Update_Manager_unfixed.png
<sbeattie> If so, then yay, we've reproduced the bug.
<sbeattie> so then we move on to seeing if the bug still exists in the proposed version.
<sbeattie> we'll go ahead and install the update-manager and update-manager-core packages from proposed
<sbeattie> again, we don't want to install all the packages in proposed here, because we want isolate interference to ensure we know what we're looking at
<sbeattie> since we're testing update-manager we could untick all the other updates, but exiting and running 'sudo apt-get install update-manager update-manager-core' is a bit quicker
<sbeattie> then we try to reproduce the problem again
<sbeattie> as before, we want to run 'apt-cache policy update-manager update-manager-core' to ensure we have the right packages installed
<sbeattie> Now version 1:0.93.34 of each should be installed
<sbeattie> we'll run update-manager again
<sbeattie> and look at the details for some of the proposed updates
<sbeattie> should see something like: http://people.ubuntu.com/~sbeattie/OW2008/Update_Manager_proposed.png
<sbeattie> Yay, looks like the bug is fixed in the proposed package.
<sbeattie> We'll poke around checking out the details for multiple packages to make sure they're all showing changelogs
<sbeattie> Once we've done that, we can look for regressions as well.
<sbeattie> Some things to look for in terms of regresions:
<sbeattie> - install requirements; does it depend on other packages in proposed, particularly ones not from the same source package?
<sbeattie> if it does, and both packages aren't moved into updates at the same time, the package will be uninstallable.
<sbeattie> - possible differences in behavior for fresh install versus update from buggy version; sometimes the fixes only show up for new installations, particularly for packaging problems
<sbeattie> Things to do:
<sbeattie> just generally play with the app; helps here if you're familiar with it.
<sbeattie> For update-manager we'll go ahead and install some updates, and see if things still work properly
<sbeattie> we can also look on https://testcases.qa.ubuntu.com/ for things to test
<sbeattie> The  security team has some regression scripts in a bzr tree:
<sbeattie>     https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-bugcontrol/qa-regression-testing/master
<sbeattie> Finally, you can also enable the proposed repository for your day-to-day desktop: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/EnableProposed
<sbeattie> That comes at some risk, if a bad update comes through. But we want to know about that as early as possible!
<sbeattie> Finally we report our results on the SRU bug on launchpad
<sbeattie> Both failures and successes are important to report!
<sbeattie> note both the before and after versions of the software you tested
<sbeattie> also report anything out of the ordinary or unexpected you had to do in testing
<sbeattie> it's also helpful to update the description of the bug if elements are missing (eg. you created a TESTCASE)
<sbeattie> When doing all this, if you run into problems, you can always solicit for help on #ubuntu-bugs and #ubuntu-testing, as well as asking directly on the bug report
<sbeattie> We could use help in doing verifications and looking for regressions
<sbeattie> In particular, hardy SRUs have lagged recently due to focus on the intrepid release
<sbeattie> There's an SRU verification team on launchpad at https://launchpad.net/~sru-verification
<sbeattie> And this coming monday, November 10th, we'll be focusing a testing day on SRU verifications as well.
<sbeattie> That's all I have, if there's quick questions I can take them here or over in #ubuntu-testing
<jcastro> ok thanks sbeattie!
* jcastro changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Current Session: usb-creator | Welcome to Openweek, questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat please || Session details here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
<jcastro> And now we have Evan Dandrea, who will be discussing usb-creator
<jcastro> a new feature in 8.10!
<jcastro> take it away evand!
<evand> My name is Evan Dandrea, and I work on the Installer Team for Canonical.  I am the primary author of usb-creator.
<evand> Is there a volunteer to field questions from -chat?
<jcastro> evand: looks like you're on your own. :D
<evand> hooray :)
<evand> ok
<evand> I'm going to (hopefully) briefly speak about what usb-creator is, where it stands, and where it's going, as well as how you can help make it awesome, and then field questions.  Though if you have a question about a specific point I make, please feel free to interrupt.
<evand> usb-creator was started out of the need to provide an installation medium for systems without a CD-ROM drive and as a way of providing a much faster installation.
<evand> It was decided to create a desktop program that writes a CD or ISO file to a USB disk rather than autogenerate images on http://cdimage.ubuntu.com because space and bandwidth on cdimage are already maxed out, and because a tool would still be needed to write the generated image to a disk.
<evand> Incidentally, this is part of the reason why hybrid CDs do not solve the fundamental problem that usb-creator was created for.  A tool is still needed to write the image to disk and to create a persistence file, if requested.
<evand> For more details on this, the original specification for usb-creator can be found here:
<evand> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/USBInstallationImages
<evand> There was much more work than just writing usb-creator, as proper support for USB disk installs has been a long standing series of bugs.
<evand> Briefly, this included making sure that the installer did not let you install to a USB disk if it was also the installation source media, adding root-by-uuid support to GRUB and grub-installer so that disk ordering issues, such as when you remove a USB disk after install, should no longer break the bootloader configuration, and making sure the installer selected a reasonable default when installing from a USB disk (e.g. not hd0).
<evand> jcastro: can you +v homy ?
<evand> Right, so that's briefly why we have the tool.
<evand> thanks
<evand> If you have 8.10 installed, you should have a "Create a USB disk" entry in System -> Administration
<evand> If you run this and insert a CD and USB disk, or select an ISO file from your desktop, it will write the contents of that CD image to the USB disk, making some modifications to the bootloader configuration
<evand> these are just to add things like persistence support, removing the "remove the CD and press enter to continue" message, and a hint to the alternate installer that you're using a USB disk as an install source
<evand> It also, if you elect to specify a persistence size, writes a persistence file to the USB disk
<homy> QUESTION: <weboide> does it support any cdimage of ubuntu and any distro?
<evand> this will allow you to make changes to the booted usb disk and have them save even after you've rebooted
<evand> It supports any Ubuntu derived distribution
<evand> It *might*  work with Debian CDs, but I honestly haven't tested that
<evand> It will work with both desktop and alternate Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Mythbuntu, and Xubuntu CDs for both i386 and amd64 archs.
<homy> QUESTION: <janitux> the persistence is only for files inside the user's home, or it can save changes like apps or changes in the theme?
<evand> It's the entire filesystem, so you can install programs, change the wallpaper, write documents, etc
<evand> casper (the live CD initramfs) supports making only home persistent, but usb-creator only supports making all of / persistent at the moment
<evand> Continuing, once usb-creator finishes, you can reboot your computer with the USB disk inserted and boot from it
<evand> you may have to enter your boot menu to access it
<evand> it operates much like a regular Ubuntu CD does
<evand> except, as mentioned, your changes are saved, assuming you enabled persistence
<evand> Onto future plans...
<evand> It has always been the plan to support usb-creator on GNOME, KDE, and Windows, but it was only feasible to develop the initial GNOME frontend in the 8.10 cycle.
<evand> That said, KDE and Windows frontends are planned for 9.04, with a branch already created by a contributor to start work on the former.
<evand> I have not planned a Mac frontend and backend at this time as it is my understanding that Apple's firmware is broken and does not properly support booting "legacy" operating systems from USB devices.
<evand> However I cannot test this beyond my somewhat aging 2006 iMac and have been unable to dig up much information on the problem.  If anyone has experience in this area or knows more about the issue, please let me know.
<evand> In addition to new frontends and backends, after discussions with probono and the ubuntu-devel mailing list, it was decided that we should embed gnome-app-install into usb-creator to allow the user to select additional software to include on the USB disk:
<evand> The full thread on that can be found here: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2008-October/026698.html
<evand> Obviously, bug fixing is going to be a major focus in further development.
<evand> A number of early users ran into problems when using usb-creator because it only wrote a bootloader to the partition it was being installed on, rather than the MBR of the device.
<evand> This was decided as part of the goal as being as unintrusive as possible (it also only formats the device if it really has to and will happily coexist with other files on a vfat partition).
<evand> Unfortunately, many scenarios require that a bootloader be written to the MBR, and during the final release candidate freeze, I changed usb-creator to always write a bootloader to the MBR, but it was unfortuantely too late to get the change in the 8.10 final release.
<evand> However, you can expect it and additional bug fixes in a Stable Release Update of usb-creator soon, as well as a backport of that update to 8.04.1.
<evand> Some thoughts on getting involved...
<evand> There has already been a few new branches of usb-creator created to fix bugs, add new functionality, and even provide new frontends.  I encourage anyone interested in helping to develop usb-creator to branch off of trunk and start poking around the source code:
<evand> bzr branch lp:usb-creator usb-creator.trunk
<evand> I lurk in #ubuntu-installer and can answer any usb-creator development questions you have there, or via private message.
<evand> If you encounter any bugs in usb-creator, please file them here:
<evand> http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/usb-creator/+bugs
<evand> Please look to see if your bug has already been filed though.
<evand> At a minimum I will need a detailed description of the problem in order to fix it.
<evand> The output of hal-device as an attachment and sudo parted /dev/sdb print (where sdb is your usb disk) often helps
<evand> One final note...
<evand> I suspect many of you are not aware that Canonical is selling USB disks with Ubuntu (and 3GB of persistent storage) on them via its international shop (http://shop.canonical.com) and very soon on its US shop (http://usshop.ubuntu.com).
<evand> Having been tasked with generating the images for these disks using usb-creator, I've spent a fair amount of time using them and can attest to their build quality.  I've never owned a usb disk (and I've had a fair number of them) that felt as solid as these do.
<evand> It makes no difference to me if you buy one, but I figured I'd mention them as I was thoroughly impressed with the design and would pick up one myself if I didn't already have a test copy :)
<evand> Apologies for kind of speeding through this, but I wanted to leave plenty of time for questions as this is a very new project and I suspect there may be quite a few.
<evand> So, any questions?
<evand> QUESTION: < Inteysedut> "starting up" followed by freeze what can I do?
<evand> (turning that into a question myself ;)
<evand> Please file a bug.  Attach the output of `ps auxf` and strace -p $PID -o strace.log where pid is the process ID of install.py
<evand> the strace command will run as long as usb-creator is running, so just let it run for about a minute or so and then Ctrl-C it
<evand> jcastro: can you +v homy again?
<evand> QUESTION: Is it working in kubuntu now?
<evand> There is no Kubuntu frontend yet.
<evand> It's in development for 9.04
<evand> There was an issue running usb-creator from Kubuntu (it was missing dependencies)
<evand> That should have been fixed in usb-creator 0.1.10
<evand> If it still doesn't work in Kubuntu, please attach ~/.usb-creator and /var/crash/*usb-creator* to a new bug report.
<homy> QUESTION: <johnsgruber> How new does a computer need to be to be able to boot from USB?
<evand> It just needs to be able to boot from USB disks
<evand> you can usually find this out by entering the boot menu on your computer
<evand> and if it has an option like "USB device" then you should be able to use usb-creator just fine
<evand> I suspect any computer made within the past 3-4 years will be ok, but I could be horribly, horrbily wrong :)
<evand> horribly*
<homy> QUESTION: <knome> Even if I couldn't boot from USB stick, I can create a CD with a boot menu, right?
<evand> Not using usb-creator, but yes, there are instructions on the wiki for customizing Ubuntu CDs...
<evand> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/LiveCDCustomization
<evand> oh
<evand> I think I misread the question
<evand> It depends on what your BIOS supports
<evand> But yes, you might be able to get away with chainloading to the usb disk
<homy> QUESTION: <ilia> Can I somehow use this project results to install from locally downloaded iso image, booting from locally installed grub, i.e. I can't boot from CD/USB but already have some ext3 partition to put iso on
<evand> usb-creator only looks for USB disks (and SD cards soon)
<evand> but, you could dump the contents of an Ubuntu CD to an ext3 partition
<homy> QUESTION: <janitux> Can i create an iso based on the usb stick?
<evand> and install a bootloader to that, assuming you point the bootloader to the kernel and initrd
<evand> you'd be better off with a vfat partition as then you could use syslinux
<evand> janitux: I'm not sure I understand your question, but the wiki page I posted above will let you create a custom CD and you should be able to use a USB disk that usb-creator made as a source for that.
<homy> Question: <sudobash> For a USB Live Virus Scanning Tool what distro would you recommend and if there is a specific tool like the ClamAV Live CD/USB I would be interested...
<evand> Of course I would recommend Ubuntu ;), but I am biased.  In future versions of usb-creator you'll be able to add the clamav packages from the archive, but if you're looking for a solution now, or something more tightly integrated to the USB disk (such as having a clamav scan in the boot menu) I'd suggest looking at one of the existing options
<evand> I'm not very familiar with whats out there, otherwise I'd suggest one
<jcastro> (10 minute warning!)
<evand> thanks jcastro
<evand> Any last questions?
<homy> SEMI-QUESTION: <knome> I was mostly referring to http://www.gnu.org/software/grub/manual/html_node/Making-a-GRUB-bootable-CD_002dROM.html , because I've been recently working with a laptop which can't boot from USB, but the user wants a USB-based Ubuntu installation
<homy> QUESTION: <komputes> Creating a persistent install on USB key - Can I make an installation on Ubuntu on a HDD, boot from live cd afterwards and create a disk image of the installation using dd, take the outputted ISO and pass it onto a key using usb-creator.
<evand> knome: Could work, but I have not tried it myself.  The image usb-creator makes is like any other live CD produced by Ubuntu, so any bootloader should work, provided you point it at your kernel and initrd off the USB disk
<homy> QUESTION: <Inteysedut> Can i create a usb stick with two or more distros to boot from, given the space on my drive is big enough? ..lets say id like xubuntu for old PCs at work, and my plain ubuntu for faster machines on the other end of hte office?
<evand> komputes: sort of.  You will need to prepare an initramfs, but you could take an existing system as the source for the squashfs
<evand> See the wiki link I posted above on live CD customization
<evand> Inteysedut: This would be something you would have to do yourself, usb-creator does not support this, but I believe there's at least one project to put multiple distros on a single medium
<evand> I'd look into them as a starting point
<evand> Ok, I'm going to wrap it up here as we're almost out of time.  If you have any additional questions, feel free to email the Installer Team mailing list ubuntu-installer@lists.ubuntu.com, or ask in #ubuntu-installer.
<jcastro> ok thanks evan!
<evand> Thanks for your time and good luck with all of your USB disk projects!
* jcastro changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Current Session: Cruft. What is it and why it sucks and cruft workshop | Welcome to Openweek, questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat please || Session details here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
<jcastro> we'll take a few minute break before NCommander takes the floor
 * NCommander nods to jcastro 
<NCommander> Hello, and welcome to the Cruft 101 lesson here in #ubuntu-classroom
<NCommander> I'm your host, NCommander, also known as Michael Casadevall and sonicmctails. I'm an MOTU, and the founder of the ubuntu-cruft-buster team on Launchpad
<NCommander> As you are all still here, I expect your dying to learn the ins and outs of cruft in the Ubuntu archive
 * NCommander waits for jcastro to -m the room
<NCommander> Ok, you can all talk freely :-)
<NCommander> If you have any questions at a given moment, feel free to ask them
<NCommander> Anyway, archive cruft is the Ubuntu equivalent to things like junk and other old pieces one might find in the closest
<NCommander> *closet
<NCommander> They don't directly hurt anyone, but it is undesirable, and removing cruft is a priority of all Ubuntu Developers, some more so than others
<NCommander> Cruft, roughly defined, is a package or packages that are no longer used or needed in the Ubuntu archive
<NCommander> In most cases, these are software libraries, but normal programs also are subject to cruft removal.
<NCommander> Cruft accumulation is a normal part of software development, as software grows and matures, cruft will be generated
<NCommander> But how it is generated is something we'll come back to in a minute
<NCommander> To understand cruft, you need to understand what reverse-dependencies, or rdepends are
<NCommander> For anyone who has ever installed a piece of software on Ubuntu, you know that one program is often dependent on other bits of software
<NCommander> These dependent bits are a packages dependencies
<NCommander> rdepends are packages that depend on one specific package
<NCommander> For instance, X11 is an rdepends of GNOME, or XFCE, or KDE (this is on a very simple level, but the concept applies with concept management)
<NCommander> To remove cruft from an archive, that piece of cruft must have no reverse-dependencies that aren't also being removed
<NCommander> rdepends can be checked with the apt-cache command
<NCommander> When you run apt-cache rdepends on a package, it lists all the reverse dependencies of that package, or none if there are none
<NCommander> A good example is libwxgtk2.4, an old wxGTK library which is very close to be ready for removal from the archive is libwxgtk2.4-1
<NCommander> On my system, I get the following output:
<NCommander> mcasadevall@blacksteel:~/src/sponsoring$ apt-cache rdepends libwxgtk2.4-1
<NCommander> libwxgtk2.4-1
<NCommander> Reverse Depends:
<NCommander>   python-wxgtk2.4
<NCommander>   libwxgtk2.4-dev
<NCommander>   libwxgtk2.4-1-contrib
<NCommander>   ctsim
<NCommander> As the wxgtk2.4 packages are slated for removal, that leaves ctsim the only package that would have to be migrated to a new wxGTK to remove 2.4 as cruft
<NCommander> Now, by this point, you must be wondering how cruft ends up in the archive
<NCommander> There are usually two main ways, when a package is updated, and a library's soname is bumped, OR when a libraries API changes to the point that we need a seperate package for that library
<NCommander> sonames define the ABI, or Application Binary Interface of a library
<NCommander> In laymans terms, the ABI is how other applications access functions and code of a library
<NCommander> As long as an ABI is unchanged, any programs that link against that library will continue to work even when that library is updated
<NCommander> I realize I'm going kinda fast, does anyone have any questions?
<NCommander> (before I continue)
<NCommander> Ok, I'm going to assume no questions and continue
<NCommander> ABIs change whenever a upstream maintainer does something to change the prototypes of a library
<NCommander> Prototypes are entry points into a library, they say how a program can access it, and how many bits of data it will accept via pointers.
<NCommander> When these prototypes change, programs calling the old prototype fails
<NCommander> (this sometimes shows up as Can not resolve symbol error)
<NCommander> Prototypes change because a maintainer adds or removes a feature, or changes the size of the data a function can take (i.e., replacing a int with a long)
<NCommander> When this happens, the library maintainer is supposed to bump the soname to show that an ABI break has happened, and any packages that rdepend on it must be transitioned
<NCommander> Now if your exceptionally lucky, the upstream maintainer has not changed the Application Programming Interface, or API
<NCommander> APIs are like blueprints, they tell a program, at compile time how to call a libraries methods and functions
<NCommander> A more realistic scenario is that whatever application rdepended on your library, it will likely need tweaking (or in some cases, full out porting)
<NCommander> Actually doing porting is outside the scope of this discussion, and in most cases unneccessarily fortunately
<NCommander> (exceptions do exist, for instance gtk1.2 -> 2)
<NCommander> Whenever an ABI break happens, we need to do a transition to move all packages from the old version of the library to the new
<NCommander> These happen in two forms, NBS (Not Built From Source), or multiple libraries packaged seperately
<NCommander> NBS is the most common, so we will look at that first
<NCommander> Now for those of you who attended Packaging 101, you may be wondering how a package in Ubuntu can't be built from source
<NCommander> The answer is your right, no package can exist without its assiocated source package. NBS more properly defined are Packages that are no longer built from current source packages
<NCommander> For instance, lets say I have liba0 in the archive
<NCommander> (all library packages have a libname0, and a libname-dev package, or something similar)
<NCommander> If the upstream maintainer releases a new version with a soname break
<NCommander> I'll now have a liba1 and a liba-dev, instead of a liba0, and a liba-dev
<NCommander> Now since liba-dev depends on the new liba1, installing it pulls in the new package
<NCommander> The old library, since it is no longer built from the liba source package becomes a NBS library
<NCommander> In some cases, doing the transition is as trival as a no-changes upload to cause Launchpad to rebuild your package against the new API
<NCommander> *ABI
<NCommander> In other cases, you'll likely have to tweak the package to get it build, or (more likely) package a newer upstream or sync a newer upstream from Debian
<NCommander> Once all rdepends on a NBS library are removed
<NCommander> The library magicially go poof via an NBS cleaner script run by your handy dandy archive administrators
<NCommander> (or in other words, they remove themselves)
<NCommander> In some cases however, NBS is not possible or apporiate
<NCommander> This is normally the case for packages with a tremendous number of rdepends, or ones who have API breaks to the point that each rdepend requires manual porting to get working
<NCommander> (gtk1.2, and wxgtk2.4/2.6 are good examples of these in the archive)
<NCommander> In that case, what will happen, you will end up with multiple binary and -dev packages
<NCommander> To do the transition, each rdepend must be downloading, its build-dependencies changed, build testing, installed, etc.
<NCommander> In some cases, this will be as change it and build it, with no other necessary changes
<NCommander> In others, it may require working with upstream authors to port their code (or if the package is dead upstream, doing the work yourself for a cruft free future)
<NCommander> Any questions so far?
<NCommander> I'll assume no, and continue onward
<NCommander> Once you have finished removing all the rdepends of a package, you need to actually remove it from the archive
<NCommander> Unlike NBS packages, oldlibs do not automagicially remove themselves when their dependencies are removed
<NCommander> Manual intervention from the archive administrators are required
<NCommander> This is known as a Removal Request
<NCommander> Removal Requests state if a source or binaries are being remove, what distributions to remove them from (usually only the current development), and why, as well as confirmed there are no rdepends left of that package
<NCommander> As with all packages related tasks
<NCommander> Removal requests must be done or at least ACKed by an MOTU for universe/multiverse, or a core developer for main/restricted
<NCommander> (it should be noted that a direct removal from main is extremely rare, usually the package will be demoted to universe, then removed)
<NCommander> Removals are a two step package
<NCommander> er
<NCommander> process :-)
<NCommander> Beside the actual removal of the package from Ubuntu, the blacklist file may also be updated
<NCommander> As anyone running Jaunty knows, packages are pulled from Debian for roughly the first three-four months of a development build cycle (this is known as autosync)
<NCommander> The autosync blacklist does extactly what it says on the tin
<NCommander> If a package is blacklisted, unless an MOTU or coredev do an explicate sync request that package will not be pulled over from Debian
<NCommander> Speaking of Debian, I should briefly bring up how Debian does transitions
<NCommander> Just like Ubuntu, Debian goes through transitions (all distributions do)
<NCommander> Unlike Ubuntu, rebuilding binary packages on Debian do not require a no-changes source upload
<NCommander> Debian does whats called a binNMU, or binary Non-Maintainer Upload
<NCommander> These packages are versioned with a +bX in the deb
<NCommander> For most intents and purposes, you can pretend these do not exist, but if your looking for hints on how to transition a package, seeing if Debian has done any recent binNMUs on said package or its rdepends is a good place to start
<NCommander> (the changelog is also another good place to start)
<NCommander> I've covered a lot of information thus far in the last 43 minutes
<NCommander> I'd like to open the floor to any questions (I've covered all the basics, but I bet a bunch of you are scratching your heads)
<sudobash> 3+.
<NCommander> sudobash, shoot
<sudobash> sorry accident...
 * NCommander facepalms
<NCommander> Seriously, no questions? I finished my basic overview of cruft, and I was willing to work on doing some hands on cruft removal if anyone was interested
<NCommander> Anyway, if you have any questions about cruft, feel free to ping me on IRC< or any of the cruft buster team members
<artir> QUESTION: When removing cruft packages from user's pcs, what is used: apt-get remove or apt-get remove --purge ?
<NCommander> artir, excellent question
<NCommander> If your removing a cruft package directly, apt-get remove *cruftlib* works like you expect it to
<NCommander> If a package has no dependencies is installed, and it was installed as part of another package, the next time apt-get remove --purge is run, it is removed
<NCommander> artir, does that answer your question?
<artir> yep, thanks :)
<NCommander> MadsRH, you had a question?
<MadsRH> QUESTION: Not a very technicalÂ question, but I was just looking at "Remove Cruft" in the menu and why did you decide to use that icon? I really don't see the link to removing cruft. Is it just a temporary icon or is it there to stay?
<NCommander> MadsRH, where specifically is the Remove Cruft?
<NCommander> In Synaptic?
<jcastro> I think he's mixing up what your topic is with the cruft remover app that shipped with intrepid
<NCommander> Oh!
<MadsRH> system -> admin. -> remove cruft
<NCommander> gtk-cruft-removal (now gtk-system-cleaner) is something completely different ;-)
<MadsRH> Sorry :-[ Just jumped in!
<NCommander> MadsRH, thats fine
<NCommander> I guess that does it on cruft
 * knome applauds for NCommander 
<NCommander> I did have some work showing actual examples of cruft hands of, if people are interested in that
<RainCT> nice explanation, NCommander :)
<charlie-tca> Thank you
<artir> so the biggest problem to deal with cruft is to know what is, actually, cruft
<NCommander> artir, with some experience, it becomes more clear
<NCommander> also, there is an oldlibs category for packages that are cruft
<NCommander> but still have rdepends thus unremovable
<charlie-tca> <gscholz> QUESTION: Is the cruft workshop already running? (five past nine)
<NCommander> charlie-tca, No it isn't, it didn't seem like anyone was active (this is more interactive than the previous)
<charlie-tca> I just forwarded from gscholz
<NCommander> I'd be glad to do the workshop, but its not something I can just stand here and do, its something thats sorta interactive and such :-/
<NCommander> well
<NCommander> The people demand it
<jcastro> heh
<NCommander> Thus I shall talk
<fabrice_sp> I wiould be interested, but if I am the only one :-/
 * NCommander clears throat
<fabrice_sp> really :-)
<NCommander> Lets take a look at the oldlibs cruft sections of both Debian and Ubuntu
<charlie-tca> I'll forward the questions if you want
<NCommander> charlie-tca, yes, please
<NCommander> http://packages.ubuntu.com/jaunty/oldlibs/ - Ubuntu's oldlibs
<NCommander> and packages.debian.org seems to be down :-/
<NCommander> (or lagging
<NCommander> http://packages.debian.org/unstable/oldlibs/
<NCommander> and there we go
<fabrice_sp> question: how is this list populated? Automatically?
<NCommander> fabrice_sp, its when the section in the control file is set to oldlibs
<NCommander> Usually the Debian QA team will set it, and then that change trickles down to Ubuntu
<NCommander> oldlibs is sorta the long term storage of cruft
<NCommander> Its things we want to toss but can't get rid of due to rdepends
<NCommander> There is actually a good example of cruft here, liblzo1
<NCommander> http://packages.ubuntu.com/jaunty/oldlibs/liblzo1
<NCommander> http://packages.debian.org/unstable/oldlibs/liblzo1
<NCommander> The changelog the best reason to see why a library has ended up here
<NCommander> CHecking the rdepends on liblzo1, on jaunty, we get:
<NCommander> Reverse Depends:
<NCommander>   transcode
<NCommander>   liblzo-dev
<NCommander>   liblzo-dev
<NCommander>   dact
<NCommander> we can safely ignore liblzo-dev since its part of the packaging itself
<NCommander> Which leaves dact, and transcode as the two real rdepends
<charlie-tca> <canta> why is cruft a problem?
<NCommander> canta, another good question. Cruft is a problem because it increases the size of the archive, the amount of maintaince required to maintain it, and the work the security team needs to do to keep things going
<NCommander> I'm currently working on migrating the dact package
<persia> Also, there's usually bugs fixed in newer libraries and still extant in the older libraries, but perhaps hard to fix, if say, the fix required an API change.
<charlie-tca> <gscholz> QUESTION: Sorry I missed the last session. How did you get the backward dependencies for liblzo?
<NCommander> gscholz, apt-cache rdepends liblzo1
<NCommander> canta, why don't you ask your question here
 * NCommander thinks its saner if we base this all in a single change
<fabrice_sp> question: how do you know what is the new version? From packages.ubuntu.com?
<NCommander> fabrice_sp, yeah, I searched for liblzo, then found it
<NCommander> Its usually pretty obvious what the new package is once you see it
<NCommander> now dact is actually a great example
<NCommander> I recommend anyone who actually wants to experience doing a transition now grab the source package (please note, I'm doing this on intrepid/jaunty. If your using hardy, your millage may vary :-))
<NCommander> You'll also want the devscripts, and build-essential packages (and apt-get build-dep dact && apt-get install liblzo2-dev)
<NCommander> Once you grab the source package, and its build-deps, I recommend creating a new changelog entry with dch -i
<NCommander> For my changelog, I used this:   * Changed rdepend liblzo -> liblzo2 to remove dependency on oldlibs
<NCommander> then open debian/control, find the liblzo-dev dependency, and change it to liblzo2-dev
<NCommander> Save, and build
<NCommander> If done correctly, you should have a dact_0.8.41-4ubuntu1 package
<canta> and how does it help if i do something alike with such packages? i cant put them into the ubuntu-archive
<NCommander> canta, huh?
<NCommander> I don't understand
<NCommander> If you referring to getting the package into the Ubuntu archive itself, there is a process known as sponsoring to do extactly that
<canta> So i can easily "pay" the community back if i would do transitions?
<NCommander> canta, its a good way to get involved, As we're very close to archive open, we don't have any ones going on, but usually a large transition or two happens from time to time where people need to others to test packages, and help build them
<fabrice_sp> Shouldn't we also update the Maintainer field and the Standard-version one? Or send the debdiff to Debian?
<NCommander> fabrice_sp, normally for no-code changes transitions, its a bug on the BTS, to make the change. Generally speaking, you don't post a debdiff to the BTS unless your doing a non-maintainer upload in debian
<NCommander> fabrice_sp, and yes, you would do all the normal work you do when you normally create a patch
<fabrice_sp> ok
<gscholz> QUESTION: So this was quite easy, but only because the library API did not change from liblzo1 to liblzo2?
<NCommander> gscholz, the changelog of liblzo says the API did change, but dact doesn't use any changed APIs
<NCommander> (aka, a recompile will fix it)
<gscholz> OK
<NCommander> while we've been talking, I actually been testing dact against a bunch of files and checking to see if it works right
<NCommander> (it does :-))
<NCommander> SO this change will land in jaunty hopefully relatively soon
<NCommander> Now, assuming transcode doesn't need any magic to get going against liblzo2, the next step would be to file a removal request
<NCommander> Now as we can't actually zap a package from the archive, I'll simply find an old request to show you the elements of a request
<NCommander> if LP will work today
 * NCommander grumbles
<NCommander> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ncurses4.2/+bug/269722
<ubot5`> Launchpad bug 269722 in ncurses4.2 "Request for Removal: unneeded oldlibs" [Undecided,Fix released]
<NCommander> That's what a removal request by a non-MOTU looks like (as I was at the time)
<fabrice_sp> (Motu since 5 hours! Congrats :-) )
<NCommander> Thats transitions in a nutshell
<gscholz> QUESTION: We had the same topic yesterday. When you work on Ubuntu like this, how does the result go back to debian (which is "package-upstream")?
<NCommander> ah
<NCommander> ANother good question
<NCommander> Usually with oldlibs transitions, its file a bug and a patch (if needed) and leave it as so
<NCommander> SOmetimes Debian will match us on a transition ... and sometimes they won't
<gscholz> QUESTION: I guess Debian should not spend the same afford? So you will make a patch and send it to Debian?
<gscholz> QUESTION: I am not quite clear about, how communication works here.
<NCommander> gscholz, Debian uses BTS (Bug Tracking System) to handle bugs
<NCommander> You can use the 'reportbug --BTS=debian' command to file bugs on their tracker
<gscholz> OK
<fabrice_sp> Question: I was trying to the same for transcode, but the resulting package FTBFS, so in this case, it's patching time? Or I should report upstream?
<fabrice_sp> s/to/to do/
<NCommander> fabrice_sp, patching time :-)
<fabrice_sp> :-)
<fabrice_sp> Another question: How do we know if someone is already working on trying to remove oldlibs? Looking for bugs in launchpad?
<persia> Just as a side note, if you patch code to migrate to a new version of a library, upstream is usually glad to receive the patch, and will probably include it in the next release.
<NCommander> fabrice_sp, LP bugs is the offical mechanism to know who's doing what
<NCommander> fabrice_sp, just check the package, and see if there is a bug about removal or something similar
<jcastro> (5 minute warning)
<NCommander> jcastro, we're done
<jcastro> \o/
<jcastro> thanks NCommander!
<jcastro> and congratulations on becoming a MOTU!
<fabrice_sp> Thanks NCommander!
<charlie-tca> good job, NCommander
<jcastro> we'll take 5 before the next session
 * mneptok turns on the elevator music
<NCommander> jcastro, what's up next?
<gscholz> Thanks NCommander
* jcastro changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Current Session: Ubuntu and your Money | Welcome to Openweek, questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat please || Session details here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
<jcastro> This one is called Ubuntu and Your Money
<jcastro> starring Kurt von Finck
<jcastro> aka mneptok
<mneptok> \o/
<jcastro> "How to make smart buying decisions as a free software user. Covers hardware, software, support, and services. "
<jcastro> I have been looking forward to this one!
<NCommander> oooh
<mneptok> jcastro: i was asked not to dance half naked on the tables. still looking forward to it?
<NCommander> sounds interesting
<mneptok> everyone ready?
<jcastro> ok, I will paste questions from #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<jcastro> so please post your questions there
<jcastro> mneptok: take it away!
<mneptok> LET'S ROCK!
<mneptok> Hello everyone, my name is Kurt von Finck. I'm an Ubuntu Member, as well as a Senior Ubuntu System Support Analyst for Canonical. I'll be discussing how, as a user of Free Software, you can make informed and smart buying decisions.
<mneptok> I want to point out that although I am a Canonical employee, I am speaking today solely as a community member. Canonical does not endorse hardware products that have not been through the certification process, and certainly does not make specific vendor recommendations. I'll be using some examples during the session, and these are just that, examples.
<mneptok> Please pay attention to the methodology and principles involved, and do not assume that because I use Dell, Valusoft, Newegg, Amazon, or some other vendor as an example that this is an official endorsement by Canonical.
<mneptok> You will hear me discuss some strategies you might use to advance the cause of Free Software. Clearly, Canonical would benefit from this, as well. But rest assured, my interest and purpose here is to inform and educate, and thus benefit all users of Free Software, not just Ubuntu users or Canonical's business interests.
<mneptok> Also, I will be talking about Canonical's support offerings. For this section of the session, you may expect that I am acting as an official Canonical spokesperson. But please, remember that for other sections, I'm a community member.
<mneptok> Finally, about questions. I'd like to save these until the end (please jcastro), and I will NOT be entertaining "what printer do I buy, mneptok?!?!" type questions. :) Sorry, but I think that's a rat's nest I'll sidestep. But feel free to ask about strategies for printer shopping (or similar).
<mneptok> Phew! Caveats are out of the way! Let's go!
<mneptok> First, I want to be clear that this session is not intended to provide an in-depth look at hardware and software support. It's a basic "best practices" guide to making informed decisions. Also, a lot of this content may be moot in a few years. This is more a "Current State Of Affairs" talk than it is a timeless reference guide.
<mneptok> Let's start with hardware, which is traditionally the biggest hurdle new users of Free Software face. Being fairly active on IRC, I see a lot of new Ubuntu users coming to grips with the fact that the world that they have entered is rather different from the world of Windows which most of them have left. Let's do a quick comparison.
<mneptok> In the world of Windows, you are strictly a consumer. Products are created for you, and you pay to be able to have the right to use them. This is a very traditional business model, and the idea of how profit can be created from such a model is well understood. Thus, most hardware manufacturers understand how they can profit from the Windows ecosystem, and they actively participate in it.
<mneptok> Also, Windows has a vast majority of the market share for operating systems. This also encourages vendors to focus on providing solutions for Windows, as their potential profit center is much larger.
<mneptok> However, as we all know, hardware does not "Just Work" on Windows. Sure, almost every device you can find has a Windows driver, but a substantial portion of these have a *not very good* Windows driver. The web is rife with examples of users encountering the frustration this causes. That new inkjet printer just doesn't provide output that looks quite right. The USB PCI card driver works, but somehow disables the internal USB. The ...
<mneptok> ... webcam operates, but the picture quality is far below what the hardware is capable of.
<mneptok> If you have used Windows for any length of time, I'm sure you know the, "I know this is a good piece of hardware, but the driver renders it almost useless," sentiment.
<mneptok> (That's almost worth a ;) but really it deserves a :/ )
<mneptok> In the Free Software world things are quite different. Vendors that understand the open source model and embrace it are at a distinct advantage. First, if they open their drivers or hardware specifications, they allow a horde of skilled, yet unpaid, volunteers to work to refine and debug drivers. Second, their hardware drivers, if released under a GPLv2 compatible license, are allowed directly into the Linux kernel. In the case ...
<mneptok> ... of the BSDs (Free, Open, Net, etc), the driver needs to be BSD compatible.
<mneptok> Sadly, few vendors have taken this approach. But some have. Thus the situation roughly looks like this. If you use Windows, almost every device will work. However, few will work to their potential. If you use Linux, fewer devices work. But those that do work tend to do so fairly well. Make sense?
<mneptok> Having your driver in the mainline kernel has distinct advantages. Let's use Intel as a victim ... err ... example here. :)
<mneptok> A few years ago, Intel decided that they were first and foremost a hardware company. Thus, keeping drivers closed and secret was not in the best interest of their hardware business, which seeks as broad a base of adoption as possible. Intel released full design specs for their chipsets: CPUs, bridgesets, graphic adapters, and 802.11x, for example.
<mneptok> The license Intel chose allows these open drivers to compiled into and distributed with the Linux kernel. This has a few effects.
<mneptok> First, it means Linux developers started poking through the driver code and making improvements and tweaks, and/or filing bug reports against code they could see. This led to more robust drivers. Second, it means that if you have an Intel graphics adapter or wireless chipset, your devices "Just Work" in Linux. I have a Lenovo laptop with the Intel GMA965 graphics adapter and 4965BGN wireless chips. When I install Ubuntu, my ...
<mneptok> ... wireless card works immediately, and I have 3D and compositing immediately.
<mneptok> Contrast this to Broadcom, who regard themselves as purveyors of both hardware and software. They write their own drivers, and will not share the specs necessary to allow others to do driver development. Broadcom chooses not to write Linux or BSD drivers. Thus, getting Broadcom wireless working in Free Software has always been painful, and usually involves somehow "wrapping" the Windows driver so it works. Ugly.
<mneptok> So, if you choose an Intel wireless chipset, you install Ubuntu, another Linux, or a type of BSD and everything works right away. If you choose a Broadcom chipset, you have no such guarantee. In fact, it is far more likely you will have problems than that you will eventually make things work.
<mneptok> I am NOT disparaging Broadcom here. They have made a business decision. From OUR seats this decision seems flawed. But none of us are truly in a position to say for sure what the best business plan is for any company. Perhaps time will vindicate their position. Perhaps it will affirm ours. But until then, let's not cast aspersions needlessly. Let's keep a civil relationship with these businesses, so they continue to find our ...
<mneptok> ... input credible and valuable. 'Nuff said.
<mneptok> So, now that you have an idea of how this works, let's look at what manufacturers have made business decisions that make their products attractive to Free Software users.
<mneptok> If you are buying a new machine on which to run Ubuntu it's tough to do much better than buying from an OEM that has partnered with Canonical. These vendors send their products through certification, and thus you may depend that they run Ubuntu without issue. A Dell, System76, Sylvania, or other product with Ubuntu pre-installed will give you a great "out-of-the-box" experience, for obvious reasons.
<mneptok> You can look in on the Canonical certification process at: http://webapps.ubuntu.com/certification
<mneptok> This holds true for other Free Software offerings. eRacks, a server vendor, offers a variety of Free Software operating system options on their products; including Ubuntu, CentOS, OpenBSD, and others. It's a fairly safe bet that eRacks has tested their equipment and has determined that the products they sell you work with the OSes they offer as options.
<mneptok> So, if you're buying a new machine, and want the easiest path to a system supported by Free Software, choose a vendor who has chosen Free Software. But what about if you're choosing a vendor without Free Software offerings, building your own, or adding components to an existing machine? Whose products do you choose? Again, choosing a vendor who has chosen to support Free Software is the best course of action.
<mneptok> Intel is the poster child here. If you are buying a new machine you can't do much better than choosing Intel graphics and wireless. Intel's realization that they are first and foremost a hardware company, and that they trust the worldwide community of developers to help create robust driver sets for their products, makes them the clear choice of Free Software users.
<mneptok> However, Intel does not provide much in the way of aftermarket products. Meaning, it's relatively easy to choose a motherboard with integrated Intel devices, but less easy to locate add-in Intel devices. The exception, mini-PCI Express wireless devices, proves the rule.
<mneptok> http://www.amazon.com/Intel-wireless-3945ABG-Network-Connection/dp/B000EDQOK8/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1225993082&sr=8-1
<mneptok> http://www.amazon.com/Wireless-Wifi-Link-Mini-Card/dp/B000QAY00K/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=automotive&qid=1225994628&sr=8-2
<mneptok> You can add-in Intel wireless, but Intel provides no add-in graphics. So, if you're looking at adding graphics and wireless options that are supported by Free Software, things become a little more complicated.
<jcastro> andresmujica: please hold questions until the end
<mneptok> For graphics, the two big players are nVidia and AMD/ATI. It used to be (just a few months ago) that nVidia was a somewhat better choice. nVidia does not offer Free drivers. They offer the same kind of driver support for Linux that they offer for Windows. Namely, they provide a closed-source driver that enables 3D and other advanced features.
<mneptok> This approach is commonly called a "binary blob." The vendor supplies a driver, but does not provide access to the source code. Many Free Software advocates find this approach reprehensible, for obvious reasons. However, being pragmatic, users have needs, and if nVidia's binary approach suits your needs, then by all mean avail yourself of it.
<mneptok> ATI used to use the same methodology. However, their binary drivers were not as robust as nVidia's in many cases, and that made nVidia somewhat of a better choice. However, the game has changed, as AMD has announced that they will be opening the source to their drivers over the coming months and years. Thus, while at this time last year nVidia seemed the better choice for add-in graphics, this seems to have changed.
<mneptok> Understand, though, that binary blobs means work for the end user after installation. Ubuntu will not distribute code without source as part of the base distribution, and thus you'll need to add restricted drivers after you install to enable things like 3D (necessary for things like Compiz).
<mneptok> Also, be sure to look at the binary blobs before choosing a card. The latest and greatest card may not have support in the drivers provided by the most recent Ubuntu release. Choose a card you can confirm has support in the current Ubuntu restricted packages.
<mneptok> As concerns wireless, the best bet for aftermarket PCI cards are those based on the Atheros chipsets. Atheros is now opening their drivers, and prior to this decision the MadWiFi project reverse engineered Atheros drivers while Atheros turned a blind eye to the potential legal issues (thanks Atheros!). If you're shopping for wireless, and Intel has no options for you, look at the MadWiFi site and compare some of your choices to ...
<mneptok> ... the Compatibility section of their site.
<mneptok> http://madwifi-project.org/wiki/Compatibility
<mneptok> As an example, if you are looking to purchase a Cardbus wireless adapter for use with Ubuntu, the SMC SMCWCB seems to be a good choice according to MadWiFi user reports. Newegg has this card for ~US$26.
<mneptok> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16833129133
<mneptok> Carefully read MadWiFi's compatibility listings. Then look at your preferred vendor's site or retail location and ensure you choose something reported to have worked. Do not trust brand names. Trust specific models and chipsets. This holds true for most devices, not just wireless.
<mneptok> On to printing!
<mneptok> This one is actually pretty easy. OpenPrinting.
<mneptok> http://www.linuxfoundation.org/en/OpenPrinting
<mneptok> OpenPrinting is a project to document the current status quo for printing from Free operating systems. The project was recently brought under the aegis of the Linux Foundation. Their printer database is the best resource for Free Software users looking to purchase a printer they can depend upon.
<mneptok> http://openprinting.org/printer_list.cgi
<mneptok> Determine your needs (e.g. laser vs inkjet, scanning, faxing). Create a short list from your favorite vendor (e.g. Amazon, Newegg, Best Buy). Then look up the models on your short list in the OpenPrinting database. Your choices will narrow, and eventually become clear to you.
<mneptok> Other sites exist that provide a database of devices that work (or do not) in Ubuntu. One example is the Linux USB Device database, which catalogs USB devices and their current support status in Linux:
<mneptok> http://www.qbik.ch/usb/devices/
<mneptok> What about software? Of course, most Ubuntu users do not purchase much software, and instead use the Free Software offerings provided by the package system. If you find yourself considering a purchase of commercial software, ensure you know the vendor's position with regards to Free Software.
<mneptok> In some cases, using an RPM (Red Hat Package Manager) based distribution may be preferable, as this is what the software vendor uses. In some cases (e.g. IBM's db2), Ubuntu may be a better choice as the software vendor has taken steps to ensure compatibility with Ubuntu.
<mneptok> This is a good rule of thumb no matter what OS you use, be it Free Software or not. Know the product. Know the vendor's preferences for OS versions. Know your support options.
<mneptok> What about buying Ubuntu? As many of you may know, Ubuntu is now being offered for purchase at Best Buy. Why would you pay for what you can download for free? Well, precisely because of those support options. Ubuntu is being offered at Best Buy by a company named Valusoft. Valusoft offers 60 days of *starter* support if you buy their CD at Best Buy.
<mneptok> Let's be fair. Valusoft is not going to help you configure a multi-domain mail and web server. :) But they'll help you get things working as best as Ubuntu can on your hardware. They can answer basic questions about installation. Spending that US$20 may be a good idea for someone entirely new to Linux.
<mneptok> Which brings me to other types of support. When you choose Free Software, if you need support, make sure you know what your options are. For instance, if you choose to pay for an entitlement to Red Hat Enterprise Linux, you may rest assured that Red Hat will provide you with support. If you choose Fedora or CentOS, you will need to rely upon either the user community or third-party expertise for support.
<mneptok> Ubuntu falls somewhere in the middle. Like Fedora or CentOS, use of the software does not cost you. Neither does availaing yourself of the free community resources (e.g. IRC or the Ubuntu Forums). You may also purchase commercial support and consulting services from qualified third parties. Some of them are listed in the Ubuntu Marketplace:
<mneptok> http://webapps.ubuntu.com/marketplace/
<mneptok> However, you are also able to purchase support from the corporate entity that helps drive the project, namely Canonical. We have desktop and server contracts, and 9*5 and 24*7 contracts. Our contracts cover 10 cases or 1 year, whichever comes first. And we only guarantee support for packages in the Main repository. Other work is on a "best effort" basis.
<mneptok> As an example, I am currently helping a customer sort out issues with the RealPlayer plugin for Firefox. It may be that "it's broken, and I can't help you further," is the final answer. But this would not be the case with the Totem plugin, which is in Main. However, I'm not going to hang up on a paying customer. I won't let him stand between me and customers with problems with supported packages, but I'll make the effort to help ...
<mneptok> ... him.
<mneptok> Also, Canonical support is not a consulting service. We offer break/fix support. So, "What is Apache and how do I configure it?" is not a support question. "I am running Apache and mod-mneptok reliably crashes the daemon. This is an Apache module you provide by default," will really set off the alarm bells in our office. :)
<mneptok> Canonical support contracts are available in the Canoncial web shop at:
<mneptok> http://shop.canonical.com
<mneptok> WHEW! Didjya get all that?  :D
<jcastro> time for questions?
<mneptok> In conclusion:
<mneptok> - Do research. Know what you're buying. Rely upon the experiences of other users to guide your buying decisions.
<mneptok> - Do not expect to grab any old printer (or mp3 player or other device) and be guaranteed of a satisfactory experience in Linux.
<mneptok> - Know your support options. Know what is supported.
<mneptok> And finally, SPEAK UP! :) Tell vendors you use Ubuntu (or Red Hat or Fedora or NetBSD or SuSE). Tell them you make choices based on an OEMs commitment to providing support for Free Software users. Tell them Canonical (or Red Hat or Novell) has ways to help them get certified and working. Tell them it's time to be open!
<mneptok> Thanks a lot for your attention! I hope this was somewhat helpful to everyone. Let's open the floor to questions! Jorge! Who's my first victim?!  >:)
<jcastro> QUESTION: What happened with the recently Broadcom linux drivers?  http://www.broadcom.com/support/802.11/linux_sta.php
<mneptok> these drivers, like the nVidia drivers, are binary blobs.
<jcastro> (just tell me "next" when you want another question)
<mneptok> a user of these chipsets will face the same hurdles. you'll need to install Ubuntu, then use the wired connection to run updates and install restricted drivers.
<mneptok> if you're OK with that, Broadcom's slightly more open attitude may be palatable to you.
<mneptok> next q?
<jcastro> QUESTION: Apart from the FSF database are there any other resources to find out which hardware works with  Free Software? So not just "works with Ubuntu", which doesn't say anything about blobs or proprietary  software.
<mneptok> there's the OpenPrinting db for printers, and the USB Device DB for USB. i use these extensively.
<mneptok> be aware, the FSF db will not list devices supported by blobs. so that may be a bit misleading as to "what works" and "what works with Free Software."
<mneptok> that answer your question?
<mneptok> (if so, next!) :)
<jcastro> QUESTION: notwithstanding the fact that i love wikis, don't you think perhaps hardware compatibility might  deserve some more organized infrastructure? we have a "hardware compatibility report" utility currently in  Ubuntu, could that be expanded? If users were able (and encouraged by default) to give their hardware's
<jcastro>  compatibility a "scoe" and comments, which would then end up on some public DB, hwhich other users could then  browse, could that
<jcastro> not provide some good community buying advice?
<jcastro> long question!
<mneptok> that smells like LjL. hence, i will have to put on my Batgirl costume to answer ...
<jcastro> heh, it is
<LjL> :>
<mneptok> i agree, a centralized database would be an excellent thing.
<mneptok> i'd like to see such a thing for all Free Software variants. imagine checkboxes [x] Ubuntu || [x] Fedora || [ ] NetBSD
<mneptok> the FSF runs something like this, but as i said, "what works" is sorta different than "what works with pure Free Software"
<mneptok> i imagine most users want "what works," which is a choice i believe they are rightly entitled to make.
<mneptok> so yes, such an idea has a lot of merit, IMO. perhaps we could start such a thing focused on Ubuntu, but expand it to embrace other communities.
<mneptok> any more questions?
<jcastro> <QUESTION> what about the diference between madwifi and ndiswraper ...
<mneptok> MadWifi is a project to reverse engineer drivers for Atheros chipsets.
<mneptok> the drivers supplied by the MadWifi project are designed and built for Linux
<mneptok> ndiswrapper is not a driver. it's a wrapper, or a layer, that acts between the Windows driver and the Linux kernel.
<mneptok> when you use MadWifi drivers you are only using software designed for Linux. when you use ndiswrapper, you use a driver designed for Windows, with what amounts to a traffic cop standing between that driver and the Linux kernel.
<mneptok> next q?
<jcastro> QUESTION: which languages can I get Canonical support in? Can I call you up in Dutch?
<mneptok> currently we officially offer support in English, French, Spanish, and German
<mneptok> so yes, you can speak Deutsch. ;P
<mneptok> (not Dutch) ;)
<jcastro> QUESTION: Is Canonical approaching hardware manufacturers and encourage them to open their?
<jcastro> I assume he means "drivers" at the end of that
<mneptok> i can't say for sure what we're doing in that regard, because that touches on a part of Canonical's business that i do not work in directly.
<mneptok> and if i did, i imagine i couldn;t say anything, anyway. ;)
<jcastro> For lists of supported hardware on Ubuntu see  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HardwareSupport - To help debugging and improving hardware detection, see  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingHardwareDetection
<jcastro> Someone asked about a wiki page for hardware support
<mneptok> but here's my best assumption, based on what i know of the industry ...
<jcastro> so I am putting that in there for reference
<mneptok> say Mnep-O-Net makes wireless controllers.
<mneptok> and they release only binary drivers for Windows. and those chipsets are in *everything*
<mneptok> now, Canonical approaches this company and says, "You need to make Linux drivers available, or open your drivers."
<mneptok> as CEO, i'd ask "why? what we're doing now seems to be working just fine."
<mneptok> and what could Canonical say to that?
<mneptok> (answer: "pretty please? sabdfl will take you on a jet ride. honest!")
<mneptok> not compelling (although sabdfl looks great at 20K feet, man)
<mneptok> BUT ...
<mneptok> say Canonical approaches someone like ... hmmm .... Dell.
<mneptok> and then it's Dell that asks, because they want to keep using the same supply chain for Linux models as they do for Windows models.
<mneptok> now the Mnep-O-Net CEO asks "why?" and Dell says "because we'd like to keep buying 50 million units per year, if we can. if not, Intel over there has ....."
<mneptok> my guess is that this is the approach our team is taking. i have no evidence to base this on, but it seems logical.
<mneptok> make sense?
<jcastro> QUESTION: Are there any other support options beside telephone (chat, remote desktop, ...)?
<mneptok> we handle cases via phone and the web. we have a web support portal that allows customers to create and update cases, and analysts to repsond to them.
<mneptok> we do not currently use IRC, IM, or other real time Internet methods.
<mneptok> any more questions?
<jcastro> time for one more!
<mneptok> woohaa!
<jcastro> wow, I guess you were so thorough that there are no more questions
<mneptok> or people fled when they realized who i was :)
<mneptok> well, thanks everyone!
<charlie-tca> Good information. Thank you.
<samgee> thanks mneptok
<mneptok> i'm an IRC junkie. feel free to find me in Ubuntu channels.
<mneptok> i may not reply right away (paying customers and all) but i will reply.
<jcastro> ok thanks Kurt!
<samgee> whoo, free support :)
<jcastro> thanks everyone for joining in today
<mneptok> thanks for a great OpenWeek Jorge!
* jcastro changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Current Session: See you at 1500UTC for the next session! | Welcome to Openweek, questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat please || Session details here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
<jcastro> we have no sessions until 1500 tomorrow
<jcastro> but people are more than welcome to hang out if they want
<LjL> mneptok: that costume seems to have some sort of hole by the way
<LjL> though i didn't want to interrupt you before
<jcastro> ls -al
<jcastro> oops
<mneptok> LjL: "speed holes"
#ubuntu-classroom 2008-11-07
<Guest66012> anybody there
<YokoZar> Indeed
<Guest66012> your wine session was good
<sg-voodoo> gde oni
<sundown> Hi everyone! Requires the server openvpn for multiple client connections (to link multiple offices), encrypted using the x509 in ubuntu.
<sundown> Need detailed instructions.
 * meborc is away: sauna-party + vana tallinn
<nalioth> meborc: when you return, can you disable the public away message?  Thanks  :)
 * x_dimitri wonders why there's no session in progress
<lordnoid> because it starts now :P
<jcastro_> We will start in a few minutes!
 * x_dimitri thanks jcastro
<dholbach> welcome everybody to another Ubuntu Open Week session!
<dholbach> Who's here for "Fixing a bug in Ubuntu - it's easier than you think"? Raise your hands! :)
<joumetal> o/
 * brobostigon raises his hand
 * homy raises hand
 * lordnoid raises hand too.
<dholbach> ah... let me please know which version of Ubuntu you're running :)
<brobostigon> 7.10 powerpc
 * x_dimitri raises both hands...
<homy> intrepid amd64
 * xander21c 8,10 
<lordnoid> ubuntu 8.10 and xubuntu 8.04 :)_
<johnsgruber> hardy
<Intey> intrepid, mostly "listening" though
 * joumetal is trying jaunty now.
<x_dimitri> ubuntu 8.04
<dholbach> alright - let's get cracking then
<dholbach> please install the following packages first, we're going to need them:
<dholbach>   dpatch fakeroot devscripts pbuilder debhelper
<dholbach> ok... we all want to fix Ubuntu bugs, but first we need to find a few that are probably going to be easy to fix :)
<dholbach> we have a tool called 'Harvest' for that
<dholbach> Harvest itself does not know much about bugs or packages or distros, it's just designed to find "low hanging fruit"
<dholbach> you can find it at http://daniel.holba.ch/harvest
<dholbach> <CuriousMe> QUESTION: Do I need to be on ubuntu machine for this session? I can ssh into one only. enough?
<dholbach> CuriousMe: that should be good enough
<dholbach> I selected a few bugs already, but while I talk a bit more about bugs and fixing them, please do the following (it will take some time to run in the background):
<dholbach> create a file called ~/.pbuilderrc
<dholbach> and put
<dholbach> COMPONENTS="main universe multiverse restricted"
<dholbach> into it
<dholbach> if you installed the files I mentioned above, you should now only have to run
<dholbach>   sudo pbuilder create
<dholbach> to let pbuilder do the hard work of setting up a minimal environment for safely building packages while we're doing something else
<dholbach> if you run into trouble, please say so on #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<dholbach> alright, let's first have a look at http://daniel.holba.ch/harvest/handler.py?pkg=mwavem
<charlie-tca> +
<dholbach> harvest lists a one bugs (it's in two categories) for the mwavem package
<dholbach> so let's all click on the 152712 link
<dholbach> the bug was filed quite a while ago, it seems that something in the init script is wrong
<dholbach> when a bug is a bit older, I always first try to find out "was it fixed in the meantime?"
<dholbach> if you click on the "Overview" link at the top of the page, you will get an overview of the versions in all the Ubuntu releases
<dholbach> does anyone see a changelog entry on the Overview page that might have fixed the issue?
<dholbach> it's this line:
<dholbach>  * Add LSB headers to initscript
<dholbach> in this case we don't need to do anything, just mention that it was fixed in intrepid/jaunty
<dholbach> so if somebody of you wants to close the bug with a friendly message, go ahead... :)
<dholbach> I checked the new package already, the typo the reporter mentioned is fixed there
<dholbach> let's take a look at this URL next:
<dholbach>   http://daniel.holba.ch/harvest/handler.py?pkg=telepathy-haze
<dholbach> it lists one bug that was resolved upstream already
<dholbach> a crasher bug
<dholbach> if you take a look at the last comment in the bug, somebody let us know that it was fixed in the 0.2.1 version of telepathy-haze
<dholbach> if you check the overview page, you will find out that the version made it into intrepid and jaunty too
<dholbach> anyone up for closing the bugs? :)
<dholbach> you might ask: "hang on, this was fixed in a new version of Ubuntu, but what about the old releases?"
<dholbach> does anybody have an answer?
<johnsgruber> It would have to be an SRU, no?
<dholbach> johnsgruber: exactly
<dholbach> SRU stands for Stable Release Updates
<dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates is the wiki page that explains the process for getting fixes into -updates
<dholbach> we're conservative on what we let into -updates, so if there's a severe problem and somebody finds a minimal fix (not a huge new version) to the problem, it will be considered
<dholbach> in the cases above, I'd say: if they're fixed in the new version, we should be good
<dholbach> sorry, replied in the wrong channel :)
<dholbach> <johnsgruber> QUESTION: Do SRU's apply to all of "main universe multiverse restricted" or just a subset?
<dholbach> <dholbach> johnsgruber: good question
<dholbach>  we fix them for all sections of Ubuntu
<dholbach>  it just needs to be justified, somebody needs to be willing to extract the minimal fix, then we upload it into -proposed and after sufficient testing (we don't want to add a regression to the fix) it gets into -updates
<dholbach> ok, I have another example:
<dholbach>  http://daniel.holba.ch/harvest/handler.py?pkg=pyglet
<dholbach> what do we do about this one?
<dholbach> any ideas?
<itnet7> check the upstream release against intrepid
<itnet7> ?
<dholbach> itnet7: did you take a look at the "pyglet overview page"?
<dholbach> you're right, that should be right place
<dholbach> <joumetal> upload (merge?) that package to develpment version?
<thekorn_> assroom-chat
<dholbach> thekorn_: that was rude! :-)
<dholbach> if you click on the "Overview" link of the bug page, you will see that we have the new version in jaunty
<dholbach> <itnet7> Yes that is where I looked and noticed that jaunty is using the Newer release
<thekorn_> sorry, the eeepc has a way to small keyboard ;)
<dholbach> itnet7: good work - can you close the bug?
<dholbach> does anybody know if there's a way we could still get the new pyglet version into intrepid?
<dholbach> <gta47b> dholbach: backports?
<dholbach> gta47b: Exactly!
<dholbach> we have the -backports repositories for all current releases and this link explains how to request one:
<dholbach> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuBackports#How%20to%20request%20new%20packages
<dholbach> <itnet7> dholbach: I haven't really ever closed any bugs before... I would like to close it, but don't want to make a mistake :-P
<dholbach> itnet7: it's good to be careful
<dholbach> so if you click on the yellow bar saying "pyglet (Ubuntu)" it will let you change the status
<dholbach> if you choose friendly words explaining that the new version is in jaunty, but that backporting might be possible and link to the process documentation you should be good
<dholbach> <gta47b> QUESTION: Is there a list of requested backports ?
<dholbach> gta47b: good one... it's a good idea to check if the backport was already requested
<dholbach> gta47b: if you check the process page I linked to above, you will see links to the open backport requests for all current releases
<dholbach> alright... those were all very simple bugs where we could close them without much work
<dholbach> it just requires some detective work to find out "who has been working on that already?"
<dholbach> that detective work is what makes good bug fixers, packagers, maintainers and developers
<dholbach> you've been all very careful and asked good questions - that's great :-)
<dholbach> let's now come to a bit more complicated example
<dholbach> did the pbuilder setup work out alright for all of you?
<dholbach> hands up? :)
<CuriousMe> ^^__^^
<dholbach> excellent... some people replied in -chat as well - let's crack on then :)
<dholbach> let's take a look at http://daniel.holba.ch/harvest/handler.py?pkg=transmission
<dholbach> it lists a lot of bugs that were resolved-upstream and a few fedora patches
<dholbach> let's take 291205 as an example
<dholbach> you will see that the bug is "confirmed" in Ubuntu and that it's "fix released" in the upstream bug tracker
<dholbach> now click on "transmission-trac #1317"
<dholbach> it will take you to the upstream bug tracker
<dholbach> it says the bug is fixed and the milestone is 1.40
<dholbach> if you investigate some more, you will see that neither Ubuntu nor Debian has that new version
<dholbach> so we're going to package it ourselves
<dholbach> first: try to make sure you have a line like this one in your /etc/apt/sources.list
<dholbach> deb-src http://de.archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ intrepid main restricted universe multiverse
<dholbach> replace "intrepid" with whatever you're running
<dholbach> run this afterwards
<dholbach>   sudo apt-get update
<dholbach> now run
<dholbach>   apt-get source transmission
<dholbach> this will download the current source package for transmission
<dholbach> now change into the directory that it created
<dholbach> (transmission-<version number>)
<dholbach> <charlie-tca> QUESTION: am I the only one with transmission-trac 1153?
<dholbach> charlie-tca: which Launchpad bug were you on
<dholbach> ?
<charlie-tca> 291205
<dholbach> charlie-tca: try https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/transmission/+bug/292929
<ubot5`> Launchpad bug 292929 in transmission "transmission 1.34 inhibits hibernation by default" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<dholbach> alright
<dholbach> if you check the contents of the directory, you will see a directory called "debian" in the source code
<dholbach> I can't go into too much detail here, I'll give out a few links about packaging later on, for now I'll just say: this directory contains all the changes that are necessary to make a package out of the source code
<dholbach> basically "make it build the Debian/Ubuntu way"?
<dsto> cd .
<dholbach> what we'd normally do is the following:
<dholbach>  - go to the homepage of the software developers of transmission
<dholbach>  - download the new source code
<dholbach>  - apply all the changes to the new version that were necessary for the old version
<dholbach> luckily we have tools to make that easier for us :)
<dholbach> please open  ~/.bashrc  (or the equivalent if you use another shell) in your favourite editor
<dholbach> and add something like the following to it:
<dholbach> export DEBFULLNAME='Daniel Holbach'
<dholbach> export DEBEMAIL='daniel.holbach@ubuntu.com'
<dholbach> save the file and run
<dholbach>   source ~/.bashrc
<dholbach> (or restart your terminal)
<dholbach> that way the variables will be set in your session and the tools we're going to use now will pick them up
<dholbach> if you run
<dholbach>   cat debian/watch
<dholbach> you will see one of the files in the debian directory that will make the process of "download the new version, unpack it, apply the changes, etc." a lot easier
<dholbach> please run
<dholbach>   uscan --download
<dholbach> it will then check which new versions are available and get them for us
<dholbach> that worked out OK?
<dholbach> if you take a look at  debian/changelog  now, it will probably look somewhat like this: http://paste.ubuntu.com/68884/
<dholbach> the first thing we do is change "intrepid" to "jaunty" - we can't upload to intrepid anymore, because it's released already
<dholbach> the next thing, which is very important, but which we're going to skip because of time concerns is: explicitly list all the bugs that were fixed in Ubuntu with the new version in a format similar to this: http://paste.ubuntu.com/68885/
<dholbach> the (LP: #12345678) syntax will then automatically close all the bugs when the package gets uploaded
<dholbach> <weboide> QUESTION: if we want to package for jaunty, do we have to change the 'pbuilder create' then?
<dholbach> weboide: yes, if you want to be a good developer, you might even want to run the development release, so you can test things properly
<dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/UsingDevelopmentReleases has more information how you can do that in a sane and safe way
<dholbach> <itnet7> Question: When you close a bug with comments can you edit those comments to include further info if necessary?
<dholbach> itnet7: yes, good point: it's important to be very verbose in the changelog because the next developer who touches the package (we maintain everything as a big team) needs to know what you changed and why
<dholbach> OK, if you take a look at the debian/patches directory you will see a couple of patch files there
<dholbach> the people who worked on the package before needed to apply them apparently
<dholbach> 10_fix_crasher_from_upstream.dpatch is included in version 1.40b1 already, so we can delete it
<dholbach> make sure to remove it from debian/patches/00list as well
<dholbach> my changelog entry looks like this now: http://paste.ubuntu.com/68887/
<dholbach> did that work our alright for everybody?
<volo> hi
<dholbach> oh, I just found another thing... it seems that since the last time the package was built, some library packages changed their name
<Aeoris_> gekki
<Aeoris_> *hello
<dholbach> so please also change libcurl-dev to libcurl4-openssl-dev in debian/control
<dholbach> sorry, I just found it out now
<dholbach> then please run
<dholbach>   debuild -S -us -uc
<dholbach> this will generate a new source package
<dholbach> now please run
<Aeoris> hey dholbach, back on berlin? ;)
<dholbach>   cd ..; sudo pbuilder build transmission_1.40b1-0ubuntu1.dsc
<dholbach> this will start the build process for the new version
<dholbach> I'm a bit sorry we had to rush through the whole process a bit quickly now
<dholbach> please all bookmark this one:    https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/GettingStarted
<dholbach> because it links to all the necessary links (like the packaging guide, like the tutorial videos, etc)
<dholbach> and also to the SponsorshipProcess which explains how to get packages uploaded to Ubuntu
<dholbach> thanks a lot everybody - I hope you all had as much fun as I did! :)
<jcastro> thanks daniel!
* jcastro changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Current Session: Xubuntu | Prefix questions with "QUESTION:" | Stay on topic | Run 'date -u' in a terminal to find the UTC time
<jcastro> Now it's Xubuntu with cody-somerville!
<dholbach> make me proud! :-)
<cody-somerville> :)
<cody-somerville> Hello everyone!
<Intey> hihou
<volo> hi
<knome> hello cody :]
<cody-somerville> For those of you who don't know, Xubuntu is an official derivitive of the Ubuntu project and is developed and maintained by members of the Ubuntu and Xubuntu community. In the recent months, the Xubuntu community of contributors has grown significantly.
<cody-somerville> For example, knome is responsible for our nice new website :)
<knome> o/
<knome> Check it out: http://xubuntu.org/
<cody-somerville> Another accomplishment in the last six months has been the adoptions of a Xubuntu strategy document. We intend to use this document to help us communicate our long term goals for Xubuntu.
<cody-somerville> From the document: "The goal of Xubuntu is to produce an easy to use distribution, based on Ubuntu, using Xfce as the graphical desktop, with a focus on integration, usability and performance, with a particular focus on low memory footprint. The integration in Xubuntu is at a configuration level, a toolkit level, and matching the underlying technology beneath the desktop in Ubuntu. Xubuntu will be built and developed as pa
<cody-somerville> rt of the wider Ubuntu community, based around the ideals and values of Ubuntu."
<cody-somerville> The latest release of Xubuntu provides a more polished experience over Hardy along with a number of new features such as the improved Network Manager 0.7. We had intended to ship the new Xfce 4.6 with Intrepid but unfortunately it was unavailable. Luckily, however, we do intend to provide the recently released Xfce 4.4.3 to Hardy and Intrepid users.
<cody-somerville> For Jaunty, I'm happy to report that a number of new and exciting features will be included - such as samba browsing, metadata and search within Thunar, Xfce 4.6, and of course less bugs! :)
<cody-somerville> Another goal for Jaunty is to improve and expand our community of artists and doc writers. For this, I'll give the floor to knome for the rest of the session to discuss how and why you should get involved in Xubuntu. :)
<knome> Ok, I'm Pasi Lallinaho and I'm the newly appointed Xubuntu Marketing Lead.
<knome> If you have any questions throughout the session, please feel free to ask them @ #ubuntu-classroom-chat, we'll answer them with Cody.
<knome> So, Xubuntu like Ubuntu consists of separate teams.
<knome> One is obviously developers, but there's a lot more to it.
<knome> - Documentation team, which is responsible for the Docs
<knome> - Web team, which keeps the website updated
<knome> A few more words about the web team now
<knome> We've recently appointed Vincent (vinnl) as the new Web team leader
<knome> He's put a *lot* work on the content of the new website lately
<knome> - Artwork team
<knome> The artwork team provides the artwork for the project, including the website, themes, wallpapers, ads...
<knome> We're currently quite short on artist, feel free to join us!
<knome> - Marketing team
<knome> The marketing team is relatively new in Xubuntu.
<knome> This idea was brought up when i joined the project.
<knome> The marketing teams controls and leads the overall branding and promotion
<knome> This includes for example soon to be released Artwork guidelines
<knome> These guidelines explain further what kind of artwork we want
<knome> For example, we have some keywords which should describe the looks of the artwork contributed to Xubuntu
<knome> They're goal is also to keep the artwork and brand consistent
<knome> *Their
<knome> The marketing team (me) works closely with the artwork team (me and a few more) and the web team (vinnl and me)
<knome> Without this close cooperation we couldn't have so nice website now - and released on time!
<knome> The marketing team is responsible for any other advertising we might want: T-shirts, stickers, maybe some giveaway CDs, screencasts... The sky is the limit!
<knome> That was about the teams of Xubuntu
<knome> Now I'd like to emphasize on the easyness to join Xubuntu
<knome> We're a relatively small project, and I can assure you we're very welcoming and warm community
<knome> It was really easy for me to jump in - only after a few months since I joined, we released the new website which was mostly my work
<knome> So you can get quite big part on the project when joining.
<knome> That means freedom and rights, but also responsibility.
<knome> Still I encourage you to join, if you like Xubuntu. We always need more people to help. Even if you didn't know what you could do, just join #xubuntu-devel and tell who you are and that you want to join and we'll make up something.
<knome> < homy1> QUESTION: Shouldn't Ubuntu itself be able to run on lower hardware specs instead of making a special Xubuntu for that?
<knome> Kind of yes and no. Xubuntu has Xfce as window manager and not Gnome, like Ubuntu has.
<knome> So that's already a big difference. Xubuntu is not only for old/low spec hardware, but also for people who want the most out of their PCs.
<knome> It's an another alternative.
<knome>  < popey> QUESTION: I've seen a lot of comments recently about Xubuntu not being as lean and quick as people expect it might be. What is the Xubuntu team doing to rectify this (on top of anything which applies across all of the derivatives like kernel/upstart changes)?
<cody-somerville> :)
<knome> cody-somerville, want to answer?
<cody-somerville> Sure.
<cody-somerville> Xubuntu is not meant to run on legacy hardware. Its intended to run on lower powered machines. People expecting Xubuntu to run on 32mb of ram with a Pentium I simply misunderstand the objective of Xubuntu. However, performance is a concern of ours.
<knome> QUESTION: "maybe some giveaway CDs" - does that mean Xubuntu CDs from ShipIt?
<cody-somerville> As our team and pool of expertise grows, we'll continue to invest efforts into that objective while attempting to maintain a delicate balance. We want Xubuntu not only to be zippy but also usable and productive.
<cody-somerville> Ah, yes. shipit.
<cody-somerville> Unfortunately, there are no plans to ship Xubuntu via shipit at this time.
<popey> cody-somerville: if that's the case then perhaps https://help.ubuntu.com/community/LowEndSystemSupport needs changing - "Some systems with lower memory configurations will be more responsive without the extra eye candy provided by the Gnome interface. To install XFCE, a lightweight alternative to Gnome"
<knome> About the CD thingy:
<cody-somerville> popey, I think thats an accurate statement. :)
<knome> Offering CDs from ShipIt would have some serious costs.
<knome> We don't have the money for that.
<cody-somerville> [11:29] <toros> QUESTION: How much help does Xubuntu get from Canonical?
<cody-somerville> toros, We receive significant support and assistance from Canonical.
<cody-somerville> :)
<knome> True.
<knome> Any other questions?
<Intey> Will you ship persistent USB sticks and the likes with xubuntu on em in the future? I'd need one @ work, alot of old PCs at that place....
<knome> < gta47b> QUESTION: XUBUNTU = Ubuntu -GNOME -other heavy apps + light apps ...is that accurate ?
<Intey> Ubuntu do so with flash drives, which basically are "too flashy"
<cody-somerville> Intey, A lot of old PCs can't boot from USB. However, you can use the new ubuntu tool to create a bootable usb.
<Intey> Well it's broken for me and I fiolled a bug after folliwing the session yesterday ))
<cody-somerville> :)
<knome> gta47b, You're right.
<knome> lordnoid said on -chat that Firefox isn't lightweight.
<knome> That's also true, but we don't want to ship unready apps with Xubuntu either.
<knome> Sometimes we just have to make a choice between a not-so-lightweight and a yet-to-be-finished product.
<knome> < rzr> QUESTION: is today xubuntu more suitable than ubuntu than old distro for old computozors ?
<knome> rzr, can you clarify?
<knome> < toros> QUESTION: What's the main target group of Xubuntu? People with low spec hardware? Geeks, how want better performance? Netbook users? Or all of them?
<knome> It's a common misunderstanding that Xubuntu is only for old hardware.
<knome> "All of them" would be the best answer, though for example Netbook users there is the Netbook Remix.
<knome> As i said earlier, Xubuntu is an alternative for Ubuntu, just like Kubuntu is.
<knome> It might be faster, but everybody has to judge it theirselves.
<knome> < gta47b> QUESTION: Can the recent xubuntu run as well as win95 on the h/w that win95 runs well on ?
<knome> cody-somerville, can you?
<cody-somerville> I doubt it.
<knome> More questions?
<knome> < gta47b> QUESTION: Can you say use ubuntu on recent < 1 year old h/w, use Xubuntu on > x year old h/w, what would you say is "x" here ?
<cody-somerville> It would be tough for me to give an accurate number. However, I'd recommend 256mb of ram and atleast 500mhz for a decent experience.
<cody-somerville> However, Xubuntu can most certainly run on lower specs and does very well on higher specs.
<knome> < rzr> QUESTION: about computozors :) I meant I remember using debian potatoe w/ KDE on a 133 MHz  64MB , this will be probally impossible with today distros how comes ?
<knome> I think this is much the same as Cody said about the win95 machine.
<cody-somerville> Changes to core components have seen system requirements rise over the last decade.
<knome> Ok, any other questions about the Xubuntu community/teams?
<cody-somerville> Xubuntu will run on 133Mhz 64MB if you use the alternative cd but it'll be painful :)
<cody-somerville> I imagine debian potatoe with KDE on a 133mhz 64MB of ram was painful too - but not as pretty :)
<b33r> lol people still use that kind of hardware?
<rzr> cody-somerville: it was less painfull in my memories than using windows today :)
<Intey> by offering a more lightweight distro, ain't there a danger of pushing the plain Ubuntu to a more demanding future?
<knome> There is always people who prefer Gnome over Xfce.
<cody-somerville> :)
<cody-somerville> Unfortunately that is all the time I have for today.
<knome> Yet again: it's your choice.
<cody-somerville> I'd encourage everyone to join us in #xubuntu-devel and to get involved!
<knome> Me too. See you there!
<Intey> OK that sounded weird and almost harsh what I mean is on top of Xfce versus Gnome, they tend to add more and more Eye candy than fixing bugs in recent ubuntu versions
<cody-somerville> Xubuntu is easy to get involved with and there is lots of room to air your creativity :)
<Odd-rationale> thx, cody-somerville!
<Odd-rationale> and knome
<knome> My pleasure.
<charlie-tca> great job, cody-somerville and knome
<knome> Great job all Xubuntu developers and contributors! :)
<knome> See you at #xubuntu-devel
<jcastro> thanks guys!
<knome> o/
 * RainCT is waiting for jcastro to change the topic :)
 * sebner winks RainCT :P
* jcastro changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Current Session:REVU Q+A | Welcome to Openweek, questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat please || Session details here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
<RainCT> so, who's all here for the REVU session?
<knome> hiya RainCT
<RainCT> well, I'll suppose most people are shy but will talk later ;)
<RainCT> So, hi all. My name's Siegfried Gevatter. I'm a MOTU and the current REVU Coordinator (and Developer).
<gta47b> RainCT: Yes!
<RainCT> For those of you who are just hanging around and don't know what REVU (pronounced like "review") is, it is the web application that we use at Ubuntu to review new packages from other people for inclusion into Ubuntu.
<RainCT> So, people can just upload their packages there and eventually Ubuntu Developers will look at them and suggest improvements. The uploader should then submit new revisions doing the requested changes, and once a Developer things that the package candidate is good enough to enter universe/multiverse, he/she will "advocate it".
<RainCT> *thinks
<RainCT> Once a package has two advocates (and no negative comments for the last revision) the package will enter Ubuntu.
<RainCT> Ah, REVU can be found at: http://revu.ubuntuwire.com
<RainCT> If you look at REVU's start page, you'll see that there are currently a lot of packages pending review. This is because there are way more people submitting new packages than developers reviewing them, but also because the last cycle wasn't very good for REVU and packages have accumulated there.
<RainCT> We hope that this will improve this cycle, though (and are actively thinking of new strategies to make REVU work more efficient). So, if you have some package there waiting for review please be patient :).
<RainCT> By the way, today is "REVU Day" (a day on which many developers will give special importance to package reviewing), so if you have a package on REVU don't hesitate to join #ubuntu-motu and ask for someone to review it (and wait for a while there; it may take time for people to answer).
<RainCT> If you are wondering when the next REVU Day will be, there's going to be one every Friday in the coming months. Note that there's also a big announcement on the top-left corner of all REVU pages announcing when the next one will be (or if there's currently one running, like now).
<RainCT> Anyway, let's start with the Q&A. I hope for this to be an open and participative session, so let me hear your questions, and feel free to speak here instead of in -chat :).
<woody86> How could we (as normal non-motu) help out reviewing the packages in REVU?
<homy1> So if I would like a program to be included in official ubuntu universe, I'll start out with uploading it to REVU?
<RainCT> homy1: If you feel comfortable enough writting a package from scratch, yes. But first ensure that there's no one already working on it, neither on Ubuntu nor on Debian.
<RainCT> You can find packages which are being worked on at Debian here: http://www.debian.org/devel/wnpp/
<homy1> well, I'm sure it isn't worked on in debian....
<RainCT> (For normal users who want to request a package but don't want to package it, you can file a needs-packaging bug as described on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/NewPackages)
<RainCT> and for those who want to create on, there's information on it on the same page :)
<homy1> Will every package be accepted for universe automatically if it is
<homy1> * in a correct package format (ie. lintian checks etc ok)
<homy1> * and qualifies for the licenses of universe?
<RainCT> homy1: (on your previous comment) Then it would be great if you work on it, but note that it can be a bit difficult to get it right if you haven't done any packaging before, so don't get easily frustrated :)
<RainCT> It's usually recommended that new contributors start by fixing bugs, working on syncs/merges, etc., but if you would like to start creating a package from scratch rather than that's perfectly fine, too
<RainCT> And no, no packages will be accepted "automatically".
<RainCT> As I said, they will be reviewed by MOTUs or Core Developers, and at least two of them have to be happy with the package quality
<RainCT> so it will be accepted if a) the licensing is correct, and b) you do everything necessary to get the package into good shape
<RainCT> (note that packages can be rejected if they are not considered worthwile for inclusion into Ubuntu, but this doesn't happen usually)
<RainCT> (in fact, I think I've never seen this :))
<RainCT> Ah, if you decide to create a package then it's also important that you are happy to maintain it afterwards. There are currently many packages in Ubuntu with no one interested to look after them, so please do not "package and leave" :)
<RainCT> did this solve your question?
<homy1> what happens with those orphaned packages? Are they eventually deleted?
<RainCT> Usually not, unless there's a reason for this (very buggy, obsolete and no longer useful, etc.).
<homy1> QUESTION: <marrow>  Where can the "orphaned" packages checked out?
<RainCT> I think there's currently some discussion on creating a team to look after them
<RainCT> and get them into better shape (fix pending bugs, etc)
<RainCT> There's a pretty useful tool called "Ubuntu External Health Status" which does list some information on packages that are either not in Debian or in Debian but maintained by the "Debian QA Team" (ie, they haven't a real maintainer)
<RainCT> http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/uehs/
<homy1> QUESTION: <marrow>  Is there some website where the orphaned packages are listed?
<RainCT> This page is actually a pretty good start point if you want to get involved with packaging tasks
<RainCT> I've just answered that :). The UEHS page does list many such pages which have some problem, but I don't know of any list listing them absolutely all
<RainCT> Harvest (http://daniel.holba.ch/harvest/) is by the way also a quite useful page to find easy tasks, but it focuses on all sorts of packages. If you want more information about this check the logs of Daniel's session on "Fixing a bug in Ubuntu - it's easier than you think"
<RainCT> I'll answer woody86's question now, why I skipped before :P
<RainCT> < woody86> How could we (as normal non-motu) help out reviewing the packages in REVU?
<RainCT> This is actually a very good question (and a bit difficult to answer :))
<weboide> QUESTION: Can we upload packages built against jaunty on REVU yet? And is it possible to upload a package for both intrepid (for backports for example) and jaunty?
<RainCT> (weboide: I'll answer that after the current question)
<weboide> np :)
<RainCT> If you have absolutely no packaging experience then there isn't really much you can do to help on REVU
<RainCT> Perhaps trying to install packages from there and verifying if they work correctly
<RainCT> which will be easier once I add the possibility to link REVU packages to PPAs (there's an "Import from PPA" option in the pipeline, btw)
<RainCT> but if you really want to help I'd suggest you to learn about packaging, which will allow you to do much more useful stuff
<RainCT> once you are confident with packaging, feel free to review packages and leave comments if you think you've found an issue
<woody86> RainCT- sounds good, thanks :)
<woody86> I'm being mentored right now, so hopefully I can help you guys out a little more really soon
<RainCT> I'm thinking about adding an option for UUC (Ubuntu Contributing Developers - people who have acquired Ubuntu membership through work on packages) to give "recommendations" on packages
<RainCT> (well, perhaps this isn't the best word)
<RainCT> I don't mean comments with this (which is already possible, and encouraged :)), but the possibility to reject/advocate a package, but instead of couting the rejection or moving the package to the "needs work" section this will just show a special sign to let MOTUs/Core Devs know that someone has looked at it
<RainCT> so if an UUC finds many obvious errors in a package he can recommend for it to be moved to "needs work" and a Developer can then do this
<RainCT> Oh, something I've forget before. If you have no packaging skills you can help verifying if a package is also being worked on in Debian, but this will be done by automatic tools somewhen soon
<RainCT> woody86: is this what you wanted to know? :)
<RainCT> any doubt related to this particular question?
<RainCT> I'll assume no then, feel free to ask later if you have a question. Now to weboide's question
<RainCT> < weboide> QUESTION: Can we upload packages built against jaunty on REVU yet? And is it possible to upload a package for both  intrepid (for backports for example) and jaunty?
<RainCT> Yes, you *should* upload packages for Jaunty, but only for Jaunty.
<RainCT> If you want to get it backported later then it's helpeful to ensure that it works (eg, the dependencies aren't too high unnecessarily, etc.)
<RainCT> but there can't be two different versions of a package at the same time on REVU, and only packages against the current development release are accepted
<RainCT> so, first get it into Jaunty, and then you can request a backport of it the usual way
<RainCT> as explained on https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuBackports
<weboide> Thank you RainCT i'll focus on jaunty then ;)
 * RainCT waits for more questions :)
<sebner> Question: What is planned for the future (features , changes for Developers and Users) besides those you already mentioned :)
<woody86> RainCT- no, that cleared everything up! Thanks :)
<RainCT> Suggestions on how to improve REVU and the current processes are also welcome, btw. If you later have any question/comment, feel free to contact me on IRC or by mail. For problems with REVU, #ubuntu-motu is usually a better place to ask, though
<RainCT> now that's a question I've been waiting for :)
<RainCT> there are many things in the pipeline and many more ideas about which I'm still thinking
<RainCT> some which you may expect to be available within the coming weeks/months are:
<RainCT> Seeing the IRC (Freenode) username of REVU users next to their nick, linking (manually or automatically ) REVU packages to Launchpad, Debian, PPAs and Brainstorm (if we decide that package requests should be accepted there)
<RainCT> the PPA import being finished, a possibility for reviewers to post neutral comments (to ask questions, leave comments, etc. without moving the package to the "needs work" queue)
<RainCT> a "My uploads" section showing all your packages at the top of the index page, to have a better overview over them
<RainCT> and more :)
<sebner> :)
<RainCT> ah, another interesting one: statistics and graphics on how many packages are pending review, how many are accepted, etc.
<weboide> QUESTION: When uploading to REVU, the package version should be normal format (2.4.3-0ubuntu1 for example)?
<RainCT> Further, I'm heavily thinking about how to improve the current processes and also about work with Debian (if you are interested in this, I may send a message with my toughts to the utnubu mailing list within the coming days/weeks).
<RainCT> weboide: that's right! :)
<RainCT> the Debian revision for new packages on REVU should always be "-0ubuntu1"
<sebner> RainCT: send it ;D
<weboide> thanks, just makin sure :)
<RainCT> and the upstream version (what comes before the last "-") should be the upstream version, but in some cases you'll have to change it
<sebner> Questions. So you will also try to collaborate with Debian mentors?
<RainCT> you may find weird upstreams who use versions like "2.0beta1"
<RainCT> using this as the version of the package would break updates, so you'll have to use 2.0~beta1 instead
<RainCT> the "~" means "before" (and there's also "+" which means "after)
<RainCT> so the complete version in this example would be "2.0~beta1-0ubuntu1"
<weboide> that would mean "before the version 2.0-0ubuntu1"
<RainCT> weboide: indeed
<RainCT> Note that you don't need to bump the Ubuntu revision in order to upload new candidates (though this may be required if you go the PPA way once there's the PPA Import feature; I'll figure something out to automatically fix the version string for those)
<RainCT> I'll also mention that it's a common mistake for new contributors to upload packages with changelog entries coming from their PPA - this will always be rejected
<weboide> You mean with a ppa version?
<RainCT> debian/changelog must only have one entry, and the Debian revision must be 0ubuntu1
<RainCT> also, using a version like "1.0-0ubuntu5" because Â«I've uploaded this package previously to my PPA using broken versioning and have "1.0-0ubuntu4" there. I want -0ubuntu5 now to ensure proper upgradsÂ» is usually not accepted
<RainCT> weboide: yes, version and changelog entries
 * sebner slightly feels ignored :P
<RainCT> sebner: Yes. Collaboration with Debian, in any way, is a very interesting topic and it would be great to get something working there
<RainCT> but there are no specific plans yet
<sebner> RainCT: but keeping in mind that a package in ubuntu won't always get automatically accepted in Debian :\
<RainCT> Sure. We still have a few minutes until Mike can rock with Launchpad i18n, so, is there any other question?
<sebner> How many people are working on Revu currently?
<RainCT> I missed this one:     < marrow> QUESTION: If only those packages are accepted, which are aimed for the  current developement release, than what happens  with those which are still in REVU, but originally they were submitted for an older release?
<RainCT> This is a good question. If a package has "intrepid" in the changelog but is otherwise good it may still be advocated and this will be changed by the uploader before uploading it
<RainCT> Those packages may be moved to the "needs-work" section at some point, though, to ensure that their submitters are still around and interested in getting them into Ubuntu - so that we don't review them for nothing
<RainCT> (but it's unsure if and when this will happen)
<RainCT> < sebner> How many people are working on Revu currently?
<RainCT> sebner: in which regards? Developers, reviewers..?
<sebner> RainCT: everthing you can tell me :P
<RainCT> At the moment, actively working on the code there's basically only me. Michael Casadevall (Ncommander) did some important contributions a couple months ago, though (and apachelogger provided some great icons :))
<garferi> omg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eSLaQQiok0&feature=related
<RainCT> if you want to know the total amount of people with upload rights to the branch, check https://launchpad.net/~revu-hackers
<garferi> sry, wrong place
<RainCT> Finally, there's a list of the most active reviewers on http://revu.ubuntuwire.com/stats.py
<sebner> RainCT: kay, thx. and the hour is over :P
<RainCT> It's time, so the session ends here. Feel free to catch me later if you still have anything you'd like to ask/tell me.
<nand> Ok, nice session RainCT, thanks!
<RainCT> Thanks all for your interest! :)
<nand> Next is a presentation about translation and internationalization in Launchpad by mrooney!
<mrooney> Hello!
* nand changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Current Session: Translations and Internationalization with Launchpad | Welcome to Openweek, questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat please || Session details here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
<mrooney> I am Michael Rooney, and I'll be talking about setting up a project for translations, getting translations, and then integrating them into your project, with the help of Launchpad.
<mrooney> I won't be talking explicitly about the overall Ubuntu translation effort, instead more on a per-project level.
<mrooney> Including what developers can do, how users can help, and how multi-lingual speakers can help. Really anyone can contribute to the process.
<mrooney> But I will try to address any questions to the best of my ability, don't forget to ask in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, prefacing them with QUESTION and/or mrooney :)
<mrooney> I have also recently overviewed this process on my blog at http://mrooney.blogspot.com/ , so if you want to ask questions later feel free to head over there and leave a comment.
<mrooney> Okay so first, let's give a brief overview, what is internationalization (i18n) and localization (i10n)?
<mrooney> Who here already has an idea?
<mrooney> Okay well good, I shall explain!
<mrooney> Firstly, they are often abbreviated as above because of the number of letters between the first and last letters.
<mrooney> i18n is the process of making locale-specific elements of your application translatable.
<mrooney> i10n is then integrating translations into the project so that users of those languages see their language by default instead of English.
<mrooney> The scope of this is generally more than just language, and includes the way currencies are displayed, among other things. Everything to do with another culture.
<mrooney> For a more thorough explanation, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internationalization_and_localization
<mrooney> I am now going to cover why and how to do this, but first let me ask if there are any questions before going on, such as about the goals of this process?
<mrooney> Basically, we want people speaking other languages to be able to use applications!
<mrooney> If you don't localize, people not speaking English can't use your application!
<mrooney> And that's no fun.
<mrooney> Plus to be included into Ubuntu, at least the main repository, a project will need to have translations.
<mrooney> So now the first step is i18n, making a project translatable!
<mrooney> I am going to start out with a really simple python example, so anyone can follow allow if they want.
<mrooney> *along
<mrooney> This is where developers of projects can help, but it is also simple enough that a casual user of the application could contribute to this process as well.
<mrooney> Basically, we need to wrap all user-visible text under a translation lookup layer.
<mrooney> Initially this will be slightly technical but I think we can handle it :)
<mrooney> We will use gettext (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gettext) for this.
<mrooney> Let's use a simple python program. We will create a file called "example.py"
<mrooney> Now we will put one line in it: print "Hello, world!"
<mrooney> When run, this will print "Hello, world!" to the console!
<mrooney> But there is a problem, does anyone see it?
<mrooney> Okay the problem is, anyone not speaking english won't understand this program!
<mrooney> (while the examples I use are Python, any modern language should have very similar equivalents)
<mrooney> First let's make python aware of what language the user is using!
<mrooney> Let's add one line to the top
<mrooney> import locale; locale.setlocale(locale.LC_ALL, "")
<mrooney> What we do here is import the locale module and tell it, for all aspects of a locale: language, currency, dates, etc. (LC_ALL), use the users default language ("")
<mrooney> Any questions there?
<mrooney> Now we need to add the translation layer for text:
<mrooney> import gettext; gettext.install("yourAppName", "locales")
<mrooney> This tells gettext to install itself and use "yourAppName" as the scope
<mrooney> the name you use here won't matter unless you get into more complex translations
<mrooney> the "locales" is telling gettext where to attempt to find translations
<mrooney> ie a folder named "locales" wherever test.py is located.
<mrooney> QUESTION: ilia: mrooney: don't you mean "l10n" (i.e. L10N ) when you write "i10n"?
<mrooney> Yes, I do, sorry :)
<mrooney> forgot to connect the dot :)
<mrooney> QUESTION: Is the Â«import locale; locale.setlocale(locale.LC_ALL, "")Â» chunk really necessary? I've a Python project using gettext but I don't do that there; could this cause any problem?
<mrooney> It is definitely useful for other aspects of l10n including currency and dates, though gettext may be able to pick up on the default language by itself
<mrooney> If you are only localizing your application with translations and you have found that it works without that, it is probably fine!
<mrooney> Okay, now, what gettext.install has done is create a function, named _ (the underscore key), so that it is quick and easy to type and spot.
<mrooney> So now we can change: print "Hello, world!" to print _("Hello, world!")
<mrooney> What this does is give "Hello, world!" to gettext and ask, do you have a translation for this text, for the users language?
<mrooney> Now in the case of English, it will just give back the same text.
<mrooney> So if you are following along you can run it now, and it will still print "Hello, world!"
<mrooney> So that is the first step, wrapping all user-visible strings in _(), which an intermediate user could probably take a stab at, by downloading a projects source and searching for text they find in the application, assuming it isn't already internationalized, of course.
<mrooney> Okay, now we are through the technical part, does that process make sense? Any questions?
<mrooney> QUESTION: C++ equivalent?
<mrooney> The wrapping of the strings is going to be the same in almost any language
<mrooney> The only different part is going to be the initializing line, I don't know it off hand for other languages but it should be easy enough to find online
<mrooney> Sorry I can't be more specific, there
<mrooney> Okay, now we need to make a translation template that translators can use!
<mrooney> This is fairly easy and involves running xgettext on the files you updated.
<mrooney> There are language specific programs, python has one, but I am using xgettext as it should work with Python, Java, C++, and others
<mrooney> so in this case, you'll want to run "xgettext example.py > messages.pot"
<mrooney> If you have a bunch of files you can string them, such as "xgettext file1.py file2.cpp > messages.pot"
<mrooney> This will create a template called messages.pot, which contains all the strings necessary for translation.
<mrooney> Now from this, an experienced translator could make a translation for you.
<mrooney> But to make it as easy as possible, we want to use Launchpad's Rosetta service, which provides a simple web UI to do this!
<mrooney> If the project isn't already in Launchpad, go to launchpad.net to register, which is completely free.
<mrooney> From here on out I'll be using my project, wxBanker, as an example
<Intey> link plz
<mrooney> Edit your projects details (in my case: https://launchpad.net/wxbanker/+edit) and check the box that says "Translations for this project are done in Launchpad", scroll to the bottom, and click "Change".
<mrooney> You probably won't be able to edit my project :)
<mrooney> but the general page is https://launchpad.net/wxbanker
<mrooney> Now click the Translations tab of your project in Launchpad and upload the .pot file you just generated with xgettext.
<mrooney> If this is your first time doing so, it will need to be reviewed by a human, and will take perhaps a day to get approved, at which point you will receive an email letting you know it has been and you are good to go.
<mrooney> Once it has been approved, your project can now be translated!
<mrooney> So go to say https://translations.launchpad.net/wxbanker, and if your language settings are configured for more than English, you can start translating!
<mrooney> (there is "Select languages" option in the lower right)
<mrooney> QUESTION: Could you explain why new translation templates have to be manually reviewed before being accepted, please?
<mrooney> So you have upload messages.pot, which is basically a text file containing all the strings
<mrooney> However before it goes into Launchpad, someone needs to make sure you actually generated it correctly, that it looks sane, et cetera
<mrooney> So that someone doesn't say try to make their own by hand or otherwise do something silly
<mrooney> Perhaps someone wasn't wrapping their strings correctly, or another issue. Maybe the original strings aren't in English!
<mrooney> So in this way a human needs to verify it is sound.
<mrooney> Make sense?
<Intey> does.
<RainCT> Yep, thanks :)
<mrooney> So now, how can you get it translated?
<mrooney> Well, if you know another language you can tell launchpad via the language settings button
<mrooney> Then you translate into that language yourself.
<mrooney> However, this probably isn't the case for a lot of people, and one language won't be enough.
<mrooney> A very interesting feature of Launchpad however is that it will show translations from other projects, so you can do common ones yourself without knowing the language.
<mrooney> For example if "Hello" is in your template, it will tell you that other projects use "Hola" for Spanish and allow you to select that.
<mrooney> So in this way you can make all the basic File, Help, Save, and such translated
<mrooney> There are a lot of projects in Launchpad, you might be surprised to find that translations already exist for a lot of strings!
<mrooney> QUESTION: will there be a special howto available for those of us who dont write code at all, consider themselves power users though and are literate enuff...in short: ppl that just want to translate, efficient, sound, clean. supportive....blah..?
<mrooney> Intey: do you mean people that know another language and want to translate from English into that?
<Intey> exactly^
<mrooney> In that case what you will want to do is probably is join ubuntu-translators (https://translations.launchpad.net/+groups/ubuntu-translators)
<mrooney> However you will probably need to demonstrate you have translation experience as those users can translate all of Ubuntu (and we need definite help there!)
<mrooney> So you may want to find projects (like wxBanker) which is open and allows anyone to translate
<mrooney> So I would start off volunteering to translate new projects
<mrooney> There are going to be a lot of new UIs made for Jaunty, for example, I imagine, so if you want to start asking around how you can help translate those
<mrooney> QUESTION: What do we have to do in case of changes made to the source code? Should we just freeze the project and wait for the translatians to be done and then release the project?
<mrooney> Well, the advantage of gettext is that it won't cause any regressions
<mrooney> So you can wrap all your strings and generate a template , and it will still function the same
<mrooney> So you don't have to freeze the project development, you can release it internationalized with no translations for example
<mrooney> Does that make sense?
<weboide> yes, and what happens when you upload new/updated *.pot files to LP?
<mrooney> weboide: so when you upload a new template, any strings already translated are naturally not lost
<mrooney> so if you forgot to wrap say the "Help" menu (a real example that happened to me :)
<mrooney> you can wrap that in the code, generate a new template, upload it, and now there is one new string
<mrooney> When people translate that string (or you use suggestions), just download the translations again and replace the old ones
<mrooney> and now you have that translation for the new string
<weboide> Thanks :)
<mrooney> QUESTION: How are translations done for static content like SVG images, themes and books? Can those be helped via Launchpad as well?
<mrooney> It depends :)
<mrooney> As long as you can generate a list of text that needs to be translated, yes
<mrooney> Picklesworth: It should also be noted, on the topic of translations, that GTK offers a lot of Stock content for things like menu items and buttons, which magically translate themselves too
<mrooney> Yes, that is a good point
<mrooney> And addresses what RainCT asked earlier I believe, with setting up the locale module
<mrooney> When you do that, stock names including File, Edit, About items will often be automatically translated if the framework suppots it
<mrooney> QUESTION: how do you handle constraints (like: there's only so much room for a line of text)
<mrooney> This gets more into UI design, but it is a great point
<mrooney> If you are using a UI framework properly, you ideally won't have such constraints
<mrooney> It is important to almost never use absolute positioning, for example
<mrooney> this will cause painful issues
<mrooney> You want to design it from the ground up ideally, to make minimal assumptions about length, such as using controls that support word-wrapping
<mrooney> GTK and wxWidgets for example have the concept of sizers
<mrooney> And you will want to use layout elements like that
<mrooney> samgee: does that answer your question at all?
<samgee> I guess so
<Intey> wait, as a end-translator, does launchpad offer ways to see the maximum character lenght or somesuch? if not..blueprint?
<mrooney> Basically you want to attempt to eliminate constraints by word-wrapping and laying out without making assumptions
<mrooney> Intey: You can add comments to each string, which I didn't mention
<mrooney> Intey: but for example you might put // TRANSLATORS: this string can only be 100 chars
<mrooney> before the string
<mrooney> and if you pass something like --coments=// to xgettext, it will add that to the template and show up on Rosetta
<mrooney> I don't remember the exact xgettext argument, it probably isn't exactly that
<mrooney> But in that way you can inform translators of specific knowledge
<mrooney> and context
<mrooney> So that can help address samgee's issue perhaps as well. When you have to have a constraint, you can at least make translators aware
<mrooney> Let's see before I explain getting the translations into your project, which is easy, there was one more ?
<mrooney> Intey: I sometimes find myself accidentoly adding translations that have already been suggested, whilst proof-reading them...
<mrooney> Intey: as a result fellow translaters think Im stealing their work ...sort of
<mrooney> Rosetta will inform you of whether you can freely use a suggested translation or not
<mrooney> It will put a yellow warning sign next to a suggestion, if Launchpad isn't sure that you can freely use it
<mrooney> and in that case you would need to ask or review the license
<mrooney> And conversely when you make translations in an open-source project, you are typically allowing OTHER translators to use what you used
<mrooney> in another project
<mrooney> Okay lets go to the final step!
<mrooney> Once you have some translations in Launchpad, you are basically done and it is super easy to integrate them into the project!
<mrooney> Visit the translations page for your project in Launchpad, and click the "Download translations" link on the right.
<mrooney> From here ensure "Everything" is selected, and change the Format to "MO format" (what gettext will use). Now click "Request download".
<mrooney> This isn't always instant, although you will be emailed with a link to the file if it isn't.
<mrooney> Now, remember that "locales" folder we told gettext about earlier?
<mrooney> Once you downloaded your file "launchpad-export.tar.gz", extract that into where your source is, and rename it to "locales".
<mrooney> Bam! Now gettext will find your translations and use them instead of English when available
<mrooney> Bam! Now gettext will find your translations and use them instead of English.
<mrooney> whoops, well twice for emphasis
<mrooney> Now anyone using a language that you have a translation for, will now see the translations instead of English!
<mrooney> So that is the process from start to finish
<mrooney> Any other questions?
<mfoniso> yeah...
<mrooney> RainCT: Did I address your locale.setlocale question, on the advantages of how frameworks such as GTK and wxPython will pick up on that and translate stock strings automatically?
<mrooney> QUESTION: what are the limitations of gettext? Are there any alternatives that provide advantages (I remember a Mozilla talk at FOSDEM about something better in the works)
<mrooney> One limitation is that strings are translated in an all or nothing approach
<mrooney> either you have a translation that exactly matches or it doesn't get translated
<RainCT> mrooney: Yes, thanks :). (It isn't an issue for my project as it uses pygame, but that's good to know).
<mrooney> so if you have a translation for "Hello" and "world", you still need one for "Hello world"
<mrooney> if you use all of those
<mrooney> mfoniso: a question?
<mrooney> QUESTION: is automatic translation an option (babelfish etc.) an option if there are not enough volunteers?
<mrooney> not that I know of, and that would generally produce poor translations
<mrooney> however, using the suggestions from Rosetta is almost as good and will get you better results
<mfoniso> mrooney: I've asked in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<mrooney> however it is a one-at-a time operation
<mrooney> QUESTION:how does one go about doing translations into other langauges, for ubuntu
<mrooney> Okay let's see if I can address this as my last question
<mrooney> If you look at https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu, you will see we need a LOT of translations!
<mrooney> So help in this area is hugely appreciated and needed
<mrooney> and rewarding because you can see your own translations :)
<mrooney> to be able to translate here, you need to be a member of ubuntu-translators
<mrooney> So you'll want to look into joining https://translations.launchpad.net/+groups/ubuntu-translators
<mrooney> which will allow you translate almost all of Ubuntu that supports it
<mrooney> So find the sub team that you want to translate in
<mfoniso> nice
<mrooney> And you can ask to join their group
<mrooney> Okay, I hope that wraps it up!
<jcastro> Yay, thanks Mike!
<mfoniso> what do you mean by sub team?
* jcastro changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Current Session:Writing Python programs using the Launchpad API | Welcome to Openweek, questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat please || Session details here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
<mfoniso> sorry, I don't mean to drag it out
<mrooney> If you have any questions relating to this, feel free to get in touch me , details are on launchpad.net/~michael
<samgee> thanks mrooney
<Intey> Awesome class there, thanks
<mfoniso> ok, thanks mrooney
<jcastro> ok great
<jcastro> next session is how to write Python apps using the Launchpad API
<jcastro> barry: take it away!
<barry> jcastro: thanks! hello everybody
<barry> i'm going to to try to provide some instruction on using launchpadlib to write python programs that access launchpad through its webservice
<barry> i've never done an ubuntu open week session before so please be gentle :)
<barry> first some background:
<barry> as you know, there are lots of things you can do through launchpad's web interface.  you can submit and manage bugs, register branches, answer questions ,etc.
<barry> you also have a lot of data in launchpad that you can access through the web ui
<barry> our intent is that anything you can do through the web ui, you shoudl be able to do in a script
<barry> we've published a REST interface to launchpad, making it a "web service"
<barry> and we provide supported python bindings to that REST interface, to make it really easy for you to script launchpad via python
<barry> it's feasible for third parties to write bindings for the REST interface in other languages, though we won't support it officially
<barry> you can get the python bindings from here:
<barry> https://launchpad.net/launchpadlib
<barry> and...
<barry> https://code.launchpad.net/launchpadlib
<barry> and all the documentation is here:
<barry> https://help.launchpad.net/API/launchpadlib
<barry> any questions so far?
<barry> stdin: reminds me that launchpadlib is packaged in intrepid, so it's easier to get
<barry> stdin: thanks
<barry> python-launchpadlib
<barry> we haven't yet put the code in the cheeseshop, but that will happen at some point
<barry> the api docs mentioned above provide a nice starter for scripting launchpad, but there are a couple of things to be aware of
<barry> first, there's an open bug describing a problem scripting the staging server, so it is recommended that you test against edge for now.  be careful though because edge has real data, so try to use read-only changes to start with
<barry> also, you will need a web browser available because launchpadlib must authenticate you through your browser
<barry> your browser is the only client you trust :)
<barry> also, you need to be a launchpad beta tester currently to have access to the launchpad web service
<barry> when you go through the tutorial on the docs page, you will be asked to grant your application various levels of authorization
<barry> does anybody have any questions?
<barry> i should also mention that full launchpad functionality is not yet exposed in the web service.  you can do a lot of stuff right now and over time we'll be fleshing out the missing pieces
<barry> our intent is that you should be able to access any data you have permission to in the web ui
<barry> and perform any tasks you have permission to also
<barry> i highly recommend reading the tutorial mentioned above, it will give you a great start into scripting launchpad via python
<barry> alright, so let's go through a simple example
<barry> i'm assuming you already have launchpadlib installed.  if not, and you're having problems with that, let me know
<barry> note that you'll also need wadllib installed.  i would think the intrepid package dtrt, but if you're installing from source, launchpadlib's setup.py doesn't yet depend on wadllib
<barry> you need to start by authenticating to launchpad, through your browser
<barry> make sure your browser is open and that you're logged into launchpad
<barry> then fire up your python interpreter
<barry> start by importing some useful objects:
<barry> >>> from launchpadlib.launchpad import Launchpad, EDGE_SERVICE_ROOT
<barry> generally, you will want to set up caching, as this makes interacting with launchpad much faster.  to do this you need to set up a cache directory
<barry> in the following i'm going to use /tmp/cache but you can use anything you have write permission to
<barry> the next step is to authenticate to launchpad (again, note that i'm using edge here)
<barry> launchpad = Launchpad.get_token_and_login('just testing', EDGE_SERVICE_ROOT, '/tmp/cache')
<barry> this creates an aplication for you called "just testing"
<barry> it sets your client to talk to edge and to cache data in /tmp/cache
<barry> you'll now see a message at stdout and your python will be waiting for you to complete the task
<barry> you should also notice your web browser has opened an authentication page
<barry> it's at this point that you are going to grant the appropriate access to  your launchpadlib application
<barry> i   recommend for now to select read-only data
<barry> any questions or problems so far?
<barry> great
<barry> once you've given access to your application, go back to your python prompt and hit return
<barry> your python client is now primed and ready to talk to launchpad
<barry> the 'launchpad' object is your door into the vast array of objects and actions you can take
<barry> you can think of it as the root of a big tree of resources
<barry> i.e. web resources
<barry> 'launchpad' has a number of top level objects directly under it
<barry> and through it you can access bugs, people, etc
<barry> for example, the first thing you can do is view the person object that represents yourself:
<barry> >>> launchpad.me
<barry> <person at https://api.edge.launchpad.net/beta/~barry>
<barry> it's through 'launchpad.me' that you can script changes to your presence in lp
<barry> for example, if i wanted to see my own display name, i could do
<barry> >>> launchpad.me.display_name
<barry> u'Barry Warsaw'
<barry> note that the value of this attribute is a python unicode
<barry> that's important to keep in mind for those of you with non-ascii characters in your name!
<barry> i can find out if i'm a team <wink>
<barry> >>> launchpad.me.is_team
<barry> False
<barry> and i can see my own timezone
<barry> >>> launchpad.me.time_zone
<barry> u'America/New_York'
<barry> one nice thing you can do is use python's dir() function to see all the things you can find out about an object
<barry> >>> dir(launchpad.me)
<barry> ['FIND_ATTRIBUTES', 'FIND_COLLECTIONS', 'FIND_ENTRIES', 'JSON_MEDIA_TYPE', '__class__', '__delattr__', '__dict__', '__doc__', '__getattr__', '__getattribute__', '__hash__', '__init__', '__members__', '__methods__', '__module__', '__new__', '__reduce__', '__reduce_ex__', '__repr__', '__setattr__', '__str__', '__weakref__', '_create_bound_resource', '_dirty_attributes', '_ensure_representation', '_get_external_param_name', '_get_parameter
<barry> _names', '_root', '_transform_resources_to_links', '_wadl_resource', 'acceptInvitationToBeMemberOf', 'addMember', 'admins', 'confirmed_email_addresses', 'date_created', 'deactivated_members', 'declineInvitationToBeMemberOf', 'display_name', 'expired_members', 'getMembersByStatus', 'hide_email_addresses', 'homepage_content', 'invited_members', 'irc_nicknames', 'is_team', 'is_valid', 'jabber_ids', 'join', 'karma', 'languages', 'latitude',
<barry>  'leave', 'longitude', 'lp_attributes', 'lp_collections', 'lp_entries', 'lp_get_named_operation', 'lp_get_parameter', 'lp_has_parameter', 'lp_operations', 'lp_refresh', 'lp_save', 'mailing_list_auto_subscribe_policy', 'members', 'members_details', 'memberships_details', 'mugshot', 'name', 'open_membership_invitations', 'participants', 'preferred_email_address', 'proposed_members', 'resource_type_link', 'self_link', 'setLocation', 'setLo
<barry> cationVisibility', 'sub_teams', 'super_teams', 'team_owner', 'time_zone', 'visibility', 'wiki_names']
<barry> not all of those are of interest to you though
<barry> method with names starting with an underscore are private
<barry> methods that start with lp_ are special in the sense that they are actions you can take on client-side objects
<barry> they don't correspond to actions in launchpad
<barry> for example, if you make a change to an object, you would need to call lp_save() on it to "push" those changes back to launchpad
<barry> let's say you wanted to get some information on a different user, how would you do that?
<barry> well, there's a 'people' object at the top level, and we can use that to access people by their launchpad id
<barry> e.g.
<barry> >>> launchpad.people['salgado']
<barry> <person at https://api.edge.launchpad.net/beta/~salgado>
<barry> >>> salgado = launchpad.people['salgado']
<barry> >>> salgado.display_name
<barry> u'Guilherme Salgado'
<barry> we can also get people by their email addresses, through a different interface
<barry> >>> salgado = launchpad.people.getByEmail(email='guilherme.salgado@canonical.com')
<barry> >>> salgado.display_name
<barry> u'Guilherme Salgado'
<barry> something important to note here...
<barry> you're used to providing positional arguments in "normal" python
<barry> so by looking at this example, you might ask, why did you type the argument name in the above call?
<barry> (e.g. the 'email=' part)
<barry> the answer is that because of the peculiarities of our wadl definition, the python client side of the rest api doesn't understand positional arguments
<barry> so all method arguments are keyword arguments and must be entered explicitly
<barry> we may fix this some day, but for now, it's something you need to keep in mind
<barry> any questions up 'til now?
<barry> ok
<barry> one other way to find people
<barry> you can actually do a full text search, so if you only know part of a user's name, you can do it like this:
<barry> >>> for person in launchpad.people.find(text='salgado'):
<barry> ...   print person.display_name
<barry> ...
<barry> abel
<barry> agustincsw
<barry> Ariel_salgado
<barry> axlsal
<barry> Bruno Fecchio Salgado
<barry> Camilo Salgado
<barry> and so on...
<barry> similar to the top level object 'people', you have access to bugs, like so:
<barry> >>> bug1 = launchpad.bugs[1]
<barry> >>> bug1.title
<barry> u'Microsoft has a majority market share'
<barry> note that bugs are accessible via their bug id
<barry> currently, the only two top-level objects available are bugs and people
<barry> a lot of the introspective power of python is available to you, so if you're pretty comfortable with python and launchpad, you should be able to build fairly sophisticated applications
<barry> as i mentioned the dir() function above gives you too much information you don't care about, you can use one of the other 'launchpad' objects instead
<barry> e.g. to find out the things you can do to a person, you can try this:
<barry> >>> launchpad.me.lp_operations
<barry> ['leave', 'setLocationVisibility', 'addMember', 'declineInvitationToBeMemberOf', 'join', 'getMembersByStatus', 'setLocation', 'acceptInvitationToBeMemberOf']
<barry> unfortunately, python's built-in help() function is currently not very useful
<barry> a couple of other interesting tidbits
<barry> objects like launchpad.me are called 'entities' and things like launchpad.people are called 'collections'
<barry> thik of entities as the leaves of the big object tree, though of course entities can be linked to other entities or collections
<barry> whenever you make a change to an entity's properties, you need to call 'entity.lp_save()' to save them on launchpad
<barry> otherwise the changes only occur locally and will be lost when you quit your client
<barry> there's also something called a 'hosted file', which you can mostly think of as a binary blob
<barry> your mugshot is that way for example
<barry> to read the data of a hosted file, you need to open it and read it.
<barry> hosted files also have a content_type
<barry> so:
<barry> >>> f = launchpad.me.mugshot.open()
<barry> >>> data = f.read()
<barry> >>> f.content_type
<barry> 'image/jpeg'
<barry> data would now be the image data of your mugshot
<barry> well, i'm just about out of time so let me just repost the documentation link
<barry> https://help.launchpad.net/API/launchpadlib
<barry> and i encourage you to submit enhancement requests and bugs, and in general test out the launchpadlib to script your applications
<barry> i think that's it for me, thanks for your time!
<jcastro> thanks barry!
<iulian> Nice session, thanks barry.
<barry> iulian: thanks!
<stdin> an interesting talk, I already have a couple ideas on what to use launchpadlib for :)
* jcastro changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Current Session:Kernel: From Intrepid to Jaunty | Welcome to Openweek, questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat please || Session details here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
<barry> cheers everyone
<jcastro> ok guys, benc is having some network issues in his hotel room
<jcastro> so we're going to give him a few minutes to sort it out
<jcastro> benc will be discussing what the kernel has been up to this past cycle and what they're planning on doing during the jaunty cycle
 * BenC made it
<BenC> jcastro: Appologies, thanks for contacting me
<jcastro> BenC: no worries
<jcastro> BenC: take it away!
<BenC> Welcome everyone
<BenC> For this session I wanted to review a lot of what we did in Intrepid in relation to the kernel, and how we will apply that to jaunty moving forward
<BenC> For those that followed the development cycle, you will realize we started a new tree called ubuntu-next (not to be confused with linux-next) where we continued to track the latest upstream kernel source
<BenC> This in fact allowed us to make a last minute decision to go with 2.6.27 in Intrepid instead of 2.6.26
<BenC> While over all that paid off, I'm sure it doesn't mean we will always follow bleeding edge that much...it just happened to work out well this time
<BenC> I think we will continue to have an ubuntu-next tree regardless though
<BenC> Laney: QUESTION: What made you decide to switch to .27?
<BenC> The team reviewed a lot of the infrastructure that was going into .27, which would satisfy a lot of hardware support we were aiming for, and additionally fix a lot of issues we were having
<BenC> Most notable in suspend/resume area, and wireless support
<BenC> I don't think we have any regrets on the decision, but it was a little scary having something so new being pushed for release :)
<BenC> It does mean that if jaunty follows past cycles, it will be .28, but we haven't decided that quite yet (UDS topic)
<BenC> One other thing we did in Intrepid was to remove all support for ports from our main tree
<BenC> While this helped us immensely for our main support, it is definite that it also hurt ports such as sparc and powerpc
<BenC> The kernel wasn't as consistent as it had been in the past
<BenC> We will be reviewing this at UDS and decide if certain ports (namely sparc and powerpc) can be added back to our main tree
<BenC> QUESTION: <persia> Is there a plan to change the architecture sets for Jaunty?  Currently there seems to be one kernel for i386/amd64, another for lpia, and yet another for everything else.
<BenC> first off, lpia is a special case...it's been tossed around between the Ubuntu Mobile folks and kernel team, and I think settling this down will be of major concern next cycle.
<BenC> I don't know enough about the criteria for this kernel to comment well
<BenC> But as I just said, some of the ports may find themselves back in the main tree
<BenC> It's worth pointing out that each architecture has it's own set of criteria, and sometimes these clash enough to force a split in development methods
<BenC> We strongly encourage community to help, especially with the ports
<BenC> Any other questions on this before I move on?
<jcastro>  < Laney> QUESTION: What made you decide to switch to .27?
<BenC> jcastro: Already pasted and answered :)
<jcastro> oops, my bad
<BenC> hehe, np
<BenC> Another major change in the kernel development was how we organized third-party modules
<BenC> A lot of what used to be in linux-ubuntu-modules has moved back to the kernel tree under the ubuntu/ subdirectory
<BenC> The reason was consistency in source maint. The split was not giving us any benefit
<BenC> Yet another change was linux-restricted-modules
<BenC> Most of this was split out into dkms style packages for nvidia and fglrx
<BenC> We are trying to encourage more use of dkms, especially in restricted modules
<BenC> The reason is that it allows better support for custom kernels (e.g. -rt)
<BenC> QUESTION: <marrow> Why was it necessary to take these into the kernel? What are the benefits?
<BenC> Easier to maintain, and easier to track ABI, plus module conflicts
<BenC> being built with the kernel retains a lot of the sanity checking that we already have in the kernel build, some which can only be done at build time with the kernel
<BenC> Means we don't have to worry about actual changes in the ABI of these third-party modules, since it will be controlled by the kernel ABI as a whole
<BenC> Before, if linux-ubuntu-modules changed ABI, first off, it would not be noticed or tracked
<BenC> Secondly, it required us to export headers, sometimes conflicting with the kernel headers, for user installed modules to be able to use
<BenC> Jaunty is going to see some continued changes in this area, attempting to build on the experience gained thus far
<BenC> One thing I know is that we will be doing a rework of our firmware packaging, which showed up last minute as linux-firmware in intrepid
<BenC> Ok, so sebner asked what linux-backports-modules was about, and I can answer that quickly
<BenC> It's a package that allows us to introduce new or updated drivers without forcing existing users to install what may be a regression or not very well tested driver
<BenC> This package isn't installed by default, and is generally installed by people experiencing a known problem that we have attempted to fix with an updated version of the driver
<BenC> QUESTION: <johanbr> In the past, it has happened that patches not yet included upstream have been dropped by mistake when the kernel is rebased for the next Ubuntu release, thus causing regressions. Is there a procedure in place to minimize these occurrences?
<BenC> Unfortunately, this is a manual and error prone procedure
<BenC> Usually these patches get dropped because they either fail to apply cleanly, or fail to compile cleanly
<BenC> The person doing this rebase is expected to retain a list of such patches in an effort to reintroduce them later
<BenC> I've been responsible for dropping the ball on this, so I'm definitely not pointing fingers :)
<BenC> That's a good topic for UDS I believe
<BenC> I don't have any good suggestions off-hand
<BenC> QUESTION: <sebner> A goal for jaunty is faster boot time. Did you decide that before knowing this 5 seconds boot thing? Also how many seconds do you think will the 28er kernel be faster? Or do you plan further work on init/xorg? How many seconds to you plan to be faster than intrepid? I hope it's not too early to answer this question
<BenC> Boot time is one of the top priorities for jaunty
<BenC> While a lot of this can be handled in the kernel, a good portion of boot time is unrelated to the kernel itself
<BenC> Compiling in some modules, and reducing the amount of time spent loading and initializing modules is one of the biggest factors I've been informed of so far
<BenC> The exact numbers we want to meet are held by others in the ubuntu dev team. How much we have to reduce it by and where these precious seconds will come from, is a system wide issue
<BenC> The kernel team will definitely do it's part though
<BenC> The first two parts of your question I cannot answer
<BenC> (because I don't know)
<BenC> QUESTION: <gQuigs> How about Kernel Mode Setting for Jaunty?
<BenC> We review all new features in the kernel for whether they will benefit us...kernel-mode-setting is one of them
<BenC> Since it requires some close synchronization with Xorg, it will require more decision making and information that I can provide
<BenC> It is something we want, is the short answer
<BenC> I believe we looked at it for jaunty, but it was still just too unstable for us (required a lot of bleeding edge stuff for Xorg)
<BenC> s/jaunty/intrepid/
<BenC> QUESTION: <gQuigs> what kernel is alpha 1 going to come with, ubuntu-next?
<BenC> ubuntu-next isn't a kernel version, we will be tracking 2.6.28-rc in jaunty, and hope that it will make Alpha 1
<BenC> ubuntu-next is what we use to continue tracking upstream kernel after we have settled on a stable point release
<BenC> it isn't meant for uploading
<BenC> QUESTION: <sebner> What I've read so far is that jaunty will have .28 if not something important leads to 29er. right?
<BenC> That's correct. Our normal development cycle would put us at .28, but that has yet to be decided for sure
<BenC> QUESTION: <Yasumoto> It seems like a lot of cool features (Kernel Mode Setting, faster boot) may require either bleeding-edge upstream stuff or even some work on our end to get it working right. Is there a general feel for how to deal with this balance of new features vs. stability?
<BenC> First off, faster boot doesn't require anything bleeding edge...just some detailed review of the boot process and looking at alternatives to the main problem points
<BenC> Things like kernel-mode-setting, we generally lean toward stability, especially in a feature that is very limited on who benefits, very superficial in the benefit, and very difficult to maintain for 18 months
<BenC> QUESTION: <sebner> This faster boot thing is really popular now. As you just said mostly it's not magic but "some detailed review of the boot process and looking at alternatives to the main problem points". Why do you think wasn't this make earlier. months, years ago?
<BenC> I believe boot time has always been watched...the only thing that seems to have changed was the bar we want to reach for how long is too long
<BenC> Checkout bootchart, and searching google/wiki you will find that it's been used for quite a few years
<BenC> Ok, looks like I have time for one or two more questions is all
<BenC> QUESTION: <sebner> How many dev's work currently on the kernel in ubuntu?
<BenC> As with many community oriented projects, it's hard to put a number on some of these things :)
<BenC> I can tell you that Canonical employs 6 kernel devs now, most of which are dedicated to the dev and stable releases
<sebner> BenC: canoncial guys? .. to make it easier :)
<sebner> heh
<BenC> I would guess at least that many community folks are out there, and several times as many from vendors interested in Ubuntu's kernel
<BenC> e.g. AMD, Intel, nVidia, etc...
<BenC> Last question...
<BenC> QUESTION: <pwnguin> how far in the future before btrfs is default?
<sebner> BenC: mine is last :P
<BenC> I only have two minutes :)
<BenC> pwnguin: My crystal ball is in the shop at the moment...
<BenC> sebner: "maybe"
<sebner> BenC: 50-50?
<BenC> I would say 40-40
<sebner> and 20% are?
<BenC> with 20% going to the off chance ext5 comes out, or reiser is set free
<sebner> heh
<BenC> sebner: Honestly I don't know, but we will bring it up at UDS I'm sure
<pwnguin> 1 in 5 chance. very generous
<jcastro> ok, that's about it for time
<BenC> pwnguin: I was being generous to ext5 :)
<jcastro> thanks Ben and thanks to everyone for participating
<BenC> Thanks everyone!
 * sebner hugs BenC. Thx for answering all the questions 
* jcastro changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Current Session:Contributing to Ubuntu Documentation | Welcome to Openweek, questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat please || Session details here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
<jcastro> ok, one last session for openweek
<jcastro> after this there won't be any more planned sessions in here
<jcastro> of course you can hang out after the session
<jcastro> as always please feel free to mail me comments, jorge@ubuntu.com
<jcastro> DougieRichardson: ok take it away!
<DougieRichardson> Hi all
<DougieRichardson> I'm here to discuss contributing to Ubuntu's documentation
<DougieRichardson> The first link you need to get started is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam
<DougieRichardson> Documentation is split into two main areas - system help and online help
<DougieRichardson> System help is written in DocBook XML and packaged with each release.
<DougieRichardson> Online help, again is split into two areas: help.ubuntu.com which is built from the system documentation
<DougieRichardson> and help.ubuntu.com/community which is where the community contributed wiki docs are
<DougieRichardson> So how do you start conributing?
<DougieRichardson> The easiest place to start is by proof reading. Checking through the system documentation and picking up on errors.
<DougieRichardson> The team itself is split into two groups - committing members and students.
<DougieRichardson> the only difference being that committing members push patches into the current branch.
<DougieRichardson> As a student, you are assigned a mentor to guide you.
<DougieRichardson> The current source can be downloaded from Launchpad
<DougieRichardson> using bzr
<DougieRichardson> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/Repository
<DougieRichardson> Once you have a copy of the docs, the best place to get started is by looking for bugs listed on launchpad
<DougieRichardson> There are two places to look: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-docs for bugs reported against the package
<DougieRichardson> And https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-doc for the team
<DougieRichardson> So lets talk through a typical bug, by following https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-doc
<DougieRichardson> From the filter panel, we click "new"
<DougieRichardson> Lets look at the techreview bug 235079
<DougieRichardson> Here we have a list of corrections that someone has spotted, so we can go right ahead and start correcting them.
<DougieRichardson> The first issue is to find out which file you need to edit - so open a file browser window and navigate to the ubuntu-docs folder
<DougieRichardson> This case is apparent - its in programing
<DougieRichardson> All folders will have two sub-folders, PO and C
<DougieRichardson> PO is for translation, so we need to be in C
<DougieRichardson> Now we can edit the programming.xml file by opening it, looking for the error and amending it.
<DougieRichardson> So now we have a corrected version locally, we need to submit it to the team.
<DougieRichardson> First though we will check that they are valid and will not break the package.
<DougieRichardson> From the ubuntu-doc folder, run scripts/validate.sh index.xml
<DougieRichardson> We need to run it on the root because otherwise it will pick up errors from linked files.
<DougieRichardson> OK so it validates, now we create a patch to submit.
<DougieRichardson> This involves just two commands:
<DougieRichardson> bzr commit -m "Describe the change, include a bug number"
<DougieRichardson> bzr bundle > diffname.txt
<DougieRichardson> Or, if its just a small patch then bzr diff > patch.txt will do
<DougieRichardson> Add a comment to the original bug attaching your patch and you've fixed your first bug.
<DougieRichardson> So that brings us on to the second area we work on - the community docs.
<DougieRichardson> As long as you have a Launchpad account, you can add and edit community documentation
<DougieRichardson> http://www.ubuntu.com/community
<DougieRichardson> Sorry - http://help.ubuntu.com/community
<DougieRichardson> The best way to approach assisting on the wiki is to look up subjects you are familiar with.
<DougieRichardson> If there is already a page, then you can proof read it for errors and improve it.
<DougieRichardson> Otherwise you can create a page.
<DougieRichardson> We just ask that you read the first page and follow the guide.
<DougieRichardson> Both types of documentation are under a creative commons licence
<DougieRichardson> Well that about covers it, so we'll move on to questions now. Remember that the largest problem that we have as a team is getting enough contributers. This is especially true for the wiki where we would love to get all the fantastic community howtos that are out there centralised.
<DougieRichardson> So, lets take questions now.
<DougieRichardson> OK, what are the main areas that still need work?
<DougieRichardson> For the community docs, we would like to import as much from the forums as possible.
<DougieRichardson> This requires that we get the permission of the original writer.
<DougieRichardson> So if you see a great guide, nudge the writer to submit it to the team.
<ssole> how do you manage translations?
<DougieRichardson> Our mailing list is here: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-doc
<DougieRichardson> Translations are managed by Matthew East
<DougieRichardson> The best place to start is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Translation
<DougieRichardson> We use Rosetta
<DougieRichardson> About two or three weeks before release, we eter string freeze.
<DougieRichardson> Then the translators have a chance to translate all the changed strings for release.
<DougieRichardson> I have to go in a few minutes, so I'd like to wrap up here.
<DougieRichardson> Are there any more questions?
<DougieRichardson> OK, The main link to remember is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam
<DougieRichardson> If you can contribute any time or docs to us, or recommend any for us to follow up - its greatly appreciated.
<DougieRichardson> Thanks for your time and I'l hand back over to jcastro now
<jcastro> thanks everyone!
<jcastro> see you next time!
<knome> \o/
<knome>  |
<knome> /'\
<james_w> nice work jcastro
<knome> definitely.
<knome> i wish i had more time to take part on the conversations.
<charlie-tca> great job this week, jcastro
<snap-l> Awesome job, jcastro
#ubuntu-classroom 2008-11-08
<srikar> I hav a doubt, why aren't the developers developing a single package which installs a software directly(something like an exeor a bigger deb wid all dependencies included ),While manual installation we face lots of problems and in our locality most of the frnDZZ donot hav an internet connection.Why arent developers focussing on this issue??
<srikar> anybody there??
<srikar> I am leaving if u hav an answer do mail me plzz srikar_arepalli@yahoo.co.in, I am waiting for ur reply.
 * NickG_ reads his IRC logs of the bug fixing lesson yesterda
<henk_online> hi is somebody familiar with update manager and a proxy
<pinkeytheperky> Hi every one
#ubuntu-classroom 2008-11-09
<WastePotato> :/
<persia> jcastro, Could you update the topic to point to a more general classroom schedule?
<persia> pleia2, Do you know of a good URL to use for that?
<pleia2> yeah, wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom
<pleia2> I can snag the old topic, sec
<persia> The Schedule there probably needs updating too :)  I'm guessing DeveloperWeek is in March?
* pleia2 changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to:  Ubuntu Classroom || https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/Ubuntu-classroom || See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek for details on the most recent Ubuntu Open Week (Intrepid)
<persia> Jaunty MOTU School curriculum hasn't been established yet.
<pleia2> yeah, updating the wiki page is on my todo list :(
<persia> Who's organising the user-training sessions for Jaunty?
<pleia2> user-training sessions?
<persia> Or rather, for Intrepid, as user-training is typically based on current-stable :)
<pleia2> the Classroom project itself unfortunately doesn't have anything planned
<pleia2> right now this channel is primarily used for open week, developers week, and motu school
<pleia2> trying to get user training courses up again, but I've been busy and we lost of a few key team members
<persia> Do you already have someone in charge of organising the curriculum?
<pleia2> nope
<pleia2> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom/Volunteer
<persia> Right.  Thanks for the status update :)
<pleia2> welcome
<PrivateVoid> hey pleia2 how are you?
<pleia2> PrivateVoid: doing pretty good :) you?
 * pleia2 just recently moved, still settling in
<PrivateVoid> I am good... been a while since I have seen this room go 'red'
<pleia2> hehe
<pleia2> well there was Ubuntu Open Week all last week ;)
<pleia2> but yeah, otherwise it's been quiet
<PrivateVoid> I think the Beginners team will be looking to 'add' some stuff here eventually
<pleia2> yeah, I've been talking to Rocket2DMn some about that
<pleia2> we had lunch a few weeks ago :)
<PrivateVoid> Cool... I do not think I am close enough to have lunch with you
<pleia2> probably not
<pleia2> he just moved into the area, I took it upon myself to introduce him to yummy local beer places
 * pleia2 near Philadelphia
<PrivateVoid> I am in Rochester, NY area
<pleia2> I lived there once :)
<PrivateVoid> cool...
<PrivateVoid> where?
<pleia2> my mother grew up just outside or Rochester, in Rome, I still have a lot of family there
<pleia2> lived in Brockport for a while
<PrivateVoid> Rome is more towards Syracuse... where I grew up
<pleia2> Scottsville?? I think is where I lived last
<PrivateVoid> Brockport and Scottsville is near Rochester
<pleia2> yeah, scottsville
<PrivateVoid> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/FocusGroups/Education
<pleia2> and spent a couple years in Seneca Falls (that's about halfway between Rochester and Syracuse)
<PrivateVoid> I am going to try to get that group going... have them run the courses in our area and then have them come in to here... or that is the plan
<PrivateVoid> yeah Seneca Falls is half-way
<pleia2> having them come here would be good
<PrivateVoid> and used to have a weapons depot there with lots of 'white deer'
<pleia2> part of what Classroom tries to achieve is have one centralized place in ubuntu for all irc classes
<pleia2> so when it's announced on fridge, UWN, etc - everyone knows were to come :)
<PrivateVoid> I want them to practice in the BT classroom... to get comfortable with the method of instruction
<PrivateVoid> Cool...
<pleia2> so MOTU School is here
<PrivateVoid> do you guys recommend using any other tools beyond IRC for classes?
<pleia2> when Ubuntu Women does classes, we host them here
<PrivateVoid> I need to get better at development...
<PrivateVoid> great
<PrivateVoid> I think the BT classes are in here...
<pleia2> in the past we haven't had people use many other tools, but sometimes people have wiki pages w/ screenshots and such
<PrivateVoid> anyone ever try google docs or pastebin?
<pleia2> I think pastebin might have been used in the past, but the trouble with that is they go away - logs of sessions lacking key access to google docs or missing pastebins are sad
<pleia2> and frustrating :)
<PrivateVoid> yeah... I would just want to use it for 'programming' courses -- problems and answers type thing
<pleia2> would be worth discussing I think
<PrivateVoid> yeah...
<pleia2> I don't have any ideas off the top of my head, but I'm sure others would
<PrivateVoid> I am knee deep in getting involved in the NY Loco right now and getting the Education group standing up
<PrivateVoid> just redid the NY Loco wiki front page - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NewYorkTeam
<pleia2> nice :) I've been talking to ausimage some
<PrivateVoid> yeah ausimage is a good guy... I met him recently for the first time...
<PrivateVoid> the scribs team is a great idea...
<PrivateVoid> was he talking about running classes?
<pleia2> nah, I was talking to him about loco teams
<PrivateVoid> ah....
<PrivateVoid> what about?
<pleia2> I'm on the US Mentors team, such as it is these days :)
<PrivateVoid> what is that?
<pleia2> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/USTeams
<pleia2> mostly we're just a resource for US Teams who need help
<PrivateVoid> I see...
<PrivateVoid> well I think we need help... a bit... to get us over the 'hump' to approval
<PrivateVoid> but I am hoping that my enthusiasm has re-energized ausimage and brian...
 * pleia2 nods
<PrivateVoid> they seemed to be excited about things after I talked to them
<pleia2> well you're welcome to join #ubuntu-us at any time if you run into anything you're not sure how to handle
<pleia2> lots of helpful people there with ideas
<PrivateVoid> I am trying to use my past 'gaming' experiences to assist with this process... I played two MMORPGs and built two guilds
<pleia2> nice :)
<PrivateVoid> both guilds ended up being some of the largest in the games
<PrivateVoid> and the challenge of keeping people together in a LoCo appear to be similar in that in some cases face-to-face meetings will be near impossible or at best rare
<pleia2> in pennsylvania we're all just very active on IRC
<pleia2> our channel is rarely dead
<PrivateVoid> thanks for the invite ti #ubuntu-us I will make sure to get it in place
<pleia2> quite welcome :)
<PrivateVoid> yeah... NYs channel was dead until recently
<PrivateVoid> I need to get that place hopping
<PrivateVoid> like the BT teams or Arizona's
 * pleia2 nods
<pleia2> I was in the beginners team channel for a while, I think I quit when I rebooted once.. oops
<pleia2> I do want to strongly encourage using this channel rather than your own -classroom though :)
<PrivateVoid> I also think, and told ausimage, that there are two main 'flow patterns' for a state LoCo
<pleia2> don't worry too much about people practicing, most folks who give normal classes in the past really are just normal folks who know something they can share with others
<PrivateVoid> upstream - helping to get NY Ubuntu users contributing to the global community
<PrivateVoid> downstream - advocating for the use of Ubuntu to our local communities
 * pleia2 nods
<PrivateVoid> Cool... then I will plan on having the classes here... is there a system for reserving the time?
<pleia2> just drop a note to the mailing list
<pleia2> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/Ubuntu-classroom
<pleia2> I'll update the wiki and let you know if there are any conflicts (not a risk right now, it's been pretty quiet of late, as you know!)
 * pleia2 bumps updating of wiki in general to higher priority on todo list
<PrivateVoid> subscribed
<pleia2> :)
<zinkeldonk> \help
#ubuntu-classroom 2009-11-02
<mauri> test
<Animagladius> Night, world.
<Corsakh> hey guys
<Corsakh> how can i install LVM with Ubuntu?
<Corsakh> I did not have this option using 9.10 Live CD
<sam_> mike there??
<sam_> usersgroup - president.
<jmarsden> This is #ubuntu-classroom.  Those seeking help about Ubuntu are more likely to get it in #ubuntu
<sam_> k
<sam_> thanks
<jayt> help
<jmarsden> This is #ubuntu-classroom.  Those seeking help about Ubuntu are more likely to get it in #ubuntu
<Peon> anyone able to answer a question about raid 5?
<MaximB> what was the question ?
<Peon> Yesterday my raid dropped 4 of the 7 HDs. I think I have the problem fix, but I'm not totally sure I put the drives back in the same slots, is there anyway to check? or does it really matter?
<MaximB> using ubuntu ?
<Peon> I would be lost if I loose the raid, it has everything I've ever done since I got my first computer..
<MaximB> you can check if you have admda installed ?
<Peon> Ya, its on the server downstairs.. I'm not all that good with linux
<Peon> sure can, back in a flash.
<jmarsden> mdadm, not admda
<Peon> Oh,, Ya, thats what I used to build the raid.
<jmarsden> OK, so what does cat /proc/mdstat show you now?
<MaximB> jmarsden:  right...
<MaximB> it's been some time ...
<MaximB> mdadm
<jmarsden> Peon: This is #ubuntu-classroom.  Those seeking help about Ubuntu are more likely to get it in #ubuntu ... you are very fortunate anyone answered you here :)
<MaximB> been bored ;)
<MaximB> jmarsden:  what's the diff between this channel and the ubuntu-classroom-chat channel ?
<Peon> From what I've seen, I'm lucky to get an answer anywhere.. it died yesterday, for two days I've been trying to find anyone who would help.
<jmarsden> MaximB: #ubuntu-classrom is where the teacher teaches, #ubuntu-classroom-chat is where others chat about what he is saying, ask questions, etc.
<jmarsden> Peon: #ubuntu should be the right place.  Anyway... what is cat /proc/mdstat showing you ?
<Peon> it says that md0 is inactive
<jmarsden> pastebin all of its output, please.
<Peon> I'll try.. its not on this sytem but the one downstairs.. and I could never get the VNC working.
<jmarsden> Since it is inactive, it is not currently working.  The Ubuntu server downstairs has no Internet connection??
<jmarsden> Peon: Can you ssh into the "downstairs" machine from the "upstairs" machine?
<Peon> It doesn't have a direct connction to the net.. i wanted to keep it safe.
<jmarsden> Peon: How do you keep it updated with security fixes etc?
<Peon> Personalities : [linear] [multipath] [raid0] [raid1] [raid6] [raid5] [raid4] [raid10]
<Peon> md0 : inactive sde1[0](S) sdh1[3](S) sdf1[1](S) sdg1[2](S) sdb1[5](S) sdc1[6](S) sda1[4](S)
<Peon>       6837319552 blocks
<Peon> unused devices: <none>
<jmarsden> actually that might be somewhat OK... it can at least see all the drives...
<Peon> updates? HMMMM... I think I should rethink the design.
<jmarsden> I think so too :)  But for now we need to try and get that RAID active again...
<Peon> so the only real question I have right now is, how can i tell if I put the drives back in the right order?
<MaximB> Peon:  on one hand as long as it doesn't have internet access none can hack it unless within physical contact, on the other hand updates could be for usability and features and not just security
<Peon> Ya, its just ment to be a place to dump everything so we can stream video to every room in the house.
<MaximB> Peon:  I wonder, how much GB the RAID has ?
<Peon> 6 TB
<MaximB> wow
<MaximB> are you an hosting service or something ? ;0
<Peon> Its mostly TV..
<MaximB> I got 1TB on my PC at home , only 1 HD , no RAIDs
<jmarsden> Peon: Most people doing home-made RAID write numbers on the drives and the cables with a permanent marker, so you can easily check that...
<MaximB> what's done is done
<Peon> i've been collecting TV shows since forever.. :-)
<MaximB> me too , via torrents
<MaximB> btw dexter s4e6 came out yet ?
<Peon> Well, heres the thing, Its just two drives that may or may not be in the right order.. i know the rest are.. Just not sure about the last two.
<Peon> yes, Dexter is out.
<jmarsden> Peon: The numbers in [] in the mdstat output are (I think!) the disk id numbers within the RAID.  Do you know what the original setup was -- drive 0 on the left, then 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6
<Peon> Yes, it was 0,1,2,3,4,5,6
<jmarsden> So right now we have 0=sde1, 1=sdf1, 2=sdg1, 3=sdh1, 4=sda1, 5=sdb1, 6=sdc1
<jmarsden> So that looks reasonably likely to be right.
<jmarsden> e,f,g,h and a,b,c are nice and orderly
<Peon> No, 0 should be sda1 i think.
<jmarsden> Peon: Then you have *way* more than 2 drives wrong :)
<jmarsden> If it went a,b,c, e,f,g,h then every single drive is "wrong" right now.
<Peon> Sorry, my way of describing it is wrong.. there are two esata cables going to the raid
<MaximB> I wonder why sda1 is not 0
<Peon> both esada's have a breakout box that has 4 drives in it..
<jmarsden> Peon: So is your real question... "did I hook up the two cables the right way around?"
<Peon> so if it looks wrong, then it will look totally wrong.. And i think your right, it looks totally wrong.
<Peon> yes.. And I think you've answered my question.. I'm shutting it down now and making the change..
<jmarsden> Peon: Ok, power down, swap the two cables and reboot and check cat /proc/mdstat again.
<jmarsden> OK.
<Peon> I'd kinda like to sell this setup and go with one that has 8 - 2TB drives.. This one is getting kinda full.
<ab000dy> hello
<MaximB> hi
<Peon> Hi
<ab000dy> i heed help in openmpi could you pls help me
<ab000dy> HI
<MaximB> well, it's not a help channel ...
<jmarsden> ab000dy: This is #ubuntu-classroom.  Those seeking help about Ubuntu are more likely to get it in #ubuntu
<jmarsden> Peon: Did the cable swap work for you?
<Peon> Personalities : [linear] [multipath] [raid0] [raid1] [raid6] [raid5] [raid4] [raid10]
<Peon> md0 : inactive sdb1[1](S) sdf1[5](S) sdg1[6](S) sde1[4](S) sdd1[3](S) sdc1[2](S) sda1[0](S)
<Peon>       6837319552 blocks
<Peon> unused devices: <none>
<Peon> that looks right.
<Peon> does that look right?
<jmarsden> Looks more logical, yes.
<Peon> Ok, so can I do anykind of test before mounting?
<MaximB> there is a way , I think
<MaximB> but the problem I had , didn't even let me mount it, I had to use --force and then it worked
<MaximB> no data loss
<jmarsden> You can try to mount the filesystem read only first.  If that fails you may end up trying out the rather scary instructions at http://www.faqs.org/docs/Linux-HOWTO/Software-RAID-HOWTO.html#s6 to rewrite your RAID superblocks?
<Peon> sheet.. I cant risk it.. I'm just going to have to get someone to come here and fix it..
<MaximB> I think it should look like this :
<MaximB> mdadm -A sda1 sdb1 sdc1 sde1 sdf1 sdg1
<MaximB> but fist mdadm -s
<MaximB> *first
<Peon> This is too scary for my liking.. All my daughters pictures are on it too.. Do a raid 5 your stuff will be safe... Sigh.
<jmarsden> Peon: No... use a RAID array *and* back it up offsite, and you will *usually* be safe ...
<Peon> Ya.. I figured out this thing cost me $1100 just for the drives and the case.. I can just guess how much it would cost to back up off site would be.. hahahah
<jmarsden> Another $1100 plus bandwidth costs.  Yes.  But that's basically what businesses who have data that is valuable do to try and protect it.  Anyway, at least we answered the first part of your question and you now seem to have the cables connected the right way.
<Peon> Yup.. it does look that way.. hey, can I do a chkdsk on it?
<jmarsden> chkdsk does not exist in Ubuntu as far as I know.  Once you have the RAID active you could do an e2fsck on the filesystem.
<Peon> I remember reading something about unmounting it before you do some kind of check on it.. Hmmm
<jmarsden> Until you have the RAID showing as active there is no filesystem which can be checked.
<MaximB> fsck
<Peon> Ya.. maybe not file system.. maybe it was to check that the structure was setup right.
<MaximB>  mdadm -s for checking
<Peon> Ida know, I'll look into it tomorrow.. the laptop batterys are just about dead..
<MaximB> ok
<MaximB> see you
<Peon> thanks for your help.. I'll be back tomorrow for classes.. hahahah
<jmarsden> Goodnight.
<Peon> later all.
<balto> ame
<ShizzlePDX503> hello everyone
<sam_> hello
<ShizzlePDX503> guess everyone is sleeping!
<sam_> is anyone here?
<MaximB> I am
<MaximB> but the class isn't started yet
<sam_> oh
<ShizzlePDX503> thats true... though there was no mention as to what timezone it started in
<ShizzlePDX503> at least I didn't see it
<sam_> when i was trying to install 9.10, the installation hung on the last bit when it was finalising the installation, so I just crashed it and pulled the CD out, and it sort of seemed to run alright, is that very bad?
<ShizzlePDX503> was is a fresh install
<sam_> it seems to run alright, although when you turn on the computer it seems to have some small issue with mounting some mysterious drive, but it seems to not worry about it too much, and loads up anyway
<sam_> yes it was a fresh install.
<sam_> I first tried to install kubuntu and it did the same thing, but it seemed to work
<ShizzlePDX503> and you have no idea what drive it is trying to mount?
<sam_> but I didn't like kubuntu, it was really weird, sort of like using knoppix, so I put on ubuntu insted
<sam_> nah I dunno, maybe c: which I keep XP on? Dunno why it would want to mount it
<sam_> I have been using the text based install, as it seems more comforting, maybe I should try the liveCD?
<ShizzlePDX503> yeah I would do a livecd install cause if you are trying to keep your XP partition intact
<ShizzlePDX503> sounds like grub didn't configure properly
<sam_> grub seems to work fine, I can load up windows, or I can load up ubuntu
<sam_> the only real issue I am having, is that trying to watch video's online like youtube, the performance is very bad
<sam_> I can't see why youtube shouldn't work, my computer is quite powerful
<ShizzlePDX503> I have been having problems with youtube as well
<ShizzlePDX503> the play button won't work for some reason
<ShizzlePDX503> everything was working perfectly in jaunty
<ShizzlePDX503> hello
<NET||abuse> hi :)
<ShizzlePDX503> what time does this session start?
<NET||abuse> 3 hours i think.
<ShizzlePDX503> oh ok thanks
 * nigel_nb is away: I'm not here..Ping me..I'll reply soon
<limp> Hi?
<drorata> hallo
<drorata> can anyone see me?
<jussi01> no :P
<drorata> :)
<drorata> I guess this is the right place to post an UBUNTU question, isn't it?
<jussi01> no
<jussi01> support is in #ubuntu
<drorata> OK. sorry...
<TheOne> hi every1
<TheOne> what we have in this classroom???
<TheOne> any1 here listening???
<TheOne> can some1 teach me abt airodump-ng???
<Stunner> post on te forums
<Stunner> the*
<Stunner> you will get better help there
<TheOne> actually most of the material is for airodump but there are differences b/w airodump and airodump-ng!!!
<Xubuntu> hello
<Xubuntu> anyone here
<Stunner> ya
<Stunner> sup?
<Xubuntu> ^^ ty im here because i tried to install wubi on windows 7 i cant
<dutchie> Xubuntu: join #ubuntu for support
<dutchie> there'll be more people if nothing else
<Stunner> fosho
<Xubuntu> anyone know if we have beta wubi for windows 7??
<ravikumar> Hi can anybody help me with my problem http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1310355
<ravikumar> Hello
<ravikumar> Hi can anybody help me with my problem http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1310355
<jasonjang> just testing --> testing, 1, 2, 3
<jasonjang> date -u
<shushek> Hello all
<TheFunkbomb> so how does this work?
<shushek> i was able to toggle betwwn the two workspaces in 8.04 LTS by simply rolling the mouse wheel. But since i upgradeed to 9.10 am unable to do so.. can anyone tell me why?
<TheFunkbomb> shushek, support is in #ubuntu
<decodedthought> can someone help me with http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1310919
<TheFunkbomb> decodedthought, support is #ubuntu
<decodedthought> sorry !
<shushek> The Funkbomb, could you be kind in providing any link or something by which i can start my search
<TheFunkbomb> shushek, try #ubuntu or ubuntuforums.org
<MaximB> 1 hour till the teaching begins ?
<shushek> I am unable to toggle between the workspaces by scrolling the mouse wheel in 9.10 which i was able to in 8.04, wht is missing?
<shushek> i doubt that this converation is over ?
<shushek> Funkbomb, i didnt got any reply form #ubuntu..
<TheFunkbomb> you have to wait a bit
<TheFunkbomb> this isn't the channel to get support
<shushek> as you say sire
<TheFunkbomb> not as I say, I have no official presence.  It's in the topic
<MaximB> TheFunkbomb: how much time till the lesson starts ?
<dutchie> 3 hours or so
<TheFunkbomb> I have no idea
<MaximB> wow
<TheFunkbomb> I'm setting up logging so I don't miss anything
<MaximB> I thought in 40 minutes
 * jasonjang is away: ìë¦¬ ë¹ìëë¤.
<dutchie> Mon Nov  2 12:21:30 UTC 2009
<popey> jasonjang: could you please turn that away spam off.
<br549> hi, does anyone know if ubuntu moblin remix supports multiple user accounts?
<philkav> hi - can anyone help me with a boot loader problem?
<pleia2> support is in #ubuntu, this channel is for hosting classes - like Ubuntu Open Week, starting later today :)
<philkav> ok thanks
<Loisha> hello
<yos> When are the classes starting ?
<pleia2> yos: 15:00 UTC
<yos> Cool
<Loisha> date -u
<Loisha> i m from switzerland
<Loisha> what time do they start in my country?
<pleia2> Loisha: in an hour and a half
<Loisha> thankx
<prabodha1> date -u
<xantara> hi anybody from kenya here?
<rbscycle> Is 9.10 actually available for iBook G4 MAC?
<rbscycle> I am currently on my iBook G4 ubder Ubuntu 8.04...
<jayvee_zzZZ> yep
<jayvee_zzZZ> look for ubuntu-ports
<rbscycle> thanks
<jayvee_zzZZ> technically 'unsupported' though
<jayvee_zzZZ> would highly recommend opensuse or fedora for ppc
<X3MBoy> ping
<slyph> Pong
<X3MBoy> sorry, I was testing my connection
<slyph> anyone able to answer a quick noobie question?
<slyph> Always wise
<rbscycle> been using the iBook G4 for a while.  Only problem is "YouTube" it needs an update (Flash) which isn't available fot PPC!  RATZ!
<X3MBoy> h
<TheFunkbomb> do people not read the topic?  Support in #ubuntu
<mic> nick ottofit
<rbscycle> My other PC just got upgraded to Kubun tu 9.10.  I guess my iBook G4 will have to wait till I burn a CD.
<|Logitech|> zabac, serbia?
<|Logitech|> :)
<zabac> yes :)
<|Logitech|> omg
<|Logitech|> hvala bogu neki srbin
<|Logitech|> :)
<Matthieu> Jour.
<fuller9box> testing testing
<pleia2> hey folks, just so you know - this channel will be used for sessions, chat will take place in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<rbscycle> I am in Newmarket Ontario Canada
<zakaria> test
<Bush> at what times are sessions held?
<sebsebseb> hi
<pleia2> Bush: they start in ~7 minutes
<fuller9box> is this the right place to be in order to hear sessions?
<sebsebseb> fuller9box: yes
<fuller9box> Thank you, sebsebseb
<X3MBoy> Is there a schedule for sessions???
<Bush> one starts in about 2 minutes  X3MBoy
<sebsebseb> X3MBoy: yes  http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
<Bush> or so I was told :-D
<fuller9box> X3Mboy: look here, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
<virusuy> hi everyone!
<jcastro_> Just a few more minutes everyone!
<jono> oi oi folks :)
<fuller9box> can i record sessions that i cannot attend? If so how plz - thanks
<sebsebseb> hi jono
<jaytheblogger> Hi Jono
<fuller9box> hi jono
<virusuy> hi joaopinto
<ejat> hi jono :)
<virusuy> hi jono
<sebsebseb> fuller9box: this room gets logged
<jpds> fuller9box: Logs will be available at irclogs.ubuntu.com
<airurando> hi jono
<jono> lets give it a minute for late folks to arrive
<jono> particularly with the time zone changes around the world
<jcastro> Thanks everyone for showing up!
<jcastro> already almost 200 people!
<fuller9box> sebsebseb, jpds - thanks 4 that
<sebsebseb> fuller9box: np
<jono> good to see all these folks arriving :)
<openweek9> hi
<Bush> is there voice I am unaware of or is it all text? (I have never used IRC anything)
<jono> Bush, it will be just text
<Bush> Sweet and thank you
<virusuy> Bush: if you want to ear jono's voice, go to twit.tv :P
<jono> virusuy, lol
<X3MBoy> Bush: depend of your client, but it's just text in escence...
<openweek9> let's go people
* pleia2 changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to Ubuntu Open Week! https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | Current Session: Introduction - Jono Bacon
* jcastro changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to Ubuntu Open Week! https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek || All questions go in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<jono> alright
<jono> I think we are about ready
<jono> so before we begin, lets see where everyone is from
<jono> folks, let me know the town and country you are living in
<Dig> [be]
<virusuy> jono: I'm from Uruguay !!!
<DilbertDave> Exmouth, UK
<gabriele> [it]
<dutchie> worcester, UK
<openweek3_> Germany Hagen
<Rohirrim> Mumbai, India
<openweek8_> Vancouver BC
<TheFunkbomb> CT, USA
<openweek9__> Tienen, BE
<zakaria> Jakarta, Indonesia
<mauri1> Im from Uruguay
<miquel_puig> Barcelona, Catalonia
<SplitHorizon> Jacksonville, FL USA
<openweek9> Aberdeen, UK
<nameiner> Raleigh, NC
<akgraner> Union Mills, NC
<jedler> Leopoldshoehe, Germany
<manouche> York, UK
<DRice> jono, hanover, germany
<tyche> Fountain Hills, Arizona, USA
<syzygy> los angeles, ca, usa
<der_karle> Germany, Paderborn
<LeChacal> Flint, MI, USA
<Milyardo> Flint, Michigan
<ejat> Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia
<airurando> Athy, Co. Kildare, Ireland.
<SjB> London, Ontario, CAN
<Bush> Fairchild Airforce base Wa {US}
<esomeprazole> Philippines
<eny_> Tallinn, Estonia
<ion> Tampere, Finland
<Dineren> KS, USA
<pyrosrock> Melbourne, Australia
<jtniehof> Brookline, MA, US (going to be Boston in about an hour when I go to work)
<sebsebseb> Near Bristol England
<h00k> WI, USA
<k0m0d0> Amsterdam, NL
<chruck> Greenville SC
<lifer999> Toronto, Canada
<JonyBlaze> Norfolk,VA,USA
<yos> Akko, Israel
<ScottK> Ellicott City, MD, USA
<dwiasharialdy> bandung, indonesia
<Marcelo> Argentina
<jono> awesome!
<fuller9box> south london
<jono> thanks for letting me know folks
<LaserJock> Hanscom AFB, MA, USA
<cstudent> Portsmouth, OH
<rrnwexec> Vancouver BC, Canada.
<IdleOne> Good morning and happy UOW
<Loisha> switzerland
<Mindfulgeek> Boston, MA
<jono> I am from the Bay Area in California, and it is rather early here :)
<prabodha1> Colombo, Sri Lanka
<charlie-tca> Boise, Idaho, USA
<tavish> delhi, india
<jono> so, welcome to Ubuntu Open Week everyone!
<Spajderix> Legnica, Poland
<sebsebseb> IdleOne: Or afternoon or whatever, depending on time zone
<openweek4__> Hi everyone
<Dig> Antartica! It's cold
<PabloRubianes> Montevideo, Uruguay
<jono> for those of you who are new to Ubuntu Open Week, I am going to explain how the week works
<IdleOne> sebsebseb: yup :)
 * funkyPants sits on jono 
<jono> I am going to discuss the concept of the week, where you can find out more and how you can get involved
<snap-l> Macomb, MI
<jono> Ubuntu Open Week was created a number of cycles back as a means in which we can introduce new members of our community to many of the skills of how you contribute
<jono> the goal is simple: we provide a week of IRC tuition sessions, you good people join and learn the awesome content, and you can take these skills and contribute to Ubuntu
<jono> we have an absolutely phenomenal community, which is underlined by a strong sense of family
<jono> together we work on Ubuntu and what connects us together in many cases is a strong sense of the Ubuntu ethos - a deep running feeling of working on something that can benefit many people around the world
<jono> we want to encourage as many people to join our family and indulge in that ethos, and Ubuntu Open Week was designed to make this possible
<jono> now, a key attribute in our community is that we want to build a diverse community - you don't have to be a superstar programmer to get involved in Ubuntu
<jono> we have many sub-communities, each of which cover a diverse range of skills
<jono> these include documentation, development, translations, advocacy, testing, art and more
<jono> together each of these sub-communities knits together to work on Ubuntu and the result is not only each release every six months, but also the incredible global community that we have come together to build
<Arex> i was thinking about getting involved in packaging, but I only have a small bit of programming experience, what do you think?
<canthus13> j/ignore #ubuntu-classroom +JOINS +PARTS +QUITS
<jcastro> Arex, all questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat please, we're in the middle of a session now
<jono> for those of you who don't know me, my name is Jono Bacon, and I work at Canonical as the Ubuntu Community Manager, and my job is to help build a strong, enabled, productive and fun community like this
<IdleOne> Arex: www.ubuntu.com and click on the get involved link for more info
<jono> on my team I have dholbach: Daniel Holbach, jcastro: Jorge Castro, and dpm: David Planella - if you have any questions this week about anything Ubuntu related, I encourage you to contact them
<jono> so, this is how it works
<jono> if you take a look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek you will see a grid filled with discussion sessions
<faberglas> j/ignore #ubuntu-classroom =JOINS =PARTS =QUITS
<jono> each of those discussions sessions will take place in this channel
<jono> one of our incredible community members will deliver the session over IRC, just like this
<jono> they will type the information and you can read it
<Loisha> j/ignore #ubuntu-classroom =JOINS =PARTS =QUITS
<jono> now, you should also join #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<jono> you can join it by typing: /join #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<jono> in that channel you can discuss the session as it progresses
<jono> folks, please *do not* discuss anything in here
<jono> if you do, you very may well get kicked out by one of the ops
<jono> keep *all* discussion in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<jono> I now expect a discussion to begin about my beard
<ninadsp> /ignore #ubuntu-classroom +JOINS +PARTS +QUITS
<jono> I am cool with that :)
<jono> :P
<jcastro> If it gets out of hand we'll +m the channel, but then it's less fun
<jono> indeed
<jcastro> so please remember to show courtesy to the current speaker
<jono> with each session, attendees typically want to ask questions
<jono> the way this works is simple
 * FunnyBeard likes to sit on jono's face :p
<jono> in #ubuntu-classroom-chat ask a question using 'QUESTION' at the beginning
<jono> here is an example:
<jono> QUESTION: Why are Iron Maiden the greatest band that has ever existed, ever?
<jono> remember, you should keep *all* questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<rbscycle> QUESTION: will there be a fix for Flash update for the PPC?
<jono> as the session progresses, the session leader will pick out questions and answer them in here
<jono> rbscycle, as I just said, don't ask questions in here, but in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<jono> so an example answer:
<BluesKaj> howdy
<jono> (a real question, strangely:)
<jono> <jonos_beard> QUESTION: Why is jono's beard so awesome
<jono> no-one really knows, it has been spoken about by generations, yet the original awesomeness is unclear
<jono> so thats it folks, simple as that
<jono> we have a stack of sessions going on this week, and you can always see the schedule at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
<jono> you can also see logs of the sessions at irclogs.ubuntu.com
<jono> so, we have a little bit of time available for questions (in #ubuntu-classroom-chat) - any questions I can answer?
<openweek4__> QUESTION:How can i increase the video memory of ubuntu in virtual box
<jcastro> (some other info real quick while people queue up questions)
<jono> <rrnwexec> QUESTION: Are we limiting the scope of questions in this session?
<jcastro> We have a brochure at the site now if you want to print a schedule
<jcastro> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
<jono> all questions are welcome :)
<jcastro> also, the calendar is broken so we're fixing that now
<jono> jcastro, ahhh yes, thanks Jorge, I forgot to mention that
<akgraner> <Solarion> QUESTION: how can small LOCOs overcome their smallness? Inter-distro collab? Wider-area aggregation? Other?
<jono> <Mindfulgeek> QUESTION: Where do you see the biggest need for help is?
<pompeyrodney> can anyone tell me if a non destructive format is posible please?
<jono> akgraner, I will post them in here
<jono> Mindfulgeek, we need help everywhere
<jono> Mindfulgeek, but I am personally really keen to see us have more packagers involved in the project :)
 * akgraner blushes.. turns help button down a notch or two and steps away from the caffeine
<jono> Solarion, as for LoCo smallness, I don't think a LoCo needs to grow any bigger than it feels it needs to, but to grow it should focus on encouraging more local Ubuntu members to join, and use this membership to do good work, and then go on to work with other groups such as LUGs
<sks> I HAVE INSTALLED UBUNTU 9.10 AND MY GRUB VERSION SEEM TO BE VERSION 1.97~beta4
<sks> is this correct???
<MooDoo> sks: probably the wrong place to ask right now :)
<dholbach> sks: do you think you can ask that question in #ubuntu-classroom-chat?
<jono> <jrwren_> QUESTION: I'm not familiar with some of the words on the Schedule, could you define Byobu and WIOS ?
<sks> im sorry
<mhall119|work> might want to mute non-ops in this channel
<jono> a quick google should help - byobu is a screen-like facility which is particularly useful for sysadmins
<jcastro> jrwren_, also, there are descriptions in the PDF on the wiki page with more information on the session.
<jono> and WIOS means Women In Open Source
<sebsebseb> sks: yes that's  fine, also #ubuntu is for support
<jono> <jbicha> QUESTION: is Canonical still losing money? if they are, do you have an estimate for when they'll break even?
<jono> Canonical is still working towards profitability, and we are making great strides in that direction, as for timescales, I don't really have any informationI can provide
<jono> <MenZa> QUESTION: What is the average airspeed velocity of a laden European swallow?
<jono> erm, next question...
<jono> <jaytheblogger> jono: QUESTION : I'm interested in packaging a new flavor of linux for hardcore gamers and game developers.  as a newbie, what are my chances, and how should I go t about it?
<jono> sounds awesome!
<jono> there are lots of docs online about creating derivatives
<jono> I would recommend you contact the Ubuntu Studio, Kubuntu or Xubuntu folks to ask them for some pointers
<jono> <zakaria> QUESTION: I'm a small time sysadmin. Sometime I make a script collection to install and configure server. What is the best way to share those script with another Ubunteros? Is there a place for this?
<jono> I am not aware of a standard place myself, but you may want to post to the ubuntu-server mailing list and ask :)
<jono> <yos> QUESTION: what does packaging involve ?
<jono> in a nutshell, packaging involves taking a piece of software that has been released in source code form, adding some additional files that specify how the package works and generating a package that works using the Debian packaging system
<jono> the way most packagers get involved is by adding a package to the sponsorship queue - this is where you create a package and an existing ubuntu developers offers input and upload it on your behalf if it is of suitable quality
<jono> if you want more help on this, join #ubuntu-motu on Freenode
<jono> or talk to dholbach - he can help :)
<jono> <X3MBoy> QUESTION: Is the IRC classroom used in other communities or is an Ubuntu community invention???
<jono> we were the first to come up with an open week, and I havent seen many other communities do it :)
<jono> sorry folks, I have a phone call, jcastro can you continue for a moment
<jcastro> QUESTION: so does one have to be a coder to package ?
<jcastro> Not really
<jcastro> though for more advanced things it helps if you know how to apply and test patches
<jcastro> I expect a review of your package won't go far if you don't know how to do things like that
<jcastro> however there are other tasks in packaging you can do without that
<jcastro> that's a great question for daniel and james during the thursday sessions on becoming an ubuntu developer
<jcastro> QUESTION: Does Ubuntu have automated testing for QA? How about collaborations with vendors to ensure that the hardware works reliably across upgrades?
<jcastro> I can't answer this, but there will be QA sessions throughout the week
<jcastro> QUESTION: Why did we make the switch to empathy/telepathy so soon?
<jcastro> there is a session on the entire telepathy stack on Friday
<jcastro> but the short answe there is audio/video support, and upstream collaboration
<jcastro> QUESTION: When will GNOME utility to configure the pop-up messages? Why in the 9.10 release messages that pop up one position lower than the message sound?
<jcastro> as far as I know this is a design decision and the notifications are not designed to be configurable
<jono> ok backl
<jono> back
<jono> just finding my place
<jcastro> Ok, please reask your question in -chat if I missed it
<jcastro> and remember to preface your question with QUESTION: so we don't miss it!
<jono> ok
<jono> sorry about that folks
<jono> it appears some people don't know about Open Week
<jono> :)
<jono> <rrnwexec> QUESTION: How would you rate the health of the Ubuntu community as compared with other distro's?
<jono> I think we are in really good shape - while there are always things we need to fix and improve, there is a great sense of morale in the community, we are seeing regular growth, and I think everyone is hugely proud of the Karmic release
<jono> <mugginz> QUESTION: Is there a possablility of Samba being shipped in a functional state by default?  Packages installed, etc.
<jono> not sure, that is a question for #ubuntu-server methinks
<jono> <mhall119|work> QUESTION: the docs on creating derivative distros is outdates with the new GDM and XSplash, when will they be updated?
<jono> I haven't reviewed the docs recently, so I am not sure
<jono> <joaopinto> QUESTION: Audio is clearly the worse area on Ubuntu 9.10, judging from a support request perspective, is there a plan on which the community can participate ? Bug reporting is clearly not sufficient
<jono> I wouldn't necessarily say it is the worst area, but it could do with some love - if people want to help, the best thing to do is to understand our audio infrastructure and join us as a developer, helping to fix bugs and ensure that audio is rocking in ubuntu
<jono> we are also keen to have bug reports on audio and have folks join our testing community to build stronger tests for our audio sub-system
<jono> <zakaria> QUESTION: When 9.10.1 released?
<jono> I am not seeing anything on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LucidReleaseSchedule yet, so I am not quite sure
<jono> a date may not have been set yet
<jono> <jbicha> QUESTION: what's your favorite Karmic feature?
<jono> I love the fact that we ship Empathy and its audio/video/screensharing support
<jono> <honza> QUESTION: What is the preferred programming language for developing applications for Ubuntu?
<jono> for creating new apps, we often recommend Python - there is an awesome tool called Quickly which helps you get up and running quickly - it creates an example applications and eases how you write code, create user interfaces, commit to bazaar and generate packages
<jono> see wiki.ubuntu.com/Quickly for details
<jono> I have written a few apps with it - it is awesome
<jono> <Mindfulgeek> QUESTION: Do you recommend upgrading or a clean install?
<jono> upgrade works great for me :)
<jono> <bigbrovar> QUESTION: There is a sense among kubuntu users that not enough is been done to being it on per with ubuntu in area of features and stability what is your take on this.
<jono> Kubuntu is an awesome community distribution - Canonical hires the always wonderful Riddell to work on Kubuntu, and much of the underlying foundation of Ubuntu also applies to Kubuntu too, but it sounds like there may be a resourcing issue in not having enough hands on deck in the community to work on Kubuntu
<jono> I would recommend that the Kubuntu community works together to build outreach to get more developers involved if there is a feeling that there are not enough hands on deck
<jono> maybe we should have a Kubuntu Developer Week?
<jono> our developer weekend
<jono> with IRC sessions about packaging KDE for Kubuntu?
<jono> <mhall119|work> QUESTION: jono, how are the book sales going?  Is your publisher still happy with making it available for download?
<jono> (mhall119|work is referring to my recent book on building community called The Art of Community which is available to buy but also available for free download at http://www.artofcommunityonline.org/get/)
<jono> the book seems to be doing well, I am just really happy with the ratings on amazon.com - I am not sure about book sales globally, but it seems to be doing well, and O'Reilly are happy that it is available to download - in fact, book sales went *up* when I made it available for download :-)
<jono> <hardyl> QUESTION: How will the "ship-it" program change?
<jono> see http://blog.canonical.com/?p=264 for details
<jono> ok folks, one more
<jono> <shadeslayer> QUESTION:Why is it that KDE does not get as much attention as GNOME does,for eg : www.ubuntu.com looks really professional,while www.kubuntu.org looks haphazard
<jono> GNOME is the chosen desktop for Ubuntu, and KDE is the chosen desktop for Kubuntu
<jono> Ubuntu is the primary distribution that Canonical funds, and hence ubuntu.com includes much of the information there - Kubuntu is an awesome community developed distribution
<jono> I think kubuntu.org looks awesome, and the Kubuntu community have done a wonderful job producing such a fantastic distro and the website and brand around it
<jono> if you feel it could improved, feel free to get in touch with Riddell and I am sure he would welcome the help :-)
<jono> ok folks, my time is up, thanks so much for coming to this opening session and I look forward to the rest of the week!
<jono> have a great week!
<jcastro> ok thanks jono
<jcastro> up next is going to be MagicFab
<jcastro> MagicFab, introduce yourself and take it away!
<MagicFab> Hi all!
<MagicFab> Sorry I am a bit late. That's my trademark :)
<jcastro> you're actually 2 minutes early!
<MagicFab> I suppose questions will be filteredthrough -chat as last time ?
<jcastro> yep
<jcastro> just paste them in here and answer
<MagicFab> k
<MagicFab> So, hi again, thanks to all for showing up - lots of people! Fabian Rodriguez here. I work at Canonical's Global Support Services center in Montreal, Canada as a senior support analyst and technical trainer for support & server stuff since November 2006 - so 3 years now!. I am mostly interested in free technologies advocacy (including formats, content, licencing) & training for new users, with an emphasis on security.
<MagicFab> You can read more about me here:
<MagicFab> http://launchpad.net/~magicfab and http://wiki.ubuntu.com/FabianRodriguez
<MagicFab> of course I love sharing so I also have these for you all:
<MagicFab> http://identi.ca/magicfab
<MagicFab> http://delicious.com/magicfab
<MagicFab> I hope I get some very hard questions today :)
<MagicFab> jcastro, is anyone pasting the questions or should I ?
<jcastro> you should. :D
<MagicFab> I am very interested in the cultural notion that "the computer guy" is always sucked into supporting family & friends for free, with high expectations. I want to beat that and help you convince people that they can handle Ubuntu by themselves. Heck, my parents do!
<MagicFab> ok tx
<MagicFab> Empower your new Ubuntu converts or prospects to become autonomous and be part of the community (or not!) with some technical support power tricks and key, chosen URLs that will help quickly understand Ubuntu and free software.
<MagicFab> Empower your new Ubuntu converts or prospects to become autonomous and be part of the community (or not!) with some technical support power tricks and key, chosen URLs that will help quickly understand Ubuntu and free software.
<MagicFab> sorry ;)
<MagicFab> With that in mmind, I'll take quesitons and try to show some of my stuff along the way.
 * MagicFab checks questions
<MagicFab> Question : We heard that Teacher (Guru) arrives, when the Student (neighbour) is ready (or want it)
<MagicFab> scratch that, not sure what the question is.
<MagicFab> next...
<MagicFab> QUESTION: is there value in stopping being the Windows go-to guy?
<MagicFab> So yes, the value is in all the time you gain :) Go outside, meet other people..
<akgraner> <IdleOne> QUESTION: My father showed some interrest in linux just recently. I have been trying to decide if I should install a dual boot system for him or just go with Ubuntu and let him dive in head first. what do you think would be best?
<MagicFab> I remember being the Windows power user... it wears you a lot. It's much more fullfiling to help people help themselves.
<MagicFab> akgraner, tx.
<MagicFab> IdleOne, I'd say go slowly. Dual boot, and default to Windows, leaving 20 seconds to choose in GRUB. That way it's there, available, and those 20 seconds beg the question: "why am I using Windows today? Should I ? ".
<MagicFab> When advocating Ubuntu or *any* free software, you'll notice it's much easier to **listen** and answers questions than to **propose** and impose information.
<MagicFab> Let him choose!
<MagicFab> Next ?
<akgraner> <gnomeye> QUESTION: How can you convince users to use OpenOffice, and not M$ Office 2007 / or to use pidgin/empathy instead of Windows Live Messenger etc.?
<MagicFab> You don't convince them. You use it everyday. You share your experience and good things / gains in time etc in your Facebook/ Twitter/Identica...
<MagicFab> Lead by example.
<MagicFab> This is similar to:
<MagicFab> How do you recommend overcoming the "Oh, it's not Windows" mentality?
<MagicFab> You don't! Don't be "the annoying Ubuntu guy/girl".
<MagicFab> Just DO IT. And every now and then, people will notice and ask questions by themselves.
<MagicFab> Remember, when someone asks you "what did you do this weekend" you can also say "well, I spent time with family, not rebuilding my Windows setup".
<MagicFab> build on your positive experiences, and share that as much as you can.
<MagicFab> I use Facebook *A lot* for that.
<MagicFab> :)
<MagicFab> next ?
<akgraner> <rrnwexec> QUESTION: How would you counter the tendency of friends/neighbours to compare Ubuntu to Windows?
<MagicFab> That's a good question. You can't compare it. Windows is an OS, period. Ubuntu is a whole ecosystem of things: a product, but also a project AND a huge community.
<MagicFab> PLUS thousands of free apps. ALL FREE. You can build your home server or your enterprise infrastrutcure from ground up for $0000
<MagicFab> How can you compare that ? you can't. But if someone insists, I would always provide "homwork".
<MagicFab> Here's this simple rule: don't put the weight on you to explain things.
<MagicFab> Don't underestimate people's ability to understand. Show them media coverage, informative sites.
<MagicFab> One that I love is http://getgnulinux.org ! That's my #1 advocacy tool.
<MagicFab> I guess it's easier to ask people what they need, and then "become availabel" but
<MagicFab> I MUST INSIST!!! Don't become the annoying Ubuntu person.
<MagicFab> Let them come to you.
<MagicFab> next ?
<akgraner> <hRedBeard> QUESTION: When introducing a user to Ubuntu, how do you overcome the stigma associated with the word "Free".
<MagicFab> What stigma ? Everyone loves free. I actually seldom mention the Freedom component of Ubuntu. To me it's a natural thing that enables Ubuntu and other free software.
<MagicFab> In fact people will ask "how is all of this possible!!" (read above "how can you compare this") and then you can say "because many people value Freedom".
<MagicFab> I avoid the political/ philosophical discussion, because, well, the link I gave above provide plenty of that.
<MagicFab> ** FOCUS ** on becoming avaiulable to refer to other resources. For example the LoCo Team in your area...
<MagicFab> It's very tempting to become the Ubuntu Star of your city/place/school/workplace.. :)
<MagicFab> But I assure you, that only scales so much :D
<MagicFab> I read on the chat channel: if anyone so much as starts arguing "this can't be, how do you make money" and you don't know the answer... politely dismiss it, "I don't know! but it wokrs for me sinc...."
<MagicFab> that;'s a valid answer too.
<MagicFab> And honestly I focus on people that are really interested.
<MagicFab> I'll tell you this anecdote. I worked at a BIG retailer in a calling center. We had 3 minutes to close a phone sale. Then the system hung up and passed the next call.
<MagicFab> If anyones' not receptive to Free software/Ubuntu in a few minutes, don't worry. Plenty are and waiting for your input.
<MagicFab> And in fact people become more curious or inquisitive when you *listen* instead of *talking* all the time.
<MagicFab> I have to give credit to my wife for that simple for HUGE tip which appolies to many other things in life :D
<MagicFab> A few choise links will help anyone advoctaing Ubuntu. But I am surprised almost no one of the advocates I know refer to official documentation or build on it.
<MagicFab> https://help.ubuntu.com/ comes to mind! If you haven't looked at it, you should.
<akgraner> <dscassel> QUESTION: You convince a non-technical friend to install Ubuntu and suspend and wifi don't work. Where do we go from here?  Can we still be friends?
<MagicFab> dscassel, you NEVER convince anyone of anything. They BEG you to do it.
<MagicFab> That being said, you NEVER install Ubuntu without checking with a Live CD first. Ever.
<MagicFab> Hardware is unsupported ? Tough luck. Next "customer' !
<akgraner> <rrnwexec> QUESTION: Do you sense that a significant part of the Ubuntu community is still trying to "sell fish" rather that "teaching people how to fish" when it comes to support?
<MagicFab> You need to serialize your advocacy. Focus, focus, focus. Build your nieghbor's knowledge, train other "Gurus".
<MagicFab> What is a Guru ?  akgraner and others loved this phrase I often use: "Everyone's someone else's guru"
<MagicFab> Last week I gave this notion some thought
<MagicFab> And many people complained at the Release party that it was the only time we met face to fcae.. .every 6 months!!!
<MagicFab> So I started the Ubuntu Hour: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Hour
<MagicFab> Sometimes we want to seek helping people that know nothing about Ubuntu when the reality is other that know just a bit more than nothing are our neighbors and can't go to the next step!
<MagicFab> To you I say: start some simple, local. Heck, it's even eco=friendly! Make yourself available, but set limits.
<MagicFab> Give homework, and point to official docs & resources., build on them. See the pattern ?
<akgraner>  <openweek8_> Question: when I do an install for a new user a couple of the first questions are regarding audio and video messaging and iPods. While they do sort of work in Ubuntu, when will they really compete with Windows. That is where we lose a lot of newbies.
<MagicFab> hRedBeard asks:  QUESTION: Speaking of Support, again, in my experences, new users get very uneasy about having no support line to call.  Yes, there's free support, but typically they're looking for "who can I call for free because I bought the software" sort of support.  Providing neighborly support is fine, but many people seem to want someone at 3AM when something happens.  How do you recommend describing support options?
<MagicFab> ok, in order.
<MagicFab> Audio & video messaging: We're almost there, check Piding &*Empathy if youcare for freedom. If you don't, I hear Skype just works.
<MagicFab> You care so much about Ipods you won't use Ubuntu ? Sorry, I've personally have given up on anyone that has any attachment to Apple products.
<MagicFab> If that sound harsh, well, I am not sorry. *Choose your battles*
<MagicFab> Again, there's people out there without Ipods, can you believe that ? And their life is just fine! I focus on those.
<MagicFab> hRedBeard asked:  QUESTION: Speaking of Support, again, in my experences, new users get very uneasy about having no support line to call.  Yes, there's free support, but typically they're looking for "who can I call for free because I bought the software" sort of support.  Providing neighborly support is fine, but many people seem to want someone at 3AM when something happens.  How do you recommend describing support options?
<MagicFab> Commercial support is UNLIMITED and starts very cheap!!! Have you seen shop.canonical.com lately ?
<MagicFab> Here: http://shop.canonical.com/index.php?cPath=31_32
<MagicFab> Prices ?
<MagicFab> Starting at 54.99 $ /yr, unlimited... If that's not affordable, I don't know what is.
<MagicFab> Remember, you DONT NEED TO PAY to use Ubuntu at any time or at any level.
<akgraner> Solarion> QUESTION: how do you *stop* being "The annoying linux zealot"?
<MagicFab> 3AM means "24x7" support.
<MagicFab> That price is different! And believe me, when people notice the differene most will prefer waiting.
<MagicFab> Solarion, that's very easy. You literally *shut up*  when people talk about LInux / ubuntu etc.
<MagicFab> Solarion, yes, even at BestBuy, RadioShack, etc. You DONT focus on those. Remember, you make yourself aailable.
<MagicFab> If you really, really can't shut up you can say something like "hey did you know there's an Ubuntu user group here ? if you have any questions I can help *when I am not busy* ".. etc.
<MagicFab> set yourself to help people using 2 HARD, STRICT RULES:
<MagicFab> 1) You will only help for free if they ask in public (forums, chat, etc) so others can benefit
<MagicFab> 2) You will only do so when you can
<MagicFab> *NEVER* paint yourself in that "unlimited, 24x7, I-will-do-your-laundry-if-you-use-Ubuntu".
<MagicFab> Otherwise just as the "free stigma"... they will probably just think  you need friends or something. I 've been told that :)
<akgraner>  <hRedBeard> QUESTION: How do you explain the idea behind FOSS/Ubuntu/GPL without sounding like a "free for all hippie" <----I've been called that, believe it or not :]
<MagicFab> hRedBeard, again, YOU DON'T! just refer to public websites. Wikipedia helps a lot believe it or not.
<MagicFab> You can for exmaple mention  Google and yahoo use Linux in all their infrastructure.
<MagicFab> Surely they built a valid business on it, iddn't they ? Yes, there are hippies in every revolution. I believe this is one. But if someons doesn't, I can't care less. I go back to my previously mentioned rule. NEEEEEEEEEXT ! And others will be more interested in chatting about that.
<MagicFab> pmatulis, asks: QUESTION: On virtualization.  What would you recommend to a user who still needs Windows around?  VMWare, Virtualbox, KVM, or some other?  I hear KVM is pretty hot.
<MagicFab> pmatulis, 100% Virtual Box.
<akgraner>  QUESTION:  How do you make it clear to someone that  Ubuntu isn't only an operating system,  it's a community, and for that matter explain to them about software freedoms and why it matters.  Yes someone who thinks an OS isn't special at all,  and that it's for running the hardware and software and that's it.
<MagicFab> KVM is cool but is for a different audience. If you want to klnow why, see help.ubuntu.com, search for "VortualBox" and "KVM" separately. If you don't find the answer there, come back to me at http://webchat.freenode.net/?randomnick=1&channels=ubuntu-qc&prompt=1 I am on all weekedays.
<MagicFab> See ? I just did it!! Now pmatulis will probably search, while remaining my friend. Or he will actually insist and I will answer right away. But I gave him my opinion without patronizing "ohhhhhhh I know a lot!!! Let me set a weekend and we can taaaaaaalk!!!"
<MagicFab> oh and BTW my answer was "VirtualBox - if you need USB virtualization, use the non-free edition" :)
<MagicFab> I am surprised I see many non-technical questions. So I feel this is now a social, rather than technical problem (getting someone into Ubuntu) :)
<MagicFab> One important thing, many new users or future possible users are intimidated by the "community"
<MagicFab> they see it as some private club. It's easy to forget it's not when you've been here for some time!!
<MagicFab> Helpful phrases like "you know, there is a strong worldwide community of Ubuntu users. We all go by the CoC...". Know you local team website.
<MagicFab> That helps.
<MagicFab> That leads to introducing the Local Community teams. When someone calls Canonical and they speak another language, for example, most of the time they can handle very basic English. Enough to show them https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoTeamList
<MagicFab> IN any other business I'd probably get fired!!
<MagicFab> I see a lot of "how do I convince" ? ... I forgot to tell... It depends on everyone. This is very personal, know what your story is. I explain why it's better for me and my wife who is a 1stgrade t4eacher. How I used to be a Windows power user. How I totally changed my career at age 33 and now this is where I am at.
<MagicFab> If you have a similar story, share that! People love stories.
<MagicFab> But leave the "you should install it" alone :)
<akgraner> <ubunfan> QUESTION: how do you suggest we impart knowledge into those comming from a system such as windows where they know the basics of staying safe there e.g. don't click on files with two file extensions, for ubuntu not running scripts any old person's posted as root ?
<MagicFab> ubunfan, in what context ? I wouldn't know. My context is Quebec francophone, I come from Colombia, speak 3 languages and most my friends and family share my values.
<MagicFab> I can scare the h* out of them with security stuff. Bottom line, no one can protect you from yourself, so there'not much to teach.
<akgraner> <ubunfan> MagicFab: as in scripts containg commands to remove / and such how do you provent users from running them
<MagicFab> The point I am making is, if you share values with people you are talking to, that discussion shouldn't happen. If you need to have that discussion, again, either say "I don't know" and document / research and come back or point to existing docs and articles.
<MagicFab> But most of all, ask to get specific, precise questions. Otherwise it becomes FUD, or it's a troll, in my opinion.
<akgraner> <dscassel> Question: You mention LoCos a lot, but some LoCos are more useful than others.  I don't want to put down the ubuntu-ca folks, but there's not a lot of LoCo presence in Southern Ontario.  How can we build that community?
<MagicFab> ubunfan, you can't prevent people from doing that. If you have people like that around you, I am sorry but I'd let them go. They are  not stupid! They will eventually find out about other options. And grow into them. and be more aware in secuirty... maybe start using Firefox in Windows and who knows, in a few months something else
<MagicFab> Flashblock/Noscript extensions come to mind but honestly there's not much you can do for those serial-clickers.
<MagicFab> dscassel, start small. http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Hour comes to mind. I mean REALLY small.
<MagicFab> get together with ONE person, and advertise that./
<MagicFab> Nothing stops you from having several locos in one place.
<MagicFab> we're almost out of time but I'll take some older questions:
<MagicFab> <rrnwexec> QUESTION: Do you sense that a significant part of the Ubuntu community is still trying to "sell fish" rather that "teaching people how to fish" when it comes to support?
<MagicFab> rrittenhouse, yes, definitely. That's a known bad habit, perhaps the thoughest to break.
<akgraner> <sebsebseb> QUESTION:   How do you get someone to use  the  Ubuntu install that is available to them instead of Windows on the same computer,  when  they think OS's aren't special and for just running hardware and software,  and probably won't even read about Ubuntu even if the article is from a news source that they like such as the BBC.
<MagicFab> I dont'say much to help others ! I ask them to join us on IRC, on the website. I remain available. I explain I don't like the "anti-Microsoft" tone out there, I remain ethical. I go by the CoC  (really !) - but I ask them to read a bit and *THEN* come back to me! They feel like I trust them to understand. And to my amazement, they do!
<MagicFab> sebsebseb, again, wrong audience. I'd say next! Choose your battles. I've seen people like that I literally vut any ties with and few months later they come back to me... don't waste your time!
<MagicFab> And the Ubuntu install is like step #20 in Ubuntu advocacy! Live CD is way before that and also making sure all hardware works..
<MagicFab> specially that expensive multifunction printer!!!
<jcastro> ok time!
<akgraner> Alrighty time for next Session...:-)
<MagicFab> They will hate you if I give you the magical recipe and their system then doesn't work :)
<MagicFab> Thanks to all who put up with this.
<jcastro> tyche, ok, introduce yourself, your session, and take it away!
<MagicFab> If anyone wants to follow up... join me on #ubuntu-qc all weekdays day time EST :)
<tyche> Hi
<tyche> My name is Craig Eddy - known as Tyche in IRC and in the Ubuntu community - and I am an editor for the UWN.  And in the past few weeks people have asked me various questions about the Ubuntu Weekly Newsletter.
<tyche> Some of them have been of the nature of, "I told you about it in channel, why can't you put it in the UWN?"
<tyche> Others have been, "can I contribute to the UWN?"  And there have been others.
<tyche> I'd like to address some of the questions by explaining the fondation of the Newsletter, and how it gets put together.  Along the way I'll be describing some of what actually goes on in the process.
<tyche> As I go through this presentation questions may arise.  Please, open a text editor (not a word processor) and type your questions in there.  Preceed your question with the word QUESTION to gain a moderator's attention.  At the end of the presentations, you can then copy them into #ubuntu-classroom-chat, and I'll do my best to answer them.
<tyche> This presentation will be repeated on my blog, http://tycheent.wordpress.com/, which is also attached to the Planet Ubuntu.  So if I couldn't get to your answer in channel feel free to comment there and I'll try to answer it.
<tyche> The UWN is, and has been from the beginning, a way of letting the community know what's going on.  Sometimes within the community as a whole.  Sometimes as noting what's being said about Ubuntu from the outside.
<tyche> The first issue of the UWN came out in June of 2006, and a basic structure to the Newsletter.  General Community News, a section called "Ubuntu" that gave release information, and an In The Press section.
<tyche> But, along with that structure were the beginnings of how to go about putting the Newsletter together.  And thus was born journalism in an on-line Newsletter.
<tyche> Structure is important.  And between Issue #1 and Issue #166 the structure has changed (hopefully for the better) many times.
<tyche> Each change in the structure involved "executive decisions", and discussion with others about whether they were worthwhile and how to go about adding them.
<tyche> Now, we have the General Community News, that has incorporated the Ubuntu section.  The Ubuntu Stats, that give figures on Bugs, Translations and, recently added, Ubuntu Brainstorm Top 5 for the week.
<tyche> We also have LoCo News, that celebrates upcoming and just past events.  Also Launchpad News that tells of changes to our all important Launchpad server and sites.
<tyche> We have the Ubuntu Forms News that adds information on Tutorials and other ongoing information.  We have The Planet that lets people know what other things of interest are happening with individuals.
<tyche> In The Press is still there, but the format has changed over time to provide a summary or "teaser" to the article to which it is linked.
<tyche> In The Blogosphere outlines what other individual's opinions of Ubuntu are.  And In Other News covers information that doesn't fit the preceeding two categories.
<tyche> We also have a Meeting Summaries section that outlines what has happened in groups in the past month.  Information taken from that submitted by the various Teams and Councils.
<tyche> And then, there's the two that are the most tedious to do:  Upcoming Meetings and Events, and Updates and Security.  The first gives the information on meetings in the #ubuntu-meetings channel on irc.freenode.net.  The second lists all the posted updates - both those that are security updates and those that are applied to individual releases.
<tyche> Also recently added is the Glossary of Terms where some of thos nasty little acronyms that the average person might not know are defined.
<tyche> Also added to the structure of the UWN are the Credits, so you know who to blame for what's in any particular issue.  Hee hee.
<tyche> Structure is all very well.  But just like having a bunch of boards organized into a house doesn't make it a lived-in home, so this structure needs something else to actually BE the UWN.
<tyche> It's traditionally been the job of the newest recruit to visit the many links for the Security and Updates section and do the dull, tedious work of gathering that information.  And when a Beta is released, that can be a daunting task.  As an example, when Karmic Koala Beta was released there were 244 updates between the release date and the date of the UWN.
<tyche> Fortunately, that task, that used to be done manually, has now been automated with a script (actually a series of scripts, one for each sub-section of the Security and Updates section.
<tyche> Likewise, the Upcoming Meetings section, originally gathered from a calendar within the Fridge, was much more difficult to deal with than its more recent Google calendar, both in gathering information and in posting it.
<tyche> With the original calendar, the "repeating events" had to be manually posted to the Fridge.  With the Google calendar, those repeating events are taken care of with one posting.  Also, there are shortcuts that can be put in so that half the information can just be copied and pasted from the calendar to the UWN.
<tyche> Other sections, like the Forums News and the Brainstorm Stats are entered directly by specialized contributors (and we, who constitute the core group in the UWN REALLY appreciate their efforts and help).
<tyche> One of our editors, and our Chief Editor, have RSS feeds from various sources from which the links for In The Press, In The Blogosphere and In Other News are gathered.  Likewise, General Community News, LoCo News, Launchpad News, and The Planet are gathered from links within the Ubuntu community.
<tyche> And now the killer piece of information that causes the chaos of creating the UWN.  ALL of that is left as long as possible to make the information we put in the UWN as up-to-date as possible.
<tyche> When one has three to six people all trying to edit one page at the same time things get interesting.  In channel, one can see people saying things like, "Well, when SOMEONE finally lets me in, I'll dump my section in.  Hee hee"
<tyche> Good natured teasing, like that, helps us keep sane.  Some elements can be put in early, like the Forums (I've yet to tangle with Isabelle Duchatelle as she does her part), and the Security and Updates (Liraz Siri, partly due to the difference in time zones, always manages to get his section in before the chaos starts).
<tyche> But that still leaves a bunch of sections to go in, all at the same time.  The way we manage to do it is to compose our sections in text files (with all the wiki formatting) so that all we have to do is cut and paste to actually dump it in the page.
<tyche> A template was developed, to keep everyone on the "same page" for formatting.  That way, we can reduce the number of camelcases (wiki hot links, like LoCo) that we have to go and change in the actual wiki page.
<tyche> But that still leaves us with situations where 2 or 3 people are trying to edit the page at the same time (thank goodness for locks).  And, on top of that, we're correcting eachother's spelling and grammer, and making decisions on whether or not to dump a particular link.
<tyche> If we were trying to edit directly into the page, rather than the cut-and-paste method we use, the chaos would be worse.  As it is, the chatter in channel can get "interesting".  And all this while trying to beat a deadline to get the issue out.
<tyche> In addition, the chaos of the channel serves another two purposes.  The humor we insert helps to relieve the tensions of trying to beat the deadline.  And the somewhat social aspect of the channel allows us to interact, perhaps to change a style or correct a formatting "on-the-fly".
<tyche> But even more important, it allows us to proof-read eachother's work to make the issue as good as we can get it.  Mistakes DO get through, but we honestly try to keep them to a minimum.
<tyche> So, for 2 or 3 hours on a Sunday, the editors and contributors go through organized chaos to put something out that will inform and entertain you readers.
<tyche> Contributions are essential to the UWN.  Without them the issues would be bland rehashing of information that's already available to the community.
<tyche> New contributions - those outside our normal sources for information - need to follow the same structure that is set up for all the rest of the summaries.  There has to be a link that we can point to, so that readers can find out more information or even check to see if we actually summarized it properly.
<tyche> This reliance on hard links to put in each issue is important to us, as it keeps us honest.  You may notice that we don't editorialize in the UWN.  We're trying very hard to NOT offer our opinion, but just state the facts as we find them.  This is the essence of journalism as it pertains to the UWN, and the one place where YOU can help us.
<tyche> If you have information that you want to share with the community, GREAT!  But . . . we need it to be YOUR information, not our "opinion" of what you may have said in channel or in an email.  We need that hard link to point to.  This seems to be the hardest thing for me to get people to understand about the UWN.
<tyche> Also, it helps if the information you supply, on a blog link or where ever, gives us enough information so that we CAN summarize it in an intelligent fashion.  Remember, we can't know all the information YOU know about a subject.  If you like, you can run your ideas by me, and I'll happily help you build something that will be interesting and informative, from which we can draw our summary.
<tyche> Is it a new program?  What does it do?  How does it differ from other, similar programs?
<tyche> Is it an event?  Where will it be held?  What is the focus of the event?  What is the target audience?  Who is helping out with the event?  What, if any, companies or organizations are involved?
<tyche> One other point:  there is a difference between named contributors (people named in the Credits section) and editors of the UWN.  It's not a prestige thing, believe it or not.  It's based on ability.  New "named" contributors are given a specific task to complete.  They may also do some proofing, but primarily they are set to complete one particular task at a time.
<tyche> As they grow into working on the UWN, those tasks change to more complex tasks until they are able to handle anything that the UWN may throw at them.  At that point, they become editors.  Editors are the "clean-up hitters", the ones fill in for others that happen to be unavailable in any particular week.
<tyche> They also have more say in the editing of the UWN, based on their experience, and their viewpoint is valuable.  We encourage people to work their way through the tasks, so they CAN help out.  The more eyes and hands we have, the better the UWN runs, and the more fun with it we can have.
<tyche> Despite all that I've just told you, the Ubuntu Weekly Newsletter isn't OUR newsletter.  It's YOUR'S.  The information that makes up the bulk of the newsletter comes from  you.  Every entry in the Upcoming Meetings and Events is something that YOU have added to the Fridge calendar.  All the Meeting Summaries, all the Security and Updates, and much more, come from YOU.
<tyche> Our purpose is to document them in a way that reaches beyond the range of your particular circles of influence.  Our purpose is to celebrate the advances you make, the achievements you accomplish, and yes even the setbacks you experience.  And for that we need your help.
<tyche> There are procedures you can follow . . . oh, nothing difficult . . . that will make it easier for us and better for you.  Little things, like providing a link for the agenda of your meetings to the Fridge calendar, or making sure that security updates and release updates are documented where they need to be.
<tyche> Another way you can help is to make sure you write up whatever events, new programs, or etcetera in a blog article or some format that we can link to.  This way, what's reported is what YOU want known, and not some vague opinion.  We who edit the UWN have had to scramble on a few occasions to get such links, and people haven't understood why.  The "why" is simple.  It keeps US honest in our reporting, and presents the facts that YOU want
<tyche> reported.
<tyche> Casual, "one-off" contributions are always welcome.  You can let us know in the #ubuntu-news channel or in an email to the list - ubuntu-news-team@lists.ubuntu.com or mailto:ubuntu-news@lists.ubuntu.com .  Be sure to include a link to where the information actually is, so we can add it to the UWN.  By the way, feedback about the UWN can also be addressed through the same means.  We like constructive criticism (and, of course, we ALWAYS like to
<tyche> hear compliments.  Hee hee).
<tyche> Right now, we have a pretty good balance of people helping put the UWN together.  However, there are times when we do need more help.  If you are interested in being listed as a contributor (one that does the nuts and bolts, tedious and hectic, work of putting the UWN together, contact us in the #ubuntu-news channel.  We'll gladly talk to you about it.
<tyche> Now that I've blathered on for what seems like forever, here's your chance to ask questions that I may not have covered in the presentation.
<akgraner> <gotunandan> [QUESTION]: on what basis do you decide ubuntu news/blogs is relevant ?
<tyche> And I'd like to thank Amber (akgraner) in advance for fielding questions for me.
<tyche> gotunandan: Mostly, we look to see if it's Ubuntu related, and provides INFORMATION.  Information may be positive or negative, as long as it's not just "selling" or FUD.
<tyche> Next?
<akgraner> <Rohirrim> [QUESTION]: Does the newsletter have a mailing list or is it just RSS feed?
<tyche> Rohirrim: That's a good question for which I don't have a good answer.  I BELIEVE it is set up on a mailing list.  I'm going to suggest that you ask that question in the -news channel.
<tyche> Next?
<akgraner> <TeslaUa> [QUESTION]: how about translations into other languages?
<tyche> TeslaUa: We're always looking for people or groups to translate the newsletter.  We have some who do and/or take information from the newsletter to add to their own.  But the core group doesn't have any translators in it.
<tyche> Next?
<akgraner> <openweek0_> [QUESTION]: Have you considered asking people to write a piece for you to link to? If you want to know about a certain issue I'm sure some people would knock up a reasonable piece for you.
<tyche> We're getting some GOOD questions, here.  I'm sure my splurb only touched on the highlights.
<tyche> openweek0: We've had people come to us and say "hey, how about . . ." then worked with them to develop a web page we could link to, so we could add their article to the UWN.  There have also been times when we've requested information from people.  But, I repeat, we rely on hard links - something someone else has  written up, not our opinion.
<tyche> Next?
<akgraner> <gotunandan> [Question]: i missed the beginning of the session, is there a specific place, irc channel, mailing list where one can submit info to be included in UWN
<tyche> gotunandan: I'm not ignoring you.  I'm having to go back through my splurb to find the actual links that I put up.  Just a sec.
<tyche> gotunandan: Tell you what, this entire presentation (possibly minus the questions) will be on my blog site, and the information will be in there.  So as not to hold things up, I'll refer you to http://tycheent.wordpress.com/
<tyche> It'll be on there a little after this session ends.
<tyche> Next
<akgraner> <TeslaUa> [QUESTION]: i would like to know how non-english versions of UWN are made and how to contribute. thanks.
<tyche> TeslaUa: Non-English versions are done by the translators.  Some of them simply take portions of the UWN and add them to their own newsletter, and you'd have to ask them how to contribute to those.  Others translate the whole thing (a daunting task, from my opinion), in which case the contribution would have to be in the UWN, itself
<tyche> Next?
<akgraner> [QUESTION] applications will need to be added in order to to use the scripts?  where are they found? and how much technical experience does one need?
<tyche> BTW, when I post the splurb to the website, I'll try to do a better job of spell checking.  :-)
<tyche> I'm not sure I understand the question about adding applications in order to use the scripts.  If you mean the ones we use for Security and Updates, it's BeautifulSoup - a python module - and is in the repos.
<tyche> Next?
<akgraner> tyche  - speaking from the beginner point of view with UWN  - you and johnc4510 do an amazing job of mentoring
<tyche> BeautifulSoup is a module that is needed to use the Security and Updates scripts.  Since I didn't create the python scripts we use, I can't really tell you what it does.  The scripts were created by a previous Chief Editor (Thanks, boredandblogging).  I'm just a user.
<tyche> akgraner: We try.  He taught me a bunch (and is STILL teaching me a bunch).  But the real test comes down to a new contributor's willingness to learn.
<tyche> What else can I help people with?
<tyche> One thing I'll mention about the socialization aspects of the UWN.  It helps to keep us on the same page with changes, and to be able to interact with eachother - offering suggestions and making corrections.
<tyche> It's as much an important part of the UWN as the links we go to for information.
<akgraner> <effie-jayx> QUESTION: how does Planet Ubuntu interact with UWN?
<akgraner> I think tyche is having some lag issues...
<jcastro> let's give him a few minutes to reconnect
<akgraner> about 130sec it would seem..
<jcastro> ok so tyche is having lag problems
<jcastro> let's go ahead and take a 10 minute break
<jcastro> feel free to chat in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<jcastro> smoke if you got em!
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to Ubuntu Open Week! https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek || Session: Scratch your own itch, learn how to write your own app || All questions go in #ubuntu-classroom-chat ||
<jcastro> we'll begin in 5 minutes
<akgraner> hey all Next up is Rick Spencer
<rickspencer3> o/
<akgraner> his session is all about writing your own application
<akgraner> using Quickly
<rickspencer3> akgraner, shall I start?
<akgraner> take it away!
<rickspencer3> great
<rickspencer3> so I want to tell you that *anyone* can write an application that runs on Ubuntu
<rickspencer3> if you've ever used a paint programming and a word processor, then you can write a program
<rickspencer3> what I hope you get out of this session is confidence to get started, and a starting place
<rickspencer3> even Chemists! ;)
<rickspencer3> I want to tell you that writing applications is *easy* and it's *fun*
<rickspencer3> :)
<rickspencer3> let's start from the beginning though
<rickspencer3> you'll need to install a couple of things to follow along
<rickspencer3> if you put the following into a terminal, it will install what you need:
<rickspencer3> sudo apt-get install quickly python-desktopcouch-records
<rickspencer3> the key thing getting installed here is called "quickly"
<rickspencer3> While it's installing, I can provide some background
<rickspencer3> Quickly works with Karmic only, so if you haven't upgraded, I'm afraid you won't be able to follow along
<rickspencer3> What is Quickly?
<rickspencer3> well, it's a kind of "template" that created a starting point for an app, so you can just modify the app that is created
<rickspencer3> the template makes choices for you, so you don't have to go out and research what to use, just use quickly, and you'll have all the deciscions made for you
<rickspencer3> quickly also has some commands that make certain things easier, that used to be hard, especially making packages to share your application
<rickspencer3> so, any questions yet?
<akgraner> <Dig> QUESTION: is Quickly like Glade ? Differences ?
<rickspencer3> good question
<rickspencer3> Quickly *uses* Glade
<rickspencer3> Glade is the tool for modifying the UI for your quickly app, I will demonstrate that shortly
<rickspencer3> similarly, Python is the language that Quickly uses
<akgraner> <Chopinhauer> QUESTION: Isn't Glade obsolete? What about GtkBuilder?
<rickspencer3> akgraner, another good question
<rickspencer3> Glade is not obslete
<rickspencer3> GtkBuilder is a new way of writing code in Python for a GUI
<rickspencer3> essentially, Glade is able to produce the kind of XML that GtkBuilder expects
<rickspencer3> so Quickly uses GtkBuilder, and Glade uses GtkBuilder, so it all works great
<rickspencer3> so, we should probably start the demo, but I want to give some credit where credit is due
<rickspencer3> first, didrocks is the guy who wrote all the hard parts of Quickly, he did the hard work, so now we don't have any
<rickspencer3> eeejay, kenvandine, and others helped lots too
<rickspencer3> there's a chat room, #quickly, where you can go ask questions
<rickspencer3> so, let's get started with the demo
<rickspencer3> any questions first?
<rickspencer3> alrighty, let's go then
<rickspencer3> we are going to use quickly to create a little search utility
<rickspencer3> Get started by creating an application from the ubuntu-project template
<rickspencer3> I'm calling it "searchy"
<rickspencer3> Here's the command to create the application: $quickly create ubuntu-project searchy
<rickspencer3> This causes a bunch of info to be dumped to the command line, but ends with the application being run.
<rickspencer3> Note that it's called "Searchy", but otherwise, it's just a stock application.
<rickspencer3> you can click around, notice that there are menu items, and about box, etc...
<rickspencer3> so there, we've already create an app, now we just need to edit it to make it do what we want
<rickspencer3> note that Quickly is a command line tool, so you do use the command line to work with it, but the commands are very easy
<rickspencer3> If you've closed the application and want to run it again :
<rickspencer3> $cd searchy
<rickspencer3> $quickly run
<rickspencer3> let's edit the UI in Glade, but first, any questions?
<rickspencer3> ok, I see some questions, let me grab them
<rickspencer3> QUESTION: Does Quickly just do Python, or does it support compiled languages as well?
<rickspencer3> QUESTION: Will applications built in Quickly work with both Gnome and KDE? What about other distributions?
<rickspencer3> QUESTION:  What kind of applications should I NOT consider Quickly for?  Conversely what applications is Quickly well-suited for development of?
<rickspencer3> these are all releated, I think
<rickspencer3> so today, Quickly only supports a Ubuntu Gui application written in python with Gtk
<rickspencer3> however, we wrote Quickly to support other kinds of templates as well
<rickspencer3> I am working on some other templates, like one for making games, and one for making Gedit plugins
<rickspencer3> if someone wanted to do one for Kubuntu, that would be really great as well
<rickspencer3> so, let's edit the UI now
<rickspencer3> we should be in the "searchy" directory
<rickspencer3> so let's launch Glade
<rickspencer3> $quickly glade
<rickspencer3> it's important that you run Glade in this manner
<rickspencer3> if you try to run Glade by choosing it from the menus, and then opening the files it won't work
<rickspencer3> but if you do it with $quickly glade, it will open all of your UI files in the project, just like magic ;)
<rickspencer3> so ...
<rickspencer3> Under the Projects window, switch to SearchyWindow. This is the main window for your application.
<rickspencer3> Delete the image and the label (image1 and label1) to clear out space in the UI.
<rickspencer3> In the pallette, under Control and Display, click on the Text Entry control. Then click on the space where the label used to be.
<rickspencer3> the "pallette" is the list of widgets to the left of Glade
<rickspencer3> so it's kind of like a paint programming using the fill tool
<rickspencer3> you pick the widget you want, then you "fill" in the space in your Window
<rickspencer3> Also, turn off the size request for the window.
<rickspencer3> Do this by selecting searchy_window in the inspector.
<rickspencer3> Then click on the Common tab, and unselect Width Request and Height Request checkboxes.
<rickspencer3> we're almost done editing the UI, but we need to do one thing
<rickspencer3> we want something to happen when users type into the textbox and click the Enter key on the keyboard
<rickspencer3> so we want to write some Python code to run when that happens
<rickspencer3> we do this by sending a "signal" to our code
<rickspencer3> In Glade, click on the text entry (entry1) to select it.
<rickspencer3> then in the window down in the bottom right ....
<rickspencer3> Click in the Hanlder column in the activate row, and type "do_search". Hit Enter.
<rickspencer3> Make sure that you save, or your changes won't show up when you run the app!
<rickspencer3> so after you save, you've edited your UI
<rickspencer3> before we write code to make something happen ...
<rickspencer3> any questions?
<rickspencer3> akgraner_ jcastro are there questions?
<akgraner_> <Dig> Question: Are there going to be 'Delegates' involved in passing data between front-end and back-end ???
<jcastro> QUESTION:What other templates are there other than Ubuntu-project ?
<rickspencer3> Dig, the data passing in Glade is not too good atm, so ...
<rickspencer3> probably just "no" is the simplest answer
<rickspencer3> but, your signal handler does know what widget fired the signal, so there are ways to pass data
<rickspencer3> for the other question, atm, there is only the ubuntu-project template, as I mentioned
<rickspencer3> we would love to see contributions for other templates
<rickspencer3> let's write a little code ...
<rickspencer3> Go back to the terminal and type: $quickly edit
<rickspencer3> This will open your editor (most likey Gedit) with all of the python files for your project
<rickspencer3> DANGER DANGER, don't dive in and start writing code
<rickspencer3> you need to set up Gedit a tiny bit first
<rickspencer3> Before you start, make sure your editor is set up for Python programming.
<rickspencer3> Python uses spaces and tabs very differently, and it can cause your program not to run, and can be very confusing if you don't set up Gedit properly.
<rickspencer3> do this in Gedit ..
<rickspencer3> Go to Edit -> Preferences
<rickspencer3> Go to Editor tab
<rickspencer3> Turn on Use spaces instead of tabs
<rickspencer3> Set Tab width to 4
<rickspencer3> This will set up Gedit to follow Python standards while coding
<rickspencer3> alright, now that Gedit is ready for Python code, let's write some
<rickspencer3> Click on the tab for "searchy".
<rickspencer3> "searchy" is the main python file for your application. It runs the code for the main window, and is the first file that gets run when you start your app.
<rickspencer3> notice that lots and lots of code has been generated for you
<rickspencer3> you just need to add and remove code as you wish to make your app work
<rickspencer3> remember "do_search"?
<rickspencer3> we want to create some code to respond to that signal from UI
<rickspencer3> but first, we need to tell searchy to import a couple of "libraries" that we will need
<rickspencer3> a library is just some code that comes with Ubuntu that we want to call into and use
<rickspencer3> Add urllib by adding "import urllib" at line 10
<rickspencer3> Add webbrowser by adding "import webbrowser" at line 11
<rickspencer3> to make it easier to follow , I put all the code here:
<rickspencer3> http://paste.ubuntu.com/262082/
<rickspencer3> so now
<rickspencer3> Then at line 82, hit enter a couple of times to add a new function at line 84.
<rickspencer3> here's what do_search looks like:
<rickspencer3>     def do_search(self, widget, daata=None):
<rickspencer3>         search_words = self.builder.get_object("entry1").get_text()
<rickspencer3>         q = urllib.urlencode({'q':search_words})
<rickspencer3>         url = "http://linuxsearch.org/?cof=FORID%3A9&cx=003883529982892832976%3At4dsysmshjs&"
<rickspencer3>         url += q
<rickspencer3>         url += "&sa=Search"
<rickspencer3>         webbrowser.open(url)
<rickspencer3> that's Python code I wrote that runs when the "do_search" signal is sent
<rickspencer3> Notice around line 86, the code uses "self.builder" to get a reference to the text entry that was added in Glade.
<rickspencer3> Where does self.builder come from?
<rickspencer3> Well, the ubuntu-project template sets up a relationship between .ui files generated by Glade, and Python *classes* that use those files.
<rickspencer3> you can see that do_search pulls out the text from text entry on line 86
<rickspencer3> q = urllib.urlencode({'q':search_words})
<rickspencer3> that uses the urllib library to build a bit of a URL, in the standard way for web browsers
<rickspencer3> line 88 - 90 build a url string
<rickspencer3> line 91 opens the web browser
<rickspencer3> so we're just telling Ubuntu "use the web browser to open the url that we built using the search terms from the edit field"
<rickspencer3> then you can add:
<rickspencer3> self.destroy()
<rickspencer3> this will make the application close itself
<rickspencer3> so that's all there is to creating searchy, we probably want to package it now, but first ...
<rickspencer3> questions?
<akgraner> <gQuigs> QUESTION: should daata be data?
<rickspencer3> ooops
<rickspencer3> yes, that is a typo
<akgraner> <Dig> QUESTION: I'm getting this error when i run the app ...
<akgraner> <Dig> quickly run
<akgraner> <Dig>   File "bin/searchy", line 85
<akgraner> <Dig>     def do_search(self, widget, data=None):
<akgraner> <Dig>                                           ^
<akgraner> <Dig> IndentationError: unindent does not match any outer indentation level
<rickspencer3> hmmm
<rickspencer3> here is what is causing this
<rickspencer3> in a nutshell ... Python is finicky about indentation
<rickspencer3> indention *means something* in Python
<rickspencer3> the ubuntu-project template uses the Python standard of 4 spaces per indentations level
<rickspencer3> so if you set up your setting properly, you should be able to fix up the indentation, and make it work
<akgraner> <Squideshi>  QUESTION: Are there any guides or tutorials on building new templates for Quickly?
<rickspencer3> yup!
<rickspencer3> didrocks has blogged about this
 * rickspencer3 looks for link ...
<rickspencer3> here is his blog:
<rickspencer3> http://blog.didrocks.fr/
<rickspencer3> you can ask him in #quickly for specific URL
<rickspencer3> as I say, we would love to see more templates :)
<akgraner> <A4Tech> QUESTION: Will there be added a template for creating applets in quickly?
<rickspencer3> sure, if someone makes one, we would certainly include it
<akgraner> <yltsrc> QUESTION: will other languages supported by quickly?
<rickspencer3> again ...
<rickspencer3> Quickly is a fully FOSS project, so we welcome contribution of other templates (and improvements to ubuntu-project template)
<rickspencer3> I am most passionate about Ubuntu desktop apps, so that's where I will be focusing my energies ;)
<rickspencer3> let's touch on packaging right quick before we move on
<rickspencer3> so ...
<rickspencer3> after you get searchy all working great
<rickspencer3> you might want to put it on other computers, or share it with other people
<rickspencer3> traditionally, this has been very very very confusing and hard to do
<rickspencer3> Quickly solves this problem by creating an application that is designed to be packaged as a ".deb" package
<rickspencer3> tbh, your app can be packaged as is, but let's do a little work to make it a little better
<rickspencer3> To make a package with quickly, you'll want to start by licensing your software.
<rickspencer3> To do this, start by editing the generated file called "Copyright".
<rickspencer3> this file *won't* be open in your edit by the $quickly edit command, so you'll need to go ahead an open it
<rickspencer3> Change the top line to have the current year and your name and your email.
<rickspencer3> So I would make the top line look like this:
<rickspencer3> # Copyright (C) 2009 Rick Spencer rick.spencer@canonical.com
<rickspencer3> now we can tell quickly to license all the files like this:
<rickspencer3> $quickly license
<rickspencer3> The ubuntu-project template is going to use this to apply the GPL V3 (as no license is given in the command arg) to Searchy python files.
<rickspencer3> you can use other licenses too, but that's kinda out of scope for the tutorial
<rickspencer3> Now I need to provide just a little info to quickly so that it knows enough about my project to make a good package.
<rickspencer3> This info is provided in the setup.py file.
<rickspencer3> Open setup.py.
<rickspencer3> Scroll down to the part that says:
<rickspencer3> ##################################################################################
<rickspencer3> ###################### YOU SHOULD MODIFY ONLY WHAT IS BELOW ######################
<rickspencer3> ##################################################################################
<rickspencer3> you can personalize your package, see:
<rickspencer3> http://paste.ubuntu.com/262183/
<rickspencer3> for an example
<rickspencer3> you can skip that for now if you're following along
<rickspencer3> when you are ready to make the package, do:
<rickspencer3> $quickly package
<rickspencer3> First, it will search through your project for dependencies.
<rickspencer3> Then quickly package does a bunch of deb magic.
<rickspencer3> a whole bunch of noisy stuff will be printed out to your terminal
<rickspencer3> but at the end, you'll have a .deb file in the same directory as your searchy directory
<rickspencer3> If you double click on the .deb file, you can install it using gebi
<rickspencer3> then searchy will be in your Applications menu!
<rickspencer3> if you send someone the .deb file, it will work for them too
<rickspencer3> that's a good intro, I hope
<rickspencer3> any questions?
<rickspencer3> ok, thanks all!
<rickspencer3> come find me in #quickly or in #ubuntu-desktop
<jcastro> woo, thanks Rick!
<akgraner> Thanks Rick
<jcastro> Next  up is the ubuntu one team
<jcastro> joshuahoover, you have about 2 minutes before you begin
<joshuahoover> jcastro: sounds good
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to Ubuntu Open Week! https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek || Session: Ubuntu One || All questions go in #ubuntu-classroom-chat ||
<joshuahoover> Hi everyone, thanks for joining this session on Ubuntu One! My name is Joshua Hoover. I'm the project administrator for Ubuntu One.
<joshuahoover> I'm going to have mattgriffin (our product manager) and __lucio__ and Chipaca helping out today
<joshuahoover> __lucio__ and Chipaca are lead developers on the Ubuntu One project, super smart guys who can help answer more technical questions :)
<joshuahoover> For those not already familiar with Ubuntu One, here is the 2 sentence summary: Ubuntu One is your personal cloud. You can use it to back up, store, sync and share your data with other Ubuntu One users.
<joshuahoover> Today we're going to go into a bit more detail on what that means for you as a user, developer and contributer. We'll cover:
<joshuahoover> 1) How to setup Ubuntu One2) How to use the various features (files, contacts, notes, bookmarks)
<joshuahoover> 3) Provide info on the technology we're using
<joshuahoover> 4) Provide developers with resources that will help them make use of Ubuntu One
<joshuahoover> 5) Highlight how you can get involved with the project
<joshuahoover> We'll take questions at section 3 and then at the end.
<joshuahoover> Let's start!
<joshuahoover> If you're using Ubuntu 9.10 (Karmic), you have Ubuntu One installed on your system already. If you are on Ubuntu 9.04 (Jaunty), you'll need to follow the install instructions found here: https://one.ubuntu.com/support/installation/
<joshuahoover> Let's launch Ubuntu One and set it up: Applications >> Internet >> Ubuntu One
<joshuahoover> Your browser should open
<joshuahoover> If you are not already logged into Launchpad, you will be asked to do so. If you don't have a Launchpad account, you can create one from the login screen.
<joshuahoover> Once you're logged in, you'll need to add your computer to your account (and subscribe to a plan if you haven't previously subscribed to Ubuntu One)
<joshuahoover> You should now see the web interface for files. Congratulations! You've got an Ubuntu One subscription and have the client setup on your computer. :-)
<joshuahoover> Now we'll dive into some of the specific features and how to use them and set those up.
<joshuahoover> Let's work with files first. Click on the Places >> Ubuntu One
<joshuahoover> This is where you will put all your files that you want to have synchronized with Ubuntu One. You'll also notice a "Shared With Me" folder there. This is a special folder that will hold any folders other Ubuntu One users share with you.
<joshuahoover> Let's copy a folder with a small file over to our ~/Ubuntu One folder so we can see it work. I'm copying my ~/Test folder with a file named "test.txt" to the ~/Ubuntu One folder now.
<joshuahoover> You should see a notification telling you your files are updating.
<joshuahoover> Once the folder and file are uploaded, you will see another notification telling you Ubuntu One is done updating.
<joshuahoover> Now's a good time to check out the web interface by going to: https://one.ubuntu.com/files
<joshuahoover> You should see your folder and file in the web interface. On the web we can upload new files, delete files and folders, and more. See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOne/Tutorials/FileSharing#Web%20browser for more info on managing your files in the web interface.
<joshuahoover> Since we're in the web interface, let's take a look at how to share files and folders with other people.
<joshuahoover> Click on a folder under "My Files" and then click the "Sharing" link.
<joshuahoover> Type in an email address, a name for this share that will appear to the person you're sending it to, and select whether you want this folder to be read-only or not.
<joshuahoover> Click the "Share this Folder" button.
<joshuahoover> The person you sent the share to will now receive an email. If they don't have an Ubuntu One subscription, they'll be able to subscribe to the server and then have access to your share on the web and (if they have Ubuntu One installed) on their computer under the "Shared With Me" folder.
<joshuahoover> To cancel the share, click on the "Sharing" link again.
<joshuahoover> Click the "Stop Sharing" button.
<joshuahoover> Now that person won't be able to access that shared folder anymore.
<joshuahoover> For more info on files in Ubuntu One, please check out this tutorial: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOne/Tutorials/FileSharing
<joshuahoover> Contacts are next.
<joshuahoover> In order to fully use contacts in Ubuntu One, you'll need to be running Ubuntu 9.10 (Karmic) and Evolution for managing your contacts.
<joshuahoover> Open Evolution, Applications >> Internet >> Evolution Mail
<joshuahoover> We're going to copy our contacts from our current Evolution address book to the Ubuntu One address book first. A tutorial with screen shots that you can follow along with is at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOne/Tutorials/Contacts#Copy%20Evolution%20contacts%20to%20Ubuntu%20One
<joshuahoover> Click on the Contacts button in the left window pane
<joshuahoover> Click on your Personal address book
<joshuahoover> From the Actions menu select Copy All Contacts To...
<joshuahoover> Select Ubuntu One and click OK
<joshuahoover> All your contacts should now be copied to the Ubuntu One address book.
<joshuahoover> For steps on how to set the Ubuntu One address book to be your default address book in Evolution, please see: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOne/Tutorials/Contacts#Set%20Ubuntu%20One%20as%20your%20default%20address%20book
<joshuahoover> If all went well, we should be able to see our contacts on the web at: https://one.ubuntu.com/contacts within 10 minutes of transferring our contacts to the Ubuntu One address book
<joshuahoover> Now we can edit our contacts on the web and Evolution and they'll be in sync. :-)
<joshuahoover> One important note: Syncing between the Ubuntu One cloud and your desktop occurs every 10 minutes for contacts and bookmarks.
<joshuahoover> For more info on managing contacts on the web, please see: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOne/Tutorials/Contacts#Managing%20contacts%20on%20the%20web
<joshuahoover> Now on to notes.
<joshuahoover> In order to fully use notes in Ubuntu One, you'll need to be running Ubuntu 9.10 (Karmic) and Tomboy.
<joshuahoover> Open Applications >> Accessories >> Tomboy Notes
<joshuahoover> We're going to setup Tomboy to sync with Ubuntu One. A tutorial with screen shots that you can follow along with is at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOne/Tutorials/Notes#Setup%20Tomboy%20to%20sync%20with%20Ubuntu%20One
<joshuahoover> Select Preferences from the Tomboy Edit menu
<joshuahoover> Click on the Synchronization tab
<joshuahoover> Select Tomboy Web from the Service drop down list
<joshuahoover> Set the Server text input field to https://one.ubuntu.com/notes/
<joshuahoover> Click on the Connect to Server button
<joshuahoover> Your browser should open, asking you to sign in to Ubuntu One
<joshuahoover> Sign in and then add your computer to your Ubuntu One account with a friendly name (right now it incorrectly defaults to "none", we'll be fixing this)
<joshuahoover> On success, you will receive a message: Tomboy Web Authorization Successful
<joshuahoover> Let's go back to Tomboy
<joshuahoover> Click the Save button in the preferences dialog
<joshuahoover> When prompted if you want to synchronize your notes now, click the Yes button
<joshuahoover> Click the "Close" button when you see the successful sync dialog.
<joshuahoover> Now, if you go to https://one.ubuntu.com/notes/ you should see your notes there. For more information on how to manage your notes on the web, please see: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOne/Tutorials/Notes#Managing%20notes%20on%20the%20web
<joshuahoover> Last, but not least, we have bookmarks, which is still in beta
<joshuahoover> You must be using Ubuntu 9.10 (Karmic) and Firefox 3.5.x to use bookmarks.
<joshuahoover> First, please close all your Firefox windows.
<joshuahoover> Now let's install The Ubuntu One bookmarks extension, which is called "bindwood".
<joshuahoover> A graphical tutorial for installing Bindwood, can be found here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOne/Tutorials/Bookmarks
<joshuahoover> To keep things short, let's install from a terminal session: $ sudo apt-get bindwood
<joshuahoover> Now open Firefox
<joshuahoover> When prompted to allow Bindwood access to the keyring click Always Allow
<joshuahoover> dutchie made a good catch on the install:  $ sudo apt-get install bindwood
<joshuahoover> sorry if that tripped people up
<joshuahoover> Firefox may not be responsive for a bit as it adds existing bookmarks to the underlying CouchDB database. This is normal. It is not normal if Firefox is continually not responding with Bindwood installed.
<joshuahoover> Those are the core features of Ubuntu One: Storing, syncing and sharing files, contacts, notes, and bookmarks
<joshuahoover> So what's the tech behind all this?
<joshuahoover> Here's the ultra quick overview of the technology for Ubuntu One:
<joshuahoover> Languages - PythonDatabases - Postgres, CouchDB
<joshuahoover> Messaging - RabbitMQ
<joshuahoover> Misc. - Amazon EC2 & S3, Django
<joshuahoover> Rather than go into details, does anyone have any questions about the tech we're using?
<joshuahoover> QUESTION: What is couch data?
<joshuahoover> When we refer to "couch data" we mean the data stored in CouchDB, which is used as the database for contacts and bookmarks
<joshuahoover> QUESTION: What is RabbitMQ?
<joshuahoover> __lucio__ or Chipaca: care to answer that one?
<Chipaca> RabbitMQ is an erlang server that implements AMQP, a message queue
<joshuahoover> Chipaca: maybe tell people what we use it for
<Chipaca> we use it to let the different bits talk to each other
<joshuahoover> QUESTION: why use couchdb rather than a more traditional database?
<joshuahoover> __lucio__ or Chipaca: care to answer this one as well? ^^
<Chipaca> as __lucio__ said, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Message_Queuing_Protocol
<joshuahoover> Are there any other questions about the Ubuntu One technology? We'll take other questions at the end.
<joshuahoover> QUESTION: how does the synchronization in U1 work? could it be be used to say... synchronize all my facebook contacts on my laptop with my desktop?
<Chipaca> in theory, yes; somebody would have to write the bits to plug the facebook addressbook (or whatever it is) into Ubuntu One
<mattgriffin> yitsrc: dev plans info coming up
<joshuahoover> OK, if we don't have anymore tech specific questions, let's go over some developer info
<joshuahoover> Now that Karmic is released, we're going to show developers some more love.
<__lucio__> re why couch? http://developers.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/03/24/1744227 theres lots more info
<joshuahoover> We have plans to create more docs and how-to's that explain how a Developer can make  use of Ubuntu One.
<joshuahoover> And, of course, we want to keep collaborating with all of you out there that have projects that might be interested in Ubuntu One and vice versa!
<joshuahoover> OK, now onto some Ubuntu One resources for developers:
<joshuahoover> Desktop Couch is all about CouchDB on the desktop, which is now standard in Karmic.
<joshuahoover> By using Desktop Couch in your project, you'll get automatic replication and synchronization right out of the box in addition to libraries that make using CouchDB easier in your Python and C based applications.
<mattgriffin> A4Tech: we just increased the storage for the paid plan to 50 GB. we will probably offer higher capacity plans in the future but nothing to announce today.
<joshuahoover> Developer related links for Desktop Couch include:
<joshuahoover> Desktop Couch Launchpad project - https://edge.launchpad.net/desktopcouch
<joshuahoover> Specifications - http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Specifications/desktopcouch
<joshuahoover> Desktop Couch Google Group - http://groups.google.com/group/desktop-couchdb
<joshuahoover> Desktop Couch specification - http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Specifications/desktopcouch
<joshuahoover> Stuart Langridge's Desktop Couch IRC talk - http://www.kryogenix.org/days/2009/09/03/desktop-couch-irc-talk
<joshuahoover> Stuart Langridge's presentation, Building applications with Ubuntu One - http://www.kryogenix.org/code/building-applications-with-ubuntu-one/
<joshuahoover> One project using Desktop Couch is Quickly, which rickspencer3 gave a session on just before this one.
<mattgriffin> A4Tech: API info coming up
<joshuahoover> Quickly helps you create software programs (and other things) quickly. It's like the Django or Rails for Ubuntu development. Very cool.
<joshuahoover> Links for Quickly include:
<joshuahoover> Quickly Launchpad project - https://edge.launchpad.net/quickly
<joshuahoover> Quickly wiki page - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Quickly
<joshuahoover> If you're interested in building a file sync client for Ubuntu One, your best bet currently is to look at the code for the Ubuntu One client and the Ubuntu One storage protocol:
<joshuahoover> Ubuntu One client code  Launchpad page - https://code.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntuone-client
<joshuahoover> Ubuntu One storage protocol code Launchpad page - https://code.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntuone-storage-protocol
<joshuahoover> We'd like to see other file sync clients built for Ubuntu One. If you're interested making a client, please contact myself, Chipaca, or __lucio__ on the #ubuntuone IRC channel at any time.
<__lucio__> yltsrc, symlink support will be ready for lucid.
<__lucio__> if anyone wants to build a client, ill do my best to help. i really want to see that happen and im interested in seeing how it goes.
<joshuahoover> So that's what we have right now for developers. Like I said earlier, we are going to increase developer resources going forward so that some of you can build truly great apps that make the most of Ubuntu and the Ubuntu One cloud!
<joshuahoover> Now on to how you can contribute to Ubuntu One
<joshuahoover> There are a variety of ways that anyone can contribute to the Ubuntu One project. Here are just a few:
<joshuahoover> Bug triage - Help us triage bugs. Some Ubuntu One specific guidelines can be found here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOne#Bug%20Triage
<joshuahoover> Join #ubuntuone on freenode - Help other users or chat with the development team. Tell us how Ubuntu One is working for you and how you're using it each day.
<joshuahoover> Participate on LP Answers and Ubuntu Forums to help get the right answers out to users with questions.
<joshuahoover> For developers who also work in a multi-platform world, we would be happy to help you port the client software over so more users on other OSs can enjoy Ubuntu One.
<mattgriffin> yltsrc: ^^^
<joshuahoover> Please keep passing along your great suggestions. For now, just file a bug and mention that it's a feature suggestion. We review them daily and are always interested in what our users want out of the service.
<joshuahoover> Promote Ubuntu One - Tell your friends and family. Ubuntu One simplifies many of the tasks that are frequently complex in Ubuntu so helping them to switch from other platforms should be easier.
<joshuahoover> We're very excited about Ubuntu One and hope you are too. Here are a few links about Ubuntu One that you may find helpful:
<joshuahoover> Website - https://one.ubuntu.com
<joshuahoover> Blog - http://voices.canonical.com/ubuntuone/
<joshuahoover> Identi.ca - http://identi.ca/ubuntuone
<joshuahoover> Twitter - http://twitter.com/ubuntuone
<joshuahoover> Tutorials - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOne/Tutorials/
<joshuahoover> Release notes - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOne/ReleaseNotes
<joshuahoover> Lauchpad project - https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntuone
<joshuahoover> Now, we would be happy to answer questions you may have. :-)
<joshuahoover> QUESTION: Will there be a Windows client?
<__lucio__> yes
<__lucio__> but far away in the future :)
<joshuahoover> heh, thanks __lucio__!
<__lucio__> porting is not that hard, but maintaining a whole new build environment is
<joshuahoover> QUESTION: When will ubuntu one be available for other ubuntu versions?
<mattgriffin> ScottK: we realize many work in a multi-platform world, but windows development is not where our strengths lie. this is where we need the community's help.
<__lucio__> on 10.4, 10.10, 11.04
<__lucio__> etc :)
<joshuahoover> QUESTION: Can Ubuntu One be based on our disk space: meaning that we can share files as big as we want as long as there is disk space available on the other computer?
<__lucio__> i dont think that we will backport to 8.10 or earlier
<Chipaca> ah!
<mattgriffin> dhillon-v10: interesting idea but i don't anticipate us moving in that direction in the future
<Chipaca> we have considered doing local syncing
<Chipaca> so if we get round to that, then yes, over a local network
<__lucio__> MenZa, thats also your answer re opening the server. we will allow for p2p sync in the future, without servers.
<Chipaca> also, if the file is too big, it won't download
<joshuahoover> Any other questions about Ubuntu One?
<joshuahoover> Remember, mattgriffin is the Product Manager for Ubuntu One and __lucio__ and Chipaca are two of the lead developers. Take advantage of the next 15 minutes while you can. :)
<mattgriffin> MenZa: did we answer your questions regarding APIs for 3rd party apps usage?
<joshuahoover> QUESTION: Are their any clients for other platforms yet?
<joshuahoover> No, no other clients right now for other platforms.
<__lucio__> right now the client is only for linux/gtk, packaged for ubuntu (as far as i know)
<__lucio__> we will do headless clients (no gui, can be run on servers), then maybe kde,
<__lucio__> then maybe some packaging will occur
<__lucio__> and we want to get to mac and windows
<joshuahoover> Kubuntu users can use Ubuntu One, but they have to install GNOME dependencies...but it does work.
<joshuahoover> QUESTION: What about mobile devices?
<joshuahoover> mattgriffin: ^^
<joshuahoover> QUESTION: when will a home server version be available, for those of us with our own servers?
<mattgriffin> Ibrinkma: we realize the benefits of mobile (browser-based and/or apps) so we will work on those in the future.
<joshuahoover> We do not intend on making the server portion of our code available in the near future, but we are considering sync across your local LAN between computers
<joshuahoover> Question - is the data encrypted on the server? If no, why not?
<Chipaca> Also, a headless client might be what you want for a home server
<Chipaca> it is not encrypted, but will be in the future
<joshuahoover> Data on the server is not encrypted unless you encrypt it locally right now
<joshuahoover> Please see: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOne/Security for more info on our security and privacy
<Chipaca> we didn't encrypt it because it makes sharing a lot harder, and it's already fairly hard
<mattgriffin> furicle: server encryption causes problems with syncing and sharing... two features that are really important to ubuntu one
<joshuahoover> QUeSTION: how about family plans?
<joshuahoover> mattgriffin: ^^
<joshuahoover> QUESTION: is Canonical expected to work together with Mozilla's Weave? They seem complementary.
<mattgriffin> Solarion: there will be a family plan for multiple users (user management) and enhanced sharing abilities
<joshuahoover> We've talked to people at Mozilla and we definitely have some things that are complimentary, but we have no details on future plans there.
<joshuahoover> QUESTION: So now we can sync contacts. How about subscribing to another Ubuntu One user contact information, so they are always up-to-date?
<mattgriffin> Solarion: we don't anticipate having this ready for Lucid. many other features we're working on :)
<joshuahoover> Subscribing to another Ubuntu One user's contact info isn't something we've discussed per se, but we have discussed sharing of contact information, which could include your own contact information, of course
<mattgriffin> Chopinhauer: that fits into our sharing plans and sharing of contacts
<joshuahoover> QUESTION: business plans as well? Do you expect to tie in to computer/server management here for enterprise (or enterprising home) situations?
<joshuahoover> mattgriffin: ^^
<joshuahoover> QUESTION: Why don't you release the server part?
<mattgriffin> Solarion: there are many similarities between a family plan and a business (or small business) plan. those will probably be developed and released around the same time.
<joshuahoover> We currently don't plan to release the file sharing server code and web UI / credit card billing code, and that code is written assuming that things are running on S3/EC2, so it couldn't be run on your own servers very easily anyway.
<joshuahoover> QUESTION: how about sharing feature - not only via email, but via http url also? (just like in dropbox, when you can just use direct link for giving access to your data). Did you think about this?
<Chipaca> that is already done
<joshuahoover> We will be providing public sharing of files/folders with just a URL
<Chipaca> however, right now the other person needs to have an account as well
<mattgriffin> ukev: we want ubuntu one to make money and enable us to fund future development.. most of the service is open... see joshuahoover's reply ^^^
<Chipaca> public urls are for lucid afaik
<joshuahoover> Chipaca: correct, we'll be doing those as part of lucid
<joshuahoover> QUESTION: There was a Akonadi and Couchdb demo done at GCDS.  Is anything coming of that.
<joshuahoover> We're still working with Akonadi and will continue making progress there in regards to Akonadi and Desktop Couch
<joshuahoover> Alright, thanks everyone for your time and great questions! we'll be on #ubuntuone, so feel free to ping me there.
<popey> Is it me?
<joshuahoover> popey: it's all yours
<popey> Thanks
<popey> A-hoy hoy!
<popey> I'm Alan Pope and I have been using Ubuntu for about 5 years now on desktops, laptops and servers.
<popey> I like to help other people run Ubuntu, and I do that via mailing lists and IRC, and in real life.
<popey> I'm on the Community Council, LoCo Council, EMEA Membership Board and I'm one of the presenters of the Ubuntu UK Podcast.
<popey> ..and apparently I look a bit like Elvis
<popey> I'm not a developer, in fact my contribution in terms of code to Ubuntu consists of one line of C
<popey> http://launchpadlibrarian.net/26251982/patch.txt <- See lines 36 & 37 in that file
<popey> (arguably that's two characters, not one line, but lets not be too picky) :)
<popey> I'm telling you this because I believe there is a lot of room for people to contribute to Ubuntu by helping others when things go wrong.
<popey> Fabian Rodriguez talked earlier about how to be your neighbour's Ubuntu Guru which is great, especially if you already know how to help them, how to fix things for them, but what if you don't?
<popey> My session is called.. "What to do when things go wrong."
<popey> or
<popey> +------------+
<popey> |DON'T PANIC!|
<popey> +------------+
<popey> This session is aimed at people who need help understanding what to do when things go wrong, and people who want to help others in that situation.
<popey> It's quite a basic session, so we won't be going massively technical (I hope)
<popey> Ok, lets begin...
<popey> All computer systems fail in some way at some point.
<popey> All of them.
<popey> No matter what a salesperson may tell you!
<popey> In fact I'm sure many of you have stories about how your own computers have failed in spectacular/amusing/frustrating ways in the past.
<popey> The computer I am typing this on sometimes shuts down in the middle of whilst I'm
<popey> ..but hopefully today it will stay yo
<popey> *up
<popey> So what do we do when things go wrong, and what do I mean by 'wrong' in this case?
<popey> Now given this is Ubuntu Open Week, lets start with a basic assumption that you're using Ubuntu or some derivative of it :)
<popey> QUESTION: How many people in -chat are using Ubuntu or some derivative?
<popey> Ok, good start :)
<popey> These are generally not _solutions_ to problems:-
<popey> * Rebooting - This may make the issue go away temporarily, or perhaps permanently, but it rarely _fixes_ anything
<popey> * Reinstalling - Whilst your system may be 'messed up' almost always there is a way to 'unmess' it without wiping out and starting again
<popey> * Sacrificing chickens - Whilst it is indeed fun to draw chalk pentagrams on the floor, and scented candles make the room smell less funky, think of the poor chickens.
<popey>  
<popey> Step 1: Identifying there is even a problem.
<popey>  
<popey> In recent versions of Ubuntu the notification system (battery warning popups for example) have 'lost' the ability to be clicked.
<popey> Some might consider this a problem, bug or a regression from previous functionality
<popey> However this particular change was intentional, a design decision.
<popey> Some may like it, some may not, but the fact remains that this particular feature was designed in, and arguably isn't a problem as such.
<popey> So part of this process is merely understanding that there is even an issue, and that will come out over the next steps.
<popey>  
<popey> Step 2: Identifying what the problem actually is
<popey>  
<popey> Lets suppose someone (you or someone else) has a problem, how can we find out more?
<popey> * Questions we could ask..
<popey> Many of these questions are generic and thus will help in problem diagnosis for just about any kind of problem.
<popey> Of course each issue has very specific questions that may be asked, and we don't have time now to go through all of them.
<popey>  
<popey> "Describe the problem"
<popey>  - Before diving into lots of probing technical questions, get the user to describe the issue in their own words.
<popey>  - Think about how this looks/feels for them. Imagine the frustration they have when their system isn't working the way they see it 'should'.
<popey>  - It may be that after this very first question with a little experience it's possible to point to an explaination or solution to the issue.
<popey>  
<popey> "Do you get an error message?"
<popey>  - Often users will ignore error messages because they make no sense, are technical, or perhaps don't stay on screen very long
<popey>  - In the event that a program crashes, getting the user to run it from a terminal may yield textual error messages they may not otherwise see
<popey>  - Error messages and message codes are great, even if we don't understand their meaning!
<popey>  
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to Ubuntu Open Week! https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek || Session:  What to do when things go wrong || All questions go in #ubuntu-classroom-chat ||
<popey> "When did this previously work?"
<popey>  - Perhaps the application in use has never worked, maybe it worked last time it was tested, and that was 6 months ago.
<popey>  
<popey> "What changed?"
<popey> It could be that some software has been updated/installed...
<popey> ..or perhaps the printer now has a new IP address thanks to DHCP...
<popey> ..or the earth rotated and the day rolled over - see bug 255161 - "The Tuesday printing bug"...
<popey> (great bug, everyone should read that)
<popey> ..maybe a hardware issue has manifestied itself - RAM going bad, a capacitor going pop, solder on the video card breaking down, dust in the heatsink causing overheating..
<popey> ..the possibilities are almost endless. Fun!
<popey>  
<popey> So 'nothing changed' is often a phrase which should be taken with a pinch of salt :)
<popey>  
<popey> "{How} can you reproduce the problem?"
<popey>  - Some issues are one-off or imtermittent whilst others are easily reproducable. Which is this?
<popey>  - There's a big difference between 'Firefox crashes' and 'Firefox crashes when I have 500 tabs open, and I visit my gallery showing a zillion lolcat pictures using a java applet'.
<popey>  - If the user can reproduce the error condition it greatly improves the ability to diagnose the problem.
<popey>  
<popey> (in addition, if someone _else_ can reproduce the error issue, things are even easier to diagnose - more eyeballs on the problem)
<popey>  
<popey> "Can you screenshot/pastebin the issue?"
<popey>  - If the issue is a visual one - such as applications looking 'wrong' then a picture tells a thousand words.
<popey>  - Use tools like http://imagebin.org/  http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/ and pastebinit to capture detail
<popey>  - In some cases this is difficult or impossible. Kernel panics for example aren't easy to screenshot. Some people take photos with mobile phones in this instance :)
<popey>  
<popey> Ok, so by now we should have some kind of handle on what the user is experiencing.
<popey> We might not yet know why, and whether it's fixable / changeable, but we should at least understand what the user is seeing which is a great first step.
<popey> I'm happy to take questions btw :)
<popey> ok, so moving on..
<popey> Step 3: Getting more information
<popey>  
<popey> This is where we start delving further into the issue.
<popey> Some of these questions will be more/less useful than others, depending on the specific issue.
<popey>  
<popey> "What version of Ubuntu are you using?"
<popey>  - Applications change over time, and perhaps the 'issue' is just that the user is seeing unexpected functional changes.
<popey>  - System -> About Ubuntu, and the command "lsb_release -a" help here.
<popey>  
<popey> "What have you tried so far?"
<popey>  - It's possible the user has gone through a lot of online guides and has got the system into a state which is worse than when they started. It's a good idea to find out what they did, so any damage can be undone.
<popey>  
<popey> 20:17:01 < Solarion> QUESTION: Is panicking a good option?
<popey> Excellent question!
<popey> The problem with panicing is it leads to making rash decisions
<popey> When people panic, they do silly things like reinstalling without backing up crucial data
<popey> or try installing extra stuff to fix the broken thing
<popey> or edit random files without backing up the file before hand
<popey> Whilst there may be a time pressure to fix something, panicing usually doens't help :)
<popey>  
<popey> "What version of the application are you using?"
<popey>  - Perhaps this is an issue that only manifests itself in one particular version
<popey>  - Maybe what the user experiences is actually now standard functionality (as per Step 1 above)
<popey>  - Help -> About in most applications can find the version, but what if it's crashing, so the user can't access that?
<popey>   - "dpkg -l <packagename>" will list the version of the package the user has installed.
<popey>   - http://packages.ubuntu.com/<packagename> is useful as a reference of what versions of packages might be installed
<popey>  
<popey> 20:19:50 < sebsebseb> QUESTION:  How to quickly  and smoothley calm someone down,  that moans and moans and moans, when things start going wrong with their Ubuntu install?
<popey> A nice cup of tea and a biscuit may help here.
<popey> Seriously though..
<popey> In my experience it's a case of managing someones expectations
<popey> saying something like "Ok, your system is broken, there's a number of options..1) we investigate things, this will take some time, 2) we reinstall, you may lose config/data, 3) we restore from backup, you may lose config, data"
<popey> (or whatever the options are in this hypothetical scenario)
<popey> explaining the options to the user, and empowering them to make the decision as to the next step is useful
<popey> always keeping them informed of the risks/benefits of each step
<popey> 20:21:39 < Solarion> QUESTION: At what point is it advisable to subscribe to canonical support?  Are Universe and Multiverse supported?
<popey> Good question.
<popey> It's always a good time to subscribe to Canonical support if you have the money :)
<popey> But it's a choice the user has to make.
<popey> They might be of the mind that they want an "authoratitive answer" to their support questions
<popey> some people just dont like placing trust in a community of individuals
<popey> some prefer to pay the piper
<popey> if so, then paid canonical support may be for them
<popey> As for which bits are supported, you'd need to ask canonical that.
<popey> 20:22:11 < Solarion> QUESTION: Is canonical working at some sort of global rollback of configuration, perhaps through git?
<popey> Dunno, you'd need to ask them.
<popey> 20:22:37 < openweek5> Question: when something *is'nt working* is there an easy way to tell if the app is incorrectly/not/wrongly, configured?
<popey> Good question. I have compared applications between machines before now
<popey> and compared configuration between machines..
<popey> I've even had python mess up on me so badly that I had to copy /usr/bin/python from one machine to another to be able to get up and running again
<popey> which is somewhat scary :) copying binary program files around isn't really what we should have to do to fix stuff
<popey>  
<popey> ok, back to the step 3 "getting more info"..
<popey> "Are you using any non-standard packages or repositories?"
<popey>  - Users often install packages from PPAs or 3rd party repositories, sometimes these packages can conflict with existing packages
<popey>  
<popey> Ok, so by this point, asking yourself (or the person who needs help) those questions should get you fairly far in understanding what the issue is..
<popey> ..but how can you help yourself to fix it..
<popey>  
<popey> Step 3: Helping yourself
<popey>  
<popey> Now of course I can't go through every possible support problem in Ubuntu and give a solution here, but I can point to where you can help yourself to get more diagnostic information.
<popey> 1) Finding the right package - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/FindRightPackage
<popey>  - Whilst your issue might not actually be a bug, the above page is useful for figuring out which part of your Ubuntu system has a problem.
<popey>  
<popey> 2) Debugging applications - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingProcedures
<popey>  - Again, you might not be experiencing a bug, but you can learn a lot about the problem from debugging it
<popey>  
<popey> 3) Useful tools to help you diagnose / fix issues
<popey>  - A live Linux CD. I tend to have an Ubuntu Desktop CD of the most recent few releases kicking around in my toolbox.
<popey>  - I'll also keep a Knoppix DVD handy, because that's got lots more useful 'stuff' on it than the standard Ubuntu Desktop CD.
<popey>  - A bootable USB key running a recent release of Ubuntu. Many new computers - netbooks especially - don't come with optical drives, so USB sticks are very handy here.
<popey>  - A copy of the ISO images of the main recent releases of Ubuntu
<popey>  - A copy of the entire repository (perhaps a step to far :) ) on my network so I can easily install/reinstall systems quickly
<popey>  
<popey> QUESTION: What else do people in -chat have in your toolbox that I missed?
<popey> whilst you think on that, a question...
<popey> 20:31:24 < aim1159> QUESTION: how to deal with binary apps such as flash plugin, adobe reader and etc.
<popey> Good question. There are 3 binary apps on my system that I have trouble with, nvidia driver, flash and skype :(
<popey> with flash I mitigate issues (with youtube) by using a great greasemonkey script called "youtube perfect"
<popey> https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/748  +   http://userscripts.org/scripts/show/38074  == awesome
<popey> for nvidia I ran with the nouveau driver on my dual screen desktop for a while, and that works really nicely, but no 3d yet :(
<popey> sadly if you choose to run binary stuff like this you're a bit limited, however at least nvidia have their own bug reporting tool which helps to gather info for sending to nvidia
<popey> Some good answers to my question about what people have in their toolbox...
<popey> 20:32:36 < aim1159> popey: system rescue cd - the gentoo derivative very handy to get thing working
<popey> 20:34:00 < JohnRobert> ANSWER: another computer with the internet
<popey> +1
<popey> 20:34:23 < Solarion> popey: for those situations in which nothing else is working, I like to be sure to pack a portable hard surface against which to pound my head until my thinking clears or consciousness dissipates.
<popey> 20:34:44 < furicle> Toolbox musts - a USB -> SATA, IDE adapter so you can take the drive to a different machine
<popey> 20:35:04 < Mean-Machine> popey: Ubuntu Rescue Remix http://ubuntu-rescue-remix.org/
<popey> ooo, not heard of that, looks handy :)
<popey> 20:36:08 < itnet7> popey: a known working usb wireless adapter
<popey> that is vital, especially for random laptops you're installing on!
<popey> 20:34:30 < sebsebseb> JohnRobert: Live CD's are also useful if problems happen, as well as sometimes the recovery mode
<popey> indeed, recovery mode has saved me a few times!
<popey> 20:37:09 < Solarion> popey: network cable is a good idea
<popey> heh, I used to carry a yellow and a blue laplink cable around, back in the day
<popey> showing my age now
<popey> 20:37:21 < FuturePilot> popey: usb hard drive for backup up data
<popey> ooo, good one...
<popey> I recently did a reinstall for a user.. hang on finding blog post...
<popey> http://popey.com/blog/2009/07/16/migrating-from-wubi-to-full-ubuntu-install/
<popey> used a USB hard disk to backup user data, then reinstall to convert from wubi to "proper" install
<popey> very handy to have around
<popey> Ok, moving on...
<popey>  
<popey> Step 4: Getting help with the problem
<popey>  
<popey> Armed with the information above, you'll be able to get further help (if required) from any of the following places:-
<popey>  
<popey> 1) IRC - #ubuntu is the official support channel for Ubuntu
<popey>  - There are great people who are happy to give support and advice to users.
<popey>  - Arriving armed with the detail set out in step 2 could make support easier for others, and get your issue resolved quicker!
<popey>  - #ubuntu can get busy at some times. See bug 392799 "#ubuntu too noisy to be useful"
<popey>  
<popey> If IRC isn't your thing.. there are plenty of other options!
<popey>  
<popey> 2) Forums - http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=327
<popey>  - There's a great set of support categories on the forums, and plenty of people who can help.
<popey>  
<popey> 3) Launchpad answers - http://answers.launchpad.net/ubuntu
<popey>  - Another great way to get support is via launchpad.
<popey>  - If a support request turns out to be a bug, it's very quick/easy to convert a question to a bug report.
<popey>  
<popey> 4) Mailing lists - https://lists.ubuntu.com/#Community+Support
<popey>  - http://www.ubuntu.com/support/community/mailinglists/etiquette is worth a read :)
<popey>  - ubuntu-users gets about 1MB of email traffic per month.
<popey>  
<popey> 5) Your local LoCo team - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoTeamList
<popey>  - Your LoCo probably has experts who are willing to help you
<popey>  - They may have their own Mailing List, IRC Channel or Forum in which you can get support - perhaps in your first language if it's not EN
<popey>  
<popey> 6) Your local Linux User Group (LUG) - http://www.linux.org/groups/
<popey>  - LUGs are just like LoCos, with a wealth of knowledge to be tapped into.
<popey>  - You may even be able to attend a LUG meeting and take your problematic system along!
<popey>  
<popey> ok, a question..
<popey> 20:39:55 < aim1159> QUESTION: i got a complex prolbem with usb hard drives been disapeared from the system. filled a bugreport (https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux-meta/+bug/461264) , but nobody ever toch it. and the problem  still exist. how one can force some problems up? I mean someone non-developer?
<popey> As your question is about bugs, and the next session is about bug reporting, I'd hold off and ask it then if you can.. however..
<popey> This is a frustrating thing for many new users, and it's a difficult one to fix
<popey> We have more bugs than we have developer time to work on
<popey> We rely on people triaging bugs, and helping bug reporters to get good information in the bug report
<popey> which leads nicely onto my step 5..
<popey>  
<popey> Step 5: Filing a bug...
<popey>  
<popey> This bit is being covered by Brian Murray in his session at 21:00 UTC :)
<popey>  
<popey> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/openweekKarmic/BugReport
<popey> So that's the end of the content that I'd prepared, I'm happy to try to answer any questions
<popey> 20:46:39 < Solarion> QUESTION: does bribing devs with hardware and beer help?
<popey> Y'know, I'd say from my experience the best things are..
<popey> a) being polite and staying polite
<popey> it's frustrating when nobody looks at your bug (or so it seems) or nobody is replying, but on the whole developers don't deliberately ignore your bugs, they're just prioritising their work
<popey> b) providing the debug information that the developer asks for
<popey> there are pages about debugging I linked to earlier, and the detail you get can greatly reduce the amount of time a developer spends analyzing your bug
<popey> so it makes sense to add it if you can
<popey> 20:47:56 < openweek5> Question: I am listening to your dulcet tones on one of your podcasts - i close the lid of my laptop  carry to kitchen- to raid fridge for beer - and not only does your p/cast stop but on reopening the lid - just  grey - no combination of key strokes responds - only the power button?
<popey> haha
<popey> Personally I set gnome-power-manager to just "blank screen" when I close the lid, that way when carrying my closed laptop I can continue to listen to myself all around the house
<popey> 20:48:12 < Solarion> QUESTION: could there be some sort of reward system for ubuntu devs and MoTUs to encrouage bug-fixing?
<popey> Ask them.. I refer you to one of my first lines... "I'm not a developer"
<popey> Right I think that's me done for the evening, enjoy the rest of open week!
<jcastro> thanks alan!
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to Ubuntu Open Week! https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek || Session:  Reporting Bugs || All questions go in #ubuntu-classroom-chat ||
<jcastro> we'll start back up in 6 minutes
<jcastro> ok, time for the next session
<jcastro> this time it's with the ubuntu bugmaster
<jcastro> brian murray
<jcastro> take it away bdmurray!
<bdmurray> Hi!  So I'm here to talk about to how to report bugs about Ubuntu as there are a couple of different ways you can do it.
<bdmurray> Additionally, I'll cover how to make your bug report more likely to get fixed!
<bdmurray> And that don't include bribery. ;-)
<bdmurray> Let's start of by talking about what exactly constitutes a bug.
<bdmurray> In computer software it is an error or a flaw that causes it to behave in ways for which it wasn't designed.
<bdmurray> Some of these can result in crashes, others may have a subtle effect on functionality, others can be spelling errors.
<bdmurray> By reporting these issues you can help to make Ubuntu even better than it already is.
<bdmurray> Reported bugs are kept in Launchpad, the bug tracking system used by Ubuntu and quite a few other projects.
<bdmurray> Let's look at a sample bug report - http://launchpad.net/bugs/410318.
<bdmurray> There are four things here that I want to point out.
<bdmurray> 1) The bug's title or summary is '
<bdmurray> [i945gm] noticed "[XvMC] fail to init batch buffer" in log files'
<bdmurray> 2) In the Affects table you'll see that this bug report affects 'xserver-xorg-video-intel (Ubuntu)' this is the package / application which with the bug is about.
<bdmurray> 3) Bugs have an "Bug description" which is filled out when you are reporting a bug.
<bdmurray> 4) You'll notice the first bug comment contains multiple attachments with supporting information about the bug.
<bdmurray> So far I've talked a little about what a bug is and what the reports look like.  Are there any questions so far?
<bdmurray> question - bdmurray: How did the attachments get there?
<bdmurray> I'll be covering that shortly but they showed up because I reported the bug using an application on my Ubuntu system.
<bdmurray> So how can we report bugs to Launchpad?
<bdmurray> They can be reported via the web interface at https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/ after searching for a package.
<bdmurray> For example, I searched for firefox and was returned the following results - https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+search?text=firefox.
<bdmurray> Now I can file a bug about firefox-3.5, since that is the version I have, using the "Report a bug" button.
<bdmurray> You start by filling out the summary which becomes the bug's tile.  After which you are asked for 'Futher information' which becomes the bug's description.
<bdmurray> Both of which we saw earlier in the sample bug report.
<bdmurray> The description should contain at a minimum the following -
<bdmurray> 1) The release of Ubuntu that you found the bug in.
<bdmurray> 2) The version of the package you found the bug in.
<bdmurray> You can find that out using a command like 'apt-cache policy firefox-3.5'
<bdmurray> 3) What you expected to happen.
<bdmurray> and 4) What happened instead.
<bdmurray> You also have the opportunity to add an attachment, or bug tags, to your bug when you are reporting it via the web interface by clicking "Extra options".
<bdmurray> Back to Amaranth's question...
<bdmurray> A better way to report a bug is using apport which is an automated problem report application included with Ubuntu.
<bdmurray> The advantage to using apport is that it automatically collects information about the release of Ubuntu you are using and the version of the package / application that you are reporting the bug about.
<bdmurray> Let's say that you have encountered a bug with Firefox.
<bdmurray> You can use apport to report the bug by going to Firefox's "Help" menu and choosing "Report a Problem".
<bdmurray> Apport will start collecting information about your bug and then open a new browser window where you enter the bug's summary / title and then enter the bug's description.
<bdmurray> An example of a bug reported using the "Report a Problem" menu item is http://launchpad.net/bugs/463789.
<bdmurray> Looking at that bug you'll see information in the description regarding the DistroRelease, the package and version, and kernel version among other things.
<bdmurray> All of which was collected automatically for you by apport.
<bdmurray> The "Report a Problem" functionality has been integrated into a lot of applications.
<bdmurray> However, not every application has a help menu - take compiz for example.
<bdmurray> For cases like that we have a command line utility 'ubuntu-bug' or 'apport-cli'.
<bdmurray> For example I'd use 'ubuntu-bug compiz' to report a bug compiz.  This will call apport which will gather information for my bug report.
<bdmurray> You can also use a process id as an arguement to ubuntu-bug to report a bug about a specific process.
<bdmurray> Using apport is the preferred way to report bugs as they contain detailed information about the application and your system.
<bdmurray> Additionally, there are package hooks for various packages, like the xserver-xorg-video-intel bug report I showed earlier.  These hooks will gather specific log files that will be useful for the developers.
<bdmurray> Further information about reporting bugs can be found at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ReportingBugs.
<bdmurray> Now is good time for some questions - which I see we already have. ;-)
<bdmurray> 13:09 < alyssum> QUESTION: How do you determine which package a bug affects?   What if you are not sure which one of several options?
<bdmurray> I'll actually cover that shortly.
<bdmurray> 13:16 < akgraner> QUESTION: what if everytime you use apport to file a bug you  get "closed b/c a package was out of date" and you just  updated/upgraded ?
<bdmurray> That sounds like something that might happen if you were running the development release of Ubuntu.
<bdmurray> Its possible that the mirror you are using is a bit behind the archives.
<bdmurray> < lifer999> QUESTION: How do I ensure my bug is not a duplicate?
<bdmurray> One thing to do is search the existing bug reports about the package you are going to file a bug about.
<bdmurray> Additionally, Launchpad will recommend bugs that the bug you are reporting is a possibly a duplicate of.
<bdmurray> Its also rather easy to mark a bug as a duplicate of another so if you aren't positive yours is a duplicate feel free to report it.
<bdmurray> Even though another bug report is about not having sound in Ubuntu if you don't have the exact same hardware it is likely that your bug is not a duplicate of that one.
<bdmurray> < brobostigon> QUESTION:Is there a cli app to use to report bugs,
<bdmurray>                      especially on low end systems, with xorg, that cant deal
<bdmurray>                      with heavy browsers.?
<bdmurray> ubuntu-bug will use whatever browser you have installed
<bdmurray> additionally it is possible to save a bug report for filing later from a different system
<bdmurray> you'd use 'apport-cli -f -p <package name>' and then choose to "K: Keep report file for sending later or copying to somewhere else"
<bdmurray> How can we make our bug reports more useful for the developers?
<bdmurray> Choosing the right package or application the bug is about is critical.
<bdmurray> If a bug does not have a package assigned to it is much less likely to get looked at by anyone let alone the developer of that application.
<bdmurray> Some helpful hints for finding the proper package are at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/FindRightPackage.
<bdmurray> n particular this page contains the names of packages that might be hard to discover.
<bdmurray> it]
<bdmurray> For example, bugs about the kernel in Karmic Koala should be reported about 'linux'.
<bdmurray> Also feel free to join the #ubuntu-bugs channel if you need help identifying the proper package.
<bdmurray> That is where members of the bug squad hang out and we'll be happy to help.
<bdmurray> If you have already reported a bug about Ubuntu but didn't use apport to report it - fear not!
<bdmurray> It is still possible to use apport to gather information for bugs already reported.
<bdmurray> This can be done using the command 'apport-collect' and the number of the bug to which you want to add information.
<bdmurray> An example of this can be found in http://launchpad.net/bugs/461343.
<bdmurray> The reporter originally reported the bug about gst0.10-python but it looks more likely to be a sound driver bug so they were asked to run 'apport-collect -p alsa-base 461343'.
<bdmurray> The -p was used in this case so information will be gathered about a different package, alsa-base, rather than the package the bug is filed about.
<bdmurray> Generally you don't need that option and can just 'apport-collect' and the bug number.
<bdmurray> So if you've previously reported a bug about Ubuntu go back and check to see if it still exists in Karmic.  If it doesn't close it! ;-)  If not use apport-collect to gather some more information about it.
<bdmurray> And now some more questions
<bdmurray> < openweek5> QUESTION: when does a problem change from *you've not it
<bdmurray>                    Intalled / configured correctly, mate* to *yes, that does
<bdmurray>                    appear to be like a bug, report it* ?
<bdmurray> most packages don't require configuration so we err on the side of things being bugs until discovered otherwise
<bdmurray> Are there any more questions?
<bdmurray> < rtagger> QUESTION: If i know that the bug is fixed by adding 2 lines in
<bdmurray>                  2 files, should I prepare a complete patch or better inform
<bdmurray>                  about the files and lines inline?
<bdmurray> A complete patch, as an attachment, would be better.  It is possible to flag attachments as patches which can then be searched for.  Additionally, that'll be much easier to apply than copying stuff out of a comment.
<bdmurray> 13:41 < alyssum> QUESTION: What do we do if no one is responding to a bug we  reported (even though other people can confirm it)?
<bdmurray> One thing that can help if the package is not only in Ubuntu - is forwarding the bug to the upstream developers.
<bdmurray> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Upstream
<bdmurray> After verifying the upstream version of the software is affected too of course!
<bdmurray> 13:42 < nameiner> QUESTION: I have a problem with my battery not being  recognized after suspend. Which package is this most likely  related to?
<bdmurray> I'd start at the highest level, likely gnome-power-manager if that is where you don't see the battery.
<bdmurray> Moving on
<bdmurray> An important part of a bug's life cycle is it entering the Confirmed status.
<bdmurray> When a bug is Confirmed it means that someone has been able to recreate the bug or believes sufficient information has been included in the bug report for a developer to start working on it.
<bdmurray> Any Launchpad user can confirm a bug report, but please don't confirm your own!
<bdmurray> From a practical standpoint what this means is that you should include extremely detailed steps to recreate the bug in it's description so anyone, not just a developer, could confirm it.
<bdmurray> Click here, do this, do that...
<bdmurray> It is far better to have too much detail than not enough!
<bdmurray> Some fairly simple things you can do to make your bug report easier for someone to confirm or triage are including a screenshot, via Print Screen, or creating a screencast, using gtk-recordmydesktop as an example.
<bdmurray> An example of a bug with a screencast is http://launchpad.net/bugs/212425.
<bdmurray> The screencast clearly shows how to recreate the problem which is very helpful.
<bdmurray> One of the best ways to make your bug report more likely to be fixed is to follow the debugging procedures for the package or subsystem the bug is about!
<bdmurray> These have been written by bug triagers or the developer of the software and following them will help you create a more detailed bug report.
<bdmurray> You can find the list of debugging procedures at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingProcedures.
<bdmurray> Okay, I got through the last bits I wanted to cover.
<bdmurray> Are there any further questions?
<bdmurray> Also regarding 13:41 < alyssum> QUESTION: What do we do if no one is responding to a bug we  reported (even though other people can confirm it)?
<bdmurray> It can also help to bring the bug up in the #ubuntu-bugs channel or on the bugsquad mailing list.
<bdmurray> 13:54 < nameiner> QUESTION: How long does it usually take till someone replies  to a bug report.
<bdmurray> It really depends on the package the bug report is about.  Each package in Launchpad has separate subscriptions with different people subscribed to each one.
<bdmurray> Okay, well that's all I have.  Thanks everyone!
<bdmurray> And if need any help reporting a bug, or finding the package to report a bug on you can find members of the Ubuntu bugsquad in the #ubuntu-bugs IRC channel.
<Amaranth> thanks bdmurray
<czajkowski> Amaranth: can you set the topic?
<czajkowski> please
<Amaranth> next up is czajkowski with Running a FOSS event
* pleia2 changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to Ubuntu Open Week! https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek || Session: Running a FOSS event || All questions go in #ubuntu-classroom-chat ||
<czajkowski> thanks
<czajkowski> Aloha, I'm Laura Czajkowski, I help to run the Ubuntu-ie (Ireland) LoCo. I started to run events 5 years ago at college for my computer society and have picked up some useful pieces of information which I've found helpful.
<czajkowski> So firstly different types of events need varied amounts of preparation and organising, I'm going to try and cover and give you a few examples. Check lists, how to advertise them and just some general advice from my past events.
<czajkowski> I'll go through some stuff and then take some questions.
<czajkowski> It can be hard to come up with new events
<czajkowski> and know what to run
<czajkowski> Types of events:
<czajkowski> Geeknics - Picnic for Geeks, take yourselves out of the server room and from behind the desk. This is great as it means your family and kids can come along and get more of a community spirit behind it. Pick a park get people to bring along food they can share, some parks you can have a BBQ, something different.
<czajkowski> We have a standard monthly meet up in the pub, it can be anywhere, called a Pint of the Day. Just meet up, bring along a laptop and show something off you've seen or demo a new feature, great time now that karmic is out. On our mailing list anyone can post posting a date and time and a venue to go for a random PotD which is great for visiting LoCos so they can meet up with us.
<czajkowski> Pub Quiz - to add a bit of fun to just going to the pub and make it a bit more geeky, you can have a lot of fun with this and come up with some crazy questions to out geek the person beside you.
<czajkowski> you can hav e great fun with the questions
<czajkowski> making them very geeky or just have some fun
<czajkowski> Mark Shuttleworth is also known as 'sabdfl', what does this abbreviation stand for?
<czajkowski> What does 'Ubuntu LoCo' stand for?
<czajkowski> Ubuntu Community's manager name is: _______ _______
<czajkowski> Demo/Small Talk - try and get a small room put aside, depending on size, libraries are great to offer a small reading room, and you could have lightning talks where members of the community pick a topic and just get up and give a 5 minuet talk Â on it without the need for projectors
<czajkowski> Larger Events
<czajkowski> Barcamps -Would like to offer to help LoCos organise their own, I run www.ossbarcamp.com and would like to offer this domain to LoCos to run their own and get lots of these happening throughout the year. Shall come back to this.
<czajkowski> Conferences - need to be sure you can get an audience to attend.
<czajkowski> Advertising the Event:
<czajkowski> So I've found the best way to get your event noticed, no matter how small or large it is, is to get the word out everywhere as many times as you can and in as many places. There are so many avenues for this so lots of choice and it might be an idea to give members of your community tasks to spread the work and also get them familiar with how to promote events.
<czajkowski> identi.ca and twitter are great tools, if you have an # tag advertise this in advance so people know what to tag an event with or follow if they can't be there.
<czajkowski> Mailing list and IRC are 2 of the avenues I heavily use to let people know about our events as I've found them very useful. If there are similar groups in your area or members belong to other groups get them to drop an email about your event.
<czajkowski> Blogs - if you don't have access to getting your blog post up on the planet.Ubuntu ask someone would they post an article you've written. I'm sure others would like to hear about it and attend if they were holidaying or may even visit just for this event.
<czajkowski> Podcasts - they're popping up everywhere and there are a lot of them out there that look for content so why not talk to them and get some coverage for your event.
<czajkowski> Fossevents.org is another site I help to maintain and it has all oss/foss events on it so do add yours there. We've made it easier to submit events, and we're still working on maps, and ical feeds for LoCos
<czajkowski> Media coverage - local and national papers, write to them and let them know what you are doing and why they should come and see what you guys are doing they may be interested, curious and only looking for an invitation to come along.
<czajkowski> you get to meet media, if you go to events, not just oss ones, web conferences are a great way to meet more people and make the connections, they'll also help spread the word on your event
<czajkowski> again this is just stuff I've come up with in the past
<czajkowski> the list is no where complete but it may help new locos or old ones get some ideas
<czajkowski>  
<czajkowski> How to find a venue:
<czajkowski>  
<czajkowski> Will depend on your event and also size of audience. If you're near a college, they are the best avenue for help, small classrooms and large rooms if needed. Plus the added larger bonus of usually having a good internet connection which is ideal for running global jam sessions. They also usually won't charge as they want their students to learn more. Offer to give a demo on bug triaging to the students to get the colle
<czajkowski>  
<czajkowski> Hotels may have function rooms these could be used for larger more formal days of talks, try and get these sponsored, point out X number of people in there for the day, and they will most likely eat and drink in there
<czajkowski>  
<czajkowski> don't be afraid to ask them to sponsor some food or drinks
<czajkowski> most will give you something, or at least a discount or deal
<czajkowski> I've written all of these down and will post afterwards if it helps.
<czajkowski> QUESTION: Who is a good point of contact when sending a note to the media to try and get coverage, what has worked for you?
<czajkowski> well I first try looking up the journalists in IT in maybe the newspapers or online jounrnals and getting a name
<czajkowski> if you have a name it's easier to follow up on and get feedback
<czajkowski> maybe they don't know about oss or you didn't give enough information in the opening letter to get their interest
<czajkowski>  
<czajkowski> What do to once it's been organised:
<czajkowski>  
<czajkowski> this is more of a check list
<czajkowski> if you['ve never ran a large event , don't worry, mistakes will happen, but as long as people have  agood day out, it'll be worth it
<czajkowski> Once you have the date and venue organised keep the reminders going, topic in irc channel, your loco website, create a wiki page for you events so you can keep track of them, and afterwards write up a list of things you would change or notes you've made from running the event.
<czajkowski> Remember all events can be improved on, there is no 1st event going to ever run 100% smoothly. Don't panic if something goes wrong. Have a back up plan, a back up speaker or someone you can rely on to get up and demo or talk about a topic if you need to fill a slot or while you wait on a speaker to arrive.
<czajkowski>  
<czajkowski> When running a larger event ( anything that involves more than going to the pub) things you need to do:
<czajkowski> like tonight I made a list
<czajkowski> it's what keeps me from going insane
<czajkowski> :)
<czajkowski> I'm a bit of a list fanatic, it's what works for me. Items get written down and crossed off literally! A new list is made and I work through what needs to be done. I like organising, that's me. I'm a tad bit obsessive about some things, I'll have my list done up, and saved somewhere online that I can check against to make sure things are being done, when they are done, they are moved elsewhere in the list to Completed 
<czajkowski> find something that works for you.
<czajkowski> o some simple check lists, they may seem very simple and common sense, but eh don't take simple things and common sense for granted when organising events!
<czajkowski> don't take on the whole event on your own
<czajkowski> we're a community
<czajkowski> lets put us to work and there will be members in your loco who excel at posters or writing articles
<czajkowski> uwe these people
<czajkowski> *use
<czajkowski>  Meet regularly! Email is not enough.
<czajkowski> Face to face meet ups are the only way, as you bounce ideas off one and another and come up with better ideas/solutions to problems.
<czajkowski> because in the past I've had the experience of this
<czajkowski> A useful tool I've learnt to do is if you do email people concerning the event, CC someone else on the committee so that if you get a date/time/venue or some detail off, there is hope that someone else will spot it and can be rectified, otherwise you could be organising something for September when the event locations organiser thinks it's in Augus
<czajkowski> which you can imagine leads to lots of heart failures :)
<czajkowski>  
<czajkowski> Advertise the event in as many locations as you can. Again depending on the event, but I would say hit colleges first, as many lectures, students may be interested, bonus if your conference is also located on the grounds, you can get college/staff mailing lists.
<czajkowski>  
<czajkowski> Final run up to the event, go through your check list, which should consist of a large Done/Completed list and there really should be no âTo Do's â left anywhere on it :)
<czajkowski> Have this done a week before hand to allow for things just cropping up!
<czajkowski> these would be for events other than pub/geeknics
<czajkowski>  
<czajkowski> Have the presenting laptop all set up with a separate login with all of the presentations on it.
<czajkowski>  
<czajkowski> Sticky point, dealing with speakers can sometimes be a lot of hassle, get all speakers to use the one laptop, it's set up and works with the projector. Unplugging and plugging in another one causes unnecessary time wasting for all those involved
<czajkowski>  
<czajkowski> Get all presentations a week in advance, I asked for them 2 days in advance and got all bar 2, one of which as the guy was travelling and I knew this. The other I got on the day of the event. In future I'd ask for them a week in advance, and if you don't get it, pull the person. Simple as, if one person can do it, so can everyone.
<czajkowski>  
<czajkowski> nothing worse than being in a talk and wanting to leave to go to the next one as it's run over
<czajkowski> Have a person sitting in the audience who will hold up a car with 10 minutes, 5 minutes and 1 minutes to go. It is necessary to keep time under control, and again some speakers will get the knickers in a twist at being told to shut up and get off the stage as the next speaker is due on.
<czajkowski> I've missed a few talks this way!
<czajkowski> If you are renting a venue give it back to the organisation the way you got it. It sounds simple, but you'd be amazed the way people leave their rubbish behind. Make sure everyone leaves with you, locks up and goes with you. If you leave folks behind you have no way of making sure the place is locked up and left in the correct order.
<czajkowski>  
<czajkowski> Sit back and enjoy the event. As I said, this is not a complete list, it's some thoughts and what's worked in the past for me, or I've learnt from the past events
<czajkowski> If anyone wants any help pm me or drop me an email czajkowski@ubuntu.com I'll try and help and give you some feedback.
<czajkowski> If LoCos are interested I'd love to see www.LoCo.ossbarcamp.com happen.
<czajkowski> Sorry I know I covered a lot
<czajkowski> but ready if anyone has any questions
<czajkowski> I have found by going to other groups events they'll promote mine. so going to a php event , they'll send a mail to their list about our event
<czajkowski> < akgraner> QUESTION:  What are the best tips and who/what corporate groups do you tend to seek funding from 1st
<czajkowski> yeah this can be the tricky one
<czajkowski> I've found that again getting a name, rather than info@company name to be wise
<czajkowski> the HR department I've rang on ocassions and asked them who would be best to contact and I usally get marketing and they will usually be very helpful
<czajkowski> rashsystems> did www.LoCo.ossbarcamp.com not work for anyone else?
<czajkowski> so I'd like to offer to help LoCos run their own ossbarcamp
<czajkowski> the site is there
<czajkowski> and would be great to see say northcarolina.ossbarcamp.com or rome.ossbarcamp.com take place
<czajkowski> I find if you name an event about a product/os it may not help when trying to get sponsorship
<czajkowski> the idea of getting presenters presentations before hand is to save time between switching pc's and set uo
<czajkowski> *up
<czajkowski> try and have them all on one desktop
<czajkowski> in a folder so they can just launch them
<czajkowski> 22:18 < aim1159> QUESTION: in russia we faced with the problem - people does not want to meet "unknown strangers" even if they do the same thing - wowing about ubuntu. How to deal  with such a problem?
<czajkowski> so how do you get people to come along
<czajkowski> we held out release party last week and a few showed up who'd never been active on irc or mailing lists
<czajkowski> they came because we did 2 events 1- dinner and 2 pub
<czajkowski> it's to try and find an event your loco will enjoy, not everyone wants to go to a pub
<czajkowski> so a pub quiz might be a way of getting people involved and also chatting to one another
<czajkowski> tonyyarusso> QUESTION:  Our latest event had a much worse male:female ratio than our group as a whole does.  Any idea why this may be and how to rectify it in the future?
<czajkowski> well that's going to depend on how many are active in your loco
<czajkowski> the event could be a deciding factor
<czajkowski> try to mix and match events
<czajkowski> don't stick to the same one
<czajkowski> try adn cater for your're loco
<czajkowski> I've started to use doodle.com
<czajkowski> create a poll
<czajkowski> put up sugestions on events
<czajkowski> 1 geeknic
<czajkowski> 2 quiz
<czajkowski> 3 talk
<czajkowski> let your loco decide
<czajkowski> get them participating
<czajkowski> it also means more involvement
<czajkowski>  
<czajkowski> re sponsorship make sure you thank them after the event
<czajkowski> send them photos
<czajkowski> and a thank you card
<czajkowski> they'll remember that the next time or even be willing to approach you to sponsor you again
<czajkowski> 22:25 < akgraner> QUESTION:  Do you find if people have owner in planning the event then they are more likely to promote and encourage attendance?  So would handing out specific  tasks be useful?
<czajkowski> for me I like to orgnaise
<czajkowski> but I know the loco needs more than my skill set
<czajkowski> I cannot do everything
<czajkowski> there are others in the loco who can do other work and we need them
<czajkowski> so you really should be encouraging your members to step up and help
<czajkowski>  
<czajkowski> they may find it daunting, so I'd suggest pairing them up.  buddy system
<czajkowski> there is no such thing as a bad orgnaiser!!!
<czajkowski> you need attendees
<czajkowski> and with that they need to participate
<czajkowski> so try a few types
<czajkowski> simple non geeky event ye can do as a goup, go bowing/catch a game
<czajkowski> cinema - find a nerdy movie and go :) in costume
<czajkowski> loads of choices
<czajkowski> events dont have to be release partys the whole time :)
<czajkowski>  
<czajkowski> after an event ,ask you loco membembers what they'd change, date/venue/time
<czajkowski>   
<czajkowski> meant to say, when you're advertising your event, if you don't have your blog on the planet, ask someone to post your article for you, before and after the event, let others know what you['re doing, it give people ideas on what they can do too
<czajkowski>  
<czajkowski> many people have families and weekend times are hard to give up
<czajkowski> try holding events where families can come along
<czajkowski> our geeknics were a great success here, wives came along with the kids and met others
<czajkowski>  
<czajkowski> any other questions?
<czajkowski>  
<czajkowski> Are any locos planning any specific events, they'd like to ask for advice on?
<czajkowski>   
<czajkowski> < saffronlee> QUESTION: how do you make meetings more firendly for women?
<czajkowski> Well I'm a female and never really had an issue with events being friendly. But, perhaps not every male or female wants to go to a pub the whole time, so vary your event. Ask the members in your loco what they would like to do
<czajkowski>  
<czajkowski>  Michelle_Qimo> QUESTION:  Anything you've done that you would advise *against*?
<czajkowski> in 5 years doing this....
<czajkowski> a lot!
<czajkowski> don't go out the night before if I'm getting up at 8am to run  a conferenfce!!
<czajkowski>  
<czajkowski> double check the venue with the venue owners, don't rely on someone else saying it's done
<czajkowski> we lost a large venue and 3 speakers one year
<czajkowski>  
<czajkowski> Have boot up cds on standby in case the machines you're using fails
<czajkowski>  
<czajkowski>  < Michelle_Qimo> we're working on a spouses group down here - so all the wives/partners/etc. feel safe
<czajkowski> that's a great idea
<czajkowski> and it worked well when the wives/partnes came to geeknic they met fellow non techy people and enjoyed a nice afternoon - remember to inculde the extended loco
<czajkowski>   
<czajkowski> 2:41 < tonyyarusso> SUGGESTION:  If running an installfest, have a local mirror of the package repositories - much less waiting for downloads, more doing!  (Learned from the  difference between our Jaunty and Karmic events)
<czajkowski> great idea
<czajkowski> also if runing an event, make sure there are no planned outtages :~(
<czajkowski> ideally I like to run my events in a college
<czajkowski> great size rooms
<czajkowski> students to take part and become part of the loco
<czajkowski> great internet bandwidth
<czajkowski>  
<czajkowski> as I'd never done this before I didnt know what to expect  so I wrote it all up as I was afraid I'd not be able to explain it http://cypher.skynet.ie/Openweek/
<czajkowski>  
<czajkowski> I'll send a mail out later on with it also for loco members and also again offer if locos want to run an ossbarcamp
<czajkowski>  
<czajkowski> remember do  enjoy any event no matter how small or big,
<czajkowski> < tonyyarusso> QUESTION:  What forms of advertisement seem to have the best ROI?
<czajkowski> IRC
<czajkowski> Mailing lists
<czajkowski> blogs - my blog is on a few plannets
<czajkowski> and then I also poke the national papers
<czajkowski> and the online e-magazines
<czajkowski> somethimes they will cover events
<czajkowski> other times no
<czajkowski> but if I let them know about it, there is a higher chance
<czajkowski> I also mail all of the 3rd level colleges and let their IT departments know about an event and if they have a computer society
<czajkowski>  
<czajkowski> thats how I got involved in this.
<czajkowski> also
<czajkowski> fossevents.org
<czajkowski> has a lot of oss events on it
<czajkowski> postering hasn't worked as well as I thought it would have worked
<czajkowski> perhaps there are too many out there over here
<czajkowski> but again
<czajkowski> try it for your area
<czajkowski> podcasts are also good, local and international ones (ubuntu-uk podcast)
<czajkowski> think that's it folks
<czajkowski> thanks for coming :)
<czajkowski> http://cypher.skynet.ie/Openweek/ link to notes
<jcastro> ok
<jcastro> thanks everyone for participating
<jcastro> we'll reconvene tomorrow at 1500UTC!
<MenZa> huzzah
<akgraner> woot woot woot...
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to Ubuntu Open Week! https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek || Session resume at 1500UTC || All questions go in #ubuntu-classroom-chat ||
<akgraner> :-)
<jcastro> I hope everyone had a good time today!
<effie_jayx> jcastro:  we did
<effie_jayx> :D
<Xiella> awesome stuff today
<neoandersen> what are you teaching here?
<MenZa> neoandersen: Nothing currently. See /topic :)
<Xubuntus_> Hello!
<Xubuntus_> Any idea how to setup Grub 2 with windows on the second harddrive? (I knew how to with Grub 0.xx).
<neoandersen> I don't when 15 00 UTC is...
<Sparckus> same as GMT
<Sparckus> UK time
<LutraMan> Hey, I'm having trouble installing ubuntu 9.10 on my computer, anyone can help?
<tonyyarusso> Sparckus: Except that GMT I think does DST, and UTC does not, right?  (Same right now, but not always true)
<joaopinto> LutraMan, the support channel is #ubuntu
<tonyyarusso> LutraMan: #ubuntu would be better for that
<Sparckus> UK changes to BST April (i think ) to october
<Sparckus> GMT at the moment
<ebel> tonyyarusso: GMT doesn't have DST./
<Sparckus> anyways gtg thanks to all the speakers :) was good
<tonyyarusso> ebel: no?  Allrighty.  but "UK time" still does at least.
<ebel> neoandersen: you can use http://www.timeanddate.com/ to figure out what time it is for you in your local time.
<ebel> tonyyarusso: yeah. The UK changes timezones between GMT (which is UTC+0) and BST (which is UTC+1 (or -1, can't remember))
<tonyyarusso> ebel: +1
<MenZa> +1, yeah.
<MenZa> which means, it's currently 11:11pm in the UK
<ebel> otherwise things like 01:30:00 GMT might refer to 2 points in time when the clocks change
<ebel> But "01:30:00 UK time" can refer to 2 points in time.
<jcastro> ausimage,  thanks for doing the logs!
<akgraner> there is this link for conversions http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/converter.html
<akgraner> and this one too  http://www.scc-ares-races.org/utcchart.html
<ebel> You can also enter "date -u" in the command line and it'll give you the time in UTC.
<ebel> you can compare this to the normal output of "date" to figure out what time it is.
 * Amaranth updates wiki with logs for the last two sessions
<junius_> HI need some help
<junius_> anyone there?
<junius_> anyone?
<SoftwareExplorer>  junius: #Ubuntu is a good place to get help
<junius_> no one's replying there
<junius_> :(
<SoftwareExplorer> I see
<popey> they are now
<neoandersen> ebel: Now here is 09:23pm then it seems it will be tomorrow: (Brazil - Distrito Federal)	Monday, November 2, 2009 at 1:00:00 PM	UTC-2 hours
<neoandersen> ebel: november 3...
<Amaranth> Alright, logs posted
<Amaranth> At least for the last 3 events, didn't check the earlier ones
<Amaranth> hmm, unless my browser decided to die...
<gregdicristofaro> hello,  I had a question that I was wondering if someone could answer for me.  I am a very new user of ubuntu, and I had installed 9.04.  Through that version, I had gotten CUPS to work allowing me to print from my macbook pro to the printer connected to the ubuntu box.  When I installed 9.10, I could no longer get CUPS to work.  When 9.10 installed, it asked me if I wished to replace my CUPS config file, is th
<tonyyarusso> gregdicristofaro: #ubuntu is the support channel, which means you're more likely to get an answer there.
#ubuntu-classroom 2009-11-03
<actionjunky> is anyone here?
<Xiella> now and then
<Xiella> i think the lectures are done for now, though
<pleia2> they'll be starting up again at 1500 UTC tomorrow :)
<obiwan__> hi!!
<nhaines> pleia2: weren't the sessions great today?  :D
<pleia2> nhaines: yes!
<Znupi> How are sessions held in here?
<Znupi> is the chat locked and only operators are allowed to speak while they hold sesions?
<pleia2> Znupi: this channel is reserved for the speaker, questions are posted in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<pleia2> we don't like to moderate this channel during the sessions, but sometimes have to
<Znupi> Ah, I see
<nhaines> pleia2: I noticed it was quiet here today.
<pleia2> nhaines: it was moderated :\
<Znupi> So what were today's sessions about?
<bethlynn> I am a speaker on Friday
<pleia2> UOW has become very popular, noise becomes a problem with hundreds of people
<bethlynn> unfortuntely I could not see the activity today
<nhaines> Znupi: check out the schedule!  :) https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
<pleia2> Znupi: the schedule is up here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
<Znupi> an, thanks!
<pleia2> bethlynn: shame! it was a great day :) the logs have been posted on the same page if you're interested
<pigphish> hello
<pigphish> anybody on?
<tonyyarusso> pigphish: yes, but nothing's happening right now.
<lmanuel> hi! how can i get a 1600x900 working resolution?
<pigphish> when do things happen/
<openweek8> salud@s Â¿que horarios se estan manejando para las charlas?
<jamesjedimaster_> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
<jamesjedimaster_> 15:00 UTC the first one
<openweek8> jamesjedimaster_ gracias voy a revisar
<JuanCarlosPaco> Hola / Hello
<JuanCarlosPaco> !foo
<ubot2> bar
<JuanCarlosPaco> :)
<JuanCarlosPaco> ok, have a nice day, i leave...
<gantis> Hello
<belliinator> hello
<syn-ack> hello
<Animagladius> Night
<Xiella> goodnight classroom
<hao_> \join quickly
<ScottK> hao_: /join, not \join
<sams> tell me the command to run check disk
<ScottK> sams: Support is in #ubuntu
<openweek1> my headphone is not working on ubuntu,i have acer laptop
<pupERaver> hello?
<pupERaver> i recently switched over to linux on the laptop and now both the wired network AND the wireless network refuse to work. I've tried quite a bit, switching settings in th ehopes that i'll get it working. My laptop is an HP Pavilion dv5 running Ubuntu Linux
<quietone> has it worked before in ubuntu, what version are you using?
<openweek1> my headphone is not working in ubuntu 9.04.ihave acer 5638 laptop
<quietone> I wish I could help with the headphones, as that is the only sound 'thing' that has consistently worked for me (8.04, 9.04, 9.10)
<Out_Cold> i
<Out_Cold> oops.. i've noticed about 75% of noob problems are sound
<Out_Cold> even with my fresh install i had flash sound errors
<quietone> I'd agree, it it were the the forums I would not have figured it out as quickly. (noob to ubuntu but used various unix 20 years ago, before children)
<pupERaver> this is a clean install from a verafied ISO
<Out_Cold> the trick is to google till either you find an answer or someone responds
<pupERaver> i tried intalling the OS 3 times now
<quietone> PupERaver, what version? 9.10?
<pupERaver> yes 9.10
<quietone> Outcold, I prefer to use, http://crunchbang.org/ubuntu-search-engine/
<Out_Cold> pupERaver, have you tried wicd?
<pupERaver> not familiar with that . what is wicd ?
<quietone> pupERaver, did it work well under a previous version?
<Out_Cold> quietone, that may work but i've had to use fixes for other distros on ubuntu
<pupERaver> it was a vista professional and got sick of the windows conformity
<Out_Cold> pupERaver, it's another network manager
<quietone> pupERaver: what fixes? ndiswrapper?
<pupERaver> OOh nice ill have to give that a try
<Out_Cold> what card and driver?
<pupERaver> nvidia network card with a broadcom . i thought during the install (fetch and extract firmware) was common
<quietone> pupERaver: I have seen items in the forum about broadcom and 9.10 but I haven't followed them
<Out_Cold> it may be a  broadcom issue, have you checked compatibility?
<pupERaver> no compatibility checks :(
<fiberfolly> QUESTION:  no one answering question in the #ubunto-classroom-chat room
<Out_Cold> i'm not there..
<Out_Cold> you should all ask in #ubuntu or #ubuntu+1 lol
<Out_Cold> maybe ask on the forums for someone else to verify
<pupERaver> okay , ill give that a shot
<pleia2> you'll want to ask support questions in #ubuntu
<pleia2> this channel is for classes :)
<pupERaver> thank you guys for the support
<pleia2> and we don't have another one until tomorrow at 1500 UTC
<fiberfolly> utc?
<fiberfolly> what is UTC?
<Out_Cold> its a shame i will be at work :(
<Out_Cold> google "UTC"
<fiberfolly> well, thanks.  I was really hoping for some help so I would not have to spend a year figuring it out...
<Out_Cold> it's universal time code which would have taken less time to google than it took me to write this
<fiberfolly> not if you are stuck with crappy windose to google with
<fiberfolly> i guess that makes it roughly 7 AM my time
<fiberfolly> windows sucks and you folks are not willing to help newbies... how nice
<Out_Cold> windows has nothing to do with google-ing.. other than IE which I highly recommend against using
<fiberfolly> using Chrome because firefox keeps crashing
<Out_Cold> it's not that we aren't willing to help. we don't hold your hand to define english
<Out_Cold> many of us "donate" time here
<fiberfolly> wha tis english to you is greek to a lot of people getting started
<fiberfolly> there is too much information for a person to know everything
<Out_Cold> sure but there are also many other communities in several languages
<fiberfolly> not asking for hand holding, just a little help
<Out_Cold> ask for help about ubuntu
<fiberfolly> well I speak English, you speak english
<fluffman> fiberfolly: you were asking about drivers for dell systems
<fiberfolly> yes i am fuffman
<fluffman> not necessary
<fiberfolly> fluffman
<fluffman> the Linux kernel - the core of Ubuntu - should have all of the drivers you need built in
<fiberfolly> not necessary what?
<fiberfolly> my wireless will not work
<fluffman> you won't find "Linux Drivers" on the dell website
<fiberfolly> i know
<fiberfolly> even though they do provide ubuntu as an option
<fiberfolly> dell sucks worse then Micorsoft
<fluffman> Ok, have you tried plugging an ethernet cable into your laptop
<fiberfolly> not yet
<fluffman> OK, do that, and if you can get online
<fluffman> go to System > Administration > hardware Drivers
<fiberfolly> in ubuntu, correct?
<fluffman> yes
<fiberfolly> okay, will have to try tomorrow morning, but I appreciate the suggestion
<fiberfolly> will that get me to what I need to get it to work
<fluffman> That will let you know if any 3rd party drivers are available, and then it will download and install for you
<fiberfolly> cool.  Thanks so much fluffman.  I greatly appreciate it
<fluffman> Once that's done, look for the little networking symbol near  the clock...left click on it to see your wireless network and connect
<fiberfolly> I will pass the help on some day, when I can actually help
<fluffman> :)
<fluffman> glad I could help
<z-itou16> yes that should do it. just in case, maybe this is not the case, make sure you have the universe repo active in your software sources
<z-itou16> but will all the step given by fluffman that should do the work
<ubuntunewbe> hey I am from Puerto Rico a little island in he caribean. using ubuntu 9.04 and 9.10
<openweek6> hello anyone there?
<azharBuntu> yes.. am here
<z-itou16> same here
<azharBuntu> hahaha
<openweek6> hai..all.
<openweek6> actually i have problems with empthy configuring a gtalk ccount
<openweek6> account;any ideas
<azharBuntu> hi openweek*
<z-itou16> whaat kind of problema you are facing
<z-itou16> please openweek6 keep in mind this is channel for ubuntuopenweek
<openweek6> sry....but i could not find an answer anywhere....
<z-itou16> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/
<z-itou16> hehe
<z-itou16> lets see
<z-itou16> what problem you are facking
<openweek6> it says network error
<z-itou16> anyother account you hace configured?
<openweek6> these are my account details
<z-itou16> does any other account connect?
<openweek6> actually m completely new with empathy;used pidgin before
<azharBuntu> openweek6: i ve a week experience with ubuntu. and ma sure i can't help you.  :)
<openweek6> encryption required ;checked
<openweek6> resource telepathy
<openweek6> server tlk.google.com
<openweek6> port 5223
<openweek6> use old ssl :checked
<azharBuntu> openweek6: r u ok with YM?
<openweek6> ym implies yahoo messenger?
<azharBuntu> i can gtalk but cant ym.. :(  yes ym=yahoo messenger
<z-itou16> ok
<z-itou16> try this
<openweek6> What..
<z-itou16> if you have any
<z-itou16> google talk acct setup
<openweek6> yeah i have.....
<z-itou16> go ahead and delete lets
<z-itou16> start from scratch
<z-itou16> now
<openweek6> yeah
<z-itou16> login id will be
<z-itou16> your  email
<openweek6> yeha
<z-itou16> put it
<z-itou16> and passwd too
<z-itou16> let us skip the security method
<z-itou16> so advance leave it is
<openweek6> then..
<z-itou16> enable it and try
<z-itou16> that how i ahve it set up
<openweek6> wait mtrying...
<z-itou16> sure
<openweek6> AND I HAVE ANOTHER PROBLEM
<openweek6> WHEN INSTALLING APPS
<openweek6> the ubuntu softwre centre says
<z-itou16> aja
<openweek6> Requires installation of untrusted packages  The action would require the installation of packages from not authenticated sources.
<openweek6> what did you mean by aja?
<z-itou16> ah sorry is that i am spanish speaker and we say "aja" is like "continue i am listening"
<z-itou16> sorry
<z-itou16> openweek6
<z-itou16> how it went
<z-itou16> ?
<openweek6> that said network error!
<z-itou16> weird
<openweek6> do you have a working account with it  ?
<z-itou16> yes
<openweek6> is it gtalk?
<z-itou16> in fact let try just now
<z-itou16> gtalk you mean google talk correct?
<openweek6> yeh
<openweek6> Anywya what about the second problem?
<z-itou16> does it give you any info about the pkgs it want to install?
<openweek6> nope...it was going f9 a day ago
<openweek6> now to install any app. it says this ...m on ubuntu 9.10
<openweek6> hey <z-itou16> you there?
<z-itou16> yes
<z-itou16> sorry i am searching something
<openweek6> ok
<z-itou16> i dont quite get the problem
<z-itou16> i do understand you but not he entire situation
<openweek6> i told na...
<z-itou16> have u tried to install any proprietary software or something
<z-itou16> ?
<openweek6> when i try to install anything this thing pops up:Requires installation of untrusted packages  The action would require the installation of packages from not authenticated sources.
<openweek6> i hve installed a lot of apps like qt designer,creator,netbeans etc
<z-itou16> ah ok but those are ok
<openweek6> ok means?
<z-itou16> open
<openweek6> so wht bout the problem
<z-itou16> but sure there is not any instruccion like what it want to install or something?
<openweek6> and do you hve ny idea about the sk mrk session?
<openweek6> yeah i select the application to installl.
<openweek6> then after selecting apply ..
<openweek6> it gives this crap!
<daretodream> Yo
<openweek6> no kind of such instruction
<z-itou16> geez
<z-itou16> :S
<daretodream> hows the weather...
<z-itou16> well this is no the right place to ask you
<z-itou16> to pull some of the logs
<z-itou16> and check if there is any other info
<openweek6> And about  the ask mark session.....
<openweek6> and could you tell me...what all could i learn here!!
<z-itou16> i will asume there is no broken pkg or anything like that
<daretodream> Never been here before, so i can just ask general question about 9.10 here?
<z-itou16> ask mark session
<daretodream> ah
<z-itou16> not sure whats that
<z-itou16> haha
<openweek6> general question like?
<z-itou16> hello daretodream
<openweek6> yeah ofcourse
<openweek6> i read it sumwer bout the open week
<z-itou16> openweek6 you can check here too
<z-itou16> AlanBell///openweek6: you would get a better answer if you asked in #ubuntu
<openweek6> where ?
<daretodream> oh, i posted my question already on Ubuntu Fourms its a question about memory but has nothin related to 9.10 i just stoped by here to see if i learn anything new in particular
<openweek6> <daretodrem>giv the question
<z-itou16> you can check that channel
<openweek6> hmm will try
<AlanBell> Mark Shuttleworth started the Ubuntu project and Canonical. He will be responding to questions later
<z-itou16> cuz remember
<z-itou16> this is channel is for
<z-itou16> ubuntu open week
<openweek6> I men when..would that be done?
<openweek6> Could you please tell me about the routine?
<openweek6> i too joined here 15 mins ago...
<AlanBell>  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
<openweek6> hey <z-itou 16 >wht all could i learn here in this open week
<AlanBell> sessions start at 1500
<daretodream> oh i recently bought corsair Dominator DDR2 1066 MHz PC2-8500 4GB 2x2GB 	 and was wondering if it would work with my Dell motherboard i put the specs up on the thread its just that i dont know if i would have to speficially modify voltage or anything like that
<AlanBell> which is in 6 hours
<openweek6> Will be there...Thank you!!
<z-itou16> well openweek6 if you check
<z-itou16> the wiki link alanbell provided
<openweek6> yeah ...
<z-itou16> you can see what you actually will be instruct during the sessions
<z-itou16> its not like wow you are gonna learn to build your own distro
<z-itou16> but it could be possible though
<z-itou16> but it all depends on how far you want to go
<z-itou16> so keep the head up
<openweek6> hmm thnks...actually the prob is  that the net speed here is less these times?
<z-itou16> google is the best friend to be honest
<openweek1_> hi
<openweek6> Hii
<openweek1_> is open week session started ?
<z-itou16> not yet
<openweek1_> should we discuss here or #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<openweek1_> ?
<openweek6> hey <z-itou16> what are you professionally as... student?
<daretodream> i don't think it makes to much of a diffrence
<z-itou16> during the session this should
<daretodream> eh tru
<z-itou16> only for the instructors or presenters
<z-itou16> and chat for chat :)
<z-itou16> i am student openweek6
<openweek6> ok my bad ;;;m sry
<z-itou16> haha no its ok
<z-itou16> i am so happy ubuntu and the opensource community is spreading
<openweek6> me too.
<openweek6> I love the spirit of opensource
<daretodream> Agree
<daretodream> its becoming HUGE
<z-itou16> yes
<z-itou16> and thats one of the reason i want to stick
<z-itou16> to ubuntu open week
<daretodream> and i have a feeling soon schools will start implementing courses/computers already installed with ubuntu/linux
<z-itou16> participate and eventually we can contribute to the community
<openweek6> thats a really cul idea....
<z-itou16> yea thats one of the projects i want to implement with some friend
<openweek6> I like programming and these days....i m working with qt
<z-itou16> wow openweek6 thats awesome
<z-itou16> !!
<daretodream> i want to learn programing XD i self-learned so far the basics of c++ and java
<openweek6> ??
<daretodream> sucks  i know XD
<openweek6> you have any experience with qt on ubuntu
<daretodream> <<?
<daretodream> me?
<openweek6> <dareto dream>it ws for <z-itou 16>
<openweek6> and Bbbye folks......gotta go
<daretodream> ahhh ok
<daretodream> take care
<z-itou16> take care
<z-itou16> hope you catch some of the sessions for this week
<openweek6> anyways what is xd
<z-itou16> and hope you find solutions to your problems
<openweek6> yeah i will...
<daretodream> see you guys, was intresting... ill be back! when is the next session? 1500utc? Got class in 2 more hours 4am here
<azharBuntu> anybody could help me connecting my pidgin to yahoo messenger?
<openweek6> yeah hope so...
<daretodream> should not be to hard
<openweek6> and will look for u there?
<openweek6> me too i have class.
<openweek6> I will be joining for the k mark session
<openweek6> Nice time with u all!!!!!!!!!!!!
<daretodream> see ya
<z-itou16> there is that much you have to setup
<z-itou16> username is for example me zgudino16
<openweek6> google the port settings for
<openweek6> yahoo on pidgin
<z-itou16> and pass is your normal mail/im passwd
<daretodream> i dont think yo would need to mess with port settings considering ubuntu uses iptables and generally allows that service?
<z-itou16> correct
<Xiella> so excited, can't wait for session to resume again :) need to sleep though
<daretodream> eh guess im not as slow as i seem
<Xiella> goodnight all
<daretodream> agree
<z-itou16> good night
<daretodream> night
<daretodream> im supposed to get off also! Haha
<z-itou16> haha we are off this week
<z-itou16> :D
<z-itou16> so no class no job
<z-itou16> its PATRIOT days
<openweek6> if u are behind a proxy
<openweek6> hey <z-itou 16 >i think configuring port settings ..would be difficult
<z-itou16> there is no need
<z-itou16> unless
<z-itou16> you are behind some firewal
<z-itou16> l
<openweek6> BBye
<z-itou16> iin that case you will want to use proxy
<azharBuntu> i tried to change the pager server to 66.163.181.173 but still cannot connect with YM.  I must hv missed something.
<azharBuntu> dc...
<z-itou16> pager for yahoo scsa.msg.yahoo.com
<z-itou16> this is the ip if i ping
<z-itou16> 68.180.217.19
<azharBuntu> ping scsa.msg.yahoo.com
<azharBuntu> oops..
<azharBuntu> 68.180.217.22
<azharBuntu> yeah.. a few addresses
<z-itou16> yeah that should be the inter-domain doing the maginc
<z-itou16> magic
<azharBuntu> but still.. fail to connect...
<z-itou16> really
<z-itou16> ehhh
<azharBuntu> i just dowmnloaded this 9.04 2 weeks ago
<z-itou16> what port you have for pager
<z-itou16> ?
<azharBuntu> the settings must be fresh
<azharBuntu> 5050
<z-itou16> thats right
<z-itou16> chat room
<z-itou16> US
<z-itou16> just in cae
<z-itou16> se
<z-itou16> go to proxy tab
<azharBuntu> google talk works fine without tweaking anything
<z-itou16> and select no rpoxy
<azharBuntu> i use no proxy
<z-itou16> ok
<azharBuntu> wiat
<azharBuntu> mann.. it was gnome,,,
<azharBuntu> did i change that
<z-itou16> ?
<azharBuntu> :)
<azharBuntu> it said account locked for unknown reason. logging to yahoo may fix this
<azharBuntu> just try on my win. no prob logging in
<z-itou16> :S
<azharBuntu> so.. it must be somewhere in this pc
<openweek3> Hello
<z-itou16> :S
<openweek3> is this ubuntu openweek?
<azharBuntu> can't see that 'face' here  :)
<z-itou16> yes
<z-itou16> but session have not start yet
<openweek3> ohok
<openweek3> when do they start?
<z-itou16> hey azharbuntu
<z-itou16> mm
<z-itou16> shoot not sure what to sugget
<z-itou16> suggest
<z-itou16> is this your only acct using pidgin?
<z-itou16> if it is you can try to delete the profile ".purple" and start again setting YM
<azharBuntu> nope.. irc now, gtalk working fine, and ym still diasbled
<azharBuntu> *disabled
<z-itou16> oh no
<z-itou16> then do not do it
<z-itou16> no ssl right?
<openweek3> does anyone know anything about getting ALC880 to work well with linux?
<azharBuntu> z-itou16: ssl?  i think i've heard that a few years back? can't seem to remember
<azharBuntu> :)
<z-itou16> ah yes in the advance tab for YM make sure there is no check mark where it says "use ssl for something"
<z-itou16> thats the last option there
<z-itou16> i am sure you dont have that enable
<z-itou16> but god dont know what else
<azharBuntu> can't see the 'ssl'
<z-itou16> :S
<z-itou16> i am running pidgin 2.6.3
<z-itou16> you are using the one that came with the system?
<azharBuntu> me 2.5.5
<z-itou16> i see
<azharBuntu> just downloaded the whole ubuntu 9.04
<azharBuntu> this is just a trial run... i'll try until the system crash.. then install a fresh copy  :)
<z-itou16> try change this paget
<z-itou16> cn.scs.msg.yahoo.com
<z-itou16> pager
<Carrie> hey everyone :) just curious how 9.10 is working out?
<gnomeye> just perfect
<z-itou16> yes now i can use 2 xserver session at the same time!
<z-itou16> so my sis and myself are running full compiz at the same time
<Carrie> any likes dislikes in particular? boot issues?
<gnomeye> no boot issues...
<z-itou16> same here, no boot issues
<gnomeye> dislike: Empathy and telepathy-butterfly
<azharBuntu> still fail..
<gnomeye> i installed pidgin again.. not happy bout empathy
<Carrie> why don't you like it
<z-itou16> hahaha
<gnomeye> too many crashes with telepathy-butterfly... i send messages, people didn't receive it...
<Carrie> :\
<gnomeye> if i hadn't MSN, i would still use empathy i think...
<azharBuntu> am happy as long as i could connect to YM... good for you withn all the choices
<z-itou16> one particular inconvenience i have is that i dont see plugins for empathy
<gnomeye> oh yes!
<z-itou16> i love music tracker from pidgin
<gnomeye> Plugins like music-tracker vor pidgin... too good this plugin
<z-itou16> i work CHARM!!
<z-itou16> it works
<gnomeye> NICE z-itou16 :D
<z-itou16> gnomeye do u know why mr mark and the ubuntu team decided to switch?
<openweek3> 9.10 is great
<gnomeye> voice and cam support?
<openweek3> now if only I could find a linux distro that works with my soundcard
<openweek3> |:-(
<z-itou16> openweek3 did the kernel did not load your audio card driver?
<openweek3> it loads the driver
<openweek3> i get some sound
<openweek3> but the volume is really low
<openweek3> and if i turn it up using alsamixer
<z-itou16> have you max all in the volume control menu
<openweek3> it gets very distorted
<z-itou16> :S
<z-itou16> hey gnomeye you are gonna laugh at this
<z-itou16> but
<z-itou16> in my bo
<z-itou16> box
<gnomeye> openweek3: what sc have u got?
<openweek3> same happens in (.04, opensuse, vista and 7 :-(
<z-itou16> the audio and camera thing are like grey out
<z-itou16> :(
<openweek3> ALc 880 based
<openweek3> compaq onboard
<gnomeye> lol
<gnomeye> lol z-itou16
<openweek3> it works great in xp
<gnomeye> i don't need this cam/voice support thing... if i want to call my friends over the world and see them i use skype. it works just fine.
<openweek3> ntegrated High Definition audio      * Realtek ALC 880 chipset     * Supports up to 8 audio channels     * Dolby Pro Logic II compatible  Dolby 5.1
<z-itou16> thats right gnomeye
<openweek3> it's msi ms 7174 mobo
<openweek3> intel 910GE chipset
<gnomeye> openweek3: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/254505 --> Seems to be a problem since 6.xx ...
<openweek3> i think i tried changing that in alsabase.conf in 9.04
<openweek3> but i heard there isnt one in 9.10
<openweek3> (alsabase.conf that is)
<openweek3> i dont thing it worked either :S
<gnomeye> there isn't a alsabase.conf in 9.10? /etc/modprobe.d/alsa-base.conf
<z-itou16> guys take care brb later
 * jasonjang is back (gone 21:57:40)
<azharBuntu> gtg bye
<pigphish> hello anybody on?
<demolition49_> hell there, im wondering if anybody can tell me how to map a network drive?
<pigphish> windows?
<demolition49_> no ubuntu
<pigphish> a drive shared on a windows machine i mean?
<pigphish> or shared from ubuntu
<demolition49_> yeah
<demolition49_> windows
<demolition49_> its on the network server
<pigphish> in nautilus type
<pigphish> smb://servername/sharename
<demolition49_> nautilus?
<pigphish> are you using gnome or kde
<pigphish> ?
<demolition49_> using ubuntu 9.10 not sure what that is tbh
<pigphish> ahhh ok
<pigphish> your interface is probably gnome then
<pigphish> do you see
<demolition49_> no
<pigphish> in ap applications
<pigphish> applications menu in top right
<pigphish> nautilus is the file browser
<sebsebseb> pigphish:   demolition49_   #ubuntu is the support channel
<pigphish> what is this channel? it says classroom
<demolition49_> yeah?
<demolition49_> sebsebseb: isnt this the classroom? im being taught?
<sebsebseb> pigphish:  demolition49_  go on the link in the topic
<z-itou16> pigfish try this link
<z-itou16> http://opensuse.swerdna.org/susesambacifs.html
<z-itou16> shoot
<demolition49_> im still stuck with finding nautilus
<z-itou16> sorry that link is for demolition49
<z-itou16> http://opensuse.swerdna.org/susesambacifs.html
<sebsebseb> demolition49_: This room is used for  Ubuntu Developer Week and  Ubuntu Open Week and such
<demolition49_> ok
<demolition49_> ill go to support
<demolition49_> z-itou16: thankyou
<demolition49_> pigphish: thankyou
<pigphish> may i ask what session
<sebsebseb> pigphish: time table here:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
<jasonjang>  /msg NickServ identify password
<openweek6> hello all
<openweek6> anyone out there
<openweek6> anyone knows abt ask mark session
<jpds> openweek6: It's tomorrow.
<openweek3> hey
<openweek3> PLease tell me fast abt ask mark session
<openweek8> anyone out tehre
<AlanBell> openweek* it is in 27 hours time
<ooooo> Hi
<WiL_> hello all!
<ikt> hello WiL_ :)
<WiL_> hey ikt, how are you?
<ikt> I'm good, finally setup my dns correctly, how are you?
<WiL_> I am new to the ubuntu or linux group and OS now.
<WiL_> figuring out how to us linux 9.10
<ikt> That's cool, ubuntuforums.org has tons (and tons and tons) of info
<WiL_> but simething i was trying to figure out which i have not found yet was how to down load firefox in a nother language for linux...since I know ubuntu already have it .
<ikt> Good question
<WiL_> hehe yep.
<vcalvo> hello
<nameiner> WiL_: I think there are language packs in the repositories
<WiL_> I have tried to redownload FF but then it does not put it on the computer like i think it should in windows but i need to start to get out of the windows mind set heheh
<WiL_> really nameiner....cool ...now i have to figure out how to get there and get them out heheheh
<ikt> yeah, we don't do download.com style :P
<ikt> If you head to: System > Admin > Synaptic Package Manager
<WiL_> ok
<ikt> Actually under Admin it has Language Support
<WiL_> I just added kde but ...
<ikt> You are running kubuntu?
<WiL_> i am running gnome now but i can switch between kde and gnome.
<ikt> Doesn't matter, I think this is what you want anyway:
<ikt> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=212310
<WiL_> thanks ikt I will give this a try.
<ikt> hope it works :)
<WiL_> now all i have to do is get ride of windows  of the system completely.
<nameiner> WiL_: well, there used to be packs, now I can only find some for thunderbird but there are translation packages for gnome and kde, try searching for "locale"
<WiL_> ok nameiner thanks
<ikt>  <WiL_> now all i have to do is get ride of windows  of the system completely. <- transition slowly young padawan :)
<WiL_> hahah yes yes ikt...
<ikt> :)
<Luke> In 9.10 I have digital spdif output working but it only offers me stereo sound output, does anyone know how I can enable multichannel sound?
<Roy__> hello
<ikt> Roy__: hello
<ZachK_> what up team?
<Sertse> 30min on my watch?
<pleia2> about that, yes
<jcastro> whoo hoo!
<jcastro> 10 minutes everyone!
<gnomeye> jo
<thiebaude> hi jcastro
<IdleOne> Morning
 * IdleOne puts a shinny red apple on the desk
<thiebaude> im ready
<guillaume> hi guys
 * Grantbow waves
<guillaume> Anyone has got a problem with an external hard drive that suddendly becomes slow to transfer data. about 1Mo/seconde when it use to be really fast with 9.04
<jcastro> bfiller, is it just you or do you have others?
<pleia2> guillaume: you'll want to head to #ubuntu for support questions
<thiebaude> guillaume, #ubuntu might help
<bfiller> jcastro: paulliu will be helping out as well
<bfiller> paulliu: are you there?
<jcastro> We'll start in ~5 minutes
<pleia2> oh, good job jcastro
<pleia2> :)
<jcastro> hah
<guillaume> ok thx
<jcastro> let's try that guy
* jcastro changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to Ubuntu Open Week! https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek || Session: Ubuntu Moblin Remix || All questions go in #ubuntu-classroom-chat |
<paulliu1> bfiller: yes.
<jcastro> ok, looks like we have 245 people already!
<pleia2> no pressure :)
<jcastro> I'm going to go ahead and moderate the channel now, if you have questions, please ask them in #ubuntu--classroom-chat
* akgraner changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: elcome to Ubuntu Open Week! https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek || Current Session: Ubuntu Moblin Remix - Bill Filler and Crew | All questions go in #ubuntu-classroom-chat ||
<guillaume> #ubuntu
<thiebaude> guillaume, yes
<jcastro> and preface them with QUESTION: so we don't miss them
<guillaume> thiebaude, how do I get there??
<guillaume> i m really bad with irc
<gnomeye> write: /join #ubuntu
<guillaume> cheers
<jcastro> ok bfiller and paulliu1, please introduce yourselves and take it away!
<bfiller> ok
<bfiller> Hi, my name is Bill Filler and I'm an Engineering Manager in Canonical's OEM Services Group. We work on custom versions of Ubuntu for netbooks and other devices.
<bfiller> I'll be joined by Software Engineer Paul Liu, also a member of the OEM Services Group. Paul did much of the packaging of Moblin for the Karmic release.
<bfiller> We'll be discussing Ubuntu Moblin Remix and will be basing the presentation off of the wiki page at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/UbuntuMoblinRemix. So you can follow along looking at that page.
<bfiller> As I go through this presentation questions may arise. Preceed your question with the word QUESTION to gain a moderator's attention.  Copy your questions into #ubuntu-classroom-chat, and we'll do our best to answer them at the end of the presentation.
<bfiller> ok, lets get started then
<bfiller> What is Moblin?
<bfiller> Moblin is a major initiative launched by Intel targeting the netbook market. Intel is the upstream and has developed some very appealing code for Moblin and it has gathered lots of interest in the market and community.
<bfiller> Moblin is not a distribution itself (but does provide a "reference" implementation based on Fedora), but instead relies on OSV's (like Canonical and others) to support, package and ship Moblin on their distributions.
<bfiller> So Canonical decided to release a version of Moblin running on Ubuntu (Ubuntu Moblin Remix) such that we could give users the freedom to try out Moblin on our great platform that they know and love
<bfiller> that is what Ubuntu Moblin Remix in Karmic is
<bfiller> Lets talk in detail about Ubuntu Moblin Remix release
<bfiller> Ubuntu Moblin Remix is the Moblin 2.1 preview release running on Ubuntu 9.10
<bfiller> It is developer focused, as based on an "preview" (i.e. not final) version of Moblin
<bfiller> Moblin 2.1 final release will be out any day now but was not done in time for inclusion in Karmic
<bfiller> Moblin's rpms were converted to debian packages, lots of that work was done by paulliu1 and others at Canonical
<bfiller> Some packages in made it to "universe" for Karmic, others in PPA https://edge.launchpad.net/~moblin/+archive/ppa
<bfiller> Ubuntu Moblin Remix image available for download here: http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-moblin-remix/releases/karmic/release/ubuntu-moblin-remix-9.10-moblin-remix-i386.iso
<bfiller> Bug tracking: https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-moblin-remix
<bfiller> and there are forums as well for questions at http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=376
<bfiller> now we can look at some of the Moblin components and UI screenshots
<bfiller> and describe a bit about each
<bfiller> (please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/UbuntuMoblinRemix)
<bfiller> lets start with the Moblin toolbar
<bfiller> it is the heart of the moblin interface and is the panel at the top of the screen
<bfiller> it acts as the launching point for most activities
<bfiller> starting with myzones, the button to the top-left
<bfiller> myzones is the main home screen. Sections for calendar entries, favorites, recent docs, tweats from twitter
<bfiller> it dynamically updates as tweets come in and documents are open
<bfiller> it contains a "quick launch" section on bottom left for launch your favorite applications
<bfiller> next in the panel is the status panel
<bfiller> which shows your current social networking/im status and allows you to change it
<bfiller> empathy is the default IM client moblin
<bfiller> next is the People panel
<bfiller> it shows a user's friends from Empathy and allows you to initiate chat from this panel
<bfiller> it shows pictures of friends, etc..
<bfiller> next is Internet panel
<bfiller> which allows you to quickly launch/search web pages and view open tabs and pinned pages
<bfiller> it's integrated with moblin web browser which I will describe later
<bfiller> then comes the Media panel
<bfiller> the media panel allows quick launch/search of recently opened media files, playqueue display
<bfiller> it is integrated with moblin media player UI as well
<bfiller> Pasteboard is next
<bfiller> self explanatory :)
<bfiller> Then comes the Applications tab
<bfiller> it is essentially the launcher panel, where user's select installed applications to launch
<bfiller> it is searchable which is very nice, and apps can be pinned as favorites from here which make them show up in the myzones space
<bfiller> the Zones switcher comes next
<bfiller> zone switcher shows active windows in all the zones (equivalent to workspaces)
<bfiller> ok
<bfiller> Moblin uses mutter as the window manager
<bfiller> which is a clutter-enabled version of metacity window manager
<bfiller> each application window in moblin is opened in it's own zone (workspace) and the zone switcher (activated by alt-tab) allows you to switch
<bfiller> Next on the toolbar comes the system tray area
<bfiller> which shows typical system type icons, like power, sound and networking
<bfiller> of interest is the networking panel, called carrick
<bfiller> (see screenshot)
<bfiller> it talks to connman Connection Manager (i.e. NOT Network Manager)
<bfiller> and has support for wired, wifi, 3G (in Moblin 2.1) and Wimax
<bfiller> ok moving on, Moblin provides a couple of applications which Intel wrote
<bfiller> moblin web browser and moblin media player
<bfiller> moblin web browser uses mozembed with clutter wrapper (clutter-mozembed), moving to Firefox 3.5 in Moblin 2.1
<bfiller> the version in Ubuntu Moblin Remix is not the Firefox 3.5 version but the embedded mozilla clutter version
<bfiller> the current version supports flash, plugins etc but is not as robust as standard Firefox 3.5
<bfiller> Moblin Media Player - clutter based media player, talks to gstreamer back-end
<bfiller> is a library in that you can add music, videos and photos
<bfiller> other Moblin distros may include other media players (like banshee), UMR includes moblin media player only
<bfiller> Moving on to other key components in Moblin stack
<bfiller> I briefly mentioned Mutter
<bfiller> Mutter is a clutter enabled window manager, Moblin Toolbar is an example of a mutter plugin
<bfiller> Clutter btw is key to the moblin system
<bfiller> it's a library that provides GL functionality for the UI
<bfiller> Moblin uses nbtk (netbook toolkit) as a widget library so to speak on top of Clutter
<bfiller> Clutter provides the ability for all the fancy animations and effect which are done so well in Moblin UI
<bfiller> mojito  is a daemon and API for social networking
<bfiller> it's used by myzones, people and status panels to talk to different backends
<bfiller> bognor-regis is the media playback daemon used by moblin media player
<bfiller> and bickley is the media meta-data engine used by the media player as well
<bfiller> I'm sure I'm missing some, but those are the important Moblin components that come to mind
<bfiller> ok, next topic
<bfiller> how are are Ubuntu Moblin Remix and Ubuntu Netbook Remix different?
<bfiller> Ubuntu Netbook Remix was developed by Canonical well before Moblin. Canonical continues to develop and support UNR going forward. We are testing and supporting many hardware models out of the box with UNR and will continue to develop UNR past Karmic.
<bfiller> UNR is quite popular, intuitive and well integrated in our platform.
<bfiller> some key points
<bfiller> about UNR
<bfiller> UNR is well integrated with the Ubuntu platform (gnome, Ubuntu One, notifications, etc..)
<bfiller> UNR user interface is straight forward, simple to use
<bfiller> UNR has been shipping commercially for over 1 year, it's well tested and proven
<bfiller> some folks are confused which to use Moblin Remix or UNR
<bfiller> we view Moblin Remix as a developer's version and should be used as such
<bfiller> UNR on the other hand is a fully functional, tested release
<bfiller> Canonical wanted to give people the choice to play with both on our platform
<bfiller> hence doing Moblin Remix
<bfiller> next topic
<bfiller> What vendors are shipping Ubuntu Moblin?
<bfiller> to date, Dell Mini 10v is shipping with a 9.04 (Jaunty) based Moblin
<bfiller> this used the Moblin 2.0 release (not 2.1)
<bfiller> Dell has made the image available for download: Available for download here: http://en.community.dell.com/wikis/linux/ubuntu-9-04-moblin-remix-developer-edition.aspx
<bfiller> ok last topic before we get to questions
<bfiller> How do I get more information about Moblin?
<bfiller> Intel upstream for Moblin at http://www.moblin.org
<bfiller> Bugtracking http://bugzilla.moblin.org
<bfiller> #moblin on freenode
<bfiller> Intel you'll see releases a "reference" implementation of Moblin based on Fedora. This is availabe for download from moblin.org
<bfiller> that's all for the presentation, I'll start looking at the questions now..
<bfiller> Amaranth:QUESTION: Moblin specifies LSB-style RPMs as the way to distribute 3rd party software, doesn't it? How is that being handled?
<bfiller> Amaranth: we repackage as debian packages and push into debian/ubuntu or ppa
<bfiller> erUSUL: QUESTION: media playback is all gstreamer based ?
<bfiller> erUSUL: in Moblin Remix, yes it's all gstreamer based
<bfiller> erUSUL: I believe Moblin may be releasing some sort of helix support in the future
<bfiller> <lifer999> Question: Does UMR use X?  Is the UI built on Gnome?
<bfiller> lifer999: UMR does use X
<bfiller> lifer999: UI is built on clutter and mutter, mutter-plugins
<bfiller> lifer999: but there are still many gnome components installed, but not the traditional gnome panels you are used to seeing in ubuntu
<bfiller> <erUSUL> QUESTION: what is the position of ubuntu devs regarding NetworkManager vs ConMan ?
<bfiller> erUSUL: in Moblin Remix we tried to be true to what is provided by Intel in their Moblin distribution
<bfiller> erUSUL: and Moblin uses Connman by default so that is what we provided
<bfiller> erUSUL: I'll say connman has come a long way since the beginning of Moblin and is getting quite good :)
<bfiller> erUSUL: network manager is still the default for all other Ubuntu release (desktop, UNR, etc..)
<bfiller> <erUSUL> QUESTION: will the browser migrate to webkit ??
<bfiller> erUSUL: not that I know of, but is migrating to firefox 3.5 themed for Moblin
<bfiller> <AlanBell> QUESTION: what should applications developers do (or avoid doing) to make sure applications targetted to the regular Ubuntu desktop also work on Moblin?
<bfiller> AlanBell: good question
<bfiller> AlanBell: I believe Moblin will be releasing (or has released) and SDK
<bfiller> AlanBell: but in general most Ubuntu apps work fine in moblin
<bfiller> AlanBell: just beware of using newer libraries that may be in one vs. the other (like a newer clutter or something like that)
<bfiller> paulliu1: any comments from you on this question?
<paulliu1> bfiller: Most GTK+ and QT applications works fine. I just met some resolution problems. Resize window not working good in mutter.
<paulliu1> bfiller: But it's not related to moblin.
<bfiller> <AlanBell> QUESTION: can you comment on that Intel/Microsoft Silverlight on Moblin announcement? Does that have any relevance to UMR?
<bfiller> AlanBell: don't know much about this, but can tell you the silverlight stuff is not in UMR
<bfiller> AlanBell: we will only ship components that are open-source in our community verison of UMR
<bfiller> <stesind> QUESTION: will normal gtk applications run in Moblin?
<bfiller> stefanlsd: yes
<bfiller> <erUSUL> QUESTON: can you expand on the description of mojito ?
<bfiller> paulliu1: I'll let you take this one
<paulliu1> erUSUL: Mojito is a services which manage social services. moblin-panel-myzone will read data from mojito services and display the content (eg. from twitter).
<paulliu1> erUSUL: Developer can use libmojito-dev to develop their own plugins.
<paulliu1> erUSUL: So it's not hard to add Yahoo 360 blog services into mojito.
<bfiller> erUSUL: I believe mojito also supports facebook, lastfm and others
<bfiller> <lifer999> QUESTION: Any long-term plans to merge UNR and UMR?
<paulliu1> erUSUL: Currently mojito supports facebook, lastfm, twitter, digg, and flickr.
<bfiller> lifer999: don't think so
<bfiller> lifer999: they are both on different paths/codebases so I think it's doubtful, but that's just my opinion
<bfiller> <erUSUL> QUESTION: How usable is upstream fedora based moblin for day to day use ?
<bfiller> erUSUL: I use it as a reference only, so not sure how robust it is
<bfiller> erUSUL: but I expect it works ok for personal use
<bfiller> <Pres-Gas> QUESTION: Will moblin support enterprise grade wireless at some point or is there a way to have moblin use NM?
<bfiller> Pres-Gas: good question
<bfiller> Pres-Gas: moblin can use Network Manager instead of connman
<bfiller> Pres-Gas: you just need the network-manager-netbook UI, which is the moblin UI toolbar plugin that talks to network manager
<bfiller> Pres-Gas: in fact network-manager-netbook is in our PPA but failing to build :) So if someone wants to fix it that would be great :)
<bfiller> Pres-Gas: ppa is here: https://edge.launchpad.net/~moblin/+archive/ppa/
<bfiller> Pres-Gas: it actually works really well
<bfiller> <keffie_jayx> QUESTION: Is installing propietary hardware drivers as easy as in Ubuntu?
<bfiller> keffie_jayx: yes, jockey-gtk is installed but you'll need to manually run it as there is no gnome-panel to show the notification icon :)
<bfiller> keffie_jayx: but should work just fine
<bfiller> <lifer999> QUESTION: What's your opinion of ChromeOS?
<bfiller> lifer999: that's for a different day :)
<bfiller> <erUSUL> QUESTION: what is the situation regarding the infamous GMA500 graphic driver regarding UMR ?
<bfiller> erUSUL: oh, the poulsbo (:
<bfiller> erUSUL: there is no pouslbo driver for karmic so it's not supported, but I've heard Intel will be releasing a driver in the future (hopefully open source) that will make it work
<bfiller> erUSUL: see http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=NzY2Mg
<bfiller> just a few minutes left, any other questions?
<bfiller> ok, I guess that's a wrap! Thanks everybody.
<Amaranth> thanks bfiller and paulliu1
<bfiller> Amaranth: you're welcome!
<Amaranth> next up is emmajane with Writing a book
* akgraner changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to Ubuntu Open Week! https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek || Current Session: Writing a book - emmajane  | All questions go in #ubuntu-classroom-chat ||
<emmajane> is that my queue to go? :)
<akgraner> Take it away emmajane :-)
<emmajane> Excellent!
<emmajane> Hello and welcome to my session on Writing a Book: A Tour of Ubuntu for Aspiring Authors. As always, I'm very excited to get the chance to talk about documentation. Thanks to all the folks who made this week happen and especially to jcastro and akgraner!
<emmajane> (and also to Amaranth for doing the intros)
<emmajane> I'm going to cover main three topics today: (1) So you think you want to write a book?, (2) Distribution and (3) my Toolkit. I hope you'll find the information useful. Please add your questions in the #ubuntu-classroom-chat channel and I'll do my best to answer everyone's questions.
<emmajane> Topic 1/3: So you think you want to write a book?
<emmajane> With the success of Front End Drupal I've had a lot of people telling me they too have a great idea for a book. Fantastic! The world needs more books. But what is your motivation for writing this book?
<emmajane> Are you writing it for you because you have to get something off your chest? Or are you writing a book because you think it will sell?
<emmajane> These are very different motivations and it's important to know which one is yours before you start.
<emmajane> If you're writing for you, have at it! These books often include genres like memoirs, fiction and more "personal" accounts of things. They don't worry too much about "will people buy this" so much as, "do these characters have integrity?" Of course every author will fret about their books and whether or not anyone will like it.
<emmajane> (Trust me I know)
<emmajane> Writing a book that you want to sell. I'll assume that most people here are interested in writing some kind of "tech" book (or at least non-fiction)....
<emmajane> If you are writing to sell it is absolutely critical that you do some market research first.
<emmajane> Some of the things you will need to know are:
<emmajane> (1) who are your competitors in this field? Are there already books on this topic? How well are they selling? (Check their Amazon rank to get a general idea of this.)
<emmajane> (2) What does the market think of your competitors? Look for reviews about the books that have been written. Does the audience think that a certain topic was missed in the book? or covered poorly or incorrectly? Find out what people think is missing from what is already written.
<emmajane> (3) If there are no books on the topic, find out if there really is an audience. Just because a lot of people are interested in acoustic heavy metal, it doesn't mean they'll actually buy a book on the topic. Is your audience a buying audience?
<emmajane> As you define the scope of your book, and your target audience, you will begin to develop your outline of topics that are important enough for you to spend hundreds of hours working on...
<emmajane> Yes: hundreds of hours.
<emmajane> By the time you've written your book, edited your book, and marketed your book you will have spent at least three hours for every page of text. I wrote approximately 290 pages of Front End Drupal. (3x290=870 hours) That doesn't include the time my reviewers spent on the book, the graphic designer, the indexer, and the marketing team.
<emmajane> I know it seems like a glamorous life to be an author, but it's a lot of work!
<emmajane> So do you STILL think you want to write a book? :)
<emmajane> I'm going to pause here and see if there are any questions in #ubunut-classroom-chat
<emmajane> Is anyone here thinking about writing a book?
<emmajane> (or maybe not anymore? ;) )
<emmajane> Excellent! Both hao and jledbetter are (still) thinking about writing a book. :)
<emmajane> hao, has a very specific topic in mind, which is great! It's writing an introduction of ubuntu linux in Chinese
<emmajane> <stesind> QUESTION: how could you make a living from writing a tech book? I mean it's not Harry Potter.
<emmajane> Short answer? You can't.
<emmajane> Generally technical authors consider their books to be very expensive business cards which get them more consulting work.
<emmajane> some authors will put out one new book a year and plan to retire on their royalties. But no one that i know earns a living JUST from technical writing of books.
<emmajane> There's also magazine articles and other forms of paid writing...
<emmajane> <rufong> QUESTION:has voice-recognition soft, made true ghostwriting possible?
<emmajane> Lots of authors say their book instead of writing it.
<emmajane> I don'tknow that voice recognition software is worth the hassle of getting it trained to your voice. Some folks have excellent skills and make it work; others simply hire someone to transcribe the audio tapes.
<emmajane> Ok. I'm going to move on to the next topic...
<emmajane> Let's take a look at some of the different business and publishing models that are available today...
<emmajane> Topic 2/3: Distribution
<emmajane> There are essentially two ways to put your book in front of an audience: by having someone else "publish" your book; or by publishing your own book. They both have advantages and disadvantages. Let's take a look at those now.
<emmajane> First I'll speak to working with a publisher. I was incredibly lucky to get a wonderful publisher on my first book contract. With that said, what I got was essentially industry standard. That means: 10% of net sales and I do not retain my copyright.
<emmajane> 10% of net means that when Amazon puts the very heavy discounts onto the book, I get less money. Generally my share is less than $2 for every book sold (even though the book retails for $40).
<emmajane> And I don't keep my copyright.
<emmajane> Sounds sort of crappy, right? Well... there are HUGE benefits to working with a large publisher:
<emmajane> (1) They already have a distribution network that is going to get your book onto bookshelves all over the world. Front End Drupal sales are highest in the US, but they have also sold thousands of copies internationally.
<emmajane> (2) The publisher is INCREDIBLY motivated to get your book into as many hands as possible. They will send out free review copies on your behalf to anyone that you think should have a copy. Although I'm not sure what the ratio is, I bet for every free review copy that gets mailed out, there are hundreds of sales.
<emmajane> (3) The publisher has the in-house resources to get your book into as many formats as possible. Front End Drupal is available in print, as a PDF, by subscription in Safari Readers Library (same as the O'Reilly books), as a Kindle book and it's being translated into other languages (which I will also get royalties from).
<emmajane> So on the one hand I give up some of the freedoms that I might have, but on the other hand, I have a publishing house that's very motivated to sell my book. Not all publishers are this motivated. You will need to do your research.
<emmajane> A note on copyright: while the publisher does retain copyright... I don't have a problem with this. They are paying me for my work and we are in a business relationship to make money. This is like your boss owning your copyright for the work you do on their time.
<emmajane> (or many software projects which owning your volunteer contributions... check the fine print if you don't believe me. ;) )
<emmajane> The ADVANTAGE to this is that they have the pockets to chase down copyright infringement.
<emmajane> Some authors ask for copyright, or what an alternative license. That's great too. But for a technical reference book with a shelf life of no more than two years... I don't really care if the publisher wants to retain full rights. The content is almost out of date as soon as it hits the printer. You need to make your own decisions on this.
<emmajane> So let's pretend you want to self publish...
<emmajane> You get to make all the rules about the license and distribution and format of the book. But ... you also have to do all the work.
<emmajane> I think it makes sense to self publish when there is a very small market, or if you are trying new ideas and want to be able to do iterative development on your manuscript. In addition to Front End Drupal I have also published two books on my own (which are available as CC-licensed work from emmajane.net). I have a kit on email marketing that is available for sale from HICK Tech as well.
<emmajane> I also have a few articles and books which are GNU FDL through the Linux Documentation Project (www.tldp.org).
<emmajane> Just because you choose to work with a publisher for some of your work, doesn't mean that you are limited to that relationship. My publisher does, however, know about all the work that I put out. I feel it's very important to maintain this relationship because of the non-compete clause in my contract with them.
<emmajane> There have been a few questions about licensing in #ubuntu-classroom-chat. Licensing is a big topic so I'm going to break here and let people ask those questions if they have them. The most important part about licensing is your freedom to choose what is most appropriate for each of your projects. What's right for me, may not be right for you.
<emmajane> <IdleOne> QUESTION any follow up book to Front End Drupal would have to go through the publisher first, if they chose to publish then you would be bound by the non-compete clause?
<emmajane> With my publisher I have a written contract which states I will not produce anything in print which will compete with the sales of Front End Drupal (theming of Drupal, version 6).
<emmajane> I also have an excellent relationship with my publisher and choose to give them right of first refusal on future projects which I believe are relevant to their market and which they can distribute better than I can.
<emmajane> some things aren't "big enough" or "developed enough" for me to take to them as a book project. e.g. my ebook on email marketing is only 40 pages.
<emmajane> <IdleOne> emmajane: ok. the publisher chose not to go with the second book, you are free to self-publish?
<emmajane> For any book on Drupal I would not choose to self-publish.
<emmajane> What a traditional publisher can do for me is far greater than what I can do on my own.
<emmajane> If I wanted to put out a mini book with more advanced topics (or more beginner topics) which does not compete with the sales of FED, I'm free to do so.
<emmajane> Any other questions about licensing? I know there was a question about whether the GNU FDL would be covered, but I'm not sure what the question was?
 * emmajane pauses just in case people are typing their questions...
<emmajane> <hao> QUESTION: about GNU FDL, this is the license I found on wikipedia. So do you consider using mediawiki a great way to write a book with lots of people?
<emmajane> The notion of authorship and collaboration is very very interesting.
<emmajane> When I write in collaboration with others I generally "hide" my voice and allow others to edit it. In this case the free-est possible license is the best one.
<emmajane> GNU FDL has limitations that are good for "book" books (e.g. restrictions on keeping the front matter (which is the copyright stuff) intact), but I think it's less relevant for non-linear texts such as Wikis.
<emmajane> FLOSS Manuals is another project that focuses on collaborative writing.
<emmajane> I think they're using GPL?
<emmajane> so that they can mix with code as well.
<emmajane> collaborative writing can be wonderful, but I think one of the most interesting and engaging parts of a book is the voice the author brings to it.
<emmajane> if you are working on a "book" without a voice... I'mn ot sure how good of a read that would be? it sounds dry and dull to me. :/
<emmajane> (Even my Calculus text book in university, Spivak? had humour about rabbit population dynamics)
<emmajane> <dscassel> QUESTION: Are you finding publishers (or your publisher, I guess) are looking for things that have more of a narrative, and engage the reader, rather than old tech manual infodumps?  How can a writer make dry technical topics more engaging?  Thoughts along those lines?
<emmajane> Technical manuals are things that get shoved into boxes and are never read.
<emmajane> They aren't books. They're monitor elevators so that your screen is at the right height. ;)
<emmajane> Hopefully they were written by someone who is on staff and isn't trying to make any kind of supplemental income from their writing.
<emmajane> Front End Drupal had lots of fun examples and "interesting" chapter introductions.
<emmajane> The book had: ponies, kittens, pirates, toilet birthdays, hobbits, orks ... um... what else...
<emmajane> oh right. Some stuff about Drupal.
<emmajane> :)
<emmajane> <SoftwareExplorer> I'm taking my first colledge writing class, and for one team writing assignment, people write different parts, and then one person edits it to have a uniform voice. Maybe that's the way to do it
<emmajane> Yes, that's how they do book sprints at FLOSS Manuals.
<emmajane> (www.flossmanuals.net if you're interested)
 * emmajane pauses to see if there are any more questions?
<emmajane> seeing none...
<emmajane> And finally, let's take a look at the tools I used to create Front End Drupal and my other, self-published books.
<emmajane> Topic 3/3: Toolkit
<emmajane> There are basically four tools that I use when writing: paper to do the planning, a text editor to write the initial draft, version control to save my bacon when things go wrong, a screen grab tool and a word processing tool.
<emmajane> More specifically this is: ... well ... paper and a fountain pen. The pen is a Parker pen I bought in England and the paper is typically 24lb bond paper with as much recycled fibre as possible.
<emmajane> But you probably wanted to know about the tech tools?
<emmajane> The first draft of Front End Drupal was written in Vim. I also use TomBoy a lot. (This spring I wrote ~10,000 words in TomBoy) This is just a draft to get as many words as possible written out.
<emmajane> These text files are versioned using svn at first and then Bazaar for the second half of the book. I could go more into this process... but there are a lot of resources already available for this (some of which I've even written). Start at www.bazaar-vcs.org, or check out my previous Open Week presentations.
<emmajane> Once the first draft has been written, I start to look at the formatting I'll need. Whether I'm self-publishing or working with a formal publisher, there's going to be some kind of template required at some point to make things pretty.
<emmajane> Front End Drupal used MS Word templates from the publisher. I, of course, used OpenOffice.org for this step. The publisher then converts these templates into some other format which they then send to the printer. I get to see final PDFs to do a final proof before the book gets printed (and also between each print run).
<emmajane> When I'm self-publishing, I use my own templates in OOo and output PDF. Depending on how I want to sell the book I can then either upload to a printer, such as Lulu.com... or I can just print the text off on my own colour laser printer as needed.
<emmajane> (Although my desktop computers are all purchased used, I do invest in good peripherals...including my printer.)
<emmajane> For screen shot tools I use Ubuntu's "Take Snapshot" tool and also the Firefox plugin, Screengrab. The second one allows you to take a picture of a page that is taller than a browser window. This is incredibly helpful for Web writing.
<emmajane> and that's my toolkit. When I'm working on other documentation projects where I want to output to multiple formats (e.g. PDF and HTML) I use more sophisticated tools than OOo (specifically: DocBook).
<emmajane> My guess is that there will be a lot of questions on tools. So I've left a ton of time to go over specific questions about tools, and any other questions you have about writing books!
<emmajane> <fcuk112> QUESTION: what is your view on writing books using LaTeX?
<emmajane> Writing books should happen in a plain text editor. Marking up text for formatting and distribution should happen in whatever tool chain is going to give you the output formats you need.
<emmajane> I know lots of people who swear by LaTeX. For me XML has always made more sense because HTML was my first "machine" language.
<emmajane> <rufong> QUESTION: would you prefer to self-publish in a format other than pdf?
<emmajane> PDF is just a format for printing, IMO. If you expect to distribute and allow others to print output, you should be working with PDFs.
<emmajane> If you want people to contribute to your work, you may want to use a Wiki instead of a PDF as an output. I would still work in some kind of machine readable language that can output to multiple formats though. (Some wikis will do this.) But my definition of "book" is pretty traditional and always includes a linearized version of the text at some point.
<emmajane> <toobuntu> QUESTION: what about lyx?
<emmajane> See above re. LaTeX.
<emmajane> My answer for any of the machine languages is essentially the same: if you like it, and it outputs to formats you want, go for it!
<emmajane> If you are collaborating with others and you're the only person who cares about that format... well... you may want to consider using something else.
<emmajane> <bgrolleman> QUESTION: Do you write all text before adding screenshots?
<emmajane> "all" is a pretty subjective term...
<emmajane> Generally I have an outline and I know where screen shots are going to be relevant. I leave little notes to myself in the first draft to add screen shots later.
<emmajane> Software has a nasty habit of changing GUI widgets. So I try to leave the pictures out for as long as possible.
<emmajane> <dscassel> QUESTION: Do you use Bzr in centralized mode or distributed ("shared working tree") mode? Why? (Or did the question ever cross your mind?)
<emmajane> It depends who else I'm working with. :)
<emmajane> It's just like software development though... choose the right model for your team.
<emmajane> <bgrolleman> QUESTION: How often and how many do you let "proof-read"?
<emmajane> I had over ten reviewers for Front End Drupal.
<emmajane> Three peer/target market reviewers; three tech reviewers; one copy editor; one "technical" editor that made sure I was conforming to Pearson's style guide.
<emmajane> I think that's all the reviewers I had...
<emmajane> <sebsebseb> QUESTION:  Do you think a lot more books should be offered as a paid for book, but also a free Ebook, from whoever wrote/published it?
<emmajane> Well.... I think that authors should have the freedom to make that decision for themselves.
<emmajane> It's great when an author has a full time job and can afford to take the risk with their publisher of giving away free books.
<emmajane> I give away a LOT of my material as well. But when I spend the time to put hundreds of hours into a linear book that is my voice, I'm not so keen to give it away.
<emmajane> I do, however, contribute an (almost) equal amount of time to free software projects to help with their documentation.
<emmajane> e.g. this talk! :)
<emmajane> I also write technical content for lots of projects. That goes back to "hiding" my voice on collaborative works though.
<emmajane> <lifer999> QUESTION: Have you checked out Google Wave? Any thought vis-a-vis publishing?
<emmajane> I have a Google Wave account.
<emmajane> publishing though? erm.
<emmajane> I dunno. I guess I'm just old skool.
<emmajane> I've used the collaborative editing tools as well (one is a desktop client that gets used at UDS, gobby?) and there's a Web-based one too (the name is escaping me though).
<emmajane> <Rohirrim> QUESTION: How important is an attractive and illustrative cover page for a tech book? (sorry if the question has been asked)
<emmajane> wellllllllllllllllllll... um...
<emmajane> go look at the cover of Front End Drupal and then let me know privately how important you think the cover is. ;)
<emmajane> I'm just kidding.
<emmajane> I think it's important to the stores who don't know anything about tech and are going to put your book on their shelves.
<emmajane> I don't think it's important to the buyers if you already have a name in the community and a "loyal" following.
<emmajane> <shadowspar> QUESTION: do you have any broad recommendations for someone looking to improve their writing craft? someone who might some day want to write a book, but doesn't feel like their writing is "there" yet?
<emmajane> Two words: Write. Lots.
<emmajane> Writing is a skill that takes practice. You can't go from writing nothing to writing a whole book. :)
<emmajane> or maybe s/can't/shouldn't/
<emmajane> But seriously: just get stuck in there and start writing every day.
<emmajane> Contribute to Wikis and documentation projects if you're nervous about your own voice.
<emmajane> Fix stuff that looks "broken" to you and think about why you want to change it.
<emmajane> Blog.
<emmajane> Journal.
<emmajane> I also find that talking a lot helps to develop a voice. When you read my stuff you can "hear" me.
<emmajane> <sebsebseb> QUESTION:  Do you think that proprietary closed source paid for  book writing software, that has only been  made for Windows,  should ideally be ported to Desktop Linux soon,  especially if it is rather popular, and won't work properly in Wine or at all, even after attempted configuring?
<emmajane> erm... like InDesign?
<emmajane> I'm not sure which software you're referring to.
<emmajane> or FrameMaker?
<emmajane> or...
<emmajane> Book *writing* software is stuff like Notepad and TomBoy. :)
<emmajane> I assume you mean a formatting tool, not a writing tool....
<emmajane> a Writing tool is something like a pen and paper. :)
<emmajane> It's true that Linux doesn't have very sophisticated formatting GUIs, but I think you'll find that a lot of huge publishing houses don't either and they use stuff like DocBook and LaTeX as well.
<emmajane> For most people OpenOffice.org will do a fine job of formatting short texts (under 200 pages).
<emmajane> There are more complicated layout tools as well, but if I'm doing something bigger, I generally just switch to DocBook. Should there be more tools? I'm not sure... I think I'd rather have the programmers work on things with a larger market.
<emmajane> <vcalvo> QUESTION: which is the the book or books that you have already read and while you were in the process you thought: that's a good one, good written ...
<emmajane> Every book has good lessons in it.
<emmajane> They're all different though. Choosing a favourite would be like having to pick between my cat and my rabbit. It'd be a hard choice. :)
<emmajane> <dinda> QUESTION:  what's the next book, you're dying to write?
<emmajane> I'm already on contract to write the prequel to Front End Drupal. :)
<emmajane> So that's the next book. :)
<emmajane> We're almost out of time so I guess that's a wrap!
<emmajane> Thanks for all your great questions, folks!
<emmajane> That was great.
* jcastro changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to Ubuntu Open Week! https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek || Session: Getting People involved in your LoCo/Team || All questions go in #ubuntu-classroom-chat |
<jcastro> thanks alot emmajane!
<jcastro> Ok next up we have Jono Bacon with "Getting People involved in your LoCo/Team"
<jono> I am going to give it a few mins for late stragglers
<jono> alrighty
<jono> I think we can get started
<jono> firstly, thanks everyone for joining me in my session today
<jono> and thanks to everyone for joining in the wider open week schedule
<jono> we have an awesome set of sessions throughout the week
<jono> the goal of this session is to discuss methods in which you can help spread the word about your team and have people get involved
<jono> this session is squarely focused on outreach, and the resource that you need in place to make outreach succesful
<jono> the plan is that I am going to cover some key topics and then throw the session open to Q+A where you can ask your team-related questions
<jono> ok, lets get started...
<jono> one of the reasons why I love the Ubuntu community is its diverse and abundant set of teams
<jono> we have teams covering development, advocacy, documentation, translations, testing and more
<jono> each of these teams helps gather people together to focus on common problems, and to help move Ubuntu forward in quality and features
<jono> teams are fairly common in communities, and even tiny communities will often break down different skills into different teams
<jono> teams help facilitate more effective communication (you can have team-specific mailing lists, IRC channels etc), and a sense of localized morale can build in a team
<jono> but teams offer two specific benefits which we will capitalize on when attracting people to them
<jono> the first is Scope
<jono> if we look at the global Ubuntu community we can literally tens of thousands of people passionate about the community
<jono> these people are spread across forums, mailing lists, IRC channels, physical meeting, social media sites and more
<jono> if we were to put all of these people into one huge room (such as a football stadium), we would be overwhelmed
<jono> we would feel like a raindrop in the sea
<jono> this would in turn make it difficult for us to build social connections and feel a sense of scope
<jono> scope is critical for us to feel like we understand the full extent of the team
<jono> if we join at a team that has 10 people in it, we feel like we fully understand the extent of the team when we know those 10 people
<jono> if the team has 20,000 people in it, we will always feel somewhat insecure about where we fit in, due to the raindrop issue
<jono> LoCo teams are great solutions for scope - they provide a safe place in which other people of similar cultural backgrounds (French, German, Spanish, Estonian etc) can get together in a team that is typically small enough that we can all feel the scope of the team
<jono> the way we capitalize scope is to really secure 1-on-1 relationships between the members, this will in turn make the team feel all warm and fuzzy
<jono> the second element of teams is Belonging
<jono> the reason why people stick around in communities is to feel a sense of belonging
<jono> this is how it typically works:
<jono> Sarah discovers Ubuntu
<jono> she likes it, starts learning more about it, and is keen to meet others who like it
<jono> she learns about the community and decided to join a team, such as her local team Ubuntu-UK
<jono> she joins the team and meets a warm reception, and discovers events that are happening, team projects, meetings and other activities to keep her occupied
<jono> she contributes some wiki pages, draws some icons, attends some meetings and some other things for the team
<jono> people enjoy he contributions and thank her for it
<jono> she likes this, and this drives her enthusiasm to contribute more
<jono> she makes more contributions and more people appreciate it
<jono> before long everyone in the team knows Sarah and they respect her work, and she feels a tremendous sense of achievement and belonging
<jono> the other folks in Ubuntu-UK are no longer names on the Internet, but instead friends
<jono> this drives a sense of belonging, a sense that Ubuntu-UK is a safe and inspiring place for her online, and a little bit like the TV show Cheers where "everybody knows your name"
<jono> (I hope the Cheers theme music is now going to pester your brains all day, folks) :-)
<jono> so in a nutshell, with our teams we want to communicate these two key attributes:
<jono>  1. Scope - make the team feel small, loose and close: make sure that everyone feels they have an opportunity to know what is going on and who is involved.
<jono>  2. Belonging - build a positive atmosphere, focused on doing productive and fun things, and ensure that contributions are welcomed and celebrated.
<jono> so, how do we build these things? well lets get started
<jono> the first thing you need is a firm web presence
<jono> now, so so so many team make the same mistake when they form
<jono> it works a little like this:
<jono> 1. Start a team
<jono> 2. Create a communication channel - typically a mailing list
<jono> 3. Get close friends involved - the team is now about 5 people strong
<jono> 4. Promote a little - a few blog entries, Twitter posts
<jono> 5. Decide a web presence is needed.
<jono> 6. Spend the next two months bickering about which CMS to use
<jono> the first few months of any team are like the first few months of a babies life - it is about making a social connection
<jono> and not arguing about what color their clothes should be
<jono> the first few months should be about building a team - starting to develop these social connections
<jono> it is about ensuring that people can meet each other, get to know other people in the team, learning what skills everyone can bring to the team etc
<jono> the arguing about CMSs issue always detracts from setting up a team
<jono> as such I always recommend: create some wiki pages on wiki.ubuntu.com and just use that for now as a means to store information, the CMS can come later
<jono> the content on your web presence should be focused on these social connections
<jono> some ideas:
<jono>  * Members page - have a page in which your members can put their picture, short bios and links to their website
<jono>  * Meetings - you should schedule regular IRC meetings with an open agenda - make sure your team knows when the meeting is and how they can get involved - I will talk meetings more in a bit
<jono>  * Knowledge Base - you should start documenting common information that your members need to know - if you are a LoCo team, specify the kind of work you plan on doing, where you meet etc - if you are a translation team, document common word dictionaries, step-by-step guide to making translations suggestions in Rosetta etc
<jono> the goal of our web presence is to answer the common questions your team has when it forms
<jono> we want to make sure the barrier to entry is low
<jono> as I said earlier, a key thing here is Communication
<jono> two communication resources are needed:
<jono>  1. Channels - you want to provide an effective means for the team to talk at any time - most teams have (1) a mailing list and (2) an IRC channel - mailing lists are great for longer discussions and IRC channels are perfect for building social connections
<jono> 2. Scheduled Team Time - it important that you come together as a team regularly to discuss topics - the problem with mailing lists and IRC is that people will dip in at random times - when you schedule some team time, you provide an opportunity for everyone to get together at once - this is typically in the form of IRC meetings
<jono> these meetings are the first critical method getting people involved
<jono> when scheduling meetings you should do the following:
<jono>  1. Document the details - have a wiki page that outlines where you meet (which IRC channel and which network), what time (most use the UTC timezone although for LoCo teams it is usually fine to use your local timezone), and what dates (they are often recurring (e.g. the first Tuesday of every month)
<jono> 2. Ensure key attendance - the founders and leaders of the team absolutely need to attend meetings - it is these people that will drive discussion forward, keep people motivated and ensure everone gets a chance to speak
<jono> 3. Public Agenda - have a wiki page in which everyone can add an item to the agenda to discuss - this is soooooo important - it makes the team feel open and accessible
<jono> and then.....
<jono>  4. Promote!
<jono> you should spread the word about your meeting everywhere
<jono> good places include:
<jono>  * Member blogs - particularly if on Planet Ubuntu
<jono>  * Twitter / identi.ca - announce the meeting and also announce an hour before it kicks off that it is taking place - this will be a good reminder
<jono>  * Facebook - consider creating a Facebook page for your team and announce meetings there
<jono>  * Mailing List / IRC Channel / Team Resources - be sure to announce the meeting to your team, they are the key participants - post to your mailing list, but it in your IRC channel's topic and ensure it is on your team wiki pages
<jono> now, there is one big misconception about promotion
<jono> that is that the only people responsible for it are leaders
<jono> you need encourage *everyone* in your team to promote your meetings
<jono> a good way of doing this is documenting a firm commitment for people to blog or promote it on give days - as an example, for the Ubuntu Global Jam, we had a meeting once and of the 15 or so primary participants, we asked each to commit to a blog entry about the event on a different day
<jono> this ensured a consistent spread of messaging on Planet Ubuntu
<jono> I can't emphasize enough how important meetings are
<jono> *every* team should have them, and if you feel like you have nothing discuss, you have a problem: the point of a team is to *do things*, and if you have no content for your meeting, you are not sufficiently running your team
<jono> so, the first step are these meetings - they are the easiest to organize, cost nothing to run, and easy for people to participate
<jono> with these meetings you should discussing projects that you want your team to work on
<jono> I strongly recommend you take the same approach I take with my team at Canonical with this regard
<jono> for the horsemen I flesh out a plan for each cycle about what we will focus on
<jono> so as an example, for the 10.04 cycle I have asked each of the guys to document what they want to work on, and we decide together how much we can achieve
<jono> we then document these projects in blueprints on Launchpad and this gives us a good sense of what we are focusing our efforts on
<jono> as such, I would recommend that you consider discussing plans on a per cycle basis for your team
<jono> lets look at an example of a loco team
<jono> a 10.04 plan for a LoCo team could involve:
<jono>  * organizing an Ubuntu Global Jam event
<jono>  * organizing a release party
<jono>  * working together on a given translations
<jono> translation
<jono>  * creating some resources for the team, such as flyers, stickers etc
<jono>  * planning on running a booth at a given conference or shoiw
<jono> show
<jono> each of these different ideas can be registered as a blueprint where you can decide what action items need to be developed to achieve the project and who will volunteer for it
<jono> this kind of project management approach to teams may seem a little tedious at first, but what it does is it firmly states some projects that team members can contribute to
<jono> it provides focus and direction for the team, and meetings are a great opportunity to discuss these team projects
<jono> part of the reason I am promoting the idea of building a plan for each cycle is that each project you agree on will be a carrot and stick to attract new members to your team
<jono> just going out there and saying "woo! come and join our LoCo, it is awesome!" is typically not enough, and if people do join, they will get bored if there is nothing to work on
<jono> but instead going out and saying "woo! our team is working on this cool event, and we are looking for people to help, go and check out this blueprint which outlines the project and join this meeting to come and discuss it" - this provides some real meat on the bones
<jono> this is the key in getting people involved - provide great communication opportunities and an interesting set of projects to work on
<jono> the *vast majority* of teams that struggle in getting off the ground are teams that have failed to set a sense of direction - we look to leaders to do this, and this project planning approach that I am recommending wil solve this
<jono> when you have your project plan in place, you can then go and shout from the rooftops to get people interested and involved
<jono> ok, I am going to grab a glass of water and then I will take some questions
<jono> <rrnwexec> QUESTION: Can you give an example of what a team that "fails to get off the ground" looks like?
<jono> sure
<jono> typically it looks like this:
<jono>  * team forms, puts resources in place, excitement builds
<jono>  * ideas are generate but in an ad-hoc, random way, no real structure or planning is put in place
<jono>  * new members are unsure of how to get involved in an idea due to this lack of structure, nothing gets done, the mailing list starts getting quiet
<jono>  * the team then loses momentum and starts to stagnate
<jono> <fetova> QUESTION: when do you think is the best time to do the LoCo meeting?, thinking on each ubuntu release...
<jono> online meetings I recommend as at least one a month
<jono> physical meetings can happen whenever but I always recommend at least one Ubuntu Global Jam event and one release party
<jono> <jamesjedimaster> <QUESTION> what project could be a good start to gather people and get them involved?
<jono> a great start could be one of these:
<jono>  * Ubuntu Global Jam event (this is a physical event where people get together to work on Ubuntu)
<jono>  * Release Party (another physical event where people get together to celebrate the release)
<jono>  * Wiki Jam (maybe organize an online event where people get together to build out the team wiki pages)
<jono>  * Physical Meets (maybe organize some physical meetings with presentations)
<jono> basically any project that the team is interested in working on, be it physical or online is cool, the key is building a structure around that project
<jono> <aim1159> QUESTION: should all of the team members be ubuntu-religious? For example: we got a couple of people who uses mac os x on the pcs but use ubuntu on servers and make a development work (sent patches and etc) for ubuntu projects. how to deal with this - the presentation is important not less than the development. how can one tell people - go and get ubuntu and on the other hand use mac os x or windows 7 for his own needs?
<jono> I would argue that *everyone* is welcome
<jono> we want to have an atmosphere in which people can migrate to Ubuntu
<jono> when I formed a Linux User Group many new people used Windows and eventually transitioned to Linux
<jono> <rrnwexec> QUESTION: A follow-up... What would you consider numeric failure, or is there such a thing?
<jono> not sure what is numeric failture
* jcastro changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to Ubuntu Open Week! https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek (changes made, please check regularly) || Session: Byobu by Dustin Kirkland || All questions go in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<jcastro> (3 minutes left) -ed
<jono> <rrnwexec> QUESTION: What is the most important contribution a LoCo can make to the Ubuntu ecosystem? As specific as possible, if you can.
<jono> there is no single contribution that trumps others, but I think LoCo teams really excel in advocacy
<jono> namely: going and representing Ubuntu in their local area, providing a local support network, and representing Ubuntu at events
<jono> <mhall119|work> QUESTION: how can we encourage people with no interest in computers to be involved?
<jono> at least some interest in computers is needed, but having a group that provides a friendly, encouraging and welcoming atmosphere is the first step
<jono> ok folks, my time is up
<jono> thanks everyone for joining my session!
<jono> and I recommend you all join #ubuntu-locoteams if you are in a LoCo team
<jono> thanks!
 * kirkland high fives jono 
 * jono high-fives kirkland
<kirkland> Alrighty, I'll attempt to follow the illustrious Jono's presentation on the Bacon Community
<jono> lol
<kirkland> ask him about his very own t-shirt line on the subject some time :-)
<jono> haha
<kirkland> okay, howdy everyone
<jono> rock on kirkland :-)
<kirkland> my presentation is on an awesome piece of software that I think makes Ubuntu very unique
<kirkland> particularly, Ubuntu servers and command lines
<kirkland> but Ubuntu desktops too
<kirkland> something I wrote called Byobu
<kirkland> question 1 is usually, "how on earth do you pronounce that..."
<kirkland>  * http://people.canonical.com/~kirkland/byobu.wav
<kirkland> well there you go
<kirkland> byobu is a japanese term for a fancy, folding screen
<kirkland> http://images.google.com/images?q=byobu  <--- something like that
<kirkland> so a quick poll over in #ubuntu-classroom-chat ....
<kirkland> raise your right hand o/ if you're completely new to GNU screen in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<kirkland> okay, so byobu is a layer of scripts and configuration utilities that sit on top of GNU screen
<kirkland> i think that it makes it far more useful, and usable
<kirkland> in jaunty, an early version of byobu was available under a different name
<kirkland> called, screen-profiles
<kirkland> byobu is the followon to screen-profiles, being much faster and more usable
<kirkland> so lets dive right into the demonstration!
<kirkland> to participate in the demo, you will need to keep an eye on your irc client (here)
<kirkland> and to open up a new terminal, like gnome-terminal, and ssh to a system i've configured in EC2
<kirkland> ssh -C guest@ec2-75-101-202-231.compute-1.amazonaws.com
<kirkland> the password is guest
<kirkland> you will have read-only access to this screen
<kirkland> and i'll drive the demo
<kirkland> at the moment, you should see something that looks like the Matrix on the screen
<kirkland> i generated this setup with another tool i wrote called "screenbin"
<kirkland> for sharing screensessions in EC2
<kirkland> okay, we have 30+ people in already
<kirkland> so i'm going to unlock the screen
<kirkland> now, i've ssh'd to a second machine in EC2
<kirkland> where I'm running byobu!
<kirkland> byobu is a window manager
<kirkland> similar, in some respects to gnome or kde
<kirkland> but entirely in a text interface
<kirkland> we can open new windows, move among open windows
<kirkland> attach/detach from sessions
<kirkland> and configure notification applets
<kirkland> okay, so across the bottom of the screen you should see 2 lines
<kirkland> the upper line showing the open windows
<kirkland> the lower line showing some stats about my system
<kirkland> most of the keybindings are attached to F-keys
<kirkland> so first, i'm going to open a few more windows
<kirkland> using the <F2> key
<kirkland> now i have windows 0 - 3
<kirkland> i can use <F3> and <F4> to move back and forth among the windows
<kirkland> let's run a few different programs in each window
<kirkland> i'm going to run "top" in window 3
<kirkland> now, i want to rename window 3 from "bash" to "top"
<kirkland> so I use the <F8> key
<kirkland> i'll choose a name for this window to make it easier to find
<kirkland> now i can move back and forth to the "top" window when I need to
<kirkland> perhaps i use other windows for a web browser, and irc
<kirkland> you get the idea
<kirkland> now, let's play with the configuration
<kirkland> you should see a hint on one of the lines at the bottom
<kirkland> Menu:<F9>
<kirkland> here, we have a curses based menu
<kirkland> first, let's look at the help available on Byobu
<kirkland> this shows you these F-keybindings that i've been using
<kirkland> we've gone over F2, F3, F4, F8, and F9
<kirkland> we'll do the other shortly
<kirkland> now consider for a second the normal screen keybidings
<kirkland> ie, without Byobu
<kirkland> hmm, i'm having trouble getting those to come up because of my double screen session
<kirkland> but if you try ctrl-a-? in a local screen session, you'll see them
<kirkland> let's look at the other config options
<kirkland> we can change the colors of the two lines across the bottom
<kirkland> okay, i've changed it to cyan
<kirkland> there's ~15 different colors
<kirkland> i like to use a different color on each server i manage
<kirkland> helps with visual recognition of what machine i'm on
<kirkland> i can also toggle the status notifications of the little things across the bottom
<kirkland> these are "status notifications"
<kirkland> so i can see what i have enabled/disabled right now
<kirkland> now for compatibility, i opened this session 80x25, so that it should fit on *everyone's* screen
<kirkland> but normall i run my terminals *much* bigger than that, so that i can fit more info across the bottom
<kirkland> i'm going to enable a couple more here
<kirkland> okay, i'm going to turn on: hostname, whoami, ipaddress and network traffic
<kirkland> okay, no i've overused my 80 characters across, so let's turn a few more off
<kirkland> first, that red "4!" tells me that there are 4 updates available for my system
<kirkland> let's install those
<kirkland> give it 7 seconds
<kirkland> and that 4! should disappear ....
<kirkland> boom
<kirkland> the updates installed
<kirkland> also, i don't really need to know my uptime here
<kirkland> let's turn that off
<kirkland> and this is EC2, so i don't really care about my cpu speed
<kirkland> on my laptop i do, because i use frequency scaling
<kirkland> Amazon does not though
<kirkland> cool
<kirkland> now my info fits across the bottom line
<kirkland> i'm actually going to turn off the hostname too, since the ip address and hostname are very similar
<kirkland> and now that i know that F9 is the menu, i don't need that either
<kirkland> clear?
<kirkland> cool
<kirkland> so across the bottom, we have a "logo"
<kirkland> the 3 color \o/ is like 1/3 of the ubuntu logo
<kirkland> this is an Ubuntu 9.10 system
<kirkland> which differs based on where you run this
<kirkland> 1# means that there's only 1 person logged into *this* system
<kirkland> actually all of you (42 of you) are logged into a different one, that i used to ssh to this one
<kirkland> the ~$0.31 is interesting here....
<kirkland> that's an approximation of how much this EC2 instance is costing me
<kirkland> (or Canonical, as the case is)
<kirkland> there's up and down networking
<kirkland> which is pretty low right now
<kirkland> but if I start downloading something big, that will spike
<kirkland> let's watch the network traffic increase :-)
<kirkland> that's a lot of bandwidth :-)
<kirkland> i can go back and forth to other windows
<kirkland> while that downloads
<kirkland> in fact, I can disconnect, and come back later!
<kirkland> watch this ...
<kirkland> F6 -> detach
<kirkland> so now I'm back at my other system
<kirkland> sorry, forgot how to reattach for a second there !
<kirkland> byobu -x reattaches
<kirkland> as you can see, my download continued in the background
<kirkland> let's look at the rest of the configuration
<kirkland> so perhaps you don't like the F-keys
<kirkland> because they conflict with some other program
<kirkland> like mc
<kirkland> you can disable them easily here
<kirkland> or you can just toggle them on/off while you're in byobu with ctrl-a-!
<kirkland> but i like them, so i'm going to cancel
<kirkland> i can also change the escape sequence
<kirkland> which is ctrl-a by default
<kirkland> but often emacs users dislike this
<kirkland> actually, since i'm using 2 screen session here, ctrl-a is problematic for me
<kirkland> i'm going to switch this one to ctrl-b
<kirkland> hah!
<kirkland> now i can show you screen's hot keys
<kirkland> i used ctrl-b-?
<kirkland> this is screen's help
<kirkland> to do something like our F3/F4 to go back and forth between windows you use ctrl-a-p and ctrl-a-n
<kirkland> i think F3/F4 is easier :-)
<kirkland> you can also have a set of default windows open for you when you use byobu
<kirkland> you can use these or create your own
<kirkland> none are enabled by default
<kirkland> but similar to opening firefox and launching your favorite 10 webpages in tabs, you can do something similar in byobu
<kirkland> finally, you can toggle this setting on and off
<kirkland> i like byobu so much i have it launch by default every time I ssh or login to a system
<kirkland> this is nice because my commands are *always* running in a screen session
<kirkland> I can easily attach/detach any time
<kirkland> perhaps my Xorg crashes, or my wifi drops
<kirkland> my programs continue to run in screen
<kirkland> and I just reattach later
<kirkland> so back to the notifications ....
<kirkland> let's say you wanted to find out more about one of the brief little icons at the bottom
<kirkland> there's a special key you can hit to get detailed information
<kirkland> ctrl-a-$
<kirkland> this is a fancy mode of vim
<kirkland> there are a couple of hints at the top
<kirkland> special keys
<kirkland> zr, zo, zm, zc
<kirkland> for instance, here's a breakdown of my ec2 cost by component
<kirkland> cool?
<kirkland> okay ...
<kirkland> let's take a quick tour of the config directory
<kirkland> so your configuration is in .byobu
<kirkland> your "profile" is a symlink to one of the colored profiles
<kirkland> changing your color is a matter of updating this symlink (which you can do in the menu)
<kirkland> this is the nastiness that byobu handles for you :-)
<kirkland> screen is really powerful, but can be painful to configure
<kirkland> so one last feature before we open it up for questions ....
<kirkland> perhaps you use some other distro that doesn't have byobu
<kirkland> or perhaps you have access to an Ubuntu machine that doesn't have byobu, and you don't have admin access to install it
<kirkland> byobu comes with an "export" utility
<kirkland> that will "flatten" the configuration, such that you can copy it somewhere else
<kirkland> ultimately, byobu is just a really complex screenrc configuration
<kirkland> man byobu-export
<kirkland> this is the ticket!
<kirkland> so i'll choose a color
<kirkland> and it creates a .tar.gz tarball that i can copy and unzip elsewere
<kirkland> i'll unzip it to show you what's in there
<kirkland> so now i have a .screenrc
<kirkland> this is just one giant, monolithic byobu configuration
<kirkland> note that the one we use in our package is more modular, and how we can turn features on/off dynamically
<kirkland> you'll loose a little of that with the export
<kirkland> but still, it's pretty cool to be able to install this anywhere that you have gnu screen
<kirkland> i actually use byobu on my Palm Pre, which has WebOS, and includes screen!
<kirkland> it works like a champ!
<kirkland> and then there are a few helper scripts in there too
<kirkland> okay, so i'm going to open the floor to questions.... please post your questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, and lead with kirkland: Q:
<kirkland> nperry-work: sure ... Applications -> Accessories -> Terminal
<kirkland> nperry-work: and type "byobu"
<kirkland> nperry-work: that should start a new session
<kirkland> actually, I encourage *everyone* to give that a shot now, since none of you had write access to our shared term
<kirkland> MenZa: thanks for the kind words :-)
<kirkland> brettalton: as to color selection being ambiguous, please file a bug with a suggestion for the improved verbage
<kirkland> brettalton: defaulting to your local chosen colors would be a sane thing to do, probably
<kirkland> nperry-work: i don't know what thunar is, but if it's text-based,yes, you should be able to
<kirkland> but only text-based programs will run in here
<kirkland> you can launch X programs, if you're using SSH x-forwarding
<kirkland> lbrinkma: oh, good question about ctrl-a-$ on german keyboard ... I don't know honestly; open a bug about that
<kirkland> MenZa: regarding your busted colors ....
<kirkland> MenZa: i see you're on Ubuntu 8.10, which has a bug in screen itself (fixed in later versions, and in the byobu-ppa)
<kirkland> MenZa: it arbitrarily limits color changes on that line to something very small
<kirkland> MenZa: upgrade to the backported screen version in the byobu ppa
<kirkland> brettalton: right so it was really hard for me to choose keybindings
<kirkland> brettalton: you can always just run "byobu-config" by hand
<kirkland> brettalton: also, if you have a look at the keybindings definitions, you could add your own to your local ~/.screenrc
<kirkland> brettalton: your local ~/.screenrc is source LAST, so you can override most of byobu's defaults there, if you're comfortable writing a liine or two of screen config code
<kirkland> alyssum: so F6 is how you detach
<kirkland> alyssum: and "byobu -x" is how you re-attach
<kirkland> alyssum: i setup all of my servers to launch byobu by default
<kirkland> alyssum: and i use F6 to detach, if i need
<kirkland> cyphermox: good question ... that's a limitation of screen itself
<kirkland> cyphermox: something that i'd like to fix in the screen source code
<kirkland> cyphermox: basically, you could have it automatically update "something" to the last command run in that window
<kirkland> cyphermox: that's the closest we could get
<kirkland> cyphermox: i played with it a little, but i didn't like it
<kirkland> cyphermox: if i ran "ls", my window would change its name to "ls"
<kirkland> cyphermox: so it was changing "a lot" ... wasn't quite right yet
<kirkland> cyphermox: so for now, the F8 thing is necessary; sorry
<kirkland> brettalton: so to have byobu launch by default ....
<kirkland> brettalton: first, go to each system and sudo apt-get install byobu (if it's not there already)
<kirkland> brettalton: launch a byobu session with "byobu"
<kirkland> brettalton: go to configuration -> F9
<kirkland> brettalton: and toggle the bottom item     â     Byobu currently launches at login (toggle off)                   â
<kirkland> brettalton: then each time you login (ssh or tty), you will start a new byobu session, or reattach to an existing one
<kirkland> sebsebseb: so shared write access ....
<kirkland> sebsebseb: that's something a little different, separate from byobu
<kirkland> sebsebseb: basically, there's two things I needed to do ....
<kirkland> sebsebseb: I needed to make /usr/bin/screen setuid to root
<kirkland> -rwsr-sr-x 1 root utmp 361080 2009-07-06 05:36 /usr/bin/screen*
<kirkland> and then i needed to add a few lines to my .screenrc
<kirkland> ubuntu@ip-10-243-18-53:~$ cat .screenrc
<kirkland> aclumask guest+r guest-w guest-x
<kirkland> aclchg guest +r-w-x '#?'
<kirkland> aclchg guest +x 'prev,next,select,detach'
<kirkland> multiuser on
<kirkland> these aren't default in Ubuntu for obvious security reasons
<kirkland> for the sake of EC2 and this demo, I don't care
<kirkland> if one of you starts misbehaving, I just pull the plug on the VM and it's gone :-)
<kirkland> Landon: great question about screen-profiles vs. byobu !
<kirkland> Landon: a complete list of improvements is available at http://blog.dustinkirkland.com/2009/11/ubuntu-910-byobu-and-openweek-session.html
<kirkland> Landon: the highlights ...
<kirkland> Landon: it's *much* faster, more responsive, performant
<kirkland> Landon: and it has a lot of little usability improvements
<kirkland> okay ,my time is running out
<kirkland> let me leave you with a couple of links ....
<kirkland> if you want to talk more, head over to #byobu
<kirkland> if you want to follow announcements, tutorials, howtos, etc, subscribe to: http://blog.dustinkirkland.com/search/label/Byobu
<kirkland> and for code, dev info, bugs, etc.: https://edge.launchpad.net/byobu
<kirkland> thanks so much for your time
<kirkland> if i didn't get to your question, please post in #byobu and i'll answer them there
<kirkland> done!
 * kirkland looks at that timestamp ^
* akgraner changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to Ubuntu Open Week! https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek || ISO Testing Tracker - Ara Pulido  || All questions go in #ubuntu-classroom-chat ||
<jcastro> ara, sorry!
<ara> jcastro, no problem :)
<jcastro> Sorry about that everyone, I was dozing off. :)
<jcastro> Take it away Ara!
<ara> Hello all, thanks for coming!
<ara> My name is Ara and I am part of the Ubuntu QA team
<ara> In this session, part of the Ubuntu Open Week, I am going to talk about the ISO tracker, one of our tools to manage testing
<ara> Do you guys know the ISO tracker and its function in our testing process?
<ara> In the QA team (http://qa.ubuntu.com/) we have two main activities to perform (among many others): Testing and Bug triaging.
<ara> You might already know that Ubuntu has a 6-month release cycle, which means that every 6 months we have a new Ubuntu release, ready to install. Less known is the fact that, before the final release, up to 8 development releases are launched: Alpha 1 to 6, Beta and Release Candidate.
<ara> (although we are going to have only 3 alphas in the cycle that started today)
<ara> Not only for the final release, but for all these releases, we need to test that installation is working OK for the ISO images. The management of the testing of these images is done in the tracker. Everyone can help, and I will show you how.
<ara> The ISO tracker is hosted at http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/. Go there and have a quick look.
<ara> I'll give you some seconds...
<ara> Milestones normally happen on Thursdays. During that week testers can start looking at the tracker to check if candidates images are appearing.
<ara> OK, first question
<ara> <erUSUL> QUESTION: you only test clean installs with desktop/alternate or there is testing with upgrades using the alternate cd ??
<ara> erUSUL, we also test upgrades, not only clean installations, we will get back to that later
<ara> continuing...
<ara> First thing you will need to do is to create and account in the ISO tracker. Take into account that if you already have an account in the Ubuntu Brainstorm (http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/) you can use the same account.
<ara> Click on Log in, Create New Account tab.
<ara> Select a username, email, and solve the simple captcha. Your password will be sent to that email account. Let me know when you all have an account.
<ara> While people create their accounts, I will continue explaining a bit how the tracker is structured
<ara> OK, a couple of questions
<ara> <jtniehof> QUESTION: do we have to do anything special to get a brainstorm account to carry over to iso.qa? (I can log into brainstorm, but not iso.qa)
<ara> jtniehof, normally nothing is required. it is weird. I will look into that this week. In the mean time, you can create a new account
<ara> <sebsebseb> QUESTION:  Where is or  when will there be a Lucid Lynx release scheduled?
<ara> sebsebseb, the Lucid schedule is already public at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LucidReleaseSchedule
<ara> OK, going back to the structure of the tracker...
<ara> Whenever there are images to test, a message tells us which milestone we are testing. In this case, I have created a fake milestone for this session, so we can play around without breaking any previous results :-)
<ara> You can see the message "We are currently testing candidate images for the fake Ubuntu Open Week release"
<ara> At Ubuntu, we produce builds for many different *buntu flavours. In the ISO Tracker we have a category for each of them. You can filter by category using the âFilterâ menu in the bottom left of the page. That would allow you to concentrate in the flavour you want to test.
<ara> For this fake milestone I have created fake builds to test for Ubuntu, Ubuntu Netbook Remix, Mythbuntu and Ubuntu Studio
<ara> I haven't included them all to avoid confusion (we have soooo many builds!!!!)
<ara> Once you select a category, you will be able to select an image to download for that category. A category like âUbuntuâ may have different images: i386 Live CD, amd64 alternate, etc., and all of them need to be tested before releasing a milestone.
<ara> If you click now in any of those images, you will have access to a direct link of the ISO to download. Don't try to download it, though. This is a fake milestone, and you won't find much in those links :)
<ara> For each product we have a selection of tests you may run for that image. For every test, there is a link to the test case description in the test case wiki. The test cases are easy to follow when running any of them. All the test cases available need to be covered before the release of a milestone, so everybody is welcome to help :-)
<ara> To have an idea, we had 194 testcases to run for Karmic in each milestone
<ara> So, to sum up the structure, every category contains a set of ISO images and every image contains at least one test case.
<ara> Here you can find a diagram that will help you understand: http://ubuntutesting.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/iso_tracker_diagram.png?w=500&h=353
<ara> Any questions regarding this structure? (or any other question)
<ara> So, let's start pretending that we are in the middle of a testing cycle
<ara> Let's select one of the builds, let's say, Ubuntu Alternate i386
<ara> click on it
<ara> <erUSUL> QUESTION: i asume most people test in VM's or i am mistaken? if so how does that affect the testing?
<ara> erUSUL, testing happens either in real hardware and/or VM. Many people test in VM, but some others test in real HW
<ara> erUSUL, obviously, it is always better in real HW, but HW testing already happen in Canonical certification labs, so it is not that bad to use VMs
<ara> <akgraner> QUESTION: should I download the image, burn a CD and test?  or would it be better to do the testing in a VM?
<ara> akgraner, OK, more or less the same question. Either way is OK. I will get back to this issue later in the talk
<ara> <sebsebseb> QUESTION:  I am thinking what does milestone mean.  I could look it up, but it would be useful to have the answer as part of the session, for other people that aren't sure what it means.
<ara> sebsebseb, good question. A milestone is a announced Ubuntu release that it is not final. We produce official ISOs for those milestones (Alpha1, Alpha2... Beta, RC) and they need to be tested, as we encourage people to install them if they want to help with the development process
<ara> We discourage them, though, for production
<ara> OK, going back to our fake testing
<ara> We have selected Ubuntu alternate i386
<ara> We have a list of 9 test cases that we need to cover
<ara> as you can see right now, nobody have reported any of them
<ara> so we have to work hard to cover them all
<ara> also, we have a link to the ISO on the top of the page
<ara> let's select one of the test cases, let's say Install (auto-resize)
<ara> everybody is in that test case page?
<ara> You can see that nobody has tested it yet
<ara> You have a link to the testcase with instructions to follow
<ara> In this case the link points to http://testcases.qa.ubuntu.com/Install/AlternateResize
<ara> All test cases are described in the test case wiki
<ara> So, once we follow the instructions for that test case, we have to report back to the tracker
<ara> A good report will help the release team decide whether a fix is necessary before announcing the milestone
<ara> So, how do we report?
<ara> First decision: FAILED or PASSED?
<ara> If the installation is unsuccessful, this is, if the bug you encountered is bad enough to prevent you from using the system, mark the test as failed.
<ara> If you encounter no bugs or only bugs that didn't affect directly to your ability to run the system, mark the test as passed
<ara> I.e. An error in the partitioner broke the installation: FAILED
<ara> i.e. You installed correctly, but Firefox was in English, when you installed in Spanish: PASSED (with bugs)
<ara> If you encounter any bugs, no matter if you marked the test as PASSED or FAILED, you should be reporting it in Launchpad. Once reported, add the number of the bug to your report and mark it as "Serious" if you think that the release team should be looking at it as soon as possible.
<ara> And the comments:
<ara> And this is related to the VM/HW question before
<ara> Comments are always welcome. You can explain briefly the configuration of the test machine, if it was run in a physical machine or a virtual machine.
<ara> But  bugs should be added to Launchpad
<ara> I will add now a report for that test case
<ara> If you refresh that page (http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/result/3424/19)
<ara> you can see now my report
<ara> You can add yours as well
<ara> (this is no real data, so you won't do any harm)
<ara> Couple of questions
<ara> QUESTION:  Why is  there  a session about  the milestones/development versions,  (alpha, beta, rc,  which is what I thought it meant),  when  most Ubuntu users are told not to run the development version, because of how they shoudn't be relyed on fully, for proper computer usage.
<ara> sebsebseb, wow, that's more a meta question :-)
<ara> sebsebseb, but I'll try to answer it
<ara> sebsebseb, as I told before, there is a lot of test cases that need testing. Some people want to help with the Ubuntu development and they don't know how to start. This could be a good starting point :-)
<ara> sebsebseb, also, ISO testing is not meant to replace your ubuntu installation. It is better to use spare HW, a spare partition or a virtual machine
<ara> QUESTION: when you said "run the system" is "install the system" you do not test beyond the end of the install; do you?
<ara> erUSUL, you can do some smoke testing. Open your browser, browse the web, use open office, etc, use compiz, etc. Do the things you would normally do.
<ara> OK, continuing...
<ara> (btw, I've seen some of you already "reported" in the tracker. Nice :-)
<ara> As I told before, every single test case needs to be run at least once before releasing a milestone. When the date of the release is near, it is very important to focus on those tests that haven't been run yet.
<ara> These following two links give you the clue on what to test
<ara> http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/build/all/untested
<ara> http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/build/all/inprogress
<ara> for our fake milestone we already have one in progress, \o/
<ara> Another feature of the ISO tracker: Subscriptions
<ara> Sometimes you can only want to help with a flavour or kind of build. If you are, let's say, a Mythbuntu user and only care about this flavour of Ubuntu, you can subscribe to it, and get email announces every time a new build of your subscriptions is ready to test. To subscribe to a type of build, just click on the build, select the testcases you would like to test (normally you would select all from a build) and click on subs
<ara> cribe. Finally, to subscribe to the emails, go to your profile page, on the top right corner, and select E-mail notification.
<ara> ok, a good question
<ara> <kennethvenken> QUESTION: test cases are run prior to releasing a milestone. So when are they tested? Do the tests for alpha 6 start right after the alpha 5 release or a few days before alpha 6?
<ara> OK, normally testing start happening Monday of a week of a release (that happen on Thursdays). But it can vary, so subscriptions are very important if you want to be notified about it
<ara> So, when it is going to be the next ISO testing week?
<ara> As we told before, you can check the Lucid Lynx release schedule at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LucidReleaseSchedule
<ara> As you can see, the first milestone, Alpha 1, is scheduled to be released December 3rd (not surprisingly, a Thursday). That means that the week of November 30th is the perfect week to help testing the ISOs.
<ara> So, if you want to help testing, join us on #ubuntu-testing that week and start helping with the Ubuntu development process!
<ara> (we are daily on that channel to solve and chat about Ubuntu testing)
<ara> <sebsebseb> QUESTION: Why is there only going to be three alphas, instead of six?
<ara> sebsebseb, I guess that was a decision from the release team, and I don't have the answer. You can ask it in #ubuntu-release and the release team will surely help you
<ara> OK, if there are no more questions I think we can wrap up
<ara> I hope to see you all at #ubuntu-testing for Lucid Alpha 1 ISO testing!
* jcastro changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to Ubuntu Open Week! https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek (changes made, please check regularly) || Session: Learning Project by Elizabeth Krumbach || All questions go in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<jcastro> thanks ara!
<jcastro> pleia2: you're next!
<pleia2> Hi everyone, welcome to the Ubuntu Open Week session on the Ubuntu Community Learning Project (UCLP).
<pleia2> My name is Elizabeth Krumbach, I'm a board member of the UCLP, have been involved with technical review of professional coursework, have worked to coordinate classes in #ubuntu-classroom and am involved locally with my LoCo team which seeks to launch classroom training.
<pleia2> As a pretty new project, this session will give details about the UCLP, I will be covering project goals, general project status and how to individuals can get involved, I'll pause for questions throughout.
<pleia2> The goal of this project is to create coursework that can be used by individuals for teaching, for Ubuntu LoCo teams, for Linux Users Groups, for presentations at conferences, for IRC, for Moodle-based teaching - anywhere you're teaching folks about Ubuntu.
<pleia2> Our project page is here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning
<pleia2> We have an IRC channel on this network over at #ubuntu-learning
<pleia2> Our mailing list is here: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-learning
<pleia2> And we have a Moodle installation over at http://learn.ufbt.net/ which supports openid logins (so you an use your launchpad account)
<pleia2> < mhall119|work> QUESTION: isn't there a SuSe project to develop open learning material based on moodle?
<pleia2> I don't know, but it would be interesting to find out and perhaps coordinate some things with them material-wise
<pleia2> Moodle isn't our only format though, since our goal is to service a number of different venus
<pleia2> venues
<pleia2> So, to actually achieve this goal, we seek to develop core material for use in 3 major deployment formats:
<pleia2>  * Live classes
<pleia2>  * Moodle
<pleia2>  * IRC
<pleia2> And we've recruited a diverse group of individuals to be on our team board, whose expertise cover various portions of the "Learning" spectrum, including primary education, Moodle deployments, training in IRC and live class training.
<pleia2> < yos> Question: I'm a n00b...what is moodle ?
<pleia2> the main site for Moodle is http://moodle.org/
<pleia2> it's used for online-based training, the site describes it as "Moodle is a Course Management System (CMS), also known as a Learning Management System (LMS) or a Virtual Learning Environment (VLE). It is a Free web application that educators can use to create effective online learning sites."
<pleia2> Now, as far as material goes, we have five core sections we seek to cover:
<pleia2>  * How to Use Ubuntu: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning/UbuntuDesktopTopics
<pleia2>  * How to Maintain Ubuntu: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning/SystemAdminTopics
<pleia2>  * How to Develop Ubuntu: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning/DeveloperTopics
<pleia2>  * How to Spread Ubuntu: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning/AdvocateTopics
<pleia2>  * How to Teach Ubuntu: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning/TeachingTopics
<pleia2> you may want to take a look at those pages now, and they'll give you some idea as to how the informal layouts are for each
<pleia2> As you can see from these pages, we've been developing course outlines and collecting resources for each of these topics - but we need more help!
<pleia2> Before I get into talking about our workflow, are there any questions so far?
<pleia2> < doctormo> QUESTION: Are there people who manage each of those sections? responsbility for editing and keeping things sane?
<pleia2> That'll be talked about some in workflow, but yes - there is a loose collaboration between folks to control who is editing what when, and we hope to have more of it as the project progresses
<pleia2> < openweek1_> QUESTION: The goal is to have materials in help of LOCO teams?
<pleia2> yes, one of our goals is to have materials for loco teams to teach, doctormo is already teaching several of the courses he's developed for "How to Maintain Ubuntu" at his loco tea m:)
<pleia2> and the Pennsylvania team will be using some of the desktop courses for our outreach to a local non-profit
<pleia2> < mhall119|work> QUESTION: is Edubuntu involved in this project?
<pleia2> yes, I'm in contact with LaserJock about the project, but they've been very busy with polishing up Edubuntu these past few months
<pleia2> hopefully we'll expand our partnership with them moving forward, along with other teams like the Doc team, Ubuntu Classroom and others
<pleia2> on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning if you go down to "Affiliates & Key People" you can see some of the contacts we've already made with existing teams
<pleia2> < mhall119|work> QUESTION: can I contribute instructional material for ubuntu derivatives like Qimo?
<pleia2> absolutely! we'd just need to define it as such on our wiki so people know where it belongs
<pleia2>  < sebsebseb> QUESTION:  Unfortunately these days most computer courses are Windows only or mainly, especially at low levels.  Would this be one of the projects goals,  provideing  exams and coursework  for  Educational  Establishments who are then teaching students/pupils about
<pleia2> Ubuntu and opensource/freesoftware in general.  With the people passing the course gaining a qualification that in the future many employers, at least in the computer industry, would be interested in.
<pleia2> yes, but our coursework is not at all related to getting any kind of certification
<pleia2> if you're looking for a program to get some formal qualifications you probably want to check out Canonical's training options: http://www.ubuntu.com/training
<pleia2> < openweek1_> QUESTION: What is the policy about using these materials in university courses about Linux?
<pleia2> it's perfectly fine as long as they abide by the CC-BY-SA license we're releasing them under
<pleia2> < kennethvenken> QUESTION: which versions of ubuntu will be covered by this project? Supported versions? Newest version? LTS version?
<pleia2> great question, we're focusing on LTS version, but that's up for discussion
<pleia2> ok, I'm going to move on and talk a little bit about workflow
<pleia2> The workflow for course development is essentially:
<pleia2> Step 1: Collaborative discussion and outlining on the wiki
<pleia2> For instance, if you take a look at our "How to Use Ubuntu" wiki page, you'll see that I've taken "ownership" of the Introduction: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning/UbuntuDesktopTopics
<pleia2> As people want to write classes, they update the wiki page so others know they're working on it.
<pleia2> You'll also see links on that page to existing documentation - we leverage this as much as possible
<pleia2> straight wiki pages aren't great for teaching people from, so we take this material, reference it, and build a framework around it so a teacher can teach it (in real life or irc), or it can be put into moodle
<pleia2> Step 2: Further development and fleshing out in bzr+asciidoc
<pleia2> We track core cores material in Bazaar and the asciidoc format. While it's not required for people to write in this format (.odt is fine if that's all you can do!) this is the preferred method for the team due to the ability to easily transform it into other formats.
<pleia2> s/cores/course
<pleia2> This portion of the development process will be the real meat of the course, putting it into a format that people can learn from, linking to the raw documentation from the wiki and other online resources, and essentially turning raw wiki documentation into a teachable format.
<pleia2> To have a peek at the Sysadmin courses currently in bzr check out: https://code.launchpad.net/ubuntu-learning-materials
<pleia2> Step 3: Putting material from B into our 3 major deployment formats - live classes, irc, moodle
<pleia2> s/B/Step 2
<pleia2> In this section we hand it off to our experts in live classes, irc and moodle for them to put it into their respective formats.
<pleia2> so someone familiar with moodle will take the raw documents produced and put it into a moodle course
<pleia2> a live classroom teacher may export the lesson plan as PDF directly and follow that for teaching
<pleia2> ...but this is our workflow in a perfect world, and we don't live in one :)
<pleia2> To account for this, the project is very flexbile with this workflow.
<pleia2> Want to join the project and just do an IRC session? Great! Update the wiki to show the class you're covering and link to the session logs so we can gain from your expertise.
<pleia2> Want to join the project and just do development directly in Moodle? Excellent! Update the wiki to show what you'll be covering in your Moodle course and link to your progress.
<pleia2> This is a pretty preliminary view of how we're doing things now and it'll be worked through in the coming months, but are there any questions before I move on to how to get involved?
<pleia2> < axisys> how do I pull this https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-learning-board/ubuntu-learning-materials/trunk
<pleia2> doctormo is the bzr expert on the team, so I'll let him answer this one :)
<doctormo> OK so there are a few old branches you should ignore, one is trunk, which is filled with odfs.
<doctormo> the best thing to do is to pull from the development focus
<doctormo> bzr branch lp:ubuntu-learning-materials
<pleia2> thanks doctormo
<doctormo> Make sure you keep your branches up to date, and then commit your branches when you've made changes.
<pleia2> we're going to be writing some documentation specifically targeted toward contributors to help with this
<doctormo> We'll do merge requests and variosu thijngs, to be taught.
<pleia2> < mhall119|work> QUESTION: going back to linux-for-education.org, which uses moodle, can we put out moddle versions there ?  Is there any objection to that?
<pleia2> < mhall119|work> if we want to translate asciidocs into moodle, can we do it there and link to them?
<pleia2> < mhall119|work> or is there a moodle site for this project we can put them into?
<pleia2> so, Moodle is not actually my forte, but the license allows us to share this material and contribute it to any other moodle deployments
<pleia2> asciidoc can be exported into html, and that would be put into moodle
<pleia2> and our moodle site is here: http://learn.ufbt.net/ :)
<pleia2> we've already imported at least one course from another source since the license was friendly
<pleia2> Now... how do you get involved? How do you benefit from our resources?
<pleia2> We've made it pretty easy to join the project, as outlined in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning/Structure:
<pleia2>  1. Get a launchpad account and sign the Code of Conduct (see: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/GnuPrivacyGuardHowto#Validation%20on%20Launchpad)
<pleia2>  2. Introduce yourself to the team and give us an idea of your interests, skills, and how you see yourself working with the team (introductions can happen via mailing list or in IRC, in public or to a team board member)
<pleia2> we like introductions because then we know what kind of talent we have on the team, those of us organizing course material can know who to ask about certain things
<pleia2> for instance, I know dinda is a Moodle wizard :) so we've been able to ask her when we get stumped on moodle, if she doesn't know she tends to know who to ask!
<pleia2>  3. Apply for or have one of the board members add you to the launchpad team: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-learning
<pleia2> that's it! very simple :)
<pleia2> < mhall119|work> QUESTION: how small can a contribution be?  I've written a couple of short "hacklets" for ubuntu-fl.org that are really more of the tips and tricks nature, would you want those?
<pleia2> < mhall119|work> example: http://www.ubuntu-fl.org/2009/08/27/hacklet-apt-cache-redirect/
<pleia2> These are great! In the case of these I'd link them to the wiki page they're related to
<pleia2> so maybe that would go under our "maintaining ubuntu" course, so add it to the wiki and when the person writing the course gets to it, they may decide it's a great resource and to teach it in the course
<pleia2> our course writers will tend to be experts in what they're writing, but having resources written by dozens of other brilliant minds will help a lot, so links to the wiki, links to docs like this
<pleia2> So, we're looking for folks to help out the project in a variety of ways:
<pleia2>  * Folks who will help fleshing out outlines and getting links to great material that exists so we can link to it as reference material
<pleia2> (so jump right in! thanks already mhall119|work!)
<pleia2>  * Course writers either using the set workflow, or developing directly for Moodle, IRC or Live sessions
<pleia2> we already have cprofitt with some great plans for moodle, doctormo doing live sessions, and Ubuntu Classroom chugging along with IRC sessions but we need a lot more help
<pleia2> so...
<pleia2>  * Moodle experts who can help others with Moodle development
<pleia2> we had a great session with an educator that dinda put us in touch with several weeks ago
<pleia2>  * IRC teachers who will lead courses in IRC (related to http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom)
<pleia2> we'd love to see this channel active again for more than just Ubuntu Open Week :)
<pleia2>  * Real Life session teachers who are seeking to teach course material
<pleia2> so again, folks looking to teach things for their LoCo teams, using our materials
<pleia2> we want people doing this, giving us feedback, helping us improve our documents
<pleia2>  * Material reviewers
<pleia2> doctormo tends to post his finished courses on his blog and the comments are great! we need more folks doing this
<pleia2> And how can you benefit from this project? As courses are released, you can take them and start teaching them!
<pleia2> Already, Martin Owens has already released 10 courses in PDF that he's been teaching for the US-MA LoCo for the "How to Maintain Ubuntu" section, which can be found at the bottom of https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning/SystemAdminTopics under "System Administration Basics Course"
<pleia2> and as I mentioned before, the Pennsylvania team is planning on doing some intro classes for a local non-profit that refurbishes computers
<pleia2> < openweek1_> QUESTION: how will be handled other than english languages in the materials/courses
<pleia2> the great thing about asciidoc is the ability to port it into different formats - I am not intimately familiar with translations, but I'm told it can be exported into translation friendly formats
<pleia2> < artopal> QUESTION: What was the rationale behind choosing asciidoc instead of some other lightweight markup language like, e.g. txt2tags (which is also very feature full), or the more common (and complex) alternative: docbook?
<pleia2> We hashed this out during meetings, docbook was decided to be too hard to learn - the barrier to entry was too high
<pleia2> I don't recall why we didn't go with txt2tags, but team member BiosElement spent several weeks researching a whole pile of formats
<pleia2> asciidoc has a format very similar to wiki, so we figured most people could catch on quickly
<pleia2> and although it's not quite as easy as writing things in odt (which we'll accept too, if we need to), aciidoc's ability to be exported into loads of formats is great
<pleia2> < openweek1_> QUESTION: I dont get it, how is asciidoc related to Moodle? Is it its native format? Because I have some expiriance with moodle, but no export/import
<pleia2> asciidoc can be exported into .html, which you can import into moodle
<pleia2> < kennethvenken> QUESTION: do you have a roadmap? When will the first courses be ready?
<pleia2> the first 10 courses are completed and we're actively developing several more
<pleia2> we don't actually have a roadmap with specific goals, we should :)
<pleia2> < doctormo> QUESTION: are courses peer reviewed at all?
<pleia2> as I mentioned earlier - one of the things we need volunteers for is review, thus far they've been reviewed on blogs and by posting raw material to the mailing list
<pleia2> so yes, they are peer reviewed
<pleia2> This pretty much wraps up my summary of the project, are there other questions?
<pleia2> < mhall119|work> QUESTION: are you reaching out to LoCo teams to contribute?  we're always looking for something to do for Ubuntu
<pleia2> we'd like to do more of this, thus far we've reached out to some of the leaders in the community (popey with locoteams is aware)
<pleia2> and there are several loco teams who have already approached the project to say that they're ready for material when it comes out - very inspiring for us :)
<pleia2> < doctormo> QUESTION: Does this project compete with the Canonical courses?
<pleia2> not directly, we're all community based, have no certifications tied to our programs are are more geared toward grass roots teaching in locos and things
<pleia2> s/are are/and are
<pleia2> < duanedesign> QUESTION: if you start working on a paticular topic what is the best way to communicate this so their is no duplication
<pleia2> you'll want to update the wiki page to say that
<pleia2> for instance, if you check out https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning/UbuntuDesktopTopics
<pleia2> you'll see a line which says: Ubuntu Desktop Introduction -- Log of this course outline from doctormo, pleia2 developing
<pleia2> just a note like this next to an item is sufficient, and perhaps a link to your in-progress work (whether it's in bzr, moodle, etc)
<pleia2> that way people know you're working on it, and if they want to pitch in they can contact you
<pleia2> < mhall119|work> QUESTION: can you pull existing content from the Ubuntu Pocket Guide of Official Ubuntu Book?
<pleia2> if the license allows for it
<pleia2> if the license doesn't allow for any of it to be duplicated, it can be referenced though
<pleia2> we can say "for more reading - check out $awesome_resource"
<pleia2> < yos> question: I'm new to ubuntu and I don't have any special skills however, I have a lot of free time on my hands...is there anything I can do to contribute?
<pleia2> great question! one of the things we need is reviewers for some of the material who will actually learn from it
<pleia2> you can review it and tell us if it makes sense to you, as someone new to the material :)
<pleia2> you can also help flesh out our outlines, link to documentat that you love and find helpful
<pleia2> and now I have to wrap up this session
<pleia2> thank you everyone! hope to see some new faces over in #ubuntu-learning :)
* akgraner changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to Ubuntu Open Week! https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek (changes made, please check regularly) || Session:  Writing Secure Code - KeesCook  || All questions go in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<kees> pleia2: thanks!
<kees> Hello!
<kees> so, if I understand correctly, discussion and questions are in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<kees> I'll be watching in there for stuff marked with QUESTION:  so feel free to ask away.  :)
<kees> this session is a relatively quick overview on ways to try to keep software more secure when you're writing it.
<kees> I kind of think of it as a "best-pratices" review.
<kees> given that there is a lot of material in this area, I try to talor my topics to langauges people are familiar with.
<kees> as a kind of "show of hands", out of HTML, JavaScript, C, C++, Perl, Python, Ruby, SQL, what are people familiar with?  (just shout out on the -chat channel)
<kees> 21:02 < openweek1_> QUESTION: will this presentation be language specific?
<kees> some of it will be, but I'm trying to tailor the examples to stuff people are familiar with
<kees> there are some "general" best-practices that apply to any language, which I'll cover first
<kees> 21:03 < openweek5__> NONE - where do start?
<kees> I find that programming is easiest to learn when you find something specific you want to change.  so in that case, learn the language of the project you want to change/improve.  :)
<kees> okay, cool, looks like a pretty wide variety.  :)
<kees> I'm adapting this overview from some slides I used to give at talk at the Oregon State University.
<kees> you can find that here: http://outflux.net/osu/oss-security.odp
<kees> the main thing about secure coding is to take an "offensive" attitude when testing your software.
<kees> if you think to yourself "the user would never type _that_", then you probably want to rethink it.  :)
<kees> I have two opposing quotes: "given enough eyeballs all bugs are shallow" - Eric Raymond, and "most people ... don't explicitly look for security bugs" - John Viega
<kees> I think both are true -- if enough people start thinking about how their code could be abused by some bad-guy, we'll be better able to stop them.
<kees> so, when I say "security", what do I mean?
<kees>  mean a bug with how the program functions that allows another person to change the behavior against the desire of the main user
<kees> ^I
<kees> if someone can read all my cookies out of firefox, that's bad.
<kees> if someone can become root on my server, that's bad, etc.
<kees> so, I tend to limit this overview to stuff like gaining access, reading or writing someone else's data, causing outages, etc.
<kees> there are plenty of other security topics (permissions, role separation, MAC, etc etc).  but I'm trying to show how to avoid security bugs.
<kees> I'll start with programming for the web.
<kees> when handling input in CGIs, etc, it needs to be carefully handled.
<kees> the first example of mis-handling input is "Cross Site Scripting" ("XSS").
<kees> if someone puts <b>hi</b> in some form data, and the application returns exactly that, then the bad-guy can send arbitrary HTML
<kees> output needs to be filtered for html entites.
<kees> luckily, a lot of frameworks exist for doing the right thing: Catalyst (Perl), Smarty (PHP), Django (Python), Rail (Ruby).
<kees> e.g. http://research.outflux.net/demo/sql-bad.cgi  putting in  <blink>blah</blind>  as the password, and after submit, it's blinking
<kees> if you use  http://research.outflux.net/demo/sql-better.cgi  you'll see it gets escaped
<kees> another issue is Cross Site Request Forgery (CSRF).
<kees> the issue here is that HTTP was designed so that "GET" (urls) would be for reading data, and "POST" (forms) would be used for changing data.
<kees> if back-end data changes as a result of a "GET", you may have a CSRF.
<kees> I have a demo of this here: http://research.outflux.net/demo/csrf.html
<kees> imdb.com lets users add "favorite" movies to their lists.
<kees> but it operates via a URL http://imdb.com/rg/title-gold/mymovies/mymovies/list?pending&add=0113243
<kees> so, if I put that URL on my website, and you're logged into imdb, I can make changes to your imdb account.
<kees> as a result, it should use POST forms, not GET or direct URLs
<kees> (or use form "nonces", though I won't go into that for the moment)
<kees> another form of input validation is SQL.
<kees> if SQL queries aren't escaped, you can end up in odd situations
<kees> for example:    SELECT secret FROM users WHERE password = '$password'
<kees> with that SQL, what happens if the supplied password is    ' OR 1=1 --
<kees> SELECT secret FROM users WHERE password = '' OR 1=1 --'
<kees> it'll be true and will allow logging in.
<kees> my rule of thumb is to _always_ use the SQL bindings that exist for your language, and to never attempt to manually escape strings.
<kees> every language will have a good way to pass variables into SQL
<kees> for perl
<kees> my $query = $self->{'dbh'}->prepare(
<kees>     "SELECT secret FROM users
<kees>      WHERE password = ?");
<kees> $query->execute($password);
<kees> this lets the SQL library you're using do the escaping.  it's easier to maintain, and it's much safer in the long-run.
<kees> some examples of SQL injection issues are here too: http://research.outflux.net/demo/sql-bad.cgi
<kees> try that with the password as   ' OR 1=1 --    and you'll see the "secret"  :)
<kees> 21:17 < playya_> QUESTION: what about prepared statements?
<kees> that's basically another way to say "bound variables", IIUC.  in the above perl example, $query is a prepared query, and gets execute with the $password variable
<kees> static SQL and program variables should never mix -- using prepared statements/bound variables should always be used.
<kees> another thing about web coding is to think about where files live
<kees> yet another way around the sql-bad.cgi example is to just download the SQLite database it's using.
<kees> so, either keeping files out the documentroot, or protecting them: http://research.outflux.net/demo/htaccess-better
<kees> moving from web to more language agnostic stuff ...
<kees> when your need to use "system()", go find a better method.
<kees> if you're constructing a system()-like call with a string, you'll run into problems.  you always want to implement this with an array.
<kees> python's subprocess.call() for example.
<kees> this stops the program from being run in a shell (where arguments may be processes or split up)
<kees> for example, http://research.outflux.net/demo/progs/system.pl
<kees> no good: system("ls -la $ARGV[0]");
<kees> better: system("ls","-la",$ARGV[0]);
<kees> best: system("ls","-la","--",$ARGV[0]);
<kees> in array context, the arguments are passed directly.  in string context, the first argument may be processed in other ways by the shell.
<kees> if the first argument is  ;cat /etc/passwd     then the first runs   ls -la ;cat /etc/passwd   and the shell splits it into two commands
<kees> in the latter, "ls" gets an argument of ";cat /etc/passwd" which isn't a valid file name, and it correctly screams about it
<kees> and "--" is used to indicate to ls that option arguments have finished to stop $ARGV[0] from leading with a "-" and having ls blow up again.
<kees> handling temporary files is another area to be careful with.
<kees> static files or files based on process id, etc, shouldn't be used since they are easily guessed.
<kees> all languages have some kind of reasonable safe temp-file-creation method.
<kees> File::Temp in perl, tempfile in python, "mktemp" in shell, etc.
<kees> i.e. bad:  TEMPFILE="/tmp/kees.$$"
<kees> good: TEMPFILE=$(mktemp -t kees-XXXXXX)
<kees> examples of this as well as a pid-racer are in http://research.outflux.net/demo/progs/
<kees> programmers should think about the sensitivity of what they have in memory.  normally, it's not a big deal, but what about passwords?
<kees> keep data that is normally encrypted out of memory.
<kees> so things like passwords should be erased from memory (rather than just freed) once they're done being used
<kees> example of this is http://research.outflux.net/demo/progs/readpass.c
<kees> once the password is done being used:
<kees>     fclose(stdin);               // drop system buffers
<kees>     memset(password,0,PASS_LEN); // clear out password storage memory
<kees> then you don't have to worry about leaving it in core-dump files, etc
<kees> if it's not cleared, it could hang around in memory.
<kees> 21:26 < erUSUL> QUESTION: for passwords use mlocked mem ?
<kees> this is an even better approach, yes.  this keeps the memory from ever being written to disk, in the case of swapping.
<kees> note, however, that if you hibernate to an unencrypted partition, mlock() won't save you.  :(
<kees> for details on mlock, see "man mlock".  (also note that there is only so much room for mlock memory)
<kees> http://manpages.ubuntu.com/manpages/karmic/en/man3/mlock.3posix.html
<kees> for encrypted communications, using SSL should actually check certificates.
<kees> clients should use a Certificate Authority list (apt-get install ca-cerificates, and use /etc/ssl/certs)
<kees> servers should get a certificate authority.
<kees> the various SSL bindings will let you define a "check cert" option, which is, unfortunately, not on by default.  :(
<kees> this is very language-specific, though, so it requires some level of research.  but SSL without cert checking isn't very protective.
<kees> one item I mentioned early on as a security issue is blocking access to a service, usually through a denial of service.
<kees> one accidental way to make a server program vulnerable to this is to use "assert()" or "abort()" in the code.
<kees> normally, using asserts is a great habit to catch errors in client software.
<kees> unfortunately, if an assert can be reached while you're processing network traffic, it'll take out the entire service.
<kees> those kinds of programs should abort on if absolutely unable to continue (and should gracefully handle unexpected situations)
<kees> switching over to C/C++ specific issues for a bit...
<kees> one of C's weaknesses is its handling of arrays (and therefore strings).  since it doesn't have built-in boundary checking, it's up to the programmer to do it right.
<kees> as a result, lengths of buffers should always be used when performing buffer operations.
<kees> functions like strcpy, sprintf, gets, strcat should not be used, because they don't know how big a buffer might be
<kees> using strncpy, snprintf, fgets, etc is much safer.
<kees> though be careful you're measureing the right buffer.  :)
<kees> char buf[80];
<kees> strncpy(buf,argv[1],strlen(argv[1]))    is no good
<kees> you need to use buf's len, not the source string.
<kees> it's not "how much do I want to copy" but rather "how much space can I use?"
<kees> since Ubuntu 8.10 (Intrepid), the compiler will attempt to fix up unsafe function usage with safe ones, if it can.
<kees> 21:30 < playya_> QUESTION: isn't it better to loose a service for some time because of assert instead of having an owned machine?
<kees> certainly, but the assert catches an issue -- the code should just say "oh dear" and drop the connection, etc.  i.e. graceful error handling instead of just shutting down.
<kees> if there is genuinely no way to recover, then it makes sense to shut down.  but those situations are rare.
<kees> another tiny glitch is with format strings.  printf(buffer);  should be done with  printf("%s", buffer);  otherwise, whatever is in buffer would be processes for format strings
<kees> instead of "hello %x"  you'd get  "hello 258347dad"
<kees> I actually have a user on my system named %x%x%n%n just so I can catch format string issues in Gnome more easily.  :)
<kees> format strings get passed from high-level functions, though, so it's not always obvious.
<kees> gtk's dialogs, for example, will call sprintf on passed buffers, so those dialogs should use  "%s", msg);  instead of  msg);
<kees> since Ubuntu 8.10 (Intrepid), the compiler will yell about possible format string issues, so those warnings are good to pay attention to.
<kees> (for more details on the security features of the C compiler, see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CompilerFlags )
<kees> 21:34 < kennethvenken> QUESTION: are there tools that check for these kind of pitfalls?
<kees> the compiler is in the best position to do it, so that's where I've spent the most time looking
<kees> the last bit to go over for C in this overview is calculating memory usage.
<kees> (this actually applies to C++ too)
<kees> if you're about to allocate memory for something, where did the size come from?
<kees> malloc(x * y)  could wrap around an "int" value and result in less than x * y being allocated.
<kees> this one is less obvious, but the example is here: http://research.outflux.net/demo/progs/alloc.c
<kees> malloc(5 * 15) will be safe, but what about malloc (1294967000 * 10)
<kees> checking for this is simple, but many people aren't in a habit of testing for it:
<kees>     if (x >= (INT_MAX / y - 1) ) {  ....
<kees>     x=atoi(argv[1]);
<kees>     y=atoi(argv[2]);
<kees> that "if" will be true when  x * y  would overflow and wrap back around.
<kees> C++ has a similar issue with the "new" operator, when allocating an array of objects
<kees> if an object is "x" bytes big, and you need an array "y" long, this is effectively doing a  malloc( x * y ) all over again.
<kees> so, the biggest thing to help defend against these various glitches is testing.
<kees> try putting HTML into form data, URLs, etc
<kees> see what kinds of files are written in /tmp
<kees> try putting giant numbers through allocations
<kees> put format strings as inputs
<kees> try to think about how information is entering a program, and how that data is formulated.
<kees> 21:39 < erUSUL> QUESTION: Do not most people use malloc wrappers to avoid this kind of things like xmalloc ?
<kees> it'd be nice if it was more of a standard practice, yes.
<kees> the xmalloc's I've seen just check return codes, though, they don't validate the math.
<kees> i.e.  xmalloc(x * y) still has the same problem.
<kees> something like xallow_array(x, y) which then did the INT_MAX tests would be better.  (this is what image libraries have moved to do it, since they're constantly allocating 2d buffers, etc)
<kees> there are a lot of unit-test frameworks (python-unit, Test::More, CxxTest, check)
<kees> give them a try.  :)
<kees> writing tests is great for finding bugs in general (and security bugs too)
<kees> as for projects in general, it's great if a few days during a development cycle can be dedicated to looking for security issues.
<kees> that's about it from me; it was a quick overview.  :)
<kees> I've left some time for questions, if there are any?
<kees> anything about secure coding, security in ubuntu, security in general?
<kees> I can also answer questions about video formats and ubuntu development processes.  ;)
<kees> 21:44 < amik> any particualr dangers in Java (other than sql stuff)?
<kees> I don't know of any language-specific issues with Java, but the all the stanard stuff (tempfiles, ssl, etc) applies.
<kees> 21:45 < jtatum> QUESTION: can you recommend any reading material for various types of security testing?
<kees> specific to testing, it's a little iffy.  security testing tends to either fall into "software testing" or "pentration testing", which can be very different things.
<kees> as for books, I recommend:
<kees> Secure Programming Cookbook for C and C++ by Viega, Messier
<kees> The Art of Software Security Assessment by Dowd, McDonald, Schuh
<kees> Fuzzing for Software Security Testing and Quality Assurance by Takanen, DeMott, Miller
<kees> and for online, Secure Programming for Linux and Unix HOWTO by David Weeler http://www.dwheeler.com/secure-programs/
<kees> 21:45 < sebsebseb> QUESTION: Apparantly  OpenBSD is the most secure OS is this true?
<kees> this obviously depends on one's definition of "most secure OS".  At DefCon in CTF, considered by some to be the most dangerous network in the world, the organizers traditionally use OpenBSD.
<kees> that said, OpenBSD sure misses a lot of features I like to use on my desktop.  :)
<kees> 21:46 < kennethvenken> 'QUESTION: what kind of code analysis techniques are applied to source code written for ubuntu?
<kees> there is no specific code analysis that happens for all ubuntu software, but lots of people use a lot of different systems to doing code analysis.
<kees> for example, coverity runs their tests frequently, "sparse" is used on the linux kernel.
<kees> when I do audits, it's a combination of manual investigation (looking at how data passes through the code) and looking at the build logs to see what the compiler is screaming about with the various warnings for format strings, unchecked return codes, etc.
<kees> 21:49 < openweek1_> QUESTION: some python specific materials about security programing?
<kees> I don't have anything handy, though I think David Wheeler's website has good general stuff in it
<kees> 21:50 < amik> QUESTION: any thoughts on how to get developers to get into the 'defensive security' state of mind in daily work?
<kees> this is, I think, a matter of making people more paranoid.  ;)  thinking about how software can be misused is key.
<kees> that said, it is sometimes very hard to do this when coding to a dealine, etc.
<kees> 21:51 < sebsebseb> kees: What's CTF  and Defcon?   well  Defcon is I guess some kind of security conference or somethign
<kees> sorry, I should have explained that more.  DefCon in an annual computer security conference (it follows the more corporate "Blackhat" conference).  CTF is Capture the Flag, a challenge that runs the entire conference where teams try to break into eachother's systems to earn points.
<kees> great fun.  :)
<kees> 21:53 < kennethvenken> QUESTION: are you Dutch? ;) I'm from Belgium
<kees> I'm half-dutch (hence my americanized last name "Cook").  I'm named after my grandfather.  :)
<kees> thank you everyone for listening!
<kees> I'll clear out of the way now.  if other questions pop to mind, feel free to catch me on freenode or via email @ubuntu.com.  thanks!
* akgraner changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to Ubuntu Open Week! https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek (changes made, please check regularly) || Session:   Getting KDE 4 ready for LTS - JonathanRiddell  || All questions go in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<Riddell> Good evening friends
<Riddell> Getting KDE 4 ready for LTS
<Riddell> this will be a bit of a ramble about Kubuntu and KDE 4
<Riddell> anyone here to listen?
<Riddell> awooga
<Riddell> and yes, you need to reply in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, this channel is special
<Riddell> KDE 4 has been a long journey.  I mean pure dead long.  And we're no there yet.
<Riddell> But nearly
<Riddell> World domination is around the corner
<Riddell> it's very exciting
<Riddell> My first KDE conference was in 2003 and we were talking about KDE 4 then
<Riddell> You see, at the time KDE was good
<Riddell> Some people had planned to make a free software desktop environment and had succeeded.
<Riddell> There was a desktop shell, a web browser, a file manager, a kick arse music player.  Everything you needed
<Riddell> But it wasn't taking over the world
<Riddell> It was good, but it wasn't notably better than the rest.
<Riddell> Along the way Windows had become not quite so crap and Mac OS had been rewritten into something really very impressive, there was also someone called Miguel who kept submitting patches to KDE that got rejected, I heard he went off and did something else
<Riddell> So in order to take over the world we had to do better than good.  Incremental improvements on what KDE was wouldn't cut it.  We had to take a long term view and make something rocking.
<Riddell> As it happens we had a good technical foundation to make something rocking on top of, the Qt library, which was being re-written for the multi-platform bling enabled world of the next decade
<Riddell> Qt 4 came along and that allowed a whole lot more to be done with desktop applications.  It could make them beautiful.
<Riddell> Qt 4 is a big step in taking over the world.  When compositing came along people thought that was beautiful but it only added beauty between the applications.  To have a truely beautiful desktop you need a powerful toolkit which can make beauty easy.  Fortunately Qt 4 does that
<Riddell> So KDE had to be rewritten and this took some time.  It had to be made cross platform, easy to programme for complex things and most of all it had to be beautiful
<Riddell> and when I say beautiful, artwork is a big part of that, but it's a whole user experience
<Riddell> Needless to say this affected Kubuntu a lot
<Riddell> Kubuntu is a KDE distro.  We believe that KDE is the best desktop platform and so the best distribution can be made from KDE
<Riddell> Our hope is to make KDE shine
<Riddell> which will make lots of happy users
<Riddell> So back in hardy time KDE 4.0 was launched
<Riddell> This was not perfect timing because 4.0 was a complete rewrite and as such missed a lot of the stuff which had been there before.  It was a lot more beautiful but that's not great when you can't play your music.
<Riddell> or whatever the important thing is for you that's critical but missing
<Riddell> 4.0 came out when it did because it had been ages in the making and open source needs people to release often
<Riddell> else the developers get bored
<Riddell> and you don't want that, then they'll go getting boyfriends and girlfriends and stop doing important things like coding
<Riddell> this ment our development at hardy time was split between KDE 3 and 4
<Riddell> which isn't ideal for an LTS which needs all your quality assurance attention
<Riddell> so it wasn't an LTS, which was sad
<Riddell> akgraner: any questions?
<akgraner> slacker_nl> QUESTION: so 4.0 got released because of social activities of developers ;)
<Riddell> it got released because if you're developing in the open source way you need feedback and eventually you need more feedback than a beta will give you
<Riddell> there were plenty of warning that 4.0 would eat your babies but probably not enough
<Riddell> but we did have KDE 3 and 4 available as sebsebseb points out so there was an option for everyone
<Riddell> 4.0 was pretty but it wasn't beautiful for users.  however for developers it was, the new APIs and pillars of KDE available were a big improvement on what was there before
<Riddell> Kubuntu now has an LTS coming up again
<Riddell> Lucid will be released in April and it will be LTS for Kubuntu
<Riddell> that means it has to be good enough that people can run it at their work or in a public library or whatever and should they need to call Canonical to get help the guys in Montreal can answer without banging their heads on their desks
<Riddell> the last 18 months of KDE development has been making sure all the gaps are filled which need to be filled for users
<Riddell> this has included some significant gaps
<Riddell> stuff like network connection is annoying if it's missing
<Riddell> and because Kubuntu is a KDE distribution and sticks closely to KDE, whenever KDE has a gap, that means we get one too
<Riddell> which hurts a lot for say, network connection
<Riddell> there's other issues like that which need to be filled
<Riddell> fortunately the important ones are getting filled
<Riddell> network manager is working well for most cases, bluetooth has a new maintainer, we wrote printer management tools etc
<Riddell> but that does all have to be polished for the LTS, which often involves buying beers for the relevent KDE developers
<Riddell> akgraner: questions?
<akgraner> <slacker_nl> QUESTION: how many users use kubuntu-desktop? (think this data is available with the popularity-contest package)
<Riddell> honestly no idea
<Riddell> you could get a relative percentage from popularity contest but I've not looked at it for a while
<Riddell> I expect it's gone down since KDE 3 days
<Riddell> KDE 4 has been a painful but necessary journey as I say
<akgraner> <sandsmark> QUESTION: Is anyone looking into Ubuntu One integration with for example Akonadi?
<Riddell> and I expect that once KDE 4 has all the gaps filled in, it'll take over the world!
<akgraner> <slacker_nl> QUESTION: what direction will kubuntu take with regards to the Software center and kpackagekit?
<Riddell> sandsmark: yes but not enough for it to be packaged
<Riddell> till adams did an akonadi plugin to get akonadi talking to the couchdb address book from ubuntu one
<Riddell> but I don't think it got completed to the extent it would be useful for users
<Riddell> so anyone who wants to pick that up and run with it would be most welcome
<Riddell> slacker_nl: at the moment we're using kpackagekit because it's an upstream project and that means we don't have to maintain our own application
<Riddell> as a smallish limited team we don't really have the resoures to be maintaining large applications on our own, we're much better at packaging and integrating other people's apps
<Riddell> software centre is a nice UI, which I find kpackagekit's UI could benefit from being simplified in various ways
<Riddell> but I havn't seen any new features in it, I think it's just a new UI
<akgraner> #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<akgraner> <jpds> slacker_nl: popcon.ubuntu.com
<akgraner> <slacker_nl> jpds: didn't know the data was publicly available
<akgraner> <slacker_nl> will have a look
<akgraner> <sandsmark> akgraner: hum, how does one retract questions? :-P
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<Riddell> I expect we'll stick with kpackagekit, it has notable flaws like not being able to warn before installed unsigned packages but that's being fixed now
<akgraner> <jpds> slacker_nl: not in a very good format but the raw data is there.
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<akgraner> <akgraner> sandsmark, just let me know before I post them..:-)
<akgraner> <slacker_nl> jpds: i see
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<akgraner> <amik> QUESTION: what percentage of canonical resources are given to kubuntu? how much can u actually get done?
<akgraner> sorry I grabbed to much////
<Riddell> I doubt you can put a percentage on what canonical gives kubuntu
<Riddell> there's me on the desktop team, agateau on the experience team, and a lot of time given irregiarly from others on the Platform team
<Riddell> then there's shipit which is very very expensive
<Riddell> and the server hosting and whatnot
<Riddell> it all adds up to a lot, but I can't put a figure on it
<Riddell> so where was I?
<Riddell> oh yes, I was saying that KDE 4 had gaps which are being filled
<Riddell> and that it's the best platform
<Riddell> Kubuntu also has issues
<Riddell> we're a rocking team of beautiful people
<Riddell> but we're not perfect
<Riddell> we've had a lot of bad rep from our translations for example, our translations go through launchpad and for various reasons that has caused problems which understandly annoys people
<Riddell> we also package every release of KDE and major apps like KOffice as backports, but that takes a lot of QA which sometimes hasn't been done well enough
<Riddell> sometimes we add patches to KDE which havn't been tested enough or which add new strings which then aren't translated
<Riddell> there's good reasons for doing all the above, but when they cause problems that annoys people and quite rightly so
<Riddell> so with an LTS coming up it's time to review such practices and kick them into shape
<Riddell> some of our more beautiful Kubuntu developers have written a document called.. Project Timelord
<Riddell> which is the sort of name that only apachelogger could come up with
<Riddell> at UDS and over the next cycle or three we'll be working hard to make sure our QA is kept high so that now KDE 4 is coming into its own as a world beating platform
<Riddell> .. we'll be best able to take that platform to the users
<Riddell> akgraner: next?
<akgraner> mmiicc> QUESTION: Does KDE get any help from Nokia?
<Riddell> well Nokia funds Qt development and KDE is built on Qt, so that's a multi million euro help there
<Riddell> they hire a couple of KDE developers and sponsor KDE conferences and developer sprints
<Riddell> they also give jobs to a lot of KDE developers who go on to work on Qt (which is a mixed blessing since they often stop doing so much KDE stuff)
<Riddell> of course Nokia's interest in KDE and Qt is self serving, they want to own the best platform for cross desktop development so that people know and love Qt
<Riddell> and they want that working on their phones so people know and love developing for Nokia phones
<Riddell> which is all quite mutially compatible with KDE so we're happy with the setup
<akgraner> <sebsebseb> QUESTION:  Is it possible to get  a little sound on  KDE 4's  KDM,  like the old GDM found in 9.04 and earlier.   Yes sound when it first loads up or a username and password isn't  put in properly.   I don't like GDM 2, because it can't be themed like the old one,  so  I will use KDM to replace it now that it looks good with a blue bubble theme, unlike the KDE 3 version.
<Riddell> and Qt is now LGPL and open source style-developped so that's great
<Riddell> sebsebseb: hmm, I don't think there's any code in KDM for sound.  it would be easy to add because KDE's Phonon API makes it very easy to do that, although I don't know if upstream would be interested
<Riddell> akgraner: next?
<akgraner> <keffie_jayx> QUESTION: Thank you and the Kubuntu team for such great work on the Netbook Edition. How can one help with the development of the Netbook remix?
<Riddell> this is the topic I was just coming to
<Riddell> free software is taking off in interesting ways and netbooks are one of the most interesting
<Riddell> Microsoft's illegal monopoly practices have made it very hard for linux to get onto laptops, but netbooks are allowing that to happen
<Riddell> the Plasma team (who make KDE's desktop shell application) have been working on a netbook interface
<Riddell> and we put that into our netbook edition of Kubuntu which came out with 9.10
<Riddell> we have a good partnership with upsteam there
<Riddell> upstream didn't get it all working for 4.3 so there are some gaps that need filled
<Riddell> and of course for Kubuntu we need people packaging, bug triaging, testing, all the tasks that Kubuntu's normal desktop edition needs
<Riddell> you can join us in #kubuntu-netbook to help out
<Riddell> or talk to the plasma guys to help out on the user interface
<Riddell> akgraner: next?
<akgraner> amik> QUESTION: how is KDE doing in general in the linux world as compared to GNOME?
<Riddell> well, this is a question filled with political pitfalls
<Riddell> Gnome is a fine desktop, it's doing well, but is it taking over the world?
<Riddell> maybe a bit, but not enough
<Riddell> KDE has gone through this re-write process to help it take over the world, and that's not complete, but any day now it will be, and then we'll rule!
<Riddell> as a developer, KDE has the best platform to write for.  as a user you can pick what works best
<Riddell> akgraner: next?
<akgraner> <rhkfin> QUESTION: What's the nokia-pim-suite in KDE svn: http://websvn.kde.org/branches/work/nokia-pim-suite/
<Riddell> not a skoobie
<Riddell> I guess it's something mobile related but I've not heard of that before
<Riddell> kdepim is still going through the KDE 4 process
<Riddell> the apps are ported to KDE 4 but most aren't ported to akonadi, the new data management server
<Riddell> so there's loads of activity going on there
<Riddell> akgraner: next?
<akgraner> <slacker_nl> QUESTION: what does kubuntu needs more, testers, bug triagers or packagers?
<Riddell> a bit of everything
<Riddell> it just depends on the time, today for example we've been packaging KDE 4.3.3
<Riddell> so more packaging would be good there
<Riddell> but now we'll need testers for those packages
<Riddell> so more testers wanted there
<Riddell> and once the packages are out people will report bugs and we'll need quick bug triagers to sort out the important ones from those
<Riddell> join us in #kubuntu-devel to help :)
<Riddell> akgraner: next?
<akgraner> <rhkfin> QUESTION: Any changes KDE & Gnome will join their resources to become the One Desktop to Rule Them All? Say 5, 10 years from now?
<Riddell> that's not really technically possible, you'd need to rewrite Gnome in Qt and I don't think there's much appetite for that
<Riddell> it's a shame we have this desktop split, it's a horrible waste of resources
<Riddell> but well, KDE was here first :)
<Riddell> akgraner: next?
<akgraner> <kennethvenken> QUESTION: I haven't tried Kubuntu yet, (plan to run it in a VM soon). What are, in your opinion the major benefits with KDE in user experience over GNOME? What do you think of the new GNOME Shell?
<Riddell> as a sweeping generalisation KDE is better integrated, it has more robust technical grounding and often has more options for users
<Riddell> but for the most part you can just run the apps you find work best for you, it's up to us KDE developers to make sure you care about our apps :)
<Riddell> I've not seen Gnome shell, I've only heard Ubuntu Desktop developers say "it's a disaster" but they could well be wrong
<Riddell> akgraner: any more?
<akgraner> not yet..
<akgraner> <lmentop> QUESTION: when will we see Gubuntu with KDE taking over?
<Riddell> once all the gaps in KDE 4 are filled
<Riddell> although I'm more interested in taking over windows and mac than I am gnome
<Riddell> that's where the real market share is
<Riddell> akgraner: next?
<akgraner> <slacker_nl> QUESTION: what is the ppa for kde packages (for lucid/karmic)?
<Riddell> our PPAs are under the ~kubuntu-ppa team in launchpad
<Riddell> we have an experimental one for crazy stuff, a staging one where we build packages and a backports one for releasing updates
<Riddell> currently staging has 4.3.3 building away, you could try to install it to test it but it's not complete so it may well not install or it may break stuff, that's the fun of testing
<Riddell> akgraner: next?
<akgraner> <slacker_nl> QUESTION: any thoughts on timelord?
<Riddell> I think I gave some thoughts above, it covers a lot of our important issues
<Riddell> it doesn't give answers to everything, the branding and marketing question is something that's not easy to conclude
<Riddell> I sympathise but mostly disagree with stopping using rosetta, but the rest is about where I think we want to be going
<Riddell> akgraner: next?
<akgraner> <amik> QUESTIONS: what work remains to be done in KDE until they catch up with themselves? (for lack of a better phrase...)
<Riddell> network management isn't complete.  there's an update coming along with KDE 4.3.3 which should fix support for VPNs and GSM but there's probably more to be done there
<Riddell> I need to finish the printing management stuff
<Riddell> kpackagekit needs porting to the new policykit to get new features and the UI could be improved a lot
<Riddell> bluetooth I mentioned
<Riddell> there's no ibus frontend which means no same CKJ integration, and oriental people quite like being able to write on their computers
<Riddell> akgraner: all done?
<akgraner> yep I believe so..
<Riddell> so in conclusion, KDE 4 is going to take over the world.  it's a long hard job this and we're still getting there
<Riddell> but it's the best platform and that is turning into the best desktop
<Riddell> all helpers welcome in #kubuntu-devel
<Riddell> and remember: by becoming a Kubuntu developer you automatically become good looking
<Riddell> thanks for listening
<Riddell> < rhkfin> QUESTION: does KDE have a community manager, if, who?
<Riddell> not that I know of, one of the charms of KDE is it's quite non-heirarchical and everybody gets on well with everyone else with very few exceptions, it's a great community to be in
* jcastro changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to Ubuntu Open Week! https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek (changes made, please check regularly) || Sessions resume at 1500UTC || All questions go in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<freezenode> interesting class
<sebsebseb>  
<sebsebseb> bye bye channel mute for now :D
<sebsebseb> :)
<sebsebseb>  
<Sertse> weee!
<slacker_nl> night all
<sebsebseb> slacker_nl: bye
<jcastro> whoops
 * jcastro whistles
<Solarion> heh
<Solarion> there should be a perl script for this
<sebsebseb> jcastro: What are  the allow messages from outside and   no messages from outside  modes anyway?
<jcastro> I dunno
<Solarion> plus a perl script to use something like festival to make it into a podcast or to actively listen instead of read
<jcastro> hah, that would be fun to listen to
<Solarion> there's probably an irc module for python too, if yer inta that
<sebsebseb> jcastro: I was just thinking it's Freenode a network, where ops aren't meant to be shown all the time in a channel really
<Solarion> could even make it all gooey
<jcastro> sebsebseb, dunno, I usually fiddle enough buttons to get the job done
<sebsebseb> jcastro: for what modes?
<jcastro> just the +m usually
<jcastro> that n was an accident
<jcastro> I don't even know what that does
<Solarion> http://freenode.net/using_the_network.shtml
<Solarion> channel +n?
<jcastro> I think so
<Solarion> in irc, you send messages to the channel
<Solarion> if you're clever, you can /msg #channel message
<Solarion> even if you're not on it
<Solarion> I think that shuts that option down
<jcastro> that makes sense
<Solarion> has been a while since I telnetted to port 6667. :)
<Solarion> (so I may have forgotten or mis-remember)
<Solarion> jcastro: try /msg #testchannel-1230 foo
<Solarion> also worth noting is that banning without kicking will silence someone. :)
<sebsebseb> Solarion: What's 6667 and why you doing telnet?
<Solarion> sebsebseb: a default ircd port
<Solarion> telnetting to a port will let you talk directly to whatever's listening
<sebsebseb> default IRC server port ok
<Solarion> telnet mailserver 25 will send mail, if you can talk SMTP and you don't hit its filters
<joaopinto> Solarion, who doesn't ;)
<Solarion> heh
<crlosdniel> hi
<seth556> hello
<ezzieyguywuf> hi
<seth556> what is 1500 utc in est?
<aim1159> seth556: that's 3 p.m. Greenwich time.
<jrwren_> 10am
<seth556> ok thanks
<jrwren_> EST is -5 UTC
<aim1159> seth556: you can go to timeanddate.com and check over there
<jpds> Or you can run: "date; date -u" in a terminal.
<lmentop_> if you download the ical file and load it into a calendar app it will set all the times to your local time as long as you have your timezone set up
#ubuntu-classroom 2009-11-04
<aim1159> seth556: go here http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedform.html put the Location is UTC/GMT and set up the date and time (date is important due to daylight savings)
<aim1159> then press show results in world clock and you can see a table. find yor place there.
<Xiella> Ack, that's 4 am for me
<sakekasi> hello
<sakekasi> when is the next lecture?
<sakekasi> (in how many minutes)
<akgraner> Sakarias, not for hours yet...
<sakekasi> hello?
<jef_> hello
<sakekasi> do you know in how many minutes the next lecture is?
<pleia2> sakekasi: 14.5 hours from now
<sakekasi> thank you
<EryxNuri> you Serious?
<jpds> EryxNuri: Quite.
<EryxNuri> damn . . .
<qaz_> howdy all
<timbojimbo> hello?
<timbojimbo> hey I am curios about a few packages that were installed during the upgrade to karma. the packages are desktopcouch, libmakick++2, libmagickcor2, and libmagickwand2. What are the packages and what do they do?
<IdleOne> timbojimbo: please ask in #ubuntu
<IdleOne> timbojimbo: you can also use /msg ubottu info package_name
<timbojimbo> hey I am curios about a few packages that were installed during the upgrade to karma. the packages are desktopcouch, libmakick++2, libmagickcor2, and libmagickwand2. What are the packages and what do they do?
<MenZa> timbojimbo: /msg ubottu info <packagename>
<MenZa> timbojimbo: alternatively, apt-cache show <packagename>
<timbojimbo> MenZa, yeah i did that but it didn't really clue me in too much as to what it does. i guess time to hit the wiki's
<MenZa> apt-cache show packagename will be a lot more verbose than messaging ubottu
<timbojimbo> appreciate it
<dom___> server
<dom___> hi. just installed Xchat under Hardy, and want to connect to this channel through it. can someone tell me what this network is?
<MenZa> freenode, dom___
<MenZa> dom___: it may be referenced as "Ubuntu IRC Server" in xchat.
<dom___> thanks, Menza -- let me give that a shot
<dom___> i don't see either in the list of Networks - do I need to add it?
<MenZa> Perhaps.
<MenZa> It's called freenode - chat.freenode.net - on port 6667.
<dom___> it does have 'Ubuntu Servers'
<Bradj47> what's he trying to do?
<MenZa> Add freenode.
<MenZa> dom___: That might be it.
<MenZa> Bradj47: to xchat.
<Bradj47> i thought it was in there by default
<Bradj47> it was either irc.freenode.net or irc.ubuntu.com
<dom___> hmm. i'll have to play around with it. so, what's the topic today?
<ShaunPhilly> HI.  So I'm having issues getting my Xubuntu to see my shared folders on a vista machine
<ShaunPhilly> need to transfer some files
<IdleOne> #xubuntu or #ubuntu for support ShaunPhilly
<ShaunPhilly> x
<akk> Maybe someone should set the topic ... people keep asking general questions here and in #u-c-c.
<IdleOne> I would but I can't
<ShaunPhilly> 9.10
<akk> yeah, Someone With Authority
<IdleOne> ShaunPhilly: type /join #xubuntu and ask in there
<running_rabbit07> is there an class type things going on here? Or, is it ask a Q for an A?
<IdleOne> running_rabbit07: check out https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
<running_rabbit07> IdleOne: thanx for the link
<s0n1c> Hey everyone. I just updated to ubuntu 9.10. I like what I see so far. but my touchpad on my laptop doesn't work. my usb mouse works, but the touchpad doesn't any quick fixes yet?
<nalioth> s0n1c: support is in #ubuntu  :)
<running_rabbit07> you may want to ask on #ubuntuforums
<s0n1c> thanks you, sorry. I was told to go to this room
<bluregard> hello
<bluregard> I hope everyone is well this evening
<timinator94> Hi what is so good about karmic
<timinator94> vs jaunty
<timinator94> Hi what is so good about karmic
<openweek1> my headphone is not working in in ubuntu..i have acer 5638 laptop.....i installed ubuntu 9.04..
<nalioth> openweek1: this isn't a support channel except by prior arrangement  :/
<nalioth> openweek1: please use #ubuntu for support
<darkchest> i have a toshiba laptop running 9.4... do you recommend i wait a little for upgrading issues to be resolved before upgrading myself?
<MarkDude> nalioth,  wrong channel please use #ubuntu for support
<darkchest> k
<darkchest> #ubuntu for support
<darkchest> #ubuntu
<MarkDude> oops darkchest  please use #ubuntu for support ,
<darkchest> how do u moove from one channel to another?
<MarkDude> right click on the > #ubuntu then click join channel
<MarkDude> >>> #ubuntu <<<
<MarkDude> if that wont work let me know
<darkchest> nope... im using mozilla on 9.4
<darkchest> it just shows back, reload...
<nigel_nb> darkchest: just click on it
<darkchest> it opened
<darkchest> thanks
<nigel_nb> darkchest: no problem
<darkchest> #exit
<diC> distupgrade 9.04 - 9.10 stopped at 'bluez'-programm i restart the system but nnow get this error: "init: mountall main process (367) terminated with status 127" what can i do?
<nigel_nb> diC: ask in #ubuntu
<openweek0> #karmic
<gopi_> hello all
<gopi_> Iam new to ubuntu
<gopi_> may I know how to play flah player ,..which is in swf extension
<aan> Hello
<DKcross> alguno habla espaÃ±ol aquÃ­?
<z-itou16> Dkcross
<z-itou16> ve a este canal
<DKcross> z-itou16,  hola
<z-itou16> #ubuntu-centroamerica-chat
<DKcross> no yo se donde estoy :)
<z-itou16> aqui es solo en ingles
<DKcross> mira maÃ±ana tengo mi tema
<DKcross> y mi colaborador con la traducciÃ³n no puede
<DKcross> puedes ayudarme?
<DKcross> yo tengo un inglÃ©s muy bÃ¡sico y iba a usar ayuda
<z-itou16> uyy me facinaria pero ahorita toy trabajando en proyecto de la universidad
<DKcross> ah bueno, no importa gracias de toda forma
<z-itou16> trata en el channel que te di
<Headbuster> hello
<z-itou16> #ubuntu-centroamerica-chat o #ubuntu-centroamerica
<DKcross> ah, no man te digo maÃ±ana tengo mi conferencia en el open week
<Headbuster> :P
<DKcross> el viernes en el open week en espaÃ±ol
<DKcross> Headbuster,  hello how are you?
<Headbuster> Fine thank you! I am preparing to install ubuntu now :)
<DKcross> sorry we are talking some private things Headbuster
<DKcross> lol
<DKcross> i just kidding man
<Headbuster> Que tal :D
<DKcross> Headbuster,  are you kidding:|
<Headbuster> What?
<Headbuster> Why?
<DKcross> Headbuster,  entonces sos skpeaker?
<DKcross> perdon, entonces hablas espaÃ±ol
<DKcross> ?
<Headbuster> Si :D
<DKcross> Headbuster, a bueno
<DKcross> de donde eres?
<Headbuster> Bulgaria
<DKcross> tu si me puedes ayudar a traducir algunas cosas? estoy preparando mi tema para maÃ±ana
<DKcross> bueno ahora mÃ¡s tarde.
<Headbuster> Ok I will have to go now
<DKcross> today i will talk about screencast
<Headbuster> btw I am learning spanish at school
<Headbuster> and I am not so good at  it Lol
<DKcross> ah... ok well dont worry
<Headbuster> Time to install ubuntu! Bye :)
<asymptote> anyone here
<shahan> hi all
<shahan> any one here who can help me about connecting internet
<shahan> ?
<openweek5> so tell us what is the problem
<shahan> any one here who can help me to connect internet on my UBUNTU
<d0wn> shahan: see #ubuntu for that
<openweek5> is anybody having trouble with wathing movies on divx afer upgrading to 9.10?
<shahan> if any wants...please ...
<asymptote> these questions
<shahan> I am not facing problem
<asymptote> are really for #ubuntu
<asymptote> not the classroom
<asymptote> or #ubuntu-forums
<shahan> I have installed the version
<shahan> 9.10
<d0wn> shahan this isn't the support channel
<asymptote> shahan: we have no way of verifying that
<asymptote> just because you say you installed it
<asymptote> doesn't make it credible
<asymptote> you could have any version installed and just be coming to the channel and saying you have 9.10 installed
<d0wn> lol
<openweek5> OK sorry
<openweek5> I didn't understand what this chat was for...
<asymptote> well, sorry or not the incident will have to be reported
<asymptote> this chat is for classroom instruction
<asymptote> if you have questions about using ubuntu you need to go to #ubuntu
<openweek5> ok, thankyou
<shahan> may I get any support channel address?
<shahan> As I am a New user
<asymptote> it's #ubuntu
<ussher_> i caught the "go here" sign on the forums http://ubuntuforums.org/  what is the
<ussher_> ubuntu open week about?
<asymptote> how about you google it ?
<ussher_> thought id come here and see lots of questions and i could just watch.....seams quiet though
<asymptote> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
<asymptote> please read the documentation before asking questions.
<hhh> alop2
<hhh> ade sesiapa disini
<hhh> !!!!
<hhh> hmmmm
<hhh> let's party!!!!
<riddlebox> karmic didn't really turn out the way it should've
<riddlebox> why did they change the menus?
<Treenaks> they did?
<riddlebox> the new grub takes ages to load for me
<riddlebox> well not ages, but takes much longer than the previous one.
<riddlebox> I don't really like it. =(
<asg8516> Hey guys, what is this Ubuntu Open Week?
<syngin01> edumacation
<asg8516> I am quite a fan of the ingenious collaboration efforts in the Linux community...Could somebody tell me what is this Open Week all about?
<AlanBell> asg8516: check the links in the /topic
<asg8516> Thanks for the input syngin01, could you please elaborate, (if time permits)? I like to listen to stories...
<asg8516> AlanBell: Since i'm new to ircs, couldyou tell me how to see /topic
<AlanBell> just type /topic
<asg8516> I tried "/topic"
<AlanBell> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
<asg8516> I tried that right now, but there was no output...(i'm using mIRC on windows)
<AlanBell> that is the link
<asg8516> Thanks a lot Alan
<asg8516> I'll be back after a small intro
<shimwha> Hi all - when does class begin ... lol
<shimwha> hmmmm quiet classroom ... this one
<z-itou16> there is still a long time to begin sessions
<z-itou16> here
<z-itou16> check the schedules https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/
<shimwha> kewl ...
<z-itou16> and in case you need some help with UTC time format
<z-itou16> http://www.csgnetwork.com/utctimecalc.html
<z-itou16> i had some difficulties with time
<z-itou16> now i know the lesson :)
<shimwha> good stuff - thanks for the info
<shimwha> will return ..
<BearBorg> :)
<BearBorg> Hello all
<BearBorg> anyone awake?
<BearBorg> welcome back
<BearBorg> Got a few quick questions if anyone has time
<BearBorg> *headscratch*
<cyberbob> hello
<BearBorg> :)
<BearBorg> hey
<cyberbob> can I get help with 9.10 instalation in this channel ?
<BearBorg> probably not at this time......
<BearBorg> everyone is sleeping I think
<cyberbob> right :)
<user101> is this solved ???? http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1300537
<user101> i am planning to remove karmic
<cyberbob> I have karmic on desktop (work excelent!) and on my Dell 1555 with GPU intel 8500, and after grub I have black screen, I think this is problem with X server, because I hear sound on starting kde
<syngin01> is there a recording / log of previous lessons?
<syngin01> found it on the website..thanks
<indus> hi
<indus> is school on?
<rhkfin> indus: start in ~4 hours
<rhkfin> starts
<indus> oh
<indus> who will teach
<rhkfin> indus: see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
<manouche> win 16
<rhkfin> fail
<manouche> :(
<indus> thanks
<indus> bye
<openweek5> Hello Guys
<Blizzerand> openweek5 : Howdy
<craiganth> Hello, I have just recently installed 9.1 and have had nothing but trouble. The system constantly freezes for hours. No matter how long I wait for my PC will not respond. I am using the same PC that I used for Jaunty, I was pretty happy with it.
<craiganth> A little silent here.
<indus> craiganth: hi
<ScottK> craiganth: #ubuntu is the channel for help.
<indus> craiganth: what is this room for?
<ScottK> indus: Read /topic
<craiganth> I am not real sure
<indus> ScottK: that still doesnt say whatthis room is for
<indus> ok i got a better answer from classroom chat, here some leaders will take sessions?
<indus> ok i got anotehr confusing answer there
<ScottK> Yes, in about two hours
<indus> listen here and ask there
<indus> doh
<Alexandre1> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/
<Alexandre1> here's the shedule
<indus> craiganth: come to #UBUNTU for questions
<craiganth> indus thanks
<craiganth> Sorry for being a newbie to linux but could you direct me to #UBUNTU please.
<lmentop> type /j #ubuntu
<craiganth> #ubuntu
<lmentop> you need the /j
<indus> craiganth: just type /join #ubuntu
<elliotsagan> exit
<ruadh> Hi. I installed Ubuntu 9.10 last night, the only problem is it won't close down properly. I error message I get is as follows:  [1570.004052] Buffer I/O on device loop0, logical block 1970924  Can anyone help?
<yos> ruadh, you on wubi ?
<pleia2> ruadh: for support questions you'll want to /join #ubuntu
<ruadh> yos, thanks for you're reply. What is wubi ?
<pleia2> we're starting the open week sessions in a few minutes :)
<yos> ruadh, please go to #ubuntu
<jcastro> 10 minutes until we begin!
<sebsebseb> hi
<jcastro> hi sebsebseb
<sebsebseb> hi jcastro
<mhall119|work> AppArmor first, right?
<mhall119|work> not ask Mark
<jcastro> yep
<jcastro> Mark had to travel last minute so he won't be here until Friday
* jcastro changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to Ubuntu Open Week! https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek (changes made, please check regularly) || Session: Apparmor with John Johansen || All questions go in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<jcastro> 5 minute warning!
<jpds> jcastro: +m?
<jcastro> yeah probably
<jcastro> jjohansen, you can just paste questions from -chat into here to answer them
<sebsebseb> jcastro: Travel where?
<jcastro> I'm not sure
<sebsebseb> oh ok
<jjohansen> jcastro: thanks
<jcastro> jjohansen, this is your first openweek isn't it?
<jjohansen> yes
<jcastro> This will be fun ...
<jcastro> ok everyone, we'll get started now, I'd like to introduce John Johansen
<jjohansen> thanks
<jcastro> who will be talking about AppArmor for this session
<jcastro> please introduce yourself and take it away!
<jjohansen> My name is John Johansen and I am a Kernel Engineer for Canonical and a dev on the AppArmor project.
<jjohansen>  For those of you expecting the "Ask Mark" section it has been moved to Fri at 17:00 UTC
<jjohansen> For those not familiar with AppArmor it is a mandatory access control (MAC) style security system.  Basically it limits an application to a preset list of resources,
<jjohansen> whether it is run as root or not.
<jjohansen> Today I plan to walk through the basics of AppArmor, feel free to ask questions at anytime, though if they don't fit into the current discussion I may wait until later to answer them.
<jjohansen> So MAC security means it always gets applied
<jjohansen> the user doesn't get to change it
<jjohansen> We are going to need a terminal open as AppArmor currently does not have
<jjohansen> any GUI based tools.  Applications >> Accessories >> Terminal
<jjohansen> First up we will look do some basic introspection of AppArmor
<jjohansen> In a terminal you can do  aa-status
<jjohansen> you should see
<jjohansen> apparmor module is loaded.
<jjohansen> You do not have enough privilege to read the profile set.
<jjohansen> or even better sudo aa-status
<jjohansen> which will ask you for your password and then provide a lot of information
<jjohansen> apparmor module is loaded.
<jjohansen> 12 profiles are loaded.
<jjohansen> 12 profiles are in enforce mode.
<jjohansen>    /usr/lib/connman/scripts/dhclient-script
<jjohansen>    /usr/share/gdm/guest-session/Xsession
<jjohansen> ...
<jjohansen> The profiles reported here are the only things that AppArmor is going to confine (apply restrictions too)
<jjohansen> Everything else on you system will run with standard unix DAC permissions
<jjohansen> go under the hood a bit we can get the so of the same basic info that aa-status gives manually
<jjohansen> sudo  ps ax -Z | grep -v '^unconfined'
<jjohansen> will list which process are confined and with which profile
<jjohansen> while sudo cat /sys/kernel/security/apparmor/profiles
<jjohansen> will list the profiles that are loaded into the kernel
<jjohansen> aa-status is just much nicer, and more convient
<jjohansen> if you type aa- and then hit tab twice you will see most of the apparmor commands
<jjohansen> its a nice way to find the command you are looking for
<jjohansen> now lets look at an actual apparmor profile
<jjohansen> AppArmor profiles are stored in /etc/apparmor.d/
<jjohansen> if you do an ls /etc/apparmor.d/
<jjohansen> you should see the several files some of them with names similar to the profiles that were reported by aa-status
<jjohansen> by convention the files in this directory use . to replace the / that appear in profile names
<jjohansen> so usr.bin.evince is the file for the /usr/bin/evince profile
<jjohansen> if you do sudo cat /etc/apparmor.d/usr.sbin.tcpdump
<jjohansen> you can see what a basic profile looks like
<jjohansen> which is mostly just a listing of files and there access permissions
<jjohansen>  @{PROC}/bus/usb/ r,
<akgraner> <sebsebseb>  QUESTIONS:   Do most Ubuntu users  really need to know about  AppArmor?  I mean  it's on by default and doing whatever it does in the background keeping later versions of Ubuntu a bit more secure, right?
<jjohansen> for example is a rule granting read access to some proc files
<jjohansen> good question, in general no
<jjohansen> but some people are interested, so we aim to please
<akgraner> <erUSUL> QUESTION; Heard that ubuntu will make SELinux (mainstream) first class citizen too. How this will affect AppArmor (which is not mainstream) in the future. Will both be supported and maantained in pararell ??
<jjohansen> well I am not sure what you mean by first class citizen
<jjohansen> selinux is certainly supported
<jjohansen> as for apparmor not being upstream, well there are efforts underway to correct that
<jjohansen> all right, that seems it for questions atm
<akgraner> <erUSUL> jjohansen: i mean that selinux was not the official supported MAC system it was (and is) AppArmor. Now SeLinux and AppArmor will be supported equally; or i am mistaken ?
<jjohansen> I am not actual sure what selinux support level will be
<jjohansen> so now that we have poked at the basics a bit lets turn to why people might want to know a little more about apparmor
<jjohansen> since apparmor is a mac system it can stop applications from doing things
<jjohansen> which can cause frustration
<jjohansen> or confusion
<jjohansen> or more likely both
<jjohansen> so how do we check if apparmor is causing something to fail
<jjohansen> well you need to look in the logs
<jjohansen> if you are use a stock ubuntu install you can do either of
<jjohansen> dmesg
<jjohansen> or
<jjohansen> sudo tail /var/log/messages
<jjohansen> and check for apparmor reject messages
<jjohansen> which look like
<jjohansen> [42970.714105] type=1503 audit(1256931563.236:27): operation="open" pid=6640 parent=1887 profile="/bin/example" requested_mask="::r" denied_mask="::r" fsuid=1000 ouid=0 name="/tmp/testfile"
<jjohansen> if you have auditd installed you are going to need to look in /var/log/audit/audit.log
<jjohansen> the messages look pretty much the same
<jjohansen> type=APPARMOR_DENIED msg=audit(1257334524.729:273753): operation="file_perm" pid=15819 parent=15713 profile="/bin/example" requested_mask="w::" denied_mask="w::" fsuid=0 ouid=0 name="/tmp/testfile"
<jjohansen> in the first example apparmor is block a read access to the file /tmp/file
<jjohansen> err make that /tmp/testfile
<jjohansen> in the second example it is block a write access
<jjohansen> the profile in both is /bin/example
<jjohansen> and you could open up the profile file in /etc/apparmor.d/
<jjohansen> and add a line like
<jjohansen>    /tmp/testfile rw,
<jjohansen> to give that profile read and write permissions for that file or you could run the aa-logprof tool
<jjohansen> aa-logprof will read the system logs looking for apparmor reject messages and try to update the profile
<akgraner> <SevenMachines> QUESTION: Is there a way for an the responsible running application to be notified of an apparmor rejection?
<jjohansen> no.  to the application it looks like a DAC permission reject
<jjohansen> that is to say the application receives an EACCESS error code
<jjohansen> which could come from a file having the wrong permissions set or from apparmor
<akgraner> <erUSUL> QUESTION: both done by /bin/example ? or by pid=somenunber ?
<jjohansen> ah, both ;)
<jjohansen> in the two example log are from different program invocations
<jjohansen> so they have different pids recorded
<jjohansen> they were both being confined by the same profile
<jjohansen> jjohansen: i was confused by the name of the profile ... /bin/example? is it not bin.example ?
<jjohansen> Ah good question, no
<jjohansen> the file in /etc/apparmor.d/ would likely be called bin.example but the profile would be /bin/example
<jjohansen> the name of the file actually is unimportant and can be anything like in the case of gdm-guest-session
<jjohansen> if you look in the profile file you will the actual name of the profile
<jjohansen> eg. for gdm-guest-session  the actual profile is /usr/share/gdm/guest-session/Xsession
<jjohansen> AppArmor uses the profile name to help determine when to attach a profile to an application
<jjohansen> so the profile name will match an actual binary on disk
<akgraner> <duanedesign> QUESTION: what would the name of the profile for /bin/example be in etc/apparmor
<akgraner> duanedesign> QUESTION: what would the name of the profile for /bin/example be in etc/apparmor.d
<jjohansen> by convention it would be /etc/apparmor.d/bin.example
<akgraner> <ezzieyguywuf> <Question> Why is it so easy to get into "Passwords and Encryptions" and see all the passwords that have been stored on a keyring. Shouldn't this app be password protected or something?
<jjohansen> but if there is a reason to use a different more descriptive name for the file use that
<jjohansen> ezzieyguywuf: which app do you mean?
<jjohansen> in general different apps have different requirements
<jjohansen> if you mean the seahorse stuff going around
<akgraner> ezzieyguywuf> jjohansen: Application >> Accesories >> Passwords and Encryption Keys
<jjohansen> mdeslaur has a very good blog post about it
<jjohansen> ah just a sec I will dig up the post, it goes into a much better explanation than I can heere
<jjohansen> http://mdeslaur.blogspot.com/
<akgraner> <erUSUL> QUESTION: so something.separated.by.dots is just a convention ? no script depends on the files be named like that?
<jjohansen> correct it is just a convention, it is the name inside the profile file that is important
<jjohansen> the firefox profile could just as easily be called firefox
<jjohansen> however when using apparmor profiling tools they do tend to use the convention, so you need to manually create a profile first if you want to use a different file name
<jjohansen> or you could rename the file afterwards
<akgraner> <erUSUL> jjohansen: but the name inside the file and the actual binary in the filesystem *do* have to match; do not they?
<jjohansen> yes, they do, sort of :)
<jjohansen> the name in the file can contain apparmor pattern matching
<jjohansen> eg.  /usr/bin/**
<jjohansen> will match all files in and below /usr/bin/
<jjohansen> however another profile with a more specific name will take precedence
<jjohansen> eg /usr/bin/ls
<jjohansen> would be used over /usr/bin/** if it existed
<jjohansen> the other case where they do not have to match comes from with in the profile it self
<jjohansen> if a profile allow executing a binary it will have a transition rule
<jjohansen> eg.  /usr/bin/ls  ix,
<jjohansen> the x is short for execute permission, the i prefix is a modifier telling how to handle profiles
<jjohansen> in this case there ix means inherit the current profile
<akgraner> <duanedesign> QUESTION: you mentioned aa-logprof, how does that work?
<jjohansen> This would be how you would create a large profile covering many different program like a confined shell
<jjohansen> at the terminal type
<jjohansen> aa-logprof
<jjohansen> err better make that sudo aa-logprof
<jjohansen> that will kick off the update program
<jjohansen> it then scans the system logs looking for apparmor messages
<jjohansen> if it finds some it will try to correlate them to profiles that are defined on the system
<jjohansen> if it can do that it will begin prompting for user input, on what to do
<jjohansen> an example would be
<jjohansen> Profile:  /bin/foobash
<jjohansen> Path:     /dev/tty
<jjohansen> Mode:     rw
<jjohansen> Severity: 9
<jjohansen>   1 - #include <abstractions/consoles>
<jjohansen>   2 - #include <abstractions/libvirt-qemu>
<jjohansen>   3 - #include <abstractions/ubuntu-konsole>
<jjohansen>   4 - #include <abstractions/ubuntu-xterm>
<jjohansen>  [5 - /dev/tty]
<jjohansen> [(A)llow] / (D)eny / (G)lob / Glob w/(E)xt / (N)ew / Abo(r)t / (F)inish / (O)pts
<jjohansen> the user can then select from the presented options
<jjohansen> eg. just allowing /dev/tty
<jjohansen> by pressing 5
<jjohansen> and then a for allow
<jjohansen> or the user can deny the access by pressing d
<jjohansen> pressing n will let the user enter any path they want
<jjohansen> g will add a globbing suggestion,
<jjohansen> in this case /dev/*
<jjohansen> logprof will do this for each log entry and then ask if you want to save your changes
<jjohansen> at that point your profiles should be updated
<jjohansen> aa-logprof, does more than just save the profile, it also makes sure the profiles are reloaded into the system so applications are confined by the most recent version
<jjohansen> aa-log prof is probably the single most useful tool for the user, as it lets them update profile for their configurations
<jjohansen> since we are running out of time do we have anymore questions?
<jjohansen> another couple tips
<jjohansen> you can use aa-complain
<jjohansen> to set profiles to learning mode
* jcastro changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to Ubuntu Open Week! https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek (changes made, please check regularly) || Session: Leadership Workshop with Jono Bacon || All questions go in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<jjohansen> this will cause messages to go to the logs with out causing applications to fail
<jcastro> ok we're out of time, thanks jjohansen for the session!
<jcastro> Logs will be available on the wiki page shortly
<jjohansen> its been fun :)
<jcastro> Next up is Jono Bacon with a Leadership Workshop
<jcastro> take it away jono!
<jono> alrighty
<jono> hi everyone and welcome to my Ubuntu Open Week session on Leadership
<jono> I am Jono Bacon and I am the Ubuntu Community Manager - my job is to help enable the community to be successful in their work
<jono> the goal of this session is to share some advice and tips for becoming an effective leader in a community - if you are the leader of a community team, this session should be useful to  you
<jono> ok, lets get started
<jono> communities are wonderful places
<jono> they provide a loose, informal place in which anyone is welcome to dip in and begin contributing to a globally significant project such as Ubuntu
<jono> they are the definition of outreach: the doors are open and everyone is welcome, and if your work meets the quality needs of the community, you can have a long and rewarding experience contributing to Ubuntu
<jono> but inside these vessels lies a challenge: how do we lead a group of unpaid volunteers who are donating their spare time to project, and lead them in a consistant, productive and effective direction?
<jono> the first thing to realize is that leadership does not merely apply to those who have the formal badge "leader"
<jono> there are many people in our community who don't have a formal leadership position, but they have a sense of drive and control that they naturally lead
<jono> for years people have talked about how humans can be approximately divided up into "leaders" and "followers" and while I am not sure it is quite that simple, you can actually see this rather commonly - some people will just naturally want to take control and lead and some will look to others for direction
<jono> if you find yourself naturally leading, you are by definition a leader, and my goal is to make you as effective and successful as possible
<jono> to do this we need to understand two things:
<jono>  1. the truths and myths about leadership
<jono>  2. how we effectively lead our teams
<jono> lets start with (1)
<jono> the first myth is that leadership is about "having the power to tell people what to do"
<jono> one of the traits I have noticed with online communities is that some people want to get into formal leadership positions because they want to feel like they have a sense of power
<jono> it is typically a control thing
<jono> people who become leaders because they want power are typically not the best leaders
<jono> this is one of the rookie mistakes that many new managers face:
<jono> they become a manager and they essentially "tell" their team what to do
<jono> instead of working with their team to understand their needs, what motivates and annoys them, and work together to flesh out goals, they direct and boss them around, feeling the power trip
<jono> while this kind of approach has short-term effectiveness, it will ultimately cause discontent in the team and they will move on
<jono> a truth about leadership is that leaders are here to make their teams effective
<jono> I believe you can boil leadership down into one key element: every team member has various problems and challenges to work on, and a great leader is there to help that team member optimize their opportunity for success
<jono> in volunteer communities the fundamental goal of leadership is not really that different than in a company environment
<jono> we look to our leaders to (1) inspire us and (2) make us effective
<jono> my goal here is to share some tips on each of these topics
<jono> lets look at the latter one first
<jono> we want our teams to be effective
<jono> we want each team member to not only be productive, but to have a great time being productive
<jono> to help with this we need to not only understand what our team is working on, but we need to also help structure and coordinate that work so it can be as successful as possible
<jono> in most community teams, structure is often left out
<jono> people often conjure up a set of things they would like to work on, but there is little structure, project management and checking-in going on
<jono> in a typically company environment it is often different - we have roadmaps, objectives, goals and more - these organizational tools help us to keep on track and help us to communicate progress and challenges to other stakeholders in the business
<jono> we can take a leaf out of this book and help our communities to be more organized
<jono> lets look at an example:
<jono> imagine your LoCo team is working on having a booth at a conference
<jono> this project involves many variables such as:
<jono>  * getting the booth space
<jono>  * getting equipment
<jono>  * organizing volunteers
<jono>  * coordinating travel
<jono>  * deciding on messaging for the event
<jono>  * handling money
<jono>  * . . .
<jono> this project will typically involve many different people looking after different parts of the project
<jono> as a leader this is how I would help the team be successful:
<jono>  1. I would first organize an IRC meeting for those interested in helping with the project
<jono>  2. before the meeting I would create a wiki page and jot down the different parts of the project (the things) above
<jono>  3. in the IRC meeting I would discuss with the team who is going to work on what and note down these responsibilities into the wiki page - it is well known in Project Management circles that noting down named responsibilities in a shared document will generate a greater sense of commitment to those goals than if they were not noted down, because each person doesnt want to be seen as letting the team down by not working on their actions
<jono>  4. with a set of responsibilities distributed between the team, I would then coordinate with the team to discuss the deadlines and add this to the document - some things will need to be done before other things, and noting down deadlines is another way of ensuring the different things happen in the right order
<jono>  5. I would then create a shared calendar and add the different deadlines to it and ask the volunteers to subscribe to it
<jono>  6. finally, I would schedule meetings every two weeks so the team could check in
<jono> this entire process would be underlined with a repeated reassurance that I am here to help - at no point would I tell people what to do, the entire conversation would be underlined with "who would like to work on xyz"
<jono> as you can see, this approach is much more structured and organized, and most community members would not naturally organize a project this way, but leaders have an excellent opportunity to
<jono> as I said earlier, the goal of a leader is to help people be successful, and I believe this structure would raise the opportunity for success
<jono> another element in making people effective is always providing a stable, professional and reassuring tone
<jono> the greatest leaders are those who are always calm, collected and professional
<jono> great leaders rarely get involved in slanging matches, shouting matches and trolling
<jono> they always maintain a calm tone and focus on solutions
<jono> now, of course, we are all human, and I like many have let this slip sometimes - sometimes we have bad days and other things in our lives that are worrying us
<jono> and while these exceptions are human nature, we should strive for them to really be exceptions
<jono> the most challenges area in which this can occur is conflict resolution
<jono> conflict resolution is often the most testing element of leadership
<jono> but it is also a huge opportunity to demonstrate your ability to show this calm, reasoned approach
<jono> they key about conflict resolution is to focus on *solutions*
<jono> in a situation where two or more people are arguing with each other, you will discover two types of people:
<jono>  1. people who want to focus on the conflict - they will always hark about what happened, who did what and how they were maligned
<jono>  2. people who want to move forward - these people will want to resolve the conflict and move on
<jono> people who are (2) are way easier to deal with and people who are (1) are more complex
<jono> they key thing is to keep the conversation always focused on resolving issues, finding solutions and making progress
<jono> in conflict scenarios that occur in public. your team will *really* look to you to help here
<jono> conflict in communities is hugely destructive because people simple don't want to spend their spare time away from their friends and families in an uncomfortable and shouty environment
<jono> at this point I just want to let you good people know that I recently wrote a book on how to build community called The Art of Community and you can download it for free at http://www.artofcommunityonline.org/get/ and I would also encourage you to buy a copy to support the book
<jono> in there it discusses the things I have talked about so far: how to structure and organize your community, conflict resolution and good leadership
<jono> alright
<jono> the final topic I mentioned is inspiring your team
<jono> inspiring a team is such a hugely critical responsibility in our leaders
<jono> our teams look to us for inspiration and guidance
<jono> and it is important that we make them feel motivated and excited about being involved in the team
<jono> much of this is about positive and re-enforced messaging
<jono> just for a moment, think about what we are doing here...
<jono> it is not like we work for a company who makes wire wool
<jono> we are involved in a global movement that is changing how people use computers
<jono> we are working towards a better future for our children
<jono> we are putting the foundations in place for technology that helps people learn, express themselves, create things and communicate
<jono> Ubuntu is a huge opportunity for change and every one of you has a seat on the journey
<jono> inside this journey are all the bugs, discussions, emails, packages, updates and wiki pages, and it can be tempting to get a little bogged down in all of that
<jono> but it is important that we all, not just leaders, remind ourselves of the wonderful journey that we are on, we need to see the forest, not the trees, in this journey
<jono> our leaders are so important to spreading what I call The Ubuntu Ethos
<jono> reminding ourselves of the bigger picture that we all play a part in as we move forward
<jono> our leaders should not only inspire us to stay on the journey, but they should seek to remind us of how important our specific contributions are
<jono> if you are a translator, you are helping to build a world in which everyone can use computers in their own language, this grows a culture of local pride and accessability
<jono> if you are a packager, you are helping to bring the best free software to our journey, providing more value for those who use Ubuntu
<jono> if you are tester, you are ensuring that all of the hard work going into Ubuntu works as flawlessly as possible - people don't use software that doesnt work, and it is people like you that make sure our good work meets these quality needs
<jono> we look to our leaders to reassure our teams of these messages, and it is a hugely important element of leadership
<jono> doing this is simple - regularly communicate this positive sense of camaraderie and value of personal contribution with your team
<jono> you need to regularly remind and encourage your team around the incredible work they are doing
<jono> I call this the Morning Motivation
<jono> you want your team members to wake up in the morning and think "today I am going to change the world with my contributions to Ubuntui"
<jono> when people develop that sense of motivation, they are like rocket-ships in our community., driving forward with tremendous work
<jono> as a leader, don't be shy in motivating your team, there is nothing to be embaressed about, nothing to feel coy about, just go out there and make them feel good
<jono> ok, we have 15 mins left
<jono> I am going to take some questions
<jono> <efm> QUESTION: How do you create a safe, private space for necessary emotional venting?
<jono> venting an personal space is always important
<jono> I always recommend that each person developers a set of friends and companions they can call up or ping on IRC and vent to
<jono> leaders need this too
<jono> I recommend against doing this in a channel, private or otherwise, as it can build a culture of negativity
<jono> this is why I recommend 1-on-1 venting
<jono> <efm> QUESTION: What can community leaders to help encourage a diverse community?
<jono> we need to underline that every contribution is welcome
<jono> sometimes times are not cut out to cater to some contributions (e.g. a LoCo team may have no packaging expertise), but we should encourage that person who wants to contribute in a new way to help build out that capability in the team, or help guide them to another team that does that work
<jono> <openweek1> QUESTION: I'm very interested in quality and community entry barriers -- you said that the community has quality needs, a standard for the contributions -- how do you manage this point? what's good enough for a community? may this lead into elitism? -- hope my English it's OK :)
<jono> good question - there is no fixed set of guidelines around quality in many teams
<jono> I think you can assess this in the same way our sponsorship queue works - a mentoring-like facility - when people join your team and want to contribute something, have experienced members of your team help show them what the expectations around quality are
<jono> have them comment-on and provide advice on their work, this will help them grow
<jono> <arianit> QUESTION: how do you convince your friends they're not doing you a favor by participating
<jono> I have no idea what you mean
<jono> <Jesi> QUESTION: first of all, I think you are doing a great job here, I don't mind stepping up and being a leader but I don't have a problem not being in charge either. I know basis for this discussion is leadership, but what about self-leadership? If one wants to get involved, what steps can they take to make sure they are the most effective team member they can be? I'm not sure how to word my question, what can one do
<jono>   to make sure their skills are successfully being tapped for the good of the team?
<jono> I think I know what you mean - a great leader needs to first of all show capability in their domain, but in many cases their leadership skills are the primary skills that people will tap
<jono> as an example, many engineering managers in company are no where near as technically focused as their team members, but their skill is in understanding high-level needs of the company and having their teams work together to meet those needs
<jono> the same goes for community leaders - if you repeatedly demonstrate an ability in providing advice and coordination for the team, people will look up to you for it
<jono> <thomg> QUESTION: How do you deal with poor management?
<jono> the best way is to be open and frank with that person - tell them how you feel they are making mistakes - a great manager or leader will listen to your comments carefully and evaluate whether they need to change, and do so where required
<jono> the worst thing is to never tell your leader or manager that they are doing a sub-par job
<jono> talk to them privately, not publicly, and offer them some friendly words of advice
<jono> <IdleOne> QUESTION: how do you get people of that mind set to contribute ?
<jono> which mind set?
<jono> <LaserJock> QUESTION: How do you deal with teams that make plans but never do anything? ideas are plentiful, implementations are lacking
<jono> good question, LaserJock
<jono> I think the key here is that great project management involves the folllowing key steps:
<jono>  1. understand the problem domain and the goal we seek to achieve
<jono>  2. document a roadmap which says what you will do, who is working on what and set deadlines
<jono> and this next one is the key one:
<jono>  3. regularly check in on progress - this can happen with regular meetings
<jono> if you notice that a specific person is unable or unwilling to work on their elements of the plan, coordinate having someone else take them on
<jono> a great roadmap will almost always die unless it gets regularly check in on
<jono> <IdleOne> QUESTION: how do you get people of that mind set to contribute ?
<jono> so IdleOne is referring to those who are work and money focused
<jono> people will only contribute to a community when they (a) enjoy it and (b) feel like their efforts are worthwhile
<jono> I find that the hook is the wider Ubuntu ethos - making them feel like they are really making a difference in the world
<jono> many people are hugely attracted to that, while others just enjoy the technical challenges and fun
<jono> see what they like doing and see what attracts them
<jono> ok folks, my time is about up - thanks for listening and thanks for the great questions
<jono> again, check out my book - it is a free download and it covers many of these topics - http://www.artofcommunityonline.org/get/
<jono> if you can buy a copy that also sends a great message to O'Reilly about publishing Creative Commons books :)
<jono> thanks folks!
<akgraner> Thanks Jono!
<akgraner> Up next is DK Cross and Making Screencast...
<DKcross> hello friends!
<akgraner> Welcome DKcross  and take it away!!
<DKcross> Hello good morning/ afternoom/ nigth online community itâs a pleasure to share  ideas with all of you , my name is David  Cruz , Iâm from El Salvador and Iâm participating with the community since 2 years ago.
<DKcross> \07
<DKcross> Nowadays, Iâm working in projects implementing Ubuntu in different schools  around my country at the same time, Iâm involved with Ubuntu team in El Salvador.
<DKcross>   In the community  Iâm working for Development and also I  work  in motivation and  encouragement to promote that more people work for Ubuntu.
* akgraner changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to Ubuntu Open Week! https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek (changes made, please check regularly) || Session: Making Screencast - DKcross  || All questions go in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<DKcross>  Today, we are going  to check a great TOPIC because this topic will help us to have a better vision about what people want to learn.
<DKcross> First, i will talk about the documents
<DKcross> The document refers to what help us to follow the steps to achieve a goal,
<DKcross> and also it makes reference to the ways you can work in a software.
<DKcross> The possible mistakes and the ways  to solve them, the documents  are the Base for someone without experience know something and understand the functions
<DKcross> We know different types of documents, the most famous are the âhow toâs â  which are  the manuals about how to do something but the document goes beyond  letâs see .
<DKcross> We can mention as examples the e-mail list, due to is a tool that help us to solve problems and we can create the steps to obtain a solution.
<DKcross> We  can  also obtain documents in books, and in this case I could mention different books that have been designed about Ubuntu.
<DKcross> The irc channels are also documents the same as the e-mail list and they also contribute to community support but finally a problem solution is obtained . this is  present in most of the projects about free software and ubuntu isnât the exception .
<DKcross> The screencast is a different way to make documents
<DKcross> The screencast are very simple. It consists in making a record and  explaining the process, it means something that you practice, explain and record.
<DKcross> The screencast can be about many topics, the same as written  documents, the most important difference about screencast is the possibility to guide people with our voice.
<DKcross>  The are many software to develop screencast, for example
<DKcross> â xvidcapâ and ârecord my desktopâ,  for this topic I will talk about ârecord my desktopâ
<DKcross> i think is more easy :)
<DKcross> and very simple..
<DKcross> but if for you is better with xvidcap, then  is good too!
<DKcross> What is record my desktop?
<DKcross> RecordMyDesktopÂ is a free andÂ open-sourceÂ desktopÂ screencasting softwareapplication written forÂ LinuxÂ that attempts to be easy to use, yet also effective at its primary task.
<DKcross> The program is separated into two parts; a command line tool that performs the tasks of capturing and encoding, and an interface that exposes the program functionality graphically.
<DKcross> There are two front-ends written in python with pyGtk (gtk-recordMyDesktop) and pyQt4 (qt-recordMyDesktop).
<DKcross> RecordMyDesktop also offers the ability to record audio throughÂ ALSA,Â OSSÂ or theÂ JACKÂ audio server. RecordMyDesktop only outputs toÂ OggÂ usingÂ TheoraÂ for video andÂ VorbisÂ for audio.
<DKcross> first, we have to install ârecordmydesktop and gtk-recordmydesktopâ
<DKcross> in ubuntu :)
<DKcross> we write in the Terminal sudo apt-get install recordmydesktop gtk-recordmydesktop
<DKcross> Record my desktop is great tool, it allow us to record our desktop and at the same time it records our audio
<DKcross> Some considerations you can take  into account before you make a screencast:
<DKcross> 1- To prepare a TOpic
<DKcross> 2- to have a good knowledge about the Topic
<DKcross> 3. to Practice what we are going to say
<DKcross> 3. to Practice what we are going to say << very important!
<DKcross> 4- record all the time and  then edit
<DKcross> 1. We have to choose a TOPIC based on necessities we have to cover , in general screencast will be for beginners in the Linux world,
<DKcross> we have to remember that Ubuntu is the first distribution Linux for many people .
<DKcross> Taking this into account, we have to choose topics that will give benefits to these people.
<DKcross> We can consider that the the Ubuntu community is very friendly , with the screencast we can work for keeping this partnership.
<DKcross> 2. We  need to know the Topic weâre going to record , because it wonât be good if we record unreal information or a fact that we donât know very well because this will affect others.
<DKcross> We can select a Topic because we have to be sure thatâs something it needs to be taught in a more detailed way, but we cand also make the effort to give a good class . For this reason, we have to know the topic ,to study it and investigate if we have any doubts.
<DKcross> 3. Itâs good to practice befote the rehearsal ,with the purpose of avoid mistakes or any problem.
<DKcross> A good option will be to make rehearsal sessions , at the beginning we may feel nervous or afraid of taking but it will be over with the practice.
<DKcross> 4. A good option is  to record with mistakes and then to edit with edition tools such as: kdenlive or the one you prefer.
<DKcross> To edit allow us to record and to repeat in the same record
<DKcross> and later we delete the  unnecessary information and at the same time,
<DKcross> we can add captions, sound effects, and to increase the volume or reduce it.
<DKcross> Weâre going to practice recording a screencast, please follow this guide after you install record my desktop
<DKcross> First, we have to install the necessary software
<DKcross> we type in the Terminal
<DKcross> sudo apt-get install recordmydesktop gtk-recordmydesktop
<DKcross> or you can use other front end, like ubuntu software center
<DKcross> or synaptic
<DKcross> please go to -> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DKcross/Presentations/mkscreencast
<DKcross> Using recordMyDesktop
<DKcross> You can start recordMyDesktop under Applications > Sound & Video > gtk-recordMyDesktop:
<DKcross> This is how its interface looks. You can configure the video and sound quality (if you want to include sound in your screencast; it's also possible to deselect sound);
<DKcross>  to start a recording, click on Record; the recordMyDesktop window will disappear, and the recording starts.
<DKcross> During the recording, you will see a square button in the taskbar in the upper right corner:
<DKcross> This button allows you to control the recording. By right-clicking the button, you can pause the recording:
<DKcross> And by left-clicking it, you stop the recording
<DKcross> This will cause the recordMyDesktop-encoder window to apppear
<DKcross>  your screencast is now being converted to Theora Ogg:
<DKcross> Afterwards, the recordMyDesktop window appears again
<DKcross>  Click on Quit to leave it:
<DKcross> You can now find the screencast in your home folder (Places > Home Folder)
<DKcross> Your screencast is named out.ogv. You can watch it by double-clicking it
<DKcross> This will open your screencast in the Totem movie player:
<DKcross> now, we know about screencast!
<DKcross> is very easy.
<DKcross> now you can convert from ogv  to other.. like avi, mpeg ..
<DKcross> We have learned how you can make a video about what take place in my desktop, itâs easy to follow and itâs one of the best ways to help the beginners , thanks for you attention ,itâs been a pleasure to share this with the online community.
<DKcross> with big and friendly community of course..
<DKcross> who have the quesions?
<DKcross> ohhh sorry
<DKcross> this is important https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScreencastTeam
<DKcross> The Ubuntu Screencast Team is a part of the Ubuntu Documentation Team, however we have our own mailing list and IRC channel (#ubuntu-screencasts).
<akgraner> <TheFunkbomb> QUESTION: DKcross, what video editing software do you use?  pitivi or whatever doesn't work with compiz.  Kdenlive crashes
<DKcross> ok
<DKcross> well for me kdnlive has allways been a great tool
<DKcross> while using compiz
<DKcross> on the gnome desktop
<akgraner> <jamesjedimaster> QUESTION how can i convert this .ogv into mpg or something else?
<DKcross> you can go to #ubuntu-screencasts and ask more about
<DKcross> :)
<DKcross> is very easy  convert ogv
<DKcross> you need mencoder
<DKcross> winff is a great tool too
<DKcross> if you want a simple and great tool then you need winff
<DKcross> ok
<DKcross> about kdnlive, i am not familiar with all its bugs
<DKcross>  but you could report them
<DKcross> and for sure the comunity can take
<DKcross> care of them
<DKcross> with with next update
<DKcross> well... tanks for all
<DKcross> :D thanks akgraner
<akgraner> DKcross, thank you for taking time teach this session!...
<DKcross> :)
<akgraner> If you have questions about screencasts please go to #ubuntu-screencasts...
* akgraner changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to Ubuntu Open Week! https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek (changes made, please check regularly) || Session:  First steps in translating Ubuntu - DavidPlanella  || All questions go in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<akgraner> up next is David Planella..
<akgraner> with First steps in translating Ubuntu
<dpm> thanks akgraner
<akgraner> take it away!
<dpm> Hi everyone :) !
<dpm> Welcome to this OpenWeek session on Ubuntu translations
<dpm> My name is David Planella, and I work as the Ubuntu Translations Coordinator in the Community team.
<dpm> In the next hour I'll try to outline the first steps to follow for anyone wanting to do their first contributions in translating Ubuntu.
<dpm> As usual, if you've got any questions, feel free to ask them at the #ubuntu-classroom-chat channel prepending them with QUESTION. I'll leave some time before the end of the session to answer them.
<dpm> So let's get started, shall we?
<dpm> Ubuntu has got an amazing translation community.
<dpm> Every day, people all around the globe contribute to translate your favourite distro in one of the hundreds of languages available, so that everyone can use it in their own.
<dpm> This is a key part of the Ubuntu philosophy:
<dpm> Every computer user should be able to use their software in the language of their choice.
<dpm> So how can I join them and make my first translation contributions to Ubuntu?, you might ask yourself.
<dpm> Let's start with the basic requirements.
<dpm> First of all, you have to have some knowledge of English, and obviously of the language you are trying to translate into ;)
<dpm> The requirement of English is necessary so that everyone can translate from the same common language
<dpm> It is basically a convention that applications and documentation are written in English, which is also the main common language for communication amongst the international developer community.
<dpm> Translators then translate from English to their own languages.
<dpm> You will also need a Launchpad account.
<dpm> If you don't already have one, I'd recommend you to check out the help page on creating a new account -> https://help.launchpad.net/YourAccount/NewAccount
<dpm> Once we've cleared that up, the next thing you might want to get familiar with the collaborative tool we use to translate Ubuntu: Launchpad, and in particular the Translations component:
<dpm>   https://translations.launchpad.net/
<dpm> If you go to that page with your browser, you'll see that there are quite a lot of things which can be translated in Launchpad: on one side Operating Systems, and on the other individual projects.
<dpm> You can click on them later on if you want to explore a bit, but for now we are going to focus on Operating Systems, which is the category in which Ubuntu falls.
<dpm> Ubuntu is an Operating System, which we can consider a collection of applications that make your computer work. In that sense, we will be translating applications
<dpm> You've got two possibilities to go to the translatable applications in Launchpad:
<dpm> 1) On the main Launchpad Translations page, click on the link of the Ubuntu version you'd like to translate, for example https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu/karmic/+translations.
<dpm> You'll then be taken to a list of languages. Click again on your language and you'll be shown a list of translatable applications, which you can then click and start translating them.
<dpm>  This is useful to have an overview of all packages to translate.
<dpm> 2) The other option, which might be easier, is to open an application, e.g. Firefox, go to the Help menu and choose the "Translate this application..." entry.
<dpm> Following that, a browser window will take you directly to the page in Launchpad where you can translate the application
<dpm> This is useful if you know beforehand which application you'd like to translate
<dpm> Most Ubuntu applications provide a link to the translation page on the Help menu
<dpm> In one way or the other, you'll end up in a page where you'll see a collection of texts in English (also called strings) and a textbox where you can input your translation.
<dpm>  Along with that, you'll see other links to navigate within the translation and to save your work.
<dpm> That's all you need for the start
<dpm> The interface is pretty intuitive, so I'll let you play with it and figure it out. If you have any particular question, feel free to ask me at the end of the section.
<dpm> The key idea is to provide translation suggestions through the interface and save them in Launchpad along the way.
<dpm> The main goal of Launchpad Translations is to make it easy for people to collaborate on translations, but at the same time keep a good balance with the quality of translations.
<dpm> To that extent, everyone with a Launchpad account can provide suggestions from day one, and these are shared amongst all projects hosted in there.
<dpm> This greatly eases the process of translations, since thanks to these global suggestions, quite often adding a translation for a string already translated somewhere else is just a matter of pointing and clicking :)
<dpm> However, before strings can be used in Ubuntu, they must be reviewed for consistence and correctness.
<dpm> Without review, it could well be that spelling mistakes or misleading translations for actions or options in an application appear in Ubuntu
<dpm> That's one of the main reasons we need review. Another one is consistency.
<dpm> It is always desirable that translations for the same strings are consistent across applications
<dpm> so that the user gets a consistent experience and he or she knows that translations for a particular option, preference or action are always the same regardless of the application
<dpm> You can of course keep providing suggestions, in particular if you are new and want to get familiar with the interface and the functionality, but at some point you will want to see if your translations are being used or get feedback on them.
<dpm> So how are these translation suggestions reviewed and accepted?
<dpm> And here we come to the interesting part: Community.
<dpm> Enter language teams.
<dpm> The Ubuntu Translations community is organised in language teams, one per language, which are normally integrated in a bigger LoCo team.
<dpm> In Launchpad, these teams are further integrated in the Ubuntu Translations _group_, which is basically a container for all Ubuntu translations teams:
<dpm>   https://translations.launchpad.net/+groups/ubuntu-translators
<dpm> There you can see the list of all existing teams which have started a translation effort in Ubuntu.
<dpm> There is is a good chance that you'll find a team for your language (if not, stay tuned and I'll let you know how you can start one later on).
<dpm> These teams are in charge of translating and reviewing the translations for Ubuntu, so the next step in your Ubuntu translations is to get in touch with them.
<dpm> in your Ubuntu translations journey, I meant :)
<dpm> Communication is a key aspect in open source communities.
<dpm> The translation team members will give you feedback about your translations, and accept them after review.
<dpm> They will also let know about the way they work, their guidelines, and of more advanced aspects of translations if you want to contribute further.
<dpm> Most importantly, they will be your entry point in entering the Ubuntu translations community and helping you along the way.
<dpm> After you've gained some experience in translations, you might want to ask them if you can join in as well!
<dpm> So here's how you can contact the particular translation team for your language:
<dpm> 1) Go to https://translations.launchpad.net/+groups/ubuntu-translators
<dpm> 2) Find your language's team and click on their link
<dpm> 3) You'll then be taken to the team's home page in Launchpad, which should give you further instructions on their preferred way of contact.
<dpm> Each team works differently, but in general terms most of them use a mailing list or a forum for communication, and getting in touch is normally as easy as sending an e-mail or a post with a short presentation of yourself saying that you'd like to contribute.
<dpm> You'll then be welcomed and they'll let you know more about how the team works and answer the questions you might have.
<dpm> Apart from the local teams, there is also a global translations community in which members of all different teams interact and discuss everything related to Ubuntu Translations.
<dpm> Discussion there takes place in English as the common language, and I'd very much encourage you to participate if you want to learn more about how translations globally work.
<dpm> The main point of contact is the mailing list, but we've got an IRC channel where you can ask any questions as well:
<dpm>   https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Translations/Contact
<dpm> (so in fact you can just come to #ubuntu-translators and say hi ;) )
<dpm> There's quite a lot more interesting stuff in translations: upstream projects, translation milestones, online and offline translation, etc. but this should get you started for now.
<dpm> I'll leave the rest for a future session or for the language teams to explain.
<dpm> And finally some links as reminders:
<dpm> * Launchpad Translations: https://translations.launchpad.net/ (the collaborative tool we use to translate Ubuntu)
<dpm> * The Ubuntu Translators group: https://translations.launchpad.net/+groups/ubuntu-translators (how you can join the translation community in your language)
<dpm> * The Translations home on the Ubuntu wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Translations/ (all information around Ubuntu Translations)
<dpm> * Launchpad Translations help: https://help.launchpad.net/Translations/ (if you need help in using Launchpad for translations)
<dpm> * IRC channel for Ubuntu Translations on Freenode: #ubuntu-translators
<dpm> * IRC channel for Launchpad questions on Freenode: #launchpad
<dpm> So I hope you found the session interesting so far, and I hope it generated some food for questions. Please feel free to ask anything
<dpm> So
<dpm> Bring them on! :)
<akgraner> <yltsrc> QUESTION: why launchpad translations doesn't sent into mainstream (e.g. gnome project)?
<dpm> that's a good question, and a bit more advanced, so let me quickly give some background first
<dpm> Ubuntu is a collection of applications and open source efforts which most often are organised as separate projects
<dpm> quite often as well, translations of those projects are imported into Ubuntu
<dpm> and the whole Ubuntu community greatly benefits from those as well
<dpm> Ubuntu translators can complete translations in Launchpad, but it has been historically complicated from a technical point of view
<dpm> to contribute back those translations to the upstream projects
<dpm> it is still doable, but has been left to local teams to do that manually
<dpm> Things have changed though
<dpm> and you'd be happy to hear that the Launchpad Translations team is working towards providing better upstream integration as their main focus
<dpm> next question?
<akgraner> <Jesi> QUESTION: What languages are currently being worked on and which ones need to be worked on?
<dpm> basically all are currently being worked on :) Translations mostly happen during the development cycle
<dpm> but they can be also completed during the stable release
<dpm> and translations are released through language packs
<dpm> all teams need help
<dpm> and are happy to get new contributors
<dpm> next question please?
<akgraner> <Jesi> QUESTION: Knowing a few languages myself, I understand the need for a common base langauge to be used, but for those who would be frustrated, wanting to convert from say German to Deutch instead of English to Dutch, could you talk a moment to talk about the importance of using one language as a base?
<dpm> I'm not sure I understand the question, but basically having a single language as a basis helps in consistency on the process
<dpm> in any case, Launchpad also provides you suggestions from another language you might be fluent in, if that can help you
<dpm> <Jesi> QUESTION: How to you about reporting an improper translation or translation abuse? If for some unthinkable reason they aren't caught
<dpm> you can use the ubuntu-translations project for that -> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Translations/KnowledgeBase/ReportingBugs
<dpm> <jimbodoors> QUESTION:   Ubuntu and Debian share translations?
<dpm> In general terms, Debian translations are shared by importing them. In particular applications, developers are both Debian and Ubuntu members
<dpm> so sharing works best on those cases
<dpm> I'm not sure if we've got time for another question
<dpm> ?
<dpm> So I think that was it. Thank you very much for listening and I hope to see you around in the translations world!
<akgraner> nope times up dpm..:-)
<dpm> thanks a lot for your help akgraner!
<akgraner> Thank You dpm!!
<akgraner> up next is Scott Kitterman
<ScottK> There are three of us here to chat with you about Kubuntu, KDE, and netbooks.  Despite what the openweek handbook said, I know very little about Gimp (that's the next guy).  I've been a Kubuntu user since 6.06 and involved in Kuubntu development for about two years now.  I coordinated most of the integration work to provide Kubuntu Netbook Edition for Karmic.
<ScottK> Marco Martin (notmart) is a KDE contributor since 2007, mainly on The Plasma desktop shell project and other workspace related technologies like the definition and the implementation of the new X systemtray protocol. He is currently working for Qt Development Frameworks on the development of the Plasma Netbook shell, a workspace tailored for netbooks and other small screen devices based around the KDE and Plasma technologies.
<ScottK> Linux user since 1997, MoRpHeUz (a.k.a. Artur de Souza) works for INdT (NokiaÃ¢ÂÂs Institute of Technology) as a researcher on the openBossa Stream, developing open-source solutions for mobile devices. He is a KDE hacker, hacking mainly the Plasma desktop shell project and creating a unique user experience for KDE users on mobile devices like netbooks and mobile phones.
<ScottK> We have an overview of Kubuntu Netbook here: https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/Netbook - I also recently did an overview of the development process for planet.ubuntu.com that you can read here: http://www.kitterman.org/ScottK/2009/10/making_of_a_new_ubuntu_flavor.html - It also has more links on the background of Plasma Netbook.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iULB1zE7EJE&NR=1 is pretty close to what we have in Karmic if you don't have it
<ScottK>  running and want to get the basic idea.
<ScottK> The first Kubuntu Netbook edition is an experiment that is the result of close collaboration between Kubuntu and the upstream developers.  My experience is that while there are some things it doesn't do that are inconvenient, and it doesn't fully express the KDE netbook vision, it's pretty good and usable.  We use it on three netbooks at my house and everyone likes it (Including my decidedly non-technical 18 year old daughter).
* akgraner changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to Ubuntu Open Week! https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek (changes made, please check regularly) || Session:  Kubuntu Netbook Edition - Scott Kitterman   || All questions go in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<ScottK> I came prepared to talk about how the development of Kubuntu Netbook edition went, what we plan for the future, and how people can get involved.
<ScottK> Now I'll turn it over to notmart and MoRpHeUz for any comments they may have ...
<MoRpHeUz> well, just ask us questions and I hope we can answer them well enough :)
<notmart> well, what i can say, i'm pretty happy with the kubuntu implementation, looks quite straightforward to test and use
<notmart> and is important for us since can give a testbed really easy for people to test
<MoRpHeUz> notmart: +1
<ScottK> For feedback from users, there is a plasma-netbook product in the plasma project on bugs.kde.org for feedback that goes straight to the upstream developers.
<ScottK> question:  can i run normal kubuntu/kde after installing kubuntu netbook?  can i switch between the two
<ScottK> Not easily.
<ScottK> From a package perspective, Kubuntu Desktop and Netbook are very similar.
<notmart> for kde 4.4 there will be a systemsettings module that allows on the fly switch between the two
<ScottK> To switch to Kubuntu Desktop you have to remove the plasma-netbook, kubuntu-netbook, kubuntu-netbook-default-settings packages and restart KDE.
<ScottK> So we should have it integrated to switch easily in 10.04
<ScottK> QUESTION: Is the emphasis more on making things run well on small screens, or on things like power saving and performance?
<ScottK> I'll let notmart or MoRpHeUz answer that one
<notmart> yep, perhaps you can ship in a different package, and the netbook option would be greyed out in this case if not installed (still question before)
<notmart> ScottK: both, for kde 4.4 we are more focusing on getting the thing out of the door and work well, but we try to keep things with a reasonable footprint
<notmart> next revisions will focus more on performance probably
<ScottK> Question: what exactly are the differences between KDE and KDE Netbook Edition? What functionality will be lost from standard KDE
<notmart> good thing is, as soon as it'll upgrae to Qt 4.6 there will be some performance improvement for free quite noticeable
<ScottK> Kubuntu will ship with Qt 4.6 in 10.04
<notmart> excellent :)
<notmart> next q, the software available is the same, so is possible to use every program shipped with kde, supposing it's installed
<notmart> what will change is the main shell the user sees
<ScottK> In answer to the differences question, if you look at the youtube videos I linked above shows you how the netbook 'desktop' looks/works.  It's different
<notmart> i.e. there isn't a real "desktop"
<notmart> and the interaction of this main shell is different
<notmart> another thing that will be different in kde 4.4 is the behaviour of the window manager
<notmart> for instance windows won't have borders when maximized
<notmart> and will start maximized as default
<notmart> other things, let's see
<ScottK> So working better by default on the smaller screens and maximizing the screen real estate you do have
<notmart> exactly
<ScottK> QUESTION: is kubuntu the only distro to use KDE on a netbook?
<ScottK> So far, yes.
<ScottK> I'm sure once KDE 4.4 is out, others will pick it up.
<ScottK> I started this effort now because I want KDE on netbooks to get a running start next year.
<ScottK> question: is there a FAQ section on the wiki i can reference to see if my question has been asked already?
<ScottK> No, not yet.
<ScottK> Documentation of all types for Kubuntu Netbook is pretty much lacking and we'd love to have help with htat
<ScottK> <Jesi> this isn't netbook related, but is KDE supposed to feel like windows in some way? like with the main menu
<ScottK> I'd say that people have often made that comparison, but I'm pretty sure it's never been a design goal.
<notmart> well, it's not "supposed", some things are different, some aren't
<ScottK> Unlike other efforts that treat netbooks as just small computers, Plasma Netbook is trying to develop an environment that really works at this new scale.
<notmart> we do things in the way we feel works better/more intuitive and in the end it happens that some stuff works in the same way as in other environments
<ScottK> <amik> QUESTION: any chance to see support for poulsbo (GMA500)? discussion in the bug on this says the dirvers are fully functional, but not packaged for other unknown reasons)
<ScottK> The problem is that they aren't free software.
<ScottK> Unless the owners of the drivers authorize their distribution for Karmic, there is nothing anyone else can do.
<ScottK> <mark726> Question:how does Kubuntu Netbook compare with UNR resource wise? CPU, and memory use etc..
<ScottK> The only think I've compared is ISO image size.
<ScottK> There Kubuntu Netbook is bigger, by design.
<notmart> i've not measured and compared the two systems
<notmart> i think there shouldn't be much difference
<ScottK> Since most netbooks don't have CD ROMs we assume people will install via USB and don't worry about the 700MB size limit
<notmart> tough measuring accurately occupied memory in kde apps is very hard, since there is a lot of memory sharing
<ScottK> This lets us ship all the available language packs plus a small selection of educational software and games that don't fit on the Kubuntu Desktop CD.
<ScottK> <Jesi> Question: will there be a Kubuntu Network Remix version or is that just an Ubuntu thing...
<ScottK> I "Remix" is a mix of official packages from the Ubuntu archive plus modified/new ones.
<ScottK> In Hardy, UNR was a true remix.  They decided to keep the name, even though it is, from Jaunty on, fully in the archive
<ScottK> For Kubuntu we've beein 100% in the archive from the start, so we call ourselved Kubuntu Netbook Edition.
<ScottK> On the comparison front, I do find that plasma-netbook is noticably lighter than the regular plasma-desktop.
<ScottK> It's a noticable difference on my Dell mini 10v.
<ScottK> <jwisser> Question: Is the "1 running app" notification in the upper left-hand corner meant to act as an app switcher, or just a notifier?
<ScottK> It's an app switcher (the primary one)
<notmart> it's an application switcher
<ScottK> Also the X to the right of that will close the current window
<notmart> clicking on it can have two different behaviours depending if desktop effects are enabled or not
<notmart> if they are, a present windoww effect is triggered, a la exposÃ©
<ScottK> If desktop effects are disabled, on the current Kubuntu Netbook, you need to alt-tab to switch
<ScottK> I have it on my TODO still to see if we can backport getting the app switcher to work without effects.
<MoRpHeUz> and with kde 4.4 it displays a list of the open windows...
<notmart> in kde 4.4 if they aren't there will be just a normal popup
<MoRpHeUz> (without effects)
<ScottK> <amik> QUESTION: how far are KDE from making the official netbook release? both time-wise and feature-wise?
<notmart> the release will be together with kde 4.4
<ScottK> From a Kubuntu perspective, you will see it in Lucid Lynx, 10.04 next April.
<notmart> so  february 2010
<ScottK> KDE 4.4 is getting near feature freeze, so they are pretty far along
<ScottK> <Jesi> Question: Are their any differences between the Kubuntu and Ubuntu Netbook Editions other than the obvious difference of desktop environment, or will the decision to use one or the other still simply be preference?
<ScottK> Under the hood they share the same platform.
<ScottK> Kernel, drivers, etc. are the same.
<ScottK> So it's really up to what you prefer.
<notmart> well, performance or how you prefer the interface to look/behave
<ScottK> yes
<ScottK> <amik> QUESTION: how does the design of a totally new interface paradigm come into being? are there usability tests? goals and guidelines on which ideas are based? or just hacked away into being, smoothing edges along the way?
<MoRpHeUz> amik: we did usability tests
<ScottK> For me it's easy.  Upstream writes the code and I package it.
<MoRpHeUz> amik: my company did usability tests with non-geek users
<MoRpHeUz> both recorded in tape (or dvd, whatever), interviews, etc...
<ScottK> You may want to look at http://morpheuz.cc/netbook-paper.pdf for more background.
<MoRpHeUz> ScottK: thanks for the link, I was going to get that right now hehe
<notmart> then we discussed, discussed and discussed the results
<MoRpHeUz> amik: based on this research we started having the ideas and I'm always showing them the results and getting feedback
<MoRpHeUz> (a lot of discussion hehe)
<notmart> a pretty serious design process i would say
<MoRpHeUz> amik: and in the end we are aiming at creating a pretty unique user experience, not just yet another desktop shell
<ScottK> <the_madman> QUESTION: The pillars of KDE 4 have been meaning to make it a rather, 'revolutionary' desktop, yet a lot of attention has been focussed on Plasma. Now that Plasma has been vastly improved and mostly stabalized, can we expect to see greater focus on the other pillars, such as Akonadi and Nepomuk?
<ScottK> This isn't really a netbook specific question.
<notmart> the_madman: absolutely
<ScottK> From what I know, I think the answer is yes.
<ScottK> From a distribution perspective, Nepomuk has been tough because we didn't have a backend that was both FOSS and had good performance.
<notmart> the madman: development of nepomuk and akonady ha been pretty fast, not really visible because they are frameworks, butthey are being quickly integrated now
<ScottK> It looks like that is changing.
<notmart> there will be a kmail release based on akonady in the near future, probably 4.5
<ScottK> I think it's another 12 -18 months before Akonadi is fully integrated, but honestly I'm glad it's slow and they are careful.  Email is some of the most imporant data I have.
<notmart> yeah, the new backend, virtuoso should have both a good license and waay better performances
<ScottK> Kmail/Akonadi is aimed at 4.5 currently.
<ScottK> http://pim.kde.org/akonadi/ for those wondering what Akonadi is
<ScottK> http://nepomuk.kde.org/ for Nepomuk
<ScottK> Akonadi, although it is a KDE pillar has no KDE dependencies.
<ScottK> It is hoped that it will be picked up as a cross DE free desktop solution
<ScottK> I've seen a prototype of Evolution running off an Akonadi backend.
<ScottK> <sebsebseb> QUESTION: Why is 9.10 the first release to get a Kubuntu Netbook Remix version?   I guess, because  KDE  wasn't seen as being ready enough before, and funding?
<notmart> cool thing is that will be possible to have multiple apps accessing akonadi data without doing corruptions, so you will be able to have a recap of the last unread mails on the desktop for instance
<ScottK> Plasma netbook just started development recently.
<notmart> yes, early 2009
<ScottK> I saw http://www.notmart.org/index.php/BlaBla/put_a_net_in_your_book while I was at the last Ubuntu Developer summit where we planned Karmic.
<ScottK> Pretty much immediately I thought we ought to have a Kubuntu Netbook version and started convincing people.
<notmart> wow, how it seems old alredy :)
<ScottK> It was a very interesting process because as far as I know, no community developed *buntu flavor has ever started out in the official repositories before.
<ScottK> I was quite pleased with the support from Canononical people throughout the process.
<ScottK> We (community developers) did most of the work, but whenever we needed help or they were the best one for the just, they just jumped right in.
<ScottK> A small example, https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/Netbook used to be very developer focused and wouldn't have helped users at all.  A day or two before the release Riddell rewrote it because it needed doing.
<ScottK> This turns out to be very much a joint community/Canonical effort
<ScottK> Getting a workable plasma netbook with KDE 4.3 also had a lot of help from upstream.  notmart and MoRpHeUz both were a lot of help in the development process for us.
<ScottK> This is particularly notable since the work we were doing had already branched off of what they were doing for KDE 4.4 and so it was not in their planned line of work.
<ScottK> Karmic was, I think, in general a notable release for Kubuntu/KDE in that we worked together a lot more closely in a number of areas.
<ScottK> QUESTION, are there little tasks for the new commers to Kubuntu development
<ScottK> Yes.  Please join us in #kubuntu-devel.
<ScottK> We need all kinds of help.
<ScottK> Although Canonical supports Kubuntu significantly, it is primarily a community driven project.
<ScottK> We need help with bug triaging, wiki updating, documentation, marketing, everything.  Not just coding an packaging.
<ScottK> <amik> QUESTION: what future plans do u have for the netbook edition?
<ScottK> For Lucid, we'll use the plasma-netbook that's released with KDE 4.4, so we'll be in the main line of KDE development.
<ScottK> The plan is to continue this project.
<MoRpHeUz> amik: ^ this will be awesome to align everything
<ScottK> A lot of the specifics will be based on feedback and how much help we have to do the work.
<MoRpHeUz> and from "upstream" point of view, we have a lot of ideas like "social integration" and others
<ScottK> As with Kubuntu desktop, Kubuntu netbook aims to be a very upstream distro, so in many respects the Kubuntu plan is the KDE plan
<ScottK> <the_madman> QUESTION: The design of Plasma was so that it would be scalable, a la the netbook remix. Are there plans to scale it down even futher, perhaps to smart-phones? If so, what work would go towards getting KDE installed on smartphones by default?
<notmart> for us, is to continue along the line of what we have now, both in terms of features and stability, we aim to make it a good experience on the devices that are out there now and for future ones, that could be different, like the presence of touchscreens for instance
<ScottK> I've seen Plasma running on Nokia N900.
<notmart> http://labs.trolltech.com/blogs/2009/10/27/qgraphicsview-is-a-hummer-plasma-is-the-luxury-version/
<ScottK> <Jesi> Question: not to go off topic, but you mention marketing, what plans to you have for Kubuntu Netbook Edition here? I feel marketing is largely overlooked and am interested to know what is planned
<ScottK> For marketing, I know we need to get some of that.  Kubuntu as a whole needs it.
<ScottK> I'm a developer, not a marketer and would really like some involvement from people that understand about htat.
<notmart> oon previous question: we aim to make it work as better as possible on every devices, smartphones are becoming powerful and interesting enough to give a try, it will be of course different from what we have in the desktop and the netbook... nothing planned right now but we'll see
* akgraner changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to Ubuntu Open Week! https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek (changes made, please check regularly) || Session:  Intro to GIMP - akk    || All questions go in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<ScottK> On that note, the current U/I (except a few installer screens) mostly workw on a 480 pixel height screen.  That's what the N900 has
<akgraner> Thanks ScottK et al  :-)
<ScottK> OK.  I guess we're done  Thanks everyone.
<ScottK> Thank you MoRpHeUz and notmart.
<MoRpHeUz> ScottK: thank you for all the help :)
<notmart> ScottK: our pleasure :D
<akgraner> Up next is Akkana Peck with an Intro to GIMP....:-)
<akgraner> akk, the floor is all yours when you are ready....
<akk> Hi, all! Welcome to the GIMP session!
<akk> I'm Akkana Peck -- I wrote "Beginning GIMP" (gimpbook.com) and I've been involved with GIMP for 8-9 years.
<akk> You all probably know what GIMP is, but it stands for GNU Image Manipulation Program,
<akk> and what it does is edit images.
<akk> If anybody has specific techniques you'd like to learn (or other questions),
<akk> ask on #ubuntu-classroom-chat.
<akk> If you don't have any of your own photos handy for following along during this session,
<akk> you might like some of the ones at http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Koala :)
<akk> And a tip to start out: you may be able to drag from Firefox straight into GIMP
<akk> (drop it over the Toolbox -- the small window with all the buttons)
<akk> Drag-n-drop works in a lot of places in gimp (I'll talk more about that later if I have time).
<akk> For commandline junkies (like me), you can also run gimp foo.jpg bar.jpg ... and it will open in your already-running GIMP -- that's how I most often open images.
<akk> Any questions to start out? Does everybody have gimp running and an image loaded?
<akk> I'll start with some really basic stuff (that still confuses a lot of people): scaling.
<akk> You can't put your 5-megapixel image on the web -- people will hate you.
<akk> Image->Scale Image lets you make the image a more reasonable size.
<akk> It brings up a dialog showing the current size of the image. Bring it up and take a look.
<akk> IGNORE the X and Y resolution fields. They don't do what you probably expect.
<akk> Also, that menu over on the right that says pixels?
<akk> It has two useful settings: Pixels and Percent.
<akk> The other settings are misleading.
<akk> You might think 'I want to print out an 8" x 10" photo, so I should Scale to that size!"
<akk> But all GIMP knows about in an image are pixels.
<akk>  If you don't have enough pixels, it won't look good printed.
<akk> If you have too many, it'll be too big to put on a web site.
<akk> (Personally I try to keep web images around 550-800 pixels, biggest dimension.)
<akk> <mhall119|work> QUESTION: what's the best scaling interpolation?
<akk> That's something people argue about. Either Cubic or Lanczos is good
<akk> but Lanczos has some problems in certain situations -- Cubic works pretty well everywhere.
<akk> I usually type my number (600 or whatever) into the Width field then hit Tab
<akk> and the other field adjusts automatically. Then click Scale.
<czajkowski> 20:13 < SoftwareExplorer> QUESTION: Where does Lanczos not do well?
<akk> If you want to scale in only one dimension (not have the other field auto-adjust)
<akk> you can click the little chain-link linking the two fields.
<akk> I actually don't remember the details of where Lanczos breaks down. :) Would have to look it up. Ask me again after the class and I'll find it.
<czajkowski> 20:13 < Jesi> Question: I love GIMP, and actually think it's much better than photoshop, but GIMP is so underrated and many people say they don't like it, but often I find these  people don't give it a chance...they either feel intimidated by it, or simply don't like it because it's not Photoshop and often they don't want to take the time to
<czajkowski>  learn a new prgram (that's understandable), how would yuou go about encouraging someone
<czajkowski> 20:13 < Jesi> to give GIMP a try?
<akk> I agree with Jesi on that. At the same time, I can understand users not wanting to learn a new UI.
<akk> It's possible to substitute a set of key bindings that make GIMP a little more like PS ... but I don't generally recommend that since the rest of the interface is still pretty different.
<akk> Likewise, using something like Gimpshop (a hacked build of gimp) usually doesn't work out very well.
<akk> So I guess I'd just stress to them that learning a new program always takes a bit of time, but can be worth it in the end.
<akk> Okay, I think I'm caught up on questions.
<akk> After you Scale, you get a ridiculously tiny image in a huge window.
<akk> You'll probably want to zoom it to 100%.
<akk> At the bottom of the image window you can see your zoom factor (e.g. 50%, 33%, 100%).
<akk> It's a menu, so you can choose any zoom right there, or from View->Zoom.
<akk> You can also zoom in/out with the +/- keys.
<akk> Or type 1 at any time to zoom to 100% (that's great if you're previewing something you just scaled for the web).
<akk> +, - and 1 are great key bindings -- I use them all the time.
<akk> But after you zoom, the window is probably the wrong size.
<akk> View->Shrink Wrap can fix that, or you can set the two prefs under Image Windows, Zoom & Resize Behavior.
<akk> (I always set those prefs -- it drives me crazy to have a small image in a big window.)
<akk> <itnet7> QUESTION: Is part of the problem in learning from tutorials and such for new gimp users the differences found within options/locations between linux/windows or are the environments relatively the same?
<akk> GIMP is almost identical on different platforms -- the only difference is in window manager behavior
<akk> and platform-specific bugs, e.g. Apple's X11 doesn't support drag-n-drop.
<akk> So tutorials should usually work well across platforms
<akk> though not always across GIMP versions -- the UI has been changing lately and it will change again in 2.8.
<czajkowski> 0:22 < mhall119|work> QUESTION: what interface changes are coming in 2.8?
<akk> The big deal right now in GIMP 2.7 dev is "single window mode", where it will be possible to have everything (including all images) in one big window.
<akk> That's something Windows users ask for a lot, partly because they're used to MDI and partly because Windows doesn't deal as well with lots of little windows as Linux window managers do.
<akk> There are also a lot of drawing improvements, esp. for tablets ("brush dynamics")
<czajkowski> 20:22 < faberglas1> QUESTION Can you reccomend any web tutorials or books for GIMP?
<akk> and things like several tools combining into one, like all the transform tools (rotate/scale/perspective/etc).
<akk> Well, I'm biased but I kind of like my book. :)  gimpbook.com
<czajkowski> 20:24 < the_madman> QUESTION: A lot of my friends in college use Photoshop because they are graphics designers or artists, using tablets. One of the features that makes Photoshop  so appealing to them is the ability to change the brush, e.g. the amount of faded pixels from the edge, pressure etc. While I've seen these features available
<akk> There are TONS of good web tutorials, and even video tutorials like "meet the gimp".
<czajkowski>  in Krita, it fels less mature in comparison to the Gimp. Doess the Gimp support these
<czajkowski> 20:24 < the_madman> configurable brushes in some way I haven't seen?
<akk> I've collected some of the good tutorial collections at: http://gimpbook.com/links.html#gimptuts
<akk> GIMP does support some of those brush operations -- in 2.6 there's a "Brush dynamics" tab in the paint tool options
<akk> and Brush Dynamics is getting a lot smarter and more flexible in 2.8.
<akk> It should be a lot better for artists wanting to draw with tablets.
<akk> But even in 2.6 it can do some of that if you experiment with tool options.
<akk> Okay, I was going to talk about brightness/contrast next, but time is flying by so I'll skip most of that unless people are dying to hear about it.
<akk> I'll just mention that in the Brightness/Contrast dialog there's a feature new in 2.6: "Edit these settings as Levels"
<akk> and from Levels, you can Edit as Curves
<akk> which is a really cool and useful feature, so play with it if you want more control than regular brightness/contrast.
<akk> A couple of questions I missed: <Xiella_> QUESTION: brush dynamics, do you mean rotatable brushes without using a plugin?
<akk> Brush rotation is different from dynamics, but my understanding is that it will be in 2.8. (I hope that's true.)
<akk> <Jesi> Question: You've been using GIMP for several years, and most likely keep up with the roadmap, what can we expect from GIMP in the future (this is an "intro" and I don't expect this question to answered unless time permits :) )
<akk> Because of time I won't try to give a detailed answer, but there are a lot of UI changes underway (there's a "gimp UI brainstorm" blog where some of this gets discussed).
<akk> Now, a tip about rotation (this is another section that I'm going to cut shorter than I'd planned):
<akk> most of you probably already know the free rotation tool (just after the Crop tool in the toolbox)
<akk> Click on the tool, click in the image, drag around and it rotates.
<akk> You can hit return when you're happy with the rotation -- no need to use the dialog that pops up (or use ESC to cancel).
<akk> But sometimes you have a photo where the horizon isn't level
<akk> like http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/94/Hondarribia_Cabo_Higuer.jpg/800px-Hondarribia_Cabo_Higuer.jpg
<akk> Instead of just rotating and trying to guess when it's roughly level
<akk> you can go to Tool Options (usually right under the Toolbox)
<akk> and look for the third option down, "Direction".
<akk> Set that to "Corrective (Backward)".
<akk> Then set Preview (farther down) to "Grid".
<akk> Now, when you click in the image, drag so that the grid lines up with the horizon.
<akk> Then when you hit Enter (or click Rotate), it'll rotate so that the horizon is level.
<akk> I can't believe how long I went wishing for something like that and not knowing it was already there.
<akk> BTW, there's been some discussion in -chat about rotating brushes to follow the direction of pen movement.
<akk> That *may* make it into 2.8 (I hope, I hope) but it's actually possible to do that now with animated brushes.
<akk> There's an "ant" brush somewhere on the web where the ants rotate following the direction of the mouse as you draw.
<akk> But there's no documentation on how to make brushes that do that, so it's hard to make new ones.
<akk> Okay, how is this going? Am I going too fast, too slow, too basic, not enough basic stuff?
<akk> <johanbr> QUESTION: Have any usability studies been done with GIMP? If so, what were the results?
<czajkowski> 20:40 < johanbr> QUESTION: Have any usability studies been done with GIMP? If so, what were the results?
<akk> heh, sorry, czajkowski
<akk> GIMP has a UI person in charge of the design, peter sikking
<akk> who has sort of looked at usability though I'm not sure there have been actual formal studies.
<akk> (I'd like to see some larger usability studies myself.)
<akk> Question: Now my rotated pic has cricket borders, how to correct that?
<akk> When you rotate, you end up with transparent edges. To get rid of them, use the Crop tool
<akk> (the icon looks like a scalpel or x-acto knife) and drag in the image to include only the inner part.
<akk> There's no way to have Rotate do that automatically, unfortunately.
<akk> QUESTION: when I take a screen shot and want to add an arrow or circle something how do I do that?
<akk> Great question!
<akk> First, you definitely want to use layers for that.
<akk> So you want to make sure your Layers dialog is visible. It should say Layers -- if you don't see a window like that,
<akk> Windows->Dockable dialogs->Layers will bring it up.
<akk> Then create a new layer: that's the New Layer button at the bottom left of the Layers dialog.
<akk> Now you have a new transparent layer to draw on. that way, you can draw as much as you want but your original image is still safe.
<akk> Now choose a drawing tool -- I usually use the Paintbrush.
<akk> In the Paintbrush's Tool Options, there's a place to choose Brush.
<akk> By default it's too big, so you probably want a slightly smaller brush (one of the small circles).
<akk> Then you can scribble/draw on your layer.
<akk> <mhall119|work> akgraner: for squares and circles, use the appropriately shaped selection tool to define it, then Edit->Stroke Selection
<akk> (saved me some typing there :)
<akk> and for straight lines, click on the start point, then shift-click on the end point.
<akk> And that just leaves arrows -- making a good looking arrowhead is tricky
<akk> and what I do is google for gimp arrow brush and download an appropriate set of brushes that include a bunch of arrowheads.
<akk> <toobuntu> QUESTION: How can one smudge personally-identifying information out of a screenshot?
<akk> There's actually a tool called the Smudge tool that works well for that. I've used it on license plates and such.
<akk> You could also use the Clone tool or the paintbrush, but Smudge is usually enough.
<akk> Running out of time, and I had two sets of things I really want to talk about, so let's see if I can get them both in.
<akk> First, selection. That's how you select part of an image (e.g. just the koala and not the background)
<akk> so you can paste it somewhere else.
<akk> GIMP has a tool called the Free Select tool (or Lasso tool, from its toolbox icon)
<akk> that was useless until 2.6 but is now awesome :)
<akk> You can draw freehand with it, but you can also do click click click to connect-the-dots.
<akk> I recommend turning on "feather" to make the edges of the selection slightly fuzzy
<akk> (more fuzzy if you're trying to select a really furry animal, so you don't have to select individual hairs).
<akk> But the real trick to selection is: don't worry too much about getting it right as you're connecting the dots with the Lasso tool, because you can fix it later.
<akk> In your image window, at the lower left corner, there's a tiny inconspicuous button
<akk> just to the left of the scrollbar
<akk> marked only by a black and white dotted-line square.
<akk> If you hover over it, it says "Toggle Quick Mask."
<akk> The button changes to a red-outline square, to show you're in Quickmask mode
<akk> and the image view changes to have red everywhere that's NOT selected.
<akk> In the parts that ARE selected, you can see the image (no red mask).
<akk> Once you're in Quickmask mode, painting black makes things NOT selected (red); painting white makes them selected.
<akk> So you can zoom way in, to 500% or whatever, and get your selection details perfect.
<akk> Click on the Quickmask button again to go back to normal mode.
<akk> Eek, 5 minutes. Okay, the other thing I want to get in is two really cool GIMP UI tricks.
<akk> First,  dynamic key bindings. First you have to turn them on.
<akk> Edit->Preferences, Interface, and check the box labeled "Use dynamic keyboard shortcuts".
<akk> Now, if you bring up a menu, hover over an item and press a key (with a modifier, like shift/ctrl/alt)
<akk> it will assign that key to that item.
<akk> So e.g. I can click on Colors, hover over Curves (because I do Curves a lot) and type Shift-C
<akk> and now every time I do Shift-C, the Curves dialog comes up.
<czajkowski>  QUESTION: How many people work on the GIMP code?
<akk> Second is tear-offs -- if you have a menu you're using a lot (say, lots of things from Filters->Map)
<akk> if you right-click in the image, you'll get a copy of the regular menubar menus
<akk> only every menu has a dotted line at the top -- click on it and that menu "tears off" and stands as a window on the desktop.
<akk> GIMP is a surprisingly small project. I'd estimate something like 5 active developers, maybe another 5 or so who contribute small amounts fairly regularly
<akk> and then maybe double that number who contribute less often.
<akk> Okay, I guess we're done. Thanks, all!
* jcastro changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to Ubuntu Open Week! https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek (changes made, please check regularly) || Session: Giving Useful Feedback with Murat Gunes || All questions go in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<jcastro> thanks akk!
<jcastro> mgunes, introduce yourself and take it away!
<mgunes> jcastro, thanks. I'll take half a minute to tile my windows..
<mgunes> Hi. I'm Murat GÃ¼neÅ - I'm part of the Ubuntu QA team.
<mgunes> In this session, I'll cover good practices in providing feedback of any sort to different participants in free software (such as developers, bug triagers, designers), and Ubuntu specifically, in different contexts.
<mgunes> For the sake of brevity, I'll assume these contexts to be bug reports, development discourse, and design discourse. But as you'll note, the basic principles tend to overlap to a great extent, and apply to other areas as well.
<mgunes> And as should be obvious, this is a much bigger subject than can be covered in an hour-long talk, so I'll try to provide links to some useful documents that those interested in more details can pursue.
<mgunes> Please post your questions, if any, to #ubuntu-classroom-chat at any time you like, and I'll pause a few times to try to answer them.
<mgunes> I'll avoid the classic dictionary definition and Open Week opening: "What is feedback, anyway?" :)
<mgunes> Since, I'll be assuming we're all on the same page here: we're talking about feedback in social systems, and free software specifically - the act of making the output of your experience about a present social product known, in an effort to improve it in the future.
<mgunes> The first context I want to talk about is perhaps the most obvious one: bug reports.
<mgunes> The process of finding, reporting, triaging and fixing bugs in public space is a unique strength of the free software ecosystem.
<mgunes> It's the ace in our hand, which the proprietary, in-house software industry lacks. How fast free software matures mainly depends on how fast it can afford to fail and be fixed, in public and in a distributed way.
<mgunes> This, obviously, is where the value of good bug reports comes in. The more readily actionable bug reports are, and the more efficient the exchange that takes place in them, the better.
<mgunes> I'll share some "absolute minimum" tips on making your bug reports more likely to be attended and acted upon by bug triagers and developers in a timely manner.
<mgunes> 1) Be concise!
<mgunes> Telling the long story of how your video card worked wonderfully with one Ubuntu release, but failed miserably on the next one, and how your friend who has the same card had no problems with either, may be tempting, but resist that temptation when reporting a bug.
<mgunes> If you skip right to the heart of the problem, and just describe that, and add the necessary technical information, that's just enough.
<mgunes> Keep in mind that people who evaluate bug reports have to read through hundreds of lines of bug descriptions every day.
<mgunes> Having to read through long paragraphs to figure out what exactly the problem is can be exhausting, and can cause people to skip your report in favor of others which are brief and to the point, since there are always more than enough bug reports to attend...
<mgunes> If you feel that you *must* tell a long story to put the bug in context, keep the main bug description to a brief summary, and tell the rest in the comments. This way, the main description is clearer and easier to read.
<mgunes> 2) Follow up with your bug report.
<mgunes> Launchpad will subscribe you to new bug reports you file, and send you mail each time someone comments on them.
<mgunes> That is, unless you opt out by unsubscribing, which is rarely a good idea.
<mgunes> Trying different combinations of settings and hardware configurations, trying to reproduce the bug under different conditions, testing proposed patches, responding to questions asked by developers and bug triagers are activities that are as important as the initial act of reporting the bug.
<mgunes> 3) Make sure your bug report contains the required technical information, such as logs and backtraces.
<mgunes> If you use the "Help > Report a Problem" menu item in most default Ubuntu applications to report your bug, or the "ubuntu-bug" command (which are the preferred ways of reporting bugs), the Apport bug reporting tool will take care of this for you.
<mgunes> (For a detailed description of why it's rarely a good idea to report bugs directly at Launchpad, take a look at http://mdzlog.alcor.net/2009/03/31/please-dont-report-ubuntu-bugs-directly-to-launchpad/ .)
<mgunes> Still, there may be cases where you may not be able to use Apport, or where Apport may not collect the required information.
<mgunes> For these cases, there's one URL that everyone serious about helping Ubuntu through filing good bug reports should keep in mind (no excuses!):
<mgunes> * drum roll *
<mgunes> * curtains open *
<mgunes> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingProcedures
<mgunes> This beautiful wiki page has links to various documents about debugging different parts of your system, which are actively maintained by developers, QA engineers and dedicated testers.
<mgunes> Whenever you're dealing with a mysterious crash, non-working hardware or problematic software, and you're stuck and don't know where to go, remember this page.
<mgunes> One more thing regarding the use of Apport:
<mgunes> As I said, the best practice is to report bugs using "Help > Report a Problem" or "ubuntu-bug".
<mgunes> But if you've not been able to use these tools, or neglected to do so, but want debugging information automatically attached to your bug report later on, you can use the "apport-collect" command, given that the package you're dealing with has Apport hooks (here's a list of packages that do: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Apport#Apport%20Hooks%20available).
<mgunes> Just issue "apport-collect #123456", where #123456 is obviously the number of your bug report, and Apport will take care of the rest.
<mgunes> <dscassel> Question: You find a bug, fire up apport and find someone's reported it, with a good debugging info, but nobody's touched it in months.  Beyond clicking "this bug affects me" and maybe leaving a comment, is there anything I can do?
<mgunes> Good question.
<mgunes> It really depends on the nature of the bug, but usually, yes.
<mgunes> One thing you can check is whether the log or backtrace is actually identical to yours.
<mgunes> If not, and the software has changed over the course of the time that the bug has remained idle, you can attach your own debugging information.
<mgunes> In general, whenever you have new, non-redundant debugging information, it's a good idea to attach it to the bug report, since you'll be adding new information that may further help evaluate the nature of the bug.
<mgunes> Another thing you can do is stop by at #ubuntu-bugs and ask for assistance on whether there's something you can do about that particular bug.
<mgunes> <Jesi> Question: generally people don't want bugs to happen, but say you want to look for any possible bugs, is there anyway to do system diagnostics and tsting other than the "System Testing" feature that comes with Ubuntu?
<mgunes> There are various diagnostics tools not associated with Ubuntu, which you may pursue, but the best practical way of finding bugs, barring automated testing, is to actually use and test the software in question.
<mgunes> Since time is limited, I'll conclude this part by citing some must-read literature on the nature of the bug cycle and good bug reporting practices:
<mgunes> "Bug Reporting in Ubuntu" by Bryce Harrington: http://www2.bryceharrington.org:8080/drupal/node/35
<mgunes> "Equilibrium in Free Software Testing" by Matt Zimmermann: http://mdzlog.alcor.net/2009/04/10/equilibrium-in-free-software-testing/
<mgunes> "The Bug Reporting Culture: 10 Things To Avoid, 10 Things You Must Do" by Fabian Rodriguez: http://www.fabianrodriguez.com/blog/2008/01/18/the-bug-reporting-culture-10-things-to-avoid-10-things-you-must-do/
<mgunes> Any other questions?
<mgunes> <Jesi> Question: What if you find a bug, that isn't really associated to any program as far as you know and your not given the option to send a bug report,  like a little display quirk, and you generally end up in the forums, like for example: when I get a notification in GNOME, the display box is further down on the screen than it should be.
<mgunes> It's a good idea to ask in the development and testing discussion forum whether the particular behavior you're getting may be a bug (don't forget to do a search!).
<mgunes> That saves us lots of false positives and duplicates.
<mgunes> If you can't be sure of the right package to report a bug in, take a look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/FindRightPackage .
<mgunes> If that doesn't help, feel free to ask in the forums, the #ubuntu-bugs channel, or the ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list.
<mgunes> The second context I'll touch on is development discourse.
<mgunes> By this, I mean the general discussion surrounding development decision-making.
<mgunes> Since time is flowing fast, I'll get straight to sharing my tips
<mgunes> 1) Make sure you understand the original rationale.
<mgunes> People often jump to conclusions about technical decisions that they don't agree with. While it's inevitable that there will be lots of technical decisions you don't agree with in a project as large and complex as Ubuntu, keep in mind that every design decision will make sense to someone, at some level, and a lot of consideration and planning goes into each one.
<mgunes> It's very hard, if not impossible, to arrive at a good criticism of any decision without knowing its exact rationale. You may find yourself thinking that you knew what the rationale of a certain unpopular decision was, since lots of people in the "blogosphere", forums, Slashdot comments and the like keep reiterating it, often not very accurately.
<mgunes> But it's always a good idea to be skeptical, and assume that you don't know the exact rationale unless you heard it first hand, from the source. The internet is very good at amplifying and spreading misinformation.
<mgunes> 2) Be results-oriented.
<mgunes> Discussing a critical piece of UI functionality, which compression algorithm to default to, or whether to manage windows this way or that way makes more sense can be very absorbing and even fun in itself.
<mgunes> But it can lead people to losing sight of the tasks and goals at hand as well.
<mgunes> Remind yourself that discussions are not an end to themselves, but a means to an end. And that beyond a certain threshold, every minute spent discussing is a minute spend not working.
<mgunes> 3) Do not assume bad faith.
<mgunes> Unfortunately, it's becoming increasingly common in many development-related discussions that one "side" assumes the other to have negative intentions, or a hidden agenda.
<mgunes> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assume_bad_faith lists a number of things that, if you find yourself thinking, you should take some time off discussing. It applies pretty well to free software projects as well.
<mgunes> (Warning: some "strong language" there.)
<mgunes> 4) Make an effort to be original.
<mgunes> Knowing about previous criticism and feedback, and trying to avoid rehashing is always a good idea, since people have limited bandwidth in which to deal with feedback, and it's best reserved to original feedback.
<mgunes> Mailing lists are notorious, especially among newcomers, for being hard to search through, but tools such as Gmane (http://www.gmane.org/) and MarkMail (http://markmail.org/) make them easier to search for previous discussions.
<mgunes> It's always a good idea to do a search to find out whether the particular idea you want to put forward has been brought up before.
<mgunes> If there are no other questions, I'd like to continue with the last context I'll cover: design and "artwork" discourse.
<mgunes> Discussions around design often tend to revolve around the notions of "like" and "dislike".
<mgunes> The cases where stating your like or dislike of a particular piece of design is enough, or good feedback, are very rare.
<mgunes> It's always a good idea to accompany statements of like and dislike with reasoning. Why do you not like it?
<mgunes> Stating specifics helps: which parts? What does the design not allow you to do, and what goals in your daily usage does it make harder to achieve?
<mgunes> (It's a good idea to mind the separation between tasks and goals. Goals are things you want to achieve by using the software. Tasks are particular bits you have to perform to reach your goals.)
<mgunes> Many design discussions are concluded with the statement that "Design is subjective", thus there's no wrong or right.
<mgunes> While there's room for subjectivity in design, it's not an arbitrary act of organization and beautification.
<mgunes> It's done with specific goals and requirements in mind, and if those are not satisfied, the design can be criticized for being "wrong".
<mgunes> Hence the tip I want to share: Mind what the design is trying to achieve, the criteria for achieving it, and the rationale for those criteria.
<mgunes> If any of there are lacking in the discussion, or concealed, ambiguous or not well-stated, that's not a good discussion.
<mgunes> Concentrate on obtaining this data first.
<mgunes> MÃ¡irÃ­n Duffy of Fedora has a recent blog post where she cites some useful resources for evaluating design based on established principles and vocabulary: http://mairin.wordpress.com/2009/10/24/f12-wallpaper-sprinting/
<mgunes> <Jesi> Question: many people are often critical of prototype, alpha and beta releases, even though they are not final and are released to work out the bugs or to brainstorm, how can one get that message across so things can be productive instead of destructive?
<mgunes> People who tend to over-criticize prototypes or early pre-release software tend not to be familiar with how free software development and desing works.
<mgunes> While stressing the fact that "it's alpha" or "it's a prototype" can be useful per discussion, the better long term solution is to "teach people to fish" - to introduce them to the reasons why people release early and often, why prototypes and wireframes are opened to public scrutiny in the first place, etc.
<mgunes> We're almost out of time; I can perhaps answer one more question, if you have one.
<mgunes> <BlackNinjaVirus> QUESTION: Should we always fresh install ? ? ?
<mgunes> No :)
<mgunes> I think that concludes my session. Thanks everyone.
<mgunes> I think that concludes my session. Thanks everyone.
<nhandler> Alright, so I guess I'm up now
<nhandler> My name is Nathan Handler, and today, I will be talking about Ubuntu Membership
* akgraner changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to Ubuntu Open Week! https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek (changes made, please check regularly) || Session: Ubuntu Membership - Nathan Handler  || All questions go in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<nhandler> Ubuntu Membership is a way that the Ubuntu community recognizes people who have made substantial and sustained contributions to Ubuntu
<nhandler> Ubuntu Members also gain certain benefits
<nhandler> For example, all Ubuntu Members are entitled to an @ubuntu.com email address, a special ubuntu/member cloak on freenode, a site on people.ubuntu.com, and several other benefits
<nhandler> A complete list of these benefits is available on the wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership
<nhandler> For several years, users who wished to be recognized as Ubuntu Members needed the approval of the Community Council
<nhandler> However, the Community Council decided to delegate that power to the Regional Membership Boards
<nhandler> We now have 3 Regional Membership Boards (Americas; Europe, Middle East, and Africa; Asia and Oceania)
<nhandler> For most people in the community, you will want to go to one of these Regional Membership Boards in order to become a member
<nhandler> However, there are a few other councils that can grant membership
<nhandler> For instance, users who are active in the development community can go to the MOTU Council and apply to become a MOTU, Core Developer, or Contributing Developer
<nhandler> Becoming a member of any of those teams will also result in you becoming an Ubuntu Member
<nhandler> Other councils, such as the Kubuntu Council and Edubuntu Council, can also grant Ubuntu Membership
<nhandler> I prepared a small chart to show the different ways that you can become an Ubuntu Member: http://people.ubuntu.com/~nhandler/membership.png
<nhandler> Now, before I continue, do we have any questions?
<nhandler> 17:23:08 < ? Jesi> Question: what kind of site do you mean? regarding people.ubuntu.com
<nhandler> All Ubuntu Members are granted sftp access to a web-accessible directory on people.ubuntu.com (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PeopleUbuntuCom)
<nhandler> This directory can be used to host files are a website. However, anything you upload should be related to helping Ubuntu and be free. There are a few other restrictions as well, which are explained on the wiki page I linked to
<nhandler> 17:23:45 < b1ackcr0w> Question: is contributing codethe only route to membership?
<nhandler> No. Contributions can be made in any area of the community. You can contribute code, artwork, translations, documentation, help on the forums/IRC, or be active in your LoCo. These are just a few of the ways you can contribute, and all of them are looked at when you apply for membership
<nhandler> 17:24:15 < ? openweek1> QUESTION - Do you have to be especially /particularly/ qualified to become a member? What is the prefered route from noob to membership?
<nhandler> You do not need to be an expert in a certain area to become a member. You simply need to make significant and sustained contributions.
<nhandler> There is also no particular route you must take. You should simply contribute to whatever area(s) you are interested in
<nhandler> 17:24:32 < sebsebseb> QUESTION:  If people have been banned from #ubuntu a few or more times in the past, but since then have become  rather useful and very active helpers in #ubuntu could  they ever get accepted as a community member, whilst continuing to use the name that had been banned from the channel in the past?
<nhandler> In that situation, the ban would not be completely overlooked. However, if one of the membership boards sees that the user has really changed since being banned, and has made significant and sustained contributions to the community, it is still very possible for the user to become an Ubuntu member
<nhandler> 17:24:55 < sebsebseb> QUESTION: What do you think of the entry  requirements and  success rate of applications?
<nhandler> The success rate of applicants is tough to talk about. From my experience, users who are able to show the membership boards proof of their significant and sustained contributions (usually documented on their wiki page), have testimonials from other Ubuntu Members, and overall come prepared to the meetings tend to be accepted for membership.
<nhandler> However, membership is definitely not granted to everyone. I have seen many users asked to re-apply in a few months due to not having *sustained* contributions (usually for several months) or not having their contributions documented on their wiki page
<nhandler> However, I feel that the requirements for membership are fine. They are pretty vague, which allows them to be applied to a large number of different types of people with different types of contributions
<nhandler> 17:26:11 < sebsebseb> QUESTION:  Is helping loads of people online and only/mainly onlilne ever enough to become accepeted as a community member?
<nhandler> Helping people online (both on IRC and on the forums) are great ways to contribute. The one challenging thing about this is that it is very hard to document contributions made on IRC. I would strongly suggest backing these types of contributions up with strong testimonials from other Ubuntu Members
<nhandler> 17:28:09 < sebsebseb> QUESTION:   Is it true that to become a community member, will have to do things in person with the community?
<nhandler> No. You do not need to participate in a LoCo or work with other Ubuntu users in person to become an Ubuntu Member. However, contributions to a LoCo definitely count as a form of contributing to Ubuntu
<nhandler> Alright, I think I got to all of the questions.
<nhandler> Now, I'm sure many of you are wondering about some ways to improve your chances of being accepted as an Ubuntu Member
<nhandler> My biggest piece of advice would be to document all of your contributions on your wiki page as you go.
<nhandler> Having all of your contributions documented on your wiki will allow the membership boards (as well as other people) to see all of your contributions in one convenient place. This will also help you determine when you have met the "significant contributions requirement"
<nhandler> I would also suggest that you sit in on a few Regional Membership Board meetings prior to applying
<nhandler> This will allow you to see how the meetings are organized, the types of contributions other users made in order to become members, and better determine if you are indeed ready to apply
<nhandler> Now, being an Ubuntu Member also carries some responsibility
<nhandler> You are representing the Ubuntu community. As a result, you need to be sure you are abiding by the Ubuntu Code of Conduct
<nhandler> Since Ubuntu Membership is a privilege, not a right, it can be revoked for severe violations of the CoC or other inappropriate behavior that reflects poorly on the community
<nhandler> I would like to address one question that I have been asked on many occassions...
<nhandler> "How long do I need to contribute before I can become an Ubuntu Member?" and "How much do I need to contribute before I can become an Ubuntu Member?" (I lied, there were 2 questions)
<nhandler> There is no magic amount of time or number of contributions
<nhandler> There are guidelines and suggestions for what "sustained" means, but there are no strict requirements for either of those questions
<nhandler> When asked these questions, I normally tell people that they will know when they are ready. If you are really not sure if you are ready, I would suggest waiting a little longer, contributing a little more, and then re-assessing the situation. You should only apply for membership once you believe you are ready.
<nhandler> Alright, I'll answer a few more questions now
<nhandler> 17:28:09 < sebsebseb> QUESTION:   Is it true that to become a community member, will have to do things in person with the community?
<nhandler> 17:49:03 < aim1159> QUESTION: most of the contribution made by non native speakers made via their native language. and most of ubuntu members are english/european langiage speackers. hwo to  deal with that - there few ubuntu members who can read russian, for example, how person from russian-speacking country (for example) can apply for memebership? how he  could proove testimonials?
<nhandler> Alright, speaking english is not a requirement to contribute to Ubuntu or to become an Ubuntu Member (although it does make things easier)
<nhandler> If you are unable to speak english, I would suggest trying to find a user who can translate your messages during the membership meeting. This will make things go a lot smoother. Otherwise, as a last result, you can use Google Translator (or a similar service)
<nhandler> If testimonials could also be translated to English (with the original present on the wiki page as well), that would also speed up the process.
<nhandler> 17:50:50 < ianto> QUESTION:  Has another title been considered other than "Ubuntu Member" since we are all members and representitives of the Ubuntu community
<nhandler> I personally have not heard any discussion about changing the title. However, I can not say for certain that none has taken place. And although we are all "representing" the Ubuntu community, Ubuntu Membership makes you an official representative (which is why only Ubuntu Members are entitled to Ubuntu business cards for example)
<nhandler> Any more questions? Please remember to include "QUESTION:" at the beginning so I can easily spot them
<nhandler> 17:56:07 < mhall119|work> QUESTION: I have a ubuntu-derivative called Qimo designed for kids, a lot of my contribution has been towards that.  Would it count towards Ubuntu membership?
<nhandler> From my experience, the membership boards tend to prefer contributions made to Ubuntu itself
<nhandler> If you have packages in Qimo that are not present in Ubuntu, or special artwork, you might consider getting those into Ubuntu
<nhandler> 17:56:16 < aim1159> nhandler: the question was not about how can a non-native english speacker apply for ubuntu membership. it was about how can a regional board recognize that this person  have made a big thing for ubuntu and that is not. there is now doubt when some person have made some code or translation contributions, but if he just do some learning
<nhandler>  courses ordo advocating ubuntu? how can thris be counted?
<nhandler> For online courses, this is pretty easy to prove. Simply link to the IRC Logs from the course. For real life events, it gets a little more difficult. If you have a script that you used, uploading that to the wiki would be awesome (it would also allow other users to benefit from it). Testimonials are another great way to show this
<nhandler> 17:57:50 < mhall119|work> Followup Question: If I contribute Qimo's packages to Universe, would the contribution count then?
<nhandler> Yep. Packaging applications for Ubuntu are valid contributions. Although, if all of your contributions are in the form of packaging, you might consider applying for membership through the MOTU Council
<nhandler> 18:00:25 < mhall119|work> QUESTION: are contributions to 9.04 at this point still valid contributions?
<nhandler> Yep. Contributions to 9.04 (Jaunty) are still valid contributions to Ubuntu, and can be listed on your wiki page when applying for membership
<nhandler> 18:00:57 < ianto> QUESTION:  Does the free time of the applicatant have any bearing upon the membership results?  I for example have spent 12 hours a day writing essays and then contribute  in small ways to Ubuntu and it's community.  Is this considered at all?
<nhandler> The members of the membership boards know that everyone has other real life obligations besides Ubuntu. They keep this in mind when deciding whether or not to grant membership to a user.
<nhandler> Even if you can only contribute to Ubuntu for one hour each day, as long as your contributions are significant, and you continue contributing for a sustained amount of time, you can become a member
<nhandler> 18:04:13 < sebsebseb>  QUESTION: Surely  if you think about it having  Ubuntu Membership in the first place, is a bit like saying to people,  well we are better than you when it comes to  Ubuntu, because we are community members, and you are not?
<nhandler> This should never happen. Being an Ubuntu Member does not make anyone "better" than anyone else. I would be very concerned if you have actually experienced this taking place
<nhandler> If there are no more questions, then I guess I am done here
<nhandler> If you have any more questions, feel free to PM me or send me an email
#ubuntu-classroom 2009-11-05
<deanna> hey yall
<deanna> anyone here
<deanna> i need some information please
<kut> yap
<deanna> how do I get my sound back after upgrading to 9.10
<deanna> it was there for aminute
<deanna> but then went by the waqy saide
<deanna> :)
<deanna> Hmmm
<kut> have you checked the forums?
<mhall119> also try asking in #ubuntu
<deanna> well if anybody has a clue and can help a poor girl out let me know
<deanna> what is that may aI ask
<stooj> deanna: #ubuntu is the best place for support questions
<deanna> can ya please tell me
<deanna> I am really slow
<deanna> I just finally figured out how to install upgrades :-)
<deanna> so i am in the right place
<deanna> hello
<mhall119> deanna: there is a support channel for Ubuntu
<mhall119> it is #ubuntu
<mhall119> that is where the people most likely to be able to help you will be
<stooj> Hi deanna - what programme are you using to talk to us here?
<deanna> not the #ubuntu-classroom
<deanna> ubuntu 9.10\
<stooj> No
<mhall119> empathy then, probably
<deanna> the newset one and thee only one that o\worked with ethernet
<running_rabbit07> xchat?
<deanna> how do i find it
<running_rabbit07> empathy?
<mhall119> I think empathy
<stooj> Try typing /j #ubuntu
<mhall119> I don't think xchat comes in 9.10
<deanna> im in 9.1
<mhall119> stooj: empathy doesn't understand /commands
<running_rabbit07> nope, I had to install it
<deanna> in the terminal
<deanna> stooj?
<stooj> Bah. Just setting up an empathy IRC account so I can figure it out
<stooj> deanna: no
<deanna> k tanks
<stooj> Sorry, don't worry about tht command
<deanna> let me know
<stooj> Will find you the correct way
<mhall119> deanna: go to Room->Join Room
<deanna> Thanks
<mhall119> sorry, join new
<deanna> k here does it day room
<mhall119> select IRC from the drop-down
<deanna> say*
<mhall119> and type #ubuntu for the room name
<deanna> i think im there lol
<stooj> Beat me to it, mhall119
<deanna> Thanks and i also will stay here if yall find an answer :-0 MUCH APPRECITAED
<deanna> LUV UBUNTU LOL
<running_rabbit07> you are not from lynchburg are ya?
<deanna> lol no
<deanna> Michigan hick here lol
<deanna> it also says that i was rebrouted
<deanna> outt of #UBUNTU
<running_rabbit07> k, got a sister inlaw there, she been saying she was gonna load Ubuntu for years
<deanna> rerouted*
<deanna> I recently puchased my laptop with it on it
<running_rabbit07> sweet
<deanna> and I have been wqiting for the day I can find sumthing else
<stooj> Awesome deanna
<running_rabbit07> Ubuntu is great, once tweaked
<kut> like any OS
<deanna> but then 9.10 cam eout
<deanna> an d i could get online again
<deanna> exactly kut
<running_rabbit07> once you get your sound fixed, come here and ask for some pointers to make that thing work better for ya
<deanna> yea and i was ready to delete it cause icouldnt figure it out
<deanna> but like ai said
<deanna> i am a wee slow on techno things
<deanna> i am totally wanting to learn it
<running_rabbit07> just takes some time and effort, mostly gotta ask the right questions at the right time
<deanna> yes it does
<deanna> AND determintation
<deanna> LOL
<deanna> which i have sometimes :-)
<running_rabbit07> It took me a few weeks to get it down.
<stooj> OK, deanna - have you read this: http://psychocats.net/ubuntu/
<running_rabbit07> great site
<deanna> WHAT IS THE COMMAND TO FIND OUT WHAT SOUND EVICES ARE INSTALLED
<deanna> sorry caps
<stooj> deanna: Recommended reading when you're starting out
<deanna> im missing fingers
<deanna> I totally will
<deanna> bookmarked it :-)
<stooj> Deanna: Also, try joining #ubuntu again
<running_rabbit07> in the stsatus icon in the upper right, does the speaker have a red x?
<deanna> k but it says if i leave somehting bad will happen lol
<running_rabbit07> deanna, have you set up a Ubuntuforums.org account yet?
<deanna> yes
<deanna> i think so the main ubuntulinux.org
<deanna> let me try
<running_rabbit07> it may be a bit slower, but you may get better results there
<deanna> AHH yes i have
<deanna> lol
<deanna> for my ethernet a few weeks ago lol
<deanna> i was left confused :-)
<running_rabbit07> happens sometimes
<deanna> what should i search for
<running_rabbit07> what system are you using?
<deanna> i have tried no sound and it said too general
<deanna> ubuntu 9.10
<deanna> karmic kaola
<running_rabbit07> use google search to find answers in ubuntuforums
<deanna> k
<akk> ha, "no sound" will get you thousands of threads.
<deanna> yea it said too generall
<deanna> LOL
<running_rabbit07> such as "ubuntu 9.10 audio problems
<akk> It's an all too common linux problem, alas.
<deanna> awesome
<deanna> tanks i will try it out
<deanna> :-)
<stooj> deanna: Also, there is a Michigan Ubuntu user group that will probably be able to help
<running_rabbit07> if you include ubuntu, it will almost always take you to a thread that can help
<deanna> thats cool
<stooj> deanna: If you join #ubuntu-us-mi you will find them
<akk> maybe 9.10 OR karmic -- a lot of people post about releases by name, not number
<running_rabbit07> akk: true
<akk> (I always use the name when blogging problems/workarounds)
<deanna> im so inspired that i got the ethernet going by myself I HAVE FAITH IN MYSELF LOL with help of corse
<running_rabbit07> deanna: http://wwww.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1311206
<running_rabbit07> it may be helpful
<deanna> k
<deanna> installing gnome alsamixer is that a bad thing?
<deanna> im afraid i may do too much and clog my machine
<running_rabbit07> alsamixer isn't very big
<running_rabbit07> 610k
<running_rabbit07> need the command or can ya find it in Syanaptic Package Manager/
<running_rabbit07> ?
<stooj> extra w in that link running_rabbit07
<stooj> Hah! Still resolves though :)
<running_rabbit07> just copied and pasted, didn't even notice
<running_rabbit07> that's odd, just looked and every link I was clicking had the wwww in it
<running_rabbit07> I am glad Ubuntu is smart enough to fix my what my fingers can't
<manlycoffee> Hi
<running_rabbit07> burnt coffee?
<manlycoffee> Hi
<Shalendar[ubuntu> hello?
<Shalendar[ubuntu> my 9.10 update screwed up. grub issue
<jtatum> Shalendar[ubuntu, ask in #ubuntu
<Shalendar[ubuntu> ooooookay
<Shalendar[ubuntu> #ubuntu
<Shalendar[ubuntu> ok, how do i get there
<jtatum>  /join #ubuntu
<Shalendar[ubuntu> thanks
<jm2> Hi Nathon
<stooj> Is #ubuntu-classroom always filled with so many support requests?
<Animagladius> Night! :)
<schithen> Hello, is there anyone who can help me? I have a hp dv6-1030us and installed ubuntu 9.10 and can't get my wireless card working
<stooj> schithen: This isn't a support channel - you'll have better luck with #ubuntu or your local ubuntu-loco channel
<thesheff17> I have a Atheros Communications Inc. AR9285 Wireless Network Adapter (PCI-Express) (rev 01)
<thesheff17> with the new ubuntu 9.10
<thesheff17> and I just can't get the wireless to work
<thesheff17> I have also installed the backports
<Treenaks> Does the machine have a wifi on/off switch? is it on?
<Treenaks> Atheros wifi should work out of the box afaik
<thesheff17_> it does not have a wireless switch
<thesheff17_> I wish it did :-/
<thesheff17_> also I have tried this post http://www.jfwhome.com/2009/08/06/perfect-ubuntu-jaunty-on-the-asus-eeepc-1005ha-and-1008ha/
<thesheff17_> and it doesn't work
<thesheff17_> I don't get how this works for jaunty but not karmica
<thesheff17_> doesn't make sense
<michaelanthony> hello?
<michaelanthony> is anyone there?
<michaelanthony> i'm a neewb in serious need of help wit my ubunto
<michaelanthony> is anyone there?
<michaelanthony> I just need to know how and  if I need to partition my Vista 64 bit OS
<Prakhar> need to install STA broadcom driver in karmic
<AlanBell> just looking at the schedule for today
<AlanBell> what is WIOS?
<AlanBell> can't imagine it is the radio station for old people http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WIOS
<stooj> Women In Open Source AlanBell
<AlanBell> ah ok thanks
<stooj> Not a problem
<AlanBell> I expanded the abbreviation on the wiki
<MenZa> AlanBell: probably a good call
 * MenZa did not know until he read up on it, either
 * gnomeye is working
<ethos101> test
<Balsaq> loud-n-clear
<ethos101> this empathy client isnt very IRC friendly... looking.
<MarkDude> ethos101,  empathy is not that great. x-chat works ok
<ethos101> im trying to include IRC in my IM.  I might try pidgin in a minute
<MarkDude> there is a funny workaround to get empathy irc friendly
<ethos101> workaround you say?
<MarkDude> yes rww showed me how to do it last week.
<ethos101> i had mirc running under wine but it's a little buggy for my taste.  it was wine beta though.
<ethos101> whats the workaround
<MarkDude> just a sec im looking googling - its someting funky
<rosemary> hi
<MarkDude> hello
<rosemary> hi
<ethos101> well, pidgins about the same.  both like to crash often
<gnomeye> ethos101: pidgin crashes? when? not so often like empathy... never
<ethos101> initially when i set up irc connection it did
<mikey_> hey guys..now that ive updated to the new Ubuntu version, I cant access my favourite browser game...no idea why (im not very technical!)
<Treenaks> which browser game is it?
<Treenaks> mikey_, also, support is in #ubuntu
<mikey_> nodiatis, its called (can I give address?)
<mikey_> ok, well ill go there if ye cant help me?
<Treenaks> Does the game not show up at all, or is it something else (can't click on it?)?
<mikey_> it loads
<mikey_> but cannot connect to the server
<mikey_> it was fine in last release
<Treenaks> I have no idea, sorry. Try on #ubuntu, they might know
<mikey_> ok I will, thanks for your time anyway :-)
<marek__> anybody here?
<Xiella> marek__: classes are over for now, I think there's about 4-5 hours til the next class?
<marek__> I have one question about ubuntu instaling
<gnomeye> Xiella: at 1500 UTC
<Xiella> gnomeye: Ah, that's right...  11 pm for me so i just think of start time as 4 am...
<Xiella> marek__: you might find more response in #ubuntu
<nik> hello is there anybody in here?
<gnomeye> yes 216 people
<gnomeye> hi ni
<gnomeye> hi nik
<dimple148> Hello i need help with my new installation of Ubuntu 9.10
<gnomeye> dimple148: you may ask in #ubuntu
<gnomeye> they might help you
<dimple148> ok thx
<nik> why can't i join #ubuntu?
<Dinozex> hey
<Dinozex> i got my disktop icons disappeared suddenly
<nalioth> Dinozex: support is in #ubuntu  :)
<Dinozex> thanks
<AFO_> Hello everyone
<AFO_> I have question..
<gnomeye> AFO_:  support is in #ubuntu
<gnomeye> you're welcome
<leedrag0n> hey everyone
<dox_drum> Hi pl!
<lovol> hello
<lovol> does anybody know how to get the software centre to work behind a http firewall? (I've never used ubuntu before, but testing it in a Virtual box on Win7)
<AntoniTen> Do you have internet conectivity from inside the virtualbox?
<lovol> yep, I'm using ubuntu now!
<lovol> does it need more than just http forwarding/proxying do you think?
<AntoniTen> Does it restrict what ports can access the net?
<pleia2> lovol: you'll want to go to #ubuntu for support :)
<lovol> no restrictions, other than it only forwards http requests (can;t get the ftp to work with freeproxy :(
<pleia2> we'll be starting up sessions again here in about 35 minutes
<lovol> ahh right, i see this is a classroom, what gets tought here? is  there a cylabus??
<pleia2> lovol: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
<pleia2> that's the schedule for this week
<Jesi-Idle> ok, yeah you'll want to go to #Ubuntu because this channel is going to be busy here soon, but try opening up all the ports for a minute or two to see if it's a port problem
<lovol> cool, the reason I wanted ubuntu was to develop on it ( I'm a M$ sucker at the mo) and that start in 35 mins :)
<erno> hello,is xorg.conf in etc/X11 still for setting graphic?i have problem with standard settings on ubuntu 9.10.My hardware supports resolution 1024x768 100 HZ, but i dont have choice in "windowed" settings...i try configure xorg.conf but nothing happens...please help me if  you know...
<pleia2> erno: please head into #ubuntu for support
<pleia2> lovol: great! :)
<AntoniTen> UTC.equals(GMT+0)?
<FFEMTcJ> AntoniTen: yes
<AntoniTen> thanks
<Dig> test
<mhall1191work> AntoniTen: you can run "date -u" on the command line to see current UTC time
<sebsebseb> hi
<Sassinak_> Must be some week. Nobody answering me on forum
<Sassinak__> am I here or not?
<sebsebseb> Sassinak__: yes your in here
<Kmos> hi folks
<pleia2> we'll be starting sessions in a minute, so I'm going to go ahead and moderate the channel now, please take questions and discussion to #ubuntu-classroom-chat :)
<dholbach> HELLO EVERYBODY!
<dholbach> I'm here with a fantastic developer and a great friend: James "james_w" Westby
<james_w> hello
<dholbach> James and I will run a double-session block today
<dholbach> the first part of it will get you started with Ubuntu Development - getting your development environment set up and everything
* akgraner changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to Ubuntu Open Week! https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek (changes made, please check regularly) || Session: Getting Started in Ubuntu Development - James Westby and Daniel Holbach   || All questions go in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<dholbach> in the second part we'll dive head-first in some real-life activity and fix some Ubuntu bugs
<dholbach> if you could please prefix your questions with QUESTION: in #ubuntu-classroom-chat - that'd be nice
<dholbach> ie: QUESTION: james_w: I heard you're a great DJ - is that true?
<dholbach> thanks in advance. :-)
<dholbach> james_w: ready? :)
<dholbach> alright... one page you absolutely should bookmark is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/GettingStarted
<dholbach> it talks about all the stuff we're going to cover today and much much more
<dholbach> the Packaging Guide, how things in Ubuntu are done, where to find easy tasks to work on, etc. - it's all in there
<dholbach> some MOTU Videos too :)
<dholbach> one question we hear a lot is "if I want to do Ubuntu development - do I really need to run the development release?"
<dholbach> and the answer is yes
<dholbach> you need it to build packages, you need it to test packages, etc.
<james_w> you don't have to run it as your main environment though
<dholbach> luckily, you don't need to have a broken system all the time because https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/UsingDevelopmentReleases explains various ways how to do that in a sane way :)
<dholbach> (but that's linked from the Getting Started page too :))
<dholbach> so even if you don't run lucid right now (I don't blame you), let's all enable "Sources" in System -> Administration -> Software Properties -> Software
<dholbach> (please let me know in #ubuntu-classroom-chat if that takes you to the right place (I use the German version :-))
<dholbach> that will give you easy access to the source of Ubuntu
<dholbach> afterwards please run
<dholbach> sudo apt-get install --no-install-recommends gnupg pbuilder devscripts build-essential debhelper fakeroot
<dholbach> it will install a few tools we're going to need during our excercise here
<dholbach> james_w: want to say anything about the tools there?
<dholbach> or shall we talk about it later on?
<james_w> I think we should cover those tools as they come up
<dholbach> makes sense :)
<dholbach> ok, let's talk about gpg keys
<dholbach> as a developer you're going to need a GPG key in order to sign packages and indicate that it was really you who touched them last
<dholbach> (you can generally use gpg to encrypt and/or sign files and messages)
<dholbach> so whenever I upload a source package to Ubuntu, I sign it first, so the build daemons know they can trust me and let it pass :)
<dholbach> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/GnuPrivacyGuardHowto has a lot of good information about how to use and set up gpg keys
<dholbach> we'll do the short version here
<dholbach> if you don't have a key yet(!), please run:
<dholbach> gpg --gen-key
<dholbach> james_w: want to talk about the values you best select in there?
<james_w> the "comment" it asks for is optional
<james_w> most people don't have one
<james_w> and it can get confusing later if you put one in :-)
<james_w> you don't have to use an @ubuntu.com email address or anything
<dholbach> james_w: any advice for all the numbers? (I mostly stick to the default values :-))
<james_w> me too
<dholbach> ok
<dholbach> let's crack on then
<dholbach> you might get a message that it is waiting for entropy shortly after you agreed on defaults or picked different values
<dholbach> in that case, let it run and do it's thing (it waits for more random numbers to generate the key, so some additional activity on the machine is what it's waiting for)
<dholbach> now we'll set up pbuilder (which also takes a bit of time for its setup)
<dholbach> please create a file called ~/.pbuilderrc
<dholbach> and put          COMPONENTS="main universe multiverse restricted"          into it
<dholbach> this will enable all components of Ubuntu as opposed to just "main"
<dholbach> now just save it - that's all the configuration it needs right now
<dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PbuilderHowto talks about the more advanced options
<dholbach> (a good read btw.)
<dholbach> now please run
<dholbach>   sudo pbuilder create
<dholbach> this will set up the pbuilder (by downloading all the minimally required packages), which can take a bit on a slow connection
<dholbach> so what's pbuilder
<dholbach> it's a tool to build packages in a minimal and clean environment
<dholbach> the great thing about it is, 1) you don't have to install millions of packages to build the package locally (and maybe remove them afterwards), but more importantly 2) you can afterwards guarantee that the package will build in a minimal environment with just the packages it specifies for building
<dholbach> if some of you have heard of Build-Depends before - that's what I'm referring to
<dholbach> <MsMaco> QUESTION: how can we tell pbuilder to include binary-package-mangler (or whatever that "test the translations" thing is)
<dholbach> MsMaco: I think that's mentioned in the PbuilderHowto page - you can tell it to install additional packages and run arbitrary scripts in various hooks
<dholbach> do we have some more questions up until now already?
<dholbach> there's also a neat tool called pbuilder-dist (in the ubuntu-dev-tools package) that lets you build packages in various distro releases? (like: build supertux in dapper and hardy please)
<dholbach> james_w: anything you'd like to add right now?
<james_w> pbuilder rocks
<dholbach> :-)
<dholbach> short and precise - that's why we all like james_w
<james_w> you will need to run "pbuilder update"
<james_w> every few days
<james_w> that will install updated packages and update the apt lists
<dholbach> <Jesi-Idle> Question: What skills do we need to have, or should have, before we get involved in development,  are there any particular coding languages we should learn?
<dholbach> Jesi-Idle: I have that on my list in a bit :)
<dholbach> next we'll tell the packaging tools who we are
<dholbach> for that please edit ~/.bashrc in your favourite editor
<dholbach> (or .zshrc if you use zsh, etc.)
<dholbach> I added something like this to the end of the file:
<dholbach> export DEBFULLNAME='Daniel Holbach'
<dholbach> export DEBEMAIL='daniel.holbach@ubuntu.com'
<dholbach> please use the name and the email address you used for your gpg key in there
<dholbach> (although you can specify the key id somehow differently)
<dholbach> this will speed up development as you don't have to write your name all the time in changelogs and stuff
<dholbach> ....... unless you like doing that :)
<dholbach> afterwards please save the file
<dholbach> and run
<dholbach>   source ~/.bashrc
<dholbach> or restart your terminal
<dholbach> <kalon33> QUESTION: Can we use pbuilder for setting something like an automated buildd when we are making batches of packages ?
<dholbach> kalon33: you can use pbuilder in scripts to do something like that - I guess it depends on your use-case
<dholbach> james_w: did we forget anything initial?
<dholbach> ok... so while pbuilder and gpg are still doing their thing, let's talk a bit about Ubuntu Development more generally
<dholbach> I really like Jesi-Idle's question
<dholbach> because the task of doing Ubuntu Development sounds very daunting in the beginning
<dholbach> if I was to think about important skills of new Ubuntu Developers, I personally wouldn't name "C, Python, C++, Makefiles, Shell scripting, etc." first
<dholbach> but different things like:
<dholbach>  - be a good team player
<dholbach>  - liking to make things work again
<dholbach>  - don't be afraid of documentation
<dholbach>  - don't be afraid to ask when you're unsure
<dholbach>  - like doing some detective work
<dholbach> james_w: anything you'd add to the list?
<james_w> that's certainly a good start
<james_w> you need at least to be able to work a text editor
<james_w> and knowing how to work the command line is a good idea
<dholbach> yep, you're right
<james_w> any programming knowledge is a bonus
<dholbach> that's one good thing about working on Ubuntu - there's a lot to learn and we work on all packages together :)
<dholbach> a good place to talk to people about packaging and ubuntu development is the #ubuntu-motu channel
<dholbach> and ubuntu-motu-mentors@lists.ubuntu.com
<dholbach> there's a lot of friendly people who can help you getting up to speed with your first bug fixes
<dholbach> and there's of course: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/GettingStarted
<james_w> indeed
<dholbach> (did I mention it already? :-))
<dholbach> so go and bookmark it :)
<dholbach> Ubuntu Development is a lot about integrating good software better into Ubuntu
<dholbach> so packaging is your bread and butter every day
<dholbach> do we have any more questions about that?
<dholbach> Jesi-Idle: let us know if we answered your question well enough :)
<james_w> <brettalton> secondly, I would like to know specifically how to get mentored. I've gone through the wiki pages, I've added myself to the mentor request list and no one has responded. I'm a web developer that would like to learn how to package programs written in PHP, such as phpMyAdmin, KohanaPHP and some others that I've requested.
<dholbach> oh, I missed that one
<dholbach> brettalton: there's the MOTU Mentoring programme, but I daresay it's under a lot of load right now
<dholbach> if you didn't receive a reply yet, try again
<dholbach> one thing should be clear: you don't need to have a mentor to participate
<dholbach> reading the packaging guide, having a look at example packages and how they work are a GREAT way to get started
<dholbach> and that's why you'll learn much quicker by working on existing packages, because there's a lot of knowledge of hundreds of maintainers already in them
<dholbach> since you enabled "Sources" in the software properties above, a simple        apt-get source <pkgname>    will give you access to how they did it
<dholbach> brettalton: the people in #ubuntu-server might know a bit more specifically about php packages and web apps in general
<dholbach> (or the Debian PHP team)
<dholbach> any more questions?
<dholbach> seems we're good for now, but keep the questions coming! :)
<dholbach> <openweek6_> Question : Is there a place for a noob to go - for mentoring, i would like to install, configure , modify my own system so that i can better give back to the system as well to others.
<dholbach> openweek6_: I think I just answered the mentoring bit... but generally this session is a good start
<dholbach> plus https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/GettingStarted
<dholbach> plus #ubuntu-motu on irc.freenode.net :-)
<dholbach> let's crack on :)
<dholbach> so... let's say you worked on some kind of bugfix and have a patch available
<dholbach> james_w: how do I get that patch into Ubuntu?
<james_w> sponsoring!
<dholbach> yeehaw!
<dholbach> how does it work?
<james_w> this is the process by which you get an Ubuntu developer to review your changes and upload them for you
<james_w> http://people.canonical.com/~dholbach/sponsoring/ shows some of the patches that are waiting for review
<dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SponsorshipProcess explains it in detail (also linked from the getting started pages)
<james_w> beat me to it!
<dholbach> generally, you will
<dholbach>  - find a bug
<dholbach>  - fix it (YAY!)
<dholbach>  - attach the patch to the bug report
<dholbach>  - subscribe the sponsors team
<dholbach> done :)
<dholbach> they'll review it and upload it for you once they're happy
<james_w> act on any review comments if needed
<james_w> hopefully not :-)
<dholbach> :-)
<dholbach> <Jesi-Idle> Question: I'm under the impression programs get re-packaged with each version of Ubuntu, even if the packaged program hasn't changed? is this so and why is it the case? because other than a few programs I've seen, it seems like everything is already packaged
<dholbach> Jesi-Idle: it depends on what you mean by re-packaged
<dholbach> if there's no new upstream version (no changed code by the authors of that software)
<dholbach> we will often fix bugs by patching small things in the code, or add something useful to the packaging
<dholbach> let's say I package frobnicator and I uploaded version 1.4-0ubuntu1 (more about version numbers later)
<dholbach> if I decide that frobnicator isn't telling enough, I might want to add a manpage to the package
<dholbach> in that case I'd upload a 1.4-0ubuntu2
<dholbach> (I hope that makes it a bit clearer)
<dholbach> alright, so much for the mechanics of getting fixes into Ubuntu in the beginning
<dholbach> let's talk about becoming an Ubuntu developer and joining the uploaders team
<dholbach> once you've heard "you're doing great work - you should be able to upload yourself" more often from your co-developers, you should consider applying
<dholbach> the process for that is explained at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopers and will change slightly in the next few months
<dholbach> at the moment you are required to document your work a bit on your wiki page, ask for comments from developers you've worked with and attend a meeting in which a few questions will be asked
<dholbach> if all goes well, you're part of the team afterwards :)
<dholbach> <llua> question: where would i report a "bug" report of 9.10 x64 not booting on a dell xps630i computer?
<dholbach> james_w: want to take this one? :)
<james_w> hmm
<james_w> I'm not entirely sure
<dholbach> maybe more appropriate for #ubuntu-bugs?
<james_w> you'd have to do a bit more investigation to find out the package
<dholbach> maybe we have a debugging boot page?
<dholbach> if so, it's linked from https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingProcedures
<james_w> and turn on debugging to get the messages that explain why it isn't working
<james_w> (if any)
 * dholbach nods
<dholbach> ok, next question
<dholbach> <Jesi-Idle> Question: is a patch simply a documented change in code that you then apply or do you make a patch file that will run and edit another file, just wondering..
<dholbach> Jesi-Idle: nice question
<dholbach> we'll produce a bunch of patches later on
<dholbach> generally it's a text file that contains well-structured instructions on how change file A to become file B
<dholbach> james_w might be able to put it into cleverer words :)
<james_w> I think that's a damn good description actually
<dholbach> Jesi-Idle: generally "a documented change in code that you then apply" is what a patch is :)
<dholbach> so all good :)
<james_w> the "patch" command knows how to apply them, so we use that
<james_w> you'll see later
<dholbach> <openweek6_> QUESTION: bug fix, patch, develop,  What's the diff?
<dholbach> openweek6_: I'd say they're all part of each other :)
<dholbach> we'll concentrate on fixing bugs by creating patches in the second part of the session :)
<dholbach> how about a 5 minute break before diving into Ubuntu bugs?
 * dholbach would get himself some new tea :)
<james_w> good idea
<dholbach> if you have questions, keep them coming and we'll back in a few :)
* akgraner changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to Ubuntu Open Week! https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek (changes made, please check regularly) || Session: How to fix bugs in Ubuntu - James Westby and Daniel Holbach    || All questions go in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<dholbach> james_w: ready for part 2?
<james_w> yes
<dholbach> alrighty
<dholbach> do have a bug we could get started with?
<dholbach> just to answer a quick question first:
<dholbach> <jtniehof> QUESTION: (if you're not going to get to gpg later): is the Ubuntu WoT same as Debian? (i.e. do I need to get my keys signed by two different sets of people?)
<dholbach> jtniehof: it's very strongly encouraged
<dholbach> but as far as I know not enforced
<dholbach> also... if your gpg run is done now, please head to https://launchpad.net/people/+me/+editpgpkeys and add it to Launchpad
<dholbach> (that's not necessary for the example now, but very useful :-))
<dholbach> james_w: you have a bug we can start with?
<james_w> want to start with https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xtux/+bug/454115 ?
<dholbach> sounds good :)
<dholbach> james_w: want to kick off the bug fixing frenzy? :)
<james_w> ok
<james_w> so, we first need to get the source package so that we can examine it and change it
<james_w> so, please move to a temporary directory and run:
<james_w> apt-get source xtux
<james_w> that will go off and download the source package for you
<james_w> you will see some messages about what it is doing
<james_w> but it basically leaves you with the unpacked source package in
<james_w> xtux-0.2.030306
<james_w> so run:
<james_w> cd xtux-0.2.030306
<james_w> and you can see a whole bunch of files that make up this package
<james_w> the packaging itself lives in the ./debian directory
<james_w> and there are a whole bunch more files there
<james_w> we won't look at what each of them do now
<james_w> just a couple
<james_w> so, debian/changelog
<james_w> this is the changelog of the packaging
<james_w> you can see changes that have been made
<james_w> debian/control is some information about the package
<james_w> it has things like the description, dependencies and the list
<james_w> and the like
<james_w> debian/copyright contains information on the license of the pakcage
<james_w> so, let's look at the bug
<james_w> so, the problem is:
<james_w> Removing xtux-client ...
<james_w> dpkg: error processing xtux-client (--remove):
<james_w>  subprocess installed post-removal script returned error exit status 1
<james_w> what does this mean?
<james_w> the "post-removal script" that it refers to is one that a set of scripts
<james_w> that a package can provide
<james_w> these scripts are run by dpkg as the package is installed or removed
<james_w> so, let's look at the one that is failing
<dholbach> a lot of stuff is done during that step
<dholbach> like updating the docs database, updating icon caches etc.
<dholbach> in most cases you don't need them, unless you want anything special to happen during the installation or removal
<dholbach> if you do want that to happen, you need to be extremely careful
<james_w> yes
<dholbach> everything else will botch the installation of your users
<dholbach> like this case
<dholbach> (all the regular steps are added automatically :))
<james_w> open the file debian/xtux-client.postrm
<dholbach> the real beef of the file is:
<dholbach>    rmdir /etc/ggz/clients /etc/ggz >/dev/null 2>&1
<james_w> "postrm" means "post rm", or "post removal"
<james_w> so we know it is the script that we want
<dholbach> everything else is stuff you need in there to get the "regular actions" taking after the removal of packages
<dholbach> the call I mentioned above is problematic for a few reasons
<dholbach> 1) it suppresses any output which makes it harder for us to figure what the problem is ( >/dev/null 2>&1)
<dholbach> 2) it does not check if those directories are available
<dholbach> 3) rmdir will fail if those directories are not empty
<dholbach> james_w: anything I forgot?
<james_w> it should perhaps only does it's work on purge as well?
<dholbach> ah, good point
<dholbach> (the difference between    apt-get remove <pkg>   and    apt-get remove --purge <pkg>   (or dpkg -P))
<dholbach> james_w: what do we do to fix it?
<james_w> so, to fix 1)
<james_w> we need to to change the redirection
<james_w> instead of rmdir /etc/ggz/clients /etc/ggz >/dev/null 2>&1
<james_w> do rmdir /etc/ggz/clients /etc/ggz 2>&1 >/dev/null
<james_w> or just rmdir /etc/ggz/clients /etc/ggz >/dev/null
<james_w> to fix 2)
<james_w> we need to guard this by a check for the existence of the directory
<james_w> and 3) change the way we run rmdir
<james_w> so something like:
<james_w> for dir in /etc/ggz/clients /etc/ggz; do
<james_w>     if [ -d $dir ]; then
<james_w>       rmdir --ignore-fail-on-non-empty $dir;
<james_w>    fi;
<james_w> done
<james_w> the "[ -d $dir]" checks that the directory exists before it is removed
<dholbach> (that's the test(1) command)
<james_w> the --ignore-fail-on-non-empty means that the command won't error if the directories are not empty
<james_w> so, please go ahead and change the line in the original file to those few lines
<dholbach> that looks good to me, so we just replace the original rmdir call and we're done?
<james_w> for that file I think?
<dholbach> yep, looks good
<dholbach> so apart from test building the package and more importantly:
<dholbach>  _____ _____ ____ _____ ___ _   _  ____ _
<dholbach> |_   _| ____/ ___|_   _|_ _| \ | |/ ___| |
<dholbach>   | | |  _| \___ \ | |  | ||  \| | |  _| |
<dholbach>   | | | |___ ___) || |  | || |\  | |_| |_|
<dholbach>   |_| |_____|____/ |_| |___|_| \_|\____(_)
<dholbach>                                           
<james_w> ok
<dholbach> we need to document our changes properly so people know what we did and why :)
<james_w> so, next step is to edit the changelog
<james_w> yes!
<james_w> want to take this bit?
<dholbach> sure
<dholbach> I use the    dch -i   command from the devscripts package
<dholbach> this makes use of the DEBEMAIL variables we set before
<dholbach> and will add a template changelog entry for us and increment the version number
<dholbach> after some editing the first line for me now says
<dholbach> xtux (0.2.030306-11ubuntu1) lucid; urgency=low
<dholbach> let's go through it one by one
<dholbach> first up is the name of the source package
<dholbach> xtux-client (the binary ".deb" package) belongs to the xtux source package
<dholbach> one source package can build multiple binary packages
<dholbach> this is used to split things up for various reasons
<dholbach> this example will show you a package that makes use of the idea extensively: apt-cache showsrc mono
<dholbach> next up is the version number, which in our case now is: 0.2.030306-11ubuntu1
<dholbach> it means that the software authors released 0.2.030306 at some stage which has gone through 11 revisions in Debian
<dholbach> and we're just about to add the first change to it in Ubuntu
<dholbach> next comes the distro release we want to upload it to later on
<dholbach> this should always default to the current development release which since some days is lucid
<dholbach> if you want to get something included in an older release, you might want to have a look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates
<dholbach> we can ignore "urgency=low" - that's a Debian'ism that Launchpad does not make use of as far as I know
<dholbach>  -- Daniel Holbach <daniel.holbach@ubuntu.com>  Thu, 05 Nov 2009 17:30:38 +0100
<dholbach> is the last line which isn't particularly interesting
<dholbach> :-)
<dholbach> so, let's document what we did
<dholbach> james_w might have a better wording than I do, but I'd put something like this in there
<dholbach>   * xtux-client.postrm: don't fail to remove directories which don't exist
<dholbach>     or are not empty (LP: #454115)
<dholbach> this does 3 things:
<dholbach> it mentions which files we changed
<dholbach> it mentions how we changed them
<dholbach> and it references the bug report in Launchpad we attempt to fix
<dholbach> (and it also closes the bug automatically when the package is uploaded)
<dholbach> this is important for a few reasons
<dholbach> we all work on Ubuntu packages togethere
<dholbach> there is no strict "owner" of a package
<dholbach> so you don't want others to have to second-guess what you actually changed
<dholbach> AND
<dholbach> YOU don't want to second-guess half a year later :-)
<dholbach> once you've done that, please save the file
<dholbach> james_w: anything I forgot before we crack on?
<james_w> don't think so
<dholbach> I stand correct: maco points out that urgency DOES make a difference in Ubuntu too: https://help.launchpad.net/Packaging/BuildScores
<dholbach> please use it wisely :)
<dholbach> alright, we should be done now
<dholbach> please run
<dholbach>    debuild -S
<dholbach> this will rebuild the source package for us
<dholbach> (if you ran into an error saying something about Ubuntu maintainer, please run update-maintainer from ubuntu-dev-tools and debuild -S again)
<dholbach> (it also uses quilt, so if you get an error about that, please install quilt too)
<dholbach> once it completed I get the following files (below the xtux-0.2.0.030306 directory):
<dholbach> xtux_0.2.030306-11.diff.gz         xtux_0.2.030306-11ubuntu1_source.build
<dholbach> xtux_0.2.030306-11.dsc             xtux_0.2.030306-11ubuntu1_source.changes
<dholbach> xtux_0.2.030306-11ubuntu1.diff.gz  xtux_0.2.030306.orig.tar.gz
<dholbach> xtux_0.2.030306-11ubuntu1.dsc
<dholbach> xtux_0.2.030306.orig.tar.gz contains the code that was actually released by the xtux authors
<dholbach> xtux_0.2.030306-11.dsc and xtux_0.2.030306-11.diff.gz basically make up the packaging by the Debian maintainer (of the -11 version)
<dholbach> xtux_0.2.030306-11ubuntu1.diff.gz and xtux_0.2.030306-11ubuntu1.dsc is -11 plus our good work
<dholbach> the .diff.gz files contain the compressed set of changes we need to apply to make the package build the "Debian/Ubuntu way"
<dholbach> the .dsc is metadata like md5sums
<dholbach> there's a nifty tool called debdiff, which we'll use here to get us the patch for the changes we just did
<dholbach> please run:
<dholbach>   debdiff xtux_0.2.030306-11.dsc xtux_0.2.030306-11ubuntu1.dsc
<dholbach> the output should be a bit like this one:
<dholbach> http://paste.ubuntu.com/310719/
<dholbach> if you got this far: you just created your first patch
<dholbach> CONGRATULATIONS! :))))
<dholbach> james_w: want to take us from here?
<james_w> what's next?
<dholbach> we could test-build it
<dholbach> or try to squeeze in another bug :)
<james_w> of course!
<james_w> pbuilder build xtux_0.2.030306-11ubuntu1.dsc
<james_w> that will build your new package inside pbuilder
<dholbach> you might want to add a    sudo     in front :)
<dholbach> ok, let's hear some more questions
<dholbach> for those of you who want more bugs and more bug fixing action, you could try having a look at these bugs:
<dholbach> http://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/fet/+bug/368017
<dholbach> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ibus/+bug/429986
<dholbach> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ibus/+bug/429988
<dholbach> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/usermode/+bug/461365
<dholbach> and check out https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/TODO which lists a lot of good stuff to get started with
<dholbach> do we have more questions?
<dholbach> did pbuilder succeed for anybody already? :)
<dholbach> <jsgruber> QUESTION: Is it reasonable to use your ppa rather than using pbuilder to test build a package?
<dholbach> jsgruber: good one
<dholbach> so jsgruber is referring to PPAs (personal package archives), a service by Launchpad to build your package for you: https://help.launchpad.net/PPA has more details about that
<dholbach> I usually prefer to build them locally - it's mostly quicker because you don't have a queue :)
<dholbach> I just use PPAs to distribute packages for testing
<dholbach> <openweek7> QUESTION: What if the bug fix you create fixes the bug you intended to fix, but creates other bugs in the source? How would you test for this?
<dholbach> openweek7: in our case, I'd test-install the package and see if I can remove it safely again
<dholbach> it's really important that you install the packages you just built and play around with them to make sure the fix indeed does what you promised
<dholbach> <Jesi-Idle> Question: what are the differences from building the "Debian/Ubuntu way" or the "Fedora" or "Suse" way since you mentioned it, just little things or is there a significant difference?
<dholbach> I won't go into much speculation about how it works for Fedora or SuSE because I don't really know
<dholbach> I know that in the .rpm world a .spec file is involved which is a condensed ./debian directory
<dholbach> what I can say is that the debian/ubuntu way of building software basically means that you wrap a well-defined build system around that that comes from the upstream software
<dholbach> I know that's a bit "meta" :)
<dholbach> a lot of C programs usually take you a  ./configure && make && sudo make install  route
<dholbach> python projects might require a   python ./setup.py build <something>
<dholbach> and there's lots of other software that does it in different ways
<dholbach> we have clever tools for all the "regular" cases
<dholbach> so you merely run      fakeroot debian/rules clean
<dholbach> or fakeroot debian/rules binary
<dholbach> or whatever
<dholbach> basically a build system with build targets around the one you're required to follow by that software
<dholbach> <ia> QUESTION: is it reasonable updating system (using for testing devel releases and ubuntu devel purposes) to lucid (before alpha1 release) today? or should better to wait for alpha1?
<dholbach> I'd encourage you to read https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/UsingDevelopmentReleases
<dholbach> because it explains how to set up lucid in a chroot or a vm or a separate partition or something
<dholbach> and you don't have to deal with the daily pain :-)
<dholbach> alrightie
<dholbach> please bookmark:
<dholbach> Â¡Â¡Â¡ https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/GettingStarted !!!
<dholbach> see you in #ubuntu-motu
<dholbach> and make james_w and me proud!
<dholbach> thanks a lot james_w
<dholbach> and thanks a lot everybody for attending the session!
* akgraner changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to Ubuntu Open Week! https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek (changes made, please check regularly) || Session:  Basics of and Behavior in Ubuntu IRC channels - KurtvonFinck and JussiSchultink    || All questions go in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<dholbach> 1 minute to go until mneptok and jussi talk about the IRC world!
<mneptok> ladies and gentlemen, the equally smart and sexy dholbach. let's give him a nice round of applause.
<dholbach> mneptok: don't forget the smart, sexy, clever and rocking-DJing james_w
<mneptok> oooo! ja,es_w is a DJ, too? now i understand your co-presentation. ;)
<mneptok> OK, let's get started on this next session.
<james_w> thanks dholbach
<james_w> you rock as always
<mneptok> Hello all, and welcome to the self-referential Open Week IRC session on using IRC. :)
 * mneptok is Kurt von Finck
<mneptok> I'm a member of the Ubuntu IRC Ops Team, and co-presenting with me is juss01 (Jussi Schultink). Jussi is also a member of the ops team.
<mneptok> We would ask that you save your questions until the end of the session, and ask them in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<mneptok> Our session is divided into two parts. First, Jussi will discuss what IRC is and how it works. If you're new to IRC, and want to know more about connecting servers, / commands, registering a nick on Freenode, and similar issues, Jussi has your answers.
<mneptok> Second, I will discuss how Ubuntu channels operate, and what netiquette we expect from users of official Ubuntu channels. If you want to know where to go for help, how to ensure you get help in a timely and efficient manner, and how to stay off ban lists, my section will be of interest to you.
<mneptok> So, without further ado, ladies and gentlemen ... Jussi Schultink! Take it away, Jussi!
<jussio1> ahh thats better
<jussio1> Hi Everyone! :)
<jussio1> As Kurt Just mentioned, I'm Jussi Schultink. I am a member of the Ubuntu ops team and also part of the Ubuntu IRC council.
<jussio1> First I'm going to go through how to connect to IRC properly, register your username, and generally getting set up.
<jussio1> Then I am going to show you some useful commands and how to use the bot efficiently.
<jussio1> After that, Ill hand off to Kurt and he will tell you some more about how to behave on IRC.
<jussio1> Ok, So lets start with connecting to IRC. Youve all done this already, although there might be some who are reading the logs who are still interested. You can connect with a number of different clients, depending on your situation. The default client installed in ubuntu is Pidgin and the default client in Kubuntu is Quassel.
<jussio1> You can also connect with freenodes webchat if you don't want to or cannot install one on your system. You can find it here: http://webchat.freenode.net/
<jussio1> Ok, Ive been corrected, the latest ubuntu has empathy :)
<jussio1> (yeah, Im a kubuntu user  :D )
<mneptok> we love you anyway
<jussio1> Once you are connected, you need to find a free nick. If you connect and you are using someone elses nick who has nick protection on, your name will be changed to Guest##### after 30 seconds. To see who owns a nick you can use the following command: /msg nickserv info <nick>
<jussio1> If the message from that command comes back with "<nick> is not registered" then you may then switch to the nick with /nick <nick> and register it with /msg nickserv register <password> <email@address>
<jussio1> Please remember to do these commands in your server window, so if you mess it up you don't post to the whole channel  :)
<jussio1> So, about / commands. We have already been through a few for registering your nick. Some other common ones include:  /me - which will print your name first, as if you have done an action - like this:
 * jussio1 waves to everyone!
<jussio1> Also, / commands are used if you want a way to private message someone with out actually opening a query with them, as we have just done with nickserv. ( /msg nickserv <message> )
<jussio1> Now, Freenode has several services bots available, Im not going to go through all of them, but the 2 most important ones. They are Nickserv and Chanserv. As you might have guessed, Nickserv handles anything to do with nicknames and Chanserv anything to do with channels.
<jussio1> You can get help with the commands from these two bots by messaging them with the help command: "/msg nickserv help" or "/msg chanserv help". Also, you can ask the services bots for help with specific commands by adding the command on the end, ie. /msg nickserv help <command>
<jussio1> Now Im going to talk a little about ubuntu's info bot, ubottu. You can find her (yes, thats right, its a she :D ) info pages at: http://ubottu.com/ and a wiki page about ubuntu bots generally at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBots
<jussio1> Ubottu also has several clones, (ubot*) these do very similar things so I wont really talk about them here.
<ubottu> Error: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :)
<jussio1> hehe
<jussio1> Our Ubottu is a (somewhat) intelligent IRC bot. (even though she claims she isnt). The idea behind ubottu is that it remembers answers to commonly asked questions and that users of #ubuntu/#kubuntu (and other channels she is in) can easily recall them when needed. You can recall a factoid by doing the following:
<jussio1> !bot
<ubottu> Hi! I'm #ubuntu-classroom's favorite infobot, you can search my brain yourself at http://ubottu.com/factoids.cgi - Usage info: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBots
<jussio1> You can switch out !bot for any factoid you like, although we do ask you know which one you want, as to not create undue noise - see:
<jussio1> !botabuse
<ubottu> Please investigate with me only with "/msg ubottu Bot" or in #ubuntu-bots.  Search for factoids with "/msg ubottu !search factoid".
<jussio1> If you notice a factoid is incorrect, or feel a factoid needs to be added, then you can suggest a new one to the ops with "!factoid is <reply> fact".
<jussio1> Ubottu also does a few other tasks, if she notices a bug number in the form "bug 2" then she will tell the channel what the bug is and give a URL for it. She also will tell information about packages in the following way:
<ubottu> Error: Launchpad bug 2 could not be found
<ubottu> I'll remember that, jussio1
<jussio1> !info kubuntu-desktop
<ubottu> kubuntu-desktop (source: kubuntu-meta): Kubuntu desktop system. In component main, is optional. Version 1.154 (karmic), package size 23 kB, installed size 52 kB
<jussio1> If you dont know the whole package name, she is able to search the repository for you with the "!find" command.
<jussio1> !find mnemos
<ubottu> Found: mnemosyne, mnemosyne-blog
<jussio1> Both of the above commands can have a certain version of ubuntu attached if need be, for example if you want to see the version of kubuntu-desktop in jaunty, then:
<jussio1> !info kubuntu-desktop jaunty
<ubottu> kubuntu-desktop (source: kubuntu-meta): Kubuntu desktop system. In component main, is optional. Version 1.122 (jaunty), package size 21 kB, installed size 48 kB
<jussio1> Ok, Now Im going to hand off to Kurt and he will take you through some IRC etiquette.
<mneptok> Alright! Thanks Jussi!
<mneptok> Now, onto how to use Ubuntu IRC channels specifically.
<mneptok> Official Ubuntu IRC channels are all hosted on Freenode. If you are connecting to another network you may well find channels dedicated to Ubuntu discussions, but these are not official, and may well have guidelines different from those I will discuss. Be sure you know where you are. :)
<mneptok> Behavior on IRC, like any medium in the Ubuntu world, is subject to the Ubuntu Code Of Conduct, often abbreviated to CoC. All IRC users are expected to adhere to the principles set forth in this document. Here's a link to the CoC:
<mneptok> http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct/
<mneptok> the bot knows about this, as well
<mneptok> !coc
<ubottu> The Ubuntu Code of Conduct to which we ask all Ubuntu users to adhere can be found at http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct/
<mneptok> In addition to the CoC, IRC users are also asked to familiarize themselves with the official Ubuntu IRC Guidelines, and follow those, as well. Here are those guidelines:
<mneptok> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcGuidelines
<mneptok> !guidelines
<ubottu> The guidelines for using the Ubuntu channels can be found here: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcGuidelines
 * mneptok pats ubottu 
<mneptok> Let's cover some of those guidelines with some more depth, and give some of the reasoning behind them.
<mneptok> Many of the guidelines involve input to the channel. Such things are a big issue, as the Ubuntu channels can be very busy.
<mneptok> Pasting, flooding, /away messages, multiple inputlines for single questions, bots ... all of these are frowned upon.
<mneptok> Anything that adds input to the channel, but is generally superfluous, is a bad idea. If every user spent no time thinking about this issue, the channels would quickly spiral into a chaotic mess that no one could read.
<mneptok> Take for example /away messages. Imagine a channel the size of #ubuntu (>1K users) where every user sent text to the channel every time they looked away from the chat window or went for a snack. It would be bedlam. Hence, public /away notification (including nick changes) are not allowed.
<mneptok> then there's
<mneptok> the issue
<mneptok> of people
<mneptok> using multiple
<mneptok> inputlines
<mneptok> to express
<mneptok> a single
<mneptok> thought
<mneptok> Well, that was annoying when I did it. Now imagine 1,000 people doing it. Once you have regained some semblance of snaity, you'll know why the !enter factoid exists.
<mneptok> !enter
<ubottu> Please try to keep your questions/responses on one line - don't use the "Enter" key as punctuation!
<mneptok> Sometimes it becomes necessary to share multiple lines of information with people on the channel. For example, some kind of output from your machine that is necessary to help people help you.
<mneptok> For these occasions, we ask users to use a "pastebin" service, that allows you to paste output to a web page that anyone can read. The Ubuntu pastebin is at:
<mneptok> http://pastebin.ubuntu.com
<mneptok> !pastebin
<ubottu> pastebin is a service to post multiple-lined texts so you don't flood the channel. Ubuntu pastebin is at  http://paste.ubuntu.com | To post !screenshots use http://tinyurl.com/imagebin | !pastebinit to paste directly from  command line | Make sure you give us the URL for your paste - see also the channel topic
<mneptok> Instead of pasting to the channel, use pastebin.
<mneptok> Another type of annoying input is IM speak. Ending your sentences with "lol" or "roflmao" or using text shortcuts like "u" (you) or "2" (too/to) isn't necessary in a medium where there is no per-character cost. Be aware, the person that can best help you with your problem may not be a native English speaker, and your IM speak will be off-putting.
<mneptok> IRC is not SMS, or IM.
<mneptok> About bots. One word is enough here. "Don't." The guidelines are quite clear on this point. Do not bring your own bots into Ubuntu IRC channels.
<mneptok> A final piece of channel etiquette advice: don't send other users private messages (/msg or /query) without asking first. Many people find it disruptive, and you're more likely to get help if you ask a group than a specific individual.
<mneptok> Now on to Ubuntu channels, and their use.
<mneptok> If you are using Ubuntu, and you need help, #ubuntu is the correct channel. #ubuntu is a support channel, and should only be used for support issues.
<mneptok> If you are using Kubuntu, use the #kubuntu channel. The same rules about "support only" apply.
<mneptok> If you feel like socializing rather than looking to receive or give help, #ubuntu-offtopic exists for just that reason.
<mneptok> The channels above are English language channels. We ask that you only use English on those channels. But that does not mean that Ubuntu IRC is for Anglophones only.
<mneptok> There are many local channels that cater to users in native languages other than English. try /join'ing #ubuntu-$ICANN_TLD to see if such a channel exists. For example, Romanian speakers congregate in #ubuntu-ro and Mandarin speakers in #ubuntu-cn.
<mneptok> A fairly complete list of Ubuntu channels is located on the Ubuntu wiki
<mneptok> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/InternetRelayChat
<mneptok> Often the purpose and policies of Ubuntu channels are stated in the channel /topic, which your IRC client should show to you when you enter that channel. Always read channel /topics so you don't make easily avoidable errors.
<mneptok> So, long story longer ... be sure you are using the correct channel for the conversation you are having. And be sure you're using the correct language.
<mneptok> Now, on to how to ask questions in order to get help. There is a great link on the IRC Guidelines page I would encourage you to read.
<mneptok> http://www.sabi.co.uk/Notes/linuxHelpAsk.html
<mneptok> Some of the points there are worth repeating.
<mneptok> Don't ask to ask a question. Or tell people you have a question. Just ask.
<mneptok> !ask
<ubottu> Please don't ask to ask a question, simply ask the question (all on ONE line and in the channel, so that others can read and follow it easily). If anyone knows the answer they will most likely reply. :-)
<mneptok> Don't repeat yourself more than once every 5 minutes. Be patient. If someone knows the answer, they will answer. Or not. Pestering an entire channel is a good way to ensure you're ignored.
<mneptok> !repeat
<ubottu> Don't feel ignored and repeat your question quickly; if nobody knows your answer, nobody will answer you. You can search https://help.ubuntu.com or http://ubuntuforums.org while you wait.
<mneptok> Remember, users helping other users are volunteers. You don;t have an inalienable right to help. That being said, people should always be patient, helpful, and friendly when helping others, per the CoC.
<mneptok> !patience
 * mneptok jiggles ubottu 
<mneptok> Finally, what happens when it all goes wrong? What if another user is in violation of the CoC or the IRC Guidelines? What if you have been, and have been kicked or banned because of it?
<mneptok> The Ubuntu IRC Ops Team has a channel designed for just such ocassions, #ubuntu-ops. Use this channel to report bad or suspiscious behavior, or to speak to an op about results of your behavior.
<mneptok> The #ubuntu-ops channel has a no-idle policy. It's clearly stated in the channel /topic, and we all read channel /topics when we /join, right? ;)
<mneptok> you can also call the ops to a certain channel like so:
<mneptok> !ops
<ubottu> Help! Channel emergency! (ONLY use this trigger in emergencies) -  elky,  imbrandon, DBO, gnomefreak, Hobbsee, rob, Madpilot, CarlK, crimsun, ajmitch, tritium, Nalioth, thoreauputic, apokryphos, tonyyarusso,  PriceChild, Amaranth, jrib, jenda, nixternal, Myrtti, mneptok, Pici, Jack_Sparrow, nickrud, jpds, bazhang, jussi01, Flannel or ikonia!
<mneptok> consider that the IRC equivalent of the emergency flare
<mneptok> And with that, we'll move on to the question and answer section of this session. Please ask your questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat and , Amber, Jussi and I will paste them here.
<mneptok> there was a question about Empathy's support of basic IRC / commands
<mneptok> be aware, Pidgin and Empathy are bare-bones IRC clients.
<mneptok> if you are going to use IRC for any length of time, most experienced users would encourage you to use a more feature-rich client.
<mneptok> XChat, Smuxi, Konversation, and Quassel are all good choices.
<mneptok> a lot of old-time IRC users use command-line clients. my preferences is irssi.
<mneptok> you'll probably want to become fairly familiar with IRC before trying a CLI client
<mneptok> next q?
<jussio1> akgraner: ?
<akgraner> <IdleOne> QUESTION: is the IRC council and IRC ops team considering adding irc helpers ( half-ops ) to help out in #ubuntu?
<jussio1> Ok, Ill answer this one.
<jussio1> The IRC council considers all suggestions sent to it. Currently we are in the process of elections, and we will consider this after the new council is in place.
<jussio1> you can see more about the IRC council here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcTeam/IrcCouncil
<jussio1> next?
<akgraner> <Amaranth> QUESTION: Why are the ops so awesome? :)
<mneptok> we're sure to drink our Ovaltine
<mneptok> next?
<akgraner> <Lithium_Rain> QUESTION: How many ops are there? Are they the same for all ubuntu channels?
<mneptok> i'll take this.
<mneptok> currently there are ~20-30 active members of the ops team
<mneptok> the ops team is responsible for official namespace Ubuntu channels, with the exception of LoCo channels.
<mneptok> as i pointed out during my part of the talk, a list of official Ubuntu channels is at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/InternetRelayChat
<mneptok> and yes, the ops team has consistent across Ubuntu IRC namespace
<mneptok> next?
<akgraner> <akgraner> QUESTION: about bots in Ubuntu channels.. do you mean just the ones that begin with #ubuntu or does that mean LoCo team channels as well?
<jussio1> Ill get this
 * mneptok will just point out that #kubuntu does not start with #ubuntu ;)
<jussio1> Ubuntu channels have some official bots, as on the page I mentioned before. however, some loco channels have their own localised versions of ubottu. The key here is whether the channel owner permits the bot. be sure to ask before bringing any bot into a channel.
<jussio1> next?
<akgraner> <AlanBell> QUESTION: as mentioned at the start, this IRC based intro to IRC is self-referential. How can IRC better promote itself to new users outside of IRC?
<mneptok> i'll take this.
<mneptok> i think a good amount of promotion is done via the Ubuntu wiki and other resources.
<mneptok> read through the documents there, and if you find weak spots or omissions, correct them
<jussio1> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/InternetRelayChat
<mneptok> that being said, i think that if someone *wants* to use IRC, the resources for learning how to do so are already available.
<mneptok> so, then the question is "how do we make people want to use IRC?"
<mneptok> there are a few things you can do.
<mneptok> blog/dent/tweet about it. "I use IRC to get help with Ubuntu, and it's a LOT faster than the forums!"
<mneptok> talk about IRC at LoCo meetings, release parties, conferences, etc.
<mneptok> when that fails, get a big board with a nail through it and start ringing doorbells in your neighborhood. >;)
<mneptok> next?
<akgraner> <sebsebseb> QUESTION:  So in reply to questions  if ubottu is going to be used it should only really be used once per question?  With some possible exceptions.
<jussio1> Ill get this :)
<jussio1> The real answer to this is use common sense. This will differ according to the question, but please dont spam some poor soul with 15 bot replies :D
<jussio1> next?
<akgraner> <amichair> QUESTION: how do u teach ubottu new tricks?
<mneptok> i'll answer this
<mneptok> first, like a trained seal, be sure to have botsnacks at hand.
<jussio1> :)
<mneptok> !botsnack
<jussio1> She is a little sick atm :/
<mneptok> to add a factoid, the syntax is !new_factoid is desired_reply
<mneptok> like so:
<mneptok> !mneptok is a hoopty frood who knows where his towel is.
<mneptok> next?
<akgraner> <simula67> QUESTION:Can ubuntu bots be brought to any channel?if yes, How?
<jussio1> OK, Ive got this
<jussio1> Ubuntu bots have limited resources, however, they are available for official ubuntu channels. if you would like ubottu's functionality in your private channel, you can set up and run your own.
<jussio1> !botclone
<ubottu> Ubottu uses supybot, which is available in the main !repositories, with additional plugins that are available at http://ubottu.com/clone.html
<jussio1> She is open source, so you are welcome to modify her and create things :)
<jussio1> next?
<akgraner> <akgraner> QUESTION: Since emotion and body language can not be seen on IRC and it is not SMS or IM how do you suggests people showing tone emotion etc?
<mneptok> OK, i'll take this
<mneptok> not only are emotion and body language impossible, so is tone.
<mneptok> so one of the few things that translates well from IM to IRC is emoticons.
<mneptok> ;) :) >;) :O :( :/ O:)
<mneptok> use these to denote your tone and intent.
<mneptok> for example, i have met akgraner and her husband in person. akgraner's husband could kill me with 9 fingers tied behind his back.
<mneptok> if i say:
<mneptok> akgraner: someday i will steal you from Pete
<mneptok> Amber will, quite rightly, think about putting me on /ignore
<mneptok> but if i say:
<mneptok> akgraner: someday i will steal you from Pete ;)
<mneptok> it's fairly clear i'm kidding, and that i know Pete could destroy me using only his mind.
<akgraner> and with that time is up..
<akgraner> :-)
<mneptok> now, be aware that humor on IRC is always good, like being of good humor anywhere in life.
<akgraner> thank you mneptok and jussi01
<akgraner> :-P
<jussio1> :)
<mneptok> but support channels like #ubuntu do not benefit from jokes, as many people are having problems and are frustrated to begin with.
* akgraner changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to Ubuntu Open Week! https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek (changes made, please check regularly) || Session:   KVM and Virt-Manager - DustinKirkland    || All questions go in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<kirkland> akgraner: am I up?
<mneptok> thanks everyone
<akgraner> up next is Dustin Kirkland and KVM and Virt-Manager
 * kirkland high fives jussi01 and mneptok 
<akgraner> yeppers..take it away kirkland
<kirkland> alright, so I'm talking about Virtualization in Ubuntu
<kirkland> specifically, using something called KVM
<kirkland> i'm going to throw a bunch of examples at you, that I hope you'll try at home
<kirkland> you'll need a couple of things to get started
<kirkland> first, your CPU must support something called Virtualization Technology
<kirkland> you can easily check by running:
<kirkland> egrep "flags.*:.*(svm|vmx)" /proc/cpuinfo && echo "Yay" || echo "Boo"
<kirkland> if that comes back and says "Yay", you're good go
<kirkland> otherwise, please listen along, save the logs, and try again when you find a computer that has VT
<kirkland> or, better yet, next time you buy one, make sure it has VT before checking out ;-)
<kirkland> next, you'll also need to have an Ubuntu ISO somewhere on your system
<kirkland> as we're going to run an Ubuntu virtual machine, inside of Ubuntu
<kirkland> you can download one from the nearest mirror at http://www.ubuntu.com/getubuntu/download
<kirkland> or, hopefully you already have one lying around
<kirkland> you can do this on either an amd64 kernel, or an i386 kernel
<kirkland> for Virtualization, I really prefer 64bit
<kirkland> because a 64bit system can host either 32bit or 64bit VMs
<kirkland> a 32bit system can only host 32bit VMs
<kirkland> so if you have a 32bit system, make sure you download a 32bit iso
<kirkland> if you have a 64bit system, you can download either
<kirkland> also, you might want to start downloading http://people.canonical.com/~kirkland/hardy.img.bz2
<kirkland> that's a 64bit image
<kirkland> sorry, i forgot that some people still use 32bit when i created that
<kirkland> my bad ... so it's only worth downloading that if you're running 64 bit, I'm afraid.  my bad....
<kirkland> in any case, you're going to create your own VMs
<kirkland> now, I'm also assuming you're running Ubuntu 9.10
<kirkland> if you haven't already done so, install the utilities that we're going to use
<kirkland> sudo apt-get install qemu-kvm virt-manager
<kirkland> it'll pull a few dependencies if you don't already have them
<kirkland> i'd like to spend about 15 minutes looking at using KVM from the command line first
<kirkland> and then 15 minutes using the virt-manager GUI
<kirkland> and spend the rest of the time taking questions
<kirkland> cool....
<kirkland> so qemu-kvm is the utility we're going to use from the command line
<kirkland> qemu stands for "quick emulator"
<kirkland> and kvm stands for "kernel virtual machine"
<kirkland> the Linux kernel provides KVM as a virtualization layer ... a "hypervisor" built right into the kernel
<kirkland> other virtualization options available in Ubuntu are not built into the kernel
<kirkland> well, Xen kind of is ...
<kirkland> but Xen is a giant patch to the kernel
<kirkland> that's not entirely upstream yet
<kirkland> so it's not something that we can support very well
<kirkland> same goes for things like Virtual Box, etc.
<kirkland> these are good virt options too, but not what we're talking about today
<kirkland> or really what I work on, on a daily basis
<kirkland> okay, so first, i'm going to create a backing disk image
<kirkland> virtual machines have hard disks that fit entirely into a single file!
<kirkland> this is really cool because you can move this file around
<kirkland> to a different machine on the network
<kirkland> onto a usb key, or whatever
<kirkland> we're going to create a "sparse" file, which means that it small to start with
<kirkland> but will grow as your virtual machine grows
<kirkland> cd /tmp
<kirkland> or somewhere that you want to put your virtual machine
<kirkland> df -h .
<kirkland> make sure you have sufficient disk space
<kirkland> we're going to create a 6G disk image
<kirkland> which is plenty big enough for the Ubuntu Desktop
<kirkland> kvm-img create -f qcow2 foo.img 6G
<kirkland> Formatting 'foo.img', fmt=qcow2 size=6442450944 encryption=off cluster_size=0
<kirkland> that should happen very fast
<kirkland> as it didn't actually write 6G of data to your disk
<kirkland> now, assuming you have an ISO available, you can boot a virtual machine
<kirkland> i'm going to give my VM 512MB of memory
<kirkland> which is fine, because my host has 4G of memory
<kirkland> but bear this in mind when you do this
<kirkland> i'm going to point the first hard disk at foo.img
<kirkland> and the cdrom at the iso file i'm going to use to install this
<kirkland> /usr/bin/kvm -m 512 -hda foo.img -cdrom ../iso/karmic-desktop-amd64.iso
<kirkland> if you get an error about not being able to enable KVM
<kirkland> acceleration
<kirkland> you might need to debug one or two things
<kirkland> first, you might have to enable KVM in your BIOS
<kirkland> unfortunately, a lot of new computers support KVM
<kirkland> but don't enable it by default in BIOS
<kirkland> stupid
<kirkland> also, you might need to check the permissions on /dev/kvm
<kirkland> make sure that you have write access to it
<kirkland> you might need to add your user to the kvm group
<kirkland> with
<kirkland> sudo usermod -a -G kvm $USER
<kirkland> you'll need to log out, and back in
<kirkland> or, you can just use sudo on the kvm command itself
<kirkland> i don't recommend that in general
<kirkland> but for this demo, it's okay
<kirkland> so in the mean time, my VM has now booted!
<kirkland> i'm looking at the Karmic livecd desktop in my virtual machine
<kirkland> has anyone else booted their iso at this point?  answer -> #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<kirkland> now, from here, I've answered the 6 pages of questions
<kirkland> and i'm installing Ubuntu desktop into a virtual machine!
<kirkland> we'll pause for questions now, while our VMs install
<akgraner> <Mindfulgeek> QUESTION: When you say 64bit system... does it have to be running a 64bit OS as well to run either 32 or 64 bit VM?
<kirkland> Mindfulgeek: yes
<kirkland> Mindfulgeek: i'm talking about the OS
<kirkland> you can tell what you're running with:
<kirkland> uname -a
<kirkland> if that says x86_64, then your OS is 64bit
<kirkland> if it says i686, your OS is 32bit
<kirkland> akgraner: anything else?
<akgraner> <cemc> QUESTION: I know it's not secure, but: can I remote connect to --vnc booted guest? by default it listens on localhost:590x
<kirkland> cemc: that question is a little bit complicated....  it depends on the network configure your host has offered to the guest
<kirkland> using the commands i did above, the networking setup is very basic
<kirkland> the guest will be able to get out to the internet
<kirkland> but no one else (not even your host) will be able to initiate network connections to the guest
<kirkland> to do what you're asking, cemc, you need "bridged" networking
<kirkland> which is a little bit invovled to configure on the command line
<kirkland> but really easy using virt-manager
<kirkland> which we're getting to :-)
<kirkland> now, if you've managed to download that hardy.img.gz that I pointed you to earlier
<kirkland> i hope you've unzipped it
<kirkland> as this is a virtual machine ready to go!
<kirkland> running the hardy server
<kirkland> my laptop is a dual core
<kirkland> so I should very easily be able to run 2 vm's at once
<kirkland> actually, i can run more than that
<kirkland> but 2 should be very doable
<kirkland> so I'm also going to launch that hardy server vm
<kirkland> with:
<kirkland> /usr/bin/kvm -hda hardy.img
<kirkland> this should boot up very quickly
<kirkland> and now, i have a second VM up and running
<kirkland> I do essentially all of my Ubuntu testing and development in "throw away" vm's like this
<kirkland> I use this like scratch pads :-)
<kirkland> to doodle ideas in code
<kirkland> test them out
<kirkland> all without polluting my oh-so-clean primary desktop environment :-)
<kirkland> it really helps keep my fringe testing away from my pristine desktop
<kirkland> and this is something *you* can help us with
<kirkland> there's a lot of people complaining about the quality of Karmic right now
<kirkland> and I hope you know that we're focusing on quality of Lucid, as an LTS
<kirkland> but we can really use a lot of help from YOU testing this stuff earlier in the development cycle
<kirkland> and this is something that you can do in Virtual Machines
<kirkland> without b0rking your lovely desktop :-)
<kirkland> so there are a lot more fancy things that you can do with kvm from the command line
<kirkland> if you look at the manpage
<kirkland> man kvm
<kirkland> you should see dozens of other options
<kirkland> lots of them are very useful
<kirkland> i use an "alias" in my .bashrc that adds a bunch of them for me
<kirkland> /usr/bin/kvm -m 512 -smp 2 -usb -usbdevice tablet -net nic,model=virtio -net tap,script=$HOME/bin/bridge.sh -soundhw es1370 $ARGS
<kirkland> something like that, I find useful
<kirkland> i like to give my guests 512M of memory
<kirkland> and 2 cpus
<kirkland> i use usbdevice tablet which makes the mouse/cursor behave a little better when moving in and out of vm's
<kirkland> i also use "virtio" for networking and disk, which makes both of those about 10x faster
<kirkland> and i have a bridging script that puts my VMs on the same network as my PC
<kirkland> and i enable sound in my guests too
<kirkland> OKAY
<kirkland> so all of that is the command line KVM
<kirkland> before I switch over to GUI virt-manager ... let's take a few more questions....
<kirkland> akgraner: anything queued up?
<akgraner> yep
<akgraner> <Jeruvy> Question: is there specific BIOS's better suited to VT/KVM?
<kirkland> Jeruvy: hmm, not really...  i have both AMD and Intel CPUs, both of which support KVM very well
<kirkland> Jeruvy: i like AMD slightly better right now, because those CPUs support "nested" virtualization
<kirkland> Jeruvy: which means that I can run VMs that run VMs :-)
<kirkland> Jeruvy: but BIOS doesn't really matter
<kirkland> akgraner: next?
<akgraner> <Mindfulgeek> QUESTION: With the commands you gave, will the guest OS be able to access the usb ports, etc?
<kirkland> Mindfulgeek: not with the commands I gave, however, there is a -usb option
<kirkland> Mindfulgeek: take a look at the kvm manpage
<kirkland> Mindfulgeek: look for the -usb option
<kirkland> Mindfulgeek: basically, you'll pass -usb Address:To:Usb:Device
<kirkland> Mindfulgeek: according to the addressing shown by lsusb
<kirkland> Mindfulgeek: note that the user launching the kvm line will need read/write access to that usb device
<kirkland> Mindfulgeek: if you're looking for help online, search for "kvm usb passthrough"
<kirkland> akgraner: next?
<akgraner> <erUSUL> QUESTION: but testing on a VM limits a lot the coverage basically all kvm are equal (same hardware)...
<kirkland> erUSUL: perhaps...  KVM isn't suitable for really testing Ubuntu on different hardware
<kirkland> erUSUL: however, it's really valuable for testing non-hardware features
<kirkland> erUSUL: splash screens
<kirkland> erUSUL: artwork
<kirkland> erUSUL: user interface stuff
<kirkland> erUSUL: any python/perl/ruby whatever code that doesn't care about what kernel or hardware you're running
<kirkland> erUSUL: server stuff, like web applications
<kirkland> erUSUL: etc. etc. etc.
<kirkland> erUSUL: there's plenty of usefulness to testing in KVM
<kirkland> akgraner: okay, let's get back to virt-manager, and i'll take some more questions shortly
<kirkland> okay, so command line is fine and dandy, but it's not for everyone
<kirkland> assuming you've installed virt-manager, launch virt-manager with:
<kirkland> Applications -> System Tools -> Virtual Machine Manager
<kirkland> double click on localhost (System)
<kirkland> this will attach virt-manager to the libvirt daemon running on your local system
<kirkland> however, this is what's cool ....
<kirkland> let's say you're working on your little Dell netbook computer, which doesn't have VT
<kirkland> but you have a big beasty quad-core under your desk that *does* have VT
<kirkland> you can use virt-manager to remotely manage VMs over on big beasty
<kirkland> to do that, you'd use File -> Add Connection
<kirkland> and establish an SSH tunnel over to that other machine
<kirkland> however, for now, let's work locally
<kirkland> so once my connection to localhost (System) is Active, i can create a new virtual machine
<kirkland> right click on localhost (System) and select New
<kirkland> this should pop open a *really* straight forward wizard
<kirkland> perhaps more what you're looking for than command line, i don't know
<kirkland> give your vm a name
<kirkland> "foo"
<kirkland> and choose "local install media", ISO image or CDROM
<kirkland> since we already have an ISO
<kirkland> note that you could also pop in a CDROM into your computer's drive
<kirkland> also, note that in my examples, we're running Ubuntu on Ubuntu
<kirkland> you could also run Fedora, RHEL, CentOS, Debian, SuSE, or even Windows
<kirkland> click "Forward"
<kirkland> and browse to your ISO image that you downloaded earlier
<kirkland> you can select your OS Type and Version
<kirkland> these aren't mandatory, but they do enable some advanced features if you do
<kirkland> click forward
<kirkland> choose some amount of RAM and CPU to give to your VM
<kirkland> i'm giving 512M and 1 CPU
<kirkland> since my other cpu is busy
<kirkland> and now, create your disk image for the VM
<kirkland> it defaults to 8G
<kirkland> we did 6 earlier
<kirkland> either should work
<kirkland> depends really on what you're installing
<kirkland> you can also either allocate your entire disk now, or just allocate it on the fly
<kirkland> i usually just allocate it on the fly
<kirkland> that allows me to store more VMs on my system
<kirkland> however, i have to be mindful of how much disk space I have on my physical machine
<kirkland> it's not good to over commit ;-)
<kirkland> i click forward and i should get an opportunity to review my VM
<kirkland> and I click Finish to launch it
<kirkland> i see the boot loader screen
<kirkland> and choose to Try Ubuntu
<kirkland> about a minute later, I should be back in the Ubuntu desktop
<kirkland> now, there's a few advantages of doing this using virt-manager instead of by the command line
<kirkland> for one thing, it's much more useful if i want to use this vm again and again
<kirkland> as it will be in my list in virt-manager until such time as I delete it
<kirkland> it's also just a point and click away from launching
<kirkland> rather than typing in the whole command line
<kirkland> in the virtual machine window, you can also see the details of the vm
<kirkland> click the Details tab
<kirkland> you should see each of the items associated with this vm
<kirkland> some of these can be changed dynamically
<kirkland> others need to be added/removed when the VM is not running
<kirkland> you can play around with this
<kirkland> so there's a *lot* more that I could show
<kirkland> but I feel like I should save the rest of the time for questions, since there seems to be a bunch
<kirkland> I hope I've encouraged you to go play with virtualization in Ubuntu
<kirkland> KVM is really cool
<kirkland> and Virt-Manager uses KVM under the covers
<kirkland> akgraner: fire away :-)
<akgraner> <Jesi-Idle> Question: if you are running an OS that requires 256MB of RAM and run another in KVM that requires 256MB, will you need a total of 512MB, or does i
<kirkland> Jesi-Idle: yeah, pretty much right now
<kirkland> Jesi-Idle: there is some work upstream on something (badly) named KSM
<kirkland> ksm = kernel shared memory
<kirkland> which allows similar guests to use the same memory, where that memory is identical
<kirkland> think about a VM farm launching 10 identical VMs
<kirkland> a lot of the static kernel stuff will be similar among them
<kirkland> so they could share certain portions
<kirkland> Jesi-Idle: but in general, it's a good idea not to over commit
<kirkland> akgraner: next?
<akgraner> <cemc> QUESTION: do kvm guests have time issues like in vmware for example (clocks too fast, too slow etc) ?
<kirkland> cemc: occasionally; though I think KVM is better about this than most hypervisors
<kirkland> cemc: i actually use CPU frequency scaling on my hosts
<kirkland> cemc: which definitely screws up other hypervisors, having a CPU who's frequency is jumping around
<kirkland> cemc: it seems to work well for me
<kirkland> cemc: there is one particular type of AMD processor with VT and freq scaling that is broken
<kirkland> cemc: and I happen to have 4 of them, but there are work arounds
<kirkland> cemc: i can either: a) pin the cpu at a certian speed, or b) boot the guest with noapic on the kernel line
<kirkland> akgraner: next?
<akgraner> <Jesi-Idle> Question: if you are running an OS that requires 256MB of RAM and run another in KVM that requires 256MB, will you need a total of 512MB, or does it not work this way? in other words, how do requirements stack?
<akgraner> sorry
<kirkland> akgraner: next
<akgraner> <brettalton> kirkland: I have an older P4 640 which as some sort of 64-bit extension, but I've never tried installing a 64-bit OS with it. The same goes with KVM; how do I know if it's supported?? What can I do to test?
<kirkland> brettalton: cat /proc/cpuinfo
<kirkland> brettalton: that will tell you everything about it
<kirkland> brettalton: if it's older than 2 years, it almost certainly does not have VT
<kirkland> brettalton: look in the flags for "vmx" or "svm".  if you have either of those, you have VT.  if not, you don't.
<kirkland> akgraner: next?
<akgraner> <amichair> QUESTION: can u boot a vm from a physical disk? e.g. in a dual
<kirkland> amichair: you can
<kirkland> amichair: and performance can actually be really high
<kirkland> amichair: you can even give vm's their own partition or LVM volume
<kirkland> amichair: i don't like to do this, though, as there's not enough flexibility for me
<kirkland> i have 27 vm's on my laptop right nwo
<kirkland> in .img file format
<kirkland> but I don't have 27 disk, or 27 partitions ;-)
<kirkland> it's a matter of choice though
<kirkland> akgraner: next?
<akgraner> <Jesi-Idle> Question: so it dosent matter what your chipset architecture is if your testing Ubuntu in KVM because it doesnt apply to how KVM works?  just want to make sure I understand here
<kirkland> Jesi-Idle: hmm, well, it does sort of matter
<kirkland> Jesi-Idle: KVM (accelerated virtualization) only really works on i686 and amd64
<kirkland> Jesi-Idle: it sort of works on PPC and s390, but we don't really support those in Ubuntu
<kirkland> Jesi-Idle: there's also QEMU
<kirkland> Jesi-Idle: which is pure *emulation*
<kirkland> Jesi-Idle: but that's ungodly slow
<kirkland> akgraner: next?
<akgraner> <brettalton> kirkland: so what's the consensus with all the different hypervisors out there? for open source ones that can run on Ubuntu, use KVM if your processor has it, use virt-manager if you want a GUI, use Xen if that's your personal preference and use VirtualBox if your CPU doesn't support KVM??
<kirkland> brettalton: it's going to be hard for me to answer that one objectively
<kirkland> brettalton: so I'm not going to try to be objective ....
<kirkland> brettalton: Use KVM if you can (ie, if your CPU supports it)
<kirkland> you'll get by far the best performance out there
<kirkland> and full support from Ubuntu, Canonical, and upstream
<kirkland> this is really where the momentum is with developers right now
<kirkland> Xen is a reasonable option if your hardware doesn't support KVM
<kirkland> but Xen is not officially supported by Canonical;  it is in Universe, and there are some good people looking after it
<kirkland> but every day that goes by, more new hardware ships with VT
<kirkland> and Xen slowly eeks its way out
<kirkland> I don't have much experience with VirtualBox
<kirkland> though I understand it's quite popular
<kirkland> it's slow compared to KVM
<kirkland> and it, like Xen, is a universe-only project
<kirkland> if it meets your needs, that's great; i'm glad you're happy with it
<kirkland> as for virt-manager, it's a useful GUI
<kirkland> not perfect, by any stretch
<kirkland> but if you want to use virt, and need a GUI, it's a decent option
<kirkland> me, i'm a command-line only sort of guy
<kirkland> akgraner: one more ...
<akgraner> <cemc> QUESTION: how much is the performance penalty on using an img vs. a physical partition?
<kirkland> cemc: i'm not sure exactly
<kirkland> cemc: but I always use disk images and virtio, and that's really quick
<kirkland> cemc: i can't really say;  if you benchmark it, let me know
<kirkland> all, thanks for your attention
<kirkland> and good questions
<kirkland> I hope you enjoyed this presentation
<jcastro> thanks kirkland!
<kirkland> with that, I'm handing it back to akgraner ....
<akgraner> Thanks kirkland  Awesome session!!
* jcastro changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to Ubuntu Open Week! https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek (changes made, please check regularly) || Session:   Welcome to the new Edubuntu - Stephane Graber     || All questions go in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
 * stgraber waves to everyone
<jcastro> ok next we have edubuntu
<jcastro> take it away!
* jcastro changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to Ubuntu Open Week! https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek (changes made, please check regularly) || Session: Welcome to the new Edubuntu - Stephane Graber || All questions go in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<stgraber> Hey everyone, I'm StÃ©phane Graber (french for Stefan).
<stgraber> I live in Quebec, Canada and work as LTSP developer and Ubuntu liaison for Revolution Linux.
<stgraber> LTSP stands for Linux Terminal Server Project and is about having
<stgraber> thin clients booting (ed)Ubuntu from a central server.
<stgraber> My friend and fellow Edubuntu council member, Jonathan Carter (highvoltage)
<stgraber> also started working for Revolution Linux this week !!
 * stgraber waves to highvoltage 
<highvoltage> hi everyone!
<stgraber> In the Ubuntu community I'm mostly known as
<stgraber> an Edubuntu council member and Ubuntu core developer
<stgraber> mostly working on LTSP (that I maintain and develop),
<stgraber> Education, Community (I'm part of the EMEA membership approval boards)
<stgraber> and the QA team (ISO testing).
<stgraber> Now, enough about me, let's speak of Edubuntu !
<stgraber> For this session, I'll start by a quick reminder of what Edubuntu is as it's been released in Karmic,
<stgraber> then we'll look back at Edubuntu's history for a bit
<stgraber> and then I'll quickly go through our short, middle and long term goals.
<stgraber> Then during the remaining time, I'll be answering any question you may have.
<stgraber> Now, a quick reminder of what Edubuntu is (but all of you already know right ? ;))
<stgraber> For those of you who haven't heard the name before, Edubuntu is an Ubuntu derivative for education.
<stgraber> It's aimed for usage at school, at home with children as well as in high school and university on the server.
<stgraber> The distribution itself is directly based on Ubuntu
<stgraber> with which it shares its desktop environment (gnome)
<stgraber> and all of the Ubuntu software and then, on top of that, adds a lot of educational software.
<stgraber> Edubuntu also optionally let's you install a LTSP server
<stgraber> so you can then have thin clients or regular computers boot on the network
<stgraber> and run Edubuntu in no time with nothing installed on their harddisks.
<stgraber> In karmic, it comes under the form of a DVD image for 32 and 64 bit CPUs.
 * stgraber waves to LaserJock too
<stgraber> It's mostly thanks to Jordan (LaserJock) that we had a rocking Karmic release and are back on www.distrowatch.com !
 * LaserJock waves to everybody
<highvoltage> and ranking #26 for the last week as well!
<stgraber> Now, before I quickly go through our plans for the future, let's speak of the past a little bit
<stgraber> The Edubuntu project started in 2005 with 5.10 (Breezy Badger), then improved over the years as Ubuntu did.
<stgraber> LTSP was included in Edubuntu making it more and more used mainly in the classrooms.
<stgraber> An education server component was also added by packaging SchoolTool and Moodle.
<stgraber> At some point (8.04 LTS - Hardy Heron), it was decided that Edubuntu wouldn't continue to be a distribution
<stgraber> and would instead become a simple addon on top of Ubuntu.
<stgraber> This change was criticised by most of our users as it was making Edubuntu's installation a lot harder and longer than it used to be.
<stgraber> Also there was no longer a Live environment that you could use to demo or test Edubuntu.
<stgraber> It took us over a year of meeting, discussions with Canonical and our users to revert that change in Karmic where we are a real distribution again !
<stgraber> and as highvoltage noted, we seem to have done it quite well for a "dead" distro (as distrowatch used to call us for a while) !!
<stgraber> Regarding LTSP, during 8.04's development cycle, LTSP was moved to Ubuntu Alternate and we wanted to keep it that way as it lets more users install LTSP.
<stgraber> Though we also included it on the Edubuntu DVD so one can install a regular workstation, a server or simply use the Live CD without touching his harddisk.
<stgraber> Before I start speaking of our goals, any question at this point ?
<highvoltage> 21:10 < Jesi-Idle> Question: will you still be able to add the Edubuntu packages to your Ubuntu install?
<stgraber> absolutely
<stgraber> Educational softwares still appear in the software center
<highvoltage> 21:10 < AlanBell> QUESTION: how do you have something suitable for education from pre-school through to university?
<highvoltage> AlanBell: short answer: we don't completely, it's one of our aims and goals though so as time progresses we would hopefully fill more and more gaps
<stgraber> Our approach is to have all applications on the DVD, then users can either install them all and filter them or only install the ones they want.
<LaserJock> mind if I mention something on that one?
<stgraber> LaserJock: please do
<LaserJock> Edubuntu was structured to be somewhat modular
<LaserJock> we've created what we call "application bundles" for Pre-school, Primary, Secondary, and Tertiary aged students
<LaserJock> in the future we would like to not only do that with our applications
<LaserJock> but also with themes (we currently have 2 different themes, one for kids and a plain one for older students)
<LaserJock> so we make it work by being highly modular and hopefully flexible enough for users to decide wha they need
<LaserJock> done
<highvoltage> 21:11 < AlanBell> QUESTION in the UK and other countries there is a standardised national curriculum for schools, what is being done to ensure the whole thing can be taught on Edubuntu?
<stgraber> Basically, with that modularity LaserJock mentioned, we should be able to filter through the menu and show only what's applicable to a certain region/school system
<stgraber> it's part of our goals for 10.04 to be able to propose that kind of adaptation to the different school systems and countries
<LaserJock> it will also likely take support from Ubuntu Local teams to help
<stgraber> absolutely
<LaserJock> Edubuntu can't know about all the standards of every country around the world
<highvoltage> We would welcome contributions that would make Edubuntu more curriculum-friendly for any area though
<stgraber> indeed, we'll need input from the loco teams on that
<stgraber> I'll take one more question and continue, there will be room for more questions at the end
<highvoltage> 21:11 < Jesi-Idle> Question: Edubuntu is great, I enjoy it and think it could be a great resource for many students, and teachers... but it doesn't matter how great Edubuntu becomes if we don't get people to use it, how whould you suggest one go about encouraging schools in their area to try Edubuntu?
<stgraber> I believe that locoteam would be a good way to spread the word
<highvoltage> Schools have a big problem in that their often left with products that are unsupported
<highvoltage> I think if you can show them that you'll hold their hand and give them support,
<highvoltage> and that there's a large community out there that can help them maintain their system,
<LaserJock> With Edubuntu 9.10 DVD you can also do live demo's to help people see what's available
<highvoltage> they'd be more inclined to try it out and keep using it as well
<stgraber> thanks for all the questions so far, now I'll quickly go through our goals for the next few months, then I'll be taking questions again.
<stgraber> so, our short term goals
<stgraber> As some may have noticed, the current Edubuntu Council is only made of two members (Jonathan and I) as Jordan has resigned due to time constraints from his new job.
<stgraber> So we will be having elections quite soon to get the council to at least 4 members and then 5 members (our goal).
 * stgraber wants to thank LaserJock again for the awesome work on Edubuntu he did over the last few years
<highvoltage> ++
<stgraber> Also, we have been working on a few documents that will help us get more and more contributors.
<stgraber> That includes cleaning up the wiki a bit, creating task list for new contributors and improving our website.
<stgraber> that's our goals for the next months or so, that way we'll be ready to work on Lucid
<stgraber> Our middle term goals mostly focus on the next LTS release, 10.4 Lucid Lynx.
<stgraber> The main changes we thought about so far and that will be discussed at UDS are:
<stgraber>  - Having LTSP available in the LiveCD
<stgraber>  - Avoid the text installer (saves space) except for server installation (Moodle for example)
<stgraber>  - Add more applications and improve the ones already present (general goal)
<stgraber>  - Work on the menus so we can easily show what's best for the user (depending on its country, language and grade)
<stgraber>  - Include more packages from sister projects (Qimo, Guadalinex)
<stgraber> (I hope I didn't forget anything major here ...)
<stgraber> Our long term goals are quite obvious:
<stgraber>  - Get more contributors !!
<stgraber> That's probably the most important one ;)
<stgraber>  - Easily configure the distribution so it matches the user's usage (country, region, language, ...) as the need in education is extremely different depending on where you are
<stgraber>  - Propose other installation medias and maybe other "editions" (netbook ?)
<stgraber> I see some questions on -chat, we'll be taking them again in a few minutes and will have plenty of time to answer them all
<stgraber> Now, I hope that some of you want to join us ;)
<stgraber> If you are interested in contributing to the Edubuntu project, you are more than welcome.
<stgraber> You can easily get in touch with us on IRC (#edubuntu) or on our mailing lists (edubuntu-users and edubuntu-devel on http://lists.ubuntu.com).
<stgraber> Feedback, help with bugs, new developers and more generally great people hanging around are welcome to join.
<stgraber> If you attend the Ubuntu Developer Summit in Dallas (16-20 Nov), I'll be there and will be scheduling a few sessions.
<LaserJock> The Edubuntu team hangs out in #edubuntu naturally enough
<LaserJock> also the edubuntu-devel mailing list (on lists.ubuntu.com) is a great place to get involved
<stgraber> That's basically it as far as presenting the project and our goals is concerned, I'll be taking questions again and will of course appreciate the input from LaserJock and highvoltage
<highvoltage> 21:15 < Jesi-Idle> Question: this isn't really a question as much as it is a suggestion, so I'm sorry if it's out of place but one thing I think would great for Edubuntu is if we could gather free educational texts like study guides and reviews and package them
<highvoltage> There's lots of requests for off-line content, especially in bandwidth deprived areas, and there are some nice content available out there, like the wikipedia for schools project
<highvoltage> I'm going to compbine two questions here:
<highvoltage> 21:17 < dscassel> Question: Are there institutions/districts that have rolled out Edubuntu you can tell us about?  Any success stories?
<highvoltage> 21:18 < FrozenZia> Question: Follwing up on dscassel's Q, I'd be particularly interested in hearing about schools making use of old/refurbished computers...
<LaserJock> well, I'll give a personal, non-school example
<highvoltage> I worked on a project in South Africa where we installed 200+ computer labs using edubuntu and refurbished computers, there's a little write-up about it at http://jonathancarter.co.za/files/static/docs/tuxlabs.pdf
<LaserJock> I recently gave an old ClassmatePC I had with Edubuntu on it to a neighbor boy, 4 years old
<LaserJock> he loves it and his parents love it
<LaserJock> in fact he just got a Wii and his parents told me they would rather he play on Edubuntu
<stgraber> As I mentioned at the beginning, I'm working on LTSP-Cluster, that's large scale (hundreds to a few thousands thin clients) deployment of LTSP mostly in schools. They often don't directly use Edubuntu though they use the packages we maintain and debug. Some of them use new thin clients, some other use old computers (PIII being great as thin client for example)
<highvoltage> 21:21 < mhall1191work> QUESTION: What tools does Edubuntu include to help teachers?  Things like lesson planning, gradebooks, attendance, etc
<stgraber> currently, the main tool we ship that helps teachers is iTalc for classroom management (see what the students are doing)
<stgraber> we also maintain Moodle for course management
<stgraber> highvoltage, LaserJock: Something I forgot ?
<LaserJock> hopefully in the future SchoolTool might also be included
<highvoltage> I believe Schooltool would also be useful, it's not in Ubuntu at the moment due to broken dependencies
<LaserJock> we're always open to suggestions
<highvoltage> but it most probably will be again in the future
<highvoltage> 21:25 < sebsebseb> QUESTION:  Do you think that  Edubuntu should become the only OS for a school?  Or do you think  students/pupils should be learning Windows as well, but maybe also Mac OS X if schools can afford to buy Macs?
<LaserJock> of course ;-)
<highvoltage> I believe that it would be good if a school can get by by only using Edubuntu, I don't think we'll ever want it to be a requirement
<LaserJock> I think schools should use what works
<LaserJock> Edubuntu will probably not fit *every* use case
<stgraber> I think that showing different OS may be interesting for schools though we should be able to cover all their needs with Edubuntu
<highvoltage> 21:31 < mhall1191work> QUESTION: Does Edubuntu do anything specifically for OLPC laptops?
<highvoltage> we had some people involved who worked on packaging the Sugar interface for Ubuntu
<LaserJock> that would be a great area for people to get involved with
<highvoltage> 21:32 < bob3> QUESTION: For schools, the cost of setting up a lab is obviously very important. How much would an Edubuntu classroom of 40 computers cost considering that it would be using LTSP. What are the required specifications for the clients and for the server?
<stgraber> starting with jaunty and now karmic, we have local applications working quite well
<stgraber> in the past, the main issue with LTSP was firefox which was killing a server quite easily
<stgraber> now, if your thin client is powerful enough (atom based being the best for new hardware or P3 with ~500M of memory) you can run these softwares locally
<stgraber> and keep the others on the server
<stgraber> that helps decrease the load considerably
<stgraber> so for 40 computers, if they are capable of running local applications, I would think it's possible with a good dual-core and some 4GB of RAM
<stgraber> network also needs to be good
<stgraber> where I work, we can put up to 150 users on a dual-quadcore with 16GB of RAM, that's clearly entirely different hardware but that may give you an idea
<highvoltage> QUESTION: Did you know that someone is selling ClassmatePCs loaded with Edubuntu? http://tinyurl.com/edubuntu
<stgraber> if you need more specific information, feel free to poke me a bit later
<highvoltage> We know of quite a few cases where Edubuntu is sold with PC's, personally I didn't know about that specific one yet.
<LaserJock> one of the problems with running an open source distro that you give away for free is you never really know where it goes :-)
<highvoltage> 21:36 < mhall1191work> QUESTION: For a large lab, getting a server with enough memory can be a challenge.  What options are there for labs with a memory-constrained server?
<stgraber> development for the classmate was initialiy done by Canonical and Ubuntu improved so it works "quite" well on it. I personaly own a Classmate with Edubuntu too ;) (though not this one)
<highvoltage> I think that ties in with what stgraber said earlier, if you use local apps, you can reduce memory usage on a server drastically
<stgraber> indeed, same thing, if you want more detailed information, feel free to poke me directly as it depends on quite a few variables to determine what kind of hardware requirement you'll have
<highvoltage> you can also use a smaller footprint user interface such as LXDE, although you'll lose out on some tools and functionality
<stgraber> highvoltage: indeed, that may help, or even only running the applications you need (kind-of kiosk mode) if applicable
<highvoltage> any answers that need clarification or further questions?
<highvoltage> 21:45 < slacker_nl> QUESTION: does edubuntu also have tools for teachers and principals for student administration? or is that not the goal for edubuntu?
<stgraber> I guess that's the goal with schooltool, though it's not in yet
<highvoltage> We will include Schooltool (http://schooltool.org/) again once some of its packaging problems have been addressed
<stgraber> but if someone is interested on working on it, that'd absolutely be great and it looks like a great tool to have
<highvoltage> 21:47 < ewaldmire> QUESTION:  Will SchoolTool possibly be included in an update to Karmic, or will this have to wait until 10.04?
<LaserJock> 10.04 I think
<highvoltage> I doubt there would be a backport available for karmic, I think the Zope dependencies is the problem for karmic
<LaserJock> SchoolTool does have a PPA
<highvoltage> so 10.04 at the soonest officially
<stgraber> 10.04 would be great, then we can backport or you can use the PPA
<highvoltage> 21:47 < sebsebseb> QUESTION:  I assume  that most/all of Edubuntu can  still be installed into a standard  Ubuntu install  using for example sudo apt-get install edubuntu-desktop
<LaserJock> and also edubuntu-desktop-kde for Kubuntu users
<stgraber> yes, we still have package bundles and the edubuntu-desktop and edubuntu-desktop-kde packages
<highvoltage> Absolutely! All of Edubuntu can be installed on an Ubuntu system, you can do a search in your favourite package manager for "edubuntu" to find the edubuntu meta-packages
<stgraber> you can also install individual softwares through the new software center
<highvoltage> I want to add that we have an IRC channel on this network- #edubuntu, all of you are welcome to pop in at any time even if it's just to say hi or to ask a quick question
<highvoltage> otherwise you're more than welcome to also lurk around and contribute when you can
<highvoltage> it's not an extremely busy channel so you won't get spammed too much :)
<stgraber> Before giving the room to Elizabeth Krumbach with "Women in Open Source - Issues", I want to quickly give a few useful links:
<stgraber>  - http://www.edubuntu.org obviously
<stgraber>  - http://www.ltsp.org for LTSP
<stgraber>  - https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP as documentation for LTSP in Ubuntu
<stgraber> ^ there's great stuff there
<stgraber>  - http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/edubuntu/releases/karmic/release/ for those who'd like to download Edubuntu
<highvoltage> stgraber: we still have a few minutes right?
<stgraber> absolutely
<highvoltage> 21:52 < ewaldmire> QUESTION: Can you give a brief description/update on LTSP-Cluster or any other ability to use multiple LTSP servers for  Edubuntu (with load balancing?)
<stgraber> sure
<highvoltage> LTSP-Clustee also has a nice web interface where you can manage your thin client settings without having to edit lts.conf by text file
<stgraber> especially as I'm the main developer of LTSP-Cluster and now helped by highvoltage at Revolution Linux
<stgraber> basically it provides you with a few of seeing your whole LTSP network
<stgraber> configure it with that web interface
<stgraber> have a lot of servers that will report their state to a central load balancer
<highvoltage> 21:53 < Jesi-Idle> Question: What plans does Edubuntu have for students with special needs?
<stgraber> which will in turn be used by the thin client before connection so you spread your load on all your servers
<highvoltage> (sorry to cut you short there a bit stgraber)
<stgraber> no problem
<LaserJock> I would love to see people with a passion for special needs students and adults with learning disabilities join the Edubuntu cause
<highvoltage> in terms of special needs, I speak under correction but I think it's an area that we should perhaps spend some focus on at some point
<highvoltage> I've seen adult people who can't read who gained a lot by using some of the reading and touch-typing software
<LaserJock> this is an area where Linux and the Ubuntu project can really shine, in my opinion
<highvoltage> even tuxmath :)
<LaserJock> but we need help
* akgraner changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to Ubuntu Open Week! https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek (changes made, please check regularly) || Session:   Women In Open Source - Issues - Elizabeth Krumbach   || All questions go in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<stgraber> Thanks everyone for attending and for the great questions you asked.
* jcastro changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to Ubuntu Open Week! https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek (changes made, please check regularly) || Session: Women in Open Source - Issues by Elizabeth Krumbach || All questions go in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<highvoltage> LaserJock, stgraber I guess that's a wrap?
<highvoltage> thanks everyone! we'll continue on #edubuntu
<stgraber> feel free to join #edubuntu if you have more questions or if you simply want to talk
<jcastro> thanks guys!
<jcastro> ok next up we have pleia2 with Women in Open Source!
<jcastro> take it away pleia2
<pleia2> Hi everyone! Welcome to the Ubuntu Open Week Session on the Ubuntu Women Project: Women in Free Software Issues
<pleia2> My name is Elizabeth Krumbach. I currently work as a Debian and Ubuntu Systems Administrator for a Philadelphia-based Linux-centric technology services provider. I became involved in the Ubuntu Women project as soon as I found out about it in the spring of 2006.
<pleia2> Aside from Ubuntu Women work, I'm a member of the Community Council. I'm currently heavily involved with the LoCo Teams projects, specifically with my own state of Pennsylvania and the greater work of the US Teams Mentoring program. I also work on the Ubuntu Community Learning Project (which I did an UOW session for Tuesday).
<pleia2> On also I contribute upstream some as a Debian Package Maintainer and am the sysadmin for the Ubuntu Pennsylvania Team Linode.
<pleia2> In this session I'm going to give a general introduction to the Ubuntu Women Project, explain why we feel such a project is important.
<pleia2> Then we'll go into a Q&A session. Following this session Mackenzie Morgan will be hosting a session about ways to resolve some of the issues I will discuss - so if you have questions about actually solving the problems, I suggest you wait for her session :)
<pleia2> So, I am going to start out by saying that I am not speaking for all women in F/OSS or all women Ubuntu, that would be impossible! The opinions of women inside and outside of the Ubuntu Women project vary widely.
<pleia2> While discussing "Issues" I am drawing from my own experiences and experiences of other women within F/OSS communities that curb or prevent participation, these experiences are not shared by every woman who becomes involved, but do impact many.
<pleia2> Now, to the resources! The official website for the Ubuntu Women project is http://women.ubuntu.com. From there you can get to all our other resources, including our Mailing list, Forums, Launchpad and Wiki.
<pleia2> History-wise, the project was loosely founded on the forums and in IRC in the summer of 2005. It was extended by Vidya Ayer to mailing lists and a website, and became an official team in early 2006.
<pleia2> Intitally it was modeled closely after the Debian Women (http://women.debian.org) project, but since their focus was primarily getting women to become Developers it quickly became apparent that the Ubuntu Women approach would have to have a much broader focus, encouraging women to be a part of every facet of Ubuntu.
<pleia2> Before I get into the details of why we have the project, I want to emphasise that we have a very serious committment to not being separatist or exclusive.
<pleia2> If you join our IRC channel, mailing list or forums you'll find both men and women involved in the project. We have no gender requirement placed upon our members, anyone who is interested in getting more women involved is welcome to join us, so please do!
<pleia2> The main goal of the entire project is to get more women involved with the general Ubuntu community. As such, separatism would defeat the whole goal of this project.
<pleia2> And really, the "#1 Bug" in the Ubuntu Women Project is the need for the project to exist. We would like to be able to dissolve the project in the future when more women are comfortable getting involved themselves.
<pleia2> So, why do we feel this project is important?
<pleia2> Simply put, those of us who are involved with Ubuntu Women believe that everyone has the potential be a valuable resource for the Ubuntu project and we should work to be inclusive and encouraging.
<pleia2> We've chosen to focus upon becoming well-versed in the issues currently facing women specifically in the community so we can shape our project to cater to those issues.
<pleia2> Does anyone have any questions about the premise of the project before I discuss what kinds of issues many women encounter?
<pleia2> ok, I'll move on then... What are these issues?
<pleia2> We don't want to dwell on the past because we want to move forward in a positive and encouraging way, but for the record, there have been a few incidents which have caused women within the project to either leave or pull back involvement, these are documented here: http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Ubuntu
<pleia2> Looking at these incidents by themselves may not seem like much, but the culture within F/OSS is such that such incidents compound an already very male-dominated space where as a minority many women feel uncomfortable.
<pleia2> This discomfort comes from a variety of things, but frequently stems from being (or feeling like) you're the only woman in a room/project/irc channel/etc
<pleia2> As much as I love and appreciate the men I work with on projects, it's comforting to not be the sole representive of a minority within a community :)
<pleia2> Many women in F/OSS also frequently receive tongue-in-cheek marriage proposals from strangers upon learning they use Linux (it's not really that funny, we've heard it before, and at this point it's off-putting), among the frequently less flattering comments asking for pictures or assumptions being made about your looks.
<pleia2> Many have been exposed to situations where they were part of an audience at an event where the speaker or audience member makes remarks assuming the audience is all male (please, please don't start another presentation at a tech event with "welcome, gentlemen!")
<pleia2> There are often assumptions being made that you're attending an event as a "just a girlfriend or wife" rather than an actual contributor - and then there is the resulting shock when people learn you're actually involved.
<pleia2> And in some cultures, there is still a stigma against women holding leadership positions, so even in F/OSS a vocal minority of detractors may make it difficult for women in these areas. Even with support from much of the team, these detractors are exhausting and cause many women to avoid getting too involved.
<pleia2> There is also an atmosphere in a lot F/OSS projects that's a bit like a men's locker room, or a boys club where crude and sexist behavior is the norm (I don't see much of this in Ubuntu itself, but it is an image within F/OSS that we need to combat)
<pleia2> All this boils down to is a culture where you are not only a minority, but you're constantly reminded that you're a minority and when you start being unsure about your committment? It makes it that much easier to give up, or not even start getting involved at all!
<pleia2> < highvoltage> QUESTION: I've followed some of the geekfemism conversation, and it seems to mostly focus on what not to do and negative things that people have done, wouldn't it be more effective focussing more on things that do work well and showing why equality is beneficial to all?
<pleia2> That's why maco is doing a whole session following mine on Encouragement and how to Do It Right :)
<pleia2> So there are few women in F/OSS, you wouldn't believe what a relief it was for me to join Ubuntu Women so I could share experiences and have a network of support from people who understood these challenges.
<pleia2> any questions regarding these issues?
<pleia2> so I'll be pre-emptive about one question we tend to get
<pleia2> Why isn't there an Ubuntu <insert minority>?
<pleia2> Because no one has created one yet! The Ubuntu project is very open to other sub-groups like Ubuntu Women if there are people who feel a need to create it. Yes, #ubuntu-men exists, but for some reason nobody ever feels the need to hang out there.
<pleia2> And we understand that not everyone shares in these viewpoints, methods or goals, which is really a great thing about F/OSS - you don't have to. And if you're sincerely interested in getting involved we're always open to constructive discussion.
<pleia2> One of the things we're working hard to do is have #ubuntu-women be a place where women can come and feel comfortable, as well as others within the project joining us to engage in thoughtful discussion on the issues within the community
<pleia2> This is a delicate balance, and one that is a continuing challenge, but we have a really great team of folks from throughout the involvement spectrum of Ubuntu
<pleia2> And that's all I've got for the core of this session, so Q&A time!
<pleia2> < Gareth> QUESTION: Can offer some advice to men who want to encourage women to be involved in Ubuntu and F/LOSS community but don't want to appear to be patronizing?
<pleia2> maco will cover "how do we.." more in her session in 30 minutes, but essentially by treating women with respect and as equals
<pleia2> don't make assumptions about her involvent, just as you wouldn't a man, etc
<pleia2> < Jesi-Idle> Question: I'm a guy and I support what your doin, I'm not really sure what to say for this session, and I think that goes for most here and is why you're not getting many replies, I've never had a problem when it comes to gender equality and it's something I promote,   but I know that allot of my male friends really aren't that sensitive here, but they often don't realize it,
<pleia2> cont: what steps can one take to make sure the evironment doesn't seem so male-dominated, because I garuntee you many guys are completely oblivious
<pleia2> speaking up when you see other guys making comments is important
<pleia2> a lot of guys sit idly by when they see sexist behavior and assume the women will speak up for themselves - a lot of women don't, they just leave
<pleia2> < LaserJock> QUESTION: Do you think Ubuntu Women will ever go away? Will it vanish when its Bug #1 is fixed or will it continue on as a social gathering
<pleia2> As an official Ubuntu Project, it will go away
<pleia2> some of us might drift off into social channels though, at this point a lot of us are friends :)
<pleia2> < astechgeek_> QUESTION: How do new folks getting involved help with avoiding some of the issues that have happened in the past?
<pleia2> I believe most of the past issues came up simply because people weren't being mindful that Ubuntu is such a diverse community, being mindful is vital
<pleia2> there is an example of the "even some wives" mailing list post linked to the wiki page I posted earlier, the fellow who wrote that meant no harm (we all knew that), he just "didn't think" when he wrote it
<pleia2> < gQuigs1> QUESTION: I'm pretty sure I refer to "guys" when I give talks (but I mean it as all inclusive) should I try to cut that out?
<pleia2> this is a very good question
<pleia2> my mother called my sisters and I "guys" :)
<pleia2> but it's cultural, and not always acceptable
<pleia2> I tend to go with "folks" or other terms that I'm pretty sure are completely neutral
<pleia2> < MarkDude> QUESTION: in other words - it is up to ALL of us to 'call out' negative behavior, right? Not just the groups that are the target?
<pleia2> right!
<pleia2> and there are loads of ways to do this, humor helps :)
<pleia2> it's unfortunately common for men to join a "boys club" type channel and type the greeting "hello ladies!" as an insult
<pleia2> to which I reply with some flowery "wow, it's nice to be noticed for once!" and they end up looking terribly silly
<pleia2> < Jesi-Idle> Question: follow up, I do, I meant, if it's mostly a group of guys, the environment in which they meet, or some of the things the group does, while not sexual at all, may be seen as offensive, and the guys there may not even realize that, yeah there are many guys out there who are jerks, but I think allot of it is misunderstanding as well
<pleia2> certainly a lot of it is misunderstanding
<pleia2> asking people to "tone it down" does wonders, in Ubuntu we have the Code of Conduct which outlines some guidelines that require us to be respectful of each other - respect is huge
<pleia2> < czajkowski> QUESTION do you think many time we often go too politically correct so as to not offend, making people feel like they are walking on egg shells, how can we better interact with one another better?
<pleia2> great question!
<pleia2> it's true, and we don't want people to be walking on eggshells to interact with each other
<pleia2> the biggest thing here is we all need to learn to admit we make mistakes
<pleia2> I think in almost all the instances discribed on that "Incidents" page it was not the initial thing that happened that triggered the problems, but the response to it from the community
<pleia2> so if you offend and didn't mean to, try to apologise and move on, I will :)
<pleia2> < MarkDude> QUESTION: The statistical 'outlier' argument - how can we get the 'white dudes' to see that there is really not a welcoming environment sometimes?
<pleia2> it's difficult, one fellow I dated didn't "get it" until he was in situations with me where he saw me being treated differently because of my gender
<pleia2> I think by telling our stories, having sessions like this one, and continuing to succeed in spite of them we do a lot to help people see
<pleia2> < AlanBell> QUESTION: many blokes using Ubuntu have wives, girlfriends, daughters, mothers, sisters (I have all - except girlfriend) who they have normal social interactions with. Is there a bigger online issue than there is an offline issue? Why?
<pleia2> I think it depends on the community, some LoCo teams and LUGs are more welcoming to women, some IRC channels are very unwelcoming
<pleia2> and the other way around too
<pleia2> I will say that I've never gotten a marriage proposal in person, it tends to be the perceived anonymity of the internet that allows those kinds of jokes
<pleia2> < erUSUL> QUESTION: "it was not the initial thing that happened that triggered the problems, but the response to it from the community" so the real problem is not sexism but that the community overreacts to otherwise pretty harmless things put other way has too thin skin ??
<pleia2> I mean the community as in the wider F/OSS community
<pleia2> I once made a suggestion on a mailing list to use the term "spouses" rather than "wives" in an article - instead of accepting my suggestion I was told I was nit-picking, getting upset over insignificant details, etc
<pleia2> if they had just accepted my suggestion, we would have all been happy
<pleia2> (and the article would have been more accurate :))
<pleia2> < MarkDude> QUESTION- is the root of MANY problems encountered - the inability to admit that you made a mistake?
<pleia2> I believe this is part of it, and a general negative reaction many people have to being "corrected" for something where they don't see a problem
<pleia2> < MarkDude> QUESTION -follow-up so in other words - dont think that you are PERFECT? Because no one is?
<pleia2> right, and be open to concerns others have
<pleia2> I've certainly said daft things in my time without thinking, but when someone explained to me that it was wrong I did what I could to be open to not doing it again (and probably apologizing)
<pleia2> < mhall1191work> QUESTION: If we think someone is over-reacting to an offense, how should we approach them?
<pleia2> carefully, and with the openness to try and understand why they are reacting in the way they are
<pleia2> < gQuigs1> QUESTION: Do you think there are many women who simply don't state that they are women to interact with the community and not deal directly with these issues?
<pleia2> there are, I know several within Ubuntu
<pleia2> and there is a long tradition of women in F/OSS taking gender neutral names to avoid people knowing
<pleia2> < ianto> QUESTION: In all the #ubuntu- channels I am involved, when mentioning that you are female you suddenly get this special oh so Godly treatment.  What do you think of this sudden chance in attitude?
<pleia2> I have encountered this from time to time, but more frequently people ask me for pictures :\
<pleia2> it all boils down to us having different experiences, they can be all kinds, but it's frequently being *treated differently* in some way
<pleia2> I have to wrap this portion up now, thanks everyone!
<pleia2> Next up for Ubuntu Open Week will be Mackenzie Morgan talking about how we can *address* these issues that I've covered here, so if anyone has any questions about that I'd suggest you wait until her session.
<maco> do I have voice yet?
* pleia2 changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to Ubuntu Open Week! https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek (changes made, please check regularly) || Session: Women in Open Source - Encouragement by Mackenzie Morgan || All questions go in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<maco> great!
<maco> Welcome to the Ubuntu Open Week Session on the Ubuntu Women Project: Solutions to Issues in F/OSS
<maco> My name is Mackenzie Morgan.  I'm a test engineer at a Virginia-based consultancy firm specializing in supporting open source software.  I've only been involved in Ubuntu Women for about a year, though I've been helping out with Ubuntu for a bit over 2 years.
<maco> You just heard a bit about the issues and history from Lyz, so now I'm going to bring up ways of fixing that
<maco> Ubuntu Women has 4 goals: 1) Support and Encouragement, 2) Mentoring and Direction, 3) Highlight active women within the community, 4) Education on Sexism and Feminism.
<maco> So first is Support and Encouragement.  How can you, online or in your LoCo team, help support and encourage women in Ubuntu?
<maco> There are a number of good suggestions in the HowTo Encourage Women in Linux: http://tldp.org/HOWTO/Encourage-Women-Linux-HOWTO/ but remember, this is a guideline, and a lot of it is aimed at how to deal with new group members.  Of course, if you're already friends with the lady who just joined the group, you can keep treating her like your friend :P
<maco> That link really boils down to "be respectful."  And yes, I know as someone who has dated an Ubuntu developer, you're all going to think I'm a hypocrite to point at something that says not to hit on people.  My thinking is "Hello, nice to meet you. What's your name?" and "Marry me?" are not equivalent, and no, the joke isn't funny the 50th time someone hears it.
<maco> One thing on there I'd like to point out specifically is "3.5: Don't take the keyboard away."  Nothing sends a stronger message that you don't think someone is capable of learning and of taking care of their own system than not letting them stay in the driver's seat.  And this is true for how you should treat anyone new to the group or to Linux.
<maco> Another thing I think is important is that if a couple shows up, you should not direct all your technical questions to the male half of the couple.  For all you know, she's a kernel hacker, and he uses the mouse as a footpedal.
<maco> Gender ratios in computer science classes don't exactly help us when it comes to finding women who are programmers.  This should not stop us from finding women who can be developers.
<maco> Daniel Holbach & James Westby did a session earlier today on beginning Ubuntu Development.  One important takeaway: you do not need to be a programmer!  This is something which comes up a TON and thus bears repeating.  You do not need to be a programmer!
<maco> Suddenly "there are fewer women writing code than men writing code" isn't a barrier.  Feel free to encourage your non-programmer friends, men and women alike, to contribute.
<maco> Gareth asked a good question before about how not to appear patronising when encouraging a woman to get involved if you're a man. I'd say: be excited. "Oh! There's this really cool project and it totally lines up with your love of ______ so you should totally get involved!"
 * maco slows down so you can all read
<maco> Any questions about that?
<maco> OK then...
<maco> OK, second is Mentoring and Direction.
<maco> In the Ubuntu Women project we like to mentor new users and those who would like to find a way to fit into the contributor community.
<maco> I used to think developers were really scary and that they'd think I was stupid if I made a mistake or asked a "dumb" question.  I was wrong.  As far as I can tell, the closest they get to thinking that is thinking it's silly of me to ask questions when I already know the answer.
<maco> If you've encouraged someone to start contributing but they're really nervous about asking beginner-contrib questions in big channels, well...#ubuntu-women is a pretty small channel.  There are a few devs and devs-in-training hanging out there all the time.  We try to be encouraging and helpful, and I will personally I will /kick anyone who makes fun of a beginner question. :)
<maco> er ignore one of those "I will"s ;-)
<maco> Do not make comments about how you do not want to have to handhold a girl, ok?  If you don't want to mentor period, that's up to you, but assuming that one user or another will need more handholding to become a developer based on gender and not on things like "willingness to learn indepenently" isn't going to work.
<maco> And of course there are other ways to contribute besides traditional "development" such as all the ones found on http://www.ubuntu.com/community so if you meet someone who's really not interested in learning her way around the command line, but she's into art, GREAT!  Point her to the Art Team!
<maco> Questions?
<czajkowski> 21:09 < MarkDude> QUESTION- besides being a 'peer' how can I help others see why this is a 'human' issue?
<maco> I think AlanBell's question actually fit this nicely.  He mentioned how we've all got sisters and mums, and maybe wives or girlfriends too.  How do you want the women in your life to be treated?  Make people see that it's really about THAT
<maco> If you're calling someone out on something they said, try pointing out that if someone said that to their kid sister, they'd be none too happy about it
<maco> itnet7 asked in -chat for clarification on "don't take the keyboard"
<maco> Don't just snatch the keyboard away from the person you're helping. That shows a lack of trust in them.  If they offer it to you, you can take it, but be careful.  Are they offering because they really just don't care to learn, or because they're afraid of the computer?
<maco> If the latter, try to encourage them to take ownership of their system and lose that fear
<maco> More questions?
<maco> Ursinha says that "your mom's a woman too" doesn't always work, unfortunately.  I'm not sure how to explain that to people who don't understand that though.  If anyone knows a better analogy to use, I'm all ears
<maco>  
<maco> Third was Highlight women active in the community.
<maco> You may have seen our "Women Behind Ubuntu" column in Full Circle Magazine (http://fullcirclemagazine.org/). This is one of the ways we try to do this.
<maco> Why do we do this?  Being the only $foo in a room full of $bar is awkward and intimidating.  OK, some people have really thick skins and it doesn't bother them, but really thick skin should not be a requirement for participation.  Jonathan Carter (highvoltage, newest Ubuntu Developer) had a great blog post about this a while back http://jonathancarter.co.za/2009/09/30/the-importance-of-saying-hi/
<czajkowski> MarkDude> QUESTION - Dealing with community members is not that hard. What about those in leadership positions?
<maco> Oi! It's not question time yet :P
<maco> Um, that's a hard one.
<maco> We have governance structures in Ubuntu for this reason though
<maco> Hopefully not *everyone* in the Community Council is plotting against you
<maco> If they are, that is frightening.
<maco> So, I guess the thing to do is privately take the person aside (which could mean email) and express your grievance calmly.   Maybe point to relevant parts of the Code of Conduct.
<maco> Which you can find...
<maco> !coc
<ubottu> The Ubuntu Code of Conduct to which we ask all Ubuntu users to adhere can be found at http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct/
<maco> there ^
<maco> If you can't work something out privately, then it might be time to talk to the LoCo Council if you're having issues with your LoCo Team leader or to the Community Council if it's someone in the wider community
<maco> ok so back to my script...what was the last thing I said?
<maco> oh ok, this was the last thing
<maco> Why do we do this?  Being the only $foo in a room full of $bar is awkward and intimidating.  OK, some people have really thick skins and it doesn't bother them, but really thick skin should not be a requirement for participation.  Jonathan Carter (highvoltage, newest Ubuntu Developer) had a great blog post about this a while back http://jonathancarter.co.za/2009/09/30/the-importance-of-saying-hi/
<maco> Did it make it much easier for me at my first LUG meeting to see that there was another woman there?  Yes.  I wasn't alone.  That's what we want to do: get rid of the feeling of isolation.
<maco> As Lyz mentioned, sometimes women use gender neutral or male names online as a form of protection.  That's up to them, but I think it contributes to invisibility, which is something this horn-tootin' is supposed to battle.
<maco> That's why you *will* see me correct people on IRC who call me "he"
<maco> How can the guys help with this?  Well, I'm also a member of LinuxChix, and over there we talk about horn-tootin'.  If you see someone doing something awesome, say something!  Hey, Amber's been writing really awesome articles on the Ubuntu community.
<maco> See, it's easy
<maco> And you know, this doesn't have to be something you only do for women, not at all!  I think a lot of us get stuck in this mode where we complain about things that are broken but never take the time to say "thank you" or "you rock!" but doing so is really important. People want to feel appreciated.
<maco> So, if you're mentioning a list of people who do good work, think a second.  Do you really not know any women who do good work? Or is it just that they're not in your circle of friends? Why not include one if you know of one?
<maco> OK....any new questions yet? This is like 3/4 of the way through what I prepared.  Folks need to start asking questions!
<pleia2> < LaserJock> QUESTION: Does putting some women on a "pedestal" maybe lead to more problems? Like do you want them to be "heros" or "just another women in FLOSS"?
<maco> I hope I just answered that...
<pleia2> < MarkDude> QUESTION - We dont just need to try to encourage women to join, In general we need to encourage diversity? ( I think that makes us more interesting people on the whole.)
<maco> Yes!
<maco> Well really, saying it as "diversity" sounds odd too.
<maco> We need to encourage *everyone* to join
<maco> That some people are being discouraged is a problem, and so we need to do some encouraging to cancel out the discouragement effects
<maco> It just so happens that "everyone" is a rather diverse crowd
<maco> :)
<maco> Next?
<pleia2> < tiemonster> QUESTION: do you think having significant others' groups are a good trend, or should there be more of an effort to include them in the LUG?
<maco> As long as you call them that, I'm fine with it. Don't be like RubyFringe and have "Girlfriend Daycare" though
<maco> If you mean something about UW being a separatist group...I think Lyz covered that, right?
<pleia2> yep
<maco> We're part of the Ubuntu project, and we aim to help women move better within the wider projec
<maco> *project
<pleia2> < MarkDude> QUESTION - BBQ & beer - that is a great way to involve everyone - right?
<maco> Unless everyone includes underage folks, recovering alcoholics, vegetarians...
<maco> Yeah, I'm pretty sure those groups are part of "everyone"
<czajkowski> < Pendulum> QUESTION: How do we make it comfortable for people/women to speak up when they are feeling uncomfortable? If what's happened has you already feeling  uncomfortable, it can make it difficult.
<maco> Among its other uses, #ubuntu-women has at times been a place for people to rant when something in the wider community really ticked them off or offended them
<maco> Hopefully such ranting doesn't need to happen too often, though.
<maco> Of course, finding someone who agrees with you can help.
<maco> I mentioned the Community Council before. Lyz here (pleia2) is on it.  If you're uncomfortable raising an issue to one of the dudes on the CC because it was a sexism thing...talk to her
<maco> next?
<pleia2> < ssd7> QUESTION: Do you have any thoughts on how to encourage women that are simply users of free software and not just developers.  Are there any unique problems in the user space?
<maco> Definitely want to encourage them to at least be part of the user community so they have a network of friends for getting help.  That network of friends is something that makes Windows more attractive to people.  They know who to call for help.
<maco> And like I said above: don't want to be a developer, but have other talents? We can always use artists, translators, and just plain helpful people
<maco> Also: don't make the non-developer types feel unwelcome
<maco> Next?
<maco> ok will try to get through the end before questions overwhelm
<maco> Finally, Education on sexism and feminism is one of our things.
<maco> This isn't a really big one, and I think Lyz just did it, so...?  For this, I'm just going to point you to the http://geekfeminism.wikia.com wiki and http://geekfeminism.org blog as good places to learn about the issues.  A handful of Ubuntu Women members are involved in both of those sites.
<maco> Lyz already mentioned the wiki
<maco> There are also a ton of "Feminism 101" resources on the web
<maco> What this means for you to try to help in this goal is simply calling people out.  When someone does something discouraging or makes a sexist comment, publicly say "that's not cool."  You don't have to be a target of it to call it out.  And honestly?  If you're on the same side of the privilege fence as the person making the comment, they might listen better.
<maco> And if you find yourself being called out? Apologize! Not "I'm sorry that you were offended" but "I'm sorry that I said ___."  Take ownership of the issue.
<maco> Want an example of a really awesome apology? Check out the one Stephen Fry gave a few weeks ago: http://www.stephenfry.com/2009/10/19/poles-politeness-and-politics-in-the-age-of-twitter/ (yes, it's long, but notice how he admits that he is responsible for having said what he did)
<maco> OK, that's the end of the scripted bit. *Now* I'll take remaining questions
<pleia2> < gQuigs1> QUESTION: what is a good example of an event to include *everyone*?
<maco> A few days ago Laura Czajkowski gave a session on event organizing. She mentioned Geeknics.
<czajkowski> yup
<maco> Find a park, have a picnic, make it potluck style so everyone's guaranteed there's something they'll like
<czajkowski> cypher.skynet.ie/Openweek
<maco> Next?
<pleia2> < LaserJock> QUESTION: Is it possible to create too "safe" for a place? Can it can it create, for lack of a better term, thin skin when people have to deal with other communities?
<maco> I love the Ubuntu community.  When I am shocked by visits to non-Ubuntu IRC channels, I consider this a deficiency in them, not in me.
<maco> Yes, I've gotten used to the cozy encouraging atmosphere we have.  I don't think that makes abrasive arses any less of arses though.
<maco> There was one someone sent me before I starte
<maco> question: would it be helpful or merely silencing for men to take on some of the Unicorn Talks (to highlight that it's a *community* issue)
<maco> To that I say: allies rock!
<maco> A lot of you may have seen mdz's feminist blog posts.  I'm glad to have such an eloquent person around to help take care of some of the burden
<maco> Next?
<pleia2> < efm> What are Unicorn talks?
<maco> Ah yeah, the Unicorn Law
<maco> I think emmajane came up with this one
<maco> Women in Open Source are like unicorns: we're only rumoured to exist :)
<maco> Well, what emmajane came up with is the Unicorn Law
<maco> and the Unicorn Law states something like (paraphrasing) the longer you are a woman in FOSS the likelihood that you will be approached to speak or write about women in FOSS approaches 1
<maco> next?
<maco> (last one)
<maco> (further questions in #ubuntu-women, but others will answer them because I'm going out to dinner after this)
<pleia2> < Jesi-Idle> Question: by windows you must mean because it has so many users, because there really isn't much of a community at all there, there forums are rarely moderated, users rarely receiving any answers, it's not very inviting, so I have to ask what you mean by this, because I don't understand your point
<maco> Yes, because there are so many users
<maco> Windows users can turn to the next cubicle over for help
<maco> We usually can't, so it's important that we know where to find each other.
<maco> Alright, I think that's a wrap! Thanks for coming folks!
* pleia2 changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to Ubuntu Open Week! https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek (changes made, please check regularly) || Sessions resume on Friday at 15:00 UTC || All questions go in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<positiv> is there anyone here really experienced with partitions?
<Xiella`> positiv: you can find support in #ubuntu
<yos> Ah, no more sessions today ?
<sebsebseb> There was going to be a Wine one, but not anymore :(
<yos> :(
<brettalton> Does anyone know why there is no session on Wine anymore? The schedule keeps changing and its very frustrating
<brettalton> If you look at the PDF that Ubuntu released and had professionally designed, it's completely different from the one on the wiki
<AlanBell> brettalton: the wine one got cancelled
<AlanBell> the Mark Shuttleworth one got moved, which probably pushed a few other things about
<pleia2> brettalton: unfortunately people have things come up unexpectedly sometimes, these were last minute changes :(
<AlanBell> the wiki is going to be more up to date than a prepared PDF
<pleia2> sorry for the trouble, but there was nothing that could be done to prevent it
<brettalton> no problem. just am a little frustrated... passionate Ubuntu user you know :P
<brettalton> I understand the situation so thanks.
<awesome> Hello
<Guest83001> Can any one tell me how to get the fire fox falsh plug in for ubunti 9.10
<gamerchick02> Guest83001: this question might be posed better in #ubuntu, but you can get it from the repos. enable the multiverse repo and then search for flash.
<Guest83001> Thanks
<gamerchick02> you're welcome.
#ubuntu-classroom 2009-11-06
<DieSetter> is there anyway to install 9.10 but use the network driver from the 9.04 live cd
<Doorman352> If you can let me know, Iá¸¿ having issues with my laptop and have to use 9.04 ......
<DieSetter> the one that ships with 9.10 restricts my network speeds to 45kps
<Doorman352> Was it something I said?
<IdleOne> Doorman352: and DieSetter please join #ubuntu for support.
<rockstar1> Hello! Does anybody knows some tutorial to install Ubuntu on Intel-based Macbook?
<IdleOne> !install
<ubot2> Ubuntu can be installed in lots of ways. Please see https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Installation for documentation. Problems during install? See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommonProblemsInstall and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DapperReleaseNotes/UbiquityKnownIssues - Don't want to use a CD? Try http://tinyurl.com/3exghs - See also !automate
<ubottu> Ubuntu can be installed in lots of ways. Please see https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Installation for documentation. Problems during install? See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommonProblemsInstall and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DapperReleaseNotes/UbiquityKnownIssues - Don't want to use a CD? Try http://tinyurl.com/3exghs - See also !automate
<IdleOne> rockstar: please join #ubuntu for further support
<rockstar> IdleOne, I think you're talking to the wrong one of us.  :)
<IdleOne> lol rockstar sorry
<rockstar> :)
<IdleOne> but  now you know :P
<ccm> 1/3
<ccm> ups
<amonch> hello everyone
<jmarsden> amonch: This is #ubuntu-classroom.  There is no class right now.  If you are seeking help about Ubuntu, try in #ubuntu
<amonch> been looking for someone who can teach me to set-up a server in a classroom laboratory
<roots> Hello
<roots> Im I welcome to this class?
<roots> Im a newbie to linux. May you assist me with all the necessary documentation to be able to setup a mailserver in ubuntu
<roots> exit
<jmarsden> roots: This is #ubuntu-classroom.  There is no class right now.  If you are seeking help about Ubuntu, try in #ubuntu or for servers try #ubuntu-server
<jj3502> No screensaver when running on battery
<jj3502> ?
<Forlon> jj3502: try in #ubuntu, this is no supportchannel here :-)
<Animagladius> Huhu.
<Sertse> xubuntu is first when it starts right?
<charlie-tca> yes
<Sertse> Thanks.I see you're helping presenting it :) Gotta be a good day for me, xubuntu, +1 and ofc..sabfl.
<charlie-tca> Gotta be!
<yadudoc> jvc007 ?
* jcastro changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to Ubuntu Open Week! https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek (changes made, please check regularly) || Session: Xubuntu - Lot's of Kittens and Mice - knome and charlie-tca  || All questions go in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<jcastro> Gooooood morning everyone
<jcastro> we'll start in one minute
<jcastro> with Xubuntu - Lot's kittens and mice
<jcastro> charlie-tca, you may begin whenever you're ready!
<charlie-tca> Thanks,
<charlie-tca> jcastro
<charlie-tca> I'm Charlie Kravetz, known as charlie-tca on irc and the mailing lists. I am Xubuntu Quality Assurance Lead.
<charlie-tca> We are going to talk a bit about my favorite flavor this morning, Xubuntu.
<charlie-tca> We will take your questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, and
<charlie-tca> will have a few minutes at the end to answer questions you hold on to. Feel free to ask questions at any time,
<charlie-tca> but please start them with QUESTION: so they easy to spot. For example,
<charlie-tca> QUESTION: What is Xubuntu?
<charlie-tca> The answer would then be
<charlie-tca> Xubuntu is Ubuntu with the Xfce desktop. Xfce emphasizes conservation of system resources, which makes Xubuntu an excellent choice for any system, new or old.
<charlie-tca> Notice, that does not say "old only"
<charlie-tca> I do run an Athlon amd64 to use daily
<charlie-tca> As a ubuntu derivative, Xubuntu maintains the same high standards and quality that Ubuntu has. We still have bugs to track down and resolve, and we do help with the bugs in Ubuntu also. Testing is a combined effort, since the releases are on the same schedule.
<charlie-tca> Xubuntu is an ideal candidate for older hardware or low-end machines, thin-client networks, or those who would like to get more performance out of their hardware.
<charlie-tca> <mhall119|work> QUESTION: With LXDE coming in as the new low-resource desktop, is XFCE going to shift to become more of a full-power desktop like Gnome and KDE, or will it try and lower it's resource requirements to compete with LXDE?
<charlie-tca> I don't see a need to shift at this time. Of course, Xubuntu does not drive Xfce, either. We incorporate it, just as Ubuntu uses Gnome.
<charlie-tca> As for lowering the resource requirements, there are many other distributions out there with lower requirements already.
<charlie-tca> As a ubuntu derivative, Xubuntu maintains the same high standards and quality that Ubuntu has. We still have bugs to track down and resolve, and we do help with the bugs in Ubuntu also. Testing is a combined effort, since the releases are on the same schedule.
<charlie-tca> Also, Xubuntu is the Xfce-based distribution with a native 64-bit architecture. We produce both a 32-bit and 64-bit versions, and ports for the Mac PowerPC and Sony PlayStation 3.
<charlie-tca> <mhall119|work> QUESTION: Are the PPC ports fully supported?
<charlie-tca> Great question!
<charlie-tca> Unfortunately, we can not fully support the ports. There are, however, two freenode channels where our developers with macs hang out
<charlie-tca> Both #ubuntu-powerpc and #ubuntu-ps3 are available
<charlie-tca> <Jesi> Question: GNOME and KDE are already fast, especially when compare some other OS's (not going to say which, we all know), is there really any need XFCE? how much of a performance boost is one likely to get?
<charlie-tca> Again, let's not confuse desktop environments with distributions. I agree, Ubuntu and Kubuntu are fast. Can I run them on a PII with a 400MHz CPU?
<charlie-tca> It has 256MB ram. I haven't been able to. I can run Xubuntu on it, though
<charlie-tca> <Sertse> QUESTION: How does Xubuntu respond to claims that it is rather fat for an xfce distro, and thus misrepresents xfce? Many people draw conclusions on xfce from xubuntu. Xfce itself is rather light.
<charlie-tca> Thanks for asking that. We agree with it.
<charlie-tca> As a dirivative of Ubuntu, we rely on a number of applications from Ubuntu. This does cause some bloating for Xubuntu. We attempt to keep as many lightweight
<charlie-tca> applications as possible, though. In 9.10, installed from the desktop cd, you pull in OpenOffice.org. You can remove it, and in Lucid, it will not pull it in.
<charlie-tca> The bloat is a price we pay for staying a part of Ubuntu
<charlie-tca> <openweek2> QUESTION: The Acer Aspire One and early Moblin demo's were based on XFCE, but recently UNR/Gnome, plasma-netbook/KDE and Clutter/Moblin have taken the limelight. Are there plans for an XFCE/Xubuntu netbook variant?
<charlie-tca> I don't have an answer to this at this time.
<charlie-tca> I have a question about why the gnome desktop ran after Xubuntu was installed along side of Ubuntu.
<charlie-tca> You can install Ubuntu or Kubuntu or both, then install Xubuntu. This allows you to switch between the desktops and applications as you wish.
<charlie-tca> Sometimes, when you do this, as you log in, you must tell gdm what session you want to run. At the bottom of the login screen, there is a selector for xfce, gnome, kde
<charlie-tca> This normally is invisible until you tell gdm who is logging in.
<charlie-tca> There is also a setting to tell the system if you want gnome, kde, or xfce to be the default environment
<charlie-tca> <its_me> QUESTION: I am a new to Gnu/Linux, if Kernel, File system and Desktop is being developed by an independent communities. What exactly is ubuntu, Kubuntu or Xubuntu community is doing? Are they just combining all these components and giving it a new name?
<charlie-tca> Great question from a new Gnu/Linux user! In Windows, everything came from one place, basically, Microsoft.
<charlie-tca> In Linux, a desktop environment is built of many small applications. A distribution is built of many more applications, which may or may not include the desktop environment.
<charlie-tca> So, yes, Ubuntu, Kubuntu, and Xubuntu are combining many applications to make something easy to use.
<charlie-tca> without them, it could take you two or three or four weeks of running programs without a graphic environment to get what we give you.
<charlie-tca> <mhall119|work> QUESTION: Xubuntu seems to be trying to look the same as the default Gnome setup in Ubuntu, why not do your own style like Kubuntu does?
<charlie-tca> Glad you asked!
<charlie-tca> I could not tell you what the desktop in Gnome looks like in Ubuntu 9.10
<charlie-tca> I have not actually seen it. If it does look like Xubuntu, that was an accident on our part.
<charlie-tca> <Sertse> QUESTION: Does Xubuntu have any contacts with upstream? I remember there used to be an liason at one point.
<charlie-tca> Yes, we do maintain contacts with upstream. While we no longer have a liason in Xfce, we do talk to developers in Xfce daily, also with developers in Gnumeric, Exaile, and other upstream projects.
<charlie-tca> Well, that looks like enough questions for now. Hopefully, I answered all of them. If I missed yours, please ask it again.
<charlie-tca> As a dirivative of Ubuntu, we are not officially sponsored by Canonical as Ubuntu and Kubuntu are. Xubuntu receives no funding from Canonical.
<charlie-tca> All of the developers and team members are volunteers.
<charlie-tca> We report bugs found through launchpad. Brian Murray gave a great session on "Reporting Bugs" on Monday. If you missed that session, there are full logs of all the sessions maintained on the wiki.
<charlie-tca> Just go to the schedule, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/ , and click on the session you wish to review. I do much of the bug triage for Xubuntu, and most of our bugs in Xfce are forwarded upstream.
<charlie-tca> We do verify a number of the bugs reported to Xfce from other sources.
<charlie-tca> We work very close with upstream xfce, abiword and gnumeric bug teams to help resolve the bugs found. Once you report a bug, it goes through a process called bug triage.
<charlie-tca> You will find that I often triage the Xfce, Abiword, and Gnumeric bugs for this reason. I am also the bugsquad contact for these bugs.
<charlie-tca> We will work very closely to the Ubuntu bugsquad when triaging, and follow the guidelines set in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/HowToTriage. A very important idea in triaging for Xubuntu is that just because only one person had a failure, that does not make it invalid.
<charlie-tca> At this time, I would like to hit on some of the key points in Xubuntu 9.10, otherwise known as Karmic Koala.
<charlie-tca> Xubuntu now has Xfce 4.6.1, which included many bug fixes.
<charlie-tca> In work at Xfce is 4.8, which will have the menu editor. It is scheduled for final release April 18, which may be too late for Lucid, but could make the .1 upgrade
<charlie-tca> Xubuntu 9.10 includes the Exaile 0.3.0.x music player to make enjoying podcasts, streaming radio, audio books, and music library easier than ever before.
<charlie-tca> <mhall119|work> QUESTION: why was OpenOffice.org included now in 9.10, but going to be removed again in 10.04?
<charlie-tca> Good question! OpenOffice.org slipped passed the testers. It is not normally included in Xubuntu, due to the size.
<charlie-tca> It will be removed in future releases because it does not meet Xubuntu's requirements for lightweight applications.
<charlie-tca> <sebsebseb> QUESTIONS: Why does Xubuntu use  GDM,  rather than it's own Display Manager?  Also isn't really XFCE just a window manager, instead of being a desktop environment such as Gnome or KDE?  As for xubuntu-desktop it's just XFCE with some choosen apps right? If so that's probably why there isn't a XFCEDM, or whatever it would be called, because XDM already exists.
<charlie-tca> Thanks for asking, sebsebseb
<charlie-tca> Xubuntu uses GDM because it is included in Ubuntu. We are a small team, and if Ubuntu has an application that works for us, we can have our developers work on other, more important tasks.
<charlie-tca> <mhall119|work> QUESTION: What's going on with XFCE's settings backend?  Is it going to use the same as Gnome?
<charlie-tca> Before I answer this, let me step back a minute
<charlie-tca> I want to touch on the names we use for a minute. Xubuntu uses many applications to maintain lightweight, usable environment.
<charlie-tca> Whether that application contains the name KDE, Gnome, Xfce, Lxde, etc, does not really come into the decision making process.
<charlie-tca> We are looking for applications that work the best for Xubuntu. If the name mattered, most applications won't work. If the name doesn't matter, many applications will work.
<charlie-tca> GDM is Gnome Display Manager. We use it for a log-in screen. It works for that.
<charlie-tca> Now back to mhall119|work question. We aren't using Gnome's backend. We do use the parts that work for us.
<charlie-tca> Does anyone know why was the name "Xubuntu - Lots of Kittens and Mice" given for this session? it does't seems to be related.
<charlie-tca> Let's tackle this one, even though it is not actually being asked.
<charlie-tca> Xfce's logo is a mouse. Xubuntu uses that mouse inside the "human circle of friendship" of Ubuntu. And, what good are mice without kittens?
<charlie-tca> The kittens chase the mice round and round
<charlie-tca> I want to thank all of you for being here.
<charlie-tca> If you want to join the *developer* team, there is #xubuntu-devel and there is also the developer mailing list, https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/xubuntu-devel
* jcastro changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to Ubuntu Open Week! https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek (changes made, please check regularly) || Session: How to Run Ubuntu + 1  || All questions go in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<jcastro> thanks a bunch charlie-tca!
<charlie-tca> As part of one of the best, fastest growing distributions available, we welcome anyone who would like to assist in development, testing, and bug triage!
<jcastro> ok we'll give it a minute and then I will start the next session, how to run Ubuntu+1 "aka the development release"
<jcastro> ok
<jcastro> thanks for coming to my session, let's begin!
<jcastro> First off, I'd like to introduce myself. My name is Jorge Castro and I work on the Ubuntu Community team doing upstream developer relations. I've been using Ubuntu since 4.10 (the Warty Warthog) and Debian for many years before that.
<jcastro> I've spent a great deal of time running developmental releases and things that generally break your computer, so I thought I would share this information with people, since I've been in the situation many times where I have turned my computer until a pile of molten slag.
<jcastro> I've written up some parts, we'll get through that - then we'll open up it up for some questions.
<jcastro> Recently I've noticed more and testers using the Ubuntu developmental release, what lot's of people call "Ubuntu+1". Currently Ubuntu+1 is the lucid "lucid lynx".
<jcastro> This is really good
<jcastro> because more testing is always needed
<jcastro> However just because you are testing doesn't mean you want your OS to stab you in the face.
<jcastro> Running +1 back in the old days was relatively easy because most of the users were already experienced with The Debian System(tm) and how it worked. However as more and more people started using Ubuntu and the promise of new bling crept around the corner more and more people started using it, and breaking it, so I thought I'd have a session on how to not blow up your computer.
<jcastro> First off
<jcastro> there are some guides out there already!
<jcastro> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/UsingDevelopmentReleases
<jcastro> and more recently http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1286309
<jcastro> however I find that the best method is what you learn by sometimes painful experience!
<jcastro> Now, there are many ways Ubuntu developers run their development release. Some prefer apt-get, some do aptitude. I will be discussing the way I do it because I've managed to stay out of trouble for three releases in a row! Also, even if you use different tools the concepts I talk about will apply.
<jcastro> (some use synaptic, etc.)
<jcastro> So first off, let's talk about why you WOULDN'T want to run a a dev release like lucid
<jcastro> a) You need to get work done
<jcastro> and b) Computer downtime or dataloss isn't an option
<jcastro> so, for example I know many ubuntu developers stick to a stable release
<jcastro> and use pbuilder or a VM to test their packages
<jcastro> some people have multiple machines
<jcastro> I personally always keep my laptop on a stable release until beta-ish
<jcastro> but on my desktop I let it rip with the brokeness.
<jcastro> either way, you should ensure that your data is backed up and safe
<jcastro> Of course, if you use your computers for work I recommend using VMs or spare hardware
<jcastro> however
<jcastro> if you're a sysadmin or deploy ubuntu
<jcastro> setting aside spare hardware to help us test ubuntu would  be most appreciated!
<jcastro> for most people, Virtual Machines will do the trick
<jcastro> unless you want to test hardware
<jcastro> so for example, if you have an infamous broadcom wireless card that doesn't work well, you might have problems
<jcastro> ok
<jcastro> so I am going to go through the steps that I take to run the release
<jcastro> the first step is to actually run it. :D
<jcastro> this is accomplished by downloading one of the alpha CDs, a daily CD, or upgradiing in place
<jcastro> If you download a new CD, you want to use something like a mirror or zsync to save bandwidth
<jcastro> if you upgrade in place I recommend "update-manager -d"
<jcastro> (old school fans, replacing "karmic" with "lucid" in your sources.list still works)
<jcastro> there are three major things you need to check before you upgrade
<jcastro> (and that goes for the subsequent daily upgrades)
<jcastro> here are the sources I check: http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/testing/lucid_probs.html
<jcastro> this one is handy
<jcastro> it tells you what's broken in the archive right now
<jcastro> so if you see important-looking things in here, you might want to wait
<jcastro> since it's the beginning of lucid it's not surprising to see kernel packages and stuff in there
<jcastro> the second thing to check is the -changes mailing list
<jcastro> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/lucid-changes
<jcastro> which has the upload changelogs
<jcastro> here's an example
<jcastro> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/lucid-changes/2009-November/000177.html
<jcastro> (protip, the RSS feeds for these packages are here: http://feeds.ubuntu-nl.org/UbuntuChanges )
<jcastro> as you run the dev release you'll start to learn how to read changelogs
<jcastro> and why that's important
<jcastro> usually if you see a package you'll start to learn how things work
<jcastro> so for example if you see "New upstream release" in a small gnome game or something, it'll be safe
<jcastro> but if it's a bunch of kernel packages and a changelog miles long, that might be worrisome
<jcastro> after a while you'll learn about how packages interact with each other
<jcastro> and then the third thing I check is the dev forum: http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=377here
<jcastro> By now if someone has a problem and can't figure it out
<jcastro> it might be posted here
<jcastro> With all three of those sources you should have a good idea how +1 is for the moment
<jcastro> remember that uploads happen all the time
<jcastro> so at any given point the archive is in a different state
<jcastro> I personally upgrade twice a day
<jcastro> once in the morning, and in the afternoon
<jcastro> and before each of those I check all three of those, just to be sure
<jcastro> ok, after that you decide "ok this looks safe enough"
<jcastro> or "no way, that's crazy"
<jcastro> that's when I do the update step: sudo apt-get update
<jcastro> a quick thing here
<jcastro> a bunch of people just think they can run +1 and have update manager just fire off daily and they can click a button and be happy
<jcastro> this probably will lead to tears
<jcastro> in fact, if you're not comfortable with apt-get (or aptitude if you use that) and dpkg itself you can easily paint yourself into a corner
<jcastro> so ensure that you read the man pages and documentation on those tools
<jcastro> ok
<jcastro> after the update you want to go ahead and do the upgrade
<jcastro> which is: sudo apt-get upgrade
<jcastro> now, here is where everyone gets confused
<jcastro> (if you've been ignoring the whole session this is the important part)
<jcastro> you always need to remember in the back of your head that the  archive is always changing in a dev release
<jcastro> and things are connected in all sorts of ways
<jcastro> so for example, when calc uploads openoffice.org, it's a TON of packages
<jcastro> and sometimes it takes a while for things to build
<jcastro> so for large packages sometimes chunks land right away
<jcastro> sometimes not
<jcastro> plus you have to wait for the mirrors to propagate, etc.
<jcastro> so, in order to protect you
<jcastro> apt says "well, he's missing some parts, let me hold back these packages so it doesn't break"
<jcastro> when this happens apt tells you "the following packages have been held back:" and then a list of stuff
<jcastro> when this happens to me I let it hold those packages back
<jcastro> and let the upgrade continue
<jcastro> if I see a package held back over the course of a few days then I try to seperately apt-get installing them
<jcastro> so, let's say openoffice.org-awesomeness is held back
<jcastro> because the rest of OOo is building
<jcastro> in a few days I do "sudo apt-get install openoffice.org-awesomness"
<jcastro> now I get more detail
<jcastro> usually if it hasn't worked itself out it's because something significant has changed
<jcastro> sometimes it looks scary
<jcastro> it might say "library3 will be REMOVED, library4 will be installed" or something like that
<jcastro> so this means that someone has updated the libraries
<jcastro> so this is fine
<jcastro> and I just let it finish and it does the upgrade
<jcastro> sometimes a package is going through what we call a transition
<jcastro> so let's say program A used to use library A, but now wants to use library B.
<jcastro> this will cause it to be held back
<jcastro> so you'll have to go back and work it  out
<jcastro> however, since you've read the changelogs I mentioned above
<jcastro> usually there should be no surprise
<jcastro> the maintainer will put in the log something like "transitioning this to libfoo" or something
<jcastro> there will also be announcements for major things on the development list
<jcastro> particularly with sensitive things like boot stuff
<jcastro> and since you also check the forums before you upgrade (right?) you'll see the scattered bodies of people who have not read the changelogs. :D
<jcastro> one thing I do NOT recommend
<jcastro> is just do sudo apt-get dist-upgrade
<jcastro> this is the cause of many problems
<jcastro> in fact, you'll see people posting this all over the internet
<jcastro> the "problem" with dist-upgrading blindly is that it does what it's designed to do
<jcastro> it reads the package lists of things that are supposed to be installed
<jcastro> and it doesn't really account for the archive changing
<jcastro> so it thinks "well, he said he wanted openoffice.org upgraded, but it's missing openoffice.org-awesome, however, I can't stand the package system being in an unknown state, so let's be safe an remove openoffice.org entirely"
<jcastro> this is how people end up removing half their GUI or weird things like that
<jcastro> so, remember dist-upgrade is for moving from stable release to stable release
<jcastro> if the archive is being uploaded to and dependencies are changing, this will doom you
<jcastro> so remember, just do a normal "upgrade"
<jcastro> and if something is held back, let it sit there a bit
<jcastro> and it will usually work itself out over the next few hours or days
<jcastro> any questions on this so far?
<jcastro> I want to make sure everyone is clear about the dist-upgrade
<jcastro> (ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat)
<jcastro> wow, no questions, awesome
<jcastro> ok
<jcastro> so, after you've done the upgrade, you're not done!
<jcastro> depending on what you upgraded you might need to do things
<jcastro> so for example if you have firefox open and firefox upgrades we tell you to restart firefox (just in case)
<jcastro> also, if you get a new kernel you'll need to reboot
<jcastro> if you get a new GNOME or KDE you'll want to log out and back in
<jcastro> while stable releases run great for days and days
<jcastro> during the devel release you'll want to make sure you're running the latest thing and given the program a chance to run
<jcastro> otherwise your bugs will be worthless
<jcastro> Question: where can we get the Lucid ISO? or do we have to install Karmic and go from there?
<jcastro> there are no ISOs at this point, you'll have to upgrade from karmic
<jcastro> ok, some other pointers
<jcastro> you can get a feel for what's going on depending on what week it is
<jcastro> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LucidReleaseSchedule
<jcastro> so for example
<jcastro> right now we're syncing with debian
<jcastro> and UDS hasn't happened yet
<jcastro> so there will be a bunch of syncs
<jcastro> also, if you look at all the freezes on the schedule you can also figure out how safe the archive will be
<jcastro> so, the week before feature freeze it's likely to be very busy
<jcastro> and during UDS week it's likely slowed down
<jcastro> I know some people who wait for a certain point
<jcastro> that's up to you
<jcastro> remember once you are running lucid when you update you're up to date
<jcastro> so if you get a Beta, and you do your updates
<jcastro> you won't need to download and reinstall RC
<jcastro> Question: We are syncing from testing for lucid, I think? How do you feel this would affect development, and those running it?
<jcastro> I think this will mean Lucid will have less bugs overall
<jcastro> and be a less bumpy ride
<jcastro> (but not right now, bunch of syncs happening)
<jcastro> unless you seriously want the crack, I don't recommend using lucid until at least alpha 1
<jcastro> right now the toolchain and the lower bits are settling
<jcastro> and we haven't had UDS yet so it's just syncing
<jcastro> ok
<jcastro> let's talk about some other common problems
<jcastro> one you'll see a bunch is when you use a slow mirror
<jcastro> and apt spits out 404 errors
<jcastro> usually if you're using an official mirror trying again will round robin to another one and you'll get the packages
<jcastro> also, sometimes mirrors sync with others wrong
<jcastro> so it will rsync the Packages files and it just so happens that you want to upgrade and the mirror hasn't gotten the actual packages yet
<jcastro> this happens with large packages like OOO or eclipse or something
<jcastro> one thing I don't recommend (but people do) is to hammer the official archive mirrors over and over
<jcastro> also, if you have a bunch of machines, consider using squid or something to save bandwidth and load on the mirrors
<jcastro> because the archive updates ALOT
<jcastro> hundreds of megs a day sometimes
<jcastro> Any more questions?
<jcastro> Ok
<jcastro> so, remember that the reason to use +1 is to get testing
<jcastro> so it's important to make sure you report good bugs
<jcastro> Sometimes you don't know if something is a real bug
<jcastro> or if someone just broke something and is fixing it
<jcastro> when people get lost they post on the lucid forum
<jcastro> this is totally /fine/ and encouraged!
<jcastro> in fact some people flesh out bugs before they report them
<jcastro> "Is anyone else seeing this or is it just me?" threads can save from a bunch of us filing the same stupid bug in launchpad
<jcastro> causing the QA follks to have to go through dupes, etc.
<jcastro> so getting your ducks in a row before you report a bug can be very efficient.
<jcastro> Question: could you define "UDS" and "toolchain" and possibly tell us what Squid is?
<jcastro> Sure!
<jcastro> UDS is the ubuntu development summit, where we figure out what Lucid will be like
<jcastro> since Lucid will be a long term support release that's kind of obvious
<jcastro> "toolchain" are the bits that you build a distro on
<jcastro> so your compilers, guts, system level things
<jcastro> squid is a caching proxy, which will cache debs for you
<jcastro> there are a bunch of tools that can do that
<jcastro> if you deploy hundreds of machines you know what that is
<jcastro> if you don't understand some of the terms I'm talking about then for sure you should be trying this in a virtual machine instead of real hardware
<jcastro> after you've broken yourself a bunch of times you'll know when you're ready to run it full time. :D
<jcastro> Question: When does the development of the next release of Ubuntu start? Right after one is released
<jcastro> usually
<jcastro> right now we're scheduling sessions for UDS
<jcastro> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UDS-L
<jcastro> all the information you need is linked from there
<jcastro> http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-l/ has the schedule
<jcastro> there will be icecast streams so you can follow along
<jcastro> and all the blueprints and documents are all available
<jcastro> I also plan to post many videos this time around!
<jcastro> Question: what are the development goals for Lucid?
<jcastro> that's what we do at UDS, figure those out
<jcastro> however Lucid is LTS so we already know certain things
<jcastro> like we'll be more conservative on things
<jcastro> and we'll concentrate on bug fixes all cycle
<jcastro> some people might call that boring
<jcastro> but rock solid is never boring. :D
<jcastro> Question: How does one join the development of Ubuntu? Beta testing is, of course, there; but what about main development?
<jcastro> Oh man, that session was yesterday!
<jcastro> but don't worry
<jcastro> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/openweekKarmic/IntroDeveloper
<jcastro> start here
<jcastro> that should have everything you need to get started
<jcastro>  QUESTION: Can I upgrade in place by editing /etc/apt/sources.list changing karmic to lucid?
<jcastro> Yep
<jcastro> that's how I used to do it
<jcastro> lately I get lazy and just do update-manager -d
<jcastro> also, this reminds me
<jcastro> if you have a bunch of PPAs or something in your sources.list you'll want to comment them out before an upgrade
<jcastro> also, if you're running a "mongrel" system with a bunch of PPAs, self made debs
<jcastro> and general crack
<jcastro> consider a clean install
<jcastro> instead of reporting bugs with all sorts of brokeness
<jcastro> ok that's all I have time for
<jcastro> I hope you guys are ready for Mark Shuttleworth!
<jcastro> Ok I've been informed that mark is having power supply problems
<jcastro> but it's getting sorted, please bear with us
* jcastro changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to Ubuntu Open Week! https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek (changes made, please check regularly) || Session: Ask Mark - Mark Shuttleworth || All questions go in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<jcastro> While mark sorts out his PC
<jcastro> remember to put your questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<jcastro> and akgraner and myself will paste them in
<jcastro> please try to have a good question, if it's easily googleable we'll likely skip it
<jcastro> welcome mark!
<sabdfl> hello all
<jcastro> sabdfl, akgraner and I will paste questions
<sabdfl> thanks jorge - happy to be here! hi amber
<jcastro> so just say "next" when you are ready!
<sabdfl> fire away
<jcastro> feel free to kick it off!
<jcastro> QUESTION: What's your opinion of ChromeOS?
<sabdfl> there's a lot of concern in the desktop environment groups (Gnome, KDE) that Chrome will be bad for desktop linux, but i think it will be very good
<sabdfl> one of the toughest challenges for us in desktop linux is hardware compatibility
<sabdfl> and ChromeOS gives PC manufacturers *another* good reason to invest in Linux compatibility for their peripherals
<sabdfl> same goes for Intel's Moblin
<sabdfl> i'm sure there are PC manufacturers now trying to figure out how to deliver Chrome. Since they don't know which peripherals and devices they will use, they are telling their suppliers "make sure it does linux" for *all* devices
<sabdfl> that's got to be good for us too
<sabdfl> next
<akgraner> <openweek7> QUESTION: We, at least in the US, have seen Apple's "I'm a Mac and I'm a PC" ads. We've seen Microsoft's "Windows 7 was my idea" ads.  When will we see Canonical's Ubuntu ads?
<sabdfl> we do advertise, but mostly to the corporate market
<sabdfl> i can picture our equivalent, though
<sabdfl> it would feature a poodle for the mac
<sabdfl> next
<jcastro> QUESTION: Hi from Saint Petersburg, Mark. Ubuntu is one of the first distributions to adopt 2.6.31 kernel, but many users discovered a lot of troubles with it - sound issues, disk issues, filesystem issues, usb issues.  How could this happen?
<sabdfl> i don't think there are substantially more issues with 2.6.31 than with .28
<sabdfl> but there are likely *different* issues
<sabdfl> you don't notice the new things that work (especially if you don't have those devices)
<sabdfl> but you definitely do notice regressions
<sabdfl> i hope people tested the milestones, and reported bugs
<sabdfl> for Lucid, we'll freeze the kernel earlier and call for more testing
<sabdfl> and have more time to address issues
<sabdfl> i believe .32 has a bunch of new stuff but .33 is supposed to be quite stable
<sabdfl> next
<akgraner> <Jesi> Question: Ubuntu has come along way, it's great and I'm pretty sure it's only going to get better, but no matter how great it becomes, if people don't know about it, we have a great grassroots effort but what about marketing?
<sabdfl> our marketing depends mostly on passionate technologists - you!
<sabdfl> that's why the LoCo teams, and personal advocacy from our users, are so important
<sabdfl> it's why we ask people to share the CD they receive so as many people as possible can get it
<sabdfl> it doesn't make economic sense to do mass marketing for us now
<sabdfl> if it does in future, we'll do it
<sabdfl> next
<jcastro> Question: What's going to happen with compiz and gnome shell?
<sabdfl> good question
<sabdfl> the gnome shell work is very interesting
<sabdfl> i think mutter has a long way to go before it supports everything that compiz does
<sabdfl> but i'm confident that mutter will become a great window manager in due course
<sabdfl> i saw today that gnome shell has been pushed back six months, so there is more time to get it right
<sabdfl> next
<akgraner> <jsgotangco> QUESTION: Hi Mark, so when will Asia have a taste of UDS? I'm pretty sure the region is a huge market for you at the moment, but it seems the collaborative development of Ubuntu is focusing solely on EU and the continental US. Lots of developers here too. Thanks.
<sabdfl> i would love to do a UDS in asia
<sabdfl> perhaps you could organise an online commitment roll, where developers can commit to coming if we have, say the 10.10 UDS there, or the 11.04 UDS there
<sabdfl> i like how debconf is put to community competition between cities
<sabdfl> if you want to make the case for UDS in asia, let us know which city and which developers would actually come
<sabdfl> next
<jcastro> QUESTION: What do you think can or should be done to encourage the spread of LoCo's throughout the world? Does the list of LoCo's look to you like it's representative of the size of the Ubuntu market, or user base?
<sabdfl> (btw, the maestro 4k in Toulouse has proposed that city for the next UDS and it's being seriously considered because he has such a great track record in bringing the community together)
<sabdfl> wow, good question
<sabdfl> i haven't seen the LoCo list for a while so can't comment
<sabdfl> Jono would be the best person to ask
<sabdfl> i saw a comment on a bug today, suggesting ReCo's for Regional Community, and CiCo's for City Community
<sabdfl> so, I think that network will grow in scale and complexity
<sabdfl> if you care about this, please do dive in and help with the LoCo Council and general organisation
<jono> indeed, feel free to email me
<sabdfl> the most important thing is figuring out how to keep LoCo's healthy
<jono> jono AT ubuntu dot com
<sabdfl> they have no trouble starting
<sabdfl> but we have trouble knowing if they are active, healthy, fun and positive
<sabdfl> next
<akgraner> <rrnwexec> QUESTION: Mark, do you have any specific advice on how to grow the market for Ubuntu? What's holding us back from grabbing 10% of the market in one year's time?
<sabdfl> rrnwexec: hardware compatibility, software solutions, economics
<sabdfl> but all three are changing for the better
<sabdfl> hardware compat is improving because lots of PC manufacturers are starting to realise how much people love ubuntu
<sabdfl> and it's low cost for them too
<sabdfl> software solutions - more and more ISV's are starting to certify Ubuntu, but we are still a long way behind red hat and suse in that regard
<sabdfl> we have to stay friendly to both free and proprietary software solutions providers, that's important
<sabdfl> flash imrpved a lot recently, there's more to be done
<sabdfl> and economics... win xp was a diving catch for microsoft
<sabdfl> they had to keep it alive much longer than planned
<sabdfl> cost them a fortune
<sabdfl> but they left it out there as a cheap, familiar solution
<sabdfl> now, with win7, i think the economics are back in our favour
<sabdfl> next
<jcastro> QUESTION: Will Canonical ever start branding hardware as "Ubuntu Compatible"?
<sabdfl> definitely, if we ever start making hardware, which is not in the plan :-)
<sabdfl> but we do see more and more manufacturers putting the ubuntu logo on their boxes
<sabdfl> which is *great*
<sabdfl> next
<akgraner> <sebsebseb> QUESTION:  Have you already got any ideas for what Ubuntu 10.10  might be called, if so what?
<jcastro> QUESTION: a lot of people still buy their computer software from a "brick and mortar" store, does Canonical have any plans to work with these stores to distribute Ubuntu, maybe for $5 ?
<jcastro> Sorry!
<sabdfl> sebsebseb: patience ;-)
<sabdfl> on the distribution front, we see people doing that today
<sabdfl> we don't have an active program
<sabdfl> though we do sell CD's in bulk for like $1 per CD so people could do that
<sabdfl> if you think it would work, see if you can get some brick and mortar stores to buy sets of 100 CD's and offer them
<sabdfl> i would suggest you offer the CD together with an install service (for more than $5) to make it worth the store's time
<sabdfl> next
<akgraner> <rrnwexec> QUESTION: Do you have any specific plans to encourage non-technical and non developer types to contribute to the project? (Translations and documentation exempt from this question.)
<sabdfl> we do have the marketing team
<sabdfl> and locos and advocacy require organisational skill, more than technical skill
<sabdfl> there's room for people of all talents, that's something we care a lot about in Ubuntu
<sabdfl> this is NOT just for developers, and NOT for fundamentalists
<sabdfl> this is for people who care about moving to a better technology world
<sabdfl> whatever background, gender, or colour they have
<sabdfl> next
<jcastro> QUESTION: a lot of hardware-support issues (with regards to the linux kernel and as such with Ubuntu) is depending on the openess and cooperation from/with hardware vendors. How do you see hardware support in the future and what can we (in the broadest sense of the word) do to get more vendors to open up their specs and/or develop their own kernel drivers?
<sabdfl> we have to demonstrate *business success* for them
<sabdfl> initially, nost of them don't understand the open model
<sabdfl> that doesn't mean they are stupid
<sabdfl> it's just unfamiliar
<sabdfl> it's better to engage with them on whatever terms they initially understand best
<sabdfl> and then show how they win deals and ship *volume*
<sabdfl> that industry only makes money in volume, their margins are too tight
<sabdfl> the enthusiast market loves to tell hardware companies to do linux, but then it doesn't buy their stuff
<sabdfl> "because they picked the wrong distro" or "that's an old version"
<sabdfl> well, there's no incentive there for the hardware companies to stick around and figure it out
<sabdfl> so, we have to engage with them, even if it starts with proprietary drivers, and show them money
<sabdfl> then we can move them to free software
<sabdfl> next
<akgraner> rrnwexec> QUESTION: How is Ayatana coming along? Are you still energized by it? Is it still on the high priority list? (lots of Ayatana questions)
<sabdfl> i love that part of the project and spend a few hours on it every day (a lot of time for me)
<sabdfl> there's a great and growing team
<sabdfl> they really care about the desktop experience, and they are not fundamentalist about GNOME or KDE, they want *both* to get better
<sabdfl> i like how it's going, though it's taking longer than i would like to get a really effective machine running
<sabdfl> if you liked the notifications bits, and the messaging menu, you will love lucid
<sabdfl> we are going to make sure that all works perfectly across all of main and universe
<sabdfl> we'll neaten the panel up a lot
<sabdfl> and if you like the UNR, that's their design work too
<sabdfl> next
<jcastro> QUESTION: Why you don't use identi.ca and very-very seldom twittering? The same thing with blogging - some posts really very instresting. You, probably, have not enough time for such things, but please - it would be great to read your tweets/dents/posts as often as possible.
<sabdfl> thanks for the kudos!
<sabdfl> i should blog more often
<sabdfl> my twitter account is only used by my evil identical twin for callous and coarse thoughts ;-)
<sabdfl> next
<akgraner> <mhall119|work> QUESTION: you can already buy desktops and laptops with Ubuntu installed from several vendor's online stores.  When do you think we will see them in brick and mortar stores, especially running as a demo?
<sabdfl> getting Linux right at retail is a very serious challenge for us
<sabdfl> we are working on it with a big manufacturer
<sabdfl> but it's not easy and i can't promise it will happen soon
<sabdfl> it failed at walmart and a few other large scale attempts
<sabdfl> we don't want to screw it up
<sabdfl> next
<jcastro> QUESTION: You stated at the last UbuntuOpenWeek that the economic problems might create good opportunities for GNU/Linux and Ubuntu. Since then, have you already found concrete evidence to support this prediction?
<sabdfl> yes - i was at an event for open source company CEO's last month
<sabdfl> everyone agreed this had been their best year ever
<sabdfl> people got a fright and had to look hard at how they do IT
<sabdfl> and open source was a common answer
<sabdfl> next
<akgraner> <rrnwexec> QUESTION: Would you consider a short tour of the most active LoCo's to get some buzz and energy in the far outposts, or at least the ones that offer to take you out for beers ;)
<sabdfl> i generally do hang out with LoCo's in the places i go
<sabdfl> but it hasn't been such a creative list of late
<sabdfl> next year i expect to move on from London
<sabdfl> so perhaps i'll travel to more interesting places then
<sabdfl> and would love to hang out with LoCo's
<sabdfl> next
<jcastro> QUESTION: when and how do you see Canonical making a profit?
<sabdfl> from services, and in due course.
<sabdfl> to a certain extent, we choose to expand faster than our revenue base
<sabdfl> because we want to deliver a great solution across desktop, netbook *and* server
<sabdfl> so we are starting three businesses in one
<sabdfl> which is harder than three times one :-)
<sabdfl> if we wanted to, we could scale back our goals and break even sooner
<sabdfl> but i worry that we are the main hope of genuinely free free software
<sabdfl> and i want to deliver that everywhere
<sabdfl> next
<akgraner> <MarkDude> QUESTION how important is having a diverse group of contributors (women & minority folks) to solving Bug #1?
<sabdfl> not especially, but it makes the project more interesting
<sabdfl> next
<jcastro> QUESTION: Is there anything that the community isn't doing well enough that you like it to see people do better?
<sabdfl> wow
<sabdfl> the community is so amazing it's hard to know what else one could ask for
<sabdfl> i'd like to see more engagement in bug triage and qa
<sabdfl> on the bug front, passing bugs upstream is really important
<sabdfl> a lot of upstreams don't see bug reports unless we pass them upstream
<sabdfl> because most people file bugs against the distro, not the upstream
<sabdfl> that would help
<sabdfl> next
<jcastro> (talk to me later about upstreaming bugs folks  -ed.)
<akgraner> <jbicha> QUESTION: do you foresee Canonical becoming a publicly traded company?
<sabdfl> if that's the right thing for us, sure
<sabdfl> next
<jcastro> QUESTION: Have you ever considered a large Ubuntu conference for the public? Would you consider doing it in the interest of getting the word out to a broader audience? (I'm thinking about something that has the reach and buzz of MacWorld San Francisco).
<sabdfl> we did Ubuntu Live a few years back with O'Reilly
<sabdfl> it was too soon, we didn't have enough people coming
<sabdfl> sooner or later, someone will do an event, and we'll support it
<sabdfl> next
<akgraner> <willwill> QUESTION: I see that Ubuntu is being loaded with to-be moneymaker such as One, SwCenter. Why not "Ubuntu Enterprise" like Redhat & SUSE did?
<sabdfl> well, there are two elements to the Enterprise Edition strategy as pursued by Red Hat and SUSE that I don't like
<sabdfl> first, you have to tell people they can't use the Enterprise Edition unless they pay for it
<sabdfl> efectively, you *have* to pay to use RHEL and SLES
<sabdfl> i want to make sure that Ubuntu can be used in rich and poor environments
<sabdfl> it costs me nothing if a guy in Bangladesh gives his copy of Ubuntu to someone else to install
<sabdfl> so i don't expect to be paid for it
<sabdfl> but we offer services to companies that want them, and can afford them, to fund the platform
<sabdfl> so, Ubuntu *is* enterprise quality
<sabdfl> but we don't make people "pay for the Enterprise version"
<sabdfl> the second thing is about quality
<sabdfl> the "Enterprise Version" strategy usually involves having a Community Version which is described as low quality, and and Enterprise Version (paid) that is not
<sabdfl> if you meet Red Hat folks at an exhibition and ask about using Fedora, you'll know what I mean
<sabdfl> i want to do high quality releases
<sabdfl> so our non-LTS releases get high quality maintenance and updates
<sabdfl> and LTS get those, but for longer
<sabdfl> there are some other differences
<sabdfl> but you can, and people do, deploy non-LTS releases in serious production environments
<sabdfl> and that's wonderful
<sabdfl> so, we won't go down that route
<sabdfl> next question
<jcastro> QUESTION: What are your thoughts on "Linux" as a brand? Is the term still meaningful, compelling? Do you think it's necessary to co-brand Ubuntu to always include the term "Linux"?
<sabdfl> no, i don't think so
<sabdfl> of course, the Linux kernel is an essential ingredient
<sabdfl> but it;'s just one part of a huge and complex system
<sabdfl> and you may be right if you think that emphasising Linux gives too much credit and causes confusion
<sabdfl> next
<akgraner> <SoftwareExplorer> Question: What's your average day like?
<sabdfl> long
<sabdfl> i try to be up and exercising by 7, email at 8, office at 9 till 7, then home
<sabdfl> calls in the evening, lots of email
<sabdfl> not exactly james bond
<sabdfl> that whole billionaire cosmonaut bachelor thing is overrated
<sabdfl> next
<jcastro> QUESTION: Do you have a linux phone (such as android or openmoko)? :)
<sabdfl> nope. symbian
<sabdfl> next
<akgraner> <matt_2048> QUESTION: to what extent do you see Lucid as a critical release, especially for the home user who may be used to a longer upgrade cycle?
<sabdfl> lucid is critical for us, yes
<sabdfl> we're working harder than ever on the details of the plan
<sabdfl> we will need a lot of support from the community and from upstreams to make it *amazing*
<sabdfl> next
<akgraner> <rrnwexec> QUESTION: Did you attend (or hear about) any great release parties this time around? And, do you feel that Release Parties are a good marketing tool?
<sabdfl> release parties are for us to celebrate our work together, i don't think of them as marketing
<sabdfl> i go to the London one, usually that's where I am at release time
<sabdfl> this one was great, in the west end
<sabdfl> next
<jcastro> QUESTION: What is your next world-changing idea, now that the Ubuntu project is well on its way to fixing Bug #1?
<sabdfl> if we get Ubuntu to the point of self-funding growth, i will stay involved and use it to explore lots of interesting ideas
<sabdfl> an OS is an amazing basis for interests in just about any part of technology
<sabdfl> robotics? we got it. servers and cloud? we got it. consumer electronics? we got it
<sabdfl> i picked this project because *if* it works, it should keep me out of trouble for a long time
<sabdfl> by trouble, i mean space ;-)
<sabdfl> next
<jcastro> QUESTION: Don't you think that Ubuntu releases too often? Linus Torvalds talked about a yearly release as a good compromise.
<sabdfl> i didn't think linus did compromise ;-)
<sabdfl> next
<akgraner> <Jesi> Question: You say you have marketing in the corporate sector,  and Ubuntu is starting to do great things with cloud computing and servers, but what about "Linux or Human Beings"? I thought the focus of Ubuntu was the average, person, the desktop user, I think it's great you provide a server set up as well, but will Ubuntu live up to it's promise of empowering people,  using technology to create a brighter future?
<sabdfl> that was about marketing, which is expensive
<sabdfl> we do focus on the desktop case, for the home user, but we don't run big marketing campaigns
<sabdfl> as i said there, our marketing for consumers is entirely advocacy and word of mouth
<sabdfl> it depends on YOU to get the word out
<sabdfl> if you think it needs marketing, start talking and helping people learn about it
<sabdfl> next
<jcastro> <sebsebseb> QUESTION:  If you don't mind answering,  what kind of  things do you spend your money on,  other than funding Canonical and the space visits (which people like mentioning in Ubuntu articles)
<akgraner> <speel> QUESTION: Since Ubuntu is becoming popular do you find more and more people thinking that Ubuntu IS linux?
<akgraner> sorry
<sabdfl> np
<sabdfl> i don't spend a lot on myself, relatively speaking
<sabdfl> i have a plane, which is a big luxury
<sabdfl> but i don't live a particularly lavish lifestyle
<sabdfl> yet
<sabdfl> a lot of people think Google IS the Internet :-)
<sabdfl> i don't worry about that. people figure stuff out over time, as needed
<sabdfl> if people think their first distro *is* linux, that's OK till they need to know more
<sabdfl> at which point someone will certainly, helpfully, point it out to them
<sabdfl> next
<jcastro> QUESTION: Have you considered tracking Bug #1 with more numeric precision, and publishing the results? I would personally like to see the uptick of Ubuntu user stats displayed very prominently. I was close enough to Redmond WA a few years back to see/feel the fear that erupted when Firefox began doing that.
<sabdfl> it's so hard to quantify
<sabdfl> i don't want to get worked up about bad statistics, either way
<sabdfl> we just focus on making ubuntu wonderful, and let nature do the rest
<sabdfl> next
<akgraner> <openweek2> QUESTION: How do you envision Ubuntu on the netbook market for the coming years? Do you have a strategy?
<sabdfl> nope. nossir. no strategy at all.
<sabdfl> we are working on both Moblin and UNR versions
<sabdfl> Dell just launched the Moblin Developer netbook, which is cool
<sabdfl> next
<jcastro> QUESTION:  Where is Ubuntu actually heading?  It seems at the moment that it is on the verge of becoming a lot more Windows user friendly. For example plans for the Ubuntu Software Centre: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SoftwareCenter
<sabdfl> we have to be friendly to established platforms
<sabdfl> the software centre is going to rock! making it easier for people to find the goodness that's already there
<sabdfl> as for the long term... it's a work in progress
<sabdfl> i have good plans for lucid, and rough plans for lucid+1, but it's tough to be detailed beyond that
<sabdfl> next
<akgraner> <artir> QUESTION: New artwork for Lucid?
<sabdfl> new window decorations
<sabdfl> some new icons for the panel indicators
<sabdfl> some new styling on boot and login
<sabdfl> no new gtk theme
<sabdfl> next
<jcastro> QUESTION: I worked quite hard to write a patch fixing a11y issues in NotifyOsd - that were mentioned in ayatana's ML and, i must say, ignored, and a few months later, still no news. Whats the point of open source if there is no way to contribute outside of canonical?
<sabdfl> post again to the ayatana list and i'll ask the team to follow up
<sabdfl> if you changed the experience, then it might not have been considered because those changes were too extreme
<sabdfl> next
<akgraner> <nameiner> QUESTION: What is your favorite app?
<sabdfl> firefox
<sabdfl> next
<jcastro> Question: How do you see touchscreen and multitouch being integrated into the Ubuntu OS, and what tricks might be part of it that will do something that the competition won't do?
<sabdfl> we don't have good enough plans on that front, i haven't thought about it, and i should have. sorry!
<sabdfl> next
<jcastro> QUESTION: Is Canonical going to try and get Ubuntu (and Edubuntu) into schools, the way Microsoft and Apple did to gain their mindshare?
<jcastro> (need more questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat please)
<sabdfl> Ubuntu is already hugely popular in schools
<sabdfl> Spain, Macedonia, Greece and others all have active deployments
<sabdfl> i don't know more
<sabdfl> we don't have a business model for Ubuntu in schools, which limits what we can invest there
<sabdfl> but i'm delighted that it's a great base for the work of others in that sector
<sabdfl> next
<akgraner> <finux> Question Mark > With the trend of cross-platform hacking attacks against systems connected to the Internet, what do you think the biggest challenge your security team will see in the next three years, and do you think that maybe a united front from all software vendors is needed.  Like recently with the null prefix attack against SSL/TLS which was cross platform, and how the different vendors took varying times to fix it
<sabdfl> boy, i wish I could see the future. ubuntu would have *amazing* security if i could :-)
<sabdfl> i hope we'll never see another flaw like the OpenSSH one that hit Debian and Ubuntu.
<sabdfl> ever
<sabdfl> EVAR
<sabdfl> but for the rest we have to be responsive, clear, effective and deliver the updates cleanly
<sabdfl> i think we have a great track record
<sabdfl> better than any other free distro, and better than at least one of the commercial ones
<sabdfl> next
<jcastro> <playya> QUESTION: Do you plan to support more mobile devices like tablets and smartphones
<akgraner> <openweek8_> QUESTION: when you have a problem with your laptop, do you fix it or just someone in Canonical? :-)
<sabdfl> yes
<sabdfl> i try, then i ask around :-)
<sabdfl> next
<jcastro> <MarkDude> FOLLOW-UP QUESTION - did you just say that primarily white dudes are able to address the solving of Bug #1? Women & minorities just make it more interesting? Please clarify.
<sabdfl> MarkDude, if you think i can't see a baited trap from this close, you're mistaken
<sabdfl> i said that having diversity in the project is a wonderful goal. but it's no more a requirement to fix bug #1 than it is a requirement to do most other things. fundamentalism is something i despise, and that goes for overdone activism too.
<jcastro> (that was the last question)
<ubottu> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/1 (Timeout)
<sabdfl> thanks all!
<jcastro> Thanks everyone for participating!
<jcastro> we'll take a minute break and then Leann will begin with Kernel QA!
<jcastro> thanks sabdfl!
<sabdfl> you all rock. thanks for a great 9.10 and here's to a fantastic 10.04 LTS
<akgraner> thanks sabdfl !!!
<ogasawara> man, sabdfl is such a tough act to follow
* jcastro changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to Ubuntu Open Week! https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek (changes made, please check regularly) || Session: Kernel QA - The Lifecycle of a Kernel Bug - Leann Ogasawara || All questions go in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<jcastro> take it away ogasawara!
<ogasawara> Hi Everyone!
<ogasawara> Welcome to the Kernel QA session - A Kernel Bug's Life Cycle.
<ogasawara> My name is Leann Ogasawara and I help manage the Ubuntu Kernel Team's incoming and existing bugs against the kernel.
<ogasawara> Having to deal with such a large volume of bugs is an on going challenge for us.
<ogasawara> I thought this session would be a good opportunity to discuss the life cycle of a kernel bug and what bug reporters and triagers should expect.
<ogasawara> The life cycle of a kernel bug is pretty straight forward.
<ogasawara> 1: Report the Bug
<ogasawara> 2: Triage the Bug
<ogasawara> 3: Fix the Bug
<ogasawara> Let's get started and begin with Part 1: Report the Bug
<ogasawara> Ubuntu kernel bugs should be filed against the "linux" kernel package.
<ogasawara> It's important to make sure the bug is filed against the linux package to help ensure it gets looked at by the Ubuntu kernel team.
<ogasawara> Reporting a kernel bug can be done by running the following command from a Terminal (Applications->Accessories->Terminal):
<ogasawara> ubuntu-bug linux
<ogasawara> Running the command will automatically gather general kernel debug information and attach it to the bug being filed.
<ogasawara> This includes information such as dmesg output, lspci, kernel version, etc.
<ogasawara> dmesg output provides a log of kernel messages that often contains helpful debug information.
<ogasawara> lspci output lets us know about hardware a system has.
<ogasawara> And the kernel version lets us know the exact kernel version the bug is being reported against.
<ogasawara> Part of the bug reporting process also involves writing a title for the bug.
<ogasawara> Please make sure the title of the bug report is descriptive.
<ogasawara> Don't use something like "Suspend Fails" or "Wireless is broken".
<ogasawara> It's better to use for example "Suspend fails to resume on my Dell Inspiron 1420".
<ogasawara> Always include hardware or driver information in a kernel bug's title when applicable.
<ogasawara> The reason I say this is because kernel bugs are often hardware specific.
<ogasawara> Even though someone may be experiencing the same symptom of a bug, they should really open a new report if they have different hardware than the original bug reporter.
<ogasawara> Different hardware uses different drivers which likely require different fixes, hence the reason for opening separate bug reports.
<ogasawara> Remember, hijacking someone else's bug report is bad.
<ogasawara> We can always mark a bug as a duplicate of another bug later on if necessary.
<ogasawara> When something like "Suspend Fails" is used as the title, everyone with suspend/resume issues ends up subscribing and commenting to the bug.
<ogasawara> This invites others to post completely unrelated information to the bug.
<ogasawara> Even worse, the bug will often get a flurry of "me too" comments posted.
<ogasawara> "Me too" comments serve no useful purpose in helping fix a bug and only bloat a bug report.
<ogasawara> This results in impossible to follow bug reports which are not likely to get much attention from the kernel team.
<ogasawara> If you are affected by the same issue, Launchpad now has an +affectsmetoo functionality.  Just click on the "Does this bug affect you?" link in the bug report.
<ogasawara> If you are the original bug reporter and feel someone commenting on your bug has a separate issue, don't be afraid to kindly tell them they have a separate issue and to open a new report.
<ogasawara> These are the many reasons why I stress the importance of a descriptive bug title.
<ogasawara> Along with providing a descriptive title for the bug report, it's also just as important to provide a well written bug description.
<ogasawara> For the bug's description, it's always great to include steps to reproduce the issue if possible.
<ogasawara> This helps others to confirm they do indeed have the same bug.
<ogasawara> Additionally, it will help the developers debug the situation by either being able to reproduce the issue or get an idea what might be the root cause of the issue.
<ogasawara> Also, the bug description is a great place to mention if this is a regression or not.
<ogasawara> If the bug is a regression, it's important to also tag the bug as a regression.
<ogasawara> At the bottom or each bug report's description there should be a "Tags" line and a yellow pencil edit icon to add, remove, or update a bug's tag(s).
<ogasawara> There are usually 4 different regression tags that kernel bugs will use:
<ogasawara> 1) regression-potential - A bug discovered in the development release that was not present in the stable release.
<ogasawara> For example, right now Lucid is known as the development release and Karmic is the previous stable release.
<ogasawara> If someone finds a regression while testing Lucid while we are still in the development phase, this would be tagged "regression-potential".
<ogasawara> 2) regression-release - A regression in a new stable release.
<ogasawara> For example, Karmic just had it's official release.  If a regression is found in Karmic, this would be tagged "regression-release".
<ogasawara> regression-potential bugs could very well become regression-release bugs.
<ogasawara> 3) regression-update - A regression introduced by an updated package in the stable release.
<ogasawara> For example, if Jaunty released a new kernel update and if a regression were discovered due to the update, this would be tagged "regression-update"
<ogasawara> 4) regression-proposed - A regression introduced by a package in -proposed
<ogasawara> Prior to any updates being released, packages sit in what's called -proposed.  See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/EnableProposed .  If a regression is found in -proposed, this would be tagged "regression-proposed"
<ogasawara> For more information, refer to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/RegressionTracking
<ogasawara> If the bug is a regression, making sure to also specifically note the most recent version of the kernel where the bug did not occur and the version where the bug was first introduced is most helpful.
<ogasawara> This can help isolate the set of kernel patches which should be examined.
<ogasawara> With this version information a git bisect could also be used to determine the specific patch which introduced the regression.
<ogasawara> For those of you who don't know, git is the revision control system which is used by the upstream kernel as well as the Ubuntu kernel.  For more information on git refer to:
<ogasawara> http://www.kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/docs/
<ogasawara> Regarding the git bisect, it's basically a multi-step process to systematically narrow down a specific commit which introduced a regression.
<ogasawara> It involves a series of steps of marking a known "good" and "bad" kernel version and proceeding to build and test kernels.
<ogasawara> It usually only takes a few iterations to narrow down a specific patch which is causing issues.
<ogasawara> For more information please refer to:
<ogasawara> http://www.kernel.org/doc/local/git-quick.html#bisect
<ogasawara> Lastly, it's also good to comment on the frequency the bug is occurring.
<ogasawara> Can the bug be triggered at will or does it happen randomly?  If it happens randomly, how often does it happen?
<ogasawara> Once a bug has been reported, I have some additional tips to keep in mind that will help the kernel team work with the bug.
<ogasawara> First, make sure bug reports are kept up to date.  Even a small comment that the issue still exists against the latest 2.6.xx-yy.zz kernel is useful.
<ogasawara> Also, when asked to test the latest development kernel, please don't be difficult and reply with "I can't believe you want me to test a newer kernel!  This bug is against Hardy, which is an LTS release so it should be fixed there!"
<ogasawara> We understand where the frustration is coming from, but the hostile remark does not help solve the bug.
<ogasawara> Rants in general do not help resolve a bug, they rather have the opposite affect of annoying the developers trying to fix the issue.
<ogasawara> The fact of the matter is that before any kernel bug can qualify for a Stable Release Update, the bug should be confirmed as fixed in the actively developed kernel.
<ogasawara> Refer to http://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates for the Stable Release Update bug criteria and procedures.
<ogasawara> Also, if a bug has been resolved, don't be afraid to close the bug report.
<ogasawara> Marking the bug "Fix Released" helps make the kernel team's (and bug control team's) triaging efforts one step easier.
<ogasawara> We can always use additional help triaging kernel bugs which brings us to Part 2 of a kernel bug's life cycle, triaging the bug.
<ogasawara> But before we move on, I'm going to take a moment to field questions (if there are nay).  Remember to post them in #ubuntu-classroom-chat , I'll copy and reply to them here.
<ogasawara> aight, lets move on
<ogasawara> Part 2: Triage the Bug
<ogasawara> Remember, as a triager we are often the first point of contact for a bug reporter.
<ogasawara> It's important that we help move a bug into a good working state as well as help educate the bug reporter to submit better bug reports in the future.
<ogasawara> So how does that happen?
<ogasawara> First, make sure Ubuntu kernel bugs are assigned to the Ubuntu linux kernel package.
<ogasawara> http://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux
<ogasawara> If a bug reporter did not correctly file the bug against the linux kernel package, help reassign the bug and kindly remind them to report future kernel bugs against the linux kernel package.
<ogasawara> Failing to do so may result in the bug getting overlooked.
<ogasawara> It may be helpful to also point them at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/FindRightPackage .
<ogasawara> Next, we want to make sure a bug is really not a duplicate of another bug.
<ogasawara> openweek7_> QUESTION: Does 'ubuntu-bug linux' allow to significantly automate identifying duplicate errors?
<ogasawara> openweek7_: yes, during the bug filing process launchpad will present you a list of bugs this might be a duplicate of
<ogasawara> When marking bugs as duplicates, this is where we as kernel triagers need to be careful.
<ogasawara> Kernel bugs are usually hardware specific.
<ogasawara> Just because someone may be experiencing the same symptom of another bug, it doesn't necessarily mean they have the same bug.
<ogasawara> When in doubt, don't mark it as a duplicate and ask for a second opinion.
<ogasawara> Additionally, if you see someone comment on a bug and they don't have the same hardware, ask them to open a new bug report and explain why.
<ogasawara> This really helps prevent bugs from becoming wildly out of control with unrelated comments and impossible for a developer to follow, let alone fix.
<ogasawara> Next, help make sure the title of the bug as well as the bug description is informative.
<ogasawara> Like I mentioned earlier when reporting a bug, a title of "Sounds is broken" or "Suspend fails" is not informative.
<ogasawara> As a triager, if a bug doesn't have an informative title, help fix the title by making it more descriptive.
<ogasawara> One way to help improve the title is to mention the affected hardware or driver in the title.
<ogasawara> Another role of your job as a triager is to help improve the bug's description.
<ogasawara> One common improvement to a bug description would be to copy any relevant bits of debug information from the attached log files and paste them into the description of the bug.
<ogasawara> This could include items such as error messages found in a reporter's dmesg output or hardware information found in the lspci output.
<ogasawara> You may also want to post a comment as to why you're fixing the title or description of a bug to help remind the bug reporter to choose a better title/description in the next bug they report.
<ogasawara> when triaging, it's also helpful to tag the bug when applicable.
<ogasawara> Because the volume of kernel bugs is so high, tags are a useful way for triagers and developers to group and search for a category of bugs.
<ogasawara> One example of tags we talked about earlier were for regressions - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/RegressionTracking
<ogasawara> If you see a bug is a regression and it has not been tagged, please feel free to add the appropriate tag.
<ogasawara> A list of common bug tags used by the kernel can be found at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Tags under the "Kernel Specific" section.
<ogasawara> Next, if you find you have the same hardware as a bug being reported, try to reproduce the bug yourself.
<ogasawara> It's not unheard of for hardware to become faulty.  Being able to help confirm this is or is not the result of hardware going bad is important.
<ogasawara> Now I know the next part is sometimes a bit controversial, but it's also best if the issue has been confirmed against the latest kernel available.
<ogasawara> I realize this is a touchy subject for some individuals and some reporters often object to always being asked to "test the latest".
<ogasawara> However, when you are dealing with the kernel, keep in mind there are literally thousands of commits between each release.
<ogasawara> Then consider that each commit touches more than just one line of code and you've now hit insanity trying to isolate one fix (if it even exists) for a single bug.
<ogasawara> It's much easier if someone triaging the bug could kindly ask if the issue remains with the actively developed kernel.
<ogasawara> Finally, one of the most important aspects of triaging kernel bugs is making sure the appropriate debug information is attached.
<ogasawara> For the kernel this means dmesg output, lspci, kernel version info, etc.
<ogasawara> If a bug has been reported without this information, I recommend that instead of asking bug reporters to attach these files individually, have them run apport-collect.
<ogasawara> apport-collect will automatically gather and attach package specific debug information for a bug.
<ogasawara> For example, if we wanted kernel debug info attached to pretend bug 987654, the apport-collect command would look like:
<ubottu> Error: Launchpad bug 987654 could not be found
<ogasawara> heh
<ogasawara> apport-collect -p linux 987654
<ogasawara> There's less room for error having a bug reporter run one command versus having a bug reporter run multiple commands to capture multiple log files.
<ogasawara> But as I mentioned earlier, it's best to just use ubuntu-bug to report the bug in the first place.
<ogasawara> fagan> Question: when dealing with a hardware specific bug how are you able to confirm it?
<ogasawara> fagan: if you happen to have the same hardware, hopefully the reporter has steps to reproduce for you to test and confirm the issue
<ogasawara> fagan: unfortunately if you do not have the same hardware, the best you can do it make sure appropriate debug info is attached for the developers to dig in to
<ogasawara> In the process of attempting to triage a bug, if you've asked a bug reporter to provide more information, be sure to set the bug's status to Incomplete.
<ogasawara> Also be sure to subscribe yourself to a bug so that you are automatically notified when they have responded with the requested information.
<ogasawara> Once the bug looks ready for a developer to begin working on it, set the status of the bug to Triaged and make sure the Importance is set.
<ogasawara> Note that being able to set a bug to Triaged and also to set the Importance requires that you be a member of the Ubuntu Bug Control team in Launchpad.
<ogasawara> To learn how to join the ubuntu-bugcontrol team, refer to https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-bugcontrol
<ogasawara> I'd also like to bring up one last thing to keep in mind when triaging kernel bugs . . . and that's forwarding the bug upstream.
<ogasawara> Before a bug can be forwarded upstream, it should be confirmed to exist when running the latest upstream kernel.
<ogasawara> The Ubuntu kernel team has started building vanilla mainline kernel builds for users to test with.
<ogasawara> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/MainlineBuilds
<ogasawara> If a bug exists with the upstream kernel, the bug should be forwarded upstream so that the upstream kernel developers are also aware of the issue.
<ogasawara> Additionally, it may be discovered that the bug is fixed upstream and we should pull the fix back into the Ubuntu kernel.
<ogasawara> If a bug has already been reported to the upstream kernel bugzilla, http://bugzilla.kernel.org/ , we should make sure we set up an upstream bug watch from the Launchpad bug report to the upstream bug report.
<ogasawara> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Watches for more information on how to set an upstream bug watch.
<ogasawara> And since I think we have time, I'd also like to take a moment here to point out some extra specific triaging/debugging tips and tricks that people may find useful.
<ogasawara> but I'll field two questions really quick
<ogasawara> nameiner> QUESTION: When is the time to set a bug's status to confirmed or is this for the devs?
<ogasawara> nameiner: anyone can set a bug's status to Confirmed . . .
<ogasawara> nameiner: the time to do so is when you have been able to confirm the bug yourself
<ogasawara> nameiner: otherwise if you think enough debug information it attached to confirm the issue, feel free to set it to confirmed then as well
<ogasawara> nameiner: if you can then get a hold of someone in ubuntu-bugcontrol (usuall in #ubuntu-bugs), they can review and set it to Triaged
<ogasawara> openweek1____> Question:  Why the Edubuntu 9.10 does not have LTSP module on it?
<ogasawara> openweek1____: unfortunately I don't know the answer to that one, best to file a bug so it can be investigated :)
<ogasawara> ok, moving on to helpful triaging/debugging tips and tricks
<ogasawara> First, triaging update/install bugs . . .
<ogasawara> Having dealt with a good number of these types of bugs myself, I took the liberty to document some of the more common types of update/install issues I saw while triaging.
<ogasawara> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/DebuggingUpdateErrors
<ogasawara> That wiki outlines what some of the common error messages look like and the master bug the issue is likely a duplicate of.
<ogasawara> There are also examples of bugs being reported that really are not valid bugs.
<ogasawara> For example, an update/install failing due to the fact the user ran out of disk space is not a bug.  We have no control over how much disk space someone has.
<ogasawara> The next tip is for triaging wifi issues. . .
<ogasawara> Some may or may not know that for the past few releases we've been packaging an updated compat-wireless stack from upstream via the linux-backports-modules package.
<ogasawara> This allows users to run a newer compat-wireless stack which may in fact contain a fix for an issue they are seeing.
<ogasawara> Most recently for karmic we've actually been packaging the upstream stable compat-wireless release.
<ogasawara> If somone is experiencing wifi issues and uses a driver supported via the compat-wireless stack, they should try installing and testing the linux-backports-modules-wireless-karmic-generic package.
<ogasawara> A list of supported drivers which would be eligible for testing using the linux-backports-modules package can be seen at http://wireless.kernel.org/en/users/Drivers .
<ogasawara> Similarly, the next tip for triaging sound issues follows the same philosophy. . .
<ogasawara> For the Karmic release, we also packaged an updated alsa-driver snapshot for testing.
<ogasawara> If someone is experiencing sound issues, it might not hurt to try installing and testing the linux-backports-modules-alsa-karmic-generic package.
<ogasawara> And lastly, a tip for triaging kernel panics. . .
<ogasawara> One of the recent additions to Karmic is the linux-crashdump utility.
<ogasawara> In the event you have a kernel panic and the system is unrecoverable, linux-crashdump can help at least capture the contents of the panic and the events leading up to the panic to help provide some post event diagnosis and analysis.
<ogasawara> For more information, refer to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/CrashdumpRecipe
<ogasawara> In general, another good source for common debugging/triaging tips can be found at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/KnowledgeBase#Debugging
<ogasawara> As always, feel free to also take a look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/KernelTeamBugPolicies for more triaging information.
<ogasawara> The volume of kernel bugs can be daunting, especially considering the limited number of resources the kernel team has.
<ogasawara> If anyone has the desire to want to start helping out with Triaging kernel bugs, please let me know!  I'd be more than happy to help you get started.
<ogasawara> So before we move on to Part 3, Fixing the Bug, I'd like to field any additional questions if there are any . . .
<ogasawara> Ok, lets move on . . .
<ogasawara> Part 3: Fix the bug
<ogasawara> Once a bug has been reported and moved into a Triaged state, this implies the bug has enough information and is ready for a developer to hopefully begin debugging the issue and working on a fix.
<ogasawara> When a developer begins working on a bug, they should assign the bug to their self and also set the Status of the bug to In Progress.
<ogasawara> Please do not assign someone else to a bug unless you have their permission.
<ogasawara> Likewise, do not mark a bug as In Progress unless you are actively working on fixing the bug.
<ogasawara> Ignoring these requests will result in the bug likely getting overlooked as others will think someone else is already addressing the issue.
<ogasawara> When a developer has a possible patch to test, they will typically build a test kernel for the bug reporter to try.
<ogasawara> As a bug reporter, please be responsive with testing and feedback.
<ogasawara> Ideally, the patch being tested will have originated from upstream or will have already been submitted upstream.
<ogasawara> If a patch has not been pushed upstream, it needs to go upstream first.
<ogasawara> It's preferable for a patch to first be accepted upstream and then be pulled back down into the Ubuntu kernel.
<ogasawara> Once a patch has been committed to the Ubuntu kernel git repository, the status of the bug should be changed to Fix Committed.
<ogasawara> This is usually done by the developer.
<ogasawara> Only when a package containing the fix has been released to the archive should the status of the bug change to Fix Released.
<ogasawara> Assuming the developer made a note of the bug # in the changelog, the launchpad janitor should automatically update the status of the bug to Fix Released when a package containing the fix has been released.
<ogasawara> Once a bug has been marked Fix Released please refrain from re-opening the bug unless you are the original bug reporter and the issue remains unresolved.
<ogasawara> If someone is still experiencing issues after a fix has been released, it's likely they are experiencing a different issue which warrants opening a new and separate bug report.
<ogasawara> Likewise, if a bug has been marked Won't Fix or Invalid, please do not re-open the bug.
<ogasawara> There should have been a reason explaining why the bug is being marked Won't Fix or Invalid.
<ogasawara> Just because the status changes back to New, it doesn't change the reason the bug was originally closed.
<ogasawara> So that should cover the general life cycle of an Ubuntu Kernel Bug.
<ogasawara> Are there any other questions?
<ogasawara> Otherwise we can end 10min early for people to stretch before the amazing bethlynn takes over.
<ogasawara> Ok, I think we'll end a few mins early.  Thanks everyone!
<ogasawara> And feel free to ping me if you have any other questions or want to get involved.
<bethlynn> I am Beth Lynn Eicher of the Ohio LinuxFest. For the past 10 years I have been involved in user group activities
<bethlynn> I am distro agostic
<bethlynn> I use Ubuntu, SUSE, RHEL, Fedora
* akgraner changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to Ubuntu Open Week! https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek (changes made, please check regularly) || Session:     Resolving Bug One - BethLynnEicher    || All questions go in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<akgraner> bethlynn will be right back
<akgraner> chat client issues I believe...
<bethlynn1> Sorry... I'm back
<akgraner> welcome back  hands back over to bethlynn1
<bethlynn1> I am a professional system adminstrator who does not code
<bethlynn1> so
<bethlynn1> hacking on a bug is something that is unfamilar to me
<bethlynn1> however,
<bethlynn1> I am working on the biggest, most challenging bug, bug one
<bethlynn1> Microsoft has majority market share
<bethlynn1> When I first saw this bug file a few years ago, I was acutally a little ubset by it
<bethlynn1> because I was in an environment where bug one actually was resolved
<bethlynn1> I was working for Carnegie Mellon School of Computer Science which has deployed Linux on the desktop for almost 15 years
<bethlynn1> The truth of the matter is that Microsoft is relatively new to the market place in the span of computuing history.
<bethlynn1> The year is 2009. Unix is 40 years old.
<bethlynn1> And in the beginning, it was assumed that you would share your source code
<bethlynn1> This is why Richard Stallman was so annoyed in 1981 when he was told that he could have access to a printer driver code due to an non-disclosure agreement
<bethlynn1> it is due to Marketing that the Microsoft operating systems are seen as the way things have always been
<bethlynn1> and how they will always be
<bethlynn1> Apple computer has done their own marketing to rebut this
<bethlynn1> but what have we, as Linux users, especially Ubuntu users, done to tell the true story of how Linux is a useable operating system?
<bethlynn1> At Southern California Linux Expo, Zonker, the Open SUSE community manager
<bethlynn1> proposed an answer
<bethlynn1> The Linux Dairy council
<bethlynn1> The idea, is based on how American dairy farmers have formed a collective
<bethlynn1> to make a marketing campagin that is very successful. Everyone in the Unitied States knows the phrase "Got Milk?"
<bethlynn1> and that the Dairy council recommends 3 servings a day
<bethlynn1> without this campaign
<bethlynn1> if small farmers would have to market their own farm
<bethlynn1> and their own brand of milk, cheese, yougurt, etc....
<bethlynn1> instead of competing against eachother, they have come together to say one unitifed message that gets out there
<bethlynn1> If you want to get involved in the distro neutral marketing of Linux, I highly recommend you join the Linux Dairy Council
<bethlynn1> It's a google group: http://groups.google.com/group/linux-dairy-council
<bethlynn1> We need a diverse group of people to be invovled in the task of marketing
<bethlynn1> People of different geographic locations
<bethlynn1> People of different languages
<bethlynn1> and especially
<bethlynn1> different people who have non-geek friends
<bethlynn1> There is still an elistism in the Linux communityk
<bethlynn1> that the operating system we use is for geeks, by geeks
<bethlynn1> and that deploying Linux for their family
<bethlynn1> friends and neighbors
<bethlynn1> will be damaging to the relationship
<bethlynn1> There is a fear that you will get a call at any given time of the day about how much Linux sucks because they don't understand it
<bethlynn1> or because they can't do X
<bethlynn1> first let me discuss the calls about "how much Linux sucks"
<bethlynn1> I have deployed Linux on the desktop to non-geeks several times
<bethlynn1> these are people who have zero interest in the command line
<bethlynn1> just by sitting down and interviewing the person to see what they want to do with their computer before hand
<bethlynn1> then preparting the Linux software and testing it for them, goes a long way
<bethlynn1> at deployment time, show them how to do these tasks
<bethlynn1> this is relationship building
<bethlynn1> not relationship damanging
<bethlynn1> when done well
<bethlynn1> how to do this welll
<bethlynn1> don't take away the keyboard
<bethlynn1> let them play
<bethlynn1> and assure them that they can't break it
<bethlynn1> which is true because they will not invoke root anyway
<bethlynn1> with the Ubuntu distrobution
<bethlynn1> admin commands with a graphical interface get a prompt that doubles well as a message for "are you sure you really want to do this"
<bethlynn1> with a prompt for a password
<bethlynn1> now on to the "it doesn't do X" issue
<bethlynn1> interviewing the person first about their needs first also is key to avoiding this issue
<bethlynn1> setup the software for them if a tool to do X exists
<bethlynn1> Jono Bacon discussed in his book "The art of community"
<bethlynn1> that the audio software that he needed did not exist in his early days of podcasting
<bethlynn1> it is possible, but increasingly unlikely that the Ubuntu Mulitverse lacks a package to do at least something close to X
<bethlynn1> sometimes you need to conceed that their isn't a tool that does X
<bethlynn1> examine if it works in Wine
<bethlynn1> or if Crossover will support it
<bethlynn1> if you can't find a package that does X, post the problem to a mailing list somewhere
<bethlynn1> that gets into the internet search enginies
<bethlynn1> that allows you tell the world that this bug is out there
<bethlynn1> a question for the Ubuntu community
<bethlynn1> please answer in -chat
<bethlynn1> is there some way that people can file another bug and attach it as related to bug one
<bethlynn1> thanks
<bethlynn1> one more point about "It can't do X" before I more on
<bethlynn1> Setting relistic expecations for those new to Linux before they see it is important
<bethlynn1> Shawn Powers discussed this at his Ohio LinuxFest 2009 keynote
<bethlynn1> People, at least Americans,
<bethlynn1> have a negative idea of what "free" really gets you
<bethlynn1> If you tell people the bad news up front then you make the experience of when the get to the keyboard up to the software to prove itself
<bethlynn1> For example,
<bethlynn1> if I was suggesting Linux for someone who does US Tax preparation
<bethlynn1> I would tell that person that the shirkwrapped software that is bought in the electronic store is likely not to work
<bethlynn1> then I would see if there is a webbased alternative
<bethlynn1> and if alternatives would be acceptable to the user
<bethlynn1> What I have seen,
<bethlynn1> when I give a person a Linux computer, they are actually quite happy about the experience
<bethlynn1> and it strengthens relationships
<bethlynn1> because you start with the relationships of what you already have
<bethlynn1> and what you already have in common
<bethlynn1> if there are people who look like you
<bethlynn1> and talk like you
<bethlynn1> who are using a product
<bethlynn1> it gives a great deal of ligitamacy
<bethlynn1> this is why it is important for diversity
<bethlynn1> I spend the majority of my time when I give a computer away to women
<bethlynn1> because I am a woman
<bethlynn1> I do tell men about how great Linux and free software is too
<bethlynn1> but it is easier for me to speak the language for a woman to another woman
<bethlynn1> than a man to a woman or vice versa
<bethlynn1> there are other diversity groups
<bethlynn1> that I can't discuss here, out of interest of time
<bethlynn1> but the quick answer is to start in the neighborhoods you already work in
<bethlynn1> and network with your friends there
<bethlynn1> the Zareason folks use the phrase "Friends help Friends use Linux"
<bethlynn1> good stuff
<bethlynn1> Now
<bethlynn1> since I only have 15 minutes left
<bethlynn1> I will discuss where Microsoft has majority marketshare
<bethlynn1> I have been blogging on whatwillweuse.com with maco since July 2009
<bethlynn1> abut where Micorosoft has market share
<bethlynn1> and it's status
<bethlynn1> through this discussion, there are only three places where we have found that Microsoft can make the claim
<bethlynn1> 1. Operating system
<bethlynn1> 2. Browser
<bethlynn1> 3. Office Suite
<bethlynn1> Installing Ubuntu instead of Windows resolves the desktop operating system issue
<bethlynn1> to be absolutely clear
<bethlynn1> Microsoft only has majoroty market share in the desktop operating system area
<bethlynn1> not in servers
<bethlynn1> not in high performance computing
<bethlynn1> not in embedded
<bethlynn1> not in voip
<bethlynn1> not in smart phones
<bethlynn1> the only operating system space they have left is the desktop
<bethlynn1> 2. Browser
<bethlynn1> There are three versions that are still in use:
<bethlynn1> IE 6, 7, 8
<bethlynn1> Microsoft refuses to support IE6, in fact many web devs want IE6 to go away because it has not been patched for eons
<bethlynn1> if you include IE6, Microsoft only has 52% market share
<bethlynn1> if you exclude IE6, they don't have any where need significant market shere there
<bethlynn1> Therefore, help your neighbor, especially if you see them using IE6 by installing firefox on their current operating system
<bethlynn1> don't be so focused on getting them on to Linux
<bethlynn1> becaue firefox is such a quick fix
<bethlynn1> that will help us get some momentum in squashing this bug
<bethlynn1> now Office Suites
<bethlynn1> Microsoft Office 2007 is an unpopular product
<bethlynn1> no one likes the ribbobn
<bethlynn1> and it introduces the .docx extention
<bethlynn1> which unpatched legacy versions of Microsoft Office can not  open
<bethlynn1> moreover, there are US patent concerns specific to MS Word 2007
<bethlynn1> Microsoft will not change way MS Word operates in MS Office 2010
<bethlynn1> they aren't getting rid of the ribbon or the .docx
<bethlynn1> this will make their users very frustrated
<bethlynn1> therefore
<bethlynn1> install Open Office
<bethlynn1> on whatever opperating system they use right now
<bethlynn1> it has a much more familar interface
<bethlynn1> its free
<bethlynn1> and people can stilll open and edit their .doc
<bethlynn1> and there are great strides in .docx compability
<bethlynn1> I see I must wrap this up
<bethlynn1> If you are interested in Microsoft's market share
<bethlynn1> come join us on the conversation on http://whatwillweuse.com
<bethlynn1> I will be on #whatwillweuse on this server for about 2 hours after this talk too for questions
<jcastro> wow thanks alot bethlynn1!
<bethlynn1> There is a comparison to a Gandhi quote as to how we should work with Microsoft
<jcastro> hard to believe this is your first session for openweek ever!
<bethlynn1> 1. They mock you
<akgraner> awesome... bethlynn1 !!
<bethlynn1> oops
<bethlynn1> 1. They mock you
<bethlynn1> 2. They mock you
<bethlynn1> 3. They fight you
<bethlynn1> 4. You win
<bethlynn1> but how do we get past 3? Use another Gandhi quote.... be the change in the world that you seek.... Thank you very much
* akgraner changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to Ubuntu Open Week! https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek (changes made, please check regularly) || Session:      Introduction to the Ubuntu Documentation Project - MatthewEast     || All questions go in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<akgraner> Next up is Matthew East with Ubuntu Documentation
<akgraner> mdke, you ready to take the stage
<mdke> yep
<mdke> thanks akgraner
<akgraner> take it away...
<mdke> right let's get cracking!
<mdke> I'm here to talk about the Ubuntu Documentation Project
<mdke> It's an excellent way for newcomers to the community to get involved in Ubuntu
<mdke> because it doesn't require substantial technical skills - just the ability to write reasonable English and a willingness to help
<mdke> what I'm going to do today is a whistestop tour through the documentation team, just as an introduction
<mdke> then, we'll run some more detailed sessions for people interested in contributing next week
<mdke> stay tuned here for the details of that, I'll announce them at the end
<mdke> right, an intro to the team
<mdke> The documentation team is completely made up of volunteers. The core team is https://launchpad.net/people/ubuntu-doc but many others contribute to documentation all the time. To find out how to communicate with us, see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Contact
<mdke> We have a mailing list and hang out on irc at #ubuntu-doc
<mdke> There are essentially two types of documentation that the team produces. The ultimate reference page for any information is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam
<mdke>    1. System documentation - this is written in a markup language called Docbook XML, and is hosted in our repository.
<mdke> (That's the documentation that you see when you click on System->Help and Support on your Ubuntu system
<mdke> or click the question mark button on the panel)
<mdke>    2. Online documentation - composed of an html version of 1., and a community driven wiki (https://help.ubuntu.com/community)
<mdke> Iâll discuss each in turn. I'm going to start with the community driven wiki first, because that is the easiest place for new contributors to get started with documentation.
<mdke> = Wiki Documentation =
<mdke> The wiki is found at https://help.ubuntu.com/community. As with wikipedia, it is a collaborative resource which is free to anyone to edit.
<mdke> This provides a resource for users to search for help when they come across those unusual problems that baffle us all occasionally
<mdke> The most basic way to contribute is simply to correct errors that you find in any particular document.
<mdke> There are plenty! It's a huge resource, and not all of the pages are perfect by any means
<mdke> This is really easy to do: the first step is to log into the wiki (using your launchpad account)
<mdke> You do this by visiting https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ and then clicking on the "Login to Edit" link in the top right hand corner. Wait a few moments and you are taken to a Launchpad login page. Just click, "Sign In", and you're logged into the wiki.
<mdke> Feel free to try it now!
<mdke> Next, you visit the page you want to edit, say for example https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Installation/SystemRequirements. You then bring up the edit box, by clicking "Show Editing Options" in the bottom right hand corner. That gives you the various options that you have, including to edit the page.
<mdke> The wiki is written in a simple markup language, which allows us to create basic formatting such as section titles and links.
<mdke> Wikipedia has the same, but the markup used is slightly different
<mdke> The wiki markup is very simple. It's easy to get to understand how it works. You can either read the markup of existing pages (by clicking "More Actions" -> "Raw Text" in the edit bar) or you can read through our guides to the wiki.
<mdke> The most important guide to read for anyone working on the wiki is the WikiGuide, found here: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiGuide.
<mdke> The WikiGuide is the basic reference point whenever you want to find out how to do something as a wiki editor. It also gives you guidance about our standard practices
<mdke> I hope that it's easy to understand - but if anything isn't clear feel free to let us know by posting to our mailing list
<mdke> We're always eager to improve our own documentation :)
<mdke> Once you are familiar with the wiki, the next step is to figure out how you can help. Obviously, you can review existing pages that you are interested in or happen to come across, but you may want some guidance about specific tasks.
<mdke> Our basic task list is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Wiki/Tasks. The Ubuntu Beginners Team also has a task list for their "Wiki Focus Group", which works closely with the Documentation Team, here: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Beginners/Development
<mdke> A great way to find pages that need work is by using the tag system. We have a number of different tags that we apply to pages that need different types of attention.
<mdke> You can read about the different tags and how to use them here: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Tag.
<mdke> The different tags are: Unsupported Version, Content cleanup required, Style cleanup required, Needs Expansion, Page too long, Candidate for moving, Candidate for deletion, Duplicate article.
<mdke> Great tags for finding pages that need work are the first five of those. These are pages that are outdated, unclear, too short, or too long.
<mdke> You can find the list of pages with a particular tag by visiting https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Tag, going to the relevant tag, and clicking on "List of pages with this tag".
<mdke> Then, you just pick a page, and start working on improving it! Feel free to get in touch with the team on the mailing list to let them know the work that you are doing on any particular page, and to seek advice if you need it.
<mdke> If you come across a page that you think needs improving, and it doesn't have a tag, you can add one using the instructions on the "Tag" page
<mdke> Right now we have a *lot* of tagged pages, so there is plenty of work to do!
<mdke> Ok, that in a nutshell is the community help wiki. I'd encourage anyone interested in helping out with documentation to check it out, and in particular to start with this page: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiGuide
<mdke> This might be a good moment to take a break for questions
<mdke> If anyone has any questions about the wiki, feel free to ask them now in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<mdke> 20:24:01 < saji> Hey What is the difference between https://help.ubuntu.com/community and wiki.ubuntu.com?
<mdke> excellent question!
<mdke> Both of these sites are wikis, so they are collaborative resources which are free for anyone to edit
<mdke> the key distinction is that https://help.ubuntu.com/community is only for documentation
<mdke> and wiki.ubuntu.com is only for team organisation and planning
<mdke> so you can see help.ubuntu.com as a site for users, and wiki.ubuntu.com as a site for contributors to Ubuntu
<akgraner> <dhillon-v10> QUESTION: mdke, now that you are here, me and Phil were talking about this: how do we go about getting a survey of people
<mdke> just a followup on the previous question
<mdke> saji has pointed out that there are some help documents on wiki.ubuntu.com
<mdke> The simple answer is that these are there by mistake, and should be moved
<mdke> If you see a document for users on wiki.ubuntu.com, it can be reported by adding the word "CategoryDocumentation" at the bottom of the page
<mdke> that will add it to the list to be moved
<mdke> ok, to address dhillon-v10's question
<mdke> at the moment we don't have much feedback from users about how helpful our website or help pages are
<mdke> I personally think that there should be a way for a user to report easily possible errors or complaints about wiki pages, without having to file a bug report, just by clicking on a button on the page
<mdke> it could even be a short survey embedded into the page
<mdke> but we haven't discussed this as a team properly, and I'd encourage dhillon-v10 to post to the mailing list about it for a full discussion and brainstorming session
<mdke> QUESTION: 20:30:21 < saji> mdke, where will the pages relating to troubleshooting come under?
<mdke> A page which involves troubleshooting a piece of software to help a user will generally be for help.ubuntu.com
<mdke> sometimes there are borderline cases, we don't always get the distinction right, but we try!
<mdke> Right, I'm going to move on to discussing the second type of documentation that we have now
<mdke> = System Documentation =
<mdke> The System documentation is the documentation that is included by default with every Ubuntu system
<mdke> It appears in the menu at System->Help and Support, or by clicking on the blue question mark in the top panel
<mdke> Because this documentation is included with every Ubuntu system, we run a stricter system of quality control
<mdke> it's not open to everyone to edit like the wiki is
<mdke> But, it's still easy to contribute!
<mdke> As usual, the starting place to learn how to contribute is our team wiki page, at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam
<mdke> In particular: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation
<mdke> To prove that it's easy to learn how to contribute to system documentation, take myself as an example
<mdke> I don't have any technical computing training, I'm not a computer scientist. However, I got interested in ubuntu documentation, and found that I'd pretty quickly learned the ropes to make basic contributions
<mdke> Gradually, you get more experienced, and eventually you are completely comfortable contributing, and may be granted full access to edit the documentation
<mdke> So let's take a closer look at how the system documentation works
<mdke> Again, it's written in a markup language. But the markup is more complicated. It's called Docbook XML
<mdke> It's a markup language quite similar to HTML, which webpages are written in, so some of you may be familiar with that
<mdke> As before, the best way to get to know it is to read some existing documents and to read our guides
<mdke> Our guides on Docbook XML start here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/Editing
<mdke> As for reading some existing documents, first we need to download the repository of the documents
<mdke> The documents are stored in a version control repository which anyone can download. the version control system used is BZR
<mdke> Most of the Ubuntu community uses BZR to store its code
<mdke> bzr is pretty easy to learn
<mdke> I don't have time to go into it in too much detail in the time we have, unfortunately
<mdke> Essentially there are a few commands which we use to do just about everything we need
<mdke> "bzr branch" is the command to download the documents.
<mdke> A detailed guide to getting the documents and using bzr can be found here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/Repository
<mdke> One of the key things to notice is that we have quite a lot of different bzr "branches" that can be downloaded
<mdke> it's important to get the right one
<mdke> The list of all of our branches is here: https://code.launchpad.net/ubuntu-doc-project
<mdke> The main ones for ubuntu-docs, kubuntu-docs, xubuntu-docs and edubuntu-docs have a star by them
<mdke> so to get the ubuntu-docs branch, you would run "bzr branch lp:ubuntu-docs"
<mdke> If you run into any problems having read the guide at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/Repository, feel free to ask the team for help
<mdke> Again, finding tasks can be one of the thing that newcomers find difficult
<mdke> We keep a list of tasks here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/Tasks
<mdke> the first thing you can do is simply to read the system documentation and point out errors (mistakes, typos, etc)
<mdke> You can point them out by filing bug reports in Launchpad, just as you do with any Ubuntu project
<mdke> Alternatively, you can try and submit a fix for them yourself
<mdke> We have a "quick guide" to doing that - our playbook - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation?action=AttachFile&do=view&target=BugsPlaybook.pdf
<mdke> That explains how to fix a bug in a few quick and easy steps
<mdke> Once you are familiar with our processes, you can find some more chunky tasks by visiting the https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/Tasks page
<mdke> That has links to existing bug reports for our projects, and suggestions for new documents
<mdke> If you aren't comfortable with our markup yet, you can submit material as plain text, and we will convert it into Docbook XML - any contribution is valued
<mdke> That is a (very fast) overview of System Documentation - I know that there will be plenty of things to develop further, and that's part of the point in having some further sessions next week
<mdke> The sessions are going to be as follows:
<mdke> Good Preparation when Writing Documentation - AugustinaBlair
<mdke> Augustina is a new contributor to the team who wrote the help document for USB Startup Disk Creator
<mdke> She did a great job with that and the secret was planning it very well - so she's going to share some thoughts on planning documentation with us
<mdke> The second session is:
<mdke> Project Mallard - Writing Documentation in XML - PhilBull
<mdke> Phil is a longterm contributor to the team, and he will explain in much more detail how to understand the XML markup
<mdke> He'll introduce a different type of XML markup which is being developed at the moment by the Gnome documentation team - Project Mallard
<mdke> the sessions will be run on:
<mdke> 11 November 2009 at 5pm UTC - in #ubuntu-doc
<mdke> If there is a bit of demand, perhaps we can persuade Augustina and Phil to run the sessions again in the future :)
<mdke> Before taking a couple of questions, I'd just like to mention translation as a great way of contributing to Ubuntu Documentation
<mdke> Our documentation is translated into tens and tens of languages by the faithful ubuntu translation teams
<mdke> they do an awesome job, but can always do with help!
<mdke> Have a look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Translation if you are interested in translating documentation
<mdke> ok, time for a couple of questions
<mdke> 20:35:57 < airurando> QUESTION: What, if any, are the collaborative links between Ubuntu Documentation and Ubuntu Learning?
<mdke> airurando: At the moment, I'm not too familiar with what the ubuntu Learning project is doing in terms of user teaching. I know that they have developed a project in that area, and we have discussed collaboration at length, but it's still in early stages
<mdke> I haven't been in touch with the learning team recently about this so I am a little out of touch
<mdke> Sorry that I can't answer your question more fully but I'd be happy to followup by email with the learning team about collaborating
<mdke> 20:38:24 < duanedesign> QUESTION: Are there any tools you recommend for working with DocBook XML, like XML Mind?
<mdke> I have personally tried bluefish, and it was quite good
<mdke> but I didn't try it very extensively, because I found it easy to use a simple text editor for working with docbook XML
<mdke> For example gedit (the default Gnome text editor) is quite good because it hilights the relevant tags that are used
<mdke> Again, I know that's not a great answer :) Other Documentation Team members might have better suggestions
<mdke> Feel free to post to the mailing list about that!
<mdke> 20:49:06 < saji> Question:How can plaintext contributions be made?
<mdke> Plain text contributions can be attached or pasted into bug reports, or sent to the mailing list
<mdke> We probably prefer bug reports, as they can't get lost
<mdke> But either is fine
<mdke> I think we're just about finished on timing, so I'll call a close and thank everyone for their attention
<mdke> Thanks and look forward to seeing you on the ubuntu-doc mailing list and #ubuntu-doc
<mdke> akgraner: over to you!
<akgraner> mdke, Thank you so much...
<akgraner> AWESOME session!!
<akgraner> Up next is Ken VanDine..
<kenvandine> hello everyone
<akgraner> take it away...
<kenvandine> ok, lets kick it off
* akgraner changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to Ubuntu Open Week! https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek (changes made, please check regularly) || Session:      Introducing the Telepathy Stack - Ken Vandine     || All questions go in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<kenvandine> We're here to talk about Telepathy, a real-time communications framework
<kenvandine> Let me start out by saying this session is planned to be about the Telepathy real-time communications framework, not about instant messenger preferences.
<kenvandine> Let me address that before we really get started.
<kenvandine> Empathy vs. Pidgin, Pidgin is a fine IM client and I don't think anyone has anything against it.
<kenvandine> A number of people have complained about the change of default IM client in Karmic, let me address that quickly.
<kenvandine> The choice wasn't exactly "Which IM client do we want in Karmic?"  It was more about the Telepathy framework and the possibilities it brings to the desktop.
<kenvandine> We have been watching telepathy for quite some time, and we feel it has matured enough that it is time to start to leverage it on the desktop.
<kenvandine> Of course we aren't doing anything to prevent people from using Pidgin if they choose, but Ubuntu's default is Empathy which utilizes the telepathy framework.
<kenvandine> Now lets talk about telepathy, what it is and why it rocks!
<kenvandine> For a little background I will paste a few links along the way for you to skim over now or read later.
<kenvandine> Telepathy - http://telepathy.freedesktop.org/wiki/
<kenvandine> real-time communications framework
<kenvandine>  for example instant messaging, voice and video chats, collaborative editing, etc
<kenvandine> modular design, for example adding protocol support is really just installing another backend (like a plugin).
<kenvandine> each of these backends run independently, if one crashes it doesn't crash everything else and it should just restart automatically
<kenvandine> making it rather robust
<kenvandine> Easily integratable, we'll talk more about that later
<kenvandine> for the rationale behind Telepathy, http://telepathy.freedesktop.org/wiki/Rationale
<kenvandine> also for a system overview, explaining all the components and how they work together
<kenvandine> http://telepathy.freedesktop.org/wiki/System%20Overview
<kenvandine> is a good read
<kenvandine> basically there is mission-control which acts as a dispatcher between clients and backends
<kenvandine> backends advertise their capabilities, etc and mission-control handles hooking everyone up
<kenvandine> so empathy as a client, wants to create a video chat with a jabber contact, mission-control creates that channel to the telepathy-gabble (jabber) backend and begins creating the streaming channels
<kenvandine> etc
<kenvandine> next up is my favorite part, Tubes
<kenvandine> Telepathy Tubes is a mechanism for supporting arbitrary data transfer and remote IPC
<kenvandine> this allows telepathy to send data
<kenvandine> and other methods of communication with an application on the other end (remote)
<kenvandine> Tubes support both in band (stream through a jabber server) and out of band which talks directly to the remote contact.
<kenvandine> some examples of how these are used, or will be used today
<kenvandine> Vino and Vinagre - VNC server and client which supports streaming over telepathy tubes
<kenvandine> you can use this today in Karmic
<kenvandine> Screencast showing offering side http://people.collabora.co.uk/~cassidy/blog/vnc-tube-offer.ogv
<kenvandine> Screencast showing accepting side http://people.collabora.co.uk/~cassidy/blog/vnc-tube-accept.ogv
<kenvandine> those screencasts show both ends of a VNC session
<kenvandine> basically in your empathy buddy list, you can select a friend and "Share your desktop" with them
<kenvandine> telepathy negotiates the transport to do that
<kenvandine> which makes it operate well behind a NAT, home router, etc
<kenvandine> which has always been a limitation
<kenvandine> QUESTION: is that protocol dependent?
<kenvandine> yes it is
<kenvandine> it requires xmpp (jabber)
<kenvandine> i am not sure if it can work over other protocols, but xmpp is much more extensible
<kenvandine> so that is a great example of tubes that you can use today in Karmic
<kenvandine> some other works in progress
<kenvandine> Banshee
<kenvandine> Browse your friends music and music metadata
<kenvandine> Download, stream and see what your friends are playing (if they allow it)
<kenvandine> http://nlokos.blogspot.com/2009/08/crossing-finish-line.html
<kenvandine> it was a google summer of code project
<kenvandine> very impressive stuff, not really ready for everyday use but it will get there soon
<kenvandine> Rhythmbox
<kenvandine> there is work to enable sharing music with IM contacts
<kenvandine> i don't have a link for that, it seems splintered at the moment between a couple git repositories
<kenvandine> Gtetrinet
<kenvandine> there is a patch for Gtetrinet to play tetris with your friends via tubes
<kenvandine> http://cass.no-ip.com/~cassidy/blog/index.php/post/2007/10/21/GTetrinet-through-tubes
<kenvandine> the site appears to be down, perhaps the link will work again at some point :)
<kenvandine> i think it was up earlier this week, so hopefully only temporary
<kenvandine> GNOME Games, sudoku
<kenvandine> also a google summer of code project
<kenvandine> collaborate or compete with friends
<kenvandine> http://blog.zhangsen.org/2009/08/gsoc-final.html
<kenvandine> i think that work is proposed for merging into gnome for 2.30
<kenvandine> and there is talk about replacing ggz (gnome game zone i think) with telepathy based services
<kenvandine> i don't think ggz has ever been used much
<kenvandine> Tic Tac Toe (work in progress)
<kenvandine> simple tic tac toe game with your friends
<kenvandine> https://edge.launchpad.net/tictactoe
<kenvandine> those are some samples i found to give everyone a basic idea
<kenvandine> i would love to see a f-spot extension that lets you share/view your friends photos
<kenvandine> there are many possibilities
<kenvandine> QUESTION:  Is the VNC with Empathy secure.  VNC  needs to be tunneled over SSH for example to make it secure when using over The Internet.
<kenvandine> I don't know what kind of encryption is used, if any
<kenvandine> it is really piping vino/vinagre connection over jabber
<kenvandine> which is likely using ssl
<kenvandine> depending on your configuration
<kenvandine> i can't answer if there is anything more done than that
<kenvandine> that last question was from sebsebseb
<akgraner> <Chopinhauer> QUESTION: While talking about games. Have you considered Telepathy integration with the Volity framework?
<kenvandine> I haven't heard about Volity, might be something nice to consider
<kenvandine> next
<akgraner> <Jesi> Question: are there any reasons why you might have to use another means to have a remote desktop session (at least with Linux/Ubuntu) or do you see Telepathy replacing older methods?
<kenvandine> not sure about replacing other methods
<kenvandine> but it definately adds convenience
<kenvandine> for example, i used to have my mother's computer login to my openvpn server at home so i could have a connection out to her machine behind her router
<kenvandine> so i could ssh in if needed
<kenvandine> now i can just ask her to share her desktop with me if she has any problems (fortunately that never happens) :)
<kenvandine> it greatly simplifies the networking situation if it is needed
<kenvandine> and a good proof point for what telepathy can do
<kenvandine> next
<akgraner> none right now
<kenvandine> ah... no more questions yet
<kenvandine> anyone else?
<kenvandine> or ideas for more applications to utilize telepathy?
<kenvandine> we will be discussing it quite a bit at UDS for Lucid
<akgraner> <IdleOne> QUESTION: facebook chat???
<kenvandine> I would love to have lots of ideas going into some discussions
<kenvandine> ah... that is easy :)
<kenvandine> facebook chat will be xmpp soon
<kenvandine> it works today with the pidgin-facebookchat plugin
<kenvandine> one of the backends for telepathy is called haze
<kenvandine> which is an interface to the protocols supported by libpurple (pidgin)
<kenvandine> so if you install telepathy-haze and pidgin-facebookchat it will almost work
<kenvandine> you need to actually delete a file :)
<kenvandine> but none of that will be needed when facebook opens up the jabber service
<kenvandine> next
<akgraner> gQuigs1> QUESTION - it would be possible to use pidgin as a frontend to telepathy (and then going through telepathy) to libpurple?  (yes I miss my pidgin plugins)
<kenvandine> sure, if someone hacked pidgin to be a telepathy client
<kenvandine> next
<akgraner> <johanbr> QUESTION: Telepathy audio/video still seems a bit unstable. What's being done to address that for Lucid (or later)?
<kenvandine> we are doing what we can there
<kenvandine> it seems pretty stable if both ends have UPnP enabled, and UPnP is fairly reliable on the routers
<kenvandine> most of the voice/video problems are failures to negotiate UPnP with the router
<kenvandine> although, it will work without upnp
<kenvandine> but for video, it opens two streams
<kenvandine> and that seems to be a little more problematic
<kenvandine> although i haven't seen a single voice only call failure in weeks
<kenvandine> which has been great :)
<kenvandine> some stuff we want to address in Lucid is the workflow used for answering calls
<kenvandine> make that simpler and more discoverable
<kenvandine> also we have talked to the upstream telepathy developers about working with them to create a diagnostics type of interface
<kenvandine> so embedded into the call window there might be a button that lets you check for common problems and help guide you toward fixing them
<kenvandine> for example checking to see if you have UPnP enabled
<kenvandine> etc
<kenvandine> perhaps sound configuration, things like that
<kenvandine> next
<akgraner> <Jesi> Question: Is there work on providing Telepathy support for Windows? I know this is not a windows discussion, but it would be great to use Telepathy for remote desktop and music browsing of my friends not using Linux, and I wouldn't always have to go to their house to fix their computer
<kenvandine> hehe
<kenvandine> there are instructions on the telepathy website for compiling telepathy on windows
<kenvandine> i don't know how well it works
<kenvandine> but
<kenvandine> even if you had it running on windows, the applications would need to be there too
<kenvandine> for example, banshee expects the other end to be banshee
<kenvandine> because the client and remote end are actually talking to each other
<kenvandine> next
<akgraner> <Chopinhauer> QUESTION: Meta-contacts in Empathy (or maybe better Telepathy) would be nice. Would they be available in Lucid? Having multiple buddies for the same person is a little annoying.
<kenvandine> short answer is yes
<kenvandine> it is on the roadmap for gnome 2.30 (i think)
<kenvandine> even if it isn't on their roadmap, i think they have other features that depend on it
<kenvandine> so i am pretty confident in saying we will have that for Lucid
<kenvandine> next
<akgraner> not one yet but I have one to ask typing it now
<akgraner> akgraner> Question: I was using empathy to see someones computer today but if I moved my mouse it all to check on things not in that widow it messed up what the other person was doing.  How can I use it but still work on the other stuff on my desktop with messing up the other screen?  make sense
<kenvandine> ah
<kenvandine> that is remote control, which is usually what you want
<kenvandine> for example there is only one mouse pointer and one keyboard cursor
<kenvandine> but two people are controlling it
<kenvandine> it isn't the same as multiple users logged in
<kenvandine> anymore questions?
<akgraner> maybe getting clarification
<akgraner> <jordi1983> I'd like to know when there will be LCS (Microsoft Network Communicator) support on Empathy, now it is provided by pidgin-sipe plugin but it doesn't work through telepathy-haze.
<kenvandine> sorry, i can't really answer that
<kenvandine> i would think it should work through haze
<kenvandine> is there a bug filed against telepathy-haze?
<kenvandine> if not, please do
<kenvandine> next
<akgraner> <Jesi> Question: it should be possible to use Telepathy to sync the calender on multiple machines..... as well as say your Evolution or Thunderbird mailbox, correct? or would something else like U1 be better?
<kenvandine> humm..
<kenvandine> well telepathy is designed for real-time communications
<kenvandine> things like calendar sync are pretty well defined already
<kenvandine> however
<kenvandine> if, for example, evolution added a feature to show calendar events, or other "right now" kind of things
<kenvandine> that could be kind of cool
<kenvandine> click on a calendar entry, share with contact and it sends to one of your friends in your buddy list
<kenvandine> could also be used for selecting/scheduling meetings and such
<kenvandine> so it is possible, but someone would need to write it :)
<kenvandine> mail probably not so well suited
<kenvandine> any more questions?
<akgraner> nope not yet
<akgraner> one more
<akgraner> one sec
<akgraner> <sebsebseb> QUESTION:  If  I am correct one of the reasons Empathy replaced Pidgin is, because it's an upstream Gnome app, that also had web cam support unlike Pidgin?
<kenvandine> humm...
<kenvandine> not really
<kenvandine> it was desirable that it was on the same release schedule as gnome
<kenvandine> and so well integrated in gnome
<kenvandine> those were definately good points in favor of empathy
<kenvandine> but i really think the driver was the advanced nature of the telepathy framework
<kenvandine> pidgin doesn't really give us the future we want as a desktop
<kenvandine> especial now that everything has become so social and well connected
<kenvandine> pidgin is a messenger, that's it
<kenvandine> and it does that well
<kenvandine> been around forever and has a ton of plugins
<kenvandine> but it doesn't really embrace where we want to be as a desktop
<kenvandine> telepathy really does that
<kenvandine> and empathy is by far the most mature client for it, and actually a very nice instant messenger
<kenvandine> it does it's job quite well
<kenvandine> next
<akgraner> <Jesi> I meant more about keeping my calender and mailbox the same between my laptop and desktop, any ideas ?
<kenvandine> ah, that isn't a good use of telepathy
<kenvandine> telepathy is between you and your contacts
<kenvandine> u1 would be a better fit for that
<kenvandine> or using an existing service like gmail, etc
<kenvandine> evolution has pretty nice support for google calendars now
<kenvandine> next
<akgraner> <jbicha> QUESTION: supposedly, we can use Pidgin protocols in Empathy, but I don't see an option to add either Facebook or Twitter/Identica, what do I need to do?
<kenvandine> facebook isn't available in pidgin by default, you have to install a plugin
<kenvandine> pidgin-facebookchat
<kenvandine> and do a little google search for how to make it work with empathy
<kenvandine> you have to remove a file from telepathy-haze
<kenvandine> then it woks quite nicely
<kenvandine> well as good as it does in pidgin :)
<kenvandine> not sure about twitter/identi.ca
<kenvandine> next
<akgraner> <AlanBell> QUESTION: IRC is very important to the Ubuntu community (evidenced by the fact we are here) is telepathy-irc up to the job of being Ubuntu default IRC client for a new user?
<kenvandine> well telepathy-idle is the irc backend
<kenvandine> it works... most irc commands don't work though
<kenvandine> so rather limited
<kenvandine> but if you only use the UI, it works fine for most people
<kenvandine> however, imho pidgin was never a good irc client either
<kenvandine> irc in empathy will be improved in 2.30
<kenvandine> next
<kenvandine> we need to start wrapping up
<akgraner> <jordi1983> question: Which are the plans for Empathy integration in Gnome-shell and Gnome 3 in general? Is there something worth noting?
<akgraner> that has to be the last question.. we are out of time...:-)
<kenvandine> great
<kenvandine> one more thing
<kenvandine> http://telepathy.freedesktop.org/wiki/FAQ
<kenvandine> that's it... thanks!
<akgraner> Thanks Ken
<jcastro> woo thanks ken!
<jcastro> ok everyone
<jcastro> that's a wrap on OpenWeek for Karmic
<jcastro> before I hold the feedback session
<jcastro> I'd like to thank everyone who helped out
<jcastro> ausimage, akgraner especially!
* akgraner changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to Ubuntu Open Week! https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek (changes made, please check regularly) || Session:      Feedback and Ideas for next time - JorgeCastro     || All questions go in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<jcastro> ok
<jcastro> I've unmodded the channel
<czajkowski> whooooo
<akgraner> YAY!!
<jcastro> how did you enjoy openweek!
<AlanBell> it was great!
<jcastro> wow that good?!
<jcastro> heh
<egyn> i only participated this last session, my first session ever anyway. what a great event!
<egyn> sad to miss the rest..
<jcastro> any recommendations or things we could do better?
<openweek3_> egyn: same here
<jcastro> well, we do have logs of all the sessions
<jcastro> see the wiki page in the topic
<jcastro> thanks to ausimage for doing the logs!
<egyn> jcastro: yea i saw that, very good, reading up on how to develop rightr now
<Jesi> it was excellant, I just wish we had more time for comments
<Jesi> and questions
<AlanBell> there were a load of people arriving with the openweekx nick who hadn't been directed to the schedule and were a bit confused on arrival
<AlanBell> asking offtopic support questions in -chat
<jcastro> AlanBell, the topic links them to the wiki page
<AlanBell> and confusing people because they were all called openweekx
<egyn> future open weeks might be held in multiple rooms, like in the case of regular IRL conferences
<jcastro> however I felt having the web interface was important for people who don't know anything about IRC
<IdleOne> jcastro: we all know how everybody reads /topic :)
<AlanBell> I think the web interface is great
<jcastro> so people who came from the web interface were openweek1, etc.
<AlanBell> jcastro: yes, becase the nick was part of the URL
<jbicha> except it was worse, openweek7____
<gQuigs1> can we ever do something easier about time zones, like autoadjust to the users to show what's up next...?
<Jesi> in multiple rooms? but then we'd have to choose which one to attend :(
<jcastro> jbicha, yeah, unfortunately the more people join the crazier it gets
<jcastro> maybe we can improve that
<jcastro> gQuigs1, someone suggested a bot earlier
<Jesi> well if we emphasize that UTC is GMT that might help
<jcastro> and also to help with questions
<AlanBell> I think having the auto-nick was a bad thing because people didn't appreciate that they were all separate people
<jcastro> AlanBell, the webui does prompt people to put in a normal nick if they want
<jcastro> I don't know how many people did that though
<jbicha> what about if one day would be live video instead of just plaintext chat?
<jcastro> thought about that
<jcastro> the work required would be way way more than it is now
 * gQuigs1 wonders how if it's possible to do javascript in a wiki page...
<jcastro> it's been tough just to pull off text
<AlanBell> jcastro: no, http://webchat.freenode.net/?nick=openweek.&channels=ubuntu-classroom%2Cubuntu-classroom-chat
<Jesi> I noticed that because I didn't have voice in this channel, I couldn't change my nick in any channel, for some reason and got stuck as Jesi-Idle
<erUSUL> jbicha: video ? that will consume a lot of bandwith for little gain imho
<AlanBell> it asks you if you want to connect as openweek0 and gives you a connect button, nothing else
<Jesi> so if people get stuck as openweekX .....not good
<jcastro> AlanBell, aaaaah, ok, I'll note that
<jcastro> did you like the variety of the sessions?
<AlanBell> a nice dedicated web based split screen UI would be good.
<jbicha> erUSUL: probably so, and may make the session less useful, but it's more fun
<jcastro> and the presenters?
<AlanBell> the sessions were great
<Jesi> as for video, if IRC did video chat.....
<AlanBell> the presenters were all well prepared and responsive to questions
<erUSUL> jcastro: as allways ones a liked more than others ;)
<jcastro> we tried to get new presenters in
<akgraner> I liked how many new presenters there were...great to see more people getting involved
<jcastro> as well as old favorites
<jcastro> do you think the sessions were too techy? Not techy enough?
<jcastro> or do you like a blend?
<dscassel> If video's logistically hard, how about audio? More people have phones than webcams...
<AlanBell> blend is good
<jcastro> (please note that Developer Week is the intended hardcore week)
<openweek3_> i think it was nicely balanced, I thought the telepathy one would be more technical but thankfully it wasnt. The examples of implementations helped a lot
<akgraner> jcastro, would a survey  like survey monkey link off the wiki be helpful for feed back at all?
<jcastro> sure
<jcastro> akgraner, perhaps next time we should have a survey done before hand
<egyn> jcastro: (i only attended the last session) did you have extra time where presenters could rearrive in a later hour and talk more in detail?
<dscassel> I thought the blend was good.
<jcastro> for people in the beginning of the week
<jcastro> akgraner, good idea though
<akgraner> yeah I mean for next time sorry
<egyn> openweek3_: I agree
<jcastro> egyn, we always allow people to run sessions out of band if they want
<erUSUL> jcastro: i felt that the one about kvm/libvirt was not technical enough. an hour was not enough it seems
<jcastro> right
<ghostman> mimimi
<jcastro> some tech stuff will always take longer
<jcastro> however we've tried longer sessions in the past
<jcastro> and they just get brutal for everyone
<jcastro> so if an hour session can wet your appetite enough to get you to join the virt channel or whatever then I consider that a success
<jcastro> ideally a presenter should be flooded in their channel afterwards with questions
<erUSUL> jcastro: i will have to learn how to do the bridgin scripts for kvm elsewhere XXDD
<egyn> jcastro: that is a good approach. thanx
<jcastro> akgraner, I think enforcing speakers to finish off with where people can follow up would be useful
<akgraner> yes.. it would...
<akgraner> and 5 min before the next session
<AlanBell> is Open Week a good title?
<Jeruvy> I really enjoyed this, well moderated and ran.    Some presenters went way too fast, but having a irc log online will give us time to review at our own pace.  In no way did this detract from the topics.  My thanks to everyone behind the scenes who made this happen great work.
<jcastro> that way all the people passionate about the topic can continue the discussion in another channel without bothering the new presenters
<ghostman> freenode ist nazi
<AlanBell> maybe "text only conference" or something along those lines
<akgraner> so dents/tweets/topic changes and voicing can happen smoothly
<Jesi> i think it depended on the session..... some could have used more detail, others were maybe too technical, I don't considered myself to be non-technical and I like to read up on things.... but I did have to ask about terminology
<sebsebseb> I had a whole Open Week this time, however some sessions weren't really for me, so  I  went away from computer a bit or some Ubuntu Support in  IRC or whatever.   Some stuff I  haven't read yet also  sessionwise.  Unfortunatly I coudn't take part in the KVM session, because this computer doesn't have hardware virtulization.  The women sessions were good of course, but unlike with the one in 9.04, this time round I didn't ask a
<sebsebseb> question since  I ended up doing something else.
<jcastro> Jeruvy, yeah, unfortunately sometimes people have to write things ahead of time
<jcastro> because they would run out of time if they had to type by hand all hour
<sebsebseb> The Wine session was great for 9.04,  it's ashame that it got cancalled for 9.10,  why was that?
<jcastro> I personally tend to paste a block, write manually for a bit, repeat
<jcastro> sebsebseb, the WINE guy was on his way to the Wine conference
<jcastro> and had a last minute plane change
<jcastro> since all the wine people were on the way to wineconf it was impossible to find a wine person, heh
<sebsebseb> oh
<jcastro> Scott sends  along his regrets, he'll definately be back next time though
<Jesi> wineconf?
<jcastro> it's the conference for wine people
<sebsebseb> It would have been good if Marks session was two hours this time, since  quite a few questions that ended up not getting answered.
<Jesi> yeah allot of people ask about Wine, why isn't wine in synaptic?
<jcastro> sebsebseb, unfortunately even when it's 2 hours not everyone's questions get asked
<AlanBell> Jesi: it is.
<jcastro> he didn't have time to commit to 2 this time around
<ghostman> freenode ist nazifreenode ist nazi
<IdleOne> ghostman: #freenode for help with that
<Jesi> AlanBell: as of recently or has been? I had to add it to the sources in....... Intrepid (maybe it was Jaunty)
<IdleOne> Jesi: it was in jaunty
<ghostman> freenode ist nazifreenode ist nazifreenode ist nazifreenode ist nazi
<Jesi> oh, how long will the logs be up?
<IdleOne> jcastro: maybe you could show us how a ban is done?
<AlanBell> !info wine1.2
<ubottu> wine1.2 (source: wine1.2): Microsoft Windows Compatibility Layer (Binary Emulator and Library). In component universe, is optional. Version 1.1.31-0ubuntu3 (karmic), package size 9065 kB, installed size 75812 kB
<ubot2> AlanBell: wine1.2 (source: wine1.2): Microsoft Windows Compatibility Layer (Binary Emulator and Library). In component universe, is optional. Version 1.1.31-0ubuntu3 (karmic), package size 9065 kB, installed size 75812 kB
<charlie-tca> Jesi: once they are put in the wiki, they stay
<jcastro> IdleOne, I was just wondering the same thing
<ghostman> freenode ist nazifreenode ist nazi
<IdleOne> thank you
<jcastro> is that right? :p
<IdleOne> looked good yes
<Jesi> good session ;)
<JanC> I think Wine has been in Ubuntu since before 1.0 was released, so at least since dapper
<Jeruvy> get a board to set it on will help
<sebsebseb> Having this channel   moderated so we can't  message  here when a session is going on this time round,  well yes  I can imagine people maybe coming in here asking support questions when a session is going on,  or otherwise talking in here when they aren't really meant to.   However take 9.04 for example where people put messages in this channel when a session was going on when not really meant to,  it sometimes made things more fun,
<sebsebseb> and sometimes it was useful to be able to do that.
<jcastro> yeah
 * Jeruvy oops that, wrong window
<jcastro> last time we didn't need +m
<jcastro> but this time we did
<AlanBell> +m is better
<jcastro> dunno, I think that depends on the vibe
<jcastro> it was quite /awesome/ last time, we went the entire week without +m and everything worked so well
<dscassel> I liked having the two channels.  Learning how /window works in irssi helps.
<jcastro> but I think this time with a bunch of new people coming in with openweek7___ etc.
<sebsebseb> jcastro: Why was it felt that +m was needed this time?
<jcastro> that it was difficult to keep it non moderated
<Jesi> I accidently posted to the wrong channel a few times, good thing it didn't go through.... yeah, I suck....
<jcastro> sebsebseb, it just got too noisy with inexperienced people early on
<sebsebseb> jcastro: yeah those openweek  names confussed a lot of us I think
<jcastro> yeah that can be improved
<charlie-tca> As the numbers grow,
<charlie-tca> so does the confusion
<jcastro> yeah
<jcastro> those of you asking about video and stuff
<jcastro> jono does have a video-esque show on ustream: http://www.ustream.tv/channel/at-home-with-jono-bacon
<jcastro> where people can ask questions about ubuntu, etc.
<AlanBell> also the people arriving as openweek didn't get a good first impression of IRC. They were all being told to shut up for being off topic and go away to #ubuntu - which they couldn't as #ubuntu kicks out web client users.
<egyn> and the will to destroy and flood
<dscassel> jcastro, cool. Will check it out.
<sebsebseb> Maybe if something similar happens next time,  a rule should be that to take part in the channel  that's  classroom chat   and this one,  is that  they have to have a proper name.   Otherwise they get kicked/banned untill they name change?
<Jesi> would it be possible to have backup options for sessions if something gets canceled? it would be a shame for something not to be included because of time restraints to then find out it could have been included
<jcastro> I thnk we should just make it so they have to put in a name before they join
<AlanBell> text only is cool, it enables non-confident speakers to participate
<dscassel> I just find I learn more of an auditory learner.  Reading doesn't let it sink in as well.
<dscassel> IRC's good for the Q&A aspect, tho
<jcastro> Jesi, normally we have backup sessions but some people have been busy so it didn't work out
<AlanBell> there are plenty of real life/video/audio conferences. this is the only text only one I am aware of.
<charlie-tca> The problem is if they are first timers, they don't really know how to get names always
<jcastro> was anyone aware of the Spanish Open Week happening at the same time?
<sebsebseb> Regarding the +m  I suppouse really the person taking the session should choose to have it or not, for next time?
<AlanBell> yes, it was on the wiki page
<IdleOne> Please choose a nickname " little box to type it in "
<jcastro> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek_ES
<sebsebseb> jcastro: yes I was
<akgraner> I think we could have done a better job of making that known
<jcastro> just as a note, if you want to run an openweek in your language that that would be brilliant
<JanC> AlanBell: video/audio is a lot more complicated to set up...  (and for some people just impossible to use)
<sebsebseb> jcastro: not useful for me though, since  I know Hola  and  I think it's Navidad for Christmas and that's about it,  Costa Del Sol
<Jesi> yeah, one thing I did on my website (or used to do) when I had a web frontend or IRC, was to put a table underneath the applet to list commands and what they did
<charlie-tca> At the same time, turning on accessibility features, you can convert text to speech
<sebsebseb> I could name a few Spannish places
<AlanBell> I think open week should get the marketing effort (and suitable name) that a full scale conference would get.
<Jesi> I use pjirc for that..... never had a problem with going into channels
<IdleOne> sebsebseb: taco bell does not count :P
<AlanBell> how many users were in the audience?
<AlanBell> for Mark
<jcastro> we averaged around ~300
<jcastro> ~350 for mark
<jcastro> he usually gets about ~450 but I'm sure the last minute reschedule didn't help
<AlanBell> so a conference with 350 attendees is a significant conference
<sebsebseb> makes sense to have a Spannish Open Week I think though, since the amount of people that want es  that come into The Big Ubuntu Support Channel
<Jesi> 350 is a nice number I think
<jcastro> sebsebseb, yeah, ideally having concurrent weeks in different languages around the world would rock
<erUSUL> well i'm sure there were a few idlers (or many if count the people making questions ...)
<jcastro> that would also help coverage with time zones
<sebsebseb> jcastro: well  mainland Spain is a few hours a head of South America
<jcastro> that  brings up another idea
<AlanBell> and the number of unique attendees would be quite a lot higher than 350
<jcastro> in the past after the scheduled sessions people have just decided to run random sessions
<AlanBell> over the full week
<sebsebseb> jcastro: Also having session logs translated into other languages  afterwoulds could be useful
<JanC> I was idling most of the time, but have also read several presentations in backlog, that goes faster...  ;)
<jcastro> so one person will just start one on the fly, this is highly encouraged!
<sebsebseb> jcastro: Random sessions hmm
<jcastro> right
<jcastro> so some people miss it because of time zone or whatever
<sebsebseb> normalley I keep out of  these two channels  classroom and chat, since I don't really know what happens with them
<jcastro> so one day I woke up and overnight people were just running sessions
<jcastro> it was cool
<jcastro> well, when not running openweek the channels are here for similar things
<jcastro> so if your loco wanted to have a classroom session on something
<jcastro> you don't have to wait for openweek
<jcastro> you can just do one
<jcastro> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom
<Jesi> nice
<sebsebseb> I mean I knew there was a developer week, and that's about it,  plus  I know the channel gets logged in the useual place for the main channels
<sebsebseb> I am  not invovled with any in person  Ubuntu community stuff, if that's what you meant by loco
<jcastro> well, whichever team you want to work with
<jcastro> virtual or otherwise
<egyn> sebsebseb: maybe one could use something like babelfish or whatever to translate the presentation in realtime in another language-irc-room
<jcastro> any other feedback?
 * jcastro is dying to get food at some point
<sebsebseb> egyn: I woudn't rely on  babelfish that  can come out with some rather odd translations at times
<itnet7> Great Job this week everyone!
<IdleOne> !botsnack | jcastro
<ubot2> jcastro: Yum! Err, I mean, APT!
<ubottu> jcastro: Yum! Err, I mean, APT!
<egyn> sebsebseb: i just grabbed an example service out of my head
<jcastro> awesome, thanks again for showing up, feel free to hang out, smoke if you got em!
<egyn> i am sure there are other more suitable
<egyn> it is the idea, not the specific translation solution service i was after
<Jesi> ok, so, what kind of sessions would you like to see next time?
<sebsebseb> jcastro: oh I just saw you had to ban someone
<akgraner> jcastro, thanks for all your hardwork this week as well....  YOU ROCK!!!
<IdleOne> Thank you jcastro, akgraner, pleia2 and everybody else for the great week.
<AlanBell> sebsebseb: which is a good reason for having +m, or it ends up in the logs, or gets edited out, both of which are sub-optimal
<AlanBell> jcastro: thanks!
<akgraner> IdleOne, thanks!!
<sebsebseb> AlanBell: I don't think any of the offical Ubuntu logs get edited, unless there is a very good reason to do it, then they probably will I guess
<kalon33> thanks all :)
<sebsebseb> Yes  thanks,  Ubuntu Open Week is a time, when I think it makes a lot of sense for me to be using IRC.  I also think that Ubuntu Open Week is good for the community.
<airurando> This openweek was EXCELLENT. Something (or several things) for everyone. Very enjoyable. Sincere thanks.:)
<Schendje> Yes, this week was great. :) Couldn't join all the sessions, but luckily there are always logs! Thanks to everyone involved. :)
<kalon33> thanks to everyone
<kalon33> good night :)
<sebsebseb> jcastro: I missed stuff that was put from the beginning of this session.   I didn't really think about it, but that makes sense the open week names, because they went on the web based IRC thing.
<sebsebseb> from should be at
<sebsebseb> jcastro: Thanks for the classroom link, by the way.
<sebsebseb> I guess this will just end up in the IRC channel  log now, not the session log as well. "Unfortunatly I coudn't take part in the KVM session, because this computer doesn't have hardware virtulization."   Well I put a little bit in Classroom Chat for that session.  This message is a bit pointless really, but I felt like putting anyway.
<broreg> d
<broreg> k
* pleia2 changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to:  Ubuntu Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Packaging/Training || Upcoming: TBD || Run 'date -u' in a terminal to find out the UTC time
#ubuntu-classroom 2009-11-07
<R0b0t1> How might I upgrade automake to a higher version?
<R0b0t1> The one I require is not supplied in the sources.
<Jesi> do they have website where thet list sources?
<Moocow1452> Anybody home?
<darkchest_> #ubuntu
<openweek2> whats your Koala Experience ??
<openweek2> AAAAAAAA !!!!!!11
<openweek2> none ??  nobody ??
<darkchest_> ubuntu 9.10. my monitor only shows the max of 640 x 480. How can i add higher resolution
<popey> darkchest_: ask in #ubuntu
<popey> this isnt a support channel
<darkchest_> sorry
<darkchest_> what is this place for?
<darkchest_> popey?
<popey> classroom sessions darkchest_
<popey> which have finished for this week
<darkchest_> popey: o.. thanks
<RJ12> So guys whats the topic?
<jamesey> anyone good with installing ubuntu on an imac?
<RJ12> ugh do you have a intel mac or ppc
<jamesey> intel mac
* popey changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Ubuntu Classroom || Classroom sessions now finished || Support in #ubuntu || https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Packaging/Training || Upcoming: TBD || Run 'date -u' in a terminal to find out the UTC time
<jamesey> intel mac (9,1, early march)
<RJ12> it should be the same as a normal one then
<RJ12> Aww i came when sessions for the last day ended
<RJ12> :(
<jamesey> i guess i have a broadcom wireless driver issue on my imac instead of an imac issue
<nigel_nb> date -u
<popey> not here, in a terminal nigel_nb
<nigel_nb> jamesey: please ask in #ubuntu
<popey> alan@wopr64:~$ date -u
<popey> Sat Nov  7 02:16:15 UTC 2009
<nigel_nb> popey: my bad...;)
<popey> like that
<popey> :)
<nigel_nb> popey: i thought it was a bot, then i read the whole thing...thanks alan
<darkchest_> #ubuntu
<darkchest_> #ubuntu
<jmarsden> darkchest_: Try typing in /join #ubuntu     if you want to join that channel.
<jmarsden> This is #ubuntu-classroom.  There is no class right now.  If you are seeking help about Ubuntu, try in #ubuntu or for servers try asking in #ubuntu-server
<darkchest_> #ubuntu
<jmarsden> darkchest_: Try typing in /join #ubuntu     if you want to join that channel.
<darkchest_> thanks jmarsden
<jmarsden> No problem.
<rosemary> keyboard shortcut to disable desktop effects?
<jmarsden> rosemary: This is #ubuntu-classroom.  There is no class right now.  If you are seeking help about Ubuntu, try in #ubuntu
<fergus> hey
<fergus> hello
<fergus> anyone here
<ferguyr> lol
<jmarsden> ferguyr: This is #ubuntu-classroom.  There is no class right now.  If you are seeking help about Ubuntu, try in #ubuntu
<asdqwe> why my ubuntu dekstop 9.10 no coneect to internet?.
<jmarsden> asdqwe: This is #ubuntu-classroom.  There is no class right now.  If you are seeking help about Ubuntu, try in #ubuntu
 * MenZa hands jmarsden a coffee.
 * jmarsden accepts gratefully :)
 * jmarsden checks his real life coffee mug, which has a little left in it, but it is cold... will need to refill it ...
<MenZa> heh
<nimrod0> is there a log of the activity of "about getting involved in the Ubuntu community" that happened here in the past few days ?
<saji> nimrod0, yes there is.
<saji> nimrod0, You mean about the openweek. Rihgt?
<nimrod0> yes saji
<saji> nimrod0, Wait a minute.
<nimrod0> ok
<saji> nimrod0, Its at- https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs
<nimrod0> thank you very much saji
<saji> nimrod0, No problem. You're welcome.
<kux> hello?
 * popey comments out a bit of UbuntuOpenWeek wiki page to stop people coming here
<Vince___> hoi
<sake> hello
<jmarsden> sake: This is #ubuntu-classroom.  There is no class right now.  If you are seeking help about Ubuntu, try in #ubuntu
<Speculater> I need a couple of things fixed, or explained to me... does anyone have a free minute or two?
<Speculater> I can't make light of what this page is telling me http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=967023
<Speculater> and I want to get sound through my DVI to HDMI cable for my geforce 8800 graphics card
<Speculater> also how do I make sure that I have the latest Nvidia drivers?
<nalioth> Speculater: have you tried #ubuntu or #ubuntuforums ?
<Speculater> ubuntu I get no response, so I thought I'd try here
<nalioth> this is not a support channel, unless someone brings you here for it
<Speculater> ah
<Speculater> I'll try forum
<jaeheme> Greetins...I think I might have missed this.
<hotwax> can anyone help me
<hotwax> i installed ubuntu but i get an error " no such disk" at boot screen
#ubuntu-classroom 2009-11-08
 * jasonjang is away: ìë¦¬ ë¹ìëë¤.
 * jasonjang is back (gone 00:00:01)
 * jasonjang is away: ìë¦¬ ë¹ìëë¤.
<dan_> Hello, does anyone know how to get a Netgear Wireless - G PCI WG311 working in ubuntu ? i have installed the card but ubuntu doesnt pick it up
<dan_> 05:02.0 Ethernet controller [0200]: Marvell Technology Group Ltd. 88w8335 [Libertas] 802.11b/g Wireless [11ab:1faa] (rev 03)
<dan_> 	Subsystem: Netgear Device [1385:6b00]
<dan_> 	Flags: bus master, 66MHz, medium devsel, latency 64, IRQ 4
<dan_> 	Memory at fb7d0000 (32-bit, non-prefetchable) [size=64K]
<dan_> 	Memory at fb7e0000 (32-bit, non-prefetchable) [size=64K]
<dan_> 	Capabilities: <access denied>
<nalioth> dan_: support is in #ubuntu
<allset> Hi
#ubuntu-classroom 2010-11-08
<bruteforce_allti> Fixing FTBFS was supposed to happen on 18 sep..(acco to fb) I am unable to find log http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2010/09/18/%23ubuntu-classroom.html
#ubuntu-classroom 2010-11-09
<Warrens> slt a ts
<Warrens> what is topic?
<nigelb> Warrens: what irc client are you using?
<Warrens> nigelb: emphaty
<Warrens> nigelb: Empathy not emphaty
<Warrens> i sometimes use Pidgin
<nigelb> Warrens: well, typing /topic into your client should show you topic
<nigelb> Topic for #ubuntu-classroom: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule:  http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<nigelb> Warrens: ^^
<oly562> hello
#ubuntu-classroom 2010-11-10
<nigelb> hggdh: hey, I shall take care of it tonight.
<nigelb> Sorry got stuck without a laptop for a few weeks :/
<nigelb> err, wrong room :/
<hggdh> but I got it nigel :-)
<nigelb> hggdh: :)
<Lev_> !!1
<ubot2> Factoid '1' not found
<lev_> ÐÐ»Ñ ÑÐµÐ³Ð¾ ÑÑÐ¾Ñ ÑÐ°Ñ?
<jay_> question: how to use IRC?
<zkriesse> meaning?
#ubuntu-classroom 2010-11-11
<nzbrockstar> i have a start up installation prob
<nzbrockstar> can any one help.
<nzbrockstar> its a very wierd prob..
<Guest10748> Hi all!
#ubuntu-classroom 2010-11-12
<miniplazma> #ubuntu-beginners-dev
#ubuntu-classroom 2010-11-14
<igi> hy
#ubuntu-classroom 2011-11-07
<airurando> sixgun
#ubuntu-classroom 2011-11-08
<Toqero_> sorry bro but iá¸¿ new to linux and want to know how could I got benefit from this
<Guest34950> Alguien habla espaÃ±ol?
<EvilResistance> Guest34950:  En la mayorÃ­a de canales de Ubuntu se habla sÃ³lo en inglÃ©s. Si busca ayuda en espaÃ±ol o charlar entra en el canal #ubuntu-es. Escribe "/join #ubuntu-es" (sin comillas) y dale a enter.
<Guest34950> thank you
#ubuntu-classroom 2011-11-09
<saimanoj> hello.
<saimanoj> why is this channel blank.
<saimanoj> Can anyone teach some thing instead.
<nigelb> This channel is for the classroom project, see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom. Sessions are scheduled every so often.  See the schedule link in /topic.
#ubuntu-classroom 2011-11-10
<ashickur-noor> Hi there
<ashickur-noor> I am new in this channel
<ashickur-noor> Need some help about ubuntu-classroom
<ashickur-noor> Any body here?
<ashickur-noor> AlanBell: Ampelbein: head_victim: ??
<pleia2> ashickur-noor: what can we help you with?
<nigelb> what are you looking for?
<ashickur-noor> Need the schedule of the classroom program
<nigelb> Its in the /topic
<ashickur-noor> nigelb:  Just for confirmation Next program is 18th November?
<EvilResistance> nigelb:  assume that people dont read the topic :p
<nigelb> ashickur-noor: checking
<nigelb> EvilResistance: heh
<ashickur-noor> EvilResistance: yap
<nigelb> Yep, next event is Q and A with Amanda Brock. At least as of nwo
<ashickur-noor> Can I include a subject?
<nigelb> I didn't get you
<EvilResistance> i think he wants to schedule a session...
<EvilResistance> :/
<ashickur-noor> EvilResistance:  right
<ashickur-noor> I see the wiki page
<nigelb> ashickur-noor: You want to talk about something?
<nigelb> OR you want to ask someone talk about a particular subject?
<ashickur-noor> Yap second one
<nigelb> That's harder. We usually handle requests of the first type.
<nigelb> What subject is it anyway?
<ashickur-noor> About remastering of New edition of Ubuntu
 * EvilResistance doesnt think that qualifies as a topic, in his opinion.
<EvilResistance> but i dont have any say :P
<nigelb> You mean about Unity?
<ashickur-noor> no
<ashickur-noor> have you use Remastersys?
<nigelb> Oh. That.
<nigelb> If you can find someone we'd be happy to schedule a session.
<nigelb> In the meanwhile, we'll try askign around to see if anyone is willing to give such a session.
<ashickur-noor> Thnx
<ashickur-noor> need to go
<ashickur-noor> bye
<ashickur-noor> Hi all
<ashickur-noor> need something to know
<ashickur-noor> Did Ubuntu have some thing RHCE?
<ashickur-noor> *Do
<fulcrum> ashickur-noor:  http://www.lpi.org
<ashickur-noor> thnx
<fulcrum> ashickur-noor:  its not ubuntu specific... but it covers methods from .rpm based distros and debian type distros
<ashickur-noor> yap I see it already
<ashickur-noor> Need to go through the site
<fulcrum> there was a small exam for ubuntu stuff.. dont know if its still there...
<ashickur-noor> Is there anything from Ubuntu Foundation?
<fulcrum> http://www.ubuntu.com/news/ubuntucert
<fulcrum> dunno... you can buy training http://www.ubuntu.com/support/training
<ashickur-noor> ok
<balthamaisteri> mo
#ubuntu-classroom 2011-11-12
<aman_> i know C and bash scripting a little bit, how can i contribute?
<aman_> and what is the best way to start contributing?
<pangolin> !contribute
<ubot2> To contribute and help out with Ubuntu, see http://www.ubuntu.com/community/participate and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ContributeToUbuntu
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Current Session: Ubuntu Women Career Days: From Developer to CEO: A Career in Tech - Instructors: silbs
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/11/12/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<pleia2> welcome everyone to the second Ubuntu Women Career Days session :)
<pleia2> this time we're very pround to have Jane Silber (silbs), the CEO of Canonical here to present on her career in tech
<silbs> hi everyone. Thanks for joining us today, and I'm really happy to participate in this Ubuntu Women's series
<pleia2> she'll introduce herself and when you have a question you can ask in #ubuntu-classroom-chat in the format of QUESTION: Do you like pears?
<pleia2> silbs: all yours!
<silbs> :)
<silbs> so, I thought I would give an overview of my career (so far!), talk a little bit about what i've learned during the course of that wrt women in tech
<silbs> we'll definitely have time for questions at the end
<silbs> like many people,I first got interested in computers in high school
<silbs> for me, I didn't really think of it as technology or computers - it was the logical,problem solving aspect of development that I liked
<silbs> I majored in math/comp sci in college
<silbs> and, like many, was in an environment that was almost all male
<silbs> in my case, my college choice exacerbated that a bit because I went to a college that had only turned from all male to co-ed the year before
<silbs> but in many ways, I think that helped because it wasn't just the math/science classes that were male dominated, but all classes
<silbs> and so it quickly became a non-issue (for me, and for most at the school)
<silbs> after college I briefly entertained the idea of finance and other careers like most of my friends, but knew that wasn't right for me
<silbs> so I joined a software start up
<silbs> in a garage in Wash, DC - the whole thing
<silbs> that environment was pretty classic start-up - everyone working hard, doing all sorts of roles beyond your job description
<silbs> I joined as a s/w dev, but also ended up doing a fair amount of research, statistical analysis, data modelling
<silbs> the company developed health risk appraisals - i.e, personalised reports that processed questionnaire data and gave you estimates of chances of getting or dying from different causes
<silbs> I was only there for a couple years, but learned a lot about data, stats, ... and mortality and morbidity :)
<silbs> I left there to go back to grad school - did a MS degree in Management of Technology
<silbs> I did that because I was seeking a broader context for software and technology in a business setting.  I liked programming, and still loved the puzzle/problem-solving aspect
<silbs> but I found that I wanted to see it as part of a larger process
<silbs> and that graduate program provided that for me. One of the things I liked was that it was interdisciplinary, and allowed you to focus on any technology
<silbs> so I focused on comp sci, but others in the program were chemical engineers, electrical engineers, etc
<silbs> and we looked at mgt principles across technologies
<silbs> after that, I went to Japan for 2.5 yrs and worked as a software dev/researcher/manager
<silbs> that company was an established company (synthetic fibers, pharmaceuticals) that wanted to get into s/w as a new line of business
<silbs> to help that, they set up a special software R&D institute,and I was fortunate enough to be a part of it
<silbs> this was a really formative experience for me, in a number of ways
<silbs> the fact that it was a different culture, the fact that I was a woman in what was (esp at that time) a very male-dominated environment
<silbs> it was probably the first time I was faced with overt examples of sexism, but it was also informative for me to consider how they came about and what was considered such in different cultures
<silbs> i never personally felt discriminated against, but there were certainly uncomfortable elements (e.g., reps of corporate suppliers would stop by the office with little gifts for employees, and one supplier in particular always gave calendars w/ pictures of naked women. So these calendars were all over the office!)
<silbs> to be fair, that was quite a while ago and I don't think they would do that today. But it was ... interesting!
<silbs> that experience was also my first management experience. I was asked to manage one of the new recruits
<silbs> it was clear he wasn't really thrilled with being managed by someone he had to speak English with, and esp a woman.  We struggled at first, but I eventually learned that it was because he thought it would hurt his future career
<silbs> i.e., I clearly wasn't going to be around forever and he felt that he wouldn't get the same career help recognition from me as he would have from a male, Japanese manager.
<silbs> I am omitting a lot from the story, but it was a learning experience for me in terms of understanding people's motivations, my own pre-conceptions, and especially the danger of only seeing what you are looking for
<silbs> I left Japan after a few years, returned to the Wash, DC area and got a job with a small s/w company
<silbs> at that time I really just needed a paycheck, and so while I wasn't excited about the company (a defense contractor), I decided to take the role for 6 months while I sorted out what I really wanted to do
<silbs> you all know the "best laid plans.." saying, so while I planned to stay for 6 months, I stayed for 8 years
<silbs> I joined as a s/w engineer, moved in to team management roles and eventually became VP of the company
<silbs> that period was my "stretch role" - I want to say something about "strech roles" later on
<silbs> it was during this period that I became more interested in the business element, the human elements, what it take around the technology to create a successful company, than in the s/w or technology itself
<silbs> after 8 yrs, we sold that company to General Dynamics and I spent a further 2 yrs at GD
<silbs> in search of a career break (remember I started that role not knowing "what I really wanted to do"!), I moved to England and studied for a yr at Oxford
<silbs> following that year, I moved to London, met Mark Shuttleworth through a mutual friend, and joined Canonical about a week after meeting Mark
<silbs> I joined as COO in the summer of 2004 (Canonical started in April 2004), became CEO in Mar of last year
<silbs> so that's the quick summary.  At the time I never really knew what I ws doing next - I wasn't one of those people with a career plan mapped out at every step of the way
<silbs> but as I look back, I can see the important elements and how so much contributes to who I am and what I'm doing today.
<silbs> e.g., always software at its core, international, a real interest in not just the technology for the sake of technology but how it fits in context of a larger organisation, etc
<silbs> A couple more points, and then we'll do questions.  There is a lot written about girls/women in science and technology.
<silbs> And I don't subscribe to a single, simple theory abotu what is right or wrong or how to fix it.
<silbs> I think the drivers of the current situation and the ways to change it are multi-faceted and complex.
<silbs> but there are a couple things that I have read over the years, that really fits with my experience.   And so I thought I would just call them out
<silbs> studies show that:
<silbs> - men are more confident in the work place
<silbs> - women express more self doubt about their abilities
<silbs> - men are more likely to apply for jobs that they know they are not fully qualified for
<silbs> (sorry, I mean in comparison to women applying for jobs they know they are not fully qualified for.
<silbs> I don't mean "in comparison to jobs they are qualified for")
<silbs> - people doing hiring are more likely to judge men based on potential (e.g., "he's got the core skills, he could do it"), and more likely to judge women based on experience (e.g., "she's never done this before")
<silbs> and, finally, that in many/most people's careers, there is a pivotal "stretch job"
<silbs> this is true in many fields, not just technology. It's the job that really pushes you beyond what you've done before.
<silbs> It may be an overseas assignment, cleaning up a failing project, a turnaround on a big account, managing a team of people who are doing roles that you aren't an expert in
<silbs> no real pattern to what it is, but it is often a career accelerator or a missed opportunity
<silbs> and for some of the reasons I mentioned above, men are more likely to get those "stretch roles" than women
<silbs> (it's actually even more complicated,because these roles often happen in someone's early 30s - i.e, the years when women take time to have children)
<silbs> but if I were to offer an (unsolicited advice), it would be to be open minded, to look for the stretch roles if that's what you want, to remember that you don't have to have done everything before.
<silbs> I do believe that you see what you're looking for (e.g, the classic "count the basketball passes" video), and if you are open to the opportunities, you will both find them and, frankly, make them
<silbs> okay, that's all I wanted to say. Questions?
<ClassBot> mhall119 asked: What was the hardest part about transitioning from a s/w developer into a management role?
<silbs> for me, it was learning to not solve all the problems myself.
<silbs> remember, I have a strong problem-solving gene. That's what attracted me to s/w in the first place
<ClassBot> Cheri703 asked: in relation to having "a real interest in not just the technology for the sake of technology but how it fits in context of a larger organisation"  When seeking careers along those lines, is it more important to have a working knowledge or the degree/certification? If the degree/cert, which? from where? (are there non-graduate programs that offer the more rounded knowledge?) If the working knowledge, at what point do peopl
<silbs> and you certainly solve problems as a manager, but you also have to prioritise other things around buidling an effective team
<pleia2> question cut off, continues: e consider a level of experience to be "enough"?
<silbs> good question
<silbs> I find having  a technical background very valuable in the mgt roles (and non-technical roles) that I have done
<silbs> I know many manager and other contributors in a technical environment who don't have that background and who are very effective, but if they don't have that background, they must have an affinity, an interest, a "gee, that's cool" aspect to it
<silbs> i think someone for whom the technology is just another domain and might as well be flower arranging, won't be as effective
<silbs> I personally don't put much weight into degrees/certification, but I do think that having something that proves your interest is important
<silbs> that could be a degree, or it could be experience, etc
<silbs> (I realise that it's a bit rich for me to say I don't put much stock in degrees when I have several.  I am glad that I did each, but I did them for specific reasons at the time, not with the end goal of the degree)
<silbs> there are certainly degree programs that offer that "well-rounded" aspect - that's one of the reasons I did the Mgt of Technology program
<silbs> I wasn't interested in a Comp Sci masters
<silbs> at the time I went, there were about 14 similar, interdisciplinary programs around the country
<silbs> (the country = the US)
<silbs> i am not up to speed on them now, but I am sure they (or others) exist
<ClassBot> Pendulum asked: In your experience specifically and in your opinion about technical management in general, how important is it to have extensive programming experience when it comes to managing teams in a tech company?
<pleia2> I guess this one is sort of answered now, but anything to add?
<silbs> As I said, i don't think it is critical.  I think  having an affinity for tech is important.  One of the things that managers have to learn is that inevitably you will be asked to manage a team with skills you don't have
<silbs> this usually doesn't happen in your first mgt role. Typically, new managers manage a group of people with the same skills
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<ClassBot> catbus1 asked: Can you talk more about how you got the opportunity to transition from a tech role to mgmt role? Did you have to sell yourself very hard to prove that you had the potential?
<silbs> but being a good manager means being able to understand the issues enough, and the team, and the goals and everytihng else well enough to be an effective leader without necessarily having the skills to do the work
<silbs> catbus1: I was fortunate in that in my first mgt role I was asked to do manage someone, rather than my seeking it
<silbs> that was teh role in Japan, and they wanted me to do it because they specifically wanted me to pass on my way of thinking to new recruits
<silbs> the wanted their new star recruits to have exposure to an english speaker (not something I can take much credit for), to an American way of thinking about software (I can take a little credit for that)
<silbs> so I got lucky.  When I returned the US, I started again as a s/w dev and then moved into a mgt role
<silbs> in that role, I did seek it
<silbs> and had to interview, be selected, etc.  But I was qualified, and while I hadn't managed a team before (and frankly didn't know the defense domain that well at that time), my manager made the right choice :)
<ClassBot> mhall119 asked: I have a young daugher, and I know that as she grows she'll face social pressures to not be "geeky", but I want her to keep her interest in science and technology, any advice?
<silbs> I was able to get that stretch role, to be judged on my potential, to learn how to lead teams for which I didn't have all the skills (e.g., I started managing the Finance dept in that company)
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<silbs> mhall119: my best advice is to give her confidence.
<silbs> to trust herself, to know what she likes (rather than others), to make decisions
<silbs> easier said than done, i am sure, but that's the best I can offer!
<ClassBot> JanC asked: isn't it *easier* in some ways to manage people who have different skills than your own?  As in, you can't fall into the trap of wanting to do everything yourself?  âº
<silbs> JanC: I think it depends on the situation.  In my current role, it is easy for me to accept that I don't have the skills that everyone in Canonical has :)
<silbs> but often in a smaller team, the team is looking for and needs not just people-management but also sound technical decision-making
<silbs> in many companies/teams, it is the manager who is expected to provide both of those
<ClassBot> pleia2 asked: Are you a part of any technical career organizations (think USENIX, ACM) or specifically women in tech organizations (WITI, Women in Tech), do you find value in them?
<silbs> in Canonical, we try to have a manager and a tech lead as different roles in order to clarify and emphasis the importance of both of those functions, and recognise that it is rare that it's the same person who is the best fit for both
<silbs> we don't do that in every single team, but we do in most
<silbs> pleia2: I was (and supposed I still am) in a network called Systers
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/11/12/%23ubuntu-classroom.html
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat ||
<silbs> very efficient classbot!
<pleia2> ah, hit the end of the hour!
<silbs> I finished with
<silbs> (17:00:13) silbs: I lurked on mailing lists more than particpated actively, but I found value in the lurking
<pleia2> thanks so much for joining us, this was a great session
<Pendulum> silbs: Thank you!
<silbs> thanks everyone, and esp to Ubuntu Women for organising this!
#ubuntu-classroom 2011-11-13
<mahadeer_> Hello
<mahadeer_> can any one tell me how to calculate sin wave in matlab
<local> hello
<local> It's first time that I have been here
<local> It's amazing
<local> nobody?
<Snicksie> im here local :)
<local> support Chinese?
<local> Good!
<local> nice to see you,you are so lovely
<rsajdok> 
#ubuntu-classroom 2012-11-06
<nwoki> hi guys, i'm having a problem with the terminal encoding
<nwoki> I want the terminal to be with the "C" encoding but I can't manage to obtain this
<nwoki> any ideas?
<TheLordOfTime> nwoki, ask in #ubuntu
<danieltlx> Hello, I'm trying to install phantom.js on remote ubuntu 10.04 x64 server. I'm accessing it using gitbash from my pc. I did download the .bz2 file, using "wget". how do I install it now? what should be done? do I need to "run" it ? thanks.
#ubuntu-classroom 2012-11-08
<StijnBrouwers> 2
<StijnBrouwers> exit
#ubuntu-classroom 2013-11-07
<glad> hi guys i'm new here and i've no sound on edubuntu 13.04 any help pls
#ubuntu-classroom 2014-11-07
<Cyric> ciao!
#ubuntu-classroom 2015-11-08
<linuxn00b1> what is this chat for?
