#ubuntu-doc 2004-12-20
<lulu> Documentation BOF in progress at the Conference
<lulu> Notes will be posted today and will be linked to from the Conference Agenda.
<sivang> lulu : do you have anything he has already done ( ofer wiseglass) anything about his interests etc? :)
<lulu> yes - lots :o) I'll send you a mail and you guys can get in touch.
<sivang> lulu : ah great ! 
<sivang> lulu : you know if daf already created the "Hebrew" section in rosseta?
<lulu> it's not a Hebrew section per se. You ask for a package to be uploaded that you want to translate. Select the language you are interested in and then check the package for translated and untranslated messages and start translating.
<lulu> sivang:Daf will need to set you up with an account on the dogfood server.
<sivang> daf : great!
<sivang> daf : I'll talk to him after this then
* sid77 hi
<cenerentola> sid77
<cenerentola> cioa
<cenerentola> ...ciao
<cenerentola> smetti di tradurre gli howto
<cenerentola> sorry... wrong channel
<sid77> uh?
* sid77 re
* netjoined: irc.freenode.net -> niven.freenode.net
* sid77 re
<plovs> hornbeck, hi!
<sivang> yo horny! whassup dude?
<sivang> :)
<hornbeck> hey
<hornbeck> hows the conference
<hornbeck> +
<hornbeck> ?
<hornbeck> gotta run
<sivang> amazing
<sivang> really
* sid77 hi
#ubuntu-doc 2004-12-21
<plovs> ChrisH, are you around, could you come over to the big hall?
<ChrisH> plovs: I'm in the bof room currently.
<ChrisH> plovs: but I plan to only attend this bof and the keysigning later and spend some time off-bof :)
<ChrisH> plovs: weather is very good, wife is a little bored and it's the last full day I can spend at the beach :)
<jiyuu0> lulu, hello
<jiyuu0> regarding the short paragraph
<jiyuu0> i've sent to the ubuntu-users list
<jiyuu0> u can find the same here
<jiyuu0> http://jiyuu0.blogspot.com/2004/12/introducing-httpubuntuguideorg.html
<lulu> jiyuu0: Hiya...ok thanks!
* jiyuu0 not sure whether is that what lulu wants...
<jiyuu0> :)
* lulu goes to look
* jiyuu0 going home... 
<lulu> jiyuu0: that's fine. We are doing an update on the site - as soon as it's up we'll add this link.
<Burgundavia_> hey lulu?
<lulu> Burgundavia_: what a nic! Hiya :o)
<lulu> howzit going down there?
<Burgundavia_> I was wondering if anyone needs a roomate
<lulu> quite possible - let's take this offline.
<plovs> https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/WelcomeToPython
<plovs> sivang, does it work?
<sivang> plovs : yes it does.
<sivang> thanks
<sivang> I do not know how to insert the right id etc
<sivang> to create a new page,
<sivang> you have to do something with parenting it
<plovs> sivang, i'll show you later, just remind me
<sivang> ok, thanks
<Burgundavia_> how is repo going?
<plovs> Burgundavia_, no good yet
<Burgundavia_> ok
<sivang> plovs : I need the key :)
<plovs> sivang, i am coming down
<sivang> ok , thanks :)
<jiyuu0> Spanish Translation: http://guia-ubuntu.org/ (By: Gabriel)
<Burgundavia_> salut
<sivang> lulu : we should probably also open a ubuntu-he list
<lulu> sivang:good - set it up!
<sivang> lulu : how ;O)
<lulu> I have created #ubuntu-he. It's set up - if you want to register it, /msg chanserv help and there will be instructions there.One of you will then need to admin it.
<lulu> sivang: to set up any channel you go /join #channelname
<sivang> plovs : let me know when you wanna go
#ubuntu-doc 2004-12-22
<ChrisH> Hey, guys... :)
* ChrisH is back home
<jiyuu0> ya
<ChrisH> Some conf photos I took: http://gallery.workaround.org/Ubuntu-Conference-Mataro
#ubuntu-doc 2004-12-23
<plovs> jiyuu0, awake?
<jiyuu0> yub
<jiyuu0> it's 9:17am
<plovs> ok, i am just replying to you on the mailing-list :0)
<plovs> about your license question
<jiyuu0> john?
<plovs> no i am alex
<jiyuu0> ok
<plovs> john is hornbeck online, but he's not here
<jiyuu0> oh
<plovs> i liked your site, well done
<jiyuu0> thanks :)
<plovs> you like using ubuntu?
<jiyuu0> yub
<jiyuu0> nice
<jiyuu0> i like it to be neat and light
<plovs> yes i like that as well
<plovs> i am running hoary atm the new version, it is going to be really nice
<plovs> we are in barcelona at the ubuntu conference with many of the developers
<jiyuu0> my colleague has tried it before... seems quite a number of improvement on the networkin side
<jiyuu0> right click -> share
<jiyuu0> ubuntu conference... nice
<jiyuu0> how many ppl attending?
<plovs> the first week we had some 50 people, next week there will be more
<plovs> i will not be there i go home tomorow :-(
<jiyuu0> so what u all do doing the conference?
<plovs> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/ConfAgenda
<plovs> all kinds of things
<sivang> we've had a couple of documentation oriented bofs,
<sivang> look for the summeris 
<sivang> on the wiki
<plovs> talking about what is needed, trying to get new stuff implemented
* jiyuu0 checking...
<plovs> sivang, was there as well, we share a room actually, he is 2 meters away
<jiyuu0> seems like lot's of activities
<sivang> :)
<plovs> yes, we hope the next ubuntu will be even better
<sivang> yeah it was a very loaded week
<sivang> and will include LOTS of new good documentation
<plovs> jiyuu0, what kind of club are you thinking about starting?
<jiyuu0> open source community club
<jiyuu0> for now we are going to promote ubuntu
<jiyuu0> targetin our next generation to learn open source / linux
<plovs> cool!
<jiyuu0> here in malaysia, we are still new in these things
<plovs> did you order cd's?
<hornbeck> hello
<jiyuu0> but our government has start initiative
<jiyuu0> plovs, yub 5k of em
<jiyuu0> hello hornbeck
<jiyuu0> just got ur mail
<plovs> hornbeck, he man, nice to see you!
<hornbeck> hello, I just sent another :-)
* jiyuu0 checkin...
<plovs> jiyuu0, 5k, cool!
<jiyuu0> for a start
<plovs> hornbeck, tomorrow we go home, but the conference was great
<jiyuu0> this coming week going to a big college... college helping us to push..
<jiyuu0> and they have 4k students
<jiyuu0> eeeks
<hornbeck> plovs: glad to hear it
<plovs> maybe you should try to get government funding
<jiyuu0> ya... maybe later stage
<jiyuu0> for now... we can still manage
<jiyuu0> we got some funds allocated
<plovs> hornbeck, did sb tell you about the quick guide?
<hornbeck> sb?
<plovs> hornbeck, somebody
<hornbeck> no
<hornbeck> what is the quick guide?
<sivang> yo hornbeck dude!
<plovs> hornbeck, for hoary, they would like a guide, 6000 pages
<sivang> where have ya been ?? :)
<jiyuu0> hornbeck, wehre i can get info on lgpl?
<sivang> gnu.org
<sivang> basically
<jiyuu0> ok
<hornbeck> sivang: I have been working
<hornbeck> new job
<plovs> hornbeck, introductionary for new users, info about all major apps, plus what is new and cool
<sivang> ah right so I heared :) congretulations@
<sivang> !
<plovs> hornbeck, how is the new job?
<hornbeck> plovs: 6000 words?
<hornbeck> plovs: new job is rocking
<hornbeck> just ordered a 12inch ibook
<hornbeck> boss bought it so I can learn mac
<hornbeck> so things are going real good
<hornbeck> :-)
<plovs> hornbeck, cool! mac is pretty nice, but i bet you'll dual boot oon enough, i know i would if i could
<hornbeck> plovs: is there a outline for this new guide yet?
<plovs> hornbeck, yes 6000 words, that is not a lot. And our dead-line is feb 2005
<hornbeck> is there a outline?
<plovs> hornbeck, yes i have an outline i will mail it to you
<hornbeck> good
<hornbeck> I can start if I have a outline
* plovs tarring and mailing
<hornbeck> are we still working on the main userguide?
<jiyuu0> lpgl http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/lesser.html so long to read :(
<hornbeck> jiyuu0: yes it is long
<plovs> jiyuu0, you'll be really smart by the time you finish it
<jiyuu0> oh boy
<hornbeck> man people have been dropping from the mailing list fast
<hornbeck> I have had at least 5 unsubscribes today
<plovs> hornbeck, to gmail or freeshell?
<plovs> hornbeck, from the doc-list?
<hornbeck> freeshell
<hornbeck> my postfix broke in hoary, so I am having to use gmail to send out
<plovs> hornbeck, ok
<plovs> hornbeck, ok, send it
<plovs> hornbeck, did thay unsubscribe from the doc-list?
<hornbeck> yes
<hornbeck> plovs: are we still doing the regular userguide?
<plovs> yes, bigger and more deep material
<plovs> but for the quick guide we have a deadline
<hornbeck> ok
<jiyuu0> u guys ubuntu staff?
<hornbeck> plovs and I are maintainers, but noone on the doc team is paid
<hornbeck> at least not yet :-)
<jiyuu0> so who set the deadlines?
<hornbeck> the devs
<hornbeck> I am guessing
<jiyuu0> ic
<hornbeck> I was not there
<plovs> yes, so the translators can finish it in time as well
<plovs> they really want this in the system
<hornbeck> plovs: which file is the quick guide
<plovs> userguide
<hornbeck> inside quick it is empty
<hornbeck> ahh
<hornbeck> ok, plovs: I will start working with this
<hornbeck> are you going to create another directory inside the svn and upload this
<hornbeck> >
<hornbeck> ?
<plovs> hornbeck, could you clean up the thing and put it in svn?
<hornbeck> yes
<hornbeck> I will do that now
<plovs> and rename it to quickguide
<hornbeck> I will be away for a sec
<plovs> ok
<plovs> jiyuu0, did you ever do any docbook?
<jiyuu0> nope
<plovs> it is not hard, but that is what we use for our docs, would you be interested in helping?
<jiyuu0> sure
<jiyuu0> but i'm still kindof stuck with the existing guide
<plovs> you might want to look how you can put it into the userguide and then export that to html and post it
<plovs> to your site as well
<jiyuu0> sure will
<jiyuu0> currently some ppl r already workin on translation
<plovs> john send you the svn link right?
<jiyuu0> yes
<plovs> what do you think would you agree putting it in docbook and then put it in svn?
<plovs> it is kind of a cool short hackerguide
<plovs> between the quickguide we do now and the real userguide we're working on as well
<hornbeck> it is all added
<hornbeck> just needs some cleaning
<plovs> hornbeck, super
<plovs> hornbeck, i like jiyuu0 guide, it is quite short but with lots of stuff
<hornbeck> I love it
<hornbeck> that is why I posted about it
<hornbeck> :-)
<plovs> we should have it in yelp
<hornbeck> yes we should
<plovs> that together with the quickguide might give us a good base
<jiyuu0> reading the license half way... these things really want to confuse ppl
<hornbeck> I think we should wait till the repository is moved before adding to svn though
<plovs> jiyuu0, what do you think?
<jiyuu0> ok
<jiyuu0> sounds good to me
<hornbeck> jiyuu0: I am glad you are a easy going guy :-)
<hornbeck> I would have flipped on some of the post about your guide
<jiyuu0> i'm glad ubuntu community is easy on me
<jiyuu0> unlike others
<plovs> jiyuu0, most of us are
<hornbeck> ubuntu is a good community, that is why I am here
<plovs> at least we try
<jiyuu0> true
<hornbeck> brb, need a drink
<plovs> Burgundavia_, he corey, where are you?
<Burgundavia_> busy working on doc. I am not feeling very well
<jiyuu0> then u shud take some rest...
<Burgundavia_> I just did some prelim work on the quick guid
<jiyuu0> it's sun
<Burgundavia_> I slept most of the day
<plovs> Burgundavia_, the quick guide is in svn :-)
<Burgundavia_> ok, I will pull it down
<plovs> Burgundavia_, so we can start to collaborate on it
* jiyuu0 installing subversion... haven tried it b4
<plovs> and i will make an initial version of jiyuu0's fabulous guide as well, in docbook i mean
<Burgundavia_> is it under quickguide or quick?
<jiyuu0> and i'll keep a change log from my side to ease what's been updated
<plovs> Burgundavia_, ask john, when he is back
<plovs> jiyuu0, cool, and when we have it ported you can maybe work with us in svn
<jiyuu0> sure
<plovs> docbook can be exported to html and look just like it does now
<Burgundavia_> ok
<Burgundavia_> It is under to same server as the faq?
<jiyuu0> svn co http://69.155.172.150/faq
<jiyuu0> where's the documents stored
<plovs> Burgundavia_, the server is the same, just another folder
<plovs> so not faq but ?? i don't know
<plovs> just a sec
* jiyuu0 found the solution
<jiyuu0> this yelp thin seems cool
<plovs> jiyuu0, try to open the file in the faq directory with yelp
<Burgundavia_> Regarding the quick guide, I had a though that at the beginning of the section on each piece of software, we could have a section on common tasks, such as save and open
<plovs> Burgundavia_, remember 6000 words, that is not much, and not too many pics
<plovs> Burgundavia_, we should start describing what app to use for what, and then see how much pace we have left
<plovs> Burgundavia_, longer articles should go in the userguide
<sivang> we should try to make it task oriented in a sense that doesn't emphasizes the menu inteface action, but rather "write a letter", "publish a photo sort of thing"
<hornbeck> well, good to talk to you guys but I am going to a movie
<hornbeck> I will be on and working on the new guide so keep your svn updated
<hornbeck> later
<plovs> hornbeck, wait, what is the link to the quick guide?
<hornbeck> http://69.155.172.150/faq
<hornbeck> same svn repos
<hornbeck> just under quickguide
<hornbeck> I thought you wanted it in the same
<hornbeck> I can create a different one
<plovs> hornbeck, ok, thanks, have a nice movie!
<hornbeck> do you want it seperate?
<plovs> hornbeck, just being dense on this side, no problem
<hornbeck> ok
<plovs> :-)
<hornbeck> that way we can move the quickguide stuff into the userguide as we go
<hornbeck> since they will hold alot of the same info
<hornbeck> all in one place
<plovs> hornbeck, cool
<plovs> and the new faq2 as well (current working title for jiyuu0's doc)
<jiyuu0> :)
<jiyuu0> i've started workin on 2.1
<Burgundavia_> plovs, are going to upload that quickguide mockup you made into there?
<jiyuu0> re-arranged some topics
<jiyuu0> it shouldn't be a problem for u right?
<plovs> Burgundavia_, it is in the link a little up under quickguide
<hornbeck> plovs: lets hold on the new repositories till we move to the ubuntu server
<hornbeck> right now we will keep quickguide in the faq directory
<plovs> hornbeck, yes, as that is not going to be too soon anyway
<hornbeck> right
<plovs> there is some new super-duper arch tool cannical made and we might be using that but i want a course first :-)
<plovs> and we'll get one (online) in januari
<hornbeck> nice
<plovs> jiyuu0, no problem, we can finalize details later
<jiyuu0> ok
<Burgundavia_> plovs, I don't see any .xml file in the dir quickguide
* plovs checks it out
<hornbeck> later
<Burgundavia_> cya
<plovs> hornbeck, seeya!
<plovs> Burgundavia_, it is in the faq topdir
<Burgundavia_> I see users guide
<Burgundavia_> I also dont see it under the quickguide dir
<plovs> it is the userguide, it needs to be renamed
<Burgundavia_> ah, ok
<Burgundavia_> ah I see, it has undergone some major rethinking in the last few day
<plovs> Burgundavia_, i tink it is a misstake
<plovs> i think he dumped it in the wrong folder
<Burgundavia_> is the usersguide.xml the users or the quick guide then?
<plovs> Burgundavia_, it is spagetti atm, i need to sleep goodnight!
<Burgundavia_> ok
<Burgundavia_> see you tomorrow
<plovs> :-)
<jiyuu0> nite
<plovs> jiyuu0, nite
<hornbeck> anyone around?
<hornbeck> going to bed
<hornbeck> night
<Burgundavia_> hornbeck, ?
* sid77 hi
<Kinnison> Evening
<ChrisH> Kinnison: Hi...
<ChrisH> Kinnison: No Marina for today? :)
<Kinnison> ChrisH: we ate out at around 5 and then ate a pizza while playing Mao
<ChrisH> Kinnison: Ah, second mega-BOF day, eh?
<Kinnison> Naah; just breaking in another virgin
* Kinnison should get a doc-team member to write out a transcript of a game of Mao
<ChrisH> I don't whether pl0vs or sivang have taken part in any game. :)
<Kinnison> sivang has
<ChrisH> They have probably left today.
<Kinnison> sivang certainly left today
* Kinnison got him to promise to teach me hebrew
<ChrisH> Kinnison: You are really into languages. :)
* Kinnison nods
* Kinnison has been learning
<Kinnison> He was impressed that I had managed to learn to spell ""
<Kinnison> Which is 'moon' in hebrew
<ChrisH> Wife just reminded me that you asked for the tongue twister...
<ChrisH> "Fischers Fritze fischt frische Fische."
<ChrisH> The other one is "Der Whiskey-Mixer mixt wrzigen Whiskey." :)
<Kinnison> Okay; so I think the first means "Fischer's frying place use fresh fish" or something
<Kinnison> The latter confuses me :-)
<Kinnison> although I appear to be able to pronounce them both :-)
<ChrisH> It's like "Fishers Fritze (a name) fishes for fresh fish."
<Kinnison> Right
<ChrisH> The other one is "The whiskey mixer mixes spicy whiskey."
<ChrisH> Another one from my wife: "Zwischen zwei Zwetschgenzweigen zwitschern zwei zwitschernde Schwalben." Just don't ask me for a translation. That one is for exercise. :)
<Kinnison> heh
#ubuntu-doc 2004-12-24
<enrico> Good morning people!
<enrico> I imagine you are all still sleeping at this time, though
<enrico> However, I wanted to send some HIs, telling you that I got to Taiwan, I got a new laptop and I'm bringing it online
<enrico> Actually, with Ubuntu it installs out of the box, but I generally use Debian My Way and it takes a bit more
<enrico> see you later!
<Kinnison> Morning
<ChrisH> Hey, folks...
<Kinnison> Hi Chris
<ChrisH> Hi, Dave... :)
* Kinnison inverts ChrisH
<Kinnison> ChrisH: try /whois
<ChrisH> You can't do that, Dave!
<ChrisH> I was David Bowman.
* Kinnison sighs
<Kinnison> you're a silly silly man :-)
<ChrisH> I'm severely tired...
<ChrisH> Just had yesterday to recover from the journey. And a friend came by to ask which Linux flavor he should talk to get an easy desktop. So much for the Sunday. :)
<Kinnison> Heh
<ChrisH> s/talk/take/
* ChrisH seriously needs more caffeine
<plovs_work> hi guys
<jiyuu0> plovs_work, hello
<jiyuu0> is this disclamer ok?
<jiyuu0> Permission is granted to copy, distribute and/or modify this document for non commercial purpose, so long as all appropriate credit is provided, including author's name and original URL. The author makes no claim to the accuracy of the information provided. This information is provided in the hope that it will be useful, but WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY. Use this information at your own risk. Always make proper backups and use caution when modifying critical 
<jiyuu0> system files.
<Burgundavia_> hello all
<jiyuu0> hello
<Kinnison> Marning Burgundavia_ 
<lulu> hi all :o)
<Burgundavia_> Kinnison, ??
<Burgundavia_> anybody object if I set up a baz archive, as I don't have commit access to the svn archive
<ChrisH> Burgundavia_: Hi, Corey... can you set up that baz repo on the Canonical servers? Someone from Canonical promised to offer a sandbox.
<Kinnison> For now, it'll be best for corey to do the archive on his machine I guess
<Kinnison> We don't have an official place for it
<Burgundavia_> is the userguide currently the quickguide?
<Kinnison> baz is good enough that once you have an official place for it; you just branch it into the official place and everyone works from there instead
<ChrisH> Burgundavia_: No, the user guide is the large document. The quick guide does not yet have a place afaik.
<ChrisH> Kinnison: Sounds good.
<Burgundavia_> ChrisH, does the quickguide exist yet?
* ChrisH wishes he could have stayed for the baz BOF
<Kinnison> So I should help Burgundavia_ set up an archive for working on the quick-guide stuff?
<Kinnison> Baz is pretty simple in the basic use-case
<ChrisH> Burgundavia_: Alex has started it already. But I think it's not committed yet.
<Burgundavia_> yes, I saw alex working on it
<Kinnison> Is alex still here?
<ChrisH> Don't think so. He's online as plovs_work 
<ChrisH> Kinnison, Burgundavia_: Yes, would be great if you too create a baz repo.
<Burgundavia_> ok can do
<ChrisH> Is there already some basic information on a Wiki page on how to work with it? Like the 10 most frequently used commands or a simple transition guide for CVS/SVN users? I'd appreciate that.
<Burgundavia_> check out the doc that can be installed with baz
<Kinnison> ChrisH: I tell you what. I'll get Burgundavia_ to write a "quick start for baz for docteam" doc
<Kinnison> bwuahahahaha
<Burgundavia_> ahhh
<ChrisH> :)
<ChrisH> Isn't there a baz BOF these days that someone can take notes at?
<Kinnison> Mako is taking notes IIRC
<ChrisH> Good.
<enrico> Hello!  Who's left at the conference?
* Kinnison raises his hand
<enrico> Kinnison: welcome in ubuntu-doc!
<enrico> all the others have left already?
<Kinnison> enrico: Now; don't take my presence as meaning that I want to write docs :-)
* Kinnison is helping Burgundavia_ with baz
<enrico> Burgundavia_: welcome in ubuntu-doc!
<ChrisH> enrico: Hey... :)
<Burgundavia_> I have set up a baz archive and have started working on the quickguide
<Kinnison> Woohoo!
<Kinnison> I *would* teach him how to make a mirror; but he lacks any webspace of use
* Kinnison attempts to pimp Pepperfish at Burgundavia_ 
<enrico> ChrisH: hey!
<Kinnison> Burgundavia_: You want Pepperfish hosting. Mmmmm Pepperfish
<enrico> Kinnison: pepperfish?
<Burgundavia_> that is Kinnison's hosting company
<enrico> oh, cool!  Does he give out free hosting? :)
<Kinnison> No :-)
<plovs_work> hi guys, sorry for being away, work is really work sometimes
<plovs_work> jiyuu0, welcome to license-hell
<jiyuu0> ya
<jiyuu0> so long to read
<jiyuu0> and confusing
<plovs_work> jiyuu0, and what you wrote is still not free enough, i'm afraid
<jiyuu0> wow
<jiyuu0> maybe i'll take it out... no license
<plovs_work> jiyuu0, no go, you need some sort of license :-)
<jiyuu0> sigh
<plovs_work> jiyuu0, but we can work something out
<plovs_work> jiyuu0, now you know where all the lawyer jokes coe from
<plovs_work> come from
<plovs_work> it's all their fault
<jiyuu0> haha
<jiyuu0> i think i'll just put whatever i've modified today
<jiyuu0> then later wait for ppl to suggest
<jiyuu0> at least better than my previous disclaimer
<enrico> plovs_work: hi!  Are you back to work already?
<enrico> what is the license problem?
<plovs_work> enrico, hi! yes back at work, how is Taiwan?
<plovs_work> enrico, jiyuu0 is trying to find a license for his work, without being beaten up
<enrico> plovs_work: quite nice!  Very warm, cheap laptops (I finally got a new one)
<plovs_work> enrico, about time :-)
<enrico> plovs_work: what are the requirements?  GFDL?  Some free version of CreativeCommons?
<plovs_work> jiyuu0, enrico knows more about licenses then most of us
<jiyuu0> plovs_work, yes... givin but still got crusify
<plovs_work> jiyuu0, that is license-hell for you, for fun say GFDL is not free on #debian-legal
<jiyuu0> how can free not free
<jiyuu0> some ppl just like to debate
<enrico> debian-legal is generally a bit of a mess
<plovs_work> enrico, what is a good license for docs?
<plovs_work> enrico, and why?
<enrico> however, it may be that Debian and FSF sort the mess and something will be solved
<plovs_work> enrico, i think they will, it is really knit-picking they are doing atm
<enrico> plovs_work: a good license depends on what you want to do with it
<plovs_work> jiyuu0, so what do you want to do with it?
<plovs_work> what are your requirements?
<jiyuu0> give it away for free... do whatever u like.. give some credit... and not use for commercial
<plovs_work> enrico, it is about http://ubuntuguide.org/ btw
<plovs_work> enrico, could we use material license under such a license?
<plovs_work> enrico, i would like to use the material if all parties agree, it is really good
<Burgundavia_> If it is non-commercial, can we still include that in our stuff?
<plovs_work> Burgundavia_, still in Spain?
<Burgundavia_> yep
<Burgundavia_> I don't know if you caught it, but I am actively working on the quick guide on my machine
<jiyuu0> Burgundavia_, wuld non-commercial be an issue?
<enrico> jiyuu0: uh, non commercial is quite a requirement.  For example, GFDL allows commercial redistribution (that is, selling it) as long as when you buy it, it is still free software (that is, you can modify it, sell it, give it away and so on)
<Burgundavia_> I don't know
<Burgundavia_> I will go find a Canonical person and clear it
<plovs_work> jiyuu0, for example if we would put it on the cd, we want to be able to sell the cd
<jiyuu0> enrico, so if they take it... just change the name... print it and sell... it's ok?
<Burgundavia_> jiyuu0, and they give you credit also
<jiyuu0> plovs_work, but ubuntu going to be free right?
<Burgundavia_> That is how about 5-10 years ago all those guides came out that that were basically just tldp stuff glued together
<plovs_work> enrico, gfdl does not require credit does it?
<enrico> jiyuu0: if they take it, change the title, print it and sell it it's ok as long as what they print and sell is still free (that is, when you buy you can then modify, print, sell, give away...)
<enrico> jiyuu0: however, they can't take your name away from it (that is even illegal in many countries, no matter what the license says)
<plovs_work> jiyuu0, it is freem you can download it, but it is ok to sell the disc as well
<jiyuu0> ic
<plovs_work> jiyuu0, afaik the stuff we write is or will be under gfdl (right enrico?)
<Kinnison> GPL *please*
<jiyuu0> i think i'll follow the license u guys use
<jiyuu0> less headache
<plovs_work> jiyuu0, i am sorry for the trouble, but that is the world we live in...
<enrico> plovs_work: he can decide.  I think GPL would be nice.
<plovs_work> enrico, what is the difference between GPL and GFDL?
<plovs_work> enrico, for simple people like me? with short words?
<enrico> jiyuu0: GPL says that the work should come with its source code, so if you generate the HTML from some other file, you should also distribute the sources
<plovs_work> Burgundavia_, could i get your stuff from somewhere to check it out?
<jiyuu0> but gpl only for software right... no doc
<plovs_work> enrico, eg the docbook file i am writing already
<enrico> jiyuu0: GFDL is still a bit messy now, in that it allows some parts to be unmodifiable
<jiyuu0> and the html is the whole source code
* enrico will try to summon mako, which is more expert in these things
<plovs_work> jiyuu0, at least you get to meet lots of nteristing folk :-)
* jiyuu0 hope not to meet with lawyer
<plovs_work> jiyuu0, make is not a lawyer afaik, besides he's a funny guy
<jiyuu0> make?
<plovs_work> jiyuu0, mako
<enrico> jiyuu0: I think plovs_work scared you a bit, though
<enrico> mako isn't responding now unfortunately
<jiyuu0> ok...
<lulu> jiyuu0: Hiya! I'm not a license lawyer. We need to update the website with our documentation license = GFDL. We have decided on this as Canonical is a commercial company  and we sponsor Ubuntu. 
<jiyuu0> i just don't want to make other ppl / myself in trouble because of the guide...
<enrico> I know GPL very well, something of Creative Commons, but not much of GFDL except that it's still a bit messy
<lulu> We understand that there are invarient sections and we ask that as these are contentious, they are not included. However, you are entitled to license your work under any license you choose. You may have taken work from the wiki and mailing lists. Mailing list doc are copyright by their owner I understand. Wiki work is copyright by the owner and people assign copyright to Canonical so we can use work to help Ubuntu.
<mako> hey there
<Burgundavia_> also remember that CCbyA is not compatible with GFDL
<Kinnison> Burgundavia_: If you need it I can always set you up a space to put your bazaar archive mirror for others to work with
<enrico> mako: !
<mako> enrico: hey there
<enrico> mako: welcome!
<enrico> mako: plovs_work asked about the difference between GPL and GFDL
<mako> alright.. the GFDL is designe specifically for documentation and the GPL refers particularly to computer programs
<mako> but additionally, RMS believes that the two should be treated differently
<jiyuu0> lulu, but if my work is taken from elsewhere... like previous research on fedora/other distro... how does that count?
<mako> both have copyleft style parts
<jiyuu0> it's not exactly from wiki and mailing list here...
<mako> the GPL is more simple and portable but it refers to things like binaries versus, source, etc etc which don't apply cleanly to the world of documentation
<mako> the GFDL is much younger and more controversial
<plovs_work> mako, is it possible to license and the later change it to something else?
<mako> it allows for invariant, non-removeable sections (which are limited to "off topic" primarily non-technical bits in teh text of the license but are often not described that way)
<Burgundavia_> jiyuu0, The simplest thing to remember is that if you are original creator, you can relicense at will. If you are not, you can only use under the license granted
<mako> in addition to invarient non-removeable front covertexts, back-covertexts
<mako> dedications, acknolwedgements
<mako> and invarient removeable endorsements
<lulu> jiyuu0: what you take from elsewhere remains under the license it was created under.
<mako> it also contains a number of issue which are more commonly described as "bugs" in the license
<jiyuu0> Burgundavia_, but u talking about some command and stuff
<Burgundavia_> In addition, if there is no licence explicitly given, the work remain copyright, and you cannot use it
<jiyuu0> so it's hard to justify where it's from
<jiyuu0> it could be from friend
<mako> including one part which some people have interpreted to mean that encryption or even compression of GFDL documents might be in violation of the license
<jiyuu0> or here and there...
<mako> it's very clear that this is not the intention, and rms has said he would want to fix this
<Burgundavia_> jiyuu0, A statement like "rm -rf" cannot be copyright, but "Using rm -rf while root at / is not recommonded" is
<mako> but for a number of political reason, teh FSF has been very slow to release a new draft of the license -- even to solve the "bugs".. software is (and should be) a higher priority for them
<jiyuu0> lulu, elsewhere could be own research... from ppl, books, internet
<mako> plovs_work: the copyright holder of a work can relicense a work
<jiyuu0> Burgundavia_, but if taken from different resource with diff license... how?
<mako> plovs_work: but they can't change the of texts which they have already distributed under any free software license
<Burgundavia_> jiyuu0, It is better to be safe than sorry, as companies (ie Canonical) usually make better targets
<mako> plovs_work: things get complicated when you have many contributors to a single project
<plovs_work> mako, ok, thanks
<jiyuu0> Burgundavia_, sigh... headache... really confused
<mako> plovs_work: because it would mean taht you either need to find all contributs to relicense (and get them to consent) or you need to have *signed* copyright assignements
<Burgundavia_> jiyuu0, Yes, copyright sucks
<mako> plovs_work: this is what the FSF does. if you want to contribute to an fsf project.. you fax them a signed copyright assignment
<jiyuu0> mako, would you mind lookin at http://ubuntuguide.org and suggest a proper license
<mako> jiyuu0: i have seen it
<jiyuu0> mako, info there are not taken 100% from ubuntu wiki
<jiyuu0> but a mix from here and there
<mako> one problem with the GFDL is that is basically incompatible with *every* other license
<enrico> I suggest you slow down the discussion a bit, before jiyuu0 gets a headache...
<ChrisH> Too late for me already. :)
<jiyuu0> enrico, thanks... tension with these issues
<Burgundavia_> plovs_work, Kinnison is going to set me up a public mirror after the meeting
<plovs_work> jiyuu0, sorry for the trouble, and i *still* think your doc is great
<mako> jiyuu0: it depends on what you want.. if you want debian to be able to include it, something like the GPL or a public domain dedication or a BSD style license would be a good idee
<plovs_work> Burgundavia_, who is Kinnison? do i know him? (who am i? do i really exist? ...)
<jiyuu0> mako, so meaning GPL is the standard... with less problem
<jiyuu0> compared to others
<mako> jiyuu0: i personally use CC licenses.. usually the CC version 1.0 sharealike or the new cc-attrib-sharelike.. although the new licenses are not debian compatible
<Burgundavia_> plovs_work, Kinnison =  Daniel Silverstone
<mako> jiyuu0: well, it's a software license.. and it doesn't require attribution, if this is something that you want
<ChrisH> plovs_work: Haven't you been to the Marina with us? :) Kinnison was the guy besides my wife.
<plovs_work> i was, you have a photo?
<ChrisH> plovs_work: All his photos suck. And I didn't take one of him.
<jiyuu0> mako, so i'll go for GPL then
<jiyuu0> if that solves the problem
<plovs_work> ChrisH, ok, got it already, sorry, old age setting in...
<ChrisH> plovs_work: John seems to be confused about the quick guide...
<mako> jiyuu0: right.. now if you've used pieces from the wiki, those bits are copyright the author
<jiyuu0> and...
<jiyuu0> have to credit em?
<plovs_work> ChrisH, i can do a write-up to the list
<mako> jiyuu0: technically, you have to get the permission for hte authors
<jiyuu0> that is not somthing easy... i have to do reverse engineering
<mako> jiyuu0: it's very difficult
<jiyuu0> true
<mako> jiyuu0: i mean, go ahead adn put your document under the license of your choice
<ChrisH> plovs_work: Very good. We should coordinate work on the nutshell thingy (the "6000 words" one), too.
<plovs_work> Burgundavia_, could you send me what you have by mail?
<plovs_work> brb
<Kinnison> Burgundavia_: once I've sorted you out with a mirror for your archive; I'll take you through what is needed for others to work with you and then you can write a wikipage for it
<enrico> mako: what would it take to make it so that everything in the wiki is under a free license?
<enrico> mako: putting notices in the edit pages?
<mako> that is what other people do
<enrico> mako: could we do it as well?
<mako> that is what, for example, wikipedia does
<mako> yes, we could do it
<mako> if you forsee enforcement of the license though, i seriously doubt this will be enough
<lulu> enrico: we were going to put it in the legal page with all the legal stuff. Do you think we need it on every page?
<enrico> mako: I think we shuold, since we intend the wiki to be a scrapbook for bigger documentation
<enrico> lulu: in the "edit page" page for sure
<mako> the FSF requires signed copyright assignements from every significant contributor to a gnu project
<enrico> mako: oh, annoying
<lulu> enrico: edit page = good idea.
<mako> lulu: yes
<mako> enrico: yeah, this is why people don't do it
<mako> really, the biggest problem i forsee is having lots of documents that you want merge under incompatible licenses
<mako> quite honestly, i don't see consensus forming around the GFDL for a number of reasons
<mako> but there is a lot of existing technical and free software documentation under the GFDL
<mako> but if we were to merge most of it, it would require bringing in invarient nonremoveable sections and printing things like "A GNU Manual" on the cover of any books and the address of the FSF on the back
* sid77 hi
<plovs_work> Kinnison, will this mirror be svn, arch or ftp?
<Kinnison> it'll be a bazaar mirror
<Kinnison> over ftp
<Kinnison> or http
<plovs_work> Kinnison, but we might use baz as well?
<Kinnison> Indeed. Bazaar is the right way (tm)
<plovs_work> Kinnison, thanks, cool
<Kinnison> If people need bazaar help, lifeless here is the project lead
<ChrisH> lifeless: Hey... glad to have someone who answers to stupid questions. :)
<lifeless> :)
<plovs_work> lifeless, we want zsh command-line completion for baz ... please?
<ChrisH> First we probably need some documentation on baz (Wiki Quickstart page)
<plovs_work> ChrisH, spoilsport
<lifeless> so, there is a wiki, and we're starting on doco at the moment.
<ChrisH> Very good, Sir.
<lifeless> for zeesh, someone could port the tla completions :)
<lifeless> I'm not a zeesher.
<Burgundavia_> back
<mako> Burgundavia_: what were your concerns with using the GPL for commerciail publications?
<mako> Burgundavia_: the GPL does not bar commercial distributrion of software and would not bar commercial distribution of documentation either
<Burgundavia_> ture
<Burgundavia_> true
<Burgundavia_> No, my concern was not around the GPL
<mako> Burgundavia_: what was it with?
<mako> i guess i didn't really follow it
<Burgundavia_> My concern was around the current license of jiyuu0's text says non-commercial only
<mako> Burgundavia_: oh, right
<jiyuu0> i can remove it
<mako> well, it sounds like jiyuu0 is interested in fixing that
<mako> jiyuu0: lets wait a day or two and try to find the Right license
<mako> jiyuu0: i like the idea of using CC-BY-SA myself
<mako> http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.0/
* jiyuu0 checkin
<mako> i think it's free enough that it is in the spirit (and maybe even letter) of free software licenses but ensures that attribution is kept (which the GFDL does) and that it is copyleft (that the GFDL does) almost any of the parts people find problematic
<mako> sorry without almost any of the parts taht people find problematic
<mako> that page is not the text of the license, althought it has a link.. but is a good human readable summary
<Burgundavia_> but that leaves us out in the cold as we use GFDL does it not?
<mako> Burgundavia_: define we? :)
<mako> Burgundavia_: i'm going to talk to mark shuttleworth about the canonical produce documentation
<Burgundavia_> the doc team
<Burgundavia_> ok
<mako> but almost everyone on the docteam can use whatever license they choose
<mako> because they don't work for canonical
<mako> and people, like jiyuu0 and many others.. are not particularly happy about the GFDL
<enrico> mako: well, mark already decided on GFDL some time ago
<jiyuu0> actually i have no issues
<Burgundavia_> I am not a huge fan of the GFDL either
<mako> i'm not either actually, but since i work for canonical it doesn't matter :)
<jiyuu0> only scared ppl have issue on me
<mako> jiyuu0: well, there are reasons to be concerned by the GFDL
<mako> jiyuu0: at least the current draft
<mako> enrico: lulu has asked me to talk to mark about this
<mako> enrico: because it is a topic that keeps coming up on the doc list and seems to be keeping people from doing work and moving forward
<mako> enrico: do you think moving to a non-gfdl documentation license would be an improvement?
<mako> i'm a little worried because evidently, many people in wikipedia are regretting their decisions
<Burgundavia_> When WP was started CC did not exist
<mako> but because they do not track copyright holders, they can't relicense
<Burgundavia_> otherwise they would probably have gone with it
<mako> CC licenses are (a) international (b) written by lawyers (c) more tested and more used (d) more simple (to enfforce, to understand, to use)
<mako> gfdl has optional front cover texts, back cover texts, invarient sections, acknowledgements, dedications, endorsements and additional bits that come to effect when you're copying in quantity
<mako> it's complex :)
<Burgundavia_> GFDL makes it almost impossible to small printed documents, as you need to print a whole crapload of hte GFDL
<mako> Burgundavia_: yes
<mako> Burgundavia_: CC licenses allow you to provide a URI
<mako> *and* CC documents are international
<mako> there are versions updated to the language and law of a dozen or so countries
<mako> while the GFDL is US only
<mako> i mean, it might o
<mako> work other places too.. but that wasn't a goal
<Burgundavia_> but all this wonderful talk is just hotair unless we can get Mark to go along
<mako> Burgundavia_: i can talk to mark
<mako> but i would like to be able to say taht i'm representing teh view of more than myself :)
<mako> enrico: what do you think?
<mako> enrico: i know one of your concerns was with debian compatibilituy
<Burgundavia_> I would go with CCbySA if we can
<mako> enrico: and quite honestly, i don't know a single up-to-date documentation license taht debian-legal likes
<mako> enrico: but i suspect that if someoen pushed a gr, the CC-bysa would pass
<Burgundavia_> so pretty much debian compatiablity is a no go anyway
<mako> unless you want to use a sofware license for documentation.. or a public domain dedication
<mako> which is not necessarily bad
<enrico> mako: I don't know much about Debian, but I think that debian's rebuttal of it made many people wary
<mako> although i prefer copyleft licenses myself
<mako> enrico: of the GFDL or of the CC-bysa
<mako> ?
<plovs_work> mako, i would like as free as possible, but debian-compatible as well
<enrico> I do prefer copyleft licenses
<enrico> Of the GFDL, because it made much more noise
<enrico> what was wrong with the CC-bysa?
<mako> enrico: unless you use a pre 2.0 CC (i.e, out of date), there are no copyleft documentation licenses i know of
<mako> enrico: very bizarre hair splitting things
<enrico> (besides the unspellable name, and probably that they've taken it out)
<enrico> the only concern about GFDL was that it can't go in Debian main (so far)
<mako> http://lists.debian.org/debian-legal/2004/07/msg01193.html
<mako> but i strongly disagree with most of that interpretation
<mako> i think that "
<mako> If this is the case, private distribution of the work would seem to be
<mako> forbidden. Along with obvious technological measures that control access,
<mako> such as a firewall on a LAN or a virtual private network (VPN), distributing
<mako> using encryption (such as Secure Sockets Layer (SSL)) would appear to be
<mako> prohibited."
<mako> that is a pretty ridiculous interpretation
<mako> it's CLEAR to me that they're not banning private distribution :)
<mako> intent matters in law and -legal doesn't seem to realize that
<enrico> if you don't take intents into consideration when checking laws, no laws will ever be sane
<enrico> one could add an explicit statement to please debian-legal, though, but that's a bit arrogant since debian-legal doesn't appear to be sane here
<enrico> BTW, how come CC took that license out?
<mako> because 95+% of people who used CC licenses used attribution :)
<mako> they said they would add them back if there was a major outcry
<mako> i emailed them and ask them to create a pure SA license
<mako> but i guess other people did not
<enrico> mako: let debian-legal do it
<Burgundavia_> back again
<enrico> or we can plea for CC-ification of a fixed GFDL like it happened with GPL
<Burgundavia_> can I force an absolute path for loading of images in docbook format?
<ChrisH> Burgundavia_: In theory: yes. But if someone decides to put the guide into somewhere different than / (which could easily happen on the ubuntulinux.org web site as well) then the image is broken.
<Burgundavia_> ok, so the best is the distribute the image with the guide then?
<ChrisH> We need to do that anyway.
<Burgundavia_> ok
<Burgundavia_> I have done a mock up of graphical style of showing how to use an application. I also think we can release it to translators as an svg, so they can just import the new screenshot and change the text, then reexport the png
<Burgundavia_> what do people think?
<enrico> Burgundavia_: I didn't quite get what you mean
<enrico> Burgundavia_: :(
<Burgundavia_> Ok, I think we should use screenshots
<Burgundavia_> however, we should also have that screenshot with help messages showing what buttons do what
<Burgundavia_> However, thus it makes hard to translate
<Burgundavia_> my solution, keep the screenshot-with-explaination in svg format for us, and exported to png for the released document
<Burgundavia_> thus, the translators can translate the svg and get a new screenshot and reexport
<Burgundavia_> do you understand that?
<enrico> ah, ok.  But how do you make a SVG screenshot?
<enrico> I'd love to be able to make SVG screenshots, actually
<Burgundavia_> no svg screenshot, png screenshot
<Burgundavia_> using gimp
<Burgundavia_> the new license is CCbySA2.0
<mako> hey guys, i just talked to mark
<enrico> Burgundavia_: ah, screenshot-with-explanation!  Now I get it
<mako> and he says that CCbysa is good to guy if there's consensus that it's a better license
<mako> good to go even
* mako hugs enrico
* mako highfives lulu 
<mako> :)
<mako> so, it's up to the team
<mako> if there's consensus that CCbySA is a bettter choice, i can update the text and hook it up
<enrico> Burgundavia_: can't it be done directly with captions inside docbook?  Or it's one of those cool explanations that circle the things and tell what they are?  In that case, yes, SVG would be very cool!
<enrico> mako: wasnt CCbySA outdated?
<Burgundavia_> yes, it circles each description
<enrico> mako: I mean, not in 2.0?
<Burgundavia_> enrico, yes by 2.0
<mako> no.. CC-SA was outdated
<mako> plain old sa is only a 1.0 license
<enrico> so, CC did a 2.0 free license after all?
<mako> by-sa is both a 1.0 anda  2.0 license
<enrico> and is CCbySA free?  
<enrico> and is CCbySA fine for Debian?
<lulu> mako: thanks for getting that initiated - so does everyone know what the CC-BY-SA license is and how it's different?
<mako> debian legal said that *all* cc 2.0 licenses. perhaps 1.0 licenses are non-free
<mako> for what are, in my opinion, questionable reasoning
<mako> they claimed that the license as written blocked private distribution
<mako> which is not a sane interpretation of the license IMHO and very clearly not the intent of the license
<enrico> lulu: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.0/
<sivang> HI all
<mako> enrico: yes
<sivang> yo mako
<sivang> :)
<mako> sivang: home safe? :)
<enrico> sivang: hi!
<sivang> yeah, but mataro home sick :)
<mako> enrico: OT: are you in taiwan?
<enrico> mako: yes, and about to go to bed
<enrico> mako: and with a *new laptop*
<sivang> I really miss the conference..and  all the guys..
<lulu> enrico: yes - thanks! :o) Mako sent it to me earlier - but others may not know...  http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.0/ 
<sivang> enrico : congretulations!
<sivang> hi lulu!
<mako> enrico: read that license.. i think it's in the spirit of free software
<mako> enrico: i've also had CC employees tell me they were interested  din working with us to make their licesne DFSG free
<lulu> sivang: welcome back.! Ofer asked me for your email today, so he should be in touch soon.
<mako> enrico: and there are *no* documentation licenses that -legal has approved
<mako> enrico: i think we need to read teh license, read legals criticism, and then make our move
<sivang> lulu : cool, thanks , I only now reached a machine so I will probably get those email by now.
<mako> enrico: -legal has said they would not approve the GPL
<Burgundavia_> When I import into Inkscape, I lose resolution, it is very annoying
<mako> enrico: i'm confident that if/when someone pushese a gr on these licenses, we will be able to get this past the developers
<mako> ALSO, these licenses are all "ported" to other languages and legal systems
<mako> so you can get the italian version updated to italian language and law.. and germany, brazil, japan, etc etc
<mako> i have some serious criticism with the CC project. but they make very good licenses :)
<enrico> mako: yes, and CC is well known as well
<mako> and widely used
<enrico> for me, it's cool stuff.  Would you like to post to ubuntu-doc a summary of your talk with mark and its outcome?
<mako> i'm comfortable going ahead of debian-legal with this licensees although i was not with the GFDL
<enrico> (I'm on my way to the bed)
<mako> enrico: yes.. it's up to the team ultimately
<mako> enrico: i'll do that
* mako has been doing email NINJITSU today
<lulu> mako: it will be great to resolve this for Ubuntu asap. Lets' aim to have it finalised before the end of the week if possible. well done :o)
* mako nods
<enrico> mako: so this thing could be brought up to debian-legal to reopen a discussion to rechallenge the hair-splitting maybe
<enrico> but I have no head to think about it now
<enrico> 01:07 here
<mako> yeah, lets talk about legal another day
<enrico> I mean, people are generally pissed about -legal, so it might come the time in which reopening discussions leads to toasting the original unreasonable things
* mako is a little sclared of -legal
<mako> it will be Mako Vs. The Natives
<mako> and for political reasons regarding to the GFDL negotiations, i have been hesitant to challenge people on that list
<mako> becuase they immediately say "you can't represent debian for the gfdl!" as soon as they see i disagree with any of them on anything
<enrico> mako: I suggest some teaming up with others, just not to be you against all
<mako> well that doesn't mitigate the second issue
* enrico goes to bed
<Burgundavia_> never mind, I can put the svg in a file and link it to the docbook
<Burgundavia_> I got svg to display in yelp, but pngs through svg look butt ugly
<Kinnison> I know that feeling :-(
<Burgundavia_> Kinnison, it works in greyscale
<Kinnison> Burgundavia_: Smells like whatever renderer yelp is using is moosed then
<sivang> Kinnision : daniel!
<sivang> :)
<Kinnison> sivang: HI
<Burgundavia_> it looks pretty slick
<Burgundavia_> Kinnison, are you downstairs yet?
<sivang> Kinnision : since when you are hanging on the doc team channel? :)
<Kinnison> Burgundavia_: yep
<sivang> Burgundavia_ : hey cori, what's up?
<Kinnison> sivang: so you can say hi to me
<Kinnison> sivang: and I'm stalking Burgundavia_ for extra fun
<sivang> heheh
<sivang> :)
<sivang> no more mao for me :(
<Kinnison> Until you come again
<Kinnison> I'll need that long to train corey up. He can't remember how 7s work
<sivang> Will you be teaching him through IRC?
<Burgundavia_> hey!!!
<Kinnison> he's here
<Kinnison> well, over <--- there
<sivang> ah right , Burgundavia_  untill when are you staying in the conference?
<Burgundavia_> the very end
<Burgundavia_> plus 2 days
<sivang> ah that's cool!
* sivang wished he had the money to allow him to attend to whole conference :-P 
<sivang> why more 2 days?
<sivang> are you going to tour mataro/barcelona in the remanining wones?
<sivang> ones
<Burgundavia_> mako, get daff for me
<Kinnison> Burgundavia_: daff?
<Kinnison> Burgundavia_: it's 'daf' dearie
<Burgundavia_> hey plovs, I got svg working in yelp, but colour images don't work
<plovs> #ok
<plovs> and b/w images?
<Burgundavia_> yep, works fine
<Burgundavia_> so, we ship b/w until the yelp people get off their butt
<plovs> weird, must be a bug
<Burgundavia_> ya
<plovs> colour works ok here
<plovs> on hoary
<plovs> on warty also btw
<Burgundavia_> png inside svg inside docbook in yelp?
<Kinnison> Burgundavia_: right; we need to get your archive signed
<Kinnison> Burgundavia_: How much have you committed to it?
<Burgundavia_> a bunch
<Burgundavia_> ah, I may not have committed
<Kinnison> heh
<Kinnison> right; we can do it cleanly
<Burgundavia_> ya, committed
<ChrisH> Where was the Moin markup page on the Wiki again?
#ubuntu-doc 2004-12-25
<Kinnison> Evening burgerboy
<Burgundavia_> hey
<Kinnison> Did you decide if you wanted your archive in my archzoom?
<Burgundavia_> we just mentioned on lwn, or should I say jiyou did
<Kinnison> Dude, you need to learn to type
<Burgundavia_> jiyou or something like that is his irc nick
<Kinnison> oh I see
<Kinnison> I thought it was an abysmal typo of 'you'
<Burgundavia_> no
<Kinnison> So, back to my question.... archzoom?
<Kinnison> or viewarch
<Kinnison> or whateverthefook it is
<Burgundavia_> huh?
<Kinnison> http://arch.digital-scurf.org/
<Kinnison> do you want your archive in there?
<Burgundavia_> not right now
<Kinnison> okies
<Burgundavia_> not until we decide on the license
<Kinnison> furry muff
<Burgundavia_> what is the easy way to convert something to gray scale in gimp?
<Kinnison> desturate
<Kinnison> erm, desaturate
<Kinnison> your typing has rubbed off on me
<Burgundavia_> there is easier, mode-->greyscale
<Kinnison> yah; s'pose that does it too :-)
<Kinnison> Marning
<Burgundavia_> anybody here?
<Kinnison> Morning lulu
<Burgundavia_> morning
<ChrisH> Hoo, hoo...
<lulu> morning all :o)
<enrico_> morning all!
* sid77 hi
<sivang> Hi all!
<ChrisH> Hey, kids... :)
<plovs> hi ChrisH 
<Kinnison> Morning sivang, ChrisH 
<dsilvers> sivang: I stand a chance of entering fun characters in this client
<dsilvers> Cool, so I can *somehow* enter:  I just have to work out how.
<dsilvers> sivang, Do you have a jabber account?
* dsilvers 's is dsilvers@ppfm.net if anyone wants to add me to their roster
* dsilvers waves, xchat is too nasty
<Burgundavia_> hey jiyuu0, you made it to lwn.net
<jiyuu0> somebody told me too
<jiyuu0> but i never heard of lwn.net till now
<mako> hey guys
<mako> i just sent a licensing proposal to the doc list
<Burgundavia_> hey mako
<Burgundavia_> lulu, ?
<Burgundavia_> lulu, ?
<lulu> hi Corey - what can I help with?
<Burgundavia_> is that room still available for the 15-17th
<lulu> yes - you are booked in, why?
<Burgundavia_> you just asked that I confirm just before
<lulu> we can change it if you need to.
<Burgundavia_> no, that works great for me
<lulu> ok :o)
<cenerentola> \4ciao
<Burgundavia_> salut
<Kinnison> allo
<ChrisH> adios
<cenerentola> adios
<plovs> Burgundavia_: is the quickguide online?
<Burgundavia_> yes, but the baz archive is borked, a baz problem
<Burgundavia_> basically did you see the list I posted?
<Burgundavia_> I have done some work on the application based document
<Burgundavia_> very image heavy, but using svg
* sid77 hi
* sid77 bye
#ubuntu-doc 2004-12-26
<Burgundavia_> salut all
<Burgundavia_> hey lu?
<lulu> morning Corey!
* sid77 hi
<Burgundavia_> morning
<Burgundavia_> I am in 233 correct?
<Kinnison> Morning
<Burgundavia_> morning
* Kinnison 's eyes bleed
<Burgundavia_> huh??
<Kinnison> internals of baz
<Burgundavia_> ah
<Kinnison> We're breaking the five-metre rule you know
<Burgundavia_> now we are not
<Kinnison> Indeed
<Kinnison> Do I really smell that much? :-(
<Burgundavia_> nah, but the conversation is better up here
<Kinnison> So kind
<Burgundavia_> as always
* Kinnison is beginning to doubt it :-)
<Burgundavia_> what???
<Kinnison> That you're always kind :-)
<Kinnison> ra ra Burgundavia_ 
<Burgundavia_> ya, im back
<Burgundavia_> bloody wireless
<Kinnison> it's that room. I only get reliable signal by the door
<Kinnison> Burgundavia_: if you're prepared to toke from *my* baz crack pipe I have a fix for the .listing bug
<Kinnison> Burgundavia_: otherwise you should wait for lifeless to review it
<Burgundavia_> ah, whatever
<Burgundavia_> lulu
<lulu> yes? room check?
<lulu> Burgundavia_: you are sharing with Marius Gedminas (Chris Halls was his room mate)
<Burgundavia_> right
<lulu> .
<Burgundavia_> thanks
<Kinnison> Burgundavia_: did you sort everything out with respect to that charge?
<Kinnison> Burgundavia_: also; baz crack-of-the-minute has my patch in it to make it work :-)
<Burgundavia_> no, waiting to talk to the staffer who was on at the time
<Burgundavia_> I will also get crack of the day
<sivang> hi everybody!
<sivang> how is Mataro this morning?
<Kinnison> hello dr sivan
<sivang> hey Kinnison, what's up? :)
<Kinnison> not much
<sivang> how is the kernel module working?
<Kinnison> Reasonably
<sivang> heh :)
<Kinnison> I need to find someone with a VALZ laptop for me to test with
<sivang> when you have time, I
<sivang> 'd like us to try working the dell ones as well , for inspiron 8200 
* Kinnison grins
<lifeless> Burgundavia_: bazaar now will do the right thing for your ftp hosted archive.
<Burgundavia_> sounds good
<sivang> lifeless : is there a canonical url for using bazzar already? I want to see how reasonable is it for storing documents etc.
<Kinnison> lifeless: the canonical bazaar address is bazaar.canonical.com
<sivang> Kinnison : can I already put doc stuff there? :)
<Kinnison> erm s/lifeless/sivang/
<Kinnison> I'm so awake right now
<sivang> ah ok :)
<sivang> heheh
<Kinnison> sivang: It's the url to bazaar :-)
<Kinnison> sivang: You make an archive on your laptop :-)
<sivang> ah, distributed revision management . COOOL
<sivang> :)
* sid77 hi
<Burgundavia_> sivang, you still there?
<sivang> yes, just a sec.
<sivang> :)
<Burgundavia_> you got bazaar yet?
<sivang> Burgundavia_ : working on it, do you know if there any place in canonical where we can have the bazzar archive hosted, if we want to use it eventually?
<Burgundavia_> sivang, that is being worked on,currently this is just a temp archive, so that we can work on the quickguide stuf
<plovs> Burgundavia_, hi! so we have an arch repo now?
<sivang> Burgundavia_ : how can I access it?
<Burgundavia_> yah, just temp hosted with Kinnison
<sivang> ah over his machines?
<sivang> Kinnison : you're the doc team patron aren't you ? ;-)
<Burgundavia_> at his machine, until we get an official one
<Burgundavia_> ftp://corey:burgerbar@userftp.pepperfish.net/corey.burger@gmail.com--2004
<Burgundavia_> that is the baz url
<Burgundavia_> have you set up baz?
<sivang> curretnly trying to decided if I'm better off to use the deb pacakge or compile from source..
<sivang> also looking at some arch docs
<Burgundavia_> grab the crack of the day from that repo
<Burgundavia_> is going to be updated daily or more
<sivang> yeah, so we've heared on the morning sessions :)
<Burgundavia_> so I would go with the debs, they are more up to date
<Burgundavia_> On another note, did you guys see my post to list about the roles of the quickguide and userguide?
<Burgundavia_> sivang, heard
<sivang> I think I've seen it already, still havn't had a chance to read it thoroughly..
<Burgundavia_> ya, I think I am leaning towards the task-based quickguide
<plovs> Burgundavia_, we still need access to all the files first and then discuss what we will do in the end. This needs to be decided together
<Burgundavia_> true
<sivang> Burgundavia_ : any decision we run through the doc team needs to be approved first, either by reaching consensus on the mailing list, or in a meeting.
<Burgundavia_> I realize that, I was just stating my opinion
<sivang> ah ok :)
<Burgundavia_> I have done 2 different apps in the current quickguide (calc and file-roller)
<Burgundavia_> have you both set up baz, or do you need my help with that?
<sivang> Burgundavia_ : I'll sure bug you if I stumble upon any trouble :)
<Burgundavia_> ok
* sid77 mimes a "spaghetti western" dusty ball crossing the channel
<sid77> sorry, wrong comamnd
<ChrisH> sid77: Not really. That was the first time you actually used the "/me" command correctly :)
<sid77> ChrisH, I /ame hi on login just because I'm on 2 server ;)
<ChrisH> sid77: Just that it sounds lame because /me indicates in action. "/me waves to everybody" or "/me is back" would be valid. :)
<sid77> well, think I should checkout the correct use of /allchan then :)
<ChrisH> Yo... wallops info: sid77 is back! ;)
<sid77> ChrisH, uh?
<sid77> mmmh
<sid77> Should I use "/ame waves to everybody (so CrisH is happy)" ?
<sid77> gh
<sid77> just kidding
<ChrisH> What is "/ame"? I just know "/me"
<sid77> ChrisH, it is an xchat command (or alias), send a /me on every channel you are in (and on every server, that's why I use it)
<Kinnison> Burgundavia_: noooooooooooo!
<Kinnison> Burgundavia_: Your URL is http://arch.digital-scurf.org/guests/corey.burger@gmail.com--2004
* Kinnison spanks Burgundavia_ *HARD*
<Burgundavia_> hey
<Burgundavia_> my test case for the bug report is working, dammit
<Kinnison> ?
<Burgundavia_> well, I tried to build a test case for the image display probelm iwht yelp, but the test images i have seem to work
<Kinnison> Hehe
<sivang> Burgundavia_, a yelp bug?
<Burgundavia_> display to gimp-screenshots in SVG in docbook in yelp, they do not display correctly
<Burgundavia_> s/to/of'
* sivang be right back, switching machines
<Burgundavia_> back soon
<Burgundavia_> got to go pick up my laundry
<Burgundavia_> hello again
<Kinnison> nice clean clothes?
<enrico> Hello everyone.  Could someone give me the status of the svn-baz affair?
<enrico> I remember the original idea was to have a baz scrapbook and work on svn until everyone was happy with baz, and then schedule a svn->baz migration
<enrico> Something went wrong?
<Kinnison> Dunno. I've got Burgundavia_ trying to work with baz
<enrico> s/scrapbook/sandbox/
<Burgundavia_> hey
<Burgundavia_> yes, nice clean clothes, but at 13 euros, a little pricey
<Burgundavia_> would baz get url not just grab the files
<Burgundavia_> With the svg is docbook, I think the docbook is going to meet all requirements
<plovs> he corey can you send me a copy of what you wrote so far?
<plovs> Burgundavia_, ?
<Kinnison> baz register-archive http://....
<Kinnison> baz get archive/branch
<Kinnison> unfortunately the url-based get stuff is still pending
<enrico> Kinnison: please expand [....]  :)
<Kinnison> enrico: in this instance; http://arch.digital-scurf.org/guests/corey.burger@gmail.com--2004
<plovs> Kinnison, and baz get .... what?
<enrico> plovs: please note that that command is what you can use for downloading Burgundavia_'s work, but you don't need to work on baz :)
* enrico puts Kinnison's line together:
<enrico> baz register-archive http://arch.digital-scurf.org/guests/corey.burger@gmail.com--2004
<enrico> baz get archive/branch
<Kinnison> then baz get corey.burger@gmail.com--2004/ubuntu-doc--quickfind-corey--0
<enrico> oh, sorry, archive/branch needed to be expanded :(
<Kinnison> you might need to wget http://arch.digital-scurf.org/guests/corey.burger@gmail.com.pub if you've not got his gpg key, and import it
<plovs> No such package (ubuntu-doc--quickfind-corey)
<Kinnison> oh?
* Kinnison abrowses
<enrico> Argh... it's getting quite complicated just to download one's work...
<enrico> Is it possible for Burgundavia_
<Kinnison> sorry; quickguide-corey
<enrico> Is it possible for Burgundavia_'s work to end up in subversion in a way or another?
<plovs>  ERROR 404: Not found.
* Kinnison had a braino
<Burgundavia_> I just chatted with lulu regarding the set up of baz on the official servers
* plovs frowns at baz
<Kinnison> baz has a bit of a learning curve^Wbrick-wall-with-shards-of-glass but once you're there it's easy
<enrico> Kinnison: wasn't baz supposed to be the one with the almost-no-learning-curve feature?
* plovs looks for plasters
<enrico> Burgundavia_: what came out of the chat?
<plovs> enrico, that is for geniuses only
<Burgundavia_> baz is a work in progress (rather seriously)P
<enrico> plovs: in theory, that was arch :)
<enrico> Ok, let's cool down.  I'm trying to make a recap in the list of the current situation, so that everyone knows how to resume their work
<Burgundavia_> Kinnison, is the baz just ro for everyone that me?
<enrico> I'll try to do it here first
<plovs> enrico, right
<enrico> at the docteam BOF, we agreed that we would setup a baz sandbox and then keep working on svn until we all would like baz a lot.  Then, properly schedule a svn->baz migration
<Burgundavia_> ya
<enrico> I didn't get any more news, so I imagine the situation is still the same
<Burgundavia_> but that doesn't really solve our imm. prob of getting my daily crack up to somewhere people can rip it apart
<enrico> I haven't seen any news of the sandbox in the list either, so I guess it still isn't there and Burgundavia_ is just playing with baz because it's fun
<Burgundavia_> I am playing with baz because I no history with any versioning system, thus have no bad habits and dislikes
<enrico> Kinnison: can't baz commit to subversion?  I recall reading something like arch could do it
<Kinnison> enrico: No
<Kinnison> Burgundavia_: Indeed
<Kinnison> Burgundavia_: Everyone can branch off your stuff in their own archives
<Kinnison> Burgundavia_: and then you can merge patches between yourselves
<Kinnison> Burgundavia_: that's the way distributed development works
<enrico> We could ask Burgundavia_ to switch to svn for the sake of simplicity of working with the rest of the people, but I don't want to throw away the hard climbing Burgundavia_ has already made on baz's learning curve :)
<Burgundavia_> I don't mind, but would need commit access to the svn repo
<Burgundavia_> or a repo
<enrico> Oh, that should be easy
<plovs> enrico, well, not that simple as john is not available atm
<Kinnison> This is why baz is good. Noone needs anyone else's permission to get on with branching and working on stuff
<Burgundavia_> ya, that is what I mean
<plovs> Kinnison, if you can get it to work, we'll buy you a beer
<plovs> Burgundavia_, can you just send me a tgz?
<Burgundavia_> sure
<Kinnison> plovs: It's already working for Burgundavia_ ... what's missing is a central place for you lot to mirror archives to and some documentation to make it easy for you to know what commands you need to do what
<enrico> oh, tgz are cute
<Burgundavia_> just a sec
<plovs> Kinnison, that's half a beer
<Kinnison> I've been asked to say "Please just use SVN for now"
<Kinnison> So as soon as Burgundavia_ can be set up with svn commit access he can move his stuff into svn
<enrico> cool!
<enrico> In the meantime, until John shows up again, we can see how to get Burgundavia_'s work
<plovs> all fine with me, i just want to work on this guide!
* enrico hacks on a script
<Burgundavia_> ya
<Burgundavia_> lets use svn until after the conf, when I will write up some stuff about how to use baz
<enrico> Burgundavia_: cool.  But let's bring out baz only after a week there's not been other chaos and everyone is working in harmony :)
<Kinnison> baz *will* cause chaos and confusion until you all get re-used to it. It is a very different working model.
<Burgundavia_> I was just thinking of righting the docs, not the actual transition
<plovs> Burgundavia_, you have my email?
<enrico> Right.  So, I'll now send a mail to john asking to create an account for Burgundavia_.  In the meantime, it would be great to have a .tar.gz of Burgundavia_'s last things online somewhere
<Burgundavia_> I was about the ask
<Burgundavia_> I have created it
<Kinnison> Burgundavia_: you know the ftp url you mirror to for your archive?
<Kinnison> Burgundavia_: if you just ftp there you can put the file
<Kinnison> Burgundavia_: want a hand?
<Burgundavia_> na, I got it
<Kinnison> cool
<Burgundavia_> it is up now
<plovs> Burgundavia_, ok, got it
<Burgundavia_> really, the stuff there is just proof of concept
<enrico> How about a link in the channel (if it's not a burden?)
<Burgundavia_> ftp://corey:burgerbar@userftp.pepperfish.net/
<Burgundavia_> that logs in as me
<Kinnison> Burgundavia_: nonononono
<Kinnison> Burgundavia_: Do you always give write-access to your websites?
<Kinnison> Burgundavia_: http://arch.digital-scurf.org/guests/
<Burgundavia_> Kinnison, yes, if it is trivial
* Kinnison really really ought to tickle you lots -)
<Burgundavia_> Kinnison, if they can compromise your server from that, you have bigger problems than me
<Burgundavia_> and I could care less if somebody logs on and deletes everything
<Kinnison> Burgundavia_: userftp.pepperfish.net is a smelly *SMELLY* hack
<Burgundavia_> that is fine, we are just trying to pull down stuff
* Kinnison cringes
<Burgundavia_> sometimes I care about doing things correctly, this is not one of those times
<plovs> Burgundavia_, hmm it doesn't work on warty
<Burgundavia_> huh?
<Burgundavia_> I am running warty
<Burgundavia_> just a sec
<Burgundavia_> run accessories.xml directly, as I made an error about paths
<plovs> yes, just did that, that works
<plovs> looks good
<Burgundavia_> what do you think of the idea?
<Burgundavia_> The implementation is a bit of crap right now
<plovs> besides the fact that it is b/w i think it quite nice
<Burgundavia_> the black and white is due to some error in yelp/gimp screenshot
<plovs> i wonder whether it is quick-guide though, it is more like user-guide stuff afaik
<Burgundavia_> for some reason, screenshots created in the gimp do not display in yelp, but normal images due
<Burgundavia_> that is colour images
<Burgundavia_> bw works fine
<Burgundavia_> There is a gnome bug report filed for it
<plovs> the images are b/w outside yelp as well, no?
<Burgundavia_> yes
<Burgundavia_> I made them bw in the gimp
<Burgundavia_> This mockup was why I posted the topic about task-based vs program-based
<Burgundavia_> For the next few days, should I continue on this track?
<plovs> Burgundavia_, it shows in colour if you make colour shots here
<Burgundavia_> wierd
<Burgundavia_> I need to do some serious looking to see what breaks
<Burgundavia_> I will sort that out
<plovs> so let's discuss what we want to do with the quick-guide
<plovs> we need a short intro o all the major apps, afaik
<Burgundavia_> Right now, or on the list?
<plovs> let's discuss and then write something to the list
<Burgundavia_> The major reason I wanted something task based was that in order to document all the stuff for a specific program, that is a lot fo screen shots and thus not really quick
<plovs> i like the svg's we should have some of those, but an in-depth discussion is more for the user-guide , afaik
<plovs> the idea is a short over-view, what is on the cd and why people would want it
<plovs> not how it actually works
<lulu> hey guys a quick one - we discussed turning off all other options on the wiki other than moinmoin. then - someone raised the fact that we may want html on the wiki. so is the final decision moinmoin and html or just moin moin?
<Burgundavia_> umm, ok, to me that is not really useful as a quickguide
<Burgundavia_> To me, a quickguide tells me how to do the major thing(s) that the app does, without going into too many details
<plovs> lulu, where do we need html? nothing comes to mind atm
<Burgundavia_> with html comes security issues, so if we include html, only a select number of tags must be allowed
<plovs> Burgundavia_, what use is a guide that explains badly what an app does?
<plovs> lulu, if it is not a lot of work to turn it back on, i would just turn it all off except for moin
<Burgundavia_> but it would not explain badly, just that file-roller creates and reads files, and this is how to read a archive (the most common usage of the roller)
<lulu> plovs: ok....lets' start with that and if it's needed, we can ask for html to be added. thanks :o)
<plovs> lulu, always welcome 
<Burgundavia_> Can we link directly to the main userguide directly from the quickguide
<plovs> Burgundavia_, i asked the same question, afaik not at the moment
<plovs> Burgundavia_, we write two guides, we should not have too much overlap, they should be two distinct different things
<plovs> two targets, as far apart as possible
<Burgundavia_> I am having a hard time seeing your vision for the quickguide. Could you spit me out some sample text?
<plovs> you have subversion installed?
<Burgundavia_> yep
<plovs> svn co http://69.155.172.150/faq look in quickguide
<Burgundavia_> that was what you mocked up before you left correct?
<plovs> yes
<Burgundavia_> I was wondering more what you would put, say, under the file-roller entry
<plovs> for something like file-roller, a couple of  lines would be enough, To work with archives we  have file-roller. It can open and extract archives and can be used to create archives as well.
<plovs> nothing much. it is a minor app
<enrico> if it adds archive support to nautilus, it may be worth mentioning
<Burgundavia_> Ok, so would describe the app at 30,000ft then, without going into how it does anything?
<plovs> the browser, evolution and multiple language support is much more important
<plovs> Burgundavia_, exactly
<plovs> and only zoom in on some apps
<plovs> the quick-guide is used to 'sell' ubuntu, not explain it
<Burgundavia_> ok then, is a screenshot, showing the major buttons is a userguide thing, iyo
<plovs> for that we have the userguide and maybe the faq
<plovs> Burgundavia_, right, imho it is
<plovs> off course some screenshots might be nice, with special features
<Burgundavia_> ok then, do we really need to have any images in the quickguide at all then?
<plovs> for example the clock integrates with evolution, that is something utterly cool and nice for new users
<plovs> that you should show
<plovs> in the what-is-new part the new package-selection thing
<Burgundavia_> ok then
<Burgundavia_> But the svg stuff is major cool for the userguide
<plovs> btw the layout in svn is not fixed or finished
<plovs> Burgundavia_, agreed, it looks great
<Burgundavia_> So I will start writing simple stuff for the apps for the quickguide
<plovs> good idea, and try to find out what is new
<Burgundavia_> fills the tranlated requirement as well
<Kinnison> bah
<plovs> hahaha that was an encouraging visit
<plovs> until you have a password you can send me the diffs
* dsilvers grins
<Burgundavia_> ok
<Kinnison> Let's try that again :-)
* dsilvers is testing an IRC proxy; sorry guys
<plovs> dsilvers, irssi?
<dsilvers> ctrlproxy
<Kinnison> It seems to work too
<Kinnison> which is nice
<plovs> very schizo
<plovs> :-)
<Burgundavia_> I am taking notes in the current bof, so won't be in here much right now
<plovs> Burgundavia_, ok, cu later then
<Kinnison> This is all very fun
<Kinnison> I now have xchat and irssi attached to the same irc session
<sivang> enrico : hi!!!!
<sivang> how is tawiwan this time of the year?
<enrico> 
<sivang> how do you produce that sign?
<sivang> :)
<enrico> <3
<Kinnison> enrico: is this a case of  la la la  ?
<enrico> Kinnison: 
<plovs> enrico, you are an svn wizard right?
<enrico> Kinnison taught me how to enter arbitrary Unicode characters in gnome-terminal :)
<enrico> plovs: rather a user, but try to ask
<plovs> i have a foler that i want to add to revision control but it claims it already is, but when i check out the repo it is not there
<plovs> folder
<plovs> i did a workaround, making new folders and moving stuff into it
<enrico> plovs: I usually checkout the archive in another directory, add then folder, then commit
<plovs> enrico, will try
<enrico> Time to go to bed
<lulu> sivang: Hiya! Oferw is looking for you
<sivang> lulu : I Know, he's sent me an email but currently I cannot log into rossetta so I didn't have much to answer him back, plus I had tons of emails to go through, But I'll answer him now, COuld you help us with rosseta? I have been unable to iunstall the testing certificate and daf told me it would get released today buyt still no go..
<lulu> sivang: daf is online - rather than my acting as a go between - please contact him directly and then enlighten us :o). Thanks :o)
<sivang> ok, I'll try again ;o)
<lulu> sivang: they are working like crazy to get it released today, so hopefully soon - hang in there for a bit methinks :o)
<sivang> lulu : ok, so I'll tell ofer to have some patience :)
<lulu> sivang: I do hope it will be this evening but I think tomorrow is a good guestimate - they are ironing out a few problems.
<sivang> lulu : I'll just contact him to let him know we have something to wait for.
<lulu> sivang: thanks!
<Burgundavia_> plovs, you still here?
<Burgundavia_> is guess not
<Burgundavia_> anybody else here, or have I lost internet again?
<ChrisH> I'm still here. :)
<Burgundavia_> ok, just checking
<Burgundavia_> wireless is flaky upstairs
<ChrisH> no problm, yo$"$ur line is w____ing corre"%ly
<Burgundavia_> huh?
<ChrisH> kidding :)
<Burgundavia_> you know, it is very hard to write docs for hoary when you are not running it
<sivang> Burgundavia_, then , you should!
* sivang grins evily
<Burgundavia_> I do at home, just not on my laptop
<sivang> Burgundavia_, hoary works pretty ok for me on my crappy dell
<sivang> and has become even more stable over the past week :)
<ChrisH> Hoary is really mad on my system, too. aptitude is broken. Half of the applets from my top panel are missing. I don't know whether x.org runs...
<Burgundavia_> yes, but I would rather not deal with crap at the conf
<Burgundavia_> I can deal with that at my home
<sivang> Burgundavia_, you always have Kinnison next to you to help :)
* sivang hides 
<Burgundavia_> can I send you guys some files diffs to upload to the svn server?
<sivang> Burgundavia_, do we have a quicbook branch alreayd?
<Burgundavia_> or not, I just deleted all my work
<Burgundavia_> I had to remove the files, delete the directory and redownload from the svn server
<Burgundavia_> guess which step corey forgot
<Burgundavia_> I am working off the stuff on the svn server that plov did while at the conf
<ChrisH> Is there perhaps a way to create a second Gnome session within the session in a window? Would simplify having an english version to write the dox.
<sivang> yes there is, I need to ask my gnome hackers freind over at gnome-love
<sivang> :)
<ChrisH> Thanks.
<plovs> back again
<plovs> sivang, yes we have a quickbook branch
<sivang> ok, Burgundavia_ needs help with commiting to it,
<sivang> couldn't we get a hold of horny?
<plovs> sivang, he's offline afaik
<plovs> sivang, can you patch? Burgundavia_could send you diffs
<sivang> ok, no prob
<sivang> Lemme update first..
<sivang> :)
<sivang> and checkout the quickguide branch
<sivang> what's the repo url?
<Burgundavia_> going for dinner
<Burgundavia_> nev mind about the diffs, I completely wiped out my change due to my stupidity
<plovs> sivang, it's a sub-folder in faq
<lulu> Dinner BOF - adios amigos :o)
<sivang> heheh
<sivang> adios lulu
<lulu> :o)
<plovs> sivang, awake?
<sivang> yes plovs, lmost :)
<sivang> also with a cold 
<plovs> sivang, poor guy!
<plovs> did you check out the svn repo?
<plovs> check out fq2, please
<sivang> not yet :) I'll update now.
<plovs> ok
<sivang> oh, a new dir?
<plovs> yes, my small project, for fun
<sivang> you said that the quickguide is under the same folder
<plovs> under /faq/quickguide
<plovs> does fq2 work in yelp?
<sivang> lemme check
<sivang> ChrisH : try to explore xnest, it made for exactly that purpose.
<ChrisH> sivang: tnx
<sivang> no prob buddy
<ChrisH> sivang: Hmmm... does not look very trivial...
<sivang> I know
<sivang> but it's worthwhile
<sivang> plovs : still checking out the stuff.. it takes tons of time..
<sivang> btw, does anybody know where is the contry teams web page?
<plovs> nope
<plovs> ok, i updated getting started and am of to bed
<plovs> night
* sivang is rebooting be back in a sec.
#ubuntu-doc 2005-12-26
<Burglaptop> mdke: didn't you want to speak to rob1?
<mdke> Burglaptop, for like the last 3 weeks :)
<mdke> rob1, you alive?
* mdke goes to bed
<Bonzodog> um
<Bonzodog> just before you go
<mdke> hi
<mdke> i never actually go to bed the first time anyway
<Bonzodog> how do you feel about the doc?
<Bonzodog> I'm going to write a mission statement on in 
<mdke> i hate the way you guys call it "the doc"
<Bonzodog> and about what it does, where we go
<mdke> otherwise, I've posted my feelings all over the forum
<Bonzodog> it's easier than UDSF
<mdke> i think it's a shame you guys don't use the Ubuntu wiki, but I accept your decision to keep it separate
<KingBahamut> well actually
<KingBahamut> UDSF has a cool Robotech like tone to it
<KingBahamut> just doesnt roll out of the mouth quite right
<mdke> heh
<Bonzodog> well we feel that it serves a slightly different purpose than the wiki
<KingBahamut> regardless, mark asked for an assesment in the meeting
<KingBahamut> for the next meeting on it 
<KingBahamut> from both sides 
<Bonzodog> our's is more about pulling documentation off the forums - how-to's etc
<KingBahamut> all we want to do is prep them for you guys 
<Bonzodog> and collecting this info in a central pool
<Bonzodog> so there is a definitive archive
<mdke> that can't be the only purpose
<Bonzodog> think of it like - the main wiki is the 'notice board'
<KingBahamut> it isnt
<mdke> because otherwise, it would make sense to use https://wiki.ubuntu.com/forum
<mdke> given that wikimedia uses a different markup
<KingBahamut> there are other forms of data
<Bonzodog> and we are more the 'library'
<KingBahamut> that couldnt possibly fit an Official status
<mdke> KingBahamut, the Ubuntu wiki is not "official" either, anyone can post to it
<KingBahamut> no I understand that 
<KingBahamut> never questioned it 
<KingBahamut> again the original concept of putting it up was to move all pertinent forum data 
<KingBahamut> related to process in an organized fashion
<Bonzodog> I like to think that we have a definitive role to play in archiving/selecting useful forum material
<KingBahamut> Andrew aka Azz
<mdke> as I said, I accept your decision
<KingBahamut> and many others attempt to motivate users to move data to the wiki
<KingBahamut> many dont 
<mdke> however, I personally believe that wiki.ubuntu.com/forum would suffice for that
<Bonzodog> most if not all of our material relates to the forums
<KingBahamut> is that data to be lost because the OP
<mdke> Bonzodog, no it doesn't, it relates to Ubuntu
<KingBahamut> doesnt want to move it?
<mdke> KingBahamut, which data would be lost?
<KingBahamut> Stuff written by users who would never move data to the wiki 
<KingBahamut> or want to 
<mdke> that argument applies to both wikis
<mdke> in both cases you need people to do the moving
<Bonzodog> this is why i think we can move data between both
<KingBahamut> most of the people who move data to the UDSF do it with the realization it will go elsewhere later 
<mdke> KingBahamut, e.g.?
<KingBahamut> many of them just dont want to put the effort into 
<mdke> Bonzodog, that is why a section of the main wiki would work better, because it is the same markup
<Bonzodog> and we ourselves are linking back to the wiki in some cases
<KingBahamut> moving it elsewhere 
<mdke> or alternatively, another moin server
<KingBahamut> or that the opinion that I get 
<KingBahamut> I think its desireability
<KingBahamut> but I have no control over the user
<KingBahamut> so 
<KingBahamut> It should be easily feasible to allow the move of such data
<KingBahamut> Ill even assign 3 members 
<KingBahamut> to do it
<KingBahamut> once the liscensing issues are corrected if you like 
<mdke> ok, well you asked for my opinion. I don't want to keep talking about it because I've spent a lot of hours doing that already. My opinion is, go ahead, do it, but i personally would use the section of the wiki dedicated to the forum directly, without a separate go between in a different markup
<KingBahamut> aye capn
<Bonzodog> the teams have to work together
<mdke> yeah, I'm glad that we can at least do that
<KingBahamut> like I say 
<KingBahamut> Ill devote half my team
<KingBahamut> to move the data 
<KingBahamut> for you guys 
<KingBahamut> I dont have an issue with that, and it will happen like it or not 
<KingBahamut> one way or the other 
<Bonzodog> and sabdfl has a good point about us maybe coming together in some way
<KingBahamut> you should benefit from it just as much as I do 
<Bonzodog> so we are all part of the same team
<KingBahamut> I dont want a stigma to occur just because a user prefers one place over the other 
<KingBahamut> in where he puts it 
<mdke> the thing is
<mdke> instead of having half a team doing one thing and half a team moving that over to another place, you'd save a lot of time working on one thing
<mdke> why can't we just combine our efforts?
<Bonzodog> I think in the end that will have to happen, we need to find an easier way of doing it
<mdke> i don't think the user would mind :) He'd get a better end result
<mdke> Bonzodog, ok, let's wait and see how it goes
<Bonzodog> I personally like mediawiki as software
* Burglaptop cheers!
<Bonzodog> it is a ver powerful bit of kit 
<mdke> yeah it's nice
<mdke> don't encourage Burglaptop though, keep it quiet
<Bonzodog> wikipedia haven't helped because their management of it has been poor
<Bonzodog> even though they wrote it
<mdke> Moin is great too :)
<Burglaptop> ugh
<mdke> lots of great stuff
<Bonzodog> I have noticed some basic similarities between the two markups
<Bonzodog> as i have a wiki login myself
<Bonzodog> for the main wiki
<mdke> yeah they are both easy to learn
<Bonzodog> have you seen my wiki homepage?
<mdke> nope
<Burglaptop> Bonzodog: they are similiar enough that a automatic script can convert them
<Bonzodog> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bonzodog
<mdke> i see it
<Burglaptop> mdke: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikiflow
<mdke> bookmarking, will read anon
<Bonzodog> mdke; am talking to others about how define the UDSF
<mdke> ok
<Bonzodog> this is what we have come to
<mdke> brainstorm it up on the wiki
<Bonzodog> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knowledgebase
<Bonzodog> is a basic definition of what people in UDSF see themselves doing..porting info from the forums, not written by themselves, and creating a knowledgebase
<mdke> all wikis are knowledgebases
<mdke> including the main Ubuntu one, if you want it to be
<Burglaptop> Bonzodog: you should talk to jbailey, he has a similar idea for LP
<Bonzodog> Kassetra is defining it nicely
<Bonzodog> i'm talking to her at the moment
<mdke> make sure you work in writing somewhere
<Bonzodog> but shes in one hell of a mood
<Bonzodog> I will do.
<Bonzodog> in fact..
<Bonzodog> hrm..
<Bonzodog> can i create an item on the official wiki about it?
<mdke> Bonzodog, you can create whatever you like in the wiki
<mdke> especially this
<Bonzodog> thank you
<Bonzodog> reight, I'm off to bed
<Bonzodog> will be back on in morning
<Madpilot> hi all
<Madpilot> Burglaptop: how're you doing?
<Burglaptop> Madpilot: better
<Burglaptop> boss wants to come to work tomorrow for a few hours before I go out to the staff party
<Burglaptop> told him that travel is what hurts, not being anywhere
<Madpilot> ouch. 
<Madpilot> if  you're still popping painkillers, the staff party might not be much fun either...
<Burglaptop> I will speak to him tomorrow and hopefully he will understand
<Burglaptop> the staff party will be a small affair at dinner
<Burglaptop> nothing much
<Madpilot> not a geekish boozefest? ;)
<Burglaptop> nope
<Burglaptop> all of our respective spouses will be there
<Madpilot> how civilized
<Madpilot> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UDSF  <-- odd - but at least they're talking to the DocTeam now...
<Burglaptop> Madpilot: yes, Bonzodog was in here previously
<Burglaptop> Madpilot: there was a cool link I gave mdke earlier about workflow stuff that mediawiki was considering
<Madpilot> the Wikiflow one?
<Burglaptop> it was on meta.wikimedia.org
<Madpilot> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikiflow <-- this one, right? about editing & such
<Burglaptop> yep
<Burglaptop> that is pretty much exactly what we need
<Madpilot> looks interesting
<Burglaptop> if we a simple script and two wiki engines, we could do some of what that does right away
<Burglaptop> simply create the doc on doc.u.c and then publish it to help.u.c
<Madpilot> yikes - that means running three wikis at the same time...
<Burglaptop> yes
<Burglaptop> one for the the develoers, which we don't care about
<Burglaptop> and two for us
<Burglaptop> but the help wiki would be restricted editing
<Burglaptop> only the people in the wiki group on LP would be able to edit the article
<Madpilot> so wiki.u.c would just be the devel/community stuff
<Burglaptop> yes
<Burglaptop> laptop testing team, etc
<Burglaptop> sadly moin is actually easier to do a rough hack, becasue of the mysql database that mediawiki has
<Madpilot> well, fire an email off to the list, and restart the "what do we do with the wiki" debate again ;)
<Burglaptop> but mediawiki allows you turn off editing to all articles but allow anon editing to talk pages
<Burglaptop> with one simple switch
<Burglaptop> to be clear, the article would still be able to be edited by admins
<jjesse> good morning, when someone has a chance could take a look at the new kubuntu/releasenotes i've uploaded and comment on them for me
<jjesse> in trunk/kubuntu/releasenotes/C/releasenotes.xml
<jjesse> it validates now
<k31th> yo
<jsgotangco> hey all
<jjesse> jsgotangco: if you have a second can you review kubuntu/releasenotes ?
<jsgotangco> jjesse, now?
<jjesse> doesn't have to be now, but i'm uploaded a lot of changes for dapper
<jjesse> so when you have some time
<jjesse> still more changes will come, i have Riddell looking at them as well
<jsgotangco> oh yeah, i saw the commit list
<jsgotangco> ok i gotta sleep
<jsgotangco> later
<jjesse> thanks have a good sleep
<mdke> aha
* mdke grabs highvoltage 
<mdke> highvoltage, i noticed that https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingRecords is edubuntu specific, do you mind if I rename it? I'll fix the links
<highvoltage> mdke: sure
<highvoltage> mdke: you can let go now :)
<mdke> oh sorry
* mdke releases highvoltage 
<jjesse> fear the master of the wiki
<Madpilot> hmm?
<jjesse> mdke was named master of the wiki in the community council meeting :)
<jjesse> just giving him a hard time for his bugging highvoltage 
<Madpilot> cool - I had to be at work during the last one...
* mdke grabs jjesse 
<jjesse> :)
* mdke hasn't let go yet
<jjesse> no please let go, i want to leave work :)
<theCore> mdke, as the master of the wiki, what are your new responsibilities ?
<theCore> mdke, btw congrat:) !
<jjesse> was sabdfl being sarcastic or???
* theCore is asking if he has misunderstood something :/
<theCore> s/asking/himself/
<theCore> i'm just confused n/m
<theCore> so, what is the joke ?
<jjesse> yesterday at the community council meeting mdke was talking about the license on the wiki and safdl menioned something about mdke being the master of the wiki
<jjesse> i don't know exactly what it means, but was giving him a hard time yesterday
<theCore> ah :)
* mdke hasn't let go yet
<mdke> long night at work for you
<highvoltage> mdke: sorry, lost my connection there for a while
<highvoltage> mdke: i looked at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingRecords, but it seems that it's already removed?
<mdke> yeah i moved it
<highvoltage> ok, np.
<Madpilot> mdke: without a redirect?
<mdke> yes
<mdke> i fixed all the links on the wiki
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> problem with a redirect is that the point of moving the page was that that page remains available for non-specific meeting records
<Madpilot> there is a web outside the Ubuntu wiki, you know ;)
<mdke> i'm aware of that yeah
<Madpilot> don't make it an auto-redirect, just have a link to the new Edubuntu page, or other meeting-record pages
<mdke> Madpilot, google has nothing on that page...
<mdke> but maybe you're right
<Madpilot> anyway, need to go. see you all later.
<mdke> cya
<mdke> I'll redirect it to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingAgendas
<mdke> how about that?
<Madpilot> sure
<Madpilot> must go...
<k31th> yo
<k31th> long tme no speak
<mdke> hello
<k31th> i hope to do some doc work for ubuntu, if thats possible ?
<mdke> you betcha
<mdke> you know more or less how we work?
<k31th> I have been using it mainly as a server and i will be using it more at work as soon as i take over in jan 
<mdke> ah cool
<mdke> the serverguide needs plenty of love
<k31th> then im stopping using centos and starting to use ubuntu
<k31th> mdke: sweet 
<k31th> im not to sure how you guys work tbh im signed upto the mailing list tho
<k31th> iv just had no time lately 
<mdke> ok cool
<mdke> a good place to start is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamGettingStarted
<k31th> when every thing calm down i can do some in my spare time at work between work :D 
<k31th> ahh nice ill have a read right after i decide how im going to backup all these remote boxes :D
<k31th> i need to find a way of backing up MS Exchange Database with a OS backup utility :D
<mdke> great
<k31th> one thing i will do is write some thing for bacula in ubuntu atm it is not covered
<k31th> as far as i know ?
<mdke> what is that
<k31th> its a OS backup util
<mdke> aha
<k31th> http://bacula.org 
<mdke> good candidate for a wiki page
<k31th> mdke: wiki page would be pufect 
<k31th> purfect
<mdke> ahhhh
<mdke> k31th, you use dovecot?
<k31th> i have used it 
<k31th> at work we are using some thing else. Iv used it set it up in ubuntu before
<mdke> i've been struggling with it ;)
<k31th> wat aspect of it ?
<mdke> couldn't connect to the imaps server
<mdke> just realised I had a stray sasl process blocking it
<k31th> you check logs ?
<k31th> ahh 
<mdke> the damn logs were totally empty
<k31th> actually talking of imap
<mdke> i was kinda wondering what the best imap server might be for Ubuntu
<mdke> its the first time I've set up email
<k31th> i tried conencting to our server at work the other day from home. and it just timed out ! thats using mozilla thunderbird as the client 
<mdke> brb just rebooting
<k31th> mdke: ell iv used courier
<k31th> well*
<mdke> that is not in main on Ubuntu iirc
<mdke> heard it's good tho
<k31th> mdke: hang on
<k31th> its univ i think?
<mdke> yes
<mdke> ok dovecot is working now anyhow :)
<k31th> skills
<k31th> im going to setup a mail server on this box when i have time!
<k31th> mdke: not a backup guru by any chance are you ???
<mdke> nope
<jjesse> i just got qemu working today so i'm running dapper in a virtual session :)
<jjesse> so i can stay live on the daily builds :)
<mdke> rock
<k31th> Odd my dad just came in asked me if i was going out i said no, and he gave me a beer 
<k31th> anyone alive ?
<mdke> yus
<manicka> yeah
#ubuntu-doc 2005-12-27
<manicka> mdke: I noticed the link to the UDSF was removed from the wiki frontpage and replaced with a link to the forum/delta
<mdke> manicka, i didn't notice that, I'm subscribed to that page
<mdke> show me
<manicka> hang on, let me check
<mdke> afaik, it's never been on the front page
<mdke> the forum delta has been on there for a long time tho
<manicka> hmmm, let me check my logs, I may have the wrong page
<mdke> yeah, i added the link to the forum delta page in July this year
<manicka> my apologies, I had the wrong page
<mdke> which page?
<manicka> Nothing has changed 
<mdke> ah
<manicka> that forum/delta page by the way is awful. I'm not surprised it hasn't been used very much
<mdke> manicka, awful in what way?
<manicka> the layout/structure
<mdke> manicka, you understand that it is not supposed to be a place for users to learn right?
<mdke> it is a drop-off point for people who don't want to learn how to edit the wiki properly, and just want to paste in material
<mdke> feel free to improve it, of course
<mdke> that's what a wiki is all about
<manicka> okay, the drop-off point concept had escaped me
<mdke> manicka, it's written right there on the page!
<manicka> lol, yeah I know
<mdke> first paragraph
<manicka> I should have read it more closely
<mdke> no wonder you don't like our wiki :(
<manicka> I didn't know of it's existence until today
<manicka> I never said I don't like the wiki
<manicka> I use it all the time :)
<mdke> manicka,  [23:51:53]  <@dc> charm 
<mdke> argh
<mdke> sorry bad paste
<mdke> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=81999
<mdke> there is an explanation of how it is intended to work there
<manicka> so how much of the stuff pasted there gets turned into userdocs
<mdke> i don't know
<mdke> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Postfix was originally there
<mdke> i guess whenever someone has some spare time
<mdke> that page still needs a fair amount of work too :)
<manicka> hmm, you need someone to take hold of that project and make it happen
<manicka> if users paste stuff there then it sits there for months, then there's not much incentive
<mdke> yeah that is very true
<mdke> taking a look now, some of the stuff is very out of date, it's obviously been sitting there a while
<Bonzodog> we have a different way of doing things..we have people who trawl the forums, and we work with other teams, and we get the tweaker teams to paste links in to use how-to's etc into a 'threads to doc' page. The TB team members then go through that page and start porting the stuff from the forums or sites linked to 
<Bonzodog> once it is added it is immediately accessible by anyone
<mdke> that's not a different way of doing things, it's the same, but more organised and with more people
<Bonzodog> there is no approval period
<mdke> think of what you call 'threads to doc' as the forum section on wiki.u.c, it's really the same thing
<mdke> when it comes down to it, the only difference is that regular work is going into it on gwos
<mdke> whereas wiki.u.c/forum is a bit more stagnant
<Bonzodog> you see 'threads to doc' only contains links, nothing else
<Bonzodog> also, the how-to's are forum guides, not official ways of doing things
<manicka> Bonzo: so are the userdocs on the wiki
<Bonzodog> they maybe a 'shortcut' that someone has found, or someones individual way of performing a well known but difficult tasks
<mdke> i don't see how that is a difference
<Bonzodog> we were always given to understand that the wiki would only host 'official' methods of doing things
<mdke> Bonzodog, define "official"
<Bonzodog> and the wiki edits would also be quarantined until they were seen as fit to add by a member of the doc team
<mdke> Bonzodog, we prefer to only add documents to the _index_ when they are finished and are fit for users yes, but otherwise, the wiki is totally open.
<mdke> you can create a page called "TalkingRubbish" and fill it with whatever you like, it's all open
<Bonzodog> 'official' - methods as defined in the software manuals and faq's
<mdke> Bonzodog, which software manuals and faqs?
<Bonzodog> i'm trying to think of the best definition. 
<mdke> there isn't one ;)
<manicka> bonzo: my understanding has always been that the userdocs sections are open to anyone
<mdke> or rather, if there is, it doesn't include even half of the material on the wiki
<Bonzodog> you see, i've entered into this argument late, and i'm trying desperately to understand why there is a dis-agreement between the two doc teams
<mdke> i was in it early, and I havne't got a clue
<manicka> lol, it's confusing at times
<Bonzodog> I do think gwos does serve a useful purpose, and that both wikis should co-exist
<mdke> Bonzodog, reasons?
<mdke> put them on that page :)
<Bonzodog> we are doing
<Bonzodog> It would be nice to be able to get launchpad recognition for being on the forum teams
<mdke> you have to ask the forum team admins
<jsgotangco> hey guys
<jsgotangco> mdke, grokking hard on the wiki eh?
<mdke> hello jerome
<mdke> doing some tidying
<jsgotangco> nice
<jsgotangco> anyways
<jsgotangco> mdke, were you able to check the logs 2 days ago about some random discussion we did here
<mdke> i saw it
<jsgotangco> the review thing
<mdke> oh no, not that
<mdke> remind me?
<jsgotangco> well i thought of having a revew week of sorts before every milestone comes out
<mdke> sounds like a clever idea, what would it entail?
<jsgotangco> i thought of writing again, but a lot stuff was already written and who knows what's on the mind of the current maintainers
<jsgotangco> i wouldn't want to be invasive when i start writing
<jsgotangco> so i thought of writing on the doc but in comments
<mdke> eh?
<mdke> there is so much stuff missing from the docs still :)
<jsgotangco> yes
<mdke> go ahead and write!
<jsgotangco> it was just an idea pulled off from REVU
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> the idea of reviewing stuff before milestones sounds good
<jsgotangco> and i think we should properly document ourselves first :)
<mdke> but I don't think you should get slowed down by anything
<jsgotangco> at least update our wiki pages
* jsgotangco grins
<mdke> there are already too few people working on the docs
<jsgotangco> not at all
<mdke> jsgotangco, sure we can work on the wiki pages, but they are actually not too bad
<jsgotangco> mdke, i just thought of pretty wild ideas while i was drunk with 3 cans of red bull
<mdke> hehe
<mdke> the wiki pages do need love, definitely
<mdke> i was thinking we should move to a subpage
<jsgotangco> not a bad idea
<jsgotangco> it'll still get indexed by the search engine right?
<mdke> yes
<mdke> ooh nice Navigation macro
<mdke> who wrote that?
<mdke> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility
<jsgotangco> henrik or perhaps luke
<mdke> oh it comes with Moin doh
<mdke> looks like they've customised it tho
<jsgotangco> there is pretty good progress with the a11y team
<mdke> looks good
<mdke> thats really great
<mdke> -> bed
<jsgotangco> later
<k31th> Morning all
<Madpilot> hi
<k31th> Madpilot: watsup ?
<Madpilot> not much, just finishing Christmas wrapping
* jsgotangco awaits a gift from canada somewhere in victoria
<Madpilot> jsgotangco: not this year, sorry :P
* rob1 pokes his head in
* mdke grabs rob1 
<rob1> hi mdke 
<mdke> hello :(
<rob1> ?
<mdke> where have you been?
<rob1> busy
<rob1> end of year stuff with work (admin crap), family bbqs and stuff
<mdke> so what shall we do with the desktopguide?
<mdke> we tried to have a meeting last week...
<mdke> can we try again?
<rob1> yeah
<rob1> when?
<mdke> rob1, whenever you can actually turn up
<mdke> any times when you can definitely make it?
<jsgotangco> rob1, i asked IOSN about you but they prefer people from developing countries
<rob1> mdke, I don't remember seeing a time set
<rob1> jsgotangco, sure np
<mdke> rob1, it was last sunday
<rob1> jsgotangco, thanks
<mdke> this sunday is not an option, maybe next week?
<rob1> umm..
<jsgotangco> rob1, maybe you can say you're on asylum haha
<rob1> heh
<rob1> mdke, who apart from the two of us do you want to have attend the meeting?
<mdke> Madpilot
<mdke> if poss, and anyone else who will work on the desktopguide
<rob1> maybe we need some kind of wiki page where intrested people can put their names down? perhaps put down a suggested time?
<mdke> sure
<mdke> but you have to be there, IMO
<Madpilot> OgMaciel was interested too
<mdke> so I'll work around you
<rob1> well I have nothing on tonight if those people happen to be around (for the next 5 hours or so
<rob1> mdke, Madpilot is around now if your keen
<mdke> i'm at work, will have to go in a minute
<mdke> :(
<rob1> ah dang
<Madpilot> it's 0136 here, need sleep soon
<rob1> dam time difference
<mdke> rob1, we'll go the wiki page route I guess, we can email too
<rob1> yeah ok
<jsgotangco> rob1, let's move elsewhere, like mdke 's pad 
<rob1> sure why not!
<mdke> hmm
<jsgotangco> rob1, he's a lawyer, i'm sure he can let us bum around
<mdke> i bet sabdfl's place is nicer
<jsgotangco> and he can feed us forever
<rob1> yeah, hes gotta be cashed up
<rob1> him too
<jsgotangco> yeah but he already has a posse while mdke still has to create one while his empire grows
<rob1> heh
<jsgotangco> better to start early
<mdke> true
<rob1> free food/money/airline tickets would help!
<mdke> rob1, one quick thing
<rob1> yeah
<mdke> is the "mk" file in the desktopguide folder the up to date one?
<mdke> if so, let's switch to using that
<jsgotangco> mdke, adopt us and we can do ubuntu work under your name
<jsgotangco> heh
<rob1> no, I move it all to the proper make file
<rob1> +d
<mdke> rob1, i like the idea of using decentralised makefiles, it will be easier to keep the main makefile under control, and for translations
<mdke> does that "mk" one work?
<rob1> mdke, sure I have no problem with that
<rob1> I think its a bit dated, might not include everything it needs to
<mdke> ok i'll compare the two
<rob1> you could just copy/paste from the original make file
* mdke nods
<rob1> whos been going screenshot crazy on svn?
<rob1> well thumbs anyway
<mdke> mgalvin, they are from his dapper release notes thing on the wiki
<rob1> ah
<mdke> ok -> work
<mdke> later all
<rob1> cya
* mdke comes back
<rob1> ?
<rob1> did you quit?
<jsgotangco> see?
<jsgotangco> our favorite barrister doesn't need to work!
<jsgotangco> the money just comes in!
<mdke> yeah my supervisor isn't in yet and i have nothing on
<mdke> Madpilot, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ApacheMySQLPHP <-- rock!
<mdke> just noticing some hot stuff on the wiki
<jsgotangco> mdke, wow i didn't know lawyers had supervisors...
<mdke> jsgotangco, trainee lawyers do
<jsgotangco> ahhh
<mdke> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Madwifi-ng
<mdke> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WelcomeToPython
<rob1> In russia, the lawyers supervise you!
<jsgotangco> mdke, a little grease doesn't hurt
<jsgotangco> lol
<jsgotangco> joke
<Madpilot> mdke: a fair bit of that page is from either the wiki or was already there; I've just done a lot of editing & a few additions
<rob1> whats with the odd google logos on google?
<mdke> Madpilot, isn't it ready for UserDocumentation?
<mdke> oh its there
<mdke> weird
<jsgotangco> holiday doodle
<mdke> didn't see it when I did a title search :(
<mdke> stupid moin
<Madpilot> mdke: no, it's there, and it's fine, but most of it isn't actually my work, that's all ;)
<mdke> Madpilot, np, it's great anyway
<Madpilot> mdke: you writing wiki articles for the Fridge, then?
<mdke> ?
<mdke> you mean, an entry about cool wiki pages?
<Madpilot> yeah, that's what I meant...
<mdke> that is the greatest idea ever
<Madpilot> wasn't it brought up at the last DocTeam meeting or last CC Meeting?
* Madpilot is getting his meetings confused...
* mdke doesn't remember it
<mdke> perhaps we can include it in the docteam newsletter idea
<rob1> umm.. someone was asking us about wiki pages the other day for the fridge
<mdke> ah, who?
<mdke> if we can put together a nice newsletter, we can ask for it to be posted on the fridge
<rob1> umm..
<rob1> c- something
<rob1> crimsum?
<mdke> could be?
<mdke> i've only seen whiprush and jdub posting to the fridge
<Madpilot> crimsun?
<jsgotangco> mr. fridge and fridge jr.
<rob1> might have been whiprush 
<rob1> it was someone..
<mdke> ok let's let them ,know we'll prepare a rocking newsletter, on the wiki, and post it around the place
<mdke> UDN style
<Madpilot> sounds good to me
<rob1> yeah we (the people around at the time) did, and gave them several wiki pages to look at featuring
<mdke> ah cool
<Madpilot> need sleep - later, all
<rob1> cya Madpilot 
<Kamping_Kaiser> later mate
<k31th> is anyone else having a problem with this mirror ?? http://seveas.ubuntulinux.nl
<mdke> k31th, you have to try in #ubuntu about that sort of thing
<k31th> ok
<dholbach> are you aware of this breakage:
<dholbach> cp libs/ubuntu-book.css ../build/ubuntu/desktopguide/
<dholbach> Complete. Find outputs at ../build/ubuntu/desktopguide/C/
<dholbach> make[1] : *** No rule to make target `dg-IT', needed by `dg'.  Stop.
<dholbach> make[1] : Leaving directory `/tmp/buildd/ubuntu-docs-5.12.4/ubuntu'
<dholbach> make: *** [debian/stamp-makefile-build]  Error 2
<dholbach> i'll drop dg-IT from the dg Makefile target and put up a debdiff of the changes i did online, so you can maybe feed it back to svn
<jsgotangco> hello
<Kamping_Kaiser> hi
<jjesse> morning :)
<jsgotangco> hey jjesse i started hacking on your doc today
<jjesse> jsgotangco: awesome
<jjesse> hack away hack away all
<jjesse> jsgotangco: lots of changes?
<jsgotangco> sort of are you doing changes at the moment?
<jjesse> none today
<jsgotangco> can you hold of till monday?
<jjesse> after work on friday i'll be !internet for a week
<jsgotangco> great
<jjesse> so if possible i would like to be able to sync around friday 5pm EST (i'm -5 UTC)
<jjesse> and be able to hack away at things while i'm at my in-laws
<jsgotangco> hmm ok i won't touch the doc then
<jsgotangco> i'll update the quickguide instead
<jjesse> well if you do the release notes, i gues i can work on the desktop guide ?
<jsgotangco> sure
<jsgotangco> i havent really looked at the other guides really
<jjesse> anyone know if the desktopguide is ready to be worked on for kubuntu?
<mdke> dholbach, thanks i'll fix it
<mdke> my bad
<jsgotangco> ?
<mdke> jsgotangco, daniel found an error in the makefile
<dholbach> mdke: the other thing is, the "script" in debian/README should refer to debian/README.Debian, not debian/README.debian
<dholbach> (capital D)
<dholbach> that's all i changed apart from adding a changelog entry
<jsgotangco> oh is mdke packaging?
<mdke> dholbach, ok great, stick the diff up if you like
<mdke> jsgotangco, no...
<mdke> dholbach, but we really need to get you svn access for this stuff :)
<dholbach> haha ;)
* jsgotangco hums
<dholbach> mdke: http://ubuntu.gplan.info/tiny.patch
<dholbach> hmhmhmmh: http://ubuntu.gplan.info/docs/tiny.patch
<dholbach> oops sorry, did the diff the wrong way around
<dholbach> apply it with -R please
<mdke> dholbach, i'll just do it manually, np
<dholbach> patch -p1 -R < tiny.patch       should do
<mdke> alrighty
<dholbach> -p0 might too
<jsgotangco> i see greatness at work
<dholbach> i'm off for getting christmas presents - see you
<jsgotangco> dholbach, later, i'll expect it from the post then
<jsgotangco> =)
<mgalvin> mdke_: did you start a newsletter wiki page yet?
<jjesse> for one of the docs that i have mostly finished, switching you friend to kubuntu, i need to add accessing windows partition, is this the best spot to go? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AutomaticallyMountMSWindowsPartitions
<mgalvin> jjesse: its overly verbose but looks like it will work
<mgalvin> (at a quick glance)
<jjesse> mgalvin: thanks, should have looked at the FAQ Guide first
<jjesse> the one that we publish :)
<mgalvin> :)
#ubuntu-doc 2005-12-28
<jsgotangco> "MoreRecentMadwifiHowto"
<jsgotangco> lol
<mdke_> mm?
<mdke_> Burglaptop, wtf?
<jsgotangco> nice title
<Burglaptop> mdke_: what is it?
<mdke_> np, i see it, the redirect is to a dud address
<Burglaptop> I am cleaning up old wiki pages
<mdke_> yeah, you can't use ["blah"]  in the REDIRECT
<mdke_> just #REDIRECT Madwiki-ng does the trick
<Burglaptop> ah bloody hell, #$%ERWT^%@$%$@#$%@$W#WERTWE$^% moin
<mdke_> can't we just delete the page "MoreRecentetc"?
<mdke_> it's a silly name anyhow
<Burglaptop> sure, I am just being paranoid
<mdke_> google shows nothing of interest really, i'm gonna nuke it :)
<Burglaptop> can we nuke old main inclusion reports?
<Burglaptop> hmm, moin 1.5 is about to be released
<Burglaptop> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BootGrub
<mdke_> there are loads... i think we should, but best ask mdz or kamion or pitti or someone
<jsgotangco> mdke_, wow i thought the server guide had lots of love...its like 75% empty at the moment
<Burglaptop> hmm, none of them appear to be one right now
<mdke_> jsgotangco, that's right
<Burglaptop> should I just delete /forum/ stuff?
<jsgotangco> excellent
<mdke_> Burglaptop, eh?
<mdke_> no!
<Burglaptop> mdke_: stuff under /forum that has been moved into the main namespace
<mdke_> Burglaptop, yes, if it is duplicate, sure
<Burglaptop> ok
<Burglaptop> mdke_: how are you google searching for wiki pages?
* jsgotangco fires up metallica to start the day
<mdke_> putting in the name of the page
<mdke_> anyone know anything about MythTV?
<mdke_> looks like we have two duplicate pages that need merging...
<mdke_> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/InstallMythOnUbuntu
<mdke_> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MythTV
<Burglaptop> I have never touched it
<Burglaptop> holy crap we are having almost tropical weather right now'
<Burglaptop> really heavy rain and thunder, almost unheardof heere
<jsgotangco> ?
<mdke_> cool
<jsgotangco> it doesnt snow in victoria?
<jsgotangco> its getting quite cold over here in manila
<Burglaptop> jsgotangco: once a year, and it stays for about 2 days
<jsgotangco> lol
<jsgotangco> that's sad
<jsgotangco> at least a week's worth of snow is fun
<Burglaptop> no, its great. I hate snow
<jsgotangco> lol i like snow for a really short time
<mdke_> snow is pretty
<Burglaptop> yes, it is. On skihills
<jsgotangco> until your neighbor's dog decides to take a dump
* jsgotangco have been working too much lately
<Burglaptop> I haven't been working enough
<Burglaptop> mdke_: what was the result of the CC meeting on wiki licensing?
<jsgotangco> how is it working in userful?
<Burglaptop> good
<mdke_> Burglaptop, approved, subject to the changes I've made on the page
<Burglaptop> mdke_: so we are going with CC-PD?
<mdke_> yes
<Burglaptop> excellent
<Burglaptop> thanks for taking the lead on that
<mdke_> no problem
* Burglaptop wonders why SANE bothers shipping libsane-extras if they suck
<jsgotangco> because they dont have anything more decent than that?
<Burglaptop> what is in that packages is apparently backends that suck
<Burglaptop> to me, either ship them whole hog or don't ship them at all
<Burglaptop> mdke_: you want to add the Hula article to the mail page?
<Burglaptop> jsgotangco, mdke_: either of you have a scanner present?
<mdke_> no to the latter question
<mdke_> probably, no to the former too: hula isn't actually production ready is it?
<Burglaptop> mdke_: not really
<Burglaptop> but mention that it isn't
* mdke_ shrugs
<mdke_> i don't have a problem with that
<mdke> but it should be obvious that if someone wants a serious mail server, they shouldn't rely on that
<mdke> oh crap another thing is procmail
* mdke goes to look for an article on that
<jsgotangco> i have a really crappy scanner
<jsgotangco> that my wife only uses on osx
<Burglaptop> jsgotangco: that would be great
<Burglaptop> ScanningHowTo needs to be expanded
<jsgotangco> no it isn't really
<jsgotangco> its a Brother scanner
<jsgotangco> possibly the worst brand you can get in asia
<jsgotangco> but sure i
<jsgotangco> i'll try
<Burglaptop> posted a request to ubuntu-users and -doc to get help on the scanning pagse
<jsgotangco> hello King of Dragons
<KingBahamut> lol
<KingBahamut> I am not kind
<KingBahamut> er
<KingBahamut> king
<KingBahamut> just a guy
<Kamping_Kaiser> hi kb
<Burglaptop> KingBahamut, Kamping_Kaiser: Do either of you own a scanner?
<Kamping_Kaiser> yeh, it's up in the house somewhere
<KingBahamut> lol
<KingBahamut> 2 
<KingBahamut> er
<KingBahamut> no
<KingBahamut> 3 in the house
<KingBahamut> why?
<Burglaptop> Kamping_Kaiser: I command thee to go to ScanningHowTo and help the page out
<mdke> lol
<KingBahamut> Kamping_Kaiser, say "Yes My Liege"
<Burglaptop> be careful, I have a wet noodle I know how to use it!
<Kamping_Kaiser> verily, it (may) be done
<Burglaptop> mostly I am interested in what happens when it doesn't work
<Burglaptop> but the when it does could be filled out a little too
<KingBahamut> If I ever become an evil overlord, and one of my advisors says "My liege he is but one man, what can he possibly do?" I will say "This!!!!" and shot the advisor immeidately 
<Kamping_Kaiser> lol. love that
<KingBahamut> Peter Ansbach is the man 
* Kamping_Kaiser tosses up working on cv or wiki
<Burglaptop> can I nuke this finally? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NewUserGuideMultimedia
<jsgotangco> brb kernel reboot
* Burglaptop goes bold
* Kamping_Kaiser makes Burglaptop italic
<mdke> Burglaptop, is it duplicate?
<Burglaptop> mdke: NewUserGuideM? yes
<Burglaptop> RestrictedFormats and a few other pages cover it
<mdke> sure, bin
<mdke> no links on wiki
<mdke> ah, check ubotu, i think it has it
<Burglaptop> ugh, ya
<mdke> np, just get ubotu to drop it
<Burglaptop> do we have rights over it?
<mdke> yeah, it's open
<Burglaptop> http://ubuntu.cc.com.au/?q=NewUserGuideMultimedia&b=Find+%BB disagrees with !multimedia
<mdke> disagrees?
<mdke> RestrictedFormats and MultimediApplications probably cover everything
<Burglaptop> !multimedia brings me nothing, but the website claims it has !multimedia
<mdke> ask an ubotu geek i guess
<Burglaptop> bloody locales bug
<Burglaptop> I don't know how to get past it
<KingBahamut> its good to sit in this channel and here proper use of the word bloody
<KingBahamut> I never hear it where I live now 
<jsgotangco> its still there?
* jsgotangco havent updated his vanilla flight 2 yet
<mdke> what locales bug?
<mdke> didn't notice anything
<jsgotangco> pitti made a massive change in the use of locales 2 days ago
<mdke> yeah, works here tho
<Burglaptop> straight upgrading breaks and forcing it doesn't seem to work
<mdke> ah, my upgrade dipped out on locales once actually
<mdke> i just did another upgrade and it worked
<jsgotangco> ill try upgradeing later
<jsgotangco> but its not in my todo list atm
<jsgotangco> heh
<Madpilot> hi all
<jsgotangco> hey
<mdke> hiya
<Burglaptop> salut Madpilot
<Madpilot> hi Burglaptop
<Burglaptop> Madpilot: you headed to maria's on sat?
<Madpilot> Burgwork: yes - you at C's still?
<Burglaptop> Madpilot: yep
<Burglaptop> Madpilot: taking the truck?
<Madpilot> yes, I've got it already
<Burglaptop> Madpilot: can you pick me up at Curious Comics at 2pm on Sat?
<Madpilot> Burglaptop: it's going to have to be earlier than that - the ferry is at 2:30
<Madpilot> call me @ Clive's right now?
<Burglaptop> Madpilot: calling
<mdke> jjesse, around?
<mdke> lol@ Burglaptop's use of the term "real estate" on the wiki
<jsgotangco> wow this is a rarity, most of us are online
<mdke> heh
<mdke> 2.30 am
<mdke> i don't have work tomorrow :)
<jsgotangco> same here
<jsgotangco> until the 26th
<mdke> i'm off until the 5th :)
<mdke> thank god
<Kamping_Kaiser> didnt know there was this many people :O
<jsgotangco> well i can go back to work next year if i have too
<jsgotangco> i just have too many things to do at the moment
<mdke> :(
<jsgotangco> there are times i have to turn over work offers
<mdke> mm?
<jsgotangco> i get invited to do some external doc projects for a fee, its just converting to docbook really but good money 
<jsgotangco> most of them are foss related as well
<Burglaptop> jsgotangco: that is cool
<mdke> no time tho?
<jsgotangco> mdke, yeah i once tried recommending rob but they prefer someone from developing countries
<jsgotangco> (its the United Nations thing)
<jsgotangco> there are tangible projects that involve writing new material but they just can't find good foss people active in projects in the region
* mdke nods
<mdke> hey Burglaptop, there are loads of Bugs subpages, but no parent, perhaps we could make an index, and include things like BugReports
<Burglaptop> mdke: can do
<mdke> cool
<Burglaptop> isn't there some sane bug reporting stuff that dholbach was working on?
<mdke> no sure, there are a lot of bug pages on the wiki ;)
<Burglaptop> it was a spec that he was working on
<Madpilot> Burglaptop: just read part of the backscroll - when you're in pm with the bot, leave the ! off the commands - so !multimedia is never going to work, but just multimedia does...
<Burglaptop> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/best-practices-bugs
<mdke> hey robitaille 
<mdke> gah
<mdke> hey rob1, too
<rob1> hi mdke 
<robitaille> hi mdke 
<mdke> :)
<mdke> rob1, how about we arrange a good meeting time now?
* rob1 tries to eat hot meat pie and not spill on keyboard
<mdke> mmmmm
<rob1> I've already lost one keyboard to a cup of coffee
<jsgotangco> right now?
<rob1> a few weeks ago
<Madpilot> I lost one to a big cup of tea last year - burned my foot too...
<robitaille> I don't drink coffee or tea, so I'm must be safe
<rob1> I lost one at work due to spag bowl
<robitaille> but my boss once lost a keyboard caused by  7-11 Big Gulp full of soda
<Madpilot> robitaille: ha! water does quite nicely at kb killing
<robitaille> that's it; no water for me from now on!
<Madpilot> so does cat pee - a friend lost a keyboard that way a few years ago :P
<rob1> tomato paste is quite bad once it finds its way through
<mdke> you guys are gourmet keyboard ruiners
<jsgotangco> bah only shows you guys dont leave your computers at all
* rob1 just finished a glass of diet coke, at the bottom was a dried up milk ring.. yuck!
<mdke> yuck indeed
<mpt> mmmm, Dairy Coke
<mdke> so can we talk meeting, or should I sleep?
<rob1> sure
<rob1> umm
<rob1> what would be a good time for people?
<jsgotangco> what does it take to become the next cd cover model
<jsgotangco> hehe
<mdke> I'm gonna be away between tomorrow and tuesday I think
<mdke> otherwise I should be relatively free, within normal UTC daytime hours
<Madpilot> 1400Z is OK, if it's the least-worst time for you folks in .au & elsewhere eastward
<rob1> yeah this weekend will be busy for everyone I think
<Madpilot> Date-wise, I'm not free until after the 26th
<jsgotangco> all that food and free time...
<jsgotangco> that's deadly
<mdke> hmm I'm not around during the afternoon on the 27th, could make the evening though
<rob1> could we make it on 1000z on 27th?
<mdke> perhaps even late evening, if rob1 has wednesday morning free
<Madpilot> evening which time zone?
<mdke> rob1, ah that sounds good
<mdke> might be made for MP tho
<mdke> made/bad*
<rob1> thats like 8pm for me
<Madpilot> 1000Z is 0200 local I think
<mdke> hmm
<Madpilot> yes, it is...
<mdke> i might still be away too
<mdke> 22utc on 27th?
<mdke> let's keep shooting times at each other
<rob1> thats.. umm 8am on the 28th for me
<Madpilot> evening UTC is no good, I always work afternoons
<mdke> ah right
<mdke> hmm
<rob1> heh I don't wake up before 9am on holidays ;)
<mdke> maybe next weekend...
<jsgotangco> why not just meet after the new year
<jsgotangco> hehe
<rob1> except I'm sure my kids will get me up on christmas day at like 5am
<mdke> hehe
<Madpilot> Next weekends are Xmas & New Years, remember...
<jsgotangco> how expensive are kids in au during christmas
<rob1> jsgotangco, very
<jsgotangco> like everyone of them are asking for a game console?
<mdke> can any of the meeting agenda items be address by email?
<rob1> nar I have an xbox, the new one isn't out here yet
<Madpilot> mdke: most of them could, probably
<rob1> and besides, I'd buy that for me
<jsgotangco> lol
<mdke> Madpilot, i'd like that, but the threads I started before didn't go anywhere
* jsgotangco is thinking of getting a PSP for himself
<mdke> hey mpt, i wanted to ask, what's the status on AboutUbuntu? any mockup or anything? just curious
<mdke> rob1, if we try email, do you promise to reply? :)
<rob1> just like the bathurst racing car set and the remote control car I bought for.. umm.. my "son".
<mpt> mdke, I haven't touched the code since UBZ, but I plan to finish it up during the Christmas~New-Year break
<rob1> mdke, yeah email the list would be the best bet
<Madpilot> rob1: do you at least allow your kids to *look* at your toys? :P
<mdke> mpt, that would be awesome, what state is it in now?
<rob1> Madpilot, I need someone to race againt on the slot car track!
<mdke> rob1, ok, we'll try!
<mpt> mdke, mostly working, except there's a stray backslash etc in the version number, Ctrl+W doesn't close the window, and there's no drag-and-drop yet
<mdke> oh cool, got a screenshot or something?
<mpt> mdke, not at the moment sorry, where I'm staying only has dialup, and my Ubuntu machine doesn't
<mdke> mpt, np I'll look forward to seeing it anyway :)
<mdke> -> sleep
<mdke> oh jjesse, DocumentationTeam/News on the wiki needs some Kubuntu love, if you're around
<jsgotangco> i'll cover that
<jsgotangco> he'll be out for a week
<mdke> ah bummer, thanks
<jsgotangco> you seem disappointed that i'm going to do it :)
<mdke> no, disappointed that he's not around, he has been doing lots of work on the kubuntu side
<mdke> but happy if you do it, of course
<jsgotangco> =)
* Burglaptop tries to bring the wiki server to its knees
<Madpilot> doing what, exactly?
<Burglaptop> try to force it to give me RecentChanges for more than 90 days
<Madpilot> why are you digging that deep?
<Burglaptop> to try and find pages that have not been touched since the wiki move
<Madpilot> you really are bored, aren't you? :P
<Madpilot> there's an OrphanPages macro too, if you want to go at it that way for old cruft...
<Burglaptop> not really, just a little stircrazy
<Madpilot> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpOnMacros <-- look for the AbandonedPages macro
<Burglaptop> yes, looking at that now
<Madpilot> anyway, back later - shopping run...
<Burglaptop> well, I think I just killed our wiki server
<crimsun> hooray?
<rob1> ?
<Burglaptop> I opened about 35 windows, each of which needs to be processed
<Burglaptop> in case you missed it, I am deleting pages
<rob1> nah its working here
<Burglaptop> and moving UDU bofs to underneath UbuntuBelowZero
<Burglaptop> make that UDU
<rob1> go nuts, I just fried my brain with a little bit of python, so I'm done doing anything useful for the day
<Burglaptop> rob1: what sort of pits of python and what for?
<rob1> classes
<Burglaptop> ah
<rob1> lots of pennies dropped here
<rob1> suddenly reading other people code makes a lot more sense too
<jsgotangco> wow so you're learning python
<rob1> I've been meaning to do so for about 2+ years
<rob1> I have several books collecting dust, along with all my old mcse stuff
<jsgotangco> haha
<jsgotangco> my mcp just went to waste
<jsgotangco> well actually i wasted good money for that
<Burglaptop> jsgotangco: so did I
<jsgotangco> Burglaptop, wiki spammer :P
<Burglaptop> hey, it is a dirty job, but someone has to do it
* rob1 kicked one of the msce folders full of books just a second ago, which cought the mouse cable and sent the mouse flying off my desk
<Burglaptop> jsgotangco: got any serious objections, or are you just throwing poo from the sidelines?
<jsgotangco> Burglaptop, hehe don't take it seriously =)
<jsgotangco> its not like i didnt know what .* will do in the first place =)
<Burglaptop> jsgotangco: ok. do shout if you see anything you think should be saved/not done
<Madpilot> Burglaptop: you've produced 5 screens of RecentChanges stuff... my god!
<jsgotangco> yes you have a wiki monster for a brother
<Burglaptop> I am bored so I am doing something
<jsgotangco> wake up your gf?
<Burglaptop> no, my GF has friends over and the pain is too much for me to be able to be out with company right now
<rob1> slap the salami?
<Burglaptop> rob1: ouch
<Burglaptop> so I am taking my pain out of the wiki
<Burglaptop> Madpilot: only 5 pages?
<Madpilot> Burglaptop: OK, six now... 
<Burglaptop> I might be able to make 10 by the time I go to sleep
<Burglaptop> but the wiki is being slow for me with these pages that take computational power
<jsgotangco> are you sure there's only 1 Corey burger doing those edits
<jsgotangco> hehe
<Burglaptop> yep
* jsgotangco is just in awe of your concentration
<Burglaptop> one very very bored corey burger
<Burglaptop> thsi cleanup has needed to be done for a while
<Madpilot> it's actually a BurgerBot :P
<jsgotangco> rob1, hmm i didnt know people magazine in au had naked chicks
<jsgotangco> my god the email notification comes in almost every 5 seconds heh
<rob1> heh
<rob1> you can send in photos of yourself and they will print them, chicks and guys
<rob1> there are usually 3 to 4 pages of "home girls" at the back
<rob1> I think you can win money or something too
<jsgotangco> "model citizens"
<rob1> there are always a lot of backpacker chicks in there
<Burglaptop> jsgotangco: I am about to go to sleep
<rob1> one of the guys at work had his girlfriend in there a few months ago, she was sitting on his car
<Madpilot> jsgotangco: you're subscribed to the entire wiki? Insane...
<rob1> ouch
<jsgotangco> People magazine in NA is a celebrity mag
<jsgotangco> hehe
<rob1> heh
<rob1> Dear Robert Thank you for emailing LG Electronics. Unfortunately you will need the remote control to remove the child lock. You can purchase a remote control from Statewide Appliances on 1800 005 220. I hope this has been of assistance Merry Christmas Karine LG Electronics
<rob1> great, now how am I supposed to watch the pool instruction video?
<rob1> bloody LG
<Madpilot> hmm?
<Burglaptop> in the last two hours, there are have 2 edits that were not made by me
<Madpilot> rob1: I'm intrigued - what do child locks & LG Elect. have to do with pool videos?
<rob1> I lost the remote control to my VCR
* rob1 wonders why they even bothered to put buttons on the vcr its self
<Madpilot> ... and you've got something set so the offspring can't use the VCR unsupervised, that can only be removed w/ the remote?
<rob1> yeah, its like that by default
<rob1> apparently the vcr talks too..
<rob1> I wish it could tell me where the remote is
<jsgotangco> nice
<Madpilot> talking appliances bug me... I always hear, "I'm sorry, I can't do that, Dave."
<Burglaptop> Madpilot's computer says "Power on self test completed. Now booting operating system"
<Burglaptop> at least it doesn't say  "Now booting Windows"
<rob1> I used to have an intel mobo that did something like that
<Madpilot> ... lovely ASUS bonus system :)
<Madpilot> I wanted to reprogram it w/ HAL 9000s voice, but the ASUS voice editing apps are Windows only
<Burglaptop> given ASUSes attitude towards Linux/BSD, I am surprised it doesn't say 
<Burglaptop> Windows
<rob1> heh apparetly some guy has figured out how to run Linux as a Windows screensaver
<jsgotangco> mmm?
<rob1> http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/linux/library/l-scrnsave/
<jsgotangco> WOW
<Madpilot> very strange... so you get to look at a decent OS, but when you touch the mouse it goes back to Windows :P
<rob1> some guy = IBM
<rob1> no, there are screenshots
<jsgotangco> someone had lots of time in his hands
<rob1> yeah not wrong
<rob1> I wonder how useful this would be as a ready made demo?
<Burglaptop> we should publish an official Ubuntu one
<rob1> ubuntu express will be exactly that, no reboot even!
<Burglaptop> yes, but the screensaver allows an even lower cost
<jsgotangco> well we do have a vmware image that can run on vmware player
<rob1> jsgotangco, yes, but this way you don't even need vmware player
<jsgotangco> true you just provide an exe file
<rob1> I wonder if it runs faster?
<Burglaptop> night all, I am done spamming your inboxes
<rob1> night Burglaptop 
<Madpilot> night
<rob1> heh it uses qemu
<jsgotangco> rob1, if you use vodaphone i can send you all the mobile stuff you want
<jsgotangco> hehe
<jsgotangco> incluing the pretty wallpapers you see in people
<rob1> nup, don't have a mobile
<jsgotangco> dug
<rob1> I hate people calling me when I'm doing stuff ;)
<jsgotangco> heh i built the mobilemojo.com machine
* Madpilot does a wiki edit just to move some of the BurgerBot's edits off the page... :P
<mdke> hmm Burgwork you moved the specs anyway?
<mdke> what is UbuntuDownBelow?
<jjesse> mdke: when you get a second, can you add releasenotes for dapper under the kubuntu work in progress?
<mdke> jjesse, sure, it builds ok yeah?
<jjesse> yes sir, verifies and everything
<mdke> great, nice work dude
<jjesse> thanks hopefully Riddell will get a chance to take a look at it so we can get it included
<mdke> I'm sure we will: plenty of time before dapper is released
<jjesse> are we going w/ the release # or code name in the docs?
<jjesse> mdke: do you know why when i build the web version of release notes it goes into kubuntu/build/release-notes-web?? I thought builds should go into build/kubuntu/
<mdke> jjesse, must be a mistake in the makefile, I'll do it
<mdke> as long as it validates, there will be no problem
<jjesse> mdke: if i do a make release-notes-web it goes into that location, if i do a make release-notes it goes to kubuntu/build/release-notes
<jjesse> if i do a make rn (which I thought I was supposed to be doing) it goes to trunk/build/kubuntu/releasenotes/C/
<mdke> oh hang on... that might be intentional I suppose
<mdke> i'll take a look later
<jsgotangco> hey all
<jsgotangco> happy holidays!
<mdke> jjesse, yeah looks like that might be intentional, best ask Riddell
<mdke> hi jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> mmmm?
<jsgotangco> mdke, this is about?
<mdke> jsgotangco, the kubuntu docs get built in /trunk/kubuntu/build rather than /trunk/build/kubuntu
<mdke> looks like it might be intentional so I'd like to check with riddell
<jsgotangco> ahhh
<mdke> jjesse, i believe _all_ the kubuntu docs get built there, don't they?
<jsgotangco> jjesse, are you going to do an update on kubuntu? what specific doc?
<mpt> jjesse, the rule we're approaching for Launchpad is codename for URLs, version number for everything else
<mpt> because after a codename has been decided, it stays the same, even if the version number slips
<mpt> that lets you write docs with an unbreaking URL before the release, even if the release slips by a month or two
<mdke> mpt, the Ubuntu version numbers slip?
<mpt> Well, they haven't yet, but you never know ;-)
<mdke> well we use entities for version numbers and codenames anyway
<mdke> so it only takes 2 seconds to change it if it slips
<mdke> for all docs
<mpt> nifty
<mpt> anyway, bedtime for me
<mdke> gnight
<LaserJock> mdke: pint?
<LaserJock> s/pint/ping
<LaserJock> mdke: did you talk to -motu about the GLUTransition page you deleted? I thought they were still using it (at least I was a little bit)
<jjesse> mmmm lunch
<jjesse> everyong already checked out for christmas?
<Burglaptop> nope
<jjesse> Burglaptop: do you know what timezone jerome is ?  he had somequestions for me and didn't want to miss him before i step out for the break
<Burglaptop> +10 I think
<Burglaptop> shall I deleted the old /talk pages that simply list subpages?
<jjesse> Burglaptop: why not seems like a lot of extra useless crap
<Burglaptop> jjesse: yep
<mdke> Burglaptop:
<mdke>  [17:19:54]  < LaserJock> mdke: did you talk to -motu about the GLUTransition page you deleted? I thought they were still
<mdke>           using it (at least I was a little bit)
<Burglaptop> mdke: yes I did
<mdke> shall we bring it back then?
<Burglaptop> I cleared it with crimsun
<Burglaptop> they are done with it
* mdke shrugs
<Burglaptop> I spoke with them before I deleted it
<mdke> if you see laserjock, maybe tell him
<Burglaptop> can do
<mdke> but he seems to want it so I am gonna restore it, it doesn't do any harm right?
<Burglaptop> nope
<mdke> stop em whinging :)
<Burglaptop> indeed
#ubuntu-doc 2005-12-29
<Burglaptop> finally got past that locales bug
<mdke> cool
<Burglaptop> this is cool
<Burglaptop> http://live.gnome.org/Gedit_2fSnippetPlugin
<mdke> how's the rehabilitation going?
<Burglaptop> well, I am almost passed out from the pain this morning, so I didnt go to work today
<mdke> shit
<Burglaptop> the pain comes when I move, so as long as I sit still I am fine
<Burglaptop> I fixed that s/Below/Under thing I did yesterday
<Burglaptop> I hate having to break URLs like this, but I think we need to, because the other wikis are not appearing soon
<Burglaptop> mdke: and did you have any thoughts on removing all the talk pages that merely list all the previous subpages?
* mdke hmms
<mdke> Burglaptop, yeah the talk pages can go. we kept them with the idea that some might be useful for making lists in the original pages, but that need has long gone away IMO
<Burglaptop> ok, they are going to die now
<mdke> it might be time to up the pace on BetterWikiDocs, you're right
<mdke> brb
<mdke> back
<Burglaptop> I am expecting dapper+1 realisitically
<mdke> depends i think
<mdke> if we push it and work out a really good solution, we can get it done quicker
<mdke> geez I can't upgrade here at my parents
<mdke> must be the fascist ISP getting in the way
<Burglaptop> why? apt uses port 80
<mdke> yeah, working now
* mdke shrugs
<mdke> perhaps it was trying to resume an old download or something and didn't like it
<Burglaptop> well, that should be all the talk pages
<mdke> heh
<Burglaptop> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ItHasBegun
<mdke> yeah i saw that once
<mdke> nuke it
<mdke> no changes since migration
<Burglaptop> not linked anywhere
<Burglaptop> dead
* mdke sings in latin
<Burglaptop> it's dead Jim
<Burglaptop> I have been watching a great deal of Star Trek with my GF recently
<mdke> with your girlfriend?
<mdke> shocking
<Burglaptop> she instigates it
* mdke shakes head sadly
<Burglaptop> I am not much of trek fan, but you know what they are women
<Burglaptop> s/are/say
<Burglaptop> about, even
<Burglaptop> and I claim to speak english!
* mdke tries to understand
<Burglaptop> don't bother. Madpilot gave up years ago
<mdke> hehe
<mdke> geez dapper is so good, I'm really tempted just to dist-upgrade my breezy partition and use it for work
<Burglaptop> X is going to break in early Jan, daniels warned yesterday
<mdke> ah, is that version 7 coming in?
<crimsun> yes
<Burglaptop> yes, and some other breakage related to meta packages, from what i understand
<mdke> ah hey crimsun 
<mdke> but will it break even just doing upgrades, or will he keep the packages back until they are fixed?
<Burglaptop> no, it is some upgrade issue
<Burglaptop> daniel did not elaborate
<mdke> ok
<mdke> i generally feel that as long as I don't dist-upgrade, I'm safe
<mdke> goddamn MenusRevisited!
<mdke> xine isn't in my menu
<Burglaptop> mdke: huh?
<mdke> Burglaptop, i installed xine, and it isn't in the menu
<Burglaptop> LaptopUsage or LaptopHowTo for a clearinghouse page for laptop usage on Ubuntu
<Burglaptop> ?
<Madpilot> hi all
<mdke> lo
<Madpilot> Burglaptop: you've started to spell "useful" as "userful", you know - I've seen it several times in your RecentChanges flood :P
<mdke> the guy is on speed, give him a break :)
<Burglaptop> no, it is because of my job
<Madpilot> He also works for a company called "Userful" - maybe it's subtle advertising
<Burglaptop> nope, when I try and spell userful, I usually spell it useful
<mdke> i still blame the speed
<mdke> or morphine or whatever
<Madpilot> mdke: I think it's actually Tylenol, but whatever ;)
<mdke> well whatever it is, it works
<mdke> judging by RecentChanges
<Burglaptop> actually it is boredom
<Burglaptop> so, LaptopUsage or LaptopHowto for the clearinghouse page for help on using laptops
<mdke> whatever you prefer
<mdke> bloody hell this sounder crap is getting on my tits
<mdke> 4 consecutive mails, on the same thread, by the same person??
<Burglaptop> Scott?
<mdke> yes this guy with all the anger
<Burglaptop> angrykeyboarder indeed
<mdke> this latest one
<mdke> i'll summarise
<Madpilot> does Sounder = Ubuntu Users, or are there still two mailing lists?
<mdke> "we should have build-essential because linux geeks are surprised not to find them. If Ubuntu made more frequent updates, I'd have no need for compiling software..."
<Burglaptop> Madpilot: there are still two
* mdke swears
<Burglaptop> mdke: more frequent updates???? 6 months is grueling enough
<mdke> what a cock
<Madpilot> OK - I'm on neither, but do sometimes check ubuntuforum's mirror of UUsers
<mdke> bshumate, you rock! nice work on the wiki
<Madpilot> that passwords page is great - and I'm going to be looking into Bastille more...
<mdke> really well written pages
* Burglaptop produces a great deal of quantity
* mdke pats
* Madpilot crowns Burglaptop "RecentChanges Floodmeister" :P
<Burglaptop> you ain't seen nothin' yet
<mdke> and who is this guy going on about ALT all the time?
<mdke> i can't understand any of his emails :(
* mdke unsubscribes
<Burglaptop> mdke: you seen highvoltage recently?
<Burglaptop> would you guys assume that if a page has had no edits recently, it likely hasn
<Burglaptop> t got any views either?'
<crimsun> depends
<Burglaptop> for docs, I can assume so
<crimsun> if the creation date of the page is pre-Hoary, I'd say that's a viable assumption
<Burglaptop> especially things that look like braindumps of problems
<Burglaptop> this still useful for us? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/doc/MoinToDocIdeas
<jsgotangco> happy holidays all!
<Kamping_Kaiser> hi jsgotangco
<jsgotangco> ho ho ho
<Madpilot> Merry Bah Humbug to everyone! ;)
<jsgotangco> wow even the -doc list is full of holiday spam
<jsgotangco> brb
<Burglaptop> do we need this either? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/XMLProcessing
<Madpilot> is there something else that needs that filename? if not, leave it...
<Madpilot> have you considered starting an actual OrphanedPages page?
<Burglaptop> nope
<Burglaptop> rob1: can we nuke FAQguide respec?
<rob1> yep
* Madpilot just ran Bastille on the Ubuntu server in his basement, hopefully I didn't break anything... cool util, though
<rob1> does anyone know what the url is to the fridge rss feed?
<Burglaptop> nope, nor is it easily availabe
<rob1> dang
<rob1> why not?
<Burglaptop> because it isn't
<Burglaptop> email fridge-devel about it
<rob1> bah
<rob1> gya
<rob1> s/gya/gay
<Burglaptop> rob1: that is not a term we like to use around Ubuntu
<Burglaptop> gay should not be used as an insult
* rob1 shrugs
<rob1> get over it Burglaptop 
<Burglaptop> rob1: no, I am quite serious
<Burglaptop> rob1: you might have missed what I said. I said I was quite serious
<rob1> haven't you got something better to do then harass me?
<Burglaptop> I am not harassing you
<Burglaptop> I find the term "gay" used as an epithet offensive
<rob1> sure, but was it that big a deal?
<crimsun> it can be, particularly with those of us who don't find gender labels very appropriate.
<Burglaptop> gay is as offensive as calling someone a nigger
<rob1> gee, when did everyone start getting all politically correct?
<Burglaptop> or a kike. It it tolerated now, just as those terms were tolerated earlier in history
<Burglaptop> it doesn't make it any better
<Burglaptop> rob1: it has nothing to do with being PC. It has to do with respect
<rob1> yeah ok Burglaptop
<rob1> like you've never used such terms before
* rob1 just shrugs and goes back to what he was doing
<Burglaptop> not recently and I have made an effort to remove them because they are disrespectful
<rob1> well good for you, no need to force your believes down my throat
<crimsun> I certainly wouldn't use them in -devel, I'll put it that way.
<crimsun> not only because there are Canonical and Ubuntu employees who would readily smack you down, but like Corey stated, it's disrespectful.
<Burglaptop> rob1: it is not my beliefs. It is the Ubuntu code of conduct
<Burglaptop> which incidentally all three of us have signed and are in a channel that is bound by it
<rob1> like I said, surely you have something better to do. whats the big deal exactly?
<crimsun> the big deal is the simple lack of respect
<rob1> of what, exactly?
<Burglaptop> rob1: I said that I found the term you used offensive
<Burglaptop> and you choose to ridcule that belief
<rob1> ok, well I apologize that you took it as being offensive, that wasn't the intent. 
<Burglaptop> thank you
<Burglaptop> and please don't use that term on any ubuntu channels again
<Burglaptop> you might get a far harsher reception
<Burglaptop> at least 2 of the Canonical employees are openly gay
<rob1> whatever, you don't tell me what to do
<Burglaptop> no, I made a request of you
<rob1> you got your apologie, what more do you want?
<Burglaptop> it is not about me rob1
<Burglaptop> seperate the messenger from the message
<rob1> get over it
<Burglaptop> rob1: one of the things that Ubuntu is well known for a welcoming and inviting community to all
<Burglaptop> people using the word "Gay" as an epipthet is not part of that
* rob1 just puts this down to a difference in cultures
<Burglaptop> and the precise reason the CoC was created
<Burglaptop> rob1: in fact there a lot of people in Canada who use it to and I hate it from them as well
<rob1> where I live, people don't get on the bandwagon about something as innocent as this
<rob1> oh well..
<Burglaptop> respect is one of those intangible things that you can lose with the smallest of things and must make the largest of efforts to gain back
<Burglaptop> hence why we must think carefully about what we say and how we might offend other people, especially in a place where people can only see your text and not your body language and tone of speech
<rob1> its not about respect, I made a momentary lapse in judgement - not something so bad as to publicly deserve the third degree
<Burglaptop> that was not the third degree
<rob1> if you had a problem with it, you should have pm'ed me instead and I would have quickly apologised. harping on in chan about something as ridiculous as this just gets you on the bad side of people
<rob1> hence, I have no time for it
<Burglaptop> I didn't mean to publicly embarrass you. I merely was pointing out something I found offensive. I am sorry if I offended you
<rob1> ok
<rob1> I'm off, I have christmas things to do
<Madpilot> ... wow, the things I miss when I'm away from the computer...
<Burglaptop> bon soir, Madpilot
<Madpilot> just finished read the backscroll :P
<Madpilot> I need to crash. Good night, Merry Christmas, and bah humbug to all - I'll be back on the 26th, probably.
<Kamping_Kaiser> night mate
<Kamping_Kaiser> see you round
<Madpilot> Burglaptop: I'm going to shut down the server until I get back, too
<Burglaptop> Madpilot: np
<Madpilot> k. Later, all
#ubuntu-doc 2005-12-30
<Burglaptop> are there any japanese speakers in the house?
* #ubuntu-doc  [freenode-info]  If you're at a conference, please contact freenode staff to make sure we've made special allowance for many users coming into our network from a single internet address ( http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#gettinghelp ). Private messages from unregistered users are currently blocked, except to network staff, services and participating registered users ( http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#privmsg )... Thanks!
<corey_> oh, fun, more half finished "build your own package" docs
<corey_> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HowtoCreateNewPackages
<corey_> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CreatePackageFromSourcePackage
<BrainDeadKK> can i ask if this wiki page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RecoveringUbuntuAfterInstallingWindows was changed to require a live cd because of the doc team? or just becase someone decided to.? because i feel it should be changed back to using the install cd
<mhz> BrainDeadKK: I really can't answer that but I do know that IMHO, recovery should be done via LiveCD
<BrainDeadKK> i think it should use install because everyone (theoretically ) has one
<BrainDeadKK> and lots of people cant download a 600mb iso on dialup to recover a system
<mhz> .oO(which reminds me, I would really like to have Ubuntu LiveCD work with an option of just terminal-mode, like Gentoo does)
<mhz> BrainDeadKK: but current Breezy install CD has almost no recovery options, or there are tools included you say?
<BrainDeadKK> mhz: you have to boot 'rescue' mode, then mount your hdd, then rung grub-install
<mhz> BrainDeadKK: i agree, though, on the fact that connection is important to many people.
<mhz> BrainDeadKK: yup, but besides that... any other 'rescue' alternatives or tools?
<BrainDeadKK> mhz: not as far as i know (but i havent checked)
<mhz> or you mean 'rescue' as in 'rescue the grub-guindowz relationship' ?
<BrainDeadKK> yes, rescue the grub boot loader
<BrainDeadKK> afaik that's all the mode is there fore
* mhz has never used guindowz with Gnu/Linux, so he can't tell
<BrainDeadKK> heh
<mhz> BrainDeadKK: hmmm, if you are sure that 'rescue for bootloader'  work fine from install cd, then maybe you should add it as an alternative in that page.
<mhz> IMHO, both methods should be explained
<BrainDeadKK> it's how i have always done it, so adding it as an alternaitive is probably a good idea
<mhz> yup
<mhz> indeed
<mhz> BrainDeadKK: but make sure the current install cd does it smoothly ;)
<BrainDeadKK> I'm going on holiday on 27th, so i don't know if i can do it/any before i go I'm afraid :( but I'll keep it on mind
<mhz> good. another task on the todo list :)
<mhz> my todo is endless :D
<BrainDeadKK> lol. i feel your pain ;)
<mhz> .oO( geee, there are so much I'd like to do!)
<BrainDeadKK> :)
<mhz> BrainDeadKK: and.. when you'd be back?
<BrainDeadKK> if i start writing the second way should i email it to the list, or just start adding it to the wiki page?
<mhz> just add it, people who are interested on changes, will get auto-notifed by email, instantly
<BrainDeadKK> ok
<BrainDeadKK> i should be packing tomorrow (I'm away untill febuary), but i will try and find time for the rescue bit
<mhz> and, if you add it as a 'comment', please do insert @SIG@ at the end of your comment so we get a timestamp with your username (wiki page, hoepfully) + timestamp
<mhz> wow!!! 1 month!!!
* mhz has not taken vacations in about 3 years
<BrainDeadKK> yeh, interstate for untill mid january, then linuxconf au. so i wont be around a lot ;)
* mhz would love to get to linuxconf.au
<BrainDeadKK> :( pity you cant make it
<mhz> afik, Yagisan, from #edubuntu will be there too
<mhz> Yagisan is expert on security issues
<BrainDeadKK> i heard ajmitch (from #ubuntu) will be there, but i cant contact him to find out
<mhz> did you try #ubuntu-devel ?
<BrainDeadKK> no, i havent asked around. it just came up
<mhz> well, I suggest there should be a huge poster with photos of 'ubunteros' who couldn't make it
* BrainDeadKK whips out install cd+laptop, and does a dummy grub install
<mhz> cool!, thx
<BrainDeadKK> np
<ealden> hey mdke
#ubuntu-doc 2005-12-31
<Mez> hmm
<Mez> anyone here?
<Packing_Kaiser> mm
<Mez> corey_, who packaged up kubuntu-docs ?
<corey_> Mez: likely Riddel
<Mez> hmm
<Mez> It's broked :D
<Burglaptop> hmm
<Burglaptop> file a bug against it and assign it to riddel with mdke cc'ed
<Mez> whats mdke's emai l?
<Burglaptop> matthew.east@gmail.com, I think
<Mez> hmm
* Mez wonders why firefox calls itself deer park in dapper
<Burglaptop> it is not 1.5 final
<Burglaptop> or maybe trademark issues
<robitaille> Hi Madpilot 
<Madpilot> hi robitaille - you survived Christmas?
<robitaille> it was great. I'm currently playing with one of my gift; a wireless router
<robitaille> the final frontier:  use the laptop in the living room :)
<Madpilot> cool toy - going to let the neighbours borrow bandwidth? :P
<Madpilot> how early did the kids wake up to see what Santa had brought?
<robitaille> probably not for now.  My neighbours seems to be wiresll-challenged.
<robitaille> Kids were up at 7am...they were under strict order to wait until 7am
<Madpilot> and they actually lasted until 7am? good for them ;)
* Burglaptop woke up at noon
<Madpilot> Burglaptop: have you run out of wiki pages to molest? There's nothing from you in RecentChanges for at least an hour! :P
* robitaille dreams of the day he will be able to sleep in until 8am like in the good old days
<Burglaptop> Madpilot: nah, been watching Star Trek
<Burglaptop> and told by C that I couldn't use my computer for at least an hour
<Burglaptop> Madpilot: we should recommend php5 if people use breezy, because it is in main
<Madpilot> I know, but I don't run it here and haven't gotten around to re-writing the wiki...
<Burglaptop> Madpilot: ah, ok
<Burglaptop> why not just mentino that 5 is supported and 4 isn't
<Madpilot> Burgwork: CMSms doesn't run on PHP 5 currently...
<Burglaptop> holy crap, I just got wine to just work
<Burglaptop> it installed and everything
<Madpilot> what're you wining for?
<Burglaptop> so if you want to play http://www.windowsgames.co.uk/slay.html
<Burglaptop> just grab the debian wine debs
<Packing_Kaiser> mhz_zZzZ: i sent that grub stuff to the list.
<Burglaptop> I wonder, if a game works perfectly in wine and we can get redistribution rights, can we package it have it in multiverse, with a dep on wine?
<Madpilot> Burglaptop: the very thought would probably give the old-guard *nix types mass heart failure! :P
<Packing_Kaiser> lol
<Packing_Kaiser> problem is repeatable working
<Packing_Kaiser> *making it work repeatedly
<Burglaptop> wine is pretty stable for some things now
<Burglaptop> Madpilot: remember critical mass, that old windows game?
<Packing_Kaiser> bbl
<Madpilot> Burglaptop: not offhand...
<Burglaptop> http://www.windowsgames.co.uk/critical.html
<Madpilot> yeah, just got reminded by google :P
<Madpilot> what about it?
<Burglaptop> wine should be able to run it
<Madpilot> hehe
<Madpilot> cool
<Burglaptop> I have run two of the other games on that page, slay and atlantis
<Burglaptop> in fact, I am running them right now
<Burglaptop> but you prolbably need the debian wine packags
<Madpilot> which Debian versions, and where from
<Madpilot> ?
<Burglaptop> download this http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian/pool/main/w/wine/libwine_0.9-1_i386.deb
<Burglaptop> and this http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian/pool/main/w/wine/wine_0.9-1_i386.deb
<Burglaptop> install libwine and then wine
<Burglaptop> and then run "wine setup.exe"
<Madpilot> in the directory I've stashed the Windows files in, I assume?
<Burglaptop> yes
<Burglaptop> I just downloaded them to my home dir
<Madpilot> hmm... taking notes, I'll do it tomorrow - messing with wine when I need sleep isn't too wise...
<Burglaptop> actually, it is very very simple
<Burglaptop> install wine, the then run the setup program
<Burglaptop> it should just work
<Burglaptop> grr, now it is borked
<Burglaptop> anyway, night all
<Madpilot> need sleep - later, everyone
<jsgotangco> cheers
#ubuntu-doc 2006-01-01
* Burglaptop wonders what to do with IdeaPool
<jsgotangco> hey Burglaptop 
<mdke> that's a pretty active page i think
<mdke> hello jerome
<jsgotangco> hey mdke 
<jsgotangco> happy holidays! (if not too late)
<mdke> same to you :)
<jsgotangco> i did some doc updates but havent uploaded yet
<mdke> cool, why not upload?
<jsgotangco> i forgot my laptop
<mdke> ah
<mdke> which docs?
<jsgotangco> kubuntu and server
<mdke> oh wow
<Burglaptop> mdke: it is pretty active, but a lot of the informatin is already known
<mdke> Burglaptop, known or fixed?
<Burglaptop> known, with LP specs to talk about each issue
<jsgotangco> but theres no activity in svn at all, so i'll just upload when i get my laptop tommorow at my in laws
<mdke> i guess you can note that, if you wish
<mdke> jsgotangco, sounds good
<Burglaptop> ugh, I will just leave it for now
<Burglaptop> jsgotangco: do you have any objections if i nuke the various Koffice pages that have no useful help content on them?
<jsgotangco> who uses KOffice anyways
<Burglaptop> right, they shall die
<Burglaptop> spanish? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SmartLinkModemDriverHowto?highlight=%28CategoryCleanup%29
<Burglaptop> mdke: ^
<mdke> why would you delete spanish pages?
<jsgotangco> yeah
<mdke> my spanish is very poor, but the page looks good to me
<Burglaptop> I don't want to delete it
<Burglaptop> I want to move it to -ES or something similar
<mdke> my spanish isn't good enough to improve it
<mdke> will you move all the spanish docs?
<Burglaptop> no, just that one because it is an english namespace
<mdke> the others seem to have "COMO" after them
<mdke> i guess you could add that
<mdke> ubuntu-es.org has a lot of documentation on there
<mdke> you could ask them to migrate it i guess
<mdke> gah, where is the mp3 help on the wiki??
<Madpilot> mdke: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RestrictedFormats
<mdke> Madpilot, nope
<mdke> at least, I don't see it
<Madpilot> that's the only mp3 page I know of...
<Madpilot> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RestrictedFormats#head-98f0945855102afe97a542ae07168f3ddcc61124
<mdke> ah ok, no separate section
<mdke> i found this tho, which is what I was looking for: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CDRipping
<Madpilot> no, it's lumped in with the rest of the non-free stuff
<mdke> i think mp3 needs an entry in the TOC on RestrictedFormats, that was too hard to find :(
<mdke> especially since the page "mp3" links there
<mdke> links/redirects*
<Madpilot> you want to do it, or should I?
<mdke> i'll do it, sure
<mdke> man that TOC is long and ugly :)
<mdke> prime candidate for subpages :)
* rob1 looks in
<mdke> heya rob1 
<rob1> hi mdke 
<mdke> good christmas?
<rob1> yeah, still tired
<rob1> how about yourself?
<mdke> good thanks
<jsgotangco> i slept all day myself yesterday
* jsgotangco is just looking around 43things, 43places and 43people
<mdke> hmm, the FAQ resources suck quite a lot
<Burglaptop> mdke: yes, they do
<Burglaptop> mdke: I almost wonder if we should redirect '
<Burglaptop> FAQ to UserDoc
<Burglaptop> what does everybody think of having all WindowsPrograms as a subpage of WindowsPrograms?
<Madpilot> huh? all who as a subpage of what?
<Burglaptop> move things like WorldofWarcraft to under WindowsPrograms
<Madpilot> why?
<Madpilot> we know they're windows apps, but wine & linux are the point, not Windows, right?
<Burglaptop> put them under Wine then?
<Madpilot> why move them at all?
<Burglaptop> because they all require Wine or Cedega
<jsgotangco> Burglaptop, ping?
<Madpilot> he was here about half an hour ago, jsgotangco
<jsgotangco> ahhh
<Burglaptop> jsgotangco: yep?
<jsgotangco> heh he's still online im pretty sure, wiki updates are still happening
<jsgotangco> see?
<jsgotangco> Burglaptop, do you know Mark Johnson, Debian upstream
<Burglaptop> jsgotangco: for which package?
<jsgotangco> Docbook
<jsgotangco> he sent email to Jane a few weeks ago inquiring about doc work, but he hinted at compensation
<jsgotangco> i told jane we're volunteers
<jsgotangco> :)
<Burglaptop> nope, never heard of him
<jsgotangco> so jane told mark to contact us
<jsgotangco> (Janew)
<jsgotangco> well anyways, i invited him over he could probably help out on the technical aspects (that we're not very familiar with)
<jsgotangco> i told him not to expect much, we're mostly writers not xml hackers anyways
<jsgotangco> (fyi guys)
<Burglaptop> jsgotangco: did you have any thoughts about moving Windows stuff under Wine?
<jsgotangco> hmmm
<jsgotangco> so that you can save the namespace?
<Burglaptop> yes, and to clearly identify them
<jsgotangco> seems ok but not all windows stuff are wine related
<Burglaptop> whatever, I will leave them for now
<Burglaptop> jsgotangco: can you try moving WorldofWarcraftHowto to WorldofWarcraft ?
<jsgotangco> hold on
<jsgotangco> why not just rename the page?
<Burglaptop> I did, it fails
<jsgotangco> well i created a new page
<jsgotangco> purge the Howto?
<Burglaptop> hmm?
<jsgotangco> purge WorldofWarcraftHowto ?
<Burglaptop> how do I do that?
<jsgotangco> ummm
<jsgotangco> More Actions - delete page ?
<Burglaptop> I created and deleted WorldofWarcraft to try and clear that
<Burglaptop> I suspect that it is a bug in Moin
<jsgotangco> hmm
<Burglaptop> a bloody hell, it has already been moved
<jsgotangco> yay we still have pitti's christmas gift on locales and apt dumbness
<Burglaptop> jsgotangco: there is a workaround
<jsgotangco> how?
<Burglaptop> remove locales
<jsgotangco> the deb won't install
<jsgotangco> hmm?
<Burglaptop> reinstall the old 2.3.6 one
<Burglaptop> upgrade to the 2.3.7 version
<Burglaptop> then reinstall your locales
<Burglaptop> that is what pitti was trying to say in the email
<jsgotangco> how crackful is that?
<Burglaptop> not
<jsgotangco> ahh
<Burglaptop> well, the wine stuff is pretty well in hand now
<Burglaptop> well, that is first time I have blogged about doc work in ages
<jsgotangco> you blogged about the wiki tsunami you caused this weekend?
<Burglaptop> yep
<Burglaptop> jsgotangco: what do you think about redirecting FAQ to UserDocumentation
<jsgotangco> hmmm
<jsgotangco> FAQ is hardly formal documentation
<Burglaptop> but the information in it is very outdated
* jsgotangco wished he had privs updating the website
<Burglaptop> FAQ has now been moved on to the website
<Burglaptop> s/website/wii
<Burglaptop> wiki, even
<jsgotangco> most of it are still in zope methinks
<Burglaptop> not the faq
<Burglaptop> some of us should have edit privs on the website
<jsgotangco> i have edit privs on art.ubuntu.com but its hardly usable at the moment
<jsgotangco> upading the submitted artwork is cumbersome for starters
<jsgotangco> bloody hell kubuntu flight 2 networking is borked
<Burglaptop> kde is pretty borked right now
<jsgotangco> *sigh*
<crimsun> how is it borked?
<Burglaptop> it is kde *grin*
* jsgotangco kicks Burglaptop 
<Burglaptop> I understand there are some migration issues with recent changes
<Burglaptop> gstreamer, etc.
<jsgotangco> i like katapult though
<jsgotangco> Burglaptop, i remove locales?
<Burglaptop> jsgotangco: yes
<jsgotangco> specifically?
<Burglaptop> apt-get remove locales
<jsgotangco> and next i install?
<Burglaptop> install the old version of locales off the flight 2 cd
<Burglaptop> then upgrade the locales package
<Burglaptop> then use the language selector gui to reinstall the language packs
<Burglaptop> and use it to set you default locale
<jsgotangco> hmm so this is an apt issue right? not locales specifically
<Burglaptop> there might be a bug in the locales package as well
<jsgotangco> Burglaptop, ping?
<Burglaptop> jsgotangco: pong
<jsgotangco> have you tried http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/packagingguide/C/ch02.html
<Burglaptop> nope
<Burglaptop> do you think this wording a little strong? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FirefoxNewVersion
<Burglaptop> the top note
<jsgotangco> heh if it breaks stuff why install it in the first place
<Burglaptop> some will demand the latest crack
<Madpilot> ...because it's new and shiny!
<jsgotangco> bah
<robitaille> the top note is a bit strong, but that wiki page does some intrusive stuff to someone  setup...
<jsgotangco> its like buying the first batch of broken xbox units
<Burglaptop> anyway, I am rebooting for a bootchart
<Burglaptop> brb
<Burglaptop> hmm, 42 secs
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jsgotangco> average
<jsgotangco> mine is similar
<Burglaptop> wonder if a 686 kernel would shave any tiome off
<Belutz> jdub, are you there?
<jsgotangco> hey Belutz 
<Belutz> hi jsgotangco :D
<Belutz> how are you?
<jsgotangco> not bad what's up
<Belutz> i'm still in sydney
<Belutz> i'm coming home tommorow
<jsgotangco> oh did you meet jdub at least?
<Belutz> no :(
<Belutz> i don't bring my laptop
<jsgotangco> why did you spend christmas in sydney?
<Belutz> because i didn't plan to stay this long
<Belutz> because my friend's parents ask me to extend my stay in sydney
<robitaille> Belutz,   jdub has been irc idle for the last 92 hours.
<robitaille> I suspect he is not around
<Belutz> i see
<jsgotangco> why?
<Belutz> this is my last day in sydney, i thought i could meet him
<Belutz> why? hmm no reason :D
<jsgotangco> i have his number but i don't like giving out numbers he might not like it even
<Belutz> jsgotangco: http://belutz.blogspot.com
<jsgotangco> he's probably out of town as well
<Belutz> jsgotangco, that's ok :)
<jsgotangco> hmm lifeless is in sydney i think
<jsgotangco> or maybe not
<Belutz> i like sydney...
<Belutz> :D
<jsgotangco> i didnt know you studied at wollongong
<Belutz> jsgotangco, i studied in jakarta, but it's an overseas programme
<jsgotangco> ahh right
<jsgotangco> but you still have a degree from UoW right?
<Belutz> yup
<jsgotangco> maybe i should consider a homestudy for grad school
<Belutz> i'm an alumni from UoW
<Belutz> jsgotangco, yeah, maybe i'm going to apply for some scholarship
<jsgotangco> hmm i'll shop around i'm going back to brisbane in 2 weeks after the new year
<Belutz> waaa... you're going to brisbane?
<jsgotangco> it should have been a few weeks ago but i decided to move it next year
<Belutz> i see
<Belutz> for work?
<jsgotangco> yep
* jsgotangco can't afford to travel for leisure :P
<Belutz> :D
<mdke> Burgwork, maybe ask about the warning to the firefox page on the forum thread, i can't see anyone complaining about that problem there
<Burgwork> mdke, but people who bork their systems may not make it tothe forums
<Burgwork> holy crap, that was a commit I just saw
<Burgwork> hmm
<Burgwork> http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_id=9155633&forum_id=43270
<mdke> Burgwork, sure, i still think it's a good idea to ask the original author via that thread
<mdke> also, I don't think people have borked their systems beyond going to the forum, because that thread has 31 pages of feedback
<Burgwork> mdke, does the warning harm people
<Burgwork> ?
<mdke> Burgwork, i don't know, i haven't tried the guide. I'm just suggesting you ask the author about it, it's just common courtesy
<mdke> if the forum thread shows a lot of satisfied customers, it would be nice to figure out when the problem is caused, and when it isn't
<Burgwork> mdke, most of those users probably don't use some of those programs. But breaking help I consider fairly major
<Burgwork> mdke, the problem is caused all the time, regardless
<Burgwork> any time you upgrade FF, you must upgrade those apps or they will cease to work, period
<mdke> it is a major problem if true, but I find it hard to understand why nothing appears on that thread
<mdke> firefox is not upgraded anyhow, the old version is left intact iirc
<Burgwork> because most of the forums people don't use those apps
<mdke> ok, if you're not going to post, i'm happy to do it
<Burgwork> sure, I am busy at work currently
<mdke> i consider it simple courtesy
<mdke> some info
<mdke> where did you hear about the breakage?
<mdke> -users?
<Burgwork> hmm, rethinking this
* mdke doesn't press "Submit Reply"
<Burgwork> I think I might be wrong, as much as it pains me to admit it
<mdke> you haven't seen the breakage?
<Burgwork> I think to change the note at the top
<Burgwork> it should say "As long as you don
<Burgwork> t remove  the existing copy of Firefox, ....
<mdke> o.o
<mdke> the guide doesn't say to remove it, afaics
<Burgwork> no it doesn't, but people might think to do that anyway, because they "don
<Burgwork> t need it"
<Burgwork> grr, bloody enter key
<mdke> a note about that would be fine yeah
<Burgwork> I shall edit it
<Burgwork> i will test that on a fresh breezy install sometime this week
<mdke> good idea
<mdke> hello BlackDesert 
<mdke> :)
<BlackDesert> hi everybody
<BlackDesert> ;-)
<Burgwork> salut BlackDesert 
<Burgwork> mdke, I like your wording better
<mdke> ;)
<mdke> can we remove the links to the FAQs on UserDocumentation?
<mdke> they suck balls
<Burgwork> yep
<Burgwork> I had though we should redirect FAQ to UserDocumentation
* Burgwork almost wrote Userful
<mdke> we really need to take anything useful from the faqs and integrate em with the rest of the wiki
<mdke> I'll add that to WikiToDo
<Burgwork> they are mostly done. I will do some of that today
<mdke> rocking
<mdke> blimey
<mdke> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SoftwareManagement looks rather like a new attempt at UserDocumentation ;)
<Burgwork> I really should tackle the big pages like that
<mdke> i'm gonna wreak havoc on it
<Burgwork> mdke, can some of us get edit rights to http://www.ubuntulinux.org/support/documentation/faq/faqfolder_view
<mdke> not that I know of
<Burgwork> ugh
<mdke> the new website will be along soon I think
<Burgwork> that badly needs updating
<mdke> so that won't be a problem
<mdke> i filed a bug about that yesterday tho, it really sucks
<Burgwork> mdke, I was thinking about creating a category called  NeedsExpansion
<Burgwork> pages that don't completely explain the topic
<Burgwork> as opposed to pages that are badly written
<mdke> hmm not sure
<mdke> maybe simple is best
<mdke> Burgwork, have we got a comprehensive list of games anywhere?
<mdke> there is one on that SoftwareManagement page which I'm about to remove
<Burgwork> mdke, there is no Games page
<Burgwork> let me create one
<Burgwork> I think FAQ is ready to be redirected UserDocumentatin
<mdke> ok
<Burgwork> do you think I should just do it or ask for futher input?
<mdke> sounds fine
<mdke> I'll do the Games page
<Burgwork> redirection done
<Burgwork> I can add things about Wine/Cedega to the games page later
<mdke> fine
<mdke> it's at "Games"
<Burgwork> why don't we remove the main games from the UserDocumentation page and just have a link to the Games page on UserDocumentation
<mdke> that's what I did
<Burgwork> great minds think alike
<Burgwork> hadn't seen the diffyet
<mdke> :)
<Burgwork> I think the wiki is really starting to come together as a good resource
<mdke> me too
<crimsun> it's certainly becoming more usable from a new user's perspective, thanks to everyone's work
<mdke> it's high maintenance though
<mdke> at the moment
<crimsun> ultimately I'd love to see wiki integration into the distro
<Burgwork> documentation is always high maintenacne
<Burgwork> crimsun, where  that will come is through LP-integration
<crimsun> Burgwork: yep
<Burgwork> and LP-landing pages
<mdke> Burgwork, well... a lot of the maintenance on the wiki is not based on the documentation
<mdke> look at the time you've spent on those specs
<Burgwork> mdke, yes, indeed
<Burgwork> I hate that LP drives into our wiki
<Burgwork> for people and specs
<mdke> i don't
<Burgwork> both of those should be exclusively on LP
<mdke> we just need another wiki
<mdke> ah, yeah ultimately
<Burgwork> and yes, we also need another wiki
<Burgwork> one that allows "publishing" of a sort
<mdke> homepages and specs will ultimately be on LP, I'm sure
<Burgwork> I am not so certain about the specs
<Burgwork> the LP guys didn't see my POV when I was at UBZ
<Burgwork> as a first step, we need to get off the ubuntu wiki onto our own
<Burgwork> then we can start talking better wiki stuff
<Burgwork> is the document storage facility down?
<mdke> not sure, it goes down for a short period each day i believe
<Burgwork> it was down yesterday for a quite sometime, and I can't get it now
<mdke> try #gwos
<Burgwork> negatory
<mdke> i don't know that word
<Burgwork> doesn't exist
<mdke> oh, strange
<mdke> ah
<mdke> #ubuntu-gwos
<Burgwork> if we migrate to our own wiki, should we migrate to Mediawiki at the same time?
<Burgwork> having the same markup as the biggest wikis in the world will probably help us get contributers
<mdke> is that a rhetorical question?
<Burgwork> no
<mdke> you know my answer ;)
<mdke> different Ubuntu wikis with different markup would be so bad
<mdke> not to mention different authserver hacks
<Burgwork> yes, the authserv stuff is a breakign point
<Burgwork> but LP is giong to have a gneeric api for that
<Burgwork> because they are working to integrate with many different systems
<Burgwork> dammit, I want to blog again but nobody has blogged
<mdke> is that a problem?
<Burgwork> yes, a self imposed rule, so it doesn't become Planet Corey
<mdke> ah
<mdke> i don't think that will happen ;)
<Burgwork> with the amount of blogging I have been doign recently
<Burgwork> ugh, forgot this page existed https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HowTos
<Burgwork> and now we have someone adding to it
<mdke> yeah henrik made it when porting the howtos from the website
<Burgwork> check out RecentChanges
<mdke> i see it
<Burgwork> I have emailed that person and asked them to join us here
<mdke> cool
<Burgwork> we should probably merge that page into UserDoc as well
<mdke> agreed
<Burgwork> once he replys I will do that
* Burgwork is about to fall asleep at his deak
<Burgwork> desk, even
<mdke> know that feeling
<Burgwork> I didn't get to sleep until 2am this morning
<Burgwork> ugh, moin needs a better method of uploads and attachments
<Burgwork> per page is very very primitive
* mdke pushes Burgwork towards #moin
<Burgwork> http://labix.org/irss
<Burgwork> http://moinmoin.wikiwikiweb.de/SinglePageSlideShow
<Burgwork> that second could be very cool for us
<Burgwork> ok, so moin cannot allow users to edit one page and everybody to edit a talk page
<Burgwork> which mediawiki can do, with a single switch
<Burgwork> you can do it in moin, but you must configure on a page by page basis
* mdke pushes Burgwork towards #moin
<mdke> although I'm not sure about such a feature
<mdke> forums do that
<Burgwork> that i what I got from #moin
<mdke> what is?
<Burgwork> the information about ACLs
<Burgwork> which in my mind is a key part of a better wiki doc system
<mdke> i'm not sure
<mdke> i don't think we should shie away from the idea that wiki docs can be collaborative
* mdke points at wikipedia
<Burgwork> yes, they can be collaborative
<Burgwork> published help should only need typos being changed and minor things
<Burgwork> web published I mean
<Burgwork> my proposal involves having the in progress stuff as very much collobarative, exactly as today
<Burgwork> but the published  stuff would be pushed onto a different wiki with slight different rules
<mdke> why?
<Burgwork> because the end user knows they are getting high qulality docs when they go to help.u.c.
<mdke> the end user knows they are getting high quality information when they go to wikipedia.org
<Burgwork> so all the end user sees in help.u.c unless they wish to help us
<mdke> i'm not really convinced that the extra confusion that having more than one help wiki would put on the user is worth any possible benefit
<Burgwork> but help is tied to a specific release
<Burgwork> and after that release happens, the docs assoicated can be slushy frozen, ala the current svn stuff
<Burgwork> we don't actually need a wiki
<mdke> gtg now
<Burgwork> cya
* Burgwork is bored, bored, bored
#ubuntu-doc 2006-12-25
<mdke_> merry christmas everyone
<nixternal> merry christmas to you too mdke_
<towsonu2003> hi
<towsonu2003> I need some help
<towsonu2003> trying to learn this svn thing
<towsonu2003> anyone online?
<linuxphotogeek> hi
<towsonu2003> a second... lost again...
<linuxphotogeek> join the crowd
<towsonu2003> lol
<towsonu2003> ok in the wiki (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Repository) it says to edit "nano ~/ubuntu-doc/ubuntu/desktopguide/C/getting-started.xml"
<towsonu2003> but I don't have that dir
<towsonu2003> I dont have desktopguide even thoug I did the whole svn checkout thing...
<towsonu2003> what am I missing?
<linuxphotogeek> did you 'Change to your home directory.' then 'svn checkout https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/trunk ubuntu-doc'
<towsonu2003> yep
<towsonu2003> here is the output of ls ubuntu-doc/ubuntu:
<towsonu2003> browser-startpage  C  images  libs  Makefile  menus  omf  README  sample  unused  yelptest
<linuxphotogeek> oh du! I see it know look in ~/ubuntu-doc/ubuntu/C/
<linuxphotogeek> There is no 'desktop guide'
<linuxphotogeek> but you'll see the directory structure
<linuxphotogeek> pick a directory/file and have at it
<towsonu2003> hmm, okay
<towsonu2003> then how would I fix serverguide via this bug: https://launchpad.net/products/ubuntu-doc/+bug/54937 ?
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 54937 in ubuntu-doc "dhcp-server installation points out package in universe " [Medium,Confirmed] 
<linuxphotogeek> to see the file enter on the command line yelp 'office.xml' as example
<linuxphotogeek> You've been caught like me
<linuxphotogeek> looking at a bug that is no longer a bug because the document is gone.
<linuxphotogeek> I think the server stuff is being cut from Feisty Desktop documentation
<linuxphotogeek> At least for now
<towsonu2003> that's weird
<linuxphotogeek> Maybe one of the Matthews will chime in?
<towsonu2003> I'll ask thru the mailing list then, I think they're asleep :)
<linuxphotogeek> There has been a lot of movement on the desktop documentation structure, and I recently got caught sleeping
<linuxphotogeek> I sort of wish there was a published road map. I guess the svn is just that - a road map.
<linuxphotogeek> But it has changed a lot lately.
<linuxphotogeek>       /msg nickserv link linuxphotogeek bartho
<towsonu2003> I agree... more documentation seems to be what is needed (even with that much documentation)
<linuxphotogeek> register bartholane
<towsonu2003> linuxphotogeek, be careful, you're gonna end up sending us a password :)
<linuxphotogeek> too late
<linuxphotogeek> now I'm trying to change it
<towsonu2003> ouch
<towsonu2003> make sure you change that whereever you use it. I think they log this stuff and publish on the web...
<towsonu2003> ok sent the email.
<nixternal> having fun?
<linuxphotogeek> So far!
<linuxphotogeek> Getting ready for christmas eve diner
<linuxphotogeek> pineapple fried rice
<nixternal> where are you at linuxphotogeek ?
<linuxphotogeek> My laptop died an hour ago so I've had to switch to Mary's PC
<linuxphotogeek> Idaho
<nixternal> idapimp
<nixternal> ;p
<linuxphotogeek> Pacific time -- the best time
<nixternal> nope, Central is :)
<nixternal> CST, otherwise know to us as Chicago Standard Time
<Ubugtu> New bug: #76372 in ubuntu-doc "clean up BinaryDriverHowto/ATI" [Undecided,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/76372
<nixternal> heh, i love when people do bugs for the wiki instead of just fixing it when they know how to
<robotgeek> heh
<robotgeek> nixternal: as a former Texan, I take offense to that. CST!
<nixternal> hehe
<robotgeek> Cowboys Standard Time, lol
<nixternal> ROMO!
<robotgeek> good game tomorrow
<nixternal> most definitely
<nixternal> good games all day long today
<robotgeek> i was pretty busy today, so that was out
<robotgeek> i just got back in
<nixternal> i have been messing around all day
<nixternal> wrote the KSig documentation, some KOffice documentation, and closed a few bugs at bugs.kde.org
<nixternal> staying away from all of the kids :)
<robotgeek> hmm, colts lost. surprising
<nixternal> ya, to houston of all teams
<robotgeek> are they out of the playoffs
<nixternal> the colts?
<robotgeek> yeah
<nixternal> colts clinched a couple of weeks ago
<robotgeek> hmm, they did win last week i guess
<robotgeek> anyways, gotta eat food now. later
<robotgeek> have a merry christmas, in case i dont see you all tommorow
<nixternal> merry christmas to you as well!
<Burgundavia> poningru: did you create those gifs?
<poningru> Burgundavia: the gifs?
<Burgundavia> poningru: on the postfix sit
<Burgundavia> wiki page, rather
* poningru tries to figure that out
<Burgundavia> poningru: oh, wait, wrong person
<poningru> I kinda...
<poningru> yeah
<poningru> ...
<towsonu2003> :p
<towsonu2003> hmm, I attached some patches to a couple of bugs (very minor stuff). should I still email the list with bug links? I expect not, but...
<towsonu2003> I assume not (have to leave). if yes, drop a note in one of those bugs pls :) here's one: https://bugs.launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-docs/+bug/48846
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 48846 in ubuntu-docs "Crtl+Alt+Backspace doesn't restart GNOME [desktopguide - config-system] " [Low,Confirmed] 
* towsonu2003 hugs Ubugtu 
* Ubugtu gives towsonu2003 a big hug
<towsonu2003> lol
<froud> seasons greetings
<Burgundavia> hey froud
<froud> hey Burgundavia
<froud> How's life
<Burgundavia> not bad
<Burgundavia> still working at Userful
<froud> was it a good year for you
<Burgundavia> pretty good
<froud> kewl and the lady, how's she?
<Burgundavia> ah, we broke up at the end of last year
<Burgundavia> but I have a new one, met in the last little while
<froud> Oh dear, so no wedding bels then
<Burgundavia> nope
<Burgundavia> and you
<Burgundavia> ?
<froud> kewl year
<froud> busy as hell though
<froud> not complaining
<froud> but would be nice to do some of my own stuff
<froud> finally left SuSE
<Burgundavia> ah
<Burgundavia> you on Ubuntu then?
<froud> in last 2 days setup Ubuntu server firewall/router, Ubuntu file server with Samba and reinstalled by desktop with Kubuntu
<Burgundavia> ah
<froud> yip the ms novell story clinched it for me
<Burgundavia> heh
<froud> you have any Samba knowledge?
<Burgundavia> not really
<froud> darn
<Burgundavia> I work in an all Linux shop, thankfully
<froud> I can get win2k boxes to join the Samba domain, but kubuntu box won't join
<Burgundavia> ah
<Burgundavia> samba or AD domain?
<froud> Samba
<froud> net rpc join -D ENBAYA -U administrator
<froud> return
<froud> Unable to find a suitable server
<Burgundavia> ah
<Burgundavia> no idea
<froud> But Win2K box works
<froud> :-) go figure
<froud> yes smbclient -L ip.address.of.samba -U%
<froud> shows the domain
<froud> So what's new round here
<Burgundavia> not much
<Burgundavia> kicked back into work after edgy's silence
<froud> still on dapper here
<Burgundavia> office is on dapper, home is feisty
<froud> is it worth the upgrade
<Burgundavia> I would wait until feisty or +1
<froud> nother subject, perhaps you know of a groupware solution that works well
<froud> I been looking at a few, but nothing stands out
<Burgundavia> what are your specific needs?
<froud> Web-based access + integration with Kontact and Outlook
<froud> I see many don't mention install on ubuntu
<Burgundavia> right
<Burgundavia> need calendar, etc?
<froud> So able to install on ubuntu
<froud> yes usual pim
<Burgundavia> right
<Burgundavia> I have heard good things about kolab
<froud> kolab 2
<Burgundavia> and openxchange, but I have also heard it is a total beast to install
<froud> connectors for outlook are proprietry
<Burgundavia> ah
<froud> but will pay for them if must :-)
<froud> I see co.za company has developed some
<towsonu2003> next time I buy an ATI card, kick me...
<towsonu2003> after struggling with both BinaryDriverHowto/ATI and BinaryDriverHowto, I don't want to see the characters a, t, and i for a while... grr
* towsonu2003 isn't done ranting and venting...
* towsonu2003 slaps Ubugtu 
<towsonu2003> yay
* towsonu2003 hugs Ubugtu 
* Ubugtu humps towsonu2003
<towsonu2003> oy
<froud> Burgundavia: Yah! Integrated Kubuntu with Samba Domain :-)
<Burgundavia> cool
* froud streams Radio Paradise with Amarok
<LaserJock> nixternal: you about?
<nixternal> LaserJock: ya
<nixternal> on the phone with my daughter
<LaserJock> nixternal: then I'll leave you alone
<nixternal> give me a cuople of minutes
<LaserJock> nixternal: well, I didn't have anyting in particular to say. Just wanted to say thanks for the fix and Merry Christmas <><
<nixternal> hehe
<nixternal> no problem!
<nixternal> Merry Christmas to you as well <><
<nixternal> hope you and the family are well
<LaserJock> half of them seem sick but otherwise ok :-)
#ubuntu-doc 2006-12-26
<matt____> whoa, bug frenzy
<mdke_> great time for Launchpad to break
* mdke_ decides he is the king of bug spam, and is not going to have this new guy getting away with all the spam
<nixternal> http://www.englishbreakfastnetwork.org/sanitizer/?component=kde-3.5
<nixternal> i love this. it goes through and reports on documentation and lets you knwo where the errors are and how to go about fixing them. something like this would be great to inforce uniformity
* mdke_ hellos
<Madpilot> hi mdke_ - survive Christmas OK?
<mdke_> Madpilot: yeah, yourself?
<Madpilot> mdke, too much food, too much drink, too many relatives - the usual, but it was good
<mdke_> yeah, same
<mdke_> too much bugmail too :)
<nixternal> mdke_: you ever run across the KDE English Breakfast Network?  http://www.englishbreakfastnetwork.org/sanitizer/?component=kde-3.5
<mdke_> nixternal: no, although I haven't yet clicked, I think I'm probably glad that I haven't...
<mdke_> *click*
<nixternal> hehe
<nixternal> it is a sanitizer that goes through the repos and checks documents and marks errors and what not. this is used to conform to standards and create uniformity
<nixternal> it is pretty kool :)
<mdke_> have you tried it on ours?
<nixternal> not yet i haven't. don't know if it is specific to kde styles or not..i will check that out here in a few
<nixternal> I'm reading through the mailing list about it now
* mdke_ nods
<nixternal> http://www.englishbreakfastnetwork.org/sanitizer/check.py?uri=https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/trunk/kubuntu/C/games/games.xml
<nixternal> doesn't work to well outside of kde docs
<nixternal> it's good to know that the kde docs that i have written though don't contain any errors :)
#ubuntu-doc 2006-12-27
<tonyyarusso> So, anyone know about actually setting up a wiki?  As in, on your own server?
<towsonu2003> tonyyarusso, try asking at #ubuntu and / or #ubuntuforums
<tonyyarusso> towsonu2003: Yeah, probably will.  Was going on the offchance there was someone around atm that helped set up ours ;)
<towsonu2003> :)
<XiXaQ> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/RestrictedFormats has been transferred to help.ubuntu.com. In the process, it seems, information on quicktime has been left out. Is that intentionally, or...?
<linuxphotogeek> nixternal: Thanks for the entity help
* mdke_ his
<mdke_> or perhaps hi's
<linuxphotogeek> hi
<linuxphotogeek> Should I go ahead and add f-spot to trunk/ubuntu/libs/gnome-menus.ent
<mdke_> linuxphotogeek: sure, but you need to make a file for it to point to. is it clear how it works?
<linuxphotogeek> mdke_: reviewing the file structure now
<mdke_> fine, ask if you need any help
<linuxphotogeek> mdke_: I'll follow trunk/ubuntu/menus/C/gimp.xml as an example
<mdke_> great
<linuxphotogeek> I get 8 "(yelp:18467): Yelp-WARNING **: Found a non-specified Ubuntu guide" when running a file I'm editing
<mdke_> that's fine
<linuxphotogeek> Good I was worried
<linuxphotogeek> mdke_: I made the change and it shows up in svn diff but not the new file (f-spot.xml). Should I just send it along with the patch?
<mdke_> linuxphotogeek: do "svn add filename" to add something to version control
<mdke_> then do the diff
<linuxphotogeek> mdke_: patch on its way
<mdke_> linuxphotogeek: great. I'll do it now
* mdke_ slaps nixternal 
<nixternal> ;p
<nixternal> i totally forgot about menus
<mdke_> those crazy entities of yours
<mdke_> you can't be bothered to type <application>?
<mdke_> lazy...
<nixternal> no ;p
<nixternal> hehe
<nixternal> ya, all of those entities made kate upset when when validating xml
<linuxphotogeek> mdke_: thanks for the upstream linking tip.
<mdke_> np
<linuxphotogeek> Headed home from work.... bye
<mdke_> cya!
#ubuntu-doc 2006-12-28
* mdke_ goes to sleep
<nixternal> g'nite
<mdke> hello
<nixternal> hello
<bdmurray> hello?
<bdmurray> I am wondering where the installation documentation comes from in the svn tree.  I didn't find it right away.
<bdmurray> For example: http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/install/i386/ch06s01.html
<nixternal> looks to have been removed, or possibly merged with the trunk/ubuntu/unused/switching/C/installing.xml
<bdmurray> Will it, the installation documentation, be rewritten for Fiesty?
<Burgwork> if somebody steps up to the plate, yes
<mdke> bdmurray: it's maintained by the Canonical employee responsible for the installer
<mdke> or rather, the proper installation documentation is, anything in our tree is simply leftovers from an unmaintained project
<mdke> ah yeah, the one you've found is the proper installation documentation
<mdke> bdmurray: so yeah, it will be updated for Feisty by him. Note that it applies to the "alternative installation cd" rather than the "desktop cd"
* nixternal kicks the khelpcenter devs for their anti-modular, yet we say it is modular due to kpart, application
<david_corrales> hi everyone
<david_corrales> anyone know about warnings with "non-ubuntu docs found" when launching yelp?
<mdke> yes
<mdke> is no problem
<david_corrales> ah k k :)
<david_corrales> thanks
<david_corrales> I don't get them on my edgy box though
<david_corrales> just feisty
<mdke> yeah, all is under control
<mdke> it's because there are some new docs in feisty which haven't yet been included in our patches on yelp
<mdke> warnings aren't bad anyhow :)
<david_corrales> ahh
<david_corrales> good to know
<david_corrales> jokosher is properly integrated now
<mdke> ah cool
<mdke> nice work
<david_corrales> no need for me to do anything ubuntu-wise now?
<david_corrales> concerning the docs
<mdke> david_corrales: there is always need :)
<david_corrales> I meant about jokosher :)
<mdke> oh. I don't know
<mdke> are the docs in the jokosher package?
<david_corrales> yeah
<david_corrales> they register properly if you run it via "sudo python setup.py install"
<mdke> do they register properly if you install the package?
<david_corrales> I'm not the deb packager, but the source python one does
<david_corrales> with scrollkeeper
<mdke> that might be something to check, I guess
<mdke> when the upstream version is added to Ubuntu
<david_corrales> I was told that packagers will probably just ignore the setup thing and put stuff in its place
<mdke> well you can always file a bug if it doesn't work
<david_corrales> ah k
<david_corrales> I'll try the package before the commit hopefully
<david_corrales> don't know who's going to package it though
<david_corrales> (I want to learn but it's fairly complex lol)
<mdke> sure
* mdke exclaims that the Official book has nothing about connecting to the internet
<david_corrales> hmmm
<david_corrales> it definitely should
<tonyyarusso> You're kidding...
<mdke> now that I see the whole thing together, rather than chapter by chapter, there are loads of things that could be improved upon structurally. But there was limited time I guess
#ubuntu-doc 2006-12-29
<mdke> bh
<mdke> whoops
<Burgwork> mdke: we ran into major time issues
<mdke> yeah
<Burgwork> mostly on the part of Jono and Mako, who are very busy people
<Burgwork> and yes, the book could use some a reorg
<david_corrales> for v2
<mdke> but I think also some basic errors
<mdke> like chapter 7 is totally out of place with the rest of the book
<Burgwork> 7 is the tips one?
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> it's pretty damn good though, considering
<Burgwork> the tips chapter was welded on after the fact
<mdke> sorry, it's chapter 6, actually
<Burgwork> I would rather have had the tips as "community tips" throughout the book
<mdke> yeah. That would have avoided the presence of advanced tips where the book doesn't cover the basics
<mdke> plenty of good stuff though. I hadn't seen appendix D before (windows equivalent programs)
<Burgwork> that was all me, dammit
<mdke> nice work
<Burgwork> I try
<Burgwork> right now I want to kill things, because I just lost, via a browser crash, our entire marketing plan for the next year, written in the last hour or so
<Burgwork> s/our/Userfuls/
<mdke> that's a shitter
<mdke> always work offline
<Burgwork> yep
<J-_> Hey, is there any way I can take part in the documentation part of Ubuntu? Whether it be proof reading, or writing about selected parts of documentation refering to Ubuntu, or Linux for that matter?
<crimsun> J-_: http://www.mdke.org/?p=67
<david_corrales> good post
<J-_> crimsun: Sorry, didn't realize you replied. Thanks.
<crimsun> np
<mdke> bdmurray: you should have got your svn access now
<mdke> ah, you're in, good
<bdmurray> mdke: yeah, I've submitted a couple of changes to make sure everything is working
<mdke> great
<bdmurray> Is there a mailing list for svn commit notifications?
<mdke> yes. ubuntu-doc-commits
<mdke> are you sure about tar cfvz?
<bdmurray> nope
<bdmurray> it'd be xfvz
<bdmurray> thanks
* mdke nods
<mdke> splendid, welcome on board
<bdmurray> Thanks.
<bdmurray> When was doc.ubuntu.com last updated? I thought there was a mail to the mailing list saying it was 12 hours.  Is that right?
<mdke> well, it was yeah. but nowadays it's totally broken because of the changes we've made to the repository structure
<bdmurray> er a maximum of 12 hours
<mdke> so it doesn't update any more
<mdke> we need to fix that :(
<nixternal> mdke: have you taken a look at how to go about adding the tbh to the makefile?
<nixternal> i have been playing around and can get most of the kubuntu stuff to build, but i have a ton of tbh (well 1 for each directory) calls in the makefile itself
<mdke> not yet
<nixternal> i need to go through and validate all of the k/C stuff and start looking at structure
<nixternal> i lost my coffee cup
<nixternal> found it :)
<mdke> lets hang on until the structure is totally sorted then clear up the makefile
<nixternal> khelpcenter in kubuntu is garbage
<nixternal> heh, tbh would be so much easier if we could run it on a small standalone apache server
<nixternal> do like ms and apple does when you click help, it fires up a small webserver in which everything runs on
<mdke> nixternal: erm, why would you need a server?
<mdke> you don't need a server to view local html files with a browser
<mdke> that's exactly what khelpcenter is anyway, a browser which views html files
<mdke> I can't imagine that ms and apple run a webserver for help
<nixternal> ya, but khelpcenter is garbage
<mdke> what's wrong with it?
<nixternal> search is broken, only in kubuntu for one
<nixternal> it is supposedly modular when all you can do is add .desktop files, which really isn't modular if you ask me
<nixternal> the code is nasty
<mdke> I don't know what you mean by "modular"
<nixternal> i prefer yelp over khelpcenter truthfully
<mdke> yelp is great
<david_corrales> I'm thinking about integrating my gnome docs with khelpcenter hmm
<nixternal> modular meaning i can add and remove functions, but all i can really add and remove is main links being created from .desktop files
<mdke> functions?
<nixternal> khelpcenter will hopefully go away and be replaced with a tbh system in KDE
<david_corrales> they should integrate all damn help systems
<david_corrales> /usr/share/help
<david_corrales> and that's it
<mdke> quite
<nixternal> good luck on that one, but i totally agree
<nixternal> /help
<nixternal> heh
<david_corrales> :(
<david_corrales> it's a PITA
<david_corrales> just finished doing gnome work... now learn about kde -_-
<mdke> I believe the Gnome guys have been speccing something up to show to kde, no idea if it was used though
<mdke> nixternal: you should put in a word with the kde doc people about it
<nixternal> do you have any links or other info on it?
<nixternal> i have the kde doc people's ears as we speak
<mdke> http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-doc-devel-list/2006-October/msg00001.html
<nixternal> since i am waiting for my kde svn account, i can bug them with something else :)
<nixternal> i didn't know shaun lived not far from me
<ryanakca> nixternal: ping about doc-linux-html
<nixternal> wth is that?
<nixternal> ;p
<nixternal> gimme sumpin' new todo :), the kde wiki is killing me right now
<ryanakca> lol
<nixternal> it made me realise how much of a pita mediawiki is over moinmoin
<ryanakca> remember me asking to fix the HOWTO bugs a couple of weeks ago?
<nixternal> oh ya
<nixternal> im telling you what, kerry beagle is the bomb! to bad it slows down kontact/kmail like crazy, but i can live with it
<nixternal> ryanakca: so what is the problem?
<ryanakca> just a sec, I'll forward you the messages I sent to the debian mailing list in charge of it.... it seems to be dormant :)... might just be that I'm impatient :D
<ryanakca> kerry beagle?
<nixternal> the search tool
<ryanakca> ah
<ryanakca> Sent... KMail probably decided to be a pain and encrypt it to you...
<nixternal> heh, and you encrypted it ;)
<ryanakca> I encrypted it?
<ryanakca> to me or you?
<nixternal> you encrypted it to me :) i opened it though, pinentry-qt actually works now :)
<ryanakca> lol, good :D
<nixternal> that is a linux documentation project package
<nixternal> hmm
<ryanakca> (there were two emails)
<nixternal> ya, for some reason i swore you wrote them to debian, but after reading it and waking up i see now
<nixternal> imm dl'n the package
<ryanakca> I did write them to debian
<ryanakca> seeing that we just auto-sync them...
<nixternal> heh, ok where in the hell did the package go :)
<ryanakca> dunno..
<nixternal> how do you access this documentation?
<ryanakca> brb in 2 sec
<ryanakca> sudo apt-get install doc-linux-html
<nixternal> i installed it
<nixternal> just thought it would come with a link to view it
<ryanakca> then fire up konqueror, firefox, lynx, opera, whatever, /usr/share/doc/HOWTO/
<nixternal> that's messy
<ryanakca> very
<nixternal> we need to create a .desktop for it
<ryanakca> which is why I'm organizing it... sure, I could try to do that... unless you want to :D
<ryanakca> how would we make it open up the default browser to view it in the .desktop though?
<nixternal> this is what i would do, i would create a patch that would create an index.html file that would have a heading and link to each howto, and then create a .desktop file to create a menu spot for it
<nixternal> as it stands, this has some good documentation to bring locally, but someone who is just trying out Ubuntu for the first time would drive themselves crazy trying to figure out what they just did
<nixternal> ahahaha, it has my quake howto in there :)
<nixternal> or you know what would even work, have it add the .desktop file to /usr/share/apps/khelpcenter/plugins and then it could be read there
<ryanakca> back
<ryanakca> there's already a index.html
<ryanakca> kk
<nixternal> where is it?
<mdke> aren't you discussing non-ui documentation?
<ryanakca>  /usr/share/doc/HOWTO/en-html/index.html
<mdke> what's all this about .desktop and khelpcenter then?
<ryanakca> mdke: depends on the HOWTO involved
<ryanakca> it's all HTML HOWTOs... if you want plain text, install doc-linux ...
<ryanakca> (I think)
<mdke> right, so .desktop files and khelpcenter don't come into it
<nixternal> well, i think there should be a .desktop file to at least create a shortcut in a menu to it, otherwise noobs won't know what to do
<nixternal> well if you wanted it to be autolinked in khelpcenter then it would come into it
<mdke> how will people who don't use KDE read it?
<ryanakca> nixternal: kk, but how would I make the .desktop file use the default browser
<ryanakca> mdke: they will use the menu icon/link?
<nixternal> well, that is why i think a menu shortcut would be best and have it open with the default browser
<ryanakca> mdke: and then if they aren't using a graphical interface, they're most likely smart enough to locate it...
<ryanakca> or at least read the README.Debian....
<nixternal> hiya jjesse!
<jjesse> hiya nixternal
<mdke> ryanakca: this isn't documentation to be presented to desktop users in the first place.
<mdke> or if it is, you're going to have to think about more than just KDE users
<ryanakca> mdke: isn't that where the .desktop for the menu comes in
<ryanakca> s//?
<mdke> which menu are you talking about?
<ryanakca> the standard application menu... KMenu, the Gnome application Menu, XFCE Menu, Debian Menu, etc
<mdke> you're talking about adding links in the application menu to a document?
<nixternal> a link to /usr/share/doc/HOWTO/%/index.html
<ryanakca> yes, so that it opens index.html (wich has links to all the HOWTOs) with the default browser... at least that's what I think nixternal meant
<mdke> that's crazy
<nixternal> why is that crazy?
<mdke> you're talking about establishing two help systems for each desktop?
<nixternal> so if someone installs the application, they have to search for it then?
<nixternal> no no
<mdke> well, you are
<nixternal> doc-linux-html is a tutorials package from tldp, it installs to a directory and that is about it, there is no further information..it is far from another help system
<mdke> people installing it know where to find it
<nixternal> i installed it and had no idea where it went
<mdke> you are an exception
<nixternal> heh
<nixternal> thanks
<mdke> anyway, it should be visible in the help system for the desktop
<nixternal> if anything, at least change the information to say where it is installing
<mdke> if it isn't, it's a bug in the help system.
<nixternal> see, this is where having 1 help system would come in handy
<nixternal> kde == /usr/share/doc/kde/HTML/%/
<nixternal> hell, even firefox/konqi/epiph or whatever would work fine for browsing help, however search would suck, but that is where beagle comes in
<nixternal> which i have been testing and messing around with, still has a ways to go
<nixternal> OOOH!!! Kerry Beagle searches the <keywordsets> in docbook :)
<mdke> just fix khelpcenter...
<nixternal> rm -rf khelpcenter
<nixternal> fixed
* ryanakca is back from some boring dusting... and that was a very... interesting... debate :D
<mdke> I need to do some dusting myself
* mdke dusts nixternal 
<ryanakca> lol
<nixternal> haha
<nixternal> i can feel the love
* ryanakca hands nixternal a super all-purpose dust cloth
* nixternal twists it up and flicks the tip at mdke 
<ryanakca> lol
<nixternal> WHACK!!!
<ryanakca> wouldn't you rather borrow a cat of nine tails for that?
<nixternal> i have no clue wth that even is
<ryanakca> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat_o'_nine_tails ... British Navy used to use it...
<nixternal> ya, i know what it is now...never knew it as that though
<ryanakca> even used to be used in the local Penitentiary (I think that's how you spell it) up till the 50s
<nixternal> the good ol' british navy...when we would pull into port, we would get drunk with them and fight like you wouldn't believe
<nixternal> most ports actually made it so we couldn't dock at the same time
<ryanakca> lol
<ryanakca> brb, again
<ryanakca> btw, did you get that second email that I forwarded to you?
<nixternal> yup
<nixternal> mdke: i thought you were buying lunch..back in a few :)
<jjesse> stupid coffee shop wireless :(
<jjesse> i hate that openoffice doesn't have simple things like ubuntu or kubuntu in its dictionary :(
<ryanakca> write a patch?
<mdke> there is an ubuntu.dic, I believe
<jjesse> shouldn't that be installed by default?
<mdke> I think it is installed by default
<jjesse> ah usr/lib/openoffice/share/wordbook/ed-US
<nixternal> heh, KOffice doesn't have them either
<jjesse> didn't have it chosen
<jjesse> there should be soemthing so konqi knows how to spell ubuntu as well :)
<nixternal> and firefox
<nixternal> what would really be nice is do like Microsoft does and have 1 dictionary for everything
<ryanakca> nixternal: how should I make the patches? 1 per HOWTO, or 1 for all of them? I think 1 per HOWTO might be better...
<ryanakca> easier to maintain down the road...
<nixternal> what are you doing to the howto?
<ryanakca> organising it
<nixternal> hrmm
<ryanakca> there's multiple paged howtos all in the root directory of the HOWTO thingy...
<nixternal> ahhh, i see
<ryanakca> I've put all of them into 1 directory named after the HOWTO... as described in the forward I sent you...
<ryanakca> and the HTML redirect or ln -s?
<nixternal> well, 1 patch to do the directory structure would be fine
<nixternal> html redirect
<jjesse> a little confused what are you two working on?
<nixternal> ln -s is garbage for webpages
<ryanakca> kk... just wondering about the future if we remove howtos
<nixternal> doc-linux-html (linux doc project tutorials package)
<ryanakca> jjesse: doc-linux-html
<nixternal> it is a mess
<ryanakca> all the HOWTOs on tldp
<jjesse> is that a new package we will be maintainig/distributing?
<nixternal> oh no
<nixternal> that is a tldp project that i wouldn't touch with a 10 foot poll
<ryanakca> no, it's synced from debian
<ryanakca> lol
<jjesse> sorry still a little confused, so what are you doing w/ doc-linux-html?
<nixternal> cleaning it to fix bugs
<ryanakca> jjesse: bugs 76312, 76313, 76315, 76320
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 76312 in doc-linux "doc-linux-html includes files that automatically open pages online" [Medium,In progress]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/76312
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 76313 in doc-linux "Distributions-HOWTO is generally broken" [Medium,In progress]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/76313
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 76315 in doc-linux "Some -HOWTOs have been removed" [Medium,In progress]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/76315
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 76320 in doc-linux "doc-linux-html is messy and inconsistent" [Medium,In progress]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/76320
<nixternal> hahaha
<jjesse> oh
<ryanakca> and I had the wonderfull idea to volunteer myself to fix them :D
<jjesse> sorry i thought you were working on how to move them in to topic based help or something and was confused
<ryanakca> lol
<nixternal> whew, that would stink to merge all of that
<ryanakca> nixternal: feel like writing the .desktop for it?
<ryanakca> lol
<nixternal> just copy it from a nother package
<nixternal> and change the words, then get it up so it can be translated
<ryanakca> kk... get it up so it can be translated
<ryanakca> ?
* ryanakca curses the debian people... Why can't they just use cdbs!
<ryanakca> it would be oh so much easier to maintain
<nixternal> ya, the .desktop file will need translating for one as well as the changes you made
<ryanakca> the changes I made need translating... meaning the whole package translated or ?
<nixternal> as soon as the new version (the one you create) gets uploaded, it is automatically stuck in rosetta
<ryanakca> ah... no clue how to set that up
<nixternal> you get some translation karma too for that...i think that is where my translation karma comes from is my packages
<ryanakca> ah... I translated some things into french... which explains mine :D
<nixternal> heh
<ryanakca> best way to get karma is threw the support requests... some of them are really simple too... "How do I mount a floppy"..
<nixternal> i do support stuff all fo the time, i have never gotten any karma points from it
<nixternal> mine is all bugs and specs
<ryanakca> https://launchpad.net/people/ryanakca/+karma      Support tracker... 119409... and I answered 2-3 support requests
<nixternal> https://answers.launchpad.net/people/nixternal/+tickets
<nixternal> and i have 0 support karma
<jjesse> i've never really understood karma
<nixternal> heh me either
<ryanakca> lol
<nixternal> jjesse: just so you know, when i create a new_whatever.xml that is the one im working on and it will replace the whatever.xml. trying to avoid some confusion
<jjesse> ok that's cool
<jjesse> i haven't had a chance to dig much into things :(
<ryanakca> anywais... I should start working on doc-linux...
<nixternal> i have to really figure out how to bring everything together just yet
<nixternal> if you are good with the openoffice stuff, the office portion needs loving
<nixternal> the games section is pretty much complete, just needing review
* ryanakca presumes your talking to jjesse
<nixternal> hehe yes
<ryanakca> phew...
<nixternal> unless ryanakca you want to do some topic based help loving to office docs for kubuntu :)
<nixternal> actually, the office.xml will work with gnome & kde
<nixternal> as well as the games.xml
<jjesse> nixternal: cool
<ryanakca> erm... not now... thanks anywais... really appreciate your trying to give me more work though... really do :P
<nixternal> hehe
<nixternal> heh, my dog just ate a habanero dorito
<nixternal> he liked it at first, i think he won't eat another one ever again
<ryanakca> lol
<ryanakca> in the HOWTO / HTML... if <BODY> </BODY> is empty, I can remove it?
<nixternal> try it and see if it breaks anything, but check the head to see what the linking references are
<ryanakca> nixternal: the head... <LINK HREF="Xterm-Title-1.html" REL=next>... this is just the forward page (Xterm-Title.html)... it forwards to Xterm-Title/Xterm-Title.html
<ryanakca> doesn't break anything... I'm just wondering if it's "proper"
<jjesse> reviewing for the LPIC level 1 is boring :(
<nixternal> heh, i hear you jjesse, although i failed it the first time i took it
<nixternal> read up on the rpm stuff because there are a few of those questions in there
<jjesse> nixternal: was it because you thought you knew enough?
<jjesse> nixternal: or was it just hard?
<nixternal> no because it was hard
<nixternal> lol
<nixternal> and i thought i knew enough
<jjesse> i'm using the sybex book
<nixternal> i was killed by the rpm stuff, backup stuff, and encryption stuff
<nixternal> you need a 500 to pass, and the first round i hit a 480 i think, mised it by like 4 or 5 questions
<jjesse> doh that sucks
<ryanakca> rpm... I haven't used it in almost a year...
<jjesse> i already took my comptia linux+ 2 years ago
<nixternal> ya i did the linux+ about the same time
* ryanakca hasn't taken any tests / exam things...
* jjesse has taken more of them then i care to count
<jjesse> i have my A+, Network+, Linux+, MCP, MCSA (Windows 2000), AAC, ACE, ITIL-F
<nixternal> heh, all of my certs are cisco, microsoft, and sun really, with the basic CompTIA certs (a+, net+, linux+), and then a handful of manufacturer certs
<jjesse> i think that's it
* bdmurray too
<nixternal> oooh, ACE ey?
<nixternal> that is nice
<jjesse> Altiris Certified Engineer
<jjesse> along w/ my Altiris Certified Consultant
<jjesse> AAC
<jjesse> for work
<jjesse> i'll add vista certification as soon as it comes out
<jjesse> january i think
<bdmurray> wow, that's a lot.  speaking of abbreviations . . . I noticed some variation in the abbreviation for MP3 in the documenation
<nixternal> ewww
<nixternal> MP3, mp3?
<bdmurray> yeah with more of MP3 than mp3
<nixternal> it should be MP3
<nixternal> MPEG-3
<nixternal> the file extension would be .mp3
<nixternal> my dog went for another dorito, overshot the landing and took a chip to the eye. he pretty much got a doggy dose of pepper spray from a damn dorito
<ryanakca> do we need the XFree86 HOWTOs? seeing that ubuntu uses Xorg?
<ryanakca> lol
<nixternal> i would leave everything in the package, truthfully that is a useless package after going through most of it
<nixternal> there are things in there that nobody will ever have to do again, unless they are using a slackware box
<ryanakca> meh... I have nothing else to do... and I get volunteer hours for it
<nixternal> hehe, enjoy and hack at it then :))
<nixternal> kde wiki migration all day as well in #kde-www if you really want to have fun (i would recommend you pull your hair out first)
<ryanakca> lol
<ryanakca> I feel sorry for the poor soul who gets to do the merges from now on :D
<ryanakca> hehehe... XFree86-XInside is v1.3, September 1997
<nixternal> i quit with the merges, nobody ever pays attention to the bug requests even after pings and what not..well i shouldn't say nobody, because i know of one person who does look out for me quite a bit
<ryanakca> I was in kindergarten when they wrote that HOWTO...
<nixternal> rofl
<nixternal> i was enjoying my last couple of months of active duty navy on the ship
<bdmurray> nixternal: what did you do in the navy?
<nixternal> gunner's mate
<nixternal> mark 45, 5"/54 gun mount captain
<nixternal> and EOD
<ryanakca> lol
<ryanakca> Do people still write HOWTOs even? Do people still read them?
<ryanakca> crud... KArm wasn't timing me...
<nixternal> ooh, i just learned about that application, i wanted to play iwth it some more
<bdmurray> nixternal: Where did you go to basic training?
<ryanakca> yeah... Riddel said to time all the stuff I do and then to email him the log so that it would count for Volunteer Hours for High School (we need 40 hours in ontario to get our diploma...)
<nixternal> great mistakes, right up the street from where i live :)
<nixternal> ryanakca: sweet!
<ryanakca> yeah
<mdke> oh you can do that?
<mdke> I had written to Jane to ask about that, never got an answer
<ryanakca> do what?
<ryanakca> get it to count for volunteer hours?
<mdke> yeah
<ryanakca> yeah... depends on the school's definition on "volunteer work" though...
<mdke> this was about translation
<ryanakca> translation would go threw with my school... anything that's for benifit of someone, that isn't during school hours, that you aren't paid for, and that isn't for family is pretty much our definition
<ryanakca> translation into what language?
<ryanakca> heh, WordPerfect used to run on linux...
<mdke> bdmurray: wow, you're rocking away there
<mdke> nice!
<nixternal> ya slow down, making me look bad
<nixternal> oh wait, i make myself look bad :)
* mdke nods
<nixternal> thanks
* mdke dusts nixternal 
<mdke> shit I still haven't cleaned the flat
<nixternal> heh
#ubuntu-doc 2006-12-30
<joejaxx> Helloal
<joejaxx> bah
<joejaxx> Hello All
<joejaxx> i was wondering whether help.u.c/community pages can be editted by individuals not on the ubuntu documentation team
<crimsun> I remember this question, and I vaguely remember the answer being "yes"
<joejaxx> oh ok
<joejaxx> thank you crimsun
<mdke> they are free to all to edit
<mdke> it's a wiki
<crimsun> mdke: out of curiosity, is your blog regarding open week & getting involved in -doc linked from [any site in]  the topic?
<crimsun> (it saves me having to pull down that url each time someone asks)
<mdke> crimsun: I don't think so
<crimsun> it's a great perspective and intro, and it's worth displaying somewhere
<mdke> I don't remember if the topic is locked or not
<crimsun> doesn't appear to be.
<tonyyarusso> nope
<mdke> if someone has a friendly client, can they go ahead and add it?
<tonyyarusso> URL?
<tonyyarusso> wow we have a lot of urls in this topic...
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-doc:crimsun] : Ubuntu Documentation Team http://doc.ubuntu.com or https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam | Get involved! http://www.mdke.org/?p=67 | backlog at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs | SVN - https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos | Please observe the Ubuntu CoC @ http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct | Next meeting: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/MeetingAgenda | Ubuntu's docs in dead-tree format: http://www.lulu.com/ubuntu-
<crimsun> err, yeah, that's cut off
<mdke> thanks
<mdke> remove the lulu bit
<tonyyarusso> only by three letters though
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-doc:crimsun] : Ubuntu Documentation Team http://doc.ubuntu.com or https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam | Get involved! http://www.mdke.org/?p=67 | backlog at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs | SVN - https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos | Please observe the Ubuntu CoC @ http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct | Next meeting: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/MeetingAgenda
<mdke> tanks
<crimsun> np
<ryanakca> nixternal: I've settled on writing a python script to automaticly move and reorganize the things for me...
<ryanakca> I've been working on the bloody doc-linux-html thing for 2-3 hours now and I'm only about a third of the way done...
<theCore> ryanakca: what are you trying to do?
<ryanakca> organise doc-linux-html...
<theCore> ryanakca: uh? why are you working with the html version?
<ryanakca> to fix bugs 76312, 76313, 76315, 76320
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 76312 in doc-linux "doc-linux-html includes files that automatically open pages online" [Medium,In progress]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/76312
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 76313 in doc-linux "Distributions-HOWTO is generally broken" [Medium,In progress]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/76313
<theCore> the HTML version is auto-generated, no?
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 76315 in doc-linux "Some -HOWTOs have been removed" [Medium,In progress]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/76315
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 76320 in doc-linux "doc-linux-html is messy and inconsistent" [Medium,In progress]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/76320
<ryanakca> theCore: they're automaticly synced from Debian...
<ryanakca> wich copies them from TLDP
<theCore> hmm
<theCore> wouldn't better to work directly with the SGML version?
<theCore> wouldn't be*
<theCore> as I remember the HTML version isn't the easiest thing to work with...
<theCore> and your changes would need to be updated when they regenerate the docs
<theCore> oh, I think they converting some of their docs to DocBook
<theCore> that is neat
<theCore> I wonder whether Yelp support SGML ...
<mdke> i would think it probably does
<theCore> nah... SGML documents are no longer supported. Please ask the author of the document to convert to XML.
<theCore> hmm... SGML seems quite similar to DocBook
<theCore> I don't think it would be hard to convert all the docs
<theCore> just extremely painful to do manually
<david_corrales> http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=327868 just in case
<robotgeek> hmm, i finally got some time. taking a look at docs now
<nixternal> heh, bdmurray what's wrong with AMD 640bit :)
<robotgeek> howdy nixternal
<nixternal> games.xml is ready for review, and i think i finished another one as well, just can't remember what it was :)
<nixternal> howdy robotgeek
<robotgeek> i'll look into games.xml for you then
<nixternal> might be the about-kubuntu.xml as well
<nixternal> i will have to look at it again
<nixternal> but that will eventually be absorbed into the ubiquity slideshow so i am sure it will change
<nixternal> and on that note, im going to bed :)
<nixternal> g'nite robotgeek
<nixternal> g'nite everyone else who just happens to be reading ;p
<robotgeek> night nixternal
<mdke> hi linuxphotogeek, all well with your svn access?
<linuxphotogeek> mdke: no. Haven't  heard a word
<linuxphotogeek> assume they will email me?
<mdke> linuxphotogeek: I'm told they did
<linuxphotogeek> checking spam
<mdke> this is you, right? https://launchpad.net/people/linux.photo.geek
<mdke> it was likely from james.troup@(ubuntu|canonical).com
<linuxphotogeek> found it in the spam
<linuxphotogeek> bad spam filter
<mdke> heh
<mdke> you're going to have to merge your changes with those made by bdmurray yesterday
<mdke> (to the same file)
<linuxphotogeek> what do that mean? is there a simple way to do that without re editing the file in my tree?
<linuxphotogeek> Still learning svn
<mdke> I don't know of one. I think what you need to do is to delete the file, svn up it from the server, then try and apply your patch to the new file
<mdke> if that makes sense
<mdke> probably there is a clever way to merge em, but I never read up
<linuxphotogeek> thanks - the changes are trivial so no problem.
<linuxphotogeek> I'm looking at scanner doc and question how to structure printing.xml
<mdke> great.
<mdke> I'm happy to have two new people on board :)
<linuxphotogeek> Right now printing is an <article> should I change it to a <chapter>?
<linuxphotogeek> and add scanning as a <section>
<mdke> it can't be a chapter, because there is nothing for it to be a chapter of :) as a top level topic, it has to either be an <article> or a <book>
<mdke> let's leave it as an <article> and add scanning as a new section
<linuxphotogeek> there is no sections in the article now so this will be the first
<mdke> eh?
<mdke> there should be three, iirc
<linuxphotogeek> I'm taking https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ScanningHowTo massaging it
<mdke> there are three sections in printing.xml
<linuxphotogeek> opps! your right
<linuxphotogeek> I don't see how scanning will fit as a forth section after local, network and testing a printer
<linuxphotogeek> again seem so unrelated
<mdke> we might have to restructure a bit. Maybe have three sections, Printers, Faxing, Scanning or something, then have subsections of those
<linuxphotogeek> ah! more like what I was thinking
<linuxphotogeek> does this become a chapter then?
<mdke> no, still an article :)
<mdke> well, actually, it doesn't really make any difference
<linuxphotogeek> don't know
<mdke> for now, let's keep it an article
<linuxphotogeek> Let's leave as article and
<linuxphotogeek> restructure into three sections like above
<linuxphotogeek> ok?
<mdke> yeah, sure thing
<nixternal> http://tinyurl.com/yda633
<nixternal> and now people know why i get all of the wiki posts sent to me
<nixternal> there needs to be a limiter setup with the wiki to prevent that kind of stuff. this is like the 3rd time i have seen this
* nixternal deletes with a smile
<mdke> haha
<mdke> sweet
<luis> algun manual de ubuntu 6.10 en espaol
<mdke> luis: https://help.ubuntu.com
<david_corrales> s, pero esos estn en ingls
<david_corrales> deme un toque y busco los que estn en espaol
<mdke> david_corrales: well, that depends on your browser
<mdke> https://help.ubuntu.com/index.html.es
<david_corrales> oh
<david_corrales> https://help.ubuntu.com/6.10/ubuntu/desktopguide/es/index.html
<david_corrales> I use my main install in english
<luis> gracias
<david_corrales> claro
<luis> David_corrales de donde eres
<david_corrales> de Costa Rica
<david_corrales> :)
<david_corrales> ud?
<luis> argentina
<luis> usas ubuntu
<david_corrales> as es, desde breezy estoy con ubuntu
<david_corrales> yo estuve en Argentina en el 2003
<david_corrales> como un mes y algo
<luis> por trabajo
<david_corrales> nah, fui a conocer a unos amigos por internet
<david_corrales> andaba de paseo
<david_corrales> :D
* mdke coughs
<david_corrales> mdke: :)
<luis> sabes programacion php
<luis> apache mysql
<david_corrales> algo... me toc programar en LAMP un par de cursos
<luis> tenes hotmail para agregarte a mis contacto po las dudas
<luis> si queres no ha problema
<nixternal> hrmm, this reminds me of my hood, i can understand most of it :)
<luis> espera
<david_corrales> y ac por irc?
<david_corrales> siempre ando en #jokosher
<luis> lo estoy buscando a ese canal no lo encuentro
<david_corrales> luis: /join #jokosher
<robotgeek> hmm, cleaned up the vmware article for servers
<mdke> nice!
<robotgeek> the latest one worked out of the box for me
<robotgeek> hmm, maybe i should also elaborate on how to actually install Ubuntu/other linux OS somewhere there
#ubuntu-doc 2006-12-31
<nixternal> i love how beagle searches w/in docs :)
<froud> Kubuntu documenters wishing to install KDE 4 from SVN should best look at http://developer.kde.org/build/trunk.html and http://developernew.kde.org/Getting_Started/Build/Unstable_Version
#ubuntu-doc 2007-12-27
<ubotu> New bug: #178927 in ubuntu-doc "Documentation Changing the IP of your LTSP server incomplete" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/178927
<ubotu> New bug: #178939 in ubuntu-doc "Documentation X-Windows parameters incomplete for X_MODE_0" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/178939
#ubuntu-doc 2007-12-28
<jjesse03> hello jayson_r
#ubuntu-doc 2007-12-29
<Uzidax> ola
<Uzidax> 1up to the community :)
<Uzidax> anyone here can give me little time?
<Uzidax> i want to help but i don't know how to :)
<Uzidax> i found a (little and maybe insignificant) error in the files into the "examples" of ubuntu 7.10
<Uzidax> anyone i can talk to?
<Uzidax> this is sad
<Uzidax> :(
<ubotu> New bug: #179297 in ubuntu-doc "oo-cd-cover.odg not updated images" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/179297
#ubuntu-doc 2007-12-30
<horseygym> is anyone around
<posingaspopular> yea
<nixternal> heh
<posingaspopular> nixternal: hey
<nixternal> hi
<ifireball> hello, I'm in the process of rewriting this: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/EnvironmentVariables
<ifireball> I'm about 20% done I'll appreciate some comment right now in case I'm completely off-the-mark, before I go on
<ifireball> (I'll also appreciate a quick proofread, I probably got many humiliating typos...)
<somerville32> ifireball, Why not e-mail the ubuntu-doc ml?
<ifireball> somerville32: I was hoping for a quicker response... n/m got some proofreaders already...
<ifireball> (I may mail the list when we're done with the current intensive batch of edits...)
<Michael-Memphis> I want to contribute to the documentation, how would I go about doing that?
#ubuntu-doc 2008-12-22
<jjesse> evening :)
<lninjox> i want to contribute to the kubunt project anyone know how
<crimsun> lninjox: perhaps jjesse would be a good contact regarding documentation for Kubuntu
<crimsun> (please be patient; his irc client is here, but he may not be)
<lninjox> thank you
<tmart> so say, I want to help out with the Ubuntu documentation.  Where can I start?
<crimsun> tmart: have you read http://www.mdke.org/?p=67 ?
<tmart> yep,
<crimsun> tmart: which group in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam piques your interest?
<tmart> System Documentation; I have already started to look at bug #298605, since is did not have a level of severity attached to it
<crimsun> tmart: have you branched the server guide using bzr? if not, that's the next step. then you can clarify the documentation, etc.
<tmart> I have, so do I just make the changes then post them to the mailing list?
<tmart> for review
<crimsun> have you gone through https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/Checking ?
<crimsun> if you have, then yes, submit the diff to the mailing list and attach it to the bug report
<tmart> OK, cool.  I will work on that then.
<crimsun> thanks!
<tmart> Thank you for the help.
#ubuntu-doc 2008-12-23
<Vantrax> afternoon, anyone able to advise me on adding some docco to the wiki?
<philip-> are you guys happy with how rosetta works?
#ubuntu-doc 2008-12-26
<anilg> hi.. how do I show << in xml format
<anilg> xsltproc fails (probably because it parses << as n opening of a tag)
<Gwaihir> &lt;&lt; doesn't work?
<anilg> that worked :)
 * anilg had tried \<\<
#ubuntu-doc 2008-12-27
<delicowa> i wanna be a part of the ubuntu development team how do i start
<Donald5> hey
<Donald5> hello
<Donald5> i need help
<Donald5> im new to ubuntu
<jpds> Donald5: Try: #ubuntu
<Donald5> how do i do that
<Donald5> im compltley new to ubuntu and this chat thingy
<Donald5> someone please help
<Donald5> some one please tell me what to do
<Donald5> please someone tell me what to do
<Donald5> SOME ONE HELP!!!
<crimsun> Donald5: this is a channel for documentation planning for Ubuntu and its derivatives. It's more than likely _not_ the channel you're looking for. Have you tried #ubuntu?
<Donald5> whats that
<crimsun> another channel. you're currently in the #ubuntu-doc channel.
<crimsun> try: /join #ubuntu
<Donald5> ok
<Donald5> thanks a bunch
<Donald5> sorry
<Donald5> it wont let me change the channel
<Donald0> excuse me
<Donald0> im sorry again
<Donald0> i dont know how to switch channels
<Donald0> please someone
<Donald0> im getting very impatient
<Donald0> i have been trying to fix this problem for 2 days
<Donald0> i am obviously a total imbicile to this
<Donald0> and i desperatley need help
<Donald0> i dont even know how to change the channel
<Flannel> Donald0: /join #ubuntu
<Donald0> i cant
<Donald0> some one is helping me though
<Donald0> thanks
<Flannel> type that in your window (where you're typing words), and you should join #ubutu
<Donald0> i am
<Donald0> but it isnt letting me
<jpds> Flannel: I'm helping him in PM.
<kg5uc> Hello all.  I have a couple of questions about the Community Wiki
<kg5uc> Anyone around and monitoring?
#ubuntu-doc 2008-12-28
<Rocket2DMn> I was wondering why we don't have the ability to set importance on bugs filed under Ubuntu Documentation
<ikillyou> fs
<ikillyou> d
<ikillyou> sd
<ikillyou> fs
<ikillyou> e
<ikillyou> f
<ikillyou> s
<ikillyou> fd
<ikillyou> f
<ikillyou> se
<ikillyou> f
<ikillyou> s
<ikillyou> df
<ikillyou> e
<ikillyou> fsd
<ikillyou> f
#ubuntu-doc 2009-12-21
<skiquel> hi j1mc, nhanlder o/
<j1mc> skiquel: howdy
<starcraftman> lo skiquel
<skiquel> hi starcraftman o/
<jjesse> howdy
<jjesse> my son when he wears his cowboy hat says "howdy"  pretty funny :)
<j1mc> jjesse: is your son still into NASCAR?  :)
<jjesse> yeah but the season is done :)
<j1mc> :)
<jjesse> j1mc: have we met in person before, trying to remember
<j1mc> jjesse: no, there have been a few times where you've been around here but i haven't been available.
<jjesse> haha
<j1mc> i think you met with freddy martinez and richard
<jjesse> yeah i did
<jjesse> trying to figure out next time i am in chciago
<j1mc> (of course richard...)  you all went out to dinner, i think
<jjesse> yeah
<j1mc> you travel a lot
<jjesse> that's my job
<j1mc> yeah
<jjesse> theres some discussion in regards to a document sprint or something like that in chicago
<j1mc> jjesse: do you mean ubuntu-chicago?
<j1mc> or are you thinking of gnome folks?
<jjesse> i think a mix of gnome/ubuntu/other distros
<jjesse> richard invited me to it
<j1mc> ah, ok... yeah.  shaunm from the gnome doc team is putting that together.  i think it's up for the spring.  it's cross-project, though.  gnome, kde, xfce, fedora, ubuntu, sun (?), a few others... ?
<jjesse> thats exciting
<shaunm> jjesse: still waiting for confirmation on the venue
 * ZachK_ says hello
<jjesse> shaunm: oh cool
<shaunm> the moment I get confirmation, I'll send out emails
<shaunm> it's a cross-project summit on saturday and sunday.  the gnome team will do a sprint on monday.  if any other teams are interested in doing a sprint as well, I can try to arrange some space
<shaunm> (if it's just gnome, we'll find a coffee house or sit in our hotel)
<twb> $ editmoin https://help.ubuntu.com/community/StricterDefaults --error--> You are not allowed to edit this page.  error: body information not found
<twb> What am I doing wrong?
<twb> Maybe that's just a really misleading error for "you need a login in .netrc"?
<twb> Yeah, that's what it was
<twb> Stupid editmoin
#ubuntu-doc 2009-12-22
<alkisg> Hi, I found the Ubuntu server guide at 2 different pages, and their contents are not syncronized. Which one would be the correct?
<alkisg> https://help.ubuntu.com/9.10/serverguide/C/index.html
<alkisg> http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/serverguide/C/
<alkisg> `sudo apt-get install ubuntu-serverguide` on 9.10 gives me the contents of the first link, and it misses e.g. the "configuring ldap backend" part
#ubuntu-doc 2009-12-23
<humphreybc> hi everyone, i'd like you to take a look at my new project that i'm looking for help with: https://edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-manual
<humphreybc> We need contributors, artwork, translators
<jjesse> how is this different then ubuntu-docs?
<jjesse> that is why should i contribute to this instead of ubuntu-docs?
<humphreybc> It's going to be a community-written guide that has all the information you need in one easily accessible pdf file, and instead of wiki pages it will be written in the style of a book with contents, screenshots, step by step instructions etc
<humphreybc> check out what I've done so far: https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual
<humphreybc> and you shouldn't contribute INSTEAD of ubuntu docs, but alongside. I'm hoping the two will work well together, the manual for first reference, the wiki documentation for more detailed answers
<jjesse> so just like The Official Ubuntu Book then?
<jjesse> i'm not trying to be difficult just trying to figure out what seems like a duplication of efforts
<jjesse> btw The Official Ubuntu Book is licensed under a CC=SA license if i remember correctly
<humphreybc> sort of, but the official ubuntu book is more detailed than this. I have actually ran it past Jono Bacon and he is all for it
<humphreybc> this will only be 50 or so pages, but I am also very keen to cut it down to about 10 pages for a "Quick Start" guide as a separate release.
<humphreybc> Oh and another thing, this gets updated every 6 months to coincide with each new release
<humphreybc> instead of being a one-off like most other books
<jjesse> is the source just the pdf? or how are you dealing w/ merges etc?
<humphreybc> no no
<humphreybc> the source is .odt and also some images at the moment
<humphreybc> there is a bzr branch
<humphreybc> I'm fairly new to merges and bzr, I would like someone who knows more about Launchpad projects to come on board as another Administrator to help run the project.
<jjesse> ok jst ttryingto understand the project
<humphreybc> cool no worries
<humphreybc> So do you think you'll be able to contribute?
<jjesse> don't know
<jjesse> will have to thnk aout it
<humphreybc> righto
<humphreybc> please do :)
<humphreybc> I've just updated the wiki, might give you some more information: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual
<stlsaint> hey nigel_nb
#ubuntu-doc 2009-12-26
<dhillon-v10> hi all what should be done for the pages that have the unsupported tag on them
#ubuntu-doc 2009-12-27
<kenyon> there is a problem with include macros here, see the end of the section: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide/Basic#Packaging%20With%20CDBS
<kenyon> I don't see why that's happening
<kenyon> hmm I think it might be because the include on PackagingGuide/Basic of PackagingGuide/Howtos/CDBS is stopping at the include macro for PackagingGuide/Lists/CDBSModules
<kenyon> the regex needs to be tightened, I'll try fixing it
<kenyon> indeed, that fixed it
<kenyon> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide/Basic?action=diff&rev2=66&rev1=65
#ubuntu-doc 2010-12-27
<Skaperen> Is it possible to contribute documentation by passing it along to someone who is on the documentation team?
<Atamira> yes
<Atamira> its better to pass it along on the mailing list tho
<Skaperen> the reason I would want to do it this way is I don't want to be on a mailing list
<Skaperen> and apparently it is expected for a member to be on the mailing list
<Atamira> yep
<Skaperen> I'm way too oversubscribed as it is and need to get off mailing lists I'm already on
<Atamira> sounds like a plan..start there
<Skaperen> but I won't be getting on any new ones ... I've written off the idea of mailing lists
<Skaperen> I just can't handle it
<Skaperen> the kinds of docs I am interested in contributing are things I've done and verified work ... such as "Postfix Dovecot Virtual User Mail System without SQL"
<Skaperen> I was looking at one out there now, using Courier instead of Dovecot, which is very incomplete as it is
<Skaperen> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/PostfixCompleteVirtualMailSystemHowto
<jasono> Hello.
<jasono> I would like to join the TEam/
<jasono> *Team.
#ubuntu-doc 2010-12-29
<rusivi> Regarding https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingOpenOffice it would be helpful if the location for crash logs was noted in this page, as well as required debug symbols, so those who create bugs can attach crash logs.
#ubuntu-doc 2010-12-30
<rusivi> Regarding https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingOpenOffice it would be helpful if the location for crash logs was noted in this page, as well as required debug symbols, so those who create bugs can attach crash logs.
#ubuntu-doc 2011-12-31
<MrChrisDruif> I wish everyone a happy and successful 2012!!
#ubuntu-doc 2013-12-23
<belkinsa> balloons: ping
#ubuntu-doc 2013-12-24
<bkerensa> Happy Holidays
#ubuntu-doc 2013-12-26
<belkinsa> Did we have some mailing-list server lag over the holidays?
<pleia2> could also just be unsubbed people posting and moderators just getting to it today
<pleia2> (I was getting email on other ubuntu lists yesterday)
<pleia2> knome: did you understand Fred's email? I saw you edited the page there
<belkinsa> I see, but I think Nick's e-mail is the only one that is not from a member of the list.
<belkinsa> I looked back and guess not.
<knome> pleia2, yes, there were links that were pointing to the 8.04 docs
<phillw> pleia2: knome as our driver for manual of lubuntu has RL issues, I cannot make that happen. I will, instead work with our wiki/docs stuff.
<knome> make what happen?
<phillw> knome: I'm getting better. But I cannot take a full manual for lubuntu 14.04. I will, instead, work with the TL of lubuntu docs/wiki area.
<knome> phillw, that's fine.
<phillw> knome: I'm a bit pissed as to lubuntu not being able to have a manual; but Real Life does cause things. As it also does for all of the flavours.
#ubuntu-doc 2013-12-27
<pleia2> phillw: might want to mention that in #ubuntu-manual (we are still separate teams, we don't do any of the manual stuff here)
#ubuntu-doc 2015-12-21
<gloriole> is this the right place to point out errors in wiki pages?
<pmatulis> gloriole (glory hole?): you can discuss but consider making changes yourself (you can include a comment). if there is something wrong with what you did the previous version can easily be reverted
<pmatulis> gloriole: i'm assuming you are referring to pages under help.ubuntu.com/community
<gloriole> oh crap bad nickname, in English it'd be "gloriola", lit. "little glory", "vainglory".
<gloriole> pmatulis: yes, yesterday i posted here about "Lubuntu/Mouse", but got no answer
<gloriole> thanks for the comment about my nick, am just trying it out, will switch to some other
<pmatulis> gloriole: glad to assist
#ubuntu-doc 2017-12-25
<kartar> hi
<kartar> hi
<arry> hi
<ritesh_> hi
<pragyansh> hi
<pragyansh> hi degville
<kartar> hiiiii
<Guest73721> hello
<Guest33941> HELLO GUYS
<Guest33941> HELP/
<nandishag> hi
#ubuntu-doc 2017-12-26
<Shayan> hello
<TheP0keB055> Hi
<CommanderSync> Hey!
<Rai> HELP
<Rai> JOIN
<RAI_> hi
<RAI_> hii divasura
<Ekajaya740> we
<Ekajaya740> divasura
<Ekajaya740> njing
<Ekajaya740> we wibu
<divasura> coeg
<Ekajaya740> oi rai
<divasura> hi
<Ekajaya740> rai-san
<divasura> hai rai-chan
<Ekajaya740> njing
<Ekajaya740> coegsura
<Ekajaya740> hello
<Ekajaya740> Yok gelud
<Ekajaya740> gelud
<Ekajaya740> hello smashing
<sai_> hai
<chinna_> hi
<DhruvPower> Hi, I am Dhruv Due to travel I was not able to complete the task on time ,therefore can the deadline be extended till tomorrow morning as I have only 1 hour left after which this task will expire. Looking forward for your reply Thanks for the help.
<nishantparhi> how do i delete a pull request
<nishantparhi> if i close a pull request then its getting deleted but when i create a new pull request then the old one comes angsin
#ubuntu-doc 2017-12-27
<Arvind> hii degvile
<ninjamods> hey everyone :)
<shatabdi> hey!!! i recently joined
<Adian> Hi
<Adian> where is the How to tutorial
<bineet> HI
<VBS> HI
<VBS> Hi pmatulis_
<VBS> Hi degville
<VBS> Hi evilnick
<VBS> Hi davidcalle
<VBS> Hi pmatulis_
<VBS> Hi degville
<VBS> Hi davidcalle
<VBS> Hi evilnick
<VBS> please join me in the ubuntu-doc
<ilham> PLEASE JOIN ME UBUNTO
<ilham> PLEASE JOIN ME IN UBUNTU DOC
<VBS> u are joined in the ubuntu dc ilham
<VBS> see the above code
<VBS> reply me if u have noticed the codde
<VBS> *code
<VBS> we are joined in the ubuntu see at the right hand side
<VBS> in the column
<VBS> GOING FOR STUDIES
<VBS> SEE U IN THE NEXT HR.
<Rivan> Hi
<Rivan> okay u said hi okay imma doing my task xD
<Rivan> u REP WITH i**
<Rivan> hi documentation team
<Rivan> heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeellllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllloooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
<Rivan> Hi documentation team, this is Rivan!
<Anushka> Hey
<RithvikK> hi documentation team
<rafae> hi
<rafae> hey anyoneeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee hereeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
<rafae> HELP/
<rafae> JOIN/
#ubuntu-doc 2017-12-28
<jumpingvaibhav> Hi degville
<rahulmetre03> hello!
<Vansh> Hi
<Akshara> Hi
<Yash_> hi
<AlexGabriel> Hi Friends!!
#ubuntu-doc 2017-12-29
<Harvar> Hi
<Nikki_> Hi
<hoduchieu01> hi
<hoduchieu01_> hi]
<sonich2401> hi
<sonich2401> hi
<Yash_> Hello!
<Adil> Hi!
<sbs> join
<sbs> hello
<sbs> hi
<terobero> hi
<codeup> hi
<sahithi> hi
<Dee_> Hello documentation team!
<vansh> hi
<ROcky> HEY
<ROcky> AOA
<ROcky> I am competing in the codein challenge
<ROcky> I have claimed your first task
<ROcky> And how can I report this that i have joined the ubuntu channel?
<pleia2> ROcky: hi there, can you share a link to the codein challenge main page? (I don't see participation directly from the documentation team, so I'm not sure what you're working on)
<tush> hi
<Mv> Hy
<Mv> hi
<tush> $ sudo snap install classic --edge --devmode
<Omer> Hi
#ubuntu-doc 2017-12-30
<Ag> Hello
<Ag> hello?
<Ag> im from google cose in
<Ag> code in
<vipinmishra> help me what is this
<SID_> Hi
<SID_> Hello
<binnet> HI!
<cJOshDEv> hi
<Sid127> hi
<devansh2001> hi
<Jeet> Hey joind my chanal
<Jeet> How is it
<NishSatish> Hello! I'm Nishant S, a Google Code-In contestant!
<Lohit> Hello
<Lohit> Hi
<terobero> ey
<terobero> anyone?
<terobero> im doing this
<terobero> https://tutorials.ubuntu.com/tutorial/tutorial-guidelines#0
<terobero> and my localhost site is showing my file in .md formad
<terobero> format*
<terobero> its not funky like a tutorial site
<terobero> ey
<terobero> ey
#ubuntu-doc 2017-12-31
<sonich2401> hello
<Cool> hi
<Swayam_> hi
<Swayam__> hi
<awesomeroks> hello
<hoho> hi
<Dragos> hi
<terobero> anyone online?
<mridu__> Hi, I am Mridu. I am new to this channel. I am interested in contributing to ubuntu docs.
<mridu__> I recently explored crontab. And found there is an open issue for that https://github.com/canonical-websites/tutorials.ubuntu.com/issues/521. But, it is not labelled tutorials content.
<mridu__> Can I work on this?
<pleia2> mridu__: you might want to join #ubuntu-google /cc popey
<pleia2> the folks organizing the code-in work are there :)
<mridu__> It's not tagged as google code-in :) . An I am not eligible for google code in. :)
<pleia2> ok, not sure how you found your way here then, but we don't work on tutorials.ubuntu.com
<pleia2> this channel is for work on help.ubuntu.com
<pleia2> looks like the tutorials folks communicate mostly through GitHub?
<mridu__> oh okay. Sorry for that. I found out a tweet. Regarding contributing to docs. https://tutorials.ubuntu.com/tutorial/tutorial-guidelines#9.
<mridu__> Step 9 said ubuntu-doc so, I happen to ping here.
<pleia2> good to know :) thanks for pointing that out
<mridu__> :)
<hp732m> hi...
<hp732m> I see the page about ubuntu-docs, and please tell if that could be a good idea about traduce some docs to spanish
<hp732m> that could be a good idea?
