#ubuntu-artwork 2006-03-14
<andreasn> night
<klepas> anyone know which license the DIY marketing marterials are under?
<klepas> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DIYMarketing
<lapo> yo
#ubuntu-artwork 2006-03-15
<smile> hi
<Q-FUNK> is the version of ubuntu-artwork that existed until about 1 week ago still downloadable somwehere?
<lapo> hi
<Q-FUNK> is there any repository where I could find versions of ubuntu-artwork prior to 3?
<Q-FUNK> i.e. prior to ubuntulooks
#ubuntu-artwork 2006-03-17
<joshhendo> yo
<joshhendo> anyone here?
<klepas> yea
<klepas> hola
<joshhendo> :)
<klepas> anyone awake?
<klepas> anyone seen henrik?
<eltower> hey
<eltower> *waves*
* netjoined: irc.freenode.net -> herbert.freenode.net
#ubuntu-artwork 2006-03-18
<lapo> hi
#ubuntu-artwork 2006-03-19
<Badm4n> hello
<Badm4n> any one can tell me about the screensaver timeout command on console ? so it will display on my putty
<dabaR> a screensaver on the console? in channel ubuntu-artwork?
<lapo> hi
<dborg> ah, great
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-03-12
<nysosym> hi there :)
<lapo> hi
<kwwii> ok, all...here it goes: http://sinecera.de/kdm_idea[0-6] .png
<elkbuntu> 404
<elkbuntu> ooh.. i need to wake up
<elkbuntu> kwwii, i vote 5 but slightly less dark at the bottom of the letters
<kwwii> elkbuntu: yeah, that seems to be what most people like
* elkbuntu also notes that some people should be forbidden from mailing lists
<elkbuntu> ie: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-users/2007-March/109114.html
<kwwii> lol
<kwwii> I knew someone would say something like that
<elkbuntu> kwwii, isnt it going to change before release anyway?
<kwwii> elkbuntu: yes, probably
<elkbuntu> good... because one thing that irks me slightly with the current wallpaper is that the gradients are visible right to the edge of the image, i suppose it's less illusionary than it could be
<elkbuntu> but then, personal preference
<kwwii> in any case, it will still get some work :-)
<kwwii> but I am working on something else as well
<elkbuntu> yeah.. that stupid kde stuff :
* elkbuntu ducks
* elkbuntu runs
<kwwii> ;-)
<elkbuntu> did anyone end up gnomifying your lilacy kde theme?
<kwwii> nope
* elkbuntu sniffles
<lapo> kwwii: is the wallpaper going to change?
<lapo> kwwii: I mean will it change much?
<kwwii> lapo: not sure exactly yet
<kwwii> everyone: I just updated the session splash, might want to check it out and give your opinions
<nysosym> kwwii: damn, yesterday i have installed kubuntu...
<nysosym> can anyone made a scrennshot please?
<kwwii> making a screenshot of the session splash is quite hard :-)
<kwwii> nysosym: good, then you can check out the stuff I updated today for kubuntu :-)
<nysosym> or can i have the source file? :D
<nysosym> kwwii: sure, i will check it out :)
<nysosym> whats new?
<lapo> kwwii: I'm asking 'cause I'm using something similar in the tangerine icons, so I'd like it to not change a lot in colors
<kwwii> lapo: basically, I was thinking of trying to make the light parts a bit less pink
<lapo> kwwii: not a problem, I only have a slighty bright orage wallpaper in the monitor icons
<lapo> kwwii: it's ok if it remains something bright as it is
<kwwii> lapo: cool, it won't be that radically different :-)
<kwwii> in fact, every time I click on the gradient tool inkscape dies...it might not change much at all :p
<lapo> eheh
<nysosym> kwwii: what do u have changed in kubuntu?
<kwwii> nysosym: the kdm, ksplash and wallpaper
<kwwii> but only minor changes
<kwwii> the logo is a bit more serious now
<nysosym> wow, here is no update for that packages
<kwwii> nysosym: yeah, it might take a bit
<kwwii> nysosym: it will be in kubuntu-default-settings
<nysosym> ok, i can wait :)
<nysosym> damn i hate vmware player, is it impossible to install them completely and is it impossible to remove them... because they can't install the network bridge corectly... :-(
<troy_s> multi stop grads were broken in inkscape a week ago
<kwwii> best of all, the latest svn won't even build
<troy_s> just build it from a prior revision
<troy_s> until it gets sorted.
<kwwii> yeah, probably right
<kwwii> reconnecting, brb
<fschoep> troy_s: you still around?
<troy_s> crap
<troy_s> sorry frank... missed the blipping
<fschoep> I've been here only for a minute so it's no problem
<lapo> my tangerine-icon-theme branch should be in buildable state
<lapo> if someone feels like trying...
<lapo> some icons are missing still but minor stuff mostly
<nysosym> re :)
<bersace> kwwii: hi
<bersace> kwwii: is usplash 0.9 a joke ?
<bersace> O_O
<fschoep> hi bersace long time no see
<bersace> fschoep: hi !!!
<bersace> :)
<fschoep> how's everything in France?
<troy_s> bersace -- sorry my brother...
<bersace> fschoep: presidention election are soon :)
<kwwii> bersace: well, it doesn't have a nasty line around it :-)
<troy_s> i was shooting up a mountain for a week... missed your page
<bersace> kwwii: the colors are really bad
<bersace> far from consistent
<bersace> the line are not consistent with the background
<kwwii> to be honest, sabdfl didn't like the last one at all
<kwwii> bersace: I know, but it appears that we cannot get around that :-(
<bersace> i really think you should provide a simplify version for the background with heavy statureted color
<bersace> splash are like that imho
<bersace> because they must detach from background
<bersace> fschoep, troy_s did you saw HumanFeistyList ?
<troy_s> bersace: No sorry.
<bersace> fschoep, troy_s and ubuntulooks with colors scheme support
<fschoep> I think so yes
<bersace> aarg !
<bersace> you must
<bersace> ;)
<bersace> http://bersace03.free.fr/pub/Images/Captures/Gnome/GDM/Themes/HumanFeistyList/
<kwwii> bersace: I am working on the wallpaper as we speak
<bersace> http://bersace03.free.fr/pub/GNOME/gdm/HumanFeistyList.tar.gz
<kwwii> bersace: should I put that in the package or can you do that?
<bersace> kwwii: i can'
<bersace> t
<bersace> i do not have the priviledges
<bersace> s/d//
<kwwii> bersace: okidoki, I'll do it
<bersace> ;)
<bersace> thx :)
<bersace> And what about gtkrc ?
<kwwii> bersace: you mean the fixed ubuntulooks rc?
<bersace> Ubuntu must take advantage of that feature of gnome 2.18, especially because we use brown
<bersace> yep
<troy_s> how is brown related to 2.18?
<kwwii> bersace: I will be updating that as well soon
<kwwii> bersace: I need to update my system first though, so I can test it :-)
<bersace> troy_s: we use brown so that some people are willing to switch the brown to their blue
<troy_s> bloody blue
<troy_s> uggh
<bersace> allowing people to that easily by picking a colour is very good for that
<bersace> i agree i prefer the ubuntu brown
<bersace> but our purpose is to provide a theme for ubuntu, not ubuntu-art ;)
<troy_s> indeed
<bersace> kwwii: i'll intend to maintain HumanFeistyList as you update Human theme
<bersace> I'm kind of GDM ListEnableTheme maintainer ;)
<kwwii> bersace: cool, if I update anything I'll send you an email as well
<bersace> nice
<bersace> kwwii: do you have a 4:3 screen ?
<kwwii> I'll be going through everything this week, so get ready ;-)
<bersace> lol :D
<kwwii> bersace: yes, I do, why?
<bersace> because for theme preview, the screenshot needs to be 4:3
<bersace> and i have only 16:10
<kwwii> I can make a screen for it then
<bersace> nice
<bersace> So the workflow is now : base artwork (kwwii) -> bersace (list) -> screenshot (kwwii) -> publish (kwwii) :)
<kwwii> hehe, yeah :-)
<bersace> So troy_s do you still agree with #ubuntu-artwork title ? ;)
<troy_s> i could care less :)
<fschoep> lol
<kwwii> bersace: the current screen is http://sinecera.de/ubuntu_feistyList.png
<bersace> kwwii: yeah !
<bersace> really rocking :)
<bersace> your artwork is really smooth
<bersace> and the list fit well
<kwwii> the list looks nice :-)
<bersace> kwwii: thanks
<bersace> kwwii: you can shrink the screenshot to 96 pixel wide
<kwwii> I just need to get this darn sesssion splash down well, and I would be happy
<bersace> in order to enlightweight the package
<bersace> ack
<kwwii> bersace: ok, next time I'll do that
<bersace> nice
<bersace> ok, good night every one and thank you all
<brads> how many designers here?
<fschoep> probably two
<brads> me 2
<brads> keen to find out if they do their professional work using linux ?
<troy_s> i think it ultimately depends on the knowledge and dedication
<brads> still just keen to know if people freelance using just linux tools
<fschoep> I did for a while
<fschoep> but I'm no designer
<troy_s> yes you can.
<troy_s> i have done a boatload of previs type things for music videos etc solely using foss.
<brads> i did one logo, just as a favour using just gimp and inkscape
<brads> i think its possible, but would have to be in that shoes to say for sure
<troy_s> it is easily workable assuming you have the knowledge and technique to back it up
<brads> thanks guys will sleep on it
<lapo> yo
<lapo> kwwii: ping
<kwwii> lapo: pong
<lapo> kwwii: I have a buidable version of tangerine-icon-theme, can you merge?
<kwwii> lapo: sure, if you tell me which branch to do it to
<kwwii> I assume bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-art-pkg/tangerine-icon-theme/ubuntu
<lapo> nope, mine
<lapo> ~calamandrei
<kwwii> can't you update that?
<kwwii> ahhhh, merge you're branch into the other
<kwwii> now I get it
<kwwii> sorry, was watching a film
<lapo> I think I can, but I'm not a big bazaar expert so I wouldn't want to fsck things up :-)
<kwwii> hrm, never done that before :-)
<kwwii> if you wait until tomorrow, I'll ping dholbach and make him do it :p
<lapo> ok, we're on the same boat then, let's wait for daniel to show up :-)
<lapo> ok, cool, no problems, I'll write him a line
<kwwii> sorry I couldn't help more
<kwwii> I'll figure this out with time :-)
<lapo> no problems
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-03-13
<nysosym> good evening :)
<nysosym> kwwii, i haven't updated my kubuntu yet, but i have seen the new ubuntu splash in the forum.
<kwwii> hehe
<kwwii> I thought it might arouse discussion
<kwwii> kinda did it on purpose
<nysosym> i like it, but the contrast between the red/orange is a little bit to heavy
<kwwii> yepp
<nysosym> and the brown left corner looks a little bit missplaced
<kwwii> don't worry, it will change soon
<nysosym> hehe, only a test? :D
<nysosym> tomorrow i will comment the kubuntu stuff
<lapo> link?
<nysosym> it's to late today and i wan't start my machine
<nysosym> lapo, http://www.ubuntuforums.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=27252&d=1173735696
<lapo> kwwii: kubuntu, red/orange?
<lapo> nysosym: thanks
<nysosym> lapo, no it's for ubuntu
<lapo> ah
<lapo> not really my thing, but not bad
<andreasn> hi lapo
<lapo> hey andreasn
<andreasn> tangerine going well?
<nysosym> hi andreasn :)
<lapo> andreasn, somewhat I have something which actually builds at least
<andreasn_> hi nysosym
<lapo> andreasn: you can check it out from bazaar.launchpad.net somewhere
<andreasn> oh?
<lapo> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~calamandrei/tangerine-icon-theme/ubuntu
<lapo> I believe
* andreasn crosses his fingers that he remembers how to get stuff like that with bzr now again
<nysosym> there is nothing lapo
<lapo> nysosym: is should be a bazaar repo
<andreasn> what's the command now again
<lapo> s/is/it/
<andreasn> bzr checkout http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~calamandrei/tangerine-icon-theme/ubuntu/ don't work for me
<lapo> andreasn: it should be bzr checkout <that link>
<lapo> uhm
<andreasn> hm
<lapo> andreasn: it works for me
<andreasn> "bzr: ERROR: Target directory "ubuntu" already exists.
<andreasn> "
<lapo> mkdir something
<nysosym> remove it or configure bzr new :)
<lapo> and cd there
<andreasn> all right
<andreasn> ah, bzr merge with my old tangerine checkout seemed to work
<nysosym> brb
<andreasn> lapo: looks great
<nysosym> whats new? :D
<lapo> andreasn: not much different from the old one
<lapo> nysosym: nothing special, a bit brights and polished here and there
<lapo> brighter
<andreasn> some 16x16 stuff seemed sharper + the menu editing icon
<lapo> ah yeah, I redid all the 16x16 computers, so nicer 22x22 network status icons
<andreasn> and the folders looks much better now, sharper
<lapo> it doesn't look like a pair of notebooks anymore
<nysosym> aa sounds good :)
<nysosym> will these integrated in feisty? :D
<lapo> I hope so
<lapo> ah the major improovment is 32x32 icons
<lapo> ugh, my typos get worse in the night :-)
<nysosym> yes 1am here ^
<lapo> uhm g'nite
<nysosym> i will go also gn8 my friends :)
<kwwii> time for bed here too
<nysosym> hi there :)
<funpop> there should be a little fawn somewhere in feisty
<lapo> hi
<bersace> hi all
<bersace> i posted HumanFeistyList at gnomelook
<bersace> http://gnomelook.org/content/show.php?content=54505
<bersace> I think this is a good idea to post contents here, this allow to see if people are happy with it or not.
<bersace> kwwii: http://gnomelook.org/content/show.php?content=54505
<bersace> hi !
<kwwii> howdy bersace
<kwwii> sweet!
<bersace> kwwii: i try to post on gnomelook my production for ubuntu-art in order to get feedback
<kwwii> bersace: excellent idea :-)
<bersace> see my first attempt : http://gnomelook.org/content/show.php?content=36862
<bersace> one year ago
<kwwii> hehe
<kwwii> using different icons like that looks nice
<bersace> those icons are in /usr/share/pixmaps/faces
<bersace> installed by default
<bersace> selectable with about-me !
<bersace> ubuntu does not sucks that much :P
<kwwii> lol
<bersace> i guess that all account should have a random default faces from this folder
<kwwii> cool, I'll have to pic one
<bersace> Or use a decent nobody icon
<kwwii> yeah, that would be a good idea
<kwwii> I'll submit a new session splash today, btw :-)
<bersace> nice
<bersace> did you upload HumanFeistyList ?
<bersace> Or do you intend to wait for a new HumanFeisty ?
<kwwii> I'll upload that today as well
<kwwii> at first I thought about waiting but I think it would just be easier to do it now
<bersace> ok
<bersace> I would like to have more and more feedback about Human*List
<bersace> As you can see at gnomelook, i'm not the only one who did Human*List variant
<kwwii> ;-)
<kwwii> maybe for feisty+1 we'll get a nifty 3d version
<bersace> http://gnomelook.org/content/show.php?content=22926
<bersace> would be so nice
<kwwii> yepp
<bersace> http://gnomelook.org/content/show.php?content=32045
<bersace> http://gnomelook.org/content/show.php?content=29784
<lapo> bersace: I like http://gnomelook.org/content/show.php?content=32045
<kwwii> hehe, that seems to be very popular :-)
<lapo> bersace: the composition is nice
<bersace> lapo: strange, i dislike the list aside from logo
<lapo> bersace: I don't know the theming capatibilty of the user browser, but it would be cool to have it more integrated in the bg
<bersace> you don't like the white bg of HumanFeistyList ?
<bersace> i agree it's not that consistent with ubuntulooks
<lapo> bersace: with the list not being a foreign element
<bersace> however, it allow to smoothly blend, just like the entry
<lapo> bersace: not so much, it's bold
<bersace> i agree gdm lists are kind of foreign element
<bersace> the font ?
<bersace> it depends on driver
<bersace> (yes, that sucks)
<bersace> i do not have that with radeon, but with i810 
<bersace> see http://bersace03.free.fr/pub/Images/Captures/Gnome/GDM/Themes/HumanFeistyList/
<lapo> I haven't tested it here directly but usually with nvidia on a 16:10 screen I get strane result with fonts
<bersace> ack
<bersace> i guess that's a gtkrc matter
<bersace> i copy-paste ubuntulooks gtkrc
<lapo> bersace: I prefer the list on the side because you have the logo way too up imho with your current design
<bersace> agree, however, the purpose of GDM is not to show logo, but login screen
<bersace> this is why i set login box at center with 50% height
<bersace> (50% of the screen)
<bersace> gdm is not usplash ;)
<bersace> also, this depend a lot on your screen size
<bersace> since it's a flexible theme
<lapo> bersace: yep, infact I think a central logo is not the best thing to have designwise
<bersace> i might divide the screen in 3
<lapo> bersace: look at what the fedora core are doing
<bersace> logo/login/empty
<lapo> bersace: http://www.isity.net/blog/
<bersace> i know
<bersace> their theme is nice
<bersace> except the black
<bersace> also, it's too wide
<bersace> i dunno if its flexible
<bersace> I wonder if i should tune gtkrc for the theme
<bersace> I may do so for the next version
<lapo> yeah the black is not optimal, but the way they integrated the face browser tuning he gtk rc is nice
<lapo> well at least it doesn't look like a foreign body :-)
<bersace> ok
<bersace> i will do that
<bersace> thanks for the feedback
<lapo> you're welcome :-)
<nysosym> hi there :)
<lapo> yo nysosym
<kwwii> bersace: uploading the GDM package now
<bersace> yeah ! :D
<nysosym> wow, for ubuntu or kubuntu? :)
<andreasn> hi nysosym (though I might say hi first for a difference ;)
<nysosym> hi andreasn, yes i think so ^^
<nysosym> hallo Leute :)
<nysosym> nutzt hier jemand Kontact mit 2 E-Mail Accounts?
<nysosym> ahhh wrong channel sry
<kwwii> nysosym: ja, ich tu es
<nysosym> kwwii: aber nur wenn ich dich nicht gerade stre ;)
<kwwii> ;-)
<kwwii> nysosym: wie kann ich helfen?
<nysosym> Ich habe einen GMail Account und einen bei 1und1, leider trennt Kontact diese nicht sauber genug voneinander. Das heit, wenn ich ber 1und1 eine Mail verschicke, schickt der auch meine Gmail Adresse mit...
<nysosym> das will ich unterbinden.
<kwwii> nysosym: hrt sich wie ein weiterleitung an, irgendwie
<kwwii> oder ist es in dein Profil?
<kwwii> ich habe 4 accounts, 3 POP und 1 IMAP
<kwwii> und es funktioniert prima
<nysosym> hmm theoretisch wei mein GMail Account nichts von meinem bei 1und1 was auch so bleiben soll :D
<kwwii> welche ist als Default eingetragen?
<nysosym> der Gmail Account ist als Standard
<nysosym> wre schn wenn das so bleiben knnte, denn die 1und1 Adresse will ich nur bei bestimmten Personen einsetzen
<nysosym> ahhja, wenn ich den standard Account auf den 1und1 lege, schickt er die GMail Adresse nicht mehr mit
<nysosym> hmm jedes mal umstellen ist doch mist
<kwwii> hehe
<elkbuntu> you guys are talking about me, arent you. admit it.. :
* elkbuntu waves 'hi' to kwwii
<kwwii> elkbuntu: howdy :-)
<kwwii> nysosym: stimmt
<nysosym> hi elkbuntu :)
<elkbuntu> 'sup? making ubuntu sexy, kwwii?
<elkbuntu> ;)
<nysosym> elkbuntu: sry for german, but my english isn't very good and i have a special problem wih Kontact :-/
<kwwii> elkbuntu: that has become the goal of my life, it seems
<elkbuntu> nysosym, thats fine :)
<elkbuntu> kwwii, better you than some others, that's for sure
<kwwii> lol
<elkbuntu> just keep the crotches out of it ;)
<kwwii> that is just too funny, really
<kwwii> when I made the pic I said that someone would say that....it *always* happens to me
<elkbuntu> hehe
<kwwii> honestly, almost every wallpaper I have made has received comments like that
<elkbuntu> convex and concave lines running parallel with horny geeks will always render that sort of reaction ;)
<nysosym> kwwii: i have a solution for my problem :)
<nysosym> kwwii: thx for all :)
<kwwii> nysosym: cool ;-)
<nysosym> kwwii: when i will send an E-mail i should change my identity AND "use send with XXX"
<nysosym> horrible ^^
* iac_lizardking is away: Pero ora assente.
<kwwii> nysosym: ouch
<kwwii> nysosym: it might also be due to the server you've picked as default for sending
* iac_lizardking[a is back.
* kwwii takes a break, be back later
<nysosym> kwwii: cu later :)
<goliath23> hi
<goliath23> does anyone know what color-palette is used in the (edgy) usplash when the text-colors are specified?
<goliath23> I built my ohn usplash, and exepcted, that one of the palettes of my splash-images is used. but it seems the palette for the text colors is some other palette.
<goliath23> any idea?
<kwwii> goliath23: that is in the .c file in the theme
<kwwii> goliath23: there are offsets defined into the colormap
<goliath23> kwwii: pardon? I don't quite understand. from what I see in the code of libusplash I'd expect those entries for fg and bg text color would be absolute in values to colors in my pixmap's colour palette, right?
<goliath23> 	/* Palette indexes */
<goliath23> 	.background             = 0xFF,
<goliath23>   	.progressbar_background = 0x7,
<goliath23>   	.progressbar_foreground = 0x156,
<goliath23> 	.text_background        = 0xFF,
<goliath23> 	.text_foreground        = 0x0,
<goliath23> 	.text_success           = 0x0,
<goliath23> 	.text_failure           = 0x0,
<goliath23> this is what I have
<goliath23> but somehow the text foreground color is blue. I have no blue color in the pixmaps' palette however
<troy_s> goliath23: You can generate your own palette
<goliath23> how? I thought the palette of the theme's pixmap was used?
<kwwii> goliath23: exactly
<kwwii> goliath23: you can define those numbers to determine the colors
<goliath23> so why do I have a blue text foreground color if I have no blue color in the pixmaps palette?
<kwwii> erm...that should not happen
<troy_s> goliath23: Go and look at the exact palette using a reliable image editor.
<goliath23> I use gimp
<troy_s> goliath23: I know that at one point during the last usplash development, Gimp had some issues with proper palette allocations
<troy_s> under certain particular instances (namely the Usplash allocation)
<troy_s> IIRC use Imagemagick's identify to examine the palette.
<troy_s> from the command line
<goliath23> ok, hold on
<troy_s> goliath23: It is impossible to beat Imagemagick's reliability.
<goliath23> do you know the exact command? or tool?
<troy_s> goliath23: I don't know too much about the current Usplash implementation, but you should generally check that the number of colours in the palette is as required.
<troy_s> identify
<goliath23> david@freebox:~/projects/flashtool/bcsxp-usplash-theme$ identify usplash_800_600.png
<goliath23> usplash_800_600.png PNG 800x600 800x600+0+0 PseudoClass 256c 44kb
<troy_s> do a verbose identify
<troy_s> identify -verbose usplash_800_600.png
<goliath23> what can I read from it? what's the important part?
<troy_s> if you look down you will see the palette information
<troy_s> and the bytecodes of the number of colours
<goliath23> yeah, it shows me the colors
<troy_s> iirc correctly, gimp for one reason or another
<troy_s> added an extra colour (well at least the gimp that ships with ubuntu -- the newers seems to not do this)
<troy_s> numerically speaking
<goliath23> I have colour indicies from 0 to 255 says imagemagick
<goliath23> the first color is the same as in gimp, but the last few are different from what I can see at a glanze
<goliath23> oh wait
<goliath23> no
<goliath23> both show the same I guess, I hade two images open
<goliath23> hmmm
<goliath23> none of my pixmaps has a blue color in it, though, a blue color is used. maybe the kubuntu people patched something there? But I think the same usplash code is used for both, just the usplash-theme differs
<troy_s> The only thing that will result in blue
<troy_s> in an 8bit display mode
<troy_s> is having the palette register a blue colour
<troy_s> which means that you have blue somewhere in that palette.
<troy_s> it is also why i said to check the number of colours -- if you are under by one etc you can end up with a colour you didn't expect
<goliath23> It doesn't look like 8 bit is used and still I get a blue color
<troy_s> well it should be an 8 bit image
<troy_s> is it flagged as such?
<goliath23> hm
<goliath23> how do I flag it as such in gimp?
<goliath23> I think I just created a normal image and then indexed it with gimp
<goliath23> hm  Channel depth:
<goliath23>     Red: 8-bits
<goliath23>     Green: 8-bits
<goliath23>     Blue: 8-bits
<troy_s> that is a 24bit image goliath23
<goliath23> uhm
<troy_s> you need to set the _total_ number of colours to 256 (0-255)
<troy_s> unless it is just reading out how much depth the palette has
<goliath23> how do I do that in gimp? because the palette only shows me 0-255 colors to choose from
<troy_s> (which case an 8bit indexed image almost always has 24 bits of colour depth)
<troy_s> when using gimp did you change your mode from RGB to indexed
<troy_s> ?
<goliath23> es
<goliath23> yes
<troy_s> can you dcc me the file?
<goliath23> yes
<goliath23> wait, I put it on webspace
<goliath23> troy_s: http://www.vidsolbach.de/tmp/usplash_1024_768.png
<troy_s> looking
<troy_s> ok i see nothing but aqua blues and teals in the palette
<troy_s> (aside from a bunch of greys)
<troy_s> goliath23: Is it not possible it is pulling one of those aqua's out of the palette?
<goliath23> wait
<troy_s> aside from that, the image looks fine.
<goliath23> http://www.vidsolbach.de/tmp/bcsxp-usplash-theme.tar.gz
<troy_s> (speaking in terms of colour depth / palette indexes)
<goliath23> this is the whole theme, which is not working for me. I want the text background to the white and foreground black (especially the text to remove the cd after stopping the live cd, but I guess that is treated like normal text
<troy_s> goliath23: Exactly what portion of the image is getting corrupted?
<goliath23> only the "remove cd and hit enter...text"
<troy_s> So everything is fine except for the text?
<goliath23> yes
<troy_s> The text is coming up what colour currently?
<goliath23> those number for text foreground and background range from 0-255 and are palette indicies, right?
<troy_s> Should be, yes.
<goliath23> currently, hold on, just have it in vmware here
<troy_s> Although I can't say with 100% certainty as I haven't played with the newer usplash too much.
<goliath23> it should be the edgy version
<goliath23> currently it comes up with 004100
<troy_s> a greeny aqua colour?
<troy_s> hrm... middle green should be
<goliath23> the text foreground is 000008
<goliath23> there is no such color in the pixmap according to gimp
<troy_s> Yeah doesn't look like it.
<troy_s> Well the creator of the usplash code is here
<troy_s> You can ping him if you want and perhaps, if he has time, he might be able to help you.
<troy_s> I strongly suspect it is somewhere in the image format that something is getting bungled.
<troy_s> Perhaps in the png to bogl
<troy_s> or like area
<goliath23> ok
<troy_s> You could look over the .c files output and see if there are any colours that match your
<troy_s> issue.
<troy_s> Again though
<troy_s> when running in vmware
<troy_s> you aren't in a palettized mode
<troy_s> which means that you can always expect strangeness.
<goliath23> troy_s: why should vmware be a problem? (sorry, I'm not familiar with image formats)
<troy_s> As in it is actually 'simulating' a palettized mode (unless you run in an 8 bit colour depth -- which case you will be subject to the currently running palette)
<troy_s> It has more to do with the actual display mode
<goliath23> hm
<goliath23> ok, but black should still display as black, and not green, right?
<troy_s> The display mode for an 8bits per pixel display has a tricky little bit of video hardware translation -- the single byte references the hardware's 256 colour palette as set
<troy_s> well theoretically it shouldn't be an issue, but I know from experience that not all emulated 8 bit palettized displays play nicely
<troy_s> To be 100% conclusive, you really would need to try the blob in a native 8 bit display (aka actually boot using the splash)
<troy_s> to avoid potential translation errors
<troy_s> At least, that is what I would do.
<troy_s> Assuming it works, it could very well be a driver / mode related issue
<troy_s> Again, when you are in a 24 bpp display zone and you are simulating an 8 bit image (as vmware would be doing) you are actually getting a
<goliath23> the .c looks fine
<troy_s> rendered window that is completely 'translated' to approximate what happens in an 8bits per pixel display
<troy_s> it is _not_ an 8 bit per pixel display in reality -- it is the same depth as your current desktop resolution.
<goliath23> ok
<troy_s> Which means the palette indexing and such is all handled via software.
<troy_s> Or translation hardware.
<goliath23> but If I boot on the other pc here I get the same problem and same colors
<troy_s> As in you boot and you get that issue?
<troy_s> without vmware?
<goliath23> yes
<troy_s> Then it is definitely an image problem
<goliath23> or a usplash problem..
<troy_s> Talk to S.eveas
<troy_s> He is the fellow who wrote the code, he MIGHT be able to help you.  But again, most people are very busy around here.
<goliath23> Seveas: ping? ^^
<goliath23> sure
<troy_s> Ok.  Hopefully you will find someone more helpful than myself.
<goliath23> maybe there's a standard palette, that has #004100 in it?
<goliath23> troy_s: thanks for your help!
<troy_s> No.  Unless it allocates certain colours to certain indexes.
<troy_s> But again, I don't recall that being the case.
<troy_s> Perhaps it is.
<troy_s> Again, sevea.s can probably help you / if / when he has time
<goliath23> sure. I pinged him, maybe he sees it
<goliath23> i'll relogin using screen to see if he comes back to me.
<troy_s> goliath23: Until then, try using a different image with a different colour palette and see if you get the same issue
<goliath23> re
<goliath23> did you say something?
<nysosym> re :)
<newz2000> Anyone want to get a sneak peak at the new website and help me resize some images?
<kwwii> newz2000: I'd love to help :p
<newz2000> Cool, actually, you're an excellent candidate because the kde screenshots are quiet poor
<kwwii> ;-)
<kwwii> just let me know what to do
<kwwii> although, I am running gnome now ;-)
<newz2000> ok, well, we're asking people not to post screenshots...
<kwwii> sure
<kwwii> don't want to loose my job ;-)
<newz2000> the pages in question are at Products --> What is Ubuntu?
<kwwii> ok, I see that page
<newz2000> I scared him away :-)
<newz2000> oh, he's back
<kwwii> re
<VeganChick> what's the difference between this channel and #ubuntu-effects?
<newz2000> this channel is way cooler
<VeganChick> haha
<nysosym> VeganChick: newz2000 is on the right way, this channel is much better :D
<EmxBA> 3~3~/leave
<VeganChick> ok, i'm trying to customize ubuntu, and i can't find any good instructions/tutorials
<kwwii> hrm, that killed my computer
<newz2000> editing the website?
<kwwii> newz2000: nope, trying to start another session to make screenshots :-)
<nysosym> kwwii: with xnest?
<kwwii> nysosym: I have never got kde running in xnest
<nysosym> kwwii: i will try it :D
<newz2000> kwwii: So Christina suggested that the screenshots on products/whatisubuntu/desktopedition are too big
<kwwii> I need someone to take a screenshot of a menu in kde from a fresh install
<newz2000> can you log in as a new user?
<kwwii> newz2000: that is what I was thinking too
<nysosym> kwwii: which menu?
<newz2000> Oh, I think I have edgy kde in vmware
<nysosym> i have a fresh install ^^
<kwwii> newz2000: yeah, that is what I did, but I still have the whole gnome desktop installed so all the apps show up in the menu and it gets really long
<newz2000> nysosym: sweet, you go for it
<newz2000> ah
<kwwii> nysosym: make a screenshot of the kde menu, while using a white wallpaper color
<nysosym> kwwii: ok mom
<newz2000> nysosym: that's Mr. mom to you. :-)
<kwwii> lol
<kwwii> nysosym: with the top menu item selected (so that the top item in the main menu shows the submenu)
<kwwii> nysosym: another good screenshot would be one showing the mouse-over on the kmenu
<nysosym> kwwii: right? http://img511.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bildschirmphoto3ik0.png
<nysosym> kwwii: the second one
<nysosym> http://img377.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bildschirmphoto4hf5.png
<kwwii> nysosym: yes, the is right, but the panel should be the default size :-)
<nysosym> kwwii: hmmm 42 right? ^^
<nysosym> ok 48 :)
<nysosym> i will do some new
<nysosym> is it ok with running programs?
<kwwii> yeah, that does not matter
<kwwii> I am going to cut out the menu
<nysosym> kwwii: the first one http://img377.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bildschirmphoto4hf5.png
<nysosym> kwwii: the second http://img364.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bildschirmphoto4ya6.png
<nysosym> dman wrong link of the first one
<nysosym> http://img372.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bildschirmphoto3hz7.png
<nysosym> this is the right one :)
<kwwii> nysosym: perfect, thanks
<nysosym> kwwii: no problem, everytime again :)
<nysosym> kwwii: for what do u use these?
<kwwii> nysosym: they are for the new website
<nysosym> for which project?
<nysosym> os is this a secret? :D
<newz2000> www.ubuntu.com
<nysosym> nice :)
<nysosym> comes with feisty?
<newz2000> hopefully comes tomorrow
<nysosym> amazing :)
<newz2000> wait until you see it
<nysosym> sure i have enough time today :)
<nysosym> i love surprises ^^
<kwwii> nysosym: dude, sorry, but could you make that second screenshot again, this time without any programs in the taskbar?
<nysosym> kwwii: one moment please :)
<nysosym> brb
<nysosym> re
<nysosym> kwwii: please my friend :)
<nysosym> http://img385.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bildschirmphoto4uw6.png
<kwwii> nysosym: perfect! now if you could also make the one with the submenu :-)
<nysosym> hehe :D
<nysosym> mom
<nysosym> http://img488.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bildschirmphoto3qa5.png
<kwwii> nysosym: perfect, thanks again :-)
<nysosym> kwwii: no problem :)
<VeganChick> this is probably a really stupid question...but how do i start up beryl?
<nysosym> VeganChick: for that please join #beryl thanks :)
<VeganChick> oh, sorry! didn't know that existed
<VeganChick> thanks
<kwwii> newz2000: man, how in the world do you edit that page with the edit option?
<kwwii> I *will* mess something up that way
<newz2000> the kubuntu page?
<newz2000> are you making images that you click to enlarge, or are they cropped in such a way that you don't need to enarge them?
<newz2000> kwwii: here's what you do:
<newz2000> click in the editor, click the third icon from the right
<newz2000> that window that pops up may need to be wider, click the icon to the right of Image URL
<newz2000> there you can upload images... note the checkbox to auto-resize images. May or may not be appropriate
<newz2000> after you upload, click the image and the url to the image will be inserted into the "Image URL" field.
<newz2000> Fill out any other fields you want then hit "Update"
<kwwii> ok, let me fire up firefox first
<kwwii> (no icons in konqueror)
<kwwii> much nicer
<newz2000> ah, without the wysiwyg it would be a pain. There are a few pages I have to edit that way (doing one now actually)
<kwwii> newz2000: what should I put in for Title and Description?
<newz2000> I can't remember which one is which, but the second field is the alt tag, the third one I usually leave blank.
<newz2000> kwwii: are these going to be "click to enlarge" images?
<kwwii> newz2000: yeah, I made the first one like that
<kwwii> newz2000: but I do not see how to make it do that :-)
<newz2000> After you insert the smaller image, click it then click the "link" icon. You get that same browse icon which you can use to browse through your images. YOu can upload the larger image and then click it to make the link go to it.
<newz2000> when you do that, from the "styles" drop down, choose "lightbox image"
<newz2000> Also, you may want to give the link a title that describes the image.
<newz2000> Some day I may add some lightbox code to make that more elegant when you click the image
<kwwii> ok, let me try this once
<troy_s> greets newz2000
<newz2000> hey troy_s
<newz2000> long time no chat
<troy_s> indeed.  how have things been?
<kwwii> newz2000: ok, I think I have the first pic done, test it :-)
<newz2000> ok
<newz2000> troy_s: things are good here, getting ready to update the website
<troy_s> any previs?
<troy_s> tell me that the website is going to drop that awful stock photography
<newz2000> kwwii: looks good
<newz2000> troy_s: new and improved awful stock photography
<troy_s> LOL
<kwwii> newz2000: cool, I'll do the other pics ont he page now
<troy_s> that's swell.
<troy_s> at least we are being consistent across the entire presentation
<newz2000> kwwii: do you think its safe for me to say that the new site is a dramatic improvement?
<newz2000> (design wise)
<kwwii> newz2000: definitely
<newz2000> troy_s: we're hoping to go live tomorrow... just adding some final polish
<troy_s> ah.
<troy_s> you could probably throw up photos of a horrible car accident and improve the stock photography nightmare.
<newz2000> yeah, we've had some photographers shooting some new images
<newz2000> the support guy is still hanging around somewhere
<newz2000> not on the homepage
<troy_s> LOL
<troy_s> he was a charmer.
<troy_s> we need to dress him up in drag.
<nysosym> bbrb
<nysosym> re
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-03-14
<h4writer> http://www.ossgeeks.co.uk/?p=94#comments
<h4writer> is feisty going to have a total different look?
<h4writer> is interesting, but it need to be perfected... A total look to it, like fedora...
<h4writer> Is there an up2date page, where I can information about it?
<newz2000> kwwii: realize you're in bed, but have to say, that is a beautiful picture you used for the digital camera screenshot
<kwwii> newz2000: thanks :-) that was my secret ubuntu flowers desktop pic :-)
<kwwii> newz2000: not quite in bed yet
<newz2000> :-) looks sharp
<kwwii> now if I had a decent screen for zeroconf I would go to bed :p
<newz2000> Are you still working ont he screenshots?
<kwwii> I am 99% ready to give up and say they are good enough :-)
<newz2000> give up, they're good enough
<newz2000> there will be plenty of time to upload screenshots
<kwwii> yeah, you are right
<kwwii> ok, time for sleep :-)
<newz2000> g'night ken, thanks for your help
<nysosym> hi there :)
<nysosym> re
<nysosym> where is the new ubuntu.com webside? :D
<nysosym> hi kwwii_ :)
<kwwii_> nysosym: howdy
<nysosym> how are u kwwii_ ? :)
<nysosym> wb kwwii :D
<kwwii> my laptop just died, sorry
<nysosym> how?
<nysosym> only a software failure, or a hardware failure?
<nysosym> brb
<nysosym> re
<kwwii> when I press the button to darken the monitor the whole computer dies
<nysosym> kwwii: wow, which type of computer?
<earthen> anyone alive in here
<newz2000> kwwii: doesn't that mean that the button works? The monitor darkens right?
<earthen> I've installed gnome art but i cannot click the install button?
<earthen> anyone have an Idea why?
<nysosym> newz2000: i think the idea of the button is to reduce the brightness of his notebook :)
<nysosym> kwwii: another question, u said that there is a new update for kubuntu artwork, but here is nothing new. Any delay for the update?
<earthen> how do i fix gnome art so i can hit the install button so i can actully use the themes
<nysosym> earthen: better u ask something like that in #ubuntu, because here is only art developement
<kwwii> nysosym: ibm x60s (brand new)
<kwwii> newz2000: :p
<kwwii> nysosym: no idea, ask riddell
<nysosym> kwwii: than u have a lot of guarantee for you x60, ibm/lenovo has the best support for notebooks :)
<newz2000> plus I think sabdfl uses an x60
<kwwii> nysosym: yeah, that is why I bought it :-)
<kwwii> until then I only had 3 macs
<kwwii> and although linux works ok on ppc, it is not something you want to install every few months
<nysosym> kwwii: sure in that way it's a little bit pity, that ubuntu doesn't support ppc with feisty anymore :-/
<kwwii> nysosym: yeah:-(
<earthen> nysosym, ok sorry I was asking that question there also and was told to ask here LOL
<nysosym> earthen: there is no reason to say sorry ;)
<earthen> :) yeah, just frustrating I have all this nice looking stuff that i cannot use :-)
<kwwii> earthen: what exactly doesn't work?
<earthen> I cannot click the install button it's all grayed out
<earthen> I can download the themes and look at what i cannot get LOL
<kwwii> wow, freaky
<kwwii> works fine for me :-)
<earthen> :(
<nysosym> ^^
<earthen> even if i run it as root i get the same error
<kwwii> I have to restart my desktop, brb
<kwwii> I want to test something
<nysosym> earthen: please start gnome-art i terminal and post the results here. http://www.ubuntuusers.de/paste/
<nysosym> and than post your link here :)
<nysosym> wb kwwii was your test succesful?
<kwwii> nysosym: yeah, but it still needs work
<kwwii> and tomorrow is the deadline
<nysosym> damn, can i help u in any way
<nysosym> ?
<kwwii> earthen: how are you downloading this stuff?
<kwwii> earthen: which interface are you talking about? the "theme" UI or the "art manager" UI?
<earthen> http://www.ubuntuusers.de/paste/8300/
<kwwii> nysosym: well, if I can get this session splash done today I'll be almost done :-)
<nysosym> kwwii: fine :)
<kwwii> earthen: ouch, no good
<earthen> whats no good
<nysosym> kwwii: your terminal result
<kwwii> earthen: well, that works fine for me :-)
<nysosym> earthen: please delete all your themes in $HOME/.themes and reinstall ruby
<earthen> ok
<earthen> .themes is that folder sopost to be in mt home dir
<nysosym> yes
<nysosym> kwwii: for the next release it would maby better to remove the session splash
<nysosym> *maybe
<earthen> sin synaptic i see 3 version of ruby of witch 2 are installed is that right or should remove them all and install only the latest one
<kwwii> nysosym: yeah, perhaps
<kwwii> nysosym: it is really only good for the first time you open a desktop as otherwise it is only shown for like 2 seconds
<nysosym> earthen: mark the 2 installed ruby versions and do a richt click, than u choose reinstall
<nysosym> kwwii: and good for really slow machines, but in my experience the desktop is almost faster available without the session splash
<earthen> nysosym, yeah just asking witch version should i install
<kwwii> nysosym: yepp
<earthen> 1.8.2 or 1.8.4 or 1.9
<nysosym> earthen: wihich ones are isntalled?
<nysosym> try the existing ones
<earthen> 1.8.2 and 1.8.4
<earthen> there was no .themes folder in my home directory
<earthen> maybe that was some of my problem
<troy_s> there will only be a .themes if you added one as your local user
<troy_s> just create it
<troy_s> or drag a theme into your theme manager, and it will create one.
<earthen> O OK
<troy_s> earthen: But you will need to drag a tarred zip into the theme gui app
<earthen> yeah I've done that before a while back befor i started using beryl
<troy_s> i don't know if the theme manager works for beryl's window manager.
<nysosym> troy_s: no, beryl use a own theme manager emerald
<nysosym> only compiz use metacity themes
<troy_s> newz2000: Where is that site my brother?
<earthen> most likely not but i'm only trying to install some of the boot logo's
<troy_s> nysosym: Yeah I figured as much.
<troy_s> earthen: As in usplashes?
<earthen> yes
<troy_s> That is ubuntu specific and requires a custom install.
<newz2000> troy_s: still trying to figure that out myself
<troy_s> newz2000: Lol.
<troy_s> newz2000: That doesn't bode well :)
<earthen> login splaches is what i'm trying to get
<nysosym> i will go to my girlfriend now, have a nice day my friends :)
<nysosym> see u this evening ^^
<troy_s> take care nysosym
<troy_s> earthen: To install a usplash you will either need to build one yourself
<troy_s> earthen: or use a package to install it.
<troy_s> earthen: Try downloading one of the repository sources from bzr and installing from there.
<troy_s> elkbuntu: Where is your blog.
<earthen> I'm not trying to install a grub boot splash
<troy_s> usplash is not grub earthen
<earthen> ok
<troy_s> it is usplash :)
<earthen> usplash is the boot screen where i enter a username a password right?
<earthen> mmm usplash is not what i trying to change I don't think
<troy_s> no
<troy_s> that is gdm
<troy_s> that is changed via the logon preferences gui app under admin
<earthen> if i understand right usplash is the logo i see at the boot time with the progress bar below it
<kwwii> bersace_: ping? can we rename the list theme to something without "feisty" in it?
<bersace_> kwwii: of course
<kwwii> bersace_: cool, I'll do that, then :-)
<lapo> hi there
<andreasn> hi lapo
<lapo> ciao andreasn
<wolferine> <Seveas> i try to help you, you respond with personal atacks. You get banned. Simple <-- how did I personally attack you?
* mode/#ubuntu-artwork [+o Seveas]  by ChanServ
* mode/#ubuntu-artwork [+b *!*@unaffiliated/wolferine]  by Seveas
<troy_s> wow
<troy_s> that's a first
<troy_s> what was he doing seveas?
<Seveas> troy_s, trolling
<Seveas> he was doing that in a zillion channels, got k-lined and is now annoying the forums
<troy_s> lol
<troy_s> i think that is a first for this channel.
<troy_s> newz2000: Where the hell is the site?
<troy_s> lol
<newz2000> delayed until tomorrow mid-day
<newz2000> assuming heads feel the site is complete
<troy_s> ah.
<troy_s> who are the 'heads' in this case?
<newz2000> Chris Kenyon, and mostly Jane
<troy_s> who is chris kenyon?
<troy_s> new fellow?
<newz2000> troy_s: Hes been here longer than me... he's on the business side
<newz2000> good guy
<newz2000> nice to work with
<troy_s> ah
<troy_s> wow...
<troy_s> there is a new employment opening on the ubuntu dot com page ... interface designer.
<troy_s> that bodes well.
<newz2000> yeah, I just took down two or three jobs
<newz2000> I think we're up over 80 now
<troy_s> i find it interesting that they are going to hire an interface designer...
<troy_s> it bodes well, assuming the 'design' core can get its bits together.
<nysosym> good evening :)
<troy_s> greets nysosym
<nysosym> hi troy_s :)
<troy_s> how have you been my friend?
<nysosym> find and you? :)
<nysosym> *fine
<lapo> hi
<lapo> hey guys impressions on the tangerine-icon-theme refresh?
<nysosym> sure :)
<BHSPitLappy> lapo, link
<lapo> BHSPitLappy: there's no link sorry, it's in feisty
<BHSPitLappy> ah
<BHSPitLappy> well, I'll be home in a few hours... I'll let you know :P
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-03-15
<nysosym> re :)
<PWill> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/feisty-session-splashes/+bug/92433
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 92433 in feisty-session-splashes "The newest splash is quite phallic..." [Undecided,Unconfirmed] 
<PWill> Who was having some fun?
<poningru> http://digg.com/linux_unix/Could_the_new_Ubuntu_Splash_get_any_more_phallic
* poningru takes off in his roflcopter
<elkbuntu> troy_s, geekosophical.net ... why?
<lapo> hi
<andreasn> hi lapo
<lapo> ciao andreasn
* elkbuntu pokes kwwii
<elkbuntu> seems you did it again ;)
<kwwii> elkbuntu: yeah, but this time it is already changed
<elkbuntu> hehhe
<kwwii> I was kinda expecting that this time
<elkbuntu> you need to stop looking at porn while you're designing stuff
* elkbuntu ducks and runs
<kwwii> ;-)
<nysosym> hi kwwii :)))
<kwwii> hi nysosym
<yharrow> hey guys
<nysosym> hi yharrow :)
<nysosym> kwwii: how are u? :)
<kwwii> nysosym: very busy atm
<kwwii> :-)
<yharrow> nysosym,  hows it going?
<nysosym> kwwii: fine, have a good work ;)
<nysosym> yharrow: very fine, i'm learning C now :D
<yharrow> kwwii, I coiuldnt tell whether the earlier phallic commnet was a compliment or an insult
<kwwii> yharrow: lol, yeah well, in any case there is a different pic in now :-)
<yharrow> nysosym, thats awesome. I got to do that to soon though its been suggested that I learn C++ instead
<yharrow> kwwii, cool, do you have a link to the new pic ;)
<kwwii> yharrow: nope, but it should be in soon
<yharrow> kwwii, ok great. Ill be on the look out for it :)
<nysosym> yharrow: yes my first try is a application to calculate currencies *LOL*
<yharrow> lol thats great though, I remember when I first started learning javascript. my first try was a calculator lol
<yharrow> very lame
<nysosym> yharrow: sure, that's my first steps with programming :)
<yharrow> I guess once we have the basics down we can make much more fancy stuff
<yharrow> although there are many great apps out there that have very little complicated coding and alot of great design
<yharrow> ui wise
<yharrow> I dunno depends on who the program is intended for
<nysosym> hehe :)
<nysosym> hmm my girlfriend crys in my ears, i will go away now :-/
<nysosym> cu later guys :)
<yharrow> oh ok later man
<TheSheep_> hello :)
<yharrow> hi TheSheep_
<TheSheep_> I just stumbled upon this
<TheSheep_> http://tango.freedesktop.org/Window_Experiments
<TheSheep_> what do you think about it?
<yharrow> hmm
<yharrow> gonna go check it out
<yharrow> TheSheep_, its definitely an intersting and original concept
<yharrow> TheSheep_, however I dunno how good it would look in real life application
<TheSheep_> I think I've seen something similar somewhere on gnome.org
<yharrow> TheSheep_, you mean you beleive that gnome might be planning on doing something like that soon?
<TheSheep_> no, these were mockups
<yharrow> TheSheep_, oh ok. what do you personally think of the design concept?
<TheSheep_> yharrow: it has certain appeal -- but it combines in one several ideas, and I don't like all of them
<TheSheep_> yharrow: it's also somehow Vista-like
<yharrow> hmm. what do you mean by vista like?
<TheSheep_> yharrow: I don't like the displacement of the application menu in both cases
<TheSheep_> yharrow: have you see the "ribbons" in the new MSOffice?
<yharrow> aha, I see what you mean.
<TheSheep_> seen
<yharrow> yeah
<yharrow> however, this is a little less drastic
<yharrow> there just moving it up a few pixels if im not mistaken
<yharrow> in vista and with the ribbons there was  significantly different ui
<yharrow> However, I still dont feel comfortable with it
<yharrow> I kinda like having a definitive strip on top that I can call the title bar
<yharrow> in the proposed design it seems a little flat and undefined
<yharrow> also, if they made the menu bar the same as the title bar then they would have to make each as dark as the other in my opinion
<yharrow> otherwise it would clash
<yharrow> that means blue title bar and white text = blue and white menu bar = blue and white menus which i dont think would go very well and would kinda stand out in the wrong way
<yharrow> you could in theory make the menus grey and the menu bar blue, but I dont think that would look good either
<yharrow> I do like the idea of having a small resizing box in the lower right hand corner
<yharrow> only because I find it difficult to hit the exactly right spot when I try to resize
<TheSheep_> yes, good, big controls are nice
<TheSheep_> you can just make the whole thing white with black text on it :)
<yharrow> TheSheep_, i'd be able to make a much better decision if someone would develop a proof of concept theme for gnome /metacity or something
<TheSheep_> actually that's how it looks for me with the katiola window theme
<TheSheep_> I guess you'd need at least a separate theme engine, or even some hacks in the window manager
<kwwii> bersace: ping? do you know how to make the gtkrc make the window deco look exactly like edgy?
<kwwii> bersace: I have tried and cannot figure it out :-(
<TheSheep_> kwwii: isn't the window decoration in separate file?
<TheSheep_> kwwii: I mean, the window manager themes are different than the gtk themes...
<kwwii> TheSheep_: I believe they are defined in that file as well
<TheSheep_> kwwii: well, can't you look into the edgy's default theme?
<TheSheep_> kwwii: look for metacity-theme-1.xml
<kwwii> TheSheep_: that file references the colors defined in the gtkrc
<TheSheep_> yharrow: here it is! http://live.gnome.org/BrianMuhumuza/ToPaZ/
<yharrow> TheSheep_, am looking at it now. great find! :)
<TheSheep_> this one looks mac-os-ish :)
<yharrow> in concept perhaps
<yharrow> there is something original to it
<yharrow> i mean in appearance
<yharrow> in concept its differnt
<yharrow> at least thats what i feel
<yharrow> :)
<troy_s> greets TheSheep_
<troy_s> <yharrow> I dunno depends on who the program is intended for
<TheSheep_> hi troy_s
<troy_s> I think that is the most astute comment.
<troy_s> Once again, all design should consider the audience _first_ and _foremost_.
<troy_s> How you been TheSheep_ ?
<TheSheep_> troy_s: busy :)
<troy_s> Good to hear
<TheSheep_> troy_s: how are you?
<troy_s> Pretty good thanks.
<TheSheep_> troy_s: any progress on ubun2?
* TheSheep_ checks the wiki
<troy_s> a little, been busy with work and the feature.
<troy_s> TheSheep_: Sorry... phone
<troy_s> Yeah I have been deadly busy with the various bits in RL which is unfortunate.
<TheSheep_> it's busy time
<TheSheep_> spring
<troy_s> It looks like the feature trilogy is going to get green lit etc, so I have been trying to assemble a creative scrapbook for the project.
<troy_s> Get some tones etc.
<TheSheep_> feature trilogy?
<TheSheep_> blubuntu, oransoda, tec?
<TheSheep_> etc
<troy_s> Lol
<troy_s> No, nothing to do with Free Software :)
<TheSheep_> ah, ok
<TheSheep_> sorry
<troy_s> Feature film land.
<TheSheep_> green lit?
<TheSheep_> something to do with the movie technology?
<troy_s> green light == go to start pre-production bits.
<TheSheep_> ah, like, approval, right
<troy_s> basically you go through a phase where you have a concept (in this case the rights to a series of books)
<troy_s> and you need to shop it around to the studios
<troy_s> when it gets the 'green light' it means that they are going to fund the development of certain aspects.
<troy_s> it is a massively slow machine.
<TheSheep_> I see -- so it's very good!
<troy_s> hopefully... you learn to not get your hopes up as it is a deadly slow process.
<troy_s> but yes... it has been on a positive track for the last year and a half, but again, it is slow
<troy_s> it is pretty much impossible that it _won't_ happen due to the nature of the literature that is owned.
<troy_s> anyways, i have been working on assembling a creative scrapbook of brainstorms -- art bits, motifs, philosophy, music, etc.
<troy_s> trying to get the foundation in place for the various meetings.
<troy_s> i had something to show you recently and now i must remember what the hell it was.
<TheSheep_> no hurry
<yharrow> hey troy_s
<TheSheep_> I'll be here for a while now, I think
<troy_s> completely unfinished
<troy_s> but you get the idea
<troy_s> 100% inkscape
<troy_s> i am working on a few bits to offer up for the inkscape guys.
<TheSheep_> the last web devel project I used inkscape for turned into a pice of trash :(
<troy_s> here let me export a smaller version
<TheSheep_> but that was more a fault of totally bad process :)
<troy_s> process is everything
<troy_s> as you can probably expect
<yharrow> TheSheep_,what kind of website was it?
<troy_s> without the formalized patterns of design
<troy_s> all projects are doomed to fail or be extremely mediocre
<troy_s> (i am quite certain you know what i am alluding to :) )
<yharrow> troy_s, I couldnt have said it better
<TheSheep_> yharrow: for displaying stats and other results of spying on the users :)
<yharrow> TheSheep_, how intriguing ;)
<troy_s> TheSheep_: dcc accept troy_s
<TheSheep_> yharrow: the client didn't really know what he wants, ythey wanted us to start with the graphical design of the application
<troy_s> yharrow:  Unfortunately we will be waiting for a while to see that happen.
<troy_s> Ignore the hair and such...
<troy_s> as you can see, completely unfinished :)
<yharrow> TheSheep_, gotta love i when the client doesnt know what he wants and then goes ahead and berates you for not making it good enough
<troy_s> TheSheep_: Classic mistake.  As opposed to getting the foundating in place:  Audience, Concept, etc.
<troy_s> Silly buggers.
<yharrow> ya
<troy_s> Of course, in the opposite end of the spectrum, have a look at the Fedora work.
<troy_s> It is so going to clobber Ubuntu.
<TheSheep_> then again I shoudn't let myself get involved -- it was stinking from a mile away
<yharrow> troy_s, what do you think of ubuntus process for design
<troy_s> yharrow: It is horrible.  We tried to _establish_ one during edgy, but the entire effort was a waste of time.
<yharrow> troy_s, what is your opinion of the current design process for feisty
<troy_s> Now we have what you see.  Nothing for a process, no directed audience, nothing for a concept, and derivative and mediocre implementation of 'blah'.
<yharrow> ( exclusive consulting for main design)
<troy_s> I have tried to summarize my thoughts of the weakness in my little irrelelvant blog.
<yharrow> troy_s, i think there is some direction but not enough
* TheSheep_ <-- happy medicore user of OranSun ;)
<yharrow> troy_s, what is the link for your blog?
<yharrow> hehe
<troy_s> OranSun is quite good.  Lizardking did some good work with that.
<troy_s> A) No audience.
<troy_s> B) No concept.
<TheSheep_> the scrollbars were terrible, but that's easy to fix ;)
<troy_s> Let me quote one of the esteemed designers out there, who also happens to be in print:
<yharrow> troy_s, I am having mixed thoughts over the tango themes..
<troy_s> "Concept may be King (and Queen, and Czar, etc.), but AUDIENCE is the force that governs over all."
<yharrow> troy_s, I think sometimes they just look a little too round or slanty and not proffesional enough
<troy_s> I think you risk using terms that don't exactly specify what you mean -- "Professional" is a term that drives me bananas.
<yharrow> troy_s, where is that quote from?
<TheSheep_> tango is *supposed* to be average, bleak and to blend in
<troy_s> j. krause, design basics index.
<troy_s> tango unfortunately suffers from the same design flaws.
<yharrow> troy_s, haha, i had a feeling you would say that. sorry for using the trem
<troy_s> yharrow: I think I can appreciate what you are trying to say, but unfortunately, when you are talking about _expressing_ a concept through a design
<yharrow> troy_s, professional to me means appealing to the intended audience and cosistent with design guidelines
<troy_s> you really must break down those nebulous terms into specifics.
<TheSheep_> I think that Tango has similar goals as the Arial font had ;)
<troy_s> For example, I have spent god knows how long trying to distill what 'elegant' means
<troy_s> yharrow: That is probably a more working term.
<troy_s> yharrow: There are no design guidelines.
<troy_s> ;)
<troy_s> It truly is unfortunate, as it seems that Ubuntu doesn't want to seek the
<yharrow> hehe, I'd say elegant is less warm then then it is subtly attractive if that makes any sense
<troy_s> 'mainstream' audience, as it appears to be worried about how the GNOME interface appears by default etc.
<yharrow> troy_s, what do you mean by being worried about the gnome interface
<TheSheep_> next term to investigate: "sophisticated" ;)
<troy_s> yharrow: Specifically, we tried to break down the term into concrete artistic elements -- ended up being loosely associated with other realms such as calligraphy (sweeping strokes that extend from fat to thin with tails etc.)
<yharrow> how does that conflict with beign interested in the approval of the mainstream audience
<troy_s> yharrow: It seems that instead of wondering what say, a 21-36 year old user wants in an interface, Ubuntu doesn't want to tweak with the GNOME default layout.
<troy_s> The difference is that sabdfl could, at his whim, have the interface completely warped to meet the needs of a particular audience in a _day_
<yharrow> troy_s, you mean the default for gnome is to have the applications menu on the top bar
<yharrow> ?
<troy_s> The process by which Gnome is developed is much slower.
<troy_s> yes.
<troy_s> the dual bar, etc.
<yharrow> thats messed up
<troy_s> Look at the gnome 2.18 layout.
<troy_s> So there are many fundamental issues at play that aren't exactly relevant initially.
<yharrow> troy_s, on the other hand Im sure there is a motive fro ubuntu being so tightly integrated with gnome
<troy_s> If anything, even strictly speaking with the artwork, I find that it lacks communication on the most fundamental level.
<troy_s> yharrow: I suspect it is to keep the Gnome support.
<yharrow> troy_s, mark is a smart man and so are all the developers working with him
<troy_s> again, that appears diametrically opposed to what the mainstream audience requires -- they could care less about KDE or Gnome.
<troy_s> yharrow: Smart, but not infallible.
<yharrow> troy_s, true
<yharrow> troy_s, when you say they could care less about kde or gnome what do you mean
<troy_s> I mean that the mainstream audience (Ubuntu's rather almost apparent audience -- not entirely certain)
<troy_s> again, suggesting something along the lines of 21-36 -- mature
<yharrow> troy_s, I agree with you, as in with all forms of art, the method is not as important as the end result
<TheSheep_> most users asked about what gnome is will say: a small man with long nose living in the mountains and guarding treasures ;)
<yharrow> that is not to say by any means taht method is unimportant
<yharrow> TheSheep_, haha, yeah id have to agree with you.. and thats only if they live in england
<yharrow> other people will just drop their jaws and go "huh"
<troy_s> yharrow: I think the method is probably more important -- research, planning, brainstorming are all important to reach the desired goal.
<yharrow> well what i mean is that the method is less important to the end use than the overall appearance and functionality
<troy_s> without which, you run the risk of designing something that strictly meets the needs of a single individual or worse, completely lacking concept or direction.
<yharrow> to the developer/artist effective method is extremely important if not crucial
<troy_s> yharrow: Again, TheSheep_'s comment seems on point
<yharrow> I think sheep and I are the same page
<troy_s> I think that fundamentally what we are seeing is a disjoint between the Free Software developer approach and art and design.
<yharrow> on the*
<yharrow> is that since art and design requires a higher level of insight and organization.
<yharrow> ?
<troy_s> well i would suggest that art and design, when applied on a high level, requires a heckuva lot more formal thinking and planning that what most people 'believe' to be the proper course.
<yharrow> troy_s, I think that if there is an organizational problem it applies to every area.
<troy_s> could be.
<TheSheep_> troy_s: otoh, one of the goals of Ubuntu is to popularize opensource itself
<TheSheep_> troy_s: so they *want* people to care what Gnome and KDE is
<troy_s> TheSheep_: I think that is completely mooted by the coarse reality that if people don't have a 'wow that would be lovely in my lifestyle' it will never be adopted
<yharrow> troy_s, in my opinion every single process known to man would benefit from organization and suffer from fragmetation and lack of clear goals
<troy_s> and I don't mean the silly crap that sabdfl pushes -- like gloss and glits
<troy_s> if you look to an expensive home
<troy_s> or a showhome / or a piece of art.
<troy_s> you will find many elements that have nothing to do with gloss and plastics
<troy_s> but more to do with craftmanship and a distinct identity.
<troy_s> yharrow:  Sorry, relating to your earlier one... http://troy-sobotka.blogspot.com/
<yharrow> troy_s, I agree that there is too much of an emphasis on high contrast? and the gloss effect.
<troy_s> A) plastics and gloss are dated and done.  If we are strictly speaking in terms of implementation details, we need a core of people who can clearly speak that language and can clearly see how the trend is over.
<TheSheep_> troy_s: I was thinking about the home methaphor, and I must admit that a toolbox methaphor is closer for me :)
<troy_s> TheSheep_: The problem with a toolbox is tha tyou don't live in it.
<troy_s> TheSheep_: More and more, computers have infiltrated every element of our lives -- from communication to art to literature to music to science etc...
<troy_s> we spend more and more time connected to the net, to others, etc., than we did in the early years.
<troy_s> We have set up 'places' online -- residences, meeting grounds, etc.
<TheSheep_> troy_s: well, my room looks more like a workshop than like a home :)
<troy_s> TheSheep_: Exceptions asdie :)
<TheSheep_> troy_s: many of my friends are the same ;)
<troy_s> TheSheep_: But you are here too aren't you :)
<yharrow> there is something in the human psyche that associates everything shiny with being new and improved. Which is fine within itself. However people dont spend their entire lives in the moment of glits. a new car isnt always shiny
<troy_s> you are the exception rather than the rule.
<TheSheep_> but I'm aware I'm not exactly the target audience
<yharrow> and even when it is shiny its only when its in the sun
<troy_s> yharrow: That is a cultural and temporal trend.
<TheSheep_> it's hard to design for someone else
<yharrow> what they did is dump too  much of a good thing on the desktop
<troy_s> yharrow: If you look to history, you will quickly see that not all things that were shiny were considered 'new'
<troy_s> Again, if you have a team that has some experience with these notions, you are on stronger footing.
<troy_s> Education matters in this respect...
<TheSheep_> clothes/leather is shiny when old
<yharrow> troy_s, perhaps then shiny symbolized wealth
<yharrow> troy_s, gold, silver, jewels or power. swords
<troy_s> You need to be aware that _all_ design trends are 1) Culturally specific, 2) Temporal in nature (what goes around comes around)
<troy_s> and more importantly, art and design is often reactionary.
<yharrow> my point is that shiny things instill a certain feeling in people
<TheSheep_> oooh, shiny!
<yharrow> and too much of that feeling is bad
<troy_s> meaning that an artistic movement will often result as a direct 'reaction' against a trend.
<yharrow> troy_s, would you agree though that there are rules that always apply to how people perceive things
<TheSheep_> troy_s: having a desktop that contrasts with the design of my monitor screen, keyboard, mouse, box, etc. is not exactly nice...
<yharrow> TheSheep_, thats a good point as well
<yharrow> TheSheep_, mac understood that very well
<TheSheep_> yharrow: well, they can control the whole hting
<TheSheep_> thing
<yharrow> TheSheep_, and beleive it or not i think some pcs were modeled after the design of windows
<TheSheep_> yharrow: you can see how the design of pcs changes with the release of win98 or xp :)
<troy_s> TheSheep_: Bingo on that contrast element :)
<troy_s> yharrow: The Apple design team looks at the device in the CONTEXT of the user's life.
<TheSheep_> fortunately the modern lcd screens are rather minimalistic
<yharrow> troy_s,  I'd have to agree. I think that has somehting to do with their realistic looking icons
<TheSheep_> ha
<TheSheep_> :)
<TheSheep_> yharrow: it's more than looks -- they are making the objects represented by icons work in similar way that the real ones
<TheSheep_> do
<yharrow> TheSheep_, can you give me an example?
<TheSheep_> yharrow: the oldest, more frequently quoted one: trash ;)
<TheSheep_> yharrow: although dragging a device to trash to unmount it is arcane
<TheSheep_> yharrow: but there is more -- bundles
<TheSheep_> yharrow: music player with interface similar to ipod's
<TheSheep_> yharrow: some small thingies that "just work"
<TheSheep_> yharrow: I'm not really very familar with macs -- so it's all "third hand"
<yharrow> hmm
<yharrow> so you think that macintosh applies industrial design to software interfaces?
<yharrow> TheSheep_,
<yharrow> <<
<TheSheep_> yharrow: industrial?
<yharrow> yes.
<yharrow> what i mean
<yharrow> is that when someone designs a media player, or a chair or a table or anything
<yharrow> they use certain design techniques
<yharrow> If im not mistaken the process that is used to design these things is called industrial design
<TheSheep_> yharrow: they surely have try all the techniques they can :)
<TheSheep_> yharrow: I'm sorry, gotta go, talk to you guys later
<yharrow> TheSheep_: alright ttyl man
<troy_s> See ya TheSheep_
<newz2000> http://www.ubuntu.com/
<troy_s> Nice newz2000 it happened. ;)
<troy_s> Although the aesthetic choice to put a crusty old fecker in a polyester suit as the FIRST thing that someone sees
<troy_s> suffers from vastly shoddy optics.
<troy_s> s/suit/shirt
<newz2000> that part changes from time to time... you should have seen the picture they *wanted* there.
<troy_s> Fecking idiots.
<newz2000> Some guy pointing at his crotch. :-)
<troy_s> WTF are you thinking?
<troy_s> It really is a poor choice, but symptomatic of the greater problems.
<newz2000> we got that picture off the oreily conf page for ubuntu live
<troy_s> It just reeks of more poor optic Microsoft communication.
<troy_s> Not horribly personable
<troy_s> If you sort of follow me.
* newz2000 overwhelmed with sudden burst of feedback
<troy_s> Is there?
<troy_s> lol
<troy_s> How long have you been cooking the new site newz2000 ?
<newz2000> 3 months or so
<troy_s> Wow.
<troy_s> Where is the next UDS?
<troy_s> Do you know?
<newz2000> Spain
<troy_s> I suppose it is a fitting picture in the greater scheme of things though :)
<troy_s> newz2000: Do you have anything else on your plate at the moment?
<newz2000> yeah, a few things
<troy_s> Anything interesting?
<newz2000> gotta wait a few minutes, still riding the flood :-)
<troy_s> Oh are you actually getting pounded with mail?
<newz2000> irc
<yharrow> newz2000: o wow have i got some feedback for you
<yharrow> newz2000: seriously though I like it
<newz2000> keep it coming, I'll get it all.
<yharrow> hehe
<yharrow> troy_s: im actually abit clueless to what newz2000 is working on. care to fill me in?
<troy_s> Pretty sure he can fill you in.  For the moment, he got that website into the mainline.
<yharrow> **jaw drops
<yharrow> did you see the new website?
<yharrow> much better than before
<yharrow> !
<troy_s> Although it seems the text design is fighting with itself.
<yharrow> troy_s: which text design? the ubuntu live part?
<troy_s> The overally layout is conflicting with itself on a number of levels...
<troy_s> For example, when you load the page initially
<troy_s> have a look to where your eye is drawn to
<troy_s> and where it 'tries' to go
<troy_s> solid design layout 'steers' your eyes across a page
<troy_s> note that when you first view the page
<troy_s> your eye doesn't exactly 'know' where to go for the next bit of reading.
<troy_s> for example, I see four general large bodies of text -- upper right, lower left, middle, and lower right
<troy_s> none of which are guided by the design to give me cues on what to read next -- order of importance etc.
<yharrow> when i look it at it i view in this order... ubuntu live, download now, latest news what is ubuntu
<troy_s> Clockwise?
<yharrow> yeah
<troy_s> Yeah, what size is your browser open to?
<troy_s> Mine is set at about 1000 pixels.
<yharrow> 1024x768
<yharrow> server edition icon stands out too
<troy_s> I am by no way an expert in layout, but I do have enough insight to spot a few issues.
<yharrow> meant desktop edtion
<yharrow> yeah
<troy_s> It tries to be three columns, but the flow is corrupted a little
<troy_s> Compare it to say :
<troy_s> www.apple.com
<troy_s> ;)
<troy_s> Not that I like apple, but their designers are top notch and well educated.
<troy_s> You will see what I mean
<yharrow> it does look jumbled
<yharrow> no argument there
<troy_s> Do you see the current www.apple.com site?
<yharrow> troy_s: im gonna look now
<troy_s> Yeah have a peek :)
<troy_s> Notice how you are 'steered' in ONE direction only.
<troy_s> (aside from the usual 'informational tabs at the top)
<yharrow> troy_s: it looks like the main ubuntu site has 3 or 4 designs goingon at the same time
<troy_s> Compare with www.ubuntu.com and you have no clue what to click, etc.
<troy_s> No steering going on.
<troy_s> It lacks visual literacy
<troy_s> Huw wilkins, the fellow who designed the ubuntu evolve effort last cycle
<troy_s> did this page which is quite exemplary (a good proof that we have people in our crowd who can design)
<troy_s> http://twistedmatrix.com/trac/
<troy_s> better flow
<yharrow> troy_s: when i first look at the site, i see the ubunu live logo, I have no idea what it is and its not the reason i visited so iskip it, I then see download now. but I have no idea why i should download and i may not even no what i would be downloading
<troy_s> Yes, I think that is a more apt description.
<troy_s> And at no point is your 'average' joe or joesephine even made aware what Ubuntu is.
<yharrow> i then am conflicted between the right menu and the main section .  i read the menu because of its background but it doesnt contain any real info
<yharrow> so i quickly skip to the main section
<troy_s> Remember too, that when your primary source of contact with Ubuntu is via a webpage, you will 'carry' your experiences into the installation procedure etc...
<troy_s> http://www.apple.com/iphone/
<yharrow> but while im reading the main section i am distracted by the right sidebar
<troy_s> compare the 'flow' of that page
<troy_s> notice how you are clearly given TWO choices, and both are engaged in sequence?
<yharrow> i meant the left
<yharrow> sidebar
<troy_s> Nothing fights for attention
<troy_s> The picture clearly pulls the gravity, you absorb it until you are done, then you read.
<troy_s> Again, it has solid layout theory behind it.
<troy_s> World class newspapers have people who are experts in that sort of thing.
<troy_s> Steering the eye.
<troy_s> I guess your point about relevant information is quite valid too...
<troy_s> yharrow: Did you ever see IBM's spots for Linux?
<troy_s> They are very well done (it comes to mind as I just viewed the 'hello' spot for the iphone)
<yharrow> in every design your eyes go in one direction first. the more differnt the most prominent object on the page the less confusion
<yharrow> does that make sense?
<troy_s> well, subject to RTL tendencies :)
<troy_s> but yes... things have 'gravity' we learn.
<troy_s> your eye is obviously pulled to a number of aspects... sometimes it is size
<yharrow> *has never learned design ;)
<troy_s> sometimes it is lack of size
<troy_s> etc.
<yharrow> *hence my ineptitude
<troy_s> it ultimately depends on the layout, and the creativity of a designer can easily break 'rules' that people want to lay down.
<troy_s> If you are willing to acknowledge that all of your responses are learned, they are all valid.
<troy_s> But you need to analyze what is pulling your mind in a given direction and fundamentally acknowledge that there is a rather complicated bit of thinking going on to arrive you at a point.
<troy_s> Often asking questions as to what is 'not' happening in a given piece can help too.
<troy_s> It boils down to what is called 'reading' art
<troy_s> or 'reading' a film
<troy_s> etc.
<yharrow>  im taking this all in . one sec.
<yharrow> :)
<yharrow> what do you mean by willing to acknowledge that reponses are valid?
<troy_s> Well when people flog launchpad with useless dribbles like 'its ugly' or 'its not professional'
<troy_s> they are making bold sweeping statements with the appearance of 'fact'
<yharrow> ok
<troy_s> I tend to try and cite exactly what it is that is being communicated, or lacking, and why.
<troy_s> There are things that can 'work' and 'not work' but again, that is subject largely to the cultural and temporal aspects -- in layman's terms 'what the hell is going on in the world here and now'
<troy_s> for example
<yharrow> when you said " If you are willing to acknowledge that all of your responses are learned, they are all valid." what was that in response to or what was it reffering to?
<troy_s> oh.
<troy_s> You said that you were inept...
<yharrow> ah ok. got it ;)
<troy_s> I was offering that all of your responses are quite legitimate if you can appreciate that they are influenced by a very complicated set of factors.
<troy_s> Largely centred around who you are and what you have learned.
<yharrow> so what you are saying is that simply because i have not read a book on design my responses may still be valid on account of real life experiences and natural perceptions?
<troy_s> Absolutely.
<yharrow> ok
<yharrow> thanks man
<yharrow> :)
<troy_s> If you can at least struggle to figure out exactly what it is that is triggering the effects.
<yharrow> troy_s: well I wouldnt call it  a struggle but a search definitely.
<troy_s> Everyone's responses are valid, but phrased as 'its ugly', 'it isn't professional', etc., is a rather useless end point.
<yharrow> I agree
<yharrow> however
<troy_s> yeah... it just takes the willingness to acknowledge that things aren't quite as simple as many would have you believe.
<yharrow> collectively they matter ;)
<yharrow> if you take a poll of whether something is ugly or not
<yharrow> then end result says something
<troy_s> Polls might might now
<troy_s> not
<troy_s> if you look historically at artwork
<troy_s> and movements
<troy_s> many trends that became "sheik"
<troy_s> started out as heavily criticized and dismissed works
<yharrow> you have a good point
<troy_s> In more current terms, look to a film like "Blade Runner"
<troy_s> It was a box office bomb
<troy_s> completely panned and reviewed into the dirt
<troy_s> And now, in hindsight, it is considered a seminal piece of science fiction film work.
<troy_s> Same thing goes for 2001 (there is actually a very funny book with letters to Kubrick regarding how detested that film was)
<troy_s> Being shiek involves a certain degree of 'difference' from the pack, and that involves risk.
<troy_s> Apple is probably the best example --  they only control 4% of the desktop market.  They are sheik in terms of underdog status etc.
<yharrow> I agree with your saying. who then defines what is good design, and how is it possible that the human psyche can change so drastically in its decsion of what looks good?
<troy_s> Bingo
<troy_s> Who is relative to the culture and time.
<troy_s> What some would call the 'piece in context'
<troy_s> for example,
<troy_s> if you look back to germany during the war
<yharrow> is not culture a form of art or is not made up of art?
<yharrow> or does art simply reflect peoples environment?
<yharrow> and habit
<troy_s> and you look at the master designer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leni_Riefenstahl work
<troy_s> you will see how she embodied what the 'currents' were trying to communicate in her work
<troy_s> art/design/etc. is nothing more than communication.
<troy_s> Simply a language like everything else.
<troy_s> That said, by noting that, you can clearly see how flawed some approaches to it are -- you don't sit down and try to 'greet' someone without knowing who/what it is, what language they speak, what they consider through the subtle connotations (formal "vous" versus informal for example)
<yharrow> and just as language evolves so does art?
<troy_s> Indeed.
<troy_s> As anyone who takes even a simple 2 second exploration of art would be able to tell you.
<troy_s> Art has a very massive body of history
<troy_s> Have you see El Lissitzky's red wedge?
<yharrow> and just as there are many languages there are many approaches to art... all valid?
<troy_s> Of course.
<troy_s> But don't take my word for it...
<troy_s> ;)
<troy_s> Art and Design communicates.
<yharrow> troy_s: no im afraid i have not. mebbe theres an online picture
<yharrow> ill look it up
<troy_s> If you need more proof of which, you should check this out:
<troy_s> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_avant-garde
<troy_s> El Lissitzky is still considered a critical figure in layout and design
<troy_s> As you will probably be able to tell from looking at that red wedge sample
<yharrow> troy_s: is it possible that jsut as there is a main language that much of the world speaks (english) there is a main form of design that appeals to an extremely large poplulation?
<troy_s> (not exactly alien to what we seek to do with ubuntu i might add)
<troy_s> yharrow: Absolutely.
<troy_s> yharrow: "mainstream" one could call it...
<troy_s> but again, that shifts ever rapidly and changes.
<troy_s> one could argue that 'followers' are frowned upon when it comes to the sheik / cool factor (just look at how the Zune faired against the iPod)
<troy_s> it is a rather common thing that it seems smaller factions that touch on SOMETHING tend to get that 'cool factor' -- think of Punk Rock in the era of Disco, or Grunge in the era of Hair Bands, etc.
<troy_s> yharrow: You could do worse than to learn about El Lissitzky however :)
<troy_s> brilliant mind.
<yharrow> i think the issue with following in design is that the followers are attempting to duplicate the original without having the initial insight and inspiration that went into creating the "original"
<troy_s> bingo!
<yharrow> :)
<troy_s> And also note
<troy_s> how problematic it probably was for the 'original' artist in the context
<yharrow> *wonders if he might benefit from a class in design
<troy_s> Andy Warhol comes to mind when he was presenting found art as
<kwwii> re
<troy_s> art
<troy_s> (campbell's soup can probably the most highly recognized, but there are hundreds of others)
<troy_s> yharrow:  I would encourage it if you are at all interested in practising or studying art/design.
<yharrow> troy_s: my initial reluctance to investing time in art design is concern that for the majority of people the field is far from lucrative
<troy_s> Indeed.
<troy_s> But you will find that the bulk of the people who achieve a great level of discipline within the field have all pursued it regardless.
<troy_s> yharrow: Ultimately a solidly researched and thought out approach won't assure you any more success in the effort, but I can say beyond a shadow of a doubt that
<troy_s> without such an approach,
<troy_s> no design / work / art will attain accoladed stature without such a process.
<yharrow> that makes alot of sense
<troy_s> and if you don't believe me, simply do a little research into the history of work, pick up a reference book, etc.
<yharrow> I think it boils down to do you or do you not want to design. if you do, then regardless of your fears of investing time to learn, you will likely get nowhere unless you do
<yharrow> does that make sense?
<troy_s> And that doesn't even begin to touch on what you stand to learn from the history of others.
<troy_s> Little things like... Phi for example :)
<kwwii> Seveas: ping? I added this channel to https://help.ubuntu.com/community/InternetRelayChat
<kwwii> Seveas: and put you as contact person
<Seveas> kwwii, aren't you artwork lead? THat's make you contact person :)
<yharrow> *has never heard of phi :)
<yharrow> is that the same thing as pi?
<yharrow> :)
<yharrow> jk
<yharrow> ill go look it up
<troy_s> yharrow phi is the most important number in all of classical composition
<troy_s> if you want to learn the most about western / european art, learn that number.
<yharrow> troy_s: ok.. I'll look it to it
<yharrow> troy_s: what is your opinion of the master/disciple vs  teacher&textbook/student methods of learning
<troy_s> Lol
<troy_s> What I would say is start doing a little research into the popular works you like.
<troy_s> To keep your options open, try to find say, one photographer / filmmaker, one classical artist (oil / pastel/ charcoal) etc.,
<yharrow> research into method?
<troy_s> if you look to wider disciplines you can often find overlaps that steer you in a good direction to answer your question.
<troy_s> not so much method... maybe just start out simple -- 'what you like or don't'
<troy_s> and figure out who does what
<troy_s> for example
<troy_s> when i was growing up,
<troy_s> i found several music videos that i thought were exemplary in their form
<troy_s> it turned out that they were all created by the same fellow
<troy_s> and hence, they had a massive influence on my aesthetic/style.
<troy_s> at the time though, i had no clue who they were by as they were created in an era where the directors of photography were never listed.
<troy_s> You will also find that if you examine most current 'trends' they often start 'off the beaten path' in avant garde artists etc.
<yharrow> wow, I see what you ean
<yharrow> mean
<troy_s> For example
<troy_s> the heavily accoladed "Saving Private Ryan" is nothing more than
<troy_s> redoing what Robert Capa did many many many years ago.
<troy_s> (I hate to use SPR as an example as it is horribly mainstream and dull, but I am pretty sure you have heard of it.)
<troy_s> http://expositions.bnf.fr/capa/images/3/148.jpg
<troy_s> look familiar ? ;)
<troy_s> Now some would say that 'well that is just 'war footage''
<troy_s> but that isn't the case
<kwwii> Seveas: yeah, but I cannot do anything about this channel, as I have no op bits
<troy_s> Robert Capa was so effective in his delivery that he basically defined the bloody genre.
<troy_s> kwwii Yes you do
<yharrow> if art evolves is it possible to create work which is not based off of something else? Are there several styles that once "discovered" can only be elaborated upon.
<Seveas> you have
<kwwii> troy_s: really? cool!
<troy_s> kwwii yes...
<troy_s> private message chanserv
<troy_s> with '/msg chanserv op #ubuntu-artwork'
<troy_s> and poof
<troy_s> erk
<yharrow> :)
<kwwii> great, then I will put my name there
<troy_s> i think you need the username in there too.
<Seveas> troy_s, not if you want to op yourself
<troy_s> yharrow: That's way too tough to answer I think.   Styles are often
<troy_s> erm... perhaps not often, _sometimes_ being developed in conjunction across several different veins.
<troy_s> you will often find similar trends in many different disciplines... for example architecture, traditional painting, automobile design, etc.
<troy_s> by the way, that capa picture i showed you
<yharrow> troy_s: way too tough meaning it is a philosphical question with no real way to research it, or too tough meaning a valuable question without enough data to answer it
<troy_s> might seem pretty 'blah' to you now, but bear in mind that when he was shooting that sort of thing it wasn't exactly 'common' to have a blurry photo ;)
<troy_s> yharrow: Yeah.  All you really have is the past, what is going on now, and a very limited set of individuals who are brewing tomorrow.
<yharrow> troy_s: i would ask further if there is less completely original ideas now then in the past but I am not sure how philosophical you want to get ;)
<troy_s> Also, you will find that those stand out folks in the crowd (the Capa's, the Mahurin's, the Da Vinci's, etc.) all treated the craft with a very very very serious approach.
<troy_s> yharrow: Which is probably why you might want to study it.  You can spend hours thinking about that.
<troy_s> Many famous artists have quoted in both directions on that...
<troy_s> "This museum is a torpedo moving through time, its head the ever-advancing present, its tail the ever-receding past of 50 to 100 years ago."
<troy_s> "Without tradition, art is a flock of sheep without a shepherd. Without innovation, it is a corpse."
<troy_s> no end of good quotes out there ;)
<yharrow> troy_s: well Im gonna go get something to eat , I greatly enjoyed our  conversation :). I think I should probably start investing more time in studying and less time in speculating
<troy_s> You might save yourself a lot of time
<yharrow> hehe
<yharrow> yeah
<yharrow> tahts what im thinking ;)
<troy_s> again, through using work that others have already done.
<troy_s> also, there are many tried and true methods for thinking about things
<troy_s> that can lend concrete results.
<troy_s> you can generally 'track' where something is coming from
<troy_s> much the same way that words have ancestry
<yharrow> yep all things boil down to organization and effective management of resources in my opinion
<yharrow> why duplicate if you can integrate
<troy_s> What I can guarantee you is that much of what you 'think' you know about art / design / etc.
<troy_s> is more complicated and possibly more 'planned' than you initially expected
<troy_s> you can get a sense of that by looking at Leni's work for example
<yharrow> well, Im fairly certain that even the most abstract pieces are much more than merely splotches of color thrown together.
<yharrow> Ive always had that feeling
<troy_s> Well exactly.  There is a large body of work that led up to abstract impressionism
<troy_s> it was a response,
<troy_s> that harkens back to the fact that the 'movements' are reactionary
<troy_s> warhol's work isn't just a bloody found soupcan
<troy_s> it is a reaction to the times
<troy_s> as was dali's etc.  so when you head into impressionism
<troy_s> it too is a reaction against certain trends.
<troy_s> i guess to apply it to computer design and such, you might see a reaction to 'gloss'
<troy_s> The best 'buy in' in this case is Vista -- the complete gaudy over do of gloss and plastic
<troy_s> The awful 'web 2.0' abortion
<troy_s> etc.
<yharrow> I think that understanding abstract and impressionism requires knowledge of the culture in which it was created
<troy_s> Absolutely.  "Art in context".
<troy_s> You can't look at the folder file analogy without looking at Xerox's mentality at the time.
<yharrow> what would that analogy be?
<troy_s> Here is a good quote:
<troy_s> Art produces ugly things which frequently become beautiful with time.
<yharrow> and im assuming you are reffering tothe xerox operating system
<troy_s> The file / folder came out of Xerox's brainpool
<troy_s> IIRC it was the Xerox Star
<troy_s> circa 1980 - 81?
<yharrow> troy_s: wow man I just realized weve been talking for more than one full hour :)
<troy_s> it happens
<yharrow> I was that involved in the conversation
<yharrow> I enjoy speaking with you though
<troy_s> yes it was a nice chat
<yharrow> do you hang out on irc often?
<troy_s> there are other folks out there who are quite interested in this sort of thing... i don't know how many frequent irc -- more and more i suppose.
<troy_s> yes... i keep my connection 24/7
<troy_s> unless something bogs it.
<yharrow> same, here, I run a channel and I like to keep it logged
<troy_s> this is logged too
<yharrow> i could use a bot. but I like to be there
<yharrow> and combined with the alert on nick say feature its a good way for people to reach me without calling
<yharrow> they just ping
<yharrow> and i appear
<yharrow> :)
<yharrow> troy_s: do you have a wiki page on ubuntus site?
<troy_s> uh for what?
<yharrow> troy_s: like a profiel page
<troy_s> I don't really have a profile page anywhere... the closest to it is probably that blog page sidebar.
<troy_s> Unfortunately, I go through flits of busy versus non busy and I have to dedicate much of my time to several different things.
<troy_s> Which prevents me from dedicating the amount of time that is required to certain things.
<yharrow> troy_s: I have a similar situation here so I understand where you are coming from..
<yharrow> prioritizing
<yharrow> I tend to prioritize alot, its part of life
<troy_s> Yes.  Not quite enough time in the day.  Especially when you end up chatting for a chunk of it ;)
<yharrow> hehe
<yharrow> yeah
<yharrow> ;)
<yharrow> alright man, Ill see you around then :)
<troy_s> take care friend.
<yharrow> thank you
<yharrow> take care as well
<yharrow> later :)
<yharrow> troy_s: you run ubun2design?
<troy_s> if / when i have time, yes i suppose you could say that.
<yharrow> troy_s: is it possible to join the team. Is there any sort of equivilant of a team or is this a private project?
<troy_s> yharrow I see you are a beta tester of the new launchpad... is it quite different?
<yharrow> you read my mind, i was about to ask you if you were a beta tester too
<yharrow> troy_s: yeah the design is quite different
<troy_s> No I just got redirected there.
<troy_s> But, I can't use it as I am not registered as a tester...
<troy_s> (oops)
<troy_s> Do you know how to use bzr?
<yharrow> nah, unfortunately not
<troy_s> It's pretty simple.
<yharrow> troy_s: btw if you want to you can become one, all you need  to do is promise not to post screenshots in an email to them
<troy_s> Lol
<bersace> hi all
<bersace> kwwii: nice work on gtkrc
<bersace> i like the less sharp orange
<bersace> especially for progress bar
<bersace> it blends very well with your background
<bersace> kwwii: did you upload new gdm theme ? or are you still working on it
<bersace> i guess that splash is at higher priority for now
<yharrow> i meant to say. all you need to do is send an email to them promising not to post screenshots
<bersace> bug 1 !
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 1 in ichthux "Microsoft has a majority market share" [Critical,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/1
<bersace> ichtux ? WTF !
<bersace> bug 1 000 000 ?
<bersace> bug 1000000
<troy_s> i suspect ichthux is the beta?
<bersace> nooooo !
<bersace> ichtux is ubuntu christian edition :D
<troy_s> LLLOooooool
<bersace> ;)
<troy_s> prefect
<troy_s> well that is a bug
<troy_s> ichthux is merely registerd as the first
<troy_s> so it is defaulting in the parsing.
<troy_s> ubugtu is probably just grabbing that first 'affects' line
<bersace> bug ubugtu
<bersace> :|
<troy_s> methinks
<nysosym> good evening :)
<nysosym> kwwii: all your work completed? :)
<kwwii> nysosym: yepp, in a meeting now though, be back in half an hour or so
<nysosym> kwwii: ok, have fun :)
<nysosym> kwwii: and congratulation ;)
<nysosym> hi andreasn :)
<andreasn> hey
<nysosym> andreasn: how are u? :)
<nysosym> re :)
<andreasn> nysosym: I'm great
<andreasn> happy that 2.18 is out
<andreasn> how about you?
<nysosym> i have started to learn C, but my first application is a Euro converter :D
<andreasn> cool
<nysosym> hehe ;D
<yharrow> hey nysosym
<yharrow> hows it going
<nysosym> yharrow, always fine, a little bit sleepy but fine :D
<yharrow> nysosym: cool. i was just looking at the ubun2design design team
<yharrow> nysosym: looks pretty cool
<nysosym> yharrow, yes i will made a new GTK Theme, but i have lost my last work on it. Because i had a HDD crash...
<nysosym> otherwise the progress of ubun2design is a little bit slowly
<yharrow> nysosym: ouch thats messed up. I just joined the team btw
<yharrow> nysosym: if there is something you think that i can do please let me know
<yharrow> it will be pretty cool when you get around to making the theme though
<nysosym> have a look on the wiki of ubun2design, there i a lot of work for Design mockups, metacity, icons etc.
<nysosym> yharrow, do what u can do and present it :)
<nysosym> yharrow, but have a look at the ubun2design guidelines :)
<yharrow> ok will do
<yharrow> gonna thoroughly look through the wiki now
<yharrow> i only glanced over it before
<nysosym> yes fell free to comment the stuff in the wiki ;)
<yharrow> ok cool :)
<yharrow> nysosym: do you have screenshots using the theme?
<nysosym> yharrow, that's my problem, i have lost everything about the theme :-/
<yharrow> nysosym: everything? what about bzr?
<nysosym> yharrow, hmm my goal was to release a far completed version of my theme...
<yharrow> how much does hard drive recovery cost?
<yharrow> or is it beyond repair?
<nysosym> that's the result
<yharrow> nysosym: do you still have the drive?
<nysosym> yharrow, this will cost to much, but i have to start working yet :)
<nysosym> yharrow, yes i have, the problem was more an backup issue...
<yharrow> do you think the data is worth $400USD?
<nysosym> yharrow, no ^
<nysosym> yharrow, it's possible to make something new ;)
<yharrow> o well than. was worth a thought
<nysosym> and there isn't a timebreak to complete all :)
<yharrow> you are right
<yharrow> :)
<yharrow> perhaps the new theme will be even better
<nysosym> i think so :)
<yharrow> Im installing and trying to download the bzr for U2 right now
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-03-16
<nysosym> i will go to bed now, have a good night my friends! :)
<benzi> hello
<benzi> anybody out there
<nysosym> good morning :)
<nysosym> kwwii, the new session splash looks very sexy :)
<lapo> hi there
<nysosym> re :)
<kwwii> nysosym: thanks :-)
<nysosym> kwwii: now do you worked again on oxygen?
<kwwii> nysosym: I try to do as much stuff for oxygen in my spare time, so once feisty is over, yeah, I'll probably be doing a bit more
<bersace> Hi all
<nysosym> Hi bersace
<nysosym> kwwii: amazing KDE logo! http://oxygen-icons.org/users/david/
<kwwii> nysosym: yeah, I like that one
<bersace> kwwii: i relog just to test your new splash ;)
<bersace> kwwii: so nice !
<bersace> you got it
<bersace> very nice on the background color
<bersace> i wonder if the horizontal line worth it
<kwwii> bersace: thanks :-)
<bersace> about GDM
<bersace> you missed to update the screenshots
<kwwii> yeah, I was wondering about that too...might remove it later
<bersace> not a problem
<kwwii> bersace: oops, I'll take care of that asap
<bersace> kwwii: do you plan to update gdm theme ?
<kwwii> bersace: I am still working on a new background pic, but mainly I think it will stay as it is now
<bersace> ok
<kwwii> I want to remove some of the pink tone
<kwwii> I'm working on the wallpaper now
<kwwii> desktop wallpaper, that is
<bersace> good
<bersace> kwwii: do you think i should register a bzr branch for feisty-gdm-theme to contribute ?
<bersace> like explained in troy_s howto
<bersace> troy_s: where is that howto ?
<bersace> i guess https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BzrContributorHowto
<bersace> kwwii: there is no autoconf nor automake file in the branch :(
<kwwii> yeah, we moved to the python utils
<kwwii> makes things much easier
<kwwii> no more adding names to makefiles, etc.
<kwwii> bersace: it would be great if you made a branch :-)
<bersace> i'm trying to publish my branch
<bersace> how to create a branch on ~bersace ?
<bersace> i have to register a branch ?
<bersace> ok, i got it
* kwwii has to take his son to basketball practice...bbl
<bersace> kwwii:  https://launchpad.net/feisty-gdm-themes/+branches
<bersace> ;)
<bersace> kwwii: why is there .in but no .ac nor .am ?
<nysosym> bersace: kwwii is away ;)
<nysosym> kwwii has to take his son to basketball practice...bbl
<bersace> oops
<bersace> right
<troy_s> bersace:  wiki.ubuntu.com/Bzr
<bersace> troy_s: i got it
<bersace> thx
<troy_s> http://digitalfury.popmartian.com/images/20070202/paranoia.jpg
<troy_s> hilarious
<joejaxx> :0
<joejaxx> :)  *
<nysosym> troy_s: the graphic is nice :D
<VeganChick> I can't seem to compile the Murrine engine.
<VeganChick> Can someone help me?
<nysosym> re :)
<troy_s> VeganChick: There are countless debs available.
<troy_s> VeganChick: If you insist on compiling, what error are you getting?
<VeganChick> Sorry troy, I was in effects.
<VeganChick> they found me a deb
<VeganChick> I didn't know it even existed :\
<troy_s> Damn you
<troy_s> VeganChick: If you do get errors
<troy_s> It is generally easier for people to diagnose if you provide the LAST compiler error
<troy_s> :)
<troy_s> As opposed to "help me, I'm drowning" :)
<yharrow> yay, a vegan chick
<VeganChick> I thought this channel was dead.
<VeganChick> lol
<yharrow> *loves vegan chicks
<VeganChick> haha
<VeganChick> I used a murrine theme, but it still looks too blocky and...ick.
<yharrow> :)
<yharrow> VeganChick: you use ubuntu much?
<VeganChick> Nope, just started.
<yharrow> VeganChick: cool. welcome to the community :)
<VeganChick> thanks, yharrow
<yharrow> VeganChick: your welcome. So youre an artist?
<VeganChick> Not really, just used to pretty OS X.
<yharrow> :) I see what you mean. so youre trying to get murrine installed?
<VeganChick> I have it installed now, and I'm using the Candy theme, but it doesn't look so hot.
<yharrow> VeganChick: hmm if you want you can get a theme almost identical to mac
<yharrow> would you be interested?
<VeganChick> Hmm, I've seen that. I'm not sure.
<VeganChick> I would love to just change everything from scratch, but I don't think there's a way to do that.
<yharrow> VeganChick: what do you mean by change everything from scratch?
<VeganChick> like design all of the buttons, tabs, panels
<yharrow> VeganChick: its perfectly possible :)
<yharrow> VeganChick: if you have the time and knowledge
<yharrow> VeganChick: even if you dont have the knowlege you can learn
<VeganChick> I don't know where to start.
<VeganChick> because I definitely don't have the knowledge now
<yharrow> VeganChick: hmm. well are you just looking for something different or do you actually want to create something revolutionary?
<yharrow> :)
<VeganChick> haha
<VeganChick> I would love revolutionary, but something different would be ok too.
<yharrow> do you have any experience in design of any kind?
<VeganChick> Not desktop styles.
<VeganChick> I've worked with Photoshop
<VeganChick> There's a web/graphic design geek in the house, but he doesn't use linux
<yharrow> VeganChick: so you make a living in design?
<VeganChick> No, I'm just a student.
<yharrow> VeganChick: oh ok cool :)
<yharrow> *is a student as well
<yharrow> IM only 20 lol
<VeganChick> Hah, I'm not a design student. And I'm younger than you, don't feel bad.
<VeganChick> :P
<yharrow> hehe
<yharrow> VeganChick: well there is this guy from ubuntu who is trying to create his own revolutionary design, Ill give you a link so you can take a look
<VeganChick> ok thanks
<TheSheep_> VeganChick: you can change the roundness of buttons and other widgets in murrine easily
<VeganChick> TheSheep_: I know, I used the Configurator, but it didn't make me happy.
<VeganChick> thanks though
* TheSheep_ forgot about the ocnfigurator
<TheSheep_> never used it :)
<VeganChick> it's pretty good, but I just don't like the default linux design
<TheSheep_> if you mean the general layout of controls in programs, then you're out of luck -- it's pretty much hardcoded
<VeganChick> I can't figure out how to install this theme.
<VeganChick> http://www.robertourso.com/?cat=3
<TheSheep_> usually you just unpack it itno .themes directory
* TheSheep_ looks
<VeganChick> "Truth" halfway down
<troy_s> murrine is turk
<troy_s> You can change everything using the Pixbuf engine
<TheSheep_> troy_s: pixbuf is slooow :)
<troy_s> and then once you decide on a direction, consider the Lua engine to script it.
<troy_s> TheSheep_: That is a legacy comment
<TheSheep_> troy_s: of course
<troy_s> TheSheep_: It is actually quite bloody responsive now.  In fact, the era of "slow" pixmap engine is from... god knows when
<VeganChick> where do i find this engine?
<PWill> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-website/+bug/89035
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 89035 in ubuntu-website "CoF icon clash frontpage (new site)" [Undecided,Confirmed] 
<troy_s> VeganChick: To install a theme
<troy_s> open up your graphical theme editor
<troy_s> and drag the FULL gzipped tarball into the window
<troy_s> Don't extract -- just drag.
<TheSheep_> troy_s: that's a zip :)
<VeganChick> troy: I did that
<VeganChick> but it doesn't look right
<VeganChick> I need the cgwd themer
<VeganChick> but i can't find where to get that
<troy_s> Design your own from using a good template
<troy_s> Its quite simple
<troy_s> albeit a little on the time consumption zone
<PWill> is anyone here on the website team?
<VeganChick> Troy_s: I would do that, but I don't know how to modify anything yet.
<troy_s> VeganChick: It is quite simple once you look at the engine layout
<troy_s> Just look at samples such as Neutronium for the pixbuf engine
<troy_s> etc.
<troy_s> Start by simply modding the png files that come with it then expand from there VeganChick
<troy_s> _everything_ in gnome is customizable to some extent -- including layouts etc.
<troy_s> and most of the gnome philosophy means that it is generally in plaintext format
<TheSheep_> troy_s: well, you won't change the order of buttons to have 'ok' on the left, for example :)
<troy_s> TheSheep_: No, correct.  Although there might be something in there for RTL no?
<TheSheep_> troy_s: no, it's hardcoded
<TheSheep_> troy_s: directly in the C code
<troy_s> Well that is shameful coding.
<TheSheep_> troy_s: of particular apps
<troy_s> Expected, but shameful.
<TheSheep_> that's what GNOEM HIG is for :)
<TheSheep_> GNOME
<troy_s> Why the feck didn't that interface markup language take off?
<TheSheep_> troy_s: glade? it's very popular
<troy_s> No
<troy_s> OIML?
<troy_s> erm... let me look
<TheSheep_> never heard of it
<TheSheep_> that might be part of the reason ;)
<troy_s> uiml
<troy_s> http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/tc_home.php?wg_abbrev=uiml
<troy_s> i guarantee that you will find it interesting
<TheSheep_> thank you sir
<troy_s> I assure you that _you_ will find it quite fascinating.
<troy_s> it generated a 'duh why hasn't someone done this yet' from me for certain
<TheSheep_> uiml.org
<VeganChick> All of the themes I've found only change colors.
<VeganChick> Where do I find the Cgwd themer?
<TheSheep_> VeganChick: the yall use the same engine
<TheSheep_> VeganChick: I think it's included with the compiz?
<troy_s> uiml.org is old TheSheep_
<VeganChick> I guess I don't have compiz then
<troy_s> VeganChick: You can only really change colour with murrine
<troy_s> the stylings are all hard coded (with a few 'changes' you can make via the config file)
<troy_s> SOME looks will use it as a base
<troy_s> and Pixbuf the rest
<troy_s> which means that you need BOTH engines installed to see the results VeganChick
<troy_s> uiml.org moved to that latter link i gave you
<troy_s> in fact, VeganChick there is nothing stopping you from creating a theme based on 100 engines -- your end user will need all engines installed to see the results however.
<VeganChick> haha
<VeganChick> I downloaded the compiz stuff available on the Synaptic Package Manager
<VeganChick> but I still need the cgwd themer to use this theme i like
<troy_s> VeganChick: Most everything can be changed from the command line
<troy_s> VeganChick: I would encourage you to figure out how so you aren't relying on some extra rubbish to confuse you
<troy_s> TheSheep_: Did I mention it is great to have you back in the fold?
<VeganChick> the command "compiz-tray-icon" doesn't work
<TheSheep_> troy_s: thank you
<TheSheep_> troy_s: hm... uiml seems like just another layer of indirection -- the real work are the peers sections
<VeganChick> can anyone help me?
<VeganChick> trying to install compiz, the command "compiz-tray-icon" doesn't work
<TheSheep_> VeganChick: I don't know, but the guys at #compiz or ubuntu-glx (or was it xgl?) will surely know
<VeganChick> there's a channel for everything...
<VeganChick> haha
<TheSheep_> especially on freenode :)
<troy_s> TheSheep_: Yeah I don't know about the actual implementation, but the ideas behind it are good.
<troy_s> TheSheep_: It seems to be a working model of a much needed descriptor
<TheSheep_> troy_s: you know why the split html/css works so good?
<TheSheep_> troy_s: becuse it's usually different people who program the html-spitting part and the layout
<TheSheep_> troy_s: in case of ui the separation is not so obvious
<TheSheep_> (but I tend to agree that it should be)
<h4writer> #ubuntu-feisty
<troy_s> #ubuntu-warty
<h4writer> :p
<troy_s> #ubuntu-hoary ;)
<TheSheep_> #ubuntu-zippy
<h4writer> sorry, I'm not a little bit sleepy and I just typed it. Know it is wrong, but the "enter" was already pushed;-)
<h4writer> zippy?
<TheSheep_> h4writer: out in 22 releases :)
<TheSheep_> zippy zebra, probably ;)
<h4writer> okey
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-03-17
<nysosym> hi there :)
<TheSheep_> hi nysosym
<nysosym> hi TheSheep_ :)
<nysosym> how are u?
<TheSheep_> nysosym: good, thanks. The Spring is over.
<nysosym> TheSheep_: yes i know, that makes me sad :-/
<TheSheep_> nysosym: at least you don't feel compellled to go out and can safely spend all the day in bed ;)
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-03-18
<bersace> kwwii: hi
<bersace> kwwii: you should use the same logo for splash too
<kwwii> bersace: sabdfl wants me to use the official logo
<bersace> ?
<bersace> what is the official logo ?
<bersace> why only on the session splash ?
<kwwii> no idea why, but that is what he wants
<bersace> the one on the stickers ?
<kwwii> yepp, the one with the lozenge behind it
<kwwii> (since it is shown on a darker background)
<bersace> well, i don't see a lozenge behind the stickers i have
<kwwii> lol
<kwwii> well, it could also be the simple logo, but the white thing behind it is imprtant if it is shown on a darker bg
<kwwii> perhaps I could include the normal logo without the white part
<kwwii> haven't tried that yet
<kwwii> when I showed mark the first version (with the 3d logo from gdm) he said definitely not
<bersace> the truth is that the gdm logo does not fit well on that tiny size
<troy_s> more of the same
<nzk> Hey everyone
<troy_s> nzk greets
<vdepizzol> hello
<cla> hello
<troy_s> greets all
<cla> hey troy_s
<cla> you are leader, yes?
<troy_s> uh no
<troy_s> cla what is your question howevr
<troy_s> cla i can probably help you.
<cla> i would like to get involved in artwork for other distro, so i would like to know from more experienced how to start such project
<troy_s> I am pretty certain that you ask a question that _everyone_ would have an 'answer' to.
<troy_s> My personal feeling is that you should probably model your workflow on techniques that are tried and true in the 'other' world :)
<troy_s> Grab a good book and start with that.  Deal with the critical elements out of the gate (concept/audience) etc.
<troy_s> cla:  Does that help?
<cla> i would rahter want to get some ideas
<cla> becouse my artwork is generally wallpapers and/or icons
<troy_s> Ideas pertaining to what?  Concept?  Etc?
<cla> so i would like to know what more can be done
<troy_s> Well again, everyone has their opinions on it.  Personally I would start with the critical two points:
<troy_s> 1) Who are you speaking to communicate with?  Who is your audience?
<troy_s> 2) What do you seek to communicate?
<troy_s> 2 is tricky -- as when you say something like 'cool' or 'blah', you often need to ask further questions as to 'how' to communicate such a loose term.
<troy_s> Pull in some examples from other disciplines that you believe 'speak' close to what you want to communicate and see what techniques / tricks they are using and consider them for your project.
<cla> mhm
<troy_s> cla:  I would strongly recommend a good introductory art and design book if you want to take this sort of thing seriously.
<cla> that's why i came here
<troy_s> cla: Bear in mind that Ubuntu does not do this ;)
<cla> troy_s: well, graphic is my hobby
<troy_s> cla: So read everything I type with caution.
<troy_s> cla: If you want to see what some would consider a decent attempt at such a process, have a look at the newer Fedora work.
<troy_s> It uses the motifs of night and balloons with Diana offering a bit of her communication goals by basing the theme on those two motifs.
<cla> ok
<troy_s> Motifs, to many, are a critical element of design.
<troy_s> They are used in traditional design, film making, sound design, etc.
<cla> brb
<bersace> hi all
<bersace> I would like to have your comments on the response i got for bug 93379
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 93379 in Ubuntu "Luminosity popup is at wrong place" [Undecided,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/93379
* bersace had right used Ubugtu for the first time :D
<alefteris> hi everyone, how can i stroke the page in inkscape? for example make a 1px border inside the page area..
<alefteris> troy_s, hi
<TheSheep_> alefteris: is it a trick question? rectangles generally work fine for that...
<alefteris> thought it could be an easy way to do it :) how can i make a rectancle fit exacly the page area and then stroke the inside by 1px?
<TheSheep_> alefteris: well, I'd use large zoom when adjusting, maybe enable snapping to grid too
<alefteris> thanks TheSheep_
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-03-10
<wasikevin> ping
<xivulon> Hi again,
<xivulon> I was looking into how to make icons off svg
<xivulon> I noticed that the ubuntu.ico file available on the wiki has 9 layers with different size and color depth
<xivulon> is there any tool that grabs an svg and generate a proper icon file?
<_MMA_> You can import the .svg into GIMP and save as .ico. Imagemagik I think can also do it.
<xivulon> _MMA_ kwwii also pointed to that, but that does not seem to create 9 layers unless I am doing something wrong
 * _MMA_ finds most of his errors are user-errors. :P
<kwwii> you cannot create an ico file with 9 layers...also, there is not point to doing so
<_MMA_> kwwii: I don't know about layers but they can contain various sizes and color depths.
<xivulon> my understanding is that windows selects the layer which best matches the system color depth and the required image size
<xivulon> kwwii what image size / color depth should I use instead? 32x32 24bits?
<kwwii> xivulon: ouch, didn't know that
<kwwii> sorry, I appear not to be up to date on my windows icons stuff these days :p
<kwwii> ok, here is a tweaked wallpaper (simplified the bg a bit and changed the throat)
<kwwii> http://sinecera.de/kuti_heron_tweak.png
 * _MMA_ likes the original. Didnt see the need to mess with. Still looks good. :)
<kwwii> _MMA_: you like the one on a simple background?
<_MMA_> I like 'em both but the one with more detail is my fave.
<Dutchy> i just found https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Hardy/Alternate/ThemeTeams and it says there are people needed for theming... now I am 'graphically challenged' so I can't do any theming myself, but is there anything else I can do? give feedback or something?
<_MMA_> Dutchy: Not to be a downer, but I would say no.
<Dutchy> alright :) I had to ask
<Cimi_> kwwii, just for sake of perfection... the scrollbars in alpha 6 have wrong thickness
<kwwii> Cimi_: you mean the trough value I added is too much?
<_MMA_> Cimi_: You do know kwwii in in Germany right? Why do you message him so late? :)
<Cimi_> _MMA_, I'm in italy
<Cimi_> kwwii, you should decrease it
<Cimi_> don't you see it is too thin?
<Cimi_> you can see the trough border on the left/right edges off the slider
<Cimi_> it is ugly :)
<_MMA_> Cimi_: Sure, but you're alot closer in time. Its well after midnight for Ken and he's old. Needs all the beauty sleep he can get. ;)
<cody-somerville> _MMA_, How did the passport application go?
<_MMA_> Application went fine. Im waiting on it to be sent.
<cody-somerville> _MMA_, I should be in receipt of my passport the first week of April
<_MMA_> cool
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-03-11
<mantiena-baltix> hi all
<_MMA_> Hi
<mantiena-baltix> I have one question about appearance of gnome-panel menu (Applications, Places, System) and main-menu applets - it seems both applets uses same icon, but main-menu applet can use wide icons, while menu applet can't.
<mantiena-baltix> Because of this I wanna to use different icons for these applets, but still didn't found a way how to do this :(
<_MMA_> I *think* I've seen this before. But can't remember how to do it. I'll let you know if I find anything.
<mantiena-baltix> _MMA_: thanks
<DanaG> Hmm, can the current version of Murrine do the styles of the Aurora or Nodoka engines?
<_MMA_> DanaG: Cimi has shown it's possible, but I dont know if the code is released.
<_MMA_> I know setting the highlight ratio to something like .9 will give you a similar button look.
<DanaG> Here's a screenshot of my current theme: www.csc.calpoly.edu/~dgoyette/screenshot-orange-nodoka.png   (and if you look at screenshot.png instead, that's Aurora.)
<_MMA_> Fun.
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-03-12
<kwwii> tell me which middle window part is the best:
<kwwii> http://sinecera.de/gdm_tweak.png
<artnay> the middle one I guess
<artnay> will gdm have "face browser" by default?
<kwwii> nope, that was pushed back to hardy+1
<artnay> oh, ok. why?
<andreasn> gdm 2.22 (not 2.20 that will be used for hardy) comes with face browser by default if I recall correctly
<kwwii> because it is a major code change (we are going to do a 3D compiz based one
<artnay> andreasn: why's 2.20 being used in hardy? http://live.gnome.org/RoadMap - Improvements on the default look of GDM
<artnay> do those improvements include some sort of tweaking to face browser code?
<andreasn> artnay: they rewrote the whole thing and it wasn't ready in time for gnome 2.22
<artnay> didn't know that, thanks for the info
<andreasn> so it was decided by the gnome release team to use gdm 2.20
<Tm_T> hi artnay and kwwii
<kwwii> good thing nobody is around
<cody-somerville> kwwii, hmm? ;)
<_MMA_> haha
<kwwii> ;-9
 * kwwii finished up the gdm changes
<cody-somerville> :)
<cody-somerville> kwwii, In firefox and other apps, I noticed that the lines that used to exist to seperate the widgets no longer exist after that upload that made changes to the .gtkrc of the default theme.
<cody-somerville> kwwii, Was that on purpose?
 * _MMA_ scoffs at Ken's attempts to "pretty up" Ubuntu and thinks he should become a professional beer drinker.
<kwwii> cody-somerville: nope, I think that is a known problem in firefox
<kwwii> to be honest, i think that we will switch back to ubuntulooks very soon now
 * cody-somerville nods.
<cody-somerville> I wonder if I can get an IRC client for my blackberry
<kwwii> I think that you can on many of them
<_MMA_> Oh come on kwwii. No fun retort? :P
<kwwii> _MMA_: just wait till I am done and I ask you to test this for me :-)
<kwwii> that will be funny enough for me
<_MMA_> hahahahah
<_MMA_> I just say it works. ;)
<kwwii> anyway, my wife is on a business trip so I am home alone with my son...I am too tired to be making jokes
<_MMA_> Ok. Save 'em for Prague. :)
<cody-somerville> :)
<kwwii> oh, man, that is coming up too
<_MMA_> Yep. Yay for 11hr flights. I gotta strait shot from Atlanta to Prague.
<kwwii> at least you don't have to change flights
<kwwii> i live 2.5 hours away and it will take me like 6 hours to get there
<_MMA_> kwwii: Well I take a 45min hop to Atlanta from Raleigh. Sit there for an hour then catch the flight to Prague.
<kwwii> _MMA_: shouldn't be too bad for a free trip to prague :-)
<_MMA_> Naa... Berlin woulda been better. :P I'm also looking to going to Dublin afterward.
<kwwii> hehe, Berlin is AMAZING
<kwwii> oh well, eventually, I will finish gdm and go to bed
<kwwii> I have an update for the wallpaper (the one I showed you) as well as an update for gtkrc murrine
<kwwii> gdm will be the biggest change I guess
<_MMA_> kwwii: Fon. Got a screenshot?
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-03-13
<kwwii> _MMA_: the hardest part of gdm is making the screenshot
<kwwii> for some reason the themetester won't run on my system
<kwwii> http://sinecera.de/Human.tar.bz2 is the dir directly out of my system
<kwwii> but I am really tired and need to sleep so I can get up with my kid in 5 hours
<kwwii> so for tonight, goodbye
<wasikevin>  talk>
<bod_> 14,,. i wonder if anyone is active,,. hello guys,.,.
<bod_> any one alive yet?
<cody-somerville> Yup
<xivulon> kwwii, last time you mentioned to use /usr/share/pixmaps/ubuntu.svg for umenu/wubi icons and artwork
<xivulon> but there is no such file for hardy (it is there for gutsy)
<xivulon> http://packages.ubuntu.com/search?searchon=contents&keywords=ubuntu.svg&mode=filename&suite=hardy&arch=any
<xivulon> not to mention that I am not sure where to get kubuntu.svg and xubuntu.svg (assuming the current ones are not ok)
<bod_> can u take a look at these and lemme no what u think plz -- http://s258.photobucket.com/albums/hh275/Bodsda/ -- ;~)
<kwwii> xivulon: there is no artwork for each release
<kwwii> xivulon: and I was saying that you should look into that stuff
<xivulon> kwwii: is there one place where to get such svg? how do I know at all which to use? Now I am using graphics from the logs http://canonical.com/logos
<xivulon> logos
<xivulon> yet the ubuntu one is quite different from the svg in /usr/share/pixmaps/ubuntu.svg under gutsy
<xivulon> by the way would such artwork changes be subjects to UI freeze?
<xivulon> I'd assume that if I upload something today I will be fine with artwork freeze (also because kwwii that's up to you as I understand ;)
<kwwii> xivulon: look in a running system
<kwwii> it has an svg which can, and is, used as an icon
<kwwii> that was kinda my whole point
<kwwii> otherwise you can just use the real logos and be done with it
<kwwii> but using existing icons is less work than the other way around I thought
<xivulon> kwwii: isn't there a local file path or a url for such things?
<xivulon> I did look for a ubuntu svg/icon within a hardy installation without much luck
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-03-14
<coz_> so have any decisions been made about hardy default sounds at all?
<Cimi> kwwii, ping
<kwwii> Cimi: pongety pong pong
<Cimi> kwwii, did you fix the scrollbars?
<kwwii> Cimi: you mean the trough? yes, I did that
<kwwii> funny thing about that...it was one of the points that mark liked (having a pixel trough around the 3D elements)
<kwwii> but I agree that it made the scrollbars look funky
<kwwii> Cimi: did Scott ever get in touch?
<Cimi> ?
<kwwii> Keybuck is his nick
<kwwii> I mentioned to him that he should talk to you about working on the new theme for +1
<kwwii> he is my boss ;-)
<kwwii> erm
 * _MMA_ hopes it was a time-out.
<kwwii> yeah, no doubt
<kwwii> oh well, nothing can go wrong on pi day
<andreasn> heh
<kwwii> hi thorwil
 * thorwil was cleaning the bathroom, dancing to loud house
<thorwil> hi kwwii
<cody-somerville> :)
<kwwii> cleaning the bathroom is the best time to dance :-)
<bersace> Hi
<bersace> Where is the code for hardy theme ?
<bersace>  i have to update the HumaList gdm theme
<bersace> i can't find hardy-gdm-theme and branch it :(
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-03-15
<catfacts> ok, is there anyone here who would be willing to help design a logo
<_MMA_> catfacts: Best to hit the ML.
<catfacts> ML?
<_MMA_> mailing list
<catfacts> ah
<catfacts> anyone willing to step up now?
<catfacts> ok to the mailing lists then
<catfacts> where exactally are the mailing lists? i dont see it on the wiki
<thorwil> _MMA_: thanks for the flowers! :)
<_MMA_> :P
<_MMA_> Why does everything I read say that for serious audio/video gstreamer sux? So funny.
<thorwil> no reasons given?
<thorwil> i don't know how succesful jokosher is
<_MMA_> Well my latest example is looking for a music player with a EQ. Audacious looks to be the best. Its sounds like I expect. I really like Exaile but some just sounds, different. And it uses gstreamer.
<_MMA_> But to answer, Jokosher if fine for quick and easy.
<thorwil> fun. my audio projects are long and complicated ^^
<_MMA_> Holy Shit! Why the hell is this not in the repos?!http://www.les-stooges.org/pascal/pencil/index.php
 * _MMA_ wishes he knew before. I would have got it in. :(
<MadsRH> Hi. How about adding a Ubuntu throbber for Nautilus
<_MMA_> MadsRH: I tried. Ken said no. :) Wasn't much response to my post about the tool I made to do it either.
<MadsRH> Ken? Sad, because I think it would be very nice
<_MMA_> MadsRH: Sure. The one I did just might not have been suitable. Not that the idea wasn't good.
<kavoor> hi, would anyone help me out here .. http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=724915
<_MMA_> So, I threw one in Ubuntu Studio and thats enought for me. ;)
<MadsRH> Found this on http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php/Ubuntu+Human+throbber+for+Nautilus++?content=67103
<_MMA_> kavoor: I'm not sure, and that's gross. Just grab a Mac theme from GNOME-Look.
<_MMA_> MadsRH: Thats a bit too in-your-face IMO.
<kavoor> _MMA_: that would change the window looks also .. I want only the scrollbars
<_MMA_> MadsRH: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-art/2007-November/004492.html
<MadsRH> I see what you mean. The one i suggested almost look like a clickeable icon, your is by far better.
<_MMA_> Just parts of it fade in while thinking.
<MadsRH> yes, it's very cool. Do you know the reson that Ken would not accept it?
<kavoor> any idea ???? :(
<MadsRH> Does anyone know if there will be a new boot screen for Hardy or is it still this one http://topi.xdt.hu/images/ubuntu_boot2.jpg
<_MMA_> MadsRH: It hasnt changed.
<_MMA_> Only the wallpaper and a slight GDM tweak is all.
<_MMA_> Intrepid is where you'll see more change.
<MadsRH> Yes that I've seen. It looks really really great - shame about boot screen though
<andreasn> if anyone runs across a good generic throbber, please let me know
<andreasn> we need one for gnome that's not a foot...
<andreasn> it's too branded right now
<_MMA_> andreasn: Like?
<_MMA_> The swirling dots or bars thing maybe?
<andreasn> more like the one in firefox, or the one on the mac
<andreasn> just something simple and straight forward
<andreasn> nothing fancy really
<_MMA_> andreasn: Ill work on something now.
<andreasn> cool!
<andreasn> perhaps I can nick the one they use on fedora
<_MMA_> What's that one look like?
<andreasn> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Artwork/ThemingOverview?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=05f8a.png <- in the bottom, right corner
<_MMA_> Ahh... That one. I wonder what it looks like in a resting state.
<andreasn> hm, good question
<_MMA_> Well, doesn't really *need* to show does it?
<_MMA_> Could just pop up when working.
<andreasn> yeah, agreed
<andreasn> _MMA_: so, how are thing otherwise? things going well with Ubuntu Studio?
<_MMA_> andreasn: Yep. Everything is in shape. We just gotta keep testing and make sure things stay in shape.
<andreasn> saw some boot graphics you did a couple of days ago, looked really nice
<_MMA_> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Artwork/OfficialHardy
<andreasn> yeah, that's the one
<troy_s> _MMA_: Great find on Pencil!
<_MMA_> troy_s: I know! Don't you feel like an ass for not knowing?!
<_MMA_> How could I have missed that. :)
<troy_s> _MMA_: That's the beauty of FOSS.
<troy_s> _MMA_: Things pop up.
<troy_s> _MMA_: If you hadn't of found it, I doubt I would have seen it.
<_MMA_> :P
<troy_s> _MMA_: Looks like it has some very nice little sketching ability too.
<_MMA_> Its sick with a pad. You gotta try it.
<troy_s> _MMA_: Hrm... really?
<troy_s> _MMA_: Busy weekend.  My newer SLR body showed up and I have a shoot to do with it -- back to menu learning.  Ugh.
<_MMA_> Still, that cool.
<_MMA_> troy_s: Anyway I think we're gonna try to get this into Debian for Intrepid. Sync, then backport for Hardy.
<_MMA_> andreasn: I have the start of the throbber now. What email address do you prefer?
<troy_s> _MMA_: While you are here...
<troy_s> _MMA_: Do you have any knowledge of the m-audio Fast Track USB?
<troy_s> _MMA_: I have it chatting with Jack in terms of recognition, but my friend couldn't get an audio signal into it.
<_MMA_> troy_s: Nope. Ive seen mention on out ML. crimsun would be best to ask as to if at least supported.
<troy_s> _MMA_: So in your knowledge, just having Jack see it doesn't mean it will work eh?
<_MMA_> troy_s: SOmeone just sent me this as a possible for the DIY icon theme. http://members.shaw.ca/ericdhedekar/sound/Humanitarian.tar.bz2
<_MMA_> troy_s: Do. You gotta make sure you have the firmware loaded for some cards. Like wifi cards.
<_MMA_> s/DO/No
<troy_s> _MMA_: Jesus.  I hate USB crap.
<troy_s> _MMA_: I told the fool what card to buy (2496 M-Audio PCI) and he still got this thing... grr.
<troy_s> _MMA_: Did you ever get that bloody phase magazine thing?
<troy_s> _MMA_: I wanted to show you a poster spin I did in the Dose Productions style.
<troy_s> _MMA_:  I _really_ think we could make it happen in little time and it is damn striking and damn hot lookin.
<andreasn> _MMA_: andreas@andreasn.se
<troy_s> _MMA_: Wow... some slick icons in that set from what I see so far.  Love the woman's face with the floral flourish.
<troy_s> _MMA_: This is some guy's work!?!?!?!
<troy_s> _MMA_: It is sooooo contemporary.
<_MMA_> troy_s: Dont know. Just got it and haven't really dug into it yet. Does look cool though.
<_MMA_> troy_s: PCI cards are the only way to go. Tell him to take it back.
<_MMA_> troy_s: It might be a bit too stylized. I think some things like the drive icons should be more realistic.
<troy_s> _MMA_: Well... all things said, it is damn stylized and rather cool.  One could argue about the execution on some fronts, etc...
<_MMA_> And they look _really_ out of place against most upstreams icons in the menu.
<troy_s> _MMA_: I'd say it could probably work with some interaction.  Hard to tell if he can actually do the design work.
<_MMA_> Fun set though.
<troy_s> _MMA_: Yeah well... that's going to always happen and who really cares in the end.
<troy_s> _MMA_: That is a gongshow.
<_MMA_> troy_s: I do as Ill get all the shit for it. :)
<troy_s> _MMA_: Yeah but christ, if all we do is sheep after a rather uh... questionable set of decisions, who cares?
<_MMA_> But yeah. Something to work with.
<troy_s> _MMA_: It has a lot of directions it could go in.
<_MMA_> Yep
<troy_s> _MMA_: 48's seem pretty decent resolution etc.  You would obviously end up needing to kick that asstastic 22 pixel size out of the menus and use min 36 or something (which is what it should be anyways)
<_MMA_> troy_s: Makes the menu alot bigger. And with the amount of things in the sound&video menu that will be an issue.
<troy_s> _MMA_: It will make it bigger, but you also gain a little aesthetic.
<troy_s> _MMA_: Maybe even a little more recognition for a new user.
<troy_s> _MMA_: Are you still running Hardy?
<_MMA_> It's all a balance. It will make the size of our sound&video huge. One thing we got alot of flac for and we fixed with our new menu system. Would be a kinda regression IMO.
<_MMA_> Im on Hardy yes.
<_MMA_> Not here. On the desktop.
<troy_s> _MMA_: Is Hardy still using outlined controls or did it push away from that?
<troy_s> _MMA_: I saw some chatter in here from Cimi about 'blah blah no outline equals ugly blah blah'
<_MMA_> Im running Ubuntu Studio-Hardy.
<_MMA_> So Im unsure.
<_MMA_> Ken's gonna go back to Ubuntulooks.
<troy_s> _MMA_: I wonder why.
<_MMA_> The Murrine one isnt really looking better. Some quirks. So its gonna go back to Ubuntulooks and work on murrine for Intrepid.
<_MMA_> kwwii: Chime in if you're lurking.
<troy_s> _MMA_: Ok.  Go to Phase and get that magazine.
<_MMA_> I looked through it already. I looked at what you told me to at the time.
<troy_s> phase 3, page 18
<_MMA_> troy_s: Actually, if you have the time for Intrepid, Xubuntu will be/is in need of dire help with their art.
<troy_s> _MMA_: It is bloody brilliant stuff.
<troy_s> _MMA_: It all comes down to the direction.  I have seen solicitations from Xubuntu, Kubuntu, etc.
<_MMA_> You could come in and create the whole Xubuntu look if you wanted to. Anyone could actually. They're barely hanging on atm.
<troy_s> _MMA_: Everyone seems to be wanting an identity away from that ass nasty curvey hell.
<troy_s> _MMA_: My biggest problem, as you know, is to not want to let someone down by saying 'YEAH' and then getting bogged down on a show.
<troy_s> _MMA_: I can't stand that idea.
<_MMA_> Sure.
<troy_s> _MMA_: Rather like how long it has taken me to do a remix on the Metalinker site.
<troy_s> _MMA_: You have seen how cautious I am to say 'yeah' to your scenario, and yours is optimal.
<_MMA_> Yep. It's why I just do whatever 'till you give me a pint of blood as proof of commitment. ;)
<troy_s> _MMA_: When I say 'yeah I'm in' on a project, I am in.  Again though, the problem is that I couldn't stand the thought of saying that then boning you and becoming Huwesque.
<troy_s> _MMA_: I _could_ drop out a series, but that sort of eliminates the revision procedure, and is probably sub-optimal.
<_MMA_> Yeah. I'd have to send some knuckle-draggers your way to learn ya something if you pulled a Huw.
<troy_s> _MMA_: Lol.
<_MMA_> ;)
<troy_s> _MMA_: Anyways, the show I said I was probably going to do went away, but now Akira is looking a very real possibility.
<troy_s> _MMA_: Which is a rather large budget.
<_MMA_> huh?
<_MMA_> Liva action Akira?
<_MMA_> *Live
<troy_s> _MMA_: Yes.
<_MMA_> killer
<troy_s> _MMA_: Leonardo Di Caprio's company.  Rather big budget.
<troy_s> _MMA_: It would be fun, especially because David might very well be the DP on it.
<_MMA_> Sounds cool.
<troy_s> _MMA_: _IF_ that happens, that means I can coast for a couple of months / several.
<troy_s> _MMA_: And that means a good glut of time.
<_MMA_> Cool. If that happens, I think of all the projects, Xubuntu needs the most help.
<_MMA_> But they have alot of work to do.
<_MMA_> Or whoever takes over actually. Will most likely be Cody.
<troy_s> _MMA_: They might, but Studio is more in line with what I think is contemporary, and I know the guy who is running the show.  He is a little more progressive.
<_MMA_> :P
<_MMA_> Well Ill need to know from you in the next few months. Say, by May.
<troy_s> _MMA_: Sure.  I am just reading a "Too visually busy" comment on the wiki.  It makes me laugh out loud.
<_MMA_> Link?
<troy_s> _MMA_: More supporters of the fcoc*ing status quo -- the bloody bland 'whip up a two minute curve on a gradient' bliss types.
<troy_s> _MMA_: Of which, we have too many.
<troy_s> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Hardy/Alternate/Fela_Kuti
<_MMA_> Meh. We all have our opinions. Sometimes I like flashy. Sometimes it a flat light-blue background ans Clearlooks.
<_MMA_> s/ans/and
<_MMA_> Oh that. Yeah. Hell. I could show you busy! :P
<troy_s> _MMA_: Well that's just it... it is all rubbishy opinion that is not even barely mired in an implied audience.  It is such a problematic process that it is almost laughable.
<_MMA_> I think its great thats shipping as default.
<troy_s> _MMA_: Not to mention that for the first time I think in ... uh... ever... I can recall a _woman_ blogging about an Ubuntu wallpaper.
<_MMA_> :)
<_MMA_> Mark even likes it. ;)
<troy_s> _MMA_: Which makes me think that perhaps something is wrong.  Pretty sure he will force some strange classicbuntuism into it.
<_MMA_> I actually think this layout will eventually happen. To some degree. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Hardy/Alternate/Fela_Kuti?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=Screenshot.png
<_MMA_> troy_s: Naa.. Grab a Hardy daily. Besides the theme, things are pretty much set as they are.
 * _MMA_ goes to grab daily.
<troy_s> _MMA_: That's probably part of the problem really -- it would have been nice to have the ability to actually create the work as it _should_ be -- meaning no repeat of the image but some custom stylized little human swirls for the other regions.
<troy_s> _MMA_: Hokey pokey we go.
<troy_s> _MMA_: Even that however, it is still a _heavy_ step in at least the right direction.
<troy_s> _MMA_: Ash's work is pretty amazing.
<_MMA_> Ken did just that for the GDM I think. Has bits from the wallpaper but not the heron.
<troy_s> _MMA_: The coolest element of Ash's work though is that he blobbed the swirls to make them little humans.  Quite clever.
<troy_s> ok...
 * troy_s nights.  (Actually mornings but a full turnaround in work schedule is nights now...)
<MadsRH> Hi. Just wanted to say that I've just installed 8.04 Alpha and it looks great ;-)
<troy_s> MadsRH: How long have you been using Ubuntu?
<MadsRH> Not long. About 6 months I think.
<MadsRH> Why do you ask?
<troy_s> MadsRH: Just curious about your previous experience and how you feel about the current wall.
<troy_s> MadsRH: How old are you?
<MadsRH> 26 years
<troy_s> MadsRH: Do you consider yourself a techy or more average?
<MadsRH> average, I would say techy with Windows but all that knowleged is not worth anything here ;-)
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-03-16
<bersace> kwwii: hi
<bersace> kwwii: did you merge humanlist branch ?
<kwwii> bersace: no, should I?
<bersace> kwwii: of course Ã§
<bersace> !
<bersace> -Ã§
<bersace> i updated humanlist following your changes
<kwwii> I am not sure exactly what you mean :-)
<kwwii> ok, so we somehow need to merge your branch into the official launchpad branch, right?
<bersace> yes
<bersace> kwwii: https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~bersace/ubuntu-gdm-themes/humanlist
<kwwii> I will be submitting a few improvements to the human-gdm theme tomorrow, we can look into it then
<bersace> ok
<kwwii> there is a bug in the placement of the warning messages atm
<bersace> ping me
<bersace> when you've done
<kwwii> will do
<bersace> so i can maintain humanlist
<bersace> nice
<kwwii> no more visual changes, btw
<bersace> ah
<bersace> i'm only concerned about images
<kwwii> cool
<bersace> i have no probleme with error ;)
<kwwii> I'll ping you sometime tomorrow, what time will you be around?
<bersace> hmm, late
<bersace> can't you use some bot like Dorrito to ping me once i'm logged in ?
<bersace> or just mail me
<kwwii> ok
<kwwii> Dorrito?
<bersace> a bot
<bersace> kwwii: my jabber id is bersace at gmail dot com
<bersace> if ever.
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-03-09
<_MMA_> How juvenile. "murdamurdakillkill joined ubuntu-art"
<thorwil> oh, surely a rude boy
<_MMA_> kwwii: You looking at #ubuntu-devel?
 * thorwil briefly considered forwarding the freeze notice to ubuntu-art
<lucazade> os
<lucazade> sorry wrong window!
<kwwii> _MMA_: nope, what is happening?
<kwwii> in case anyone is windering, I am in capetown south africa and not always connected to the internet
<_MMA_> kwwii: Too late now. Was chat about the extra themes package.
<kwwii> ahhh
<thorwil> kwwii: how's the wallpaper info review process going?
<_MMA_> thorwil: He's AFK.
<thorwil> _MMA_: i don't expect immediate replies.
<thorwil> https://answers.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+question/63570
<thorwil> ^ is that person simply overlooking the need to create an account and log in, or is there something else going on?
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-03-10
<filo1234> hi all  how can i modyfy font size of this item ? http://imagebin.org/40740
<filo1234> i have see Human.xml but i have not found referments
<_MMA_> filo1234: That *should* be part of the GDM theme. Or, it's keyed off you personal font settings.
<filo1234> _MMA_: where i found option key off for personal fonts?
<filo1234> _MMA_: gconf-editor ? /desktop/gnome/interface/gtk_theme
<filo1234> use_custom_fonts?
<kwwii> good morning, from south africa
<loic_m> hello
<loic_m> i wanted to know if jaunty alpha6, to be release in 2 days, will have the final artwork
<gaminggeek> loic_m: don't know probably not
<loic_m> oh ok
<loic_m> anyway we'll see
<_MMA_> Cimi_: Have you released that newer version of Murrine we chatted about?
<Cimi_> _MMA_, no but the svn trunk is ok
<_MMA_> Cimi_: It makes it harder to update then.
<Cimi_> why?
<_MMA_> The archive guys just like it that way. I think I can get it done.
<Cimi_> _MMA_, tell me anyway when this will be done so I can manage to review the full code and/or do a development release
<_MMA_> Cimi: I'm trying to get it done now actually. Hopefully, tonight or tomorrow I'll have the updated package done so Ken can push it through.
<Cimi_> _MMA_, could you get it done tomorrow evening?
<Cimi_> tomorrow I would like to review the code
<_MMA_> Cimi_: Ok. Ill make it Friday. Should give you plenty of time.
<Cimi_> thank you
<_MMA_> Cimi: After talking to some on my people, making the release public, no matter how small, will make the update alot more smooth.
<Cimi> I will think about it
<_MMA_> Cimi: Sure. But I'm doing this because you asked. Really, my guys are so burnt I'd rather not. So, if you still care, making it a public release can make or break if it's accepted or not. Make it a .60.1 release. Whatever. Just as long as it's public.
<Cimi> _MMA_, maybe friday. I will think
<Cimi> I'm not sure I would
<Cimi> fixing ubuntu is not on the things I would liek to take care of
<_MMA_> Cimi: Up to you.
<Cimi> yeah
<_MMA_> Cimi: Huh? I thought that was the whole reason for this? Really, if you don't care, I won't bother.
<Cimi> _MMA_, I hated the fact kwwii grabbed a broken svn release and packaged it
<Cimi> I'm asking you to update the package just because I'm tired of bugreports about this broken version
<Cimi> people saying "hey it doesn't work"
<Cimi> and everytime I have to tell them that they are using the wrong version
<Cimi> yes the current svn is much more advanced, but I'm not happy of making a release (which implies some kind of support) just because I'm forced to
<Cimi> but it seems I don't have other solutions....
<_MMA_> Cimi: *Before* you make it public on Friday, contact me. We'll see what we can work out.
<Cimi> ok
<Cimi> thank you for the attention anyway
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-03-11
<thorwil> http://blog.reblochon.org/2009/03/gift-to-competition.html
<J-_> http://image66.webshots.com/766/7/32/65/2347732650103764534JGxqpy_ph.jpg
<J-_> Just rendered it
<J-_> Thinking of making a wallpaper
<J-_> Most definitely will
<Cimi> _MMA_, http://www.cimitan.com/blog/2009/03/11/murrine-development-release-on-the-weekend/
<J-_> http://justin-c18.deviantart.com/art/Ubuntu-Wallpaper-115600488
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-03-12
<kwwii> if anyone knows or talks to kido, tell him to answer his email concerning the licensing of Dust :)
<andreasn> kwwii, hi! I recently noticed you did some fixes to not-connected-thing with the Network Manager icon. Did you look into the connecting stage as well? Haven't been able to figure out any smart design for that.
<kwwii> andreasn: actually, we just updated the offline icon just a few minutes ago...wanted to talk to you about that actually
<kwwii> I have thought about the connecting animation but we decided that for jaunty there is not enough time to do it
<_MMA_> andreasn: I already have an assumption as to the answer to this question but I'm wondering if there is/will/should be support for SSD drives in FreeDesktop? Something like "drive-ssddisk" maybe?
<andreasn> _MMA_, no idea, you can probably check with dobey
<_MMA_> Gotcha
<andreasn> kwwii, I think the meters+[x] makes sense, That's how my cell phone does it. Previously the icon was too much about network, and while that's true in one sense, I think people tend to think more in terms of "does my Internet work, and how fast will it be?"
<andreasn> kwwii, so I welcome the change
<andreasn> _MMA_, I think he's in #ubuntu-devel, but he might not be awake yet
<_MMA_> swalko: If you're happy with your accessories-calculator I'll be adding it to Breathe in the next day or so.
<_MMA_> andreasn: I checked. He's connected but looks away.
<andreasn> I think he's located in Texas or something like that
<kwwii> andreasn: cool, we should discuss this stuff more when there is more time
<andreasn> kwwii, sure. Now it's time for lunch.
<kwwii> cool, bon appetit
<swalko> _MMA_: if you want, you may add it
<swalko> _MMA_: i am fully busy now
<kwwii> _MMA_: we currently don't differentiate between scsi, ide or raid, do we?
<_MMA_> kwwii: No. But it was a point that was brought up at one point. I was just looking into it.
<kwwii> _MMA_: to be honest I doubt there is a reason that a user needs this info, but that is just my opinion ;)
<_MMA_> kwwii: Sure.
<yharrow> Does anybody know what the design status of Jaunty is? are we just going to go with that very out of place GDM screen as the "big change" and make no further changes?
<yharrow> I've been following the art list for a while and seen some really good work, but its impossible for me to tell what will actually be implemented in this next release.
<_MMA_> yharrow: The art list as it is is really just community art. With loose connections to anything official for Ubuntu. /That's/ Canonicals show.
<yharrow> _MMA_, ok, I can understand that. But wouldnt it make sense for canonical to give at least some tiny indication of what work fits its goals, so that artists have at least some idea of which direction they should go in?
<yharrow> Or is the art community simply irrelevant and akin to an ubuntu dedicated gnome-looks.org?
<_MMA_> yharrow: Sure. In as much as it makes sense for the U.S. gov to tell me *exactly* how my taxes are being spent on various bail-out efforts. :P
<yharrow> _MMA_, are you trying to tell me that their design process is confidential?
<_MMA_> yharrow: Communication could be better, sure. Hopefully things will be better for Karmic.
<yharrow> I'm just really dissapointed, since they did tout "a great visual overhaul" in this release
<yharrow> and while I and other people within the community were working hard to make that happen, what was canonical doing?
<_MMA_> yharrow: I'm saying I believe /they/ are still figuring that out. So they can hardy tell us.
<_MMA_> *hardly
<yharrow> _MMA_, lack of organization much?
 * _MMA_ shrugs.
<andreasn> yharrow, "great visual overhaul" have been said for a couple of releases back now. maybe it's rather going to happen in smaller steps over several releases.
<_MMA_> yharrow: I would just contribute to the handful of smaller but still organized projects on the list.
<yharrow> You know what, if they left the release the way it was, I would completely agree. But they went out of their way to include a less than professional looking GDM screen in the alpha that completely clashes with both the overal look and some of the newer themes
<yharrow> it makes me say to myself "what were they thinking?
<yharrow> _MMA_, which organized projects are you referring to?
<_MMA_> "Breathe" for one.
<kwwii> nobody said that we were going to do a total overhaul for this release
<kwwii> we had wanted one for intrepid but that didn't work out....after that we started to build our new team
<kwwii> and just yesterday I had a meeting with important people discussing my plans for increasing the effort on community artwork
<kwwii> we are planning on pushing out a bunch of design briefs for pretty much every part of the desktop
<kwwii> and I am working on setting up the same kind of thing with two very well known art and design schools
<_MMA_> \m/
<kwwii> also, I'll be putting out a codument once a month or so with the best stuff from the community, the best stuf from outside the community and the best stuff from canonical and the desgin school efforts
<kwwii> erm, document
<kwwii> but anyway, more about all of that when things are finalized
<tretle> kwii - I suspect that when ubuntu switches to packagekit it will be easier to make things like community theme packs etc gain more visability
<tretle> imho visibility of these things is probably one of the current issues
<tretle> and when theres new releases there should be some amount of effort put into advertising changes in certain add on packages like community art packs
<_MMA_> kwwii: Also, I gotta figure out how Synaptics new "Screenshot" feature works. (new button at the bottom near package info) This would be nice for themes and such.
 * tretle thinks it was a bad idea adding the screenshot in the description widget, it should have been done like gloobus
<zniavre> http://img13.imageshack.us/gal.php?g=capturemgq.png
<_MMA_> zniavre: Nice. I dig that.
 * tretle thinks that the fact that there are no size requirements on the screenshots makes synaptic look unbalanced 
<kwwii> tretle: to be honest, it is more about doing the packaging the themes than anything else
<kwwii> _MMA_: yeah
<thorwil> kwwii: just as i was about to work over kyudo. official design briefs could make much of it obsolete
<kwwii> thorwil: actually, I think you'll find that it could help to define it better
<kwwii> we could tie everything into one piece
<thorwil> well, i guess conflicts can be worked out if and when they happen
<kwwii> thorwil: right, I'll keep you in mind when we start this stuff
<kwwii> thorwil: your commitment to the artwork community is pretty amazing and I hate to waste it
<thorwil> the one clear change in my mind has been to drop the whole "we" thing, trying to invite participation in building the kyudo doc itself. no more :)
<thorwil> kwwii: it's all selfish. have to do something to not get insane, not using any of my skills at work ;>
<thorwil> http://streetanatomy.com/blog/2009/03/11/not-your-grandmas-rocking-chair/
<kwwii> thorwil: actually, loosing the we is a really good idea
<kwwii> hehe
<thorwil> i just realised it didn't work and it's more honest without
<kwwii> yes, I think so too
<kwwii> well, time for dinner soon, my last evening in South Africa....see you all tomorrow before I fly home
<thorwil> ok, bon appetite, cya
<kwwii> ciao
<tretle> are there any plans for a new wallpaper/gtk theme before the artwork deadline?
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-03-13
<SealV> I am making--rather porting over an icon theme. How can I get the theme to automatically change the documents/pictures/music folder icon? the freedesktop naming specifications dont seem to cover this
<SealV> noone on?
<SealV> I am making--rather porting over an icon theme. How can I get the theme to automatically change the documents/pictures/music folder icon? the freedesktop naming specifications dont seem to cover this
<kwwii> moin moin
<Cimi> kwwii,  is south africa a good place?
<kwwii> Cimi: it is certainly interesting
<kwwii> everything is super cheap
<kwwii> but the social climate is a bit wierd
<kwwii> the difference between rich and poor is amazingly large
<Cimi> also the diffusion of HIV should be very large
<kwwii> yeah, from what I have read it is
<kwwii> actually, cape town is apparently the "nicest" city, bein atourist town
<kwwii> s/atourist/a tourist
<kwwii> and we are in the area where mark grew up ;)
<tretle1> when will themes be taken out of jaunty and replaced with the new pack with dust and newave
<yharrow> tretle, its likely that there will be no new theme for jaunty.
<yharrow> tretle, I've tried to get some info, but all I've found out that decision making on designs and themes is largely a closed process at this point.
<yharrow> canonical is working on streamlining the design process though. So even if there is no new eyecandy for this release, I'd expect that we can look forward to some improvements in the next one Karmic Koala
<dilomo> thorwil:  you here
<thorwil> dilomo: yes
<dilomo> i have found some time to revamp
<dilomo> the text focus
<dilomo> what do yo think
<dilomo> http://img5.imageshack.us/gal.php?g=screenshotthewidgetfact.png
<thorwil> dilomo: looks balanced no
<thorwil> now, even
<dilomo> thanks
<dilomo> thorwil: what versioun of the theme do you think I should push to ubuntu?
<dilomo> 0.7.3 or that you are seeing here?
<thorwil> dilomo: you shouldn't ask that
<dilomo> why
<dilomo> I'm only asking becaues I'm not sure myself
<thorwil> like i would know what changed and what reason could exist to push anything bu the latest
<dilomo> so you say the latest
<dilomo> ?
<thorwil> dilomo: no, i'm saying you have to know yourself ;)
<dilomo> I konw myself
<dilomo> but the new scolls are not displayed good in oo
<dilomo> and thus I have to make a special
<dilomo> version for ubuntu with scoll arrows and
<dilomo> dark menus istead of the default light because of firefox and oo
<dilomo> ok
<dilomo> I will go t bed now
<dilomo> and tomorrow will deside what to do
<dilomo> bb
<adelie42> I just submitted a patch fixing several bugs, but I don't think I did it right. Anyone willing to help?
<_MMA_> adelie42: Where did you submit it?
<adelie42> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/example-content/+bug/342362
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 342362 in example-content "2 Typos in case_Wellcome.pdf" [Undecided,Fix committed]
<_MMA_> adelie42: Ahh... THe right people should see it. Unfortunatly, the 1 right person I can think of in here, isn't here.
<adelie42> I was checking out this guide: http://doc.bazaar-vcs.org/bzr.dev/en/mini-tutorial/index.html and was checking out the source there, but the content was very different. For instance, the Ubuntu case examples are removed. The pdfd were 'broken' and that was part of what I fixed along with a number of typos.
<adelie42> are the case uses being removed? I was planning on doing a presentation in the near future and was planning on using that stuff. Sad hear if they are deprecated, especially after taking quite some time to fix it (a lot of that being figuring out how to fix corrupted objects in pdf)
<_MMA_> adelie42: See my previous statement.
<adelie42> same problem, ok.  Who should I be looking out for if I want to check back later?
<_MMA_> adelie42: kwwii is your guy. Maybe not directly but he has more info on that package. He should be around tomorrow.
<adelie42> Ok, thanks
<_MMA_> Though he appears here now, he is not.
<adelie42> In general, if I wanted to be more involved in a project, get on the mailing list, and get the latest development version from bzr. Is that about right? I have been programming for a long time, but this is the first I have ever done more than solo projects for personal needs, so I am feeling kinda lost
<_MMA_> adelie42: What exactly do you want to do?
<adelie42> In general, I want to get more involved. I am working on developing and teaching a free "introduction to Ubuntu" class at my local library and was looking for help. I came by this package and being inspired by the case studies and noticing a few errors, and seeing a few on launchpad, I decided to take the initiative and fixed them. I would like to know that I put my patch into the right usable format as mentioned, but I would like to improve my p
<_MMA_> adelie42: But /what/ do you want to do? :) Ubuntu is too big to be "generally" involved.
<adelie42> ha ha, true. I would like to find a few projects within my current programming skill level, fix bugs triaged on launchpad, and use that experience to improve my programming skills. Fixing several broken pdf files and spelling errors was what I did today.
<adelie42> Before this week I was spending a lot of time on ubuntuforums helping people. I love debugging. It is like a puzzle, and it is useful. But fixing bugs alone without getting a patch to anyone is not very useful to anyone.
<adelie42> Is apt-get source foo only useful for fixing bugs for myself and bzr for development versions if I want to make an upstream contribution?
<_MMA_> adelie42: Sorry, atm, I'm spending time with the fam. This doesn't seem the right channel for you but if you hang out I, or someone can point you in a better direction.
<_MMA_> adelie42: Maybe ask a little in #ubuntu-devel.
<_MMA_> But realize it's friday and alot of the world is on break time.
<adelie42> thank you. I appreciate you taking some of your break time. I'll check out ubuntu-devel
<_MMA_> np
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-03-14
<DaveCo> hello.
<DaveCo> i would to help with ubuntu artwork, how can i help? i have experience with photoshop, gimp, and various painting programs
<DaveCo> ?
<DaveCo> ?
<thorwil> http://www.imagepoop.com/images/horse_farting_a_rainbow.jpg
<SiDi> cant view it :O
<SiDi> redirects me on http://www.imagepoop.com/layout/images/nohotlink.gif
<thorwil> ok, then http://www.piccdrop.com/images/1237058443.jpg
<SiDi> That's a clever pic.. :|
<thorwil> we should use that as base if we ever get to unbelievable unicorn
<SiDi> Crazy :)
<o0Chris0o> what are the default wallpaper sizes to use?
<thorwil> well, kwwii's PDF asked for at least 1920x1440
<thorwil> my advice is to work at 2560 x 1600
<thorwil> you might want to have a look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Documentation/WallpaperRules
<o0Chris0o> ok
 * SiDi feels awfully bored :(
 * SiDi just found a highly trollish channel \o/
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-03-15
<DaveCo> hello.
<DaveCo> how can i help make artwork?
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-03-15
<kermiac> Hi ppl. Is there a wiki or something similar outlining the bug workflow for artwork?
<thorwil> kwwii: morning! do you recall a lynx on t-shirts at dallas, other than mine?
<kwwii> thorwil: nope
<thorwil> http://popey.com/blog/2010/03/14/aubergine/
<kwwii> yeah, I tweeted that last nightg
<thorwil> maybe an inspiration for a new startup sound? ;)
<zniavre> good afternoon
<zniavre> do you remember i was asking for inkscape option in gtkrc ? somebody found it > http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/8360/capture1tv.png
<zniavre> sparky2012 the warmth gtk theme owner
<kwwii> zniavre: erm, you said you wanted the toolbar to be dark
<kwwii> or at least that I what I understood :P
<zniavre> im sorry i asked wrongly i guess
<kwwii> zniavre: or I misheard, one of those two options ;-)
<zniavre> still sorry my english is really poor for technical things
<kwwii> no worries, practice makes perfect
 * kwwii gets much and then packs 
<kwwii> lol, lunch, not much
<zniavre> bon appetit :o)
<vish> kwwii: hi.. fix for Bug 533541 , s using a x thickness of 2 , 4 seems to crop the first column
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 533541 in light-themes "Column header (first column left) is partially hidden" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/533541
<vish> i'v attached a screenshot of the bug and the suggested fix as well :)
<kwwii> vish: excellent, thanks for that! I'll have an update to theme ready tomorrow
<kwwii> it is a bug in synaptic though
<kwwii> or gtk itself
<vish> kwwii: it happens in all first columns[which are small] , check rhythmbox
<vish> the screenshot is from the rb fixing , synaptic isnt much of an issue since it was just words;)
<Cimi> kwwii, any news for me? :)
<thorwil> celebrates the new identity: http://www.flickr.com/photos/el_perseguidor/3288294250/sizes/l/
<kwwii> Cimi: nope, it might take a couple of weeks before i hear anything
<Cimi> ok
<kwwii> heading out to the airport in a bit, be back much later
<knome> thorwil, lol :D
<shadeslayer> anyone free enough to help me on a personal project?
<thorwil> shadeslayer: that's not terrible likely, but if you just explain the issue instead of asking to ask, you might have a chance
<thorwil> that said, coffee time, bbl
<knome> thorwil, bon appetit
<shadeslayer> well i need to create a poster and need a helping hand
<shadeslayer> a poster for my tech fest
<thorwil> shadeslayer: where's the problem?
<shadeslayer> thorwil: well im trying something out,lets see how it turns out
<shadeslayer> thorwil: and maybe you guys can touch it up :D
<shadeslayer> thorwil: just one thing,how do i select text after exporting the image to jpeg
<thorwil> shadeslayer: what applications do you work with? you want to select text on a jpeg image? if so, there's no text anymore, just pixels
<shadeslayer> thorwil: http://simplest-image-hosting.net/i0-background-by-jmuirhead-jpg.jpg : GIMP
<shadeslayer> i just took the background from deviant art
<thorwil> shadeslayer: does the author of the background provide permission for such use?
<vish> kwwii: is this is intentional > Bug #538093 ? the padding for the maximized and normal windows is different?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 538093 in light-themes "Maximised/unmaximised not level below gnome-panel" [Wishlist,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/538093
<shadeslayer> thorwil: i dont know.... i think yes
<shadeslayer> thorwil: ah yes,in the comments he says it can be used
<thorwil> shadeslayer: good. needs to be explicit, because the default is all rights reserved
<shadeslayer> thorwil: oh..
<shadeslayer> thorwil: i want to have something like this : http://gravitydesign.deviantart.com/art/D-Dawg-aka-Dor-Aldy-Wallpaper-157328330
<shadeslayer> thorwil: without the d-dawg stuff
<thorwil> shadeslayer: use PNG for such images with high contrast. never use JPG if you intend to work on the files (JPG only for final export)
<shadeslayer> ok
<thorwil> shadeslayer: that smoke is entirely different from what you have. so you want to start over?
<shadeslayer> thorwil: oh no... i need to make 4 posters... did one..3 to go
<shadeslayer> will probably use that for 2 of them
<shadeslayer> and then i need one which has a computer PCB
<thorwil> shadeslayer: there's much you should learn about font selection and layout, but i can't cover that in a chat ;)
<shadeslayer> thorwil: oh ok,i got around the font problem
<shadeslayer> KDE+gimp!=good
<thorwil> shadeslayer: for the smoke, try this: go to http://compfight.com and enable Creative Commons Only or Commercial if you want all options, search for smoke
<shadeslayer> ok
<thorwil> be sure to have a look at the various Creative Commons license so you know what is and isn't allowed whenever you see one
<shadeslayer> oohh nice
<shadeslayer> thorwil: of course
<thorwil> oh, and Safe Search: On really is a good idea
<shadeslayer> :P
<shadeslayer> im 19 :D
<thorwil> yes, but do you want to see smoking girls flashing?
<shadeslayer> hehe.. its on by default :D
<thorwil> bbl, but don't hesitate to talk/ask on
<shadeslayer> thorwil: www.shadeslayer.posterous.com : can i get that background?
<thorwil> shadeslayer: that could be a KDE wallpaper you might find elsewhere. you could just send an email to that guy
<thorwil> shadeslayer: though it wouldn't be terrible hard to create something similar in inkscape
<thorwil> really gone now
<zniavre_> http://paste.ubuntu-fr-secours.org/src-88167  > this can be usefull to fil the murrine documentation ?
<thorwil> ^ Cimi, kwwii
<zniavre_> im totally scared about editing the wiki
<thorwil> zniavre_: it doesn't bite and everything can be rolled back
<zniavre_> :o)
<zniavre_> what a responsability mate ... editing the ubuntu documentation
<thorwil> zniavre_: yeah, easily gets 400 views. in a year ;)
<zniavre_> it looks difficult to do
<zniavre_> the french wiki seems easier to edit  :o)
<zniavre_> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Documentation/Murrine#preview
<zniavre_> if i understand well someboby have to approve it ?
<thorwil> zniavre_: no. you can save the changes
<zniavre_> i saved it ... so scarry
<zniavre_> on url i left the #preview but it works with https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Documentation/Murrine
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-03-16
<Cimi> nice zniavre_
<zniavre_> good morning
<thorwil> zniavre_: so you got the hang of editing the wiki, eh? :)
<zniavre_> thorwil,  :o)
<unggnu> hi all
<unggnu> Is the boot splash for Lucid final or are there still changes planned? I mean it looks great but I think the animation looks too much like a progress bar which is misleading imho.
<unggnu> I have also read that plymouth isn't added to initramfs until luks is used. Is this done because of boot time reasons? I guess that's the reason why I often still see fsck, error and som other messages and cursors until the boot splash is shown.
<unggnu> I It seems that the start time is really fast through the "progress bar" and then suddenly the animation starts go backwards.
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-03-17
<JuanMarquez> hi
<JuanMarquez> i need the new font ubuntu, for mi slider impress, thsk
<JuanMarquez> ?
<knome> ehm
<kwwii> lol
<kwwii> if nothing else, patience is a virtue
<knome> sure
<zniavre_> good evening
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-03-18
<coz_> would any of you know  how to either extract the svg icon from this file   http://dl.dropbox.com/u/132551/icon.sh  or to replace the one that it creates with another svg file?
<knome> coz_, find printf "
<knome> start copying after the quotes
<coz_> knome,  ok  and stop at which point?
<knome> then go to near finish and find </svg>
<knome> and copy the closing </svg> tag as well
<coz_> ok and then save that to an xml file?
<knome> then save that as something.svg
<coz_> mm wont open
<knome> says what?
<coz_> let me try I think I made a mistake
<knome> oh right :P
<knome> no you didn't
<knome> replace \" with "
<knome> every occurrence
<coz_> knome,  you mean every  \ should be removed?
<knome> i'm not sure if EVERY \ should be removed. just replace \" with "
<coz_> knome,  ok I removed all \'s and it opened
<knome> coz_, okay. have fun.
<coz_> thanks
<uvacav> anyone know when the rest of the purple icons are dropping?
<kwwii> w00t, I am alive again
<thorwil> kwwii: full on resurrection, you don't happen to be a zombie or leech now? what caused your death, anyway?
<kwwii> thorwil: horrible headaches the last two days
<kwwii> thorwil: mainly spent moaning, hurting and puking
<kwwii> but now I can actually think again
 * thorwil listened to ivanka on the uk podcast
<zacbarton> anyone know how to style/access the nautilus info bar (cd/dvd creator "drag or copy etc") in gtkrc
<zacbarton> found it. its widget "*.nautilus-extra-view-widget" in-case anyone else needs it
<zniavre> zacbarton,  it's more  as > style "nautilus-sidebar"
<zniavre> widget_class "*Nautilus*Places*Sidebar*"        style "nautilus-sidebar"
<zniavre> widget_class "*Nautilus*Side*.GtkWidget"        style "nautilus-sidebar"
<zniavre> nautilus-extra-view-widget is for the search thing into nautilus i guess
<zniavre> http://img2.imageshack.us/img2/3033/captureqv.png
<zacbarton> zniavre: ta for the follow up. it looks like bg[NORMAL] for nautilus-extra-view-widget is used in the search results and also the info bar (cd/dvd burn, this media contains photos etc)
<zniavre> zacbarton,  i was wrong cause my bad english sorry
<zacbarton> no problems at all mate :-)
<zniavre> i believed you wanted to colorize the sidepanel in  nautilus
<dashua> zacbarton, style "nautilus-sidebar"  {GtkTreeView::even_row_color = @bg_color (whatever color you want it)}
<zacbarton> dashua: great ta mate
<dashua> Hi the classes too
<dashua> If you Place the same color too
<dashua> widget_class "*Nautilus*Places*Sidebar*"    	style "nautilus-sidebar"
<dashua> widget_class "*Nautilus*Side*.GtkWidget"    	style "nautilus-sidebar"
<dashua> Places*
<dashua> Hit the classes*
<zacbarton> yep that makes sense
<kwwii> vish: hey, if you find duplicates of the window decoration button bug mark them as duplicates
<kwwii> hi dashua
<dashua> kwwii, Hey man
<kwwii> dashua: so the new progess bars have been accepted ;-)
<dashua> Wow
<dashua> Nice
<kwwii> dashua: going to push an update later sometime
<kwwii> not sure if I'll get to it before I have to catch my plane though
<dashua> Ok cool, cleaned up a lot
<dashua> We're you able to make a better close icon for Radiance.
<dashua> Not that good with icons =/
<kwwii> dashua: yeah, I am going to redraw them all
<kwwii> which is why it will take a bit longer
<dashua> Ok cool, the toughs could use some love too if you're going to use that method.
<dashua> Nice
<dashua> troughs*
<kwwii> yeah, I think in the end we will go with the seperate trough
<dashua> Ok good
<kwwii> although ideally we would just fix compiz
<dashua> True
<dashua> That metacity patch seems to work good
<kwwii> I don't like the idea of fixing this with a hack which will break on all systems when the font-size is changed
<dashua> Did you check that video out?
<dashua> Yeah
<kwwii> video?
<dashua> I sent you an email
<kwwii> hrm, let me look again
<dashua> Demoing the button switches
<kwwii> my headaches seem to have erased things
<dashua> With Compiz running
<dashua> Ha
<dashua> Most combos work except for a few
<dashua> I like ivanka's idea Max > Min                            Close
<dashua> Getting used to this though
<kwwii> dashua: interesting, itshows that it works with everything except for windows with just one button
<kwwii> dashua: which works fine with just metacity
<kwwii> I think there is more and more that says we need to fix compiz
<dashua> Yeah
<dashua> In essence if there is going to be customization you'll need left and right trough images
<dashua> I have that working too
<kwwii> well as the metacity was, it worked fine, with all windows except just min and close
<dashua> Hopefully a gix for compiz gtk-window-decorator will come
<dashua> fix*
<kwwii> indeed
<kwwii> but I doubt it
<kwwii> then again, I would love for someone to prove me wrong ;-)
<dashua> http://www.ubuntu-pics.de/bild/47653/screenshot_037_5GGA68.png
<dashua> It fixes gnome-appearance-preferences except for the menu icon
<kwwii> yeah, I wish i could kill the menu icon
<kwwii> I guess since we turn it off anyway, i could put the mini-icon back
<dashua> That icon is really useless
<dashua> I dpn't think I've ever used it.
<kwwii> hehe, now you know why i removed  it ;-)
<vish> kwwii: re: the win deco bugs , there are a few bugs with variants , mentioning order , should they be duped to the revert to old bug? or do you want them separate?
<vish> there was a bug which said the close is too near the file edit menu
<kwwii> vish: I think they all need to be dupped to that bug
<vish> neat , i'll dup them
<vish> kwwii the other bug i mentioned yesterday about the close button being displayed red for the inactive window? it happens only when the visual effects in off , while if the visual effects is on , the inactive window close is greyed :s
<vish> it seems the title bar for metacity & compiz vary
<kwwii> vish: ouch, that sucks
<kwwii> just assign it to me
<vish> k..
<vish> kwwii: if you are updating the theme , Bug #540973 is a simple change , the gtkrc is throwing xsession errors
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 540973 in light-themes "Failed to retrieve property `GtkTreeView::indent-expanders' of type `gboolean' from rc file value "((GString*) 0x8126c80)" of type `GString'" [Low,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/540973
<unggnu> hi all
<unggnu> I have posted a question about the progress bar some time ago and filed a wishlist report https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-artwork/+bug/540829
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 540829 in ubuntu-artwork "Lucid boot screen is misleading because it looks like a progress bar" [Low,New]
<troy_s> unggnu: What is your issue?
<unggnu> I have also edited the Plymouth ubuntu-logo.script to test it.
<troy_s> unggnu: Erm...
<unggnu> troy_s, If it is an option to change the "progress bar"
<troy_s> unggnu: So you are suggesting that your solution is better than the provided solution.
<unggnu> troy_s, I think so but that's why I am asking :)
<unggnu> I just think the current one is misleading, nothing more.
<troy_s> unggnu: First, this is mostly a 'general' channel, those sorts of decisions are handled internally at Canonical. This is more of a community channel...
<unggnu> ok
<troy_s> unggnu: Two... in the end, that is a fundamental design question.
<troy_s> unggnu: And could likely take up sixteen to forty pages of mailing list.
<troy_s> unggnu: And _still_ not arrive at a 'solution'. ;)
<unggnu> Hm, fundamentally? The design stays the same except of the animation
<unggnu> yeah, but I guess I know what you mean
<troy_s> unggnu: In the end, I am pretty certain that the point is moot. People will adapt or ignore or whatever.
<unggnu> Of course the other solution would be that the indicator actually represents the booting process like in earlier versions
<troy_s> unggnu: It's all rather irrelevant in the end if you don't tackle the harder question - why.
<troy_s> unggnu: What should it do? Why? To whom does that apply?
<troy_s> unggnu: None of which are easy questions, and hence most of the time things such as the point you raise go off and die a dusty death in the ethernet shelving.
<unggnu> Hm, lol, definitely the artwork channel :D
<troy_s> unggnu: Seriously think about those questions though. You can see why things sort of hit a wall at some point.
<unggnu> The problem is that the better it gets the more "important" the little things get
<troy_s> unggnu: What is better ;)
<unggnu> the artwork and boot experience
<troy_s> unggnu: It isn't like code. There is no implicit way to format a stanza and have it compile. It is a design decision and ultimately, like it or not, there is no right or wrong answer.
<unggnu> For example Windows XP also has a indicator bar which moves around instead of filling up
<troy_s> unggnu: Yikes.
<troy_s> unggnu: This is computing right? How do you know your oven is ready?
<troy_s> unggnu: WindowsXP is _one_ path.
<troy_s> unggnu: OSX has another.
<unggnu> troy_s, People have certain expectations, so it could be wrong for them
<troy_s> unggnu: And all things being equal, perhaps there will be many many more.
<troy_s> unggnu: Ahhh there we go. Who?
<unggnu> troy_s, yes, but MacOsX has also no progress bar, it is just turning
<troy_s> unggnu: So what is your point exactly?
<troy_s> unggnu: There are, again, many paths to a workable solution. On some level, it is moot.
<unggnu> so in both cases no one would expect a progress representation
<troy_s> unggnu: Which there is.
<troy_s> unggnu: I'd just suggest that you are approaching this as a 'right / wrong' scenario when in fact it is far more murky. Don't expect much movement on it as those fundamental design decisions are ultimately in Mark's hands.
<troy_s> unggnu: You would be equally challenged to suggest changing the desktop wallpaper. ;)
<unggnu> troy_s, no, it is fine
<troy_s> unggnu: As it is precisely the same sort of issue on some level.
<troy_s> unggnu: Fine and not fine.
<unggnu> troy_s, but it doesn't mislead people, it just might not be their taste
<troy_s> unggnu: I am not misled.
<troy_s> unggnu: Are you?
<troy_s> unggnu: Are you misled?
<unggnu> not by the wallpaper :)
<troy_s> unggnu: It's guesswork.
<unggnu> maybe I should post a video to make the difference clear :D
<troy_s> unggnu: It is perfectly clear to me.
<troy_s> unggnu: But the core of your issue isn't clear to you.
<unggnu> troy_s, yeah, but you are not everyone :D
<troy_s> unggnu: And who is everyone?
<unggnu> I suppose it is 42 :D
<troy_s> unggnu: It's a moot point again.
<troy_s> unggnu: _bingo_
<troy_s> unggnu: That is exactly it.
<troy_s> unggnu: And, short answer - Mark controls those sorts of things ;)
<unggnu> Is there a Mark channel? ;)
<unggnu> no, I just wanted a second opinion. :D
<troy_s> unggnu: There sure is. One guy lives in it and it is invite only.
<troy_s> unggnu: Oh gosh. Don't ask for an opinion. ;)
<troy_s> lol
<unggnu> and wasn't sure if others were involved
<troy_s> unggnu: Practically though, you are aware at absolutely how tricky all of this gets right? For example, did you know that native Mandarin speakers view time equally easily vertically as horizontally?
<troy_s> unggnu: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11487292
<troy_s> unggnu: Which more or less implies that culture will affect your sense of design / aesthetic.
<unggnu> troy_s, Not my fault :D
<troy_s> unggnu: (A bit of a no brainer)
<troy_s> unggnu: But it begs the larger question that _your_ solution may in fact not be a solution in another contxt.
<troy_s> unggnu: And so on and so on and so on.
<unggnu> troy_s, interesting, but I still think this cases are not so important
<troy_s> unggnu: That is a judgement call. As is the effort currently in front of you.
<troy_s> unggnu: And in that respect, especially without tackling the deeper design issues at hand
<troy_s> unggnu: BOTH are likely equally valid.
<unggnu> troy_s, it is a question of the market
<troy_s> unggnu: And within that scope, Mark's decision and the choice of his design team is likely to stand.
<troy_s> unggnu: You really need to read what you are typing.
<unggnu> the biggest market is the Western World and the others adapt. I mean I am pretty sure you couldn't use a computer without learning some basics
<troy_s> unggnu: Wow.
<unggnu> troy_s, there is no keyboard with thousand signs
<unggnu> so they use phonetics afaik
<unggnu> which means you have to adapt
<troy_s> unggnu: A guess on a guess on an estimation on a guess. I'll leave it at that.
<unggnu> anyway, the medium forms our thinking, at least partly
<troy_s> unggnu: More guess.
<unggnu> So ... Do you want to prove Socrates?
<troy_s> unggnu: I started this off by saying it's a moot point.
<troy_s> unggnu: Did I not? :)
<troy_s> unggnu: It is, as you said, 42.
<troy_s> unggnu: Side note - http://farm1.static.flickr.com/14/17023214_7722c7e5cb.jpg
<unggnu> troy_s, Btw. do you know a programming language which is in Madarin?
<unggnu> Haha, cool, I suppose touch typing doesn't work there
<troy_s> unggnu: LOL
<troy_s> unggnu: It really is a tricky question though. As much as we have evolved out of a simple view of design wrapped around Apple and Microsoft, maybe the question is "Should it be?"
<unggnu> I know that many things could be done more efficient but we are just used to the old scheme so we stick with it
<troy_s> unggnu: And regarding start up, the question is 'What needs to happen during start up for a given audience?'. If you can somehow show that in fact the system isn't entirely locked up (and as the duration gets shorter, this is less of an issue one could speculate), the point would be achieved.
<unggnu> I know that the current works. Btw. do you know why the real progress isn't shown? It was possible with older Ubuntu releases.
<troy_s> unggnu: Likely tied to plymouth and such.
<thorwil> unggnu: "Hm, lol, definitely the artwork channel :D"--this is the artwork channel on troy. much different experience sans
<unggnu> :)
<troy_s> thorwil: Greetings thorwil
<thorwil> unggnu: afaik it was considered unfeasible to give a good estimate on how long it takes. so no way to present a progressbar that fills evenly
<thorwil> hi troy_s :)
<troy_s> thorwil: The older usplash had guesses too.
<unggnu> thx
<unggnu> troy_s, but I suppose it has more room (not only five bullets)
<troy_s> unggnu: I don't really mind what part of the ocean I am flying over when I am travelling to France.
<troy_s> But that's me.
<unggnu> It is a long way since Dapper. Dapper had a progress bar and showed which service was started atm :)
<troy_s> I just like to know that the plane isn't crashing.
<unggnu> troy_s, I am fine with it too as long as it doesn't look like a progress bar :)
<troy_s> thorwil: Anything interesting in your parts?
<thorwil> troy_s: well, it looks like we have a final title page design for the manual
<troy_s> thorwil: Well that's good.
<unggnu> Where can I access the manual if I might ask?
<troy_s> unggnu: There's no progress bar in it.
<unggnu> troy_s, I think I will survive :)
<troy_s> unggnu: LOL
<unggnu> No, there is help.ubuntu.com, then there is the question mark icon in the panel and maybe there is a real manual for a box edition or shipped computer. That's why I am asking
<thorwil> troy_s: funny thing: i offered 3 variations in the last design round. Ben, the project lead wanted a version with dots. i made up my mind and said no. Kevin (latex guy) also said no. Ben chatted with sabdfl, who explained what more or less spaced dots are meant ... and he prefers the dotless version
<thorwil> unggnu: the manual isn't done, yet
<unggnu> But where would I normally access it
<unggnu> that's what I am asking
<troy_s> thorwil: Maybe you should go with dots then ;) LOL
<thorwil> heh
<troy_s> thorwil: Personally, I'd put three people grinning with some front lit flash photography and a progress bar on there. BLAM.
<thorwil> unggnu: the project would like to have a PDF on the ubuntu cd, but that's unlikely to happen. at least for the coming release
<unggnu> ok, so it is new
<unggnu> not just updated
<thorwil> yes
<thorwil> unggnu: see http://ubuntu-manual.org and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual
<unggnu> troy_s, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual - hah, it has a progress bar :D
<troy_s> unggnu: Damn you!
<unggnu> troy_s, you can't run :D
<troy_s> unggnu: I'll confess, progress bars make me flop around on the floor in fits.
<thorwil> troy_s: if you ever feel depressed due to some quality issues in floss related artwork (oh, i just can't point you to the latest edition of the gnome 3.0 mockup), check http://ugliesttattoos.com/
<troy_s> thorwil: Funny aside there I suppose... I got asked to do something for Inked.
<unggnu> troy_s, the question is what will you do for them. :D
<unggnu> ok, I am off, ciao
<unggnu> thx
<troy_s> thorwil: That site is hilarious.
<thorwil> yes, hilarious, sometimes fucking nasty
<troy_s> thorwil: Mr. T is pure woop.
<troy_s> thorwil: Man... that's some rich stuff there.
<thorwil> yes, true beauty has no boundries (sic)
<troy_s> thorwil: The one below that was hilarious.
<troy_s> thorwil: I dare say it is so mangled it works perfectly.
<thorwil> troy_s: so what's the something you got asked for?
<troy_s> thorwil: A little piece of ditty for the site methinks. Wasn't terribly interested so kind of went blam.
<thorwil> something to be inked would be more interesting, eh?
<troy_s> thorwil: Wow. There are some pretty amazing works on that site.
<troy_s> thorwil: OMFG. Someone did the the Amazing Horse tattoo.
<troy_s> thorwil: http://ugliesttattoos.com/2010/02/24/forgive-my-singing-tonight-folks-i%e2%80%99m-a-little-horse/
<thorwil> it really is an amazing horse
<troy_s> thorwil: LOL
<troy_s> thorwil: MY WORLD. It is imploding.
<troy_s> thorwil: I so need an Amazing Horse t-shirt.
<thorwil> better say no to the horse pop, though
<troy_s> lol
<Cimi> zniavre, it seems to work here
<zniavre> Cimi,  with xchat too ?
<Cimi> yep
<Cimi> it is subtle
<zniavre> http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/2518/capture3of.png  > check here > nautilus desktop menu with separtor sets to be "white"
<zniavre> no this shot is xchat sorry
<zniavre> http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/301/capture2sc.png  in this one it's nautilus menu
<zniavre> we can see easily differences of separator
<Cimi> looks like you have something wrong in your gtkrc matches
<zniavre> mmm
<zniavre> http://paste.ubuntu-fr-secours.org/src-91819  i can not see where
<zniavre> if you hav a 30sec to check it
<zniavre> :o)
<kwwii> vish: thanks for that, I'll be sure to change it
<Cimi> zniavre, yeah it seems a problem in matching, not sure how to fix it
 * kwwii gets a full 10 days (in a row!) at home
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-03-19
<zniavre> good morning
<zniavre> how to give a rule in gtkrc for >Classpath: GtkWindow.GtkMenu : "menu_shadow" please to try if it's what i want to see?
<vish> kwwii: hi.. why dont the light themes set the gtk-button=16,16 .. [as was done for human]
<vish> zniavre: are you looking for > GtkMenuBar::shadow_type = GTK_SHADOW_NONE
<vish> or GTK_SHADOW_IN   ?
<zniavre> vish,  not really im trying to find why some separator are not ruled by gtkrc
<zniavre> ...test1
<vish> ah..
<zniavre> ooops sorry
<vish> zniavre: hmm , xchat seems to be using gdk?  maybe
<vish> instead of gtk?
<zniavre> cimi add new option 'quite nice) for separator but it does not work every where
<vish> zniavre: which option?
<zniavre> smooth separator
<vish> zniavre: its not a murrine problem , i use industrial menu and xchat doesn follow the rest of the system
<zniavre> http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/301/capture2sc.png
<zniavre> ha ok
<zniavre> on the screenshot you can see desktop nautilus menu with white separator made by engine
<vish> hehe , i'v done the same[lighter seperators] thing with pixmaps :D
<zniavre> yes they are always same
<zniavre> so how to theme gdk apps?
<vish> zniavre: http://imagebin.ca/popup/ihn95SCo.html ;)
<vish> zniavre: you can try to use as gdk instead of gtk   , might work , but i'm just guessing that xchat might be using gdk .. and i maybe easily wrong
<vish> zniavre: found it.
<vish> widget_class "*<GtkMenuItem>*"          style "menu_item"
<vish> zniavre: if i use that the pixmap is used^
<zniavre> that's right
<zniavre> thnak you
<zniavre> thank*
<vish> np..
<zniavre> grrrr it breaks my menuitem rules ...
<vish> zniavre: how to use the option ? smooth separator = TRUE   or   smooth separator = 1  gives error
<zniavre> you need updated GIt murrine
<vish> ah..
<zniavre> <CIA-32> andrea.cimitan * r387560502b18 murrine/ (9 files in 3 dirs): New option: separatorstyle = 1 to draw smooth separators
<zniavre> <CIA-32> andrea.cimitan * r0b328037e8af murrine/ (NEWS schema/murrine.xml.in.in src/murrine_style.c): listviewstyle = 2 for a solid line
<zniavre> textestyle also fixed (but not tried yet)
<vish> yeah , even the button lighting seems fixed , we need to update to latest git
<lassegul> good morning guys n girls
<zniavre> vish, it works for separator but it breaks firefox/OOo/vlc etc...  grrrrr
<vish> zniavre: hehe ;)
<vish> zniavre: probably we should switch to xchat-gnome :D
<zniavre> it looks less good i do not know why
<zniavre> so it's ok now but i loose the separator width and weight
<uvacav> anyone know if the rest of the purple icons are coming soon?
<troy_s> vish: Did you round the corners on that 48 pixel desktop icon?
<vish> troy_s: nope , "wasnt me"  ;)
<troy_s> vish: Lol.
<troy_s> vish: It's got the earmarks of the Hobgoblin's consistency all over it.
<vish> troy_s: the only icon i edited for that was the desktop 128px , which had more rounding , and i had to edit it ;)
<vish> not saying that one is perfect though  :p
<vish> uvacav: what purple icons? seems you have some inside info :)
<troy_s> vish: The rounding everywhere is nauseous. Classic all or nothing. Rather like looking at a human face with eyes all over it.
<vish> troy_s: i closed an old human bug you had commented on..  you've been doing the dance of the "target audience" for quite long ;p
<vish> human theme*
<thorwil> troy_s: current gnome 3 mockups have rounded corners (black to the outside) on the lower corners and at the top towards the panel
<troy_s> vish: LOL. Which one?
<vish> troy_s: Bug 19549
<troy_s> thorwil: Yeah I know. And sixteen football fields of whitespace with no composition.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 19549 in baltix "Usability : the default metacity theme must be accessible." [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/19549
<troy_s> vish: Oh god.
<uvacav> vish: a bunch of purple icons dropped in lucid alpha. http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2010/03/invasion-of-purple-icons.html
<troy_s> vish: Yeah ... we are pretty damn quick on the uptake eh?
<vish> uvacav: AFAIK , nothing more is turning purple..
<thorwil> troy_s: what, the presence of whitespace as such is not composition? ;)
<troy_s> thorwil: I don't know what composition is or whitespace, but Houston - we have a problem.
<troy_s> omfgletssayrockandblingmore.com
<troy_s> Wholly crappers.
<troy_s> Ok... how about a move to avoid the word consistency and replace it with _continuation_?
<troy_s> There are way way way too many folks that use that fricking c word. Consistency is not dipping a Monet in a vat of purple paint.
<troy_s> Donkeyville.
<thorwil> c word is reserved for cunt, though. because you just can't write cunt
 * troy_s *ugh*.
<troy_s> There were several lines there and you crossed them all. That's pretty unacceptable.
<thorwil> i forgive your begginess
<troy_s> thorwil: It isn't mine you need to concern yourself with.
<troy_s> thorwil: I'll suspect that's a translation issue. We shall blame ye German.
<thorwil> troy_s: not at all, there's a very direct equivalent of the term in german. but i really don't think anyone should get worked up about such words.
<troy_s> thorwil: We do. That's the point of language man!
<kwwii> thorwil: very honestly, that is a word you don't say in public
<thorwil> ok, so i should have stopped after "c word is reserved".
<kwwii> preferably, yes
<thorwil> and everyone would have known what i was referring to
<kwwii> but anyway, going to cook dinner now
<thorwil> kwwii: may the sauce be smooth and the salad crisp, as applicable
<kwwii> thorwil: I am indeed having salad ;-)
<knome> salad days
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-03-20
<vish> dashua: kwwii: heya Bug #542659  , not sure where the problem even lies :(
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 542659 in light-themes "2 different scrollbars in the light themes" [Medium,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/542659
<vish> i tried adding,  class "GtkVScrollbar"   , class "GtkHScrollbar"  but nothing seels to work :s
<vish> seems*
<dashua> vish, https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/539861
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 539861 in ubuntu-mono "Banshee needs mono icon (dup-of: 525280)" [Undecided,Invalid]
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 525280 in banshee "Banshee needs a monochrome icon" [Wishlist,Confirmed]
<dashua> Can you re-open this or I am wrong here?
<dashua> vish, Let me take a look.
<vish> dashua: the main bug has both tasks , banshee has been "committed" in ubuntu-mono
<dashua> Ah ok, aren't they different icons?
<dashua> The mono icons are darker.
<vish> dashua: yup a different icon for mono
<dashua> Ah ok.
 * vish thinks ubuntu-mono sounds very wrong ;p
<vish> "mono"
<dashua> You can't even search for the set.  You get ubuntu-mono as in monodevelop
<dashua> vish, That bug is for non-GTK apps?
<vish> dashua: i'm not sure , i notice it in firefox and thunderbird.. does it work correctly for you?
<dashua> The steppers are inside on all non-GTK apps, Thunderbird, OpenOffice.
<dashua> Not sure what the issue is there.
<vish> hmm..
<dashua> Same thing for the window dragging by menubar.
<dashua> Doesn't work for those apps.
<dashua> I get the same error from my branch as well.
<dashua> brb, coffee
<vish> dashua: yeah right , even for OOo its the same
<zniavre> good afternoon
 * zniavre just see new icons colorized 
<vish> dashua: one hack could be to use pixmaps for the scrollbars.. that does not affect this non-gtk issue
<dashua> vish, Yeah, that would work, but I like the engine drawing the scrollbars.
<pace_t_zulu> hey guys... i have a potential lucid bug that falls under your domain
<kwwii> pace_t_zulu: check to see if the bug has already been filed, if not file it, please
<pace_t_zulu> kwwii, i have checked
<pace_t_zulu> kwwii, shouldn't the printer test page for lucid sport the new artwork? ie: the new logo and font?
<pace_t_zulu> kwwii, here is a search for the bug https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/+bugs?field.searchtext="test+page"+lucid+printer
<pace_t_zulu> kwwii, this is an easy bug to fix
<pace_t_zulu> kwwii, i have filed a bug ... https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/system-config-printer/+bug/542975
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 542975 in system-config-printer "Lucid Beta 1 - Printer test page should sport new artwork / theme" [Undecided,New]
<pace_t_zulu>  https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/system-config-printer/+bug/542975
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 542975 in ubuntu-artwork "Lucid Beta 1 - Printer test page should display new Ubuntu logo" [Undecided,New]
<pace_t_zulu> anyone using Lucid desktop or planning to use Lucid Desktop should mark that bug as "affects you"
<kwwii> pace_t_zulu: the logo and font are not done yet :-)
<kwwii> pace_t_zulu: but yes, ideally they should be used
<kwwii> the font won't be ready for lucid anyway though
<kwwii> anyway, off to see Konrad KÃ¼chenmeister, have fun
<islington> kwwii: is that the reason why no svgs are posted?
<pace_t_zulu> the splash screen has the new logo
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-03-21
<SiDi> hi everyone
<SiDi> i'm looking for some free of rights images/icons representing fishes
<SiDi> if anyone got such thing under hand, please ping me
<knome> <><
<knome> SiDi, ping
<SiDi> knome: thanks
<SiDi> you own
<knome> of course ;)
<SiDi> D<)))Â°>
<knome> too complex
<knome> KISS
<SiDi> meh
<knome> ;)
#ubuntu-artwork 2011-03-14
<coz_>   hey all
#ubuntu-artwork 2011-03-15
<evilvish> kwwii: hey, any reason *not* to kick/ban john from the ML ?
<evilvish> kwwii: he is repeatedly lying on the list and it seems time to end his nonsense
<doctormo> evilvish: +1 from me
<evilvish> :)
<evilvish> totally ridiculous to keep watching out for what he is doing/writing... :/
<coz_> wow .. even after all this  john had the balls to say  "
<coz_> There was some confusion on this topic but I was assured by the Design Team all submissions would be considered.
<evilvish> coz_: checkout Â» http://www.flickr.com/photos/59282996@N04/5427699966/  < the comments
<evilvish>  he knowingly is misdirecting..! :/
<coz_> evilvish,  oh damn... and here I had been giving him the benefit of the doubt
<coz_> evilvish,  well then I apologize,, I was certainly hoping he had a valid reason for doing this... apparenly I am not always right :)
<evilvish> nah.. we tried talking to him, i think he is trying to prove that he is capable or something :s
<evilvish> coz_: also, check out the sig when he posts such messages..  ;)
<coz_> evilvish,  well if he wants to be seen as capable ... should he at least link to his actual work?
<evilvish>  yea,
<darkmatter> good morning children
<coz_> darkmatter,  hey guy
<darkmatter> mornin' coz_ /me finally figured out how to implement my activities ('desktops"/"workspaces" in common jargon) :D
<coz_> very cool :)
<darkmatter> coz_ by treating them kinda like windows xD
<darkmatter> coz_: do you remember amigas screens? you know, where you could "drag down" to peek underneath o toggle though the z-ordering, even grab from one screen to another (dnd). that's the inspiration, but taken further (while maintaining a pattern with windows). what if you could actually _move_ a workspace the way you move a window, or "iconify" it to an extent (think like the compiz shelf plugin, but a bit diff, but the same "shrink it"
<darkmatter> mentality)
<coz_> darkmatter,  cool...I sort of remember amigas stuff
<darkmatter> coz_ gotta sort it out a bit, but it fits, and brings a more balanced pattern to things, since a workspace is a window after a fashion (the desktop window). KISS and all ;p
<coz_> darkmatter,  sounds right... would love to see it in action :)
<darkmatter> coz_: but even though it would simplify pattern, when you think of "usage".. rawrrrrrrr! the power xD
<coz_> :)
<darkmatter> yes. I'm trying to merge even simplcity and "usabilty for stupid monkeys" with impossible levels of efficiency and multitasking. works in concept so far.
<coz_> darkmatter,  well I am absolutely confident you will get this up and running at some point :)
<coz_>   guys I have to break here,,, be back in a bit
<thorwil> http://jonathancarter.org/2011/03/15/new-edubuntu-wallpapers/
<evilvish> lol, i like his "don't panic" idea :)
<evilvish> thorwil: "And here I thought you 2 would be on the same team." cheeky ;p
<thorwil> :)
<evilvish> heh, i just thought that john dint realize mpt had filed the bug..
<thorwil> evilvish: i was tempted to note that apparently the design process is fucked up beyond hope, but decided to leave it with that comparatively friendly line
<evilvish> heh, yea.. Unity is in a bit of a design mess.. :s
<evilvish> btw, twas Bug #732653
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 732653 in unity "Menus are hidden by default" [Undecided,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/732653
<thorwil> just incredible disgraceful
 * thorwil wonders if disgraceful should be graceless 
<evilvish> it was funny when the bug was closed, its basically telling the guy who wrote the spec to bugger off!
<evilvish> hmm, i'm really liking the equinox engine â¦ especially works nice for a dark theme..
<coz_> hey all
<thorwil> coz_: so john is outright lying and still nothing happens?
<coz_> thorwil,  well apparently,,, and I am very disappointed
<coz_> thorwil,  I always assume there is a valid reason for someone's behavior ,, but I am puzzled by this one
<thorwil> when faced with insanity, a team/project must be able to shut out the troublemaker
<coz_> thorwil,  well  I suppose that is the alternative... I am just very puzzled about the his motivation
<coz_> If I were to pull something like this off,,, I would first offer up my work ,,, ask that others with similar skills get involved,, join to learn to increase their skills.. then eventually off ther work of the newly formed group as a valid alternative for  official eye to choose work
<coz_> offer there
<coz_> offer "their"
<coz_> damn fingers
<coz_> of course I would have to learn to type better
<coz_> :)
<coz_> I am not sure I have seen his work,,, nor any format ,,carefully thought out... that would also allow people to join to enhance and improve their personal skills,,  right now it is jump in and join regardless of capabilities... pixel pushers  I believe troy would say,,, although I like pushing about pixels :)
<coz_> I realize the "community" aspect of ubutnu is far overplayed and exagerated,, it still,, none the less ,, attracts people in the hopes of contributing,,, if I were to do this is would requre a greater set of skills  from the artist,, submissions of those skills.  and certainly the desire to pull from one another to improve those skills , with the hopes of creating a group of people who are "bulls"  at what they do ,, difficu
<coz_> lt to ignore
<evilvish>  <evilvish> kwwii: hey, any reason *not* to kick/ban john from the ML ?
<evilvish>  <evilvish> kwwii: he is repeatedly lying on the list and it seems time to end his nonsense
<evilvish>  <doctormo> evilvish: +1 from me
<evilvish> so, it would be great if kwwii bans him from both the ML and the LP teams or if he gave admin rights to someone who wants to do it ;)
<coz_> evilvish,  I just hate to see an action such as "banning"  to temporarily solve what may be a deeper issue
<evilvish> coz_: unfortunately, time for talking is over ;)
<evilvish> coz_: he does not reply to questions..
<coz_> evilvish,  I agree  and unfortunately I see no other alternative  to his non-response  responses
<coz_> I just wish I could understand the motivation
<coz_> I still dont know why withouth seeing some of his work
<coz_> is he that highly skilled to offer a valid alternative
<coz_> ??
<coz_> it just seems like wanting to get an "artist's  colony'
<coz_> going without and gudelines
<coz_> any not and
<evilvish> coz_: even if he is picasso , i dont think he can live above any community.. he needs to learn to work with others..
<coz_> evilvish,  well if he were picasso I would be on that side  :)
<evilvish> haha!
<coz_> evilvish,  that would stand a much better chance to eventually influence and potentially control ubuntu graphics inclusions
<evilvish> coz_: i'm just of the impression he is not of sane mind
<coz_> evilvish,  oh well I disagree there,, I think none of us understand his motivation,,, I dont think it "unsound"  we just dont understand why
 * evilvish doesnt think Picasso stands a chance against Mark ;p
<coz_> evilvish,   i think picasso is far more qalivided than mark
<coz_> qualified
<evilvish> coz_: qualified? yes! but will he be able to influence Ubuntu? doubtful ;)
<coz_> evilvish,  again i disagree,,, quality almost ,, in these situations... grab the attention of those who make final decisions...after all why not go for the best instead of  lesser
<thorwil> coz_: you can't just "require" more skill. those with the abilities are either just busy, or have so many other channels
<thorwil> coz_: but that general problem and what john is doing are entirely separate
<thorwil> coz_: he has his work in the flickr pools and has a blog at http://www.projblog.com/
 * evilvish caused the tangent by dropping Picasso's name :)
<coz_> let me look at that before i respond
<thorwil> and most amazingly: http://www.ubuntu-gallery.com/
<coz_> mm some of that is interesting
<coz_> I dont see much effort in composition there
<thorwil> coz_: examples of his work: http://www.ubuntu-gallery.com/?p=373
<thorwil> http://www.ubuntu-gallery.com/?p=165
<thorwil> http://www.ubuntu-gallery.com/?p=156
<thorwil> http://www.ubuntu-gallery.com/?p=118
<coz_> mmm
<thorwil> http://www.ubuntu-gallery.com/?p=403
<thorwil> http://www.ubuntu-gallery.com/?p=216
<thorwil> http://www.ubuntu-gallery.com/?p=206
<coz_> some are " lively"  " busy"  "colourful"
<coz_> I sort of like this one   http://www.ubuntu-gallery.com/?p=216
<coz_> a little busy for desktop wallpaper
<thorwil> coz_: now how exactly does his skill or lack thereof change anything about the fact that he distorts facts and sometimes tells outright lies?
<coz_> thorwil,   greater skills allow for greater visions and awareness ...the ability to discern bewteen appropriateness and dishevelment
<coz_> thorwil,  and the ability to recognize the skills in others that can
<thorwil> coz_: i suddenly lose all interest to talk with you
<coz_> lol
<coz_> thorwil,  well I take no offense to that
<coz_> but it does make one aware of your tolerance
<coz_> I cant judge this fellow with "ubuntu " specifically in mind...although that is most likely part of his motivation
<thorwil> he could combine the skills of da vinci, dali and le corbusiere (sp?), a lie is a lie and no way to work in a team
<coz_> thorwil,  that would be  not possible... with that kind of skill he would be the team
<coz_> no need for anyone else
<coz_> and we would benefit by his visions ...yes?
<thorwil> only if sabdfl would see it, too
<coz_> thorwil,  mark would be very well "swayed" by that kind of talent or be labled a fool
<coz_> if there is a "long term"  vision of ubuntu... this needs to be made more than clear by mark and whomever else would be responsible for that vision
<thorwil> coz_: i don't mean to be offensive, but this careful dancing around issues and always commenting with no action does get tiresome ;)
<coz_> thorwil,  no action?  I am not in the position to "act on any action"
<coz_> and if once made clear,,, it would be more than foolish not to use those capable of producing work that follows through with , enhances,, and makes real that visioni... so it could be a  team or an individual ....yes?
<thorwil> coz_: you bring up composition very often. perhaps you could have a lasting effect on others by offering a showcase?
<coz_> thorwil,  i have some of my work online already  ,, ready and willing to hear comments
<coz_> thorwil,  and skills at composition are pretty good
<coz_> it is the one absolute requirement for any work of art ,, graphics...music,, literature,, different media ,, different tools ,, identical mind set
<coz_> there are NO alternatives to it
<thorwil> the thing is, the field is often left to the clueless, sometimes on the list, very often on the forum. the silence of those who do know better leaves space for ignorance and misconceptions to bread
<coz_> thorwil,  boy I do agree with that
<coz_> thorwil,  I have tired to comment... I have been often s hot down for some comments in the past... I have tired to educate again with bad results ,,, mainly from "ubuntu" people
<coz_> I simply ignored and moved on... assuming they are fools and it is their loss not mine
<thorwil> must have been before my time :)
<coz_> most likely
<coz_> thorwil,  I had been banned on the foums for some of my work by those idiots
<coz_> forums
<thorwil> coz_: banned? i don't think you painted sexually explicit hog-riding midgets, or something?
<coz_> thorwil,  the biggest issue was a nude painting of one of the femaile developers...
<coz_> with her blessing
<thorwil> tricky
<coz_> apparenlty ,, even with the nude photos offered by ubuntu...a painting was sexually explicit
<coz_> no valid reason for the ban nor any reason I should coninue to offer any one the opportunity to speak with me about techniques
<coz_> so , in some sense. i come to this john issue with a slightly different perspective,,,  is what he is doing a valid alternative to "the team"  ,, is it a " I will get even"   or a blatent,, " i dont give a shit what you say"
<thorwil> coz_: finally i understand your take
<coz_> I dont know... what I do know is he does ignore,, evade... and lie
<coz_> but "why" is still the question
<coz_> and I believe an important one to have answered,,, but to this point ,, I dont see that being done willingly with john
<thorwil> i'd make why optional and put it behind john facing consequences
<coz_> thorwil,  in the end ,, I believe it is up to you guys who may have far more influence on the "official" side than I do
<thorwil> i created consequences of another kind and scope. a trigger for some reconsiderations, but apparently not enough
<coz_> thorwil,  and I understand your frustrations around this issue
<coz_> thorwil,  personally ,,although I would like to know "why" he is doing this,,, in reality ,, it certainly can be distruptive to the team...
<coz_> is he essentially "forking"  the team?
<coz_> or attempting to do so?
<thorwil> i think you just have to realize that it just doesn't make sense. looks  like a mild form of insanity to me, having issues with living in this reality (i mean, sharing it even less than most of us do).
<evilvish> coz_: "why" is a great question.. but how can we get the answer out of him?
<coz_> evilvish,  I know ,, and that is continually both frustrating and disappointing
<evilvish> coz_: i dont think we are allowed to do water-boarding ;p
<coz_> lol
<coz_> dam  you are evil
<coz_> :)
<coz_> I am most certainly commited to fine work...in art,, regarless if I can match , with my skills, the level i would expect from others
<evilvish> coz_: everytime he is asked the question, his tangential response is why i drew the conclusion he is not of sane mind :)
<coz_> I do expect a wider vision ,, an more encompassing understanding,, both of what is expected by "us"  and how others respond to those expectations
<coz_> evilvish, l understand for sure
<coz_> evilvish,  I am just ,,not sure it is a "empty"  project coming from him..rather ,, I believe there is a hidden agenda ,, or motivation for this
<coz_> at the very least.. i hope that is the case
<evilvish> coz_: well, whatever it maybe, hidden/awesome/creepy/.. i dont really care.. ;)
<coz_> :)
<coz_> evilvish,  and again I cant disagree with that too much :)
<evilvish> coz_: he is not allowed to use the team name for _his_ and only his own interest..
<evilvish> coz_: seriously I dont care, if he succeeds or fails too.. i dont mind either way.. :)
<coz_> evilvish,  well see that is part of the puzzlement... is he doing this selfishly?  because it seems to me he is quite the "pied piper"
<coz_> evilvish,  in know how you feel, and I am inclined to agree
<coz_> evilvish, I was just surprised about the last  mailing list entry he made
<evilvish> exactly!
<coz_> perhaps I believe he is "more inteligent" than he really is
<evilvish> heh..
<coz_> evilvish,  i always make an erroneous  assumtion that anyone seriously persuing fine art ,, is inteligent,, believe me I already know the folly in that mindset :)
<evilvish> lol!!!
<coz_> if those previous links are indeed his work ,, I dont see a serious artist at work
<coz_> however we start where we are with what we have,, which is where my mistake comes in,, assuming there is desire to gain higher end knowledge and skills
<evilvish> coz_: i think you are over-estimating him.. you seem to assume he has a bigger vision for Ubuntu design.. i believe you are mistaken on that part..
<coz_> evilvish,  very well could be and most likely your are correct :)
<evilvish> I'm pretty sure, there is no Design vision
<coz_> evilvish,  damn you are evil bursting my bubbble like that   lol
<coz_> evilvish,  so I bow to the decisions about this particular issue to you and thorwil  and whomever is going to make the final decisions
<evilvish> coz_: no need to bow to our decisions.. you can surely state your mind and if possible try to fix john :)
<coz_> evilvish,  well I hate fixing people :)  they often resent me for th at
<coz_> :)
<coz_> evilvish,  i admit to wanting to have a one on one with him
<evilvish> coz_: heh, fix the right people who would appreciate your effort ;)
<coz_> evilvish,   well i have tried once with john and of course.. as will all of you ,, i was ignored
<evilvish> :)
<evilvish> coz_: i'm hoping for kwwii to get online soonish..
<coz_> cool
<coz_> evilvish,  this will make a difference?
<evilvish> hmm, not sure.. ;)
<coz_> ah ok
<coz_>   ok I need to break for supper ,, be back in a bit
<coz_> hey agll
<coz_>  rather hey all
#ubuntu-artwork 2011-03-16
<coz_> good day all
<matthewmain> hi all
<coz_> matthewmain,  hey guy
<matthewmain> hows tricks
<coz_> matthewmain,  same old same old  I guess :)
<matthewmain> fair enough well im new to ubuntu so please forgive me, but i was reading the community pages and discovered about making artwork for the community and projects, im no master graphic designer but i do have a passion to learn, im currently teaching myself XHTML and CSS i also use Coreldraw x5 on windows 7, but i really want to make a leap forward into ubuntu and get more into graphic design and web design, the best way for me to learn
<matthewmain>  is to do, and for that helping with projects for ubuntu is a good reason.
<coz_> matthewmain,  well...applications on linux for graphics are mainly   Inkscape for vector drawing  better than Illustrator,,  gimp for bitmap ... agave for color choosing...mypaint for natural media  similar to corel Painter
<coz_> matthewmain,  there is also Pencil which is a minor flash equivelent of  adobe flash
<coz_> and  Pinta   a sort of clone for  paint.net
<coz_> matthewmain,  do you have examples of some of your work?
<coz_> matthewmain,  they dont have to be OS related
<matthewmain> my work is nothing amazing, mainly photography based and as i said im learning xhtml and css, but i would in some shape or form be able to help on a project
<coz_> matthewmain,  that's cool...
<matthewmain> i have a lot to learn, and to have a goal to reach will push me to learn, rather than just making silly stuff that will never be used or work
<coz_> matthewmain,  if you look at the links in the Topic it will get you started with areas of possible contribution options I believe
<coz_> http://design.canonical.com/2011/01/bright-light-and-beautiful/
<coz_> http://design.canonical.com/2011/01/the-natty-wallpaper-contest-an-important-update/
<coz_> http://design.canonical.com/2011/01/free-culture-showcase/
<coz_> etc
<coz_> although I believe most of the wallpapers have been chosen,,, although there may still be time for that
<matthewmain> ok cool i will check those out while a do a full install of 10.10 on my laptop
<matthewmain> what areas do you work on
<coz_> matthewmain,  what you should probably do is stick around on this channel and ask others like vish  aka eveilvish... thorwil    kwwii
<coz_> matthewmain,  not much for me...  we really dont have "power" over content,,, occasionally a call for graphics is sent out,,, as in the wallpaper contest..but dont let that discourage you
<coz_> matthewmain,  here is some of my  OS unrelated work  although there is one wallpaper on there     http://www.flickr.com/photos/coz_
<coz_> matthewmain,  I realize my stuff is not that great but I never claimed to be "king of art"  :)
<matthewmain> coz_, are they all ahnd drawn?
<coz_> matthewmain,  yes except for the ones marked as  "digital"
<coz_> matthewmain,  and even those are essentially hand drawn on a computer
<matthewmain> coz_, you have more talent than me, i mainly look at photography and digital art
<coz_> matthewmain,  no no no
<coz_> matthewmain,  dont confuse the ability to draw  as art
<coz_> matthewmain,  drawing has nothing to do with art.. it is simply draftmenship
<coz_> matthewmain,  the key is in composing the final work be it photography,,, abstract  etc etc
<matthewmain> well i can;t draw full stop lol
<coz_> matthewmain,  a keen sense of desing,, line...colour... values.. are the keys to fine art
<coz_> design
<coz_> matthewmain,  no biggie,,, draftsmanship is way over rated :)
<matthewmain> i will see if i can find some examples of what i would like to be able to do
<coz_> matthewmain,   absolutely,, just remember that your design sense your compositional sense is the key,, how you place the objects in the photograph  etc etc :)
<coz_> matthewmain,  you will have a unique personal sense at to where you place things withing the photograph,, that's what needs to be honed,,
<coz_> as to
<matthewmain> i know, but with out the knowledge to use the software to get the desired effects there is no point in having an idea
<coz_> matthewmain,  thats the least you will have to concentrate on
<coz_> matthewmain,  the "vocabulary"  of an application...meanning how it works ,,,where things are...how to use them... is not going to take a long time
<matthewmain> http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://wallpaperstock.net/hearts-for-abstract_wallpapers_8170_1280x960.jpg&imgrefurl=http://wallpaperstock.net/hearts-for-abstract_wallpapers_8170_1280x960_1.html&usg=__i3ameQ5O1nw68_47YELPHOEJH8c=&h=960&w=1280&sz=182&hl=en&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=A72Fxm7idEud0M:&tbnh=124&tbnw=187&ei=ScqATaHhKdG0hAeDqPSuBw&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dabstract%2Bwallpaper%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26biw%3D1366%26bih%3D565%26tbs%3Dis
<matthewmain> ch:1&um=1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=1070&vpy=264&dur=976&hovh=194&hovw=259&tx=174&ty=154&oei=ScqATaHhKdG0hAeDqPSuBw&page=1&ndsp=18&ved=1t:429,r:17,s:0
<coz_> matthewmain,  your ideas are within your mind already... getting used to application control is the easy part :)
<coz_> matthewmain,  there you go
<matthewmain> i hope so, i can us photoshop but have been struggling with corel draw, things just dont seem to flow right
<coz_> matthewmain,  no corel draw is ,, in my opinion...way outdated
<matthewmain> thats the sort of thing i want to be able to do
<coz_> matthewmain,  cool
<coz_> matthewmain,  that can be done in inkscape as well  which is vector
<matthewmain> http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.piculous.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/__light_wallpaper_2___by_whitespiritwolf.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.piculous.com/10-most-creative-abstract-wallpapers/&usg=__lLg7D8WY5VCyXu5FC-Sn5wr9mbw=&h=563&w=900&sz=87&hl=en&start=54&zoom=1&tbnid=oydJ8cIBFec8MM:&tbnh=126&tbnw=182&ei=0MqATeisE8H94Ab76ujVBw&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dabstract%2Bwallpaper%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26biw%3D1366%26bih%3D565%26tbs%
<matthewmain> 3Disch:10%2C1254&um=1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=307&vpy=210&dur=592&hovh=177&hovw=284&tx=190&ty=122&oei=ScqATaHhKdG0hAeDqPSuBw&page=4&ndsp=18&ved=1t:429,r:1,s:54&biw=1366&bih=565
<coz_> matthewmain,  inkscape may take a while to understand the "geography" or "vocabulary" of the application
<matthewmain> theres another look
<coz_> matthewmain,  very cool
<matthewmain> what i need to do is learn how to turn a simple idea into something that amazing
<coz_> matthewmain,  well that is going to be a combination of learning the application of course... but more importantly understanding and listening to your personal  "artist"s eye"
<matthewmain> i can see ideas that i want to do, but when it come to mouse to screen it nevers goes right, i dont seem to be able to break down the idea in the right way or software control never happens
<coz_> matthewmain,  that is partly inexperience with the application ...
<coz_> matthewmain,  dont let it discourage future attempts
<coz_> matthewmain,  digital art is complex only because the application itself adds another "learning curve"  to the project
<matthewmain> another thing i find hard is that there are tones of tuts for photoshop, but hardly any for corel
<coz_> matthewmain,  well there are millions of tons of tutorials and video tutorials for inkscape  and gimp
<matthewmain> yeh im gonna start learning, im just gonna find it diffrent from what i was bought up on i.e photoshop
<coz_> if you prefer vector art ,,,  which is rescalable withouth loss  the inkscape is the way to go... if you like the bitmap ...jpeg,,,png then gimp
<coz_> matthewmain,  which version of photoshop  are you running?
<matthewmain> i dont run it anymore, i can;t afford the software, but back when i was in school, i may have borrowed a copy of the first cs from the web sum where
<coz_> matthewmain,  ok if you get the chance to have another cd  ,,,most versions of photoshop can be installed onto ubuntu after installing an application named "wine"
<coz_> as are many other windows appliations
<matthewmain> yup i have wine, just let down that the coreldraw install crash's and wont complete
<coz_> or just dual boot windows and linux
<coz_> or virtual box install of windows
<matthewmain> well thats what im doing at the moment but i want to lose the fat slob and stick with streamlined and slick interface
<coz_> matthewmain,  well as you already know..linux can be set to look any way you want ;)
<matthewmain> lol
<matthewmain> i just fined win 7 to be a very slow peice of crap
<coz_> matthewmain,  ah yes I have experience win7   although it's appearance was actually taken from kde4's interface
<matthewmain> intresting
<coz_> matthewmain, kde4 of course is a linux desktop environment
<matthewmain> i much prefer the look and feel to ubuntu
<coz_> matthewmain,    yes but you can make it look like win7  or mac if you want :)
<matthewmain> would a osx version of cs work on ubuntu?
<matthewmain> why ruin the unqiue look of a good os?
<coz_> matthewmain,  not that I am aware of .. i dont know of any mac emulators ...although mac is unix based,, and the applications..theoretically should work on linux  ,,,apple prevents that
<matthewmain> yeh its just that i own a mac and if i was to by cs then it would be the mac conterpart
<coz_> matthewmain,  excellent question... i still dont know why people make linux look like mac  :(
<coz_> matthewmain,  well you could dual boot macos  with ubuntu on the same machine
<coz_> or use macs virtual machine to install ubuntu
<matthewmain> but thats hassle i would prefer it to be streamlined lol
<matthewmain> i guess they change the look of an os to help with transition between diffrent os's
<coz_> matthewmain,  understood..although because of apple's unique systems integration ,, which is why it costs so much,,,ubuntu would run very well
<matthewmain> i may look in to it,
<coz_> matthewmain,  whichever configuration you choose,,, the applications are what are going to be the key
<matthewmain> it all depends on what i decide to do i guess
<matthewmain> yeh
<coz_> matthewmain,  yes there are several options in your case for system config..
<matthewmain> yup, well i have to play and see how i progress
<coz_> matthewmain,  for sure.. and please go to #ubuntu for specific help with issues concerning ubuntu...most helpful in that channel :)
<matthewmain> but one thing for sure is i will prob be designing on linux and osx
<coz_> matthewmain,  both are excellent choices :)
<matthewmain> what systems and apps do you use from day to day
<coz_> matthewmain,   I use mainly ubuntu,, I dual boot with windows  when I need specific things...window for music composition and linux mainly for graphics
<coz_> matthewmain,  but I am generally on ubuntu most of the day
<matthewmain> fair enough
<coz_> matthewmain,  I havent been composing lately so windows sits idle :)
<matthewmain> why windows for music composition
<coz_> matthewmain,  well ,, I started out with windows and music and have specific applications I have become accustomed to... I have macs  but I find windows a better platform  than mac for this
<coz_> matthewmain,   I know that is against most  opinions on the topic :)
<coz_> matthewmain,  I havent used a mac in years
<coz_> matthewmain,  and I started with an SE/30  which is sitting across the room right now ...
<coz_> black and white monitor  lol
<matthewmain> ok, i just found the kernal in windows to be shit lol, found tones of latency problems, some i may have been able to help but was not viable at the time
<coz_> matthewmain,  ah on win7  that is the case
<coz_> matthewmain,  manny complaints about latency issues on win7
<matthewmain> i had a fair number with xp as well
<coz_> matthewmain,   xp does the job for me ,,
<coz_> matthewmain,  for music anyway
<coz_> matthewmain, although there are exceptinal digital workstations for linux   "ardour"  and a lowlatency kernel as well
<coz_> matthewmain,  however the learning curve for ardour is too much for me at this point...
<matthewmain> fair enough, i was using cubase sx and reason back in the day, but i fell out of love for the technical side for music and got very bored, but i have recenlty started playing again
<coz_> matthewmain,  very cool... I try to keep it simple ... I use a little app  ntrack studio along with  wavelab by steinberg... and a roland xv-88 keyboard
<matthewmain> nice
<coz_> matthewmain,  well...it works for me :)
<matthewmain> mine was simple too, audidgy plat + maudio controller and then software
<coz_> matthewmain,  yep... I find the simpler the number of applications the more can be done
<coz_> matthewmain,  there are too many out there that can only confuse and waste time,,, in my opinion
<matthewmain> yes very agreed
<matthewmain> my dam laptop is playing around lol
<coz_> :)
<matthewmain> it never likes freshly burned disc, i always have to rub them on something before the laptop will play them right
<coz_> oooo
<coz_> matthewmain,  do you smoke?
<matthewmain> yes
<matthewmain> but i dont smoke in the house
<coz_> matthewmain,  ah ok because cigarette smoke will eventually destroy a cdplayer
<coz_> it stains the lazer lens... I have not found a way to remove stains from a lens
<matthewmain> isopropa alcohol should do it
<coz_> matthewmain,  not sure
<coz_> matthewmain,  my nephew smokes cigars.. and has already destroyed  5 cdroms
<matthewmain> nice
<coz_> matthewmain,  he bought me a new one  and I keep that in a box and only attacth it via usb when I need it
<coz_> and of course I make  him smoke outside now :)
<matthewmain> cool
<matthewmain> well as soon as the laptop has a fresh copy of ubuntu on it im gonna start looking for these tuts and look towards learning a few new programs
<coz_> matthewmain,  excellent!  start with inkscape and gimp :)
<matthewmain> yup will do, im running ubuntu on this machine but this is dual boxed so im gonna see how ubuntu squares up on my lap top
<coz_> matthewmain,  cool  the next release of ubunt is at the end of April this year...
<matthewmain> i heard it sometimes better to leave it a month before updating
<coz_> matthewmain,  well  if you mean updating to a new version..then I generally tell people to simply back up what they need to save and then clean install the new version...this eliminates and upgrading issues that more often than not occur,,, however some people do just fine with it :)
<matthewmain> ok will bare that in mind
<matthewmain> so where do i find the current projects that are needing work
<coz_> matthewmain,  check the links in the topic for this channel
<coz_> Channel for Community Artwork Team: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork | Ubuntu Brand Identity Guidelines are available at: http://design.canonical.com/the-toolkit/ubuntu-brand-guidelines/ | Looking for ways to contribute to Ubuntu? Â» http://is.gd/iwunay ; http://is.gd/edapuj ; http://is.gd/suhucu
<matthewmain> thank you
<coz_> matthewmain,  no problem
<matthewmain> will have a look see what they need doing and start working i guess, are you always around/ what time frame are you on?
<coz_> matthewmain,  generall here everyday... and as I said also speak with vish aka evilvish  :)  thorwill  and kwwii
<matthewmain> kk
<coz_> ok I need to break here,,, be back later
* vish changed the topic of #ubuntu-artwork to: Channel for Community Artwork Team: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork | Ubuntu Brand Identity Guidelines are available at: http://design.canonical.com/the-toolkit/ubuntu-brand-guidelines/ | Looking for ways to contribute to Ubuntu? Wait for announcements related to Oneiric release | Contests for previous cycle Â» http://is.gd/iwunay ; http://is.gd/edapuj ; http://is.gd/suhucu
* vish changed the topic of #ubuntu-artwork to: Channel for Community Artwork Team: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork | Ubuntu Brand Identity Guidelines are available at: http://design.canonical.com/the-toolkit/ubuntu-brand-guidelines/ | Contests for Natty cycle CLOSED Â» http://is.gd/iwunay ; http://is.gd/edapuj ; http://is.gd/suhucu | Looking for ways to contribute to Ubuntu? Wait for announcements related to Oneiric release
<coz_> hey all
<zniavre> hey alone
<zniavre> do you hav any script to say "hey all" in all room you entered  coz_  ?
<zniavre> :o)
<coz_> zniavre,  no I use  /amsg thenwhat ever I want to say example    /amsg  hey guys
<coz_> zniavre,  it will then say "hey guys" on all channels and servers I have set
<coz_> zniavre,  of course many  channels dont like it so I dont do it that often because it lights up all the channels people are on
<zniavre> :o)
<coz_> zniavre,  I am on xchat so if I type /amsg and the message that's what happens..sorry I should have explained that better
<zniavre> it's ok thank you
<darkmatter> freezing. rain. gah.
 * darkmatter sighs
<darkmatter> good day to y'all anyway
<coz_> darkmatter,  oo freezing rain is always  bad
<darkmatter> coz_: guess I'm stayng in for the rest of the week :P
<coz_> darkmatter,  its' suppose to last all week?
<coz_> Weather for: Pittsburgh, PA Updated: Wed, 16 March 2011 20:51:00 GMT Conditions are: Overcast Current temperature: 44Â°F/7Â°C Humidity: 82% Wind: From the West â at 8 MPH
<darkmatter> coz_: no. it's just cold ish here in a day or two. = ice more slippery than an oil slick
<coz_> for sure about the ice
<darkmatter> brb. empathy is pretending it's intelligent again...
<darkmatter> coz_: figured out a lot more crap last night. still a long way to go, but getting there ;)
<coz_> darkmatter,  I do not doubt you :)
<coz_> if anyone is in terested ,, this site    www.ted.com   has videos of remarkabale people with sometimes quite remarkable ideas... there is comedy there also
<darkmatter> coz_: I've had ted in my podcasts for like... years. awesome stuff
<coz_> darkmatter,  cool   its a new discovery for me  and I am very very impressed :)
<darkmatter> :)
<coz_> very inspriing at times
<darkmatter> yes. now if only ted could inspire my "panel" revisions. hehe
<coz_> :)
<darkmatter> coz_: I can't decide though. but I'm thinking global menu (ala amiga, not "macish") for the sake of consistency. I'd just leave them in app, but meh. theres consistency issues, the fact I don't like menubars, and the fact that menu buttons are just as bad in some ways :P
<coz_> darkmatter,  yeah I guess you have to use the lest of the evil ...yes?
<darkmatter> coz_: but regardless, still the same influences. the best from amiga, beos, classic nix: reimagined and brought > to a new way of doing stuff (as in, not nostalgic, but as in "that was an awesome feature, why did it have to die?"). all about efficient, friendly, humanized computing. not about "feeling old" :P
<coz_> darkmatter,  it dies because either  no one remembers them...or they think they can do better and ineveitably break the origianl concept
<darkmatter> coz_: yeah. and the amiga approach was nice for another reason: space reusage. it was an autohide thing (basically uby copied it, but not as well in many ways). but basically, you could fill the panel with all kinds of useful crap (granted most third party, and horriblr manual configuration and stuff, but this is the 80's were referencing ;)), then key combo, right click would change the panel mode to menu. of course will do it diffe
<darkmatter> rently (and without "omg! need options!" crap, but yeah...
<darkmatter> but you almost "never" needed to access a menu anyway :P
<darkmatter> coz_: yup. they like killing stuff randomly. I mean, the "bad" parts, sure. but if you look at all the "good" that got killed with it. I mean, drag-to-install (the amiga version of it) was pure love. tracker in beos, I don't care how much more robust things have become, current file managers (not just on *nix, but mac/win as well) can barely touch it. or be's find. lol. we have semantic searches that "just barely" do what that did, e
<darkmatter> tc
<coz_> ok I have to break here beback in a bit
<darkmatter> coz_: that's the things I miss. not the "my ui looks like it was built in lego!", but some of the conceppts/ideas that got trashed in favor of "our way is better, because we think we're cool!" ;P
#ubuntu-artwork 2011-03-17
<coz_> hey all
 * vish renames "Ayatana Discussion" mailing list to "Submit your new mockup" ML
 * thorwil renames vish to "ayathusiast"
<vish> haha!
<vish> thorwil: not much of an enthusiast nowadays.. :s
<vish> thorwil: and judging from mpt's reply to ScottK wrt menugate, things dont seem to be going quite right â¦
<thorwil> vish: i guess Conscious User is spot on regarding how this *design* came to be
<vish> thorwil: oh?
<vish> i might have missed it..
<vish> well, it seems an Obvious Markâ¢ decision..
<thorwil> https://lists.launchpad.net/ayatana/msg05133.html
<vish> ha!
<thorwil> i have been wondering about a quiz to guard entrance to discussion as they *should* happen on ayatana
<thorwil> maybe one question could be: Is giving the user an option if you can't decide which way to go a solution?
<vish> isnt that what happens in a lot of the designs.. people might say Mark is not a designer, but neither are a lot of folks doing design in GNOME..
<vish> i meant that^ for CU's reply
<thorwil> well, it's hard to *not* run into this trap of one decision ending up requiring several other problematic ones
<vish> thats what a good design(er) is supposed to ensure does not happen
<vish> otherwise, it is just making this up as we hit something ;p
<vish> s/this/things
 * vish lols at thorwil's Quiz idea..
<vish> user answers "YES" ~> instant kick from mailing list
<matthewmain> ola
<thorwil> aloha
<vish> ~.~
<matthewmain> got a quick question for you other art guys
<matthewmain> i found this image and would like to recreat it but i want to know how the blade was made http://www.psistorm.eu/blog.php?page=blog_id&id=257
<matthewmain> http://www.psistorm.eu/images/races/starcraft2_protoss_wallpaper.jpg
<matthewmain> can anyone shed some light
<vish> matthewmain: well, start with a base outline shape; and then define the outlines, highlights and shades.. (thats probably as verbose as i can get :D )
<vish> its all about choosing the right color for the shine, metal, and keeping the right angles for the shine and shade..
<matthewmain> i made something similar but its no where close to look that cool and intense
<thorwil> matthewmain: i don't know how it has been made, but it's sure within the realm of what can be done with inkscape
<vish> yup..
<thorwil> (where inkscape would make it easier than gimp or photoshop)
<matthewmain> kk well here is my attempt please dont laugh to the wallpaper it all out of alignment and no where near finished but a ruft draft link to follow
<matthewmain> http://img708.imageshack.us/i/protossbeveledwallpaper.jpg/
<matthewmain> simple idea i know, but i want the blade to look as good as the other one
<thorwil> matthewmain: get rid of the blurred blue, at least as long as you work on the blade, it will only distract you
<matthewmain> oh i did when i was trying to work on it, if i try to push it anymore it looks really unrealistic
<thorwil> matthewmain: then the first obvious difference are the edges. yours don't have a surface to speak of
 * thorwil wonders what to call the angled surfaces tapering to the cutting edge
<matthewmain> bevel, there is one there
<thorwil> oh please, *study* your reference
<matthewmain> ?
<matthewmain> i did apply a bevel of around 10px
<thorwil> you created a beveled plate. not a blade
<matthewmain> ok so manually make a bevel
<matthewmain> rather than adding an effect
<thorwil> yes
<matthewmain> sweet ok i will give that a try
<matthewmain> cheers for you help and idea
<thorwil> the fun thing about chrome and reflective surfaces in general, is that you would get to see things that are not in the picture
<thorwil> so once you have such a surface, you have to think about the room/environment, to get it right
<matthewmain> ok will bare that in mind
<thorwil> photographers will sometimes place boards specifically to appear in the reflections, to make them simple and of a desired color
<matthewmain> yup i have used such techniques to bounce flash to get coloured hues into a shot
<coz_> hey all
<darkmatter> coz_
<coz_> darkmatter,  hey guy
 * darkmatter lols at the wonderful "awesomeness" of ubuntus versions of popular software and then pokes coz_ for kicks
<coz_> :)
<vish> yea.. its all b'cause of coz_
<coz_> :)
<darkmatter> coz_ yet again I leave and rejoin irc. just waiting for someone to ask if I'm having network issues again so I can explain how leaky software isn't a network issue xD
<coz_> darkmatter,  :)
<coz_> well definilty this next ubuntu release is causing issues for testers and apparenlty developers also
<coz_> I believe once released it will have more negative comments than any other ubuntu version
<darkmatter> coz_: yeah. played with it in a vm. almost shot myself in the face. lol
<coz_> lol
<vish> the problem with unity right now, is that most of the people "liking" it are docky fans â¦
<vish> not that docky fan is a disease ;p
<darkmatter> coz_: I'm going to stick with a click to focus but not raise on focus policy with windowmanagement. because it solved most of my client issues (young and old alike), personal issues. and my my wifes nervous pc-breakdowns :P
<darkmatter> coz_: I don't like docks, but you already knew that
<darkmatter> moving targets are a pita ;)
<coz_> darkmatter,  yeah .. even though I think cairo dock is the best I only use it to creat themes ,,, and do support although I think I am going to quit cairo dock support
<coz_> I got kicked as op  somehow :(
<vish> " got kicked as op"  huh??
<coz_> vish,  yeah one day I was still op  next day  not
<coz_> vish,  I havent spoken to the guys about it but   still..at least give me warning
<vish> hmm, maybe the auto op thing dint work..
<coz_> vish,  mm  not sure I have ops in #compiz  but we generally dont use it unless we have doofy people :)
<darkmatter> coz_ i prefer shelf-like concepts. I like a _dock_ that does not manage windows, but rather manages info and activities. could be tied to an app, but regardless. I also believe in things being representative of the "task at hand". ui's have becone wayyy to messy
<coz_> i can try to grab ops in cairo-dock  let me test
<coz_> nope  no go
<coz_> darkmatter,  yeah i just dont visualize solutions as well as you do with gui
<coz_> darkmatter,  I have not thought much about it though,,,  all I know is I like tabbed windows   / moveable tabs .. stacking / grouping  and a few things that stand out in mind  but then you know that was default BeOs  :)
<coz_> darkmatter,  we had a 20 minute discussion in compiz -dev some months ago about a new window doecorator,,, moveable tabs... moveable title bars and a bunch of cool stuff... and  then "nothing"  :)
<darkmatter> coz_: yeah. I know the feeliing *sighs*
<darkmatter> coz_: although I think beyond 'yet another decorator". more "ground > up". because, no offence to compize. but there are things it'll never get right. it's because, even though its a composit wm, the way it does thing seems less like a compositing wm, and more a compositor trying to masquerade as a wm
<darkmatter> coz_: but part of that is the apparent "need" to paint fire on the screen ;p
<darkmatter> read: please every entity under the sun
<coz_> darkmatter,   :) yes  everyone youtubes  fire :)
<darkmatter> coz_: I believe in: build wm with sane/good feature set > composit with sane animations or whatever. and no, I'm not going to pluf in another 200 lines of code, modular or not, because you want reflections, damnit :D
<darkmatter> coz_: what you see should basically be what you get (within reason)
<coz_> darkmatter,  :)  well there are some things in compiz that even though useless... snow plugins...were really cool. but they are screwed up now
<darkmatter> plug*
<coz_> I am concerned about what appears to be somewhat of a "regression" in compiz... old errors...old bugs.... ghosts of compiz past
<coz_> mark hired sam at canonical ..but I think we need a few more "paid"  developers...one isnt enough
<darkmatter> coz_: part of that is the whole "insanely modular" approach. I know it's an overused saying. but it is true: "the more complicated the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain"
<coz_> darkmatter,  this is true,,, as far as compiz ,, I think sam is a bit overwhelmed ,, but that's just me looking in
<coz_> I think I am irc saturated,, I am going for a break
#ubuntu-artwork 2011-03-18
<coz_>  hey all
<thorwil> http://open.knome.fi/2011/03/18/xubuntu-natty-default-wallpaper/
<thorwil> why was i ever so dumb to work out a spec like https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Specs/0007_Xubuntu_Natty_Wallpaper
<thorwil> only for those guys apparently aiming at to "achieve a mostly blue-toned, blurred wallpaper, but with some green hues to try to step out of the all-blue image of Xubuntu"
<thorwil> if i wasn't done with this shit already, i would be now
<evilvish> gosh! yea.. i just saw the post and went wtf!!
<coz_> hey guys
<darkmatter> heya coz_
<coz_> darkmatter,  hey guy.. sorry   for delay,, busy here
<darkmatter> coz_: no problems. busy here as well
<coz_> cool
<kwwii> sometimes....
#ubuntu-artwork 2011-03-19
<thorwil> sometimes i'm still surprised by certain comments: http://thorwil.wordpress.com/2011/03/19/ours-is-better-than-theirs/#comment-3933
<vish> beauty lies in the eye of the beholder.. similarly perception! ;)
<vish> thorwil: btw, do you hand draw those figures or do it on inkscape with mouse?
<vish> hand-draw with tablet*
<thorwil> if anyone ends up putting it into that context, i wonder what the supposed message would be?
<thorwil> vish: tablet drawn in mypaint
<thorwil> but i can't really advice that, as you still get more control on paper. and scaling the image down can become an issue, with jagged lines
<vish> cool! i've wondered how you worked on those, earlier too when you did some images( for brainstorm?)
<thorwil> vish: rough sketches for brainstorm? scanned pen or pencil
<vish> hmm, not brainstorm i think you had something about guys pulling in different directions
<vish> something about collaboration..
<thorwil> http://thorwil.wordpress.com/2010/03/09/design-in-collaborative-projects/
<vish> ha! nearly 1yr later.. :)
<vish> yea, that one :)
<thorwil> pencil, but i'm actually not sure whether i penned them on paper, too, or traced them in gimp
<thorwil> a case where i used inkscape is http://thorwil.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/bar_chart_ninjas_s.png
<vish> yea, these guys seem less hand-drawn/free lines
<vish> hmm, we seem to be having some issue or the other every so often..
<thorwil> hmm?
<vish> thorwil: what issue was that design-in-collaborative-projects/ relating to? or what was the happening thing back then?
<vish> rather the "happening" thing
<thorwil> not a specific event, just a consequence of my observations
<vish> ah :)
<thorwil> http://www.opensource-usability-labs.com/tine20/2011/03/18/designer-vs-developer/
<coz_>  hey all
#ubuntu-artwork 2012-03-12
<rinser> hi guys
<rinser> how do I upload art work to wiki.ubuntu.com ?? anyone?
<rinser> I created an account and logged in, but still cannot upload anything
#ubuntu-artwork 2012-03-17
<BigMonMulgrew> Hi guys, My first time here so glad to see there is someone on. I've just been looking around the ubuntu wiki and was wondering how to submit artwork. I may be being stupid or blind.
#ubuntu-artwork 2013-03-16
<giacomoa> hi all
<giacomoa> !
<giacomoa> i've got a question for the "artists" behind the ubuntu touch project, i hope i'm in the right place :)
<giacomoa> hey?
<Lacaster> Hi
<giacomoa> hi lacaster are you in the ubuntt-touch artis team? cause i wanna ask if someone know what software did they use for the presentation of the ubuntu-touch project
<giacomoa> the video of mark showing ubuntu on phones and tablet
<giacomoa> do you know anything?
<Lacaster> No. I don't
<Lacaster> First time in this Irc Channel
<giacomoa> ok thank you :)
#ubuntu-artwork 2015-03-09
<knome> wow, is this channel empty or what. hey pleia2, hey zequence!
<pleia2> heh
<knome> apparently nobody cares about the example-content package too much any more
<pleia2> I think I joined when someone joined the artwork list with the grand idea of creating an ubuntu artwork channel "but there already is one"
<knome> it used to have flavor logos; no more
<pleia2> what does it have?
<knome> it only has a video clip and a CC licensed song
<pleia2> hah
<knome> exactly same content/version since saucy
<knome> funnily enough, it has 5 open bugs
<knome> i think the package should really be killed or refreshed hugely
<pleia2> how do people learn that it exists?
<knome> umm
<knome> i *guess* a shortcut is added to the homedir
<pleia2> oh, example-content that ships with ubuntu
<knome> hmm, setup mentions Mirv
<knome> maybe i should poke him..
<knome> but seriously, the package is so meh :)
<knome> we don't even pull it in (any more at least) with xubuntu
<knome> hehe, there's an idea to ship vcards for all ubuntu members
<knome> ;)=
#ubuntu-artwork 2017-03-18
<Cyber_Akuma> Hello, I wanted to use my inkjet to print a label for the Ubuntu 16.10 disk I burned, are there any official cd labels for it?
