#ubuntu-doc 2005-04-25
<mkde> anyone around?
<jsgotangco> mdke, ping
<jsgotangco> Burgey!!!
<Burgundavia> salut
<jsgotangco> i got the commit account from james already
<Burgundavia> cool
<Burgundavia> I need to email my new kye
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, when you commit, do you just commit the diff file or the whole xml file?
<Burgundavia> just change the file
<Burgundavia> then commit
<jsgotangco> commit the whole file?
<Burgundavia> and it will do all the fancy stuff for you
<jsgotangco> ahh
<Burgundavia> change and save the file
<Burgundavia> ala a normal document on your system
<jsgotangco> ok i will test out my account then
<jsgotangco> no i changed the actual file
<Burgundavia> just make a small change, like a typo, if you want to test it out
<Burgundavia> and always make small changes
<jsgotangco> yeah thats what i did
<jsgotangco> ok its working now
<Burgundavia> saw the change in email
<jsgotangco> ahhh so everything is automatic
<jsgotangco> in ubuntu-doc-commits?
<Burgundavia> ubuntu-doc-commits merely shows what has been changed
<jsgotangco> ok how did you get the email?
<Burgundavia> you need to subscribe to the list
<jsgotangco> im subscribed to ubuntu-doc and ubuntu-doc-commits did i miss anything?
<Burgundavia> check you email
<Burgundavia> you change should be there
<jsgotangco> none yet gmail is kinda slow on this but i verified it on the archives it showed diff output so i guess it worked
<Burgundavia> have you got any of the changes recently?
<jsgotangco> yes i did im sure the email will arrive anytime
<jsgotangco> ahh treeview right
<jsgotangco> jjesse, hi
<jedi0473> hi 
<jedi0473> a question 
<Burgundavia> sure
<Burgundavia> shoot
<jedi0473> i installed ubuntu 
<jedi0473> in spaish 
<Burgundavia> good first step
<jedi0473> evrything is ok 
<Burgundavia> another good sign
<jedi0473> except by the office suite 
<Burgundavia> hmm
<Burgundavia> you might want to try #ubuntu-es , seeing as you speak spanish
<jedi0473> how can i change the lang
<jedi0473> but any idea
<jedi0473> how can i do it
<Burgundavia> sorry, I dont use anything but english. #ubuntu-es would probably be able to help you
<jedi0473> ok 
<jedi0473> thnk u 
<jsgotangco> hmm
<jsgotangco> office suite
<jsgotangco> i think you need to download language packs
<jsgotangco> oh now i know why im not getting real time commit reports im in digest mode *grin*
<Burgundavia> oops
<jedi0473> lang packs
<jedi0473> is ther any repository 
<jedi0473> wher to go fo them ?
<Burgundavia> should be in main
<jedi0473> ok 
<jedi0473> thnks
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, are you familiar with sed?
<jsgotangco> nope
<jsgotangco> why?
<jsgotangco> i was talking with an australian consul on the phone
<Burgundavia> sed s/string to search for/string to replace it with/g
<Burgundavia> thus you can cat a document
<Burgundavia> cat blah | sed s/blah/BLAH/g > blah
<Burgundavia> simple way to replace something
<jsgotangco> yeah i was testing out on committing with esvn and i just discovered how to do multiple commits
<jsgotangco> thats why i had some very simple commits
<jsgotangco> i mean invidividual
<jsgotangco> but ill read the man of sed then
<Burgundavia> also read about regular expressions
<jsgotangco> can it go beyond other folders?
<jsgotangco> thru pipe or something like that?
<Burgundavia> that is for a single doc
<Burgundavia> basically cat blah puts blah to the standard out
<Burgundavia> then the pipe passes it to sed
<jsgotangco> hmm i just installed 5.04 in a new box..i wish our firefox already had links to ubuntu resources
<froud> African Greetings
<jsgotangco> hi froud
<Burgundavia> salut
<froud> Burgundavia: hi, I see our new commiters are having fun :-)
<froud> Burgundavia: just gotta help them along and make sure they don't commit anything bad :-)
<jsgotangco> hah
<froud> jsgotangco: hello dude
<froud> so you got it working
<jsgotangco> well i did make some blunder on committing individually
<jsgotangco> but i went back to the esvn manual and i can commit via the tree which makes it easier
<froud> If you select via tree it just does commit of all M or A files in the selected dir
<froud> Always svn up before commit and check for conflicts
<froud> if conflict then resolve
<froud> else commit
<froud> fi
<jsgotangco> yeah i did that
<froud> good boy
<froud> about your question on Kde docs
<froud> Perhaps you want to pick a document and start outlining it
<froud> then post the outline to the list
<jsgotangco> good idea i was talking to someone in #kubuntu who asked for a user manual and i told him there's nothing at the moment except Sean's name
<froud> alternately, build the out in the xml file and then anounce it on list. that way we can all hack at it and finally we will come to a finished out line
<jsgotangco> i can probably refer to the existing userguides and stuff and just move it into kde format
<froud> yes you can use them as Ideas
<Burgundavia> froud, indeed
<froud> chaps how should we do this?
<froud> install is common to gubunru and kubuntu
<froud> think we should have an installation guide
<jsgotangco> you really insist on gubuntu
<Burgundavia> gubunru <-- is that the new top secret African distro
<froud> in generic
<froud> bubuntu
<froud> gubuntu
<Burgundavia> BOBuntu <-- linux for fat american slobs
<Burgundavia> installation guide is good
<froud> Burgundavia: think it should be genric though
<Burgundavia> once I figure out how, I can use qemu to get the screenshots
<Burgundavia> froud, yep
<froud> oh qemu is easy
<froud> I just created a 2GB img
<froud> and installed there
<jsgotangco> hmmm
<jsgotangco> maybe i should reformat this machine to get some new space
<Burgundavia> ok, haven't dug into it yet
<froud> now I have working gubuntu and working kubuntu running under SuSE
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, just buy another hdd
<jsgotangco> on a laptop???
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, hmm
<froud> jsgotangco: yes extenal drives
<jsgotangco> no worries im saving for a shuttle pc
<Burgundavia> 2.5" are not that much more
<jsgotangco> i might get it next month
<froud> Burgundavia: the debian installation guide is nice. but I fear to hectic for our user audience
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, i don't have a job...i use my savings at the moment...so money is quite tight
<Burgundavia> froud, ideally, the installation guide should simply say exactly what to do for most people
<froud> Geez why are so may skilled people without jobs, it really pisses me off
<jsgotangco> haven't you seen the Linspire quick guide
<froud> jsgotangco: drop the url
<Burgundavia> froud, mine is mostly by choice
<froud> Burgundavia: you are a special case :-)
<jsgotangco> i think Burgundavia mentioned about it before..i dont have it
<froud> Burgundavia: drop the linspire installation manual
<jsgotangco> well its different to be unemployed in a 3rd world country...
<froud> how that
<jsgotangco> interest rates are higher, inflation is higher, etc.
<jsgotangco> would you believe credit cards here charge 3.5% a month
<froud> our inflation is 3.5 percent
<jsgotangco> thats why im thinking of emigrating somewhere
<froud> come to South Africa dude
<froud> it rocks
<Burgundavia> http://www.linspire.com/quickstart
<Burgundavia> froud, follow that
<Burgundavia> froud, yes, I am very special
<froud> PDF
<jsgotangco> yaagghh
<froud> anyone seen minimum spec req for gubuntu and kubuntu
<froud> recomended would also be nice
<jsgotangco> when you mean gubuntu, its ubuntu with gnome
<froud> jsgotangco: yes
<jsgotangco> and when we say ubuntu its just base right
<froud> server :-)
<froud> help us differentiate the distros
<froud> otherwise we will be confused all the time
<froud> mdke: don't like it :-)
<jsgotangco> well if its just for internal use why not
<froud> yeah, but I bet it catches on and soon everyone is doing it
<jsgotangco> well yeah let's blame riddell
<jsgotangco> ok ubuntu we do a desktop neutral guide
<jsgotangco> gubuntu we improve existing
<jsgotangco> and kubuntu we're doing a new one
<froud> yep
<froud> hey school run must go
<jsgotangco> okay
<jsgotangco> later then
<froud> that was the school run
<froud> Burgundavia: you working on FAQ Guide Right
<froud> Burgundavia: we need to profile that doc
<Burgundavia> by profile, you mean?
<froud> anything specific to gnome should have the os attribute set to os="gnome"
<Burgundavia> ah
<Burgundavia> fun
<Burgundavia> how does one do that?
<froud> http://www.sagehill.net/docbookxsl/Profiling.html
<froud> we need to decide on what attributes we will be using and what the profiles are
<froud> we can get as many documents as we define profiles from one xml document
<Burgundavia> I think we can keep it simple
<froud> I think for now it is just gnome and kde profiles
<Burgundavia> do we have anything that is arch specific?
<froud> yes that is another consideration
<Burgundavia> our archs are: x86, amd64, ia64, ppc, ppc64
<froud> I know we will need arch on Installation guide
<Burgundavia> are they doing sparc for this release?
<froud> dunno
<jsgotangco> well it shouldnt be that complicated i guess its just a matter of tagging them, besides they all use the same method
<jsgotangco> or do they?
<froud> yes if something is applicable to all then no tag
<Burgundavia> well, archs should only be for the installer
<froud> yes
<jsgotangco> sparc looks cloudy
<Burgundavia> does anyboyd have a ppc or ppc64 that we can test the installer to see what is does?
<Burgundavia> what about amd54?
<Burgundavia> s/54/64
<froud> Burgundavia: we can emulate that under qemu
<Burgundavia> ah
<froud> I have 
<froud> qemu-arm         qemu-i386        qemu-ppc         qemu-system-ppc
<froud> qemu-fast        qemu-img         qemu-sparc
<Burgundavia> hmm
<Burgundavia> I thought qemu was x86 specific for some reason
<froud> No I thought you could emulate a hardware platform
<froud> if you dont specify a platform it defualts to i386
<Burgundavia> hmm, I thought I specifically read that qemu is x86
<Burgundavia> wrong everyday of the life, as per usual
* Burgundavia grumbles about commit access
<froud> well we need to decide on the profiles for various docs in generic and document it
<froud> Burgundavia: get your new sent
* Burgundavia is grumbling generally. Still pissed off at himself
<froud> Catholicism leads to guilt
* Burgundavia is an atheist
<froud> I prefer to be agnostic
<Burgundavia> but I also believe in the invisible pink unicorn
<jsgotangco> well i grew up as catholic but that does not affect how i work nor contribute here
<jsgotangco> my aunt is a nun and my cousin is a priest
<jsgotangco> hehe
<jsgotangco> have you noticed how catholicism thrives in poor countries
<Burgundavia> <troll>'cause then I can get the theists coming and going</troll>
<froud> Burgundavia: can you give some thought to the profiling and place a document in wiki on it and how you propose to profile?
<Burgundavia> ugh, that means I have to edit the wiki
<Burgundavia> ok, can do
<froud> cool, so at least we can know what to do when we upgrade the doc to hoary
<froud> I suggest we upgrade faq guide to hoary first I think this will close the gap to the next release
<jsgotangco> hmm
<jsgotangco> learnlinux..that is nice ive seen the site before
<froud> yes I have it at http://learnlinux.tsf.org.za
<froud> we are going to improve on it and make it Ubuntu
<jsgotangco> are we including this on breezy?
<froud> If we get it done
<jsgotangco> id like that
<Burgundavia> froud, I am actually thinking we skip right past hoary for the faqguide
<jsgotangco> stuff like these should be installled by default
<Burgundavia> froud, mine is going to be more graphically
<Burgundavia> froud, the ubuntu wayTM
<froud> It is a good task for authors who want to learn linux
<froud> Burgundavia: if you feel that is the way to go
<jsgotangco> what needs to be done in generic?
<froud> what do you mean
<Burgundavia> froud, well, the faqguide is already being done for hoary, by chen
<Burgundavia> froud, so why do a bunch of work that is already done and that I question the value of in the first place
<jsgotangco> is there a place where we have a ToDo list or who's doing stuff in our ever lovable wiki
<froud> Burgundavia: yes somewhere
<Burgundavia> https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/Profiling
<froud> Burgundavia: I dont think that there will be much diff between a faq fo rhoary and a faq for brezzy
<Burgundavia> mostly the screenshots
<froud> You think faq should have screenshots
<froud> is it not better to link to documents
<jsgotangco> i think not if it has, its a guide
<Burgundavia> I am thinking screenshots of exactly what to do
<Burgundavia> ala
<Burgundavia> click here
<Burgundavia> that brings up this
<Burgundavia> click here
<Burgundavia> type this in
<froud> can I rename Profiling to DocteamProfiling
<Burgundavia> sure
<Burgundavia> I have no emotional attachment to the name
<froud> we decided on that convention to keep our stuff out of the rest
<Burgundavia> ok
<froud> once you have an idea on which attributes we will use for what and what the profiles are, put it up there
<froud> https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocteamProfiling
<froud> Burgundavia: it may make the faq guide very long
<froud> Burgundavia: perhaps write a section in a doc and then using XPointer
<froud> include it to the Faq
<froud> that way it will be easier to manage the faq
<jsgotangco> userlevel is a nice attribute
<froud> as we update nodes in the documents we get updates in the faq
<froud> since I have made most docs a single xml instance it should be easier for us to manage XPointers
<froud> jsgotangco: yes, but profiling to user levels is compounded problem
<froud> the doc itself is already at a user level
<jsgotangco> good point
<froud> makeing user level inside user level is ARPITA
<froud> Burgundavia: what do you think?
<Burgundavia> I am uncertain how xpointers work
<Burgundavia> froud, take a look at the wiki page now
<froud> http://www.sagehill.net/docbookxsl/ModularDoc.html
<Burgundavia> ahh
<Burgundavia> I see
<Burgundavia> so I can create something like: To install Example App
<Burgundavia> xinclude:Starting synatpic
<Burgundavia> then say search for Example app
<Burgundavia> xinclude:Installingfurthercrapprocess
<Burgundavia> correct?
<froud> yes XInclude the nodes you want in the faq guide so long as your xinludes and xpointers result in a valid xml doc it works
<froud> all you need is an uniq id on the node
<Burgundavia> basically achieving the same thing the faqguide does with the (adding extra repos), etc, at the beginning of his instructions
<Burgundavia> is all that stuff done on the fly?
<froud> what stuff
<Burgundavia> the xinclude, would that be pulled in by yelp as the doc is generated?
<froud> faq guide is not going into yelp
<froud> but yes the XIncludes are expanded at proc
<froud> I am building an Ubuntu Toolbar for Mozilla
<froud> most of the docs will be plain html
<froud> with css
<froud> accessed via the Ubuntu Toolbar
<froud> Only GNOME Docs are set for Yelp
<froud> generic and kde are not
<froud> KHelpcenter reads plain any HTML
* froud is editing https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocteamProfiling
<jsgotangco> hmm so it would be much easier to do docs on kubuntu
<Burgundavia> bah
<Burgundavia> already outnumbered
<jsgotangco> Inter may be expelled from Champions League
<jsgotangco> HAR HAR HAR
<Burgundavia> Inter Milan?
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jsgotangco> there was a match
<jsgotangco> it went ugly
<jsgotangco> the people watching threw flares in the field
<froud> ok https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocteamProfiling update. I am now off to meetings. c ya all later
<jsgotangco> i gotta go to and do the groceries
<jsgotangco> later
<mdke> morning all
<Burgundavia> salut
<Burgundavia> salut
<mpt> bonsoir
<Burgundavia> bon matin
<Kinnison> salut burgerboi
<Burgundavia> Kinnison, hey kinnison
<Burgundavia> hmm
<Burgundavia> tired
<Kinnison> sleeeeeeeeep
<Burgundavia> Kinnison, mpt Burgundavia: Smile sweetly at a programmer or three, and ask them to implement a way to highlight actual controls in a program's window when a button is pressed in that window's help file.
<Burgundavia> Burgundavia mpt, that is a lot of programmers to smile sweetly at. My ass might get a little sore
* Kinnison gets very confused
<Burgundavia> thinking of you my dear
<mpt> ehh
* Kinnison is still confused
<Burgundavia> nev mind
<Burgundavia> gtk 1.x apps need to die
<Kinnison> aye
<Burgundavia> mpt, take a look at aria
<Burgundavia> what a mess
<mpt> aria is a gtk 1.x app?
<Burgundavia> yep
<Burgundavia> non-higgy
<Burgundavia> very stable though
<Burgundavia> unfortuately, the fireget xpi is borked
<mpt> what does it do?
<Burgundavia> download manager
<Burgundavia> http://aria.rednoah.com/
<Burgundavia> arrr
<Burgundavia> gnome will not mount a cd as an audio cd and a data cd at the same time
<mpt> Burgundavia: Would I be shot at if I admitted that the highlighting actual controls idea isn't mine, but is from a now-defunct OS?
<Burgundavia> beos or amiga?
<mpt> neither
<Burgundavia> what?
<mpt> Mac OS 7.5-8 (but not 9 or X)
<Burgundavia> I though those were the holy grails of usablity (sorry)
<mpt> http://www.quinn.echidna.id.au/Quinn/WWW/HISubtleties/AppleGuideCoachMarks.html
<Burgundavia> hmm
<Burgundavia> nice
<Burgundavia> that could be done without modifying the app
<mpt> You need to be able to open the app's menus programmatically
<Burgundavia> true
<mpt> actually, what am I talking about
<mpt> no you don't
<Burgundavia> what you need is a frame work
<mpt> the way it worked was that it would highlight the menu, and say, e.g. "first, open the File menu"
<Burgundavia> not much of a programmer, though
<mpt> then when you opened it, it would say "next, choose 'Save As...'"
<mpt> etc
<mpt> So yeah, you need to be able to detect when things have happened in the app
<mpt> as well as just highlighting controls
<Burgundavia> mark should throw some money at it
<Burgundavia> develop a spec under the auspices of fd.o
<mpt> If I showed it to him he'd say "That's such CRACK!"
<Burgundavia> mark is different
<mpt> ok, I don't know that for sure
<Burgundavia> we need some good first 20 minutes help stuff
<Burgundavia> that is where most help falls down
<mpt> yes
<Burgundavia> and most distros specifically
<mpt> as in, first 20 minutes in Ubuntu?
<Burgundavia> yep
<Burgundavia> setting up multimedia
<Burgundavia> menus
<Burgundavia> updating system
<mpt> why doesn't updating start itself automatically?
<Burgundavia> mostly I find my usablity bugs within 1 minutes of opening and using an app
<Burgundavia> mpt, it does on install
<Burgundavia> and it does the apt-get update part
<Burgundavia> it just won't install by default
<mpt> ew
<Burgundavia> at least now it throws a red thing up there
<mpt> oh, right
<Burgundavia> warty didn't have anything
<mpt> stick a help balloon on it, or something
<Burgundavia> ugh
<mpt> heh
<Burgundavia> help ballons are possibly one of the most annoying things a system can do
<Burgundavia> and they don't help
<Burgundavia> they just annoy users
<mpt> Well, consider that previous versions of Windows used alerts for the same purpose
<mpt> that was worse
<mpt> ok, aria is kinda scary
<Burgundavia> when you run windows in a corp environment, the 1st thing it says, with a balloon, is "there are unused icons on our desktop"
<Burgundavia> mpt, fireget and gwget is coming along quite nicely from what I understand
<Burgundavia> but fireget xpi download link it borked
<mpt> Burgundavia: Hey now, that's not fair, that's a good idea misused
<Burgundavia> hmm
<mpt> If there are unused icons on my desktop I'll clean them up in my own good time :-)
<Burgundavia> the balloon is much overused in windows
<mpt> yes
<Burgundavia> and I agree with don't install automatically
<Burgundavia> breaks the principle of not changing something without the users input
<mpt> oh, true
<mpt> I didn't understand what you meant
<mpt> jdub (I think) pointed the other day to someone's notification system that ...
<mpt> no, it was wmf
<mpt> one moment
<mpt> ah, no, it was a Weblog entry in one of the Weblogs that linked to mine
<mpt> I'll never find it again now
<Burgundavia> a balloon one?
<mpt> anyway, they'd made this notification system just for apps to make balloon-like things with
<mpt> and they were stacked vertically down the side of the screen
<mpt> balloon city
<Burgundavia> that was for jabber I think
<Burgundavia> http://www.kismith.co.uk/wordpress/index.php/2005/04/12/new-in-the-psi-world/
<Burgundavia> this one?
<mpt> that looks like it
<Burgundavia> what would you use it for?
<mpt> but I seem to remember it wasn't being used for IM
<mpt> In the screenshot I saw, it was for "download complete"-kinda things
<Burgundavia> hmm
<Burgundavia> never saw that
<Burgundavia> played with beagle at all?
<mpt> no
<Burgundavia> is very nice
<Burgundavia> if very alpha
<mpt> Looks like a competitor to http://www.google.com/
<mpt> Not a competitor to Google, but to http://www.google.com/
<Burgundavia> beagle is spotlight
<jsgotangco> bah
<jsgotangco> :)
<jsgotangco> whoa they sent room assignments already
<Burgundavia> lucky bugger
<Burgundavia> going to UDU
<jsgotangco> im with Andrew Mitchell
<jsgotangco> hehe
<mpt> See, one day Google will have a Web-based calendar, and at http://www.google.com/ you'll type "meeting with Burgundavia at 3pm", and it'll add an appointment to your calendar instead of doing a Web search
<Burgundavia> mpt, check out the hula project
<Burgundavia> looks very cool
<mpt> I did, a few weeks ago
<mpt> to see if it could be used for Launchpad
<Burgundavia> there is hula in the hoary repos
<Burgundavia> good thing I went to Mataro. tickets to aussie start at 2,800 CAD
<jsgotangco> jeezzz
<mpt> arg, I still need to get accommodation
<Burgundavia> is canonical not putting you up mpt?
<mpt> oh, yeah, they are for UDU, but I'm going a couple of days early
<Burgundavia> ah
<Burgundavia> cool
<Burgundavia> 3974 for canberra
<mpt> like when I went to Montreal, the time they were putting me up I was in the Ritz Carlton, and I stayed an extra couple of days in ... a youth hostel
<Burgundavia> mpt, were you at Mataro?
<mpt> No, when Mataro was held, I didn't know Ubuntu existed
<Burgundavia> how did you get hired? are you a dd?
<mpt> No, I meant to install Debian but never got around to it
<Burgundavia> I assume then you have experience with OSS development>?
<jsgotangco> what does it take to get hired by canonical anyway
<mpt> Yeah, I contributed in various ways to Mozilla for a few years
* jsgotangco grumbles at his oracle experience and now has no job
* Burgundavia is also unemployed
<Burgundavia> though by choice
<jsgotangco> well
<Burgundavia> I left a windows helpdesk monkey job
<jsgotangco> thats one thing
<jsgotangco> i was handling 3 oracle servers till the company went kaput
<mpt> jsgotangco: Know the right people
<Burgundavia> sell yourself well
<Burgundavia> I didn't do so well I when I first talked to mark
<jsgotangco> at least being jobless at the moment gave me a lot of opportunities with OSS
<jsgotangco> im just thinking its a good training for now
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia will the profiling be de and arch specific?
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, that is the point
<Burgundavia> profile all our docs to be that
<jsgotangco> we should really have a meeting before UDU
<Burgundavia> we are
<Burgundavia> mpt, read the list
<Burgundavia> mpt, the doc one
<jsgotangco> when i read mpt's piece i didnt know he was canonical
<jsgotangco> until someone pointed out
<Burgundavia> I had never seen him around, so I was surprised as well
<mpt> Burgundavia: I will, as soon as my e-mail is working again
<jsgotangco> i might look at my xp box and how they did their techincal documentation
<jsgotangco> maybe i can learn something from that
<jsgotangco> a lot of the kubuntu users are asking for one as well
<mpt> jsgotangco: technical documentation?
<mpt> jsgotangco: You mean user help, or something else?
<jsgotangco> i mean user help yes
<Burgundavia> xps help is crap
<Burgundavia> most docs in the computer world are crap
<Burgundavia> that is why oreilly makes a fortune selling good books
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia at least they are more accessible IMO
<Burgundavia> XP has search
<mpt> Yes, XP's help is crap
<jsgotangco> right, but like you said before, "logical flow of information from doc to wiki"
<mpt> The content is good, but the layout is terrible
<Burgundavia> I belive sean said that
<mpt> It practically takes over the entire screen
<Burgundavia> xp likes to eat screen realestate
<Burgundavia> ballons, dogs, etc.
<mpt> task panes
<mpt> sidebars
<Burgundavia> sidebars that you cant edit by right click or drag and drop
<jsgotangco> ok ok i get your point but still if it can help, it will help
<Burgundavia> the issue is not really of writing good docs
<Burgundavia> it is of delivering them in a good way
<jsgotangco> i think we are talented enough to write good books
<mpt> Books, undoubtedly
<mpt> Help? possibly :-)
<jsgotangco> *grin*
<Burgundavia> what we really need to think about is, how many less words can this be said in
<mpt> Yes, fewer words and fewer syllables with the same meaning
<jsgotangco> is that why you want to make your stuff visually
<mpt> my stuff visually?
<jsgotangco> no, Burgundavia
<mpt> oh
<jsgotangco> he was talking about an FAQ that had a lot of images and stuff
<jsgotangco> if you want to do this, click this, bla bla
<jsgotangco> http://www.wordpress.tokyotimes.org/index.php?p=510
<jsgotangco> jeezz
<jsgotangco> ackkk acrobat 7 for linux is 37.6MB what the...
<Burgundavia> acrobat 7 also contains spyware
<Burgundavia> kpdf/evince is better
<jsgotangco> kpdf is good
<jsgotangco> i havent tried evince
<Burgundavia> they both now use the poppler backend
<jsgotangco> isnt poppler based on xpdf
<jsgotangco> oh well gotta sleep too
<jsgotangco> night!
<Burgundavia> ok
* mdke catches up on the emails
<mdke> hi all
<Burgundavia> salut
<mdke> hi Burgundavia 
<mdke> nice email
<Burgundavia> which one?
<Burgundavia> devel or doc?
<mdke> doc
<Burgundavia> 1. he works for canonical? that one?
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> i also agree
<mdke> there is no need to take that blog as a personal critique of our efforts, its useful
<mdke> although I only read the Help section
<Burgundavia> He sets very high standards on usablity
<Burgundavia> so do I
<Burgundavia> read the scrollback here and ubuntu-devel
<mdke> high standards are essential
<mdke> if we can't hit em, due to time/people limitations, then so be it, but we should set em
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> how far back am i going in #ubuntu-devel?
<mdke> Burgundavia ross, Ubuntu doc team already maintains a complete set for main
<mdke> Treenaks Burgundavia: in all languages?
<mdke> the languages are todo
<mdke> but then that applies to the docs as well ;)
<Burgundavia> everything is always todo
<Burgundavia> I should write a script to do it
<mdke> to take screenshots, or to translate docs?
<mdke> i'd like to see you write a script for either ;p
<Burgundavia> take screenshots
<Burgundavia> I need to play with imagemagick
<mdke> we need to discuss the question of size tho
<Burgundavia> I think we need to shrink the size in the quickguide
<mdke> Burgundavia, are we extending the topic of the meeting to more general things? if so, we can add that to the agenda
<mdke> i've started gradually to take some screenshots in different languages, but it would help if things are a bit more certain about size, and maybe compression too
<Burgundavia> see the list
<mdke> gottit
<mdke> Burgundavia, btw
<Burgundavia> yes>
<mdke> check out the gnome/images/C/aboutubuntu.png
<Burgundavia> ok
<mdke> do you think for the l18n ones I should do a shot of yelp-aboutubuntu?
<mdke> rather than firefox
<mdke> since its in the menu
<Burgundavia> hmm
<Burgundavia> I don't completely understand
<mdke> oh
<mdke> well that pic is of firefox with the aboutubuntu text in
<mdke> rather than yelp
<Burgundavia> we should probably use ff
<Burgundavia> as we going to be switching, hopefully, to seans xul toolbar
<mdke> right
<mdke> i'll wait on it
<mdke> changing comps
<Burgundavia> hmm
<Burgundavia> did you catch the tone from seans last emails?
<Burgundavia> or am I reading him wrong?
<mkde> yes
<mkde> (i caught it)
<jjesse> afternoon everyone (or whatever time of day it is where youa re at)
<mkde> hi jjesse 
<Burgundavia> salut
<Burgundavia> jjesse, mpt is not as bad as that
<mkde> +1
<mkde> :p
* jeffsch is back (gone 21:45:54)
<jjesse> thats just how the tone came across i know it is hard to tell tone of voice in an email
<Burgundavia> mpt is actually quite sane
<Burgundavia> he sets very high standards
<Burgundavia> which is good
<jjesse> i figured, but that is how the reveiw came across to me
<jjesse> i enjoy ubuntu more then any distro i've ever tried and i've tried them all
<Burgundavia> did you read his 48 hours enduring mac os x
<jjesse> slackware, debian, suse, fedora core 1 and core 2 and several others
<jjesse> no i didn't
<Burgundavia> if you read the bug report about mozilla, you see that his idea got lost in infighting amongst the mozilla devs
<Burgundavia> http://www.goteborgcityairport.se/
<Burgundavia> can anybody else get through to that?
<jjesse> doesn't load all the way
<Burgundavia> hmm
<Burgundavia> I get nothing
<jeffsch> i get nothing too
<Burgundavia> anyway
<Burgundavia> what really needs to be discussed at the meeting?
<mkde> the mdz list of stuff we need to have frozen with decent notive
<mkde> s/notive/notice
<mkde> also we can discuss general ideas about structure of docs?
<mkde> as raised by the blog
<mkde> but dunno if people wanna turn it into a full blown meeting
<jjesse> what was the link again to the meeting time ?
<mkde> DocteamNextIRCMeeting
<jjesse> thanks
<froud> hi, i see we have lots of different views
<mkde> hi froud
<froud> hi mdke 
<mkde> you ok?
<froud> pushing deadlines al day, if my messages seem short and curt then it is cause of pressure
<mkde> hope you got everything done
<froud> yep dont you just love customers that want it yesterday and tell you today
<Burgundavia> froud, ok, it just didn't seem like your usual style
<mkde> i don't have any customers :)
<Burgundavia> bah
<Burgundavia> wiki is not letting me login
<mkde> works here
<mkde> check your email address/pass
<mkde> once happened to me when i changed my email in launchpad and didn't realise it affects the whole site
<Burgundavia> it logs me in
<froud> quick sit rap are all image file refs now updated?
<mkde> cool
<mkde> not sure froud 
<froud> I saw we now have language captures
<mkde> i started some
<mkde> gimme some time ;)
<froud> do the language documents point to the right files now
<froud> or still to C
<mkde> i haven't edited them
<mkde> but then hardly any images are done
<froud> OK
<jeffsch> i looked at a couple of xx .xml yesterday, and they are pointing to C
<froud> dunno how we are gonna save ourselves the overhead on updating those values each time we generate a new POT
<mkde> froud, i was just thinking that
<mkde> there must be a cool way to do it
<froud> perhaps some sed in a script
<mkde> :/
<jeffsch> maybe if we change them to xx now. then put sym-links to C
<jeffsch> when the xx screen capt is ready, just overwrite the sym-link
<mkde> its not that, its more the problem of how to get the links in each document to point to their own language
<froud> jeffsch: svn 1.0 does not understand symlinks
<mkde> if possible automatically
<froud> we can do this when elmo updates to svn 1.1
<mkde> froud, there is no way to get links in a document to point to something specified document-wide, e.g. C, it, fr, de etc?
<froud> which btw will force all authors to update thier local subversion
<froud> yes there is
<mkde> thats what we're looking for no?
<froud> I have added lang ents to global.ent
<froud> we can do fileref="../some/path/&German;/foo.png"
<mkde> but will that require each po file to be edited manually for each link?
<froud> yes I am looking for a method to do &language;
<mkde> what we really need is for a file reference to refer to the document language and then figure out where to get the image
<mkde> froud, yeah exactly that sort of thing
<mkde> that would be so cool
<froud> I need this mechanism in other places to like <book id="somevalue" lang="&language;">
<mkde> yeah
<froud> started playing with it and will try to find a solution. Until then leave it as it is
<mkde> ok i'm gonna make something to eat
<mkde> froud, its not a problem now because most of the docs won't get translated for ages :)
<froud> sure I am just trying to work ahead as I know the problem will hit us
<mkde> :)
<froud> and it forms part of the make system
<mkde> bbl
<froud> Ok yes food is a good idea
<jeffsch> if it's only filerefs that change with language, then maybe <book id="somevalue" fileref="../image/fr">
<froud> what we need is language entity defined in the DocType Decl and all language entities take ot from there for processing
<froud> if we set @lang then all gen texts in the books are auto translated by docbook
<froud> but the &language; entity can be used in other places like the filerefs so that we cut down on our overhead
<froud> if we leave it hard coded we are bound to forget something
<jeffsch> true.
<jeffsch> hungry. must go.
* jeffsch is away: I'll be back
<Kaya> hello
<Kaya> XBGM (xbgm.sf.net), It's a very nice xbox game manager that some may consider as the Qwix
<Kaya> for none-MS Windows OSes.
<Kaya> Now, the software is under the GPL and does not contain any non-free file. You don't need anything non-free to compile and run it either But, i was wondering if the debian-legal team had anything against that 
<Kaya> package since it implies that you have a modified xbox with an alternative OS. There's no way you can use xbgm# if you haven't modchipped or softmodded your xbox.
<Kaya> So... what do you think? 
<Kaya> Is that possible to add it to Ubuntu
<Burgundavia> Kaya, you want #ubuntu-motu
<Kaya> ok thx
#ubuntu-doc 2005-04-26
<mdke> hi hypatia 
<hypatia> hi
* hypatia tries to work out everyone's real name
<hypatia> So that I know you from the mailing list...
<mdke> <-- matt
<hypatia> yeah, your mask is helpful there :)
<hypatia> as is mine
* hypatia == mary
<mdke> yeep
<mdke> Burgundavia = corey, froud = sean
<mdke> boglot = logbot
<mdke> i am happy to keep meeting short and regular
<mdke> *meetings
<Burgundavia> hello
<hypatia> sure.
<hypatia> To be fair, I haven't had a close look at the critique.
<hypatia> For all I know it could be addresses fairly quickly.
<hypatia> What do you think?
<Burgundavia> not really
<mdke> no
<Burgundavia> I chatted with him on irc
<hypatia> hi Burgundavia
<Burgundavia> we discussed bluesky and breezy stuff
<mdke> its not just him, its just that we need to sort out where we are going with the next release
<Burgundavia> we have some ideas
<Burgundavia> to bad most of us will miss UDU
<hypatia> Well, I will be there, but only on the Monday.
<hypatia> I don't want to take a week's vacation for it.
<Burgundavia> well, the major thing that I have not seen mentioned outside of Sean, myself and Mark is the docbook/wiki/svn portal
<hypatia> That sounds like a good idea to me.
<mdke> my view is simply that it is good if someone can manage it
<hypatia> But it also sounds like it would need a lot of energy to follow up, let alone to develop it.
<Burgundavia> we need to flesh out a concrete set of goals
<mdke> but if its unrealistic, i think we should not dream any further about it
<Burgundavia> as mark mentioned that would we willing to throw some devs at it
<Burgundavia> s/we/he
<mdke> he mentioned it
<hypatia> My partner works for Canonical.
<mdke> but hasn't done it
<hypatia> My impression is that their development time is kind of spoken for.
<mdke> they are working hard on launchpad and stuff
<hypatia> I assume there could well be a bounty kind of thing.
<hypatia> And then a third party developer could work on it.
<mdke> that would be cool
<Burgundavia> no idea what his plans were
<mdke> anyway we can discuss it, but I think that we shouldn't count on it happening soon
<hypatia> Burgundavia: that is probably a good candidate for the pre-UDU meeting.
<Burgundavia> hmm
<Burgundavia> ok
<hypatia> Burgundavia: so that someone at UDU can take it to Mark or Jane Silber or Jeff Waugh or whoever and get a firm yes or no.
<Burgundavia> sounds good
<hypatia> Burgundavia: but I think someone needs to spec it out really well.
<hypatia> so that development time can be estimated.
<mdke> mdz said he would fight our corner on the other thing, so if we give him some details on this too, perhaps he can present it
<Burgundavia> I mentioned the basics on the list
<mdke> or someone else
<hypatia> Burgundavia: stick it on a wiki page for easy reference.
<mdke> add to meeting agenda?
<Burgundavia> ok, I will dig it up
<hypatia> I'll ask Jeff Waugh to see if he knows what it would take to get a commitment one way or the other from Canonical on the development of an integrated tool.
<hypatia> Burgundavia: yeah, stick it on a wiki page and also add it to the agenda.
<mdke> perhaps the structure of docs/userbase issue can be postponed until after UDU
<hypatia> mdke: Maybe it could be discussed on the mailing list for now.
<mdke> ++
<hypatia> mdke: If people have a couple of weeks to chew it over, the discussion at the meeting can probably move faster.
<mdke> fine yeah
<mdke> hey your website is awesome
<hypatia> puzzling.org ?
<Burgundavia> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocTeamWebPortal
<mdke> hypatia, yes
<mdke> i love the names page
<Burgundavia> dine
<Burgundavia> done even
<hypatia> mdke: It's a fun meme :)
<Burgundavia> still looking for a good domainname for myself
<Burgundavia> I have settled on ontapSOMETHING
<Burgundavia> but I need a good word for SOMETHING
<hypatia> It took me about a year to find one I liked.
<Burgundavia> I tried ontapdesktop
<Burgundavia> but that doesn't read right
<Burgundavia> mdke, ping
<hypatia> Burgundavia: so, jdub (jeff.waugh@ubuntu.com) asks for this re the wiki/docbook thing:
<hypatia> email him and Cc docteam, asking for it to be raised at UDU.
<hypatia> Make sure that you include links to the archive for all previous discussion, including Mark's comments.
<hypatia> Because he has no idea about it, and will need some background if he's to push it up the chain.
<jsgotangco> tadaaaa
<jsgotangco> hi trickie
<trickie> jsgotangco, hey there!
<jsgotangco> whats up?
<trickie> jsgotangco, not much... at work... just though i'd pop in
<trickie> jsgotangco, i haven't had much time lately to spend on #ubuntu-doc
<jsgotangco> its pretty quiet here at this time..
<jsgotangco> probably in an hour or 2 froud will be awake
<trickie> jsgotangco, yeah i seem to miss all the cool discussions
<jsgotangco> hmmm the guys at devel are doing sparc but its 100% unofficial
<jsgotangco> lunch bbl
<Burgundavia> salut toutlemonde
<jsgotangco> salut
* jeffsch is back (gone 11:22:10)
<jsgotangco> salut
<froud> African Greetings
<Burgundavia> salut
<jsgotangco> hi
<froud> morn
<trickie> froud, i just wanted to thanks for all the work you did on the branch merge
<trickie> froud, i have been quickly glancing at the commit logs and wathcing what you are doing
<froud> no problem
<trickie> froud, it was a good learning exp, never done a lot of branching/merging in SVN
<froud> how r u
<trickie> froud, yeah not bad... been pretty flat out lately...
<froud> me too customers come last minute and want it now
<trickie> froud, not much time to spend on the things i actually WANT to spend my time on :)
<trickie> froud, always the way ;)
<froud> trickie: hows you knowledge of entities in the internal subset
<trickie> froud, internal subset?
<froud> yeah the [ ]  in the DocType Decl
<froud> in libs/global.ent we have language entities
<trickie> froud, ah... i sorta know how to do them... not alot though...
<froud> Ok
<froud> seems like there is no way I can put paramatized internal entities into the internal subset
<trickie> froud, as in &name; = something
<froud> %languages;
<froud> seems I must do it in the dtd which means we end up with our own customlayer of the DTD
<froud> Ah hA I GOT IT, I GOT IT!
<froud> !!!!!!!!
<froud> Yeah
<froud> <?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
<froud> <!DOCTYPE article PUBLIC "-//OASIS//DTD DocBook XML V4.1.2//EN" 
<froud> 	"http://www.oasis-open.org/docbook/xml/4.1.2/docbookx.dtd" [
<froud> <!ENTITY % globalent SYSTEM "../../../libs/global.ent">
<froud> %globalent;
<froud> <!ENTITY % cdo-C SYSTEM "../../../libs/cdo-C.ent">
<froud> %cdo-C;
<froud> <!ENTITY % gnome SYSTEM "../../libs/gnome.ent">
<froud> %gnome;
<froud> <!ENTITY % gnome-menus-C SYSTEM "../../libs/gnome-menus-C.ent">
<froud> %gnome-menus-C;
<froud> <!ENTITY % language "&EnglishAmerican;">
<froud> ] >
<froud> <article id="art-about-ubuntu" status="complete" lang="%language;">
<froud> where &language now equals <!ENTITY EnglishAmerican 'en'>
<froud> damn I am good :-)
<froud> Oh wicked
<froud> jeffsch: you there
<froud> mdke: you there
<jeffsch> me here
<froud> found the solution
<froud> the languages are defined in libs/global.ent
<froud> as entities
<froud> <!ENTITY Bhutani 'dz' >
<froud> <!ENTITY Greek 'el' >
<froud> <!ENTITY EnglishAmerican 'en'>
<froud> <!ENTITY Esperanto 'eo' >
<froud> <!ENTITY Spanish 'es' >
<froud> by adding <!ENTITY % language "&EnglishAmerican;"> to the internal subset
<froud> we can expand by internal parameter using %language;
<froud> we only need to change one value in the i18n docs
<froud> that in the internal subset
<froud> its is not perfect but it reduces the number of changes we will need to make in i18n docs
<froud> why did I not think of this before
<jeffsch> so C doc will use &language; entity, and that will not change in xx doc?
<jeffsch> only need to change internal subset?
<froud> yep
<froud> so fileref="../path/to/images/%languages;/foo.png
<froud> "
<froud> Oh no
<froud> but en is dir C
<froud> Oh but as you said we keep path path C in en docs
<jsgotangco> hmm
<trickie> isn't the default language often sepcified as C
<jsgotangco> thats what i always thought
<froud> the parameterized entity only applies to i18n docs
<froud> trickie: yes, but we dont have a problem with C docs cause we generate i18n docs from them
<froud> our problem was the i18n docs
<trickie> froud, ok... i am not sure what you mean... i will butt out! :)
<jsgotangco> is it the reason why we made i18n specific folders
<froud> trickie: the problem was that the fileref@ in imagedata elements changes when you have i18n screenshots
<trickie> froud, ah ok, i see
<froud> the over head in managing the image refs for language change across all docs was going to be high
<trickie> froud, which was something we didn't want to tackle till after Hoary...
<trickie> froud, yep... cool... good solution
<froud> yes, it is on my todo list
<froud> Hmmm but is it....
* froud thinking
<froud> Nearly there
<jsgotangco> ill go back to reading docbook because at the moment this is like esperanto to me
<froud> the problem is that if we do path/to/C/foo.png in the English doc it is automatically propogated to i18n docs
<froud> we need to have the %language; in the engish documents fileref
<froud> this means we wil get /en/ instead of /C/
<trickie> froud, most app i have across use C instead of en
<froud> Oh but that's OK I can do it recursiely via nesting
<froud> yes, stupid thing
<trickie> froud, <!ENTITY EnglishAmerican 'C' >
<froud> but then <book lang="C"> is not good
<trickie> simlink?
<froud> unless for english docs we hard code the lang@
<froud> trickie symlinks not supported in svn 1.0
<froud> need svn 1.1
<trickie> froud, ah yes... i remember that discussion
<trickie> :)
<froud> and I am not sure we want to hard wire it to the file system
<jeffsch> would making the entire path an entity work?
<froud> I wonder what will happen if I use C in the lang@ will the stylesheets splinter
* froud thinks on jeffsch's statement
<froud> It could by paths change and we would have to manage more entities, no?
<froud> lemme test with lang="C" and see if the transform breaks
<froud> no it works
<trickie> It is not the best form, but it is common (lang=C"
<trickie> )
<froud> <!-- <!ENTITY EnglishAmerican 'en'> -->
<froud> <!ENTITY EnglishAmerican 'C'>
<froud> so if 
<froud> Ok I think the xsl:template match=@lang=en is not defined or is the default so it does not look for it
<froud> and since it finds no match for C it just loops over it
<froud> cool, it's a hack, but hey iy works
<jsgotangco> i get it now
<trickie> excellent!
<trickie> works is good :)
<froud> committed
<froud> so by adding <!ENTITY % language "&entityname;"> to the internal subset
<froud> we can use lang="%language;" and for images we can use fileref="..path/to/%language;/foo.png"
<froud> So when we transform to HTML docbook will autmatically pickup languages and use translated gen texts for things like captions and labels
<froud> So we will have 100% translated documents
<froud> and the flexability for management of images
<trickie> wicked!
<froud> all we must do when we create i18n XML is change the value of lang entity
<jsgotangco> im not familiar on the technicalities but that is very good less work and more automation
<jsgotangco> you just changed global.ent?
<froud> jsgotangco: yes, and since I am very lazy I will script the part about changing the value language in i18n.sh :-)
<froud> that way we need do nothing
<froud> well except we need to run the script
<froud> but we do that anyway to make the i18n XML file
<froud> :-)
<jsgotangco> you said before this would be easier when doing kubuntu docs because we dont have to rely on yelp and khtml is being used
<jsgotangco> but i guess it is needed if we need uniform docs between ubuntu and kubuntu and other derivatives in the future
<froud> jsgotangco: yes, and I have just commited a new gubuntu about doc with an example of usage
<froud> jsgotangco: yes but we have the same problem with the i18n management
<jsgotangco> ahh there
<froud> so anyone working on changing fileref values, please see the gubuntu about doc for example of sample usage
<froud> well time for school run. then must work, back to deadlines
<trickie> later
<trickie> yes i must be off also... see ya guys!
<jsgotangco> there's a new entity
<jsgotangco> oh ok maybe later then
<froud> c ya
<froud> jsgotangco: if you want a nice job you can add the lang attribute to the root element of each document
<jsgotangco> all of them need that?
<froud> and add the language entity to the internal subset of each book. It's a copy paste job
<froud> wel yes
<froud> but for example if you are doing a german book
<froud> then you would do
<jsgotangco> <!ENTITY % language "&EnglishAmerican;">
<froud> <!ENTITY % language "&German;">
<froud> jsgotangco: here is an example of German
<froud> <!DOCTYPE article PUBLIC "-//OASIS//DTD DocBook XML V4.1.2//EN" 
<froud> 	"http://www.oasis-open.org/docbook/xml/4.1.2/docbookx.dtd" [
<froud> <!ENTITY % globalent SYSTEM "../../../libs/global.ent">
<froud> %globalent;
<froud> <!ENTITY % cdo-C SYSTEM "../../../libs/cdo-C.ent">
<froud> %cdo-C;
<froud> <!ENTITY % gnome SYSTEM "../../libs/gnome.ent">
<froud> %gnome;
<froud> <!ENTITY % gnome-menus-C SYSTEM "../../libs/gnome-menus-C.ent">
<froud> %gnome-menus-C;
<froud> <!ENTITY % language "&German;">
<froud> ] >
<jsgotangco> yes
<froud> <article id="art-about-ubuntu" status="complete" lang="%language;">
<froud>     <title>
<jsgotangco> ohh
<froud>         <inlinemediaobject>
<froud>             <imageobject>
<froud>                 <imagedata fileref="../../images/%language;/IconUbuntu.png" format="PNG"/>
<froud>             </imageobject>
<froud>         </inlinemediaobject>
<froud>     </title>
<froud> altough in reality the image for ubuntu in any lang is the same :-)
<jsgotangco> ohhh
<jsgotangco> i see 2 changes
<jsgotangco> in the fileref and the language entity
<jsgotangco> did i get that right
<froud> Ok do svn up so you can now see the third change
<froud> yes
<froud> school run brb
<jsgotangco> ok got this
<froud> jsgotangco: back, so you understand it. Would you mind implimenting it for us. I will be in meetings for a large part of the day.
<jsgotangco> i just finished it
<jsgotangco> for about ubuntu
<jsgotangco> froud, its done for about ubuntu
<jsgotangco> committed
<jsgotangco> doing quick-guides now
<jsgotangco> adminguide, quickguide, releasenotes (en and i18n), userguide committed
<jsgotangco> froud, please check when you are free
<jsgotangco> froud, i took the liberty of editing everything in gubuntu
<Kinnison> Morning
<jsgotangco> hi!
<jsgotangco> grr whats wrong with gmail
<mdke> morning
<jsgotangco> mdke, hi
<mdke> jsgotangco, hi
<mdke> what is all this about "gubuntu"
<jsgotangco> <grin>
<jsgotangco> its just a docteam term
<jsgotangco> come one
<jsgotangco> -e
<mdke> i find it confusing
<mdke> at least until it is adopted by Ubuntu
<jsgotangco> thats strange gmail gives me 404
<mdke> works here
<jsgotangco> ill use konqueror
<jsgotangco> Gmail is temporarily unavailable. Cross your fingers and try again in a few minutes. We're sorry for the inconvenience.
<jsgotangco> doh
<mdke> jsgotangco, what did you edit?
* mdke scrolls up
<mdke> oh cool
<mdke> nice one froud_ 
<jsgotangco> heh
<jsgotangco> im not so sure about this but i guess its the correct way
<jsgotangco> hi mpt 
<mpt> Greetings jsgotangco
<jsgotangco> arrgghh why does konqueror always crash lately
<mdke> hi mpt 
<mpt> hello
<mdke> please to meet you, i'm matt
<mpt> Matts are good
<mdke> yeep
<jsgotangco> bah
<jsgotangco> <grin>
<mdke> omg
<mdke> some crazy guy just wrote this
<jsgotangco> wut?
<mdke> https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/StopGnomeFromRestarting
* mdke puts a fat warning on it
<jsgotangco> doh
<jsgotangco> we hateses our wiki more than ever
<jsgotangco> oohh headers now have drop shadow
<mdke> jsgotangco, i don't have my ubuntu machine on me, what runlevel is gdm in, rc2 or rcS?
<mdke> can you check for me?
<mdke> also gimme the filename if poss
<jsgotangco> how do i do that?
<mdke> ls /etc/rc2.d
<mdke> ls /etc/rcS.d
<mdke> or find /etc/rc* -name "*gdm*"
<jsgotangco> /etc/rc0.d/K01gdm
<jsgotangco> /etc/rc1.d/K01gdm
<jsgotangco> /etc/rc2.d/S13gdm
<jsgotangco> /etc/rc3.d/S13gdm
<jsgotangco> /etc/rc4.d/S13gdm
<jsgotangco> /etc/rc5.d/S13gdm
<jsgotangco> /etc/rc6.d/K01gdm
<mdke> thanks
* jsgotangco is not into this sort of thing
<mpt> jsgotangco: Really "now have drop shadow", or just "I just started using Konqueror"? :-)
<mdke> goddam
<mdke> now look at https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/StopGnomeFromRestarting
<mdke> why oh why doesn't the text in the box just drop to the next line instead of endlessly extending out left
<jsgotangco> that's konqueror?
* jsgotangco blushes
<jsgotangco> oh my
<jsgotangco> ok im going to eat first
<jsgotangco> dinner time
<jsgotangco> brb
<jjesse> morning
<jjesse> or whatever time of day it is around you
<jsgotangco> hello world
<jsgotangco> waa i said a mouthful
<abelli> everybody ciao
<jsgotangco> ciao? but you just arrived
<abelli> justo (giusto)
<abelli> correct, ciao is when you meet and when you leave someone
<jsgotangco> oohh
<abelli> dualism (like with Hegel)
<jsgotangco> i see
<jsgotangco> ok i gotta sleep
<jsgotangco> nite nite
<jsgotangco> ciao!
<abelli> buona notte
<jsgotangco> is that italian
<abelli> si
<abelli> bonne nuit
<jsgotangco> goodie..ill learn that one day
<jsgotangco> nite
<mdke> yo
<mdke> hi froud 
<froud> hi
<abelli> froud: ciao
<froud> sawubona abelli 
<mdke> whoa that is a seriously long email
* mdke puts on his reading spectacles
<froud> yeah enjoy
<abelli> froud: tanta gnocca to you too
<mdke> *grins*
<mdke> hi abelli 
<mdke> froud, thats nice work :)
<froud> thanks hope it clears it up. I know we discussed it on the channel but that is only a handful of people on the list
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> wiki page?
<mdke> that is a very comprehensive email
<froud> wiki, dunno
<froud> maybe
<froud> you thik
<froud> think
<mdke> its not urgent, but might be useful for translators at a later stage
<froud> Perhaps forward it to translators lists
<froud> I am not subscribed
<mdke> well it essentially only affects the english documents because the translation will be done by pot files i guess
<mdke> so i think you sent it to the right list
<mdke> we will need to dig it out when converting into pot files
<mdke> am i right that jsgotango has already converted the main documents in accordance with your new language entity?
<froud> form the commits I see this is so :-)
<mdke> awesome
<froud> Having done this I realize one mor ething
<froud> I need to do the same thing for menus
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> yeah i guess
<froud> Busy now with a plan for a "Content Specification Phase"
<froud> this is my thinking, tell me what you think
<froud> Create wiki pages for each book
<froud> Determine the goals and objectives via way of encouraging users to input what they think the book should be
<froud> Perform a task analysis based on this
<froud> Define a Product Description
<mdke> yeah i would appreciate that
<froud> with an audience profile
<mdke> i find the mailing list discussion a little heavy ;)
<mdke> what about meetings, you think they would be useful for that stage?
<froud> Organize the publication in outline and annotate
<froud> start work
<mdke> sounds good
<froud> meetings are wasting time IMHO
<froud> I like to do
<froud> I think that by providing an infrustructure to get user input now we can get things done
<froud> we dont have any analysis to go on and we are pissing against the wind
<mdke> yes i suppose a wiki page might attract more input than a meeting
<froud> The wiki is a good vehicle to collect the thoughts of users via way of thier commnets
<abelli> mdke: im happy you think so :)
<abelli> froud: what are you going to do? books?
<froud> abelli: until such time I have a help engine that allows be to do otherwise, yes
<mdke> froud, we have to make sure users see the page tho
<froud> The channels, the user lists
<abelli> froud: what kind of books .
<abelli> ?
<mdke> froud, yes lists are good, also linking on frontpage
<froud> abelli: that the users will tell us
<froud> yes
<abelli> froud: ... so why not a simple poll?
<mdke> we will certainly need a Userguide
<abelli> on ubuntulinux.org page?
<froud> I am typing an email with a proposal to th elist I will send it to Mark and Company at Canonical
<abelli> mdke: there are thousands of user guide (wheels) out there ...
<froud> abelli: that is what we are proposing
<abelli> froud: learnlinux ... huh right ... what about the bugzilla advert thing?
<froud> abelli: the technicallity of how we execute it is not so important. What is important that we gather the right information by asking the right questions
<froud> abelli: yeah if the systeadmin woul dget back from leave
<mdke> bugzilla advert?
<froud> mdke: a private joke
<mdke> ah
<mdke> systemadmin?
<froud> th elearnLinux bigzilla keeps bugging us
<mdke> ah ok
<froud> and the sysadmin either is to busy or is not there or you know the story
<froud> mdke: Ok I am going for a 4 phase plan then
<froud> 1. Create goals and objectives for the publication
<froud> 2. Analyze the Product, User Environment
<froud> 3. Analyze the tasks the user wants to perform
<froud> 4. Organize the documents and prepare the rational
<froud> seem ok
<froud> ?
<mdke> yeah
<froud> Ok cool
<abelli> froud: well i think that right questions should be asked the right way.
<abelli> so it might be important considering where and when you ask them (the story of my life).
<froud> abelli: when we get to developing them you can give input
<abelli> i dont think that the normal user can tell you what to do.
<froud> first lets create the action stages and then do one by one, each has its challenges
<froud> baby steps
<froud> but i agree that the questions must be put correctly
* froud goes back to writing
<abelli> froud: make me dream.
<froud> of what naked girls, you're not old enough :-)
<froud> sex maniac
<froud> and italian to boot
<froud> sex maniac on steriods
<abelli> froud: ive been in france last week (my life-love's place)
<abelli> im a better boy now.
<froud> Oh boy dont get me started on french girls, give me italian girls anyday
<abelli> froud: a poll on the telly they are the hottest in europe .. i mean italian ones.
<froud> you been to CZ
<froud> drop dead gorgious
<abelli> froud: please ...
<abelli> avoid me this kind of ...
<froud> I am happy with my Romain/Hunagrian/Israeli model tough
<mdke> italians are the best
<mdke> but the best looking men are the english
<froud> nice until 30
<froud> same for English men
<mdke> lol
<abelli> mdke: ok . now you can freely shut up.
<mdke> we come into our own at 30
<froud> yeah beer belly and red face with white hair
<froud> :-)
<froud> guess it matches the flag
<abelli> froud: beer ... you're so old-fashioned .... bacardi breezer duuuude.
<abelli> Cturtle_: buona sera
<froud> red wine
<abelli> naaaa ...
<froud> good with pizza
<abelli> huh btw, which one is better italian or french (cultural poll)?
<froud> better with blue chese
<abelli> froud: ok you're out.
* mdke strokes his beer belly and shines his red face
<abelli> thank you for being here ... you can take your u're fluo cheese.
<froud> lived in England for 4 years, best thing about it was Irish, the Guiness
<mdke> whereabouts?
* abelli says little girls' easy-goingNESS.
<froud> London, West Hampstead
<abelli> mdke: brixton
<mdke> nice
<abelli> froud: noblesse d'oblige
<froud> mdke: yep Kilburn High Road just down the hill :-)
<abelli> froud: school disco?
<froud> going to pub was easy
<froud> getting back home was not so easy
<froud> and it was uphill
<froud> but a cool dip in the nood pools was always guaranteed to sober you up and cool you down
<froud> nude
<froud> which reminds me I must go renew my passport
<froud> everytime I go to Pretoria I forget to go to the consul
<abelli> pretoria?
<abelli> did italian go in SA?
<abelli> s
<froud> http://www.pta.co.za/
<mdke> froud, do you have that link on you from that guy who wrote the guide on installing without media?
<froud> yes, somewhere
<abelli> i was talking about the name
<froud> hey dudes you are a bad influence I must work and you keep talking
<abelli> froud: where's god gone ?
<abelli> lately.
<froud> keep telling you he is a myth
<abelli> the more i move towarrds neurosciences ... the more i love you.
<froud> he exists because you do
<froud> so he is like your shadow
<froud> were you are he is
<froud> abelli is god
<abelli> froud: i knew that. 
<abelli> but i can tell you that different cultures give different ppl.
<abelli> you're "mdke: come si dice occidentale?"
<froud> people will think we are mad if we start this conversation here and I am 2 tired to rant on this today
<mdke> abelli, erm...
<mdke> westerner?
<abelli> and this makes you think that individuality is more important than the "mdke: collettivita'"
<mdke> group?
<abelli> froud: this is the typical reasonment of a person that after 2 books thinks to be mastering the subject...
<abelli> mdke: grazie
<mdke> heh my translating is rubbish
<abelli> mdke: si lo sappiamo . yes, we know.
<abelli> :)
<abelli> i was looking something more noblesse_d'oblige for "collettivita'", im talking to  froud ... you know.
<froud> cant understand a thing you are saying, but ok, yes, yes and yes
<mdke> italian lends itself to philosophy better than english
<froud> oh boy why did I start
<froud> somebody give abelli a pacifier
<abelli> froud: can i call you "mamma"?
<froud> yes my son
<abelli> mmm well, what about "magister"?
<froud> how to bring the temprement out of an Italian
<abelli> froud: ... your work ...
<froud> yes my son, it was hard work
<abelli> froud: no i mean. .. you should return to your work.
<froud> abelli: but you are my lifes work
<abelli> mdke: define temprement how froud's used it.
<abelli> froud: yeah live me stronger.
<mdke> abelli, no idea ;)
<froud> mdke: is playing English
<abelli> the typical Londoner...
* froud has visions of Punks in Camdon
* mdke shudders
<abelli> Camdon? the Mid-Land?
<froud> No the market
<abelli> between the Ciouty and Grinchley?
<abelli> froud: ...i was Lord of The Ringing your mispelling ... sorry.
<froud> not worried boy spelling now
<froud> give me a break
<froud> all I do all day is worry about spelling
<abelli> ok, but please the bugzilla  thing.
<abelli> i unsubscribed from ubuntu-it for quite the same reason ...
* froud thinks, "Geeze Italians know how to nag."
<abelli> are you talking about Jeez Capello... disco music hero?
<mdke> i'm going to watch Friends
<abelli> froud: pleading you with my eyes twice in 6 months is not nagging you ... 
<froud> :-)
<froud> chow
<abelli> ciao
<hypatia> last chance for people to let me know their availability for an IRC meeting...
#ubuntu-doc 2005-04-27
<jsgotangco> morning
<mdke> good night :)
<jsgotangco> acckk
<jsgotangco> froud's email was long icckkk
<jsgotangco> but explained clearly
<mdke> yeah
<jsgotangco> but golly, my edits still didnt show images i guess he's going to change global.ent
<jsgotangco> ok ill see you guys later im the one cooking breakfast today
<jsgotangco> bbl
<froud> African Greetings
<Burgundavia> salut
<Burgundavia> everybody loves 4am meetings
<jeffsch> hey froud
<jeffsch> there is a booboo in the i18n solution :(
<jeffsch> I did some research today to find out why jsgotangco's excellent updates were not working.
<jeffsch> <!ENTITY % language "&EnglishAmerican;"> is not entirely correct.
<jeffsch> The '%' makes 'language' a parameter entity.
<jeffsch> Parameter entities can only be used in a DTD.
<jeffsch> In the document itself you must use general entities such as '&language;'
<jeffsch> Therefore, this is how it should be:
<jeffsch> <!ENTITY language "&EnglishAmerican;">
<jeffsch> <imagedata fileref="../../images/&language;/IconUbuntu.png" format="PNG"/>
<jeffsch> I tried it in yelp with 'C' and 'it' languages. It works like that.
<jeffsch> I committed a couple of changes. Can you verify that what I did is correct? Then we can update the rest.
<froud> jeffsch: hi, just hold lemme test
<froud> yes you a re right
<froud> it is my fault
<froud> I did say use a param ent
<jeffsch> bah. just a typo.
<froud> no I said use a param ent
<froud> I must send an update to that message I sent
<jeffsch> froud: on a different topic: in yelp for quickguide, etc, xref's show up as block elements
<jeffsch> they are larger fonts, on their own lines, etc
<jeffsch> but on yelp with update manager they are correctly used as inline elements, with clickable links
<froud> Yes, I noted this as a bug after release
<froud> we fixed it at our meeting and then it was forgotten to include it in the releave by the devs
<froud> geeze I hate being dependant on yelp
<jeffsch> it's what's there
<jeffsch> do we have the power to change?
<froud> Sure
<froud> For now I would like just to use a plain web browser
<froud> and research into a new help viewer
<jeffsch> must build consensus first though. will take some time.
<froud> Sure
<froud> did you read the message from JanC
<froud> I think a blend of wxWidget's/wxPython's help system + a 'system-wide'
<froud> indexing system like Beagle + maybe yelp could become a better
<froud> documentation environment...
<jeffsch> yes, but I didn't look into it... was busy with entities...
<froud> Burgundavia: yeah 4 am is harsh
<Burgundavia> I will just stay up
<Burgundavia> I am the only person out my way anyway
<froud> I will update them in the other docs
<froud> What time is it for South Africa
<jeffsch> Burgundavia: vancouver's not that far :)
<Burgundavia> ok
<Burgundavia> I forgot about you
<froud> The time is UTC and I only know GMT
<jeffsch> utc = gmt,no?
<Burgundavia> ahh UTC==GMT?
<froud> is it?
<froud> so she means 10 pm GMT?
<jeffsch> 4am here is 1pm there
<froud> on Sunday
<Burgundavia> according to WP it doews
<jeffsch> 1pm in za
<froud> so then UTC is not GMT
<froud> confused
<froud> I hate the time zones
<froud> just use internet time 
<froud> used it for 4 years
<froud> the same time everywhere
<froud> is there an ez web site work this tuff out
<Burgundavia> UTC is GMT
<jeffsch> UTC is GMT. 1200 UTC = 1200 GMT = 1pm za
<jeffsch> http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/personal.html
<froud> Oh cause we are =2 or something
<froud> Burgundavia: 
<froud> Sunday, April 17, 2005 at 10:00:00	Sun Noon
<froud> Sunday, April 17, 2005 at 11:00:00	Sun 1:00 PM
<froud> so 10 is noon
<Burgundavia> ok
<froud> Hmm thanks for that web site
<froud> geeze internet time is so much easier
<froud> jeffsch: all updates are now done
<froud> jeffsch: thanks for checking that
<jeffsch> np
<froud> ok I have a question for you guys
<froud> and anyone else who is listening
<froud> so far we are just going by the seat of our pants when it comes to deining documents
<froud> defining
<froud> I think it will be a worthwhile excercise for us to ask the users what they want
<froud> wiki is perfect for this
<froud> I want to get Content Specifications, User Analysis and that stuff
<froud> Lets actualy learn who the audience is and what tasks they want to know about
<froud> how long using linux and what problems did they have
<froud> put a poll up and ask for answers and provide place to give commnet
<froud> thoughts?
<Burgundavia> sounds good
<jeffsch> let's just cut to the chase and design for users new to linux, but not new to computers.
<jeffsch> aren't they the target market?
<froud> not really
<froud> you see we also have admins
<froud> and people who have used linux
<jeffsch> people new to administering linux? or people new to administering ubuntu?
<froud> My normal, formal approach, to writing is 4 steps:
<froud> 1. Create goals and objectives for the publication
<froud> 2. Analyze the product, audience, and environment
<froud> 3. Analyze the tasks the audience wants to perform
<froud> 4. Organize the publications and prepare rational
<froud> This gives me:
<jeffsch> that's pretty much what I learned in school. make a document plan - it has user-task analysis, TOC, etc
<froud> a. Purpose of the guide
<froud> b. Product Desription
<froud> c. Audience profile
<froud> d task analysis
<froud> from this I can outline to the exact user requirements
<mpt> sounds good
<froud> jeffsch: yes, obviously it is more complex
<froud> mpt: hi, please to meet you
<mpt> likewise
<froud> mpt: thanks for your feedabck
<mpt> arg
<froud> I think by putting it open for contributions form the users we can get a better handle on what we should do
<mpt> I meant to reply to Mary's message but it got lost in Thunderbird
<froud> we have not done this
<froud> Maybe people at Canonical can help us short circuit this if they have market and user analysis already done
<froud> mpt?
<mpt> I doubt that
<mpt> but that's not really my area
<mpt> You'd be better asking jdub about that, I think
<froud> Then I think this excercise will have huge benefit outside the docteam
<mpt> other than being the dominant Linux-based OS
<froud> mpt: nah I just ask Mark
<mpt> that would work too
<mpt> though it might be slower :-)
<froud> no he is responsive
<froud> if it seems important to him
<froud> another idea
<froud> I am really tired of Yelp
<froud> I mean it
<mpt> so fork it
<froud> Oh yeah and develop it?
<froud> no, short circuit me = lazy
<Burgundavia> yelp is also gtk
<froud> me = focus on docs
<mpt> Well, which would be quicker? Adding search to yelp, or writing a new help viewer?
<froud> using any browser XHTML/HTML + CSS and jscript
<froud> htdig search
<jeffsch> is that the only thing wrong with yelp? lack of search?
<froud> jeffsch: no
<froud> poor custom abilities without editing the source
<froud> proprietry tags like ghelp
<mpt> custom abilities like what?
<mpt> Like <a href="some-magic">Open the Keyboard applet for me</a>
<mpt> ?
<froud> use an dubuntu custom layer to style the resulting output not only that of yelp
<froud> invalid processing instructions like <?yelp:chunk-depth 3?>
<froud> lack of support for docbook 4.3 >
<froud> lack of support for SVG
<froud> thi slist is long
<froud> oh an dit is slow on mpt 's lappy
<mpt> heh
<mpt> and ...
<froud> chaps I think like this
<froud> you all know how the quick guide looks
<mpt> ... 19 seconds!
<froud> imagine if you have associated tasks on the right side of the screencapt
<froud> a list that is dynamically built by jscript and formatted using css
<froud> Ability to do popups
<froud> ability to create comments inline to the help system
<froud> ability to share comments and send them
<mpt> I'm trying to think of use cases for dynamically built lists and popups
<froud> mpt: easy
<mpt> Apple Help uses HTML nowadays, but the result is that every non-Apple help file looks different, and that's bad
<froud> This is x app. It is use to do Y.
<mpt> e.g. different font sizes for no reason
<froud> alongside all the tasks assocaited with the app
<froud> our stylesheets control that
<froud> Apple should use Docbook
<mpt> wait, wait
<mpt> So Apple should switch from HTML to Docbook, and Ubuntu should switch from Docbook to HTML?
<mpt> :-)
<froud> mpt: no
<froud> we use docbook as a semantic format for storage
<froud> it is presnetation layer neutral
<froud> we transform from xml to html
<froud> or pdf or ps or rtf or what ever
<froud> yelp does this under the covers
<froud> that is one reason why it takes so long to load
<mpt> Why does it do any transformations at all?
* mpt knows little about yelp
<froud> yelp takes raw xml and transfroms it to html for viewing
<froud> xml is not a presentation format
<mpt> XML+CSS is presentable
<mpt> ah, but it's not linkable
<froud> it seperates the concrns of content and presentation
<froud> not so easy
<mpt> XML+XSL even more so
<froud> mpt: let me explain
<froud> The Docbook XSLs are powerful
<froud> we can transform to XHTML, HTML, PDF, HTML help, JAVAHelp, etc
<froud> it has support for gen texts in i18n
<froud> the work is done
<mpt> ok
<froud> we put Docbook XML and XSL into an xslt processor
<froud> that gives us a presentation format
<froud> the format depends on the XSL used
<froud> now we dont hack the docbook package sources
<froud> we create a custom layer
<froud> this allows us to change the standard formating provided by the docbook packages
<froud> when the docbook packages are upgraded we inherit all the updaes
<froud> and all we do is maintain our custom later
<mpt> So can you get rid of those previous and next links at the bottom of each page, for example?
<froud> yes
<mpt> hooray
<froud> but not in yelp
<mpt> then what?
<froud> because we would have to hack the yelp xsl and compile it again
<froud> so I say screw yelp
<froud> it is to inlexible and give overhead
<froud> go to any browser 
<froud> we have ful control
<Burgundavia> browser isn't much faster to load though
<mpt> ok, but you're still going to need to make a help viewer, froud
<froud> in our custom layer
<froud> no
<froud> for now we do HTML Help
<froud> and CSS it and manipulate with jscript
<froud> this gives us a toc and pages
<froud> we have full control of the toc
<froud> a search facility is also easy
<mpt> actual Web browser chrome, complete with bookmarks bars and "Send Link..." and cookie prefs and its own help menu that's mostly about browsing, just would not work as a help UI
<froud> mpt: atually most people spend there time on the web looking for help
<froud> thier
<mpt> I thought most people spent their time on the web bidding on auctions and looking at porn
<Burgundavia> mpt, that is most office workers
<froud> amongst other things
<froud> mpt: I am not saying using a full web browser is the ideal answer
<froud> I amsaying that it is workable immediately
<froud> with a level of control to us
<froud> oneday, maybe somebody will build a good help viewer
<froud> but frankly I think the days of help viewers are numbered in single digits
<mpt> I'm still waiting for a good one
<mpt> but even Windows ME's one was better than a Web browser
<froud> mpt: by going this route we have another advantage
<froud> the help system can be loaded from a web server or local disk
<mpt> That involves fun security considerations
<froud> like
<mpt> like, the various security vulnerabilities in the Windows help viewer that, over the years, have allowed attackers to run arbitrary programs
<froud> I dont se the point
<mpt> because it uses the IE HTML rendering engine
<mpt> and can view remote stuff
<froud> and we will use any browsers rendering engine
<froud> I still dont see why this is a problem
<mpt> ok, so
<mpt> how do you get the search field into the UI?
<froud> loading a page from a web site is something mils of user do every day
<froud> Ah ha, XForms
<froud> and andthing like cgi
<froud> even python
<froud> there are numbers of tools for that
<froud> Goodness we can even integrate google
<froud> or lucerne
<froud> the power is endless
<froud> for admins help can be installe don the server only
<froud> for home users on thier local
<mpt> So, no help topic on "Troubleshooting server connections" then? :-)
<froud> topics need to be analyzed
<froud> and can be personalized
<mpt> Do any other OSes personalize the topics in their help system?
<jsgotangco> froud: i screwed up?
<mpt> That sounds like running before walking to me
<froud> jsgotangco: no I did
<froud> mpt: vision dude
<jsgotangco> it should have been & then
<froud> just caus ethey dont have does not mean it is not wanted
<froud> jsgotangco: yes, my mistake , sorry
<froud> thanks to jeffsch for spotting it
<jeffsch> froud: you forgot <!ENTITY language "&EnglishAmerican;">
<froud> mpt: you complain about it but fail to look beyond for a better solution
<jeffsch> I am changing them now
<froud> jeffsch: why does that need changing?
<froud> jeffsch: you mean in the i18n docs
<mpt> froud: I'm not complaining, I'm wondering why you don't just take the first step first
<jeffsch> froud: yes
<froud> what is that first step, where does it lead
<mpt> froud: which is to start with the things most people will be wanting to know, most of the time
<froud> jeffsch: yes, thanks
<mpt> froud: then if you get really smart later, you can personalize it
<froud> lets seperate things here
<froud> the help system app and the content it displays
<froud> for content I am proposing we do an analysis that includes user inpt
<froud> for the help system I am prposing moving away from yelp so that we can excert control
<jsgotangco> i'd go for the migrant's guide (like playing stuff, office work, etc.)
<mpt> froud, unless you're going to collect that user input by sneaking up behind people using Ubuntu and watching them, I think you'd be better just to guess
<froud> mpt: yelp uses scrollkeeper to decide what goes in the first page
<mpt> what's scrollkeeper?
<froud> mpt: I dont think so
<mpt> froud: Because any other way you collect it -- surveys, wiki pages, mailing lists, whatever -- acts as an enormous barrier to entry. The kind of people who most need help are the kind of people who will never edit a wiki or post on a mailing list.
<mpt> And in surveys in general, people will lie so as not to sound dumb.
<froud> mpt: as I said, this is why one has to understand the doc systems. I hear your grievances, I agree with most, but to get a solution I must think outside the box
<jsgotangco> are you saying we make our guide like a dummies book?
<mpt> So, my suggestion is: guess. :-)
<froud> I want and educated guess
<mpt> ok, I'll re-reply to Mary's message now
<froud> mpt: Uhmm, now you leave
<mpt> eh?
<froud> mpt: you going
<mpt> It's 8pm, the cafe closes in an hour or less
<mpt> I'll hang around here while I can, though
<froud> I c you are in an Internet Cafe
<mpt> Yes, no DSL at home yet
<mpt> and Ubuntu doesn't understand the laptop's modem
<froud> Oh OK
<froud> yes heard that from a number of users
<froud> well team, what do you guys think of this conversation and the ideas we have bashed
<jsgotangco> ive tuned in late
<jsgotangco> i still want a dummy guide
<froud> js read the logs
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, dummy guide ala the faqguide is coming
<froud> dummy guides are good but not like by all
<Burgundavia> dummy guides sell like hotcakes
<froud> I dontthink we can say what we want. We should ask the users to gleen what they want, then decide
<jsgotangco> i would think more of the migrating users
<Burgundavia> they must have something going for them
<jeffsch> i still like "let's just cut to the chase and design for users new to linux, but not new to computers."
<jsgotangco> jeffsch right on target
<froud> Burgundavia: yes they do cause they address a need in one audience
<jsgotangco> people who install ubuntu know how to play around with their computers
<Burgundavia> froud, a very large audience, if the sales are to be believed
<froud> but for my user profile I want O'Reilly or SAMS
<Burgundavia> froud, so do I, but I don't need docs written for me
<Burgundavia> I can search the internet for that
<froud> The major market segment is huge
<froud> Burgundavia: no we use man pages
<froud> :-)
<Burgundavia> ugh, man pages
<Burgundavia> what a waste of time mostly
<jsgotangco> ickk
<froud> Oh no dude love man pages
<froud> ssh in to remote and you have help
<jeffsch> i use them all the time. i always forget command line stuff.
<froud> I am speaking about no GUI here
<froud> I dont go to yelp for help on commnad stuff
<jsgotangco> true
<froud> I just man foo
<jsgotangco> dont we all
<Burgundavia> I like GUIs and the power they give
<Burgundavia> in fact, I like GUIs so much that I hate ugly ones
<mpt> I wish more man pages had a couple of good examples at the beginning
<froud> Burgundavia: agree 1000%
<Burgundavia> ala xmms and mplayer and other gtk1 crap
<mpt> then I wouldn't need to read the rest of them :-)
<Burgundavia> mpt, absolutely. Show me, in examples, the 4 most commons ways that program is used
<froud> mpt: man pages assume a level of proficeincy that is above our user
<mpt> naturally
<froud> Burgundavia: if we use the HTML/CSS/JSCRIPT route I am proposing we can break from the top down vertical approach common in current help systems
<Burgundavia> froud, top down?
<froud> yes see a gnome manual
<froud> each topic is vertical
<froud> it would be nice to have side bars and tool tips
<froud> Some links dont have to be clicked
<froud> Just hold your mouse pointer over it
<jsgotangco> thats not possible with yelp but with a browser based system
<froud> and you see the text
<mpt> froud, the thing about help is
<froud> jsgotangco: that is what I am saying
<mpt> and help developers on every OS get this wrong
<mpt> the thing about help is that it needs to be *alongside* what I'm doing
<mpt> so it needs to be, maybe, 200px wide.
<froud> mpt: no problem
<jsgotangco> hmmm
<mpt> otherwise I keep having to flip between the help and the program I'm trying to use
<mpt> forward and back, forward and back
<froud> most programming envs have browser controls
<mpt> and it's too much bother
<jsgotangco> alongside, is that similiar to a help system in MS Office
<Burgundavia> and every time I flip I have to reorient myself
<mpt> Yes, Works and Office both solve that problem, in slightly different ways
<jeffsch> mpt: acrobat 7 does that. 200 px wide on right hand side of screen
<Burgundavia> so we need support for dynamic shrinking
<froud> using the method I am proposing devs can embed a browser control at any position in the workspace
<mpt> A pity that the actual OS help system doesn't :-)
<froud> jeffsch: yes and we can use that
<Burgundavia> jeffsch, adobe reader 7is evil
<jeffsch> i not talking about reader.
<froud> Burgundavia: dynamic shinking is can be done
<froud> but images
<jsgotangco> ok if its 200 px wide, it shouldn't be as high as the actual application
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, why not?
<jeffsch> acrobat 7 for creating and manipulating pdf. reviewing docs.
<Burgundavia> jeffsch, the actual thing, not the reader, ok
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia you eat up real estate space on the application
<froud> dudes the technology is not important
<Burgundavia> jeffsch, I really wish they would rebrand the reader to avoid this kind of confusion
<froud> the concept is
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, but the app has just shrunk 200, so that top corner is going to be wasted
<jsgotangco> froud maybe something similar to Opera's small screen rendering
<froud> jsgotangco: yes there is another idea
<jeffsch> Burgundavia: they more interested in the money than the clarity, i suspect.
<froud> mypointis that via html route we can do this stuff easily
<Burgundavia> jeffsch, yes
<Burgundavia> jeffsch, reader 7 has a semi-spyware in it
<mpt> oh man
* mpt is reading random Gnome help pages
<mpt> this is depressing
<jsgotangco> what?
<froud> Ok, I see you guys are not into discussing solutions I am off t go be productive
<jsgotangco> no
<jsgotangco> im all for discussion
<jsgotangco> i believe an html based system is easier and can be changed system wide at the least possible time
<froud> jsgotangco: yes, but we need the group here
<froud> trying to keep on topic in IRC is a nighmare
<froud> I am focused on concepts that will work
<froud> ideas from the group are important
<froud> not what technology to use
<froud> or that x app is evil
<froud> hello daven
<jsgotangco> ok resizing the text is quite easy but we'll have a problem in the images/screenshots
<daven> hiya
<jsgotangco> but Opera dynamically resizes stuff with SSR
<froud> jsgotangco: perhaps we can just generate links to images
<mpt> jsgotangco: If I already have a program open, screenshots are not terribly interesting.
<jsgotangco> maybe somethine like that
<froud> jsgotangco: yes that is Opera
<froud> we need any bowser
<mpt> jsgotangco: If you have pictures at all, just make them pictures of what button to click.
<Burgundavia> then we don't need the full power of ff
<froud> we cannot mandate what user agent our docs will run under
<jsgotangco> zoom into the actual stuff?
<Burgundavia> we need mozembed
<froud> Burgundavia: exaplain
<Burgundavia> if we are only talked at a minimum 600 tall by 200 wide, then the ui of ff is too much
<froud> ff?
<froud> firefox
<Burgundavia> mozembed is the gecko rendering engine
<froud> ok
<froud> why is that a problem
<Burgundavia> can be really easily done with python
<froud> how
<Burgundavia> because the ff ui is already going to eat up 25% of that space, and isn't designed to be run at 200px wide
<jeffsch> keep in mind 200px is just a number tossed out there
<jeffsch> it could be more
<Burgundavia> 200px is already a quarter of someones 800X600 screen
<froud> OK OK, lets clear something first
<froud> at present most apps dont support what we are saying here
<froud> what is importnat is that our format enables them too
<Burgundavia> and yelp already uses gecko
<mpt> I never said they had to resize themselves automatically
<Burgundavia> I am talking a seperate window
<mpt> I just want to be *able* to have them side by side
<Burgundavia> not part of the app
<mpt> the windows, side by side
<froud> mpt: can be in windows or in embeded expand/collapse control
<jeffsch> yes, the windows, side by side
<froud> so long as the window or control reads html/XHML, CSS and supports jscript were fine
<froud> I thnk that devs will decide on how they will impliment it
<jeffsch> design the help system, then determine the technology to use
<froud> what we need to endure is that they can read and render in a standard way
<froud> jeffsch: yes
<froud> but keep in mind
<froud> we must make it flexible and easy for apps and the devs to use
<froud> the simplest solution IMHO is the X/HTML route
<froud> our prime focus is not the application layer and we have little control over it
<froud> what we do have control over is the structure and meat of our content and the format in which we make it accessible
<froud> we can however suggest various methods for viewing and make input for usability recomendations
<froud> OK lets see if we have the skill set needed
<froud> I take it we all are comfortable with docbook
<froud> and the method we use to transform
<froud> who codes html here
<froud> who knows css
<froud> who knows jscript
<froud> who understands and can impliment an idexing and search facility
<jsgotangco> i know html and css
<jsgotangco> ive done some xml but not docbook but im learning
<froud> cool any other skills
<froud> any python boys here
<jeffsch> I know html, css, jscript, but am far from expert.
<froud> jeffsch: great
<jeffsch> I fooled around with python last year. will take some time to get back into it.
<froud> but you can muddle through
<froud> enough to finally get waht you want?
<jeffsch> oh yea. It takes a long time though... lots of poring over python docs
<froud> ok :-)
<froud> so with the current speakers we do have the skill set for what we want to do
<froud> I will focus on the XML and XSLT
<jeffsch> and the doc content? who will focus on that?
<froud> :-) all of us
<froud> but I would like to do the needs analysis before hacking the content this time
<froud> chaps when I joined this project it was only really enrico and I who were serious
<froud> 2 people
<froud> we had people on the list and people in the channel, but they did not do much
<froud> since then we have quadrupled in size
<froud> this is both good and bad
<froud> good we can do more cover more ground
<froud> bad, we need more organization
<froud> roles and responsabilities now comes tomind
<froud> but I am afraid to say it
<froud> I know that I am commit here
<froud> I cant speak for everyone
<froud> some of us may come and go
<froud> that's open source
<froud> so I hope people will find what it is they want to do
<froud> and go for it
<jsg> sorry about that
<froud> everyon eon eof us is toatll empoered to do what ever we wish
<jeffsch> so each doc needs its own plan, its own design, a skeleton. Then people can come and go. just fill in the skeleton
<jsg> let me check the log first
<froud> jeffsch: yes that is the idea
<froud> hence I want specs etc
<jeffsch> and a style guide
<froud> jeffsch: that is a big task
<froud> we need to take styleguides from upstream
<froud> they are guides not rules
<jsg> who took html and css i can do that
<froud> jsg: more hands makes light work
<jeffsch> big task, but needed with lots of contributors.http://developer.gnome.org/documents/style-guide/ 
<froud> jeffsch: the specs etc are also good for new people joining mid stream
<jsg> souds good to me
<froud> it defines for them points where we are and wer ethey can fit
<froud> it saves us having the problem I had with Burgundavia 
* froud winkes at Burgundavia 
<Burgundavia> what issue? There was no issue
<jsg> i've messed with ruby not python :(
<froud> we are now at the beginning of a release cycle, if we spend 10% of our time planning it will save us much headache
<froud> we cannot plan if we
<froud> a. dontknow what users need
<froud> b. have no spec to follow
<froud> c. have no objectives to bind our focus
<jsg> b can be tough
<froud> I know that mpt thinks the analysis will be no good, does anyone else agree on this point
<Burgundavia> mpt analysis is useful as long it is: short, sweet and too the poing
<Burgundavia> the point, even
<mpt> It's quite easy to do analysis, it's just very time-consuming
<mpt> First, put some duct tape over your mouth
<mpt> second, watch someone use Ubuntu
<mpt> Repeat those two steps, as many times as you can
<Burgundavia> having watched people use windows, it is painful
<froud> mpt: we dont have a way to watch enough users
<mpt> froud: exactly
<jeffsch> i don't think we can get good info from users, and we will end up just designing for people new to linux but not new to computers
<mpt> froud: And any other way of doing it will be grossly inaccurate
<Burgundavia> yes we, mandatory spyng apps!!
<froud> so we know the problem now we need a solution
<jeffsch> after 4 months
<mpt> http://www.useit.com/alertbox/20010805.html
<froud> mpt: I dont think perfect is immediate
<froud> mpt: but something is better tan nothing
<mpt> http://64.233.179.104/search?q=cache:Gu3DlVK73xcJ:www.useit.com/alertbox/20010805.html+don%27t+listen+to+users&hl=en&lr=&client=firefox&strip=1
<jsg> why not consult our forums? we usually get common questions and stuff
<froud> I can listen to users I cant watch what they do, that is 50%
<froud> better than 0%
<Burgundavia> the forums have some pretty common questions that we could boil down in about a day to a couple of common things
<froud> mpt: that is not finding a solution, we need to be creative on this
<daven> a lot of the stuff is already in the wiki, as far as i can see
<daven> a lot of the common questions
<froud> daven: yes
<mpt> froud: I already suggested a solution: guess. I'm writing up my guess on the wiki now.
<Burgundavia> the most common problem is that of not finding the info they need, and not having a common place to send people
<daven> but users aren't finding it - either they're not looking or it's not accessible enough
<froud> not exactly for our purpose here but see this matix
<froud> http://linuxvm.org/penguinvm/presentations/LinuxUserProfile.html
<Burgundavia> http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:eqx-zkGesZ4J:www.nngroup.com/events/tutorials/camp.html+&hl=en&client=firefox
<Burgundavia> hmm, big surprise, 3 women out of 4 instructors
<froud> are people behind a study or not?
<froud> do you want 0% or 50%
<mdke> without having read the whole discussion...
<mdke> i support consulting users, but I think also we should use common sense to figure out what is required
<froud> mdke: hello dude
<mdke> yo
<jeffsch> i feel a study will take a long time and not accomplish much
<mpt> https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/LocalHelpOutline
<mpt> There you go
<jeffsch> it will take a month just to agree on how to conduct the study
<froud> I have templates and plans that I use for my projects
<mdke> yes i tend to agree with jeffsch that the time put in might not weigh up with the benefits gained, but I think it is important to take users needs into account :/
<mpt> Ok, I have to get out of here
<froud> mpt file that under he Doceam
<froud> Docteam
<froud> mpt thanks
<mpt> ok, tomorrow if I have time
<froud> sure
<froud> come to the meeting
<froud> jeffsch: it takes abot 10% of project time
<mdke> ok i'm out, see you guys tomorrow
<froud> Ok dudes think on what we has said here. It has been productive. I now have a meeting and must leave you for awhile. Thoughts and feeling to th elist
<froud> if you feel I am to pushing on this, say so
<jgotangco> ok sounds good im going to the barber
<jeffsch> i should go too. bed time.
* jeffsch is away: I'll be back
<Burgundavia> 95% of users questions could be solved by googling
<daven> burgundavia: i'm not that amazing at troubleshooting - reasonably new to linux.  i'm just sat there searching the wiki and google, and replying...
<Burgundavia> indeed
<Burgundavia> I can see why certain channels get reps though
<daven> i don't think people always understand that there isn't anyone on there who knows about *everything*
<Burgundavia> generally, you will find somebody who knows something
<Burgundavia> and the 90/10 rules helps you
<daven> what, 90% of questions on 10% of topics, or something?
<daven> yes - it does seem a pretty good bet
<daven> i'm waiting for a quiet moment for my question ;)
<Burgundavia> what is yours?
<Burgundavia> goog^H^H^HI might be able to help you
<daven> lol
<daven> i'll ask in the main room - might as well give others the benefit...
<abelli> halo
<Burgundavia> salut
<mpt> Ah, the joys of Win98
<jsgotangco> wow
<Burgundavia> mpt, when have you had to suffer that?
<jsgotangco> one reason i keep my windows here is because i play a couple of games
<mpt> Burgundavia: right now :-)
<Burgundavia> mpt, why, in gods are name, are you doing that?
<mpt> Burgundavia: Because I can't dial up on my laptop
<Burgundavia> mpt, oh fun
<jsgotangco> mpt same here
<Burgundavia> the joys of living in a big city in one of the most connected countries on the planet
<Burgundavia> last time I saw dialup was about 1 year ago, when I wasn;t in a big city
<daven> when i went on holiday i had to use GPRS - i'm still waiting for the bill :-s
<jsgotangco> dsl is still expensive in my place but its metered so i still use pre-paid dial up sometimes
<daven> hmm... how do they meter the dsl?
<jsgotangco> you pay per MB excess of the allocation they give you
<jsgotangco> its crap imo
<daven> right - what's the allocation?
<daven> i'm thinking about moving to a pay as you go broadband.
<jsg> gyaahh
<daven> for half the price 512Kbps unlimited, I could have 1Mbps with 1GB included.  the price would increase up to 6GB, at which point the cost would cap at the same as my current 512Kbps
<mpt> Sunday 1200 UTC
<mpt> hmm, what's that
<mpt> That's midnight on Monday morning, woohoo
<jsg> hehe
<Burgundavia> 4am here
<abelli> where can i find little and explicative description of boot up services?
<abelli> i need them for something like an Ubuntu Boot Manager
<jsg> 1200 UTC is a nice 8PM in my side
<Burgundavia> abelli, Ubuntu boot manager?
<abelli> (not mine, a friend of mine did it, and i think he did a nice thing) ...
<Burgundavia> abelli, doesn't gnome already have something like this?
<abelli> Burgundavia: maybe for sessions
<abelli> not services ... afaik.
<Burgundavia> abelli, ah, there is a grub editor, that is what I was thinking about
<abelli> ahh oik
<abelli> Burgundavia: any idea?
<Burgundavia> abelli, hmm, scripts in rc.d?
<abelli> yes, i need something that explain what the services that those script bring up&&down are.
<Burgundavia> abelli, should be pretty easy. Which do you have a question about?
<abelli> everyone, isnt there something already done?
<abelli> well i think i can write them myself, but i was looking for something already done ...
<capsula> Burgundavia: any idea?
<jsg> ok its time to play WOW...brb
<Burgundavia> abelli, not really
<abelli> Burgundavia: thank you anyway.
<abelli> Kinnison: can you tail -15 and help me?
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, what does you name mean?
<jsgotangco> my nick?
<jsgotangco> that is my name
<Burgundavia> ok
<jsgotangco> gotangco is my surname which is my chinese name
<Burgundavia> ah
<jsgotangco> i used to have other nicks but since i went to freenode ive just used my name
<Burgundavia> hmm
<abelli> jsgotangco: yes
<jsgotangco> oohh google video upload program
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, if it is CC then you can upload to WP as well
<abelli> jsgotangco: where do you live?
<jsgotangco> abelli i live in Manila, Philippines
<jsgotangco> but i was born in Taiwan
<abelli> taiwan? the home of electronics ahh
<jsgotangco> yes sir..home of good and bad electronics heh
<abelli> electronics in general :)
<abelli> is mainly a sw problem :)
<mpt> oh, man
<jsgotangco> true
<jsgotangco> but you know
<abelli> mpt: what?
* mpt comes across https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=106312 by mistake
<mpt> the memories, the memories
<jsgotangco> i can buy stuff in taiwan like a cisco router clone
<jsgotangco> same thing, different price
<daven> just about to edit the RootSudo page to note that users are asked for THEIR password, not the root one they don't have.  any objections?
<daven> is it ok just to go ahead and modify pages like that?  it feels awkward because someone else might be maintaining them!
<abelli> jsgotangco: i love you
<jsgotangco> daven if thepage is quite old feel free to edit it
<jsgotangco> abelli doh save it for someone else
<daven> edited 5 days ago
<abelli> daven: no you should do it, i think.
<daven> i've seen the question a few times on the channel - of course, putting it in the wiki might not help that ;)
<abelli> jsgotangco: can we have a little exchange?
<abelli> you come in italy i come in taiwan
<abelli> daven: it's worth trying.
<daven> abelli: hehe - you not interested in coming to the uk? ;)
<jsgotangco> abelli i'd love to go to italy my aunt lives in rome she's a nun
<abelli> itll be also nice noting that sudo something & does bring sudo in background .. so it won't be executed if the password hasnt been inserted in the last 5 mins.
<abelli> daven: huh ... ive been there for every summer of my life since 3 yrs ago.
<daven> abelli: fair enough :)  i must admit i've not been to italy yet
<abelli> jsgotangco: come when you want ... but im a bit North
<abelli> daven: england where?
<daven> southampton
<abelli> if it's near Staines ... ahhh
<daven> lol - not a million miles from staines
* mpt tries to think of a way to avoid repeating "If you've been using" four times
<jsgotangco> the 1st and last time i went to Italy I was 7 years old and went to the vatican
<abelli> ahh ok, ok i just wanna kiss Ali G
<daven> abelli: aye - dat is wicked, no?
<abelli> mpt: mm where and when?
<abelli> daven: i iz complitely mad for alig and da west side massive.
<daven> also, i'm going to remove the "If you wish to do blah..." and replace with "To do blah..."
<daven> just checking that i won't get anyone annoyed
<mpt> abelli: For a "If you're new to Ubuntu 5.10" section of the help
<jsgotangco> daven fair enough we can see changes in the wiki anyway *the immediate ones though*
<mpt> abelli: "If you've been using Ubuntu 5.04", "If you've been using Ubuntu 4.10", "If you've been using Microsoft Windows", "If you've been using Mac OS X"
<abelli> about microsoft "if you have been wrong till now"
<abelli> mmm sorry ... pappa time .. read you later
<abelli> ciao buona vita.
<mpt> Avoiding the word "using" would be a bonus
<daven> does "Page Type" default to what it was before?
<jsgotangco> ciao
<jsgotangco> just make sure its Moin
<daven> yes, it is.
<daven> you could say "Migrating from Ubuntu 5.04"?
<daven> migrating is a more complicated word, though
<jsgotangco> whats the complete sentence btw
<mpt> Those are the complete headings
<mpt> These are links to be clicked on
<daven> i think i would go for migrating
<daven> if that's the kind of thing you mean
<mpt> in the topic "If you're new to Ubuntu 5.10"
<mpt> Yes, but for Aunt Tillie, migrating is what birds do
<daven> hmmm. maybe not so good then.
<mpt> It's got exactly the right meaning, it's just at the wrong level
<daven> yes
<daven> i don't see the problem with saying "If you've been using", really
<jsgotangco> me either
<daven> it's better to be consistent
<jsgotangco> its as simple as you can get imo
<mpt> yeah
<daven> or "Moving from"
<mpt> heh!
<mpt> I'd just tried "Moving from"
<mpt> to see how it looked
<daven> :)
<mpt> Great minds think alike
<daven> it's funny how long these things take - i can spend ages thinking about what words to use in a guide ;)
<jsgotangco> daven its much worse when doing i18n
<daven> yes, some of the guides i write get sent for translation :-s
<Burgundavia> that is why using simpler words is better
<Burgundavia> easy to understand and translate
<Burgundavia> migrate vs move, etc.
<mpt> "If you've been using" has the advantage over "Moving from" that it still works even if you're *still* using the other OS
<daven> yes
<daven> moving still isn't quite right
<Burgundavia> "f you have come from"
<daven> i come from england
<daven> which section would i read? 
<daven> ;)
<Burgundavia> used to <-- don't much like that
<mpt> mmmm
* mpt worries about "Accessing the Internet"
<mpt> Some people think e-mail isn't on the Internet
<mpt> and neither is IM
<jsgotangco> whats wrong about that
<jsgotangco> hmmm
<daven> it's tricky, picking the right level.
<Burgundavia> some people think that the internet is that blue icon
<jsgotangco> FF?
<daven> how long does the sudo password persist for?
<Burgundavia> daven, 15minutes by default
<mpt> jsgotangco: No, the one without any orange in it :-)
<Burgundavia> daven, before its asks again
<daven> burgundavia: i'm not sure whether it's worth mentioning
<Burgundavia> just for the record, gwget is a nice app
<Burgundavia> daven, it is, in case they wonder why it didn't ask again
<daven> burgundavia: i'll try and work it in
<daven> burgundavia: but i didn't understand the bit about "bring sudo", and i couldn't find much in google, so i'll leave that stuff out ;)
<Burgundavia> http://gnome.org/projects/gwget/download.html <-- can someone else try and download fireget.xpi
<jsgotangco> mpt would it be more effective if we become more specific, ie, accessing net, using email, using im, etc.
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, I would agree with that
<daven> burgundavia: funny characters
<daven> burgundavia: i guess it's not sending the headers properly or something
<Burgundavia> daven, is borked then
<Burgundavia> daven, dammit, I wants it
<daven> hehe
<daven> "You will be prompted for the current user's password.  By default, you can use sudo for 15 minutes before you're prompted for the password again."
<daven> any suggestions before i make my first change
<mpt> jsgotangco: All except the first are subcategories of "Accessing the Internet" -- I've put them in one category so as to make room for "Changing the desktop picture and other settings" and "Getting more help" on the help front page
<Burgundavia>  By default, you can use sudo stores your password for 15 minutes. After that time, you will be prompted for the password again.
<Burgundavia> daven, ^
<daven> good plan
<Burgundavia> change the password to your password
<daven> :)
<Burgundavia> always put the doc as mentioning the user
<daven> "
<daven> You will be prompted for the current user's password.  By default, sudo stores your password for 15 minutes before prompting you (for your password?) again."
<daven> i'm inclined to go for less words i think
<Burgundavia> You will be prompted for your password
<Burgundavia> better
<daven> sounds good
<daven> You will be prompted for the current user's password.  By default, sudo stores your password for 15 minutes before you will be prompted for your password again.
<Burgundavia> You will be prompted for your password, which will be stored for 15 minutes. After that time, you will need to enter your password again.
<daven> hehe
<mpt> Ok, does anyone here actually have permissions to hack the Ubuntu help front page?
<Burgundavia> mpt, it is in svn
<mpt> (the one that appears in Yelp, I mean)
<abelli> what about "if you come from..."
<daven> burgundavia: i'll go with your version :)
<Burgundavia> mpt, anybody with commit access can
<mpt> Burgundavia: I'm not sure that really answers my question
<mpt> Burgundavia: do you?
<Burgundavia> mpt, What that means is that I could, until I lost my secret key
<mpt> aha
<mpt> as in, your GPG key?
* Burgundavia grumbles about reinstalling and stupidity
<mpt> yyyyyyeah, I should back up my key too
<Burgundavia> luckily, I hadn't had it signed by anyone yet
<jsgotangco> i can commit but....
<Burgundavia> be bold jsgotangco 
<mpt> well, I was just thinking
<mpt> A simple and silly improvement
<mpt> would be to change that big heading that says "Help Topics" to "Ubuntu Help"
<jsgotangco> well i think that's a standard GNOME help thing but can be changed
<Burgundavia> works for me
<daven> write - i'm off to the shops.  thanks for the help - i really don't want to tread on anyone's toes! :)
<abelli> daven: big ups
<abelli> daven: aiiiiiiii
<daven> abelli: is you da fox? ;) [over and out] 
<abelli> jsgotangco: ok, so will u buy me an ultrasparcII 600 mhz for me ? :)
<jsgotangco> what can a sparc 600mhz do for you i have no idea how those work anyway
<abelli> daven: me and me julie is going to make you fil mazzively bad.
<abelli> jsgotangco: i mean in taiwan :)
<jsgotangco> well i am going to dinner first bbl
<jsgotangco> abelli when i go there in august
<abelli> jsgotangco: buon appetito :)
<mpt> Does Ubuntu have any fax software installed by default?
<Burgundavia> sane seems to be able to be a front end to one
<Burgundavia> so no
<Burgundavia> though ask on the devel list
<Burgundavia> and if not, file a bug about it
<mpt> ISTR a thread on ubuntu-devel about it recently
<mpt> Like, maybe a week ago
<Burgundavia> gwget needs a resume button
<mpt> Silly English putting its verbs before its objects
<mpt> So much harder to scan links that way
<Burgundavia> check out efax
<Burgundavia> most especially the help func
<mpt> https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/LocalHelpOutline updated
<Burgundavia> mpt, advanced topics? that is a weasel word
<mpt> I know
<Burgundavia> what is going to be behind it/
<mpt> see the bottom of the page
<Burgundavia> hmm, how about server setup
<Burgundavia> those who know about man pages can find them themselves
<Burgundavia> or info
<Burgundavia> gnutella needs a better search
<mpt> They may be able to find them themselves, but that doesn't necessarily mean they don't prefer reading them in a proportional anti-aliased font :-)
<mpt> arg, it's late and I'm using too many negatives
<Burgundavia> I read man in a terminal
<Burgundavia> as I suspect do most
<Burgundavia> and users should never ever see a man page
<Burgundavia> I was about to help someone in #debian
<mpt> msdn.microsoft.com uses Verdana
* mpt shrugs
<Burgundavia> and then I though f**k it
<Burgundavia> Burgundavia is there a quick and easy guide to adding .desktop files to debian packages?
<Burgundavia> aardvark bah. smelly ubuntu users.
<Burgundavia> nice response, eh?
<Burgundavia> and then
<mpt> heh
<Burgundavia> _rene_ Burgundavia: man cp? ;)
<Burgundavia> _rene_ Burgundavia: get the sources, add it, rebuild
<Burgundavia> and
<mpt> haha
<Burgundavia> jethro Burgundavia: I asked mh, not you, but you can read the package maintainer guide
<Burgundavia> hmm
<Burgundavia> ahh
<Burgundavia> this is a change that should be so easy
<Burgundavia> I know I am missing one little step
<Burgundavia> but I get that response
<Burgundavia> no wonder people use Ubuntu
<Burgundavia> because most of the time, people get there questions answered
<Burgundavia> and not derided
<mpt> Jealousy will get them nowhere
<mpt> Those aren't nearly the only Advanced topics, btw
<mpt> there should be a "..." there
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> I agree with the gnome move to get rid of advanced topics
<mpt> Gnome has Advanced topics?
<mpt> I didn't know
<Burgundavia> meaning tabs or options under the label advanced topics
<mpt> Oh, for sure
<Burgundavia> hmm
<Burgundavia> well #debian was a bust
<mpt> in a GUI, it's often a copout
<Burgundavia> guess I will try #ubuntu-motu next
<mpt> I don't think it's a copout here
<Burgundavia> nah, i think I will get help at #ubuntu-motu
<mpt> It's the "here be admins and geeks" dept.
<mpt> anyway, Gaim for Windows has nearly finished downloading and it's my bedtime
<Burgundavia> alright, cya
<abelli> mpt: for windows?
<mpt> night
<abelli> hmmmmm
<mpt> Yes, abelli
<abelli> do you have that virus?
<mpt> <mpt> Ah, the joys of Win98
<mpt> What virus?
<abelli> im really sorry for you my friend.
<mpt> Virus writers don't support Win98 any more
<abelli> ms windows 98
<mpt> It's tragic
<Burgundavia> lol
<abelli> no no the virus' name is MS Windows 98
<mpt> We miss out on all the excitement
<abelli> and it think its one of the few viruses that you must pay for
<mpt> So, abelli, my parents are in a very curious situation where they pay for their virus but they get their antivirus definitions for free
<abelli> mpt: why your parents have that virus?
<abelli> i lately heard of something called ubuntu ...
<abelli> dunno really what it is .. but .
<abelli> i think its a nice thing.
<mpt> abelli
<mpt> dude
<abelli> Burgundavia: heard anything ?
<Burgundavia> abelli, regarding?
<mpt> My mother complains if I so much as move an icon from one side of the screen to the other
<abelli> that new thing called ubuntu.
<Burgundavia> mpt, I have a father like that
<Burgundavia> he spent an entire afternoon changing all the settings on an old machine
<abelli> marthin luther king once said "ppl, dont conform, evolute, change"
<Burgundavia> when all I had done was change the screen resolution to one size larger
<mpt> evolute?
<mpt> criminy
<abelli> its an itanglish for evolve ... sorry
<mpt> heh, English is a silly language
<abelli> nature is quantistic ... IT too.
<abelli> so we must proceed by steps.
* mpt evolutes quantistically?
<abelli> now win98, tomorrow morning ubuntu hoary 5.04
<mpt> right, really sleep time
<mpt> honey
<abelli> sweet dreams
<mpt> mark should have called it Ubuntu Honey
<jsgotangco> froud u there?
<froud> yes
<jsgotangco> i am looking at our wiki pages at the moment (all of 'em)
<jsgotangco> what happened to the old members?
<Burgundavia> some of them disappeared
<froud> people come and go
<froud> some talked lots and did nothing
<froud> some said nothing and did nothing
<jsgotangco> lol
<froud> some made promises and did noting
<jsgotangco> that bad huh
<froud> yes
* jsgotangco never really looked at Warty documentation
<froud> some just came did on ethng to get their name in the authors list and were never seen again
* froud really things we should tighten the author listing policy
<jsgotangco> to be honest about this i really dont find any logical system here
<froud> true
<jsgotangco> (just looking at the wiki entries)
<Burgundavia> froud, unfortunately, we can't due to license requirements
<Burgundavia> if they edited it, we must list them
<jsgotangco> the dual license thing?
<Burgundavia> but we can list them as historical thanks
<Burgundavia> both licenses require it
<froud> sure
<Burgundavia> though it is debatable if minor edits count for copyright and thus for attribution
<froud> my thinking exactly
<froud> anyone seen a free open source survey poll app around?
<jsgotangco> im not so good at writing this kind of stuff, i was more trained into writing ISO compliant docs so I really dont know if i can finish up one thing that conforms as a help page
<Burgundavia> froud, web-based?
<froud> Burgundavia: ideally
<Burgundavia> getting the new suse 9.3 live-dvd
<Burgundavia> froud, can't be taht hard to do
<Burgundavia> just forms and an email sending
<abelli> froud: idealism?
<froud> can be
<froud> wonder about this
<froud> http://prestopoll.sourceforge.net/
<jsgotangco> hmm
<abelli> froud: it's not python .
<abelli> you're an heretic ... you're under trial by the Inquisizione
<Burgundavia> icky
<froud> whaaaaah hhhaaaah ah ha ha ha ah sob sob
<Burgundavia> php and php5
<Burgundavia> http://software.xkopex.com/gnome/gnome3.html
<Burgundavia> I imagine this will go around the blogs for awhile
<froud> he he
<jsgotangco> tiled folders
<jsgotangco> icckk
<Burgundavia> http://www.student.livjm.ac.uk/cmsphend/gnome/scoop.html
<Burgundavia> how about this?
<Burgundavia> http://software.xkopex.com/nautilus/
<Burgundavia> or that
<Burgundavia> he has some good ideas
<jsgotangco> i like that drop off zone
<Burgundavia> the scoop idea?
<Burgundavia> I like that as well
<Burgundavia> a sort of meta-side panel
<jsgotangco> yes scoop does look it might work
<jsgotangco> but it'll eat real estate space for some low rez users
<Burgundavia> by the time that is more than vapourware, the average desktop will be 1280x1024
<jsgotangco> thats true although ive tried hoary/kubuntu on a new PC with a prescott mobo and shared intel extreme video and it can only do 640x480 as default
<Burgundavia> horrible
<Burgundavia> my lcd is native at 1280
<jsgotangco> i dont think his nautilus idea will be so hot, it looks intimidating to some
<Burgundavia> I can't stand anything smaller
<Burgundavia> like a lot of UI ideas, they are total absolute crack
<jsgotangco> why is it they are making a big deal on the bitkeeper issue
<jsgotangco> jeez
<Burgundavia> the bitkeeper is big
<Burgundavia> <rant>linus was stupid to use it in the 1st place, and he was stupid to try and support mcvoy over tridge</rant>
<jsgotangco> he was being practical (i believe)
<jsgotangco> no make that productive
<Burgundavia> the issue, is that no FLOSS app got the same amout of development
<Burgundavia> at least with OSS there would be something to show for it
<Burgundavia> now he is even worse than before
<Burgundavia> worse shape
<jsgotangco> true
<Burgundavia> I think this whole lesson has been very good for the FLOSS community
<Burgundavia> it truly shows why never to depend on an non-free piece of software
<jsgotangco> 'Minority Report' interface created for US military
<jsgotangco> tee hee
<jsgotangco> later sleep time
<jsgotangco> nite
<Burgundavia> I wrote an mpt style doc for suse 9.3. Now I jsut need a webblog to put it on
<froud> copy cat
<Burgundavia> somebodies got to do it
<Burgundavia> already critiqued linspire 5.0 live
<froud> So you are becoming a critique these days
<Burgundavia> hey!
<froud> somebody has to do it
<froud> may as well be you
<Burgundavia> are you saying I do it well and don't produce much else?
<froud> :-) if the hat fits ..
<froud> teasing you, you plonker
<froud> you know I love you
<Burgundavia> i know
<froud> ok you have a svn wc
<Burgundavia> I currently have no commit access
* jeffsch is back (gone 08:22:14)
<jeffsch> https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/LearningUbuntuOutline
<froud> by you have a wc
<froud> hi jeff
<jeffsch> morning
<Burgundavia> wc?
<froud> working copy
<froud> if you do svn up and see the stuff in teamstuff/
<Burgundavia> ok
<froud> jeffsch: you too mate
<froud> mdke: ping
<froud> daven: ping
<froud> guys svn up and checkout the stuff in teamstuff/
<froud> based on my templates I have prepared some of the stuff we discussed earlier today
<Burgundavia> arghh, no commit access. I am going to commit myself!!!
<froud> patches dude, patches
<jeffsch> i like the content spec and info plan
<froud> there is an order to the docs
<froud> 1. audience
<froud> 2. environment
<froud> 3. ino plan
<froud> info
<froud> 4. spec
<froud> each doc gets a spec
<froud> info plan covers all 
<froud> data from 1, 2 used to produce 3, 4
<Burgundavia> cool
<froud> sometimes 3 can be done first
<froud> and reval after 1, 2
<froud> So now I need input.
<Burgundavia> hmm
<Burgundavia> ok
<froud> silence will be considered as consent
<Burgundavia> I will sick it on my parents, ex, and brother
<Burgundavia> I like the idea
<froud> good
<Burgundavia> I think the questions need tweaking
<jeffsch> in our case, how to get enough responses to audience and enviro surveys to make the data valid?
<froud> you will find that I dont just talk I actually do
<Burgundavia> advertise on the ubuntu website
<froud> email, web forms, or poll
<froud> jeffsch: you know any good poll apps
<jeffsch> hmmm... i used to. I had to build a survey app a while ago and did some research into it
<Burgundavia> http://www.unt.edu/benchmarks/archives/2004/december04/rss.htm
<Burgundavia> google gives you wonders
<Burgundavia> qsurvery
<Burgundavia> even links into zope
<jeffsch> http://gathering.itm.mh.se/modsurvey/overview.php
<froud> and where to get a server running zope
<Burgundavia> froud, we already have one
<froud> we do
<Burgundavia> www.ubuntu.com
<froud> Hmmm, yeah you are right
<Burgundavia> there is no reason that this couldn't be left up permanently
<Burgundavia> and just announce it after each release
<froud> sure
<froud> now where can I find an interface on that server do do this
<Burgundavia> need to talk a dev into uploading it
<froud> Hmmm yeah
<froud> file format?
<Burgundavia> for?
<froud> QSurvey
<froud> I dont have any multiple shoice questions
<froud> only text box responses
<froud> and no forks and pipes
<Burgundavia> it has textbox
<froud> yeah but does somebody have to sit there an create each question. Is there a single file format
<froud> a dtd, xsd
<jeffsch> Survey v3.0.0 DTD
<froud> link
<jeffsch> http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=Survey+v3.0.0+DTD&btnG=Google+Search&meta=
<jeffsch> that's all i got for now...
<froud> does it work undr zope?
<froud> this seems like apache mod
<froud> Hmmm.
<froud> that is cool
<froud> both the zope path and the mod path can work
<froud> I wonder which is faster?
<jeffsch> http://vtsurvey.sourceforge.net/
<jeffsch> also understand Servey DTD, but is java
<froud> Survey XML is an XML DTD where is the java
<froud> oooh java i c nice
<froud> yummy
<froud> Oh I can live with this
<froud> <SURVEY TITLE="TEXT">
<froud>   <TEXT NAME="te1" CAPTION="Plain text" />
<froud>   <TEXT NAME="te2" MAXLEN="2" CAPTION="Numerical text" MUSTANSWER="yes" NUMERICAL="yes" MAXVAL="99" MINVAL="0" ILLEGALVAL="-2" />
<froud> </SURVEY>
<froud> we can hack it in XML against the DTD is SVN
<froud> wehn we are ready then we can bother people
<froud> easy syntax http://gathering.itm.mh.se/mod_survey/docs/mod_survey_syntax_reference.pdf
* froud wget http://gathering.itm.mh.se/modsurvey/download/release/modsurvey-3.2.2.tar.gz
<jeffsch> ok see you guys later. I must go.
<froud> nice mod survey docs are docbook
<froud> pity the programmers guide is empty an dthe sysadmin
<Burgundavia> when where the latest updates of these various things?
<Burgundavia> qsurvey, it looks like 2 years
<froud> 3.2.2 (released 2005-01-19).
<Burgundavia> for mod?
<froud> mod survey
<froud> yes
<froud> apache module
<Burgundavia> seems more stable and reliable
<froud> driven from xml file
<froud> also easy for us to develop on
<froud> easy deploy
<froud> just need apache
<froud> USE="apache2" ACCEPT_KEYWORDS="~x86" emerge mod_survey
<froud> found a web based editor for it too
<froud> http://ilse.eveca.de/screenShots.html
<froud> Burgundavia: my surveys are normally completed by me. I ahve modified the ones in svn but I wonder if users will actually take the time to type a para on a question
<froud> I think we should try use as many mulitiple choice options as possible
<froud> 'ello abelli 
<abelli> froud: glad to see youre here.
<froud> Burgundavia: mod survey has a nice dtd
<Burgundavia> always makes life easy if it fits in with existing sutf
<froud> yeah I am installing on my local and will test it. It is not all documented, so perhaps I can contribute back in that way
<froud> Burgundavia: on the subject of polls, which OS are you?
<froud> http://bbspot.com/News/2003/01/os_quiz.php
<Burgundavia> depends on state and mood
<Burgundavia> let me tell you know
<Burgundavia> now
<Burgundavia> os/2 warp
<froud> Burgundavia: you running Apache 2 on SuSE 9.2
<Burgundavia> I have never run suse
<froud> OK
<Burgundavia> and only played with apache
<froud> I just wiped out my mod_status
<froud> lemme see if I can retrieve it form the rpm
<froud> ah suse you got alove it
<daven> apparently I'm Amiga OS...
<Burgundavia> froud, what are you?
<froud> Debs
<daven> froud: gah! you rigged your answers ;)
<daven> froud: how come i ended up as amiga os!
<daven> i haven't downloaded the information as yet.  i'm currently a long way from even understand where to get svn from.  i'll have to look into it another day, because i'm off to bed now.  however, the "4-step plan" sounds like it would make for clearly defined docs
<froud> perhaps tomorrow I will help you with svn
<daven> actually, i expect the answers to most of my questions will be in the "getting started with the documentation" guide :)
<froud> yep
<froud> and Sep by Step Guides
<daven> yup :) i really do need to have a good read.  i'm just being careful not to commit myself to this before i know i can, if you see what i mean.  i don't like to say i'm going to help with something and then not do it.
<daven> right.  ttfn.
<froud> sure
<froud> I am of to bed too. Burgundavia the mod_survey is great.
<froud> c ya
<Burgundavia> cool
<Burgundavia> have to play myself
<mdke> what's going down
#ubuntu-doc 2005-04-28
<_troy> Hi
<_troy> Was interested in helping out with the Ubuntu Doc Team.  I will send an email to the list, thanks
<Burgundavia> salut
<_troy> Greetings
<Burgundavia> did you send a message to the list?
<jsgotangco> greetings
<Burgundavia> salut
<jsgotangco> arrgghh
<jsgotangco> bbl
<froud> African Greetings
<Burgundavia> salut
<froud> Have you slept?
<Burgundavia> since we last talked, yes?
<froud> oh good
<froud> He he we're finally fighting the war on bandwidth caps in South Africa
<froud> http://www.itweb.co.za/sections/feedback/feedcopy.asp?CommentID=4260
<froud> morn mpt 
<jsgotangco> hello
<mpt> hi froud
<froud> jsgotangco: morn
<jsgotangco> mpt, froud hello
<jsgotangco> froud, the teamstuff in svn, this what we're going to base our next work?
<froud> yes, it is aimed at collecting some knowledge from users so we can make informed decisions
<froud> jsgotangco: if you have questions and thoughts please do share them
<jsgotangco> im looking at the stuff at the moment
<jsgotangco> ok im just going to church ill be back in 2 hours for the meeting
<jsgotangco> bbl
<froud> say hello to god for me. God bless
<jsgotangco> haha
<Burgundavia> ah crap, meeting. Forgot about that
<Burgundavia> means I have to stay up
<froud> why do you think I asked if you had slept :-)
<Burgundavia> can sleep afterwords
<Burgundavia> salut mpt 
<mpt> bonsoir
<mdke> yoyoyo
<mpt> Anyone here know Icelandic?
<Burgundavia> no, but if you humm a few bars I can fake it
<mdke> nope
<mdke> how come?
<mpt> Burgundavia: Ok, here goes
* mpt clears his throat
<mpt> "Nicholas Bourbaki er dulnefni hps strfringa, sem flestir eru franskir ..."
* mdke takes cover
<mdke> tried google?
<mdke> oh it doesn't do icelandic
<Burgundavia> no online will do icelandic
<mdke> rubbish
<mdke> i guess there's no demand :/
<mpt> yeah
<mdke> there must be some
<mdke> aha!
<mdke> Nicholas Bourbaki is dulnefni hps mathematician , whom flestir are franskir
<mdke> ;)
<mpt> oh well done
<mdke> thanks
<mdke> maybe its some kind of icelandic dialect
<Burgundavia> nha, more likely a crappy tranlator
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> lemme try putting it in my tardis
* Kinnison tickles Burgundavia 
<mpt> It's from an Icelandic Wikipedia article, so I would hope it's standard Icelandic
<Burgundavia> Kinnison, did you get my mail?
<Burgundavia> mpt, does this guy have an english interwiki?
<Kinnison> Burgundavia: yes, cheeky git
<Burgundavia> Kinnison, I had fun writing that
* Kinnison is just pleased he was the first to hit that mail this morning
<Kinnison> any of the other people on help@ might take offence
* Burgundavia is mock surprised "Nobody would every take offence to me!"
<mpt> Burgundavia: ah, I found the English article, but it's under a different spelling
<mpt> So it's not inter-ed
<mpt> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolas_Bourbaki
<mpt> http://is.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicholas_Bourbaki
<Burgundavia> they point at each other, so I assume they are the same article subject
<mdke> are we doing the meeting here or in the other chan
<mpt> There's another channel?
<mdke> ubuntu-meeting
<mpt> ooo
<mdke> ciao enrico 
<enrico> ciao!
<Burgundavia> salut enrico 
<mpt> That was short and sweet
<mdke> :)
<froud> dudes time
<froud> Burgundavia: where that time zone web site you sent me
<froud> forgot to bookmark
<mdke> lol
<Burgundavia> www.time.gov
<Burgundavia> click on utc button
<Burgundavia> it is 11 utc
<Burgundavia> I forgot about dst
<Burgundavia> i am no -9
<Burgundavia> now
<froud> Burgundavia: no the other one
<mdke> http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/ ?
<mpt> froud, just btw, I'm sure that somewhere in the world there are Mathews with only one T, but I have never, ever, met one
<mdke> heh
<mdke> only the sucky ones
<froud> http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/meetingtime.html?month=4&day=17&year=2005&p1=0&p2=111&p3=-1&p4=-1
<froud> so the meeting is at Sunday, April 17, 2005 at 12:00:00	Sun 2:00 PM
<mdke> yes
<froud> aaaaah not good
<froud> gotta go to lunch with family at around that time
<mdke> bugger
<froud> well in th einterim you guys can read my mesage to the list. should take about an hour
<froud> mpt: did I spell your name wrong. I do appologize
<mpt> froud: I read your message
<mpt> froud: and after reading the last bit, I think you should read http://www.userland.com/whatIsStopEnergy
<mpt> Personally, I don't think an analysis based on voluntary writeups is going to be useful, for the reasons I gave yesterday
<mpt> but if you want to do it, please, go ahead and do it :-)
<froud> mpt: but you don't give a better solution either
<mpt> froud: Personally I think guessing would produce better results
<mpt> And that's not a knock against anyone
<mpt> But the only better solution, creeping up behind people and watching them, is expensive, and there's no way around that.
<mpt> I worked in cybercafes for four years, which was a cheap way of avoiding setting up my own usability lab
<froud> mpt: please voice your feelings in the list and suggest alternatives
<mpt> froud, I've already told you, more than once, I don't have alternatives, other than guessing.
<froud> mpt: I realize that my solution is not perfect and I expect it to be. What I am looking for is alternative solutions
<froud> mpt: then say so on list and leave it at that. Please I am a positive energy person. I do things to keep moving and fully expect  that people with something valuable to say will improve on my ideas.
<froud> mpt: if your effort in this is only to slam everything everyone says then I dont think it will be very helpful. I do believe that your input can be valuable if you approach it will suggestions taking into consideration our environment 
<mpt> froud: That's why I'm not going to complain on-list, because you said if anyone did that you'd stop, and I don't want you to stop
<froud> mpt: we work within the limitations we have
<froud> mpt: NO I DID NOT
<froud> I said if I get only one response
<froud> negative I will take it as a no
<froud> please read in context
<mpt> hmm, maybe I misread
<mpt> 'If I get back one negative response, I will be "stop."'
<mpt> ahhh, I get it now
<froud> Please note that I will take silence to equal consent and will make my 
<froud> decisions to move ahead or not based on the input and support within our 
<froud> team. So if I get back one positive response, I will be "go." If I get back 
<froud> one negative response, I will be "stop."
<mpt> it's positive - negative, rather than negative > 0
<mpt> ok, sorry
<jsgotangco> hola
<froud> mpt: as I said it is easy to sit on the side and slam people. Not so easy to resolve problems
<jsgotangco> figthing again?
<froud> RFC: What is Stop Energy?
<froud> Posted by Dave Winer, 4/25/02 at 10:11:08 AM.
<mdke> jsgotangco, yes
<froud> mpt: your posted link
<froud> He nmakes a goo dpoint
<jsgotangco> go to #war
<froud> I've been suckered into debates with Stop Energy proponents too many times, these days I don't propose open protocols or formats unless there is a clear advantage to being open; because I want to move and I'm tired of pointless debates.
<froud> Hence I have put stop go into my message
<froud> I too what to move in positive direction. Not go in square circles
<froud> mpt: my approach to community development is to give proposals that may be solutions to problems providing the community supports them
<froud> mpt: I dont spend my time typing message just for the fun of it all the time
<mpt> froud: I did what you asked yesterday -- https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/LocalHelp is now a child of https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocteamProjects
<froud> mpt: thanks for that it is valuable inout
<froud> input
<jsgotangco> crud
<froud> chaps I have a png to show you. It is based on a system I developed for one of my customers
<froud> http://www.inwords.co.za/helpsys.png
<froud> It pertains to a help system under a browser
<Burgundavia> hmm
<Burgundavia> seems like every other help browser out there, which can be a good and bad thing
<Burgundavia> I like the inclusion of search though
<jsgotangco> sounds good
<froud> Burgundavia: it goes on the basis that users are accustome dto the win help system
<Burgundavia> froud, that is based on win, no?
<Burgundavia> yes
<mdke> where's the dog?
<froud> we tried not to make it too different so as to promote easy of use
<mdke> help systems must have a dog or at the very least a paperclip
<froud> Burgundavia: its html
* Burgundavia kills mdke
<mdke> heh
<froud> but the user requirements were from windows users
<jsgotangco> hmmm this is heavy on html and javascript no?
* Burgundavia buries the body with the dog and paperclip
<mpt> Looks fairly similar to http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/
<Burgundavia> Ideally , i would like to see something like beagle
<froud> Well for HTML not reall
<froud> y
<froud> a few java scripts
<froud> and css
<Burgundavia> where the main page would be common howtos
<jsgotangco> it looks like msdn/technet
<Burgundavia> with a big search button
<froud> as I said it is based on a windows user profile, but I believe it demonstrates what can be done
<jsgotangco> thats a good idea, a lot of people are familiar with that interface
<trickie> froud, what does the custom notes do?
<froud> trickie: users can add notes inline to the pages
<trickie> froud, is that where a user can track of their own additions
<trickie> froud, that is nice
<froud> trickie: custom notes is a listing of them
<froud> yes
<froud> they can also send notes in xml format to the customer
<trickie> I was thinking about doing something similar for sorta like an Ubuntu Dictionary
<froud> in this case an ERP vendor
<jsgotangco> hmmm
<trickie> and people could make their own and even submit them
<jsgotangco> i knew it
<jsgotangco> that's why its so familiar
<jsgotangco> it looks like the help of oracle ebsse
<froud> jsgotangco: maybe I am not saying
<froud> trickie: in the system admins sometimes put help central
<trickie> froud, that looks really nice
<froud> trickie: so notes are also shared to other users
<trickie> froud, yeah... so the doc can grow organically
<froud> yes and feeback on docs in inline
<trickie> more of what we need i reckon as a opposed to a system of showing seperate 'user manuals'
<froud> we have visability into what users note to themselves
<mpt> It's 1200 UTC
<trickie> yes... #ubuntu-meeting?
<jsgotangco> would it be possible to "push" new stuff in this interface
<froud> oh yes it is
<froud> jsgotangco: yes it is
<froud> and it is user profiled
<froud> the syste admins see other topics
<jsgotangco> cookies?
<froud> yes
<froud> ok meeting
<froud> So its a daemon
<Burgundavia> Burgundavia hey, take a look at this idea:
<Burgundavia> Burgundavia http://img107.echo.cx/my.php?image=help2ui6ja.png
<Burgundavia> froud Burgundavia: nice suggestion
<Burgundavia> Burgundavia by default, it woudl show common things
<Burgundavia> Burgundavia and when they searched, it would reorder itself
<Burgundavia> Burgundavia very simple ui
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco would beagle be part of breezy
<Burgundavia> Burgundavia jsgotangco, that is the plan
<Burgundavia> Burgundavia but this would be a standalone app
<Burgundavia> Burgundavia I just used beagle as a look example
<Burgundavia> froud Gnome only
<Burgundavia> froud is the backend desktop neutral
<Burgundavia> Burgundavia someone could right a qt frontend
<Burgundavia> Burgundavia it is daemon and frontend
<Burgundavia> * froud thinks we should take this back to channel until mary arrives
<Burgundavia> Burgundavia we might as well talk here
<Burgundavia> froud not sure everyone else not docteam is interested
<Burgundavia> froud and it would be better to capture it under our weblog etc
<Burgundavia> Burgundavia true
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco ok
<Burgundavia> Burgundavia am going to flood #ubuntu-doc with this talk
<Burgundavia> there, now the log has it
<Burgundavia> sorry ;)
<froud> thaks
<froud> so it is a daemon
<Burgundavia> beagle isn't really our answer
<froud> does it open the help content or only search it
<jsgotangco> well true
<Burgundavia> just a ui like it
<trickie> we could still use a similar indexer
<trickie> with python bindings
<mdke> ok lets go
<jsgotangco> instead of grouped boxes maybe consider doing it as a flowchart perhaps sort of a tutorial stage
<hypatia> meeting on?
<jsgotangco> sure
<hypatia> sorry I'm late -- just drove 5 hours :(\
<froud> Burgundavia: nice for our index page
<froud> hypatia: no worries
<froud> hypatia: you leading the meet
<jsgotangco> i forgot
<jsgotangco> froud god said hi
<jsgotangco> *grin*
<hypatia> head over to #ubuntu-meeting folks!
<froud> Oh cool god remembers me
<Burgundavia> daven, join us in #ubuntu-meeting
<jsgotangco> ok that wasnt so bad
<jsgotangco> im going to finish my laundry...tata for now
<daven> ttfn
#ubuntu-doc 2005-04-29
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, hi
<Burgundavia> salut
<froud> African Greetings
<Burgundavia> hello
<froud> did you sleep well
<Burgundavia> I did
<Burgundavia> my sleeping schedule is messed though
<froud> I can imagine
<Burgundavia> I am going to go to bed in a few hours, so that I can wake up at a normal time tomorrow
<froud> I added an instal guide to the generic last night
<Burgundavia> say that\
<froud> It's open for contributions
<froud> should cover both gubuntu and kubuntu
<jsgotangco> i noticed that
<jsgotangco> good call
<Burgundavia> elmo is on vacation for a week, so I will contact him after that to get my new key added
<froud> example of doc profiling if anyone is interested
<froud> Burgundavia: you can patch in the interim
<jsgotangco> sure
<froud> I aksed this question on kubuntu devel yesterday, got no answers, perhaps somebody here knows.
<froud> [20:01]  <froud> what is standard install footprint of Kubuntu after first boot, in MB
<froud> [20:02]  <froud> what is standard install footprint after first boot without kde (servermode), in MB
<froud> [20:02]  <froud> under qemu kubuntu install footprint with kde is 1024 MB. Is this the expected size of the footprint on fixed media?
<froud> Hmm people seem to want to become celebrities
<froud> everyone wants to blog
<jsgotangco> well
<jsgotangco> ive been blogging eversince
<jsgotangco> but blogging for ubuntu isnt a goal
<froud> and how does it help
<jsgotangco> honest
<jsgotangco> no idea
<jsgotangco> who reads the blogs anyway
<jsgotangco> except people you know
<froud> I dunno, perhaps if you are Larry Elison
<froud> or Bill gates
<jsgotangco> maybe we're overreacting
<jsgotangco> i dunno
<froud> to make a blog successful you need to be of a specific profile that is intersting to people
<jsgotangco> we only have simple problems imo
<froud> yeah
<froud> seems like everyone has replied with +1 but they dont think it will have much impact
<jsgotangco> i wanted to refute that because at least we have emprical data whatever the outcome
<froud> I think the impact will be improved by advertising and knocking on people
<froud> if we put up a survey and tell no one it is not good
<froud> we must try to get it into the linux user groups
<froud> and our channels
<froud> you will be surprised what happens
<froud> you remember the document I wrote on installing Kubuntu from GNOME
<jsgotangco> yeah
<froud> I put it on my web site. No link from any other pages
<froud> in one month 8GB of trafic to it
<jsgotangco> wow
<froud> and all I did was post to our list and drop the link into 3 irc channels
<jsgotangco> i still think having the survey and results will help only because we have solid data that we can present
<jsgotangco> instead of having gut feeling decisions
<froud> in april that page got 182 hits
<froud> in march 270
<froud> yes
<froud> based on a the stats from a simple install page, I think that we will get more hits than we know
<froud> If we get 400 hits it is a sample
<jsgotangco> froud, just go ahead with the survey, post a link in the list and the forums and it will just explode
<froud> well nobody has said no, they just feel it wont work
<froud> so I will go ahead
<jsgotangco> hmm right pardon my understanding of english
<froud> hope Mark or Mako responds
<froud> it would be good to get support at that level
<froud> I know mako will put it on ubuntu traffic
<jsgotangco> hmmm
<jsgotangco> i disagree on becoming a member only to be heard
<jsgotangco> doh
<froud> yeah I have a member page, but I am not really looking to become a celeb
<froud> what was intersting to me is how people picked up on the blog idea and changed subject
<froud> I have four responses about blogs and memberships and only three about the topic
<froud> one thing has been concerning me for awhile
<jsgotangco> enlighten me
<froud> it seems that people are not trully concerntrated on the documents and finding solutions
<froud> we have a small group of people who are active both in committing and idea formulating
<jsgotangco> good observation we look good in the lists though imo
<froud> well yes, but I wonder how to get others more active
<jsgotangco> froud, how about doing a gantt chart at least so we have targets and milestones, etc per document
<jsgotangco> and posting it on the wiki at least
<jsgotangco> like now, we're starting from nothing
<froud> yes that is an option, but it is hard to gantt without schedules
<jsgotangco> right that's what we need to know then right
<froud> my five phase model is kinda a rough milestone
<froud> jsgotangco: my real problem is that I am doing lots of pulling here
<froud> I would like to see more proactive people
<froud> people getting ideas
<jsgotangco> froud, i wish i can help more with this stuff but i am way over my head with regards to technical xml stuff i am catching up honestly
<froud> airing them in the group
<froud> and pushing them forward
<froud> jsgotangco: I understand that
<froud> my remarks are just general observations and feelings
<froud> they may be just my own and may be wrong
<froud> but speaking about it openly sometimes helps to confirm whether it is just me or a real problem
<jsgotangco> i think you're doing good i've joined here from zero and now know some stuff but not at the level of others
<froud> my problem is with the people who do know something
<froud> not only the xml
<jsgotangco> well ok that's a valid point
<froud> So far I have yet to see a person pickup a book and run with it
<froud> I would like to wake up one morn and find the user guide half complete
<froud> the admin guide looking good
<froud> the faq guide ported to hoary
<froud> I want to see a list of patches in th elist for aplication and that people have applied them, not just me
<jsgotangco> who leads this team anyway
<jsgotangco> ?
<froud> nobody leads
<froud> we are all equally empowered
<froud> perhaps that is part of the problem
<jsgotangco> perhaps that is why chaps like me are still not moving
<froud> the other problem I have is with our meeting yesterday
<froud> people sound enthusiastic
<froud> there is lots of talk
<froud> no action
<jsgotangco> we're good at that
<froud> there is also a disregard for the overhead in suggestions
<froud> people resort to manual solutions instead of thinking out the box
<froud> its natural
<froud> but I dont think wise
<jsgotangco> froud, just OT,  can <para> contain just text and stuff at the moment
<froud> our integration with the devels is not a monitor them thing
<froud> Model : (phrase|ulink|emphasis|keycap|guibutton|interface|quote|guimenuitem|guimenu|xref|application)*
<froud> These elements and text
<froud> I think if we use a monitor them approach with the devels that we remain an island
<froud> we need to be an integral part of development
<froud> docs should be seen as part of the product
<froud> at present this is not the mind set and we have to change that perception
<froud> its not easy, so we need touch points that are inline with their development process
<froud> well I guess I am now using the channel as my blog
<froud> I am concerned that the systems we put in place are hinging on single individuals
<jsgotangco> froud, would it be ok to copy stuff from gubuntu to kubuntu so i have an idea how the structure works
<froud> sure
<jsgotangco> comparing the tags seem to work for me for now
<froud> I dont think the systems we put in place should work this way, not in this environment
<froud> they should be open and accessible to anyone who cares
<froud> in my experience, people come and go from open projects
<jsgotangco> you mean the commit access thing and all?
<froud> in general
<froud> our systems must take this into consideration
<froud> lets say I leave
<froud> can people carry on
<jsgotangco> i truly doubt that
<froud> hey school run brb
<jsgotangco> ok
<jsgotangco> i got questions later
<froud> ok back
<Burgundavia> unfortunately, the current system has no backup if a documentor drops out
<Burgundavia> Ie, if I disappear
<Burgundavia> as an aside
<Burgundavia> I just say gnome-art just hit breezy
<Burgundavia> this allows people to browse art.gnome.art and download/install themes without going to the web
<froud> yes, and what is the people monitoring email lists drop out, the impact can be huge
<Kinnison> Good morning
<Burgundavia> salut Kinnison 
<Kinnison> hihi burgerboi
<jsgotangco> froud, how do i commit an image
<Burgundavia> put it in the dir
<Burgundavia> svn add image.png
<jsgotangco> svn commit -m nomsg kubuntu-final.png --non-interactive 
<jsgotangco> svn: Commit failed (details follow):
<jsgotangco> svn: '/home/jsg/DocProjects/ubuntu-docs/kde/images/C/kubuntu-final.png' is not under version control
<jsgotangco> error (1)
<Burgundavia> 'svn add kbuntu-final.png'
<Burgundavia> then commit up
<jsgotangco> ok thats it tnx
<jsgotangco> yelp sure does render stuff strangely
<Burgundavia> indeed
<Burgundavia> that is a wierd error
<Burgundavia> sometimes, I can simply run my mouse over an mp3 file and it will start playing
<Kinnison> Nautilus is previewing the audio file
<Kinnison> system | prefs | file manglement | preview
<Burgundavia> what??
<Burgundavia> ok then
<Burgundavia> Kinnison, hmm, not sure if I like that one
<Kinnison> s'been there for *ages*
<Burgundavia> it only happens sometimes
<Kinnison> turn it off if you don't like it
<Burgundavia> I just did
<Kinnison> It starts after a few seconds
<Kinnison> So what you're thinking of as intermittent behaviour is probably just inconsistency in your wait periods
<Burgundavia> cool feature, but not enough visual feeback
<Kinnison> yeah
<Kinnison> What I don't like is that it doesn't seem to work for oggs
<Burgundavia> there is a bug in b.g about that
<Burgundavia> that is why I guess I never saw it
<Burgundavia> I rip to ogg
* Kinnison nods
<Burgundavia> listening to www.thepartyparty.com
<Burgundavia> ff needs a new bookmark ui and idea
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, are you familiar with <imagedata>
<Burgundavia> not really
<Burgundavia> what do you want o know?
<jsgotangco> is it possible to have an alt property for an image in xml
<Burgundavia> like text if the image doesn
<Burgundavia> load?
<jsgotangco> or how to tag certain words to be boldface in yelp
<jsgotangco> yes something like that
<jsgotangco> it would be easier to use <title> but the front page displays an image
<jsgotangco> since the current title is an image, it becomes part of the navigation box below as well
<Burgundavia> no idea
<jsgotangco> hmm maybe a draft would work wonders for me
<froud-work> jsgotangco: you can have alt text but in our case the figure should show, otherwise I would say the thing is broken.
<jsgotangco> the image was ok i just want it to have a real title instead of the image being the <title>
<jsgotangco> im basing it on yelp anyway so its probably futile
<froud-work> <figure>
<froud-work>             <title>...</title>
<froud-work>             <screenshot>
<froud-work>                 <mediaobject>
<froud-work>                     <imageobject>
<froud-work>                         <imagedata fileref="../../images/&language;/inst0.png" format="PNG"/>
<froud-work>                     </imageobject>
<froud-work>                 </mediaobject>
<froud-work>             </screenshot>
<froud-work>         </figure>
<jsgotangco> oh ok so there's a mother node <figure>
<froud-work> we call it parent
<froud-work> ;-0
<jsgotangco> whats the difference between <inlinemediaobject> and just <mediaobject>
<froud-work> figure Model : (blockinfo?,(title,titleabbrev?),(literallayout|programlisting|programlistingco|screen|screenco|screenshot|synopsis|cmdsynopsis|funcsynopsis|classsynopsis|fieldsynopsis|constructorsynopsis|destructorsynopsis|methodsynopsis|address|blockquote|graphic|graphicco|mediaobject|mediaobjectco|informalequation|informalexample|informalfigure|informaltable|indexterm|beginpage|link|olink|ulink)+)
<froud-work> inlinemediaobject
<froud-work> end of mediaobject.attlist
<froud-work> end of mediaobject.module
<froud-work> doc:An inline media object (video, audio, image, and so on).
<froud-work> InlineMediaObject contains a set of alternative graphical objects. In DocBook V3.1, three types of external graphical objects are defined: VideoObjects,AudioObjects, and ImageObjects. Additional textual descriptions may be provided with TextObjects.
<froud-work> Category: Graphics
<froud-work> Inline to the para
<jsgotangco> hmm where do you get that?
<froud-work> from the DTD
<jsgotangco> ok im only using kate so im a bit limited but im catching up
<froud-work> mediaobject causes a break in the line
<froud-work> kate is good
<jsgotangco> ok i will just make drafts first before getting into dtd details
<jsgotangco> i will be more productive with that
<froud-work> this may be of help
<froud-work> http://www.sagehill.net/livedtd/docbookxml42/index.html
<froud-work> you can download it and install it
<jsgotangco> sounds good ill do that
<jsgotangco> bbl
<jsgotangco> hi abelli
<abelli> jsgotangco: ciao
<abelli> jsgotangco: how is life treating you
<abelli> ?
<jsgotangco> bad
<jsgotangco> but life is still good
<jsgotangco> we have our ups and downs
<jsgotangco> im at down at the moment
<abelli> huh right, im sorry for this.
<jsgotangco> its ok
<jsgotangco> i have been busy doing kubuntu stuff at the moment
<abelli> ohhh i see kde, here's the problem.
<jsgotangco> ?
<jsgotangco> problem?
<abelli> jsgotangco: huh have you got queries disabled?
<abelli> jsgotangco: sorry ... it was a stupid joke , :)
<jsgotangco> i don't get it is this some western joke?
<abelli> yes sorry.
<abelli> some particular joke, made by a senseless italian brain.
<Kinnison> ciao andrea. come va?
<abelli> Kinnison: ciao bene grazie, e tu?
<Kinnison> bene, bene
<jsgotangco> ok see you guys later
<jsgotangco> froud-work, busy?
<froud-work> for you I have a minute
<jsgotangco> wow
<froud-work> waz up
<jsgotangco> is it ok if i mess up your KDE quick guide
<froud-work> Sure go for it I have nothing in that doc
<froud-work> hack away
<froud-work> give it your best shot
<jsgotangco> i've made some changes to it just some drafts and stuff i thought it would be much better to do stuff in Kubuntu for now since Gubuntu is so cloudy at the moment
<jsgotangco> well ok i just renamed it to Kubuntu Kwick Guide for one
<Burgundavia> ick
<Burgundavia> sorry
<froud-work> no that is cool
<froud-work> let your ideas flow
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, its just drafts Kubuntu has nothing at the moment besides im learning this at the same time so bear with me
<jsgotangco> if it renders with yelp its fine with me for now
<froud-work> take into consideration the chats we have had recently about quick tour or quick guide
<froud-work> power to you dude
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, sorry, blanket response to k-labelled stuff
<froud-work> kubuntu kwick kuide (KKK)
<jsgotangco> im not messing up with gnome stuff till after UDU
<froud-work> jsgotangco: go for it nobody else is you are totally empowered to do what you think. At this stage everything should be in flux, even the gubuntu stuff
<froud-work> so is the case after every release
<froud-work> it is only near release that we need to settle down
<froud-work> take into consideration the talks we have had
<froud-work> Burgundavia pointed us to some nice examples
<froud-work> consider them also
<jsgotangco> im just doing a tree at the moment and experimented on yelp
<Burgundavia> somebody with more i18n experience answer the guy on the list?
<jsgotangco> hmmm
<jsgotangco> carlos said before all i18n should be rosetta
<jsgotangco> right?
<jsgotangco> ok ill answer this
<froud-work> jsgotangco: they can do it if our pots have not already come in from the packaging yet. I dunno if Rosetta has done that, mdke should check.
<froud-work> If Rosetta has the packages it will find the pots
<froud-work> then they should use Rosetta
<jsgotangco> i was about to say that
<froud-work> I dunno if Rosetta is doing what it should the way we discussed it, so if not the they should use svn
<froud-work> we dont want to stop them because rosetta is stuffed
<jsgotangco> right
<froud-work> jsgotangco: cool thanks dude
<mdke> wassup?
<froud-work> mdke: are th epots from our package in rosetta yet?
<froud-work> as we understand that is what will happen
<froud-work> or does happen
<froud-work> loco team wants to do pt
<mdke> froud-work, the situation has not changed to my knowledge
<mdke> there are still two copies of aboutubuntu and two of release notes
<mdke> i'll double check
<froud-work> and does not know to use svn or rosetta
<jsgotangco> i told them if its available in rosetta, do it in rosetta, if not we'll commit their po
<mdke> i will answer if possible
<mdke> just checking email now
<froud-work> speak to jsgotangco he is answering
<mdke> froud-work, nicely handled with that deka guy
<froud-work> huh?
<mdke> Re: how to install programs and pluggins in one place
<froud-work> ah ok
<froud-work> jsgotangco: no top posting dude
<mdke> ok yeah i know that portugese guy
<mdke> the quickguide isn't in rosetta iirc
<jsgotangco> froud-work, ok thanks for reminding
<froud-work> so th esystem of rosetta getting form our packages is broke
<froud-work> not good
<froud-work> I tought it was meant to be fire and forget
<mdke> froud-work, don't think there is a system man
<mdke> check out this email from carlos on the rosetta list
<mdke> http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/rosetta-users/2005-April/000423.html
<mdke> the last part is relevant to docteam
<jsgotangco> jeezz
<froud-work> mdke: unless we resolve issues like this we will have enormous overheads and get no work done
<mdke> i'm gonna have a chat with him now
<froud-work> thanks
<mdke> this is a major issue
<jsgotangco> whats the use of translation if they dont do it in rosetta
<jsgotangco> its supposed to reduce overhead
<froud-work> people think in terms of i10n and not i18n 
<mdke> ?
<froud-work> localization and translation
<froud-work> $1 = interface
<froud-work> $2 = documents
<jsgotangco> im not following you
<mdke> i don't get it
<mdke> i18n stands for internationalization
<mdke> what is i10n?
<jsgotangco> localization
<froud-work> when they designed rosetta they had localization in mind
<froud-work> not translation
<mdke> hmm
<froud-work> there is a big diff
<jsgotangco> explain further please
<mdke> carlos mdke: Can we delay it a bit, I want  to answer all mails I have about that (and other user support ones)
<mdke> mdke carlos, yes of course, lemme know when?
<mdke> carlos mdke: sure
<jsgotangco> because the english for me seems the same
<froud-work> localization is releted to the interface
<jsgotangco> ahh
<jsgotangco> interface=gnome/kde
<froud-work> menus etc
<froud-work> guilabels
<froud-work> etc
<jsgotangco> hmmm
<mdke> jsgotangco, did you say you had replied to joao?
<froud-work> thatis i10n
<jsgotangco> yes now i get it
<mdke> froud-work, rosetta is designed for translation in that case ;)
<jsgotangco> thats why i was doing abiword and its all menu stuff
<mdke> jsgotangco, it should have all the parts, error messages etc
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jsgotangco> i get it now
<froud-work> but docs are free prose and presnet challenges
<jsgotangco> so that means i18n is not rosetta's goal
<mdke> well as far as aboutubuntu and releasenotes are concerned, they are in rosetta, albeit with 2 copies
<mdke> and all is translatable
<froud-work> yes, not without problems
<jsgotangco> but majority in rosetta are apps and that explains it so
<froud-work> i18n was an after thought
<jsgotangco> that's why in hoary, you localize apps
<froud-work> always is
<jsgotangco> ok i learned something new again
<froud-work> people often get confused between localization and translation
<mdke> froud-work, so are you suggesting we don't use rosetta for translation of our docs?
<froud-work> the call then the same thing
<mdke> it is an option
<froud-work> mdke: no we want to
<mdke> froud-work, obviously it would be desirable
<froud-work> just wish they would make it work
<jsgotangco> it would be much easier for us if our docs are in rosetta as well
<froud-work> I must work now
<jsgotangco> ok
<jsgotangco> froud-work, thanks again
<mdke> we just need to forward them the pot file afaik
<jsgotangco> i will be sleeping soon
<froud-work> np
<mdke> i'll ping you guys if carlos calls
<jsgotangco> ok im going to sleep see you guys later
<mdke> k
<mdke> jsgotangco, did you answer joao?
<mdke> if not i'll do it
<jsgotangco> mdke, i did but before reading carlos' email
<jsgotangco> i told him if its available in rosetta, do it in rosetta, if not, we'll commit
<mdke> jsgotangco, i didn't get the mail
<jsgotangco> its sent to ubuntu-doc as well
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> ok it will be here soon then
<jsgotangco> yep its alrady on archive
<jsgotangco> ok see you
<mdke> froud-work, this will make you smile: https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/PaulBoddie/
<mdke> "vanilla ubuntu" ;p
<froud-work> you see, people need to make the diff, I still like gubuntu
<mdke> vanilla ubuntu is the best i've heard lol
<froud-work> vubuntu
<mdke> vavavoombuntu
<froud-work> pronounced voo boontoo
<mdke> carlos has written another msg to our list
<froud-work> uh now carlos says that the quick guide will be in today
<froud-work> and joas is gonna take form trunk
<mdke> don't worry
<mdke> we'll talk to them both
<mdke> in any case po files can be uploaded to rosetta
<mdke> i've replied just now to joao
<carlos> hi
<carlos> mdke: tell me
<mdke> hi carlos 
<mdke> maybe froud-work will join us too
<mdke> carlos, we wanted to try and clear up the confusion of documentation in rosetta
<mdke> first of all: are things imported into rosetta automatically?
<mdke> such as our documents
<carlos> anything that enters into Ubuntu's archive is imported automatically
<carlos> (if it has a .po/.pot file)
<carlos> but the documentation should be handled in a different way
<mdke> carlos, what do you mean by "should"
<carlos> because you want to publish .pot files *before* they enter into Ubuntu, right?
<mdke> carlos, maybe you can help us figure out what we want
<carlos> mdke: "should" is that it's not done atm but we are going to prepare a way to do it
<mdke> carlos, the system currently is confused: we write docs and can make pot files from them
<carlos> then, you need to put those .pot files into Rosetta
<mdke> carlos, i am not sure whether these pot files go into the ubuntu Archive or not
<carlos> mdke: if they exists in the .deb's source packages
<mdke> carlos, yes we need to ask enrico about that
<carlos> they enter into the ubuntu archive
<carlos> I think ubuntu-doc ones does
<mdke> carlos, currently, there are TWO copies of two of the ubuntu docteam documents
<mdke> and NONE of the quickguide
<mdke> carlos, can you remedy the duplicate situation?
<carlos> mdke: yeah, the quickguide was my fault
<carlos> hmm, can you give me the URLs?
<mdke> yeah hang on
<carlos> we don't have an easy way to change that atm, still working on it, but I can try to do something...
<mdke> we need to figure out why it happened
<mdke> ok they are:
<mdke> https://launchpad.ubuntu.com/distros/ubuntu/hoary/+sources/ubuntu-docs/+pots/review-hoary-ubuntu-docs-1
<mdke> then 1/2/3/4
<mdke> this is probably due to a problem in the source package you think?
* carlos checks
<carlos> so -1 and -3 are the same
<carlos> and -2 and -4 are also the same
<mdke> i can't remember
<mdke> either that or 1=2, 3-4
<carlos> mdke: no, 1 and 3 have 127 messages and 2 and 4 have only 24
<mdke> ok that's it
<mdke> we only have one pot file in our repository, i don't know how it happened
<mdke> any ideas?
<carlos> the source package of ubuntu-docs have lots of .pot files
<carlos> aboutubuntu/about-ubuntu.pot
<carlos> quickguide/quick-guide.pot
<mdke> so far so good
<carlos> releasenotes/release-notes.pot
<mdke> any more?
<carlos> and then some extra .pot files inside common/
<carlos> but we don't have support for more than one .pot file inside the same directory
<mdke> carlos, but the thing is, only one per document, whereas in rosetta there are two
<carlos> and that's why they are not also imported
<mdke> carlos, oh thats not a big deal we can figure that out
<mdke> carlos, i will make a mental note though
<carlos> yeah, not sure why it's that way, let me check something...
<mdke> carlos, thanks
<mdke> once we have figured this out we can get onto other stuff
<carlos> ok
<carlos> mdke: is there anyway you name the .po files as ca.po instead of about-ubuntu-ca.po ?
<carlos> as they are inside a directory, you should know the "about-ubuntu" part
<carlos> and that way, Rosetta is able to import those .po files automatically
<mdke> carlos, i'm most concerned about getting the original .pot files in, as probably for the next release we will not have partly done translations in our tree
<mdke> carlos, what we want to work on is to figure out whether rosetta will be capable of working for our documentation
<carlos> mdke: if you give us your requirements and they are not too difficult to achieve, I don't think there should be any problem. If it's difficult because it breaks the current workflow too much, we need to study it before to know if it's possible or not
<mdke> carlos, ok, all i want to do is to find out why there are duplicates so that we can fix it
<mdke> carlos, it may be that rosetta does not need work done to achieve our requirements, we just need to coordinate and communicate so that we know it works
<carlos> mdke: ok, I know where is the problem
<mdke> cool
<carlos> mdke: it's because the package I got from you to do the initial upload
<carlos> mdke: it's using different paths
<carlos> than the ubuntu package
<mdke> right so we can fix this
<carlos> mdke: yes, but you don't need to care about it
<mdke> how come?
<carlos> I will kill the old one and that's all
<mdke> great
<mdke> merci
<mdke> right what was my second issue
<carlos> I need to check now why the quickguide was not uploaded automatically...
<mdke> carlos, side issue: how come the quick-guide.pot is not uploaded?
<mdke> LOL
<carlos> :-)
<carlos> mdke: sorry, I cannot explain you where is the problem...
<carlos> because I don't understand what's failing
<mdke> carlos, ok we can work on it later
<mdke> carlos, next question?
<carlos> I need to look into the problem with more time. Seems a bug in our import code, but I don't understand why...
* carlos opens a bug
<mdke> carlos, i'll file?
<carlos> mdke: sure
<mdke> ok you, cool
<carlos> hmm, if you could file it, is better..
<carlos> :-)
<mdke> cool will do
<mdke> carlos, next question: is there any way to give them better names? does this depend on the pot file structure?
<mdke> review-hoary-ubuntu-docs is bizarre
<carlos> mdke: yes, there is a way to change that, no you cannot change it directly.
<mdke> so it doesn't depend on the hoary upload?
<carlos> It's my fault it's still that way, need to review (as the name says) to give it better names
<mdke> Ohhhhhh
<carlos> mdke: it's only related with the first upload
<carlos> we try to guess a good name
<mdke> hoary-ubuntu-docs would be an improvement ;)
<mdke> right next question
<carlos> but sometimes it's not possible (like ubuntu-doc's .pot files) and we need to review it by hand
<Burgundavia_> carlos, that url is horrible
<carlos> Burgundavia_: the URL will change also
<Burgundavia_> carlos, good, is much too long
<carlos> as soon as we use the right name
<mdke> obviously from now on we will be working on documentation for breezy and the existing documentation will change a lot: in order to change this in rosetta, we should (a) upload pot file manually, (b) upload to hoary/breezy, (c) figure out a way for rosetta to get it from our repository (d) some other option????
<mdke> carlos, tell me if the question isn't clear
<carlos> mdke: yes, it's completely clear
<carlos> mdke: we are going to work on a proposal next week 
<carlos> mdke: will give you some input before implementing anything. Until that moment, you should give me the .pot files you want to upload into Rosetta and I will be your "interface"
<mdke> carlos, that's fine
<mdke> carlos, will they be overwritten by the older ones in the hoary archive?
<carlos> no, as you can see, the URL you are using has "hoary" in it
<carlos> so the development one will be in other URL
<mdke> right
<mdke> and what will happen to the hoary one?
<mdke> if translations are made
<mdke> do they get uploaded back into hoary source and upgraded?
* froud reads log
<carlos> mdke: if you fix the problem with the .po names, the available translations will appear as soon as you do a new upload into Hoary
<carlos> about the .pot files, until you have a way to upload them, you should send me them also
<froud> some of the problems can be averted on our side
<mdke> carlos, I mean, what will happen to translations which happen on Rosetta
<mdke> do they go back to the hoary archive?
<froud> seems there is a constant problem with &quot;
<carlos> mdke: for applications, yes. For documentation, is your choice
<froud> we must use <quote></quote>
<mdke> carlos, right we will need to talk to enrico about that
<carlos> mdke: the language packs are not able to handle documentation
<mdke> carlos, so we will need to get the .po files manually from rosetta and upload them?
<carlos> mdke: yes
<mdke> right that seems clear
<mdke> good
<carlos> froud: could you give me more details, please?
<mdke> froud, can we address questions of compatibility separately
<carlos> froud: if possible with links to Rosetta to see it
<carlos> mdke: ok, for the rename
<carlos> mdke: ubuntu-docs/aboutubuntu, ubuntu-docs/quickguide and ubuntu-docs/releasenotes
<carlos> those will be the URLs
<mdke> carlos, lovely
<carlos> what do you want for the descriptions?
<mdke> What is the current description?
<froud> carlos: I dont see rosetta, jus the src on our side. I notices that when we use entity references we have problems
<froud> for example I have an &entity; here
<mdke> froud, entities come up in rosetta, and as long as the translators maintain them in the translation, then this is fine
<carlos> also, you will have one ubuntu-docs/deprecated-do-not-use until we can remove it, ok?
<mdke> carlos, great
<mdke> carlos, for description just "releasenotes for ubuntu hoary" or whatever
<carlos> mdke: the current description is review-hoary-ubuntu-docs-3 for ubuntu-docs in Hoary Hedgehog
<mdke> ok then aboutubuntu for ubuntu-docs in Hoary Hedgehog seems reasonably compatible with the descriptions of the other packages in the tree
<carlos> froud: could you at least give me the msgid? (I suppose the German translation is a good place too look for the problem)
<carlos> mdke: you don't need to follow the standard
<froud> we had it in German cause of charcters
<mdke> carlos, i'm not too bothered
<carlos> mdke: as long as the description let the user know that it's for Hoary and that it's documentation is ok
<mdke> carlos, fine
<froud> also had problems in tl
<froud> not sure that this was due to rosetta though
<mdke> yes we did have character problems
<carlos> as those sound more related with the .po export
<froud> it mainly occures in our xrefs etc
<carlos> could you file a bug report with all of them?
<froud> yes I think it is the escaping \
<mdke> carlos, we'll try and get together a more definitive problem
<carlos> with the msgid that is causing the problem
<froud> sometime too many \\\
<carlos> so we can debug it easily
<carlos> froud: yeah, it's possible, there is already an open bug about escaping problems
<froud> but is it rosetta or msgmerge
<froud> or po2xml
<carlos> https://launchpad.ubuntu.com/malone/bugs/119
<froud> ok rosetta
<froud> well at least we know why, tought it was me :-)
<froud> mdke: do you have the process clear in mind now?
<mdke> carlos, with breezy in mind, i had one more question
<mdke> carlos, it is not possible to get language translations done in Rosetta to be exported automatically either to breezy archives, or better, to our svn repository?
<carlos> Not in the near future
<carlos> but add it to the wish list
<carlos> mdke: what we have is a way to get all .po files inside a tarball
<mdke> carlos, you think in the 6 months before breezy it is doable
<carlos> but we are improving it so it's faster. At the moment it takes a lot of time to do the export.
<carlos> mdke: it depends on many factors
<carlos> mdke: integrated with SVN... I don't think so
<carlos> if you are able to get something like the language packs that Martin is doing at the moment but with documentation...
<carlos> then it's doable, yes
<mdke> carlos, we would have to get some developers on it
<mdke> carlos, i think that would have to be put to sabdfl
<mdke> but as it is, I am happy to get the files manually and commit them
<carlos> and perhaps if you move to arch/bazaar, is also doable, but not sure. Our plan is to move back translations into bazaar, but we don't have a date for it
<carlos> mdke: as I said, add it to the wish list so we don't forget it when we discuss Rosetta future next week.
<mdke> carlos, so Rosetta is going to be abandoned before it is perfected in favour of bazaar?
<carlos> no way :-)
<mdke> ok phew
<carlos> I'm talking about adding a way to export translations from Rosetta into bazaar automatically
<froud> bazaar need sa gui
<froud> for adoption in this team
<mdke> carlos, anyway I feel a bit clearer about the process now, and I hope that we will iron out those duplicate/naming problems
<carlos> mdke: today should be fixed
<carlos> will ping you when it's done
<mdke> carlos, we can test run the quickguide in rosetta and see how it goes
<mdke> carlos, there is a portugese team just waiting to be let loose on it
<mdke> i'll also try and stir up the italians
<mdke> carlos, thanks for all your help
<carlos> no problem
<carlos> and please, file bugs as soon as you detect them
<mdke> right
<carlos> so we can also fix them :-)
<mdke> i will follow up what we've discussed
* carlos didn't know about the duplicate problem until today
<mdke> carlos, i've posted it to the rosetta list about 3 time
<mdke> s
<mdke> :p
<carlos> thought it was only a problem with the names
<mdke> but in future i will use malone for stuff like that
<carlos> thank you
<mdke> hmm
* mdke wonders about the chances of getting another docteam upload to hoary
<carlos> mdke: will you rename the .po files then?
<mdke> carlos, you mean the ones in common/?
<carlos> mdke: no, the .po files
<carlos> from DOCUMENT-es.po to es.po
<carlos> so Rosetta can import them automatically
<mdke> carlos, the difficulty is that we have already tagged that release
<carlos> and people can see that those translations already exists 
<mdke> our tree is working for breezy now
<carlos> mdke: you are not getting new updates?
<mdke> carlos, I have no idea about the possibility of uploading to hoary from now on
<carlos> there is a pt_BR translation from this weekend for about ubuntu
<carlos> mdke: it's ok to upload translation updates
<carlos> I think the documentation is inside that case
<mdke> froud, is it possible for us to commit new translations to the tagged tree, for uploading to hoary as an update
<mdke> ?
<froud> renaming could have large impact on us
<froud> especially in commons
<mdke> froud, its just the .pot/.po files that need to be renamed
<mdke> froud, it could be included in the xml->po and po->xml stage?
<froud> to lang.po
<froud> but what about pot?
<mdke> what is the distinction?
<carlos> froud: the .pot file is ok as it's atm
<mdke> ah right
<carlos> froud: in fact, is better if you don't rename the .pot file to often or Rosetta will get confused
<mdke> carlos, our current tree does not have the po files in the same directories, we have restructured the tree
<mdke> carlos, do you want to take a look at it?
<froud> we have automated our en.xml > pot > po > nn.xml process
<carlos> mdke: oh, then Rosetta will not be able to import the .po files ...
<froud> would have to change scripts
<carlos> but it's not a big problem, we need to add support for that configuration, so don't worry
<mdke> carlos, that is not a problem because it is only the .pot file that needs to go into rosetta 
<carlos> mdke: not really
<mdke> individual translations can be uploaded separately
<carlos> if you don't want people waste their time
<carlos> mdke: you need to upload .po files into Rosetta 
<froud> I'm a bit lost
<froud> I thought they are already there
<mdke> carlos, ok we need to make a distinction between hoary and breezy here
<carlos> mdke: ooh, I see your point. Ok
<froud> we need to get them
<mdke> breezy = ALL translations to be done in rosetta, none outside, if possible
<froud> but to upload changes we need the same file sname conv
<froud> otherwise we get duplicates
<froud> right?
<mdke> froud, what do you mean?
<froud> trying to understand
<froud> hold a sec
<froud> as I see
<froud> we give pot
<froud> locos make pos
<froud> in filename nn.po
<froud> we get this
<froud> we need to keep this convention
<froud> so when we have changes the same filename exists in rosetta
<froud> right?
<carlos> mdke: well, if you import a .po file that has been downloaded from Rosetta, the statistics part of Rosetta also changes
* mdke 's head swims
<froud> import to where
<carlos> mdke: so people can know how many translations landed into Ubuntu already
<carlos> mdke: (instead of purple you get green bars)
<mdke> right...
<froud> carlos you want po files in nn.po naming convention?
<carlos> froud: yes, please
<froud> fine
<froud> done
<mdke> listen hold your horses here everyone
<mdke> froud, that only helps if they are uploaded to the hoary repos
<carlos> froud: it's the only way we have to map the .po files to the right language
<froud> ok
<froud> clear
<mdke> and to upload we need to rename and upload our OLD tagged tree, correct?
<froud> I will update our script
<carlos> mdke: right, and that's done as soon as you upload a package into the archive
<carlos> mdke: not really, I will take care of it
<mdke> froud, are you clear that we are talking about the OLD trunk
<froud> I cant do much in old trunk
<carlos> mdke: as soon as next releases are done with the new name...
<froud> freeze is frozen
<froud> the change must happen in rosetta
<mdke> ok we need to be very clear here
<carlos> mdke: I'm talking about both, hoary and hoary+1
<mdke> for breezy this problem doesn't arise because we won't be uploading po files
<mdke> they will be created and made in rosetta
<froud> carlos you will have to rename all current po files (hoary ones)
<froud> I will rename in breezy trunk
<froud> that way if we import the file name is the same
<froud> will that work
<carlos> froud: ok
<froud> mdke: we cant do much about hoary here
<mdke> froud, right, that is what I asked you
<froud> what we need is to make sure breezy trunk conforms
<mdke> froud, much of mine and carlos's conversation has involved hoary: in fact rosetta does not yet have breezy in it
<froud> At end of our dev there will alread be a file for nn.po in rosetta
<froud> mdke: I cannot do anything about hoary it is gone
<froud> trunk is now breezy
<mdke> *sighs*
<mdke> i understand that
<froud> so we need to move fwd
<froud> providing that carlos has the same filenames as we do then it will merge
<froud> ahead in time
<froud> carlos: is that correct
<froud> eg
<carlos> mdke: but as soon as breezy is added to launchpad, the translations will be imported automatically, so better fix it as soon as possible :-)
<mdke> yes of course
<mdke> carlos, but we haven't uploaded to breezy yet don't worry
<froud> you have hoary ver of es.po that you renamed
<froud> I rename breezy version to es.po
<froud> in rosetta the hoary and breezy po files merge
<froud> carlos: do I understand it
<carlos> froud: yeah, as I said, don't care about Hoary, I will fix that
<froud> OK that makes life easier
<mdke> carlos, if it appears (as froud says) that the docteam is unwilling to do any more uploads to hoary, then it will be a good idea to remove the docteam things from rosetta
<carlos> unless you release updates to the Hoary documentation, in which case, you should use the new names, please.
<froud> mdke: we need to focus on getting trunk in shape
<mdke> froud, that will not be difficult
<carlos> mdke: I doubt we are not going to accept documentation updates
<froud> carlos: we have no update to hoary
<carlos> but I'm not the right person to ask
<mdke> froud, it would be a translation only update
<froud> mdke: no
<carlos> froud: yeah, I'm talking about translations updates
<mdke> froud, the other translations in rosetta will be uploaded into hoary via the language packs
<mdke> froud, no what?
<carlos> froud: really? it's just like a language pack update
<carlos> the language packs will be updated once per month
<froud> so we will be patching tags/
<carlos> So Hoary gets security + critical bugs + translations updates
<mdke> froud, i wanted to explore the possibility
<mdke> froud, otherwise we should remove the docteam stuff from rosetta/hoary
<froud> ooooh we are getting into trouble
<mdke> because people will be doing translations that will not get into the distribution
<mdke> froud, why?
<froud> mdke: ok but we must make sure that we apply our patches to the tag and not trunk
<mdke> froud, yes, in fact I would be in favour of removing all translations from trunk when they are imported into rosetta
<froud> and now we will have to rename trunk and tag
<mdke> froud, we can explore the possibility with enrico and mdz (we have to make sure they are willing to accept the upload first)
<froud> how to you propose getting the xml
<mdke> froud, yes this is a good point
<froud> at some point a po must hit our repos
<mdke> froud, oh sorry i wasn't clear
<froud> on our side we have the process
<mdke> froud, after the existing translations are imported into rosetta, the proposition is that all translation is done in rosetta, then, shortly before release, the po files are taken from rosetta, made into xml, and released
<froud> internally that is
<mdke> getting the po files from rosetta would be done manually, and I am happy to do it
<mdke> and commit to our repo
<mdke> am i being clear?
<froud> mdke: can we automate
<mdke> no
<froud> email the po
<froud> to the list
<mdke> good idea
<mdke> carlos?
<froud> first committer does svn commit
<froud> get po files as they are complete
<froud> not one big job
<froud> we still need to make the nn.xml
<froud> so es.po must become manual-es.xml
<froud> we need to test
<froud> and we nee to check the screen capts
<mdke> yes
<froud> sorry I like stuff in dribs and drabs
<carlos> mdke: ?
<froud> that way work level is more or less constant
<froud> with big batches everyting goes mad
<froud> then quite again
<mdke> carlos, we are talking about the process of getting completed po's from rosetta (for hoary+1): you remember you said it was difficult to automate, froud wonders if it is possible to automate emails sent to the doclist with completed po files
<carlos> mdke: not atm, not sure in the near future
<mdke> ok we can think about it
<mdke> froud, otherwise I will keep an eye on it
<carlos> mdke: but it has not too much mistery, we will have a URL to get all .po files for that POTemplate
<froud> mdke: yes, but add files as they complete
<mdke> froud, i said I would add that to the rosetta wishlist
<carlos> so it should be easy
<mdke> froud, yes fine
<mdke> carlos, yes of course, so it is easy to do manually
<froud> carlos: why not script it and wget new po files
<froud> sorry I am a lazy bugger
<mdke> this will not be our biggest issue
<froud> the more auto the better
<froud> mdke: you know I am gonna have problems renaming in tags/
<froud> the make system will break
<carlos> 'About page for Ubuntu Hoary', 'Quick Guide for Ubuntu Hoary' and 'Release Notes for Ubuntu Hoary' -> Those are the descriptions/titles people will see after the rename, is it ok?
<carlos> froud: you are free to do the script :-)
<froud> titles are good
<mdke> carlos, cool thanks
<mdke> froud, ok we can talk about the tag issue now, but carlos doesn't have to stay right?
<froud> sure
<mdke> great
<mdke> carlos, :) thanks a million for your patience
<carlos> no problem
<froud> mdke: renaming of files in trunk is gonna break many things
<froud> the debs build system for one
<mdke> froud, hmm
<froud> enrico has many rules and directories
<mdke> froud, which shall we talk about first?
<froud> which ever
<mdke> i have a good solution for trunk
<froud> let here
<froud> hear
<mdke> oh no i need to think it through
<mdke> i'm gonna think out loud
<froud> ok
<mdke> essentially, it is not necessary for breezy that po files get uploaded automatically from the breezy archive. It is only the pot files that need to be uploaded directly to rosetta
<froud> y
<mdke> we will be getting the po files from rosetta and committing them
<froud> y
<mdke> what I did last release was to rename de.po to aboutubuntu-de.po
<mdke> etc
<froud> y
<mdke> before committing
<mdke> the only thing that needs to be done is for the existing translations in trunk to be uploaded to rosetta, once. This can /should be done manually
<froud> I will change script to create name-de.xml from de.po
<mdke> froud, brilliant
<froud> yes
<mdke> that is all needs to be done afaics
<froud> yes trunk is easy
<mdke> ok good
<mdke> shall we move to hoary now?
<froud> y
<mdke> again what is proposed is the manual committing of po files from rosetta
<froud> y
<mdke> convertion to xml, upload to hoary archive
<froud> y
<mdke> ok your turn
<mdke> what are the difficulties we might encounter
<froud> if we commit es.po we will now have name-es.po and es.po
<froud> to keep integrity we need to keep naming conv
<mdke> what is wrong with committing name-es.po
<froud> so before commit we mv nn.po to name-nn.po
<froud> then we update the current make
<froud> hoary one
<froud> if we do this we will be ok
<froud> then enrico must update debs
<mdke> we need to get enrico involved
<mdke> yuh
<froud> yep
<mdke> what are his movements atm?
<froud> somewhere on planet earth
<froud> this is why I lik eto automate stuff :-)
<froud> long story of experience
<mdke> yeah i understand
<froud> no single person is a point of failure
<froud> provided that directory paths dont change and filename conv is kept we r ok
<froud> but make file needs update and so does deb
<froud> anyway we look at it
<mdke> well at the moment we have no updated po files to worry about
<froud> becuase at present they do not know about these new locos
<mdke> oh right
<froud> correct, but if say we get a pt quickguide then we have aproblem
<mdke> yeah
<froud> at present we only have fr
<mdke> ok
<froud> and just today a loco wanted to make pt
<mdke> carlos is putting the quickguide in rosetta today so maybe we will get more
<froud> provided that the loco stuff is not forever and in buckets we can manage
<mdke> froud, so you think that maybe we can deal
<froud> we can deal
<froud> as we have discussed here
<mdke> i will try and write up a report of this discussion
<froud> but we must be sure not to commit hoary to trunk
<mdke> absolutey
<mdke> l
<froud> one mor ething
<mdke> shoot
<froud> when we have new po in tag
<carlos> Quick Guide has 534 messages, right?
<mdke> carlos, something like that
<froud> we must then merge that update to trunk
<mdke> froud, hmmmmmmm
<froud> it is easy if we have no po
<carlos> the rename and the import was done in our development server, I hope it will be also done in the public server in one hour or so
<froud> but if there is a po we now have to resolve conflicts
<mdke> froud, can't it just be replaced?
<mdke> with the newer one
<carlos> after that, I will do the .po import
<mdke> carlos, gracias
<carlos> mdke: de nada
<carlos> :-P
<mdke> carlos, what po's are you importing?
<carlos> mdke: will import the ones that are in hoary's archive
<froud> carlos we have no po file to import
<carlos> ubuntu-docs_1.0-2
<froud> they should be in rostetta already
<froud> no?
<mdke> froud, no they are not because of the naming issue
<froud> Ah ok
<carlos> froud: no, I need to fix the name so they land into rosetta
<carlos> :-)
<mdke> carlos, that is very cool thanks
<froud> ooh this is now mesy
<froud> mdke: carlos is changing names but we are not in tag
<froud> oh no it is ok
<mdke> froud, carlos will be changing names just to import to rosetta
<carlos> froud: the rename will only affect Rosetta, don't worry
<froud> yes
<mdke> i feel totally drained ;)
<carlos> :-P
<froud> has that problem
<froud> mdke: new po files must be merged to trunk
<froud> mdke: new po files in tags must be merged to trunk
<froud> mdke: no problem when new
<froud> mdke: problem when update
<mdke> hang on a tic
<mdke> i am being slow maybe:
<froud> mdke: conflicts will occur
<froud> ok
<mdke> 1. what is the reason they need to be merged to trunk
<mdke> 2. if they do, can't the updates ones just overwrite the old ones
<froud> mdke: why have it only in tag
<froud> mdke: providing the one in trunk is has no breezy info
<mdke> froud, because for breezy, translation will be done in rosetta (hopefully)
<froud> what when you have overlap
<mdke> hmmm
<froud> people could keep making translations of qg for 12 months
<mdke> yeah i take your point
<froud> there are enough langs
<mdke> we have a problem
<froud> not really
<froud> just overhead
<mdke> when rosetta opens to breezy, the po files will not get uploaded automatically unless they have that naming pattern we've talked about
<froud> thatis fine
<mdke> yeah?
<froud> ok lets take it slow
<mdke> ok
<froud> 1. in tag we get a new po
<mdke> yes
<froud> 2. in tag we make new xml
<mdke> y
<froud> 3. in tag we update make and build
<mdke> y
<froud> 4. we check in trunk if po exists
<mdke> k
<froud> 5. if exists merge to trunk
<froud> opps
<froud> 5. in not exists, we merge to trunk
<froud> 6. if exists we diff
<mdke> can't it be overwritten rather than diffed?
<froud> check the diff resolve conflicts
<froud> no
<froud> if po in trunk is breezy
<froud> then
<froud> it may contain updates for breezy
<mdke> but the po's in trunk will be hoary, because they will be those left over, won't they?
<froud> if delta is same msgid as in trunk we have a conflict
<mdke> although the english versions will have changed
<froud> eng changes, so does pot
<froud> pot changes uploads to rose
<froud> po comes back to trunk
<froud> interim po comes for hoary
<froud> same file different version
<mdke> hang on
<froud> must merge carefiully
<mdke> i don't get this stage: froud pot changes uploads to rose
<froud> ok sect 1, 2, 3
<mdke> oh you mean breezy rosetta
<mdke> yeah sorry
* mdke slaps himself
<froud> ok consider it again
<froud> sect1, 2, 3 in trunk changes
<froud> sect 4,5, 6 dis not
<froud> say each sect is 1 msgid
<froud> now somebody takes hoary creates new po
<froud> but we alsready have po for breezy back from rosetta
<mdke> hang on i'm not following you
<froud> now 456 is good
<mdke> you need to use a bit fuller language
<froud> but 123 is problem
<froud> ok
<mdke> what does "froud now somebody takes hoary creates new po" mean
<froud> this is hard I try again
<froud> 2 paragraphs
<froud> for breezy we update 1
<mdke> y
<froud> the second remains unchanged as it was for hoary
<mdke> ?
<froud> we sent a pot file for breezy
<mdke> oh sorry yes
<froud> and got back a es.po
<mdke> from rosetta?
<froud> para 1 is new
<mdke> right
<froud> yes
<froud> para 2 is same as hoary
<froud> so in hoary and  breezypo files the diffence is para 1
<mdke> y
<mdke> yes
<froud> ok now comes a typo
<froud> in para 2
<froud> in hoary
<froud> the same typo is in breezy
<mdke> yes
<froud> we want to fix breezy
<mdke> yes
<froud> we merge changes from hoary to breezy
<froud> what is the difference
<froud> para 1 + typo
<mdke> yes
<froud> so what will happen is we will end up with hoary para 1 being merged to breezy para 1
<froud> and now we have a conflict
<froud> he strings are not the same
<froud> the change in para 2 will apply without problem
<froud> it is para 1 that is now the problem
<mdke> the typo correction is done in the xml file right?
<froud> should be in the po file
<mdke> what po file?
<froud> the type was found in hoary
<froud> it was changed in haory
<mdke> i thought we have frozen hoary
<froud> say the loco mispelled a word
<mdke> oh you mean in the translation
<mdke> hmmm
<froud> as of now it is not
<froud> since we are acepting po files
<mdke> froud, well english is frozen i mean
<froud> yes
<mdke> right I'm beginning to follow you
<froud> good now you ask
<froud> why do we want a new po file from hoary in breezy
<froud> if we did not have a po file in hoary chances are we dont have one for breezy
<mdke> yeah
<froud> we would like it for breezy
<froud> but our eng doc changed 10%
<mdke> yeah
<froud> do we expect locos to translate the 90% again
<froud> no
<mdke> no
<mdke> so it needs to be uploaded to rosetta
<froud> we want the pot process to change the 10% in the pot file
<mdke> s/uploaded/merged and uploaded
<froud> that way when we upload the pot to the rose
<froud> the locos see that the difference between the new pot an dthe old po is 10%
<froud> they loco the 10%
<mdke> yeah ok
<froud> and we get new po
<mdke> froud, you have the patience of a saint
<froud> we make diff between old po and new po
<mdke> thanks
<froud> we apply diff only
<mdke> isn't it possible to diff before uploading to rosetta?
<froud> ok so you understand the problem
<mdke> so that in rosetta it shows as 90% complete
<froud> no the xml2pot does that
<mdke> they translate the remaining 10%, then we get it and commit
<froud> when we xml2pot it only updates what has changed
<froud> not the whole pot file
<mdke> there is no problem updating the master pot file in rosetta, that will get updated when we upload to breezy archives
<froud> xml2pot does does our merge for us
<froud> we send the whole pot to the rose
<froud> but rosetta sees that it is 10% new
<froud> 90% done
<froud> why
<froud> because of the old po files
<mdke> yes
<froud> the diff between the new po and existing po files in the rose is 10%
<mdke> yes
<mdke> erm
<mdke> hang on
<froud> now we get back new po
<mdke> ok yes
<froud> 10% diff to what we have in svn
<froud> we dont just copy over if 
<mdke> why not?
<froud> we apply the diff
<froud> when you do svn commit
<froud> it compares the head with WC
<froud> and sends the diff
<mdke> oh
<froud> not the whole file
<mdke> so if I was downloading new po files from rosetta, i would just replace them, then do svn commit, and it would be fine?
<froud> yes, provding there are no changes in the wc po file
<froud> which ther should not be
<froud> since we only accept po from rose
<froud> but when you commit you are applying the diff only
<mdke> let me just get this clear
<mdke> i would get the new po from rose, do a cp to the relevant place in my working copy of svn, then commit, and that would be fine?
<froud> carry on I must put my kids to bed
<mdke> ok
<froud> yes, providing you have no changes from hoary that are in the delta
<froud> otherwise a fix in hoary brough to breezy will be overwitten
<froud> that is why I suggest you diff first
<mdke> hmm
<froud> then if no conflict do cp
<mdke> it would simplify things greatly if po files were only added to hoary/tag once
<froud> if conflict first resolve
<mdke> wouldn't it?
<froud> :-)
<froud> brb
<mdke> i'm serious: i suggest we only add po files to hoary/tag once. Not allowing for correction
<mdke> it is something of an achievement to get them in at all
<froud> mdke: I forgot something
<froud> lets say you update a typo in hoary po
<froud> and you have a breezy po
<froud> you merge the fix to breezy
<froud> you are happy cause breezy is fixed
<froud> now somebody fixes breezy po in th erose
<froud> rose
<froud> you get new copy
<froud> can you just do cp
<mdke> yeah this is too much
<froud> no
<froud> so you must upload fixed svn breezy po to th epose
<mdke> i seriously think that we should just add po files to hoary once, and merge them to breezy once, and upload those to rosetta
<mdke> and not allow further correction in hoary
<froud> it will not avoid you the problem
<mdke> why?
<froud> ok I add new hoary po
<froud> we already have a new brezy po
<mdke> why?
<mdke> where from?
<froud> what if two locos
<froud> one takes hoary pot and on one takes breezy pot
<froud> both translate
<froud> we are happy for the hoary po
<froud> we are happy for the breezy po
<mdke> froud, they can't take breezy po's
<froud> for how long?
<froud> when they do does that mean we acept no new po files for hoary
<mdke> froud, the suggestion is for all breezy translation to be done in rosetta right?
<froud> yes
<froud> but hoary is ongoing
<mdke> froud, so if we only accept hoary translations once, and don't permit corrections, the merge and upload to rosetta only needs to be done once right?
<mdke> rather than all the time
<froud> yes
<froud> in theory
<froud> but are you gonna tell a guy he cant patch his hoary thing
<froud> he did the work
<froud> it is his
<froud> he is entitled to path it
<mdke> froud, after we upload a translation to hoary, i think we can close any correction and say "please work on the version for breezy"
<froud> yes itis better
<mdke> uhoh
* mdke senses netsplit
<froud> :-) coffee
<froud> but you understand the problem
<froud> that is the main thing
<mdke> yeah i hope i do
<froud> that you are aware of the problems that now result
<froud> being aware is half the problem solved
<mdke> given these problems, what do you think
<froud> leave it
<mdke> i'm tempted to say leave it too
<froud> let it run 
<mdke> let what run?
<froud> take new and patches
<froud> the more hoary improves
* netjoined: irc.freenode.net -> tolkien.freenode.net
<froud> the more we can improve breezy
<mdke> froud, so despite the problems we've discussed, you are willing to try to allow translations to hoary?
<froud> yes, because of the compound effect
<mdke> is it worth it?
<mdke> hmm
<froud> ok slow
<froud> guy runs hoary
<froud> oh look a typo
<froud> fixes it
<froud> gives it to us or to rose
<froud> we get it in tags
<froud> nice fix, oh we have it in breezy too
<froud> lets fix breezy
<mdke> i think its gonna get messy if we start fixing every typo in tags
<froud> all hapy
<froud> but we must make sure to send po file back to rose
<mdke> better to encourage people to work on rosetta/breezy 
<froud> so now our source is inline with us
<froud> mdke: we are upstream for rose
<mdke> what do you mean by that
<froud> if we get fixes to pot or po we puch it down stream
<froud> then the role reverses
<froud> we are downstream to rose
<froud> they push us changes
<froud> we must always ensure that we push changes before rose 
<froud> that way when we get back the po we get it back with our fix
<froud> otherwise we are wasting our time merging fixes from hoary to breezy
<froud> cause the new rose files will not hav ethe fix
<froud> coffee
<mdke> lol
<mdke> i'm afk for a while
<froud> mdke: do you work in a softwar ehouse
<froud> or have you ever
<froud> Think of it this way then
<froud> when customer by large software it is expensive
<froud> they may upgrade every release or every other release or every thrid release
<froud> in some cases the upgrade once in several years
<froud> deoending on the support contract the customer has with the software vendor, the vendor must continue to support the version they have
<froud> so lets say the customer runs version 3 and finds a bug
<froud> but the vendors current shipping product is version 6
<froud> do they not fix the customers problem when they are under contract
<froud> they must
<froud> and they do
<froud> but when they do they also check v 4, 5, 6 to see if that bug was fixed in those versions
<froud> if not they fix the bug in all versions 3 >
<froud> the compound effect is worth the overhead
<froud> while working on grumpy we can concievably accept fixes to hoary
<mdke> froud, ok fair enough
<mdke> froud, i'm certainly willing to help where I can
<froud> you have been a great help with this already :-)
<froud> thanks
<mdke> np
<mdke> thank you for your patience
<froud> no worries
<carlos> mdke, froud: ubuntu-docs names fixed
<carlos> https://launchpad.ubuntu.com/distros/ubuntu/hoary/+sources/ubuntu-docs/+translations
<froud> thnks carlos 
<mdke> carlos, gracias amigo
<carlos> mdke, froud: In about 10 minutes, the quickguide should be uploaded (perhaps it will take more time, not sure, it depends on the load of the server)
<carlos> so don't pay attention to the current content, it will be fixed as soon as the import is finished.
<mdke> ok
<mdke> you're writing over one of the releasenotes with the quickguide yes?
<mdke> froud, there is already a brazilian aboutubuntu that we can use when testing whether we are going to be successful in tags
<carlos> mdke: yes
<froud> mdke: lets do it no fear
<froud> trust svn
<froud> hack the code
<mdke> :)
<carlos> mdke: the quickguide is in place now
<carlos> and you have two strings already translated into german :-P
<froud> dam that rose grows fast
<carlos> froud: it's from the release notes, I reused that potemplate and seems like you are sharing two strings in those .pot files
<carlos> :-P
#ubuntu-doc 2005-04-30
<jsgotangco> good morning!
<jsgotangco> hi EricNeon 
<EricNeon> morning jsgotangco
<jeffsch> hello jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> whoa the chat log was steaming...
<jeffsch> yea, it's pretty big
<jeffsch> I see you had a question about alt text
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jeffsch> use textobject element for that
<jsgotangco> hmm ok ill check that on the dtd 
<jeffsch> http://www.docbook.org/tdg/en/html/textobject.html
<jsgotangco> ok i get it now i use mediaobject instead
<jeffsch> mediaobject instead of what?
<jsgotangco> inlinemediaobject
<jeffsch> you can use textobject in both  mediaobject and inlinemediaobject
<jsgotangco> hmmm ok ill just experiment then
<jeffsch> mediaobject is formatted as a displayed block, inlinemediaobject is formatted inline
<jeffsch> you put textobject at same level as imageobject within mediaobject 
<jeffsch> but you must put textobject after imageobject
<jeffsch> if the system can't find the image, it puts the text instead
<jsgotangco> <textobject> is inside <inlinemediaobject> then
<jeffsch> yes. I will show you example from quickguide...
<jeffsch>             <screenshot>
<jeffsch>                 <mediaobject>
<jeffsch>                     <imageobject>
<jeffsch>                         <imagedata fileref="../../images/&language;/desktop.png" format="PNG"/>
<jeffsch>                     </imageobject>
<jeffsch>                     <textobject>
<jeffsch>                         <phrase>Ubuntu Hoary Desktop</phrase>
<jeffsch>                     </textobject>
<jeffsch>                 </mediaobject>
<jeffsch>             </screenshot>
<jsgotangco> ahhh
<jsgotangco> <inlinemediaobject>
<jsgotangco> 		<imageobject>
<jsgotangco> 			<imagedata fileref="../../images/&language;/kubuntu-final.png" format="PNG"/>
<jsgotangco> 		</imageobject>
<jsgotangco> 		<textobject>
<jsgotangco> 			<phrase>Welcome to Kubuntu Linux</phrase>
<jsgotangco> 		</textobject>			
<jsgotangco> 	</inlinemediaobject>
<jeffsch> if you really want kubuntu-final.png to be inline, then yes
<jsgotangco> ok ill try some variations
<jeffsch> yea. you never know how yelp will handle it.
<jsgotangco> yeah i noticed that when I use inlinemediaobject, it uses the same image in the navigation bar below
<Liz> greetings all
<jsgotangco> hi Liz
<Liz> hiya jsgotangco 
<Liz> brb. reboot
<jsgotangco> what do you guys think of Kubuntu Kwick Kompendium (aka guide) sound
<jsgotangco> hi froud
<froud> morning
<froud> I see you got started with kwick guide
<jsgotangco> ive done loads now
<jsgotangco> ive yet to commit
<jsgotangco> i dont think its a quick guide anymore
<froud> I was just about to say
<froud> no matter put it in
<froud> lets see it
<jsgotangco> because ive been doing the tree and i think i can merge some docs
<froud> you never know we may reuse parts
<jsgotangco> that's why its now the Kubuntu Kwick Kompendium
<jsgotangco> haha
<froud> expalins
<froud> explain
<jsgotangco> i can probably merge kuserguide to this guide
<jsgotangco> the kuserguide can be lifted from existing kde docs
<jsgotangco> but the first part of the manual can be the quick guide
<jsgotangco> that has 3 audiences
<jsgotangco> 1. newbies
<jsgotangco> 2. switchers
<jsgotangco> 3. veterans
<jsgotangco> from the 3 sections i can expand the tree to guides, etc.
<froud> information is norally categorized under the following stages:
<froud> 1. preparation
<froud> 2. installation
<froud> 3. operation
<froud> 4. service
<froud> 5. troubleshooting
<froud> try not to merge the two
<jsgotangco> yes i noticed that in the manuals i've checked last night
<froud> what ever you do remember the focus of the doc spec
<jsgotangco> ok
<froud> it is easy to stray from it
* netjoined: irc.freenode.net -> tolkien.freenode.net
* #ubuntu-doc  [freenode-info]  please register your nickname...don't forget to auto-identify! http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#nicksetup
<froud> jsgotangco: I must go to meetings
<jsgotangco> ok
<jsgotangco> one thing
<froud> boy that was a heavy net split
<froud> y
<jsgotangco> froud, if i do that scheme that would be a very big manual
<froud> each is a seperate manual
<jsgotangco> hmm
<jsgotangco> you sure of this?
<jsgotangco> it can be done in one
<froud> stick to the focus of quick guide
<froud> yes it can be in one
<froud> but it would best be a set
<froud> see set element in dtd
<jsgotangco> ok i got it
<froud> c u later
<Kinnison> Morning
<jsgotangco> hi Kinnison!
<jsgotangco> froud_, u back?
<jsgotangco> gyaahhh i need a haircut see you guys later
<mdke> hi hypatia 
<mdke> Treenaks is called Martijn van de Streek.
<mdke> i'll put it on the page
<hypatia> thanks
<mdke> hypatia, thanks very much for your thoughts on the list
<mdke> i'll try and incorporate some of people's ideas into the testing wiki pages in the next few days
<hypatia> I will also try and do some sketchpad work.
<mdke> :)
<hypatia> we'll need to bite the bullet eventually though and start editing the real thing.
<mdke> well if we develop the new testing Frontpage sufficiently, then it can simply be replaced
<mdke> hypatia, you know, actually given what people have said on the list about differentiating between User documentation and making separate wikis for Developer and other stuff, I'm actually fairly attracted to the idea of http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/SimpleFrontPage
<hypatia> I like that one.
<hypatia> But I'd replace Documentation with Getting started or something.
<hypatia> "Help us write and translate documentation for Ubuntu." should really be a Community thing.
<mdke> yes i agree
<mdke> i haven't touched that page yet
<mdke> but its a start
<hypatia> It does seem to be good start.
<hypatia> Then we get the fun of the next level :)
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> have you seen the state of http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/UserDocumentation ;p
<hypatia> Wow.
<hypatia> We need a Wiki Love Day.
<mdke> or Week
<mdke> but the problem is we never know whether the thing is going to be moved or not
<hypatia> can't you just move it back? yay for revert wars... ;)
<hypatia> who does the moving?
<mdke> hypatia, i mean moved to a different wiki
<mdke> hypatia, i mean moved to a different wiki
<mdke> (just in case you missed that)
<hypatia> Oh right.
<hypatia> Yeah, I heard about that.
<hypatia> But I thought you meant pages moved.
<mdke> no that shouldn't be a problem
<hypatia> Well, that really ought to be added to the list of stuff we'd like the devel/admin team to consult with us about :)
<mdke> yes good point
<mdke> i bet that is going to be high on the UDU list
<hypatia> last I heard they were kind of panicing about the amount of work involved in a clean migration, especially of rest content.
<mdke> my view is that its wasted effort
<hypatia> I don't like either Moin or zwiki, I like MediaWiki.
<hypatia> And since that's not going to happen (PHP) I think I'll just relax and let other people worry about the choice.
* mdke nods
<jsgotangco> hey hey do i hear wiki love in the air
<mdke> hey guys, i have something I want to share
<mdke> on the italian channel we are dealing with 2 or 3 people a day who have problems caused by adding the marillat repositories specified by ubuntuguide.org
<jsgotangco> we hatesesss our wiki even moooree
<mdke> i like it
<jsgotangco> i like wiki but not ours
<mdke> i like working with what we have ;)
<mdke> what do you guys think about this ubuntuguide.org business
<mdke> seems to me that its causing trouble
<hypatia> I don't know much about it.
<hypatia> It's third party isn't it?
<jsgotangco> he doesn't even communicate as froud as said before
<jsgotangco> if you've seen svn there's even a docbook version
<mdke> hypatia, yes
<hypatia> I should have a look at it.
<hypatia> Are there useful ideas there for mining?
<mdke> its a very comprehensive guide, but dangerous IMO
<jsgotangco> it is
<hypatia> the website doesn't seem to be responding.
<hypatia> I better get to bed.
<hypatia> goodnight guys, hoping to participate in some wiki love soon.
<jsgotangco> mdke, its a good guide at the beginning but the latter parts are just flaky and dangerous
<mdke> jsgotangco, does he accept corrections?
<jsgotangco> i tried before but he didnt respond to my emails
<mdke> charming
<mdke> well he is mucking up a lot of people's systems ;)
<mdke> i might write
<jsgotangco> i was one of them before
<mdke> maybe he listens but doesn't respond
<jsgotangco> i hope so
<jsgotangco> i was talking to an active forum poster from malaysia and he said the same thing he doesnt respond
<abelli> ohhh everybody ciao .. thank you for the warm welcome
<jsgotangco> give us some docteam love
<mdke> hi abelli 
<abelli> smack&&slurp
* mdke recoils
<abelli> who are you talking about?
<jsgotangco> ubuntuguide.org
<jsgotangco> mdke, i hope he responds to your email
<mdke> jsgotangco, i'll write later
<mdke> need to do lots of things today
<mdke> jsgotangco, did you see the talk we had with carlos about rosetta?
<jsgotangco> ok i gotta finish my laundry i haven't got anything done yet for my trip
<mdke> shit is UDU coming up?
<jsgotangco> yeah
<abelli> mdke: sorry ... 
<mdke> i need to do that letter to mdz too
<jsgotangco> on monday
<abelli> jsgotangco: sorry ..
<mdke> abelli, de che
<jsgotangco> mdke, yeah with carlos, i wouldn't rely on rosetta for now, maybe after breezy but not now
<abelli> mdke: i was saying that ubuntuguide.org contains some debian-policies' breakage about runlevels
<mdke> jsgotangco, well we're going to try
<jsgotangco> that chat log was huge
<mdke> abelli, really? that is important
<jsgotangco> i spent like reading it half an hour
<mdke> abelli, its all over the wiki as well
<mdke> jsgotangco, we're going to try and get some translations into Hoary as well as Breezy
<abelli> mdke: wiki?
<mdke> abelli, in fact I only learnt the proper way to do it recently from Fabio
<jsgotangco> good luck im sure carlos can do wonders
<abelli> huh right .. yes .. the wiki is also broken if talking about runlevels
<mdke> abelli, yes
<mdke> there was a classic one here: https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/StopGnomeFromRestarting
<abelli> mdke: your advice it's not really compliant either actually :)
<jsgotangco> we cant stop people from posting stuff in the wiki but i wish we had something like that in mediawiki where we can tag entries as "contestable" or "questionable"
<mdke> abelli, feel free to correct
<abelli> mdke: just say .. use ubm :)
<mdke> abelli, we need to get that in universe
<mdke> i have to go now, i've got a class
<mdke> :/
<abelli> ciao
<mdke> see you later
<jsgotangco> ciao
<abelli> hopefully well get it in main as gnome system monitor :)
<abelli> Kinnison: halo
<mdke> abelli, well that will be some way away: it needs to go in upstream for that
<jsgotangco> ok im out as well
<jsgotangco> abelli, ciao
<mdke> bye all
<abelli> jsgotangco: im not leaving
<abelli> mdke: lo so.
<jsgotangco> ahh
<jsgotangco> ok im leaving then
<jsgotangco> ciao
<abelli> ciao
<Kinnison> abelli: In response to your question from yesterday; have you considered the stuff on www.linitx.com ?
<abelli> Kinnison: let me see
<abelli> Kinnison: no i didnt know this place .. aint this a little expensive?
<abelli> something like minitx.com
<jalrnc> mdke: hi matt
<mdke> hi jalrnc 
<mdke> i just walked in now
<mdke> sup
<jalrnc> hi
<jalrnc> rosetta looks good now, thanks
<mdke> cool
<mdke> jalrnc, i hope it will work and that we can get it in hoary
<jalrnc> mdke: even if we can't, it's still good to get some work going for breezy
<mdke> jalrnc, yes indeed
<jalrnc> I'm not a Rosetta expert, but if I wanted to do revisions/corrections to already translated docs, how can I get to them using Rosetta? It seems after a doc is 100% done all I can do is download the PO file...
<mdke> jalrnc, you need to be a member of the relevant translation group
<jalrnc> oh I see
<mdke> jalrnc, there doesn't seem to be a portugese one, you could form it
<mdke> there is a brazillian one tho ;)
<mdke>  Ubuntu Portuguese Brazilian Translators (ubuntu-l10n-pt-br)
<jalrnc> sure, I can form one based on our current translation group in the loco team
<mdke> jalrnc, yeah i recommend you do that
<mdke> jalrnc, just ask in #launchpad or send carlos an email
<jalrnc> how can I do it?
<jalrnc> sure
<mdke> it is possible to create the team yourself, but I believe that they prefer you to ask them
<jalrnc> I'll ask them :)
<jalrnc> mdke: can you send me Carlos' email address?
<mdke> jalrnc, rosetta-users@lists.ubuntu.com ;)
<jalrnc> thanks :)
<mdke> jalrnc, but he uses irc, so you can ask him in there if you prefer
<jalrnc> he looks idle, but I'll try
<mdke> jalrnc, note: that email address is a public list
<mdke> jalrnc, just say his name, and he'll get back to you
<jalrnc> yep, I noticed :)
<jalrnc> mdke: done, we have a team now
<mdke> good
<froud> hey enrico
<enrico> froud: hey!
<froud> welcome back dude
<froud> lot sof happenings
<froud> much confusion
<enrico> oh, no
* enrico doesn't like confusion
<froud> well it is good
<froud> lots of stuff going on and people are doing things
<froud> solving problems co-ordinating, giving ideas
<froud> its great
<froud> healthy debates
<enrico> this is nice!
<froud> but no decisions as yet
<froud> so much stuff is still in the air
<mdke> yo enrico 
<froud> enrico: one ting you need to know
<froud> we will be accepting new translations to the hoary tag
<froud> and patches
<froud> this may mean you will hav eto udate debs in tag
<enrico> shouldn't it be a hoary branch instead of a tag?
<enrico> froud: sure: just tell me if I have to do a new build+upload
<mdke> ah thanks man
<froud> yeah, we have, with mdke, mostly solved integration to rosetta issues
<enrico> So Rosetta does documents now as well?
<froud> mdke: I am in the process of renaming the po files
<froud> enrico: yes
<enrico> AWESOME!
<mdke> enrico, they are in there, we need to see if it will be successful
<froud> enrico: a bit rough, but workable
<froud> enrico: from our part I think at least two of us understand the full issues
<froud> mdke and i
<enrico> I guess that being in there will make the rough spots visible and fixable
<froud> yes
<froud> some of the current problems are already bugs for them
<enrico> I'm incredibly happy to see that everything goes on without me!
<froud> yes we get through, with difficulty
<froud> some of the team understand now why we are on about putting in place as many automated processes as possible
<enrico> we should find a moment and put down some "lessons learned"
<froud> such as
<mdke> enrico, we missed you tho
<enrico> Well, I have two of them:
<enrico> 1) Let new people start with something easy, even if trivial and boring.  That allows to concentrate on getting used to the others without being distracted too much by the task
<froud> mdke: we need to update http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocteamStepByStepl18n
<mdke> froud, i will do it, i have writing an email to the list on my ToDo list
<mdke> froud, gimme a couple of days k?
<enrico> 2) Give constant feedback: noone should ever ask themselves: "am I really doing something useful?"
<froud> I agree strongly with p 2
<enrico> and of course, as people get to know the rest of the team, allow them to move to things they like better, and trust them
<enrico> as trust will have built in the meantime
<froud> yep
<enrico> I found these two "rules" to apply in almost every volunteer place
<enrico> My girlfriend would like me to write a paper about it :)
<enrico> However, a case study on our "preparing hoary" experience, would have some great stuff inside
<froud> enrico: when is elmo upgrading to svn 1.1?
<enrico> froud: I don't know.  I thought he had done it already?
<froud> he did not post anything
<froud> and svn did not go down
<froud> enrico: btw we now have language specific under control in svn
<froud> the new entity language works well
<enrico> froud: did you deploy the recursive makefiles, then?
<froud> not yet, I need your help there, I am a bit lost
<froud> I also need to update i18n.sh now because of file naming convention change for po files
<froud> enrico: I need to find som etime to study it more
<froud> and I need to ask you questions
<froud> not tonight though
<froud> just got back from lectures
<enrico> froud: feel free to ask
<froud> mdke: new po file naming convention is now in svn
<mdke> cool
<froud> enrico: do you think we can go without yelp for breezy?
<enrico> froud: I think that's a question for mdz
<froud> enrico: here is an idea I have for our help system based on a web browser
<froud> http://www.inwords.co.za/helpsys.png
<enrico> froud: oh, yes, I remember your plans
<enrico> however, I'd be careful with it
<froud> explain
<enrico> I think Ubuntu has an interest in not diverging too much with upstreams
<enrico> one more divergence == one more thing to maintain
<enrico> and also
<enrico> one more divergence == one upstream author looking at Ubuntu puzzled
<enrico> (although I'm not sure about this last one)
<froud> I understand, but it seems every corner I turn that yelp is holding back so many great things we can do
<froud> and users are complaining
<enrico> froud: understood.  Have you tried discussing your proposal with Sean?
<enrico> And anyway, I think that making a list of things held back and user complaints to attach to your proposal can definitely help
<froud> which Sean (GNOME
<enrico> froud: sorry: Shaun
<froud> yeah, but he does not see it as being done anytime soon
<froud> lack of coders
<froud> we have had some very intersting critique from users on help systems
<froud> I dont think they fall in Shaun's objectives
<enrico> How about doing a HoaryHelpSucks wiki page and dumping criticisms and ideas there?
<froud> remember I am not saying we wont install gnome help and yelp, only that Ubuntu docs wil not be in yelp
<enrico> right
<froud> we have it in th elist
<froud> and some pages on access and structure
<froud> In the last few days quite a few people have been commenting on list
<froud> which is good
<froud> I did not realize we had so many subscribers
<froud> :-)
<froud> suddenly they are coming out of the wood work
<enrico> froud: have you got enough simple jobs ready to give out? :)
<froud> not really, I have some, but not enough because there is indecision
<froud> about who the audience is, what the structures should be
<froud> should or shouldn't have a faq like we do now
<froud> etc
<froud> technically, if we wing it, we have lots to do
<froud> the question is should we wing it, or discuss and plan first
<enrico> froud: what do you mean with "wing" ?
<froud> "seat-of-the-pants"
<froud> go by the "seat-of-the-pants"
<froud> guess and pray
<froud> there is some work happening
<enrico> well, at the very beginning we all tried to put down some organization for the docteam
<enrico> it didn't lead to much, except talking and talking
<froud> js is hacking the kubuntu kwick guide
<froud> yes
<enrico> it went better when we got one goal (namely, the QuickGuide)
<froud> but this tme I think we have committers
<enrico> then the work kind of self-organized
<froud> yes, but we got slated on the quick guide
<enrico> yes, the group is larger
<froud> I am hacking the kubuntu/gubuntu insallation guide
<froud> corey is meant to be doing the faq guide, but he has lost his commit ability as he lost his keys
<froud> some people have been doing admin stuff
<enrico> oh, that's unfortunate
<froud> mdke and js have helped with gettinglanguage support right
<froud> so stuff is happening
<froud> but no real serious writing
<froud> at present you may have seen lots of list discussion
<froud> I think user guide should be a go, I , or anyone else need to take hornbecks great out line from wiki and get people started on it
<froud> I think I can get thi soutline in svn before weekend
<enrico> I guess you could do an outlike in docbook, with the status="outline" attributes, then write some firestarted chapters, then help people getting the first patches coming
<froud> Ok, wil see what I can do
<jjesse> wow w/ work being so crazy i feel so lost as to what the current state of documentation is
<froud> jjesse: hi, yeah kinda hectic with me to
<froud> jjesse: just got a big contract do
<froud> hey I am now dead tired an dam off to cuddle in bobo land
<jjesse> we are deploying 100 phones, new Cisco VoIP system this week
<froud> h he he I will be installing an Asterisk PBX next month with SIP soft phones
<jjesse> i've heard really good things about Asterisk, haven't had a chance to look at it
* enrico uses a SIP soft phone to call his girlfriend in the Nederlands
<enrico> veery convenient: saves my day! :)
<jjesse> where is the Nederlands ??? :)
<froud> jjesse: very cool, bit in the cd and it does it all for you
<enrico> jjesse: Netherlands?
<enrico> jjesse: .nl :)
<froud> you just need to undertand how to configure PBX systems
<froud> well dudes, I is off, c ya
<jjesse> fourd i've done very little pbx stuff, mostly routers/switches and now founds :)
#ubuntu-doc 2005-05-01
<zdsl> hello
<jalrnc> hello, is anyone experiencing problems with the ubuntu wiki? I'm not able to save pages after editing... preview works fine though.
<GeorgeDeka> hi all
<jsgotangco> wassup
<jsgotangco> gimme some docteam luv
<jsgotangco> hmmm
<jsgotangco> i will be talking to myself
<jsgotangco> at least the logs are getting this
<jsgotangco> there are a lot of discussions on the list and mostly are enthusiastic about the docteam projects
<jsgotangco> but how come no one is pulling docs from the existing svn
<jsgotangco> i can only see very few commits t the moment and its mostly minor changes
<jsgotangco> hmmm
<jsgotangco> am i seeing a pattern
<jsgotangco> hmmm
<jsgotangco> i will check the logs first maybe something is being cooked
<jsgotangco> hmm
<froud> African Greetings
<jsgotangco> hi froud
<froud> morn
<jsgotangco> i see enrico checked on things
<froud> sure, he is a bit busy but we can always count on him
<froud> hows your kwick guide doing
<jsgotangco> froud, im committing a draft you might want to see it
<froud> yeah, cool
<jsgotangco> ive taken consideration of the nature of the quick guide
<jsgotangco> you're right merging would be horrible
<froud> good, commit often is better, that wasy we can collabortate easier
<jsgotangco> im doing stuff on aboutkubuntu.xml as well but i will commit them later when i make some comments
<froud> ok
<jsgotangco> ill be installing qemu later so i can get screens of plain kubuntu
<jsgotangco> check how it works
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, just use the livecd, it is easier and (AFAIK) looks the same
<jsgotangco> hmmm
<Burgundavia> thus would you start with qemu -cdrom kbuntu.iso
<jsgotangco> ok i'll download it
<Burgundavia> now that is very very slow
<Burgundavia> my 2500+ takes about 15 minutes to boot any livecde
<jsgotangco> i havent slept that much so im a bit tired i've watched the new pope
<jsgotangco> http://www.wordpress.tokyotimes.org/index.php?p=518
<jsgotangco> haha
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, do you know how to leave a message for your svn commits? Makes it easier to say what has changed
<jsgotangco> hmmm
<jsgotangco> there is no such thing as than on esvn
<jsgotangco> i maybe wrong
<jsgotangco> wait
<jsgotangco> oh ok i know how now
<jsgotangco> thanks for reminding
<jsgotangco> i wasnt told about doing messages on commits
<Burgundavia> -m (AFAIR) on the command line
<Burgundavia> sorry, I have never used esvn
<Burgundavia> it must pop something up
<froud> jsgotangco: when you commit you have a large text field for your message
<jsgotangco> i got it on esvn now
<jsgotangco> have you seen the linuxjournal article on ubuntu
<froud> no link
<jsgotangco> http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/8253
<jsgotangco> "Ubuntu's sponsor, Canonical Ltd., has the necessary funding and a history of succeeding quickly and efficiently."
<froud> dunno what history that woul dbe
<froud> I dont think Marks success with Thwarte should be factored here
<jsgotangco> i know
<jsgotangco> unless Ubuntu becomes so mainstream it becomes a Redhat in a few years
<froud> And I think that people forget that it is community project sometimes
<jsgotangco> but thats a big gamble
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jsgotangco> Ubuntu != Mark
<froud> too much attention goes towhat Mark and Canonical wnat
<jsgotangco> he's the hogfather though
<jsgotangco> well mark's a businessman
<froud> yeah, but to succeed, Ubuntu needs community acceptance
<froud> and must remain with the community
<Burgundavia> we use zwiki, no?
<froud> no idea
<jsgotangco> i believe so
<Burgundavia> ok
<Burgundavia> ugh
<jsgotangco> i want to react on the article
<jsgotangco> hehe
<Burgundavia> their issue tracker sucks
<jeffsch> nice to see ubuntu is growing in popularity. I guess that means the doc team will be growing too... the more users, the more people wanting to contribute
<froud> yep, that is the bonus
<Burgundavia> ahh, software isn't perfect yet 
<Burgundavia> I could scream
<froud> Burgundavia: software never is
<Burgundavia> spent 1/2 hour arguing with my brother about why sepearation of programs is a good thing
<jsgotangco> we're growing
* Burgundavia is in rant mode, please ignore
<jsgotangco> but who's pulling the docs from svn
<Burgundavia> then I check me email
<Burgundavia> and more crap to deal with 
<Burgundavia> then I check my WP wathclist, more crap to deal with
<Burgundavia> and then I see zwiki's issue tracker and I almost kill myself
<jsgotangco> i've been reviewing the docs everyday and i rarely see big changes
<jsgotangco> shouldnt we start doing more stuff now
<Burgundavia> we should
<Burgundavia> I have been lazy and haven't done anything
* jsgotangco is doing what he can
<froud> jsgotangco: I have an improved outline of the usr guide in works
<jsgotangco> i mean
<froud> jsgotangco: I have a gubuntu / kubuntu isnatllation guide in the works
<jsgotangco> the lists looks like we're incredibly busy
<froud> jsgotangco: it is to be expected
<jsgotangco> but i only see few doing action
<froud> expect it
<froud> not many people will contribute via commits
<jsgotangco> ill just keep silent and commit
<froud> yes that is the way forward
<froud> actions
<froud> do
<froud> comiit
<froud> get to the finish line
* Burgundavia do is better, but bitch is easier
<froud> yes
<jsgotangco> true
<froud> I see it time and again
<jsgotangco> its becoming like election time
* Burgundavia is really really not having a good day, and feels the need to tell everybody about it
<jsgotangco> popularity posts ugghhh
<jsgotangco> i hate it
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, i dont mind im having a bad time either
<froud> jsgotangco: you just focus on the kwick guide
<jsgotangco> froud, sure am will do this no turning back
* froud hands Burgundavia a dirty hanky
<Burgundavia> focus on what you are passionate about and ignore the fools (like me)
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, you're cool to me
<jsgotangco> i like constructive bitching
<froud> Burgundavia: how about some patches on the FAQ
<froud> school run
<froud> brb
* Burgundavia will now shoot froud and drag the body into the river for mentioning his lazyiness
<jeffsch> I am working on a style guide. The initial doc plan for it is almost done
<Burgundavia> cool
<jeffsch> we will need a style guide for all those new writers we'll be getting :-)
* mdke reads emails
<mdke> sigh
<jsgotangco> right
<jsgotangco> i was looking at kde documentation last night
<jsgotangco> it was so clean and so professional
<jsgotangco> you think the kde foundation hires people to do that?
<jsgotangco> but their screenshots are so outdated i noticed
<Kinnison> Morning all
<jsgotangco> hi Kinnison 
<froud> jeffsch: commit the document
<froud> jeffsch: do you have a commit account
<froud> morn Kinnison , when can we expect some docs from you
<jeffsch> i will commit tomorrow. I am tired and want to check it over before committing
<froud> jeffsch: ok
<jeffsch> I also want to make a couple of wiki pages to support discussion and decision making for the document
<froud> fair enough
* froud thinks jeffsch is gonna be our editor :-)
<jsgotangco> weee
<jsgotangco> we need that
<froud> most important person on the team :-)
<froud> his way or the highway
<jsgotangco> we need a dictator
<froud> jeffsch: what do you think
<jeffsch> haha... in my dreams
<jsgotangco> no a benevolent dictator
<jsgotangco> hehe
<froud> no I am serious
<jsgotangco> or a docteam pope
<jeffsch> I hope there is more than one person interested in doing that type of thing
<froud> jeffsch: you wanna be editor and chief
<froud> yeah but there must be a head honcho
<froud> and you are the person for the job
<jeffsch> i wanna be world ruler, but I can settle for editor
<jsgotangco> woo
<jsgotangco> its settled then
<froud> Ok now you need to get an editing team that will conform to your specs
<jeffsch> I was hoping to be a bit more collaborative...
<froud> and ohh.... get a wip it may come in handy
<jsgotangco> whips are good
* froud hands jeffsch his handcuffs
<froud> I think Kinnison may have some intersting toys to lend you
<froud> jeffsch: it will be collaborative
<froud> but I think we need a person who is in charge of it
<froud> since you are doing a style guide you are th emost qualified
<froud> I love my editors
<froud> as every writer should
<jsgotangco> i can make you coffee
<jsgotangco> editors like coffee dont they
<froud> Burgundavia gives great foot massages
<Burgundavia> huh?
<jsgotangco> just dont be like J. Jonah Jameson
<Burgundavia> where did you dig up that dirt?
<froud> we wont tell you want Kinnison is good at, leave it as a surprise
<jsgotangco> jeffsch seems overwhelmed
* Kinnison sits and gets very worried
<jeffsch> my attention is wandering to The Daily Show on TV...
<Kinnison> froud: Trust me, you don't want documentation from me
<froud> Kinnison: oh yes we do
<jsgotangco> sure we do
<Kinnison> Burgundavia: back me up here
<jsgotangco> sissy
* froud sticks the dirty hanky in Burgundavia 's mouth
* froud looks back at Kinnison 
<Kinnison> again I say, trust me, you don't want documentation from me
<jsgotangco> you dont want an angry african eh
<froud> Kinnison: why not?
<froud> Kinnison: you are part of the furniture here, so may as well
<jsgotangco> we can always throw Kinnison for wiki work
<jsgotangco> he'd love that
* Kinnison isn't very good at writing docs, I don't understand the toolchain, I dislike svn and wikis dramatically and I spend all my work hours on Launchpad and my non-work hours on running my hosting ISP and writing my own code
<Kinnison> all adds up to a sucky person to give doc jobs to :-)
<froud> Ah ha we have a coder
<jsgotangco> what are you doing in Launchpad?
<froud> Kinnison: hows your python?
* jsgotangco nefarious looks as something is cooking...
<Kinnison> froud: it works
<froud> and jscript?
<Kinnison> it doesn't
<froud> Hmmm
<jsgotangco> 1 of 2 ain't bad
* froud thinks Kinnison could come in handy for a custom help system?
* Kinnison doesn't write guis
<Kinnison> If you want to look at the sorts of things I do write, look at my arch repository
<Kinnison> http://arch.digital-scurf.org/
<jsgotangco> aranha, dists, ksp-tools, onak
<jsgotangco> this is all klingon to me
<Liz> greetings all
<froud> linux chick
<jsgotangco> ok i see bazaar thats one thing i only recognized
<froud> howzit
<jsgotangco> hi Liz
<Liz> good thanks..how are you both?
* froud thinks we need to give Liz some work
<Kinnison> jsgotangco: aranha is my baby
<jsgotangco> froud, aye
<Liz> nooo..not work
<Liz> heh
<froud> Liz: how about the user guide
<jsgotangco> Kinnison, ahh...im not to familiar with this but what does it do?
<Kinnison> jsgotangco: aranha is a web app dev platform
* Kinnison admits that the rewrite isn't going as quickly as he'd like though
<Liz> theres more additions to make?
<jsgotangco> most of the things you do are for bazaar?
<Liz> i need to svn the thing first
<Liz> let me go do that first
<Kinnison> jsgotangco: No, I keep my code in bazaar
* Kinnison has done some baz work though
<froud> Liz: ok let us know when you are ready
<froud> OK I am now in work mode, c ya later
<jsgotangco> i see i understand now
<jsgotangco> isn't aranha portuguese
<jsgotangco> arachnid or something
<jsgotangco> jeffsch, do you think its ok to edit global.net if i need to add some more
<jsgotangco> or do i ask froud-work first
<froud-work> jsgotangco: you should do so if you feel that it is warranted
<Liz> ok its loading now
<jsgotangco> yay
<Liz> gonna go make some dinner while this is loading
<Liz> bbiab
<Liz> hi sivang
<sivang> He Liz 
<sivang> Liz: 'sup?
<Liz> dinner..bbiab
<sivang> Liz: laterz
<jeffsch> ok, I'm off to bed. cyall later.
<jsgotangco> night
<Liz> bbl
<jsgotangco> later people im going out
<froud-work> c ya
<sivang> Has anyone seen enrico lately?
<Burgundavia> I think he showed up yesterday
<sivang> Burgundavia: eh, I see, what's up? how's documentationg going?
<sivang> hey li	
<Liz> hey sivang 
<Liz> how are you?
<sivang> Liz: fine, busy , but cool :)
<sivang> Liz: are you going to attend UDU?
<Liz> udu?
<Liz> whats UDU?
<Burgundavia> UbuntuDownUnder
<Burgundavia> I wish I could be there
<Burgundavia> dammit
<Liz> oh yeah..its in sydney
<Liz> im waiting for the "where, time, how much"
<Liz> but so far, i havent seen anything 
<Burgundavia> next week
<Burgundavia> free once you get there
<Burgundavia> as for location see the udu wiki
<Liz> ahhh..is that where it is
<Liz> they are having an installfest there as well
<Liz> i should volunteer
* Burgundavia thinks evil thoughts about installing FC3
<Liz> okjust signed up
<Liz> i dont think they realised that the 25th is anzac day down here
<Burgundavia> anzac day is a holiday no?
<Burgundavia> much like remembrance/veterans day?
<Liz> yes
<Liz> it shouldnt matter too much 
<Liz> sigh..between classes and it taking me an hour to get up there
<Liz> its going to be a fun week
<Liz> and on that note
<Liz> im off to bed
<Liz> nite all
<mdke> evenin claude
<claude> hi
<claude> much traffic these days on the list
<mdke> indeed
<mdke> lots of words
<mdke> lots of ideas too :)
<claude> when you're off 2 or 3 days, it takes a lot of times to get the train :)
<claude> yeah
<mdke> yeah i bet
<mdke> claude, gmane can be useful to follow threads
<claude> for now i will be most an observer
<mdke> claude, we are working on a new method for translations: we hope to get some new translations into hoary (e.g. of quickguide through rosetta)
<mdke> i am doing a write up of what we hope to do this evening, and will post on the wiki/list
<claude> rosetta is still so bugged :(
<claude> what about integration into lang-pack ?
<mdke> not a chance ;)
<mdke> afaik the lang-packs are really centered around interfaces rather than documentation. but you could speak to pitti about it if you like
<claude> you talked with Carlos about it ?
<mdke> yes
<mdke> at length ;)
<claude> he he
<mdke> i'll try and finish the writeup tonight
<claude> i think that all documentation should be exempted of freezing
<claude> is it against debian rules ?
<mdke> well the main documentation has to be frozen really, or translation is difficult IMO
<mdke> claude, but I don't think translation documentation uploads will be a problem
<mdke> carlos thought they wouldn't be
<claude> hope so
<mdke> if we sort out the logistics, we'll contact mdz
<mdke> brb
<claude> k
<mdke> back
<mdke> claude, have updated the l18n page, if there are any inclarities or inaccuracies please let me know
<claude> mdke: need to review, but i think all this is still too complicated
<mdke> claude, tell me more
<claude> about special characters, i did'nt use entities when translating in French
<claude> i left them in UTF-8
<mdke> fine
<mdke> claude, what is too complicated?
<claude> mdke: not your explanations, but the entire process
<mdke> there is not much more we can simplify it
<claude> not sure about the "make po" or "make pot"
<claude> think the i18n.sh script all this stuff
<claude> must check with froud
<mdke> froud will have to check that, I know nothing about it
<claude> maybe there should be a document for translators
<claude> and another one for what happens "behind the scene"
<mdke> claude, to be honest, nothing on that page is for translators really, all they have to know is how rosetta works, and there are separate pages for that
<claude> k, maybe this should be more clear on that page
<mdke> yes you are probably right
<mdke> i'll add an introduction
<claude> unless we risk to frighten i18n (or l10n) volunteers
<mdke> yeah ok
<mdke> claude, added an introduction
<mdke> thanks for noticing that
<claude> great
#ubuntu-doc 2006-04-24
<trappist> playing with linux is all the real job I need
<trappist> I couldn't be happier
<mdke> good job
<mdke> I need a job like that
<LaserJock> well, if I got a real job that was computer related I'd be happy, but then that wouldn't really be using my degree
<trappist> if my career path is any indication you get here thusly: 1) get a tech support job  2) write some silly scripts until you get promoted to a programmer gig  3) convince a small linux shop that you're a linux guy waiting to bust out of his professional win32 shell  4) ???  5) profit!!!
<LaserJock> I think I would get stuck at 1)
<trappist> there's definitely a danger of that
<trappist> but my sister's already well into 2) :)
<mdke> 4) sounds like the key
<LaserJock> well, I mean I couldn't get *into* 1)
<mdke> me neither
<trappist> pfft.
<trappist> anybody.  and I mean anybody.  can get into tech support.  if you can afford to live on the wages.
<mdke> i need to look into getting a job as a lawyer for an open source company
<LaserJock> mdke: that would be cool
<trappist> that'd be awesome
<trappist> or go work for rms :)
<LaserJock> yikes
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> that sounds like hard work
<LaserJock> I don't think I could handle that much stress
<mdke> even worse than now :D
<trappist> or become independently wealthy and do all pro bono work for oss
* Burgwork likes that option
<mdke> good plan
<trappist> I've decided that if a fat pile of cash ever falls into my lap ima set up a foundation to support desktop oss projects
<LaserJock> I'd like to see more professional software in my field (chemistry) that has good licenses so that I can get universities to use Ubuntu more
<mdke> yep
<trappist> ruby would be a great language for chemistry software
<LaserJock> I'm getting into python now
<mdke> I could go on a rampage for converting the legal world to linux, it wouldn't be so hard
<trappist> I avoid python
<LaserJock> mdke: there is a big thing in the sciences for non-commercial use only licenses
<trappist> mdke: you think?  I'd figure a lawyer would be like "no warranty? not even the implied warranty of merchantability or suitability for a particular purpose? NO ONE TO SUE IF IT BREAKS?!"
<mdke> heh
<mdke> there is _always_ someone to sue
<trappist> esp. in the us
* mdke sues trappist 
<mdke> how dare you
<LaserJock> I'd just like to see OSS work in the scientific arena, it is sort of odd since science and OSS have similar philosophies
<trappist> pretty soon smokers will be suing the companies that ship the fertilizer to the tobacco farms
<LaserJock> trappist: good idea, I never thought of that ;-)
<trappist> LaserJock: I don't think they do.  if I want to read a scientific journal I have to pony up $$ to subscribe.
* mdke gets out a pen and paper
<LaserJock> trappist: sort of, but we are all about the open development and sharing of ideas
<trappist> mdke: http://overlawyered.com/ for more great ideas
<mdke> thanks
<LaserJock> it isn't so much of a money issue (although there are plans to change that as well) but the openness
<trappist> yeah I blame the journal people, not the scientists
<LaserJock> scientists usually don't care since they usually have access to most journals anyway
<LaserJock> although they should
<trappist> yeah even students usually have access to journal publications
<trappist> paying students
<LaserJock> even the public at most universities
<trappist> I just wanna be able to google for something and not get shut down if the hit happens to be on an abstract of a scientific journal article
<trappist> is that so wrong?
<LaserJock> but universities pay huge amounts of money for the subscriptions (there are several chemistry journals that are ~$1000USD/year)
<trappist> such a tease, being able to read the abstracts
<LaserJock> heh, yeah. I hate that
<LaserJock> that is changing though
<LaserJock> there are more and more free journals and somebody figured out that it didn't make sense to have taxpayer funded research be so expensive to accesss
<LaserJock> wow, to many "s"s
<trappist> that is a helluva good point
<trappist> research funded by me should by god be available to me
<LaserJock> yeah, so  now NIH is going to a system where publishers get 6 months and then it goes public
<LaserJock> I think it is a reasonable idea
<trappist> that's a step in the right direction
<trappist> well my day's over... talk to you fellas later
* trappist &
<LaserJock> the other idea was making authors pay for the publication (they do some now anyway)
<mdke> night night
<mdke> need my beauty sleep for some hard core lawyering
<mdke> especially with the new ideas that trappist has given me
<crimsun> I hate the idea of premium journals period
<ompaul> crimsun, the CODATA people are wondering why give away an article to be reviewed and then have to pay a fortune to read the research you generated 
<ompaul> crimsun, methinks the publishing industry needs to rethink its model
<crimsun> it's utter crap
<ompaul> so the question is there room for a "log onto a peer review" server and communitise it with a small fee for the unis that keep these servers up - present pdfs or some such
<ompaul> just seems kinda logical
<robotgeek> who has ops in here?
<LaserJock> hmm, I don't know that anybody does, perhaps Seveas knows
<robotgeek> _frank's client is flooding, i guess
<LaserJock> robotgeek: ask Burgundavia 
<Burgundavia> robotgeek: hmm?
<Burgundavia> ok, who is NaamanCambell again?
<LaserJock> bustacap I think
<Burgundavia> hmm
<Burgundavia> thought? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NetworkDevices?action=diff&rev2=12&rev1=11
<Burgundavia> thoughts, even
<LaserJock> looks good to me
<Burgundavia> hmm
<Burgundavia> that would mean a great deal fo little notes
<LaserJock> yeah
<Burgundavia> not my idea of great
<LaserJock> and people should be reading WikiGuide anyway, right? ;-)
<Burgundavia> ha
<Unfrgiven> alrighty all, ive gotta go... its time for ultimate frisbee!
<Unfrgiven> argh wrong window... sorry :P
<robotgeek> mdke: ping, another error 
<robotgeek> unrar-nonfree is replaced by unrar in dapper
<Madpilot> license change, or has the free one improved?
<robotgeek> no, the non-free one is called unrar
<robotgeek> http://packages.ubuntu.com/dapper/utils/unrar
<robotgeek> luckily, it won't change translation strings "P
<robotgeek> it changes one line, sorry
<Kamping_Kaiser> i remember there being discusion about the differences in the kde/gnome help viewers, but i dont remember how long ago it was. can anyone give me a rough idea? i'm hoping to look it up as i want to convert some docbook into whatever kde uses
<Madpilot> Kamping_Kaiser, I know the Kubuntu Desktop Guide is in DocBook in our repos, same as all the Ubuntu docs - no idea if it gets converted to anything before being packaged, though
<Kamping_Kaiser> ok. thanks Madpilot 
<Madpilot> robotgeek is our Kubuntu docs guy, though
* Kamping_Kaiser tortures robotgeek with the soft cusions untill he tells how it works
<Kamping_Kaiser> *sp
* robotgeek looks into kubuntu-docs source
<robotgeek> jjesse packages it for us :)
* Kamping_Kaiser gets bounced from geek to geek
<Madpilot> heh. we all do small bits, and somehow it mostly gets done - just don't ask any one person to describe the whole process :P
* robotgeek is taking a look at the rules fine
<robotgeek> file
<Burgundavia> Madpilot: does that sounder post mean you are actually going to go looking for a job outside the library?
<Burgundavia> tbh, Ubuntu does not currently appear on my resume, but Userful didn't ask for it
<Madpilot> Burgundavia, it means the Flying Club might have an opening in a month or so, and I need to update my resume...
<Burgundavia> very cool
<Burgundavia> what sort of job?
<Madpilot> dispatch/front desk
<Burgundavia> ah, cool
<Burgundavia> you might need to move out ther
<Madpilot> yeah - it'll be an evening shift at first, so no long morning commute - just a long evening one :P
<Burgundavia> there are a few web design firms in town looking for people
<Burgundavia> salut highvoltage
<Madpilot> hi robitaille 
<robitaille> Hi Madpilot 
<robitaille> so fed up of the library? 
<Madpilot> getting that way
<highvoltage> salut Burgundavia!
<highvoltage> how are things in doc-land?
<highvoltage> i've been meaning to ask, is ubuntu-doc responsible for xubuntu documentation as well?
<Madpilot> highvoltage, yes, there's the beginnings of the Xubuntu Desktop Guide in our repos
<highvoltage> nice.
<mdke> Kamping_Kaiser, kde uses html
<mdke> Kamping_Kaiser, we build it using xsltproc and some xsl stylesheets
<mdke> if you prefer, you can use meinproc, which uses some kde stylesheets (that is described on the kde docs website)
<mdke> robotgeek, dude! did you get that string change in before Riddell uploaded the package?
<mdke> robotgeek, I'm uploading the pot manually, just in case. Now, enough string changes already!!
<robotgeek> mdke: sorry, but i found a mistake
<mdke> yeah, i saw
* robotgeek promises not to look anymore
<mdke> :)
<mdke> it's fine, the fewer errors the better
<mdke> robitaille, you have to pay for mepis, mandrive, suse?
<mdke> i thought those were free
<robitaille> I think they all have a paid and free version.... but I'm pretty sure they are all in the same boat than Ubuntu.  If free, you don't have mp3 out of the box unless you go download it somewhere
<robitaille> but I could be totally wrong...
<jauroju> atleast opensuse doesn't include support for mp3 if i remember right
<gobbe> i think that all those free versions are lack of support for restricted things
<robitaille> that's what I thought as well.  But looking at the mepis web site just now, it's not clear that they don't ship without mp3..
<mvo> could someone from the doc team please have a look at  https://launchpad.net/bugs/40061 ?
<mvo> it is a xml problem apparently but my docbook skills are very limited
<mdke> looking
<mdke> mvo, ah, yes I know that error well. Where is the source?
<mvo> mdke: availalbe via bzr get http://people.ubuntu.com/~mvo/bzr/update-manager/update-manager--dapper
<mdke> mvo, I dunno bzr. If you want to fix it, just adjust the link to read /usr/share/gnome/libs/global.ent
<mdke> line 7 of the file
<mdke> oh shit.
<mdke> mvo, actually, it's going to be more complicated, that file is provided by ubuntu-docs
<mvo> so instead of "../../.." etc that is there now?
<mvo> a absolute path?
<mdke> no, no
<mdke> mvo, best thing is to remove the entity in line 7, and substitute &distro-rev; for 6.06 in line 56
<mdke> that way, we avoid gnome-app-install having to depend on ubuntu-docs :D
<mdke> mvo, clear?
<mvo> http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/12545
<mvo> like this?
<mdke> mvo, remove line 9 of that
<mdke> otherwise, that's right
<mdke> lemme check it works
<mvo> line 9 too? in addition to the current removal?
<mdke> mvo, yes, the text in line 9 of that pastebin need to go
<mdke> if you do that, it works
<mvo> http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/12546
<mdke> mvo, correct. I've tested, it works
<mvo> thanks :)
<mdke> np
<jjesse> any special permission to upload images for the wiki?
<mdke> nope
<jjesse> ok, working on getting screenshots for kubuntudapperbeta, is there a short guide on how to do it?
<jsgotangco> just upload it on the page your are editing
<robotgeek> jjesse: do you have kubuntu installed, or is this via vmware?
<robotgeek> wiki.ubuntu.com/TakingScreenshots
<jjesse> robotgeek: both :)
<jjesse> hmmm that doesn't really help me with uploading to the wiki
<robotgeek> jjesse: More Actions -> Attachements
<jjesse> robotgeek: thanks :)
<mdke> HelpOnActions has some docs, I think
<jjesse> thaanks mdke
<trappist> say, what are the the license problems with fop?  it looks to have an apache license.
<robotgeek> trappist: it uses java to make pdfs
<robotgeek> i am not sure if it works for gcj
<mdke> no, i don't think it does
<mdke> it didn't work for me with multiverse java, I had to use sun's
<trappist> so the license issue is indirect - you have to install sun java (as far as we can tell) to use it, but it's not encumbered on its own, right?
<mdke> i think that is probably right, although I didn't check the license
<trappist> http://xmlgraphics.apache.org/fop/license.html
<mdke> what's the apache licence, version 1.1 like?
<trappist> I dunno really, but apache 1.x was under it, and that was apparently free enough for the freedom freaks
<Kamping_Kaiser> did RMS say it was free? thats the big test ;)
<mdke> trappist, so, fop is fine then, I guess
<trappist> other projects like subversion and mod_gzip are under the apache licence, and it's OSI-approved
<trappist> mdke: far as I can tell
<trappist> just not (necessarily) useful without other software that may offend rms
<trappist> which I'm ok with doing, myself
<jjesse> mgalvin: that image for ubunut rocks, can i get a kubuntu beta one :)
<mdke> trappist, why do you ask by the way? got a plan for packaging it?
<trappist> maybe, now that you mention it, but we're facing the prospect here at work of converting xml/docbook to pdf and I was looking at options, and while I was staring at fop I noticed the license
<LaserJock> morning doc people!
<highvoltage> morning laserperson!
<mgalvin> jjesse: its the default GNOME ubuntu splash screen, i didn't make it...
<mgalvin> sudo apt-get install ubuntu-artwork
<mgalvin> its in
<mgalvin> /usr/share/pixmaps/splash/ubuntu-splash.png
<jjesse> mgalvin: oh, wonder if there is a kubuntu one?
<mgalvin> dunno :-/
<LaserJock> a kubuntu splash for GNOME?
<highvoltage> that's weird
#ubuntu-doc 2006-04-25
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-doc:Madpilot] : Ubuntu Documentation Team - general discussion - backlog at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs | Website http://doc.ubuntu.com | Get involved: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam | SVN - https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos | Please observe the Ubuntu community code of conduct @ http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct | Next meeting: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/MeetingAgenda |
<LaserJock> hi doc people
<robotgeek> hey LaserJock 
<robotgeek> "authors"
<LaserJock> hi robotgeek 
<kgoetz> do i ask questiosn about werid wiki work here? 'im asking about a page that does a stupid/odd redirect
<mdke> kgoetz, yes
<kgoetz> the page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NetworkPrintingFromWindows?action=show&redirect=NetworkPrintingFromUbuntu is the page in question - its supposed to be about printing *from ubuntu*, and redirects to a blank page about printing *from windows*
<kgoetz> after going through the redirect page there is nothing there (finaly worked out how to do that)
* kgoetz bangs his head on a wall
<rob> not a fan of web based contribution, mdke?
<mdke> rob, well, the docbook support and access control would have to be right. I think it's simply not worth the effort right now, as I said in my mail
<rob> yeah, those are two issues of though of at length
<rob> I think it is worth the effort of at least knowing what is available
<mdke> I agree with that, certainly
* mdke wonders whether without Alexander Jacob Tsykin, there would be no conflict or disagreement on sounder, and whether he does it on purpose
<jjesse> grin mdke wondered the smae thing sometimes :)
<jsgotangco> ?
<mdke> jjesse, he is always changing his arguments, just for the sake of prolonging discussions
<jsgotangco> i am lost here?
<mdke> jsgotangco, the sounder email list. there are a few people who really just troll the whole time and extend discussions longer than necessary
<jsgotangco> mdke: oh yeah
<jsgotangco> mdke: sounder threads that tend to go beyond 10 replies i just ignore heh
<mdke> quite right
<LaserJock> unfortunately I don't even subscribe to ubuntu-users or ubuntu-sounder, if I need something I go through the archives
<jjesse> anyone around that can help me attach a screenshot to a wiki page?
<jjesse> i should just have  attachment:adept-installer.png at the location i want that png correct?
<Burgwork> jjesse, you need to upload it to a wikipage, usually the one you are working on
<jjesse> throuhg the attachement?
<jjesse> section
<Burgwork> yep
<jjesse> and then what?
<jjesse> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KubuntuDapperBeta?action=AttachFile&do=view&target=adept-installer.png is what i get when i upload the image
<mdke> jjesse, attachment:filename, yeah. See HelpOnActions/AttachFile
<mdke_> Burgwork, ping
<Burgwork> mdke, pong
<mdke> Burgwork, wanted to chat quickly about BetterWikiDocs
<LaserJock> are we trying to get that approved at the next dev conference?
<Burgwork> sure, shoot
<mdke> LaserJock, maybe, maybe earlier :D
<mdke> I've been thinking about it recently and having a slight change of heart about the integration of official docs and wiki stuff.
<mdke> two things really
<mdke> first of all, I can't think of a way to host our chunked docs (more than one page per doc) in moin
<Burgwork> yep
<mdke> second, I feel that a separation of the two, while on the same website, would be positive for maintaining the reliability distinction between em
<mdke> so, something like help.u.c/ and help.u.c/wiki
<Burgwork> sure. The main thing I want is to seperate the wikis
<mdke> yes, absolutely
<mdke> how about this:
<Burgwork> integration of all docs might be a long term, with something like docudo
<Burgwork> we might want to define what BetterWikiDocs ISN't
<mdke> help.ubuntu.com/6.06 for our docs, help.ubuntu.com/6.06/community for the wiki docs
<Burgwork> sure, sounds good
<mdke> ok, I'm glad you have no problem with that
<LaserJock> so does that mean that the wiki will be release specific
<mdke> LaserJock, that would be something we need to think about.
<Burgwork> there maybe a way to do that, sanely
<mdke> my impression is that the wiki isn't well organised enough to do that
<Burgwork> not currently
<LaserJock> well, but if you have h.u.c/6.06/community then that implies a h.u.c/6.11/community or something
<mdke> in which case help.ubuntu.com/community might do. Burgwork, you got some ideas for reorganising?
<Burgwork> reorganizing which? the wiki docs?
<Burgwork> I see the reorg as tabs, one for each supported release
<mdke> yes, the release specific thing
<Burgwork> the basic url would point to the current release
<LaserJock> I like the idea of release specific wikis, people are always complaining about how wiki pages are written for releases they aren't using
<robotgeek> well, if we could cleanup the wiki to mark release specific stuff (CategoryBreezy , CategoryDapper, CatergoryUbuntu ) etc
<robotgeek> we could start off with UserDocumentation page
<Burgwork> I would rather move stuff off the main wiki and then do the split
<LaserJock> Burgwork: I agree
<mdke> ok, as long as there are no problems with the url, on the server side
<Burgwork> plus, dapper and breezy are not names we expose to the users
<LaserJock> categories might be helpful though
<Burgwork> recategorization post-move will be a big job, but useful
<mdke> yes, but we need to plan the categories carefully
<mdke> we might like to investigate the possibility of trying to implement some categories which are hidden from the user, that would be kewl
<LaserJock> can you have more than one category?
<LaserJock> per page
<robotgeek> LaserJock: yes
<Burgwork> pages can have as many as needed
<robotgeek> think tags 
<Burgwork> what would you do with hidden cats?
<LaserJock> so you could have something like: Category6.06 and CategoryMultimedia for some multimedia page for dapper
<Burgwork> ideally, the first should be part of the url
<mdke> LaserJock, yes, categories are simply searches for the word "CategoryWhatever" throughout the wiki
<LaserJock> Burgwork: I would think the idea would be to use the cats to organize the wiki, which wouldn't really be something the user is necessarily intersted in
<Burgwork> sorry, don't follow
<LaserJock> Burgwork: but it could also be Category6.06 Category6.11, etc. for pages that are used for multiple releases
<LaserJock> I guess maybe my moin ignorance is showing :-)
<Burgwork> then we have redirects
<Burgwork> I don't think we should have categories for the release number
<mdke> fair enough
<Burgwork> it shoudl rather be /6.06/blahpage
<Burgwork> and if 5.10 is the same, it would simply the same content as 6.06
<Burgwork> different views for the same page
<mdke> yes
<mdke> tricky to administer though
<mc44> Ive got a query about the the dapper beta doc on http://www.ubuntu.com/testing/dapperbeta - is this the right place to bring it up. Essentially its that the section directly below the KNown Bugs sections, and first of the list of new things about dapper, implies that there are no bugs in it
<mdke> mc44, yes, you can talk to mgalvin 
* mgalvin pokes his head in
<mdke> Burgwork, i've amended BetterWikiDocs accordingly, and will put that high on my list for chasing people up.
<mdke> it's definitely ready for approval, in my opinion
<Burgwork> mdke, sounds good. I am going to be away next week, with sporadic internet access
<mdke> Burgwork, in your view, who should be reviewing/approving that spec? I'd got Mark in mind
<mgalvin> mc44: its still beta and those are known lingering issues... but in general many bugs have been fixed...
<Burgwork> sure
<Burgwork> might want to pass it by the CC, privately
<mdke> Burgwork, ok
<Burgwork> they raised some objections last time
<mdke> yes, that makes sense. I think it is sufficiently convincing now to answer those
<mgalvin> although, your right, its a little odd to have them together... the known issues was added later on by another person... i need to work them together a bit better
#ubuntu-doc 2006-04-26
<jjesse> updated KubuntuDapperBeta any feedback?
<jjesse> mgalvin: can you look at KubuntuDapperBeta and give me feedback?
<mgalvin> jjesse: yea sure
<Burgwork> mdke, approved!
<mgalvin> jjesse: looks good... i like to use smaller images but thats just me, otherwise it looks good
<jjesse> mgalvin: i'll make it better as i go on, this is my first one with images
<jjesse> working on espresso right now
<jjesse> mgalvin: thanks for the review :)
<mgalvin> cool, np :)
<LaserJock> mgalvin: Screenshot 7: X-Chat GNOME Message Notification
<LaserJock> mgalvin: xchat-gnome isn't installed by default so should you have that there?
<LaserJock> mgalvin: and on http://www.ubuntu.com/testing/dapperbeta not all of the screenshots are showing up it seems
<mgalvin> LaserJock: i guess i could remove the xchat-gnome stuff... 
<LaserJock> I was just wondering
<LaserJock> not ordering ;-)
<crimsun> not to mention "coming" is misspelled
<mgalvin> the images are still hosted on my server and it is a "bit overworked" right now :-/
<mgalvin> i still have to fix a few things on that page
<LaserJock> mgalvin: especially since it is linked to distrowatch 
<crimsun> otherwise it's a really slick overviet
<crimsun> overview
<mgalvin> is it really?! crap...
<mgalvin> i didn't want it the public until the images were off my server, oh well
<LaserJock> that is how I found it
<mgalvin> i will fix it up now and move the images somewhere shortly
<mgalvin> thanks for pointing that stuff out guys
* mgalvin rushes to finish
<LaserJock> go mgalvin go!
<mgalvin> haha ;)
<LaserJock> the torrents seem to be nice and fast
<LaserJock> first time I've actually downloaded something with a torrent that gave any decent speed
<jjesse> for the beta?
<jjesse> i just downloaded  the live cd and it was really quick
<LaserJock> yeah, took me 13 min.
<LaserJock> usually torrents take me hours
<jjesse> torrents are blocked at work for me :(
<LaserJock> yeah, they usually are for me, but on OSX it works
<jjesse> that's interstesting that it works on one and not the other
<LaserJock> yeah, I'm not sure if it a port issue or what
<jjesse> dang it i hate all these kernel updates that force me to always reconfigure vmplayer :(
<mgalvin> my server is still being crushed but i used attached images where possible so more of them should show up :-/
<crimsun> I've always wondered why high-vol link sites don't default to coralcache
<mgalvin> i wish moin would support attachments acting as links to another attachments
<mgalvin> it doesn't which is why i have to do it this way :(
<darx> hi guys
<Madpilot> hi
<darx> does windows release the dhcp lease when it shuts down?
<darx> there seems to be some confusion
<darx> coz if you are on dual boot ubuntu seems to have trouble getting the lease
<darx> there is no doc regarding this
<Burgundavia> darx: neither windows nor ubuntu will release upon shutdown
<Burgundavia> salut Madpilotq1
<Burgundavia> Madpilot, even
<Burgundavia> Madpilot: can I send you a doc for a quick look?'
<darx> when i relese the lease manually before booting into ubuntu from windows, i don't get this problem
<darx> otherwise its a hit or miss issue
<Burgundavia> darx: it is a windows bug
<darx> whats the bug??
<frank23> when is the translation freeze for ubuntu docs for dapper?
<Burgundavia> frank23: a week before release
<frank23> Burgundavia: ok. thanks.
<darx> burgundavia: r u there?
<Burgundavia> darx: yep
<darx> what is the bug??
<Burgundavia> windows not releasing on shutdown
<darx> but you said that neither of them releases
<darx> so the bug is common
<Burgundavia> yes
<darx> ???????????
<darx> so its not a windows only bug is it??
<Burgundavia> there may also be a bug in your router, as leaes should be tied to the MAC addy, not the OS
<darx> it could be tied to the host name
<darx> i don't know the details but its a headache
<darx> theres no doc regarding this
<Madpilot> Burgundavia, go ahead
<darx> i've been lookin around the forums and the wiki
<darx> eventually i had to look elsewhere
<Burgundavia> Madpilot: going to send it to you now
<darx> this is an ubiquitos problem coz i've seen a lots of posts that could have had this very issue at its core
<darx> is it a bug or intentional?? and if so why coz its just a oneliner isn't it??
<Madpilot> Burgundavia, got it
<Burgundavia> Madpilot: cheers
<darx> Burgundavia: I hope u r not busy
<Madpilot> Burgundavia, looks like a good listing
<Madpilot> can I send it back to you with some edits?
<darx> Burgundavia: hellooooooo
<Burgundavia> Madpilot: yep
<Burgundavia> darx: in and out, packing for my trip
<Madpilot> already editing ;)
<darx> sorry
<Burgundavia> np
<darx> so can u answer my q?
<Madpilot> darx, please try #ubuntu for technical help, this isn't really a help channel - thanks
<darx> okies
<darx> thanks 
<Madpilot> Burgundavia, sent
<Burgundavia> Madpilot: cheers
<Burgundavia> Madpilot: if you need to edit something again, go to the edit menu, changes --> Record
<Burgundavia> Madpilot: anything else you think I should add?'
<Madpilot> Burgundavia, not really - nifty changes->record trick, thanks for that
<Burgundavia> that works on .doc files as well
<Madpilot> what's a .doc file? ;)
<Burgundavia> grumble, beta appears to have broken madwifi
<Burgundavia> false alarm
<Madpilot> dog, Gaim is ugly...
<Madpilot> the Dapper LiveCD runs nicely, though
<Burgundavia> back in a sec
<Madpilot> hi robotgeek
<robotgeek> hey Madpilot , had to reconnect due to lag
<robotgeek> muhahaha..installing java using EU on dapper ppc, sweet
<Madpilot> I'm running Dapper beta livecd, and suffering with gaim - I can't believe we're planning on inflicting this thing on newbies
<robotgeek> ekiga is tougher to run than xchat
<robotgeek> plus, it doesn't work (firewall crap)
<robotgeek> also kubuntu folks have openwengo
<Madpilot> yeah, ekiga looks tough - a friend is playing with it a bit
<robotgeek> the devs decided "if you are l33t enuf to use irc, use irssi"
<Madpilot> the devs have taken leave of their collective senses WRT IRC, I think... 
<robitaille> is that the actual quote?  I have never seen the actual discussion of that decision
<robotgeek> robitaille: no, i made it up
<robitaille> I always wonder who decided about it.  From what I see from meeting logs, it was suddently a done deal
<Madpilot> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-meta/+bug/38694
<Madpilot> which Matt closed, for some reason, before one of the devs answered...
<robitaille> yeah, I saw that bug report when it opened and I was hoping to see an "official" answer
<Madpilot> I'm sorely tempted to reopen that bug, actually
* robitaille is about to blog on planet.u.c about what doesn't work with Dapper Beta on my laptop
<Madpilot> right, I re-opened that bug...
<robotgeek> heh, let me subscribe :)
<Madpilot> you already are, I think
<Madpilot> same URL as above ^^^
<robotgeek> yup, i already am
<Madpilot> now we just have to stop Matt from closing it again ;)
<robotgeek> heh
<mdke_> it's been discussed some many times, I figured that there wasn't a lot of point leaving it open
<mdke_> course I will leave it, if you like
<mdke> woot!
<mdke> mark has approved BetterWikiDocs
<robotgeek> mdke: awesome! 
<Madpilot> cool! so when does the giant wiki-move start?
<mdke> we'll need some developers to help
<mdke> and a server, and such
<Madpilot> new server for help.u.c first, yes?
<rob> wow, very cool
<robotgeek> wiki licensing would also be cool :P
<rob> mdke, let me know if you need a hand setting it up, I've set up Moin and things a few times in the past
<mdke> yeah, I've been chasing up wiki licensing too
<mdke> rob, np, I don't think the server admins will let me loose on it. they know what they're doing with moin, they've got like 7 wikis already :D
<Madpilot> we never did settle the wiki license, did we? I know CC:PD was proposed...
<mdke> Madpilot, sure, it is settled, we just never implemented it
<rob> mdke, thats cool, feel free to pick my brain etc if you need it :)
<mdke> Madpilot, on xchat. I'll post you a mail from sabdfl about it
<mdke> It was removed because Gaim has support for IRC and we don't think the majority of users will be so enamoured with IRC that we want to keep two separate IRC clients in the default install. Xchat is much better for heavy IRC users, but those users are also perfectly capable of installing xchat themselves.
<Madpilot> sure - except that compared to XChat, gaim has fairly bad IRC support...
<mdke> yes, the developers are aware of that
<mdke> the fact is that irc is not considered a core feature
<rob> Gaim is horrible, but I can see the reasons behind it
<mdke> it's a chat network like any other
<mdke> the developers have simply disagreed with the statement in that bug report that "he IRC channels are an absolutely vital way of helping new users, and must be very easily accessible"
<Madpilot> it seems to run counter to the "do one thing well" ethos
<mdke> well, gaim does msn well, and msn is a lot more popular as a chat network
<rob> I wish Ubuntu had proper control of the forums, I'd use/recommend it much more if they did and the Gaim factor wouldn't be so bad
<Madpilot> yes, but if XChat-Gnome does IRC well, and gaim does it horribly... the logical conclusion does not seem to have been reached...
<rob> the forums is such a cesspool as it stands now
<mdke> rob, i disagree
<mdke> Madpilot, my point is that irc is not considered something that we need to provide to users by default.
<rob> mdke, :P you always do 
<mdke> not always, but I think you have a thing about the forums, and they aren't that bad at all
<rob> personal opinion is all, I've tried to like and use the forums and just can't stand it
<Madpilot> some of the subforums are just... strange... but the Absolute Beginner forums and other main ones aren't bad
<mdke> yeah, that's true
<Madpilot> web forums have a different feel to mailing lists - I prefer MLs, usually
<robotgeek> i tried doing support on forums, was too much work
<Kaiser_Sleeps> i havent been there for ages. waiting for pages to load drives me insane
<mdke> heh
<mdke> I like the forums, but I prefer mailing lists too
<Kaiser_Sleeps> probably a cultural thing  - i prefer to let email come to me for a reply, then go and search out a query on a forum ;)
* robotgeek has hilights on terms he is good with on irc
<robotgeek> like wireless, powerbook 
<mdke> clever
<robotgeek> too bad regexing it too much work
<robotgeek> night all, going to bed
<Kaiser_Sleeps> later mate
<Madpilot> back later, in Breezy with a sane IRC client ;)
<Kaiser_Sleeps> lol
<Sven_vB> hi
<Sven_vB> do i have to learn svn to translate parts of ubuntu?
<rob> no, just Rosetta I beleave
<rob> its a web based thing
<Sven_vB> ok. how can i submit my translated text? Launchpad says this project (About page) does not use Rosetta
<rob> Sven_vB, usually https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+translations
<rob> oh? maybe it isn't uploaded yet?
<rob> which language?
<Sven_vB> german
<rob> its there, under the ubuntu-docs package
<rob> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/dapper/+lang/de
<rob> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/dapper/+source/ubuntu-docs/+pots/about-ubuntu/de/+translate
<Sven_vB> thx. it seems like i did not mean the about page.
<Sven_vB> what is the document being loaded when i start "System">"About Ubuntu" from the panel?
<rob> oh, isn't that something else?
<Sven_vB> yes, apparently
<jsgotangco> Sven_vB: it should be the About Ubuntu document
<jsgotangco> http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/about-ubuntu/C/index.html
<Sven_vB> thx
<jsgotangco> (but not in html btw)
<rob> eek, I think the licences have made it back into Rosetta again..
<Sven_vB> no, it's not similar to the help doc i was reading :|
<Sven_vB> can yelp tell me which document i am reading?
<rob> mdke, when you are around ^
<rob> Sven_vB, are you on Dapper?
<Sven_vB> rob: no
<jsgotangco> breezy?
<rob> thats probably why :)
<Sven_vB> hoary atm, i'm upgrading to breezy
<jsgotangco> meh
<jsgotangco> that's a pretty old document
<Sven_vB> =)
<jsgotangco> Sven_vB: unfortunately, we don't have those on preview now
<jsgotangco> but we can dig through our 2900+ revisions in svn
<jsgotangco> :)
<Sven_vB> i'll wait for the update to finish and check it again
<rob> hmm, maybe its not as bad as I first thought upon further investigation
<rob> Sven_vB, the one you see in Rosetta will be the one for Dapper
<jsgotangco> yeah
<Sven_vB> should i upgrade to dapper in order to help with translation?
<jsgotangco> Sven_vB: you don't need to, Rosetta shows you the english strings that can be translated
<jsgotangco> the link i posted earlier is also the actual preview document
<mdke> rob, url please
<Sven_vB> yeah, but this way i'll discover untranslated parts or mistakes only when i'm logged into Rosetta
<rob> mdke, I first suspected it when I saw the bottom of this: https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/dapper/+source/ubuntu-docs/+pots/about-ubuntu/en_GB/+translate?alt=en&offset=20
<jsgotangco> mdke: can you fix bug 40492?
<rob> but isn't all that stuff unchanged from Breezy?
<rob> (anyway)
<mdke> jsgotangco, I wanna think about whether it is worth a string change
<Sven_vB> i prefer using ubuntu, seeing "hey, this could be translated better" and then submit my translation
<mdke> rob, that's not the licence, it is just the articleinfo stuff
<jsgotangco> mdke: Open As Administrator is different from Open as Root, its one small string, we can still upload,
<rob> mdke, yeah so I realized :)
<mdke> jsgotangco, the whole para needs to be retranslated, not just the filename, lemme take a look
<mdke> oh yeah, it's not very long
<mdke> let's fix it
<Sven_vB> how can i ensure that my ubuntu always uses the latest versions of the translated docs? can i configure it to use the stable version of apps, but the developers version of the translations?
<mdke> Sven_vB, no. You just have to keep upgraded
<Sven_vB> #)
<Sven_vB> kk
<mdke> I'll upload some translations this weekend
<Sven_vB> cya
<mdke> trappist, new hotness in trunk please
<trappist> bleh, I thought that *was* trunk
<trappist> err wait, no I didn't
<trappist> ok
<LaserJock> mdke: ok, so I looked at the xreflabel thing in the packaging guide
<LaserJock> mdke: if we leave "pbuilder" and "chroot" then I'm pretty sure we can remove the rest without string changes
<mdke> sounds good
<LaserJock> k
<LaserJock> actually, now that Edgy has been announced I should make the substitutions in the Packaging Guide
<LaserJock> I'll also do the xreflabel changes at the same time
<mdke> good man
<LaserJock> neato, security guide
<jsgotangco> ?
<LaserJock> I see something in u-d-c
<jsgotangco> ah yes
<jsgotangco> good luck on whoever wrote that :)
<LaserJock> not me that's for sure. I am a good use case for why there needs to be a security guide ;-)
<jsgotangco> i use a lot of security at work, but im not comfortable being an authority on it though
<jsgotangco> heh
<LaserJock> I know virtually nothing about security and I'm luck that I'm behind a good server at the uni
<jsgotangco> heh
<jsgotangco> gotta sleep
<jsgotangco> ciao
<LaserJock> cya jsgotangco 
<WaterSevenUb> while translating detected: C/config-system.xml:712(para) - desktop guide - You can now use your key combination to switch between keyboard *laouts*
<mdke> thanks
<trappist> <3 translators
<mdke> fixed
<trappist> say.  could somebody approve me for the launchpad group?
<WaterSevenUb> thank you.
* LaserJock swings his desk light over toward trappist
<LaserJock> hmmmm
<LaserJock> :-)
* trappist sweats nervously in the glare
<mdke> done
<trappist> cool, thanks :)
* LaserJock swings his desk light back. "darn, back to work"
* trappist updates his resume
<LaserJock> oh, that reminds me
<trappist> my hackergotchi sucks.  because my gimp-foo sucks.
<LaserJock> I've got to prepare a little speech. I'm running for a position in the newly created Chemistry Grad Student Association ;-)
<LaserJock> trappist: you're a member of the Utah LocoTeam?
<trappist> open up with the "little johnny was a chemist" bit
<LaserJock> heh, yeah
<trappist> oh is that what the UT part meant?
<trappist> doh
<LaserJock> ummm, yeah
<trappist> not anymore... not sure why I was on there
<LaserJock> trappist: man, you've got some serious karma going on. I just can't get up there
<trappist> I've been to utah once, but that probably doesn't count
<LaserJock> I'm in a state neighboring Utah
<trappist> LaserJock: I spend a lot of time on bugs.  reporting, triaging, commenting, etc.
<trappist> occasionally writing patches
<LaserJock> yeah, I'm a doc writer and MOTU but apparently I'm just not that active ;-)
<trappist> LaserJock: aren't you a motu?  I figured you'd get mad karma from uploading packages
<LaserJock> trappist: actually, I don't think we get karma for uploads
<LaserJock> yet
<trappist> yeah I think karma needs some work.  it's not aware of enough stuff to be a very good reflection of the amount of contribution somebody makes.
<trappist> we need a post-commit hook in svn to talk to karma :)
<LaserJock> yeah, that might be nice, and substract off reversions
<trappist> we also *cough* still need a trac site
<mdke> trappist, faq.xml doesn't validate btw
<mdke> I'm already hanckering to read your guide :)
<trappist> fixed faq.xml
<trappist> mdke: I've been hankering to write it for a while :)
<trappist> especially the faq and the firewall section
<trappist> SO many very-frequently-asked and usually-poorly-answered security questions
<WaterSevenUb> May I ask you something? Something in the desktop guide is not making sense to me: C/common-tasks.xml:299(para)
<WaterSevenUb> "This device is configured " button... shouldn't it be Checkbox "Enable this connection" ?
<trappist> WaterSevenUb: it looks like you're correct
<trappist> but that's the first time I've ever seen network-admin, so maybe somebody else can verify?
<mdke> lemme look
<mdke> yes
<mdke> WaterSevenUb, thanks again
<WaterSevenUb> you're welcome
<mdke> LaserJock, yo?
<LaserJock> mdke: yeah?
<mdke> LaserJock, sorry, have sorted it
<LaserJock> mdke: did I mess something up? :-)
<mdke> no, I needed help with something, but have resolved
<LaserJock> ah, well as long as I haven't screwed up the documentation or Universe ;-)
<LaserJock> my two goals in life
<LaserJock> hi Burgundavia and jjesse 
<Burgundavia> salut LaserJock
<mdke> hello y'all
<jjesse> hello
<Burgundavia> mdke: now that we have won sabdfl, we are set
<Burgundavia> mdke: btw, I am going to be out of town for a week, with sporatic internet access
<mdke> Burgundavia, yeah, I'm pleased too
<mdke> Burgundavia, don't worry about not being around. I'll try and chase up mark for a developer, and elmo for the server
<Burgundavia> ok
<LaserJock> so in the end, will there be any user documentation on wiki.u.c?
<Burgundavia> no
<LaserJock> do you think we could get this implemented by Dapper release?
<mdke> maybe
<LaserJock> that would be cool to roll it out with the release
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> Burgundavia, we won't be able to change any of the links to the wiki in the official docs
<Burgundavia> yes, but we can do redirects/links
<Burgundavia> we will not be able to remove any of the documentation pages in the wiki either
<mdke> sure, as planned in the spec.
<mdke> shame though
<LaserJock> won't we eventually?
<mdke> LaserJock, for the next release
<Burgundavia> by eft we will be able to remove most of the non-high trafficed ones, leaving behind things like rootsudo and the like
<mdke> yes
<mdke> *that* is going to be a large commit email
<LaserJock> mdke: I hopefully made my last commit to the dapper branch
<mdke> LaserJock, ooh rock
<mdke> mine was so large, it didn't get through :/
* mdke tries again
<mdke> that's better
* mdke looks despairingly at the validation errors in the korean packaging guide
<ompaul> is there a guide for someone doing server stuff enabling networking? 
<mdke> ompaul, yes. http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/serverguide/C/index.html
<ompaul> mdke, once again thanks :)
<mdke> network-configuration.html
<ompaul> now to feed that into ubotu
<mdke> ompaul, don't do that
<mdke> that's a work in progress guide aimed at dapper
<ompaul> hmm
<ompaul> we need something
<mdke> well, stable-ish, but the url won't stay like that
<ompaul> okay I'll cull it
<mdke> ompaul, here you are: http://help.ubuntu.com/6.06/ubuntu/serverguide/C/networking.html#network-configuration
<mdke> oh shit, that will change too
<mdke> ompaul, here you are: http://help.ubuntu.com/6.06/ubuntu/serverguide/C/index.html <-- will stay the same
<ompaul> okay
<mdke> robotgeek, ping?
<WaterSevenUb> sorry, other question about desktop guide: C/add-applications.xml:48(para) - "<application>Add Programs</application>" wouldn't be better "<application>Add/Remove Applications</application>"?
<mdke> I'm not sure
<mdke> WaterSevenUb, listen, can you pass a message to the pt_BR team for me?
<WaterSevenUb> mdke, I can :-) but I'm from pt (PT) team. But I can contact Og Maciel from pt_BR.
<mdke> oh, right
<mdke> np, I'll tell him
<WaterSevenUb> (in any case, the application itself in dapper is called "Add/Remove Applications" not just "Add Programs", that was my point.)
<mdke> yeah, I got your point
<mdke> WaterSevenUb, thanks, fixed
<mdke> enrico, ping?
<mdke> LaserJock, any idea how hard it would be to upgrade ubuntu-docs to compat=5 (someone said that it will support comments in debian/install if we do that, and it would help a lot because that file is going to get VERY complicated when the translations arrive
#ubuntu-doc 2006-04-27
<LaserJock> mdke: well, it is really easy to *do* it but I'm not  sure if there are any items that might cause problems
<LaserJock> mdke: it should be no problem
<mdke> LaserJock, would you take a look? the packaging has all gone a little bit funky today after Ian did his homepage hacks
<LaserJock> mdke: what happened?
<mdke> he did some crazy hacking to make the translated homepages work with ubuntu-docs, kubuntu-docs, xubuntu-docs and so on
<LaserJock> mdke: so now you just want to get to compat 5 so you can put in comments?
<mdke> well, i need to include all the translations in debian/install and there are going to be lots of stuff
<LaserJock> yikes, that is a lot
<mdke> yeah, my commit message got caught in the mailing list filter ;)
<mdke> s/message/messages
<LaserJock> ok, I checked the changelog of debhelper and it says version 5 should work 99.999% without needing modifications ;-)
<mdke> that sounds positive
<mdke> you think we should ask Ian if his changes will be affected?
<LaserJock> let me check his changes real quick, I seriously doubt it would affect anything
<mdke> trappist, ping
<mdke> LaserJock, your advice on something. It occurred to me that we've save space in the packages if we move desktopguide/C/sample to desktopguide/sample and amend the links. That way, the sample stuff doesn't get shipped with each language for the UDG, KDG and SG. Thoughts?
<LaserJock> hmm, let me think about that
<LaserJock> mdke: unless you want the comments in the samples translated (I don't think we do) I would move them
<LaserJock> mdke: trying to make common elements common is a worthy goal, I think
<mdke> yeah, we don't translate those files
<mdke> ok, I'm doing it
<LaserJock> mdke: I don't think anything Ian did would be changed by changing the compat version, he didn't make an debhelper calls even
<LaserJock> mdke: any in Debian 5 is recommended
<mdke> LaserJock, cool, shall we do it?
<LaserJock> yes :-)
<LaserJock> just don't kick me out if I'm wrong
<LaserJock> mdke: I can do the conversion if you want to add the comments etc.
<mdke> LaserJock, ok. Can you build a quick test package before committing, just in case?
<LaserJock> sure, sort quick ;-)
<mdke> rock
<LaserJock> sorta quick ,I mean
* mdke searches for some relaxing music before he goes mad
<LaserJock> heh, I'm trying to get home so I can install Beta
<mdke> LaserJock, don't worry about doing the compat thing now then, it's not mega urgent
<LaserJock> heh, but it's fun ;-)
<mdke> :)
<LaserJock> it's not every day I get to work on a Main package
<LaserJock> mdke: hmmm, my package didn't build, but I dont' think it is from my changes
<mdke> error?
<crimsun> woo, fixed #34831!
<LaserJock> cp: cannot stat `./ubuntu/browser-startpage/index-lt.html': No such file or directory
<mdke> LaserJock, ok, i'll fix thanks
<LaserJock> what no ubugtu in here? :-)
<crimsun> d'oh, ECHANNEL
<LaserJock> mdke: so are you having to commit Ian's changes?
<mdke> LaserJock, I think I did so. Listen, are you sure you're up to date? that file is present for me
<LaserJock> mdke: oh, maybe not if you committ recently. I should have checked that first, doh
<LaserJock> I've got too many machines and checkouts
<robotgeek> mdke: pong
<mdke> robotgeek, np, was about moving sample/ up a directory to avoid duplicating it for translations. I've gone ahead and done it, hope you approve
<robotgeek> mdke: no problem, will it break links that i have to take care of, or do we handle that later
<mdke> I fixed the links, but it may cause some problems with the annoying kubuntu-docs system
<mdke> i'll talk to riddell
* robotgeek goes to fix the xrefs, finally
<mdke> robotgeek, lemme upload then, hang on
<mdke> done
<robotgeek> mdke: okay, hopefully i'll be done with the xrefs today
<LaserJock> mdke: did you do something with ubuntu/desktopguide/C/db/*
<mdke> yes, I removed it from debian/install and took it out of the builds
<mdke> that might only be in my very last commit
<enrico> mdke: hi
<mdke> enrico, ciao. some of my commit mails got caught in the ETOOBIG mailman filter. How big are they? not sure if it's worth approving them or not
* robotgeek spoke to Og Maciel just now :)
<mdke> mm?
<mdke> on the phone, in person?
<robotgeek> on the phone, we might be going to the Trenton COmputing Festival tommorow
<mdke> ah, cool
<mdke> LaserJock, oh crap. It's not building, i need to change the makefile a sec
<LaserJock> heh
<LaserJock> mdke: I was just about to tell you that ;-)
<mdke> LaserJock, ok, works now. Sorry!
<enrico> mdke: I'll have a look (provided I still have the password)
<LaserJock> mdke: thank goodness for bash history ;-)
<mdke> enrico, thanks
<robotgeek> mdke: i am not updating the translations, as nothing would have changed, except line numbers?
<mdke> robotgeek, no, don't update any translations. We'll redo them all later and they will fall into line with the English
<LaserJock> robotgeek: awww, I'm sure the translators would appreciate the karma ;-)
<robotgeek> mdke: cool, i'll just go ahead and commit then
<mdke> thanks
<enrico> mdke: are you sure?
<enrico> mdke: I don't see your mail queued in ubuntu-doc-commits
<enrico> (unless someone else moderated them in before I logged in)
<mdke> enrico, ah. I am not sure because I just assumed they'd be there. Maybe they were auto-discarded. What's the policy on very large emails?
<mdke> robotgeek, rock, thanks
<enrico> mdke: no limit, it seems
<robotgeek> mdke: also checked aboutkubuntu and release notes, no xreflabels tehre
<LaserJock> mdke: ok, the package built. is there any way to test it?
<enrico> "Maximum length in kilobytes (KB) of a message body. Use 0 for no limit. ": 0
<enrico> (for ubuntu-doc-commits)
<mdke> enrico, *shrug*. I did two massive commits uploads translations and the mails didn't come through. See the gap between r2922 and r2925 at https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc-commits/2006-April/thread.html
<mdke> no big deal though
<mdke> you probably want to go to sleep ;)
<LaserJock> mdke: is there anything in particular I should test?
<mdke> LaserJock, yelp, /usr/share/ubuntu-docs/html in a browser, and /usr/share/ubuntu-artwork/home/ in a browser
<mdke> LaserJock, see that?
<LaserJock> yep
<mdke> just give em the once over
* robotgeek sees flurry of commit activity :)
<LaserJock> the doc team rocks!
<mdke> yeah, we do
<LaserJock> pumping out documentation at the speed of the internet ;-)
<enrico> mdke: maybe they've been filtered out somewhere else
<enrico> mdke: in the worse possible case, they're still being dispatched and there'll be a huge mail bombing coming :)
<mdke> enrico, could be. no worries!
<mdke> enrico, grazie come sempre della disponibilita' :D
<enrico> mdke: di nulla
<enrico> faccio quello che posso (che solitamente non  abbastanza :-/ )
<LaserJock> mdke: heh, everything looks ok. I even saw the starterpage in French ;-)
<mdke> LaserJock, cool
<mdke> enrico, you'd be happy with the team, it is really rocking nowadays
<LaserJock> mdke: I'll  commit the changes I made to get to compat 5
* enrico likes rocking teams always, anytime
<mdke> thanks, I'm gonna do a changelog entry I think to explain what the hell has been going
<mdke> (on)
* enrico loves rocking teams
<enrico> actually
<mdke> enrico, where do you live nowadays?
<LaserJock> mdke: heh, yeah. so just mention you moved to debhelper 5 to get comments or whatever
<enrico> it's a great time for the docteam to be rocking: dapper's a big thing, and the extra time for polishing is the greatest moment for a rocking docteam to really show off
<enrico> mdke: at the moment, in Manchester.  Monday I'll go back to Italy
<enrico> mdke: now that I think of it, you're in the uk?
<mdke> yes, Londra
<enrico> mdke: ok, a bit far away
<mdke> yeah :)
<mdke> LaserJock, will do
<enrico> (considering train prices, it's further away than Sidney)
<mdke> haha
* enrico goes to bed
<enrico> 'night everyone!
<mdke> notte
<mdke> thanks
<LaserJock> mdke: bombs away
<mdke> LaserJock, yay, thanks
<LaserJock> mdke: and with that I think I'll head home.
<LaserJock> I'll probably be on a bit latter if you need anything more
<LaserJock> but you probably need to go to bed or something
<mdke> i ought to
<mdke> thanks for your help!
* robotgeek is planning trips
<LaserJock> np
<Madpilot> evening all
<mdke> evening Madpilot 
<Madpilot> greetings from Xubuntu ;)
<mdke> cool
<Madpilot> I'm trying out the Dapper Beta LiveCD
<mdke> ultra cool
<Madpilot> it's nice, feels (on ten minutes use) very much like "Gnome Lite"
<mdke> i need to try it out
<mdke> do you know how to use sed?
<Madpilot> nope
<mdke> Madpilot, betterwikidocs has been approved by Mark
<Madpilot> yes, you mentioned that last night - good to hear
<mdke> oh, wasn't sure whether you were around
<Madpilot> any idea of a timeline?
<mdke> not yet
<Madpilot> hopefully in time for Dapper+1, anyway
<mdke> or even Dapper+0
<mdke> rock
* mdke finally gets the damn translations working
<LaserJock> yeah, I saw that the packaging guide is completely transltated into swedish
<mdke> pretty cool huh
<LaserJock> totally
<rob> mdke, did you hear back from Jane about Lulu?
<mdke> rob, no, I'll chase her at some stage
<rob> cool, sounds good
<mdke> might have got lost in her filters
<rob> the WikiLicensing spec has some good points, Mediawiki makes it really clear what licenses the work is submitted under (part of the initial configuration is choosing one), perhaps something modeled of that (an icon depicting the license used with a short blurb)?
<mdke> that should be covered in the spec
<arekmenner> So...
<arekmenner> How 'bout that DocBook, eh?
<mdke> it's good isn't it?
<arekmenner> Wouldn't know, just now learning.
<arekmenner> Figured I'd give you fellows another hand.
<mdke> arekmenner, welcome aboard
<Madpilot> arekmenner: cool
<mdke> have you seen our various wiki pages?
<arekmenner> Yeah, I'm thumbing through them at the moment.
<LaserJock> cool
<mdke> arekmenner, what are you interested in helping with, do you know?
<arekmenner> Hahah, not at the moment.
<arekmenner> I'm just getting to be a better programmer, so I figured I'd do something while I'm getting to the point when I could help ubuntu.
<Madpilot> mdke: is the Xubuntu Desktop Guide on the web anywhere?
<arekmenner> Thus, I decided DocTeam might be a good place to simmer.
<mdke> Madpilot, don't think so
<arekmenner> Ooh, xubuntu.
<mdke> arekmenner, which flavour of Ubuntu do you use?
<arekmenner> At the moment, xubuntu.
<LaserJock> arekmenner: what languages do you know?
<arekmenner> LaserJock: Python, C++/C, and PHP
<LaserJock> cool
<arekmenner> I'm not terribly fluent in any of them, really.
<arekmenner> Which is what I'm working on.
<LaserJock> heh, I'm just trying to learn Python
<arekmenner> Like I said, though, I felt like doing something.
<arekmenner> Oh, it's great.
<arekmenner> So simple, and it makes so much sense.
<Madpilot> that's three more languages than I know - programming is not one of my strengths ;)
<arekmenner> ^-^
<LaserJock> if I get a handle on it and Fortran my programming will probably be all for me
<arekmenner> So, let's see...
<arekmenner> I'm running xubuntu on a laptop
<LaserJock> umm, that last part didn't make much sense :/
<arekmenner> I'm on the same robotics team as jdong.
<arekmenner> That's where I got into it.
<arekmenner> He's a crazy fellow.
<arekmenner> I'm going to get my desktop dual booting pretty soon.
<arekmenner> Just as soon as I figure out how to resize my hard drive.
<arekmenner> It's a 250 GB on an old box.
<crimsun> don't worry, I'm capable of parsing far less intelligible sentences, lj ;)
<arekmenner> So it only sees 130 of the gigs ;_;
<crimsun> that's a bios limitation, arekmenner 
<Madpilot> arekmenner: I just helped a friend put a 250Gb in an old box, AFAIK it sees the entire thing (in Ubuntu, anyway)
<mdke> arekmenner, nice, you might wanna help out on the xubuntu guide, which is being worked on kinda at the last minute
<crimsun> either the bios needs to be updated, or you need to install a newer controller card with a newer firmware
<arekmenner> crimsun: I'm hoping it isn't the latter.
<rob> what version of xfce4 is xubuntu running?
<arekmenner> This is the last computer part I'll get in a while.
<crimsun> rob: 4.4beta1
<Madpilot> version 4.3.90.1 in Dapper Beta, apparently
<arekmenner> I'm running dapper beta.
<arekmenner> Any good way for me to figure that out?
* Madpilot is running the Xubuntu Dapper Beta LiveCD right now...
<arekmenner> My laptop's just over here.
<crimsun> 4.3.90.1 is 4.4 beta 1
<rob> ooh, when did that come out, I'm running 4.3.80.1 :)
<arekmenner> Playing Fooly Cooly at the moment... why is that still on...
<Madpilot> arekmenner: in Xubuntu? Applications menu -> About XFCE
<crimsun> rob: last week
* rob goes and updates
<arekmenner> Xfce Desktop Environment version 4.3.90.1 (Xfce 4.3 UNSTABLE)
<arekmenner> So I hear xubuntu just released a LiveCD.
<rob> Xfce 4.3.90.1 here
<rob> hmm
<arekmenner> Very exciting. It might just be the new DSL ^-^
<crimsun> it's a bit "fatter" than dsl
<arekmenner> (nods)
<crimsun> (to be expected, since it includes more)
<arekmenner> But DSL's been getting bigger, too.
<rob> hmm..
* rob updates
<arekmenner> Anybody know of any good graphical IRC clients for Xfce?
<arekmenner> (I know this isn't the place to put stuff like this in the future, but I'm just quickly doing something)
<crimsun> good is of course an individual preference
<arekmenner> Hahah
<Madpilot> it's got gaim by default, but you asked for a good IRC client... IMO gaim doesn't qualify...
<arekmenner> I'd have to agree.
<arekmenner> Irssi is good, but I'm in 3 channels here.
<Madpilot> it does work, at least...
<arekmenner> And I'd like to keep tabs on 'em.
<mdke> arekmenner, can't you can keep tabs on them with irssi?
<mdke> oh, not audibly
<arekmenner> Well, that's not really the problem.
<rob> arekmenner, I just use Xchat, gtk and all
<rob> heavily modified xchat though :)
<mdke> i like irssi
<arekmenner> Oh, silly me, forgot to dhclient
<arekmenner> Hm...
<arekmenner> Sudo's really giving me some troubles.
<crimsun> well-- I've found no client beside irssi that can actually handle all the networks and channels I'm in
<crimsun> it's not uncommon for me to join upwards of 60
* arekmenner nods.
<mdke> LaserJock, oy
<crimsun> managing miniscule tabs in xchat*, konversation, et al, is just impossible
<arekmenner> Oh my...
<arekmenner> This isn't good.
<rob> crimsun, tried treeview in xchat? I get lost in irssi after I join 50+ channels
<crimsun> rob: yeah, but I don't prefer it
<arekmenner> Er...
<arekmenner> Again with the stupid tech questions..
<arekmenner> Sudo doesn't like me anymore.
<arekmenner> Wait...
<mdke> arekmenner, you'll get better support in #ubuntu
<arekmenner> Lemme check to make sure I'm a sudoer.
<rob> I do have a whole virtual desktop dedicated to xchat windows though
<arekmenner> mdke: I'm aware, I'm just thinking out lout. Sorry ^-^
<Madpilot> arekmenner: if you're logged in as the first user - the one created during install - then you should have sudo rights
* rob added a "Quick Kline" command to his xchat last night :)
<mdke> LaserJock, unping actually.
<mdke> night all
<rob> Right click on nick -> Kline :)
<arekmenner> Madpilot: I just realized I'm not, we had an rsync party earlier, and everything's funky.
<Madpilot> rob the bots were that bad?
<rob> sometimes yes
<Madpilot> night mdke
<rob> my whois puts the ips/hosts in their own window too for easy access when klining ;)
<arekmenner> So what all does the Doc Team document?
<Madpilot> arekmenner: lots of things - have a look on the righthand side of doc.ubuntu.com for some of our stuff
<LaserJock> mdke: ping, unping, jeeze ;p
<mdke> LaserJock, ping
<LaserJock> heh, pong
<mdke> just ribbin ya. If you have a loose end, do you fancy doing some more ubuntu-docs stuff?
<LaserJock> shoot
<mdke> LaserJock, we need to add the translations to debian/install
<mdke> I've done desktopguide and about-ubuntu
<mdke> I'll just upload that
<LaserJock> so do you want me to do other docs?
<mdke> do you fancy doing the PG? maybe even the SG if you are enjoying it?
<mdke> it's not fun
<mdke> (uploaded)
<LaserJock> k, I'll see what I can do. TZ tag team, we are good ;-)
<arekmenner> back in a flash
<mdke> LaserJock, I've organised the file a bug with comments and white spaces, it should be pretty clear what's up
<mdke> btw, aren't there other files that should be in the package from the PG?
<arekmenner> Er...
<arekmenner> This is a little overwhelming.
<LaserJock> mdke: like what?
<Madpilot> arekmenner: what is?
<arekmenner> I'm on two irc channels, and irssi is just overlapping them.
<mdke> LaserJock, files/ and images/
<arekmenner> Any tips on that?
<Madpilot> arekmenner: awful as Gaim is, at least it's got a GUI with tabs for channels in IRC...
<arekmenner> Hahah
<arekmenner> Agreed.
<LaserJock> mdke: yeah, files/ is used, images/ is not but it only has 1 image
<mdke> not used?
<mdke> kill!
<LaserJock> sure
<Madpilot> back later, all
<mdke> and we need to install files/
<LaserJock> mdke: so files/ is not included?
<mdke> LaserJock, no, i don't see it in debian/install
<mdke> and the link is broken
* mdke found the link using the all new hot yelp search
<LaserJock> mdke: :(
<arekmenner> Ah.
<arekmenner> At least I have windows now.
<LaserJock> mdke: I'll fix it then
<mdke> LaserJock, it's a one liner though, no biggie
<arekmenner> Rather, tabs.
<LaserJock> mdke: ok, I'll try to get as far as I can, you can go to bed ;-)
<mdke> okay, thanks
<LaserJock> np
* mdke tags out
* LaserJock enters the ring
<arekmenner> Ah.
<arekmenner> Home sweet XChat.
<arekmenner> So do we have a place on launchpad for error reports?
<arekmenner> For documentation, that is.
<arekmenner> Welcome back.
<Burgundavia> ah, glorious free wireless
* Burgundavia is on the road
<Madpilot> Burgundavia, in Seattle?
<Burgundavia> yep
<Madpilot> good boat trip down?
<Burgundavia> pretty smooth
<Burgundavia> got a window seat
<Madpilot> nice
<Madpilot> got any time in Seattle tomorrow before you fly out?
<Burgundavia> nope, I fly out at 640
<Madpilot> 0640? Erk. Hope you can get a wakeup call from the desk. Or several. :)
<Burgundavia> I do on the way back
<LaserJock> umm, yikes. Is there any espresso (or ubiquity) documentation?
<LaserJock> I'm struggling with the partioning
<Madpilot> worse than the old text installer's partitioning? (which wasn't bad, actually)
<Burgundavia> the partitioner in ubiquity sucks
<Madpilot> what is ubiquity?
<Burgundavia> however, it is good for the standard use case
<Burgundavia> espresso is not ubiquity
<Burgundavia> s/not/now
<Madpilot> ah
<Madpilot> missed that
<Madpilot> if you needed /boot, /, ~ & swap, how's ubiquity for setups like that?
<Burgundavia> slightly counter intuitive
<Burgundavia> hmm, my install went very badly
<Madpilot> huh. I got very used to doing that setup with the Breezy installer - I think we did five installs on Clive's machine before the final one ;)
<Burgundavia> there are lots of little bugs that I think are a symtom of that
<LaserJock> I was going to tring to do LVM and there are no options
<Burgundavia> yes, ubiquity handles the basic cases well, but hte more advanced cases badly
<Burgundavia> as wehreas the text installer handles all soso
<LaserJock> well, :(
<LaserJock> I don't want to download the install .iso , I'll just make due
<froggypinkle> hello
<gaz00> hi
<froggypinkle> do you think you could help me with my printer issue
<Burgundavia> froggypinkle: please try #ubuntu
<Burgundavia> this is not a help channel, this channel for chatting about documentation
<froggypinkle> I have nobody talks back there
<Burgundavia> have you tried the forums?
<Madpilot> froggypinkle, just ask your question in #ubuntu, someone will probably answer
<froggypinkle> yep and aparently its just supposed to work 
<Burgundavia> froggypinkle: I would file a bug then
<Burgundavia> froggypinkle: we are sorry, but we cannot help you here
<Madpilot> gah - what's the URL for the list of Ubuntu mailing lists?
<Burgundavia> lists.ubuntu.com
<Madpilot> thanks, just found it :P
<gaz00> http://www.ubuntu.com/community/lists
<gaz00> Oooh..lists.ubuntu.com is even better
<Burgundavia>  /community likely needs to be updated
<gaz00> why isn't that linked off ubuntu.com?
<gaz00> ;)
<Burgundavia> because the website needs an overhaul
<Madpilot> Burgundavia, something for you to do during your flight tomorrow!
<Burgundavia> heh
<Burgundavia> I intend to sleep
<gaz00> multi-task.
<Madpilot> after drinking all night? ;) (you are legal in Yankeeland now, right?)
<LaserJock> grrrr, ubiquity partitioning is making me not so happy
<Burgundavia> anyway, night 
<Burgundavia> I might not have internet tomorrow, being in a town of 5k in OK
<LaserJock> mdke: unfortunately I wasn't able to work on ubuntu-docs. I was trying to revive my Ubuntu box but espresso is not behaving well, I will look at it tomorrow if you don't get to it first
<Madpilot> hi jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> hi Madpilot long time no chat
<Madpilot> yeah. how've you been?
<jsgotangco> pretty busy in real life  but still active in ubuntu on other fields
<Madpilot> cool. I've been playing with Dapper Beta LiveCDs - finally tried out Xubuntu
<jsgotangco> oh do you like it?
<jsgotangco> i've used the first xubuntu iso from flight6
<jsgotangco> i expected a smaller install though
<robitaille> Xubuntu reminds me so much of my old window manager I had in unix in the mid-90s :)
<Madpilot> I do, actually. "gnome lite"
<jsgotangco> did the beta retain the spinning mouse?:
<Madpilot> in the splashscreen? yes
<jsgotangco> heh that was wicked
<Madpilot> I think the other versions need animated splashscreens too! :)
<jsgotangco> im very happy with the result of the beta
<jsgotangco> it is very stable
<Madpilot> seems like it - I was just running the LiveCD for a couple of hours
<Madpilot> swearing at Gaim in between trying everything in the menus at least once
<jsgotangco> irssi love dude
<jsgotangco> if there is no client
<jsgotangco> hehe
<gobbe> in fact, xfce's old versions were quite 1:1 copy of cde
<gobbe> cde's desktop
<jsgotangco> yeah cde
<Madpilot> jsgotangco, bah. If X exists, I'm going to use it ;)
<Madpilot> cue my oft-repeated "Removing XChat-Gnome from Dapper is a huge mistake" line...
<jsgotangco> i have to start updating my laptop page
<jsgotangco> you're just not used to having GAIM as a chat client
* robitaille doesn't miss CDE
<Madpilot> no, all I do is IRC
<jsgotangco> xchat-gnome is more confusing as an IRC client at first glance compared to GAIM
<crimsun> gaim is just horrid, though
<robitaille> jsgotangco:  personally I hated gaim irc client, and didn't like xchat-gnome.  xchat was fine.  But I prefer irrsi
<jsgotangco> yeah funny we have irssi shipped
<Madpilot> we should bring back XChat. When it first launches it goes right to #ubuntu by default - neither XChat-gnome nor gaim do that...
<jsgotangco> but the channce most users will use it is pretty low
<robitaille> I wonder if some higher up people uses it :)
<jsgotangco> i use irssi mostly for remote connecting to my box
<jsgotangco> s/for/when
<Madpilot> robitaille, probably
* jsgotangco begins xorg hunt for the day
* robitaille is going to bed...
<crimsun> yeah, quarter after 4 AM. Bed time.
<Madpilot> later robitaille 
<mdke> LaserJoc1_away, np, thanks anyway
<mdke> morning everyone
<mdke> so I'm wondering if we should stop shipping html
<mdke> I'm fairly sure that we won't have space to ship html of the translations as well as xml
<mdke> so maybe it's worth giving up html
<mdke> no one has ubuntu-docs installed without also having yelp, or very few people
<mdke> and the html is on the website
<mdke> any thoughts?
<highvoltage> the only thing that comes to mind (not that i'm active with -doc), is that some people might want to read some docs off the CD before installing.
<highvoltage> that's where html in the cd tree is nice though.
<mdke> highvoltage, the live cd?
<mdke> the livecd has yelp, and should display the xml ok
<highvoltage> oh, right... i was thinking traditional cd.
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> not sure
<highvoltage> yeah, then there seems little reason to keep duplicate docs around, as far as i can tell.
<mdke> the main reason for html is that someone running a server might want to read the serverguide
<mdke> but then again, ubuntu-docs isn't shipped in the server seed, so.
<highvoltage> does that require anything else beside plaintext?
<mdke> highvoltage, sorry, I don't understand the question
<highvoltage> mdke: what i mean is, does the serverguide really require an html file with images? wouldn't a plain text document be enough?
<mdke> highvoltage, well that's true. I don't know how to make plain text documents ;)
<highvoltage> mdke: sorry, i might be going a bit off the topic you started from
<highvoltage> hehe
<mdke> but in any case, I doubt we'd have room to include plain text translations
<mdke> what we should do for edgy is to make separate packages for each document, and have some metapackages, I suppose
<mdke> maybe we should just include html for the server guide in english, and not other languages *shrug*
<highvoltage> is there any sensitivity around the issue?
<highvoltage> i suppose most people who would do a server install would have some kind of connectivity, with which they can get it on-line
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> and they don't have ubuntu-docs installed by default either, and might not think to look for it there
<highvoltage> perhaps there should be a documentation tarball/iso that you could download seperate to the CD
<mdke> they are more likely to find it on the website than in ubuntu-docs, certainly
<highvoltage> yep
<mdke> I'll mail the list, I think dropping it is the way forward
<arekmenner> So do you fellows usually write the DocBook XML yourselves or use an exporter like MoinMoin wiki or that OpenOffice plugin?
<highvoltage> anyone in -doc know where i can get ubuntu.ttf?
<arekmenner> It'd probably be somewhere on doc.ubuntu.com
<arekmenner> I'll go look for it for you.
<arekmenner> Wait, we're talking a font, aren't we...
<arekmenner> Silly me.
<arekmenner> http://packages.ubuntu.com/dapper/x11/ttf-ubuntu-title
<arekmenner> Could that perhaps be what you're looking for?
<highvoltage> arekmenner: thanks!
<arekmenner> No problem! ^-^
<highvoltage> ^_^
<arekmenner> So whenever any of you fellows get back, you could just tell me if you usually write DocBook by hand or export.
<mdke> arekmenner, we write it by hand, at the moment there are not exporting tools which are good enough to make clean and valid docbook xml for our purposes
* arekmenner nods.
<arekmenner> That's what I kind of assumed.
<mdke> there are some plugins for clever editors and bluefish has some helpful features
<mdke> you can't beat gedit though
<arekmenner> <nods>
<arekmenner> But that means I'll have to install Cygwin on this box.
<arekmenner> (Or get it dual-booting)
<arekmenner> Oh well, I can just learn it for now.
<mdke> you should generally use the operating system you're writing about :)
<arekmenner> ^-^
<arekmenner> I'll write on the laptop.
<mdke> bbl
<LaserJock> morning all
<arekmenner> Morning.
<arekmenner> How do?
<LaserJock> hi arekmenner 
<arekmenner> Not a whole lot going on in here.
<rebelliousfreedo> hye everyone
<arekmenner> Hello.
<rebelliousfreedo> i need help
<arekmenner> With what?
<rebelliousfreedo> ubuntu
<arekmenner> Hmm..
<rebelliousfreedo> im newbie
<arekmenner> That would probably be better suited for the IRC channel #ubuntu
<rebelliousfreedo> oo really?
<arekmenner> I hate to be so cheery and then ship you off somewhere else.
<rebelliousfreedo> hmm
<arekmenner> But this is mostly for writing documentation about ubuntu.
<arekmenner> #ubuntu is the ubuntu help channel.
<rebelliousfreedo> oo ok thanx
<LaserJock> yeah, what arekmenner 
<arekmenner> All you have to do is type /join #ubuntu
<LaserJock> said
<arekmenner> And then ask your question there.
<arekmenner> Happy hunting!
<arekmenner> Aw, he'll do fine.
<LaserJock> mdke: is there any documentation for espresso/ubiquity?
<mdke> LaserJock_away, yeah, Kamion writes it
<trappist> who can edit http://www.ubuntu.com/testing/dapperbeta?  there's a couple of emails on the list about some mistakes
<mdke> i'll have a look
<trappist> and for future reference I'm usually available for proofreading high-profile publications like this - the doc says it's ours but I never heard about it until it was referred to on the list
<mdke> mgalvin takes care of it, he writes them on the wiki then transfers it over
<mdke> trappist, let him know, he often asks in here for reviewing, but you may not have been around
* trappist looks him up
<mdke> jane seems to like the lulu idea
<mdke> good news
<trappist> did I get removed from the launchpad group?
<trappist> ah, found mgalvin
<trappist> aw dangit.  looks like I removed myself from the group accidentally when I tried to leave another group.
<LaserJock> mdke: glad to here jane likes the lulu ide
<mdke> me too
<LaserJock> well espresso has been a bust for me :(
<LaserJock> I'm pretty disapointed
<LaserJock> the livecd is awesome overall, fastest livecd I've ever seen
<LaserJock> but I just can't get the partitioning to work at all and it keeps freezing on me
<mdke> hit malone
<LaserJock> yeah, I think most of the stuff is already reported
<mdke> i would have thought so
<LaserJock> but I have *no* linux ATM and I'm going to have download the regular install cd (which will take forever on my DSL)
<mdke> yeah, I just went straight for the installer
<LaserJock> espresso is great at wiping out all my partitions, it just can't make new ones very well
<LaserJock> I even tried partitioning using gparted first and then running espresso
<LaserJock> but it still wan't to reformat my partions as a different FS
<LaserJock> s/wan't/wants/
<mdke> annoying
* LaserJock starts downloading the .iso and goes to lunch
<LaserJock> bbl
<mdke> we need to think about how to publish these guides then, paperback/hardback, size etc
<LaserJock> yeah
<poningru> question about a page on the wiki
<poningru> the restricted formats page
<poningru> can we put in a section about easyubuntu?
<poningru> right at the begining
#ubuntu-doc 2006-04-28
<LaserJock> mdke: I'm so excited about the lulu thing
<mdke> LaserJock, :)
<mdke> LaserJock, make sure you get your opinion in on all those questions
<cyber_cool_cat> hello :-)
<mdke> hi cyber_cool_cat 
<cyber_cool_cat> kinda need some help
<mdke> cyber_cool_cat, what with?
<cyber_cool_cat> installed dapper about a month ago on my lappy and everything works fine 
<cyber_cool_cat> except for my bluetooth mouse
<cyber_cool_cat> no that's unfair the mouse works but the scroll wheel doesn't
<cyber_cool_cat> it's the microsoft intellimouse explorer for bluetooth
<mdke> you need #ubuntu for help with Ubuntu
<mdke> this is for documentation discussion
<cyber_cool_cat> ooops
<cyber_cool_cat> sorry
<mdke> 3~np
<cyber_cool_cat> well anyways great distro and keep up the good work (can't wait for edgy)
<mdke> me neither
<LaserJock> mdke: so would we do each guide seperate? or do one big "Ubuntu Documentation Project" book?
<mdke> separate
<LaserJock> each with it's own cover art? it might be cool to keep the same theme but tweak just slightly to personalize them
* rob looks.. did the books get approved?
<mdke> I would think that it will be best to have the same theme and just change the text, tbh
<mdke> rob, well, not approved exactly, but jane has no problem with them
<rob> great :)
<rob> has anyone spoken to the art team about the cover work yet?
<mdke> no, we need to answer a few questions first
<rob> sure, is there anything I could help you answer?
<mdke> they are more policy decisions, feel free to chip in on the mailing list about them
<rob> oh, cool I'll take a look (just woke up)
<mdke> I'm playing with the pdfs atm
<mdke> I've made some 6x9 inches, it looks ok. desktopguide is 80ish pages
<rob> hmm.. lulu.com isn't working for me atm
<mdke> works here
<rob> oh wait, its working just really slowly for me
<mdke> http://mdke.org/ubuntu/desktopguide.pdf
<mdke> that is 6x9in
<mdke> the headings need some work
<rob> grr @ lulu.com.. still isn't fully loaded
<mdke> aww crap the footnotes are overlapping with the main text, that's rubbish
<rob> they are?
<rob> looks ok to me in Evince
<mdke> some of them are
<rob> ah I see, page 27
<rob> I have 72 pages according to Evince too
<mdke> yep
<mdke> ok I've uploaded a new one with some fixes to headings, comments on formatting to the mailing list
<mdke> night all
<rob> night mdke 
<rob> hmm its still overlapping on page 27
<rob> I'll try it with Adobe proper
<mdke> yes, I haven't fixed that yet
<rob> ah ok
<mdke> also to be fixed: spacing around menus, orphaned section titles
<rob> overlapping in Adobe proper too :(
* mdke goes to sleep
<rob> no cloak Madpilot?
<Madpilot> hostmask? Looks like it's in place
<rob> didn't kick in before you joined the chan
<Madpilot> odd - a bit of server delay, I guess
<Madpilot> XChat running too fast for Freenode to keep up ;)
<rob> nah, older versions of xchat don't wait to identify with nickserv before joining channels
<Madpilot> that'd be it - I'm still running Breezy - XChat 2.4.4
<rob> wow, the guides will be really cheap though Lulu..
<rob> around $6.13 US (before shipping)
<Madpilot> nice
<Madpilot> I might fire up Inkscape later and see about roughing out a cover for us
<Madpilot> I assume Lulu can do full-bleed colour printing? 
<rob> I guess, all the other books on there web site look pretty good
<Madpilot> was that Russian Gnome book a Lulu product too?
<rob> if you click on the Browse tab on the Lulu site you can browse all their books which includes pictures of the covers
<rob> looks like anything you want, one has a photo on it
<rob> they have more then 6 books though, the rest are in the side menus
<Kamping_Kaiser> hi all. how does the docteam generate it's html docs? i was looking at xsl, but the docteams not using that
<Madpilot> voodoo of some sort ;)
<Kamping_Kaiser> ah, no wonder i didnt get it ;)
<Madpilot> seriously, I don't know - Matt East does, though (mdke)
<Kamping_Kaiser> ok. i'll hang around (more or less - this connection keeps dying) and see if i can catch hijm
<Kamping_Kaiser> *him
<Madpilot> Burgundavia, how's life on the road in places full of Amurricans?
<Burgundavia> wierd
<Burgundavia> there is some hope for them yet
<Madpilot> yeah, they're buying Linux :P
<Burgundavia> I heard 3 radio ads about saving energy and saw 6 windmills on the OK/TX border
<Burgundavia> otherwise, it is living large
<Madpilot> did you rent an SUV again?
<Burgundavia> no, a KIA
<Madpilot> yikes!
<Kamping_Kaiser> hi rob
<rob> hi Kamping_Kaiser 
<KingBahamut> evening all
<rob> hi KingBahamut 
<Madpilot> hi KingBahamut
<Kamping_Kaiser> hi KingBahamut
<KingBahamut> rob, Madpilot , Kamping_Kaiser , top o the evening to yerselves
<rob> hmm, I wonder if its worth making the Desktop guide available though Amazon marketplace too, its only $35 to do so..
<Madpilot> would that give us worldwide availability?
<rob> yes
<rob> I think..
<rob> Your book listed in Books In Print, the searchable database that librarians, booksellers, publishers, students, faculty, researchers, library patrons and bookstore customers use to find the exact titles they need, and the Nielsen BookData bibliographic database.
<rob> I guess so
<Madpilot> think Mark can afford it? ;)
<rob> ..one year of placement in the Amazon Marketplace at no extra charge.
<rob> heh
<rob> there is a separate "Global Distribution Service" for $150, but thats mainly for distribution to bookstores world wide
<rob> ooh.. they do Google Book Search too
<rob> but you have to have paid the $35
<rob> it needs to be at least 81 pages for text to appear on the spine too
<rob> and be perfect-bound, otherwise it will be saddle-stiched
<Madpilot> the UDG is currently 80, we can get an extra page or two out of it, I'm sure
<rob> heh year
<rob> year
<rob> bah
<rob> yeah
<rob> I'm rather surprised at how cheap it will be
<rob> I'll probably buy a copy of everything :)
<rob> Price = Production Cost + Royalty + Lulu Commission (if we wave royalty which we will do, they will wave Lulu commission)
<LaserJock_away> I had ~3 already want to get a print copy of the Packaging Guide, it would be really cool to have a good looking version
<rob> I worked out the Desktop guide to be about $6 or something before, plus postage
<rob> the packaging guide I suspect will be even cheaper
<LaserJock> the packaging guide is almost the same length as the desktop guide, I think
<rob> oh.. cool :)
<LaserJock> but there are a few pages in the appendix that could be shortened for print though
<rob> its only $0.02 a page
<rob> not sure if that is double sided page or not
<LaserJock> unless it is color, is that correct?
<rob> I suspect not
<rob> yes, colour is a little bit more per colour page
<rob> $0.15 per colour page
<rob> having a few colour pages wouldn't hurt all that much
<rob> if the whole 80 pages were colour the book would only come it at $16.53 US
<Madpilot> I guess we've got to print the entire GFDL & CC:BYSA licences?
<rob> yes, I guess so
<LaserJock> or the GPL :(
<LaserJock> although i think the GPL is shorter
<Madpilot> well, that'll help keep our page count up, anyway :P
<rob> heh yeah
<LaserJock> author bio pages?
<LaserJock> ;-)
<Kamping_Kaiser> lol
<rob> the 80 pages includes the licenses by the looks of things anyway
<rob> there is 16 of us in total, could blow it out :)
<LaserJock> how do we do the royalties thing? do we have to contact *each* contributor?
<rob> LaserJock, we simply wave our royalties
<rob> lulu will wave their royalties in that case too
<Madpilot> waive
<LaserJock> yeah, but do we have to get *everybody* to agree
<rob> yeah, that too Madpilot :)
<Madpilot> LaserJock, copyright is held by the Doc Team, not by individual contributors
<LaserJock> ah, cool
<rob> we can publish using an our normal licenses, so have a quick look at them
<rob> pretty sure its ok either way
<LaserJock> I just didn't want to have the whole thing messed up because one or two people don't want to waive
<Madpilot> or wave ;)
<LaserJock> that too :-)
* LaserJock waves to everybody
<rob> IANAL but I think we are ok under the CCbySA at least
<rob> same with the GFDL - as long as we keep a copy with it (IASNAL)
<rob> we don't require cover texts I think either, so the 100 copy thing is all good
<Burgundavia> Madpilot: no, it is not
<Madpilot> Burgundavia, what, copyright isn't held by DocTeam? Or?
<Burgundavia> no, the copyright is held by the individual contributors
<rob> held by the authors
<Burgundavia> besides, the doc team is not a legal entity and thus cannot hold copyright
<Madpilot> but does doing this Lulu thing require extra permission from the various authors?
<rob> Madpilot, no
<Madpilot> didn't think so
<Madpilot> I've been messing around in Inkscape: http://www.warbard.ca/temp/Ubuntu_Lulu_cover_draft.png
<Madpilot> thoughts?
<rob> that looks nice, not sure if I like the bright orange though
<Madpilot> I was just pulling colours off the Ubuntu palette, easy enough to change any of them
<rob> check out the book cover sizes at http://tproxy.guardster.com/proxy.php/333000024320ce282929b0d2d72f2f2fd7cb29cd29d54bcecfd5cf48cd29d0cfcc4b49add02bc828b04ff374b1353437320300
<rob> sorry about the proxy link, I can't get the lulu.com web site working normally
<Madpilot> that's supposed to be a 6x9 cover, to match the PDF Matt created
<rob> they have templates on there
<rob> crown quarto is a little bigger (which would mean less pages too)
<rob> but 6x9 is an option too :)
<Madpilot> need to get food - back later
<rob> bye
<LaserJock> Madpilot: looks nice, just needs to go to orange later :-)
<rob> what if we replaced the orange with the brown, and replaced the brown with white (and made the bleed later)? 
<LaserJock> perhaps, I'm just not very artistic
<rob> neither :)
<LaserJock> I can tell if I like or dislike something, but coming up with an alternative is pretty tough sometimes
<rob> we should let the art team loose and see what they come up with too 
<LaserJock> yeah, for sure
<LaserJock> It would be nice to include something uniquely doc team
<LaserJock> an icon, or something with the colors
<rob> I think it would be good as a 'community' thing
<LaserJock> yeah
<rob> LaserJock, for the icons, yeah
<rob> heh, no one noticed that I didn't op to ban that guy in #ubunut :)
<rob> s/#ubunut/#ubuntu
<LaserJock> I like the emblems on LP, they are kinda cool to see projects and who is active in what area, etc.
<rob> yep
<rob> I have like 4 of them now :)
<LaserJock> I'm up to 6 now :)
<rob> ooh nice :)
<LaserJock> https://launchpad.net/people/mantha
<Kamping_Kaiser> showoffs :/
<LaserJock> but my karma still stinks ;-)
<rob> motu have an icon for everything..
<LaserJock> heh, darn right :p
<LaserJock> 4 of mine are MOTU related
<rob> whats up with the ubuntu-dev icon, whats that about?
<LaserJock> those are the MOTU
<LaserJock> motu (LP) != MOTU
<rob> where did the icon come from?
<LaserJock> it is sort of wierd
<LaserJock> have no idea
<rob> its like a little red cross thing
<LaserJock> yeah, maltese cross, it looks like
<Kamping_Kaiser> maltese cross?
<Madpilot> Ubunt-dev's logo looks like a Crusading order's symbol ;)
<rob> https://launchpad.net/people/rob1
* Kamping_Kaiser thought it looked like the Iron cross
<LaserJock> yes, the maltese cross is the sign for the Knights Templar
<Madpilot> thought it was something like that
<Kamping_Kaiser> hm
<LaserJock> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights_Templars
<Madpilot> rob, on the book cover - how about brown below, tan above, and move the fade down a bit?
<rob> maybe, can you alter it easily?
<Madpilot> sure - the original is an SVG
<LaserJock> although the maltese cross looks a bit different http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maltese_cross
<LaserJock> rob: I love that irc team emblem :-)
<rob> heh, its the old gnome xchat one I think..
<LaserJock> I was trying to figure out some way to join the team just so I'd have that one
<rob> #ubuntu channel ops
<rob> kind of made sense that as an ircop here I should be on the #ubuntu channel op team too
<Madpilot> "those insane enough to voluteer for #ubuntu op" :P
<LaserJock> yeah, I know. I'll probably never get it :(
<Kamping_Kaiser> LaserJock: ops? 
<LaserJock> I just can't stand #ubuntu
<LaserJock> I get a headache
<Kamping_Kaiser> lol
<LaserJock> and I'm not helpful :(
<LaserJock> I don't do anything that people need help on
* Kamping_Kaiser tends to help out in #Kubuntu, not #ubuntu
<rob> I just keep an ever watchful eye on it
<rob> I don't help out that much
<Madpilot> kickbanning counts as helping, rob 
<Kamping_Kaiser> ++
<rob> heh yeah
<rob> what about klining? :P
<Madpilot> especially klining
<rob> I wrote a python script for xchat that allows me to right click -> Quick Kline on a nick/host/ip for 24 hours, evil stuff
* Kamping_Kaiser enquires if anyone exept mdke knows about generating html versions of docs
<Kamping_Kaiser> rob, so i don't mess you with eh? ;)
<rob> nah, I'm pretty nice
<Madpilot> Kamping_Kaiser, he's one of Freenode's admins, so he's got even bigger fangs than us ordinary ops :P
<Kamping_Kaiser> Madpilot: i know ;) he's a scary type
<Madpilot> actually, this is not one of the channels I've got ops in - #ubuntu, -offtopic, and a couple of others, but not -doc
<rob> I just set god mode (+p) on myself, works great for all channels
<LaserJock> ohh, I just booted into Dapper Beta for the first time after a 2 day struggle to get it installed
<LaserJock> it is soooo nice
<LaserJock> Kamping_Kaiser: the commands should be in ubuntu/Makefile
<rob> yep, I did on my laptop, only thing that annoys me is that totem insists on hiding the top bar thing when you open it up
<Kamping_Kaiser> it's an amazing change flight* -> beta 1 eh
<Kamping_Kaiser> LaserJock: thanks, I'll open it up
<Madpilot> off again - see you all later
<LaserJock> it is actually the first time ive done a fresh install since ~ September
<Kamping_Kaiser> later Madpilot
<Madpilot> hi all
<Kamping_Kaiser> wb
<Madpilot> went to the pool for a bit - well, mostly to the hot tub & sauna... having done 6hrs of landscaping today ;)
<jsgotangco> wow id love to do something like that now
<Kamping_Kaiser> wow :o active day
<jsgotangco> (hot tub and sauna)
<Madpilot> I was helping a relative in their garden - regular gardening bores me, but landscaping is fun sometimes
<Madpilot> ripping up grass and replacing it with more interesting things 
<robotgeek> howdy Kamping_Kaiser 
<Kamping_Kaiser> gday robotgeek
<Kamping_Kaiser> hows it been?
<robotgeek> Kamping_Kaiser: good, slightly hectic
<Kamping_Kaiser> i'm finding that converting docbook to html looks harder then i thought. *puts it off for later*
<robotgeek> Kamping_Kaiser: xslt proc?
<Kamping_Kaiser> somehow :/
<robotgeek> not that i will have particular insights :)
<Kamping_Kaiser> i opend up the docteams make file and that's freaky
<LaserJock> Kamping_Kaiser: it isn't too hard is it?
<robotgeek> Kamping_Kaiser: the trick is to look at one target only
<robotgeek> ignore the rest, heh
<Kamping_Kaiser> heh.
<Madpilot> the real trick is to leave the messy stuff like conversion to other people ;)
<Kamping_Kaiser> lol. not a luxury i have i think
<LaserJock> Kamping_Kaiser: what are you trying to convert?
<Kamping_Kaiser> LaserJock: some docs i'v written (not for the docteam, but i use your tools :$)
<robotgeek> Kamping_Kaiser: eu docs?
<Kamping_Kaiser> robotgeek: yeh
<Kamping_Kaiser> hi Hobbsee
<LaserJock> for instance, for the packaging guide:
<LaserJock> xsltproc --xinclude --stringparam base.dir $(PGBASE)C/ $(UBUNTUCHUNKXSL) ../generic/packagingguide/C/packagingguide.xml
<Kamping_Kaiser> Hobbsee: those who wish to post or speak must answer me these questions 3... 
<Hobbsee> hi Kamping_Kaiser.  and tough luck, i'm not answering the questions :P
<LaserJock> what, is the average airspeed velocity of a cocanut laden swallow?
<Madpilot> Kamping_Kaiser, African or European, laden or unladen?
<Kamping_Kaiser> Hobbsee: *aaaaaaahhhhhhhhhh*
<Madpilot> LaserJock, great minds run in the same gutters, I see :P
<robotgeek> hey, that question looks familiar. 
* Hobbsee hides, not wanting to disrupt the chat.  and Madpilot types too fast :P
<Kamping_Kaiser> lol
* Kamping_Kaiser slaps Hobbsee aobut a bit with one of his plaits
* Hobbsee chops it all off!
<Kamping_Kaiser> aaahgagga!
* Kamping_Kaiser cries to Laska
<Kamping_Kaiser> Madpilot: i'm starting to agree - converting is something you leave to other people
<LaserJock> Kamping_Kaiser: I think all you need is xsltproc and nwalshes stylesheet
* Kamping_Kaiser checks he has the stylesheet
<Madpilot> alternate book cover for us: http://www.warbard.ca/temp/Ubuntu_Lulu_cover_draft_brown.png
<Madpilot> my first, for those who missed it a few hours ago: http://www.warbard.ca/temp/Ubuntu_Lulu_cover_draft.png
<robotgeek> Madpilot: can you do one in blue too? :)
<robotgeek> the second one is so much better than the first
<Madpilot> robotgeek, I can post the SVG and you fire up Inkscape, even
<LaserJock> Kamping_Kaiser: the packaging guide commands are at http://pastebin.com/676366
<Burgundavia> Madpilot: I am not certain the extra logos are good, but can you try another version with lighter logos?
<Kamping_Kaiser> Madpilot: i like the first one o_0, just the fade is a bit... short
<Madpilot> Burgundavia, yeah, can do
<Madpilot> man, SVG makes it so easy to tweak this stuff :)
<Burgundavia> alright, night all
<robotgeek> Madpilot: cool, i'll have to learn Inkscape
<Madpilot> later Burgundavia 
<robotgeek> i'm very poor at graphics design, really
* Kamping_Kaiser can be opinionated, but not productive
<Hobbsee> Madpilot: wow, nice!
<LaserJock> Kamping_Kaiser: I'm with you ;-)
<Kamping_Kaiser> hehe
<Madpilot> http://www.warbard.ca/temp/Ubuntu_Lulu_cover_draft_orange2.png <-- lighter single-colour logos, extended fade
* Kamping_Kaiser tries to protect his retinas from the bottom half
<Kamping_Kaiser> Madpilot: can you put up the svg?
<Madpilot> sure
<Madpilot> http://www.warbard.ca/temp/Ubuntu_Lulu_cover_draft.svg 
<Madpilot> that's the orange one, but colour is really easy to change in SVG
<Kamping_Kaiser> got it thanks
<Madpilot> so is color, for the Americans present ;)
<Kamping_Kaiser> lol
<Madpilot> cool, Opera 9beta even displays that SVG properly
<crimsun> I'm finding I like this 9beta a lot
<crimsun> I went as far as to purge firefox completely
<Madpilot> robotgeek, there's a couple of really good Inkscape tutorials out there, and it's a simpler app to use than the GIMP or PS
<robotgeek> Madpilot: hmm, if you say so. i'm doing some python sutff, heh
<Hobbsee> Madpilot: it requires gnone though :(  well, gnome libs
* Hobbsee installs anyway :D
<Madpilot> Hobbsee, doesn't everyone run Gnome already? </me ducks> ;)
<Hobbsee> Madpilot: nope.   the only ones who do are crazy.
<Kamping_Kaiser> it's nice and up to date - 43 is what's tehir latest stable
* Hobbsee thwaps Madpilot 
* Kamping_Kaiser slaps Hobbsee about with a Gnome 2.08 desktop
<Hobbsee> ewww. tried that, went back.
* robotgeek slaps Kamping_Kaiser and Madpilot with a Kubuntu Dapper Beta
<Hobbsee> hehe
<Madpilot> hey, I've got piles of KDE libs for Scribus and stuff, so a few Gnome libs are a small price to pay ;)
<Kamping_Kaiser> hehe. i have a stack of KDE stuff here because of all the KDE edu stuff in edubuntu ;)
* Kamping_Kaiser declares his screen to small to work on and leaves it to Madpilot
* Madpilot pats his 19" CRT
* Kamping_Kaiser eyes off his laptop
<Madpilot> quick partial hack at a Kubuntu cover: http://www.warbard.ca/temp/Kubuntu_Lulu_cover_draft.png
<Madpilot> I don't have the Kubuntu logos right now
<Madpilot> but it's very blooooo ;)
<gaz00> how does it look with the logo rotated slightly for the non-title (background) ones?
<Kamping_Kaiser> Madpilot: and has K's ;)
<Madpilot> gaz00, you mean a diagonal line of logos? 
<gaz00> no, still in a vertical line.
<gaz00> but i was wondering how it'd look with each copy of the logo exactly where it is, but slightly rotated
<gaz00> just a thought :)
<Madpilot> hmmm - only problem with that is that rotating the logo is one of the things the Ubuntu Trademark Policy forbids
<gaz00> Oh.   I thought that it was alterations to the logo, and not mentioning that it was TM canonical
<Madpilot> no, there's a clause in there about proper display of the logo - including the 'no rotation' bit
<gaz00> ah!    Fair enough.   good catch :)
<gaz00> http://www.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/TrademarkPolicy
<gaz00> hmm.    it's not technically modified, but it is scaled.
<gaz00> i wouldn't know though
<gaz00> so obviously use your best judgement
<Madpilot> we'd have to get any design OK'd by Canonical anyway - they might veto the single-colour versions of the logos, but I hope not
<robotgeek> Madpilot: nice work
<Madpilot> robotgeek, thnx. 
<Madpilot> does Kubuntu not use the "Linux for Human Beings" strapline like Ubuntu does?
<robotgeek> Madpilot: feel free to add it in, really
<Madpilot> ok
<Madpilot> robotgeek, http://www.warbard.ca/temp/Kubuntu_Lulu_cover_draft.png
<poningru> I asked a question couple of days ago and recieved a semi satisfactory answer from Seveas, the question was regarding restricted formats page on the wiki and recomending eu 
<poningru> Madpilot: ping ^^^^
<Madpilot> poningru, hi
<Madpilot> eu = easyubuntu?
<poningru> yeah
<poningru> oops my bad
<Madpilot> poningru, I think a mention of eu would be ok; leave the rest of the instructions in place, though
<poningru> Seveas was mentioning that we should hold of till eu is stable, which I think it is...
<poningru> oh ok cool
<Madpilot> that's just my $0.02, though - someone else might well revert your wiki edit or something
<poningru> right will fight it on the talk
<poningru> wait is there even a talk on moinmoin?
<Kamping_Kaiser> poningru. 
<poningru> ello
<Madpilot> poningru, kind of. RestrictedFormats/talk
<Kamping_Kaiser> 2 things - one is wait for there to be a deb for kubuntu/ubuntu, and the second is that by recomending EU someone will add AX
<Kamping_Kaiser> and hi ;)
<poningru> Kamping_Kaiser: but ax is not really recomended by the community though and eu was originally intended for kubuntu
<poningru> oh as in a .deb
<poningru> hmm
<Madpilot> we've had Autobreakix added & reverted to/from Restricted before - lots of people are subbed to that page
<Kamping_Kaiser> heh. i'm not supprised
<poningru> right... but again eu is recommended by the community though as opposed to ax which is looked upon badly
<Madpilot> the other one that gets odd edits is the FF1.5 page, oddly enough...
<Kamping_Kaiser> poningru depends what part of the community your in. 
<Kamping_Kaiser> Madpilot: you a wiki junky?
<poningru> Kamping_Kaiser: the one closer to the devs
<poningru> Madpilot: the firefox new version?
<Madpilot> Kamping_Kaiser, I seem to be subb'd to chunks of :P
<Madpilot> poningru, yes.
<Kamping_Kaiser> lol Madpilot
<poningru> has eu ever showed up on the restricted formats page?
<Madpilot> Someone removed everything from that page at one point and put "Use Windows, it's easier than this cr*p" instead :P
<poningru> hehe
<Kamping_Kaiser> lol.
<poningru> hmm perhaps I should put an email out to the devs mailing list and ask if they do recommend eu
<Madpilot> and no, I don't think eu has appeared on Restricted yet
<poningru> but yeah you are right eu isnt that easy to use... due to the lack of deb form
* Kamping_Kaiser is reminded he has some docs to work on for a certain community app
<Madpilot> I think ax comes in .deb these days, doesn't it?
<poningru> I think it does
<Kamping_Kaiser> i think so. 
<Kamping_Kaiser> siretart wasnt so nice about it when he went through it (i remember the recent thread on soudner)
<Kamping_Kaiser> "recent"
<poningru> yeah
<poningru> damn it I hate that we dont have official forums
* Kamping_Kaiser has never used/downloaded AX, so all his new is third party
<Kamping_Kaiser> yeh, i know :\
<poningru> so many forum users telling people to support ax
<poningru> grr
<poningru> err use*
* Kamping_Kaiser finds the forums quite a different cultural experiance to IRC. should use them more though :/
<Madpilot> I've seen fewer ax suggestions in the Absolute Beginners forum in the last couple of months, at least
<poningru> yeah I dont use the forums cause they use vbbulletin
<poningru> but see I am thinking swallow my principles and use the stupid thing
<poningru> but then.... my concience gets the better of me
<Kamping_Kaiser> Madpilot: i have noticed a few clones pop up. or 'quick setup tools' 
<Kamping_Kaiser> everyone has a comment in the thread like "is this the future automatix? cos Arni isnt doing it anymroe"
<Kamping_Kaiser> *sp
<Madpilot> ax has been adapted for at least one other distro, too
<poningru> it has?
<Kamping_Kaiser> etch
<poningru> for debian????
<Kamping_Kaiser> i just realised we have Edgy and Debian has Etch... bad move us.
<Kamping_Kaiser> yeh
<poningru> wow thats the last distro I would have expected to have automatix
<poningru> well maybe not the last but still
<Madpilot> hmm, one other too - I saw it on one of the *nix news sites I visit
<Kamping_Kaiser> if you can handle the Debian installer you can apt-get install good stuff
<Kamping_Kaiser> <grin>
<poningru> so arnie did drop ax?
<poningru> so who is working on it now?
<Kamping_Kaiser> last i saw he said he was stopping when dapper came out. but i have heard that line before
<Madpilot> I think he's still developing it - he had a sulk for a while and stopped
<poningru> hmm someone should persuade him to stop...
<poningru> is it true you cant use the update manager with it? or synaptic?
<Madpilot> he's still posting to the ax forum at ubuntuforums, as of 11hrs ago
<poningru> hmmm
<Madpilot> poningru, I don't think so - I drop into the ax forums every so often, I think I'd have seen people complaining about ax breaking Synaptic...
<poningru> hmm ic
<Kamping_Kaiser> i suspect the way it installs packages makes apt throw up
<Madpilot> it might cause/introduce depend errors, I guess
<Madpilot> if I had a spare box or spare partition I'd do a clean Breezy install then inflict ax on it, just for practice
<Kamping_Kaiser> anyone know what repos AX uses? it used to use the plf, but i don't know now
<Kamping_Kaiser> don't! you might convert ;)
<Madpilot> unlikely :P
<Kamping_Kaiser> lol
<Madpilot> I've seen to many "I ran ax and now..." posts in #ubuntu
<poningru> hehe yeah
<Madpilot> I notice there are more "ax broke something" posts in the ax forum these days, too
* Kamping_Kaiser wonders how many there will be after people upgrade to dapper
<Madpilot> heh
<Madpilot> that'll be messy
<Kamping_Kaiser> it's going to be a full week in #ubuntu
<Madpilot> is eu going to have a Dapper version out to meet the release date?
<Kamping_Kaiser> yes. 
<Madpilot> cool
<Kamping_Kaiser> robotgeek: should be putting final touches afaik. (sorry if I'm dobbing you in robotgeek)
<Kamping_Kaiser> ah. just found an answer to my question about repos
<Kamping_Kaiser> he's got a changelog on the forums
<Kamping_Kaiser> 5.8: d) plf repos removed
<Madpilot> hi jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> yo!
<Madpilot> jsgotangco, seen the draft covers I mocked up for the Lulu thing?
<jsgotangco> ive seen one, not all though
<jeldert> hi guys
<jeldert> just a quick comment: http://doc.ubuntu.com/ says the documentation will be for 6.04. This should be 6.06
<Madpilot> heh. good catch... thanks
<jeldert> and don't know if your responsible, or can do something about it, but my System > Help > System Documentation doesn't show the guide's anymore
<jeldert> in Dapper beta
<poningru> hmm
<Madpilot> wasn't there a bug reported about that?
<Madpilot> I can't find anything in my email, but I think I saw something about the docs in Dapper Beta...
<jeldert> ok
<jeldert> i only checked ubuntuforums.org
<Madpilot> jeldert, have a look in the bug reports: https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+bugs
<Madpilot> I'd look, but I'm off to sleep very, very soon ;)
* jsgotangco looks
<jsgotangco> oh its the website
<Madpilot> hmm?
<jsgotangco> jeldert: you can just ping mdke for that, he's the one who admins it, its only a a short string
<mdke> morning
<jeldert> there he is :)
<Madpilot> morning mdke 
<Kamping_Kaiser> hi jenda , hi mdke 
<mdke> how's it going?
<mdke> jeldert, I'll change it, thanks
<jeldert> cool
<jenda> hey there Kamping_Kaiser, mdke
<Kamping_Kaiser> :)
<mdke> Madpilot, I can't put some links in footnotes, and others in the text, it's one or the other, I'm afraid
* mdke is slowly reading mails
<Madpilot> mdke, too bad - was afraid of that
<Madpilot> hmm - could we branch the guides for publishing?
<jsgotangco> its already branched
<Madpilot> a new branch for the lulu stuff, I meant - so we can do some edits that would only make sense on paper
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> not really
<mdke> because we'd have to make two translations for everything
<Madpilot> yeah, that's true...
<mdke> since we're not publishing it professionally, I think it should be ok just to have them as they are
<mdke> is there something _really_ bad?
<Madpilot> not that I saw, in the PDF you produced, except for that one footnote being stepped on by a note
<mdke> right, hopefully I can figure out how to fix that
<Madpilot> the rest is just details
<Madpilot> anyway, I need sleep - suddenly it's 0300 :P
<mdke> good night
<Madpilot> later, all
<jsgotangco> is it valid to have 2 preface blocks?
<jsgotangco> one for foreword and one for preface itself?
<mdke> I don't know, there might be a foreword element i guess
<jsgotangco> there's none
<jsgotangco> i just wonder how its going to look like when converted
<jsgotangco> it validates though
<jsgotangco> heh seems i have no choice
<mdke> ok I've fixed the orphan problem by making each sect1 start on a new page, the chapter titles get a page to themselves: http://mdke.org/ubuntu/desktopguide.pdf any thoughts?
<jsgotangco> good night
<mdke> night
* mdke smells the translations
<jpatrick> moin
<poningru> ok the restricted page has been changed coments por favor
<philbull> hi guys
<philbull> would someone be able to take a look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/GraphicsApplications ?
<mdke> it has a lot of very large screenshots :/
<mdke> otherwise, looks rather nice
<mdke> eog could go first, rather than last
<philbull> hmmm
<philbull> the screenshots are definitely getting some attention
<philbull> (too high quality setting)
<philbull> what do you think of the useful links section?
<philbull> i could do with a few more
<mdke> i think it's useful :)
<philbull> :)
<mdke> but I'm not a fan of screenshots
<highvoltage> goodnight!
<mdke> night highvoltage 
<philbull> night
<highvoltage> night mdke & philbull
<mdke> philbull, a small point: no need to include instructions for starting evince from a terminal, I'd say
<philbull> how come?
<mdke> ditto for eog
<philbull> i think i mention its not normally needed and they open with programs
<mdke> well, we generally don't like including instructions which require opening a terminal, unless there is a reason to
<mdke> in this case, ALT F2 is fine
<philbull> just stick with the alt+F2 method, then?
<philbull> thanks
<philbull> now...
<philbull> are there any apps I've forgotten about? ;)
<mdke> if it were me, I'd remove instructions about how to install programs too, and just say "INstall package X"
<philbull> OK
<mdke> at the worst, you can include a link to a page which says how to install programs using the various methods
<philbull> the wikitodo page recommended basing it on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MultimediaApplications, so i tried to follow the style of that
<mdke> ok, my comment applies to that too then :D
<philbull> he he
<philbull> is there a way to escape JoinedWordsLinking?
<philbull> like with 'ImageMagick'?
<jpatrick> did my message get to the mailing list?
<mdke> jpatrick, yes
<jpatrick> ah good
<mdke> philbull, Image``Magick
<mdke> or Image''''''Magick
<philbull> thanks
<mdke> jpatrick, http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc
<jpatrick> mdke: I see it now
<mdke> philbull, thanks a lot for your work on that page, it is really nice
<philbull> :)
<philbull> thanks for the suggestions
<philbull> do you feel up to taking a quick look at another couple i've been working on?
<mdke> philbull, can you post them to the mailing list?
<mdke> we need to do a newsletter soon so its good to have references to include somewhere easy
<philbull> yup, ubuntu-doc?
<mdke> yes, thanks
<philbull> i'll try and sort that out tonight
<philbull> see you later, guys
<Madpilot> robotgeek, did you see my proposed Kubuntu Desktop Guide cover?
* robotgeek scrolsl up
<mdke> hi Madpilot 
<Madpilot> hi mdke 
<mdke> Madpilot, what do you think about having links in brackets rather than in footnotes? I don't think I can crack the footnote overlapping bug
<Madpilot> robotgeek, the URL was in one of the emails I sent last night - one sec, I'll dig it out
<robotgeek> Madpilot: got it
<Madpilot> mdke, sure, if that'll stop that odd bug
<mdke> it will yeah, although i prefer footnotes :/
<robotgeek> Madpilot: nice, sweet
<Madpilot> mdke, so do I, but if they don't work... which PDF creator are you using?
<mdke> fop
<mdke> Madpilot, btw, you would probably be interested in vetting https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MultimediaApplications posted by philbull earlier
<Madpilot> mdke, yeah, I've seen that before - it's a nice page
<mdke> ah, i got the impression it was new, np
<Madpilot> the screenshots on that page are in need of updating, though
<mdke> yeah, and making smaller
<Madpilot> esp. once Dapper comes out, Rhythymbox has changed quite a bit, I noticed
<mdke> Madpilot, also, i'm doubtful about eliminating widows/orphans in that pdf. Starting each section on its own page helps quite a lot, but lower level sections still tend to orphan a bit and I don't think there is a solution. I'm going to ask on the fop mailing list though
<Madpilot> cool
<mdke> meh, I can't believe how complicated this is
<mdke> why is there no Just Works docbook->pdf
<robotgeek> mdke: i faced same problem with latex too
<Madpilot> wonder if we could get Canonical to offer a bounty for one?
<mdke> that would be cool
<mdke> i think docbook.sf.net is working on a docbook->latex->pdf thing
<mdke> no idea how good it is though
<Madpilot> why the extra step thru latex from docbook?
<mdke> i dunno, maybe lots of people use latex :D
<mdke> i didn't read up on it
<robotgeek> Madpilot: latex is good to ahve around
* LaserJock puts up a hand
<robotgeek> lots of tools, etc
<Madpilot> yeah, it's been on my "I should look into that" list for a while now
<robotgeek> i've stopped using latex, xml seems much cleaner to me
<robotgeek> except for the math part :)
<robotgeek> maybe mathml or something works
* LaserJock will do his dissertation in latex
* robotgeek already did his thesis in latex, figure and tables are painful
<LaserJock> yes, but my advisor would absolutley kill me if I didn't use it
* mdke did his thesis in MS Word
<robotgeek> oh, the rest is awesome
<mdke> jus kiddin
<robotgeek> word is really painful with the formatting, sucks
<mdke> i used openoffice, it works fine
<LaserJock> yeah, I'd take latex over Word any day
<mdke> Madpilot, ARGH, urls are so long that they go off the edge of the page on 2 or 3 occasions
* robotgeek converted from openoffice to latex :)
<Madpilot> mdke, and no linebreaks possible?
<mdke> Madpilot, lemme see
* mdke pats the internet
* Madpilot does a lot of his writing in gedit then imports to Scribus :P
<LaserJock> I don't use openoffic for anything much over 1 page, it just gets too messy
<LaserJock> but then I do more presentations than actual doc writing
<mdke> i use openoffice for EVERYTHING. 
* mdke thinks that it is chemistry that is messy, not openoffice :D
<LaserJock> powerpoint (or impress) is now pretty much the only office app I use
<LaserJock> I don't use Excel and only occasionally Word
<Madpilot> there's a litte presentation-creator called "pointless" that is pretty cool - it's like handcoding
<LaserJock> I just basically need something I can put .ps files on and works in Windows
#ubuntu-doc 2006-04-29
<Madpilot> hi Burgundavia - how's Oooooklahoma?
<Burgundavia> it is a place
<Madpilot> that bad, huh? :P
<Burgundavia> hot here
<Burgundavia> 25C
<robotgeek> that's not hot
<Burgundavia> I stupidly forgot to check the weather before I came, so I am not prepared
<Burgundavia> robotgeek: when you come from 5-10C it is
<Madpilot> Burgundavia, actually, it's 17C in Victoria today
<Madpilot> 21 over in Abbotsford, even
<Burgundavia> wow
<Burgundavia> sorry, weather report says 36C and sunny
<mdke> hi Burgundavia 
<Burgundavia> salut mdke
<Madpilot> Burgundavia, what's the name of the town you're in?
<Burgundavia> guymon
<Burgundavia> it is in the weather applet
<mdke> does anyone have an objection to hyphenating words across lines?
<mdke> (for the pdfs)
<Burgundavia> http://maps.google.com/maps?oi=map&q=Guymon,+OK
<Madpilot> KGUY 232153Z AUTO 21013G23KT 10SM CLR 36/M03 A2972 RMK AO2 SLP017 T03561033 $
<Madpilot> "hot, dry as heck, and cloudless", it looks like
<Burgundavia> yep
<Madpilot> windy, too
<Burgundavia> I saw 6 wind power generators on the OK/TX border
<robotgeek> mdke: hmm, i thought it was normal to do that?
<Burgundavia> apparently they would have more, but don't have the lines to distribute that much enery
<mdke> robotgeek, good, good.
<Madpilot> mdke, hypenation is fine
<Burgundavia> Madpilot: did you not get my email?
<Madpilot> Burgundavia, the long one? Yes, I did. Good beer, at least? 
<Burgundavia> yes, that was a good beer
<Burgundavia> I have not sampled the beer here
<robotgeek> might be pretty sucky in Ok
<Burgundavia> I suspect so
<Burgundavia> apparently they do sell soymilk here
<Burgundavia> a survey of radio stations:  2 hip hop, 4 regilious, 2 spanish, 3 county
<Madpilot> so you listened to the religious ones, of course, and now know that Jebus luvs you? :P
<Burgundavia> apparently so
<Burgundavia> what if I don't believe in him? does he still love me?
<mdke> yeah, that's the idea
* robotgeek got lucky then
<Madpilot> it's not like fairies, that go away when you stop believing in them ;)
<Burgundavia> dman
<Madpilot> </evil agnostic>
<robotgeek> ofcourse, not a topic for ubuntu-doc
<mdke> ok, latest offering: http://mdke.org/ubuntu/desktopguide.pdf
<mdke> Madpilot, can you scrutinise the fonts?
<Burgundavia> I am going to get a Canadian flag and darwin fish in magnetic sticker format for the next trip. Anyway, done now
* robotgeek goes to look up on the fish
* mdke sighs at fop line breaking in a middle of -> arrors
<Madpilot> mdke, looks great. All we need now are greyscale versions of the admon graphics
* robotgeek likes the [links] 
<mdke> good
<mdke> i need to figure out how to do embedded fonts too
<Madpilot> fop doesn't embed fonts automatically/
<Madpilot> ?
<mdke> not the version I'm using anyway
<mdke> oh crap, and the bloody section numbers start from zero again for each chapter, which breaks inter-chapter xrefs
<jjesse> footnotes always restart in each chapter
<mdke> that's ok though.
<mdke> the problem is where it says "refer to section 6.1", and it means "refer to section 6.1 in the previous chapter, not section 6.1 in this chapter"
<mdke> i know, we can add page number cross references
<mdke> night all
<Madpilot> night mdke 
<mhz_Dinner> Burgundavia: hi there
<mhz_Dinner> Burgundavia: could you read proof this, please?
<mhz_Dinner> https://wiki.edubuntu.org/InstallingOrBootingUsingIsoFile
* mhz_Dinner runs to kitchen to avoid his wife kicks his Chilean ass
* mhz_Dinner B back in 1 hour
<Burgundavia> mhz_Dinner: cannot do
<Burgundavia> can do
<Burgundavia> sorry, typo
<Burgundavia> mhz_Dinner: ^
<Burgundavia> mhz_Dinner: I would explain why you are doing what you are doing before you dive right in
<The_thing> http://www.wikiguitar.net/index.php?title=Main
<The_thing> PLEASE!?
<Madpilot> someone with ops please kickban The_thing? He's been spamming everywhere, and won't learn...
<The_thing> no
<The_thing> I'm not
<Madpilot> yes you are. go away.
<The_thing> No
<The_thing> Lemme guess you vandalize http://www.wikiguitar.net/index.php?title=Main
<Madpilot> I've never even heard of it before you started spamming. Now go away.
<The_thing> fine
<The_thing> Hello?
<The_thing> I'm done spamming
<Burgundavia> The_thing: thanks
<mhz> Burgundavia: you think it is not well explained?
<Burgundavia> mhz: yes
<mhz> Burgundavia: okis, I have added some clarifications. Could you check, please?
<Burgundavia> mhz: that is better
<mhz> Burgundavia: thx for your feedback
<Burgundavia> mhz: no problem
<Madpilot> hi all
<Burgundavia> hello Madpilot
<Madpilot> hi - found any good beer in OK?
<Burgundavia> nope
<Madpilot> found any beer at all? ;)
<Madpilot> There might still be some dry counties down there - just your luck to be in one of them! :D
<Burgundavia> texas is not dry
<Burgundavia> texas county, that is
<Burgundavia> there is also a canadian county and river here
<Burgundavia> salut robitaille
<robitaille> Hi Burgundavia 
<Burgundavia> Madpilot: http://sourceforge.net/projects/openexplore
<Madpilot> cool - bookmarked!
<robitaille> cool...I always wanted 7 cities of gold since I was a kid, but I actually never played the game
<Burgundavia> it is one of those games that has never been done again
<Burgundavia> it and mule are the only games I remember and want to play to this day
<Burgundavia> to bad all the c64 emulators suck
<robitaille> my  favourite c64 game was "omega race".  I wasted many hours on that one
<Burgundavia> never played it
<Burgundavia> Madpilot: remember that old game we play in SA - death race or something similar?
<robitaille> http://www.tomheroes.com/Video%20Games%20FS/Retrotimes/Best%20Of/Many%20Faces/omega_race.htm
<Madpilot> yes - land torpedos and similar goofiness
<Burgundavia> that would be a good game to redo
<Burgundavia> someone redid death rally
<rob> bush may be inpeached apparenty..
* rob realises he knows little about how the US govd' works;
<Burgundavia> rob, I seriously doubt it
<rob> http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0604/S00294.htm
<Burgundavia> impeachment is done by the senate and I think you need a super majority
<rob> there is a new chan on here about it..
<rob> yeah I would think so Burgundavia 
<Burgundavia> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impeachment_in_the_United_States
<Burgundavia> wikipedia saves all
<robitaille> and even if they impeach, it only means they would get CHeney as president in 2 years or so (it's a long process...)
<Madpilot> rob, according to that nz URL, a state senate is involved - AFAIK the states don't have authority like that over the Prez
<rob> yeah, I have no idea how it works, I'll be reading that wiki page soon :)
<Madpilot> need sleep - night, all
<LaserJock> mdke: around?
<LaserJock> jjesse: ping?
<mdke> LaserJock, not really, but I will be in about an hour. Email is better until then
<LaserJock> mdke: fine, I was just going to talk to you about bzr. I'll try emailing the list. :-)
* LaserJock doesn't care for email
<highvoltage> coz email can't buy you love
<jjesse> LaserJock: pong
<LaserJock> jjesse: just sent a reply to your bzr email
<LaserJock> jjesse: I think it would be good for us to try
<jjesse> LaserJock: just saw it
<LaserJock> I think the distributed control would be a big advantage for us
<jjesse> so instead of having to wait for someone to create username and password it speeds things up?
<LaserJock> no
<LaserJock> what I mean is:
<LaserJock> a person can get the repo and then work on it
<LaserJock> then tell someone here (or on the ML) that they have been working on the PG, for instance
<LaserJock> if they give me the URL of their branch, I can pull in the changes
<LaserJock> no diff, no attaching and waiting on the ML
<jjesse> if someone doesn't have a website can they just upload their branch? or do you upload to launchpad?
<jjesse> pardon the stupid questions but just trying to understand :)
<LaserJock> you can either use http or sftp I think
<LaserJock> no, they aren't stupid, I'm very new to this as well
<mdke> what concerns me a bit about moving to bzr is that it requires someone to merge everything for each document
<mdke> and in a group of full time paid developers, or projects where one developer is in charge of everything, that works well
<mdke> but in our group, where everyone kinda chips in on lots of docs, and people come and go according to RL commitments, I think it might get a bit out of control
<LaserJock> but if we set up a central repo then we just do as we are already, I think
<jjesse> so if i make a change to just a paragraph i have to upload the whole branch instead of just the small change?
<LaserJock> no
<mdke> last time I chatted to the bzr guys, support for a central repo ("bound branches") wasn't included yet
<LaserJock> I don't think so anyway
<LaserJock> mdke: I think you can just push to a central place, MOTU do this with tiber.tauware.de
<LaserJock> REVU is done in bzr
<LaserJock> and the central repo is on tiber.tauware.de
<LaserJock> I don't think it is quite a central repo in the traditional sense (whatever that is)
* mdke needs to find out a lot more about bzr
<mdke> i have to say though, svn diff was a really convenient way of reviewing patches
<LaserJock> you can do that also with bzr
<jjesse> is moving to bzr a bigger hurdle then using svn for new people?
<LaserJock> I'm really not sure
<LaserJock> I think the distributed revision control is a real advantage for us (I would have really liked it at least)
<mdke> why?
<jjesse> i guess i'm not understanding the why the need to switch either
<mdke> (i'm not just challenging you, I am genuinly interested in the reasons)
<LaserJock> I had diff all over the place, and I was the only person that could commit
<LaserJock> if I could just pull for each persons bzr branch (and they could pull from each other), I think that it would have been easier and faster to get diff in
<mdke> and did all those people have web servers?
<mdke> or do you not need webservers for bzr?
<LaserJock> not necessarily, I think they all did but not sure
<LaserJock> you don't have to
<mdke> bbl
<LaserJock> I mean, I'm not sure at all that we should do it. I just see some advantages that I like
<LaserJock> we need to talk to #bzr and other people who have used it for similar tasks
<jjesse> so for someone like me who is on dial up what is easier to use, svn or bzr?
<jjesse> i did big updates to svn at work
<LaserJock> hmm, I'm not sure space wise. There seem to be some thing in bzr that can take a while
<LaserJock> jjesse: I think we should just test it out
<jjesse> do you use bzr for packaging stuff?
<LaserJock> yes
<trappist> I'm pretty sure svn just sends compressed diffs - doesn't get more efficient than that
<LaserJock> right
<LaserJock> I'm talking to #bzr a little bit about it
<LaserJock> mdke: bound branches are apparently working in bzr
<mdke> jolly good
<LaserJock> but we don't need it I don't think
<LaserJock> I've been talking with #bzr, I try to send a followup email
<LaserJock> what you need for bzr is access to webspace or sftp
<LaserJock> you don't have to control the http server or anything. just copy the folder somewhere
* mdke sends off his email
<LaserJock> mdke: I just found the answer to your question ;-)
<jjesse> LaserJock: what if you don't have access to either? unless we can upload some how to launchpad?
<LaserJock> no webspace or ssh?
* mdke hugs jjesse 
<LaserJock> you can then send diffs to ML like now
<mdke> LaserJock, i suspect the answer is send a diff
<mdke> right.
<LaserJock> but I think many people might have access
<mdke> anyway, my position is "I'm not convinced, let's try and see"
<mdke> however, I'm not going to be able to put in any work on this, because I'll be swamped with translations and pdf stuff for the next month or so
<jjesse> LaserJock: i don't have a websever or an external box i could put up
<jjesse> i'm on dial up internet at home and work would frown on it
<mdke> jjesse, well... we could use doc.ubuntu.com for that
<LaserJock> yes
<jjesse> i love the fact that svn up, svn commit, svn diff are easy and i can use subversion on my windows box and linux box :)
<mdke> jjesse, me too.
<LaserJock> bzr works on windows, OSX, and linux
<LaserJock> and it is bzr pull, bzr commit, bzr diff ;-)
<LaserJock> I think
<mdke> LaserJock, do you want to take the lead and do some playing around? I definitely won't have any time
<LaserJock> yeah, I can work on it
<mdke> ok
<mdke> btw, i succeeded in making some pdfs today with embedded fonts
<LaserJock> the other cool thing about bzr is you work locally
<mdke> so do you work locally with svn
<LaserJock> well, I mean you commit locally
<LaserJock> and then publish when you want to
<mdke> yeah, but from my perspective that is bad
<mdke> because if people get sloppy about publishing, things will go downhill
<mdke> if you get 5 people who all work on the same part of a doc, then merges stop working
<LaserJock> not really
<LaserJock> that is the whole point of bzr
<LaserJock> I mean, it is at least better than svn that way
<LaserJock> not to say that if 2 people change the same thing it is magically going to figure what the right answer is ;-)
<mdke> right, but with svn, we are forced to always commit, and that way people only rarely get stuck with merging stuff
<mdke> if people are sloppy about publishing, god knows how the docbook is going to validate
<LaserJock> well, I think the point with bzr is to make the merging better so that it won't get stuck
<LaserJock> my basic suggestion is that we set up a little test repo
<mdke> sure, sure, go for it
<LaserJock> I'm really not sure if bzr would work for us or not
<LaserJock> I haven't used it enough to know
<LaserJock> but I think it is work looking at
<LaserJock> is d.u.c down?
<mdke> is it? it was down yesterday
<LaserJock> it might be my network, I'm having lots of problems today
<mdke> yeah, still down
<mdke> I mailed henrik yesterday about it
<mdke> no reply yet tho
<LaserJock> ok, I'll set up a bzr repo of something, might be just one doc (maybe I can try bzrize the desktopguide)
<LaserJock> and we can test it out
<mdke> ok
<mdke> one big question is whether we are looking at doing separate branches for different docs
<mdke> that would be really tricky, I'd be provisionally extremely against the idea :)
<mdke> so my pdfs with embedded fonts, after a while I figured out how to do it with fop (it's a total pain)
<LaserJock> yeah, I'm not sure. I'd like to do it but it might be too hard
<mdke> I made one, and discovered a bug in poppler that means evince can't read it.
<mdke> great.
<mdke> can people check out the latest pdf with embedded fonts and lemme know what they think?
<LaserJock> mdke: what is the url again?
<mdke> http://mdke.org/ubuntu/desktopguide-embedded.pdf
<LaserJock> mdke: btw, my emails are an example of why I disklike email. I'm always waaaay too verbose.
<mdke> naahhh
<LaserJock> heh, who uses evince anyway ;-)
<mdke> well, Ubuntu uses it
<mdke> hopefully they'll fix the bug quickly and we can get it into dapper
<LaserJock> I've never used evince much, last time I used it it so painfully slow
<LaserJock> it looked cool though
<LaserJock> mdke: the fonts don't show up in OSX's pdf viewer (Preview.app) but it looks good in acrobat
<mdke> interesting
<mdke> oh, does anyone have any more thoughts on SIZE of the books? 2 votes for crown quarto (18.9cm x 24.6cm) and 1 for 6x9 (15.24cm x 22.86cm) so far.
<LaserJock> mdke: what is that in inches? ;-)
<mdke> 7.44" x 9.68"
<mdke> slightly different shape I spose, a bit wider
<mdke> might be nicer for the long urls :D
<mgalvin> mdke: i think the perfect bound crown quarto seems best so +1 for me on that
<mdke> ok, i've made a pdf for crown quarto too, I'll post it
<LaserJock> +1 for crown quarto from me
<mdke> ok, it's at http://mdke.org/ubuntu as usual
<LaserJock> but I  don't have much of an opinion on it
<mdke> the page numbers come down quite a bit
<LaserJock> mdke: do we need US people to order a test?
<LaserJock> mdke: I didn't quite get why? just speed of delivery?
<mdke> it would probably cost less and be quicker
<mdke> no biggie, but if you can, that would be good
* LaserJock will have to check the budget
<LaserJock> ;-)
<mdke> that's ok, I'll pay
<mgalvin> evince doesn't seem to like that one :-/
<mdke> mgalvin, no, fraid not. It can't handle the embedded fonts
<mgalvin> what works?
<LaserJock> oh, well it isn't that much mdke, you really wouldn't need to pay
<mdke> acroread works
<mdke> LaserJock, it's only a test, I'll pay
<mdke> are the fonts too small on the crown quarto one?
* mdke hmms
<mdke> i might print a page out
<mdke> yeah, I think they are too small
<LaserJock> hmm, I didn't think it was too bad, bigger wouldn't hurt though
<mdke> i printed a page on A4 (bigger) and they look pretty small
<LaserJock> the icons are too big though, can we get smaller B&W ones?
<mdke> yes, smaller definitely
<mdke> hmm, i didn't change the font size, I wonder why they are smaller on crown quarto
<mdke> or maybe they just look smaller ;)
<LaserJock> they might just look smaller
<mdke> let's try 10.5 rather than 10
<mdke> if one can have 10.5
* mdke moves to 11
<mdke> LaserJock, btw, doc.u.c is back
<LaserJock> yeah, just noticed that
<mdke> ok, try that pdf
<mdke> oh no, that's the same one
<LaserJock> the fonts are the same sized here, btw
<LaserJock> I printed out a 6x9 and crown quarto
<mdke> on the right size paper?
<mdke> ok, new pdf uploaded
<LaserJock> I printed them on Letter without any scalling, I can overlap words on the two pages and they are the same size
<mdke> ok
<LaserJock> but the cq is just wider than the 6x9
<mdke> are they readable?
<mdke> do you think the latest one (11) is better?
<LaserJock> yes, but let me try the new one
<mdke> also, feedback on margins is good. They are quite small right now
<LaserJock> the 11 is easier on the eyes, feels more like a casual read than a highly technical manual or something
<LaserJock> I can't really say much about the margins when I'm printing on the wrong sized paper :/
<mdke> yeah, fine. Thanks
<LaserJock> but in the .pdf it looks pretty good
<mdke> i think this is pretty damn hot
<mdke> i need to embed one more font though
* mdke goes looking to see if they have replied on the fop mailing list
<LaserJock> mdke: can you install things on doc.u.c? bzr isn't on there
<mdke> yes. from the repository?
<LaserJock> yeah, what release is it running?
<mdke> 5.10
<LaserJock> yikes, maybe not then
<mdke> it's a bit early for a dist-upgrade on there
<mdke> :)
<LaserJock> sorry, I thought bzr on breezy would have been more updated, not yikes that you aren't running Dapper on a server ;-)
<mdke> ah, get a deb?
<LaserJock> yeah, I think so. http://bazaar-vcs.org/DistroDownloads has some places to get .debs
<LaserJock> I would sort of prefer jbailey's snapshots
<LaserJock> but I'm not sure if they work on Breezy
<mdke> LaserJock, if you ask around and gimme an url, I'll install it
<LaserJock> mdke: k
<mdke> damn, fop mailing list draws a dud
<LaserJock> mdke: add "deb  http://people.ubuntu.com/~jbailey/snapshot/bzr/ ./"
<LaserJock> and then "apt-get update && apt-get install bzr bzrtools"
#ubuntu-doc 2006-04-30
<mdke> LaserJock, how do I get the key for that repo?
<mdke> also:
<mdke> The following packages have unmet dependencies: bzrtools: Depends: bzr (= 0.8~200604201740-0ubuntu1) but 0.8~200603240905 is to be installed
<mdke> E: Broken packages
<LaserJock> k, just a sec
<LaserJock> mdke: I think the key is at http://people.ubuntu.com/~jbailey/snapshot/bzr/Release.gpg
<mdke> any idea how I add it?
<LaserJock> argh, I can't remember
<LaserJock> mdke: apt-key add Release.gpg
<mdke> att@hudson:~$ sudo apt-key add Release.gpg
<mdke> gpg: no valid OpenPGP data found.
<LaserJock> heh
<LaserJock> can you at least install "apt-get install bzr"?
<mdke> LaserJock, yes.
<mdke> done that
<mdke> hang on
<mdke> docbook-xml comes with some black and white admon images
<LaserJock> ok, well it looks like the bzrtools and bzr are not in sync or something
<LaserJock> but I don't know that I need bzrtool and I could build it in ~/ if I need it I think
<LaserJock> mdke: that would be nice
<mdke> /usr/share/xml/docbook/stylesheet/nwalsh/images
<mdke> except there appears to be a note.svg missing
<mdke> or at least, a black and white one
<mdke> let's use the light bulb for note too
* mdke goes off to try
<mdke> what program can use a svg? not gimp, apparently
<LaserJock> inkscape?
<mdke> downloading
<mdke> using the same icons for note/tip and caution/important is kinda silly though
<mdke> the reader is like "well why tell me about both then?!"
<mdke> we could maybe cut that bit in the preface, if we do the same for colour icons, I guess
<mdke> is there actually any difference between a "tip" and a "note" anyway??
<LaserJock> not sure :-)
<mdke> jeffsch will know
<mgalvin> "tip" should be something that may or may not related the the text directly but can be useful such as such as an alternate command to use... "note" should be some that relates to the text directly such as NOTE: this may not work on version 5
<mdke> jeffsch, what's the difference between a tip and a note
<mdke> mgalvin, ah
<mdke> yes, that makes sense
<jeffsch> what mgalvin said :)
<mgalvin> :)
<mdke> so, bearing that in mind, is it better to use the same icon for tip and note, or merge them in preface.xml?
<mdke> or, get another icon :/
<mgalvin> i would get another icon
<mdke> i dunno where from though
<mgalvin> hmm
* mgalvin pokes around for an icon
<mdke> i like these black and white ones from docbook-xsl, but they are missing a note.svg in the same style
<jeffsch> what about the icons here: http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/desktopguide/C/conventions.html
<mdke> jeffsch, they are not in black and white
<mdke> and as colour icons, they aren't transparent either
<LaserJock> can't we just black and white the ones we have?
<mgalvin> wait, yea, just make them b/w
* mdke doesn't know. He can't even get inscape to save images as pngs
<jeffsch> gimp
<LaserJock> we need a burger ;-)
<jeffsch> that is, use the gimp :)
<mdke> it doesn't seem to support svg files
<mgalvin> http://www.simplifiedcomplexity.com/images/note-bw.png
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> we need them smaller too, forgot to say
<mgalvin> how small?
<mdke> i was thinking 48x48 maybe
<mgalvin> it is i think
<mdke> so it is
<mgalvin> http://www.simplifiedcomplexity.com/images/tip-bw.png
<mdke> try warning
<mgalvin> http://www.simplifiedcomplexity.com/images/warning-bw.png
<mdke> that doesn't look too bad
<mdke> the docbook-xsl ones are a lot cleaner, but these might be ok
<mgalvin> http://www.simplifiedcomplexity.com/images/caution-bw.png
<mdke> ok, thanks. I'll build a pdf
<mgalvin> those are nice to, whatever works
<mgalvin> np
<jeffsch> maybe there's a fop setting for producing b&w output only
<mdke> ah, they need to be quite a bit smaller
<mgalvin> gimp -> image -> scale image
<mdke> http://mdke.org/ubuntu/desktopguide-bw.pdf
<mdke> but I think they will look bad if smaller, esp. note.png
<mdke> I think we should maybe make a note image based on the clean docbook ones, and use those
<mdke> http://mdke.org/ubuntu/admon
<mdke> (important.svg is a duplicate of caution.svg, and note.svg is a duplicate of tip.svg
<mdke> aha
* mdke finds gimp-svg
<mgalvin> there might be some at openclipart.org
<mdke> argh. I resized the svg's which are transparent, and it is giving them a black background
<mgalvin> lemme try with inkscape
<mgalvin> what size should they be?
<mdke> I did 24
<mgalvin> k
<mdke> they are definitely transparent, but it is fop that is giving them a black background
<mgalvin> just give em a white b/g? would that interfere with anything?
<mdke> no, i don't think so
<mdke> mgalvin, yes, that looks ok
<mdke> http://mdke.org/ubuntu/desktopguide-bw.pdf
<mdke> ok, bed time. I'll mail the list with details of what we haven't sorted out
<mgalvin> night
<mdke> thanks for your help
<mgalvin> np
* mdke has forgotten to go to bed
<LaserJock> mdke: uh oh
<mdke> ah well
<mdke> I'm not working wed->fri cos I have a course, so I only need to get through tomorrow
<LaserJock> mdke: what time is it there
<mdke> 01.20
<LaserJock> mdke: could you do something for me real quick?
<mdke> yes
<LaserJock> if I get a  dumpfile from trunk then I can play with this svn2bzr tonight
<mdke> none of us have access to the server
<LaserJock> really? k
<mdke> only elmo/znarl can get it, I think
<LaserJock> alrigh, well I did it the easy way and just exported the svn file and then added to a blank bzr repo
<mdke> ok
<LaserJock> btw, if we get rid of html then I'll have to get rid of the doc-base stuff I did
<mdke> yes, I know. :-(
<LaserJock> it is still good for Kubuntu though
<mdke> true :)
<LaserJock> I'll look at it as the glass is half-full
<mdke> I really think we should bin the html, and mdz/pitti is a strong combo
<LaserJock> I personally think it is pretty redundant to have xml, html, and then html on help.u.c
<jsgotangco> there's no use for xml in help.u.c really
<mdke> well, there isn't any there
<jsgotangco> sure
<mdke> but yeah, people can go to the website if they want html, not look for a package which doesn't have a helpful naming convention
<LaserJock> woah, ever have any of those close calls and  you adrenaline gets going?
<LaserJock> I just about hit Enter on "rm -rf *" in ~ :(
<crimsun> the cool thing is that my ~ is backed up into ~backup every 10 minutes
<mdke> good thinking
<LaserJock> crimsun: smart, very smart
<crimsun> can you tell I've done that exact rm -rf a few times too many? :)
<mdke> heh
<jsgotangco> scary though
* mdke backs up
<mdke> ok, real bed, night
<jsgotangco> night
* jsgotangco starts the day
<jeffsch> LaserJock: i just installed bzr too. I transferred styleguide to bzr without need for svn2bzr
<LaserJock> yeah, but I think svn2bzr allows us to keep the revision history
<jeffsch> ahh
<Madpilot> hi all
<robotgeek> hey
<Madpilot> hi Burgundavia - how's things in OK?
<Burgundavia> Madpilot: not bad
<Madpilot> you did the install & training today, right?
<Burgundavia> yep
<Burgundavia> I am now in Woodward
<Madpilot> another centre of world culture & liberalism?
<Burgundavia> yep
<Burgundavia> although there is a Liberal, KS
<Burgundavia> probably the only liberal in KS
<Madpilot> heh
<Madpilot> offended any locals yet with your heathen Canuckian ways?
<Burgundavia> nope
<Madpilot> amazing
<Madpilot> http://www.warbard.ca/temp/Ubuntu_Lulu_cover_draft_CQsize.png
<Madpilot> cover draft for a Crown Quatro sized book, per one of Matt's last emails
<robotgeek> Madpilot: are you on dapper, x86? with flashplayer installed?
<Madpilot> Breezy, x86, w/ Flash
<robotgeek> Madpilot: hmm, okay. np, need someone to output a string for me 
<Burgundavia> robotgeek: what do you need?
<nictuku> hi. in server guide we have: "IP addresses are defined in classes whereby the
<nictuku>                      bits making up an address correspond to network and host ranges.  There are four
<nictuku>                      principal address classes: A, B, C, and D. Class A IP addresses would typically be
<nictuku>                      used in very large organizations and have the format 
<nictuku>                      network.host.host.host whereas
<nictuku>                      the more common Class C address could be used in smaller organizations and is
<nictuku>                      often used for individual host subscribers to Internet Service Providers. A Class
<nictuku>                      C address would resemble network.network.network.host
<nictuku>                      Class D addresses are special in that they are known as 
<nictuku>                      Multicast addresses.
<nictuku>                      Some examples of valid IP addresses are 127.0.0.1 and 82.211.81.166."
<nictuku> oops
* nictuku sorry!!!!
<nictuku> i thought that was an oneliner
<nictuku> well, that information is not precise
<nictuku> are the docs freezed?
<Madpilot> yes
<nictuku> :-(
<nictuku> I've opened #41223 anyway
<Madpilot> we can break freeze for typos & errors - it'll be up to the server guide maintainers, though
<nictuku> should I send an e-mail to ubuntu-doc or something?
<Madpilot> the docteam mailing list just got a copy of your bug report, nictuku 
<nictuku> ah ok
<Madpilot> hi robitaille 
<robitaille> Ni Madpilot 
<robitaille> Hi is probably better :)
<Madpilot> Ni!
<Madpilot> I suppose you want a shrubbery, too? ;)
<robitaille> I have to watch that movie again soon.  I haven't seen it in years
<Madpilot> I own Holy Grail on VHS, actually
<Madpilot> just about the only movie I own :P
<robitaille> I have a copy taped from PBS when I was an university student.  THe quality is probably bad now
<Madpilot> http://www.warbard.ca/temp/Kubuntu_Lulu_cover_draft_CQsize.png <-- for the Kubuntu DG
<mdke> morning
<Madpilot> hi mdke 
<mdke> thanks for doing those images
<Madpilot> np - Inkscape is a pleasure to play with
<mdke> Madpilot, are you ok with cq size?
<Madpilot> of course
<Madpilot> I had just thought we were going with 6x9, that's all
<mdke> i kinda counted the votes on the ML (2/1)
<mdke> then asked in here, and most people liked CQ
<Madpilot> CQ is popular for tech books, so we might as well join in ;)
<Madpilot> just for fun: http://www.warbard.ca/temp/Xubuntu_Lulu_cover_draft_CQsize.png
<mdke> cool :D
<Madpilot> I'm not to sure about the blue/tan combo, but the Xubuntu palette is currently more limited than the Ubuntu/Kubuntu one
<mdke> Madpilot, now you're the official doc team artist, any thoughts on the "note" icons best solution?
<Madpilot> you mentioned you had some B&W versions?
<mdke> yes, except for "note"
<mdke> for now I've given "note" and "tip" the same icon
<mdke> but that's kinda a bad solution
<mdke> i'd rather (1) have a note icon, or (2) not distinguish between note/tip in the preface
<Madpilot> we do in the online/Yelp versions, so we should in all versions
<Madpilot> give me a moment, got something else I'm in the middle of
<mdke> yes, (2) would have to include the online versions
<mdke> bbl
<bhuvan> mdke: "for now I've given "note" and "tip" the same icon" -- in which document ?
<Madpilot> bhuvan, in the PDFs that're destined for Lulu
<Madpilot> gah - what do I have to do to get all the /branch SVN stuff included in 'svn up'?
<bhuvan> Madpilot, ok
<Madpilot> ...what am I missing in my svn setup? I don't have the Dapper /branch stuff coming down
<mdke> Madpilot, svn checkout https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/branches/dapper somefolder/
<Madpilot> thanks
<Madpilot> ...that's quite a scroll... ;)
<Madpilot> mdke, got some b&w admons done - uploading to my webspace now
<Madpilot> http://www.warbard.ca/temp/important.png
<Madpilot> http://www.warbard.ca/temp/note.png
<Madpilot> just changed note.png slightly - thicker borders, smaller question mark.
<Madpilot> need sleep - comments by email as needed
<mdke> Madpilot, brilliant, thanks
<Madpilot> I've got the SVGs too - one sec, I'll upload them - look for them in /temp on my site
<Madpilot> SVG for both is up
<Madpilot> g'night
<mdke> night :)
<mpt> mdke, Rosetta should be usable now
<mpt> in Konqueror, even
<mdke> mpt, rock *hugs*
<robotgeek> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/kubuntu-devel/2006-April/001146.html will be dugg
<jjesse> that's sadfl's email?
<robotgeek> yup
<jjesse> he also sent it to ubuntu-announc
<robotgeek> ah, okay. 
<mdke> dugg?
<robotgeek> mdke: yeah, someone will go and post this on digg, and people will comment (as usual)
<mdke> ah
<mdke> I hope kubuntu doesn't go too far away from ubuntu
<mdke> i like the idea that they are all one and the same
<jsgotangco> hello!
<mdke> hi jsgotangco 
<jjesse> mdke: agreed 
<jjesse> morning jsgotangco
<jsgotangco> jjesse: morning!
<robotgeek> howdy jsgotangco 
<mdke> LaserJock_away, wake up!
<mdke> trappist, any views on bug https://launchpad.net/bugs/41223
<jeffsch> mdke: are you making a bzr setup on d.u.c.?
<mdke> jeffsch, LaserJock_away was thinking about testing it out
<jeffsch> count me in
<mdke> will do, thanks
<mdke> username?
<jeffsch> i have moved styleguide to bzr for testing
<jeffsch> username jeffsch
<jeffsch> but i am having trouble getting it on my server
<mdke> jjesse, username?
<jeffsch> bzr push fails :(
<trappist> mdke: I don't have any formal education in networking, so I can't speak to whether he's right or wrong, but I do agree with his suggestion.  I don't think that kind of information really needs to be in the serverguide.
<mdke> trappist, good, thanks.
<trappist> mdke: I suppose making that change will, at worst, mean some translators will have wasted a few minutes of their lives... you want I should fix it?
<mdke> trappist, doing it now
<trappist> cool
<mdke> the SG translations aren't particularly well progressed
<trappist> I suppose that's a good thing
<trappist> sorta
<trappist> I was thinking of writing a doc on moving to 64bit computing, since I just got my first amd64 doc, but (correct me if I'm wrong) by the time it gets released it should be mostly obsolete.
<trappist> <3 my 32bit chroot
<trappist> maybe a wiki page would be more appropriate
* mdke has no idea
<trappist> well, the solution now for things like flash, w32codecs, etc. is to set up a 32bit chroot and run things like browsers and media players from there.  One of the goals for edgy is to have 32 and 64 bit environments nicely integrated so that's not necessary.
<jjesse> mdke: jjesse is fine :)
<mdke> ok
<jsgotangco> hmm ubuntu-doc bugs are coming that is good
<jjesse> shouldn't that be bad that there are problems :P
<mdke> it shows people are reading em :)
<jsgotangco> mmm
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jsgotangco> bugs are good
<robotgeek> bugs, good? nooo.
<Qrious> howdy people
<jeffsch> being aware of bugs is good
<Qrious> I have a question, if you guys have the time
<robotgeek> yeah, just kidding :)
<jeffsch> :)
<jjesse> howdy Qrious
<jjesse> Qrious: what is your questioN?
<Qrious>  I'm looking to make a wiki entry relating to manually editing refresh rates in xorg.conf
<Qrious> man I'm such an IRC noob
<jsgotangco> i don't think such a thing exists or else us at X-SWAT would have already pointed to it
<jsgotangco> maybe i should write one for debugging purposes 
<jjesse> Qrious: i don't know of one off the top of my head, nayone else?
<robotgeek> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FixVideoResolutionHowto?highlight=%28xorg%29 Qrious 
<Qrious> a ha
<Qrious> kudos to the geek with the metallic exterior
<jsgotangco> robotgeek: that is a nice page
* robotgeek remembers !fixres
<jsgotangco> there's also a page about Xorg AutoConfiguration
<jsgotangco> when autoconf fails during setup
<Qrious> I wish the wiki had better context search
<Qrious> like a keywords system
<stuii> aye
<stuii> now look here
<stuii> I cannot launch gnome-app-install
<mdke> stuii, you might want #ubuntu
<stuii> rightho
<jsgotangco> lol i could have asked him something
<Qrious> Do you guys have any need for someone who can write a nice paragraph but isn't too familiar with writing code?
<mdke> Qrious, yeah, that's what we're all about
<Qrious> charming guy that stuii
<Qrious> Last time I joined the mailing list, I got the sense I was in way over my head
<robotgeek> Qrious: we all fit that description :)
<Qrious> sweet
<mdke> we definitely like people who can write
<Qrious> Well that's my forte
<mdke> there is always lots of proof reading and such to be done
<Qrious> I'm a total grammar & spelling pedant
<mdke> you might like trappist 
<robotgeek> Qrious: i leave my speelchecking to aspell, computer knows best :P
<jsgotangco> haha
<Qrious> true, but when it comes to grammar, even Bill and his mighty hordes can't get it right
<robotgeek> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WikiToDo :)
<jsgotangco> yeah i guess you guys are not qualified to join blatant-and-awkward LP team :D
<Qrious> LP team?
<jsgotangco> Qrious: https://launchpad.net/people/blatant-and-awkward
<mdke> man, there is a team for everything nowadays
<Qrious> brilliant!
<jsgotangco> yeah next time i'll create docteam-slackers
<jeffsch> Qrious: we need lots of help with the styleguide: http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/styleguide/en/index.html
<jsgotangco> "this is the team that has been iactive for quite a while, but still lurks on the channel"
<Qrious> Holy cow
<Qrious> that's pretty extensive
<Qrious> what needs doing?
<Qrious> this is already pretty hands on by the looks of things
<jsgotangco> lots of love and review
<Qrious> A guide to style needs style adjustments?
<jsgotangco> naw probably needs more style tips
<jeffsch> yeah, it's not done yet
<jeffsch> read through it and you will see the missing bits
<Qrious> ah, just spotted a Todo
<mdke> jeffsch, we need to include some things about how we use some docbook tags too, I think
<jeffsch> yes definitely
<mdke> things like <xref linkend>, xreflabel and procedure etc
<jsgotangco> what we planned before is the styleguide becomes a chapter of a whole docteam manual
<jeffsch> http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/styleguide/en/styleguide-docbook-style.html
<mdke> the serverguide and desktopguides are miles apart, for example, when it comes to things like installing programs etc
<mdke> one says "Do this: apt-get install X", the other says "install package X (see <xref linkend="add-applications"/>).
<mdke> it would be nice to have consistency on things like that
<mdke> yeah, that section would be perfect
<Qrious> Surely the problem with writing the style guide is that I haven't a clue what is needed
<jeffsch> Qrious: http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/styleguide/en/terminology-2.html
<jeffsch> doh! a typo on that page! "do not sue the punctuation in your text"
* mdke pricks up his ears
* jeffsch looks for "this is not legal advice" boilerplate
<Qrious> ye gods, this style guide is basically "how to write wiki documentation for dummies" then
<jsgotangco> heh will i take that as good news or not?
<jsgotangco> i even hit LWN by announcing that guide
<Qrious> Well like I said, it's very hands on. It's everything you need, and more
<Qrious> It's a commendable effort, but the format is intimidating
<jsgotangco> i agree
<Qrious> The big thing about the docs system right now as far as I can tell is accessibility
<Qrious> Loads of people ask questions in the forum simply because they can't track down the entry that relates to them
<Qrious> I agree with the point about semicolons btw, nobody seems to know what they're for anymore
<Qrious> Thing is though, I'm at the stage where I should be taking notes from the style guide rather than making entries, since I don't know some of the terminology, I'm totally unfamiliar with Docbook and I haven't been around to see what the docteam are looking for
<Qrious> I'll definitely have a look at the WikiToDo though
<jsgotangco> feel free to dive in anytime
<jsgotangco> until the time you're really soaked
<Qrious> I'll probably be in over my head before long
<mdke> just ask here if you need any help
<jsgotangco> yeah Madpilot used to say that before
<jsgotangco> now he's a certified docbook geek
<jsgotangco> even managed to finish a whole guide with mdke ;)
<Qrious> Perhaps one day I can attain a similar geekdom
<Qrious> one day
<jsgotangco> its never too late
<Qrious> What about management of the structure and searchability of the wiki, how & when is that being done?
<LaserJock> mdke: I'm awake!
<mdke> phew
<mdke> now check your email
<mdke> Qrious, we're about to move the wiki documentation to its own wiki. As for searchability, no progress has yet been made to improve the moin search function
<Qrious> hold on, does xchat highlight posts that mention your name? cunning] 
<jsgotangco> Qrious: if you'd like a docbook success story, i only learned docbook here around late 2004 but im not really an advanced docbook person but i got to work with the UN for some projects involving FOSS and docbook
<Qrious> coolness
<Qrious> I'll have a go at kickstarting a few of these general guides sometime
<LaserJock> mdke: I'm on it ;-)
<mdke> LaserJock, thanks
<Qrious> catch you guys later, and thanks for the info
<mdke> LaserJock, insane. It's cheaper to ship it to me than to you
<mdke> i think we'll go with you anyway, it'll be faster, right?
<jsgotangco> huh
<jsgotangco> LaserJock: i hope you're not smuggling your lasers to london
<mdke> LaserJock, oh no, there are cheaper shipping options, cool
<mdke> ok, off it goes
<LaserJock> mdke: ok, I was getting worried
<LaserJock> jsgotangco: no smuggling here. I haven't even been to Canada even :-)
<jsgotangco> lol
<LaserJock> mdke: so how much was the shipping? and what method?
<mdke> LaserJock, 7 dollars or so? 
<mdke> actually, it was 6 dollars to me, despite the fact that it involved one more aeroplane
<mdke> crazy americans
<LaserJock> mdke: yeah, it is coming from the East Coast
<mdke> oh, i see
<LaserJock> mdke: what method? UPS ground?
<mdke> erm
<mdke> url?
* mdke finds it
<mdke> USPS Priority Mail
<LaserJock> oh, that should get here pretty quick then
<mdke> hope so
<mdke> I'll tell you when it is despatched
<LaserJock> mdke: what do you want me to do with it when I get it?
<LaserJock> read it? :-)
<mdke> well, see what it looks like
<mdke> if the printing quality is ok, formatting, and so on
<jjesse> is that for the lulu book?
<LaserJock> should I scan a few pages and post them?
<mdke> LaserJock, I dunno. Let's wait til it arrives
<mdke> jjesse, yeah
<LaserJock> mdke: yeah, I suppose I'm getting the cart before the horse :-)
<LaserJock> I just think it is quite cool
<mdke> me too
<LaserJock> mdke: still awake?
<LaserJock> mdke: I apparently need to move to the UK :-)
<mdke> LaserJock, yes, what's up?
<LaserJock> mdke: did you make accounts for jjesse and jeffsch ?
<mdke> no, I haven't yet.
<mdke> LaserJock, do you want me to do anything more than that?
<LaserJock> mdke: could you make a group (bzrdoc or something) that we all belong to?
<LaserJock> mdke: then I can chown the bzr repo to that group and we would have rw access
<mdke> jeffsch, around?
<jeffsch> mdke: yep
<LaserJock> mdke: btw, I found a pretty nifty way for people to checkout the repo, you can just make a tarball
<mdke> ok, just making the group
<LaserJock> so the initial checkout could be a 57MB download
<LaserJock> I'm not sure if that really helps the dialup users
<mdke> how do you add people to groups and only specify the NEW group?
<LaserJock> what are you using to modify the users?
<mdke> I'm open to suggestions, I was looking at usermod
<LaserJock> hmm, I would have though -G would do it but the manpage makes me unsure
<mdke> you need to specify all groups with -G, I think
<mdke> although, I have no idea whether it makes a difference
<mdke> i'm gonna read something about it
<LaserJock> mdke: just use me as a guinea pig ;-)
<LaserJock> mdke: wait, you just want to add all of us to the new group, right?
* mdke pats documentation
<mdke> matt@hudson:~$ sudo adduser laserjock bzrgrp
<mdke> Adding user `laserjock' to group `bzrgrp'...
<mdke> Done.
<LaserJock> you could also edit /etc/group
<mdke> ah
<mdke> who else wants to be involved in this lark?
<LaserJock> jjesse
<mdke> I haven't done jjesse yet because I wanted to tell him his password
<mdke> but I could mail it, I guess
#ubuntu-doc 2007-04-23
* mpt is impressed that the Ubuntu 7.04 release announcement didn't use the word "feisty" at all
<Burgundavia> part of the plan
<tonyyarusso> Did we get our non-tech-press release that covers from the ground up what this all is?
<Burgundavia> yes, via the our
<tonyyarusso> where is that?
<Burgundavia> tour, on the website
<Burgundavia> under the "find out more link"
<tonyyarusso> ah
<Madpilot> hmm?
<tonyyarusso> erm, I've forgotten how to put links in the wiki
<tonyyarusso> Like, to make "Ubuntu" link to http://www.ubuntu.com/, I thought it was [Ubuntu http://www.ubuntu.com/] 
<tonyyarusso> For things that are either external, non-camelcase, or otherwise non-standard
<Madpilot> isn't it? There's a HelpOnFormating link at the top of every Edit screen
<tonyyarusso> HOF doesn't cover it
<Madpilot> HelpOnLinks?
<tonyyarusso> Wait, found it
<tonyyarusso> URL first, then word
* tonyyarusso checked his user page
<poningru> so I wanted to bounce an idea in here
<poningru> there isnt really a server 'book' for ubuntu
<poningru> if I were to take the debian reference manual and make it ubuntufied
<tonyyarusso> Very true
<poningru> how useful would that be?
<tonyyarusso> I have the server manual (from Lulu), but wish there was a verbose version.
<poningru> oh the official one?
<tonyyarusso> yeah
<poningru> the only trouble is ubuntu dev moves waay too fast for that
<poningru> i.e upstart etc
<tonyyarusso> also true
<poningru> so should I start work on that?
<poningru> obviously base stuff has been done
<tonyyarusso> Give it a shot and see what happens anyway
<Madpilot> I don't know if the server book has been updated since Dapper, either.
<poningru> i.e explanation of distribution and how releases happen
<Madpilot> poningru, just mind the license on whatever source material you use - doc licenses are messy things.
<poningru> yeah
<poningru> this seems to be...
<poningru> WTH
<poningru>  his document may be used under the terms of the GNU General Public License version 2 or
<poningru> higher. (http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/gpl.html)
<poningru> why would they use GPL?
<poningru> debian legal killed my inner child :(
<Madpilot> debian legal does that, from what I've seen ;)
<Madpilot> Hmm, 3 of SABDFL's 5 nominees for CC are from DocTeam... revenge of the writers?
<mdke> :)
<mdke> so, what are we going to do about the website? Do we want to try and do a 7.04 tab like we did with the other releases, or can we get around the hideous task of doing that in some other way?
<Burgundavia> funny, that jerome, myself and mdke were the doc team for quite some time
<poningru> rofl
<Burgundavia> well, we can drop the 5.10 tab
<mdke> true
<mdke> but actually making a coherent website with our topic based system is going to be really difficult
<mdke> because a lot of the links break and need to be corrected, and a lot of the gnome user guide is incorporated
<kwah> hi all
<Burgundavia> hey kwah
<kwah> is somewhere outthere good and concise minimal system requirements summary page for "official" *buntu?
<kwah> is somewhere outthere good and concise minimal system requirements summary page for "official" *buntu?
<ubotu> New bug: #109284 in ubuntu-docs (main) "Help for Current Release not found" [Undecided,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/109284
<ubotu> New bug: #109341 in kubuntu-docs (main) "the localised kubuntu firefox homepage has no css style" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/109341
<ubergoober23> hello all.
<ubergoober23> I'm interested in helping with the documentation for Ubuntu.
<Burgwork> ubergoober23: welcome
<ubergoober23> i want to help. where do i start?
<somerville32> http://www.mdke.org/?p=67
<ubergoober23> great. thanks for the link. it looks like a start. l8r
#ubuntu-doc 2007-04-24
<bhuvan> are we supposed to cast our votes individually for all nominees (count: 5)?
<tonyyarusso> yeah, yes, no, or other on each one
<Madpilot> and then sabdfl gets to break ties?
<bhuvan> so, looks like, i can vote 'yes' for all docteam members!!!
<mdke> morning
<Madpilot> morning mdke
<ubotu> New bug: #109651 in ubuntu-doc "Change the  Compiz documentation website link in 7.04 help center" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/109651
<ubotu> New bug: #109719 in ubuntu-doc "erroneous information about write permission for files" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/109719
#ubuntu-doc 2007-04-25
<nixternal> anyone know who lucius is from the Xubuntu side of the doc team?
<Admiral_Chicago> nixternal: doesn' seem to be anyone like that on LP
<mdke> morning
<mdke> nixternal: https://beta.launchpad.net/~lucius-antonius
* mdke kicks svn
<bhuvan> why mdke? :)
<mdke> seems very slow. Has worked now
* mdke kicks the bot
<bhuvan> ok!
<bhuvan> afk
<poningru> bhuvan: malu?
<poningru> or tamil therima?
<poningru> err thats in tamil not in hindi ;)
<poningru> sigh... no one gets these jokes anymore :(
<bhuvan> poningru, yeah tamil
<poningru> please tell me you got the therima joke!
<poningru> I do not understand why tn has such a big loco team
<poningru> while kerela has like none
<poningru> or karnataka
<poningru> you'd thing with banglore there...
<bhuvan> i'm not aware of that joke
<mdke> hiya willvdl, welcome back
<willvdl> heya
<willvdl> thanks, looking forward to UDS/UES
<mdke> :)
<willvdl> you're at UDS right?
<mdke> nope
<popey> morning mdke
<mdke> hiya popey
* popey is going to UDS \o/
* popey is on the wagon tho /o\
* Admiral_Chicago waves fist at people going to UDS
<mdke> I have a mediation that week
<popey> what's a mediation?
<mdke> much more fun
<mdke> (not)
<popey> work thing?
<willvdl> mdke, give them all some strong tea and tell them to get along
<mdke> popey: it's where parties who have a legal dispute but don't want to go all the way to court sit around and try and get to a settlement with the help of a mediator who beats them round the head and tells them they are both wrong
<willvdl> or we'll settle it tribal style...
<popey> ahhh
<popey> you are the voice of reason?
<popey> or you are wrong? :)
<mdke> popey: no, I'm a lawyer for one of the wrong parties
<popey> ahh
<mdke> I'd like to go to a development summit one day, but I can never really spare the time
<popey> :(
<popey> well, i am of course lucky to be going this year
<Admiral_Chicago> i will hopefully go to Gutsy+1 UDS
<popey> even if i am paying for myself
* netjoined: irc.freenode.net -> brown.freenode.net
<mdke> I don't know who else is going from the doc team
<mdke> Jordan, I suppose
<popey> ah, whilst you are here..
<popey> would it be possible to get a copy of the apache2 logs on doc.ubuntu.com so i can process the /screencasts/ bit to see popularity etc?
<popey> (we were on the front page of groklaw last week by the way) :)
<mdke> we can ask.
<mdke> oh nice
<popey> as a link of the day
<mdke> I'm still chasing screencasts.u.c btw
<popey> cool
<popey> is d.u.c not yours then?
<mdke> oh yeah, course it is
<mdke> doh
<popey> :)
<popey> just add me to the adm group ;)
<mdke> not so sure about that - it's Canonical's server, not mine
<popey> ahh
<popey> i was (kinda) kidding
<mdke> popey: they are in your home dir, is that ok?
<popey> so they are
<popey> that's fine, thank you
<mdke> np
* mdke goes to work
<MehdiHassanpour> hi :-)
<MehdiHassanpour> is there a guideline like DFSG for ubuntu ?
<pwnedd> Would it be okay to make a comment / suggestion related to Ubuntu docs here?
<bdmurray> pwnedd: you might have better luck with a bug report
<bdmurray> because more people will see it
<pwnedd> okay, thanks bdmurray
<ubotu> New bug: #110013 in ubuntu-docs (main) "suggestion - easy way to request features or documentation" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/110013
<Admiral_Chicago> nixternal: I see you have built a blueprint for doc work on LP beta. what are your plans?
<nixternal> dunno yet, jjesse and myself along with Riddell and a couple of the KDE people will meet up and talk about it, hopefully this week
<mdke> got a link?
<nixternal> mdke: I think the blueprint he is referring to is either from Edgy or Feisty
<nixternal> I haven't done one for Gutsy just yet
<nixternal> although I did start a wiki page so we can start adding ideas as well as cover topics that weren't addressed as deeply as I would like
<nixternal> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KubuntuDocs/Gutsy
<Admiral_Chicago> no, the link I'm refering to is this one...
<nixternal> ... invalid url ;p
<Admiral_Chicago> https://beta.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+mentoring
<nixternal> oh, you are talking about mentoring
<nixternal> no blueprint as spec
<nixternal> s/no/not
<nixternal> I figured that would be a good mentoring bug for someone to get their feet wet in docbook/xml and documentation
<Admiral_Chicago> right. i was under the impression you write the idea of mentoring as a blueprint though
<nixternal> another goal I have during Gutsy is a revamp of the styling guide as well
<Admiral_Chicago> nixternal: someone like me (?) :)
<nixternal> I have no idea, I got an email from Mark (as did everyone else) that talked about it
<nixternal> Admiral_Chicago: do you really need mentoring though? counseling yes, mentoring I don't think so
<nixternal> ;p
<Admiral_Chicago> nixternal: true, I'm going to throw myself down with Xubuntu doc, I think I understand everything except XML format
<Admiral_Chicago> oh you jerk, I just got that
<nixternal> if you want to, I will mentor you through the ATI/NVidia binary blobs if you want to write that up. Only problem is you have 100 solutions for the same thing, oh and it has to work for everyone ;)
<nixternal> Admiral_Chicago: docbook/xml is so simple, easier than HTML truthfully.
<nixternal> then again I have been using it forever
<Admiral_Chicago> yea...binary stuff doesn't play nice with me.
<Admiral_Chicago> how did you actually register the mentoring thing
<nixternal> the option is witch each bug
<nixternal> we will see how many people come knocking on my door for that one
<mdke> nixternal: can you have a think about how we should present kubuntu docs on help.u.c/7.04 when it is ready? I'd be interested to know what you think about that. It's probably a good chance to think about how kubuntu docs fit into help.u.c in general
<nixternal> truthfully, I don't think they will fit
<Admiral_Chicago> well I'm going to offer mentorship for Fx, just not sure how to actually offer my services
<mdke> give it some thought, you don't have to say immediately
<nixternal> if anything, I would like to do a small guide/intro, and about-kubuntu if anything
<mdke> I'm in two minds myself
<nixternal> heh, I hear you there
<mdke> it's a choice between leaving Kubuntu docs to kubuntu.org, or trying to present them side by side with Ubuntu docs on help.ubuntu.com in a way which is clear and helpful
<nixternal> I will talk to Riddell and see what he says. I know we are working on redoing the Kubuntu website, so maybe I can just get the docs there
<mdke> good idea about talking to him
<mdke> maybe the whole council, it's quite an important question I think
<nixternal> speaking of which, good luck!
<mdke> thx
* nixternal already voted
<nixternal> for Mickey Mouse!
<nixternal> ;)
<mdke> :)
<mdke> I voted for him too
<nixternal> lol
<mdke> the more the merry
<nixternal> Mickey Mouse is the only thing that has ever won an election and was not on the ballot
<Admiral_Chicago> i sent in my votes too
<nixternal> that is sad, I voted for him again this year :)
<nixternal> DuPage county elections, all Republicans, which I have no problems with seeing as I consider myself a centrist with a good lean towards conservatism. but all of my choices were republican, so my dad and I both voted for Mickey
<Admiral_Chicago> nixternal: the entire city I live in could have voted for Mickey Mouse and the mayor would still win
<nixternal> that's Chicago man
<nixternal> you think dead people would vote for Mickey?
* nixternal gets back to homework at school
<Admiral_Chicago> no, thats the Daley vote
#ubuntu-doc 2007-04-26
<mdke> nixternal: around?
<nixternal> yes sir
<mdke> nixternal: o yee which is good with drupal, do you know how I remove the authoring information from pages on a site?
<nixternal> yes
<nixternal> let me fire up a drupal site here really quick
<nixternal> there is a setting in one of the admin modules that allows you to turn it off for the type of content (i.e. story, page, etc.)
<mdke> I can't find it :(
<nixternal> I am looking at 5.0 and don't see it, and I didn't see it on the fridge site either
<mdke> I'm on 5.0 too
<nixternal> maybe it was a setting in the theme (page.php, block.php, or something)
<nixternal> let me look at the source really quick
<nixternal> on my site that is
<nixternal> check out page.tpl.php file in your theme. In there you should see something around the posts section. my theme doesn't have it by default
<nixternal> ooh, let me just download a theme really quick
<nixternal> oh wait...I forgot this server has Drupal on it ;)
* nixternal gets out of irssi for 1 second
<mdke> i'll look
<nixternal> in node.tpl.php
<mdke> where is that?
<nixternal> there is a line that has $submitted, comment that out and it should remove it
<nixternal> I believe that submitted is the info you are looking to remove
<mdke> nothing like that in any of my theme files :(
<nixternal> interesting
<mdke> I don't have node.tpl.php, unless perhaps the theme includes another theme
<nixternal> hrmm, I would think it would have the node, unless $submitted is being called from another file
<mdke> I grepped in my theme directory, nothing
<nixternal> hrmm, everyone of my themes have the node.tpl.php and the submitted info in there
<mdke> AHA
<nixternal> found it?
<mdke> it's in the global settings bit of themes
<mdke> admin/build/themes/settings
<nixternal> interesting
<mdke> sorry to bother ya
<nixternal> hehe, no problem. Getting ready to head to Philosophy & Logic class, yay
<jjesse> argh
<LaserJock> hi jjesse
<jjesse> so one of my images in the official ubuntu chapter was wrong, and now i get to update all the references and all the file names :(
<jjesse> hiya LaserJock
<LaserJock> fun
<jjesse> microsoft word is such a better program then open office, i'm sorry to say
<LaserJock> yep
<LaserJock> PowerPoint is the bomb too
<jjesse> i agree w/ that one as well
<jjesse> how are things going LaserJock long time no talk
<LaserJock> I'm incredibly busy as usual
<jjesse> me 2, i'm trying to leave on vacation but can't utnil i get this ##&%#% chapter finished
<nixternal> jjesse: you got that chapter straightened out?
<nixternal> I created a spec to help us clean up the tbh for 7.10 as well
<jjesse> still finishing, how do you setup autologin?
<jjesse> cool subscribe me
<nixternal> will do
<nixternal> autologin for?
<nixternal> KDE?
<jjesse> yeah
<jjesse> it was a tip in the chpt, but things have changed in system settings and the tip is now wrong
<nixternal> I think I don't know...there is a place to do is in KControl, but I don't know where it is in System Settings
<nixternal> I am guessing under the user stuff
<jjesse> how do you do it in kcontrol?
<jjesse> found it
<nixternal> ahh
<nixternal> System Settings -> Advanced -> Login Manager -> Convenience
<XiXaQ> How do I edit the pages on https://help.ubuntu.com/6.10/ubuntu/desktopguide?
<Burgwork> jono: you pinged?
<jono> Burgwork: ahhh its cool, sorted it now :)
<Burgwork> ok
<freshblueO2> Hello. I'm going through the 7.04 Sever documentation. I'm wondering if i can help out by correcting some stuff in exchange for some help on other issues.
<freshblueO2> The section of Version Control Systems is not really working out. I've tried SVN and CVS and I'm hoping someone can help me out on this.
<freshblueO2> There are some new things in the postgresql section that need correcting. And there are a couple things in the postfix section that are different as well.
<freshblueO2> Hello abcde.... Do you have anytime to help out?
<mdke> freshblueO2: hi there. We are quite keen on gaining new contributors, and the server material in particular is in need of well-informed help! Would be great if you can help out
<freshblueO2> Thanks :) And now, i might be needing to go. When can we resume?
<mdke> freshblueO2: mailing list? also the link to my blog on the wiki has some notes on how to contribute
<mdke> on the wiki/in the topic
<freshblueO2> OK. I've got to take off now. I'll try to read up more about this tonight/tommarrow. I Look foward to talking more. Thanks
<mdke> bye
#ubuntu-doc 2007-04-27
<nixternal> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RichardJohnson/OpenWeekDocTeamNotes
<nixternal> anyone around to take a look and make sure I don't sound to stupid for tomorrow
<nixternal> thanks
<mdke> nixternal: looks very good. i've made a couple of minor changes on the wiki
<mdke> ice job
<mdke> nice job too
<n1c0las> nixternal: looks very good. As a translator I especially like your item on translations.
<shapur> Ragazzi dove posso scrivere uno script da eseguire prima della disconnessione da internet? Tipo ip-down , per andrebbe eseguito prima di disconnettersi.. grazie
<ubotu> New bug: #110553 in kubuntu-docs (main) "Spelling mistakes in file network/C/network.xml" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/110553
<nixternal> mdke: thanks for the changes!
<ubotu> New bug: #110615 in ubuntu-docs (main) "Add-applications doesn't mentions the commercial repository" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/110615
<nixternal> ubotu: the reason it does't mention the commercial repo is because there isn't one for Feisty
<nixternal> Yet...
#ubuntu-doc 2007-04-28
<ryanakca> how would I fix bug 87894 ?
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 87894 in ubuntu-doc "Server Guide - Installing from CD for Edgy" [High,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/87894
<ryanakca> I just confirmed it, and I have the sources for ubuntu-doc...
<nixternal> LAMP isn't on a Feisty CD either?
<ryanakca> nope
<ryanakca> nixternal: cd to the source dir for the server guide, edit and make a patch?
<ryanakca> or wait
<nixternal> well then, you would remove the CD section, and then either point them to a LAMP section in the guide, or create a LAMP section in the guide
<ryanakca> does that mean that there's /no/ lamp by default? or that they removed the option to have a system without lamp by default
<nixternal> ryanakca: but yes, that is how you would do it, edit the server guide, then 'svn stat > blah.diff' to create a patch
<nixternal> I have no clue what they did with LAMP
<ryanakca> hmm...
<ryanakca> #ubuntu-devel ?
<ryanakca> or where would I ask?
<nixternal> prolly
<nixternal> wait, isn't there a #ubuntu-server ?
<ryanakca> yep
* ryanakca asked
<nixternal> hehe
<ryanakca> hmm... does ubuntu have a screenshot spec?
<ryanakca> Looking around on some of the help.ubuntu.com and the ubuntu.com pages... Screenshots are vastly different in quality. Some have backdrops, others don't, Some have different resolutions even
<ryanakca> [22:24:20]  <mralphabet> ryanakca: during the install it asks you if you want to install dns and/or lamp
<ryanakca> nixternal: ^^
<nixternal> ryanakca: I noticed that in the link you added to the bug report that you are prompted to install either dns, lamp, or both
<ryanakca> yeah
<MehdiHassanpour> hi :-)
<MehdiHassanpour> I'm looking for an article about `why people should choose ubuntu'
<MehdiHassanpour> any one can help...
<ukubuntu> Hi all, is there processes developing the Ubuntu.org documentation for Feisty as it is Documentation for Ubuntu 6.10 (Edgy Eft) atm
<ukubuntu> https://help.ubuntu.com/
<ukubuntu> or is it best to wait for mdke? perhaps he/she can look into this when back
<ukubuntu> This is perhaps one area where a novice like me could help, updating such docs
<ukubuntu> If I am not in irc you can send me a pm here http://ubuntuforums.org/member.php?u=183382 or here http://fullcirclemagazine.org/index.php?action=pm;sa=send;u=898
<ukubuntu> I am guessing it is a cannonical issue in part.
<ukubuntu> Anyone in the room now to discuss feisty docs on canonical?
<ukubuntu> https://help.ubuntu.com/ is the issue
<ukubuntu> sorry I had a cable disconnect
<ukubuntu> Anyone in the room now to discuss feisty docs on canonical?
<ukubuntu> https://help.ubuntu.com/ is the issue
<mpt> ukubuntu, if you mean that it doesn't redirect to http://... and should, report a bug on the ubuntu-website project, and it will end up at the right place
<mpt> if you mean that it's showing 6.10 stuff instead of 7.04 stuff, I think that problem's already reported
<mdke> ukubuntu: we have a bug on it already under ubuntu-docs
<ryanakca> nixternal: hmm... seems to be fixed in SVN already
<mdke> it's fixed in feisty too, ryanakca, afaics
<ryanakca> mdke: ?
<ryanakca> bug.. umm... server guide?
<mdke> I guessed that you are talking about the same bug I saw you talking about in the scrollback
<mdke> about LAMP in the installation section of the serverguide
<ryanakca> yep
<mdke> seems to me it is fixed in the feisty version
<ryanakca> kk
<ryanakca> so, mark bug as fix released?
<mdke> I'd say so
<mdke> have a look at file:///usr/share/ubuntu-serverguide/html/en_GB/installing-from-cd.html and see if you agree
<ryanakca> kk, and for the 6.10 server guide?
<ryanakca> (since that's what the bug applies to)
<mdke> we won't bother fixing that, it's not serious enough
<ryanakca> kk
* ryanakca goes back to looking for doc things needing to be done
<mdke> plenty of those!
<ubotu> New bug: #110863 in ubuntu-docs (main) "ubuntu-serverguide doesn't install C/ locale" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/110863
<mdke> anyone can confirm that, I'd be grateful
<mdke> ryanakca: one great thing to do would be to have a look at the official Ubuntu book and see if there are some useful things that aren't included in our system docs, and file bugs about them or do some patches
<ryanakca> mdke: official ubuntu book... That printed book by Corey, jono, etc?
<mdke> that's right
* ryanakca doesn't have one
<ryanakca> but... if you want to send me a copy, I'd be eternally grateful :)
<mdke> ryanakca: it's in our svn somewhere
<mdke> yes, under trunk/teamstuff
<ryanakca> yep, found it
<ryanakca> I guess there's only .odt, and no .pdf/html?
* ryanakca looks around
<mdke> https://help.ubuntu.com/6.10/book/book-toc.html <-- couple of the chapters
* ryanakca nods
<ryanakca> brb
<ryanakca> thanks
<mdke> no worries, give us a shout if you need more help
<ryanakca> will do
#ubuntu-doc 2007-04-29
<RockRebel> Hello, I would like to join your team.
<LaserJock> cool
<RockRebel> I was going to send an email out to you guys on the Kubuntu website, but I joining this channel is easier. How do I get started?
<LaserJock> well, it kinda depends on what you're interested in
<LaserJock> generally you'll find info at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/GettingStarted
<RockRebel> I'm interested in writing documentation for software, or even to improve the actual Kubuntu OS documentation would be interesting as well
<LaserJock> well, application specific documentation is written by the program's authors and the KDE doc team
<LaserJock> we have a pretty nice Kubuntu doc team
<LaserJock> jjesse and nixternal are the main guys to talk to there
<RockRebel> cool, thanks. I'm in the middle of downloading Kubuntu right now. I am also going to compile the beta code for KDE 4. Has the interface changed much in KDE 4 since its inital release?
<LaserJock> not really sure to be honest
<RockRebel> cool
<RockRebel> i will give it a try
<RockRebel> Could I join the KDE doc team?
<tonyyarusso> nixternal: ^^
<RockRebel> I can't seem to message him directly. I think I have to register.
<tonyyarusso> ya
<mdke> morning
<ukubuntu> morninmdke, thank you for your note on the docs on the website, sorry, was watching Doctor Who :$
<mdke> damn, missed it
* mdke goes to see if it's online
<ukubuntu> not yet I think
<mdke> rats
<ukubuntu> No worries, it'll come
<ukubuntu> thanks for keeping it in mind :)
<mdke> I was talking about the dr who episode. I know about the website :)
<ukubuntu> hehe
<ukubuntu> ttfn
<froud> ping Burgundavia Burgwork
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-doc.log
* #ubuntu-doc  [freenode-info]  channel flooding and no channel staff around to help? please check with freenode support: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#gettinghelp
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-doc.log
<mdke> froud: it's the middle of the night for him
<froud> mdke: yah, just taking a chance :-)
<froud> mdke: how r u?
<mdke> froud: fine thanks. Busy! you?
<froud> froud: great, always rocking trying to contrib upstream at kde-docs but not having much time to do it
<mdke> yeah
<froud> I see many contribs to kde upstream docs did not get into 7.04
<mdke> why is that?
<froud> dunno, I just see that because I looked for my contribs and they are not in. Including a whole manual for Kompare
<froud> Ah well
<froud> mdke: so you a member of the bar yet?
<mdke> yes, more or less
<froud> mdke: practicing yet?
<mdke> I'm working as a lawyer, but not as a barrister
<froud> ok kewl stuff
<froud> what type of law you doing?
<mdke> commercial litigation
<mdke> international trade and shipping litigation really
<froud> whew, Interesting, and you have time to be here :-) you're amazing dude
<mdke> it's a Sunday :) But yeah, I've been getting busier and busier
<mdke> it's quite fun, but Ubuntu is more fun
<mdke> gtg clean the garage now, cya soon
<froud> I am sure it is
<froud> c ua
<ubotu> New bug: #111118 in ubuntu-doc "kubuntu wont recon floppy " [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/111118
#ubuntu-doc 2008-04-21
<ubotu> New bug: #220049 in ubuntu-docs (main) "Tech Report For migratingdata.xml" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/220049
<rohan> http://www.ubuntu.com/news/ubuntu-8.04-lts-desktop ---> shouldn't it say "Myth TV, the open source TVR," PVR instead of TVR?
<rohan> or DVR
<yeager|> have the Firefox start page in hardy been changed?
<yeager|> to http://start.ubuntu.com/8.04/
<yeager|> mdke, do you know anything about the Firefox start page?
<cr3> hi folks. I would like to submit a change to hwtest before release and pitti suggested I come here for your approval.
<cr3> the problem is that the current release of hwtest submits information such as installed packages without the knowledge of the user.
<cr3> this has resulted in bug #201336 in which someone says "Wow! This pisses me off!" and "I don't tolerate this kind of !@#$".
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 201336 in hwtest "report contains package information" [Undecided,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/201336
<cr3> so, I have fixed the problem by showing a summary of the information before submission. this is nothing detailed, just a simple summary: The following information will be sent [blah blah]. Distribution details, Device information, Processor information, Packages installed, Test results.
<cr3> what pitti needs from you folks is basically your approval (or disapproval :) to get this change into hardy :)
<sommer> cr3: this channel is usually pretty quite, you'll probably have more luck sending a message to the doc ml
<sommer> additionally some key members of the doc team aren't on irc very much, if at all
<cr3> sommer: thanks for the tip, I have just sent a message to the ml
<cr3> (time is of the essence :)
<sommer> cr3: ya, usually this channel has the most traffic after business hours in Europe and North America :)
<jjesse> hello sommer
<sommer> hey jjesse
<cr3> sommer: nice, dedicated folks working after work :)
<jjesse> we actually have no life :)
<sommer> heh, I concur
<sommer> cr3: just read the email, your proposal looks good to me
<jjesse> looks good to me
<sommer> probably want to wait for someone who knows more about translations than I do though
<sommer> I'd think that'd be the biggest issue at this point... so close to release and all
<cr3> sommer: that's not really my call whether it should be included so late in the release, but I thought that pissing people off might be worth mentionnning
<sommer> cr3: heh, sure
<cr3> sommer: if I had to choose between not having a summary of the submitted information and not having translations for that summary, I'd go for the latter. It's not the best kind of situation but I think it limits damages the most :(
<sommer> cr3: I agree, makes sense to me
<kirkland> mdke: fyi, i worked on the doc search a little more this weekend, fleshing out the wiki page, launchpad blueprint, etc.
<kirkland> mdke: I also created a FF/IE browser search plugin, installable from the search page
<kirkland> mdke: and customized the Ubuntu logo for some eye candy ;-)
<bamed> matt, you there
<mdke> bamed: yes
<mdke> kirkland: cool will take a look
#ubuntu-doc 2008-04-22
<ubotu> New bug: #220439 in ubuntu-doc "error in command line how to documentation" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/220439
<mdke> morning all
<mdke> sommer: is there any way you can talk to the people who do the server team team report, and get it to be a bit more concise? The idea is to list briefly achievements made by a team, but each time the server report is really long... we don't need stuff about how people are thinking about doing something or looking into something else
<mdke> sommer: don't get me wrong, I think it's good that the server team is actively contributing to the initiative, but it needs to be easier to read
<john_> Hi All, I have a question about updating the wiki - I have just upgraded my development machine to Hardy running on Athlon64, and hit a couple of nasty but easily-solved problems with mysql and java/eclipse
<john_> I thought I should probably add these to the user doc / help pages?
<john_> should I just jump in and do it or is there someone I should be getting a 2nd opinion from first?
<sommer> mdke: just to double check is this the type report you mean: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/ReportingPage/2008-04 ?
<sommer> mdke: which then goes to: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TeamReports
<sommer> mdke: ah, just checked out the march server team report... I see what you mean, I'll bring it up at the team meeting tomorrow
<mdke> sommer: thanks, and yeah - I think the month could also do with some love
<mdke> sommer: the/this
<mdke> cody-somerville: any news of my xubuntu-docs package?
<cody-somerville> mdke, hmm?
<janimo> will ubuntu-docs have updates after the release? any chances for a new translation of the firefox-index page to get in?
<ubotu> New bug: #220762 in ubuntu-docs (main) "package ubuntu-docs 8.04.2~hardy failed to install/upgrade: subprocess post-installation script returned error exit status 139" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/220762
<ubotu> New bug: #220780 in ubuntu-docs (main) "Hebrew translation of the Ubuntu welcome page translates the name of all latest distros as Dapper" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/220780
<LaserJock> mdke: did you do something to edubuntu-hardy
<LaserJock> ?
<mdke> LaserJock: yeah, per mailing list. it should be working now though
<mdke> LaserJock: i have to go to bed now, but if you have any issues please email and I'll respond in the morning
<LaserJock> mdke: it says that 9 revisions were removed
<LaserJock> mdke: should I re-push my branch?
<mdke> LaserJock: ah crap, yes please. Sorry
<LaserJock> mdke: ok, just wasn't sure
<mdke> LaserJock: there is a bug in bzr1.4 that means that pushes from one format to another are very slow - best to use 1.3 if you can or just be patient if your local branch is the old format
 * mdke beds
#ubuntu-doc 2008-04-23
<ubotu> New bug: #220761 in evolution (main) "package evolution-common 2.22.1-0ubuntu3 failed to install/upgrade: subprocess post-installation script returned error exit status 139 (dup-of: 220762)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/220761
<ernie> I'm trying to upgrade my kubuntu to Hardy, following the instructions at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/HardyUpgrades/Kubuntu and I never see a "version Upgrade" button. Do I have to wait for the final release?
#ubuntu-doc 2008-04-24
<ubotu> New bug: #190714 in ubuntu-doc "Managing DNS Entries section of ubuntu serverguide has a 404 on sample resolv.conf" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/190714
<ubotu> New bug: #221324 in ubuntu-doc "out-of-date wiki page linked from system guide: desktop effects" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/221324
<Kamping_Kaiser> isnt that a bug in the page? :0
<nijaba> hello
<nijaba> anybody knows when help.ubuntu.com is going to move to 8.04?
#ubuntu-doc 2008-04-25
<sommer> nijaba: good question
<mdke> nijaba: it will take about a week I guess
<nijaba> mdke: really?  why is it so long?
<nijaba> mdke: anything we can do to speed it up?
<mdke> nijaba: not really, it just takes a lot of work
<nijaba> mdke: and can I help in the work?
<mdke> nijaba: maybe it can be done by the end of the weekend, then a few days to upload it
<mdke> nijaba: no, I don't think so - it's a one person job
<nijaba> mdke: okay, so I should wish you good luck then :)  sorry for the disturbance
<mdke> thanks for the offer though
<ubotu> New bug: #221819 in ubuntu-doc "UbuntuHashes page does not have hashes for 8.04" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/221819
<ubotu> New bug: #220889 in ubuntu-docs "wrong 8.04 codename in Korean start page" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/220889
<bamed> !help core
<ubotu> Sorry, I don't know anything about help core - try searching on http://ubotu.ubuntu-nl.org/factoids.cgi
<bamed> !help
<ubotu> I am ubotu, all-knowing infobot. You can browse my brain at http://ubotu.ubuntu-nl.org/factoids.cgi - Usage info: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBots
<psanchez> Hello, may I suggest something to add to the upgrade notes?
<psanchez> Anyway, in case someone reads this later on, I'd like to know what is the recommended way to update a Ubuntu desktop "remotely", via a ssh session, with no GUI. Would the instructions for upgrading a Ubuntu server apply?
<bamed> sudo do-release-upgrade
<psanchez> OK, it would help to add a one-liner confirming this on the web page. Thank you.
<bamed> it's on http://www.ubuntu.com/getubuntu/upgrading under "Network upgrade for Ubuntu servers"
<psanchez> Yes, "for Ubuntu Servers" but I'm asking whether this procedure is also valid for Ubuntu "Desktops".
<seisen> what the sudo do-release upgrade?
<psanchez> Yes
<bamed> it works for desktop too
<seisen> the only reason they recommend using update-manager for the desktop is because its available
<psanchez> Good, that's what I'm suggesting you confirm in the web page. In my case, I want to remotely upgrade my mom's PC and I was looking for the recommended way to do it via ssh.
<bamed> I see your point
<seisen> I they basically do the same thing except one uses a gui and one doesn't
<seisen> you will get a warning when upgrading with ssh
<psanchez> That's the point. My mom lives abroad and I don't want to upgrade her machine using a GUI. Just addning a note saying that do-release works for the desktop edition as well would help.
<psanchez> A harmless warning?
<seisen> it just warns that you ssh session do end prematurely and opens up another ssh connection just in case
<seisen> I upgraded a server that way and it never did disconnect so.....
<psanchez> OK, whatever. I just wanted to suggest to make an explicit note available on the upgrade page talking about this and saying what the recommended way to do it is.
<bamed> I suggest running it inside screen, in case you do get disconnected, if you're going over SSH
<psanchez> That's a good suggestion (one more line to add to the web page :-)
#ubuntu-doc 2008-04-26
<dsas> mdke: I'm sort of assuming you either figured out your problem filtering lp mail last year, or you quit using gmail. but bug 133720 has a good workaround
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 133720 in malone "Prefix subject in emails sent by LP" [Medium,Won't fix] https://launchpad.net/bugs/133720
<mdke> dsas: yes, I filter ok now
<mdke> dsas: although, that workaround is nicer :)
<dsas> :), I came across your list post while googling for the answer myself.
<dsas> (just moved to apps-for-your-domain)
<mdke> dsas: what's that?
<dsas> you can keep your domain name and jabber id for your personal domain, but let google do all of the work.
<mdke> aha
<nixternal> I added our team report for april
<mdke> nixternal: wasn't there one already? I added some stuff during the week, I thought
<mdke> nixternal: ah, yes. We have a dup now, I'll remove it
<mdke> nixternal: actually you have the lock, can you remove it?
<nixternal> ya, I just seen that
<nixternal> and removed what I added :)
<mdke> thanks
<nixternal> no problem
<LaserJock> mdke: sorry for messing up your conversion the other day
<LaserJock> mdke: I had assumed you were done
<mdke> LaserJock: no worries
<mdke> LaserJock: it takes quite a long time to delete the .bzr folder via lftp so I left it running overnight
<LaserJock> it was weird because http worked fine
<LaserJock> it was just bzr+ssh that didn't work
<mdke> LaserJock: that's because launchpad doesn't mirror a broken branch to http
<mdke> but bzr+ssh gets you to the writeable area, which is where I was working
<LaserJock> ah
<ubotu> New bug: #222706 in kubuntu-docs (main) "Lots of duplicate entries in KDE Help Center when opening "About Kubuntu"" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/222706
<LaserJock> mdke: are the doc.ubuntu.com docs being built from the intrepid branches?
<mdke> LaserJock: probably not, i'll fix it later
<LaserJock> mdke: I'm just working on the edubuntu-intrepid branch
<LaserJock> trying to redo the structure
<mdke> cool
 * mdke out for a bit, back soon
<LaserJock> right now I have two makefiles
<LaserJock> k
<LaserJock> Makefile and edubuntu/Makefile
<LaserJock> I'm not sure if I need both or just edubuntu/Makefile
<mdke> LaserJock: what I did for ubuntu was to ditch the one in the top directory, and use ubuntu/Makefile - the other one was for old stuff.
<LaserJock> ok, that's what I figured
<LaserJock> I just wasn't sure if maybe that was used by the doc.ubuntu.com script
<LaserJock> I'm still not sure how I'm gonna handle the common libs/
<LaserJock> I like that you put all the various tools in scripts/
<mdke> LaserJock: it isn't as convenient as having them in the top dir, but it's tidier ;)
#ubuntu-doc 2008-04-27
<ubotu> New bug: #222965 in ubuntu-docs (main) "package ubuntu-docs 8.04.2~hardy failed to install/upgrade: subprocess post-installation script killed by signal (Interrupt)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/222965
<ubotu> New bug: #222987 in ubuntu-docs (main) "broken link to gthumb documentation" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/222987
<ubotu> New bug: #222990 in ubuntu-docs (main) "misuse of ghelp links in internet and musicvideophotos" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/222990
<ubotu> New bug: #222997 in kubuntu-docs (main) "package kubuntu-docs 8.04-3 failed to install/upgrade: " [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/222997
<RoAkSoAx> hello there, anyone around?
<j1mc> hi RoAkSoAx
<RoAkSoAx> hi j1mc , need help here, i was wondering if packaging guide is managed by the documentation team?
<j1mc> hi RoAkSoAx ... sorry, stepped away.
<j1mc> hmm... i don't think that it is.  let me check the revision history
<RoAkSoAx> ok cool, cause i've seen the spanish packaging guide on 6.06 documentation, at is partially translated and i was wondering if it is managed in LP for translations or by the DOC team
<j1mc> RoAkSoAx: it looks like it is maintained by Daniel Holbach and Jonathan Riddell, who are not part of the doc team
<j1mc> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide/Complete?action=info
<j1mc> RoAkSoAx: were you thinking of something else?
<RoAkSoAx> ok, nah, but i was thinking about this: https://help.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/packagingguide/es/
<j1mc> hm... ok
<j1mc> i'm not a senior member of the doc team, so you may want to send a note to the doc team mailing list
<RoAkSoAx> that packaging guide is the one created on 6.06, and i was wondering if that is available for translations on LP or was managed by the DOC team
<j1mc> yeah, i'm not sure.  :)
<j1mc> the help.ubuntu.com site is for community-developed documentation, though, so my guess is that it wouldn't be in LP.
<RoAkSoAx> are community-developed documentation available for translations?
<j1mc> RoAkSoAx: well, it is the wiki, so you would just translate the page onto a new wiki page.  that would be my approach, but you may want to send a note to the mailing list to see if there's a set way of doing things.
<RoAkSoAx> j1mc, yeah i'll do that, i'll also try to talk with dholbach and see if it is possible to add the packaging guide to the documentation, and put it available for translation so that way everyone can learn ubuntu packaging in their own language :)
<j1mc> RoAkSoAx: ok.  i hope i've been helpful.  i'm sure others know more about this than i do.
<RoAkSoAx> j1mc, yeah you've been , thanks :)
<mdke> j1mc: did anything happen to that xubuntu-docs package I prepared?
<j1mc> mdke: i talked about it with cody, i thought that he was going to upload it.  did it not happen?
<ubotu> New bug: #223219 in xubuntu-docs (universe) "Tech Review for config-desktop.xml" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/223219
<cody-somerville> j1mc, I don't remember you asking me to upload a xubuntu-docs package.
<cody-somerville> j1mc, However, if you can give me a link, I'll do an SRU Monday.
<j1mc> cody-somerville: i just fwd'ed my message to you.
<cody-somerville> Okay.
<cody-somerville> I'll get it uploaded to Hardy on Monday.
<j1mc> thanks.  :)
<j1mc> sorry for not following up on it with you
<cody-somerville> No problem.
<mdke> cody-somerville: thanks
<cody-somerville> mdke, thanks for helping Jim :)
<mdke> np
<mdke> kirkland: around?
<mdke> kirkland: for when you are... would it be ok to edit the search spec with some of the points I raised by email? I don't know whether you intend it to be a "free for all" spec or want to keep control of it yourself
<ubotu> New bug: #223328 in ubuntu-docs (main) "upgrading to hardy package ubuntu-docs 8.04.2~hardy failed to install/upgrade: problemi con le dipendenze - lasciato non configurato" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/223328
<jjesse> hello
<jjesse> stupid autojoin was set to #ubuntu-docs
<jjesse> i always confuse kde-docs and ubuntu-doc
<mdke> heya jjesse
<mdke> just off to bed myself, see you!
<jjesse> hello mdke
<jjesse> gnight then :)
#ubuntu-doc 2009-04-20
<cody-somerville> mdke, ping
<mdke> cody-somerville: (In case I'm not around at the moment, please provide a bit of information about what you want and I will respond when I get back)
<cody-somerville> mdke, For translations of Xubuntu, how should I handle the case where there is no translations at all for a particular chapter?
<cody-somerville> The problem is that if there is no translations at all for a chapter, no PO file from launchpad, so no xml gets generated
<cody-somerville> and naturally when we run xsltproc --xinclude on index.xml, we run into problem
<cody-somerville> mdke, Also, how can I have the &lang thing populated automatically and correctly?
<ikeborg> sapete se esiste internamente alla comunitÃ  di ubuntu qualche progetto che lavora alla creazione di una distribuzione per la pubblica amministrazione?
<pradeep> hi! I am completely new to this
<pradeep> and i want to inolve in ubuntu doc tech review
<pradeep> i regestered in lanchpad
<pradeep> but how i'll be assingned to work?
<pradeep> could any one help me
<cody-somerville> No one seems to be around right now pradeep
<cody-somerville> Try e-mailing the mailing list
<pradeep> ok
<mdke> cody-somerville: that's a knotty problem
<mdke> cody-somerville: I think the -l flag to xml2po may help for the second question, but for the first question I can't think of anything better than creating a list of all translated locales and running the translate.sh script for all documents and all languages
<mdke> cody-somerville: that way, each locale will have a translated xml file for each document, even if it's all in English
<mdke> cody-somerville: I suppose one way of getting a list of locales to use would be by reference to translations that exist of the index file itself
 * cody-somerville nods.
<mdke> cody-somerville: it's reasonable not to generate translations for languages which haven't got a translated index template
<mdke> nhandler: nice post
<nhandler> Thanks mdke
#ubuntu-doc 2009-04-21
<nhandler> mdke: Thanks a lot for filling up my inbox ;)
<mdke> nhandler: hmm?
<nhandler> mdke: You just edited half the wiki
<mdke> nhandler: that goes in your inbox???
<mdke> anyway, yeah I've been doing some housekeeping :)
<Rocket2DMn> I'm interested to see how the doc team progresses after we have finished this housecleaning effort
<Rocket2DMn> I think it's going to be a fun summer
<Rocket2DMn> I'm pumped :)
<mdke> :)
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, I'm not sure I can commit to the OpenWeek wiki session
<Rocket2DMn> I may be able to make it and answer some questions, but I can't guarantee that I can have prep time to help prepare a session
<Rocket2DMn> Too many things happening with work and life and all that, and I might be moving around that time
<Rocket2DMn> I'd be happy to review anything you have and provide some input on it though if you'd like
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: not to worry, I appreciate the offer of help, I will probably take you up on it :)
<Rocket2DMn> cool
<mdke> man it's got late
<mdke> amazing how easy it is to edit wiki pages in bed
<Rocket2DMn> amazing how easy it is to edit wiki pages and not go to bed!
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> that too
<mdke> it's funny, some people have a good vibe about the discussions going on at the moment, and others don't
<mdke> :(
<Rocket2DMn> thats true mdke , but when you get lots of input, I think that is bound to happen
<Rocket2DMn> overall I think we are moving in a positive direction
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: let's hope so, optimism is the best policy
<Rocket2DMn> heh, I know I keep bugging you about this, but I think you need to make a new thread on the forums for getting people involved
<mdke> anyway, night
<Rocket2DMn> gnight
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: yeah. keep bugging me. I'd really like to have a mirror of the ubuntu-doc list on the forum with a sticky about getting involved
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: but I gave up pestering Ryan about it after the first couple of years, dunno if you would have more luck
<Rocket2DMn> I can stick whatever you want
<Rocket2DMn> I'm forum staff
<mdke> I mean the mirroring bit
<Rocket2DMn> you mean you want the emails to be posted on the forum somewhere?
<Rocket2DMn> I think you're confusing me
<mdke> yes, back in the old days it used to be done for the ubuntu-devel list
<mdke> so that each mailing list thread appeared as a forum thread
<mdke> I'd love something like that for the ubuntu-doc list, but I don't know if the functionality for doing it has been lost
<Rocket2DMn> I don't think that will fly these days, they are working on simplifying the forums, they won't want to add anything like that
<Rocket2DMn> Sorry
<mdke> ok, I appreciate the wish to simplify
<Rocket2DMn> I think having an up to date thread in Tutorials and Tips will help, and perhaps one in the Development section at a key time in the dev cycle might catch some users, too
<mdke> ok
<Rocket2DMn> you can go to sleep now :) peace
<mdke> ok, really good night now
<j1mc> later, mdke
<mdke> morning all
<bhuvan> hi mdke, morning!
<mdke> hi there bhuvan
<persia> mdke, At least my laptop can boot from SD (figuring this is a better forum)
<persia> Where it gets tricky is that I don't know if we have any tools that can extract the contents of .iso images and put them on SD cards for internal readers today.
<persia> I know usb-creator currently only supports USB-attached storage.
<mdke> persia: sorry didn't notice you had joined here
<persia> mdke, Understood: I'm rarely here, but thought it was only appropriate if I'm trying to write docs :)
<mdke> persia: very pleased to have you indeed
<persia> I can't promise much time :)
<mdke> persia: ok, I see. what do you think about my last email then (except for the question about isos, which you've now answered)
<persia> That aside, I'm just reading your email.
 * mdke nods
<persia> While there are deficiencies in the tools, I'm not sure there's a lot of difference between various ways to attach flash media to a device.
<persia> So, some tools are buggy, and can't write to USB or non-USB, etc.
<persia> Or can't read .iso files or .img files.
<persia> But I'm not sure that the total experience is that different.
<persia> I still want a landing page, and based on your last email will create one (FromImgFiles), but I wonder if it's not worth reviewing the available tools, filing bugs, and trying to have a consistent solution for each of Ubuntu, foreign Linux, Windows, and Mac OS X that just does the right thing.
<mdke> that would be a laudable long-term aim, definitely
<mdke> although usb-creator's name in particular suggests a limited scope :)
<mdke> ideally, there would be one tool for burning iso and img files to any media on all OSs :)
<mdke> but that's a big project, I guess
<mdke> in the short term, i guess we'll just have to do what we can
<mdke> ok, I have to scoot off to work now, I'm be on email though
<mdke> catch you later and thanks again for the work
<mdke> persia: remind me at some stage to talk to you about bluetooth documentation too... :)
<persia> heh.  I've not followed bluetooth so closely this cycle, but I ought to be able to test stuff and help with that next week sometime.
<persia> Have a good day, and I'll go poke some upstreams to try to get a tool working.
<mdke> thanks :)
<cody-somerville> mdke, Has a spec been scheduled for UDS yet?
<persia> I've gotten some feedback that the term "flash media" used at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Installation/FromImgFiles is confusing.  Does anyone have any recommendations on a good way to rephrase?
<cody-somerville> removable media?
<persia> Well, except CDs and DVDs are also removable, and you can't write .img files to them.
<cody-somerville> Sure
<cody-somerville> but Windows doesnt refer to CDs and DVDs as removable media IIRC
 * cody-somerville is thinking of the removable media icon in the system tray
<persia> Hrm.  I'm not sure I want to adopt Windows nomenclature when it conflicts with the traditional interpretation of English.
<cody-somerville> I think you should say removable media and then explain how ISO files write to cds/dvds and this img file is for usb thumb drives, SD media, <insert other examples here>, etc.
<persia> Yeah, I suppose I'll have to do that: I was hoping to avoid the explanation.
<cody-somerville> OR better yet, just forget about SD cards
<cody-somerville> And give instructions on how to install from USB Thumb Drives
<persia> Well, the instructions aren't actually any different (except for some card readers that don't report the insert event)
<cody-somerville> And then create another page for SD Cards and just have it redirect to USB Thumb drives
<cody-somerville> Or another option is to go from the angle of "installing Ubuntu when CD/DVD isn't an option". Then you don't have to get technical, just say "If you can't install from CD/DVD, you can also do so using a usb thumb drive, SD card, or other types of removable media..."
<cody-somerville> mdke, What do you think of getting rid of docbook and just using the wiki for documentation?
<persia> cody-somerville, Except this isn't about the media used: it's about the format of the downloaded file.
<persia> Depending on the download, people may well want this even when they have an optical drive available.
<mdke> cody-somerville: on your first question, not to my knowledge. did you have a particular subject in mind? traditionally our specs don't get scheduled for UDS, because there aren't enough doc contributors attending
<mdke> cody-somerville: on the second question, i think it would be nice, but can't see my way to how it could happen
<mdke> cody-somerville: a sound system of importing documents from the wiki to the desktop help system is pretty difficult to achieve, at least for Gnome
<mdke> upstream hasn't managed it, and they are working in a different direction at the moment (a simpler markup than docbook)
<mdke> cody-somerville: maybe someone could pull it off though, I don't know
#ubuntu-doc 2009-04-22
<cody-somerville> mdke, moinmoin wiki supports exporting docbook, is that an option?
<dsas_> cody-somerville: that has been mentioned before I think. I'm not sure if there was a problem with the docbook produced or we were running an old version of moin or something.
<dsas_> this was several cycles ago.
<dsas_> probably worth investigating again
<Atamira> anyone awake?
<mdke> cody-somerville: the export is a bit dodgy so needs some work, but it might be possible to improve it. I think it's worth investigating again as dsas_ says
<cody-somerville> mdke, I did some research last night briefly on the topic
<mdke> cody-somerville: how did it go?
<mdke> the main info is listed here: http://moinmo.in/DocBook
<mdke> it was a gsoc project that did most of the work going forward, we'd need to try out 1.7 to see whether it is suitable
#ubuntu-doc 2009-04-23
<l3on> HI all, the ubuntu-doc/jaunty bzr will be update? there are a lot of problems (such as a wrong index.html)...
<persia> Does anyone happen to have the data to update https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuHashes for Jaunty?
<stpere> hi!
<persia> Hey stpere.
<stpere> is somebody already trying to update the UbuntuHashes page?
<persia> I just asked if anyone had the data to do so, with no replies yet, so it's probably safe to assume no for now.
<persia> This is subject to change of course :)
<stpere> :)
<stpere> is the login system broken?
<stpere> OpenID verification requires that you click this button:
<stpere> I click, and nothing happens
<persia> Oh, that's tied to launchpad, which is very slow right now.
<stpere> ok
<persia> Just wait a bit: it may work, or it may generate an error.
<stpere> then I will contribute an other time! thanks anyway :)
<stpere> it did generate an error
<stpere> oh, I will try in a minute
<persia> Pity.  Try again in a few hours, and thanks for trying to help :)
<sayakb> hey! where do moin issues go (for the ubuntu wiki)?
<persia> sayakb, Do you mean bugs in the wiki itself, or bugs in the content?
<sayakb> persia: not really bugs :) actually, I was about to request a page to be made private for the ubuntu brainstorm moderator team. is that done, or is out of the league?
<persia> It's not usually done, I think.
<persia> There are some restricted permissions to some pages on help.u.c, but none on wiki.u.c.
<nhandler> sayakb: You can set up a private wiki on a separate server
<sayakb> actually I was told that wiki has acls and probably, some pages have specific team access, thanks to LP openID
<sayakb> but a separate wiki sounds even better
<persia> And putting it on the same server as brainstorm might make it easier to align permissions (unless brainstorm has switched to OpenID)
<nhandler> persia: Brainstorm uses the same accounts as qa.ubuntu.com
<persia> nhandler, Ah.  It did that last time I checked, but that was several weeks ago, so I wasn't sure.
<sayakb> persia: brainstorm will not do openID untill the drupal 6 migration afaik
<persia> sayakb, That makes sense.
#ubuntu-doc 2009-04-24
<dsas_> Rocket2DMn: You're too fast!
<Rocket2DMn> yoink
#ubuntu-doc 2009-04-25
<j1mc> mdke: would the "draft" watermark issue on the serverguide be modified in the jaunty branch?
<mdke> j1mc: I think we're going to need to do a SRU for that, yes
<j1mc> ah, ok
<mdke> it's a bit of a silly bug :(
<mdke> I shouldn't have missed that
<j1mc> in those cases, how would that work in terms of when we push to the branch, and when the package gets updated?
<j1mc> yeah - :/ I think I missed that in the last set of Xubuntu docs I worked on.
<j1mc> I guess I'll have to look at SRU procedures.
<mdke> j1mc: for something like that, in theory it is easy because it has no impact on translations; we could just upload it and do the regular SRU procedure
<j1mc> We'll need that for Xubuntu
<mdke> however, in practice, I think it makes sense to bundle it with any other bugs that we think are worth fixing in jaunty
<j1mc> right - the Xubuntu change affects translators, so we'll need to do things a little differently.
<j1mc> ok
<mdke> I'd like to draft up a scheme we can follow for these situations
<mdke> Phil gave it a go here - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/ServicePacks
<mdke> but we haven't followed it yet
<j1mc> The Xubuntu team was just talking yesterday about release procedures. Maybe we could write up the same for Ubuntu-docs.
<mdke> launchpad has a good way we can target bugs to releases to remember them, so we can use that effectively, I think
<mdke> I don't know whether we should stick to the "3 month" idea on that page
<Rocket2DMn> hmm service packs
<mdke> for a bug like the draft thing, we might want to fix that quickly, whereas we could wait for other bugs
<j1mc> right
<mdke> here I am, advocating flexibility again, ugh
<mdke> :p
<j1mc> :)
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: the name reminds you of Windows, eh?
 * Rocket2DMn shudders
<mdke> hehe
<mdke> perhaps we could change that name
<j1mc> didn't Suse start using the phrase Service Packs? :)
<mdke> I don't know
<mdke> I bought a netbook for a friend recently, with Suse on it
<Rocket2DMn> i would think of a service pack as a dot release of an ubuntu version, not something for a specific package
<mdke> it was totally unusable
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: yes, that makes sense
<dsas_> one of my friends had one, installed windows xp within a day and hasn't looked back
<mdke> that's the fear I had, that it gives Linux a bad name
<mdke> I couldn't install anything, couldn't type proper sentences without SCIM coming in and blocking me, couldn't do anything
<mdke> thank goodness for UBuntu
 * dsas_ nods
<j1mc> what type of netbook was it?
<dsas_> HP
<mdke> yes, 2133
<Rocket2DMn> is bug 357389 fix committed now?
<ubot4> Launchpad bug 357389 in ubuntu-docs "Typo in internet" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/357389
<Rocket2DMn> i see it fixed in the karmic branch
<dsas_> Service pack is just a name, really it'd just be a SRU of ubuntu-docs.2009.04.10 or whatever
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: unclear from the bug, feel free to post there if it's fixed
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: I haven't seen any commits from Dougie on the karmic branch though
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, im looking in buntu-doc/internet/C/connecting.xml and it is correct
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: ok
<Rocket2DMn> do typos like this qualify for SRU?
<Rocket2DMn> it appears that the same patch should apply to the jaunty branch
<dsas_> Rocket2DMn: the guidelines for SRU aren't great, the intro says "hi impact bugs" but a bullet point says 'obviously safe patches to applications'
<Rocket2DMn> dsas_, i agree, it should fit the latter
<Rocket2DMn> doesnt affect translations
<mdke> sure it does
<mdke> any change to a string affects translations
<Rocket2DMn> its a mispelling
<Rocket2DMn> how does that affect translation?
<mdke> when you change a string, the translations for every language have to retranslate it, because it shows up as a new string for them
<Rocket2DMn> "concfigured" -> "configured"
<mdke> otherwise, it will show in English in their locale
<Rocket2DMn> oh, i wasnt aware that it worked like that
<mdke> yeah, fraid so
<Rocket2DMn> ok, thanks
<mdke> we should expand the documentation of this aspect too
<mdke> it's not so clear from https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationStringFreeze
<mdke> and it's also part of the "service pack" (or whatever we call it) idea so we could have a single clear page explaining these issues
<Rocket2DMn> ok, should i mark that bug as fix committed though, since it appears fixed in the karmic branch?
<mdke> yes please
<dsas_>  we could possibly get an SRU exception granted if we didn't meet the criteria anyway,
<mdke> absolutely, but we need a system that allows for translation
<mdke> I don't know if it's worth it for typos
<mdke> definitely for actual errors in instructions thoguh
<Rocket2DMn> I would say its worth typos for LTS releases at least, not sure about regular versions though
<mdke> we could adapt the process for LTS releases
<j1mc> is it only because of the xml that we get typos? we get too many of them - wish we had better spell-checking.
<mdke> hmm, I wonder if we could get some spell checking
<dsas_> j1mc: use an editor that has a spell check?
<mdke> are there any services that could notify us of typos from (say) doc.ubuntu.com?
<mdke> like a spider spellchecking service
<dsas_> spellingbot.com
<Rocket2DMn> could be difficult to get valid spellchecking with all the strange terms that float around
<Rocket2DMn> package names, directories, etc
<dsas_> "Ubuntu"
<j1mc> :)
<j1mc> i do not use an editor that has a spellcheck
<dsas_> j1mc: Really? What do you use?
<j1mc> i used geany during the last cycle
<dsas_> hmm, looks like most spelling mistakes spellingbot.com finds are valid technical terms,
<j1mc> i am going to check out oxygen-xml editor. it's proprietary, but works on linux and seems to offer some great features.
<j1mc> it is not even free as in beer tho
<j1mc> i'm also going to start using a great new tool called, "get someone else to help me with xubuntu docs." :)
<dsas_> j1mc: You can't call fresh blood "tools"!
<j1mc> didn't mean it in that way. :)
 * j1mc goes to take a brief nap
<dsas_> I don't think it's worth the translation effort fixing typos in stable releases. Not unless we're going to change that string anyway or the typo has bad consequences.
<mdke> I agree
<mdke> a nap sounds like a pretty good idea
<Rocket2DMn> hehe i napped earlier, and i never do that
<Rocket2DMn> +1
<mdke> it's been a long week
<mdke> cya all :)
<skierpage> Should I use bugs.launchpad.net to report bugs about the generally-excellent ubuntu.com web site?
<skierpage> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam doesn't say, it only mentions System Documentation and Wiki Documentation.
<Flannel> !launchpad
<ubot4> Launchpad is a collection of development services for Open Source projects. It's Ubuntu's bug tracker, and much more; see https://launchpad.net/
<Flannel> oh
<Flannel> um
<Flannel> !bugs
<ubot4> If you find a bug in Ubuntu or any of its derivatives, please file a bug report at: http://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu  -  Bugs in/wishes for the bots can be filed at http://launchpad.net/ubuntu-bots
<Flannel> bother.
<Flannel> skierpage: http://launchpad.net/ubuntu-website
<Flannel> file bugs against that
<Flannel> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-website
<Flannel> obviously.
<Hattory> Hi all.... there is a page in help.ubuntu.com/community/ where I can do some style-test? If not, can I make a new one?
<popey> Hattory: you could use wiki.ubuntu.com as that runs the same engine
<Hattory> popey: I know, but the help layout is a bit better :D I'm working for a new type of "menu", and I would try it on help.ubuntu.com.... something like this http://wiki.ubuntu-it.org/NaldiniPaolo/Prove0
<Hattory> popey: anyway it's only a personal experiment ;)
<popey> I dont think thats a problem
<Rocket2DMn> Isn't there supposed to be a meeting or something going on right now?
<DougieRichardson> Tommorow I thought
<Rocket2DMn> ah i guess you're right
<Rocket2DMn> the email did come in today
<philip_> DougieRichardson: i am unsure what this means "Back on Launchpad, post your patch, let us know what it amends and we'll push it! " -- makes me think a form exists there that'll send to the mailing list
<philip_> duh, i just realized this is specific to bugs
<DougieRichardson> Sorry was away from the keyboard, is this line still accurate if its just for bugs?
<philip_> yeah, it's fine... but i guess it could specify like "Find the bug back on launchpad" and/or use the actual lingo from launchpad which appears to be "Add a comment/attachment"
<philip_> fine line between writing a simple guide and ending up with a wordy 30 page document i suppose  :)
<DougieRichardson> You're telling me
<xboy908> hi
<xboy908> I'd like to take part in the documentation
<xboy908> process
<philip_> sounds like a good idea :)
<xboy908> @philip: thanks, are you part of the process too?
<philip_> not really, well, i've made one patch
<xboy908> about what?
<philip_> fixed a simple typo
<philip_> are you looking for something to write or how to write or ... ?
<xboy908> for something to right, i'm basically interested the whole idea of open-source
<xboy908> i mean to write, sorry mis-spelled that
<philip_> this was posted today, maybe you would be a good test subject: http://www.lynxworks.eu/files/BugsPlaybook.pdf
<xboy908> thnx
<xboy908> but who do i start?
<philip_> wherever you want
<philip_> do you look foo? write about. do you like bar? write about it...
<philip_> do you think foo could use a better example or description? write about it
<xboy908> sorry, but what is foo and what is bar?
<philip_> oh, foo and bar are typical words people use that can mean anything
<xboy908> umm, i get it, u mean x or y
<philip_> yeah
<xboy908> so, who reviews what i write
<xboy908> ?
<philip_> people like you, except they've been here a little longer so now commit directly
<xboy908> alright
<xboy908> how long have u bean here?
<philip_> open source is heavily based on peer review... a lot of eye balls
<philip_> not long, i mainly work on the php project but like ubuntu too so am lurking here for now
<xboy908> what do u on in the php project?
<philip_> mostly work on the manual but dabble in most everything
<xboy908> umm, u're into programming then?
<philip_> sure
<xboy908> have u written any open-source application?
#ubuntu-doc 2009-04-26
<philbull> hi guys
<philbull> anyone here for the Installation Guide meeting?
<DougieRichardson> philbull: yes
<philbull> hey dougie
<DougieRichardson> philbull: hi mate
<KelvinGardiner1> hi
<philbull> hi kelvin
<DougieRichardson> hi kelvin
<KelvinGardiner1> hello Dougie
<DougieRichardson> Rocket2DMn: I think phil's here for the meeting (not yesterday, lol)
<Rocket2DMn> o/
<philbull> OK, we should probably begin
<philbull> The spec is here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Specs/KarmicInstallationGuide
<philbull> I was looking at some web stats for the wiki the other day, and it's clear that installation-related pages are really popular
<philbull> You can see for yourself: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/PageHits
<philbull> We currently have 2 official docs on installation:
<philbull> the Installation Guide https://help.ubuntu.com/9.04/installation-guide/index.html
<philbull> and the Switching from Windows guide https://help.ubuntu.com/9.04/switching/index.html
<philbull> The Installation Guide is just the Debian guide with some modifications
<philbull> as a result, it's technical and not really suitable for most new users
<philbull> The SFW guide is pretty out-of-date, so that's not much use either
<philbull> My plan is to produce a guide which is tightly-focussed on guiding non-technical users through installation
<philbull> What are people's thoughts on this idea?
<Rocket2DMn> You said that the SFW guide was out of date, why not update this instead of making a new document?
<mdke> it's a great idea, we've needed a good installation guide for ages
<mdke> there should be plenty of material on the wiki to work with
<philbull> Much of the SFW guide looks at migrating data and settings
<philbull> it was written before the Migration Assistant
<philbull> As such, most of it's obsolete
<philbull> It's also full of crap that users probably don't care about
<philbull> (it's my fault, I wrote most of it)
<KelvinGardiner1> I think its a good idea. The current guide have a lot of text and few screen shots to guide new users.
<Rocket2DMn> So are you intending to do away with that SFW?
<philbull> Rocket2DMn: yes, ideally.
<Rocket2DMn> Ok
<philbull> we can replace it with several more focussed documents
<philbull> at the moment, it tries to cover the needs of too many audiences at once
<philbull> KelvinGardiner1: Making the guide more friendly is a major objective for the guide
<KelvinGardiner1> ok
<philbull> I've done a bit of research into the most common installation-related problems over the last few weeks
<philbull> any guesses?
<DougieRichardson> If anything, SFW should probably just be a FAQ covering common pitfalls.
<DougieRichardson> Yes - formatting WIndows by mistake
<philbull> lol
<Rocket2DMn> video drivers, wireless cards, printers are common issues
<mdke> those are covered by the desktop documentation though
<philbull> Lots of people ask about installing from a flash drive
<philbull> partitioning, wubi, reinstalling Windows
<philbull> questions about resizing partitions, users worried about their data
<philbull> whether to go with 64-bit or 32
<philbull> system requirements!
<philbull> Most of these just aren't covered in the SFW guide
<philbull> My plan is to compile a list of the most common/important questions and cover those at appropriate stages throughout the guide
<philbull> The first section will be about getting Ubuntu (download ISO, ShipIt etc)
<philbull> Which installation methods to people think should be covered?
<philbull> s/to/do
<DougieRichardson> cd, alternate and usb
<philbull> what about wubi?
<KelvinGardiner1> yes wubi.
<Rocket2DMn> livecd, alternate cd, wubi, flash drive
<philbull> the problem is, I want to make the guide as short as possible
<DougieRichardson> img as well - unr uses it
<Rocket2DMn> well, there is already documentation on Wubi, right?
<mdke> I don't think alternate should be covered, that's what the installation-guide document is for
<Rocket2DMn> fair enough, i dont know if as many people have problems with the livecd as they used to
<philbull> I think that we should cover the livecd in depth and mention the others briefly, perhaps without screenshots
<philbull> at least, we should point to documentation covering the others
<KelvinGardiner1> Will the guide be stand alone in case the user has no internet connection, or will it point to other resources?
<mdke> I think it's important to distinguish installation method from installation media
<mdke> the installation process is actually the same whether you install from a cd, a usb stick or another typo of flash drive, I think
<mdke> that might affect the structure of the guide
<philbull> KelvinGardiner1: it should be standalone for the basic installation process, but anything else can be linked
<philbull> mdke: if the installer is the same for the different methods, then all we need to do is provide two different sections on "Getting Ubuntu"
<mdke> philbull: that's the sort of thing I had in mind yeah
<philbull> ok, that sounds good
<philbull> the next thing I had in mind was a troubleshooting section at the back
<philbull> it would cover common or scary problems
<philbull> e.g. "GRUB gives an error message!" or "I have a blank screen"
<philbull> any thoughts on this?
<philbull> again, it would have to be kept quite short
<mdke> sounds good to me
<KelvinGardiner1> This sounds sensible. Key thing is to get the machine to boot and get an internet connection. Then for other issues we can point to the wiki.
<philbull> I think it's important to decide on what should and shouldn't be covered
<philbull> I think we should decide on a preliminary list on the mailing list, perhaps
<mdke> possibly the way to look at that is to do a survey about common problems with installation in the community
<philbull> (BTW, the great thing about this guide is that it's going to be pretty modular, so lots of people can work on it at once)
<philbull> mdke: I've been analysing IRC logs to find out what people are asking about the most
<mdke> nice
<philbull> the most common "technical" problems seem to be GRUB errors and busybox/initramfs messages
<philbull> lots about the CD not booting, too
<mdke> yeah
<DougieRichardson> Looking on the forums since Jaunty's release, repairing grub and partitioning seem to be prevalent
<mdke> those are often caused by bad burns or downloads
<mdke> so I guess md5sum and the cd check will come into that
<philbull> My idea for the format of the troubleshooting sections is something like a short Microsoft KnowledgeBase article
<philbull> self-contained, text-only, references to related info
<DougieRichardson> Fantastic
<philbull> http://support.microsoft.com/kb/310064
<philbull> (maybe a bit friendlier than that, though)
<KelvinGardiner1> sounds good
<philbull> The only other thoughts on the structure of the guide I have is that there should be a decent index
<philbull> and that we should have a short "What Next?" section after the installation has completed
<philbull> (Kelvin, I think you suggested this)
<mdke> something that links on to our other documentation, maybe
<KelvinGardiner1> yes, I think this would be helpful.
<philbull> mdke: The "What Next" section would probably just point to the "New to Ubuntu?" section of the system docs
 * mdke nods
<philbull> Someone will need to work on improving this too. It's not great at the moment
<mdke> maybe also introduce the answers to the the issues Rocket2DMn mentioned earlier, like hardware and internet
<mdke> by pointing to those docs
<philbull> perhaps those could be mentioned in a troubleshooting article, e.g. "My hardware doesn't work"
<philbull> Concerning the index, how translatable will that be?
<DougieRichardson> There are already troubleshooting parts of the Internet section, can't we xref to them?
<philbull> DougieRichardson: ideally, the guide will be self contained
<DougieRichardson> philbull: does that mean we can't have it pull information from other areas rather than have to have two similar documents to update?
<philbull> ah, no, that should be fine
<philbull> there shouldn't be much overlap anyway
<philbull> if we can point people at the system docs, then we should
<DougieRichardson> I'd have thought there would have been with Internet - especially wireless and modems.
<philbull> the troubleshooting should focus on problems where the user won;t have access to the system docs
<philbull> if the user can open Yelp, then we should just point at that
<DougieRichardson> ok.
<philbull> Next, the delivery format
<philbull> I was thinking: downloadable PDF, so the user can print it
<philbull> HTML on h.u.c
<philbull> maybe on the LiveCD as part of the system docs?
<DougieRichardson> The only problem with PDF is that they tend to get passed around rather than the link to their download which makes maintenance harder.
<DougieRichardson> That said, the individual solutions like MS KB articles would be suited to a PDF
<KelvinGardiner1> It would be nice to have a link on the desktop of the LiveCD to the guide. So its easy to find.
<philbull> I definitely want to get it linked to from the download page
<Rocket2DMn> DougieRichardson, your point about getting passed around is well taken, but isn't there advantage to that as well?  LIke passing around install guides at a LoCo meeting?
<DougieRichardson> Rocket2DMn: Not if there are changes between releases, then we lose flexibilty in changing them.
<mdke> all those delivery methods are sensible, i think
<Rocket2DMn> yeah, but the document is going to be geared toward a specific release.  And actually, not much changes with the install process
<mdke> philbull: on your translation question, I'm fairly sure that as long as the index is done using usual docbook tags, it will be translatable
<DougieRichardson> Rocket2DMn: If it's single sheets addressing issues then that's cool but an entire installation document, I'm not so sure
<mdke> I think since we provide the serverguide in PDF form, there's no reason not to provide this by way of pdf either, especially if it i a self-contained document
<philbull> mdke: I'll experiment with it
<philbull> nothing worse than an index which isn't in alphabetical order!
<philbull> OK, I'm pretty happy with most of this
<philbull> Any general comments? Anything we've missed?
<mdke> where will it be developed?
<philbull> I want to do all of the writing before we do any markup
<philbull> I guess that the wiki is the best place for that
<mdke> so are you going to work directly on the existing wiki Installation pages, or separately?
<philbull> no, we'll draft it on wiki.ubuntu.com
<mdke> how would you envisage the finished guide interacting with the existing Installation pages on the help wiki?
<DougieRichardson> Going back to the PDF thing and what Rocket2DMn said, it would be a good idea to have a single sheet covering installation with a FAQ covering common pitfalls on the back to hand out at LoCo meetings.
<philbull> mdke: the existing stuff should redirect to the appropriate section of the official guide if that makes sense
<philbull> we can take lots of material from those pages anyway, I think
<mdke> good stuff
<philbull> Aha! License!
<philbull> CC-SA?
<philbull> DougieRichardson: that's a good idea
<DougieRichardson> Why CC-SA and not CC-NC-SA
<mdke> easy answer - nc is not a free licence
<philbull> The wiki is CC-SA
<mdke> and we use free licences
<mdke> but yeah, there's no real choice in the matter if material from the wiki is to be used
<DougieRichardson> So using CC-SA, this can be packaged as a book and sold?
<mdke> sure
<mdke> like any of our other material
<DougieRichardson> Why is NC not considered a free licence?
<mdke> because it prevents redistribution for a fee
<DougieRichardson> hmmm
<philbull> OK, last thing I want to cover is how to proceed with writing the guide
<philbull> who wants to work on what?
<DougieRichardson> I'm not sure of the structure, so I couldn't say.
<philbull> there's the introductory bit, the bit on "getting ubuntu", the actual installation process and then lots of troubleshooting bits (we need to decide on what to cover in this section first)
<philbull> plus, improving "New to Ubuntu?"
<DougieRichardson> Why not put up a list on a wiki page and people can assign themselves to sections to deconflict?
<philbull> that works for me
<KelvinGardiner1> ok
<philbull> there are also roles for people who want to research common problems, test the guide and produce screenshots
<DougieRichardson> I'll trawl the forum/net for common problems
<philbull> I'll put my list of problems from IRC on the ml
<DougieRichardson> Lets just consolidate the whole lot on wiki and reconveen next weekend with our thoughts?
<KelvinGardiner1> At the start of the trouble shooting section there should be a list of links to laptop specific wiki pages e.g. eeepc macbook.
<philbull> DougieRichardson: sounds good to me
<KelvinGardiner1> DougieRichardson: I'm happy with that.
<philbull> KelvinGardiner1: that's a good idea. If you have ideas for what might make a good troubleshooting topic, please add it to the spec:
<philbull> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Specs/KarmicInstallationGuide
<DougieRichardson> I'm not trying to be negative BTW its just with OpenWeek, Uni assignments and writing the UNR branch I'm finding it difficult to stay on top so the wiki works for me
<philbull> DougieRichardson: that's fine, we have ages to work on this
<DougieRichardson> philbull: cool
<philbull> I won't have much time in the next couple of months myself
<DougieRichardson> I don't want to leave anything that's longer than six months either because I'm "on holiday" for four months later this year.
<philbull> It won't be that long, I want to get this ready for Karmic
<DougieRichardson> Oh OK
<philbull> OK guys, thanks for turning up
<philbull> I'll start a couple of topics on the mailing list later today
<mdke> thanks philbull
<DougieRichardson> Thanks phil, mdke are you hanging about? I wanted to have a quick chat about OpenWeek
<KelvinGardiner1> Will we meet next week?
<philbull> KelvinGardiner1: yes, we can do
<DougieRichardson> philbull: same time same bat-channel?
<philbull> maybe later in the day, I'm not home til Sunday evening next week
<DougieRichardson> ok, then after 1900 is best for me
<philbull> that should be OK by me
<KelvinGardiner1> works for me.
<DougieRichardson> Cool, lets put it on the wiki with everything else and I'll see you all then
<mdke> DougieRichardson: go ahead
<philbull> OK, thanks guys
<philbull> I'll be in touch later today
<philbull> (on the ml)
<philbull> KelvinGardiner1: are you subscribed to the ubuntu-doc mailing list?
<KelvinGardiner1> I've just done that.
<DougieRichardson> mdke: I just want to deconflict with what's needed to be said in the intro and the other sessions
<philbull> ok, cool
<DougieRichardson> mdke: two minutes while i put in the yorkshires
<mdke> DougieRichardson: yeah, that's a good idea. I think the sessions will inevitably overlap, but the key is that the first session is only introductory so doesn't go into too many details
<KelvinGardiner1> ok, see you guys next week.
<DougieRichardson> mdke: right I'm back, I was planning an introduction to the documentation - system and wiki, difference between community and team wikis - structure (currently) and the recent proposals
<mdke> DougieRichardson: that sounds good. We already have some notes from a few years ago here - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/OpenWeekNotes - those could be updated
<mdke> they are very old, but maybe useful
<DougieRichardson> yes and I've last times disaster to avoid, lol https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/openweekintrepid/ContributeDocs
<mdke> that looks helpful too
<mdke> but probably editing the documents doesn't need direct coverage, as we'll deal with it in the later sessions
<DougieRichardson> OK I was about to ask if that was to be covered in Emma's docbook session
<mdke> right
<DougieRichardson> OK, so I've an idea where I'm going, I'll mail you my outlined notes tonight (once I've written them)
<mdke> awesome, maybe stick them on the wiki for group review
<DougieRichardson> What time frame are we talking, I thought 40 minutes tutorial to 15 minutes of q&a
<mdke> sounds spot on to me
<DougieRichardson> Cool
<DougieRichardson> OK well, I'm happy then, I'll drop a line later - cheers
<mdke> cheers
<DougieRichardson> thanks
#ubuntu-doc 2010-04-26
<shaunm> mewshi: you could work on a topic for the new gnome desktop help
<mewshi> Ok, and how would I go about this?
<shaunm> http://live.gnome.org/DocumentationProject/DesktopHelp
<shaunm> very rough list posted by philbull
<shaunm> Pick a topic. The idea is to look for something phrased in terms of what a user wants to do.
<shaunm> (Are you at the tail end of your three hours of nothingness? Sorry, I was off doing other stuff.)
<mewshi> Yeah, I am, but I'll leave it open for tomorrow, when I have a lot more time :)
<shaunm> http://library.gnome.org/users/empathy/2.30/
<mewshi> what's the link for?
<shaunm> That's an example of how topic should be written.
<shaunm> So don't worry too much about organization or anything at this point. You can just write some random topics that interest you.
<shaunm> And don't worry about markup for now. We can deal with that afterwards
<mewshi> ok :)  Thanks, I'll work on this tomorrow after helping mittens :)
<KC3> Hi I don't know if I am in the right place or not?  I am having a tough time installing Ubuntu 9.10.  I don't think the live CD I have has the driver for my video card.
<KC3> I changed the bios to boot from the CD but it won't display anything when I do that.  I have Ubuntu installed on an extra 30G harddrive I have
<KC3> but I don't know how to install from a CD without going through the bios boot up.
<KC3> Is there anyway to get the cd to run the install program like a .exe file in windows?  I am new to Linux so please be gentle.
<brianherman> ping
<mewshi> hi there :D
<mewshi> hi everyone :D
<starcraftman> lo mewshi
<swoody> Can anyone lend me some wiki advice? I'm trying to get "border-radius" to work with other browsers besides Firefox
<Rocket2DMn> swoody, i'm not sure if it does
<swoody> Rocket2DMn: d'oh :/
<Rocket2DMn> swoody, I think if anybody knows, it would be cprofitt
<Rocket2DMn> he did the work on the BT wiki headers
<swoody> I can't find where offhand, but I found something that said: -webkit-border-radius: but I can't find it offhand, and I don't think it was specific to Ubuntu's wiki
<swoody> Rocket2DMn: gotcha :)
<Rocket2DMn> Moin's website may have some info
<swoody> Rocket2DMn: moinmo.in?
<Rocket2DMn> sounds right
<swoody> Rocket2DMn: good site for info. Thanks :)
<swoody> still yet to find the radius info, but will keep looking through it
<Rocket2DMn> np
#ubuntu-doc 2010-04-27
<mdke> DarkwingDuck_: no, fraid not
<mdke> mewshi_: yep, working on Gnome desktop topics will also help Ubuntu and is a great option
<durt> hey folks, working on a typo bug for the server guide, do I need to worry if ./scripts/validate.sh /serverguide/C/network-auth.xml returns errors regarding things I have not changed?
<sommer> durt: with the serverguide the best way to validate is to do "./scripts/validate.sh /serverguide/C/serverguide.xml" since the serverguide files are all linked
<sommer> durt: appreciate your help with the serverguide bugs :-)
<durt> ah, will do. next question; what to call the diff?
<sommer> the diff name isn't terribly important, something like network-auth.xml_typo-fix.diff would work fine
<durt> right, validated with no errors, now to commit and post in that bug? or notify somewher eelse
<durt> er, somewhere else?
<sommer> yep, in the bug is fine
<durt> hmm, the diff file is empty. I guess I missed something.. but what?
<sommer> did you do bzr diff > file.diff ?
<sommer> before  you committed the changes?
<durt> no after 'bzr commit -m'
<sommer> ah, then you'll need to do bzr diff -rlastrevno:secondtolastrevno
<sommer> bzr help diff will give a better example if that doesn't make sense
<durt> ok, then create a diff before commit then, the playbook is reverse.
#ubuntu-doc 2010-04-28
<mewshi> I'm trying to get 10.04 to link with Ubuntu One, but I can't find the "add this computer" button mentioned in the instructions.
<mewshi> whoops
<mewshi> wrong channel
<starcraftman> mewshi: heh, u1 troubles too, join the club. Grumble.
<mewshi> Ah that's not good :\
<starcraftman> mewshi: I know, you in the ubuntuone dev channel getting support?
<mewshi> there's a support channel just for ubuntu one?
<starcraftman> mewshi: well not exactly support, there is the dev channel.
<starcraftman> mewshi: darn I lost it, ask duanedesign he knows. Back to cpp for me.
<mewshi> starcraftman, what problems are you having?
<starcraftman> mewshi: just plain ain't working, will try fixing it later. It could possibly be dependency thing, I'll boot gnome to verify.
<newz2000> hi sommer, I'm the ubuntu webmaster and wondered if you've been active with the server docs regarding lucid's release
<newz2000> Specifically technical documentation
<newz2000> When you have a free moment, would you give me a ping?
<brianherman> ping
<mewshi> brianherman, pong
<mewshi> Pendulum, fancy seeing you here ^-^
#ubuntu-doc 2010-04-29
<brianherman> hi mewshi
<brianherman> sorry had to eat
<humphreybc> Hey everyone! Party on in #ubuntu-manual to celebrate our first release
<humphreybc> we're releasing in about 2 minutes
<mdke> newz2000: sommer has updated the serverguide quite a bit for lucid - ping him an email cc ubuntu-doc if you don't get hold of him on irc
<sommer> newz2000: ping reply :-)
<newz2000> hey sommer
<newz2000> I was talking to Nick and he said you're one of the main contributors to server docs
<newz2000> He was offline for a bit and I was scrambling around trying to figure out who deals with the tech specs
<newz2000> I think I found out it is Jos though
<sommer> yep, I've been updating the guide for a while... do you mean the specs in the installation section
<newz2000> Well, the ones that used to be on www.ubuntu.com and are now at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Server/TechSpecs
<sommer> ah
<newz2000> Is this different that what is in the installation section?
<sommer> nope looks the same to me
<newz2000> Do you happen to have this for 10.04?
<sommer> do you mean here: http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/serverguide/C/preparing-to-install.html#system-requirements ?
<newz2000> Yes
<newz2000> I think that is different though
<newz2000> The tech specs talk about kernels, web servers, email servers and etc.
<sommer> right right, I was looking at the general hardware specs in the top paragraph.  The serverguide doesn't have the version numbers listed on the page
<newz2000> ok. Well, Jos is going to fill this in soon, I was just curious if it was already done somewhere else
<sommer> at least it doesn't unless the specific section, like the postgresql section, requires a specific path or something with the version number
<jjesse> anything under the community portion of help.ubuntu.com/ is not a part of the shipped documentation
<sommer> gotcha sounds good
<detrate-> where can I find the web team for www.ubuntu.com or file a bug about the ubuntu.com homepage?
<jpds> detrate-: #ubuntu-website.
<detrate-> thanks
<Rocket2DMn> newz2000, if you are around, would you mind taking care of bug 571848 ?
<ubot4> Launchpad bug 571848 in ubuntu-docs (Ubuntu) (and 1 other project) "UbuntuHashes page should include 10.04 hashes (affects: 1) (heat: 6)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/571848
<godbyk> 21,000 downloads in the first 24 hours.  Not bad, guys.
<Rocket2DMn> i dont think it's been nearly 24 hours yet
<godbyk> Rocket2DMn: Whoops, wrong channel.  Sorry about that.  That was meant for the Ubuntu Manual channel.
<Rocket2DMn> ah
#ubuntu-doc 2010-04-30
<chillindave> I need some advice before making a revision do a document.  The command shown is apparently out-dated, but I'm not sure at what point it no longer works.
<chillindave> So do I just add the new command below it or replace it?
<ZachK_> Research the command and cross check it with the one currently listed
<mewshi> is there anything that needs done right now?  Anything that needs sifted through?  Give me something to do, please.
<amereservant> mewshi, https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SettingUpSamba
<amereservant> Looks like that needs some work.  If I knew how to do it correctly, I would've done some cleaning on it myself.
<mewshi> if you knew how to do what correctly?  set up samba? Or edit it?
<skierpage> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/LucidUpgrades/Kubuntu seems wrong.  It says you can upgrade to 10.04 from System Settings -> Add and Remove Software -> Software Updates , but I've been running that for two days and it's not offered me "Distribution upgrade available".
<skierpage> The system tray offer is there and update-notifier-kde -u work, but Ad and Remove Software doesn't.
<skierpage> james147, interesting.  I have the system tray upgrade offer icon and update-notifier-kde -u works, but Add and Remove Software doesn't.
#ubuntu-doc 2010-05-01
<brianherman> phil?
<mdke> morning all
<mistrynitesh> is the doc team responsible for maintaining help.ubuntu.com content?
<mdke> mistrynitesh: yes
<mistrynitesh> i see that the last link of the page https://help.ubuntu.com/community/LucidUpgrades is broken
<mistrynitesh> i.e. release notes link
<mistrynitesh> it links to https://help.ubuntu.com/community/LucidLynx/ReleaseNotes#Upgrading which does not exist
<mistrynitesh> instead i believe it should link to http://www.ubuntu.com/getubuntu/releasenotes/1004
<mdke> well spotted. do you want to go ahead and fix it yourself?
<mistrynitesh> my pleasure
<mdke> great, thanks a lot
<mistrynitesh> done
#ubuntu-doc 2010-05-02
<DarkwingDuck> mdke: ping
<mdke> DarkwingDuck: (In case I'm not around at the moment, please provide a bit of information about what you want and I will respond when I get back)
<DarkwingDuck> mdke: Your email about the lucid bug run, this was for all open bugs to get them taken care of but just targeted bugs, correct?
<DarkwingDuck> mdke: jjesse and I are tackling the kubuntu-docs bugs and I was just verifying this.
<rindolf> Hi all. Just to thanks everyone for creating the page https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ListOfOpenSourcePrograms which seems like the best of breed of "FOSS for Windows" pages (though still a bit obscure and hard to find there). I already contributed some stuff there and hopefully will contribute more.
<rindolf> And just a note: I'm not using Ubuntu.
<mdke> DarkwingDuck: it's for bugs which we intend to fix in lucid - i.e. stable release update bugs
<billybigrigger> when will the 10.04 LTS server guide be posted?
<DarkwingDuck> mdke: Okay, namly it being an LTS it needs to be fully correct rather then waiting for the +1
#ubuntu-doc 2011-04-25
<peppe84> !paste
<ubot2> For posting multi-line texts into the channel, please use http://paste.ubuntu.com | To post !screenshots use http://imagebin.org/?page=add | !pastebinit to paste directly from command line | Make sure you give us the URL for your paste - see also the channel topic.
<j1mc> hi peppe84
<peppe84> j1mc, :-)
<j1mc> good day
<pace_t_zulu> hey guys... does anyone here have elevated privilegeds at help.ubuntu.com/community/ ... ?
<Atamira> if you need a hand with anything
<Atamira> you're better off emailing the mailing list
<Atamira> you might be really lucky to catch someone here
<pace_t_zulu> Atamira: which list is most approriate mailing list for help.ubuntu.com/community ?
<Pendulum> pace_t_zulu: try asking in #ubuntu-community-team
<jbicha> pace_t_zulu: anyone can edit that, it's a wiki
<jbicha> just use your Launchpad account
<jbicha> but ubuntu-doc@lists.ubuntu.com owns the wikis if you have a problem you can't fix yourself
<pace_t_zulu> jpds: no, i'm looking to modify attachments that i incorrectly uploaded/named
<jbicha> pace_t_zulu: did you try clicking Attachments in the editing toolbar
<pace_t_zulu> jbicha: yea
<jbicha> and check the 'Overwrite existing attachment of same name' box
<pace_t_zulu> jbicha: the problem is with existing attachments...
<pace_t_zulu> jbicha: i will try again
<jbicha> I don't know a lot about attachments in the wiki (I prefer MediaWiki)
<pace_t_zulu> jbicha: i get this message "You are not allowed to attach a file to this page." even though all the attachments there were uploaded by me
<jbicha> I'm going to guess that may be because ordinary users can't delete pages any more
<jbicha> I deleted pages back in the day but I can't now
<jbicha> try uploading something with a different name and change the wiki page to point to the new name
<pace_t_zulu> jbicha: yea i can do that... but the result is a messy, poorly organized wiki
<jbicha> pace_t_zulu: yeah, it's not super clean, you could add a Delete category to the images
<jbicha> and then send an email to the list asking if someone will actually delete the stuff in the category for you
<jbicha> or skip the category stuff and just ask for deletion
<pace_t_zulu> jbicha: thanks... that's a pretty good suggestion
#ubuntu-doc 2011-04-26
<jbicha> mimico: I'm thinking about stubbing the booklet pages from Ubuntu's help for this release
<jbicha> because LO doesn't need it
<mimico> jbicha, you mean take them out completely?
<mimico> I think they mainly pertain to Evince anyways.
<Captainkrtek> hello
<jbicha> mimico: basically, maybe they could be cleaned up for a later release
<Captainkrtek> interested in getting involved with the doc. team
<Captainkrtek> reading up on it
<jbicha> Captainkrtek: have you used bzr before?
<mimico> jbicha, it was written initially with only Evince in mind, so taking it out is okay by me.
<Captainkrtek> jbicha, I'm afraid I have not
<jbicha> mimico: ok, thank you
<Captainkrtek> but I have experience in MediaWiki, technical writing, and open source documentation and development
<Captainkrtek> mostly for Android
<jbicha> unfortunately we don't use MediaWiki
<Captainkrtek> yeah
<Captainkrtek> but I have the writing experience
<Captainkrtek> I have also written for a portal with over 3-4 Million views a month
<jbicha> there's 2 parts to docs, the wiki & the user help
<Captainkrtek> on technical topics
<Captainkrtek> yeah
<Captainkrtek> I'd be interested more in the wiki
<Captainkrtek> spent lots of time in wikis
<Captainkrtek> what about the documentation onboard the OS?
<Captainkrtek> or do you have to first prove yourself
<jbicha> no, for the system docs, you'll just need to learn bzr :-)
<Captainkrtek> ive used GIT before
<Captainkrtek> and gerrit
<jbicha> and the docs are written in mallard (older docs are written in docbook)
<Captainkrtek> so i've used revision control before
<Captainkrtek> gotcha
<Captainkrtek> lots to learn :-)
<jbicha> yeah, bzr is similar to git but different
<jbicha> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/GettingSetUp
<jbicha> you need a GPG key and do the stuff in setting up your dev environment
<Captainkrtek> trying to setup my key right now
<Captainkrtek> is it a huge learning curve from GIT?
<jbicha> I've used bzr more so I couldn't tell you
<jbicha> I think newer bzr users don't like git because it's more complex, git users don't like bzr
<jbicha> because it's slower & doesn't do everything git can
<Captainkrtek> hmm
<Captainkrtek> ill have to check it out
<Captainkrtek> I'd love to give back through this community :)
<Captainkrtek> generating the key
<Captainkrtek> this is taking a bit :P
<Captainkrtek> so what do you work on jbicha ?
<jbicha> I've been getting the user guide into shape for Natty, basically changing the Gnome 3
<jbicha> stuff to describe Unity instead
<Captainkrtek> cool :-)
<Captainkrtek> I have not upgraded to natty yet
<Captainkrtek> probably should do that
<Captainkrtek> k gpg and ssh keys setup
<Captainkrtek> jbicha, K I went through that whole guide
<jbicha> ok, the pbuilder part isn't needed for documentation
<Captainkrtek> oh okay
<Captainkrtek> still did it hehe
<Captainkrtek> so where can I get started?
<Captainkrtek> looking at some pages...
<jbicha> https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-branches/ubuntu/natty/gnome-user-docs/natty
<jbicha> oops, that's not it
<Captainkrtek> hehe
<Captainkrtek> my launchpad id is steven.richards btw
<jbicha> https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-doc/gnome-user-docs/natty
<jbicha> so as you can see on that page, you'll need to run
<jbicha> bzr branch lp:~ubuntu-core-doc/gnome-user-docs/natty
<Captainkrtek> yeah
<Captainkrtek> running :)
<jbicha> let me know when it's done downloading
<Captainkrtek> okay!
<Captainkrtek> thanks for getting me set up I appreciate it :)
<Captainkrtek> jbicha, it's done
<jbicha> ok, conveniently the help doesn't require compilation to be viewed
<Captainkrtek> k
<jbicha> so you can just cd into gnome-help/C/
<jbicha> and then run yelp .
<jbicha> to view the help as of right now
<Captainkrtek> very cool
<jbicha> but it won't look quite right if you're not using yelp 3 which is in natty
<Captainkrtek> gotcha
<Captainkrtek> m running 10.10
<Captainkrtek> im*
<Captainkrtek> so go through the files
<Captainkrtek> edit them
<Captainkrtek> save em
<Captainkrtek> how would I submit the change using bzr?
<jbicha> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/Submitting
<jbicha> either bzr bundle and email the mailing list
<Captainkrtek> and then for
<Captainkrtek> bzr push lp:~yourusername/ubuntu-docs/branchname
<Captainkrtek> Id to
<Captainkrtek> bzr push lp:~krtek/natty/gnome-help/C
<Captainkrtek> s/to/do
<jbicha> I do it more like bzr push lp:~jbicha/gnome-user-docs/display-typos
<Captainkrtek> oh
<Captainkrtek> what's the difference?
<Captainkrtek> if im working in /C
<jbicha> because the final part is your branch name and you can pick whatever you like
<Captainkrtek> ahh
<Captainkrtek> so no difference really
<jbicha> might as well make it easy to recognize what that branch does
<Captainkrtek> yeah
<Captainkrtek> and then the files tagged .stub
<Captainkrtek> arent done yet
<jbicha> right, so not visible to users, but you can do yelp --editor-mode .
<jbicha> if you really want to see them or read comments
<Captainkrtek> Unknown option --editor-mode
<Captainkrtek> that only in yelp 3?
<jbicha> I guess, you can check yelp --help
<jbicha> it doesn't actually edit, it just shows some extra stuff
<Captainkrtek> hey jbicha sorry about that
<Captainkrtek> wifi cut out
<jbicha> np
<Captainkrtek> what editor do you use
<jbicha> gedit actually
<Captainkrtek> me too :)
<Captainkrtek> and what is the syntax called we are writing in?
<Captainkrtek> need to find a guide
<jbicha> http://projectmallard.org/
<Captainkrtek> bookmarked
<Captainkrtek> time to get to work
<Captainkrtek> thanks again for the help!
<jbicha> I pushed an update, so you can do bzr pull to get the latest
<Captainkrtek> very cool, updating now :)
<Captainkrtek> Im going to try to make a change
<Captainkrtek> quick question if you don't mind
<Captainkrtek> hello mimico
<Captainkrtek> do you have a minute to help answer a question?
<Captainkrtek> or anyone
<Captainkrtek> jbicha, you still around?
<jbicha> Captainkrtek: yes, for a bit longer
<Captainkrtek> okay great
<Captainkrtek> so I just edited display-2monitors.page.stub
<Captainkrtek> ran the check_validation.sh
<jbicha> ./check_status.sh is useful
<Captainkrtek> said it validates
<Captainkrtek> no return on check_status
<Captainkrtek> I can't yelp display-2monitors.page.stub either.
<Captainkrtek> any idea?
<jbicha> bzr mv display-2monitors.page.stub display-2monitors.page
<jbicha> and then yelp . will show it
<Captainkrtek> he requested URI "display-2monitors.page" is invalid
<Captainkrtek> The*
<jbicha> um, are you sure it validates then?
<Captainkrtek> krtek@krtek:~/natty/gnome-help/C$ ./check_validation.sh display-2monitors.page
<Captainkrtek>  --Validating display-2monitors.page ...
<Captainkrtek> display-2monitors.page validates
<Captainkrtek> :/
<jbicha> just do yelp . don't try specifying the specific page
<Captainkrtek> then search for it?
<jbicha> yes, there's a trick to do a specific page in yelp 2.32 but I'd have to google it
<jbicha> everything I own is running Natty at the moment
<Captainkrtek> hmm
<Captainkrtek> can I pastebin the file?
<Captainkrtek> see if it looks right to you?
<jbicha> did you get it to open yet?
<Captainkrtek> nope :/
<Captainkrtek> http://pastebin.com/M9FpmjD6
<Captainkrtek> couldn't find it
<Captainkrtek> oh wait
<Captainkrtek> hmmm
<Captainkrtek> can't find it...
<Captainkrtek> oh
<Captainkrtek> found it :)
<jbicha> good
<Captainkrtek> wasn't easy
<Captainkrtek> is there a way to submit an update but not a final one?
<Captainkrtek> like I will make changes to this one
<jbicha> it would be better to get it mostly final before submitting
<Captainkrtek> yeah
<Captainkrtek> did the pastebin look okay?
<Captainkrtek> need to read the style guide...
<jbicha> well it needs more work, you'd probably find it easier to read or edit existing pages instead of creating a stub
<Captainkrtek> okay
<Captainkrtek> I just found that one
<Captainkrtek> that was an existing stub
<jbicha> you picked an important topic but it's ok if it doesn't get done in time for 11.04
<Captainkrtek> I can get it done tomorrow hopefully
<jbicha> yes, the stub is from Gnome
<Captainkrtek> how long will it take to get approved?
<jbicha> review shouldn't take more than a couple days at most, maybe much faster
<jbicha> approval depends on quality :-)
<Captainkrtek> okay
<Captainkrtek> any tips for me
<jbicha> we appreciate the help
<Captainkrtek> based on that pastebin?
<jbicha> don't use tabs, use spaces
<jbicha> spellcheck, compare to already existing pages for tricks like guiseq
<Captainkrtek> okay
<Captainkrtek> so like download an old branch?
<jbicha> no, compare to other pages in the guide
<Captainkrtek> what about detail? is that long enough
<Captainkrtek> okay
<jbicha> to learn how to use the syntax
<Captainkrtek> yeah
<Captainkrtek> is there a way to include images?
<Captainkrtek> like screenshots
<jbicha> yes, but space is limited so I'm not sure if we actually need one
<Captainkrtek> okay
<jbicha> the gnome-user-guide is shipped on the CD
<Captainkrtek> ahh
<Captainkrtek> wow
<Captainkrtek> :)
<Captainkrtek> maybe I can get something on there before release :)
<jbicha> 11.04's CD is basically done though
<Captainkrtek> oh
<jbicha> no, they'll only rebuild the CD image for urgent bugfixes
<Captainkrtek> darn
<Captainkrtek> but there are updates
<jbicha> yes
<Captainkrtek> :)
<Captainkrtek> very cool
<jbicha> yes, it's neat to see your name in the changelog
<Captainkrtek> yeah
<Captainkrtek> it's a cool project
<Captainkrtek> how long have you been doing this?
<Captainkrtek> also, is this, http://pastebin.com/4Z9XgnaR , what should be in the guide?
<jbicha> about 3 weeks for the user guide, I had a bunch of free time
<jbicha> comments aren't visible to end users, it was just notes from Gnome about what they thought should be on the page
<jbicha> a significant amount of Gnome's guide was only written in March
<jbicha> http://j1m.net/2011/03/19/gnome-3-documentation-hackfest/
<jbicha> but I was interested in Gnome help for a year, I should have jumped in sooner
<Captainkrtek> hey
<Captainkrtek> sorry had to reconnect
<jbicha> but I was interested in Gnome help for a year, I should have jumped in sooner
<Captainkrtek> cool
<Captainkrtek> I have a friend who does some gnome work
<Captainkrtek> think he does design
<jbicha> it's a bit easier to write & edit the new help once more of it is written
<jbicha> back then, Mallard was quite new
<Captainkrtek> yeah
<Captainkrtek> how do you edit the sub title text on yelp for an item?
<Captainkrtek> like this
<Captainkrtek> http://i.imgur.com/ax6Qu.png
<Captainkrtek> see there is no text below second monitor
<jbicha> that's the desc field
<Captainkrtek> got it :)
<Captainkrtek> thanks
<Captainkrtek> shouldn't dual displays go under hardware?
<Captainkrtek> oh nvm
<Captainkrtek> if you're still here just have one final thing
<jbicha> ok
<Captainkrtek> the comment section
<Captainkrtek> is that a request, like "please include details on blah blah blah"
<jbicha> if you're able to include the important stuff then you don't need to write comments
<Captainkrtek> k
<Captainkrtek> might  be able to get this one close to done tonight
<jbicha> it is a note to other writers and editors
<Captainkrtek> gotcha
<Captainkrtek> Think I have this one done :)
<jbicha> I'm done for tonight, talk to you later!
<Captainkrtek> okay me as well, goodnight!
<Captainkrtek> hey dpm
<dpm> well, that was a short conversation
<jbicha> mdke: howdy
<mdke> jbicha: heya
<jbicha> I thought it would simpler to link to an app than telling users to search for one or
<mdke> I think the instructions should be app independent really
<jbicha> telling them to click through Get Software, down arrow, Canonical Partners
<mdke> ideally there would be a check box in software sources for the partner repo, as there was in previous releases, but I didn't see one when I tested so I used the apt line
<jbicha> oh, there's a check box
<mdke> perhaps it was added after the version I have got
<mdke> I'm a week or two out of date
<jbicha> it could be because you've been upgrading for a while
<mdke> I haven't upgraded at all, I have a daily live usb from the daily snapshot a week or two ago
<mdke> but I haven't kept it up to date as that takes up a lot of disk space
<jbicha> interestingly, if you delete the "Canonical Partners" repo from Software Sources, the "Use This Source" button can add it back for you
 * mdke nods
<mdke> jbicha: to change the subject briefly, have you by any chance gone over the topics which you reviewed prior to getting commit access and marked them as final? If not that would be useful.
<mdke> You've made amazing progress over the last few days
<mdke> == SUMMARY ==
<mdke> None: 		 0
<mdke> Stub: 		 6
<mdke> Incomplete: 	 1
<mdke> Draft: 		 3
<mdke> Review: 	 23
<mdke> Candidate: 	 10
<mdke> Final: 		 92
<mdke> Outdated: 	 92
<mdke> pretty awesome :)
<mdke> bbl
<Captainkrtek> hello
<Captainkrtek> jbicha, you here?
<jbicha> Captainkrtek: hi
<Captainkrtek> hello
<Captainkrtek> so last night I finished a doc
<Captainkrtek> committed locally
<Captainkrtek> and emailed the mailing list
<Captainkrtek> but I dont think anyone has seen it
<jbicha> no, we saw it
<Captainkrtek> oh okay :)
<jbicha> you should upgrade to 11.04
<Captainkrtek> yeah
<Captainkrtek> I was going to last night
<Captainkrtek> I will in about 20 minutes, is it good though?
<jbicha> the user guide is written based on the Unity desktop, so System>Preferences>Monitors isn't how we do it now
<Captainkrtek> oh....
<Captainkrtek> whoops
<Captainkrtek> so I'll rewrite it
<Captainkrtek> once I upgrade
<Captainkrtek> other than that issue, how is it style wise? I tried using some syntax from the mallard docs
<jbicha> use status="review" instead of making up a status
<Captainkrtek> oh
<Captainkrtek> I didn't make that up
<Captainkrtek> I saw it somewhere in the editing guide
<jbicha> the wiki? the wiki talks about docbook so it's out of date
<Captainkrtek> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/Checking
<Captainkrtek> on the bottom
<Captainkrtek> I used "writing" if I remember right
<jbicha> that page was last edited 2 years ago :-)
<Captainkrtek> whoops
<Captainkrtek> hehe
<Captainkrtek> didn't know where else to look
<jbicha> basically projectmallard and already existing docs are where you should look
<Captainkrtek> okay gotcha
<Captainkrtek> thanks for all the help
<Captainkrtek> sorry for bothering
<jbicha> we're going to update the wiki but because we're trying to finish up natty's docs it might not get done this week
<Captainkrtek> okay
<jbicha> no, you're not a bother at all
<Captainkrtek> well thanks for your patience in helping a nuub :-)
#ubuntu-doc 2011-04-27
<Captainkrtek> hello jjesse
<Captainkrtek> so jbicha just fix those few things (upgrading distro now) and resubmit for review?
<jbicha> Captainkrtek: I would take out the Ubuntu references as this page is something upstream could use
<jbicha> well except for the fact that upstream is using gnome-control-center 3 which is different
<Captainkrtek> okay
<Captainkrtek> cool, thanks :-)
<jbicha> I don't think you need to use quotation marks
<jbicha> one thing I like to try to do is walk through the process from a default install
<Captainkrtek> okay
<jbicha> how does Ubuntu generally act when you plug in a 2nd monitor, does it auto-enable it?
<jbicha> I don't have the right cable to try out 2 monitors on my computer so I'm not sure
<Captainkrtek> well I have two displays :)
<Captainkrtek> so I can test that
<Captainkrtek> it doesnt auto enable if i remember correctly
<Captainkrtek> it may turn it on but with mirroring
<jbicha> Captainkrtek: trivia question, how many indicators are possible in the default 11.04 install?
<Captainkrtek> no idea
<Captainkrtek> haha
<jbicha> more than you'd think
<Captainkrtek> how many?
<jbicha> I'm up to 14 in my count
<Captainkrtek> oh wow
<jbicha> the basic 8: o jbicha just fix those few things (upgrading distro now) and resubmit for review?
<jbicha> oops
<jbicha> bluetooth, battery, network, sound, messaging, clock, me, session
<Captainkrtek> quoting me? haha
<jbicha> I have my irssi alert set to yellow on gray so it's hard for me to read direct mentions
<Captainkrtek> ahh
<jbicha> I really need to change it to something else
<Captainkrtek> I use xchat more
<jbicha> and then there's Tomboy & Transmission
<jbicha> a Drop Privileges indicator
<Captainkrtek> I really only use chrome, eclipse, xchat, filezilla, skype, and beyondcompare
<Captainkrtek> I don't have many apps. installed
<jbicha> also possible to enable accessibility, display, and keyboard layout indicators
<jbicha> there should be a print job indicator but that's not been ported yet
<Captainkrtek> that'd be nice
<Captainkrtek> hello
<Captainkrtek> jbicha, just upgraded to natty
<jbicha> Captainkrtek: what do you think of it?
<Captainkrtek> pretty cool
<Captainkrtek> reminds me a lot of OS X though
<Captainkrtek> and the Control Center
<Captainkrtek> looks like the OS X control panel
<Captainkrtek> finishing the 2 displays article though
<Captainkrtek> jbicha, can I have you look at the doc? ill submit it to the mailing list
<Captainkrtek> submitted to the mailing list
<jbicha> oh, the gnome 3 control center is a lot better but it won't be included until 11.10
<Captainkrtek> gotcha
<Captainkrtek> in my doc
<jbicha> that control center has been in Ubuntu for quite a while but it was hidden
<Captainkrtek> I said, search for Monitors in the applications menu
<Captainkrtek> if that alright? still getting used to unity heh
<Captainkrtek> is*
<jbicha> I prefer to direct people to the System Settings button since that works in Gnome 3 too
<Captainkrtek> I couldn't find it
<jbicha> click the button in the far top right of the screen
<Captainkrtek> ohhhh
 * Captainkrtek is a noob
<jbicha> ok, make a backup of your 2mon page, and then please uncommit your 2 changes
<Captainkrtek> okay
<jbicha> because it's more of a pain for me to have to apply a diff to the previous diff
<Captainkrtek> sorry
<jbicha> so email a single diff
<jbicha> it's not a problem, it's a lot to learn
<Captainkrtek> how do you uncommit in bzr?
<jbicha> bzr uncommit :-)
<Captainkrtek> hehe
<jbicha> but if you don't do bzr revert the changes are still there, just not committed
<Captainkrtek> just once
<jbicha> bzr revert
<Captainkrtek> or twice for the two commits?
<jbicha> twice
<Captainkrtek> k
<Captainkrtek> I just ls'd in /C and I see display-2monitors.page and .page~
<jbicha> you have gedit set to autosave
<Captainkrtek> gotcha
<jbicha> ~ is a backup
<Captainkrtek> so just remove it
<Captainkrtek> or leave it?
<jbicha> hidden files are ignored by bzr so it's up to you
<Captainkrtek> k
<jbicha> did you figure out what Ubuntu does by default when the 2nd monitor is plugged in?
<Captainkrtek> let me test that
<Captainkrtek> well actually
<Captainkrtek> I remember
<Captainkrtek> it just has the monitor on sort of
<Captainkrtek> the monitor will have a signal, but nothing displayed
<Captainkrtek> then you toggle it on with the On Off radio button
<Captainkrtek> then adjust resolution, Hz, rotation, etc.
<Captainkrtek> apply and close
<jbicha> most shouldn't need to adjust refresh or rotation
<Captainkrtek> yeah
<Captainkrtek> I just added that in case
<Captainkrtek> jbicha, this look okay? http://pastebin.com/SU8C6VKG
<Captainkrtek> that's the diffname.txt
<jbicha> no, that didn't work either, it should be a diff from the original stub
<Captainkrtek> hmm
<Captainkrtek> okay
<Captainkrtek> should be good now
<Captainkrtek> weird, it is not a stub :/
<Captainkrtek> there we go
<Captainkrtek> jbicha, http://pastebin.com/kx8YMq76 ?
<jbicha> ooh, I didn't know bzr had a shelve option, that could be convenient
<Captainkrtek> so can I email that one
<jbicha> wait
<Captainkrtek> k
<jbicha> make your title more direct: Enable a second monitor
<Captainkrtek> k
<Captainkrtek> sooo just edit the diffchange?
<jbicha> no, just uncommit :-)
<jbicha> add extra returns so that your lines aren't longer than about 90-100 characters
<Captainkrtek> k
<Captainkrtek> this is an art ;-)
<jbicha> yes, we're picky
<Captainkrtek> hehe I understand
<jbicha> copy and paste from another doc the system settings blurb so that the style is similar
<Captainkrtek> k
<jbicha> you don't need to say radio button, just tell users to click <gui>On</gui>
<Captainkrtek> k
<jbicha> and I don't think you need quotation marks
<Captainkrtek> k
<jbicha> there's a writing style we've been using but I honestly am not sure how to describe it
<Captainkrtek> hehe
<Captainkrtek> I understand
<jbicha> copying what the other pages do is about the best advice I have
<Captainkrtek> yeah
<Captainkrtek> jbicha, okay I think we are go for launch
<Captainkrtek> jbicha, http://pastebin.com/MXuWqTKZ
<Captainkrtek> bueno?
<jbicha> well it needs more work but if you are stuck figuring out how to improve it you can submit it
<Captainkrtek> I know it's not perfect :/ new to all this
<Captainkrtek> what do you think
<Captainkrtek> submit or work on it more tomorrow
<jbicha> if you can improve it, do so, otherwise you can email it
<Captainkrtek> Ill work on it a bit longer
<Captainkrtek> then submit it later tonight
<Captainkrtek> any tips off the bat? I don't want to keep you awake
<jbicha> get rids of the tabs, just spaces are fine
<Captainkrtek> it looks good now :)
<Captainkrtek> going to email it off to you wizards
<Captainkrtek> jbicha, emailed, thanks for the help, I think you'll be pleased with my last email
<Captainkrtek> goodnight :)
<peppe84> Hi. I see backup page marked as "Outdated".
<peppe84> What is our approach now, we'll reccomented again sbackup or migrate to backintime or deja-dup?
<shaunm> j1mc: are you running unity right now?
<shaunm> or, you know, anybody running unity, can you run this is a terminal and paste the result:
<shaunm> echo $DESKTOP_SESSION
<shaunm> j1mc: and if you happen to have xfce running, I wouldn't mind seeing the result there as well
<peppe84> shaunm: peppe84@contumacia:~$ echo $DESKTOP_SESSION
<peppe84> gnome
<shaunm> bugger
<shaunm> I'm trying to find a reliable way for yelp to know what environment it's running in
<jbicha> shaunm: this might be another dead end, but it's possible to sniff for the appmenu, but that can be used outside of Unity
<jbicha> though not by default
<jbicha> so I'm thinking it would be an ugly hack
<jbicha> maybe this would help too: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/xdg/2011-February/011812.html
<j1mc> shaunm: yeah, it just says 'gnome' when running unity
<shaunm> yeah, probably going to have to check known service names on dbus
<mdke> shaunm: I think that if there isn't a simple way, one should be created. I can't image just yelp would find it useful
<j1mc> i've sent an email to ubuntu-devel-discuss to get input from other developer folks.
<shaunm> mdke: its' been discussed before for years in places like xdg-list
<shaunm> there's always resistance
<mdke> shaunm: bizarre
<mdke> shaunm: did you say that to build html using your xslt I can just use a yelp-build script rather than installing the software? I am having problems compiling yelp-xsl
<shaunm> mdke: well, yelp-build is created from yelp-build.in when yelp-tools is built. so there's no yelp-build you can just take straight from git
<shaunm> but all that's done to create yelp-build is some substitutions for paths to various things from yelp-xsl
<shaunm> lines 19-25. you could just change the @ patterns to actual file paths by hand and call it a day
<shaunm> or I could just send you mine. if you have yelp-xsl installed in /usr (which you almost certainly do), it will work
<mdke> shaunm: I have yelp-xsl 3.0.0
<mdke> (installed in /usr)
<mdke> shaunm: it sounds like if you send me yours that would be really useful
<mdke> there is probably a way to work around these build problems but if I can just use the yelp-build file without other changes, that is probably the easiest
<mdke> shaunm: thanks :)
<mdke> shaunm: it doesn't seem to like images with paths starting with / - http://paste.ubuntu.com/599964/
<mdke> is that a bug?
<mdke> shaunm: aside from that, it works an absolute treat
<mdke> thanks :)
<shaunm> mdke: oh, yeah, it just concatenates the path of the referencing page with the URL path
<shaunm> I guess for absolute paths, I probably shouldn't even copy the media
<shaunm> but, you know, those paths aren't going to work very well when you push the html to the web
<mdke> shaunm: yeah, what we've done in the past is to change the URLs by running sed over the built html
<mdke> ditto with ghelp links
<shaunm> ah, fair enough
<shaunm> well, if I'm reading the code right, those errors shouldn't stop the build or hurt anything else
<mdke> nope, all looks to be in order
<shaunm> hmm, actually, you might have some crazy directories created
<mdke> ah, it's created a usr/ directory
<shaunm> yeah
<mdke> doesn't seem to be any harm done though
<shaunm> yeah, you should be able to safely rm -rf that
<mdke> shaunm: another question. Can I use the same xsl customisations that we used to build docbook (like to build the html page header and such) with this?
<shaunm> maybe. I don't know how old those are, and what templates they overrode
<shaunm> but generally, the mallard and docbook output from yelp-xsl share a lot of the same code. you should be able to have a single customization that handles them both
<mdke> let's try :)
<mdke> this is the sort of thing - http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-doc/ubuntu-docs/natty/view/head:/libs/ubuntu-banner.xsl
<shaunm> is that customization for docbook-xsl?
<shaunm> I think it is
<mdke> yes
<shaunm> so the same template names aren't going to work
<shaunm> but it should be adaptable
<shaunm> (it would probably be worthwhile for yelp-xsl to have a few more stub templates for customizations, like putting stuff in the header and footer divs)
<shaunm> what I'd probably do with yelp-xsl 3.0.0 is just override html.page. copy what's there, keep stuff intact, and add what you need
<shaunm> if you use yelp-xsl's docbook stylesheets as well, the exact same customizations will work for both docbook and mallard
<shaunm> because they both go through the html.page template
<shaunm> most of the css is consolidated as well, using common classes
<mdke> ok, will look into that now
<mdke> ok, that looks workable
<shaunm> ideally, you shouldn't have to override that template, but I don't think yelp-xsl has the stub templates you need for your customizations
<shaunm> and really, short of adding calls to stubs so that those kinds of overrides aren't necessary in the future, I don't plan on changing that template any. so overriding should be future-safe
<mdke> shaunm: getting there, using that template seems to be a fine solution. I really need to learn css properly :)
<mdke> learning enough to fix problems and fill holes by trial and error is really slow
<jbicha> yeah I don't know css either
<mdke> ok, I've taken that as far as I can this evening, will continue anon
<mdke> code is in revision 1520 if anyone wants to look/help/test
<mdke> --> bed
#ubuntu-doc 2011-04-28
<Captainkrtek> hello
<Captainkrtek> jbicha, i submitted my doc to the mailing list
<jbicha> Captainkrtek: yes I saw it but didn't quite get to it yet
<Captainkrtek> okay :)
<jbicha> too busy playing with other bugs
<jbicha> Captainkrtek: you don't do HTML/CSS, do you?
<Captainkrtek> ehh notreally
<Captainkrtek> but i know an expert who could help
<Captainkrtek> jbicha, what is more urgent to do, stubs or outdated?
<Captainkrtek> outdated I would guess...
<jbicha> outdated definitely
<Captainkrtek> okay cool
<Captainkrtek> ill see if I can get some other stuff added
<Captainkrtek>  / fixed
<jbicha> let me know which you decide to work on please
<Captainkrtek> okay
<Captainkrtek> or if you want to assign anything to me
<Captainkrtek> :)
<jbicha> yeah that might be better too
<jbicha> did you figure out the check_status script?
<Captainkrtek> havent fiddled with it much, what does it do? check files if they are under review or something?
<jbicha> prints a list of .page's by revision status
<Captainkrtek> oooh cool
<Captainkrtek> also, if we need more scripts made. I know a little bit of bash scripting
<jbicha> files-share needs updating
<Captainkrtek> k
<Captainkrtek> ill take a look at that right now
<Captainkrtek> just used check_status, pretty useful script!
<jbicha> fallback-mode could be rewritten to talk a little about Ubuntu Classic fallback I suppose
<Captainkrtek> okay
<Captainkrtek> ill check out share first
<Captainkrtek> can't you assign files to someone on launchpad? if so, load em up on my page :) https://launchpad.net/~steven.richards
<jbicha> and the shell- pages also need to be looked at
<Captainkrtek> okay
<jbicha> no, files can't be assigned just bugs
<jbicha> so whichever ones you can do is good
<Captainkrtek> okay
<Captainkrtek> hehe looking at file-share date="2011-04-06" status="outdated"
<Captainkrtek> oh wait
<Captainkrtek> read that backwards, thought the year was 06
<Captainkrtek> jbicha, when editing an outdated article what do I do for the credit, replace the author?
<jbicha> no, that's attribution and needs to stay
<jbicha> if I only do very minor changes I don't even add another credit
<jbicha> but if we're rewriting it, I add the Ubuntu Documentation Team credit
<jbicha> if you write a page all yourself, crediting yourself is probably good too
<Captainkrtek> okay
<Captainkrtek> so ill just leave it
<Captainkrtek> looking at the net-email-virus page
<jbicha> the net- pages should be pretty good, we just need someone to check them and mark them final
<Captainkrtek> okay
<Captainkrtek> Im also just cleaning some of em up
<Captainkrtek> rewording and such
<jbicha> it's the network menu on the top panel
<jbicha> to match the wording we're using elsewhere
<Captainkrtek> okay
<Captainkrtek> saw some emails today, renaming the top panel to menu bar? or something like that
<Captainkrtek> jbicha, is the credit type of "editor" used?
<jbicha> I think we're waiting for 11.10 to change it to menu bar
<jbicha> no, we haven't used editor yet
<Captainkrtek> k
<Captainkrtek> I made some big changes to an article
<Captainkrtek> just add <credit> for me as author?
<Captainkrtek> or the team
<jbicha> hmm, I think I'm going to need to reinstall Ubuntu, running out of space on my /home partition with all this code I'm checking out these days
<Captainkrtek> heh
<Captainkrtek> need a server to offload some data? I have a nice dedicated box, I could open a shell for you :)
<jbicha> I think I'll be ok, there's a few different computers in my house
<Captainkrtek> okay
<Captainkrtek> but if you need a few gigs or more of space for files, let me know!
<Captainkrtek> jbicha, so I just finished reading/editing/re-writing a doc, change status to review?
<jbicha> yes
<Captainkrtek> k
<Captainkrtek> check the mailing list shortly :)
<Captainkrtek> what about commit messages, anything style wise I should follow? or just state what ive done
<jbicha> we're not too picky, you can look at our commit log if you want style ideas
<Captainkrtek> kk
<Captainkrtek> gonna look at some more outdated files
<Captainkrtek> ill submit a batch
<Captainkrtek> jbicha, how do you do a bulleted list in mallard? can't find it on the project mallard site
<Captainkrtek> oh nevermind
<Captainkrtek> just wrote up net-security :)
<jbicha> um....
<jbicha> that's not supposed to be written up
<Captainkrtek> oh...
<Captainkrtek> well I wrote a sub-article for it
<Captainkrtek> "staying safe on the internet"
<jbicha> well, maybe
<Captainkrtek> it's pretty good in my opinion
<Captainkrtek> let me pastebin it
<Captainkrtek> jbicha, http://pastebin.com/URQehmaZ
<jbicha> you left out the final </p></item>
<Captainkrtek> oh whoops!
<Captainkrtek> but what do you think overall, content wise?
<jbicha> you could ask someone else, but I prefer that page to be a guide page
<Captainkrtek> yeah
<Captainkrtek> I see what you mean
<Captainkrtek> so maybe like
<jbicha> if you think there's a topic that's not covered, you could write a separate topic page
<Captainkrtek> net-security-tips
<Captainkrtek> ?
<jbicha> the scope might be too broad for just 1 page
<jbicha> and you'd want to try to get into gnome too
<Captainkrtek> really? just thinkings a few pointers, with links to other guides
<Captainkrtek> hmmm
<Captainkrtek> im just covering general practices
<Captainkrtek> not very centric on unity or gnome
<jbicha> your 4 bullets at the top aren't defined
<Captainkrtek> yeah
<Captainkrtek> true
<Captainkrtek> I can think of a few articles to link to
<jbicha> did you know Gnome docs has its own IRC channel?
<Captainkrtek> No I did not
<jbicha> Gnome uses its own server, irc.gnome.org and it's #docs
<Captainkrtek> okay cool
<jbicha> but it's a lot of the same people actually :-)
<Captainkrtek> hehe, wonder why ;-)
<jbicha> they use git and are probably more interested in some of these new topic ideas you have
<Captainkrtek> okay
<jbicha> and since we pull from them, it gets into Ubuntu too but also into Fedora, etc.
<Captainkrtek> ahh
<Captainkrtek> cool
<Captainkrtek> let me continue writing this page and see where I take it
<jbicha> ok
<jbicha> http://git.gnome.org/browse/gnome-user-docs/
<Captainkrtek> linking to other pages
<Captainkrtek> I found a place for it in our docs
<Captainkrtek> what about Networking terms & tips
<Captainkrtek> I think it'd fit well in there
<Captainkrtek> jbicha, can you pastebin your net-security page? I need to undo my changes heh
<Captainkrtek> don't feel like uncommitting
<jbicha> just do bzr revert net-security.page
<jbicha> you can revert individual pages
<jbicha> or what's your question again?
<Captainkrtek> weird
<Captainkrtek> oh hold on
<Captainkrtek> ignore me :P
<Captainkrtek> jbicha, check your email
<Captainkrtek> just submitted a few changes
<Captainkrtek> hello jjesse & JasonO
<JasonO> Hi Captainkrtek
<Captainkrtek> You know much about bzr?
<JasonO> It depends on what.
<JasonO> I do.
<Captainkrtek> Well I made a new document and it showed up in the commit as Unknown: filename.blah and then didn't appear in the diffname.txt
<Captainkrtek> do I need to add it somewhere?
<JasonO> What branch is this?
<Captainkrtek> gnome-docs
<Captainkrtek>  /C
<Captainkrtek> unknown:
<Captainkrtek>   gnome-help/C/diffname.txt
<Captainkrtek>   gnome-help/C/net-security-tips.page
<Captainkrtek> ignore the diffname.txt
<Captainkrtek> err not gnome-docs , gnome-help
<jbicha> yes, that means you didn't do bzr add nameoffile
<Captainkrtek> ahh
<Captainkrtek> okay thanks :)
<JasonO> Captainkrtek Glad you got that answerd because I was trying to figure out whether ...blah was made on purpose by you.
<Captainkrtek> ?
<Captainkrtek> I feel bad that I keep sending two emails for each thing
<Captainkrtek> forgot to check the diffname.txt for the new page I added :/
<jbicha> Captainkrtek: I'm not sure the virus page needs all those changes
<jbicha> please don't change the indenting unless you need to
<Captainkrtek> okay
<Captainkrtek> last night you said no indenting
<jbicha> it makes it more difficult to see what has actually changed
<Captainkrtek> so I wasn't sure
<Captainkrtek> :/
<jbicha> no, I said no tabs, use spaces
<Captainkrtek> oh
<Captainkrtek> feel like im making a mess of all this :(
<jbicha> nah, it's ok, it's just a bit more effort to figure out how we can merge this
<Captainkrtek> so should I submit this: http://pastebin.com/2Hd8tPwb
<Captainkrtek> that diffname?
<jbicha> you can always mv your current branch and make a new bzr branch to have a clean branch
<Captainkrtek> yeah
<Captainkrtek> was considering that
<jbicha> and then copy in the changes you've made
<Captainkrtek> yeah
<jbicha> that might make more sense to you than bzr uncommit and revert
<Captainkrtek> yeah
<Captainkrtek> I guess I'll go ahead and do that
<Captainkrtek> what about the display-2monitors.page?
<Captainkrtek> that patch okay?
<jbicha> I'm a bit uncomfortable reviewing the 2monitors page as I don't have 2 monitors hooked up to test it
<Captainkrtek> I tested it
<Captainkrtek> but I guess you have to review it as well
<Captainkrtek> jbicha, okay Ill go back and fix all my stuff
<Captainkrtek> re-pull the repo
<jbicha> when you paste your diffs, try setting syntax to diff like http://paste.ubuntu.com/600129/
<Captainkrtek> okay
<jbicha> your change to clock-timezone is good, I've been setting today's date for the revision but I have no idea if that matters
<jbicha> your change to virus is difficult to read as you changed too many lines
<Captainkrtek> I dont know if it does either
<Captainkrtek> sorry :/
<Captainkrtek> the guy who wrote it before had some things I disagreed with
<Captainkrtek> like definitions and certain wording
<jbicha> the title should generally be sentence case, so "Do I need to scan my email for viruses?" is ok
<Captainkrtek> I dont think I changed that title
<Captainkrtek> gm
<jbicha> so I see some changes to make things clearer or fix grammar there
<Captainkrtek> in the email one?
<jbicha> but the more changes we make, the greater challenge to keep it in sync with Gnome
<Captainkrtek> yeah
<Captainkrtek> complex business heh
<Captainkrtek> sorry for making more work for you
<jbicha> j1mc: hi!
<Captainkrtek> hello j1mc
<j1mc> hi jbicha
<j1mc> hey Captainkrtek
<Captainkrtek> jbicha, so I fixed my new page the security tips one in the new clean branch, should I just drop the email-virus doc?
<jbicha> I see 3 good changes in the virus page: change "causes" to "cause" in the first line
<jbicha> take out "quite" from the second paragraph, and mark as final
<Captainkrtek> k
<Captainkrtek> and the display page?
<jbicha> I'd rather someone else look at the 2monitor page
<Captainkrtek> so don't submit that change?
<Captainkrtek> im positive about it, I use 2 displays and tested it, but you need someone to review...
<jbicha> if you can submit it as a separate diff that would be good
<Captainkrtek> k
<jbicha> but you basically already did that, right?
<Captainkrtek> yeah
<Captainkrtek> check for spam folder for my diffs ;-)
<Captainkrtek> so submit the net-security-tips and make the few changes to email-virus
<jbicha> you need to figure out some way to manage the titles
<Captainkrtek> what do you mean?
<jbicha> you're proposing "Staying safe on the Internet" when there is already another page called "Keeping safe on the Internet"
<Captainkrtek> oh there is...
<Captainkrtek> where is it?
<jbicha> net-security which your page should be a topic page of
<Captainkrtek> hmmm
<Captainkrtek> so ill do a sub page of that
<Captainkrtek> like tips
<Captainkrtek> or something
<jbicha> yup, and go ahead and add some indentation too :-)
<Captainkrtek> jbicha, how about: <title>Tips for safe internet use</title>
<Captainkrtek> I did :)
<j1mc> Captainkrtek: would be good to plan it out a bit better than that.  : )
<Captainkrtek> heh
<Captainkrtek> j1mc, im new here :P
<j1mc> Captainkrtek: i understand... but maybe outline it and send it to the ML first. see if it fits in.
<j1mc> get some feedback and save some time
<Captainkrtek> ML? sorry don't know the acronyms
<jbicha> mailing list
<Captainkrtek> oh
<Captainkrtek> I have been
<Captainkrtek> so just send http://paste.ubuntu.com/600133/ in the ML?
<j1mc> Captainkrtek: good question. that would be fine for now.
<Captainkrtek> k
<j1mc> i would attach it as a text file
<j1mc> to your message to the mailing list
<Captainkrtek> k
<Captainkrtek> like attach the .page?
<j1mc> yes, that would be good.
<Captainkrtek> also
<Captainkrtek> I have the change for the email-virus
<Captainkrtek> those 3 little things
<Captainkrtek> add the diffname for that?
<Captainkrtek> and just bzr remove net-security-tips for now
<j1mc> if the email-virus page already exists in the ubuntu docs, then attaching a diff is ok
<Captainkrtek> k
<j1mc> if it's a new page, then ... probably the whole page is ok.
<Captainkrtek> okay thanks :)
<Captainkrtek> you'll see an email in a minute
<Captainkrtek> trying to bzr bundle...
<Captainkrtek> bzr: ERROR: Connection closed: Unexpected end of message. Please check connectivity and permissions, and report a bug if problems persist.
<Captainkrtek> nevermind
<Captainkrtek> jbicha, sent it off, hope everyone doesn't hate me heh
<Captainkrtek> hey
<Captainkrtek> jbicha, thanks for your patience and help, hope I haven't been too much of a pain
<jbicha> ah, np, we need all the contributors we can get! :-)
<Captainkrtek> I think im getting the hang of things
<Captainkrtek> you get a chance to look at my latest message to the ML?
<jbicha> bzr pull
<Captainkrtek> then I need to reboot to do that haha
<Captainkrtek> In windows working on a powerpoint for Samsung
<jbicha> we're not sure about the net-security one yet
<Captainkrtek> okay
<jbicha> no need to reboot
<Captainkrtek> what'd you patch? the email?
<jbicha> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-doc/gnome-user-docs/natty/revision/1521
<Captainkrtek> ahh cool :)
<Captainkrtek> what are karma points in Launchpad?
<jbicha> nothing :-)
<Captainkrtek> well I have 3 haha
<Captainkrtek> 3 nothings
<jbicha> https://help.launchpad.net/YourAccount/Karma
<jbicha> it's possible to cheat and have a high karma without doing useful work
<Captainkrtek> so how do the points get added?
<jbicha> but it is sorta useful
<Captainkrtek> if Im only submitting my stuff via the ML?
<Captainkrtek> or do you have the power to add them or something
<jbicha> because you did a bzr bundle and I did a bzr merge, bzr knows that you submitted code
<jbicha> so you get some points
<Captainkrtek> ahh cool :)
<jbicha> I don't know how many points get awarded for what activity though
<Captainkrtek> Well I'll get back to work! earning those points
<Captainkrtek> what are your plans with the 2display doc
<jbicha> my plan is for you to find someone to review it :-)
<Captainkrtek> I can
<Captainkrtek> but you'd need someone at your ranking to review it, right?
<jbicha> see if someone else on the team has 2 monitors
<Captainkrtek> okay
<jbicha> only committers can commit it but others can review
<Captainkrtek> ahh
<Captainkrtek> ill send an email on the ml
<Captainkrtek> sent
<Captainkrtek> This is my first time doing anything in the Ubuntu community, glad I can be of some help :-)
<Captainkrtek> hello dpm
<dpm> hi Captainkrtek
<mdke> hey dpm
<mdke> dpm: what's your view from a translation point of view of moving to an upstream project rather than the ubuntu package on Launchpad? I'm slowing realising that it would give us quite a lot more flexibility and control. I've always resisted it in the past because it seems dispersive, so I'd like your thoughts
<dpm> hey mdke, I was just replying to your e-mail on Oneiric objectives about that :)
<dpm> mdke, the good news is that it will not be necessary to move any of the infrastructure: now that the message sharing across source packages and upstream projects in Launchpad is nearly ready, it will only be necessary to activate translations in the ubuntu-docs upstream project, mark them as shared with the ubuntu-docs source package and then the translations from Ubuntu will flow into the upstream project
<dpm> then you can also benefit from automatic imports (i.e. commit a template and get it automatically exposed in LP)
<dpm> and automatic exports (i.e. get translations automatically -daily- committed to a branch of your choice)
<mdke> that's interesting
<mdke> do you think it's appropriate to activate translations in the upstream project though?
<mdke> I know other ubuntu developed projects do it, and the translators don't seem to mind, but it means them keeping on top of where everything is happening
<mdke> oh, translations flow from ubuntu to upstream?
<mdke> that's excellent
<mdke> but I guess the pot templates don't flow from upstream to ubuntu
<mdke> so translators would still need to look at the upstream project for new strings
<dpm> mdke, I think it makes sense to activate them. In the case of other projects, it might make more sense in some cases: i.e. the synaptic LP upstream project is not only used in Ubuntu, but also in e.g. Debian and it exposes translations. Then the synaptic source package also exposes translations, and allows for having different strings than upstream. In the case of the ubuntu-docs project, it would not make much difference, as it is clearly an Ubuntu-only
<dpm> project. Perhaps you could make the upstream translations read-only by setting the permissions to Closed, but I'd have to check out if that would prevent downstream translations from flowing in. As per the other questions:
<dpm> no, the pot templates don't flow from upstream to Ubuntu. In the upstream project, if you use automatic imports you just need to commit them and they'll appear in LP. In the Ubuntu source package, you'll simply need to keep the current method: generating a pot template upon package build
<mdke> the problem we have is that we don't/can't upload all the time. Especially after the release, it would help to be able to expose new strings immediately to translators without making an upload
<mdke> that would mean we wouldn't mark the upstream project as read-only, but rather ask translators to work there by default and not in ubuntu
<dpm> mdke, but even in the case where there hasn't been an update of the pot file in the source package for a while, as long as the upstream has an up to date pot template, if translators do their work in upstream, the translations will still be shared in the upstream -> downstream direction, and as soon as the ubuntu source package's pot file gets updated, LP will use the translations from upstream to fill the 'new' strings in the downstream ubuntu source pac
<dpm> kage
<dpm> the translations are there all of the time in the database, as they are marked as shared
<dpm> it's only that when updating the downstream pot file, if they've been translated upstream, they will be made visible, or 'active'
<mdke> that doesn't matter. We would import the translations from upstream in the bzr branch and so they would be included in the upload already
<mdke> it sounds a cool system
<mdke> as long as the translators are prepared to work in the upstream place, which is what gave me some concerns
<dpm> yeah, but even if they aren't, assuming that the downstream POT file is up to date by string freeze, they can just work in the source package in the same way they do today, and the upstream branch will get the translations, which is quite cool :)
<mdke> yes, that would work, although then they are potentially working in two places
<mdke> well, as long as you are happy with the idea, I'm happy with it too
<mdke> ok, i'm really late for work :) See ya
<dpm> there are still a couple of open questions, as I've still not been able to road test the feature yet. It will be activated very soon after review. Perhaps we can then have a quick chat after that, enable it and give it a good test?
<dpm> ok, yeah, using message sharing seems the way to go for me
<dpm> see ya!
<jbicha> mdke: is the build directory important? because I was going to add it .bzrignore
<peppe84> !paste
<ubot2> For posting multi-line texts into the channel, please use http://paste.ubuntu.com | To post !screenshots use http://imagebin.org/?page=add | !pastebinit to paste directly from command line | Make sure you give us the URL for your paste - see also the channel topic.
<peppe84> I have run a test to build gnome-user-doc/natty Building works but I receive this: http://paste.ubuntu.com/600196/
<jbicha> peppe84: yes I get those errors too but it works
<peppe84> Hi. Yes I see that works fine. maybe any title in home page are missing? http://imagebin.org/150579
<jbicha> has the build finished? because the titles are supposed to show
<peppe84> yes
<peppe84> I have finish to build with make gnone-help, then I have open with firefox /build/index.html
<shaunm> j1mc: hey
<shaunm> can somebody running unity run the following command and pastebin the results please:
<shaunm> gdbus call --session -d org.freedesktop.DBus -o /org/freedesktop/DBus -m org.freedesktop.DBus.ListNames
<shaunm> also, if anybody is running unity-2d, I'd like the results there too
<peppe84> !paste
<ubot2> For posting multi-line texts into the channel, please use http://paste.ubuntu.com | To post !screenshots use http://imagebin.org/?page=add | !pastebinit to paste directly from command line | Make sure you give us the URL for your paste - see also the channel topic.
<peppe84> here you hare shaunm http://paste.ubuntu.com/600296/ this is about unity
<shaunm> peppe84: thanks! that has exactly what I hoped it would
<peppe84> oh good :-D
<shaunm> specifically, com.canonical.Unity
<j1mc> shaunm: sorry, i had opened irc, but wasn't looking at it
<shaunm> j1mc: it's cool. peppe84 helped me
 * shaunm needs a direct wire into j1mc's brain
<shaunm> j1mc: although if you happen to have xfce running on your machine, I wouldn't mind seeing the dbus services running
<shaunm> don't know how much you run xfce these days
<j1mc> hehe
<j1mc> i don't have it installed, but could run it in a vm
<j1mc> s/it/xfce
<j1mc> better yet... let me just ask a xubuntu user
<j1mc> shaunm: http://pastebin.com/VjAEfKs3
<j1mc> Xfce 4.8 on Xubuntu ^^
<shaunm> hah, I read that at first as "could run it in vim"
<shaunm> and thought "shit, I don't even think emacs could do that"
<j1mc> hehe
<shaunm> org.xfce.Panel or org.xfce.SessionManager are probably what I want
<shaunm> god I love dbus
<j1mc> haha
<j1mc> shaunm: regarding kyle's wish to have this in some sort of dconf or gconf key. i wonder why that is necessary for him.
<j1mc> i think he works with oems
<j1mc> and would perhaps want some kind of way of setting that value himself
<shaunm> yeah, and canonical does customized systems for them, I think
<shaunm> but it's like there's this house, and I'm not allowed in, and the windows are all glass block so I can't really see anything inside
<shaunm> and I'm being asked to create the furniture
<j1mc> yeah
<j1mc> well, do you mean with it being canonical-sekrit-oem stuff, or do you mean guessing the session?
<shaunm> sekrit stuff
<shaunm> I can see everything you guys are doing with stock unity stuff. I can design for that
<j1mc> yeah, he is a downstream of even ubuntu docs, but his needs aren't clear to me.
<j1mc> robert ancel is working on 'lightdm' - a replacement for gdm. it's his own project, and although he works for canonical, it is not under the canonical contributor agreement.
<shaunm> so I believe I can reliably discern between gnome-shell, gnome-panel, unity, and xfce
<j1mc> i wonder if we could talk with him about this issue
<shaunm> and I think the dbus checks are the best way to handle this
<j1mc> if lightdm were able to set a key in dconf or gconf, then yelp could pick up on that.  i suppose you'd have to be running lightdm, though.
<shaunm> and I'm certain I could get kde with just another dbus check
<j1mc> not sure other distros would pick up on it so quickly
<shaunm> if that were the best way, I could push for it in gdm
<shaunm> I think it's very unlikely that gnome will move to lightdm
<j1mc> yeah
<shaunm> it seems to me like lightdm is mostly a reaction against the fact that gdm runs a full gnome session
<shaunm> and gdm does that on purpose for very good reasons
<j1mc> i think so, too.  /me looks at orca
 * j1mc looks at keyboard settings
<shaunm> yes, exactly. and you could special-case hack in support for one assistive tech or another, I'm sure
<shaunm> but a mistake people make is assuming that the ATs we ship are the end-all of a11y
<shaunm> they're a slice of the pie. there are tons of third-party ATs that serve specialized needs
<shaunm> anyway, I'm going to try this dbus stuff. I first want to do some tests to make sure the dbus calls don't hurt startup time with roundtrips though
<j1mc> ok
 * Pici waves
<Pici> Could someone with the ability to modify help.u.c add the Natty MD5SUMS to https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuHashes ?
<jbicha> Pici: but anybody can edit that, just login with your Ubuntu One/Launchpad account
<Pici> jbicha: I think that page is special, I am logged in and the editing options thing doesnt have the usual links
<jbicha> Pici: but anybody can edit that, just login with your Ubuntu One/Launchpad account
<Pici> jbicha: I think that page is special, I am logged in and the editing options thing doesnt have the usual links
<jbicha> Pici: ah, you're right, unfortunately I don't have access either
<jbicha> somebody will get to it today though
<mdke_> jbicha: jbicha what's the effect of .bzrignore?
<jbicha> bzr status won't show any of the files listed there
<jbicha> I like bzr status to be clean
<mdke_> jbicha: that's fine, although you shouldn't normally have files there when running bzr status I guess
<jbicha> do we even want an empty build/ directory in our repo?
<mdke_> jbicha: maybe not. I'll have a look at reorganising it later
<jbicha> I tried changing the html font to Ubuntu and it looked horrible
<mdke_> we'll need to work on things like that later, when we try to make the site consistent with the other Ubuntu websites using the new branding
<mdke_> it shouldn't be too difficult but it is definitely an Oneiric task rather than a Natty one.
<mdke_> if you have any ideas how to fix the failure of the page to centre, I'd be grateful though - that is what I haven't yet figure out...
 * mdke_ going out for a bit
<mdke_> Pici: done
<Pici> mdke_: thanks.
 * mdke decided not to go out after all
<mdke> jbicha: I will plan an upload to natty-proposed some time this weekend with the new material
<jbicha> ok, good to hear
<jbicha> mdke: it looks like the 9.04 and 9.10 hashes are obsolete now
<mdke> do you think it is realistic to plan to do a hard string freeze in a couple of weeks?
<mdke> jbicha: ok, I'll remove them
<mdke> hang on, why are they obsolete?
<jbicha> mdke: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Releases they are EOL
<jbicha> oh, wow, it looks like uploads are already popping up in Oneiric
<mdke> jbicha: ah, ok. Guess we nuke 9.10 from help.u.c then too
<mdke> omg I can switch channels in irssi using alt and arrow keys. Where has that been all my life?
<jbicha> ooh, alt-q through alt-o switches to windows 10-19
<jbicha> I didn't see that shortcut earlier
<mdke> :)
<mdke> shaunm: I think that yelp-build is adding some css that isn't in my html.css.custom template, for example "max-width: 73em;" in the body tag. Can I workaround that?
<mdke> oh hmm, I have two body entries in my css file, one from the template, one appearing by magic
<shaunm> mdke: well, it will add all the default css. you just have to override everything it does in css.custom
<shaunm> or, if you're feeling adventurous, override css.content completely. but you're going to have to be very careful about your upgrade path if you do that
<mdke> shaunm: ah, it's from html.css.core
<mdke> shaunm: so if I use html.css.custom, will that override material in html.css.core?
<mdke> doesn't seem to be so far, it's adding both
<shaunm> it adds both to the output. but css in css.custom will take precedence in the browser
<mdke> shaunm: i see, so i just need to try and override everything. heavy
<shaunm> well, yeah. I mean, you don't have to override what you're happy with
<shaunm> it would probably be possible to parameterize all the output. have a param for common margin sizes, font scales, etc
<shaunm> but that can get really messy. I might attempt it if I have a really good sense of exactly what people are customizing
<shaunm> the alternative approach is that yelp-xsl has minimal css, and you have to do everything yourself. that's basically the docbook-xsl approach
<shaunm> and it's a fine approach. it has its advantages. but I decided I'd rather just have something that gives you pretty nice results by default
<shaunm> because most people don't customize
<mdke> what seems to be causing the problem here is the max-width thing in <body>
 * mdke goes to look it up
<shaunm> I removed that, as well as positive:relative
<mdke> ok, cool
<shaunm> because it caused problems when I was doing the customization I sent to the list
<mdke> if I set that to 100% then it looks like it should :)
<mdke> ok, that has solved my problems, thanks shaunm
<mdke> now to figure out where the breadcrumbs have gone
<shaunm> did you override the match for html.page.header.mode?
<mdke> shaunm: not knowingly...
<mdke> shaunm: yes, I did. Got it back, thanks
<mdke> ok, that's the xsl more or less sorted
<j1mc> thanks, mdke
<mdke> j1mc: feel free to give the html a try and file bugs or patch directly
 * j1mc goes to update my branch
<j1mc> mdke: what commands do you run to run a test-build of the html?
<j1mc> nm i found some instructions
<mdke> j1mc: make gnome-help (from the libs directory)
<Captainkrtek> anyone here have a second monitor?
<Rocket2DMn> yes but i dont have natty installed
<Rocket2DMn> sorry
<Captainkrtek> okay
<Captainkrtek> I wrote a doc on 2displays setup, I can verify it myself in natty but we need a second person to approve it
<mdke> j1mc: index.html doesn't seem to be working properly with the mouseover images, I've obviously screwed something up there
<Captainkrtek> mdke, what's up?
<Rocket2DMn> Captainkrtek, i saw your emails.  I might be able to test out the directions this weekend if i do a livecd boot
<Captainkrtek> okay thanks
<Captainkrtek> once you do can you reply to the email and @mention jbicha
<mdke> Captainkrtek: I'm working on the tools for building the gnome-user-docs to html
<Captainkrtek> mdke, ahh cool
<Rocket2DMn> ahh so natty has been officially released now
<mdke> yes
<Rocket2DMn> we're officially behind schedule then :)
<Captainkrtek> Rocket2DMn, yeah, you should dist-upgrade
<Rocket2DMn> im still on lucid on my desktopi
<Captainkrtek> heh
<Rocket2DMn> im thinking of doing a completely fresh install of natty 64 bit with ext4
<Captainkrtek> nice!
<Captainkrtek> Im running that
<Captainkrtek> but mine is an upgrade
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: we're always behind schedule :(
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, yeah, such is the nature of documentation, not that it's much of an excuse though
<jbicha> Rocket2DMn: maybe btrfs will be usable in 11.10
<Captainkrtek> hey jbicha :-)
<Captainkrtek> no reply yet to my new doc addition :/
<Rocket2DMn> jbicha, i try not to do anything too crazy on my desktop, this is the one system that jus thas to work
<j1mc> mdke: yeah, i noticed that
<mdke> j1mc: I will appeal to the mailing list. It was working in shaunm's version
<j1mc> sounds good
 * j1mc needs a brief nap
<Captainkrtek> has anyone seen my addition of net-security-tips ?
<Captainkrtek> If someone could look at it and reply it'd be much appreciated
<j1mc> all: http://lists.kde.org/?l=kde-devel&m=130191960215339&w=2
<j1mc> shaun is going ot be in touch with him
<Captainkrtek> j1mc, just skimming that, seems pretty cool
<mdke> j1mc: sleep well
<j1mc> shaun seemed interested
<j1mc> talk to you all later.
<mdke> Captainkrtek: I haven't had a chance to look at it but hopefully someone will in due course
<j1mc> thanks for all of your help!
<Captainkrtek> bye j1mc
<Captainkrtek> mdke, yeah I hope so :| No one has replied to any of my emails to the ML yet haha
<mdke> Captainkrtek: it can take a while - everyone is rather busy right now and we are all volunteers
<Captainkrtek> Yeah I understand, I can wait :-)
<Captainkrtek> jbicha, any docs you want me to check out for you and mark as final?
<Captainkrtek> wow just got the email about the online help site, looks very nice!
 * mdke --> bed
<Captainkrtek> hehe, Goodnight!
<Captainkrtek> mdke, is there a need for a dedicated server?
<shaunm> mdke: is the problem that they're slightly offset, not positioned correctly?
<shaunm> the issue is that the css and js that was used for that didn't respond well to margin customizations and such. part of the fix was what I mentioned earlier about the css properties on the body element
<Captainkrtek> shaunm, we are calling the "top bar" menu bar now right?
<shaunm> those fixes are in yelp-xsl 3.0.1. so if it's at all possible for you to build using that, your life will be easier
<shaunm> the html I built and put on my people.gnome.org space, by the way, was built with those yelp-xsl changes
<jbicha> Captainkrtek: no, continue calling it "top panel" for now
<Captainkrtek> k
<Captainkrtek> just reviewing some outdated documents
<Captainkrtek> also contractions are a no-no right?
<jbicha> contractions are fine
<Captainkrtek> oh
<Captainkrtek> thought I saw something about them in the ml
#ubuntu-doc 2011-04-29
<shaunm> no contractions has been kind of the tradition, inherited from gnome, and gnome inherited it from sun
<shaunm> I think everybody's moved on with their lives now, though
<Captainkrtek> meh, if I find them I fix them
<Captainkrtek> makes it look more professional </grammar-freak>
<Captainkrtek> shaunm, do you have a printer set up in Natty? just need something verified really quick
<shaunm> I don't even have natty
<Captainkrtek> well that could be an issue ;-)
<Captainkrtek> hi jjesse
<jjesse> hi
<Captainkrtek> jbicha, right now im checking all the outdated net-* docs and marking them as final and editing :)
<jbicha> ok
<Captainkrtek> I'll post the patch to the ML in about 30 minutes
<Captainkrtek> jbicha, after checking an outdated doc and seeing it is all good, mark it as final right?
<jbicha> yes and put today's date
<Captainkrtek> under what section
<Captainkrtek> oh the revision
<Captainkrtek> jbicha, finished reviewing all of the net-* articles :) emailing the patch shortly
<Captainkrtek> jbicha, check your email :)
<jbicha> Captainkrtek: ok
<Captainkrtek> hey johnny77
<johnny77> Captainkrtek: hello
<jbicha> For exmaple :-)
<Captainkrtek> ?
<jbicha> just reviewing your edits, lol
<Captainkrtek> oh
<Captainkrtek> hehe
<jbicha> nah, everyone makes typos
<Captainkrtek> you should see the keyboard im using, still getting used to it: typematrix.com :)
<jbicha> ah, good excuse
<Captainkrtek> lol
<jbicha> that keyboard doesn't look ergonomic to me
<Captainkrtek> nahh probabl wasnt the keyboard
<Captainkrtek> probably*
<jbicha> are you a Dvorak user?
<Captainkrtek> nahh
<Captainkrtek> but it actually is more ergo.
<Captainkrtek> no reaching with your right pinky, less strain
<jbicha> I really ought to sit down and learn Dvorak, it's a hassle for the few weeks or so it takes though
<Captainkrtek> yeah
<Captainkrtek> my brother uses it
<Captainkrtek> he is very fast with it
<Captainkrtek> but typematrix + qwerty is as fast
<Captainkrtek> jbicha: how are the changes?
<jbicha> half done
<Captainkrtek> okay
<Captainkrtek> :)
<Captainkrtek> jbicha: lots of editing to do to the patch?
<jbicha> it's a lot of files edited and I'm multitasking
<Captainkrtek> gotcha
<Captainkrtek> hope it's not a hassle
<Captainkrtek> jbicha, are you a part of the Ubuntu-Doc project team? accidentally applied to join
<jbicha> what do you mean?
<Captainkrtek> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-doc
<Captainkrtek> Accidentally applied to join that team haha
<Captainkrtek> the latest members are all teams
<jbicha> ok, all better
<Captainkrtek> thanks
<Captainkrtek> what does it take to get on the Ubuntu Documentation committers team?
<jbicha> Committers can push code to the bzr branches new packages come from
<Captainkrtek> yeah
<Captainkrtek> how many months/years did it take you to get that?
<jbicha> 3 weeks
<Captainkrtek> oh wow haha
<jbicha> but I have too much free time
<Captainkrtek> heh I will soon as well
<Captainkrtek> work is slowing down for me
<jbicha> & our docs needed a bunch of work
<Captainkrtek> it seems the current docs need a fair bit of work
<jbicha> it depends on your perspective, in some ways I think they're the best they've ever been
<jbicha> except for the missing translations
<Captainkrtek> well im new to this
<Captainkrtek> so I have nothing to compare to
<Captainkrtek> just looks like a lot
<jbicha> but there's plenty to do this next cycle
<Captainkrtek> yeah
<Captainkrtek> Im glad I was able to power through a few docs today :)
<jbicha> merged
<Captainkrtek> :D
<Captainkrtek> awesome
<jbicha> you may have trouble on your side merging it though
<Captainkrtek> what do I do to merge?
<jbicha> I recommend uncommitting and reverting your chanes and then bzr pull
<Captainkrtek> kk
<jbicha> or you could just try bzr pull but I think it diverged too much
<jbicha> I don't have a lot of bzr merging experience so just a guess
<Captainkrtek> k pulling
<Captainkrtek> all merged :)
<Captainkrtek> I can finish all the outdated docs tonight or tomorrow
<jbicha> no you can't
<Captainkrtek> ?
<Captainkrtek> only 35 left
<jbicha> just my opinion, some of the outdated are more complicated to fix
<Captainkrtek> yeah true...
<Captainkrtek> the ones I did today were just minor changes
<Captainkrtek> Ill try and knock out a few more though
<jbicha> and we marked some pages final that weren't yet
<Captainkrtek> oh?
<jbicha> I'm fixing net-nonm now
<Captainkrtek> oh
<Captainkrtek> sorry :/
<Captainkrtek> one file didn't get merged
<Captainkrtek> still marked as outdated
<Captainkrtek> net-wireless-troubleshooting-device-drivers.page
<jbicha> no, it'll be fine, I merged your work and am just looking over to see if we missed anything
<Captainkrtek> oh okay
<jbicha> yes, that page is wrong, it's a duplicate of the previous page in the troubleshooting guide
<jbicha> so it's definitely not final
<jbicha> and the printer page you submitted still needs updating for 11.04
<Captainkrtek> hmm
<Captainkrtek> I checked that one out
<Captainkrtek> looked good to me, tested it
<Captainkrtek> did I not save it or something?
<jbicha> you don't need admin privileges to set default printer
<Captainkrtek> oh
<Captainkrtek> let me update that doc then
<Captainkrtek> doing that now...
<jbicha> if I remember right, you can either set it as default for just you or for everyone
<jbicha> to test, you can duplicate your printer
<Captainkrtek> yea
<Captainkrtek> Just unplugged the printer a while ago, it was running on another box not running natty
<Captainkrtek> let me find someone to test
<jbicha> system-config-printer is annoying if you're not logged in as an admin user and try to do admin stuff
<jbicha> you get a root password dialog which won't work on standard Ubuntu
<Captainkrtek> odd
<Captainkrtek> getting someone to test
<Captainkrtek> jbicha, Ill have the printer fix in about <15 minutes
<bazhang> Captainkrtek, hi
<Captainkrtek> hey
<Captainkrtek> okay so here is what I have so far (gets link)
<Captainkrtek> bazhang, http://paste.ubuntu.com/600587/
<Captainkrtek> I know a few things need to be added
<Captainkrtek> so could you add a second copy of your printer, then attempt to make it default using those steps
<Captainkrtek> and if i'm missing anything in between steps please let me know what and where
<bazhang> System-->Administration--> Printing ?
<Captainkrtek> you should be able to go
<Captainkrtek> Power Icon on top bar
<Captainkrtek> System Settings
<Captainkrtek> Printing under the Hardware category
<bazhang> ok
<Captainkrtek> try to follow http://paste.ubuntu.com/600587/
<bazhang> I always recommend they check linuxprinting.org as well if it does not show up out of the box
<Captainkrtek> good idea
<Captainkrtek> bazhang, able to get it going?
<bazhang> Captainkrtek, mine worked out of the box, so I never had to do that
<Captainkrtek> yeah
<jbicha> "select the default option" isn't clear
<Captainkrtek> but we still need to have a guide for it
<bazhang> some weird xerox fuji laser printer that only win7 has drivers for
<Captainkrtek> jbicha, I didn't edit that
<jbicha> right, please do
<Captainkrtek> I will
<Captainkrtek> thing is, without a printer I can't test that far
<Captainkrtek> bazhang, can you take a screenshot of that page, the one where you can set the options for the printer
<jbicha> Captainkrtek: you're trying to do setup-printing? that one's a bit confusing
<Captainkrtek> no
<Captainkrtek> Im doing setup-printing-default-page
<Captainkrtek> err
<Captainkrtek> s/page/printer
<Captainkrtek> setting the default printer
<jbicha> you've never installed a printer?
<jbicha> on that computer
<Captainkrtek> I don't use a printer on this  box
<jbicha> oh ok, you don't have to work on that then
<Captainkrtek> well trying to get someone else to confirm
<Captainkrtek> when I do print it is on a W7 box in the house
<Captainkrtek> bazhang, you still around?
<bazhang> Captainkrtek, bit busy at the moment, sorry
<Captainkrtek> okay no problem
<Captainkrtek> jbicha, can you name off any docs you want me to work on tomorrow?
<Captainkrtek> Ill have a ton of freetime this weekend
<jbicha> file-share
<Captainkrtek> okay
<Captainkrtek> ill write that down on my whiteboard
<Captainkrtek> also for submitting merges should I use: https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-doc/gnome-user-docs/natty/+register-merge
<jbicha> you don't have a fingerprint reader, do you?
<Captainkrtek> sadly no
<jbicha> I'll just stub that probably
<Captainkrtek> but a friend is coming home from a trip this weekend they have one on their dell, maybe I could boot a live CD if you need
<jbicha> I expect it's a big challenge to get it working well so stubbing is a lot easier
<Captainkrtek> yeah
<jbicha> we'll have more time before O if someone were to work on it
<Captainkrtek> I can try and get my hands on one from work
<Captainkrtek> Im sure Samsung has a few lying around
<Captainkrtek> weird
<Captainkrtek> Im getting karma points for branching
<Captainkrtek> and not for commits lol
<Captainkrtek> jbicha, going to bed, talk to you later
<mdke> shaunm: I will try to get yelp-xsl 3.0.1 built
<mdke> shaunm: thanks
<mdke> only 28 outdated files in gnome-help, excellent stuff
 * mdke can't figure out this mouseover css issue :(
<mdke> I don't want to go live with help.ubuntu.com until this is fixed, it's a pretty visible problem
<mdke> hey Rocket2DMn
<Rocket2DMn> hey mdke , how are you this afternoon/evening?
<mdke> not bad, tearing my hair out a bit with this issue with the front page of the html build
<Rocket2DMn> ah the natty bugs are coming in :)
<Rocket2DMn> which build? gnome-user-docs or ubuntu-docs?
<mdke> gnome-user-docs
<Rocket2DMn> what's the issue?
<mdke> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2011-April/015730.html
<mdke> mouseover the top links on http://doc.ubuntu.com/~mdke/natty/
<Rocket2DMn> where should the mouseover appear? below the pointer?
<mdke> in place of the existing image of the desktop
<mdke> as happens in yelp
<Rocket2DMn> ah, hmm, i a variety of css classes
<mdke> I'm not great with css. I kind of use trial and error
<Rocket2DMn> yeah, css is like that...
<Rocket2DMn> what about javascript to replace the image?
<mdke> it's not very easy to customise because yelp-xsl takes care of generating the html. But we can define certain things by amending the xsl. I'd rather not try to amend too much, it's better to use css if possible
<mdke> I know that it works because in shaunm's version, it worked
<mdke> I have broken it somehow
<mdke> but I can't figure out how
<Rocket2DMn> <div class="links topiclinks"> doesnt look right
<Rocket2DMn> i dont see where topiclinks is defined (or even know if something can be two classes at once)
<Rocket2DMn> is "topics" supposed to be an attribute, like topic="link" ?
<Rocket2DMn> s/link/links
<mdke> ah, perhaps I haven't broken it after all then. That's not something I have done
<mdke> although I don't know if that is causing this issue
<Rocket2DMn> idk either, i dont have a FF plugin installed to change the page source on the fly to test either
<mdke> don't think that is the issue actually
<mdke> shaun's html had it too, and the mouseovers worked (http://people.gnome.org/~shaunm/ubuntu/index.html)
<Rocket2DMn> hmmmm
<Rocket2DMn> it would help if the source was formatted
<shaunm> there is absolutely nothing wrong with having multiple words in the class attribute
<shaunm> perfectly valid html, and actually quite common
<mdke> hi shaunm
<shaunm> hey
<mdke> we were just scratching around
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, check out the css classes that start with "li."
<Rocket2DMn> yours are different
<Rocket2DMn> shaunm's have more detail, like webkit and moz stuff
<mdke> hmm. I copied and pasted those I though
<mdke> +t
<shaunm> mdke: so two culprits here on the positioning thing
<shaunm> 1) body has "position: relative". I removed that in 3.0.1 exactly because of this bug you're seeing. is your customization adding it back?
<shaunm> 2) #round also has "position: relative". not sure if that's on purpose or what effect it's supposed to have
<shaunm> basically, "position: relative" totally screws up positioning code
<mdke> ah.
<mdke> I think i took it because i saw it in the 3.0.0 css
<shaunm> because what ends up happening in javascript (annoyingly) is that offsets are reported from the top-left of the document, but setting positions sets them from the top-left of the inner-most relative-positioned thing
<mdke> (for 1)
<mdke> for 2 it was in the code for help.ubuntu.com already I think
<shaunm> yeah, I set #round to "position:static" using firebug, and it screws some things up
<mdke> :/
<shaunm> ah, I see how that's laid out
<mdke> ok, so if i set the margins for #round instead maybe that will work
<mdke> I see that the mouseovers are working :)
<mdke> oh no, that won't work
<Rocket2DMn> im gonna go running guys, i'll bbl to work some more
<shaunm> there are other ways to get these things positioned
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: see ya
<shaunm> all right, there we go
<shaunm> now how do I get firebug to tell me everything I just changed?
<mdke> I'm making some slow progress... by defining the width of topcap and bottomcap and setting them margin: auto
<mdke> is that the sort of thing?
<mdke> that seems to work, I need to move the search bar but otherwise it looks alright
<jbicha> wondering if I should include instructions for how to change the # of workspaces in Unity
<jbicha> and if so, should it be via command line, gconf-editor, or ccsm
<mdke> jbicha: ccsm?
<jbicha> compiz-config-settings-manager
<jbicha> I believe ccsm has too many buttons & gconf-editor is not ideal either
<mdke> are any of them exposed via the gui?
<mdke> shaunm: you're a genius, all seems working now
<jbicha> those 2 apps are extra installs
<shaunm> mdke: all? you got all the topcap/bottomcap stuff fixed with the positioning?
<jbicha> but the command line is simple, just gconftool-2 --type=int --set /apps/compiz-1/general/screen0/options/hsize 2
<jbicha> and the same for vsize
<mdke> shaunm: I think so. Let me publish it and you can tell me if it works
<mdke> jbicha: gconf-editor is installed on my system, has it been removed now?
<shaunm> awesome, then I can stop editing ubuntu.xsl myself
<mdke> shaunm: I just removed position:relative and added width: 876px; margin: auto; - I think
<mdke> and I edited the html to close div page a bit earlier
<shaunm> yeah, I was finding a one-pixel glitch with the border vs the topcap image when I was doing that
<mdke> I don't seem to be seeing that
<shaunm> ok, I might have screwed up when I did it
<shaunm> I didn't see the problem when I did the edits in firebug, just when I tried to recreate them in ubuntu.xsl
<shaunm> I really wish firebug could give me some sort of diff against what came from the server. hard to remember what all I changed sometimes
<mdke> yeah, that does seem to be a strange absence
<shaunm> this looks nice
<shaunm> damn it, stop doing our help better than us
<shaunm> reminds me of high school, when I had to write a book report and I hadn't read the book. so I read my friend's book report, and wrote mine based on that.
<shaunm> he got a C. I got an A.
<mdke> hah. Hardly better - ours has been very rushed
<mdke> but we owe you a lot
<mdke> you should be very proud of Mallard
<mdke> and everything it has inspired
<mdke> damn. shaunm - do you remember what you did with sitename?
<jbicha> @mdke you're right, gconf-editor is installed by default, it's a bit complicated to give directions though
<shaunm> mdke: "clear: right; float: right; margin-top: 30px;" I think
<shaunm> I also have #cse-search-box as "float: right"
 * mdke nods
<Rocket2DMn> back
<Rocket2DMn> i see you got the mouseover thing working mdke
<mdke> shaunm: got it, thanks. I can't tell you how much I appreciate all your help with this sort of thing
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: with shaunm we have reimplemented some of the css
<Rocket2DMn> very cool
<mdke> ok, we're ready to build and go live then
<Rocket2DMn> will any of that CSS be used with the ubuntu-docs stuff or is the html too different?
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, also, are you going to update the branding in the upper left corner? it's still using the old image
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: most of the CSS comes from the ubuntu-docs stuff
<Rocket2DMn> cool
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: re branding, I hadn't intended to because it really requires a new image to be made - for me that can await the redesign of the whole website
<Rocket2DMn> hm i thought we had one in the ligs/images directory already
<Rocket2DMn> ah i guess not one that says Documentation on it
<mdke> right
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, am i correct in thinking that you committed the fix for bug 687995
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 687995 in ubuntu-docs "search.html is obsolete?" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/687995
<Rocket2DMn> looks like you took part of dustin's merge request - http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~kirkland/ubuntu-docs/687995/revision/597
<mdke> yes, but i'm worried we need to get a new value from him once 11.04 is live
<Rocket2DMn> is that something that is going to need to be updated every release?
<mdke> might be
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, i see ubuntu-docs 11.04.2 in natty.  the changelog is dated a week ago.  How come the relevant bugs did not get updated?
<Rocket2DMn> the debian changelog is small
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: were the bugs correctly mentioned in the changelog?
<Rocket2DMn> there arent any bugs mentioned in the changelog, but i have been committing with the --fixes option, the natty source branch is being linked to bugs
<mdke> the bugs have to be mentioned in the changelog
<mdke> but I'm not sure that your fixes came before that upload
<Rocket2DMn> the stuff ive done this last week wouldnt be there, but we have 68 bugs in Fix Committed state
<Rocket2DMn> that didnt all happen in the last week
<mdke> cripes
<mdke> no I doubt that I picked them up in the changelog...
<Rocket2DMn> do they have to be in the changelog to be fixed automatically on LP? I would think that bzr would pick up the rev number that is pulled into ubuntu release
<Rocket2DMn> any revs prior to that would be "fix released"
<Rocket2DMn> i guess thats not how it works...
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, do i need to make my way through the bugs and confirm that they are fixed and update the status?
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: I don't believe so. Perhaps if the branch is on the ubuntu project, but not if it is in an upstream project
<Rocket2DMn> i thought that in the past the branch was merged into the ubuntu project (eg lp:ubuntu/ubuntu-docs/natty)
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: yes, either that or we add them to the next changelog. But the amount of work is about the same
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: no, that's a separate branch which is imported based on uploads, not revisions in the upstream project
<Rocket2DMn> what does that mean "imported based on uploads"?
<Rocket2DMn> our normal branch is considered upstream right?
<mdke> each upload to ubuntu is a revision
<Rocket2DMn> how is that upload done?
<mdke> you mean how are uploads to Ubuntu done?
<mdke> the source package is sent via ftp using the "dput" command
<Rocket2DMn> so you get our trunk in a state you want, then push the whole directory structure via ftp?
<Rocket2DMn> (trunk or branch)
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, your last commit on 4/22 was to refresh pot files - did you do the upload after that? if so, i can safely say that anything committed in revisions prior to that is fixed in natty now
<Rocket2DMn> that was rev 617
<mdke> essentially the source package builds directly from an export of the branch using the command "debuild -S". Then that gets uploaded. But none fo the bzr revision gets uploaded
<Rocket2DMn> ok, i would have thought they would keep a bzr branch and just merge a range of revisions, i guess not though, thanks for explaining
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: sorry, having some internet slowness. The last revision that got uploaded is usually one called "New changelog entry"
<Rocket2DMn> ok mdke , in this case rev 616
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: if revision 617 was very close after that, it probably went too
<mdke> I probably just goforgot to do it
<Rocket2DMn> ok, i see you made some commits to h.u.c. branch, are those the latest docs in trunk now that dont align with what's deployed into natty repos?
<Rocket2DMn> (since weve made a lot of change sin the last week)
<mdke> correct
<Rocket2DMn> heh, alright, just makes it more confusing for me :)
<j1mc> i thought it would be a good idea to work on documentation for all of the apps that are installed by default on ubuntu. i thought something like evolution might be kind of challenging.
<j1mc> i didn't really think of this, though. http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/documentation/msg02107.html
<Rocket2DMn> ok i need to grab some food before i tackle updating these bug statuses
<Rocket2DMn> i'll go through and try to update as many as i can as fix released where applicable
<j1mc> Rocket2DMn: thanks
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: hoping to bring natty up to date very shortly though
<Rocket2DMn> lets just mark all fix committed as fix released :)
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: thanks for working on that
<Rocket2DMn> np
<Rocket2DMn> there are a ton of other bugs that are somewhat more difficult to fix that need our attention as well, but that can wait a couple of days
<jbicha> the subtitles' font looks smaller than their descriptions at http://doc.ubuntu.com/~mdke/natty/files.html
<jbicha> also the icon didn't copy for http://doc.ubuntu.com/~mdke/natty/a11y-icon.html
#ubuntu-doc 2011-04-30
<Captainkrtek> hello
<Rocket2DMn> wow thta was exhausting
<Rocket2DMn> just updated all the bugs that were fixed in natty, about 50 of them
<Captainkrtek> heh
<Captainkrtek> Im about to get started on some more docs
<Rocket2DMn> ive only been working on ubuntu-docs, i  might do a fresh install of natty this weekend on my desktop though
<Rocket2DMn> then i can work on natty docs moving forward
<Captainkrtek> been working on ubuntu-docs
<Captainkrtek> in natty now :)
<Rocket2DMn> my old laptop has natty but it doesnt support unity
<Captainkrtek> what are you using then?
<Captainkrtek> (inplace of unity)
<Rocket2DMn> it falls back to the classic desktoip
<Captainkrtek> ahh right
<Rocket2DMn> im running lucid right now on ext3 filesystems
<Captainkrtek> im running natty on ext4
<Captainkrtek> 6 cores :)
<Rocket2DMn> id like to upgrade to ext4, and im not sure if my current /home will work given how much configuration may have been updated
<Captainkrtek> yeah
<Captainkrtek> im still getting used to unity
<Captainkrtek> it's pretty different
<Rocket2DMn> i guess i can try with my existing /home, if it has issues ill reformat the partition and install ext3
<Rocket2DMn> err ext4 i mean
<Captainkrtek> yeah
<jbicha> Rocket2DMn: for best results, I'd do a clean partition of ext4 and then paste your former /home into it
<Captainkrtek> yeah ^
<Captainkrtek> if you need a server to store the files while moving them I can provide an ftp
<Rocket2DMn> ugh, means i need an ext3 or ext4 partition to copy from
<jbicha> btrfs might be usable for 11.10
<Rocket2DMn> the problem with putting them on a ftp or other filesystem is that permissions will be lost
<Captainkrtek> hmm
<Captainkrtek> use Ubuntu One?
<Rocket2DMn> i suppose i can format an old external HD as ext4 for now
<jbicha> isn't almost everything in your /home the same permissions? .gnupg is the only thing I'd care about
<Rocket2DMn> actually it wont be big enough..
<jbicha> and I'd be selective about which . folders I'd transfer
<jbicha> the performance difference between ext3 and ext4 probably won't matter too much if it's too big of a hassle
<Rocket2DMn> most of the gnome stuff will be irrelevant
<Rocket2DMn> jbicha, thats whta i was thinking as well
<Rocket2DMn> that's why i might just do ext4 for the installation but leave my home as ext3 and hope the difference between settings in 10.04 and 11.04 are not too significant that the software cant compensate
<Rocket2DMn> guess i better prepare some backups and get those out of the way
<Captainkrtek> trying to do this: <app>Files & Shares</app>
<Captainkrtek> mallard doesnt like ampersands in <app>
<Captainkrtek> any ideas?
<Captainkrtek> I could just replace it with "and"
<Rocket2DMn> can you use a character code or escape the ampersand?
<Captainkrtek> I found a workaround
<Captainkrtek> choosing a different app
<Captainkrtek> heh
<Rocket2DMn> boo
<Captainkrtek> well
<Captainkrtek> actually makes the doc. flow better
<Captainkrtek> by using this shortcut
<jbicha> &amp; is how you do it
<Captainkrtek> Rocket2DMn, this sound okay to you? "Open the <app>Home Folder</app> shortcut from the <gui>Unity Launcher</gui>"
<Captainkrtek> jbicha, okay
<Captainkrtek> jbicha, thanks :)
<jbicha> it's just called the launcher, no need to add Unity to the front of it
<Captainkrtek> k
<Captainkrtek> working on the files-share doc.
<jbicha> hmm, I've been capitalizing Launcher but not dash, we'll probably straighten that out in O
<Captainkrtek> yeah
<Rocket2DMn> im out of the loop on the unity stuff, i need to get caught up
<Rocket2DMn> ill be the one asking the questions!
<Captainkrtek> Unity is pretty good for dual displays, more viewing space
<shaunm> Captainkrtek: it's not a mallard-specific thing. & means something in xml, and you have to escape it as &amp; for a literal ampersand character
<shaunm> same for docbook or xhtml or dita or whatever else
<Captainkrtek> shaunm, yeah, google helped answer that ;-) Thanks
<shaunm> cool
<shaunm> google knows all
<Captainkrtek> jbicha, what do you need done after files-share?
<Captainkrtek> shaunm, skynet hehe
<Rocket2DMn> ok fellas im gonna sign off so i can make backups
<Rocket2DMn> ill be back tomorrow
<Captainkrtek> talk to you later!
<jbicha> ah, so we do talk about ccsm (unity-launcher-change-size)
<Captainkrtek> jbicha, have a small patch for you to apply
<Captainkrtek> jbicha, here ya go :-) http://paste.ubuntu.com/601075/
<jbicha> Captainkrtek: ok
<Captainkrtek> jbicha, any specific files you need looked at?
<jbicha> Captainkrtek: sorry, um you could just check_status and pick something
<Captainkrtek> k
<Captainkrtek> jbicha, was that patch good?
<jbicha> yup, it's good, I'll merge it by tomorrow
<jbicha> thank you
<Captainkrtek> k :) Ill get another patch done tonight
<Captainkrtek> had one question for you
<Captainkrtek> should I be submitting patches using: https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-doc/gnome-user-docs/natty/+register-merge
<jbicha> Captainkrtek: no, that's a proposal to merge our branch with another branch
<Captainkrtek> yeah looked different
<Captainkrtek> K time to get to work :)
<jbicha> but you can bzr push to your own branch and click the Propose Merging button there
<Krtek|Busy> k
<Krtek|Busy> also what about pages marked as REVIEW, can i proof them and mark as final?
<Krtek|Busy> hey Rocket2DMn :)
<Rocket2DMn> hello
<Rocket2DMn> just did a fresh install of natty, using unity now
<Krtek|Busy> how do you like it?
<Rocket2DMn> its a little weird, but its not bad
<Krtek|Busy> yeah
<Krtek|Busy> im so-so about it haha
<Rocket2DMn> trying to get it configured with my own little quirky preferences
<Rocket2DMn> guess ill take banshee for a spin here
<Krtek|Busy> Rocket2DMn, new here, can I review the files marked for REVIEW or is that just for committers?
<Rocket2DMn> Krtek|Busy, of course you can, you can post your feedback to the mailing list
<Krtek|Busy> okay thanks :)
<Krtek|Busy> then mark it from Review to Final? or Candidate?
<Rocket2DMn> Krtek|Busy, if you want to make changes, you can either post the bzr patch to the mailing list, or alternatively you can make your own branch and do a merge request
<Krtek|Busy> yeah I understand, just wondering if I do: <revision version="11.04" date="2011-04-15" status="review"/> to <revision version="11.04" date="2011-04-29" status="final"/>
<Rocket2DMn> hmm, i havent really looked at the gnome user docs actually since i just upgraded
<Rocket2DMn> hey jbicha , you here?
<Krtek|Busy> k
<Krtek|Busy> just wondering what status I set a reviewed file to if it looks good, candidate or final
<jbicha> yes, I'm mostly here
<jbicha> if the page was already written and you only made minor changes, setting it to final is fine for now
<Krtek|Busy> okay
<Krtek|Busy> thanks :)
<jbicha> candidate is for new pages and review is if it should have a 2nd person look it over
<Krtek|Busy> should I set that page I wrote on Internet safety to Candidate then?
<Rocket2DMn> after using unity for about an hour now, i think my biggest complaint is that some stuff is just tedious to get to, like configuration utilities and apps that i dont have stored in the bar
<Krtek|Busy> yeah
<Krtek|Busy> I used to have icons pinned to the top
<Krtek|Busy> you can't now as far as I know
<Rocket2DMn> yeah i had a row of stuff, and getting to the Adminstration menu was quick
<Krtek|Busy> same :/
<Rocket2DMn> also, it's a pain to try and open multiple terminals
<Krtek|Busy> YES
<Krtek|Busy> hahah
<Krtek|Busy> i have 3 terminals open
<Krtek|Busy> I try to open one and it opens em all
<Rocket2DMn> i didnt realize how much i used them until they are difficult to open
<Rocket2DMn> id like my workspaces to be visible in the panel too
<Krtek|Busy> yeah
<Rocket2DMn> it's clear that this panel is not as useful for those who multitask
<Rocket2DMn> gonna logout to refresh some settings and play with ym network card, bbl
<Krtek|Busy> submitting another diff.
<jbicha> Rocket2DMn: the Gnome 3 System Settings is really nice though, it's not in 11.04 though
<jbicha> there are tricks to multitasking but they aren't obvious
<jbicha> Meta+W is useful but it really needs to have the window titles visible too
<Rocket2DMn> ah the meta key brings up the app search
<Rocket2DMn> id rather only my favorite apps show in the side panel and other apps be in a bottom panel
<Rocket2DMn> convenience is lost if i have to scroll the side panel
<Rocket2DMn> cant seem to edit the icons of my cusom launchers in the panel either
<jbicha> no, editing the launchers is more complicated
<jbicha> I think you can make your own .desktop files but not completely sure how that works
<Rocket2DMn> well, i guess i should be happy that my install went smoothly anyway, my /home didnt get messed up
<Rocket2DMn> ooooooooooooooo
<Rocket2DMn> middle click opens another instance
<Rocket2DMn> e.g. of terminal
<Captainkrtek> aww
<Captainkrtek> wish I had a middle click :|
<Rocket2DMn> you on a laptop?
<Captainkrtek> nope
<Captainkrtek> Microsoft Arc Mouse
<Rocket2DMn> you dont have a scroll wheel?
<Captainkrtek> I do
<Captainkrtek> but it is flat
<Rocket2DMn> that is middle click
<Captainkrtek> non clickable
<Captainkrtek> it's weird haha
<jbicha> click left & right buttons at same time to simulate middle click
<jbicha> read the help, lol :-)
<Captainkrtek> doesnt work, or my coordination is off ;-)
<jbicha> oh ok
<Captainkrtek> lol
<Rocket2DMn> jbicha, nobody here reads documentation, that's blasphemy
<Captainkrtek> what documentation?
<Captainkrtek> hehe
<Rocket2DMn> well i think the 11.04 docs should go online soon
<Captainkrtek> yay
<Captainkrtek> I can power through some more outdated ones
<Captainkrtek> we have like 30ish left
<Rocket2DMn> matthew pushed updates to the branch earlier and i believe it gets polled daily for updates that go live to the site
<Captainkrtek> very cool!
<Captainkrtek> Final: 		 175
<Captainkrtek> Outdated: 	 25
<Captainkrtek> and my last commit removes another 5 of those I think
<Captainkrtek> so < 20
<Rocket2DMn> sweet
<Rocket2DMn> hmm im missing my xchat tray icon
<Captainkrtek> knocking out a few more now
<Captainkrtek> same :/
<Rocket2DMn> they really need to add the tray back in
<Captainkrtek> yea
<Captainkrtek> also the sidebar for unity is pissing me off, I hate having to hover over it to get it to pop up
<jbicha> you can set it to never hide
<Captainkrtek> oh
<jbicha> that's how my wife has hers
<jbicha> do you ever use gconf-editor?
<Captainkrtek> only saw two settings for unity in System Settings
<Captainkrtek> yes
<Captainkrtek> ill find it in there he
<Captainkrtek> then*
<jbicha> /apps/compiz-1/plugins/unityshell/screen0/options/launcher_hide_mode
<Captainkrtek> there
<Captainkrtek> messing with unity hid my xchat window :|
<Captainkrtek> that's very odd... just quit f spot photo manager, my whole desktop reinitiated
<jbicha> you can also try Unity 2D, it's probably a bit more stable
<jbicha> mdke: thank you, I should have checked the code myself to see what was going on but at least it's fixed
<mdke> jbicha: :)
<mdke> jbicha: think I've sorted the other one too
<mdke> jbicha: you in NY? You keep slightly unorthodox hours :D
<jbicha> Maryland at the moment
<jbicha> going to an online school but I probably should fix my sleep schedule
<mdke> ah, that explains it
<Lhademmor> ...is the Ubuntu DocTeam dead? According to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/MeetingAgenda it looks that way...
<Pendulum> Lhademmor: it's going, just doesn't have meetings regularly
<mdke> Lhademmor: funnily enough it's recently been very active
<Lhademmor> Ah, okay then. I may be interested in getting back into the documentation writing business (been out for a while), so I guess I'll stick around then :)
<mdke> Lhademmor: we're very keen for new contributors and it is quite an exciting time to get involved with a lot of work going on to document Unity changes
<mdke> go ahead and sign up to our mailing list to get the hang of what is going on
<Lhademmor> Oh.. I'm on Kubuntu right now so I don't know how able I will be at Unity docs.. :/
<Lhademmor> But I'll sign up now :)
<mdke> Kubuntu docs need help too
<Lhademmor> You mean the wiki? Or upstream app documentation?
<mdke> I was thinking of onboard help actually
<mdke> but probably everything needs help :)
<Lhademmor> I've just marked bug 340246 as invalid, seeing as Netbook Remix has been merged into Desktop. I hope I haven't done anything wrong :)
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 340246 in ubuntu-docs "Netbook Remix needs a seperate ubuntu-doc branch" [Wishlist,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/340246
<mdke> good plan
<Rocket2DMn> good morning
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, are you here?
<Rocket2DMn> ok guys, so i'm doing my first change to the gnome user docs, i've reviewed steve's display-2monitors.page thta he emailed a few days ago
<Rocket2DMn> i made some changes, moved it from a .stub to a .page, ran ./check_validation on the file, added the file to Makefile.am, ran ./check_makefil
<Rocket2DMn> I also updated the revision date and revision status to final
<Rocket2DMn> is there anything else that i need to do before i commit?
<Rocket2DMn> ping shaunm ^
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: that sounds all perfect
<Rocket2DMn> hey mdke , alright i'll commit it, will you have a look at the email that is generated please?
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: sure
<mdke> I look at em all :)
<Rocket2DMn> lol my email to the list got put on moderation queue for being too large
<mdke> hmm?
<Rocket2DMn> i responded to Steve's request for review wher ehe included his diff inline
<Rocket2DMn> the bzr diff must have made the email >40kb with my response
<mdke> is there an attachment?
<Rocket2DMn> no, for whatever reason it didnt come through as an attachment, i twas just text at the bottom of the email
<Rocket2DMn> another email of his thta i looked at did have an attachment, so i'm not sure what he did differently
<mdke> alright, I've stuck it through, it was only just over the limit
<Rocket2DMn> thanks, first time ive had that issue, didnt know there was even a limit
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: I guess <p>Note: should be <note><p>
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: also, in the <steps> section, it looks like you could separate out a few more items; like the first item is really two
<Rocket2DMn> yeah i was wondering about the note thing, i assumed mallard had such an element but i just wasnt sure.  that's just how he wrote it, i just formatted it
<Rocket2DMn> i'll go ahead and make some changes
<Rocket2DMn> give me a few though, still getting software loaded on my fresh natty install :)
<mdke> I would use "click" instead of "hit"
<mdke> or "choose"
<mdke> "by default" instead of "at default"
<mdke> steve isn't around I guess
<Rocket2DMn> +1 to your comments
<j1mc> mdke: Rocket2DMn ... is there anything that you all are working on that could benefit from additional attention now?
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, when i've been doing work recently, i've been putting new sentences on different lines so statements dont get bundled in translation
<Rocket2DMn> hey j1mc , one of the tasks i put on the oneiric page was to do a complete review of bugs
<Rocket2DMn> if we dont have other stuff to work on, we can start on some of those
<mdke> j1mc: we still have 25 docs marked as outdated that needs reviewing for unity compatibility I guess; also a few files to review and various stubs
<Rocket2DMn> unity docs take preference :)
<j1mc> ok - i'll take a look at the stubs list
<Rocket2DMn> What has been our preferred method for getting to the System Settings in the docs?
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: session menu (see mouse-disabletouchpad.page for an example)
<mdke> j1mc: the outdated ones are the highest priority if you have the inclination, because if they are wrong then we are changing strings for translators rather than just adding them
<Rocket2DMn> ok mdke , so the icon in the top menu then
<j1mc> for 11.10 we'll want to look at issues like this: http://i.imgur.com/aQ70u.png
<mdke> "Click the icon at the very right of the <gui>top panel</gui> and select <gui>System Settings</gui>."
<mdke> j1mc: yeah
<j1mc> are we calling it top panel?  :)  we had the discussion on this list about calling it the menu bar.
<j1mc> s/this/the
<mdke> j1mc: yes, but it would require us to change like 150 files I think
<mdke> it's an issue for the next release
<j1mc> ok
<mdke> maybe that's an exaggeration, 59 :)
<mdke> j1mc: also, I'd really like to look into clarifying the terminology with the developers, because it seems a bit unclear. Perhaps you could start this at UDS?
<Rocket2DMn> does yelp cache .page files? It doesnt seem to always open the updated ones when i tell it to
<mdke> no idea
<j1mc> are translators translating our docs now? it wouldn't be that difficult to write a script to change instances of 'top panel' and 'top bar' to 'menu bar'
<j1mc> Rocket2DMn: i've heard that mentioned before, but i've never experienced that problem.
<jbicha> Rocket2DMn: you have to wait a few seconds for yelp to finish closing
<jbicha> I run yelp . from the command line and wait for me to get the prompt back
<j1mc> yelp does close 5 seconds after you shut it down... ctrl-c will close it immediately
<Rocket2DMn> jbicha, that could be it, i usually like to compare the old and new ones side by side in yelp windows though, but i guess i cant do that anymore
<jbicha> yeah, that won't work :-(
<Rocket2DMn> i right click in nautilus and open with...
<mdke> j1mc: no, not right now - hopefully in the next few days
<jbicha> as j1mc said, you could just sed it to change the terms
<mdke> j1mc: but I think that "top panel" is easily understandable and would personally wait until we have had the discussion about terminology with the design people
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, any other suggestions for that display-2monitors page?
<j1mc> if we can get it corrected now, though, why not do it before the translators start their work?
<j1mc> it will make things more consistent for users.
<mdke> j1mc: are we sure it is the right terminology?
<mdke> I had understood that it was an open question
<Rocket2DMn> i havent had a chance to look at this page, but a fellow forum staff member posted this in a sticky on the forums, could be useufl - http://castrojo.tumblr.com/post/4795149014/the-power-users-guide-to-unity
<j1mc> i didn't read the post from ted gould. it seems inconsistent even amongst canonical folks. none of them call it 'top bar' or 'top panel' though
<mdke> I think some of the UI tools refer to panel, don't they?
<j1mc> yes
<mdke> so any inconsistency isn't really on our side :)
<j1mc> oh... no, sorry...
<j1mc> i misread what you said.
<j1mc> i'm not sure if any ui tools refer to the panel
<mdke> The "monitors" one does
<j1mc> ah, ok
<mdke> "Show monitors in panel"
 * mdke looks around for others
<mdke> the "clock" one refers to the "menu bar"
<jbicha> mdke: I think that's the only one; the power applet says "notification area"
 * mdke nods
<jbicha> I updated the askubuntu answer to say menu bar also
<mdke> well, I don't mind if we change it, if that's the right terminology
<j1mc> i'll read over what jbicha linked to from ted gould, but i think there's a decent rationale for 'menu bar' with unity.
<j1mc> and we should be at least internally consistent in the docs
<mdke> if it was me I would change the whole instruction to "In the <link>Session menu</link>, select <gui>System Settings</gui>".
<mdke> with the link pointing at an explanation of what the session menu is
<jbicha> we can do that to
<mdke> or better a mouseover glossary note
<mdke> does Mallard do such mouseover glossary notes?
<j1mc> i don't think so - would be a reasonable feature request, though.
<jbicha> I like the name "System menu" but obviously, design doesn't use that name so that's probably not a good name now
<mdke> the problem is that by adding the system settings, they have totally distorted the session menu
<mdke> and it's wholly undiscoverable anyway
<mdke> I can't understand why they didn't add it to the launchers underneath Applications
<j1mc> yeah, it is a big gripe from users
<mdke> brb
<jbicha> it's similar to what Gnome 3 does
<jbicha> the entire Dash needs a redesign
<mdke> a bit of stubbornness from them
<mdke> anyway, I think it is up for discussion at UDS, *nudges j1mc*
<j1mc> the location of the 'system settings' menu?
<jbicha> here's another terminology thing, the "Settings" buttons at the bottom of the indicators are inconsistent
<mdke> yeah
<j1mc> i will be working on the docs-session proposal this weekend. i'll let the docs team know when it's ready... we can edit it if i've missed something
<mdke> ok, I'm off for dinner + doctor who
<j1mc> thanks for your help, mdke
<j1mc> you too, Rocket2DMn and jbicha   : )
<j1mc> and shaunm!
<marcoceppi_> Hi
<Rocket2DMn> hi
<Captainkrtek> hey guys
<jbicha> marcoceppi_: hi, welcome!
<Captainkrtek> hey jbicha :)
<Rocket2DMn> anyone  know if you can rearrange launchers that you have pinned in the panel?
<Rocket2DMn> in unity that is
<marcoceppi_> For some reason my normal nick marcoceppi has been banned :\ anyways, hello!
<jbicha> Rocket2DMn: click the launcher icon and hold for a few seconds than drag it where you want it
<Rocket2DMn> ahh thanks jbicha
<jbicha> marcoceppi: once you bzr branch, you'll want to cd libs
<jbicha> then make gnome-help
<j1mc> Rocket2DMn: you can also move the launchers by clicking and moving them outside of the launcher area... and then dragging them to where you want them.
<Rocket2DMn> what do you mean outside of the launcer area, you mean to the dekstop?
<j1mc> yeah... kinda.  just move it out a little to the left
<j1mc> i mean, to the right.  :)
<Rocket2DMn> oh i see, just sorta swing it around rather than click-and-hold
<j1mc> yeah
<Rocket2DMn> gracias
<j1mc> on unity-2d, only the click-and-hold works
<Rocket2DMn> thats sorta random
<jbicha> you don't need to move outside the launcher anymore, that was 10.10 and early natty
<Rocket2DMn> j1mc, do you think the search docs we ship with natty fix bug 129505
<jbicha> but both work
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 129505 in ubuntu-docs "Docs required on desktop search tools" [Wishlist,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/129505
<Rocket2DMn> ie https://help.ubuntu.com/11.04/ubuntu-help/files-search.html
<j1mc> well, it's another option... another way of doing it
<mdke> hey guys
<Rocket2DMn> o/
<Rocket2DMn> how was dinner and dr who?
<mdke> both good thanks
<jbicha> mdke: marcoceppi  might be able to help us out with our CSS for the website
<j1mc> Rocket2DMn: i don't think that fixes it.
<mdke> cool, hi marcoceppi
<j1mc> i think they want something like tracker or the new search infrastructure that is just getting started
<Rocket2DMn> theres _another_ search infrastructure coming?
<marcoceppi> Hello! I do a lot of web development stuff, most recently was the fixes to apt.ubuntu.com to allow access not only to Firefox, but Chrome and other Ubuntu browsers (as well as new stylization)
<Rocket2DMn> that bug is rather old
<j1mc> i can't think of the name... it's what shows you the recent files.
<j1mc> zeitgeist
<mdke> marcoceppi: we're looking to update help.ubuntu.com for the new website branding in the coming release. It involves updating our static help files and the wiki theme - there is code already available for both I believe which can be ported reasonably easily
<jbicha> bless you
<j1mc> :)
<Rocket2DMn> yeah j1mc i just downloaded an app this morning to configure it zeitgeist a little
<marcoceppi> mdke: I'm branching the stuff from LP now
<Rocket2DMn> lol jbicha
<mdke> marcoceppi: cool. I'm happy to help you find stuff and review. Did you find the existing wiki theme?
<mdke> (it's here - lp:~mdke/ubuntu-docs/helpwiki-newtheme)
<Captainkrtek> Rocket2DMn, thanks for your edits on the display-2monitors doc :)
<Rocket2DMn> np man, dual monitors is a lot easier these days than it used to be
<Captainkrtek> yeah definetly
<Rocket2DMn> 3 or 4 years ago i couldve written a small novel on how to setup dual head
<Captainkrtek> can you look at a file for me?
<marcoceppi> mdke: Cool, I just branched lp:~ubuntu-core-doc/gnome-user-docs/natty - not sure if that's also another part to look at
<Captainkrtek> it's the only candidate now I think
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: there was one other thing on the patch earlier. We have been introducing line breaks rather more forcifully in some of these files; say every 80 or 100 characters
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, i usually try to put each sentence or statement on a new line
<Rocket2DMn> wouldnt that make translations better - to translate a whole sentence, no more no less?
<Captainkrtek> mdke, you're Matthew right?
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: line breaks don't cause any problems for translations
<mdke> Captainkrtek: yes
<Captainkrtek> mdke, just wanted to say thanks as well :-)
<j1mc> i'll be back later, all.
<mdke> marcoceppi: ok so there are two different parts to help.ubuntu.com, there is the static html part (which is generated from our bzr branches for ubuntu-docs) and the wiki part
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, i thought each "line" made a new translation string
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: nope
<mdke> marcoceppi: so the code for generating the static html is all in the gnome-user-docs/natty branch in libs/ubuntu.xsl
<Rocket2DMn> so how does it know where a string begins and ends?
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: it uses the tags
<marcoceppi> Ah, okay
<Rocket2DMn> hmm ok
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, see bug 510650 :)
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 510650 in ubuntu-docs "Standardize source formatting of ubuntu-docs source xml" [Wishlist,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/510650
<mdke> marcoceppi: have you worked with xsl before?
<Captainkrtek> Rocket2DMn, do you think you could look at net-security-tips.page ? need someone to review it
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: yeah, it's a good idea - perhaps part of rewriting the style guide which j1mc mentioned working on...
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, the only way i can think of to really enforce formatting is to use an autoformatter
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: pretty difficult to enforce it but we can encourage it. Putting a vertical line in gedit at 80 characters is working to remind me
<marcoceppi> mdke: Yes, but limited work. I understand the format
<Rocket2DMn> yeah mdke , i have that line as well
<mdke> marcoceppi: ok, the file should be reasonably self-explanatory then. Most of the html and css is imported from the default yelp stylesheets, and we just customise the high level stuff
<Rocket2DMn> tbh 80 characters is a little short these days, but if people are working out of terminals, it is still the de facto standard i suppose
<mdke> 80 or 100 I guess
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: ref - http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-doc-list/2011-April/msg00041.html
<marcoceppi> mdke: Sounds pretty straight forward. At least you guy use mostly standard class names and such :)
<Rocket2DMn> i usually gravitate toward about 120, but that's just me
<Rocket2DMn> lol mdke , yeah, i can do that
<Rocket2DMn> single sentences dont usually go longer than that anyway
 * mdke nods
<mdke> marcoceppi: I guess you're familiar with the various templates around for the new branding?
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, the commit i made after the initial one is a little cleaner after i broke up some of the steps and broke down some sentences
<Rocket2DMn> i can go add some more line breaks now if youd like
<Rocket2DMn> Captainkrtek, sorry for being slow here, i can review that pag ein a bit
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: it's no big deal, I was just mentioning it. Plenty of other files don't do this
<Rocket2DMn> ok mdke , duly noted for the future
<Captainkrtek> Rocket2DMn, thank you very much, check the mailing list for the diff :)
<Captainkrtek> no rush
<Rocket2DMn> Captainkrtek, yup
<Captainkrtek> also jbicha submitted the files-share page
<Captainkrtek> and some others
<Captainkrtek> we should be down to <20 outdated docs
<Rocket2DMn> Captainkrtek, do you still have the diff available in your branch checkout
<Rocket2DMn> the pastebin is not formatted at all
<Rocket2DMn> or is that just how you wrote it?
<Captainkrtek> Rocket2DMn, let me see
<Rocket2DMn> Captainkrtek, a couple pieces of feedback so far
<Captainkrtek> Rocket2DMn, I don't :/ the pastebin must've done that
<Captainkrtek> let me see if I have another copy
<Rocket2DMn> first, please use indentation/formatting of the XML (child elements should be indented further than their parent elements)
<Rocket2DMn> second, please try not to use contractions, e.g. say "you are" instead of "you're"
<mdke> Captainkrtek: you can try pushing your branch to Launchpad instead of the pastebin. So "bzr push lp:~username/gnome-user-docs/net-security-tips" (after committing). Alternatively attach our patch to a bug report
<Captainkrtek> okay
<Captainkrtek> thanks :)
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2011-April/015671.html
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, some of the docs i've been seeing come across as rather informal, lots of usage of "you" - are we OK with this or do we prefer to limit that?
<mdke> see Phil's comment above
<Rocket2DMn> ah
<jbicha> they just keep changing the rules on us! :-)
<Rocket2DMn> yeah no kidding
<mdke> hooray for Clint Byrum
<Rocket2DMn> I usually prefer to keep it professional, it looks cleaner and tends to keep at bay digressions and other material that may not be immediately relevant or is just superflous
<mdke> there is quite a difficult balance
<Rocket2DMn> for instance, why say, "After you click X, then you can click Y," when you can say, "Click X, then click Y."
<mdke> yes, I agree with that - less is more there
<mdke> for me some regular contractions are fine to keep things informal, but when you start using informality that could be misunderstood by users or translators, we are in trouble
<jbicha> I like to be real concise but I'm learning that I can be misunderstood when I don't use enough words
<mdke> can everyone test gnome-user-docs 3.0.0+git20110406ubuntu9 in natty-proposed
<Rocket2DMn> jbicha, i think the problem there is that our vocabulary is not consistent or even understood yet
<Rocket2DMn> we hvae to say "click the icon in the upper right to open the session menu, then choose X" rather than "go to the session menu and choose X"
<mdke> that might be part of the problem
<mdke> but informality vs formality is a tricky issue in its own right
<mdke> it's really a question of common sense / judgment once we have laid down some basic guidelines
<jbicha> I believe the session menu is the only confusing one that requires the extra words
<jbicha> but it's mentioned so many times
<Rocket2DMn> heh yeah we should just import a string every time we want to open that menu
<jbicha> logging out for a bit
<Rocket2DMn> &open-session-menu-already!!;
<Captainkrtek> Rocket2DMn, http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~steven.richards/+junk/gnome-help/revision/1551
<Rocket2DMn> sexy
<Captainkrtek> :-D
<Rocket2DMn> if you really wanted to format it cleanly, everything inside the <page> element would be indented from that, but i know other docs arent doing that so its ok
<Rocket2DMn> (like you did with <info>)
<Rocket2DMn> Captainkrtek, i would get rid of the ... at the end of the description.  a single period is fine
<Captainkrtek> okay
<Captainkrtek> ill go make more fixes and re-push
<Rocket2DMn> let me finish reading before you make extra effort
<Captainkrtek> k
<Rocket2DMn> "are always vulnerabilities, most of those l"
<Rocket2DMn> i would say "are always vulnerabilities, many of which liel"
<Rocket2DMn> err sp error, you get the idea
<Captainkrtek> yeah
<Captainkrtek> whoops
<Rocket2DMn> in your last list, i would mention to not open attachments from people you dont know
<Captainkrtek> sure
<Rocket2DMn> and dont respond to them
<Rocket2DMn> or click link
<Rocket2DMn> s
<Captainkrtek> yeah good idea
<Rocket2DMn> that seems not necessary -> that seems unnecessary
<Captainkrtek> most of those lie --> most of those lay ?
<Rocket2DMn> consequences you could have by submitting such infoformation -> consequences if that information is compromised by identity thieves or other criminals
<Rocket2DMn> note that you misspelled information as well
<Captainkrtek> whoops
<Captainkrtek> yeah
<Captainkrtek> thought I fixed that last night haha
<Rocket2DMn> well-known; providing anyone/anything -> make that two sentences
<Captainkrtek> k
<Rocket2DMn> use semicolons very rarely, it's difficult enough to use them correctly in english, i can only image how to translate their usage
<Captainkrtek> yeah
<Rocket2DMn> "running necessary remote-access services that you need" - that is repetitive, just say "running remote access services that you need"
<Rocket2DMn> "leaves your computer open to remote access" -> "leaves your computer open to intrusion"
<Captainkrtek> k
<Captainkrtek> "whether" --> "whether you use"
<Rocket2DMn> "You can also ensure secure remote-access by utilizing a firewall" - you can't ensure security.  Maybe say "Consider using a firewall""
<Captainkrtek> yeah true
<Rocket2DMn> most users may not even know what a firewall is or have any idea that there is such a thing as a hardware firewall
<Captainkrtek> how about this
<Captainkrtek> "Consider using a firewall to help protect your computer from intrusion,
<Captainkrtek> whether you use hardware or software is your choice"
<Captainkrtek> true
<Rocket2DMn> if there are docs on firewalls, you can link to those
<Captainkrtek> ahh there is one I think
<Rocket2DMn> there are in the ubuntu-docs i bleieve, and definitely are on the community wiki
<Captainkrtek> net-firewall-on-off.page
<Captainkrtek> adding
<Captainkrtek> Consider using a <link xref="net-firewall-on-off.page">firewall</link> to help
<Captainkrtek> protect your computer from intrusion.
<Rocket2DMn> yeah i like that
<Captainkrtek> sound good? :-)
<Captainkrtek> cool :D
<Captainkrtek> okay let me just go make some changes and re-read it myself
<Captainkrtek> also, this sound good? "there are always vulnerabilities, most of those lay in the hands of the end user."
<Rocket2DMn> not really a fan of the second part
<Captainkrtek> yeah...
<Captainkrtek> ill fix it
<Rocket2DMn> first i dont think its necessarily accurate, also "lay in the hands of" sounds weird
<Captainkrtek> well the definition of lie does not include placing something
<Rocket2DMn> a native english speaker will understand, but it's a cultural phrase
<Captainkrtek> hrmm
<Captainkrtek> actually lie does include that
<Rocket2DMn> not sure what the word im looking for is, but i think you get my point
<Captainkrtek> yeah
<Captainkrtek> ill re-word it
<Captainkrtek> "there are always vulnerabilities, mostly ones that the user is in control of."
<Captainkrtek> control of still sounds odd
<Captainkrtek> "responsible for" ?
<Rocket2DMn> you know, i dont think that second part of the sentence even applies to that list anyway
<Rocket2DMn> it applies to the second list about emails and whatnot
<Captainkrtek> true....
<Captainkrtek> just trying to imply that the user in in control of their own security
<Rocket2DMn> "Despite the security measures taken to ensure your installation of Linux is secure, there are always vulnerabilities. As an average..."
<Captainkrtek> yeah that does sound good
<Captainkrtek> Ill do that then
<Captainkrtek> want me to change it to final?
<Rocket2DMn> make those changes and push to your branch again
<Captainkrtek> k
<Captainkrtek> just proofing it one more time
<Captainkrtek> Rocket2DMn, http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~steven.richards/+junk/gnome-help/revision/1552
<Rocket2DMn> Captainkrtek, give me 10 minutes
<Captainkrtek> no rush :)
<Rocket2DMn> gotta finish spamming everyone's inbox with bugmail
<Captainkrtek> hehe
<Captainkrtek> I had to make a filter in gmail for the bug lists I follow
<Rocket2DMn> ok, sorry about that
<Captainkrtek> no problem :)
<Rocket2DMn> let me grab your branch to see the diff, its confusing looking at a single commit on LP
<Captainkrtek> yeah
<Rocket2DMn> for its' robust
<Rocket2DMn> lose the apostrophe
<Rocket2DMn> in fact just say "the robust security" since after you say it is
<Captainkrtek> oh okay
<Rocket2DMn> "amount of people that use it," - end the sentence there and start a new one
<Rocket2DMn> well..
<Rocket2DMn> hmmm
<Rocket2DMn> i would say "number of people" not "amount".  if you want it in one sentence, use a dash instead of a comma
<Rocket2DMn> i dont think open-source needs the dash though, it's just two words
<Captainkrtek> k
<Rocket2DMn> "Despite the security measures taken to ensure your installation of Linux is secure" is also repetitive, just say "Despite the measures taken..."
<Captainkrtek> k
<Rocket2DMn> hold on there are poliec outside my apt
<Captainkrtek> uh oh
<Captainkrtek> hahahaha
<Police2DMn> :|
<Rocket2DMn> should be alright, my neighbor downstairs has some type of mental handicap and has been carrying on, maybe somebody called the police.  not sure if they'll knock on my door, but i just wanted to put the gun away so as not to worry anyone
<Rocket2DMn> lets continue
<Captainkrtek> hehe no problem
<Rocket2DMn> "still prone to" - not sure if prone in the right word
<Rocket2DMn> maybe susceptible?
<Captainkrtek> hmmm sure
<Police2DMn> Rocket2DMn: the gun?
<Rocket2DMn> i went shooting earlier so i left it out with the intent of cleaning it
<Police2DMn> ah, ok. i will stand down now.
<Rocket2DMn> i just put it back in the safe for now
<Captainkrtek> also, what about userbase to user base?
<Captainkrtek> or is it just one word
<Rocket2DMn> two words is probably better
<Captainkrtek> k
<Captainkrtek> and the capitalization of internet?
<Captainkrtek> should it be
<Rocket2DMn> i dont thin it should unless its the start of a sentence or other pronoun
<Captainkrtek> k
<Rocket2DMn> are there any links for Phishing scams?
<Captainkrtek> I dont think so
<Captainkrtek> I could write one later maybe
<Captainkrtek> what about linking to external sites?
<Rocket2DMn> alright just wondering
<Rocket2DMn> I would capitalize or otherwise markup "ssh" and "vnc"
<Rocket2DMn> could mark them as apps
<Captainkrtek> oh
<Captainkrtek> yeah last night I made edits
<Captainkrtek> forgot to save
<Captainkrtek> oooh do we have an article on ssh?
<Captainkrtek> hmm nope
<Rocket2DMn> we certainly have one in the serverguide
<Rocket2DMn> not sure if anything ships with the gnome docs though
<Captainkrtek> yeah
<Captainkrtek> I dont think so
<Captainkrtek> just looked
<Rocket2DMn> well otherwise i think it looks good Captainkrtek
<Captainkrtek> :)
<Captainkrtek> Ill commit for the final time
<Captainkrtek> want me to change "candidate" to "final" ?
<Rocket2DMn> sure
<Captainkrtek> done, uploading
<Captainkrtek> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~steven.richards/+junk/gnome-help/revision/1553
<Rocket2DMn> the page doesnt validate
<Captainkrtek> ?
<Captainkrtek> hmm
<Captainkrtek> let me see
<Rocket2DMn> use check_validation.sh
<Captainkrtek> probably a tag somewhere
<Rocket2DMn> just feed it the filename
<Captainkrtek> yeah tag error
<Captainkrtek> weird...
<Captainkrtek> all the tags look okay...
<Captainkrtek> ahh
<Captainkrtek> I see where
<Rocket2DMn> man something is chewing up RAM on my computer
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: saw your bug comment about the validation script. Unfortunately the output is terrible
<Captainkrtek> how much ram do you have?
<Rocket2DMn> 2GB
<Captainkrtek> custom pc?
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, sorry for all the bugmail with tagging
<Captainkrtek> K it validates now
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, which comment is that again?
<mdke> Even
<mdke> the validation checker can be confusing when it spits out a problem, I
<mdke> spent a full five minutes trying to track down a silly problem today
<mdke> when it told me the document was invalid, and it was a small document at
<mdke> that.
<Rocket2DMn> ah yeah
<Captainkrtek> Rocket2DMn, http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~steven.richards/+junk/gnome-help/revision/1554
<Captainkrtek> forgot  </p></item> tags
<Rocket2DMn> FF is chewing up 850MB!
<Captainkrtek> get chromium :D
<Rocket2DMn> some plugin must be leaking
<Rocket2DMn> Captainkrtek, standby while i fix my memory issue, i keep swapping
<Captainkrtek> no problem
<jbicha> how many tabs do you have going?
<jbicha> Chromium uses more memory than Firefox
<Captainkrtek> I have 28 tabs open in Chrome
<Captainkrtek> running fine haha
<Rocket2DMn> i may need to reinstall my plugins since i installed a 64 bit system using an old 32 bit home directory
<mdke> does anyone by any chance understand debian packaging?
<Captainkrtek> http://www.debian.org/doc/maint-guide/ ?
<mdke> I mean does anyone in the channel already know debian packaging?
<Captainkrtek> I don't sorry :/
<jbicha> I know some
<mdke> I'm playing with a package of ubuntu-docs for oneiric
<mdke> I want to remove the browser homepage because it isn't used anymore (except for epiphany, where I expect a new solution to be implemented)
<Rocket2DMn> i was just looking at that bug mdke , still showing 10.10 :)
<mdke> there is a weird system of update-alternatives in place
<mdke> and I need to remove that
<Rocket2DMn> do we have oneiric branches now?
<Captainkrtek> I didn't see any when I checked the other day
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: I have one locally but it will take a long time to upload it...
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, i'm in no hurry, i'd rather get as much hammered out in the natty branches as we can first
<Rocket2DMn> we still have planning to do anyway
<Captainkrtek> Rocket2DMn, Im going to get back to work on the outdated docs
<mdke> jbicha: so I'm trying an "ubuntu-docs.preinst" as follows: http://paste.ubuntu.com/601499/
<jbicha> sometimes they get upset if we don't put the stuff in O first if we're doing a SRU
<mdke> jbicha: but I'm way out of my depth so figures I would ask
<mdke> exactly, that is the reason I'm looking at it
<jbicha> I'm probably out of my depth too but I'll look
<mdke> thx
<Rocket2DMn> Captainkrtek, ok, i just grabbed your branch.  i'll have one last look and commit it
<Captainkrtek> Rocket2DMn, thanks!
<Rocket2DMn> Captainkrtek, in the future, when new pages are added you need to add them to the makefile (see check_makefile.sh).  i'll take care of tihs one though
<Captainkrtek> oh okay
<Captainkrtek> never learned that
<Captainkrtek> Ill commit that now
<Captainkrtek> the Makefile.am right?
<Rocket2DMn> Captainkrtek, yeah, i already added it in my checkout
<Captainkrtek> okay
<Captainkrtek> will make sure to do next time :)
<Rocket2DMn> Captainkrtek, are you going to keep working out of this branch?
<Captainkrtek> yeah I think from now on
<Rocket2DMn> ok, it may be OK for a bit, go ahead and add the makefile entry then so we're on the same page
<Captainkrtek> already done
<Captainkrtek> ./check_makefile.sh
<Captainkrtek> 138a139
<Captainkrtek> > net-security-tips.page
<Rocket2DMn> commit/push please :)
<Captainkrtek> k
<Rocket2DMn> i'll take your version of it so we dont conflict in future merges
<Captainkrtek> bzr add makefile.am right?
<Rocket2DMn> no the makefile is already there, in the parent directory
<Captainkrtek> the one in gnome-help or natty
<Rocket2DMn> gnome-help
<Captainkrtek> k
<Captainkrtek> hmm...
<Rocket2DMn> just add it below the net-security.page line
<mdke> careful to add the slash
<mdke> otherwise everything breaks :)
<Rocket2DMn> boom
<mdke> it's a very fragile system!
<Captainkrtek> looks good I think...
<Captainkrtek> commiting
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, no such thing as a sturdy build system
<Captainkrtek> pushin
<mdke> guess not
<Rocket2DMn> yeah its what happens when you want things t obe configurable
<Rocket2DMn> however, you're not a true member of any dev team until you break the build :)
<mdke> I'd better upload straight away then
<Captainkrtek> Rocket2DMn, K, check my branch again
<Captainkrtek> 1555 is the revision
<Rocket2DMn> lol mdke , it means you have the buy the drinks though
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> ok I'll test it
<jbicha> mdke: that commands removes the alternative so I guess it's right
<Captainkrtek> jbicha, you see the files-share commit I did yesterday?
<jbicha> yes and I meant to get to it by now
<Captainkrtek> okay cool
<Captainkrtek> there are some docs i want to work on just waiting for that commit to be made so I don't get all messed up in my branch
<mdke> Captainkrtek: you can create a new branch for each piece of work you do. If you work in a shared repository, it should be all pretty fast
<mdke> Captainkrtek: each time your branch gets merged, just discard it
<Captainkrtek> okay
<Captainkrtek> I have done that a few times already haha
<jbicha> what's the syntax for making new branches like that?
<jbicha> or can you point to the help page for that
<Captainkrtek> bzr push lp:~steven.richards/+junk/BRANCHNAME
<Captainkrtek> replace ~steven.richards with your nick
<mdke> start a shared repo: mkdir gnome-user-docs; cd gnome-user-docs; bzr init-repo .
<Captainkrtek> oh thought you meant a launchpad repo
<mdke> get the main branch bzr branch lp:~ubuntu-core-doc/gnome-user-docs/natty natty
<mdke> start a new branch each time: bzr branch natty sound-work
<mdke> start a new branch each time: bzr branch natty hardware-work
<mdke> etc
<mdke> pushing them to Launchpad is a bit of a pain right now though
<Captainkrtek> mdke, worked fine for me
<mdke> it's slow
<Captainkrtek> not that bad
<mdke> because Launchpad uses the upstream Gnome branch as the default stacking branch
<Rocket2DMn> Captainkrtek, it is committed
<Captainkrtek> Rocket2DMn, thanks!
<mdke> when we move over to the ubuntu-docs project and set the oneiric branch as the main branch, sending new branches will be very fast, because bzr doesn't send all the revision history
<mdke> just the new stuff in a particular branch
<Rocket2DMn> Captainkrtek, no problem, thanks for your work man
<Captainkrtek> Rocket2DMn, same to you! I'm new here
<Captainkrtek> I come from the Android community
<Rocket2DMn> oh you're one of those heathens!
<Captainkrtek> hahahaha
<Rocket2DMn> ;)
<Captainkrtek> I develop ROMs and apps
<Rocket2DMn> thats cool, ive only done a little android development
<Captainkrtek> and host ROMs on a server, about 4~5TB used a month 0_o
<Captainkrtek> It might make for a good ubuntu mirror
<Rocket2DMn> thats a lot of space
<Captainkrtek> that's BW not space, sorry
<Captainkrtek> my friend owns a DC, got me a good deal on a nice box
<mdke> hmm, no this isn't quite working
<mdke> I will have to solicit some -devel help I think
<Rocket2DMn> hmm guess ill have to install lucid on a vm now
<Captainkrtek> what's up Rocket2DMn ?
<Rocket2DMn> well i need a lucid install in order to check some things from time to time
<Rocket2DMn> since i was in lucid before i didnt need a vm :)
<Captainkrtek> ahh
<Captainkrtek> same here
<Captainkrtek> getting tired of the unity launcher popping up :/
#ubuntu-doc 2011-05-01
<Captainkrtek> brb
<Rocket2DMn> gonna go pick up my pizza, bbiab
<jbicha> mdke:  I filed bug 773105 re: using firefox's start page by epiphany & others
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 773105 in ubuntu-website "start.ubuntu.com should redirect based on user's language" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/773105
<Captainkrtek> hey guys
<Captainkrtek> Is there a way to set opacity of the top bar in Ubuntu Classic? cause if not, when you have a dark background you can't read the test of Applications, Places, etc.
<Captainkrtek> any commiters around?
<Captainkrtek> if so: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~steven.richards/+junk/gnome-help/revision/1553
<jbicha> Captainkrtek: do you have bluetooth?
<Captainkrtek> jbicha, yes
<Captainkrtek> little dongle
<Captainkrtek> jbicha, ^
<Captainkrtek> hey nhandler
<nhandler> Hello Captainkrtek
<Captainkrtek> have a patch if you wish to apply it http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~steven.richards/+junk/gnome-help/revision/1553
<Captainkrtek> just reviewed a few pages
<nhandler> Captainkrtek: I don't have commit access and I'm about to head to bed
<Captainkrtek> oh okay
<Captainkrtek> just saw your mask saying ubuntu.member
<nhandler> Yeah, I'm an Ubuntu Member, but not part of the core doc team
<Captainkrtek> gotc
<Captainkrtek> gotcha*
<Captainkrtek> thought I was as well, no mask for me :P
<nhandler> m/63
<Captainkrtek> ?
<Captainkrtek> how do you get the ubuntu/member/nickname mask?
<tsimpson> !member | Captainkrtek
<ubot2> Captainkrtek: Ubuntu Membership means recognition of a significant and sustained contribution to Ubuntu and the Ubuntu community.  For more info see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership
<tsimpson> become an ubuntu member, and you get a hostmask cloak
<Captainkrtek> ahh cool
<Captainkrtek> guess I'll have to wait 6 months :|
<Madpilot> Captainkrtek, if you just want to mask your IP in the meantime, Freenode will cloak you. #freenode and ask.
<Captainkrtek> well I already had an unaffiliated and now I have the donor one
<Captainkrtek> so I'm good for now
<Madpilot> Captainkrtek, you're currently showing your IP, not a mask, fwiw. Not identified to services right now?
<Captainkrtek> oh whoops
<Captainkrtek> there
<Captainkrtek> thought I had my ns ident in my xchat onconnect
<Captainkrtek> oh still there...
<Captainkrtek> odd
<Captainkrtek> yeah im cloaked now
<mdke> morning all
<j1mc> I'm not sure what to do with this bug report: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-docs/+bug/774575
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 774575 in ubuntu-docs "package ubuntu-docs 11.04.2 failed to install/upgrade: ããã±ã¼ã¸ãéå¸¸ã«çç¾ããç¶æã«é¥ãã¾ããã åé¤ãè¡ãåã«ãã®ããã±ã¼ã¸ãåã¤ã³ã¹ãã¼ã«ãã¹ãã§ãã" [Undecided,New]
<Rocket2DMn> is bug 651707 actually an ubuntu-docs one? Or does that belong to the installer package (debian-installer?)
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 651707 in ubuntu-docs "brltty refers to http://access.ubuntu.com/braille but that doesn't exist" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/651707
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: no, I think that is invalid for ubuntu-docs
<mdke> hey j1mc
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, quick question about images.  I'm going through those in libs/img/.  There are some that are not mentioned in any of the /C/ directories but still have references in po files
<Rocket2DMn> why would that be, and is it safe to remove the image?
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: yes I guess it is safe, the English has probably moved on since the image was added. But I wouldn't bother working on that, as none of the files will be in Oneiric
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: removing images that aren't used in the package isn't worth doing for an SRU either
<mdke> (as it doesn't affect the binary package)
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, i'm looking at bug 681679 - i was going to add them to the fix-urls.sh script and add the images that arne't even currently there
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 681679 in ubuntu-docs "Incorrect image urls on help.ubuntu.com Applications page" [Low,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/681679
<Rocket2DMn> the others i was going to update to use the correct image, some are outdated
<Rocket2DMn> i was just going to do it for all images that are being used
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: cool, yes adding images and fixing links is definitely worth doing :)
<Rocket2DMn> no string change is associated with any of that
<Rocket2DMn> is it a problem if i remove the unused images?
<Rocket2DMn> i already have them marked
<mdke> nope, wouldn't have thought so
<Rocket2DMn> ok i'll just go ahead and do it
<mdke> do you think that we should keep the revision history from gnome-user-docs in our oneiric ubuntu-docs branch?
<mdke> pro: possible greater ease in merging from upstream master (perhaps unlikely to happen and may require manual work anyway)
<mdke> con: it's about 130,000KB download
<mdke> I think myself that it may well be appropriate to start afresh this time
<mdke> we can't take revision history from both ubuntu-docs and gnome-user-docs; gnome-user-docs is more relevant to the work we will do in oneiric but I think it's probably better to start without revision history given the size
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, if we dont think we will ever need to reference the history, then dont take it if its a problem
<Rocket2DMn> as long as we still have the history for the natty branch, we should be ok
<mdke> yeah, we would still have it there
<jbicha> bzr really needs a light checkout option, Ubuntu distributed development is cool because you can fix something easily
<jbicha> but if you have to download a few hundred MB slowly first, it's not as cool
<jbicha> the Desktop Team cheats and only has the debian/ directory in bzr which confuses newbies like me
<jbicha> but I think I figured it out now
<Captainkrtek> hey jbicha submitted some more diffs
<Captainkrtek> I have to go though, mountain biking :-)
<jbicha> ok, have fun!
<shaunm> mdke: hey, you were talking about glossary terms the other day, yes?
<shaunm> I have a back-of-the-brain idea for an extension, would allow us to do things like a quick definition popup on hover, click through for more details
<shaunm> all aggregated in a very mallard-y way. actually kind of a mix between a glossary and an index
<shaunm> how interested would people be in this?
<shaunm> um, put another way, I've got three extensions I'm working on: facets/tagging, conditional processing, and the glossary stuff
<shaunm> tell me how you'd prefer I prioritize
<jbicha> which is more useful to users?
<mdke> shaunm: I think that sounds pretty cool - I think the glossary thing could be quite important myself
<mdke> shaunm: what's an extension?
<j1mc> shaunm: facets/tagging. is that like providing keywords?
<Captainkrtek> back
<Captainkrtek> how's it going everyone?
#ubuntu-doc 2012-04-23
<sladen> https://ubuntu.optimalworkshop.com/optimalsort/ubuntuia <-- for anyone who's interesting in helping to re-sort/re-design the main ubuntu.com
<sladen> should take about 15 minutes to complete.  It's a card sort of all the currenct categories
<jbicha> dpm: https://help.ubuntu.com/12.04/ubuntu-help/ works now with MultiViews :)
<dpm> jbicha, that is...
<dpm> truly awesome
<jbicha> I think it just needed this config file (and Apache setup to AllowOverrides) https://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-doc/ubuntu-docs/help.ubuntu.com/view/head:/12.04/ubuntu-help/.htaccess
<artnay> jbicha: doesn't work for me, at least it serves the content in English
<jbicha> artnay: what's your browser language?
<artnay> jbicha: Finnish
<artnay> jbicha: https://help.ubuntu.com/12.04/ubuntu-help/index.html.fi works fine
<Darkwing> jbicha: you guys figure out when the SRU for 12.04.1 will get sent to translations yet?
<peppe84> jbicha, with browser in italian setting work
<jbicha> artnay: hmm, Finnish works on my apache localhost, but not at help.ubuntu.com, I can try an override
<jbicha> it looks like help.ubuntu.com only gets updated once a day in the early morning so you can try again tomorrow
<artnay> jbicha: will do, thanks.
<dpm> jbicha, you need overrides for a bunch of languages
<dpm> jbicha, here's a reminder of what I've got on the test site: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/934364/
#ubuntu-doc 2012-04-24
<GunnarHj> mdke: Hi Matt, made an MP where I suggest that a couple of previous links that somehow 'slipped away' are reinserted: https://code.launchpad.net/~gunnarhj/ubuntu/precise/ubuntu-docs/missing-links/+merge/103121
<GunnarHj> Do you agree that an early Precise SRU is a reasonable target?
<PaddyLandau> Hello everyone.
<PaddyLandau> I believe I should discuss documentation on this channel. I'm not at all accustomed to using Chats, so please forgive me if I step out of line.
<PaddyLandau> Keith Burnett, over on Ubuntu Forums, has created a superb poster for Unity. Its target audience is those migrating from 10.04 to 12.04 (Unity), but in my opinion it would also be superb for people coming from Windows.
<PaddyLandau> You can find the latest version (both PDF and ODP) here:
<PaddyLandau> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=11869403#post11869403
<PaddyLandau> In the true spirit of things, Keith has created this with an open license.
<PaddyLandau> I believe that this should be part of the official 12.04 documentation, on the download page, to help newcomers to Unity.
<PaddyLandau> What is your opinion?
<dpm> hi PaddyLandau, I would recommend Keith or yourself to discuss it on the mailing list, as not all of the docs team members are currently online. You can reach them here:
<dpm> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Contact
<PaddyLandau> Thank you, dpm.
<dpm> no worries :)
<dpm> although I can anticipate some of the answers, I believe
<dpm> first of all, this is awesome work :)
<dpm> secondly, I believe it is too late in the cycle to include the poster in ubuntu-docs
<dpm> and finally, Ubuntu is used by a very diverse community of users, who might or might not speak English, so I'd recommend setting up the poster for translations and work with the Ubuntu translations community to provide the translations to users
<PaddyLandau> Sorry for the delay in replying, dpm. I was busy subscribing to the list you recommended. Keith doesn't have time to address translations, so is that something we "put out there" for people to do? Or should I discuss this on the mailing list?
<Guest17744> dpm: Greek & Turkish work fine without overrides at help.ubuntu.com/12.04/ubuntu-help
<jbicha_> oops, that was me ^
<jbicha_> and I think Apache gets confused with .pl files being Perl scripts (similar for .ms and .gl)
<dpm> hi jbicha_, sorry for the delay, I'm back
<dpm> jbicha_, yes, I'm aware of apache getting confused, that's why I starting adding the overrides in the apache config. The questions were rather why it was necessary to do file renames if the overrided in the config were already in place?
<dpm> oops, *started, not starting
<jbicha_> dpm: what about Galician / gl? that works with my renaming but not on your site
<jbicha_> you could trying adding that language code but in my testing that wasn't enough
<dpm> I haven't tried all languages, I only added those people told me weren't working, I can try to add Galician too
<jbicha_> Polish isn't a good choice because it's not really translated, I think some of the complaints you've had have been from languages that aren't translated
<dpm> I remembered Polish and Turkish because they had the problems when setting up the translations for the browser default page back in the day
<dpm> bbl, lunching now for real :)
<jbicha_> the next step is seeing if we can do the same with translations for the serverguide
<mhall119> bkerensa: do you know how much evaluation was done before we lost the sumo instance on canonistack?
 * cprofitt waves
<mhall119> welcome cprofitt
<bkerensa> mhall119: not at all I think what needs to happen is for possibly see about getting a new instance up in Q and setting up some analytics and pushing for better feedback from doc team so we can get this moving a little faster
<cprofitt> sorry did not realize your meeting was still going on
<bkerensa> mhall119: part of the issue is limited active contributors on the team
<mhall119> bkerensa: analytics?
<bkerensa> cprofitt: I didnt even know it was a meeting :P
<mhall119> cprofitt: no problem
<bkerensa> jbicha: so in Q I guess we want to have another look at Sumo and potentially get it implemented to replace help.u.c
<cprofitt> bodhi_zazen: ping -- sorry... moved discussion here
<bodhi_zazen> oic
<bkerensa> IRC should have a function like that /move topic #originalchan #newchan
<bkerensa> :P
<bodhi_zazen> mhall119: I've an off topic question for you later
<bkerensa> mhall119: disregard its still to early for my brain :) caffeine is in progress
<bodhi_zazen> forestpixie has been helping from forums, I just invited him here
<bkerensa> bodhi_zazen: Does the FC have a wiki with a todo list of all the stuff they are looking to transition?
<bodhi_zazen> yes
<bodhi_zazen> we are trying to keep it brief, let me look
<bodhi_zazen> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Wiki/Tasks/Forum/import
<cprofitt> bkerensa: if the wiki moves from moin moin there may be a need to change a script that I know was developed.
<bodhi_zazen> forestpixie has done much work, looking for his pages
<bkerensa> cprofitt: has that been under discussion? All I knew was mhall119 wanted help going to Sumo? I personally would love to see wiki running something other than moin moin its being the bain of my existence due to its limited markup
<cprofitt> perhaps I did not understand... what is Sumo?
<mhall119> bodhi_zazen: we're still evaluating alternatives right now, so don't let us block you guys
<mhall119> cprofitt: SUMO is a django app that runs support.mozilla.org
<cprofitt> mhall119: cool.
<mhall119> it's a knowledgebase app, translatable, reviewable, lots of nice to have features
<bodhi_zazen> mhall119: thanks
<cprofitt> I don't think either should block mhall119
<cprofitt> I think we just need to make sure if we do transition that the Forums guys get some notice so they can tweak their process
<cprofitt> and I have full faith you would keep them in the loop... you are awesome like that, bro!!
<mhall119> definitely, we'll likely have something to convert moin to mediawiki (used by sumo) anyway, so if their stuff is already moved it'll get brought in with everything else
<bkerensa> mhall119: it would be really amazing to not use moin for wiki though and to fix the ever present timeout issues that SSO presents :P
<bkerensa> Yes
<bkerensa> Mediawiki
<mhall119> bkerensa: SSO timeouts?
<bkerensa> mhall119: Uhh yeah :) have you never logged into wiki.ubuntu.com?
<mhall119> I try to avoid it ;)
<mhall119> seriously though, I didn't think the wiki problems were from SSO
<bkerensa> yeah well if you use it weekly it can zap a good three or four minutes a week just in SSO timing out or other errors
<bkerensa> mhall119: hmm well something is happening
<bkerensa> half of my logins fail
<mhall119> bkerensa: have you tried using the right password? :)
<bkerensa> mhall119: I have Premium Lastpass and a YubiKey :P
<mhall119> I have a yubikey, I should dig that out and activate it with SSO
 * forestpiskie catches up
<cprofitt> what is a yubikey?
<bkerensa> mhall119: Yubikey gave our LoCo a bunch and LastPass matched Yubikey by giving us a 2 Year Premium Sub for each key
<bkerensa> :D
<forestpiskie> bodhi_zazen: that wiki page - the forum import one was recently cleansed - it had 2006 stuff on it
<forestpiskie> also someone recently joined is getting together a list of forum threads we should be looking at
<mhall119> bkerensa: cool, SSO supports yubikey for 2-factor auth now, I got one in Budapest last year when we were adding that feature
<bkerensa> mhall119: but that has not rolled out to everyone has it? I thought the 2-auth is only internal for Canonical peeps
<mhall119> bkerensa: it might be, I haven't been keeping up
<mhall119> it's in django-openid-auth already though
<forestpiskie> mhall119: if we are looking at automating the conversion of threads to moin at the moment is there any point if the wiki is going to change? given that the tool would need to be re-done - or is the move to Sumo - one of those it might happen things?
<mhall119> forestpiskie: 1) we're still in the early-evaluation stage, we don't know if or when a change may happen and 2) if we do change we're going to need to import everything from moin anyway, so we'll get whatever you put there
<mhall119> so, don't block on us, because it may not happen, and even if it does it shouldn't mean any more work for you
<mhall119> and if it does cause more work for you, I'll be happy to help out with that
<forestpiskie> 1 - ok understand that, 2 - if the guy is working on the tool atm then if it changes the tool will need to - but all offers of help gratefully accepted lol - unfortunately I'm one of those people in the world that thinks code is voodoo
<forestpiskie> we won't block on anyone given the effort we've put in to get this far - a long road - one step at a time
<mhall119> forestpiskie: I'll be sure to keep the forums team in the loop with whatever we're doing, and work to minimize the impact it has on you
<forestpiskie> cool - thanks - if you can't get anyone else you can get me easy enough on the forum, often in #ubuntu-wiki as well
<bodhi_zazen> thanks forestpiskie
<forestpiskie> :)
<bodhi_zazen> mhall119: do you have time for a quick PM ?
<forestpiskie> mhall119: to be honest if anyone wants a contact for the forum's wiki team - then I'm good with that
<forestpiskie> maybe a mail to the doc team m/list would be the best way to do it
<bkerensa> mhall119: what project do we register a blueprint for uds-q?
<bkerensa> mhall119: I put together a blueprint and proposed a meeting to put plans together for transitioning help.ubuntu.com to the Sumo platform and migrating the content
<bkerensa> http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-q/meeting/20393/transitioning-helpubuntucom-to-sumo/
<mhall119> bodhi_zazen: PM anytime
<jbicha> bkerensa: I just used Other for the ubuntu-docs session last UDS, community might work too
#ubuntu-doc 2012-04-25
<carif> jbicha, Mike Carifio here
<jbicha> carif: hi!
<carif> jbicha, pleased to meet you, thanks for your pointers to the bash script, reading the email now
<jbicha> that script is new and so far I haven't gotten any submissions using it, but we didn't get really many submissions before the script either
<carif> jbicha, vg, does http://people.ubuntu.com/~jbicha/downloads.zip contain all I need to get started?
<jbicha> and the two scripts yes
<jbicha> I think my next iteration of the script will use wget to fetch the files & I can move the script to lp:~ubuntu-docs, maybe I'll do that next week
<carif> jbicha, maybe I got the wrong thing? Just unzipped downloads.zip, it contains Echoes In Time.mp3  EmblemDivide.pdf  richard-stallman-young.jpg  standard-tube-map.pdf
<jbicha> yes, those are the filler files I put in ~/.downloads
<carif> ah, got it, and download collect*.sh also?
<jbicha> yes and I put the scripts in that same folder too
<jbicha> you're using a new user account for the screenshots, right?
<carif> jbicha, got it, so it looks like I make a fresh install of precise, create a new account, set dir=~/.ubuntu-help/zh_CN/figures, set lang to be zh_CN, run ~/.ubuntu-help/collect-screenshots-without-mouse.sh and I'm done (?)
<carif> if the script just works, then ~/.ubuntu-help/zh_CN/figures is populated?
<jbicha> no, it requires a bit more setup, I clear the System Settings>Privacy history, install shutter, xdotool
<carif> jbicha, right, in the comments, after doing all that however, my previous sentence holds?
<jbicha> I have to delete the empty Ubuntu One folder in Nautilus to fit everything in the window
<jbicha> yes, pretty much
<carif> excellent
<jbicha> eog likes to show the sidebar anyway until I click to close it
<jbicha> I think a couple steps need a bit more of a pause between steps as it didn't work 100% of the time for me
<carif> ok, installing precise first in a vm (and thanks for your help)
<carif> jbicha, do I need to install the fluendo mp3 plugin during install?
<jbicha> yeah, next release I should probably use an ogg for that screenshot
<carif> jbicha, yt? running the script, runs to completion, nothing in 'figures' folder
<jbicha> what did you set dir= to?
<carif> $HOME/.ubuntu-help/zh_CN/figures
<carif> jbicha, also ran collect-screeshots-without-mouse.sh at command line
<jbicha> well the default is ".ubuntu-help/C/figures" so maybe try without the $HOME
<jbicha> I use Alt+F2 to run the script
<carif> jbicha, looking like I will punt on your script and try to do the images manually
<jbicha> oh really? does it give errors when you run from the command line?
<carif> jbicha, I notice that the existing ubuntu-docs/C/figures/*.png has low resolution, does that matter? Do I need to preserve the resolution?
<carif> jbicha, no errors, but odd results
<carif> jbicha, need to reboot, be back
<jbicha> it needs a bit of tweaking to get it right, the script worked for me (like most programmers said) but I didn't test from a clean environment (my bad)
<carif> jbicha, no problems,
<carif> i'm going to send you a list of png files from C/images which have english text in the them, you can tell me where they come from? like nautilus, etc?
<carif> i'll run the command, run shutter, write out the png
<carif> and populate ubuntu-docs/ubuntu-help/zh_CN/images
<carif> does that make sense?
<jbicha> um, I think so
<jbicha> the low resolution is intentional so that the images don't overpower the text, and of course CD space is limited
<carif> jbicha, i made a few modest changes to collect-screenshots-without-mouse.sh, http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/946365
<carif> jbicha, I run it with set -x on, http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/946363/
<carif> jbicha, do any of the error messages ring a bell?
<jbicha> carif: does it not work at all then? those errors don't sound critical to me
<carif> jbicha, doesn't seem to, I get four .png files in ~/.ubuntu-help/zh_CN/figures
<carif> nautilus.png
<carif> unity-dash.png
<carif> unity-dash-sample.png
<carif> unity-overview.png
<carif> nautilus.png seems right
<jbicha> that's how many you are supposed to get
<MrChrisDruif> Ah, this is about that screenshot item on the mailing-list?
<jbicha> yes
<carif> excellent!
<carif> so it looks like the four .png files are right
<carif> does the other shell script collect-screenshots-with-mouse.sh generate the rest of the png files?
<jbicha> yes
<carif> jbicha, vg, does the order of running the scripts matter?
<carif> jbicha, yes, you have a comment in -with-mouse.sh
<jbicha> no, except that I like to clear the Privacy before running the without-mouse one
<carif> jbicha, what does that mean? "clear the Privacy"?
<jbicha> well, that's more because there are more setup instructions in the first one & I assumed that moving the mouse pointer around the screen would have been more complicated
<jbicha> System Settings>Privacy, change the dropdown to all and click Delete history
<jbicha> there may be one more screenshot you'd want, it's the screenshot you see when you first open https://help.ubuntu.com/12.04/ubuntu-help/
<jbicha> it's unity.png and is in the without-mouse script but in the English-only section
<carif> if [ $dir -eq ".ubuntu-help/C/figures" ] # English only
<carif>   then
<carif>     shutter -f -e -o dir/unity.png
<carif>     convert $dir/unity.png -crop 65x180+0+25 +repage $dir/unity-launcher.png
<carif>     convert $dir/unity-launcher.png -crop 65x123+0+57 +repage $dir/unity-launcher-apps.png
<carif>     convert $dir/unity.png -resize 250x188 $dir/unity.png
<carif> fi
<jbicha> oh, never mind, it's not legible, I guess the one I was thinking about unity-dash-intro.png which it looks like I left out of my script
<jbicha> I can just crop and resize unity-overview.png to make that one so you don't need to worry about that one either
 * jbicha logs out for 15 minutes
<pleia2> btw, if anyone wants an announcement up on fridge.ubuntu.com about spiffy new help.ubuntu.com feel free to send an announcement to ubuntu-news-team@lists.ubuntu.com and I'll get you sorted
<pleia2> (it's very spiffy, well done :))
#ubuntu-doc 2012-04-26
<bkerensa> jbicha: so I guess in Q were going to be moving help.u.c to the sumo platform
<jbicha> bkerensa: you mean https://help.ubuntu.com/community right? I like the rest of h.u.c
<bkerensa> jbicha: My understanding from mhall119 is that the whole space would be preferable but I will check on that.... I have a blueprint open for discussion and planning its a very large scale project either way due to testing and also migrating content
<bkerensa> ideally it might be smarter to just do the community space and then transition the rest?
<jbicha> you seriously aren't talking about killing the Ubuntu Desktop Guide and Server Guide, are you?
<mhall119> jbicha: the idea is that we would take over all of help.u.c, migrating all the current content to the new system
<mhall119> so nothing will be killed
<mhall119> it'll just be on a new system that allows for translations and approvals
<jbicha> ok, but what about an offline copy of the Desktop & Server Guides?
<mhall119> how do you get an offline copy now?
<jbicha> oh, I meant an online copy
<mhall119> where's the online copy now, in moin?
<jbicha> https://help.ubuntu.com/12.04/serverguide/ and https://help.ubuntu.com/12.04/ubuntu-help/
<mhall119> that's...interesting
<jbicha> see also https://help.ubuntu.com/
<mhall119> when did help.u.c get a new theme?
<mhall119> is that still moin?
<bkerensa> mhall119: just today or very recently
<jbicha> today :)
<bkerensa> :D
<mhall119> oh, ok, thought I was totally confused
<bkerensa> I saw it in preferences or something but it just rolled out live
<mhall119> so yeah, anything in moin will be in SUMO,
<bkerensa> :D
<jbicha> no, it's not moin, the Desktop Guide is generated html from mallard, the Server Guide is html generated from docbook
<mhall119> jbicha: using apache aliases or something?
<bkerensa> mhall119: we wanted that in Sumo too right?
<mhall119> bkerensa: I would think so, yes
<bkerensa> to simplify things
<bkerensa> make the experience more consistent and easier to maintain over time
<jbicha> I think that's a bad idea, I want an online copy somewhere of the Desktop & Server Guides
<mhall119> jbicha: why would it be bad to have an online copy on SUMO?
<jbicha> the Desktop Guide is 80ish% maintained by GNOME anyway
<mhall119> where?
<jbicha> http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-help/stable/
<jbicha> http://git.gnome.org/browse/gnome-user-docs
<mhall119> is that all static html, or do they have a webapp behind it?
<jbicha> I don't fully understand SUMO but I think it would be a great replacement for help.ubuntu.com/community, but I want to keep the current look of the Desktop & Server Guides
<jbicha> it's static
<mhall119> jbicha: ok, we were planning on replacing moin, so any part of help.u.c that isn't moin we can keep the way it is
<jbicha> I'm happy with that! :)
<bkerensa> jbicha: Can I PM you before I head off to dinner?
<jbicha> bkerensa: how about after dinner? I'm busy this hour
<bkerensa> jbicha: sounds good
#ubuntu-doc 2012-04-27
<bobweaver> hello any one know how to put a link in a picture with moin moin ?
<bobweaver> example
<bobweaver> {{https://launchpad.net/@@/launchpad-logo-and-name.png||https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-learning}}
<bobweaver> NM I got it
<bobweaver> [[link | {{image link}}]]
#ubuntu-doc 2012-04-28
<l3on> Hi all!... is there someone here knowing how to configure moinmoin with ubuntu sso ?
#ubuntu-doc 2012-04-29
<MrChrisDruif> Anyone else from the doc team awake?
#ubuntu-doc 2013-04-23
<CarstenG> Hi at all.
<CarstenG> I just got an update of the Ubuntu Desktop Guide to my raring installation.
<CarstenG> And I see, that there are some screenshots on the main page are still not updated to the raring layout.
<CarstenG> E.g. if I hoover over the main captions Â»What's new in Ubuntu 13.04?Â«, Â»Use the Launcher to start applicationsÂ« and Â»Find apps, files, music, and mor with the DashÂ«, I see old screenshots.
<CarstenG> Is there a possibility to update these images before release?
<CarstenG> Or is it now to late?
<bkerensa> CarstenG: Its too late plus the screenshoot tool is not working very well
<CarstenG> bkerensa: Thanks for your answer. ok, it's to late, but will the screenshots update during normal updates during the life of raring?
<bkerensa> CarstenG: I defer to jbicha
<bkerensa> :P
<bkerensa> I do not know how to use the script but if its not working then idk
<jbicha> I defer to bkerensa ;)
<CarstenG> And what do you mean with Â»screenshot toolÂ«? Is there a special program for the docs?
<jbicha> it's possible to do an update after raring is released but it requires coordinating the schedule with dpm & the translators
<bkerensa> Well I defer to pleia2 since her team owns doc committers now ;)
<bkerensa> ;p
 * bkerensa runs and hides
<pleia2> that's only as a temporary measure to make sure we don't lose control of the team entirely, we're not actually qualified to make major decisions on behalf of the team ;)
<pleia2> CarstenG: yes, there is a specific tool that makes taking them easier
<pleia2> (I don't remember it offhand)
<CarstenG> pleia2: Sounds good. In the manual team we also have to to lots of screenshot, so maybe we can use this for our purposes, too?
<pleia2> it may actually be the same one, bkerensa?
<jbicha> it's a script called collect-screenshots.sh in the root of lp:ubuntu-docs
<pleia2> ah, thanks jbicha
<jbicha> it's different that what the manual team used
<CarstenG> thanks Jeremy. I will have a look to it.
<jbicha> it didn't work quite right for quantal and it's like that the placement of the screenshots is off by a bit as developers tweak the UI
<jbicha> *it's likely*
<CarstenG> Jeremy, do you mean Quickshot, which the manual team used in the past?
<jbicha> quickshot didn't seem to work right for what I needed but I don't remember why
<CarstenG> Well, this is not working any more. There is no developer... Now we are doing the screenshots by hand...
<jbicha> I guess that's what the problem was
<CarstenG> Thanks for your help. See you later, good night.
#ubuntu-doc 2013-04-24
<bkerensa> godbyk: would you like to prepare the Doc Contributor list for raring/
<bkerensa> Riddell: do you have a list of contributors for Kubuntu Docs?
<godbyk> bkerensa: Do you want a list of people who have contributed to the raring cycle only?  If so, I think it's only about three people: you, me, and jbicha.
<bkerensa> godbyk: yeah that would be it I guess unless I missed something
<bkerensa> I think Doug did some work too
<bkerensa> I will ping the sub doc teams and get them to add their people
<godbyk> bkerensa: I'll check the commit lots and mailing list. But I think it'll be a short list for raring.
<bkerensa> kk
<Riddell> bkerensa: none, they got deleted
#ubuntu-doc 2013-04-26
<hanzhaq> hi, where can I find the change log for "ubuntu server guide"?
#ubuntu-doc 2013-04-27
<Guest67425> Hi, excuse me I need some information about adding a paragraph to a guide in the wiki
<MarcoDallas> I would add that software: https://github.com/marcoDallas/acpi_call_GUI to this guide : https://help.ubuntu.com/community/HybridGraphics . Please can someone tell me what should I do? Thank you!
<Atamira> MarcoDallas, ask your question on the mailing list. you would get an answer quicker than in here
<MarcoDallas> Thank you Atamira, i would ask on the mailing list! bye :)
#ubuntu-doc 2014-04-22
<belkinsa> slickymaster, are you able to go the next Doc Team's meeting? http://doodle.com/8ag48wpq3xrs3bi9
<pleia2> doing the Ubuntu Open Week session on docs in 3 minutes over in #ubuntu-classroom and #ubuntu-classroom-chat if anyone wants to come along :)
 * knome joins
<pleia2> thanks knome
<pleia2> that went well :)
<knome> yep
<captine> Thanks a mil.  I am so glad I saw these events taking place.  Reading the information on the website is good, but getting it in this fashion is even better for the lazy like me
<belkinsa> Question: It safe to edit this page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/MeetingAgenda for the next meeting?
<knome> belkinsa, yes
<belkinsa> Thanks, knome.  I'm getting everything ready for the next one.
<knome> did you decide on the day already?
<belkinsa> I have.
<belkinsa> I will announce it when I get the agenda ready.
<knome> sure
<belkinsa> But if you want to know early, it's May 7 @ whatever 2 PM EST is in UTC is.
<knome> my back feels like there is an old hard disk drive reading stuff there
<belkinsa> 7 PM London time, so 8 UTC?
<belkinsa> 6 PM* UTC
<knome> 18utc.
<belkinsa> Thank you.
<knome> wait...
<knome> EST or EDT now?
<belkinsa> Are you having a hard time logging back into SSO for Ubuntu?
<belkinsa> EDT
<knome> oh wait, that site calculates that to me
<belkinsa> http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/converted.html?iso=20140507T14&p1=2509&p2=0
<knome> it's sometimes slow
<knome> but i haven't used any services for hours now
<knome> my back still vibrates in a HDD crunchy way.
<belkinsa> Does anyone know if petermatulis comes around here?
<belkinsa> knome, e-mail set.
<belkinsa> sent*
<knome> noticed ;)
<knome> i have 11 emails in all folders combined.
<knome> that means more than 10% of the mail i have is from you
<belkinsa> I think I have 11 too all from Ubuntu related projects
<knome> i mean 11 *emails*, not email addresses ;)
<belkinsa> I do too
<knome> right
<belkinsa> And I did know what you mean
<knome> i usually get more than that daily...
<belkinsa> Okay, I have 12.
<knome> but i just did some cleanup
<knome> belkinsa, fixed the page a bit (lists mostly)
<knome> and "sever" -> "server"
<knome> "oops" ;)
<belkinsa> Yeah, I corrected that but it seems that it didn't save
<belkinsa> You think this system will work?
<pleia2> knome is an email deleter
<knome> yes... even more so when i don't have to be responsible of stuff now ;)
 * pleia2 frets
<knome> s/when/as/
<knome> my wife probably wouldn't be surprised
<knome> she says i'm the mr. "throw it away if you don't need it"
<pleia2> I have the opposite husband
<knome> awwh
<belkinsa> Packrat = know?
<belkinsa> knome*
<pleia2> his favorite phrase is "it could be useful" - so much now that every time he says it now we laugh
<pleia2> knome: is anti-packrat
<belkinsa> Oh, right, sorry.
 * belkinsa is the same
<knome> hehe, yeah...
<knome> i don't want to live ascetic... but i do think modern age people have too many things they don't need.
<pleia2> I lived a pretty gypsy experience in my 20s, so I got good at letting go, but I still like stuff
<belkinsa> oh, is there any important things that I missed from the Ubuntu Doc Classroom session?
<knome> like, what do we do with all of these 20 knives
<pleia2> belkinsa: someone came up with your same idea for a week long wiki jam, so I think we should do it this cycle :)
<knome> and do you *really* need the 15th set of pillow covers
<belkinsa> Sure, I heard my name called but I didn't read who asked that.
<knome> like, not the pillows you sleep with... the decoration ones!
<pleia2> my husband's new strategy is "ok fine, we'll donate it to charity, but I need to do it so I can get a receipt" "why haven't you taken it in?" "we already hit our charitable donations quota for the year"
<knome> lol
<knome> in april...
<knome> my parent-in-laws are working as volunteers on a flea market... guess if they get a lot of stuff from us
<pleia2> it's my fault, not from giving away stuff, I give away money to any cute animal who shows me those cute eyes
 * knome twirls to the floor, oinks and flaps eyes
<pleia2> lol
<belkinsa> lol
<knome> anyway, back to the original discussion...
<knome> i like proper, quality furniture though
#ubuntu-doc 2014-04-23
<slickymaster> belkinsa: Unless something out of the ordinary cames up, I'm almost sure that I'll be able to make the meeting
<belkinsa> slickymaster, thanks.
#ubuntu-doc 2014-04-25
<bkerensa> godbyk: yo
<godbyk> Hey, bkerensa.
#ubuntu-doc 2014-04-27
<skierpage> Hi. I'm installing Ubuntu 14.04. http://www.ubuntu.com/download/desktop/install-ubuntu-desktop says "You should see a welcome screen prompting you to choose your language and giving you the option to install Ubuntu or try it from the DVD.
<skierpage> instead I got a text (Grub?) menu offering a choice between installing or trying the live USB.  That web page could usefully say that you can install from both.
<skierpage> maybe the text menu is because I was EFI booting from reFind on a MacBook, it didn't look like the attractive graphic choice.
<skierpage> That web page could usefully have a link to http://www.ubuntu.com/download/desktop/try-ubuntu-before-you-install "If you want to try Ubuntu before installing"
#ubuntu-doc 2015-04-24
<pleia2> btw, sent another followup regarding the convoluted process new contributors need to go through to log into the help.u.c./community wiki, last update was in february where balloons said it would be made a priority but that "is not a quick fix."
 * balloons just looked at that RT again
<balloons> recently to remind myself
<knome> and any other community service.
<pleia2> we appreciate that
<pleia2> yeah, loco.ubuntu.com suffers from this too
<balloons> well I wish I could actually fix it for you..
 * balloons ducks back out
<pleia2> I have to tell people to contact me directly to RSVP to events if they can't log in to RSVP to the site, that's typically about half the attendees
<pmatulis> pleia2: i'm not up-to-date on this problem.  is it documented somewhere?
<pleia2> pmatulis: pretty much the fact that we have to have this page: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiGuide/Registration
<pleia2> pmatulis: very few users find it, or have the patience to go through it, so they just give up and leave without contributing
<pleia2> some end up coming in here to ask, and it usually takes 20-30 minutes of debugging to finally get them logged in
<pleia2> it all came about because IS merged Launchpad SSO with Ubuntu SSO without understanding the implications for our services
<pmatulis> interesting
<pleia2> it's been over a year since I submitted the ticket
<pmatulis> it's the first time i hear of it but i do recall seeing some posts on ubuntu-doc about it
 * pleia2 nods
<pmatulis> pleia2: so no bug to track then, that's unfortunate
<pleia2> pmatulis: the RT ticket is 24297
<pleia2> I can dig up the doc team bug report, but IS only pays attention to tickets so there isn't any info there
<pmatulis> pleia2: i cannot access that RT.  maybe i'm not looking in the right place
<knome> pmatulis, rt.ubuntu.com
<pleia2> pmatulis: you should be able to log in with your Ubuntu SSO at rt.ubuntu.com
<pleia2> from there, go to https://rt.ubuntu.com/Ticket/Display.html?id=24297
<pmatulis> got it
#ubuntu-doc 2016-04-28
<aram_> Hello Ubuntu Team
<aram_> I work for a state university in Mexico (Universidad Autonoma de Chihuahua).
<aram_> We're currently renewing some of the classroom desktops, so far we have 150 Ubuntu desktops for students and teachers, we're proud to start using Ubuntu in the university and would love to be be added to the UbuntuSchools list (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Education/UbuntuSchools)
<aram_> does anyone know who can help me with that?
<tsimonq2> aram_: you should join #ubuntu-locoteams :)
#ubuntu-doc 2016-04-29
<cpaelzer> hi, I just god a few more changes merged into the serverguide - thanks for the review
<cpaelzer> I wondered thou, now after 16.04 release
<cpaelzer> on what frequency will updates we make to the repo be published to e.g. https://help.ubuntu.com/16.04/serverguide/...
<cpaelzer> I might have more follow up questions, but it depends so much on the answers to the main question "if and how often updates get there" that I wait before spamming the chan
<cpaelzer> there was nothing around https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam that would have answered my quesiton, but I realized I might be in the worng TZ for IRC
<cpaelzer> so I sent a mail to the ubunut-doc list now
#ubuntu-doc 2017-04-25
<tgage> hello
<tgage> How may I report or edit an error on https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SecuringOpenLDAPConnections?  The installation instruction for the LDAP server via apt-get is incorrect
#ubuntu-doc 2018-04-28
<sanjay> I have found grammatical mistake in one of the ubuntu doc, how can I correct it and be member of contributors team ?
