#ubuntu-doc 2004-11-22
* hornbeck 's back
<hornbeck> ChrisH you around?
<sivang> anyway people, I'm off to bed
<sivang> been a wreck of a day on the code front..mostly perlish
<hornbeck> anyone around?
<WW> Anyone here?
<WW> Well, someone will eventually read the logs, so I'll just talk to myself for a bit.
<WW> Take a look at WikiSandBox.  I think there may be a bug in how ReST processes literal blocks.
* WW makes one last wave to the log readers, and quits.
<hornbeck> anyone around tonight?
<plovs_> good morning
<hornbeck> hey
<plovs_> hi!
<hornbeck> man the server is running great :-)
<plovs_> ok!
<hornbeck> I still have no svn working
<plovs_> so what are u running? apache?
<hornbeck> but I have my blog up, and have the book hosted, and a few other things
<hornbeck> apache
<hornbeck> svn needs apache2 though
<hornbeck> I tried to get it to work but threw all kinds of errors at me
<plovs_> really?
<plovs_> you can run both at the same time or not?
<hornbeck> I hear you can, but I don't know how
<hornbeck> I would not mind moving to apache2 but I would have to know how to reset everything
<hornbeck> all docs are for regular apache
<plovs_> ah well, in time
<hornbeck> yeah
<hornbeck> mono moved to svn today
<plovs_> i had very troubles with it...
<plovs_> btw have you seen ChrisH svn?
<hornbeck> no?
<plovs_> runs nicely, we have the faq in it, runs great in yelp
<hornbeck> good deal
<plovs_> i put the old faq in it, now we have to clean it up
<plovs_> http://torf.workaround.org:8080/faq/
<hornbeck> so you are going to the conference
<plovs_> faq.xml -> yelp faq.xml 
<plovs_> probably yes
<hornbeck> thats cool
<plovs_> some last details, but i hope to go
<hornbeck> lulu emailed me saying they could pay for me to go
<plovs_> still need a laptop
<plovs_> hornbeck, cool!
<plovs_> and?
<hornbeck> but it takes 6-8 weeks for me to get a passport :-(
<hornbeck> so those dreams died fast
<plovs_> hornbeck, aarhh, so long?
<hornbeck> yeah
<plovs_> here we all have one, the countries are so small
<plovs_> you  cross borders 20 times a day
<hornbeck> yeah, I never travel so I never got one
<hornbeck> so I am going to get one that way I have it
<plovs_> in the states you can travel a lot without ever leaving the states
<hornbeck> also I would be gone all of December if I went
<plovs_> holland is < 2 hours wide
<plovs_> :-)
<hornbeck> nice
<hornbeck> I bet it is alot nicer there though
<hornbeck> the USA sucks
<hornbeck> to many people, to much polution, to much hate
<plovs_> depends, some places here suck as well, if not harder
<plovs_> but the hate, you've got a lot yeah
<hornbeck> people here are just stupid :-)
<plovs_> an polution, get used to it, 4 more yers of bushisms ahead
<hornbeck> yeah
<plovs_> :-(
<hornbeck> I did not like Kerry either though
<hornbeck> he was nothing but a liar just like the rest of them
<plovs_> choice between two evils
<hornbeck> I choose neither
<hornbeck> voted "none of the above"
<plovs_> i liked *that* movie
<hornbeck> brusters millions
<plovs_> :-) bing!
<hornbeck> haha
<hornbeck> Richard Pryor was amazing
<plovs_> back in the days
<hornbeck> well he can't really even talk anymore
<plovs_> he might rattle
<hornbeck> haha
<hornbeck> have you ever seen stir crazy?
<hornbeck> that is funny
<plovs_> ok, got to run to work, i'll be back onine in 3 hours
<plovs_> no, not yet, must see
<hornbeck> ok I will be in bed then
<plovs_> ok, good night!
<hornbeck> bye
<plovs_> sleep tight!
<plovs_> bye!
<hornbeck> hmm, yelp in hoary will not open these docbook files
<hornbeck> hey
<hornbeck> I have to go in a sec
<hornbeck> its almost 1am here
<hornbeck> you can create pages that are translations and add the word Russian to the beginning of the title
<hornbeck> we need that pretty bad if you are interested
<hornbeck> but I have to run, thanks for helping if you decide to 
<skyrider> ok. I'll try
* sid77 ciao
<ChrisH> Moin...
<plovs_work> hi guys
* ChrisH has just set up a mirror server :)  => 6 MB/sec!
<sid77> woah
<ChrisH> Could you try? http://ubuntu-mirror.workaround.org
<plovs_work> ChrisH, ok!
<plovs_work> ChrisH, yep, works ok
<plovs_work> ChrisH, can you take a look at the faq? is my indention etc ok?
<ChrisH> plovs_work: did you reiterate my comments from yesterday?
<plovs_work> i *think* i did, take a look and comment
<plovs_work> ChrisH, blast, i forgot my password at home, can you change it
<ChrisH> plovs_work: sure
<plovs_work> ChrisH i started at the end
<plovs_work> btw i spoke with mdz, he said if we want to we can create an additional package for yelp in yelp, eg the faq etc, then offer it, it will get in
<ChrisH> Good.
<plovs_work> checkout: /usr/share/gnome/help/zenity/C/zenity.xml it has more tags then we use eg to be used together with <screen>
<ChrisH> Hmmm... yes.
<ChrisH> Mornin', lulu... :)
<lulu> ChrisH: Good morning :o)
<lulu> and all!
<ChrisH> plovs_work: I'm reviewing the faq now... all changed checked in?
<ChrisH> Hmm. We should decide whether we use the english (s) or american (z) spelling of words. I tend to use 's'. :)
<lulu> ChrisH: we decided on British English for Ubuntu :o)
<plovs_work> ChrisH, formatting ok?
<plovs_work> ChrisH, <imagedata fileref="figures/zenity-calendar-screenshot.png" format="PNG" we could use this to add an ubuntu logo
<ChrisH> lulu: yes, sir! :)
<lulu> ChrisH:  ;) 
<ChrisH> plovs_work: Sure. Icons, graphics... whatever. In the future we will probably have an installation CD and an FAQ CD (codename "plovs").
<ChrisH> plovs_work: I'm fixing a few minor things. "CONFIGURATION" was all in caps. Some empty <para></para> sections. Nothing big.
<ChrisH> plovs_work: We need to keep in mind that either we use <screen>...</screen> or if it spans multiple lines the verbatim block must begin in column 1 (even if it looks ugly in the XML).
<plovs_work> ChrisH, yess it did look ugly
<plovs_work>  installation CD and an FAQ CD (codename "plovs"), sounds nice
<ChrisH> Perhaps we can even add high-res video. :)
<plovs_work> actually yesterday i saw how to make video demos's ...
<plovs_work> and i was wondering ...
<plovs_work> since i agreed with you last time ...
<ChrisH> Changes checked in...
<plovs_work> ChrisH, ok, what about: <programlisting> ?
<plovs_work> ChrisH, is used in zenity calendar for longer listings, might be better for eg XFREE-stuff ?
<ChrisH> plovs_work: programlisting is visually the same thing as <screen>
<plovs_work> ChrisH, but in docbook it lines up correctly afaik (see zenity.xml) I have no preference just telling what i read
<plovs_work> ok, off to eat, be back in 30 minutes
<sid77Away> a question: how are the pages organized under the wiki?
<sid77Away> I've to submit italian translations: I made new ones under / or can I move under a "subfolder" (if this concept exists)
<ChrisH> sid77Away: No, Wikis arrange all pages on the same leve.
<ChrisH> sid77Away: We definitely need to figure out how translations are handled.
<sid77Away> ok, thanks, noticed reading german translations
<ChrisH> sid77Away: I wonder if the wiki has the possibility to say "this part is for browsers that are set to 'italian'"
<sid77Away> is there a policy for naming?
<sid77Away> I'm going to create something following the german style
<sid77Away> like: ItalianDocumentationInstallationHowTo-x86
<sid77Away> well
<sid77Away> how awful 8/
<sid77Away> InstallationHowTo-x86-it sounds nicer ;)
<ChrisH> lulu: Do you know how we can mark parts of the wiki as being of a certain language?
<ChrisH> sid77Away: You should probably call it anything and just link it to https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/ItalianDocumentation
<sid77Away> yes, sure that was my plan
<lulu> ChrisH: nope :o( but why don't u ping simon michael, Zwiki guru! and I'm sure he can help.
<ChrisH> lulu: k
* ChrisH is out for lunch
<sivang> Morning all / or should I say good afternoon?
<sivang> :)
<ChrisH> sivang: Say what you want. My brain says "night". :)
<sivang> ChrisH : haha :)
<plovs_work> ok, back for a sec
<plovs_work> ChrisH, yelp complains: Use of deprecated SAXv1 function endElement
<plovs_work> sivang, hi
<sid77Away> first set of italian howto are up, going to lunch, bye!
<plovs_work> sid77Away, well done!
<ChrisH> plovs_work: I see that warning, too. No idea what that means.
<sivang> hey plovs_work
<sivang> whas'up all?
<ChrisH> plovs_work: The FAQ looks good so far. What's next... would you include the other Wiki FAQ page? I would later (when I'm at home) "invent" some more general FAQs that I wrote down when I started with Ubuntu.
<sivang> ah , website is speedy, wiki is
<sivang> wonderful
<sivang> !
<ChrisH> plovs_work: I'm thinking about: https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/FrequentlyAskedQuestions
<hornbeck> good morning
<sivang> moring hornbeck,
<sivang> how was your night? :)
<ChrisH> hornbeck: Hey...
<ChrisH> hornbeck: Any news on your server/network trouble?
<hornbeck> my night was full of exciting sleep
<hornbeck> the server should be working fine
<hornbeck> svn did not work from your instructions though
<hornbeck> I now have ftp access set up to
<ChrisH> hornbeck: What went wrong?
<hornbeck> when I would try to connect it would have internel server errros
<hornbeck> errors
<ChrisH> hornbeck: Shall we fix that now?
<hornbeck> sure, I have about a half hour
<hornbeck> is that enough time?
<ChrisH> hornbeck: Let's try.
<hornbeck> ok
<hornbeck> I am running apache 1 right now
<ChrisH> Why not 2?
<hornbeck> because typeing sudo apt-get apache gave me one :-)
<hornbeck> also I could not find much docs for two
<ChrisH> I suggest installing "apache2". The svn/dav implementation is much easier there.
<hornbeck> ok
<ChrisH> I have started with apache2 a few day ago. It's really not that hard.
<hornbeck> so do I need to uninstall apache1?
<ChrisH> You better do.
<hornbeck> ok, svn and apache2 are now installed
<ChrisH> Okay... now let's try from my quick wiki page.
<hornbeck> I am at the page
<hornbeck> now the /home/svn/faq do I need to mkdir that before anything else?
<ChrisH> Not necessary.
<ChrisH> svnadmin...
<ChrisH> hornbeck: Like a hand? (ssh access?) I could help setting up the apache.
<hornbeck> I don't know if my ssh is working
<hornbeck> you can try
<hornbeck> ssh 69.155.172.150
<hornbeck> you remember your login?
<plovs_work> hornbeck, good morning!
<hornbeck> good morning
<sivang> hornbeck : not working, the ssh that is
<lulu> hornbeck: morning :o)
<hornbeck> morning lulu
<sivang> hornbeck : but I do get your ping.
<hornbeck> yeah I know ssh is not working sivang :-)
<plovs_work> ChrisH, i can work on the rest of the faq  tonight
<plovs_work> ChrisH, https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/FrequentlyAskedQuestions that is
<ChrisH> plovs_work: Cool. I could imagine that we publish the first version on the Wiki somewhere (lulu is actually finding a place for us).
<plovs_work> ChrisH, nice, so i'll incorperate the rest tonight, and then some more cleaning up
<ChrisH> plovs_work: Good work, Sir.
<plovs_work> ChrisH, i would like to use this opportunity to congratulte you as well
<lulu> me too! :o)
<ChrisH> plovs_work: Why's that? :)
<plovs_work> ChrisH, it's a healty 8 pound faq!
<ChrisH> plovs_work: Oh, no, not another baby.
<plovs_work> ChrisH, what do you think, the wiki-faq has many links to wiki-pages, remove the entry or incorporate the info, i prefer the latter, just the faq will become quite big
<ChrisH> I second that. Don't worry about size. The yelp version will be included as a zipped package. And the XHTML page can be automatically split into multiple pages.
<plovs_work> ChrisH will we add to further reading? messy, but convenient, hmm
<ChrisH> huh?
<plovs_work> ChrisH, "click this link to go the wiki, to learn how to use nano..."
<ChrisH> I'd like to try to get everything useful into the XML file itself without too many external links.
<plovs_work> ChrisH, might be more convenient yes
* sid77 re
* sid77 re
<sivang> hi enrico!
<enrico> Finally configured irssi to join here by default!
<enrico> Hello all!
<sivang> haha
<sid77> lol
<sivang> were you always been using irssi?
<enrico> I was using BitchX and I was too lazy to do anything advanced with it; then someone told me irssi is better
<enrico> So now I use irssi, and I'm too lazy to do anything advanced with it
<enrico> But irssi's defaults are better :)
<enrico> I want a preferences dialog :)
<sivang> haha
<sivang> you console devil...asking for dialogs..
<enrico> When I have the time to learn a new language, I prefer python or german instead of IRC commands
* enrico is not 31337 enough
<sivang> 31337 ?
<sid77> ahahahahahahahahaha
<enrico> sivang: elite, but written in an elite way
<sivang> oh..
<sivang> :)
<sivang> everybody on ubuntu are elite, right? and even those who just joined us :)
<enrico> BTW, for computer jargon I suggest installing most of the dict-* packages
<sivang> noted.
<enrico> then you just "dict elite" or "dict heisenbug" or "dict tla" and so on
<enrico> Once you get the habit of using dict, you become omniscent and everyone respects you ;)
<ChrisH> enrico: Hi, boss. :)
<ChrisH> enrico: Actually you can configure irssi until it looks good enough and then run /saveconf
<enrico> ChrisH: Hi!  But I'm a servant, not a boss!
<enrico> ChrisH: ah, ok.  What I have problem is remembering the sequence of commands to add channels that keep being around when I restart irssi, and also to remove such channel and reorder them
<enrico> ChrisH: my problem is that if you tell me now, then I forget next time
<ChrisH> enrico: "enrico" who? :)
* enrico needs a cheat sheet
<enrico> ChrisH: I'm Enrico Zini
* sivang is the boss :)))
<ChrisH> enrico: I figured that. Are you from GER, too?
<enrico> ChrisH: GER?
<sivang> ChrisH : hint - he can teach you how to make good pasta
<sivang> :)
<enrico> ChrisH: ah, Germany.  No, I'm Italian
<sid77> lol
<ChrisH> enrico: If you want to learn German: I can speak it quite well. I'm just a lousy teacher. But I'm teaching it to my son currently so if you like to join... :)
<sivang> ChrisH : you already have one student for the conference..:)
<enrico> ChrisH: ja!  Das would be gut
<ChrisH> enrico: Na, fein. :)
* enrico dicts fein
<enrico> Found!  Dict is great!
<enrico> ChrisH: Das would be fein!
<ChrisH> enrico: Regarding irssi... in your ~/.irssi/config you probably have a channels = () section. Add an entry like: { name = "#ubuntu-doc"; chatnet = "freenode"; autojoin = "yes"; },
<enrico> ChrisH: so you don't do it with IRC commands either.  I edited the config file as well
<ChrisH> enrico: I don't think that autojoin can be configured while being online.
<ChrisH> enrico: It's like a .bashrc, .zshrc or .vimrc... you take a whole day to customise it and never care about it again.
<enrico> ChrisH: I think "/channel add -auto ircnet channelname" would do for adding.  I don't know about moving and removing
<ChrisH> enrico: Ah.
<ChrisH> enrico: Oh, well, the documentation on irssi is really bad.
* sid77 re
<enrico> I'm catching up on open issues after brasil: has everything been sorted out wrt #ubuntu-doc channel ownership?
<ChrisH> enrico: Not publicly yet. During the #ubuntu-meeting I openend up the channel and had the Chanserv register it. Is there an issue?
<enrico> ChrisH: no, not really: I just wanted to check if everything is right or if there is something else to do.  Someone raised the issue of channel ownership during the meeting
<enrico> <honest>I actually don't know precisely what channel ownership means</honest>
<enrico> However, it's my role of getting things sorted out, so I was checking if there was something left to do
<ChrisH> enrico: If you enter a channel which not exists yet, the channel will be created and you become the operator.
<enrico> I also see 'ubuntulog' hanging around
<ChrisH> enrico: As you probably want to sleep sometimes you don't want to loose the op.
<enrico> ChrisH: ah, so "channel ownership" means the registering with chanserv thing
<ChrisH> enrico: So you can register yourself with Nickserv and the channel with Chanserv and thus get the op permissions back.
<enrico> ChrisH: cool. But how come Chanserv is not on che channel at the moment?
<ChrisH> enrico: Chanserv is a special user (bot) from the freenode.net system. It does not need to be in a channel.
<ChrisH> enrico: "/msg Chanserv help" if you are curious
<ChrisH> enrico: Currently sivang and I have signed up as operators. But we tend to stay on "normal" permissions unless there is really something bad going on (kiddies flooding the channel with useless junk just for the fun of it).
<enrico> Sure
<enrico> Cool, then, everything is sorted out.  Thanks, guys!
<hornbeck> anyone still around?
<lulu> yup! howzit going?
<hornbeck> hey
<hornbeck> have you ever used arch before?
<hornbeck> do you know how to pull a archive?
<hornbeck> well I am off to work again
<ChrisH> Ah... pizza has arrived. :)
<hornbeck> hey
<ChrisH> hornbeck: Nah, haven't used arch before.
<hornbeck> ChrisH I get webdav errors from my server
<hornbeck> what could cause that
<ChrisH> hornbeck: Let's see...
<ChrisH> hornbeck: The subdirectory is still /faq ?
<ChrisH> hornbeck: Hey, I get an SSH connection!
<ChrisH> hornbeck: ...just not for long. Your server kicks me out...: ssh_exchange_identification: Connection closed by remote host
<hornbeck> nice, but you can get through?
<hornbeck> weeeeeee
<hornbeck> how can I fix that
<hornbeck> I have a arch repos set up
<ChrisH> So we are silently switching to arch?
<hornbeck> well I am going to set one up
<sivang> are we?
<hornbeck> we can use what ever but the devs us arch
<ChrisH> I thought we were happy with svn. :)
<hornbeck> that is what Ubuntu uses overall
<hornbeck> we can use svn
<ChrisH> The devs use arch for _some_ purpose. Many parts are still in CVS.
<hornbeck> svn is fine
<ChrisH> And nobody is really urged to use anything special. :)
<hornbeck> calm down
<hornbeck> I plan a svn server for us
<ChrisH> I'm not enraged. I promise.
<hornbeck> I still would like a arch server though
<hornbeck> when you used ssh for me, did you log in with your username?
<ChrisH> I'd like to try it out, too, once. Just was surprised.
<ChrisH> I wasn't even asked for a username. The connection was interrupted. What does your auth.log say?
<hornbeck> try ssh chrish@69.155.172.150
<ChrisH> ssh_exchange_identification: Connection closed by remote host
<hornbeck> hmm
<cenerentola> sorry
<cenerentola> can i speak?
<hornbeck> yes please do
<cenerentola> hi then...
<cenerentola> with UbuntuLinux ITALIA we are now 
<hornbeck> ChrisH I know the problem, I will fix in a bit
<cenerentola> making some hominid-proof how-tos... since theyre referred to clerks, or where-did-solitaire-go-ppl
<hornbeck> you will be able to log in by tomorrow
<ChrisH> hornbeck: ok
<hornbeck> I have to run
<hornbeck> later guys
<cenerentola> as we are porting ubuntu in our  local public administration...
<cenerentola> are you interested in this how-tos...
<cenerentola> ?
<cenerentola> the only difference between normal how-tos.. is that every mouse-movement is specified
<ChrisH> cenerentola: Sounds interesting. What kind of howtos are those really? Introductions for migrations from Windows?
<cenerentola> both
<cenerentola> sorry but mummy is calling for dinner.. and she gets crossed easily at dinner-time... will i find you in 20 min?
<ChrisH> cenerentola: Sure. Bon appetit.
<cenerentola> grazie
<cenerentola> im itaian... not french...;)
<ChrisH> cenerentola: I'm none of both. :)
<hornbeck> ChrisH try to login now
<ChrisH> k
<ChrisH> same story
<cenerentola> ...
<hornbeck> try again
<ChrisH> nope
<hornbeck> hmmm
<hornbeck> what ip are you coming from
<hornbeck> I need to add you to my hosts.allow
<cenerentola> crish: ill come back later..
<ChrisH> hornbeck: 212.12.58.130
<hornbeck> ChrisH: ok, now try
<hornbeck> maybe that was it
<lulu> night all :o)
<hornbeck> night lulu
<ChrisH> hornbeck: sorry :(
<hornbeck> damn
<ChrisH> hornbeck: But it sounds a little like hosts.allow.
<hornbeck> well one last try
<ChrisH> hornbeck: :(
<hornbeck> damn
<hornbeck> I guess I will have to do some more research
<hornbeck> ok, sorry about that
<ChrisH> It's a little hard to help from the remote... :(
<hornbeck> yeah, I know
<hornbeck> once I figure out the ssh stuff the rest will be easy
<ChrisH> Probably.
<ChrisH> Wow... mirroring the archive takes ages.
<plovs_> ?? ????
<plovs_> hi guys
<hornbeck> hey plovs
<plovs_> hornbeck, how are things on the server front?
<plovs_> hi ww
<ChrisH> The server does not like us.
<WW> Hey there
<plovs_> did you nmap?
<ChrisH> I get a port 22 connection but get thrown out later. Sounds like hosts.allow/hosts.deny.
<hornbeck> I have sshd: ALL in hosts.allow
<WW> Dumb question... the program that runs when I click on the life preserver icon is yelp, right?
<hornbeck> WW yes
<hornbeck> which yelp seems to not work in hoary right now
<hornbeck> at least not for me
<hornbeck> I have to head back to work
<hornbeck> later
<plovs_> hornbeck, see ya
<plovs_> ChrisH, i will start on the wiki-faq
<WW> Sadly, yelp does not have a search option. "Find" appears to only look in the current page.
<WW> Or did I miss something?
<ChrisH> WW: Nah, you are right.
<sivang> I think shaunm is alredy working on the find option of the yelp..
<sivang> but I am not sure how table this is..
<sivang> stable
<ChrisH> Nice. IMHO it should at least give the same features like the Windows help.
<plovs_> ChrisH, how do i write &
<ChrisH> hmmm.
<ChrisH> &amp;
<plovs_> ChrisH &amp does not work (i am trying to find it at the docbook site)
<ChrisH> Semicolon?
<ChrisH> It's: &amp;
<ChrisH> Same as in HTML.
<plovs_> works!
<plovs_> ChrisH, after running make, the color of code-blocks is really ugly, is this the official colorscheme?
<ChrisH> Probably not. I just took one of the 5,000 stylesheets that the web site uses. When uploading the HTML it will probably look right.
<ChrisH> If you don't care about styles you may as well remove the line from the .xsl file that sets the stylesheet.
<plovs_> ChrisH, no prob i just noticed it because it is bright red, that's all
<plovs_> the faq in the wiki is quite unorganized
<ChrisH> Oh, yeah...
<plovs_> ok, good night all
<cenerentola> ciao
<sivang> Is the FAQ already in shape to move it into the main website?
<sivang> ChrisH ?
<ChrisH> No.
<ChrisH> plovs has completed his work on the larger part. The second FAQ comes tomorrow. And I'm currently writing a few articles on general topics (what is ubuntu, what is different from debian, etc.)
<ChrisH> But I agree that we could have a first version online tomorrow.
<sivang> great. Have you already posted the svn howto so I can start checking out?
<ChrisH> Yes.
<ChrisH> Long time ago. :)
<George^Deka> morning all
<sivang> hey George^Deka
<ChrisH> George^Deka: Morning? Oh, well... yeah, I feel like monday morning. :)
<George^Deka> ChrisH: well its friday morning here - we are on opposite sides of the globe - im in Australia
<ChrisH> George^Deka: Yes, I guessed that from the .net.au domain. :)
<ChrisH> George^Deka: How is the friday? Is it worth getting up? :)
<George^Deka> ChrisH: well its nice and warm here, though im @ work but havent clocked on yet
#ubuntu-doc 2004-11-23
<sivang> hi ggi
<ggi> Oh, hello.
<ggi> Not much going on just now, it seems.
<sivang> well, 
<sivang> it's kind late for us .. although hornbeck should be here somwhere :)
<sivang> as he is in the states, and has opposite timezone compared to everyone else.
<sivang> are you interested in helping out the doc project?
<sivang> :)
* sivang smiles evilly :)
<ggi> Yes, at least I will be in a couple of weeks' time. I'm kind of busy with essay writing just now, so I'm just... observing.
<sivang> I see. nice. Are you already familiar with DocBook ?
<ggi> No, I don't think so. I'll go look it up.
<sivang> I have some a task that would only require somebody going over a manual in it's xml docbook source form, do what it says and fix it to fit Ubuntu :)
<sivang> more specifically, I am referring to the gnome user manual which needs updated for Ubuntu.
<sivang> as quite some desktop elements are modified 
<ggi> Well, I suppose I can have a look. Where will I get it from?
<sivang> actually, this is not yet hosted on some central server, but I have a version I already started modifying locally.. We are working on setting up a server to do svn/arch at the moment, and when we have it - we'd put it there 
<ggi> Do you have a list of things that need to be fixed?
<sivang> well, I can send you the file, so you could pick up where I started..
<sivang> when you get tired of this,
<sivang> I will take over again..
<sivang> it could use a rework, so you would just need to read it section by section,
<sivang> try and follow the instructions,
<sivang> and fix where ever you think it deservs on. We could be having diffs , so we'll see what we've done.
<sivang> other then that,
<sivang> take a look at the new doc team page : lemme know if it's anyway useful in helping you find out what you want,
<sivang> it's in : http://www.ubuntulinux.org/community/teams/documentation
<sivang> or was it that brough you here the first place?
<ggi> Well, I've looked at it before.
<sivang> ok, then we have a wiki todo list,
<sivang> depends what you best prefer to do, do you have any preferences with regard to documentation work? would you like me to send you the user manual so you could take a glance?
<sivang> hi skyrider! (ggi, no I'm not a welcome bot :)
<skyrider> hi ;)
<sivang> I would like to welcome you to the wonderful doc team channel
<sivang> for Ubuntu, the human linux distro :)
<ggi> Yeah, you could do that. It's getting late (or early) where I am, so I probably won't look at it until morning. I'm finding it hard to focus just now.
<skyrider> sivang: I know what Ubuntu is
<ggi> What size is the file?
<sivang> nothing biggy.. It's a snapshot of the CVS head of the 2.6 manual..
<sivang> only the C dir is there, for the C locale , meaning english in the meanwhile. translations should come afterwards.
<sivang> skyrider : didn't mean in in an offense, sorry :)
<ggi> Ok. Well, you can send it to ggi@btinternet.com.
<skyrider> sivang: ;)
<sivang> ok, thanks. have a look, you can mail me back sivan@workaround.org about it,
<sivang> also make sure you subscribe to the mailing list
<sivang> we have a very nice set of jokes going htere :)
<sivang> there's a link from the docteam main page I before pasted.
<ggi> Subscribed. :)
<sivang> Where are you from ggi ?
<ggi> Bonny Scotland, as they say.
<skyrider> Where are you from sivang? 
<sivang> skyrider : Israel, and you?
<skyrider> I'm from Ukraine
<skyrider> But my native language is Russian
<sivang> ah! It's probably dead cold by now ...:-/
<skyrider> and of cource I know Ukrainian :)
<sivang> Nice!
<skyrider> Not so much
<sivang> In Israel, I have many Russian immigrants freinds :)
<ggi> It's pretty cold in Scotland too. It might snow tomorrow, or so I'm told.
<skyrider> It is about +5 C right now
<sivang> ah, well being Israeli, that is enough cold for me :)
<sivang> Hey Hoodster !
<Hoodster> Hi All? Is there a Scotsman in this group? I lived in Scotland for a while and loved it!
<Hoodster> Hi sivang!
<sivang> yes there is,
<sivang> ggi is :)
<skyrider> sivang: we all have to much Russian immigrant friends there :)
<sivang> haha
<sivang> I really like to hear Russian, Germen.. would love to learn those sometime
<sivang> :)
<sivang> so , are all new people that just joined just accidently reach here? or did you visit some web page? :)
<Hoodster> I found out about this IRC channel from the Ubuntu forums just a minute or two ago.
<skyrider> I've already knew about this chanell for few weeks.
<skyrider> form mail lists
<skyrider> i'm subscribed to ubuntu-doc too
<sivang> oh and btw, we have some pending job of working out the gnome-user-manual for anybody interested....:)
<sivang> I just nagged at ggi fro that :)
<Hoodster> Please forgive me for asking noobie questions. Doesn't gnome have a user manual?
<sivang> skyrider : would love photos of your place if you could send, especially in the snow ;)
<ggi> Mailing lists as well. Why, I remember when this team's inception on the -devel list.
<sivang> Hoodster : noobie questions are welcomed here! Sheeesh, that's a secret,
<Hoodster> I came to this channel to see what activity there is in the doc and I have an interest in contributing to the Ubuntu cause.
<sivang> this channel follows the tradition of #gnome-love..
<sivang> :)
<Hoodster> I mean "documentation department"
<sivang> yes  no problem.
<skyrider> sivang: I don't have winter photos
<sivang> skyrider : non would also be great :)
<skyrider> sivang: Actually I don't have too much summer photos too :)
<sivang> ok, then *any* photo would do :) Russia is beautiful I know
<ggi> sivang: Did you send that file?
<sivang> ok, for the sake of my new 3 nice people here, here goes (I should make it a wiki page)
<skyrider> sivang: I'm in Ukraine! :) But it's neighbourgh of Russia.
<ggi> A wiki page about Russia?
<sivang> nono ggi, about the gnome manual task :)
<sivang> sec.
<ggi> I see.
<skyrider> sivang: I have to search a little for photos  actually.
<sivang> no prob, take you time! no hurry :)
<skyrider> sivang: Give me your e-mail and I'll mail you some links.
<skyrider> Probably tomorrow because it's 3:14am now
<sivang> skyrider : no prob, sivang@gmail.com
<sivang> ggi : it's 3M ...oops
<sivang> it that ok?
<ggi> Yeah, it should be fine.
<Hoodster> Are you all the main documentation people for Ubuntu?
<ggi> Maybe I should start using my Gmail account, now that they've apparently added POP and SMTP support.
<skyrider> ggi: really?
<skyrider> Great news from gmail!
<sivang> tha have????
<sivang> !
* sivang is stunned
<ggi> I think so. It may not be active on all accounts yet. I saw it on Slashdot yesterday, I think. I'll go look for a link.
<sivang> trying to send you...
<sivang> but my evo is buggy, using ubuntu unstable :)
<ggi> Well, I can't find the /. link, but here's the story on ZDNet: http://news.zdnet.co.uk/internet/0,39020369,39173340,00.htm
<ggi> I *would* be using Hoary, but I can't seem to get a working installation from the recently released Array CD. GRUB keeps just hanging. I attribute it to laptop flakiness though.
<ggi> sivang: Is it not working? I haven't received anything anyway.
<sivang> sending...
<sivang> i have a very bad upstream..
<sivang> :(
<ggi> Ah.
<sivang> 96kbits...
<sivang> bad bad bad israeli ISP!!!!
<sivang> :)
<ggi> Hey, it could be worse.
<skyrider> sivang: You don't know anything about Ukrainian ISP
<sivang> how bad is it?
<skyrider> dial-up
<skyrider> 33600
<skyrider> bad phone lines
<sivang> oh...
<sivang> :(
<sivang> man, I thought those went of the world
<skyrider> And (surprise) high costs
<sivang> skyrider : are you using such connection now?
<skyrider> sivang: yeah :(((
<sivang> ggi : you also on dial up? I have some irish freind who only 2 weeks ago got broadband..:-/
<ggi> No, I'm on regular British 512/128 ADSL.
<skyrider> I can't dream about nothing except 115k DSL here. :(
<sivang> ggi : nice
<sivang> skyrider, nevermind.. It should hold you from helping the doc project , if you like.
<sivang> shout your name on the -doc list, I think there's translation work to get done..
<sivang> although the translation framework is at it's dawn,
<sivang> that is why I cannot tell exactly
<skyrider> ok
<skyrider> right now I'm working on something like Ubuntu post-install guide for russian-peaking users
<Hoodster> Is the doc mail list the best way to get involved in contributing?
<ggi> Well, I'm going to give up trying to fix this GRUB thing for now. Night all!
<sivang> Hoodster : well, you could always hang out here and see what's going, but the mailing list should be used for offering new ideas, and also consulted before making drastic changes.
<sivang> nigh ggi!
<ggi> sivang: I'll expect your e-mail to have uploaded by morning :P
<sivang> ggi : btw, I would stay with warty at the mean whiel ... hoary is not so stable :)
<sivang> ggi : I sure do hope so
<sivang> :)
<sivang> it still sending..
<sivang> Hoodster : you should also take a look at the documetnation project / team realted wiki pages, the ubuntu main documentation section etc.
<sivang> this should be a good starting point.
<sivang> we also have a wiki todo list,
<sivang> and there that task that needs done for the next release,
<sivang> modifying the gnome-user-maunal to fit ubuntu's quirks
<sivang> however, we need to first set up the svn/arch server, so it could be worked collaboritly ..
<Hoodster> sivang: I reviewed the todo list and there was only a limited I thought I could take on at this moment (due to inexperience with creating wiki's) and interaction in a community like Ubuntu. So, I need to start with something small or in conjunction with someone else, perhaps.
<Hoodster> To get my feet wet.
<sivang> no problem, there is planty of stuff to do, however this task ir rather big, and is merely reading a document explaining how to do stuff in the gnome desktop, the source looks like html (nothing special really)
<sivang> and one should just follow the instructions, and say / modify where it needs it to suit Ubuntu desktop.
<sivang> :)
<sivang> but not a problem,
<sivang> tell me what you would like on contribing, or even better mail the list about it
<sivang> :)
<Hoodster> I know HTML, quite well. If that will help.
<Hoodster> I am confortable with editing raw HTML code, rather than a GUI editor.
<sivang> it will help you greatly..
<sivang> docbook is xml
<sivang> :)
<Hoodster> hehe
<Hoodster> Well, if xml is like html, then I could pick it up quick.
<sivang> yes, you could. you could also read about this,
<Hoodster> sivang: One idea I had for contributing at the wiki site was a description of how to create mount points for those Ubuntu users that dual boot with MSWindows. I saw a wiki page on how to mount a MSWindows share over a network, but not on the same machine. This was something I had to do when I first installed Ubuntu. However, it might be covered someplace and I missed it or it is too noobieish.
<sivang> Hoodster : find something called Room101 on the wiki, add it there ok ? :)
<Hoodster> sivang: I read something about Room101 but I hadn't actually been there.
<Hoodster> sivang: Thank you for the suggestion.
<sivang> no problem, you see this si something that should get automated in the future versions of Ubuntu , and room101 is for those nasty hacks that need to disappear
<skyrider> sivang: Just for your information: I've created https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/RussianDocumentation wiki page
<Hoodster> sivang: Thank you for the explanation. I just found the Room101 page. Now I have to figure out how to add content to it (hehe)
<skyrider> and written https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/UbuntuRussianLocalizationHOWTO
<sivang> skyrider : :)
<skyrider> ;)
<skyrider> it's a work in progress...
<sivang> skyrider : ah! this is SUPERB!
<sivang> just saw the howto, amazing 
<skyrider> thanks!
<sivang> looks very promising, thank you ! (although I cannot read all of this)
<skyrider> I can't work on it today anymore (4:00 am here). I'll continue writing tomorrow.
<sivang> skyrider : have you looked at https://www.ubuntulinux.org/support/local/ ?
<sivang> skyrider : was it you who added the ru section there?
<skyrider> sivang: yes
<skyrider> :)
<George^Deka> hi all
<skyrider> I'm admin of russian mailing list and #ubuntu-ru
<sivang> ah!
<sivang> finally we meet, why didn
<sivang> you say in the first place?
<sivang> :)
<sivang> Hey George^Deka! I'm nearly fainting..
<sivang> :)
<skyrider> Why I should start conversation with such words? ;)
<sivang> didn't sleep at all..
<George^Deka> hey sivang why you nearly fainting
<sivang> remember last time you been here?
<sivang> didn
<sivang> get no sleep since :)
<sivang> skyrider : :)
<sivang> i'm about 24 hours awake
<sivang> almost
<George^Deka> sivang: what time is it there
<sivang> some nice new people dropped by, so I couldn't leave them to an sleepy channel :)
<sivang> and I had some mainpage works etc..
<George^Deka> sivang: do a world of good for the newbies
<sivang> I do! I just can't resist them!
<sivang> :)
<George^Deka> sivang: i will finally install ubuntu onto my main machine 2nite or 2morrow
<sivang> no problem, make sure you stick to warty the meanwhile..it's getting icky ont he desktop for hoary
<sivang> skyrider : make sure you add anything you finished to the main section, thanks
<Hoodster> Quick question: I am in Room101 and logged in. To add an entry at the bottom of the page, I need to fill in the two white boxes (subject and content) and click the 'add a comment' link. correct?
<sivang> George^Deka , say hello to Hoodster
<sivang> Hoodster : lemme get there also
<George^Deka> sivang: i only got dialup anyway
<Hoodster> Hey George^Deka! You from the Ukraine too?
<George^Deka> sivang: with x.o getting in and everything
<sivang> yes..
<sivang> I can see...
<George^Deka> hi Hoodster - no im for australia, how are you
<Hoodster> sivang: What about that last white box at the very bottom? Do I need to anything with that?
<George^Deka> room101 ?
<sivang> Hoodster : sec.
<sivang> Hoodster : just click on the "edit" tab, to edit the doc source.
<Hoodster> George^Deka: I am okay. Getting my feet wet with Ubuntu documentation. How many people are part of the Ubuntu documentation team? Is it many contributing equally or are there a main 10 or 20 people doing most of the work?
<George^Deka> Hoodster: i am only new too, getting my feet wet (but sivang correct me if i am wrong i have been fairly active and quite vocal) in my first week. There is about 10 people really at a guess.
<George^Deka> Hoodster: how familiar are you with firefox ?
<Hoodster> sivang: The edit page looks like the main page, which I don't want to edit really. But rather, I want to add a new page that links at the bottom of the Room101 page. Am I missing something?
<Hoodster> I use firefox at home and at work.
<sivang> George^Deka : I just realized I know nothing of the international community :) skyrider came here, and I jumped on him with my stipid newbie welcoming commette !
<George^Deka> Hoodster: wheres room 101 page never heard of it
<sivang> Hoodster: sec, sorry be with you in a sec.
<George^Deka> sivang: it happens
<skyrider> sivang: :)
<George^Deka> sivang: get hoodster on ReST and he can add to my firefox howto
<George^Deka> its got ages to go still
<George^Deka> good place to learn a  reall active document
<Hoodster> George^Deka: see https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/Room101
<George^Deka> ohh i thought room101 must of meant teaching but its bug workarounds hey
<sivang> George^Deka : yes, it's the place for the nasty hacks which need get automated in future version of Ubuntu
<George^Deka> sivang: cool now i get it
<skyrider> I have small question: can I mark some text bold _and_ italic same time using ReST?
<Hoodster> George^Deka: Tell me more about your Firefox HowTo...
<George^Deka> Hoodster: to add a subpage to room101, use the bottom textbox marked new parent, name, replacement, subtopic: then click create
<George^Deka> Hoodster: its just very basic now, if you go into edit you will see comments for things i want to add
<George^Deka> Hoodster: if you know how to upgrade from 0.9.3 to 1.0 your more than welcome to add that
<George^Deka> as long as it is instructions from binaries
<sivang> Hoodster : to create a new page, just use the www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/MyPage url
<sivang> Hoodster : and create the new page, then you would need to add a link to it by editing the room101 page.
<Hoodster> sivang: Okay, I am getting it.. I will check it out. Never done a wiki before....
<sivang> all in all, I am _very_ poor at ReST (I prefer MOinMOin much better) and plovs should be the authority on this.
<sivang> Alexander Poslavsky, if I am not mistaken :)
<George^Deka> Hoodster: follow my instructions they are easier
<sivang> come to think of it, I do not know ReST at all
<sivang> George^Deka : I will leave you too to work out now,
<sivang> :)
<sivang> Hoodster : George^Deka's might be easier, I have a tendency to do things in awkward ways :)
<sivang> So kids, nanny is going to sleep ..:)))
<skyrider> sivang: bad. Thanks anyway
<Hoodster> sivang: See yea. Get some zzzzz...
<sivang> skyrider : why bad?
<skyrider> sivang: Good night!
<skyrider> sivang: you don't know ReST
<sivang> no I dont :)
<skyrider> it's bad ;)
<sivang> yes it is, however I am going to do stuff in DocBook, so it's not that bad after all
<sivang> :)
<sivang> I would even feel much better in plain HTML
<sivang> but that rest...ah!
<sivang> :)
<skyrider> DocBook is great
<sivang> yes, I rally love XML
<skyrider> But I don't have time to earn it :(
<skyrider> learn it 
<sivang> George^Deka : Love them newbies for me will ya? :)
<sivang> when I'm away
<Hoodster> George^Deka: I didn't notice the bubble help that pops up when the mouse cursor is over those links (reparent, rename, delete! and create). Thank you for the tip!
<sivang> skyrider : basically, it's not that ahrd to get the hang of it, and then you would be okay with only few tags. take a look at http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocBook
<skyrider> I've already read that and much more actually
<skyrider> But I don't feel comfortable with it
<sivang> skyrider : ah ok...no prob
<sivang> anyway, people this is really good night now!
<sivang> :)
<Hoodster> George^Deka: Do I need still need to fill in the two other white boxes (subject and content) or will a new page appear after I click on the 'create' link that I edit?
<George^Deka> no leave them empty
<George^Deka> cya sivang - ill take over for you
<Hoodster> George^Deka: Thanks!
<George^Deka> new wiki page will appear
<sivang_ZZzzZzzZz> hmm, I don't snore that much
<skyrider> Good bye everybody
<sivang_sleep> night skyrider
<George^Deka> Hoodster: i started with ReST because of plovs, but your choice really ReST is more powerful
<George^Deka> cya skyrider 
<Hoodster> George^Deka: Could you please explain what ReST is?
<Hoodster> hehe
<George^Deka> Hoodster: there are many different langauges you can write the wiki, the 2 preffered ones are ReST and MoinMoin
<Hoodster> George^Deka: I am intrigued to know more about ReST
<George^Deka> Hoodster: wait 1 second
<Hoodster> George^Deka: Do I need to read up on ReST before attempting to create a wiki page?
<George^Deka> I just copied the template and started that way
<George^Deka> but a little reading does not hurt
<George^Deka> ill point you in the right direction
* sivang_sleep is for moinmoin
<Hoodster> George^Deka: I am starting to get it. ReST stands for RestructuredText.
<George^Deka> yes
<George^Deka> https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocumentHowto
<George^Deka> there is a link there to a specific page on ReST for more info and tutorials
<Hoodster> George^Deka: Thank you for the links.
<George^Deka> took me forever to find it
<George^Deka> bloody hidden
<George^Deka> plovs_:  i think the documentation team area needs a cleanup etc..
<Hoodster> George^Deka: Documentation Team?
<sivang_sleep> George^Deka : yes it does, however we do have a new page by now on the main site for the team
<George^Deka> Hoodster: there is a wiki page called documentationteam
<George^Deka> Hoodster: dont worry about it now
<George^Deka> sivang_sleep: really, never knew
<sivang_sleep> George^Deka : how do I make a link in rest?
<George^Deka> 'what i want the link to say <http://linklocation>`
<sivang_sleep> this are backticks??!?!
<sivang_sleep> I thought they were for shell use only..:)
<George^Deka> it was writen by perl or python (forget which one) fanatics
<George^Deka> it may even have __ after the end backtick
<sivang_sleep> dang! in the first tick is plain? or back also?
<Hoodster> George^Deka sivang_sleep: I thank you for the documentation instruction and encouragement. I will try to add that wiki page and will return to this forum because I am highly motivated to contribute to the Ubuntu community. I must go now. Thanks again!
<sivang_sleep> I mean, here 'wha.... ?
<George^Deka> they are the things on the tilde key next to the 1 key
<sivang_sleep> ok thanks
<George^Deka> here is a example
<George^Deka> `look on Google <http://google.com>`__
<George^Deka> you do need those __ afterwards
<sivang_sleep> yes, it killed me for the moment, and in this late/early hour..
<sivang_sleep> I must say moin moin is bettter..
<sivang_sleep> for new people also wanting to contribute
<George^Deka> http://docutils.sourceforge.net/docs/user/rst/quickref.html
<George^Deka> i know its not the easiest to start off with - but its like python
<George^Deka> cya Hoodster 
<George^Deka> i better go too
<George^Deka> cya all
<George^Deka> quite possibley be back on 2nite
<George^Deka> my time 6 or 10 hours away
<hornbeck> back
<hornbeck> gone
<hornbeck> anyone around?
<hornbeck> you guys are always asleep when I am awake
<plovs_> morning!
<hornbeck> good morning
<plovs_> how's it going with the server?
<hornbeck> its running
<hornbeck> I switched it to debian sarge
<hornbeck> would you mind checking my ssh for me?
<hornbeck> ssh 69.155.172.150
<plovs_> do you have icq/gaim?
<hornbeck> yeah 
<hornbeck> emudork99 on aol
<hornbeck> I hate ssh :-)
<hornbeck> I am going to bed
<hornbeck> goodnight
<ChrisH> Moin...
<plovs_work> hi!
<ChrisH> Just booking the flight.
<ChrisH> :)
<ChrisH> Okay... found a flight and hotel room. Looks like I will book the whole story in an hour. Sorry guys... I'll be with you. :)
<plovs_work> ChrisH, very nice
<ChrisH> plovs_work: Same days as you btw. :)
<plovs_work> nice, how will you fly?
<ChrisH> In a plane.
<ChrisH> :) Nah... Lufthansa direct flight from Hamburg to BCN.
<ChrisH> I managed to keep the costs under 1000 EUR. Expensive though.
<enrico> ChrisH: tried Ryan from Hahn to Girona?
<enrico> ChrisH: www.skyscanner.net
<ChrisH> They only offer Germany -> UK.
<ChrisH> That website seems to display trash.
<plovs_> ChrisH, http://www.bookryanair.com Reus -> Frankfurt 14,99Euro
<plovs_> ChrisH, or over london, 1 euro hamburg - london!
<enrico> plovs_: 1 euro plus taxes, visa fees, extra whatevers... it will be like 25 euros
<enrico> ChrisH: Well, ryanair has Hahn->Gerona for like 16GBP+18GBP =~ 34GBP =~ 50EUR return
<enrico> Then you need a train to Frankfurt, the bus to hahn (frankfurt to hahn was 11euro one way an year ago)
<enrico> So it's 50+22+train to frankfurt
<enrico> plus, of course, girona<->matar
<enrico> But it should all be much less than 1000eur
<enrico> The problem is, Ryanair leaves hahn at 6.25 in the morning
<enrico> Ah, no, also at 19:35
<plovs_> i'm trying to find flights from riga-barcelona, straight connection, nothing under 800$ (a nice one 2021$, return ticket)
<plovs_> what online companies have you tried? http://www.vueling.com/ http://www.finnair.com http://www.bookryanair.com
<enrico> plovs_: The only low cost from Riga that I see goes to Frankfurt hahn
<enrico> plovs_: you can then get another low-cost from hahn, but you'll probably have to spend the night in the airport
<plovs_> enrico, yes, that's no fun
<enrico> plovs_: riga->hahn is up to 23 GBP one way
<plovs_> enrico, i'll try to fly over amsterdam
<enrico> www.sleepinginairports.net :)
<enrico> All the tips&tricks you might need
<ChrisH> plovs_: I need a direct flight. My wife and my son (8 months old) will come with me. It's too much hassle otherwise.
<plovs_> ChrisH, yes, with your family it's better not to rough it
<enrico> according to www.sleepinginairports.net, sleeping in Hahn is not easy
<enrico> Gosh, yes: it you move with family that's really not an option
<ChrisH> plovs_: It's the first time we'll be leaving town with the baby anyway. She deperately wanted to come with me. Let's see what she will do there.
<ChrisH> plovs_: Cooking? Carrying the mascot? :)
<ChrisH> plovs_: She's more the user type.
<plovs_> ChrisH, it's still nice to have m with you i suppose i'll be traveling alone and it will be very weird, i haven't been alone for a week for ages
<ChrisH> Me neither. I hate traveling alone.
<ChrisH> She said she wanted to meet a few new people and practise speaking english.
<ChrisH> She'll probably take the baby for a walk at the sea and be half-time at the conf.
<ChrisH> plovs_: Do you happen to know how far from the hotel the conference will be? Do we need to travel by train/taxi forth and back?
<plovs_> ChrisH, no idea http://www.tecnocampus.com/eng/presentacio.htm is where we'll be at
<ChrisH> Hmm. So Mataro is a suburb to Barcelona. And the hotel is in Mataro, too. Hmmm. Can't be that far.
<plovs_> ChrisH, http://www26.germanwings.com/
<plovs_> ChrisH, not many flights from hamburg though
<ChrisH> Hamburg -> Stuttgart? Close. :)
<plovs_> ChrisH, maybe you can hitch-hike the rest?
<plovs_> ChrisH, no? ok.
<plovs_> ChrisH, http://www.skyscanner.net/day/de/cheap-flights.html also nothing (good) from haburg
<ChrisH> I think I'll do it through our biz service. (Employees get 5% less to flights.)
<ChrisH> When I got it booked I need to care about the most important issue: a wireless card.
<plovs_> ChrisH, still looking for one as well
<plovs_> ChrisH, if i can't find any i'll bring a small hub and cables
<ChrisH> I don't have wifi at home either. But I'm willing to try it.
<sivang_sleep> hey ChrisH is comfing after all!!!!
<sivang> MOrning all!
<ChrisH> sivang: Hi. :)
* ChrisH has just confirmed the flight
<WW> Good morning all.
<WW> ChrisH: Just dropped by to say thanks for adding BOFs to the wiki :)
<WW> Your nice writeup saved me a session with google.
<ChrisH> WW: :)
<ChrisH> WW: I was searching for the meaning for long enough myself.
<hornbeck> good morning
<sivang> hey hornbeck, whassup?
<sivang> can we have a current updates on doc affairs? anybody willing?
<sivang> *update
* sivang feels bit lagged
<hornbeck> hey sivang
<hornbeck> I am working on the book
<hornbeck> and the server
<sivang> nice ok, and the server?
<hornbeck> I am going to throw the server out the windowo
<hornbeck> :-)
<sivang> I have had some 2 more newbies here last night (see the logs),
<hornbeck> ok
<sivang> we really need to get the gnomedocs on a server,
<hornbeck> I got one the other night
<sivang> I have 2 people willing to give hand on it
<sivang> who was he?
<hornbeck> ChrisH has a server up right now right?
<sivang> ChrisH : it's all up and working?
<hornbeck> skyrider
<sivang> btw, we also need something to make order of the international community..:0
<sivang> :)
<sivang> YD , the russian admin came here, and I popped on him with my newbie welcome flood ...:)
<hornbeck> I thought I was in this room but I was in ubuntu-devel when skyrider came in and I started talking to him about docs
<hornbeck> so he got interested
<plovs_> hi guys
<hornbeck> hey plovs
<plovs_> hornbeck, i just saw a server flying by, yours?
<hornbeck> might be
<hornbeck> debian sarge is sucking my ass
<hornbeck> it errors on everything
<hornbeck> apache2 can't be installed
<hornbeck> ssh decided it did not like to work anymore even inside the network
<hornbeck> subversion would not install
<hornbeck> just a bunch of poop
<plovs_> hornbeck why don't you use woody+backports?
<hornbeck> don't know
<hornbeck> have not tried :-)
<hornbeck> I think that is next
<hornbeck> this server will run
<hornbeck> and it will run good
<hornbeck> even if I have to use gentoo, it will work
<plovs_> hornbeck i only run woody, ask chris what he uses
<hornbeck> I was talking to some local users yesterday who do server stuff
<hornbeck> they all use slackware
<plovs_> hornbeck, hmm, i used to but i like debian better
<hornbeck> I used to use slackware on the desktop
<hornbeck> I cannot believe I went this long using linux and never built a webserver
<plovs_> gentoo is nice as well, just takes too much time to install
<hornbeck> gentoo is real nice, but it has always broke on me
<plovs_> hornbeck, i found updating slack less easy then debian, the packages are newer, though
<plovs_> ChrisH, what do you run on your servers?
<hornbeck> well I have always used swaret for slack
<hornbeck> he either uses woody or sarge
<hornbeck> I read last night that ssh was a problem in both sarge and sid
<hornbeck> so that might be some of my problem
<plovs_> hornbeck, try woody, you have a fast pipe, you can install it in an hour, then add stuff from backports.org and you're done, later you can pin stuff from sarge
<plovs_> my woody servers have uptimes of 6/7 months
<plovs_> (4 of them)
<hornbeck> ok, I will download a install disk real quick
<sivang> ChrisH : https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=3353
<sivang> oops
<sivang> ChrisH : http://www.ubuntulinux.org/support/documentation/
<sivang> ChrisH : check latest howtos :)
<hornbeck> man the debian installer hates lcd's
<plovs_> hornbeck, yes it does, at least some of them, even ubuntu does btw
<hornbeck> yeah, that is still the debian installer though :-)
<plovs_> i have an old crt for this
<hornbeck> the only monitor I have right now is a lcd for my server
<hornbeck> I am ordering a nice server with crt
<hornbeck> getting a t1 line also :-)
<hornbeck> I am happy
<plovs_> hornbeck, cool
<hornbeck> my boss is paying for all of it
<plovs_> hornbeck, but if you use framebuffer then lcd is ok, and some lcd work fine
<plovs_> hornbeck, your boss? are you blackmailing him?
<hornbeck> he is a cool guy
<hornbeck> I am going to host a site for himi
<hornbeck> him
<plovs_> would say so
<hornbeck> he is buying my a six thousand dollor server
<plovs_> what is it sun?
<hornbeck> he said "You cannot run a server on a piece of crap"
<hornbeck> a high end dell server
<plovs_> right!
<plovs_> how much space do you have a terabyte?
<hornbeck> something like that
<hornbeck> its nice
<hornbeck> 2 gig ram
<hornbeck> dual xeon's
<plovs_> a bought an hp for < $1000 (without drives)
<plovs_> what will you run? MS windows 2003?
<hornbeck> he wanted to order it with RedHat enterprise installed
<hornbeck> we are going to use debian
<plovs_> ok, i was already typing a long reply
<plovs_> installing is a pain though
<plovs_> if you want to use woody
<hornbeck> woody just finished installing on my server
<plovs_> fast!
<hornbeck> will not boot though
<hornbeck> damn
<hornbeck> I think it wrote the bootloader wrong
<plovs_> boot from the cd
<hornbeck> I am
<plovs_> lilo leaves something to be desired :)
<hornbeck> this is grub
<plovs_> i only have problems with grub on old computers, then i put it on hda1
<hornbeck> I normally do mbr
<hornbeck> but I think I skipped that step this time :-)
<plovs_> we need a telepathy enabled installer
<hornbeck> that would be nice
<hornbeck> man the boot loader is all messed up
<plovs_> i think i got my tickets figured out 350 euro's back and forth
<sivang> hornbeck : what were you discussing on -devel ? :)
<sivang> anything interesting?
<hornbeck> when
<hornbeck> oh me and that guy
<hornbeck> I told him we needed translations
<hornbeck> cause he is russion
<hornbeck> russian
<hornbeck> you know I never make it to work on time anymore, you guys never talk till it is time for me to leave
<hornbeck> :-)
<plovs_> i can check the russian but i can't translate myself
<plovs_> hornbeck does woody work?
<hornbeck> no
<hornbeck> I redid the bootloader by hand and still would not boot
<hornbeck> I think I found the ssh problem though
<hornbeck> I did have a firewall running on the router, and I think that was blocking it
<hornbeck> we will see in a sec
<ChrisH> Back, people...
<hornbeck> ChrisH: what do you run on your servers?
<ChrisH> plovs_: Debian/Sarge, Apache2, Subversion. Worked from the first moment.
<ChrisH> plovs_ => hornbeck
<hornbeck> ok
<plovs_> hornbeck, nice if it gets rubbed in, right
<hornbeck> yeah
<hornbeck> if I knew what I was doing it would more than likly work :-)
<hornbeck> have to learn sometime
<plovs_> hornbeck, funny it did not work
<plovs_> is it possible to install debian over ssh?
<hornbeck> I don't know?
<ChrisH> Nope.
<hornbeck> man beagle will not build lately
<ChrisH> hornbeck: What about your server? Fixed it finally?
<hornbeck> no
<ChrisH> hornbeck: What's wrong?
<hornbeck> everything :-)
<hornbeck> I can get apache to work
<hornbeck> that is it
<hornbeck> I am caught up on ssh
<ChrisH> hornbeck: apt-get install apache2 and that's it...
<hornbeck> I want it to work
<ChrisH> hornbeck: What do you run there? Warty?
<hornbeck> sarge right now
<hornbeck> changed over
<hornbeck> apache takes alittle more than apt-get install apache2
<ChrisH> Why?
<hornbeck> config files
<ChrisH> Just copy/paste the few lines. I didn't change anything else here either.
<hornbeck> I think I figured out the ssh problem so it should all be good in alittle while
<hornbeck> I have to go to a meeting first though
<ChrisH> If in the meantime anyone likes to help working on the FAQ and needs an account to subversion just tell me.
<hornbeck> sarge will not let me install apache2
<George^Deka> hey all
<hornbeck> apache2-mpm-perchild/prefork/worker all error out
<George^Deka> ChrisH: which faq?
<hornbeck> oh well, I will work on it later
<hornbeck> bye guys
<George^Deka> bloody warty wont install
<ChrisH> George^Deka: plovs_ has started to move the current two cluttered FAQs into a DocBook/XML file.
<ChrisH> George^Deka: I'm currently working on some general questions about Ubuntu. And we could of course use help there.
<George^Deka> well installed step1 but wont boot after that
* sivang pokes plovs_
<ChrisH> George^Deka: e.g. someone who keeps an eye on mailing lists and adds FAQs voluntarily
<plovs_> sivang, what's up?
<George^Deka> ChrisH: yeah sure, but let my get my warty fixed - now to find those helpful folk in #ubuntu
* ChrisH thinks we need two Doc Teams... :) One team with working systems and... another team. :)
<sivang> hey plovs_ :) just wanted to know if you need a hand on the faq , or any other stuff..
<George^Deka> hahahaha
<plovs_> sivang, too late
<sivang> join #ubuntu-devel
<ChrisH> sivang: Batteries out again?
<ChrisH> msg sivang You are sooo stupid. :)
<George^Deka> ChrisH you forgot the / look whos stupid now
<sivang> he meant it that way, I think :)
<sivang> btw, does anybody how I tell gnome to use alsa?
<sivang> it's suddenly using OSS
<sivang> :o/
<ChrisH> George^Deka: That was on purpose. :)
<ChrisH> Anyone got a recommendation on a cheap wifi card for the conf?
<ChrisH> sivang: Shouldn't one of us (you?) start writing a doc-team-newbie-welcome page? Lulu already told us we should have some information what's currently on the to do list. So we can figure out what is in which state.
<ChrisH> sivang: I'm confused, too, as my focus is on the FAQ currently.
<plovs_> sivang, hi
<George^Deka> sorry im not with it trying to make my machine boot
<plovs_> ChrisH, doc-team-newbie-welcome: https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocumentHowto
<plovs_> ChrisH,  what's currently on the to do list  https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/WikiToDo
<plovs_> sivang, there is really nothing to help with, it is just stright-forward editing
<ChrisH> plovs_: Ok. Although there is probably more than just tasks regarding the Wiki. FAQ maintenance from suggestions and mailing lists. Translation of documents (who translates what). Fixing man pages. Handling announces or perhaps a "Ubuntu Weekly News"...
<sivang> ChrisH : yes ofcourse, pending..:)
<plovs_> ChrisH, yes we should add all that stuff to either a doc-team todo-list or bugzilla
<ChrisH> plovs_: I suggest Wiki. New users will probably just create a Wiki account and can easily add their tasks there.
<plovs_> sivang, would you mind making a page and add the tasks ChrisH mentioned to it, and the stuff from wikitodo etc? I would rather continue with the faq
<sivang> ofcourse, not a probem.
<sivang> but it is going to be in MoinMoin :)
<ChrisH> sivang: Okay... then I will learn MoinMoin, too... :)
<sivang> haha
* sivang is not so comfortable with ReST
<plovs_> sivang it is really not that hard, by the time you have finished you doc you'll be a pro  https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocumentHowto
<sivang> ok, lemme have a go at that :)
<plovs_> sivang, and comment on that page, one day it is supposed to be a userfriendly newbie-doc
<sivang> what, the wiki? Or ReST ? (Yeah, like that is ever going to happen...)
<sivang> :)
<plovs_> https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocumentHowto
<George^Deka> first time i missed the link to the other rest pages
* George^Deka needs his own personal linux guru so i can get this bloody system working - damn getting no where after hotplug
<ChrisH> George^Deka: Does hotplug just hang?
<George^Deka> seems like it, it does not say anything after hotplug and its just hanging there, i did have 2 modules that gave me errors before but blacklisted those and no change still hangs
<ChrisH> George^Deka: I had trouble with a USB card reader. Just removing the extra hardware once and booting helped for the next time. Don't ask me why.
<plovs_> do you guys use the remote desktop?
<George^Deka> ChrisH: Good idea iv got a usb printer on it
<ChrisH> plovs_: Yes.
<plovs_> ChrisH is this supposed to work:
<plovs_> ChrisH, i have a vnc connection to my main desktop
<plovs_> ChrisH, i have fluxbox on vt8
<plovs_> i go to vt8, my vnc connection goes bananas
<plovs_> ?????
<plovs_> vt7 is normal gnome
<George^Deka> ChrisH: no avail
<ChrisH> plovs_: Weird.
<ChrisH> George^Deka: Even without the printer?
<plovs_> ChrisH, my wife wants to watch a movie, i want to use gnome, i have only one monitor here, i thought i had it fixed
<George^Deka> ChrisH: Well i thought it didnt work, but it did hang for only a second, im in !!!
<ChrisH> George^Deka: cool
<George^Deka> ChrisH your my saviour
<ChrisH> George^Deka: :)
<plovs_> George^Deka, hotplug is slow
<George^Deka> plovs_: hotplug is crap now i need a smoke to recover from the pain it caused me
<George^Deka> hope i didnt accidendly do a upgrade during installation, cause im on dial upn (broadband is so expensive here)
<plovs_> ChrisH, what do you think would it be good idea to subdivide the divisions in the wiki?
<ChrisH> plovs_: How exactly?
<plovs_> ChrisH, under installation i have: vmware/virtualpc  java/mono  but also first installation questions
<ChrisH> plovs_: Ah, you mean <sect3>? Why not.
<plovs_> ChrisH, anyway i'll first finish it then we can work on layout and videoclips
<ChrisH> plovs_: Yeah, right. :)
* ChrisH wonders if we should agree on a single Wiki format (be it Moin or ReST)
<George^Deka> ChrisH: yes we should
<George^Deka> ChrisH: can docbook convert to ReST
<ChrisH> George^Deka: Not yet AFAIK. But I would take the challenge to write an XSLT stylesheet to do the conversion.
<George^Deka> well my theory is docbook is so much easier to learn, and if we did everything in docbook it could then be converted to go into anything we wanted, portability
* sivan_away yays for George^Deka
<George^Deka> because then in theory howtos can be put on the wiki or plone and yelp
<plovs_> George^Deka, ReST is for unfinished docs, wiki-able docbook is for stable docs, only the doc-book can alter them
<ChrisH> I don't completely like the Wiki approach. But if you give me a few days I'll try the XSLT.
<plovs_> ReST -> docbook would do the trick docbook -> ReST would not work in the long term
<George^Deka> plovs_: good point, but maybe we just need the svn server for unfinished and we tell each other here and in ML
<plovs_> George^Deka, sure, for the stable documentation, especially the stuff we want on the cd
<George^Deka> yeah but whats the point in writing it in complicated ReST, when we are going to have to re-write it in docbook
<George^Deka> thats the issue the re-writing
<plovs_> George^Deka, ReST is not complicated (like riding a bike, really simple after you know how)
<plovs_> George^Deka, rewriting is a pain yes
<plovs_> George^Deka, ReST -> docbook , we need a python-wizard for that
<George^Deka> plovs_: yes it is not the most complicated - but docbook because of its xml format is easier - espicially for someone new to documentation
<George^Deka> plovs_: we do need a python wiz for that, wonder if mark will put a bounty up for it ?
<plovs_> George^Deka, i humbly disagree, ReST is easier then docbook, docbook is *better*
<plovs_> George^Deka, put it the wiki in wikitodo or our todo list
<George^Deka> put what in there a ReST to docbook converter
<WW> Hi all
<George^Deka> then we can clearly state everything is to be done in ReST (poor sivan_away)
* WW scans log 
<ChrisH> Thre are ReST to Docbook converters already.
<ChrisH> Just that the output will hardly look like we want it to be.
<George^Deka> yeah well just found one - http://docutils.sourceforge.net/sandbox/oliverr/docbook/
<George^Deka> and its python by the look of it
<ChrisH> George^Deka: Care to try it out?
<George^Deka> my system is still installing so not yet
<George^Deka> but soon
<ChrisH> George^Deka: Press the "turbo" button. ;)
<George^Deka> it dont have one
<George^Deka> it boots!!!
<George^Deka> think i set my resolution too low cause couldnt remeber what i usually use
<plovs_> ChrisH, how do i make a numbered list?
<ChrisH> plovs_: <orderedlist>?
<ChrisH> plovs_: http://www.docbook.org/tdg/en/html/orderedlist.html
<ChrisH> plovs_: There is an example.
<plovs_> ChrisH, thanks
<George^Deka> brb going to get on my new nix box
<ChrisH> bbl, going home
<George^Deka> ChrisH: this thing will take a while to get going i think
<George^Deka> what irc client do you people use
<sivan_away> xchat
<sivan_away> it sucks
<sivan_away> :-/
<George^Deka> thats what i am thinking, is there away to make it put the colon after someones name if its at the start of the sentance automatically
<George^Deka> i had been using chatzilla the otherday it kicks ass over xchat
<George^Deka> if only i could use chatzilla in a firefox tab then i would be set
<George^Deka> i cant even find where to put the on connect options
<George^Deka> how did you people go about upgrading fx to 1.0? i want to know details, did you rem distro vers ? did u just use the tar ? find a repo or what
<George^Deka> this is good for me and the documentation
<George^Deka> how did you people go about upgrading fx to 1.0? i want to know details, did you rem distro vers ? did u just use the tar ? find a repo or what
<George^Deka> nite all
<George^Deka> cya
<plovs_> ChrisH, awake?
<ChrisH> plovs_: Yes. Just committed my part.
<plovs_> ah, ok, well, i probably did something wrong, i added faq_ap_error
<plovs_> which is my version of the faq
<plovs_> i got errors syncing
<plovs_> can you diff and patch?
<ChrisH> plovs_: Can't you just "svn rm" it?
<plovs_> well i can off course but my updates are in faq_ap_error
<plovs_> i could not upload my faq.xml
<ChrisH> ah, okay
<plovs_> can you diff and patch?
<ChrisH> You could check out an older version of the faq.xml and run "diff" on it to see what you need to paste into the "real" faq.xml
<plovs_> ok, i'll put my changes in then
<ChrisH> thanks...
<ChrisH> How come you edited another document? Accident? :)
<plovs_> no, i tried to commit and got an error, so to not accidently loose my data i copied it to faq_ap
<ChrisH> Eek.
<plovs_> i'll just mv to faq.xml and try to commit again
<ChrisH> Ok. Either that works perfectly or there will be nothing left afterwards. :)
<plovs_> well, looks like it worked
<plovs_> my stuff is all there
<ChrisH> Cool.
<ChrisH> Just that all my changes are lost now. :(
<plovs_> i have a diff
<ChrisH> Do you restore my changes?
<plovs_> how do i checkout v29?
<plovs_> it is yours
<ChrisH> svn update -r 29
<plovs_> are your changes in 29?
<plovs_> because i am wondering how to unite the diff
<plovs_> the dif i had is the same as a dif between 29 and 30
<ChrisH> Hmmm.
<ChrisH> Perhaps we need to read a little more in subversion.tigris.org
<plovs_> yes, i am reading now, we somehow crossed eachother
<ChrisH> Perhaps something like "svn revert"...
<plovs_> it is all there v27,v29 and v30, but how to unite it
<plovs_> i made copies of all 3
<plovs_> in a seperate folder
<ChrisH> Hmmm.
<plovs_> i think i fixed it, i put the following file in svn test.xml, can you test it
<plovs_> ok, uploaded it
<enrico> need svn help?
<sivang> hey enrico!
<plovs_> enrico, i messed up the faq, now we need to entangle it
<plovs_> ChrisH, does test.xml have your commits?
<ChrisH> I check.
<enrico> plovs_: if you have any specific question about svn, I can try to help
<ChrisH> Nope... my changes are gone again.
<ChrisH> enrico: Cool!
<enrico> plovs_: just put my name on the channel and I'll be summoned
<enrico> (unless I'm offline)
<plovs_> enrico, well, we have three versions v27,v29 and v30
<plovs_> enrico, and on the way we lost ChrisH additions
<plovs_> ChrisH, which one still has them?
<ChrisH> revision 29 still has them
<sivang> are we talking about the FAQ here?
<ChrisH> then plovs_ committed revision 30 (after a file rename) and my changed were overwritten
<ChrisH> Yes.
<plovs_> yes
<enrico> how about make a diff between 27 and 29, then apply it to 30?
<plovs_> enrico, it fails all over
<enrico> svn diff -r 27:29
<plovs_> enrico, ok, i try
<enrico> THat generates the diff 
<enrico> then you can use patch to apply to 30
<enrico> Do I have access to that repository?
<plovs_> enrico then patch faq.xml < 27-29.diff ?
<enrico> plovs_: yes
<enrico> and see what happens
<enrico> where faq.xml comes from v30
<plovs_> ChrisH, can you svn up to 32?
<plovs_> ChrisH, and check?
<plovs_> ChrisH, nope, 32 is a mess
<enrico> Is there a public read-only access to that at least?
<ChrisH> let's see
<ChrisH> enrico: sure... http://ubuntu.workaround.org:8080/faq
<ChrisH> enrico: I can instantly give you write access. Thanks for your help.
<enrico> Cool!  How do I do a write checkout?
<ChrisH> enrico: "svn co http://ubuntu.workaround.org:8080/faq" should work
<ChrisH> enrico: /msg me a password you like to get for the write access and I'll set up an account
<enrico> works
<enrico> ChrisH: do you have a gpg key?  If yes, just tell me the key ID
<plovs_> enrico, so we need to resolve the difference between v29 and v30
<ChrisH> enrico: should be 79CC6586
<ChrisH> enrico: will you send me a password?
<enrico> ChrisH: yes, encrypted via mail.  Is that ok?
<ChrisH> enrico: /msg had been sufficient :)
<enrico> ChrisH: that's cleartext transmission :)
<ChrisH> enrico: after all... we can revert changes if the repository would get compromised
<enrico> ChrisH: Sent
<ChrisH> enrico: k
<enrico> So, we have that the changes from v27 to v29 are lost in v32: is that correct?
<ChrisH> enrico: Yes, I think so.
<plovs_> enrico, can we revert to 29?
<enrico> uhm, ehu
<ChrisH> enrico: account created
<enrico> ehi, I mean: all changes from 27 to 29 are also in 32
<enrico> I just went through the whole diff
<plovs_> 32 doesn't parse
<plovs_> i have a diff of my changes from 29 -> 30
<plovs_> can we revert to 29? 
<plovs_> then i just add my changes and were done
<plovs_> so delete 30 - 32
<enrico> Wait: the contents in the rest of the document are ok.  We just have to make it parse
<enrico> let's see...
<ChrisH> enrico: 32 contains two files!
<enrico> ChrisH: I'm at version 32 and I have Makefile README faq.xml test.xml ubuntu.xsl
<ChrisH> enrico: try "grep DOCTYPE faq.xml"
<ChrisH> enrico: you'll see that these are the two versions just concated
<enrico> Oh!  So nice!
<enrico> I suggest to split that in two files, then use meld on them
<enrico> apt-get install meld
<plovs_> enrico, is just reverting to 29 not easier?
<ChrisH> I'll split them and join that manually.
* ChrisH just wonders how that has happened
<enrico> I just checked with meld: the second half is just an old version
<enrico> Just delete the second half of the file
<ChrisH> Did it. Commited. 33 should be clean now.
<enrico> btw, I so much suggest to aptitude install meld
<ChrisH> enrico: I run "vim -d"... worked well for me
<plovs_> doesn't parse
<enrico> vim -d is cool as wel
<enrico> plovs_: parses here
<enrico> plovs_: try rm faq.xml; svn update
<enrico> (or mv faq.xml faq1.xml :)
<plovs_> yes, removed it and svn up, now it's ok
<plovs_> ChrisH, my stuff is ok, yours?
<ChrisH> plovs_: same
<enrico> "svn blame -r32 faq.xml"  shows that the second half comes from plovs, so it may have been plovs' copy that was broken somehow
<ChrisH> enrico: Great!
<ChrisH> enrico is da bomb
<ChrisH> enrico: I know it. It must have been plovs_ mistake. ;)
* enrico cheers at the thing working again!
<plovs_> enrico, but how did 30 happen? (32 is just 30 patched with the diff between 27 and 29)
* plovs_ bows his head in shame
<enrico> plovs_: it's not your fault, probably
<ChrisH> plovs_: No need to. I'm also interested in how to resolve such conflicts. Using subversion the normal way is boring if everything works. :)
<enrico> I imagine something borked somewhere
<plovs_> enrico, thanks for fixng it
<enrico> no problem!
<plovs_> ok, updated 34, the faq have basically been put in, now they need order and checking
#ubuntu-doc 2004-11-24
<plovs_> i'm of to sleep, thanks ChrisH for not revoking my svn-pass yet, enrico for saving the day
<enrico> plovs_: please sleep well: it wasn't your fault, I bet :)
<ChrisH> plovs_: Why should I revoke anything? Kidding? :)
<ChrisH> plovs_: That's the advantage of a repository. If anything breaks just go back to an earlier version.
<ChrisH> plovs_: If you ever find me cancelling an account for such a poor reason I deserver to be banned from here!
<plovs_> :-) night guys
<ChrisH> renite...
<ChrisH> . o O ( and if anything breaks seriouly just ask enrico :) ) O o .
* sivang LOLs
<sivang> enrico : are busy at the moment?
<enrico> about to go to bed: can I be of last-minute help?
<enrico> ChrisH: make a daily backup of the repository, just in case :)
<sivang> enrico : I would like to start putting stuff into yelp, do you know anything of it?
<sivang> I already thought about creating a ubuntnu-doc pacakge,
<enrico> sivang: no, but I can study in the next days
<enrico> maybe hornbeck knows about it, too
<sivang> ok, I am also in contact with shaunm, it's author so we should be able to get help from him also..
<sivang> however, as I am not that experienced I find it at times hard to understand his instructions :)
* sivang tries to show that he is doing _something_ :)
<enrico> sivang: just pretend you know a lot and forward those instructions around :)
<sivang> hahah
* enrico goes to bed
<sivang> Good night enrico
<plovs_> sivang, still awake?
<sivang> yes , trying to get some work done after I've been pretty ill most of the day
<sivang> :(
<plovs_> too bad
<plovs_> yelp just uses docbook
<sivang> plovs_ : I know, I am thinking of creating a package that will hold our docs from our svn server,
<plovs_> if you are interested in that, make a list of docs you would like t o have in yelp
<sivang> and will just copy the docbook xml documentation to somwhere (/usr/share/ubuntu-doc) and then run update-scrollkeeper
<sivang> so it would get registered
<plovs_> we should see if we can get all the important docs in yelp
<plovs_> including manpages
<sivang> manpages...hmmm
<plovs_> and we need to bug the author to fix searching
<plovs_> some manpages are good
<sivang> havn't given though to that, but I know there are several gtk tools which let you read man pages in gnome
<sivang> yes they are..some aren't :)
<plovs_> man pages are build from docbook
<plovs_> at least they can be
<sivang> https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=3353
<plovs_> we want to get the faq in yelp as well
<sivang> anyway, I am trying now to do some of the tasks up this backlog :)
<sivang> after which I will go through my task list from the doc meeting summary
<plovs_> nice!
<sivang>  at least, I think I am feeling better 
<sivang> btw, read the bug?
<plovs_> btw i prefer info pages over doc pages
<plovs_> yes
<sivang> I never got along with info :)
<plovs_> i spoke with mdz about help docs, we can just make packages
<plovs_> for yelp i mean
<plovs_> i found tickets btw, will order on monday
<sivang> yes, I had that answer from him sometime ago, I think. however yelp is going to need some lovin for release:)
<sivang> I have 3 pending orders which I can cancell..
<sivang> I'm bargaining to get the lowest price I can :)
<sivang> how much did you find?
<plovs_> yes about yelp, cool about the tickets
<sivang> I mean, what price? (you don't have to answer if you don't want too)
<sivang> :)
<plovs_> 350 euro
<sivang> I see.. well mine's around 350-400$..still trying to get another discount :) It's kind'a acceptable here :)
<sivang> but this is the price from europ I heared :)
<sivang> it's kind'a expansive there
<sivang> you in holland or something?
<sivang> (if I recall right)
<plovs_> i'm in latvia atm but from holland
<sivang> ah right ;)
<plovs_> and i'll fly over belgium
<sivang> nice, you said your sister is there , right?
<plovs_> prices are so weird, between 1 euro to 1000 euro a ticket
<plovs_> yes, i'll be visiting her
<sivang> that's nice :)
<sivang> anyway, could you help me with some wiki catching up?
<sivang> :)
<sivang> I've basically avided ZWiki , until I could have a personal session with it's master :)
<plovs_> well quickly before my eyes close by themselves :-)
<plovs_> ok, shoot
<sivang> how I should be adding pages?
<sivang> (It's not the same as was in MoinMoin I remember)
<plovs_> go to the bottom of the motherpage it has a box, add a name and add page
<plovs_> pages are sorted in a tree
<sivang> motherpage == fronpage ?
<plovs_> no there should not be anything under FrontPage
<plovs_> AllPages is the root
<plovs_> and then by theme: HowTo Warty etc
<sivang> ok, so if I want to add something to https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/HoaryGoals
<plovs_> another page?
<sivang> I am adding our UDP list of hoary goald
<sivang> goals
<plovs_> if it for us, go to docteam, otherwise under https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/HoaryHedgehog
<sivang> strange, it shows me the source in ReST Of the UDP page
<sivang> that was imported from MoinMOin
<plovs_> if i touched it, then it is no longer in moin
<sivang> :)
<sivang> I am also thinking of adding yet another section to FP,
<sivang> "I want to help"
<sivang> devided to sections for, artwork, docs, development,advocacy
<sivang> (another of my "good" ideas")
<plovs_> What if you make a page for it and link to it from the frontpage
<sivang> yes , better
<plovs_> instead of many links
<sivang> :)
<sivang> yes to not clutter the main apge
<sivang> that would mean that we remove the "Want to help?" at the top of page
<plovs_> Maybe make it link to your new page
<plovs_> WikiToDo is also under wiki
<sivang> .. is remakr?
<sivang> ok, great. not to add YASTFP
<sivang> :)
<sivang> Yet Another Section To Front Page
<sivang> :)
<plovs_> i had almost deciphered it :)
<sivang> **How can you help? Check out the WikiToDo list**
<plovs_> put https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocumentHowto on your page, it explains how to create wiki-pages
<sivang> how does it know where to link ?
<sivang> yes
<plovs_>  WikiToDo is a WikiWord
<plovs_> it automatically links
<sivang> ah, at least that was kept in ReST :)
<plovs_> so would SiVang if you would like it to
<plovs_> i can't believe http://wiki.ubuntu.com still has not been fixed
<plovs_> it's weeks now
<sivang> How can you help? Check out the general TodoList? and for the blogger in nature, the WikiToDo list
<sivang> this is ok?
<sivang> provide a shortcut to the wiki to do list
<plovs_> sure, you can make sections on the todo page as well
<plovs_> and then add graphical work there as well
<sivang> hmm..I leave the icons for you :)
<sivang> you icons addcit!
<sivang> addict
<plovs_> i read how you can make videos as well, of your linux desktop
<plovs_> :-)
* sivang hides
<sivang> :)
<plovs_> i have one how jakub draws a new icon in gimp
<plovs_> really nice
<sivang> jakub?
<plovs_> he makes lots of gnome icons
<plovs_> he might make an icon for the wiki as well
<plovs_> but we should get our text in order first
<plovs_> text is more important then layout
<sivang> great!
<sivang> I always like some upstream lovin' :)
<plovs_> speaking of late, it's almost 2 o'clock, i need to get some sleep
<plovs_> cu tomorrow
<sivang> night
<sivang> hey skyrider!
<skyrider> hey
<skyrider> sivang: I've written some info about myself - you can find it at https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/AlexeyMolchanov
<sivang> thanks! I am thinking of adding some internationalization section to the docteam page, so we would know about each lang community administrators and people.
<skyrider> sounds good
<sivang> However this may have some common parts with the Internationalization team..
<sivang> so I am still not sure about it
<skyrider> Probably it's better to discuss this on ubuntu-doc
<skyrider> or ubuntu-translators
<sivang> yes
* sivang reminds himself to subscribe to the translators list
<skyrider> ok
<skyrider> :)
<sivang> I've seen you did some more wiki work, great.
<sivang> http://kid.stu.cn.ua/~skyrider/ <== what's there ? :)
<skyrider> yes
<skyrider> "Nothing useful yet" ;)
<skyrider> some random stuff I ever was interested in
<sivang> ah nice. this is the uni webserver?
<skyrider> Yes
<sivang> http://kid.stu.cn.ua/~skyrider/docs/debian/apt/guide.html/ <== this is also on debian doc corner?
<skyrider> Yes
<skyrider> But it's only copy of standard debian docs
<sivang> ok, you got them handy :)
<skyrider> Our students usually don't have access to internet (*shame to the university*)
<sivang> I am also learning packaging at the moment
<sivang> yes , it is a shame
<skyrider> so I've decide to make some useful docs available for them
<sivang> great
<skyrider> Today my good friend with my help translated one more HowTo
<skyrider> Result here: http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/HowToGetHelpRussian
<sivang> superb!
<skyrider> You are welcome :)
<sivang> could you please have a list of all translated material under the russian community page / or somwehre on the wiki?
<sivang> we must make sure no good work like yours slipps away
<sivang> :)
<sivang> I liked the icons
<skyrider> it's already there: https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/RussianDocumentation
<sivang> nice, yeah I found it now :)
* sivang is releived :)
<skyrider> Some more restructurization of that page needed
<sivang> no prob, just make sure everything will go there
<skyrider> But it is task for the future
<skyrider> sivang: Of course!
<sivang> btw, you didn'
<sivang> find me any links for you
<sivang> arghh
<sivang> that damn [ENTER]  :)
<skyrider> :) What links?
<sivang> you found any photos for where you are? :)
<skyrider> Oops, sorry!
<sivang> this is me : http://www.pbase.com/jsr2497/haifa
<sivang> :)
<skyrider> I have them. But I need to choose some nice for you
<sivang> I hope this doesn't take too long to load on dialup
<skyrider> It's loading................................ ;)
<skyrider> Excellent!
<skyrider> Very beautiful place
<sivang> you might find this also useful :)))
<sivang> http://www.pbase.com/ilanphoto/studance
<skyrider> Oh, Bikini girl! ;)
<sivang> yeah :)
<sivang> haha
<skyrider> Very interesting photos :) Thanks
<sivang> no problem. I really like what Ubuntu is doing to us :)
<sivang> making freinds all over the world,
<sivang> sharing, getting to know each other.
<sivang> it's amazing :)
<skyrider> yes
<sivang> I really support that
<skyrider> sivang: I have a serious question: where I can find irc log of all Ubuntu channels?
<skyrider> not on  http://irclog.workaround.org
<skyrider> I'd like to see it splited but days
<sivang> skyrider : ah! a very good one. This is something I am working on with mako, lulu and well, fabbione as he is the logger guy..:)
<sivang> lemme see if I can get someone to talk to me on this,
<skyrider> GRREEEEEEEEEAAAAAT!!!
<sivang> We might be able to split days over irclogs.workaround.org
<sivang> I'll check
<skyrider> It wold be great if logs will be colorized by irclog2html.pl script by our famous :) Jeff Waugh
<skyrider> I' look on it
<sivang> he done that script? nice..
<skyrider> yes
<sivang> mail me at sivan@workaround.org , with a link to that script as well as bugging me on the log thingy so I won't forget, could you ? (sorry for asking, but I tend to have very shortem memory)
<skyrider> I was surprised too
<skyrider> Hey make have that script
<sivang> ok
<skyrider> look for example on commuity meeting logs: http://people.ubuntulinux.org/~mako/cc-meeting_log-20041109.html
<skyrider> there is a link to it at the bottom of that page
<skyrider> Ooops! You should read it like 'Hey _mako_ have that script'
<sivang> yes
<sivang> just found it..
<sivang> :)
<skyrider> :)
<skyrider> I'll mail you tomorrow (today) anyway.
<sivang> thanks
<skyrider> "irclogs.workaround.org could not be found" WTF?
<sivang> hmm lemme check
<sivang> http://irclog.workaround.org/
<sivang> :)
<skyrider> :)))
<sivang> I am going to get something to eat , ttl
<skyrider> I'm going to sleep
<skyrider> All this week I've slept no more than 3 hour/day. :(
<skyrider> Good bye!
<sivang> hi trickie
<George^Deka> hi all
<sivang> hey George^Deka
<George^Deka> hi trickie, fellow ausie about time
<George^Deka> hi sivang, shouldnt you be cathching up on sleep
<sivang> I did some, then went out, then got some enregy back :) Now I'm trying to put up some more work :)
<George^Deka> sivang: cool, in a week or 2 i will need more work, did what i said from doc meet just not done the fx doc.
<trickie_> hi George^Deka
<George^Deka> Has anyone here upgraded to fx1.0 - how did you go about it. - rem the package ? delete the dir ? symlink to the normal fx dir?
<George^Deka> Cause there are so many ways about going about it, i want to know what people have done so i can workout what is the best
<George^Deka> for myself and the fx howto
<sivang> George^Deka : I just dist-upgraded to hoary, it was there
<George^Deka> yeah thats one way, but if your staying on warty
<sivang> Well, you might be able to add hoary sources, and install just about that package,
<sivang> but if it depends on stuff from haory, that it might break stuf..:)
<sivang> I have no other idea, then that.
<George^Deka> yeah i know
<sivang> hey Hoodster!
<sivang> I see my nightly buddies start coming in ...:)
<Hoodster> Hi sivang! I did it! I posted the wiki page we spoke about yesterday at Room101
<sivang> great!
* sivang is having a look
<George^Deka> hoodster: ill have a look to you know off hand what the address for room101 is
<sivang> Hoodster : 2 words = (superb,thank_you!) :)
<Hoodster> George^Deka: Yes, it is https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/Room101
<George^Deka> also i had a problem installing last night was hotplug had to pyll out all usb devices and it worked, should that go in room101
<Hoodster> sivang: No, thank you. I do think I was a bit wordy. I also don't know how it will be received. That makes me most nervous.
<Hoodster> Before I forget, Hi George^Deka: It is good to see you again.
<sivang> George^Deka : that can go there, plus I would recommend opening a bug against it
<sivang> Hoodster : don't worry about it. However , I am not sure if the reboot is neccesary - if you had trouble with gnome, even logout --> login could help
<sivang> check that..if you find it's ok, you could change the page in the future. And don't worry, we are very nice happy bunch of people here
<Hoodster> sivang: Yeah, you are right. The reboot is left over from my windows days (hehe)
<sivang> no prob :)
<Hoodster> I didn't add my name to it, so I have no idea if anyone can really find out who posted it. Is it anonymous at the moment?
<Hoodster> I also just noticed that I did not truly folllow the Room101 instructions in the white box. I did not name the hardware/software or anything like that...
<sivang> well, this is basically a general issue , so I think that might be appropriate if you just mentioned something that this related to dual booting, pc system or something.
<sivang> but hack, it would get corrected by Alex Poslavsky anyways I guess, if he find the need.
<sivang> don't worry too much about it
<Hoodster> I don't like to do it, if it isn't correct (LOL)
<sivang> Just adopt the habit, of when you finish something on the wiki, post the list ask for comments etc..
<sivang> this is the general way how we do stuff here, that would get attention by other memebrs and you would get comments and corrections :)
<trickie_> Hoodster: i am getting something craziest thing when i look at that URL 
<trickie_> Hoodster: a little window opens up titled 'Gecko' and '%pippkiDTD' as the text 
<sivang> trickie_ : let us here it
<trickie_> Hoodster: The main window doesn't load
<Hoodster> trickie_: I don't know, the url link in XChat works for me. Does anyone else have a problem with it?
<trickie_> Yeah i think it must be my firefox... looks like a rendering error
<trickie_> hence 'Gecko' as the title of the little error window
<Hoodster> trickie_: I am using Firfox 0.9.3.
<trickie_> hmmm
<trickie_> just opened it from a term and it worked ok...
<trickie_> that was wierd
<sivang> I didn't
<sivang> I use 1.0 on hoary
<trickie_> i am using RC1 on hoary
<trickie_> every now and then i get some wierd stuff like but can't reproduce it
<Hoodster> trickie_: Nothing like being on the cutting edge of technology (hehe). How is the Hoary experience?
<trickie_> Hoodster: Great!
<trickie_> Hoodster: i really like this distro... i must say it is the nicest linux experience i have had
<trickie_> Hoodster: that why i hang out here... try to find something to help out on
<Hoodster> trickie_: What did you use before Ubuntu?
<trickie_> Hoodster: well i have a OSX laptop that i use at home and at work, and at work i got a dual boot WinXP/Fedora box
<trickie_> Hoodster: buti just bought an new AMD64 CPU, so i thought i would try out ubuntu's AMD64 release...
<trickie_> Hoodster: and it is fantastic!
<Hoodster> trickie_: Like you, I am here to see how I can contribute. I just posted my first wiki page with the expert help of sivang and George^Deka. I am ready for more...
<trickie_> Hoodster: So that is Room101?
<Hoodster> trickie_: Good to hear Ubuntu works well with AMD64, I am going to recommend it to a co-worker that has this CPU.
<sivang> ok guys, I'm currently working on the a more dignified TodoList for us..I will get it ready by sunday I guess :)
<Hoodster> sivang: Okay. I will be out of town on Sunday and Monday. I probably view the new page Tuesday and show up here Tuesday night to see how I can contribute.
<sivang> no problem Hoodster , that's cool :)
<sivang> every help is blessed
<George^Deka> thanks hoodster, i had not even reallised my issue
<George^Deka> thanks hoodster, i had not even reallised i have the same issue
<George^Deka> should it not be a howto ?
<Hoodster> George^Deka: Your quite welcome. I love to help.... It is sort of a combination of a feature request and a workaround....
<Hoodster> I am sure it can be described a couple of other ways. It is, what it is.... (hehe)
<Hoodster> sivang: Without divulging the specifics of the updated ToDoList, will it be lengthy and span months or will it be short and specific with target dates within one to two weeks?
<sivang> I am not sure about target dates, this might get more formal outlinening on the conf IMHO, but there is an ever growing list of stuff need get done that I am going to put there, and would keep short and pointy :)
<sivang> basically the wish is to have 3 major things for hoary release:
<George^Deka> sivang, is the updated list up yet (at least partway through completion ?) so i maybe able to take stuff
<Hoodster> sivang: Will it be a requirement that I use Hoary? I am using Warty. I would hate to not be able to contribute because I am incompatible.
<hornbeck> ChrisH: you around?
<sivang> * Fix Ubuntu already shipping documentation, re bug https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=3353
<sivang> * Pacakge and deliver stuff from wiki / other sources to be available offline, through yelp (GNOME help browser) 
<sivang> * Establish the infrastructure to allow broad community participationo in contributing.
<sivang> this are high level ofcourse..
<sivang> hornbeck : he's way in bed :)
<hornbeck> damn
<sivang> hornbeck : how the server going?
<hornbeck> I am working on the svn right now
<hornbeck> but I am getting a server error
<hornbeck> I followed his instructions to the t
<sivang> you'll just have to wait to (our) mornig :)
<sivang> that is, UTC+2
<trickie_> hornbeck: you need some help with svn?
<hornbeck> trickie_ yes
<trickie_> hornbeck: i know a little
<hornbeck> I have apache set up
<trickie_> hornbeck: whats the issue
<hornbeck> I set up svn from ubuntulinux.org/wiki/Subversion
<hornbeck> when I try to access it, it errors with "Alert!:HTTP/1.1 500 Internel Server Error
<hornbeck> I am not sure what I am doing wrong
<trickie_> hornbeck: ok... can you access the apache error log?
<hornbeck> yeah
<hornbeck> could not open the requested svn filesystem is the last one
<trickie_> hornbeck: ok... give me too secs
<hornbeck> ok
<trickie_> hornbeck: have you got the filesystem location mapped to a web accessible URI?
<hornbeck> 69.155.172.150/doc
<hornbeck> try it
<sivang> working
<sivang> :)
<sivang> <m:human-readable errcode="160029">
<sivang> Could not open the requested SVN filesystem
<sivang> </m:human-readable>
<sivang> it couldn't open the file...
<sivang> :(
<hornbeck> right
<sivang> but apache is running
<sivang> :)
<trickie_> has the filesystem path got priviledges for the apache user
<trickie_> ?
<hornbeck> but 69.155.172.150/index.html
<hornbeck> that works
<hornbeck> I don't know
<trickie_> hornbeck: what are the privilesdges for the subversion repository on the filesystem
<trickie_> ?
<hornbeck> hornbeck: 777
<hornbeck> all open
<George^Deka> hornbeck: do you have ssh going on the machine ?
<hornbeck> ssh will not work for some reason :-)
<hornbeck> have never been able to get it to work
<sivang> damn.. ReST is killing me, hornbeck could you help me ? I started changing something on the FrontPage, namely the link to the wiki to do list,
<sivang> could you revert it ?
<sivang> for some reason it's giving me System Message: WARNING/2 (<string>, line 28); backlink
<sivang> Inline strong start-string without end-string.
<sivang> or George^Deka ? any ReST guru here...
<George^Deka> im trying to get to the frontpage first
<George^Deka> ReST aint that bad, iv only been using it for 3 days, just read the doc and you cant go too wrong
<sivang> why can't adding a link ? 'JUst work' ?? :)
<George^Deka> based off the error you didnt end the bold
<George^Deka> but ill have a look, loging in now
<George^Deka> it can if you add it right
<trickie_> hornbeck: hard to figure out what is without seeing how u set up the repository location the apache conf file
<George^Deka> sivang, what was the link you were trying to add - location ?
<sivang> just revert it back to the already 'WikiToDo'
<sivang> which is already exsiting..
<sivang> I will continue ReST tommorow :) it's not easy for late hours :)
<George^Deka> well if you have the doc u wanna link, i can add the link easy enough
<George^Deka> think i worked out what you did wrong you did **text ** and it should be **text** i think
<George^Deka> fixed it, i have not reverted it for the time being
<George^Deka> sivang, fixed
* George^Deka brb smoke time
<sivang> thanks!
<George^Deka> sivang, i did not revert it though for now - see above i explained your error
<sivang> sorry, I had some urgent irc convos
<George^Deka> i understand
<sivang> back
<George^Deka> shit ddint even have my smoke, check the page now
<sivang> ok
<sivang> i see the old version..strange..
<George^Deka> shift refresh
<sivang> still the old line..
<sivang> with the TodoList
<sivang> not WikiToDO
<sivang> not WikiToDo
<trickie_> hornbeck, you still trying to get it working?
<George^Deka> yeah i left it as todolist, i can change it to wikitodo if you want
<trickie_> hornbeck, http://svnbook.red-bean.com/ has details about mod_dav_svn if you don't already have it
<Hoodster> Thank you all for the help. I will return to see how else I can help. If I get some ideas, I will be sure to discuss them here first.
<sivang> yes if you could, thanks :)
<George^Deka> sivang will do
<sivang> thanks..I'm nearly dropping :)
<George^Deka> does anybody know how to set up junk email filtering in evolution ??? the faq does not make much sence - the places it tells you to go are not in evolution 2
<George^Deka> sivang, dropping ?
<sivang> eyes closing by themselves..
<George^Deka> i know what you mean.
<sivang> I'm off ...Zzzzz
<hornbeck> I'm back
<hornbeck> sorry it's my wifes birthday so I was doing stuff with her
<hornbeck> trickie_ You around?
<George^Deka> hornbeck: do you know how to install tomboy? these isn't a howto
<hornbeck> sudo apt-get install tomboy
<hornbeck> I use cvs though
<hornbeck> oh wait
<hornbeck> tomboy is in tseng's repos
<hornbeck> let me find it
<hornbeck> http://ubuntulinux.org/wiki/BreakMyUbuntu
<hornbeck> the top repository 
<trickie> hornbeck: sorry... doing a few things myself
<hornbeck> ok
<trickie> hornbeck, but yeah back
<hornbeck> I can access the svn repos locally
<George^Deka> thanks, ubuntu really needs mono etc in the universe atleast, should be supported though
<hornbeck> just not through apache
<hornbeck> mono is in universe
<hornbeck> tomboy is not
<trickie> hornbeck, ok... it must be in your httpd.conf file
<hornbeck> well I have never setup apache before the day before yesterday
<trickie> ok...
<trickie> :)
<hornbeck> if I gave it to you could you look at it?
<trickie> yeah for sure..
<trickie> wanna mail it?
<hornbeck> I am putting it online for you
<trickie> cool
<hornbeck> try 69.155.172.150/hornbeck
<hornbeck> see if that works
<trickie> nah
<trickie> 404 
<hornbeck> ok, what is your mail address
<trickie> error
<trickie> nick@trickie.org
<hornbeck> ok
<hornbeck> on its way
<trickie> cheers
<hornbeck> thanks for the help
<trickie> np
<trickie> so what is the file system path to the repository?
<hornbeck> /var/www/doc
<hornbeck> should it be in my home directory?
<hornbeck> I did not think of that
<trickie> yeah... i think /var/www is the default sites document root
<hornbeck> yeah
<trickie> so apache would be getting confused about which way to server it
<trickie> server it
<trickie> yeah i would try moving it under your home dir
<trickie> and make sure the apache2 user can access that directory
<hornbeck> how do I do that(man that makes me seem like such a newb)
<trickie> also... you needn't wrap the Location in a virtual host
<hornbeck> I just want to make sure I am doing it right
<hornbeck> ok
<trickie> ok.. how about i write up some quick instructions and mail you back
<hornbeck> please :-)
<trickie> np... get it to you soon... just gotta keep an eye on some things here
<hornbeck> ok
<hornbeck> I kinda got it to work
<hornbeck> yeeeeeee
<trickie> awesome
<trickie> so you still need a hand?
<hornbeck> yes alittle, I am getting url not found on server now
<hornbeck> but it knows its a svn 
<trickie> cool
<hornbeck> I can lynx to it now
<trickie> ok
<hornbeck> now I get could not open the requested svn filesystem
<trickie> so now the default document root is not /var/www
<trickie> ?
<trickie> or did you move the repository?
<hornbeck> it is now /home/hornbeck/docs
<hornbeck> I moved it
<hornbeck> and it started kinda working :-)
<trickie> are you getting asked for the http auth?
<hornbeck> no
<hornbeck> I am if I try to go through the router
<hornbeck> I got a authorization failed
<trickie> ok
<trickie> did you set up the password using htpasswd?
<hornbeck> I think
<hornbeck> let me try again
<hornbeck> I just tried but it did not take it still
<hornbeck> it will not authorize the passwords
<hornbeck> does the password file need to be readable by more than root?
<trickie> probably
<hornbeck> www-user?
<trickie> apache runs as root initally at start up then moves to the user apache2
<trickie> yeah i would set it to 744
<trickie> did you run htpasswd with sudo?
<hornbeck> yes
<hornbeck> should I not have?
<trickie> doesn't matter really
<trickie> as long as you change it so other users can read it
<trickie> it doesn't store plaintext passwds or anythingh
<hornbeck> it is not working :-(
<hornbeck> closer though
<trickie> run 'tail /var/log/apache2/error.log
<trickie> '
<trickie> any errors there?
<hornbeck> file does not exist /var/www/favicon.ico
<hornbeck> client denied by server configuration: /usr/share/doc
<trickie> ok... you need to get rid of the virtual host i think
<trickie> you only need the Location block
<hornbeck> I did get rid of the virtual host
<trickie> the default virtual host is serving your request first
<trickie> oh ok
<trickie> :(
<trickie> try getting rid of the LimitExcept block
<trickie> just have Require valid-user
<trickie> by itself
<trickie> could you send through your conf file again?
<hornbeck> yeah
<hornbeck> on its way
<hornbeck> it is only failing on authorization
<trickie> sent it back
<hornbeck> ok
<trickie> try that...
<trickie> i'll be back a bit later if it odesn't work
<trickie> doesn't
<hornbeck> ok
<trickie> :)
<hornbeck> it still will not authorize
<hornbeck> well I am off to bed, I will be back tomorrow evening
<hornbeck> hehe its working :-)
<hornbeck> http://69.155.172.150/svn
<hornbeck> nothing there yet :)
<hornbeck> the svn seems to work
<hornbeck> for passwords please email me
<hornbeck> goodnight
<George^Deka> hornbeck, i cant be bothered emailing but i want one
<George^Deka> hornbeck, what irc client do you use, i am getting sick of xcrap
<trickie> hornbeck: any luck?
<George^Deka> he said its working, think he went bed
<trickie> cool
<trickie> ciao
<ChrisH> Morning gals... :)
<sivang> howdy all
<hornbeck> good morning
<hornbeck> man, slow night, I can still see the stuff I wrote before bed
<hornbeck> ChrisH: you around?
<hornbeck> sivang: you around?
<Hoodster> Hi all. I have a question about transferring useful information from the forums to the wiki. Is this a desirable thing to do?
<hornbeck> ok
<hornbeck> yes, any form of doc is desirable
<Hoodster> horbeck: Thank you for replying. Has someone taken this task to heart? (hehe)
<hornbeck> not that I know of
<Hoodster> hehe, I am trying to think hard of ways I can contribute. Although I know HTML and I just yesterday began learning ReST, I am afraid that I don't have expertise for the more technical documentation. I am also interested in adding/improving documentation to the current release, because I don't use the next one. So, one I idea is to have someone actively read the forums for useful HowTo's information that would make the Ubuntu a really 
<Hoodster> complete document.
<hornbeck> that is a great idea
<hornbeck> or transfering over the forums faq, and howto's
<Hoodster> yes
<Hoodster> I would be interested in helping do this. I think this would be an ideal task for me. 
<ChrisH> hornbeck: hi :)
<Hoodster> The way I would go about it, is not transfer anything until it had been tested by a minimal number of users with success. Then report that new HowTo/tip to this chat room and discuss its usefulness and uniqueness (no need to add multiple pages with the same information). If the document team agrees that it is good to add to the wiki, then I would create a new wiki page.
<ChrisH> Hoodster: You could be a great help with the new FAQ!
<ChrisH> Hoodster: We have collected the Wiki pages to write an FAQ in a single DocBook/XML document.
<ChrisH> Hoodster: Help in what you propose would be desperately needed.
<ChrisH> Hoodster: Someone who follows the forums and the mailing lists and who adds those entries to the docbook FAQ would be a great help.
<Hoodster> ChrisH: How long will it take to get up to speed on xml?
<ChrisH> Hoodster: Very quick. I have prepared a short introduction. Let me fetch the link...
<hornbeck> Hoodster: docbook is easy stuff
<ChrisH> Hoodster: All you need is a text editor (vim?) and "subversion" installed. So you can check the FAQ out and back in.
<Hoodster> hornbeck: Easy compared to what? (hehe) python? fortran? HTML? (hehe)
<ChrisH> Hoodster: It's very similar to HTML.
<hornbeck> compared to eating icecream on a hot day
<Hoodster> LOL
<ChrisH> hornbeck: you may want to start here: http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocBook
<Hoodster> ChrisH: I know HTML, so that is good.
<ChrisH> Hoodster: It's like HTML with different tags.
<hornbeck> ChrisH: I may want to start there?
<ChrisH> Hoodster: The template is already complete. So all you had to do is write small articles in the sections where you think they fit.
<Hoodster> ChrisH: Sounds easy enough. I will be interested in giving it a try.
<hornbeck> Hoodster: it is pretty easy to understand
<ChrisH> Hoodster: Great. We can create a repository account for you so you can upload your changes directly.
<Hoodster> Do I do the actual editing offline or online?
<hornbeck> Hoodster: offline
<Hoodster> Do I upload the new files via local ftp client or is that uploading done through an HTML webpage?
<hornbeck> through subversion
<ChrisH> HTTP.
<hornbeck> really
<hornbeck> ?
<hornbeck> nice
<ChrisH> "apt-get install subversion" first
<ChrisH> hornbeck: Well... it uses HTTP. Subversion knows a few schemes for data transmission.
<Hoodster> What is subversion exactly?
<ChrisH> Hoodster: A repository system like CVS.
<plovs_> hi guys
<hornbeck> hey
<Hoodster> Hi
<ChrisH> hornbeck: Looks like the repository on your site is now even read-protected?
<ChrisH> plovs_: Hi, Alex!
<hornbeck> plovs_: my repository is working
<hornbeck> ChrisH: when did you check
<Hoodster> ChrisH: I am not all that familiar with CVS, is this a content control mechanism?
<plovs_> hornbeck, yes! 
<ChrisH> hornbeck: 1 minute ago
<ChrisH> Hoodster: Yes. But it's not really hard.
<hornbeck> I just had someone check it and they said it was fine
<ChrisH> Hoodster: see http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/SubVersion
<ChrisH> hornbeck: I can't access it. I get a username/password prompt on the web browser.
<ChrisH> hornbeck: We should probably keep it free for all to read.
<ChrisH> hornbeck: Didn't you take my sniplet for the apache config?
<Hoodster> ChrisH: Do I install subversion with sudo?
<ChrisH> Hoodster: yes "sudo apt-get install subversion"
<hornbeck> ChrisH: I planned on it
<hornbeck> ChrisH: brb, let me see whats wrong now
<Hoodster> ChrisH: subversion is installed
<Hoodster> How do I see the current status of the xml docs? Or do I need to wait for the repository account?
<plovs_> ChrisH, 
<plovs_> oeps
<hornbeck> ChrisH: try it now
<plovs_> hornbeck, ok, pulling out stuff now
<hornbeck> nice
<hornbeck> :-)
<plovs_> now it stopped ??
<hornbeck> :-(
<plovs_> now it continued
<hornbeck> :-)
<plovs_> added the faq to the repo
<hornbeck> nice
<hornbeck> good deal
<plovs_> added makefile and README as well
<hornbeck> I still have to learn how to add things :-)
<hornbeck> I guess with the add command
<plovs_> svn add README Makefile
<plovs_> svn ci
<plovs_> i am a pro already
<plovs_> i even managed to mess things up yesterday
<hornbeck> good deal
<plovs_> fortunetely enrico and ChrisH repaired it :-)
<hornbeck> well, I am about to head off for  a yoyo comp, so I will be back this evening
<Hoodster> ChrisH: When you have a moment, let me know how to get started. I glanced the XMLdoc HowTo, but I still don't know where to begin.
<ChrisH> hornbeck: better
<plovs_> ok, be back later as well
<ChrisH> Hoodster: subversion installed?
<Hoodster> ChrisH: yep!
<ChrisH> Hoodster: try: svn co http://ubuntu.workaround.org:8080/faq
<ChrisH> hornbeck: checkout worked
<hornbeck> if I remove something how do I commit it
<ChrisH> hornbeck: svn rm ...
<hornbeck> ok
<Hoodster> ChrisH: I did that and I have 5 lines tha begin with the letter A
<ChrisH> hornbeck: so you have put all subproject into the same repository... hmm, ok
<ChrisH> hornbeck: look at your current directory
<hornbeck> ok
<hornbeck> is it bad to have them all in the same repository?
<hornbeck> or do they all need different <Location>
<ChrisH> Hmmm.
<ChrisH> I think different Locations would make sense.
<ChrisH> If I only wanted to work on the FAQ I had to download all the gnome2-user-guide stuff also.
<hornbeck> ok
<hornbeck> so that all needs to be changed in the apache2.conf?
<ChrisH> hornbeck: I assume you do backups regularly etc.
<ChrisH> hornbeck: Yes.
<hornbeck> ChrisH: yes I do
<hornbeck> and going to even more so now
<Hoodster> ChrisH: I apologize for needing beginner help. I read the SubVersion wiki at ubuntu, but I still don't know how to interact with subversion. Do you have any link I can go to read up on it so that I can be of use (hehe)?
<ChrisH> Hoodster: That was the primer (the second half).
<ChrisH> Hoodster: Usually all you need to do is just change what you want.
<Hoodster> ChrisH: Do I need to create a password file?
<ChrisH> Hoodster: Make sure they still work (e.g. run it with "yelp faq.xml" or run "make" and watch for errors
<hornbeck> Hoodster no
<ChrisH> Hoodster: Once you are happy with your changes you just run "svn ci" to check your changes back in.
<ChrisH> Hoodster: more complete: http://svnbook.red-bean.com/en/1.0/ch03.html
<Hoodster> ChrisH: I don't quite understand. I think the problem is that I don't quite understand the basics. Thank you for the link, I will check it out. What did the syn co command do?
<Hoodster> I think the svn co probably copied files, but to where?
<ChrisH> Hoodster: Do you know a /little/ about repositories? 
<Hoodster> ChrisH: No, unfortunately, I don't. I suspect that a repository is a place were items are stored.
<ChrisH> Hoodster: Exactly. Okay... let me put it like this...
<Hoodster> Perhaps the svn co was a checkout command?
<ChrisH> Yes. You get a copy of the files on the server.
<ChrisH> You then just edit the files and upload your new files through "svn ci".
<ChrisH> ci = check in
<ChrisH> co = check out
<Hoodster> I have used a program that uses the same concept.
<ChrisH> The server will then magically "merge" your changes.
<ChrisH> The magic is that different people can do changes to the files. And all can upload their changes which will be merged into a final document (if possible).
<Hoodster> ChrisH: Where are these file? That is what I need to know first I think. I did the svn co command you gave above.
<ChrisH> So if you work on part A and I work on part B of the same document we won't collide.
<Hoodster> ChrisH: I get it. :) Now, where are these files? hehe
<ChrisH> In your current directory.
<ChrisH> And a copy is kept on the server (which is currently here with me).
<hornbeck> can I svn commit file:///
<Hoodster> ChrisH: Boy, was I dense on that one. I was looking in that directory, but just didn't see it. For some reason, I was looking for a directory called svn, not faq. My apologies.
<hornbeck> if I try to go svn commit it errors out on authorization
<ChrisH> Sorry if I'm stalling. Got my mother-in-law's PC in VNC for a quick help. :)
<hornbeck> thats cool
<Hoodster> ChrisH: There are two xml files, a makefile, ubuntu.xsl and a readme file.
<Hoodster> Is there any way to see the output before I update the repository? I can't do it in my browser because of no styles.
<ChrisH> Hoodster: either "yelp faq.xml" or "make" and then view the html file in your browser
<hornbeck> it will suck if I cannot work on my own thing 
<ChrisH> Hoodster: For the "make" you need to have these packages installed, too: docbook-xsl and xsltproc
<Hoodster> ChrisH: The yelp command worked, but I suspect you knew it would (hehe)
<Hoodster> ChrisH: oops! I forgot to say thanks!
<Hoodster> ChristH: This is cool!
<ChrisH> Hoodster: you are welcome :)
<Hoodster> ChirsH: Sorry for spelling our name incorrectly.
<Hoodster> Oops! I did it twice! I must be getting too excited over this subversion.
<ChrisH> Hoodster: Well, at least I know who you mean.
<Hoodster> Please correct me if I get this wrong. There is only one file to edit. The entire xml doc is this one file, unlike HTML.
<ChrisH> Hoodster: Yes. The faq.xml is the FAQ we are working on. The Makefile (do you know "make"?) will create the html file for you (if you have the packages above installed).
<Hoodster> I am installing them now and will test out the make command.
<ChrisH> ok
<alan__> ChrisH: My system froze and I had to reboot. I lost the make command. Is it svn make faq.xml?
<alan__> This is Hoodster.
<ChrisH> alan__: no... just run "make". See if you have the "make" package installed
<alan__> ChrisH: I have make
<alan__> ChrisH: I am not 'make' knowledgable. I tried make faq.xml but that didn't work. What is the command?
<ChrisH> alan__: just run "make"
<sivang> hey peopel, back for a while
<alan__> ChrisH: Okay, I got it. I simply did a ls command and now see the newly created faq html file.
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-doc:sivang] : Ubuntu Doc Team - general discussion - backlog at http://irclog.workaround.org | this channel has split personality, it may also be referred as "ubuntu-love" and all newbies are welcome! :)
<alan__> Hi sivang: I, with the help of ChrisH, is getting deep in the xml doc project. ChrisH has been very patient and get me up and going with subversion. I am so green, I am amazed he hasn't given up yet (hehe).
<alan__> How do I change my nick back to what I had it to before?
<Hoodster> I figured it out.
<sivang> well, he will not give up. He is a very special AI robot, I have written during my last college semster , cool ha ?
<Hoodster> LOL
<sivang> he even responds to emotions, 
<sivang> ChrisH : :-)
<sivang> he is far more superior to dpkg and other, on freenode, which you might be familiar with from #debin
<sivang> :)
<Hoodster> ChrisH: Now that I am getting the basics, I just want to revisit my original idea.
<sivang> could you remind me , Hoodster?
<sivang> (about what)
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-doc:sivang] : Ubuntu Doc Team - general discussion - backlog at http://irclog.workaround.org | this channel has split personality, it may also be referred as "ubuntu-love" and all new comers are welcome!
<hornbeck> ChrisH: all the repositories are by themselves now
<hornbeck> I will do a wiki write up tonight
<hornbeck> I am leaving for the day now though
<sivang> hornbeck : server is ready?
<hornbeck> sivang yes
<ChrisH> hornbeck: very good
<ChrisH> hornbeck: Let's try to migrate the contents when you are up again. :)
<hornbeck> I should be up
<Hoodster> This idea is to have someone (I will volunteer) to search the Ubuntu forums, and keep up on it, the HowTo forum would be suitable for transferring to Ubuntu Dcoumentation. ChrisH suggestion was to transfer some or all of this information to the new faq.
<Hoodster> Is there still an interest in doing this?
<hornbeck> well guys I am out
<hornbeck> email me if something does not work and I will try to get it fixed
<hornbeck> bye
<Hoodster> What I mean is that I have an interest and this would be something that could suite my skill level. I regularly visit the forums and would be happy to add information to the faq or some other site.
<Hoodster> Ubuntu page I mean.
<Hoodster> See yeah hornbeck.
<Hoodster> I don't want to make any specific suggestions now, because I suspect that there might be a lot of contributions already made that have not been updated to the repository. Is this correct?
<ChrisH> Not really. :)
<ChrisH> There have been two FAQ wiki pages on ubuntulinux.org. plovs and I have rearranged them into the docbook document.
<ChrisH> The FAQ has been started a few days ago (3 or 4) and we planned to upload the current version this weekend for letting other people review it.
<Hoodster> ChrisH: So, I noticed that the How do I install java is not complete. I know there is a HowTo at the forums and I have successfully installed java. However, I suspect that someone else might have completed this in the new FAQ. If not, then this might be a good place for me to start. What do you think?
<ChrisH> Hoodster: Yes, do that. plovs and I have commited our changes already. Even if not: just change what you think should be changed.
<ChrisH> Hoodster: There is no "chief editor". All contributions are welcome.
<Hoodster> ChrisH: Okay, I will do that (update the java). It will be a good starter.
<ChrisH> Hoodster: If you have questions about the docbook, then just ask.
<Hoodster> I know I am full of questions, but they keep on coming. The new FAQ has one level of subtopics (i.e., the actual questions). Will there more more sublevels? In other words, will the organization change much as the FAQ grows?
<ChrisH> plovs also asked about that. I think we should stay with sect1 and sect2 for the first. If you think that another sect1 category is needed - then add it.
<ChrisH> There are a few entries that don't fit really into either "installation" or "configuration". Perhaps this should be the same category anyway.
<ChrisH> Moving articles around is probably less work than writing it correctly.
<Hoodster> Agreed.
<Hoodster> I was also thinking that wouldn't it be useful to indicate which release of Ubuntu a particular page in the FAQ page applies or will there be completely different FAQ for the upcoming Hoary release?
<plovs_> Hoodster, yes, there will be different faq's or we will indicate which parts are outdated
<plovs_> ChrisH, so will we start using hornbeck's svn now or yours?
<plovs_> sivang, ping!
<sivang> plovs_ : pong!
<plovs_> how much have you worked on the gnamo-manual?
<sivang> I did alot of rebranding, fixed some desktop instructions etc..
<sivang> I more people last night wanting to help on that, I think hornbeck did not do any changes since my version..I need to check out his and compare to my version.
<plovs> sivang, some questions from the faq are answered in the gnome-doc -> gnome doc needs to be put on the web-site
<sivang> like what?
<plovs> html
<sivang> no, what questions ? ;)
<Hoodster> I noticed that there is text in the java section of the faq.xml file that does not show up. It seems this text is useful because it is a link of where an answer can be found. There is also a note to FAQ team members that also does not show up in the HTML file. Thus, it appears in the HTML file that java question was not answered, but I think it is. Am I doing something incorrectly?
<plovs> sivang, ah, duh, about changing background etc
<plovs> Hoodster, i had not yet made up my mind what to do with the java and mono-questions
<sivang> ok, when are we expecting to replace the current FF (Fine Faq) with the docbook produced one
<sivang> ?
<sivang> I will add those to the main faq, and then produce it and upload to the main faq
<sivang> it's a mess how it's now, I think we've alreayd agreed on that :)
<plovs> sivang, we have to finish it, sb should finish up the order and fix loose ends
<plovs> Hoodster, so those two questions still need to be answered
<Hoodster> plovs: Well, my two cents worth is that the link will be useful. As it stands now, nothing appears under the java, thus appearing incomplete. I think having something is better than nothing (hehe).
<Hoodster> plovs: Would it be okay if I modified that portion of the faq.xml?
<plovs> Hoodster, we try to keep the number of outsie links as low as possible, if you *need* an outside link for the answer then the answer is wrong
<plovs> Hoodster, logic: we want the faq in yelp for people without net-access (who will be upset if we have a lot of outside links)
<plovs> Hoodster, so we need a full java answer in the faq, but i have no java -> eg no answer
<Hoodster> plovs: No, I don't need an outside link. This is what I will do. I will add instructions that will set up the java as it appears here http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=3713 (I will give credit to this poster as well, if desired).
<Hoodster> I have followed those instructions and they work well I find.
<plovs> Hoodster, good, you work on john's or chris's svn?
<plovs> so we don't end up with 2 faqs
<Hoodster> plovs: ChrisH got me started on the faq.xml this morning. I assume I have something compatible with his. Does this sound correct?
<Hoodster> plovs: I can certainly understand the need to minimize the number of links when a link is used as the answer rather than posting the answer directly. What about posting the answer directly and then directing the reader to a link that provides additional information. I can see how this can be beneficial but also not wanted. Can you elaborate?
<plovs> Hoodster, preferably not, if somebody has web-access he will be able to find answers on the site
<plovs> you might add links remarked out though, and if we later change our mind, we can easily put it in
<Hoodster> plovs: Good suggestion
* sivang is out for reboot
<plovs> Hoodster, we'll slowly work out what works best ;-)
<plovs> sivang, many things have changed from 2.4/2.6 in gnome
<sivang> I was working with 2.8
<sivang> :)
<sivang> the manual , that is
<sivang> 2.8.1 to be more exact
<plovs> is that what john has in his repo?
<sivang> plovs : supposed to be, however I am not sure if he did any changes
<sivang> he didn't have time to work on it, IMHO
<plovs> sivang, what did you use as base?
<sivang> plovs : 2.8.1 guide
<plovs> could you send your stuff to me? in a tgz?
<Hoodster> Okay, I added the instructions to the faq.xml file, but they don't showup. I have a couple of choices: I can just add it in and let someone else make it show up. Alternaively, I can try to figure out how to make it show up now. Which is preferred?
<plovs> Hoodster did you upload the file?
<plovs> Hoodster, with svn ci? I would like to take a look
<sivang> plovs : are you going to put it into crish's snv repo?
<Hoodster> plovs: Not yet. I have no idea what this will look like. I inserted tags that I could figure out pretty quickly. However, I am there is the more formatting that I would like to do. However, it would be helpful know how it currently looks (hehe). I am unfamiliar with xml code, so I am figuring things out as I go along.
<Hoodster> plovs: Should I upload it now?
<plovs> sivang, it?? gnome-doc? faq?
<sivang> plovs : gnome-doc
<plovs> Hoodster, dcc it to me then, i'll diff it to my faq and walk you through it
<plovs> sivang, hornbeck has gnome-doc in his svn, but it doesn't yet work 100% (atm it is more MSsvn)
<plovs> Hoodster, it doen't want to work :-(
<sivang> ok, so ChrisH's
<sivang> then
<Hoodster> plovs: This is the first time I dcc in xchat. I probably don't have xchat setup correctly.
<plovs> Hoodster let me send you a file
<Hoodster> I think I know why dcc is not working. The 'DCC IP Address' in xchat is not filled in.
<plovs> Hoodster, DCC GET plovs ?
<plovs> Hoodster, send me again please
<Hoodster> DCC GET plovs
<Hoodster> Okay
<plovs> Hoodster, /DCC GET plovs
<plovs> sivang, could we maybe also try? dcc-ing is tricky sometimes
<Hoodster> plovs: I see three file requests and the status are 'connect', but the % doesn't change.
<plovs> Hoodster hmmm
<plovs> Hoodster, do you have in preferences, file transfers, get ip-address from serer ticked?
<Hoodster> plovs: one more try. I made a few changes.
<plovs> Hoodster, DCC RECV connect attempt to Hoodster failed (err=No route to host)
<plovs> Hoodster, try:  /DCC GET plovs
<Hoodster> plovs: I will try again.
<Hoodster> plovs: I have already initiated the dcc connect. It is thinking about it, but it isn't getting through.
<plovs> Hoodster, your ip=192.168.1.1 ?
<Hoodster> Sshhhh (hehe)
<Hoodster> I am trying to see what works.
<Hoodster> This is tough.
<Hoodster> hehe
<plovs> Hoodster, do you have in preferences, file transfers, get ip-address from serer ticked?
<Hoodster> What File Transfer setting should I be using in xchat?
<Hoodster> plovs: I just changed it to that.
<Hoodster> The send ports in xchat are empty. Do these to be filled?
<plovs> Hoodster, no, that is speed stuff
<plovs> Hoodster, you only need to tick all the tick boxes afaik
<plovs> sivang, can you help?
<sivang> sorry, busy with something else, didn't see what went here. Help with what?
<Hoodster> plovs: I ticked all the boxes at the bottom, even the 'Save nickname in filenames'
<plovs> sivang, can you dcc me something?
<sivang> ah ofcours! I am so sorry alex
<Hoodster> What port is this information going over? Could I be blocking it. Right now, I only send traffic over port 80
<sivang> I will try, see if my firewall does that.
<plovs> not working either...
<plovs> sivang, can you send to hoodster?
<Hoodster> I am offering the file to sivang, see if it works.
<plovs> sivang try:  /DCC GET plovs
<plovs> Hoodster, sivang this is not such a smashing succes i must say
<plovs> Hoodster can you just mail it to me then?
<Hoodster> plovs: I know, I am thinking that my firewall is blocking.
<plovs> or mine
<plovs> or both
<plovs> or all three
<sivang> plovs : I will put it somewhere the web, and you could download it
<sivang> :(
<sivang> sorry
<plovs> sivang, just mail it
<Hoodster> plovs: quick question. I got a message stating 'faq.xml from 7512. Is the 7512 a port?
<sivang> plovs : already tried that :(
<sivang> I have a very bad upstream
<plovs> sivang, you have a password to john's svn?
<Hoodster> If that is the port, then I know that I must open it up because my firewall will block it.
<Hoodster> plov: yes, I can email it to you.
<plovs> Hoodster, try to open the port, who knows
<plovs> Hoodster, alexander.poslavsky AT gmail.com
<sivang> anyway guys, I am having some very bad network problem on top of everything else...
<sivang> I am going for some network maintainance
<sivang> see you in a couple of hours..:(
<plovs> sivang, ok! see ya!
<plovs> Hoodster, you have a password to hornbeck's svn?
<alan__> plovs: I am reading the xchat FAQ and the dcc may not have worked because I had not restarted xchat, which appears to be required after setting the File Transfer setting.
<plovs> alan__, i'll restart as well, brb
<plovs> ok, let's try again
<plovs> alan__, can't connect
<plovs> ip addresses look ok now
<plovs> Hoodster, either upload it to svn under a different name or mai lit
<ChrisH> Hoodster: what is the exact message?
<plovs> ChrisH, (err=Connection timed out) or no route to host
<alan__> ChrisH: There really is no message. The DCC just times out. No data is sent or received.
<plovs> ChrisH, can i send you something to test?
<ChrisH> Ah. Okay. :)
<ChrisH> plovs: sure
<alan__> plov: I will up load with a slightly different name.
<plovs> ChrisH, ok, waiting
<plovs> alan__, on what server?
<plovs> ChrisH, ? doesn't work 
<ChrisH> 18:03  plovs GET: 0B of 611kB (0%) - 0.00kB/s - ETA (stalled) - boxes4.jpg
<ChrisH> plovs: I'm not not sure where it is... I think it's hanging
<alan__> plovs: not sure what server. I attempted a svn ci filename.xml and it did not work. It said that this file is not under version control.
<ChrisH> Hoodster: did you add the file you wanted to upload? like "svn add filename.xml"?
<plovs> Hoodster, :-) svn add ... -> then -> svn ci
<Hoodster> ChrisH plovs: no, I will do that now.
<plovs> ChrisH, time-out error
<Hoodster> plovs ChrisH: I did the svn ci and I get a --This line, and those below, will be ignored--, what do I do to get back to a prompt. I don't know vi.
<plovs> esc - : wq
<plovs> first type something with i  <my message>
<plovs> so: i<my message><esq>wq
<Hoodster> plovs: I am now at a prompt that asks me about a log message and the options abort, continue or edit, which should I choose?
<plovs> abort and try again
<Hoodster> plovs: I didn't quite undertand the i <my message> part. When do I do this? Before press Esc key?
<plovs> press the i, type your message, press escape, press w, press q
<Hoodster> What message am I typing?
<plovs> I am hoodster i am a very cool guy, or anything else you think is important to later understand you did
<Hoodster> plovs: I added the message (a bit different though). It is now asking me for a password. What do I enter?
<plovs> what server are you working on? 
<Hoodster> plovs: I have no idea. ChrisH set me up.
<plovs> did ChrisH give you a pasword?
<Hoodster> ChrisH: Can you help?
<Hoodster> plov: I don't recall if he did or didn't.
<plovs> Hoodster, ChrisH might be offline atm, just send it by mail for now
<Hoodster> ChrisH: How do I do that?
<Hoodster> plovs: How do I do that?
<plovs> Hoodster, mail the doc you wrote to me as attachement
<Hoodster> plovs: What I mean is... Where do I find your email addresses? Are they at the Ubuntu website? I need a bit of orienting.
<plovs> https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/AlexanderPoslavsky
<plovs> alexander.poslavsky AT gmail.com
<Hoodster> Okay, I think i found it. It is at the top of the FAQ page.
<plovs> yes also :-)
<Hoodster> plovs: I just sent it.
<plovs> Hoodster, ok, got it
<plovs> Hoodster, where did you make your changes
<Hoodster> plovs: To the java section near the bottom.
<Hoodster> plovs: I get to it quickly by doing a find for "How to install java"
<Hoodster> plovs: I don't quite understand why the text does not show up. Is there a simple explanation? hehe
<plovs> Hoodster, yes, you missed a couple of characters ;-)
<Hoodster> plovs: Please educate me. Which ones? Useful info for me.
<plovs> Hoodster, just send it
<plovs> be back in a while
* ChrisH bows before the holy secretary
<enrico> Ehi!
<enrico> The only holy thing here is the Cow! :)
<enrico> apt-get moo
<cenerentola> enrico:
<enrico> cenerentola: ? :)
<plovs> hi enrico
<plovs> Hoodster, well?
<enrico> hi plovs !
<cenerentola> sorry ppl but ill hijack enrico for a while
<Hoodster> plovs: sorry for not responding, however, I have made signficant progress!
<Hoodster> plovs: Can I send you my updated java portion now via email?
<Hoodster> To All: I added a new file to the repository (if there is more than one, not sure which, hehe). This new file is called faq_hoodster.xml and contains updated portion on how to install java. I will be signing off for now, but I look forward to doing more work.
<WW> Hello world.
<Hoodster> Hey ww
<WW> Hello again.
* ChrisH waves to WW
<WW> I was going to check out the faq and experiment with xml, but "svn co http://169.155.172.150/faq" didn't work.
<ChrisH> The FAQ is currently at http://ubuntu.workaround.org:8080/faq
<WW> OK, I'll try that.  I got the other command from the mailing list.
<ChrisH> It is 69 - not 169. And we will probably move the current archive there in the next days. John hat some trouble with his server so the respository is still on my server.
<plovs> ChrisH, does ssh work now to john's server?
<WW> ChrisH: Ah, that was an IRC typo; I used 69 when I gave the command.
<ChrisH> plovs: haven't tried
<ChrisH> plovs: Just tried. Nope. Same error.
<plovs> ChrisH, could you take a look at what i wrote to the mailing-list? i would like to get everybodies opiniion on it
<ChrisH> plovs: Just read it.
<ChrisH> plovs: IIRC sivang was about to create a proper todo list. I don't like the Wiki approach that much as information is spread throughout the whole site.
<ChrisH> plovs: We surely need more information for both writers and translators.
<ChrisH> plovs: There will be probably an increasing number of people joining here and just asking "how can I help?"
<plovs> ChrisH, that's why we need a proper answer for them, using those pages we have
<ChrisH> plovs: IMHO all *organised* parts should be in DocBook. May it be the FAQ or whatever is to come.
<ChrisH> plovs: The Wiki is a good place to plan the conference or to lists download mirrors.
<plovs> ChrisH, i agree all real docs in docbook, i have been reading the docbook-book (partly) and really like it
<plovs> i like the wiki for docs in progress
* ChrisH nods
<plovs> and working with docbook was surprisingly fast i must say
<ChrisH> plovs: It just looks ugly. :)
<plovs> only <screen> does, it really bugs me it does not line up
<plovs> ChrisH why did you use article for the faq and not book?
<ChrisH> No reason really. Is book better suited?
<plovs> a book might be easier to cut in pieces, and subdivide
<plovs> the faq is getting quite long
<ChrisH> plovs: Ah, now I remember. <article> is what yelp expects.
<plovs> hmm, the gnome docs are book afaik, no?
* ChrisH checks
<ChrisH> http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gdp/templates.html
<ChrisH> It's either <legalnotice> or <article>
<plovs> look in yelp desktop, userguide, it looks like <book>
* plovs tries to find xml
<ChrisH> plovs: I don't know for sure really. But you can use <sect1> <sect2> <sect3> in both. You could try out how the XHTML looks for a <book>
<plovs> /usr/share/gnome/help/user-guide/C/user-guide.xml
<plovs> is book, well the only difference i liked is the index on the left, we could add morecategories, would be a lot of work maybe
<plovs> but i do not know enough about docbook to say anything more
<ChrisH> plovs: In yelp that leads to a TOC with more levels! That would be great.
<ChrisH> plovs: Shall I convert it to book?
<plovs> try!
<ChrisH> go, go, go... :)
<ChrisH> Hmm. The TOC is gone in the XHTML output. Why that?
<plovs> ChrisH, if you look at /usr/share/gnome/help/user-guide/C/gosbasic.xml you'll see all what we call <sect1> is called chapter
<ChrisH> It does not appear as a chapter on html so...
<plovs> maybe s/sect1/chapter/g and s/sect2/sect1/g ??
<ChrisH> ah... i see...
<ChrisH> probably... I'll try
<WW> Hey, I've been experimenting with adding an index to the faq.
<WW> In html, it works well.
<WW> I mean the html output.
<ChrisH> WW: which xsl params did you set for that?
<WW> None.  I'm editing faq.xml
<ChrisH> WW: A manual TOC?
<plovs> ChrisH, no a ReST TOC
<plovs> ChrisH, very nice btw
<ChrisH> Huh? What now? FAQ? ReST? TOC?
* ChrisH is confused
<WW> Take a look:  http://math.colgate.edu/~wweckesser/faq.html   Scroll down to "Index"
<WW> I don't know why Index doesn't show up in the ToC
<ChrisH> WW: nice
<ChrisH> But how do you do a TOC in a <book>? That's the question.
<WW> Oh, I see what you were asking... it's not a ToC, it's an index that I added.
<ChrisH> Did you use <book>?
<ggi> Is anybody running Hoary here? There seem to be problems with yelp.
<WW> No, article.  I just added <index /> at the end, and then added lots of <indexterm><primary>keyword</primary></indexterm>
<trickie> ggi, i am
<ChrisH> WW: I also did that in <article>. But <book> seems to be suited better. I'm working on it having a TOC, too.
<WW> ChrisH: Does book use the same keywords for the index? (I hope so.)
<ChrisH> WW: I'm pretty sure it does.
<trickie> ggi, i cannot load any docbook xml files with yelp
<WW> If you like the index, I'd be happy to commit it.
<ChrisH> WW: It looks a bit... chaotic... with the long strings.
<ggi> trickie: Yeah, neither can I. I was trying to look through the GNOME docs.
* ChrisH swears on his .xsl file
<sivang> hey ggi
<sivang> trickie
<sivang> all
<sivang> :)
<sivang> network up again :)
<ChrisH> sivang: Back from getting cookies? :)
<ggi> hi sivang
<WW> ChrisH: That's the default for the index... It uses the question.  I think if the output were a printed book, they would be page numbers.
<sivang> ChrisH : I got back from that already, had network done after ...didn't I tell you about it ? :)
<sivang> arghh
<sivang> down
<ChrisH> WW: Perhaps we can fine-tune that?
<sivang> not 'done'
<ChrisH> sivang: Not really. :)
<WW> ChrisH: I suspect tweaking xsl parameters would help, but I'm not sure which ones, or how to do that.
<ChrisH> Ah! :)
<ChrisH> Found it... :)
<trickie> sivang, hello!
<sivang> Hi Trickie! At least I'm catching you new comers at a reasonable time :)
<trickie> ChrisH, http://www.sagehill.net/docbookxsl/TOCcontrol.html - talks about TOC parameters for XSL
<trickie> sivang, yeah... what is the time in your part of the world?
<ChrisH> trickie: Thanks. That's the page I'm on currently. ;)
<trickie> ChrisH, awesome!
<ChrisH> Problem was: if there is a <sect1> but no <chapter> then no TOC will be generated. Argh.
<sivang> 0:30am
<sivang> :)
<sivang> but last night it was around 6:00am, after a sleepless night 
<trickie> sivang, 9.30am sunday morn here... nice and fresh-faced
<sivang> where you at?
<plovs> ChrisH, i found it
<ChrisH> Okay... works.
<ChrisH> I've just checked in a version of <book> with a changed .xsl definition file that generates a TOC.
<trickie> sivang, melbourne australia
<ChrisH> Check it out and check for yourself. :)
<ChrisH> I just wonder why 'yelp' hangs on the faq.xml file. :(
<plovs> ChrisH, ok! i'll check it out
<sivang> ah! you could go to the sydney lug!
<sivang> it looks like one of the nicest LUGs on earth :)
<sivang> People, what is in the works currently? still on the faq?
<ChrisH> Sure
<WW> Hmm... the Index shows up in the ToC in yelp, but the actual index page is blank.
<ChrisH> WW: I didn't yet include an index.
<WW> ChrisH: That was about my copy... I haven't updated anything.
<ChrisH> WW: ah, ok, sorry
* WW talks to himself now and then...
<trickie> ChrisH, works for me! I still can't load anything in yelp, but the html output looks nice
<ChrisH> trickie: Cool.
<ChrisH> The FAQ seems to become really large. We should chunk it into multiple pages. I'll try that tomorrow.
<ChrisH> If you don't mind I'll go napping.
<trickie> ggi, do you know if there is a bug report for what is happenning in yelp?
<sivang> there is,
<sivang> you talk about the 'document could not be process" ?
<trickie> sivang, cool
<sivang> I am already talking about it with yelp
<sivang> 's author, the amazing shaun mckane
<sivang> :)
<sivang> McKane
<trickie> sivang, ok... i get a xsl import error
<ggi> trickie: bug number 3557
* ChrisH is curious how long the FAQ will be when he gets up again
<trickie> sivang, i'll have a look
<sivang> yes that's the one
<sivang> so FAQ is the main work now?
<trickie> ChrisH, i can have a look at chunking it if you wan
<ChrisH> trickie: Yes, thanks.
* ChrisH is out
<ggi> Is there anything in svn for the FAQ yet? I don't seem to be getting anything.
<plovs> ChrisH, I'm chopping it up right now (the faq)
<trickie> ggi, it is in ChrisH's svn... http://ubuntu.workaround.org:8080/faq
<trickie> ggi, svn co http://ubuntu.workaround.org:8080/faq
<ggi> Thanks trickie
<sivang> plovs : seen your mail
<plovs> sivang, it's partly what we already spoke about
<sivang> yes I noticed...I am also going to *finally* add the goals list to HoaryHedgod page
<plovs> sivang, :-)
<plovs> sivang, please comment!
<sivang> ah,, on the way!! :)
<sivang> sorry for all my delays this weekend
<plovs> sivang, how the  network? solved?
<sivang> yes, for the time being :((
<sivang> took me off for abour 2 hours, after which I had to go out to arrange some stuff
<sivang> about 20 router reboots, one cable guy, and one cable singnal meter..
<sivang> hopefully the gnome manual is going to be uploaded to ChrisH's svn server..
<plovs> sivang, all's well that ends well
<sivang> yes, however only for the time being. from my experience, when it starts , it keep bugging for about a week, after which things stabialize, then off to more 9 months without a problem, till 'see you next time!' :-/
#ubuntu-doc 2004-11-25
<plovs> sivang, that's networking for ye!
<WW> Argh... anyone who writes more than 5 lines of XSLT code without comments should be taken out and... well, I won't say what horrible punishments they should suffer.
<sivang> shot on site, as they like to say on #debian
<sivang> :)
<WW> (Just to be clear... my previous comment was triggered while reading autoidx.xsl and other DocBook xsl files, not by something written by someone here :)
<plovs> yes, got the faq in book form, with index etc, looks really good!
* sivang is working on the yelp bug..seems it has something to do with packaging
<sivang> :)
<plovs> what yelp bug?
<sivang> https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=3653
<plovs> sivang, your running hoary?
<sivang> ye
<sivang> yes :-(
<ggi> sivang: It's not that bad, surely?
<sivang> :)
<sivang> kidding
<sivang> well not, but many things break occasinally, and it's worse then sid, because ubuntu is advancing much faster :)
<ggi> Though I do see what you meant about Evolution being a bit... unstable.
<WW> plovs: By "index", do you mean index or Table of Contents.
<WW> ?
<sivang> evo tends to crash
<sivang> thank god for mutt
* ggi clicks randomly on Evolution... *boom*
<sivang> :)
<sivang> ggi, I am preparing the gnome-user-manual repo btw
<sivang> so shortly, anyone interested would be able to do work on it
<ggi> Well, as I said, I'm kind of busy with essays right now, but in a week or so I'll be able to start properly.
<ggi> Speaking of which, I'm off to drink sugary stimulant drinks and write some essays. Bye all!
<plovs> WW, table of contents
<plovs> sivang, still awake?
<sivang> plovs : yes buddy, present and accountet for :)
<sivang> got my mail?
<plovs> could you do an svn up in ChrisH svn?
<sivang> up the /C folder of the gnome manual?
<sivang> what's the address again?
<sivang> svn.work... ?
<plovs> looking
<sivang> did it
<sivang> it 'just worked'
<plovs>  http://ubuntu.workaround.org:8080/faq
<sivang> strange
<sivang> configuration.xml  faq_hoodster.xml   Makefile   part3.xml  trouble.xml  unsorted.xml
<sivang> contributing.xml   faq.xml            part1.xml  README     ubuntu.xml
<sivang> faq-guide.xml      install-issue.xml  part2.xml  test.xml   ubuntu.xsl
<sivang> this is what I got
<plovs> try faq-guide.xml
<plovs> yelp faq-guide.xml
<plovs> or is your yelp still dead
<sivang> dead, I will have to have it from cvs
<sivang> I will grab one form warty
<plovs> i asked ogra t otest it as well
<sivang> nice
<sivang> have some stranege idents
<plovs> sivang, still needs a lot of work, the faq
<plovs> but a bunch of small ones is easier
<sivang> this is after the devision to small files?
<sivang> ok, obvisously there is something I want to fix right away
<plovs> faq-guide.xml is yes
<sivang> it says "GNOME 2.8 desktop guide"
<sivang> haha
<sivang> going to change it,
<sivang> how do I commit my changes afterwards?
<plovs> that's where i ripped it from
<plovs> svn ci
<sivang> the templates?
<sivang> all in all looks very promising
<plovs> i hope this is what our docs will be like
<plovs> did you update?
<sivang> not yet, still looking at it
<sivang> so the old faq.xml is obsolete by now?
<plovs> yes, it has been cut in pieces
<plovs> sivang, what kind of packages are you planning to make?
<plovs> from your mail
<Hoodster> Hi guys, I am back for a bit to do a bit more work on the FAQ. A quick question. What exactly does the 'honorific' refer to exactly?
<plovs> Hoodster, hi!
<plovs> Hoodster, no idea
<Hoodster> plovs: Hi, What does Dipl.-Inform mean? (hehe)
<plovs> Hoodster, check out the faq from the repo with svn up
<plovs> Hoodster, dressed diplomats?
<plovs> :-)
<plovs> Hoodster, i cut the faq in smaller pieces
<plovs> Hoodster you'll have to put your changes in by hand
<Hoodster> plovs: okay
<plovs> sivang, what is NM work?
<hornbeck> hey plovs
<hornbeck> can you readd the faq stuff to the svn server
<plovs> hornbeck, hi! sure
<hornbeck> ok
<hornbeck> did you see the address change?
<hornbeck> 69.155.172.150/faq
<plovs> hornbeck my password fails
<plovs> oh, let's try the address
<plovs> no, password refused
<Hoodster> Hey guys, I am having trouble opening the new (just updated) faq.xml file with gedit. Is there something I am doing wrong?
<Hoodster> What I mean by updated is that I did a svn up command
<plovs> Hoodster mkdir old ; mv * old (in the correct dir) ; svn up
<sivang> plovs : ubuntu-docs package would contain all our production quality docs that we want to have available offline, like the faq, STJ , FirstSteps etc.. would install this docs in an appropriate place, and call up the scrollkeeper thingy to register all the docs.
<plovs> sivang, super!
<plovs> Hoodster, ok?
<Hoodster> plovs: No, However, I spoke incorrectly. The problem I am having is with yelp. Yelp crashes when opening faq.xml. Is this expected?
<sivang> plovs : I inted to also maintain other software that relates to docs, yelp on of them. :)
<plovs> Hoodster, if faq.xml is not correct then yes it is suposed to do it, try yelp from Applications
<plovs> sivang, nice, so you yelp-maintainer, we want search! now! :-)
<Hoodster> plovs: Please forgive me, but I don't understand 'yelp from applications'. What does this mean? hehe
<sivang> haha! Well, if I through yet another feature request at shaunm, he would just make me a yelp hacker..he has this inent :)
<Hoodster> plovs: I don't see yelp in the application menu. I think this is what was meant, but I don't see it.
<plovs> you can run yelp by pressing the application-menu in the left upper corner of the screen
<plovs> Hoodster, it's called help
<plovs> sivang, would be nice to have though
<plovs> Hoodster, does it work?
<sivang> plovs : yes, I think he's working on something that would be done by hoary's release, that is gnome 2.10
<plovs> sivang, good
<plovs> sivang, did you install a backported yelp, yet? or not today?
<hornbeck> going for dinner
<sivang> plovs : installed yelp from warty, yes.
<sivang> but I am now going to test the fix I think I have for the current bug
<plovs> ok, hornbeck needs to do that as well i suppose
<plovs> Hoodster, well? does it work?
<Hoodster> LOl, I am getting confused, but loving it. However, my confusion might be clearing. What will running Help help me (hehe). I did launch 'Help' from the Applications menu, but I can't tell it to open a specific file.
<plovs> Hoodster, but it works?
<Hoodster> plovs: Oh, yes, the Help program does work.
<plovs> then faq.xml is broken
<plovs> Hoodster, try: svn checkout http://69.155.172.150/faq (in another folder)
<Hoodster> plovs: For instance, I can successfully run 'yelp trouble.xml'
<plovs> yelp faq-guide.xml
<Hoodster> plovs: That did the trick!
<trickie> sivang, how could i install the wart version of yelp?
<trickie> sivang, i am currently running hoary
<trickie> and i just can't seem to get yelp running
<plovs> sivang, trickie, put it in the wiki as well!
<sivang> I am using a dirty workaround,
<sivang> I changed my /etc/apt/sources.list lines to have 'warty' instead of 'hoary'
<sivang> then, apt-get update
<sivang> apt-get remove yelp
<sivang> apt-get install yelp
<sivang> and I have the warty version...
<sivang> but this comes without warranty :)
<trickie> yeah
<trickie> i might just wait... the rest of my haory install works well
<trickie> hoary rather
<trickie> i don't have access to the svn repos, but i have a change to the ubuntu.xsl file in the FAQ that chunks the 'book' up into multiple files
<trickie> should i just send a diff out on the mailing-list?
<plovs> trickie, sure, that would be good
<plovs> sivang, you can do this with pinning as well
<Hoodster> Hi guys! I made a few more additions to the java section of the install-issue.xml file. I am ready to upload. Should I give it a go? I did not change the file name this time.
<plovs> do you have a password?
<Hoodster> plovs: Yes, thanks to ChrisH.
<plovs> Hoodster, sure, try it
<plovs> Hoodster, well?
<Hoodster> plovs: I tried it and I got the message 'commit failed (details follow)' then 'MKACTIVITY of /faq/.....
<Hoodster> plovs: Not sure if it worked.
<plovs> failed is always bad...
<plovs> Hoodster, you only changed install-issue.xml, right?
<Hoodster> plovs: No, I also changed the faq-guide.xml by adding my name to the author list. 
<Hoodster> plovs: Do I have to upload both files at once?
<plovs> ok, copy those two files somewhere safe, rm * in the faq dir and do svn up, then copy paste your changes back in
<plovs> i also made changes, maybe that is why it did not work
<sivang> plovs : pinning?
<plovs> sivang, http://jaqque.sbih.org/kplug/apt-pinning.html
<plovs> sivang, http://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/apt-howto/ch-apt-get.en.html 3.10
<Hoodster> plovs: No that did not work. I will go ahead and email the files.
<plovs> Hoodster, no wait
<plovs> Hoodster did you do svn up?
<sivang> plovs : you use pinning?
<sivang> plovs : and the second doc I didn't see where it talks about it too.
<plovs> sivang, i used to on debian
<sivang> plovs : ah nice, we should modify this for ubuntu also :)
<Hoodster> plovs: Yes I did, I did do svn up
<plovs> you use pinning if you want debs from woody and sarge
<plovs> Hoodster, now just open the files and copy/paste your changes back in, then svn ci
<sivang> anyway, am headed to bed, night all!
<Hoodster> plovs: I did exactly that....
<plovs> sivang, night!
<Hoodster> Night sivang!
<sivang> night fellow doccers !
<plovs> Hoodster, and what did svn ci do?
<trickie> night sivang 
<Hoodster> plovs: First, it asked me to add a message. I did that. Then, it asked me for a password, but it defaults to my local login name, but that is not correct. So, I simply press enter. It asks me for a username, so I type the name that ChrisH gave me. Then it asks for the password, which I type it in. Then, strangely, it asks for the username and password again. Then the fault error message.
<plovs> what if you type the password after your login name?
<Hoodster> plovs: I did that once and I recall that svn kicks back to the cursor with a difference error message (can't remember exactly what it was though).
<plovs> Hoodster, just mail the diff then, i'll put it in
<Hoodster> plovs: Okay, I sure wish I could get it to work. I wonder if my username and password is no longer current. Was there a major change earlier in the day? Just trying to think of all possibilities.
<plovs> Hoodster, we have been using svn only a couple of days, my password at hornbeck does not work either :( 
<plovs> later it will be ok
<plovs> i hope
<Hoodster> plovs: I sent it. 
<plovs> got it
<Hoodster> plovs: I have a question. I was wondering if it would be desirable to add to the top of the install-issue.xml file that not only does the page increase ones skill in installing apps, but it will increase the functionality of the OS. My point is that it is more than just an educational exercise. A minor consideration I know.
<Hoodster> plovs: oops! I just re-read that page and it doesn't seem to have the beginning statement about skill.
<Hoodster> plovs: One last question and then I will stop for a few days (hehe). Will there be a way to search the FAQ?
<trickie> plovs, you get my patch on the mailing-list?
<plovs> Hoodster, sivang said they are working on it for 2.10
<trickie> plovs, i initially sent it from the wrong address
<Hoodster> Plovs: Thanks.
<plovs> trickie, yep, on the doc-list
<plovs> trickie, thanks
<plovs> Hoodster, how many changes did you make?
<plovs> i added your name and java
<Hoodster> Plovs: Not much. That was all. Just the section under java and the name.
<Hoodster> plovs: Actually, there is quite a bit to the java section, but it all in consecutive lines, so it is an easy cut-n-paste.
<plovs> Hoodster, ok, do svn up and check it out!
<plovs> dedicated to the hoodster
<George^Deka> hi all, so lots been happening while i have been away i see
<Hoodster> plovs: Thanks for the recognition! However, when I did a complete checkout, I don't see the added java section. Perhaps I am checking out from a different repository?
<Hoodster> Hi George^Deka!
<Hoodster> plovs: I sorry, but I gots to get some sleep. 
<plovs> George^Deka, hi
<George^Deka> hi hoodster, plovs 
<George^Deka> so how to i setup svn access, i have never used svn or the like
<plovs> George^Deka, https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/SubVersion
<plovs> goodnight all
<trickie> good night plovs 
<trickie> hello George^Deka 
<trickie> well i am outta here also...
<trickie> take it easy guys
<George^Deka> chrish: noticed your subversion wiki page does not have how to install svn for repo users
<George^Deka> i take it that it is -- apt-get install subversion ??? just for the end user stuff
<hornbeck> sudo apt-get install subversion
<hornbeck> yes
<George^Deka> thought so, was just thinking there may have been sep packages for client and host
<hornbeck> nope
<hornbeck> all the same package
<George_Deka> i cant get svn to work, what is the repo ?
<hornbeck> what are you trying to pull?
<hornbeck> the faq?
<George_Deka> yep
<George_Deka> hornbeck: yep the faq
<hornbeck> svn co http://69.155.172.150/faq
<hornbeck> that will pull it down for you
<George_Deka> thanks
<hornbeck> no problem
<hornbeck> hey
<George^Deka> hey hornbeck
<hornbeck> whats going on?
<hornbeck> I am off to bed, goodnight
<George^Deka> cya all
<sivang> morning!
<sivang> anybody awake? 
<ChrisH> hi...
* ChrisH has a terrible headache...
<sivang> Hey Chris, I've also risen up today feeling mostly unwell, what will be the end of this flues...
<ChrisH> No idea. A coworker also told about that. Perhaps I shouldn't have gone to the gym on friday. :(
<plovs> ???? ???????
<plovs> oj, good morning
<plovs> ChrisH, did you checkout thefaq?
<ChrisH> Jau
<ChrisH> Even the patch from Nick Loeve...
<plovs> so what do you think doing it like this? all in little pieces?
<plovs> what about the divisions?
<plovs> more/less?
<plovs> i find it easier to work on smaller docs 
<plovs> ChrisH, what about hornbeck's svn? i can't upload to it anymore, i could yesterday, once?
<plovs> ChrisH, i'll continue using yours until this is sorted out
<ChrisH> plovs: Yes, I sorted that out with hornbeck already. We are using my repository until everything works fine there.
<plovs> ChrisH, ok
<ChrisH> plovs: I'm completely happy with the chunks like this.
<plovs> ChrisH, do you have axperience with glosterm entries?
<ChrisH> Not really.
<plovs> ChrisH, i'll ask enrico then, i added a glossary, and would like to cross-link
<plovs> Hoodster, hi!
<Hoodster> Hi Plovs
<plovs> Hoodster, you might ask for a password from chris then you can apply yourself
<Hoodster> I am about to leave for my business trip, but I wanted to come back and congratulate you and the rest of the doc team on the great work being done on the FAQ
<Hoodster> plovs: I will do that before I leave. I take it that the username/password might have changed, thus I am no longer authenticated. When I do a svn up, nothing is updated and it returns At revision 2 message. It could also be that nothing new has been uploaded. Not sure which.
<plovs> Hoodster, you might be looking at the wrong address, we still use  http://ubuntu.workaround.org:8080/faq
<plovs> Hoodster, At revision 43. it should say
<Hoodster> plovs: Okay, I will do a full check out.
<plovs> ChrisH, did you ever look at trac? http://www.edgewall.com/trac/
<ChrisH> plovs:  not yet
<Hoodster> plovs: I did a full checkout but the yelp does not like the faq.xml file. It crashes for some reason. It is at revision 43.
<plovs> Hoodster, faq-guide
<plovs> Hoodster, ?
<Hoodster> plovs: That is not what is checked out.
<Hoodster> From the ubuntu.workaround.org url
<plovs> Hoodster, svn checkout http://ubuntu.workaround.org:8080/faq
<plovs> should give you:
<plovs> [white 149]  faq > svn ls
<plovs> IconUbuntu.png
<plovs> Makefile
<plovs> README
<plovs> configuration.xml
<plovs> contributing.xml
<plovs> faq-guide.xml
<plovs> faq.xml
<plovs> faq_hoodster.xml
<plovs> glossary.xml
<plovs> install-issue.xml
<plovs> part1.xml
<plovs> part2.xml
<plovs> part3.xml
<plovs> test.xml
<plovs> trouble.xml
<plovs> ubuntu.xml
<plovs> ubuntu.xsl
<plovs> unsorted.xml
<Hoodster> A  faq/ubuntu.xml
<Hoodster> A  faq/part1.xml
<Hoodster> A  faq/part2.xml
<Hoodster> A  faq/ubuntu.xsl
<Hoodster> A  faq/part3.xml
<Hoodster> A  faq/install-issue.xml
<Hoodster> A  faq/README
<Hoodster> A  faq/faq-guide.xml
<Hoodster> A  faq/glossary.xml
<Hoodster> A  faq/unsorted.xml
<Hoodster> A  faq/contributing.xml
<Hoodster> A  faq/faq.xml
<Hoodster> A  faq/configuration.xml
<Hoodster> A  faq/trouble.xml
<Hoodster> A  faq/faq_hoodster.xml
<Hoodster> A  faq/Makefile
<Hoodster> A  faq/test.xml
<Hoodster> A  faq/IconUbuntu.png
<Hoodster> plovs: I try again.
<plovs> Hoodster, ok, now cd faq ; yelp faq-guide.xml
<Hoodster> plovs: It works now!
<plovs> Hoodster, ok!
<Hoodster> plovs: I will try the upload
<Hoodster> The upload seemed to work that time.
<Hoodster> hehe
<Hoodster> I got both files to upload. It seems working now.
<plovs> Hoodster, ok, now you can start working on the normal faq
<plovs> Hoodster, we will use faq-guide.xml and all files it references
<Hoodster> plovs: Okay, I won't be available until Tuesday evening. I hope I can contribute then.
<plovs> Hoodster, great!
<Hoodster> plovs: I have to go now. I feel like I have accomplished something, with your and Chris's help. Thank you so much. I have done only a little bit, but hope to do more.
<Hoodster> Have a good time all!
<sivang> I have a fixed pacakge for yelp,
<sivang> could people help me test?
<sivang> this fixes all navigational problems, still a problem is there when you click the 'title page' on the left side
<plovs> sivang, i can help, but in a ouple of hours, i'm of shopping
<plovs> couple
<sivang> plovs : ok, gemme you email, I'll send you the .deb there
<plovs> alexander.poslavsky AT gmail.com
<sivang> plovs : you still able to reproduce that bug?
<hornbeck> ChrisH, plovs: either of you around?
<hornbeck> sivang: you here?
<ChrisH> hornbeck: jau...
<hornbeck> I borked the passwd file on the server
<ChrisH> hornbeck: eek
<hornbeck> I was using the -c everytime with htpasswd2
<hornbeck> so it would overwrite the whole thing
<ChrisH> :)
<hornbeck> Sooooooo, I need everyone's passwords again :-)
<hornbeck> everything else is fine, I am able to commit locally now
<ChrisH> hornbeck: Nothing in the backup? ;)
<hornbeck> I borked it right before last night's back up
<hornbeck> so I am backing up twice a day now
<ChrisH> then it will probably break three times a day :)
<hornbeck> yeah
<hornbeck> how often do you do backups?
<ChrisH> I use afbackup with an incremental once a day and full once a week (at 4:30 CET).
<hornbeck> ok, so I am not doing it wrong with a twice a day
<ChrisH> Every quarter I run a full backup of core parts (documents, emails, repositories, web site) on DVD.
<ChrisH> Once a day should be completely sufficient.
<ChrisH> That reminds me... I should retire the current set of DAT tapes before they break.
<hornbeck> I must say, running a server is fun, but alot more work than I thought
<ChrisH> Indeed. Security. Configuration. Users...
<hornbeck> I never gave you guys the credit you deserve
<hornbeck> Do you run Hoary?
<ChrisH> :)
<ChrisH> No
<hornbeck> yelp seems to be broken
<ChrisH> hornbeck: What about the DNS entry? A repository with just an IP address is boring. :)
<hornbeck> haha
<hornbeck> do you have access to dns?
<hornbeck> I have not gotten that far in figuring things out yet :-)
<ChrisH> DNS is really weird. I already offered a hostname in the .workaround.org domain.
<hornbeck> I have opensoftdesign.org
<hornbeck> how would I make subdomains
<hornbeck> like faq.opensoftdesign.org
<hornbeck> or gnome-docs.opensoftdesign.org
<hornbeck> those are really long though
<ChrisH> Is the DNS server running on your machine?
<hornbeck> no
<hornbeck> good god, I have to learn DNS now to :-)
<ChrisH> Don't mean to scare you but DNS is a little tricky
<hornbeck> I am sure I could get it
<ChrisH> Who is authoritative for that domain? Cause if it's your ISP you either need to change the domain information or at least set up a hidden primary server.
<hornbeck> I set them up at freebsdportal.com
<hornbeck> like three years ago
<hornbeck> I used to have off site hosting
<ChrisH> If you can let others do the DNS stuff. It can break a lot of things. And without a decent secondary server a single line problem can make the domain "unknown".
<hornbeck> ahh
<ChrisH> It took me quite a while to get it working. And as you remember just a week ago the secondary server failed which already cause a little chaos.
<ChrisH> I've lost countless mails in the beginning until everything was set up fine.
<hornbeck> man
<ChrisH> If it wouldn't be such a hassle I'd probably do hidden-primary again.
<hornbeck> I will have to research it
<ChrisH> Have someone near you who is a little familiar with bind.
<hornbeck> I could not get subversion working till I sat down and read a good deal of docs myself
<hornbeck> I think I have someone
<hornbeck> I have to go get my daughter from my wife real quick
<hornbeck> be back in a bit
<plovs> sivang, what bug?
<sivang> the yelp hoary bug when browsing docs
<hornbeck> yelp seems to be very broken in hoary
<plovs> sivang, i do not have hoary yet
<plovs> hornbeck, you might investigate copying to a remote server, automatically
<sivang> horbeck : you willing to be my test subject ?  I have a supposed to be fixed package I created.
<hornbeck> yes I will check it out
<plovs> hornbeck, i so much hate tape (on windows)
<hornbeck> I might look into coping to remote server
<hornbeck> tape is not that bad
<hornbeck> cd is not bad for right now
<plovs> hornbeck, i never used tape on *nux
<hornbeck> I thought about external drive
<hornbeck> a mount -> copy -> unmount everynight
<plovs> an old 486 with nfs is enough
<hornbeck> I already have like 4 computers in this room
<hornbeck> but I will see if I have something else to hook up
<plovs> where will you put the new dell?
<hornbeck> in place of the sony I am using right now
<hornbeck> I could use the sony for backup
<plovs> you have a cupboard with airco and ups?
<hornbeck> I have them sitting on my desk and I have ups coming tomorrow
<plovs> the small once are not that expensive on ebay, and a lot quiter
<plovs> i have a bunch of comps at work and it drives me nuts
<hornbeck> yeah, it is pretty loud in my office with all these
<plovs> one amd, with a fan like a small airplane
<plovs> hornbeck have you seen the new faq?
<hornbeck> the docbook one?
<plovs> hornbeck, i just can't compliment myself enough for it
<plovs> :-)
<plovs> hornbeck, yes but in bookform
<hornbeck> I read through it
<plovs> hornbeck, the one in a bunch of small docs
<hornbeck> is it the one in svn right now?
<hornbeck> OT: my boss moved three computers in his house to Ubuntu yesterday
<hornbeck> he has never used linux before
<plovs> hornbeck, and three in the same time? brave (or ...)
<hornbeck> yeah, he took out all his windows boxes
<hornbeck> he was that impressed
<plovs> hornbeck, could you make a small write-up on pinning? i'm not goos at it but sivang would need it (before he blowse up his computer)
<hornbeck> pinning?
<plovs> hornbeck, maybe i found something already
<hornbeck> what is pinning?
<hornbeck> maybe I know it as something else
<plovs> hornbeck, yes running one version of debian but installing packages of the other
<hornbeck> ahhh, ok
<hornbeck> that is called pinning?
<plovs> yes
<hornbeck> huh, learn something everyday
<sivang> plovs : no I'm  ok :)
<plovs> i'll write a small howto 
<hornbeck> sivang: you blowing stuff up
<hornbeck> :-)
<plovs> sivang, yeah right! 
<sivang> I fixed that package, I am going to put it somewhere so you'll be able to downlod it
<sivang> and test.
<plovs> sivang, i heard how you installed yelp from warty, wearing a helmet
<plovs> sivang, cool!
<sivang> got it fixed now,
<sivang> so this is yelp from hoary :)
<plovs> sivang, hornbeck needs it
<sivang> btw, the pinnig is great!
<sivang> thanks for the link
<hornbeck> yes, hornbeck needs it
<hornbeck> I want the link
<sivang> I configured apt to do pinning and it's just rocks for develpoment process.
<plovs> sivang, i'll do a write-up, you can check, ok?
<sivang> everybody! please mail me at sivan@workaround.org everything you want me to do, I'm unable to keep track :)
<sivang> this would be great as my todo list, and my tomboy lists are already outdated.
<sivang> :)))
<hornbeck> I don't want you to do anything :-p
<plovs> your email-address got just harvested
<plovs> now you'll get lots of email
<plovs> hornbeck, i always try to make him do lots of things
<hornbeck> haha
<plovs> hornbeck, how is ssh?
<hornbeck> broken
<plovs> hornbeck, :-(
<hornbeck> I also have no reason to have it open now
<hornbeck> so I am not worried about it
<plovs> hornbeck, ok
<plovs> hornbeck, trac is supposed to be a nice frontend to subversion, you know it? http://www.edgewall.com/trac/
<sivang> sahsa , please mail me ok? I that would enable me to track down one thing after another, I need this...ppllleeeaassse ! :)
<sivang> hornbeck, also if you have anything for review :)
<plovs> sivang, as soon as i have written it
<sivang> ok, thanks
<plovs> hornbeck, can you email me your apt/sources.list?
<hornbeck> if I have anything for review it will go on the mailing list
<plovs> from hoary?
<hornbeck> ok
<sivang> I have some strong mail filter there..:)
<plovs> sivang, let me subscribe you to some lists then
<sivang> hey hey hey :)
<sivang> plovs! didn't mean that in such a way :)
<hornbeck> plovs: on its way
<sivang> I don't want to get mail from "F%$#%@$#XXX@myD667K.COM" :)
<plovs> sivang, ;-)
<hornbeck> well I have to give the kids baths
<sivang> plovs : anyway, finally it's time to upload the gnome manual.
<sivang> happy bath! for hornbeck's kids
<sivang> :)
<plovs> hornbeck, thanks and have fun
<hornbeck> the gnome-manual is uploaded
<hornbeck> 69.155.172.105/gnome-docs
<hornbeck> wrong address
<hornbeck> 69.155.172.150/gnome-docs
<hornbeck> that is right
<plovs> hornbeck, sivang, nice, i can finally check it out
<sivang> hornbeck : this is the version I've given you? Did you do *any* changes since my version?
<hornbeck> I put this all in the mails I have sent to the list
<hornbeck> sivang: no
<hornbeck> :-(
<hornbeck> but you can check mine out, run a diff, patch it, and commit it back
<hornbeck> I will be back in about 30 minutes
<sivang> ok, no prob. C'ya!
<sivang> it's good you didn't do any changes, it would spare me the diffs
<sivang> :)
<hornbeck> I am going to start making changes this week though
<hornbeck> I have alot of time off this week, so docs are going to be getting done
<plovs> hornbeck, good to hear
<plovs> hornbeck, now go wash the kids!
<plovs> https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/PinningHowto
<sivang> plovs : awsome!
<sivang> awesome!
<sivang> read it
<sivang> how is that for a quick review?
<sivang> :)
<sivang> plovs : using hoary?
<ChrisH> Information about "apt-cache policy" and the apt_preferences man page would be nice.
<plovs> ChrisH, to that doc?
<sivang> true, I already used the debian version of this document, so didn't think it was missing.
<sivang> ChrisH : using hoary?
<ChrisH> plovs: yup
<ChrisH> sivang: I don't use hoary here.
<sivang> ok, I have my package on the web,
<ChrisH> sivang: Just pinned the ncpfs package so I can mount my novell share at work.
<sivang> waiting to be tested..
<sivang> :)
<ChrisH> sivang: Looks good so far. Did you do it alone?
<sivang> hhmm, no :(
<sivang> just changed whatever I to change (some XSLT for yelp) and repackaged.
<sivang> :)
<sivang> I'm a fake :)
<hornbeck> where is it at sivang
<sivang> http://sivan.workaround.org/ubuntu
<hornbeck> sivang: it did not fix my problems :-(
<hornbeck> it installed fine but still will not render my files
<sivang> hornbeck : you sure? I tested it over my system, over and over and it fixed my problem.
<sivang> what was your problem?
<hornbeck> "The file could not be processed"
<hornbeck> on every doc
<sivang> that's strange
<sivang> take a look at the file:
<sivang> /usr/share/xml/gnome/xslt/docbook/html/db2html.xsl
<sivang> see if you have there:
<sivang> 	 <!-- == db.xref.target == -->
<sivang>   	 <xsl:template name="db.xref.target">
<sivang>   	   <xsl:param name="linkend"/>
<sivang>   	   <xsl:value-of select="concat('#', $linkend)"/>
<sivang>   	 </xsl:template>
<hornbeck> where at?
<hornbeck> never mind
<sivang> tell if you have this file anyways, it may be missing and I know the solution to this.
<hornbeck> I don't even have the gnome directory
<sivang> ok,
<sivang> fix on the way :)
<hornbeck> ok
<sivang> I know exactly what to do!
<sivang> :)
<sivang> thanks john
<hornbeck> :-) good
<sivang> hornbeck : try again
<sivang> dpkg --purge yelp
<sivang> then download the new packages from the same location,
<sivang> and install
<hornbeck> ok
<hornbeck> same name?
<sivang> yes
<sivang> find it on the same location http://sivan.workaround.org/ubuntu
<hornbeck> same error
* cenerentola is away: I'm busy
<hornbeck> it did not fix it :-(
<sivang> shit, could you see if now you have :
<sivang> /usr/share/xml/gnome/xslt/docbook/html/db2html.xsl
<sivang> ?
<hornbeck> no I don't
<hornbeck> I still don't have /usr/share/xml/gnome
<sivang> ok, fixing..
<sivang> thanks again - john
<hornbeck> no problem, I need it fixed as much as you need to fix it :-)
<hornbeck> hey enrico
<enrico> hello everyone!
<hornbeck> you see I finally got the subversion server running :-)
<hornbeck> so I need user and pass for you
<ChrisH> hornbeck: Are you confident we can migrate already?
<hornbeck> I am fairly confident
<hornbeck> I don't know of anything else I can do
<ChrisH> Then let's do it, baby. ;)
<hornbeck> if you can see something I am missing let me know
<ChrisH> I'll complain a lot! :)
<hornbeck> a big UPS is going to be put in place in the morning
<hornbeck> I am working on another machine to rsync this one right now
<ChrisH> hornbeck: what about that: http://svnbook.red-bean.com/en/1.0/ch05s03.html#svn-ch-5-sect-3.5
<hornbeck> have not read that yet
<ChrisH> Sounds simple.
<hornbeck> have you done it before?
<ChrisH> Not yet.
<enrico> to migrate?  You just use svnadmin to do a dump 
<enrico> and then restore the dump
<ChrisH> Yes... dump is done. :)
<hornbeck> how different is the faq from what I have
<hornbeck> plovs uploaded most the files last night
<ChrisH> hornbeck: I suggest you use all old revisions, too. So you better erase your version and restore this over it.
<ChrisH> hornbeck: The dump is at: http://workaround.org/faq.dump
<hornbeck> ok
* ChrisH officially stops his repository now
<hornbeck> let me read this over real quick
<hornbeck> so I don't screw it up :-)
<ChrisH> enrico: Is it just "svnadmin load dumpfile"?
<enrico> yes
<ChrisH> enrico: And I guess everybody needs to "svn switch" to the new repository...
<hornbeck> do I completely erase what I had?
<enrico> No: svnadmin load should just add the things in the dump. I don't know what happens if you have things in the dump and in the repo, though (but you can specify a REPOS_PATH for the load oepration)
<hornbeck> svnadmin dump myrepos | svnadmin load newrepos
<hornbeck> would that work?
<ChrisH> Probably not. "dump" is what I did.
<hornbeck> ok
<hornbeck> I am going to try this :-)
<hornbeck> I will let you know
* ChrisH crosses fingers
<hornbeck> Can't open file "faq.dump/format': Not a directory
<enrico> hornbeck: did you create the new repository first?
<hornbeck> yes
<enrico> is the new repository called faq.dump?
<hornbeck> no it is called faq
<hornbeck> the dump file is called faq.dump
<enrico> What was the command you gave?
<enrico> Did you say svnadmin load faq.dump?
<hornbeck> svnadmin load faq.dump
<enrico> do svnadmin load faq < faq.dump
<enrico> the parameter to svnadmin load is the repository, not the dump file
<enrico> the dump file goes in stdin
<hornbeck> that worked
<hornbeck> :-)
<hornbeck> it loaded
<hornbeck> crap something went wrong
<hornbeck> I fixed it
<hornbeck> ok the repository is up and running
<hornbeck> :-)
<ChrisH> What is the official URL?
<hornbeck> http://69.155.172.150/faq
<hornbeck> I will work on actual domain names
<enrico> hornbeck: is that a static IP?
<hornbeck> yes
<ChrisH> So everybody needs to run: svn switch --relocate http://ubuntu.workaround.org:8080/faq http://69.155.172.150/faq
<hornbeck> and I just backed up so the repository is nice and backed up
<enrico> Relocate worked great here
<hornbeck> good deal
<hornbeck> well I am going to go and start doing some work for today
<hornbeck> I will be checking in
<hornbeck> email if something goes wrong with the server
<enrico> hornbeck: please tell if you need help in registering names
<hornbeck> domain names ?
<enrico> hornbeck: yes
<hornbeck> I could use some help yes
<enrico> hornbeck: Did you have any plans for it?
<hornbeck> not really
<sivang> hornbeck : apt-get install gnome-doc-utils, then if you already installed my package, try again.
<sivang> if not, remove any former yelp packages, and install mine's.
<enrico> hornbeck: I'll ask if there is some nameserver namespace we can fiddle with, then
<hornbeck> ubuntudoc.org would be nice :-)
<hornbeck> sivang: that worked :-)
<sivang> yeeha!
<hornbeck> I was missing that package
<sivang> I'm your savior :)
<hornbeck> yes
<hornbeck> now I can check my own work
<sivang> I needed it so bad, so I figured I'll just go and fix it.
<hornbeck> thats cool
<sivang> btw, the title page thingy still won't work - it's code in working, so it would be fixed until 2.10 goes out.
<sivang> meaning, the code for it has not yet been written by upstream.
<hornbeck> right
<sivang> but I think most of the browsing on the right side will now work :)
<hornbeck> I just needed it so I could check my book
<hornbeck> make sure there was no errors
<enrico> I'll be back in a couple of hours
<plovs> hornbeck, i haven't followed the conversation, should we use your svn now, or not yet?
<hornbeck> plovs: yes
<plovs> ChrisH, i can not connect to http://ubuntu.workaround.org:8080
<hornbeck> ChrisH's server is no more
<plovs> hornbeck, ok, let me checkout yours then
<hornbeck> ok, we exported his repository to mine
<hornbeck> if you read the log they said how to use svn switch for it 
<plovs> hornbeck, what is the link?
<plovs> 69.155.172.150/faq ?
<hornbeck> yes
<hornbeck> please don't tell me its not working 
<hornbeck> plovs: have you ever used gpg before?
<plovs> hornbeck, first it did not work, then i removed the faq dir and now it worked!
<plovs> hornbeck, hardly
<plovs> hornbeck, but i want to learn
<hornbeck> I made my key
<hornbeck> now I don't know how to use it :-)
<hornbeck> plovs: did you use svn switch?
<hornbeck> or just svn update?
<plovs> hornbeck, i have a dir called Chris and a dir called John :-)
<hornbeck> ahh
<hornbeck> well all the old stuff out of my faq was deleted
<hornbeck> than we moved his over
<plovs> hornbeck, i'll test it now
<hornbeck> ok
<plovs> hornbeck, it works great
<hornbeck> good deal
<hornbeck> plovs: have you sent elmo your gpg key?
<plovs> hornbeck, i haven't made one yet
<hornbeck> damn
<hornbeck> I am working on it but don't really get what I am supposed to use out of the output
<plovs> let me find some docs on it, time to learn something new 
<hornbeck> I am reading the howto right now
<plovs> which one? link?
<hornbeck> http://webber.dewinter.com/gnupg_howto/english/GPGMiniHowto-3.html#ss3.1
<hornbeck> I think I may have figured out how to get the key
<hornbeck> gpg --export -a
<hornbeck> will give me a full key
<hornbeck> now I just need to learn how to use it
<plovs> hornbeck, ok, made a key as well
<hornbeck> have you figured out the key id?
<plovs> hornbeck, still reading
<hornbeck> I would like to be able to add this to evolution
<hornbeck> cool I got it
<plovs> in evolution?
<hornbeck> yeah
<plovs> how?
<hornbeck> one sec
<hornbeck> you have to gpg --list-secret-keys
<hornbeck> than it gives a output
<hornbeck> looks like this
<hornbeck> sec   1024D/Number 2004-11-14 Name
<hornbeck> the Number you put into your evolution account
<hornbeck> tools, settings, edit your account
<hornbeck> than security
<hornbeck> so now I will mail out with my key
<plovs> hornbeck, ok, got it, now i have to wait until my gmail account is updated for pop
<hornbeck> thats cool
<hornbeck> I wonder if mine is
<hornbeck> hmmm
<hornbeck> hey trickie
<trickie> hornbeck: hello!
<hornbeck> hows it going?
<trickie> trickie: ah not too bad... monday morning at work :(
<hornbeck> where are you located?
<trickie> hornbeck: melbourne, australia
<trickie> hornbeck: u?
<hornbeck> Lawton, Oklahoma, USA
<hornbeck> it is 3:00pm Sunday afternoon
<trickie> hornbeck: ah... sunday afternoon... very nice
<plovs> trickie, you just made our day!
<trickie> plovs: yeah?
<plovs> trickie, yeah, you're at work and we still enjoy our weekend
<trickie> plovs: ha ha ha enjoy!
<hornbeck> yep
<plovs> trickie, friday it will be the other way around, 5 days to go
<hornbeck> haha
<hornbeck> yeah
<plovs> trickie, hang in there
<trickie> plovs: thats right... you guys just wait :)
<hornbeck> well I am going to buy some groceries
<hornbeck> be back afterwards
<plovs> hornbeck, see ya
<trickie> hornbeck: see ya
<trickie> ChrisH: you around?
<sivang> trickie : he felt bad, went to bed I think
<sivang> how you been trickie?
<trickie> sivang: yeah great...
<trickie> sivang: was just gonna ask him for some svn access... that was me who sent through the patch on the mailing-list, then i remembered he wouldn't know that :)
<trickie> sivang: how are you?
<sivang> AH I think I've seen it,
<sivang> regarding some XSLT right?
<trickie> yeah
<trickie> chunking the faq into multiple files
<sivang> I'm fine thanks, fixed the yelp bug today - if you are using hoary, you might want to use my pacakge :)
<plovs> trickie, it's hornbeck who gives out svn keys nowadays
<trickie> ah ok... is it in the repos? just do an update?
<sivang> yeah, svn@hornbeck, pleased to server you! :)
<sivang> erggh
<plovs> trickie, we moved to his server
<sivang> serve
<trickie> ah ok...
<plovs> sivang, surf
<trickie> well i might ask him abit later...
<trickie> well guys... i gotta get into some work... so i will be around but mainly just observing...
<trickie> talk to you all soon
<plovs> trickie, see ya
<sivang> laterz buddy
<plovs> sivang, what does the GNU FDL license mean? Free Documentation License i used a doc with this license as base for pinninghowto
<plovs> the wiki is so slow it almost goes backwards
<sivang> yes, noticed, btw, have you looked at http://home.twcny.rr.com/nerode/neroden/fdl.html ?
<plovs> sivang, thanks for the link
<plovs> good night all!
<sivang> night plovs!
<robertj> howdy all
<sivang> hey roberttj
<sivang> robertj
<sivang> what's up?
<robertj> Not alot
<robertj> I heard there was serious talk of a book running around
<sivang> a book abount Ubuntu ?
<robertj> yup
<sivang> you interested?
<robertj> might be
<sivang> it's hoenbeck you should be talking to :) are you interested in conributing?
<robertj> Perhaps, I still don't know much about it
<robertj> everything I see reads "It could be this, or that. What a great idea!"
<sivang> haha
<sivang> I thought I've seen you on -devel previosuly, are you a developer?
<robertj> no, I just hang around there because I've got questions that tend to creep over the scope of normal user questions
<sivang> Ah nice
<sivang> will you be interested in contributing to ubuntu doc front?
<robertj> That's very probable
<robertj> I'm interested in a very concise manual
<robertj> maybe a part 1. Ubuntu Linux part 2. Default Applications
<robertj> A clickity-click-click guide through Ubuntu
<sivang> have you seen Hornbeck's last post to our list?
<robertj> Yeah
<sivang> that's what brough you here?
<robertj> Well, just kind of interested to tell the truth
<sivang> ok, that's nice. What truth is it ? ;)
<robertj> but this is a brief stop by
<robertj> in 10 minutes I have to log off and get ready to head out
<robertj> ill be back later 
<sivang> yo trickie
<trickie> yo
<sivang> feeling at home already? :)
<trickie> sivang: i might be a bit hard to talk to today... at work... doing work :)
<trickie> sivang: yeah for sure
<trickie> sivang: i am so excitied to be helping out... finally feel like i have a grasp on how to get taks to do ect
<sivang> great.
<sivang> has someone finally put the todo list I have been promising?
<sivang> :)
<trickie> sivang: looking forward to diving into that list too
<trickie> :)
<sivang> ok, great. I will have it sometime soon, let's say by the end of this week?
<sivang> :)
<sivang> nahh, tommorow
<sivang> be better.
<trickie> sivang: cool
<skyrider> hi, guys
<littlegreenman> hei
<skyrider> can you load https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/HowToGetHelpRussian ?
<skyrider> I try to do this, but no result
<skyrider> :(
<skyrider> it's very strange because I can load almost all other wiki pages
#ubuntu-doc 2004-11-26
<littlegreenman> gonna try
<littlegreenman> yep
<littlegreenman> last edited 7 hours ago by Alexey Molchanov
<skyrider> littlegreenman: can you load it?
<littlegreenman> yes,
<skyrider> shit
<skyrider> I try to sendnew version
<skyrider> but I can't
<littlegreenman> it's fine in my browaer
<littlegreenman> ??? ????????? ???????? ???????
<skyrider> littlegreenman: thanks
<skyrider> ?
<littlegreenman> :D
<sivang> hey littlegreenman
<littlegreenman> hello sivang
<skyrider> sivang: hi
<littlegreenman> skyrider, are you translating pages to russian ,or creating your own?
<sivang> how are you? where from? (Hi Skyrider!) welcome to doc team channel 
<sivang> :)
<skyrider> littlegreenman: it's my own
<littlegreenman> i'm from portugal, been translating some wiki pages to portuguese
<skyrider> I'm also working on translations of other pages now
<littlegreenman> cool skyrider i just don't have the expertise... i am a translator, so help that way :D
<littlegreenman> what's up sivang
<sivang> you're also a translator? spanish community? :)
<skyrider> Actually I don't have good writing skills too but somebody has to do it. So I try and hope community will help me fix my mistakes :)
<littlegreenman> :) portuguese though... no pt channel for ubuntu
<littlegreenman> yeah skyrider i know how you feel...
<sivang> ah portugal, brazil, spain, italy..places to see..:)
<sivang> then make up one!
<littlegreenman> i think if someone kickstarts it, then other feel the need to help as well
<sivang> you shall be responsible for the channel
<sivang> :)
<littlegreenman> sivang, i will feel lonely there :)
<littlegreenman> how does one reg the channel?
<sivang> ah well, I can join in there also :) but I don't know portuguesse, although love it's sound.
* littlegreenman lost his cigs
<littlegreenman> sivang, :D where u from?
<littlegreenman> to much trouble to whois you and nicer this way eheheh
<sivang> Israel 
<skyrider> littlegreenman: I can give you some cigs ;)
<littlegreenman> thank skyrider just found them
<littlegreenman> i feel the ubuntu wiki is not very geared towards newbies......
<littlegreenman> I am a newbie myself in terms of linux, trying to translate that to my language
<sivang> this is on the works, if you can suggest fixes etc, or even bug us on the mailing list that would be great.
<littlegreenman> sivang, would love to go to israel. have a good friend from there
<sivang> you do?
<sivang> I love to learn portougeese
<sivang> (damn so many spelling mistakes)
<littlegreenman> ol
<littlegreenman> :D means hello
<sivang> how do you say CHampaigne?
<sivang> like the drink
<sivang> :)
* skyrider loves to learn English *cough*
<littlegreenman> sivang, the same way man... champagne... 
* sivang thinks skyrider knows english very well
<skyrider> What do you think about vodka? ;)
<sivang> is it also the language spoken in brazil?
<sivang> ah smirnov
<sivang> :))
<littlegreenman> yeah sivang
<skyrider> :)
<littlegreenman> there is a debate about that actually
<littlegreenman> cause is same lang
<littlegreenman> but they use it slightly differently
<sivang> I like the language alot, watched "Presencia De Anita" , "Dona Flour" etc..
<sivang> actors like mel lisboa
<sivang> :)
<littlegreenman> european portuguese and brazilian portuguese are more differente than british english and american english
<littlegreenman> sivang, :D wow!
<sivang> brazilian has this whistelling sound!
<littlegreenman> it's more.... rythmic
<littlegreenman> yeah
<sivang> and this legatto sounding
<sivang> yes
<littlegreenman> have you seen... the city of god?
<sivang> it's awesome
<littlegreenman> brazilian movie
<sivang> city of god?
<littlegreenman> yeah
<sivang> no, I will look for it on my DVD lib
<littlegreenman> very good....
<littlegreenman> goona search imdb
<littlegreenman> 1 sec
<littlegreenman> http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0317248/
<littlegreenman> before we had mtv portugal, we would have the israeli one... many adds from your side of the world :D
<skyrider> I've just restarted firefox and now I can load my page. Horray!!! *dancing*
<littlegreenman> great skyrider
<littlegreenman> it was working fine on mine....
<littlegreenman> i am loving this whole ubuntu experience
<littlegreenman> i have tried different linux distros... usually my brother would convince me....
<littlegreenman> but finally something that a newbie like me can use....
<littlegreenman> and with the whole power of linux
<skyrider> cool
<skyrider> I can't say I'm newbie but I like it very much
<skyrider> and constantly convincing my friends to it :)
<skyrider> (I mean Ubuntu)
<littlegreenman> ;) yeah i know... they are getting tired of me....
<skyrider> sivang: ping
<littlegreenman> windows users need a system to work with no much hasle
<littlegreenman> as windows friendly as possible... i think ubuntu has that... i haven't been to xp for a few days now...
<littlegreenman> i can do my work here...
<littlegreenman> as well, if not better than with xp
<skyrider> littlegreenman: great
<skyrider> Unfortunaly I can't say the same about me
<skyrider> :(
<littlegreenman> how come?
<sivang> yes
<sivang> here
<sivang> sorry, was busy
<skyrider> I have to use some proprietary progs to do laboratory works for the university
<skyrider> sivang: what about irc logs?
<littlegreenman> :( that sucks skyrider
<skyrider> littlegreenman: I know
<sivang> oh, mako is working on this, let's see if I can bug him now (he's on NYC time)
<littlegreenman> skyrider, i only need office and a desktop environment for internet use... so i have all i need....
<skyrider> sivang: yes
<littlegreenman> and the best thing is although it is kind of a slow machine it runs smoothly, something i coulnd't with xp
<littlegreenman> was already planing an upgrade
<skyrider> littlegreenman: it's good. I need Visual C++, Altera MAX+ 2, Xilinx ...
<skyrider> ... Enterprise Architect
<skyrider> etc.
<littlegreenman> ect... :D
<skyrider> littlegreenman: what machine do you have?
<littlegreenman> that was what i was gonna say
<littlegreenman> i am running:
<littlegreenman> CPU: AMD-K7(tm) Processor, 499.346MHz
<littlegreenman> RAM 192 MB
<littlegreenman> my friend just bought a few weeks ago a 3.2 Ghz Intel with 640 MB ram
<littlegreenman> not sure about ram
<littlegreenman> my xp config was already ....................................................
<skyrider> He-he. Mine is better: Duron 750, 256Mb RAM
<littlegreenman> :)
<sivang> I have 2.6Gigs HT intel machine..
<skyrider> littlegreenman: is your friend crazy?
<sivang> ubuntu is great here
<littlegreenman> skyrider, it was a promotion... cheap cheap
<littlegreenman> EUR 999
<littlegreenman> with a 19 in TFT monitor
<littlegreenman> or maybe 17
<sivang> waaawo!
<littlegreenman> not sure :D
<sivang> in protugal?
<skyrider> littlegreenman: not bad ;)
<littlegreenman> yep sivang
<sivang> pretty good
<littlegreenman> i know... but that is basically what you need to have a smooth xp experience.. which i don't have
<skyrider> I think I can buy such machine here (in Ukraine) even cheaper :-P
<littlegreenman> and i have a smooth ubuntu experience believe me....
<littlegreenman> skyrider, ;)
<sivang> linux is known to run better on less hardware then xp
<littlegreenman> i know sivang
<littlegreenman> and this one, it boots, and it just goes all so well
<sivang> what adds did you get btw ? :)
<littlegreenman> it got all my HW... everything
<sivang> what are you studying littlegreenman?
<littlegreenman> whay past that sivang :D i work....
<littlegreenman> studied public relations
<littlegreenman> and now i am in the tourism business
<littlegreenman> and do translation
<littlegreenman> and do translations
<sivang> you said something about HW that's why I asked.
<littlegreenman> hardware
<littlegreenman> :D sorry
<sivang> ah
<sivang> LOL
<littlegreenman> :)
<skyrider> littlegreenman: is a PR man. he-he :)
<sivang> maybe you can be on the PR team or something :)
* littlegreenman is a pr man alright
<littlegreenman> of ubuntu :D yeah... i have to tell you
<sivang> yes
<littlegreenman> this is one sweet experience from a windows user perspective
<littlegreenman> everyone is saying, 
<littlegreenman> oh it needs this
<littlegreenman> or still needs that
<littlegreenman> but for me... it's fine
<littlegreenman> the only problem is the world at large
<littlegreenman> for instance it's so easy to install whatever program you need
<littlegreenman> do a search on the net, and then execute it, i mean on windows
<sivang> yes
<sivang> it's way kool
<littlegreenman> on linux you use synaptic which is easy as hell
<littlegreenman> but there isn't the whole
<littlegreenman> cnet.com
<littlegreenman> download.com
<littlegreenman> etc etc etc etc
<sivang> littlegreenman : I see your english is pretty fine, why don't you start a doc on the wiki about that? something of official nature? to act as a base for some PR and advocacy?
<littlegreenman> with loads and loads of progs 
<sivang> you could make it in other latin langs afterwards :)
<littlegreenman> that's a good idea... 
<littlegreenman> i went to distrowatch yesterday
<littlegreenman> and ubuntu is right on top there with other more popular distros
<sivang> ah nice, didn
<littlegreenman> but you google it and there isn't much.... 
<sivang> 'check them a while
<littlegreenman> it does need some publicity
<littlegreenman> and maybe it's just me, new to this whole thing, but there seems to be a buzz about the whole thing
<sivang> no there is. It's one of the most spoken currently ,I think.
<littlegreenman> think so as well
<littlegreenman> there isn't much ubuntu specific help for windows switchovers though i feel
* littlegreenman has his brother to help out 
<sivang> littlegreenman : actually, I have started http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/StartingTheJourney
<littlegreenman> is that yours? i did see it today.. didn't have time to read....
<littlegreenman> that's very important... i don't know... but what 70% of computer users use windows based systems?
<littlegreenman> maybe more?
<littlegreenman> we need to convince these people that the windows system is substandard....
<littlegreenman> that you don't need to keep on buying new hardware... upgrading... upgrading....
<littlegreenman> there is out there software that does the same and more (if you want to look) for less
<littlegreenman> i actually wanted to learn more... about linux... any good resources?
<sivang> actually, if you are interested in debina,
<sivang> debian, 
<sivang> there a nice one somehwhere.. (looking)
<sivang> http://www.wylug.org.uk/talks/1998/02/debian.html
<littlegreenman> gonna have a look sivang later thanks....
<sivang> http://newbiedoc.sourceforge.net/
<sivang> this is something AWESEOM for newbies
<sivang> I really like it,
<sivang> funny too
<littlegreenman> :D
<littlegreenman> this what i needed... gonna have a look, maybe incorporate some into the portuguese documentation wiki of ubuntu
<littlegreenman> thanks sivang
<sivang> actually this document I am working is based on some amazing one by a nice peorson from ibm.
<sivang> (the starting the joureny)
<sivang> I am working on making it 'ubuntuized'
<sivang> :)
<sivang> that would be great
<sivang> if you could have it in english also,
<littlegreenman> :)
<sivang> that would be also good,
<sivang> would provide a good ground for other translators maybe
<littlegreenman> english is the "world" language.... it's way important......
<littlegreenman> and having one good document in english, means everyone could easly translate it into their languages.....
<sivang> yes, I just said that :)
<sivang> littlegreenman, what is your name btw?
<sivang> (if you don't mind me asking)
<littlegreenman> diogo
<littlegreenman> :D
<littlegreenman> Diogo Heleno
<littlegreenman> i was just rephrasing what you said into my own words :D
<sivang> ah cool
<sivang> ;-)
<littlegreenman> after passing the littlegreenman siv :D
<littlegreenman> do u subscribe to the ubuntu doc mailing list?
<sivang> yes, I do. were you posting there?
<littlegreenman> no no, subscribed today :D
<littlegreenman> cool.... i need to go... work very early tomorrow... but we need to get in touch... this whole newbie ubuntu thing is something that needs to be done... and maybe i can help u
<sivang> no prob, yo can always mail the list, everybody here would be glad to help on that.
<sivang> :)
<sivang> mail the doc list, present yourself etc :)
<littlegreenman> yeah, might do that....
<sivang> laterz !
<littlegreenman> ok, goodnight all gotta go
<sivang> night
<hornbeck> I'm back
<sivang> yo dude
<hornbeck> yo
<sivang> congretz on the server
<hornbeck> thanks
<sivang> finally :)
<hornbeck> it seems to be working good
<sivang> how my package been treating you?
<hornbeck> the gnome-docs?
<sivang> yeppers
<hornbeck> I have not started yet
<sivang> no
<hornbeck> I was about to start working on them
<sivang> I meant, the yelp
<sivang> :)
<hornbeck> ohhh
<hornbeck> that is great
<hornbeck> :-)
<sivang> could you believe this is one missing XSLT directive?
<hornbeck> huh
<sivang> what caused the bug..
<hornbeck> are you sending a fix upstream 
<hornbeck> or is it just Ubuntu?
<sivang> Oh, the fix came from upstream, with whom I worked this out :)
<hornbeck> nice
<hornbeck> doing a great job you are
<sivang> I hope :-)
<sivang> I am not getting too much wiki work done though :(
<hornbeck> I have not done wiki work in days really
<hornbeck> I have just been doing outlines and stuff for this book
<hornbeck> I don't think it will be what I wanted
<hornbeck> but I think it will be a great thing for Ubuntu
<sivang> oh!
<sivang> I recalled now,
<sivang> someone came here today,
<sivang> was interested in the book
<hornbeck> really
<sivang> sirieously
<sivang> yes,
<hornbeck> I need to check the log
<sivang> he wants to help out on this.
<hornbeck> ncie
<hornbeck> nice
<hornbeck> I need some help
<hornbeck> did you guys point him to the svn server?
<sivang> robertj_afk now
<sivang> ah, I didn't remember the url and loging stuff, so not :)
<sivang> :(
<sivang> you might want to msg him or something
<hornbeck> cool I just read what he said
<sivang> see what I meant?
<sivang> :)
<hornbeck> yeah
<hornbeck> I really need seme help in parts
<sivang> I figured
<hornbeck> mainly the applications sections
<hornbeck> I just don't have time to work through them
<sivang> anyway, be back in 30
<hornbeck> ok
<hornbeck> hello
<enrico> Hello
<sivang> hey enrico
<hornbeck> I have my gpg key
<sivang> seems like more and more people are getting interested in helping
<enrico> hornbeck: did you upload it to a keyserver?
<hornbeck> no
<enrico> gpg --send-key <your key id>
<enrico> sivang: that's great news!
<sivang> yes, I had someone from portugal here
<hornbeck> enrico: its sent
<enrico> We may be making the breakthrough discovery that being friendly actually helps :)
<enrico> hornbeck: what is your key ID?
<hornbeck> being friendly helps?
<sivang> he would like to help on the newbie doc corner, pointed him at 
<hornbeck> my email address
<hornbeck> hornbeck at freeshell dot org
<hornbeck> how do I get yours?
<enrico> hornbeck: my key: gpg --recv-key 797ebfab
<sivang> enrico : yes, being friendly works.
<sivang> :)
<enrico> sivang: once we prove that, we write a paper and publish it on slashdot
<enrico> "Revolution!  Being friendly helps!"
<sivang> he would like to work on something like http://newbiedoc.sourceforge.net/
<sivang> for ubuntu
<sivang> hahah
<sivang> could we have a check run to see how much sbscribers we have on ubuntu-doc ?
<hornbeck> I can check 
<sivang> please do
<sivang> :)
<enrico> hornbeck: do you confirm me your key ID is D38F22AB ?
<hornbeck> we have 61 people subscribed to ubuntu-doc
<hornbeck> how do I check that enrico?
<hornbeck> yes that is it
<enrico> hornbeck: gpg --fingerprint hornbeck ad freeshell dot org
<enrico> it should give you some key info and the fingerprint
<enrico> the key info start with something like:
<hornbeck> I just did gpg --list-keys
<hornbeck> that is the number
<enrico> pub  1024D/797EBFAB
<enrico> The thing right of the slash it's 8 hexadecimal digits and it's the key ID
<enrico> It's the same as the last 8 digits of the fingerprint
<hornbeck> cool
<hornbeck> man I love learning new things :-)
<enrico> hornbeck: I'm sending you the password then
<hornbeck> ok
<hornbeck> so people can just use my key id to pull my gpg stuff?
<enrico> No
<enrico> Trust is based on key signatures
<enrico> You meet people in person, check official documents with photo IDs, get the key fingerprint from the real person
<hornbeck> ok
<enrico> Then, you know that is the fingerprint of the key corresponding to that person; you download the key from a keyserver, check the fingerprint and you know it's the right key
<enrico> At that point you may want to certify that you checked, so you sign his/her public key and upload it
<hornbeck> but do I need to give them that number or my email address like I gave you?
<hornbeck> boy, I have alot of reading to do
<hornbeck> gpg, subversion, docbook, apache
<hornbeck> I will never get docs written :-)
<enrico> hornbeck: No, I was just doing a very stupid check, just in case I downloaded a wrong key.  However, I have no way to trust your key now
<enrico> http://www.lysator.liu.se/~jc/wotsap  is a web of trust pathfinder
<hornbeck> cool
<enrico> Try getting the path between 135ea668 (Stallman) and 797ebfab (me)
<enrico> You can see that there are various people of which I checked the identity, which in turn checked RMS' identity, so I have a trust path to Stallman
<hornbeck> nice
<enrico> Of course, I may not trust those intermediary people and I may choose not to trust stallman's key anyway
<hornbeck> haha
<enrico> But that's how trust work in the world of web of trust
<enrico> So, the thing is at the ubuntu conf, or whenever you meet people with GPG keys, cross-signing keys
<hornbeck> how do you sign someone elses key?
<enrico> gpg --edit-key <key id>
<enrico> then you issue the 'sign' command
<enrico> You'll be shown the fingerprint which you have to check with one obtained from a trusted source
<hornbeck> does it upload it automaticly?
<enrico> No, it just keeps the signature in your keyring
<enrico> please don't sign my key!
<hornbeck> ok
<hornbeck> why don't sign your key?
<sivang> enrico : you met debian's lead? :)
<enrico> Because you haven't met me in person and I could be a man in black trying to earn a GPG certification of your trust :)
<enrico> sivang: sure!
<hornbeck> enrico: I will remember that
<enrico> sivang: picture at the restaurant with tbm: http://eddie.casa/extern/enrico/galleries/2004-02-23-Martin/martin/thumb/dscf0007-1-0.html
<hornbeck> I guess I really will have to go to some conf's now
<enrico> hornbeck: once you have a GPG key, you're doomed ;))
<hornbeck> it looks like it
<hornbeck> can I just back up my .gnupg folder in case of computer dieing?
<enrico> hornbeck: what's the date in your computer?
<enrico> hornbeck: sure
<enrico> hornbeck: that's all the data gnupg stores around
<hornbeck> Nov 14th 7:17 right now
<enrico> hornbeck: of course, that needs to be treated with care
<hornbeck> right
<enrico> It tells me that they key has been created on 2004-11-13 (?)
<hornbeck> hold on
<hornbeck> it shows it was made on 2004-11-14 on my computer
<enrico> Must be the keyserver
<hornbeck> maybe
<hornbeck> hey robertj
<robertj> heya
<hornbeck> I hear you are interested in the Ubuntu Book?
<hornbeck> maybe
<robertj> Yeah
<hornbeck> nice
<hornbeck> well what kind of information you looking for?
<hornbeck> you can see the outline at http://ubuntulinux.org/wiki/LearningUbuntuOutline
<robertj> oky, does that have info on the svn repostiory?
<hornbeck> no
<hornbeck> I have not put that info there yet
<robertj> ok
<hornbeck> the svn server is http://69.155.172.150/book
<robertj> I've been doing some thinking though
<robertj> and I think the basic manual should avoid command line stuff with the exception that it have a pointer to a "Using Ubuntu from the Command Line"
<hornbeck> I thought about it, but I really need to be shown the advantage of that
<robertj> hornbeck: well it cuts down on dead-tree weight
<hornbeck> I am always open to having my mind changed :-)
<hornbeck> that is true
<robertj> users have a phobia of thick manuals
<hornbeck> ok
<enrico> hornbeck: sent the password
<robertj> also people probably need a bit of help with paripherals
<hornbeck> ok
<hornbeck> right
<robertj> "Scanner, camera, printer, etc"
<hornbeck> robertj: how about you email me with all of your ideas, we can than start going back and forth and get some work done on it
<robertj> I do need to get things down, I will try to do that tonight
<hornbeck> can you pull my email from the mailing list?
<robertj> yeah
<robertj> it's archived
<hornbeck> nice
<robertj> just a bit of background
<hornbeck> I would be glad to have you help
<robertj> I'm a sysadmin in a mostly Mac school, we run Linux on the backend, and are switching more and more stuff over to Ubuntu
<hornbeck> I am switching a library to Ubuntu
<hornbeck> public library
<robertj> that should be a breeze
<hornbeck> you would think
<robertj> any problems?
<hornbeck> a few, but it is getting done
<hornbeck> nothing I cannot figure out
<robertj> btw, how does gnome react to having it's home directory chmodded 555 ;)
<hornbeck> the fun has been learning to build a web/svn server this past week
<hornbeck> never tried
<robertj> so how are you locking it down
<robertj> I thought kiosk and lockdown stuff was'nt slated until 2.10
<hornbeck> enrico: you are added
<enrico> hornbeck: thanks
<hornbeck> robertj: we are not locking it down really.  I have it set to load a desktop with no panels, just some icons
<hornbeck> we are not really worried about someone doing anything
<sivang> mainly working on a prototype currently, right?
<sivang> :)
<hornbeck> sivang: that is a different project
<robertj> I'll be right back
<hornbeck> ok
<robertj> changing computarss
<hornbeck> well I am off to dinner
<robertj> Anyone home?
<sivang> yes
<sivang> me here :)
<sivang> How you bee robertj ?
<robertj> oky
<robertj> I'm working on hacking out my take on a preferred index
<robertj> Want me to make a scratch page on the wiki and work on it together?
<sivang> yes, whenever you do something, and wish people to see it and comment, just put it on the wiki. it would be great, and provide ground to more contrib on your started stuff.
<robertj> well I meant really short term
<sivang> preferred index to what?
<robertj> the book, current at http://ubuntulinux.org/wiki/LearningUbuntuOutline
<sivang> ok, if you think something else should be the index,
<sivang> then just create another page with say, the same name but add like "ALternativeIndex" to it,
<sivang> and then fire off email to the mailing list,
<sivang> requesting for feedback.
<sivang> usually that is how we do stuff here :)
<sivang> even if it is 2 lines, it's ok. maybe your 2 lines would inspire someone to do 200 lines on it...:)_
<robertj> urgh, sloooow wiki ;)
<sivang> yes
<sivang> I know. it's being worked on...
<hornbeck> I'm back
<sivang> anyhow, I need to upload my version of the gnome-doc
<hornbeck> ok
<sivang> that should be the curret version,
<hornbeck> you have access to it
<sivang> I had it chaged.
<sivang> ok, how do I do that?
<sivang> :)
<sivang> now that you are svn_central@hornbeck.org :)
* robertj is wikkifying his brief outline
<hornbeck> I thought you where going to make diffs against them and patch the current svn
<hornbeck> sivang: people have already pulled the gnome-docs so others may be working on them
<sivang> ah!!!
<hornbeck> if we pull it all than we may mess others up
<sivang> that is bad
<hornbeck> I would suggest checking out the svn
<sivang> Ok, I will write to the mailing list..
<sivang> ok,
<sivang> and then?
<sivang> diffing ?
<hornbeck> do svn diff file > file.diff and patch it
<hornbeck> I think that would work
<sivang> then check it back in?
<hornbeck> than svn commit
<hornbeck> yeah
<sivang> ah
<hornbeck> so that it will be in revision
<sivang> how do the versions get merged?
<hornbeck> I honestly don't know :-)
<hornbeck> they just do
<sivang> amazing.
<hornbeck> you may be able to check out the svn, delete the files and commit what you have back
<hornbeck> I don't know if that would work but it may
<hornbeck> how much has been changed?
<robertj> https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/ProposedIndex/document_view
<robertj> thats my first hack at it
<sivang> btw, have you tried "
<sivang> apt-get install gnome-app-install ?
<sivang> amazing
<sivang> stuff
<robertj> yup
<robertj> I was the one who asked about it in ubuntu-devel to get jdub to pipe up ;)
<robertj> silvang: what do you think of that outline?
<hornbeck> nope have not tried it
<hornbeck> what is it?
<robertj> hornbeck: it's a new installation frontend for packages
<robertj> it mimicks the Application menu structure and you check the applications you want, uncheck those you don't
<robertj> press apply and then it installs/uninstalls to make it work
<hornbeck> nice
<hornbeck> I will check it out
<robertj> hornbeck: did you check out that alternate index?
<hornbeck> I like what you have here, robertj
<hornbeck> I am looking now
<robertj> need to find a place to put in CD burning
<robertj> maybe Adding PAripherals should just become "Paripherals"
<robertj> Since it's internal some people may not think of CD-Burners as paripherals though
<hornbeck> yeah
<hornbeck> a Common Task group
<hornbeck> with cd-burning, email, web browsing
<robertj> But im against having deeper nested indexes
<hornbeck> music
<hornbeck> take out applications
<hornbeck> put that stuff in common task
<hornbeck> what you think?
<robertj> Good
<robertj> I can't think of any other apps people would be interested in that wouldn't be covered by that
<robertj> so actually all of Switchers goes away and become common tasks
<hornbeck> so lets remove applications and add a common task, with music, web browsing, cd burning, email
<hornbeck> yeah
<robertj> And lets promote it to become item #2
<hornbeck> common task?
<robertj> yeah
<robertj> its a tossup
<hornbeck> I think gnome than common task
<hornbeck> so they know how to use gnome before trying to figure out where things are
<robertj> Well I was thinking it could be illustrated 1 2 3
<robertj> The instant gratification section
<hornbeck> hmm
<robertj> is "Learn by Doing" too condescending?
<hornbeck> Learning by doing does not work for people who are not computer inclined
<hornbeck> they need super hand holding
<hornbeck> so a Using Gnome before common task would help because they would learn where things are in the panels
<hornbeck> I teach a linux class and it is amazing how much hand holding is needed for simple things
<robertj> well I was thinking it should show everything
<robertj> start off with the screen
<hornbeck> like one chapter?
<robertj> have a little red circle around the applications menu
<robertj> then a picture of the cursor over the menu with the menu down
<hornbeck> that would be nice
<robertj> Printing costs may be prohibitive though
<hornbeck> so take out the using gnome, and tie it all into learning the other things
<hornbeck> we are looking at seeking a publisher
<hornbeck> so printing cost is something we need not really worry about
<hornbeck> if anything it will be online
<robertj> For now common tasks goes to #3 though
<hornbeck> with Using Gnome #2?
<robertj> yeah
<hornbeck> I am doing a proposed idea under yours
<hornbeck> brb
<robertj> ok
<hornbeck> ok, check that out
<robertj> hrmm, I think its better not to touch synaptic
<robertj> and I think Common Tasks should get it's own chapter
<robertj> That way the first page index can only be two levels deep but they will still all show up
<robertj> let me revise mine again
<hornbeck> ok
<robertj> check that out
<robertj> I left out managing windows
* robertj adds it back in
<hornbeck> I think just a create cd would work, don't need two
<hornbeck> have the two together
<robertj> the two don't have that much to do with each other from a user perspective though
<hornbeck> most people just "burn cd's"
<robertj> one uses Nautlius (that's Gnome to brandma) and one uses Rhythmbox
<hornbeck> ohhh, ok
<hornbeck> I got cha
<hornbeck> that works than
<robertj> or will by Hoary hopefully
<hornbeck> Applications at the bottom can be taken out
<hornbeck> under common task a word processor section would be nice
<hornbeck> instead of a whole section on OpenOffice
<hornbeck> what you think?
* robertj tries again
<robertj> How about make mailing labels?
<robertj> too advanced/
<hornbeck> too advanced
<hornbeck> I changed my section again
<hornbeck> check it out
<robertj> How about Write a Letter instead of Word Processing
<hornbeck> that works
<hornbeck> I must say this is nice having someone give ideas about this :-)
<robertj> I think we should have an applications section in more info or elsewhere
<robertj> left hand column IE icon, right hand column, firefosx
<robertj> left hand colomn photoshop, right hand column gimp
<robertj> left hand iTunes/Mediaplayer, right hand Rhythmbox
<hornbeck> to let them know the equivalent
<robertj> yeah
<hornbeck> that works
<hornbeck> but not in depth howto's for apps
<hornbeck> not a whole OpenOffice section
<robertj> the more info section was not to be a "how to use openoffice"
<robertj> its a "URL is here, order a printed manual here"
<hornbeck> nice
<robertj> aka the "Pimp your Application" section
<hornbeck> it could be "icons/urls/blurb about app"
<hornbeck> hey George
<sivang> yo Geroge!
<George^Deka> hi hornbeck, sivang
<robertj> let's think about that one
<sivang> robertj : your ideas looks similar to what enrico's had envisioned :)
<sivang> nice
<robertj> I mean, everyone will browse through the menu, and there really isn't anything much to add besides "if the three word synopsis interests you, put the application name in google"
<hornbeck> brb
<robertj> changed again
<hornbeck> that looks good
<hornbeck> ok, so are you happy with that layout?
<robertj> yeah
<hornbeck> alright, I will start changing the docbook file, do you have time too go through the wiki and change those pages?
<robertj> I'm concerned about the Get Online seciton
<robertj> actually no, I gotta go in 7 minutes
<robertj> promised the Mrs we would go get hot chocolate ;)
<hornbeck> nice
<robertj> Get Online has a lot of variables
<hornbeck> I have to do stuff with my wife in alittle while also
<robertj> mainly winmodems and pppoe that are concerning
<hornbeck> yeah
<hornbeck> you want to leave that out for now?
<robertj> configure a modem is easy enough for some people but it should probably go under paripherals
<hornbeck> or how could we approch that?
<robertj> yeah
<robertj> and if you have a network with dhcp, well, you really don't need a section
<hornbeck> yeah
<hornbeck> so we will leave that section out.
<hornbeck> Will you have any time tomorrow?
<robertj> maybe it needs a chapter
<robertj> yeah, I will
<robertj> I'll be on at work
<hornbeck> I will start working on this tonight, and I will work tomorrow on getting the wiki up to speed with it
<hornbeck> my first task is to change the docbook version
<robertj> actually, I'd rather we spent time fleshing out some of the subsections first
<hornbeck> such as?
<robertj> Paripherals, System Config, mainly
<robertj> Dual-boot partitioning for installation
<hornbeck> I updated the page
<robertj> Great
<hornbeck> Thats fine, but the problem is if we leave the other's there with this drastic of a change others could start working on it and be completly off base
<robertj> Alrighty, you going to be on alter tonight?
<hornbeck> I would like to at least get a basic layout change and work through that
<hornbeck> I will be on and off for about another three hours
<robertj> ok, I might be back on later
<hornbeck> alright
<robertj> I'd advise telling people to chill until Wed
<hornbeck> I will start working on the changes
<hornbeck> I will mail the list
<robertj> DocBook should be the very last step
<hornbeck> I have more in the docbook than on the wiki
<hornbeck> That is something I work on everyday
<robertj> I've got a very bad opinion of DocBook
<hornbeck> but I can hold on it till we get some more down
<hornbeck> docbook is great
<robertj> its great in a million different ways ;)
<robertj> but it's still a pain to do some simple tasks
<robertj> anyway, Gotta go!
<hornbeck> have fun
<robertj> see you tomorrow if not tonight!
<hornbeck> ok
<robertj> will do, thanks for the chat!
<hornbeck> thanks
<hornbeck> that was fun :-)
<George^Deka> is there a way to install win32 codecs without installing mplayer
<hornbeck> I am not sure
<hornbeck> But I am taking off
<hornbeck> Be back later
<George^Deka> cause i dont really want to install mplayer
<George^Deka> cya later
* robertj_afk returns briefly
<hornbeck> loggin off for the night
<hornbeck> later
<plovs_work> good morning
<hornbeck> good morning
<plovs_work> hornbeck, do you have dns entry already or not yet?
<hornbeck> nope
<hornbeck> I don't have a domain to lock onto it yet
<hornbeck> I would like ubuntudocs.org
<hornbeck> just need to get the money and register it
<hornbeck> than they could be ubuntudocs.org/faq
<plovs_work> hornbeck, sounds good
<hornbeck> ubuntudocs.org/gnome-docs
<hornbeck> ubuntudocs.org/book
<hornbeck> that would work good
<plovs_work> what's the ip again? i'm at work atm
<hornbeck> 69.155.172.150
<hornbeck> how can we get pages on the actual Ubuntu site changed?
<plovs_work> hornbeck, just change them
<hornbeck> the Community Council site has links to the old wiki
<hornbeck> How do I do that?
<hornbeck> there is no edit tab?
<plovs_work> hornbeck, login?
<hornbeck> I did
<hornbeck> it is a locked page
<plovs_work> some pages are locked by the admins
<hornbeck> yeah that is one of them
<hornbeck> and it links to the old wiki for the agenda
<plovs_work> make a link on the wiki called: ThingsThatSuckInTheWiki
<plovs_work> 1. slooooow
<hornbeck> very slow
<plovs_work> 2. needed pages locked
<plovs_work> 3. old wiki still not redirected
<hornbeck> has asw talked in awhile?
<hornbeck> he is always logged in
<hornbeck> but I never hear him say anything
<plovs_work> he's kind of quiet
<hornbeck> I guess
<hornbeck> but I am off to sleep, I have along day tomorrow
<plovs_work> reminds me of the story of the finnish guy who had been dead for six years before they found him
<hornbeck> damn
<plovs_work> hornbeck, ok, goodnight
<hornbeck> night
<trickie> hornbeck, you around?
* sid77 ciao
<lulu> morning all! :o)
<plovs_work> lulu, morning
<lulu> hey! Did you have a good weekend?
<plovs_work> very nice, lots of guests, i'll need a week to rest from the weekend
<plovs_work> good the weekends are a couple of days apart
<trickie> i am glad monday is over... he he 
<lulu> trickie: for some :o)
<lulu> plovs_work: just got your email - working on it.
<plovs> lulu, ok
<sivang> Morning everybody!
<skyrider> sivang: morning
<sivang> lulu : Hi! Any news on an announcement section? ;)
<ChrisH> lulu: Morning... did you read? I booked the flight. :)
<ChrisH> lulu: Wife and mascot will come, too.
<sivang> mascot? he should be wearing a baby's penguin shirt :))
<lulu> sivang: yes - worked on it on Thurs - am going thru my email box - will be back in touch on this one shortly.
<plovs_work> sivang, good morning
<plovs_work> ChrisH, moin
<lulu> ChrisH: that's great news! I did read so :o)
<plovs_work> lulu, any news on moving the old wiki?
<lulu> plovs_work - that should have been done :o( could you check status with  James Troup on that today?
<lulu> tx!
<plovs_work> lulu, ok
<ChrisH> plovs_work: moin
<plovs_work> ChrisH, what do you use for backup?
<ChrisH> plovs_work: afbackup
<plovs_work> ChrisH, thanks
<ChrisH> plovs_work: I also tried bacula which seemed quite nice but it hang here and there. afbackup isn't perfect either (doesn't tell when a tape is broken) but most of the time is okay.
<sivang> plovs_work : that means there should be not more old wiki?
<plovs_work> ChrisH, ok, looking now
<plovs_work> sivang, the old wiki should be moved to oldwiki and the new one should also answer to wiki.ubuntulinux...
<sivang> ah great.
<sivang> this is how it's supposed to be, I think.
<plovs_work> sivang, yeah, think so too
<sivang> hi mercurus
<mercurus> greetings
<sivang> mercurus : are you working on anything specific to the doc team? :) I think I've seen you around..
<mercurus> sivang, I made a start on a multimedia HOWTO
<mercurus> but I finished my last exam 3 hours ago, so I'm having a bit of a break :
<mercurus> :)
<hornbeck> good morning
<sivang> mercurus : ah great, what are you studying?
<mercurus> sivang, law and political science
<plovs_work> hornbeck, i thought you would be sleeping, so i asked you by mail
<hornbeck> I was sleeping :-)
<hornbeck> I just got up
<hornbeck> I walk straight to the computer
<plovs_work> hornbeck, that sounds familiar
<hornbeck> haha
<hornbeck> its like a magnet
<hornbeck> drawing me in
<plovs_work> hornbeck, that's why it's called the web :-)
<hornbeck> ahhh
<hornbeck> your one smart guy plovs
<hornbeck> So anyone else going to download Solaris 10?
<rcaskey_> hello all
<hornbeck> hello
<rcaskey_> how are things going?
<hornbeck> well, they are good. Eating breakfast getting ready for a new day
<plovs_work> hornbeck, you? solaris 10?
<sivang> why the %#$%$ would I want to download solaris? I have Ubuntu :)
<hornbeck> I guess you guys don't like to play around with things
<hornbeck> and sivang: not even two weeks ago you where still running debian exclusivly
<hornbeck> :-)
<plovs_work> hornbeck, i played with solaris 9, i liked some of it
<ChrisH> Solaris is only for ugly people. ;)
<hornbeck> hey enrico, did not see you there
* mercurus is installing a debian sarge system now ...
<hornbeck> man I cannot touch solaris than, I am to pretty
<sivang> hornbeck : I have Ubuntu rnning as my main system for the last 2 moths already 
<enrico> hornbeck: where?
<plovs_work> ChrisH, solaris is for very rich people (thay can afford it to be ugly)
<ChrisH> I have enough licenses at work for our former firewalls. But I'm not ugly enough for it.
<hornbeck> sivang: I thought like a week ago you said you was still on debian, because Ubuntu would not run on your laptop right
<ChrisH> My last experience with the "package management" system of Solaris was... Solaris: "There are unmet dependencies. Do you want to have them resolved?" Me: "Yes" Solaris: "Then do it, dammit! And come back when you have."
<hornbeck> haha
<hornbeck> thats great
<sivang> hornbeck : ah, the laptop is other story, my main system has been running Ubuntu the last 2 moths :))
<plovs_work> so solaris and redhat are related?
<hornbeck> sivang: I misunderstood, I thought the laptop was your main system
<hornbeck> man plovs: you bet me to it
<plovs_work> i never understood why they sticked to rpm, for the rest it is not that bad
<sivang> laptop is , "Dell [don't know how to choose good ACPI supporting BIOS, don't know how to do good PCI controllers]  Inspiron 8200 here : https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=2315
<plovs_work> sivang, a company that uses the word dude in it's commercials should not be trusted
<plovs_work> dude
* enrico bows to THE DUDE
<plovs_work> bows to enrico
<hornbeck> I use a dell 600m, its like butter
<hornbeck> just smoooooooooooth
<hornbeck> everything is supported just fine
<plovs_work> fatty and high cholestrol?
<enrico> fries on high temperatures?
<hornbeck> I am american, we don't do things that are not fatty and high cholestrol
<sivang> plovs_work : something like that..
<sivang> :)
<plovs_work> hornbeck, would be nice to see how solaaris and linux nfs play along now
<hornbeck> see you are coming around now
<hornbeck> I knew that you wanted to try it :-)
<plovs_work> i don't, i'm just addicted to os-es
<plovs_work> i even installed ME once
<hornbeck> man, that was going to far
<hornbeck> I installed freedos once
<plovs_work> but actually i did like some things of solaris, but i like debian better
<plovs_work> freedos, so did i in bochs
<hornbeck> well I never said I was switching my computers to it
<hornbeck> I just said I was going to download it and play with it
* sivang would love to try FreeBSD though
<hornbeck> FreeBSD is nice
<plovs_work> freebsd is nice actually
<sivang> I reckon it's much better then solaris
<plovs_work> well...
<hornbeck> same guy made both
<sivang> he did?
<sivang> hmmm
<hornbeck> well, same guy made BSD and solaris
<hornbeck> Bill Joy
<plovs_work> there is a lot of money behind solaris
<plovs_work> solaris is bsd+lots of other stuff on top
<hornbeck> Bill Joy was on the main team for BSD in the 70's and was one of Sun's founders
<plovs_work> off course it is only really good on sun hardware
<sivang> what bsd?
<sivang> or, freebsd?
<hornbeck> Sun
<hornbeck> Solaris is only really good on Sun hardware
<sivang> btw, I thought there was an army of developers behind freebsd, not one person.
<hornbeck> BSD was before freebsd
<hornbeck> Bill Joy was one of lead developers
<hornbeck> freebsd is alot of people
<hornbeck> I was saying they both have their roots in the same guy
<sivang> ah ok, could you believe that the people who made winNT /(XP?) are some of those who created OpenVMS ?
<sivang> :)
<hornbeck> what is OpenVMS?
<plovs_work> sivang, not openVMS VMS
<sivang> sorry
<sivang> VMS
<sivang> yes
<hornbeck> ok
<sivang> not OpenVMS
<sivang> plovs_work : OpenVMS was made by digital also?
<sivang> || what's the difference between the two?
<plovs_work> sivang, i ask the mighty google
<plovs_work> history of NT:
<plovs_work> http://www.winntmag.com/Articles/Index.cfm?IssueID=97&ArticleID=4494
<plovs_work> or how they took a stable OS and made it fundamentally insecure 
<plovs_work> yes, all digital guys
<plovs_work> together under cutler
<hornbeck> well guys, I am going to go after my boss now about UPS, Backup drives, and a better router for the server
<hornbeck> I will be back when I get them
<plovs_work> hornbeck, did you know that openwall is build on top  of freebsd?
<hornbeck> yes
<hornbeck> you mean monowall?
<plovs_work> hornbeck, yes off-course , duh
<hornbeck> you are just OpenPlovs today huh?
<plovs_work> hornbeck, i was thinking about openbsd when i wrote that
<hornbeck> I think I need openhornbeck.org
<plovs_work> ;-)
<plovs_work> FreePlovs.org
<plovs_work> hmm, that sounds like kevin whatshisname
<hornbeck> that makes you sound like you are in jail though
<plovs_work> mitnick
<plovs_work> yeah, plovaris
<plovs_work> plovix
<hornbeck> hornix
<plovs_work> hahaha
<plovs_work> let's stay with Ubuntu
<hornbeck> damn
<hornbeck> but I am off to get stuff
<plovs_work> ok, see ya
<rcaskey_> Linux is making me happy
<rcaskey_> unlike OS X, it does not segfault randomly and unmount devices with no errors
<plovs_work> rcaskey_, adding more memory always helps with OS X
<rcaskey_> 512
<rcaskey_> not great, but it shouldn't segfault and behave that badly
<plovs_work> hmm, good thing you can install Ubuntu then :-)
<lulu> sivang: ping
<rcaskey_> %s/can\ install/have\ installed
<sivang> lulu : pong
<plovs_work> rcaskey_, are you interested in writing or helping with documenting ubuntu?
<rcaskey_> yup
<rcaskey_> I worked with hornbeck yesterday to revise the top-level index
<plovs_work> rcaskey_,  top-level index of what?
<plovs_work> rcaskey_, the faq?
<rcaskey_> the book
<lulu> sivang: we are good for go on the news section - you need to create a news item (an announcement) and it should publish fine. 
<sivang> lulu : ah great! thanks!
<lulu> sivang: the portlet should appear below quick links and above Amazon - we are customising Amazon to show one book and rotate them randomly, soon.
<sivang> that's nice
<lulu> sivang: let me know when you've published one and I'll have a look. Tx :o)
<plovs_work> rcaskey_, ah, ok
<sivang> thanks lulu and also thank the others who munge the zope :)
<lulu> BradB's our man :o)
<sivang> lulu : am I go to just go and publish? is there anyway I can sumbit it for review to you before I got and make it public?
* sid77_away yabooting ubuntu!
<plovs_work> sivang, i suppose that's a yes 
<sivang> plovs_work : I just wanted to make sure, you have an option in the plone - to keep something private untill you set it as published
<lulu> sivang: yes publish. I need to check the default workflow of it. I'm sure it's fine - go ahead and I'll get back to ya.
<plovs_work> sivang, knock and you'll be opened as they say...
<sivang> lulu : thanks
<plovs_work> sivang, where will the news items pop up?
<sivang> plovs_work : somwhere upper then the amazong item I think
<WW> Hey doc folks.
<lulu> sivang: we have an ubuntu workflow that replaces the plone workflow. we have the default help centre (documentation) workflow that works a little differently and then folder workflow. I think the news item is part of help centre....
* sid77 re
<WW> Here's a small request... add a FAQ (or something) about the "warty-updates" repository.  I'd do it myself, but I don't really know what it is!
<sivang> lulu : ok, I think I'm starting to grasp it. but it does display in the main mapge? (not /docu...) this is important in order to ease new comers on navigating to stuff :)
<plovs_work> WW, what do you mean? how to update to warty?
* lulu goes and has a look
<WW> plovs_work: No, just an explanation of the "warty-updates" repository... what it is, what is Ubuntu's policy about adding to it, etc.
* sivang goes for a break. lulu, msg me with your findings, thanks :)
<lulu> sivang: will do
<WW> plovs_work: ... how and when to use it, etc.
<plovs_work> WW, i'll take a look at it tonoght
<WW> plovs_work: I could find nothing about it on the Ubuntu web page, and it is not in sources.list by default.  I only learned about it through the forums.
<plovs_work> WW, forums link?
<WW> plovs_work: just a sec...
<WW> plovs_work: For example, this one show a sample sources.list that contains warty-updates: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=3691
<WW> plovs_work: One more tidbit: Kamion in #ubuntu said there is a bug filed about sources.list not containing warty-updates.  I haven't looked for the bug yet.
<WW> plovs_work: The bug is 3122.  This bug also mentions the lack of documentation :)
<plovs_work> WW, thanks, i'll look at it today
<rcaskey_> plovs: have you seen http://ubuntulinux.org/wiki/LearningUbuntuOutline yet?
<lulu> sivang: ping
<lulu> sivang: u there?
<sivang> lulu : back, but I have to go again in a minute
<sivang> lulu : what have you come with?
<sivang> :)
<lulu> sivang: ok - we seem to be having a problem
<sivang> lulu : it doesn't add the section?
<lulu> i saw u created the news item in undo_form
<lulu> can u tell me where it's saved the item?
<lulu> can u send me the link please?
<lulu> did you publish it, or keep it visible?
<sivang> lulu : ah I didn't IMHO :) I just closed the browser window after trinyg to create one, as a test merely
<sivang> lulu : lemme check
<sivang> wiki's fast though.
<sivang> was slow last night
<lulu> ok - please redo a proper announcement that u want to keep and publish so i can see where it appears.
<sivang> ok, lulu, will do.
<sivang> I can't find nothing of the last try BTW
<sivang> where did you find it?
<lulu> only in the undo form where I see a news item was created.
<lulu> but I couldn't find the actual doc anywhere....
<lulu> please redo and we'll go from there.....tx!
<sivang> no prob
<lulu> plovs_work:ping
<lulu> sivang:ping
<sivang> lulu : pong, working on it , I want to make a news item about gnome-app-install
<lulu> sivang: ok - will you be ready in the next half hr or so?
<sivang> lulu : yes, I will ping you when it's done..I'm in the process of collecting info about it
<lulu> sivang: ok.. np
<rcaskey_> sivang: it's not very, err, done
<rcaskey_> I'd hld back
<sivang> lulu : the WYSIWYG editor oopses on me, won't let me change font size. etc..
<sivang> clicking the 'fonts' icon gives nothing, trying text formatting.
<sivang> ok, this helps.
<lulu> Sivang: you can turn kupu off in your preferences....there are bugs in it with Firefox...
<sivang> lulu : ok, thanks
<sivang> lulu : how can I create a code secion in kupu ?
<lulu> sivang: in kupu - I click on source and do it in html <pre> and  </pre>
<sivang> lulu : ok, thanks again!
<littlegreenman> sivang, hi!
<littlegreenman> sivang, do u know how to get mp3 files playing on ubuntu?
<sivang> littlegreenman : hi!
<sivang> lulu : just added the news item, can't see where it went...
<plovs> hi guys, gals!
<plovs> lulu, yes?
<plovs> plovs_work, yes, i saw the outline
* plovs is talking to himself
<plovs> rcaskey_, yes I saw the outline
<sivang> littlegreenman : http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/RestrictedFormats
<rcaskey_> plovs: any thoughts?
<littlegreenman> sivang, yeah, just been there... don't think it's helping, the music player of ubuntu does not play...
<littlegreenman> gonna try totem
<littlegreenman> no sound....
<plovs> rcaskey_, chapter 2 is basically the gnome manual
<sivang> littlegreenman : you can try totem, totem-xine, XMMS also plays MP3 given the right plugin.
<littlegreenman> sivang, damn... the volume was down!!!!
<plovs> rcaskey_, adding and removing software, very usefull i hope
* littlegreenman feels silly
<sivang> littlegreenman : hmmmmm .....;-P
<sivang> :)
<littlegreenman> :D why does it come down by default? and why do i blame ubuntu right away?
<littlegreenman> :D
<littlegreenman> live and learn.... it's not all ubuntu's fault... 
<littlegreenman> :)
<plovs> littlegreenman, welcome to the world of music! and yes it always does that and we all hate it
<littlegreenman> plovs :)
<plovs> rcaskey_, basically it looks good, but a lot needs to be written in a couple of months
<sivang> plovs : maybe this should be noted somewhere on Room101 ?
<plovs> sivang, good idea, i really hate it when it does that, i also have been staring at the sound-system
* plovs goes to buys some fruit
<sivang> littlegreenman : would you add it? go to http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/Room101, add what you just did, try make it understandable as much to other people :)
<littlegreenman> yep :)
<sivang> littlegreenman : thanks
<lulu> night all :o)
<sivang> night lulu
<lulu> sivang: let's get that announcement done tomorrow when you're done, ok?
<sivang> lulu : I was done :) but couldn't find it..
<sivang> never mind, tommorow, tommorow :)
<lulu> sivang: ok - send me an email with the details...
<sivang> lulu : I will try find them :) close the window since..
<lulu> sivang: you've added a news item right?
<sivang> lulu : yes, can't find it no more though
<lulu> but u are working on it again aren't you?
<sivang> lulu : I redid it
<sivang> lulu : saved,
<sivang> still - can't find it
<sivang> never mind, we'll see tommroow
<sivang> don't want to hold you 
<lulu> ok - weird. will you report a bug and file it on BradB please in Bugzilla?  thanks :o)
<lulu> he will be able to work on it today.
<lulu> should be able to :o)
<sivang> yes
<lulu> sivang: thanks!
<Fido_DD> #bdsm
<littlegreenman> sivang, https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/CantPlayMP3s
<littlegreenman> :)
<sivang> superb! obligatta!
<sivang> (or whatever it's spelled)
<littlegreenman> :D obrigado :D
<sivang> ok, at least I tried littlegreenman
<sivang> :)
<littlegreenman> actually, if you are a woman you say obrigada, if you are a man you say obrigado
<littlegreenman> :D
<sivang> ok, thanks
<littlegreenman> and a very good attempt at that :D
<littlegreenman> that's actually how it sounds... :)
* littlegreenman meant no harm by it.... :)
<sivang> ofcourse
<sivang> I heared mostly brazillian portougese, so..
<littlegreenman> :)
<sivang> anyway, people I'm out for today...not so well..see you all tommorow
<hornbeck> server is going down for about five minutes for install of UPS
<plovs> hornbeck, you obviously do not understand what an UPS is used for
<littlegreenman> LOL
<ChrisH> :)
<rcaskey_> I've got a UPS that lasts 20 seconds on my machines
<ChrisH> "Server is going-down for high-availability."
<rcaskey_> it's a consumer ups with like 6 servers plugged into it. It's enough to keep the departmental webserver on during the flickers we have
<plovs> what's the bugzilla address?
<hornbeck> UPS is in place :-)
<rcaskey_> whee
<plovs> hornbeck, checked svn works
<hornbeck> good deal
<hornbeck> I checked it to
<plovs> hornbeck, what router did you get?
<rcaskey_> hornbeck: thought any more about the structure of the book?
<hornbeck> I will be putting in a nicer router tonight
<hornbeck> are you robert?
<rcaskey_> ja
<hornbeck> cool
<hornbeck> just like to know who I am talking to
<rcaskey_> robertj@work ;)
<rcaskey_> sorry about that
<hornbeck> I think we should go with the index we came up with last night for now
<rcaskey_> No elaboration?
<hornbeck> as we go if we see other things that need to be added we can add
<hornbeck> the problem is, if we start adding to much, we will not get it done
<rcaskey_> I think it's the other way around
<hornbeck> really
<rcaskey_> if we elaborate more people can "get the picture" and write a few paragraphs
<hornbeck> ok, I am open to suggestions
<rcaskey_> I'd suggest we figure out what we want to cover in section 1
<hornbeck> the installing section?
<rcaskey_> yeah
<rcaskey_> I put Ubuntu through the wife test
<rcaskey_> and it failed on the partitioning stage of installation
<hornbeck> I put it through the boss test :-)
<rcaskey_> how'd he do?
<hornbeck> mine failed in every section almost
<hornbeck> we had to completly start over like three times
<rcaskey_> what is there besides partioning to fail at?
<hornbeck> usernaem
<hornbeck> partitioning
<rcaskey_> oh
<rcaskey_> Apple does a good job with their username
<rcaskey_> you put in your first and last name and it concatonates and truncates
<hornbeck> computer name threw him off also
<rcaskey_> You put in Robert Caskey it creates "robertcaskey"
<hornbeck> thats a good idea
<hornbeck> wish I could afford a apple to try it out
<rcaskey_> Computer name should be set without asking
<rcaskey_> hornbeck: You can emulate OS X now if you have a beefy machine and a lot of patience
<hornbeck> I think each part of the installer should be gone over pretty good in the book
<rcaskey_> I wonder how much that will change before Hoary 2
<rcaskey_> err doh, hoary ;)
<hornbeck> I wonder also
<plovs> it's said to not to change much
<plovs> no graphical installer etc
<hornbeck> well we will go with what we have and try to make last minute changes when it comes time
<plovs> hornbeck, you can try osx with pearpc, i tried it, quite nice
<hornbeck> you have to have a OSX disk though
<plovs> we have a g4 at work, i just used the install cd's from that one
<rcaskey_> hornbeck: did you know their was an Ubuntu in a Nutshell bounty?
<hornbeck> yes
<hornbeck> I was thinking this may quilify for it :-)
<rcaskey_> I'm gaim if you are
<hornbeck> but I don't know what they are looking for
<rcaskey_> how much is the cash?
<hornbeck> don't know
<hornbeck> we can ask in -devel
<rcaskey_> I'm trying to log into the wiki to look about but it is slooo
<plovs> hornbeck, http://news.com.com/Sun+to+set+Solaris+free%2C+after+a+fashion/2100-1016_3-5450749.html
<plovs> hornbeck, solaris prizes
<plovs> hornbeck, 120$ - 360$ a year sure beats redhat
<hornbeck> ok
<sivang> hornbeck : have you asked on -devel regarding the nutshell bounty?
<hornbeck> yeah, I did a second ago
<sivang> hornbeck : anybody answered?
<hornbeck> I have to get ahold of Jdub
<littlegreenman> hi hornbeck, Diogo Heleno here (pt transl)
<littlegreenman> hornbeck, got ur msg
<hornbeck> cool
* littlegreenman way of saying hi
<hornbeck> how you doing
<littlegreenman> good... tired... working... getting cross eyed :D
<littlegreenman> but loving my ubuntu
<littlegreenman> :)
<hornbeck> same here, I am waiting to go pick up my new router
<hornbeck> hoping they call soon
<littlegreenman> if it's like the washing machine delivery people... they never call... or they call but then it's not there.....
<hornbeck> well my boss is meeting me at the store to purchase it and I am waiting for him to call
<sivang> hornbeck : your boss is sponsering the server?
<hornbeck> sivang: yes
<sivang> hornbeck : for the svn?
<sivang> nice
<hornbeck> yeah, in return I am going to host a few pages for him
<sivang> ah cool
<hornbeck> I think so
<hornbeck> he is a good guy
<hornbeck> bought all the stuff to do backup's to
<hornbeck> and a UPS, and now the router
#ubuntu-doc 2004-11-27
* robertj_afk is back
<hornbeck> ok, the router is here!
<hornbeck> I will be taking the server down in a few, but just for about five minutes
<hornbeck> I will make sure no one is connected, but please don't connect
<hornbeck> I'll be back when its done 
<hornbeck_> server is still down, my new router is being  a bitch
<hornbeck_> just was letting you guys know it may be a few
<hornbeck_> bye
<hornbeck_> server is back up
<sivang> nice
<George^Deka> hi all
<hornbeck_> hello
<hornbeck> robertj: you around?
<plovs> morning
<hornbeck> morning
<hornbeck> well night for me, almost bedtime
<hornbeck> speaking of bedtime, goodnight guys
<hornbeck> see you in seven hours
<plovs> hornbeck, night
<trickie> hello
<George^Deka> hi trickie
<George^Deka> think i might be having a fair few typos my new theme has grey text in the xchat imput box
* sid77 ciao
<trickie> George^Deka, i get a few wierd xchat color things sometimes
<trickie> George^Deka, how are you?
<plovs_work> morning all
<lulu> morning :o) 
<plovs_work> lulu, what kind of extra details where you talking about yesterday? My info looks pretty complete to my untrained eyes
<plovs_work> lulu, or do i need to add exact time of arrival?
<lulu> plovs_work: if all info that's needed on the wiki is complete, then u done :o)
<plovs_work> lulu, ok, and thanks
<plovs_work> lulu, will you send extra info on how to get from the airport to the hotel, how to get to  the conference, etc or use the wiki and ask mako?
<ChrisH> moin $ALL
<plovs_work> ChrisH, moin
<lulu> ploves_work: as more info comes available, it will be posted on the wiki. I know as much as you do at this point :o)
<lulu> plovs_work: there is quite a bit of detail on the wiki on Flying In to Barcelona and getting to Mataro....have u seen it?
<sivang> morning all!
<lulu> sivang:hiya
<sivang> lulu : Hi :)
<lulu> sivang: Introducing Gnom application installer...is that the news item?
<sivang> lulu : yes :)
<sivang> lulu : how did you find it?
<lulu> good - ok so it's there - and it's visible, but not yet published. Are you still working on it? Do you want to put links to further information in it?
<lulu> sivang:it's in the contents page under Ubuntu section.
<lulu> sivang: did u add the large plone folder?
<sivang> lulu : ok, leave it unpublished. I need to add to it, telling about it's stableness and make the console code look as 'code' :)
<lulu> sivang: ok - you publish it when you are ready and the news portlet should then appear on the page.
<sivang> lulu : to the docs/support section? I experimented with it, and then couldn't remove it. If you can, I would appriciate it.
<sivang> lulu : ok thanks, sorry for not opening a bug - was way unwell eventually yesterday, and among other things I had to do..well, firgured I opened it today , but good to know it's already fixed! thank you!
<lulu> sivang: you want news/announcements to appear in the documentation section, or in every page ont he site?
<sivang> lulu : I would love it to appear on the main page, so people won't miss our news when not entering the support/doc section :)
<lulu> sivang:news items will appear as a portlet on every page.
<lulu> sivang: did u create the large plone folder?
<lulu> and empty folder?
<lulu> it has nothing in it and no name, so I'm going to delete it.
<sivang> lulu : ok, thanks
<sivang> lulu : :) --> <sivang> lulu : to the docs/support section? I experimented with it, and then couldn't remove it. If you can, I would appriciate it.
<lulu> sivang: oh - sorry - it was not appearing in that section at all...I misunderstood you - apologies mate - all removed and looking good. :o)
<sivang> lulu : thanks
<plovs> sivang, hi, how are you today?
<plovs> lulu, yes, thanks i saw that i was just wondering how to get from the hotel to the Tecnocampus, and will you send some info on the hotel as well? (i'm just excited then i always ask lots of questions)
<lulu> plovs: great you are excited. The tecnocampus is a short walk from the hotel, but daily venues and the schedule are still being finalised.
<plovs> lulu, ok, thanks
<lulu> plovs: np :o)
<cenerentola> sorry...
<cenerentola> ive got an how-to on how to bypass error 21 with ubuntu live cd...
<cenerentola> should i upload it to the wiki? which section in?
<sivang> cenerentola : Room101, add something to note it's related to the live cd :)
<sivang> cenerentola : buena sierra btw :)
<cenerentola> ....noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
<cenerentola> spanish is not italian... everybody.... let's say "Buona Sera"
<cenerentola> ... even if its noon...
<sid77> rofl
<sid77> cenerentola, it's noon only here...
<cenerentola> aroftl, *also*?
<cenerentola> ...ahhh... 
<sid77> LOL
<sid77> cenerentola, try with /whois ubuntu-it ;)
<sivang> cenerentola : ah sorry
<sivang> cenerentola : but thanks for the document btw!
<cenerentola> sivang: merely joking
<cenerentola> ok ill tell you, before the ml, other projects i take care of in my mind
<sivang> ml = mailing list?
<cenerentola> since i started dreaming of an UbuntuLinux ITALIA thing... [ml -> yes] 
<cenerentola> loads of projects came up while dreaming at night...
<cenerentola> 1) im setting up a framework for "how-to development"...
<cenerentola> ---excursus starts here---
<cenerentola> since with btlug we're pushing ubuntu in schools, public administrations, voluntary associations... so on
<cenerentola> we HAVE the need of supporting REAL, NEVER HEARD OF, computer-HOMINIDES
<cenerentola> like clerks, literature teachers, and so on...
<cenerentola> ---excursus is over---
<sivang> great
<cenerentola> so i thought that itd be a nice thing to create [im talking about Ubuntulinux italia] 
<cenerentola> a framework to produce how-to:
<cenerentola> [in current language]  because of the fact that every installation is different from machine to machine [and if the hominides read an howto where dpkg is used, thi is more and more true] 
<cenerentola> i thought of a place [: like subversion]  where i can upload an how-to and all the doc-team members can add their how-to following theyre experience to create an hypertext like "if what appear is -xyz- click here otherwise if no exceptions are being thrown click-here
<cenerentola> ..
<cenerentola> so not a mere how-to that, by definition, CAN'T cover all the possible aspects, that is WAYS, of an installation...
<cenerentola> but an hypertext that can follow you in any circumstances [or at least those lived by doc-team-members] ..
<cenerentola> id love to hear you understand me, because i know my english hasnt been beautiful: im talkin in italian with my auntie, chatting spanish with a friend... and im messing all the thing up
<sivang> cenerentola : but isn't that what the wiki is for ? :)
<cenerentola> well italian hominides cant speak english...
<sivang> there will be multi lingual support , it's being worked on.
<cenerentola> and a wiki is not portable: i cant save it on my hd... a pdf created with a script does the thing
<cenerentola> or not?
<cenerentola> ??'
<cenerentola> hey dont leave me alone.. im afraid of the dark ;)
<sivang> well, there are plans to have some of it available off line, I suggest you post your ideas to the list, see what people say.
<cenerentola> so ure not approving it... ok... ;)
<sivang> it's not anything like that, there isn't a "one" who approves things. This is a community project, therefor community concencus must be reached before starting anything or doing anything which is more than cosmetic changes, so it can be discussed among community members. It's just how things are done here...try to understand.
<cenerentola> mmm... yep i was talking personally...
<cenerentola> if you liked it...
<cenerentola> ex: i like cameron diaz, but you may not
<cenerentola> ...Einstein's General Relativity...
<cenerentola> it all depends from the point of view... i was just asking yours... ehehe;)
<cenerentola> ciao
<plovs_work> hi guys
<lulu> hi again and Hi George.. I owe u an email..apologies for the delay...
<sivang> up plovsy!
<sivang> gemme five!
<sivang> :)
* plovs_work gives 5$
<plovs_work> sivang, how's it going?
<sivang> pretty fine I guess, making sketches for pages etc..
<George^Deka> hi all
<George^Deka> lulu: thats cool i have been busy too
<George^Deka> hi sivang
<sivang> hey there, George^Deka
<George^Deka> hi plovs
<plovs_work> hi George^Deka
<lulu> hornbeck: around?
<hornbeck> morning
<sivang> morning
<hornbeck> hey, hows it going
<plovs_work> hornbeck, morning, very fine
* plovs_work is playing with openbsd
<hornbeck> plovs_work: I like openbsd :-)
<hornbeck> sivang: do people really need acceptence for a wiki page?
<plovs_work> hornbeck, acceptance?
<hornbeck> his new email
<sivang> hornbeck : s/accaptance/submission
<hornbeck> Preliminaries for establishing a work acceptence process:
<sivang> accaptment may not be the best word here,
<hornbeck> that is the thing with a wiki though is you can just add a page where you see fit
<plovs_work> sivang, atm people just drop it in the wiki
<hornbeck> it will deter people if they have to write a email along with writing the page
<hornbeck> I  know I will not remember to post for every new page
<sivang> lulu also suggested that
<sivang> it would enable us to keep track,
<sivang> and the neatly link pages up
<hornbeck> than it needs not to be a wiki than
<plovs_work> sivang, i am not for or against anything yet, but this deeats the whole purpose of the wiki
<plovs_work> defeats
<sivang> hmm, ok, drop the approval nature that is implied,
<plovs_work> sivang, or do you mean how to get your doc incorperated in the main docs?
<sivang> just the keep track infrastructure
<sivang> both
<sivang> for both offline / wiki 
<hornbeck> I could see this for a main doc that is offline or something
<plovs_work> sivang, still does not work with wiki, wiki is non-linear ub structure
<plovs_work> s/ub/in
<sivang> so wiki by nature is chaos ?:)
<plovs_work> sivang, yes
<hornbeck> sivang: my nature wiki is very chaos
<hornbeck> it is anarchy in its finist :-)
<sivang> hey again lulu
<sivang> we're discussing my last post to ML
<hornbeck> hey lulu, you was looking for me?
<plovs_work> sivang, i like your points, but have a problem with seeing how ti implement it
<plovs_work> sivang, i like: Establish the documentation testing team
<plovs_work> sivang, problem: no infrastructure/no people
<plovs_work> sivang, i like: contacting a person
<lulu> hornbeck: hiya - I'm responding to the license email you sent from dev...in a bit...
<plovs_work> sivang, problem: the change links are *still* broken 
<sivang> change links ?
<plovs_work> sivang, in the recent-changes page, who made the change
<sivang> oh
<plovs_work> sivang, svn-server needs to be integrated with the doc-team, but first we need to make sure it works :-)
<hornbeck> I sent a license email?
<hornbeck> sivang: I sent a reply to your post with my thoughts
<plovs_work> sivang, if we want something like this then we need to hack zwiki
<sivang> thanks hornbeck
<lulu> sivang: did you cc the list?
<sivang> lulu : yes
<lulu> tx :o)
<hornbeck> hey robert
<plovs_work> sivang, added my 2c
<rcaskey_> heya
<sivang> plovs_work : thanks
<George^Deka> plovs_work: got your gmail pop3 activated yet - got mine today but dont know if i will use it kind of like the confort of having everything on the server
<hornbeck> rcaskey_: you got time to work on the index?
<plovs_work> George^Deka, got it today, i'll test it first
<hornbeck> got my pop access also :-)
<George^Deka> plovs_work: in response to your email how about when something becomes final it is moved to docbook and off the wiki, and them imported back into support and we then maintain it on the svn server
<George^Deka> plovs_work: wiki should only be for draft docs, then they move to svn
<George^Deka> and sorry i have not had any progress yet on a ReST to Docbook converter
<George^Deka> i will address this all in a email but fleshing it out here first
<sivang> We have some people for doc test team,
<sivang> see http://wiki.ubuntulinux.org/DocumentationTeam
<plovs_work> George^Deka, agree with you, send it to the ml, so we can see everybodies opinion formally
<George^Deka> sivang: 1) why use the old wiki  2) should we not update the list of core team
<George^Deka> plovs: will do
<rcaskey_> hornbeck: yeah
<sivang> George^Deka : http://www.ubuntulinux.org/community/teams/documentation <-- seen this?
<rcaskey_> I looked at "XP in a Nutshell"
<rcaskey_> it's a 640 page reference
<George^Deka> sivang: a while ago checking now - is the one on the wiki removed or pointing to the support page
<sivang> should be used anyhow
<sivang> so no care was taken to point
<sivang> it
<sivang> however, this might apply for some old new news item :)
<sivang> lulu : what do you think?
<lulu> sivang: sorry - the question is?
<hornbeck> rcaskey: yes, linux in a nutshell is very long also
<lulu> sivang: updating the core team on the wiki or on the web?
<sivang> lulu : George^Deka pointed that maybe we should have something very apparent to tell old wiki is not longer used, neither should be looked 
<George^Deka> sivang: i have this bad problem of allways looking on the wiki not the static site - my bad i know
<rcaskey_> That kind of reminds me of the manual I had from Progeny
<rcaskey_> great toilet reading but otherwise useless
<rcaskey_> also "Redhat Linux Unleashed 2"
<plovs_work> duplicate info should be removed, see ml
<hornbeck> rcaskey: I would like a useful, but still kinda short
<hornbeck> rcaskey: not 500 pages
<rcaskey_> It had chapters on Linux, Perl, X development in C, X in C++, it was just so broad as to be useless
<hornbeck> right
<hornbeck> well, we have a good outline
<rcaskey_> hornbeck: I like the direction we are going in
<rcaskey_> I say we just flesh out what we have
<hornbeck> yes
<hornbeck> let me pull it up
<lulu> George^Deka: The old wiki will be moved. James Troup has promised to do it this week. It's been frozen. I can get a message put up that it is no longer in use too, if needed.
<rcaskey_> thats LearningUbuntuOutline on the wiki for anyone else interested
<hornbeck> hehe, I am still looking at Proposed Index
<George^Deka> lulu: i didnt actually say that sivang put words in my mouth - but yeah its cool
<hornbeck> ok I changed to the real one
<George^Deka> check ML my reply
<lulu> George^Deka:np - 
<rcaskey_> Do you want me working on the proposed index?
<hornbeck> rcaskey: no, lets stick to LearningUbuntuOutline
<rcaskey_> oky
<hornbeck> rcaskey: I think system configuration is a nice starting point for us right now
<hornbeck> what would you like to see in that
<hornbeck> I think, network, dial up
<hornbeck> most things in Computer -> Sytem Configuration
<hornbeck> go over each Item
<George^Deka> i think samba, if i ever get lots of spare time i am going to investigate making a addon to the properties of folders for samba sharing in python of cource
<rcaskey_> horn: give me a second
<hornbeck> ok
<rcaskey_> I'm at work and need to install vnc on my ubuntu machine
<hornbeck> you don't have Ubuntu at work????????
<hornbeck> how dare you :-)
<hornbeck> I am getting paid right now, I am sitting at home, and I don't have a job for anothe hour :-)
<rcaskey_> horn: who do you work for?
<hornbeck> I work for a company called AA Computer Services
<hornbeck> I am a Sysadmin
<rcaskey_> need anymore ;)
<hornbeck> but I do most my work from home
<George^Deka> hornbeck: we are not all as lucky as you some are in native winblows enviroments - but maybe if i recompiled my kernel cause we are totally terminal services
<hornbeck> nope just hired three people
<hornbeck> George^Deka: I work on windows all day long, but the laptop comes with me so I always have linux near by
<hornbeck> I also have alot of down time
<hornbeck> so I can program
<George^Deka> hornbeck: we are not all so lucky to own a laptop
<hornbeck> George^Deka: where there is a will there is a way
<rcaskey_> doh, actually gotta work
<hornbeck> you have to be very motivated to suceed and get the things you want
<rcaskey_> brb in 2 min
<hornbeck> ok
<sivang> George^Deka : this has already been done by gnome-system-tools, on hoary it's under Applications - > system - > sahres
<sivang> or somethignliek that
<George^Deka> sivang: well im on warty and i cant see it
<hornbeck> sivang: thank you for that, I did not know that was there :-)
* George^Deka wonders if there is a warty package
<sivang> well, I've recently become close to it's developer so I know stuff :)
<hornbeck> sivang: it will not take my password though
<George^Deka> found a package on warty
<George^Deka> well now i realise, gnome-sys-tools is in warty just didnt have the shares part
<sivang> yes
<sivang> that's why I Said it's only on hoary currently
<sivang> :)
<George^Deka> sivang: thought maybe gnome-system-tools may have only been added to def desktop for hoary - i really need to install hoary oneday
<George^Deka> sivang: anything else cool out of interest
<sivang> yes you should many nice thing..
<sivang> Add/Remove programs menu
<sivang> :)
<sivang> out of the world cool
<sivang> one click install
<hornbeck> rcaskey_: I have to run out, I will be back soon
<rcaskey_> hornbeck: hehe, ok
<rcaskey_> see you then
<hornbeck> well, are you back real quick?
<rcaskey_> I am
<hornbeck> ok, I have a few
<hornbeck> on system configuration, how do you feel about just doing a write up for each in the system configuration menu
<hornbeck> that way nothing is left out of that?
<rcaskey_> I think that would be the way to do it
<hornbeck> ok
<hornbeck> what are your ideas for Peripherals, and installing hardware
<hornbeck> installing hardware is supposed to just happen, with project utopia
<hornbeck> I don't really know what to put there
<rcaskey_> Hardware should give an idea of what is and isn't supported basically
<hornbeck> hmm
<hornbeck> we could be way off on that though
<hornbeck> if we list some stuff but that stuff becomes supported by release it would be bad
<George^Deka> sivang: because i am only on dialup now not going to get hoary just yet - but do you were i might be able to get some screenies of add/remove programs
<hornbeck> people may not try because we say it is not supported
<rcaskey_> I think we just need to keep in touch with the list and keep it updated as hoary progresses
<rcaskey_> any last minute additions can't be teseted enough to be supported in any real sense anyway
<hornbeck> how about "Configuring Hardware" instead
<hornbeck> it can include, video cards, sound cards and such
<hornbeck> sounds alittle better to me
<rcaskey_> Sounds awkward I think
<rcaskey_> and Video card configuration should be a pointer over to System Configuration
<hornbeck> true
<hornbeck> I think Installing Hardware just makes it sound like we are going to walk them through installing a new sound card, from cracking the case on
<plovs_work> i am using gmail-pop forwarding now and it is nice
<hornbeck> man the wiki is slow
<hornbeck> seems to get slower everyday
<George^Deka> just read on the gnome-sys-tools page something about gnome control center - what is that ? similar to the KDE one (as some may know this is my first experiance with gnome in years like RH 5 or 6 when it was just a little baby)
<George^Deka> hornbeck: you can say that again
<plovs_work> George^Deka, just type gnome-control-center
<plovs_work> George^Deka, and you'll see
<plovs_work> hornbeck, soon we'll be working backwards
<hornbeck> plovs: yes
<plovs_work> do you guys have spam-filtering in evolution?
<hornbeck> I don't think I do
<hornbeck> I have never set it up
<plovs_work> we need a howto on that, the faq question is too short
<hornbeck> ok
<hornbeck> I can add that to my todo list
<rcaskey_> hornbeck: on the other hand, I think some people might expect that, and that it's appropriate to have a section that points them to their motherboard/system manual
<hornbeck> I think that may be out of our scoop
<hornbeck> recheck the wiki page
<hornbeck> also System Configuration has Synaptic in it
<George^Deka> plovs_work: oh so thats all, at least it shows me some hidden stuff not in the menus, thought it might be like the ultra cool kde one
<hornbeck> that takes care of Adding and Removing programs, what do you want to do about that
<hornbeck> George^Deka: Whats KDE ?
<hornbeck> :-)
<rcaskey_> horn: no synaptic
<rcaskey_> gnome-app-install or whatever it's called
<George^Deka> plovs_work: the FAQ is incorrect anyone all of the menus are in different places in my version (warty PR, still aint upgraded)
<hornbeck> why no synaptic
<hornbeck> synaptic is how people will be installing software
<hornbeck> it is in the system configuration menu
<hornbeck> we cannot skip something that is right out in front of people
<rcaskey_> Horneck: I wouldn't be suprised if it went away for Hoary
<hornbeck> says who?
<George^Deka> hornbeck: you j/k'ing right - well i was using it until 3 weeks ago
<rcaskey_> well gnope-app-install is being custom developed for hoary
<hornbeck> George: yes I was
<plovs_work> George^Deka, i'll do some research, and it's sad but the kde one is better
<hornbeck> if we can see that synaptic is not going to be there than yes we can leave it out
<plovs_work> hornbeck, there is a pretty good synaptic howto in yelp
<hornbeck> but if it remains in the system configuration menu than we have to add something on it
<rcaskey_> We will have to ask. That's why I left out the keeping up to date section as well, there is supposed to be a software update utility
<George^Deka> plovs_work: i know, everything else pretty much in gnome is better
<rcaskey_> yeah, we can still have it
<rcaskey_> it just can be targeted towards a little more advanced user
<hornbeck> how about we leave it only in the system configuration section
<plovs_work> George^Deka, well, scripting on kde is way better (or better you can script kde, you cannot script gnome)
<hornbeck> the adding removing software will focus on Gnome-App-Install
<rcaskey_> yyeah
<hornbeck> ok
<hornbeck> rcaskey: think about peripherals, and I have to run to a job real quick
* George^Deka is dying for screenies of gnome-app-install i hate synaptic command line all the way
<hornbeck> I will be back in about a hour
<rcaskey_> oky, see you when I get back
<rcaskey_> George: it's in hoary
<rcaskey_> and it's very unfinished
<rcaskey_> so nothing great to look at
* rcaskey_ runs afk for a few minutes
<George^Deka> plovs_work: true, and adding extra componets etc to kde is much more of a breeze. eg kparts, add to properties panel etc
<George^Deka> can anyone tell me what does ubuntu use by default oss or alsa ?? cause i just noticed im using oss
<plovs> George^Deka, interesting that the kde framework is so much better but i find the desktop in all worse
<plovs> George^Deka, why don't you use apt-get?
<George^Deka> plovs: i feel the same about kde, i do use apt-get why would u think i dont -- i will never use a non apt-get distro
<plovs> George^Deka, too bad about scripting though, apple-script would be nice to have on gnome
<plovs> lulu, are people working  on getting faster servers?
<lulu> plovs: I am working on optimising plone and getting a ZEO cluster going.
<George^Deka> plovs: i don't know apple-script would assume it is easy it would be great if we had a macro recorder like apple does. Now that makes writing scripts so dead simple. personally i would like to see python or vbscript in gnome (only vb script cause i know it)
<plovs> lulu, nice and thanks, things are really slooow atm, can we somehow see how many hits the server gets? and can we see how many hits a certain page gets?
<George^Deka> plovs: what made you think i dont use apt-get ?
<plovs> George^Deka,  is dying for screenies of gnome-app-install i hate synaptic command line all the way 
<plovs> George^Deka, synaptic command line, and i thought, eeeew
<George^Deka> plovs: i get you now, well i use apt-get from command line, and im on dial-up so no hoary for me
<George^Deka> lulu: i know i have seen it somewhere before but what do you actually do at canonical
<cenerentola> ciao
<cenerentola> lulu: u know i love you?
<lulu> George^Deka: who wants to know! :o)
<lulu> George^Deka: lots of things! Primarily in charge of the websites...
<cenerentola> and hows the linguaplone thing?
<George^Deka> lulu: i want to know! hehehe, was thinking of a question to see if you might be one to pose it to.
<lulu> George^Deka: pose it and if I can't answer it, I'll find someone who can :o)
<George^Deka> lulu: then i forgot now i rememebered, re my email re doc acceptance process - what would the feasability be like in getting it done (the bugzilla part)
<lulu> cenerentola: working on it
<lulu> George^Deka: been away...let me check the email and get back to you....
<George^Deka> lulu: understable your a busy girl/woman/lady (which one fits you best ? :) )
<lulu> George^Deka: all 3 is fine :o)....
<cenerentola> rotfl sex-bomb
<George^Deka> cenerentola: lol, but we need confermation of that
<hornbeck> I'm back
<cenerentola> you who?
<hornbeck> rcaskey: you still here?
<George^Deka> cenerentola: of lulu=sex-bomb
<cenerentola> u...
<sivang> George^Deka : already available, under "Dcoumentation" tag in bugzilla
<George^Deka> sivang: really, ummm
<sivang> George^Deka : you can already enter documentation bugs in bugzilla, see https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=3353
<hornbeck> tech meeting is starting
<ChrisH> hornbeck: Hi... aren't you involved in the "nutshell" project?
<hornbeck> I think :-)
<hornbeck> we are thinking of making the Ubuntu book the Nutshell project
<hornbeck> have you seen the new outline?
<ChrisH> hornbeck: I just found a new posting on -doc@ and wondered about what goes into the Wiki, the FAQ or "the book".
<ChrisH> hornbeck: No, I haven't. I just heard from sivang that there is such a project going on.
<ChrisH> hornbeck: I wildly imagined an "Ubuntu Reference" for newbies and administrators that would contain more cleanly written sections that fit into each other than the current FAQ does.
<hornbeck> ubuntulinux.org/wiki/LearningUbuntuOutline
<hornbeck> check that out, it is not done by far
<hornbeck> rcaskey_ and I are working on it
<ChrisH> hornbeck: Very good. The TOC looks great already.
<hornbeck> it will get better
<ChrisH> Just wondered who is working on it. Didn't mean to "interfere" with it though. :)
<lulu> George^Deka: Bugzilla - adding Documentation bugs, as Sivan said, is already up there. There is a workflow in plone for approvals, but it does get complicated, so we've stuck to the simple one....
<lulu> George^Deka: perhaps when a doc is ready for review, it goes into Bugzilla and when considered ready for upload onto the site, it gets moved and bug is closed....
<hornbeck> ChrisH: you are not interfering at all
<George^Deka> lulu: yes that sounds good, maybe this of cource will have to get discussed more and prob voted on, we use bugzilla as a workflow thingy. Cause i think thier is huge advantages for bugzilal with +r and +sr then pendingupload
<George^Deka> hornbeck: you wanna reply to the new mail on the ML - another book proposal
<hornbeck> I will take a look
<hornbeck> I am not seeing it yet? did you send to -doc?
<George^Deka> not by me, someone else
<George^Deka> yeah its on -doc
<hornbeck> ohh I see it than
<George^Deka> sweet as
<lulu> George^Deka:sounds good!
<George^Smoko> sivang: tommorow if its okay with you i will make a revised proposal, for voting on. when it comes to voting is it everone in doc team or only core ? 
<hornbeck> George: I replyed
<George^Smoko> hornbeck: cool
<hornbeck> are you one of the people involved?
<George^Smoko> hornbeck: with new book ? if so no
<hornbeck> ok
<sid77> Italian howto are up! (all of them 8)
<lulu> sid77:wow! well done!
<sid77> they stiil need some work, but are up and ready
<hornbeck> rcaskey_ , robertj: you around anywhere?
<sid77> may I group all the translated faq into one page or I've to keep the same orignal structure?
<hornbeck> please keep the same structure
<sid77> uh
<sid77> ok
<hornbeck> it makes it easier for people to follow if everything in every language is the same format/structure
<hornbeck> at least I think so
<hornbeck> you may post to the list
<sid77> ok
<sid77> there is absolutely no problem, I just don't like it (only personal taste 8)
<sivang> George^Smoko : core team, because we are the ones who are gonna do it eventually.
<George^Smoko> sivang: cool, whats it take to get onto core team, more documentation ?
<sivang> George^Smoko : ah :) hmm well, this is also a document I am working on currently , at the time being - participation and writing, yes.
<George^Smoko> sivang: cool
<George^Smoko> cya all
<George^Smoko> nite
<sid77> 'night
<sivang> night!
<hornbeck> can there be <sect3> tags in doc book for a third nest
<rcaskey_> hornbeck: i'm back now
<hornbeck> good
<hornbeck> I am working on the docbook stuff now
<hornbeck> Peripherals
<hornbeck> what should be included
<rcaskey_> Digital Camera, Scanner, External Drives
<hornbeck> good
<hornbeck> printers?
<rcaskey_> Yu
<rcaskey_> err Yup
* rcaskey_ thinks..
<rcaskey_> Palms
<hornbeck> wacom tablets>
<hornbeck> I live with and am friends with alot of artist
<hornbeck> they all use them
<hornbeck> or is that to advanced
<rcaskey_> Anything that can be configured and used entirely throough the gui in hoary
<hornbeck> that is a big want :-)
<hornbeck> for now, Digital cameras, scanner, external drives, printers, and palm pilots
<hornbeck> and the software to use them
<hornbeck> I think that is a good start
<rcaskey_> I think each of those should be three parts
<hornbeck> such as?
<rcaskey_> Configure the Device, Confirm it's showing up, and then use it in a common use scenario
<rcaskey_> like Plug in thumb drive, check that it show's up in Gnome, open up the device in Gnome.
<rcaskey_> As the most basic example
<hornbeck> ok
<hornbeck> that sounds good
<rcaskey_> for a digital camera it might be "Plug in the camera" "check to see it shows up in hal browser" "install fspot"
<hornbeck> where is hal browser?
<rcaskey_> under the system config menu
<rcaskey_> I can't remember what the gui name is for it right now
<hornbeck> ahh device manager
<hornbeck> so a write up would be
<hornbeck> Peripherals: Digital Camera * Installing Camera * Insuring Device is Configured * Using Device
<rcaskey_> yeah, using device would be really light
<rcaskey_> just a very first steps
<hornbeck> yeah
<rcaskey_> or "Plug in gamepad" "Calibrate Joypad" "Use Joypad in Tuxracer"
<hornbeck> I was just thinking that
<hornbeck> Install camera * insure camera is setup * using camera with gphoto
<hornbeck> what is a scanner application?
<hornbeck> check the wiki and see what you think?
<hornbeck> rcaskey_: you still around or did you run away?
<rcaskey_> I ran away but now I'm back
<rcaskey_> I don't have a scanner so I can't really check
<hornbeck> good, did you look at the wiki?
<hornbeck> if so what do you think
<rcaskey_> just now looking
<rcaskey_> I _think_ there will be a nautilus plugin for Gphoto2 in hoary
<hornbeck> nice
<hornbeck> it will still be the default picture program though
<rcaskey_> Yeah, unless mono + fspot come out of nowhere
<hornbeck> fspot is still pretty young, but it is nice
<hornbeck> I think we should keep gphoto as the program
<rcaskey_> I'm just not sure, I coulnd't care less
<hornbeck> well, lets leave it for now
<rcaskey_> my camera shows up as an external hard drive
<rcaskey_> and I just drag my pictures
<hornbeck> hmmm
<hornbeck> my stand is leave it till we can prove something better for right now
<hornbeck> as we stand, we have about three months to try and get this mostly done
<hornbeck> there is about three times as much stuff now than a week ago
<hornbeck> so we have alot of writing to do
<rcaskey_> yeah
<hornbeck> we have one last section to discuss
<hornbeck> installing hardware
<rcaskey_> (and the first section)
<hornbeck> I am for dropping this section as I don't see how it really ties to much into Ubuntu specific
<rcaskey_> Maybe just call it "Hardware"
<rcaskey_> the big points are: check the Hardware list to make sure it works
<hornbeck> we are covering just about all hardware in other sections in the book
<hornbeck> we will go over that in system configuration
<hornbeck> with device manager
<hornbeck> no reason for a whole chapter
<rcaskey_> maybe we need Hardware Compatability List in #8
<hornbeck> hardware compatability changes to much
<rcaskey_> it should stay stable for hoary though
<hornbeck> maybe a web address in the more information section
<hornbeck> we will never know all of the hardware supported though
<rcaskey_> at least a subsection telling people to read before they buy and to check the list
<hornbeck> all we have is whats on the wiki and that changes alot
<hornbeck> lets add that to chapter 8 than
<hornbeck> i will agree to that
<rcaskey_> and let's add Viewing Installed hardware to Common Tasks
<hornbeck> a "Hardware Compatability" section
<hornbeck> you will view installed hardware with device manager
<hornbeck> chapter 7
<hornbeck> what you think?
<rcaskey_> well I was thinking more of a "View Information about Your System"
<lulu> night all :o)
<hornbeck> night
<rcaskey_> Does hal device manager show processor speed and ram?
<hornbeck> I could see a "view information about your system"
<hornbeck> I don't see anything like that no
* rcaskey_ arghs
<rcaskey_> OSXvncviewer hangs with vino-server :(
<hornbeck> hoary's system configuration is different than warty's I will have to change that on the wiki
<hornbeck> that sucks
<hornbeck> I updated the wiki to match Hoary items
* rcaskey_ runs afk again for a bit, lousy work
* rcaskey_ returns
<hornbeck> ok
<hornbeck> check the wiki
<rcaskey_> Let's just rename 4 to Software and have "Software Installation/Removal" and "Keeping up to Date"
<hornbeck> have those as sub catagories?
<rcaskey_> yeah
<hornbeck> that sounds good
<cenerentola> hornbeck: have you got time?
<hornbeck> a few minutes yeah
<cenerentola> do you think im that rude, having used the word "hominid"?
<hornbeck> what?
<plovs> hi guys
<hornbeck> hey plovs
<plovs> cenerentola, that was enrico, who wrote the mail
<cenerentola> im talking about the ubuntu-doc ml 
<cenerentola> ciao plovs...
<hornbeck> cenerentola: I honestly have no clue what you are talking about
<cenerentola> i was asking your opinion
<cenerentola> so plovs: any hint?
<hornbeck> hominid: means homosapion
<cenerentola> what i mean is that when i talk to, and maybe i shouldnt, even if i dont know you personally, i feel you
<cenerentola> like friends...
<hornbeck> I don't see a problem with that
<cenerentola> because we're working, someone with more effort, someone with less, for the same thing...
<hornbeck> yeah
<cenerentola> and so it happens that i may use friendly language...
<cenerentola> and i see enrico's a complete waste of time, and bits
<hornbeck> enrico is a good guy
<cenerentola> i think so
<cenerentola> i really think so...
<hornbeck> so I don't know where you might get that
<plovs> cenerentola, it's always better to be nice, ans with jokes, you should be carefull until you know who you joke to, somebody might misunderstand
<cenerentola> he said i should not use the word hominid in respect of ubuntu users... well i was chatting to a friend not talking with her majesty the queen
<hornbeck> we are all hominid's
<cenerentola> in a certain way...
<cenerentola> yes..
<cenerentola> that's for relativity... we're all hominid about sth...
<rcaskey_> we are also congnitive entities
<rcaskey_> but sometimes we get more specific and say "people"
<cenerentola> so i dont really get enrico's reaction...
<hornbeck> rcaskey_: I updated the software spot
<hornbeck> what email are we talking about?
<hornbeck> I have to read this
<cenerentola> kant wouldnt be with you
<cenerentola> <20041116152909.GA5315@marvin.casa>
<hornbeck> rcaskey_: have you read the svn version of the book?
<hornbeck> I used the install section from the site
<hornbeck> which covers alot except lacking pictures
<rcaskey_> nope, put the svn repository up on the web page and Ill grabt it at home tonight
<hornbeck> ok
<cenerentola> plovs: do you think its necessary to be specific for the novices or not?
<hornbeck> rcaskey: I added it to the top of the outline page
<plovs> cenerentola, enrico send a good link about target audience, most docs on the wiki are for Advanced beginner or Competent performer, if you write for Novice then you shouls explain more
<cenerentola> may i have url?
<cenerentola> yep moreover i clearly explained it was an italian project...
<hornbeck> brb, I have to do the dishes real quick
<cenerentola> ahh... the comforts of living with mummy...
<cenerentola> plovs: most docs are for advanced...
<cenerentola> plovs: well i think there should be a little more interest for iper-novice than for advanced or not?
* cenerentola is away: I'm busy
<plovs> hornbeck, will the book be done in docbook?
<hornbeck> plovs: it is already being done in docbook
<hornbeck> 69.155.172.150/book
<hornbeck> does anyone read my email?
<hornbeck> :-)
<plovs> hornbeck, i didn't check it out yet
<hornbeck> thats fine
<hornbeck> I was just joking
<hornbeck> joking about everyone not reading my mail
<hornbeck> everything else stands
<cenerentola> ...
<plovs> hornbeck, will you keep it all in one file?
<plovs> hornbeck, it being your book
<hornbeck> I am thinking about breaking it up like the faq into separate chapters
<hornbeck> I just have not really looked into it that much
<plovs> hornbeck, i found it easier to work
<hornbeck> right
<hornbeck> I just need to figure it out
<hornbeck> I will read through you faq code and work on it today
<hornbeck> the book seems to be growing as in what will be included
<hornbeck> so I would like to be able to work on one chapter at a time
<hornbeck> I also have to figure out the make files and stuff
<plovs> hornbeck, i will be around for around an hour so if you need a hand with st let me know
<hornbeck> plovs: have you done any work to the faq since it has went to my server?
<hornbeck> your glue file is faq-guide right?
<plovs> hornbeck, yes
<plovs> hornbeck, and then part{1,2,3}
<hornbeck> part1,2,3 link to other files right
<plovs> hornbeck, yes
<hornbeck> hmm
<hornbeck> &ubuntufaq;
<hornbeck> that is a link currect?
<hornbeck> correct
<plovs> hornbeck, defined in faq-guide
<hornbeck> ahh
<hornbeck> what does the SYSTEM do?
<plovs> hornbeck, no idea, but it does not work without it
<hornbeck> ok
<hornbeck> brb, work finally calls
<hornbeck> I am back
<ChrisH> hornbeck: Just had a VoIP talk with sivan. Worked nicely. :)
<hornbeck> through skype?
<ChrisH> hornbeck: sipgate.de
<ChrisH> Skype was a PITA.
<hornbeck> cool
<ChrisH> I think we can cancel the conference. It's all said. :)
<hornbeck> ChrisH, plovs: did you guys relize the faq still says gnome 2.8 user guide
<ChrisH> Oops?
<hornbeck> the contents page
<ChrisH> Argh... yelp still crashes on the document. :(
<hornbeck> You are not running sivan's patched version?
<hornbeck> or are you running warty
<hornbeck> I fixed it
<ChrisH> Just warty...
<hornbeck> ahh, I don't have problems with the faq on warty
<ChrisH> With yelp? Really? My CPU goes up to 100% and nothing happens.
<ChrisH> Does anyone have an idea how I can add "context actions"? I want to have a shell script shrink pictures for email attachments. I'd like to select them, right click on them and select an action I'd introduce.
<hornbeck> I have no idea
<hornbeck> ls
<hornbeck> sorry wrong window
<plovs> ChrisH, copy a  script to your nautilus-scripts folder
<ChrisH> plovs: let me check
<plovs> ChrisH, there is page in the wiki nautilusscripts or something
<ChrisH> plovs: Is there a single page that you didn't write? ;)
<plovs> ChrisH, docbookintro?
<plovs> ChrisH, in vim how do i enter 14x the same character?
<ChrisH> plovs: 14i-   => --------------
<sivang> plovs : what's that script about?
<plovs> sivang, i'm updating my vimrc
<ChrisH> plovs: Hmmm. If I put a script into ~/.gnome2/nautilus-scripts it's still not available in the context menu. Is some gconf entry missing?
<ChrisH> Ah... now I see. X-flag was missing.
<plovs> ChrisH, quite usefull, i use it all the time
<ChrisH> I still wonder where the actions per mime-type are stored.
<ChrisH> My script just makes sense on image objects, that's why.
<sivang> what's that X flag?
<ChrisH> execute
<sivang> ah
<ChrisH> chmod u+x ...
<sivang> ah that I understand
<hornbeck> how do you create a link in docbook?
<sivang> I thought that was something to do with hacking X
<sivang> :)
<ChrisH> <ulink url="http:/...">...</ulink>
<ChrisH> sivang: You will *never* see *me* hacking *X*
<hornbeck> I want it to link to another docbook page
<hornbeck> not include it on the same page
<ChrisH> okay... let's see
<plovs> ChrisH, http://cvs.gnome.org/viewcvs/nautilus-python/
<ChrisH> sivang: http://www.docbook.org/tdg/en/html/link.html
<plovs> ChrisH, the source might help you if i remember right you could use mime-types with it
<ChrisH> tnx
<ChrisH> I really need to polish my python skills. But I'm nearly done. "hello world" already worked. :)
<sivang> ChrisH : I'm in the same stage :)
<hornbeck> I might be able to help with python if you have questions
<ChrisH> plovs: that does not really say what to do...
<ChrisH> hornbeck: Teach me Python in 10 minutes, please. :)
<plovs> ChrisH, http://cvs.gnome.org/viewcvs/*checkout*/nautilus-python/examples/background-image.py?content-type=text%2Fplain&rev=1.1.1.1
<plovs> ChrisH, it shows how you can specify wanted mime-types
<ChrisH> plovs: is it an example for nautilus-scripts? Or an example for mime-type dependant actions?
<plovs> ChrisH, it will put an item in the right-click menu if the mime-type is correct
<plovs> ChrisH, when i tried it it just build
<ChrisH> plovs: where do you put it?
<plovs> ChrisH, ./configure make install
<ChrisH> plovs: I mean... do you install the "nautilus-python" package and copy that script somewhere?
* ChrisH is dumb
<plovs> ChrisH, i build it three months ago, if i remember right it puts some stiff in site-packages and something in /usr/nautils/scripts or something, you have to get it from cvs btw
<ChrisH> Bummer. I hoped there was some clear documentation on it. Have looked around gnome.org already, too.
<sivang> plovs : what does this script allow you to do?
<plovs> sivang, they're just example scripts that show the python-nautilus bindings (which are quite need as far as i understand it)
<plovs> ChrisH, johan@gnome.org is the guy who wrote it he is usually on #pygtk and is a very friendly guy, i asked all kinds of dum questions and he didn't flame me once
<plovs> ChrisH, but i would just get it from gnome cvs and try it, it's quite nice
* ChrisH changes his nick to plovs_ and joins #pygtk :)
<plovs> ChrisH, http://yergler.net/blog/ has packages, halfway down at: Creative Commons support in Gnome
<hornbeck> well gentlemen, I am off for the night, I am taking the evening off
<hornbeck> see you tomorrow
<ChrisH> hornbeck: me, too... isn't it terribly late at au? :)
<plovs> night
#ubuntu-doc 2004-11-28
<George^Deka> hi all
<hornbeck> hello
<George^Deka> hi hornbeck
<hornbeck> do you know anything about apache?
<robertj> yeah
<robertj> whats the rub?
<hornbeck> ok
<hornbeck> I have opensoftdesign.org
<hornbeck> it is pointed to my server, the same server as the svn server
<hornbeck> I can 69.155.172.150/book
<hornbeck> but I cannot opensoftdesign.org/book
<hornbeck> I know it is something I am doing wrong
<robertj> does pinging opensoftdesign.org work
<hornbeck> I don't know, you can try
<hornbeck> you can go to it through a webbrowser and it is my blog
<robertj> (64.202.167.129)
<hornbeck> hmm
<hornbeck> whys that
<hornbeck> try it in a web browser
<hornbeck> do I need to be running dns here at the server?
<hornbeck> I will be back, I am going to go eat real quick
<robertj> no
<robertj> you have to register your ip address with go-daddy's nameservers
<hornbeck> who's go-daddy
<robertj> the address parking that domain
<robertj> I thought you registered your domain through them
<hornbeck> nope
<hornbeck> I used freebsdportal.com but they look like the same place I think
<hornbeck> I have to run though, I will check it out more.
<hornbeck> Thanks though, and grab the svn version of the Book, the work directory has the newest version I was working on.  Book-main.xml will launch it.
<hornbeck> Thanks Robert
<Hoodster> Hi All
<ChrisH> Morning friends and italians... ;)
<lulu> morning all :o)
<ChrisH> lulu: moin :)
<lulu> Hiya!
<lulu> Gorgeous day this side of the world :o)
<ChrisH> lulu: Just send some weather. It's cold and raining here. :(
<plovs_work> morning!
<lulu> ChrisH: light a fire and grab a cup of good coffee :o)
<ChrisH> bbl... fire alert... ;)
<lulu> plovs_work: morning!
<plovs_work> lulu, how are the plans for WikiWishes, will those things be implemented?
<lulu> plovs_work: can you be more specific? You mean the whole wiki wish list to be done?
<plovs_work> lulu, that would be nice, off course, but especially moving the oldwiki and dtml scripting
<lulu> plovs_work: I don't know if you saw James Troups' response - he should eb getting to the wiki move this week. He's just gone to the datacentre and I will see him later today and remind him :o)
<plovs_work> lulu, and dtml scripting, that would be cream on the pudding
<plovs_work> ok, off to lunch
<lulu> plovs_work: I'll certainly ask for the cream/cherry!
<plovs> lulu, marvellous!
* sid77 ciao
<lulu> hi sid77!
<sid77> ciao
<hornbeck> I'm back
<lulu> plovs_work:ping
<plovs_work> ChrisH, awake? we need help with webdav
<ChrisH> plovs_work: sure
<hornbeck> nice, webdav here we come
<ChrisH> plovs_work: for your funky idea about a to do list through evo? :)
<plovs_work> ChrisH, yeah, and well, eeuh to play around with evolution as well
<ChrisH> plovs_work: I like the idea. :)
<sivang> Hey all
<hornbeck> hey
<ChrisH> sivang: Hey, Obi Wan. :)
<sivang> ChrisH : Hey Luke :)
<plovs_work> ChrisH, could you make s write-up of webdav? i want to do it at home as well
<ChrisH> plovs_work: Uuuh. Tricky. I haven't done that much with webdav besides svn.
<plovs_work> sivang, did you ask me about sip-phones?
<plovs_work> ChrisH, ok, then we'll have to figure it out first
<ChrisH> sivang is now the master of sip phones :)
<plovs_work> hornbeck, http://www.serverwatch.com/tutorials/article.php/10825_2176771_2
<hornbeck> I will look at it
<sivang> yes, plovs_work I am thinking of an experimental way to do collaborative working in DocTeam - enter SIP Phones!
<ChrisH> You'll probably not need the "loadmodule" stuff. Apache2 has DAV built-in.
<sivang> we could extend this to whole canonical/ubuntu work scheme :))
<plovs_work> sivang, i use skype sometimes, you're supposed to be able to conference as well
<plovs_work> sivang, but i prefer chat and im and mail
<plovs_work> sivang, less intrusive afaik
<sivang> plovs_work : ok 
<hornbeck> plovs_work: I will set this up in alittle wihle
<hornbeck> while
<ChrisH> Voice-ICQ would be nice. :)
<hornbeck> why not use yahoo?
<hornbeck> it has voice ability
<hornbeck> can conferance
<hornbeck> I used to use it all the time with groups
<ChrisH> linux? firewall?
<plovs_work> hornbeck, i've got webdav running, easy as pie (which is not that easy i'm told)
<plovs_work> ChrisH, skype conquers it all, and has messaging as well, and is NON-FREE
<hornbeck> can webdav run on apache2?
<hornbeck> I am finding stuff for apache 1.3
<plovs_work> hornbeck, yes just dumb the following in httpd.conf:
<plovs_work> DAVLockDB /var/www/lockfile/DAVLock
<plovs_work> DAVMinTimeout 600
<plovs_work> <Directory "/var/www/dav/">
<plovs_work>     DAV On
<plovs_work>     AuthType Basic
<plovs_work>     AuthName test
<plovs_work>     AuthUserFile  /var/www/passwd/webdav
<plovs_work>     AuthGroupFile /dev/null
<plovs_work>     Require user test
<plovs_work> </Directory>
<plovs_work> hornbeck, and make u user test with password (you need apache-tools, with htpasswd)
<hornbeck> you need that for svn also
<plovs_work> sivang, if you want you can try skype, i am alexander.poslavsky at skype
<plovs_work> hornbeck, just the folder then DAV on is important
<hornbeck> ok I will try it
<sivang> plovs_work : ok, I will let you know when :)
<hornbeck> plovs_work: Ok it is there, now what?
<hornbeck> hey robert
<plovs_work> hornbeck, looking here as well, i am trying to put a task-list on the web, locally, not so simple
<hornbeck> how do I add the webcal:// to the server
<hornbeck> it is asking for it
<plovs_work> hornbeck, can't get it to work here as well
<hornbeck> I am not getting it
<plovs_work> hornbeck, that makes two
<plovs_work> hornbeck, we need a howto
<plovs_work> for dummies
<hornbeck> I am searching right now
<plovs_work> i'm gonna get st to eat
<lulu> hornbeck and all: as per our discussion, thanks John :o) Mark has agreed that we can have an svn server to be set up in the Canonical datacentre for the doc team to use. ETA end of next week. James will be in touch with you, John on this. Thanks for all your help. It's likely that it will be under docteam.ubuntulinux.org..... :o)
<sivang> yes!
<plovs> lulu, thanks
<plovs> hornbeck, i've got a read only tasklist now
<hornbeck> nice
<hornbeck> I cannot get anything :-)
<hornbeck> I am heading out for a second though
<hornbeck> brb
<plovs> hornbeck, webcal://test:12@192.168.0.31/dav/tasks.ics
<plovs> and you should have tasks.ics in your /var/www/dav/ or whatever
<plovs> hornbeck, still, this is rather useless
<hornbeck> can I just "touch tastks.ics
<plovs> hornbeck, sure go ahead
<plovs> hornbeck, but carefully
<lulu> plovs: dtml...
<plovs> hornbeck, i actually don't know
<plovs> lulu, yes???
<lulu> plovs: I've had a chat to a guru or 2 :o)
* plovs ........
<plovs> lulu, who said ....
* plovs is feeling the tension rise
<lulu> what exactly do we need dtml for, so we can find a way to achieve the goals with scripts that people can use, but not compromise the security of the site/wiki?
<sm> I can answer that
<lulu> by being able to create and edit them?
<sm> hello lulu, plovs
<lulu> sm: go ahead!
<plovs> sm, the man of the hour
<lulu> hiya! :o) 
* sm bows
<sm> well, you need it for dynamic lists etc, which everyone is so keen on
<lulu> yes...
<plovs> and a database frontend for the hardware database which should just be in a database
* plovs has to run away, will read the log, see you guys
<sm> it weakens security more than moin macros, because it's an open ended scripting language - someone could write dtml to erase all zope objects (worst case)
<lulu> that's what I heard...
<sm> you can prevent that by restricting permissions of the wiki folder's owner
<lulu> sm: could we not have prewritten scripts that we can call...
* sid77 bye!
<lulu> sm: but not editable...
<lulu> and anyone can "link" them in a page...
<sm> yes we could.. moin-a-likes.. but that would take a bit of time
<sm> which I seem to be terribly short of :)
<sm> it's probably a good idea; I personally find dtml worth the bother and use it everywhere
<lulu> sm: what skills would people need to write these scripts?
<lulu> and does anyone else in the team have them?
<sm> some python programming ability, willingness to dive into the zwiki codebase, with pointers from me
<lulu> sm: what if we drew up a list of specific scripts that we need....and put a bounty and a deadline on it?
<lulu> and is this a priority over and above the other things on the wish list?
<lulu> perhaps we should prioritise things on the wiki wish list?
<sm> that's a great idea
<sm> bounties make it easier for me (or anyone) to justify it
<sm> I am due to review WikiTodo & WikiDiscussion
* plovs_work peeks in
<lulu> Ok - so who can prioritise the wiki wish list to represent what most people would want to see handled in order...? could you do this?
<sm> my priorities right now are your two bugzilla issues
<lulu> sm: yes...
<sm> yes I'll make a pass at it today.. maybe plovs can advise me
<plovs_work> lulu, i'll be able to help, but only in three for hours from now
<plovs_work> sm, i  meant
<sm> plovs if you like, pick a time to check in ?
<plovs_work> sm, 19:15utc ?
<plovs_work> lulu, what about the other points on the wish-list?
<sm> er utc is.. remind me ?
<lulu> plovs, sm - that's great.....
<lulu> plovs: I think you guys need to prioritise the wiki wish list and let's go from there ok?
<plovs_work> lulu, np
<plovs_work> sm, it is now 15:42utc
<plovs_work> so 19:15 is 3,5 hours from now
<sm> ok, 3.5 hours from now then
<sm> is utc = gmt ?
<lulu> thanks guys :o)
<sm> thx lulu
<plovs_work> lulu, see ya
* sm upgraded to ubuntu yesterday :)
* plovs_work welcomes sm to the club
<plovs_work> ok, now i really have to go, see you in 3,5 hours, bye all
<sm> see you
<lulu> thanks :o)
<sm> lulu, plovs: but this issue of custom tags vs dtml can use some more discussion/exploration imho
<sm> we can see how it works out
<lulu> ok - perhaps you could do that on email to the list?
<lulu> sm: sound sane?
<sm> I find email difficult sometimes.. but yes perfectly sane
<sm> I'll send something short right now
<lulu> sm: cool - then everyone can give their opinion. could u cc steve@canonical.com too please. thanks :o)
<sm> ok
<lulu> sm: thanks!
<sm> quoting from the above log, hope that's ok
<lulu> np
<sivang> sm : SImon?
<sm> hello sivang
<sivang> hi sm
<sm> what are you working on ?
<hornbeck> man this calendar is pissing me off
<hornbeck> plovs: good to see you on the tomboy list :-)
* rcaskey returns
<sivang> hi again sm, wasn't here sorry
<sivang> sm : Working on bunch of stuff, docs, new comers help, gst,yelp fixes ..:)
<sivang> sm : btw what is the dtml script things? I find those posts to the list cryptic somehow..
<sm> it's about putting scripts/macros in wiki pages
<sm> to generate listings automatically, etc
<sivang> any bounties invloved? (my unemloyed self is talking :))
<sm> not yet
<sivang> k
<sm> see the list, perhaps there will be
<sm> are you a python coder ?
<sivang> just started with that, so guess it would not apply for me anyhow :)
<sivang> I've been a C,C++,Java,bits perl hacker..
<sivang> :)
<sm> as we organize the WikiTodo list, I would think there'll be some good bounty candidates
<sm> ah
<sm> well if you want some pointers, ask me
<sm> help is always welcome
<sm> see you
<sivang> ok, bye
<sivang> sm : I am also working on a top level, not wiki specific todo list
<sm> great
<sivang> sm : you on your way out?
<sm> I was.. yes, must work
<sm> I'll be back in an hour to talk todos with plovs
* sm waves
<lulu> night all :o)
<plovs> hi guys
<plovs> hornbeck, any news about evolution?
<hornbeck> I just got back
<hornbeck> we will have to make a calendar first
<hornbeck> than we can link to it
<hornbeck> we have to figure out how to make the .ics file first
<plovs> hornbeck, make one and copy it from .evolution/ folder
<hornbeck> ahhh good idea
<hornbeck> you are so smart :-)
<hornbeck> I can not open it
<hornbeck> what was that page again?
<plovs> that page ?
<hornbeck> the one about setting up the webcal
<hornbeck> you posted it in here
<hornbeck> sorry
<plovs> ah, brb
<plovs> http://www.serverwatch.com/tutorials/article.php/10825_2176771_2
<sm> hello
<plovs> hi
<plovs> sm, shall we work from top to bottom? i'll make a new write-up on a seperate page, ok?
<sm> alright then
* sm logs in, as usual
<sm> are we including plone todos ?
<plovs> maybe all
<sm> * make login cookies persist
<sm> why should we log in every day
<plovs> sm, maybe for a week or so
<sm> I was thinking about three ways to track these going forward - bullet list, zwiki issue pages, bugzilla
<sm> bullet list is right for now eh
<plovs> sm, yes, a list, we send it to the ml for review and then but it in bugzilla, ok?
<plovs> s/but/put
<plovs> sm i'll keep a list
<sm> alright
<plovs> 1. persistent login
<plovs> (we can renumber later ok?)
<sm> bien sur
<plovs> When editing, a link to a summary of available markup , is this possible?
<sm> my mind is a bit foggy.. go ahead
* sm r e a d s
<sm> for sure
<sm> what exactly is needed do you think
<sm> well we can go into it later
<plovs> in moin, there was a short explanation of the markup-language
<plovs> when you press edit
<plovs> at the bottom of the page, under the edit box
<sm> moin-like markup explanation (for each page type)
<sm> ok
<sm> what else do we have here..
<plovs> an RSS feed of changes would be extremely useful -- MarkShuttleworth
<sm> check.. that's not hard
<plovs> moin has this (you'll hear this a lot)
<sm> does he know about mail subscription I wonder
<sm> zopewiki has it
<plovs> maybe we just need to advertise it and pretend we fixed it :-)
<sm> yah
<plovs> Table Of Contents
<sm> for moin page types ?
<sm> rst already does it, right
<plovs> i think we use ReST and moin only
<sm> and this should be optional right ? some moin pages won't want this ?
<sm> so: moin-like table of contents macro for moin pages
<plovs> choice is nice, but always is better then never
<plovs> and ReST?
<sm> it's in rest already
<plovs> how?
<sm> .. contents
<sm> something like that
<sm> it's in the rst docs
<plovs> really, duh
<sm> I believe
<plovs> rst or ReST? or both
<sm> rst = restructured text
<plovs> ok
<sm> I use it in preference to varied spelling/capitalization
<plovs> ok
<plovs> moin:  internal wiki links with labels - [wiki:ThisPage Description] 
<plovs> off course if hacking moin is a lot of work we can settle with rst
<plovs> but at least one markup language should be ok
<sm> put it as an issue, sure
<sm> IMHO it's a non-priority
<sm> but if someone wants to bounty it..
<plovs> i'll put it at the bottom
<sm> can you use html in moin btw ?
<plovs> if you turn it on, usually turned of and advised not to
<plovs> it just parses whatever you write
<plovs> moin: page list regular expresions - [[PageList(Howto$.*)] ]        (idem dito?)
<sm> is that a way to achieve labelled wiki links right now then ?
<sm> (html in moin)
<plovs> sorry i thought you meant in real moin, no in the wiki it doesn't work afaik, but i don't use moin often
<sm> ok
<sm> me neither
<sm> page list - that's the general need macros issue, right
<sm> I think we have a proposed solution there
<sm> to work on, I mean
<plovs> does dtml work in moin?
<sm> I think.. not
<sm> you saw the latest list discussion, right
<plovs> anti dtml: related: right now DTML doesn't work in RST either. It's only available in the structured text and HTML page types.
<plovs> we'll put the moin stuff in but lower in the list, i think, we should have a working solution first, ok?
<sm> we should probably just list the issues and prioritise them according to the community's need
<plovs> ok
<plovs> Allow pages that list the current page to be included - [[FullSearch()] ]  one more moin macro
<plovs> it's kindoff the same as PageList, i'll file it there
<plovs> consider installing PTS for skin i18n (http://zopewiki.org/PlacelessTranslationService)
<hornbeck> bbl
<sm> yes - that would translate the plone & zwiki skins somewhat
<plovs> this looks nice, but does it make the site even slower?
<sm> and comes basically for free, so seems like a good idea
<sm> no
<plovs> then we should put it high in the list
<sm> hmm it might interact with caching
<sm> I think we won't know without trying
<plovs> the admins can figure that out :-)
<sm> actually it needs some discussion on the list; the caching guru(s) may know
<sm> I don't know who that is
<plovs> we just make the list, they can sort it out
<sm> but ubuntu is international, so it should be looked into
<plovs> in moin we had icons, flags, road-signs etc, (this is my first one, we spoke about this already)
<plovs> http://moinmoin.wikiwikiweb.de/HelpOnSmileys
<sm> yes
<sm> these would work only in moin pages ?
<plovs> rst, more pages are being done in rst atm
<sm> I don't think you want to mess with standard rst though.. ?
<sm> or maybe you do; an issue to discuss
<sm> you're sure bugzilla is the place ? I agree it would be nice to have real issue pages
<sm> but I'm replying to one now and it sucks
<sm> hard
<sm> well partly because I can't remember my login
<plovs> ;-) that makes life hard
<plovs> Deleted Pages do not show up in changes
<sm> never mind.. let's get the list first
<plovs> this is a real problem afaik
<plovs> to keep track of the wiki, RecentChanges should work well
<plovs> is it possible to see  Deleted Pages, somewhere?
<sm> plovs: yes, by subscribing
<plovs> well, i do not want to subscribe to the whole wiki, so then what?
<sm> then it's an open issue
<sm> current recent changes can't show them easily
<plovs> ok, i added it
<sm> thx.. what else
<plovs> Add a spelling checker to the editor.
<sm> oh, there's also http://ubuntulinux.org/wiki/recycle_bin/folder_contents
<sm> or a view like http://zwiki.org/RecycleBin
<plovs> can i subscribe to that?
<sm> no
<plovs> i like http://zwiki.org/RecycleBin
<sm> we could pretty easily set this up (not as a wiki page) on ubuntu
<plovs> ok
<plovs> RecentChanges? in moin has a feature which allows the user to set a bookmark timestamp
<sm> right.. open issue
<plovs> The frontpage has a recent items, block (left-top) stuff from the wiki does not go there, or how can the doc-team add content there?
<sm> hmm
<sm> only published items appear there
<sm> something to look into
<sm> should not be a problem
<plovs> Add a spelling checker to the editor.
<sm> you mentioned that one
<sm> what else have we
<sm> surely that's everything :)
<plovs> plenty left
<sm> these are all site and wiki software todos, right
<sm> not wiki content
<plovs> RecentChanges? calls everything new, even if it is just an update, very confusing. New, updated and removed as indicator would be much more usefull
<sm> no.. only pages created in the last week
<sm> we can probably do better
<sm> hmm I have to go shortly
<plovs> yes, it's late
<sm> where are you ?
<plovs> latvia, it's 22:19 here
<sm> aha
<sm> los angeles
<plovs> ah, ok
<plovs> some more quickly
<sm> so how to move forward - 
<plovs> usernames in recentchanges are not clickable
<bsm117532> someone please go moderate my post to ubuntu-doc...
<sm> some of these need discussion, some don't ..
<bsm117532> didn't want to join the mailing list...
<sm> they all need prioritisation and the ability to be bounty-ised if they aren't happening quickly enough..
<plovs> make optional change note, not optional
<sm> aha, I dispute that
<sm> open issue
<sm> is opening a bunch of bugzilla issues the next step ?
<plovs> that's ok, i still think i'm right :)
<plovs> no i send it to the mailing-list for the other to say what they want done first
<plovs> could the favourites box be added as a useroption?
<sm> I don't know.. I need to talk about process for a sec
<plovs> that was the last one
<sm> great
<sm> so you'll keep the wiki list for a bit longer, and we can adjust the ordering there based on list discussion
<sm> maybe you can number them there, to facilitate that discussion ?
<plovs> ok, will do that, and clean m up a bit
<sm> cool
<sm> there are two in bugzilla already, which we should link
<sm> I have the urls somewhere
<sm> http://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=3613 
<sm> http://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=3629
<plovs> should i put all the items concerning RecentChanges together?
<sm> for now, yes please
<sm> something to think about - there is also the http://zwiki.org/IssueTracker 
<plovs> ok, i'll add those as well
<plovs> we don't have that? looks nice
<sm> so in some cases there'll be a page there for in-depth discussion
<sm> you have that 
<sm> it's bugzilla-lite
<sm> if you want to try, make a page named [#1 some issue] 
<plovs> nice, i'll try
<sm> but I'm just pointing out we'll need to keep the different trackers in mind and try to avoid duplication
<sm> plovs, thanks
<plovs> yes, thank you
<sm> is this a good hour for you ? I am often on earlier as well
<plovs> depends, sometimes i'm busy all day until 23:00 sometimes i have time of during the day... jus ttry
<sm> alright
<plovs> do you use icq/gaim?
<sm> gaim
<plovs> you mind if i would use it if i have a question, or mailing-list?
<plovs> or irc?
<sm> chat is good for me
<sm> often better than email
<plovs> ok
<sm> if I'm free, I'll chat
<sm> I hang in #zwiki and #zope
<sm> as you know, of course
<sm> thx.. see you later
<plovs> ok, thanks, yes, i know, see ya
<littlepaul> ChrisH, can i ask you something?
<sivang> hey littlepaul, ChrisH is currently away I think, what's up?
<littlepaul> wanted to ask something about the http://irclog.workaround.org/
<sivang> ah yes, I might help on that..what do you want to know?
<littlepaul> logging #ubuntu would be interesting for me and others - there are a lot of good discussions
<littlepaul> but #ubuntu has a few thousend lines per day but maby this is also the reason for living out this channel
<sivang> are you thiking of some kiand if exarction method for info?
<littlepaul> i thought about Security Announcements and Workarounds like the actual sed problem
<sivang> you mean a seperate channel?
<sivang> I can add news item to the main website
<sivang> if you're interested in it
<littlepaul> i am
<sivang> ok, then
<sivang> I was wondering what is the workaround for the sed problem..
<sivang> which holds my apt back
<littlepaul> smurfix posted this workaround  Quick workaround for the sed problem in hoary: edit /var/lib/dpkg/info/sed.postinst as root, add "exit 0" in the second line...
<littlepaul> sivang, it is late for me so i must go off now 
<littlepaul> cu and thx
<sivang> ok, no prob
<sivang> hey littlegreenman
<sivang> what's up?
<littlegreenman> hei sivang break from work :D
<littlegreenman> how u doing?
<sivang> fine, you? how's portugal in winter?
<sivang> :)
<littlegreenman> :)
<littlegreenman> coldish
<littlegreenman> been thinking about the open office manual thingy
<littlegreenman> and i was wondering what is it we want to achieve, one
<littlegreenman> and two, isn't there anything written already?
<littlegreenman> first, is it for
<littlegreenman> I am a newbie, never used a pc and/or word processor
<littlegreenman> or i come from microsoft word
<littlegreenman> or been there done that, want to know more
<littlegreenman> or all of the above....
<littlegreenman> :)
<sivang> hmm, have you mailed the list about it already?
<sivang> one things sounds really good to me, as you said you are a word processore specialist,
<sivang> a document like ms word --> OOo/AbiWord/KWord would be great,
<sivang> but do mail the list so we would have some more review to find you some already existing works you could use or derive on.
<sivang> if you are interested (and have the ability) to start something from you own especially for this subject - superb.
#ubuntu-doc 2005-11-28
<bhuvan> * bhuvan goes back to sleep
<mdke> night
<bhuvan> night
<mdke> Riddell, do we absolutely _have_ to use meinproc? it seems to drag in all sorts of kde specific dependencies. Weren't things ok with xslproc?
<Riddell> xsltproc doesn't make the index.cache.bz2 file
<mdke> Riddell, i see. But wasn't it done with xsltproc for breezy?
<Riddell> yes, and all the files had <FILENAME=FOO> at the top of them which meinproc gets rid of when it splits up the pages
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> you sure that is not just a setting that needs to be changed?
<Riddell> well it's in the stylesheets
<mdke> Riddell, and xsltproc doesn't read those stylesheets properly?
<Riddell> it reads the properly and puts the <FILENAME=FOO> stuff at the top and bottom of each page
<Riddell> then doesn't split the pages up
<mdke> Riddell, i would think that is due to it not having the correct xsl stylesheets, perhaps it needs the chunk rather than the single ones or something
<Riddell> that is the chunk one
<mdke> hmm
<Riddell> KDE wants to convert it to one big file with those <FILENAME=FOO> tags around each "page" and put it in an index.cache.bz2 file
<Riddell> then the next step, usually done at viewing time not build-time is to convert that to normal html pages
<Riddell> which is a lot faster than doing docbook->html at viewing time as gnome does
<Riddell> and takes up less space than html does
<mdke> Riddell, what is wrong with making the html at build time?
<mdke> ah
<Riddell> mdke: too much disk space
<mdke> Riddell, ok.
<mdke> Riddell, i am just fiddling with removing the preliminary k from documents
<Riddell> cool
<mdke> Riddell, i've build some things, and I notice that the releasenotes-web has this in the html:
<mdke> <link rel="stylesheet" href="/stable/common/kde-default.css" type="text/css">
<mdke> is that from the kde website or something?
<Riddell> should be /usr/share/doc/kde/HTML/en/common/
<mdke> in the web target?
<Riddell> well, copy that directory to /stable/common/
<Riddell> in the web target
<mdke> it should be ../../kde-default.css
<mdke> as I had it in kubuntu/libs/kde-ubuntu-web.xsl
<Riddell> I just stole the stylesheet from docs.kde.org, feel free to fix it.  XSL scares me
<mdke> i don't want to muck around with the directory structure on the webserver too much
<mdke> Riddell, ok, i might try and figure out how much it differs from the previous setup
<mdke> (default stylesheets + kde css)
<mdke> s/default/default xsl
<kevogod> http://help.ubuntu.com/starterguide/C/faqguide-all_files/note.png is a broken image
<jsgotangco> whats up?
<jsgotangco> xchat has this strange red line in dapper in the chat window
<Burgundavia> my dapper disk failed to install
<Burgundavia> burning another now
<jsgotangco> its pretty much the same
<jsgotangco> except system tools only has 2 entries at the moment
<Burgundavia> ah crap
<Burgundavia> that cd just crapped out on me
<Burgundavia> no dapper tonight it seems
<jjesse> my kubuntu dapper failed during installation and i haven't wasted the time ton install it
<jsgotangco> its pretty much the same except the borked debconf thing at the end of the installation which doesn't do anything really
<Burgundavia> hmm
<jsgotangco> see you guys later i need to get my visa to the embassy office
* Burgundavia decides to watch harry potter rather tahn fight with cds
<jjesse> Burgundavia which harry potter?
<jjesse> the new one goblet of fire is great
<kevogod> I am going to see it next week probably.
<kevogod> Is it the best out of the bunch?
<jjesse> kevogod: i think so, its the most violent
<jjesse> it's alos long 2hours 45 minutes or somethng like that
<jjesse> i won't spoiil anything :)
<Madpilot> Burgundavia: just pulled that drive from my box, all ready for reinstalling
<Burgundavia> sounds good
<rob1> Fetching external item into 'kubuntu/serverguide'
<rob1> Updated external to revision 2109.
<rob1> ?
<bhuvan> Riddell: ping
<Burgundavia> ah crap, there is another corey involved in Ubuntu now
<Madpilot> Burgundavia: you'll survive
<Madpilot> Burgundavia: did you do the Breezy kernel update today? it's eaten my fglrx drivers... again...
<Burgundavia> nope haven't done it yet
<Burgundavia> welcome to the fun of non-free crap
<Burgundavia> for dapper we can look forward to completely free 3d drivers
<Madpilot> heh
<Madpilot> I've already restarted this box more today that I have in the previous month...
<Burgundavia> <Babajobu> Imagine how poorly suited to modern life a person who found circuit boards to be irresistably delicious would be
<robitaille> cool, firefox 1.5 is getting into dapper tonight
<Burgundavia> another random link, possibly not work safe
<Burgundavia> http://www.livejournal.com/community/craftgrrl/7338468.html
<Burgundavia>     "A personal computer is called a personal computer because it's yours," said Andrew Moss, Microsoft's senior director of technical policy. "Anything that runs on that computer, you should have control over." 
<Madpilot> Burgundavia: thanks for that link... "His Noodly Appendage" has whole new realms of meaning when you see that thing... :P
<Burgundavia> ironically, my background is "touched by his noodly appendage" with the photoshopped FSM in place of god
<Madpilot> the Sistine Chapel photoshop?
<Burgundavia> yep
* Burgundavia is calling C
<Madpilot> back later, got to reconfigure X to use 3d accel again, dammit...
<Madpilot> back - with 3d again - linux-restricted-modules-<new #> didn't update itself for whatever reason
<Burgundavia> that is because it cannot be built until the linux part is in the archive
<Burgundavia> epiphany does the same thing
<Burgundavia> a solution needs to be found for this problem
<Burgundavia> Madpilot, flight gear just released a new version
<Madpilot> it'll make dapper?
<Burgundavia> most likely
<Madpilot> I'm impressed so far with the Dapper packages - lots of stuff updated to the very latest stable. Nice change from the Breezy/Hoary sameness
<rob1> stable is it?
<Burgundavia> currently the entire archive is not building, so I don't know how stable it is
<rob1> yeah
<bhuvan> folks taking care of kubuntu docs here ?
<bhuvan> wish to discuss couple of changes in kubuntu/Makefile to make it compatible with meinproc
<rob1> can't say I've used meinproc much
<rob1> why do you want kubuntu docs to use that?
<bhuvan> meinproc is to build kde documents
<rob1> in the end it doesn't matter that much
<rob1> not for ubuntu/kubuntu anyway
<bhuvan> it's similar to xsltproc
<rob1> what advantages are there?
<Burgundavia> bhuvan, can I ask why you want to build the kubuntu docs different from the ubuntu docs?
<bhuvan> we can use it to generate the cache file, thus we can display the document in khelpcenter
<rob1> but you can just view html in khelpcenter anyway, right?
<bhuvan> moreover currently the .desktop files are unused. it's meant to be used with meinproc
<bhuvan> the kde docteam uses meinproc to maintain their docs..
<bhuvan> anonsvn.kde.org
<rob1> meinproc doesn't appear to support xincludes
<rob1> unless it does it by default, I can't see any mention in the man page
<Burgundavia> bhuvan, I am more interested in internal consistency with Ubuntu/Kubuntu than with what any upstream does
<Burgundavia> s/with/within
<rob1> I think its up to the kubuntu authors if they want to use meinproc
<bhuvan> imo, kubuntu docs must be compatible with kde apps. ubuntu docs must be compatible with gnome apps
<bhuvan> ok
<Burgundavia> bhuvan, the person you need to talk to mdke, at any rate
<bhuvan> was looking for Riddell, he have done couple of related changes in kubuntu/Makefile
<bhuvan> Burgundavia, sure i'll speak to him
<rob1> anyone can make changes to the make file, but I'm more intrested in keeping riddell/jsgotango happy
<bhuvan> rob1, me too
<rob1> in respect to k* issues anyway
<Burgundavia> bhuvan, I am not directly opposing any shift to two different build systems. I just think that the benefits and costs need to be weighed out
<rob1> hmm.. should "getting help" be another category, or an appendix..
<Burgundavia> and clearly communicated
* rob1 wonders
<Burgundavia> anyway, night
<rob1> cya Burgundavia 
<`6og> hi all
<`6og> I'm just looking at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SSHHowto and  under the "copying files over ssh" heading there is a line like this "bash:~$ scp <file> <username>@<ipaddress>:<!DestinationDirectory>" I'm wondering if that ! is a markup error or if it's supposed to be there for some reason?
<`6og> it's repeated a few lines later as well
<Riddell> bhuvan: hmm?
<WaterSevenUb> hey guys....
<WaterSevenUb> #u-translators has been working in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TranslationTeam
<WaterSevenUb> trying to make it a translation portal for new translators specially
<WaterSevenUb> an idea came out... what about a
<WaterSevenUb> Ubuntu Translation Guide "a la" http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gtp/l10n-guide/
<WaterSevenUb> to ship with ubuntu-docs ?
<mdke> i don't think the world needs another translation guide. That one is enough
<mdke> a guide to using rosetta would be useful
<mdke> make sure you talk to the rosetta guys to make sure that you don't do duplicate work
<`6og> does anyone know about that wiki thing?
<`6og> btw. whos the auther? i have a few comments... (or should i just hack it?)
<mdke> `6og, hack away
<mdke> i don't see that the ! can be intended
<WaterSevenUb> mdke, yeah... perhaps... would be useful to package the gnome guide?
<`6og> ok. thanks. *hopes nothing breaks*
<jsgotangco> hey all
<mdke> WaterSevenUb, i don't think so really
<mdke> why?
<mdke> hi jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> sup
<Madpilot> `6og: it's fairly hard to break the wiki - we can always revert serious messes, or just re-edit others. ;)
<`6og> hi jsgotangco
<jsgotangco> gnome guide?
<`6og> Madpilot:  :)
<`6og> it's more how public the break it, and how i feel about it ;)
<`6og> bbl. hacking
<jsgotangco> hi `6og 
<mdke> good man
<jsgotangco> (hard nick to type)
<`6og> jsgotangco: yeh, sorry
<mdke> ahh
<Kamping_Kaiser> lol
<WaterSevenUb> the only worry that I have is that people now have a easy way to reach launchpad and make some translations
<WaterSevenUb> and they should have basic taughts before doing saw.
<WaterSevenUb> saw=so.
<mdke> WaterSevenUb, there is an easy way to do that
<mdke> before approving people in translating teams, they should read the guides
<mdke> and you should check their translation is of a good quality
<mdke> rosetta is online, so there is no reason why translators shouldn't use online guides. I don't see a need for packaging the translating guide
<WaterSevenUb> well.. checking translations of some guy I think is not yet implemented
<WaterSevenUb> right, zyga?
<mdke> WaterSevenUb, it doesn't need to be
<WaterSevenUb> before approval ... yeah, it's a good suggestion
<mdke> you can check by eye
<zyga> re
<mdke> the italian team has that system
<mdke> (e.g.)
<WaterSevenUb> small teams need to take some momentum before being so restrict with people that want to help...
<mdke> if you go to the people/user page, then click translations, you'll see what packages the person has suggested translations for. Go through it, check them, decide whether the guy speaks good enough english and/or portugese
<zyga> I'm not sure really: it's difficult to see all actuall translations of person X
<zyga> mdke: it's hard to filter that person's translation
<zyga> it's a manual process
<WaterSevenUb> zyga, I agree
<mdke> zyga, not really. I do it regularly
<mdke> especially if a person has made a substantial contribution to untranslated strings
<zyga> hmm, is there any way to sort by translator?
<mdke> not yet
<zyga> well it's easy then
<zyga> I agree about rosetta being online
<mdke> just view untranslated strings
<zyga> but that doc is good enough to likn from the wiki
<WaterSevenUb> so... you think that we should focus on Rosetta usage documentation....
<mdke> zyga, go ahead and link it
<WaterSevenUb> in a newbie perspective?
<WaterSevenUb> with pictures of Rosetta....
<WaterSevenUb> go here... click here.. do that...
<mdke> WaterSevenUb, yes, but ask in #lp
<mdke> because they are probably documenting it too
<WaterSevenUb> mdke, just wondering for now ;)
<zyga> k
<WaterSevenUb> mdke, ok , thx.
<mdke> translation styleguides are very useful, you can definitely link them
<WaterSevenUb> and ubuntu == gnome style?
<WaterSevenUb> :)
<mdke> in l10n-it we use the one at the italian linux translation project, rather than the gnome one
<mdke> WaterSevenUb, all translation style should be consistent IMO
<WaterSevenUb> hhmm...
<mdke> anyhow, it's definitely important to check that people translating Ubuntu know what they are doing, because otherwise it is worse than having no translation at all
<mdke> but this is really OT for #ubuntu-doc, more a question for the translators mailing list
<WaterSevenUb> mdke, thx for your input...
<WaterSevenUb> -> lunch.
<jsgotangco> err we have a styleguide
<jsgotangco> plesae refer to it
<jsgotangco> if it looks a bit thin, please contribute to it
* jsgotangco and jeff improving some parts of styleguide atm
<mdke> we're talking about translation
<mdke> in general, rather than of docs
<jsgotangco> translation howto?
<mdke> that's right
<mdke>  [12:05:18]  < WaterSevenUb> an idea came out... what about a
<mdke>  [12:05:28]  < WaterSevenUb> Ubuntu Translation Guide "a la" http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gtp/l10n-guide/
<mdke>  [12:05:35]  < WaterSevenUb> to ship with ubuntu-docs ?
<jsgotangco> well we did want to incorporate such in the style guide
<jsgotangco> :P
<jsgotangco> but no one seems interested really
<mdke> we're talking about guides for translating in general, not translating documentation
<mdke> my view is that the online ones are enough
<mdke> we don't need to ship external (and irrelevant) documentation in ubuntu-docs
<Kamping_Kaiser> can someone look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SSHHowto. the bit about ssh-copy-id specifically - it says copy to root@remotebox. if remotebox is an ubuntu box, then there is no  (useable) root user... or have  i missed something?
<jsgotangco> like i said we wanted something similar :P
* jsgotangco is not going to argue about semantics
<mdke> i'm not going to argue at all
<mdke> Kamping_Kaiser, i always copy my ssh id to matt@remotebox
<mdke> dunno why root is necessary
<Kamping_Kaiser> so i should change the page ?
* jsgotangco goes back to playing gw
<Kamping_Kaiser> actualy, can i not, i don't know enough about that stuff yet :|
<mdke> i'll take a look later
<Kamping_Kaiser> thanks
<bhuvan> Riddell: ping
<jsgotangco> mdke: :P
<Riddell> bhuvan: pong
<bhuvan> i was looking for you to discuss about using meinproc for kubuntu
<bhuvan> but, mdke made things clear in this email
<bhuvan> s/this/his
<bhuvan> seems, we can defer this proposal atleast till we create kubuntu documents
<Riddell> ?  there are kubuntu documents
<bhuvan> there are. seems, there's no further development ?
<bhuvan> we already started using meinproc for desktopguide
<bhuvan> but, is it worth implementing this for all other documents ?
<Riddell> and the KDE documents use meinproc now
<bhuvan> in addition, seems we must make few more amendments as per my proposal w.u.c/DocteamKubuntu
<Riddell> the trunk branch does everything mentioned in DocteamKubuntu I think
<bhuvan> i guess, no
<bhuvan> meinproc, yes for all kubuntu documents
<bhuvan> as per proposal, things to do includes:  1) rename the files (*.docbook)  2) apply default stylesheet  3) may be merge foo-html & foo-web
<Riddell> I don't see any advantage in renaming to .docbook in the archive but the debian packaging installs them as index.docbook
<Riddell> the default stylesheet is used
<bhuvan> and all other kde apps install them as index.docbook
<Riddell> foo-html is for offline while foo-web is for online, they use different stylesheets
<bhuvan> ok
<bhuvan> imo, we dont have two types of html document for ubuntu docs
<bhuvan> why should we do it just for kubuntu ?
<Riddell> because they use different stylesheets, feel free to fix it so that they use only one though
<bhuvan> guess, it'd be solved if we merge it ?
<bhuvan> let it use kde-default.css
<jjesse> monring
<Riddell> bhuvan: the server-guide under kubuntu is a external (i.e. symlink) to the one in generic, it's just so it can be built using the KDE stylesheet
<bhuvan> o
<bhuvan> ok
<jjesse> Riddell: i think mdke wasw having issues w/ it, is it because it is just a symlink?
<Riddell> jjesse: is what because it's a symlink?
<jjesse> Riddell: i think he tried to remove it from svn yesterday and couldn't do it
<Riddell> "Can somebody remove the
<Riddell> serverguide from the trunk/kubuntu folder? I tried yesterday but it
<Riddell> seems to have been added in a slightly odd way and it wouldn't let me
<Riddell> remove it with "svn delete" or "svn rm"."
<Riddell> bless :)
<jjesse> Riddell: he was getting erors?
<Riddell> spose I should subscribe to ubuntu-doc
<jjesse> Riddell: i added it via svn copy and couldn't delete it either :(
<Riddell> erk
<jjesse> it was discussed on IRC not on the mailing list :)
<jjesse> so you don't neccesarly have to subscribe to yet another list
<bhuvan> jjesse, it was discussed on mailing list as well
<Riddell> I seem to have missed quite a few kubuntu related threads on ubuntu-doc
<jjesse> i just noticed the one on meinproc being discuessed now
<Riddell> oh cool, quicktour in docbook
<Riddell> bhuvan: are you going to add stuff to the makefile for that?
<Riddell> ah, needs a stylesheet still
<jjesse> Riddell: i'm almost done adding/changing the switching your friend to windows guide
<jjesse> sorry from windows
<Riddell> hah, don't get that the wrong way round :)
<jjesse> grin i haven't had my coffee yet thsi morning
<bhuvan> Riddell, based on what you say. imo, we can merge foo-web and foo-html, but except for server guide
<Riddell> bhuvan: why except for server guide?
<jjesse> the server guide should have the same stylesheet as all the kubuntu docs
<jjesse> even if its generic
<Riddell> hmm, mdke removed the external to serverguide, wonder how he's expecting the .deb to be built then
<bhuvan> if we've a link, then i can include serverguide too and merge *-html & *-web
<Riddell> bhuvan: if you do merge -html and -web make sure it doesn't affect the .deb packaging and that it can be done on the webserver using whatever is on there
* Riddell is somewhat nervious that it would break at least one of those two
<bhuvan> if you meant the url, yes i'll try to take care
<Riddell> bhuvan: could you change serverguide to not use <xi:include>, meinproc doesn't understand it
<bhuvan> oh!
<bhuvan> i've not uploaded the recent server guide though
<Riddell> well change it whenever but I can't see a way around it
<bhuvan> ok
<Kamping_Kaiser> sorry to go a different tangent to existing conversation, but rather then "5 3 * * * /usr/bin/apt-get update" as a demonstration of cron, should be use somthing that doesnt A, need to edit roots cron, and B call the same program people will try and use to auto download + apply packages (which afaik is not recomended)
<mdke> Riddell, in breezy, the ubuntu-docs deb was built without external links to generic/faqguide in the gnome/ directory. Also, this "don't use xincludes for your documents" is not something we can just accept blindly. xincludes are a feature of our documentation.
<mdke> i think this needs better discussion
<mdke> i think the best solution may be to use xsltproc, standard xsl stylesheets and the kde css from kdelibs-data
<Riddell> mdke: the external is needed because the kubuntu-docs packages is made from the kubuntu directory not the trunk directory as the ubuntu one is.  you need to either add the external back or change the packaging to be built from one source
<mdke> Riddell, ok i don't have a problem with the one source thing
<mdke> thanks for the "bless" though :)
<Riddell> mdke: so you'll change the packaging for that?
<Riddell> mdke: what's the advantage in using xincludes over the old SYSTEM entities?
<jjesse> can i learn the difference between an xinclude and a SYSTEM entry thru reading the docbook manual or some other place?
<mdke> Riddell, will get back to later, busy at work suddenly
<Riddell> jjesse: see the ubuntu desktop guide for xinclude and the kubuntu desktop guide for SYSTEM entities
<jjesse> Riddell: ok
<Riddell> xinclude is a proper XML way to do it, SYSTEM entities is an older DTD type way
<jjesse> and you are looking to figure out if one is better then the other for packaging?  (sorry trying to learn all of this
<Riddell> jjesse: so if you want to steal the ubuntu desktop guide to start the kubuntu desktop guide you need to convert it to SYSTEM entities first
<Riddell> jjesse: meinproc only does SYSTEM entities, xsltproc also does xinclude stuff
<jjesse> and from early conversation we use meinproc on kubuntu docs correct?
<Riddell> we do
<Riddell> we could change the kubuntu docs to xsltproc but that would also mean working out how to do the index.cache.bz2 and splitting up into individual HTML files by hand
<jjesse> i'm slowly learning, i have the doc book manual and subversion guide to read this weekend :)
<jjesse> Riddell: that sounds like a lot of work
<Riddell> so unless there's any actual advantage in using xincludes (besides it being a more proper way to do it) it would be nice if the ones kubuntu also uses could use SYSTEM entities
<Riddell> docbook manual tells you about the docbook language, but doesn't tell you a great deal about the tools used (which is the where docbook troubles begin in my experience)
<jjesse> is there a place that i can learn about the tools?
<Riddell> dunno, maybe xsltproc has a homepage
<Riddell> probably xincludes does too and there's probably lots of web pages for xslt for all the good they'll do you
<Riddell> meinproc doesn't have a web page as far as I know, I should make one
<jjesse> i was trying to look for one on meinproc couldnt find one, i'll spend some time diggign for xincludes and xslt
<jjesse> Riddell:  ping?
<Riddell> jjesse: honk
<jjesse> Riddell: is there a kubuntu kdedoctools package that would include checkXML and other tools that i can use w/ quanta+
<Riddell> jjesse: don't think so
<Riddell> not sure what quanta needs for docbook
<jjesse> ok i'll keep looking into it
<mdke> Riddell, are you subscribed to the ML? i think its best if we email about this build business, i can't spend much time on irc at the moment cos of work
<Riddell> mdke: I am now
<mdke> Riddell, cool thanks, mailing now
<LaserJock> anybody hear from Unfgiven lately?
<mdke> i've never heard from him/her
<LaserJock> hmm, ok. I was just wondering about the Ubuntu Packaging Guide. He said it would be a couple days on the 5th
<LaserJock> I found a .pdf that was going to be in a Universe package but that's all
<mdke> LaserJock, you asked other MOTUs?
<LaserJock> about Unfgiven? He seems to have disappeared. No one has talked to him for a couple weeks
<mdke> about the guide
#ubuntu-doc 2005-11-29
<LaserJock> well, it seems nobody has heard from Unfgiven for a couple of weeks
<LaserJock> I sent him an email but it appears that the Packaging Guide was only in .pdf and .odt format
<LaserJock> is there a program to convert a .pdf or .odt to docbook? or does that need to be done by hand?
<mdke> LaserJock, openoffice can do it I think
<LaserJock> ok, saved it as docbook .xml
<mdke> cool
<LaserJock> how do I view it?
<mdke> in yelp?
<mdke> or convert it to html using xsltproc or something
<LaserJock> ok converting to html worked, yelp didn't
<mdke> yelp will only read it if it is valid docbook xml
<LaserJock> yeah, that's probably the problem
<LaserJock> hmm, I ran validate.sh on it and it didn't spite anything out
<phin3as> o.o
<mdke> send it over
<LaserJock> to where?
<mdke> mdke@ubuntu.com
<phin3as> Matt, how does one aspire to become an ubuntu member/developer?
<mdke> phin3as, how ever you like. whereever you want to contribute, you just do so
<mdke> phin3as, a good starting point is here:
<mdke> http://www.ubuntu.com/community/participate
<phin3as> :) thanks, I've already visited it however. I have a wiki and whatnot now, I'm just wondering considering I don't have any particular skills, where I'd be most effective.
<mdke> phin3as, documentation is an easy one, if you have writing skills. Otherwise, helping out on the mailing lists and #ubuntu, if you have linux skills, promoting linux to people, etc
<phin3as> I think promotion and documentation would pay off.
<phin3as> Until I get further experitse in other areas.
<mdke> cool
<phin3as> Yeah.
<LaserJock> mdke: did you get my email?
<mdke> LaserJock, haven't checked, i'll have to look tomorrow i'm afraid. I haven't got my regular computer with me
<LaserJock> mdke: ok , no problem
<mdke> thanks
<mdke> good night
<LaserJock> good night
<[cyb3rM4N] > hi
* Burgundavia gets depressed looking at the cleanup category
<Burgundavia> I need a kubuntu user
<phin3as> What for? :)
<Burgundavia> think you could fill in the "In Kubuntu" section under "Enabling graphical root login"?
<Burgundavia> hmm
* Burgundavia goes to town on RestrictedFormats
<Burgundavia> actually restricted formats is actually pretty sane right now
<bhuvan> regarding server guide ..
<bhuvan> i guess we need not repeat the installation section
<bhuvan> i prefer to add assumptions section. let us assume he have referred installation guide and did the installation
<bhuvan> any thoughts ?
<Burgundavia> we should mention how to install a server
<Burgundavia> the server option
<Burgundavia> and i don't know how UbuntuExpress will affect thigns
<bhuvan> ok
<Burgundavia> bon soir, jdub 
<dholbach> hellas
<dholbach> jdub: hey :)
<dholbach> who is familiar with the current svn tree and the ubuntu-docs package enough to help me packaging the current version? i already did a bunch of changes, but some parts are still missing
<rob1> hi
<rob1> whats the prob?
<dholbach> since the 5.10 package a bunch of paths changed
<dholbach> and things like the faqguide
<dholbach> then i'm looking for rosetta tarballs which are expected to be there, but are not
<rob1> everything is now under its respective distro folder now
<dholbach> the only thing i could find was rosetta-quicktour.tar.gz
<rob1> and the faqguide was renamed "desktopguide"
<dholbach> but not in rosetta
<rob1> the rosetta tarballs may have only been in branch
<dholbach> i mean, i can't find them on rosetta :)
<dholbach> this is the current state of the pcakage, i'm working on
<dholbach> http://ubuntu.gplan.info/docs/diff.txt
<rob1> oh yeah, sure because the guides were renamed but obviously rosetta hasn't been updated
<dholbach> the "first package" is the old one, the "second one" is the new one
<dholbach> i feel updating the package without translations is not really a good thing
<rob1> the translations are missing
<rob1> did you pull them both from branch?
<rob1> when you made the .debs
<dholbach> what should i have pulled?
<rob1> the only thing I can think of is its either that or the translations were deleted, however I can't remember seeing it done
<rob1> for breezy it would be branch
<dholbach> no, i'm preparing dapper packages
<rob1> ah
<rob1> there will be no faq guide in dapper
<dholbach> so we can test the newest docs there are
<dholbach> ah ok
<dholbach> so i don't have to worry about that one
<rob1> it will be called the desktop starter guide instead
<dholbach> that's "desktopguide", right?
<rob1> yes, under ubuntu/desktopguide
<dholbach> ok
<rob1> there will also be a server guide in /generic but not much work has been done on it yet
<dholbach> *nod*
<rob1> as far as I'm aware no one has done updated omf files yet either
<dholbach> ok
<dholbach> so i better shouldnt do an upload right now?
<rob1> probably not just yet
<dholbach> ok
<rob1> I will talk to mdke and we will figure out a time when to do the scrollkeeper stuff
<dholbach> i will poke at the packaging a bit and give you a patch of the changes that are required in dapper
<dholbach> that would be cool
<rob1> of cause, once thats done you should be able to package whenever you want
<rob1> ok sounds good
<dholbach> brilliant
<dholbach> thanks for that
<rob1> np
<mdke> dholbach, if you're making a dapper package, you don't need a rosetta tarball because (1) you don't need any translations, and (2) the rosetta tarball shouldn't go in the package anyway
<mdke> translations don't happen until right at the end of the release cycle, so only english should be in the package right now
<dholbach> mdke: hrm - wouldn't it be wise to test those too? (if there are any)
<mdke> dholbach, no because we don't _start_ translating until after the docs are written, after string freeze
<mdke> so there is nothing to test
<mdke> we can setup the environment though i suppose
<dholbach> right
<mdke> you don't need that done for the first upload tho IMO
<dholbach> ok
<dholbach> mdke: i will have a meeting soon, can you tell me, when you have a bit of time, so we could have a look and see how much is missing in my dapper package?
<dholbach> i don't want to knowingly upload something with missing files ;)
<mdke> dholbach, i am free this evening, after about 8 or 9 pm german time...
<dholbach> that sounds excellent
<dholbach> *rejoice*
<mdke> good, i'll ping you
* dholbach hugs mdke 
<dholbach> it's the HUG DAY! :)
* mdke hugs back
<dholbach> :)
<mdke> i love this gnubuntu idea
<mdke> hopefully something will come of it
<dholbach> gnubuntu?
<mdke> a free version of Ubuntu
<mdke> mark's idea i believe
<dholbach> ah cool
<mdke> the idea would be that it get's fsf approval
<dholbach> i think that debian kicked some asses in the right direction with their picky ideas of non-free-ness, so that's a good thing
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> the Ubuntu component selection should make it quite easy to do a free version
<dholbach> jdub: #ubuntu-meeting
* highvoltage loves gnubuntu
<LaserJock> mdke: ping ?
<mdke> LaserJock, yes
<LaserJock> mdke: I would like to get that packaging guide on the docteam repo but I'm not sure since I haven't heard from Unfgiven
<mdke> well it is gpl'd
<LaserJock> I guess that is true.
<LaserJock> by the way, what is the best way to send patches? ubuntu-doc list?
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> so do you want me to upload the packaging guide?
<mdke> i've made a few changes to the code, just so that it's more readable
<mdke> but i dunno why it doesn't work in yelp
<mdke> we should probably give it chapters and such
<LaserJock> mdke: yeah, go ahead and upload it, I don't think Unfgiven will have a problem with that since that is what we were working on anyway
<mdke> done
<LaserJock> thanks
<mdke> feel free to send us patches
<LaserJock> will do
<mdke> i'll have a hack at it too
<mdke> LaserJock, useful templates are in trunk/incoming
<LaserJock> right now it isn't validating
<mdke> eh?
<mdke> i thought it was
<mdke> oh crap
<LaserJock> packagingguide.xml:5: warning: failed to load external entity 
<mdke> crap sorry, fixed now
<dholbach> mdke: how are you?
<mdke> dholbach, good thanks, why??
<dholbach> just so :)
<LaserJock> mdke: should the packaging guide use <book> instead of <article>?
<mdke> i guess that might help
<mdke> dholbach, here i am, is now a good time?
<dholbach> hellas :)
<dholbach> perfect
<dholbach> if it suits *YOU*
<mdke> heh
<mdke> you're so polite
<mdke> let's go
<dholbach> http://ubuntu.gplan.info/docs/diff.txt - is a debdiff of the packages (1 is the breezy package - 2 the current status of the dapper package (which is, of course, not uploaded yet))
<dholbach> the debdiff tells us about some missing packages
<mdke> okay
<dholbach> i tried to figure some stuff out myself and changed debian/install already (you volunteered last time, now i did it last night, when i coudltn sleep)
<mdke> you wanna upload your current package to svn?
<dholbach> i will give back the patch, once it makes more sense ;)
<dholbach> nononono, it's too broken still ;)
<dholbach> once the package makes sense, i'm happy to
<mdke> dholbach, you can break trunk
<dholbach> let me just break dapper :)
<mdke> don't upload it to the breezy branch obviously, but put it in trunk, that way I can see what's going on
<dholbach> i noticed that you need to register some rosetta products
<dholbach> (which are expected from some shell scripts already)
<mdke> dholbach, but you shouldn't be using any of those, as I explained, translations are not for now
<dholbach> i need to clean up my buildtree - the clean target of the package is ... erm ... broken
<dholbach> ok
<mdke> you can remove anything relating to rosetta
<dholbach> just as heads-up
<dholbach> can you tell me, what i obviously missed (from the debdiff)?
<mdke> i can see some things i think
<dholbach> but you need the patch?
<mdke> no, that's ok
<mdke> there shouldn't be a "generic" folder now
<dholbach> in the package or where?
<mdke> also, there is no need to put in the quicktour.xml, the document is broken
<dholbach> ok
<dholbach> will chuck it out
<mdke> dholbach, basically the things which say: /usr/share/ubuntu-docs/generic/faqguide should be /usr/share/ubuntu-docs/desktopguide
<dholbach> *making notes
<mdke> hmm it is pretty difficult to see what's going on
<dholbach> ok
<mdke> you sure you can't upload your changes to svn?
<mdke> don't forget, breaking things is not a problem
<dholbach> pbuilder is working again, this will give me the chance to have the buildtree cleaner and give you the diff asap
<mdke> we have the safe version in the breezy branch
<dholbach> yeah, but i prefer, you breaking svn :)
<LaserJock> mdke: quick question does <para/> mean anything?
<mdke> LaserJock, don't think so
<mdke> dholbach, no problem
<mdke> dholbach, you know anything about omf?
<dholbach> not much
<mdke> we should grab jbailey
<dholbach> i can look things about the buildsystem up in other packages though
<mdke> i don't know what we have to do to make the faqguide->desktopguide change work
<mdke> i presume /usr/share/omf/faqguide/desktopguide-C.omf should be renamed
<mdke> but I don't know if we need to change any other packages
<dholbach> i will investigate in it
<dholbach> *making further notes*
<mdke> jbailey can tell us
<mdke> let's see if he is around?
<dholbach> it's good to hear what belongs where :)
<mdke> dholbach, ok good so that is fine
<dholbach> excellent
<mdke> let's get this in trunk asap and you can tell me how to build and test the package :D
<dholbach> super
<mdke> when did you want to upload it?
<mdke> hi there Burgwork 
<dholbach> i think we can take our time... i'm just happy once we have something to look at... so i'll put some time in cleaning up the patch later and tomorrow
<Burgwork> salut mdke 
<mdke> dholbach, cool, i'm happy to look at it this evening or tomorrow evening
<mdke> Burgwork, hiya, how's it going? you pinged the other day?
<dholbach> rock
<dholbach> thanks a lot, mdke 
<dholbach> i'm very happy how responsive and good-to-work-with you all are
<mdke> dholbach, can you upload just the "install" file? I can take a look at that and check the paths
<dholbach> yeah, sure
<Burgwork> mdke, likely, but I don't remember what for
<dholbach> mdke: http://ubuntu.gplan.info/docs/install
<mdke> i'll upload it shall i?
<dholbach> yeah, if you want to
<mdke> done
<mdke> :)
<mdke> ok let's have a look
<mdke> dholbach, can I take out all the translations?
<mdke> or shall we leave them in?
<dholbach> you should decide that - if the paths will stay the same, we can as well leave them in
<dholbach> they won't break the build
<dholbach> or we can chuck them out, as you like
<mdke> it might be simpler to sort things out to get rid of them
<mdke> is there a way of commenting in that file?
<dholbach> just drop them
<dholbach> i can always debdiff with the old version
<mdke> yes, it is fairly obvious what to do, because we just copy what there is for "C"
* mdke nukes file
<dholbach> yeah
<mdke> ok lemme check the omf files
<mdke> dholbach, ok i've nuked the install file of translations, and updated the omf files. I've committed to svn
<dholbach> excellent
<dholbach> i will do some other stuff for now and poke at it later
<dholbach> thanks a lot for explaining
<mdke> that's alright. i am learning too
<dholbach> thanks anyway :-p
<mdke> np
<mdke> upload the rest of your stuff whenever you can and we can test it :)
<dholbach> yeah
<mdke> dholbach, btw did you change this line in "rules":
<mdke> DEB_SRCDIR = gnome
<dholbach> yes
<mdke> rock
<dholbach> and some others
<dholbach> else i wouldnt have got very far :)
<mdke> oh which others?
<dholbach> ok... i do it now ;)
<mdke> everything else there looks fine, except the SRCDIR
<dholbach> what about the makefile in the generic dir?
<mdke> not needed yet
<dholbach> ok
<mdke> the makefile is only needed for html docs, and the only doc we ship in html is about-ubuntu
<mdke> everything else goes in xml, so no Makefile needed
<dholbach> i will put the patch online and you can have alook - just bear in mind: it was 5-7 in the morning, when i did this ;)
<mdke> we need to change some things in "control" too, unless you've done that already
<Burgwork> jdub, link for the fridge: http://reviews.zdnet.co.uk/0,39023100,39237495,00.htm
<mdke> cool
<dholbach> i did :)
<dholbach> no... i changed just stupid stuff in debian/control, nevermind me
<dholbach> http://ubuntu.gplan.info/docs/build.patch
<dholbach> handle with care :)
<dholbach> i will call it the day for today
<dholbach> good night :)
<Burgwork> bloody machine powercycled at work
<Burgwork> which left 3 of us not able to work
<mdke> :)
<Burgwork> bloody multihead
<mdke> heya rob1 
<mdke_> hi there mgalvin 
#ubuntu-doc 2005-11-30
<jsgotangco> mmm?
<jsgotangco> ROCK?
<jsgotangco> that doesn't sound so mdke 
<mdke> elol
<mdke> lolol
<mdke> damn keyboard
<jsgotangco> :P
<mdke> hello jsgotangco 
<mdke> hey good time to arrive
<mdke> check out my about ubuntu
<mdke> http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/about-ubuntu/C/index.html
<jsgotangco> its only 7:21am
<jsgotangco> heh
* jsgotangco checking it out now
<jsgotangco> wow that's pretty mad css going
<mdke> hardly ;)
<mdke> i copied the background from the old hoary one, and the fonts and stuff is all classic ubuntu fonts
<jsgotangco> ahhh
<mdke> just need to get rid of that double line at the top
<mdke> it is added by the stylesheet i suppose
<jsgotangco> i havent been updating my svn i hvae been studying henrik's opencd with the moin based browser thing
<mdke> ?
<mdke> he said there was a new version out, what is new?
<jsgotangco> updated apps
<jsgotangco> desktop moin
<mdke> lol
<mdke> nice one
<mdke> have you been working on it?
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jsgotangco> the next orchard will have full moin
<mdke> orchard?
<jsgotangco> its the build system
<mdke> i didn't know you worked on theopencd
<mdke> cool
<jsgotangco> not that much, just contributing bits of stuff 
<mdke> tell me more!
<jsgotangco> http://wiki.theopencd.org/MoinBasedBrowser
<mdke> hehe
<mdke> henrik is obsessed with moin :)
<mdke> in a good way
<jsgotangco> mgalvin, ping?
<jsgotangco> there's no 24UTC right?
<mdke> no, not to my knowledge
<jsgotangco> that would be 00 the next day
<jsgotangco> heh
<jsgotangco> mgalvin, i don't think there's a 24UTC
<mdke> is that a docteam meeting?
* mdke looks
<jsgotangco> no a private one =)
<mdke> oh i c
<mdke> for that book eh?
<mdke> how's it going?
<jsgotangco> pretty good
<mdke> how long left?
<jsgotangco> theres work in progress going..
<jsgotangco> oh a bit longer
<mdke> cool
<mdke> it won't be open source will it?
<jsgotangco> ahh i haven't really gone through the licensing yet...
* jsgotangco is busy preparing for a trip next week
<mdke> cool
<mdke> you never know ;)
<mdke> jsgotangco, what time is the next docteam meeting? are we going to rotate them 14 -> 23?
<jsgotangco> i'd like to rotate it
<mdke> i can't remember
<mdke> what time did we rotate it to last time?
<mdke> 22 or 23 i think
<jsgotangco> i belive i said we'll do the next one at 22
<mdke> awesome
* mdke updates
<jsgotangco> at least that would be a saturday morning for me
<mdke> 22 is good for me too
<mdke> rob1, around? i don't think the desktopguide is building
<mdke> rob1, http://pastebin.ca/31009
<Burgwork> mdke, about ubuntu is still too wordy, but the css is nice
<mdke> Burgwork, i haven't changed the words, except to add the section on gnu
<mdke> the words are sabdfl's
<jsgotangco> we'll change it soon, AboutUbuntu isn't that hard really
<mdke> change what?
<jsgotangco> the text if needed
<mdke> the words?
<jsgotangco> "if needed"
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> mark said that he likes them
<mdke> i pointed him at BrowserDefaults today and he suggested that the words could stay the same
<mdke> i think the doc should be shorter too fwiw
<jsgotangco> it shouldn't scroll on a standard resolution
<jsgotangco> well not standard, but the majority resolution
<mdke> i dunno about that
<mdke> the ubuntu website scrolls
<mdke> but shorter sections would be good
<jsgotangco> there must be a way to make this look more interesting..
<mdke> something I really want to figure out how to do is how to include the Ubuntu top bar on all our docs
<jsgotangco> use a kde stylesheet haha
<mdke> that doesn't do it either ;)
<mdke> http://kubuntu.org/docs/kquickguide/C/
<mdke> but it must be really easy
<Burgwork> mark is on crack, to be honest
<Burgwork> start.ubuntu.com is going to take the words away, finally
<jsgotangco> its a very good toolchain
<mdke> Burgwork, will start.ubuntu.com be both online and offline, depending on whether the user has internet access?
<Burgwork> no idea
<mdke> also, don't forget that the spec isn't approved
<Burgwork> the most likely usecase is that someone opens a browser to go on the web
<Burgwork> if they have  browser open offline, they either have a local apache install or have opening an html file from nautilus
<Burgwork> in either case, it doesn't really matter
<mdke> i agree with that.
<mdke> but a lot of people don't
<Burgwork> I think the number of people who open a browser before they have internet access is vanishingly small
<Burgwork> a thus you must satisfy the 95%, who don;t want a giant block of text as their homepage
<mdke> well i hope that about ubuntu is useful to at least some people
<Burgwork> we should keep the document
<jsgotangco> sure
<Burgwork> just don;t have it is the default homepage
* mdke nods
<mdke> what are we gonna do with the document though?
<Burgwork> it can be linked off of start
<Burgwork> and we can ship it
<mdke> it looks crap in yelp tho
<mdke> best just to move it to the website and be done with it :D
<Burgwork> probably
<mdke> oh well
<Burgwork> then it probably should be at www.ubuntu.com/about
* mdke nods
<mdke> currently that stuff is at /ubuntu
<Burgwork> can you ping hendrik about that?
<mdke> what, to change the url?
<Burgwork> yes
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> we'll have to put some redirects in
<Burgwork> oh, and www.ubuntu.com, the upper left, the graphic is corrupted
<Burgwork> but on the wiki
<Burgwork> but not
<mdke> corrupted how?
<mdke> looks the same here
<mdke> have you seen the moin version of the site?
<Burgwork> http://img308.imageshack.us/my.php?image=screenshotubuntulinuxforhumanb.png
<Burgwork> oh
<Burgwork> should I file a bug about this
<mdke> where is the corruption?
<Burgwork> look above the tabs
<Burgwork> see the streaking?
<mdke> _above_ yes
<mdke> argh
<mdke> i mean yes
<mdke> Burgwork, that is upper right :)
<Burgwork> oh
<mdke> interesting, i don't get it in firefox
<jsgotangco> brb
<Burgwork> I did that yesterday with my brother
<mdke> Burgwork, if you don't see it here, probably forget about it and wait for the new site
<mdke> http://69.60.114.106/
<Burgwork> I see it there, but not as bad
<mdke> then file it i guess
<Burgwork> I just pinged hendrik
<mdke> he's not online
<Burgwork> by email
<mdke> aha
<mdke> that'll do the trick
<Burgwork> just found one more thing
<Burgwork> the favico needs to be transparent
<mdke> yeah that would be nice
<Burgwork> the fonts don't look as good in the moin version
<Burgwork> they are too small
<mdke> i think it is the line spacing
<Burgwork> looks at the tabs
<Burgwork> the words are much smaller their
<Burgwork> s/their/there
<mdke> 1.25 as apposed to 1.5 line spacing
<mdke> yeah that was intentional
<Burgwork> ugh
<Burgwork> that makes them harder to read
<mdke> the tabs?
<mdke> i preferred em bigger too
<Burgwork> we need less words and more space on the website
<mdke> refresh
<mdke> that's about the same as ubuntu.com i think
<mdke> Burgwork
<Burgwork> yup?
<mdke> you see the difference?
<mdke> that is 1.5 spacing rather than 1.25
<Burgwork> yes I do
<Burgwork> anything that decreases space is a bad thing
<mdke> ok changing back now, i've mailed henrik to suggest increasing space
<Burgwork> do you have full control over that moin install?
<mdke> well...
<mdke> i have admin rights on that server
<mdke> the amount of control is limited by the fact that I don't know what I'm doing that well
<mdke> i'm no moin expert
<Burgwork> ah
* Burgwork wants to go to town on the number of words on the main page
<mdke> lol
<mdke> don't do that
<mdke> but you have a good point
<Burgwork> ah yes
<Burgwork> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RestrictedFormats?action=diff&rev2=135&rev1=134
<Burgwork> guess who made that edit ;)
<mdke> lots of words really are just an excuse for not bothering to structure the site carefully
<mdke> you?
<Burgwork> or somebody being paid by the black pixel
<Burgwork> yep
<Burgwork> those two paragraphs could be said in one
<mdke> heh
<mdke> good edit
<Burgwork> if the person was interested in more, they can google the topic
<mdke> although, perhaps the word "patent" wouldn't go amiss
<mdke> or a link to a page which explains what free means
<mdke> oh, you've done that :)
<mdke> awesome
<Burgwork> actually, RestrictedFormats is quite sane right now
<Burgwork> and quite well formatted
<Burgwork> I just needed to tweak it now
<Burgwork> hmm, I make a great deal of sense right now
<mdke> :)
<mdke> yeah, no other linux distros have so many words on their websites
<mdke> well gentoo probably does, but it's all news
<Burgwork> gentoo is in the middle of redesigning the website
<LaserJock> mdke: I got the packaging guide to open in yelp
<mdke> LaserJock, cool!
<mdke> LaserJock, wanna send a patch?
<LaserJock> mdke: well, in a bit. I am still trying to clean it up a bit.
<LaserJock> gotta get lunch, I'll be back in an hr or so
* Burgwork wonders whether he should approve mako to be a member of the doc team
<mdke> don't see why not
<mdke> although that team will eventually govern commit access so we should probably limit it to contributors
<mdke> Burgwork, ask him why he applied
<Burgwork> I approved him
<Burgwork> I don't harm in letting him have commit access
<mdke> no, this is a good point
<Burgwork> lets just say he is not an unknown
<mdke> he applied recently? odd, hopefully he is thinking of doing some doc work :)
<Burgwork> he applied today
<Burgwork> Benjamin Mako Hill   	2005-11-25  	  	Approved
<mdke> cool
<Burgwork> what about having the wiki team as part fo the doc team
<mdke> it is already I thought
<mdke> i dunno if that would screw around with commit access
<Burgwork> can we make it so that only people who are actually members and not members through another gropu have access?
<mdke> not sure
<mdke> they haven't sorted out the commit access thing anyway
<mdke> they are working on it for bzr... but i don't think it's finished
<Burgwork> I was chatting with SteveA, he said that fine grained access control was coming
<mdke> yeah, but bzr only I think
<mdke> i spoke to spiv last night about it
<Burgwork> they are looking to make the auth mechanism quite plugable
<mdke> anyhow we can think about bzr soon anyway
<Burgwork> yes
<Burgwork> I like dapper+1 myself
<Burgwork> even now is too late into the cycle to really switch
<mdke> assuming it will work for us, dapper+1 is fine by me
* apokryphos sees http://doc.gwos.org and wonders why there's another duplication of effort :D
<mdke> i'm not convinced, and spiv kinda confirmed this, that we need a decentralised version control system
<mdke> but apparently they are working on a centralised thing for bzr anyway
<Burgwork> cvs mode
<mdke> apokryphos, yeah, we've had quite a lot of discussion with that group
<mdke> Burgwork, http://bazaar.canonical.com/LockStepDevelopment
<Burgwork> hmm
<Burgwork> I realized why moin pisses me off so much
<apokryphos> mdke: what's the deal with it? Are they archiving stuff or just on another whole project? Seems like there already is (i) a doc team; (ii) a wiki
<Burgwork> 1) It assumes content is more important that presentation
<Burgwork> 2)It assumes that the editors have other means of communicating
<Burgwork> Mediawiki assumes neither of these things
<mdke> apokryphos, start about http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=81666&page=3
<apokryphos> thanks
<mdke> apokryphos, about post 25 (me)
<mdke> then go over the page
<apokryphos> arggh
<apokryphos> really don't like to generalize here, but linux+forums ends up always aggrevating me :/
<mdke> i used to love the gentoo forums
<mdke> whenever I post in ubuntuforums, I always find myself struggling to make peace and promote discussion
<apokryphos> precisely. I stepped in the other day to say that constructive criticism and patches for programs are good, and I got called a "moron" and a troll. Gah.
<mdke> that doc.gwos thing is such a shame, because so much great effort goes into it which could go into the wiki
<dholbach> hi
<apokryphos> 'zactly; we should be able to reason through things like that -- it's made too difficult
<mdke> apokryphos, i spent a lot of hours on it, not just in that forum thread but also on irc and by email, no good
<mdke> dholbach, hi
<apokryphos> I guess when people don't want to reason, they simply won't.
<dholbach> mdke: did we agree on 5.11-1 as a version number?
<mdke> dholbach, no, but that is fine by me
<dholbach> mdke: or maybe better 5.11.1, 5.11.2, 5.11.3
<dholbach> hmmm
<mdke> dholbach, whichever you prefer
<dholbach> :)
<apokryphos> 5.11.1!
<apokryphos> damn those hyphens :-O
<dholbach> 5.11.1-1 :)
<mdke> heh
<mdke> dholbach, so in terms of building docs, all that is necessary should be "make gdeb" in the ubuntu directory
<dholbach> i do     debuild
<dholbach> which i do in every other package too
* mdke doesn't know how that works
<mdke> what calls the "make gdeb"?
<dholbach> if you have a look at debian/rules
<dholbach> (that's the package makefile)
<mdke> oh yeah
<dholbach> an obfuscated version of it
<mdke> cool
<mdke> hi there jjesse 
<jjesse> hello mdke
<jjesse> just upgraded to kde3.5rc2 :)
<jjesse> boy is it slow here at work today over 1/2 of the company is gone
<mdke> holidays?
<dholbach> you normally have build targets in packages like build, clean, binary, ... - but jbailey wrote large parts of cdbs (which is used in this package), which hide the internals of a package build system and make it easier
<jjesse> mdke: yeah day after thanksgiving
<mdke> dholbach, ah i see
<mdke> jjesse, turkey leftovers eh
<jjesse> mmm turkey :)
<apokryphos> jjesse: try out kopete -- many advances 8)
<mdke> dholbach, so did you svn up?
<dholbach> svn export
<jjesse> apokryphos: yeah?  i'll have to check them out
<apokryphos> smooth scrolling, full webcam support, other convenientisms, and other msn-messenger-type things (i.e. nudges etc(
<mdke> dholbach, cool, how is it lookin?
<dholbach> mdke: will build in a sec
<mdke> :)
<jjesse> apokryphos: it looks a lot cleaner
* apokryphos nods
<dholbach> mdke: does this look cool to you? http://ubuntu.gplan.info/docs/package-diff.txt
<dholbach> mdke: translations dropped, some pictures changed, serverguide added (to sum it up, if i didn't overlook anything)
<dholbach> Version: [-5.10-6-]  {+5.11-1+}
<dholbach> Installed-Size: [-6360-]  {+984+}
<mdke> ooh hang on
<dholbach> ^ this is just a bit worrying ;)
<mdke> what is worrying?
<dholbach> 6,3MB -> 984 KB
<dholbach> ;)(
<mdke> oh, that's just the translations
<mdke> i need an image moving
<dholbach> which one?
* dholbach hangs on
<mdke> can you add this line to debian/install
<mdke> ubuntu/images/C/ubuntuheader.png usr/share/ubuntu/help/images/C
<dholbach> should all the documents be registered?
<mdke> i wanna check one more thing too
<mdke> i don't understand these:
<mdke> /usr/share/ubuntu/libs/cdo-C.ent
<mdke> /usr/share/ubuntu/libs/global.ent
<dholbach> they don't seem to get installed in the new package
<dholbach> errrrr, they GET installed in the new package
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> hmm
<dholbach> ls that wrong?
<mdke> the last package had this:
<mdke> libs/*ent usr/share/ubuntu-docs/libs
<mdke> libs/*ent usr/share/gnome/libs
<mdke> gnome/libs/*ent usr/share/gnome/help/libs
<mdke> gnome/libs/*ent usr/share/ubuntu-docs/gnome/libs
<mdke> dholbach, can I change the debian/install and insert those, then you go an svn up?
<dholbach> hm, did i mess with this?
<mdke> dunno
<dholbach> gnome/libs -> ubuntu/libs, right?
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> and usr/share/ubuntu-docs/libs
<dholbach> right
<mdke> dholbach, are you gonna change it, or shall I?
<dholbach> i change it in the package - you do in svn?
<mdke> okay... you can't do svn up there?
<dholbach> i don't think, i have an account
<mdke> svn up just pulls the new changes
<mdke> i'll commit and you can pull em?
<dholbach> i'm clearly not as experienced with svn :)
<dholbach> i changed it here already
<dholbach> i will install the package and see how it works for me
<mdke> hang on again :)
<mdke> i actually don't see any difference between the debian/install in our trunk and the one in branches/breezy, so I don't understand why those two extra files are there
<dholbach> you created/moved those .ent files afterwards?
<dholbach> and they got in because of the '*'?
<mdke> but why are they in a strange place?
<mdke> /usr/share/ubuntu/libs
<mdke> oh i see it
<mdke> perhaps we can just remove that line
<mdke> libs/*ent usr/share/ubuntu/libs
<dholbach> ubuntu/images/C/UbuntuLogo.png usr/share/ubuntu/help/images/C
<dholbach> ubuntu/images/C/IconUbuntu.png usr/share/ubuntu/help/images/C
<dholbach> seem to be typos too
<dholbach> must have been, early in the morning
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> it's because you/me changed gnome to ubuntu
<mdke> it should have remained "gnome" i think
<dholbach> right, what about that other stuff going to    usr/share/gnome/... 
<mdke> i think the "Files in first .deb but not in second" are fine
<dholbach> cool
<dholbach> that makes me happy
<mdke> with the exception
<dholbach> and brings christmas a bit closer :)
<mdke> of those two images you pointed out, and *ent
<dholbach> right, let's see how they look after the next build
<mdke> cool
<dholbach> http://ubuntu.gplan.info/docs/package-diff3.txt
<mdke> lookin
<dholbach> sitll one /ubuntu/ item
<dholbach> found it
<mdke> i think that those ents and the pngs should be in the same place as for the breezy package
<mdke> perhaps they are... it's difficult to see from the diff
<mdke> we should have /usr/share/gnome/help/images/C/IconUbuntu.png
<dholbach> if you have the normal package installed, it should be all in /var/lib/dpkg/info/ubuntu-docs.list
<mdke> /usr/share/gnome/help/images/C/UbuntuLogo.png
<mdke> in our package as well
<dholbach> or you can run    dpkg -c    on the deb
<dholbach> hrm, they're in ubuntu-docs/...
<dholbach> one of them is symlinked though
<mdke> hmm
* dholbach links the other one too
<mdke> we just need to preserve the situation from breezy for those
<mdke> everything *ent and *png should be in the same place
<dholbach> why were they linked before?
<mdke> i think we need them both in /usr/share/gnome/help (for about ubuntu) and /usr/share/ubuntu-docs for the other documents
<dholbach> ok
<dholbach> that's what i just did
<dholbach> for both .png
<mdke> great
<dholbach> ok, looks MUCH better now
<dholbach> http://ubuntu.gplan.info/docs/package-diff4.txt
<dholbach> "Files in first .deb but not in second" now contains the .omf and .xml (which should be translated) and quicktour png files
* mdke is starting to lose track :)
<mdke> afaics looks good
<dholbach> sorry
<dholbach> :)
<dholbach> now i get     cannot create dhelp file '/usr/share/doc/ubuntu-docs/HTML/en/quicktour/C/.dhelp': File not found
<mdke> we can iron out any minor troubles, I think it is all good
* dholbach will track it down
<mdke> the quicktour shouldn't be in there
<dholbach> yep
<dholbach> i drop debian/ubuntu-docs.doc-base.quicktour
<mdke> sounds good
<dholbach> now lintian complains about a too long extended description - that's in debian/control
<dholbach> i will trim it a bit
<dholbach> but that's rather silly :)
<dholbach> oh yes... those should be just 80 chars
<dholbach> per line
<mdke> ok, cool
<dholbach> i know it's fascistic, but anyway, i'll change it
<mdke> sure
<dholbach> and we'll have NEW docs soon! WOW! :)
* dholbach can't believe it :)
<jjesse> wahooo!!!
<jjesse> :)
<mdke> this is exciting
<mdke> dholbach, send me a diff of what you've changed and I'll apply it to our trunk
<mdke> but we need to get you commit access
<dholbach> you don't want me to :-p
<dholbach> next time i test this, i won't do it on my laptop ... the disk is so effing slow
<dholbach> it installs and it doesnt explode
<dholbach> WOW
<dholbach> let's have a look, where i can see all this funky documentation
<mdke> in yelp
<mdke> also, firefox homepage should be a bit prettier
<dholbach> file:///usr/share/ubuntu-artwork/home/index.html ?
<mdke> think so yeah
<dholbach> hrm, it should normally show some pictures or something, no?
<mdke> just the logo
<dholbach> it doesnt show anything now
<dholbach> and yelp is broken in dapper
<dholbach> YAY
<dholbach> :)
<mdke> cool
<dholbach> doesnt show pictures i mean
<mdke> ok
<mdke> on breezy, the logo is in file:///usr/share/images/C/UbuntuLogo.png
<dholbach> ok, here's what i will do now: i will upload the .deb package to my place, send you the diff
<mdke> the new one should be file:///usr/share/images/C/ubuntuheader.png
<dholbach> i hope we'll get yelp sorted out again
<mdke> hope so
<mdke> but yelp is pretty shit for our documentation anyway
<dholbach> trying (in vain) to upload a package to the archive now, is probably not the best thing to do :)
<mdke> hmm
<dholbach> you want to have it uploaded?
<mdke> no, that's cool
<mdke> as long as our svn is up to date
<mdke> we can upload whenever
<dholbach> ok
<dholbach> cool
<dholbach> i don't mind, if we upload a package and an image is missing
<mdke> me neither
<mdke> but I can fix that quickly
<dholbach> but if i can't have a look with yelp, that's something different ;)
<mdke> so yelp breaking is not our fault?
<mdke> it was already broken?
<dholbach> yes
<dholbach> because of the new firefox in dapper
<mdke> ahh
<mdke> fine
<dholbach> yelp relies on firefox for the rendering
<dholbach> yeah, great! :)
<mdke> well I'm sure that will be fixed quickly
<mdke> send me the patch, then I'll fix the image thing, and we can upload once yelp is fixed
<dholbach> thanks a lot
<mdke> or before, if you like
<dholbach> i will try looking at the package tomorrow with a breezy-livecd :)
<mdke> rock
<dholbach> i messed up the build dir and the .deb is just 140K big now
<dholbach> i will have to investigate
<dholbach> but i think i won't do that now, but just get out and have a beer somewhere :)
<dholbach> sorry to disappoint you there, but i'll mail you
<dholbach> i'm just a bit tired today
<mdke> dholbach, np
<dholbach> have a nice weekend guys :)
* dholbach hugs mdke 
* dholbach hugs everybody else
<mdke> see ya :)
<rob1> wow.. full house today
<rob1> theres only like 4 people away
<mdke> yo
<rob1> hi mdke
<mdke> rob1, i meant to ask you, do you know why the internal links don't work in the desktopguide xml?
<mdke> that olink stuff, is it just for the html?
<rob1> the olink stuff is for olinks within the document
<rob1> I haven't done them yet (they are still all xrefs)
<rob1> but they still should be working
<rob1> at least they do here when I build html using the /ubuntu Makefiles
<mdke> rob1, can you try opening the xml in yelp
<mdke> ?
<rob1> they work for me there too
<rob1> hang on
<rob1> yep the xrefs are working in yelp for me
<rob1> well, they are forwarding to the right page
<rob1> the olinks will forward to the exact link
<mdke> hmm
<rob1> thats why we have the db files, the olinks use them to find where the link is
<mdke> dunno why I couldn't get them to work
<mdke> rob1, anyhow, what files apart from xml need to go in the package?
<rob1> well all the xml files including olinkdb.xml, plus the db directory (and you need to run the make file at least once to create the .db files)
<mdke> gosh
<rob1> and sample
<mdke> ok
#ubuntu-doc 2005-12-01
<LaserJock> mdke: ok I got the inital reformating of the packaging done. How do you want it? I made enough changes that the diff is twice a big as the individual files
<mdke> lol
<mdke> LaserJock, however you prefer
<LaserJock> should I just email it to you or would it be better to send it to ubuntu-doc?
<mdke> LaserJock, to me is fine, i'll stick it up tonight
<LaserJock> k
<LaserJock> I sent it to you. I hope it worked ok. It is my first time doing documentation or Docbook or xml.
<mdke> LaserJock, I'll check it out when i reboot into breeeeeezy
<LaserJock> mdke: np, take your time. I gotta get some more merges done for the MOTU ;-)
<mdke> good stuff
<mdke> LaserJock, is there anything new in gnome-blog?
<mdke> merging that would be cool
<mdke> if there is
<LaserJock> mdke: doesn't look like it. Debian is 0.8-5 and that is what we have in Dapper
<mdke> damn lazy maintainers
<LaserJock> I've never used it but it looks like 0.9 has been out since march
<mdke> LaserJock, nice work, looks great
<LaserJock> thanks, it's a start anyway
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> just needs a bit of tidying up and a diagram
<LaserJock> yeah, the diagram
<LaserJock> I see it in the pdf
<mdke> how does it look in html?
<mdke> shall we stick it up on the preview server?
<LaserJock> how does what look like in html? the packaging guide
<mdke> yeah
<LaserJock> I guess it looks fine
<LaserJock> I just did a quick xsltproc on it and everything was there at leas ;-)
<LaserJock> t
<LaserJock> how does the css part work?
<mdke> i'll have a look now
<mdke> LaserJock, ok i've made you a make target to build the html from the generic directory
<LaserJock> ok, I see that
<LaserJock> cool
<LaserJock> ok, I was able to make a .jpg of the missing diagram
<LaserJock> but where is it supposed to go?
<mdke> good question :)
<LaserJock> looks like the install guide used generic/images/C/
<mdke> oh i see
<mdke> yes, that is fine, or use generic/packagingguide/images/
<mdke> whatever you like
<LaserJock> do I need to worry about the language? should I have generic/packagingguide/image/C/?
<mdke> yeah you can do that
<mdke> if there is a translation, they put it in, if not, it uses C
<LaserJock> k
<mdke> see the top of ubuntu/aboutubuntu/C/about-ubuntu.xml for how to insert a picture
<mdke> awesome work man
<LaserJock> does the makefile need to be modified to add the image?
<LaserJock> it shows up in yelp but not sure about html
<mdke> no that's fine
<mdke> i'll tweak it if necessary
<LaserJock> mdke: ok, I just sent you a diff and image
<mdke> LaserJock, on it now
<mdke> LaserJock, done, great work dude
<LaserJock> sweet
<mdke> LaserJock, http://doc.ubuntu.com/generic/packagingguide/C/
<mdke> is that ok by you?
<LaserJock> wow, cool
<mdke> adding a link to the frontpage then
<mdke> http://doc.ubuntu.com/
<LaserJock> ok, so now when I want to work on it from now on should I just email a patch to ubuntu-doc?
<mdke> sure
<LaserJock> ok, thanks so much for you help
<mdke> LaserJock, do you think you'll be working on it fairly steadily? it will be worth getting commit access if so
<LaserJock> mdke: I sure hope so, I am also working on the MOTU wiki so I am kinda turning into the MOTU documentation guy right now
<mdke> LaserJock, in that case we can try and get you some commit access, i'll ask the rest of the team. Are you an Ubuntu member?
<LaserJock> mdke: not yet, I am going to go for that soon I think. I have just been waiting until I had made enough contributions.
<mdke> great
<mdke> i think there was a decision taken to only grant commit access to ubuntu members
<mdke> but that seems rather silly to me
<mdke> i'll ask around
<LaserJock> mdke: well, I can understand if I need to wait.
<LaserJock> I can see where there needs to be some sort of proof of maturity
<mdke> sure, but I already get the feeling you know what you're doing
<mdke> LaserJock, don't forget to stick a licence on the doc
<LaserJock> mdke: well, I can atleast assure you that I will ask before I do anything risky ;-)
<mdke> :)
<LaserJock> mdke: beyond &copyright; &disclaimer; &legalnotice; &publisher; ?
<mdke> LaserJock, we usually put the licences on at the end of the document in full, but now that you mention it, I think what you've done is good enough
<LaserJock> I just copyed what is in the install guide
<mdke> okies
<LaserJock> but that is still  a WIP though right?
<mdke> oh yeah
<LaserJock> is the desktop starter guide a good doc to look at for learning
<mdke> it's a bit complicated
<mdke> it is in more than one file, and has all sorts of crazy stuff going on to make links work
<LaserJock> yeah, I just noticed that. Is there a better one to get started with?
<mdke> LaserJock, hmm, maybe not :)
<mdke> jsgotangco, hello
<LaserJock> mdke: oh well, I'll just have to dig right in ;-)
<mdke> jsgotangco, can you tell me, what was that decision in the meeting the other day about commit access?
<mdke> LaserJock, :) there are some decent docbook guides. But you already seem to know your way around ok
<LaserJock> mdke: well, I have been using the wiki info and the Docbook  Definitive Guide online but I am more interested in some of the stuff specific to the docteam
<mdke> LaserJock, i'm not sure there is much tbh
<LaserJock> mdke: that's ok, I will just dig around and ask here if I get stuck
<mdke> great
<jsgotangco> hey you
<jsgotangco> sorry i was looking at the commits
<jsgotangco> mdke: all committers should be members first
<mdke> jsgotangco, Ubuntu members?
<mdke> i think that will be a problem
<jsgotangco> mdke: that's what most of the other attendees suggested (Riddell, ogra, jbailey, etc.)
<mdke> its a catch 22
<jsgotangco> it'll pose a problem for those who have no interest on membership yet want to contribute to docs
<mdke> you have to be a member to commit
<jsgotangco> yes that's correct
<mdke> but you have to be a regular contributor to be a member
<jsgotangco> but on the other side
<mdke> so it will take longer to be either
<jsgotangco> any active contributor can easily become a member based on work
<mdke> i noticed at the last CC meeting that the CC are not easy with giving people membership, sustained contributions are required and patches don't convince them much
<mdke> i think getting commit access should be easier than ubuntu membership
<jsgotangco> well just look at bhuvan's case
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> mako hesitated about bhuvan
<jsgotangco> he easily got in based on visibile contribs
<jsgotangco> ahh
<mdke> he didn't easily get in
<jsgotangco> i didn't know that
<mdke> he got in just about, and I gave him a glowing report
<jsgotangco> what do you suggest?
<mdke> and he has a really good wiki page, in which every patch he's done is listed
<mdke> well, if others disagree, i don't mind
<mdke> but i'd suggest that we decide on commit access at our meetings
<mdke> signing the CoC mandatory, of course
<mdke> but not full membership
<jsgotangco> hmmm
<jsgotangco> my reason for agreeing to membership first before commit is that we're still using ubuntu servers and in no way different from uploading packages like what the devs do
<jsgotangco> and members have already shown sustainable contribs even on other fields 
<mdke> yeah but I think it is slightly different for the work we do
<mdke> docs is a good first entry for many
<jsgotangco> i wouldn't think differently
<mdke> also, we are short staffed, so sponsoring uploads (patches) is time consuming
<LaserJock> would something like REVU that the MOTU use be useful?
<jsgotangco> well because we try to do everything at once
<jsgotangco> LaserJock: that would be helpful
<mdke> what does it do?
<LaserJock> mdke: you upload source packages for the MOTU to review and include in Universe
<LaserJock> mdke: as long as you have a GPG key you can do it
<mdke> right, but a human being still has to review them right?
<LaserJock> mdke: then the MOTU review it and provide comments
<mdke> well that is basically what we do with the mailing list - patch system
<LaserJock> mdke: yes,  but it is easier I think because it is all on a website
<mdke> anyhow, my point is really that technical competence and ability has nothing to do with ubuntu membership, they look for sustained contribution over a period
<LaserJock> but I have noticed that it still takes a lot of time to get stuff in because there is only so much time the MOTU have to review packages
<mdke> if someone turns up who has written 3 debian books and is a master in xml, he wouldn't be able to have commit access for several months
<mdke> because he has to be an ubuntu member first
<mdke> LaserJock, yeah, it boils down to resources problems in the end I guess
<jsgotangco> mdke: it doesn't if a person contributes something in OOo its still a contribution, membership is about contribution and peer approval in my opinion
<mdke> jsgotangco, over several months
<jsgotangco> members just makes filtering easier
<jsgotangco> mdke: debian has it worse really
<mdke> well, considering that we've been working to make contributing to the docteam easier, i think this is a step backwards
<mdke> anyhow, np
<mdke> LaserJock, you'll have to wait :)
<jsgotangco> we lack structure hence we always end up in a stalemate on some issues
<LaserJock> mdke: I'm certainly ok with that. It would be easier if I did have commit access but hopefully I will be a member soon
<jsgotangco> it wouldn't be aproblem if our svn is somewhere else really
<jsgotangco> but elmo's the guy handling it so...
<jsgotangco> a move to another system would break the social barriers although its also a catch 22
<mdke> jsgotangco, i don't follow you
<mdke> what social barriers?
<jsgotangco> the social structure of svn itself
<jsgotangco> who approves commits
<mdke> don't confuse those two issues
<jsgotangco> who creates the accounts
<mdke> one issue is the amount of time it takes to create accounts
<jsgotangco> im not its still part of the issue though
<mdke> another separate issue is when we consider a person ready to ask for elmo to create the accounts
<mdke> the first issue is not a social barrier
<mdke> the second issue is up to us
<jsgotangco> you know my schedule for now, i really can't commit heavily on such matters
<mdke> yep
<jsgotangco> i'm just starting with my new job..
<jsgotangco> :(
<mdke> well i am also quite busy, and i want to do lots of things, hence my frustration at having to sponsor uploads for long periods of time
<jsgotangco> hmmm
<mdke> our lack of people is part of my reasoning to not limit commit access to members
<jsgotangco> i'll try to look what's lacking in our wiki its probably just an internal doc thing :)
<mdke> what is lacking?
<jsgotangco> like i said, i'll try to look :P
<mdke> i don't think anything is dude
<jsgotangco> i'd still look
<mdke> i'm bitching purely about this "membership before svn access" decision
<jsgotangco> well if you ask what my gripe is, is that no one attends meetings at all
<mdke> well, the team is not big
<mdke> i can make every other meeting
<Madpilot> I'd make meetings, if most of them weren't at 0600 local ;)
<jsgotangco> let me add the next meeting in lp
<mdke> Madpilot, what time is the next one for you?
<mdke> we have been alternating quite a lot
<Madpilot> 1400Z = 0600 local; when is the next one?
<jsgotangco> it'll be 22UTC next time
<mdke> 22
<jsgotangco> the thing depends on local time
<jsgotangco> sheeshh
<jsgotangco> can we make it 24?
<Madpilot> that's 1400 local - I'm always at work... bleh
<mdke> jsgotangco, what time is 24 where you are, in australia, US etc?
<jsgotangco> 24 would be 8am here and probably 10am in au
<Madpilot> 2400Z is 1600 PST, and 1900 Eastern in North America
<jsgotangco> 4pm just like jeff's time
<mdke> sounds good
<jsgotangco> 24 then?
<jsgotangco> hahah great that means i'll be in seoul during the meeting
* mdke goes to sleep, having spammed the commit list enough for one day
<jsgotangco> nvm i'll just stick with 22
<LaserJock> mdke: thanks for all your help
<mdke> any time
<Madpilot> I'm going to be rearranging my working days a bit in the new year, hopefully I'll be able to make the 2200Z meetings at least some of the time then... (that'll be a bonus, I'm rearranging my hours for other reasons...)
<jsgotangco> please check your lp calendar if you're subscribed to udp calendar and check if its correct
<jsgotangco> hmm i already got to add it...
<jsgotangco> lp doesn't have a delete function
<jsgotangco> heh
<jsgotangco> im going to cook earlyer
<jsgotangco> brb
<LaserJock> what is the best way to make patches to send to ubuntu-doc?
<LaserJock> ah, maybe svn diff
<Burglaptop> too many of me!
<LaserJock> at work and on the laptop 
<Madpilot> Burglaptop: you aren't still at work, are you?
<Burglaptop> nope
<Burglaptop> I just didn't logoff at work
<Madpilot> http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/25659737/
<Burglaptop> holy crap!
<Madpilot> NSFW, though ;)
<Burglaptop> indeed
<Burglaptop> is kde 3.5 released?
<Burglaptop> I see the i18n stuff going in
<Burglaptop> kde would be smart to adopt a six month release cycle, three months off from gnome
<Burglaptop> Madpilot, grr, not registered
<Burglaptop> Madpilot, yes I will be coming on Sun afternoon
<Madpilot> no pm, then?
<Burglaptop> yep
<Madpilot> OK - D & A are coming for dinner, you're welcome to stay & invite C too
<Burglaptop> on Sun d&a for dinner at your place?
<Burglaptop> you certain the dirty dishes won
<Burglaptop> t kill them?
<Madpilot> Clive only left on Tuesday, the dishes haven't had time to evolve yet :D
<Burglaptop> colour scheme for a website: http://www.returnofdesign.com/showcolors.php?scheme=37
<Madpilot> nice find - bookmarked
<bhuvan> doubt in ubuntu membership process..
<Burglaptop> Madpilot, I think I am going to use it for my website
<Burglaptop> and any company I eventually launch
<bhuvan> after becoming the member, is it just fine to sign the coc in lp .. or should we require to send the signed coc to mako ?
<Burglaptop> bhuvan, sign it in lp
<bhuvan> it's done..
<Madpilot> you can actually sign the CoC before becoming a full member - I've done that
<bhuvan> ok
<Burglaptop> Madpilot, you actually managed to get to CC meeting yet?
<Madpilot> nope
<Madpilot> next one is at 0600 local, Tuesday 6th Dec. I might try and make that one, just to observe
<Burglaptop> you have done enough to be put up for membership
<Madpilot> if you think so
<Burglaptop> put up a wiki page with what you have done
<Madpilot> Burglaptop: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Madpilot
<Burglaptop> helping on #ubuntu plus your work on the wiki is enough
<Burglaptop> I had a great deal when I went, but I just hadn't gotten around to it
<Madpilot> too bad - the next DocTeam meeting is happening while I'm at work next Friday
<Madpilot> sometimes -8 UTC bites...
<LaserJock> man I can understand that ;-)
<Burglaptop> I am at work but I have full irc access and sit at a desk all day
<Madpilot> Burglaptop: and the boss doesn't mind you having an IRC meeting during working hours?
<Burglaptop> the boss doesn't know
<Madpilot> heh
<LaserJock> dang I was thinking it was at 0800
<Madpilot> LaserJock: you PST as well?
<LaserJock> Madpilot: yeah, I'm in Reno, NV
<LaserJock> I was thinking of going for membership too
<Madpilot> ... and the other common meeting time is 06-freakin'-00 hrs local. Bleh.
<Madpilot> Burglaptop: if you go up a level, you see http://www.returnofdesign.com/colors/
<Burglaptop> sitevista isn't bad either
<Burglaptop> http://www.returnofdesign.com/showcolors.php?scheme=44
<Madpilot> yeah
<Madpilot> Burglaptop: register that nick, ffs, so we can stop spamming -doc :)
<Burglaptop> whatever
<Madpilot> anyway, yes, that's a pretty good colour scheme too.
<Burglaptop> I think I like it better, more gold, less yellowy
<Burglaptop> I now run the internal mediawiki install, and there are some cool options for making it look different
<Madpilot> Burglaptop: you've installed a LAMP stack, then?
<Burglaptop> the install was already done
<Burglaptop> I am just playing with the install
<Madpilot> by "internal mediawiki isntall" do you mean at work?
<Burglaptop> yep
<Madpilot> OK, got you
<Burglaptop> http://sugar.userful.ca:8080/wiki/
<Burglaptop> can't see anything, but there it is
<Burglaptop> anyway, good night
<Burglaptop> C is calling me to bed
<Madpilot> later
<mdke> morning
<Madpilot> hi
<highvoltage> morning
<Madpilot> I was looking at the wiki - the wireless modem section is a mess - as is the dailup modem section - and I don't use either. Anyone feel like tackling them and making sense of those pages?
<mdke> not me, at the moment
<Madpilot> heh
<Madpilot> I'll fire an email off to the list at some point
<mdke> good idea
<Madpilot> how much stuff is there in the actual help files about wireless & dailup?
<mdke> not a lot i think
<mdke> there is a document in our repo about dialup
<mdke> but we never published it
<robotgeek> hi, the ubuntuguide is linked to from ubuntulinux.org?
<mdke> robotgeek, where abouts?
<robotgeek> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/support/documentation/link/ububtuguide
<robotgeek> :)
<mdke> thanks robotgeek nice spot
<mdke> actually, i don't see it
<robotgeek> mdke: really? 
<mdke> oh it has a crazy typo
<mdke> i thought that was your typo :)
<robotgeek> lemme find the page which lead to this one, lol
<mdke> robotgeek, the website is being migrating shortly, we'll sort that out as it does
<mdke> robotgeek, i see it
<robotgeek> mdke: kk, just thought i'll let you know. with us in #ubuntu not recommending ubuntuguide and all, this would be bad :)
<mdke> the documentation section is really out of date
<robotgeek> mdke: well, i guess it would be sorted soon. sorry for the PM
<mdke> no, you were right to point it out, thanks
<robotgeek> alrite, later
<jsgotangco> hi
<mdke> lo
<jsgotangco> sup?
<mdke> not a lot, just replied to your mail
<jsgotangco> heh
<bhuvan> any update about my svn access ?
<mdke> bhuvan, no, it generally takes a while. I will pester them
<jsgotangco> we can try looking at tea leaves...
* jsgotangco hides
<mdke> bhuvan, i think we should try and avoid using too many stylesheets and css
<mdke> bhuvan, afaics we can combine aboutubuntu with quicktour, and desktopguide with serverguide, thoughts?
<bhuvan> aboutubuntu and quicktour .. sure. provided, we can change the file names accordingly
* jsgotangco still likes yelp rendering
<mdke> jsgotangco, my suggestion doesn't involve moving away from yelp, it involves using yelp
<mdke> bhuvan, yes
* jsgotangco still likes xml in yelp
<mdke> heh
<mdke> why?
<mdke> it is so slow!
<jsgotangco> i prefer a consistent look and feel
<mdke> ah
<jsgotangco> and yelp has its own stylesheet voodoo
<mdke> well our html docs should be consistent too
<jsgotangco> it won't be the same unless you explicityly use yelp's stylesheets
<mdke> jsgotangco, try building the server/desktop guides and viewing the html in yelp, it is pretty good
<mdke> and most importantly
<mdke> a million times faster
<jsgotangco> i've seen it a few minutes ago
<jsgotangco> it just doesn't look the same as i expect it to be
<mdke> jsgotangco, feel free to work on the css/xsl
<mdke> i don't see the problem though, if our docs are consistent stylesheet-wise
<mdke> we can even include an Ubuntu header bar
<bhuvan> mdke, i guess, we've not used css for server guide yet
<mdke> bhuvan, sure we do
<mdke> matt@kalliope:~/ubuntu/ubuntu-doc/trunk/build/ubuntu/serverguide$ ls
<mdke> C  default.css
<mdke> 	# copy style sheet to build directory
<mdke> 	cp default.css ../build/ubuntu/serverguide/default.css
<mdke> jsgotangco, oh well, something to think about
<mdke> i'm off
<highvoltage> is that what i smelled :)
<highvoltage> cheers, mdke 
<jsgotangco> hopefully the yelp patches get included in the next gnome
<mdke> highvoltage, haha
<bhuvan> mdke, i afraid, there's no make target for serverguide in generic/Makefile
* jsgotangco fires up guild wars
<mdke> bhuvan, no. There is no point because we don't ship a generic-docs. It's in ubuntu/Makefile, and will be in kubuntu/Makefile too
<bhuvan> mdke, ok
<mdke> i've included it in the package that will go out asap
<bhuvan> mdke, i guess server guide stylesheet needs to be corrected..
<bhuvan> we do cp default.css in the Makefile, but we really dont use it in appropriate stylesheets..
<mdke> good point
<mdke> if we unify the stylesheets, we will use the same css for both
<mdke> anyway, gtg cya later
<bhuvan> mdke, ok
<Belutz> jsgotangco, you there?
<jsgotangco> hi
<jsgotangco> Belutz: hiya i was just playing a game
<Belutz> jsgotangco, what game? the one you develop?
<Belutz> :D
<jsgotangco> Belutz: nope..guild wars heh
<jsgotangco> Belutz: what's up?
<Belutz> jsgotangco, i guess, me and my friend will do the presentation at the debconf
<jsgotangco> that's good news
<Belutz> :)
<Belutz> hmm, you are working on edubuntu cookbook?
<jsgotangco> i do
<jsgotangco> well it has been sidelined at the moment
<Belutz> i'll be waiting for it :)
<Belutz> hmm, i just have a meeting with 3 people, we are going to make the locoteams for indonesia. one of them is focusing on edubuntu
<robotgeek> hi, is anyone here
<robotgeek> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RootSudo says that it breaks gui admin tools. i bit the bullet, and enabled the root user. 
<robotgeek> the gui admin tools i tried did not break. 
<jsgotangco> Belutz: that's good news
<Belutz> jsgotangco, yes it is :)
<robotgeek> side effect -> creates 2 users with root privileges, one is root (who cannot use the gui admin tools), and the other is a normal user who can still everything 
<jsgotangco> someone from jakarta messaged me yesterday
<robotgeek> Belutz: hi, long time no see
<Belutz> jsgotangco, yup, he's the one i met just now
<Belutz> robotgeek, hi robotgeek :)
<Belutz> robotgeek, tha't because i'm sick :(
<robotgeek> anyways, i did all of that just to find out if it breaks the gui admin tools.
<robotgeek> Belutz: that's sad, what happened
<Belutz> robotgeek, flu, and my waist hurts, i haven't got time to go to the doctor :(
* robotgeek wanted to find out if disabling root user will restore gui-admin tool breakage
<robotgeek> Belutz: no time...that's a rather poor excuse
<Belutz> robotgeek, yes it is :-)
<Belutz> robotgeek, maybe tommorow i'll go, if i'm healthy i could contribute a lot more translations in launchpad :p
<robotgeek> hehe...always on the job, huh
<Belutz> jsgotangco, if the edubuntu cookbook is ready, please let me know, we will translate it into Indonesian :)
<Belutz> robotgeek, well, i always gives to the one i love :p
<jsgotangco> oh probably a month before dapper get's released
<jsgotangco> but its going to be a huge book
<Belutz> jsgotangco, it's ok :-)
<Belutz> it's my dream to have edubuntu installed in indonesian school
<jsgotangco> brb
<Hieronymus> hello
<Hieronymus> http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/about-ubuntu/C/index.html
<Hieronymus> header "The Open Source Philosophy" talks about GNU's philosophy, which is "The Free Software Philosophy"
<Hieronymus> also, "You can find more about this philosophy here.": 'here' links to a 404
<Hieronymus> http://www.gnu.org/philsophy/ -> http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/
<Hieronymus> http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/about-ubuntu/C/index.html
<Hieronymus> It's not valid HTML either
<LaserJock> interesting
<Hieronymus> LaserJock: and the CSS gives warnings (though that's not really a problem, since they're just that - warnings)
<LaserJock> Burglaptop: you here?
<Hieronymus> also, I should note that the HTML error is also in the current dapper and (IIRC) breezy version
<Hieronymus> I could/would fix the HTML, but I think it comes from a DocBook source. Right?
<LaserJock> Hieronymus: right, but unfortunately I don't have commit access to the svn repo so I can't make the changes myself.
<LaserJock> ok, I found the bad gnu philosophy link
<Hieronymus> good
<Hieronymus> Where can I download the DocBook source? (Just interested, dont think I can fix it..)
<LaserJock> the svn docteam repo. check out https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamGettingStarted and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamStepByStepRepository
<Hieronymus> <imagedata fileref="../../images/&language;/ubuntuheader.png" format="PNG"/>
<Hieronymus> would adding alt="Ubuntu" be enough?
<LaserJock> Hieronymus: I don't know, probably. I think the best thing for you do is email the ubuntu-doc mailing list. Nobody seems to be awake around here right now ;-)
<Hieronymus> do I need to subscribe?
<Burglaptop> Hieronymus, yes you do need to subscribe
<Hieronymus> awww.. will one of you post it for me?
<LaserJock> Burglaptop: ah, wonderful. your here
<Burglaptop> Hieronymus, send it corey.burger@gmail.com
* Burglaptop stirs sh*t on p.u.c
<Hieronymus> Burglaptop: okay, sent it
<Hieronymus> Burglaptop: are you Corey Burger from amsn?
<Burglaptop> hmm
<Burglaptop> not likely but maybe
<Burglaptop> Hieronymus, sent to the list
<Burglaptop> but I would simply join
<Burglaptop> the volume is maybe two or three a day
#ubuntu-doc 2005-12-02
<LaserJock> hi jsgotangco, mdke
<jsgotangco> hey LaserJock, Burgundavia
<Burgundavia> salut jsgotangco 
<LaserJock> lol, where did Burglaptop go?
<LaserJock> I can't keep track of you and all your incarnations
<Burgundavia> I am now at home
<Burgundavia> Burglaptop is only when I am my GF's place
<Burgundavia> or otherwise on my laptop
<LaserJock> ah, ok
<jsgotangco> why do you keep an instance at work
<jsgotangco> heh
<Burgundavia> because I forgot to logout at work
* jsgotangco catching up on blog entries at bloglines
<Burgundavia> I want to revive an idea I had at Mataro
<Burgundavia> embedded SVG in docbook for explaining screenshots
* rob1 looks in from his kubuntu desktop
* rob1 has spent half an hour configuring kde and still doesn't like it
<Burgundavia> rob1, I gave up a long time ago trying to like Kubuntu/KDE
<rob1> the default font is ugly, and huge!
<jsgotangco> you're not supposed to configure your desktop if you're going to document it
<jsgotangco> heh
<jsgotangco> :O
<rob1> but it so u g l y . . .
<uglyrob1> hmm kvirc
<jsgotangco> well that's your opinion :)
<uglyrob1> the fonts were massive, things wern't fitting on the screen
<uglyrob1> my screen is 19" too
<jsgotangco> wow
<jsgotangco> a borked resolution?
<uglyrob1> 1600x1200
* jsgotangco uses kubuntu on 1024x768 and it looks pretty good
* Burgundavia onders what do to with https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SynapticsTouchpadHowto
<j> hmm
<Burgundavia> holy crap
<Burgundavia> bootup is much much faster
* j wonders why kvirc want to use its own fonts..
<Madpilot> Burgundavia: that's an... interesting... page you linked to there...
<Burgundavia> indeed
<Burgundavia> the wiki one?
<LaserJock> wow, that is something
<Burgundavia> why does shaw refuse to give my laptop an ip?
<Madpilot> I vaugely remember fiddling with it, months ago - all the profanity and stupid crap has appeared since then...
<Burgundavia> I didn't think they did mac address silliness like Telus
* Burgundavia realizes why Apple does do docking stations
<Burgundavia> s/does/doesn't
<rob1> grr kde has taken over my gnome desktop..
<LaserJock> rob1: how so?
<rob1> fonts, some colours
<rob1> the menus look like the kde menu
<rob1> grr how stupid
<rob1> I'll apt-get gnome and see what happens..
<Madpilot> Burgundavia: ping
<Burgundavia> Madpilot, pong
<Madpilot> Burgundavia: what time are you planning on coming up here tomorrow?
<Burgundavia> Madpilot, what time would be good for you?
<Madpilot> whenever - say 11 or 11:30?
<Burgundavia> 11 sounds good
<Madpilot> OK, see you then
<melodie> bonjour tout le monde, hello  :)
<melodie> I'd need an information about the bugreport websites
<melodie> what about Bugzilla and Lounchpad ? does the second one stand in place of the first for the official Ubuntu release, now ?
<melodie> nobody on the chan or no one knows the answer ? :)
<jsgotangco> we're slowly moving to launchpad
<melodie> ah ? so the bugs on the bugzilla can be read, and not written or ? per exemple I look for a particular bug on Grub... what should I do ? (Breezy)
<jsgotangco> i believe the open ones are still available
<jsgotangco> i haven't really chedk yet
<melodie> well too bad  :)
<melodie> in fact I liked the bugzilla interface look better
<melodie> the Lounchpad looks too full :)
<melodie> thks and bye
<mdke> evening
#ubuntu-doc 2005-12-03
<Burgundavia> bhuvan, nice work btw
<bhuvan> Burgundavia, ok. hope you meant my recent stylesheet patch!
<Burgundavia> bhuvan, that, but all the work you have done
<Madpilot> the unified css is something that's been discussed bofore - nice to see someone actually just do it!
<Burgundavia> Madpilot, I port forwarding worked
<Burgundavia> s/I/the
<Madpilot> Burgundavia: excellent
<bhuvan> a novice question..
<bhuvan> how do we set irc info to something like rob@ubuntu/member/rob1 ?
<bhuvan> i'm using irssi
<robitaille> bhuvan,  you have to ask; it's only for official members.  http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2005-October/012647.html
<robitaille> it's an IRC hostname cloaks.
<bhuvan> robitaille, thankx
<os2mac> anyone around?
<Madpilot> sort of
<os2mac> I am trying to get some help with the wiki....
<Madpilot> sure - what's up
<os2mac> this is the closest place I could find...
<Madpilot> ?
<os2mac> I am trying to change my user prefs and the site is not allowing me to save them... saying that my passwd doesn't match... yet it's the same passwd I logged in with.
<os2mac> the login name matches what I logged in with but the first letter is capped.... but that may be a display not a data thing...
<Madpilot> os2mac: I've never had a problem with the user prefs, sorry. Try again in a while, and if you still can't get in, ask again here - someone else might be able to help you
<os2mac> ok thanks.
<rob1> umm, what the heck is this? http://doc.gwos.org/index.php/Main_Page
<Madpilot> it's the other wiki, by people too cool to join the DocTeam
<Madpilot> or something like that
<Madpilot> running a messily-reskinned MediaWiki, from the look of it
<rob1> yeah
<rob1> their server hasn't got mod-rewrite by the looks either
<Madpilot> unless they've changed something, that whole site goes down for a few hours a day, so they can use the bandwidth to play Quake 4 or something on...
* rob1 wonders what the point of it is then
<Madpilot> not sure
<Madpilot> perhaps after I have another beer I'll see the point...
<Madpilot> the Recent Changes there seems to be mostly gaming-related stuff...
<rob1> heh
<rob1> does anyone (looking at mdke) know if the gfdl and cc-by-sa are compatible? can we take docs licenced under the gfdl (say from tldp.org) and use parts of them in our docs?
<manicka> what do you need to know about http://doc.gwos.org/index.php/Main_Page
<rob1> manicka, how come they don't spend their time and efforts towards improving the official wiki?
<Madpilot> I think we were wondering why it exists at all, give that wiki.u.c exists already...
<manicka> hmmmm, there was some disagreement when some forum members first started doing that
<manicka> I don't know the full story
<manicka> the new wiki was up and running before it was resolved
<rob1> I tend to keep out of wiki-related business, so I only just stumbled upon that site
<Madpilot> manicka: some forum members came in an re-wrote large sections of important parts of wiki.u.c, without talking to anyone or consulting...
<Madpilot> *and rewrote, that should have been...
<manicka> like i say, i don't know the full story
<manicka> I just contribute to the new wiki because it's more relevant to the forums
<manicka> It's not just a gamers site
<manicka> have a good look around
<rob1> there is a wiki team you could all be apart of, and thus vote on changes to be made to the official wiki
<manicka> I've talked to mdke about that
<Madpilot> if there are problems with the relevancy of wiki.u.c, fixing it sounds like a better idea than starting something different...
<manicka> I can see that point 
<manicka> but the forum wiki is a bit more than just a user doc site
<rob1> I would like to see you all work together, I can tell by that site you have some good ideas to bring 
<manicka> I'd like to contribute
<manicka> but to be honest
<rob1> nothing stopping you having your own gaming wiki on the site ;)
<rob1> s/site/side
<manicka> i didn't know where to start on the userdocs section
<manicka> it needs lots of work
<rob1> yeah it needs some work
<Madpilot> UserDocs is a big page - it's always going to be a big page - but I think it's getting more usable
<Madpilot> but away from UserDocumentation, there's lots of easier places to start working...
<manicka> hmmm, i haven't looked at it for a while
<manicka> I'll take you word for it
<Madpilot> http://doc.gwos.org/index.php/Dominions_2_Review <-- this looks pretty cool, actually. I might have to look it up
<manicka> the gaming section is very good
<manicka> I don't have anything to do with it
<manicka> ;)
<manicka> My focus is the userdocs sections
<manicka> I find the mediawiki code much easier to use
<Madpilot> basically, that's the entire wiki, isn't it? (except for the dev specs and such...)
<manicka> than the main wiki
<rob1> the best way to get major changes done is to do a spec page on the ubuntu wiki (a page detailing what you would like) and bring it up duing a docteam meeting
<rob1> s/duing/during
<manicka> hmmm, food for thought
<rob1> thats the basic process
<Madpilot> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamMeetingAgenda
<manicka> Madpilot: you also mentioned that the site goes down for a few hours each day
<manicka> that generally doesn't happen any more
<Madpilot> OK - old info - but "generally doesn't happen" isn't the same as "our information is always available to people who need it"...
<rob1> ubuntu does have the money however to insure that
<manicka> you mentioned a wiki team -  which one would that be
<rob1> ubuntu has a wiki team which is a sub-team of the doc team
<Madpilot> basically, DocTeam = WikiTeam, more or less
<rob1> instead of working on xml documents, they just focus on the wiki
<Madpilot> ... because XML makes my brain hurt... :P
<manicka> so what process would one go through to join that team
<manicka> ouch
<rob1> just start working on the wiki, doing minor maintainance, adding docs etc
<Madpilot> join the mailing list
<rob1> yes, and also come to a docteam meeting every once in a while
<manicka> hmmm, I'll give it some thought
<manicka> I'm comfortable where I am at the moment
<rob1> sure, no rush
<manicka> don't need lots of hassles
<manicka> over loyalties etc
<rob1> yeah, maybe you guys as a whole might look at combining your efforts one day when you are ready
<manicka> it would be a lot of work
<rob1> I think the wiki would rock if that happen
<manicka> the new wiki is growing rapidly
<manicka> and getting lots of hits each day
<rob1> there will be much overlap
<Madpilot> manicka: mailing list info here, if you just want to join and lurk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam
<rob1> however taking the best bits of both and combining it would be the ultimate aim
<manicka> I've lurked there before ;)
<manicka> combining would be the biggest headache
<manicka> with the different wiki formats
<Madpilot> yeah
<rob1> I think the debian wiki and the unofficial debian wiki just went through something like that recently
<Madpilot> I've done Wikipedia stuff; MediaWiki is just different enough from MoinMoin to make it really annoying in both ;)
<manicka> yes, just different enough
<rob1> unless you want to do something tricky moinmoin is pretty simple
<rob1> even then..
<manicka> agreed, that not the problem
<manicka> it's the conversion that would be the hassle
<manicka> a question
<Madpilot> wonder if there's a media2moin app out there?
<manicka> If i wanted to add something to the moin wiki
<rob1> yes
<rob1> http://moinmoin.wikiwikiweb.de/MediaWikiConverter
<manicka> that was authored by someone else on the forum
<manicka> what is the expectation on the main wiki
<manicka> when that situation arises
<rob1> well the docteam would have to decide how to proceed duing a meeting
<rob1> a spec page would help detailing what should be done and how to do it
<Madpilot> I've converted a couple of forum howtos into wiki.u.c pages - I just asked in the forum, got the OK, and then posted the link back into the forum thread
<Madpilot> the OperaBrowser page started that way, and it's become much better than I could have made it on my own
<manicka> I would suggest that it needs to be discussed
<rob1> manicka, exactly
<manicka> at the moment adding threads to the other wiki is easy
<manicka> we just have a kist of threads to convert and do it
<Madpilot> a kist? huh?
<Madpilot> list?
<manicka> with proper acknowledgment of the original author
<manicka> list?
<Madpilot> if you've got the OK of the original author, it would be just as easy to add the page to w.u.c...
<manicka> I usually notify the author through the forum thread as well
<rob1> whist it was the subject of much debate, the ubuntu wiki uses gfdl/ccbysa like all our docs
<rob1> of cause, unless the other wiki does too then the originial authors will need to be contacted, depending on the licence on the other wiki
<rob1> hmm.. I sat down with the intent on doing some work on the ubuntu desktop guide, but the pancakes will be ready shortly..
<manicka> enjoy!
<manicka> bbl
<rob1> bye
<Madpilot> later
<mdke> rob1, from memory, I don't believe you can copy material licensed under gdfl and relicense it under our join licence system, unless you get their permission, but I might be wrong
* bhuvan help
<ssam> hello. i do a fair amount of helping out on the forums and have been think a frequently encountered problems page would be useful to point new users at.
<ssam> i though i'd better have a look around to avoid duplicating and found https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommonProblemsGuideSpec
<ssam> could i have a go at doing this? it seems that it is wanted in docbook rather than wiki, which i have not done before, but i could learn
<jjesse> ssam: i don't know where Burgundavia is currently at this, but it could be started in the wiki, and then moved to docbook if you aren't comfortable w/ Docbook yet
<ssam> if docbook is the prefered format then i'll give it a go.
<ssam> i am happy at writing css formated html, so i imagine its not too different
<jjesse> ssam: ok, might wnat to contact Burgundavia to see where he is on this, don't know if there has been much work done
<ssam> ok, thank you
<Burgwork> ssam, you still there?
<mdke> that common problems thing is kinda dealt with in the Desktop Guide, or at least, should be dealt with
<Burgwork> yep
<Burgwork> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-docs/+bug/5099
<Burgwork> baffled ^
<mdke> that is one hell of a bug report
<ssam> burgwork, hello
<mdke> ssam, I think that he was going to say that the material in that spec should be incorporated within the Desktop Guide
<ssam> looks like the DISPLAY variable is not set in that bug report
<ssam> mdke, ok, i feel that its the lay out thats the important bit. that if you have a specific problem and dont know the terminology then you can find an answer
<ssam> mdke, i dont mind where it is
<mdke> ssam, yeah I agree. in fact the desktopguide has some structural/organisational problems right now IMHO
<ssam> mdke,yes, a quick look in the forum or #ubuntu will tell you that people aren't find how to fix common problems,
<mdke> ssam, well, that is not only due to problems with documentation, it is also due to problems with people
<mdke> lots of people don't like reading docs, even for a few minutes
<mdke> but yes, I agree that more should be done to make it easy
<ssam> mdke, true
<mdke> ssam, sometimes the human touch is nice :)
<ssam> thats why your on the docteam :-)
<mdke> heh
<ssam> also in some circumstances people may not be able to get to the forum/irc if for example their network connection is broken. if there are good troubleshooting docs on the computer that could save them
<mdke> absolutely
<jjesse> its the same problem on #kubuntu that you are seeing on #ubuntu
<jjesse> people ask the same questions, but don't bother to search
<LaserJock> I finally heard back from Unfgiven (the original packaging guide guy)
<LaserJock> He has his own svn repo for it and says he would rather us OpenOffice but I am trying to get him to use the docteam repo instead
<jjesse> OpenOffice doesn't do docbook well does it?
<LaserJock> that's my problem, you can export to .xml but I spent quite some time cleaning it up already
<LaserJock> I certainly don't want to have to do that every time he add's something
<mdke> LaserJock, definitely try and convince him :)
<LaserJock> mdke: I think I will, his biggest complaint was that he couldn't get Docbook to look nice in .pdf
<mdke> really?
<LaserJock> He doesn't know docbook and he has styles set up for OpenOffice.
<LaserJock> I said that the advantage to using the doc-team repo is that we have access to the style work that the doc-team has already done
<mdke> plus we can serve it on the documentation website and include it in the distribution
<LaserJock> mdke: another point I brought up ;-)
<LaserJock> I think he will be ok with it, I think he just had some concerns since he was new to docbook
<LaserJock> I am too so I think it should be ok. If I can do it, anybody can ;-)
<mdke> yeah, understandable, but now that you've done the hard work, it should be quite easy for him
<LaserJock> mdke: btw, are you going to be at the next CC meeting?
<Burgwork> LaserJock, the motu people want the packaging guide in our repos
<mdke> LaserJock, sure, if you want
<Burgwork> LaserJock, do you need  someone to champion you at the CC meeting?
<mdke> i'm happy to do that
<mdke> your work has been excellent
<LaserJock> yes, I am trying to drum up support
<LaserJock> I got at least crimsun from the MOTU to vouch for me but I would like to get a doc-team person as well
<Burgwork> hmm, it starts at 6am my time
<mdke> what time is it?
<mdke> (utc)
<LaserJock> Burgwork: me too
<LaserJock> 14:00
<mdke> ah shit
<mdke> i most likely won't be there, but I'll do what I usually do and leave a report with Kamion or something
<mdke> brb
<LaserJock> I probably could do the next CC meeting if it is hard for people to make but I would like to get svn commit access to work on the packaging guide
<mdke> yeah, do it asap
<jjesse> you just have to be a member right?
<jjesse> i can help vouch for you LaserJock
<LaserJock> jjesse: thanks
<LaserJock> I think that I will be ok, I have been trying to keep up on my wiki page but I just wanted some people there. I think that that is the most important thing
<ssam> Burgwork, did you get my email regarding CommonProblemsGuideSpec
<Burgwork> ssam, yes. I am currently at work and thus am going to have to respond to it later
<ssam> Burgwork, ok, thanks
<mdke> ssam, you can join the mailing list too!
<ssam> i am joined (though i dont read it that much)
<mdke> ah :D
<LaserJock> so is plan that everything in the svn repo is going to be packaged and distributed in dapper?
<LaserJock> or will some be only online?
<mdke> LaserJock, whatever we decide
<mdke> brb
<thoreauputic> jjesse: heh I saw your post on wftl-lug :) 
<jjesse> thoreauputic: grin didn't mean to call you out on it :)
<thoreauputic> heheh
<thoreauputic> well I'm not really technical and docbook etc kind of scares me to be honest - so I answer Qs in #ubuntu and #kubuntu
<jjesse> Docbook isn't that scary i jng ust focus on trying to write the docs and let others play w/ stylesheets and stuff
<thoreauputic> i wrote to jgotangco about this months ago - I met him at Ubuntu Downunder :0
<thoreauputic> hmm wrong smily - s/:0/:)
<thoreauputic> *grin*
<jjesse> grin
<jjesse> we are working on re doing the faq guide and also putting one together for kubuntu
<jjesse> so that will hopefully help out, but i agree w/ you its hard to force people to read the docs
<thoreauputic> so i gathered, yes
<LaserJock> mdke: are you sure you want to keep the version the same in your latest changes to debian/changelog?
<thoreauputic> jjesse:  so instead of RTFM we give them !repos and !synaptic and so on - I guess that's a bit friendlier - oh and of course !docs (but that points at the wiki)
<LaserJock> is there a dialog box or anything that comes up when Ubuntu is first installed that says "Here are the docs:"?
<thoreauputic> LaserJock: not that I remember
<thoreauputic> it would be a good idea IMO
<jjesse> not tthat i know of, but maybe the start page of firefox should have something better?
<jjesse> i know at one time they talked about start.ubuntu.com being default home page and it wouldn't be static like about ubuntu is
<thoreauputic> like a big red button that says "click here before you panic"
<jjesse> an "easy" button :)
<LaserJock> lol
<LaserJock> at least something that says if you go to System->Help you really can find help
<LaserJock> Ubuntu is the first time I have actually seen that have anything useful
<thoreauputic> LaserJock: assuming you read the wisdom therein... but as they say, "when all else fails, read the instructions"
<LaserJock> I know, I usually have just skipped past the firefox start pages and stuff like that because I know it doesn't have anything releven to me. I think Ubuntu is getting to the point where it is useful
<thoreauputic> agreed, but people's habit is to ignore the start page , thinking it will just be marketing I guess
<LaserJock> right
<LaserJock> that is why something more like " Remember, when you need help go to System->Help"
<LaserJock> is more useful
<thoreauputic> a flashing neon sign might work ( joking)
<LaserJock> thoreauputic: not a bad idea ;-)
<LaserJock> I think it has to be something other than a firefox start page
<thoreauputic> too much like windows (Are you sure you want to do <insert trivial operation> ? it might break your system!
<mdke> LaserJock, no I'm not sure. I need to do a couple of fixes still before we upload anyhow, so I'll bump it
<LaserJock> we should just give them a blue screen of death, they should be used to that ;-)
<thoreauputic> striking a balance between assuming an IQ below room temperature and getting attention is a difficult thing to achieve ;)
<mdke> a link in the firefox bookmarks to the Support section of the Ubuntu website?
<mdke> (and making that section useful)
<thoreauputic> mdke: not a bad idea 
<thoreauputic> on the bookmarks panel ?
<mdke> could do
<mdke> it is already there in the bookmarks
<LaserJock> I think it is better to do it outside of a browser. I use a browser to go where I want to. Not search through bookmarks to see if anything is useful
<mdke> although the "making that section useful" hasn't been done yet
<thoreauputic> with an icon saying " 42 - Don't Panic! "
<mdke> LaserJock, yeah, but I dunno what more we can do. We have a help icon on the panel, and System->Help is not a lot of clicks really
* mdke goes off to fix the packaging
<LaserJock> but we can't throw up some kinda dialog box that says "Help actually helps, really" ?
<thoreauputic> LaserJock: "This system will spontaneously shut down in 10 seconds if you don't read the Help "
<thoreauputic> *g*
<thoreauputic> sorry I'll stop now ... 
<thoreauputic> ;)
<LaserJock> well, I think that as long as we are consistent about saying " Try System->Help or help.ubuntu.com" instead of "WTFM and google it dumbo" I think that is about all we can do really
<mdke> +1
<LaserJock> s/WTFM/RTFM/
<Madpilot> WTFM = Write The Fine Manuals - that's what we're all here for, yes? :P
* mdke nods slowly
<mdke> LaserJock, so shall we upload the packaging guide too?
<LaserJock> Madpilot: that is what I was thinking 
<LaserJock> mdke: in the package? I'm not sure.
<mdke> LaserJock, your call
<mdke> we can leave it til later if you like
<Madpilot> got to go to work - bleh - later, all
<LaserJock> mdke: yeah maybe that is better. I guess I wouldn't hurt since you can get the debian packaging resources by .deb too
<LaserJock> It just seems weird to me to package something like that
<mdke> you are probably right
<mdke> anyhow, just let me know if you want to
<LaserJock> actually, maybe I will ask the MOTU guys and see what they think
<mdke> sure thing
<LaserJock> mdke: Lets go ahead and package it too. It was on its way to becoming a universe package anyway before you put it in the repo
<mdke> ok then
<mdke> LaserJock, would you like to write me a quick couple of line description of the document?
<LaserJock> mdke: hmm, I guess. Give me a minute.
* mdke recovers from his heart attack
* mdke slaps thoreauputic 
<thoreauputic> haha
<thoreauputic> I just declared ducks non-free in #ubuntu-offtopic ;)
<LaserJock> mdke: How's this?
<LaserJock> The Ubuntu Packaging Guide is an introduction to packaging programs for Ubuntu and other Debian based distributions. It is primarily designed for people with little or no packaging experience who would like to contribute to Ubuntu or distribute their packages. Topics include: tools required before packaging, how to use a chroot or pbuilder environment, different packaging scenarios, and tips & tricks on how to be more efficient.
<LaserJock> Is that too long?
<Burgwork> LaserJock, a litte
<Burgwork> LaserJock, you need 3 things
<Burgwork> IHMO
<Burgwork> a title
<Burgwork> a one sentence description
<Burgwork> and then a longer desctiption
<LaserJock> right
<Burgwork> that is just my idea, ignore at your leisure
<LaserJock> well, when packaging that is what you need
<LaserJock> Burgwork: is it ok to take the first sentence for the short description or is that too redundant do you think?
<Burgwork> hmm
<Burgwork> nope, it works for me
<Burgwork> oh wait
<Burgwork> I mean that Yes, the first sentence works for the short desc.
<LaserJock> ok
#ubuntu-doc 2005-12-04
<mdke> LaserJock, got it, thanks
<LaserJock> mdke: ok cool
<mdke> i'm having a strange issue
<mdke> the "make server" target in the ubuntu folder isn't working
<mdke> the command just seems to stop
<mdke> but the command when run on its own, works fine
<mdke> oh no, it is just taking a long time
<mdke> phew
<LaserJock> mdke: really, that must be a long time. I thought the same thing
<mdke> weird
<mdke> any idea why it is so slow?
<mdke> it is superfast if you just run the command?
<mdke> s/?//
<mdke> i ran the build on our server and it got home ok, but on my laptop it just seems to stop for ages
<LaserJock> hmm, it does seem to start faster when I do it from the command line
<mdke> it's weird because I haven't actually changed anything that should make that happen
<LaserJock> I just timed it on my comp: ~ 3.5 s from command line, ~ 60 s from make server
<LaserJock> for it to get started
<mdke> weird
<LaserJock> I just asked about it in #ubuntu-motu too
<mdke> good thinking
<mdke> LaserJock, oh well, I've got a package built, now to do a couple of quick tests
<mdke> if you've got a working yelp in dapper: http://doc.ubuntu.com/debs/
<mdke> ah crap
* mdke looks around for the packaging guide
* mdke goes back to fix more bugs
<mdke> jeez i suck
<sistpoty> hi folks
<mdke> hi there
<mdke> thanks for coming
<mdke> here is the problem
<mdke> go to trunk/ubuntu/Makefile and see right at the bottom there is a "make server" target
<sistpoty> and it takes quite long... LaserJock already told me on #ubuntu-motu
<LaserJock> mdke: btw, the link to the html for the server guide is wrong
<mdke> ah yeah
<mdke> LaserJock, yeah, fixed :)
<mdke> LaserJock, what is your email, and the other author of the packagingguide too?
<mdke> sistpoty, the command is real fast in the command line, but takes ages from the make target :(
<LaserJock> mdke: its in the .xml file
<mdke> ok
<LaserJock> mdke: mine is mantha AT chem.unr.edu
<sistpoty> mdke: I'm already taking a look ;)
<mdke> sistpoty, awesome thanks
<sistpoty> mdke: np... thank me only if i can fix it ;)
<LaserJock> mdke: I can't rember Ankur's
<mdke> got it
<mdke> LaserJock, new debs up
<mdke> s/debs/deb
<LaserJock> mdke: k
<LaserJock> same version number?
<mdke> sure
<mdke> i only fixed a couple of tiny things
<mdke> didn't even put them in the changelog
<LaserJock> mdke: just wanted to make sure they were there
<mdke> :)
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> i need to read your packaging guide... :)
<LaserJock> mdke: Honestly, I haven't changed any content from what Unfrgiven did. I actually think it could quite a bit of work still.
<mdke> cool
<mdke> most of the docs do :)
<sistpoty> mdke, LaserJock: it's taking exactly the same time on shell as by makefile (~16 secs on my system)
<mdke> sistpoty, interesting
<LaserJock> hmm, that's strange
<sistpoty> what shell did you use?
<LaserJock> /bin/bash
<LaserJock> would it make that much difference?
<mdke> me too
<sistpoty> no, it wouldn't... i also used /bin/bash to test
<sistpoty> did you also do "rm -f ${SERVERBASE}C/*.html" at first?
<mdke> no...
<LaserJock> yes, at least once. maybe not all the times though
<sistpoty> I'm not quite sure what xsltproc does and if it (re)uses any already present files, so maybe that might be the cause
<mdke> no i've tried it on a clean build dir :(
* mdke tries again, same thing
<LaserJock> but maybe doing it on the shell is artifically fast?
<mdke> dunno, it wasn't this slow an hour ago, i've broken it!
<mdke> 16 seconds is outrageously fast compared to me
<mdke> oh well, at least it builds
<sistpoty> I did this within a shell script... I'll retry on the "real" shell
<LaserJock> I did "time make server" and I got 3m17s
<mdke> lol
<sistpoty> hm... still no real difference
<mdke> you're lucky
<mdke> weird
<sistpoty> seems like it... is your system running dapper or breezy (still breezy here)
<mdke> breezy
<sistpoty> really strange
<sistpoty> have you tried a clean checkout?
<mdke> no
<mdke> i'll do that now
<sistpoty> ok
* mdke thanks god for the immense bandwidth of the docteam server
<mdke> sistpoty, seems to be still happening with a clean checkout
<sistpoty> that's really strange, because it doesn't happen for me :(
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> no idea
<mdke> sistpoty, well thanks for your time. I'll post to the doc mailing list, hopefully someone will see the problem!
<sistpoty> ok... I'm just trying another make server... maybe this time it will take longer
<mdke> heh
<sistpoty> hm... it _does_ take longer 
<mdke> gah
<mdke> just rebooting to test the package one last time
<sistpoty> hm... it still uses same cpu-time... but total time is ~4 mins now... so it must be idle/waiting for s.th. within the makefile
* mdke has no idea what
<sistpoty> I'll investigate that a little more... but don't hesitate to ask others ;)
<mdke> thanks a lot dude :)
<sistpoty> np ;)
<mdke> LaserJock, the stupid packaging guide still isn't in the yelp menu
<mdke> oh i know why
* mdke slaps himself
<LaserJock> mdke: what happened
<mdke> i forgot to put the omf file in debian/install
<mdke> it's late... pity me
<LaserJock> ok, I just took the :server section of the makefile and made a bash script out of it and I get ~1m24s
<mdke> weird that things should be so slow
* mdke finally sees the packaging guide appear in yelp
<mdke> my life is complete
<LaserJock> mdke: is it in the .deb?
<mdke> LaserJock, it is now yeah
<mdke> just the xml
<mdke> i don't really like the font on the yelp frontpage, it is pretty ugle
<LaserJock> ok, I gotta go now. I will be back later
<mdke> bye
* mdke goes to sleep
<Madpilot> hi all
<mdke> bhuvan, around? thanks for your email to the list, sounds promising, but the patch means that the serverguide doesn't validate
* mdke goes to work
<bhuvan> mdke, ping
<dholbach> herllas
<dholbach> hellas :)
<dholbach> if you run  scrollkeeper-rebuilddb -q   (which is run once in a month), you get quite a lot of error messages from desktopguide/serverguide)
<dholbach> just as a headsup
<jsgotangco> hiya
<Madpilot> hi jsgotangco
<jsgotangco> hey Madpilot 
<jsgotangco> hey robitaille pretty busy eh?
<jsgotangco> =)
<robitaille> jsgotangco,  just playing around before going to bed :)
<robitaille> what do you think of these pages?
<jsgotangco> pretty neat, its really a chore to go through the logs
<jsgotangco> although someone has to update it everytime a log is added or will it just show the latest minutes?
<robitaille> exactly.  I was going to announce these pages on planet in a day or two, then hopefully others will add to these logs.  I miss 90% of the IRC meetings, and hate scanning the logs
<robitaille> it has to be done manually...
<robitaille> but added bonus:  things will show up from meeting when searching the wiki
<jsgotangco> why not just link to the html istead of copying/paste to wiki?
<robitaille> you still have the find the meeting in the long daily log.  Some meeting covers two log files.  Some days have multiple meetings
<jsgotangco> ah right
<robitaille> it's an experiment.  If it gets to be too much of chore, I guess it will not get updated
<mamoru> hello! is there a russian documentation on GTK+ somewhere?
<jjesse> mdke: when you get a chance can you edit the make file for kubuntu so i can build the switching guide?
<jjesse> mdke: no big hurry on it
<mdke> jjesse, sure. it might not build if it doesn't validate, but I'll give it a go tonight
<jsgotangco> hey
<mdke> ello
<mdke> dholbach, thanks for the heads up. I'll try and reproduce those errors
<dholbach> cool
<jsgotangco> eh?
<dholbach> <dholbach> if you run  scrollkeeper-rebuilddb -q   (which is run once in a month), you get quite a lot of error messages from desktopguide/serverguide)
<dholbach> 6 hours ago :)
<jsgotangco> ahhh
<jsgotangco> scrollkeeper love
<jsgotangco> wonder if the single remaining sk error is resolved
<mdke> dholbach, what sort of error messages are they? the files seem to work alright in yelp
<jsgotangco> dholbach: are you aware if we're still pursuing LSB or other standard certification?
<dholbach> jsgotangco: no idea
<jsgotangco> ok
<dholbach> /usr/share/ubuntu-docs/serverguide/C/windows-networking.xml:9: I/O warning : failed to load external entity "/usr/share/ubuntu/libs/gnome-menus-C.ent"
<dholbach> %gnome-menus-C;
<dholbach>                ^
<dholbach>  %gnome-menus-C;
<dholbach> //usr/share/ubuntu-docs/desktopguide/html/C/index.html:155: parser error : Premature end of data in tag link line 5
<dholbach> ^
<dholbach> and millions of those :)
<dholbach> i can give you a log
<mdke> no that's ok
<mdke> the first one is pretty obvious
<dholbach> might be just missing files
<mdke> the second one, dealing with the html, is just weird
* mdke reboots into dapper
<dholbach> http://ubuntu.gplan.info/docs/log
<mdke> i see em
<mdke> we can fix those I think
<dholbach> cool
<dholbach> :_D
<dholbach> :-D
<mdke> the problem is that the addresses to the entities in the documents are by relative path
<mdke> and they are quite inconvenient...
<mdke> https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/trunk/ubuntu/desktopguide/C/desktopguide.xml
<jsgotangco> mdke: it seems your boss isn't around that much lately :D
<mdke> that is a good example
<mdke> jsgotangco, i've been working relatively hard recently, just taking a break now :)
<mdke> most of the work i've done recently is in the evenings
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> i think the best solution is to install the docs in the distro in a similar structure to how they appear in the repository
<jsgotangco> so you're in the office?
<mdke> right now, yeah
<jsgotangco> ahhh
<mdke> dholbach, btw is it difficult to use 5 in debian/compat? apparently it would allow us to use comments and white lines in debian/install, which would be very cool in terms of clarifying what is going on in that file
<mdke> gah, yelp has broken now in my dapper
<mdke> The document /usr/share/gnome/help/gnome-doc-make/C/gnome-doc-make.xml could not be processed. The file /usr/share/yelp/xslt/db2html.xsl is either missing, or it is not a valid XSLT stylesheet.
<mdke> dholbach, ok a new package is up which fixes the xml errors, but not the html ones (no idea what the cause of those is)
<mdke> hey mpt 
<Seveas> hi there
<mdke> hiya
<Seveas> who was working on the install guide?
<mdke> Seveas, wiki.u.c/DocteamProjects
<mdke> but it has seen no action for ages
<Seveas> ah well, I added the author to the CC list of a bug :)
<mdke> Seveas, ah, our install guide isn't published...
<mdke> it's probably something for Kamion...
<jsgotangco> perhaps you mean the install guide in the distro>
<jsgotangco> yes
<dholbach> mdke: compat 5 is ok with me, if that makes life easier, i'll have a look at the new one later
<mdke> dholbach, if it is easy to implement, that would rock
<mdke> my yelp has broken now, even though I still haven't  upgraded firefox
<mdke> jjesse, done
<jjesse> mdke: thanks, i'll finish the validation problems and then test it
<mdke> jjesse, cool :)
<ned> hello :-)
<mdke> hi ned
<ned> I've just signed up to the mail list but have had no response back... any idea how long it takes?
<mdke> ned, not sure... the mailing lists are a bit slow recently
<mdke> ned, maybe wait for a bit and then try again
<ned> ahh i see - I have made some corrections to a doc - should I just wait until I get a response?
<mdke> ooh cool
<ned> :-)
<mdke> ned, you mailed the list and no one has answered? what is your name and when did you mail?
<ned> nedsent about half an hour ago - you mean my email address?
<mdke> oh
<mdke> i didn't get your mail, i suppose it just hasn't arrived yet
<mdke> last night my emails were lagged by about 3 hours...
<ned> hmmm let me check (its all a bit new at the mo) :-)
<mdke> ned, you had no problems signing up?
<ned> I have an account for the wiki
<mdke> you need to subscribe to the mailing list to send emails...
<mdke> http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-doc
<ned> yah thats what i tried - I filled in the details but nothing back yet
<mdke> ah
<mdke> it's probably just very slow
<mdke> sorry!
<ned> my email is working though
<mdke> which doc out of interest?
<ned> http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/desktopguide/C/ch01.html
<ned> it was a preview
<mdke> ned, yeah that server hosts the html generated from our current repository
<mdke> cool, well we'll look forward to your mail arriving!
<ned> I have just re-subscribed just in case :-)
<ned> thanks!
<mdke> ah i just got some mail from 20 minutes ago
<mdke> so it shouldn't be too bad
<ned> k
<mdke> WOOHO go jeff
<jjesse> that sure helps you out 
<mdke> you bet
<ned> mdke I have received 2 confirmations :-) I should be able to post a bit later on I guess - thanks for the help
<Burgwork> mdke, nice work with all the build stuff
<Burgwork> mdke, but the packaging guide has that draft image which appears to come from the wiki, because you get the cert warning dialog when you first load that page
<Burgwork> should I tempt fate and restore RideTheWildElmo one more time
<mdke> Burgwork, thanks will take a look
<Burgwork> mdke, np
<sistpoty> mdke: I did quite a crude hack to the makefile and it *is* as fast as on the shell now... should I send you a diff?
<mdke> sistpoty, one of the guys on the mailing list found the problem
<mdke> sistpoty, just this evening it got fixed
<sistpoty> ah :)
<mdke> sistpoty, i really appreciate your effort though!
<dholbach> hey sistpoty :)
<sistpoty> np mdke... I'll take a look at the list, as I still don't know the real reason for the problem *g*
<mdke> sistpoty, not sure I do either :)
<sistpoty> hehe
<mdke> Burgwork, hang on, you mean the packaging guide on the website?
<Burgwork> mdke, on doc.ubuntu.com
<mdke> ah
<mdke> got confused
<mdke> i can't remember how we built the packaging guide for the website
<Burgwork> ah
<mdke> ah i see it
<Burgwork> we need to standardize on simply css text for the "draft thing"
<Burgwork> the image is too busy and makes reading it hard
<mdke> ok
<mdke> the other ones are ok?
<Burgwork> yes, afaict
<mdke> ok easy then
<mdke> Burgwork, ok done
<Burgwork> mdke, cheers
<mdke> dholbach, by the way, if you want to upload, i think it is ready
<dholbach> i will look later
<dholbach> currently in TB meeting
<mdke> thanks
<mdke> oh yeah
<mdke> Burgwork, http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/packagingguide/C/
<Burgwork> excellent
#ubuntu-doc 2006-11-27
<robotgeek> trappist: still in the great state of TX?
<trappist> yep
<trappist> you headed back?
<robotgeek> nice. nope, i am going to be in AL
<robotgeek> place is not so good, job is great though :)
<trappist> a great job can sure make a big difference
<robotgeek> yup. that's the only reason i am not throwing a hissy fit!
<mdke> morning
<nixternal> morning
<Burgundavia> hey mdke
<Ubugtu> New bug: #72622 in ubuntu-doc "Traduction Documentation officielle" [Medium,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/72622
<tonyyarusso> jono: ..why don't you get a host mask?
<jono> tonyyarusso, why?
<tonyyarusso> jono: Just seems odd to see someone like you still stuck with the normal stuff and not a /member or something.
<jono> problem is, I am a member of a few things
<tonyyarusso> Ah.
<tonyyarusso> So it would have to be like /member/ubuntu/al'sbeerclub/firstbank/littletownchurch/pdpc/
<tonyyarusso> Maybe they should offer /overaffiliated/
<jenda> lol, tonyyarusso :)
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-doc.log
<LaserJock> mdke: around?
<LaserJock> mdke: are you going to cover/overview what docs we ship now?
#ubuntu-doc 2006-11-28
<shwag> regarding  https://help.ubuntu.com/6.10/ubuntu/serverguide/C/network-configuration.html
<shwag> shouldnt the example block starting with "iface eth1 inet static"   include the "auto eth1" line as the example above it does ?
<robotgeek> one sec
<robotgeek> yes, if you want it to come up at boot
<poolkey172> anyone home ?
<mdke> morning
<mdke> Laser_away: sure, I guess so. Go ahead and add it to the page
<Burgundavia> morning mdke
<Burgundavia> Mako has a good blog post, no?
<mdke> I need to read it
<mdke> nixternal: still breaking string freeze!!??
<mdke> Burgundavia: yes. I agree completely
<Burgundavia> robotgeek: why are you not on planet.ubuntu ?
<mdke> Burgundavia: do you know if there is anyone actually in favour of shipping binary drivers?
<mdke> all the developers I've seen comment are against it
<Burgundavia> Mark and the beryl people
<mdke> Mark?
<Burgundavia> sabdfl
<mdke> oh god
<Burgundavia> that was apparently how it broke down at UDS
<Burgundavia> nobody else would have the power to make it go on this long
<mdke> strange.
<mdke> he knows full well that if free software is to succeed, it has to do it on its own terms, not by giving up in certain areas
<Burgundavia> jono and I talked about it
<Burgundavia> he and Mark seemed to be concerned we need to do this to "achieve parity" with other OSes
<Burgundavia> basically, if it is not beautiful, they won't come
<mdke> Yeah, I know the argument
<mdke> That doesn't work, I don't think
<mdke> it runs up against the slippery slope problem
<Burgundavia> I argued that we can cleanup our icons and make better artwork and win more people over
<Burgundavia> plus, if we are going to further go down that path, it strikes me we should be solving the multimedia issue before the bling one
<mdke> users will come to expect us to ship non-free software to compete, and we'll come to depend on it
<Mithrandir> drivers have always been special, though
<Burgundavia> yes, they have
<Burgundavia> however, Mako makes an excellent point about just working != extra bling
<Mithrandir> it's a fine line to draw.
<Burgundavia> something I said to Jono when we talked on Sunday
<Mithrandir> (is dual screen working bling or not?)
<Burgundavia> and Jono pointed that out. For some, just working == bling
<mdke> coming to depend on non-free software is really dangerous though, not just for our own sake, but also because it doesn't give those who won't open up the incentive to change
<mdke> and to see that free software can work as a model
<mdke> if Mark believes that it can work, he should stick to it
<Burgundavia> however, I still hold that if we are going to sacrifice our freedom further, we should solve the multimedia issue first
<mdke> well, we are solving it
<mdke> install on demand for codecs is a solution
<Burgundavia> we can do the same for drivers then
<mdke> 100% agreed
<crimsun> I've always found it interesting that people are willing to "look the other way" for, say, wifi drivers
<mdke> that's true.
<mdke> Mithrandir: changing the subject, any ideas on that freeze thing?
<Mithrandir> mdke: for stable releases, I think we should require that any string changes are either accompanied by translation updates (for non-typo fixes)
<Mithrandir> or are just typo fixes, in which case the translation ought to not have the typo
<Mithrandir> for normal string freezes, I think having the same rules in effect, but be a bit more lax in what updates we accept.
<Mithrandir> (the stable updates have to go through the full SRU procedure which is enough, I believe)
<Mithrandir> mdke: ^^ thoughts?
<mdke> Mithrandir: just reminding myself of what the SRU procedure is
<mdke> Mithrandir: string changes don't satisfy anything in the "When" section
<Mithrandir> instructions which are directly harmful is an example of the last one.
<mdke> Mithrandir: ah, ok. So only things like that
<mdke> that sounds sensible
<Mithrandir> you could argue a glaring typo (think misspelling "Ubuntu" in the main help title) is a severe regression from the previous release.
<Mithrandir> apart from those kind of things, I don't think stable releases should be updated.  They're released, after all.
<mdke> yeah, ok.
<mdke> the procedure for determining which bugs can be addressed in the unstable release?
<Burgundavia> sru
<mdke> eh?
<mdke> that's a bit stiff
<Mithrandir> string freeze is about three weeks prior to release (for edgy), about a month and a half prior to release for feisty, so the procedure could be roughly what it is for other package updates:  - maintainer's call until the archive's frozen (but soliciting input from a release team member is of course of), - release manager's call after that.
<mdke> sounds fine.
<Mithrandir> we don't want to freeze it too deeply too early; if so, the freezes are useless (since they'll be equivalent for a release, from a string pov)
<mdke> what were you going to say after "is of course of"
<Mithrandir> s/of/ok/
<Mithrandir> so "is of course ok"
<mdke> gotcha
<mdke> thanks for your help
* Burgundavia stirs the pot
<Mithrandir> we need to write this down as a procedure somewhere, probably on the StringFreeze page; can one of you do that?
<mdke> sure
<Mithrandir> I'll be happy to review it to make sure it matches my interpretation of what we agreed to.
<mdke> i've started doing that
<Mithrandir> excellent, thanks.  Please ping me when it's shaping up.
<mdke> Mithrandir: ping
<Mithrandir> oh, you're quick.  *chuckles*
<mdke> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationStringFreeze
<Mithrandir> how do we communicate with translators to ensure they get the message about updates?
<mdke> by mailing list
<mdke> I'll add that
<Mithrandir> hmm, we understood that you wanted just one string freeze, not a docstringfreeze and a stringfreeze when we did the release schedule.  Is that wrong?
<mdke> I haven't heard anything about that
<mdke> traditionally DocumentationStringFreeze has always been separate to the programs string freeze
<mdke> but since StringFreeze seems quite late, it sounds fine to me to have them at the same time
<mdke> Mithrandir: the only problem might be where an application changes a string and this affects the documentation. That's the case with menu entries.
<mdke> it would be nice to get warning of late-ish changes of that nature
<mdke> still, since in the past docSF seems to have come before normal SF, I suppose this is an improvement :)
<Mithrandir> mdke: I'll be happy to work with you on finding something which works for you; I must say I'm fairly string-ignorant myself so it's not one of the itches I scratch..
<mdke> Mithrandir: alright, thanks. Let's leave it like this and see
* mdke -> work
<jsgotangco> ive transferred ownership of ubuntu-doc in lp to mdke just fyi
<robotgeek> Burgundavia: i emailed Jeff Waugh a couple of times, but i got no response. i just gave up
<nixternal> mdke: the only reason i did that is because we don't ship nor translate that doc
<shwag> it would be nice if  /etc/network/interfaces  by default had a bunch of commented out lines showing how to do basic things like a static ip address assignment.
<LaserJock> I suppose the idea is that you shouldn't have to mess around with it unless you know what you're doing
<LaserJock> but I don't find that we are quite there :-)
<LaserJock> nixternal: ping
<LaserJock> mdke: ping
<mdke> LaserJock: hello?
<mdke> nixternal: ah, I didn't realise it wasn't shipped. In that case, it shouldn't even be in the branch
<LaserJock> mdke: hmm, what was I going to say
<LaserJock> oh yeah
<LaserJock> did you do a spec for building doc team tools?
<mdke> LaserJock: yes, I mailed it to you! Lemme dig it out
<mdke> LaserJock: it needs a lot of work.
<mdke> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/simplify-ubuntu-docs-build-process <- LaserJock
<LaserJock> I found it
<LaserJock> ok, I wanted to add it to my todo list
<mdke> wow!
<LaserJock> but I couldn't remember if we had a spec for it or not
<mdke> one often requested feature is to add support for individual translation maintainers to import a single language. We'll have to look at adding that
<mdke> let's work together. It's already a lot better than it was for Edgy
<mdke> {everyone} the presentation is starting soon for the Open Week. Who is attending?
<LaserJock> I'll be around
<LaserJock> well, I see what I can do
<LaserJock> I already have a ton of things to do for Feisty
<mdke> sure
<LaserJock> trying to make core-dev soonish
<mdke> we'll prioritise parts of it
<mdke> ah, nice. About time
<LaserJock> anyway, at least finishing a spec of and writing down what we want
<LaserJock> we can even get some interested person to do the actual coding
<LaserJock> if we don't have time to do it all
<mdke> yeah
<LaserJock> but I do enjoy doing this shell/python scripting stuff
<mdke> do you know how to get shell scripts to take arguments?
<LaserJock> sure
<mdke> ok, that should be enough :)
<LaserJock> python has better handling of them
<LaserJock> but it's certainly possible in a shell script
<LaserJock> much of /usr/bin is a shell script ;-)
<mdke> ok. It's mainly debian/rules and the translate.sh scripts that need work
<LaserJock> yeah, I think a good general approach is to write some individual shell scripts
<LaserJock> that do a particular task, like translate.sh
<LaserJock> and then pull them all together in a nice package with python
<LaserJock> in MOTU we have something similar
<mdke> oh bloody hell. The open week presentation is tomorrow, not today.
<LaserJock> oh
* mdke smacks
<LaserJock> oh right, simon's on now
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> alright, I'll do something else this evening then
<mdke> cya soon!
<LaserJock> cya
<Burgwork> mdke: how do you edit the fridge calendar?
<nixternal> LaserJock: pong?
<LaserJock> nixternal: regarding bzr
<nixternal> did i break it?
<LaserJock> bzr checks out the entire history of the repo
<LaserJock> svn doesn't
<nixternal> ahh
<LaserJock> so that's why it is slower to grab and larger
<LaserJock> but the whole history of the repo is local
<nixternal> ok, so say for instance, i do a booboo and commit to the dapper repo, i can bzr revert it instantly ?
<nixternal>  ;)
<LaserJock> yes
<LaserJock> at least locally
<LaserJock> you commit locally
<LaserJock> publish remotely
<nixternal> if you branch you commit locally
<nixternal> if you checkout you commit regular
<LaserJock> right
<LaserJock> bzr can basically be run in an "SVN" mode
<nixternal> ya, that is the same as doing a checkout
<nixternal> i have Ichthux branched, or used to branch, and i would commit locally and then push
<nixternal> my only issue with Bazaar would be 1) To slow, and 2) Space consuming
<nixternal> s/issue/issues
<LaserJock> on the other hand
<LaserJock> you can go to a computer that has fast internet and download the repo to a usb stick
<LaserJock> and you have the complete history with you
<nixternal> i have an 8mb down connection, is that fast enough?
<nixternal> and it still took over an hour to do a checkout
<LaserJock> yep
<LaserJock> but we can also make a tarball
<nixternal> the problem isn't bandwidth, i can tell you that now
<nixternal> i sniffed packets and watched them drop constantly at the bazaar server
<LaserJock> the easiest thing for people to use would be a tarball of the repo
<LaserJock> yeah, there's some issues for sure
<LaserJock> for a long time (not sure if it still does it) bzr would die on my home DSL router
<LaserJock> because it made so many DNS requests
<LaserJock> so a bzr branch would fail 4 out of 5 times
<nixternal> ya, it is quite horrid..but i think as soon as they get that fixed it will rock on..definitely a bright future for it
<LaserJock> yes, I think between the latest releases of bzr and having access to bazaar.launchpad.net we might be able to make it work
<LaserJock> the nice thing about bazaar.launchpad.net is we have an easy way to control access
<nixternal> w/o a doubt that is a nice thing about it
<LaserJock> however, svn has been working fine for us so far, with the exception of access control
<nixternal> well, access control hasn't been that big of an issue has it? mdke pretty much requests it through rt and boom usually within a day it is taken care of
<LaserJock> it certainly wasn't always that way
<LaserJock> it took me something like a month to get mine
<LaserJock> but that's way back when elmo did everything
<nixternal> ya
<LaserJock> I'm not really sure why Riddell is pushing bzr so much
<nixternal> what is cool with Bazaar is you can sign your commits and everythign just like you would packaging
<LaserJock> I know he lost his svn password
<nixternal> hehe
<LaserJock> but surely he can get that back
<nixternal> well, i think the Bazaar push might be coming from higher maybe?  I know pretty much every project is utilizing it to some extent
<nixternal> uniformity
<dsas> possibly it's just easier to only have to remember one RCS.
<LaserJock> perhaps
<nixternal> dsas: that is true...i started checking out instead of branching with bzr to make it more svn like
<LaserJock> but KDE isn't using bzr
<LaserJock> so I would think he'd be used to using svn anyway
<nixternal> well KDE isn't "buntu" either
<LaserJock> sure
<LaserJock> but I'm just saying for him I'd bet he still uses svn a fair amount
<nixternal> i know that Riddell uses bzr for the kubuntu-default-settings
<LaserJock> well, bzr should be used for most ubuntu packaging tasks
<nixternal> of course...he does a lot of committing to KDE, so he is using svn like mad on a daily basis
<LaserJock> that's pretty normal
<LaserJock> anyway
<LaserJock> I know there is a push for us to use bzr
<LaserJock> and I like it
<LaserJock> but IMO it just doesn't seem to fit our repo well
<LaserJock> we don't really need the decentralized aspects
<LaserJock> the only nice thing I can see is using the LP team for access control
<nixternal> ya...i am for whatever works honestly
<nixternal> svn works and so does bzr..i will let the politicians choose
<LaserJock> :-)
<Mithrandir> LaserJock: you're aware that bzr can check out svn directly?
<LaserJock> how so?
<LaserJock> bzr can checkout a svn repo?
<Mithrandir> install bzr-svn, do bzr branch svn+ssh://host/repo
<LaserJock> hmm
<LaserJock> I don't know if that's be much help to us
<LaserJock> perhaps
<LaserJock> that's a very cool idea
<Mithrandir> oh, more as a comment to the "but riddell has to use svn anyway" bit you said.
<LaserJock> ah
<LaserJock> yes, that makes sense
<mdke> Burgwork: add an event
<mdke> Burgwork: or edit an existing one
<Burgwork> ok, I will add another one
<Burgwork> mdke: do I need a body?
<mdke> Burgwork: yeah, it's desirable, although not technically necessary
<Burgwork> ok
<mdke> nixternal: note that you can also use revert with svn
<mdke> what do people think of the categories on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TopicBasedHelp? Any ideas for reshuffling/adding/removing them?
<LaserJock> seems good to me
<stelis> Perhaps split Internet into "Web" and an Email+IM topic
<LaserJock> I guess I would put "#
<LaserJock> I guess I would put "Adding, Removing and Updating Applications
<LaserJock> #
<LaserJock> higher
<LaserJock> sorry, that didn't come out right ;-)
<mdke> got it. I don't get the Internet split though
<mdke> maybe we could merge "Administrative Tasks" into Linux Basics, and move "Add/Remove etc" up to follow that
<stelis> There's a lot of overlap between Email and IM, but not much between Web browsing and messaging
<mdke> stelis: what do you mean by overlap?
<stelis> Plus people may tend to look specifically for an Email topic
<stelis> They work very similarly (conceptually)
<mdke> If anything, I can see a reason to separate "Connecting to the internet" from "Using the Internet", but I don't think we have enough space to start treating a single internet task separately to others
<stelis> Well, I tend to the think of "Internet" as a technical bracket, more than one that end-users use
<stelis> I agree that connectivity is a different issue to using the Internet
<mdke> hmm. Maybe "Using the Internet" and "Communicating" or something similar
<mdke> but, the applications menu groups internet applications... so keeping that would be an advantage
<stelis> I suppose it depends on how task orientated you want the topics to be
<dsas> I'd wager that most people use email through their browser.
<dsas> Communicating seems vague too.
* dsas bikesheds
* mdke nods
<mdke> let's cling to the menu structure a bit
<dsas> "Using your desktop" should probably be "using your computer"
<dsas> Or something, it doesn't seem obvious to me what is in there, but based on my knowledge of the DG the games/office/photos sections?
<stelis> http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Drafts/DesktopUserGuide
<mdke> well, those have separate sections
<mdke> it would be the Gnome user guide, basically
<dsas> ah, cool.
<mdke> maybe we can come up with a better description though, definitely
<stelis> For comparison
* mdke mails the list, bed
<nixternal> g'nite
#ubuntu-doc 2006-11-29
<david_corrales_> hi everyone :)
<david_corrales_> anyone know if there's any special procedure for changing the locale of docbook documents for yelp?
<dsas> david_corrales_: Do you mean translating the documents? Or running yelp to run using another language that already has a translation?
<david_corrales_> hi and thanks :)
<david_corrales_> the second one, running yelp with a different docbook
<david_corrales_> corresponding to the current locale
<dsas> david_corrales_: it should automatically run to what the users locale is set to, if the correct langpack is installed
<david_corrales_> I'm asking because I'm in charge of integrating yelp with Jokosher
<dsas> david_corrales_: oh, from a development point of view I think there's some Deep Magic
<david_corrales_> I was thinking about using the standard locale folders for organizing different docbook translations
<dsas> david_corrales_: mdke is the one most likely to know about how it works, something to do with .omf and scrollkeeper I believe
<dsas> david_corrales_: also the guys in the gnome-doc channel on irc.gimpnet.org
<david_corrales_> thanks for the info
<dsas> david_corrales_: mdke probably documented it in our wiki, I'll see if I can find anything.
<david_corrales_> I'll go ask the gnome peeps
<david_corrales_> thanks for your help :)
<dsas> david_corrales_: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Translation
<david_corrales_> cool, checking it out right now
<david_corrales_> thanks
<david_corrales_> hmm gnome-doc is empty
<david_corrales_> lol
<david_corrales_> that bug also affects the tempo of course
<david_corrales_> since it'll set an invalid or None value internally
<dsas> david_corrales_: sorry, it's #docs
<david_corrales_> I already joined
<david_corrales_> but no answers yet
<david_corrales_> still, thanks for the info
<david_corrales_> :)
<dsas> david_corrales_: Feel free to look at our Makefile and translate.sh they should help.
<david_corrales_> where are those located?
<dsas> david_corrales_: https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/trunk/Makefile
<david_corrales_> thanks man :)
<david_corrales_> already found someone willing on the docs channel! w00t
<dsas> david_corrales_:  andhttps://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/trunk/ubuntu/desktopguide/translate.sh
<dsas> david_corrales_:  Cool, good luck.
<david_corrales_> thanks a bunch, excellent startup
<somian> How's our tolerence here, for OT user questions?
<crimsun> aka "support" questions?
<somian> Yep
<crimsun> use #ubuntu / #kubuntu / #xubuntu / #edubuntu
<somian> I'm running ubuntu and tried #ubuntu
<somian> It's impossible, killed by its own success, apparently.
<crimsun> try again in a bit
<somian> Even if s'ome there know the answer to my question, I don't think they'll ever see it.
<crimsun> or use a distribution-independent channel
<somian> It's a pretty distro-specific question.
<crimsun> again, #ubuntu .
<somian> I've got a 6.06 workstation cd I am running as a live system. Under these circumstances (I cannot perform a full system install on this box), does Ubuntu have support for choosing a hard disk directory to be $HOME, or at least for saving user files / config?
<robotgeek> Burgundavia: do you access to planet.ubuntu.com?
<Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PlanetUbuntu
<robotgeek> thanks Burgundavia
<somian> robotgeek+
<robotgeek> somian: i have no idea
* mode/#ubuntu-doc [+o Burgundavia]  by ChanServ
* mode/#ubuntu-doc [-o Burgundavia]  by Burgundavia
<towsonu2003> I usually don't post the same message to all the chat rooms I'm in, but you've gotta see this: http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Kurdish_operating_system_under_investigation_by_Turkish_attorney_general
<towsonu2003> Kurdish operating system in that link is... Ubuntu.
<Burgundavia> towsonu2003: hmm
<Burgundavia> towsonu2003: assuming that is correct (you speak Turkish, correct?), please add it to this weeks UWN
<towsonu2003> I did :) -I'm Turkish-
<towsonu2003> Burgundavia, it's #24 right? (just to make sure it was the correct one ehueh)
<Burgundavia> yep
<towsonu2003> Burgundavia, ok, thanks
<mdke> morning
<Burgundavia> morning mdke
<Burgundavia> mpt: merge teams is something you LP people can do
<mdke> there is a bug open about that
<mdke> it's been open for a seriously long time
<mpt> oh
<mdke> well, january anyway
<Burgundavia> mdke: hmm, just looking at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TopicBasedHelp/TopLevelCategories
<mdke> yeah
<Burgundavia> good stuff, one comment
<Burgundavia> the new ot ubuntu stuff
<mdke> yes
<Burgundavia> maybe the common qeustions should be its own topic heading
<mdke> it is, isn't it?
<Burgundavia> the new to ubuntu is the common questions?
<Burgundavia> then how about this: rename new to ubuntu to common questions
<Burgundavia> and have a "moving to Ubuntu" section
<Burgundavia> with quick tips on people moving from windows, mac, other linux distros, etc.
<mdke> sure, sounds good
<Burgundavia> ok, will do the edits
<mdke> if the Switching document gets finished that will go well there
<Burgundavia> yep
<Burgundavia> but the migration assistant is getting paid work this cycle
<Burgundavia> ok, I hate compiz
<mdke> migration assistant?
<Burgundavia> the thing that pulls data from existing OSes and dumps them into Ubuntu
<mpt> I don't think people will go into "Common Questions" just in case their question is a common one
<Burgundavia> Fast Answers?
<mpt> heh
<mdke> mpt: you think they'll go to the search?
<mpt> 1. Fast Answers
<mpt> 2. Slow Answers
<Burgundavia> 3. Slower Answers
<Burgundavia> 4. Answers so slow we should shoot them
<mdke> well, I'm not a fan of including sections which aren't topic structured, but I felt that people wanted a faq type section
<mpt> mdke, I think the only way listing common questions would help would be doing it on the front page, so that people consider them at the same time as they consider the topics
<mpt> which would mean, only a few of them
<mdke> we can leave it out if the topics we have are obvious enough that people can go there to find their question
<mpt> well, it's not so much about whether topics are obvious *enough*
<mpt> but about whether "Common Questions" would make people faster or slower on average
<Burgundavia> here is an idea: have a fast answers section at the top of each section
<mdke> mpt: ok. I think slower.
<mpt> yeah
<mpt> hmm
<mpt> Vista has both on the front page
<mpt> (but Vista's help viewer is ridiculously large)
<mpt> OS X's front page has "What's New", "Discover Your Mac" (what does that mean?), four "Top Customer Issues", and "Index"
<mpt> no categories on the front page at all
<mpt> weird
<mdke> ok, so we can at least beat them
<mpt> yes
<mpt> but can we have a nice layout?
<mdke> hopefully
<mdke> what does it take?
<mpt> I'm thinking perhaps two columns
<mdke> with?
<mpt> First column, a nice picture of an Ubuntu system, with the top ~5 questions underneath it
<mpt> Second column, the topic categories
* mpt wonders if Apple really thought people would get help by clicking on a link labelled "Work smart, play hard"
<mdke> I think the first column is unlikely, myself
<Burgundavia> well, I need to crash
<mpt> I should draw a picture
* mdke points mpt towards the blackboard
<mdke> night Burgundavia
<mpt> goodnight Burgundavia
* mpt realizes he doesn't know where the "undavia" comes from
<mdke> me neither
<mdke> soon, I'll maybe rearrange the layout of our repo to reflect the category structure, when it's ready
<mdke> the linking between documents is going to be a bit tricky
<mdke> but doable.
<mdke> (I hope)
#ubuntu-doc 2006-11-30
<nixternal> fumbalah: you around?
<mdke> morning
<jrib> Hello everyone, I was wondering if there would be a problem (performance or otherwise) with placing logs for OpenWeek directly on the wiki instead of on outside hosting
<mdke> jrib: no, it should be on the wiki.
<jrib> mdke: thanks
<mihakriket> Is anybody working on any specific wiki document?
<Burgwork> mihakriket: nobody owns any specific wiki doc
<Burgwork> which one do you want to work on?
<mihakriket> Commandline howto
<mdke> mihakriket: cool, what have you got in mind for it?
#ubuntu-doc 2006-12-01
<tonyyarusso> How do you make a single word a wikiname link again?
<tonyyarusso> Burgundavia, poningru, jenda: ping?
<poningru> whatup yo?
<poningru> CameCase
<poningru> and [] 
<poningru> encase in that
<tonyyarusso> poningru: I don't remember how to make a single word link properly (namely, Classroom)
<tonyyarusso> So [Classroom] ?
<poningru> yeah iirc
<poningru> might be diff in moin
<Burgundavia> ["Classrom"] 
<poningru> ah cool
<tonyyarusso> Ah, thanks Burgundavia
<mdke> tonyyarusso: you can also do [:Classroom:link text]  if you want different text to link to the page
<mdke> morning all
<tonyyarusso> mdke: Thanks
* tonyyarusso is just on his way to bed
<nixternal> morning
<Burgundavia> hey nixternal
<nixternal> hiya Burgundavia
<nixternal> http://nixternal.ubuntu-rocks.org/stuff/doc/help.png
<nixternal> how would something like that work out for the main help window for kubuntu?
<mdke> That looks seriously good, nixternal. How did you do that?
<nixternal> gimp
<mdke> oh, right.
<nixternal> that would be easy to do with html, since that is what KHelpCenter reads
<mdke> is it possible to get khelpcenter to start on a customised html page?
<nixternal> yes
<mdke> sounds very promising
<mdke> nice work!
<Burgundavia> nixternal: looks good
<nixternal> i will whip up a html version that will run in khelpcenter within the next couple of days..run it past Riddell and see if he can put it in
<nixternal> thanks
<Burgundavia> is it possible to nerf the sidebar on teh main page?
<nixternal> i started out with inkscape, but realised i would be better off with ms paint
<nixternal> that side bar would be a lot of hacking at the code
<mdke> you'd also have to make a new way of getting to the kde documents if you nuked the sidebar
<Burgundavia> yep
<nixternal> ya..something for the professionals to do
<nixternal> hopefully for kde 4 khelpcenter will get revamped
<nixternal> it has been the same for 10 years
<poningru> hehe
<Burgundavia> the thing that worries me about KDE4 is inflated expectations
<Burgundavia> much like Edgy
<Burgundavia> I haven't really seen anything truly cool and unique yet
<nixternal> ya, i just seen an "unreleased" demo and thats it
<mdke> nixternal: btw, I see your categories are slightly different, can you add comments to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TopicBasedHelp/TopLevelCategories on why you selected slightly differently
<mdke> I like how you've combined "about" and "moving to" kubuntu
<nixternal> i grabbed the categories pretty much from that page, so i thought
<mdke> ah, ok. There are a few differences
<mdke> the most significant one is separate categories for Networking and Internet
<mdke> which is interesting. I'm not sure
<nixternal> ahhh ya
<nixternal> network and internet are 2 large categories by themselves...
<nixternal> internet carries browsing, email, and IM
<mdke> yeah, I see it.
<nixternal> network would be your file sharing, print sharing, samba, nfs and such
<mdke> I'm just not sure how far the user might understand the distinction
<nixternal> hmm..good point
<nixternal> im sure a few people would know..but if someone like my mom up and switched..she would be lost
* mdke nods
<mdke> what does the kde application/start menu do in terms of categories?
<nixternal> stock would be "Graphics, Internet, Multimedia, Office, System, Utilities"
<mdke> i c
<nixternal> i thought about topical based off of that as well...but the System & Utilities would be very large and broad categories
<mdke> yeah, those aren't good categories
<nixternal> ahh well, i think i just heard my pillow scream out my name ;)
<nixternal> i will chat with you later, i need to go dream about documentation or something
<nixternal> and then wake up and shovel/snow blow the 10 plus inches we are supposed to receive
<nixternal> g'nite
<mdke> gnite nixternal
<PriceChild> Hey
<PriceChild> Could someone take a look http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=310276 there please? Someone's having wierd problems with the wiki :S
<willvdl> jsgotangco, ola
<jsgotangco> hi
<jdong> hey guys, a small suggestion and not meant to be taken offensively to you guys, who do great work anyway .....
<jdong> perhaps it'd be a good idea for us to have some more formal release notes
<jdong> i.e. look at the release notes coming with each Fedora or RHEL release/ service pack
<jdong> a good example is Edgy's bash->dash migration.... there should've been more heads-up about that
<jdong> (formal release notes = notable changes for the user, not just a look-at-shiny-new-GUI-features overview)
<tonyyarusso> jdong: Interesting thought.  One thing that concerns me is that what you're proposing sounds like a pretty detailed changelog, which would be a very long document.
<jdong> tonyyarusso: yeah, it definitely is more changelog in nature than our current "oooh, look new shade of orange, and new clicky buttons on gedit" release notes :D
<jdong> and harder to write
<nixternal> i hate snow
<mdke> PriceChild: i'll have a look
<mdke> ah, the classic "can't read" issue
<PriceChild> Hi there
<PriceChild> it's fixed now
<PriceChild> supposedly :)
<PriceChild> thanks :)
<mdke> PriceChild: well, it wasn't a problem in the first place
<mdke> still, hopefully he will have no problem in the future
<PriceChild> yup :)
<PriceChild> matthew said thanks incase you missed it
<mdke> got the email, thank
<mdke> (s)
<LaserJock> mdke: still up?
<mdke> LaserJock: vaguely. is it quick?
<LaserJock> oh, I just wondered if you got somebody to cover for you?
<mdke> not sure
* mdke opens his email
<mdke> not yet
<LaserJock> mdke: I could swing it if need be
<mdke> LaserJock: that would be nice
<LaserJock> but I've already done 2 sessions so if anybody else wants to do it they are certainly welcom
<LaserJock> e
<LaserJock> I just don't want to leave it hanging :-)
<mdke> some kind of group action would work well
<LaserJock> yeah
<LaserJock> but it's about 10:00am for me
<LaserJock> so not really any inconvenience
* mdke nods
<LaserJock> I guess I'll just plan on attending, and if nobody shows up i'll give it
<mdke> that would be really helpful, thanks
<LaserJock> your notes and log have everything so it should be a piece of cake ;-)
<mdke> hope so. If you can make it, maybe do some more practical like showing them some docs
* mdke beds
#ubuntu-doc 2006-12-02
<nixternal> please no more snow
<LaserJock> heh
<nixternal> i feel like i did an ahnold size workout today
<Seveas> yay robotgeek on planet!
<XiXaQ> How does Ubuntu documentation get translated, document by document, or sentence by sentence?
<rob> document by document, by sentence
<rob> https://launchpad.net/rosetta
<rob> choose a distro
<fabbione> hi guys
<nixternal> hola fabbione
<fabbione> well i solved my problem..
<fabbione> thanks
* nixternal waits to see how many join
<LaserJock> who knows
<nixternal> now they will come
<LaserJock> hehe
<nixternal> told ya
<nixternal> we should setup #ubuntu-docs to route to here for them mistakes
<nixternal> i do it all of the time
<LaserJock> yeah, I can never remember
<LaserJock> we have the channel, the ML and the packages
<LaserJock> I can never remember if its -doc or -docs
<nixternal> man..i was gonna goto lunch..but my sister called and asked if I wanted Portillos...she brought me breakfast, and now lunch..i love this life ;p
<LaserJock> heh
<robotgeek> Seveas: yay, finally i figured out how to do that :)
<rob> hey anyone around?
<robotgeek> hey rob
<rob> hi robotgeek
<rob> we (as in freenode) want to use rosetta to do translations of our web site, is it ok to use this license for our stuff and still use rosetta? http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nd/2.0/
<rob> Attribution-NoDerivs 2.0
<rob> CC license
<robotgeek> i would guess so, let me check
<rob> thanks :)
<robotgeek> rob: https://help.launchpad.net/RosettaFAQ says it will be under same license
<rob> thanks robotgeek :D
#ubuntu-doc 2006-12-03
<nixternal> http://nixternal.ubuntu-rocks.org/stuff/doc/ktbh
<nixternal> tell me what you think..i just got another idea though, only if khelpcenter supports frames
<robotgeek> nixternal: other than the frames, i think that is cool
<nixternal> ya, i just thought about the frames...i nixed the idea walking to the tv ;)
<nixternal> in the FAQ section, add a link to "More FAQ"
<robotgeek> but that looks extremely cool
<nixternal> of course i would probably elect someone else who can do that up better than i did..make it look more professional
<robotgeek> nixternal: that is pretty good, i think
<robotgeek> are we going to start writing this in the wiki?
<nixternal> i don't think we are going to the wiki for it
<nixternal> so we will create the sections, and then seperate them i guess
* mdke mornings
<mdke> rob: you ought to check with the rosetta admins if it's possible to use rosetta for non-free material - generally I believe LP is for free software only, but I'm sure there are exceptions. it's worth checking though
<rob> its not exactly non-free, its just non-modifiable
<rob> but thanks, I'll pass that on
<mdke> well, I don't know the exact definition of non-free, but my conception of it would exclude non-modifiable stuff ;)
<mdke> I doubt it will be a problem though
<rob> alright, sounds good
* mdke kicks his email
<rob> we are just looking at doing website translations in it
<mdke> tricky
<mdke> what format is the text in?
<rob> well, at the moment they are mostly just static html pages
<mdke> I see.
<rob> but that may change I guess
* mdke checks the cricket
<mdke> argh
<mdke> stupid aussies
<rob> hehe
<rob> 5/312
<GrantG> 'lo
<mdke> hi there manicka
<manicka> hi mdke :)
<manicka> how's life on the doc team?
<mdke> not too bad thanks. you?
<manicka> I'm pretty good. I've been helping out a bit on the en_GB translation team, but apart from that I've been keeping a low profile
<mdke> gotcha
<mdke> well we can always use a hand, if you're thinking of getting back involved
<manicka> thanks, I'l keep it in mind, maybe rejoin the list and see what's happening
<mdke> cool.
<mdke> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/OpenWeekNotes is probably a quick way to get back into that
<manicka> thanks :)
* mdke starts to try to figure out a structure for implementing the topic based help spec in our repo
* Gwaihir is away: I'll be right back!
* Gwaihir is back (gone 00:10:52)
<mdke> hmm. Two things that I can't figure out where to put in the topic categories... printing and partitions/booting. ideas welcome :)
<nixternal> mdke: i think you either found a few more topics, or maybe create 1 new topic for Ubuntu Administration or Practices or something
<nixternal> i just got done chatting with the KHelpCenter devs and the KDE Doc guy..there is a lot of work to be done with KHelpCenter
<robotgeek> nixternal: really?
<nixternal> ya, on the dev side though
<nixternal> i will create an email of our chat so you all can see and maybe add some insite into it
<robotgeek> sure, that works
<nixternal> they said it might be better for us to create a small C++ client for our topic based help. he said it would be easy to take the html we create and turn it into C++
<nixternal> that is above and beyond any power my brain is currently puting out
<robotgeek> haha, if i could code c++, i would be coding c++
<nixternal> they like the layout i did (although they mainly use FreeBSD so they had some Tux comments) ;)
<robotgeek> btw, i am on "vacation" for the next 2 weeks or so, i will be available after that. i will try *not* to catch up on email :)
<nixternal> haha
<nixternal> cool, so i know not to come bugging you then..hopefully by the time you get back we will have some work lined up
<robotgeek> nixternal: hah, its not like you bug me at all!
<nixternal> hehe
<nixternal> ok, then i will try harder from now on ;p
<robotgeek> sure, that't not an issue. i want to finish most work before i start school
<nixternal> ya..school is catching up here as well...next semester i will be enrolled with 21 or 25 credits
<nixternal> can't remember
<robotgeek> i will be enrolled in 3 classes, with 2 classes having labs. they will take their toll, lol
<nixternal> it is really not big, since 2 classes are 6 credit hours each (Marketing Management Field Course & I forgot the other one already)
<nixternal> i have 2 lab classes, both programming i believe next semester
<nixternal> but those will be fairly easy, at least i am hoping they will be
<robotgeek> i code, but only in python now. the courses i take are going to be dealng with assembly and gcc :P
<nixternal> gcc, nice
<nixternal> my c++ classes will be with MS, but my instructor is the Linux instructor, and she is trying to get the course done in Eclipse and teach more fundamental C++ instead of OS specific C++
<robotgeek> yeah, i dont really like visual studio, after using linux for a while, that seems non-standard :)
<nixternal> ya it does
<nixternal> most of the time i am ssh'd into my server here on IRC and doing Ubuntu work during class ;)
<robotgeek> heh
#ubuntu-doc 2007-11-26
<bla2000> there is an error in https://help.ubuntu.com/community/RestrictedFormats
<bla2000> It should be sudo apt-get install ubuntu-restricted-extras
<bla2000> in the 7.10 instructions
<bla2000> currently it says sudo apt-get ubuntu-restricted-extras
<jjesse> bla2000: please report a bug or submit a patch fixing it :)
<bla2000> It's just the wiki that needs updatings
<jjesse> do you have edit rights on the wiki?
<bla2000> The instructions overlook "install"
<bla2000> No.
<bla2000> Newbs may get confused.
<jjesse> i understand, heading to bed can you post to ubuntu-doc mailing list?
<bla2000> I'll try
<bla2000> I've just sent an email to ubuntu-doc@lists.ubuntu.com
<bla2000> Thanks.
<posingaspopular> that one seems to be fixed already
<coastGNU> Is there a documentation for oem-config? Didn't find it on launchpad and wiki.ubuntu.com...
#ubuntu-doc 2007-11-27
<jjesse> anyone here how could help point someone out to getting edubuntu promo material and information?
<j1mc> can anyone help with this? http://pastebin.ca/798954
<j1mc> why does it show no revisions to push when i have updated files?
<somerville32> What is it j1mc ?
<somerville32> Oh
<somerville32> Did you commit them?
<somerville32> bzr commit
<j1mc> will do, thanks.
<quadrispro> Hi
<sommer> hello
<quadrispro> I'm a Ubuntu Italian Loco member, I've just subscribed the Doc team ML, I hope to give an help when it will needed
<sommer> cool thanks quadrispro
<quadrispro> :) nothing, it's a pleasure
<sommer> quadrispro: if you haven't already this page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam
<sommer> has information on contributing to the docs
<quadrispro> Ok thank you very much! During this period I'm working to italian translation of xubuntu-docs, I'll read it soon... ;)
<LaserJock> Admiral_Chicago: ping
<sommer> jjesse: hello
<Admiral_Chicago> LaserJock: pong
<Admiral_Chicago> whats up
<LaserJock> Admiral_Chicago: dude, I loved your blog post
<LaserJock> Admiral_Chicago: I've done a little research on LB films
<Admiral_Chicago> thanks
<Admiral_Chicago> LaserJock: the department loves it, they basically save the time it took to write in one running
<Admiral_Chicago> is it a chem tool or biochem too LaserJock?
<LaserJock> not quite sure, probably both
<Admiral_Chicago> okay
<LaserJock> I come from the chem side
<LaserJock> but I can imagine biochemists using them
<Admiral_Chicago> i come from the physics side :)
<Admiral_Chicago> we just know how to code
<LaserJock> heh
<LaserJock> well, I am a physical chemist
<LaserJock> so I live a little on the physicsy side of life
<Admiral_Chicago> i've never taking a college level chem course. my friend who wrote it did o chem, p chem, analyt
<Admiral_Chicago> the whole spectrum
<Admiral_Chicago> he is a biochem double major though
<Admiral_Chicago> LaserJock: the next step is to make a GUI front end I think
<Admiral_Chicago> just for loading file, setting molarity, error etc
<Admiral_Chicago> in the long run create ideal mixing formulas and that sort of thing
<LaserJock> sounds like a great addition to the FLOSS chemistry landscape ;-)
<LaserJock> I'd love to put together a uni-level chemistry software suite
<Admiral_Chicago> i did  a search in the packages and there doesn't seem to be software like this
<Admiral_Chicago> which is suprising to me. i know the LB trough interacts with some software to put out data but I think its all propietary
<sommer> hey all, I'm going to work on consolidating the Samba docs in the help wiki and noticed a lot of duplicate content
<sommer> I was just wondering what the best approach would be?
<sommer> is it better to have Samba, SambaPDC or Samba, Samba/PDC for example
<LaserJock> Admiral_Chicago: yeah, usually the instrument manufactures write some expensive software
<Admiral_Chicago> in h.u.c or w.u.c?
<sommer> Admiral_Chicago: h.u.c
<Admiral_Chicago> LaserJock: my advisor says if you want to do a little work and get paid a lot, you should make lab equiptment
<sommer> the effort is part of the Server Team Roadmap: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Roadmap?action=show#head-965290e80f25ebeb8334a7915d61ac7831577bde
<Admiral_Chicago> sommer: got a link?
<LaserJock> Admiral_Chicago: very true
<LaserJock> Admiral_Chicago: we have NMR stuff here in our department that's crazy
<LaserJock> Admiral_Chicago: it's Java but only runs on RHEL
<LaserJock> and you've gotta pay through the nose for it
<Admiral_Chicago> ah i see what you mean. sommer, i personally would see whats duplicate and consolidate from the smaller one into the more indepth one
<Admiral_Chicago> NMR?
<LaserJock> Nuclear Magnetic Resonance
<LaserJock> an MRI for scientists ;-)
<sommer> Admiral_Chicago: thanks I'll start there
<Admiral_Chicago> just checking
<Admiral_Chicago> i'm actually taking Nuclear Physics next semester...looking forward to that
<jjesse> hiya Admiral_Chicago
<jjesse> is it bad if you have a big hole in your front yard? http://www.flickr.com/photos/j0217995/2068792617/in/set-72157603315165637/
<Admiral_Chicago> hey jjesse
<Admiral_Chicago> not traveling this week
<jjesse> nope not traveling, was supposed but didn't happen
<Admiral_Chicago> good
<Admiral_Chicago> well i
<Admiral_Chicago> i'm off to the store...bbiab
<Admiral_Chicago> LaserJock: FYI, i'm looking into PyGlade / Glade for developing a GUI. I'll let you know if I push anything...or  just checkout the branch
<LaserJock> Admiral_Chicago: k
#ubuntu-doc 2007-11-28
<ubotu> New bug: #172565 in ubuntu-docs (main) "Playing Audio CDs Help Instruction Error" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/172565
<ubotu> New bug: #172566 in ubuntu-docs (main) "Sound Juicer Manual spelling error" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/172566
<DaSkreech> Hello :)
<jjesse> hello
<DaSkreech> I have a quick question
<jjesse> yes?
<DaSkreech> is xubuntu supported in the docs?
<jjesse> yes
<DaSkreech> ok
<DaSkreech> for the PureKDe page is there any plans to have a section for people who have upgraded from Xubuntu to Kubuntu?
<jjesse> i don't know for sure, but we could make some i guess
<DaSkreech> Okie :)
<ubotu> New bug: #172650 in ubuntu-doc "Universe and Multiverse Repositories Mislabled in Ubuntu Server Guide 7.10, 3. Package Management, Extra Repositories" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/172650
#ubuntu-doc 2007-11-29
<Madpilot> http://www.icao.int/fsix/_Library/Plain%20language%20guidance.pdf  <-- US gov't doc on writing readable technical docs. Worth downloading, IMO.
<quadrispro> hi
<quadrispro> have you read this https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xubuntu-docs/+bug/162403 ?
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 162403 in xubuntu-docs "Italian translations result untranslated" [Undecided,New]
<quadrispro> there's the same problem in all other translations
<eehoo> hello
<eehoo> is it possible to change one's wikiname?
<jpatrick_> change it on LP and then the Wiki
<eehoo> but how do i change it in the wiki?
<eehoo> I guess I could delete my current account there and create a new one
<eehoo> it's not like I've done anything significant with it
<eehoo> but I was wondering whether there would be a better way
<eehoo> ok, that didn't work :-(
<eehoo> now I can't log in to wiki.ubuntu.com at all anymore
<twitchnln> morning everyone
<twitchnln> i'm having a strange problem with u7.10, I am attempting to connect to a wep secured wireless network, but when I choose wep in the net manager, for the network, and i put in the key, the connect box stays greyed out, it has no problem connecting to unsecured networks or wpa/psk but wep is killing me
<twitchnln> anyone got any ideas?
<jjesse> did you try in #ubuntu
<jjesse> this is for the documentation team and not support
<twitchnln> no, i figured the people working on the docs would have the best idea of where to look for answers
<somerville32> twitchnln, Definitely #ubuntu :)
<seisen> window 4
#ubuntu-doc 2007-11-30
<oldmanstan> who be in charge of translations? anybody?
<somerville32> oldmanstan, Ogra was at one point
<somerville32> oldmanstan, ping
<btrigg> Hi There.  I'm on the Colorado LoCo and we have been discussing a user-friendly and educational way to confront this issue: http://ubuntuforums.org/announcement.php?a=54
<btrigg> An idea we had was a sort of "sudo tutorial": A graphical tutorial on fresh-installs that pops up and details the power and danger of running commands as root prior to allowing any root commands to be run.
<btrigg> I was referred here from #ubuntu-motu
<btrigg> Is this the place to find a champion for this idea?
<somerville32> btrigg, We already discuss the issue in the shipped documentation
<oldmanstan> btrigg: your goal is to make the issue real obvious to new ppl?
<btrigg> Understood.  But our thought is that RTFM isn't really that user-friendly.
<btrigg> Yes.
<somerville32> Unfortunately, there is no way to fully protect the user even if we forced them to try and read it
<btrigg> Docs are great if you are looking for something.  If you don't know what you don't know, then docs aren't really that effective.
<somerville32> btrigg, You might want to look for the people looking on the Welcome centre specification
<btrigg> Agreed; we cannot save everyone from themselves.
<somerville32> s/looking/working
<btrigg> Ok, thanks, I appreciate that.
<btrigg> The idea is that if we, as Ubuntu, provide education, then the folks who choose to ignore it are out of luck.  But we can say that we do educate our users instead of just letting them hang themselves or, worse, not letting them have enough rope to try.
<somerville32> Sadly, I think most people would close to pop-up anyhow or be scarred away
<somerville32> First thing they see when their new OS boots up:
<somerville32> "DO NOT RUN THE FOLLOWING COMMANDS OR ELSE:"
<btrigg> :-)
<btrigg> Well...not like that exactly..
<btrigg> More like...
<btrigg> "As with any OS, there are dangers with installing software from unknown sources"
<btrigg> Etc.
<btrigg> Please enter the root password to confirm you've read this and continue installing.
<btrigg> That kind of thing.
<somerville32> lol
<somerville32> We tell them not to randomly enter their root password and then we get them to do it :P
<btrigg> lol
<btrigg> Well...this is still within the comfy confines of their own system.
<btrigg> And we'd give them an out for that.
<btrigg> Have them enter the password and then choose to continue or abort.
<btrigg> Either way, the tutorial would be gone for good going forward.
<btrigg> You see where we're going with this, though, right?
<btrigg> Somewhere between man sudo and "allow or deny".
<somerville32> "You attempted to close this window. Allow or deny?"
<btrigg> Right.  The "You're an idiot.  We know better" Extreme.
<btrigg> And the RTFM extreme on the other end.
<btrigg> Somewhere between those two.
<btrigg> We're looking at the: "It's your system.  Here's how to use it wisely" approach.
<btrigg> If we came up with the text for it to be reviewed would that help?
<somerville32> Well, we can include it in the documentation
<somerville32> :)
<btrigg> Great, thanks!
<kgoetz> i dont think more popups will go down well with upstream/s. makin teh 'enter your password' dialguges more usful would be better imo
<btrigg> kgoetz: There's an idea
<btrigg> Like maybe context-sensitive warnings?
<btrigg> i.e. "rm -rf" can cause harm to your system type of stuff?
<somerville32> lol
<btrigg> What?  Why is that funny?
<kgoetz> deja vu
<kgoetz> just reading this http://ubuntuforums.org/announcement.php?a=54 ;)
<btrigg> Ah...yes.
<kgoetz> "rm -rf /"
<kgoetz> *grin*
<btrigg> That's what started this whole discussion in our LoCo.
<btrigg> But you can see why we could be shooting ourselves in the foot with this, yes?
<btrigg> We may not have the virus issue, but social engineering...that affects all of us.
<somerville32> btrigg, How does Windows deal with it?
<oldmanstan> btrigg: i agree
<btrigg> somerville32: lol
<kgoetz> problem is people get used to clicking 'close', and the more you ask them to, the less chance there is they'll do anything else
<btrigg> "Allow or Deny"
<kgoetz> windows's i've used havent *heh*
<oldmanstan> the key is people have to realize that they need to read at least a little about their new os
<oldmanstan> what about doing a screencast on "the dangers of sudo", talk to alan pope in #ubuntu-uk and those kids
<btrigg> oldmanstan: Agreed.  But really..who reads docs?
<oldmanstan> yeah, that's why a screencast might be good
<btrigg> oldmanstan: Awesome, thanks.
<oldmanstan> then throw it in people's desktops by default with a label saying "click here first!!!" or something, haha
<btrigg> We are just looking to give some education.  Maybe (pray) that it will reinforce the idea of reading the fine manual.
<btrigg> lol.  Yes.  Great idea, though!
<oldmanstan> yeah, i agree with your mission 100%, it's a tough task though
<btrigg> And...it can showcase the multimedia spiffiness of Ubuntu.
<btrigg> Great.  Thanks.
<oldmanstan> indeed
 * kgoetz finds the forums post a bit alarmist
<btrigg> Yes.  It is tough.  But I think it's the right thing to do.
<oldmanstan> add it to the lovely nelson mandela video
<kgoetz> for thos who can download vidoe of course
<btrigg> It is a bit alarmist, but I also think it has the chance to become an "I told you so" topic.
<oldmanstan> we could get it preinstalled with the distro possibly
<btrigg> Yes.  That's the idea.
<btrigg> The "Click Me First" idea is wonderful.
<oldmanstan> it's a balancing act between scaring the crap outta people and informing them
<btrigg> Yes.
<btrigg> Windows just assumes they are stupid.
<btrigg> We are not that.
<btrigg> That's why people like Macs and Linux.  Freedom.
<kgoetz> macs for freedom? bs.
<btrigg> But with freedom come responsibility.  And if someone doesn't say: "Here is one of them.  You can find more here...", then they can be scarred for like.
<kgoetz> but thats an aside
<btrigg> Yes.  But that's a reason whether we like/believe it or not.
<kgoetz> i'll point out that video is huge, and the discs are squeezed for space as is
<btrigg> Flash video?  Should be smaller?
<oldmanstan> or dump the mandela video
<btrigg> Or a Presentation file?
<oldmanstan> ogg videos aren't "huge", the mandela one that we install is only 3.5 mb and it's a minute and a half
<kgoetz> so 3 minutes of video is 1% of the cdrom.
<oldmanstan> like i said, dump the mandela video
 * kgoetz mutters about vim-tiny's presense on the cd. perhaps that carp can go
<btrigg> lol
<oldmanstan> and make it a minute and a half, kind of a "don't do drugs kids" warning thing and our net space on the disc is zero
<oldmanstan> haha
<oldmanstan> even if it wasn't on the cd though, it could still be featured prominantly
<kgoetz> i still think the improving dialges holds merit
<kgoetz> *sp (again :$)
<oldmanstan> i think more people will watch a video than will read a document
<btrigg> Yes.  Like a link to a hosted video on the net somewhere?
<kgoetz> depends where said person is located
<oldmanstan> yeah, it wouldn't have 100% penetration, but it would be something
<btrigg> Subtitles
<kgoetz> (i already have that issue with ubuntu install 'extras')
<oldmanstan> changing the dialogs is definitely a thing to bug people about too though
<btrigg> Agreed.
<oldmanstan> a video could be made easily with minimal bureaucracy though
<btrigg> So how do we get this started on our end?  Write the text?
<oldmanstan> i would talk to the screencast ppl, i'm not sure if they have their own channel, but i know alan pope hangs out in #ubuntu-uk and he's in charge of it
<kgoetz> btrigg: email the mailing list with a proposal
<btrigg> I know a guy who does a GREAT Mandela impersonation...he could read it.  And then we could keep the Mandela aspect and still give the safety warning.  :-)
<oldmanstan> lol
<kgoetz> call it a 'spec' for bonus poits ;)
<btrigg> Just kidding about that.  Sorry.
<btrigg> kgoetz:  Ok, thanks much again!
<oldmanstan> kgoetz: good point, people love "specs"
<kgoetz> oldmanstan: canonicals projects in particular :)
<oldmanstan> fer sure
<btrigg> Make it a business case type spec?  More formal = more consideration?
<oldmanstan> all about the launchpad
<kgoetz> yep.
<somerville32> omg, lmao
 * somerville32 swats btrigg with a fanny of ubuntu cds
<btrigg> :-)
<btrigg> Ok...so I'm a noob dork.
<oldmanstan> honestly i would  informally approach a couple ppl first, and then work on formalizing it
<btrigg> But why smack me?
<oldmanstan> but that's how i like doin stuff
<btrigg> Ok.  And does that work?
<btrigg> brb...bedtime for the nipper.  :-)
<kgoetz> :)
 * kgoetz hands over invoice to employer
<btrigg> back
<btrigg> lol
<btrigg> Ok.  Well thank you everyone for the input, ideas, and advice.  I will take this back to our LoCo and we'll go from there.
<oldmanstan> btrigg: #ubuntu-screencasts
<kgoetz> :) good luck with it
<oldmanstan> if you decide to go that route
<oldmanstan> good luck!
<btrigg> Thanks much again!
<btrigg> Hi FunnyLookinHat
<FunnyLookinHat> howdy
<btrigg> You missed all the good stuff.  :-)
<btrigg> Folks here are awesome.
<oldmanstan> we are, you should get involved in the doc-team btrigg
<oldmanstan> then we could have parties like this all the time! hehehe </plug>
<kgoetz> hehe. talk about shameless :D
<btrigg> lol
<oldmanstan> that's how a roll
<btrigg> I'm in my masters program and time is limited.  What kind of time commitment would we be talking here?
<oldmanstan> not much, i'm doing a masters too and i'm pretty ok (admittedly mine isn't terribly time-consuming)
<kgoetz> i'm not doign masters and i have no time :D
<btrigg> kgoetz: lol
<kgoetz> ;)
<oldmanstan> you basically just edit docbook files (like html on crack)
<btrigg> Cool.  Ok.  Is there a website where I can learn more?
<btrigg> Get an idea of what it's all about, etc?
<oldmanstan> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam
<kgoetz> beat me :|
<oldmanstan> :) i was hurrying cuz i knew you'd be getting it too
<kgoetz> :P hey, good use of competition
<oldmanstan> exactly
<btrigg> lol
<btrigg> Excellent, thanks much!
<btrigg> And if I can swing it, then what?  Come back here and say, "Lay it on me" or what?
<oldmanstan> well hit up https://lists.ubuntu.com
<oldmanstan> and sign up for the ubuntu-doc list
<oldmanstan> actually here it is doc
<oldmanstan> http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-doc
<oldmanstan> there we go
<btrigg> Ok, cool, thanks.
<oldmanstan> and then take a look around at the docs and see what kinds of things you'd like to work on
<oldmanstan> then let everyone know by emailing the list and people either there or here will help you out in getting started
<btrigg> Sweet.  Sounds good.
<kgoetz> and more people with ideas to smack down can only be good :D
<btrigg> lol
<kgoetz> er, discuss :P
<btrigg> Yes.
<oldmanstan> haha
<oldmanstan> if you are at all interested in helping with docs for xubuntu (dunno which distro you use) we are looking for people to help out
<oldmanstan> you don't have to actually use a distro to write docs for it, but it helps
<btrigg> Ok.  I run Ubuntu and have a laptop and backup machine on Kubuntu.
<btrigg> Understood.
<kgoetz> oldmanstan: i'm thinking about 'idot testing' the docs for kubuntu, so i'im happy to do xubuntu too :)
<btrigg> I could pop Xubuntu on the laptop and run all three.
<oldmanstan> go for it kgoetz we can use all the help we can get
<kgoetz> Kamping_Kaiser: ^^ start downloading :)
<oldmanstan> btrigg: well have a look around the docs and see what you'd like to do, it's not urgent or anything
<oldmanstan> there's a docbook tutorial on the wiki also
<btrigg> Ok oldmanstan.  Will do.
<oldmanstan> welcome aboard!
<btrigg> Excellent.  I will peruse that and let you know.  :-)
<btrigg> Thanks!
<oldmanstan> no prob
<werewolf1985> hi
<sommer> hey all, is the development branch of the docs built and served on the web somewhere?  in a draft status or something?
<somerville32> docs.ubuntu.com ?
<sommer> somerville32: doesn't look updated
<somerville32> doc.ubuntu.com ?
<sommer> somerville32: ya, doc.ubuntu.com
<sommer> http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/advanced-topics/C/index.html > Installing Server Applications
<sommer> still points to a ghelp link
<sommer> which I think was an issue with the old Server Guide... before it was merged into the generic folder
<sommer> I could be wrong though
<somerville32> The build is out of date most likely
<somerville32> sommer, file a bug SVP
<sommer> SVP?
<somerville32> please
<sommer> should the bug be filed agains the web site or doc team?
<sommer> I guess I can file it against the web site and subscibe the doc team
<somerville32> sommer, doc-team
#ubuntu-doc 2007-12-01
<ubotu> New bug: #173174 in ubuntu-doc "Apache documentation links out-of-date (2.0 vs 2.2)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/173174
#ubuntu-doc 2007-12-02
<j1mc> hi all - would someone mind taking a quick look at this validation error with me? http://pastebin.com/m1296fa69
<nixternal> j1mc: there is no <sect# id="dualboot"> on the page you are referencing
<nixternal> xref works in books and chapters, but for an article you need to probably use ulink, unless of course you reference the dualboot id in the header...and for some reason, I can't think of how to do that right now
<j1mc> nixternal: thanks.  i'll give ulink a try.
<sommer> nixternal: I think there may be an issue using ulink to reference another chapter, see bug #162794
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 162794 in ubuntu-doc "7.10 serverguide contains broken link to self sign certs" [Undecided,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/162794
<sommer> the links work fine in yelp, but when you build the html they link back to .xml files and not .html, breaking the links
<sommer> j1mc: from what I've found xrefs work fine, but there is the issue with validation.
<nixternal> <ulink type="help" url="path to html">blah</ulink>
<nixternal> in kde, we can do <ulink type="help" url="help:/docname">blah</ulink>
<sommer> nixternal: and it builds okay?
<nixternal> yup
<nixternal> bulding doesn't pay attention to ulink, the only thing wth ulink, is you have to make sure you have the link correct
<sommer> gotcha... do you know if the type="help" works with the regular ubuntu docs?
<sommer> or is that part of kde's help system?
#ubuntu-doc 2008-11-24
<jgoguen> I checked out the Jaunty documentation, ran validate.sh against switching/C/preparing.xml, and it says that linkend references an unknown ID "installing" (line 41) and "installing-get" (line 25), but those IDs exist in switching/C/installing.xml
<jgoguen> How should I fix that?
<kirkland> mdke: got your email ... how long before the help.ubuntu.com site is regenerated?  i wanted to test the no-javascript change
#ubuntu-doc 2008-11-25
<mdke> kirkland: I haven't rebuilt the website without the no javascript change, because I wanted to test that first... I will do so when I next get time, but I'm frantic with work at the moment so don't have that much time for Ubuntu
<mdke> kirkland: s/without/with
<kirkland> mdke: okay, no worries, thanks
<highwaychile> Hi! I'm writing a script that generates a lot of docbook articles out of the German ubuntu wiki (http://wiki.ubuntuusers.de)
<highwaychile> now I'm searching for a way to make this "docbook wiki" searchable by docbook viewers like yelp
<highwaychile> as the ubuntu documentation is
<highwaychile> but I can't find any information on this (the only thing I find is syntax references of docbook)
<highwaychile> may you can help me / give me a link?
#ubuntu-doc 2008-11-27
<wukui> å¤ªå·äº
<garyb> anyone here
<Atamira> reboot
#ubuntu-doc 2009-11-23
<skiquel> DarkwingDuck: love your name :)
<skiquel> i remember that cartoon
<ZachK_> skiquel: hi
<skiquel> howdy
<ZachK_> skiquel: so what's up
<DarkwingDuck> thanks skiquel
<stlsaint> anyone around?
<stlsaint> l8ers all
<stlsaint> starcraftman: ping
<starcraftman> stlsaint: Oui?
 * starcraftman bowls stlsaint over with a torrent of pong balls.
<stlsaint> starcraftman: would you mind taking a look to see if its something wrong on my end... https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KilleenTeam/Meetings#preview
<stlsaint> i got another writer to look at it yesterday but its till messing up today
<starcraftman> fixed
<starcraftman> see comment on info page for why, common problem I've had.
<starcraftman> do put a bit more on your page, seems rather blah.
<stlsaint> starcraftman: :P
<stlsaint> starcraftman: i think all my other wiki pages are lined together as before..hmm oh well, thanks
<stlsaint> starcraftman: and i will be adding more stuff i just needed to fix the headings ;)
<starcraftman> stlsaint: k, enjoy :)
<stlsaint> starcraftman: every now and then my page gets deleted somehow and i lose all my data then later on it all comes back (loco page)
<starcraftman> stlsaint: link to page?
<stlsaint> starcraftman: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KilleenTeam
<starcraftman> hmmm, gone now.
<starcraftman> and you got it saved?
<stlsaint> starcraftman: yes i have been workign on it for some time now
<starcraftman> k, wanna just make blank page and reupload it, I'll look nto that after lunch seems odd.
<stlsaint> starcraftman: no i dont have the wiki saved externally
<starcraftman> well, moment it comes back ya preserve a copy of source.
<stlsaint> right
<stlsaint> starcraftman: got worked out for me
#ubuntu-doc 2009-11-25
<rr72> nixternal~ I am excited for the doc jam, didn't we try and have one of these in the past or am I imagining things?
<Rocket2DMn> hey guys i'm fixing bug 145055 but I'm not sure where to add a link to the HTML page
<ubot4> Launchpad bug 145055 in ubuntu-docs "Group descriptions missing" [Low,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/145055
<Rocket2DMn> should I place it under Advanced Topics, or in the serverguide?
#ubuntu-doc 2009-11-26
<DarkwingDuck> Have you guys transitioned to Mallard yet?
<ebel> Is there any easy way to download all the ubuntu screencasts?
<trijntje> jjesse, are you there?
<trijntje> well, ill just start talking, and hope you read it later ;)
<trijntje> I recently found this (https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-translations/+bug/460352) bugreport about very outdated chapters in kubuntu-docs. I was wondering if that shouldnt include printing as well.
<ubot4> Launchpad bug 460352 in kubuntu-docs "Please update kubuntu-docs translation templates in Launchpad" [Undecided,In progress]
<trijntje> I was trying to follow the instructions in printing and it looks like not one of the programs mentioned there is installed any more. Things like kooka and system-settings-config-printer.
<trijntje> So I was wondering wether printing should be disabled for translation as well. What do you think?
<DarkwingDuck> trijntje: Hey, about the docs. We are currently re-writing the docs for lucid to ensure we have current and complete documentation.
<trijntje> DarkwingDuck, I heard, can you tell how big the rewrite will be?
<DarkwingDuck> total
<DarkwingDuck> hang on a sec...
<trijntje> k
<DarkwingDuck> ok back
<DarkwingDuck> Because of the change to KDE 4 and the amount of bugs/changes in the docs we are reworking them.
<DarkwingDuck> If you would like to help we have a good ToDo list... https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/Documentation/Lucid/Todo
<trijntje> DarkwingDuck, i'm on the dutch translation team. So most of the docs are gonna change for lucid?
<DarkwingDuck> Yes, we are hoping to have all the docs done by X-mas to give you guys plenty of time
<DarkwingDuck> nixternal, jjesse and I have been talking about the translations.
<trijntje> what would you want to see with the translations of the docs for karmic?
<DarkwingDuck> I'll get back to you on that...
<DarkwingDuck> I think nixternal had a plan for the Karmic docs
<DarkwingDuck> I recently jumped onto the project
<trijntje> well I dont know what other translationteams are doing, but we try to fix the errors in the translation and file a bugreport
<DarkwingDuck> Okay, you going to be around for a while? I'll get something to nix and see what his plans were
<trijntje> Ill be online for a few hours, but I can always lurk here
<DarkwingDuck> Okay, I'll let you know when I find anything out.
<trijntje> ok, thanks for your time. Ill see you later
<DarkwingDuck> Anytime
<jugglerbry> hi all
<jugglerbry> i'm trying to take a look at the documentation page via http://doc.ubuntu.com/ but when i'm trying to view the 'Work In Progress' it's throwing up a google page saying the page can't be found, but also says 'for the next release with Ubuntu 8.04 Hardy Heron.
<jugglerbry> is it that either something hasnt been updated, or im looking at the wrong thing ?
<jugglerbry> anyone ?
<jugglerbry> is there really nobody here who can help at all ?
#ubuntu-doc 2009-11-27
<Traveler2> hi
<Traveler2> i want help
<DarkwingDuck> What you need help with?
#ubuntu-doc 2009-11-28
<nhandler> I added a section to the system docs for karmic about adding a PPA to /etc/apt/sources.list. Do you think we should update that section to suggest using add-apt-repository (which lets you do sudo add-apt-repository ppa:nhandler/ppa), which also takes care of downloading the key for the PPA
#ubuntu-doc 2009-11-29
<paddy_melon> can anyone get me a dump in XML of the Ubuntu wiki?
<paddy_melon> is that possible?
<paddy_melon> like the dumps of Wikipedia?
<paddy_melon> Any ideas?
<paddy_melon> Anyone?
<paddy_melon> can anyone get me a dump in XML of the Ubuntu wiki?
<paddy_melon>  is that possible?
<paddy_melon>  like the dumps of Wikipedia?
<paddy_melon> come on guys
<nigel_nb> paddy_melon: I'm not sure I understand what you want
<nigel_nb> but the best course of action would be ask in the mailing list
<paddy_melon> nigel_nb... I want to sort of... mirror the wiki of Ubuntu
<paddy_melon> and need the XML dump
<paddy_melon> if I have an OP or admin of the wiki, they can do it in one click
<nigel_nb> I have no clue how its done, but if its of any help, we use moinmoin, you could search with that
<paddy_melon> I just need an admin/op on the site... r u an admin or op?
<nigel_nb> nope
<nigel_nb> I'm just a contributor
<nigel_nb> thats why I said you'd have bettter luck asking in the mailing list
<paddy_melon> ok
<paddy_melon> thanks
<nigel_nb> paddy_melon: no problem :)
<ebel> is there anyway to download the ubuntu wiki?
<nhandler> I added a section to the system docs for karmic about adding a PPA to /etc/apt/sources.list. Do you think we should update that section to suggest using
<nhandler> I added a section to the system docs for karmic about adding a PPA to /etc/apt/sources.list. Do you think we should update that section to suggest using
<nhandler>                      add-apt-repository (which lets you do sudo add-apt-repository ppa:nhandler/ppa), which also takes care of downloading the key for the PPA
<nhandler> (sorry, failed copy/paste)
<Rocket2DMn> nhandler, any changes like that should go into lucid docs
<Rocket2DMn> nhandler, also, unless it's targeted for the serverguide, it may be better to explain how to do it from Software Sources rather than CLI
<nhandler> Rocket2DMn: Yeah, it would be for lucid docs. And the issue with Software Sources is that it doesn't fetch the GPG Key. I also think there is an explanation right above my section talking about that. My section was specifically for PPAs, where add-apt-repository is the easiest and most efficient option
<Rocket2DMn> yeah nhandler , i think you have to add it explicitly from Authentication
<Rocket2DMn> Anybody seen mdke recently?
#ubuntu-doc 2010-12-01
<dracaen> This channel sure is lively... :p
<geekosopher> hi
#ubuntu-doc 2011-11-28
<pmatulis> mdke: around?
<mdke> pmatulis: (In case I'm not around at the moment, please provide a bit of information about what you want and I will respond when I get back)
#ubuntu-doc 2011-11-29
<Atamira> morning
#ubuntu-doc 2012-11-26
<Nate___> I just noticed that a great tip was buried way at the end of https://help.ubuntu.com/community/DefaultFileManager and I thought it'd be helpful for new users to move it to the top. The page says it's immutable - is that actually the case, or is it because my account is brand new?
#ubuntu-doc 2013-11-28
<bkerensa> Happy Thanksgiving :)
<belkinsa> Thank you, same to you.
#ubuntu-doc 2013-11-29
<phillw> pleia2: I did not understand that statement, just saw the rename of you on #lubuntu-offtopic :)
<phillw> pleia2: ahh, thanks!
<belkinsa> All: We now have a "workflow of the Doc Team" page ready to be reviewed: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/phillw/temp_Manual  Most of the stuff was written by phillw and the others.  I added the Community Wiki Stuff.
<phillw> belkinsa: that area was kept as it had the edit history. IIRC, it was copied out to the 'official' wiki area?
<belkinsa> Oh, sorry.
 * phillw goes dig email history....
<belkinsa> I only added the Community Wiki stuff but didn't make any other changes.
<belkinsa> But I added a comment where those addtions are added.
<belkinsa> Then does it mean that is there is a official page of the workflow?
<phillw> belkinsa: the transfer should be at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/GettingStarted
<belkinsa> Thanks, but I think that page is better then the one you linked.
<belkinsa> Wait, it's the system doc one
<belkinsa> Never mind.
<phillw> belkinsa: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/UbuntuDesktopGuide
<belkinsa> I guess I could work on a main page that can link all of the tools that we have.
<belkinsa> And call it the "Workflow" page
<belkinsa> So everything is in one place.
<phillw> belkinsa: the page name I created was incorrect, as it had manual in the title. It was edited and then transferred over. That sandbox area was kept purely for edit history.
<belkinsa> Oh, I see.
<belkinsa> You know what?  I think we might be only missing the sandbox wiki page guide.
<belkinsa> Never mind again.  I'm now lost on what I said a while back and why I made that action item on the blueprint.
<phillw> belkinsa: have a read through the email archive for the conversation that we had and what was discussed
<belkinsa> Isn't this one: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2013-September/017759.html
<belkinsa> Wait no
<belkinsa> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2013-September/017762.html
<phillw> belkinsa: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2013-September/017615.html
<phillw> belkinsa: My memory is fuzzy, but the doc wiki was copied over from my sandbox area.
<belkinsa> I see and sorry for making changes to that other page, I forgot that was your sandbox page
<phillw> belkinsa: apologies are never needed! It was a fear that my keeping the history page would cause some one to go and edit it :(
<phillw> I'll put a tag on it now.
<belkinsa> Okay.
<belkinsa> I guess I only need to make just one page for the sandbox wiki pages to explain them.
<belkinsa> And maybe one one the Offline wiki, if anyone uses that method.
<phillw> belkinsa: it is the system doc one! That is where it got moved to :D
<belkinsa> I know, I'm taking about something else.
<phillw> belkinsa: stop confusing me :P
<belkinsa> Sorry.
<phillw> np.
<belkinsa> There, I said sorry over the mailing list.
<phillw> belkinsa: it was one of my "stop discussing and actually do" moments. Several people were discussing how the page could be improved on. So, me being me, I took a copy of it to my area as a sandbox. There is never a need to apologise to me :D
<belkinsa> Okay, it's just a bad habit that I have.  I say sorry too much.
<phillw> belkinsa: It is because I call things clearly that I have had to resign from being ubuntu member. I call a spade a spade, a shovel a shovel and when some one messes up..... I will state my views quite clearly. As to if I ever hold a grudge? when they put me together, they missed that part out. I could not hold a grudge if my life depended upon it.
<phillw> but, this is offtopic... chat in #phillw
<belkinsa> Yeah.
#ubuntu-doc 2013-12-01
<melodie> hi
<belkinsa> Hello
<melodie> hi belkinsa!
<melodie> aren't you everywhere? :)
<melodie> I have a question for the ubuntu-doc people, does anyone know if a documentation is or will be available related to debian-cd? I have read this question here: https://answers.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/debian-cd/+question/240037 and I would also be interested about a possible answer
<pleia2> I don't think the developers have published the actual process they use to spin up the official isos
<pleia2> it's a good question for #ubuntu-devel
<pleia2> most of the docs we work on are more user facing "how to use ubuntu" types, not so much "how the developers spin things up"
#ubuntu-doc 2017-11-28
<overfl0w_> hey
<overfl0w_> how you guys doing?
<overfl0w_> I'm from the GCI (Google Code-In), the name is Damian.
<degville> hello overfl0w_! Welcome to the channel!
<davidcalle> Hi overfl0w_
#ubuntu-doc 2017-11-29
<aden_> hey
<aden_> I was told to say hi to evilnick, degville, pmatulis and davidcalle
<JohnZ> hey
<JohnZ> documentation team
<aden_> hi!
<aden_> oh wait sry
<aden_> thought u were saying u were from the dev team
<degville> Hello aden_ and JohnZ! Welcome to the channel!
<aden_> thanks degville!
<davidcalle> Hi JohnZ and aden_, thanks for joining!
<aden_> davidcalle: ^^
<Sheru> JOIN
<aden_> hey I have a question
<davidcalle> aden_: sure!
<aden_> davidcalle: If i were to take this task (https://codein.withgoogle.com/tasks/6636386289451008/?sp-organization=5133577048031232&sp-is_beginner=False) do I need a web server and domain myself or is it provided?
<davidcalle> aden_: as far as I know, you would have to provide them yourself
<aden_> alright, also do i use my real name as the author or my nickname (Aden)?
<aden_> davidcelle: ^ (sry forgot to tag ya)
<degville> aden_: It's a good question, but yeah, davidcalle is right. The domain name in the tutorial can be invented, but to test/write the instructions it would be good to setup your own server with a domain name and get SSL working.
<aden_> alright davidcalle and degville. thanks!
<davidcalle> aden_: that's your call, only requirement is that the email address is correct, as we plan on doing regular emails to published tutorials writers (eg. after an Ubuntu release), for them to check if they need to update their tutorials
<aden_> davidcalle: alright I'll be sure to fill in my email thanks again!
<davidcalle> np, thank you!
<aden_> glad to be in this with chat with ya'll today ^^
<davidcalle> :)
<degville> thanks for taking part aden_!
<aden_> thanks you both for helping me out
<Vill> hi I'm Beginner
<davidcalle> Hi Vill
<davidcalle> ...and welcome :)
<Vill> how I need to do? :D
<davidcalle> Vill: have you picked a task?
<Madhav> Hii Documentation team!! (Evilnick, Degville, Pmatulis, David Calle)
<degville> Hello Madhav!
<sanskarjain> hi
<davidcalle> Hi Madhav and sanskarjain, welcome!
<sanskarjain> thanks
<sanskarjain> hi
<sanskarjain> hi
<ghifari> hi evilnick degville pmatulis and davidcalle
<davidcalle> Hi ghifari, welcome :)
<degville> hello ghifari! Welcome * 2 :)
<ghifari> Thnk you, I'm so glad to be in this channel
<Dmitriy> Hi
<Dmitriy> evilnick, degville, pmatulis and davidcalle
<degville> Hello Dmitriy! Welcome to the channel!
<davidcalle> Hi there o/
<sbradbury> hi
#ubuntu-doc 2017-11-30
<Andy___> Hello?
<Azhan> Hello
<Vedant> Hi
<Vedant> I am Vedant Kotkar
<Vedant> Currently learning web development & digital marketing
<degville> Hello Vedant! Welcome to the channel.
<aden_> good evening! I have a question here: If I find some texts that might be useful from others sites may I quote it in the tutorial?
<aden_> other*
<davidcalle> aden_: as long as you don't plagiarise, sure. You can link to them in a "Learn more" section at the end.
<aden_> davidcalle: alright ill keep that in mind, thanks!
<davidcalle> aden_: you may want to check if you pushed the right branch here https://github.com/canonical-websites/tutorials.ubuntu.com/pull/515 :)
<aden_> davidcalle: I had the tutorial pushed to a wrong branch (not sure where I'm still trying to figure that out). I'm still new to github but I'll make sure all the required files are there before opening a pull request next time. Thanks for tagging me!
<Azhan> cool stuff
<davidcalle> Hello Azhan and welcome
<sanskarjain123> hi
<sanskarjain123> hello
<sanskarjain123_> hi
<davidcalle> sanskarjain123_: hi and welcome o/
<sanskarjain123_> thanks
<davidcalle> The channel is fairly quiet, but feel free to ask for help in your tasks if you are blocked in any way
<sanskarjain123_> i cannot read the ubuntu tutorials
<sanskarjain123_> can u help me
<davidcalle> sanskarjain123_: why can't you read them?
<sanskarjain123_> it is not opening
<davidcalle> Nothing appears when you click on on a tutorial on https://tutorials.ubuntu.com ?
<sanskarjain123_> can u help me in other task
<sanskarjain123_> yes
<davidcalle> What browser are you using?
<sanskarjain123_> chrome\
<davidcalle> That's weird, do you see something on this link: https://tutorials.ubuntu.com/tutorial/snap-a-website ?
<sanskarjain123_> yes
<sanskarjain123_> thanks
#ubuntu-doc 2017-12-01
<garry_> hi!!   evilnick, degville, pmatulis and davidcalle
<degville> Hello garry_!
<davidcalle> Hi garry_, welcome!
<Nbill> hi
<degville> hello Nbill! Welcome to the channel!
<Nbill> thank you
<davidcalle> Hello o/
<Nick2018> Hello!
<Harsh> hii!
<Guest35012> Hi
<davidcalle> Hi Guest35012  o/
<Guest35012> HI!
#ubuntu-doc 2017-12-02
<edwin_> hi
<Guest46328> git clone https://github.com/canonical-websites/tutorials.ubuntu.com.git
<Guest46328> ls
<squishy123> Hi
<squishy123> I'm a student trying out the google code-in
<squishy123> any tips for writing tutorials in markdown?
#ubuntu-doc 2017-12-03
<ksun> hi documentation team!
<sj_> hi documentation team
<Krystian> hi!
<Mubashir> hi
<Mubashir> hi evilneck
<Mubashir> hi evilneck, degville, pmatulis and davidcalle
<Nauman> Hi
