#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-11-17
<scott-work> persia: do you have time for a short pm?
<scott-work> i don't believe we are currently shipping module-jack-sink
<scott-work> does anyone have an opinion if we should?
#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-11-18
<ScottL> abogani, is a patch required when compiling the -lowlatency kernel?
<TheMuso> ScottL: For what?
<ScottL> TheMuso, i am presuming you meant why do we need a patch to compile the -lowlatency kernel?
<TheMuso> ScottL: I meant for what, in terms of configs/features? The plan is that we shouldn't need anything other than differing configs compared to the mainline Ubuntu kernels.
<ScottL> TheMuso, exactly, that was my understanding as well, JFo had mentioned that someone told him that the -lowlatency and -preempt kernels still needed invasive patching, much like i expect the -rt kernel
<ScottL> perhaps the person JFo was discussing this with was planning on including other features?
<ScottL> oh, TheMuso, would you mind reviewing some seed changes if i push them?  they are a bit pervasive, so it may take some time to review it
<stochastic> ScottL, yes we should ship module-jack-sink
<ScottL> stochastic, do you know if it is stable?  will this allow us to route audio stream through jack and vise versa?
<stochastic> I last used it in 10.04 on occasion and found it to be slightly unreliable, but yes, audio can be routed through Jack with this module enabled.
<stochastic> it'd be nice to include this module as a on/off switch in Ubuntu Studio Controls
<ScottL> stochastic, do you feel like coding it in python perhaps?  that would be pretty awesoem
<ScottL> s/awesoem/awesome
<stochastic> ScottL, possibly
<ScottL> stochastic, do you think also you might be able to fix the changes to the limits.conf file, where jack now sets the rtprio in the other file?
<stochastic> probably not - I don't even know what the current system uses
 * stochastic has fallen out of date with development and is still running 10.04
 * stochastic is also working 65+ hours a week in a kitchen (far from a computer) leaving little time to sleep let alone get back into the swing of things
<stochastic> ScottL, another suggestion - don't know how tricky this would be, but could we change the homepage of firefox to be either ubuntustudio.org or the community documentation homepage?  I've read a number of users stating that there is not enough initial tutorials available for people who first boot into the OS.
<ScottL> stochastic, good suggestion, which ties into something someone else mentioned today
<ScottL> they talking about including some tutorial videos on the image, which i thought was bloody brilliant
<ScottL> although i'm unsure how to set firefox's homepage
<TheMuso> ScottL: You did tell them that they would have to get those videos into the archive right?
<TheMuso> ScottL: Maybe later, rather busy atm.
<TheMuso> re seeds.
<ScottL> TheMuso, no to the former, although i am aware of the requirement
<TheMuso> Ok.
<ScottL> but example content is included in vanilla ubuntu so it's not unheard of
<TheMuso> Right.
<ScottL> TheMuso, re: seeds, that's okay, i'm hoping to get persia to do it soon (i should have had it done already)
<stochastic> ScottL, I googled it quickly and found a thing about adjusting a deb package to set the homepage (though a launcher thrown onto the desktop that runs "firefox http://pathToDocs" would also suffice)
<ScottL> stochastic, lol, i was typing the "launcher on desktop" when you typed that :)
<ScottL> that could be included in an existing package like -settings or something else i guess
<stochastic> exactly, only problem with that might be that it's a bit hacky
<ScottL> very true, i'll look at google for this later (couple of weeks probably) after i finish some other tasks
<stochastic> actually ScottL, the more I think about it, there's nothing terribly hacky about putting a "help" launcher on the desktop and the settings package would be the perfect place for it
<stochastic> though if networking is broken out of the box, then pointing to a http location would not be so elegant
<ScottL> lol, very true stochastic  :P
<ScottL> i'm tempted to put network manager back into the seeds though, the "fix' for network-admin apparently isn't quite desirable as could be expected for users :(
<stochastic> personally I'm fine with network manager - I've always installed it right after first boot on my machines
<holstein> personally, i think the pro audio guys that would be worried about it
<holstein> would know how to get rid of it
<holstein> and the other guys just loading up UbStu have the hardest time with it
<stochastic> ^ totally agree.  Those who are serious about NEEDING the cpu power that network manager consumes (hardly any) are generally not booting Ubuntu anyway.
<ScottL> you two have convinced me, i'll update the seeds :)
<stochastic> ScottL, also - I don't have time or the exact expertise, but I think the topic on the workflow about "Sequence music using MIDI" should be split up a bit - it's kind of like saying "Create graphics with a mouse"
<stochastic> In my opinion, there should be separate workflows for things like "create a bass line" or "play a synth pad", etc... and the best soft synths should be narrowed down that way
<ScottL> stochastic, i agree with you, but, alas, i don't have the expertise either, although i'll ask the guy who made it if he could expand on it a bit, good suggestion :)
<stochastic> holstein are you familiar with these workflows ^^
<holstein> not enough to be helpful :/
<abogani> ScottL: No. The lowlatency kernel don't require any patch at the moment (it could change in the future) .
<ScottL> stochastic, it was a friend of mine and holstein's who did the workflows of which you speak, his name is [lsd] from #opensourcemusicians
<ScottL> abogani, thank you for the answer :)
<abogani> ScottL: You are welcome :-)
<scott-work> persia:  are you around?
<persia> I am.
<scott-work> persia: do you mind if we pm for a moment?
<persia> You may always /query me without asking or invitation (although I can't promise any specific response time).  Now is OK for me.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-11-19
<TheMuso> abogani: I really need to try and find some time to take a look at the low latency kernel, and see about getting it into natty.
<ScottL> TheMuso, someone is supposed to prepare a procedure for doing that
<ScottL> from the kernel team, hold on, i'll see if i can find who, just gotta look
<ScottL> ah yes, TheMuso , apw is supposed to make a procedure to get kernel variants into the archives
<ScottL> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-version-and-flavours
<ScottL> i'm feeling antsy about this
<TheMuso> ah ok.
 * ScottL wants to keep telling people, "we're running out of time people, we're running out of time"
<TheMuso> Heh.
<ScottL> i have so far managed not to do it ;)
<ScottL> i believe persia expects something within the next week or so
<TheMuso> ok
<persia> Rather, I have been asked to notify someone able to escalate the issue within Canonical if there remains nothing the week past next.  Next week is expected to be slower, as both the person asking me to watch the specification and the person to whom they would escalate are expected to be distracted by the Thanksgiving holiday.
<ScottL> persia, it appears that gdebi is bringing in phonon...seems very strange
<ScottL> however, i got interrupted as i was working on this by my kids fighting so i need to go back upstairs and confirm
<scott__> scott@lucid-studio:~$ aptitude why phonon
<scott__> i   gdebi-kde   Depends python-kde4 (>= 3.16.0-0ubuntu11)
<scott__> i A python-kde4 Depends phonon (>= 4:4.5.2)      
<scott__> that's the output
<scott__> i was going to grep the seeds and see where this is coming in
<scott__> and it appears that the dekstop seed is adding gdebi on line 104
<scott__> very strange that including gdebi works itself into including phonon into ubuntustudio :/
<scott__> hmmm, it would also appear that wacom-tools package is not in the repos anymore
<scott__> ack, silly me, actually it's the 'install-package' package that is pulling in gdebi-kde
<scott__> bleargh, i can't figure it out, it all looks like one big circular dependency at this point
<ScottL> hi paultag
<persia> ScottL, Find out what pulls gdebi-kde: it may be possible to pull gdebi instead (the GNOME GUI), and still satisfy the dependencies without pulling phonon.
<paultag> good evening there ScottL 
<scott__> persia, it seems circular according to 'aptitude why gdebi-kde'
<scott__> it depends on phyton-kde4
<scott__> which depends on kdebase-runtime
<scott__> which *recommends* kubuntu-debug-installer
<scott__> which depends on kpackagekit
<scott__> which depends on software-properties-kde
<scott__> which depends on install-package
<scott__> which depends on gdebi-kde
<scott__> my brain hurts
<TheMuso> Afaik gdebi is going away, adn the software centre will manage deb installs from now on IIRC.
<persia> ScottL, There's probably an entry into the circularity somewhere which could be diverted with either a package change or an alternate seeding.
<persia> (finding it is tricky)
<persia> I suspect the path is something like dssi-vst -> wine1.2 -> kdebase-runtime
<persia> Once we have kdebase-runtime, keeping KDE out gets hard.
<persia> (another potential path is lmms-vst -> wine1.2 -> kdebase-runtime)
<persia> If my guess is correct, it can be short-circuited with seeding of gnome-exe-thumbnailer, but there may be another path (and one wonders if VST is important enough to justify shipping WINE)
<scott__> lmms-vst is not installed
<persia> If Studio ships software-center, it is probably easier to not ship gdebi, and let software-center handle it.
<scott__> software-center was not being installed because of a name change (ubuntu-software-center -> software-center)
<scott__> howerver, i have updated the seeds for that
<persia> And you re-ran germinate, and the meta is still pulling phonon?
<scott__> i haven't re-run anything tonight, nor pushed to bzr yet
<scott__> i was hoping to track down some of this to try to fix it before doing that
<scott__> however, i will be able to do so tomorrow night
<persia> I suspect it's the software-center rename that caused the issue.
<persia> Because software-center wasn't present, germinate grabbed alternate stuff, and ended up pulling the KDE software management stack.
<scott__> looking in synaptic for anything kde and seeing what is installed is kinda depressing :P
<scott__> it would certainly be worth correcting
<persia> My recommendation when working with seeds is to make one small change, and then reinvestigate after a germinate run.
<persia> Trying to fix several issues at the same time usually leads to confusion and extra work, although I know it feels more satisfying for most other sorts of work.
<persia> But the output of seeds is, essentially, installed systems: it's hard to know precisely what the result of the change is without having the new output to check.
<persia> Same as if you're debugging the simple "#! /bin/sh\necho Hello Wolrd\n", it's easier to see the bug in the output than in the input, and it's worth testing (although it's *lots* easier to test the shell script)
<ScottL> right, i'm stopping for tonight, i'll see about pushing to bzr later tonight though
<ScottL> persia, TheMuso , changes pushed to bzr
<ScottL> https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntu-seeds/ubuntustudio.natty
<ScottL> check it as you will and tomorrow i'll see about updating the meta package
<persia> ScottL, Thanks for the alert: I'll take a look in a few hours.  Note that the tasks will be updating automatically, so the next image run ought reflect a mix of the old and new.
<TheMuso> ScottL: Worth noting that your seed changes broke the build. :)
<TheMuso> I'll see if I can find some time on the weekend to look them over.
<ScottL> TheMuso, oh goodie :P
<ScottL> TheMuso, i should have the meta updated and hopefully that will fix it no?
<ScottL> quadrispro,  i believe phasex is in debian from  http://www.sysex.net/phasex/
<ScottL> but, my understanding is that development has stagnated
<quadrispro> ehy ScottL, yes it is from sysex.net
<ScottL> quadrispro, however, there is a development branch here that seems to be fairly active http://disabled.github.com/phasex-dev/
<ScottL> although the word "disbaled" in the URL is a little bothersome
<ScottL> but they've added lashd support among other things, so it at least seems to be more current that the sysex.net code, no?
<quadrispro> just a moment, I'm fixing a bug in flake, getting back soon
<ScottL> quadrispro, no rush, just wanted to pass on the information that i ran across
 * ScottL is leaving for work, be on as scott-work in ~ 30 minutes
<TheMuso> ScottL: no
<TheMuso> ScottL: It appears you didn't get the syntax right somewhere, but I would need to look to be sure.
<TheMuso> And I am aobut to go to bed.
<quadrispro> scott-work, well, it seems up-to-date
<scott-work> TheMuso: then i suppose i shouldn't rush to update the metapackage then
<scott-work> quadrispro:  are you saying that the code in debian and the code for phasex-dev are the same?
<quadrispro> no, just phasex-dev is the real upstream now
<quadrispro> and I should get the code from that new source
<scott-work> oh good :)
<quadrispro> I'm working on an upload to experimental right now
<scott-work> wow!  you move fast :P
<quadrispro> :)
<scott-work> it took me several weeks to only update that seeds, and i apparently still managed to break it :/
<quadrispro> scott-work, ah! what's the problem with lmms? I've read on a cd-health check that uninstallable binaries get built :/
<scott-work> quadrispro: i don't know...to be honest, i hadn't really looked until now
 * scott-work had changed some gmail settings and some studio emails goes to a folder i'm not used to looking at
<scott-work> yet
<quadrispro> ok
<quadrispro> 0.12.0+m1 seems a good versioning...
<quadrispro> mmm
<scott-work> quadrispro: it looks like lmms did build https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/natty/+source/lmms/+builds
<scott-work> or at least build without any obvious errors
<quadrispro> in fact, I've uploaded it some days ago
<scott-work> the log didn't seem to show anything untoward either, again at least in an obvious manner
<quadrispro> scott-work, argh... upstream has included a debian/ dir!
<scott-work> quadrispro:  is that bad because you didn't expect it or because they did it wrong?
<quadrispro> 1) I didn't expect it
<quadrispro> 2) they did wrong
<quadrispro> :)
<quadrispro> btw, it is not a real issue, maybe the new upstream doesn't know that the package is already available in Debian/Ubuntu
<scott-work> but isn't _everything_ available in debian? ;)
<quadrispro> almost everything :)
<scott-work> ahck, puttoi
<scott-work> i'm doing work here at work setting up standards
<scott-work> because it hasn't been updated in almost fifteen years
<scott-work> and now i'm dealing with this office and another remote office that does things completely different
<scott-work> and it's been a very, very frustrating three months or so :(
<scott-work> standards for the drafting/detailing/designer department, i should say
<scott-work> and since this industry is so singular, there aren't really any industry standards to leverage
<scott-work> so i'm also fighting a cultural momentum because "this is the way we've done stuff for years"
<scott-work> at least i manage to get them to install mediawiki and mysql on the servers though :)
<scott-work> yay for open source
<quadrispro> "this is the way we've done stuff for years" -> this reminds me.... mmmm... oh yes, my country
<scott-work> lol, but i will bend everyone to my will <insert evil laughter>
<scott-work> i jest, but i *can* make this happen, but it just takes enormous amounts of continual effort
<scott-work> but there is a certain amount of subduction where getting fabricated parts out the door and making money is more pressing and all these improvements get set to the side, which makes it hard to maintain momentum sometimes :/
<quadrispro> sure, I understand
<scott-work> but i'm done venting and i feel much better now :)
<scott-work> boy i hope that the.muse can sort the seeds, i feel really, really bad about that ;(
<scott-work> the email i saw that that my revision "wasn't a branch"
<quadrispro> so we should wait for luke to fix it 
 * quadrispro has built phasex fine
<scott-work> quadrispro:  i think luke still feels slightly responsible (being one of the most knowledgeable about the project) but it would be groovy if anyone fixed it
<scott-work> just as long as its fixed :)
<quadrispro> sure
<quadrispro> scott-work, phasex has too many beautiful presets
<scott-work> quadrispro:  were you referring to the seeds getting fixed?
<scott-work> quadrispro:  i haven't really played with phasex, i'm not much of a synthesizer guy, although i've played a bit following some youtube tutorials
<quadrispro> no no, I'm about to upload phasex now :) so I'm having some testing on it, and I find it wonderful
<scott-work> you know that wasn't included in ubuntustudio until someone on  #opensourcemusicians told me about it
<scott-work> that's the same place where i found out about the phasex-dev
<quadrispro> ahh
<quadrispro> scott-work, have you read my "bits from multimedia team" post?
<scott-work> i have kept up with some of the emails, but i haven't seen your post specifically
 * scott-work had changed several gmail settings to avoid inbox with certain email and i'm still not into a routine of checking certain folders now
<scott-work> however, i will go look now :)
<quadrispro> scott-work, it appeared on planet.ubuntu.com, I think
<scott-work> quadrispro: did free post in that thread as well?
<quadrispro> free?
<scott-work> free ekannayaka
<quadrispro> Ah yes, my friend free :) yep, it mailed me (and the team) about something related to fusd-kor or old Demudi packages
<scott-work> ah, i found it here quickly with google: http://swik.net/Ubuntu/Planet+Ubuntu/Alessio+Treglia%3A+Bits+from+the+Debian+Multimedia+Maintainers/euixn
<quadrispro> http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2010/11/msg00005.html
<quadrispro> yep
<scott-work> quadrispro:  what's you thoughts on jack sessions vs. lashd?
<quadrispro> first point: lashd is abandoned
<scott-work> doh, we were just pushing it into studio :/
<quadrispro> so, we should have more and more testing on JACK-session feature before releasing any *stable*-stuff providing it
<scott-work> argh, it is so frustrating sometimes being lead when i am sooo ignorant about stuff :(
<quadrispro> scott-work, abandoned, but well-made and enough reliable to land to the next Debian stable
<scott-work> well, okay...but i still feel like i'm groping in the dark sometimes
<quadrispro> ah lol
<quadrispro> :)
<quadrispro> scott-work, nobody knows everything :)
<scott-work> i think towards the end of the natty cycle i'm going to take a month off from studio and do two things:
<scott-work> 1) record some freaking music, it's been way too long
<scott-work> 2) maybe make a fit-on-cd, live distribution based on ubuntu for audio recording/tone generation
<quadrispro> 1) good
<quadrispro> 2) good :)
<scott-work> i would like to see just what can fit on a cd and be viable
<scott-work> plus if i can work up some tutorial videos to include with it?  that would be a pretty cool tool to give peopel
<scott-work> think of it as a "business card" of sorts to introduce ubuntu studio to people
<scott-work> i'll remove pulse and do it simply by using remastersys
<scott-work> oh, "do it" means make the ISO, not remove pulse
<quadrispro> I'd like to help you in making tutorials,screencast etc, I hope to find the time
<scott-work> just to be pedantic, i'm using blender to make them ;)
<scott-work> people tend to shun blender because it is intimidating, but it really rocks
<scott-work> notklattu from #openpodcast wrote a very simplistic, direct, but thoroughly explantive tutorial for using blender for video
<scott-work> i think of blender for video editing like CLI
<scott-work> all the power is there is you know which key to press
<quadrispro> eh sure
<quadrispro> i have never used blender :/
<quadrispro> but I will take a look at it some day
<quadrispro> scott-work, "Processing of phasex_0.12.0+m1-1_amd64.changes"
<quadrispro> will join the archives in the next few minutes
<scott-work> quadrispro: yay, thank you quadrispro, you are a HUGE help and i really don't have a clue how we would have made such progress without you
<quadrispro> sorry, I'm back
<quadrispro> :) thank you, but I've just given my contribution
<quadrispro> guys, I have to leave
<quadrispro> see you later1
<quadrispro> !
<quadrispro> bye scott-work !
<scott-work> bye quadrispro
<TheMuso> scott-work: If someone hasn't looked at the seeds already, I'll take a peak.
<TheMuso> Oh Colin fixed it up.
<scott-work> TheMuso: that's sort of bitter sweet because I wanted to learn what the problem was, however i am glad it is fixed
<TheMuso> scott-work: Just look at the latest revision of the repo.
<scott-work> heh, was doing that
<scott-work> TheMuso: and i also did a facepalm when i saw the change!
<TheMuso> heh
<scott-work> i can't believe i didn't do that :/   it's so bleedin' obvious now
<TheMuso> Yeah.
<TheMuso> I might take a look at lmms in any case.
<TheMuso> See hy its broken.
<TheMuso> why
<scott-work> quadrispro said he fixed it and uploaded already
<TheMuso> oh ok then great.
<scott-work> said that upstream added a /debian directory thathe didn't expect plus they did it wrong :P
<TheMuso> heh right.
<scott-work> hopefully tomorrow we can look at the logs and see if the kde packages are gone :)
<scott-work> and i should also update the meta package tonight or earlly tomorrow morning
<scott-work> per.sia said for me to create a debdiff, report a bug, attach the debdiff, and subscribe him to the bug for updating the metapackage
<scott-work> TheMuso: oh, i should wait until the seeds re-germinate before i try to ./update the metapackage, shouldn't i?
<TheMuso> scott-work: No, once your changes are in bzr, you can go straight ahead with the metapackage.
<TheMuso> scott-work: What changes do you need to make to the metapackage, or is it just a refresh?
<scott-work> TheMuso: but then i shouldn't use 'apt-get source ubuntustudio-meta' to get my code
<scott-work> TheMuso: just a refresh
<TheMuso> scott-work: ubuntustudio-meta is not in bzr.
<TheMuso> scott-work: To get a fresh copy of ubuntustudio-meta use apt-get source in natty.
<TheMuso> scott-work: If its just a refresh, then I am happy to take care of it for you, unless you really want the experience of doing it for yourself.
<scott-work> TheMuso: "ubuntustudio-meta is not in bzr" when per.sia was walking through this before, this was a question/answer area that apparently got confused
<scott-work> ultimate i used apt-get source because i'm more familiar with it anyways
<TheMuso> Right
<scott-work> TheMuso: but also i need to udpate the control file to make an 'ubuntustudio-audio' transition package since we are removing the audio seed, at least until the next LTS version
<TheMuso> Ok.
<TheMuso> So its not just a refres.
<TheMuso> not just a refresh
<scott-work> yes, that is correct, which i realized after i reference my notes
<scott-work> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Sandbox#Update%20ubuntustudio-meta
<TheMuso> ok
<TheMuso> scott-work: When you have things complete, feel free to ping me also with the bug, and I am happy to attend to it if nobody else has by that time.
<TheMuso> i.e when I see the bug number.
<scott-work> TheMuso:  so tonight i can complete my natty install (from a previously downloaded daily image), apt-get source, moderate the control file, and ./update, even though the seeds have not regerminated?
<TheMuso> scott-work: Seed germination for the disk build is different to germination for the metapackage update.
<TheMuso> Or should I say, independant of each other.
<TheMuso> So germination of the seeds for the disk build is not required to update the metapackage. Once you update bzr, you can update the metapackage as soon as your bzr changes are pushed.
<scott-work> but the ./update will read the seeds, correct?
<scott-work> so as long as bzr is current it will be okay?
<TheMuso> Yes.
<scott-work> cool :)   i'm starting get it sorted in my head
<scott-work> the seeds in bzr control both, and both are independent of each other...seems straightforward now
<TheMuso> Yep.
<TheMuso> But germinating the seeds on the build pulls in teh binary packages built from the source metapackage.
<TheMuso> So thats why the metapackage names have to be mentioned in their own seed file.
<scott-work> TheMuso: just to make you aware, i replace gnome-network-admin with network-manager-gnome in the seeds
<TheMuso> Oh ok.
<TheMuso> Its not up to me, but why?
<scott-work> chris coulsan made a patch so that connection tab was available in network-admin, but users were still complaining that it was very tedious and difficult to make network connections that were not wired to DHCP
<scott-work> TheMuso:  it appears that the package "xorg-driver-fglrx" was a transition package: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/fglrx-installer/2:8.723.1-0ubuntu5
<scott-work> should we ship the package "fglrx" instead?
<scott-work> xorg-driver-fglrx was included in the ship seed
<TheMuso> Yes, if its a transition package, we should change to the new package.
<TheMuso> bbs breakfast.
<scott-work> i will note that for a later update
<TheMuso> back
<scott-work> thank you for your help TheMuso, i appreciate it
<TheMuso> np
#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-11-20
<ScottL> TheMuso, persia: just to keep you informed, i tried to germinate but it had trouble finding a bzr branch
<ScottL> turns out the build failed last night because of a rogue 'audio' seed being listed
<ScottL> colin has already fixed that one, but i am going to grep the rest of the seeds to make sure no more 'audio' seeds are left to break the build
<ScottL> on the morrow i will try to ./update again
<ScottL> this was the error i got:
<ScottL> * Fetching branch of http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntu-seeds/ubuntustudio.natty/
<ScottL> sh: bzr: not found
<ScottL> * Fetching branch of http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-dev/ubuntu-seeds/ubuntustudio.natty/
<ScottL> sh: bzr: not found
<ScottL> ! Could not open STRUCTURE from checkout of (any of):
<ubottu> Error: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :)
<ScottL> !   http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntu-seeds/ubuntustudio.natty
<ScottL> !   http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-dev/ubuntu-seeds/ubuntustudio.natt
<TheMuso> I'll have a look.
<TheMuso> At the metapackage.
<TheMuso> ScottL: In the metapackge, edit update.cfg and change all instances of maverick to natty.
<ScottL> TheMuso, i already had before trying the ./update
<TheMuso> hrm ok then
<ScottL> but i will check it again, to make sure it didn't type something silly, like "natt" for instance ;)
<TheMuso> heh ok
<ScottL> TheMuso, my update.cfg -> http://pastebin.com/7dF07bKZ
<ScottL> but i didn't see any obvious errors
<TheMuso> hrm ok.
<TheMuso> No idea then.
<TheMuso> kinda busy with other things atm so can't take a good look.
<ScottL> TheMuso, no problem, i need to make two more changes to the seeds to fix some other 'audio' references tonight, and hopefully the iso image will build tonight
<ScottL> i'll try the ./update again tomorrow morning
<ScottL> if that doesn't work, then i'll start worrying ;)
<TheMuso> ok
<ScottL> but i suppose i should also send a nice note to colin for fixing my mistakes
<persia> ScottL, I just ran germinate with your update.cfg successfully.  Did you also update debian/control to match the new model?
<ScottL> persia, not properly i realize now
<ScottL> persia, would leaving out either ubuntustudio-generation or ubuntustudio-recording cause the ./update to fail?
 * ScottL is feeling very unintelligent throughout this process
#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-11-21
<persia> It shouldn't.
<persia> For my simple test, I didn't update control at all, but it's one of the things to touch when making changes.
<persia> I also wonder if the metas oughtn't be -audio-generation and -audio-recording, but that might just be me.
 * persia is thinking about semantic confusion for things like video recording
<persia> That ./update worked for me is mostly just an indicator that it might work if you try again :)
<persia> In other meta updates, I suppose it's probably appropriate to remove the leftover "lpia" files at some point (doesn't have to be now)
<persia> (oh, and audio-${ARCH} also)
<TheMuso> persia, ScottL, the update mechanism doesn't look at the package metadata at all, it just updates the $seedname-
<TheMuso> persia, ScottL, the update mechanism doesn't look at the package metadata at all, it just updates the $seedname-$arch files
<persia> Well, it goes a bit further than that: it deduces the structure from STRUCTURE, places that in metapackage-map, and then updates or creates the files as necessary.
<ScottL> persia,  do i need to do anything special for the ubuntustudio-audio transitional package other than say that it depends on ubuntustudio-generation and ubuntustudio-recording and update the description
<persia> Still, updating control is an essential step towards having a working metapackage for upload :)
<persia> ScottL, That's all: just make sure the audio-${ARCH} and audio-receommends-${ARCH} files are removed, so that the resulting audio package has no contents.
<ScottL> persia, should i also removed the ${germinate:depends} and leave the two previously mentioned package?
<persia> You want to remove all of $[germinate:Depends}. ${germinate:Recommends}, and ${misc:Depends} for the dummy package (this is the only kind of package that doesn7t need misc:Depends)
<ScottL> good :)  i'm doing it right then
<ScottL> i think both the image and lmms/ubuntustudio-meta built correctly last night
<ScottL> yay!
<ScottL> i expect that should be the old meta package, not the updated one
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-11-14
<scott-work> good morning
<knome> hey
<scott-work> how are you doing today knome?
<astraljava> scott-work: Hiya. Sorry, my weekend didn't go as I planned. What was it that I needed to look at, again?
<scott-work> astraljava: don't do it quite yet please :)
<scott-work> i'm reworking it because the flow of the page really bothered me
<scott-work> i hope to be done either tonight or tomorrow
<scott-work> i'm kinda glad you didn't dig into it yet actually :)
<knome> scott-work, better today :)
<astraljava> scott-work: Oh okay, good.
<scott-work> okay, astraljava, here is what i have for the qa testing page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/TestingQA-ISOImages
<scott-work> let me know what you think
<astraljava> scott-work: Ok. I'm actually trying to sleep soon, but if I can't (which is likely) I'll have a look.
<scott-work> did someone just ping me as i left a few seconds ago?
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-11-15
<len> ScottL: Looked at test page as above. Looks ok but the page pointed to for the iso has old stuff from last cycle still. Not that it matters as the new one won't install yet anyway.
<ScottL> len, the page will update when the new qa images are available
<len> Ok
<astraljava> ScottL: I was pinging you, yes. I just said if I can't sleep soon, I'll be eyeing over the pages. But I ended up trouble-shooting some other issues with Xubuntu people. It turned out we didn't include indicator-sound-gtk2 in the seeds, and thus people are missing the volume icon in the default install.
<astraljava> I don't know whether we should do something about it, or rather, can we do anything about it?
<ScottL> astraljava, hmmm, not sure really
<ScottL> we could update the desktop meta and they would have an update after installation, no?
<astraljava> ScottL: I suppose. If they kept the package installed, then yes logically that should happen, silly me.
<astraljava> ScottL: Ok, I made the change.
<astraljava> Question is, shall we ask for a SRU?
<falktx__> crap
<falktx__> sorry, wrong clicks
<ScottL> astraljava, would they rebuild the image for it?
<ScottL> i'm not sure on the SRU though
<micahg> ScottL: it's a meta package, so fairly low risk for a rebuild depending on what's added (in this case stuff is broke, so an SRU seems warranted)
<ScottL> thank you micahg :)
<ScottL> astraljava,  i would be happy to file the SRU bug if you haven't already
<astraljava> ScottL: I haven't had time yet, sort of busy at work.
<astraljava> I'll do it later in the evening unless you notify that you've done it.
<ScottL> i'll try today during work, but make sure i let you know if i do it though, astraljava 
<astraljava> ScottL: Don't worry, LP tells me if I try to add an existing one.
<ScottL> oh yeah :) 
 * ScottL is out the door with the kids
<falktx> scott-work: ScottL: ping
<scott-work> hi falktx 
<falktx> scott-work: do you have a minute?
<scott-work> falktx: if it is a short minute, i'm pretty busy this morning at work, but in four hours or so i should a lot more time
<scott-work> i did want to talk to you about some of the things from the work flows meeting though at some point
<falktx> scott-work: ok, later then
<l33o> hi
<holstein> l33o: o/
<falktx> hey l33o
<l33o> hi buddies ;)
<holstein> las changed the topic of #ardour to: ardour 3.0-beta1 is released!!
<falktx> holstein: it is!?
<falktx> weeee
<holstein> :)
<falktx> http://ardour.org/node/4658
<scott-work> new blog post:  http://dullass.blogspot.com/2011/11/contributor-developments.html
<scott-work> comments always welcome, even contrary ones  ;)
<l33o> c u later
<ScottL> hi falktx , wanna talk?
 * ScottL just got home and is going ot change clothes quickly
<astraljava> Slipping into something more comfortable, aye?
<ScottL> aye ;)
<ScottL> or at least not slacks, shirt, and dress shoes
<falktx> ScottL: hey there
<falktx> ScottL: I really want to help US
<falktx> but I'm leaving Ubuntu
<ScottL> falktx, that's sad...but i understand
<ScottL> you're going to arch-land
<knome> falktx, may i ask what are the reasons?
<falktx> knome: I don't like the direction ubuntu is going, and arch seems just like what I was trying to do
<knome> okay
<falktx> ie, building from the ground up, a complete your-way setup
<ScottL> that is true, the power user would certainly go that directly
<falktx> I always install ubuntu that way, starting with a netboot iso and moving forward package by package
<falktx> ScottL: 12.04 will probably be the last version for which I support the KXStudio PPAs
<falktx> I hope UbuntuStudio becomes good enough
<ScottL> falktx, i think there is a good plan going on now and it will improve as the longer plan is further developed
<ScottL> and since we would be targeting a different audience i think it will be good enough
<falktx> yep
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-11-16
<ScottL> falktx, will you still be able to help with the iframes for the website and coding a different ubuntustudio-controls?
<falktx> ScottL: yes, sure
<falktx> I quit my job 2 weeks ago ;)
<falktx> (but with plans for a new one for 2012)
<knome> ScottL, sorry for not being so active on the website lately. i asked the canonical IS about the RT ticket though, and they said it's gonna take some more time anyway
<ScottL> knome, i think that is okay since i would like to get as much done before the IS security check anyways
<knome> yeah
<ScottL> knome, i'm hoping stochastic is making progress with this but i don't think he's moving quickly
<ScottL> i have concerns about this
<knome> right
<jussi> Morning all. 
<jussi> Has anyone looked at kdenlive recently? Has it improved any?
<jussi> There is a bleeding edge ppa here for all those interested to have a play with the very latest: https://launchpad.net/~sunab/+archive/kdenlive-svn
<jussi> Also, this might be something we want to get packaged for ubuntu: https://launchpad.net/~psyke83/+archive/ppa (pulseaudio-equaliser)
<ailo> ScottL, Is Alessio Bogani going to provide the -lowlatency to be tested, as described in https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-p-lowlatency
<ailo> ?
<ScottL> ailo, yes, that is the intent
<ScottL> ailo, but we are also going to be doing some very objective testing (with instructions provided by the kernel team) if you are interested
<ScottL> the kernel team would like to objectively test the -generic vs -lowlatency vs -rt kernel
<ScottL> once have a lot of data, we collate it, document it in a wiki, and decide if -lowlatency is really worth it, and then move one
<ScottL> on
<ScottL> ailo, would you be interested in helping with this testing
<ScottL> oh, the purpose of the documentation is to not only provide the data to justify our decision, but also to give users expectations
<ailo> ScottL, If more testers are needed, I'm happy to assist.
<ailo> ScottL, The current -lowlatency is ahead the -generic by one version, and doesn't handle graphic drivers
<ailo> I'm using my own custom compiled
<ailo> Was considering to put it up on my ppa, but I realized I need to understand debian packagin a bit more, so it's not happening soon
<ailo> bogani is calling the -lowlatency at his ppa "old"
<ailo> Just wondering where the new one might be and how to get it
<scott-work> good morning again
<astraljava> ailo: I don't think there is a newer one anywhere, yet.
<jussi> astraljava: any thoughts about my suggestions before you woke up? 
<astraljava> kdenlive and pulseaudio-equalizer? I'll have to look into that. The latter didn't work very well the last time I used it, but it might have progressed from since.
<astraljava> I don't know anything about the former, it's not really my speciality, don't know much about video nor graphics.
<scott-work> jussi: the current thought is to follow two tracks for video; one for casual user for home movies and a professional track for films
<scott-work> the editor for the home user is not determined, but kdenlive has been considered as well as openshot
<shnatsel> Dammit, the US are trying to censor the internet again, and this time it's much worse: http://www.mozilla.org/sopa/
<astraljava> We're not doing any such a thing!
<astraljava> Oh, you meant the States, not the Studio. Sorry, my bad. *blink* *blink*
<shnatsel> sorry for confusing abbreviation :(
<astraljava> Pardon me, I knew what you meant. I'm just such a bastard I can't help but to jump at the opportunity.
<scott-work> hi shnatsel 
<shnatsel> hi scott-work 
<l33o> hi
<l33o> is the midi problem when using jack solved?  i think i remember it once worked here, now the is huge midi latency - using usb here so it is no alsa midi problem i guess
<l33o> tried everything - givin higher priorities to uhci and ehci and disabling pulse...but no way...midi isnt really working
<l33o> by the way i am quite shocked about what informations are going through the net ....i could readt a thousand times that the rt kernel is the best kernel for musicians...after testing 7 different rt kernels for some weeks now i must say that those wont give the same performance then the lowlatency kernel...so it is quite sad that there are so many misleading informations concerning linux in the net :(
<astraljava> l33o: Old news are hard to get out of internet. People often borrow someone else's musings without investigations of their own.
<l33o> hehehe
<l33o> ;)
<l33o> cu
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-11-17
<scott-upstairs> micahg, regarding the SRU for the ubuntustudio-metapackage update for indicator-sound-gtk2, the SRU wiki references a previous bug report, do i need to create this bug report as well, then mark it "fix release" as note?
<scott-upstairs> or just move directly to filling a bug for the SRU?
<micahg> scott-upstairs: you can use the bug that documents the issue and was fixed, if one does not, file one
<micahg> *not exist
<scott-upstairs> aye, will do, thank you
<micahg> scott-upstairs: I can give you a bug task if you need
<scott-upstairs> i'm not familiar with a bug 'task', can you explain what it is
<micahg> release specific task (i.e. nominate for release)
<scott-upstairs> micahg, i was just going to file a bug against ubuntustudio-meta package
<scott-upstairs> micahg, if you think that is a preferable way then i will do so
<micahg> that's fine, afterwards, you need someone to nominate or accept a task for the release you want to fixx it in
<scott-upstairs> micahg, would it expedite the process for you to give me a bug task?
<micahg> it's part of the process :)
<scott-upstairs> sorry, getting distracted by family and too many things going on
<knome> ugh :)
<scott-upstairs> i'm going to have to finish this tomorrow as i need to address a few things with the kids:  https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntustudio-meta/+bug/891456
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 891456 in ubuntustudio-meta (Ubuntu) "indicator-sound-gtk2 missing from ubuntustudio-meta in oneiric" [Undecided,Fix released]
 * knome addressed a few things with skaet
<knome> scott-upstairs, ^
<scott-upstairs> knome, about what?
<knome> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/topic-precise-flavor-xubuntu
<scott-upstairs> knome, it would appear that you have a single blueprint as a dependency
<knome> yeah, haven't just yet added the rest
<knome> but we are on our way
<micahg> scott-upstairs: not sure it's actually fixed in precise, that should be done first
<micahg> scott-upstairs: you'll also need the SRU justification when you get a chance
 * micahg thought astraljava was working on this though
<scott-upstairs> micahg, okay, i should have done 'fix committed' then since it has been pushed to bzr?
<knome> i'm waiting eagerly when we will show up at status.ubuntu.com
<scott-upstairs> knome, we had similar problems, it took some tweaking to get all the blueprints right and changing settings to accomplish....and waiting for the cron job to scrub through and pick things up
<micahg> well, is it fix committed in precise? cjwatson just did an upload the other day
<knome> scott-upstairs, yup. 
<knome> we'll see
<scott-upstairs> micahg, oh, sorry, no it is not
 * scott-upstairs finally comprehends that written statement
<micahg> right, so that's the first step :0
<micahg> :)
 * knome gives the huge round of applauds
<knome> *clap*                         *clap*
<micahg> s/applauds/applause/
<kubotu> micahg: You did something wrong... Try s/you/me/ or tell me "help sed"
<scott-upstairs> lol, i told you i was distracted ;)
<knome> micahg, BAH! it's almost 5am...
 * micahg wonders how US got kubotu
<scott-upstairs> excellent question, for which i do not have an answer
 * micahg hugs kubotu
<scott-upstairs> juss.i finnaly muted him, which appears to have become unmuted
<scott-upstairs> i tried to kick him but he kept coming back
<knome> lol
<scott-upstairs> knome, sorry to ask you this now....will you have any time to help with the website further?
<knome> yeah, i will
<knome> i have load of time on weekend nights
<knome> so i'll try to have a sprint on that too :)
<scott-upstairs> i am very, very anxious to make this happen and fear it is not making the progress expect :(
<knome> don't worry
<scott-upstairs> knome, i'll look through my notes from the discussion with stochastic and collate them for presenting to you
<knome> okay, that would be great
<knome> clear instructions always make you feel like working ;)
<scott-upstairs> i don't think anything was complicated at all, just some tedious setting up some pages, etc
<scott-upstairs> aye, clear instructions do that, the blueprints are doing it for me certainly
<knome> mm-hmm
<scott-upstairs> i'll handle the content once the pages are created
<knome> okay
<knome> that's easy to do
<knome> if you have a list handy, i could do that now :P
<scott-upstairs> knome, i was impressed by the xubuntu website sprint :)  i hadn't even considered such a thing
<knome> mm-hmm
<knome> we've been thinking about the content too long now
<knome> just need to get it in order
<knome> especially as we are all set to publish, except for the content
<scott-upstairs> alas, i do not have the list handy, i'm helping the kids (sort of 'cause i;m typing too) and the laptop is downstairs with the converstation hopefully still in backscroll 
<knome> heh, okay
<knome> i'll go to bed then
<knome> see you tomorrow
<l33o> hi
<knome> i wonder if i should receive all the bug mail about ubuntu studio
<knome> :|
<l33o> mmm
<astraljava> knome: Depends whether you want to feel good regarding how bugs are treated at your side of the fence.
<ScottL> micahg, funny tidbit - i was slightly confused last night about fixing the bug in precise and your comments about "was it fixed in precise first" and i was wondering "how was i supposed to know that to do that" even though i had read the SRU wiki page last night
<ScottL> as i said, i was pretty distracted with the kids and doing several things myself
<ScottL> first thing when i woke up i realized, "duh!  #2 development fix means to fix it in the development branch of ubuntu studio...i.e. precise!.  duh!"
<ScottL> i'm being serious too, woke up and started going to wake the daughter and the first serious concious thought was that :)
<ScottL> upon reflection i realize that this was probably an embarrassingly stupid mistake but i'm pretty open and forthcoming, even about my mistake ;)
<ScottL> but i also learned something something that i will not forget (even when distracted) so i think it's good :)
<ScottL> but i do look forward to getting more into packaging and package management and getting more practical experience behind me
<astraljava> Ok, I haven't read the SRU wiki yet, so I'll fix it in precise now.
<astraljava> ScottL: micahg: precise seeds updated
<ailo> precisely!
<astraljava> Funny now, but I wonder if we're jumping into each other's throats later into the cycle.
<ailo> Just got to remember to be extra precise
<astraljava> *facepalm*
<astraljava> ailo: You're yet another finn, right?
<knome> l33o, looks like you have problems with the connection. do you think there is something you could do about it?
<l33o> sorry
<l33o> what do you mean exactly??
<astraljava> knome: Hide joins/parts, *snap*, problem solved.
<knome> you've been disconnecting and connecting, have you noticed that?
<l33o> yeah
<l33o> i have to reboot to change bios and rtirq settings
<knome> astraljava, then i won't be able to see when you part so i can start talking bad things about you.
<knome> l33o, okay. :)
<l33o> but you may be right
<knome> good to know it's not unintentional
<ailo> astraljava, Finnish, born in Sweden. Like linus, but the other way around
<l33o> since i have my adriana grub splash screen i enjoy rebooting hehehehe
<ailo> Well, not that Finnish-Swedes are Swedes
<l33o> i think its good that you told me
<astraljava> knome: Why wouldn't you talk bad things about me in my presence? I hardly care.
<knome> ;]
<knome> you're such a sweetheart.
<l33o> sometimes irc clients reconnect or loose connection during high latencies and sometimes the user dont notice that
<l33o> so good to know
<astraljava> ailo: Ahh... ok.
<l33o> thank you
<l33o> i start watching a tv show..you know becker
<ailo> Karjalainen / Savolainen. I get to be from many places
<knome> becker or beck?
<l33o> becker
<l33o> when i started watching it that i somehow can connect to this tv show
<l33o> some how i am a lil unfriendly too
<l33o> very sad and dissapointed -  never the less i am tryig to be a good guy
<l33o> so now at maybe episode 14 he talks about a girl ( his ex) he can never forget
<l33o> her name is..what a funny coincidence: sandra....the name of that girl i cant never forget - who broke my heart  and destroyed my dignity
<l33o> i really do belive that here in universe 1 averything is connected with everything
<l33o> thats why you cant shield waves like gravity - thats why everything is connected
<l33o> sorry
<l33o> talked too much - still headache  ouch
<knome> huh? :P
<l33o> yeah
<l33o> i think tonite i will do my 6 terrabyte back up..
<l33o> doing it at night -  being afraid of the vibrations at day time
<l33o> changing now completely to ext4 - like google ;)
<chrislan> cd ..
<l33o> byeee
<l33_> ;)
<l33_> sorry, that i am disturbing again - is there a way/a chance to get the lowlatency headers installed ?
<l33_> tried everything - still not able to install that
<scott-work> l33_: from where are you getting the -lowlatency kernel?
<l33_> from Alessio Igor Bogani ppa
<l33_> i thought its the same then the lowlatency kernel at kxstudio and at ubuntu studio
<scott-work> l33_: the linux-meta-* package has the headers in it
<knome> scott-work, you might be interested in our latest blueprint.
<l33_> thank you
<knome> scott-work, https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-p-xubuntu-menu-managing
<l33_> hey knome..you prefer xubuntu over lubuntu ?
<knome> l33_, i suppose, as i'm the xubuntu project lead ;]
<l33_> didnt know that 
<l33_> ;)
<knome> now you do :)
<l33_> i am allways looking for optimisations...can you tell me one reason why i should use xfce instead oflubuntu?
<knome> if you want the lightest possible ubuntu, you should use lubuntu
<l33_> i mean xubuntu instead of lubuntu
<l33_> okay....thats what i am doin
<l33_> is there better gtk22/gtk3 compatibility with xubuntu ?
<knome> or maybe something like fluxbuntu can be compared
<knome> greybird is the most complete gtk2+gtk3 theme there is
<l33_> looks really nice
<l33_> reminds me a lil of osx
<l33_> just a very lil
<knome> it is a bit similar, but definitely not meant to copy apple too much
<l33_> hehehe
<knome> brb
<l33_> c ya
<l33_> is there a special trick when compiling kernel modules for the lowlatency kernel ?
<l33_> i do have a rme soundcard and i got some nice drivers/modules which i have to make first....this worked well with the generic kernel but now with the lowlatency one
<l33_> seems that there is a systemlink to usr/src misssin here in /lib/modules/linux-lowlatency-3.013/build
<scott-work> knome: i like! i like!
<scott-work> one thing that studio needs to do also is to get freedesktop to adjust or create new categories for audio programs
<scott-work> like plugins or synths
<knome> huh?
<knome> you just add the categories to the .menu file, and in the .desktop files
<knome> scott-work, edii @ #xubuntu-devel can probably tell you even more
<knome> we hacked on the menu stuff today, and we're pretty much done in the investigation part, now we just need to simply create the pathces/code
<l33_> why is ubuntu-studio based now on xfce and not on lxde...?
<l33_> i mean, xruns are surely a serious topic, so getting the system so lean as possible helps getting closer to realtime performance
<l33_> why choosing a lil more memory consuming desktop environment?
<l33_> re boot
<knome> when you go to a less memory consuming DE's, you are always losing some of the features and user-friendliness
<scott-work> knome: ah, it had been suggested that i try to adjust the framework (i.e. freedesktop categories) rather than laboriously hack the menu file
<knome> hmm
<scott-work> we used to hack the menu ourselves before moving to xfce
<knome> scott-work, not that switching to xfce generally would fix the issue, since you the menus are still using the same spec ;)
<l33o> we are islands and never too far, we are islands...
<l33o> nite
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-11-18
<l33o> hi
<madnick> hello
<l33o> hey
<holstein> hey... is it just me, or is our iso looking less broken?
<scott-work> it's looking less broken ;)
<holstein> im going to infer progress from that
<scott-work> but there is still problems with the ia32-libs, which i brought up in an email to the release-team
<holstein> even though i know i can take no credit for said progress
<holstein> its still exciting :)
<scott-work> and i'll mention it in 10 minuts (i think) in the release team meeting
<scott-work> http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-precise/group/topic-precise-flavor-ubuntu-studio.html
<scott-work> this shows progress too ;)
<scott-work> i've got several things going on right now, so progress is definitely being made
<scott-work> one thing coming up is we need to test the kernels per steve's instructions (which i have now)
<scott-work> i'll be emailing the lists about this this weekend
<holstein> COOL
<holstein> i'll make some time and an install for that next week!
<scott-work> also, don
<scott-work> don't forget about the multi-head testing and results for documentation
<holstein> i need to update that
<scott-work> that's also progress and counts on the chart
<holstein> im ready to go with all of those really
<holstein> just need to make the documentation somewhere
<holstein> i have sane jack settings too
<holstein> oh, thats been updated it seems
<holstein> says its done
<scott-work> yeah, i've been trying to keep thigns updated to show progress
<scott-work> astraljava: watching the release team meeting is a great education in proper irc etiquette (e.g. o/  .. )
<scott-work> quite inspiring
<astraljava> Was that a hint?
<l33o> ;)
<scott-work> no, no...you have tried to impart elegance into our meetings, i'm fully supporting your efforts now :-)
<astraljava> Yeah I know, just teasing ya.
<scott-work> astraljava: :)
<scott-work> one of the outcomes out the release meeting is that we might have to remove dssi-vst from the seeds
<scott-work> and colin suggest that we might have it download during the installation process
<scott-work> [11:08] <cjwatson> scott-work: perhaps we should have that be downloaded on demand during installation, since it's proprietary? [11:08] <cjwatson> or, well, dependent on proprietary bits [11:09] <cjwatson> anyway, we can discuss by mail or whatever
<scott-work> hrmmm, and maybe wine as well
<astraljava> I'm okay with that, it's not particularily hard to do.
<scott-work> i think dssi-vst brings in wine as a dependency actually
<ScottL> i have an actionable plan from steve (the kernel team) to test kernels for this weekend, who wants to help?
<ScottL> i'm not opening this up to the public yet, steve just wants to confirm that the test seems to give realistic results at this point
<ScottL> probably need three people total to do this
<ScottL> i'm happy to be one
<ScottL> ailo, astraljava, holstein:  want to help?
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-11-19
<astraljava> ScottL: Yeah sure, go ahead.
<holstein> ScottL: yeah... im in
<ScottL> astraljava, holstein :  here is most of steve's instructions:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SteveConklin/rteval
<ScottL> here is the rest:  "One more thing - it's not clear to me how cgroups might affect this test and the
<ScottL> validity of the results, so it is probably worth running it both from a terminal
<ScottL> app under your regular login, and also from the console (ctrl-alt-F1),
<ScottL> to see whether the results are different"
<ScottL> thanks astraljava and holstein , i'll do my test tomorrow
<ailo> ScottL, But we're only supposed to test with a -generic kernel?
<ScottL> ailo, let me add this part....
<ScottL> What I'd like to do now is have just a few people test it and run it on some
<ScottL> machines (both low-latency and regular kernels) and see whether the numbers it
<ScottL> gives us are different, make sense, and are useful to us for making judgements
<ScottL> about the choice between various kernels or options.
<ScottL> If you can take a look and try to run this under the LL kernel, that would be
<ScottL> great. If it's useful, I'll see whether I need to put more time into packaging
<ScottL> this up nicely.
<ScottL> For now I'll just gather results and compare them.
<ailo> So you guys have -lowlatency kernels available?
<ScottL> LL - lowlatency
<ScottL> abogani's ppa, ailo 
<ailo> I had problems with his kernel
<ailo> I have my own
<ScottL> https://launchpad.net/~abogani/+archive/ppa
<ScottL> oh, what problems were you having?
<ailo> Are yours working well?
<ailo> I haven't tried his for a while
<ailo> I'll install it and see what happens
<ailo> ScottL, Can't boot with that kernel
<ailo> I was asking you a couple of days ago about this
<ailo> Whether we were to be using a different kernel, since alessio has labeled the one in his PPA "old"
<ailo> Only, the one in his PPA is ahead the Ubuntu kernel by one version
<ailo> Don't know if that's intentional
<ailo> I'm using standard Ubuntu install, so I don't know if that will make things any different
<ailo> I can't even boot into a terminal
<ailo> ScottL, Could you ask Alessio about this?
<ailo> I could give you guys a script that would let you build your own custom kernel, but I don't have time to do that today
<ailo> Heading to the studio later
<ScottL> ailo, i will ask alessio about it and i'll check one more thing as well
<ScottL> ailo, try this one perhaps?  https://launchpad.net/~abogani/+archive/lowlatency
<ScottL> you are right, the other one was labeled as "old", this one is just "lowlatency" and latest build was 3 weeks ago
<ScottL> no headers though in this one :/
<ScottL> oh, wait...yes there are header files!
<ScottL> i think this one is probably the right one then
<ailo> ScottL, Cool. Se we need to test it on Precise as well then
<ailo> I heard it was installable
<ailo> Time to get Precise, then..
<len_> ailo said "I heard it was installable" Close. see my email on the list. There are some metas that have issues. These may not affect this test though.
<len_> The install goes fine with no work flows... I was able to install all but 3 of the 6 metas And those three I was able to install most of after the fact with aptitude. The desktop has a problem with the sudo stuff.
<len_> When I try to run  synaptic for example, instead of asking me for the sudo password, it asks for root's password. Any of the other sudo menu items seemed to have the same problem.
<len_> I tested setting up a printer too, same thing. I would guess xubuntu is having this problem too as I don't think we do anything to that. Can someone ask one of them? Seems to me there is someone connected both ways.
<ailo> As long as we're able to boot into the system. I guess we don't even need a desktop to run the tests
<ailo> I'm gonna install it this evening (not even 8 am here yet)
<ailo> And run the test
<ailo> bb tomorrow about the results
<len_> Looking at the instructions a new kernel is downloaded, but no reboot happens?
<ailo> len_, The instructions for the test?
<len_> Ja, the link from earlier on.
<len_> This one : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SteveConklin/rteval
<ailo> len_, I don't think you install the kernel in those instructions. It seems you download source code into the rtval directory, which is needed for the rtval install
<len_> makes sense. I've gotten away from the roll your own days.
<ailo> I haven't downloaded anything yet, but I assume rtval is compiled and using something from the kernel source
<ailo> len_, Just install whatever derivative of Ubuntu Precise you want, add abogani's lowlatency and the proceed with the rtval instructions, if you'd like to participate in the test
<ailo> btw, ScottL: Are there any settings for changing cpu governor in Ubuntu Studio?
<len_> I can do that but the machine I have it installed on is using a 40G usb  drive. The drive access is kinda slow, would that affect it?
<ailo> I guess the smartest thing is for everyone to install the same derivative of Ubuntu :P
<len_> I've got the nov 18 US on here.
<ailo> len_, It won't affect audio performance, but I have no idea about what the test does, so..
<len_> I could use 11.10 on the other machine though.
<len_> OK, it doesn't look like it has any special needs. I think I will run it on the net book.
<len_> It is slower and so will show problems and differences better.
<ailo> len_, I don't know if it show differences better, or even differently. Atom processor? On our end, we're really just interested in audio performance, but I don't know what the test does yet
<len_> Ja atom. Aspire one.
<ailo> We don't know if the test is useful, even
<ailo> But, let's get cracking and see what happens :)
<len_> Tried rteval on Nov18 alpha distro for US. Step 2D failed:
<len_> root@ubuntu:~/python-schedutils-0.3# python setup.py install
<len_> running install
<len_> running build
<len_> running build_ext
<len_> building 'schedutils' extension
<len_> creating build
<len_> creating build/temp.linux-i686-2.7
<len_> creating build/temp.linux-i686-2.7/python-schedutils
<len_> gcc -pthread -fno-strict-aliasing -DNDEBUG -g -fwrapv -O2 -Wall -Wstrict-prototypes -fPIC -I/usr/include/python2.7 -c python-schedutils/schedutils.c -o build/temp.linux-i686-2.7/python-schedutils/schedutils.o
<len_> python-schedutils/schedutils.c:1:20: fatal error: Python.h: No such file or directory
<len_> compilation terminated.
<len_> error: command 'gcc' failed with exit status 1
<ailo> len_, You're missing something, like a library
<ailo> len_, I'll have a look at it in the evening or tomorrow
<ailo> python.h sounds like a standard python dev lib
<ailo> Belonging to one, I mean
<len_> I'm gone for the night. I'll try it on 11.10 tomorrow.
<len_> Ya, US seems to be missing a lot of bits... a calader that pops up from the clock would be nice
<len_> opps Calendar..
<ailo> This would be a development library
<ailo> Something like python-dev, or similar
<ailo> See you len_ 
<len_> bye
<l33o> mornin every one
<l33o> bye
<len_> G'morning, I would guess that the instructions on the rteval webpage need to be changed to include whatever packages are needed in step one if that procedure is to be useful.
<len_> Whoever wrote it probably already had this stuff on their system.
<astraljava> len_: I fail to see your point. The page starts with "1. Install the required packages:"
<len_> Yes, I did straight copy and paste the first line that is supposed to get all required packages sudo apt-get install python-ethtool python-libxslt1 python-dmidecode rt-tests 
<astraljava> And that's not enough?
<len_> It didn't work when I get to sudo python setup.py install 
<len_> See above (last night) for what I got.
<astraljava> A-ha. Well, you can edit the page, can't you?
<len_> At this point if I did that... it would be to add... more stuff required to the page. I am not sure which package it is.
<astraljava> The thing about wikis, as you can see, is that at any given point in time, they might not be 100% correct. Anything that takes you closer, is welcome.
<len_>  I came from slackware where all the devel stuff was included in any install I did because a lot of the packages I used where src. Ubuntu is not like that...
<len_> Still getting used to it.
<len_> Says immutable page, I thought that meant no changes allowed.
<astraljava> Probably, then.
<astraljava> Ahh... you just have to login.
<astraljava> log in*
<len_> So I would have to have an account... maybe I do but don't remember :-)
<astraljava> *rolls eyes*
<len_> gotta go for now...
<ailo> I was going to do the rteval test tonight, but I'm too tired. I'll have to wait until tomorrow
<ailo> len_, I would start with installing python-dev
<ailo> len_, Then redo. If there's an error, check what header is missing. Google it, and install the required library
<shnatsel> I'm writing docs on seeds
<shnatsel> targeted at creating ubuntu derivatives
<shnatsel> they might be helpful to you too
<shnatsel> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RPPF14h1Sw2gQjGTuZjUIlNHnGrafS8ekhFjJM9MT00/edit
<shnatsel> trying to make the doc more or less step-by-step
<shnatsel> any additions, comments, insight etc appreciated
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-11-20
<ScottL> falktx, there are problems with dssi-vst right now
<ScottL> what happens if we remove it from the seeds
<falktx> ScottL: nothing actually
<falktx> latest gcc seems to break dssi-vst
<falktx> ScottL: it can be fixed though
<ScottL> falktx, it isn't gcc, according to colin watson it's a transition to using multi-arch libraries for building ia32-lib
<ScottL> and somehow germinate is not picking up the dependency across the platforms (or something similar)
 * ScottL is looking up the meeting logs again
<falktx> ScottL: oh, that is another problem then ;)
<falktx> ScottL: but my idea is that this should be build for i386 only
<ScottL> bah, i can't find the logs....that goofy, it was a friday meeting for ubuntu-release in #ubuntu-meeting
<ScottL> oh, strange thing, a thought
<ScottL> i wonder if dssi-vst is actually a _dependency_ and not in the seeds, this may be why it can't find it
<ScottL> but i wonder if we put it in the seeds if it would grab it without problem
<ScottL> i'm still weirded out by not being able to find the logs
<ScottL> falktx, found it, but it wasn't in the logs?
<ScottL> falktx, "but germinate can't traverse multiarch
<ScottL> dependency chains, so it doesn't know that it needs to include
<ScottL> ia32-libs-multiarch:i386 (which ia32-libs:amd64 depends on) and all the
<ScottL> i386 libraries that ia32-libs-multiarch in turn depends on."
<falktx> ScottL: I would say drop dssi-vst from the seeds, but not from the repos
<falktx> dssi-vst is of no use in a default install anyway
<ScottL> falktx, i can't remove it from the repos, and no one is suggesting this happens
<falktx> ok good then
<micahg> ScottL: falktx: dssti-vst is in ubuntustudio-audio-plugins
<micahg> *dssi-vst
<falktx> micahg: yes, it perhaps should be removed
<ScottL> micahg, i wasn't sure if it was or not, i seemed to remember when i changed the seeds before that one of the dssi packages might have needed it as a dependency
<ScottL> but thanks :)
<ScottL> i'm running steve's rteval program right now upstairs, i was going to start looking after that (or probably in the morning)
<ScottL> for those who are curious about the rteval...yes, phython-dev is required to build
<ScottL> i've already appended the wiki page (and included git as well)
<ScottL> astraljava, ailo holstein ^^^^
<ScottL> astraljava, if you haven't added indicator-sound-gtk2 to the seeds, i'll do it tomorrow morning when i remove dssi-vst
<ScottL> and micahg, i'll be sure and make two separate commits to bzr ;)
<micahg> ScottL: sounds good
<ailo> ScottL, Is it working?
<ailo> ScottL, I'm about to install Precise in a moment
<astraljava> ScottL: I did already (and you should have had bugmail about that, too).
<l33> hi
<ScottL> ailo, yes, it worked but i did it in oneiric
<ScottL> ailo, i understand you are having problems with aboganni's kernel, but the "old-lowlatency" ppa worked for me using oneiric and the "lowlatency" ppa only has precise in it currently
<ScottL> ailo, i cannot speak directly for steve, but my feeling is that he wanted to test with oneiric to validate the testing methodology, but i could be wrong
<ScottL> astraljava, aye, i had seen it but forgot about it, you are correct
<ScottL> hi shnatsel :D thanks for the link to the seeds document
<ScottL> i haven't read it all the way through yet but i plan to
<shnatsel> ScottL: no
<shnatsel> ScottL: it's a work-in-progress
<shnatsel> ScottL: s/no/np/
<shnatsel> grrr
<shnatsel> I want a new keyboard :(
<ScottL> lol
<ScottL> shnatsel, do you know thorwil well?
 * ScottL has been meaning to follow up about this for some time
<shnatsel> ScottL: I've worked with him for half a year in ubuntu artwork team and submitted some patches for his apps, that's all
<ScottL> you had mentioned him doing some artwork perhaps for ubuntu studio
<ScottL> recently dick macinnis has reapproached me to do some work with ubuntu studio including artwork
<ScottL> but i worry about dick getting stuff done as he sometimes "disappears"
<ScottL> and i really want ubuntu studio to have some nice artwork consisting of a thematic arc across plymouth, lightdm, and wallpaper
<ScottL> so, shnatsel , if you think thorwil might be interested would you mind contacting him about it?
<ScottL> since we are moving to xfce and such, this would be a good time to make a clean break into the new direction, although it doesn't have to happen for this cycle (although it would be nice ;)  )
<shnatsel> ScottL: if I were you, I'd focus on important stuff and just reuse existing theming, e.g. elementary stuff should be polished and included in Ubuntu repos for 12.10 (we're aiming for almost simultaneous release with 12.04)
<ScottL> shnatsel, i would say that we are currently working on the important stuff
<ScottL> creating the artwork is the difficult part, getting the images into our packages is the easy part
<shnatsel> ScottL: yeah, exactly what I mean
<shnatsel> ScottL: elementary is told to resemble mac, and it's rumored to attract creative people...
<shnatsel> ScottL: I can ask thorwil of course
<ScottL> but i wouldn't be "creating" the artwork, hopefully either dick or thorwil would be
<shnatsel> ScottL: what exactly do you want them to do?
<shnatsel> ScottL: plymouth? greeter? themes? icons? wallpapers?
<ScottL> hmmm, i hadn't considered themes and icons, i was just thinking the plymouth, greeter, and wallpaper
<ScottL> i think using the xubuntu themes and icons is okay
<shnatsel> I'm the Plymouth guy :) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75_qyL7U2ME
<shnatsel> ScottL: greeter is complicated, you need several people to make one for sure
<shnatsel> ScottL: that demo is old and buggy actually, nowadays I know much more about Plymouth
<ScottL> shnatsel, i made the current ubuntu studio plymouth them based on what cory had found
<ScottL> shnatsel, but your's looks really nice though, i liked the fade in
<shnatsel> ScottL: I'm afraid the fullscreen fade-in is too costly
<shnatsel> ScottL: even if I can make it smooth on real boot, it slows down the boot process
<ScottL> shnatsel, here's what i envisioned, a thematically consistent set of images (not the same, mind you, just thematically consistent) that will be used for plymouth, lightdm, and wallpaper
<ScottL> if someone can do that, i can do the rest at some point
<ScottL> the plymouth and wallpaper are the easiest to implement
<shnatsel> ScottL: why not the same? IMHO the same would be perfect!
<ScottL> for the lightdm, i would be rebasing it on what either ubuntu is doing/has done or what xubuntu comes up with
<shnatsel> ScottL: oh, OK
<shnatsel> that's what elementary has for lightdm: http://danrabbit.deviantart.com/art/Desktop-Log-In-251559180
<ScottL> shnatsel, "why not the same?"  it was because of placement of the CoF
<shnatsel> it's already coded and works
<ScottL> i thought that the CoF would be in the center of the screen (more or less) for the plymouth theme but definitely not on the desktop
<ScottL> for the wallpaper it would be out of the way, perhaps in the bottom right corner and even perhaps mostly off the screen with just the top left quadrant of the CoF visible
 * ScottL is look at elementry lightdm
<ScottL> oh yes, i remember that, i asked you about the girl with blue hair and the scott pilgrim movie :)
<ScottL> and the image for the lightdm would depend on what is taken from whom
<shnatsel> There also was some code done on http://whyareyoureadingthisurl.wordpress.com/2011/04/12/login-screen-mockup-videos/
<ScottL> shnatsel, i will certainly look at those later (i need to get some other testing done today)
<ScottL> shnatsel, please talk to thorwil, i'm open to much but i do want to minimize the work required of me or the team if possible
<shnatsel> but they're probably incomplete
<shnatsel> there's also a basic gtk greeter, but it's dumb and ugly
<shnatsel> ScottL: so, you want a set of images/mockups for Plymouth, greeter and wallpaper, right?
<ScottL> shnatsel, if thorwil is acceptable, but i would also be open to other things as well, maybe even a rework of the CoF
<shnatsel> ScottL: wait - you still have the old CoF?!
<shnatsel> no ubuntu font brandmark and all that?
<ScottL> shnatsel,  i meant the actual graphic can change
<ScottL> but we logo does have the new ubuntu font
<ScottL> s/we/the
<shnatsel> ah, ok
<ScottL> shnatsel, the artwork is a bit of a mess currently, during this cycle and next i would like to start collating it together and put it into a bzr branch
<ailo> ScottL, We can't use different kernel versions, if we are to test the difference between -generic and -lowlatency correctly, even thought there's most likely no difference between the kernels other than the config. And, since I am unable to boot into the -lowlatency found at the ppa, I am unable to do anything for the test
<ailo> Tried installing Precise earlier, but it failed at or after network recognition 
<ailo> So, I can't do anything right now
<ailo> Except build my own kernel, and try with that
<ailo> I might try installing Precise again, but not today
<ailo> Actually, I might try booting into the lowlatency without nvidia drivers installed..
<ailo> But, it's still the wrong kernel version
<ailo> Yep, removing the drivers did it.
<ailo> ScottL, Where do we post the test results?
<ScottL> ailo, i emailed steve the results so far
<ScottL> uno momento, por favor
<ScottL> steve.conklin@canonical.com
<ScottL> that is the email address i used and i put 'rteval' in the subject line (along with some other stuff)
<ailo> ScottL, Unfortunately I was only able to run the test once
<ailo> Second time I interrupted with Ctrl + C, after which 3rd and later attempts all failed
<ailo> I'll have another look at it tomorrow
<ailo> I'll mail him the results
<astraljava> No one else recalled the meeting either? Good, so I'm not the only one.
<shnatsel> astraljava: in #ubuntu-meeting?
<ScottL> astraljava, was that today?
<astraljava> Every other Sunday.
<ScottL> oh crap :(
<astraljava> Oh well, I was watching soccer with jussi.
<ScottL> yeah, i see it on my calendar now :/
<ScottL> astraljava, do you want to try it later this afternoon?
<ScottL> i need to go to my inlaws and fix their xubuntu install
<astraljava> I don't mind, I've got nowhere to be anymore.
<ScottL> they cancelled an update for some reason :/
<ScottL> cancelled it in the middle of the update, mind you
<astraljava> Yep.
<ScottL> i should be back in about three hours, holstein is playing a gig (or two) this afternoon
<astraljava> Right. See ya when you get back.
<shnatsel> OK, looks like I've written down all I know about seeds: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RPPF14h1Sw2gQjGTuZjUIlNHnGrafS8ekhFjJM9MT00/edit
<ScottL> astraljava, i'm back and ready if you are
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-11-12
<scott-work> final release discussion for ardour 3.0 http://ardour.org/node/5682
<holstein> woohoo!
<ttoine> yes !
<ttoine> scott-work, zequence, knome, I had a chat with pleia2 from the xubuntu team, she gave me the email of the person who help her to get the @xubuntu for their community. I just sent an email to this contact, I hope that it wil help
<scott-work> very cool
<len-dt> How long before ardour3 makes it to debian?
<len-dt> (after release)
<falktx> ardour doesnt like to be packaged
<falktx> it goes against their source of revenue (downloads asking for donations)
<falktx> but there's already an ardour3 package in debian-multimedia
<falktx> just waiting for the "ok, now it's safe to package" from the devs
<falktx> len-dt: so I say, although ardour devs might not be very happy with it, it should only take a few days or weeks after official release
<len-dt> Sounds good.
<len-dt> I understand how they feel, but I also feel that US should come with ardour and that it should be up to date.
<len-dt> However, I have set up our menu in such a way that the user can install the original package and it will show up in the right place.
<len-dt> If a user is having trouble getting support they can install the ardour site version and go from there.
<len-dt> To put it another way... if it was easy to do, I would be happy to ship our ISO with the ardour site version.
<len-dt> I don't think it will ever be though.
<ttoine> len-dt, would it be possible to create a kink of "donate screen" in US ?
<len-dt> ttoine, There is a longer story that that I think.
<ttoine> a kind of
<len-dt> Ubuntu uses deb source to make ubuntu packages. to do that we would have to do what happens with the flash installer
<ttoine> and this is not possible ?
<len-dt> We would create a package that just downloads and installs ardour
<len-dt> we would have to coodinate with ardour because it is not a licence issue
<len-dt> they want people to see their screens on their site with links to their donate software.
<len-dt> this is fundamentally different than the flash instance
<len-dt> Generally in Ubuntu an open source version is desirable
<len-dt> And it does exist. So it is the first choice
<len-dt> ttoine, in other words I don't think we would be able to ship the ardour version.
<ttoine> ok
<ttoine> But I was not thinking about that
<ttoine> I was more thinking about a general donate screen, not only for ardour
<len-dt> I don't know what the legal aspect of that is. I will note there is no such thing anywhere else in Ubuntu. 
<len-dt> Our biggest lack in my opinion, is time... people's time.
<len-dt> Money is not really an issue.
<ttoine> yes
<ttoine> but it was just to make a kind of reminder for user that yes it is free (so free of charge, too) but maybe they can contribute a bit to the projects they use
<len-dt> Having a page on our website that has links to pages of the software we use where people could donate might be ok.
<ttoine> it is a good idea
<len-dt> I think we have a contribute to Studio page where we ask for help.
<len-dt> that may be a good place to link from.
<len-dt> ttoine, there is a link from the main menu to our contribute page (or there could be, I think right now it goes to the dev mailing list page)
<ttoine> yes
<ttoine> len-dt, should I add this in PR blueprint ?
<len-dt> I think that is valid. both repointing the menu item to the correct page and expanding the contribute page.
<ttoine> hum
<ttoine> I can't add a work items...
<ttoine> scott-work, I can't add a workitem on the PR blueprint.
<len-dt> are you logged in?
<scott-work> ttoine: hmmm, as long as you are logged in it should work
<ttoine> knome, zequence, len-dt, could you have a look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Ttoine ?
<ttoine> I would like to become a "Member" and would have your opinion on my wiki page ?
<knome> ttoine, the lists in "contributions" aren't working correctly, for starters
<knome> ttoine, fixed it. will add a testimony later
<ttoine> knome, oh, thank you very much
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-11-13
<scott-work> buenos dias, everyone
<scott-work> i feel like we have already spent waaaay too much time talking about the plymouth stuff on the mailing list :P
<scott-work> i plan to temporarily remove blender from the seeds to try to get the images to build again
<scott-work> i'm guessing this might be one of the python3.0 things
<zequence> scott-work: We were discussing the python issue before. Could be Blender needs to be patched for it to install
<scott-work> zequence: ja, i think this is the problem, i haven't been keeping up with #ubuntu-devel but i would expect appreciable discussion regarding python
<scott-work> i wonder if we could get debian multimedia to assist in this and then request a sync into ubuntu?
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-11-14
<smartboyhw> Good cjwatson is gonna fix that blender python bug
<smartboyhw> I do believe that bug is gonna be fixed today.
<astraljava> http://good-wallpapers.com/pictures/2449/i_want_to_believe.jpg
<zequence> astraljava: Such a soothing idea
<zequence> hmm, I wonder why my source is not being uploaded to PPA
<smartboyhw> astraljava: Yeah what do you want to believe eh?
<smartboyhw> x
<smartboyhw> oops
<smartboyhw> zequence: Which PPA?
<zequence> smartboyhw: I only have one. I'm trying to upload the source for a patched version of jackd2
<smartboyhw> zequence that is weird. It should send an email to you if the source is not acceptef
<zequence> smartboyhw: Exactly. I don't get any mail at all. And the dput command doesn't show any errors either. It's accepted. Everything seems fine, but nothing happens in launchpad
<smartboyhw> zequence: what did you type?
<smartboyhw> btw I think your account's finally merged. Congrats
<astraljava> smartboyhw: It was a reference to your last line before that link.
<smartboyhw> astraljava, ah you mean about the bug
<scott-work> i updated the seeds to comment out blender last night, i will be curious to see how the images behave today
<scott-work> although the -metas are not update
 * scott-work also update the artwork author's file like he has been threatening for six months :P
<smartboyhw> Hi scott-work cjwatson is working on the blender fix, probably now in raring-proposed
<scott-work> yay :)
<smartboyhw> So scott-work just wait till the fix gets released!:-D
<scott-work> i've already uploaded it to bzr
<scott-work> do we have an ETA for the fix to make it to the repos proper (i.e. not in proposed)?
<sbhw> scott-work: um not sure I am gonna ping cjwatson
<scott-work> sbhw: i don't consider it uber critical, but i would like to have an idea of when we need to uncomment blender and see if the fix works
<sbhw> scott-work: 1. cjwatsin set that and 2. I am gonna ask now
<sbhw> scott-work: The transition is auto, and the guys are complaining about we being too impatient. Should be fixed in an hour or two though
<scott-work> shizer, heh, now i wished i hadn't made the change in bzr :P
<sbhw> lol
<scott-work> i responded in -devel apologizing to cjwatson for causing trouble
<sbhw> good
<scott-work> i see that cjw "smiled" and "wink" alot in his comments, but i would feel better if he responded to me saying "it's all okay"...oh, well
<sbhw> ;-)
<smartboyhw> scott-work: Blendet fix released
<smartboyhw> *blender
<smartboyhw> grrr
<zequence> Well, making many mistakes is a good way to learn
<zequence> I finally got my patched jackd2 package uploaded to my PPA
<micahg> scott-work: I saw your blender change, but it didn't require a meta upload to fix the ISO, so I didn't bother
<scott-work> micahg: and even better cjwatson released the blender fix already so my change needs to be reverted already :P
<scott-work> but thank you :)
<zequence> Ah, damn. I'm getting a bit confused now
<zequence> micahg: Is this doomed to not get accepted? https://code.launchpad.net/~zequence/ubuntu/quantal/jackd2/fix-for-956438/+merge/134343
<micahg> zequence: needs to make it into raring first
<micahg> zequence: would be helpful if they were 2 patches with proper dep-3 headers
<falktx_> micahg: afaik that branch only uses patches from upstream
<zequence> micahg: Ok, so I patch raring first? It's the same package. Then, what? SRU the whole package, or request a merge, like the one I did?
<zequence> falktx_: Those two patches, don't they fix one bug?
<zequence> micahg: Ok, I need to see what dep-3 is about
<micahg> !dep3 | zequence
<micahg> zequence: http://dep.debian.net/deps/dep3/
<zequence> I deleted the branch. Will have another go at this tomorrow
<ttoine> zequence, thanks for you testimonial
<zequence> ttoine: np.
<zequence> ttoine: I'm in the process of updating jackd2 for 12.10 and 12.04, to fix that bug
<zequence> ttoine: falktx package is not the same as on Ubuntu, so it cannot be used
<zequence> However, he was kind enough to tell which commits in the jack2 source would fix that bug for us
<zequence> Which is what I'm using for patching the current packages
<ttoine> zequence, that was I writed: speak with falktx, not "get his package"
<ttoine> ;-)
<ttoine> I will try to apply for a membership next session
<zequence> I'm tryin the steam beta client. Trying to install the only game I know is free to try. All on this page http://www.ubuntuvibes.com/2012/11/steam-linux-beta-launched-how-to.html
<falktx_> precise has updated its lowlatency kernel
<falktx_> nice
<falktx_> scott-work: was it you? maybe the process is now automated for precise too .. ?
<zequence> falktx_: It was ukt
<zequence> Over time, I will be taking over maintenance for -lowlatency on all releases
<zequence> Or, it was apw (Andy Whitcroft)
<zequence> Same process for all releases now
<falktx_> ah, nice
<zequence> falktx_: Did you try steam for linux yet?
<falktx_> so the lowlatency will not longer be behind generic?
<falktx_> zequence: I did try the steam client, runs a bit slow. didn't got into any games though
<zequence> falktx_: I would think lowlatency will be in sync from mow on
<zequence> Ah, yeah. The full screen window was not very good
 * falktx_ is grateful to scott-work for his initial push of lowlatency into precise
<zequence> Yes, it was important
<scott-work> falktx_: i was not directly involved in automating the lowlatency kernel maintenance, i think that was zequence
<scott-work> i just received my nexus 7 from the post, but i have too much work right now to play with it
<falktx_> oh, then thank you zequence too ;)
<holstein> zequence: if wubi already works, i say we just document and leave it unless someone is just dying to maintain it
<zequence> falktx_: I'd say the initial work was done by alessio bogani and scott-work. I think I might have played a role in testing it, and motivating why it should go in the repo, but other than that, it's been other people
 * ttoine too
<zequence> holstein: From my understanding, wubi works just fine, but Ubuntu Studio is not enabled to be installed with it
<zequence> I think we just need to talk with someone about switching Ubuntu Studio installations on
 * ttoine thanks everybody involved in -lowlatency kernel !
<zequence> And the person who is making -lowlatency maintenance possible now is Andy Whitcroft, so much credit to him
<ttoine> maybe we can send him a kind of collective thank you
<ttoine> zequence, so it means that from now, the -lowlatency kernel will have security updates etc ?
<scott-work> ttoine: that was the plan, it would get security updates and align with -generic version
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-11-15
<holstein> zequence: last time i tried it, it worked fine
<holstein> i put wubi.exe in the same directory as the ubuntustudio iso
<holstein> if its not something we need to do anything to get working, im for it.. lets try and talk soon and seek out whomever we need to ask
<smartboyhw> zequence, I knew how to get ubiquity to wubi now
<smartboyhw> Phew finally we got a daily build to test:P
 * smartboyhw expects 3.8.5-lowlatency to test:P
<smartboyhw> I mean when Ubuntu Studio comes to RC stage
<zequence> smartboyhw: You are free to suggest anything on wubi. There's a workitem about it in the blueprints
<zequence> [ubuntustudio-dev] Decide whether wubi.exe also should support installing Ubuntu Studio (bug #1070682): TODO
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1070682 in Wubi "wubi and ubuntu studio" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1070682
<smartboyhw> zequence, I will do that workitem. I actually have the code:P
<zequence> smartboyhw: Suggest to implement it on the mail list
<smartboyhw> zequence, OK
<zequence> I think some people might have opinions about it
<zequence> smartboyhw: And if they accept, you are free to do the change
<smartboyhw> zequence, gee OK
<smartboyhw> zequence, did
<zequence> smartboyhw: I personally don't feel we need to vote on things. The important thing is to highlight a possible change, especially if you suspect there are people with opposing opinions about something.
<zequence> This way, you find out what the good and bad sides are
<smartboyhw> zequence, yeah you write that down:D
<zequence> smartboyhw: Just for future reference. I know len suggested a "vote". But, IMO, it's the discussion itself that is the interesting part
<smartboyhw> zequence, ah ok
<zequence> Ultimately it's up to the leadership to decide, which in our case is Scott more or less
<smartboyhw> zequence, yeah
<zequence> I try to think in terms that if something is possible, and it doesn't destroy or regress anything, it should be implemented if someone wants it, and wants to implement it
<zequence> I think this is a general way of thinking in open source projects
<smartboyhw> zequence, :D
<smartboyhw> zequence, going for reboot now bye
<astraljava> zequence: Voting isn't possibly needed, but from PR-POV, it'd be great if those who wanted it there, were also willing to support it. Otherwise there's the chance that people try it on Wubi, don't get things working properly, ask for help, but there's no one supporting that. They are all the more unlikely to try it on real HW afterwards.
<knome> hey astraljava :)
<astraljava> o/
<astraljava> How was gaming night?
<smartboyhw> astraljava, :D
<knome> astraljava, quietish, there was three of us. but the game we played turned out to play really well with 3, and we all enjoyed it
<astraljava> Good to hear.
<knome> what's your schedule on sunday?
<knome> we're probably playing again then
<astraljava> That might actually work.
<knome> good :)
<astraljava> Depends on how tired I am.
<knome> yeah
<knome> we had one guy not show up yesterday either for the same reason
<astraljava> This morning, I woke up at 4 am. to squash some bugs for a colleague who went on a customer visit.
<knome> eugh
<astraljava> Of course it wouldn't have been so bad if I went to bed prior to 1 am...
<knome> i went to bed at 4.30 and read a book for half an hour
<astraljava> Sleep hasn't really been an option lately, sadly.
<astraljava> Heh.
<astraljava> You shouldn't have slept at all. :)
<knome> well, i should have
<knome> and i'm glad i did...
<smartboyhw> knome, astraljava do always get some sleep
<astraljava> Yeah. I sometimes even notice a difference in how messed up I am, depending on the hours spent on sleeping.
 * smartboyhw thought they were on #xubuntu-offtopic when he realized it is actually #ubuntustudio-dev 
<astraljava> But considering how intolerable I am even after 7 hours... Others probably won't.
 * smartboyhw goes and sets a #ubuntustudio-offtopic :P
<astraljava> Nah, we already have one landfill channel. And yes we can move.
 * astraljava didn't realize either.
<smartboyhw> Eh That channel's actually registered by joejaxx hmm
<astraljava> Joe's probably not even on this network anymore. :)
<smartboyhw> astraljava, yeah. Then what should I do?
<astraljava> I have no idea, other than turn to IRCC.
 * smartboyhw goes to find the IRCC now
<zequence> smartboyhw: I think you can just go ahead and enable Wubi
<smartboyhw> zequence, OK 
<zequence> smartboyhw: Let me know if you need to get something merged
<smartboyhw> zequence, you don't have the permission to merge it I think, the installer team has
<zequence> I'm thinking we should have some sort of procedure for enabling new features. We enable them. Test them. Evaluate. Then decide if to keep them or not
<zequence> smartboyhw: I see. It's against Ubuntu source then. Well, let us know if you need help getting that sorted out. Also, do we have wubi on our ISO?
<smartboyhw> zequence, um yes we have the wubi APP on our ISO but we don't have the option "Ubuntu Studio" I think
<zequence> ok, good
<smartboyhw> zequence, PING can you add lupin-support to our seeds? It is needed to get wubi to install Ubuntu studio
<zequence> smartboyhw: Ok. Will do
<zequence> smartboyhw: Done
<smartboyhw> zequence, thx
<len-dt> zequence, smartboyhw I have nothing against wubi, just no way of testing it. So no complaints.
<zequence> I don't have a way to test it either
<zequence> smartboyhw: Do you have Windows at home?
<smartboyhw> len-dt, zequence 1. yes but I don't use it and 2. I need to get that fix in...
<smartboyhw> BTW hi scott-work 
<scott-work> can we contact those people who requested wubi/ubuntu studio to help test this?
<scott-work> hi ms
<scott-work> hi smartboyhw 
<smartboyhw> scott-work, I haven't got the code merged 
<scott-work> that
<smartboyhw> scott-work, wait for a while please:D
<zequence> There are a couple of launchpad questions about this, as well as the bug report, so at least 3 people
<scott-work> that is fine, but i think the onus should be on those to want this feature to help out, we could start asking them now _before_ the effort is made to accomodate their request
<scott-work> ^^^ that was in response to smartboyhw 
<smartboyhw> scott-work, yes they should
<smartboyhw> scott-work, estimated merge into ubiquity: tomorrow (cjwatson's off call today:P)
<zequence> btw, the videos of me in UDS seems to have come out.
<zequence> Interview http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fi8m4ytDmVw&list=UUWUDCz-Q0m4qK7lkK4CevQA&index=6&feature=plcp
<zequence> plenary http://www.youtube.com/watch?list=UUWUDCz-Q0m4qK7lkK4CevQA&feature=player_detailpage&v=PPQ7k0jRUE4#t=560s
<smartboyhw> zequence, oh!
<zequence> Pretty boring shit, and I hope at least I'm doing an ok job speaking for Ubuntu Studio
<smartboyhw> zequence, :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
 * smartboyhw liked that video
<zequence> I seem to be losing some hair. Not very flattering standing in the pose I do with a spotlight on my head
<smartboyhw> zequence, LOL
<zequence> It's not an angle one is used to seeing oneself :P. And it must be some kind of virus going around, cause I see this happening to a lot of my friends too :(
<smartboyhw> God there is even 720p hd in your video
<smartboyhw> zequence, I am getting white hair now even (true though I'm 14)
<zequence> smartboyhw: I hope that is not the result of you worrying too much. 
<smartboyhw> zequence, pressure....learning. Hong kong kids had VERY VERY hard time learning
<zequence> smartboyhw: Yea. That is something I hope will change. It's important to learn, but it's also important to learn to be creative. And most importantly, I think, is to get some exercise
<smartboyhw> zequence, we have hard time playing sports and music. You don't understand 
<zequence> smartboyhw: Playing music doesn't mean you are learning to be creative
<smartboyhw> bye all
<Len-nb> zequence, it looks like the linux-lowlatency-pae package needs to be updated to point at linux-image-lowlatency-pae (=> 3.2.0.33)  instead of linux-image-lowlatency-pae (=> 3.2.0.33.21)
<Len-nb> That would be why the ISO build failed and why people can't upgrade 12.04 to the new kernel.
<Len-nb> This makes more sense than my message on the list  :P
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-11-16
<Len-nb> Maybe it has been fixed there is a build for today, but I can't upgrade the low latency kernel still.
<zequence> Len-nb: You should be able to install the image separately
<zequence> Len-nb: I notified apw about it
<zequence> The guy who maintains it atm
<Len-nb> Ah, I thought that was you for some reason...
<zequence> Len-nb: I haven't yet taken over maintenance
<Len-nb> Ok, I am not in a hurry to get it, just thought it should work is all :)
<zequence> Yep
<smartboyhw> OK guys we got the build actually built but you can't install it.
<smartboyhw> Bug 1079193 breaks installation in all images (all flavours)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1079193 in linux (Ubuntu) "aufs overlay error shortly after starting installer" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1079193
<smartboyhw> astraljava1, why extra nick?
<astraljava1> Got disconnected, hold on.
<smartboyhw> Oh...That's why. 
<smartboyhw> Hi scott-work 
<smartboyhw> Ladies and Gentlemen: Ubuntu Studio is now in Wubi!!!!!
<zequence> smartboyhw: So, will you be able to test install it?
<smartboyhw> zequence, hopefully yes. Some guy bcbc actually tested the original version of the code and told me it was wrong, I fixed it and the code was now merged into Wubi source code. Hopefully he will test it again
<smartboyhw> Bug 1070682 closed:D
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1070682 in Wubi "wubi and ubuntu studio" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1070682
<smartboyhw> micahg, can you please upload ubuntustudio-icon-theme 0.14 for len-dt I think we will want that fix a.s.a.p.
<smartboyhw> gee then someone should go update the seeds and the metas
<zequence> Seems like Steam coming to Ubuntu will improve chances of working ATI graphic drivers
<smartboyhw> zequence, I have it here already (though it is 13.04)
<zequence> smartboyhw: fglrx?
<smartboyhw> zequence, I mean Steam Beta
<zequence> ATI graphic drivers have their ups and downs. The open source drivers are fully functional and I think support more devices than the proprietary ones, but seem to have problems with overheating
<zequence> fglrx on the other hand may or may not work, depending on the Ubuntu release
<zequence> From what I understand, Steam will put pressure on AMD to get their proprietary drivers working well on Ubuntu
<zequence> Right now, Nvidia and Intel graphic card are well supported, but not AMD ATI
<zequence> Hopefully with Steam coming to Linux there will be more focus on well working graphic drivers
<zequence> A quote from https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Valve, "NOTE: The fglrx-experimental-9 driver will be available in precise-proposed soon, but is not yet available."
<smartboyhw> bye zequence 
<astraljava> zequence: Yeah, I wonder how they'll do that. They just axed the OS folks department in Germany.
<zequence> astraljava: Since fglrx already exists, I'd imagine it wouldn't take them too much resources to make it work ok
<astraljava> zequence: Well... they've had fglrx existing for quite some while. Look where it's gotten them. :)
<zequence> astraljava: They didn't have good enough reason to get it working better in the past. And from what I hear, Valve does work closely with Nvidia and AMD to better graphics, as does probably a lot of big gaming companies
<astraljava> Sure, it does sound logical when you put it that way. But then their actions tell a different story.
<zequence> astraljava: I haven't followed AMD business closely, but from what I understand, they are putting less effort on x86 arch
<zequence> And I wouldn't know how that would affect ATI graphic cards
<astraljava> Well, I don't think arch has anything to do with it. Most of the major linux distributions have announced the majority of their new installs base is non-x86 anyway, so it doesn't sound like the reason.
<astraljava> But, with big business, what do the outsiders know.
<zequence> astraljava: I don't think the linux distros not using x86 are as concerned with the development of fglrx (servers, and such). 
<zequence> AMD announced that they were no longer competing with Intel on x86 as they used to
<zequence> And I'm assuming the cuts are somehow related, I don't really know
<zequence> AMD ATI Radeon however, is a different issue all together
<zequence> This is about the open source driver problem http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTE3ODg
<zequence> hmm. When I maximize windows in 12.10, the top window bar disappears just like in Unity?
<zequence> This install is messed up, but I'm still a little surprised to see it happen
<zequence> Ah, the top panel is set to autohide, but it doesn't hide
<holstein> zequence: i ask users to run as root as a troubleshooting step for permissions
<holstein> zequence: i actually used the word "temporarily" in my susggetion
<holstein> suggestion*
<holstein> 14:36 < holstein> paul__: try running temporarily as root
<zequence> holstein: Yea, but if he can start jack, then you can conclude he doesn't have a permission problem
<holstein> zequence: i wasnt convinced it was starting
<holstein> zequence: it was a choice i made, and i said "temporarily".. but im trying to appreciate you clarifying
<holstein> it wont hurt
<holstein> i dont think that is the issue for him though
<holstein> its not an ardour issuse... 
<holstein> i think its making noise becuase he's trying to push too much with it
<holstein> if he comes back, we'll see... and i'll just keep quiet
<holstein> its nice having other supportes in the channel
<holstein> supporters*
<zequence> There does seem to be a tendency for other users to help out
<holstein> yup... now a days, we have a few
<zequence> Don't know if the amount of users logged in has increased much. Can't remember from before
<zequence> 36 is not a bad number
<holstein> i popped in the channel at the end of 2009 and asked a question... waited a week and asked again.. and i was the only one answering questions for the most part til recently
<holstein> i think 12.04 is solid
<holstein> attracting users again :)
<zequence> Only problem with 12.04 is jack though
<holstein> works OK for me
<holstein> so far at least
<zequence> jackdbus?
<zequence> Or jackd
<holstein> i havent had any issues doing my normal thing with 12.04
<zequence> If you stop jackdbus, eventually it crashes and stays running in the background
<zequence> You can't kill it from the system monitor
<holstein> zequence: so far, its been clean starts and stops
<zequence> holstein: jackdbus, or jackd?
<holstein> just jackd AFAIK
<zequence> jackd will work fine, but not jackdbus
<zequence> jackdbus is the default
<holstein> i didnt change anything
<holstein> i just hit start, and its been working fine
<zequence> holstein: Did you disable dbus?
<holstein> start, stop ..edit settings .. start
<holstein> zequence: not at first
<zequence> holstein: It's a known and verified bug with jackdbus, it crashing when trying to stop it
<holstein> zequence: i can test more though and see.. when i get my firewire device back over here
<zequence> One which I'm about to fix
<holstein> cool
<holstein> i had read about it.. but im not intersted in the dbus thing anyways
<zequence> Many users have had to reboot in order to be able to start jack again
<holstein> zequence: i did notice that in 12.10 in testing, but i assumed it was just me
<zequence> There's also the matter with the kernel not being as well performing as pre version 3.*
<zequence> You might get random xruns at fairly high latencies. 
<holstein> well, i get noticably better performance in 10.04 with the rt kernel from 9.10
<holstein> and falks realtime kernels
<zequence> You mean aboganis :)
<holstein> its a bit of a regression, but im still hopeful
<holstein> zequence: those are falks though.. he patched them for nvidia
<zequence> I haven't yet tested the raring kernel. 12.10 is still a bit sucky
<holstein> i suppose i might have to learn to make my own
<zequence> Don't think realtime is much better
<zequence> Haven't been for me on Debian anyway
<holstein> hmm. that sux
<zequence> Depends more on the kernel version than on realtime/lowlatency for me
<holstein> i assumed a realtime would be on par with the old one
<zequence> This is why I'll be using 2.6.37 version, no matter which release
<holstein> i might too...
<zequence> Nah, the realtime kernels have been worse since 3.0 or there around
<holstein> i like the old kernels abogani and falk had
<holstein> they work great...
<zequence> The lowlatency kernel 2.6.37 was awesome
<holstein> i need that damn nvidia driver for dual head :/
<holstein> i might look into friendlier hardware for this though...
<zequence> holstein: Here's a howto I made on building 2.6.38 lowlatency
<zequence> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/BuildOldLowlatency
<holstein> zequence: cool.. i'll bm that for later
<zequence> holstein: That is using the official ubuntu 2.6.38 kernel, and since you build not just the image, but also the headers, you'll be able to install proprietary graphic drivers
<holstein> yeah, im fuzzy on all that
<holstein> i glaze over about 3 lines in.. but thats where i am
<holstein> i think i need a basic linux class or something, if im going to properly contribute
<holstein> making my own kernel would be helpful it think
<holstein> anyways.. i gotta go to work
<zequence> holstein: Building a kernel in itself is not that difficult. But, I guess understanding each step might take a few moments to go through
<holstein> picked up thursdays and fridays at a club here from thanksgiving til the end of the year :)
<zequence> holstein: Have fun
<holstein> zequence: its pretty daunting if you literally have no idea about he jargon
<holstein> its like a question i got recently.. "whats the difference between a URL and an HTTP?"
<holstein> i mean, you gotta unwind that a bit just to even say yes or no... and thats where i am with most of this lower level stuff
<zequence> holstein: There are mostly three things to worry about. 1. vanilla or generic source? 2. make sure you have the right config file(the one that makes it -lowlatency) 3. command to build it
<holstein> im not a coder.. and im not sure i want to be, but i like learning and helping support USB
<holstein> US*
<holstein> anyways... chow! and enjoy the evening/day!
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-11-17
<smartboyhw> Hmm now since the new lowlatency-pae thing is now in precise-updates and precise-proposed (hopefully also precise-main) the images should build now....
<zequence> smartboyhw: Also, for future reference, it would be better if you don't add something to seeds that doesn't exist yet
<zequence> We don't do stuff because it's fun. We do them, cause they are needed
<zequence> But, of course, we may have fun doing it
<smartboyhw> zequence, I forgotten: When will you take over Precise kernel maintenance???
<zequence> smartboyhw: There's no exact time decided. When everything is ready for it
<smartboyhw> zequence, BTW remind ya: Approve all our blueprints before 22nd......
<zequence> Me and ScottL are working on that, yes
<zequence> I finally got jackd2 patched for raring. Awaiting review for merging
<smartboyhw> zequence, good:D
<smartboyhw> zequence, changing blueprints to approved caused me to receive a hell lot of emails:D
<len-dt> smartboyhw, the icon theme should not be added to seeds.
<smartboyhw> len-dt, why?
<smartboyhw> len-dt, it is MOST important we add it to the seeds......... (with your new version)
<len-dt> Because it has to be added to settings.
<smartboyhw> len-dt, oh........;P
<len-dt> the icons are not really a theme on there own. That is they don't change the look of the desktop.
<len-dt> they are an integral part of our menu.
<smartboyhw> len-dt, grrr first of all we need to release it....Is 0.14 released/
<len-dt> However, for them to take effect we have to make it the default theme unless we add it to hi color instead.
<len-dt> First I need to finish it.
<len-dt> It is not a rush :)
<smartboyhw> len-dt, LOL
<len-dt> So the merge is rejected. But don't worry, it will get done as needed.
<len-dt> I think I am down on the BP as doing the icons anyway.
<smartboyhw> len-dt, oh alright
<smartboyhw> BTW there is naming convention problems in Wubi (since we're the only official Ubuntu distro with two words) 
<smartboyhw> I will fix it soon. Maybe now
<len-dt> Once the icons are released, they can be tested by selecting our icon theme when running the live ISO. That show as the right icon in ubiquity... I think.
<smartboyhw> len-dt, OK
<len-dt> rejecting a merge sends out too much mail too :P
<smartboyhw> len-dt, LOL
<zequence> len-dt: I'm thinking the icon theme should belong to -desktop, not settings. And the icons in the menu should not be called by name, but by function
<zequence> I don't know how the calling of the icons work atm (haven't checked)
<zequence> This way, the menu is not depending on a icon theme
<len-dt> Which is why I was wondering if they should be added to hi color
<len-dt> I think the main thing is to get them out of pixmaps where they are now.
<len-dt> In order for the icon for ubiquity to work though, I think it has to part of a theme that is default.
<len-dt> However, once the system is installed, if the user changes the icon theme... the distro icon would change too.
<len-dt> I don't know that we can change that.
<len-dt> If I add the distro icon to hi color it will be covered by something higher up the tree.
<len-dt> However, even if I put the menu icons in hi color, our settings package depends on them being there.
<len-dt> zequence, so settings depends on icons.
<zequence> len-dt: It's up to the user, if he/she wants the distro icon there, or not
<len-dt> zequence, the icons package can put icons in two places. Our US logo can go only into our theme and the menu icons can go into hi color. All themes depend on hi color.
<len-dt> For maintenance purposes, where would someone expect to find icons? I would think in the icon package.
<zequence> The only situation when we want icons is on the ISO itself, and when the user installs -desktop. If someone installs only -settings, that person is probably not willing to change icon theme as well
<zequence> Cause, that person is probably not even using XFCE
<len-dt> The icons are not unique to xfce
<zequence> len-dt: Yea, but the menu is
<len-dt> The menu format is not and could be used othgerwise.
<smartboyhw> Now wait a minute zequence NOT ONLY THE ISO
<smartboyhw> I someones see window icons also with Xubuntu icons....
<len-dt> In fact I should try changing the name of the menu file
<len-dt> smartboyhw, we don't supply window icons.
<smartboyhw> len-dt, er I mean those at the top left of windows
<smartboyhw> If they weren't included in the applications it will use the Xubuntu ones
<len-dt> mine look like v
<smartboyhw> len-dt, looks like what?
<len-dt> Do you mean the top left of eny window or top left of the screen.
<zequence> I'm not following. Where are these icons exactly?
<smartboyhw> len-dt, first options
<len-dt> We only have the main menu icon, distro icon and some submenu icons.
<smartboyhw> Wait let me give you a screenshot
<zequence> len-dt: In either case, I don't see why the menu should depend on an icon theme. Installing -settings does not mean you are running a Ubuntu Studio distro
<len-dt> it does mean you are adding our menu... and that menu would be broken without the icons to support it.
<smartboyhw> zequence, /me agrees
<len-dt> zequence, should we then include the icons in settings?
<smartboyhw> len-dt, zequence as I say always the solution: Just copy all the icons from xubuntu-icon-theme, delete the distributor-logo in there and replace it with ours.....
<smartboyhw> Then just change icons whatever we like
<len-dt> smartboyhw, not needed
<smartboyhw> len-dt, at least I think that is easier than having long discussions about what to put in what
<zequence> len-dt: I don't think we should supply icons with settings at all. The menu should point to standard icons by their functional name, just like all the other icons in the menu. 
<len-dt> Those discusions are there anyway
<len-dt> There are no standard icons for custom submenus.
<smartboyhw> Now here
<smartboyhw> http://s13.postimage.org/55lp9drnn/Screenshot_11172012_11_12_55_PM.jpg?noCache=1353165377
<len-dt> That is why we are suppling them.
<smartboyhw> Look at the top-left corner of each window zequence 
<len-dt> The shows up really small.
<smartboyhw> len-dt, yeah sorry
<zequence> len-dt: Perhaps we can use custom functions, and if such were not available, use standard functions. I at least prefer standards
<len-dt> Fuctions? or icons?
<len-dt> The menu standard gives me one submenu (multimedia) that has so many items in it I can't find the ones I need to work without searching.
<len-dt> That is why we have a custom menu at all. The standard is broken.
<zequence> len-dt: Find icons by it's functional name. If there is no functional name existing which works, create one
<len-dt> Ok and put it where?
<zequence> I should probably look more into how all of this works. I'm not talking out of knowing the specifics, but from principle
<len-dt> zequence, That is why I was asking should we put them in hi color.
 * smartboyhw does not know why he got 3 bugs assigned to him in two days......
<len-dt> That is the standard place.
<zequence> len-dt: Give me an example of such an icon in hi color
<len-dt> zequence, the icon themes are a layered setup. hi color is the bottom layer. Any icon theme over lays that. and takes the icon in hi colors place.
<len-dt> Your question doesn't make sense.
<len-dt> Most applications put there icons in hi color.
<len-dt> Our icon theme now is about 5 layers deep.
<len-dt> We have imported the xubuntu theme, but we don't use it. We use one level down.
<len-dt> That is we depend on their depends.
<len-dt> We should fix that.
<zequence> If I am to understand how it all works, I will need to do some research. This is the only way I can speak about specifics
<zequence> I can't answer questions about specifics, if I don't know them
<len-dt> Yes.
<zequence> But, it would also be a waste of time, if someone else already has the knowledge and could to the work
<smartboyhw> zequence, that someone = len-dt :p
<len-dt> zequence, the things I think we agree on: Icons should be in there own package. the menu icons shold be theme independant.
<zequence> len-dt: Yea, that sounds right
<len-dt> Ok. The settings package will have to depend on the package that contains those generic icons.
<len-dt> I will work at making sure that our icon theme works without using the xubutu icon theme too.
<zequence> I still don't see why -settings has to depend on icons though
<len-dt> The menus have to have the icons. other wise they will all look like the utilities icon.
<zequence> Didn't you just say the menu icons should not depend on the icon theme. And that the icons should be in their own theme package?
 * smartboyhw is just too confused with what len-dt and zequence are talking about
<len-dt> The package says theme, but the reality is there are generic icons there too because we don't want to put those in settings.
<zequence> If possible, I'd like the icons in the menu to point to icons by their functional name, just as the other icons in the menu does
<len-dt> zequence, Yes but those icons have to exist.
<len-dt> They don't yet.
<len-dt> We are using icons that belong to sw packages right now.
<len-dt> In some ways I think the package should not be called icon-theme, just ubuntustudio-icons.
<zequence> No, I think we should work from the aspect that the icons belong to a theme. At least those in the menu
<len-dt> zequence, we are not really creating a theme... the theme has only one icon.
<smartboyhw> Grrr then use ubuntustudio-icon-set
<len-dt> zequence, ok, do they belong to the US theme or the generic theme.
<zequence> len-dt: How does the menu find the icons to the standard categories. Where is a file I could look at about this?
<len-dt> This is all opendesktop stuff.
<zequence> You mean freedesktop?
<len-dt> the icons are all in /usr/share/icons
<len-dt> ya freedesktop.
<zequence> I know where the icons are, but how does the menu call them?
<len-dt> The standard that xfce is bassed on.
<len-dt> Yes.
<len-dt> The menu uses some code that bounces through the icon theme structure starting at the top and working its way down till it finds an icon with the name in the *desktop file or the *.directory file.
<zequence> len-dt: Where were the *.directory files now again?
<len-dt> Each icon theme has an index.theme file
<len-dt> The directory files are in /usr/share/desktop-directories
<len-dt> The index names the next level down.
<len-dt> We could rename all of ours without the ubuntustudio part if we wanted to.
<len-dt> Make them fuction only.
<len-dt> We can do the same with our icons.
<len-dt> Right now... because all our icons are in /usr/share/pixmaps we have added the word ubuntustudio to their names
<zequence> len-dt: hicolor, isn't that a place where applications put their icons, when installed?
<len-dt> Yes.
<len-dt> That is the default icon theme.
<len-dt> Every icon theme depends on hicolor
<zequence> len-dt: I think we need to adress the icons from two separate packages. I can see the point in keeping the custom menu category icons in -settings, which would add those to hicolor. Those icons would show, no matter which theme. And any distro icon should be in a icon theme package, even if it's just a matter of one icon
<len-dt> Ok, so the one distro icon goes in theme and the rest in settings.
<zequence> So, I would suggest keeping the custom icons in -settings, and installing them to the hicolor folder. While, other icons (such as the distro logo) should be a part of a separate theme package, which inherits the theme we'd like to use as the Ubuntu Studio theme
<zequence> Yea
<len-dt> And the menu icons should have generic names that show only function.
<zequence> Yea, and we should probably name the custom menu categories after existing freedesktop names as much as possible
<len-dt> Like freedesktop category names?
<zequence> And in the long run, try to influence standard practice on freedesktop menu categorization and icon themes
<zequence> len-dt: I saw there were a lot of names here that seemed to work for us http://specifications.freedesktop.org/menu-spec/menu-spec-latest.html#additional-category-registry
<len-dt> That was my thought as well.
<zequence> Audio and Video are main categories
<zequence> And Graphics too of course
<len-dt> Photgraphy is not I think
<smartboyhw> Bye all
<zequence> Yea, but Photography is one of the Additional categories
<len-dt> mixers is there.
<zequence> Also Publishing
<zequence> midi, sequencer are two other
<len-dt> what about effects and sound gen?
<zequence> len-dt: Perhaps just redo our menu to incorporate the standards that suit us, so we don't actually change anything right now. Keep the custom menus, and leave any additional changes for the future
<zequence> I suspect it'll take a while to come up with something that makes absolute sense for much of the categories
<len-dt> I think this is my project for this cycle
<zequence> Just upgraded to Raring. The new nautilus is missing one feature, which I liked. Namely being able to open directories in tree view. 
<len-dt> Is it still called nautilus or files?
<zequence> I guess the name is Files, but the package is nautilus
<len-dt> ubuntu has been back and forth on that.
<len-dt> 12.04 was files and 12.10 was back to nautilus
<zequence> ubuntu decided to use the older nautilus for last release
<zequence> They reverted
<len-dt> files had huge changes.
<len-dt> it may have been a stabilty thing
<zequence> Yea, but these are changes made by Gnome, not Ubuntu. I think probably Ubuntu will be using Files in the future too, even though there is some objection
<zequence> No, I think it was only because of the interface change actually
<len-dt> Does it have an about anywhere?
<zequence> Personally, I think nautilus is becoming a bit too dumb for me. But, it's still the most used and best supported file manager. That'll be the reason to keep it
<len-dt> I remember trying to file a bug with it and not being able to find out what package it was.
<zequence> It's called nautilus
<zequence> But, the name in about is "Files"
<len-dt> It is more stable than thunar anyway.
<len-dt> I think stable is better than pretty
<len-dt> There seems to be a move away from the menubar
<zequence> Yea. I don't see why they can't keep "advanced settings" for people who like them
<len-dt> File a bug.
<len-dt> There may be no menubar but there is a menu.
<zequence> gnome-shell uses a one button menu in the panel, which is only now being used for other functions than "Quit". Both Web and Nautilus have two menu buttons. One in the panel, and one in the gui. Each having their own functions
<len-dt> It works well with unity as well.
<len-dt> The distributor-logo that we see now is from elementary-xfce BTW
<zequence> len-dt: Ok, so what icons would we need to keep in our own theme right now?
<len-dt> The distributor-logo.
<len-dt> Its there. just needs upload.
<zequence> len-dt: For ubiquity?
<len-dt> yes. It could be used for the mainmenu too I think.
<zequence> Or, which distributor-logo are we seeing right now, and where? The Ubuntu Studio logo, or Xubuntu?
<zequence> Never mind
<len-dt> The one we are seeing right now is xfce
<len-dt> It is not Xubuntu.
<len-dt> We are not using the Xubuntu icon theme even though we load it.
<zequence> I have to say the Ubuntu Studio logo is a real killer logo
 * len-dt only cares that it is unique and recognizable
<len-dt> I'm not much for eye candy.  :)
<len-dt> It looks like a should put the menu icon in the panel directory and should make it 22x22
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-11-18
<Len-nb> zequence, yahoo new lowlatency kernel for 12.04 downloading from update gui
<zequence> Len-nb: Check the changelog. Must be the longest list of changes in the history of Debian/Ubunut for a single package
<smartboyhw> zequence, which one?:P
<zequence> smartboyhw: linux-lowlatency for Precise
<smartboyhw> zequence, ah LOL...... 
<zequence> http://www.dickmacinnis.com/dreamstudio/dream-studio-12-04-1-official-release/
<zequence> He's including some packages that we can't as well as kxstudio ppas
<smartboyhw> zequence, oh
<zequence> One thing that I'm a little curious about is his "Dream Studio Audio Indicator"
<zequence> Which is there instead of qjackctl
<smartboyhw> zequence, btw this is the ppa
<smartboyhw> https://launchpad.net/~dreamstudio/+archive/dreamstudio-stable
<smartboyhw> zequence, btw who's dick macinnis actually?:P (Stupid question)
<zequence> smartboyhw: He's actually involved with Ubuntu Studio, concerning Art. He's in the art team
<zequence> Haven't seen him around for a long while
<zequence> I started a homepage for what I now call Linux Multimedia Controls http://www.linux-multimedia-controls.org/?q=node/1
<zequence> Will take me a few weeks to get some code in place
<zequence> This is meant to be a sort of candidate for Ubuntu Studio Controls
<zequence> It will be modular, making it possible for people to very simply add new features to it
<zequence> Either bash or python scripts
<zequence> I'll start by making it adjust some imporant settings, but somewhere further down the path, I'd like it to also be able to control both PA and jackd
<smartboyhw> zequence, good
<smartboyhw> zequence, the website is er a bit strange
<smartboyhw>  Page not found
<smartboyhw> The requested page "/?q=node/1" could not be found.
<zequence> smartboyhw: Ah, yea. I removed that page
<zequence> http://www.linux-multimedia-controls.org/
<smartboyhw> zequence, let me register:p
<zequence> smartboyhw: Let me know if it workes or not
<smartboyhw> zequence, it does
<len-dt> zequence, synfigstudio seems to jump a few releases in ubuntu. I can't look at it in 12.04.
<len-dt> re- dreamstudio, very little on the page. Uses unity though, so takes more to run than my machines will handle.
<zequence> len-dt: I just had a very quick look at synfigstudio in 13.04. Seems like something we should have
<len-dt> I certainly support fleshing out our non-audio workflows.
<len-dt> I just know that I am not the one to decide what is useful.
<smartboyhw> len-dt, ScottL, you and zequence is. (I am NOT)
<len-dt> video is not generally my thing.
<len-dt> MuseScore ... is that audio production or publishing?... Its in audio now, but should it be in publishing
<zequence> Maybe both
<zequence> It's more of a publishing app anyway
<len-dt> Type setting for music, it uses audio as an output form but it is not really an audio production application.
<len-dt> The question is where do people expect it to be :)
<zequence> I think we should start to think in terms of tags, rather than menu categories. It can both be used as a sequencer, and a publishing tool
<zequence> Our menu is well designed for multiple entries I think
<zequence> I just think it's important that you can see from the menu title that it makes sense having whatever app is inside it
<len-dt> Perhaps it should be added to the publishing menu and meta?
<zequence> I guess so. If you only install the publishing meta, you'd get it. The same with the audio meta
<len-dt> Ya that is my thought.
<zequence> And that seems fine, all though I would think most people would only expect book publishing stuff in publishing
<zequence> But, in principle, it makes sense to have MuseScore in publishing
<len-dt> It would add a sense of completeness. The only thing to look at I  think is if it is usable without jack.
<zequence> Pretty sure it is, let me check
<len-dt> Someone doing publishing probably doesn't want to deal with that.
<zequence> You might not even want audio at all even
<len-dt> The desktop comes with audio.
<len-dt> I would love to design a whole new main menu applet for the top bar. But that is probably beyond me right now.
<len-dt> I would like the main menu to only use or show sub menus if there are more than one items in the sub menu, otherwise just show that item instead of the submenu.
<zequence> Well, it works fine without jack.
<len-dt> I'll add it to publishing
<knome> http://tonywhitmore.co.uk/blog/2012/11/14/photography-workflow-on-ubuntu/
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-11-11
<cub> *waves*
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-11-12
<ttoine> hey
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-11-13
 * OvenWerks has a monitor again... with three colours even.
<zequence> OvenWerks: What were you using before?
<smartboyhw> zequence: It looks like my reverting fix was pushed in...
<zequence> smartboyhw: Yes, but was it needed anymore
<zequence> OvenWerks: Did you have a look at the changes yet, and what they do for us?
<smartboyhw> zequence: I don't know. Haven't catched up for a long time
<zequence> smartboyhw: I will write this down, and inform others later, but just in case we have this sort of thing happening again: first talk with the author (in this case OvenWerks), then make the change in our branch - not Ubuntu's. Then ask for a merge
<smartboyhw> zequence: Sure
<zequence> smartboyhw: It's different when the upstream is Debian, or KDE, or something else. In this case, we are upstream
<zequence> So, the change needs to go in our source first
<smartboyhw> Yep
<Imote> Hi
<Imote> Is there anyone here ?
<zequence> Imote: Hi. What's up?
<Imote> Zequence: nothing particular, i'm actually looking how Ubuntu Studio team work
<zequence> Imote: Stick around if you want. Possibly interested in participating?
<Imote> Imote: Maybe, I'm french ; I eventually participate for write the documentation (in french of course)
<Imote> Zequence: Maybe, I'm french ; I'm maybe interisting for participate for write the documentation (in french of course)
<zequence> Imote: Our art lead is French Belgian. The guy who has been a part of the team the longes, ttoine, is from France. Also, another guy from Belgium does some testing at times
<zequence> Documentation is always a problem. You are free to participate in writing that
<zequence> We don't have a French version of our site. I guess we could ask to have that. Someone will need to maintain it
<zequence> As for the wikis, I guess they are English only
<zequence> I know there are local sites for Ubuntu in all countries
<zequence> Some distros probably have their own local sites, like Kubuntu
<Imote> You know, the french documentation of Ubuntu and other ubuntu distros are great and full, not in english ?
<Imote> Certainly yes
<zequence> I'm sure the English docs for other distros are extensive
<zequence> But not for Ubuntu Studio
<zequence> If docs are written in any language, they should be translated though
<zequence> No reason to do the same work twice
<Imote> Yes, it's true
<zequence> Even if translating is of course a bit of work in itself
<zequence> I don't care in which language it is written, as long as someone is willing to do it
<Imote> yes but more easy compared to write entirely the text
<Imote> So i'm actually looking for get involved ; I don't know how this big engine work
<zequence> Yes, if there is already a structure and content, all one needs to is worry about formulations
<zequence> Debian/Ubuntu/Ubuntu Studio is a big engine, but just Ubuntu Studio is quite small
<zequence> If you are serious about documentation, you will find that you can work pretty freely
<Imote> Ok. If I continue, how can I do ? I'm just suscribing to the ubuntu studio devel, and after ? Any forum to present me or other thing ?
<zequence> Imote: No hurry. We actually don't have any documentation at all for users right now, so you would be working from scratch
<zequence> Imote: We don't need so much docs for desktop usage. Only for our workflows, audio, video, graphics, etc
<zequence> Imote: Also, for installing, a bit about how Ubuntu Studio differs from other Ubuntu distros
<zequence> Imote: Here's a bit of structure for inspiration https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudio/UserGuide
<zequence> Imote: Once you feel - "Ok, I would like to start working on this" - let me know, and we can organize things a bit
<zequence> It's good to get some feedback while working, and we should document at least vaguely what is being done, and who is doing it
<zequence> That's about it
<zequence> If it takes you 1 month, or 3 years is up to you
<Imote> Yes I see. I think about it and I give a review shortly. I not want start for stop 2 days after and lost your time
<knome> zequence, remind me what you're using for docs again? docbook?
<knome> zequence, we've just been poking at docs translations, you might want to take advantage of us having to go through that
<zequence> knome: We don't use anything at all currently
<zequence> knome: Are you using docbook?
<knome> yep
<knome> then we convert it to .html to be used in the image
<zequence> Aha
<knome> but i suppose things like yelp or so could be used to read docbook directly
<knome> i have no idea.
<zequence> Imote: knome is the project lead for Xubuntu. As you see, we should probably poke them for technical advice
<knome> Imote, hallo!
<zequence> Imote: It's impossible for you to waste anyones time here. Take the time you need. It may sometimes take a couple of years to get started, as was the case with me
<zequence> ;)
<Imote> Knome: hello ;) ; Zequence: Great !
<knome> starting takes time, but stopping takes more time
<zequence> That it does.
<Imote> Yes so true ! How many persons work actively on Ubuntu studio ?
<Imote> If I dont lost a link, I find only one page of documentation for Ubuntu Studio in french, in ubuntu doc : http://doc.ubuntu-fr.org/ubuntu_studio
<Imote> The Ubuntu docs is very useful and full, so what is needed to be write for the Ubuntu Studio's doc ?
<zequence> Imote: I had never seen that page before
<zequence> I think often people write their docs independently. 
<Imote> And Xubuntu page here : http://doc.ubuntu-fr.org/xubuntu
<zequence> Imote: This is our wiki https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/
<Imote> This links are twice when we Write ubuntu studio or Xubuntu in google
<zequence> Here's a page about our team structure https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/TeamStructure
<Imote> (In france country of course)
<Imote> Yes, i see the team structure
<zequence> Currently, I'm the only guy in the docs team, all though there have been other people interested in contributing, such as cub, who like me lives in Sweden
<zequence> Imote: This our planning, in the form of blueprints https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Blueprints
<zequence> There's one topic for Documentation
<knome> i just updated my time commitment for website :)
<knome> zequence, are you not subscribed to UbuntuStudio/* wiki pages?
<zequence> knome: I'm not that organized :P
<zequence> Usually, not many but me edit them anyway
<zequence> I guess I should
<knome> zequence, you know how to do it?
<knome> i mean, non-manually, subscribing to all of them...
<zequence> knome: Nope
<knome> zequence, go to the wiki. click on your username on the navigation. then click notification. in the "subscribed..." textarea, add a line saying "UbuntuStudio/.*" (without the quotes) and click save
<Imote> I can't acces to roadmap of Trusty, it's normal ?
<knome> you're done.
<Imote> Or i've no permission to see it so
<knome> Imote, which page?
<Imote> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/topic-saucy-flavor-ubuntustudio
<Imote> I'm not legged in I do it
<Imote> *logged
<zequence> Imote: That links is wrong. Let me change it
<zequence> Imote: In the "Blueprints overview", the main topic is the roadmap for Trusty
<zequence> Ok, link working now
<Imote> Zequence: Okay :)
<zequence> knome: Thanks
<knome> np
<Imote> I go now, maybe i back tomorrow :) I don't know what is your hour but for me it's time to sleep ; good night to all :)
<zequence> Imote: Good night. Hope to see you around :)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-11-14
<OvenWerks> zequence: I was sharing a monitor between my wifes computer and mine... then hers got moved so I found an old crt... minus green :P
<OvenWerks> Anyway upgraded my video card from an nvidia TNT2 to a geforce 6200. The old one was starting to streak (dry caps i guess). the new one has digital out, so that shouldn't be a problem. The MB is agp so that is why it is not one of the intel cards.
<OvenWerks> It was cheaper to buy a low end 24in tv than a "real" monitor. 13**x7** is a bit low for resolution, but it works fine. The card has two outputs so I may (when I can) get a second one.
<zequence> madeinkobaia: Hi. Sorry I haven't answered you yet
<zequence> been a little busy
<madeinkobaia> Hi zequence :) hi all
<Imote> Hello guys ?
<knome> hello Imote 
<Imote> How are you ?
<knome> all good here, and you?
<Imote> Same for me shure ! Happy for ever
<knome> heh
<Imote> Yes !
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-11-16
<OvenWerks> Just some thoughts... I know there are not that any people here right now, but, what things about the way the desktop is do you find anoying/confusing?
<OvenWerks> I think I will be more vocal about this in the ML
<holstein> i think JACK is a mess, still
<holstein> just clicking on something like ardour will not typically make audio start to work
<holstein> it basically either crashes something, or starts JACK in the background, potentially making audio not work
<holstein> not sure what to do about this
<holstein> i think we might still have an identity issue as well.. is the desktop for audio? video? graphics?
<holstein> if its for video, "why doesnt it include my favorite editor, which is the best option in linux".. they say
<holstein> i *really* like the idea of adding the studio workflows to any DE
<holstein> it gets back to a sort of idea that cory came in with.. basically not having a particular "release" of an official kind, but maintaining packages and meta packages
<holstein> OvenWerks: what do you find "annoying"?
<holstein> OvenWerks: that mute bug is a drag.. and the screensaver/locker looks *bad*
<zequence> holstein: That is one thing I've been planning to work on this cycle
<zequence> might require a wrapper script for each application that can use jack
<zequence> or, upstream changes. Trying to create some sort of standard
<holstein> its tough
<holstein> i think falk is looking at that as well
<zequence> really? I should talk with him about that then
<holstein> wont hurt
<holstein> im sure he'd share
<zequence> Just makes sense we don't do more than one solution to that problem
<holstein> why break tradition ;)
<zequence> hehe
<holstein> seems like we could talk everyone upstream into leaving that lock screen
<OvenWerks> holstein: I was talking about desktop stuff itself
<OvenWerks> Take a quick look at the email I sent to the list
<OvenWerks> I agree the way Jack works is not the best either though.
<zequence> OvenWerks: We haven't really discussed changing the desktop at all. I know some people are wanting to do that, but that would be in contrast with the idea that we base our DE and settings entirely on existing packages
<zequence> In which case, we would do no customization at all
<zequence> The whole idea with Ubuntu Studio is after all to work on anything, not just our own setup
<OvenWerks> Ok. I can live wit5h that
<zequence> I'm not against us having a default DE setup though. 
<OvenWerks> If we do I would like to make sure there is nothing that slows down productivity
<zequence> That sort of stuff is so personalÃ¶
<zequence> I think the menu is already doing the biggest job in enhancing productivity
<zequence> would be nice to have better controls for audio, and that is a goal for ubuntustudio-controls
<OvenWerks> Some of it is... and those thing should be left alone in some sort of sane "everyone does it this way" default
<OvenWerks> There are two things that right now I feel can get in the way. In particular of new users
<OvenWerks> Having the scroll wheel skip through desktops is one.
<OvenWerks> To someone coming from the normal world where extra desktops don't exist... It can be disturbing to ones workflow
<zequence> Today having multiple workspaces is becoming standard
<zequence> on IOS and android, so I don't fully agree there
<zequence> Even OSX does it these days
<zequence> I can agree on that the expected behaviour of double clicking the top panel of a window is to make it maximized, and so it is on many DEs
<OvenWerks> The person not used to it, scrolling on the focused window, all of a sudden finds themselves transported to a blank screen.
<zequence> It's a nice feature I think. Would be better in that case to prepare a short introduction to the desktop, when first logging in
<OvenWerks> Ok we can make a title bar double click do that...  it was doing a "rollup".
<zequence> On XFCE, the rollup is traditional, is it not?
<OvenWerks> I'll check what the current default is
<OvenWerks> OK, but what do we want?
<zequence> Let's add those suggestions to the -desktop blueprint
<zequence> or, -default-settings
<OvenWerks> Someone coming from a windows audio environment already has to learn linux audio and apps, do they need to learn a totally new DE as well?
<zequence> madeinkobaia has some rather radical ideas for a Ubuntu Studio theme, and he's probably also intrested in looking at changing the DE
<OvenWerks> Ok, maybe he is the better one to do it then
<OvenWerks> Should we include Writer by default?
<zequence> I don't think one person should decide everything. It's best to have some discussion about the whole direction we want to go towards
<OvenWerks> right now we just have an installer and it installes all of libreoffice
<zequence> Yes, I think it would make sense to include LibreOffice, but let's not decide that now. 
<zequence> The proper way would be for someone to pick up the entire publishing workflow, and do research, list applications, and make decisions based on that
<OvenWerks> Kubuntu include Loffice, but it is not on the iso, it is downloaded/installed on install to disk.
<OvenWerks> Do we have people to do that?
<zequence> OvenWerks: Sure. Us :)
<zequence> I personally have other priorities before I would get to that
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-11-17
<OvenWerks> zequence, knome: http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntustudio/dvd/current/ still has old saucy images in it. Who do we ask to have it cleaned?
 * OvenWerks is downloading a trusty iso so he can test changes against it
<knome> OvenWerks, would first check if people in -release know what's going on, then maybe ask #canonical-sysadmin
<OvenWerks> knome: Thanks
<knome> no problem
<knome> tell me if you need more help with it
<OvenWerks> I don't think you have the access :)
<knome> i don't, but if poking those places do not seem to help...
#ubuntustudio-devel 2014-11-14
<holstein> zequence: i never said nor implied anything to the contrary
<holstein> zequence: the user had gone before i could elaborate.. he was asking about how the RT kernel (that Alessio *did* maintain) was created
<holstein> zequence: i never said you didnt maintain the kernel
<zequence> holstein: No, I just mean if someone wants to know about the kernel, it's easy enough to ask me about it
<zequence> It's pretty much the same kernel that Alessio built
<zequence> We don't have a wiki page for it, but the diff in configs is in the source
<zequence> May be hard for someone to find it, if they don't know what they are looking for though
<cub> Good day, all
<zequence> cub: Hello there
<zequence> cub: I'm doing an Audacity course in GBG. Documenting it here, in Swedish http://linux.itlyftet.se/audacity/
<zequence> Doing mostly youtube videos
<zequence> Not recording any voice, as I hate doing that myself
<zequence> Good to have the experience if we go forward doing tutorials for Ubuntu Studio
<cub> Hi zequence 
<cub> cool with your course!
<cub> I have been too busy with work, family and bostadrÃ¤ttsfÃ¶rening to be able to do anything else this year. :/
<cub> Anyways, just wanted to pop in to say hi!
<holstein> zequence: sure.. if someone else asks me specifically for kernel build scripts for a realtime kernel, i'll be sure i ping you
<holstein> i dont feel i gave misinformation...
<holstein> i *didnt* have time to respond to the comment about who was in charge of the kernel.. 
<zequence> holstein: Wasn't accusing you of misinformation :). Just giving you some in case anyone else comes asking around. 
<zequence> There's no patch for our kernel, so I'm not the best person to ask about RT kernels
<zequence> There are just a few configs that you need to make in order to have any kernel on any distro become a -lowlatency kernel
<zequence> Could be that on some distros there are a few more config changes required, in order to get what we have - but ours compared to the generic Ubuntu kernel is very close
#ubuntustudio-devel 2014-11-16
<out_of_color> hi!
<holstein> out_of_color: this would be the place
<holstein> !contribute
<ubottu> To contribute and help out with Ubuntu, see http://community.ubuntu.com and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ContributeToUbuntu
<holstein> out_of_color: have you joined the development list?
<out_of_color> i only have a few and simple ideas i guess it will not wort joining the development list
<out_of_color> *worth
<holstein> out_of_color: well, if you mean suggestions, yeah, its probably not worth joining unless you want to actually take something on
<holstein> you are welcome to, though.. the project needs help, for sure.. and you can always make suggestions here and/or on the mailing list..
<out_of_color> i guess that the white color on tuxguitar and muse (piano roll) should be changed to a darker one
<holstein> out_of_color: is that in the theme? or in those applications? if its in those specific applications, i would just go upstream to them and askk
<out_of_color> you mean asking the apps developers?
<holstein> out_of_color: we dont change the colors of anything, specifically.. 
#ubuntustudio-devel 2015-11-09
<zequence> Apparently someone has been nice and translated our ubiquity slides to German. And, probably other languages as well
<zequence> Did a German install to double check a possible bu
<zequence> bug
#ubuntustudio-devel 2015-11-10
<zequence> USC to be replaces by Gnome's "Software"
<zequence> http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2015/11/the-ubuntu-software-centre-is-being-replace-in-16-04-lts
<zequence> "Software" has a whole new way of updating the system. The updates are installed during a restart, rather while logged in. 
<DalekSec> ...So they require you to restart more?
<zequence> If you use it
<zequence> I know some people mess up their systems cause they interrupted an update
<zequence> Easily fixed for someone like us, but not for a greenie
<DalekSec> So back to windows days where if you update your browser you need to restart and restarting takes forever due to installing updates?
<zequence> I once earned some money helping a guy doing an update from the TTY since he was not able to login graphically because of an interrupted update
<zequence> He had called a lot of businesses in town. All of them said, reinstall
<zequence> Was a standard Ubuntu install
<zequence> Not sure if "software" is the way to go, but I would at least add some auto-recovery thing that happens when you boot, and the system realizes an update had been interrupted
<DalekSec> dpkg can recover from a lot of stuff, actually.  Just have to hit it hard enough.  Yeeeah, I'm not fond of Windows style updates, doesn't matter too much since I won't be using it either way, but still.
<zequence> Sure, dpkg works fine, if the user knows how to use it. Shouldn't be too hard to add a script that checks and fixes during boot
#ubuntustudio-devel 2015-11-12
<zequence> I've been working on some sort of system for sharing passwords within the PR and Support team
<zequence> protonmail is one simple variant
<zequence> I mention this, but also explain how to do it by encrypting a textfile here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/PublicRelationsDocumentation#Sharing_Passwords_Between_Team_Members
<zequence> I will be sending passwords to all team members once I have them set up
<zequence> Only the project lead will be able to change them
<zequence> Which is me, right now. But, maybe someone else would like to be PR and Support lead?
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-11-19
<eylul> ok so.. I'll email about this later in the week but.. as a status update
<eylul> talked to kubuntu-devel team about krita. They were very helpful, unfortunately it looks like their hands are also tied until the package comes through on deb side. I'll have to contact the kde maintainers on debian next. 
<eylul> we do however have options even if this doesn't work out, in forms of snaps and getting the krita package going through the ubuntu queue. I'll work next week on pursuing this issue further
<eylul> Also got in touch with a godot-devel team member who has looked into packaging of godot-engine for debian. that one ends up being more complicated through. Essentially there are aspects to the program that causes policy issues with packaging it with debian. There is some current work being done to bring the package to fedora that will also benefit a potential debian package, but less sure how to proceed on that one.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-11-20
<sakrecoer> nice eylul !! :)
<eylul> krytarik
<eylul> sakrecoer
<eylul> you have been formally tagged.
<krytarik> :D
<sakrecoer> pong
<eylul> heh
<sakrecoer> topic: website i suppose
<eylul> ok so, just to clarify for everyone, this is not a formal meeting or anything but since we are all here.. might as well discuss this on the devel. and yes
<eylul> ok so.. the situation is that sakrecoer poked in october we have not received an answer. right?
<sakrecoer> correct
<sakrecoer> tbh, i have a fair bit confusion about what is wrong and with what...
<eylul> ok so the main problem is this
<sakrecoer> as far as i understand, the community theme is standard way of doing things with WP, but IS are not doing it the standard way...
<eylul> wordpress's theme system has cascading styles.
<eylul> so when you modify a theme, the common way to do so, is to create a child theme, that only includes parts that varies from the parent
<eylul> this way the changes are modular, and you don't have any updates to parent theme erasing your work,
<eylul> or being forced to stick to an old version of the theme you use, until you manually port the updates.
<eylul> that is what we did to community theme
<eylul> we added a bit of css and one new page type
<eylul> by creating a child theme
<eylul> this works in our stage. 
<eylul> but apparently ubuntu's wordpress install does something weird with the theme paths in the webserver
<eylul> normally each theme sits at wp-themes/<theme name>
<eylul> but in this case the themes sit at wp-themes/<theme name>/<theme name>
<eylul> this causes the link from our child theme referring to our parent theme (community theme) to break
<eylul> so we have several options: 
<eylul> 1) try to convince ubuntu IS to change to fix this to a normal wordpress setting. Pros: permanent solution that is best practice. Cons: it might not be possible since this is not our decision to make
<eylul> (or at least take a long time to escalate our ticket to this)
 * sakrecoer is quitely reading
<eylul> 2) we change the parent theme information in a way that it reflects the directory tree correctly Pro: keeps our child theme still separate, instant solution. Cons: pretty bad hack (the parent theme names aren't supposed to contain a path, just a name.), this will break if the directory structure changes on ubuntu side back to normal. 
<sakrecoer> ok.. thank you!
<sakrecoer> what do you guys think is the best option? krytarik eylul ?
<eylul> 3) we put all of the changes onto the community parent theme (so think we fork the community theme, rather than creating a child that appends it) Pros: will work whatever happens, again we can solve this on our end. Cons: not best practice, hard to split our changes out later in future, we don't get to benefit from updates to community theme
<eylul>  /done
<sakrecoer> oh...
<sakrecoer> sorry
<eylul> (np)
<eylul> my suggestion is to do either 2 or 3. (I did initially advocate for 3, but I concede to krytarik's point from our discussion yesterday that this is pretty bad down the line)
<eylul> overall through I am ok to go with whatever you decide
<eylul> (krytarik?)
<krytarik> Well, I still want to push a little bit for the most proper solution at least (1.) - then if it becomes clear one way or another that it's not gonna happen, go with 2.
<eylul> *nods*
 * eylul just realizes she might have another idea. - krytarik do you have the link to knome's theme repo at hand? (the one they pull from?)
<sakrecoer> ok, i feel like 1) sounds the most proper!
<krytarik> eylul: Not the upstream one, but the one they'd be pulling from: https://code.launchpad.net/~knome/ubuntu-community-wordpress-theme/trunk
<sakrecoer> can we try to set a deadline for trying that push?
<sakrecoer> like at some point, if nothing happens from IS side, we are going to need to go with another option
 * eylul agrees with sakrecoer
<eylul> I think we MIGHT have a 4th option btw
<eylul> sorry I just literally realized this
<eylul> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~knome/ubuntu-community-wordpress-theme/trunk/files
<eylul> check the filestructure here
<eylul> I think what is happening might be that, they are simply creating a folder for each theme and pulling it in, not realizing, the directory they pull has the folder in it
<krytarik> Well, they *asked* him to do it that way..
<eylul> ....
<eylul> ugh
<eylul> oh well
<eylul> nvm then
<eylul> (I assume you knew what I was going to suggest)
<eylul> ok so..
<eylul> back to 3 options.
<sakrecoer> ok, so how do we go about 1)
<sakrecoer> do you want to try stepping in the thread krytarik ?
<krytarik> Not really. :P
<eylul> oh-kay
<sakrecoer> ok... the thing is, while eylul did  a great job explaining the problem, my understanding is very superfecial.
<sakrecoer> hehe
<sakrecoer> *superficial
<krytarik> And btw, they'd have to respond sometime either way.. :P
<eylul> it doesn't hurt somebody who understands wordpress better being the lead on this through 
<sakrecoer> ok, so i will just write and see if i can get a response, maybe i may add you to CC?
<eylul> rather than the telephone situation happening via sakrecoer. :) 
<sakrecoer> eylul is right
<eylul> (not that sakrecoer has been awesome about it)
<sakrecoer> but i could just poke this time. like "hello wassap?"
<eylul> and while sakrecoer and I suppose I can take the initiative on this, it would be really great (if you have the time/energy to do so), as the person who has put most of the work on the theme
<eylul> but no pressure. 
<eylul> *gives krytarik a few moments to think*
<krytarik> Well, I'd really like to avoid being 'another person that isn't the project lead' there.
<eylul> oh-kay. putting on my (relatively) newbie hat here
<sakrecoer> but, you sort of are the website lead krytarik :)
 * eylul agrees with sakrecoer
<eylul> krytarik would it help if you were the designated website lead? 
<krytarik> How about sakrecoer just follows up on his last post there, and links back to knome's?  It's that easy.
<sakrecoer> link back to knome's?
<sakrecoer> knome's what?
<krytarik> Post - they've been outright ignoring that one.
<sakrecoer> ok i get it.
<sakrecoer> i can do that?
<sakrecoer> i mean
<sakrecoer> i can do that *!
<krytarik> :D
<krytarik> Also, could link the logs of this discussion, if it helps.
<sakrecoer> you mean, this diskussion?
<sakrecoer> like, here in IRC now
<krytarik> Yep.
<krytarik> The options are all listed up there.
<eylul> (it might be easier to copy paste it from the logs, rather than have them dig through trying to figure out what part we refer to. support people deal with a lot of tickets)
<krytarik> eylul: Thanks for putting that together so nicely, btw!
<eylul> no problem at all :) 
<sakrecoer> ok. so i will do that :)
<eylul>  \o/
<eylul> alright so.. shall we touch base on this next week?
<sakrecoer> ok!
<sakrecoer> i'm up for that!
<eylul> this works for me. krytarik?
<krytarik> Well, I think I'll be around then anyway.. :P
<eylul> heh ok
<eylul> alright then
<eylul> off with the website issue
<eylul> sakrecoer, before I forget. I know you have been traveling, so not sure if you saw, but chimois had a new version of the boot image
<eylul> maybe one of us could also work with him, regularly, every 2 weeks or so, to touch base? 
<sakrecoer> eylul: no i missed that...
<eylul> let me see if I can find the link. one sec
<eylul> *chamois
<eylul> I keep mistyping
<krytarik> \o/
<sakrecoer> \o/
<sakrecoer> cool guys!
<sakrecoer> and gals!
<sakrecoer> and robots!
<sakrecoer> i have to log off! thanks eylul and krytarik ! :)
<sakrecoer> read you soon!
<eylul> (12:41:14 AM) chamois: Hello everyone! http://pasteall.org/pic/index.php?id=108733
<eylul> there
<eylul> and bye sakrecoer
<sakrecoer> thanks!
<eylul> np. alright guys see you next week, if not before
<sakrecoer> bye! \o
<eylul> bye.
<OvenWerks> Hmm, well that time certainly didn't work for me... won't ever for that matter.
<OvenWerks> Not that I have been able to contribute much anyway.
<eylul> OvenWerks: is there a time range that works better for you? 
<eylul> (and again this was more of an impromptu thing mostly to figure out what to do about the website issue, but all the same. :))
<OvenWerks> I would say just about anything... Sunday mornings I am always out till about 2pm here (-700... or is it -800 now?)
<eylul> Alright. (Sakrecoer, Krytarik, see above)
<OvenWerks>  I have weekdays from utc 1200ish till 14 ish I am getting kids out to school (7am till 830 here)
<eylul> I'd say UTC early evenings have the most chance to work overall when we want to get most people together. anything earlier people are generally sleeping in USA side (or have work)
<eylul> (family stuff etc)
<OvenWerks> I'm retired, so my "busy" times are when someone else in the family needs me :)
<eylul> :D
<eylul> that's fair
<OvenWerks> I do sleep
<eylul> I think we all do
<OvenWerks> but generally get up around 6am
<eylul> ok so anytime that is not sunday mornings and not early afternoon european time. 
<OvenWerks> Robin from Ardour seems to never sleep
<eylul> hahah
<OvenWerks> I often see him around at 3am his time
<eylul> I am fairly certain 6am your time might be too early for krytarik. I rarely see him around before evenings (EU ones)
<eylul> :D they might simply be a nightowl
<eylul> I am usually up and about at 3am my time ;)
<OvenWerks> By about 10pm I stop making too much sense anyway...
<eylul> :D
<OvenWerks> I was thinking my wake up time could relax a bit when I retired, but my wife gets up at 530...
<eylul> :) 
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-11-11
<Eickmeyer> teward: Have you spun-up a test for the new website theme? Eylul went over it and couldn't find anything obfuscated.
<teward> Not yet but my code review turned up nothing either
<teward> Iâd say just use it
<teward> I have a lot of crazy atm to deal with
<Eickmeyer> teward: Ack.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: jack_mixer: has error messages on run. It does run. It complains about not having lash (yeah!) which is fine. It also complains about "Cannot load Python bindings for GConf"
<OvenWerks> Which means preferences will be lost from run to run.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Yeah, i noticed that. Did you save the mixer? Also, I noticed that jack-mixer is pretty much dead.
<OvenWerks> I figured that may be true as well.
<Eickmeyer> Honestly, the mixer functions in Ardour are far superior.
<OvenWerks> but... it is written in python.
<OvenWerks> If all someone wants is a jack output mixer, Ardour is a bit much to load
<OvenWerks> but it does have a c componant it looks like
<OvenWerks> but a c bit would probably not need to be kept up. The python will be 2 and the gtk is probably 2 as well
<Eickmeyer> It's both python 2 and gtk2. Unless it can be upgraded to python3, it might be dead.
<Eickmeyer> As in, we might have to remove it from the seed.
<Eickmeyer> Last release was 2014.
 * OvenWerks is getteing tired of loosing sw that works fine for these kinds of reasons.
<Eickmeyer> Hmmm...
<OvenWerks> if jack_mixer a separate package on it's own?
<Eickmeyer> trebmuh: You had the last commit to jack-mixer. Got any thoughts?
<OvenWerks> s/if/is/
<Eickmeyer> Yes. It's jack-mixer, not jack_mixer.
<Eickmeyer> https://salsa.debian.org/multimedia-team/jack-mixer/tree/master/debian
<Eickmeyer> Rather... https://salsa.debian.org/multimedia-team/jack-mixer
<OvenWerks> the question is if it is easier to fix this or package nonmixer
<OvenWerks> or build a whole new one.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: That's the thing. In order to package NSM or Nonmixer, the entire non suite has to be packaged. BUT, it relies on git checkouts, which is non-ideal.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Also, a deal-breaker for me is that Non Mixer doesn't take MIDI. OSC only.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: ya, jack-mixer is better that way, but doesn't load plugins... of course nonmixer is lv1 only.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Yep, which makes no sense to me.
<OvenWerks> The ideal thing IMO, would be a mixer that is integrated into the jack back end
<Eickmeyer> Might be easier to update to Python 3 for jack-mixer, but that might require a fork.
<OvenWerks> but that will not happen
<OvenWerks> I am willing to do a fork for that purpose.
<OvenWerks> the gtk could be updated to 3 as well
<OvenWerks> I think glade will take the gtk file and hilite things that need to be changed
<OvenWerks> Maybe I should revisit gtkmaster after that.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: If I feel u0p to it I will fork->fix->pr upstream as well
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Ok, sounds good. We can fork it to ubuntustudio-jack-mixer or something like that? nm, I'll leave it up to you.
<OvenWerks> be nice if it could see keyboard vol-up/down as well :)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-11-16
<Eickmeyer[m]> OvenWerks: Good news: I packaged avldrums and... it works. Had to also package lv2vst as a build dependency.
<OvenWerks> Cool sounds great.
<OvenWerks> avldrums is the drums for those who don't want to learn drumgizmo :)
<Eickmeyer[m]> Took me 5 hours. Lots of lintian cleanup yet, but at least it builds.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Also, FTBFS on ppc and s390x, but I really don't care, I'll proabably fix the control file to not build for those.
<Eickmeyer[m]> teward: If you're available, update for raysession, ready at lp:raysession
<OvenWerks> ppc and win xp are c++99, ardour will be dropping them either 6.0 or 6.1 I think
<OvenWerks> Maybe not ppc linux of course.
<teward> *Yawns*
<teward> what do you need my attention for?
<teward> been busy running errands lol
<teward> Eickmeyer[m]: is this a new upstream release?
<teward> if so the upstream branch is not updated
<teward> Eickmeyer[m]: do you use gitbuildpackage for this or gitubuntu?
<teward> i ask because `gbp buildpackage` says it failed to checkout
<teward> and failed to repro the tarball
<teward> Eickmeyer[m]: NACK on upload.  Lintian failure, policy violation.
<teward> https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/rNnKGDZzGN/
<teward> s/NACK on upload/Upload request REJECTED, reason: /
<teward> full build logs with Lintian run (sbuild): http://paste.ubuntu.com/p/VmF36tTVy4/
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-11-17
<Eickmeyer> teward: I know it's late, but added a patch to fix the hard error.
<OvenWerks> wonko: hmm, it would be really nice if I could save a list of lists to config :)
<OvenWerks> wonko: for example a list of pulse [[port names],[endpoint]]
<OvenWerks> wonko: it looks like I will have to have a "none" place holder
<OvenWerks> wonko: so two params: pulse_in: name1 name2 and then pulse_in_ends: end1 end2
<OvenWerks> wonko: if the name does not have an end (connection) then it will be "none" cause "" will not work.
<OvenWerks> wonko: but the gui will have to show "" (blank)
<wonko> You could make your life a lot easier if you got past your dislike of yaml/json and used that for the config file. :)
<wonko> Sorry, work got super busy. Next week's calendar is very light so I'll shoot down and do some work on this with you.
<OvenWerks> wonko: I have been slow as well. autojack now takes a list of names... controls still needs to generate that list.
