#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-06-21
<Cheri703> Just realized I may have a conflict for the meeting on wednesday, but will do my best to attend :)
<AlanBell> http://www.ukoln.ac.uk/events/devcsi/accessibility_hackdays/programme/index.html
<AlanBell> I am not going to that, but thought it might be interesting 
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-06-22
<w0jrl> hello everyone
<AlanBell> I did a bit of a surprise interview on the Ubuntu UK podcast yesterday about accessibility in Ubuntu
<AlanBell> as in, I was surprised by it!
<AlanBell> the recording should be out in a few days, hope it sounds OK
<w0jrl> @AlAnBell looking forword to it.
<meetingology> w0jrl: Error: "AlAnBell" is not a valid command.
<w0jrl> looking forword to it.
<w0jrl> Are you having any luck with Unity?
<AlanBell> no, totally broke it on my machine
<AlanBell> I was trying to build compiz to add text cursor tracking to the zoom plugin
<AlanBell> now I have broken unity
<w0jrl> I'm playing with it, and the accessibility looks promising. However switching windows is a pain.
<charlie-tca> From #ubuntu-desktop on 2011-06-21 (didrocks):
<charlie-tca> orca seems to tell that it's happy with Qt a11y :)
<charlie-tca> for people waiting to test: install qt and qt-at-spi from the ubuntu-desktop ppa
<charlie-tca> then, by default, a11y isn't activated
<charlie-tca> if you want to activate it: export QT_ACCESSIBILITY=1
<charlie-tca> (should make some application a little bit more crashy, but it's acceptable for now)
<AlanBell> is the meeting tonight Pendulum?
<Pendulum> afaik, yes
<Pendulum> will change topic and send e-mail to the list when I am a little more awake
 * AlanBell tickles Pendulum
 * Pendulum updates agenda
<Pendulum> or at least I will if I can figure out what should be on it ;-)
<Pendulum> and if I can sign into the wiki
<Pendulum> signing into the wiki is the bigger barrier
<Pendulum> ah.. finally
<Pendulum> AlanBell: are you making it to the meeting?
<charlie-tca> signing in is hard now, but the pages are working
<AlanBell> Pendulum: yup
<Pendulum> can someone look at the agenda and let me know if it looks good? (and feel free to add/edit!)
<AlanBell> I think there may be some interesting new stuff for testing that we should publicise
<AlanBell> like some Qt stuff, and any developments in ubiquity
<Pendulum> maco: will you be around for meeting?
<Pendulum> (just becaue I know maco's done a lot of the Ubiquity stuff)
<charlie-tca> It is pretty hard for normal users to test that stuff, actually
<maco> when?
<AlanBell> just over 3 hours from now
<maco> Cheri703 actually has some ubiquity patches she should send me ;-)
<maco> oh oh
<maco> i have commit access to ubiquity now!
<Cheri703> yes, yes I do
 * Cheri703 goes to do that
<maco> Pendulum: yes i'll be around
<maco> Cheri703: bzr diff    <-- generates a patch
 * Cheri703 will just email you the files
<maco> the Kubuntu Ubiquity is still too broken to get to the part where i try to make it setup kaccessible on new installs
<maco> by which i mean:  i fixed one crash!   but there wasn't just one...
<Pendulum> urgh... dear gmail send my e-mail please :(
<Cheri703> maco: sent
<Cheri703> I will try to make it for the meeting, at 3 I'm going off to teach teenage girls how to do some outdoor cooking and start fires without matches...
<Cheri703> but I don't know when I'll be done. I'll be taking my netbook, and can tether with my phone, so I'll try to hop on
<maco> Cheri703: firesteel + tinder? or charpaper + sticks?
<Cheri703> flint & steel (with char cloth), steel wool & batteries, and possibly one or two others, we'll see
<Cheri703> and we're cooking sloppy joes in the dutch oven, corn over the grill, and doing baked apples in a fire
<maco> cool
<maco> im taking a firesteel & tinder to Pennsic. ive heard coring a turnip and stuffing the middle with herbs and oil, then plugging the hole with a clove of garlic, wrap in foil, and throw on fire for 1-2 hours = yummy
<Cheri703> yeah, every year church has "girls camp" and I went when I was younger, and so I help teach some of the stuff. most of it they can do there, but for some reason they chose a facility that will not let them make their own fires or cook their own food -_- that was always a big/fun part when i went
<Cheri703> nice
<paul_h> hi, could someone point me at the specific blueprint mentioned in the agenda for this evening's meeting?
<Pendulum> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/community-o-accessibility-team
<Pendulum> sorry, meant to put that in the agenda, but somehow didn't manage to do it
<paul_h> Pendulum: thanks. btw the date is wrong on the agenda page too
<Pendulum> ta
<Pendulum> did my e-mail make it to the list?
<Pendulum> (like an hour ago or so was when I tried to send it)
<AlanBell> don't think so
<AlanBell> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-accessibility/2011-June/date.html#start nope
<paul_h> not sure, need to resubscribe to it. my email address has changed
 * Pendulum resends
<paul_h> as for the archives. I think there's quite a long delay between messages sent appearing on there
<Pendulum> argh, so annoyed with the wiki issues like having to resign in every time I want to do anything
<paul_h> Pendulum: that email worked
<AlanBell> no delay on the archives https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-accessibility/2011-June/005290.html
<Pendulum> now I just have to not hurt myself between now and the end of the meeting :)
<Pendulum> despite my current wish to part my head from the rest of my body
<paul_h> will TheMuso be at the meeting do we know? didn't see a response to my meeting time suggestion from him
<Pendulum> and I have no idea
<Pendulum> bah
<Pendulum> paul_h: I have no idea, unfortunately. I hope so!
<paul_h> on the blueprint it says approved by Kate Stewart, who is she?
<maco> ubuntu's RElease Manager
<maco> her approving them is how we got a chart on http://status.ubuntu.com
<paul_h> wow never seen that site before
<maco> it's new
<maco> the charts used to go to the wiki, but the wiki is a big pile of fall-over-and-die, so now there's a not-crashing website for it
<paul_h> yeah I was having fun with the wiki the other day. was trying to see if I could edit the meeting agenda page but it just wouldn't log me in. kept getting proxy errors
<phillw> paul_h: a little snippet of information has arrived in my inbox, from the TL of the Australian LoCo regarding Wiki.... "The wiki is in a state of upgrade, they appear to have load issues on the login side of things but it's definitely still being looked at. It seems to work fine sometimes and other times be a bit slow. I've noticed some 502 proxy errors when logging in. Fortunately the person responsible for the upgrades is in my LoCo so 
<charlie-tca> If you get a 502, try hitting F5 instead of anything else. Most times that will let it work
<paul_h> didn't want to play ball at all on Monday afternoon but seems okay now. glad it wasn't something my end
<AlanBell> phillw: yeah, the person doing the upgrade was bradm
<Pendulum> paul_h: I think that's when people were having the most problems
<Pendulum> okay
<Pendulum> are y'all ready?
<phillw> 21:00 UTC?
<Pendulum> argh
<Pendulum> I just failed timezones didn't I
<paul_h> ready?
<paul_h> another hour to go...
 * phillw been there got the 'T'-Sirt :P I was an hour late for a classroom session, and I was te one giving it :P
<Pendulum> I guess this means I have more time for chocolate :)
<paul_h> always do a `date -u` before you decide it's time for a meting at x UTC :)
<paul_h> the blueprint mentions ubuntu classroom.... what is that exactly?
<AlanBell> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom
<AlanBell> IRC based training sessions
<paul_h> AlanBell: ta (Paul opens yet another browser tab...)
<paul_h> luckily Orca is currently working quite nicely on the ubuntu wiki site
<glen1> Hi
<TheMuso> paul_h: Yeah I will be here, been a little swamped.
<paul_h> TheMuso: good good :) good morning!
<charlie-tca> where is the meeting?
<paul_h> about to start...
<Pendulum> 3 min according to my clock
<Pendulum> charlie-tca: here
 * charlie-tca will stick, around then
<paul_h> 21:00 UTC
<Pendulum> right
<Pendulum> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Jun 22 21:01:30 2011 UTC.  The chair is Pendulum. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell.
<meetingology> Useful Commands: #topic #action #link #idea #voters #vote #chair #action #agreed #help #info #endmeeting.
<AlanBell> o/
<Pendulum> kay, welcome to the meeting those of you who are here for it!
<TheMuso> Hey folks.
<paul_h> hey all
 * charlie-tca waves
<Pendulum> I took the liberty earlier of putting up an adgenda at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Team/MeetingAgenda
<TheMuso> Thanks, as the one who suggested the meeting, I probably should have done more, but have been swamped.
<Pendulum> TheMuso: s'ok. I probably should have been on top of suggesting meetings ;-)
<TheMuso> Pendulum: But you had more important things to deal with.
<paul_h> the agenda suggests we start with the blueprint?
<Pendulum> anyway, we can all have our own personal guilt complexes, but the meeting is happening
<Pendulum> #topic Quick review of Oneiric blueprint from UDS
<meetingology> TOPIC: Quick review of Oneiric blueprint from UDS
<Pendulum> #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/community-o-accessibility-team
<TheMuso> Ok, the document has not really been started yet, probably won't get to that till post feature freeze.
<TheMuso> I.e the a11y architecture document.
<Pendulum> TheMuso: makes sense. Let me know if there's anything I can do to help with that
<TheMuso> Ok thanks.
<TheMuso> Re java-atk-wrapper, its somewhat of a higher priority, and am working to get it in the archive, so that at-spi1 can be properly demoted from main, as openjdk still depends on at-spi.
<Pendulum> *nods*
<TheMuso> As for dasher, well not looked at it at all.
<Pendulum> okay
<paul_h> is the Java ATK wrapper still being developed?
<TheMuso> paul_h: Good question. There doesn't seem to have been much upstrea mactivity, and it is in the process of changing maintainers. I emailed various people involved with it a week ago about a license questino, and have not heard anything back yet.
<TheMuso> However, it is needed.
<TheMuso> For openjdk.
<TheMuso> Openjdk currently uses java-access-bridge with is deprecated.
<paul_h> can openjdk use the atk wrapper?
<TheMuso> I don't think openjdk uses it as such, it just makes sure its available for any swing etc apps.
<TheMuso> But it may actually use it, I haven't looked into it much, all I know is that its needed.
<paul_h> well I can help test any package you create
<Pendulum> AlanBell: have you looked into the Compiz Enhanzed zoom stuff yet?
<TheMuso> paul_h: I don't think its a matter of testing, once its in, its in, and its needed either way. :)
<AlanBell> Pendulum: I have a bit
<Pendulum> anything interesting we should know now or is it just mostly in progress?
<paul_h> TheMuso: in as in on the CD? or available in a repository?
<AlanBell> I spoke to smspillaz about it and got started setting up a compiz development environmnet
<TheMuso> paul_h: In main.
<AlanBell> it is a bit of a "patches welcome" state
<AlanBell> so I will try and get it done
<AlanBell> I know how the orca/gnome magnifier does text cursor tracking
<AlanBell> just the compiz plugin is in C++ rather than python
<AlanBell> needs to be done without creating a hard dependency on at-spi2 I think
<AlanBell> and installing the compiz development stuff broke my unity
<TheMuso> AlanBell: IMO a dependency on at-spi2 will be a must unless we want to kep updating the plugin with the dbus API, as the dbus API between at-spi2 pieces is in flux atm.
<paul_h> can I ask where we are with regards to the accessibility of Unity - both 2D and 3D?
<TheMuso> The Qt at-spi plugin authors are finding this out first hand.
<TheMuso> paul_h: That will be covered in the development topic.
<paul_h> okay - I thought we'd done with the compis - sorry
<AlanBell> TheMuso: yeah, a dependency to actually do text tracking is fine, but the zoom plugin needs to work as-is without it. If that makes sense
<TheMuso> AlanBell: yes it does, but I am not sure how we will manage that without a build time dep, unless we want to keep updating to the new DBUS changes for at-spi2 as above.
<TheMuso> The good thing is even with a dep on libatspi2, we could make the text tracking interface configurable, so that the plugin can still work even with a dep on libatspi2.
<TheMuso> Libatspi2 does speak via dbus after all, its just that its kept up to date with the dbus API changes.
<Pendulum> Just quickly I think before we wrap up the blueprint stuff, charlie-tca and I did an accessibility Q&A last week in Ubuntu Classroom. I'm also going to start asking soon for volunteers to teach accessibility classes. It'd be great if we could get something into developer week as well as open week and user days (which we've done before)
<TheMuso> I wouldn't mind if the timezone was more agreeable.
<Pendulum> TheMuso: would you possibly be willing to teach a one-off class at a time that works for you? (so outside one of the weeks)
<TheMuso> Yes, I could do that.
<Pendulum> I know the Ubuntu Classroom Team really is happy to have classes at any time :)
<TheMuso> Its just a matter of coming up with something.
<Pendulum> :)
<Pendulum> Does anyone else have anything relating to the blueprint to discuss?
<AlanBell> "how to use accerciser" would be good
<Pendulum> I'll take that as a no.
<Pendulum> #topic Development Update
<meetingology> TOPIC: Development Update
<Pendulum> TheMuso: I think this one is pretty much all you at the moment :)
<TheMuso> Right.
<maco> yeah don't look at me. i have to make ubiquity stop crashing before i can make it do any useful a11y stuff
<TheMuso> So, Qt accessibility bits are coming along. Didrocks from the Desktop team is handling Qt, the qt-at-spi bridge and the patches to Qt, as he is in contact with upstream.
<TheMuso> The bits are now ready for testing in the Ubuntu desktop PPA for Oneiric only. I plan to hammer them today myself.
<TheMuso> QML is on the cards for upstream, so hopefully at the end of it all, unity 2d will be accessible, however I do have my concerns that things won't be ready/stable enough in time.
<Pendulum> TheMuso: is there any discussion happening within the desktop team about what would/should happen if it's not ready?
<TheMuso> As for Unity 3D, well not much a11y is happening on that, at least in terms of the DX team. I am currently hacking on quicklist a11y and making some good progress. I feel that unless I work on unity 3D, it won't be looked at much this cycle, which sucks because I already have a pike of work on the Ubiquity a11y spec, https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/desktop-o-accessibility-ubiquity.
<TheMuso> Pendulum: Not that I know of, that discussion may very likely happen next week in Dublin.
<TheMuso> In fact I want it to happen.
<TheMuso> So I will make it a priority that it gets talked about.
<Pendulum> :)
<maco> TheMuso: i got commit access to ubiquity, so i guess you can push some ubiquity stuff my way if you need. though, tell me first (don't pull an apachelogger...assigned all kde-related ubiquity bugs to me without asking)
<AlanBell> TheMuso: you are over in Dublin?
<TheMuso> AlanBell: I will be next week for the rally, yes.
<TheMuso> maco: Thanks, but I am currently talkto design about UI stuff relating to how we present/activate accessibility profiles at the first installer screen.
<maco> oh, so over-my-head stuff
<TheMuso> Once thats sorted, coding will begin in urnist, I OHPEby tomorrow, if not early next week.
<TheMuso> gah typing
<AlanBell> so that would fix the problem on boot where you have to press a key when you see the magic symbol
<maco> AlanBell: s/when/if/
<TheMuso> AlanBell: Yes.
<paul_h> that's what I wonna hear... :)
<TheMuso> Thats pretty much it from me at this point.
<Pendulum> maco: do you have anything to add on any of your devel work?
<paul_h> TheMuso: is there anyway I can have some input on how activating a11y on boot might work?
<TheMuso> paul_h: What do you have in mind? I am currently talking to our design team about it at the moment.
<maco> i have patches from Cheri703 to go through for adding accessible names to Ubiquity GTK and then i intend to knock out the variable name loop
<maco> for Ubiquity KDE,  it has to run before i can make it accessible
<paul_h> well, potential hotkeys for activating a11y, that kind of thing
<TheMuso> paul_h: Right, again, what do you have ni mind? Do you mind emailing me your thoughts?
<TheMuso> So we don't clog up the meeting?
<TheMuso> paul_h: Or we could talk about it after the meeting.
<paul_h> TheMuso: sure, I'll be around after
<Pendulum> okay, are we all set on Development then?
<TheMuso> Yep.
<Pendulum> #topic Discussion of community plans for Oneiric not on blueprint
<meetingology> TOPIC: Discussion of community plans for Oneiric not on blueprint
<Pendulum> I just wanted to bring these things up because we've got a lot more on blueprints this cycle that are development related than community related
<Pendulum> also, some of these things I've been asked about from other teams
<Pendulum> so to start off
<Pendulum> Personas
<Pendulum> AlanBell: any status update on the remaining ones?
<AlanBell> not a lot of progress recently to be honest
<AlanBell> so there is Simon who is partially sighted that is in progress
<AlanBell> there is a deaf user, and one with cognitive issues
<AlanBell> need to do a few collaborative sessions to get them hammered out and published
<Pendulum> ok
<Pendulum> AlanBell: do you want to send an e-mail to the list maybe to schedule something so we can do maybe a day of personas 'hacking' to get them done?
<AlanBell> good idea, I will do that
<Pendulum> I'm thinking if we could get 3-5 people to just sit for a day or two and work on them they could get done
<Pendulum> and they are something joanie of Gnome A11y has asked me about
<AlanBell> yeah, I know joanie liked the first two
<Pendulum> okay
<Pendulum> guess that's it on personas
<Pendulum> Outreach
<Pendulum> we're already going to do the Ubuntu Classroom things
<Pendulum> are there other outreach things that we'd like to do this cycle?
<paul_h> fairly trivial but what about a twitter feed and maybe a facebook page etc?
<AlanBell> I did a podcast interview
<Pendulum> are other people interested in twitter or facebook pages?
<paul_h> I just noticed that some of the other projects mention them when I was looking at the wiki
<AlanBell> I am kind of interested in the facebook thing, I know the Ubuntu one is massively popular
<AlanBell> not quite sure what we would do with a twitter feed as a team
<paul_h> perhaps just post links to blog posts etc
<Pendulum> I do try to tweet at minimum meetings and stuff and random a11y related stuff I come across
<charlie-tca> We could just feed twitter posts to Ubuntu_OS, which seems to be the official Ubuntu account
<Pendulum> anyone can feel free to follow me. I'm colona13 on twitter :)
<AlanBell> ooh, I am trying to get planet-a11y.net back up and running
<charlie-tca> I'm charlietca1 on twitter and identi.ca
<paul_h> I think it's a good way of spreading the word among people not already entrenched in ubuntu
<Pendulum> also, we have our blog
<AlanBell> it has been taken down for months and months because they had problems keeping it accessible because the diverse feeds it was aggregating broke it
<Pendulum> which we can post to
<TheMuso> I am themuso82 on twitter.
<AlanBell> and I am alanbell_libsol
<paul_h> we still have one more topic to cover
<Pendulum> yeah
<Pendulum> do we want to talk about it breifly or put it off?
<Pendulum> (I really have to go at the 60 minute mark)
<paul_h> guess it depends on whether or not anyone's got anything much to say on it
<TheMuso> I don't think so, the only docs we are really wanting to do this cycle are the architecture doc, which has been covered.
<TheMuso> And once complete, there will be docs for ubiquity a11y bits that are being added.
<TheMuso> That will need to be written.
<charlie-tca> carry it forward to the next meeting
<TheMuso> I'll let everyone know when that is ready to be written.
<TheMuso> Sounds good.
<charlie-tca> and try to get j1mc to the meeting, since he does write docs
<AlanBell> there is this that I was working on http://pad.ubuntu.com/AccessibilityInfrastructure
<AlanBell> should become a blog post when done I think
<TheMuso> Cool.
<TheMuso> charlie-tca: Good suggestino.
<TheMuso> Ok I think we are done here.
<Pendulum> okay great!
<Pendulum> Thanks everyone for coming!
<Pendulum> #endmeeting
<TheMuso> Thanks folks.
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Jun 22 22:01:25 2011 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell . (v 0.1.4)
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://mootbot.libertus.co.uk/ubuntu-accessibility/2011/ubuntu-accessibility.2011-06-22-21.01.moin.txt
<AlanBell> thanks Pendulum 
 * TheMuso -> breakfast.
 * Pendulum --> dinner
 * AlanBell -> bed
<TheMuso> paul_h: Give me a few minutes, and we can talk about accessibility profile activation.
<AlanBell> timezones are great
<charlie-tca> Pendulum: thanks for chairing
<paul_h> TheMuso: sure
<TheMuso> paul_h: Ok, so what do you have in mind?
<paul_h> well, we're talking about the screen where users can pick the language and then whether to try or install?
<TheMuso> Right.
<paul_h> TheMuso: so, I's want some indication of when this screen had appeared, followed by an easy way to then activate Orca...
<TheMuso> paul_h: Right. The plan at this point is to play a sound when the first installer screen appears. At that point, you will use a keyboard shortcut to launch the profile you want. Unfortunately the user will have to know ahead of time what the keyboard shortcut is. However, I may be able to mitigate that somewhat.
<paul_h> perhaps if the user does nothing for a certain amount of time then speech could be activated? as in with macs?
<maco> cjwatson said he would not be opposed to a solution like that
<TheMuso> paul_h: That was discussed, however that doesn't solve the language issue.
<maco> did the casper-time language asker go away?
<TheMuso> maco: No.
<paul_h> would there be any visual indication of accessibility choices? a "universal access options" button for example
<TheMuso> paul_h: Yes, there will be.
<TheMuso> In the form of an indicator.
<TheMuso> Which will be accessible from the keyboard.
<charlie-tca> There should be both audio and visual indicators, so any user can know what is happening.
<paul_h> as far as language goes, what can we do? orca has no support for detecting languages. it starts up in English whatever the locale
<TheMuso> The issue is not even to do with Orca, its how do we tell the user about the profiles in a language that they understand that hasn't been selected yet.
<maco> TheMuso: read off language names in their own language, and user mashes button when they hear their language said, then start up in that?
<paul_h> the only way around that I see is to put the user immediately on a language selection list that speaks each language as the user arrows up and down it. but we don't even have synthesiser language support  for every language ubuntu offers
<maco> english espaÃ±ol francais zhong-guo nihongo
<TheMuso> paul_h: Right, and doing that would require another screen, i.e we couldn't really do that with the existing screen.
<TheMuso> maco: I am not sure how useful that would end up being. I know I wouldn't want to have to do that.
<TheMuso> Its easier to know ahead of time how to load the profile.
<paul_h> so the language issue aside (not sure what we can really do there for now), are we thinking a hotkey for each a11y profile, or a hotkey to bring up some kind of universal access screen?
<TheMuso> A hotkey for the first 4 profiles, i.e the high contrast, magnification, blindness and braille profiles.
<TheMuso> And maybe a hotkey for the minor motor difficulties profile, but with sticky keys enabled.
<TheMuso> The last profile will likely need a dwell click gesture.
<paul_h> do we need separate blindness and braille profiles? surely if the user is blind and has a braille display connected they'd want it to work?
<TheMuso> Thats a good point actually.
<TheMuso> One other thing I will be working on for this cycle and as a part of this blueprint, is revamping the way we configure non-USB Braille displays.,
<TheMuso> i.e bluetooth/serial.
<paul_h> doesn't hurt to have brltty running and orca set to use braille if there's no braille display connected
<TheMuso> Right, brltty will be running if udev detects a display. We can check for that, and set Orca up to use it... even without the need to configure a profile. :)
<TheMuso> paul_h: You gave me a wonderful idea.
<TheMuso> All I need now, is a USB display to test with. :)
<TheMuso> But thats for post alpha 2 I think.
<paul_h> well I have a usb braille display if I can help test anything
<paul_h> I want to get more involved
<TheMuso> Cool.
<TheMuso> I am seriously thinking about picking one up.
<TheMuso> And before the end of the financial year, so I can get it into my books and try and get a tax deduction on it.
<paul_h> I'd like a bluetooth one, could use it with my iPhone then
<maco> iphones can do brltty?
<paul_h> voiceover can use bluetooth braille displays, yeah
<maco> i knew they were a11y awesome sauce, but i thought they just TALKED
<TheMuso> paul_h: So to be clear, my idea is this. If you have a USB display, and its connected at live CD boot, come installer time, your display will be found, BrlTTY will be running, and Orca will be started up for you configured to use Braille, and away you go, without the need to activate anything.
<paul_h> yes, having a connected braille display is a good tip off that you'll want the blindness profile
<TheMuso> Yep.
<TheMuso> And then we only offer the braille choice for those who don't have a USB display.
<paul_h> and if you don't, then you wait for an audible prompt and do a key combo to start Orca
<TheMuso> Not sure we will easily be able to handle the bluetooth usecsae yet, but thast something I want to look at in the long term.
<TheMuso> paul_h: Yep.
<JanC> TheMuso: aren't most braille displays using the generic USB-to-serial USBID ?
<TheMuso> JanC: No.
<JanC> I that was an issue in the past
<JanC> I remember that *
<TheMuso> Yes it was, I am just trying to remember what displays that was with. I will have to look it up.
<JanC> nice if the manufacturers got their own USB IDs, that helps a lot!
<TheMuso> Yep.
<TheMuso> I think sed display manufacturers cut corners by using a USB to serial chip internally.
<TheMuso> And using Windows drivers, of course thats not an issue. :S
<JanC> yes, GPS receivers had the same problem
<JanC> that's how I learned about it first actually
<paul_h> can we use udev to detect braille displays on an installed system, so the user never has to edit the /etc/default/brltty file?
<JanC> GPS receivers, braille displays and industrial metering devices all using the same USB ID...
<TheMuso> JanC: Yeah thats poor form I agree.
<JanC> paul_h: that should be possible if they use their own USB ID
<TheMuso> paul_h: Thats how it should work now/
<paul_h> my pacmate 20 isn't activated till I edit the brltty file...
<JanC> paul_h: what is it shown as in 'lsusb' ?
<paul_h> shows up as Freedom Scientific (the vendor)
<JanC> so it has its own ID
<TheMuso> Could you post the vendor and product IDs?
<JanC> and things could be better
<TheMuso> I need to drag brltty into the new world order of running as a user, at least for use with Orca.
<TheMuso> paul_h: Could you post the entire line from lsusb where your FS display is mentioned?
<paul_h> says ID 0f4e:0111 Freedom Scientific
<TheMuso> Hrm ok, it is listed here. I will need to go through how we have brltty wired up again. :S
<TheMuso> I really wish it ran per user only.
<TheMuso> But it can't do that yet.
<paul_h> TheMuso: but doesn't the /etc/default/brltty file tell brltty never to start up unless it's editted?
<TheMuso> paul_h: Yes, but I thought we had something in place so that USB displays bypassed that if they were detected.
<TheMuso> Which is why I need to check things again.
<TheMuso> brb
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-06-23
<paul_h> can anyone tell me if there's a way to change my alias on here using Pidgin so that I can indicate that I'm away?
<TheMuso> paul_h: You're better off using /away IMO, people tend to get annoyed when people change their nickname to indicate status.
<paul_h> TheMuso: just tried that, did it do anything?
<charlie-tca> whois paul_h
<TheMuso> paul_h: You need to do something like "/away away message goes here."
<TheMuso> paul_h: And then type /away to remove your away status.
<TheMuso> Thats what I do in irssi anyway.,
<TheMuso> charlie-tca: paul_h is Paul Hunt.
<TheMuso> From the ubuntu accessibility mailing list.
<charlie-tca> yeah, whois should show status too, shouldn't it?
<charlie-tca> I typed it wrong. It should have a / in front
<paul_h> hehe so tried "/away off to bed" did anyone see anything?
<TheMuso> paul_h: It won't show up in the channel, which is the idea.
<TheMuso> paul_h: But if someone messages you or does a whois query, they will see your away message.
<TheMuso> paul_h: But yes your away message is showing now.
<paul_h> TheMuso: thanks :)
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-06-24
<leagris> Hello!
<AlanBell> hi leagris 
<leagris> I feel concerned and worried about current and upcomming changes in Ubuntu that affect accessibility.
<leagris> As a visually impaired, I strongly rely on compiz with enhanced zoom ezoom feature controlable with mous wheel and <super> modifier.
<leagris> Since natty, the default controls for ezoom where reset to a disabled default.
<leagris> The needed mouse tracking was default to 40ms which is way too jercky
<leagris> I partly solved the above issues with ccsm, re-establishiing the controls with mouse and keyboard and lowering the mouse tracking to 2ms
<leagris> But the Unity desktop still steal the <super> modifier key so I can not control ezoom zooming level while holding <super> and wheel <button4/5>
<AlanBell> leagris: yeah totally agree, a load of the useful keybindings have just been turned off
<leagris> The Unity thing is advertised as a replacment for classic desktop in next upcoming ubuntu releases
<leagris> I feel very worried about that.
<AlanBell> yes, the idea is to have unity 3d and unity 2d
<AlanBell> where is the mouse tracking setting leagris? I can't see it in ccsm
<leagris> that and the advertised removal of synaptic in favour of the less controllable software-manager are major worrying changes.
<leagris> AlanBell, Utility â Mouse Position Polling
<leagris> Third row in first column of the Utility section inside CCSM
<leagris> the setting is Mouse poll interval
<leagris> currently at 8 with acceptable low jitter
<leagris> the default 40 is way too long
<AlanBell> yeah that does make things smoother
<leagris> Before natty the default was 10
<leagris> someone decided that change for some unknown reason
<AlanBell> yeah, I was meaning to find out how these settings are decided
<AlanBell> I think the mouse poll interval should probably relate to the screen refresh rate
<leagris> AlanBell, yes it should, or to save some CPU cycles it should be put at a reasonable frequency
<AlanBell> gah, thanks to the Americans laptop screens have a 60Hz tick
<leagris> 40ms in an ezoomed environment makes it difficult tu track anything on screen due to the jumpy effect.
<leagris> s/tu/to
<AlanBell> I actually found 40ms to be OK, I thought it was just my graphics card and big screen causing a slight lack of smoothness
<AlanBell> but having turned it to 2ms I can see that is smoother
<AlanBell> I expect 2ms is going to be a performance problem on some hardware though
<leagris> the smoothing is much noticeable on a CRT that has no delay
<leagris> Vsyked changes on a CRT is the most smooth setting available :)
<leagris> VSynked
<AlanBell> yeah
<AlanBell> 10ms wasn't chosen by accident
<AlanBell> it is 6 frames at 60hz and 5 frames at 50hz
<leagris> Sure, and why has it changed to default 40 in Natty. I really wonder.
<AlanBell> conspiracy or cockup is the question
<leagris> lol, 
<AlanBell> it might be in response to a performance issue on weak hardware, in which case it probably stays there by default
<AlanBell> or it could have been done by accident
<leagris> My guess this is a red light on the need for disabled user to  voice louder about their needs at Ubuntu :)
<AlanBell> to be fair though, the mouse polling setting isn't really an accessibility specific thing, it probably makes all sorts of plugins less smooth
<leagris> I fear compiz is seen as some gimmick for most healthy geeks and CEO there
<AlanBell> not really, aesthetic design is considered important these days, thanks in part to Apple
<AlanBell> and unity is built on compiz
<AlanBell> and yeah, they broke it quite a bit when putting it together
<leagris> The poor zooming tool in Windows7 is what took me away from it even when pressured to that environment du to job requirements
<AlanBell> do you want text cursor tracking in ezoom?
<leagris> I dream of that feature AlanBell with some options to enable disable, track timing and panning speed
<AlanBell> it is on my todo list
<leagris> as for example I wouldn't want my screen panning abruptly while typing and the cursor reaching end of a line
<leagris> Currently I disable zoom panning/tracking of active window as it is an annoyance having the pointer and zoom area changing because of some modal or other popup thing
<AlanBell> what should it do at the end of a line?
<leagris> this is Focus Tracking in ezoom. I find it quite inconvenient
<leagris> at least I disable fitting zoom level at focus change
<leagris> AlanBell, at a guess if the cursor jump whatever direction some small amount, the zoom area should follow instantly and conveniently with some tunable smoothness
<leagris> if the cursor move some more than limit, a short delay then an accelerating move would be nice.
<leagris> This would let eyes accomodate the fact, that the cursor moved far away, (let si it has moved out of here), then the accelerateing panning would help the eyes guess the direction and no relative position.
<AlanBell> ok
<leagris> I guess these should be a settable preference as needs may vary between users
<leagris> someone may prefer instant position change, someone else may like some more delay or some other limit on defining small/big position change
<leagris> this probably needs some try/error/tune before having proper settings
<AlanBell> I think that should be do-able
<leagris> AlanBell, if you can develop this you are my divinity :)
<leagris> AlanBell, seriously, if ou take time and work for this. It is so important I'd happily contribute testing and sponsor your work with real funds. Not so much sure but hope to cover some hard developer work hours.
<leagris> AlanBell send me an email lea dot gris at noiraude dot net or a message via launchpad
<leagris> https://launchpad.net/~lea-gris
 * leagris take a break
<leagris> I got to go, thanks all especially AlanBell
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-06-25
<AlanBell> anyone tried to get to the accessibility profiles starting from an OEM install?
<AlanBell> so install from the alternate CD, select the OEM install option, then click the thing on the desktop to prepare for first user
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-06-26
<AlanBell> 802014
<AlanBell> bug 802014
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 802014 in onboard "SRU: Upgrade to an appearance more suitable for Unity (new release)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/802014
<AlanBell> that is cool :)
 * AlanBell fires up compiz development machine
<AlanBell> going to try an eyes free oneiric install in a bit
<charlie-tca> oneiric is not ready for that, actually
<charlie-tca> If you can't get all the installations to work without orca, good luck 
<AlanBell> yeah, orca doesn't run at all
<AlanBell> this ppa https://launchpad.net/~frafu/+archive/ppa contains a shiny new version of onboard, would be great if some people could try it out
<MrChrisDruif> Onboard is that virtual keyboard or sorts, right?
<AlanBell> yup
#ubuntu-accessibility 2012-06-18
<AlanBell> http://labs.qt.nokia.com/2012/06/18/qt-5-accessibility-apis/ interesting article including a mention of unity2d
<TheMuso> AlanBell: Cool thanks for the link, a good read.
#ubuntu-accessibility 2012-06-21
<Fudge> hi earlier on my sound output device was lost, being blind this was a real problem. I needed a sighted person to help me investigate. We found that we had to select headphones again and I got sound back. I was using epiphany-browser and then lost sound. Does anyone have any ideas why this may have happened or had similar experiences. Ubuntu 12.04 unity-2d. Thanks
<Pendulum> http://the19thfloor.net/wordpress/?p=3357
<AlanBell> I should add that feed to planeta11y.com
<AlanBell> interesting to see someone is using an on-screen keyboard for an a11y use case
<AlanBell> most development is focussed on tablets and phones and touchscreens
#ubuntu-accessibility 2012-06-22
 * AlanBell is building compiz with text tracking zoom
<AlanBell> and panning in zoom should be a lot smoother as this merge was approved https://code.launchpad.net/~alanbell/compiz/fix930783/+merge/110791
#ubuntu-accessibility 2012-06-23
<DomasoFan> hi guys. anyone knows if sound is currently broken in the ubuntu 12.10 daily builds?
<AlanBell> hi DomasoFan 
<AlanBell> DomasoFan: I am running quantal that I upgraded a couple of days ago, I will update it and check sounds
<DomasoFan> AlanBell: i guess i used yesterdays build but that seems to have no sound or something. currently downloading the iso from today. tested in VirtualBox.
<AlanBell> I have sound
<DomasoFan> AlanBell: hmm. strange. its still the same activation way? waiting until the drums then hitting ctrl+s.
<AlanBell> DomasoFan: yeah, should be
<AlanBell> I actually did a do-release-upgrade from precise, but a few weeks ago I installed in virtualbox and it was the same
<DomasoFan> AlanBell: hmm. let's see. the iso is now downloaded.
<AlanBell> plus I did reinforce to everyone at UDS how important the drums were at that point#
<DomasoFan> AlanBell: hmm. seems orca comes up and all things but no sound in virtualbox. using the default ac97 card.
<DomasoFan> AlanBell: i also tried to increase the volume or mute/unmute the card. but nothing. i have some buttons on the keyboard which i can use for that which ubuntu seems to recognize.
<DomasoFan> AlanBell: just also tested with the intel hd audio card which also seems not to work. interesting.
<AlanBell> DomasoFan: I will try an install later from todays iso
<DomasoFan> AlanBell: thanks. wonder how it will do over there.
<AlanBell> it should now have the fix I did to bug 1010179
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 1010179 in ubiquity "orca reads "replace windows with Ubuntu" when windows was not installed" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1010179
<DomasoFan> so. back.
<DomasoFan> so. dear ubuntu, when you don't want to run from the daily iso then you are getting upgraded. *lol*. downloading around 400 mb of stuff. let's see afterwards if it still boots.
<AlanBell> DomasoFan: just booted todays 12.10 CD and got a low volume slider position and no actual sound
<AlanBell> and just tried 12.04 and got sound
<AlanBell> ok, I will file a bug and harass people about this one
<DomasoFan> AlanBell: i now updated my 12.04 install to 12.10. seems to work.
<AlanBell> yeah, the upgrade is fine
<AlanBell> just the daily image boots silent
<DomasoFan> AlanBell: yeah
<DomasoFan> AlanBell: also ubuntu 3d seems to do its job now quite responsively
<AlanBell> bug 1016969
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 1016969 in ubiquity "daily live cd boots silent in virtualbox" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1016969
<DomasoFan> AlanBell: thanks. you are all doing a great job.
<AlanBell> DomasoFan: I can get audio on the ubiquity screen, but I had to use the mouse
<AlanBell> I couldn't get to the top panel using alt+f10
<AlanBell> so with the mouse I clicked on the sound indicator then sound settings
<AlanBell> then changed the connector dropdown from analog mono to one of the LFE options
<AlanBell> but I can't give a keyboard sequence for doing that
<DomasoFan> yeah that could be difficult. i also guess that can change from system to system when you have that on a real machine.
<AlanBell> probably. I expect this is a transitional thing, but I will poke people about this one, sound working was supposed to be a basic smoke test for the daily isos
<DomasoFan> here on my updated laptop i seem to be able to access the menus with alt+f10
<DomasoFan> sure. sighted people sometimes forget about things they don't need. *smile*
<DomasoFan> or which they don't need yet.
<AlanBell> might just be that in virtualbox the hud or something is stealing the alt key
<DomasoFan> normally it should work. i did that once on virtualbox too and it worked. i have the right ctrl key for the host key.
<AlanBell> yeah, I am sure it used to work, lets see if it works in 12.04
<AlanBell> no, it doesn't
<DomasoFan> oops. interesting. hmm.
<DomasoFan> wonder which issue that is. but i guess in the OS itself it seemed to work as i tested that. but that was a while ago.
<AlanBell> not sure, it might still be a virtualbox bug rather than a bug in the guest operating system
<DomasoFan> yeah that also could be the case.
<DomasoFan> i like it loads that also ubuntu is now a quite good alternative to windows. thats good competition.
<DomasoFan> if someone is interested: football EM 2012: spain france 2:0.
<AlanBell> Pendulum and myself are doing a user days session in #ubuntu-classroom in a couple of minutes
<AlanBell> and #ubuntu-classroom-chat for questions
<AlanBell> it is on accessibility
<DomasoFan> i am unfortunately not around in a few minutes. will there be a log?
<Pendulum> yes
<DomasoFan> good. goodbye.
<genii-around> AlanBell, Pendulum .. most excellent classroom session, thank you.
<AlanBell> thanks genii-around 
<AlanBell> was that AAC thing the kind of thing you were thinking of?
<genii-around> AlanBell: My friend who was afflicted with ALS ( Lou Gehrig's disease ) went through many types of alternate input devices as he degraded. The first ones were things like over-size switches you mount on the desk when you have less motor control ( to be a mouse button, etc). Then alternate type pointing devices very much like joysticks. Eventually symbolic keyboards ( some of which interfaced to a computer by USB, others standalone 
<genii-around> ARM-based ). In the end it was eye-tracking devices, again USB based.
<genii-around> Unfortunately, many of the devices were of course provided only with mainstream drivers or software. He was an avid Linux fan and I regretted at the time the lack of help in this area.
<AlanBell> first accessibility thing I ever did was about 20 years ago, putting in a suite of classroom computers, there was one girl in a wheelchair who couldn't use a mouse, every time she clicked the mouse moved and missed what she was aiming at
<AlanBell> so I ripped apart one of the mice and took it to the technology department and built a switch she could use with her left hand, wired up to the left mouse button
<AlanBell> click with the left hand, control with the right hand, worked great
<AlanBell> we looked at joysticks and things (the wheelchair was joystick controlled) but there were no mouse drivers for joysticks at the time
<genii-around> Yes, at that time there was something called "joymouse" in Windows which i could not find the equivelent of
#ubuntu-accessibility 2017-06-23
<MayS> Hey . How to increase keyboard controlled mouse speed ?
<MayS> #ubuntu
