#ubuntu-artwork 2006-06-19
<lapo> hi
<kwwii> moin
<kwwii> anyone home?
<kwwii> live from Paris
<jsgotangco> yeah but on the 2nd floor heh
<fschoep> Hi!
<kwwii> hi frank
<klepas> moin
<klepas> how is Paris?
<msikma> Hello
<kwwii> re
<msikma> Hello to Paris
<fschoep> I'm back from lunch
<msikma> You guys are privilidged to be in Paris so you'd better be enjoying yourselves :)
<msikma> *privileged
<offs> hi..
<fschoep> We are trapped in a bunker :)
* offs is Thiago Ribeiro
<fschoep> Troy says hi\
<msikma> Hi there Troy!
<msikma> Man, I wish I could be there. But it's so busy here at work. And I've got a three-week vacation planned...
<msikma> Guess I'll try to come next year.
<fschoep> Have you looked into the specifications in launchpad yet?
<msikma> So what events have there been thus far?
<fschoep> We've had dinner, breakfast and lunch.
<msikma> I personally have not, although I've taken a few peeks in there.
<jsgotangco> hi
<fschoep> https://launchpad.net/sprints/uds-paris/+specs
<fschoep> That's kind of what we're going to discuss here.
<fschoep> https://launchpad.net/people/ubuntu-art/+specs
<fschoep> That's the list of specs for the art team.
<fschoep> That is just the current list, Troy, Kenneth and I are discussing other things on top of that list at the moment, like submission guidelines, file formats and licensing issues and GPG signing.
* kwwii reboots
<kwwii> brb
<msikma> By the way
<msikma> "Improve progress bar for gnome" needs to be "usplash visual improvements"
<jsgotangco> gpg signing? for the package?
<msikma> I'll edit it myself later if I'm able to, but I'm not sure
<msikma> Ah, Ican
<msikma> iCan
<fschoep> Jerome, GPG signing would be to indicate the submission takes the license in account so that we can prevent legal issues afterwards.
<jsgotangco> oh okay fair enough
<jsgotangco> =)
<bersace> damn ! i forgot the summit !
<bersace> i live in Paris !
<jsgotangco> lol
<fschoep> kwwii - where are you?
<jsgotangco> come here and liberate us!
<fschoep> We're downstairs.
<fschoep> Etienne we'd be happy to have you here :0
<msikma> I live one TGV away from Paris...
<msikma> If only it were in Rotterdam :)
<bersace> fschoep: so you're in that hostel ?
<bersace> what conf are planned for today
<fschoep> I am, alongside Troy James Sobotka and we had Kenneth Wimer earlier here.
<fschoep> There's a lot of conferences planned, but almost no artwork ones because we didn't add specifications to the distro sprint list.
<bersace> do you know the RER station ?
<bersace> (i know this is line B3)
<bersace> but which station ?
<fschoep> It is, I think it is CDG 2.
<bersace> ok
<bersace> ok
<bersace> and, if i come, what can we do together
<bersace> other than taking a beer
<bersace> i mean, i want to talk with the wiki bugsquad
<fschoep> We have a lot of Wiki stuff to do and we could certainly use another member with a laptop.
<bersace> ok,
<bersace> so do you advice me to come with a laptop (old) and work together with you at CDG ?
<bersace> does it worth it ?
<fschoep> No, you could try to take the hotel shuttle bus to Radisson SAS. It's a small silver bus.
<bersace> say what ?
<bersace> no ?
<bersace> no i shouldn't come or no it doesn't cost ?
<fschoep> -
<fschoep> It would definitely be great if you could come over.
<bersace> ok
<bersace> so i'll come
<fschoep> e dtro
<bersace> ?
<fschoep> et troy here
<fschoep> we are kind of ry
<fschoep> trying to bang out some new stuffs fro the wiki
<fschoep> you talked to pas yet:
<fschoep> ?
<fschoep> (mac keyboards suck ass)
<fschoep> you there et?
<bersace> fschoep: i'm bersace
<bersace> and i'm preparing my laptop  :)
<fschoep> ber -- i am using frank's keybaord now -- its troy
<fschoep> we could perhaps meet for an hour a few times this week and get you to pass the stuffs onto pascal as well
* fschoep is troy right now.  frank is sitting beside me.
<msikma> Yeah, Mac keyboards suck. They look very pretty, but I don't like typing with them as much as some of the keyboards I've used.
<bersace> so, i'm ready to go
<bersace> but, i want to be sure to meet you soon and not search my way for long hours
<fschoep> OK
<bersace> you said the station is CDG2 in line RER B3
<bersace> then i take a RAS Shuttle to the RAS bunker
<fschoep> If you are at the CDG2 station you can take a shuttle bus to Radisson SAS.
<bersace> then where to meet you ?
<fschoep> It should work.
<bersace> ok
<fschoep> Depends on what time you are at the hotel.
<bersace> can i just say "i come for Ubuntu Summit"
<bersace> and they let me enter ?
<bersace> where do you stay ?
<bersace> which stair ?
<bersace> which room ?
<fschoep> If you are in the lobby, you'll find it.
<fschoep> We're in several conference rooms.
<klepas> moin
<fschoep> From 15:00 to 16:00 we'll be in the Dionisys room.
<bersace> how can i recognize you ?
<bersace> for your sake, i'm wearing a black debian sweat shirt and have a black debian bag for my laptop
<bersace> i wear glasses
<fschoep> OK, we saw your face on launchpad.
<fschoep> Troy is bald and I look like Frank.
<bersace> hh
<msikma> There should be Ubuntu merchandise.. maybe a neat job for the art team?
<msikma> I should put that on the Launchpad.
<bersace> and i have a "goatee beard" :P
<fschoep> Anyway Etienne, you can find a lot of Ubuntu guys in the Atlas conference room.
<bersace> ok
<bersace> let's go
<fschoep> Whoa. Let's just hope that it goes well.
<kwwii> I tried to make a spec to discuss marketing but it was removed
<kwwii> I made a few banners (like the one outside the door of the conference room)
<kwwii> making leaflets, t-shirts, buttons, stickers, etc...would be really nice
<klepas> you folks have fun :)
* fschoep off to another conference room
<msikma> So how's Paris going?
<klepas> it's fabulous
* klepas is guessing from hi room in Canberra, Australia
<klepas> ;)
<kwwii> re
<bersace> klepas: ping
<bersace> i'm at uds
<bersace> with troy, and other
<bersace> nice
<bersace> what do we plan to do with that wiki
<bersace> i mean
<bersace> how to apply changes
<bersace> ?
<klepas> check your email :)
<klepas> i sent you and brian an email concerning the wiki
<bersace> nice
<klepas> :)
<jsgotangco> hmm
<bersace> klepas: i'm creating https://wiki.ubuntu.com/%c3%89tienneBersac/ArtworkReOrganisation/NewTree
<bersace> In order to create a complete tree of the new Artwork Namespace
<bersace> as list
<bersace> (wiki is more collaborative than a plain text
<bersace> )
<jsgotangco> try gobby
<klepas> good idea
<klepas> brb
<klepas> thanks bersace
<Riyonuk> does anyone know how to make icons in photoshop?
<newz2000> Riyonuk: can you be more specific regarding your request?
<Riyonuk> Like you know how they use iconpackager and they make those profesional looking icons
<Riyonuk> well i want to know how to make them, thers a tutorial on icon a day, but thats for correl
<newz2000> icosn for the ubuntu desktop?
<Riyonuk> yes
<newz2000> I've never seen iconpackager, but a quick google implies that it's for creating Windows XP desktop themes...
<Riyonuk> yeah, but i would like to know how to create icons for ubuntu also
<newz2000> Also, I'm not positive, but I think increasingly icons are made as SVG, which photoshop can't do. Instead you need a program like Inkscape or Illustrator.
<Riyonuk> why might i ask?
<newz2000> Well, SVG icons can be resized without loosing quality. They can be big or small and they still look good.
<newz2000> Corel is also a vector program and it's artwork can often be resized without loosing quality.
<newz2000> Ubuntu's art website has a color pallete for Photoshop that lists the colors we typically use... download that.
<Riyonuk> is that the only reason? I can still make them in photoshop then
<newz2000> Then, maybe glance at this tutorial and see if helps:
<newz2000> http://www.gimp.org/tutorials/Creating_Icons/
<Riyonuk> bingo thats what im looking for
<newz2000> let me see if I can find a link to the pallette for psd.
<klepas> have a lovely time in Paris people :)
<newz2000> arent' you there pascal?
<klepas> a short update via the ML would be lovely :)
<klepas> oh, no :)
<klepas> my cozzy room, Canberra, Australia
<newz2000> oh, I thought you were. I was a bit jelous too. ;-)
<klepas> i wish i was there
<newz2000> (matt nuzum btw)
<klepas> ah, cool
<newz2000> I'm in a cubicle in Des Moines Iowa.
<klepas> cool
<klepas> i couldn't go for various reasons... primarily exams week begins this wednesday and i don't have the money
<newz2000> pascal, do you know where the color palletes are for the ubuntu desktop? It seems they used to be accessible on the diy marketing page
<newz2000> I saw them recently but can't find them now
<klepas> newz2000: i can send the SVGs to you
<klepas> i can't remember what on earth happened to them
<newz2000> Riyonuk asked about them here in the chat room
<klepas> i can email them to you now if you like
<newz2000> he wants the photoshop version
<klepas> ah, okay
<klepas> i'm clueless too
<newz2000> I'll find them, I was just curious if you knew
<Riyonuk> wha?
<klepas> i know a PS colour palette was available..
<klepas> any how i shall be off
<klepas> past 1 AM and i have classes :)
<newz2000> ttl.
<klepas> found those palettes btw :)
<klepas> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Official
<newz2000> ah. Thanks.
<newz2000> Riyonuk, did you get that link?
<Riyonuk> this bezier tool, PS doesnt have that
<klepas> that has the PS palette files too
<newz2000> It has one like it... check the pen
<Riyonuk> the gimp tutorial?
<klepas> cheerio
<Riyonuk> the pens hard, lol
<newz2000> no, the link klepas sent has a photoshop color palette
<newz2000> yeah, it takes a lot of practice
<newz2000> down at the bottom of that page that klepas sent the link to there is a link to the colors used on the ubuntu desktop. There's two for photoshop.
<Riyonuk> ill try, can you give me something to work on, like something you might need, im not gonna make a tv..
<newz2000> there's a page with a bunch of requests... might be getting old now though. Let me find the link.
<Riyonuk> PS swatch?
<newz2000> yeah, that will work
<Riyonuk> how do i use it?
<klepas_Zzz> Riyonuk: www.tango-project.org (i know... should be sleeping)
<klepas_Zzz> cheers
<newz2000> On your color pallete tool window, I think there's a little icon in the top left corner... there you will have the option to load a palette.
<Riyonuk> alright
<newz2000> Riyonuk: http://tango.freedesktop.org/Tango_Icon_Library#How_to_Participate
<Riyonuk> thanks, I g2g but ill be back later
<newz2000> later
<bersace> posted
<fschoep_> Riyonuk, you probably do not want to use Photoshop to create icons.
<msikma> Inkscape is pretty nice.
<msikma> How's Paris, guys?
<newz2000> I'm not a big vector person, but I like Inkscape much better than Illustrator... maybe becuase of the tutorials that come with it
<newz2000> I'm not in paris, btw. :-(
<msikma> I don't think I've seen you in this chatroom before.
<newz2000> Im matt nuzum on the mailing list... I'm not usually on IRC
<newz2000> I wanted to be around while the paris event was going on though
<newz2000> I'm in the US so the time zone diff allows me to miss a good portion of the activity I'll bet. They've probably moved the show down to the pub by now.
<msikma> Hehe
<msikma> I've been working on an experimental wallpaper: http://thingmajig.org/tmp/_ubuntu_wall1test.jpg
<msikma> Still very unpolished (especially the areas with very low stress, you can clearly see the lack of colors a monitor can produce there) but it's a start.
<newz2000> not bad
<newz2000> What's your inspiration?
<msikma> English tea.
<newz2000> I wouldn't have guessed!
<lapo> hi
<msikma> Hey lapo
<lapo> yo msikma
<msikma> I've been working on an experimental wallpaper today
<msikma> Maybe you'd like to fool around with it a little. It's still pretty early.
<msikma> http://thingmajig.org/tmp/_ubuntu_wall1test.jpg
<msikma> For one thing, I want to tone down the luminosity considerably.
<lapo> looks nice
<lapo> I'd try to reduce contrast a bit
<msikma> Thanks! I used some 3D rendering to get the basic shapes, but most work was done in Photoshop.
<msikma> Yeah, it's a little heavy right now, isn't it?
<msikma> The colors are also so saturated.
<lapo> I think the colors are mostly ok, btw consider I'm kinda colorblind
<lapo> looks cool tho, I'll try to use it
<msikma> Oh, well, it's supposed to be brown/orange-ish.
<lapo> yeah, I'm not that colorblind :-)
<lapo> I'm usin it
<lapo> it needs to be darjer
<lapo> uh
<lapo> ugh
<lapo> darker even :-)
<msikma> Which colors can you not see, then? Isn't it so that a lot of people with partial color-blindness have trouble telling red and green apart?
<msikma> Yeah, it does. I think I'm just gonna rip off the color scheme of the current default Dapper wallpaper.
<lapo> some purple and some blues, bright green/yellow/red
<msikma> That reminds me of... cmyk.
<lapo> led colors are problematic for me, since I'm a sysadmin I need my collegue to check the lights on the network switches :-)
<lapo> I don't like very much the current color scheme of ubuntu
<lapo> the base colors are ok, not the way stuff is mixed together
<msikma> What color scheme would you prefer?
<msikma> Well, I do agree that the orangification sometimes takes on monstrous results.
<lapo> yeah, we have orange everywhere
<lapo> btw I hink we'll have to live with it
<msikma> I strongly support moderation of orange. That way the parts that are orange will have a better impact, too.
<lapo> the current ubuntu looks is kinda cold
<lapo> I think we should use a darker gray or a sand color for the gui theme base
<lapo> something warmer
<newz2000> We seem to play it cautious with wallpaper backgrounds (unless you install calendar, then you get the opposite)... it would be fun to see a little more bold/vibrant options.
<msikma> Kind of what the HumanLegacy theme has?
<lapo> yep, perhaps something a bit more saturated
<lapo> something like the brighter brown of the tango palette
<msikma> There is one thing I really don't agree with in the current human theme.
<msikma> Well, there are more things I disagree with, but one in particular.
<msikma> The color of the title bar.
<lapo> yap
<newz2000> oh really? I liked it.
<lapo> yep, that one as well
<msikma> It's strangely desaturated and different from the other orange tints and it's too bright.
<newz2000> You mean the window decoration?
<msikma> Because it's so bright it's difficult to read the title.
<lapo> yes, metacity theme
<msikma> The orange title bar at the top of windows.
<newz2000> Hmm... you know, diff monitors may show that differently. My current computer has relatively low contrast so i may not being seeing the real deal
<msikma> The brown one was better because it had a much better contrast while it didn't look bad on slightly higher saturation values.
<lapo> orange is really cool on a dark gray theme
<msikma> I've got mine calibrated pretty well. And I've checked on a couple of computers, anyway.
<newz2000> did you guys ever use ximian gnome desktop before it became part of Novell? They had a very interesting variety of backgrounds... the default was a very safe background like we use on Ubuntu, but then they had a mix of arts and photo backgrounds. I really liked the choice.
<lapo> newz2000: yes
<lapo> newz2000: that's because jimmac is a genius
<lapo> newz2000: btw check out gnome-backgrounds, I kinda proud of what we have now :-)
<msikma> I think it's awful that we can't set a few default "folders" for people to look for pictures in. We should make the background panel so that there are a few folders of different types of images. Instead, there's just a HUGE LIST.
<newz2000> really? Didn't know about that one. I will. (in windows atm though)
<lapo> just apt-get gnome-backgrounds
<msikma> And I didn't vote for any of the wallpapers when it was being held on the mailing list.
<newz2000> well, I think we have as a higher priority fitting all on one disk
<msikma> Because I didn't really like any of the choices.
<msikma> There were a few okay ones, but I didn't see any that I actually found good.
<newz2000> as we get more organized we'll spend more time coming up with good ideas and less time trying to figure out what we're doing. It's a progression and we're on our way I think.
<msikma> There are tons of free resources available for brilliant free-license photos that we could also include in Ubuntu. I don't see why we're not making use of it and will attempt to remedy this for Edgy.
<msikma> I'm peeved that we're "just" an artwork team and aren't really able to make major UI changes.
<msikma> Well, not necessarily MAJOR.
<msikma> But it would be excellent if we could toss up suggestions for UI-related things.
<msikma> I guess I'll just add some more bugreports to Gnome.
<msikma> I wish I were a C programmer.
<newz2000> I've personally talked to canonical management and their hope is to see the team become more productive and to take on responsibility once the team is more organized, and the paris meeting will take us strides close to that.
<newz2000> I can allready see huge improvements in the last 2 weeks
<newz2000> msikma: be careful what you wish for... you may get it!
<msikma> I personally am interested in doing some managing, but I'd rather just get busy with development.
<msikma> Heh, hopefully.
<msikma> :)
<msikma> Learning C is on my list of things to learn at some point.
<msikma> I think it's below Python and Modtracking.
<newz2000> Why do you want to learn C?
<msikma> Because then I could actually make valuable contributions to many Linux programs, since it seems that C is the standard language for OS-related programs in Linux.
<newz2000> ah.
<msikma> Tell me if I'm very wrong on that.
<msikma> I'm not entirely sure.
<newz2000> Well, here's a warning,
<newz2000> most of gnome/gtk uses glib, which is much harder to learn then C.
<msikma> Heh, darn.
<newz2000> I know C but going into glib applications blew my mind for about the first 15 times.
<msikma> All I know is ActionScript.
<newz2000> actionscript is based on C so the syntax is similar.
<msikma> I do know very advanced ActionScript and can probably make everything that I would ever want to in that environment, but it's still not really a real programming language.
<newz2000> The only things you'd need to really get comfortable with are pointers, structs and strong typing.
<msikma> Yeah, ActionScript doesn't give you much rope to hang yourself with.
<msikma> I've heard that arrays in C can't contain multiple data types.
<newz2000> true
<newz2000> That's what structs are for.
<newz2000> It's kind of like a class with no methods.
<msikma> So myArray = ["test", 39]  isn't correct
<msikma> How does a struct look?
<newz2000> syntax isn't fresh in my mind, so I'd strongly suggest googling for examples, lest I steer you wrong.
<msikma> What about Python? Do you know anything about that?
<newz2000> yeah, I much prefer python
<newz2000> I use it all the time
<msikma> Very cool. I hear it's rapidly becoming the favorite language of many programmers.
<lapo> python is cool
<newz2000> yeah, its the new perl.
<newz2000> or should I say, Perl++
<msikma> It was invented by a Dutchie :)
<lapo> a lot less messy then perl :-)
<newz2000> definately
<msikma> Oh, by the way, this is the coolest snippet of Actionscript that I've written: http://msikma.pastebin.com/704115 - I sometimes use this to show off to other ActionScript programmers.
<lapo> guido van rossum
<msikma> It converts XML data into an object that's easily accessible.
<newz2000> Cool.
<newz2000> When I last used AS seriously, Flash 5 was out and had just introduced xml support, but it was very rough.
<msikma> It's not really all that complicated, anyway.
<msikma> Yeah, Flash 5 had awful XML support. It was also extremely slow.
<lapo> msikma: are you old enough to have known mac os when it has a sane gui? :-)
<msikma> A slightly large site could sometimes take 10 seconds just to parse the XML.
<newz2000> Cool. It looks like they've seriously embraced dom.
<newz2000> I love the fact that once you learn dom you can bounce between many diff languages with ease.
<msikma> I think the Mac OS X 10.4 GUI is very sane. Although 10.0 through 10.3 had major flaws. 10.4 is also not without flaws, but it's still a good GUI, I would say. I've used OS9, too.
<msikma> I actually love OS9's UI.
<lapo> I liked os pre 10 very much, I can't stand osx
<newz2000> I feel very nastalgic when I see OS < X. I don't care for it though.
<msikma> I like the way OS9's UI was made. For one thing, I like that every single dialog box on the entire system was well-written and self-explanitory.
<lapo> the os underneat was very crappy, but the gui was a lot better imho
<msikma> I really miss tabbed windows at the bottom of the screen.
<lapo> yeah, osx is not that polished
<msikma> 10.2 to 10.3 was a gigantic update, though. 10.4 also brought forth a lot of good changes. I think 10.5 will be the release of an excellent UI.
<msikma> But I still think it's too bad that some extremely useful OS9 things were dropped.
<msikma> I also think that the list view in OSX is inferior to that of OS9
<lapo> yeah
<newz2000> are you both mac users when not in Linux?
<msikma> There's one thing that I think OS9 did particularly well: visual (and audiovisual) feedback.
<lapo> nope, I don't use macs since a loong time
<lapo> I'm mostly a linux user
<msikma> I used Windows computers for a long time.
<msikma> But Windows XP really isn't an enjoyable OS to use.
<lapo> yeah
<msikma> I still use it because I have a laptop which runs it, but I've bought an Intel iMac recently. I'm going to try and sell my old laptop.
<lapo> I can't stand it anymore :-)
<newz2000> My current job requires mostly Windows use, but I start a new job in July where I'll be able to switch to Linux full time.
<msikma> Neat.
<newz2000> yeah. It's been a while. I'm a little aprehensive, but I think I can handle.
<newz2000> I've got photoshop working in Linux, so now I just need to get my electronics stuff working
<lapo> when you use linux for some time you can never come back to anythin else
<newz2000> Yeah, I've switched back and forth about 5 times in the last 6 years or so.
<msikma> Man, on OS9... do any of you remember how versatile its audio engine was?
<msikma> Almost everything could get a sound.
<msikma> And things could get three sounds for just one thing-- a starting sound, a looping sound in the middle of the action, and an ending sound.
<lapo> yeah, like dnd, I relly liked that feature
<newz2000> How is that useful?
<lapo> and the sounds the defaulted to
<msikma> How is it not useful?
<msikma> It simply means the user can get better audiovisual feedback of what he is doing.
<lapo> newz2000: it was cool, the sounds were not invesive like in windows or kde
<msikma> Something doesn't necessarily need to have an actual production value to be valuable to the user.
<newz2000> The only thing I remember was that Mac could read the programs output, which was fun because you could pick the musical tone it used, but I didn't experience the other features.
<msikma> For its time, it was definitely the best system.
<lapo> usability wise surelly, the os beneath it was crappy
<msikma> I never really noticed that. All I did was work on it, and it worked just fine except the occasional crash, but that was normal back then.
<lapo> btw the bomb you get on crashes was cool :-)
<msikma> Hehe
<lapo> not as cool as the amiga guru meditation, but cool :-)
<newz2000> yeah, that was cool
<msikma> I wish that Ubuntu used Charcoal for its top menu.
<msikma> Please don't kill me for saying that. :) I just have a lot of nostalgia attached to that font. Plus, it was very readable. It was a very good font for its use.
<msikma> It had zero charm on larger sizes, though.
<lapo> yeah, a lil'fat but nice
<msikma> I think I'll hook up my old pre-G3 machine this weekend.
<msikma> Goodnight everyone.
<cyanescent> hey... anything happened in the last 2000 hours ?
<newz2000> we figured out the whole world peace thing. You'll see it hit the news sometime tomorrow. ;-)
<lapo> newz2000: you forgot the cure for cancer
<newz2000> Did we finally get that one nailed down? I thought we'd go on and on with it.
<lapo> yep, there was a specs in ubuntu.art about it :-)
<newz2000> Man, its amazing what you miss when you take a 10 min break.
<cyanescent> heh. I'll spec it
<cyanescent> Launch it all the way to the moon
<cyanescent> ugh... I'm knackered. thought there was some chat going on here after that post on the ML
<cyanescent> drunk... too bad.. will need to hit hte sack
#ubuntu-artwork 2006-06-20
<kwwii> moin
<Madpilot> hi
<kwwii> hi
<andreasn> hey kwwii, how is paris going?
<lapo> hi
<bersace|code> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/edgy-artwork
<bersace|code> oops !
<bersace|code> nothing is planned :D
<bersace|code> kwwii: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EdgyArtwork
<lapo> what the unify icon themes spec is about?
<kwwii> re
<kwwii> lapo: that spec is somewhat confusing
<lapo> yep, that's why I'm asking :-)
<kwwii> lapo: until now we have talked about being able to find some simple graphical elements that could be used to make things a bit more similar
<kwwii> but I think that that spec is supposed to mean that kde should use tango icons, which will not happen
<lapo> kwwii: tango icons = tango style icons, not tango-icon-theme
<lapo> kwwii: why don't we try to produce a new tango style theme for ubuntu?
<lapo> kwwii: we can produce a base theme, then distro specific ones with no too much stuff in (like folders, trash, nav arrows) which inherits the base theme
<lapo> if we join forces we can produce a full icon theme
<lapo> kwwii: if there's something about the tango guidelines which is wrong for kde I can try to change it
<msikma> Produce a new icon theme?
<msikma> For KDE?
<lapo> at the cost of redoing all the tango base to conform to the new guidelines
<lapo> btw I'd really like a brand new tango style theme
<msikma> I don't get what you're talking about, lapo
<lapo> msikma: a brand new base icon theme following the tango guidelines
<msikma> Why?
<msikma> We've got Tango as base and Tangerine on top of that
<msikma> I don't see why you'd want to make yet another icon theme unless you simply really really like making icons.
<lapo> msikma: I think the point of human is being different, so mark will never see tango base as a nice alternative
<msikma> I think that's a ridiculous way of thinking.
<lapo> the human theme cannot be complete, it's simply too much work
<lapo> msikma: tell him :-)
<msikma> There's plenty of other things to be done beside making yet another COMPLETE icon theme.
<msikma> lapo: I'm telling you since apparently you agree with him.
<lapo> msikma: btw I see nothing wrong with doing a complete theme
<lapo> msikma: tangerine is my fault do you think I agree with him? :-)
<msikma> Other than the fact it takes a huge amount of time and also means throwing away everything we already have?
<lapo> msikma: I tryied to push tango in ubuntu very hard, believe me, but mark is not ok with it
<msikma> lapo: if you disagree, then why are you thinking about making yet another complete icon theme? I say we openly doubt such a bad design decision. Different for the sake of being different is bad.
<lapo> msikma: I think the point of human is that one
<lapo> msikma: for several reason
<lapo> lemme explain
<lapo> kde people doen't see tango base as a viable solution for them
<lapo> mark is not ok with tango
<msikma> Tango is the future icon base of all of Linux.
<lapo> but I feel tango guidelines is the only solution to have a pretty nice looking desktop
<msikma> I have no doubt about that.
<lapo> msikma: I hope that
<msikma> If Mark really wants different icons because he simply likes difference then let him hire a team to finish the Human set. As long as it fits in with Tango-style icons. I think it's ridiculous to let an artwork team, that already has a billion things to do, make a new icon theme because apparently brilliant and uniqe existing themes aren't good enough.
<lapo> msikma: it is what he is doing already
<msikma> Then why are we worried about icons?
<lapo> beacuse I'd really like a common icon theme for all *buntus
<lapo> common or almost common
<msikma> So you'd make a completely new icon set that's different and then hope that difference was really Mark's reason for not using Tango?
<msikma> I'd get more certainty on that if I were you.
<lapo> msikma: I don't know exactly what is wrong with tango for mark, it's a my assumption that he want something original
<lapo> msikma: I chatted with mark about it severa times, w/o getting anything out of it
<lapo> that's the only solution I have at the moment
<lapo> kwwii: ?
<msikma> #@$!$#@!$!@#$#@!%$#!@$^%%$^#@^@%$^@#$%%$#!@$#!@$#@!
<neodreams> :p
<msikma> How does that guy even expect to ever make Linux a viable desktop alternative when he's apparently against consistency.
<msikma> I will toss this up on the mailing list.
<lapo> msikma: I think mark do not have an "artistic" eye, I don't think he is against consistency
<lapo> msikma: I simply think he is not disturbed by the icon mix uubuntu is using by default as I am :-)
<newz2000> I've not actually noticed any oddities with the icons (except the firefox icon). Which ones are a mix?
<lapo> newz2000: human+tang*
<newz2000> I didn't even notice
<msikma> I do agree with that.
<lapo> I do
<msikma> The alternative icon theme isn't perfect.
<newz2000> Someone just picked the best from human and tango and combined them?
<msikma> And the orangification has sometimes taken on extremes.
<lapo> newz2000: nope, human, fallback to tangerine and then tango for missing icons, and since it has *lots* of missing icons you have a messy mix (well, imho)
<newz2000> oh, i see. I remember that being decided now that you mention it.
<newz2000> Honestly, since I'm not intimate with those different icon sets I hadn't even noticed though.
<msikma> Does Human have SVG versions?
<lapo> msikma: yep, but that's tangerine scope, to orangify tango
<lapo> msikma: for a few icons, for 128x128+ rendering tho
<msikma> Ah, so the icons that were developed by a professional team aren't in SVG?
<msikma> Except for a few.
<kwwii> sorry, network keeps going down here
<lapo> msikma: tangerine starting point was this one: http://xoomer.alice.it/bat/orango-tango/side-by-side.png
<lapo> msikma: right
<lapo> msikma: the rest was added later
<lapo> kwwii: I was asking you, what's wrong with tango guidelines in respect of kde? We can change try to change the guidelines if you think it may help
<lapo> s/change try/try to change/
<lapo> ugh, weel you get it, right? :-)
<kwwii> lapo: to be honest, there is simply no interest in using those icons in kde
<kwwii> lapo: I have asked sooo many kubuntu users
<lapo> kwwii: what abuot trying something new tano styled?
<lapo> kwwii: what about trying something new tango styled?
<coz_> morning all
<coz_> i am going to leave a link to some of the work I have posted on ubuntu forums... if any of you fel I have something to contribute towards edgy , in any way, let me know, i will be coming in and out of here so... here is the link....http://www.ubuntuforums.org/gallery/browseimages.php?perpage=45&catid=member&imageuser=44394  ..ther are I think 34 pices there
<kwwii> lapo: to be honest, we are busy working on oxygen, so I do not think that even a new tango style would help
* kwwii has to go to another meeting, be back a bit later (and we can discuss this further)
<bersace|code> repost http://www.ubuntuforums.org/gallery/browseimages.php?perpage=45&catid=member&imageuser=44394
<newz2000> I worked on my theory last night of using a make file to regenerate artwork for distro-specific icons/graphics. Do you guys thing there would be any benefit to implementing it?
<newz2000> bersace:oh, just got your msg
<msikma> Okay, little late, but I sent the mail
<msikma> So you may respond to it and let your voice be heard with Tangerine/Tango in mind
<troy_s_Paris> moin
<troy_s_Paris> anyone home?
<msikma> Hi
<troy_s_Paris> 19 folks... wow
<troy_s_Paris> greetings sik, how you doing?
<msikma> Now... if only they would stay...
<msikma> Doing fine here. Kind of busy at work.
<troy_s_Paris> network has been up and down all day unfortunately
<msikma> Ah, I see
<troy_s_Paris> kwwii, you here peachy?
<lapo> msikma: I'll respond later
<bersace|code> troy_s_Paris: hi
<troy_s_Paris> greetings lapo
<bersace|code> kwwii: is at a meeting
<lapo> msikma: nice mail tho
<troy_s_Paris> he was.
<lapo> ciao troy_s
<troy_s_Paris> he isn't now.
<bersace|code> ok
<troy_s_Paris> just as an fyi
<troy_s_Paris> sabdfl has chosen three spec targets for edgy
<troy_s_Paris> greetings et!
<newz2000> troy_s_Paris: how's paris?
<lapo> expensive :-)
<troy_s_Paris> i added a wiki specifications template et, let klepas know
<troy_s_Paris> we are going to bang out the four specifications in full
<troy_s_Paris> they are already there, then sabdfl will priority them or link them to another tracking artwork spec
<troy_s_Paris> paris is rather... busy
<lapo> troy_s_Paris: what are those specs about?
<troy_s_Paris> no time for any real normal stuff... it is all about work
<troy_s_Paris> lapo: it is ultimately four targets... a themed usplash, login manager, login splash, and wallpaper
<troy_s_Paris> those are the four
<newz2000> cool
<troy_s_Paris> nothing else will be on the table
<troy_s_Paris> for a number of reasons
<troy_s_Paris> a)that is a lot of work \
<newz2000> Are we going to get the opportunity to introduce more color and background choices on the desktop?
<troy_s_Paris> b) sabdfl wants to implement the process design doc that is almost finished
<troy_s_Paris> c) deadline managment
<troy_s_Paris> d) let everyone learn the tools (launchpad, wiki specking, bzr )
<troy_s_Paris> palette isn't really an option
<newz2000> We've got a great pallete, we just don't use all of it.
<troy_s_Paris> everyone is free to deal with their own themes, but this is strictly pertaining to the default install
<lapo> uhm...those specs consist in too few things I fear, you cannot have an uniform lookandfeel w/o woutching other stuff
<lapo> btw sound fine to me
<troy_s_Paris> further still, edgy development is basically 10 weeks till lock
<newz2000> whoa
<troy_s_Paris> (which is more or less a portion of our development cycle now)
<troy_s_Paris> we are going to follow the developer's cycle (as we are now really a part of the team, so everyone will expect to eat up bugs and such)
<newz2000> Did he mention a potential realease date?
<troy_s_Paris> release date is on the wiki under edgy cycle if you wish to look
<troy_s_Paris> lapo: we all agree that unifying things is very complicated
<troy_s_Paris> lapo: and your concerns have been addressed a number of times, the reality is however that we are actually trying to use launchpad, bzr, etc, so sabdfl has chosen to keep the goals very simple and specific
<troy_s_Paris> lapo: assuming this works fluidly, we are very much in terrific shape...
<lapo> ok, let's wait edgy+1 for the Real Stuff(TM) :-)
<troy_s_Paris> further still, we now have a unifying artwork team for kubuntu and ubuntu (kubuntu ken is here now and we have all been chatting at great length...
<troy_s_Paris> well everyone really likes the idea of cycling a few elements every release -- to provide for a really nice 'new' feel
<troy_s_Paris> not icons, but perhaps the four things we have listed in specs for this cycle, plus more depedning on how we come together as a team to share workload etc.
<troy_s_Paris> icons are human, but there is some speculation of working towards svgs of them, etc.
<troy_s_Paris> lapo: and yes, edgy+1 is going to be determined by how people learn the tools... everyone needs to learn how to spec clearly, everyone needs to learn how to use the launchpad etc, and everyone needs to really elevate themselves to finish this with complete quality.
<troy_s_Paris> if we achieve this, we can expect terrific things.
<lapo> gimp is tango now, you will be assimilated :-)
<lapo> later, but you will :-)
<troy_s_Paris> it will require some learning as people are going to need to learn how to work within other confines
<troy_s_Paris> meaning that if the decision is made to say, follow lapo's login splash proposal (very clearly outlined manifesto is in the works), then we all expect variations on that login splash... gradually working towards a final polished product.
<troy_s_Paris> once a deadline is met, that is the path we are taking.  no changing things and having the nightmare that happened towards the end of dapper.  that has been made _very_ clear
<troy_s_Paris> coffee for a second... brb
<troy_s_Paris> you can see the art team spec outline at wiki under artwork team for now
<troy_s_Paris> we are going to finish up the specs for the four.
<troy_s_Paris> also, it has been made clear that we are to implement a very clear and concise mailing list protocol.  there will indeed be topic lines and templates.  anything outside/off topic will be poliltely forwarded to the mailinglist howto on the wiki
<troy_s_Paris> 20 members
<troy_s_Paris> wowsers
<newz2000> can you give an example?
<newz2000> what do you mean by protocol?
<msikma> Clear and concise mailing list protocol?
<troy_s_Paris> newz2000: yes... there are say, four perhaps more topics to post under so that you can create rules in your mail program
<troy_s_Paris> they will notify you of various things such as milestones approaching etc.
<troy_s_Paris> sabdfl wants no further random musings... he really wants clear direction forwards, and i think the plan in place is pretty damn cool in terms of terrific structuring.
<newz2000> That statement implies that the mailing list will be business only, less discussion... or will one of those protocols be "loose"?
<msikma> So we have 10 weeks, you say?
<newz2000> Interesting
<troy_s_Paris> msikma: sort of... depends on what you view as 'locked'
<troy_s_Paris> msikma: still to be determined... i am pushing for final composition lock without colour and fine polishing.
<newz2000> For programmers, locked means that no new features, only refinements and bug fixes.
<troy_s_Paris> msikma: but we will see how that all evolves.
<msikma> Bah. Terrific structuring, you call it. You can't leave out wild and random ideas that might prove to be terrific contributions. I won't hold back on notifying the entire mailing list if I have a new idea.
<troy_s_Paris> newz2000: yep.  and we need to factor that into account.
<troy_s_Paris> msikma: there is a place for it in the development structure
<bersace|code> troy_s_Paris: if you want xchat to ping me, use my nick (e.g. bersace|code) instead of "et"
<newz2000> mskikma: don't judge yet, let's see how it works first.
<troy_s_Paris> there is going to be a very clear leadership structure that will tell you when that time is over etc.
<msikma> How long will that take?
<bersace|code> just a tips
<troy_s_Paris> msikma: how long will what take sorry?
<msikma> What I just mentioned. The drafting time, I guess you would call it.
<troy_s_Paris> msikma: there is a planning period where people can throw out all sorts of textures, motifs, loose styles, etc...
<msikma> Yes, and how long do you think that would take?
<troy_s_Paris> without any sort of submissions.  imagine where someone say, submits a jpg of a flower as a sort of texture, then someone else submits glass as a concept... etc.
<troy_s_Paris> then proposals are built out of those textures.
<troy_s_Paris> msikma: and sabdfl has been very clear regarding the mailing list (as well as a bunch of other folks) regarding business only
<msikma> So there's a phase for drafting and then later there's an actual conceptual stage where we figure out what we're going to be building for Edgy?
<troy_s_Paris> pretty sure there will be an offtopic for the other stuff.
<msikma> There's a difference between business and useful braindumps.
<msikma> I don't care about offtopic chatter.
<troy_s_Paris> msikma: basically it flows like this - we cull the specs at the beginning -- meaning nothing unspeced is even looked at (and again, you have a full cycle to get your full specs in)
<newz2000> I'm all for auto-categorizing, but I'd hate to stifle new ideas
<troy_s_Paris> newz2000: i am curious why you think deadlines and structure amount to stifling.  they amount to production.  they amount to simple reality when working in the confines of a project.
<troy_s_Paris> after the spec cull
<troy_s_Paris> (which basically has happened already here if you look at laucnhpad regarding edgy specs)
<troy_s_Paris> then we move into knowing our targets for the given release as per the specs submitted
<newz2000> I'm not saying deadlines and structures are stifling, but structure *can* stifle. My comment was merely, "I hope this is implemented in such a way that it allows the community to thrive"
<troy_s_Paris> then we choose motifs, themes, possible palette hues, and all that wonderfully creative stuffs including references to outside stuff.
<troy_s_Paris> newz2000: we are all actively trying to pursue that, and from what i have seen thus far, i am pretty excited about the direction.
<msikma> You call that structure. I call it smothering of late (good) ideas. My experience is that if you REALLY want to make a nice product, you're going to have to be able to accept good ideas that are a little late and put in extra effort to make sure they can still be implemented.
<msikma> I think that plain ignoring such mails isn't a good idea.
<troy_s_Paris> msikma: that's nice.
<troy_s_Paris> msikma:  mail gets nothign done, there is a place for it... spec it
<troy_s_Paris> we want everyone to be encouraged to spec it all... the real folks who need to see the stuff rely on the spec listings.
<msikma> All I'm saying is that you shouldn't reduce yourself to just blindly following specs. When someone has a good idea, that might not be specced immediately.
<troy_s_Paris> msikma:  and waht about deadlines?
<troy_s_Paris> if a good idea pops up 9.4 weeks... you want to ditch the current path?
<troy_s_Paris> it does not work.
<msikma> I didn't say that.
<troy_s_Paris> it is why in every art driven project, you have very hard deadlines, and you follow and build upon all of the work you have done thus far.  it is only one release, we have time to experiment and move on.
<msikma> All I'm saying is that IF a new idea pops up late during the cycle which is good and can be implemented then you shouldn't ignore it because "we're past that stage".
<newz2000> msikma: sometimes you have to wait for the next version
<msikma> I agree.
<msikma> But I'm not saying that.
<troy_s_Paris> newz2000: brilliant.
<msikma> I'm saying that IF you CAN implement a late idea, then you should put in some effort and get it done if it's a great benefit.
<troy_s_Paris> newz2000: the reality is that the scheduling is very strict... and we only have so long to churn something out, then you need to account for all sorts of testing etc.
<troy_s_Paris> composition, etc will all be locked at various stages
<troy_s_Paris> leaving everyone to focus on polishing up the current works
<troy_s_Paris> etc.
<troy_s_Paris> and work out the bugs...
<msikma> Okay but you do understand what I am saying, right?
<msikma> Because a lot of your replies make me think you don't. But if you do, then that's fine.
<newz2000> My points about the structure of the list were that I hope the opportunity to discuss things freely will still be possible, even if someoen says, "I'd really like to try and get this into spec [abc] , is it possible?"
<troy_s_Paris> newz2000: there is exactly that point
<msikma> I don't encourage or condone working behind deadlines.
<troy_s_Paris> newz2000: but it does terminate
<newz2000> The answer may be, "no, not possible"
<troy_s_Paris> newz2000: nope... we want to try everything, which is why it is imperitive that you start looking at some of the other specs
<msikma> The last thing I want is useful mail to the list being bounced with "Sorry, we're working on a deadline, go take your good ideas and go someplace else".
<troy_s_Paris> and make sure that you write a spec that someone can pick up in  a heartbeat and read
<troy_s_Paris> msikma: at some point, you will certainly be dissapointed then.
<msikma> Speccing isn't everything. Mailing is quick, mailing is useful, mailing allows direct personal replies.
<troy_s_Paris> there are going to be deadlines
<newz2000> I'll have to investiate the spec... to this point, I've thought of them as nothing more than a mail bomb.
<troy_s_Paris> there is a new belief that the malinglist is irritating people
<msikma> troy_s_Paris: I don't see how you can think that I disagree with deadlines.
<troy_s_Paris> (and believe me, we don't want that)
<msikma> A new belief? Of those in Paris?
<troy_s_Paris> msikma: did i say you disagree with deadlines?
<msikma> Not everybody is in Paris.
<msikma> You said that "I was going to be disappointed since there will be deadlines"
<troy_s_Paris> i said ONE thing... milestones are deadlines... meaning when the time comes, a phase is sort of ready to move forward
<troy_s_Paris> deadlines meaning there are 'phases' of dev that will end.
<msikma> I understand this.
<troy_s_Paris> that's all i am saying
<troy_s_Paris> nothing more
<msikma> And you're making a big deal of a small something that I'm saying.
<troy_s_Paris> actually no, i would prefer to move on
<msikma> I agree with deadlines. It's great to work with them. It will get things done for a change.
<msikma> But I don't think that you should just say "sorry, but there's no time for this" when I talk about simple mailing list discussion.
<troy_s_Paris> msikma: it is a very much graduated deadline approach... there isn't 1 deadling -- that doesn't work.
<troy_s_Paris> as we can recall from before
<msikma> I don't see why you keep talking about deadlines.
<troy_s_Paris> msikma: the mailing list isn't the place
<troy_s_Paris> for that sort of thing... you place your specs, then the big wigs will look at them
<msikma> The mailing list is our central method of collaboration discussion.
<troy_s_Paris> so i guess if you really care about something, the trick appears to be to make your case
<troy_s_Paris> in a well laid out spec
<troy_s_Paris> martin pitts specs have been quite good and respected thus far, as an example
<msikma> I repeat: the mailing list is our main method of communication.
<msikma> What's wrong with that?
<newz2000> mskima: I think you might be mis-understanding what troy is saying... the mailing list will still be there, but the answer to a post maybe, "we need to put this off until we finish our current tasks."
<troy_s_Paris> newz2000: indeed.  there is also a deferred state for specs, etc... it depends on a number of things, some of which aren't easy to negotiate.
<msikma> I'll be very glad if it turns out that I'm misunderstanding him. I don't agree with speccing every single idea. The mailing list is much faster and more useful.
<troy_s_Paris> for example, in a very particular detail
<troy_s_Paris> msikma: it simply wont get done.  do what you want, but i am telling oyu this entire bof is all about launchpad
<msikma> And I don't really care if a few people are annoyed with e-mails.
<troy_s_Paris> every single table discussing things now are discussing specs at launchpad, and adding to the drafting.
<msikma> The mailing list is traditionally the best method of communication.
<troy_s_Paris> msikma, you might not, but others do.
<msikma> And if you guys spec things, that's fine.
<msikma> But I don't see why we can't keep our main communication in the mailing list.
<troy_s_Paris> personally, i don't really mind either way.
<msikma> I will spec things that need to be done, but I won't initiate any new ideas on the Launchpad. If I want something to be done for Edgy, I'll first throw it up on the mailing list and then later spec it.
<troy_s_Paris> _and_, i might add, this pertains to the default only
<msikma> I've made a spec for the Ubuntu title font today. I'm not against Launchpad or anything.
<msikma> But it was made after a mail on the list.
<msikma> The list is, afterall, still the place you'd first go to. Sending a mail is fast and simple.
<troy_s_Paris> there is massive room in other themes and such for everyone to refine everything that they want if they can gather momentum with it.
<troy_s_Paris> msikma: there are two things you will need to do if you want it to even get considered... launchpad spec with the wiki link as per the templates (working on them from existing respected templates)
<msikma> Wiki link as per the templates?
<msikma> Do you mean the "read more" link?
<newz2000> be back soon
<troy_s_Paris> when you post a spec there is a 'wiki link' for the spec iirc
<troy_s_Paris> and that will be located underneath the proper dir (as per pascal and bersace|code 's restructure)
<troy_s_Paris> and there is quite a bit of work to do so everyone will hopefully participate in both kubuntu and ubuntu helping out where help is needed.
<bersace|code> good, xchat notify me :)
<troy_s_Paris> bersace|code: there is a quick template at the artworkteam wiki root, we will dump the four specs there.
<troy_s_Paris> they are already there, but they are obviously unfinished as neil just tried to get them into the system, we will refine those four for clarity
<bersace|code> troy_s_Paris: why not use https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtworkTeam/LaunchpadSpecificationsTemplate2?action=edit&template=SpecTemplate
<troy_s_Paris> that's the one i just put in lol
<troy_s_Paris> it is based on martin pitt's several good ones
<bersace|code> without replacement :(
<troy_s_Paris> just with the text ripped
<troy_s_Paris> ???
<bersace|code> you should keep the @VARIABLE@
<bersace|code> s
<troy_s_Paris> didn't see it... feel free to patch it... that's the content.
<bersace|code> ok
<troy_s_Paris> ken and frank want the template in place, so i just hurried one out
<troy_s_Paris> but that is based on martins
<troy_s_Paris> sorry
<troy_s_Paris> power issue :)
<msikma> Anyway, I'm glad you guys are doing all this reorganisation.
<troy_s_Paris> msikma: hopefully it will let you really dump a bunch of good stuff
<bersace|code> done : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtworkTeam/SpecTemplate
<troy_s_Paris> msikma:and it also gives us a great paper trail so when someone pops up and says, 'why don't we do xxx or yyy', and if that has been tried and perhaps isn't possible at the moment (as some of the limitations of usplash for example) we can just point to the spec
<troy_s_Paris> bersace|code: you and pas going to move that stuffs to artwork at some point you guys were saying?
<troy_s_Paris> bersace|code: because i figure that the launchpad specs will need that subpage so that they can all list there, if you know what i mean
<msikma> So where do we put such pages?
<bersace|code> i think we need more polish to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/%c3%89tienneBersac/ArtworkReOrganisation/NewTree
<bersace|code> Artwork/Specs/*
<bersace|code> using https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtworkTeam/SpecTemplate
<msikma>  /ArtworkTeam/Specname?
<msikma> ah
<msikma> Sepcs
<bersace|code> or https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Specs/SpecTemplate
<msikma> *Specs
<troy_s_Paris> bersace|code: indeed
<bersace|code> create Artwork/Specs/YourSpec
<msikma> Not ArtworkTeam?
<troy_s_Paris> bersace|code: by descriptive title, not the short title
<troy_s_Paris> msikma: i think pascal wanted to migrate it all into a unified artwork structure
<troy_s_Paris> greetings jgot!
<troy_s_Paris> as in
<troy_s_Paris> wiki/Artwork/blah
<jsgotangco> troy_s_Paris: greetings
<troy_s_Paris> jsgotangco: how you doing?
<msikma> By the way, all this organisation has confused me a little as to when the phases will end. I suppose the drafting phase has yet to begin. So when will be the time for me to actually publish my thoughts on the Ubuntu system's artwork and what I believe we should do for Edgy to improve it?
<jsgotangco> heh tired already in a final bof session for the day upstairs
<troy_s_Paris> jsgotangco: everyone is exhausted here... it is pretty intense and non stop
<troy_s_Paris> msikma: there are basically 5? phases
<jsgotangco> troy_s_Paris: yes its always like that this is my 2nd time participating in a summit
<jsgotangco> but its fun!
<jsgotangco> troy_s_Paris: too bad we're in the middle of nowhere
<troy_s_Paris> jsgotangco: its damn tiring... and i am jetlagged all to heck
<troy_s_Paris> jsgotangco: reallyyyyyyyy bad today
<jsgotangco> heh i'll brb a bit
<troy_s_Paris> msikma: the draft will allocate a certain number of units so that by the end of the target spec examination, we can easily 'map' a schedule breakdown with hard dates to the final cycle schedule
<troy_s_Paris> msikma: it is pretty straighforwards as percents...
<troy_s_Paris> msikma: you can publish your thoughts in a spec format, but i would wait until we have the four up as these are as per sabdfl's preferences on specs
<bersace|code> all, now please use Artwork/PageTemplate
<troy_s_Paris> msikma: then you can be assured that your ideas will be tackled one by one by both the community and the devs etc
<msikma> Okay.
<msikma> So I will wait for this new planning to be created first, you recommend.
<troy_s_Paris> msikma specs are very good that way
<troy_s_Paris> msikma: no... the planning is pretty much on track, it is really the 'how' to post a good spec outline\
<troy_s_Paris> you can take a look at the existing spec template
<troy_s_Paris> and here... i snag you a link for a good dev link
<troy_s_Paris> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LangpacksDesktopfilesKDE
<troy_s_Paris> that's the one that sabdfl put up on the screen as the example of a well laid out spec complete with Use Cases, where applicaable
<troy_s_Paris> the "Use Cases" for changing the four, is basically something like "Betty likes every new version of ubuntu, she looks forwards to seeing the new splashes and such signifying each new release.  " blah blah
<troy_s_Paris> that sort of thing
<msikma> Ah, okay
<troy_s_Paris> they are pretty big on the use cases, so make sure you offer one or two
<troy_s_Paris> msikma: does that help you at all?
<troy_s_Paris> msikma: also, iirc, there is a laucnhpad spec in that wiki link
<msikma> But this sort of spec seems more for specific things. What in the case of me having a much longer critique? Should I just make a whole lot of different specs for the ideas that I have?
<troy_s_Paris> msikma: you will need to deal with the global issues as a braindump i think, then if it progresses from there, i am pretty sure that the spec would need subdividing so that the devs can track status
<msikma> Yeah, that's very useful, though I was personally thinking of writing some kind of critique with suggestions as to how we could improve in the form of a wiki page with appropriate headers. Though I could also do it this way if this is more useful.
<troy_s_Paris> msikma: that structure is already in place -- et and klepas are the folks who are pretty much on that
<troy_s_Paris> msikma: so pass your thoughts onto them directly
<newz2000> We figured you all were partying your socks off ;-)
<troy_s_Paris> bersace|code that is, in this forum
<troy_s_Paris> newz2000: yah ... well i don't drink and no, i am dead tired.
<newz2000> oops, sorry for that off topic... I thought I'd completely caught up
<troy_s_Paris> newz2000: it really is non-stop ubuntu / kubuntu bonkers
<troy_s_Paris> laf
<newz2000> troy_s_Paris:Yeah, well, I don't drink either, but I can still party
<troy_s_Paris> henrik is here too... which is very cool
<jsgotangco> yeah
<troy_s_Paris> he has his full rig including head tracking mouse, etc
<newz2000> whoa. Tell him hi for me
<troy_s_Paris> crappers... look at the people again... kind of strange\
<jsgotangco> troy_s_Paris: its nice meeting henrik since i've worked with him for a year already but this is the first time i met him
<troy_s_Paris> he is terrific
<troy_s_Paris> busy though :)
<jsgotangco> troy_s_Paris: has he discussed art.ubuntu.com with you?
<troy_s_Paris> jsgotangco: have you been there lately?
<troy_s_Paris> klepas updated it recently...
<jsgotangco> troy_s_Paris: sorry i haven't although i have admin rights on that server
<troy_s_Paris> jsgotangco: klepas has.  although iirc there was a colloquialism in there
<troy_s_Paris> msikma: i think it has been good because you really get a feeling for how the flow works, which i will hopefully wiki at some point, but it should be clear
<troy_s_Paris> basically, everyone specs to the best of their ability, then the heavy hitters all look over all the specs one by one
<troy_s_Paris> and filter... then the ones they want get approved
<troy_s_Paris> then the team works on polishing up the drafting of the spec (which is what this bof is about bascially -- if you watch launchpad you will see the current edgy ones evolving via drafting)
<troy_s_Paris> then the team takes over and runs with it.
<troy_s_Paris> subject to approval of course, as per the heavy hitters
<troy_s_Paris> if you have something that is a massive change, that edgy listing is there... you can pretty much be assured that it will get looked at :)
<jsgotangco> heh i see you're observing the summit very well
<troy_s_Paris> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+specs
<troy_s_Paris> that's the starting point for edgy stuff... but they are already heavy into the stuffs.
<troy_s_Paris> msikma: bersace|code
<troy_s_Paris> grr
<troy_s_Paris> wrong sorry
<bersace|code> hh
<troy_s_Paris> bersace|code: i am going to put the four spec entries under artwork team ok?
<troy_s_Paris> then you can copy them etc from there
<bersace|code> troy_s_Paris: put them on Artwork/Specs/
<troy_s_Paris> thank you
<troy_s_Paris> will do
<bersace|code> using Artwork/Specs/SpecTemplate
<troy_s_Paris> EEK
<bersace|code> troy_s_Paris: you can see the work at : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CategoryArtwork
<troy_s_Paris> what is gfxbootscreen?\
<troy_s_Paris> or is that all needing cleanup etc?
<bersace|code> where ?
<troy_s_Paris> bottm in subpages off of artwork root
<bersace|code> that's an old child of Artwork
<troy_s_Paris> ahhhhh
<bersace|code> to be renamed to Incoming/ ...
<bersace|code> not !
<troy_s_Paris> cool
<troy_s_Paris>  @username@ is slick!
<bersace|code> already a redirection to ArtworkTeam/Drafts/GfxBoot :P
<bersace|code> What is that https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtworkTeam/Meetings and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtworkTeam/Meetings/Agenda nightmare ???
<troy_s_Paris> i don't seeo ne... haven't looked
<troy_s_Paris> what nightmare?
<troy_s_Paris> bersace|code:
<troy_s_Paris> ?
<troy_s_Paris> Dammit
<troy_s_Paris> i just torched specs by accident et
<bersace|code> that pages are just use like there were mailing list :(
<troy_s_Paris> bersace|code: you will need to replace it... grr... i will move it to the correct stuffs
<troy_s_Paris> okay... hopefully it didn't break.
<bersace|code> what's that : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Specs ?
<troy_s_Paris> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Specs/ChangeLoginSplashImage
<troy_s_Paris> changed name, you will need to root page taht specs page
<bersace|code> yep
<kwwii> re
<bersace|code> troy_s_Paris: done
* lapo drum roll
<lapo> tada: http://jimmac.musichall.cz/screenshots/gimp-light-tango.png
<lapo> gimp got assimilated :-)
<klepas> bloody awesome
<klepas> sorry haven't been able to chat...
<klepas> exams begin tomorrow
<klepas> so g'nite
<offs_> hi people...
<troy_s_Paris> hi offs
<bersace|code> lapo: nice !
<offs> troy_s_Paris, how are you?
<lapo> bersace|code: yeah, tango rulez! :-)
<offs> troy_s_Paris, how is the meeting?
<klepas_Zzz> paris coming along nicely?
<offs> I'm lost a little... I was busy very much.. so I'm free now...
<troy_s_Paris> meeting is tiring... lots of ubuntu/k stuffs
<troy_s_Paris> kwwii is here too, as you probably know
<kwwii> and it is a rocking good time :-)
<bersace|code> troy_s_Paris: what to do with : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtworkTeam/Drafts/EdgyColourProposals/Howto
<bersace|code> That should be a spec :?
<troy_s_Paris> yep
<troy_s_Paris> it should.
<troy_s_Paris> neil is tweaking it apparently... i don't know... perhaps you should post that people shouldn't wiki until the restructure is finished.
<offs> what's the original troy? :)
<kwwii> bersace|code: the spec template on the wiki rocks! good work :-)
<bersace|code> kwwii: thanks
<offs> bersace|code, I've added you in jabber... have you seen some there?
<bersace|code> offs: my jabber id is bersace@gmail.com
<bersace|code> i didn't receive any request
<offs> I think that I added this.. let me verify
<bersace|code> troy_s_Paris: i updated https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Archives/6.06/Ubuntu
<bersace|code> how can we handle "Outdoors", "Gray" and other additionnal themes
<bersace|code> all in the same pages ?
<bersace|code> i think that we should create subpage for "Human", "Outdoors", etc. that include icons, gtk+ & metacity and an overview screenshot
<bersace|code> troy_s_Paris: right ?
<klepas_Zzz> yea
<klepas_Zzz> the tango one could definitely use one :)
<klepas_Zzz> ack, back to sleep :)
<bersace|code> offs: got it
<troy_s_Paris> sorry
<offs> ok.. I saw.. :)
<troy_s_Paris> busy wikifying the four specs sabdfl wants
<bersace|code> can you please tell me your Name ? (just for the contact list)
<troy_s_Paris> the original troy, by the way, is me back in canada with my box idling
<offs> ribeiro, thiago from brasil
<bersace|code> Ribeiro Thiago ?
<kwwii> the other way around I guess
<offs> thiago ribeiro
<troy_s_Paris> bersace|code: if he wants involvment, that launchpad team is a good starting point
<bersace|code> hh !! https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Archives/ArchiveTemplate
<bersace|code> offs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork?highlight=%28CategoryArtwork%29#head-0317595db520fb13120558e05a035f910ebe98a7
<offs> tks
<bersace|code> troy_s_Paris: should we drop /Tasks in favor of specs ?
<bersace|code> nice :(
<lapo> hi
<PseudoPlacebo> I love you all.
<jsgotangco> yes you too
<neodreams> I love bling bling
#ubuntu-artwork 2006-06-21
<lapo> hi
<kwwii> moin
<lapo> yo kwwii
<kwwii> howdy lapo
<kwwii> ok, about time for lunch here
<kwwii> be back in about an hour
<msikma> Hi everyone
<adamant1988> hello
<msikma> Hey guys, if I want to let others know that I am working on something, how would I best add that to the spec?
<msikma> An already existing spec, that is.
<adamant1988> u hm, I don't think they're adding anything atm
<adamant1988> I contributed a couple of artworks to the art.ubuntu site, but they've not been added.
<msikma> I'm not talking about art.ubuntu.
<msikma> I'm talking about the wiki pages that go along with the Launchpad specs.
<klepas> adamant1988: have you read the notice on art.ubuntu.com?
<adamant1988> yeah
<klepas> :)
<adamant1988> I'd like to get my things added though, I'd offer to try and help out on the team but I have two jobs and just wouldn't have the time for it =\
<klepas> adamant1988: there are various content management problems with the current CMS running art.ubuntu.com (AUC)
<klepas> bersace|code: ping
<bersace|code> klepas: yep ?
<bersace|code> klepas: i did a lot of work for the migration yesterday and today
<bersace|code> all work done is viewable at : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CategoryArtwork
<klepas> yea
<klepas> just reading some of the ML posts
<klepas> i apologise for not having been able to really contribute yet
<klepas> exam week began 9 AM today. Only half a week left and i'm free for roughly 4 weeks :)
<bersace|code> nice
<bersace|code> you can still review all work
<bersace|code> that will be very very useful
<klepas> sure
<neodreams> net split
<bersace|code> hh ! :)
<kwwii> hez bersace|code, its troy here typing on kens lappy
<bersace|code> so kwwii is troy ?
<kwwii> for a second or two
<kwwii> not long, as i must resume writing stuffs etc
<kwwii> but here for a second
<kwwii> much action on the mailing list?
<kwwii> bersace|code?
<bersace|code> ?
<kwwii> just wondering, i havent been able to check my mail, so i dont really know
<newz2000> kwwii: there's been little activity in the last 20 hours or so
<newz2000> asuming you mean ubuntu-art
<kwwii> newz2000: yah.  its troy here temporarily
<newz2000> I mean "there's been no actity"
<kwwii> how you doing newz2000?
<newz2000> Good. Trudging along coding in 'xsl' the unprogramming language.
<newz2000> How's the meeting?
<kwwii> newz2000: well i feel a bit better today.  still tiring.
<newz2000> Well, by the time you get used to the time it's time to go home. That's what I hear at least
<kwwii> indeed
<newz2000> Still feel productive and excited?
<kwwii> well its a lot of work, but the structuring is coming along nicely.  clearing up licensing issues, deadline setting, etc
<kwwii> need to get bzr up to speed with daniel, but i imagine that will be tomorrow
<newz2000> I haven't tried it out yet. I suspect I'm going to have to get up to speed on it as well.
<kwwii> not so much bzr (unless you take an uploader role at some point), but certainly launchpad
<newz2000> yeah, that too.
<kwwii> i will try to get a howto out in clear detail with step by step info on speccing, but it should be clear to anyone who looks over those four new artwork specs
<bersace|code> kwwii: just type /nick troy_s
<kwwii> they are now complete more or less.  simple, but it is a good example to start with
<kwwii> bersace|code: i cant im using kens lap and he is logged into a bunch of channels
<bersace|code> ok*
<newz2000> kwwii: where are you from?
<kwwii> newz2000: its troy, using kens irc right now... just thought i would drop in.  launchpad has my details under troy-sobotka though i think
<kwwii> newz2000: vancouver, british columbia, canada more or less
<newz2000> kwwii: yeah, I know it's you. I figured you were from north america because of your jet lag. Are there many people there at the meeting from this side of the ocean?
<kwwii> not too many, but a few.
<newz2000> is there anyone there taking pictures? It would be interesting to get a glimpse of what goes on at one of those.
<kwwii> anywho, i should get back to some doccing.  be good folks.  peace.
<kwwii> ya i will...
<newz2000> ok. TTYL.
<kwwii> there are a few alreadz, but i will snag some
<kwwii> darn german kezboards
<kwwii> ok... out.
<newz2000> :-D
* kwwii is now ken again.  lol.
<msikma_> Okay so
<msikma_> If I want to add myself to a spec
<msikma_> As someone who's working on something
<msikma_> How would I do that?
<bersace|code> Subscribe to that spec
<msikma_> But then it won't say that I am doing anything with it.
<msikma_> It'll just be me subscribing to that spec, won't it?
<bersace|code> hey, all of you guys that are in Paris, this night is "Fte de la Musique", There are a lot of free music concert all around Paris
<bersace|code> You should come on !
<kwwii> re
<bersace> kwwii: do you come on for the "Fte de la Musique" Party ?
* bersace is shoting warty for archive
<kwwii> bersace: I hope so...I cannot find Tonio though :-(
<kwwii> I am afraid that they already left
<kwwii> which would really suck
<kwwii> bye all
* kafeine nine inch nails - every day is exactly the same
<adamant1988> hi all.
* kafeine agnostic front - peace
#ubuntu-artwork 2006-06-22
<lapo> hi
<msikma> Awfully quiet in here...
<kwwii> moin
<bersace> hi all
<fschoep> bersace|code: are you around?
<bersace|code> fschoep: i'm coding for SoC
<fschoep> We added a new Wiki page with some Human design principles
<fschoep> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Documentation/Philosophy
<bersace|code> nice !
<bersace|code> right template :)
<fschoep> It is.
<msikma_> Okay... bye.
<cyanescent> hello... anyone looked up the changes on the specs ?
* PseudoPlacebo is away: Redesigning
#ubuntu-artwork 2006-06-23
<lapo> hi
<pooya> hi, do you knwo of a human theme for thunderbird?
<Who_> wow, we're up to 14 of us in here now :)
<andreasn> hey Who_
<Who_> hey andreasn. I liked the mail to the list on the need to get icons to blend :)
<andreasn> yeah, well, I do my best
<Who_> Do you know if it is possible to get QT/GTK to launch with a different icon or widget theme depending on which desktop environment they are running in
<andreasn> not that I know of
<Who_> Shame.
<andreasn> what kind of scenario are you thinking about?
<andreasn> err...of
<Who_> well, for example, if Amarok is started under Gnome it uses a QT theme and KDE Icon theme that resemble a gnomeone (like QTCurve) but if Amarok is launched under KDE then it uses the current KDE theme
<andreasn> ah
<Who_> and vice versa for GTK apps in KDE
<Who_> it would be a way to allow individuality and have things blend.
<andreasn> I guess it's most likely that you use either ubuntu or kubuntu
<andreasn> so that with the regular kubuntu-install, you would also get a matching gtk-theme
<andreasn> and vice-versa
<andreasn> I'm not into the details how that would work though
<Who_> Perhaps, though I would be interested to see some data to back this up - I bet many KDE users use Firefox and perhaps Evolution.
<Who_> ohh, sorry - I see what you were sayiing - we don't need to provide a way of seeing which one they are using - just go by what they have installed?
<andreasn> well, I guess that if you switch between the enviorments it would be good to make it switch
<andreasn> but most people will only use either of them
<andreasn> so I think that would be a sane first step
<Who_> yea - but I think switching is a lot less common than people 'borrowing' apps
<andreasn> yes, that is what I mean
<Who_> :)
<andreasn> sorry, it's a bit late here
<andreasn> :)
<Who_> and here!
<Who_> Where are you?
<andreasn> sweden
<Who_> An hour 'more hardcore' than me then
<andreasn> where are you located then?
<Who_> UK
<andreasn> I see
<andreasn> will you come to guadec?
<Who_> Fraid I don't have the cash or the time off work :(
<andreasn> too bad
<Who_> Are you going?
<Who_> yea - maybe next year when I'm a student so I get long holidays :)
<andreasn> I know there were a bunch of other uk-dudes coming, so I though you might be among them
<Who_> oh, UK-Ubuntu people?
<Who_> just having a brief look around with google there isn't a good surefire way to detect whether kde or Gnome is running - especially if people are mixing and matching
<Who_> Correction: I can't immediately see any good, surefire way
<andreasn> uk-gnome people rather
<andreasn> well, that is what we have the programmers for
<andreasn> :)
<Who_> I was looking on some of the development mailing list archives (as I aspire to join the rank of 'the programmers' one day when I don't code all day anyway!)
<Who_> but right now I have to go to bed :)
<Who_> bye
<meheren> wow it's quiet here...
<Madpilot> hmm
<meheren> hmm... what?
<Madpilot> hmm, it's quiet, and hmm, I need a drink ;)
<meheren> lol im 2 young to drink...
<meheren> (15)
<kwwii> moin
<lapo> hi
<msikma> Now that's bizarre. I didn't know that the MSN Spaces logo was so similar to the Ubuntu circle of friends. http://spaces.msn.com/
<msikma> Maybe they stole it.
<msikma> Even has the exact same rotation. :)
<fschoep> bersace: you there yet?
<msikma> Quiet mail day.
<fschoep> bersace
<fschoep> how is everyone?  troy here on franks keyboard
<fschoep> hrm... i wonder where i went.  link dead.
<fschoep> heyas newz
<fschoep> troy here on franks keyboard
<newz2000> howdy
<newz2000> How's the meeting?
<fschoep> wrapping up
<fschoep> went pretty well
<fschoep> plenty of good stuff decided
<newz2000> Did it feel productive?
<fschoep> good direction
<newz2000> Cool
<fschoep> hell yah
<jsgotangco> =)
<fschoep> i am pretty sure the creative folks will really appreciate distinct direction
<newz2000> Yeah
<fschoep> (its troy here, not frank)
<fschoep> the whole spec process is clearer now too... having seen how it works from the inside
<newz2000> Yeah, i talked to Jane a few weeks ago and told her that I was just itching to have good organization on the team.
<fschoep> we as a creative lot need to embrace it
<newz2000> I really love order
<fschoep> well you got it.  it is very good.
<fschoep> if you peruse the wiki, you can see most of the work frank has been pounding away on the keyboard
<newz2000> I'm really glad you're putting so much effort into getting things together. I think you've done an excellent job
<fschoep> thanks.  ubuntu deserves it.
<newz2000> Better even than I was hoping for
<fschoep> now if everyone will support the whole effort, we will _really_ set an example for the open source community
<fschoep> again though, this is a trial period... everyone really needs to deliver
<newz2000> I think once people see the power of a well-oiled machine they will definately be onboard.
<fschoep> franks back, troy out.  this is now frankie.
<newz2000> BRB
<bersace> fschoep: ping
<bersace> fschoep: i'm busy
<fschoep> oh, can you talk for a minute?
<bersace> fschoep: yep
<fschoep> he's gone for a second in a meeting bersace
<fschoep> it's troy here covering his keys
<bersace> so fschoep is troy ?
<fschoep> he will be back, i think he wishes to speak with you regarding your wiki strcuture
<fschoep> for now yes.
<fschoep> me troy
<bersace> hihi :)
<bersace> you should buy a laptop :P
<fschoep> howdy good to see you
<fschoep> yah laf.
<bersace> so what you want ?
<fschoep> well if i didn't sink a gabillion dollars into my desktop... laf
<fschoep> uh i think he just wanted to keep you updated
<fschoep> with some of the wiki stuff
<fschoep> and needs
<fschoep> so that you are in the loop
<fschoep> i think he also wants to ask you a question about the whole submission area etc.
<fschoep> but i know not for certain
<fschoep> i know there have been quite a few critical documents added to the wiki, so it is important the people don't mess up the structure too much
<bersace> i saw an anti-contribution in the wiki, someone revert back a changes i made : Redirect ArtworkTeam to Artwork :(
<fschoep> well you were on it and fixed it...
<fschoep> just let the mailing list know that you
<bersace> luckly
<fschoep> have it under control
<fschoep> what are your plans for artworkteam now?
<fschoep> you plan on moving the pages to direct redirect?
<fschoep> or ???
<fschoep> and we need to cull those legacy pages as they messify the nice clean structure.
<fschoep> also, the original page has palettes that someone wanted for inkscape, as inkscape accepts gimp palettes and frank has one there already.
<fschoep> you still there?
<fschoep> bersace: also, tasks is now redundant as we have launchpad specs
<fschoep> and the agenda too is obsolete.
<fschoep> there are a few links that need obsoleting.
<bersace> re
<fschoep> and a few pages that need updating as they are old
<fschoep> and have some inaccurate data (mostly legacy pages)
<bersace> ok
<fschoep> what is your plan regarding those legacy pages?
<bersace> keep saying anything, i'll still be able to read id after :)
<fschoep> laf
<fschoep> where the hell is frank
<bersace> for now, i'm busy for flegita and scouting
<fschoep> he went out for a meeting.
<fschoep> yah
<bersace> but i will continue the work
* fschoep knows
<fschoep> this is a future thing
<fschoep> hopefully nearer... i can lend a hand when i return home
<bersace> and klepas will continues as he finish his exams
<fschoep> indeed
<fschoep> all should be very well and very up to speed
<fschoep> which is about time
<fschoep> oh i forgot to mention, we did some pretty nifty experimenting with xcursorgen
<fschoep> found out some very interesting things
<bersace> I would like to move Feedback, evaluation, Licensing in Incoming or anything else
<bersace> nice
* bersace go shopping
<fschoep> yah i would try to sort out the legacy pages, and place a large note that
<fschoep> they are out of date
<fschoep> until they are updated
<fschoep> and some of the pages need proffing
<fschoep> proofing even
<fschoep> bad grammar (wanna etc) need spelling check
<fschoep> but that is minor
<fschoep> perhaps a few folks can read the wiki and forward the edits to you
<fschoep> anyways, i'm out
<fschoep> this will be frank again
<newz2000> Do you guys know of a thin sans-serif chisseled font like impact that looks good at very small point sizes?
<fschoep> Are you using it for print or screen?
<newz2000> screen :-(
<fschoep> So basically you need a pixel font that matches?
<newz2000> I don't need a match, I just need something that's very vertical
<newz2000> I'm recreating a graphic
<newz2000> And I have a very narrow width
<newz2000> impact is the closest I found yet
<fschoep> OK, do you want to pay for the font?
<newz2000> No, I don't think they want to pay for it.
<fschoep> OK, that kind o flimits the options. Did you try WhatTheFont yet on it?
<newz2000> no, haven't heard of it
<fschoep> It lets you identify the font used in a graphics file.
<newz2000> really? Gotta try that
<fschoep> http://www.myfonts.com/WhatTheFont/
<fschoep> You upload an image, specify an image region and it will try to match the font with it.
<fschoep> Then you can get pretty close matches, then try to get free variants of the font family used.
<newz2000> Cool. I'm doing it now. Thanks for the advice, that's defintely worth a bookmark
<fschoep> No problem, I hope it helps you out.
<weidel> oi! silent in here, eh
<fschoep> not exactly
<fschoep> some are around, but busy
<fschoep> greetings weidel... i don't recognize you
<fschoep> my usual nick is troy, but i am typing from frank schoep's keyboard at the moment
<weidel> Hi there, no I don't suppose you would seeing as I joined the team yesterday :)
<fschoep> great
<weidel> Aye, presentation and such are in the mailing lis
<fschoep> what is your background?
<weidel> ~list
<fschoep> lovely
<fschoep> i would have probably known, but i haven't been able to check my email
<fschoep> as i am away from home
<weidel> Ye don't have webmail?
<weidel> how very 90's of you. ;)
<fschoep> well yes, but my home computer drains it every five minutes :)
<weidel> ah hehe
<newz2000> I thought it was funny that you were still logged in for the first part of the conf
<fschoep> well, i was but apparently i left the channel
<fschoep> which is funny
<weidel> The short and sweet version; runs a design/media-company on spare time, worked in advertising agencies as graphics/layout, been IT-consultant and now I've left it all for studying :)
<newz2000> Yeah
<fschoep> because i thought i was on reconnect
<fschoep> but apparently, i wasn't.
<fschoep> has there been much mail to the mailing list?
<newz2000> no, weidel announced his presense
<fschoep> i imagine i will be spending a good bit of time playing catchup
<fschoep> that's great
<weidel> Well, I joined last night, and I have like 15 mails or such
<newz2000> Yeah, but most are specs
<weidel> mostly what seems like automated spec-updates or such
<weidel> right
<fschoep> spec updates are expected
<fschoep> we did a little housecleaning
<fschoep> changed some statuses, etc
<weidel> I'm still a virgin in the opensource-business, so I'll be asking lots of stupid questions. Just a warning.
<newz2000> Nothing too pressing i tlooks (mailing list traffic)
<fschoep> weidel:  don't worry, we need more professional people as well
<newz2000> Niel Drummond made a good post in response to weidel's post. It's a good overview of how to help out with the team and definately suitable for wiki FAQ material
<fschoep> weidel:  the whole goal was to implement a structure that professionals/ nonprofessionals can contribute immediately and effectively (which is darn tricky)
<weidel> Aye, it was a good mail. Spent an hour just reading up on the links
<fschoep> there is a lot of positive motion
<fschoep> hopefully it will snowball as ubuntu has itself.
<newz2000> I can't wait to see what happens when you all get back
<weidel> As a complete newbie, I believe I might have some valuable insights in that process.
<fschoep> ultimately, we need input.
<fschoep> weidel:  if you read taht wiki, you can see a breakdown
<weidel> ie. how it all seems to me
<fschoep> weidel:  again, heavy flux... but it will be far clearer in a few days.
<fschoep> ok... off... this is frank again now.
<weidel> You seem to have all the necessary communication systems in order, anyway
<newz2000> We're getting there
<weidel> But it still seems a bit..fragmented
<newz2000> you should have seen it two weeks ago. There's has been phenominal improvement
<weidel> Good thing I didn't join earlier then eh ;)
<newz2000> Before we were just a bunch of people who liked art, and we didn't really make a huge commitment towards dapper. The goal is to get organized and work as a team on the critical design components so that we can be signficant for edgy.
<weidel> Where did the original art in breezy/dapper etc come from?
<newz2000> contract work
<weidel> really?
<newz2000> There will likely continue to be some of that too. At least in edgy.
<newz2000> The art team is pretty new
<newz2000> And one immediate goal is to organize our selves, which is why a few people are in Paris at the conf right now.
<weidel> contract work as in paid professionals, or contract work as in telling some talented guys to do it?
<newz2000> I don't know the full details
<weidel> Organization is key, to everything and anything
<newz2000> Yes
<newz2000> Plus, we're going to narrow our focus a little I think.
<weidel> And, over-organization is death to everything and anything. It's a fine line.
<newz2000> That will be a challenge I suspect
<newz2000> Getting the balance correct
<weidel> Aye, I've been reviewing the wiki and the timeline presented up to edgy release, and it's a tight schedule
<newz2000> Yes. We're all kind of holding our breath for the paris show to end so we can see what has come out of it.
<weidel> as you say, focus is essential. 10 people working on 10 projects won't work.
<weidel> what is this paris business about?
<newz2000> Yeah, well if we were 10 working on 10 it would have been better. I think it was more like 40 working on 90.
<weidel> lol..
<newz2000> Well, since Canonical/ubuntu employees work all over the world they meet up along with major community contributors after each release to plan what's next.
<newz2000> Dapper came out last month so now they're meeting in Paris to hammer out what's going on next.
<weidel> ah, its a strategy meeting then
<newz2000> yeah
<newz2000> Not really a conference I guess.
<weidel> when is it over?
<newz2000> Today
<weidel> aha nice
<newz2000> I've not been to one, but plan to go to the next. I don't know what they do for real there.
<weidel> is it open-invitation?
<newz2000> I can see that there is a lot of energy and in the last four days have seen big changes.
<newz2000> Yes, but it's a "get work done' type of meeting.
<weidel> right
<weidel> btw, who are you then? :)
<newz2000> My name is Matt Nuzum
<newz2000> I'm in Iowa, USA.
<newz2000> I'm a professional web designer, usability specialist.
<newz2000> Not really an artist though
<newz2000> But I'm good at faking it.
<weidel> Perhaps a bit like me, designing the overall concepts and feel/interaction?
<newz2000> Yes.
<newz2000> I usually work with an artist who creates teh concept and then I make it realistic and functional.
<weidel> I'm not really into the actual artistic bits, even though I suppose I can hold my own, but rather likes to focus on the grand picture and usability funtions.
<newz2000> Where are you located?
* bersace is back
<weidel> Sweden, land of pirates. A'hoy matey
<newz2000> :-D
<weidel> I think PirateBay is what sweden will be associated with, together with blonde women, from now on.
<newz2000> Maybe. It's been interesting reading about that lately.
<newz2000> Its hard to fathom, because I can't imagine that type of mentality gaining significant mind-share here
<weidel> Yeah, that bust was the best thing that could happen to piratebay/pirates in general, counterproductively enough
<weidel> the media coverage is ridiculous
<weidel> but then again, so is the politics
<weidel> what mentality do you mean?
<newz2000> Here it is assumed that intelectual propery is supposed to be very well protected. FOr example, if you're just standing on a corner and someone takes a picture of you they need your permission to publish it.
<newz2000> If you make a piece of art and publish it, its yours and if people copy it or use it without your permission then you have very clear legal recourse.
<weidel> Well, it's not that much different here. Difference is, you guys have an insane legal system allowing you to sue everyone :)
<newz2000> yeah, it is a bit insane
<newz2000> I don't get to see it from an international perspective too much, but I suspect that if your only view of it was through the media it might not reflect reality too well.
<newz2000> They tend to exagerate some details
<weidel> And, here we do have some leftover mentalities from being run by leftwings for quite a while, so people are pretty used to the mindset of commonwealth and shared owning
<weidel> Media is never a good information source, ofcourse. I've never been to the US, but I have been to Canada. And I do believe it is a bit out of proportion perhaps, but it is still a standing joke here in europe that someone could sue McDonalds over hot coffee.
<newz2000> yeah, that's a joke here too.
<newz2000> I laugh just thinking about it
<newz2000> we say, "common sense isn't so common anymore."
<weidel> hehe
<weidel> That's the difference. In US the legal systems say to someone like that "Ok, we will investigate and see if the temperature was overly warm and thus prevent future harm to consumers and pay you for your damanges" - in europe it would be "You're a moron. Stop wasting our time and prefferably stop drinking coffee if you can't handle it." Both sides has their ups and downs :)
<newz2000> The outcome from that case is so uncommon that I have to guess there are some detaisl I don't know.
<weidel> Thing is, it can't be hotter than boiling point. And I don't see how it would be that hot even.. It's java, not lava. Anyway, it is strange.
<newz2000> :-D Good one.
<weidel> :)
<weidel> btw, what softwares do you usually use?
<newz2000> For what? For bmp I used Photoshop 6 (too cheap to upgrade) and for vector I use illustrator.
<newz2000> For code/html/css I use eclipse.
<weidel> windowsing still eh
<newz2000> Sometimes.
<weidel> eclipse?
<newz2000> I use crossover office to run photoshop in Ubuntu
<weidel> I'm looking for a dreamweaver replacement, any tips?
<newz2000> no. I've tried and tried but not found anything.
<newz2000> What version do you use?
<weidel> Well as far as I can tell, Photoshop CS2 doesn't work under linux no matter how much you try :(
<newz2000> Yeah, I think you're right
<newz2000> 6 and 7 do though
<weidel> aye, but I'm quite fond of the improvements in later versions :)
<newz2000> Yeah, its hard to go back
<weidel> they are a bit bloated though
<newz2000> I have CS2 on my work laptop and it takes nearly twice as long to load then 6.
<weidel> Aye, but it is pretty much twice as powerful
<newz2000> I don't konw... the only thing I've found I like a lot is the font preview in the drop down list.
<weidel> and the algorithms in the image processing are really, really better
<newz2000> There are little things but for waht I use I haven't seen too big of an improvement
<newz2000> like what?
<weidel> 6 doesn't even have vector support? Or was it 6 that incorporated it? Been too long..
<newz2000> 6 has it
<newz2000> 5.5 brought that I think
<weidel> Ah, that might be the case.
<weidel> re: algorithms, the image quality in most every image processing procedure is way better in the new versions, as well as in the saved files that utilize compression
<newz2000> I know some who still use 4. I think, "come on... you don't even have a history pallete or editable text."
<weidel> 4? geesh
<newz2000> I mostly use photoshop for color correction and I use some of the layer effects.
<weidel> You should really give CS a go for the color correction bits.
<newz2000> no thanks... I might get hooked! :-)
<weidel> it has some quite impressive automated functions for it as well :)
<weidel> hehe
<weidel> I hear there is a fully working demo version on piratebay, haha
<newz2000> Nah... I support programmers by buying the products I feel provide a good value.
<weidel> very true, but that's hard to know unless you've tried the program.
<newz2000> yeah, I really respect code weavers because they provide very accessible trials. Macromedia did too.
<newz2000> gotta go... lunch time.
<weidel> and generally, I am very opposed to the pricing on creative products, from Adobe to 3DS and what-not.
<weidel> lunch? Oh, you're on another continent. Right. :)
<PseudoPlacebo> Be right back.
<newz2000> yeah, I'm on another continent... GMT -5.
<weidel> ping? :)
<lapo> hi
#ubuntu-artwork 2006-06-24
<kwwii> moin
<klepas> moinmoin
<kwwii> hi klepas
* kwwii just returned from Paris
<klepas> i trust you folks had a lovely time?
<kwwii> well, we got a lot done
<kwwii> check out  my blog for the lovely time
<kwwii> hehe, put it this way: it was better than a kick in the face
<klepas> Inkscape 0.44 is out btw dudes
<kwwii> I just installed it (I had 4.4pre3 before that)
<kwwii> erm o.44pre3
<kwwii> some really nice improvements there
<klepas> ouch... nasty kick in the face
<kwwii> yeah, kinda ruined the evening
<klepas> damn
<kwwii> hehe, if inksacpe keeps improving I won't have anything to complain about anymore
<klepas> i shold have known that you were going to meet aaron there :)
<kwwii> ;-)
<klepas> would have asked you to say hi for me ;)
<kwwii> we shared a hotel room
<klepas> yea
<klepas> Aaron is pretty cool
<klepas> met him at LCA '06 in Dunedin, NZ
<kwwii> yepp, but he is the canadian that acts more american than americans :-)
<klepas> lollers
<klepas> naja, mansches mal schon
<klepas> die neuen oxygen ikons sehen richtig geil aus
<kwwii> danke schoen :-)
<kwwii> es gibt noch viel zu tun aber es ist 'ne gute anfang, denke ich
<kwwii> und egal was man sagt, die sehen viel besser aus neben Tango als Crystal
<klepas> ja, denke ich auch
<klepas> mier gefelt aber Tango am meisten momentan :)
<kwwii> :-)
<klepas> Oxygen kommt gleich danach
<klepas> Oxygen ist auch in Inkscape gemacht, ne?
<kwwii> ja, obwohl mehrere sind erstmal mit AI gemacht und dann am ende mit Inkscape verbessert
<kwwii> die svgs sind aber alle inkscape kompatibel und noch die verbesserungen mit inkscape nicht mehr richtig mit AI zu bearbeiten
<klepas> ach man...
<kwwii> s/noch/nach
<klepas> ich habe die letzten drei monate nur einen von meinen zwei processoren benutzt
<klepas> von meinen duo-core...
<kwwii> lol :-)
* klepas hatte nemlich nur gerade den i686 kernel instaliert
<klepas> ich bin ein idiot...
<klepas> jees...
<kwwii> n'ja, sehe es wie ein geschenk
<kwwii> ;-)
<kwwii> jetzt ist es 2x so schnell
<klepas> ich hatte nemlich gedacht warum der difference net so wiel war
<klepas> ganz genau
<klepas> geil
* klepas is glueglich
<klepas> oh, ja. ich bin Deutscher auch
<klepas> lebe aber in Australien, Canberra
<kwwii> und ich bin Ami der in D-Land (Bamberg) wohnt :-)
<klepas> cool
<kwwii> irgendwie dachte ich du kommst aus Skandanavian
<klepas> ach, mus gehen
<klepas> sci-fi nacht
<kwwii> hehe, have fun!
<klepas> komm in so... naja, zwei-drei stunden wieder
<klepas> ne, leider net
<kwwii> bis dann
<klepas> mochte wieder in Europa leben :)
<kwwii> n'ja, bis demnaechst
<klepas> tschuess
<kwwii> ciao
<lapo> hi
<Who_> Hi all
<Who_> I'm looking for an Inkscape guru, anyone?
<kwwii_afk> how can I help?
<kwwii_afk> Who_: what do you need to know?
<Who_> I want to apply perspective to a group
<Who_> I seem to be able to do it to a bunch of nodes - but not to a group
<Who_> I'm using 0.44 (yes, I used autopackage :P)
<Who_> (to a bunch of nodes using the < and > keys)
<kwwii_afk> Who_: yeah, it won't work with a group
<kwwii_afk> at least, if it will, I do not know how to do it
<Who_> shame. Perhaps one to send as a feature reques
<Who_> t
<kwwii_afk> yeah
<Who_> I note Xara has a pretty cool perspective/group-warp tool
<Who_> have you tried CaraLX?
<Who_> *XaraLX
<kwwii_afk> I started to build it today...I gave up to watch the football game :-)
<kwwii_afk> I wish it would export to svg
<Who_> yea, me too
<Who_> but I have a feeling that really goos svg support may take a while
<Who_> I built it a long time ago, but I just use the packages now
<kwwii_afk> I think that they are waiting to make it export SVGs so that they do not compete with inkscape
<Who_> yea - I have loyalty struggles actually, cos XaraLX is really good - but I really like Inkscape and feel loyalty to it :P
<Who_> and the Xara team do seem to be doing the Open Source thing properly...
<kwwii_afk> yes, they really do
<kwwii_afk> I was somewhat amazed at that
<kwwii_afk> at first I thought they would not get it right
<kwwii_afk> back to the game...be back in about an hour
<klepas> moin
<Who_> hi klepas
<klepas> hey
<klepas> inkscape 0.44 is just awesome :)
<kwwii> re
#ubuntu-artwork 2006-06-25
<kwwii> ok, time for bed
<kwwii> night all
<troy_s> woop.
<Madpilot> hi troy_s
<troy_s> greetings mad... not going to stay long as i am jetlagged all to heck
<Madpilot> back from Paris?
<troy_s> indeed.
<Madpilot> good time?
<troy_s> well really just a lot of work
<troy_s> it was nice seeing some of the folks though.
<troy_s> ok, out for shower and rest.  i'll see you soon mad.
<Madpilot> later
* mode/#ubuntu-artwork [+tc]  by ChanServ
* mode/#ubuntu-artwork [-s]  by ChanServ
<troy_s> ping
<troy_s> greetings seveas
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-artwork:troy_s] : test
<troy_s> how strange
<Seveas> magic ;)
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-artwork:troy_s] : test test
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-artwork:troy_s] : wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork -- Check the specifications for Edgy at www.launchpad.net/people/ubuntu-art
<troy_s> well thanks seveas
<troy_s> laf
<Seveas> np, if you need anything IRC related, just poke me
<troy_s> thanks again den
<troy_s> do you have that usplash
<troy_s> appy anywhere?
<Seveas> not yet
<Seveas> have to fix it to work with latest usplash, will also need to backport that version of usplash to dapper
<troy_s> ahh.
<troy_s> your code available?  pretty sure that frank and a few others would like to peek at it.
<troy_s> its a great tool that would work nicely in the toolset for designing a 'look' (more than just a theme)
<Seveas> code will be available as soon as it works with the latest usplash again ;)
<troy_s> great.
<troy_s> i guess i should run a dual boot with the darn edgy current
<troy_s> kenny
<troy_s> how you doing bro?
<kwwii> grilling chicken :p
<kwwii> you made it home ok?
<troy_s> barely
<troy_s> but yes
<troy_s> laf
<troy_s> chicken griller
<kwwii> :-)
* kwwii puts the meat on the grill (bratwurst first)
<Who_> Hi all,
<Who_> Does anyone know what 'class' to apply a style to in a gtlrc to change the settings for applets on the panel? (I.E make the window-list fonts white, for example)
<troy_s> greetings who
<Who_> hiya troy
<Who_> how was Paris?
<troy_s> plenty of effort :)
<Who_> cool, the fun kind?
<troy_s> i guess in a round about way
<Who_> Do you know when the new art-team organisation will be announced?
<troy_s> i hope
<troy_s> that the material will be considered 'in motion' as of now... it will probably be stamped
<troy_s> officially
<troy_s> by mark in the coming days.
<troy_s> there have already been appointments to this end, and when the individuals are comfortable enough,
<troy_s> i am quite sure they will step forwards and announce themselves.
<Who_> does anyone know a way of finding the window class of a window?
<troy_s> in what code style?
<kwwii> Who_: kinda hard to say without looking at the code, some apps make their own class's as well
<Who_> troy_s: not in code - it's for making a gtkrc
<Who_> kwwii: So do you have any idea about the gnome window list, or do I actually need to study the code?
<troy_s> doc it when you find it who
<kwwii> Who_: that should be somewhat easier to find out...but I have no idea where that info would be online
<Who_> I get the feeling someone _must_ have wanted to turn the font on the window list white but keep other button fonts black before
<Who_> troy_s: I will If I get there!
<kwwii> actually, I know a lot more about kde than gnome :-)
<Who_> kwwii: I had a 'KDE moment' today and decided to to go with a more KDEesque panel setup in Gnome
<kwwii> :p
<kwwii> so you added 100 menu items and 15 icons?
<kwwii> see, I can laugh at myself :-)
<kwwii> I actually use a gnome like panel setup
<troy_s> Eek... you had better flog yourself publically, post to the relevant newsgroups, and subject the matter for a vote.
<kwwii> hehe, yeah...or blog about it - that is pretty much the same
<troy_s> Greetz Neil.
<troy_s> Niel rather.
<cyanescent> heya
<kwwii> hi cyanescent
<cyanescent> what's the chat about ?
<cyanescent> hiya kwwii
<cyanescent> umm... why did you mention we need 4 specs troy_x ?
<Who_> well, I'm trying to work out which class i need to apply a style to in a gtkrv so I can theme things on the panel separately (I have a dark panel BG and I want white fg - bu only on the panel)
<cyanescent> troy_s rather
<troy_s> The four specs are there.
<troy_s> Basically, the system flows like this currently at the conferences.
<cyanescent> which are...
<kwwii> Who_: I am sure that there is a development channel or mailing list where you could find this out
<troy_s> 1) Specs all go into the slew of braindumps... then higher powers examine those at a given point (namely the beginning of a cycle)
<kwwii> Who_: but artists are not normally known for their coding :p
<troy_s> 2) Those specs that are chosen, are put forwards, and development begins (if you look to the edgy such, you will see the pattern)
<troy_s> 3) Because the art community was flailing and not using launchpad previously, there were none -- at least directly and easily findable.
<Who_> kwwii: yea, thanks :). #gnome-art is pretty quiet.  I must confess I'm not really _that_ activbely trying to find this out right now - it's kind of a background thing while I work
<troy_s> 4) sabdfl 'blessed' with the papal blessing four of the specs.  
<cyanescent> ok that makes sense... what do we do with all the existing specs then ?
<troy_s> they stay
<cyanescent> but there is way more than 4
<troy_s> bascially you need to have a good selection of WELL fleshed out specs (with upgrade paths, tech considerations (with the relevant folks) etc) BEFORE a cycle starts
<troy_s> so that you walk into the cycle with plenty to scour through.
<troy_s> that is gradually happening... so we are on course.
<cyanescent> right right
<cyanescent> so these specs are rather for the following dev cycle
<cyanescent> k... which ones are the blessed 4 ?
<troy_s> Edgy will do two things primarily... 1) Attempt to get professional quality output of those four specs.  2) Get everyone used to the scheduling breakdown.  3) Find out the quality level of existing art contributors.  4) Etc... (Basically see what we have, what we need, etc)
<cyanescent> oh the pending approval ones
<troy_s> Indeed... there should be four of those pending approval.  
<cyanescent> yep, makes sense
<cyanescent> it's not a hard target to hit with some 50 odd members though
* kafeine faith no more - stripsearch
<troy_s> The wiki was a no brainer, so it has been set to started.
<troy_s> cyanescent, well one would hope that...
<cyanescent> who is doing the specs on those 4 then -- I suppose you've gone through it pretty thoroughly
<troy_s> cyanescent, but again, judging from history and such it is questionable.  Further still, we need to figure out exactly what the 'members' are capable of.  Thus far we have only a 16 colour USplash sampling at 640x400 to judge from.
<cyanescent> that.... as far as I gather is not going to change in the near future
<troy_s> cyanescent, The AiCs primarily, but only in line with what sabdfl hopes to accomplish.
<cyanescent> has the hierarchy been decided... ?
<troy_s> Again, this process will gain much development momentum the further everyone in the K/Ubuntu community can demonstrate a clean track record, with deliverables.
<troy_s> cyanescent, yes.  There have been two appointments that I am aware of.  The ArtCouncil still needs to be decided by the CommunityCouncil -- and that will require resumes
<troy_s> As they will yield greater power than the rest.
<Who_> tory_s: am I right in thinking there are no specs relating to themes among those pending ones?
<cyanescent> Has the community council been decided ?
<troy_s> Who_, they are all there, have a peep.  But 'themes' is pretty Gnome / KDE specific.  I suggest that people work towards homogenizing the language.
<troy_s> cyanescent, community council exists... launchpad has everything listed there.
<cyanescent> right.
<troy_s> There are four members of the community council.
<cyanescent> oh yes mark mentioned them
<Who_> troy_s: I was looking, just ching I'd found the right ones
<troy_s> Who_, the pending approvals are the direction for Edgy.
<Who_> great :)
<troy_s> Who_, better to start with baby steps and accomplish them, than massive cloghoppers and fail miserably.
<Who_> indeed. As I've said before, we need to prove ourselves
<troy_s> There is a very good process in place to allow for a great 'cross-pollenation' of ideas right through to execution.
<troy_s> Who_, glad you agree.
<cyanescent> well... I'm seeing the wiki specs being modified occassionally, 
<troy_s> As kwwii has stated before, this sort of organization in the open source art community hasn't really been attempted before, so there is much to lay into place.
<cyanescent> so I assume people are interested in changing the direction of things
<cyanescent> I sometimes wonder how suse and redhat do it
<troy_s> cyanescent, well if you mean to actually get a community together and try to build a structure, yes.
<cyanescent> they obviously also employ outside artists to do things sometimes
<troy_s> cyanescent, kwwii can tell you how suse does it -- he worked there as the artist for some time.
<Who_> cyanascent: I think Suse and Refhat employ a feew people to do it
<troy_s> cyanescent, indeed.
<troy_s> ACH MY TEA
<cyanescent> heh
<Who_> doesn't jimmac do a lot of Novel and Suse's art? Linspire seems to be rather everaldo influenced
<cyanescent> I guess also the problem has been the lack of artists working on linux.... that has changed now
<troy_s> Who_, I recall kwwii saying that Linspire hired everaldo, but I might be mistaken.
<cyanescent> troy_s you mentioned a write-up on doing the specs.... 
<kwwii> yes, he works for them
<kwwii> and he has his own studio as well
<cyanescent> there already seems to be a template which is fairly self explanatory
<troy_s> cyanescent, yes, we definitely need a howto to prevent further dumping.  
<cyanescent> how much do you want me to expand on the wiki template ?
<troy_s> cyanescent, yes.  That also means that we must outline what an effective spec looks like -- at least taking into account technology path, implementation, etc.
<Who_> where does tigert work?
<kwwii> nokia
<troy_s> cyanescent, I would leave the template, but a howto would help very well.
<cyanescent> k... will do
<kwwii> tigert and myself left novell at the same time :-)
<Who_> kwwii - on Maemo?
<Who_> kwwii: were you part of Ximian?
<kwwii> Who_: nope, I worked for SuSE for 7 years
<kwwii> Who_: so I was working with them
<Who_> kwwii: ahh, where do you work now?
* kwwii actually helped define tango before it was openly announced
<cyanescent> kwwii that sounds plush... why leave ?
<kwwii> Who_: Canonical :-)
<cyanescent> ah... that explains it ;-)
<troy_s> as i have stated, we have a good selection of people here with good 'linux industry' experience.
<Who_> oh, I didn't know!
<kwwii> definitely :-)
<troy_s> we can do better, and we are trying.
<kwwii> if we cannot make this work, nobody can
<Who_> indeed, Cimi seems interested too - who seems to do a lot of themeing
<cyanescent> did anyone get to have a chat with the Xubuntu / Kubuntu guys ?
<troy_s> cyanescent, yes.  
<troy_s> you are standing with one now -- kwwii
<Who_> kwwii: do you think it is actually easier to do this kind of thing if it just left to a few full time people?
<cyanescent> what are they saying --- they didn't seem too co-operative about our renewed vigour ;-)
<troy_s> jani is largely responsible for xubuntu, and he was open to many thoughts.  josef mak i believe was his primary art fellow.
<kwwii> Who_: no, I do not think that a couple of people can do this...but that is not what is happening
<troy_s> actually, they were very accomodating... oliver is a good part of the engine behind the edubuntu movement.
<Who_> kwwii: What happens somewhere like Suse then, many hands?
<kwwii> the idea is to have people to coordinate things, so that we do not spend time fighting each other on the lists, etc.
<cyanescent> cool.. but there won't be much cross-development in terms of art 
<kwwii> SuSE does not exist anymore
<troy_s> Cross development?  Explain?
<kwwii> only openSuSE
<Who_> kwwii: I was meaning "how did things work when you wroked at SUSE"  - sorry :P
<Who_> or worked at SUSE, even
<troy_s> As per sabdfl -- he very much wants Ubuntu (K to be determined) to feel professional and ship with exactly a finite number of 'looks'.   That means culling the bulk of the 'themes' currently in there.
<kwwii> Who_: well, I worked along for 7 years, so I made all the decisions and all the artwork
<cyanescent> well there was all sorts of talk on sharing backgrounds, but changing the colour... that could go with all the login / GDM stuff we're planning to do
<kwwii> and I think it reflects in the lesser quality of the work
<troy_s> That will take a migration path though, as it is techologically difficult to implement.  And yes, Daniel Holbach has been sort of assigned to think about this.
<kwwii> since I made it, I can say that :-)
<troy_s> cyanescent, Colours are off the table. 
<troy_s> cyanescent, everything that can change is at launchpad.
<Who_> I have only tried openSUSE
<cyanescent> heh... but someone will need to decide on the outdoor colour palette... or is that already decided ?
<troy_s> Outdoors is another 'look' that mark would like to see.
<Who_> troy_s: I wrote top the list saying that I'd like to see QT apps themed with a GTK-like theme if Kubuntu was not being used - do you have an opinions on that?
<troy_s> And that is probably going to get a spec soon.
<kwwii> the idea here is not to limit anyone, but to take the burden of organization off the artists shoulders as well as to coordinate the work so that we get the best possible artwork with the least possible problems
<cyanescent> ok... but since it's not one of the main specs, I suppose it won't get the most attention
<troy_s> Who_, personally, from an aesthetic standpoint, I don't care about technology.  Just about how it feels in the end.
<troy_s> cyanescent, it will get very good attention.  But in a formal and procedural fashion outlined by this dev cycle's process.
<troy_s> cyanescent, hopefully by the time Edgy+1 comes, we have done enough work on the spec to get it set to a priority for that release.
<Who_> troy_s: I agree - but I think at the moment any QT app under Gnome stands out like an amputated thumb. Is that likely to be fixed this cycle?
<cyanescent> troy_s: make sense
<troy_s> Who_, yes, you are correct.  Probably not this cycle.  
<cyanescent> Who_: as far as I've read on the kubuntu ML they are saying the same about GTK apps
<Who_> troy_s: even if someone where to contribute something that did it, and worked?
<troy_s> The ultimate point is that sabdfl is the powerhouse behind this.  He has assembled his team that has driven Ubuntu to where it is today.  We must prove ourselves before anyone is going to look at us seriously.
<Who_> cyanascent: are they saying that they want to make them look good this cycle? (I don't read any kubuntu lists :S)
<troy_s> Who_, nope -- if it works, we have a people in place who can make sure it gets proper attention.
<cyanescent> Who_: also, I don't think it's a very easy thing to do either..
<cyanescent> Who: ;-))
<kwwii> the thing is this: you either make kde fit to gnome or gnome fit to kde...both are not acceptable solutions for either side
<troy_s> Who_, but what seems like a 'no brainer' for some, has deep rooted technological rammifications that aren't apparent without serious investigation.
<troy_s> You should have seen how the "Unify Tab" sessions went ;)
<Who_> cyanascent: the level I am thinking of doing it on at the moment is just by setting the theme in KDE when ubuntu-desktop is installed to one of the themes that looks good with Human GTK 
<Who_> troy_s: "Unify Tab" ?
<troy_s> Who_, and as kwwii has made clear... we need to avoid the Gnome / KDE Jihad.
<troy_s> Who_, sabdfl wanted to unify how tabs worked across the board
<troy_s> and it was, well... extremely complicated -- far more so than how logical the idea appeared at first glance.
<Who_> troy_s: I totally agree - all I want to do is change what KDE apps look like _when they are not used under KDE_
<kwwii> Who_: how would you do that with the current infrastructure?
<cyanescent> Who_ you'd have to create separate packages... and then what _if_ you suddenly decided to use KDE
<cyanescent> it would look like crap
<troy_s> Who_, it starts to get ugly _very_ quick.  
<kwwii> seperate packages cannot be made
<troy_s> Who_, start with baby steps.  Build on the work of others.  We move forwards.
<Who_> kwwii: I don't know enough about how to change the theme in KDE (but you might!) - but when ubuntu-desktop is installed we can install a chosen QT theme, which will be used untill Kubuntu-desktop is installed, where the Kubuntu look will take over
<troy_s> Who_, spec it.  Build a case.
<troy_s> Who_, it will take research.
<kwwii> Who_: when gnome apps run in KDE, they get the KDE widget style...but changing the icons is something that is not possible now
<cyanescent> kwwii: what is your nick short for ;-)
<Who_> troy_s: you seemed not to think it was worth it a minute ago?
<troy_s> Who_, I think every thought has merits, so perhaps you misread me.
<kwwii> cyanescent: my name (but everyone thinks it is k world war II)
<troy_s> Who_, but I was merely highlighting that it gets darn complicated darn quick.
<kwwii> my name is Kenneth Wesley Wimer II
<cyanescent> thought so
<cyanescent> haha
<troy_s> Who_, so it will require a crapload of thinking.
<troy_s> k-ww] [
<troy_s> laf.
<cyanescent> the 2nd ... very pompous
<cyanescent> well we can all crown you someday 
<kwwii> tell my parents that
<troy_s> anyone running gimp 239?
<Who_> kwwii: in the simple implementation I have in mind we just ship a set of icons for KDE that blends with Gnome (say, Tango, for example) with ubuntu-desktop and replace it by the Kubuntu one when Kubuntu desktop is installed - have I misunderstood, or is that possible?
<troy_s> Who_, do you mean Ubuntu or Gnome?  Kubuntu or KDE?
<kwwii> Who_: no it is not possible - the packages are the same
<cyanescent> Gimp has moved a major rev ?
<kwwii> it would mean maintaining two sets of every kde package
<troy_s> Not a stable, but 239 was the latest I saw.
<troy_s> It has quite a few more features.
<kwwii> and there is only one person doing all the kde packaging
<cyanescent> they are a bit slow sometimes 
<Who_> kwwii: which packes? can we not ship a 'human'kde' icon theme that is set as the icon theme in KDE with ubuntu-desktop' and then also ship 'kubuntu-icon-theme' with Kubuntu-desktop and set that as default?
<troy_s> Who_, eek!
<cyanescent> quite like all the vector drawing apps that are popping up
<troy_s> cyanescent, indeed.
<cyanescent> that wasn't there 1 year ago
<troy_s> Who_, any gnome app running under KDE should look like Kubuntu, and vice versa.
<troy_s> But we can't attempt to cross borders with 'look'
<kwwii> Who_: nope, the packages themselves would need to reflect that change
<Who_> troy_s: yea. agreed. looks like ab igger task than we can do now :(
<kwwii> lots of apps have their own icon dirs
<cyanescent> Who_: I don't think you can separate the icons from the actual package... it's not like a plugin
<Who_> kwwii: separate icon dirs! ouch!
<kwwii> so you would have to change all those icons per hand, and then there would need to be two sets of packages
<kwwii> Who_: all desktops have apps that do it that way
<troy_s> Who_, still worth brainstorming though -- which is why I suggest you offer up a full fledged spec.  If ultimately it cannot be done, then at least when someone pops up and says 'lets do this' we can say why not and point them to the spec thread.
<Who_> yea, I understand now - I thought that all apps would just use icons set in the control centre
<Who_> okay - I'll tackle a spec in the next week :)
<cyanescent> well... it's worth looking into it for Firefox and thunderbird, which seems to be what most people use
<Who_> and try and be clearer :)
<troy_s> Who_, the bottom line is that ultimately it is a great idea.  Implementing isn't simple and might require further tech development.  To this end, speccing it is a clear way to get it on the table and begin the discussion.
<kwwii> firefox and thunderbird are desktop indepent basically
<Who_> yea, I feel sorry for the Kubuntu-team because practically everynody uses Firefox and it isn't native
<troy_s> cyanescent, yes... 
<kwwii> it would be easy to set a wrapper script for apps like that, to change the theme depending on which desktop is running
<troy_s> kwwii, indy, but Frank has made steps towards getting the firefox set in line with Human look.
<kwwii> cool
<Who_> yea, sounds good
<cyanescent> oh yeh... they use an idea borrowed from windows ... a browserfilemanager
<cyanescent> ugh
<kwwii> since those apps are not part of kubuntu anyway, it should not be a problem
<troy_s> kwwii, the reasoning being it is a 'default' app in Ubuntu.  I think ultimately it would be good to get all 'default' apps on the same page by default install.
<kwwii> and the tango icons will fit better with the future kde icons (oxygen) than the current ones
<Who_> I'm off to fix the Windows PC of a housemate :S. It is seriously fscked
<troy_s> kwwii, and same same for Kubuntu.
<troy_s> kwwii, albeit with a different set of apps and look.
<kwwii> troy_s: totally true...something to work towards for the future
<troy_s> kwwii, exactly.
<Who_> so she is considering putting Ubuntu on as she has now Windows CD. Yey :). See you all later
<kwwii> Who_: have fun!
<troy_s> cya who
<cyanescent> cya Who_
<kwwii> I feel as if the artwork team has already taken major steps toward fixing the problems it had :-) nice to see
<cyanescent> I thought firefox was gtk gnome
<troy_s> Yes, and the more everyone stands in unison trying to further the cause, the further we get.  Basically I think we all need to tighten up the K / Ubuntu look from where it is now before starting a massive 'kick down the walls and reno' approach.
<troy_s> kwwii, of course, we have Human Look for Ubuntu and ??? Look for Kubuntu?
<troy_s> kwwii, so you had better start typing :)
<cyanescent> though... I feel a lot of work is deviating from filling the icon "holes" that we still have due to the outsourced team
<troy_s> cyanescent, indeed.  Give it time.  Once it is demonstrated that there is a clear direction with a process in place, many will emerge from the chaos.
<troy_s> cyanescent, for example, Daniel has a pretty interesting listing for the icons, and it is plausible that the community could help to fill those holes.  That said, there isn't a spec with relevant links yet.
<cyanescent> You also mentioned a Design Document
<cyanescent> who is writing that up ?
<troy_s> cyanescent, it is almost complete.  All of the documents are at the wiki.
<troy_s> Including a scheduling breakdown for edgy.
<troy_s> etc.
<cyanescent> I must be missing the action
<troy_s> nope...
<troy_s> most of us just got home :)
<troy_s> i barely had time to read through the 90 art related mails and post what i know.
<kwwii> hehe, this football match is finall getting good
<troy_s> Relevant spec 1:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Specs/ArtworkProcess
<kwwii> they are fighting
<kwwii> :-)
<troy_s> wow... sounds like hockey
<kwwii> yeah, that is why it is getting good :-)
<troy_s> Relevant spec 2:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Specs/EdgyArtworkPlan
<troy_s> 2 is the breakdown
<troy_s> 1 is the process.
<cyanescent> k thanks
<cyanescent> yep I've read #1 b4
<kwwii> troy_s: the problem with naming the kubuntu theme is that canonical is not paying any artist to make kubuntu specific artwork
<kwwii> so we really only have crystal atm
<cyanescent> did you work out a license for artist submissions ?
<kwwii> and we will only be able to use what kde includes
<kwwii> cyanescent: we are looking at the CCSA atm
<kwwii> but IANAL
<kwwii> so we need to get a proffesional to tell us what is really best
<cyanescent> so a non stallman-endorsed one ? ;-)
<troy_s> kwwii:  they are paying at least one that I know of.  and of course, if they are on the same page, should be able to pool some of the talent and steer it correctly.  You would need to speak with them.
<cyanescent> it doesn't bother me at all at any rate
<troy_s> and "Crystal" isn't really a look that is distinct for Kubuntu is it?  Is it more KDE centric?
<kwwii> troy_s: I am the only one they are paying
<kwwii> yepp
<troy_s> kwwii:  ;).  It was a joke.
<troy_s> kwwii:  But you should still speak with that person.
<kwwii> :p
<kwwii> I am already talking to myself all the time :-)
<troy_s> kwwii:  And figure out if they can get a 'look' description out the door in quick time.
<troy_s> cyanescent, the license issue is massive.  What we tried to figure out was what license works
<kwwii> troy_s: yepp, that is the next thing on the todo list
<troy_s> _Best_ for K/Ubuntu 
<kwwii> can't do any real work before we have that in place
<troy_s> in terms of rapid integration with existing licensing issues.
<troy_s> kwwii, very good point :)
<troy_s> kwwii, if you can get the K side up to speed with the U side, then we have a greater chance of sharing resources.
<kwwii> defintely
<kwwii> but for now, I am going back to the game :-)
<troy_s> kwwii, Frank just avoided putting the K word in to avoid too much forced 'agreement'
<troy_s> cyanescent, make sense?
<kwwii> watching wimpy little soccer guys beat each other up is fun
<kwwii> yeah, good point
<cyanescent> troy_s making sensikal
<troy_s> kwwii, "My leg my leg my leg, <yellow card> actually I'm fine"
<troy_s> cyanescent, good.  I need to check how my words look to others from time to time to evaluate if my brain is working correctly.
<cyanescent> hehehe... I'm actually near berlin... fussball uberall
<troy_s> foosball
<troy_s> woot!
<cyanescent> I nearly got caught out by this new DRM thing -- downloaded the new Sky offer of watching all their films online, but they make you install a DRM app that sorts through your films for illegal pr0n
<cyanescent> ugh... what a scare
<cyanescent> not doing that again
<cyanescent> k I need to shoot
<cyanescent> nice chat
<viper550> Hello
<troy_s> heyas viper
<troy_s>  what are you up to?
<viper550> I think I found what should be the Edgy metacity theme
<viper550> http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php?content=41246
<viper550> That theme is sweet!
<troy_s> If you check the specifications, you can see that there are only four specifications listed as targets.
<viper550> What are they?
<troy_s> You can easily spec up new considerations etc, and see if it gathers momentum.
<troy_s> Familiarize yourself with launchpad.
<troy_s> They are all listed there, and collected under the ubuntu-art team.
<troy_s> Edgy is more about demonstration of principles, than massive change.
<viper550> How do I get to the artwork specifications?
<troy_s> I think et and pas have gone to great lengths to try and begin explaining this at
<troy_s> wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork
<troy_s> That help?
<viper550> I don't see any drafts
<troy_s> The link for launchpad is there I believe.
<viper550> Never mind, 
<troy_s> Is it?
<troy_s> If it isn't clear, you should pass your comments on to Etienne and Pascal.
<viper550> I'm going to rethink about consistancy and making something like the DeFacto idea
<troy_s> Feel free to do whatever you like, but if you wish to contribute to the default Human issues, the specs are there.
<viper550> Now...to decide which colors would go good...Beige and Blue went together nice on ClearLooks 2 (Fedora Core 5's default)
<troy_s> Try to gather your thoughts up in a cohesive fashion and document them in a persuasive way that developers / artists / and such can quickly evaluate.  There is a spec template there, and you can reference the four edgy target specs as a guide.
<viper550> If Frozen is one of those specs, that was mine
<troy_s> It's not a spec
<troy_s> It is up to the individual to build a case.
<troy_s> And that means a heck of a lot of work.
<viper550> Maybe I'll go something based off the DeFacto, Silver, Orange and Green
<viper550> Wondering where I got that from?
<troy_s> Do not expect anything to be included by default that isn't 100% up to an acceptable professional level.  There are individuals now in place to determine this and offer creative feedback if you desire.
<viper550> I was just brainstorming!
<troy_s> Yep.
<troy_s> And there is a braindump specification technique for launchpad.
<viper550> Would that look good?
<troy_s> I don't know... personally, I would prefer to see thumbnails and such on a single page.
<troy_s> Too hard if one needs to click several links to get a 'feel'.  That is the work of the submitter.
<viper550> I'll work on that, I even have ideas for making consistancy between KDE and GTK!
<viper550> And I am using gFlat here
<troy_s> If you put some serious work in, and some serious effort towards gathering that sort of information, you will get a lot further.
<troy_s> Don't bother 
<troy_s> KDE is NOT equal to GNOME
<troy_s> nor ever will be in the near future.
<viper550> I know that
<viper550> I was talking THEME WIZE
<troy_s> and sabdfl has stated this (i believe niel added his quote to guildelines in the wiki)
<troy_s> Kubuntu and Ubuntu are to remain distinctive.
<viper550> I know
<troy_s> So I would recommend not posting specs that differ with the established guidelines thus far.  But again, it is a free world :)
<viper550> I was talking about when you use a KDE application on Ubuntu without KDE and it doesn't end up matching with the enviroment, concerning the end user
<troy_s> I believe who_ is attempting to spec something to that effect.
<troy_s> it is not an easy task.
<troy_s> and has many many factors to consider.
<viper550> Okay
<kwwii> as of this time, it is impossible due to the infrastructure
<troy_s> kwwii would be a better person to address the KDE end, but I think in principle everyone fundamentally agrees.
<troy_s> It is massive to tackle.
<viper550> Bye, I'm going to query the Gnome Artwork IRC for ideas
<troy_s> adieu
<kwwii> actually kde does pretty well with gnome apps running in kde
<kwwii> it is more an issue of icons than anything else I guess
<kwwii> perhaps working on the xdg spec would be better
<kwwii> to create an infrastructure which supports it
<troy_s> that's a good idea really...
<kwwii> btw...if anyone wants to see a group pic from the summit check out this link:
<kwwii> http://bootsplash.org/14_3.jpg
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-06-18
<darkmatter> http://huerlisi.files.wordpress.com/2007/06/dolphin-oxygen.png
<Phantomgraph> 'Ello All :)
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-artwork.log
<coz_> anyone here in charge of memberships???
<coz_> troy_s, are you avaiable?
<dilomo> what's up people
<dilomo> what's up
<dilomo> whit the progress
<dilomo> did you saw my example bg?
<dilomo> with*
<nothlit> hmm? there hasn't been any feedback at all on the mock sketches or palettes or the wiki, and a community theme can't really progress without community input... so nothing
<dilomo> that's bad
<dilomo> i have an idea
<dilomo> why don't give people tasks
<dilomo> so that they know what to do
<nothlit> tasks are fine, but there is no input on direction
<dilomo> well you are here from a long time, I suppose
<dilomo> so you know what have  to be done
<nothlit> lol nah i haven't been around in the ubuntu artwork area
<nothlit> i just talked with troy_s, and tried to get something going on the mailing list
<dilomo> and what is troy_s saying about the aim of the artwork group
<nothlit> well it doesn't really do anything at the moment
<nothlit> kwwii and sabdfl (mark shuttleworth) handle the official stuff
<nothlit> and the community itself has been sitting around since edgy
<dilomo> yeah  I can see that
<dilomo> in the ubuntu theme
<kwwii> hi al
<kwwii> all
<dilomo> hi :)
<kwwii> I would encourage anyone with a good idea for a theme to make it - we can include some themes from the community
<nothlit> lol sorry for the ping
<kwwii> also, I would encourage people to submit ideas for the default artwork - but understand that not everything will be accepted and used as-is
<kwwii> hehe, hi nothlit
<nothlit> yeah theres an artwork packagebuilder kwwii has implemented now even
<kwwii> if a few people stepped up and made a theme of their own it would be much easier to get a group working on the default artwork
<nothlit> kwwii: is there a blog post, discussion, or wiki page as an official channel for people to do that?
<dilomo> I want to make new theme
<kwwii> not as such, but there is the documentation page on using the automaticArtworkBuilder to create your theme
<kwwii> it is a step by step how-to
<dilomo> but I don't know whre to start from
<kwwii> well, you would start by having a definite idea of what you want :-)
<nothlit> dilomo: the wiki has some good pages, gnome.org has gtk,metacity, icon, gdm guides
<dilomo> Yeah I got that
<kwwii> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AutomaticArtworkBuilderInstructions
<kwwii> of course, you can ask here and on the mailing list for anything specific
<kwwii> and feel free to start a wiki page - other people might offer help as well
<dilomo> I want to know what engine
<dilomo> will be included in the next release of Ubuntu
<dilomo> compiz or what?
<nothlit> ubuntulooks
<nothlit> and some standard ones you can see in the metapackage
<kwwii> exactly
<nothlit> but it doesn't matter
<dilomo> why?
<nothlit> when you package it you can specify the needed engine as a dependency
<dilomo> i understand
<dilomo> there are such engines out there :murrina ...
<dilomo> I know that ubuntu is orange but is there a constrant
<dilomo> how bright the colour should be?
<nothlit> lol
<nothlit> brightness is all relative, when you're attempting to achieve your aesthetic look you will find your balance
<dilomo> ok
<dilomo> where should I upload the new theme?
<nothlit> once you grab the built package give it to the motus, or however the submitting process goes
<nothlit> google should help there, or #ubuntu-motu
<dilomo> 10x
<dilomo> i have to go now
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-06-19
<darkmatter> http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php/Oxygenated?content=60734 :P
<coz_> troy_s, are you available
<coz_> anyone else here responsible for the memberships??/
<nothlit> coz_: troy is away for a week or two still iirc
<coz_> nothlit, ah i see   then who else would be involved in the memerships     do you kow?
<nothlit> i don't think anybody else has admin on the group
<nothlit> ask #launchpad?
<coz_> nothlit, well my membership is about to expire and need someone to change that
<coz_> nothlit, yeah I will try at some point thanks :)
<nothlit> coz_: Registered by:   Daniel Holbach
<coz_> ok
<nothlit> the team itself is open, so i suppose it it expires you can just rejoin
<coz_> sounds good to me :)
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-06-21
<sabdfl> hi folks
<sabdfl> anybody have a hi-res version of the current usplash image?
<nothlit> wow he left quick
<pochu> Would you mind looking at bug #120871? :)
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 120871 in human-icon-theme ""Images" icon missing in the search app" [Low,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/120871
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-06-22
<lapo> hi there
<nothlit> hihi
<dholbach> kwwii: I've switched to dmz-cursor-theme
<dholbach> kwwii: it has the new jimmac cursors (not the black ones though)
<dholbach> kwwii: just thought I'd let you know
<dholbach> we'll drop human-cursors-theme with that
<dholbach> (just jumped in here because you weren't in #ubuntu-devel)
<kwwii> dholbach: great, thanks :-)
<dholbach> :)
<dholbach> *wave*
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-06-23
<Punk_Boi_8> Hi, Im new to the project
<Punk_Boi_8> My names Nathan
<Punk_Boi_8> helllllllllo?
<Punk_Boi_8> Is this the Ubuntu Art IRC room
<Punk_Boi_8> Plz respond
<Punk_Boi_8> Hello?
<Madpilot> Punk_Boi_8, hi. It's usually pretty quiet in this room
<Punk_Boi_8> thx
<Punk_Boi_8> Im new
<Madpilot> the mailing list is often a better way to reach the art team
<Punk_Boi_8> thx, ive joined
<Punk_Boi_8> I use windows, but I am making a attempt to dual-boot with Ubuntu
<Madpilot> cool. Just starting out with Ubuntu?
<Punk_Boi_8> Yeah
<Punk_Boi_8> Used to edit Wikipedia, but got banned for ignoring my mentor
<Punk_Boi_8> liked the idea of open source, so I came here
<Madpilot> heh. Welcome to Ubuntu, anyway.
<Punk_Boi_8> thx
<Punk_Boi_8> Im on lanucpad, tring to find the specs
<Punk_Boi_8> can I have some help?
<Madpilot> art specs? Not sure - I'd start out on the artteam's homepage on lp
<Punk_Boi_8> found it
<Madpilot> to be honest, art team has been pretty quiet lately
<nothlit> the lp tasks aren't really there for us to fill
<Punk_Boi_8> Well, Ive just surcribed to a task
<nothlit> mostly this channel acts as a springboard for oss art people that use ubuntu, or try to submit some extra artwork, packages, themes
<Punk_Boi_8> oh, I found on the wiki this is a great place to start
<Punk_Boi_8> Ive got to leave, thx 4 ur help
<Punk_Boi_8> Bye
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-06-24
<TheSheep> you guys have seen this? http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2502875508327767830
<nothlit> what accent does she have? its curious
<nothlit> wow, his chosen websites aren't very nice
<TheSheep> he didn't spend a lot of time on chosing :)
<klepas> moin
<troy_s> That's a great link.
* mode/#ubuntu-artwork [+o troy_s]  by ChanServ
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-artwork:troy_s] : Welcome to #ubuntu-artwork!  Thanks to TheSheep for this link:  http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2502875508327767830
* mode/#ubuntu-artwork [-o troy_s]  by troy_s
<nothlit> lol, whats new in there compared not already known or learned by composition
<troy_s> nothlit: It is just an interesting take on it.  I find most of it quite foolish actually and ill researched.  He restricted his "study" to westernized thinking and examples.  He should have done a little art history before making those claims.
<troy_s> nothlit: Most of what he comes to conclusion on is learned history based on post-ren thinking -- aka Phi and all of its implications.  It also fails to take into account historical context, thematic context, and a few other massive factors.
<nothlit`alpha> lol, it wasn't really researched at all, he seems to think his [very biased and personal]  suppositions are groundbreaking, as well as his findings
<nothlit`alpha> i find it interesting that he says hes a photographer/looked deeply into this stuff, because its obvious he has no grounding
<nothlit`alpha> i think articles colour theory/composition would be far more articulate, and efficient to link to
<troy_s> nothlit`alpha: Yeah... like I said, it gets a +1 for at least trying.  -6 for being rather foolish in pursuit / scope / understanding.
<BHSPitLappy> Why does the ubuntu.com tour of ubuntu show Dapper screenshots?
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-06-16
<SynthroidMan> http://synthroid.co.uk/
<psyke83> kwwii, hey, how's the new theme progressing? I'm getting impatient here ;)
<kwwii> psyke83: finished all the hardy stuff and started on that today, coming soon
<psyke83> :)
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-06-17
<kwwii> hrm, where is conn when you need him
<kwwii> psyke83: so, there is a small problem with the human gtkrc for hardy
<psyke83> kwwii, what's wrong?
<kwwii> psyke83: basically, they say that for updates the changes should be as minor as possible
<kwwii> doing a diff between the old and the new version the changes are pretty major
<kwwii> I tried to explain it to them, we'll see what happens
<kwwii> but it might be necessary to make the change as small as possible (there are a few non-critical changes like the animation stuff) I guess
<psyke83> kwwii, right, I understand. Remember when I made Human color-chooser compatible? I based it on Human but had to hack a lot of things to emulate the old Human theme, because it was actually using three different orange colours (the metacity, selected bg color and the orange highlight for buttons and progressbars etc.). Unfortunately this broke Banshee as they use custom widgets
<psyke83> I decided to rebase a lot of code on Human-Murrine and it worked better... that's why there's so much different code
<kwwii> psyke83: right, I actually spent an hour or so figuring out exactly what you did :p
<psyke83> kwwii, did you find problems when using the theme yourself?
<kwwii> they started firing off questions as to whether this and that was really needed ;-)
<kwwii> psyke83: nope, it seems to work fine for me
<psyke83> jeez man, I feel bad for putting you through that now ;)
<kwwii> hehe, I should be responsible for the work I do, probably just better that way :D
<psyke83> the point was to fix bug 237261, did you mention it?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 237261 in human-theme "Human theme makes bad GTK widget class assumptions" [Undecided,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/237261
<kwwii> yes, that was how I tried to fend them off the first time
<kwwii> the bug is complicated to read in itself
<kwwii> and then to explain what parts for which release, confusing
<psyke83> basically, banshee uses some weird custom widgets that get misidentified by the Human theme
<kwwii> right
<psyke83> well, I can try looking over the code again and try to fix this problem with minimal changes (though the new version is actually less hacky and better, since it's based on Human-Murrine which I've been giving a lot more attention to)
<kwwii> wait for now, I think my explanation might just get it through
<kwwii> but don't hate me if I come back asking :-)
<psyke83> ok, hehe
<psyke83> I'm the one that volunteered to fix this bug, it should be me getting some flak too ;)
<kwwii> btw, do you think that the retro murrine for intrepid would be the best place to start for the dark theme?
<psyke83> kwwii, absolutely, but it needs a tiny change
<kwwii> what's that?
<psyke83> you remember when we had the metacity color problem in gnome-appearance-preferences?
<kwwii> yepp
<psyke83> look at line 54 of the gtkrc, the bg[SELECTED] line. That sets the colour to the "caramel" used for metacity
<kwwii> kinda funky that the app which does the appearence settings doesn't appear right
<psyke83> it mixes the fg colour and selected bg colour by 25% to get the effect - that will mess up your theme's metacity
<psyke83> so, just set it to: bg[SELECTED] = @selected_bg_color
<kwwii> ahhh, right, I see it
<kwwii> thanks for the tip
<psyke83> if you "pkill metacity" with the retro theme you'll see the change - the metacity border will look bright orange or something
<psyke83> I think that's the only change you need to make
<kwwii> hrm, that makes the window deco in the preview darker, but the window deco itself stays lighter
<psyke83> ah, one sec
<kwwii> well, we need a new metacity theme too anyway
<psyke83> also comment the line 259 (the only entry in "metacity-frame")
<psyke83> hmm, I also lightened the checkmarks, that's unnecessary for a dark theme... will I just send the gtkrc with the unnecessary stuff removed?
<kwwii> sure, if you have the time it would be greta
<kwwii> erm, great
<kwwii> http://sinecera.de/current.png shows the colors I was thinking of with the retro theme as is
<kwwii> probably make the page bg as little off-white though
<psyke83> and what about the selected bg orange?
<kwwii> it will probably need to be turned down a bit to a more brown tone, it's been really hard to find exactly the right color
<psyke83> what about something like this: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-art/attachments/20080531/c29553ff/attachment-0001.png
<kwwii> I am not happy with how the selected bg color appears in the menu selection...another thing I was playing with changing
<psyke83> kwwii, I also lightened the selected bg for menus as it was far too strong with the retro colours, I'll remove that too
<kwwii> the thing is that we still have orange icons, so we do need to accomodate for that
<kwwii> that screenshot seems to need a bit more contrast, I think
<kwwii> at least on my laptop lcd is looks a little muddy
<elkbuntu> that's really hard to read...
<psyke83> kwwii, sorry, I meant just the selected bg colour in that screenshot
<psyke83> the "coffee"... the bg is too light
<psyke83> kwwii, did you look at the new UbuntuStudio theme?
<psyke83> let me show you the new menus, you might like... one sec
<kwwii> psyke83: nope, haven't seen it yet
<psyke83> http://connogriofa.googlepages.com/Screenshot-TheWidgetFactory-2.png
<psyke83> notice the selected menubar button matches the menu background
<kwwii> yeah, that does look pretty nifty
<kwwii> I wish that the widgets had the same amount of rounding though
<kwwii> the progress bar and the menu highlight need a bit more rounding, if you ask me (which you didn't!)
<psyke83> you mean menu item highlight?
<kwwii> yepp
<psyke83> the progress bar can't be rounded with the murrine engine, unfortunately
<kwwii> I think I should learn how to write theme engines
<psyke83> heh
<psyke83> nearly finished
<psyke83> do you want to try darkening the menubar (like UbuntuStudio)?
<kwwii> yes, I think it should be dark as well
<elkbuntu> please tell me you guys are not seriously considering this for default :-/
<_MMA_> elkbuntu: That is up to he powers that be.
<elkbuntu> _MMA_, i hope they find it equally impossible to read as i do then
<_MMA_> Ahh... opinions. :)
<elkbuntu> _MMA_, ahh, deteriorating eyesight
 * _MMA_ hands Melissa a screen-reader and on of many high-contrast themes.
<_MMA_> s/on/one
<elkbuntu> _MMA_, not that bad yet, but if a 26yrold with minor eyesight issues has problems, i fear for anyone older or worse off
<psyke83> elkbuntu, what part is difficult to read?
<_MMA_> elkbuntu: Sure, but constantly catering to the minority or people who *might* not like a style stifles progress and creativity.
<elkbuntu> psyke83, swaping between the white text and almost_the_same_the_background colours and lines and so forth
<elkbuntu> _MMA_, using something that requires the average 50yrold to need help to change a theme isnt a good impression to create
<elkbuntu> _MMA_, just as candy should never be a staple, gloss should never be more favoured than usability
<_MMA_> elkbuntu: Then that can switch to one of the high-contrast themes Ubuntu ships.
<elkbuntu> _MMA_, with that theme, if i didnt know ubuntu, i wouldnt be able to *find* how to change it
<elkbuntu> it's *that* hard for me to read
<_MMA_> That's the breaks then.
<_MMA_> Catering to everyone will *never* work.
<elkbuntu> _MMA_, that's a really really really dangerous attitude to have
<psyke83> even though I'm working on this dark theme, I also agree with elkbuntu  ;)
<_MMA_> Ok. :)
<_MMA_> Danger in my middle name. ;)
<psyke83> I thought it was "music" :P
<_MMA_> ;)
<psyke83> kwwii: I sent the gtkrc via email, here's a screenshot: http://connogriofa.googlepages.com/Screenshot-TheWidgetFactory-3.png
<_MMA_> Trying to cater to *everyone* will only yield the most generic crap you can think of. What appeals to 20-somethings will not necessarily go over well with grandmothers. Going for a constant middle-ground is one thing that will also hinder linux on the desktop adoption. Define a audience. Go for them. If people outside of that dig what you do, great.
<psyke83> all the tweaks needed for the light theme were removed (like menu item shading etc)
<kwwii> sorry, had to make my son lunch...back now
<psyke83> the menu item roundness matches the rest of the theme, and I plagiarized most of Cory's theme style ;)
<_MMA_> psyke83: Which reminds me, once out darker on is more settled (Im on the fence about the combined GTK/Metacity) we should do up the light version.
<psyke83> elkbuntu, the Human-Murrine and Human-Clearlooks themes will still be available... if there is a major accessibility issue for the dark theme (when it's final), then perhaps some concessions will be made, who knows
<psyke83> _MMA_, ok
<kwwii> _MMA_: I plan on putting in a legacy-human theme as well
<_MMA_> kwwii: \m/
<kwwii> but you'll have to install that extra
<kwwii> we will also have a legacy-murrine theme by default
<psyke83> kwwii, how will you have a legacy-human theme if the ubuntulooks engine is getting axed?
<psyke83> oops I need to fix something very small in the gtkrc, will send an update
<kwwii> psyke83: it will be installable in main, but not on the CDs or in the default selection
<_MMA_> kwwii: There's not a couple of k on the disk for it?
<elkbuntu> _MMA_, im not talking about preference, im talking about usability. that theme would probably require assistive technology that i otherwise have not needed for any other system ever. I'll be quite disappointed if ubuntu tries to be so cutting edge that I become visually impaired from using a default system.
<kwwii> _MMA_: dude, getting rid of ubuntulooks is a good thing
<kwwii> and in the end we might just have to go back to it anyway :p
<psyke83> kwwii, sent the update (to fix mismatched gnome-panel shading)
<kwwii> elkbuntu: the screen you saw is not the one we are talking about
<kwwii> psyke83: cool, I'll check it out
<_MMA_> elkbuntu: Who's "ï»¿usability"? ï»¿Usability depends on the audience to a massive degree. You are a corner case for 20-somethings. And I'm sure you know, corner-cases dont always matter around what we do in Ubuntu.
<psyke83> kwwii, don't be surprised when the metacity looks awful, that's the real colours it should be using. The hacks are removed that made it "caramel" since they would interfere with a new metacity theme
<elkbuntu> kwwii, im not sure we're arguing about any particular screen, rather the philosophy of 'screw you and all who dont have 20:20 eyesight' attitude.
<_MMA_> elkbuntu: It's actually a much larger "We need to cater to *everyone*" thing. ;)
<psyke83> I think this is an issue that needs serious consideration. I would term it more like: "we need to alienate the least amount of people in our key demographic" ;)
<_MMA_> psyke83: "ï»¿our key demographic" Which is? :)
<elkbuntu> _MMA_, Human Beings
<elkbuntu> _MMA_, if the strapline means *anything*
<_MMA_> No. That doesnt work.
<elkbuntu> false advertising ftw then
<kwwii> psyke83: excellent, thanks
<psyke83> np
<kwwii> elkbuntu: there is no way to make artwork which everyone likes
<_MMA_> ï»¿elkbuntu: Like I said. That only yields generic, cater to the lowest common denominator crap that stifles innovation. It's a pretty big problem around our entire community.
<psyke83> kwwii, you may want to mention to the higher-ups that firefox is terribly non-compliant with dark themes, though. There are several issues that need to be looked at
<kwwii> psyke83: I have already started a discussion with the firefox maintainer
<psyke83> cool
<elkbuntu> kwwii, aesthetic preference != usability preference. I'm talking the latter.
<elkbuntu> kwwii, you've met me. you know i dont wear glasses. is it right that someone as common as i should be alienated by a theme?
<kwwii> elkbuntu: no, and the theme will not be one which is really hard to read :-)
<elkbuntu> kwwii, i know you well enough to know *you* wouldnt do something like that.
<kwwii> well, the whole dark theme idea pretty much came from me, so you might hate me in the end anyway :p
<_MMA_> kwwii: pfftt... You stole it from me.
<_MMA_> :P
<elkbuntu> kwwii, dark themes are not the problem. i've used dark themes before. the contrast is what's messing me up
<elkbuntu> the bright white glares out all the nearly-the-same-as-the-background stuff
<psyke83> _MMA_, totally agreed, there's a lot of plagiarism going on here and it's totally not cool... :P
<_MMA_> hehe
<_MMA_> My desktop: http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/1289/humandarkfw8.png It's so l33t.
<kwwii> _MMA_: I like the consistent use of black, very artsy
<_MMA_> kwwii: Yes. I was going for a "creature of the night" sorta thing.
<_MMA_> A desktop for vampires thing.
<kwwii> :p
<kwwii> psyke83: the dark menubar, although nice, would need to be accounted for in the metacity inactive window decoration
<kwwii> I guess I should stop working on gtkrc and start working on the metacity theme
<psyke83> kwwii, actually you can put a tweak in the gtkrc to keep it consistent with the menubar
<psyke83> *it = metacity's inactive window
<kwwii> psyke83: erm, what is the tweak? might try it out (although we need a new metacity theme anyway)
<psyke83> just a sec
<psyke83> kwwii, in section "metacity-frame", insert: bg[NORMAL]= shade (0.85, @bg_color)
<psyke83> line 255 or so
<psyke83> put a comment there to remind you that it has to be the same as the entries in the sections "murrine-menubar" and "panel" (I've commented those already)
<kwwii> psyke83: hrm, that didn't seem to change anything...not sure whether metacity has to be restarted or such
<kwwii> nope, that didn't seem to do the anything noticable
<kwwii> anyway, looking into metacity now, probably be the best solution in the long run
<psyke83> kwwii, no that should fix it
<psyke83> you need to restart metacity
<psyke83> pkill metacity (it's a bug in gnome-appearances-preferences, doesn't refresh metacity properly)
<psyke83> it's better to put that line in, because the menubar, panel and metacity active bg always need to be in sync
<psyke83> the gtkrc is the best place to keep them in sync
<psyke83> sorry normal bg
<psyke83> kwwii: http://connogriofa.googlepages.com/Screenshot-2.png
<kwwii> lol, I was using compiz :p
<_MMA_> Tard
<kwwii> much nicer now
<kwwii> gotta take my kid to basketball practice, bbl
<dashua_> http://picpaste.com/pics/Screenshot_13.1213726786.png
<dashua_> Here's my dark Hardy theme.  Fairly usable and I'm not a big fan of dark themes either.
<psyke83> dashua_, the glass effect is way too over the top ;)
<psyke83> you can't even discern the radiobutton or checkmarks properly
<dashua_> Yeah, it's a bit aggressive.
<dashua_> Human Murrine is still my favorite
<pwnguin> i have to ask
<pwnguin> why would you want to imitate vista?
<_MMA_> dashua_: I like the colors. Hits me like cell-shaded animation.
<dashua_> If Vista looked this good, I wouldn't be using Ubuntu =/
<pwnguin> _MMA_: i'd been thinking about a compiz theme do do that kinda stuff
<pwnguin> thick outlines on windows
<dashua_> psyke83: This is the Compiz Murrina theme with some color changes.
<psyke83> I actually dislike 90% of Murrine themes because of the glass effect, which is why I lowered the hilight_ratio for Human Murrine. The new SVN version of Murrine is even better, it allows you to change the gradient shades for widgets
<pwnguin> I've been trying out the murrine based netbook theme
<dashua_> psyke83: I'm using Revision 37
<dashua_> Think that is the latest.  Haven't updated in a while.
<dashua_> Human-Murrine is very subtle and professional.
<dashua_> Are you going to be using RGBA transparency effects with the latest murrine engine?
<_MMA_> Not by default.
<dashua_> I think it does gnome-system monitor by default.
<psyke83> got a link for Compiz Murrina (and what does Compiz have to do with a gtk theme?) ?
<dashua_> They're making a live Compiz .iso
<dashua_> This is one of the developers themes,
<psyke83> dashua_, well, it's enabled in the gtkrc files at the moment, but it's probably going to need testing
<dashua_> psyke83: http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php/Compiz-Fusion+Dark+Live+CD+Murrina?content=78513
<dashua_> This new color scheme plays nice with Oo.  Most dark themes do not display the icons.
<psyke83> _MMA_, you better disable it in your gtkrc before uploading it, then
<psyke83> ah
<_MMA_> psyke83: Its been uploaded already. Its fine now for testing but should be turned off for release.
<psyke83> Ken's theme displays icons in OO.o fine...
<psyke83> _MMA_, are you sure? I thought it would be enabled as per the spit-and-polish spec
<psyke83> gnome-session got an update to enable RGBA effects today, for example
<_MMA_> psyke83: Last I heard it wouldn't be on by default at release. I guess it depends on how testing goes.
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-06-19
<denga> moin
<denga> moin
<neoavatar_> hello there
<psyke83> kwwii: any news re: the hardy theme SRU?
<kwwii> psyke83: yes, they made it into the list but they will not be in the 8.4.1 as it was too late
<psyke83> ok
<kwwii> psyke83: so as soon as that gets out they will wander there way in
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-06-20
<pwnguin> ok thats wierd. the folder icon only has dark lines and drop shadows at one size
<DanaG> oDD: the file chooser that Firefox uses... doesn't use my icon theme.
<DanaG> s/oDD/Odd/
<Kinch> hello
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-06-15
<thorwil> kwwii: i don't think splitting Backgrounds is a job for more than one person
<thorwil> kwwii: but now that i want to do it, i have to wonder how to deal with the attachments
<thorwil> if is use "copy page", will the copy also have copied attachments?
<thorwil> hi rsc___, SiDi
<thorwil> kwwii: a test shows that "copy page" indeed also results in copied attachments
<SiDi> hi thorwil
<thorwil> SiDi: i'm currently considering to do the Backgrounds split by first creating copies of it as the new sub-pages
<thorwil> SiDi: but in that case, i will have to go through the attachments to delete was isn't used on each page
<kwwii> thorwil: yeah, I was thinking the same thing but since you said you wanted to tackle the problem I figured I should offer my help ;)
<kwwii> I do not think that copying the page will also copy the attachments
<thorwil> kwwii: it does. i tried
<kwwii> erm, reading up it seems it does
<kwwii> :p
<thorwil> heh
<kwwii> I should read all the logs before responding
<kwwii> in case anyone is interested in the wierd music I like, check out this sampler: http://www.subpop.com/cybersex
<kwwii> and no, it is not a virus :p
<thorwil> wow, that's really this-millennium webdesign ... what am i saying? - web-art!
 * macvr thinks kwwii like the Paris kind ! :P
<thorwil> ok people, stay away from Backgrounds now for a bit! :)
<macvr> thorwil: is bazaar down again?
<thorwil> macvr: huh? you mean Launchpad? i wouldn't notice
<SiDi> thorwil: you dont hope me to help you delete the attachments, do you ? :D
<kwwii> thorwil: I'll send an email to the list stating that nobody should touch that page until you give the green light
<macvr> ok
<thorwil> kwwii: nah, list too slow
<thorwil> SiDi: well, would you? :)
<macvr> kwwii: doesnt the wiki just warn if someone is editing the page?
<thorwil> macvr: yes, but i'm not editing the main page during the entire operation
<SiDi> thorwil: dunno... staying an hour in the shower sounds tempting right now
<thorwil> SiDi: an hour in the shower will turn you into a frog!
<macvr> thorwil: what makes you think he isnt one already? :P
<SiDi> thorwil: im french. i'm already a frog
<macvr> ^ see
<thorwil> SiDi: oh, i though it was frog-eater, not just frog! ;)
<SiDi> we're called the frogs :(
<SiDi> i never ate any frog though
<SiDi> but ive heard its tasty
<SiDi> (greek people eat a lot of these too)
<kwwii> I have eaten lots of frogs and they are delicous
<macvr> here after i'm going to try to speak to SiDi in french... :P    i'm forgetting french
<kwwii> we used to catch them at home and make frog legs
<SiDi> macvr: feel free to do so :p
<SiDi> eew kwwii poor little frogs Q.Q
<kwwii> ;)
<macvr> SiDi: you should have noticed the emphasis was i'll TRY ... :P
<thorwil> i *ing hat that surge protection
<thorwil> hate, even
<andreasn> hi kwwii, back from vacation?
<kwwii> andreasn: yeah, haven't edited the pics yet though :)
<rsc___> sup folks.
<rsc___> :)
<SiDi> heya
<kwwii> andreasn: I am fresh and ready for work :p
<macvr> thorwil: did u have time to check the wiki submissions? default emblem?
<kwwii> just signing up for the gran canaria summit in a couple of weeks
<thorwil> macvr: it chnaged from yesterday?
<kwwii> apparently it is hard to find a hotel room
<kwwii> hi rsc___
<macvr> thorwil: i had uploaded 2 yesterday... comments?
<andreasn> kwwii, good to hear, looking forward to see you there
<andreasn> yeah, the hotel situation is a bit tricky
<kwwii> andreasn: hopefully the weather will be nice and I can just sleep on the beach :p
<andreasn> the Low Budget and Being Robbed Option
<thorwil> could have a future in hard economic times
<kwwii> I am amazed that canonical is paying this time and I don't have to take vacation ;)
<SiDi> kwwii: no beach then :O
<thorwil> now i get the surge protection warning everytime i try to get on the Backgrounds attachments page :(
<SiDi> of course, you wiki spammer
<thorwil> that's really unfortunate, as i just wanted to download everything for safety
<kwwii> thorwil: let me see if I can do it
<kwwii> wow, that is a lot of attachments
<thorwil> kwwii: yeah, do you happen to have the FF extension DownThemAll or similar? ;)
<SiDi> i has it
<kwwii> thorwil: no but I will get it if it helps
 * thorwil has it for mass-downloading of anatomical reference images of of course purely artistic interest!
<SiDi> purely artistic, indeed.
<macvr> SiDi: could you check if this link works for you? http://bazaar.launchpad.net/%7Ebreathe-dev/breathe-icon-set/trunk/download/head:/mailsend.svg-20090503012016-es0diogovhzmsc27-32/mail-send.svg
<thorwil> macvr: of course, this wiki doesn't deliver images to me on the Breathe page, either
<thorwil> wiki wacky
<SiDi> macvr: it does
<macvr> this particular svg i'm not able to grab... rest of the links work for me
<SiDi> and its crazily sexy :D
<macvr> SiDi: could u upload that file somewhere?
<SiDi> macvr: where should i upload it ? :/
<macvr> SiDi: any file host? http://filebin.ca/
<kwwii> hrm, how in the world does this downthemall work?
<SiDi> kwwii: :D
<macvr> i'v been trying to to get that svg for nearly 30 mins!
<thorwil> kwwii: righ-click on dead space on the page, select DownThemALL
<SiDi> http://filebin.ca/qoyojh/mail-send.svg macvr
<kwwii> thorwil: yeah, and then I get 1542 different background.html pages
<kwwii> 1532, sorry
<macvr> SiDi: got it... thanx! that file was driving me crazy :/
<kwwii> wow, it seems to want to download the entire wiki
<thorwil> kwwii: from the attachments page, it should be no problem to use the "Links" tab and use "Images" as filter, perhaps
<kwwii> thorwil: yeah, but now the surge protection is getting me too
<thorwil> ugly beast, developed by satan himself in 9th hell!!!
<kwwii> no dobut
<kwwii> and the warning that is will only get worse is pretty crappy
<kwwii> guess I'll wait a bit and hope that it works
<kwwii> hi arusha
<arusha> hi ken, how are you?
<kwwii> good, getting back to the grind after a nice holiday with the family
<thorwil> kwwii: logged out and now downloading them all ... meanwhile coffee, bbl
<kwwii> thorwil: funny, logging out is a work-around for the surge protection
<kwwii> so non-members are treated better than members
<kwwii> erm, I take that back
<kwwii> after a few of them downloaded it stopped
<arusha> kwwii, sorry I am now in a meeting
<arusha> kwwii, back
<thorwil> kwwii: the first 2 sections at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Karmic/Backgrounds/ mare a bit confusing
<thorwil> kwwii: whatever happened to the adjectives/slogans
<thorwil> kwwii: and what part of that should stay on the main page and what should be on the Backgrounds/Default page?
<thorwil> kwwii: and "default" rather means included in the default install, not necessarily the one preselected background, right?
<kwwii> thorwil: cool, I will take a look in a bit, got a meeting in a minute
<kwwii> hrm, the slogans an adjectives should still be there I think
<kwwii> I did not remove them
<kwwii> thorwil: well, I use default for the selected ubuntu wallpaper
<kwwii> and the other wallpapers are for the extra wallpaper package (which hopefully will also be on the install disk
<kwwii> )
<thorwil> ah, ok
<thorwil> does someone here know how one could script clicking links on a webpage that reloads after each such click (attachments page)?
<knome> what do you mean?
<thorwil> knome: on pages like https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Karmic/Backgrounds/Default?action=AttachFile i need to click all the right [del] links ...
<knome> thorwil, do you reckon even a normal form with checkboxes and "update" status would be better?
<thorwil> knome: yeah
<thorwil> but i have this specific problem to solve
<kwwii> if anyone knows how to do it I would think mr nuzum would be the best person to ask
<thorwil> kwwii: sure, once he wakes up/appears ;)
<kwwii> well, I already talked to him today and I am currently on the phone with him in a meeting
<kwwii> so he should be around sometime
<thorwil> quite a number of people used filenames as suggested, but there's a killer with files like IMGP0001_s.JPG
<kwwii> I will tell him to join the channel at the end of the meeting
<thorwil> kwwii: thanks, but i'm also in -website ;)
<kwwii> cool
<thorwil> please someone check if all the images appear on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Karmic/Backgrounds/Default
<thorwil> nm
<macvr> thorwil: hi, could you comment on the new emblems i'v uploaded?
<thorwil> macvr: emblem-default appears needlessly complicated to me. a checkmark in on shield with an outline
<thorwil> that curve still looks odd
<macvr> :(
<macvr> rest?
<thorwil> macvr: emblem-mail should be similar to the mail envelope in use elsewhere
<macvr> i could do that but, all the icon set do the same... hence i wanted to do differently :P
<macvr> thorwil: also what if the fuss about the media icons? horizontal flipping the media forward should do it right?
<macvr> is^
<macvr> for the media back
<thorwil> macvr: didn't those have lighting shifted to the right?
<macvr> they are white ... other than the border darkness i cant make out any light!
<thorwil> kwwii: just send an email, asking for volunteers to help with deleting the redundant attachments. newz had thsi same idea independently and nothing else to offer
<kwwii> thorwil: saw it, good work...I'll do my part as well
<thorwil> kwwii: ty, cool
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-06-16
<kwwii> thorwil: nice work on the background pages, thanks
<thorwil> kwwii: np. it's not quite over yet :)
<thorwil> kwwii: i would appreciate if you could take care of the introduction regarding default background. how much of that belongs on the main page and what should be on the sub-page?
<kwwii> thorwil: ok, I'll take care of it...I also have a call today about linking the wallpaper contest with the free culture showcase
<thorwil> sheesh, i should have though of turning of image-loading earlier!
<kwwii> thorwil: hehe, good idea
<kwwii> if anyone is interested in playing with empathy, there are packages here: https://edge.launchpad.net/~ken-vandine/+archive/empathy
<kwwii> the neat thing about this version is that you can use adium themes for the message window
<knome> "playing with empathy" ;)
<kwwii> ;)
<SiDi> thorwil: you're welcome for the *help* :|
<thorwil> SiDi: what, that wasn't a no?
<SiDi> well, i was a bit busy coding today :p
<thorwil> SiDi: what's your point, then?
<SiDi> it was ironical
<SiDi> and kudos for ur work on the wiki ;)
<thorwil> heh, ty
<SiDi> you've been courageous
<thorwil> i wish we had an artwork database, especially for the backgrounds
<thorwil> upload, automnatic thumbnial generation, tagging for target-release, type and so on
<SiDi> i think it could be setup
<SiDi> but integrating this in the wiki would be harder
<macvr> thorwil: Hi, did you check out the devil smileys? could you comment about them to the list/now if you are free?
<thorwil> macvr: i already did
<macvr> oops ... only now i got it!
<macvr> thorwil: how would it look with the red from the emblem-unreadable?
<thorwil> macvr: that might do it
<macvr> :) ..... i'v suggested it in the mail
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-06-17
<thorwil> arg.
<thorwil> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Karmic/Earthubuntu
<kwwii> oh my
<kwwii> Linux for Hummans
<thorwil> kwwii: i bet the earth parts are from an image with non-permissive/no license
<kwwii> thorwil: lol, yeah
<thorwil> kwwii: let me add a comment to that effect on that page. now that i fought my urge to simply delete that page
<kwwii> hehe, go ahead
<thorwil> kwwii: which reminds me, i told the author of https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Karmic/UbuntuLogoCurved that that is going nowhere and that he should remove it
<thorwil> well, he didn't
<kwwii> it is a blatant attempt at rebranding, which we don't allow anyway
<kwwii> right, same thing
<kwwii> essentially, people should not be changing the logo
<kwwii> as that is breaking our trademark
<thorwil> kwwii: logocurved deleted. added comment on earthubuntu and will give the author the chance to read it and delete the page himself before i do it
<thorwil> i wonder if i should worry less about being seen as mean/elitist/control-freak whatever
<kwwii> thorwil: well, to some extent we do have to watch out for that..people get their feelings hurt easily
<kwwii> but as long as it is done correctly, and nicely, I do not see any harm in it, as it weeds out the less useful stuff
<macvr> thorwil: regarding the earth logo ... i dont like the logo... but  wouldnt the earth part looked a tad better is it didnt have the jagged edges?
<thorwil> macvr: sure, but why bother?
<macvr> just out of curiosity, to know whats wrong with something... so that i dont do similar mistakes :P
<thorwil> heh
<macvr> BTW whre is the curved karmic logo url?
<macvr> where^
<thorwil> macvr: it's gone
<macvr> already deleted?
<thorwil> yes
<macvr> aw... wanted to have a look at that too...  have you seen the new version of the devil smiley?
<thorwil> macvr: if you know the url of a deleted page, you can go there. the wiki tells you the page doesn't exist, but if you click on "Info", you get the history
<thorwil> macvr: like this one: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Karmic/UbuntuLogoCurved?action=info
<macvr> cool... didnt know that!
<thorwil> well, i researched that before i started deleting pages right and left ;)
<macvr> ... man you are picky :P
<macvr> but kinda good ...
<thorwil> macvr, michote the gradient on the devil emotes matches that of the yellow ones really well now
<macvr> yeah
<thorwil> the horns look like made form a slightly different material, though
<macvr> i like the glasses too, but maybe the mouth should be brown instead of green?
<thorwil> the teeth on devil-sad need a little shading
<thorwil> macvr: the mouth?
<macvr> for the face-glasses... he has used green for the mouth... that makes the smiley kinda have a green shade... felt if it was brown, i might be better?
<macvr> i/it/
<thorwil> macvr: oh, yes
<macvr> :)
<macvr> regarding the horns... how could he improve it?... have the red shade merge with the surrounding?
<thorwil> macvr: i though the mouth was almost-but-not-quite-black, but very neutral until you claimed it was green. but now in inkscape i see it's #24221cff
<thorwil> not green
<thorwil> macvr: i'd try copying the horn shape, make it a bit smaller, narrower, apply the brightest color from the face gradient and blur
<macvr> ^ this is why i had suggested to come to the irc...
<macvr> thorwil: only now i checked, the stroke is #082008ff , drak green... which kinda makes the whole thing feel green for me!
<thorwil> macvr: oh, you mean the dimple. yes, has a green tendency
<macvr> thorwil: also ... cory had asked me to make some changes with the 128 px smileys... i just seem to make them glossy... any suggestions how to make the right?
<macvr> thorwil: not the dimple... the mouth has the green stroke with the grey fill
<thorwil> macvr: the smilies i now see on the wiki are not glossy
<thorwil> not even close to
<thorwil> so i don't know what Cory wants there
<macvr> no the ones... the adjustments i make on my system, to improve them i just tend to get glossy, away from the feel of the wiki ones
<thorwil> macvr: you already made them. you know how to make them either way ;)
<macvr> i believe , i was just drawing your thoughts :P
<macvr> thorwil: http://files.getdropbox.com/u/1325768/smiley1.png ... this is the present WIP for smirk... any comments?
<thorwil> macvr: left eyes shape is freaky
<macvr> well for smirk... that seems to be how several smileys are done :(...
<macvr> thorwil: this is the gnome one http://files.getdropbox.com/u/1325768/face-smirk.png
<thorwil> macvr: try this as reference: http://www.solarnavigator.net/films_movies_actors/actors_films_images/Steve_Martin_famous_smirk.jpg
<macvr> how do i translate that!!!! you are kidding right!
<macvr> i think he is smiling rather than a smirk
<thorwil> macvr: no, not really. every normal smiley has at its core a real facial expression
<macvr> ^that is correct
<macvr> but smirk is a smug expression... its not a friendly smile, but rather a kinda "i know it better" smile
<macvr> thorwil: to smile in an affected, smug, or offensively familiar way <
<macvr> steve's smile is more pleasant to me :)
<thorwil> what can i say, it shows to be hard to find good material
<thorwil> http://harmonscottfineart.com/files/the-smirk.jpg
<thorwil> http://images.veer.com/IMG/TILL/CYI/CYI0300011_T.JPG
<macvr> i think i should do as you are doing... look at more faces, rather than how previous smileys were done...
<macvr> ^the last one was great... perfect
<thorwil> now this is really good: http://www.haven4gamerz.com/wp-content/gallery/lucy_pinder/pinder201600x1200.jpg
<thorwil> ooh, what was i looking for, again? ;)
<macvr> thorwil: i'm not sure where to look :P
<macvr> thorwil: do you have these images of facial expressions stored? or just google?
<thorwil> macvr: google. and bing, just to see how the differ
<thorwil> but i do have a collection of headshots
<macvr> thorwil: i like bing a lot ... especially for images it is awesome
<thorwil> macvr: well, the 3rd result for "smirk" contains a naked male butt ...
<macvr> the images zoom in... so dont have to waste time clicking for the pages
<thorwil> macvr: anyway, work with both eyes and the whole shapes, not just top part
<macvr> i dont get no butts!... maybe the results are more in sync with previous searches ;)
<thorwil> lol
<macvr> thorwil: ok... i'll work on that
<thorwil> macvr: i use the us version, because the german bing starts with less features. http://www.bing.com/?mkt=en-us
<macvr> i use the same... but still no butts for me... i now seriously think that search plays a part....
<macvr> if thats the web design ....cool
<thorwil> macvr: seriously? it can't in this case. my browser erases history and cookies each time i close it and this was my first visit to bing today
<macvr> just imagine if results were more triggered by previous searches, that the search would be so custom tuned
<macvr> thorwil: http://files.getdropbox.com/u/1325768/Screenshot-smirk%20-%20Bing%20Images%20-%20Mozilla%20Firefox.png ... i'm serious, they may be doing it in some way!
<thorwil> macvr: yes, there are such approaches to search. but if i would let them collect data for this, it could not lead to _male_ butts ;)
<macvr> maybe someone is miss using your sys... :P
<macvr> thorwil: could you post a screenshot? of your search? i'm really amazed how bing has done this...
 * macvr needs to research more into how BING do their search
<thorwil> let it be known that macvr explicitly asked for a screenshot containing what has been mentioned already and should not be described with any further words!
<thorwil> http://pic.piccdrop.com/i/c/1245268655.png
<macvr> haha
<macvr> thorwil: " ?q=smirk&go= " this is my query all i did was enter smirk and enter... i'm not sure how "go" got in there!
<macvr> yours is just smirk
<thorwil> of course
<macvr> thorwil: do you have any insite? how "go" was also in the query?
<thorwil> macvr: i'd be suspicious of your fingers
<macvr> thorwil:  try again ... but "go" is also one of the queries!
<macvr> tried^
<macvr> when i use the auto complete, "go" is not part of the query... but when i manually enter , "go" seems to be part of the query!
 * macvr needs to look into this
<thorwil> macvr: are you bored? ;)
<macvr> kinda more surprised , why this occurs....
<thorwil> http://abduzeedo.com/icons-designer-master-everaldo-coelho
<thorwil> good night!
<dashua__> knome: http://www.ubuntu-pics.de/bild/16643/screenshot_QFbcr3.png
<dashua__> Blue mod of Hanso, still in it's infancy
<dashua__> Hacking it up
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-06-18
<macvr> _MMA_: Hi... http://files.getdropbox.com/u/1325768/smiley1.png this my WIP smirk, this is the gnome smirk > http://files.getdropbox.com/u/1325768/face-smirk.png ...Check out the eyes... Do the eyes in mine look OK?
<dashua> http://www.ubuntu-pics.de/bild/16659/screenshot_l55gj8.png ; http://www.ubuntu-pics.de/bild/16658/screenshot_gd69Ds.png ; http://www.ubuntu-pics.de/bild/16656/screenshot_005_fe8Hg9.png
<dashua> Blue attempt is coming along
<macvr> _MMA_: busy? could you give feedback on my  ^
<macvr> _MMA_: also i'm a bit stumped about , what details to add 128px smileys ?
<macvr> thorwil:hi... did you clean up the breathe wiki too?
<thorwil> macvr: no, haven't touched it since a long time
<macvr> thorwil: some one has! how do i view historyof the wiki changes? a lot of the attachments are deleted!
<thorwil> macvr: the Info link
<thorwil> macvr: though i'm not sure how the attachments are handled
<thorwil> macvr: but if you see a lot of text links instead of images, that could be due to the wiki surge protection
<thorwil> aka let-us-make-good-use-of-the-wiki protection
<macvr> thorwil: info also shows the attachments history... Michote seems to have deleted!
<macvr> thorwil: isnt he new? should i send a mail regarding his inappropriate deletion of other s work?
<thorwil> macvr: he deleted other than his own submissions?
<macvr> yes! a lot of them... even andrew,s folder
<thorwil> macvr: if so, contact Cory. or send mail to michote and ask him what he was thinking, CCing Cory
<macvr> yeah... will do... thanx
<thorwil> macvr: as long as we can't be sure what happened, i would keep it off the list
<macvr> thorwil: check the this link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/BreatheIconSet/Submissions?action=info
<thorwil> yeah, did already
<macvr> so shall i send to list too?
<macvr> i hadnt backed up a couple of stuff!
<thorwil> macvr: no, mail to michote and Cory
<macvr> ok...
<thorwil> macvr: i guess you can just go back to a revision before the deletions and retrieve the attachments from there
<macvr> NO :(
<thorwil> macvr: ok, i see the wiki is a bit stuoid in that regard, but you can view the text revisions and get the images and svg right from the page
<thorwil> you just can't bring up the attachments list for any but the current rev
<macvr> i kinda think its probably ideal... not to over load the wiki with old unwanted stuff...
<thorwil> macvr: also, each ATTNEW has view anf get links ...
<thorwil> macvr: anyway, do keep backups and consider using version management at home
<macvr> but such new users being "helpful" is scary!
<macvr> yeah backups is good!
<macvr> :(
<thorwil> you could even open a bzr branch at launchpad
<macvr> ah... ! bzr seems too complicated... maybe when i have time , i'll look into it :)
<thorwil> macvr: it's dead simple, actually
<thorwil> things only get a little complicated with merging and stuff, but that never happens with a single user branch
<macvr> another thing... my "work" is too minuscule for a separate branch :P
<thorwil> macvr: no
<macvr> :)
<thorwil> there's no reason not to have a branch for just a text file or just 1 or a handful of icons
<macvr> oh... i didnt know that....
<macvr> maybe as i said when i have patience , i'll open one....  right now i figuring a way NOT to yell at michote in the mail :/
<dashua> SiDi: Sup mate?
 * dashua ponders updating to Karmic on his production machine
<dashua> It's running 10X better than Jaunty on my Dell Mini
<kwwii> anyone thinking about updating to a pre-release version should know that things can go horribly wrong (like when jaunty ruined my cd burner)
<dashua> Jaunty was rock solid apart from a few audio issues.  I started at A3.  The development versions are becoming very solid.
<dashua> Wow, no CD burner is not good.
<dashua> I did it for the netbook for the kernel and the intel improvements and it was definitely worth it.
<kwwii> the kernel wiped the firmware on my burner making it useless
<dashua> UNR and Compiz did not work at all together on Jaunty, Karmic is working good.
<dashua> Oh damn.  They really does suck.
<kwwii> funny thing is, it still works in windows
<dashua> Ha
<dashua> It's usually the other way around
<dashua> Hrm, where is this Mac-like OSX look we're going for described on the mailing list?
<macvr> ^ haha
<macvr> kwwii: there seems to be a problem with the download-them-all firefox extension and wiki... seems one member has deleted a lot of attachments by using it...!
<macvr> kwwii: i'v asked him to report to the mailing list with a list of all the pages he has used the plugin... maybe since you have the extension.. could you check out what the problem is and warn members not to use it..
<SiDi> dashua: fine, you ?
<SiDi> karmic a3 is out ?
<dashua> Good, weather is not good here
<dashua> A2 was just released not too long ago
<SiDi> weather is HOT here*
<SiDi> just back from buying ice cream  :D
<dashua> Rain :(
<dashua> I came up with a blue kwasi version of Hanso.  I actually liked it for about a day, now back to brown =/
<SiDi> kwasi ?
<dashua> http://www.ubuntu-pics.de/bild/16659/screenshot_l55gj8.png ; http://www.ubuntu-pics.de/bild/16658/screenshot_gd69Ds.png ; http://www.ubuntu-pics.de/bild/16656/screenshot_005_fe8Hg9.png
<dashua> Based on, hacked up version
<SiDi> it doesnt render good :(
<dashua> Blue is not for me =/
<kwwii> macvr: I cannot see any way that it can erase files from a wiki
<kwwii> I used it to download but it kept hitting the surge protection
<macvr> kwwii: i dont know how he did it... but i'v told him to provide more details to the mailing list... i think he is now tracing all the pages !
<kwwii> freaky
<kwwii> be sure the conversation makes it to the mailing list
<macvr> kwwii: But this could happen to everone using downthemall-oneclick.
<macvr> I found that if you click one pixel beside the real link and use right.click => downthmeall-oneclick,
<macvr> it will start mass downloading and will visit all delete-links (filtering it as a download link).
<macvr> ^that was his response
<kwwii> ouch
<kwwii> double ouch
<kwwii> yes, that deserves and email
<kwwii> and probably to more people than just this list
<macvr> kwwii: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/BreatheIconSet/Submissions?action=info check out this page... you can see his accidental deletions... he is now adding the images back again... and i told him to definitely report this to the mailing list
<kwwii> yeah, just read his email
<kwwii> nasty that
<kwwii> I just sent one telling people not to use it until we figure this out
<kwwii> thanks for bringing this to my attention
<macvr> np...
<kwwii> then again, it would be a great way to delete things without giving an explanation :p
<kwwii> Oops, your stuff is gone, if it was important, put it back up :p
<macvr> haha .. you evil man :P
<kwwii> ;)
<kwwii> time for a break, bbl
<michote> Hi
<macvr> michote: for the devil-smiley... the top color is good , but the bottom becomes too dark
<macvr> how many stops have you used for the red gradient?
<michote> which one?
<macvr> both use the same red color right?
<michote> the one of the backround and the horns yes
<Viper550> hey
<macvr> michote: i mean the face red gradient
<michote> macvr: I use 3 stops, the darkest is #901010ff
<macvr> delete the darkest
<macvr> michote: i just tried in my system... just deleting the  the darkest #901010ff , and leaving it as just 2 stops... makes the smileys bright... i feel this is better...
<michote> macvr: ok http://ubuntu-pics.de/bild/16684/face_devil_sad_WaOhGD.png
<macvr> michote: yup , this looks brighter... :)
<macvr> michote: for the horns, have you tried thorwil's suggestions?
<michote> macvr: I even made some coour-studys on glasses ;)
<michote> http://ubuntu-pics.de/bild/16685/face_glasses_dark_4sK2y1.png
<macvr> michote: i really like the glases... but dont know which to choose :P
<michote> macvr: yes, they use the facegradient now and blur on the outline and highlight
<macvr> michote: i think the dark blue glasses are better..
<macvr> michote: i think you misunderstood... he meant blur near the bottom , so that the horns merge with the face and there is no line
<macvr> shine of the version in the wiki was nice, this one the horn shine has too much blur
<michote> macvr: I didn't changed the blur of the shine
<michote> I used blur on the outline to get the mergeeffect but getting a schadow under the horn
<macvr> michote: check the 48px and 32px , the right horns have a second line! i think accidentally you have changed something
<michote> macvr: I'll upload a blue version to the wiki
<macvr> michote: even the 22px horn has that second line.... i think its the shadow from the back...
<michote> macvr: the 128px has it, as well, I used one to fit the blur outline of the base, the other i used with a little offset as a shadow
<thorwil> macvr: i actually meant blur for shading
<thorwil> horns look allright to me now
<thorwil> for the glasses, i'd pick bottom left. or something betwwen top left and bottom left
<michote> thorwil: something betwwen top left and bottom left would be like bottom right
<michote> I used dark red in bottom-left
<thorwil> hmm, seems to have a slight blueish shift
 * thorwil -> bicycle
<michote> macvr: So what? ;)
<michote> which glasses and should I change the horns once again?
<macvr> michote: back...
<macvr> michote: something wrong with my eyes! i see a shadow in the png but not in the svg!
<macvr> the glasses blue seems nice
<macvr> ^ the top left one
<michote> did you opend the svg or just in nautilus?
<michote> nautilus sometimes doesn't render everything in its preview
<macvr> i opened it in inkscape only now... which shows no double line of the right horn .... but in the wiki and also the one you have hosted i see double lines in the right horn!
<macvr> if you dont see it... ignore... i think i was looking at the LCD for tooooo long!
<Viper550> http://grub.gibibit.com/ ypuv
<Viper550> *you've seen this?
<macvr> michote: if you dont see the double line of the right horn in the 48,32,22px ignore it... and upload the new version
<macvr> Viper550: wow... looks nice
<macvr> But usplash does it well too
<Viper550> that's for grub 2
<macvr> maybe they'll add this for karmic... since they are using grub2
<michote> macvr: done
<macvr> michote: when you are doing artwork... it is sometimes helpful being on the irc... look out for thorwil , he is very helpful and one of the devs involved in breathe
<SiDi> and dont look out for sidi
<SiDi> he's a troll
<macvr> definately not SiDi :P
<michote> Ok, i'll be here more often ;)
<macvr> michote: But Cory is the main... his nick is _MMA_
<macvr> they might take time to respond , but be patient :)
<macvr> SiDi: what have you been upto besides remember when everyone eats? :P
<macvr> remembering^
<SiDi> What did the GIMP devs smoke when they decided a layer should have a height and a width instead of just using its alpha...
<michote> we definately need a face-raspberry in reathe
<SiDi> macvr: coding, lately
<SiDi> and not having the internet, too
<SiDi> and buying icecream
<macvr> michote: as i said already said... finishing the ones in the list first , then rest
<michote> ok, I'm on face-angel now
 * macvr suddenly has a craving for ice cream
 * SiDi hates gimp
<macvr> michote: for the rest of the smileys, here is the list> http://standards.freedesktop.org/icon-naming-spec/icon-naming-spec-latest.html#guidelines
<michote> thanks, but there're some different names than on submission (devilish, cool), it's like the gnom-icons
<michote> does anybody know a good referenz for a gloriole?
<SiDi> I wish the "align" tool of gimp could ALIGN my f***in layers
<macvr> michote: have you edited the appointment soon? my version
<michote> no I just downloaded the svg from the wiki and created a png from it using a nautilus-skript and uploaded it to the wiki
<macvr> michote: the png is fuzzy... !
<macvr> why are you using nautilus script?
<macvr> you can export from inkscape
<michote> yes, but I had to convert about 15 svg to png at once to restore all I deleted
<macvr> luckily i have a backup of that...
<michote> I used quality 100 in the script, but maybe its worse the export of inkscape
<macvr> did you use the script for the devil smileys too?
<macvr> michote: i'v re-uploaded my version of the appointment-soon
<michote> no, on the smileys I used the export of inkscpe
<michote> it was just on this accident on the wiki, I didn't want to open 15 svg, change the export path and export, when there is a script for it.
<michote> I didn't know that it is worse
<SiDi> How can i forbid gimp to draw the borders of layers ?
<macvr> SiDi: ^haha ... looks like GIMP is really p**sing  you off!
<SiDi> OH REALLY ?
<SiDi> aaaargh
<SiDi> how can i edit gradients Q_Q ?
 * SiDi seriously doesnt wonder why people pay for photoshop Q.Q
<IHateGimp> is it really impossible to have a gradient with THREE DAMN COLOURS ,
<michote> no, rightclick in the gradient editor and duplicat segment
<IHateGimp> but how to change the color of this segment ?
<SiDi> good night everyone
<kwwii> yeah, night all
<lamalex> Does anyone have time to make a mockup?
<lamalex> The ubuntu-us teams project is working on an interactive map for state locos, but the info popup is a little bit ugly and could use a designers touch
<lamalex> http://divajutta.com/doctormo/locomap/locomap-fill.svg <-- current
<MTecknology> lamalex: just fyi - it's the ubuntu-drupal team ;)
<lamalex> meh, whatever
<lamalex> doesn't really matter
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-06-19
<lamalex> some ubuntu team needs help. as always, technical people are design challenged. need the help of you wonderful people to make it beautiful
<Viper550> wow SVG can do that?
<lamalex> say goodbye to flash
<lamalex> the future is svg+javascript / html5
<lamalex> MTecknology: and doctormo have been kicking ass :)
<MTecknology> Viper550: I'm building the whole thing using php/sql
<kwwii> Viper550: wow, nice to see you still have the same nick
<kwwii> start working!
<kwwii> and now time for sleep
<thorwil> kwwii: morning! do you have experience with freelance jobs for clients outside the EU, or even specifically australia?
<kwwii> thorwil: well, I have done freelance jobs for non-eu people before, so yes
<kwwii> but not australia
<kwwii> although from a german perspective it doesn't matter where they are as long as they are outside of the eu
<kwwii> you won't have to pay mwst on what you earn from outside the EU :)
<thorwil> kwwii: cool. but could the job be taxable in the country of my client?
<kwwii> not for you, no
<kwwii> erm, although that depends on which country
<kwwii> in USA it probably would, I guess
<thorwil> well, my contact hopefully knows :)
<kwwii> let me ask someone I know who does a lot of contracting
<kwwii> I just talked to someone who has done several contracts for companies in australia and he told me that it was not a problem
<kwwii> there were no extra tax laws or such
<thorwil> kwwii: great, thanks!
<kwwii> n p
<michote> macvr: I uploaded a face-angel
<michote> macvr: do you want to have all the (open) mouths in lightbrown now?
<raozuzu> michote: what are you talking about? :)
<michote> raozuzu: breathe-smileys ;)
<raozuzu> uh... thnx you ;)
<raozuzu> how is going the whole work?
<michote> raozuzu: I'm just working on the smileys, but you can take a look at the wiki
<raozuzu> you're right :P I'll take a look ;)
<macvr> michote: looks good... but not sure about the blush...  lets see what Cory says... i think he might reply this week end... so you can wait before editing...
<michote> macvr: ok, we'll see.
<michote> macvr: did your comment refer to the mouths, too?
<raozuzu> mmm the mouse pointer theme would be the jimmac's one also in KK?
<macvr> michote: you can edit the mouths similar to the surprise and add as a second version, let both be on the wiki
<michote> michote: ok
<thorwil> michote: really nice job on the halo. i think the blush is a nice touch
<michote> thorwil: thx ;)
<thorwil> michote: you should perhaps try to have the halo cast light onto the face
<thorwil> the shadow you have now does help to keep both objects apart, though
<michote> you mean changing the shadow into a shine?
<thorwil> michote: yes, though you might need to add a gap between halo and shine
<macvr> thorwil: i like the blush , but there seems to be something off!
<macvr> maybe if the circle was bigger and the fade was more gradual...
<thorwil> macvr: ack
<macvr> from the blush to the surrounding
<thorwil> michote: you could turn the dark strokes of the eyes into shapes and make them pointy at both ends. for the scalable size, only
<thorwil> or let them fade out to the sides a bit
<macvr> thorwil: isnt the 128 px, blush looking strong?
<thorwil> macvr: with ack i meant taht i agree with bigger and more gradual
<macvr> i know
<macvr> but i feel that the blush ... that blush makes the angel look like a cross dresser to me!
<macvr> maybe for the 128px, it could be lighter, more subtle
<thorwil> macvr: heh, don't you know that we market ubuntu to cross-dressers. too? ;)
<macvr> we can market , but angel?
<thorwil> +1 for more subtle. i still say it is a nice touch :)
<macvr> i too like the blush... but its just too strong
<macvr> michote: could you try the blush in a lighter shade?
<macvr> SiDi: have you looked into that file i sent?
<michote> yes, I'll will give it a try, I just was uploading glasses with a changed mouth ;)
<SiDi> err i was away
<macvr> SiDi: always very busy!
<macvr> thorwil: did you have a look at the smile 3rd version? does the cheek look wierd?
<thorwil> macvr: yes, it does
<macvr> ah!
<thorwil> macvr: it's too sharp
<SiDi> macvr: which line ?
<SiDi> oh crap thats js :(
<SiDi> macvr: im quite in a hurry right now, ping me about it tonight, okies ?
<macvr> SiDi: line222
<macvr> ok no prob
<SiDi>          body = body + subject + "\r\nfrom " + author + "\r\n"; ?
<thorwil> macvr: you should study how that looks in a real smile. there's a strong inward bend, so you would have darker shade to the sides of the mouth
<macvr> yup
<SiDi> try this
<SiDi> \r\n instead of " ,"
<SiDi> or try to actually go to next line
<macvr> thorwil: i tried making it less sharp... but t just didnt work out!
<SiDi> subject + "
<SiDi> blabl"
<SiDi> see you later people
<thorwil> macvr: the highlights shouldn't be right next too the lines
<thorwil> macvr: the high point of the cheecks would be elsewhere
<macvr> oh ... ok
<macvr> thorwil: http://www.flickr.com/photos/everaldocoelho/3588311497/sizes/m/ i tried making it like this!
<macvr> i think i need to edit the stops...
<thorwil> macvr: the whole lighting is different there
<macvr> thorwil: that wont look good here?
<thorwil> he seems to assume 3 light sources. and there is glow
<macvr> ah... !
<macvr> so the shine MUST be higher for this one
<macvr> i kept feeling something was of!!!
<thorwil> macvr: http://www.live-wintersport.com/thumb_uc_5394_540_Bill_Demong_(USA_Kombi)_with_smile.jpg
<thorwil> macvr: maybe it helps if the think of the mouth as a shape on a vertical cylinder (think of the u-shape of the teeth)
<thorwil> the cheeks are like balls that are pushed to the sides and up by the smile
<macvr> thorwil: i think i'm just going to remove the shine :P
<macvr> i'll try though... :)
<macvr> thorwil: doesnt this look ok...  http://files.getdropbox.com/u/1325768/smiley6.png
<kwwii> note that the line around the outside gets pixelated at all of the smaller sizes you show
<macvr> the smaller sizes doesn have the cheek lines...
<macvr> doesnt^
<macvr> oh you mean the 48,32?px
<macvr> kwwii: ^
<kwwii> well, i was only talking about the line around the outside of the whole thing
<kwwii> it looks pixelated on all of the smaller sizes on my screen
<macvr> :(
<macvr> i'll see what i can do...
<kwwii> either make the line bigger on the smaller sizes or less visible
<thorwil> macvr: it might look ok, but not exactly good
<macvr> thorwil: :P ...
<kwwii> and make sure the circles are on a pixel grid
<macvr> thorwil: i'll try adding the shine...
<macvr> kwwii: ok...
<thorwil> macvr: i think the problem is that you leave the realm of printed-on-the-surface, but only so slightly and in a limited area. so the whole things falls apart a bit
<macvr> kwwii: actually there is a black shadow below the line... is that waht is causing the pixelation effect?
<thorwil> macvr: so you need to either get the surface modeling right and applied on a broader area, or you need to go back to the just-printed-on look
<macvr> thorwil: ah... i'll first try with the surface modelling...
<kwwii> macvr: essentially it is the fact that a thin line is showing which does not look good with the anti-aliasing
<kwwii> so it is a matter of size, transparency and placement
<macvr> kwwii: ok... i'll correct it
 * kwwii gets lunch soon
 * macvr hates faces :P ... easier while working on inanimate objects
<SiDi> crappy residence
<SiDi> they just opened the laundry instead of at 9 am and now i dont have enough time to wash my clothes... >_<
<macvr> SiDi: never picked you as a clean guy!
<macvr> :P
<SiDi> meh
<SiDi> i got enough clean clothes for a good week yet
<SiDi> but still
<thorwil> what? i'm sure SiDi usually sparkles!
<SiDi> that pisses me off
<SiDi> cause i'll have to do it monday before or after work
<SiDi> and i wont have clean sheets when ill be back sunday
<SiDi> which sucks even more
<macvr> SiDi: see there is a down side to having toooo much action!
<SiDi> c'mon, i had PLAIN TIME for this this morning
<SiDi> but they had to open it at 2 PM
<SiDi> after i asked twice
 * SiDi is upset
<macvr> thorwil: do you have any of Oliver's work [links] ?
<macvr> the bird he had done for the stamp was awesome...
<thorwil> macvr: nope
<macvr> :(
 * thorwil goes for a walk
<kwwii> we should get in touch with mma, I am sure he has some of this somewhere
<macvr> kwwii: ^ was that regarding Oliver?
<kwwii> macvr: well, about getting the missing images back online
<macvr> i think michote has restored the png...
<macvr> of all the files
<macvr> i was asking for the links ... just to analyze his work.. :)
<kwwii> ahh, cool
<kwwii> just want to make sure that nothing gets lost accidentaly
<macvr> kwwii: michote had convert the svg to png en bulk using the nautilus script, so some didnt look good, those i recognized as bad quality , i restored from the ones i had downloaded, also warned the other members via a mailing list so that they too could check  ...
<kwwii> cool
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-06-20
<dashua> kwwii: Do you need any help with Karmic's theme or are things going to remain pretty much status quo until 10.04?
<dashua> I'd be more than happy to hack around in my free time. :)
<macvr> guys... has anyone seen this?  http://pinstack.blogspot.com/2009/06/13-things-to-get-excited-for-in-ubuntu.html
<macvr> there is a lot of hype about the new theme... which should be nipped in the bug... otherwise a lot of disappointed souls :(
<macvr> the origin is mostly from Marks's comment that a new theme/color will be used in Karmic, which i dont think is gonna happen till karmic+1
<kwwii> macvr: although nobody said it directly it was understood that a new theme would come but there is not going to be a new theme for karmic
<kwwii> we are working on the basis for new theming but we want to get it right
<kwwii> so the planning took longer than expected
<macvr> kwwii: actually , Mark has said there will be a new color they "might" use in karmic...  i too have read this some where, but not able to find the link... but also mark has said on the wiki irc interview log that it might be karmic+1 , but this second change doesnt seem to have reached many...
<macvr> kwwii: maybe you could blog about it?
<macvr> let me see if i can search my history, for the links... :)
<kwwii> macvr: well, mark said it would happen and then took that back in another post so it is confusing
<kwwii> also, I have been working on a new theme myself...so maybe there will be something different in karmic but it will not be default
<macvr> maybe someone cold clear it up :) , we dont want to disappoint anyone,do we ;P
<macvr> could^
<macvr> oh!
<macvr> kwwii: links for the theme? so that i could test it out?
<kwwii> at this point it is little more than pictures
<kwwii> but I have a good idea how I am going to make it
<macvr> :)
<darkmatter> as long as it's not wood grain we won't have to kill ya
<thorwil> already: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Website/KarmicCountdownBanners
<SiDi> you didnt upload the svg ?
<thorwil> SiDi: the guy who put up that page didn't think of adding the attachment. the text is just from last time. good thing you notice :)
<SiDi> i see :D
 * thorwil decides to quickly adjust the template
<thorwil> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Website/KarmicCountdownBanners?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=countdown_09-10_template.svg
<thorwil> hooray for cloned copies!
<macvr> thorwil: so it was your banner they used for jaunty... i liked that one... was nice :)
<thorwil> macvr: thanks :)  the last 2, even
<macvr> oh... i particular like the last one... it was a "kinda" futuristic design :)
<thorwil> i already started to think about the next one. i wonder if i could pull off something with photography. though that is bound to be time consuming
<macvr> i hope your energy is directed more towards a new background ... its used more than a 30 day banner
<thorwil> yes, but the countdown banners are great fun and i have a very high chance of being picked again, totally unlike the background situation
<macvr> :P
<macvr> thorwil: http://files.getdropbox.com/u/1325768/Screenshot-4%20-%20File%20Browser.png <<<what is the icon label for the mime below?
<macvr> i'm just not able to find it!
<thorwil> macvr: no clue
<macvr> thorwil: do you like that behavior? it is the mime which shows , during the wait time for the preview to load
<macvr> i'm thinking of editing one for breathe
<thorwil> macvr: i rarely get to see that. i think it's fine
<macvr> me too... i had a tought ime getting that screenshot :P... but while videos are loading the preview it shows for a bit longer... so i feel the transparent appearance gives it a incomplete feel
<macvr> tough^
<macvr> found it /usr/share/icons/gnome/.../status/gnome-fs-loading-icon :)
<thorwil> :)
<macvr> thorwil: have you seen madsRh's branding mail? doesnt it seem a bit too loud?
<macvr> i thought of sending a comment about it , but didnt ...
<thorwil> macvr: well, it's not exactly elegant to plaster ubuntu branding all over the place
<macvr> thats true... but isnt the branding being considered or is it a proposal? also instead of the gnome logo ubuntu's logo wouldnt hurt...but what do you think is wrong with that card?
<macvr> thorwil: i didnt like the dark blue, it kinda hurt my eyes :( , felt the blue from the gnome was more pleasant
<thorwil> macvr: i didn't look that closely. sometimes i decide to just not care
<macvr> :P
 * macvr hopes thorwil cares a little bit more about ubuntu :P
<thorwil> macvr: pay me and i would ;p
<macvr> i vote for thorwil being inducted into canonical
<macvr> thorwil: i think SABDFL will pay more than me
<macvr> :P
<thorwil> macvr: already tried that route
<macvr> thorwil: ah... well their loss :/
<SiDi> the cards dont need SPECIFIC branding | they just need to look decent enough for "end user" to dare clicking them :)
<macvr> ^ +1
<macvr> SiDi: well as Scott  pointed out... ayatana runs the show in a lot of things
<SiDi> ayatana has grown so big in the past weeks that i can barely follow now
<SiDi> ill try to cross-read that whole update-manager essay tonight and resume it in a wiki page
<SiDi> (i hope noone did yet)
<macvr> thorwil: inkscape question: i find that when copying between 2 svg images , if i open the svgs separately , i cannot copy paste among each other, but if i open the second svg from the menu of the first svg, i'm able to copy paste , is this the intended behavior or am i doing something wrong?
<thorwil> macvr: inkscape is a little broken regarding copy-paste. i usually use Import
<macvr> oh... ok... i'v never tried import, will try it... :)
<macvr> thorwil: i totally forgot... did you check the 2nd version of the emblem unreadable...? i made it symmetrical , does it look better now?
<thorwil> macvr: the angles in the 1st look better. so if could combine similar angles with symmetry, that would be best
<macvr> yeah i like the first one too...
<macvr> thorwil: both are symmetrical, you can cut them in any plane
<macvr> i mean vertical and hori :P
<thorwil> macvr: why did you imply it wasn't, then?
<macvr> maybe you forgot... the first version i had done , i took it down , you said that the X didnt look  symm ,
<macvr> thats y
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-06-21
<thorwil> http://doctormo.wordpress.com/2009/06/20/seotch-and-cquels-wallpapers/
<raozuzu> thorwil: ahah... kawaii wallpapers xD
<thorwil> ^^
<raozuzu> thnx fot he link :P
<macvr> thorwil: hi... which do you like better >  http://files.getdropbox.com/u/1325768/smiley6.png ... http://files.getdropbox.com/u/1325768/smiley7.png ... http://files.getdropbox.com/u/1325768/smiley8.png  ...?
<macvr> ^this is for the face-kiss
<thorwil> macvr: lips of 6. the others look obscene :)
<thorwil> but eyelids of 7
<macvr> me too , liked the lips of 6  , but wasnt sure if it looked like a kiss...
<macvr> i'll complete the rest with your suggestions :)
<thorwil> macvr: well, the other don't make it look more like a kiss
<macvr> ah... anyway, i'll use 6
<thorwil> i hope this is a real contact: http://images.quickblogcast.com/1/4/9/2/1/110591-112941/istockphoto_1859863_mouth_print_kiss.jpg
<macvr> i'll try to get it in that shape... thanx...
<thorwil> looks a bit scary: http://storage.bestpicture.lumobox.com/55/1810_detail_545_w.jpg
<macvr> ^yeah it does look scary !
<thorwil> http://www.rocktheschools.com.au/Portals/0/Skins/rocktheschools/bands/claireclarke/Shut-Your-Mouth-with-Claire-Clarke.jpg
<macvr> thorwil: the last one was a better guide...the prob is... if i get too realistic, then cory will want me to do the same for the rest :P
<thorwil> macvr: wrong thinking. do your best. why would anything less be worth your time?
<macvr> ah.... :)
 * _MMA_ notes that, he sees all. ;)
<kwwii> wow, things are just going crazy here
<kwwii> oh well...see you tomorrow...sleep....................
<_MMA_> night Ken
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-06-21
<kwwii> hey all
<knome> hello kwwii
<vish> hey hey..
<thorwil> hey ho, hey ho
<vish> thorwil: beware knome might pull out the urban dictionary ;)
<thorwil> vish: santa saw grandmother, mother and daughter and said: ...
<knome> ;)
<thorwil> knome can pull out the urban dictionary, but you can't pull knome out of the urban dictionary!
<knome> har har
<thorwil> well, actually: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=knome
<thorwil> http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=har+har
<knome> o.O
<knome> did not know about that :P
<thorwil> that's what i would claim, too
<knome> though it seems that it has more downs than ups
<knome> so doesn't seem like a used onw
<knome> *one
<knome> though my wife might agree on the first sentence
<knome> :P
<thorwil> lol
<thorwil> does http://www.thorsten-wilms.com work for anyone, i.e. not redirect to google?
<knome> does
<knome> Thorsten Wilms Design Solutions
<knome> This is just a test.
<thorwil> excellent, thanks!
<knome> np
 * thorwil looks at his dns server suspiciously
<kwwii> thorwil: works for me
<thorwil> seems just the open dns server i use is slow to catch up
<thorwil> google made me create a very odd cname entry to confirm that i own the domain, before i could associate it with my app engine site
<thorwil> ah, now it catched up here, too
<Cimi> finally my server is back :) got an hdd failure for a thunderstorm
<kwwii> ouch
<kwwii> that sucks
<Cimi> kwwii: I was smart, I had two separate hdd for OS and data, so my data is safe :)
<kwwii> hehe
<thorwil> 13 notification mails tell me that Iain put some work into updating https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuFreeCultureShowcase
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-06-22
<coz_> alkd
<zniavre> good afternoon . does notification can be themed with 1px border ?
<zniavre> as tooltip *
<kwwii> zniavre: I do not think so, let me check
<zniavre> kwwii,  bonjour , i tried so many things i think it is not possible easily
<kwwii> zniavre: yes it is possible
<kwwii> bg[SELECTED] sets the outline colour
<kwwii> but it doesn't look very nice wÃ­th too much contrast
<zniavre> for the notification bubble?
<zniavre> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/187396/screenshot1.png
<zniavre> (it s colorfull just for "test" )
<thorwil> zniavre: that should be default!! red on green is optimal for reading
<kwwii> zniavre: erm, no for the tooltips
<kwwii> zniavre: for notifications you cannot add a line around it
<zniavre> ok thank you i can now stop trying to do it ...
<zniavre> thorwil, it's just the easiest way i hav found to know exactly wich option colors one widget
<thorwil> zniavre: sure. i tend to do the same when in doubt, both on the few cases of messing with gtkrc and my more common fighting with css :)
<zniavre> :o)
<thorwil> "Resizing windows by grabbing window borders is difficult" is my favorite bug thread, now
<jussi> thanks kwwii!
<kwwii> jussi: np
<kwwii> btw, if you are still looking for a logo perhaps someone in this channel would be interested in helping? I never seem to find the time
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-06-23
<thorwil> kwwii: hi! the free culture showcase wiki page could benefit from a TOC
<kwwii> thorwil: heya
<kwwii> thorwil: good idea, wanna add that?
<kwwii> ivanka said it was a great idea :-)
<thorwil> arg, why oh why? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Concepts/Unity
<zniavre_> you do not like this theme ?
<thorwil> zniavre_: i just don't see the point in creating such a placeholder page. especially if i have to wonder if it's in the right place
<thorwil> kwwii: actually, i poked you to not do it myself, but now i did ;)
<thorwil> the ubuntu-web effort on templates seems to go well, but nobody is on the wiki, right?
<kwwii> thorwil: killer thanks
<kwwii> right, we haven't gotten there yet
<kwwii> hey thorwil, can I send you a gimp pallete file to test in inkscape?
<kwwii> I am making palettes with the new colours and it seems to kill my inkscape
<kwwii> I cannot figure out why though
<thorwil> kwwii: sure
<kwwii> it works fine in gimp but seems to crash inkscape
<thorwil> i have whatever is in lucid plus 0.48pre1
<kwwii> not sure where that Ubuntu palette came from
<kwwii> not from us
<kwwii> I will talk to ted about removing it from inkscape
<thorwil> kwwii: works with 0.48pre1. 7 swatches, the first is None
<thorwil> kwwii: no problem with Lucid's 0.47, either
<thorwil> kwwii: don't you have to create 2 palettes for screen and print?
<kwwii> thorwil: thanks for testing, it keeps killing my inkscape here...yes, I need to correct the column number
<kwwii> thorwil: yeah, I was thinking about making one with cmyk and usch
<kwwii> suh
<kwwii> such
<kwwii> really, we need one palette which has all the info :-)
<Viper550> hey
<coz_> has darkmatter been around???
<Viper550> nope
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-06-24
<Viper550> Is there a quote icon in breathe?
<thorwil> good morning!
<kwwii> thorwil: guten morgen
 * thorwil had quite a bit of vuvu in the neighborhood yesterday evening
<kwwii> thorwil: I can imagine
<thorwil> people are suddenly so musical. enough for a single note and no discernible rhythm :)
<kwwii> lol, it's like the samba groups
<kwwii> there is always one idiot with a whistle
<zniavre> :o)
<knome> kwwii, lol :D
<Hund> Im having problem with a Murrine theme. Im trying to use a image for the "Active" (?) function, like when someone sends me a message via Pidgin the button should change image, for now the text just gets bold. My panel.rc file: http://pastebin.com/nawLVJZK
<zniavre> Hund,  did you try prelight instead of active ?
<Hund> zniavre: Im not a experienced user at the coding part. So I have no clue what youre meaning. :P
<zniavre> ho sorry, but i do not know if what you want is possible easily
<kwwii> Hund: you need to use the pixmap engine if you want to load an image
<Hund> kwwii: Okey. Im almoust finished with the theme, the other images are working but I cant get that function to work. The image only appeare (and starts fading as it should) once I hovered my mouse.
<kwwii> hrm
<kwwii> not sure if you can do what you want with changing code
<Hund> kwwii: It works with other themes. But it will do with a color to. I just dont want a bold text, its easy to miss it if you have like 1 billion windows on the panel. :)
<vish> Hund: you can specify text style
<Hund> vish: The text is fine. I want some kind of background to. pixmap or color doesnt really matter.
<vish> oh..
<thorwil> holy shit: http://alittlebitweird.com/_blog/The_A_Little_Bit_Weird_Blog/post/Amazing_What_You_Can_Do_With_A_Ball-Point_Pen/
<kwwii> wow
<knome> nice, but i've seen similar stuff before
<knome> :|
<knome> after internet, not even internet can amaze you
<thorwil> knome: feeling desensitized today? i heard inhaling through the wide end of a vuvuzela helps
<knome> eww
<knome> i'm actually waiting to out of this city
<knome> oops, missed the verb
<knome> "get"
<thorwil> knome: where to?
<kwwii> mallorca!
<thorwil> i heard tuvalu is great if you like to swim
<knome> thorwil, countryside
<thorwil> knome: cool. does that involve some elk riding?
<knome> thorwil, no, i'm afraid
<thorwil> too bad
<knome> thorwil, grilling, sauna, swimming in a lake, boardgames, good company, maybe a beach...
<knome> hmm, must not forget beer
<thorwil> hmm, yeah, that sounds good
<knome> not much, but some
<thorwil> kwwii: i just saw ivanka added lilypond to the tools mentioned on the FCShowcase wiki page. isn't that a bit too removed from actually producing the stuff we want?
<thorwil> if not, i have someone who would like to see his pet project in there, too. http://www.denemo.org
<kwwii> thorwil: yeah, I kinda thought the same thing
<kwwii> thorwil: you might mention it to her :-)
<thorwil> would, if she was on irc.
<kwwii> or read her email :p
<thorwil> what, she does do that?
<knome> why in the earth has wacomcpl been removed from lucid
<thorwil> knome: there's no wacom-tools in lucid, seems to be have been merged in. linuxwacom dropped serial support for the version you need for the newer x-server
<thorwil> so i had a lot of fun finding about about that, to then build a patched driver module
<knome> lucid fails.
<doctormo> kwwii: Hello
<kwwii> doctormo: hi
<doctormo> kwwii: I figured we better stay in touch about the free culture show case on dA
<doctormo> kwwii: Thanks for the affiliation request
<kwwii> doctormo: indeed
<kwwii> doctormo: it seemed logical :-)
<kwwii> doctormo: I'd like to get the word out, going to blog about it and such
<doctormo> kwwii: Sorry I missed the UDS session, I think I was in another room.
<doctormo> kwwii: Otherwise I would have recommended just setting up a new gallery folder in the existing group.
<kwwii> doctormo: no worries, I think we have a good plan of attack, we just need to get the word out
<kwwii> doctormo: yeah, I thought about that but we need to be able to end the process, etc
<kwwii> maybe in the future that would be a better way to go
<doctormo> kwwii: How will you end the process in this instance?
<kwwii> doctormo: at some point in time we will cut off submissions and vote on the short-list
<kwwii> from which the finalists will be chosen
<kwwii> doctormo: essentially, we will run it like we did the flickr photo contest in the past
<doctormo> kwwii: I think I can show you how to set that up with just a gallery folder
<kwwii> hrm, I'd need to talk to ivanka about changes
<kwwii> I am afraid we've already announced it, etc
<kwwii> doctormo: the plus point of creating a gallery folder in #ubuntu-artists is that there are already members
<kwwii> doctormo: the down-side for Canonical is that we don't own that group
<kwwii> although generally speaking that should not be a problem :-)
<doctormo> kwwii: OK if you look at the galleries: http://ubuntu-artists.deviantart.com/gallery/
<doctormo> kwwii: I've set it up so that all the existing galleries are same, you have to be a member to submit to them and they get approved before going through.
<doctormo> But the new gallery folder is different, anyone can submit and they get automatically approved, 4 per day max.
<kwwii> hrm, the 4 per day is a limitation
<doctormo> kwwii: I can set it to anything, unlimited is also an option
<kwwii> doctormo: I think ideally we want to allow as many as possible to anyone
<kwwii> myself and others will have to patrol it daily
<doctormo> kwwii: That would be 4 per person, per day.
<kwwii> that sounds like enough
<kwwii> 4 per person is certainly enough, on a per day basis
<doctormo> But you could easily duplicate these settings for your new group, or I can make you an admin of the current group.
<kwwii> doctormo: but would you give us the rights to also control things?
<kwwii> doctormo: I have to cook dinner for my son, he is singing in the chior this evening....will you be online a bit later?
<doctormo> kwwii: Of course, you want control rights over just the folder or more than that, it's up to you, I know your accountable and you've signed the CoC right?
<kwwii> (and hour or so)
<doctormo> OK
<kwwii> doctormo: lol, yeah
<doctormo> I will be online
<kwwii> cool, I will ping you when I am back
<kwwii> thanks
<ivanka> hi doctormo
<ivanka> doctormo: it would be very cool if we could send up the Ubuntu Free Culture Showcase as a gallery in the ubuntu-artwork group
<ivanka> doctormo: kwwii mentioned
<doctormo> ivanka: Yep, we've got the basic thing there http://ubuntu-artists.deviantart.com/gallery/25667683
<ivanka> doctormo: I know it is within the ubuntu-artists group, but is it worth calling it the Ubuntu Free Culture Showcase gallery? For the purposes of talking about it etc?
<doctormo> ivanka: Of course, call the gallery what ever you like.
<ivanka> doctormo: do I have rights and the like?
<doctormo> Anyone can add to it, no one has to be a member of ubuntu-artists first, so it doesn't really matter how it's advertised.
<doctormo> ivanka: I've sent out admin invitations to you and kwwii now, you'll be able to manage the gallery and see various admin pages.
<ivanka> doctormo: thank you
<ivanka> I will update my blog post and wiki page
<kwwii> re
<thorwil> ivanka: good evening. i saw you added lilypond to the FCShowcase wiki page. i think it is a bit far away from the results that we want. rather for an optional step, not an immediate part of the workflow
<ivanka> thorwil: I just added it as a creative tool,  maybe we could make composing a sub-section of audio?
<thorwil> ivanka: if you want a long list and not just a few pointer to the most important tools
<thorwil> ivanka: also, i have to wonder if the tools should be spun off that page. we already have https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Documentation/Software , though that is admittedly a bit hidden
<ivanka> thorwil: The tools do make that page rather long
<ivanka> thorwil: so I think it would be better to make more of a big deal out of them somewhere else
<ivanka> thorwil: but I would like to keep lilypond
<thorwil> ivanka: ok, i'll add denemo to your lilypond :)
<ivanka> thorwil: ok :-)
<thorwil> ivanka: if you don't mind, i will take the tools and merge it them to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Documentation/Software. and afterwards look into moving the link in Documentation to the top
<ivanka> thorwil: that seems very sensible
<ivanka> thorwil: what are your thoughts on how we classify all the audio and video stuff?
<thorwil> ivanka: hmm, you'll see my thoughs once i moved stuff ;)
<ivanka> thorwil: :-)
<ivanka> thorwil: ok - I will leave you to weave magic
<coz_> has anyone seen darkmatter recently??
<knome> coz_, logs say last said something may 28th
<coz_> oooo
<coz_> hope he is ok
<knome> mmh
<doctormo> kwwii: Is this acceptable blog entry: http://doctormo.org/2010/06/24/free-culture-gallery/
<kwwii> doctormo: looks perfect
<doctormo> Published to the planet
<kwwii> excellent, thanks!
<doctormo> kwwii: Does this Culture Showcase have a theme?
<kwwii> doctormo: no, it can be anything and everything
<kwwii> well, within reason that is :p
<doctormo> kwwii: It helps to give people a prod with inspiration, so I've done this: http://ubuntu-artists.deviantart.com/blog/33090159/
<kwwii> doctormo: sounds good
<Viper550> hello
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-06-25
<Viper550> I finished up a fluxbb theme for the new ubuntu site stuff
<Viper550> hey
<alchamech> hello all iv just signed up to help
<jessew> alchamech: help is always appreciated.  what are you interested in doing?
<alchamech> art work, wallpapers and the like
<Viper550> I dod a website theme this week
<alchamech> im still kind of new but i love ubuntu
<jessew> cool.  (Note that I have *no* particular connection to the ubuntu-artwork team; I just lurk in the channel...)
<alchamech> lol ok
<jessew> alchamech: have you looked at the gnome-art site (I think it's called that), and posted any stuff there?
<alchamech> no i havent
<jessew> might be somewhere to start...
<Viper550> http://imgur.com/liVoS.jpg forum theme for the fluxbb-using locos
<alchamech> well ty jessew ill take a look now
<jessew> feel free to ask if you have questions!
<doctormo> hey alchamech, what kind of things do you do?
<thorwil> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgSI3IcyXhs
<thorwil> so, i edited https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Documentation/Software a bit
<thorwil> some nice fellow added MuseScore and even made a page for it: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MuseScore
<thorwil> kwwii: how do you fell about https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MuseScore ? maybe that should better be https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Software/MuseScore or even https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Documentation/Software/MuseScore ?
<kwwii> thorwil: well, I don't see anything that uses /software
<kwwii> sounds like an intersting app though
<Viper550> good mornin'
<RoNin___> Hi
<RoNin___> I'm looking for a user interface designer. I was thinking if approaching the designers behind ubuntu
<RoNin___> Can anyone help?
<hyperair> try #ayatana
<hyperair> this is the artwork channel, not the user interface channel.
<hyperair> i'm not sure how many of them are up for hire though.
<RoNin___> hyperair: Thanks, it's appreciated
<vish> thorwil: you are on gnome-shell list too, right?
<vish> .. fun times with the application list thread!  :D
<thorwil> vish: yes, but lately in straight to dev/null mode
<vish> thorwil: yeah , that thread i deleted all the messages! no use even reading it ;) every other month there is a thread about it!
<vish> thorwil: not sure what to think of mpt's absence from the gnome-* channels of late ..  o.0
 * darkmatter pokes vish
<thorwil> i'm so tired of the running-around-in-circles business
<vish> darkmatter: hey hey! you are alive :D
<darkmatter> have I missed anything interesting in my absence?
<vish> darkmatter: coz_ was looking for you ;)
<thorwil> darkmatter: coz_ missed you and started to worry. such drama!
<darkmatter> vish: well, I'm alive now. although teh hospital food almost killed me xD
 * thorwil types too slow
<vish> darkmatter: all fine now i hope?
 * darkmatter pokes coz_
<vish> coz_ and cozziemoto seem the same i guess ;)
<darkmatter> vish: yup. they're making me poke myself with needles (thankfully only 4 more days of that. it's bad enough that other people poke me with needles...), but everything back to normal after my chemo and 8 units of blood. lol
<vish> cool.
<vish> darkmatter: seen Unity?
<darkmatter> vish: been reading a bit on it. looking nice
<vish> darkmatter: thats what you get when you have all the different dock devs on the DX team :D
<darkmatter> :P
<coz_> vish,  yes cozziemoto   is my "scrollback" nick on my other machine:)
<coz_> darkmatter,  hey guy
<coz_> darkmatter,   I was wondering where you disappeared to :)
<darkmatter> coz_: I was having my juicy red sludge replaced :P
<coz_> darkmatter,  oh ok ...yuk :)
<darkmatter> it was one of those supply couldn't meet demand thingies. didn't have enough heathy bone marrow left after the last round of chemo to efficiently produce blood. but I do now. G-CSF <3
<darkmatter> coz_: now I get to poke myself with needles. yay...
<coz_> darkmatter,   yuk again :)   i was just glad to hear you are ok
<darkmatter> coz_: indeed I am. all thanks to this lovely stuff I jack myself up on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Granulocyte_colony-stimulating_factor :)
<coz_> darkmatter,  wow
<darkmatter> my blood is now healthier than most healthy people :O
<coz_> :)
<darkmatter> I was leanish to begin withthe hospital stay made me so skinny I rediscovered muscle groups I almost forgot I had ;D
<darkmatter> still haz a slight beer gut, but I has ripples. o_O
<darkmatter> meh. two and a half hours until I stab myself in teh tummy again
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-06-26
 * thorwil enables "window-visible" for rhythmbox via gconf-editor and hopes the start-up-hidden bullshit goes away
<darkmatter> rhythmsucks
<thorwil> i only picked it up for streaming radio
<thorwil> does anyone here know how to reliably turn a node in inkscape to one where both bezier handles maintain same distance from the node?
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-06-27
<thorwil> VUVUUUUUUU!
#ubuntu-artwork 2011-06-21
<coz_>  ok ,, need to break here,, be back later
#ubuntu-artwork 2011-06-22
<coz_>  guys I have to break here,,, be back later
<thorwil> always so action-packed until coz has to break
<vish> thorwil: lol!!
<vish> thorwil: i think he uses the 'send message to all channels'..
<thorwil> of course he does
<thorwil> evacuate this channel, leave it to bots!
<Islington> you all seen this:http://cloud.ubuntu.com/2011/06/graphics-ninjas-invited-to-help/ vish thorwil
<vish> Islington: yea, but I've already got my hands full :s
<vish> Islington: probably a good topic to hit the ML..
<Islington> same, would be nice if some details were given
<vish> yea, just says "graphics"
<Islington> [13:57] <kim0> I'm looking for someone to contribute front page images to cloud.ubuntu.com
<Islington> [13:57] <kim0> see the current static image ..
<Islington> [13:57] <kim0> hopefully this can be a slider with a few images behind it ..
<Islington> [13:58] <kim0> those are the ones that need to be created
<Islington> [13:58] <Islington> http://cloud.ubuntu.com/wp-content/themes/uecv2/images/main_bg.png
<Islington> [13:58] <Islington> ^ like that?
<Islington> [13:58] <kim0> and I would expect an update rate of like 1 image per month max
<Islington> [13:58] <kim0> Yeah
<Islington> [13:58] <kim0> that one
<Islington> [13:58] <kim0> except different ideas and topics of course
<Islington> vish: ^
<vish> ah!
<vish> thx..
<vish> seems like something folks can do when they come up with new ideas or stuff..
<vish> probably be good to gather the topics and then go crazy..
<Islington> vish: topics have yet to be decided it seems
<vish> :s
<vish> Islington: what could be done is try to pick the topics from the blog posts till now and then expand for future topics
<vish> trying*
<Islington> vish: gonna go ahead and post in on the list. who knows maybe someone will bite
<vish> awesome!
#ubuntu-artwork 2011-06-23
<thorwil> marcushaslam: hi! sladen's and my mails from 14th? regarding http://thorwil.wordpress.com/2011/06/12/ubuntu-friendly-logo-4/
 * stoerenungeheuer is back (gone 00:01:06)
 * stoerenungeheuer is away: beschaeftigt/busy/away---leave-a-message
<etneg> hi
<etneg> does ubuntu need artists?
<etneg> not digital
<etneg> like sketch/concept guys
<thorwil> etneg: hold on
<thorwil> etneg: have a look at http://cloud.ubuntu.com/2011/06/graphics-ninjas-invited-to-help/
<thorwil> etneg: i'm about to log off, Islington and vish are the best people to talk to in this matters
<thorwil> etneg: and DanRabbit if you are interested in Elementary
<coz_> all
<coz_> hey all
<etneg> thanks
<etneg> ok
<etneg> thats all graphic work though
<etneg> DanRabbit: there?
<DanRabbit> etneg: what's up?
<etneg> oh thorwil said to talk to you
<etneg> doyou guys need someone who can do art stuff on paper
<etneg> ?
<etneg> like for concepts,
<etneg> sketches
<etneg> cloud.ubuntu.com wants a graphic person
<DanRabbit> etneg: hm I don't know about Ubuntu, but for elementary we were talking recently about designs for cool swag :D
<etneg> whats elementary
<etneg> i mean do you need concepts for it in pencil?
<etneg> if so what sort of theme
<etneg> so..
<etneg> guess elementary wont need me:P
 * etneg will see if ubuntu does
<etneg> DanRabbit: so would you need pencil concepts?
<DanRabbit> etneg: sorry I have a lot of conversations going on. elementary is the team of individuals who are working on the Pantheon desktop environment as well as elementary OS (and Ubuntu DE spin like Kubuntu or Xubuntu)
<DanRabbit> etneg: you can check out our website here: www.elementaryos.org
<etneg> i did
<DanRabbit> any sort of designs would be appreciated :) We were just thinking of some merchandise concepts to support the developers.
<etneg> but i didnt an idea of what designs
<etneg> get *
<etneg> do you have an example
<DanRabbit> of merchandise? http://shop.canonical.com/
<etneg> oh so you need ideas for merchandise?
<etneg> but sketches?
<DanRabbit> um I dunno, why not skteches? :p
<etneg> that would be weird for just merchandise
<etneg> :D
<DanRabbit> I'm really not sure how else to apply sketch art, unfortunately
<etneg> i mean 5 mins at the most to sketch?
<etneg> well for instance for fedora i do the concepts and sketches for their wallpapers and banners
<etneg> something along those lines
<etneg> they basically turn sketch art to digital art
#ubuntu-artwork 2011-06-24
<DanRabbit> oh yea that could be interesting
<etneg> the sketching part is just the concept
<etneg> the rest their coloring team does it
<etneg> and i just give pointers
<DanRabbit> well if you have something specific you want to work on, we're always open to contributions :)
<DanRabbit> I just can't think of the applications off the top of my head :P
<etneg> ah ok
<etneg> :D
<etneg> i dunno if there's a theme or you need artwork for a concept im all yours
<coz_> etneg,  jump in,, best way to do it
<etneg> coz_: yeah but with what in mind?
<etneg> :D
<coz_> etneg,  well not sure,, talking with danrabbit is I guess the best starting point,,, not sure who on the team there does digital from sketches
<etneg> ah ok
<etneg> yeah hes not sure either
<coz_> etneg,  with enough information in the sketch it shouldnt be too difficult
<etneg> yeah but without a theme its kinda pointless just sketching away
<coz_> well..depending on if it is an image or th eme
<coz_> etneg,  ah never pointless,, sketch daily,, makes for good technique :)
<etneg> i sketch daily :D
<coz_> excellent :)
<etneg> just doing this on the side to take a break from the real sketching
<etneg> :D
<coz_> etneg,  I understand that,, I stopped doing real artwork a while ago,,, I live in the US  ,, not much going on here in my opinion
<etneg> oh sure there is
<etneg> i recently sold a piece for 1200
<etneg> well i make a living outta doing art mostly
<coz_> etneg, oh?  where are you located?
<etneg> US too, in ny
<coz_> ah
<coz_> etneg,  mmm,, what type of work do you do?
<etneg> pencil sketches
<coz_> etneg,  ah grphite is excellent medium :)
<etneg> ye
<etneg> :D
<coz_> etneg,  I used to like conte crayon a lot  and pencil
<etneg> i use mostly graphite
<coz_> etneg,  here is some of my old sketches   /www.flickr.com/photos/coz_
<etneg> not too bad, pretty good anatomy
<etneg> http://i51.tinypic.com/15dkk78.jpg the most recent work i sold
<coz_> etneg,  I also love india ink
<etneg> ye i do some pen an ink work but moslty doodle stuff
<coz_> etneg,  almost  trompe l'oeil
<etneg> oh i dunno
<etneg> reddit said it was photorealistic enough .. i said ok
<coz_> etneg,  that is generally  translated as   "fool the eye"
<etneg> i know
<etneg> buti dont do tromp l'oeils
<etneg> i just do what i see
<coz_> etneg,  understood
<coz_> etneg,  time consuming ...yes?
<etneg> oh  this piece?
<etneg> 2 weeks if i did everyday
<etneg> but overall took a month
<coz_> etneg,  yep sounds about right
<coz_> etneg,  india ink tends to lead me into non representational work
<etneg> im not a big fan of pen n ink besides doing sort of abstrct stuff
<etneg> i used to like it to do draw architecture
<etneg> but since i dont find it photorealistic enough to render i stopped
<coz_> etneg,  understood,, on the second page of that post  I did some ink stuff but always non representational
<etneg> btw you said its like trompe l oeil
<etneg> or almost
<etneg> i dont have any real element placed there or anything
<etneg> the whole thing is a sketch
<etneg> ye i saw
<coz_> etneg,  well its more how the viewer sees the work,,, money  regardless drawn well enough to appear real
<coz_> I would call that almost trompe l"oile
<coz_> oeil
<etneg> ah ok
<etneg> http://i52.tinypic.com/167m69w.jpg
<etneg> old work like a yr ago
<coz_> etneg,  ok that is a nice sketch  not close to trompe l'oeil :)
<etneg> na
<coz_> etneg,  what graphite densities are you using
<etneg> wasnt intended to
<etneg> that sketch i aimed for only transparency in the petals
<etneg> once i achieved that i wrapped it up quick
<coz_> ah ok
<etneg> the big petal
<etneg> is not great
<etneg> that was a quick hack
<etneg> :P
<coz_> etneg,  are you using different densities?  2b  9 b  etc
<etneg> ye 8b 7b 6b
<coz_> ah ok
<etneg> 4b
<etneg> 2f
<etneg> 4h
<coz_> 4h  oo nice and hard :)
<etneg> tortillons
<etneg> tissue
<etneg> camois
<etneg> chamois
<etneg> i hate the hard pencils
<etneg> but its good for light shading
<etneg> im moving to mechanical these days to get more detail
<coz_> etneg,  they are nice for very light gradations
<etneg> the money sketch was all using wooden pencil
<coz_> etneg,  see I moved to graphite sticks for less detail :)
<etneg> had it been in mechanical it would have been better
<etneg> na i want details:D
<etneg> http://i53.tinypic.com/2dl6mpu.jpg
<etneg> thats the recent pen n ink work
<coz_> nice
<etneg> doodles
<coz_> also tedious work,,
<etneg> compared to the pencil?
<coz_> etneg,  I think I prefer  the splat  and resolve  the splat  with washes :)
<etneg> not a lot
<etneg> oh abstract
<coz_> etneg,   well pen an ink  always struck me as tedious to work with
<etneg> heh i stay away from abstrac unless its digital
<etneg> the bones you did are something i like
<coz_> etneg,  well I use the     "splat" method to keep me on my toes for composition
<etneg> good shading
<etneg> good outlining
<coz_> etneg,  that was done with solid grahpite pencils  no wood  but just graphite
<etneg> used th edges to draw the lines?
<etneg> i have some solid graphite here but i hate the messyness
<etneg> like charcoal,
<coz_> etneg,  I  try to keep composition of line in mind when working with graphite
<coz_> etneg,  I detest ,, hate,, spit on charcoal lol
<etneg> charcoail is great for creating a tone
<etneg> if you have the patience
<coz_> etneg,  these solid grphite pencils have a laquer  outside
<etneg> and dont mind messyness
<coz_> etneg,  they look similar to this  http://www.orangeart.com/product.asp?p=30550&pt=121
<coz_> etneg,  it has a very thin laquar coating on the outside
<coz_> woodless pencil  I guess its called
<etneg> yes i have those
<etneg> its got a shine outside
<etneg> those tend to snap
<etneg> right in the middle
<etneg> its not very strong
<coz_> etneg,  yes the do ,, nice even grahpite,, not grains
<coz_> they do rather
<etneg> i like those just for shading bgs
<etneg> where its really dark and you dont wanna go inch by inch
<etneg> thats when i use those
<etneg> i coat a layer and then go over it like 10 times before its nice and dark
<coz_> etneg,  yeah ,  you just have to careful not to 'rape'  the paper :)
<etneg> usually you dont:P
<etneg> unless people erase a lot
<etneg> or
<etneg> by pressing it down toooooooooo hard
<coz_> exactly  :")
<etneg> you'll have reflections of the lead
<etneg> and a bent paper
<coz_> etneg,  that is considered amateurish
<etneg> relfections of the lead are common though
<etneg> if you do a bg in just 9b
<etneg> you're gonna see it
<coz_> they can be  for sure,, good cotton paper helps to reduce that
<etneg> yeah but cotton removes a lot too
<etneg> if i used cotton or tissue over the darker coins
<coz_> what do you mean
<etneg> it wouldnt look nice
<etneg> the darker coins on the right are done purely using 9b
<etneg> and 4b mechanical for the inside details
<coz_> etneg,  well a real good qulaity water colour paper . hot pressed  should work  or even a nice cold pressed paper
<coz_> depending on if you want textured paper
<etneg> oh textured paper doesnt work well with graphite
<etneg> specially not where you want details thugh
<etneg> its great if you want to quick sketches like the anatomyu you did
<etneg> if there's a pore i want to skeetch, a textured paper wont let me do it
<etneg> i usually use bristol boards
<etneg> bristol illustration boards
<etneg> 500 series
<etneg> strathmore
<coz_> etneg,  next time try a hot pressed all cottom water colour paper
<coz_> etneg,  you may be like it
<etneg> water color paper has textures
<coz_> not hot pressed
<coz_> depending on the manufacturer
<etneg> will check it out
<etneg> im happy with bristol boards now though
<coz_> yep
<etneg> smooth enough
<coz_> not sure of the cottom percentage on bristol though
<etneg> the lead doesnt spread
<etneg> im avoiding using cotton or tissues these days
<etneg> trying to shade just by using the pencil
<etneg> and for highlights trying to shade around it by keeping the white of the paper and not use a kneaded erase
<etneg> eraser
<etneg> painstaking
<etneg> but well
<coz_> etneg,  yep thats the best way,, keeps the highlights clean
<etneg> yes but its painstaking
<coz_> etneg,  ah yes ,, welcome to art  :)
<etneg> also not a lot of them do that
<etneg> :D
<etneg> unless they wanna spend 100 hrs on a sketch
<coz_> etneg,  you can use a maksing fluid
<coz_> etneg, masking fluid rather
<etneg> whats that for
<coz_> etneg,  used to be exclusively use in water color to prevent color from bleeding onto highligh areas
<coz_> etneg,  but it works with any medium
<coz_> etneg,  you can even use a very fine brush to brush on a fine line for highlight
<coz_> etneg,  then just do all the pencil work and rub off the mask with your fingers  or something
<etneg> no way thats not gonna work
<etneg> :D
<coz_> then gently shade into the higlight to elimiate a hard line you might not want
<etneg> nope wont work
<etneg> if there's way too many details
<coz_> oh yeah it will honest
<coz_> its a pain in the ass  but it works :)
<etneg> applying  masking fluid
<etneg> and then skecthign over it?
<etneg> and then rubbing off the masking fluid?
<coz_> etneg,  over it ,, up to it  ,, anything
<etneg> right
<coz_> etneg,  yep then rub it off
<etneg> but the porblem is
<etneg> when you shade
<etneg> its not a big white spot
<etneg> and then dark spots around it
<etneg> it blends
<etneg> itgoes from dark - gray to lighter greys and then white
<coz_> etneg,  it can be blended easily,, just draw up to the mask
<coz_> remove the mask then complete the gradation
<etneg> i'll give it a try and see
<etneg> but thats cheating actually
<etneg> i know a guy who used masking tape for highlights
<coz_> etneg,  I have always seen it that was
<coz_> etneg,  a well planned composition doesnt really need masking
<etneg> i'll give it a try for kicks, but im not going to do it for a real sketchD:
<Islington> etneg: I started off with a pen/paper too: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Jaunty/AlphaBackgrounds?action=AttachFile&do=view&target=Miffan4test.jpg
<etneg> i remember doing a transparent hand for a client
<etneg> witha black background
<etneg> i could ive used a black paper and then used chalk or charcoal or glass pen
<etneg> but i decided to do it on whie, it wsa a bitch
<etneg> :D
<coz_> Islington,  nice
<Islington> basically you want to move from pen/paper sketch to svg
<coz_> ^^^^
<etneg> Islington: checking
<Islington> svgs vector are super useful
<etneg> nice
<etneg> thing is if i just do it in pencil/ or pen, someone else will do the coloring?
<etneg> digital coloring
<Islington> not unless you can convince them it will be worth it
<etneg> ye does ubuntu have a coloring team?
<etneg> like we could draw up concepts
<etneg> vote
<etneg> and then people color it
<Islington> afaik we dont, its an interesting idea
<etneg> thats what they do for fedora
<Islington> what sorts of things would they work on?
<etneg> the concepts are put up
<etneg> and then the artists work with the coloring team
<coz_> etneg,  that's because fedora is devoid of talent
<Islington> expand on 'concepts' though
<etneg> i for one dont do digital work so kinda works out for me as well
<etneg> coz_: not reall
<Islington> lol coz_ going for a low kick eh
<etneg> coz_: im doig their themes now:P
<coz_> :)
<etneg> Islington: well lets say
<coz_> etneg,  not meant as personal critisism,, but developers in general are poor at graphics
<etneg> coz_: yeah but there are people from deviantart coming in to do the coloring as well
<coz_> etneg,  ah ok
<Islington> etneg: finish that though
<Islington> t
<etneg> Islington: well lets say natty
<coz_> etneg,  if you do decide to try digital I would use inkscape
<etneg> natty has a theme for wallpapers
<etneg> coz_: i never wil, i  dont do digital:P
<coz_> ok
<etneg> coz_: i never wil, i  dont do digital:Pso
<etneg> so
<etneg> natty has a theme for wallpapers
<coz_> it does?
<etneg> or say banners or maybe icons
<etneg> if its based on a theme like say " ANTIQUE"
<coz_> oh I see 'let's say"
<etneg> ye
<etneg> then we draw concepts based on antique
<etneg> and place a deadline/ vote
<etneg> then keep a time allotment for coloring
<etneg> and then for polishing it up
<etneg> roughly a month for all of it
<etneg> defaults one one side, supplementary on the other side where anyone and all can contribute
<etneg> on one*
<coz_> well coloring shouldnt be too difficult  using the official ubuntu palette
<etneg> supplementary could be photographs people worked on, anything
<etneg> i did try digital but without a tablet its painful
<Islington> I floated the idea of themed community releases, it went nowhere
<etneg> oh
<etneg> so what is it now though?
<etneg> just random stuff with ubuntu logos?
<etneg> thaats what i mostly saw
<Islington> maybe the timing was wrong, idk I still think its a worthwhile idea
<coz_> etneg,  well everything,, I believe , is taken care of by canonical design team
<Islington> currently its just hanging around until some design decision is made elsewhere and handed down
<etneg> coz_: oh ok
<coz_> etneg,  we no longer have much input
<etneg> well if canonical and ubuntu has a design concept
<etneg> they wish
<etneg> i can draw it out or we could
<etneg> and  let them vote
<coz_> ')
<Islington> etneg: join the ayatanna list I think
<coz_> ayatana
<etneg> see this works out because if someone does allllllllllllll the coloring and everything and finally someone says NO
<Islington> ^
<etneg> its a waste of time
<etneg> waste of time for the guy coloring it
<coz_> etneg,  well,,  one of the issues I see with the "official" design team is lack of  colaboration,, most of the people there are from the UK  no chinese,, italian,, spanish,, etc to have different ideas floating aroung for a "real" collaboration
<etneg> ah ok
<coz_> etneg,   one sided in other words
<etneg> ye a medium is necessary
<etneg> to share
<coz_> etneg,  I dont think one american is on that team at all
<coz_> let alone from other cultures
<etneg> well if they laid out concept ideas they wanted
<etneg> i could draw them out
<coz_> yep
<etneg> it doesnt have to be on a theme basis
<coz_> etneg,  try ayatana mailing list
<etneg> ok
<etneg> so the sketch Islington did
<etneg> you're going to colorise it?
<coz_> etneg,  not me
<etneg> no i mean Islington
<coz_> ah
<coz_> seems already colored
<etneg> thats for a wallpaper?
<etneg> yeh but thats stll as a sketch
<coz_> yes I believe so
<etneg> ah cool
<coz_> etneg,  it is 'sketch" like   but in my eyes a finished piece
<etneg> oh
<coz_> etneg,  for a wallpaper
<Islington> it was a trial wall for the alpha of jaunty etneg
<coz_> etneg,   one thing for wallpapers is not too busy,, dont distract the eye  from work realted things
<etneg> Islington: thats what i was aiming for
<etneg> doing alpha stuff
<Islington> it got remixed into a dvd cover thought
<etneg> coz_: yeah soft tones
<etneg> so are they accepting sketches or concepts for alpha wallpapers?
<Islington> nope idea was stillborn
<coz_> etneg,  I havent heard anything
<coz_> etneg,  they are going to keep it "corporate" based I think
<etneg> ah
<etneg> who does ubuntu's default stuff?
<etneg> canonical's design team?
<coz_> etneg,   yep
<coz_> etneg,  the canonical design team
<etneg> and arent they here?
<etneg> in this channel
<coz_> etneg,  yeah they are here at times
<coz_> etneg,  closer to the weekend  is less likely though  ,, certainly on the weekends
<coz_> i mean definitly not the weekends
<etneg> well anyhow i can sketch so if ubuntu needs something, allyours
<etneg> :D
<coz_> there you go :)
<coz_> ok I have to break here,, be back later
<etneg> so Islington youre in the design eteam?
<etneg> or just doing it on the side?
<Islington> not official tema
<Islington> was on the artwork team
<etneg> ah ok
<etneg> so would i be of any use to ubuntu's art team yet
<Islington> depnds on what you want to do
<Islington> if its just sketchwork, then it will be harder to find a fit
<Islington> but if you can start working on digitalizing it will prove more useful
<etneg> ye just sketch for now
<Islington> hmm
<etneg> or i could work side by side with someone who does graphics
<etneg> like yourself or something
<etneg> i draw, you digitize:D
<Islington> ah but currently I am not on any ubuntu projects
<etneg> ah k
<Islington> and most of the work I am doing currently is pure vector work.
<Islington> hmm an expereince with UI ideas?
<etneg> ah k
<Islington> 8any
<Islington> **any
<etneg> i can sketch anything
<etneg> so if UI needs somthing along those lines to help get started, ok
<Islington> well for example if you have a good idea for UI can you sketch it out and describe how it will work?
<etneg> got an example?
<Islington> hmm cant think of any lol
<Islington> Try to sketch out ideas/designs for the elementary swag
<etneg> ye but whats that thought
<etneg> dan didnt say much
<etneg> said he wasnt sure
<etneg> the site doesnt tell much either
<Islington> convince him, sketch out a tshirt idea or a button idea
<etneg> oh merchandise
<Islington> ^
<etneg> na
<etneg> people would do those better just using photoshop for that
<etneg> lot easier
<Islington> I say tshirt or button because they have restrictions on the number of colors they can have, ...
<etneg> a pencil sketch wouldnt say much about a product unless i madeit look photorealistic enough
<etneg> ye considering there's 0- no oeffort in making that when theres even restrictions for the color, that much easier for people to just pohotoshpp stuff
<etneg> alright if there's anything im here
<etneg> bbl:D
<Islington> like I said I would work on transitioning from pure pencil work to vector work
<Islington> like draw something, take a picture, and  try converting it to vectors
<Islington> its clear you have talent :)
<Islington> actually in inkscape you can use path>>trace bitmap to help out
<etneg> i tried digital
<etneg> but its justnot working out for me
<etneg> unless i have a tablet
<etneg> also if i do take digital seriously i just might not lose interest in pencil
<etneg> which is why i just wanna stick to pencilfor now:D
<etneg> i mena
<etneg> i might lose interest in pencil sketching
<etneg> the bitmap stuff is what i used for some of the logos i did
<etneg> i was working on a logo for syslinux and the maintainer approved the concept
<etneg> i needed someone to digitize it and  i tried but it didnt come out as good
<etneg> im getting the concepts right for most of the stuff in pencil, but the digitizing part is where i'll need someone while i still work with the on the side in telling them what palette is ideal and etc etc
<etneg> work with them*
<palhmbs> etneg, I'm interested in digitizing your stuff for you
<palhmbs> I just bought a wacom tablet so I could print it out from a PDF then do a trace - or use something like illustrator to trace it.
<palhmbs> but you'd still need to scan it into your computer....
<etneg> palhmbs: for real?!?!
<etneg> that would be awesome
<palhmbs> well I can try
<palhmbs> we'll do some test runs ok?
<palhmbs> I'm not all that great on sketching, so I'd love some lessons :P
<palhmbs> I've only done vector stuff
<palhmbs> and photo retouching
<doctormo> palhmbs: Inkscape is the tool for tracing in vector
<palhmbs> doctormo, yeah - I meant Inkscape
<palhmbs> I used Freehand 5 way back when, it had tracing....
<doctormo> I tend not to use the tracing tool as such, I do things by hand, but then I'm doing more cartoon art than realistic art.
<palhmbs> doctormo, you do it to earn real $$ dough though right?
<palhmbs> it's not just a hobby?
<doctormo> palhmbs: Sometimes
<etneg> palhmbs: cool
<etneg> yeah we could work something out
<doctormo> palhmbs: Did you see my bronie pic?
<etneg> doctormo: lets see
<etneg> have anything like graphics art?
<palhmbs> doctormo, nope - link, please!!
<etneg> palhmbs: appreciate it!
<doctormo> http://fav.me/d3ioufz
<palhmbs> hey etneg np - I'm just trying to help out ubuntu....
<palhmbs> I <3 Ubuntu!!
<etneg> yeah cool me too
<etneg> nicee
<etneg> vector?
<palhmbs> etneg, so goto http://palbakulich.me/ - & fill in my contact form or follow the details there to chat in my own chatroom.
<palhmbs> my skype and gtalk is on there...
<etneg> we could chat here eh?
<etneg> im always on freenode
<palhmbs> doctormo, I don't follow MLP but it's pretty impressive for cartooning imoi
<etneg> palhmbs: you've done any graphic art stuff?
<palhmbs> that man in-front of the computer on my website is a vector converted to png....
<palhmbs> I edited it - originally a pic on openclipart.org
<palhmbs> I haven't created much of my own yet....
<doctormo> yep vector
<palhmbs> I did do a twitter birdie - but mostly I copy.
<palhmbs> or trace.
<doctormo> Can either of you do sketches?
<palhmbs> very bad ones... like I said earlier: "I'm not all that great on sketching, so I'd love some lessons :P"
<doctormo> palhmbs: Lesson 1, look at my sketch gallery
<doctormo> http://doctormo.deviantart.com/gallery/?catpath=scraps
<doctormo> Note the large amount of rubish crap.
<doctormo> BUT: One drawing a day for a few months and my drawing did get much better.
<palhmbs> putting it up there encourages newbies - no?
<doctormo> I published it so I could keep track and so could others.
<palhmbs> doctormo, do you know aldeka?
<doctormo> Not by nickname, who is it?
<palhmbs> she's done some great graphics for openhatch.org
<palhmbs> Karen Rustad
<palhmbs> doctormo, http://twitter.com/#!/mllerustad
<palhmbs> also have either of you used twiddla ?
<palhmbs> http://twiddla.com/
<palhmbs> might be a great place for sketching lessons, don't you think?
<palhmbs> I still haven't got my serial wacom tablet working in ubuntu :-(
<palhmbs> it's an Intuos 1 (original).
<doctormo> I don't use twitter.
<doctormo> http://artdude529.deviantart.com/art/Justice-Herd-214650702 ok that's funny
<doctormo> palhmbs: Your wacom is a bastard, sorry mate. It's almost easier to just hack into the old code and make a user-space driver for the stupid thing.
<palhmbs> yeah, I emailed ping cheng in the end
<palhmbs> she said "some people on sourceforge's mailing list have had success with it"
<palhmbs> then I went - doh
<palhmbs> cause when she told me my model number was an Intuos 2 I did some research and found that it was actually an Intuos original
<palhmbs> so my USB adaptor that I paid an extra $30 buck for doesn't work in linux
<palhmbs> and I think I may just install ubuntu 9.10 so that I can use the darn thing in linux.
<doctormo> yikes, what does the usb thing do exactly?
<palhmbs> currently testing Corel Painter 12 in Win XP though.....
<palhmbs> it's just an RS232 to USB adaptor
<palhmbs> funny thin is -- cat on /dev/ttys0 was giving me some nice strings when I moved the pen....
<palhmbs> s/thin/thing/
<palhmbs> so I guess serial does work, it's just the driver.
<palhmbs> I also installed your PPA... & still no go.
<doctormo> palhmbs: Yes, the serial wacom driver is a simple as it gets.
<doctormo> Yeah my ppa won't work, the serial stuff was hacked out of the source :-/
<palhmbs> what I can't understand, if it's so simple why drop support for it?
<palhmbs> I'd love to see ubuntu support old stuff like puppylinux...
<palhmbs> at least most of their 3G and video stuff worked
<palhmbs> (just not that easy to setup python among other things).
<palhmbs> well, at least not back when I was seriously considering puppylinux as a distro...
<doctormo> palhmbs: Well.... the linux kernel has a bit of an issue with all passive ports. Parallel and Serial.
<doctormo> It provides support for the /dev/ttyS0 ports, but doesn't actually have any soft-plugs and I can't convince any kernel developer that the idea is worth doing something about
<doctormo> "Get a USB device"
<palhmbs> I guess we have to look forward to the future....
<palhmbs> yeah saving for an Intuos 4 and Windows Seven :P
<doctormo> Windows Seven?
 * doctormo hits his head against a table top
<doctormo> I have a belly full of bile because users invest a SHIT TON of money into Windows and Microsoft but invest $0 into Free Software development. It's frustrating as hell. Although I thinkyou were just playing with me.
<palhmbs> yeah I was, sorry
<palhmbs> but actually I am considering it...
<palhmbs> because my box is IE9 free, and I'm a web developer who needs IE9 for testing.
<palhmbs> so somebody said: sign up for M$ TechNet releases.
<doctormo> palhmbs: You need to test IE9? why? if it's as standards complaint as I've been hearing then there is no real need.
<doctormo> Although using the screenshot website is fun.
<palhmbs> well, I use crossbrowser.com....
<palhmbs> but I had a problem just this week with an jquery accordion
<palhmbs> I couldn't figure out the problem, I asked a friend who is a senior dev - and he finally found out it was my console log calls.....
<doctormo> My normal reply is "Yes I'm sorry it doesn't work with IE, I would test the website in IE, but it's against my religion"
<palhmbs> that are fine in FF, & everything else.... just not IE9 without the developer toolbar :P
<palhmbs> currently I have a problem with IE7 on the same site
<palhmbs> it won't work at all, but works fine in IE6... lol
<palhmbs> IE's a joke
<palhmbs> I still wish people would discover opera and force them to opensource it.
<doctormo> palhmbs: heh, technically good, has no real future because it's not open.
<palhmbs> strong user support in russia
<palhmbs> that's a pretty closed country...
<palhmbs> but, it is free - idk
<palhmbs> i don't know any other browser that integrate mail so fully - the sidebar is also great for loading mobile sites into... like m.gmail.com
<etneg> palhmbs: not bad
<etneg> yeah we could work something out
 * palhmbs discovers retina queries, woo...
<coz_> hey all
#ubuntu-artwork 2011-06-26
<coz_> hey all
#ubuntu-artwork 2012-06-24
<ash_> Hello all!
<ash_> A bit quiet today, I'll come back another time
