#ubuntu-doc 2005-01-24
<froud> African greetings
<sid77> hi
<froud> How do I create a link between two pages in wiki? I put [foopagetitle]  and I get foopagetitle?
<froud> All right there plovs ?
<plovs> froud, hi yes, just working really hard, but i think i've done what I had to for today
<froud> good I started with the docteam home page, its not all finished, but it's a start https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocumentationTeamHome
<plovs> looks good
<plovs> i hope to be able to get some work done during the weekend, i'll be abroad but i hope i have time during traveling
<plovs> i have lots of notes on admin stuff
<[froud] > plovs, hi sorry about that
<[froud] > problems
<[froud] > ok so we will see you when you come back
#ubuntu-doc 2005-01-26
(enrico/#ubuntu-doc) not really a vendor branch: during the docteam bof, jdub said that the Gnome people were working on making it easy to rebrand the Gnome User's Guide, so we could work with them on that
<froud> makes sense
<enrico> Do you mind if I rename DocumentationTeamHome in DocumentationTeam?
<froud> Its up to you. I am not stuck on anything. Remain flexible
<enrico> froud: BTW, I remember from a previous IRC log that you and plovs talked about adding authorblurb to book chapters, to mark that one's working on it.  However, I didn't understand what was the agreement on that, so I coudln't cover it on the report
<froud> goals and responsabilities are not defined clearly
<froud> nobody knows who is doing what
<froud> in the docs I thought it woul dbe good for people to add their name next to sections they want to do
<froud> I would then use this to automatically make a list of what is in th epipe and what is not
<froud> this way new people can also see what they may do
<froud> I made a proposal in email
<froud> but only plovs responds
<enrico> We could try to do some step-by-step pages on contributing: "how to write text" (add your name as authorblurb, write things, commit).  "How to review" (read, post comments in the list, fix typos and commit, discuss bigger things in the list with the people in authorblurb)
<froud> sure, but thiss is a general wiki thing
<froud> we need traction on the docbook stuff
<froud> In general I am not happy with the spead of work
<enrico> But at least it would allow people who want to contribute to just start doing along a clear path, without needing to figure out anything.
<froud> agreed
<froud> hence I was building from the inside out
<enrico> If I'm lazy and I want to contribute, I'm happy to follow something step by step
<froud> but it needs for people to put their names in the source against sections they want to do
<froud> writin a step by step is good
<froud> and should be a goal
<froud> but all this detracts from Hoary
<enrico> well, "add authourblurb like this" could be in the step-by-step
<froud> already I have spent more time Documenting the Documentation Project that I should
<froud> and with all the confusions on the current goals I have now focused on the admin guide
<froud> this because I can get traction
<froud> on most projects you just need the for the hasty
<froud> and peolple get stuck in
<froud> and discuss on mail
<froud> now discussion is good, but only if people do talk and respnd to one another
<froud> for example
<froud> it is frustrating spending an hour or more composing an RFC or Proposal to only get back one response
<froud> eventually I think
<froud> wtf
<froud> why waste my time
<froud> just do it and dont talk to anyone about what I am doing
<froud> but this is not healthy in OSS projects
<froud> excuse me if I am being a bit critical here
<froud> but I think it is required
<froud> without proposals/rfc's and responses of others opionions it is hard
<froud> to organize and mobilize
<enrico> you're quite right.  I think you're reasoning at a larger scale than the current docteam is: active people at the moment are roughly you, plovs, me, chrish, sivang (did I forget anyone?)
<froud> I have a long author group list
<froud> are they there?
<froud> or just to get their name on the page?
<enrico> How long since their last commit?
<enrico> Maybe they did something some time ago, and became inactive
<froud> just do svn log in th etrunk
<froud> if you want o see what people did then do svn blame on a folder
<froud> or file
<enrico> Yes, I know subversion, but that was to tell you about what could be the real size of the team
<froud> well I/we cant mandate anything
<froud> but my point is people are not reponding on issues posted to the list
<enrico> my guess on that is because we're quite a tiny team atm, and most of the people hang out on IRC anyway and have discussed such things on IRC with you
<froud> irc goes away
<enrico> if they haven't, next time they come to IRC you can say "hey, have you read that?  What do you think?"
<froud> email stays
<enrico> I know IRC goes away (and with the reports I try to make the most important things stay, since more things happen in IRC than in the list)
<froud> point is email is a better log of what was decided to do
<enrico> However, for smaller groups in which everyone hangs out in IRC, IRC can be the main mean of communication
<enrico> Like "if froud didn't mention that on IRC, then he doesn't need further comments on the list"
<enrico> I'm not saying that it's right, I'm guessing what's happening
<froud> enrico, most of the list irc list is comprise don bots and people who doint contribute
<enrico> But all the 5 names I mentioned you before hang out on IRC
<froud> yes. they do
<froud> but I dont want to discuss long issues in irc
<froud> I use my email
<froud> I can always make messages important and search email
<froud> to remind me what exactly was said
<enrico> I suggest you post things on the list, then ping people on IRC.  If I don't see answers to my mails, I chase people on IRC: that's the only way I can have answers, I realized
<froud> sucks
<enrico> I know, but I don't seem to be able to get things done otherwise :(
<froud> well I have decided that I am just going to hack on. So I may drop out of site
<froud> you will see my commits
<froud> I wont waste my time writing rfc or proposals
<enrico> I write down things on a mail, then after one or two days I don't get an answer I go on IRC and I start "did you see my mail with subject "xxx" 2 days ago?  when can we do that?"
<froud> yes we discussed that
<froud> my goal is hoary
<froud> and as I see it the date is 21 feb
<enrico> I agree.  It's time to hack.
<enrico> I would so much prefer to be doing progress reports rather than tidying up proposals and consensuses
<froud> so if u dont see me on irc or on the list, just do svn log
<froud> well progress can only be obtained when people know and say what they are doing
<enrico> :)  But please stay around on IRC... that's comfortable if someone wants to contact you
<enrico> And it's cool having you around here!
<froud> They can post to the list, perhaps that will force them to communicate
<froud> the problem is that there is no alignment
<enrico> Another item for the "step by step": how to contact the others.  Mail in the list, with a "if I don't see people disagreeing within 3 days, I'll go on"
<enrico> what do you mean with alignment?
<froud> good, agreed
<froud> people need to take ownership and align on what they will do and on what they will help
<froud> for example
<froud> I may take sections about
<froud> DNS, TCP/IP
<froud> then I need people to review
<froud> if I know who will help
<froud> it would be easier
<froud> frankly I am pissed and that is the time when I normally just kickout. But I have committed to much to do that now so I must ride the wave.
<froud> I had a chat about this to mako
<froud> I understand the conditions
<froud> but must also decide whether this project is worth it or not
<froud> IMHO, since I started the Admin Guide I must follow through
<froud> and I intend to do that by hoary
<froud> I was innitially intending to help build processes etc. But see that this is not working
<froud> if it was making progress, I would continue
<enrico> I'm sometimes pissed or sad to see that very few people are doing things.  When it happens, I just restrict my notion of the team to the few that are making commits, and then I'm happy we have a tiny team of active people.  Then I try to find out ways on how to get more people involved.
<froud> you have the time for that, :-)
<enrico> Well, yes, that's also what I'm paid for.  But it's interesting, nonetheless, to observe the dynamics of communities and see how things go
<froud> sure
<enrico> The cool part is that I cannot judge things, as they just go regardless of my judgements.  So I have a chance to see beyond the current understandings
<enrico> Like, there may be few active people not because everyone's an asshole, but maybe because we don't advertise the project properly
<enrico> And it may be that we don't advertise it properly because we have no easy and clear enough page to point people at
<enrico> well, now we probably have some of such pages, so I'm considering advertising
<froud> The main problem with documentation iin OSS is that OSS projects do not understand that it is part of a "go-to-market" strategy.
<enrico> I'm quite enthousiast by your recent work, and I'm very committed in merging in the old things and in makign the step by step pages, then pointing people at them
<froud> As you know there is very little go-to-market in OSS
<froud> this is why there are so few open source authors
<froud> the business case is easy to make for developers
<froud> but not so easy for writers
<enrico> what do you mean with business case?
<froud> IMO, OSS projects should hire writers
<froud> developers, most of them
<froud> make money from services
<froud> support, training, implimentation
<froud> writers cant do  that
<froud> the business case for developers has money behind it
<enrico> good point
<froud> for writers it currently does not
<enrico> that's why most writers are developers that need to document their thing
<froud> and developers cant write
<froud> and if they are paid to write
<enrico> another class of writers, however, could be users that want to improve things for themselves
<froud> that time is not well spent
<enrico> I'd like to try to give users a chance to do things
<froud> enrico, as you know it takes lots of time to write docs
<froud> properly
<froud> most people will not commit that amount of free time
<froud> I feel that OSS projects (large ones)
<froud> need a core paid team
<froud> the ensure progress
<froud> they
<froud> and accept contributions
<froud> As an author, I sometimes question the motives of OSS projects in expecting to get free documentation for something that is essentially a go-to-market strategy
<froud> go-to-market is a recent thing in the life of OSS
<froud> a few years ago it never existed
<froud> but in going to market, you need to build a complete project
<froud> and product
<enrico> uhm uhm.  Could it be that the wrong thing we're doing is trying to make books?  I'll explain:
<froud> the software alone is not complete
<froud> ok
<enrico> quality books need quality writers and quite some quality assurance chain; they also need deadlines (they should come together with the software) and they get obsolete as software progresses.  This means that to have a quality book, a team must be paid regularly to create and update something within a given deadline
<froud> agreed
<enrico> However, there are people writing small tutorials and HOWTOs all the time for various reasons; two that get to my mind are show off what they managed to get, explain something to someone and then share it to others
<enrico> So, if we want to harness and structure these volunteer contributions, the book for doesn't capture these pieces of informations very well, as it would be a book that collects autonomous, unrelated pieces of information
<enrico> But we don't necessarily need to make books, stealing professional writers their wage
<froud> agreed
<enrico> So, I think at the QuickGuide: that's a collection of unrelated pieces of work, all different introductions to different applications.  That could be workable.
<froud> disagree
<enrico> Or another thing could be collecting all the HOWTOs that have been written in the Wiki and making a yelpable document out of them
<froud> part agree
<enrico> Or packaging the HOWTOs and tutorials that we find around together with the application itself
<froud> disagree
<enrico> Or similar other creative ways of taking what people like to write on their own and seeing if something cool can be done with that
<froud> what is the ultimate objective of Ubuntu?
<enrico> total world domination as usual, I guess?  Solving bug #1 in bugzilla?
<froud> not possible
<enrico> hello ChrisH!
<enrico> froud: what do you mean?
<froud> hello ChrisH 
<froud> world domination is not possible in OSS
<froud> the fabric of OSS ensures this
<froud> So what is the ultimate objective of Ubuntu?
<enrico> Sure, I was joking on that.  I think the goal is making a substainable company that pays developers to improve the world of free software in a way or another
<froud> *developers*
<enrico> I think I get what you mean.  Not only developers are required to improve the free software world, right?
<froud> The ultimate objective of ubuntu is to create a revenue stream fro Canonical Ltd.
<enrico> In 2 minutes I need to pick up the laundry, staying afk for around 5 minutes.  
<froud> ok
<enrico> yes, sustainable company means revenue stream
<froud> Mark Shuttleworth is not stupid
<froud> he knows that OSS is the ceapest way to develop sofwtare
<froud> Canonical makes money by probviding services around Ubuntu
<froud> at present the business in sponsoring (investing)
<froud> the business plan is long
<froud> a number of years
<froud> Thi si sfine
<froud> but to build a platform that "Just works"
<froud> requires quality
<froud> ateention to usability
<froud> training
<froud> support
<froud> docs are about knowledge transfer, they are the first line of support
* enrico nods
<froud> most 'users' dont understand HOWTO's
<enrico> actually quality and usabilty are the even firster lines of support
<froud> they dont understand developer docs
<froud> yes, integral to the product
<froud> to create a complete product you need it all
<froud> you need Certification
<froud> training engineers
<froud> trained trainers
<froud> only then will large business adopt
<froud> SuSE/Novell has this right
<enrico> RedHat is doing the same
<froud> Yes but with Novell enterprises have local support from the mother company
<enrico> they have trained engineers that are allocated to solve the problems of the large businesses they support
<froud> try live in South africa and get support from RH
<froud> you cant
<enrico> Maybe RH doesn't target SA.  I know they do this with US and at least some of the EU
<enrico> But yes, I see the point
<froud> For ubuntu to succeed
<enrico> I've started telling people that the best way to help free software is start a company and make money doing support
<froud> it needs to build a complete project
<froud> a complete product
<froud> ok so how do writers make money
<froud> we have to live
<enrico> Either you work on your own, or you are hired by someone
<enrico> If you work on your own, you create a product and then get money from your target to make it evolve
<froud> people open support companies and have a first line of support in the docs, can I get a royalty
<froud> not likely
<froud> ok so as a writer, what would your product be to achieve that objective
<enrico> a book, an interactive cdrom, an expert system, some useful piece of documentation
<froud> ok but then I will not OSS that
<froud> if I do it is free to use by all
<enrico> You can OSS it and still get money to support it, or customize it to local needs
<froud> where's the money?
<froud> everybody can do that
<froud> why do they need me
<enrico> Like, get paid to extend your OOo guide to cover the local needs of an enterprise, by going there and study how they work
<enrico> everybody can do that with software, too
<froud> the whol epoint of OSS is that they can get the source
<froud> yes, they can
<froud> but everybody thinks they are a writer
<froud> not everybody thinks they are a dev
<froud> or can impliemnt
<enrico> oh, if you look at PHP software repositories you'll find lots of people thinks they are a dev
<enrico> or look at ASP e-commerce solutions
<froud> sure and what do you get
<enrico> poor quality
<froud> If I understand this right, there must have been a reason for Mark Shuttleworth to want to build ubuntu
<froud> why not just take an existing distro
<froud> why do we need a new distro
<enrico> what distro would you have taken?
<enrico> laundry, bbiab
<froud> well mandrake is doing a good desktop job
<froud> ok bye
<enrico> But mandrake's not Debian
<froud> does that really matter
<enrico> Appearently, it does
<froud> the users dont care
<enrico> Maybe just as a quirk from Mark
<froud> why go to all the trouble
<froud> I dont think it is a quirk
<enrico> Maybe because Debian was potentially much better and only needed that small bit of a cleaning
<froud> a person that has "There be dragons" written on his web site has done shome serious thinking and reading
<froud> no there be money here
<froud> Canonical wants a quality product
<froud> they call there own
<froud> if they took just another distro
<froud> they would just be a shop
<froud> well to be continued perhaps
<enrico> I"m back
<froud> geeze that was quick
<froud> you have a laundromat next door?
<enrico> laundry here is hung in bamboo sticks: you put the basket on the ground, pull down the stick, shake it and everything falls on the basket :)
<froud> cool
<froud> well, I am going back to respond to your messages and then hack the admin guide.
<froud> just wish svn was not down, again
<enrico> is it down?  bu
<enrico> Tuesday I'll hear from Elmo again.  Yesterday I gave him a dump and some hooks so that he can play around with subversion server-side
<froud> hmm, you try maybe its just the connectivity from South AFrica
<froud> yes, saw that message sounds good
<enrico> svn works now
<enrico> just tried an update
<froud> may be it is just the connectivity from here
<froud> oh hold on here it is :-)
<enrico> froud: can I take the Docbook 4.3 item away from DocteamWishlist?  (or move it to a solved part) ?
<froud> sure, we have all 4.3 now
<enrico> froud: moved.  Thanks!
<enrico> froud: I merged the descriptions from the FAQ into DocteamProjects
<froud> looking
<enrico> I'm adding a desc of the AdminGuide
<enrico> done
<froud> enrico, nice, I see a few touches needed in text, but will do those
<froud> what about the internationalization?
<_d4vid> hi all
<froud> hello _d4vid 
<froud> enrico, why do we duplicate content under the FAQ?
<froud> tis better to link between the pages
<froud> e.g. What is being worked on?
<enrico> I wanted to put something just to avoid the frustration of finding a link but not an answer; however with this question you convinced me to just list the names of the things and link to DocteamProjects.  I'm doing it now...
<enrico> done
<froud> much better :-)
<froud> always easier to maintain in one place and link to it in various contexts
<froud> enrico, do we really want to port GNOME documentation
<enrico> That'd be important afaik, since ubuntu would be one of the main distros featuring gnome
<froud> yes but why port
<froud> *port*
<froud> Seems to me, GOME has a code base
<froud> we should reuse it 
<enrico> Port does not make much sense, yes.  Rebrand does
<enrico> Ubuntu doesn't make many modifications to Gnome anyway
<froud> to accelerate doc dev
<froud> we should consider a process akin to vendor drops
<froud> however, mako and others have said that there are problems with vendor drops
<froud> I plan to test it locally
<froud> GNOME is in CVS
<froud> we're in SVN
<froud> that further compunds things
<froud> but I see they have svn_load_dirs.pl
<froud> this could solve much of the overhead
<froud> the alternative is to maintain symlink to a local co on each authors host
<enrico> No, please... I suggest you ask jdub about the rebranding support they want to build into gnome docs upstream, and we work with them
<froud> yes we can do the same from our repos
<froud> fact is everything ubuntu docs related can take place upstream
<froud> what's left
<froud> one must seriously ask the question, "Do we need core docs?"
<enrico> As I see it, we do need the About Ubuntu page, the Quick Guide and the rebranding of the Gnome User's Guide
<enrico> Those don't exist upstream or require us to work with upstraem
<enrico> I don't say anything about the User's Guide and the Admin Guide, because they came out spontaneously
<froud> Yes
<enrico> Same as the FAQ Guide.  But the FAQ Guide has been finished, it's cool, wow!
<froud> The only value in having our own versions is if we have a difference between ubuntu and upstream
<froud> thanks to plovs
<enrico> The about ubuntu page has been "finished", but still misses a make target that generates it
<froud> yes, I have this as a bug
<enrico> So, for what hoary is concerned, we miss the Quick Guide
<froud> yes, but much of quick guide stuff can be reused form GNOME
<enrico> Can you give me an example in Gnome?
<froud> well as I understand QG, its a short intro to the app and a screen capture
<froud> this exists in all GMOME docs
<enrico> Could you give me a link?
<froud> in cvs?
<enrico> don't they have them in the web?
<froud> yes, but I never look at it
<froud> :-)
<froud> just the code ?
<froud> grrrr. never can find anything on GNOME site
<froud> enrico, the other way is to use the docs from the app source like GAIM
<froud> but that means  many vendor drops
<enrico> Do you have a CVS example, then?
<froud> hold getting it
<enrico> I'd like to look at it to see if they are already doing a short useful self-contained description: I'm used at seeing introductions to further text rather than small, self-contained intros.
<froud> here is a generic example from their tutorial src
<froud> <sect2 id="aboutex">
<froud>    <title>About this Document and gdp-example2</title>
<froud>    <indexterm>
<froud>     <primary>ScrollKeeper</primary>
<froud>     <secondary>Examples</secondary>
<froud>     <tertiary>gdp-example2</tertiary>
<froud>    </indexterm>
<froud>    <para>
<froud>     The package <filename>gdp-example2</filename> illustrates how
<froud>     to set up a GNOME 2 package to properly install its documentation and OMF
<froud>     files and register them with ScrollKeeper.  This document is part
<froud>     of the <filename>gdp-example2</filename> package and explains what the
<froud>     important files in the package are.  This document also provides 
<froud>     step-by-step instructions on how to modify an existing package to include
<froud>     the documentation files and build instructions.
<froud>    </para>
<froud>    <para>
<froud>     That this document is meant to be a brief explanation and tutorial
<froud>     on what needs to be done.  For more information, look inside the 
<froud>     various files in this package or contact the authors.
<froud>    </para>
<froud>    <para>
<froud>     This package is maintained in <ulink type="http"
<froud>     url="http://www.gnome.org/">GNOME</ulink> CVS for
<froud>     in the <filename
<froud>     class="directory">gnome-docu</filename> module under 
<froud>     <filename class="directory">gnome-docu/gdp/</filename>.
* enrico hopes froud isn't pasting it all
<froud>    </para>
<froud>   </sect2>
<froud> you want to use pastebin
<enrico> pastebin?
<enrico> Anyway, from that intro, that document is a bit too much.
<enrico> (it seems to me)
<enrico> The quick guide shouldn't really spend too much time teaching how to use things.  More like telling what could be done with things.
<froud> yes, but you can get only what you need
<enrico> Maybe I should write a page as an example
<froud> that would be good
<enrico> The other question is: is it simpler to pull in all the bits we need or to just write?
<froud> from a maintenance perspective it is better to use a vendor drop
<enrico> I imagine the QuickGuide would be rewritten in most parts for every Ubuntu release
<froud> sure that's why you want to reuse
<enrico> froud: [different topic]  Since every product page (AboutUbuntuPage, QuickGuide and so on) has a status section, do we really need DocteamStatus?  I was considering aggregating it with DocteamProjects, saying that the link also contains status info
<froud> each doc has a revisionhistory
<froud> no status
<froud> but that revision history is not the same as status
<froud> over at GNOME they maintain a document owner list
<froud> and KDE to
<enrico> I try to  explain myself better: http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/QuickGuide has a "Status" section, and DocteamStatus claims to be linking to just that
<froud> There is too much in that spec
<enrico> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/FAQGuide has a better status section
<enrico> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/AboutUbuntuPage even better
<froud> also to much
<enrico> there is not much in QuickGuide because not much work in it has taken place yet :)
<froud> why have the outline there
<enrico> No reason to have hte outline, can be fixed, but
<froud> doc spec is short to the point
* enrico points froud to the "status" section :)
<froud> status is something long
<froud> each section has a staus
<enrico> uhm... who would maintain that?
<froud> and that is agregated to give the overall stat
<froud> automatic if you read the message I sent. I will expand on it in a response
<enrico> Unless it could be autogenerated from docbook tags and svn commits, I see problems in maintaining tags by hand
<enrico> Ok, I'll wait for the response then
<froud> I have a meeting now. must go
<enrico> dinnertime here.  brb
<enrico> Busy evening is going to be.  I'll resume works tomorrow.  Tomorrow I'll be working on Ubuntu the whole day
<enrico> Bye!
<_d4vid> play HIM - You Are the One.mp3
#ubuntu-doc 2005-01-27
* _d4vid is away: Ich bin besch?ftigt
<enrico> hello!  Anyone around?
<_d4vid> http://win2k3.by.ru/solaris10_b72.txt
<abelli> ciao
<abelli> q enrico
#ubuntu-doc 2005-01-28
<enrico> ubuntulog: welcome!
<enrico> ubuntulog: if you don't stay in the channel, how can I make the IRC report?
<ChrisH> enrico: using irclog.workaround.org :)
<Kinnison> ChrisH: but that's just a workaround; not a solution :-P
<enrico> ChrisH: it's a bit cumbersome: I need to go there, pick the right amount of lines, paste in; ubuntulogs sends me a mail every day at midnight...
<ChrisH> enrico: ic
* enrico is really really lazy for these things
* enrico goes to bed
#ubuntu-doc 2005-01-29
<plovs_work> morning all
<sm> hello plovs_work
#ubuntu-doc 2005-01-30
<enrico> ChrisH: irclog.workaround.org has unicode problems!
<enrico> ChrisH: I can't summarize froud and sivan chatting in Hebrew :)
<ChrisH> enrico: Oops. I need to look into that.
<enrico> ChrisH: :)
<sivang> hey peopel, anybody here?
* Kinnison listens to the echoes
<sivang> hehe
#ubuntu-doc 2006-01-23
<robotgeek> hi, is it possible to put line numbers inside code blocks?
<robotgeek> hmm, i'll copy paste from vim :)
<robotgeek> hi, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AddingRepositoriesCliHowto i just updated it, is it good enuf to move out of categoryclenup ?
<Burgwork> robotgeek, looks good, but I would another small paragraph that explains what this howto is doing, before launching into the explanation of Universe
<robotgeek> Burgwork: meaning more explanation of why we are doing what we are doing?
<robotgeek> i will just copy paste from the AddRepositoriesHowto :)
<Burgwork> robotgeek, yep. Oh, and link to the adding repos page, stating this the gui way is better
<robotgeek> I did, in the first para
<Burgwork> sorry, I am at work and only quickly scanned it, which means it didn't jump  out at me
<Burgwork> which means, IMHO, it needs to be  made more promient
<robotgeek> hmm, okay. will do
<Burgwork> robotgeek, thanks
<robotgeek> okay, i'll ping you again after i'm thru
<Burgwork> robotgeek, np
<Burgwork> robotgeek, ping Burgundavia so that I can see if you want me, as I am going home
<robotgeek> Burgwork: done
<robotgeek> Burgundavia: please https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AddingRepositoriesCliHowto i'll be right back
<Burgundavia> robotgeek_away, looks good now
<LaserJock> hi theCore 
<theCore> hi!
<LaserJock> theCore: how's it going?
<theCore> not bad, I been trying to learn more about the spec of the DocBook format
<LaserJock> from where?
<theCore> the docbook definitive guide
<theCore> it's in the repo
<theCore> docbook-defguide
<LaserJock> ahh, yes. I did that over Christmas ;-)
<theCore> oh
<theCore> i'm late then ;)
<LaserJock> it's never too late
<theCore> where the yelp docs are stored in ubuntu, I just can't find it out :( , ( too much repo for me )
<LaserJock> what do you mean? the documentation about yelp?
<Burgundavia> theCore, /usr/share/docs I believe
<Burgundavia> theCore, look at where ubuntu-docs dumps its stuff
<theCore> I searched there, and I didn't found it, but will try again
<theCore> I will *
<Burgundavia> theCore, http://packages.ubuntu.com/cgi-bin/search_contents.pl?searchmode=filelist&word=kubuntu-docs&version=breezy&arch=all
<Burgundavia> that is kubuntu docs
<theCore> oh thanks
<robotgeek> Burgundavia: great
<Burgundavia> robotgeek, thanks for the great work
<robotgeek> Burgundavia: no issues, i am aiming for about atleast one wiki article a day
<Burgundavia> robotgeek, I did to. And then work caught up with me
<robotgeek> Burgundavia: no work right now :)
<robotgeek> Burgundavia: later then, cya later
<Burgundavia> robotgeek, cya
<LaserJock> hmm, if I use the sort descriptions from packages do I need to worry about copyright/license ?
<Burgundavia> LaserJock, what do you mean?
<Burgundavia> LaserJock, oh, technically yes
<LaserJock> I am trying to put some one-line descriptions of some packages in the packaging guide
<LaserJock> it is convenient to use the short descriptions (what you see in synaptic)
<Burgundavia> one line would probably be ok
<LaserJock> I think that the actual packaging (which the description comes from) is public domain, maybe
<Burgundavia> not unless they have expressly released it under that license
<LaserJock> hmm, I'll ask -devel
<LaserJock> it is actually an intersting question
* Burgundavia is struggling to write his article
<LaserJock> Burgundavia: getting any better?
<robotgeek> Hi can someone take a look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/VimHowto and tell me if it's okay to bring it out of CategoryCleanup ?
<mdke> looks excellent, go ahead and take it out. two things: nuke the warning at the beginning and add CategoryDocumentation
<mdke> robotgeek, ^
<mdke> how there is a vim moin plugin
<mdke> how/wow
<robotgeek> yup, i use it to edit all my wiki stuff
<robotgeek> do i need to add it any other category?
<robotgeek> mdke: ^^
<mdke> nope
<mdke> nice work
<robotgeek> cool, my wiki article for today is done
<robotgeek> mdke: the other pages now may be redirected here, maybe?
<robotgeek> mdke: the only issue is that VimSyntaxHighlighting has a spanish translation, i think
<mdke> if its duplicate material, sure
<mdke> don't worry about the translation
<robotgeek> hmm, okay. does it handle automatically?
<robotgeek> mdke: question, how do i setup redirects?
<robotgeek> maybe i don't have privileges to do that, so could someone do it for me? VimSyntaxHighlighting & DocbookVim to redirect to VimHowto
<robotgeek> mdke: ^^ :)
<mdke> robotgeek, HelpOnProcessingInstructions
<robotgeek> mdke: thanks
<robotgeek> i need to learn all this stuff
<jsgotangco> hey mdke robotgeek 
<robotgeek> hey jsgotangco 
<robotgeek> i'm burning the dapper flight cd as we speak. will be trying it out in a bit
<jsgotangco> heh
<jsgotangco> spiffy
<robotgeek> i setup the redirects, thanks for the help
* robotgeek goes and looks at CategoryCleanup for the next targets
<mdke> robotgeek, btw can you mail the list with the pages you clean up, I'll include them in the next newsletter
<robotgeek> mdke: hmm, yes. will do
<mdke> and any other new pages you happen to see :) 
<robotgeek> yeah, i've identified the Compile* pages
<mdke> i can't see why there would be a need for Compiling Mplayer
<robotgeek> mdke: actually CompilingSoftware, ConfigureMakeInstall and one more i can't recall right now
<mdke> i mean, there is a page called CompileMplayerHowto, but I dont know why it exists.
<robotgeek> true, i think it's very old
<robotgeek> why is in Category Documentation?
<mdke> jjesse, btw releasenotes doesn't validate
<jjesse> mdke: hmmm i thought it did, i''l change it then
<robotgeek> hmm, i am making a screenshot script, i'll keep you guys posted
<mdke> jjesse, nice, thanks. i'll fix the builds
<jjesse> mdke: no problem, slow morning at work 
<mdke> done
<jjesse> mdke: did you ever get w/ riddell and figure out why the makefile was changed?
<mdke> he couldn't remember
<robotgeek> mdke: i mailed the docteam list as requested
<mdke> robotgeek_away, nice. couple of points of redirects: you can just delete pages which are not prominent and might cause confusion while searching. Also, when making a redirect, nuke the whole content of the page apart from the #REDIRECT  line
<robotgeek> mdke: hmm, is that because it still shows up in text search?
<robotgeek> another one for review, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CompilingSoftware 
<robotgeek> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ConfigureMakeMakeInstall could be merged with the above
<robotgeek> mdke: okay, done with the redirect stuff. 
<robotgeek> okay, i'm going to bed. Please tell me if i need to add more information, or if "CompilingSoftware" can come out of CategoryCleanup
<robotgeek> in about 15 minutes :)
<Burgwork> robotgeek, we trust you judgement. Be Bold!
<Burgwork> s/you/your
<robotgeek> Burgwork: thank you, okay. I will do the necessary 
<robotgeek> done, will put the NetworkPrinting* articles together. I am vary about editing the content on it as i have actually never installed a printer on linux
<jjesse> in the server guide do you guys talk about mysql server?
<jjesse> cause in dapper things are little goofy if you do :(
<jjesse> found out the hard way
<robotgeek> jjesse: details?
<jjesse> umm trying to figure it out, but an apt-get update followed by apt-get dist-upgrade changed mysql server for me
<jjesse> i could no longer connect
<jjesse> boy the forums are slow :(
<robotgeek> jjesse: you upgraded to dapper?
<jjesse> robotgeek: no its on a dapper box
<robotgeek> jjesse: dapper is bound to break. File a bug on malone?
<jjesse> robotgeek: looking into it, a lot of traffic on the forums about it already
<robotgeek> jjesse: cool. 
<mdke> robotgeek, nice work dude
<robotgeek> mdke: thanks
<robotgeek> mdke: aiming at one article out of CCleanup everyday
<mdke> you're exceeding that already though ;)
<robotgeek> i'll make up for it tommorow :)
<robotgeek> i'll soon hit wireless, and that's a beast
<robotgeek> fortunately, that's where i have most experience :)
<mdke> there has been some good work on wireless recently
<mdke> it's just a question of organising the material
<robotgeek> i've seen the WiFiTroubleshooting, very nice
<robotgeek> We need to come up with a good scheme for the listing page, it isn't very friendly
<mgalvin> jdub: like bad religion?
<mgalvin> they have a song entitled Ten in 2010, hehe (/me is listening to some of my old CD's :))
#ubuntu-doc 2006-01-24
<trojkolka> i got a problem and i know there is a lot in google about this topic but those ' solutions'  doesnt help for me :( My windows share content cannot be viewed. I can access my ubuntu computer with windows xp but the otherway around is quite impossible still ubuntu finds my computer but cannot access it
<trojkolka> does anyone has a working solution?
* Burgundavia kicks the wiki\
* Kyral hears the Wiki cry out in pain
<Burgundavia> Kyral, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuMac <-- can you try and move that to Ubuntu.Mac ?
<Kyral> no
<Kyral> I mean it doesn't work
<Kyral> but changing it to "Ubuntu.mac" works :p
<Burgundavia> it needs to .Mac
<Burgundavia> bloody hell, @#$!@#$$# wiki
<Kyral> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Ubuntu_%2eMac
<Burgundavia> Kyral, none of those help because of this https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/ubuntu-dot-mac
<Kyral> Then change the spec?
<Burgundavia> can't, no edit rights
<Burgundavia> plus lots of people have linked to Ubuntu.Mac now
<Kyral> Which doesn't exist lol
<Burgundavia> which I just recreated
<Kyral> huh?
<Burgundavia> we hit digg and linuxtoday with that
<Kyral> I changed the name back
<Kyral> eh?
<Burgundavia> I made .Mac redirect to Mac
<Kyral> ah
<Kyral> I almost put "Because Corey Told Me To" in the reason for renaming ;P
<Burgundavia> hey, fair enough
<Burgundavia> http://www.linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2006-01-18-034-26-NW-DB-HL <--- aw bloody hell
<Burgundavia> bloody hell, 2 of the top for hits on digg under linux/unix are that ubuntguide reborn and the .Mac stuff
<robitaille> which tells you that the masses think they like "easy/simple" guides and a concept like the .Mac for linux...
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> stupidity of the crowd, anyone?
* Burgundavia is in a foul mood
<Kyral> nwo I am too
<Burgundavia> someone commented at linuxtoday about the dangers of doing all your thinking in the open
<Kyral> We were SUPPOSED to do our lab build on Ubuntu
<Kyral> I had metapackages and everything rerady
<Kyral> and in like an hour, the day before we are supposed to install the build, they change it over to Fedora
<Burgundavia> ugh, you poor man
* Burgundavia is subjected to FC4 at work
<Kyral> I wanna SCREEM
<Kyral> I wanna KILL them
<Kyral> Its like "I did all this work, then then BAM!"
<robitaille> I'm the other way at work, we are finally getting a couple of Ubuntu boxes...the rest of the linux boxes  are Mandrake
<Burgundavia> who made the decision?
<Kyral> the team lead
<Burgundavia> why so late?
<Kyral> I HAVE NO IDEA
<Burgundavia> robitaille, Ubuntu or Kubuntu?
<Kyral> "there were some issues about Devel stuff"
<Burgundavia> the guys at VLUG attack me all the time, claiming that they cannot get a kernel to compile on Ubuntu
<Burgundavia> I told them to go use Gentoo and shut up
<robitaille> Ubuntu + kde-desktop on top;  users will be able to choose
<Kyral> thats bullshit
<Kyral> I custom compiled 15 kernels
<Kyral> with GCC 4 mind you :D
<Kyral> We target Joe Sixpack so much that we annilate the geeks
<Kyral> like not installing Build-Essential by default
<Burgundavia> geeks can find it and the rest of us have more secure machines
<Burgundavia> and my stock answer "Nothing is stopping from using Gentoo"
<Kyral> I'm trying to gain Ubuntu resepct...
<Burgundavia> which I usually followup with "Just don't give Gentoo to your mother"
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia: ping?
<robotgeek> Burgundavia: :)
<robotgeek> the wiki seems terribly slow, sigh
<robotgeek> wow, as soon as i complain, it opens up. :)
<robotgeek> jsgotangco: ping
<jsgotangco> robotgeek: pong
<robotgeek> jsgotangco: hmm, i found about 5 different articles on package building, with various details
<robotgeek> now, i know there's a package building guide underway, so what should i do
<jsgotangco> hmm that would depend on the relevance of the content
<robotgeek> hmm, we already have a CompileSoftware page
<jsgotangco> im not familiar with the subject matter though
<robotgeek> this should probably take it to the next step, to sort of mak packages the Ubuntu way, may provide a gentle introduction
<jsgotangco> so i can't make an educated guess at least
<robotgeek> hmm, i would have edited the NetworkPrinter* articles, however I am not sure of the subject matter
<robotgeek> CreateDebPackageHowto CreatePackageFromSourcePackage HowToBuildDebianPackagesFromScratch (the most detailed) HowtoCreateNewPackages PackageBuilding 
<robotgeek> damn, LaserJock_away is away :)
<robotgeek> jsgotangco: thanks anyways, i'll stay away from them as well :)
<jsgotangco> np sorry im not to keen on editing docs im not familiar with
<robotgeek> i know tha basics, not too much. i'll move on to the GPG articles :)
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, pong
<robotgeek> if an article links to the forums, what should i do? (any licensing issues?)
<Burgundavia> robotgeek, no problem
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia: nvm i already forgot
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, rofl
* Burgundavia grumbles quietly at himself
<robotgeek> Burgundavia: cool
<robotgeek> where are you folks from? so i can get an understanding of timezones etc
<Burgundavia> robotgeek, utc -8 (west coast Canada) Madpilot, robitaille and I live in the same city
<robotgeek> I'm utc -6 so, not much of a time difference (TX)
<mdke> utc +0
<jsgotangco> im in +8 but just ignore me i can go to meetings anyways
<robotgeek> my weird schedule puts me right in sync with mdke and jsgotangco :)
<Burgundavia> LaserJock is -8 (-7)
<robotgeek> hmm, i think i should start working in "regular" hours
<robotgeek> okay, back to editing articles then. 
<poningru> oh jeez
<poningru> ubuntuguide is back
<mdke> yes
<mdke> although the url hasn't been moved
<mdke> there must be about 5 ubuntuguides around the place
* mdke is tired of waiting for new svn commit members
* mdke composes angry email
<jsgotangco> mdke: really, let's just move it to our server pronto or use bzr
<jsgotangco> fine :)
<jjesse> doc team meeting today?
<jjesse> i always forget
<jjesse> morning jsgotangco 
<jjesse> or whatever time of day it is for you :)
<jsgotangco> heh
<jsgotangco> just a few minutes before it hits friday
<jsgotangco> how's your week going?
<jjesse> going well, chatting with someone on #kubuntu-devel that wants to look at gettign started on kubuntu-docs :)
<jsgotangco> were you able to receive the email about the germain translation/
<jjesse> umm checking mail
<jjesse> hmmm must have missed it
<jsgotangco> crap i've missed you guys
<jsgotangco> hehe
<jsgotangco> let me reforward it again
<jjesse> grin
<jjesse> you all moved now?
<jjesse> welcome perofal
<perofal> :)
<jjesse> jsgotangco: perofal is looking to help w/ ubuntu/kubuntu docs
<jjesse> we were talking on #kubuntu-devel
<jsgotangco> jjesse: forwarded
<jsgotangco> ohhhhhh
<jsgotangco> well let's see what happens after mdke sent an email/rant/whatever about svn access
<jjesse> i enjoyed that email, thought "about time that was sent" :)
<perofal> :-)
<jjesse> feature freeze started correct?
<jsgotangco> yep
<jsgotangco> we'll be able to make solid changes already that's in for sure
<jjesse> now to tackle the quicjguide :)
<jsgotangco> i think we can make better progress if we focus on just 2 docs for now imo
<jsgotangco> what do you think?
<perofal> ... looks like I have to change to dapper drake
<jjesse> what 2 docs would you suggest?
<jjesse> the releasenotes are "done" 
<jsgotangco> update the kquickguide
<jsgotangco> hmm
<perofal> I will install dapper drake in 2 hrs
<perofal> ok?
<jsgotangco> sure
<jsgotangco> i've just finished downloading kubuntu flight 3 last night
<jsgotangco> but i'll take time to install it tommorow
<jjesse> i was talking about the kquickguide
<perofal> need to finish some shi** I have the flight 3  iso somewere in my hd :)
<jjesse> releasenotes are done and now its time for quickguide
<jsgotangco> damn the upload changes for dapper are updating almost every minute
<jsgotangco> jjesse: http://www.kubuntu.linuxfuehrerschein.de/doku.php
<jjesse> i noticed that
<jjesse> cool
<jsgotangco> night
<robotgeek> jsgotangco: ping
<jsgotangco> robotgeek: pong heh just in time i was about to sleep
<robotgeek> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/GpgHowto 
<robotgeek> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/GpgHowto to replace GPGKey GnuPrivacyGuardHowto
<jsgotangco> can you make a redirect instaed of deleting GPGKey and GnuPrivacyGuardHowto
<robotgeek> yeah, i was about to delete this page. this was for testing only
<robotgeek> just redirect GPGKey to GnuPrivacyGaurdHowto
<robotgeek> jsgotangco: all done
<robotgeek> hey bshumate 
<mdke> hi perofal 
<mdke> welcome
<robotgeek> later all, back to bed :)
* Ng was just perusing the starter guide... I think I'm gonna try and get involved to help improve it ;)
<mdke> Ng, that would be good. shout if you need any help getting involved
<Ng> I was just about to ask where to start, but I see a url in the topic
<Ng> :)
<perofal> mdke : thankx
<robotgeek> mdke: GnuPrivacyGuardHowto one more down :)
* robotgeek forgets the ppl can scroll up
<perofal> mdke : I want to help :) 
<Ng> I've been hanging out in #ubuntu for a while now and there are many many questions that the starter guide could cover that would help people there - assuming it can be made discoverable enough
<mdke> robotgeek, nice work, albeit with a long name
<mdke> perofal, that's great. kubuntu docs need your help
<robotgeek> mdke: hmm, true. can add redirects to make it happen. i want to add one more section before i get it out of CategoryCleanup
<mdke> how about just remove "Howto"
<mdke> redirects are confusing when users do searches, don't forget
<mdke> so we don't want too many unless they are necessary
<robotgeek> hmm, the searches don't redirect automagically?
<mdke> if there are two pages, one of which is a redirect, they will appear as two pages if you search on page names
<mdke> unsurprisingly, because they are two different pages with names
<mdke> so it's justifiable to have two pages, called GPG and GnuPrivacyGuard, but not pages with the same common search string in the titles
<robotgeek> true, but the search should probably figure out that one is a redirect to the other, and only display the other 
<mdke> it doesn't
<mdke> i don't think
<robotgeek> it doesn't, but it should :)
<robotgeek> anyways, the only other page pointing to this one now is GPGKey, so no issues in this case
<mdke> ah good
<mdke> maybe just kick the "Howto", if the page is quite young
<robotgeek> the longer page was called howto, so i merged it into that one. 
<mdke> i mean, delete "Howto" from the page name, leaving it "GnuPrivacyGuard"
<robotgeek> mdke: okay, will do after i add a section to it. later tonite
<robotgeek> LaserJock: there are atleast 5 articles on the wiki about packaging, if i start putting it together, would you be able to guide me on the technical questions?
<mdke> :( no response to my email to -devel about svn access
<LaserJock> robotgeek: perhaps, I'm still learning myself
<Ng> mdke: how should non-members send their proposed updates - like if I want to take a big stick to the starter guide would you want a patch to whatever the source format is, or a fresh copy, or what? :)
<LaserJock> mdke: I know, they are sooo busy. elmo never got around to syncing quite a few MOTU packages before UVF
<mdke> Ng, patch to the source yeah.
<Ng> mdke: split up by section? or just a big lump?
<mdke> Ng, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Contribute
<robotgeek> LaserJock: hmm, okay. 
<Ng> mdke: ah, thanks
<mdke> Ng, my advice is to keep it small at first because it will be easier for us to check. For large scale changes, mail the list and discuss your ideas
<robotgeek> i'll cut paste from the packaging guide too, LaserJock 
<Ng> cool, I like docbook :)
<Ng> mdke: ok
<mdke> Ng, welcome aboard
<Ng> mdke: save that till I actually do something. I do like working with db though and I enjoy and have some experience writing, so I expect to :)
<mdke> LaserJock, busy is an excuse but it's not really good enough: he promised to do commit requests within 48 hours, and has never ever done it. We need to be able to control it ourselves
<mdke> Ng, great
<LaserJock> mdke: I agree
<mdke> i might play around with setting up an svn archive on the server
<LaserJock> robotgeek: so you are wanting to put together the wiki pages on packaging into one page?
<robotgeek> LaserJock: the pages there are half baked, not one of them is complete in any respect
<LaserJock> robotgeek: could you give me a list of them?
<robotgeek> LaserJock: one sec
<mdke> LaserJock, didn't you compile a list once?
<LaserJock> mdke, perhaps. oh yes, w.u.c/UbuntuPackagingGuide/Resources i believe
<LaserJock> mdke: thanks for reminding me ;-)
<mdke> robotgeek, ^
<robotgeek> CreateDebPackageHowto CreatePackageFromSourcePackage HowToBuildDebianPackagesFromScratch HowtoCreateNewPackages PackageBuilding ( DebootstrapChroot PbuilderHowto are related, but fine ATM)
<robotgeek> i need to make a firefox thing for that
<robotgeek> i mean, typing HowtoCreateNewPackages will take me to w.u.c/HowtoCreateNewPackages
<LaserJock> robotgeek: are they all on the link ^^ ?
<robotgeek> Not all, i'll add them in then
<LaserJock> robotgeek: ok, great
<robotgeek> nice, the firefox thing to do that was easy :)
<robotgeek> LaserJock: done
<LaserJock> robotgeek: I'm sure at least some of those wiki pages can be merge together
<robotgeek> I'll just work on putting those 5/6 pages together in a sane way
<robotgeek> i do all of my editing offline, so no issues. (can't type without vim )
<LaserJock> robotgeek: ok, there is two different packaging's going on
<LaserJock> robotgeek: one is packaging for personal use (checkinstall)
<LaserJock> robotgeek: and the other is packaging for inclusion in Ubuntu (much more involved)
<LaserJock> robotgeek: you might want to try to keep those seperate
<robotgeek> LaserJock: yes, i understand that. 
<LaserJock> robotgeek: ok, good
<LaserJock> robotgeek: have at it! :-)
<robotgeek> i have mentioned to use CheckInstall method after CompileSoftware
<robotgeek> so, home users will be happy with that
<robotgeek> Compiling debs the "right" way is more confusing :)
<robotgeek> it's a good opportunity to get all my information right 
<robotgeek> later LaserJock 
<LaserJock> cya robotgeek_zzz 
<jjesse> about the starter guide wasn't that getting roled into the desktopguide?
<Burgwork> jjesse, yes
<jjesse> does anyone know the status of desktopguide then?
<Burgwork> rob stoffers was working on it, but he apparently is awol right now
<jjesse> thats what i was afraid of
#ubuntu-doc 2006-01-25
<keithhhhhhhhhh> Hello ;)
<LaserJock> hi keithhhhhhhhhh 
<keithhhhhhhhhh> laser- have you been using ubuntu long?
<LaserJock> since Hoary
<keithhhhhhhhhh> When is that?
<LaserJock> umm, something like last May or early June
<keithhhhhhhhhh> hehe ok
<keithhhhhhhhhh> looks great so Im thinking about playing with it
<LaserJock> have you tried other linux distros before?
<keithhhhhhhhhh> a little
<keithhhhhhhhhh> I can navigate 
<keithhhhhhhhhh> I just like the concept of only one program per task...from what I understand that is Ubuntu
<keithhhhhhhhhh> Ive tried other distros
<keithhhhhhhhhh> but after installing I find it hellish figure what I actually installed
<keithhhhhhhhhh> hmmm I trying to remember what the dos prompt is callled
<keithhhhhhhhhh> terminal?
<LaserJock> yep
<LaserJock> well, if you stick with it Ubuntu should be great
<keithhhhhhhhhh> Is there any terminal applications in the base install of ubuntu?
<LaserJock> sometimes you won't be necessarily used to the way things are done, but there is plenty of good documentation and help
<keithhhhhhhhhh> cool
<LaserJock> sure, there are lots of terminal apps. But I think you should be able to do most everything without using the terminal
<LaserJock> a lot of us find the terminal is very powerful though
<keithhhhhhhhhh> oh ya sure
<keithhhhhhhhhh> I just want to know if there is programs in the base install
<LaserJock> lots of them
<keithhhhhhhhhh> hmmm
<LaserJock> not that you have to use them
<keithhhhhhhhhh> Is there an decent Ubuntu book that can be puchased?
<keithhhhhhhhhh> actually I like terminal programs too ;)
<LaserJock> I think there are a few being written but I'm not sure if there is one out already
<LaserJock> help.ubuntu.com is a good resource
<LaserJock> as is the wiki: wiki.ubuntu.com
<keithhhhhhhhhh> so then how the *(&())* will I know what I installed
<keithhhhhhhhhh> cool thanks ;)
<LaserJock> well, you can look in the menu and you can look in synaptic (the package manager)
<keithhhhhhhhhh> bookmarking those sites
<keithhhhhhhhhh> ya I could except the terminal programs arent listed
<LaserJock> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UserDocumentation is a good place to start on the wiki
<keithhhhhhhhhh> cool thanks
<LaserJock> hmm, well. I wouldn't give up to soon. Sometimes the way linux does things is a bit different, but usually it is done for a good reason
<keithhhhhhhhhh> do you think it will work on a p200 with 80megs of ram?
<LaserJock> ummm, maybe. that's pretty marginal
<keithhhhhhhhhh> (I tried a live disk on my current system p4 3.06 and of course it ran well)
<LaserJock> usually linux uses a lot of RAM
<keithhhhhhhhhh> ya I was thinking that
<keithhhhhhhhhh> ya I noticed that also ;)
<keithhhhhhhhhh> I have some free time next week so Im thinking about getting an old laptop
<keithhhhhhhhhh> throwing linux on it and putting it into the living room
<LaserJock> anyway, the documentation at help.ubuntu.com (also in the menu at System -> Help) and the wiki should help you to figure out what programs do what
<LaserJock> you might consider Xubuntu
<keithhhhhhhhhh> oh interesting I never heard of that
<keithhhhhhhhhh> I assume Xubuntu runs off the x window system eh
<keithhhhhhhhhh> ?
<LaserJock> it actually uses XFCE as the desktop instead of Gnome.
<LaserJock> it is a bit lighter
<keithhhhhhhhhh> never heard of that XFCE
<LaserJock> http://www.xfce.org/
<LaserJock> what you can do I think is do a server instal of Ubuntu which just installs the minimum amout of programs (maybe not even X)
<LaserJock> and then you install xubuntu-desktop which pulls in the other programs you need.
<keithhhhhhhhhh> that would actually a really cool idea thanks
<LaserJock> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/InstallingXubuntu has more info
<LaserJock> it might take a little bit of terminal work, but for an old computer it should work better
<keithhhhhhhhhh> hmmmmm
<keithhhhhhhhhh> thanks for the advice
<keithhhhhhhhhh> I need to make this as idiot proof as possible
<keithhhhhhhhhh> because my family will use this for the internet also ;)
<keithhhhhhhhhh> I think I need to make a list of essential software ;)
<LaserJock> actually, if you do the xubuntu-install it should have most everything you will need
<keithhhhhhhhhh> sounds great
<keithhhhhhhhhh> Im reading right now :)
<tck> anyone use xfce4 ?
<LaserJock> I have in the past
<LaserJock> been a while though
<tck> the xfce4-terminal
<tck> it opens up quite large
<tck> any way to make it smaller ?
<LaserJock> hmm, I don't know I'm afraid. Sorry
<Burgwork> tck, you are better to ask in #xubuntu
<LaserJock> hi theCore 
<theCore> Good evening, LaserJock 
<theCore> so, anything new?
<LaserJock> oh, lots of stuff in the MOTU world, not so much in the doc world
<theCore> eh ... we should do a doc-o-thon some day
<LaserJock> I agree. I just need to get some real life work in there somewhere
* Burgwork invisions spinny flashing lights and ugly geeks
<crimsun> hey I protest that. I'm surrounded by attractive young ladies, thank you very much.
<Burgwork> sadly I am not
<theCore> Burgwork, were do you work?
<Burgwork> theCore, Userful
<LaserJock> I'm surrounded by lasers and machines, not a whole lot of people
<Kyral> lol
<LaserJock> that's why I'm here. I can get my human contact ;-)
<Kyral> lol
* crimsun chuckles
<Kyral> Jeez when is the installer coming out
<Kyral> Then I can start pulling my weight around here
<Burgwork> Kyral, RSN
<Kyral> RSN?
<Burgwork> yep
<crimsun> ("real soon now")
<Kyral> lol
<Kyral> okay
<LaserJock> dang it! 2 days in a row I've spilt cider on my desk. When will they make a geek-proof mug?
<Kyral> haha
<Burgwork> http://beaglewiki.org/Beagle_UI_Hackfest <-- take a look at the screenshot closely
<keithhhhhhhhhh> if its alcoholic cider
<keithhhhhhhhhh> that would explain alot
<LaserJock> keithhhhhhhhhh: I don't even have that excuse
<keithhhhhhhhhh> hehehehe
<theCore> keithhhhhhhhhh, do you know that you have too many `h' in your nick? ;)
<keithhhhhhhhhh> ya sick of typing in keith
<keithhhhhhhhhh> only to find out its taken
<keithhhhhhhhhh> hehe
<keithhhhhhhhhh> also just started IRCing
<keithhhhhhhhhh> I havent IRCed in a long time
<theCore> do you really need the 7 other`h' ?
<theCore> ;)
<theCore> Burgwork, sweet
<theCore> Burgwork, is it just me or they are really using .NET ?
* theCore wonder if there are some connection problems out there
<jaguardawg> hello?
<theCore> jaguardawg, hi!
<jaguardawg> can i just ask a question whenever?
<jaguardawg> has anyone else experienced a 'crc error' when trying to install ubuntu?
<theCore> crc error?
<nalioth> hi y'all
<nalioth> who is responsible for this >>> http://help.ubuntu.com/starterguide/C/index.html
<jaguardawg> that's what it said
<theCore> I don't did you tried the ask the #ubuntu
<jaguardawg> i booted the computer, and chose 'enter', because i am not setting up a server
<jaguardawg> where is that?
<theCore> at #ubuntu
<theCore> it is the official support channel
<jaguardawg> it thought that was this channel?
<nalioth> the reason i ask 'who is responsible' is that i find its layout disconcerting
<theCore> here is the documentation channel
<nalioth> jaguardawg: no, #ubuntu is the official support channel
<theCore> nalioth, this is the old starter guide
<nalioth> it's still linked from help.ubuntu.com
<theCore> the new is located at http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/desktopguide/C/index.html
<theCore> new one*
<nalioth> all i'd like to point out (i'da fixed it myself if it was the wiki) is that the revisions should be down at the bottom
<nalioth> i've never been to h.u.c before now, and the first thing i click on for ubuntu starter guide is the above URL
<nalioth> if it's old, it doesnt need to be on h.u.c, yes?
<nalioth> i clicked on "ubuntu starter guide (multiple pages)"
<theCore> help.ubuntu.com is updated at each release of ubuntu 
<nalioth> theCore: that has nothing to do with this. i'd hope the h.u.c was updated more often than that
<theCore> BTW, the docteam doesn't really control h.u.c
<nalioth> theCore: ok. who does then?
<theCore> the ubuntu webmasters
<nalioth> i thought the doc team was in charge of all documentation (web, etc0
<theCore> true, but they control h.u.c
<theCore> they don't*
<theCore> however, I don't know much about it
<nalioth> this makes no sense to me. now i have to hunt up someone else
<theCore> try to send a email to the mailing-list
<nalioth> <sigh>
<nalioth> ok, sorry to bother you folks
<nalioth> ty for the info
<theCore> bshumate, do you know who are the folks that maintain help.ubuntu.com ?
<Burgundavia> salut robitaille 
<robitaille> Bonsour Burgundavia
<robitaille> or better bonsoir...
<bhuvan> ping robotgeek
<robotgeek> hey bhuvan 
<bhuvan> robotgeek, where are you from ?
<robotgeek> bhuvan: india, now in TX
<bhuvan> cool! which city in india ?
<robotgeek> hyderabad
<bhuvan> excellent!
<robotgeek> bhuvan: you?
<bhuvan> india, chennai!
<robotgeek> i am actually a tamilian :)
<bhuvan> glad to hear and me too!
<robotgeek> where in chennai? i have relatives there (mylapore, mambalam)
<bhuvan> i stay at adambakkam (near guindy)
<robotgeek> nice, near the IIT?
<bhuvan> robotgeek, yep
<robotgeek> nice bhuvan been there once or twice. not too smart to get in :)
<bhuvan> ilugc (indian linux user group of chennai) meet there every month
<robotgeek> hmm, 3 years since i left home
<ompaul> moin - brain is not working this morning, there is a function somewhere where people can click on a button to submit hardware anyone got docs on same?
<ompaul> please allow me rephrase that - anyone got a pointer to docs on same
<mdke_> applications -> system tools -> Ubuntu Device Database -> Help
<ompaul> mdke_, sorry was working on other stuff, again thanks
<jjesse> morning mgalvin 
<mgalvin> jjesse: good morning
<mgalvin> good morning all
<mdke> hello
<robotgeek> did anyone else come up with an idea for a screencast introduction to ubuntu (or maybe someone did, and decided that it would not fit on the CD?)
<Kyral> hmm
* Kyral pegs a Documentation Bounty
<jjesse> i don't think that was ever finalized?
<robotgeek> i think it would be nice, and people might prefer to do screencasts, rather than document
* robotgeek goes to compile xvidcap
<mdke> there is one in the works
<mdke> a flash presentation which runs during the install, i think
<mdke> dunno if it will happen
<robotgeek> why flash?
<robotgeek> GPL Flash needs to get more stable, i think
<mdke> dunno
<mdke> they are gonna keep it simple
<robotgeek> i'll try out amd maybe submit statistics on sizes and etc
<mdke> the technical side is being handled by a professional i think
<jjesse> i hope first they remove the require to be connected to the internet to have a nice and easy install :(
<jjesse> do you know how much of a pain it is to be a dial-up user trying to install dapper?
<robotgeek> ah okay, i'll  stick to the docs then 
<robotgeek> jjesse: really, you mean for the universe stuff?
<jjesse> robotgeek: no i mean for a basic install, when you install dapper it goes out to the internet to download a release file which didn't occur during breezy install
<jjesse> and if you aren't connected via a network to high speed or something like that you have to do an "expert" mode
<robotgeek> jjesse: hmm, i did not notice that
<jjesse> robotgeek: do you have highspeed?
<jjesse> or broadband?
<robotgeek> yeah, adsl
<jjesse> try an install w/o connected to the internet
<robotgeek> hmm, okay. i have a flight3 install pending, for kubuntu
<jjesse> it also scnas the different repositories when configuring apt which means once again internet connectivity :(
<mgalvin> jjesse: by the time dapper is released that should be fixed... the installer should not need the inet
<jjesse> mgalvin: it was/is a frustrating part of installing dapper
<mgalvin> i understand... i have cable... but oh man i remember those painful dialup days
<robotgeek> screencasting lacks a good tool :) 
<robotgeek> i'll stick to screenshots + text documentation . back to the wiki
<mdke> hey jeffsch 
<jeffsch> hey man
<jeffsch> howz it goin?
<mdke> good thanks
<mdke> i'm just on my way out, just wanted to say thanks for sorting out some stuff in generic/
<jeffsch> np
<mdke> wrt the Makefile, we don't need packageguide or serverguide in there because they'll be called by the ubuntu/kubuntu Makefiles
<mdke> currently for the preview server they are in ubuntu/Makefile
<mdke> anyhow, hope you're well, got to run
<robotgeek> later mdke 
<mdke> byee
<jeffsch> cya
<robotgeek> Am i blind, or are these two pages same https://wiki.ubuntu.com/OrinocoMonitorKismet2005Hoary 
<robotgeek> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/OrinocoMonitorKimset2005Hoary
<robotgeek> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CategoryCleanup 220 221
<mgalvin> in case anyone is interested i just wrote up (on my blog) how to use qemu to create vmware images and use them with vmware player so it can all be done freely
<Kyral> Wikipage?
<mgalvin> i find it useful for testing and taking my screen shots
<mgalvin> my blog (for now)
<jjesse> mgalvin: awesome, i use qemu all the time running dapper and debian in qemu right now
<jjesse> what is your blog page
<Kyral> Make one I meant lol
<mgalvin> http://www.simplifiedcomplexity.com/
<Kyral> Yea! Now I can do a LFS Install :D
<Kyral> without messing with my parts ;P
<mgalvin> Kyral, i'll clean it up and make a wiki page when i have some more free time
<mgalvin> :)
<Kyral> what blogservice is that?
<Kyral> gak no Debpack for VMWare Player
<mgalvin> Kyral: it my own hosted site and i am just using wordpress
<jjesse> you have to download it from vmare.com
<Kyral> yah
<Kyral> stull
<Kyral> NO DEBPACK ;P
<Kyral> Just RPM and Tarball
<Kyral> hmmm
<Kyral> Now I can test MANY distros :D
<Kyral> SuSE here I come ;P
<mgalvin> i worked out how to do it b/c qemu is simply to slow for me to deal with when i reinstall dapper so often :)
<Kyral> lol
<Kyral> I just wanna try SuSE
<Kyral> and maybe give Gentoo another whirl
<Kyral> I wonder how much those images can be compressed?
<mgalvin> not sure
<LaserJock> mgalvin: so you just install into the vmware using an .iso?
<mgalvin> LaserJock: yup (or a physical CD if you want)
<mgalvin> ide1:0.fileName = /home/mgalvin/Desktop/dapper-install-i386.iso
<mgalvin> just set that line to the location of the iso you want to use
<LaserJock> mgalvin: do you think a liveCD would work?
<mgalvin> LaserJock: um, i didn't try yet, but it should probably work
<LaserJock> I have .iso from a couple of liveCD's that I wanted to test. That might work well
<LaserJock> I'll have to try it out
<mgalvin> go for it, let me know how it turns out
<mgalvin> i'll probably try it when i get home too
<Kyral> ..how would I mount 5 SuSE Install CDs?
<Kyral> in VMWare..
<mgalvin> Kyral: ouch... um, there should be a way to switch the iso image, lemme check
<mgalvin> OR, use a dvd iso
<Kyral> DVD Iso Not on my local mirror ;P
<crimsun> should be on umn.edu, though, and you have I2 to there
<Kyral> Clarkson?
<Kyral> Yah I actuallu lol
<crimsun> nearly all US unis are on i2
<Kyral> what is it Mirror?
<Kyral> mirror.umm.edu?
<crimsun> mirror.cs.umn.edu, which seems to be hosed atm?
<LaserJock> mdke: did you see the link for bug 29162 ?
<Burgundavia> LaserJock, how good is your Ubuntu server knowledge?
<Burgundavia> Kyral, what about you ^
<Kyral> uhh
<Kyral> Depends
<LaserJock> uhh, what do you mean?
<Kyral> you mean like running a server?
<Kyral> Or the Package itself?
<Burgundavia> writing some stuff on it
<Kyral> I know some about SSH
<Kyral> and IPTables
<Kyral> but I haven't really messed with server
<Kyral> though I have been meaning too
<Burgundavia> LaserJock, do you think you could write a piece on the server?
<LaserJock> I really don't know anything about servers
<Burgundavia> ah, ok
<Kyral> I could learn hehehe
<Kyral> VMWare here I come ;P
<LaserJock> Burgundavia: you might try a call for contribution from -motu or -devel
<Burgundavia> ya
<mgalvin> later all
<LaserJock> darn, he left
<LaserJock> I can't get his .vmx to work
<Burgundavia> anybody got an email for bhuvan?
<Burgundavia> never mind
<Kyral> okuch
<Kyral> LRM wasn't updated...so I had to recompile the NVidia Module
<LaserJock> I just switched to nv for a while 
<robotgeek> Burgundavia: ping
<Burgundavia> robotgeek, pongers
<LaserJock> mgalvin: here?
<mgalvin> LaserJock: yup, whats up
<robotgeek> Burgundavia: do you think it's a good idea to move all the wireless configuration pages to something like a WirelessHardware/<Chipset>
<LaserJock> mgalvin: your vmware thing worked for a livecd. The only thing is I had to replace all the quotes
<Burgundavia> robotgeek, sounds sane to me
<Burgundavia> LaserJock, you can use qemu to do a livecd as well
<LaserJock> Burgundavia: that's what i'm doing
<mgalvin> LaserJock: sweet :)
<robotgeek> Burgundavia: of course, redirects will be in place
#ubuntu-doc 2006-01-26
<Burgundavia> robotgeek, do a google search for each url. If you find nothing, then you can move and not redirect
<LaserJock> mgalvin: for some reason the encoding or something didn't work, because I would get syntax errors when I tried to load it
<robotgeek> Burgundavia: ahh, nice trick
<Burgundavia> robotgeek, likely a lot of them are linked from the forums
<LaserJock> mgalvin: then found the replacing the quotes with quotes that I typed worked
<robotgeek> Burgundavia: very possible. 
<mgalvin> LaserJock: for the .vmx config you mean right?
<LaserJock> mgalvin: right
<robotgeek> HardwareSupportComponentsWirelessNetworkCards 
<mgalvin> ok, i'm am gonna try it out shortly too, thanks for the pointer :)
<robotgeek> on this one, a alpgabetical table should make it much easier. like on the ndiswrapper wiki
<LaserJock> mgalvin: I tried just copy-n-paste into nano. Maybe gedit would work better
<mgalvin> LaserJock: true
<LaserJock> mgalvin: anyway, thanks for the info. I have quite a few .isos sitting around that I've never done anything with
<LaserJock> mgalvin: a wiki page would cool ;-)
<mgalvin> LaserJock: sure, glad to help
<robotgeek> mgalvin: yes, request a wiki page :)
<robotgeek> mgalvin: i would like to do a qemu install too
<mgalvin> i'll try and whip one together shortly
<robotgeek> mgalvin: w.u.c/TakingScreenshots might help
<mgalvin> robotgeek: the method I came up with is currently described on my blog here: http://www.simplifiedcomplexity.com/
<robotgeek> mgalvin: wordpress 2.0?
<Burgundavia> mgalvin, would you mind updating TakingScreenshots with your new methods?
<mgalvin> robotgeek: yup
<mgalvin> Burgundavia: sure, i'll try and squeeze that in soon as well
<Burgundavia> mgalvin, excellent
<mgalvin> np
<robotgeek> mgalvin: i'm using that for my blog too, pretty sweet. been using it since a year, have had absolutely no issues with it. i just luv wordpress
<mgalvin> me too :)
<mgalvin> i want to make my own theme too, but alas, there are not enough hours in a day :-/
<robotgeek> mgalvin: get some theme, then modify over time
<robotgeek> Burgundavia: okay, i think i got the hang of this. i'll do it tommorow or so, just wanted to confirm before making a major change. 
<Burgundavia> robotgeek, sounds good
<robotgeek> Burgundavia: what about Alphabetical listing, is that fine too?
<Burgundavia> robotgeek, for what?
<robotgeek> HardwareSupportComponentsWirelessNetworkCards similiar to http://ndiswrapper.sourceforge.net/mediawiki/index.php/List
<robotgeek> Burgundavia: ? 
<Burgundavia> robotgeek, sounds good. Trust your own judgement
<robotgeek> Burgundavia: cool, if anything is wrong, we can always revert back :)
<Burgundavia> yep
<robotgeek> alrite, looks like i've got my work cut out. i'll sleep and start hacking away after i wake up
<robotgeek> hey Kyral 
<robotgeek> okay, some one please tell me if this is fine. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WirelessNetworking
<robotgeek> If someone has some suggestions to offer, please offer them now :)
<robotgeek> Burgundavia: ping :)
<robotgeek> mgalvin: do you have any suggestions a better name for this page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WirelessNetworking or any ideas
* mgalvin goes for a look
<robotgeek> ty
<mgalvin> robotgeek: seems ok, maybe something like WirelessNetworkingDocumentation and structure it more like UserDocumentation since it seems to have a similar content collection
<mgalvin> but there is nothing wrong with leaving it the way it is
<robotgeek> mgalvin: i don't have an issue changing the name right now, but i don't want to end up doing it later. However, WIrelessNet..Documentation is pretty long to type
<robotgeek> maybe even WifiDocs would be fine
<robotgeek> I think i'll go ahead with WifiDocs, uses common terminology, and is short
<mgalvin> robotgeek: yea i don't like long name either, WifiDocs sounds good to me, go for it
<robotgeek> cool, on it
<robotgeek> you are going to see a lot of my name in recent changes :)
<robotgeek> mgalvin: need some help
<mgalvin> robotgeek: whats up?
<robotgeek> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Rt2500WirelessCardsHowTo is not redirecting correctly to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WifiDocs/RalinkRT2500
<robotgeek> i am not able to figure out redirects to a subpage
<mgalvin> hmm, looking...
<robotgeek> so, i gave the direct url, but that's getting malformed
<mgalvin> well, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/https:/Rt2500WirelessCardsHowTo?action=show doesn't sem to exists anymore :-/
<robotgeek> yeah, but the /https: is a bug
<mgalvin> right i see that
<mgalvin> umm
<robotgeek> it works
<robotgeek> #REDIRECT != #redirect , sigh
<robotgeek> mhz: i shud have asked you in here :)
<mhz> hehehe
<mhz> sorry
<mhz> I am at 3 channels answering stuff
<mhz> :D
<robotgeek> mhz: no problem
<mgalvin> i think i got it
<mhz> robotgeek: what is the question?
<mhz> oohhhh
<mhz> yes
<mhz> lowercase
<robotgeek> i had #REDIRECT instead of #redirect, and that was causing problems redirecting
<mhz> #redirect
<mhz> yup
<robotgeek> well, i know now :)
<mhz> robotgeek: maybe this URL is your favourite
<mhz> SyntaxRefernce
<mhz> SyntaxReference
* robotgeek bookmarks
<mgalvin> robotgeek: it should work now
<robotgeek> yeah, it works 
<robotgeek> about 6 more to move, yay
<robotgeek> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WifiDocs done!
<robotgeek> Burgundavia: ping
<robotgeek> mdke: ping
<robotgeek> manicka: ping
<manicka> rg!
<robotgeek> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WifiDocs
<robotgeek> take a look
<manicka> nice :)
<robotgeek> next to merge a few howto's in the first section, like ndiswrapper
<robotgeek> and the documentation will be very easy to find. 
<manicka> good :)
<Kyral> hmm
<robotgeek> hey Kyral , long time
<Kyral> I need a new Wow! Screenshot
<manicka> it's a really important area that lots of people look for help with
<Kyral> how about a screenie of me running PC BSD, VLOS, and SuSE in VMs?
<robotgeek> shoot it up :)
<Kyral> I need the PCBSD and VLOS first ;P
<robotgeek> are we allowed to use other colors in the ubuntu wiki? other than brown i mean
<Kyral> you can set the theme to Kubuntu
<robotgeek> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HardwareSupportComponentsWirelessNetworkCards
<robotgeek> no, i mean for the values. 
<robotgeek> or tables rather, green for working, red for not working, etc
<manicka> bbl
<robotgeek> later manicka 
<Kyral> Even better
<Kyral> Gentoo in VM ;P
<MadXChat> robotgeek, nice work on the wireless pages on the wiki - lots better organized now!
<robotgeek> MadXChat: thank you
* MadXChat is Madpilot, away from home :-)
<robotgeek> ah, MadXChat i was wondering why i havent seen you for a while
<robotgeek> i've been hacking away at CategoryCleanup
<MadXChat> yeah, I'm housesitting for my grandparents
<robotgeek> hmm, okay
<MadXChat> forced to run either Win98 or Ubuntu LiveCD... bleh
<MadXChat> cool, we're down to ~350 entries in Cleanup, it was over 380 a few weeks ago!
<robotgeek> MadXChat: you should probably use the Live Cd with persistence
<MadXChat> saving settings to a partition or something? I didn't think the LiveCD did that, actually
<robotgeek> !persistence
<robotgeek> damn, ubotu aint here
<MadXChat> no bot here
<robotgeek> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LiveCDPersistence
<robotgeek> MadXChat: what do you think about different colors on the wireless page
<MadXChat> different colours how?
<robotgeek> MadXChat: green for working, red for not
<MadXChat> there's a Hardware page for wireless stuff too, isn't there? cards & USB dongles?
<robotgeek> yeah, that's the page i want add colors on
<robotgeek> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HardwareSupportComponentsWirelessNetworkCards
<MadXChat> nevermind, found it
<MadXChat> it's already got Working?/Yes/No - colour that?
<robotgeek> yeah
<MadXChat> none of the other HardwareSupport<etc> pages use colours so far
<MadXChat> I like the idea, though
<MadXChat> what's the wiki markup for coloured text? (I've forgotten...)
<robotgeek> i'll have to steal it from the table :)
<MadXChat> heh
<robotgeek>  ||<#FF8080> red ||<#80FF80> green ||<#8080FF> blue ||
<MadXChat> I still get confused by wiki markup, I know HTML/CSS markup quite well and wiki markup is close, but not **quite** the same...
<robotgeek> since i do all my editing in vim, i get syntax highlighting which helps quite a bit
<robotgeek> i always keep the SyntaxReference page handy
<MadXChat> I'm out of practice right now too...
<MadXChat> Get my Ubuntu Membership, then celebrate by doing nothing for the distro for the rest of the month! ;)
<robotgeek> lol
<MadXChat> I'm housesitting for three weeks for my grandparents, as I said, and even with the LiveCD, it's hard being away from my own machine & setup...
<robotgeek> my next to do is to put the cards in there in an alphabetical index
<robotgeek> in your absense, i've been bugging Burgundavia 
<MadXChat> good, he needs bugging!
<robotgeek> okay, to add one more section to GnuPrivacyGuardHowto and then remove it from Cleanup
<MadXChat> robotgeek, there's a fairly good GPG key section in the wiki already - can you tie the two together?
<MadXChat> never mind, I see you're ahead of me! already done - cool
<robotgeek> it's fairly complete now, i think
<MadXChat> looks good
<robotgeek> i've got 5 in 5 days 
<robotgeek> MadXChat: i'm deleting redundant articles from CategoryCleanup, this is okay?
<MadXChat> deleting the entries in Cleanup, or the entire article?
<robotgeek> the entire articles
<robotgeek> like emacs has one line apt-get install emacs
<robotgeek> FreenxHowto had very less information, and it was present in FreeNX anyways
<robotgeek> wb MadXChat2 
<MadXChat2> interesting - actually managed to lock up the LiveCD on this machine...
<robotgeek> so, what is the deletion policy for "redundant wiki pages"
<MadXChat2> is the redundant page linked to from anywhere else in the wiki?
<robotgeek> nope
<robotgeek> even the redundant page claimed it was redundant :)
<MadXChat2> does google show any links to it?
<MadXChat2> if "no", then it can probably just be put out of it's misery...
<robotgeek> MadXChat2: maybe there is a categoryDeletionCandidates
<MadXChat2> not AFAIK - you could always create it
<MadXChat2> or just kill the offending page
<robotgeek> heh, easier :)
<robotgeek> MadXChat2: later, going to bed now
<MadXChat2> later - nice work on the wiki tonight
<robotgeek> i'm planning to do a lot more :)
<robotgeek> maybe even the kubuntu docs
<robotgeek> i read that they need help, i'm able and willing :)
<MadXChat2> eww. KDE! ;)
<robotgeek> i'm using xubuntu now however, but by the time dapper comes out , i think i'll be using kde
<robotgeek> night all
<MadXChat2> hi robitaille 
<robitaille> Hi MadXChat2 
* MadXChat2 is Madpilot, in case you were wondering ;)
<MadXChat2> housesitting for my grandparents still
<MadXChat2> robitaille, you going to make the VLUG thing tomorrow?
<robitaille> MadXChat2,  can't. Saturday are busy for me;  every single kids activities seems to be on Saturdays...
<robitaille> humm... I can kill my X server trying to play a movie in Totem in Dapper.  That's no good.
<MadXChat2> of course - everyone knows parents never have things on Saturday :)
<MadXChat2> Burgundavia mentioned some trouble with X in Dapper too...
<robitaille> Dapper has been interesting in the last 48 hours.  Until earlier tonight, at every login, I was getting 54 error messages from gnome-volume-manager
<dsas> When writing a wiki page in which the user will need to edit a file they don't have privileges how should I do this?
<dsas> {{{sudo $EDITOR /etc/modules/}}} and then tell them the text (two words!) to add underneath?
<mpt__> http://easylinux.info/wiki/Ubuntu
<mpt__> What's up with that?
<mdke> mpt__, that is the new (or one of the new) versions of ubuntuguide.org
<mdke> seems the owner of ubuntuguide.org will point that domain at that guide
<mpt__> Things fall apart, the center cannot hold
<mpt__> ah well
<mdke> that's life eh
<mdke> mpt__, any progress on AboutUbuntu?
<jsgotangco> ahhh back from the land of lost inetenet connection
#ubuntu-doc 2006-01-27
<LaserJock> hi robotgeek 
<robotgeek> hey LaserJock 
<LaserJock> how's it going?
<robotgeek> busy day today, got to touch the PC only now, and i gotta run for dinnner again
<LaserJock> hmm, me too. I just got done putting in a new kitchen fauchet
<robotgeek> ah, nice
<LaserJock> but I wanted to do some doc work tonight
<robotgeek> on the packaging guide?
<LaserJock> yes
<robotgeek> nice, it served as a good resource (and still does)
<LaserJock> did you use the one on doc.ubuntu.com?
<robotgeek> yeah, the 'latest' one
<LaserJock> I actually haven't read through that all the way 
<robotgeek> i got confused by the draft version which was linked from the fridge, IIRC
<LaserJock> hmm, I didn't know about that
<robotgeek> okay LaserJock , i gotta run now. i'll be back later. i did sumbit some corrections to the guide, (typos) , you might wanna look at that, it was last month, i think
<LaserJock> robotgeek: ok, I might look at them but I'm doing a rewrite so I don't know that it will matter much
<robotgeek> hmm, okay. cya later then
<LaserJock> cya
<mhz> It this useful for the Team purposes if I don't understand DocBook>
<mhz> ?
<mhz> http://201.215.84.252/tcwiki/FitlChile?action=format&mimetype=xml/docbook
<mhz> This DocBook 'format' was generated by MoinMoin
<mhz> and if it is of any use... then I can say i can finally collaborate 
* mhz heads towards the bed now
<mhz> please let me know ASAP
<mhz> by all
<mhz> bye all
<jsgotangco> hi all
<robotgeek> hey jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> hey
* jsgotangco slowly adjusting to malone
<robotgeek> for bugs on documentation?
<jsgotangco> more of laptop mission bugs
<robotgeek> ah..
<robotgeek> i finally joined the "wiki team"
<jsgotangco> ahhh
<jsgotangco> i've seen a lot of wiki changes
<robotgeek> heh, yeah..curse me if anything's wrong :)
<mdke> robotgeek, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/News2
<robotgeek> mdke: yes, i saw that. thanks
<mdke> :)
<robotgeek> i keep refreshing that page very often. 
<robotgeek> i think you are going to need to add much more, if i stick on to my "one page per day" pace :)
<jsgotangco> hey mdke
<jsgotangco> how's things?
<mdke> robotgeek, that's good
<mdke> jsgotangco, fine thanks
<mdke> robotgeek, WPAHowto isn't in your WifiDocs collection
<robotgeek> there are a several more i found after searching more extensively. i need to add them.
<mdke> ah cool
<robotgeek> mdke: i think it's there, last link first section
<mdke> ah i didn't check, i just meant as a subpage
<mdke> fine, my bad
<robotgeek> i did not want to change the links to those, should i got and add all howto's as a subpage with redirects?
<mdke> actually I don't think subpages are such a good idea right now
<mdke> there are too many pages
<mdke> robotgeek, if you want a good task, it would be to merge all the ndiswrapper pages :D
<robotgeek> yeah, i'm refraining since i don't know a awful lot about it. 
<robotgeek> but i think i will know enuf after going thru them all 
<mdke> heh
<mdke> robotgeek, we need to get you involved in docbook too for some official docs action :D
<robotgeek> mdke: doc book shouldn't be a problem, though i dunno much about it. i've used html before, and latex too. xml will be similiar, i guess
<mdke> yep, it's real easy
<mdke> (reboots)
<jsgotangco> argghh
<jsgotangco> these regressions are irritating me
<robotgeek> having other machines around is a good thing then
<jsgotangco> yes at least anoter partition if not a new machine
<robotgeek> yeah, that too. 
<robotgeek> i'm planning to spend some time to get it working on a external usb disk
<robotgeek> that way, i can carry it around
* mdke reboots into dapper, shrieks in revulsion at the ugliness of the new update-notifier graphics
<robotgeek> lol
<jsgotangco> heh
<jsgotangco> yeah
<mdke> jeez
<jsgotangco> well
<mdke> what are they on
<jsgotangco> it needs a lot of anti-aliasing love
<jsgotangco> as well as hmmm new colors
<mdke> i can see no possible justification for a diagonal bottom line
<robotgeek> the old one was very readable, why fix it if it ain't broke?
* mdke nods at robotgeek 
<jsgotangco> well yeah
<jsgotangco> at least the logoff/shutdown dialogs are much better
<robotgeek> true, i agree with that
<mdke> the buttons are too big
<robotgeek> it's very slick and *usable*
<mdke> and there are too many of em
<mdke> but its definitely better
<jsgotangco> well its way better than the one that looked like tango icons
<mdke> i prefer this: http://bugzilla.gnome.org/attachment.cgi?id=57474&action=view
<mdke> gtg
<mdke> shopping
<jsgotangco> oh that is nice
<robotgeek> later mdke 
<robotgeek> windowzy look
<robotgeek> or was theat the mac, 
<robotgeek> yes, it's a windows look with the mac text, lol
<jsgotangco> they call it tango
<jsgotangco> heh
<robotgeek> yeah, it takes 2 to tango
<mdke> perhaps it is time to drop the html builds from ubuntu-docs now
<mdke> yelp seems to have the speed hits in dapper now, so it handles xml much quicker
<mdke> jdub, any progress on the ubuntu yelp stylesheets?
<jsgotangco> hmm yelp works in dapper?
<jsgotangco> last i check it just crashes
<SteveMyers> mdke: you have a minute?
<mhz> re
<mhz> Could anyone read my last question (9 hours ago)?
<mdke> SteveMyers, yes shoot
<SteveMyers> mind if I pm?
<mdke> mhz, i read it, but I don't understand it
<mdke> SteveMyers, ok
<mdke> mhz, that page has nothing to do with ubuntu/documentation?
<mhz> mdke: oh, sure. My question is if people (with no knowledge of DocBook nor XML) like me could use Moin1.5 to provide DockBook output you guys could use
<mdke> mhz, ah.. well you can make articles like that and then tidy up the code I suppose
<mdke> but it won't help you contribute to existing documents
<mhz> hmmm
<mdke> docbook xml is so easy to learn though dude
<mhz> mdke: why it won't help?
<mdke> mhz, because the existing documents are not in Moin, they are already in docbook, and that output is a whole article
<mdke> mhz, but seriously, it's SO easy to learn
<mhz> ohhh
<mdke> if you look at the output, it's basically just like html
<mhz> mdke: I know it is tag like
* mhz has never used tags (only in moin)
<mdke> you just write stuff, and learn as you go along
<mhz> okis
<mdke> but maybe the moin plugin can help you get used to the tags
<mhz> mdke: that was my initial thought
<mhz> but if it wont help the docing cause.. I don't see the point of keeping it
<mdke> maybe one day the plugin will be so good that we can work directly on a wiki and create xml for the distribution
<mdke> but i am fairly sure that day is not here yet
<mhz> no problem
<mhz> I needed to ask because it looked good to have it as a 'default' option in Moin 1.5
<mdke> yeah
<_jason> hi everyone, sorry to interrupt (you can get to this whenever you get a minute).  A wiki page I created was added to categoryCleanUp a while ago.  I got around to making some formatting changes.  What's the standard procedure for removing a page from CleanUp.  I would do it myself, but I think it would be a good idea to let you guys see it and suggest if something else should be changed/updated.  Here's the link: https://wiki.ubuntu
<mdke> _jason, we missed the end of that, what's the page?
<mhz> mdke: Moin guys have tried to let people (with xml knowledge) that Moin 1.5 let them work with DocBook (I imagined it was only a matter of defining s 'sheet' for the output)
<_jason> mdke: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MX1000Mouse
<mhz> let +know
<mdke> _jason, looks nice. I would remove the rst stuff, and probably remove all the terminal icons, they get in the way a bit
<mdke> _jason, I'll show you what I mean, if you don't mind me editing the page a sec
<irvin> j #ubuntu-desktop
<_jason> mdke: go for it
<mdke> _jason, you are editing it at the moment, I can't edit it
<mdke> brb
<_jason> mdke: ok, check now
<mdke> _jason, I've made a few changes and removed Cleanup
<_jason> mdke: alright cool, thanks
<mkde> man xchat-gnome rocks
<mkde> dunno why people complain
<mkde> geez it's absolutely awesome
#ubuntu-doc 2006-01-28
<bhuvan> where do we find the latest ubuntu-doc package (.deb) for breezy
<LaserJock> bhuvan: packages.ubuntu.com?
<robotgeek> hey bhuvan LaserJock 
<LaserJock> hi robotgeek 
<bhuvan> LaserJock, seems packages.ubuntu.com is either slow or down ?
<LaserJock> bhuvan: weird, it's not for me
<bhuvan> LaserJock, ok
<LaserJock> http://packages.ubuntu.com/breezy/text/ubuntu-docs is what you want I think
<LaserJock> gotta go, hope that helps bhuvan 
<Burgundavia_> robitaille, now I see you
<robitaille> yep, I'm now in.
<robitaille> how did the installfest went?
<Burgundavia_> not bad
<Burgundavia_> nobody who had never used Linux or didn't already have it on their machines
<Burgundavia_> only 6 showed
<Burgundavia_> I am already planning the next one
<robitaille> how many Ubuntu?
<Burgundavia_> only 1, but almost everybody was using ubuntu to fix and fix problems in their other distros
<robitaille> :)
<Burgundavia_> somebody doing a stage 3 gentoo install
<Burgundavia_> I guess that was a fresh install, but not exactly typical
<bhuvan> mdke, ping
<mdke> bhuvan, yeah
<bhuvan> mdke, i wish to discuss 2 things. i'm just composing the email!
<bhuvan> 1) regarding the broken sample link error. do you remember the open issue no ?
<mdke> yes
<mdke> email is good though
<bhuvan> 2) i have send an email
<bhuvan> 1) ?
<mdke> i see you edited something in the breezy branch
<mdke> you can't do that! :)
<bhuvan> yep ?
<bhuvan> i intended to address the broken "sample" links
<mdke> yeah but that branch is not going anywhere
<bhuvan> oh ok. aren't we providing updates for breezy /
<mdke> yes, but not from that branch
<bhuvan> then ?
<mdke> the breezy update was prepared from the source of the breezy package
<mdke> it should be uploaded today or tomorrow I hope
<mdke> the sample error was not addressed though, because I made the update over a month ago :(
<mdke> it has taken a month to get uploaded because there were some problems with the edubuntu-artwork package
<bhuvan> ok
<mdke> so one of the devs had to sort it out
<bhuvan> ok
<mdke> bhuvan, is the sample thing broken in dapper?
<bhuvan> i guess not
<bhuvan> in breezy it was due to missing entries in debian/install file
<bhuvan> to install sample/* we must make entries in that file i guess
<mdke> yes
<bhuvan> after i did this change, i build a breezy (5.10-7) package, installed and tested
<bhuvan> generally, how do we (docteam) provide updates if we dont have access to source of breezy package ?
<mdke> of course you do
<mdke> apt-get source ubuntu-docs
<bhuvan> i meant, how do we provide updates if we dont have write access ?
<mdke> you ask a developer to upload it for you
<bhuvan> oh ok
<jsgotangco> ubuntu brief?
<jsgotangco> hope its not a pair!
* mdke looks at jsgotangco 
<mdke> is that a joke?
<jsgotangco> well that ubuntu brief thing totally escaped me
* jsgotangco has no clue
<jsgotangco> its probably the ff homepage?
<mdke> yes
<mdke> i thought you were making a joke about underpants or something
<jsgotangco> well sure
<mdke> afk
<mdke> bhuvan, btw I think I'll remove that branch to avoid confusion. Sorry not to have done it earlier
<bhuvan> mdke, ok. imo, we can atleast have a README in the main dir instead of removing ?
<mdke> it has no purpose
<mdke> the breezy source can be found in tags
<mdke> i'll add the source of the update when it arrives
<bhuvan> mdke, ok
<mdke> mailing the list now
<bhuvan> mdke, ok
<bhuvan> mdke, i could see see thousands of diff between branches/breezy & breezy source (downloaded from 'apt-get source ubuntu-docs) :)
<mdke> yeah
<bhuvan> is it worth looking into them ?
<mdke> no
<mdke> the breezy source is the latest stuff
<bhuvan> mdke, ok
<bhuvan> mdke, atleast for this broken "sample" links, i have applied this patch on 5.10-6 and created 5.10-7. shall i post it to ubuntu-devel mailing list ?
<mdke> no
<mdke> you'll need to wait for the update, and make a patch for that
<mdke> but we will have to think about whether it is worthwhile doing an update to fix that bug
<manicka> mdke :)
<mdke> don't forget that breezy-updates are reserved for special cases!
<manicka> the doc
<mdke> mdz will only give permission in rare cases
<manicka> oops
<mdke> hi manicka 
<manicka> The UDSF team has almost finished their statement as per sabfl's request for the next cc meeting
<manicka> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UDSF
<mdke> bhuvan, i'll ask if the thing has been uploaded already, maybe we can squeeze it into the update
<manicka> I wanted to give the doc-team the opportunity to add comments about it on the talk page as per sabfl's request
<bhuvan> mdke, give it a try as it is a trivial change which would make solid diff to existing faq guides
<bhuvan> mdke, and let me know how it goes, thanks much
<mdke> ok
<mdke> manicka, ok. I read it the other day. The first thing I thought is that you need a question for the CC to answer if it is on the agenda. At the moment I don't see one.
<manicka> hmm, ok I'll add some more to the agenda
<jsgotangco> mdke: the upstream docs also refer to the css that you made?
<mdke> jsgotangco, yes
<jsgotangco> they render nicely?
<mdke> bhuvan, ok i will do the fix and pass it to the dev
<bhuvan> mdke, thanks
<mdke> jsgotangco, no reason why not. I can't test because yelp is broken
<jsgotangco> same here
<jsgotangco> mdke: i just thought of a random breakage that's all
<mdke> jsgotangco, which?
<jsgotangco> on upstream docs duhhh
<jsgotangco> :P
<mdke> what breakage?
<jsgotangco> i said random and its not even proven if there is such because yelp is broken currently :P
<mdke> i don't think it should break, it's only display related
<jsgotangco> like i said we don't know till it happens
<mdke> ok...
<manicka> ok, agenda item clarified
<mdke> bhuvan, got a bug number for the sample/ thing? nice catch on the da/cs typos btw
<bhuvan> mdke, ok
<mdke> manicka, "Official Wiki and Doc team members saw it as a threat" <-- nonsense
<manicka> It's not my words
<manicka> feel free to add comment on the talk page
<mdke> ok i'll take a look later
<mdke> bhuvan, there isn't a bug open about the sample/ thing?
<bhuvan> mdke, ok
<mdke> bhuvan, i'm asking!
<bhuvan> i'm not aware of the bug no. i remember you saying there was an open bug. it was MY QUESTION NO 1 :)
<mdke> ok, i can't find the bug :/
<bhuvan> shall i open one if it is mandatory to provide the update ?
<mdke> no, no
<mdke> no problem
<mdke> bhuvan, can you check this diff for me: http://mdke.org/debs/ubuntu-docs.diff
<mdke> bhuvan, actually, i'll mention that you provided the fix in the changelog. Other than that, if the diff looks ok, i'll push it through
<bhuvan> mdke, diff is perfect
<mdke> bhuvan, good, thanks
<jsgotangco> brb
<mdke> bhuvan, oh crap, that's not gonna work, the sample/ directory is only in C
<bhuvan> mdke, yes :)
<mdke> that diff won't work thenm
<bhuvan> so, we should do +generic/faqguide/C/sample/* usr/share/ubuntu-docs/generic/faqguide/en_AU/sample ?
<mdke> yeah
<bhuvan> i noticed, but forgot while applying/verifying the patches :)
<mdke> ok http://mdke.org/debs/ubuntu-docs.diff should be right
<mdke> if not, I don't care >_<
* bhuvan feels it is right
<mdke> bhuvan, thanks for that fix
<manicka> is robotgeek around
<manicka> ?
<robotgeek> yeah manicka 
<manicka> I just wanted you to know that we've added a link to Wireless Network Central to http://doc.gwos.org/index.php/HardwareBreezy
<robotgeek> manicka: thanks, i guess that's where most of the wireless info on the wiki will be
<manicka> it's a great page :)
<robotgeek> it's just stuff on the wiki, better organised
<manicka> nice :)
<mdke> manicka, "The UDSF doesn't have to go through such a process" (from your comment). Actually this is not accurate. In terms of licensing, you also need to seek the author's permission before copying a document to the gwos area. There is no difference between the gwos area and the wiki in terms of what copyright infringements are permitted
* robotgeek is trying to get the options for gmail correct, so that he can start sending emails properly
<mdke> manicka, further, it's not quite right that I told you that to add documents to the wiki, you need to discuss it first on irc or the mailing list. That is not the case at all
<manicka> hmmm, that was my impression from our conersation
<mdke> you can add anything to the wiki, it's totally open
<mdke> we ask that guidelines are followed for documentation which appears in the index
<mdke> we also ask that major structural or organisation changes are discussed with the team
<manicka> My understanding is that our licensing allows us to move data from the forums to gwos freely without seeking permission
<mdke> manicka, if that understanding is right, then it can be moved freely to the wiki as well. But I don't think it is
<mdke> it depends on the licensing of the forums
<manicka> that would be worth discussing further with kb
<mdke> don't forget that when material appears on the gwos area, the material is released in the public domain, so you need authors' permission to do that
<mdke> unless they release their material in the public domain already, when they post on the forum
<manicka> hmmm, the licensing issues are a grey area for me, kb would know more
<mdke> in any case, there is no difference between gwos and the wiki in that respect
<manicka> my understanding is that post to the forum are public domain
<manicka> but I could be wrong
<mdke> ok. if that is correct, then material can be moved directly into the wiki, or anywhere else, from the forum
<mdke> there is nothing special about gwos in that respect
<manicka> you would think so, but that's not what I was told i had to do originally
<mdke> it depends on whether posts to the forum are public domain or not
<manicka> I can't give a definitive answer, my belief is they are
<mdke> ok, my point is that regardless of what the answer is, that is no reason to distinguish betwen gwos and the ubuntu wiki
<manicka> I understand what your saying
<mdke> ok
<manicka> it would have been nice to clarify all this many months ago
<manicka> then again discussions were a bit tense I guess
<mdke> throughout all these various discussions, all I see are continuous misunderstandings of the situation
<mdke> bah
<manicka> that may be so, I haven't been privi to the main dialogue
<mdke> ok i'll write a comment
<mdke> manicka, are the forums working? I can't connect
<robotgeek> mdke: nope, down. they are moving to a different server
<mdke> ok
<mdke> manicka, alright, I've written something
<manicka> mdke, thanks for your comments
<mdke> np
<manicka> I was interested to read the BetterWikiDocs
<mdke> yeah, that's a tough spec
<manicka> perhaps a merger may be possible when that process gets underway
<manicka> just a thought
<mdke> you think that that will make all the difference?
<manicka> I'm if nothing else, an optimist
<mdke> me too
<mdke> but I can't help but feel that the continuous unnecessary misunderstandings are simply evidence of a mmistrust of anything "official" on the part of some forum members
<mdke> i don't understand where it comes from
<manicka> hmmm, I can't speak for others but I don't feel that way
<mdke> that's good, there is no reason too, the forums are obviously a big part of the ubuntu community
<jsgotangco> bummer all translations seem to have its own set of images on svn
<jsgotangco> hey jjesse 
<jsgotangco> jjesse: i've started small changes to kquickguide
<jsgotangco> just committed it
<jjesse> awesome, is there al ot to do?
<jsgotangco> some menu re-arrangements
<jsgotangco> and some additions like the bluetooth stuff
<jsgotangco> i'll focus on re-arranging the menus based on flight 3 first before tackling the screenshots
<jjesse> ok sounds like a plan
<jsgotangco> it'll be a better doc before the week ends :)
<jjesse> that's good to hear
<jjesse> then release notes and the quick guide should be 99% done
<jsgotangco> jjesse: i'm just dumping text at the moment, i won't be testing it yet
<jsgotangco> so it probably won't build
<jjesse> the quick guide and the release notes are the only two we are releasing right now for kubuntu correct?
<jsgotangco> well they're the most stable we have for now
<jsgotangco> unless we get some hardcore writer out there that can do a whole guide in less than 4 months
<jsgotangco> we can add more quick howtos on the quickguide i guess
<jsgotangco> since the initial part of the doc was basically simple howtos
<jjesse> and that guide would be the desktopguide?
<mdke> s/4 months/2 months
<jsgotangco> ill just be adding the bluetooth sub-sections now and i'll be done for the evening
<jsgotangco> its almost 1am
<jsgotangco> heh
<jjesse> grin that would be way past my bed time
<jjesse> i'll svn up whatever you commit tonight and that way i can do some work this evening 
<mdke> guys don't forget that committing stuff which doesn't validate will mean that the preview server won't get updated, until you fix it
<jsgotangco> nahh its ok
<jsgotangco> its just temporary
<jsgotangco> i may have dsl but its taking a while to actually download the updates on my side
<mdke> cool
<mdke> as long as you remember :)
<mdke> i figured it was temporary
<mdke> i wonder where rob1 has got to these days
<jsgotangco> he just went *bamf* all of a sudden but i still see him on the freenode chan
<mdke> strange
<mdke> you think he's gonna come back?
<jsgotangco> well i sure hope so, i guess he's just busy with work or currently in a strange schedule
<mdke> i hope so too
<jsgotangco> well i gotta sleep see you later
<mdke> night
<LaserJock> mdke: I got an email from elmo!
<mdke> yeah
<LaserJock> umm, now I'm not exactly sure what to do with it?
<mdke> decrypt it and you get your user/password
<LaserJock> ok, then?
<mdke> then use it to commit to svn
<LaserJock> so just commit and it will ask me for my password?
<mdke> yep
<LaserJock> oh, ok. I've just never commited to a non-local repo before
<mdke> LaserJock, worky?
<LaserJock> just a sec
<LaserJock> mdke: is it ok if I add myself to /commmon/authors/ ?
<mdke> sure
<LaserJock> cool
<LaserJock> it worked
<Burgwork> LaserJock, was that the sight of you having commit access?
<LaserJock> Burgwork: yes!
<Burgwork> cool
<mdke> seb128, btw did you seegood
<mdke> argh
<mdke> LaserJock, good
<LaserJock> today I will commit what i've got of the Packaging Guide (not much but I want theCore to atleast be able to see what I've been up to) 
<mdke> rocking
<LaserJock> mdke: I have a question about the revhistory. Should I be adding entries to it?
<mdke> bleh
<mdke> dunno, i removed the revhistory from the desktop guide last weekend
<LaserJock> is it ok to just get rid of it?
<mdke> well, i did, so blame me
<LaserJock> I don't quite understand its purpose
<mdke> --> home
<mgalvin> hey guys
<mgalvin> VMwarePlayerAndQemu is all set if anyone has time to take a peek
<LaserJock> mgalvin: are you sure you need to use g++-3.4? I think I just installed the linux-headers and off it went.
<LaserJock> I do have g++3.4 installed but I didn't do CC=
<jjesse> i had to install gtt 3.4
<LaserJock> hmm, I wonder if you need the export CC= though
<mgalvin> LaserJock: i have always had to set cc=gcc-3.4
<LaserJock> hmm, I wonder what I did wrong then :-)
<mgalvin> since the page is meant to work for breezy to, i think it is safe to keep it there
<mgalvin> makes it work for breezy... no harm on dapper :)
<LaserJock> well, I don't think it hurts
<LaserJock> I just wondered
<mgalvin> i'll try a clean install to verify if it works without it when i get a chance, it may not be needed on dapper, not sure
<LaserJock> the wiki page looks awesome though
<mgalvin> thanks :)
<LaserJock> I'm getting now to where I don't think I will ever need to dual boot anything
<LaserJock> I use dchroot and vmware now
<mgalvin> cool... i haven't dual booted in ages :)
<LaserJock> In the past I have had several linux distros on at the same time but now I will just fire up vmware-player
<mdke> mgalvin, add to DocumentationTeam/News2 please, nice work :D
<mgalvin> mdke: already done, thanks :)
<mdke> ah cool
<mgalvin> also added LiveCDPersistance the other day as well
<mgalvin> oh yea, and DapperFlight3
* mdke subscribes
<LaserJock> when will News2 go out?
<mgalvin> LaserJock: early Feb. i would think
<LaserJock> doh, I was thinking we were in Feb. already
<mgalvin> ahh, please no, time goes to fast already ;)
* LaserJock looks around for a calendar program
* mgalvin looks for time slowing machine
<mdke> LaserJock, i think we will just release news every now and again when they are ready
<mdke> when we have something to put in them :)
<LaserJock> I was just thinking that maybe I could get some Packaging Guide in there if I have time. ;-)
<Burgwork> mgalvin, when you find one, I want to rent it part time
<mgalvin> :)
<jjesse> hmm installed a dapper build via vmplaery per the wiki page and get a message "/dev/mapper/Ubuntu-root does not exist
<jjesse> wierd it appears to be working now
<mgalvin> jjesse: which dapper build?
<jjesse> mgalvin: flight3
<jjesse> i rebooted the vmplayer and it worked
<mgalvin> ok, at least it worked
<mdke> LaserJock, absolutely. great plan
<mdke> heh
* mdke looks at RecentChanges and suggests the use of "Preview" to mgalvin 
<Kyral> Should I do something on Xen?
<mgalvin> mdke: i commit the content in sections in case i need to roll something back... its just a kind of long doc... sorry for the extra noise
<mgalvin> i don't normally get to sit down and do it all at once :(
<mdke> no problemo
<mdke> it's great that you comment on each one
<mgalvin> does anyone have VMware Player on a windows machine to see if coping over the vmdk image created will also work on windows
* mgalvin wants to stick a fork in Virtual PC ;)
<mgalvin> it should, just can't verify atm
<LaserJock> mgalvin: oh, I hadn't even thought of that. I will have to try that out when I get home tonight :-)
<mgalvin> LaserJock: cool, thanks
<LaserJock> I have only Windows machines at home, it would be nice to be able to use vmware-player at home
<mgalvin> LaserJock: if you find that it works please feel free to add that info to the wiki
<mgalvin> maybe under addition info or something
<LaserJock> mgalvin: what whould I have to transfer?
<mgalvin> LaserJock: you shoul only really need the .vmdk image and the .vmx config file
<LaserJock> i wouldn't need the qemu .img ?
<mgalvin> correct, no .img (that can be deleted since it is no longer needed), it is essentially a temp file
<mgalvin> vmplayer will just generate everything else it needs
<LaserJock> mgalvin: ok, cool. I'll try it out tonight and put something on the wiki if it works :-)
<mgalvin> LaserJock: great thanks :)
<ompaul> looking for a doc that lists the likes of >>no apic<< and the dma stuff and all that 
<ompaul> any pointers?
<ompaul> I need to create a factoid for #ubuntu 
<ompaul> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/?action=fullsearch&context=180&value=boot&titlesearch=Titles << that has too much info :)
<Burgwork> ompaul, you mean kernel options?
<ompaul> Burgwork, I do, indeed, btw I had something funny to say about your mail this morning but I bit my tounge :-) big fast cars 
<ompaul> I also stopped myself from typing
<ompaul> Burgwork, if you don't know one I should research one do a wiki page on that tomorrow, maybe or better put it on the docs list and let someone with clues in the astetics region get to work on it
<Burgwork> ompaul, start a wiki page, be bold!
<ompaul> Burgwork, yeah and 20 seconds later you or mdke = for review and stuff :)
<Burgwork> yep
#ubuntu-doc 2006-01-29
<ompaul> Burgwork, catagories and so one
<ompaul> s/one/on
<Burgwork> this is really about me being lazy. I get other people to do my work and then I clean it up and take credit ;)
<ompaul> yeah we know this :-)
<ompaul> but you put a lot of work into this lazy
* ompaul grins
<Burgwork> I try
<ompaul> it is noted
<ompaul> I am now wondering what I will end up reading to get this boot options stuff and putting it in some order that makes sense - life can be fun
<Burgwork> if you can teach someone something, you have truly mastered it
<ompaul> Burgwork, why do you think I spend lots of time in #ubuntu :) 
<ompaul> I learn others learn and its a big happy ubuntu time
<ompaul> well mostly
* ompaul grumbles about something of no consequense 
<LaserJock> hmm, I wonder if we could ship a "From the Wiki" doc that has HTMLized or XMLized wiki pages
<Burgwork> LaserJock, see the thread on the maling list
<LaserJock> Burgwork: right, that's what I'm looking at
<Burgwork> I don't see it working with our  current wiki
<LaserJock> how hard would it be to HTMLize a wiki page?
<Burgwork> what do you do with it once it is turned into HTML?
<LaserJock> ship it
<LaserJock> put it on help.ubuntu.com
<Burgwork> that means no translation
<Burgwork> why not have two wikis and keep it moin for help.ubuntu.com as well?
<LaserJock> well, it seems like an oxymoron to me to have a static wiki :-)
<Burgwork> no it is not
<Burgwork> it is harnessing the power of hte wiki in a non-traditional way
<LaserJock> who would get to edit it? just doc-team members?
<Burgwork> exactly
<LaserJock> and then we would point to it in our shipped documentation?
<Burgwork> with an area to leave comments that doesn't require an account
<Burgwork> the interactions of wiki <--> shipped still need to be worked out
<LaserJock> if we do have a (more) static wiki then we should be able to have a "From the Wiki" page with links and brief summaries of what is on our wiki
<Burgwork> yep, exactly
<Burgwork> and we can say "this is good" in a simple way
<LaserJock> how would we track changes in the w.u.c pages
<Burgwork> what do you mean?'
<LaserJock> well, once we import a page into "our" wiki we would have to keep track of the changes in the w.u.c pages and update ours as needed
<Burgwork> no, the page would be moved, not copied
<LaserJock> oh, I don't think that is a very good idea, but I'll have to think about that
<Burgwork> I imagine us moving our in progress docs to doc.ubuntu.com
<Burgwork> a redirect would be left and that page locked
<LaserJock> but then authors (and others) can't work on their wiki pages
<Burgwork> yes they can, because they can be granted write access to them
<LaserJock> but then it just turns into a slightly better wiki because we would have quite a few people asking for write access
<Burgwork> no
<LaserJock> I would think it would turn people off of wanting to improve the doc because they can't edit it in the same way as the w.u.c pages
<Burgwork> LaserJock, the pages we would move are pages that are unlikely to see any useful editing, such as RestrictedFormats
<LaserJock> I suppose
<Burgwork> and there would be an anon comment place
<LaserJock> how many pages do you think we are talking about here?
<Burgwork> a dozen for starters
<LaserJock> that wouldn't be too bad
<Burgwork> each page would be need to carefully considered
<Burgwork> it would also provide a goal
<Burgwork> to get your page moved to help
<LaserJock> but then what is the advantage over just turning those into XML and putting them in the svn repo?
<Burgwork> sorry, got to run
<LaserJock> I agree the motivation factor whould be cool
<Burgwork> the advantage is that they are still in the wiki
<LaserJock> alright, I see your poing more. I'll let you go now ;-)
<LaserJock> s/poing/point/
<Skywind> RAYS LX 1.5 Alpha2 
<Skywind> sorry
<mgalvin> i started reading USDF, i think i missed something... what is GWOS?
<LaserJock> it's a ubuntuforums splitoff wiki, I think
<Kyral> More like a stashhouse for all the HOWTOs in one place ;P
<mgalvin> is there a link to a site?
<mgalvin> or is this all just talk atm?
<LaserJock> no it's very real
<mgalvin> hmm... i have been so busy... it seems i have missed a lot :-/
<mgalvin> link?
<robotgeek> docs.gwos.org
<LaserJock> yeah, I just found it
<mgalvin> hmm.. server not found
<mgalvin> what does the GWOS stand for?
<robotgeek> doc.gwos.org, sorry
<robotgeek> The Great Wyrms of Sorrow and Regret
<robotgeek> that's what it's causing us all
* mgalvin pokes around a bit
<manicka> the UDSF is not a splitoff from the Forums, it is part of the forums
<manicka> It is the forums knowledgebase and centralised repo of data
<LaserJock> I meant sort of a splitoff from wiki.ubuntu.com
<manicka> although it is in the wiki format its purpose is not to be a Documentation Project like the Wiki
<manicka> It's a place to 'store/organise ' forum data, so that it is more accessible to forum users
<robotgeek> manicka: i've spoken to you before, and you know my views, so i will stay away from this discussion
<manicka> ok
<manicka> :)
<mgalvin> first if forum users find the wiki unfriendly (understandable for noobs) how does *another* **wiki** solve the problem??
<manicka> That would be a point if both wikis were Doc projects. The Storage Facility is not a Documentation project
<mgalvin> its a knowledge base correct?
<mgalvin> of sorts
<manicka> the data entered at doc.gwos.org has been mainly completed by a handful of maintainers. Users do not generally contribute
<manicka> yes a knowledgebase
<LaserJock> so the forums can't handle the knowledgebase type structure?
<mgalvin> why would that info not fit into the ubuntu wiki or h.u.c or something similar
<mgalvin> ubuntu is all about openness, why is it necessary to have a separate knowledgebase on a separate (no obvious) site?
<manicka> it's not as easy to store and create the knowledgebase because of license restrictions
<mgalvin> s/no/non/
<manicka> options were investigated to make it part of the forums site itself, but the forum software couldn't handle the task
<mgalvin> so ultimately this is fundamentally about lic issues, correct?
<manicka> it's all explained on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UDSF
<mgalvin> mostly
<mgalvin> right i started reading that, just want to make sure i am clear...
* mgalvin still has more catching up to do
<manicka> some of those sections are still being redrafted as we speak
<manicka> the History and About sections are finalised
<mgalvin> ok, at any rate, i will read what more I can find on the issue and follow in the appropriate places
<mgalvin> manicka: thanks for filling me in a bit
<manicka> np :)
<LaserJock> so UDSF is Creative-Commons Public Domain which is why there could be some issues I suppose
<manicka> feel free to add comment to the talk page
<mgalvin> i will do
<manicka> I'm not 100% sure on the reason for that licence. It was implemented after extensive discussions between mdke and king bahamut
<mgalvin> how long has http://doc.gwos.org been around?
<manicka> hmmm, online since about Oct 2005 from memory
<manicka> bbl
<mgalvin> most of the stuff (that i have seen so far) on doc.gwos.org is just links to other articles, not much real original content... and many of those links lead to non noob friendly material
<mgalvin> additionally how is a noob supposed to find doc.gwos.org... i didn't find it right off the bat, i had to ask
<_jason> Hello, who can I discuss an issue I have with help.ubuntu.com documentation with?
<robotgeek> hey _jason , right here i guess
<_jason> Well, someone just came into #ubuntu asking how to remove realplayer after installing it using help.ubuntu.com instructions (ch. 3, question 3).  The thing is that those instrucitons say to just run the .bin executable from real.com and don't provide either directions on removing it or a warning that it will be difficult to remove.  I haven't installed it myself, so I don't know if it provides an easy to use shortcut to remove it in
<LaserJock> _jason: which doc was it?
<robotgeek> _jason: usually, you can just remove the symlink, and the directory to which it was installed
<robotgeek> http://help.ubuntu.com/starterguide/C/ch03.html
<_jason> http://help.ubuntu.com/starterguide/C/ch03.html#id2526342
<robotgeek> the plugins it installed can be removed by "sudo rm /usr/lib/mozilla/plugins/nphelix.*
<_jason> robotgeek: true, I'm looking at this from the standpoint of someone brand new to ubuntu and probably to linux too if he is reading the starterguide
<_jason> I just feel like that would improve the documentation, just thought I'd share my thoughts
<robotgeek> _jason: yeah, true that
<jsgotangco> i like the idea of the USDF its just about quick and simple howtos
<jjesse> i don't know, i like it and also at times don't like, i guess i don't understand why just not use the wiki
<jsgotangco> true
<jsgotangco> ill add my comments on that
<jjesse> all i know is that mdke has spent a lot of time on it
<LaserJock> mgalvin: ping?
<mgalvin> LaserJock: pong?
<LaserJock> I'm running vmware-player from my Windows XP laptop
<jsgotangco> that's pretty good
<mgalvin> sweet :)
* mgalvin sticks his fork in virtual pc
<jjesse> i got a buddy to try linux thru vmplayer
<jjesse> he "likes what he sees"
<mgalvin> great
<LaserJock> all I had to do was change the path to the iso 
<LaserJock> oh, and change /dev/fd0 to A:
<mgalvin> yup
<robotgeek> LaserJock: howz the speed? faster than a live cd?
<LaserJock> well, I'm using a livecd .iso at the moment so no ;-)
<jjesse> runs fine on my buddy's laptop, so much better then through qemu
<LaserJock> hmm, seems to be slower in Windows than it was on linux, I think the comps should be fairly equivalent
<LaserJock> oh, I had some weird Flash thing playing in Firefox. much faster now
<mgalvin> LaserJock: feel free to add that info to the wiki if you have time, or i can do always do it in the a.m.
<LaserJock> mgalvin: what should I add? Just that it works in windows if you change the paths?
<mgalvin> maybe something under managing the vms such as == Using Your Virtual Machines on Windows == or something
<mgalvin> or maybe under additional info
<mgalvin> not totally sure atm
<mgalvin> i am half asleep
<LaserJock> k, you can fix in the morning ;-)
<mgalvin> ok :)
<mgalvin> bed time for me... good night all
<LaserJock> ok, I just added a little bit to mgalvin's wiki page on using VMware-Player in Windows
<robotgeek> hey Burgundavia 
<Burgundavia> salut robotgeek 
<robotgeek> getting to work on integrating the ndiswrapper arrticles, 4 in all. 
<robotgeek> i think i'm going to work with only 2 at the moment, it's too much information
<robotgeek> does the ubuntu moin install differ in any significant way from the default moin install?
<rob> hello
<robotgeek> hey rob 
<rob> wiki docs in the distro, hmm
<robotgeek> rob: no, i wanted a install to test out some "radical" wiki editing
<rob> you can roll back the wiki, but if its really radical, check with Burgundavia or mdke
<rob> cause the rollback could still be painful
<robotgeek> rob: i know, i prefer to do it locally, and then paste it. think it's a lot cleaner that ways
<rob> I would just do it in a text editor, then edit the page and hit preview
<rob> or just make a new page on the wiki, and not save it
<rob> in fact, I'm sure there are several sites out there that will give you your own wiki just for signing up
<robotgeek> hmm, yes. i use vim on the wiki stuff anyways
<mdke> rob!
<rob> hi mdke 
<mdke> hello
<mdke> nice to see you
<rob> yes, been a while
<mdke> how are you?
<rob> pretty good, yourself?
<mdke> fine
<robotgeek> hey mdke 
<mdke> we've missed your work on the desktopguide rob :0
<mdke> hi robotgeek 
<rob> yeah I'm not had a lot of spare time lately
<mdke> rob, will you be working on docs again/
<mdke> -> ?
<rob> not sure
<mdke> ok
<mdke> as long as you let us know :)
<rob> the only time I've had to myself and a pc is with a laptop with no net connection
<rob> but the upshot is I've learnt a lot of other computer related stuff
<rob> such as python
<mdke> cool
<mdke> rob, it's totally understandable not to have time :) Just let us know so we can plan stuff
<rob> most of my pc usage has been while minding my new (well 5 months old) daughter
<mdke> heh
<rob> so go ahead without me, I'll still poke in from time to time
<mdke> ok
* bhuvan loose one hand for server guide
<rob> maybe in a few weeks I'll have more time, but I'm undecided if I'll keep doing docs or look at motu or something else
<rob> the other killer of my time has been work, I used to work shift (and solaris looks after itself pretty well), now I'm a "windows system admin" guy, its flat out
<rob> I'm getting my glasses fixed, I haven't spent so long looking at pc screens in ages
<mdke> that's cool
<mdke> -> work
<mdke> bhuvan, btw can you have a look at the gnump3d thread, I couldn't find the guide in the serverguide
<bhuvan> mdke, yep. does he mean the desktop guide ?
<mdke> bhuvan, no, that's a server program: it's not in the desktopguide. it was in the faqguide for 5.10
<robotgeek> yay, finally got moin isntalled and working (from ubuntu repos)
<mdke> robotgeek, nice work. I have never quite succeeded in that. Did you do fastcgi?
<mdke> feel free to write a guide... ;)
<robotgeek> mdke: less /usr/share/doc/moin/Readme.Debian :)
<robotgeek> i'm deciding what colors to use for the wireless page, any tips
<bhuvan> mdke, any comments on s/Server Starter Guide/Server Guide/ ?
<mdke> bhuvan, i'll mail them
<mdke> -> work for real
<bhuvan> mdke, thanks
<robotgeek> the ubuntu wiki is faster than the wiki on my local machine
<bhuvan> robotgeek, did any customisation ? for me it was too cool when i tried long back in debian unstable
* Burgundavia grumbles about the Canadian election results
<robotgeek> bhuvan: no customization yet, i just wanted to get it to work. 
<bhuvan> robotgeek, what is your system conf ?
<robotgeek> heh, it's a 500 mhz machine. with 512 mb ram
<robotgeek> i bet it will be faster on my laptop, lol
* robotgeek makes a vim keyboard macro to insert colors into pages
<bhuvan> robotgeek, what are the additional apache modules you use
<robotgeek> bhuvan: there are a lot, basically the default ubuntu apache2 instal
<bhuvan> robotgeek, the performance may improve if you disable unused apache modules. imho, moin performance is too good compared to mediawiki
<robotgeek> ah, yeah. i have stuff like vhost and crap, which i am not using
<robotgeek> bhuvan: no apparently the only modules i have enabled are "cgid userdir"
<robotgeek> okay, i think i will script this. even vim macros will take long
<robotgeek> mdke: i'm thinking of having a color for "Works OOTB", "Works with...", "No/Need More Info" 
<mdke> robotgeek_zzz, what moin install did you do? if you use fastcgi, it should help. normal cgi is very slow
<mdke> but fastcgi is hard to get working :)
<robotgeek> heh, back mdke 
<robotgeek> mdke: instead of colors, can i do subpages?
<mdke> you can do anything
<robotgeek> HardwareSupportComponentsWirelessNetworkCards/ (WorksOutofthebox)|(WorksWithNdiswrapper)|
<robotgeek> and get rid of the big list there. 
<robotgeek> okay, will work on a test page first
<Belutz> jsgotangco, are you coming on feb 1st?
<jsgotangco> Belutz, nope busy at work...will be in a trip
<Belutz> jsgotangco, ah i see
<jsgotangco> i guess everything is well on the upcoming jakarta event?
<Belutz> yup, everyone is preparing
<Belutz> someone still trying to convince the minister of telecomunication and informatics to come to the event
<Belutz> and the minister of R&D
<jsgotangco> heh
<Belutz> :p
* jsgotangco reading about DITA lately..
<LaserJock> mgalvin: did you see my addition to the vmware-qemu wiki?
<mgalvin> LaserJock: yup, great, thanks :)
<LaserJock> mgalvin: np
<jjesse> communit council meeting in #ubuntu-meeting
<jjesse> just starting
<LaserJock> mdke: so what about the Packaging Guide, which is under GPL? Can I use wiki material if it is PD?
<mdke> yes
<mdke> you can do whatever
<LaserJock> if it was MIT/BSD could I?
<Kyral> Frankly I don't give a **** as long as you say something along the lines of "This document contains material originally written by <me>" or somesuch
<mdke> Kyral, omg, go read some licenses
<Kyral> huh?
<LaserJock> Kyral: I don't even care about that but we have to worry about licensing
<Kyral> ah
<Kyral> this is why I stay outta this stuff...makes my life hard lol
<mdke> Kyral, the sort of non-free licenses that we are trying to exclude are those which require accreditation like that
<Kyral> ah
<Kyral> I just don't want someone COMPLETELY passing my work as thier own ;P
<LaserJock> well, I'm kinda stuck to the GPL as far as I know because all the Debian developer docs are GPL
<Kyral> yah
<Kyral> GPL++
<LaserJock> but GPL isn't compatible with GFDL as far as I know :(
<Kyral> ...GNU made a license that isn't compatable with one of thier own licenses?
<mdke> GFDL is so unfree
* Kyral busts out laughing
<LaserJock> I don't quite understand it but according to GNU they aren't compatible
<mdke> bustacap, welcome aboard :)
<Kyral> hes not in yet lol
<robotgeek> lol
<mdke> Kyral, this is #ubuntu-doc
<Kyral> ah lol
* mdke sighs
<bustacap> thanks..
<robotgeek> i think i am going to for membership soon :)
<Kyral> like i said I don't care for procedure most of the time ;P
<mdke> procedure?
<Kyral> I dunno
<Kyral> mind isn't right because I'm hungry
<robotgeek> mdke: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Projects does someone need to start working on the Kubuntu part, or is it done? doe dapper?
<robotgeek> for dapper, err. 
<mdke> robotgeek, which project? the kubuntu docs are worked on by jjesse, you can talk to him
<robotgeek> say, the Kubuntu starter guide?
<mdke> that is pretty much on hold I think
<robotgeek> ah, which needs most hep then?
<Kyral> Any idea when a "prototype" of Ubuntu Express will be out?
<mdke> Kyral, #-devel
<robotgeek> Kubuntu Release Notes?
<Kyral> yah yah
<Kyral> I know
<mdke> robotgeek, not sure, mail the list or ask jjesse
<robotgeek> okay. will do, thanks mdke 
#ubuntu-doc 2007-01-22
* mdke pokes mpt 
<mpt> mdke, the contents pane in Yelp
<mdke> mpt: can you be a bit more specific? you mean the start page?
<mpt> No, I mean the pane that normally takes up the left third of Yelp's window
<mdke> and do you mean "all the time", or "for the documents that don't have subsections"
<mpt> for the documents that don't have subsections
<mpt> which, in the topic-based world, is many of them
<mdke> well, we have two or three
<mdke> I don't know what the answer is. Did you file a bug about it already? we could ask them to hide it for documents which have no sections
<mpt> ok, I will
<mdke> mpt: you think it should simply take up the whole window with the text?
<mpt> Definitely
<mdke> ok
<LaserJock> oh, nifty a commit bot
* mdke nods
<mdke> LaserJock: bhuvan spotted it, it's taken about 6 months to get it to join :)
<LaserJock> interesting, there is a CIA-1 in another channel I frequent ;-)
<mdke> yeah, we added the hook to the svn repo ages ago but the guy who adds the bot went MIA and only just got to it now
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal * r3711 kubuntu/C/office/office.xml: missed one type :)
<nixternal> yeah, I can spell
<crimsun> it's impressive that "Redhat" is still used instead of "Red Hat"
* crimsun continues through kubuntu/C/
<crimsun> (meaning that someone needs to fix that typo)
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal * r3712 kubuntu/C/about-kubuntu/about-kubuntu.xml: fixed Redhat typo just for crimsun
<crimsun> excellent. "Updated to revision 3712"
<tonyyarusso> What's CIA-4 ?
<crimsun> nixternal: next typo, same file, references "10,000" when it should be over "16,000"
<crimsun> (I'll send a diff ;)
<tonyyarusso> Isn't it more like 20,000 now?
<crimsun> closer to 17,000
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal * r3713 kubuntu/C/about-kubuntu/about-kubuntu.xml: yet another typo found by the master of everything Ubuntu, the great crimsun himself
<nixternal> ;p
<tonyyarusso> crimsun: Correct me if this is an inaccurate way of checking, but 'apt-cache search "" | grep "" -c' gives 21080.
<crimsun> tonyyarusso: it's inflated.
<tonyyarusso> crimsun: From what?  (I don't really know what that does - LjL gave me the command.
<crimsun> apt-cache stats's Normal shows all Package names, including virtuals
<tonyyarusso> oh, so things like ubuntu-desktop are in that number.
<crimsun> yes
<tonyyarusso> Any switch to avoid that?
<crimsun> though ubuntu-desktop is a meta and not a virtual
<tonyyarusso> What's the difference?
<crimsun> the former's a package that depends on other packages for convenience; the latter's a dependency reference
<tonyyarusso> a "dependency reference"?
<crimsun> for instance, both exim4 and postfix provide the mail-transport-agent
<niru> hello all
<niru> I want to help in documentation who is going to give me work
<nixternal> what kind of work are you looking for?
<niru> I am intrested in both documentation work as well as translation
<nixternal> GNOME, KDE, or Xfce side? or heck even the Edubuntu side?
<niru> nixternal:just now I have subscribed to ubuntu-doc mailing list
<niru> nixternal:GNOME and KDE
<niru> nixternal:And among that I will prefer GNOME
<nixternal> right now we are in the middle of switching over the typical docs you have seen for the past 2 years into a topic based help system instead of a handbook type layout
<nixternal> for the GNOME side, you would want to speak with mdke which I am sure is currently sleeping as he is in the UK
<nixternal> are you familiar with DocBook XML? SVN?
<niru> nixternal:I heard about DocBook and SVN we are using
<niru> nixternal:but indepth no
<niru> nixternal:I shall learn those
<nixternal> as for the translation side, I myself am not 100% familiar with it, but you would want to go https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+translations and try to work with your language
<niru> hello bhuvan
<bhuvan> hello niru
<niru> nixternal:what about docs
<niru> nixternal:are you going to give me tasks
<nixternal> we don't hand out tasks, you find something you are comfortable with, and create patches against the current documentation, and then one of the team members will upload if approved
<niru> nixternal:ok
<bhuvan> niru: if you are interested to contribute, please see if you can contribute patches for server guide: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerGuide
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: bhuvan * r3714 generic/serverguide/C/network-auth.xml: Patch by Lionel Porcheron for openldap server.
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: bhuvan * r3715 ubuntu/Makefile:
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: * Include a new target for status to display latest status report in
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation:  doc.ubuntu.com. This will help the new contributors to know the
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation:  current status of each section.
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: * Remove unused variables.
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: * Add status target in "all" section so it'll be displayed in
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation:  doc.ubuntu.com website.
<tonyyarusso> mmm, botspam!  hehe
<bhuvan> :)
<LaserJock> well, at least it isn't so quiet in here :-)
<LaserJock> shows somebody is working ;-)
<somerville32> Weeee :)
* mdke mornings
* mdke *monday* mornings
<mdke> ugh
<LaserJock> hi mdke
* LaserJock almost said "hi mornings"
<LaserJock> it's too late here
<Burgundavia> it is morning there, as sure as it is morning here, LaserJock
<mdke> bhuvan: good job!
<bhuvan> mdke: openldap thing or status?
<Burgundavia> openldap?
<mdke> bhuvan: the latter.
<mdke> btw, did you guys know that bdmurray (of docteam fame) has sneakily gone and got a job at Canonical?
* mdke congratulates bdmurray 
<Burgundavia> cool
<Burgundavia> what is he doing?
<mdke> QA
<Burgundavia> nice
<Burgundavia> where is he based?
* mdke not sures
<mdke> germany?
<mdke> ogra said he met him at the airport
<Burgundavia> we need more QA people, so that rocks
<Burgundavia> ogra is at canonical distro sprint
<Burgundavia> so bdmurray could be from anywhere
<mdke> I thought it was at the starting airport rather than finishing airport, but still
<Burgundavia> ah, ok
<mdke> hmm, perhaps not :)
<mdke> google suggests Oregon
<Burgundavia> what are you basing that off of?
<mdke> http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/au/2492
<Burgundavia> hmm, that makes two ODSL employees we have stolen
<Burgundavia> as Kees Cook came from their as well
<Burgundavia> s/their/there
<mdke> nice
<mdke> gotta go to work :/
<mdke> cya
<mpt> mdke, http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=399318
<Ubugtu> Gnome bug 399318 in docbook "Articles with no <section>s should not have contents pane or previous/next links" [Normal,Unconfirmed] 
<bdmurray> Yes, I am from Oregon.
<bdmurray> and thanks mdke
<mpt> darn, no time for help writing today
<willvdl> nixternal, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kubuntu/Release says 6.10 yet to be released
<nixternal> willvdl: thanks, I deleted that page. I started working from that page before we decided to switch to /release/Kubuntu
<willvdl> sweet
<willvdl> nixternal, release/Kubuntu on wiki or www?
<nixternal> wiki
<willvdl> you planning a https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Releases/Kubuntu?
<jenda> mdke: Looks like I have a replacement, so I soon won't need doc.ubuntu.com/~marketing
<jenda> mdke: I'd like it to stay static for as long as posible, though, because we have plenty of links going that way.
<mdke> jenda: sure
<mdke> mpt: confirmed
<mpt> ta
<jenda> mdke: thx
<popey> mdke: do you know of any list of big things to come in feisty?
<popey> s/things/changes
<popey> so far I have the gnome control centre, and switchable desktop bling
<popey> anything else?
<mdke> popey: not really, scott's blog has a few relevant posts; otherwise, the specs?
<popey> ahh
<popey> true
<popey> the gstreamer auto-codec download thing wont make it to feisty will it?
<mdke> I'm not sure
<popey> mdke: any news on s.u.c?
<popey> and/or is there anything we can do?
<mdke> no :(
<LaserJock> mdke: can wiki pages on wiki.u.c be made immutable? and if so is it easy?
<mdke> LaserJock: yes, and yes :)
<mdke> or rather
<mdke> yes, and no
* mdke slaps himself
<mdke> LaserJock: you'd have to request that access control be activated in the wiki's configuration, and that a group of administrators be set up who can make pages immutable and edit them
<LaserJock> hmm, too much work
<LaserJock> I just wondered if it was trivial
<mdke> fraid not
<mdke> it's easy enough on help.u.c/community
<LaserJock> we are starting to get some policy type pages in MOTU and I thought if it was trivial I might make them immutable
<LaserJock> instead I think I'll just have a nice warning at the top and leave it at that
<LaserJock> mdke: is creating a category on a wiki as simple as just using [Category<Category>]  in your doc?
<mdke> LaserJock: you simple create a page called CategoryLaserjock (I presume there is a template)
<LaserJock> excellent
#ubuntu-doc 2007-01-23
<coreyt> what is s.u.c.
<jjesse> ??
<LaserJock> I would guess screenshots.ubuntu.com
<LaserJock> screencasts.ubuntu.com rather
<popey> 3
<popey> bah
* mdke mornings
<LaserJock> mdke: you genius
<mdke> ?
<mdke> I mean, obviously, but why in particular?
<LaserJock> I'm talking with Revell ATM ;-)
<mdke> about?
<mdke> MOTU contact?
<LaserJock> mhm
<LaserJock> mdke: "I
* mdke boggles
<LaserJock> "I own Matt East a pint :)"
* Madpilot read 'pint' as 'joint' - blames his Left Coast upbringing... ;)
<LaserJock> yeah, we are talking Englishmen not Canadians, shesh ;-)
<mdke> heh
<mdke> tell him I'll waive the pint if he fixes my faq bug
* mdke has to run off to work now
<mdke> cya
<mpt> yo mdke, I'm bemused at your changes to HelpAndSupportAccess
<mdke> mpt: ask away. I removed a couple of things that were inaccurate
<mdke> iirc
<mpt> first, I find it clearer if short adjective phrases use dashes
<mpt> For comparison, <http://www.google.com/search?q=%22two-+or+three-word%22> shows some examples using dashes, some not
<mdke> mpt: ok, I'm not going to challenge that
<mdke> the other bit in line 13 I removed because it's not true, tooltips appear when the mouse is stationary over the menu item; and you don't have to close and reopen the submenu to get tooltips for different menu items
<mpt> oh, I didn't see that change
<mdke> line 22 is self explanatory, right?
<mdke> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpAndSupportAccess?action=diff
<mdke> and line 40 is cosmetic only
<mpt> Tooltips appearing when the mouse is stationary over the menu item == requiring scrubbing
<mpt> it looks like you need to wait for 1 second on each
<mdke> is that a technical term? to be scrubbing involves moving backwards and forwards quickly
<mdke> be/me*
<mdke> I misunderstood I guess
<mdke> like scrubbing the floor
<mpt> http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:K2_sRkQ6yKQJ:www.drunkenblog.com/drunkenblog-archives/000697.html+%22a+scrubbing+interface%22&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1
<mdke> so it does mean moving backwards and forwards?
<mpt> well, it means that you have to hover over something to see what it is
<mpt> so you have to scrub back and forth to find the right thing
<mpt> I guess it's not the greatest term
<mdke> ok, my bad. Maybe you can readd it without using the word "scrub"? :)
<mdke> or I can
<mdke> since I removed it :(
<mpt> no worries, I'll fix it
<mpt> oh, and on a completely different subject
<mpt> was "Exit" ever a submenu?
<mdke> mpt: not to my knowledge, but it is quite similar to the control center effect now
<mpt> ok
<mpt> If it had been, that would be relevant
<mpt> Otherwise I don't think we should be using the Quit dialog as a good example of anything :-)
<mdke> ok
* mdke hos and hums
<LaserJock> why?
<mdke> thinking about translations
<mdke> nixternal: are you here by any chance?
* tonyyarusso whispers enchantingly "diaaalllects....diiiaaaalllecccttsss...."
<nixternal> mdke: I am in class right now, I will be back online at about 2300 UTC
<mdke> nixternal: hmm. I ought to go to bed early, I'll try you tomorrow
<mdke> or email
<nixternal> email will rock!
<LaserJock> mdke: is the packaging guide still being shipped?
<mdke> LaserJock: I'll look
<mdke> not currently
<tonyyarusso> I tried viewing it yesterday, and it said the link was broken / file didn't exist
<mdke> tonyyarusso: being shipped is a different thing to being on the website. Although in this case, perhaps the latter is broken
<LaserJock> mdke: if we keep it that way can I maintian it trunk?
<tonyyarusso> mdke: I mean in the system help on Feisty.
<LaserJock> i.e. no string freeze for me
<tonyyarusso> in yelp
<mdke> LaserJock: it's up to you. What do you want to do with it? Perhaps we could do a standalone package?
<LaserJock> I was thinking about that
<LaserJock> I'm finding that I really shouldn't make it release specific
<mdke> that's ok, but it's nice for people to be able to use it on their system if they want
<LaserJock> yes, so I would propose a seperate package that I release like Debian docs
<mdke> tonyyarusso: ok, can you file a bug? you shouldn't have a linK!
<LaserJock> sort of as needed
<LaserJock> I can't find a link to it
<LaserJock> I think if it wasn't tied to the release schedule I could get more contribution when there are slower times for the devs
<tonyyarusso> mdke: Will do, in a minute.  btw, here's the exact text I got when clicking "Running Server Applications":
<tonyyarusso> The Uniform Resource Identifier file:///usr/share/ubuntu-docs/xml/C/serverguide/serverguide.xml is invalid or does not point to an actual file.
<mdke> tonyyarusso: Oh, server? that's fine
<mdke> tonyyarusso: file a bug anyway, but we were talking about the packaging guide
<LaserJock> and it would also give me an oppritunity to make it a better online resource
<tonyyarusso> mdke: Aaah, okay.
<LaserJock> which I think it the most common use for the packaging guide
<tonyyarusso> mdke: Why is the packaging guide not going to be there now?
<LaserJock> it doesn't really fit in with the rest of the docs, IMO
<mdke> tonyyarusso: i'll leave LaserJock to explain, I've got too many damn windows
<LaserJock> :-)
<tonyyarusso> lol
<LaserJock> tonyyarusso: do you want more?
<tonyyarusso> LaserJock: sure
<LaserJock> heh
<LaserJock> well, as we are moving to TBH the packaging guide has a hard time fitting in
<LaserJock> and packaging is a rather advanced topic
<LaserJock> I wouldn't mind contributing some little "How to rebuild a source package" topic or something like that
<LaserJock> but as a comprehensive guide to packaging in Ubuntu it just doesn't seem like the appropriate place
<mdke> it's more of an online/standalone thing
<LaserJock> the vast majority of packaging guide readers that I've come across read it online or print it out
<LaserJock> even when I mention "it's in the help system" they are like "cool, but I'd rather read it online"
<LaserJock> so while it's kind of a novelty (even mentioned in a magazine review of Ubuntu) it's sort of out of place
<tonyyarusso> Could it be done such that you could apt-get packaging-guide say and then have it show up in yelp henceforth, for people who want it there?
<tonyyarusso> I agree it was out of place for most users before - I once had someone read part of that instead of how to use synaptic.  (....)
<tonyyarusso> I'd rather not have to read things online, since I might want to while I don't have a connection.
<LaserJock> yes, that's how I plan on doing it I think is a seperate package
<mdke> we'll do that with the server guide too
<LaserJock> but I think the focus should be on online/print presentation
<mdke> tonyyarusso: we can't include it in the yelp table of contents easily
<tonyyarusso> mdke: dang
<LaserJock> it seems to be hard to do well with both "system help" and "online help"
<tonyyarusso> mdke: Separate help menu entry?
<LaserJock> I hope not
<LaserJock> for now can't it go under "other documentation"?
<tonyyarusso> Only if you installed it of course, not defaults.  Just picturing how this might end up looking for me.
<mdke> there won't be an "other documentation"
<tonyyarusso> I don't have an "other"
<LaserJock> mdke: where will that stuff go?
* mdke points at the ether
<tonyyarusso> Meanwhile, I question arranging yelp alphabetically.  Shouldn't "New to Ubuntu?" be higher up?
<mdke> it'll be searchable, and the relevant ones will hopefully be linked from relevant pages
<mdke> tonyyarusso: that's just a temporary thing. We have an order in mind
<LaserJock> so useful documentation will be installed on the user's computer but they won't be able to see it?
<tonyyarusso> ah, good
<LaserJock> sometimes yelp is just ... frustrating
<mdke> LaserJock: define useful
<LaserJock> installed
<mdke> you mean Gnome documentation XSLT Manual?
<mdke> or Linux NAT Howto?
<LaserJock> right now I have CUPs, gai, synaptic and those yeah
<LaserJock> my point being, they might not be what we want to present to the user right away
<mdke> right, so those useful ones can be linked
<LaserJock> but surely it should be discoverable
<mdke> probably not cups actually
<LaserJock> well, that's sad, but not your fault
<mdke> well, it's my fault in that I'm totally behind choosing to get rid of it
<LaserJock> well, I think it's kinda bad form to go getting rid of docs that authors have put a lot of time into
<LaserJock> just because they aren't "our" docs
<mdke> LaserJock: no offense, but Linux NAT Howto is not desktop help
<LaserJock> who cares if it's desktop help
<mdke> it's probably great, but it's not going to help our users much
<LaserJock> "desktop" help isn't the only help
<tonyyarusso> Shouldn't we be able to read things that aren't desktop help in a more friendly form than with less?
<LaserJock> just as desktop packages aren't the only packages on a machine
<mdke> you can read em, just open them with yelp
<mdke> or search for them
<mdke> name me one person that has opened their help system and gone "oh wow, Linux Nat Howto, I'll read that in the help system, because it's probably right up to date with the online version"
<tonyyarusso> that seems odd though.  Normally you'd at least be able to make some sort of crapbin section to stuff them into
<LaserJock> I do that!
<LaserJock> that's the only reason I use the help
<mdke> LaserJock: you've got some issues
<mdke> go read the online version, it's much more likely to be up tod ate
<LaserJock> because the stuff we ship is pretty trivial
<mdke> anyway, we need to take care of people who can't find the help first
<LaserJock> it's important for user for sure
<tonyyarusso> I can't, but I can name myself as someone who's read docs in less or Firefox, and said dang I wish this were prettier and/or accessible offline
<LaserJock> mdke: I agree
<mdke> people like you guys can type "linux nat" into the help box
<tonyyarusso> Four and a half months of the year I am _unable_ to read documentation online.  It wouldn't be fair to my family.
<LaserJock> actually I just surf around for that stuff
<LaserJock> I don't use the search box
<LaserJock> but maybe that's my problem :-)
<tonyyarusso> Usually I only use search boxes if I don't really know what I want.  I'm used to being able to just find it.  If I have to search, it usually means something bad, either on my end or the docs'/site's
<LaserJock> anyway, I know where you are coming from mdke
<mdke> hope so
<LaserJock> the current view in that sidebar is not so great
<mdke> you'll like it when you see it
<LaserJock> I just feel like we are pushing down the software authors to achieve our goals
<tonyyarusso> Yeah, I do too - I just think it's one step too far.  I _should_ be tucked away somewhat, so it doesn't provide clutter / confusion for most users, but should still be available in a submenu or something for convenience, imo.
<LaserJock> like there should be a "see all documentation" button or something
<LaserJock> mdke: well, I comes down to I trust you. :-)
* mdke phews
* mdke passes the blame onto mpt
<LaserJock> I have my reservations, but I trust that you ( and mpt too) know more about what our users need than me
<mdke> we could make an "advanced documentation" topic which links the users to the GNU Info/Man pages and your precious Linux Nat Howto, I guess
<mdke> i would consider it a bad idea though, myself
<tonyyarusso> Why?
<mdke> because the newer users would click on it hoping for inspiration, and would get gibberish
<LaserJock> well, I think the search thing will eventually be the way to go anyway
<LaserJock> people who don't really know what to search for will need guidance
<tonyyarusso> What new user clicks something labelled "Advanced"?  Most get scared and run away.
<LaserJock> they all click it :-)
<LaserJock> people are curious
<mdke> tonyyarusso: no, I disagree, it sounds like it means you can do cool things. Also, even a user who has mastered the rest of the topics is going to be put off by man pages
<tonyyarusso> hmm
<tonyyarusso> Is there another word we could use?
<LaserJock> but it does seem like we could use some middle ground
<mdke> tonyyarusso: "DON'T CLICK"
<tonyyarusso> "Utterly terrifying hacker-speek!"
<mdke> LaserJock: the middle ground is the search
<LaserJock> does the search give any preference for doc names?
<mdke> but Linux is trying to reach the world of real computer users, and I think we should too. The days of providing power linux users with man pages is in the past, at least for Ubuntu, IMHO
<tonyyarusso> Now that's where I lose you.
<tonyyarusso> Absolutely we should be reaching out to less experienced users.
<tonyyarusso> But why does that mean we have to tell the experienced linux users to shut up and use Gentoo instead?
<mdke> because they are 0.01% of the market?
<mdke> maybe less
<mdke> anyway, that's not what we're telling them to do
<tonyyarusso> So?  We don't actually lose anything by it.
<mdke> gentoo users don't use Yelp for reading man pages either, they type "man whatever", like Ubuntu power linux users
<tonyyarusso> It seems like it, if you start removing options from the documentation.
<LaserJock> we are saying "we think you are smart enough to use the search" :-)
<mdke> tonyyarusso: we do lose something by it, we lose a help system that is nice for the 99.9%, like other operating systems will do
<Burgwork> man and info pages are written almost to assume you already know the tool and just need a reminder of what switches are there
<tonyyarusso> mdke: Even by hiding it away?
<Burgwork> they are very bad a telling you things like: I want to do X or Y
<LaserJock> yes, but there is a lot of stuff besided man and info pages in there though
<mpt> mdke, oh, *now* you're warming to "Advanced topics" :-P
<LaserJock> I think the man and info shoudl could go, I really do
<mdke> mpt: no, I was trying to placate the onslaught
<LaserJock> :-)
<mpt> in which I think one of the subsections should be "Reference manuals (man)"
<mdke> mpt: anyway, your advanced topics is not the sort of thing they're talking about
<mdke> it doesn't even mention Linux NAT Howto
<mdke> or Gnome Documentation XSLT Reference Manual
<LaserJock> I know there is some really useful documentation in there and I think it's a shame to take that away from people
<mpt> I don't know what a NAT is, except that it's something to do with networking and IP addresses
<LaserJock> but, I think the search function is probably a good middle ground there
<mpt> I'm sure it's important, because Ekiga screams at me about it during setup
<mdke> mpt: oh, then it *must* be important :)
<mpt> :-P
<mpt> Actually, what I'd love
* mdke leaves mpt to LaserJock and tonyyarusso 
<mpt> is for mdz to come along and say "the documentation is allowed to take up X MB on the CD, and no more"
<LaserJock> maybe
<mpt> Then once we'd reached that limit, for each new thing we'd have to discuss whether it was more helpful than something we were already including
<LaserJock> I'd almost rather see the documentation not installed than it not be discoverable
<tonyyarusso> mpt: For the things we're talking about I don't think it matters what's on the CD.  I'm happy to apt-get docs, I just want them easily accessible once I do.
<mdke> mpt: most of the least useful documentation is installed with packages that are essential parts of the system
<LaserJock> tonyyarusso: exactly
<mpt> mdke, yes
<mpt> but we can fix that
<mpt> the GDP takes patches :-)
<mdke> eventually
<LaserJock> but gnome is not everything
<mpt> Have they been slow in your experience? (I haven't tried, tbh)
<mdke> nah, they're good
<LaserJock> as tonyyarusso has brought up, we have lots and lots of packages in Universe with documentation
<mdke> LaserJock: most of it isn't in Yelp though
<LaserJock> a fair amount is
<LaserJock> and I think more should be
<mpt> LaserJock, if a package is graphical, it should have a Help menu/button that loads the help
<mdke> well, if mallard happens then there will likely be a good way to integrate it
<mpt> And if it's not, it should have a man page (which yelp should automatically pick up in the aforementioned "Reference manuals" section)
<LaserJock> mpt: but we ship a lot of stuff that is neither
<LaserJock> dive into python
<LaserJock> debian policy
<LaserJock> gtk tutorial
<LaserJock> etc.
<mpt> Dive Into Python, I would put in "Advanced topics" > "Writing your own programs"
<LaserJock> it just seems a waste to have documentation available but not be able to get at it reasonably easily
<mpt> same for gtk tutorial
<mdke> mpt: you can't.
<mpt> Debian policy, wtf are we doing shipping that?
<mdke> the link will be broken if the package isn't installed
<mpt> ah
<LaserJock> mpt: heh, it's required for every package
<mdke> hence the crapbin "Other DocumentatioN" that yelp uses
<tonyyarusso> mpt: That would be lovely if there were those sections in yelp.
<LaserJock> well, let me rephrase that
<mdke> unless we create a new scrollkeeper category and amend all those packages to go into it
<tonyyarusso> No way to update yelp links based on installed packages?  Or, even better, make it like discussed for file formats - if the link is broken it prompts you to install the package?
<LaserJock> every package conforms to a specific version fo the Debian Policy
<LaserJock> so we should provide what that policy is
<mdke> oh, actually, there is x-yelp-toc:#ApplicationsProgramming
<mdke> mpt: ^^
<mdke> my bad
<mdke> ok, let's do your sodding Advanced Topics
<mdke> you think the server stuff should be hidden in there?
<mpt> yep
<mdke> that'll be tricky
<mdke> unless it's a single entry
<LaserJock> I almost think we'll have to do it mdke's way while we are still trapped with yelp
<LaserJock> it seems aweful to try to mess around with it
<mdke> I'm starting to come round to this advanced topics thing
<LaserJock> :-)
<LaserJock> I think I'm going to stay out of it
<mdke> but I don't think "Other Documentation" can go in there, we can do programming stuff, GNU info, man pages and such.
<mdke> all the other categories can be linked from other topics, like x-yelp-toc:#ApplicationsMultimedia and stuff
<LaserJock> where will Desktop and Applications items go?
* mdke points at his last sentence
* LaserJock points out his confusion
<LaserJock> what do you mean by other topics?
<mdke> the ones we have already
<LaserJock> but there is more in there than what we have
<mdke> suggestions welcome
<LaserJock> so for example, where does Applications -> Scientific go?
<mdke> let's just make 400 topics
<LaserJock> no, no, I'm just trying to figure out the system
<LaserJock> if it doesn't have a specific link it will get dropped out of TOC
<dr-evil> four hundred BILLION topics!
<LaserJock> and just be available as via search?
<mdke> LaserJock: we've already done that to some of our own docs
<LaserJock> but that's the way it will go, trying to confirm my understanding, not pick a fight ;-)
<mdke> pending any better ideas
<LaserJock> ok, well I'm fairly ok with it
<LaserJock> a lot of those sections are pretty empty anyway, search is probably more effective than trying to hunt down which section things are under
* LaserJock returns everyone to their regularlly scheduled programs
<LaserJock> ;-)
#ubuntu-doc 2007-01-24
<nixternal> yay
<mdke> so what are we gonna have in this Advanced Topics thing?
<tonyyarusso> Whatever we can?
* mdke slaps tonyyarusso 
<tonyyarusso> ow!
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: mdke * r3716 /trunk/ (5 files in 3 dirs): advanced topics category
<mdke> mpt, LaserJock, ^^ have added something cursory, feel free to suggest things
<mpt> mdke, I suggested subtopics at the bottom of https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuHelp/Contents
<mdke> mpt: yeah, saw em
<mdke> mpt: it only includes certain sections of the server material though, it's tricky to include some bits and not others
<mdke> I'd rather have a separate server topic, probably
<mpt> It also has a "...", so feel free to include others ...
<mpt> I haven't looked at the ToC of the Server Guide recently, though
<mdke> mpt: the standalone version (to be trimmed for the help system) is http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/serverguide/C/
<mpt> that's weird
<mdke> essentially, we'll remove everything before chapter 4
<mpt> In Edgy, the Server Guide has the title "Ubuntu"
<mdke> missing entities
<mdke> fix is in -proposed
<mpt> heh
<mpt> fair enough
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: mdke * r3717 ubuntu/C/advanced-topics/advanced-topics.xml: add a link for potential action
<Ubugtu> New bug: #42454 in ubuntu-doc "Documentation should include greater detail about setting up difficult network hardware" [Medium,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/42454
<mpt> Ubugtu, no it isn't.
<Madpilot> talking to the bot?
<somerville32> mdke: Are you sleeping?
<stdin> hi, there is a small problem with the Debugging Sound Problems page (https://help.ubuntu.com/community/DebuggingSoundProblems), under "Manually installing sound drivers" it gives the command "echo options [module-name]  [module-options]  >> /etc/modprobe.d/[module-name] " which won't work as the user has no permission to write there. It should be changed to "echo options [module-name]  [module-options]  | sudo tee -a /etc/modprobe.d/[module-name] "
<somerville32> stdin: Please feel free to update it if you're sure you're correct.
<stdin> ok, I will :)
<somerville32> Thanks! :)
<niru> hello all
<niru> is mdks available here
<somerville32> No, he is sleeping. Please leave a message after the beep.
* somerville32 beeps.
<niru> shall I sent now
<niru> shall I send now
<niru> mdks:I want to help in documentation
<somerville32> There is a wiki page that documents how to do just that
<niru> mdks:what I need to do
<niru> mdks:can I get a  mail from you in this regard
<niru> mdks:My e-mail id is nayanarout1233@yahoo.co.in
<niru> mdks:and is anybody going to assign a task to me
<somerville32> niru: There is no one named mdks here.
<Burgundavia> mdke: is the person you need
<Burgundavia> mdke: ^ see above, niru's comments
<niru> is it
<willvdl> will interwiki links work between wiki.u.c and help.u.c?
* froud asks more on #ubuntu-devel
<fijam> hello
<somerville32> :) hi
<medders> hello
<somerville32> mdke: Hi
<mdke> willvdl: wiki:Ubuntu/PageName works from help -> wiki, probably not the other way around though
<mdke> somerville32: hi
<K_Mandla> Hello all.
<mdke> evening K_Mandla
<K_Mandla> hey hey. I have a question ...
<K_Mandla> would i be overstepping my bound by splitting off a lot of the info on applications on lightweight window managers?
<K_Mandla> pages like openbox, icewm, fvwm-crystal and others say the same things, ad nauseum
<K_Mandla> silence means consent ... :D
<mdke> K_Mandla: where's the page?
<K_Mandla> i'm looking at openbox, fvwm-crystal, some others like icewm
<mdke> generally if there is a decent amount of material, it's a good idea
<K_Mandla> is there a proper way to do that, like installation/lowmemorysystems/lighweightapps?
<K_Mandla> *lightweightapplications ...
<mdke> just the one level subpage, I would have thought
<K_Mandla> ok
<K_Mandla> i'm still in wiki weekend mode, if you hadn't noticed
<mdke> LightweightDesktops?
<mdke> that's great!
<mdke> make every day a wiki day
<K_Mandla> i couldn't find anything under that
<K_Mandla> this would be more about apps
<K_Mandla> the ob page talks about feh, so does fluxbox, iirc
<K_Mandla> all of them could
<mdke> well, to a normal user there isn't much of a different between a window manager and a desktop
<K_Mandla> things like that
<K_Mandla> right on.
<jenda> Hey, K_Mandla
<K_Mandla> hey jenda
<Madpilot> Crap - that spammer hit wiki.u.c again...
<mdke> same one?
<Burgwork> yep
<mdke> different account?
<Madpilot> looks like the same account
<Madpilot> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kypir?action=AttachFile
<Burgwork> nothing on help
<Madpilot> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RecentChanges - 10hrs ago
<Madpilot> I thought the LP admins had killed that account for us
<mdke> me too
<jjesse> i thought it was itneresting how long recent chnages was :)
<jjesse> i was suprised he didn't change the name of the images
<Madpilot> they're html files, not images. and now they're all gone - again
<Madpilot> mdke, you in #launchpad to get an admin's attention?
<mdke> trying yeah
#ubuntu-doc 2007-01-25
<nixternal> oi!
<nixternal> hmm, how does that guy manage to get through w/o the Wiki sending me an email?
<mdke> maybe you don't get mail for attachments
<nixternal> hrmm, very well could be
<nixternal> holy jesus. so it was all nudies again?
<mdke> nixternal is wishing he got those emails :)
<nixternal> people can't even spam stuff respectfully
<nixternal> haha mdke not really
<mdke> "if you want to spam the wiki, please spam it with useful and relevant documentation"
<nixternal> haha yes
<nixternal> or if you want to be an idiot, spam it with BSD junk or SuSE junk :)
<nixternal> DAMN! there was a shemale one!!!
<nixternal> hahahaha
* nixternal throws up his yogurt and smoothie
* willvdl still reels from tubgirl
<nixternal> omg
<nixternal> please no tubgirl
<nixternal> you know, I started a pretty horrid campaign years back, and when you googled tubgirl, my name would pop up first
<mpt> What was horrid about that? Wouldn't that be saving people from themselves?
<willvdl> nixternal, you were tubgirl?
<tonyyarusso> I'm not sure I want to know...
<nixternal> ewww
<jjesse> that will haunt my dreams forever if it is true
<jjesse> nixternal: how did that debdiff go?
<mdke> nixternal: so, I'm thinking vaguely about changing the structure of the new structure :(
<nixternal> I need to redo it, to fix one other thing. I am getting ready for my Psychology class (maybe than can tell me what's wrong)
<nixternal> s/than/they
<mdke> the problem is translations: we need to have a way to keep the po files separately for each document, and I think the only way to do that properly is going to be to have a structure like ubuntu/documentname/C/documentname.xml
<mdke> as opposed to the current ubuntu/C/documentname/documentname
* jjesse is afk out w/ wife :)
<nixternal> trunk/ubuntu/sysdocs/games/C/games.xml ??
<mdke> well, yeah, without the sysdocs
<nixternal> well, that would populate the main ubuntu dir and if someone besides you and I, or anyone else creating the packages, might just grab a bunch of nonsense (i.e., unused) and package it
<nixternal> I know someone who did that with Kubuntu docs for Edgy (and it wasn't none of us)
<mdke> well, that won't happen this time
<mdke> we'll document things if necessary, but more importantly, I'm not going on holiday
<nixternal> hehe
<mdke> the more serious issue is going to be linking between documents
<nixternal> so I have noticed
<mdke> no, now it's fine
<mdke> I mean, if we change
<mdke> the way to do it is probably going to have to be to use the clever gnome/kde thing
<nixternal> well, for Kubuntu we build everything into HTML which is a waste of time
<nixternal> if we took all of the Kubuntu docs and named then *.docbook then KHelpCenter will do the building natively
<nixternal> mv *.xml *.docbook
<mdke> it's faster to have it as html though
<jjesse> then we should follow docbook.template as well for kubuntu docs :)
<nixternal> mdke: how so?
<mdke> nixternal: because building something to html on the fly takes quite a lot of time
* mdke points at yelp
<nixternal> less than 1 second
<nixternal> I have tested it over and over and have to when I build KDE docs
<mdke> anyway, that wasn't remotely related to what I was talking about
<mdke> I don't want to get into a discussion about that at midnight :)
<nixternal> of course, to spead the process we can also create simple cache.tar.gz files as well but it isn't noticeable
<mdke> I was talking about links from one of our docs to the other
<nixternal> mdke: yes, it works great for Yelp when you link to an xml file, but with Kubuntu docs, when we build the files out to HTML, the xml links stay as xml links, which makes them all broken
<mdke> right, so we should use the clever linking thing
<nixternal> what i have been doing is this <ulink url="../directory/">Blah</ulink> that way there it will pick up the index.html file automatically and won't seem broken
<mdke> ouch
<nixternal> but it makes it difficult to link to a specific header of course
<mdke> but kde has a clever linking thing, I can't remember what it is off the top of my head
<nixternal> help:/
<mdke> right
<nixternal> of course that is clever, but not for http://
<nixternal> so putting it on help.ubuntu.com will cause nothing but a ton of broken links once again
<mdke> nixternal: well, there isn't any solution to that
<mdke> for help.u.c we should probably just export stuff to moin and integrate it with the wiki docs, I reckon
<nixternal> sure there is. Kubuntu docs end with .docbook and we can link to ../blah/blah.docbook#blah and it will work in KHelpCenter, Konqueror, and when built to HTML it will work there as well
<mdke> nixternal: how will that work when you put it on http?
<nixternal> mdke: they will build out just like they did with the old desktop guide
<mdke> the old desktop guide didn't have any links to other documents
<mdke> there *isn't* any way of making links to other system docs work when built as html, that I'm aware of
<nixternal> Yes, but what I was trying to refer to is how with the old DG we could <xref linkend="doowop"/>
<mdke> nixternal: that doesn't work with another document
<nixternal> hrmm, you are right :)
<mdke> so, let's not worry about fixing something we can't fix
<nixternal> because if I link to .docbook and it is an article and not a book/chapter format, it won't work
<mdke> so, I think we should change the directory structure and use the clever help:/ links
<nixternal> the help:/ links and linking ../directory/ will do pretty much the same unless I am linking to a KDE doc and not Ubuntu/Kubuntu doc
<mdke> well, it's less hacky
<nixternal> or we just put PDF files on help.ubuntu.com :)
<mdke> and it will be better for linking to KDE docs
<nixternal> mdke: I will go through and look at implementing the help:/ and testing it out of course
<mdke> there are about 100 links in the Ubuntu side :)
<nixternal> I am scared to look on the Kubuntu side
<nixternal> I need to blog and get some people to help with the Kubuntu side
<mdke> find a replace will work though
<nixternal> jjesse and myself are going to implode
<mdke> hopefully when people see a nice help system they'll want to contribute
<nixternal> this weekend I plan on a full doc sweep of Kubuntu stuff
<nixternal> mdke: you know what is going to suck, what we are doing now on Kubuntu will all probably change for Feisty+1
* LaserJock 's head explodes
<nixternal> unless they continue with KHelpCenter
<nixternal> haha LaserJock
<nixternal> LaserJock: next semester I have to take them stupid Physics courses, how much do you cost for homework consultation?
<nixternal> ;p
<LaserJock> generally I cost $30/hr
<nixternal> Great, you said "generally", so that means I get it for free then :)
<LaserJock> but I might make a deal for a friend ;-)
<nixternal> wow, I have a friend. Wait until I tell my family, they will be so proud of me :)
<nixternal> next semester is Math, Physics, Journalism, Tech Writing, and 2 programming courses
<nixternal> Journalism and Tech Writing is so I can learn how to write effective documents for stuff like Kubuntu :p
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: mdke * r3718 ubuntu/C/switching/ (5 files): Phil's patch
<nixternal> well well well, I see old Phill Bull is back!
<nixternal> whatever happened to Plug as well, he used to tear apart my stuff as it wasn't up to par for the NZ LUG :)
<mdke> oh, that's a good excuse to ask for svn access for him, I reckon
<mdke> anyone disagree?
<nixternal> I definitely don't disagree for Phil
<nixternal> he is good to have
<nixternal> alrighty, I need to get to class so I can get one of the good seats
<LaserJock> oh geeze
<LaserJock> I always stayed in the back
<nixternal> hehe
<LaserJock> I wonder how I've made it through 9 years of uni
<nixternal> me too, then you get to see all the cute ones
<nixternal> haha
<LaserJock> see, there's your problem
<LaserJock> too much distraction
<nixternal> oh no!
<nixternal> haha
<nixternal> LaserJock: it is either them or sleep
<LaserJock> oh boy
<nixternal> this class goes until 9:30, I need something to waste my time on
<nixternal> OK, enough procrastinating
<nixternal> I just shreaded that word
<nixternal> later
<nixternal> jjesse: building new package now (hopefully I didn't boog the rules with a typo)
<nixternal> boo
<bdmurray> boo who?
<nixternal> why are you crying?
<nixternal> haha
<nixternal> time for sKool
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-doc.log
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-doc.log
<mdke> oooofff
<tonyyarusso> murrrff
<mdke> my router has died
<mdke> I've had to knock up some emergency internet using chicken wire and my flatmate's Windows XP computer :(
<dsas> sounds macguyver-esque
<tonyyarusso> wow
<mdke> dsas: you wouldn't know how to make a speedtouch 330 work on Ubuntu would you?
<mdke> I had a look at the guide but it looks bloody hard
<dsas> mdke: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UKSpeedtouchDSLHowTo help?
<mdke> so so
<mdke> the thing that bothers me about it is that it's significantly different from the other speedtouch page
<dsas> hmm, they look the same except the UKSpeedtouchDSLHowTo refers you to somewhere else or an unofficial package to install the firmware
<mdke> afterwards the setting up the connection part is a lot easier on the UK page
<dsas> also the UKSpeedtouchDSLHowTo one only shows how to do PPPoA
<mdke> anyhow, I tried both without success so far, but I haven't tried installing the firmware yet because the thing seems to work on its own
<mdke> the lights come on ok when I plug it in
<mdke> i probably need to try the firmware, but it's a drag.
<dsas> heh, router shopping time tomorrow perhaps.
<mdke> they are sending me a new one, but it will take a couple of weeks I guess
<dsas> ah, BT provided one?
<mdke> no, i bought it a couple of years ago
<dsas> still has a return to base warranty? cool.
<mdke> after 2 weeks trying to get the crappy speedtouch to work on gentoo :)
<mdke> yeah it's a lifetime warranty, they did good service actually - I rang up and told them the lights were offand no one was home, and they said, ok, we'll send a new one
<dsas> cool, which brand was that?
<mdke> Belkin, surprisingly
<mdke> but two weeks is going to be tricky
<dsas> yeah I bet. Haven't a clue about a speedtouch personally, we bought a modem/router straight away...
<dsas> maybe someone in -UK will know. or more likely the forums.
<mdke> I'm sure it can be done, because I got it working in gentoo
<mdke> by that time, the router had arrived :)
<dsas> heh, *insert joke about gentoo and compilation times*
<mdke> mm
<mdke> i'll try and share the internet on my flatmate's computer through his wireless network card, maybe that will work
#ubuntu-doc 2007-01-26
<Ubugtu> New bug: #77506 in ubuntu-doc "help.ubuntu.com page about ntpd is misleading" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/77506
<Brady_M> Hello, Is Matt East here?
<dsas> Brady_M: Nope he's not,
<Brady_M> I had questions about the screen cast project
<crimsun> isn't that popey-related?
<Brady_M> Tried emailing him, but mail got rejected.
<dsas> crimsun: Yeah popey has been heading up the screencast thing.
<dsas> Brady_M: mdke is having internet problems at the minute, maybe that is why...
<dsas> Brady_M: you should probably try emailing ubuntu-doc@lists.ubuntu.com that'll put you in touch with the whole team
<dsas> Brady_M: Maybe I, or anyone else listening can answer your questions though, it can't hurt to ask.
<dsas> though I wouldn't bank on it ;)
<Brady_M> ok, well, I saw the article on it, and I was interested in it. Because just a few weeks ago, I had posted some vids to just help people out on just a basic install of it, because I thought that one's I saw on youtube skipped important stuff that a novice user wouldn't think about doing before trying to install it. I was trying to mail him a link because I kind of put as much detail in it as possible to prevent any hangups for 
<somerville32> E-mail him at mdke@ubuntu.com :)
<Brady_M> somerville: tried mail got rejected.
<dsas> Brady_M: Cool, I'm sure popey and the other team members would like your input.
<Brady_M> not in the "trusted list"
<dsas> Brady_M: try ubuntu-doc@lists.ubuntu.com
<Brady_M> alrighty then
<dsas> Brady_M: You will have to wait for moderation, unless you are subscribed but that's usually done fairly quickly I think.
<Brady_M> no problem
<Brady_M> do I need to add "add me" in the subjectline, or just a blank mail?
<Brady_M> this a listserv?
<dsas> Brady_M: Yeah, it's a mailman list.
<dsas> Brady_M: lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-doc probably can answer that question...
<Brady_M> ok
<Brady_M> *sigh* I just repasted the email I sent. I sent previously a blank mail. my apologies to any of you on the list. not trying to junk up your inboxes
<popey> Brady_M: good morning
<popey> Brady_M: you can also mail me:- alanpope@ubuntu.com
<glatzor> Burgwork: hi, do you know why the German translation of the desktop guide was not included in the latest edgy-updates release of ubuntu-docs
<LaserJock> arggg, why is the packaging guide broken again?
<glatzor> hi LaserJock, do you know when mdke will be back?
#ubuntu-doc 2007-01-27
* mdke waves
<LaserJock> mdke!
<mdke> ello
<mdke> fill me in on the goss
<LaserJock> dude, for some reason the packaging guide is broken on doc.ubuntu.com
<mdke> right, is it ok in the Makefile?
* mdke tickles LaserJock
<LaserJock> mdke: well, I don't know but it validates
<LaserJock> let me check
<mdke> it's probably not even in the Makefile, I guess
<dsas> hmm, shouldn't the java installation stuff just be "enable multiverse, install packages x,y,z" rather than the long instructions we have now?
<mdke> dsas: probably, where's the long bit?
<dsas> in programming.xml
<dsas> it's got instructions that talk about visiting the sun website etc
<nixternal> LaserJock: it builds fine on the Kubuntu side
<nixternal> or at least it did
<nixternal> http://doc.ubuntu.com/kubuntu/packagingguide/
<LaserJock> nixternal: is the packaging guide still shipped in kubuntu-docs?
<nixternal> yes
<LaserJock> nixternal: ubuntu-docs doesn't
<nixternal> well, we can remove it if necessary
<LaserJock> nixternal: that would be lovely ;-)
<nixternal> OK, so remove the PG from the Kubuntu docs, how about the Server Guide, is this still going to be packaged with Kubuntu docs?
<LaserJock> not sure
<LaserJock> maybe you should email the list
<LaserJock> I think I'm going to make a separate package for the packaging guide
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal * r3719 kubuntu/C/internet/internet.xml: Kubuntu Internet content added
<nixternal> here we go with the stupid d c c attacks
<somerville32> :] 
<coreyt> Opinion Please.  Would it be better to create a new ubuntu focused distro for a network management server or something like automatix to put one together from a server install.
<dsas> something like automatix is never good.
<coreyt> So in that sense you are probably against CNR for Ubuntu when it comes out in a few months?
<dsas> coreyt: Probably. Haven't read about it yet.
<dsas> coreyt: What do you need to do to create  a "network management server" that Ubuntu doesn't do already?
<coreyt> I'm talking about something that can easily get Nagios, Cacti and other network management apps working quickly.
<coreyt> Nagios is  pain to configure.  It's 2.x and Ubuntu's are 1.x
<coreyt> In fact I've ran into Perl CPAN dependency hell.
<crimsun> !nagios2 feisty
<coreyt> lol
<crimsun> err, sorry, wrong channel.
<crimsun> the fact of the matter is that nagios2 certainly exists in 7.04.
<coreyt> I wont set up anything unless it's on 6.06.
<crimsun> ask for a backport to dapper, then.
<coreyt> ah nagios2.. I may have missed it :)
<coreyt> yeah I wish people would maintain package updates better.
<coreyt> Of course then you have people who tinker with the app so a update may break things :)
<nixternal> eww CNR ;p
<LaserJock> now, now
<nixternal> I read that CNR offers its users Firefox 1.5
<nixternal> haha
<nixternal> CNR == Crap Nobody Reallywants
<nixternal> :)
<LaserJock> well, I do wonder if that kind of idea is the way of the future
<nixternal> it could be, but I don't want to be a part of it
<LaserJock> heh
<LaserJock> you've seen how hard it is to maintain packages
<nixternal> same with the composite stuff as it stands, it is a great thing to draw people in, I don't like and probably won't use it, but it is something we could probably use
<nixternal> LaserJock: remember with CNR who knows who is maintaining the packages, plus if they are offering Firefox 1.5 for their users, they aren't doing a good enough job of maintaining
<LaserJock> well sure
<LaserJock> that's why I don't like it right now
<LaserJock> but in the future I wonder
<nixternal> no need for a CNR MOTU when we have you and crimsun  :)
<LaserJock> a big problem I see is that Ubuntu is so far removed from the software authors
<nixternal> you never know. People pushed and pushed for Automatix and Easy Ubuntu, but after realising they are garbage, nobody is pushing for it anymore
<nixternal> I have noticed that as well concerning the upstream authors
<LaserJock> the only way I could see us doing better is by actually doing the distribution at the author level
<nixternal> I would love to help out more, but it seems stuff I have done gets put off because everyone is busy.
<nixternal> and it annoys me at times
<LaserJock> where?
<nixternal> I have been packaging stuff local here for Edgy and haven't done much Feisty stuff since last month probably
<nixternal> some of my merges or synch requests that I have filed
<nixternal> they go unanswered for a month or so and usually end up being rejected because something newer has come out in the mean time
<nixternal> it is of course nobodies fault, and that is the one bad thing about MOTU. there aren't enough of them
<LaserJock> it's definately an issue
<LaserJock> I'm not really sure what we're going to do
<nixternal> I swear, I would owe crimsun a million dollars if he charged me $5 for every packaging question/help that I have received from him
<LaserJock> yep
<nixternal> as a matter of fact, I would say 90% of my work has been uploaded by him, with Riddell doing a few for me as well
<nixternal> my goal for Feisty was to make MOTU, but as it seems that will have to wait for Feisty+1
<LaserJock> oh, I don't know, there's still quite a bit of time
<nixternal> as I need some funky key signing now, and the time to work ratio has shrunk, leaving me with a lot of doc work left to do
<LaserJock> yeah
<nixternal> tomorrow and Sunday are my free days now as I am doing the school thing for 12 hours a day Monday - Friday
<LaserJock> I think some of our problem is as MOTU have been sucked into the Ubuntu community they get involved in other teams
<LaserJock> and pretty soon they have very little time for MOTU work
<nixternal> or they just disappear
<LaserJock> well, but that will occur in any team
<nixternal> true
<LaserJock> but it seems kinda prominent in MOTU right now
<nixternal> I have stuck it out for a year so far, and the only thing burning me right now is the LoCo stuff
<nixternal> I don't see myself leaving Kubuntu anytime soon. I am KDE for a long time and Kubuntu is the best there is if you ask me
<nixternal> Mepis is good, but it just has better artwork I think
<nixternal> Slackware, it would take a lot for me to go back to it now after getting so used to Debian
<nixternal> ya, plus I forgot I am on a couple of KDE teams now, one being KDE documentation for KDE 4 and KOffice 2 now
<nixternal> hell, they even gave me server access and all that good stuff
<LaserJock> cool
<LaserJock> my problem is I don't want to "pick" KDE or Gnome
<crimsun> nixternal: well, thankfully I won't be monopolizing the sponsorship. There are a handful stepping up now.
<nixternal> hehe
<nixternal> next time you are in Chicago, I need my key signed, so when my day comes I will be covered :)
<nixternal> there aren't any DDs or MOTUs in Chicago that I know of
<crimsun> I'll be in o'hare for a layover next weekend
<nixternal> most OSS people here either use Slackware, BSD, or Emacs :)
<nixternal> oh really now
<nixternal> how long is that layover?
<crimsun> 30 mins
<nixternal> lol
<crimsun> yeah, "no layover" essentially.
<nixternal> umm, unless I want to go to prison, i can't meet ya then :)
<nixternal> as it is easy to rush through and get all the way to a gate before you are busted anyways
<LaserJock> heh
<LaserJock> can see the planet post
<nixternal> like my flight to Calgary a couple months back. The security guy asked me if I was going to alert him that someone walked past undetected. I told him I wasn't a hero
<LaserJock> weird
<nixternal> ya, I have no clue why he asked me that, but he got that for a response
<nixternal> and when they ask you to remove your shoes, don't ask them to take their top off first or do the "you show me yours, I will show you mine" joke
<LaserJock> oh geeze
<nixternal> ya, I usually miss my flight because of them
* LaserJock is too much of a conformist
<nixternal> or have to rush to get there
<LaserJock> I don't rock the boat
<LaserJock> I just stand in line like the rest of the cows
<nixternal> LaserJock: I usually am myself, but I can't stand ignorance one bit, but those are good jokes though, and darn funny <larry the cable guy>dem dare is funny, i dun care who yaar</larry the cable guy>
<nixternal> for instance, today at school (the MBA school), our first day in this class, the teacher gives a test, worth 250 points, the only test larger than this is the finals which are worth 300 points
<nixternal> it took most people 4 to 5 hours to complete the stupid test
<nixternal> heh, I guess you would get the for instance part since I was in the wrong channel
<nixternal> s/would/wouldn't/
<LaserJock> oh, I thought it went with the "but I can't stand ignorance one bit" part ;-)
<nixternal> well, I guess it could go with that, however ignorant it may be, he got our attention
<coreyt> Actually the new CNR will work through the Ubuntu package repository.  So Ubuntu maintains what goes into CNR.
<coreyt> nixternal, our CIO mentioned the MBA this week.  Said it's going to be worthless if reports of 50% of students cheat keep cropping up.
<LaserJock> coreyt: I don't understand, why would you use CNR then?
<coreyt> It provides more than synaptic does
<coreyt> given I use apt when I know what I'm looking for though.
<coreyt> CNR is what people will want so they can look at an app and see reviews and stuff on how others liked the program.
<LaserJock> sure, but that kind of stuff is  being worked on in Ubuntu
<coreyt> Today you have to do that through google and joe linux is not going to bother searching stuff up he'll just give up on package management.
<LaserJock> google?
<LaserJock> that's what g-a-i is for
<coreyt> I have no idea what that is so I'm going to guess nobody else who just comes to linux will either.
<coreyt> I've been using Linux since redhat 5
<LaserJock> heh
<LaserJock> it's "Add/Remove Applications" in the menu
<boredandblogging> hello, jdong over in #ubuntuforums suggested I post my question here: is there any documentation that needs a home? I just saw a thread on how the author of "How to install anything in Ubuntu" couldn't maintain it anymore. Just wonder if there was a resource for locating other projects that needed homes.
<LaserJock> hmm
<boredandblogging> basically I've got some space and bandwidth to spare
<LaserJock> we have our own servers
<coreyt> same here, but I'm looking to redo into mediawiki
<boredandblogging> Are the servers for official ubuntu docs?
<coreyt> boredandblogging, mine are not
<coreyt> how many page views does this get?
<coreyt> I can see why, it's bandwidth intensive, should have gone with some smaller or lossier previews and a click for full rez.
<LaserJock> boredandblogging: well, we have the shipped docs, and community wiki
<boredandblogging> LaserJock: I understand, I just thought someone who wrote up a webpage on their own might need hosting. I know about the official and gwos.org site. Just wondering random other folks who wrote up HOWTOs or a tutorial would need some place to store it.
<LaserJock> well, I don't know of any
<LaserJock> we encourgage everyone to work on help.ubuntu.com
<LaserJock> so that users on have to go to one URL
<boredandblogging> yup, that makes sense. thanks for the help guys.
<LaserJock> boredandblogging: thanks for the offer though, it's great to see people wanting to help out
<boredandblogging> no problem
<coreyt> How do you guys deal with documentation that shows some tricky things to do with linux.
<coreyt> With any how-to there's always the chance you could cause a less skilled user to screw up their system.
<LaserJock> well
<LaserJock> we really try hard
<LaserJock> and have lots of review
<LaserJock> and try to get dev review
<LaserJock> and use GUI whenever possible
<coreyt> Is there an entry telling users to not install Beryl on Dapper :)
<LaserJock> hmm, not sure exactly
<LaserJock> there is a fair amount of Beryl/Compiz material
<LaserJock> but I'm not sure if there is much on Dapper
<coreyt> Actually if you install Beryl on Dapper you will break the distro
<coreyt> apt-get update will begin to fail
<coreyt> and it breaks upgrading to Edgy
<LaserJock> yeah
<coreyt> I found out the hard way :)
<LaserJock> that's why I stick to stuff that's in the repos
<LaserJock> or is very trusted
<LaserJock> and is why I tend to not like CNR or zeroinstall, etc.
<LaserJock> building an OS with thousands of independent software authors is quite difficult
<crimsun> for some of those tasks, screencasts are an excellent avenue of propagation
<LaserJock> yeah
<LaserJock> I'm hoping to see our screencast project take off
<LaserJock> I don't use a GUI enough to contribute, but it seems cool
<nixternal> coreyt: I don't see how people could cheat their way through the MBA courses. It isn't any different than any other Masters program
<nixternal> plus, a majority of our work is field based with individual one-on-one tests with the professor
<popey> LaserJock: I suspect there may be a call for console based screencasts at some point
* tonyyarusso would vote for that
<popey> would have to seriously think about that though, need to make sure the text is readable, so probably scale the font up quite high
<tonyyarusso> yeah
<LaserJock> popey: it'd probably be nice for a "How to rebuild from source" or "How to build an Ubuntu package"
<popey> yes, they're on the list to do Laser_away
* mdke huffs and puffs
<mdke> dsas: hiya
<dsas> hi mdke
<mdke> so for some reason the java stuff is less up to date than what we had for edgy :(
<mdke> that's weird, and disturbing because it makes you wonder what else is missing
<dsas> mdke: Weird, must have been fixed in the edgy branch and not trunk or something?
<mdke> yes. We need to update it, definitely
<mdke> if you fancy doing a patch... :)
<dsas> heh, sure.
* mdke 's todo list is gradually getting more enormous since his internet connection packed up
<dsas> being offline should mean you get things done more quickly. At least I do.
<mdke> yes, that's true of my real life todo list
<mdke> but that's pretty short anyhow :)
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: mdke * r3720 ubuntu/Makefile: fixing build for packagingguide
<mdke> Laser_away: ^^
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: mdke * r3721 /trunk/ (60 files in 34 dirs): beginning significant rearranging of Ubuntu directory for ease of translation
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: mdke * r3722 ubuntu/ (66 files in 28 dirs): creating C/ directories for each document, moving the xml into them (continuing the migration for ease of translation)
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: mdke * r3723 ubuntu/ (18 files in 10 dirs): moving omf files
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: mdke * r3724 debian/ (changelog rules): adjusting packaging for new directory changes
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: mdke * r3725 /trunk/ (3 files in 2 dirs): updates to website build things for new directory structure
<mdke> hiya ompaul
<dsas> mdke: In Feisty we have java1.6 and 1.5 available, most people are still using java1.5 though...Should I just include a note at the end saying "java 1.6 can be installed following the above instructions, but swapping the 1.5 for 1.6 ?
<mdke> dsas: which is preferred?
<dsas> mdke: As far as I'm aware most current development is done using 1.4 or 1.5, 1.6 is pretty new, but it is the way forward.
<mdke> yeah, a note sounds fine
<mdke> dsas: if you do a patch, make sure you create the diff on the xml file only, since I've just hacked around with the directory structure, it will be easier to apply
<dsas> mdke: sure.
<dsas> mdke: Is it worth outlining basic uses of the C compiler perhaps? I.e. "to compile a C program run gcc -o programname sourcecode.c"
<mdke> dsas: in programming.xml?
<dsas> mdke: Yeah
<mdke> best would be a link to a more comprehensive guide I think
<dsas> Ok, I was just thinking longtime C + linux programmers probably know, or at least know where to look. Whereas newcomers (e.g. first year uni CS students) might appreciate "how to compile and run a trivial program".
<mdke> dsas: we need to have a think about that programming section. I don't know how well it sits with the new advanced-topics section
<dsas> mdke: Ok, I can link to an intro to gcc or something for the moment. I was just thinking that there's lots of whitespace available. Though it may not be good to fill it really.
<mdke> dsas: maybe we can merge it with the advanced-topics section somehow.
<mdke> there is probably a fair amount of repetition there already
<dsas> mdke: Ah, I never saw that before.
<mdke> dsas: we just added it this week
<dsas> mdke: What are the plans for it?
<mdke> dsas: well, they are open
<mdke> dsas: what you see now :)
<dsas> I guess it would make sense for programming.xml to be "installing programming applications" and for advanced-topic to refer to that.
<mdke> right. The manuals for various things are linked to already from advanced-topic
<dsas> ah, didn't realise that ApplicationsProgramming actually did anything yet.
<dsas> "eGenix mxStack Manual - Manual for eGenix mxStack.", very descriptive.
<mdke> yeah, it's always been there.
<mdke> hah.
<mdke> to fix that you'll have to do a patch on the package
<dsas> I think that lots of people will see "writing your own programs", imagine some kind of tutorial, click it and getting a huge wall of meaningless, unsorted API references.
<mdke> dsas: do you think it will be possible to tidy it up?
<mdke> or maybe change the description?
<dsas> some of the things are huge edge cases, the chances that someone will purposefully go through help to find "Extending and Embedding the Python Interpreter (v2.5)" are really slim.
<dsas> mdke: Is the page auto generated?
<mdke> dsas: the second level page is, the advanced-topic page is ours of course
<mdke> the ApplicationsProgramming page is generated from the title and descriptions in the omf file for the relevant application
<dsas> it's hard to think of a better short name, that fits in with the advanced-topic style, something on the lines of "API documents, language references and programming tools help" isn't exactly intuitive.
<dsas> Of course it's hard to make advanced-topic be a programming tutorial, it'd be lengthy and probably out of scope.
<dsas> I've sent a patch for programming.xml in the meanwhile though :)
<mdke> I suppose we can move programming.xml to be a sub-page of advanced-topics, and move the links to programming into that
<mdke> it would probably need to be bulked up a bit, I guess
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal * r3726 kubuntu/ (29 files in 29 dirs): moving tbh docs
<dsas> ok, what kind of info should I use to bulk it up? Running with the "this is a basic use of gcc" idea I had earlier? extending that to java too?
<mdke> I don't really know, tbh. More of an introduction that can better explain the manuals that you can find in the packages
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal * r3727 kubuntu/ (17 files in 16 dirs): adding C directories
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal * r3728 kubuntu/C/: removing C
<dsas> "There is lots of documentation on programming available on your ubuntu system. You can see this by visiting ApplicationsProgramming, much more documentation can be installed by installing "-doc" packages
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal * r3729 kubuntu/ (48 files in 30 dirs): moving files into C subdirectories
<mdke> hmm, did I leave?
<mdke> crazy gaim
<mdke> dsas: there is something in internet.xml that needs updating for java too
<dsas> mdke: Ok, I'll take a look
<mdke> :)
<mdke> ok, i'll bbl
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: mdke * r3730 /trunk/ (4 files in 4 dirs): cleaning up
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal * r3731 /trunk/ (index.xml kubuntu/Makefile kubuntu/index.xml): fixed Makefile to build all, fixed linking
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal * r3732 /trunk/index.xml: oops
<glatzor> hi mdke. there was a reason skipping the German translation of the desktop guide in the latest edgy-updates release of ubuntu-docs?
<mdke> glatzor: yes, that was a number of fixes that have been waiting in the stable release update approval system for several months. We haven't yet imported any new translations
<mdke> nixternal: I don't understand your latest post to the -doc list. Did you read my reply to your earlier one about how pdfs won't make any different to broken links?
<mdke> s/different/difference
<mdke> glatzor: but in any case, it is still in -proposed, not even -updates yet
<glatzor> mdke: the long time frame is quite discouraging.
<LaserJock> mdke: thanks
<mdke> glatzor: I'm sorry about that, we're pretty busy. If you want to help with importing the translations, that would be fine.
<glatzor> mdke: the question is who will be reading it at all after the release of feisty :)
<mdke> true
<mdke> LaserJock: yw
<glatzor> mdke: how many working hours/days do you estimate for the import?
<mdke> glatzor: do you mean if you help, or if we do it?
<nixternal> mdke: i read it after I sent that
<mdke> nixternal: oh, ok. It was an hour and a half earlier, that's why I was confused
<mdke> glatzor: iit is quite a long process right now because all the xml validity errors need to be fixed, and adding each new translation to the packaging, and there are lots of documents to do that for. It used to take me several hours. Then you just have to go through the stable release update procedure, which probably takes another few weeks, according to previous experience.
<nixternal> ya mdke it just came across after I sent mine, for some reason I was hitting gmail
<glatzor> mdke: oh, sorry. I am quite busy with my personal development and translating projects
<glatzor> mdke: I cannot donate so much time. sorry
<mdke> glatzor: I hope that for the next release we can implement a system to make it easier
<mdke> after correcting errors with the xml validity for the first time, we can try and regenerate po files and upload them to Rosetta so that we only have to do that task once, then we can get updates more easily
<mdke> it's a real pain ATM
<glatzor> mdke: I already spent a lot of time on the translation and the review process. So I have to make a cut, since it doesn't seem to be worth further efforts.
<glatzor> mdke: sounds so
<mdke> yeah, I understand
<mdke> we can maybe just import the german translation, since you've spent so much time on it
<glatzor> mdke: that would be nice.
<glatzor> mdke: I have got some potatos on my cooker. So see you
<mdke> glatzor: :)
<mdke> buon appetito
<mdke> nixternal: can you send me a copy of replace-doctype-with.py pls?
<mdke> (by email)
<mdke> nixternal: oh no actually, it's in the repo :) by bad
<mdke> my bad <--
<nixternal> hehe
<mdke> glatzor: rosetta hasn't emailed me my po yet, I presume it's broken?
<LaserJock> seems like a lot of Rosetta breakage at the moment
<mdke> could be
#ubuntu-doc 2007-01-28
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: mdke * r3733 ubuntu/ (internet/C/internet.xml programming/C/programming.xml): Dean's patches
* mdke hellos
<poningru> quick question
<poningru> the help options during install seems to have changed a lot
<poningru> as in the options from f1 do not seem to work
<mdke> "during install"?
<poningru> yeah the splash screen comes up
<poningru> and there is a f1 help option
<mdke> ah. Don't know anything about that
<poningru> hmm do you know who I can bug about that?
<poningru> that needs to be updated not sure if thats -doc realm or some other fiefdom
<mdke> filing a bug is generally the usual way
<poningru> kk
<poningru> thanks
<poningru> against usplash? or ...?
<poningru> which package?
<mdke> you mean the options on boot, right? not usplash
<poningru> yeah
<poningru> I'll look through the packages try to find the right one
<mdke> not sure what package
<poningru> yeah thanks though for the help
<poningru> :)
<mdke> you can ask cjwatson or Mithrandir about that
<poningru> hmm will do if I fail to find the package
<crimsun> it's not usplash
<crimsun> did you press F6 first?
<poningru> crimsun: hmm?
<poningru> what do you mean?
<poningru> before pressing f1? or before inputting the boot options?
<poningru> obviously on the latter and not sure on the former
<crimsun> poningru: yes, before pressing F1
<poningru> hmm let me see
<poningru> nope same
<crimsun> where are you having problems entering boot params?
<poningru> crimsun: are you in -devel?
<poningru> see for example I dont want edgy to probe for usb
<poningru> in the f1 help menu it says just do 'live debian-installer/probe/usb=false'
<poningru> but ofcourse that does not work
<poningru> throwing errors like root= not specified etc.
<poningru> so I tried just debian-installer/probe/usb=false appended on to the end after all the other params
<poningru> nope still no go
<poningru> and I tried nousb and for whatever reason that does not work
<crimsun> yes, that would appear to be a bug
<crimsun> sorry, I'm in office hours right now, so I can't respond immediately
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: mdke * r3734 /trunk/ (debian/rules ubuntu/index.xml): fixing build error; minor tweaks to index.xml
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: mdke * r3735 debian/rules: another fix, grumph
<mdke> crimsun: you know if flashplugin-nonfree is broken in Dapper? it won't download the plugin for me
<mdke> crimsun: firefox seems to have downloaded it ok though
<crimsun> mdke: I suspect all versions prior to 9 final are awry
<crimsun> for those, I suppose you can hope for the new backport of feisty's f-n
<mdke> crimsun: hmm. Dapper has ii  flashplugin-no 7.0.63.3ubuntu Macromedia Flash Player plugin installer
<crimsun> mdke: there's very little benefit for us to troubleshoot that one; there are known vulnerabilities, and upstream doesn't support it.
<mdke> crimsun: *shrug*, I won't stay with dapper for long, but I know it's supposed to be supported for 3 years
<crimsun> mdke: I can't even download 7.0.6x from Adobe.
<mdke> crimsun: grr. doing a backport to -updates is out of the question I suppose?
<crimsun> I could look into a version for -updates that spits out a message regarding the version in backports, I suppose.
* mdke nods
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: mdke * r3736 ubuntu/ (8 files in 8 dirs): correcting addresses
<mdke> hiya jono
<jono> hey :)
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: mdke * r3737 ubuntu/ (3 files in 2 dirs): making a link for the server material in advanced-topics; minor tweak to title of printing.xml
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: mdke * r3738 ubuntu/ (Makefile index.xml): minor tweaks to include advanced-topics in preview website
#ubuntu-doc 2008-01-21
<astabeno> Is there something going on with wiki.ubuntu.com?
#ubuntu-doc 2008-01-22
<melodie> hi, bonjour, hello !  :)
#ubuntu-doc 2008-01-23
<rhpot1991_laptop> can anyone here move a wiki page to a different location?
#ubuntu-doc 2008-01-24
<CarlFK> how do I get from help.u.c to https://help.ubuntu.com/6.10/ubuntu/installation-guide/hppa/post-install.html  ?
<CarlFK> I go there from google, but am trying to find that section on 7.04 and .10 - but can't find a list of chapters
<CarlFK> https://help.ubuntu.com/6.10/ubuntu/installation-guide/hppa/preseed-contents.html  www.debian URL is 404
<nixternal_> CarlFK: I believe it was removed prior to 7.04, but I am not 100% positive on that
<nixternal_> checking svn branches now
<nixternal_> CarlFK: ya, looks like it was removed for Feisty, it isn't in svn branches after edgy
<CarlFK> "it" being the whole preseed discussion?
<nixternal_> "it" being >6.10/installation-guide
<nixternal_> don't know if it was included in the Ubuntu Help stuff or not
<nixternal_> or possibly the wiki somewhere
<nixternal_> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Installation
<nixternal_> ya, it was incorporated into the community documentation wiki
<CarlFK> ah
<CarlFK> thanks
<nixternal_> no problem...glad to know its there
<nixternal_> my dumb arse has been saying "I don't know" :)
<CarlFK> wow - it even links to pages I wote :)
<nixternal_> groovy, you are a superstar then! :)
<CarlFK> has this page been dropped? https://help.ubuntu.com/6.10/ubuntu/installation-guide/hppa/preseed-contents.html
<nixternal_> I couldn't tell you honestly
<nixternal_> you know what, that may be located somewhere under the developer wiki actually
<nixternal_> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/InstallCDCustomization/PreseedExamples
<nixternal_> I found that
<nixternal_> lunch time! back in a few
<CarlFK> see ya
<CarlFK> thanks for the searches
<dsas> CarlFK: I think cjwatson was the author of that stuff and folded it into the wiki (at least it was maintained out of doctream repo)
<CarlFK> sounds reasonable
#ubuntu-doc 2008-01-25
<Kr0ntab> heya folks...
<sommer> Kr0ntab: what's happening
<Kr0ntab> hey sommer ..
<Kr0ntab> not much...
<Kr0ntab> just writing a new thread... as the other was getting long...
<Kr0ntab> I am submitting a new patch...
<Kr0ntab> to distinguish input and output appropriately...
<Kr0ntab> using <userinput> and <computeroutput> tags...
<Kr0ntab> both enclosed in screen tags...
<Kr0ntab> it looks pretty good... and hope to get your opinion.
<sommer> Kr0ntab: cool, I saw your lastest emails in thread
<sommer> haven't had time to try out the userinput tag... thats a new one one me ;-)
<Kr0ntab> cool deal...
<sommer> when you mentioned the <computeroutput> before I didn't realize you meant to wrap them in <screen> tags
<Kr0ntab> I'll send it now... and when ya have time... check the diff to see if ya like..
<Kr0ntab> ah yeah...
<sommer> Kr0ntab: cool
<Kr0ntab> done...
<sommer> awesome, thanks man
<sommer> I think it's good to debate which tags to use as well... at least until we have a style guide that lets you know what to use
<Kr0ntab> So who is actually working on the style guide.  someone at canonical?  On eof the Doc-team admins?
<sommer> the docteam... I think how it's working at the moment anyway, is that Phil is editing the wiki page
<sommer> once it's of sufficient quality maybe it will be moved into docbook
<sommer> I'm actually not 100% sure about that thoguh
<Kr0ntab> ah, ok.  I saw a thread from nixternal when searching for it, so I wasn't sure.
<Kr0ntab> and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StyleGuide hasn't been touched in a while...
<sommer> this is the one from Phil's email: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/StyleGuide/DocbookConventions
<sommer> I guess that's going to be the "official" one
<Kr0ntab> oh cool deal...
<Kr0ntab> oooh fancy 3-d.  :-P
<sommer> yah those are cool
<Kr0ntab> Looks good so far.
<ubotu> New bug: #185867 in ubuntu-docs (main) "Neverball game object incorrect" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/185867
<ubotu> New bug: #185884 in ubuntu-docs (main) "Pasting commands section header" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/185884
<ubotu> New bug: #185892 in ubuntu-docs (main) "instructions how to paste commands incorrect" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/185892
<`6og> is there any netequite stuff in ubuntu i can point someone to? i thought there was a wiki page, but cant find it
<`6og> !netequite
<ubotu> Sorry, I don't know anything about netequite - try searching on http://ubotu.ubuntu-nl.org/factoids.cgi
<`6og> !lists
<ubotu> mail is another medium to communicate. Ubuntu mailinglists can be found at http://lists.ubuntu.com
<ubotu> New bug: #185899 in ubuntu-doc "please remove old packaging guide" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/185899
<nemilar> supp
<ubotu> New bug: #185919 in ubuntu-docs (main) "video card for graphics card" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/185919
<ubotu> New bug: #185962 in ubuntu-docs (main) ""The partition" is unspecified" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/185962
#ubuntu-doc 2008-01-26
<Kr0ntab> heya folks...
<freaknl> Hello, I would like to document the configuration of a computer for 802.1x authentication (with wpa-supplicant), because most of the information about using wpa-supplicant is geared towards wireless networks, and because information is missing (I think)
<freaknl> Can I start a new page on the help.ubuntu.com wiki?
<freaknl> Also, is there a wiki tag for making an info paragraph (with the icon in front of it) such as at https://help.ubuntu.com/7.10/user-guide/C/mouse-skills.html#mouse-conventions ?
<freaknl> Another thing, the link to the style guide is broken on: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiGuide/Style
<freaknl> New page: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Network802.1xAuthentication
<freaknl> Hope it helps someone
<freaknl> Could someone check that page for style?
#ubuntu-doc 2009-01-21
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, how do you intend to proceed with bug 243797
<Rocket2DMn> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-docs/+bug/243797
<Rocket2DMn> i dont think the directions in intrepid quite apply (or are even entirely correct)
<Rocket2DMn> i'm not seeing "CLAIMED, UNCLAIMED, ENABLED or DISABLED" on most of my network interfaces
#ubuntu-doc 2009-01-22
<m1ke> Hello
#ubuntu-doc 2009-01-23
<Traveler> Hello
<m1ke> anyone awake?
#ubuntu-doc 2009-01-25
<cpach> hey guys! just wanted to say thanks for providing a great guide to setting openldap up
#ubuntu-doc 2010-01-25
<dendle> hi all....having a funky time with my Ubuntu laptop.....all good now......whew
<mdke> fagan: you need &lt;
<fagan> mdke: I did &60; and it worked too
<mdke> fagan: fine if it works. The usual way is to use &lt; and &gt; for such signs
 * mdke -> work
<fagan> mdke: ping?
<mdke> fagan: (In case I'm not around at the moment, please provide a bit of information about what you want and I will respond when I get back)
<fagan> Im trying to make a sect but docbook wont recognise anything more than sect6
<fagan> I figured it out
<fagan> :_
<fagan> :)
<fagan> anyone know about the yelp indexing?
#ubuntu-doc 2010-01-28
<Guest67683> hii..
<Guest67683> i m new to ubuntu..
<Guest67683> i want to work for documentation
<Guest67683> please suggest me the right way
<syockit> err, cannot log in to ubuntu help wiki. Says some python error
<jpds> syockit: Try clearing your cookies for it.
<jpds> Works for me fine here.
<syockit> I've retried on a my rarely used Firefox, and also a Incognito Google Chrome. Still same problem :(
<syockit> __init__() takes exactly 2 arguments (3 given)
<nixternal> syockit: I just logged in to it just fine...is it working now for you?
<nixternal> i think they were supposed to do some updates on that server today or recently
<syockit> nixternal: nope, still that same python error
<nixternal> hrmm
<nixternal> this is help.ubuntu.com/community right?
<syockit> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/File%20Roller/ uh, yes
<nixternal> hrmm, just logged in fine with both firefox and chromium
<nixternal> have you tried a refresh and then a login?
<syockit> first it brings me to the OpenId login page. Then I proceed to log in, then after Launchpad's authentication completes, it returns to help.ubuntu.com . But then it errors
<nixternal> hrmm
<nixternal> are you using the default theme?
 * nixternal wonders if it is something with a theme possibly
<nixternal> nope, works with different themes as well
<syockit> I have (1) tried loggin in on my normal Chrome, which was already logged in to Launchpad (2) tried with Incognito mode, which basically starts from nothing (3) used Firefox, which I rarely use, and was not logged in Launchpad
 * nixternal tries konqueror
<nixternal> nope, that worked as well
<syockit> do you also log in through Launchpad OpenID?
#ubuntu-doc 2010-01-29
<Traveler1> hello
<Traveler1> i am from france
#ubuntu-doc 2010-01-30
<Roud-rik> boa noite
<amgalitz> Pardon my ignorance, this is first use of this system. I successfully implemented DSA key authentication from a windows nxclient to an Ubuntu Karmic freenx server but on my Karmic installation the location of the key generated by freenx was different from the Ubuntu documentation page.
<amgalitz> after running the command   sudo dpkg-reconfigure freenx-server, the private key appreared at /var/lib/nxserver/home/.ssh/client.id_dsa.key instead of the indicated /var/lib/nxserver/home/custom_keys/. Also, using a non-standard ssh port, this way of secure copying worked: scp -P nnnn user@freenx-server:~/client.id_dsa.key ~/. Also the key copied FROM SERVER to client with this:  sudo scp -P [nnnn=client-port] ~/client.id_dsa.key  
#ubuntu-doc 2010-01-31
<gmendoza> folks... I've been searching for a little while here... but where are the style definitions for the xml tags used by yelp.  For example, it was decided a while back that <userinput> tags would be bolded.  This is the case in the browser builds, but not in the reading of xml files by yelp.
<gmendoza> I was going to submit a bug report and propose a patch but the style sheets/definitions are eluding me.
<gmendoza> working on the lucid docs branch.
<shaunm> gmendoza: gnome-doc-utils, with some overrides in the yelp package itself
<alkisg> Are we allowed to post localized content in the Ubuntu wiki? We are searching about where to post ~100 pages concerning Ubuntu installation/adaptation to Greek schools.
<mdke> alkisg: I would suggest a greek Ubuntu website
<mdke> (http://ubuntu-gr.org/)
<gmendoza> shaunm, hmm okay... I did a list of all files included in the gnome-doc-utils package, grepped through for "userinput", found only a couple files not appearing to have any effect.  Any chance you or anyone else might know exactly where these defs are?
<alkisg> mdke: Thank you. We have a loco team and a website, but the maintainers suggested to look elsewhere
<gmendoza> /usr/share/xml/gnome/xslt/docbook/html/db2html-inline.xsl seems to have the structure, but I just don't know if this is really being referenced by yelp when looking interpreting font style.
<alkisg> mdke: as administration is a little hard, no backups are taken, and the hardware is not theirs, so they told me to ask if we could move all the wiki.ubuntu-gr.org to wiki.ubuntu.com..
<mdke> alkisg: probably the greek team's wiki is the appropriate place. We don't encourage the use of localised content on the international wiki, preferring to use local team's websites
<alkisg> mdke: Thank you. Unfortunately the greek ubuntu wiki is not an option, because it isn't maintained and is about to be closed. We don't want to risk loosing many months of work because noone took a backup.
<mdke> alkisg: if hosting is a problem then that should probably be taken up with the provider - Canonical offers hosting for approved local teams
<alkisg> The main problem is administration
<alkisg> The person who took care of the wiki doesn't have time to update / maintain it anymore
<mdke> isn't there a team, rather than a single person?
<alkisg> There is a team, but it's not well organized
<mdke> shame
<alkisg> The hardware is in some university, if the professor there decided to close it down, we'll just loose all of our work.
<mdke> as I say, Canonical offers hosting for approved local teams
<mdke> there is also the ubuntu-eu team which does the same
<alkisg> I think ubuntu-gr.org was hosted in the european cluster previously, and they left because of lack of support
<alkisg> Maintaing lots of web software isn't easy for the loco teams...
<mdke> for some I guess that is true. That's why Canonical offers their support
<alkisg> I think they tried that as well
<alkisg> I don't know if things have improved
<alkisg> Does canonical hosting also include a wiki?
<alkisg> Maybe we could arrange to transfer the wiki to the canonical servers?
<mdke> I don't know all the details, but it certainly does for many teams
<mdke> have a look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoHosting
<alkisg> I talked to the person in charge of the wiki some hours ago, and I told him about that option, but as I understand he told me that they tried that and left because of lack of support
<mdke> anyway, there is no *prohibition* on non-English content in either the documentation wiki or the team wiki, but it's a bad option and we don't encourage it
<alkisg> So I guess I'm running out of options here, about where to put my ubuntu - related content... :-/
<alkisg> I guess I'll have to use http://el.wikibooks.org
<mdke> if I were you, I'd try to work with the ubuntu-gr team to see if the situation can be improved, or use your own site if the material has a specific purpose. But if you're absolutely desperate, you could use help.u.c/community as a temporary measure
<alkisg> It's an official manual for installing Ubuntu to greek schools
<alkisg> All Ubuntu-using schools in Greece will use it
<alkisg> I do have my own servers & domains and everything - I'm just looking to put it under an official namespace...
<alkisg> So I wouldn't want a temporary solution...
<mdke> you might try and use a subdomain of ubuntu-gr.org
<alkisg> I will have to maintain a moinmoin - I wouldn't want to do that long term
<alkisg> What's the proper way to contact Canonical about its hosting options? (through the loco team, of course...)
<mdke> I see. Well my advice is the same - try to encourage the greek team to sort their hosting out, or if you're desperate use the English language documentation wiki. But it's a shame to plant it in the middle of a lot of English material
<alkisg> Maybe things have improved, and they include a wiki with the hosting (I doubt it, though :()
<mdke> alkisg: it's set out on the LoCoHosting page
<alkisg> Thank you mdke, you helped a lot :)
<mdke> alkisg: wiki software is definitely included, most local teams have it
<alkisg> The french team uses docuwiki
<alkisg> It doesn't use moinmoin
<mdke> they are not hosted by Canonical
<mdke> they host themselves in the ubuntu-eu team
<alkisg> And I think they left because the had problems with the canonical hosting
<mdke> that's not entirely accurate. But anyway, they have more control over their own hosting
<alkisg> Anyway, I'll look at this option at more depth. Thank you for your time and your thoughts :)
<mdke> because they have their own servers
<mdke> no problem, good luck
<shaunm> gmendoza: db2html-inline.xsl creates something like <span class="userinput">.  the css for that is in db2html-css.xsl
<gmendoza> shaunm, yeah thanks... I actually just figured it out... hehe
<gmendoza> it was driving me crazy... but then clicked...
<gmendoza> line 1121 of db2html-inline.xsl changed to    <xsl:with-param name="bold" select="true()"/>  does the trick.
<shaunm> oh, yeah, that works as well
<gmendoza> yeah thanks a bunch for helping...
<gmendoza> so I guess I'll file a bug report against that package and submit a patch.
<shaunm> in launchpad?
<gmendoza> eh, I guess maybe not... this is not a package maintained by doc team, huh.
<gmendoza> I guess I'll need to ask what would be the appropriate step would be.
<gmendoza> I can ask mdke unless you have a suggestion...
<gmendoza> Thanks agai, I'll shoot off an email.
#ubuntu-doc 2011-01-24
<cache_surplus> hello, i was wondering, if i have a launchpad account, am i able to modify the docs that may be outdated or need clean up?
<cjohnston> cache_surplus: are you talking about help.ubuntu.com or something else?
<cache_surplus> ubuntu help
<cjohnston> you would have to check out the package and edit them that way
<cache_surplus> actually any and all documentation
<cjohnston> the wiki you can edit from the wiki... everything else, afaik, has to be edited in the source package
<cache_surplus> on ubuntu.com you do a search, and then results pop up. i'd like to be able to edit those
<cache_surplus> ic
<cache_surplus> so like cvs the package, modify then check back in
<cache_surplus> correct
<cjohnston> ya.. bzr
<cache_surplus> or does someone review it first prior to check in
<cjohnston> and then someone would review and merge it back in
<cache_surplus> bzr?
<cjohnston> you would do a merge proposal
<cache_surplus> ic
<cjohnston> that is the cvs used
<cache_surplus> k
<cache_surplus> ic
<cache_surplus> lol
<cache_surplus> i was wondering, usually 3 letters is a cvs type prog
<cjohnston> ya.. its actually bazaar, but the commands are bzr
<cache_surplus> got it
<cache_surplus> doubt it was buzzer lol
<cjohnston> if you look at the links in the topic, that would help you alot
<cjohnston> i dont actually work with the docs team.. i just happened to have joined the other day and never left
<cjohnston> lol
<cache_surplus> up above? ya im at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam
<cache_surplus> ic
<cache_surplus> nothing wrong with that
<cjohnston> that one, and looks like the get involved link is a good omne tooo
<cache_surplus> yah i just noticed somethings are a little old info wise, and after a year or so of noticing these things i figured i could do something about it, when i ran across them
<cjohnston> yup.. and you can also file bugs against stuff too
<cache_surplus> yah, i found only one last year, maybe two
<cache_surplus> the gnome task bar and windows are moving rather than staying put.. such as the clock/calendar and stock ticker
<cache_surplus> nothing major, but annoying
<cache_surplus> also wicd
<cache_surplus> i also found the best way to stop/start NetworkManager for wireless issues...
<cache_surplus> anyfoo, little things, that make life simplier
<cache_surplus> where can i find more info about the @SIG@  macro for the wiki in general all the macros or special wiki chars. thanks links?
<tsimpson> cache_surplus: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpOnEditing
<cache_surplus> tsimpson: yep im at that page now
<cache_surplus> tanks
<tsimpson> it all standard moinmoin stuff afik
<cache_surplus> thanks, yah moin got it
<cache_surplus> what does one mean when they say, smoke test, or smoke testing? is that a hardware thing?
<jjesse> runnig the server/machine to make sure it works
<cache_surplus> k
#ubuntu-doc 2011-01-26
<czajkowski> Announcing the ODFPlugfest UK http://www.odfplugfest.co.uk/ all communities and developers are welcome to take part, we have space for talks and it is a freeevent to take part in
#ubuntu-doc 2011-01-27
<topdownjimmy> Is this the channel for the community documentation, or the official documentation?
#ubuntu-doc 2011-01-28
<cjohnston> topdownjimmy: either really.
#ubuntu-doc 2012-01-23
<shaunm> mdke: http://blogs.gnome.org/shaunm/2012/01/22/too-much-documentation/
<shaunm> mdke: jbicha mentioned you ran into the "Argument list too long" problem with yelp.m4 in ubuntu-docs
<shaunm> happens when you have a lot of translations of a lot of page files
<shaunm> there's a fix in the just-released yelp-tools 3.3.2
#ubuntu-doc 2012-01-24
<benonsoftware> Hello everyone
<benonsoftware> I need some help fixing a typo bug, I have pulled the branch to my machine then fixed it, what do I do next?
<jbicha> benonsoftware: thanks for helping out with docs!
<benonsoftware> jbicha: I just saw the typo on the list and thought I would help. But I need help uploading it to LP
<jbicha> well you should be able to do bzr commit and then bzr push lp:~benny/ubuntu-docs/fix-for-lp921227
<jbicha> or something like that
<benonsoftware> jbicha: Thank you very much
<benonsoftware> and now do I just propose for merging?
<jbicha> navigate to https://code.launchpad.net/~benny/ubuntu-docs/fix-for-lp921227 and click the propose for merging button
<benonsoftware> Thanks
<benonsoftware> Done
<jbicha> benonsoftware: next time wait until it's actually merged into the main branch before setting it to fix committed
<jbicha> it's fine now though, thanks very much for your contribution!
<benonsoftware> Ok, sorry
#ubuntu-doc 2012-01-25
<needhelp1> is there a way i can see all pages ive edited?
#ubuntu-doc 2014-01-20
<dsmythies> wiki.ubuntu.com pages will sometimes automatically make a word into a link. There is a way to force it not to, but I can not recall how. Anybody know?
<belkinsa> Use !?
<belkinsa> !
<belkinsa> Er, ! in front of the word.
<dsmythies> belkinsa: Thanks very much.
<belkinsa> Not a problem.
<pleia2> or backticks, like Blah``Foo
<belkinsa> I think the backticks works better
<pleia2> generally does for me
<belkinsa> !LoCo didn't work for me on my wiki page
<ubot2> belkinsa: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :)
<belkinsa> Ignore the bot's reply
<dsmythies> pleia2: Thanks for the alternate suggestion.
<godbyk> dsmythies: Though I'd write DeskTop as Desktop anyway.
<dsmythies> godbyk: O.K.
<godbyk> dsmythies: What time zone are you in? US/Pacific?
<dsmythies> godbyk: Yes. I think 2 hours behind you.
<godbyk> dsmythies: Yeah, I'm US/Central.
<dsmythies> hmmm... now the ! that belkinsa taught me becomes visible, so had to delete it. Grrrr, I hate the automatic link thingy.
<godbyk> I do, too. Who uses WikiWords these days?
<godbyk> They were just a quick hack to begin with.
<pleia2> heh, yeah, I have to escape them more often than they are useful
<belkinsa> dsmythies, does '' work?
<belkinsa> ``*
<dsmythies> belkinsa: I guess that change that godbyk recommended changed the word from one that needed to be forced to not be a link to one that did not need to be forced to not be a link. So then the ! became visible. To answer your actual question, I didn't try the pleia2 method.
<belkinsa> Yeah, but it only works for things that can be changed that way.  Not like LoCo.
<dsmythies> belkinsa: Is it a Capital letter somewhere inside the word that makes the wiki decide it should be a link?
<belkinsa> Yes.
<dsmythies> Oh.
<belkinsa> JustLikeThis.  It's a wiki word format that it uses.
<dsmythies> I'm not familiar with  wiki word format.
<belkinsa> I'm not, but I learned it from working on new pages for the Ubuntu Women wiki.
<belkinsa> Okay, the `` and ! doesn't work.  I tired on LoCo on my wiki page and both didn't fix the problem.
<dsmythies> belkinsa: the ! did fix the issue for me, when I was still using DeskTop as the word.
<belkinsa> I will try again.
<belkinsa> Yeah, it fixes it when you save not preview mode.
<dsmythies> I thought I did preview it, but perhaps not.
<belkinsa> `` doesn't fix it though after saving, ! does fix it.
<belkinsa> slickymaster, ping.
<dsmythies> belkinsa: For me. Test results: ! with Preview worked fine. `` with preview did not. I didn't try save, because it was just a test edit.
<belkinsa> Weird.
 * belkinsa shrugs
 * dsmythies shrugs also.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, This page has several examples of links, using CapWords also !CapWords and several other link methods: http://moinmo.in/HelpOnLinking   .. then on this one, Avoid or Limit Auto Links: http://wiki.apache.org/solr/HelpOnMoinWikiSyntax#Hyperlinks
<dsmythies> KI7MT: Thanks. Aghhhh..... Now I understand the pleia2 method, it's Desk``Top not ``DeskTop (which previews fine). I better save the links somewhere that I will remember.
<belkinsa> Thank you, KI7MT.
<KI7MT> dsmythies, Maybe create a Wiki page with both pages combined as a how-too / quick ref :)
<belkinsa> So, LoCo, will be Lo``Co in that method?
<dsmythies> yes.
<belkinsa> I was thinking about doing that but I think the ref page is made and might just be linked to some other page where people can see it.
#ubuntu-doc 2014-01-21
<belkinsa> How to make headers for wiki pages?  Do you just create a page with the header and on the other pages do the include command?
<dsmythies> belkinsa: Do you mean like this page, which gets included in many others: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/MenuBar
<belkinsa> Yes, like that.
<dsmythies> belkinsa: Then yes.
<belkinsa> So the second method is how it's done?
<dsmythies> belkinsa: I was also thinking that if we find we have little segments of pages that we are repeating, we could use this same method so as to have only one "master".
<belkinsa> That sounds like a good idea.
<dsmythies> Not sure what you are asking.
<belkinsa> I'm working on wiki pages for my team that I created a few days ago: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-scientists and I'm planning to make a menu header just like every other team.
<belkinsa> That's why I'm asking on how do it
<dsmythies> belkinsa: By far, I am not very wiki knowledable, but wouldn't you make a new page "MenuBar" for your series of pages, perhaps borrow content from the doc one, and go from there?
<dsmythies> belkinsa: I am suggesting to use the doc one as a sort of "how to" (formatting and such) for your new one.
<belkinsa> That might be better.  I shall do that.
<jcdrake> Hi..I have a license query regarding packages.. is this the right place to ask?
#ubuntu-doc 2014-01-22
<dsmythies> We have brief single getting started pages for Ubuntu Desktop and Ubuntu Serverguide. Is there anything similar for Xubuntu? If yes, please give a link.
<pleia2> dsmythies: there is not, closest thing we have is http://xubuntu.org/contribute/support_documentation/
<dsmythies> pleia2: Thanks. Ya, I did see that page while looking around. My challenge is the Repository page, where I am basically deleting most of it, but then that leaves xubuntu without BZR setup instructions.
 * pleia2 nods
<pleia2> we're very similar to server now since we use docbook
<dsmythies> leaving the stuff on repositiry is redundent  for desktop and serverguide. Hmmm... what to do.
<dsmythies> I'll come back to it, busy killing most of task page at the moment.
<godbyk> dsmythies: I wonder if those tasks were ever completed. ;-)
<dsmythies> godbyk: I don't know. That list was very old.
<godbyk> dsmythies: Yeah, it was ancient.
<dsmythies> godbyk: I'm not trying to make the pages perfect and such. My objective is really to make them less wrong. Erroring on the side of deleting more then less.
<godbyk> dsmythies: I'm happy with all the work you've been doing on the wiki so far and am in complete agreement.
<godbyk> There's a ton of cruft on the docs team wiki and I'm glad to see it's getting cleaned up.
<dsmythies> godbyk: Thanks for that. I'll ask the list to review soon, via reply to KI&MT's e-mail.
<dsmythies> pleia2: Follow up from yesterday, where I got over zealous deleting stuff from the Repository page.
<dsmythies> pleia2: I would like to take sections 3, 4, and 5 out of the Desktop getting started page and move it to the Repository page.
<dsmythies> pleia2: With some very minimal changes that content would then apply to all 3 of Desktop, Xubuntu, and Serverguide. Of course, a link note would be left on the Desktop getting started page.
<dsmythies> pleia2: This would solve both the issue of redundant content and that the Repository page really needs BZR setup stuff.
<dsmythies> pleia2: A possible alternative is to make that content an include file and just include it in two spots, the desktop getting started page and the Repository page. Then there would only be one "master".
<dsmythies> pleia2: Thoughts or opinions?
<dsmythies> pleia2: (I realize you might not see this for awhile.)
<godbyk> dsmythies: I like the include option best. I think new contributors would find it easier to read all the getting started instructions on a single page instead of having to click to another page then return.
<dsmythies> godbyk: I'll try the include way then. I'll only mess around with the Repository page for now, since it was a mess anyhow. Once we are happy and in agreement, if we get that far, we'll edit the Desktop getting started page to use the new include file.
<godbyk> dsmythies: Sounds like a plan.
<ruliezz> hi everyone
<belkinsa> Hello.  ruliezz here is a system admin and he wants to work on the Sever Guide, who can he speak to to get started?
<ruliezz> Yep, im in my daily work a Linux sysadmin
<belkinsa> ruliezz, try the list also.  https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-doc
<belkinsa> Like I said introduce yourself and explain what you want to with the Sever Guide and someone will respond there (on the mailing-list).
<ruliezz> smart idea
<belkinsa> Generally that is the idea: join team on Launchpad, join the list, introduce yourself on the list, and join the channel to introduce yourself and get into the discussion if there is one going.  Most of the time, people lurk around and only will speak up when they need top.
<belkinsa> Er, list = mailing-list.
<ruliezz> do you have spam?
<ruliezz> :P
<belkinsa> No, I don't think this is spamming.
<belkinsa> It's more like reminding.
<belkinsa> ;)
<godbyk> I think dsmythies has largely been responsible for the server guide of late, so he'd be the best person to talk to.
<ruliezz> haha
<godbyk> (At least, I leave all the fun server guide bugs for him to deal with. :))
<ruliezz> haha :P
<godbyk> I'll be back in a bit. I'm going to finish airing up my car tires.
<ruliezz> Im going to bed
<ruliezz> ;)
<ruliezz> ist 00:00 in holland ;)
<ruliezz> next day i need to work agian ;)
<ruliezz> talk to you later
<belkinsa> Night
<ruliezz> night ;)
<dsmythies> Oh darn, I missed ruliezz. Someone that wants to help with serverguide, Yippie.
<belkinsa> dsmythies, he sent an e-mail to the mailing-list.
<dsmythies> belkinsa: Oh. Yes, I see it.
<dsmythies> godbyk: Have a look.
<dsmythies> godbyk: at the repository page and the BzrCommon included file.
<dsmythies> godbyk: I might add "Additional information" to BzrCommon.
<dsmythies> godbyk: I might also delete "Advanced" and "Updating a checkout"
<dsmythies> godbyk: I am hoping that what I had to add to BzrCommon doesn't confuse Desktop getting started too much, otherwise it defeats the purpose.
<godbyk> Yeah, I think someone tried the shared repository approach and ran into problems.
<godbyk> I've never tried it.
<dsmythies> godbyk: Me neither.
<godbyk> Here's the getting started instructions we use for the Ubuntu Manual Project: http://ubuntu-manual.org/getinvolved/authors
<godbyk> You're welcome to steal anything from there that looks useful.
<godbyk> I'd probably call the directory 'ubuntu-docs' instead of 'ubuntu_bzr'.. Sounds less generic.
<godbyk> And you could simplify things by having them always specify the branch name (i.e., lp:ubuntu-docs/trusty instead of lp:ubuntu-docs).
<godbyk> The downside is that we'd have to update the instructions each cycle.
<dsmythies> godbyk: Good point (ubuntu-bzr). I had copied that from rev 18, but yes it's not the best name. However, neither is "ubuntu-docs" for a generic example.
<dsmythies> godbyk: re: downside: Exaclty, that is why I did it that way. See also Desktop getting started page, where is doesn't even say how to branch previous stuff.
#ubuntu-doc 2014-01-23
<godbyk> My current organization is that I have ~/bzr/ubuntu-docs/{saucy,trusty} and ~/bzr/serverguide/{saucy,trusty}, etc.
<godbyk> I try to keep the directory name the same as the repository name.
<godbyk> But that's just so I can figure out where I'm at ('cause I'm often lost). :)
<dsmythies> godbyk: Sounds as though you agree with delete of "Advanced". Do you have an opinion on "Updating a check-out"? I have never used "bzr update". I only use "bzr pull".
<godbyk> dsmythies: I always use bzr pull, too.
<godbyk> Not sure what update does..
 * godbyk reads the man page
<godbyk> Okay, I just finished reading 'bzr help update' and 'bzr help pull' and I don't really know what the difference is.
<dsmythies> godbyk: Me neither.
<dsmythies> pleia2: Does xubuntu doc have a task list? I couldn't find one. Please refer to (where I currently have nothing for xubuntu):
<dsmythies> pleia2: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/Tasks
<pleia2> dsmythies: all we do is create a blueprint each cycle which has tasks: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/xubuntu-t-docs
<dsmythies> pleia2: does the -t- part mean trusty? (it looks like yes) i.e. if it were to be linked, would it need to be updated each cycle?
<pleia2> dsmythies: yes
<dsmythies> pleia2: your call. Do you want it linked on the task page or no?
<pleia2> dsmythies: I don't think so, but I'll follow up with our docs lead to see what he thinks
<dsmythies> pleias2: Do you have any input on what I am doing with the repository page? (Note: my notes to you early today may have scrolled off your screen.)
<dsmythies> pleia2: And godbyk perferred the include file option.
<pleia2> dsmythies: I saw, but haven't had a chance to take a closer look, hope to have some time this evening (wrapping up work in a half hour or so)
<dsmythies> pleia2: O.K. thanks. Sorry to have asked again.
<pleia2> dsmythies: no worries, thanks for the reminder :)
<dsmythies> pleia2: To help all of us, I think I'll temporarily add "begin included file" and "end included file" notes. I'll also go ahead and change the Desktop page, as a test, and we can revert if we do not like it.
<pleia2> dsmythies: +1 to including solution, seems most reasonable :) nice work on these pages!
<dsmythies> pleia2: Thanks very much for having a look. Yes, the thinking is that maybe we can use includes to get around having to edit the same thing multiple times.
<pleia2> yeah, includes are great
<dsmythies> pleia2: In this case the cost was just a lillte bit of non desktop info getting into its page.
<ruliezz> dsmythies: ping
<dsmythies> ruliezz: Yes, I am here.
<ruliezz> Lets start a private chat
<dsmythies> ruliezz: I am somewhat IRC challenged. I do not know how to do private chats.
<belkinsa> dsmythies, what do you use as a client?
<dsmythies> irssi
<ruliezz> Pidgin ;)
<ruliezz> I have start a private chat now
<belkinsa> Irssi as in the ptablet app?
<ruliezz> dsmythies:  do you see it now?
<belkinsa> You can always use /msg ruliezz text or whatever the command is
<ruliezz> indead
<dsmythies> belkinsa: I run irssi on a server. no GUI. I ssh to that server from a windows computer.
<belkinsa> Ah.  I see.
<dsmythies> ruliezz: I don't see anything. Am I supposed to?
<ruliezz> dsmythies: 'from a windows computer' != Ubuntu == 'ERROR, Please reinstall your pc with Linux Ubuntu
<dsmythies> ruliezz: lol
<ruliezz> Uhmm use pidgin :)
<ruliezz> is works on Linux and Windows too
<ruliezz> Maybe it would be a nice idea to make a hangout about Nagios
<ruliezz> I will do it but my english is more dutch english then correct English :)
 * dsmythies did manage to find the private chat
<ruliezz> :)
<ruliezz> sleep well everyone!
<ruliezz> talk to you tomorrow or othertime ;)
<dsmythies> O.K. bye
<ruliezz> ;)
#ubuntu-doc 2014-01-25
<belkinsa> knome, ping
<knome> belkinsa, pong
#ubuntu-doc 2015-01-25
<junglejoe78> :)Hi. Looking for OpenLDAP doc?
<belkinsa> junglejoe78, have you checked the Community Help wiki?
<belkinsa> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/CommunityHelpWiki
<belkinsa> Here: https://help.ubuntu.com/search.html?cof=FORID%3A9&cx=003883529982892832976%3Ae2vwumte3fq&ie=UTF-8&q=OpenLDAP&sa=Search
#ubuntu-doc 2016-01-26
<Kireji> hi all.  I'd like to volunteer.  who do I talk to?
<pmatulis> Kireji: welcome
<pmatulis> Kireji: interested in desktop or server documentation?
<pmatulis> Kireji: start here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation
#ubuntu-doc 2016-01-28
<knome> anybody against me adding slickymaster to the EditorGroup?
<knome> no? good.
<knome> :P
<slickymaster> thanks knome
#ubuntu-doc 2016-01-29
<flurin-arner> Hi guys,
<flurin-arner> I have a quick question regarding an UbuntuManPage, namely https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ManageDiscImages
<flurin-arner> I looked up the site for mounting an .mdf file, but got into errors while using the command suggested on the page.
<flurin-arner> I wanted to edit the page with the "correct" command (that at least worked for me)
<flurin-arner> with the command given on the manpage "sudo mount -o loop=/dev/loop0 /path/to/example.iso /media/example", I'd get an error "stolen loop=/dev/loop0", so I replaced it with "sudo mount -o loop /path/to/example.mdf /media/example" and all went well.
<flurin-arner> Btw, it also should be .mdf, not .iso in the example
<flurin-arner> I just wanted to let you know, as I couldn't edit the ManPage on my own..
<pmatulis> flurin-arner: the wiki is temporarily in a locked-down state
<flurin-arner> ok, so this means nobody may edit anything?
<flurin-arner> It'll have to wait then.. I'll do it when it gets unlocked =)
<flurin-arner> Do we know when it won't be locked-down any more, and why it's so?
<pmatulis> flurin-arner: you can send a note to the ubuntu-doc mailing list. yes, there is a small group/team that can edit. i forget the name
<pmatulis> flurin-arner: it's locked down due to a rash of vandalism that occurred in December
<flurin-arner> oh... not nice to hear..
<flurin-arner> Well, thanks for the information ;-)
<flurin-arner> Cya
#ubuntu-doc 2016-01-31
<jarnos> Can someone make page https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Lubuntu/Documentation/RemoveOldKernels mutable so that I can update it?
<jarnos> Besides, the page has barely anything Lubuntu specific, so maybe there is a better location for it.
<pmatulis> jarnos: the wiki is in lock-down, only a special group of people can edit at this time
<jarnos> pmatulis, special?
<knome> editors and admins.
<jarnos> Then please fix it.
<knome> if you send us the new markup via a bug report or email to the ubuntu-doc mailing list, i can do that
#ubuntu-doc 2017-01-28
<melodie> hello
<melodie> I would want to deactivate at-spi2* in Ubuntu as I don't use it and it eats some resource. is there  something similar that can be done in Ubuntu, that would be anywhere in the doc ? https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=189975
<melodie> how would someone do that in an Ubuntu box?
