#ubuntu-mobile 2007-12-10
<dholbach> good morning
<guardian> morning
<lool> Morning
<lool> StevenK: As your might have noticed, tinymail now needs to be built with libxul-embedding instead of -1.9
<lool> StevenK: (With suitable bump in xulrunner-dev build-dep)
<lool> StevenK: Also, I confirm you can drop -fPIC from CFLAGS now
<StevenK> lool: Huzzah!
<TeTeT> does anyone know if standard Ubuntu Desktop version does run on the Menlow with Poulsbo graphics out of the box?
<InSearchOf> agoliveira, You around?
<agoliveira> InSearchOf: Yes. What's up?
<InSearchOf> is there anyway I can talk to you outside of IRC?
<agoliveira> InSearchOf: is ICQ or Gtalk ok? I can give you my contact.
<agoliveira> or email...
<InSearchOf> 477584655
<InSearchOf> ICQ
<agoliveira> InSearchOf: Hold on...
<agoliveira> InSearchOf: Added, waiting for your authorization
<InSearchOf> done
<agoliveira> InSearchOf: Call me if you need but bare in mind that I'm extrely busy this week as my vacations start saturday.
<InSearchOf> ahhh...
<InSearchOf> dholbach, you around?
<dholbach> InSearchOf: yes
<InSearchOf> is there anyway I can talk to you outside of IRC
<InSearchOf> if you would rather talk in here that is fine
<dholbach> InSearchOf: what can I help you with?
<InSearchOf> I'm from pdaXrom... We run an OS made primarily for Sharp Zaurus, X11 based OS
<InSearchOf> We were looking at making a change in our roadmap and someone from the team brought up UME
<InSearchOf> and I'm seeing would would need to be done to combined our efforts and get the arm platform supported under UME
<dholbach> InSearchOf: I'm not sure I'm the right person to talk to
<dholbach> Mithrandir and davidm: can you reply to this? ^
<InSearchOf> and when I say what would need to be done.... I mean I dont want to announce to the community that we are merging unless I get someones good graces to do so
<agoliveira> dholbach: This is not actually a technical issue but community, that's why I asked him to talk to you.
<dholbach> agoliveira: I can't setup arm buildds - that's an effort somebody in the mobile team should be driving
<InSearchOf> well my team would handle the arm builds
<InSearchOf> brb
<agoliveira> dholbach: Ok, it's been some crossed lines here :) We can handle the tech problems, of course, I just asked him to join in the talk because he wants to know what's the currect aproach to start a comunnity project related to Ubuntu. He wants to make this "official" if there is such a thing.
<dholbach> agoliveira: maybe it's a good idea to present this to the technical board as a community effort and go from there?
<agoliveira> dholbach: That's what he wanted to know, how to proceed :) I'll talk to David first and go over from there, thanks.
<dholbach> agoliveira: great
<davidm> dholbach, agoliveira I'll grab this, just back from getting a flat tire fixed.
<davidm> InSearchOf, at the moment we are focused on the Intel MID chipset at least until our initial release.
<dholbach> davidm: I have deep sympathies with you :-/
<davidm> dholbach, on which the tire or the initial release? ;-)
<dholbach> davidm: both... :)
<dholbach> davidm: http://daniel.holba.ch/greece/14-Patras/005-IMG_4644.JPG - that's what happened during my holidays :)
<davidm> no fun, last night the coldest night of the year, I walk out to the flat, and an urgent task from my wife to get accomplished with a tight deadline.... No fun at all
<InSearchOf> davidm, so merging projects isnt an option? or not yet since the primary focus is on the MID chipset
<davidm> At the moment the mobile team is focused on getting the first release out the door, and that is on the Intel MID for the moment, but most all of our work is public so you can work with it if you want to.
<davidm> But for the moment I have a small team and I have to keep my eye on MID for the moment.
<InSearchOf> well currently our dev team can focus on the hardware and core development... it would be the gui components that would merge
<guardian> i have a quick question
<guardian> should i stick with my current image (gutsy) or should i change the repos ?
<agoliveira> InSearchOf: My sugestion would be that you get a working kernel and create an arm-based crosscompilation enviroment (maybe something based on Maemo's sandbox?) and see what happens.
<InSearchOf> alright.. well I mean our current crosscomplitation env. works...  will it have to be Maemo?
<agoliveira> InSearchOf: Not at all, I just suggested as something to look at as our base GUI is hildon that came from Maemo.
<InSearchOf> and the reason I'm asking so many questions is because I put our development on hold... 
<InSearchOf> waiting for an answer back... 
<agoliveira> InSearchOf: we will try to help but, as I said, you got us in a very bad time as we are all entering on vacations in 2 weeks and myslef in 1 so we are very busy right now.
<InSearchOf> agoliveira, well... I will just keep things on hold. which isnt a problem... I will look into how we would approach the getting things to work.
<agoliveira> InSearchOf: Your idea will be proposed to the technical board and I don't see w areason to not be aproved but that will have to wait until January unfortunately.
<InSearchOf> agoliveira, that is 100% fine. We aren't looking to move fast... but communication was what I was looking for and I got it.
<agoliveira> InSearchOf: Whatever we can do, just come in and ask. We will try to help, that's for sure.
<wasabi> So curiously, what makes this inappropiate for the N810?
<wasabi> Just size, aka nonwillingness to strip out stuff like perl, etc?
<wasabi> And/or lack of packages for the binary crap in Maemo?
<mjg59`> And also the hassle of getting kernel support into our tree
<agoliveira> wasabi: The lack of openness regarding parts of Nokia tablets, for one.
<wasabi> Yeah. Pretty much what I guessed.
<wasabi> Alas!
<agoliveira> mjg59`: Hey Mathew. I thought that you would be away for some time.
<wasabi> Would be nice if Nokia were to work on rebasing to Ubuntu. ;)   Their hacked up Debian cannot be a joy to maintain.
<mjg59`> agoliveira: Yeah, on a train right now
<mjg59`> THough just arriving
<mjg59`> I have just over a week to get this finished, then I'm taking a holiday
<lool> InSearchOf: So what would you be providing for an ARM port?  I guess the basic things are buildd hardware, not sure whether these need to be hosted and maintained by Canonical staff (could be a requirement), porting and bootstrapping work (bootstrapping the toolchain, updating dpkg, kernel configs etc., goind through build-dep loops etv/)
<lool> And then there's day to day buildd admin, and actual porting of the build failures I guess
<InSearchOf> lool,  all builds current run under our own env.  we use ptxdist.. as our builder. 
<InSearchOf> we have an x86 based live cd that contains all the binaries required to run a full successful build... from building to initial cross compiler...
<InSearchOf> from there you can build the image you desire containing all selected apps you want in the build
<InSearchOf> I also have sashz (another dev form the pdaxrom team) in the room if you have any questions he is here to respond
<lool> InSearchOf: ptxdist is another story; of course you can package ptxdist for Ubuntu and run it under Ubuntu if you like, but the current UME builds are not using this particular build system / rootstrap generation system
<lool> InSearchOf: You seemed to be looking at whether Ubuntu would be having ARM support because you target arm; my natural followup question is: what would you be providing for this to happen
<lool> ATM, my understanding is that Ubuntu buildds are bought by Canonical and run by Canonical; which is why I wonder what an ARM port would actually need to happen: hardware for sure, but some buildd admins, hosting etc.
<lool> And if it's an ubuntu.com or canonical.com port, then this might imply that Canonical runs and owns the buildds
<InSearchOf> lool, well when you say hardware do you mean for hosting? or for building?
<InSearchOf> we can move our build system over to the standard build system used by Ubuntu, there will be a bit of a learning curve... but it can be done
<InSearchOf> but we would initially be able to host our own developement server for the initial configuration (till we get the bugs worked out in the merger)
<InSearchOf> and over time we would mesh into UME and our team would focus on getting the underlying OS (kernel/hotplug/apm/etc) functioning and the top lay be UME
<InSearchOf> layer* being*
<lool> InSearchOf: I mean hardware for building
<lool> InSearchOf: Not sure you know about it, but Ubuntu has buildds for many arches already; all are run by Canonical people I think
 * lool goes for dinner
<InSearchOf> lool,  we can merge our data into your system, that is not a problem at all.
#ubuntu-mobile 2007-12-11
<dholbach> good morning
<guardian> morning
<InSearchOf> Is pbuilder the standard build for UME?
<lool> InSearchOf: You can use pbuilder, but the build is based on a (probably modified) sbuild and scheduled by Soyuz (Launchpad)
<InSearchOf> lool, alright.. I'm going to be setting up everything tonight... where can I get docs on sbuild? or is it pretty much the same as pbuild.
<InSearchOf> on my local dev server that is
<lool> InSearchOf: You might want to have a look at the sbuild and schroot packages; then google for wanna-build; there aren't many docs, but there are some on debian.org I think
<lool> InSearchOf: But I don't know what your efforts will be for
<InSearchOf> lool, what do you mean?
<lool> InSearchOf: Well you're free to setup what you want, but I don't think you have any guarantee that your archive / builds end up with an ubuntu.com label on them: I'd personally guess that to be ports.ubuntu.com packages, the buildds have to be run in canonical/ubuntu infrastructure
<lool> InSearchOf: Also, the whole ubuntu.com builds are currently scheduled by a central piece of infrastructure which you don't have access to; the data is publicly available (the list of source packages / versions), but you'd have to reinvent the wheel to hook into them (to get the list of what sources you need to build for example)
<InSearchOf> lool, ahh... well maybe I will take a different approach... thanks for the heads up
<lool> InSearchOf: There are thousands of packages to build and to give back and to host etc.; it's a big task
<lool> InSearchOf: But then I don't know what your goal is
<InSearchOf> lool, my main goal was to understand how UME functions
<lool> If your goal is to take the source packages from ubuntu.com and build them for your target hardware, that's fine; you might want to select a subset of the archive naturally
<lool> InSearchOf: UME functions mostly like Ubuntu functions
<lool> Except for the image builds which are made with a different tool
<lool> InSearchOf: We upload source packages to the archive, and these source packages are the same as for other arches
<InSearchOf> lool, I just want to be a step ahead of the game if the project gets approved
<lool> InSearchOf: More clearly: glibc is uploaded once and built for all arches
<lool> It's the same source
<InSearchOf> lool, that is exactly how pdaXrom's builder works
<lool> InSearchOf: If your goal is that UME ends up producing ARM packages / images, then perhaps you should explain this on a public list with key audience and explain what you would bring into the project to make it happen (obvisouly adding an arch has a cost for the current infrastructure / team)
<lool> InSearchOf: Right, but since we're using the same central architecture for UME + Ubuntu for most things, we're not going to change to pdaXrom just for ARM
<lool> Actually the whole architecture works for ARM as well, it's just not done at the moment
<InSearchOf> lool, no I wasnt trying to convert anyone... I was just stating the fact
<lool> InSearchOf: Ok; well "pbuilder" can build from source for ARM too
<lool> But we're only using pbuilder on end-developer systems; it's handy to setup, but it's not made to interact with an archive as large as the one we have
<lool> InSearchOf: I also have to mention there is already a quite large ARM effort on Debian's front: there are 3 arm architectures: arm, armeb and armel
<InSearchOf> agreed, Would the mailing list be a place for me to state my proposal?
<lool> arm is an official Debian arch; armel is pending inclusion and was rebuilt at gnuab
<lool> For Ubuntu, we could start from such an arch to bootstrap the Ubuntu armel arch
<lool> InSearchOf: Depends of the proposal you want to make: if it's about adding an arch, then ubuntu-devel or devel-discuss might or might not be better suited than -mobile; not sure
<InSearchOf> lool, it seems like I dont have a very good chance at getting this to pass though the board
<lool> InSearchOf: I think arm is much desired, but I want to make you aware of the fact that it represents an important effort on the Ubuntu side of things to add an arch like we have ia64/powerpc etc. and it has many requirements to happen
<lool> InSearchOf: It's likely that adding an architecture represent a concrete cost in human resources and in hardware etc.; things which you might be able to offer or not
<InSearchOf> lool, agreed... but I'm determined so I'm going to try my best to state my claim and make this worth while to everyone
<lool> InSearchOf: For example, you don't know about the current build infrastructure; I don't know whether it's possible that for example your team runs the buildds for Ubuntu, but if you say that you offer the hardware and some buildd maintainer time for a year, perhaps you'll make your proposal more appealing than if you say "please buy some hardware and spend some time to build an arm flavor"
<lool> InSearchOf: Certainly discussing it is the important part of it :)
<lool> InSearchOf: Simply: do know that the cost can be quite high for Ubuntu and/or Canonical
<InSearchOf> lool, I understand that, and yes we have servers located in 3 places in the world. I can do my builds on a local box with out the need of ubuntu to host it. BUT, if there is a requirement for it to be hosted by Canocial or Ubuntu, then I really wont have a choice
<lool> InSearchOf: Ok; so perhaps explain that you want Ubuntu ARM .debs (or "armel"), and that you can offer hardware, and optionally hosting
<lool> InSearchOf: Did you try using Debian's arm .debs?  Is this what you're looking for, but with Ubuntu sources instead?
<InSearchOf> lool, currently we build *.ipk, our OS isn't debian based at all... 
<InSearchOf> if we would build in deb support we the apps would most likely run.
<InSearchOf> We build armv5tel which is optimized for the pxa270... but standard arm packages will run
<lool> InSearchOf: Well you need to check which CPU requirements this means, what software versions are available etc. I guess
<InSearchOf> lool, alright I will look into that. 
<lool> Well just a suggestion
<lool> But adding an arch is such a big task that this is really important to get right
<InSearchOf> lool, any other hints that might help me get in the door?
<lool> Give as much detail as possible on what your big picture goal is and technical details of your constraints :)
<InSearchOf> lool, I'm going to be buggin you everyday :-) j/k
<lool> Heh
<lool> But you're the first person backing the desire for ARM with something more concrete like hardware
<lool> We had many requests for it, but nobody wanting to sponsor it at some level
<lool> Dunno whether your sponsoring will be sufficient, it's certainly worth trying ;)
<InSearchOf> Well, I'm here to get it done... I would like to actually expand outside of the Zaurus market into other ARM based devices
<ian_brasil> i am sure you know this already but i did not understand arm to well until i kept this 'cheat sheet' with me:
<ian_brasil> ARM = the old ARM
<ian_brasil>  ARMEL = ARM + EABI + Little Endian
<ian_brasil>  ARMEB = ARM + EABI + Big Endian
<ian_brasil>  EABI is the new ARM Embbeded ABI
<ian_brasil>  and ABI is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Application_binary_interface
<lool> http://wiki.debian.org/ArmEabiPort
<lool> I think the important data apart of endianess is the version of the ARM architecture / CPU instructions which is being allowed and the floating point implementation
<lool> At the moment, floating point is extremely expensive and only very old ARM instructions are allowed IIRC
<ian_brasil> IIRC armel is the most widely used (at least recently) so it probably makes sense to target that 
<lool> Yes, armeb is quite less common; the slug is one notable user, but it can do both
<agoliveira> I like ARM. As smagoun once said, there's a cure for that but what the heck :)
<smagoun> armel + eabi + a decent L2 cache on the chip goes a long way toward fixing ARM...
<amitk__> smagoun: isn't that what everybody uses :-p
<smagoun> amitk__: I wish! We did development on the old ABI with the PXA270. That meant WMMX was off-limits, and the 32KB cache didn't get along well with Mozilla
<smagoun> it wasn't pretty
<amitk__> smagoun: think about it this way. You can tell your kids you actually did programming on a single core ARM processor with 32KB cache ;)
<smagoun> that, and the 6502...
<agoliveira> cache is for sissies...
<smagoun> agoliveira: I don't think the Mozilla devs like being called sissies :)
 * agoliveira did a lot assembly for 6502, z80 and the lot
<amitk__> agoliveira: I imagine you mess with the instruction pipelines directly....
<agoliveira> amitk__: Those were the days, self-modifing code, a bit of forth too. :)
<lool> I collected a proposed agenda or list of topics at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded/UsbClientMeeting
<suihkulokki> lool: I suggest considering MTP
<lool> suihkulokki: Right, will mentoin PTP too, thanks
<suihkulokki> I'm not sure if it's the right choice, but the alternatives suck too..
<lool> Argh, wrong level
<lool> suihkulokki: Well I'm clearly unhappy with the mass storage proposal; I wouldn't mind doing a bunch of things over IP though
<lool> But PTP is fairly common, so MTP sounds plausible -- dunno how widespread that is
<suihkulokki> lool: windows media player does that
<lool> suihkulokki: Do you know about licensing / I.P. issues with MTP?
<suihkulokki> nope, but it's pretty trivial stuff
<suihkulokki> (unless you do the DRM thing)
<lool> suihkulokki: Quite interesting then
<lool> RNDIS seemed to be problematic because of Microsoft intellectual property at some level
<suihkulokki> but don't trust me on IPR, IANAL etc
<lool> agoliveira, smagoun, amitk__, suihkulokki: feel free to complete the wiki page; before the meeting next hour
<lool> suihkulokki: "You're the one who told us!"
<agoliveira> lool: Sorry, I don't have what to add as I'm not very familiar with the issue but in a higher level.
<lool> agoliveira: Just reviewing it was nice already; thanks
* lool changed the topic of #ubuntu-mobile to: USB Client Meeting 1700 - 1800 UTC https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded/UsbClientMeeting | https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded | https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded/FAQ
 * agoliveira frightens by the perspective of using mass storage with vfat 
<lool> I feel it's fragile to mount/umount stuff and use it from Windows and then Linux
<lool> And it's obviously restrictive
<smagoun> If the system could boot quickly (<10sec) we could simply shut down the OS then boot into a client-only mode when connected to the PC. iPod does this. When the user's done, they unplug + the system quickly comes back up in UME.
<lool> smagoun: Perhaps this makes sense on the wiki page?
<lool> I'll leave it up to you to list it there or to mention it during the meeting
<smagoun> lool: possibly. The 10sec boot is a bit of a fantasy, sadly
<lool> It would seem less fragile to me like you describe, but it's a different drawback instead
<lool> We would trade reliability for reboots
<lool> I feel the IP based solutions are vastly superior because they can all work at the same time and the device can still be used normally
<smagoun> might not be a bad tradeoff...
<smagoun> it's not like syncing/file sharing is inherently reliable as it is...
<lool> smagoun: I concur; especially since I don't expect many app to handle a new UME specific DBus message "UME has detected an USB cable connection; please save yourself and shut yourself down" while handling shutdown is to be expected
<smagoun> exactly
<smagoun> What's the right channel for asking questions about Firefox on Ubuntu? I'm trying to package a FF extension, but I'm not having much luck. #distro? #ubuntu-devel?
<lool> smagoun: Dunno the channel but the right person is asac :)
<lool> asac: ^^^
<asac> smagoun: #ubuntu-mozillateam
<smagoun> asac: thz
<smagoun> thx
 * ian_brasil hopes smagoun is doing this for the midbrowser
<smagoun> ian_brasil: yup - grab and drag extension
<agoliveira> smagoun: Well, I had this idea of an "a la Apple" approach: one can't simply copy files on and off the device but has to use a client application for that. THis approach would have a few advantages like standarize access and make on the fly conversion of file formats thus we would not have to worry with codecs and file formats support. The client would do that on the desktop. The problem is that we would have to write this applica
<agoliveira> This is the way ipod/iphone works and I don't see people complaining about it.
<smagoun> agoliveira: That client application would have to be a windows app. You want to write it? I don't. :)
<agoliveira> smagoun: I don't see a problem with that and yes, I would write it.
<alek_desktop> rob__: ping
<alek_desktop> rustyl: ping
<smagoun> agoliveira: I think it's a safe approach, I just don't want to deal with Windows or supporting a client app. You should add it to the meeting agenda.
<lool> agoliveira: On what layer would your application run?
<lool> I think it's nice to use PTP as it would simply trigger the proper app on most computers
<lool> "File sharing" protocols are capable of what we need, but then we're showing up technical bits (files) to the end user which we might want to avoid
<agoliveira> lool: That's an idea. PTP could trigger the application that would take care of the files, sync and format conversion.
<lool> k
<agoliveira> wiki.ubuntu.com is sloooooow today...
<alek_desktop> lool, regarding to PTP, do you know any existing Linux gadget driver for that?
<lool> alek_desktop: I don't know about them
<alek_desktop> lool, another question, does PTP support any other media file beside pics? 
<lool> alek_desktop: suihkulokki mentionned MTP which is an extensoin for other media files
<alek_desktop> lool, well. need to look it up. thanks.
<lool> alek_desktop: There's something called gadgetfs and the page at http://tali.admingilde.org/linux-docbook/gadget/ch02.html says "file system (for PTP gadgets)"
<lool> Dunno whether this is the driver
<lool> I'd guess this is a host mode driver; right now most apps are based on gphoto which uses libisb directly
<lool> It seems many people would want something like this though :)
<lool> agoliveira: I'm not sure why you mention "completely different approach" on the wiki in a separate section but you say you would use PTP
<agoliveira> lool: I meant by that adding a different layer to the user. In this case the access method does not matter.
<agoliveira> Sorry, poor choice of words.
<agoliveira> lool: Edit it out if you want please.
<lool> smagoun: "Reboot in client mode" do you consider this specific to mass storage implementation?  If it's orthogonal, perhaps it should be in "implementation"?  just a thought
<alek_desktop> hey, rustyl_ and bspencer
<rustyl_> alek_desktop, hows it going
<robr> hi guys
<bspencer> alek_desktop, morning
<alek_desktop> well, we just start to talk :-)
<agoliveira> rustyl_, bspencer, How's CHina, guys?
<rustyl_> agoliveira, we are back now
<alek_desktop> morning, guys
<bspencer> agoliveira, hello.  We're back in the states now
<bspencer> but China was great.  
<smagoun> lool: it's not necessarily mass-storage specific
<agoliveira> I envy you, I aways wanted to be there.
<bspencer> a little smoggy... but a nice visit and a cool city
<davidm> bspencer, it's Intel's meeting do you want to run Mootbot?
<lool> smagoun: (I agree; in fact it could work with whatever layer, so it's not really in the choice of layer I guess)
<suihkulokki> smagoun: ipod touch and iphone no longer provide direct mass storage access afaik
<davidm> bspencer, it will make it a bit easier to keep notes from the meeting I think.
<lool> (Thanks everybody from Intel for making it to the meeting!  It's quite early or late where you live)
<bspencer> davidm, sure... I haven't been paying attention to how though :)
<bspencer> MootBot, activate.
<davidm> bspencer, #startmeeting
<bspencer> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 17:02. The chair is bspencer.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<bspencer> rock
<bspencer> I'm not the organizer, but I'll keep notes
<rustyl_> my ipod acts as a mass-storage device
<agoliveira> bspencer: Bob has thah powah!
<bspencer> rusty, alek_desktop   do you want to drive?
<rustyl_> and my iphone
<davidm> bspencer, you might want to set [topic]
<bspencer> [topic] USB Client for MID
<MootBot> New Topic:  USB Client for MID 
<bspencer> ?
<rustyl_> hmm...
<HappyCamp> I'm here
<rustyl_> well... we started going down a path for moblin
<rustyl_> and the path we choose for moblin was a very simple, mass-storage specific path
<robr> lool sent out an outline/agenda ... but first i think we should have rusty give an overview of the moblin solution
<rustyl_> where we have to coordinate access to a vfat partition
<rustyl_> ok
<lool> [ "Agenda" is in the topic <https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded/UsbClientMeeting> ]
 * rustyl_ looks at the agenda
<bspencer> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded/UsbClientMeeting
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded/UsbClientMeeting 
<lool> (It's more a list of things we don't want to forget to discuss than an agenda)
<alek_desktop> rob, which name is "real" rob ?
<robr> alek_desktop: they're all me -- just restoring one of my systems
<rustyl_> the reality is that there are a numerous possible solutions, and a given customer will likely choose what ever makes sense for their product
<davidm> rustyl, why do you want to give access to vfat, eext3 has always been the spec not vfat
<rustyl_> i really wanted a very simple solution on moblin.org to help proof the usb client gadget drivers
<davidm> Are you thinking of external flashs not the internal space?
<HappyCamp> lool, can you define PTP and MTP when we get to it?
<rustyl_> let me layout the simple plans we were thinking
<rustyl_> ok, so one possible solution:
<lool> HappyCamp: I think it's best you checkout the wikipedia page -- it's where I learnt about them myself
<lool> HappyCamp: PTP is what many cameras and even the iPhone use when transferring photos to your photo application
<rustyl_> we actually use a vfat partition on disk to host all user data (media files, media database, cal database, etc.)
<lool> HappyCamp: I understand it's directly over USB
<lool> MTP is a generalization
<rustyl_> we coordinate via hotplug scripts access to the partitions
<rustyl_> and specifically lock out the user from using the device while in 'sync mode'
<rustyl_> and when we unplug then we remount the vfat partion and open the gates
<lool> rustyl_: Where's the partition exactly?  /home?  /home/ume?  /home/ume/Documents?
<rustyl_> so... that's just one solution
<rustyl_> lool, my idea was to choose a location and then document it via a gconf entry
<HappyCamp> lool, thanks
<rustyl_> so the media app wouldn't hard code any specific path, but just read the path from a gconf entry (and use a hard coded default if the gconf entry isn't there)
<lool> Err where would your GConf db be?  in /home/ume/.gconfd?  :)
<lool> (.gconf not .gconfd)
<rustyl_> isn't there a system wide entry?
<lool> There are mandatory settings and default settings, but no system wide DB
<lool> The DB is per user
<rustyl_> ok, so not gconf
<rustyl_> but that's the basic idea... not much to it
<bspencer> [idea] vfat partition on MID hosts media files, media database, etc.  Hotplug scripts used to access partition.  PC has access to mounted drive exposing vfat partition.
<MootBot> IDEA received:  vfat partition on MID hosts media files, media database, etc.  Hotplug scripts used to access partition.  PC has access to mounted drive exposing vfat partition. 
<lool> The design is very different if only apps accessing Documents/ need to be closed, or all aps accessing $HOME
<rustyl_> only apps accessing something like Documents
<lool> Sorry to interrupt; I think you were still in the middle of presenting the current moblin solution
<alek_desktop> lool, we put the gconf schemas under /etc/gconf/gconf.xml.defaults
<amitk__> rustyl_: presumably you have looked at how VFAT will work over NAND flash?
<amitk__> rustyl_: in terms of wear-levelling, that is.
<rustyl_> there are details of course, but the idea is that the hotplug script would signal applications that use this personal storage to close open files, and then the script would unmount the device (and if it had to then kill the apps) before exposing the device to the host pc over usb
<lool> alek_desktop: What's the point of using GConf?  For which user would you start a gconfd?  What if the data has been overriden in ~/.gconf and it's not mounted?
<lool> alek_desktop: I don't think GConf makes sense
<rustyl_> amitk__, so far all the design wins i have seen have hardware that stands between the os and the flash, and the hardware makes the device look like a regular drive (i.e. handling wear leveling and the rest)
<rustyl_> lool, the idea is that we have some kind of configuration that points to the mount.  If gconf doesn't work then we use something else
<lool> rustyl_: Why did you decide to follow the mass storage path?
<davidm> rustyl, so you are suggesting that all apps that use storage have to be revised to know what to do when signaled?
<lool> rustyl_: (ack)
<alek_desktop> lool, the Gconf existing in this solution only means the mount point is configurable.
<patm> don't we lose a lot of robustness putting media on a vfat partition rather than ext3?
<rustyl_> i think the network access is pretty darn complicated, and i need to proof something now
<lool> alek_desktop: Ack; I'm just pointing out GConf is not what you're looking for here
<smagoun> rustyl_: Are you building a proof of concept or something that's suitable for a product?
<agoliveira> patm: +1 the problem is windows having to read the files.
<patm> the design I have has a 2G drive, do I need to permanently allocate disk just for the vfat partition as well?
<davidm> rustyl_,  so you are suggesting that all apps that use storage have to be revised to know what to do when signaled?
<lool> rustyl_: Since we're talking of ultra mobile devices, I thought that perhaps you'd have a solution for sharing ofer wifi -- did you settle on one?
<patm> agoliveira, I understand, this is not a practical solution
<rustyl_> i think it would be suitable for product, but my point is that we are not dictating what every possible vender might or might not build.  We do need to give simple access over USB to app data
<lool> rustyl_: Do you need it over wifi as well?
<lool> Isn't wifi more mobile and user friendly than e.g. plugging a USB cable?
<rustyl_> lool, i don't have any requirements to provide access of wifi, but that would be cool.  I do not know what your customer is demanding
<rustyl_> i think the issue is that you can not assume everyone has wifi
<lool> rustyl_: I'm sorry if I ask a very naive question, but who's setting your requirements for USB cable access and not wifi?
<lool> Is this internal to Intel?
<patm> I think on an internet device you can assume network access
<rustyl_> yes, i do have internal requirements
<patm> The USB client PRD states that file access over wifi is too complicated for users
<rustyl_> basically... enable the hardware.  We have this usb client hardware, so use it
<patm> they only think it is used for internet
<alek_desktop> and the most CE devices are using USB as sync way I think.
<suihkulokki> btw, wifi cameras use PTP over ip for transferring pics
<patm> This is much less of a slave to PC type of device than those using usb client
<rustyl_> i guess i still buy the cheap cameras
<lool> suihkulokki: Wow
<lool> suihkulokki: mdns to locate them?
<suihkulokki> lool: I'm not sure
<smagoun> all, keep in mind that any sort of network access introduces some security requirements that aren't present for a direct (USB) connection
<alek_desktop> smagoun, correct.
<davidm> rustyl_,  Two questions that I think are important, 1) You are suggesting that all apps that use storage have to be revised to know what to do when signaled? So if a user is viewing a video clip and plugs in the USB it's OK to terminate what they are watching under them?  2) Their is an assumption that the internal storage will be partitioned off into OS and data storage and data storage will be VFAT?
<rustyl_> 1. all apps that are storing files that they wish to sync
<rustyl_> 2. yes, we actually partition vfat
<rustyl_> if we partition the device or use a file is open, but that was the idea
<rustyl_> ok, that's one path... did we want to iterate over the other possible paths?
<agoliveira> Unless we use a "client mode" when the sync/file transfer is activated or something of the sorts
<rustyl_> we were going to put the device in something like 'sync mode', opening a full screen window blocking access to the device from the user
<lool> rustyl_: So what about PTP?
<rustyl_> somebody describe it
<agoliveira> rustyl_: That's the idea.
<lool> rustyl_: Protocol implemented by many cameras to exchange photos with the PC
<lool> rustyl_: And its friend MTP which is an extension for other medias
<rustyl_> i mean... how does the entire picture look
<rustyl_> does that mean we have an application running on the host device?
<lool> rustyl_: I guess kernel driver implements PTP device emulation and is hooked to some userspace program similar to gphoto programs, but sharing photos instead of retrieving them
<rustyl_> to open the other end of the ptp connection? or is there some standard service that already exists on pc's
<lool> kernel side is probably optional since gphoto currently speaks PTP with cameras
<rustyl_> somebody remind me what MTP is
<HappyCamp> Media Transfer Protocol???
<lool> rustyl_: 18:28 < lool> rustyl_: And its friend MTP which is an extension for other medias
<lool> rustyl_: Microsoft extension to PTP to handle other media types than just photos
<HappyCamp> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_Transfer_Protocol
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_Transfer_Protocol 
<rustyl_> oh... i thought ptp was just point-to-point :->
<HappyCamp> Picture Transfer Protocol
<lool> rustyl_: No, it's like what the iPhone is doing (only if you did take some photos) or what your camera is doing if it's not only mass storage
<lool> My Canon cameras do this for example
 * rustyl_ notices the wikipedia ref to potentially new USB class
<lool> You can also see it's widely implemented in hardware devices so it's expected to be supported by the OS
<lool> e.g. OSX simply starts iPhoto when I plug the iPhone with photos (and iTunes for other stuff)
<rustyl_> would we need to implement a different gadget driver, or could we do this in user space (on the device)?
<lool> rustyl_: So I guess PTP wasn't explored at Intel ATM?  It seems like a solution based on this doesn't require vfat and can be used "live"
<rustyl_> lool, it does look promising
<lool> rustyl_: Didn't investigate whether we need a driver, Alek started some research and I googled too, and couldn't find one
<lool> rustyl_: I think libgphoto2 is in userspace
<alek_desktop> lool, seems no Linux  gadget driver implementation available yet 
<rustyl_> libgphoto2 is user space... are you saying it implements ptp?
<lool> It's using libusb
<alek_desktop> http://www.linux-usb.org/gadget
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://www.linux-usb.org/gadget 
<lool> I mean it's a full user space implementation
<lool> You don't need an USB PTP driver to use libgphoto2
<lool> Sorry, wasn't very clear
<rustyl_> lool, bug libgphoto2 works on host connections.... has anyone ever done this on the client side?
<lool> rustyl_: I don't know about it and couldn't find such an implementation in some minutes research
<lool> But found people looking for one :)
<rustyl_> ok, so ptp/mtp looks promising, but needs some more investigation 
<rustyl_> to fully understand how a solution will work
<lool> Ok; there was also proposal to do IP over USB; I suppose this is mostly RNDIS, dunno whether alternatives exist
<bspencer> [idea] Use PTP/MTP to transfer data over USB connection.  Needs more investigation.  
<MootBot> IDEA received:  Use PTP/MTP to transfer data over USB connection.  Needs more investigation.   
<rustyl_> are there any additional security conserns (just thinking out loud)
<rustyl_> i'm guessing not since this isn't something we do over the network
<lool> rustyl_: You mean in the IP over USB case?
<rustyl_> and if it has any security checks then its more the a vfat/mass-storage solution
<rustyl_> i was talking about the PTP/MTP... just trying to think of more gotcha's, but that can be done in the investigation
<lool> vfat looks like zero access control to me; if you want to do access control, then I wonder over which protocol we would do this
<rustyl_> it is zero access control
<bspencer> rustyl, for last idea (vfat), we could create software on the PC that mounts the ext3 partition and translates it to a filesystem view for users.
<bspencer> then we wouldn't have to deal with a fixed-size, no-security, non-journaling vfat partition.  (brainstorming)
<lool> bspencer: I think there's an ext3 browser under Windows
<bspencer> lool, yes, I've seen that.  open source?
<davidm> bspencer, better idea, a linux driver that promotes ext3 as vfat so you don't need anything on the Windows machine.
<agoliveira> bspencer: Yes
<smagoun> bspencer: we can do the fat<-->ext3 translation on the device
<lool> bspencer: I've seen at least one opensource one
<rustyl_> ok, but we are not talking about the traditional mass-storage device gadget driver, but something that can share access to the device without corrumpting the filesystem
<rustyl_> that's the key... mass-storage that can share access
<lool> rustyl_: Not necessarily, we could reboot into a share-only mode as smagoun proposed
<agoliveira> lool: Rebooting is costly
<lool> With a translation layer, we might be able to do concurrent accesses
<rustyl_> sure... so that's kind of in-line with the vfat solution
<rustyl_> but IF we could share then that would really simplify things
<lool> Right, PC side ext3 support suffers from the same issues as vfat
<rustyl_> but maybe it's not really feasible
<lool> Except it doesn't impose cutting space in two
<rustyl_> it simplifies partitioning
<bspencer> even if we force apps to shutdown when syncing, having no vfat on MID is desireable, if possible
<smagoun> rustyl_: The open-source emulator QEMU includes code that presents a folder to the emulated environment as a VFAT device.
<rustyl_> but it suffers from needing software on the host that is not allways there (i.e. i don't think out of the box OSX and WinBlows can mount extanything)
<bspencer> smagoun, fat--ext3.  Can you find some pointers
<lool> rustyl_: I think OSX can do ext3
<rustyl_> really?
<smagoun> lool: I don't think so
<lool> I think I plugged an USB key with ext3 at some point
<rustyl_> it's hard to tell with OSX since it hides all the low level stuff from the user
<lool> I should check that
<lool> Anyway windows doesn't, so the question is m00t
<davidm> rustyl_, simplifying partitioning is important when dealing with small devices, and not killing applications with open files is also important.
<smagoun> bspencer: qemu is here: http://fabrice.bellard.free.fr/qemu/ I'm trying to find decent docs on the vfat<->ext layer/features
<rustyl_> let's do capture the idea said earlier... boot into sync mode that shares the entire ext filesystem
<bspencer> davidm, but I think the latter is less important -- if the user plugs in, we can prompt (do you want to sync now and kill apps? yes/no)
<suihkulokki> smagoun: the virtual vfat thing in qemu is buggy like hell
<bspencer> [idea]  boot into sync mode that shares the entire ext filesystem
<MootBot> IDEA received:   boot into sync mode that shares the entire ext filesystem 
<smagoun> rustyl_: we don't want to share the entire ext filesystem in any case - we only want to share a subset (/home/ume/Documents, for example)
<smagoun> suihkulokki: really? I've never had trouble with it (though I don't use it on a daily basis)
<suihkulokki> smagoun: which is no suprise, since a OS mounting a vfat partition does not expect blocks getting changed underneath
<lool> Not trivial to share the ext3 in single user mode or something as we need some running linux kernel sharing the block device as mass storage, but this linux needs a root (/) which is usually the partition we'd like to expose
<smagoun> suihkulokki: if you're changing blocks underneath it, you're using it wrong :)
<lool> Sharing the / would also be quite confusing on the PC side of things (usr dev home var lib etc.)
<suihkulokki> smagoun: that's hardly idiot^Wenduser-proof :P
<lool> (Ah smagoun already said what I just said, sorry)
<davidm> bspencer, unless it requires lots of reworking of applications to not lose users data.
<smagoun> suihkulokki: that depends on how smart your apps are
<smagoun> So correct me if I'm wrong, it sounds like rebooting into a client-only mode will still require a separate partition for user data *if* we want to limit what we expose to the user?
<rustyl_> should we move on to the samba mount over usb-network?
<bspencer> davidm, yes.  losing data is not acceptable in any case.  force-stopping their running video is ok.
<lool> smagoun: I think so; unless we have a special initrd or so
<robr> meeting time check, we on the intel oregon side have a hard stop of 10am for a training class 
<lool> But it's quite a lot of engineering to have one IMO
<lool> Hmm not sure after all
<lool> rustyl_: Please
<bspencer> smagoun, we should look into that.  Seems we could mount any directory as /  if we reboot.  anyway...
<rustyl_> how do people feel about the usb network -> samba mount concept?
<lool> rustyl_: So is there any other way than RNDIS?  Is RNDIS an issue in itself?
<lool> rustyl_: I like the fact that we could use the same technology over all bearers, but I'm not too happy that we expose "files" instead of pictures / movies etc.
<smagoun> rustyl_: I've had to do too much windows support to think that samba is a good idea for much of anything :)
<rustyl_> i do not know if RNDIS is still an issue, but even before considering that... i fear all the moving parts to make the solution work
<lool> So Samba isn't my preferred option; UPnP would be something more tightly integrated for example
<smagoun> That said, from a technical (implementation) perspective it sounds safest - no partitioning to worry about, no translation, we can use ext3 on the device, etc
<rustyl_> yeap, there are some really nice points
<lool> Doing IP might imply doing some DHCP -- or we could rely on default IP allocations on 169. (IIRC)
<agoliveira> Can UPnP be used with non-media related files like documents, for instance?
<rustyl_> i'm sure it could be made to work, but i fear it would be fragile
<alek_desktop> lool, correct. Just like WINCE and activeSync do.
<davidm> bspencer, before you leave the meeting remember to do #endmeeting so Mootbot will correctly save logs.
<rustyl_> are there any other paths we should consider?
<bspencer> davidm, check
<lool> rustyl_: over IP? or apart of IP?
<rustyl_> anything
<smagoun> rustyl_: import/export from a USB flash drive (sneakernet), punt on USB client until we can do it right?
<rustyl_> solutions to share data 
<lool> rustyl_: Over IP we can do other file sharing protocols, but "files" sounds wrong
<lool> There's also PTP over IP which suihkulokki mentionned
<lool> So PTP sounds nice if we can do it directly over USB, or over IP for e.g. Wifi
<lool> Or over RNDIS if we can't get it to work over USB but can get it to work over IP
<patm> plxtech has a linux mtp client, dont know who they are
<bspencer> rustyl, smagoun   our summary of network-> samba is good or not worth pursuing?
<amitk__> lool: PTP is transport independent. You can do it over firewire, usb, IP, etc. 
<lool> amitk__: Sounds cool
<smagoun> lool: on a stock windows xp box, what will the user use to access a PTP share? Does Windows explorer do the right thing?
<amitk__> but most devices out there are implementing it over usb for obvious reasons
<lool> smagoun: WMP is supposed to handle PTP and MTP
<lool> smagoun: iPhoto is supposed to handle PTP at least
<lool> Dunno about what bearers they support
<lool> Obviously USB
<davidm> bspencer, from my point of view network-> samba has good points if you can get network on USB working
<davidm> In that it would work the same from WiFi, USB, Ethernet if the device had it, etc.
<lool> I think Samba can't transport fine grained info about what we're transporting, so it require higher level app logic to e.g. convert media files in the proper format
<lool> What if your MID supports only OGG and you want the PC to transcode files before MTP upload?
<smagoun> bspencer: I think it might be worth it (network/samba), though it has to be *easy to use*
<rustyl_> ok, can we step back for a moment and look at the big picture again?
<davidm> Not sure I understand why we would want to convert media files?
<agoliveira> lool: That's a point to consider and a solution on itself, I guess.
<lool> You can't express that in Samba / Netvios
<lool> Netbios
<bspencer> [idea] network -> samba mount.  from a technical (implementation) perspective it sounds safest - no partitioning to worry about, no translation, we can use ext3 on the device, etc
<bspencer> <rustyl_> yeap, there are some really nice points.    Samba can't transport fine grained info about what we're transporting.  it would work the same from WiFi, USB, Ethernet
<MootBot> IDEA received:  network -> samba mount.  from a technical (implementation) perspective it sounds safest - no partitioning to worry about, no translation, we can use ext3 on the device, etc 
<smagoun> lool: I think transcoding is way beyond the scope of what we're doing here....
<davidm> I'm not sure we would WANT to do that.
<rustyl_> i would like to moblin to provide more then one solution that a solution provider could choose to use
<lool> smagoun: Still, simply expressing that we're talking about pictures, music or video goes a long way
<rustyl_> i know we can make the simple but not nearly as functional mass-storage using vfat thing work in a week
<agoliveira> davidm: I see some advantages as not need to support all kinds of file formats on the device.
<lool> smagoun: What's .mp4 these days?  Video?  Audio?  Where are my pictures?  Pictures/?  Photos/?  Images? etc.
<bspencer> rustyl, the main issue there is that all moblin-based solutions would have vfat partition after that.
<rustyl_> and this path can be used to at least test the client gadget drivers
<bspencer> but we could turn it on/off if desired
<davidm> rustyl_ if you could remove the need for the vfat you might have something there.
<HappyCamp> Intel guys, FYI, mandatory training starting in 2 minutes.
<rustyl_> bspencer, image-creator can provide the flexibility to configure or not configure the vfat solution
<smagoun> lool: our customer's users will want to get word/excel docs onto their devices too - not just media
<suihkulokki> the vfat thing works very well for media that needs be vfat anyway - such as CF/SD memory cards
<davidm> Add in ext3<->vfat translation that is
<lool> I hate the constraints which the mass storage route impose and it requires engineering for an USB specific solution :-/
<agoliveira> smagoun: The files format conversion would take care of that
<lool> smagoun: Sure, so we should have a path for that too
<bspencer> [action] smagoun to find some pointers to client-side vfat--ext3 conversion  :)
<MootBot> ACTION received:  smagoun to find some pointers to client-side vfat--ext3 conversion  :) 
<rustyl_> i think the PTP/MTP looks like the most promising long term solution
<smagoun> agoliveira: in general translation is asking for trouble.
<rustyl_> but i can't implement it in a week
<lool> smagoun: But getting the music to land in WMP or the photos to land in iPhoto doesn't work if all you have is a samba share
<HappyCamp> rustyl +1
<agoliveira> smagoun: To me it's better that have to support all this complexity: would make the device side a lot simpler
<rustyl_> can we continue this later in the week?  i think we have some good discussion going here but it needs to converge
<smagoun> lool: true. The point is we can't say "it does PTP" and expect that the work is complete
<lool> Let's schedule a continuation meeting
<davidm> rustyl_ more conversation is good if we can arrive at a final conclusion.
<lool> smagoun: PTP is not enough I agree; but then I can't tell whether MTP is fully enough or not to close the subject either
<smagoun> rustyl_: have your team implement something working - we can talk about this forever
<bspencer> same time on Thursday?
<bspencer> or after the holidays?
<lool> Isn't that the mobile meeting?
<rustyl_> thursday is hard for me
<bspencer> friday or after the holidays?
<rustyl_> how does Friday morning (Pacific time) sound?
<davidm> thursday is the mobile meeting time
<lool> Same time on thursday is mobile community meeting
<bspencer> 10am Friday.
<bspencer> not sure if Mootbot supports meetings...  
<smagoun> rustyl_: can your team have the vfat parition solution working by then?
<davidm> Friday is OK for me.
<rustyl_> smagoun, the beginnings of one
<smagoun> rustyl_: great. I think that would be a big help to get things moving.
<rustyl_> not complete... i.e. the media app might have to get a bullet in the head instead of it doing the right thing
<lool> rustyl_: Could someone with kernel knowledge check PTP (+MTP?) efforts on your side?
<bspencer> [idea]  USB Client meeting.  Friday, Dec 14th.  10am PST
<MootBot> IDEA received:   USB Client meeting.  Friday, Dec 14th.  10am PST 
<bspencer> or 9am?
<bspencer> oops
<lool> I don't think we can expect all apps to implement support for "USB cable plugged in, please save yourself and close files"
<bspencer> lool,  why not?
<bspencer> s/expect/require
<lool> bspencer: Because many apps don't do it and it's UME specific
<suihkulokki> there is probably a dbus signal nokia apps are listening to
<bspencer> we can make it not UME-specific.   It would be Mobile specific.
<agoliveira> And we just don't have the time/resources to do it in time
<lool> We can expect standard shutdown to work
<lool> To be continued I guess...
<lool> bspencer: close the meeting perhaps?
<bspencer> yes... 
 * lool goes buying some food
<lool> Thanks everybody for attending
<bspencer> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 18:11.
<davidm> I'll add the mootbot logs to the https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded/UsbClientMeeting page
<patm> asac, ping
<asac> patm: ?
<patm> Hey, are you working on the updated midbrowser with FF 3.0 beta 1?
<asac> yes, eventually ... what do you want?
<asac> just a status update?
<patm> asac, I had been talking to cwong about getting a version this week
<patm> I did not realize you were going to work on it as well
<asac> well cwong (or better jimmy) submitted a patch i wanted to review
<asac> so ... we are not working completely uncoordinated :)
<patm> asac, cool, any timeframe idea?
<patm> I heard something about hildon menus
<patm> asac, yous till there?
<asac> yes ... currently trying to look at what they did :)
<jimmy_> i am here
<asac> i cannot tell without looking closer. I don't even know what the issue is atm :)
<asac> jimmy_: ah cool ... hi!
<jimmy_> hi, couldn't catch you yesterday
<asac> jimmy_: yeah ... our timezones don't match exactly ;)
<asac> jimmy_: so how does the hildon menu bug manifest?
<jimmy_> the only issues i've found with the current FF3.0 port, is the hildon menus don't work properly, and the gconf extension was not ported
<asac> jimmy_: yes ... we know that :) ... so how is the menu broken?
<jimmy_> if you first lauch the browser on the mid
<jimmy_> it won't come up
<asac> the menu?
<jimmy_> i had to right click on the page to bring up the browser menu
<asac> k
<jimmy_> then the hildonized menu comes up
<jimmy_> but it doesn't showup in the marque
<jimmy_> it is somewhere off the webpage, so the location where it pops up is not right also
<asac> ok ... the first thing is probably an issue with the hildoneventservice ... the second issue might be fixable by just using the new ffox 3.0 API for positioning window absolute
<asac> (which we had to work around somehow in ffox 2 because the absolute positioning of menus was broken)
<jimmy_> right, so that's why we need your help to fix it :)
<asac> jimmy_: http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/XUL:menupopup
<asac> try to use the firefox 3.0 method in hildonBindings.xml
<asac> (for absolute positioning)
<asac> try: openPopupAtScreen( x, y, isContextMenu )
<jimmy_> what do i pass in for isContextMenu? false?
<asac> i think so ... shouldn't matter much for the positioning though
<jimmy_> i tried that, it seems to have no effect on where it pops up
<jimmy_> but i am able to tweak the offset now to make it appear in the menu
<asac> jimmy_: offset?
<asac> jimmy_: with the new method you should just use hard-coded values: e.g. 40,10
<asac> did you try that?
 * asac building midbrowser 3
<jimmy_> 40, 10 isn't exactly under the marque
<asac> but is it at 40,10?
<jimmy_> i am using 50, 50 for x, y coordinates, which is pretty close
<jimmy_> so that should fix the menu being off
<asac> jimmy_: does the position of the menu change after right clicking somewhereÃ
<asac> (while keeping 50,50)?
<asac> oh right ... you don't see it at all without right clicking?
<jimmy_> no, that's only for the first time when i try to bring it up
<jimmy_> after i did the right click, then i can then bring it up everytime
<jimmy_> and it stays at that position
<asac> yeah ... maybe the first time the menu is just completely displaced?
<jimmy_> so is there a fix for that?
<asac> ... its a bug ... so there should be a fix ;)
<asac> will take a look
<asac> ... and reply to bobs mail
<asac> jimmy_: can you summarize what kind of tweakage you needed to do to adapt the build system for the ffox 3 code-base?
<asac> would be pretty helpful when reviewing this
<jimmy_> i put down the tweaks i did in the guide txt file along with the source, did you read that?
#ubuntu-mobile 2007-12-12
<dholbach> good morning
<guardian> morning
<jouston> patm: Hello
<patm> hello
* smagoun changed the topic of #ubuntu-mobile to: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded/UsbClientMeeting | https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded | https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded/FAQ
* smagoun changed the topic of #ubuntu-mobile to: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded | https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded/FAQ
<mofisto> is it possible to run ubuntu on a windows mobile pocketpc?
<smagoun> mofisto: not right now. PocketPC use an ARM processor, while Ubuntu Mobile is concentrating on devices with i386 processors. There's more info here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded/FAQ
<mofisto> thx
<agoliveira> Hmmm... can't connect to the internal irc server anylonger...
<patm> rob, question about alpha2 graphics drivers
<patm> robr2, ping
#ubuntu-mobile 2007-12-13
<horaceli> lool, ping
<agoliveira> horaceli: Now it's about 3AM for him, I don't think he's around
<horaceli> thanks, agoliveira, :-). 
<lool> horaceli: pong
<horaceli> hi, lool
<horaceli> good to see you
<lool> Same here; how are you doing?
<horaceli> I am good. thanks
<lool> Probably quite late at your place now
<horaceli> how are you?
<lool> Fine
<horaceli> not really, it is 3:13pm my time.
<lool> Oh ok
<horaceli> bfiller_ reported a bug on hildon-desktop-0.0.43 that home layout has some problem in 800x480 resolution
<horaceli> and I fixed in hildon-desktop, mainly for reading current screen resolution to determine the home layout size, it might need to be integrated to hildon-desktop
<horaceli> I have generated the patch, and will share it out soon.
<lool> Ok; bfiller_ has another problem which I couldn't reproduce until now
<horaceli> #2?
<horaceli> the 2nd description under the same bug?
<lool> I'm checking
<lool> It's in #172426
<lool> Ah right, it's the same bug id you worked on
<lool> It's a bad idea to have multiple bugs described in the same report
<lool> horaceli: Anyway, how can I help you?
<horaceli> lool, here is the patch: http://moblin.org/repos/users/horace.li/hildon-desktop-fix-bug-172426.patch
<horaceli> and it is generated based on latest hildon-desktop-ubuntu
<horaceli> rev413
<horaceli> I guess
<lool> Okay
<horaceli> thanks. :-)
<horaceli> any problem, just feel free to let me know
<lool> horaceli: Did you send it upstream?
<horaceli> not yet.
<StevenK> lool: I'm going to upload a new m-i-c to the PPA tonight, after I test things
<horaceli> should I?
<lool> horaceli: I like knowing the opinion of upstream when we merge things; they know the software well
<horaceli> that is a good point.
<lool> StevenK: Any particular issue I should be aware of?
<StevenK> lool: You added the PPA without adding -updates and -security.
<lool> StevenK: They didn't merge all changes at moblin, so it needs to be modified before upload if you take a new snapshot
<StevenK> I'm not going to take a new snapshot.
<lool> StevenK: Ok; I do know about this issue, didn't come to it yet
<StevenK> lool: Ah. Looks like I'll beat you to it.
 * StevenK is testing image builds.
<dholbach> good morning
<theseinfeld> doko: is there a way to use the moblin lpia binary packages at the same time with using the i386?
<theseinfeld> doko: i cannot get the moblin-media package installed because it depends on moko which is only lpia
<doko> theseinfeld: well, you could do so with dpkg --force-architecture, but why is moko only built on lpia?
<lool> horaceli: Thanks for the fix BTW
<theseinfeld> doko: if I use the apt-get upgrade it sais:
<theseinfeld> doko: moblin-media kept back...blah blah moko which is a virtual package
<theseinfeld> doko: I even went further and did the apt.conf.d with APT::Architecture "lpia" :)) to see if I can get it
<theseinfeld> doko: but, is there a way that we can use both i386 and lpia moblin packages? or for every moblin.org lpia.deb we need to make a i386 package?
<doko> no
<doko> just build for i386
<theseinfeld> doko, so you mean that everything that has lpia by moblin has to be redone :) great redundancy...
<ToddBrandt> HappyCamp_laptop: you got FIOS, sweet
<HappyCamp_laptop> Doesn't everone? ;)
<ToddBrandt> I see comcast every once in a while
<ToddBrandt> poor suckers
<davidm> About  to start the meeing
<davidm> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 16:59. The chair is davidm.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
 * lool waves
<davidm> Good day everyone is everyone here?
<davidm> Missing Don I see
<ToddBrandt> here
<davidm> Can anyone from Intel ping Don Johnson?
<davidm> Anyway first topic:
<davidm> [topic] lool to take a look at bug # 172426 and see if he can reproduce it.
<MootBot> New Topic:  lool to take a look at bug # 172426 and see if he can reproduce it. 
<davidm> lool, status?
<lool> Didn't look
<lool> But need to merge patch by Horace which might fix it
<lool> So can you please carry on "lool to merge patch by Horace as an attempt to fix 172426"
<davidm> Will do
<robr2> good morning all
<davidm> [action] carry over lool to take a look at bug # 172426 and see if he can reproduce it. until Dec 20th.
<MootBot> ACTION received:  carry over lool to take a look at bug # 172426 and see if he can reproduce it. until Dec 20th. 
<davidm> I spoke to Don, he will not be joining today
<davidm> next topic
<davidm> [topic] bspencer & Don_Johnson to clarify the process and deliverables
<MootBot> New Topic:  bspencer & Don_Johnson to clarify the process and deliverables 
<davidm> I know that Don has a process meeting set up for tomorrow so I think this is being done.
<davidm> bspenser is not around so I don't know if he has anymore to say on the topic.
<davidm> So I'm going to head to the next topic unless anyone has anything else on this?
<davidm> [topic] bspencer & horaceli to verify the ubuntu branch works
<MootBot> New Topic:  bspencer & horaceli to verify the ubuntu branch works 
<davidm> horaceli, any input on this?
<davidm> looks like horaceli is not around either.
<davidm> I'll carry it over again.
<davidm> [action] #
<davidm> continue to hold open: bspencer & horaceli to verify the ubuntu branch works
<davidm> #
<MootBot> ACTION received:  # 
<davidm> continue to hold open: bspencer & horaceli to verify the ubuntu branch works
<davidm> [action] continue to hold open: bspencer & horaceli to verify the ubuntu branch works
<MootBot> ACTION received:  continue to hold open: bspencer & horaceli to verify the ubuntu branch works 
<mawhalen> Horace is in PRC, he is most likely asleep
<davidm> [topic] smagoun Since my group needs it, I'll take an action item to test overriding exa for a gutsy psb backport. In progress.
<MootBot> New Topic:  smagoun Since my group needs it, I'll take an action item to test overriding exa for a gutsy psb backport. In progress. 
<smagoun> We have a new drop of graphics drivers from Intel for our customer, I've moved on to working with those. I'll post things to the gutsy PPA if/when appropriate. We can close this issue. 
<davidm> OK, thanks smagoun it's closed then
<davidm> mawhalen, thanks for the input on horaceli 
<davidm> [topic] amitk to update hardy ppa with drivers
<MootBot> New Topic:  amitk to update hardy ppa with drivers 
<davidm> amitk, are you around?
<davidm> I know he is working on that, I'll have to ping him off line, he is in India until the new year.
<davidm> [action] davidm to ping amitk for status on #
<davidm> update hardy ppa with drivers
<davidm> #
<MootBot> ACTION received:  davidm to ping amitk for status on # 
<davidm> [topic] davidm to query build team on best way to monitor the i386 builds and the LPIA builds to stay in sync
<MootBot> New Topic:  davidm to query build team on best way to monitor the i386 builds and the LPIA builds to stay in sync 
<davidm> I'm still working this issue, Tollef and I will work this out.
<davidm> I'm going to carry it over
<davidm> [action] carry over, davidm to query build team on best way to monitor the i386 builds and the LPIA builds to stay in sync.
<MootBot> ACTION received:  carry over, davidm to query build team on best way to monitor the i386 builds and the LPIA builds to stay in sync. 
<davidm> [topic] Michael Frey to post " Discuss reasons behind the decision to use acpid, custom moblin battery applet instead of using gnome-power-manager and its status bar applet" question to the list.
<MootBot> New Topic:  Michael Frey to post " Discuss reasons behind the decision to use acpid, custom moblin battery applet instead of using gnome-power-manager and its status bar applet" question to the list. 
<ChickenCutlass> you can close this -- I had a discussion with ToddBrandt 
<davidm> OK, good enough
<davidm> [topic] agoliveira to report next week any findings on boot speed.
<amitk> davidm: sorry, I got distracted
<MootBot> New Topic:  agoliveira to report next week any findings on boot speed. 
<davidm> amitk, I'll reopen the topic next then 
<smagoun_> davidm: sorry - just lost network connection here. Did you discuss monitoring LPIA builds?
<agoliveira> Yes, I sent an email about the first findings and I had some feedback. Nothing conclusive thought but 2 items:
<davidm> smagoun_, Yes, I'm working that will Tollef today and tomorrow, it's on my list.
<agoliveira> 1) The Q1 lost a good deal of time detecting and loading the modules: a brick kernel might help here but would require to create one for each device.
<agoliveira> 2) Matt noticed that the booting process is very CPU bound. We could try to reduce this usiing an all ext3 booting scheme.
<agoliveira> Apart from that I tried to manually simplify the booting scripts but and remove usplash didn't get more than 2 or 3 seconds.
<smagoun_> agoliveira: do you have any concrete recommendations?
<agoliveira> smagoun_: I don't see any real easy way to really reduce boot time. One thing would be do the all ext3 boot and see what happens.
<patm> all ext3 will conflict with the disk footprint requirements, but should be tested
<agoliveira> patm: That's the problem.
<davidm> Seems we need that tested now for two issues, boot speed and flash corruption
<patm> yes
<ChickenCutlass> smagoun_: didn't you find a problem with the console keyboard mapping taking many seconds
<agoliveira> davidm: I don't see flash corruption as an issue. They are much more robust those days.
<smagoun_> agoliveira: did you actually try a kernel with all modules compiled in, disabling udev, etc?
<agoliveira> ChickenCutlass: I didn't see that. Did you noticed anything on the graph I sent?
<agoliveira> smagoun_: No, didn't have time to try that.
<smagoun_> ChickenCutlass: yes. There's a bug somewhere in the acton project in LP. Setting the console font is done twice, it takes 4sec each time
<ChickenCutlass> smagoun_: agoliveira that is 8 seconds -- because it is done twice on boot
<smagoun_> agoliveira: davidm we still see disk corruption on occasion using unionfs
<lool> If the Q1 is the reference platform, we should focus on optimizing ext3 boots; optimizing squashfs boots would be a different job
<patm> Q1 is not the reference platform
<agoliveira> ChickenCutlass: I'll have to check it out as I doin't remember that and I'm quite sure I would have noticed.
<lool> Ok :)
<patm> lool, menlow is the only target that counts
<agoliveira> patm: Unfortunately that's what I have to use as a test base.
<patm> I understand
<agoliveira> That's what IO have to report for now.
<agoliveira> s/O//
<davidm> patm, is there any chance your team will be testing the ext3 partition sometime soon?
<smagoun_> patm: agoliveira many optimizations will benefit both squashfs and ext3-based systems
<ChickenCutlass> agoliveira: The bug is #141261 in LP
<lool> patm: It's not very interesting to look at Q1 boot speeds; I understood that menlow had an even slower CPU and had storage constraints; it's quite different  :-/
<smagoun_> davidm: I tried it at one point. It booted, which was nice. Didn't have time beyond that, we're timesharing our CB among 6 developers
<patm> lool, it is different but I assume it shares some issues
<agoliveira> Well, in this case, maybe someone with menlow should take care of that.
<agoliveira> or send me one
<patm> what smagoun_ said earlier
<agoliveira> smagoun_: Ouch
<smagoun_> lool: I disagree. Q1 optimizations will help the Menlow systems too
<davidm> smagoun_, is there any chance of leaving the ext3 build as the default for a while and see if the corruption goes away and we can get a quick look at boot speed too?
<tonyespy_> i'm with steve...the optimizations may be different, but the technique(s) used could be the same
<lool> smagoun_: Depends if we trade disk against CPU; the Q1 has more of both
<lool> We could well see improvements on the Q1 which are really killing the menlow or vice-versa
<smagoun_> davidm: yes, that's reasonable. We have a tight schedule between now and the end of the year, but I'll see what I can do.
<patm> my original point is that we ultimately need to do timing on the menlow
<lool> +1 for patm 
<Mithrandir> lool: actually, the Q1 has at least a lower clock speed than the menlow systems.
<lool> Mithrandir: I thought the CPU was slower on menlow
<patm> speed  starts at 800 Mhz
<agoliveira> which is the q1 clock
<lool> I didn't hear about clock speeds until now, but I recall I was told it was even slower due to a more energy efficient architecture
<smagoun_> lool: The best way to make a system go faster is do less. In nearly every case that will benefit both platforms equally.
<lool> smagoun_: I'm not saying there are no changes that would benefit both; I'm saying we should bench the target and not infer optimizations from a non-target system
<agoliveira> As the boot process is very cpu bound looks like the first shot would be an all ext3 boot
<robr2> if you speed up ext3 how do you meet the storage footprint size?
<agoliveira> robr2: One can't have it all :)
<davidm> robr2, if ext3 makes a big difference then at least we know that squashfs is a part of the problem.
<smagoun_> robr2: If we use ext3, we don't meet the disk footprint targets.
<Mithrandir> smagoun_: are you sure?
<agoliveira> I think that we can squeeze that a bit by optimizing the installed packages. There must be room to manuver there.
<patm> the ask is for <500MB
<robr2> at one point we did compare booting ext3 to squashfs/unionfs and there was a very small difference between the two -- but we also didn't optimize the boot for ext3 just swapped one for the other
<davidm> smagoun_, right now we have two issues that need to be debugged, boot speed and flash corruption, ext3 testing will help with both.
<smagoun_> Mithrandir: for our customer we're in danger of missing those targets even with squashfs right now :(
<kyleN> < 500MB not including OOo
<patm> you should say disk image corruption, nit just flash issue I think
<davidm> patm, Ah, OK sorry
<Mithrandir> s/disk image/file system/, to nitpick
<davidm> Still testing with ext3 will provide important info for both issues.
<davidm> patm and I just talked off line, I think we have a way around some of his bottleneck.
<robr2> it will give you data, not sure how that will help fix the corruption issue if there's a bug in either unionfs or squashfs and you need it meet the footprint requirement
<smagoun_> davidm: are you going to clone Mithrandir ?
<patm> xmas present
<kyleN> (snowing HARD)
<Mithrandir> no snow here. :-(
<davidm> robr2, it will at least tell us if the problem is in fact the unionfs or squashfs or not.
<davidm> smagoun_, wish I could
<agoliveira> *very* sunny outside :)
<robr2> do you have a set of repeatable steps to reproduce the disk image corruption?
<davidm> robr2 no if we did I'd have someone assigned to fix it.
<ChickenCutlass> robr2: I can get it to happen pretty much all the time by just hard shutting the system down
<ChickenCutlass> robr2: happens more often on the menlow system with SSD flash
<smagoun_> robr2: no, I can't reproduce on command. It usually involves a hard power off though
<agoliveira> So?
<robr2> i'd like to have an engineer help with this issue, can we coordinate/share info?
<davidm> robr2 yes, for sure.
<davidm> [action] Lexington to test ext3 for boot speed and disk image corruption as soon as an extra CB shows up.
<MootBot> ACTION received:  Lexington to test ext3 for boot speed and disk image corruption as soon as an extra CB shows up. 
<Mithrandir> robr2: I've had some luck reproducing it by booting the system, then yanking the power cord midway through a couple of times.
<davidm> [action] davidm to ship his cb to Lexington today overnight.
<MootBot> ACTION received:  davidm to ship his cb to Lexington today overnight. 
<smagoun_> davidm: Thanks!!
<patm> hohoho
<kyleN> xmas 
<davidm> [action] Canonical to share all info with robr2 on disk image corruption as soon as available 
<MootBot> ACTION received:  Canonical to share all info with robr2 on disk image corruption as soon as available  
<robr2> is there a bug already in launchpad we could use to share info?
<davidm> I believe there is, patm smagoun_ is it a public bug?
<patm> robr, not really, I can create one in moblin
<smagoun_> looking now
<davidm> If not we can open a public one
<robr2> we could just enter what we find in the bug there and everyone can update/monitor it as needed
<patm> what project should it go against?
<davidm> mobile I guess, until we can identify what is the issue
<smagoun_> can't find a bug
<davidm> smagoun_, kyleN don't get too excited, I'll need the unit back a some point after the new year but right now I think you can get more use from it solving this stuff.
<davidm> Anyway so one more action to open a public bug?
<davidm> Or is it done already :-)
<davidm> who should open this bug?
<davidm> smagoun_, can you since you care do it the most?
<davidm> [action] davidm to follow up and make sure a bug is opened to share info with Intel
<MootBot> ACTION received:  davidm to follow up and make sure a bug is opened to share info with Intel 
<patm> its private bug#141249, but we should open a new one 
<davidm> patm, yes please
<smagoun_> davidm: sure
<smagoun_> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/moblin-other/+bug/176178
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 176178 in moblin-other "Filesystem corruption on hard shutdown" [Undecided,New] 
<smagoun_> just filed it
<davidm> Good enough, have we gone as far as we can today on this topic?
<agoliveira> This is the kind of situation that should never actually happen, but...
<agoliveira> davidm: I guess so.
<davidm> OK then next topic
<davidm> [topic] robr to arrange a meeting around USB and VFAT issues. In this case all parties to this meeting are scattered around the world so someone will be inconvenienced.
<MootBot> New Topic:  robr to arrange a meeting around USB and VFAT issues. In this case all parties to this meeting are scattered around the world so someone will be inconvenienced. 
<davidm> This happened but has been continued, robr2 is it confirmed for tomorrow or not?
<davidm> do you know?
<robr2> no, i don't know
<robr2> i can send an invite out again to the team, but i need to make sure rustyl and alek are available from intel's side
<davidm> OK, thanks, I have not heard anything more since the meeting.
<lool> robr2: I think you can simply mail ubuntu-mobile@ when yuo have a date
<lool> It needs not be private mail
<davidm> [action] robr2 to check if meeting will happen tomorrow.
<MootBot> ACTION received:  robr2 to check if meeting will happen tomorrow. 
<lool> (since the meeting is public anyway)
<davidm> amitk, you here?
<amitk> yup
<davidm> ok then next topic i
<davidm> [topic] amitk to update hardy ppa with drivers
<MootBot> New Topic:  amitk to update hardy ppa with drivers 
<bspencer> I setup the continued USB meeting for 10am PDT
<bspencer> Friday
<amitk> davidm: hardy ppa?
<davidm> OK, thanks bspencer 
<bspencer> are we agreed that it will work for those here?
<bspencer> cause I don't want to roll out of bed at that early hour for nothing ;)
<davidm> I have to reschedule a meeting with Don Johnson on process but 
<bspencer> silence is affirmation
<agoliveira> bspencer: And that time would be what UTC (I'm lazy to google for it)
<davidm> He had taken that time slot but I'll contact him after this
<bspencer> agoliveira, +9hrs I think
<bspencer> or close to that...maybe +8 or +10 after daylight savings
<lool> I think it's 10
<davidm> I think 1800
<bspencer> fine.  see you then
<HappyCamp_laptop> PDT is either -7 or -8
<davidm>  amitk it was a carry over from the meeting before last week.
<smagoun_> agoliveira: it's 4pm your time
<Mithrandir> US/Pacific is -08:00
<agoliveira> smagoun_: Cool. I was adding PDT to my world clock :)
<agoliveira> smagoun_: Thanks.
<amitk> davidm: you mean gutsy ppa though, right?
<davidm> We have a hardy ppa to be symmetrical with gutsy ppa 
<smagoun_> (agoliveira you might want to double-check, just to be sure!)
<lool> Hmm http://www.world-time-zones.org/zones/pacific-daylight-time.htm says -7
<lool> I'm lost
<davidm> So now I'm confused, amitk I think we need to go back to the old minutes and track this down.
 * amitk learns something new. The vacation was successful :)
<HappyCamp_laptop> lool, we are on standard time right now, not daylight
<davidm> since we are almost out of time I'll leave the carry over in place and we can see what the item was.
<HappyCamp_laptop> PST
<amitk> davidm: sure
<davidm> Ok next topic
<smagoun_> http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock is helpful for this sort of thing
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock is helpful for this sort of thing 
<smagoun_> thanks mootbot
<lool> Ok so -8
<davidm> [topic] smagoun - discuss tagging moblin projects in git
<MootBot> New Topic:  smagoun - discuss tagging moblin projects in git 
<smagoun_> I'd like the intel folks to tag their git trees when doing a release. It makes finding the source that corresponds to a given release much easier. The alternative is wading through commit diffs trying to find the SHA-1 commit ID that corresponds to a release.
<bspencer> smagoun_, I hear your request.  Not the first time
<bspencer> thanks for your patience :-\
<smagoun_> Some trees are already tagged, but some - like moblin-media - aren't tagged, and the commit messages don't always announce a new release
<bspencer> I talked to the media guys about starting this practice when I was visiting in PRC
<HappyCamp_laptop> sounds like a good idea, we have also discussed having our guys create tarballs at release time
<bspencer> I'll encourage them a little stronger
<smagoun_> bspencer: thanks, I appreciate it.
<bspencer> let me clarify my understanding
<bspencer> after git push, you get the tag
<bspencer> then you git tag <tag> version  (or something)
<bspencer> then you can pull from that tag.
<HappyCamp_laptop> bspencer: you have to push the tag too, which I think requires a flag to git push
<smagoun_> bspencer: On your side: git commit, git tag <tag>, git push, git push --tags
<bspencer> cool
 * HappyCamp_laptop wonders if he can work it into the build system some how
 * bspencer likes HappyCamp's wonderings
 * HappyCamp_laptop but probably won't try for now
<davidm> bspencer, are you willing to take an action on this
<amitk> bspencer: at UDS we briefly talked about having a -commits mailing list to track activity on moblin
<HappyCamp_laptop> We do have a commit mailing list
<amitk> HappyCamp_laptop: you do?
<robr2> we've had from day 1 ;-)
<lool> HappyCamp_laptop: git-bp can tag the configured branch with the configured formatted tag and message
<HappyCamp_laptop> Not well publicized :(
<HappyCamp_laptop> https://www.moblin.org/mailman/listinfo/commits
<tonyespy_> amitk: i'm on it...
<davidm> [link] https://www.moblin.org/mailman/listinfo/commits
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://www.moblin.org/mailman/listinfo/commits 
<bspencer> davidm, my action is a little soft because we will discuss it and start the practice, but it has no end date.  I'm happy to have the action though
<davidm> Thanks how about just report status in next meeting?
<bspencer> np
 * agoliveira wants some freaking lasers...
<agoliveira> oops
<davidm> [action] bspencer to talk with deveopers to push get tags when making a release, and report back on status of this
<MootBot> ACTION received:  bspencer to talk with deveopers to push get tags when making a release, and report back on status of this 
<HappyCamp_laptop> amitk: I have also emailed our web content person to add the commit mailing list to the website info.
<davidm> OK we are out of time and there are no new items on the agenda
<amitk> HappyCamp_laptop: thanks
<HappyCamp_laptop> lool: I will see if I have git-bp on our systems
<patm> davidm, can I ask about PPM ?
<davidm> Sure go ahead
<lool> HappyCamp_laptop: That's git-buildpackage BTW, I'm just lazy typing it without tab :)
<patm> basic question is what is the plan and current status for integrating PPM
<HappyCamp_laptop> k
<patm> PPM = power policy manager
<davidm> Ah, thanks
<HappyCamp_laptop> patm: who was supposed to answer this question?
<agoliveira> Even better: which question? :)
<robr2> the right person to answer that question is rustyl 
<davidm> [topic] what is the plan and current status for integrating PPM
<MootBot> New Topic:  what is the plan and current status for integrating PPM 
 * agoliveira is being picky about the question mark, that's all :)
 * HappyCamp_laptop thinks agoliveira wants question marks in front of and at the end of all questions.  Wierd!
<robr2> i know PPM is committed on moblin and in images, but i'm not sure the latest status
<davidm> amitk, do you have any input?
<agoliveira> HappyCamp_laptop: No, we don't speak spanish around here, as you know :)
<kyleN> speak only geek
<robr2> mohammed is the engineer on our side doing the work with rusty coordinating/directing the effort
<amitk> davidm: not really. My plate has been full
<davidm> amitk, OK, thanks
<davidm> patm, can we send the question to rusty in email?
<HappyCamp_laptop> agoliveira: predicted high temperatures this week in Portland: 6, 7, 6, 7, 7 in Celsius, and it is wet :(
<davidm> [action] davidm to query rustyl on status of PPM
<MootBot> ACTION received:  davidm to query rustyl on status of PPM 
<HappyCamp_laptop> Oregon forecast: http://www.wrh.noaa.gov/forecast/MapClick.php?site=pqr&smap=1&textField1=45.53861&textField2=-122.9596&degrees=C
<davidm> OK unless there is anything else I'm going to close the meeting?
<HappyCamp_laptop> +1
<davidm> going once...........
<davidm> going twice.......
<davidm> gone
<davidm> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 18:12.
<agoliveira> HappyCamp_laptop: I can just hope for a better weather in january. In any case I already bought a heavy and water-proof jacket.
<amitk> davidm: are we going to discuss the driver updates now?
<sodarock_home> agoliveira: january is usually colder than December :(
<agoliveira> sodarock_home: I hope it's at least drier or you will see a very ill-tempered version of me there.
<Mithrandir> sodarock_home: it's 6-7Â°C there now?  That's nice and warm..
<sodarock_home> LOL, I don't think agoliveira thinks so :)
<Mithrandir> it's -9Â°C here now.
<sodarock_home> Brrr
<sodarock_home> Okay, I got to go drive into work now
<HappyCamp> praj
#ubuntu-mobile 2007-12-14
<dholbach> good morning
<jussi01> dholbach: morning Daniel!
<dholbach> hey jussi01
<dholbach> MOTU Q&A session in 6 minutes in #ubuntu-classroom
<agoliveira> amitk: Where can I find the .config kernel file for lpia?
<agoliveira> amitk: Duh... forget it :)
<amitk> agoliveira: assuming you have the git repo, go to debian/binary-custom ^W^W^W
<agoliveira> amitk: Ooops... maybe I got wrong. No, I don't get it.
<agoliveira> amitk: Can you just send it to me?
<amitk> agoliveira: debian/binary-custom.d/lpia/patchset
<amitk> agoliveira: actually debian/binary-custom.d/lpia/config.lpia
<agoliveira> amitk: Ok, let me explain my idea: I want to create a monolithic kernel for my Q1 for testing. I suposed I could do that using the stock kernel but looks like I can't?
<amitk> agoliveira: you want to change all modules to built-ins, right?
<agoliveira> Yes
<amitk> agoliveira: edit debian/binary-custom.d/lpiacompat/config.lpia; s/=m/=y/; fakeroot debian/rules custom-binary-lpiacompat
<agoliveira> amitk: I have to leave now for an appointment. Are you going to be here in 1 hour +-?
<amitk> agoliveira: be warned that the kernel binary will be huge
<amitk> agoliveira: yes
<agoliveira> amitk: I just want to test the loading time versus the current one. I'll talk to you when I return. Thanks.
<agoliveira> amitk: Can we return to that chat about the kernel?
<amitk> agoliveira: sure
<agoliveira> amitk: Fine. Ok, I've tried the old .config method but looks like I was superseeded :) Can you explain to me how to obtail the kernel I want? I have to pull from the git tree?
<amitk> agoliveira: start by pulling the git tree
<agoliveira> amitk: I've never done it before. A hint would be great...
<amitk> git clone git://kernel.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ubuntu-hardy.git
<amitk> agoliveira: replace with hardy with gutsy if that is your target
<agoliveira> amitk: Right now it is.
<agoliveira> Hmmm.... this is going to take a while...
<amitk> agoliveira: once that is done (it will take a while depending on your connection speed), edit debian/binary-custom.d/lpiacompat/config.lpia; s/=m/=y/; fakeroot debian/rules custom-binary-lpiacompat
<agoliveira> amitk: and that's it?
<amitk> agoliveira: in theory, yes :)
<agoliveira> amitk: Will it produce a .deb of just the binaries?
<agoliveira> Indexing 511590 objects... ouch...
<amitk> agoliveira: yes.. it will create a .deb for linux-image in the parent directory
<agoliveira> amitk: Great, thanks.
<agoliveira> amitk: fakeroot debian/rules custom-binary-lpiacompat
<agoliveira> No rules to process target: `custom-binary-lpiacompat'.
<amitk> agoliveira: I forgot to mention that you need to run the last command inside a lpia chroot
<amitk> you could use the chroot created by MIC
<agoliveira> amitk: Won't make-kpkg do the same trick if I change .config directly.
<amitk> agoliveira: yes, but you will still need the chroot. And we don't support that method of creating .debs
<agoliveira> amitk: FIne, thanks.
<davidm> robr, robr2 bspencer, rustyl, rustyl_  are we having the USB continuing meeting now?  Or were people not available?
<bspencer> I'm here and available.
<bspencer> davidm, you are right that we said today for a follow up mtg.
<rustyl_> i'm here
<davidm> I did not see an announcement but thought I'd ask, are the folks in china here?
<rustyl_> alek_desktop, you online?
<bspencer> I didn't ask him to come.  It's pretty late there.
<davidm> If folks are not here we can reschedule but I do want to make sure we have this meeting soonish, 
<rustyl_> it's 2am in PRC
<bspencer> davidm, we could discuss what open issues there are
<davidm> We are in next week and then gone for the holiday.
<bspencer> davidm, same around here
<bspencer> what was the goal of this meeting?
<rustyl_> IIRC, we had to cut off a few discussions 
<davidm> I have a feeling that with no announcment lool and others also did not come
<bspencer> Intel is planning to implement a Fat32 USB client solution as a point of reference.
<bspencer> Other technologies can be investigated in parallel
<rustyl_> yeap, but it sounds like the long term solution might be a PTP/MTP solution
<davidm> But yes, as rustyl_ said a few discussions were cut off and more conversation was desireds on both sides in the last meeting.
<smagoun> davidm: lool said he couldn't make a mtg at this time
<bspencer> is there a Canonical or community member who is able to help in this investigation?  (e.g. do some proof of concept work around PTP/MTP and make a recommendation)  
<davidm> So I think the goal was to figure out if there was something better longer term since the vfat is not a very good answer especially on devices that have limited space.
 * lool is closing the computer and waves good week end
<davidm> bspencer, I don't know but if we open the conversation up we might get some takers.
<smagoun> I'm not convinced that MTP will let users get, say, saved PDF documents off the device. That is a requirement.
<smagoun> Anyone willing to convince me?
<rustyl_> i still need to read more about the protocol
<davidm> Again, I'm just doing the pm job here, making sure to have the right people at the meeting.
<bspencer> googling...
<rustyl_> is it really just media file specific?
<smagoun> rustyl_: I don't know, but that is my concern.
<rustyl_> I think we have a potential to share various types of application data
<rustyl_> it's just that today we know about videos/photos/music/pdf etc
<rustyl_> if mta is really just transfering files, then it seems like we could make it work
<rustyl_> what was that URL for the protocol?
<bspencer> interesting:  Most MTP-compatible devices do not appear through drive letter assignment in Windows Explorer, instead they will appear as "devices" in Windows Explorer. 
<rustyl_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_Transfer_Protocol
<bspencer> right
<lool> libmtp has a list of devices for which "file transfer" is support; I guess this means one can transfer files
<lool> smagoun: ^
<davidm> rustyl, I noticed that with a camera I plugged into my Linux desktop, some of my software saw it and enabled me to download stuff from the camera but it was not shown on the desktop like HD appear.
<bspencer> lool, howdy.  ... just couldn't shut the laptop lid?
<rustyl_> if we can transfer any type of file, then we can most likely shoehorn a solution out of this
<rustyl_> the bigest open is around the client side, not the host side
<lool> bspencer: It's my desktop, I can't close any lid; I'll simply throw away the lcd at the bottom
<davidm> It seems to have a misc file type and you can extend the types also.
<rustyl_> with any luck, we can write a user space USB driver for the client side to implement the protocol
<agoliveira> Just jumping in to remind you that there's a wiki page with the last meeting's topics and data.
<smagoun> "Additional confusion is created by the fact that Windows Explorer treats MTP devices somewhat like a file system, except without an assigned drive letter, making it impossible for other applications to access the data directly" (from Wikipedia)
<smagoun> That sounds....limiting
<lool> http://www.wentnet.com/projects/xnjb/screenshots/data-tab.png <- referenced from mtp website
<rustyl_> smagoun, why does that sound limiting?  if you have enough information/control to expose a filesystem interface on the host side, then it seems like we would have everything we need.  or... am i missing a big concept?
<davidm> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded/UsbClientMeeting
<davidm> http://kryten.incognitus.net/mootbot/meetings/ubuntu-mobile.20071211_1702.html
<davidm> For reference purposes the URL's above from last meeting
<smagoun> rustyl_: With MTP there *isn't* a filesystem on the host side. Right?
<rustyl_> smagoun, yea, it was my understanding that windows was just creating a virtual filesystem interface out of the information available via MTP
<rustyl_> so users could still have their familiar folder/file exploring interface
<smagoun> rustyl_: I think that's only accessible via Windows Explorer though - the Wikipedia article implies that an arbitrary app like Word can't see the contents of the MTP-enabled device.
<rustyl_> makes sense
<smagoun> There are workarounds to that problem, to be sure (drag stuff to the HD before opening). Workarounds aren't always obvious to users though.
<rustyl_> yea, if MS did a good job, then any applications would see the filesystem interface.  I see your point
<rustyl_> just like all linux apps can see sysfs mounted on /sys
<rustyl_> and not just some gnome file explorer application
<smagoun> exactly
<smagoun> (of course, what human user knows to look in /sys for anything :)
<rustyl_> i was just seeing it as a plus that if anyone could make this thing look like a filesystem, then we could pretty much implement all the use cases of shared application data that we currently know about
<smagoun> I agree 100%, that would make things much easier for everyone
<rustyl_> so we have all these potential paths to walk down, and on the Intel side a couple of guys are wondering down the path of a simple vfat mount
<rustyl_> but we need to explore some other paths with limited resources
<bspencer> fat32 first, ptp next.  Given the resources.  Probably start looking in Feb/March at PTP if I were to guess.
<rustyl_> it looks to me like mtp is the best path to explore 
<rustyl_> it might very well lead to a tar pit, but it seem promising enough from my viewpoint
<smagoun> It'll be a good 80% solution
<rustyl_> how do others feel... are we being unfair about the difficulties in a samba mount type solution?
<smagoun> (mtp/ptp that is)
<rustyl_> for mtp/ptp, we really need to understand how the implementation would work
<rustyl_> for example, do we need to have coordination for access to the shared files?
<rustyl_> do we have the same potential corruption issues that the mass-storage path leads us too?
<davidm> bspencer, if the vfat was a translation layer on ext3 or something that would be OK but splitting a small file system into smaller chunks not so good.
<rustyl_> in order to make the mass-storage solution share access to the data, i am guessing that we really need a user space usb driver
<bspencer> davidm, yes.  any idea how to create a translation layer?  
<rustyl_> i say that because the access needs to happen from the top of the virtual filesystem
<davidm> Me,  no I'm not a filesystem guy but there are emulators out there that do it.
<rustyl_> for host usb, you can do amazing things in a user space driver
<smagoun> bspencer: I think you create a USB mass storage driver that exposes itself as a FAT block device, and has a translator that reads/writes to the underlying FS.
<rustyl_> i'm just not positive if we have those same options for client stuff
<rustyl_> smagoun, and if that driver was in user space then it would be a hell of a lot easier
<rustyl_> we could at least lock the file
<smagoun> rustyl_: I believe it can be 100% userspace
<rustyl_> hmm... who is THE guy/gal for usb client stuff?  for all linux?  who should we be talking with?
<davidm> in the Linux community?
<davidm> or Intel?
<rustyl_> maybe Greg KH can give us a pointer
<rustyl_> linux community
<bspencer> earth
<davidm> Yea, I'd say Greg KH is the smartest person about USB in the Linux community that I know.
<rustyl_> in general, were is most of the brain trust on this subsystem
<rustyl_> it's just that the client side of USB has a lot less interest
<rustyl_> at least we are at a point where someone could start experimenting with a CB system
<smagoun> Have the embedded guys (handhelds.org, openembedded, montavista, etc) solved this problem for us?
<davidm> smagoun, I have no idea
<rustyl_> not that i have seen, but sometimes these guys work in their own trees that are not found so easy from google
<rustyl_> the problem is that truely embedded devices tend to be a lot more limited
<rustyl_> so sharing with running apps isn't that big a deal.  Concepts like booting into a sync mode make a lot more sense
<smagoun> The linux-usb-devel ML seems to be quite active: https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/linux-usb-devel
<smagoun> rustyl_: Since Intel's doing the work, do you have time to ask there?
<smagoun> MARC archive of that list, since sf.net is miserably slow: http://marc.info/?l=linux-usb-devel&r=1&w=2
<rustyl_> if we look into it then i don't expect to see much till after the new year
<smagoun> right, we're pretty well booked until the new year too.
<rustyl_> http://www.linux-usb.org/gadget/ ... there is a blurb in the "Upper Layers" section that sound promising.  It pretty much says that you can implement the upper layers of the protocol stack in user mode just like you can for the host side 
<rustyl_> How about this... we can commit to starting some exploritory work on this in mid january
<rustyl_> with any luck, we could have some hard data / working prototype code to present/demonstrate at the sprint in Oregon
<davidm> That would be great rustyl_
<davidm> Would solve issues for smagoun's team and mine.
<smagoun> rustyl_: that would be great
<rustyl_> bspencer, thoughts? I was thinking having alek_desktop own this.  You think this would kill something else?
<bspencer> nothing I'm doing :)
<rustyl_> rob__, rob ... you listening to this?
<bspencer> frank could assist if needed a little
<rustyl_> yea, lets go with this
<rustyl_> bspencer, and myself can chat off-line with alek_desktop 
<davidm> rustyl_, do you have your logging on?  If not I can capture the screen and mail it to you if you like.
<rustyl_> and expect some related chat on this channel from time to time
<rustyl_> no, i don't have logging on.  I guess we forgot to startup the meeting bot
<bspencer> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 18:48. The chair is bspencer.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<bspencer> [topic] Summary of USB Client discussion.  Friday Dec 14, 2007
<MootBot> New Topic:  Summary of USB Client discussion.  Friday Dec 14, 2007 
<bspencer> [idea] bspencer, rustyl, alek to investigate USB client strategies including MTP and ext->vfat translation
<MootBot> IDEA received:  bspencer, rustyl, alek to investigate USB client strategies including MTP and ext->vfat translation 
<bspencer> http://www.linux-usb.org/gadget/
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://www.linux-usb.org/gadget/ 
<bspencer>  http://marc.info/?l=linux-usb-devel&r=1&w=2
<bspencer>  http://marc.info/?l=linux-usb-devel&r=1&w=2
<bspencer> oopes
<bspencer> http://www.wentnet.com/projects/xnjb/screenshots/data-tab.png
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://www.wentnet.com/projects/xnjb/screenshots/data-tab.png 
<bspencer> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_Transfer_Protocol
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_Transfer_Protocol 
<bspencer> .
<bspencer> ok.  so end meeting now?
<smagoun> There is a vfat translation layer in block-vvfat.c, which is included in the qemu emulator: http://fabrice.bellard.free.fr/qemu/
<bspencer> http://fabrice.bellard.free.fr/qemu/
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://fabrice.bellard.free.fr/qemu/ 
<bspencer> [idea] There is a vfat translation layer in block-vvfat.c, which is included in the qemu emulator: http://fabrice.bellard.free.fr/qemu/
<MootBot> IDEA received:  There is a vfat translation layer in block-vvfat.c, which is included in the qemu emulator: http://fabrice.bellard.free.fr/qemu/ 
<bspencer> .
<bspencer> good discussion.  Thakns guys
<davidm> bspencer, don't forget to #endmeeting
<bspencer> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 18:52.
<davidm> I'll send you the URL to the log
<bspencer> k
<davidm> Sent 
<ToddBrandt> asac: you online?
<asac> yeah
 * asac is the hero who works in his holidays 
<ToddBrandt> asac: do you have any idea how to get rid of the white background that shows up for the nm-applet in hilson desktop?
 * ToddBrandt commends asac
<ToddBrandt> raji here is working on it and has come up with some potential solutions and I've seen similar things with the brightness and volume applets
<ToddBrandt> but I was hoping you may have some insight
<ToddBrandt> The volume and brightness applets were pulled from gnome-media and gnome-power-manager respectively
<ToddBrandt> both used libbonobo and their objects were based on the PanelApplet class
<asac> ToddBrandt: you mean the icon in the tray?
<ToddBrandt> asac: yea
<ToddBrandt> both initially shows up with white backgrounds
<asac> maybe its not transparent?
<asac> (the image itseflf(=
<ToddBrandt> hmm
<asac> oops
<asac> hmm i doubt it is ... there is no white background here on gnome panel
<ToddBrandt> good point, I don't think I've specificaly looked at the nm-applet images, however the brightness and volume ones were and produced the same behavior
<asac> how did you fix them?
<ToddBrandt> asac: I checked, they're transparent
<asac> changing the background color of the gnome panel to purple shows that there is no issue with the icons in general
<asac> so it must be something with your tray implementation
<ToddBrandt> asac: I fixed then by removing the PanelApplet as a parent and replacing it with GtkButton
<ToddBrandt> I think the hildon-desktop uses some of the GtkButton member fields or functions
<asac> which part of hildon implements the tray? the marquee?
<ToddBrandt> Raji basically did the same thing, and it's working somewhat (she's not finished yet), but the process if much harder with nm-applet because not only does it use a whole different line of GtkObjects, it even invents a new one: EggTrayIcon
<ToddBrandt> hildon-desktop, that's where the marquee and status bar are created and populated with libraries
<ToddBrandt> I've looked at the source and it seems interested in recieving a GtkButton object from any of the plugins it pulls in
<ToddBrandt> and the images have to be contained in the GtkButton object, using gtk_container_add
<ToddBrandt> brb, need caffiene
<ToddBrandt> asac: does any of that make sense? I think nm-applet is !@$# awesome but it just has this one tiny little flaw where it doesn't play nice with Hildon Desktop (or the other way around, Hildon Desktop has a major flaw and doesn't play nice with anything other than its own stuff)
<ToddBrandt> I'd hate to have to carve up the code for such a small detail but it's coming to that
<asac> ToddBrandt: yes i guess its a hildon bug
<asac> what would it take to fix the tray for real=
<asac> hacking the nm-applet to use a GtkButton isn't nice as well ... who knows what happens on all other desktops then :)
<ToddBrandt> hmm, yea, I guess we're at this point where it might be smart to see how hard it would be to just get hildon-desktop to play nice
<asac> right ... i mean in the long run you want to be able to install other apps that use the tray
<ToddBrandt> asac: yea, that's where the wall is, either we make a configuration that leaves everything else intact, or we fork it, and the first solution is looking harder and harder
<asac> and they should work as well
<asac> so its good that this popped up with a default component in the UME stack
<ToddBrandt> I suppose ;) I would have much preferred everything to magically work ;)
<asac> ToddBrandt: why is the configuration --with-tray-in-gtk-button a problem?
<ToddBrandt> I'm new to earth apparantly
<asac> hehe
<ToddBrandt> asac: it's not, but I've looked at the latest patch from Raji and it's 22k, so that's lots of stuff to switch around with a configuration option
<ToddBrandt> she's already added a --enable-buildlib option which builds it as a library, and that works with very little modification
<ToddBrandt> we just wanted to pack all of this into a single patch, I think we'll break them into parts for now
<asac> a single patch for nm-applet?
<asac> please break them up ... you have to maintain them over time after all
<ToddBrandt> yea, I figured with both it would have been tiny still, but it's growing larger and larger
<asac> yes, but keep issues addressed seperate so you can back them out easily
<ToddBrandt> good call
<asac> if you need help or want anything included in the nm-applet package of ubuntu just let me know
<asac> as long as it doesn't break normal desktops i am fine to have them as a temporary solution here
<ToddBrandt> ok, cool, thanks
#ubuntu-mobile 2007-12-15
<khashmeshab> hello, can anybody help me please?
<khashmeshab> can I install ubuntu linux mobile or any other linux distros on a Sony-Ericsson P990i?
<Mithrandir> no idea about other linux distros, but Ubuntu Mobile, no.
<khashmeshab> heh, but can you review this video? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyVJgw-H5l8&feature=bz303
<Mithrandir> I don't have flash installed, so no.
<khashmeshab> it was fake! sorry. thanks for your assistance
#ubuntu-mobile 2007-12-16
<InSearchOf> davidm, whats up? arent you on vacation?
#ubuntu-mobile 2008-12-08
<bolet75> a
<ian_brasil> what is the best way to listen in remotely to UDS
<dijenerate> hi all
<dijenerate> anyone at home?
<Hobbsee> most of them are at a developers summit, so probably not
<dijenerate> damn
<dijenerate> is there anyone left who can help with ubuntu-mobile and powernow/fglrx conflict
<dijenerate> I guess not
<Hobbsee> what conflict?
<dijenerate> I can't the powernow-k8 module while running fglrx drivers or even opensource ati or radeon drivers without the system's stability going to hell
<dijenerate> endless segfaults
<Hobbsee> ah.  can't help you there
<dijenerate> on 2.6.27-7 and 2.6.27-9 generic kernels
<dijenerate> even on -10 from the proposed servers
<dijenerate> damn
<dijenerate> I wish ATi would learn how to make a damn video card for once
<dijenerate> it's not that hard... matrox does it
<dijenerate> and so does intel
<dijenerate> and they don't know what they're doing when it comes to 3D
 * Hobbsee waves to cprov
<NCommander> hey Hobbsee
<mterry> UDS is using this room now, FYI
<mterry> UDS gobby doc is 'mobile-applications'
#ubuntu-mobile 2008-12-09
<ian_brasil> j #uds
<playya> is this a proposal or a typo ian_brasil ?
<ian_brasil> playya its a typo 
<playya> ok
<playya> argh. quiver isn't gpled :(
<heret1c> 'lo :)
<heret1c> have an iddue w. gmobilemedia/serialUSB/permissions. groups. wozzit.
<heret1c> issue
<heret1c> anyone here?
<playya> heret1c, not really. i think they're on there way to UDS
#ubuntu-mobile 2008-12-10
<ogra_> NCommander, https://launchpad.net/usb-imagewriter
<ogra_> PPA package in https://launchpad.net/~ogra/+archive
<NCommander> ogra_, what am I supposed to do with this?
<davidm> http://www.lightninglab.org/papers/WirelessPower/index.html
<davidm> Interesting
<playya_> ogra_, are you talking about tablets(like n800) or like q1
#ubuntu-mobile 2008-12-11
<ogra_> playya_, i was mainly talking about netbooks ;)
<playya_> ok
<playya_> so no arm or sth else?
<playya_> not the real tiny devices?
<ogra_> MID might happen later 
<ogra_> currently all focus s on ubuntu-desktop and ubuntu-server 
<ogra_> see the gobby document 
<playya_> ok
<playya_> i can see it
<playya_> shouldn't it be possible to create an bootable usbstick on the device with the parts need for this specific device?
<playya_> you can identify the hardware by ther vendor IDs
<playya_> the cpu,too
 * ogra_ points to http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-jaunty/2008-12-12/ (9:45 session)
<ogra_> currently we'll just build kernel less images as a first shot
<ogra_> but the tool being discussed on friday should be able to generate specific images
<playya_> missed it
<ogra_> thats an upcoming discussion :)
<ogra_> on friday
<playya_> ok. and it is posiible to hear it
<ogra_> all we decided now was that we will build generic kernel less images and have a tool that dumps a kernel image in place based on a list
<ogra_> sure, all sessions should be available live via voip
<king> Is UME going to run on Nokia N810 anytime soon?
<playya_> i think someone already has a running version using the maemo kernel
<king> Anyone having further information?
<playya_> matchbox keyboard isn't really finger friendly imho
<playya_> i'm the only one who is listening to you
<playya_> and there was a video?
<playya_> about which programming language you are talking and yes Qt sucks?
<playya_> ogra, is someone cleaning the floor?
<ogra> playya_, pyqt 
<ogra> and no, nobody is cleaning the floor here, does it sound like that ? 
<playya_> yes.
<playya_> i first thought of c++ but was confused by str
<playya_> i can't see any video :(
<ogra> it's recorded, not streamed
<playya_> oh ok
<playya_> gesundheit
<StevenK> playya_: :-)
<playya_> i have a freeruner btw.
<playya_> just saw your device list
<playya_> libjana has a worldmap which might be usable on small devices
<playya_> just an idea if someone reads this: why not build a UI which fetches all config file for the installed packages and saves them in a big tar ball?
<playya_> you can configure these packages depending on which packages are installed and maybe can save them in a generic configuration
<StevenK> playya_: Join #uds-mobile, that's on the projector in the room
<playya_> oh ok
<playya_> i missed the beginning. do you want a have a partition where you save data in ~ or the config files?
<playya_> i don't want to disturb you discussion ;)
<ogra> playya_, its actually only about a recovery partition like preinstalled windows systems have 
<playya_> ok
<playya_> thats always the first partition i remove
<ogra> somehow the discussion drifts away into the system snapshot area all the time :)
<playya_> thats what i want. a system snapshot
<playya_> suse has sth like this
<playya_> i didn't test it but jan told me
#ubuntu-mobile 2008-12-12
<playya_> the mic is still online if you don't want to have it
<ogra> we do :)
<ogra> (private meetings are tagged as private in the schedule)
<playya_> i just heart someone saying "turn off" ...
<ogra> no, it was turn on the cam again so it starts a fresh recording :)
<playya_> i don't want to get killed
<playya_> is a up to date version of hildon-glade available?
<MeniShevitz> hey, n00b here trying to install on a Gigabyte U60 UMPC and not having a clue!
<MeniShevitz> is there a good step by step guide?
<playya_> i don't think so.
<playya_> the devs are currently all in moutain view an UDS
<playya_> if you wait until 15:00 utc you can ask them
<MeniShevitz> meh. back to fidgeting then, thanks. will do
<playya_> argh.
<playya_> just woke up :(
<Sundar> trying my madien MIC target, does not like my fset name. this is for mccaslin-lpia-ubuntu-hardy-ppa . "Feature set full-mobile-stack-with-proprietary does not exist" yelp!
#ubuntu-mobile 2008-12-13
<playya_> someone in mobile still has loaded the snd_pcsp module
<ogra_> playya_, i think that would be StevenK ... he likes to beep along
<playya_> thats one of the first things i do on a fresh install: blacklist it
<StevenK> "Meh"
<playya_> moo
<playya_> no gleu
<playya_> glue
<StevenK> Haha
<Hobbsee> duct tape?
<playya_> no. little ear plugs
<ogra_> StevenK, Hobbsee https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ltspfs/+bug/306993 do your duty !
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 306993 in ltspfs "Please sync ltspfs 0.5.7-1 (main) from Debian experimental (main)." [Wishlist,New]
<Hobbsee> ogra_: only if i can delegate my crew duties for the day to you.
 * NCommander can see Hobbsee holding a huge roll of duct tape ...
<Hobbsee> ogra_: thanks in advance!
<Hobbsee> deal taken ;P
<ogra_> Hobbsee, you can do that tomorrow between 2pm and 10 :) 
<ogra_> (while i'm in the air)
<playya_> any conclusions on the backup partition thingy yesterday?
<playya_> the gobby doc doesn't say much
<ogra_> not relly
<ogra_> *really
<ogra_> we'll revisit it in an online discussion i guess
<playya> will it be a backup partition or a snapshot of the system ?
<ogra_> it will be a recovery partition created optionally at system install
<ogra_> neither backup nor snapshot
<ogra_> it will get the system back to virgin state 
<cprov> StevenK: the recovered source is in https://devpad.canonical.com/~cprov/
<playya> i thought of a  snapshot where you can say: i want this state saved with all config files.
<playya> and maybe sone parts generic so you can change between [kx]{0-1}ubuntu
<cprov> StevenK: there we go -> https://dogfood.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux-restricted-modules-lpia
<Caglar> hi
<Caglar> i wanna ask something
<Caglar> my english is not good(sorry for it)
<Caglar> which devices can run ubuntu mobile?
<playya> do you mean a netbook or a smaller device?
<Caglar> i mean PDA
<Caglar> or like PDS
<Caglar> PDA*
<playya> can't find the list of devices :(
<Caglar> how can i try
<playya> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ARM/DeviceSupport. nit much yet
<playya> you may come back tomtorrow because most of the defs are on there way to the hotel
<Caglar> :/ i'm in Turkey and MID's r very expensive
<playya> hehe thats right
<playya> i know it works on a samsung q1 ultra
<ogra> playya, we are all travelling tomorrow ... and currently in the wrap upn session
<playya> but this might be a little big bigger an more expensive
<playya> oh really?
<ogra> will likely be quiet in here until monday
<Caglar> i will buy a netbook
<Caglar> and use my ubuntu on it
<playya> a netbook or a MID?
<Caglar> MID's r expensive but netbooks cheaper
<Caglar> i think eee pc or wind book is the best way to ilemob
<Caglar> best way to mobile ubuntu
<Caglar> thankx playya 
<Caglar> good night for me:D
<playya> i'm just installing it on my eee but ok
<playya> i suggest nobody to install umpc on a eee 701 even it is possible.
#ubuntu-mobile 2008-12-14
<NCommander> hola all
<playya_> hi
<playya_> NCommander, do you know if there are hildon-glade files in the repos?
<NCommander> I don't know offhand
<playya_> i want to rewrite ubiquity with an hildon interface
<playya_> ubiquity-gtk is useless on my eee 701
#ubuntu-mobile 2009-12-07
<lool> njpatel: w00t
<lool> njpatel: there's this bug which I can't figure out what to do with https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/netbook-launcher/+bug/441537
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 441537 in netbook-launcher "netbook-launcher crashed with SIGSEGV in strlen()" [Medium,In progress]
<lool> njpatel: Do you have any clue about that one?
<njpatel> lool: (sorry was on call) looks like an issue in liblauncher (launcher-folder-bookmarks.c)
<lool> njpatel: is this still open upstream?
<njpatel> lool: I'm not sure, ideally we'd need the reporters .gtk-bookmarks to tell
<lool> StevenK: Just FYI, apparently rickspencer3 expected you to be working on the UNR -> UNE rename
<lool> We discussed that on #ubuntu-desktop, and apparently nothing related to UNE/UNR is important for A1
<lool> njpatel: The thing is that this is fix committed
<lool> njpatel: on the upstream tasks
<lool> I've subed ubuntu-unr and unassigned me until the upstream status is clarified
<njpatel> lool: I'll need to look into it when I have some time, I can't remember it :(
<lool> njpatel: that's ok; it's been assigned to me for a long time, but I think it's erroneously fix committed 
<lool> either it's fix released or confirmed, but I don't think the fix is just waiting in bzr
#ubuntu-mobile 2009-12-08
<persia> Oops.  glitch in meeting communications.  Wiki page is open for agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2009/20091208
<JamieBennett> persia: workitems link is wrong
<JamieBennett> /me goes to fix it
<persia> JamieBennett: Thanks.
 * persia just did a cut & paste of the 20091201 agenda
<JamieBennett> done and action items added
<JamieBennett> sorry, agenda ites
<JamieBennett> items
<JamieBennett> man my typing today
<persia> I don't see other agenda items.  DId you save?
<JamieBennett> apparently not, redone them now
<persia> Um.  Are those standing items?  I'm fairly certain they aren't action items (those being stuff that people are tasked with in the course of the meeting)
<persia> I thought that the workitems sheet replaced spec review.  Sponsoring statistics are available from a variety of sources.  I'm not sure about ARM image status, although I'd expect it to be reflected in workitems.
<ogra> yup
<persia> What?  Now I'm confused.
<persia> So, there were three new "Action Items" entered: spec review, ARM images, Sponsoring.
<ogra> arm is the only thing we do in mobile nowadays
<ogra> spec review should be obsoleted by the workitem sheet
<persia> Well, depends on how one defines "Mobile", but let's set that aside for now.
<persia> Right.
<persia> And sponsoring has the various statistics pages.
<persia> So I think it's only ARM images that need to remain a standing item.
<ogra> the mobile team in lucid *only* works on arm stuff ... 
<ogra> we dont have any non arm items this release
<ogra> (i'm still for renaming the team but well :) )
<ogra> anyway
<ogra> so spec review should go, we do that through the workitem sheet
<ogra> arm image is a standing topic
<persia> RIght.
 * persia fixes the agenda.
<ogra> for sponsoring the idea was that everyone reports the bugnumbers he closed through sponsoring ...
<ogra> given that these were only a few back when we started that we could do it in meeting
<ogra> i fthe amount raises we should have some kind of overview page
<persia> Well, there are various overview pages available, for various slices of sponsors.
<persia> But currently there's no good way to capture a combination of direct sponsored uploads, reviewed new packages, and applied branches.
<persia> dholbach's sponsoring statistics pages probably get closest to accurate.
<ogra> well, when i started that i just wanted to have an overview by team member 
<ogra> since david asked me for exactly that
<ian_brasil> any idea how long it takes to build Ubuntu from source on X86?
<ian_brasil> and how long natively on arm
<persia> THe entire archive?
<persia> I don't know how long it would take for x86.  For armel, it took about three months to bootstrap jaunty, but some of that was delays to work around build failures (that wouldn't happen again).
<persia> Of course, the total time depends on the number of parallel build machines, the specs of the build machines, etc.  I don't believe there currently exist statistics for a complete archive rebuild on a per-architecture basis.
<ian_brasil> persia, thanks
<persia> ian_brasil: By the way, are you still the best reporting contact for Mobile (from https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Teams) ?
<ian_brasil> persia, i have not done any reporting for a while..if someone wants to step up that is fine with me
<persia> JamieBennett: You want to take over that role?
<JamieBennett> persia: let me look at it after the meeting but I suspect that will be fine
<persia> JamieBennett: OK.  Just get the procedures from ian_brasil (I don't know them off-hand), and update that wiki page.
<JamieBennett> OK
<Il__Matteo> hi everybody! anyone reading? 
<persia> Il__Matteo: lots of people.
<JamieBennett> ian_brasil: so it just a matter of reporting what the team are doing once a month on a wiki page?
<Il__Matteo> great. Here's my problem. I tried to mount Ubuntu Mobile onto my chinaphone Cesim A007. After Imagewriter finished writing to device, i unplugged the mobile and tried to turn it on. Nothing happened. I've kept on trying, and still nothing happens. It doesn't turn on!!! It's not even recognized as a USB device
<ian_brasil> JamieBennett, more or less
<JamieBennett> anything else?
<persia> Il__Matteo: You used imagewriter to directly write to the device flash?
<JamieBennett> ouch
<Il__Matteo> persia, yes, onto the mobile phone
<ian_brasil> JamieBennett, let me dig out the links
<JamieBennett> thanks
<JamieBennett> Il__Matteo: The image is an install image meant for cdrom/usb/cf card
<Il__Matteo> JamieBennett, so, what did i have to do? put on cdrom, boot from that cdrom and then install onto mobile?
<persia> Il__Matteo: The images are intended to be flashed to USB or SD, and the device booted from that.  I don't know that the use case of direct flashing to a device has ever previously been tested.
<persia> Il__Matteo: Boot the device from the USB/CD/SD
<ian_brasil> JamieBennett, the main page is here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BuildingCommunity/TeamReporting
<ian_brasil> followed by https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TeamReports
<Il__Matteo> persia, my mobile has got a 8gb microsd, indeed
<ian_brasil> what i did was follow the daily meetings and the summaries sent to the mobile lists
<ian_brasil> and add them to the template page
<Il__Matteo> the big trouble is that now it looks like completely dead!!! :Â°Â°Â°Â°
<ian_brasil> then add that page to the main reporting page each month
<ian_brasil> it is not much work if you do it like that
<JamieBennett> ian_brasil: seems like not many teams are using it?
<persia> Il__Matteo: Do you have a copy of the original software?  You may have to force a flash to get it to work (but with software USB gadget, that might mean finding some other way to access the chip)
<JamieBennett> (apart from loco's)
<Il__Matteo> persia, no backup copy of the original software. So let's see whether i have understood: i need to force the mobile's flash in order to make Ubuntu work?
<persia> JamieBennett: There's constant calls to use it, but few teams actually report anything, unfortunately.
<JamieBennett> persia: so it is of value to do this?
<persia> Il__Matteo: No, but you need to be able to boot your device from SD or CD or USB, and your device needs to be supported by the Ubuntu kernel (or you need to have constructed and prepared a special kernel).
<ian_brasil> JamieBennett, this is the page you need to add the reports to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TeamReports
<persia> JamieBennett: Immensely.  It's the official primary way in which Ubuntu communicates activities to everyone.  When teams don't participate, people have to chase mailing lists, wiki updates, bugs, IRC logs (often in multiple channels), and many other sources to have any idea what is happening.
<ian_brasil> most teams write a report..certainly foundations, kde and tech board
<Il__Matteo> persia, do you see any opportunity to restore my device? :Â° did i murder it once and forever?
<ian_brasil> JamieBennett, it is also a great way to keep yourself informed about what is happening
<persia> Il__Matteo: I don't know anything about your specific device, so don't have clear advice.  Some of my devices have multiple flash areas, so I don't have to overwrite the bootloader when I install images.  Other of my devices have hardware DIP switches that allow me to use a bootloader from an SD card.  You need to read the docs on your device to find a mechanism for restoration.
<persia> Il__Matteo: Your best source is probably a device-specific forum.  I'd recommend searching for "bricked China Phone 007".
<ian_brasil> i really liked doing it for this reason..and my bad i let it slip off my plate
<JamieBennett> ian_brasil: I see only Xubuntu reporting there (team distro wise) why are others not doing it? (this is what worries me, is there a need for this? if so why aren't the other teams doing it?)
<JamieBennett> (I'm not against doing it though)
<ian_brasil> JamieBennett, it picks up as the cycle moves towards release
<ian_brasil> it is also a good way to get info included on the fridge and UWN
<persia> JamieBennett: Different teams do it and drop it, mostly depending on how often they get harassed by external parties.
<Il__Matteo> persia, the documentation is very poor and i haven't find a specific forum yet. thanks anyway, i guess i threw 140â¬ down the drain :D
<ian_brasil> to raise the mobile profile a bit more
<JamieBennett> I'll try it and see how it goes then.
<Il__Matteo> bye everybody
<ian_brasil> JamieBennett, if you need anything ping me ok
<persia> Il__Matteo: Good luck on getting your phone working again.  If you can get it up, come back, and we can help see if you can get Ubuntu running on it.
<JamieBennett> thanks
<persia> Note that Ubuntu doesn't make a good phone, so you won't be able to make calls or anything.
<robertjw> On loading UNR 9.04 on a Classmate Convertible, I notice that the touch screen is not supported.
<robertjw> The touch driver is available from the vendor.
<robertjw> Any thoughts about adding it to UNR?
<robertjw> see driver sources at:  http://www.eturbotouch.com.tw/english/s_download_center.asp
#ubuntu-mobile 2009-12-09
<robertjw> On loading UNR 9.04 on a Classmate Convertible, I notice that the touch screen is not supported.  Is anyone working on adding support?
<Fizix> Has anyone mounted Ubuntu Mobile to a Motorola Droid?
<GrueMaster> Ubuntu mobile is currently x86 based, while the Motorola droid is omap armv7 based.  completely different processor architectures.
#ubuntu-mobile 2009-12-11
<ercani> hi
<ercani> ubuntu works on MIPS ?
<lool> ercani: https://launchpad.net/builders is what we build
<ercani> ok
<lool> ercani: But since we inherit most sources from Debian which has a mips port, it would in theory be possible to build ubuntu for mips/mipsel debian arches
<ercani> I see
<ercani> I have 2 devices
<ercani> one is samsung s3c2450, another is sirf atlas prima cpu
<ercani> I want to port ubuntu mid edition
<ercani> those have GPS, bluetooth, sd card slot and audio video input
<ercani> is it possible to build it for above devices ?
<ercani> lool: any idea ?
<ercani> anyway
<ercani> anyone alive ?
<asac> yeah
<asac> we are still alone here ;)
<rzr> not my side
#ubuntu-mobile 2009-12-12
<ercani> hi
