#ubuntu-manual 2010-02-01
<nisshh> :q
<nisshh> :q
<camil> Hi all, just geard of this project, was wondering what format will be used to write the content of the manual?
<jmburgess> camil: we are using latex
<jmburgess> It is pretty easy to learn, check out the wiki for more information
<camil> jmburgess: OK yes I used LaTeX many years ago, but then switched to XML, found it easier to write without mixing with style. All the more in a collaborative environment...
<camil> jmburgess: as a side note I was documentation project manager at Mandriva Linux for years ;-)
<jmburgess> camil: Very cool! yeah we use latex because it can make very pretty docs and we have set it up so almost all the formating except for the stuff you need to do such as bolding text, putting things in terminal boxes, etc is in a separte file
<camil> jmburgess: ok good
<jmburgess> yeah feel free to pull the bzr tree and look around, you will see it is all pretty well separated
<camil> jmburgess: any reason why LaTeX and not XML DocBook for example?
<jmburgess> camil: ummm that was what he had expertise in, but not particularly
<camil> ok
<camil> I hope it will not frighten newcomers
<jmburgess> i mean we make it pretty darn easy
<camil> good that's important
<jmburgess> yep
<jmburgess> do you have any particular interest that you want to help out in
<camil> I could have proposed something for XML, but I'm far too busy to offer time...
<jmburgess> understandable
<camil> jmburgess: my company is now developping an open source XML CMS aimed at technical documentation, with a WYSIWYG Web editor. And I would have been glad to help you set it up or even host it for you.
<jmburgess> wow that is very cool, are you guys open sourcing it?
<camil> jmburgess: yes, although the web editor is free only for open source projects.
<jmburgess> wow that sounds awesome
<camil> jmburgess: calenco.com
<pererik87> How are things tagging along. anyone need any help? with anything?
#ubuntu-manual 2010-02-02
<thorwil> vish: how do you feel about humphreybc's request for a alpha release title page?
 * vish checks mail
<vish> thorwil: hmm? so the name needs to be changed? in the existing title page?
<thorwil> vish: that would be the quick solution. plus dropping the to right corner, as the version number is in the title now
<vish> thorwil: we could just leave it as "Getting started with Ubuntu" ;)  if we drop the top corner , then the right side would be empty :(
<thorwil> vish: aside of things already mentioned, another argument against the lynx is that we don't know what will come next. we can't rely on reasonable animals to create a series of covers instead of one-shots
<vish> thorwil: IMO , the page would need to be redesigned to the new title , which we can take up for later.. for now we just shorten the name
<thorwil> the jackalope would have been unacceptable given our desired tone and message
<vish> thorwil: yes , i agree with you about the animal.. i have been saying this from day one , but _they_ insist on using the lynx , this time we have a good lynx , next time another animal are we sure we would be around for that? , then the whole page needs to be redone...  workaround can be using the COC if animal isnt ready ;p
<thorwil> vish: having the lynx for the alpha version might make it harder to argue against keeping it later on
<vish> i didnt understand ^ ?
<vish> thorwil: you recommend , we dont use the lynx? , but we cant get away with that ;p
<thorwil> vish: i'm not sure we can't. proposing something for alpha release without might help with getting people used to the idea
<vish> thorwil: one thing we can say is we already used the lynx for alpha , we can use a better design for the final release ;)
<thorwil> vish: ok then, so will you prepare a quick edit of your design with the new title? i will not care about any specifics there, unless you ask me
<godbyk> Do you want to replace the existing svg or create a new one?
<godbyk> If it's under a different file name, we can update the Makefile to generate the new cover page in the PDF.
<vish> hmm , sure
<vish> godbyk: I'd just , add a new file
<godbyk> (otherwise, replacing the existing filename will cause the cover page to be automatically regenerated)
<vish> godbyk: or , how do you prefer it?
<godbyk> Makes no difference to me.
<godbyk> It's an easy one-line fix in the Makefile if you want me to point at a new cover page file.
<vish> godbyk: ok.. I'll rename the current one as -Old and update the new one
<godbyk> k
<vish> thorwil: so the first Line would be "Getting Started" and second line "With Ubuntu" ? and there is no need for subtitle , right?
<godbyk> vish: That sounds right, yeah.
<vish> k..
<godbyk> I think the version number follows "Ubuntu", though.
<thorwil> yes
<vish> godbyk: if we do the version number there  , then the top corner is a problem... so for the alpha we leave the version number at the top , and for the final release we do it right
<thorwil> later, for the real design, we should try to get it on one line
<vish> agreed
<godbyk> fair enough.
<thorwil> vish: i really don't think your design needs the corner for balance, but it's your call
<godbyk> if the corner stays in the final design, we may have to add some more padding around the words to make sure it stays within whatever the standard printer margins are.
<vish> godbyk: corner will not stay for final :)
<godbyk> gotcha
<godbyk> at some point we'll have to figure out how to best handle translations for the cover page, too.
<vish> thorwil: i'm more inclined to leave it there , since it pisses you off so much :p
<godbyk> I s'pose that since we've select a title, the text on the cover will be pretty static, and we can manually adjust/create each language's cover page.
<thorwil> vish: this can't touch me. it's a wart on your design, not mine ;)
<vish> hehe ;
<thorwil> godbyk: we will have to
<thorwil> godbyk: but not for alpha, i hope
<godbyk> thorwil: I wouldn't worry about it for alpha.
<godbyk> I've still got some work to do with the translations.
<godbyk> I'm trying to find good typefaces to cover all the scripts that all these languages use.
<godbyk> (I'll be honest: I hadn't even heard of some of these languages before I started looking into this translation stuff!)
#ubuntu-manual 2010-02-03
<wolter> hey guys, do you know of any free hosting site with no ads, good speed, and maybe support for python scripts?
<IlyaHaykinson> free / no ads? that's pretty rare.
<IlyaHaykinson> if you just need a super-small temporary host, i can throw things up on my server. if you need more permanent stuff, probably not...
<wolter> yeah, i would need permanent, so thanks
<wolter> well, could use temporary, but I don't know if my mom would actually afford hosting my site
<wolter> so, thanks for now, but don't worry about it. I'll let you know if I change my mind
<IlyaHaykinson> okie dok
<nisshh> hey, godbyk: i need to ask you a question about latex
<godbyk> nisshh: fire away
<nisshh> cool, well im answering a question on launchpad for the manual
<nisshh> the asker says:
<nisshh> Should latex \labels and \ref tags be added to the document at this stage? If so this should be added to the Style guide. I would take on this task, if it was deemed worthwhile.
<nisshh> what do you reckon?
<godbyk> If the chapter and section headings are relatively stable at this point, then labels and ref tags may be added, yes.
<IlyaHaykinson> i think the headings aren't really stable yet.
<godbyk> For cross-referencing to chapters and sections, they may also want to use the \chaplink{label} and \seclink{label} commands which will pretty things up a bit.
<IlyaHaykinson> i would wait until beta for that
<nisshh> ok got it thanks.
<nisshh> ok, i will tell him that he can add them now but should check and update them during beta.
<godbyk> nisshh: sounds good.
<nisshh> ok,done.
<humphreybc> what's going on everyone
<humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson: ping
<humphreybc> godbyk: ping
<godbyk> humphreybc: pong
<humphreybc> hiya
<humphreybc> i was just thinking
<humphreybc> Ilya's chapter is very long, and he's got a lot of subsubsections under "Getting Online" that might be useful to have in the ToC
<humphreybc> maybe we should change it so that subsubsections are displayed also?
<humphreybc> That will probably make the contents like 5 pages long
#ubuntu-manual 2010-02-04
<godbyk> Hmm.. let's take a look.
<godbyk> http://kevin.godby.org/private/ubuntu-manual/main.pdf
<humphreybc> what do you think?'
<godbyk> Hmm..
<godbyk> I like the subsection names -- they're more in line with answering the 'how do I...?' questions.
<godbyk> I need to reformat the TOC sometime, but I do like the added level of headings.
<humphreybc> yeah
<humphreybc> okay cool
<humphreybc> well when you're ready push through the changes. don't forget to pull my latest revision tho!
<godbyk> (I think they'll be more useful to people than the more generic section headings)
<godbyk> will do.
<godbyk> gah.. merging sucks.
<godbyk> okay, should be pushed now.
<godbyk> hope I didn't hork anyone else's stuff in the merge.
<humphreybc> haha
<humphreybc> nope it looks okay
<humphreybc> wow
<humphreybc> 70 pages now
<humphreybc> I won't be surprised if the final publication is 150 pages
<godbyk> keep in mind we haven't included any screenshots at all yet.
<godbyk> they'll take up a lot of space.
<humphreybc> yup i know
<humphreybc> so maybe even 200 pages
<humphreybc> eek
<humphreybc> so much for 50!
<vish> godbyk: use olive , rather than the terminal , merging is fun with that ;)
<godbyk> heh
<godbyk> nothing is labeled in olve..
<godbyk> the toolbar buttons all look the same, no labels, no tooltips.
<godbyk> I gave up. :-)
<vish> godbyk: yeah , initially it seems a bit weird , but for me it was easier than typing commands in the terminal ;p
<vish> godbyk: but now it does have labels , or maybe because i use text below labels option
<vish> text below icons*
<godbyk> ah, I don't use that option.
<godbyk> and when I hovered the mouse over the toolbar buttons, there were no tool tips.
<vish> yeah , thats bad... :/
<IlyaHaykinson_> ianto: ping
<humphreybc> thorwil: ping
<thorwil> humphreybc: pong
<humphreybc> how's it going?
<humphreybc> I just wanted to let you know that the "Artwork" page of the wiki is now the design team's sandpit. Also, have you been working on a revised title page with the new name?
<thorwil> humphreybc: i asked vish to put the new title on his design. it might already be in place
<humphreybc> cool
<humphreybc> you could probably clean up the artwork page somewhat
<humphreybc> perhaps move all of the previous submissions to a subpage
<thorwil> humphreybc: what's the reasoning behind "Version 0.1 development-release January 2010"
<thorwil> ?
<humphreybc> it's the release of our manual
<humphreybc> 0.3 is the alpha release
<humphreybc> 0.6 is beta, 0.9 is RC and 1.0 is final
<thorwil> humphreybc: it's long and unnecessarily technical
<humphreybc> we could drop the development release part
<thorwil> humphreybc: at least the "development release" should go
<thorwil> heh
<humphreybc> there we go :)
<thorwil> our audience is unlikely to know about the 1.0 scheme, but it is nice to have something that marks pre 1.0 as incomplete
<humphreybc> yeah it's not really for them
<humphreybc> it's for us :)
<humphreybc> that's why it should be small, and it probably doesn't even need to be on the cover
<thorwil> humphreybc: if there will be something like a 1.1, it needs to be indicated on the cover
<humphreybc> i guess we'll just see how we go
<humphreybc> there shouldn't be a 1.1
<humphreybc> in theory
<thorwil> humphreybc: i propose: nothing on the 1.0 cover. a "2nd edition" on a 1.1, if the need arises. and so on
<humphreybc> sounds like a plan
<thorwil> good. i'll put that on my design specification
<thorwil> why does the wiki have to be so  s l o w
<thorwil> vish: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Artwork
<vish> thorwil: neat.. I'll read it fully soonish
<dutchie> godbyk: http://pastebin.com/fdb4b2b
<godbyk> You have to escape the # signs. Use \#
<dutchie> not my change
<dutchie> but I will fix
<godbyk> though if it's a url, you should put it in \url{http://...}
<godbyk> yeah, I've had to fix some things to get it to compile, too.  we should have people run 'make' before committing.
<godbyk> just to make sure everything works first.
<dutchie> I can't even see what file it's in
 * dutchie resorts to grep
<dutchie> wow, up to rev 200
<dutchie> rev 200
<dutchie> r200
<godbyk> looks like security/security.tex
<dutchie> rev 200
<manualbot> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/revision/200 | http://bazaar.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual -r 200
<dutchie> :)
<godbyk> nice
<dutchie> ooh, it connects over ipv6 too
#ubuntu-manual 2010-02-05
<IlyaHaykinson> *sigh*
<IlyaHaykinson> ok, so i have a lot of technical writers who want to help
<IlyaHaykinson> how should i arrange them?
<godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: Are they wanting to write or edit or what?
<godbyk> Did we get authors to fill in the chapters that had gone dormant?
 * thorwil pokes vish 
 * vish ouch , wth! was just tweaking the manual title ;)
<thorwil> :)
<thorwil> vish: i guess i will try to put some example text into my svg layout template to see if it works out
<thorwil> vish: any thoughts on using icons and maybe patterns?
<vish> thorwil: icons , IMO , is not really ideal , i think the way David did with the cursor was good , adding too many icons just seems weird to me
<thorwil> vish: it would have to be balanced carefully. the cursor is good for making it somewhat clear that it's about computers, but doesn't go beyond that
<vish> thorwil: we can incorporate the cursor and add a few waves/ripples at the getting started
<vish> *"Getting started..."
<vish> thorwil: or just use the cursor as he has done , and add a few abstract patterns on the page...
<vish> thorwil: IMO , we dont really need to add icons , more than the icons the cursor is sufficient that the book is about a computer.. ,  OR maybe i havent clearly understood your idea
<thorwil> vish: no, seems your missing a part. it's about the WHY. why read the document? because of things you can accomplish with Ubuntu. so what are those things?
<thorwil> it would of course also be legitimate to use words. just a list
<vish> thorwil: we could rather use words on the title page than icons...   several words and a few words sticking out and being more prominent
<vish> thorwil: then again , we have a title named "Getting started with Ubuntu" which is clear enough what the book is about ;)
<thorwil> yes, What, not Why ;)
<vish> why... ? "To get started " ;p
<thorwil> not to forget that we can't expect readers to have a good idea of what ubuntu is
<thorwil> vish: why as in motivation
<vish> thorwil: how is using the categories icons gonna make it any clearer of what Ubuntu is?
<thorwil> vish: ubuntu is just a means to an end
<thorwil> vish: i expect that the real goal of a reader is not to get started with ubuntu
<vish> thorwil: then what would be the real goal?
<thorwil> vish: but to do one of the mentioned things
<vish> hmm..
<vish> thorwil: i didnt really like David's idea with the icons , it looked rather cheesy to me than classy... :(  but maybe you can do it better :)
<thorwil> of course, there's the aspect of why-not-windows, but the reasons are way to complex to touch them on the title page
<vish> thorwil: to me it seemed like those children's books ;)
<thorwil> vish: that comes down to style
<vish> thorwil: is it ok for the team to not use the lynx in the title page?
<thorwil> vish: nobody complained yet, which makes me suspect nobody really got (to) that part of my spec, yet
<vish> hehe ;p
<vish> thorwil: what are the dimensions to be used?
<vish> of the page*
<thorwil> vish: a4 or letter
<thorwil> a4: 210 x 297 mm
<thorwil> letter: 8Â½ Ã 11 inch or 216 Ã 279 mm
<thorwil> vish: title page should pick up the margins used inside
<vish> k.
<vish> argh! the words run over the lynx :/
<vish> i guess we have to go with one word per line
<thorwil> will .... read .... like ... cpt. .... kirk .... speaks
<vish> godbyk: release version number is ?
<vish> or shall i just mention it as alpha release ?
<vish> thorwil: ^?
<thorwil> vish: "Version 0.d, Month dddd" (with the comma or spacing) may appear on pre-releases
<thorwil> alpha: February 10th, 2010 - Version 0.3
<vish> thorwil: so i'll just change it as feb instead of jan ,is date really needed?
<thorwil> so: "Version 0.3, February 2010" or "Version 0.3    February 2010"
<vish> with the comma looks better..
<thorwil> vish: just the year
<thorwil> vish: this detail may very well look slapped-on, as it's a decidedly temporary thing
<vish> yeah
<ivaldo> Enter text here...ciao
<ivaldo> sto cercando delle informazioni su come far funzionare la rete wireless con ubuntu 9.04
<ivaldo> c'e' nessuno
<ivaldo> c'e' nessuno?
<thorwil> ivaldo: english, please
<ivaldo> I don't speak english
<ivaldo> do you know well ubuntu 9.04?
<thorwil> ivaldo: you are on the wrong channel here, sorry
<thorwil> this is not a help channel
<ivaldo> ok
<ivaldo> thanks
<ivaldo> do you know an help channel
<ivaldo> ?
<thorwil> ivaldo: try #ubuntu-it, maybe #ubuntu-it-forum
<thorwil> at least italian ;)
<ivaldo> thanks thorwil  in italia si dice a buon rendere
<thorwil> awesome, text-align: justify is broken in inkscape
<thorwil> how silly of me to think one might be able to do serious, albeit single-page layout with it :/
<dutchie> thorwil: you can use the bot to direct such confused people to their own channel :)
<dutchie> !it
<manualbot> Vai su #ubuntu-it se vuoi parlare in italiano, in questo canale usiamo solo l'inglese. Grazie! (click col tasto destro sul nome del canale per entrare)
<thorwil> dutchie: great, ty
<dutchie> other country codes work too
<thorwil> !de
<manualbot> In den meisten ubuntu-KanÃ¤len wird nur Englisch gesprochen. FÃ¼r deutschsprachige Hilfe besuchen Sie bitte #ubuntu-de, #kubuntu-de, #edubuntu-de oder #ubuntu-at. Geben Sie einfach /join #ubuntu-de ein! Danke fÃ¼r Ihr VerstÃ¤ndnis.
<vish> !uk
<manualbot> Join us for a discussion using the Queen's English in #ubuntu-uk
<thorwil> !us
<manualbot> Factoid 'us' not found
<vish> !jp
<manualbot> æ¥æ¬èªã®å ´åã¯ #ubuntu-jp ã¾ãã¯ #kubuntu-jp ãåç§ãã¦ä¸ãã
<thorwil> !au
<manualbot> The Australian Local Community Team has channels here on Freenode. They are #ubuntu-au for technical discussion, and #ubuntu-au-chat for social chatter.
<vish> !nz
<manualbot> nz is the New Zealand LoCo Team has a channel at #ubuntu-nz
<thorwil> bah, uk is most fun
<dutchie> \o/ uk is always most fun
<dutchie> n
<dutchie> !love-#ubuntu-offtopic
<manualbot> Love is like racing across the frozen tundra on a snowmobile which flips over, trapping you underneath. At night, the ice-weasels come.
<thorwil> luckily ice-weasels are just firefoxes without trademarked artwork
* dutchie changed the topic of #ubuntu-manual to: Ubuntu Manual Project discussion | Wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual | Launchpad:  https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual | IRC logs: http://irclogs.ubuntu.com | Ubuntu Guidelines: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcGuidelines | Code of Conduct: http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct/ | Alpha release in 5 days! Get writing :)
<wolter> hey thorwil
<wolter> has anybody done any artwork lately?
<thorwil> hi wolter
<wolter> which is not in the wiki?
<thorwil> wolter: i think vish worked on the alpha title page
<thorwil> wolter: i wrote the design spec i hope you read
<wolter> yes
<wolter> i've come with a new version myself
<wolter> i didn't know about vish's wip
<thorwil> wolter: i asked vish to do the necessary to answer Ben's request while you weren't around. sorry about the lack of communication
<wolter> do not worry
<wolter> can i take a look at it?
<wolter> this is my new titlepage http://imagebin.ca/view/j4_DZU9B.html
<thorwil> wolter: honestly not intending to mock you, but a very quick association: welcome to the twilight zone
<wolter> whats that?
<dutchie> thorwil: haha, love the text though
<wolter> oh
<wolter> old tv show, says google
<thorwil> right, that one
<wolter> did they have a similar presentation theme/
<wolter> ?
<thorwil> wolter: though you did a pretty nice job with light and shadow, just limited by trying to keep it bright
<wolter> can you rephrase?
<thorwil> wolter: the series has a long history, don't even know it much. it's just this door to another dimension idea (spooky kind)
<wolter> oh
<wolter> well, i was trying to illustrate a context of new world too
<wolter> full of light
<wolter> say, if i wanted to make a cover for a windows manual, i would put this instead
<wolter> http://th01.deviantart.net/fs32/300W/i/2008/218/e/7/savannah_doorway_by_myrainclouds.jpg
<thorwil> wolter: yes, but to do so, you need a contrast, ending up implying a rather dark/unpleasant here. at least in my eyes
<wolter> thats a good idea
<wolter> now i understand what you said about the keep it bright thing
<vish> wolter: thorwil: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1325768/Cover-Version2lynx-lower.png
<wolter> oh
<wolter> ok
<thorwil> vish: you could try to use the extra space between "b" and "t" by placing the "with" there (not sure whether that would work)
<thorwil> vish: but generally this does the job done, so we should move on
<vish> yeah
<thorwil> gets, even, arg
<vish> thorwil: so I upload one for a4 and one for letter ?
<thorwil> godbyk: ^
<godbyk> Title pages?  Yeah, we'll need an A4 version and a letter version.
<thorwil> vish: current default seems to be letter
<vish> k.
<godbyk> I'll catch up on the rest of the conversation in just a moment. (Have to finish typing this email response.)
<vish> i'll tag them appropriately , so the team can use it correctly
<godbyk> Okay, email sent. Now let me catch up on the last 10 hours of conversation real quick. :)
<godbyk> Who's David and what's the cursor thing?
<thorwil> godbyk: David made the colorful title page proposals
<thorwil> cursor thing: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Artwork/Initial_Proposals?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=ubuntumanual_theclick_inside1_byKolorGuild.png
<vish> godbyk: how was /Team images/screenshots/title.png , generated? it has artifacts.. :(
<godbyk> vish: Not sure, I didn't generate that.
<vish> the lynx's nose is messed up and there is an odd smudge on the page
<godbyk> I take the svg you guys provide, pipe it through inkscape and output a PDF.
<vish> godbyk: we need to watch out for that
<godbyk> (Though inkscape likes to eat a few bits along the way, apparently.)
<godbyk> Yeah, that's something that inkscape does.
<godbyk> I'm not sure how to fix it at the moment.
<vish> godbyk: hmm , odd. it inkscape here doesnt do that
<godbyk> Really?
<thorwil> are there radial gradients, blur, clipped elements in the SVG?
<godbyk> run make clean, and then run "make coverpage.pdf"
<godbyk> then look at the PDF and see if it appears mucked up.
<vish> godbyk: i dont get an error like that, the above png was using inkscape
<godbyk> PNGs are fine, PDFs not so much.
<vish> > http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1325768/Cover-Version2lynx-lower.png
<vish> godbyk: yeah , but that png itself is corrupted
<godbyk> What PNG?  I don't make any PNGs (I don't think).
<vish>  /Team images/screenshots/title.png
<vish> godbyk: i didnt mean _you_ ;)
<vish> godbyk: just saying we , need to watch out for those errors :)
<godbyk> godbyk: Gotcha.
<godbyk> I'm going to be working on the interior book design soon (to take a break from the translation side of things).
<godbyk> Any specific comments are needs that haven't been addressed yet?
<thorwil> godbyk: i created an a4 layout template in inkscape
<godbyk> thorwil: Cool.  Is it in the repository? Or can you link me to it?
<godbyk> Fixing the margins is one of the top items on my list (for both letter and A4).
<thorwil> then found out that inkscape has a "justify" button, but doesn't actually justify text. aside of other issues with working with text
<godbyk> I'm still trying to get fonts for all the languages we're supporting too.
<godbyk> thorwil: Yeah, I've found inkscape to be lacking when it comes to working with text.
<thorwil> so now i'm working with scribus to create that layout again, to be able to include example text
<thorwil> godbyk: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/%7Et-w-/%2Bjunk/ubuntu_manual_cover/download/head%3A/layout_a4.svg-20100128134918-yenbpm0zvsr3vg5l-1/layout_a4.svg
<thorwil> godbyk: there are 2 layouts in there, one solely based on golden ratio divisions of the page
<thorwil> godbyk: the other ... well, unhide the "zick zack" layer
<godbyk> okay.  (waiting for inkscape to load)
<thorwil> wolter, vish: you might want to have a look at that, too
<thorwil> my concerns were to stay above 7 mm page margins, have all distances either equal or clearly distinct, all distances in harmony, every rectangle one might see on the page with good proportions
<vish> thorwil: thats the same earlier one you showed right?
<thorwil> godbyk: btw, paragraph first line indent shouldn't be combined with space before paragraph (or margin-top for css people)
<thorwil> vish: no, revised margins
 * vish looks
<godbyk> thorwil: I agree.  Those were inherited settings.
<godbyk> That's why I'm going to clear away everything and start fresh.
<godbyk> So there's one coherent design.
<thorwil> vish: more inner margin in case it will be perforated
<godbyk> (As opposed to trying to incorporate some former elements and not others and trying to figure out which is which.)
<thorwil> godbyk: excellent. by chance ever read tschichold? :)
<godbyk> thorwil: Yep.
 * thorwil hugs godbyk 
<godbyk> Clearly, inkscape hates me today and wants to eat my processor and not actually show a window.
<godbyk> thorwil: Heh.. I've got a whole shelf of books on typography and whatnot.
<godbyk> finally, inkscape popped up.
<godbyk> now I can take a look at the page layout.
<godbyk> thrWhat are the dark areas at the top?
<thorwil> godbyk: area for page number and running header (or whats it called)
<thorwil> so it's height only defines where the main text starts
<wolter> ok ill have a look thorwil
<godbyk> Hey, thorwil, if I can quiz you on some of the dimensions real quick, I can plug it into the manual and we can see what it looks like.
<thorwil> godbyk: ok
<thorwil> godbyk: outer margins (around bound main and margin-notes): outer: 11.703 mm
<thorwil> inner: 30.639
<thorwil> top 16.552
<thorwil> bottom: 26.781
<thorwil> header height: 26.781
<thorwil> margin-note width: 33.399
<thorwil> (gap between margin and main: 4.47)
<godbyk> Okay. Let me generate the PDF and see if I got them all plugged in right.
<vish> godbyk: i rendered the svg as png and pushed to branch
 * vish didnt notice any artifacts , but if other double checked it would be nice :)
<vish> others*
<thorwil> godbyk: that's the "phi" layout, btw
<wolter> ill do
<thorwil> godbyk: what do you suggest as body text size?
<godbyk> thorwil: What's the distance from the top of the page to the top of the main text block (ignoring the running head)?
<godbyk> thorwil: It depends on the fonts we go with.
<godbyk> Generally, 10 pt is a good starting place.
<thorwil> godbyk: 43.333
<wolter> oh vish, why would there be artifacts in the png?
<wolter> i tell you one thing, the coverpage is using the svg and it is not rendering well
<wolter> there is some code overlaying 'ubuntu
<wolter> ' on the top
<wolter> and the lynx has a severe layers problem
<wolter> anyway, i'm off..
<vish> wolter: this one currently in the branch has artifacts :(   /Team images/screenshots/title.png  , it messed up the lynx' nose
<godbyk> thorwil: Does this match your layout? http://kevin.godby.org/private/ubuntu-manual/main-a4-thorwil.pdf
<godbyk> It looks like the main text block is sitting too low on the page.  The running head really only consists of one line of text, so it doesn't need to be as tall as you have it in your layout.
<thorwil> godbyk: too much space above the running head
<vish> hmm , godbyk why do the links break alignment?
<vish> ex: page 8
<godbyk> vish: Under the contact details section?
<vish> yeah
<godbyk> The links don't break the alignment.
<vish> its better to have them each in a single line there
<godbyk> What happens is that if TeX can't hyphenate a word, then it occassionally is allowed to run outside the margins.
<thorwil> enough for today, cya!
<godbyk> Yeah, that whole paragraph needs to be rewritten anyway.
<vish> godbyk: looks pretty impressive for an alpha :)
<godbyk> vish: Things will get a lot more interesting when we start with translations.
<godbyk> The languages using the Latin alphabet (or extended-Latin) are fairly easy to deal with.
<vish> godbyk: how will they handle title page translation?
<godbyk> Languages using others scripts are more difficult.  I have to find typefaces that support those languages. Make sure the layout accommodates them, etc.
<godbyk> We may have to manually translate the title page and just have one title page per language in the repository.
<godbyk> Then our code will just select the appropriate title page to include based on the language (and paper size).
<vish> godbyk: can be superimpose the translation on the title page? use a translatable string there?
<godbyk> Possibly, but we'll probably want to handle it manually so we can deal with alignment problems and other tweaks.
<godbyk> There's no telling how the size of the English title will be in comparison to the size of the title in other languages.
<vish> as a rule of thumb if we stick to center align , it might work
<godbyk> Possibly.
<godbyk> Remember that some languages read right-to-left or vertically.
<vish> yeah :s
<godbyk> Sadly, I only speak English.  So I'm relying on the translation teams to help me out with a lot of that stuff.
<godbyk> For instance, I'm having a heck of a time finding a typeface that does a good job with the Telugu script.
<godbyk> The ones I've tried so far aren't placing the vowels nicely.
<vish> huh.. there is someone translating it to telugu o.0  interesting
<godbyk> https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual
<godbyk> It's getting translated to lots of languages.
<godbyk> (click View All Languages in the bottom right of that page)
<vish> pretty neat..
<godbyk> I think it's pretty awesome.
<godbyk> I'm trying really hard to make sure the manual looks as good in Telugu, for instance, as it does in English.
<godbyk> And that's pretty hard since I know virtually nothing about Telugu. :-)
 * dutchie pokes launchpad's imports
<godbyk> Uh oh.. don't piss off the translators again, dutchie! :-)
<dutchie> this is to help me avoid pissing off the translators
<godbyk> Did we ever figure out how to make it so it didn't reset everything each time we uploaded our new text?
<dutchie> I think I fixed it
<godbyk> cool
<vish> i think the merges were the problem
<godbyk> dutchie: Is there a way we can add just a plain boring text file to the list of 'translations' that may contain things that need to be translated or simple questions for the translators to answer?
<godbyk> Some of the languages aren't in the polyglossia package yet, and I've been emailing individual translators for help.  But if I could add the handful of strings I need translated to a file that gets sent to the teams, it'd be easier.
<godbyk> (I also need to get some suggestions on typefaces for each language, page size, date format, etc.)
 * dutchie will have a look
<godbyk> Thanks.
<godbyk> brb.. gonna fix a sandwich.
<c7p> i want to ask sth about translations. When the text of the manual will be permanent (or at least a chapter)? so we can know when to start translating? When the writing team modifies a string and updates the database then the whole string translation is lost. The result is very annoying for translators. We had translated 500 + strings before the recent update and now the translated strings are 146. brb
<dutchie> c7p: sometime after the beta
<godbyk> back
<c7p> back
<c7p> dutchie: thank you
<c7p> cya
#ubuntu-manual 2010-02-06
<thorwil> godbyk: how do you feel about wolter's proposal?
<godbyk> Which proposal?
<godbyk> thorwil: Sorry for the late response.. sound was off.  What proposal?
<thorwil> godbyk: [Titlepage] New proposal on the mailing list
<thorwil> no worries, i don't expect immediate reactions on irc :)
<godbyk> Hmm.. it's not too bad.  The door and text is okay.  The lynx seems a bit out of place, though.  Kind of just crammed in there.
<godbyk> Might be better to have the "Getting Started with" text larger, but maybe not.
<thorwil> godbyk: i start to think that nobody understands my design specification
<godbyk> Heh.. that's presuming people have read it. :-)
<thorwil> that possibility is included in not understanding ;)
<godbyk> I liked your design spec, btw.
<godbyk> I've noticed it is difficult to get people to help address those 'designy' questions.
<godbyk> Like 'what kind of image do you want to project?'  or  'what tone/voice do you want to use?'
<godbyk> 'how should people feel when they read the book?'
<godbyk> 'how should people react to it?'
<thorwil> godbyk: oh, so far it seemed to go well. but now the hard part is to get people to keep all that inmind
<godbyk> All of that wishy-washy feelings stuff goes into the design.
<godbyk> And the design matters quite a bit.
<godbyk> For instance, I can make the interior of the book a modern design and that evokes certain feelings.
<godbyk> I could also make it a more classical design and that would evoke other feelings.
<godbyk> So far much of the design discussion has focused on the title page (i.e., the graphics), but we need to bring that same level of discussion to the interior design as well.
<thorwil> godbyk: i actually planned to keep the interior a matter between the few people who really care
<godbyk> thorwil: What do *you* think of wolter's proposed cover page?
<godbyk> Well, that's fine.  (I'd rather that than each individual tossing in their two cents on, say, the color of a heading.)
<thorwil> godbyk: it's like an unintentional slap in my face
<godbyk> As long as it's still on the plate to be discussed. :-)
<godbyk> It is pretty generic and doesn't really say much about the contents.
<thorwil> godbyk: i'm very unsure about how to react to it
<godbyk> Are we still looking for proposals?  Or was one selected?
<thorwil> godbyk: i'd like to not have any complete proposals appear, currently
<thorwil> godbyk: but rather move step by step
<godbyk> I can agree with that.
<godbyk> Would it help to have a meeting of the design-types to make sure everyone's on the same page re: tone/visual identity/etc.?
<thorwil> godbyk: guess i should write an email to the group to clearly explain my plans and intentions
<godbyk> thorwil: That's probably a good idea. Also, point them to the new Artwork page so they can read the spec (if they haven't already).
<godbyk> thorwil: I'm going to start redesigning the interior from the ground up soon.  That way there's a cohesive design there instead of a mish-mash of things smashed together.
<godbyk> For instance, I have no idea where the colors for the headings came from, why they're each a different color, etc.
<thorwil> godbyk: i might finish my templates today. you can treat them as proposals, i will see what you come up with
<godbyk> Sure.
<godbyk> A lot of the page layout comes from the content.
<godbyk> For instance, if we only have a few, short sidenotes, then we can have a narrow measure for them.
<godbyk> But since it looks like we have sidenotes quite frequently and they're usually a bit longer, I'll probably leave more space for them.
<godbyk> We'll need to make the margins generous enough that various printers don't clip off any of the content, but small enough that we're not wasting paper.
<godbyk> thorwil: Also, since you're good at graphics (and I'm decidedly not), you might give some thought to any icons we'll use on the interior of the book (for warnings, notes, whatever).
<thorwil> i wouldn't worry about wasting paper. we have to avoid overly long text lines. plus inner space shrinks in case of perforation
<godbyk> Keep in mind that if we expect people to print this, we shouldn't rely on them printing in color.
<godbyk> We may want to go so far as to use flat, 2D, grey icons.
<godbyk> Yeah, I'm not too concerned about wasting paper at this point.
<godbyk> Readability trumps page count, in my opinion.
<thorwil> godbyk: make a list of situations where we might want to use an icon, then.
<thorwil> to be send to the team
<godbyk> thorwil: I'll glance through the text so far and see what I can come up with.  For starters, I'd look at what the giant red ! and !! are used for.  (Since someone asked me specifically to add commands for that.)
<godbyk> It's 04h00 here, so I think I'm going to head to bed.  I'll be back on in 10 hours or so, probably.
<godbyk> Feel free to leave messages here or email me if you like.
<thorwil> godbyk: ok. in 10 hours i will be about leaving :)
<godbyk> heh.. stupid time zones!
<thorwil> godbyk: dropped the separate header areas in my template. spacing between header and body to be defined in terms of line heights. http://bazaar.launchpad.net/%7Et-w-/%2Bjunk/ubuntu_manual_cover/download/head%3A/layout_a4.svg-20100128134918-yenbpm0zvsr3vg5l-1/layout_a4.svg
<dutchie> nice link there :)
<thorwil> a bit on the short side
<godbyk> thorwil: Cool, I'll take a look.
<godbyk> thorwil: I'm not seeing any difference.
<godbyk> And running diff on the two SVGs says they're the same.
<godbyk> Wrong link?
<thorwil> godbyk: opps, yes, wrong revision, sorry
<thorwil> now launchpad shows me 5 lines of the svg ...
<thorwil> godbyk: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/%7Et-w-/%2Bjunk/ubuntu_manual_cover/download/head%3A/layout_a4.svg-20100128134918-yenbpm0zvsr3vg5l-1/layout_a4.svg
<godbyk> ah, that's better.
<thorwil> good night!
<VARGUX> Hello "people".... :)
<dutchie> oi, we're all real here
<VARGUX> anyone knows to another people that are translating the manual into spanish?, or who is checking the translation?....
<VARGUX> (in ubuntu spanish translator... I say..
<dutchie> https://translations.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/main/+pots/ubuntu-manual/es/+details
<dutchie> that's probably a good start
<VARGUX> hahaha.. yeah.. my name/nick is here
<VARGUX> thanks dutchie... but maybe my question is wrong made
<VARGUX> mmm...
<VARGUX> dutchie: sorry, need I be part of the ubuntu spanish translator for check the translation?
<dutchie> I think so
<VARGUX> mmm
<VARGUX> I'm waiting for weeks for accept me in this team..
<dutchie> someone in #ubuntu-es probably could approve you, try asking in there
<VARGUX> becuase I'm translating several strings... and I think that this translation not available for the following releases
<VARGUX> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-l10n-es/+members#proposed
<VARGUX> then... lol... these guys dont accept no one, I think...
<dutchie> poke them in #ubuntu-es then
<VARGUX> they need a slap on  the wrist :P
<VARGUX> I'm not a snitch :)
<dutchie> just ask them in #ubuntu-es, it's probably  just something they haven't got around to doing for a while
<VARGUX> yeah...
<VARGUX> thanks dutchie for your time
<dutchie> no problem
#ubuntu-manual 2010-02-07
<dutchie> manualbot: ping
<manualbot> pong
<manualbot> Here I am, brain the size of a planet and you expect me to respond to a ping? How depressing.
#ubuntu-manual 2011-01-31
<Andre_Gondim> how may I make this manual in pt-br to check my translations?
#ubuntu-manual 2011-02-04
<almufadado> hi
#ubuntu-manual 2013-01-28
<c7p> godbyk: hey
<godbyk> Hey, c7p. You're up late!
<c7p> :P sorry i couldn't make it
<c7p> how did it go ?
<godbyk> No problem. The meeting went pretty well.
<c7p> \me i'm diving into irc logs
<godbyk> Cool
<c7p> is you googledoc down ?
<godbyk> It's working okay for me at the moment.
<c7p> Sorry, the file you have requested does not exist. :/
<godbyk> Were you looking at the meeting notes file or the authors/editors spreadsheet?
<c7p> yes
<godbyk> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1HLwhH9I_Q9rZw98tovNy97MnC43bBkaGuXZmHz6r3C4/edit
<c7p> ahh
<c7p> ok now, thx
<godbyk> np
<c7p> how many people where on channel during meeting ?
<godbyk> I don't know. A decent number, though.
<c7p> happy for that :D
<godbyk> The French had a decent delegation. :-)
<c7p> hehe translation teams seems to refresh main project
<c7p> i've read quickly the discussion
<c7p> i've already sent a message to authors almost a week back, but got 5 responses only
<godbyk> Ah, okay.
<c7p> so i'll resend it now
<godbyk> So it sounds like we may need to find some new authors, eh?
<godbyk> Okay.
<c7p> and wait how long till we announce openings ?
<godbyk> How long do you think we should wait?
<godbyk> We probably shouldn't wait longer than a week, I don't think.
<c7p> ok
<c7p> do we have a spreadsheet for 13.04 ?
<godbyk> Hannie linked to it in the chat.
<godbyk> Let me find it.
<godbyk> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ApS28NMLnYJXdGd1LVl5X2hvNkg2SEZiVzZ2RnYtWHc#gid=0
<c7p> ahh nice
<c7p> hmm, i see some names on 13.04 column
<c7p> Joel Pickett, John Cave etc. did someone added them ?
<c7p> i've sent the message to those who didn't reply
<c7p> and also drop a mail to 2 decent past contributors, Che and Senthil :D
<c7p> my first impression is that Working with Ubuntu may need some love from new authors, in worst case
<c7p> but i think we are very good at this stage. Also, hopefully we got a very strong editor team
<c7p> so in case any author is missing on a section that not much changes, the section doesn't hold back the release
<c7p> got to sleep ! big day tomorrow ! good afternoon/night :)
<teolemon> #1 and #2 in the linux section
<teolemon> http://www.amazon.fr/gp/bestsellers/books/407682/ref=pd_zg_hrsr_b_1_4_last
<teolemon> we're now #44 in Amazon.fr's computer books section :-)
#ubuntu-manual 2015-01-30
<woodrowshen> Hi all, I'm woodrow, and I'm interested to join the project as translater and programmer:)
<woodrowshen> I also sent a request to lp
#ubuntu-manual 2015-01-31
<woodrowshen> ping
