#ubuntu-doc 2005-06-27
<jsgotangco> hello
<judax> Hi
<squinn> hey judax, jsgotangco 
<squinn> jsgotangco: question for you
<squinn> and i only ask you because i've heard your name/nick before LOL
<judax> Hi squinn 
<jsgotangco> hi
<jsgotangco> sure
<jsgotangco> squinn, fire away
<jsgotangco> holy shit i forgot my sudo password
<squinn> um, i think i may have determined it
<squinn> but i dunno.
<jsgotangco> ?
<squinn> jsgotangco, if it's possible, can you see why i'm not getting mail from ubuntu-doc
<squinn> i mean, i can send out now
<jsgotangco> whats your email
<squinn> and i got some of my own messages
<squinn> seandq@gmail.com
<squinn> but i am not getting any in
<jsgotangco> im so scrwed i forgot my own password
<squinn> i think it COULD be because i was set to get only english docteam messages
<squinn> can't you check?
<squinn> h/o i know how to check
<jsgotangco> no i mean my password in another box
<squinn> http://ubuntuguide.org/#changerootpasswordforgotten, jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> let me check the archives
<squinn> oh
<squinn> ok
<squinn> do you use GRUB on that box?
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jsgotangco> my problem is i forgot my sudo password so i cant even passwd root
<squinn> okay here's the fix
<squinn> it's an ubuntu box?
<jsgotangco> yeah
<squinn> and you use grub
<squinn> first thing i suggest
<squinn> is that you boot into that kernel's recovery mode
<squinn> it gives you root access and all you then type is "passwd root"
<jsgotangco> ahh
<jsgotangco> oh it gaveme root access
<jsgotangco> cant i just change password to my username here?
<jsgotangco> squinn, there's nothing wrong with your list account its all default
<rob^> is there an index of all the pages in the wiki?
<jsgotangco> there used to be one
<jsgotangco> hmm
<jsgotangco> not so sure about the moin one
<rob^> I didnt think so, I couldnt find it anyway
<rob^> the subversion server certificate isn't issued by a cert authotity.. is this normal?
<jsgotangco> it means that the server certificate is not listed in a 3rd party. that is pretty normal
<jsgotangco> (my mailserver for one)
<rob^> yeah, I was just making sure nothing funny was going on
<rob^> just a quick question about the user guide, the sections marked "NO STATUS" mean that no one has started work on the section, right?
<jsgotangco> on the wiki?
<jsgotangco> the wiki is not that updated
<jsgotangco> im supposed to fix the status for docs :)
<rob^> http://people.ubuntu.com/~mako/docteam/status/ug-report.html
<jsgotangco> no please don't refer to that doc
<jsgotangco> anything inside mako's shell is most likely old
<rob^> ah
<rob^> where is the up-to-date list, if any?
<jsgotangco> we have a docteam project page but its not updated
<jsgotangco> give me until today to fix that
<rob^> np
<rob^> thanks
<froud> morn jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> froud, hi mate
<jsgotangco> froud, what a mouthful
<froud> mouthful?
<jsgotangco> the email :)
<rob^> jsgotangco, where is that page located?
<froud> oh yeah, me bad guy, taking flack :-)
<froud> jsgotangco: if you want to setup the status previews we must enable the scripts
<jsgotangco> rob^, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamProjects
<jsgotangco> scripts?
<rob^> ah ok.. thats the one I was using
<jsgotangco> rob^, the status are terribly old
<rob^> yeah
<froud> jsgotangco: yes the scripts that create those  pages on DocteamPages
<froud> oops
<froud> DocteamProjects
<froud> for script to generate those pages see libs/writeOwnerStatus.xsl
<jsgotangco> hi
<mdke> morning
<mdke> i am going back to bed
<mdke> just woke up because some kind of thunderbolt struck outside
<jsgotangco> heh its raining here but no thunderbolts
<mdke> my internet connection has been down all night :/
<mdke> how are you jsgotangco ?
<jsgotangco> im trying to chew sean's email
<mdke> i am pleased he wrote
<mdke> dialogue is important
<jsgotangco> i will still go to the TB route but tell them that we will ship what we decide
<mdke> the point is, the doc team needs to discuss these matters as a team
<mdke> THEN we need to get good communication and rapport going with -devel
<jsgotangco> aye
<mdke> mine and henrik's emails are not really about what to ship
<jsgotangco> yep
<robitaille> the double titles on most wiki pages since the migration are annoying me.    Should we start removing the 2nd titles?
<mdke> like what?
<mdke> you mean the /talk pages?
<robitaille> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MarkShuttleworth
<robitaille> where you see "Mark Shuttleworth" twice at the top
<mdke> oh i see
<mdke> that doesn't bother me!
<mdke> jsgotangco, but obviously if you want to remove them you can
<mdke> there are about 1500 pages to do ;)
<robitaille> yeah I know.  I have removed a couple while doing other edits
<mdke> me too
<mdke> btw I made a CategoryUbuntuTeams just now
<robitaille> question about that:  are they just for official teams?  I just saw the ArtTeam a few minutes ago; should they get that category added at the end?
<mdke> tbh I don't know
<mdke> i think it should be in that category
<mdke> and also linked on the UbuntuTeams page
<robitaille> I don't think they are an official teams;  not even sure if it is an active team
* mdke shrugs
<mdke> not sure
<robitaille> that's what I was leaning toward.....a team is a team..  Do you know what is the story about graphics that didn't make the transition?  That ArtTeam page link to a png that obviously isn't there right now.
<mdke> yes it is being worked on
<mdke> they got lost
<mdke> we may need to relink them when they are copied back
<robitaille> it's nice to have a new wiki...but quite a few things are broken.  (just saw the latest e-mail from jsgotangco about missing meeting summaries)
<jsgotangco> hmm one wiki page i made literally disappeared :)
<jsgotangco> GYAAHHH
<mdke> jsgotangco, which?
<jsgotangco> pdatesting
<jsgotangco> i did that spec :)
<jsgotangco> oh wait
<jsgotangco> i was at the talk page
<jsgotangco> *whew*
<mdke> pages are backed up anyway
<mdke> robitaille, yeah :(
<mdke> what email about missing meeting summaries?
<mdke> oh
<robitaille> sent to the ubuntu-doc list 8 minutes ago
<mdke> that is not due to the wiki transition
<jsgotangco> forget it, im totally messed up this morning
<mdke> that is due to jsgotangco randomly posting stuff that wasn't there ;)
<mdke> *grins*
<mdke> let him get his fix of green tea
<jsgotangco> i'm not sending another email
<jsgotangco> its probably that freaking ice crream during lunch
<mdke> mmm
<mdke> icecream
<mdke> so maybe I won't go back to bed
<mdke> haven't had much sleep tho...
<jsgotangco> mdke, you're not italian yet you are part of the italian team?
<jsgotangco> (not based in italy as well)
<mdke> that's it
<mdke> who uses bluefish?
<jsgotangco> i do
<mdke> i installed it yesterday, its amazing
<jsgotangco> heh
<jsgotangco> im surprised you just installed it
<mdke> i'm gonna use it for our stuff
<jsgotangco> its been available for a while
<mdke> it supports docbook too
<mdke> morning mpt 
<jsgotangco> yes it does
<jsgotangco> so does screem and conglomerate
<mpt> hi mdke, jsgotangco, everybody
<jsgotangco> mpt, hi
<froud-work> sounds suspiciously like IE will be a FF clone :-) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/XAML/message/429
<froud-work> However, Microsoft
<froud-work> recognizes that much more work remains to be done and will continue to make improvements in the IE version that ships with Longhorn as well as in IE 8.0.
<froud-work> Hmmm
<jsgotangco> mmm?
<froud-work> hopefully they wont mess it up along the way
<jsgotangco> enrico, hi :)
<enrico> hi
<jsgotangco> im going home
<jsgotangco> later people
<mdke> night
<gtaylor> does anyone remember when Warty was first released?
<gtaylor> like around what date?
<gtaylor> about a year ago?
<mdke> october 2004
<mdke> ubuntu releases are every 6 months
<mdke> (see about-ubuntu ;)
<gtaylor> ok, thanks
<gtaylor> yeah I saw that
<froud-work> wary release numbers give clues 4.10
<gtaylor> doh, forgot about that
<froud-work> 5.10
<mdke> sorry for the connect/disconnect spamming
<mdke> hopefully done now
<philipacamaniac> mdke, do you have a list of wikipages with broken image links?
<philipacamaniac> how can I make WordsLikeThis not appear as InterWiki links? (e.g., KolourPaint or KRegExpEditor)
<Burgundavia> you don't
<Burgundavia> that is called camelcase
<Burgundavia> and that is how the wiki makes links
<Burgundavia> kind of dumb, actually
<philipacamaniac> so, okay...
<philipacamaniac> hmm
<philipacamaniac> I guess renaming them to Kolourpaint and Kregexpeditor is the best idea? or maybe post them as `inline code`
<philipacamaniac> I'm going to search for this "bug" at MoinMoin, because almost every KDE application appears to use camelcase, which makes it muy dificil for creating and working on KDE wikipages.
<Burgundavia> the bug is not going to go away until the wiki switches from CamelCase
<Burgundavia> which would be nice, but most wikis do it
<jjesse> does that mean we have to type it wrong?
<philipacamaniac> why can't a character be implemented that escapes camelcase?
<Burgundavia> we should probably switch to non-CamelCase along with Wikipedia
<Burgundavia> as that is more intuitive, in my view
<Burgundavia> file a bug in the ubuntu bugzilla about dropping camelcase
<philipacamaniac> I agree about the intuitive comment, and I will file an internal bug, but I still think an camelcase escape character/command could exist.
<Burgundavia> if we switch to non-camelcase, then we don't have the issue
<Burgundavia> as links become [[link] ] 
<philipacamaniac> good point
<mdke> philipacamaniac, for the broken images, we will organise a structured action and post it to the list
<philipacamaniac> excellent
<mdke> it will be awesome if you can help
<philipacamaniac> I'm a very web-oriented guy, so the wiki seems like the best way for me to help right now. I'm also posting some markup suggestions to the list.
<mdke> there is a way of stopping WordsLikeThis not linking I think
<mdke> philipacamaniac, that's cool thanks
<philipacamaniac> what's the method?
<mdke> lemme test
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> its not pretty philipacamaniac 
<mdke> still wanna hear it?
<philipacamaniac> as long as it works
<mdke> Words''''''Like''''''This
<philipacamaniac> wtf?
<philipacamaniac> what is that character??
<mdke> its an apostrophe
<mdke> on my uk keyboard it is under the @ sign
<mdke> you use '' for italics, ''' for bold etc
<philipacamaniac> okay, lemme try
<mdke> example is on MatthewEast
<mdke> at the end of the first line
<philipacamaniac> okay so 6 single quotes
<philipacamaniac> it didn't look like that when you posted in here :)
<mdke> oh
<mdke> what did it look like?
<philipacamaniac> that's perfect, and exactly what I was looking for.... it looked like  <-  (sort of)
<mdke> weird
<philipacamaniac> but I'm on my laptop, which is *gasp* windows
<mdke> oh that's why
<philipacamaniac> yeah
<mdke> it doesn't read utf8 properly
<mdke> btw those ideas you sent to the list are nice
<philipacamaniac> I meant to send a couple more, they are on their way... I just forgot to add them
<mdke> a link to return to the original page is important i think
<philipacamaniac> the command is there, just not the link
<mdke> after editing it takes you to MatthewEast#preview, which is annoying, so it would be cool to have a button to go back to MatthewEast
<philipacamaniac> yep. what about the /talk idea? (a little more radical, I know)
<mdke> actually having said that, the "clear this message" does that
<mdke> yeah the talk idea is also good
<mdke> i don't think the interface is too busy
<philipacamaniac> "clear this message" doesn't appear on diff and show changes
<mdke> nono
<philipacamaniac> I mean diff and info
<mdke> just on #preview
<philipacamaniac> yeah
<mdke> i gotta run to the shop
<mdke> back later
<philipacamaniac> k
<abelli> vale comites.
<mdke> hi abelli
<abelli> ciao mdke 
<abelli> mdke: do you guys have something ready (developerdocs)?
<mdke> abelli, we are not working on developer docs right now afaik
<mdke> our projects are http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamProjects
<mdke> actually we should put that in the topic
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-doc:mdke] :  Ubuntu Doc Team - general discussion - backlog at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs | Projects on http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamProjects | This channel tries to follow the tradition of the #gnome-love channel on irc.gimp.net, all new comers and questions are welcomed, as long as you follow the Ubuntu community code of conduct @ http://www.ubuntulinux.org/community/conduct first.
<philipacamaniac> you need a lot of help with the kubuntu docs, eh?
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> both really
<mdke> actually a few people have joined recently with interest in kde
<philipacamaniac> that's good... if I join the docteam, I'll prefer KDE documentation
<mdke> ;)
<froud-writing> welcome philipacamaniac kde fellow
<philipacamaniac> hi
<abelli> froud-writing: is that a good thing or not?
<froud-writing> goood
<abelli> enrico: ding
<froud-writing> kde good
<jjesse> kde really really good :)
<philipacamaniac> :)
<froud-writing> yumm
<froud-writing> candy
<abelli> im so sorry for you.
<mdke> i tried enlightenment this evening
<froud-writing> I know abelli I loveyou 2
<mdke> it is very nice looking
<abelli> mdke: youre coming from gentoo .. right?
<jjesse> why the switch from gentoo mdke? i never heard
<froud-writing> philipacamaniac: you want a bite of the kde user manual
<abelli> jjesse: that was a thought .. if he uses e* .. 
<froud-writing> gentoo good for servers
<mdke> i use gentoo on my desktop abelli/jjesse
<abelli> froud-writing: and froud good for writing .. not thinking.
<philipacamaniac> froud-writing: I have no experience with DocBook yet, I'm lurking and getting a feel for it
* Burgundavia questions the sanity of mdke 
<froud-writing> philipacamaniac: dont be shy I will help you
<froud-writing> philipacamaniac: you just write and leave the docbook to me
<froud-writing> philipacamaniac: in time you will learn it too, its not hard
<froud-writing> philipacamaniac: just looks that way
<jjesse> if i can learn it anyone can :)
<abelli> in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamProjects .. the next release is still hoary.
<froud-writing> whose up for hacking the balzes out of the kubuntu user guide, all in favor say aye!
<mdke> Burgundavia, :)
<mdke> abelli, will change, thanks
<jjesse> aye :)
<abelli> mdke: just call me master .. we're friends.
<philipacamaniac> aye guess  ;)
<froud-writing> gtaylor: what about you dude
* froud-writing look around for more kde hipsters
<froud-writing> jjesse: how much work you want?
<abelli> sorry but afaics there are more things planned for kde than for gnome .. is kde more difficult and less intuitive than gnome?
<froud-writing> philipacamaniac: and you? how much work?
* Burgundavia will take the troll and say yes
<jjesse> is there anything started in the kuserguide?
<gtaylor> froud-writing: What's up?
<froud-writing> I will have a #1 outline this week
<philipacamaniac> we're talking https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/trunk/kde/kuserguide/ ? 
<froud-writing> gtaylor: you up to hacking the blazes out of the kubuntu user guide?
<froud-writing> new outline
<abelli> Burgundavia: no one is following you .. :(
<gtaylor> oh yeah, I was waiting on an outline so I could start :)
<froud-writing> each take a part and blow it apart in a few weeks
<jjesse> a lot of userguide for ubuntu can be used in kubuntu userguide correct?
<philipacamaniac> this will be my first time, so I'll have to start small, please
<froud-writing> Ok so I have an outline in the pipes
<gtaylor> sounds good
<froud-writing> philipacamaniac: dont worry you take what you can bite
<philipacamaniac> excellent
<froud-writing> OK here is my plan
<mdke> *sigh*
<froud-writing> I have a drop of the kde users manual
<froud-writing> I am building it from upstream
<froud-writing> I will drop it in the vendor/
<froud-writing> and copy to the kde/kuserguide/
<froud-writing> merge it into one piece so that everyone can take a chunk
<froud-writing> any questions
<froud-writing> OK some of our changes should flow upstream to kde
<gtaylor> just let me know when the outline is up :)
<mdke> i've just sent a mail to the list following up on the decision at the meeting for individuals to be responsible for documents
<froud-writing> so I will merge specific stuff from the trunk/ into the vendor/
<froud-writing> that way we can help upstream
<philipacamaniac> mdke: ?
<froud-writing> mdke: Hmm did not know
<mdke> froud-writing, how could you, I just sent it now
<froud-writing> OK, so jjesse, gtaylor, philipacamaniac the kubuntu user guide is a big peice
<froud-writing> give me about two days and monitor th elist
<mdke> sounds like froud-writing will take charge of the kde user guide ;)
<gtaylor> ok
<jjesse> just let me know and i will attack it
<froud-writing> I will try to add comments so my outline is not too obscure
<mdke> froud-writing, it would also be nice if you share what you are doing/planning with the rest of the team via the list
<froud-writing> I know it is hard to get an outline if you did not write it yourself
<froud-writing> mdke: I am just aiming at one of the targets
<froud-writing> and gathering team players
<mdke> i know
<mdke> my point remains
<abelli> is there any wysiwyg app for docbook?
<Burgundavia> not really
<froud-writing> mdke: no debate, no brakes
<Burgundavia> OO.o can do it sort of
<mdke> froud-writing, its not a question of debate, its a question of you announcing formally that you will take charge of that document, and share how you intend to do it with the list
<mdke> both those points were agreed on at the meeting
<mdke> also, a clarification of your position in the team would be nice
<froud-writing> Another point is anyone here a boff with packaging
<froud-writing> abelli is looking for a dumies guide on how to create debs
<philipacamaniac> there's a good wiki page for that, lemme find it
<gtaylor> I've dabbled in it a bit and could help if someone wanted to head that up
<gtaylor> my user page has a link to that :)
<froud-writing> abelli, you have +1 more now
<mdke> there is some stuff here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperResources
<mdke> the wiki has a good search engine
<abelli> mdke: thanks .. for saying something very useful.
<froud-writing> abelli: how do you wnat it
<froud-writing> fakeroot is good
<abelli> i want it easy .. 
<froud-writing> Hmm fakeroot is safe
<abelli> like a sunday morning ..
<froud-writing> bad day
<squinn> back 
<mdke> abelli, are you implying I don't normally say useful things? :p
<froud-writing> alright abelli you lead it and we will support
<froud-writing> hey squinn 
<froud-writing> you're a kde dude
<froud-writing> riht?
<abelli> mdke: im implying that that wasnt absolutely useful.
<mdke> ah
* froud-writing goes of to work
<mdke> sorry for trying to help abelli 
<abelli> mdke: thanks a lot.
* philipacamaniac thinks mdke made a perfectly true and legitimate praise of the great new wiki
<squinn> no actually froud-writing 
<squinn> im gnome
<squinn> i just noticed that about kubuntu
<squinn> hence why i made the patch
<froud-writing> squinn: ok dude
<froud-writing> no problem
<squinn> I'm going to unsubscribe to the list..try resubscribing.
<froud-writing> thanks
<squinn> It's really crappy to me.
<froud-writing> :-)
<abelli> mdke: can you help me in that?
<squinn> you're welcome, froud-writing 
<mdke> abelli, with what?
<abelli> Ubuntu Packaging Survival Guide.
<mdke> I don't think so
<mdke> i know nothing about it, and don't have much time atm
<squinn> *growls*
<abelli> ohhhg grazie mille.
* squinn growls louder
<squinn> I unsubscribe because I didn't get mdke's email.
<squinn> I look in my inbox, there's my unsubscription notice..right after mdke's email.
* squinn resubscribes as planned
<mdke> squinn, the ubuntu mailing lists are a little slow sometimes, you have to be patient ;)
<squinn> yep yep lol
<Burgundavia> the lists were also down during the weekend, and may still be catching up on some server-side stuff
<squinn> Burgundavia, I remember.
<mdke> yes
<squinn> I thought that Ubuntu was just running slow. 
<squinn> Then I found out it was the great 2005 blackout haha
<gtaylor> heh, that "What does a Linux Geek Look Like" thread is amusing
<karlheg> http://web.pdx.edu/~hegbloom/Aptitude/tutorial-intro-aptitude.html
<squinn> mdke, you get my msg on list?
<squinn> because i didn't hah
<gtaylor> If you guys have a moment, go to http://www.reviewlinux.com/articles/8/4 and give me a 5 :) (pretty please)
<gtaylor> editor kinda chopped the review up a bit but it came out ok I guess
<froud-writing> gtaylor: 10X cool dude
<froud-writing> gtaylor: kde-docs is At revision 427473.
<froud-writing> gtaylor: you think if I drop that into svn /vendor/kde/
<froud-writing> we can track and merge revisions from upstream
<froud-writing> I have upstream checkout
<froud-writing> I can diff the upstream folder with /vendor/kde and apply the patches
<froud-writing> then we can merge the stuff we want into trunk/kde
<gtaylor> might be a good idea
<froud-writing> gtaylor: you reckon its managable
<gtaylor> would make it easier to grab from
<gtaylor> froud-writing: Yeah, you might want to consider writing something to automatically checkout/commit the kde docs periodically though
<gtaylor> if you have a box that's permanently connected to the net
<froud-writing> yep
<froud-writing> but the merge between vendor and trunk will have to be selective
<froud-writing> otherwise we endup with massive conflicts
<froud-writing> cause that revision is not a stable release
<gtaylor> that would definitely be something that needs to be outlined in detail before people get to writing
<froud-writing> sure
<froud-writing> question is how many upstream changes will we merge to trunk
<jjesse> gtaylor that was an interesting article, no mention of kde that i saw :(
<gtaylor> good question :)
<gtaylor> jjesse: That's the topic for a Kubuntu review (which I will write up)
<judax> gtaylor: 5
<gtaylor> danke
<abelli> buona notte a tutti.
<gtaylor> I'm not sure what that meant :)
<froud-writing> gtaylor: open khelpcenter for a sec
<gtaylor> ok
<froud-writing> you see the blue books
<gtaylor> yup
<froud-writing> ok these are all in seperate folders
<froud-writing> speaking to Riddle over at kubuntu-devel
<gtaylor> ok
<froud-writing> he sees no reason to branch kde docs. I agree
<gtaylor> so he wants us to add the Ubuntu specific stuff to the KDE docs?
<froud-writing> but it can be usefull if we can use xInclude to get text nodes
<philipacamaniac> and searching doesn't work (argh!)
<froud-writing> no
<froud-writing> he says make a kubuntu specific docs
<froud-writing> and if needed include content from kde upstream
<gtaylor> ok
<gtaylor> sounds like a safe plan
<froud-writing> there are many places where we can copy their text
<froud-writing> but why copy it when we can just xinclude it
<gtaylor> yeah
<froud-writing> so thinking
<froud-writing> I will put a vendor drop of upstream in /vendor/kde
<froud-writing> anyone working on kde will checkout the vendor drop relative to their trunk
<froud-writing> that way our xinclude paths remain constant between us
<gtaylor> sounds good
<froud-writing> with the vendor drop we can, as and when required, choose to use xinclude/xpointer to bring in xml nodes by way of reference
<froud-writing> so we have no need for copy paste
<froud-writing> sound ok?
<gtaylor> yeah, as long as we can modify the includes if the need be
<gtaylor> (should be rare though)
<froud-writing> yes we can but best done upstream
<gtaylor> ok
<froud-writing> or I can diff and patch between the two copies I have on disk
<froud-writing> and that way commit it to kde
<froud-writing> I have kde commit
<froud-writing> but there is a warning with this
<froud-writing> with this comes a responsability
<froud-writing> if we make changes to xincludes then they must not be related to kubuntu but kde in general
<gtaylor> That sounds fine as long as everyone knows and understands this
<froud-writing> yep
<froud-writing> do you understand xincludes?
<froud-writing> jjesse: do you understand xincludes?
<gtaylor> yeah, no problem here
<froud-writing> OK that just leaves jjesse 
<froud-writing> gtaylor: I will send a message to the list outlining all this
<gtaylor> Sounds good
<froud-writing> just incase ;-)
<jjesse> xincludes? nope
<jjesse> sorry
<froud-writing> np
<froud-writing> its ok
<GregTaylor> testing IRC clients :)
<froud-writing> Konversation 0.18 Build 3016
<froud-writing> on 0.16 here
<GregTaylor> they just updated it
<froud-writing> how is 0.1.8
<GregTaylor> think it might've been a backport. I'm not sure, never used 0.16 to Kompare it too :)
<froud-writing> jjesse: can you read http://www.sagehill.net/docbookxsl/ModularDoc.html when you get a chance and let me know if there is anything you dont understand?
<froud-writing> GregTaylor: do you want to use Glossaries
<froud-writing> gtaylor:  do you want to use Glossaries
<froud-writing> jjesse:   do you want to use Glossaries?
<gtaylor> froud-writing: I think it might be helpful
<froud-writing> gtaylor: take a look at http://computerdictionary.tsf.org.za, let me know if you think we can use it as a build dependancy
<froud-writing> gtaylor: what's your docbook toochain?
<gtaylor> froud-writing: That's a broken link for me
<froud-writing> gtaylor: r you ok with a 4.4 dtd
<froud-writing> oops
<gtaylor> froud-writing: I know little about the DTD's, I've just been following the same format as the documents I tinker with.
<froud-writing> http://computerdictionary.tsf.org.za/
<gtaylor> So I'm fine with anything
<froud-writing> should work
<gtaylor> That's an interesting project
<froud-writing> gtaylor: this is kde stuff so kubuntu will ship html
<froud-writing> but if we want to use xincludes then we need at least docbook 4.3 or higher
<froud-writing> higher the better as 4.4. fixes some issues
<gtaylor> That's fine with me. The dictionary looks interesting too. It'd be nice to have if it doesn't make things run really slow when browsing the pages.
<froud-writing> it will only be used for build
<froud-writing> for transform from xml 2 html
<froud-writing> there is no need for anyone to install it on a user desktop
<gtaylor> Then I see no reason not to use it, it looks pretty thorough
<froud-writing> just the authors here
<froud-writing> gtaylor: your are welcome to bring patches to the project, sen dme your username and password and I will open you a commit account
<froud-writing> jjesse: what do you think of the abov elink
<jjesse> the computer dictionary?
<froud-writing> yes
<jjesse> i like it
<froud-writing> can you use it?
<froud-writing> do you want glossaries
<jjesse> i would like glossaries
<froud-writing> ok do you know about glossentries
<jjesse> a little bit
<froud-writing> ok then http://www.sagehill.net/docbookxsl/Glossaries.html
<froud-writing> gtaylor: jjesse; I will impliment it as a glossary database as descibed http://www.sagehill.net/docbookxsl/GlossDatabase.html
<froud-writing> jjesse: do you want to commit to the dictionary?
<jjesse> i think so letme read more about it :)
<jjesse> checked out svn
<froud-writing> OK if you do send mail to me with username and password
<froud-writing> Ok that's it for now. so I go to write that message explaining all this.
<squinn> froud-writing, did u get my list msg?
<froud-writing> squinn: yes that is fine
<froud-writing> mdke: move to arrange commit account for squinn 
<squinn> froud-writing and mdke, appreciated
<squinn> froud-writing, only reason i asked is because i didn't get the msg
<squinn> thats fine, i'll view via web interface
<froud-writing> OK, but I need a second to get your account
<froud-writing> any other commiter prepared to second me :-)
<jjesse> am i allowed to ?
<froud-writing> your a committer
<jjesse> then i second it :)
<froud-writing> if you feel its good then second the motion and I will write to enrico
<froud-writing> thanks
<jjesse> heading home, softball tonight have a good one
<froud-writing> squinn: pls send me your public pgp key and your username of choice
<squinn> froud-writing, will do
<squinn> username is squinn 
<squinn> pgp key is on its way
<froud-writing> thanls
<froud-writing> thanks
<froud-writing> I will fwd to enrico and jerome cc you. Give elmo some time to open the account, he will message you the details when he is done
<froud-writing> if nothing happens in one week, then let us know so we can ping him :-)
<squinn> Alright, thank you.
<froud-writing> squinn: was the last patch to the quick guide from you?
<squinn> yes.
<froud-writing> the one jeff applied
<squinn> yes, that was me.
<squinn> or my patch, yes.
<froud-writing> Ok, you coul dnot know this so dont be worried
<froud-writing> but did you look at it in yelp?
<squinn> Yes, I did.
<squinn> But I probably overlooked something.
<froud-writing> Ok you mainly did this
<froud-writing> -linkend="qg-ubuntu-update-manager"endterm="title-qg-ubuntu-update-manager"/>, 
<froud-writing> +linkend="qg-ubuntu-update-manager"/>, 
<froud-writing> there is a problem with that in so much that the xrefs now read wrong
<froud-writing> blah blah Chapter 5. -----
<squinn> oh..i see
<mdke> ok yeah commit account for squinn is a good idea
<froud-writing> mdke: thanks
<mdke> froud-writing, will you be writing to the list re taking responsibility for kde user guide?
<froud-writing> yes
<mdke> also to clarify your position on the team?
<froud-writing> :-) dude so long as its kde I dont see a problem, do you?
<mdke> i have a problem with the "just visiting" thing
<froud-writing> squinn: there is a bug in yelp
<squinn> froud-writing, yeah, jeff alerted me on that
<mdke> froud-writing, i have no problem with you taking on the kde user guide tho, of course I'm happy
<froud-writing> we did suply a patch upstream before hoary release
<froud-writing> but it was not touched
<squinn> Ah, okay.
<squinn> Hm.
<froud-writing> squinn: see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeamMeetingSummary3
<mdke> squinn, btw your email just came to me afaics, not the list
<froud-writing> [WWW]  Yelp's XRef problem
<mdke> froud-writing, i hope you understand my point re: your position on the team
<squinn> hm okay
<squinn> i think froud-writing got it..
<squinn> did ya, Sean? I'm not sure. I hit 'Reply To All'. I think?!
<mdke> squinn, oh no sorry, i see it
<mdke> squinn, the list software didn't send it to me because you had me in the To: box
<mdke> my bad
<froud-writing> squinn:  http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=170074
<froud-writing> that is why it does not handle linkend="qg-ubuntu-update-manager"endterm="title-qg-ubuntu-update-manager"/>
<squinn> ah, alright
<squinn> not a problem
<squinn> somethings focking up with evolution, not list fault
<froud-writing> squinn: upstream must fix this bug
<squinn> i got it on gmail web interface
<squinn> i see where you're coming from
<froud-writing> squinn: its not a docbook bug, but a yelp bug
<squinn> yes.
<froud-writing> mdke: leave my position for now
<froud-writing> mdke: its not importnat
<squinn> froud-writing, i'm going to bump that bug
<froud-writing> mdke: time to move on and let jerome manage it
<froud-writing> mdke: its in community hands now
<froud-writing> squinn: you can, but I doubt they will do it
<mdke> froud-writing, its important for the team to know if you are going to work in the team or for yourself
<mdke> otherwise our work will get hampered
<froud-writing> mdke: I always work for myslef :-) no secrets there
<squinn> froud-writing, nothing to lose -- i'll go for it
<froud-writing> squinn: yes, but I think the maintainers wanted a better solution.
<froud-writing> frustrating
<froud-writing> they should accept that one until there is a better one
<froud-writing> mdke: my traction on kde will not get in your way
<mdke> froud-writing, your attitude will get in the way of the team
<mdke> this "just visiting" business is incredibly counterproductive
<froud-writing> mdke: only if you see it that way. now really, drop it and move on
<mdke> I'm not the only person that feels that way
<froud-writing> mdke: well I cant help that ppl have had their chance to rip into me
<froud-writing> if I am th ebad guy, then so be it
* mdke shrugs
<froud-writing> now I would rather focus on doing
<froud-writing> no offense intended
<mdke> ok
<froud-writing> if somebody has a problem with me they can say it to me or via the list
<mdke> ok
<mdke> i've expressed my views
<froud-writing> I have no problem with that
<mdke> its enough
<froud-writing> acepted
<mdke> but I hope you understand that I am working as hard as I can to make a group, rather than an individual-led project
<mdke> if I fail, so be it
<froud-writing> mdke: I understand that
<mdke> ok i'm glad
<froud-writing> mdke: you know there are some good things that have come of this
<mdke> i'm sure there will be
<mdke> they haven't come yet though
<froud-writing> mdke: no its already happening, for the first time in a long time I am seeing people taking ownership of the project
<froud-writing> people who were once new to the project are now getting old and they are having views that challenge my own
<froud-writing> that's a good thing
<froud-writing> IMHO
<mdke> well i arrived all the participants in the project had left
<mdke> i don't want that to happen again
<mdke> if we create a group that takes decisions TOGETHER, that will not happen
<froud-writing> dude most never did anything
<froud-writing> they went to do their own things
<froud-writing> one became a debian developer
<froud-writing> something he always wanted
<froud-writing> and so with each person
<froud-writing> at last xmas time all I found was an empty svn sitting on hornbecks machine
<mdke> you know that many left because of dissatisfaction with the project
<froud-writing> perhaps
<mdke> now that we are getting interest from many, we need a proper team
<froud-writing> but they were also not committing
<froud-writing> this group is different, they are committing
<froud-writing> and I want to work with committers, not those that dont :-)
<froud-writing> anyway, I have a proposal to write
<froud-writing> mdke: I am a mixed bundle some good, mostly bad
<froud-writing> ;-)
<mdke> you just need discipline ;)
<froud-writing> yes sir!
<mdke> your work is great, but you don't inspire trust when you go it alone
<froud-writing> I am not on a popularity contest here
<mdke> thats not the point
<mdke> its a team question
<froud-writing> you and jerome have finally challenged
<froud-writing> and that is good
<mdke> if we have regular team meetings and follow up on the decisions made in the last meeting with mark, I'm sure that we will have a team in place, that will not depend on individuals
<froud-writing> it shows commitment
<mdke> i'm not challenging
<froud-writing> dude you have and that is brilliant
<froud-writing> you questioned me and that is good
<mdke> there should be no sense of challenge in a proper team
<froud-writing> dude it works
<froud-writing> leave it there
<mdke> bah
<froud-writing> I am happy for your and jerome
<froud-writing> at least I wont go unchecked ;-)
<mdke> sure
<mdke> but I do not want to feel that you need to be checked
<froud-writing> can I go back to work now dad :-)
<froud-writing> dude we all do
<mdke> nah
<mdke> if the team makes all decisions, it will be fine
<mdke> regular meetings will help
<froud-writing> mdke: I leave you to learn as I did, lets talk in about six months on this subject. I would like to hear th elessons you have learned
<froud-writing> mdke: one tip
<mdke> I can't believe you keep misunderstanding me and think that this is about a technical question
<mdke> this is purely a community question for me
<froud-writing> sometimes silence is consent
<froud-writing> mdke: no I dont :-)
<mdke> ok
<mdke> btw silence is only rarely consent
<mdke> from the legal point of view it is never consent
<froud-writing> mdke: like me you will find that at some point you will need to make decisions because nobody else is willing to make them. Every leader has these times
<mdke> you are not a leader
<mdke> nor am i
<mdke> nor is anyone on this team
<froud-writing> Hmmm, I wonder
<froud-writing> you have age
<mdke> that is my whole problem
<mdke> you think you are a leader
<froud-writing> mdke: you are a leader, accept it
<mdke> nope
<mdke> i dont accept that
<froud-writing> you may not be officially appointed, but you are a leader
<mdke> not in this community
<mdke> this is a team
<froud-writing> you age and experience with the project makes you so whether you like it or not
<mdke> or rather, it should be
<froud-writing> and new members will look to you for guidance
<mdke> we have different definitions of leaders
<froud-writing> yes
<froud-writing> we do
<froud-writing> very
<mdke> anyhow
<froud-writing> :-) lets leave it at that shall we
<mdke> this community has rules
<mdke> i like rules
<mdke> i respect them
<froud-writing> hmm
<froud-writing> I see so
<mdke> you're a renegade :)
<froud-writing> perhaps
<mdke> there was a great english lawyer like you
<froud-writing> I like the great part
<mdke> he used to ignore the rules
<mdke> and make his own
<karlheg> debian/rules -j
<froud-writing> yep
<mdke> he was a great lawyer
<froud-writing> make your own rules
<froud-writing> stand by your guns
<mdke> but what he did was wrong
<froud-writing> and go for it
<mdke> nope
<froud-writing> sure we all do wrong
<squinn> froud-writing, here's my pgp key
<mdke> rules, in a FOSS community more than anything, are vital to the survival of the community
<squinn> should i send the 1024 pub or the 2048 sub?
<mdke> squinn, your public key
<froud-writing> 1024
<squinn> 32DAA3C3 
<squinn> that was preceded by 1024D/
<squinn> but i think that was irrelevent
<froud-writing> mdke: you will learn that squinn email sean@inwords.co.za
<mdke> i will learn what?
<froud-writing> mdke: that there are no rules
<mdke> ooh
<mdke> i got patronised
<mdke> maybe you will learn my point of view one day
<froud-writing> if you work with rules you get boxed
<squinn> froud-writing, email you @ sean@inwords.foo.bar?
<squinn> i didn't feel like typing co.za*
<mdke> squinn, email him your key
<froud-writing> mdke: another thought
<squinn> okay
<froud-writing> destroy everything
<froud-writing> build and tear it down as much as you can
<froud-writing> if you are going to do something you must fail
<froud-writing> the faster you fail, th emore times you fail, the faster you will suceed
<mdke> well i will continue trying to help build a team
<froud-writing> I know you think I am barmy right
<mdke> i believe in building a team structure that will not need to be torn down
<mdke> froud-writing, you ARE barmy
<froud-writing> Hmmm, build it, break it and build it again, better each time
<mdke> you know that
<karlheg> Without rules, the box isn't square and won't stand.
<mdke> yes
<mdke> anyway, enough on this
<froud-writing> well that's fine if you want to see the world in squares
<mdke> froud-writing, other people's way of seeing the world is equally as valid as yours
<karlheg> arches then?
<karlheg> French curls?
<karlheg> Ah!  Round tables.
<squinn> froud-writing, sent
<squinn> froud-writing, i'm now talking to the head of GNOME Bugzilla's YELP.
<squinn> He's got our bug assigned, etc.
<squinn> froud-writing, <shaunm> squinn: was fixed about six weeks ago
<squinn> froud-writing, got some news
<squinn> froud-writing, it is to the knowledge of gnome that the yelp problem was fixed
<squinn> with this brand-spankin-new package
<squinn> gnome-doc-utils 0.3.1
<froud-writing> Ok, so now we just need to upgrade
<froud-writing> and test it
<squinn> right.
<squinn> but i'm still in hoary
<froud-writing> that's ok just upgrade yelp
<squinn> >shaunm> squinn: btw, starting with gnome-doc-utils 0.3.1, you can just do <xref linkend="foo-id" xrefstyle="role:title"/>
<squinn> <shaunm> squinn: btw, starting with gnome-doc-utils 0.3.1, you can just do <xref linkend="foo-id" xrefstyle="role:title"/>
<squinn> so put in a breezy repo?
<froud-writing> squinn: I think it will
<froud-writing> oh no not more gnome namespaces
<froud-writing> Ok I am off fo rthe night. c ya
<mdke> :/
* mdke is tired
<squinn> join the club.
<mdke> ok
<squinn> mdke, should i pull the plug and go for breezy?
<mdke> nah
<mdke> don't worry about that stuff is my advice
<squinn> okay
<mdke> just concentrate of getting some content sorted
<mdke> of/on
<squinn> i think i may go breezy anyway though
<squinn> with nothing to do with docteam
<mdke> your call
<mdke> it doesn't work much right now
<squinn> but im not pulling trigger until im sure
<squinn> i've noticed
<squinn> hence why i'm holding back
<mdke> yeah me too
#ubuntu-doc 2005-06-28
<squinn> mdke, what was that whole deal between you and froud there?
<mdke> myself and a couple of others have a problem with his work methods
<mdke> hopefully we will sort it
<mdke> at least we talk about it..
<philipacamaniac> from an outside perspective, its making it difficult for me to decide whether or not to pursue real docteam work, or rather to just contribute to the wiki
<mdke> i can imagine
<mdke> i am sorry about that philipacamaniac 
<squinn> mdke, i just realized
<squinn> we need that new package for breezyt
<squinn> its not even in breezy repo yet.
<mdke> squinn, chill!
<mdke> breezy gets everything in the end
<mdke> Ubuntu releases are synched with gnome releases
<squinn> well i'm just freaking
<squinn> with the upstream version freeze on july 7th
<mdke> you're worse than jsgotango
<mdke> don't panic!
<squinn> haha..
<squinn> okay
<squinn> yeah, i had to help jerome hack into his own computer last night
<squinn> he forgot his password
<mdke> *laughs*
<mdke> awesome story
<squinn> yesss
<squinn> ubuntu automatically does what i was doing manually 
<squinn> i love it
<squinn> i was adding in events, like meetings, to my evolution calendar
<squinn> and robitaille is maintaining a live one on the web
<mdke> url?
<squinn> http://ubuntulinux.org/wiki/Calendar
<squinn> and there's an ical version..which syncs with evolution
<squinn> just change the http on it to webcal and add it to evolution and you're ready
<mdke> oh i didn't realise there was an ical version of that page
<mdke> cool
* squinn faxes in signed Ubuntu Code of Conduct
<squinn> Yep. I just found it.
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> nice work robitaille!!
<mdke> ok Be RiGhT bAcK
<squinn> mdke, welcome back
<squinn> what does SABDFL mean?'
<mdke> thanks
<squinn> i know its mark's nick
<mdke> erm
<squinn> but is it an abbreviation?
<mdke> yes its an anacronym
<mdke> erm
* mdke racks brains
<mdke> self appointed...
<mdke> b, dunno
<mdke> dictator for life
<squinn> bastard? lol
<squinn> as in bastard operator from hell kinda bastard?
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> i think its a positive B
<mdke> not sure
<squinn> Benevolent
<squinn> that's it
<squinn> "Self-Appointed Benevolent Dictator For Life"
<squinn> found on slashdot
<mdke> yeah that was it
<mdke> exit
<philipacamaniac> mdke
<squinn> robitaille, i'm in debt to you
<squinn> i love your iCal adaptation of the ubuntu calendar
<robitaille> thanks.  I kept missing meetings, so a while back I decided to start maintaining one. I'm glad it is of use (I actually have no idea how many people are subscribing to it)
<squinn> hey jerome
<jsgotangco> hey
<jsgotangco> whats up
<squinn> not much, i was nominated for commit account [yay] 
<jsgotangco> thats great elmo will probably have it done later or tommorow
<squinn> yep ye
<squinn> p
<froud> morn everyone, African greetings
<jsgotangco> hello
<judax> Texas greetings
<jsgotangco> "Thoughts questions? Silence will be interpreted as consent"
<jsgotangco> froud :(
<froud> jsgotangco: see [proposal]  message for hacking the k user guide. responses wanted
<froud> jsgotangco: :( ?
<jsgotangco> you're gonna take a lot of flack for that statement
<froud> which?
<jsgotangco> "Thoughts questions? Silence will be interpreted as consent"
<froud> that's a dig at mdke :-)
<froud> see logs
<jsgotangco> i know, but why?
<froud> and if ppl what to flack me its ok I have enough holes in me already so most bullets will just go straight through :-)
<jsgotangco> i will take this email as a "yes i am back and will contribute to whatever extent i can"
<froud> on kde there is no problem
<froud> kde ships html
<froud> :-)
<jsgotangco> would you prefer to just do kde then
<froud> right?
<froud> jsgotangco: I am just leading by example
<froud> :-)
<judax> got to run to bed, you guys have a great day
<froud> bye
<jsgotangco> i'm not in the mood for a long chat/explanation, i'll assume you'll do whatever you can within boundaries of your interest
<froud> jsgotangco: people work when there is work being done. I am starting. Just like you fond with kwickguide, ppl come when things happen
<froud> jsgotangco: thanks for the permission :-)
<jsgotangco> yes so i'll keep it as that
<jsgotangco> ?
<froud> just joking dude
<jsgotangco> i don't want people seeing you in the gray area of things
<froud> oh dude, some will and some won't.
<froud> I am getting used to the gray area, actually it is a good place, seems lots gets done there :-)
* jsgotangco puts froud on guy responsible for kubuntu user guide
<froud> jsgotangco: but I am not the only one, gtalyor and jjesse will be hacking it
<jsgotangco> urrkk i hate moin tables
<froud> they are fun
<jsgotangco> no they're not if you're monitor is only capable of 1024x768 :P
<froud> ok b c'ing ya
<froud> meetings
<Burgundavia> http://hula-project.org/Wiki_Conversion
<jsgotangco> yes that's nice
<jsgotangco> its mediawiki
<jsgotangco> i loovvee mediawiki
<Burgundavia> so do I
<Burgundavia> I really wish they would consider us when they did the wiki move
<Burgundavia> as we are probably the largest user of the wiki
<brodmann> does anyone have planeshift installed?
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, ping?
<Burgundavia> here
<jsgotangco> would you like to adopt a document in svn?
<Burgundavia> not for a least another month
<Burgundavia> I am in the middle of searching for a job
<jsgotangco> its ok theres no rush
<jsgotangco> i just want to fill up this table in the wiki
* Burgundavia hates paper pushers ;)
<jsgotangco> ok no pressure then
<Burgundavia> lol
<Burgundavia> just dumped 3 posts on p.u.c
<jsgotangco> mr potato head
<jsgotangco> mdke, hi
<mdke> hi jsgotangco 
<mdke> how are you?
<jsgotangco> im ok im doing wiki work now
<jsgotangco> i could not do everything at the same time
<jsgotangco> hence i made up my schedule
<mdke> cool
<mdke> making a kde quickguide status page? cool
<jsgotangco> no
<jsgotangco> im cleaning up the whole wiki
<jsgotangco> :)
<mdke> right
<jsgotangco> i think i should love our wiki now
<jsgotangco> the last one was terrible
<jsgotangco> mdke, what document are you going to adopt
<jsgotangco> i'll put it in the table
<mdke> i don't think I am going to adopt one
<jsgotangco> gyaahhh
<mdke> hopefully we'll have some volunteers on the gnome user guide
<jsgotangco> i'll edit the table to make it look more understandable with the status
<jsgotangco> ill projmgmt the whole thing
<mdke> cool
<mdke> perhaps "status" and "info" should be merged
<jsgotangco> the udu breezygoals wiki is a good sample of having everything visible all at once
<mdke> yes
<jsgotangco> probably we can adopt the WIP, TBC, Pending, etc. style?
<mdke> it might be easier to have 1 table rather than 3
<jsgotangco> merge all of them?
<jsgotangco> some of the generic docs might not be able to make it at all
<mdke> i think it would look better
<jsgotangco> you have a point
<jsgotangco> hmm
<mdke> well the installguide should remain
<mdke> you should probably remove the stuff which is not in our goals
<jsgotangco> ok i'll just make priorities i guess
<jsgotangco> priorities would be the major docs
<jsgotangco> seconds would be some generic stuff
<jsgotangco> ill put styleguide as priority
<jsgotangco> wtf the wiki just died on me
<mpt> wahhhhh
<mpt> holy wiki bug, batman
<jsgotangco> heh
<jsgotangco> its running now
<jsgotangco> mpt
<jsgotangco> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamProjects
<jsgotangco> would a style like this be more preferable like what we did in UDU?
<mpt> jsgotangco, I don't understand that question, it's missing a "than" or a "to" :-)
<jsgotangco> oh right english is not my primary language :)
<mpt> jsgotangco: The wiki being down isn't the bug. The bug is that http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/SELinux and https://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/SELinux are completely different pages.
<jsgotangco> oooohhh
<jsgotangco> WOW
<JonA> jsgotangco: Good work on the DocteamProjects page.
<jsgotangco> you dig it?
<jsgotangco> hehe
<jsgotangco> its much clearer thats how we did it during UDU
<JonA> jsgotangco: I dig it :-)
<jsgotangco> nice thanks
<jsgotangco> Status Page and HTML Preview are kinda cloudy for now
<jsgotangco> but its a start to have the show running smoothly
<JonA> Is make regularly generating the docs from SVN for preview?
<JonA> *Mako
<jsgotangco> i have no idea
<jsgotangco> its probabaly just the previous team using mako's shell
<mpt> What's the Moin code for a redirect?
<mpt> nm
<squinn> JonA, I'm all clear to work together on GNOME user guide.
<jsgotangco> sivang, hey
<sivang> hey jsgotangco 
<JonA> squinn: Cool. I'll send you an email with my rough work plan when it's done.
<squinn> Sure, great.
<jjesse> morning or whatever time of day it is for you :)
<jsgotangco> jeezz im getting hungry
<squinn> morning here jjesse ..so..morning
<jjesse> grin never know what time it is for people 
<jsgotangco> ok people, please fill up the blanks on this page
<jsgotangco> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamProjects
<jsgotangco> :)
<squinn> done
<jjesse> jsgotangco just people taking charge of the projects right? so if i'm working on a project but not in charge there is nothing really to fill in?
<jsgotangco> hmm
<jsgotangco> that title is misleading
<jsgotangco> that field is supposed to say who's working on it rather than who's owning it
<jsgotangco> because it might impede people from contributing if they see someone who already owns it
<jsgotangco> Doctem Members Involved
<jsgotangco> sounds good?
<jjesse> for example, working on kde userguide so i add my name
<jjesse> and i like that change to the name
<jjesse> grin work calls have a good day
<jsgotangco> holy wiki conflict
<jsgotangco> heh
<squinn> I moved to your stuff
<jsgotangco> froud, hi
<squinn> morning froud 
<froud> jsgotangco: hi
<froud> squinn: hi
* squinn upgrades to breezy
<jsgotangco> good luck
<squinn> i know
<squinn> i used to run gentoo unstable though
<squinn> so i guess i'll be ready
<froud> MS Office XML Formats Not OK with GNU
<jsgotangco> ?
<jsgotangco> im outta here
<froud> MS Office XML Formats Not OK with GNU
<froud> Peter Galli, eWEEK
<froud> The royalty-free license under which Microsoft plans to make its
<froud> upcoming new Office Open XML Formats widely available is incompatible
<froud> with the GNU General Public License and will thus prevent many free and
<froud> open-source software projects from using the formats, community
<froud> officials say. In addition, a leading patent official is calling into
<jsgotangco> ok bye bye
<JonA> squinn: Suggest pinning back xfonts-*
<squinn> Wait, what, JonA?
<JonA> squinn: I upgraded a testing maching to breezy a couple of days ago. Big problems with X, which can be made into more manageable problems if you don't upgrade the xfonts-* packages.
<JonA> Also, don't upgrade the libxft2 package.
<JonA> If you're upgrading with Synaptic, just use the "lock package" command under the Package menu.
<squinn> oh fock.
<squinn> i gotta remember how to downgrade pkgs now
<squinn> save
<squinn> it didn't upgrade yet, just downloaded files
<JonA> :-)
<gtaylor> jesus, remember that Ubuntu review I wrote/pasted in here yesterday?
<squinn> gtaylor, noh
<squinn> oh
<squinn> heh, just viewed it on osnews
<squinn> and didn't realize greg taylor = gtaylor
* gtaylor guess I should've clarified my rating scale :)
<gtaylor> And spelled "drool" correctly
<squinn> hah
<gtaylor> I didn't think someone was going to post some review on some unknown Linux site like that so I didn't spend a whole lot of time on it
<squinn> ah, i see
<squinn> welcome back, JonA 
<gtaylor> heh, a retort: http://squishywaffle.com/article.php/20050621101115454
<squinn> heh, gtaylor, you seem familiar from somewhere
<squinn> braves fan, then, eh?
<squinn> or just happy they beat UF?
<squinn> oh, not UF, florida marlins
<gtaylor> I do like the Braves, and yeah I missed the game but am glad they finally beat them
<squinn> Ah.
<squinn> I live in Florida, yet despise the Marlind.
<squinn> Marlins.*
<squinn> and the Nationals. and the Phillies. and the Braves.
<squinn> That pretty much leaves my team all but revealed.
<squinn> I bet ATL's fans are a lot more genuine then John Rocker portrayed my team's fans to be.
<jjesse> is it just me or is the wiki slow today?
<squinn> wiki's a little slow for me today
<gtaylor> I can't believe the Nationals coming in from nowhere and kicking so much ass
<squinn> gtaylor, I know it. My team was tied for first..and is slowly sinking into last.
<gtaylor> Who are you pulling for?
<gtaylor> Yankees? :)
<squinn> NL East.
<squinn> RIVALS of the Yankees and the Braves.
<squinn> That OTHER New York team.
<squinn> I'll brb, restart of X
<gtaylor> blah, even worse :)
* gtaylor makes fun of the Mets while squinn is out
<jjesse> the mets stink :)
<jjesse> unlike my team the detroit tigers
* mpt sees gtaylor's review on Google News
* squinn saw it on osnews
<gtaylor> wtf? Google News?
<gtaylor> Jesus christ, have people not seen an Ubuntu review before? Why is this thing getting plastered everywhere?
<mpt> heh
<gtaylor> It's the rating I gave it I bet. I've asked the site admin to let me clarify what my scale is setup like (which I should've done in the first place)
<gtaylor> 1 being equivalent to absolute worse Linux distro (currently) and 10 equivalent to one of the best/the best Desktop Linux (currently)
<gtaylor> 10 != perfect. There's no reason to have a 10 if nothing will ever reach it.
<mpt> gtaylor: My personal Google News page has an "Ubuntu Linux" category, which is currently showing me <http://addict3d.org/index.php?page=viewarticle&type=news&ID=7646>, which is an extended excerpt of your review
<gtaylor> if one of you people slashdot that article I'm going to kill you :)
<gtaylor> I'll start getting dead animals on my front door if it gets there
<mpt> You're safe, it's not interesting enough
* mpt ducks
<gtaylor> heh, it was hastily written and sent out without screenshots or anything really
<mpt> getting osnewsed is easy
<gtaylor> I'm getting like 7 comment emails a minute and there's no way to turn them off on the linux review site
<mpt> There's only 6 comments on the site!
<gtaylor> those are the only visible ones
<mpt> oh, you're the moderator?
<gtaylor> the users have to specifically check the "Make my comment visible" box and the admin has to approve them
<gtaylor> no, the webmaster guy is
<gtaylor> people are of course now bitching that no negative comments are showing up and blaming it on me :)
<mpt> yeah
<mpt> I was first wondering why the rating at the top of the article looked more like 4/5 than the 10/10 you'd given it
<mpt> eventually I realized it was ratings given by readers, but then I was wondering why the 4/5 was different from the 29/30 of the visible comments
<mpt> gtaylor: But I disagree that there's no reason to have a 10 if nothing will ever reach it
<mpt> You need to allow room for improvement
<mpt> Operating systems today are like cars in the 1910s
<gtaylor> improvement to a point that will never be reached? :)
<mpt> They've developed in leaps and bounds from the ones that were available 20 years ago, but they're still really really really crappy.
<gtaylor> If he lets me update it I'll probably just do a percentile since even a 1-20 scale is a bit kludgey
<gtaylor> a 10/10 could be rounded up from 9.6 :)
<mpt> heh
<mpt> and wipe up the drule :-)
<gtaylor> blargh
<gtaylor> you can tell I use that word a lot
<gtaylor> look at that guy's Fedora review, it has spelling errors in the summary
<gtaylor> I make like 1-2 typos and people are like, "ooooh, non-native English speaker!"
<mpt> "I selected my timezone, accepted the GPL..." <-- This distributor doesn't understand the GPL
<gtaylor> eh?
<mpt> The GPL is not an EULA
<gtaylor> where are you seeing that?
<gtaylor> I mean where did you quote it?
<mpt> in the Fedora review
<gtaylor> the one with the tacky screenshot or the bad spelling guy?
<mpt> tacky screenshot I guess, I don't see any misspellings
<mpt> http://www.reviewlinux.com/articles/11/1/The-Fedora-Core-4-Review--
<mpt> apart from "very updated", which is grammar, not spelling
<gtaylor> that screenshot makes me want to run away screaming
<mpt> That's what Linux looks like on Neptune
* gtaylor shudders
<mpt> to borrow a phrase from elsewhere in the article, it "doesn't look very well"
<gtaylor> heh
<mpt> Reviews are hard to do well
<mpt> but publicity is good.
<squinn> yep.
<squinn> PC World's #1 Linux Distribution of 2005 heh
<philipacamaniac_> mdke, you available?
<mdke> i am indeed philipacamaniac_ 
<philipacamaniac_> sorry about the _ on my name, don't know who the heck else would use my nick  :)
<philipacamaniac_> anyway, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PhilipCain/HTML2MoinTest
<philipacamaniac_> it kinda worked, but crucial things, like headings as links, didn't
<mdke> *grins*
<mdke> get it back with /msg nickserv help
<mdke> but np
<mdke> headings as links?
<philipacamaniac_> === heading ===
<philipacamaniac_> === ThisWouldntWork ===
<philipacamaniac_> it is more a problem with how the KUDOS guide is layed out. if you have good, clean HTML, the script will work great
<mdke> do we even have those implemented on our wiki?
<mdke> omg that is awesome!
<mdke> great work
<mdke> well if you're doing it all on one page...
<philipacamaniac_> I found it somewhere on the moin site, but adjusted a little to work for our purposes
<philipacamaniac_> yes...
<mdke> what you really want is for the tables of contents to link to the various sections
<philipacamaniac_> I'll have to think about that one
<mdke> that is possible on a moin wiki using an anchor macro, but I dunno if it works on our wiki
<philipacamaniac_> anchor macro works, 
<philipacamaniac_> however, if you have an anchor in the source html that has a link and a name, it only takes the link
<mdke> I sent a proposal for a wiki team to the list
<philipacamaniac_> when?
<mdke> right now
<mdke> hmmm
<philipacamaniac_> great
<squinn> i'm loving breezy
<squinn> works quite well
<philipacamaniac_> gnome or KDE
<squinn> gnome
<mdke> ah yes i see the macro
<mdke> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpOnMacros?action=raw
<mdke> cool
<squinn> JonA was kind enough to tell me what not to upgrade [some X libraries]  and it's running like a charm
<mdke> cool
<mdke> i'll install it on my laptop if I ever get it repaired
<philipacamaniac_> mdke, the moinconvert script was fast and light... it converted the entire KUDOS html in about 7 seconds
<mdke> wow
<mdke> thats is well cool
<philipacamaniac_> so if I can figure out how to make it work better with multipage linking, we'll be golden
<philipacamaniac_> it sure was!
<mdke> if you do, push it upstream too
<mdke> #moin might be able to help
<philipacamaniac_> Yeah, I'll do that
<mdke> mvirkkil is working with them on a moin->docbook converter
<mdke> my god i get such a lag on this network
<mdke> always full bar
* squinn wonders if commit account is ready yet
<mdke> squinn, you have to be patient
<philipacamaniac_> Is there already a good HTML > DocBook converter?
<mdke> it will take several days
<mdke> philipacamaniac_, no
<philipacamaniac_> so, this script might actually have some use to the docteam
<mdke> there are some, but they don't work propa
<squinn> mdke, i am
<mdke> philipacamaniac_, the html->moin one?
<mdke> http://wiki.docbook.org/topic/Html2DocBook
<philipacamaniac_> mdke, yes I meant html2moin
<mdke> squinn, submit patches and they will get committed
<squinn> i know, i'm looking over stuff as well
<philipacamaniac_> if the HTML2DocBook starts to work better, the kudos (and others) should just be ported straight to DocBook. Is there a DocBook2Moin script?  ;)
<mdke> philipacamaniac_, yeah i think so!
<mdke> i dunno
* mdke 's head spins
<mdke> philipacamaniac_, but in any case i doubt that the kudos and ubuntuguide will be maintained in our repository
<philipacamaniac_> ah yes, we'll convert from A to B, to get to C, and then take B back to A, to form D
<mdke> we have already tried to get the ubuntuguide guy to play ball and work officially with us, but he wants to maintain it himself I think
<jeffsch> philipacamaniac_: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/doc/ArticleToMoinDesc
<philipacamaniac_> that's what I saw on the mailing list...
<froud> https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/trunk/teamstuff/article2moin
<philipacamaniac_> does it work, froud and jeffsch?
<froud> yeah
<jeffsch> yes. but is not complete
<mdke> it is work in progress
<mdke> oh thats not the moin2docbook one
<mdke> soz
<jeffsch> i'm thinking it might be easier to do docbook->xhtml->moin
<froud> :-)
<philipacamaniac_> interesting
<philipacamaniac> yay
<philipacamaniac> well, I like the idea of a wiki team
<mdke> wb
<mdke> the idea of a wiki team is not a new one i think, i saw it somewhere on the wiki, although i can't find it right now
<philipacamaniac> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WikiToDo?highlight=%28wikiteam%29
<philipacamaniac> search good
<philipacamaniac> is there a page that clearly defines the purpose of the wiki?
<mdke> of the wiki in general, or our wiki?
<philipacamaniac> our wiki
<mdke> dunno then ;)
<philipacamaniac> obviously, howtos and collaboration of the various teams, plus homepages... but I there's a lot of other stuff in there, too
<philipacamaniac> like a page describing mepis
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> its free for all
<philipacamaniac> which is fine, sorta, but maybe the wikipolicy could define the nature of possible wikipages
<mdke> ok i'll be back later
<philipacamaniac> cya
<mdke> melodie, although there are some ideas about harnassing the documentation in source packages for Ubuntu (jdub is interested in that area, but is a very busy guy), there is no active project yet
<melodie> mdke: the thing is I drove around the all net to find about the CD stories
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> to me it sounds like a bug with the program
<melodie> and all around ATAPI drives
<mdke> you say there is some debian documentation?
<melodie> as \sh sayd It could be the hard but I checked it
<melodie> the doc is
<melodie> in the cdrtool-docs package
<mdke> if you are interested in that particular area, a cool thing would be to take the debian documentation, suggest some amendments to it, and file a bug under that package. The other alternative might be to put something on the wiki
<melodie> all the docs contain infos that are more or less obsolete
<melodie> I went throught the 800 and so lines of man cdrecord also :))
<melodie> and no one doc gives accurate info
<melodie> what is the best alternate ? 
<melodie> I've got about 11 pages on OOo notes
<melodie> I file bugs each time I meeet some
<melodie> and get good returns on them
<melodie> :)
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> thats cool
<mdke> i reckon a bug on the package that contains the obsolete doc
<mdke> that is really useful
<mdke> maybe even both :D
<mdke> wiki pages are always useful
<melodie> I can tell you something strange ?
<mdke> tell me anything
<melodie> I dl the NeroLinux documentation :D
<mdke> ok
<mdke> don't tell me that :p
<melodie> I found out it's more understandable
<mdke> *grins*
<melodie> Oh but I dl with wget :))
<melodie> can you here me laughing ?
<melodie> It does not matter, I can extract it ;)
<melodie> lol
<melodie> I'm kidding, but I can't burn my datas anymore
<mdke> :/
<mdke> annoying
<melodie> and could not find how come
<mdke> have you tried burning as root?
<melodie> even trying on the laptop with older datas I ripped in
<melodie> even on a new user account
<mdke> as root?
<melodie> no
<melodie> I just put the user 
<melodie> as belonging to all groups
<mdke> linux has some problems with burning iirc
<melodie> iirc ?
<mdke> if i recall correctly
<mdke> i think the solution is to burn as root
<mdke> "Important information: Linux-2.6.8.1 breaks CD/DVD writing for suid root applications [...]  If you have related problems, try to call cdrecord as real root or go back to Linux-2.4"
<melodie> see, when I copy repertories to the nautilus cdcreator
<mdke> (from homepage of cdrecord)
<melodie> it links the files instead of copying them
<melodie> then the message appears:
<melodie> Error wrong chain encoding
<melodie> when I click on 'grave'
<melodie> but I is only the latest aspect of the pb
<mdke> Burgundavia, alright?
<mdke> melodie, i don't know enough to help you, but I think you should try running a burning program as root
<judax> Greetings
<melodie> hum
<Burgundavia> yes, debugging an xchat craher
<mdke> hi judax!
<mdke> Burgundavia, aha
<judax> mdke: Hi
<melodie> the simpliest way would be trying that in cd line
<mdke> melodie, yes
<mdke> Burgundavia, i'm thinking of switching to irssi now
<melodie> so I have to go back to cdrecord man
<mdke> melodie, not really, you can run a graphical burner as root
<melodie> Yes I know 
<mdke> sudo graveman or su, graveman
<melodie> or start the file navigator as root, (or sudo) and use the nautilus burner
<mdke> yes
<mdke> but I don't trust that burner that much
<melodie> I just changed it for a new one :)
<melodie> I get the same I/O errors, and on laptop too
<melodie> I think the config files must be rewritten
<mdke> have you tried burning at a lower speed?
<melodie> yes
<melodie> 4x
<melodie> with 4x media
<mdke> ok i have no more ideas
<mdke> but if you want to get involved with editing that documentation, that would be mega cool
<melodie> what do you get when graving ?
<mdke> graving?
<melodie> sorry
<melodie> burning
<mdke> it works
<melodie> (I'm a frenchy)
<mdke> *grins* i saw that
<mdke> your english is fine
<melodie> do you have ATAPI devices ?
<melodie> by the way, I'm on irssi, it's really cool
<mdke> i need to experiment ways to change the look
<melodie> Edit/Current profile
<melodie> Tab coulours or effect
<melodie> It changes the look of xterm
<melodie> that's what you mean ?
<mdke> i dont have xterm
<melodie> ?
<melodie> what do you have ?
<mdke> well i have it, but i don't use it
<mdke> aterm
<melodie> I don't know aterm
<melodie> so I can tell you for xterm 
<melodie> or for the Kde Konsole if I remember how it is :)
<mdke> presumably I can change colours for irssi somewhere
<melodie> if you have a few menus in aterm...
<mdke> no, i just want to change irssi colours
<melodie> maybe in it's specific config file somewhere ?
<mdke> yeah
<melodie> If you find out, it can be a nice little how-to :)
<mdke> good thinking
<melodie> :)
<melodie> about burning, could you tell me if you tried all sorts ? such as audio too per example ?
<mdke> i don't burn much
<mdke> the occasional iso
<melodie> what do you use when you backup datas ?
<mdke> network
<melodie> from the lan you mean ?
<mdke> yus
<melodie> ok
<melodie> that's the solution I'm thinking about to resolve momently
<melodie> There would also be a need for a step to step doc with the graphic inferface and snapshots to configure a lan
<melodie> mdke: what kind of documentation work do you do ?
<mdke> i am not really very technically good
<mdke> i have done menial tasks on the wiki
<mdke> and a little bit of editing on some of our docs
<mdke> i like organising
<mdke> i helped organise the translations of our stuff for hoary, hopefully for breezy there will be more
<melodie> I notice there seem to be more and more translations on the french official wiki
<mdke> yes
<mdke> the french team is doing good work
<mdke> website is nice too
<melodie> I read boths, but reading in french is more comfort
<melodie> yes, the site looks good
<melodie> and many users don't grab english too much
* mdke nods
<melodie> so it's nice for them too
<melodie> nods ?
<mdke> to nod is to move the head up and down, to signify agreement
<melodie> yees!
<mdke> whats that in french
<melodie> I didn't know thanks! :))
<melodie> I have to think about an equivalent
<melodie> 'hocher de la tte'
<mdke> ok
<melodie> but no direct equivalent to get it short
<melodie> do you talk french ? 
<mdke> non
<melodie> lol
<mdke> je parle la francais tres mal
<melodie> not so bad ;)
<melodie> well for the doc question, I think I could do two things
<melodie> as you sayd, I could file a bug somewhere about the doc from the cdrtool-docs package
<melodie> and I could try to register on the Ubuntu ml to post my questions
<melodie> I didn't try it yet
<melodie> and with a little luck maybe 
<melodie> some more advanced people
<melodie> than the ones on the Ubuntu french forums might have good answers
<melodie> on precise questions
<melodie> ?
<melodie> do you know the ml a little ?
<mdke> erm
<melodie> erm ?
<mdke> the ubuntu-users one?
<mdke> i don't know it much
<melodie> Ithink so
<mdke> its good tho
<mdke> also ubuntu-fr
<melodie> the chan ?
<mdke> ML
<melodie> ah ok
<melodie> cause when I go to the chan with questions 
<melodie> there are mostly more newbees than I
<mdke> ah
<melodie> not all, but mostly
<melodie> It's nice to help also, but I've got to get out of trouble too :)
<mdke> yeah
<melodie> ok, I'm going to quit now, need to sleep :)
<mdke> cool
<mdke> we're always here
<melodie> thank you :)
<melodie> I'll try to come give news for the doc project
<melodie> you didn't say: what devices do you use that go well for burning ?
<melodie> just to know if the same as mine :)
<mdke> erm
<mdke> how do I find out?
<melodie> no, do you have scsi drives or atapi ? just that 
<mdke> i _think_ atapi
<melodie> ok, I'll go deeper in the question on a mailing list :)
<melodie> thank you very much, until next :)
<melodie> and good night this time 
<melodie> bye bye ^^
<matt_> sorry all
<matt_> playing
#ubuntu-doc 2005-06-29
<mdke> wb jeffsch 
<jeffsch> mdke: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda
<mdke> jeffsch, language packs?
<jeffsch> you wanna do the xml vs html thing at tb?
<mdke> i would like a docmeeting on it first
<mdke> but in principal yeah sure
<mdke> the reason I wanted to go to TB was basically to make them start to see us working together as a team
<mdke> us = docteam and -devel
<mdke> ping mkde
<mdke> mkde how is it going
<robitaille> hummm...very interesting conversation this afternoon between mdke  and mdke :)
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> just trying to figure out irssi
<mdke> thinking of using it permanently from now on
<robitaille> same here.  I switched last night from xchat to irssi
<robitaille> often I have to access irc remotely from my home machine, and doing it with xchat was a killer
<mdke> *grins*
<mdke> i'm gonna use screen
<mdke> that was the killer which provoked the change
<mdke> do you use it?
<robitaille> life would be so much easier if irc was available at work....
<robitaille> never used screen
<mdke> it allows you to keep a terminal even if you lose X
<squinn> And it's good for when you need someone to hack into comp.
<mdke> so you can run irssi in it, mark yourself as away, ssh in and check your messages
<squinn> Like for teck support.
<squinn> tech
<mdke> yeah?
<squinn> yep.
<mdke> are you saying its makes my computer insecure?
<mdke> its/it
<mdke> ok am officially switched to irssi
<robitaille> it works pretty well.  I still have to get use to some of the keyboard shortcuts.
<mdke> yeah i just restarted X
<mdke> its so cool
<robitaille> next step is to use mutt and elinks, then you don't need X anymore :)
<mdke> yes
<mdke> mutt will be next
<mdke> but i use a quite default ubuntu install on my laptop, which is what I use for email
<mdke> so I will continue with evo
<robitaille> I have been using mutt on and off for years.  But recently I started using thunderbird most of the time.  I'm sure I'll get fed up in the the few weeks and switch back to mutt.  I always do...
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> does it do gpg?
<robitaille> yes
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> and you get to look geek too
<mdke> i am test running enlightenment right now
<Burgundavia> I just killed about 30 mono threads and beagle
<Burgundavia> went from 100% ram usage to about 20%
<mdke> lol
<mdke> breezy :D
<Burgundavia> stupid beagle/blam bug
<mdke> and Burgundavia call's me crazy for running gentoo
<Burgundavia> running gentoo is crazy
<Burgundavia> because when Breezy releases I will have a stable system, and you will still have gentoo
<mdke> nah
<mdke> you'll have a stable system for 2 weeks
<mdke> then you'll be on breezy+1
<Burgundavia> I waited a month to jump to breezy
<mdke> you have more aggregate instability ;)
<Burgundavia> depends what breakage they plan for breezy+1
<mdke> heh
<robitaille> I still haven't swtich to Breezy.  I run it in a 2nd partition, but it still feels a bit too unstable for "production" work (a.k.a to use by the rest of the family at home)
<Burgundavia> my brother is still on hoary
<Burgundavia> today nautilus was borked
<Burgundavia> until I restated it and killed all the zombie threads
<Burgundavia> now I have desktop wallpaper again!
<mdke> i had that here
<robitaille> yeah, hoary's nautilus seems to freezy on me every few days.  It's a good thing I'm 95% of the time in the command line.
<robitaille> s/freezy/freeze
<Burgundavia> why does clock-applet use 35 mb of ram?
<Burgundavia> and FUSA uses 25
<Burgundavia> how about gnome-cups-icon at  36, and I don't even have a printer
<Burgundavia> or evo-exchange-storage at 39 mb. I neither use evo or connect to an exchange server
<mdke> bbl
<Kinnison> Burgundavia: they almost certainly don't
<Kinnison> Burgundavia: they almost certainly are using very little each
<Kinnison> Burgundavia: it'll be almost all shared
<Burgundavia> ok
<Burgundavia> Kinnison, what is new in your life?
<Kinnison> Burgundavia: Not much, I just submitted a merge to get Aranha actually generating content
<Kinnison> Burgundavia: and now I'm off to bed, trusting that it'll pass without me needing to handhold it
<Burgundavia> aranha?
<Kinnison> http://wiki.digital-scurf.org/Aranha
* Burgundavia now has right-click not crashing xchat!
<mdke> gtaylor...
<mdke> has written an article about Ubuntu!
<mdke> http://www.reviewlinux.com/articles/8/1/Ubuntu---A-New-Approach-to-Desktop-Linux
<robitaille> mdke:  you should subscribe to the sounder list.  Someone posted that url last night.
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> too much email
<mdke> but gtaylor comes in here, he is cool
<robitaille> it's a low-traffic list (generally...).  Look at Comment #7 from that article.  Someone arguying that XP/2000 is better than Ubuntu and this article is FUD :)
<mdke> yeah i saw that
<mdke> i won't say linux doesn't have some issues
<mdke> but windows _DOES_ need to be restarted frequently
<mdke> every time you install a simple card game
<mdke> and its also important to note that my flatmates wifi card doesn't work under XP, whereas my card works fine with reverse engineered hacked up drivers
<mdke> what was that program that will do some video recordings of your screen in swf or some format?
<mdke> istanbul maybe
* mdke goes to look
<mdke> good morning jsgotangco/squinn!
<jeffsch> hmmm... first mdke was talking to himself, and now he's answering his own questions....
<jeffsch> too much work, methinks
<mdke> heh
<mdke> i had the word turkey in my head
<robitaille> http://www.unixuser.org/~euske/vnc2swf/
<mdke> got there in the end
<mdke> robitaille: vnc is a bit tricky tho
<mdke> or can I do it localhost?
<jsgotangco> morning
<robitaille> I don't know; never tried  I just know that this is what was used for the Beagles demos
<jsgotangco> I LOOOVVEE MEDIAWIKI
<mdke> yes i watched those demos
<mdke> they were sweet
<mdke> i looove jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> you want a taste of my whip?
<robitaille> We all love mediawiki...let's fork the Ubuntu wiki :)
<mdke> jsgotangco: good work on DocteamProjects
<squinn> good [morning?]  jsgotangco and mdke 
<jsgotangco> i haven
<jsgotangco> i haven't even started
<mdke> jsgotangco: even better :D
<jeffsch> when you're done, there's the rest of the wiki :)
<mdke> what did you guys think of my wiki team email?
<jsgotangco> hmmm wiki janitors?
<jeffsch> i like the idea
<jeffsch> I started making a list of all the pages on CategoryDocteam that need some updating, revising, or rethinking
<robitaille> wiki farmers?
<robitaille> personally I think the idea ofa wiki team is a good one.
<jeffsch> the list got too long, so I gave up. They all need some love
<mdke> yes the docteam pages need love so that the team will get more hits :)
<jeffsch> there is also https://wiki.ubuntu.com/doc that we should consider
<mdke> yeah exactly
<mdke> henriks idea
<jsgotangco> hmm
<jsgotangco> this is too much for my brain to handle now
<mdke> ok
<mdke> reply on list whenever you fancy
<jsgotangco> there are far too many issues we have to address
<jsgotangco> the best way probably is to decentralize all work at the moment whoever wants to lead on
<mdke> too many?
<jsgotangco> and put it all together in the projects page so we know all what is happening
<jsgotangco> not just on the svn
<mdke> yeah IMHO that page should become the central page for us
<jsgotangco> so far i only see 5 names on the page and its all svn work
<jsgotangco> im sure wiki work will interest a lot of people even if they dont really have svn access
<mdke> the other thing I was thinking about is translation
<jsgotangco> (not all really like that work anyway)
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> philipacamaniac is keen on wiki work
<philipacamaniac> true dat true dat
<jsgotangco> so i guess its a good idea to put the wiki work as a team project
<jeffsch> yeah
<mdke> jsgotangco: lets wait and hear more opinions?
* robitaille also keen on doing some wiki gardening
<mdke> some may be contrary
<jsgotangco> sure
<jsgotangco> i'll just keep on improving the projects page and keep it updated as much as possible
<mdke> :)
<jsgotangco> but people who want to be involved are free to join in the projects anyway
<mdke> it looks sexy now
<mdke> thanks to your breezygoals theme
<jeffsch> projects page would be a good place for your hypothetical wiki team, mdke
<jsgotangco> yeah colors make wonders
<mdke> jeffsch: you don't think we should wait on it a little?
<jsgotangco> the "status page" is very dependent on the status id of svn docs
<mdke> yeah
<jeffsch> mdke: it's very easy to remove
<mdke> people responsible can generate previews and update status
<jsgotangco> wonder if mako was the one who generated them
<mdke> or maybe even autogenerate
<jsgotangco> its in mako's shell
<mdke> but manual generate is not v difficult if each member does it for their document
<jsgotangco> (wonder who did this before)
<jeffsch> where can the previews be hosted?
<jsgotangco> mdke, yeah but that means, their status must be standard as well in case they haven't checked the wiki
<jsgotangco> ill ask mako
<mdke> jeffsch: in our svn
<mdke> jeffsch: no?
<jsgotangco> no
<mdke> just build the html, link to it on the wiki
<mdke> why not?
<jeffsch> ahhh... dat right... there ishttp access to svn...
<jsgotangco> hmm
<jsgotangco> right
<jsgotangco> i forgot about that
<mdke> [https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/trunk/whatever review] 
<mdke> p*
<jsgotangco> we dont need mako's shell then
<jsgotangco> (those pages are extremely old in the first place)
<mdke> its cool to have auto, but if the representation thing works, it shouldn't be a big deal IMO
<jsgotangco> it shouldn't be difficult for people working on a page to generate the previews IMO as long as the document validates and has a proper stylesheet
<mdke> yeah i agree
<mdke> jeffsch is giving us an example ;)
<jeffsch> any second now...
<jsgotangco> i have no idea how to generate a script like that
<mdke> whoops
<mdke> doesn't work
<mdke> com/repos/trunk/styleguide/styleguide.html
<mdke> *coughs*
<mdke> i haven't quite got the hang of irssi totally yet
<jeffsch> hmmm... not working so well
<jeffsch> see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StyleGuide
<jeffsch> click on Preview...
<jeffsch> i get html source only
<mdke> yeah thats what i mean
<mdke> missing some top tags I guess
<mdke> get philipacamaniac to have a look at it, he is well good
<jsgotangco> i only get the source as well
<philipacamaniac> eh? lemme see 
<jeffsch> the html is good, it must be the server
<mdke> k
<mdke> interesting
<jsgotangco> hmm
<jeffsch> it is not sending proper mime type... should be text/html or some such thing, iirc
<mdke> guess we need someone to host it then, or have a word with elmo to get an apache server up
<jeffsch> http://docteam.ubuntu.com/
<mdke> yes
<mdke> good point
<philipacamaniac> agreed... the html is proper (although no dtd!)
<mdke> i guess someone can upload to that
<jsgotangco> or a linode server :)
<mdke> maybe henrik set it up at sean's recent request
<mdke> did everyone see greg's article?
<mdke> http://www.reviewlinux.com/authors/7/Greg-Taylor
<jeffsch> i saw it. it was good, but i don't know how he came up with 10 out of 10!
<jsgotangco> extreme bias
<jsgotangco> heh
<philipacamaniac> I have seen the same mime-type problems elsewhere in SVN-powered web repos
<mdke> bug maybe?
<philipacamaniac> don't know, the actual html that spits out is valid
<jeffsch> ok, i gotta go for a bit. must eat, and then.... Daleks!!!
<jeffsch> later
<jsgotangco> bye
<jsgotangco> have fun
<mdke> bye
<philipacamaniac> hasta
<mdke> first dalek episode?
<jeffsch> yep
<jeffsch> ok. now i'm gone. bye
<mdke> bye
<jeffsch> no wait, when you say first dalek episode, do you mean the one where the last dalek goes to the light side and then dies in the sun?
<jeffsch> or do you mean the penultimate episoed, which is on tonight?
<mdke> penultimate
<mdke> its the best episode by miles
<mdke> enjoy
<jeffsch> ok. that's the one. penultimate.
<jeffsch> ok. now i'm gone. honest.
<mdke> heh bye
<philipacamaniac> I tried that preview in lynx and the source came up...heehee stupid apache config
<jsgotangco> dalek?
<jsgotangco> heh let's tell that to elmo
<mdke> you know what a dalek is jsgotangco 
<mdke> tell me you do
<philipacamaniac> hmm...daleks...weird UK humor I suppose
<mdke> not humur
<jsgotangco> i have no idea
<mdke> *o
<mdke> its deadly serious
* mdke exterminates jsgotangco 
<philipacamaniac> okay then my googling has done me in
<jsgotangco> i can undestand american culture, but not english one
<philipacamaniac> http://www.daleklinks.co.uk/
<mdke> daleks are the mortal enemy of Dr Who
<mdke> they are time travellers created to kill
<robitaille> and they are on TV in Canada tonight :)
<jsgotangco> we're more fed on spiderman and spawn rather than Dr. Who and Death's head
<mdke> ah canada too
<mdke> awesome
<jsgotangco> when i was in sydney i was watching this comedy and i didnt get it at all
* robitaille used to watch Doctor Who on PBS every Saturday night
<mdke> i watched all the Dr Who's this series
<mdke> ooh
<mdke> check out the e17 login manager
<mdke> http://get-e.org/User_Guide/English_images/entrance.png
<mdke> bootiful
<jsgotangco> wow
<jsgotangco> but e is so 90s
<jsgotangco> hehe
<robitaille> I can't say I really like it.  Maybe it is the colours
<jsgotangco> it looks strangely like gorilla
* mdke grumbles about no taste
<mdke> OMG
<robitaille> reminds me of the BeOS-like theme I used to have  on Mandrake  on my work workstation
<mdke> do you guys just get a shitload of emails
<mdke> i just got 40
<mdke> in 2 mins
<jsgotangco> hmm
<jsgotangco> let me check
<philipacamaniac> from which list?
<mdke> bounce notifications from ubuntu-it
<mdke> jdub: ping?
<jsgotangco> mako jdub: something wicked is going on with ubuntu-users
<jsgotangco> mako jdub: i'm getting MANY bounces 
<jsgotangco> hmm same here bounce notifications
<robitaille> haven't got any bounce notifications with the ubuntu-ca list
<mdke> it must be caused by the problems at the weekend
<mdke> some of the bounces however I recognise as being posts which were validly posted to the list more than a month ago
<philipacamaniac> I'll check the forums, they're hooked up to the user list
<mdke> argh
<mdke> 80 emails now
<mdke> still counting
* philipacamaniac would unsubscribe and be gone with the evilness
<mdke> its only for the list i'm admin on
<mdke> i know jsgotangco and robitaille admin lists tho so that's why I asked
<jsgotangco> i admin 2
<jsgotangco> but quite low traffic
<robitaille> still not one on the ubuntu-ca list...but we are quite low traffic these days...
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> anyway
* mdke deletes em
<mdke> hope there is nothing screwy going on
<mdke> if jdub turns up, mention it
<mdke> i should go to bed its starting to get light outside
<jsgotangco> hehe
<jsgotangco> no!
<jsgotangco> do an all nighter!
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> nah i already haven't slept much
<mdke> cyas
<jsgotangco> later
<squinn> later jerome
<jdub> jsgotangco: yeah, i'm looking into it atm
<jdub> jsgotangco: you could remove yourself from the admin list perhaps, to avoid the mails :)
* jdub has received over 3000
<jsgotangco> yaahh
<froud> African Greetings
<froud> jeffsch: why do you checkin presentational formats to svn?
<froud> jeffsch: if I may make a suggestion. in svn you have a dir called build/ create your makefile so that people can run it and it will create the presentational formats in a build/styleguide/
<jsgotangco> froud, it was a test
<jsgotangco> we were finding a way to fix up DocteamProjects page
<jsgotangco> without using mako's shell
<froud> ok, do you know how it works?
<robitaille> anyone knows if the svg files in the old wiki are currently available anywhere in the new wiki? (http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-users/2005-June/039440.html)
<jsgotangco> mako's shell?
<jsgotangco> no idea
<jsgotangco> jeffsch thought that it might work since our svn does http
<jsgotangco> instead we got html code in the browser
<froud> the process is tho build the docs in html format in build/ then tar.gz and send it to mako
<jsgotangco> yeah, but mako is another layer
<froud> if you want to use the build dir I guess it can also work
<froud> but we should try not to put presnetational formats amongst the source
<froud> there is a logical reason
<jsgotangco> froud, it was a test, we're not going to do it again then
<froud> it because the src gets uploaded to the distro after we tag
<froud> jsgotangco: it ok, its not a big problem, but I wanted to mention it
<froud> otherwise we will endup with ppl doing checkin of presentational formats all over the repos
<jsgotangco> we want to make DocteamProjects give an overall view of what's happening
<froud> yes, understood
<froud> did you look at the xsl that creates the owner status
<jsgotangco> i haven't although thats in my todo list tommorow
<jsgotangco> (can't do everything at the same time)
<froud> OK, perhaps it may help if we just instate a simple make system like I did for hoary
<jsgotangco> if that would ease up things on people, it would be of great help
<froud> what have I done now
<froud> Hmmm sun released http://open-language-tools.dev.java.net
<froud> jsgotangco: do svn up
<froud> jsgotangco: then with pwd as trunk do make status
<froud> then look in build
<froud> you can now generate the status reports with this target.
<froud> The intention is for these docs to be hosted at http://docteam.ubuntu.com
<froud> that way you can just link from DocteamProjects
<froud> these reports may not be accurate for all docs at this time. why? because the reports are generated from the status attributes. Not all of which have been reset
<froud> Hope this helps
<froud> jsgotangco: does it work for you?
<froud> c you later
<jsgotangco> hmm nice script by froud
<jsgotangco> sean seems to be working as usual
<mdke> which script is that?
<jsgotangco> the make script for status
<jsgotangco> (it relies on the status id of the docs though, so it should be made consistent)
<jsgotangco> some docs still won't play nicely with it
<mdke> ok
<mdke> well if you or he posts what he has done to the list, i'm sure that will help people
<jsgotangco> i'll fix first the status ids
<mdke> wiki page looks nice
<jsgotangco> feel free to mess it up with better stuff
<mdke> would it be ok if I merge the three tables?
<jsgotangco> hmmm
<jsgotangco> how about the wiki projects?
<mdke> separate heading?
<jsgotangco> let's try the separate heading first
<jsgotangco> i was thinking if we merge the tables, we should at least assign priorities to the projects
<jsgotangco> just for distinction
<mdke> also I think learnlinux should be removed or at least be marked as deferred
<mdke> its not a docteam project
<jsgotangco> i agree but i prefer it if we merge tables, we should have to tag the docs according to priority
<mdke> how come?
<jsgotangco> so we'll know which docs will need to be finished much sooner rather than people doing a doc that is not bound to be shipped
<mdke> well all the other docs should be shipped right?
<mdke> just learnlinux (not our project) and adminguides (deferred) won't ship
<jsgotangco> sure but not all
<mdke> ...
<jsgotangco> the priority tag is just my opinion
<jsgotangco> i think we know well what docs are prioritized, but not the community as a whole
<mdke> well i think its a good idea, but i don't think the lack of those tags stops us from merging the tables right now
<jsgotangco> i don't mind the table merges though
<mdke> yay
<jsgotangco> i have to rush for dinner
<jsgotangco> there is a forecast of heavy rain later
<mdke> okey dokey
<jsgotangco> yay
<mdke> have a nice dinner
<jsgotangco> (my wife is leaving in 2 days for KL)
<jsgotangco> i should make up
<mdke> make up?
<jsgotangco> mdke, merge the tables if you want to, i'll just add more stuff to the page when needed
<mdke> yay
<mdke> thanks
<jsgotangco> (like separate them again to 3 priority tables)
<jsgotangco> HEHEHEHE
<jsgotangco> jk
<mdke> ;)
<jsgotangco> ok im out
<jsgotangco> later
<mdke> byeeeee
<mdke> wiki is a bit slow again
<rob^> does anyone else currently have problems with the faq?
<rob^> in revision 1199
<rob^> (the latest)
<mdke> what sort of problems?
<rob^> none of the links work
<rob^> in yelp
<mdke> right
<mdke> that document is very much work in progress
<rob^> yeah, just checking I hadn't done something wrong
<mdke> rob^: it was ported from ubuntuguide.org but the author does not maintain our version, only the online version
<rob^> ah
<mdke> perhaps we should discuss the status of that document at the next meeting
<mdke> it is gonna be hard to maintain without the author
<mdke> it crashes my yelp right now
<rob^> ah
<rob^> are the meetings here?
<mdke> they will be in ubuntu-meeting
<mdke> hopefully every 2 weeks
<rob^> cool
<mdke> jerome will organise them i think
<froud> mdke: question?
<mdke> yes shoot
<froud> mdke: I understand you would not like to have the profiling method in docs
<mdke> i have some concerns about it, but I don't know a lot about it
<mdke> i'd like to discuss it definitely
<froud> mdke: that's ok, what if I split install guide and make a gnome install and a kde install?
<mdke> froud, well I don't have any technical problems with the profiling, i was just concerned about new users finding it difficult
<mdke> i think if they were split it might be easier to manage
<mdke> what do you think?
<froud> mdke: I explained it in long message :-) but if ppl don't grep it then we will have to rm it
<froud> I am happy to do this
<froud> I have been pondering things
<mdke> froud, ok to find out what everyone thinks I'd suggest discussing it at the next meeting, hopefully jerome will organise one for next week
<mdke> i know its possible to work in profile, but it might be a little more complex, that's all
<froud> and as I now see it, perhaps we have gnome working in the gnome way and kde working in the kde way
<mdke> hmm
<froud> technically possible and from a human perspective it seems that people will grep it better
<mdke> ok so are you happy to raise it at the meeting?
<froud> I was hoping for a more eligant solution, but hey can't have everything
<froud> mdke: I respect all the meeting stuff, but it really slows down waht can be done
<froud> I have to wait a week just in order to impliment a 30 min change
<mdke> froud, its a team decision IMO
<mdke> it should have been a team decision in the first place
<froud> mdke: not going there
<froud> what people need is to write
<mdke> well you asked my opinion, so my opinion is, the team should decide on the profiling issue at a meeting
<froud> for gnome the docs are there
<froud> Hmm, ok, when did you say that meeting is?
<mdke> i hope they will be 2 weekly
<mdke> so that will mean next week
<mdke> but its up to jerome
<froud> Hmm I thought it was a team decision :-) dig dig
<froud> Ok well thanks
<mdke> well its difficult to have a meeting to decide when the next meeting will be
<froud> email?
<mdke> yes
<froud> send message
<mdke> hopefully they will be a regular affair now so it won't be necessary
<mdke> but jerome said he would take care of it
<froud> I reallydontmind, so long as meetings are short, focused and dont just add to the overhead
<mdke> i know it will slow things down for you, but it will help the team
<froud> well I will do what I can for now, so at least ppl can get doing
<mdke> what do you mean?
<froud> mdke: can you test the make status target
<mdke> froud, i tried it earlier, but it didn't work on my gentoo machine
<froud> Hmm your xsl's are not in the same place as debian
<mdke> possibly due to a path issue
<mdke> yeah exactly
<froud> wanted to use xml catalogs for that kind of resolving, but they are complcicated and made it hard for newbies to get setup
<mdke> is it possible to get it to use an xsl in the ubuntu-doc/ archive itself?
<mdke> that would make it distro non-specific
<froud> yes I can import docbook xsl's and re-engineer from there
<froud> you want that?
<mdke> would that be a lot of work you think?
<froud> no
<froud> about 15 mins
<mdke> any disadvantages?
* froud wonders if this is another team decision :-)
<froud> none really
<mdke> well i don't really know enough about docbook to comment
<froud> it does not really matter where the xsl's are
<froud> so long as the system can process with them
<mdke> you could try it maybe
<froud> I have about five installations on one of my systems to cater for various things
<mdke> heh
<froud> ok where would you like them?
<mdke> i have no idea
<mdke> where do you think is best?
<mdke> teamstuff?
<froud> thinking libs/ all the other xsl custom layers are there
<mdke> whatever you think best
<froud> libs/docbook xsl
<froud> libs/docbook-xsl
<mdke> also if you can tell the list about the target, we can use/test it
<froud> hmm ok
<mdke> :)
<mdke> right I'll bbl
<froud> what about I do libs/currentxsl where currentxsl is a link to docbook-xsl in vendor/
<froud> hmm, but then everyone needs vendor
<froud> no bad idea
<froud> OK
<froud> I 'll figure it
<mdke> froud, saw the make status email, same error here for me
<froud> what box you on?
<mdke> http://pastebin.com/302502
<mdke> gentoo
<froud> cant work on gentoo
<froud> as you said
<mdke> oh i c
<mdke> ok
<froud> paths != to ubuntu
<mdke> yeah
<froud> but you can test it
<mdke> so did you decide not to change that?
<froud> check /usr/share/xml/docbook
<froud> you shoul dhave stylesheets or current or something down there
<mdke> no
<mdke> they are somewhere else
<mdke> maybe I can copy em
<froud> no just change the path in html-cust.xsl
<froud> you should see my suse one commented out
<froud> you can do the same
<mdke> ah kewl
<mdke> i _think_ mine are in /usr/share/sgml/docbook/xsl-stylesheets-1.66.1/
<froud> yes that is also possible, but that is a very old location for them
<froud> wonder why gentoo did not update it
<froud> well we can ask the same of ubuntu/debian?
<mdke> i guess maybe its an older version of docbook
<mdke> so I put the path in the "imports" section of html-cust?
<froud> yeah that should do it for you
<mdke> is it this one:
<mdke> /usr/share/sgml/docbook/xsl-stylesheets-1.66.1/html/profile-chunk.xsl?
<mdke> oh no
<mdke> xhtml
<mdke> froud, can I add it or do I need to comment out the other import line?
<froud> yes
<froud> html not xhtml
<mdke> ok
<mdke> crap
<mdke> doesn't work
<mdke> this is the part of the file:
<mdke> http://pastebin.com/302505
<mdke> i get this error:
<mdke> warning: failed to load external entity "/usr/share/xml/docbook/stylesheet/nwalsh/current/html/docbook.xsl"
<mdke> cannot parse /usr/share/xml/docbook/stylesheet/nwalsh/current/html/docbook.xsl
<froud> you still have the wrong path
<mdke> why is it looking for the nwalsh thing if that is commented out?
<mdke> is it calling another file?
<froud> <!-- <xsl:import href="/usr/share/xml/docbook/stylesheet/nwalsh/current/html/profile-chunk.xsl"/> -->
<froud>     <!--<xsl:import href="/usr/share/xml/docbook/stylesheet/nwalsh/xhtml/profile-chunk.xsl"/>-->
<froud> 	ADD YOURS HERE
<froud>     <xsl:include href="common-cust.xsl"/>
<froud> Hmmm I see
<froud> now
<froud> my mistake
<froud> in Makefile
<froud> look at constant NWDBXSL
<mdke> ok
<froud> chang ethe SuSE one to your path
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> doing
<froud> try that
<mdke> that seems to be working better
<froud> :-)
<mdke> yeah works nice
<froud> cool
<mdke> froud, preview next ;)
<mdke> does the make html thing still work?
<froud> huh?
<froud> no
<froud> working on it
<froud> doing seperate make systems
<froud> 1 gnome 1 kde
<mdke> right cool
<froud> drive from trunk/Makefile
<mdke> why separate?
<mdke> maybe just a "make preview" like this "make status"
<froud> but me thinks you chaps dont want HTML only us KDE farts :-)
<mdke> well the DocteamProjects page is supposed to link to html previews
<froud> yes
<froud> the previews should and stus should go on docteam.u.c
<froud> requested status update on that today
<froud> mdke: did you grep what I mean?>
<mdke> ?
<froud> DocteamProject > Status + Previews @ docteam.ubuntu.com
<froud> asked hendrik if he could arrange that
<mdke> sure
<mdke> there is already an apache server there
<froud> yes
<froud> and the url is there
<froud> yes need permission to do it
<mdke> well perhaps henrik has upload
<froud> and of course some way to make this build on schedule at thathost
<mdke> once the make status and make preview is done he can upload from /build
<mdke> yes that shouldn't be hard I guess
<froud> yes, that would be a manual way
<froud> I was thinking more automatic
<mdke> i'm sure auto won't be hard
<froud> since svn is on that box
<mdke> yep
<froud> otherwise linode it
<mdke> yep
<mdke> or linode both
<froud> and we can do svn build from there
<froud> no svn stay at canonical
<froud> canonical server good
<mdke> heh
<mdke> team decision :p
<mdke> jerome has been making linode noises for svn
<mdke> anyway, no big deal
<froud> cant see why we need it
<mdke> good work on the make status
<froud> He he your gonna kill me later
<froud> but then speed does kill
<mdke> y?
<froud> :-)
<froud> c ya later
<squinn> good day, folks..how are ya?
<froud> cooking with gas, being my normal troublesome self, and you
<squinn> i'm alright
<squinn> gas can't be cooked with right now, it's raining. typical florida summer.
<froud> yeah that place has so much water
<squinn> I'm working on Bugzilla, just a little bit and about to try to package something for the first time. Then will submit some patches to user guide.
<squinn> Since I reached good stopping point in GTA
<froud> cool, gnome userguide
<froud> lekker
<squinn> Hey, Sean [froud] , question?
<froud> ya
<squinn> When will I know if my commit account is ready?
<froud> he he dude, that depends on elmo, sometimes it takes a day sometimes a week. As I said, you should give it about a week. Then we will start looking for elmo and send heat seeking missles after him.
<squinn> Ooh, yay. Violence and destruction haha
<mdke> squinn, you should feel free to send patches in the meantime!
<mdke> we'll apply em quick
<squinn> I am working on some right now, mdke.
<squinn> And froud, I'm about ready to send the new gnome-doc-utils to its Ubuntu package maintainer.
<squinn> So he could put it in breezy.
<froud> cool stuff
<froud> [ANNOUNCE]  OUTLINE TO KUBUNTU USER GUIDE OPEN FOR CONTRIBUTIONS https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/trunk/kde/kuserguide/C/kuserguide.xml
<squinn> froud, you alive?
<froud> rocking and a cock'n
<squinn> alrighty
<squinn> i'm talking to shaunm on GIMPnet
<froud> yep
<squinn> he's the maintainer, developer, and sabdfl in regards to gnome-doc-utils.
<froud> and you want me to join
<squinn> nah.
<squinn> Just giving you an update of our talk.
<squinn> Now, the package we have in Breezy is 0.2.0.0-ubuntu1, and latest package is going to be 2.3.1
<froud> OK, so what's up
<squinn> rather
<squinn> 0.31*
<froud> yep
<froud> ... and
<squinn> I was under the impression thanks to GNOME cvs that this was out, so I went hunting to send it to its Debian maintainer.
<froud> ah, and
<squinn> I met up with shaunm to ask him where source was and he said it's not out yet.
<squinn> The big news is..it should be out by this weekend.
<froud> -)
<squinn> Which is AWESOME to here.
<squinn> hear.
<froud> yeah, its cool, but I have yet to see what it does to fix issues
<froud> is there a new feature list somewhere
<squinn> supposedly would fix endterm attribute
<mdke> squinn, the package will be in breezy in time
<squinn> uh, changelog on gnome cvs
<froud> cave my head in
<squinn> http://cvs.gnome.org/viewcvs/gnome-doc-utils/ChangeLog?rev=1.232&view=log
<squinn> froud ^
<squinn> mdke, i know
<mdke> it is difficult to rush the process, seb will take the package from cvs and put it in debian, then it will be synched with breezy
<squinn> mdke, i just learned how that whole process works from MOTUS
<squinn> MOTUs*
<squinn> I'm like the intern, if you will. Running errands for maintainers, etc.
<mdke> well that is up to you ;)
<squinn> So, I look at bugs on Bugzilla and Malone and file as such. Right now, I'm downloading latest amule and wxGTK and wxBase and firing them up to respective maintainers.
<squinn> It's fun,  I just gotta send this up to our maintainer who will send it to Debian.
<squinn> I could just go directly to Debian, but I like letting our guy or girl know what's going on.
<froud> Hmmm dude how would you like to do that for eSvn please
<squinn> eSvn?
<squinn> esubversion?
<squinn> oh, no esvn
<froud> http://esvn.umputun.com/
<squinn> will do, 
<froud> somewhere the debmaintainer lost it
<squinn> sure
<froud> magic dude
<squinn> debmaintainer = OUR deb maintainer or THEIR deb maintainer
<froud> both :-)
<froud> actually I think the debian one for esvn
<squinn> Well, send it to OUR maintainer for esvn then, right?
<froud> either way I think it will work
<squinn> what version do you want?
<squinn> .6.9 or .6.11?
<froud> I have a commit account for that project so if you need help
<squinn> I'm fine there.
<froud> stable is 6.8 but I hav eused 6.11 and found it good
<froud> squinn: give me a sect just try to get t he head dev
<froud> trying to raise him, gimme a sect I want to get an idea of the release schedule
<squinn> 6.10 is unstable and 6.11's probably more unstable
<squinn> i'll go with 6.9 because it's "testing" and it's got a .tar.gx
<squinn> .gz*
<froud> squinn: 6.11 is final end of this month
<froud> perhaps its best to wait until then
<froud> I may also have to update the user manuals
<froud> but 0.7.0 is in works and is buggy at present
<squinn> oh ok
<squinn> i'll wait till end of month
<froud> yep confirmed I have doc updates
<froud> and there is still bugs to be resolved. month end better. I will ping you
<squinn> k
<squinn> make sure it's before july 7th [or try to] 
<squinn> because that's when new packages from upstream stop
<squinn> wait, it doesn't matter
<squinn> if it's an increment up, then it's fine
<mdke> hey froud 
<froud> yep
<mdke> is there a list of different statuses for documents?
<froud> how do you mean?
<mdke> status="review"
<mdke> like, status="review a bit more"
<froud> yes
<mdke> something that lists all the possible statuses
<froud> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamWork
<froud> only those status's otheriwse the status reports dont work
<froud> if you add status must update scripts
<mdke> right
<mdke> ok i'll use reviewing
<mdke> thanks froud 
<froud> are mailing lists down again
<mdke> don't think so
<mdke> y?
<froud> mdke: did you get the messages I sent and the commits
<mdke> i got to [ANNOUNCE]  one
<mdke> to/the
<froud> Hmm OK
<squinn> yes and i got commits
<squinn> and annoucne
<froud> Hmmm must be the link to co.za
<froud> good news we have a femal deputy prime minister maybe oneday we will have a female prime minister
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> that didn't go well for us
<mdke> ;)
<froud> maggie did a great job
<mdke> hmmm
* mdke is not convinced
<froud> mdke: you want an argument :-)
<mdke> heh
<mdke> not about that
<mdke> :p
<mdke> ahhh
<mdke> been a while since I committed anything
<Burgundavia> we have had one as well
<Burgundavia> that didn't go so well for her
<Burgundavia> she got sandbagged by her previous male counterpart
<Burgundavia> and the populace reduced her party to 2 seats
<mdke> canada is progressive
<mdke> lots of women judges
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> and same-sex marriage
<mdke> argh!
<Burgundavia> even same-sex divorce
<mdke> heh
<froud> cool that's the way
<Burgundavia> that was kind of funny
<Burgundavia> the court ruled about marriage, but the divorce law explicitly said man/women, so they had to go to court to get that changed, in order to get divorced
* mdke nods
<mdke> well in this country they only abolished the law that said rape between married people was impossible in 1991
<mdke> so we're miled behind
<mdke> miled/miles
<Burgundavia> even Spain is pushing ahead with same-sex marriage
<Burgundavia> which surprised me
<mdke> yeah me too
<froud> nite
<mdke> night
<froud> mdke: when I wake up I expect to see that you have finsihed writing the Ubuntu User Guide, OK ;-)
<mdke> heh
<mdke> bit at a time
<froud> nite
#ubuntu-doc 2005-06-30
<judax> Greetings
<judax> be back soon
<froud> African greetings
<jeffsch> hey froud
<froud> hey jeffsch 
<jeffsch> say, which tools have trouble with <?yelp:chunk-depth 1?>?
<judax> Hey froud 
<froud> jeffsch: well you simply cant validate it
<froud> to validate you need to comment it out
<froud> why
<jeffsch> it always validated for me...
<jeffsch> with docbook 4.3 dtd anyway
<froud> using what xmllint
<jeffsch> yeah
<jeffsch> do other tools choke on it?
<froud> from Xerces
<froud> F A colon is not allowed in the name 'yelp:chunk-depth' when namespaces are enabled. quick-guide.xml file:/home/sean/ubuntu-docs/trunk/gnome/quickguide/C/quick-guide.xml 15:19
<jeffsch> interesting
<froud> if xmllint is not giving an error then it is a bug in xmllint :-)
<jeffsch> i was just gonna ask that :-)
<froud> the yelp: namespace is not enabled for docbook
<jeffsch> i'm thinking just delete the <?yelp:chunk-depth 1?> entirely for the styleguide because yelp is not a target for it
<froud> makes sense
<jeffsch> default chunk-depth in yelp is 1 anyway, isn't it?
<froud> yes, if you bump up the number the toc is collapsed to that level
<froud> or the yelp chunk is done at that level
<jeffsch> ok
<jeffsch> I split the style guide into several files because that's what GNOME style guide does
<jeffsch> and to learn a bit more about that stuff at the same time
<froud> yeah that's ok
<froud> you used external entities
<jeffsch> so it won't cause more problems than it solves, you think?
<froud> no, it is a std practice
<jeffsch> the only issue i found is in a validating editor such as jedit
<jeffsch> jedit doesn't like it with no dtd declaration
<froud> yes, because the instances are not valid and well-formed independantly
<froud> you must validate from the root
<froud> or you can use xinclude
<froud> that will make each xml-instance valid and well-formed
<froud> so you can validate the instance
<froud> but if you have xrefs to external instances then they will not resolve
<jeffsch> froud, I could use your help on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StyleGuide/DocumentStructure
<jeffsch> and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StyleGuide/DocBookConventions
<froud> jeffsch: is there such a thing as a constant structure?
<jeffsch> there are general conventions
<jeffsch> parts, chapters, sections, etc
<jeffsch> when to use article tag, when to use book tag
<froud> the most structure is in the doctype decl
<froud> and then the *info nodes
<froud> and the licenses at the end
<froud> what goes inbetween is variable
<jeffsch> yes, but it is easier to contribute and easier for readers if there is consistency of structure from doc to doc
<jeffsch> consistency is my main concern
<froud> Hmm, jeffsch I will try to see what is contanstant
<froud> perhaps this week end
<froud> I will add it in svn
<froud> is that ok
<jeffsch> no problem!
<jeffsch> i see that kde docteam has a list of docbook tags that are verboten in kde docs
<froud> yes
<froud> we are not tied to that
<jeffsch> we must take that into consideration in case any of our kde stuff goes upstream
<froud> yes,
<froud> for stuff that will be in vendor
<froud> if people want to work in that way
<froud> I try to do that on books like kynaptic
<froud> but lauri watts is strict
<jeffsch> i wonder how much of our stuff will be in vendor
<froud> nothing
<froud> vendor is a drop of upstream
<froud> for example I will drop kde docs in there
<froud> that way we can xinclude to our docs from there
<froud> but this is not without problems
<froud> kde also has a heap of external entities
<froud> I cant find them now
<froud> must speak to lauri about where to find them
<froud> :-)
<jeffsch> ahh, so if we do any work on kde docs in vendor, they will be for the kde docteam, and therefore according to kde style guide?
<froud> yep yep
<froud> but as I undersatnd it, this is a team decision :-)
<froud> so I am waiting for confirmation
<froud> I do have one problem though
<froud> to do with i18n
<froud> if we use xinclude from vendor/kde
<froud> how will people in rosetta translate the parts that are xincludes
<jeffsch> sounds to me like an argument against xincludes
<froud> so we can work with upstream and benefit, but there is a down side
<froud> it could be, but I preffer to look at it and resolve the problem
<froud> what I am thinking
<froud> preprocess docs that have xinlcudes and output to a completely resolved instance
<froud> commit that file to svn
<froud> upload that to rosetta
<froud> as pot
<froud> then on return route
<froud> disagregate
<froud> and move translations up stream to kde i18n
<froud> a bit hectic
<froud> but technically possible
<froud> what do you think
<jeffsch> I have no doubt that will work, but (speaking for myself only) it sounds like a complicated process with lots of steps
<jeffsch> each step is an opportunity for screw-up
<froud> yep yep, I agree
<jeffsch> my preference is to just copy the stuff over (if allowed by license) and make the docs our own
<froud> but do you understand the benefits of xi
<froud> Ok that is one way
<froud> have you ever seen howmany commits go to kde docs
<froud> upstream I mean
<jeffsch> no
<froud> Hmmm :-) many
<froud> now if you can harness the upstream comits
<froud> imagine
<froud> kde gets commit
<froud> we merge it to our vendor
<froud> our docs are updated
<froud> powerful stuff ehe
<jeffsch> yes, provided the upstream stuff stays applicable to us
<froud> the trickle down is enormous
<froud> well it does
<froud> I dont see the point in forking upstream
<jeffsch> what if kde changes standard menu, and kubuntu does not?
<jeffsch> it is like that in gnome
<froud> some stuff we can use and some not
<froud> what can we use
<froud> for example the stuff about the kicker
<froud> or parts of Kcontrol
<jeffsch> for example, it is more accurate to say that ubuntu desktop is gnome-based than it is to say it is gnome
<froud> I have a vision that using and repurposing upstream is good
<froud> jeffsch: agreed
<froud> therefore our inlcusion of upstream must be selective
<froud> and we cannot change xincluded parts that will move upstream to be ubuntu specific
<froud> when making changes in vendor, we must be careful
<jeffsch> hmmm.... careful is hard... more opportunity for screw-up
<froud> yes, but the power is huge
<froud> it totally leverages on the power of distributed development
<froud> this is wht baz is a long term must
<froud> with this power does come an amount of responsability
<froud> also consider the two camps work methods
<froud> at kde everyone with commit can patch a doc without informing th emaintainer
<froud> at gnome you must first speak to the maintainer
<froud> so one comes back to the question
<froud> perhaps it is better just to work upstream
<jsgotangco> perhaps
<froud> dunno
<froud> this begs the question, "What are k/ubuntu docs? What is there scope?"
<froud> s/there/their
<jsgotangco> you're more experienced on this what do you think
<froud> I think that we need to repurpose upstream to fit the k/ubuntu 
<froud> but with that comes challenges as you can see
<froud> if you look at the outline for kubuntu user guide
<froud> you will see that it follows the kubuntu desktop
<froud> granted this is kde
<froud> but it is not pure kde
<froud> while kde docs are pure kde
<froud> kubuntu has made changes to kde in order to make it kubuntu
<jsgotangco> i dunno maybe later, im in no mood lately to look into these docs
<froud> k/ubuntu docs are about the changes
<froud> jsgotangco: :-)
<froud> jsgotangco: it would make a good team debate :-)
<froud> it would provide vision, purpose and scope
<jsgotangco> i dont think i cannot contribute much in terms of technical stuff because i have none whatsoever
<froud> jsgotangco: I think it is important that more people undersatnd these issues
<froud> jsgotangco: otherwise I will make decisions and take more flack :-)
<jeffsch> jsgotangco: you are selling yourself short!
<jsgotangco> i think i'll just go back to translating from our team
<froud> jsgotangco: part of the reason why I am having problems at the team is because of things like this
<froud> it is hard for me to convey all these things
<froud> but equally I need help from team members to make such decisions
<froud> in the past nobody had such knowledge, but now I see people like jeffsch and gtaylor can help
<froud> I would hope more will be able to do so
<jeffsch> froud: then maybe slow down a bit... it may take longer, but in the end it will be stronger
<froud> jeffsch: yes, I now realise that I must slow down
<froud> jeffsch: but that has risks
<jeffsch> if the technical hurdle in infrastructure is too big at the beginning, then much time is spent overcoming that hurdle
<froud> jeffsch: the risk is that much work gets done without consideration and then has to be changed sometime in the future
<froud> jeffsch: yes, and no writing :-(
<froud> jeffsch: historicaly I made a technical decision because nobody else could
<froud> as you can see, that has implicantions
<jeffsch> froud: yes... you jumped too far ahead for us
* jsgotangco goes back in a corner doing work
<froud> yes, and this is why I ask ppl to read Docbook XSL the complete guide
* jeffsch is glad that at least *somebody* is doing work! :-)
<jsgotangco> *paid work*
<jeffsch> wow! what's that like?
<froud> Hmm jsgotangco my pay check is a long way off
<froud> jsgotangco: as you know ;-)
<jsgotangco> don't make me feel worse
* froud gives jsgotangco  a love bug hug
<jeffsch> hey jsgotangco, look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StyleGuide/WritingForInternationalAudience
<jeffsch> it's pretty much empty, and I have no experience working with translations
<jeffsch> I was hoping that you and mdke could make a contribution to this section of the style guide
<jsgotangco> i will research on the styleguide of others, i have no experience on doing this
<jeffsch> see the gnome style guide. I was thinking of stealing a lot from the translation section of it
<jeffsch> but I dnon't know what parts are good and what parts are bad (if any)
* froud goes on school run
<jeffsch> applicable part of gnome style guide is here: http://developer.gnome.org/documents/style-guide/locale.html
<froud> jeffsch: you still there
<jeffsch> only for a couple more minutes
<froud> I wanted you to see something
<froud> can you svn up
<jeffsch> done
<froud> then with pwd trunk/ do make faq-gnome
<froud> its not totally working, but does what I want for now
<froud> then open the output file pr01.html
<froud> <sect1>
<froud>             <title>Text Editing</title>
<froud> now compare it to in the faqguide
<froud> from line 69
<jeffsch> it's profiled
<jeffsch> i'm guessing. i didn't actually look at it :)
<froud> yes, so now people can see w orking example ofhow profiles work
<froud> xsltproc --xinclude --stringparam profile.os "gnome" --stringparam base.dir $(FAQBASE)  $(HTMLXSL) generic/faqguide/C/faqguide.xml
<froud> if profile.os "kde" then only kde is output
<jeffsch> say, to change the topic, why do the gnome types use C instead of en?
<froud> I dunno
<froud> strange stuff
<froud> but we get a wanted error in our build ;-)
<jeffsch> is there any reason why we have to use C?
<jeffsch> will it interfere with anything?
<froud> what the error
<froud> no, the docbook xsl will default to en
<jeffsch> it's not the "expected error" that bothers me.
<jeffsch> it's C instead of en that bothers me
<froud> oh
<jeffsch> it complicates things
<froud> its a gnome thang
<froud> agreed
<froud> what can I do :-)
<jeffsch> if we didn't use C. if we used en instead, would it break anything?
<froud> you have a suggestion
<froud> not for us
<froud> if we are shipping html
<froud> if we ship xml then gnome wants C
<jeffsch> yo mean yelp won't do en?
<froud> no yelp does not know about en on C
<froud> only C
<froud> :-)
<froud> I am not sure of the reason for C as apposed to en
<froud> I just accepted it and made a work around
<jeffsch> ok. i have to run. c ya
<froud> I am already in enough dwang with gnome stuff, don't really want more
<froud> ok c ya
<froud> me gone to for awhile c ya'll later
<jsgotangco> night all
<froud> night
<mdke> night jsgotangco :)
<mdke> morning everyone else
<froud> afternoon is after 12 here :-)
<mdke> nearly 12 here too..
<mdke> still
<jsgotangco> oh yeah
<jsgotangco> hmmm
<jsgotangco> froud, please no infrastructure debates again :(
<froud> why, jeffsch asked
<mdke> nothing wrong with talking about em
<mdke> jsgotangco, will you sort a meeting next week btw?
<jsgotangco> ok nvm
<jsgotangco> hmm a 2-week interval meeting is a good plan
<jsgotangco> we still have to sort out some open issues
<mdke> yes
<jsgotangco> Styleguide for one
<mdke> next week then
<rob^> when is the next meeting planned?
<mdke> yeah styleguide number 1 on agenda ;)
<jsgotangco> let me check my calendar
<mdke> maybe thursday again, if its a good day for peeps
<jsgotangco> hmmm
<jsgotangco> 30th?
<rob^> what time zone are you in?
<jsgotangco> im in a horrible +8 time zone
<rob^> ah
<jsgotangco> we can revolve around 12UTC and 22UTC
<rob^> +10 here
<jsgotangco> but that would leave jeffsch if we do 12UTC
<rob^> kilo
<jsgotangco> i don't mind 22UTC though
<jsgotangco> (6AM)
<rob^> that makes it 8am here
<froud> mdke: what time is that for us?
<mdke> 22utc is 23 my time
* froud is hopeless at thse thingy's
<mdke> midnight your time
<jsgotangco> alright, i'll call up a meeting again for the 30th 22UTC
<rob^> that time zone are you in froud 
<mdke> he's in SA
<froud> mdke: OK
<mdke> UTC +2 iirc
<rob^> oh.. midnight
<jsgotangco> anyone ok with 30th 22UTC
<rob^> yeah
<mdke> i am, although I'm sorry for you jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> its ok
<jsgotangco> 6AM the sun is already up
<jsgotangco> i can't do 12UTC because jeffsch for sure won't be able to attend
<jsgotangco> ill put the StyleGuide on top list
<jsgotangco> before anything else
<jsgotangco> would a 2 week interval regular meeting be ok with you guys
<froud> +1
* jsgotangco embraces froud back with arms wide open
<jsgotangco> alright, ill whip up an agenda later and email when its done 
<jsgotangco> as usual, agenda will be open for suggestions
<jsgotangco> but open issues will be tackled first
<froud> I have no issues
<jsgotangco> no i meant past issues still open from previous meetings
<froud> well no new issues
<jsgotangco> great :P
<froud> all issues are with you guys :-)
<jsgotangco> argghh
<jsgotangco> gee thanks a lot
<froud> just teasing
<jsgotangco> hmmm koffice in kubuntu instead of ooo
<jsgotangco> interesting..
<rob^> yeah
<froud> yep
<froud> Riddell want KOffice
<jsgotangco> ill leave that to the kde expert (froud)
<rob^> you can always install ooo if you want it though
<froud> Not sure why he wants that
<froud> KOffice is not as ready as OOo
<jsgotangco> strange though unless Riddell wants a veryt KDE specific distro release
<froud> But I guess this is KDE thang
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jsgotangco> when i was with him and amu in sydney, they discussed a lot of very kde specific stuff
<froud> Dont mind either way
<jsgotangco> like appeal, etc.
<mdke> froud, we can discuss the profiling thing at the meeting
<froud> well Riddell is high up in the KDE heirachy
<froud> mdke: up to you dude
<froud> you have a working sample now
<mdke> yeah i think that's a good idea
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jsgotangco> sample?
<froud> yeah do make faq-gnome
<jsgotangco> ahh right
<froud> see the log
<froud> from morning my time
<mdke> ah cool
<froud> I suggest ppl look at it and try understand it b4 discussing
<mdke> but we can't always read the whole log
<froud> huh
<mdke> posting to the list helps
<froud> Hmmm OK
<froud> will do now
<jsgotangco> is this similar to make status
<mdke> wicked
<froud> yep yep
<froud> still have bugs to fix 
<mdke> we have lots of cool make tools now thanks to froud
<froud> need nice solution for image control
<mdke> froud, if you post em all to the list then everyone can use em
<froud> he he
<froud> slowly dude
<mdke> when they are finished sure
<froud> I just did the profile thing-a-ma-gingy to show you what I mean by profiles
<froud> I understand now that many ppl dont know what I am talking about onmany things
<froud> best way to show it is example
<jsgotangco> nice strategy
<jsgotangco> ok at least i can smile before i retire for the day
<froud> mdke:  btw about logs see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ForTheHasty
<froud> topic: irc
<jsgotangco> ok bye bye
<froud> nite jsgotangco 
<froud> um-pah, um-pah, um-pah-pah one of these days I'll be a dog
<froud> me thinks of food
<froud> later
<mdke> _froud_, yeah i know where the logs are, its in the topic too, just that we don't all have time to read em all
<mdke> gtg
<mdke> bbl
<Njal> Having a lil xml problem
<mdke> hi Njal 
<Njal> lo
<Njal> Been writing in the how to find sites of interest in the userguide.xml for gnome
<Njal> and i can't seem to get links working
<jjesse_> hyperlinks or links in the wiki?
<Njal> hyperlinks
<mdke> you make links by referring to entities in global.ent
<mdke> you should see plenty of examples in the userguide already, search for ulink
<Njal> I use this
<Njal> <ulink url="http://www.linux.org/groups/">Linux User Group's</link>
<jeffsch> the end tag should be </ulink>
<Njal> it didnt even like
<mdke> Njal, the best way is to look at existing examples in the document
<Njal> Dammit that was it, thanks, how did i miss that
<jeffsch> oh, and a spelling thing: it's Groups, not Group's :)
<Njal> kk changing that now
<jeffsch> mdke: howzit goin?
<Njal> um not sure if what i've wrote is good enough, should i just upload it to where ever?
<mdke> jeffsch, good thanks, you?
<mdke> Njal, you have to create a patch and send it to the list
<jeffsch> fine... except for the dalek nightmares! :-)
<jjesse_> hmmm can't understand why it won't let me be jjesse on this channel only allows jjesse_ :(
<Njal> Daleks? You watch Dr Who?
<Njal> KK patch, how?
<mdke> Njal, the way to check your work and create a patch is explained at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamStepByStepRepository
<jeffsch> Njal: yah
<Njal> jeffsch: It's awesome
<mdke> Njal, try and have a look at the Docteam pages, they are helpful and will save you time
<Njal> thanks for the link
<mdke> jeffsch, :)
<mdke> wasn't it awesome?
<jeffsch> yah. I can't wait for the finale.
<mdke> heh
<mdke> patience...
<mdke> here they've already started the adverts for the christmas episode
<mdke> weird
<Njal> Really
<Njal> When
<Njal> I need to know about the xmas one
<jeffsch> hmmm... a shift in the space/time continuum
<jeffsch> there's trouble afoot...
<jeffsch> the dr can
<jeffsch> the dr can't be far behind
* mdke nods
<mdke> i love the big bad wolf theme
<mdke> that was cool
<mdke> Njal, just a warning, don't tell jeffsch what happens in the last episode
<Njal> KK
<jeffsch> yeah. I won't get it until tuesday
<Njal> Where you live?
<jeffsch> canada
<jeffsch> vancouver
<Njal> ah, your not far behind us, i was under the impression that everyone was still on episode 6
<Njal> erm what's the email address i send my patch to?
<mdke> to the docteam list
<mdke> Njal, have you read the wiki page? :p
<Njal> Yes
<Njal> Though i will re-read it
<mdke> thanks
<jeffsch> mdke: can you help with https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StyleGuide/WritingForInternationalAudience?
<jeffsch> i don't have any experience with translation stuff
<jeffsch> maybe much of the content can come from http://developer.gnome.org/documents/style-guide/locale.html
<mdke> i don't have a lot of experience, but yes it sounds like that is a good idea
<Njal> patch sent
<mdke> thanks Njal 
<mdke> when it arrives we will check it out and submit it
<Njal> Would it be possible to get feedback on wether it's any good?
<mdke> yes
<Njal> thanks
<jeffsch> mdke: maybe if you just look at the gnome stuff, and see what jumps out as right and what is not so right
<jeffsch> then let me know, and then I'll do the ubuntu stuff
<mdke> looking now
<jeffsch> no rush
<mdke> one thing I was thinking about recently
<mdke> is the use of &quot; and &apos;
<mdke> because obviously in some languages they will not be used in the same way
<mdke> dunno what the answer to that is
<jeffsch> hmmm... i think the purpose of &quot; is to make sure that the same unicode code is used consistently
<jeffsch> the double quote has more than one code in the character tables
<mdke> yes
<jeffsch> sometimes " and other times smart quotes
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> i guess its down to the translator
<mdke> but sometimes translators don't know what to do with entities
<mdke> so far that gnome doc looks good
<mdke> lots of our documentation violates it ;)
<jeffsch> i suppose if we're not careful, some entities will need translating, and others won't
<mdke> exactly
<mdke> jeffsch, ok have read the gnome doc, looks good
<Njal> anyway i have to go
<Njal> i will talk later perhaps when i have something more to submit
<mdke> Njal, 
<mdke> your email hasn't arrived yet
<Njal> It's been bounced pending mods decision
<mdke> Njal, you're not subscribed to the docteam list?
<Njal> as a guest
<mdke> subscribing is a really good idea
<mdke> that way you find out what we are doing and so on
<Njal> I went through the subscription process
<Njal> i get emails from the list loads
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> if you're subscribed you should be able to post
<Njal> I know, i don't claim to know what's going on
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> list info is here: http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-doc
<mdke> what's your email address, i'll see if you're subscribed
<Njal> neilmunro@gmail.com
<mdke> you're not subscribed
<Njal> oh right
<Njal> I'll just re-join then
<mdke> cool
<Njal> that's really odd
<mdke> if you subscribed when the list was down, that might have been the problem
<Njal> ah
<Njal> im just waiting for the subscribe email
<mdke> k
<abelli_> halo mora.
<Njal> that's odd
<Njal> As soon as i log in here i get my confimation email that i am now a member
<squinn> hey, _froud_ 
#ubuntu-doc 2005-07-01
<mdke> evening all
<Burgundavia> salut
<Burgundavia> patch just went to the mailing list
<Burgundavia> not from me
<mdke> just downloaded it now
<mdke> will check it out
<mdke> i think its from Njal
<Burgundavia> more of my crazy ideas up on planet.ubuntu.com
<mdke> ok
<mdke> that patch is strange
<mdke> he has changed the title of the book ;)
<mdke> and uses ":p"
<Burgundavia> more a chatty style
<Burgundavia> might rub some people wrong
<squinn> Don't apply the patch in my opinion.
<Burgundavia> I wouldn't
<mdke> i won't
<mdke> but he wanted feedback so I will write to the list
<mdke> something jeffsch was saying earlier today made me think about style
<mdke> he posted the gnome guide to writing so that things can be easily translated
<mdke> it gave lots of good advice
<rob^> is the faq guide suppose to align with ubuntuguide.org or are we free to make whatever changes/additions as we see fit?
<Burgundavia> ubuntuguide.org will eventually pull out of our repo
<Burgundavia> so change the faq as you see fit
<mdke> ++
<rob^> ok good thanks
<mdke> we will need to work on it a LOT if its gonna ship
<Burgundavia> yes
<rob^> yeah.. well it needs to work in yelp atleast
<mdke> lots of unofficial and dodgy things will have to go
<rob^> yes
<mdke> rob^, no, that's not one of the things ;)
<rob^> hah
<mdke> rob^, we will discuss it at the next meeting, but maybe we'll ship our docs in html, in which case yelp will support it
<rob^> yeah
<rob^> is it normal, when I use xmlto to check it, for there to be Ubuntukubuntu each time it is written etc
<mdke> yeah that will be discussed at the meeting too
<rob^> ok good
<mdke> when Sean wrote it, he intended to profile it for ubuntu and kubuntu
<rob^> thats what I thought
<mdke> we will be deciding whether to continue with that
<rob^> good good..
<mdke> ok i'm for bed
<mdke> night all
<rob^> night
<jsgotangco> jeffsch!
<jsgotangco> oh hes out
<jsgotangco> hi
<jeffsch> jsgotangco!
<jsgotangco> jeffsch!
<jeffsch> you called?
<jsgotangco> i did but i forgot what i was about to ask
<jeffsch> that's ok. i forgot what i was about to answer
<jsgotangco> gyaahhh
<jsgotangco> oh wait
<jsgotangco> you're here might as well ask you the best time to set a meeting again
<jsgotangco> im putting styleguide on top of the agenda
<jsgotangco> 12UTC might be too much for you
<jeffsch> 14UTC would be ok
<jsgotangco> what time is that on your side?
<jeffsch> i'm at -0700
<jeffsch> it would be 7am
<jsgotangco> where is that in canada?
<jeffsch> vancouver
<jeffsch> west coast
<jsgotangco> say i wanna ask you something
<jsgotangco> if its ok with you (its not ubuntu related)
<jeffsch> i wanna answer
<jsgotangco> i'll pm
<jeffsch> ok
<jsgotangco> hey jeffsch, i just tagged Kubuntu Quick Guide "for review"
<jsgotangco> heh
<jsgotangco> its like 95% done
<jsgotangco> (just need to export an html preview of it)
<jeffsch> cool
<jeffsch> we should put previews on the meeting agenda
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jsgotangco> and clean up the status ids of docs
<jeffsch> yeah. there's a lot of administrative stuff that needs doing
<jeffsch> bureaucracy
<jsgotangco> haha
<froud> African Greetings
<Burgundavia> salut
<jsgotangco> salut
<jsgotangco> froud, i just tagged kubuntu quickguide as for review
<jsgotangco> (not sure if there is still anything to add on that book at the moment)
<froud> jsgotangco: I saw a few sections that need text
<jsgotangco> hmmm i missed some more?
* jsgotangco thought he got it covered last night
<froud> dunno you mean you wrote it already, last night
<jsgotangco> i did
<jsgotangco> its just two lines and two screenshots
<froud> ah cook be I have not goten to that, last night I just saw th emissing bits. perhaps you already fixed it while I was asleep
<jsgotangco> yeah i committed them earlier today
<jsgotangco> oohhh esvn looks awesome in Ion
<froud> lon?
<jsgotangco> its a wm similar to ratpoison
<froud> Ah, cool
<froud> yeah, 0.7.0 is gonna be a really cool release
<froud> did anyone test those make targets
<froud> cant figure out why the pictures dont work
<jsgotangco> i did
<jsgotangco> yeah
<froud> all the paths are correct but when I transform the path passed to the html is changed
<froud> cant figure out why this changes
<froud> guess I will have to ask on docbook-apps today
<froud> kak, Hmmm, ppl have vivid imaginations :-)
<jsgotangco> heh
<jsgotangco> i thought of this crazy idea, but i nevermind
<froud> ok you got me interested, what is it?
<jsgotangco> i was thinking of the qanda sets
<jsgotangco> but i remembered its silly to ship both formats
<jsgotangco> (but then who shipped about ubuntu in html in the 1st place)
<froud> hmmm no idea what you're talking about
<jsgotangco> heh like i said nvm
<jsgotangco> :D
<froud> about ubuntu had to open in FF from System menu
<froud> ok
<jsgotangco> do you have a crazy idea today
<mdke> morning campers
<froud> crazy day, no
<jsgotangco> mdke, hi
<froud> morn mdke 
<froud> jsgotangco: dont feel like working today, perhaps go do shopping, catch a movie, go for long lunch somewhere
<mdke> nice
<froud> mdke: did you, by chance, test the new make targets for kde
<mdke> haven't done yet
<froud> ok
<mdke> can do if you like
<mdke> is there a make all for everything?
<jsgotangco> i wish i can do that today
<mdke> problem is, I guess I'm gonna have to manually edit paths again in some stuff
<froud> would be nice, they work here, except of images, but will they work on another box. should?
<jsgotangco> (shopping, movie, long lunch)
<froud> jsgotangco: yep good to enjoy life
<mdke> froud, i am going to oxford today, so probably won't have time to do the editing of the docbook paths
<mdke> need to get on the road ASAP
<froud> hmm ok, if you see hendrik pls ask him about the docteam.u.c
<mdke> lol
<mdke> no plans to see him
<mdke> if I bump into him I will ;)
<froud> jeffsch: ping
<froud> jeffsch: see you made styleguide output build to build/ Thanks dude
<mdke> go jeffsch!
<jeffsch> go where? :)
<froud> jeffsch: I have a bug on the make targets
<jeffsch> ok
<froud> jeffsch: if you have time take a look and see
<jeffsch> the images thing?
<froud> I cant figure it out
<froud> yeah
<froud> the path is being out to images/ instead of ../../images
<jeffsch> now that you mention it, i had the same problem about a month ago
<froud> and
<froud> is it a stylesheet bug
<jeffsch> i can't remember the details
<jeffsch> but i didn't solve it :(
<froud> hmm
<jeffsch> at the time, i though it was due to my lack of knowledge
<froud> well take a look see
<froud> if you have ideas let me know
<jeffsch> yeah i will... tomorrow though
<jeffsch> or actually, later on today :) it'sjust after midnight...
<froud> cool
<froud> jeffsch: note that the xsl custom later for kde is in kde/libs
<jeffsch> ok
<froud> strange thing because the nav and admin graphics do show
<froud> jsgotangco: I marked several sections in kwick guide complete
<froud> you want them at awaiting review?
<jsgotangco> well if it passes on your standard, i guess the other sections are complete then
<froud> leave them review for now
<jsgotangco> yeah we could release the doc for hoary if its complete then do a rework on some stuff to breezy-fy it
<froud> yes you're right
<jsgotangco> (the last kubuntu kde update had new entries)
<froud> what 3.4.1
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jsgotangco> it even moved some stuff
<jeffsch> ok i sleep now. c ya
<mdke> night jeffsch 
<mdke> jdub, can you push through that docteam meeting summary email on ubuntu-news?
<jsgotangco> oh right
<jsgotangco> jdub, also, about that email on the upstream doc /packaging...
<mdke> nice point jsgotangco, jdub owes us an email!
<mdke> ok i'm off
<mdke> back sunday prob
<mdke> have fun!
<jsgotangco> byeee...
<jsgotangco> ION ROCKS
<froud> jeffsch: ping
<froud> strange thing
<jsgotangco> eh?
<froud> when I run the make targets on my suse box the images work
<froud> when I do it on ubuntu, they don't
<jsgotangco> that is strange
<jsgotangco> i will try in my wc
<froud> jsgotangco: what is your version onumber of docbook xsl
<jsgotangco> let me check
<froud> my suse boxes is running 1.65.1
<jsgotangco> im running 1.66.1.-1
<froud> Hmm that's the one installed with hoary
<froud> Bug?
<froud> in stylesheets
<froud> or the xsl's in hoary are borked
<jsgotangco> hmm it just makes a list of images in a text file
<jsgotangco> hmm i also noticed the xref link to the xml was passed on to the html
<froud> images file in not important
<froud> what path do you get in the html
<jsgotangco> for the images?
<froud> yes
<jsgotangco> give me a sec
<jsgotangco> <img src="images/C/kubuntu-remoteplaces.png" alt="Remote Places">
<froud> yes same here, but that is wrong
<froud> it should be <img src="../../images/C/kubuntu-remoteplaces.png" alt="Remote Places">
<jsgotangco> hmm the images are exported
<froud> as per the xml xref source
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jsgotangco> ../../
<froud> yes, I copy the images
<froud> nah this is a bug in 1.66.1-1
<jsgotangco> oh adi sent an email
<jsgotangco> to the list
<jsgotangco> froud, new make file?
<froud> huh?
<froud> see trunk/kde
<froud> jsgotangco: btw do you have computer dictionary installed
<froud> http://computerdictionary.tsf.org.za/dictionary/packages/computerdictionary_1.0-1_all.deb
<froud> jsgotangco: ?
<froud> would be nice if you could test it on the installation guide
<froud> if you can install it and then run make kin from kde/
<froud> in the output you should have a glossary section automatically populated
<froud> jsgotangco: ping
<froud> can you test it
<jsgotangco> wait
<jsgotangco> sorry
<jsgotangco> hold on
<jsgotangco> i was teaching someone to use mediawiki
* froud grabs his keyboard and hold on for dear life
<jsgotangco> what mediawiki?
<froud> no you said hold on
<froud> so I am doing just that
<froud> teasing
<jsgotangco> ok downloading
<jsgotangco> where does this deb file install?
<froud> here /usr/share/computerdictionary/
<jsgotangco> ok give me a minute, our dsl here is crappy
<froud> np
<froud> while it downloads take a look at generic/instalguide/C/installation-guide.xml
<froud> Look at end of xml file for
<jsgotangco> ok let me svn up first
<froud> <glossary role="auto">
<froud>         <glossentry>
<froud>             <glossterm>Dummy</glossterm>
<froud>             <glossdef>
<froud>                 <para>Now you see me, next you won't.</para>
<froud>             </glossdef>
<froud>         </glossentry>
<froud>     </glossary>
<jsgotangco> me copies that in kquickguide
<froud> ok, but see installation-guide.xml for examples of how to markup glossterms
<froud> broadcasts to the network for a <glossterm
<froud>                         linkend="D-d0e6764">DHCP</glossterm> server and waits for a response.
<froud> without glossterms you have no entries in the glossary
<jsgotangco> ok what do i do next make kqg?
* jsgotangco do make kqg
* jsgotangco tweedle dee tweedle dum
<froud> um me thinks you should try kin
<jsgotangco> hmm all?
<froud> I did not see glossterms in kqg
<jsgotangco> i put a dummy just now
<froud> yes but you must have glossterms in the doc
<froud> otherwise ithas nothing to add
<jsgotangco> how would i know if a keyword is in the dictionary
<froud> you check the dictionary src
<jsgotangco> ahh
<jsgotangco> ok i'll make kin now
<froud> oneday I will write a naviagtion tool for the dictionary
<froud> but for now its a case of searching the hardway
<froud> :-)
<jsgotangco> this is an example of a vendor drop right?
<froud> not quite, its a build dependancy
* jsgotangco checks out the output
<jsgotangco> OMG that is awesome
<froud> so it works for you. good stuff
<jsgotangco> hmm
<jsgotangco> wait a minute
<jsgotangco> i see the glossary
<jsgotangco> but where are the links to these keywords?
<froud> how do you mean?
<jsgotangco> ok Glossary has "DHCP"
<jsgotangco> i was hoping any word that said "DHCP" in the book has a link to the glossary
<froud> Umm there should be a link on one
<jsgotangco> #
<jsgotangco> Your network does not use a DHCP server.
<jsgotangco> #
<jsgotangco> no link on the DHCP word
<froud> hold lemme see
<jsgotangco> chapter 7
<froud> Ah ha, yes, I will fix that
<jsgotangco> what was wrong?
<froud> hold must fix and see
<jsgotangco> glossterms are awesome if we ship in html
<froud> very helpful saves you having to explain things like DHCP, DNS etc
<jsgotangco> yeah
<froud> hmmm
<jsgotangco> ?
<froud> the parameter settings are correct, so why is it not linking
<froud> hmmm
<jsgotangco> does it work in your suse?
<froud> no
<froud> not the links
<jsgotangco> so the word "DHCP" should link to the glossterm at the end right
<froud> yes, it can do that on the first occurance or all
<froud> I have set it to do so on first occurance only
<jsgotangco> hmm
<jsgotangco> question though
<jsgotangco> does yelp recognize glossterms?
<froud> no
<jsgotangco> (on xml that is)
<jsgotangco> ahh
<jsgotangco> i guessed right then
<froud> :-)
* jsgotangco curses yelp weakness
<jsgotangco> its funny though, the system images appear but not the screenshots
<jsgotangco> froud,
<froud> yes
<jsgotangco> <glossterm linkend="D-d0e6764">
<jsgotangco> D-dnnnnn is from the D.xml right
<froud> yeah
<jsgotangco> ok i will study it then
<jsgotangco> so when you do make kin
<jsgotangco> the xsl looks into /usr/share/computerdictonary?
<jsgotangco> and lifts appropriate entries at the bottom
<froud> yes
<froud> so glossary terms can be managed in a single place
<froud> and glossary sections can be auto generated
<jsgotangco> but that would also mean that everyone of us need to have the same glossary
<jsgotangco> to be able to use it
<froud> yes, I used computerdictionary as a build dependancy
<jsgotangco> ahh right
<jsgotangco> oh well this is interesting..
<froud> it will not crash if not found
<jsgotangco> if its not found, then there is no glossary entry in the html right?
<froud> Hmmm it is linking my side
<froud> right
<jsgotangco> ahh
<jsgotangco> oh well too bad i gotta run for dinner
<froud> but the section glossary is built 
<jsgotangco> will try to come back later
<froud> ok
<jsgotangco> right
<jsgotangco> section glossary but no entries
<froud> ye
<jsgotangco> great
<jsgotangco> see ya
<Njal> lo
<_froud_> hi
<Njal> hows everyone
<froud> I am OK, dunno about the others
<Njal> oh well
<froud> and you?
<Njal> Gota damn cold it's height of the summer and i have a cold
<froud> he he, winter here and I just got over the flue
<Njal> Where you live?
<froud> co.za
<froud> Johannesburg, South Africa
<Njal> Ah, York, England
<Njal> Who are the mods for the list?
<froud> no mods
<Njal> who looks and the material then?
<Njal> at
<froud> which material?
<froud> you mean mailing list?
<Njal> yes
<froud> Mmmm there are some people who are mailing list mods, but who I dont know. I dont get much into that stuff
<froud> why, is there a problem?
<Njal> I just submitted something and i was told via automated email a mod had to approve it
<froud> Ah yeah an attached file
<froud> sometimes they get stuck
<Njal> Yes, i was just wondering what the status was, since everytime i svt up the file isn't updated
<froud> send a message to the list without attachment and ask them to release it
<Njal> Ask them to add the file to the repo?
<froud> Uhm I think mdke had some comments if you have fixed them they resubmit
<froud> did you read matthews comments?
<Njal> I don't understand what you mean by if you have fixed them they resubmit
<froud> was it you who submitted a patch yesterday?
<froud> userguide.xml(revision 1216)
<Njal> that's the one
<froud> OK, Matthew reviewed it and gave comments.
<Njal> I havn't seen them
<Njal> Where can i access these comments
<froud> sec
<froud> http://news.gmane.org/gmane.linux.ubuntu.doc/
<Njal> ok
<Njal> thank you
<froud> np
<Njal> Hmm i better change my typing style :p
<froud> writing style, yes
<Njal> Im one of these people that try to make it as light as possible, i blame the ...for dummies series of book i always read if i need to learn something new
<froud> he he
<froud> try a neutral posture when writing
<Njal> I will
<Njal> It's learning the teretory really
<froud> yeah, not a big issue, dont be offended by it
<Njal> Im not
<Njal> Don't worry
<froud> good
<Njal> There's more to be done in this user guide than i first though
<froud> yes, lots to do
<Njal> I thought it was almost finished, cool i can get more done
<froud> nice because you can pick and choose your stuff
<Njal> yup
<froud> no no lots of rooms for things to do, enjoy ;-)
<Njal> Are we going for the whole images in the guide or is it all text?
<froud> you can use images
<froud> but b4 capturing
<froud> check file:/home/sean/projects/ubuntu/trunk/gnome/images/C
<froud> opps
<froud> trunk/gnome/images/C
<Njal> i don't have a trunk dir
<Njal> odd
<Njal> nvm found the images anyway
<froud> if the image is not already there, then create capture as per https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TakingScreenshots?highlight=%28ScreenShots%29
<froud> yes you may not have a trunk because you have not done a full checkout of the repos, just the trunk
<froud> if the image is there, then reuse it
<Njal> just to confirm we can't use figures of speach such as "There's more than one way to skin a cat", i can imagine how that might turn out translated
<froud> correct, don't use them
<Njal> ok
<Njal> another question, what CD buring software come's installed by default
<Njal> i know there's the one built into nautilus
<froud> that's it
<Njal> oh right
<froud> well stock apps that is
<Njal> We're using a stock OS for this though arn't we?
<froud> yes and apply human theme
<Njal> Yes i have just read that, but my system is dying i think i'll wait on the screen shot's until i can repair my system
<froud> OK, remember you can always use a qemu and the ISO
<Njal> huh
<Njal> ???
<froud> you can run linux under linux using an emulator and make captures from tha :-)
<Njal> Ah emulation, im not sure that my PC's good enough for that, it choked on the VMware demo
<Njal> What's the default mail client?
<Njal> Evolution?
<froud> yp
<Njal> hmm never got that to work
<Njal> will have to skip that section and let someone who can use it, write it
<froud> jjesse_: hi
<jjesse_> hiya froud
<jjesse_> running in windows mode today can't figure out why it won't let me connect at jjesse
<jjesse_> and keeps adding the _ to it :(
<froud> change your nick /nick jjesse
<jjesse> now need to figure out why it isn't letting me connect
<froud> now do /msg nickserv identify {$your-password}
<jjesse> already did it 
<froud> now do /msg nickserv identify {$your-password}
<froud> ooops
<jjesse> grin
<froud> so have you looked at the outline for kug?
<jjesse> very little, spent some time looking at it while i watched the piston loose last night
<froud> that sounds bad :-)
<jjesse> nba finals last game was last night 
<jjesse> and i'm from  michigan so detroit is my team
<froud> ok, no wonder
<froud> well do take a look and see what you think. Add as you feel required
<jjesse> will do its on the schedule for this weekend
<froud> cool
<froud> havenot seen gtaylor around
<froud> jjesse: btw you now make make targets for the kde stuff
<froud> try them and send feedback
<jjesse> ok cool
<Njal> Um on the external drive bit does this include USB 'dongles'
<froud> how do you mean?
<Njal> There is a section that is called external drives as in hard drives does this include thet popular USB pen/dongle/mini/portable hard drives?
<froud> guess it should
<Njal> Since all i know about is the 'dongle' drives
<froud> that's ok, do what you know
<froud> or do research about the ones you dont know so you can do the section
<Njal> kk
<froud> gtaylor: good to see you
<froud> gtaylor: outline is in svn
<gtaylor> froud: Good deal, how's it looking?
<froud> not bad, good enough for me to think it's time for input from you and jjesse 
<gtaylor> great, I'll start playing with it today
<froud> argh network splits
<froud> gtaylor: did you respond to me. if so. I missed it
<gtaylor> froud: Yeah, I'm going to take a look at pitch some stuff in today
<froud> cool look forward to it
<froud> I have mainly done parts and chapters if these structures are OK, then I think we can start building the section outline in each of the chapters
<gtaylor> ok
<gtaylor> looks like a good start
<gtaylor> hrm, need a section on package management
<froud> under the part on expanding ?
<gtaylor> Well, I see you have one under Expanding Kubuntu but that might be a chapter on its own
<froud> he he
<gtaylor> There are a bunch of different ways to do package management, is the user guide supposed to go over GUI and Console ways of doing things?
<froud> Umm mostly using Kynaptic
<gtaylor> ok
<gtaylor> I wrote a bunch of Kynaptic stuff for the quickguide we can use
<froud> but some cli will be needed in order to add repositories to sources.list
<jjesse> shouldn't it cover at least some of the console settings?  if i remember correctly the upgrade from wart to hoary was mostly console driven apt-get update and stuff
<froud> once you have repos's defined in sources.list the rest can be done va kynaptic
<froud> smart upgrade
<froud> everything up to Expanding is the stock installation
<gtaylor> I didn't know there was such a thing as apt-get moo :)
<gtaylor> was wondering what that super cow powers stuff was
<jjesse> hello enrico?
<enrico> jjesse: hi from LinuxTag!
<jjesse> having fun?
<enrico> lots! :)
* gtaylor is jealous
* #ubuntu-doc  [freenode-info]  why register and identify?  your IRC nick is how people know you.  http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#nicksetup
<froud> night, night
#ubuntu-doc 2005-07-02
<sladen> froud: heavens no!  :-)
<mdke> robitaille, sorry i forgot to tell you about the icon thing
<mdke> have replied on list now
<robitaille> mdke:  ok.  So there is no point for me to work on these icons until a permanent solution is established.
<jsgotangco> brb
<jeffsch> hello jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> hi
<jsgotangco> sorry i was out for lunch
<jeffsch> as long as you're not out *to* lunch! :)
<jeffsch> jsgotangco: i started an agenda on DocteamNextIRCMeeting
<jsgotangco> oh right i was about to to that later
<froud> African Greetings
<froud> plovs: ping :-)
<jsgotangco> hi
<froud> jsgotangco: howzit
<plovs> froud: morning!
<jsgotangco> not bad im just reading stuff i bought the oreily docbook at the bookstore last night
<froud> jsgotangco: cool
<froud> plovs: where the hell have you been dude, I missed you
<plovs> froud: :-) that's nice to hear, working and vacationing mostly, i'm working on a debian-installer for work to install our debian boxes
<froud> plovs: cool, dude. you thinking of helping on docs?
<plovs> thinking yes, but actually doing anything, not yet, i leave for another week in three hours, vacation is killing me :-)
<plovs> but later, i really would like to
<froud> plovs: well, that's ok. you know that you are always welcome here
<froud> plovs: but you will have to arrange for you commit account again
<froud> plovs: we moved to svn in canonical server farm sometime back
<froud> I dont remember you getting an acount
<plovs> no problem, i know where to find you
<plovs> how are things in the docs?
<froud> plovs: enrico is still around, busy with work, send him a your public pgp and username
<froud> plovs: we are making steady progress
<froud> the team has grown
<froud> more hands and eyeballs to work with, makes it cool
<froud> plovs: jsgotangco is now secretary
<froud> jeffsch: thanks for bringing strip path from xsl 1.68.1 to our custlayer
<jeffsch> you're welcome. I still can't understand it's purpose though...
<froud> jeffsch: what strippath
<jeffsch> yeah
<froud> yeah rather stupic template
<froud> stupid
<jeffsch> there must be some method in the madness
<froud> but at least we can use our custom layers to circumvent such problems. That's the other good thing about custom layers
<froud> I see that you have learned to swim well in xsl and the db nwalsh stylesheets ;-) cool stuff
<froud> the nwdb xsl's are hectic
<froud> powerful but hectic
<jeffsch> tweren't nuthin. I just grepped for "fileref" then followed the trail to strippath
<froud> he he
<jeffsch> "swimming" would be an exageration
<froud> well even I admit that I tend to drown in them
<froud> jeffsch: but that is where all the power of docbook is, so no choice must swim and sink there sometimes
<froud> jeffsch: sorry I did not get to the style guide over the weekend
<froud> did everything else except that :-)
<jeffsch> I was thinking something like https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocBookReference would be good for https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StyleGuide/DocBookConventions
<froud> yes like the kde markup guide
<froud> jeffsch: I think gnome also has such an animal, right?
<jeffsch> yeah, but mostly in the GNOME Handbook of Writing Software Documentation
<froud> yah, that's it
<froud> we most have a mix between the two, and we exclude some g and k specific stuff
<froud> except for g and k specific aps
<froud> btw, ppl its a good idea to lookout for new apps that will be developed by k/ubuntu for breezy. If we can we should grab them and document them
<froud> I heard that there is an update-notifier for kubuntu planned
<froud> ok morning coffee finished, time to start my day. c ya later
<jsgotangco> plovs, did hornbeck contact you
<plovs> jsgotangco: not lately, no
<jsgotangco> plovs, he's been looking for you specifically, since he is writing a book and was looking for you
<jsgotangco> (for APress)
<plovs> jsgotangco:  i'll mail him, thanks
<mdke> hey jsgotangco 
<mdke> and everyone
<mdke> jsgotangco, you haven't organised the meeting for this week yet?
<jsgotangco> i was thinking of doing it next week
<jsgotangco> its too soon to announce it now
<jsgotangco> don't you think
<mdke> :(
<mdke> man we have so much to do!
<jsgotangco> after next week, we'll make it regular every 2 weeks
<jsgotangco> don't worry, i'll send an email later
<mdke> grrrr
<jsgotangco> grrr?
<jsgotangco> hold on
<jsgotangco> let me try this
<jsgotangco> hmm ok this is kinda weird
<mdke> sup?
<jsgotangco> im trying out ERC
<jsgotangco> ever since im using ION, i've been wanting everything to be minimalist
<mdke> an easy thing to organise the meeting would just be to make a permanent wiki agenda page, like the CC does, then no organisation is needed, it can just happen every 2 weeks
<mdke> i think we should have one this week
<jsgotangco> if I finish compiling all issues and call up a meeting for thursday, i think it would be too soon IMO, i was thinking tuesday next week
<jsgotangco> and set up a regular 2-week interval meeting after that
<mdke> :(
<mdke> that is bad news
<jsgotangco> huh?
<mdke> we have lots of things we need to get sorted and have been waiting for the meeting
<jsgotangco> hold on let me switch to a better client
<jsgotangco> ok this is much better
<jsgotangco> mdke: can we make an agenda right now
<mdke> yes
<mdke> well sort of
<mdke> personally I can't log into the wiki
<mdke> but we can make one here, and I'll put it up later
<jsgotangco> same here
<jsgotangco> ok
<jsgotangco> 1st up in agenda: StyleGuide
<mdke> good
<mdke> next, whether to ship in html
<mdke> next, whether to profile our documentation
<jsgotangco> hold on
<mdke> sure
<jsgotangco> i think we should still fill up the details on DocteamProjects
<mdke> go on...
<mdke> in what way fill up?
<jsgotangco> doc status and html previews
<jsgotangco> there's so much admin stuff to do in those ocs
<jsgotangco> docs
<mdke> that's another issue
<mdke> (docteam.ubuntu.com)
<mdke> ok so we have 4 topics so far
<jsgotangco> just a way to upload them would do
<mdke> wiki team could be a 5th topic
<mdke> what else?
<jsgotangco> hmmmm
<mdke> i want to talk about translation but it can be done at a later meeting
<jsgotangco> that's all i could thik of at the moment
<mdke> i think that is enough
<jsgotangco> i thought translation is a rosetta issue
<mdke> its a lot
<mdke> translation is done in rosetta but then needs to be handled by us
<mdke> but it doesn't need to be discussed at the next meeting
<mdke> i think those issues are already more than enough ;)
<jsgotangco> maybe we should move rosetta at a later date
<mdke> move rosetta?
<jsgotangco> the meeting :)
<mdke> that's what I said
<jsgotangco> ok to summarize
<jsgotangco> ah
<jsgotangco> 1.) tackling the StyleGuide 2.)what would be the preferred docteam format to ship (HTML/XML)
<jsgotangco> 3.) document profiling
<jsgotangco> (KDE/GNOME, etc.)
<jsgotangco> 4.) docteam.ubuntu.com (where will we host our status and preview docs)
<jsgotangco> 5.) creation of the wiki team (for...?)
<jsgotangco> what you think?
<mdke> great
<jsgotangco> hmmm how will i describe #5 though
<jsgotangco> oh wait let me look at your email
<mdke> just refer to the thread on the ML
<jsgotangco> alright how does 06.30.2005 14UTC sound
<mdke> it sounds awesome
<jsgotangco> right everyone is probably awake during that time (except the US)
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> we can rotate times in future maybe
<jsgotangco> i was thinking of rotating between 14 and 22
<jsgotangco> just like what CC does
<jsgotangco> and thursday is a good day to adopt for the team
<jsgotangco> mdke: ok are we happy with that :)
<mdke> dunno, but I am
<jsgotangco> i don't see you smiling :)
<jsgotangco> alright, i'm composing the email now and will send it
<mdke> sorry :D
<mdke> jsgotangco, btw we can just have an agenda page on the wiki that people can add to, what do you think?
<jsgotangco> like that of the CC page?
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> DocteamMeetingAgenda maybe
<jsgotangco> good idea, but i think any issues other than those we have for now will be covered after we finish the main agenda
<mdke> fine by me
<jsgotangco> can you login to the wiki now? i still can't
<mdke> no
<mdke> i pinged elmo
<jsgotangco> alright, i'll just email this first on ubuntu-doc and ubuntu-users
<jsgotangco> oh and ubuntu-devel as well
<mdke> yay
<mdke> good call
<jsgotangco> ok to finalize, the Ubuntu Documentation Project team will be having its FIRST regular meeting on June 30, 2005 at 14:00UTC
<jsgotangco> we will be having the regular meetings in 2-week intervals so the next meeting after the 30th would be on the 14th of July (time TBA)
<jsgotangco> WOW 14:00 UTC is an awesome time for me
<mdke> what time?
<jsgotangco> 10PM
<mdke> cool
<jsgotangco> and 7am on jeffsch's side
<mdke> ouch
<jsgotangco> he said 14utc is cool with him
<mdke> oh good
<jsgotangco> in other news i have been completely taken over by emacs for my everyday work
<jsgotangco> (i can even chat in here)
<jsgotangco> mdke: let's post this agenda first on DocteamNextIRCMeeting then after that, we can use DocteamAgenda what do you think
<jsgotangco> mdke: ping?
<mdke> jsgotangco, sorry, here I am
<mdke> I would say use DocteamMeetingAgenda straight away
<mdke> emacs eh
<mdke> i've become obsessed with urxvt+screen+irssi for irc now
<jsgotangco> mdke: but we can't put it in the wiki now
<mdke> jsgotangco, no problem, I'm happy to do it when the wiki is working
<jsgotangco> ok DocteamMeetingAgenda
<mdke> i'll take it from your email
<jsgotangco> ermmm
<jsgotangco> how do i describe document profiling?
<mdke> i'm not convinced you need to describe all the agenda items in your email
<mdke> they can be expanded on on the wiki page
<jsgotangco> i just want a 1-line overview
<jsgotangco> (after all, its not just us who will be reading it)
<jsgotangco> mdke: sent
<mdke> nice email
<mdke> jsgotangco, ok when the wiki is back i will create the page
<jsgotangco> jeezz i didnt know hula was already in universe
<jsgotangco> mdke: thanks
<mdke> is it?
<mdke> awesome
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jsgotangco> since hoary
<jsgotangco> i didnt even know
<jsgotangco> oh cool i got my launchpad request for ubuntu members approved already
<mdke> what's that?
<jsgotangco> https://launchpad.ubuntu.com/people/ubuntumembers/+members
<jsgotangco> all members should register there
<mdke> what does it do?
<jsgotangco> it should automate everything in the future (signing of CoC, ubuntu.com addresses, etc.)
<jsgotangco> (well not really everything)
<mdke> ok
<jsgotangco> ok im going home
<jsgotangco> see you
<mdke> ok jsgotangco bye
<jsgotangco> mdke: i forgot
<mdke> ;)
<jsgotangco> can you post the email in the wiki when it comes back
<jsgotangco> :)
<jsgotangco> because the email refers to a dead link for now :)
<mdke> yes sure
<jsgotangco> thanks :) I'm out for the night then
<mdke> ok night
<sladen> what do I need to edit:  https://www.ubuntulinux.org/ubuntu/components/
<sladen> want to add a little 2x2 square
<mdke> i think you need to be webmaster
<sladen> with supported/unsupported  free/illegal   and put the four   main/restricted/universe/multiverse in the boxes
<mdke> those pages are official and as such I think are edited by the webmaster/mdz and other such peoples
<mdke> sladen, another idea is to post to the recent thread on ubuntu-devel mailing list, where jdub and mdz have both said that improvements to that page are welcome
<sladen> posted mdz a message
<mdke> not to -devel?
<mdke> hello gtaylor 
<mdke> :)
<gtaylor> heya mdke
<mpt> 1400 UTC? As in, 2am?
<mpt> rock
<mdke> hi froud jjesse 
<mdke> go gtaylor !!
<jjesse> hiya mdke
<froud> :-)
<gtaylor> hey froud, looking at the kuserguide, I see you have subsections under Internet for messaging and stuff
<gtaylor> But when I hit the link, it takes me back to the preface
<froud> Hmmm
* froud goes to check
<froud> gtaylor: which part?
<gtaylor> Internet: Messaging
<froud> kug
<froud> <chapter status="help">
<froud> 			<title>Instant Messaging</title>
<froud> 			<sect1>
<froud> 				<title>Section Tittle</title>
<froud> 				<para>...</para>
<froud> 			</sect1>
<froud> 		</chapter>
<gtaylor> that's the one
<froud> empty
<froud> there is not link there
<gtaylor> well I'm looking at it with Yelp and under the Using the Internet chapter I have a list of subsections that are linked
<gtaylor> the HTML version works fine though but that takes a long time to build on this machine
<froud> lemme see it in yelp
<froud> arhg! darn yelp keeps craching on a valid document, I can't open it at present
<gtaylor> have you been testing using the html build?
<froud> always
<gtaylor> ok
<froud> actuall I install the files and see them in khelpcenter or from the kio-slave help:/
<froud> but there are no links in that section
<froud> actually there is no text in that section
<froud> gtaylor: did you see the message about the preview site
<froud> http://lnix.net/~froud
<gtaylor> I thought there was "..."
<gtaylor> yeah, looked good
<froud> Ok will will update it again tonight
<froud> I will aim to update it once a day
<gtaylor> yeah, cron that sucker
<froud> gtaylor: I just commited some patches on your patches
<gtaylor> ok
<froud> you should see them in your commit list
<froud> gtaylor: try not use casual language
<gtaylor> ok
<froud> like "if you want to checkout your ..." :-)
<froud> remember people at i18n have to translate this
* mdke nods and glares at gtaylor 
<froud> and these things don't translate well :-)
<froud> some sematic errors
<froud> yu can validate your document to find problems using the validate.sh in trunk/
<froud> if you can't find the problem, then leave it and I will fix it
<froud> other than that, great stuff. I take it you have id'd the parts you want to write :-)
<froud> gtaylor: jjesse: if you want a part or a chapter/sect just mark it thus
<froud> <part id="pt-expanding" status="writing">
<froud> 		<title>Expanding Kubuntu</title>
<froud> 		<!-- Sean Wheller: Writing this part -->
<gtaylor> I'll probably start with the easiest sections first and work my way up
<froud> that way we will know who is where
<jjesse> grin me 2 gtaylor
<froud> cool, whatever you feel like doing
<jjesse> i'm leaving one of the projects that i am currently working on so i'll have more time to work on docs
<froud> cool, good to know
<froud> gtaylor: jjesse: do you understand why to change the status attribute as described in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamWork "Marking what you do"
<jjesse> yup, so not to duplicate things, make sense to me
<gtaylor> yeah, I haven't done enough work in the userguide to warrant any status changes yet though
<froud> OK, but also to get the status reports output correctly
<froud> see http://lnix.net/~froud/status/kqg-report.html
<gtaylor> ok
<jjesse> ok
<froud> the author remarks col is generated from the value in the status attribute
<jjesse> btw is it first come first serve to comit patches that come across the mailing list or how does that work?
<froud> ifyou leave an authorblurb it will add your comment
<jjesse> like the diff that just came across
<froud> jjesse: 1st come 1st serve
<froud> just make a note back to the list that you have applied it
<froud> but before commit do check the patch
<jjesse> nod, don't have the time now for the one just came across but was just curious
<froud> in our mailing list?
<froud> as far as I know all are done. lemme check
<froud> ah ha new one
<froud> anyone with commit can checkit and commit
<mdke> hmm
<froud> if the patch is really bad, the politely reject, if not so bad, patch and fix before commit
<mdke> he never writes anything in his emails ;)
* froud goes on school run
<froud> bb in 5
<froud> http://lnix.net/~froud updated
<judax> froud: Hi
<Njal> lo
<mdke> hi
<Njal> hows all?
<mdke> good thanks v much, yourself?
<Njal> im good
<mdke> thanks for patches
<Njal> they any good?
<Njal> I havn't removed everything in the xml file again have i? :P
<froud> hey judax 
<mdke> the last one looks like it can be applied
<mdke> i will take a closer look later
<Njal> cool thanks
<mdke> thank YOU @_
<mdke> bah
<mdke> @_ = :)
<Njal> ah kk, case of lazy finger :p
<Njal> You tryed auto package?
<mdke> what is that?
<froud> judax: you looking for me?
<Njal> http://www.autopackage.org/index.html
<mdke> well no i haven't
<mdke> i've never done any packaging
<Njal> No it's like um a universal package installation suite works the same for every distro
<Njal> Meaning if there's an app that's just not getting backported you can install it through autopackage
<Njal> however it also means YOUR in charge of keeping it up to date
<mdke> i just use Ubuntu packages
<mdke> not even backports
<Njal> ah well i just like playing really
<mdke> does sound quite cool
<Njal> I am undecided yet, sounds good in theory installing a couple of packages and seeing what it's really like
<judax> froud: was just saying 'Hi' :)
<froud> hi
<mdke> damn forums are down
<Njal> lo
<Njal> forums are back
<mdke> wicked thanks
<Njal> np
#ubuntu-doc 2005-07-03
<froud> + text releated documents + text getting help (KHelpCenter, Community Support) + start writing organization kuserguide.xml 
<froud> would like reviews
<froud> later, night, night, don't let the bed bugs bite
<mdke> evenin all
<Burgundavia> salut
<squinn> mdke, question
<mdke> hello squinn
<mdke> shoot
<squinn> where's the file
<squinn> that has all the "links"
<squinn> like %ubuntu = http://ubuntulinux.org
<squinn> use.desc i think it's called
<mdke> the entities are in libs/global.ent
<mdke> e.g. &ubuntu;
<squinn> thanks
<mdke> np
<mdke> squinn, are you working on something at the moment?
<mdke> if so, you should submit patches often, even if they are small, because that way if other changes are made to the guide, two people don't edit the same document
<squinn> mdke, yes, i'm getting ready to submit a patch
<squinn> i'm finishing up a section
<mdke> ok, in future though you should patch regularly, so that two people don't work on the same section :)
<mdke> squinn, also, always do svn up before making the patch
<squinn> mdke, I know. I've been through a few reinstalls.
<squinn> mdke, so I've not been so active in docteam. I'm finishing up now..I'm not done with a section, but patching.
<mdke> cool thanks for the work
<squinn> My svn account is going to canonical now though.
<mdke> ok, feel free to come in here to ask questions about how the system works, its normal to have a few things to discover early on
<squinn> right, thanks, mdke 
<squinn> I should 'make ug' right?
<mdke> Burgundavia, around still?
<Burgundavia> always
<mdke> squinn, you can check the doc as xml, using the procedure outlined on the StepbyStepRepository page, or make the html yeah
<mdke> Burgundavia, how does one close bugs in malone?
<squinn> i did both
<squinn> mdke, I've always wondered that [bout Malone] 
<Burgundavia> hmm
<mdke> squinn, most important is to use the ./validate.sh script
<Burgundavia> you should just be able to do it
<squinn> yeah, it found an error...fixed it though
<squinn> </para> goes before </sect1> -- must remember that
<Burgundavia> which bug?
<mdke> Burgundavia, 333
<mdke> malone is a really terrible interface right now
<mdke> i can't wait for it to improve
<Burgundavia> found it
<Burgundavia> you have to click on the line that says
<Burgundavia> "ubuntu seahorse"
<Burgundavia> can I close the bug as fixed?
<mdke> np, i've got it
<Burgundavia> mpt, ping
<Burgundavia> the UI is going to improve, we hope
<mdke> i hope so
<mdke> Burgundavia, what do you mean by "page page in history" (email)?
<Burgundavia> hmm
<mdke> squinn, cool, will look at patch now! thanks
<Burgundavia> I am actually quite well spoken, I just can't write worth a damn
<Burgundavia> page moves in history
<Burgundavia> to allow easy rollbacks
<Burgundavia> WP just introduced it in 1.5
<Burgundavia> as there was a vandal they called Willy on Wheels
<mdke> page moves as in renames?
<Burgundavia> would move pages to things like Wikipedia is Communism
<Burgundavia> yes
<mdke> agreed
<Burgundavia> I wish moin would drop the stupid icons and use text
<mdke> which?
<Burgundavia> top right corner
<Burgundavia> the icons are badly created and don't illustrate what they are supposed to
<Burgundavia> and text works just find
<Burgundavia> s/fine
<mdke> well the UI should be customisable
<mdke> do the icons have hover?
<Burgundavia> hmm, no idea
<Burgundavia> I just figured out by looking at the hyperlinks they were
<Burgundavia> you need a good default
<Burgundavia> as 90% of users never change the default
<mdke> but our wiki doesn't use those icons
<Burgundavia> yes it does
<Burgundavia> oh
<mdke> i don't see em
<Burgundavia> udu wiki does
<Burgundavia> hmm
<Burgundavia> why do we have findpage and search?
<mdke> yeah udu is basically moin default i think
<Burgundavia> get info and show changes should be merged, into history
<mdke> yes
<mdke> get info is last diff
<mdke> show changes are all diffs
<mdke> neither expression are very intuitive
<mdke> are/is
<Burgundavia> there is no need to show the last diff
<Burgundavia> just a general history thing
<mdke> agreed
<Burgundavia> in fact, the default icons are even worse
<Burgundavia> 8 small icons in the top corner
<Burgundavia> just joined #moin to ask about history stuff
<mdke> in the meantime you could ask henrik if he thinks its a good idea to merge the two, he could just do it on our wiki
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> I shall fire another incoherent email to the list about that
<mdke> lol
* mdke hugs
<mdke> we have a slight problem
<mdke> squinn's patch overlaps with njals
<Burgundavia> hmm
<Burgundavia> 1. reject both and get them both commit access, so they can fight over it
<Burgundavia> 2. rewrite the 2 into a better one
<mdke> i'm gonna commit squinns cos there is nothing wrong with it
<mdke> then get njal's, which is much more substantial but a bit dodgy, refined a bit more
<Burgundavia> another moron who did an "expert" install and is now reporting bugs about it
* Burgundavia eagerly awaits the wikipedia/mediawiki 1.5 conversion
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> maybe I should do a breezy install on this computer
<Burgundavia> hmm, totem-gstreamer still sucks for non-freee stuff
<Burgundavia> too bad
<mdke> tricky issue that
<mdke> how is breezy these days?
<Burgundavia> I have a gdm issue
<Burgundavia> but X starts
<Burgundavia> I seem to have lost my custom theme
<mdke> X starts?
<mdke> cool
<mdke> with tinkering or without?
<Burgundavia> no tinkering
<Burgundavia> I have never tinkered with my X server
<Burgundavia> no symlinks, no nothing
<Burgundavia> that is stupid and gentooish
<mdke> well many people have been fixing their symlinks in order to get X working in breezy
<mdke> that makes them gentooish?
<Burgundavia> then when daniels releases a fixed version, the symlinked stuff usually breaks
<mdke> sure
<mdke> but half the devs have been doing it
<mdke> include daniels himself probably ;)
<Burgundavia> hmm, I doubt it
<Burgundavia> the reason they break is that the package will not overwrite the symlink with the correct file
<Burgundavia> as it it has been created by a user
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> but earlier it broke regardless of that
<mdke> anyway, now its fixed
<Burgundavia> as we get closer to July 7th, there is likely to be less breakage
<mdke> what is that date?
<Burgundavia> Upstream Version Freeze
<mdke> thats pretty early
<mdke> is that earlier than for hoary?
<Burgundavia> nope
<Burgundavia> actually, one week
<Burgundavia> http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/BreezyReleaseSchedule
<squinn> mdke, i had to check that serpentine was official cd burning software
<squinn> i did that with #ubuntu-devel first, and it is serpentine, not nautilus [that's data cd burning] 
<mdke> squinn, yeah you did the right thing to write that as a comment
<Burgundavia> serpentine is the official, afaik
<Burgundavia> it is already in main
<squinn> It is, Burgundavia.
<squinn> According to #ubuntu-devel
<squinn> Burgundavia, do you think that after the UVF, it'd be safer to upgrade to Breezy?
<Burgundavia> might be
<Burgundavia> the major piece of breakage is X
<Burgundavia> and I have no idea what the schedule for that is
<squinn> Burgundavia, let me center Breezy discussion on docteam.
<squinn> There is a crucial release of gnome-doc-utils coming asap, according to main developer upstream
<squinn> The package itself is in Breezy, but the older version. After UVF, the new version can't come in, or can it?
<Burgundavia> docs are different
<Burgundavia> they go in very late
<squinn> ok
<squinn> this is my first [heh]  release 
<squinn> in this position
<squinn> i was here for hoary...left for gentoo..came back
<mpt> Burgundavia: pong
<mpt> Burgundavia: I just happened to be editing [[Iran] ]  a couple of days ago, and went on to the Talk page, and found you there
<mpt> jdub: ping
<Burgundavia> mpt, I am quite active on Wikipedia
<Burgundavia> mpt, I was pinging you regarding the malone interface
<Burgundavia> is there a timeline for that changing?
<mpt> Not a public one
<mpt> Changing to what?
<Burgundavia> the bug editing thing
<Burgundavia> where you get different screens by clicking in different places
<mpt> could you be a *little* more specific?
<mpt> :-)
<Burgundavia> sorry
<Burgundavia> ok
<Burgundavia> if I click on edit bugs in the portlet on the left, I get a different page then if I click on the link "ubuntu PACKAGENAME"
<Burgundavia> I understand about the many bugs/one package thing
<mpt> You mean, one bug, many packages?
<Burgundavia> ya
<mpt> Burgundavia: By "Edit bugs in the portlet on the left" do you mean "Edit Bug Details" in the portlet on the right?
<Burgundavia> yes, sorry
<Burgundavia> is late here
<mpt> heh
* Burgundavia hmms
<Burgundavia> the iran thing was probably someone asking on #wikipedia for support
<mpt> Well, those pages are pages I'm not allowed to change at the moment
<mpt> So there's not much I can do about it, unfortunately
<Burgundavia> ok
<mpt> If you have *specific* suggestions on how to fix it, please do report them
<Burgundavia> on another note, did you see my latest blog
<Burgundavia> I am trying to think of a good way to do that
<mpt> Your link to Katimavik is broken
<Burgundavia> ?
<Burgundavia> hmm
<Burgundavia> oops
<mpt> I like the idea
<Burgundavia> the Eye of Gnome maintainer was interested as well
<Burgundavia> it wouldn't take too much effort to hack eog and gimp to do that
<Burgundavia> see how it goes
<mpt> with the possible exception of the Manage button
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> that would have to come later
<mpt> just as you'd like to see every viewer have an integrated Edit interface
<mpt> I'd like to see a collection manager rather than a file manager
<Burgundavia> I had the same thought
<Burgundavia> that the manage stuff should actually be part of the file manager
<Burgundavia> the idea was spawned by that 3.0 mockup and long thread about making evince view everything by default/the divide between editors and viewers
<Burgundavia> s/editors/editers
<Burgundavia> hmm
<Burgundavia> right
<mpt> yah
<Burgundavia> that is something that NO other desktop could do
<Burgundavia> well, maybe KDE could do it
<Burgundavia> but not OS X and Windows
<mpt> Often I'm playing a movie or an audio file and thinking "hmm, I wish I could crop it"
<mpt> I understand Quicktime Pro can do it
<mpt> but the normal player can't
<mpt> and iTunes can sorta kinda crop audio, but it forgets the cropping whenever I reimport the music, because it's keeping the info in its own database instead of in metadata attached to the file itself
<Burgundavia> what do you think of the interface of totem vs. idvd?
<mpt> I haven't used iDVD
<mpt> because I don't have any DVDs
<Burgundavia> ah
<Burgundavia> ok
<Burgundavia> I have used idvd on my gf's laptop and it sucks compared to totem
<mpt> It's rather bothersome that (a) Totem "Movie Player" (sic) is the default program for audio files, and (b) that results in visualization effects that I can't turn off
<Burgundavia> yes, those are annoying
<Burgundavia> this is funny "  Manila faithful flock to bury Sin" http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4628957.stm
<mpt> All the recent files in its "Movie" (sic) menu are Ogg Vorbis
<Burgundavia> lol
<Burgundavia> that audio issue is due to upstream not having a good media player
<Burgundavia> sonance is looking quite nice
<Burgundavia> very similar to iTunes
<mpt> crap, I need a yellow fever vaccination
<Burgundavia> to go where?
<mpt> Brazil
<Burgundavia> ah, for Launchpad stuff
<mpt> because my flights between South Africa and New York happened to stop in Senegal
<Burgundavia> salut froud 
<froud> African Greetings
<Burgundavia> mpt, regarding HelpfulHelp, is there movement in the Breezy timeline and how can that be helped along?
<mpt> Well, yelp needs to be hacked so that it opens a particular "book" rather than opening the ToC
<mpt> I need to talk to shaunm about that
<Burgundavia> mpt, he is in gnome-hackers on irc.gimp.net right now
<mpt> I just haven't had time for much of it yet
<mpt> but I have to go right now
<mpt> coz my sister's picking me up
<mpt> bbl
<Burgundavia> cya
* netjoined: irc.freenode.net -> kornbluth.freenode.net
<Njal> lo
<mdke> hi Njal 
<mdke> :)
<mdke> got my email?
<Njal> yeah, im just a little confused on how the system works
<Njal> nothing big really
<Njal> just wanna make sure i get it right
<mdke> yeah its confusing because since you made your patch, the file has been edited
<Njal> think is i have done the svn up and all my work is still there
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> ok let's do this
<mdke> you got your patch safe?
<Njal> the .diff file?
<mdke> yes
<mdke> just making sure I have a copy in case
<Njal> yes i have my patch then
<mdke> ok
<mdke> you can delete the file userguide.xml and then restore it doing svn up
<Njal> got it now
<mdke> ok now apply your patch using patch < nameofpatch
<Njal> neil@ubuntu:~/ubuntu-doc/gnome/userguide/C $ patch < userguide.xml.diff
<Njal> patching file userguide.xml
<Njal> Hunk #2 FAILED at 974.
<Njal> Hunk #3 succeeded at 1427 (offset 5 lines).
<Njal> 1 out of 3 hunks FAILED -- saving rejects to file userguide.xml.rej
<mdke> ok check out that file userguide.xml.rej, see what is in it
<mdke> it might be the audio burning section
<Njal> both the audio CD bit and the data CD bit
<mdke> yeah that is probably because that section changes since you made your patch
<mdke> ok now you should work on userguide.xml, check that everything has been put in the right place and so on
<mdke> if you want, you can add things to the burning section
<mdke> although note that nautilus does not do audio burning
<Njal> is it a program integrated with nautilus then?
<mdke> there is a program shipped with breezy to do audio burning
<mdke> called serpentine
<Njal> ah
<Njal> then my work on those sections is obsolete then
<Njal> since i am not running breezy and can't until the 4th or 5th of next month
<mdke> you can make a note that it needs revising for breezy
<mdke> if you start to write sections that have nothing right now, that is always useful
<Njal> Well do you know if nautilus will still have that built in burning directory? Well it's not really up to Ubuntu is it it's gnome's baby
<mdke> i'm sure nautilus-cd-burner will continue to exist
<mdke> but Ubuntu makes decisions about what software to ship independently of gnome
<mdke> personally I didn't know nautilus-cd-burner did audio
<mdke> i haven't tried it
<Njal> I think it does, well i can include my section and if it's still there in breezy to a degree it'll still be relevent
<mdke> the thing is, it conflicts with the section already there which speaks of serpentine, and the author said that he asked in #ubuntu-devel to ensure that this was correct
<Njal> I'll not contiune with the audio then, since serpentine will be used, should i add the bit about data CD's?
<mdke> yeah definitely
<Njal> kk
<mdke> :)
<mdke> thanks for that work
<mdke> after you've checked that everything is in the right place, patch and resend
<Njal> also i did some work on the command line section, is that any good, im thinking like the top ten most useful commands to remember or the like, i might need some help on that since some commands i use i don't actually know what some of the argument's stand for etc
<mdke> yeah that is a cool section
<mdke> things like "ls" "cd" and so on
<mdke> a basic guide
<mdke> maybe there is some material on the wiki
<Njal> right i wasn't sure if i should have shown how to do stuff like that but i will do basic stuff like how to create a directory etc
<Njal> anyway i will patch this then work on the command lin
<Njal> line
<mdke> awesome
<Njal> oh finally made the patch
<Njal> And submitted
<mdke> great thanks!
<Njal> np
<mdke> applying
<Njal> cool thanks
<mdke> btw did you use bluefish?
<Njal> no i found GEdit's spell checker
<mdke> that works too
<mdke> i am in love with bluefish
<mdke> it will add tags for you
<Njal> Personally i would have prefered NVU but it wouldn't open the xml file
<Njal> so, if you don't mind me asking, what do you folks do? Apart from write ubuntu documentation?
<mdke> in life?
<mdke> most are in computing
<mdke> i'm a lawyer
<mdke> just finished law school
<Njal> wow. I'm a humble student, just finished a two year course, started when i was 16
<Njal> Now ready to go to uni to do networking and networked programming
<mdke> nice
<mdke> where do ya live?
<Njal> York, England, well i don't live IN york but it's the nearest big city, i live about 15 miles away from it, yourself?
<mdke> london
<mdke> what city?
<Njal> I live near York
<mdke> oh i c, you mean york is the nearest big city
<mdke> gotcha
<Njal> yup
<mdke> cool
<Njal> You live in london, heared of the amature transplants?
<mdke> no
<Njal> You into rather warped commendy?
<Njal> commedy
<mdke> depends how warped i think
<Njal> Have you ever thought about how bad the state of the underground is?
<mdke> which underground?
<Njal> the london underground
<Njal> the tube's
<mdke> yes
<mdke> it sucks balls
<Njal> http://www.union.ic.ac.uk/medic/fitness/home.php?type=video
<Njal> make sure you have the flash plugin and an mp3 player
<mdke> ah i have that song
<mdke> haven't seen a video tho
<Njal> it's funny
<Njal> i thought you said you havn't heard of them
<mdke> i hadn't
<mdke> just know the song
<Njal> ah go to the listen section and listen to snippets 
<mdke> okies
<mdke> that song was well publicised here ;)
<mdke> even made our free newspaper "the metro"
<Njal> we have the metro up in York on the busses and the like, it's also avalible in Scotland too ;) 
<mdke> is it the same one?
<Njal> I presume so, blue METRO written on the top
<mdke> cool
<Njal> i never read it' though, all the news i get s google alerts sent to my inbox so i can read it when i have the time
<mdke> :)
<Njal> Have you ever been in court when some of these famously stupid questions have been asked, you know like 
<Njal> When was your child concieved?
<Njal> tuesday 24 august
<Njal> what were you doing at the time
<mdke> heh
<mdke> not yet
<Njal> Are these real? Or has someone with too much spare time made them up?
<mdke> could be real i guess
<Njal> I've always wondered
* mdke switches computers
<rob^> just a quick question, people writing the Userguide, are you using Breezy now?
<mdke> some are
<rob^> much difference between it and hoary?
<rob^> apart from it being up to date
<mdke> i don't know, i haven't tried it
<mdke> its only recently started working
<rob^> oh
<rob^> just thinking it might be a good idea if I'm going to contribute to it
<mdke> yeah i agree
<rob^> oh well, time for a dist-upgrade :)
<mdke> save your things
<rob^> ah, yeah
<mdke> i will probably make a separate install for breezy
<mdke> keep my hoary
<rob^> I would to if I had a bigger hard drive
<mdke> how big is it?
<rob^> 40gig
<mdke> twice the size of mine ;)
<rob^> :)
<rob^> most of it is a /home partition
<rob^> still left from my Debian install infact
<mdke> gah
<mdke> evolution keeps crashing on me
<rob^> bah
<rob^> firefox is nicer
<rob^> doh
<rob^> I ment thunderbird
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> what do you use for a calendar?
<rob^> just click on the clock on the top right of your screen
<rob^> its got a drop down one
<mdke> yes, that is evolution ;)
<rob^> well, thats the only thing I use it for
<mdke> oh right
<rob^> or just use date
<mdke> appointments and stuff?
<mdke> rob^, this is one of the good things about using evolution with Ubuntu: you get your appointments in the drop down menu: http://www.mdke.org/images/calendar.png
<rob^> sounds like a good idea, I normally just use the gnome todo applet
<rob^> might have a look however
<rob^> ah that is pretty good actually
<rob^> dam netsplit
<froud> jjesse: ping
<jjesse> froud pong
<froud> profiling
<jjesse> yes
<froud> the only case where I have implimented it is in the generic instal guide
<froud> The similarity between gnome and kde is because much stuff was based on the gnome work
<froud> it makes sense to profile, if, these common parts remain the same
<froud> however, we are not required to make it as such
<jjesse> are all the documents going to contain the preface, conventions used etc
<jjesse> cause it would be silly to be copying and pasting everything 
<froud> Well it should use an XInclude
<froud> kuserguide is setup for support to XInclude/XPointer
<froud> conventions are a common object
<froud> we only have a single xml instance for that
<froud> Preface can change between books
<froud> so it is not a common object in entire
<froud> rather parts such as conventions would be common objects
<jjesse> ok
<froud> it is debate able whether or not the about stuff should be common
<froud> for you and I profilig is not an issue, but for newbies, mdke has point
<froud> the more advance our feature set use of docbook is, the more a newbie must learn
<froud> only solution is that the newbie will get support from us and that assumes a willingness to learn
<froud> like when you did your learning on xslt
<froud> catch 22 I'm afraid
<froud> on the oneside profiling can save hours of work
<froud> on the other it raises the barrier to entery
<rob^> being a newbie, i found it a pain initally but its not that hard
<rob^> its very obvious actually
<jjesse> agreed rob^
<froud> glad you find it easy. I think mdke would like to discuss it and hear from people before using it
<rob^> ok then
<froud> what I can say, is that it is usual for KDE to ship HTML
<froud> therefore there is a lot more scope for advanced feature use in the kde/ section of the repos
<froud> you will notice that the kuserguide has a glossary and index section
<froud> and uses XInclude
<jjesse> yes i did
<froud> the aboutkubuntu document is actually an XInclude from the aboutkubuntu/C/ directory
<froud> another feature of the KDE docs is that they will utilize the help:/ kio-slave
<froud> the CSS and refs to KDE docs are setup using this IO-SLAVE
<froud> For an example of kio-slave usage see the kquickguide
<froud> the application of profiling is KDE docs is not out of the question because KDE ships html
<froud> it may be a possability that kde docs can therefore use profiling, it would be especially useful when maintaining versions for i386 and PPC
<froud> I also see application for DCOP
<froud> but wont go there for enow :-)
<froud> jjesse: do you know what peices you want to write yet?
<jjesse> froud not yet, but i mean i can work on the preface, but won't it be just copying and pasting from the gnome userguide?
<froud> Not if you dont want to. You do what you feel is good for the book. Let the creativity flow, feel free to think outside the box
<jjesse> ok i'll work on the preface, i'll attach a <writing> to it like mentioned
<froud> btw. I hope you guys are checking my work :-) and will build on it. Please note that I am not attached to the words I write
<froud> I changes the patches from gtaylor
<froud> you may have noticed
<froud> I expanded on them substantially
<jjesse> ok
<jjesse> likewise i'm not attached to the words i write otherwise i wouldn't be doing it in an open way like this
<rob^> I'm attached, I'm just a giving type of person :)
<froud> also checkout Related Documents //sect1[@id="sect-related"] 
<jjesse> froud grin sometimes it seems like all you do all day long is write docs for here :)
<jjesse> i wish i had time like that
* froud on bongo drums
<froud> jjesse: believe me I am doing much more than just writing docs here :-)
<froud> http://lnix.net/~froud/ updated
<Njal> lo
<froud> hi
<froud> Njal: nice patch dude
<froud> thanks
<froud> ;-)
<Njal> Not a problem, we're all here to do the same things
<froud> sure
<Njal> can i ask who had the same GNOME problem as i did? Someone needs the bug report number
<uniq> froud: just a question; is there a reason for the big F in 'Free terms' - http://lnix.net/~froud/about-kubuntu/C/index.html - under "The team behind Kubuntu makes the following commitment to its users:" second commitment.
<froud> it's not technically correct to write it that way, I guess the author was using some poetic license
<froud> I'll patch it
<uniq> nice :)
<uniq> froud: accesibility -> accessibility on the next line
<froud> snap, I just did a spell check and fixed a few
<froud> uniq: btw, spelling must be US not UK :-)
<uniq> ok.
<froud> but you are right that is a mistake
<froud> uniq: has there been any decision on KOffice for Kubuntu yet?
<uniq> no.. but after the discussion in #ubuntu-meeting i have a feeling oo.o will be selected.
<uniq> but no decision were made.
<froud> :-)
<froud> OK
<uniq> " that the Free Software community" and "principles of free software and open source development" - why the difference in capitalization ? 
<jeffsch> uniq: good question
<jeffsch> maybe the author thought that since "Free Software" is used as an adjective,
<jeffsch> and "free software" is used as a noun, there should be a difference.
<uniq> i have no clue.. it's not my native language. just looks strage to me.
<froud> native noun "Free Software
<froud> free software non-native
<froud> but in reality both could be lower case
<froud> ppl wont note the difference :-)
<froud> uniq: you're actually quite good at this. want a full time job :-)
<jeffsch> froud: by "native" you mean "nominative"?
<jeffsch> in any case, this situation is something we should consider for the style guide
<uniq> froud: i have a full-sparetime-jobb on kubuntu already. support+some packaging but hey.,. i can sleep less :)
<froud> yep participation on FOSS projects leads to sleep deprivation (spelling)
<uniq> correct spelling.. says 'dict deprivation' :)
<jeffsch> yes, and docteam has brought me many sleepless nights :-)
<froud> jeffsch: perhaps use rule that we use lc unless it is a noun
<jeffsch> froud: perhaps. there are lots of grey areas there...
<froud> jeffsch: that's why I dont want to be the editor ;-)
<jeffsch> in editing class we discovered there is much debate between lc an uc in such cases
<jeffsch> it boils down to personal preference
<froud> I may write all day, but punctuation, spelling and grammar, etc. are my pain
<froud> that goodness for editors
<jeffsch> yeah. writers don't care much about that stuff. "The editor will catch it..."
<froud> yep, and editors love me cause I don't argue about their decisions :-)
<uniq> "Kubuntu is KDE, a powerful Free Software graphical " - again this looks strange to me. what was you conclusion? 
<jeffsch> we're leaning toward lower case at the moment
<uniq> "It combines ease of use, contemporary functionality, and outstanding graphical design " - comma? 
<froud> which the one before the and
<jeffsch> you think there's an extra one before the "and"?
<uniq> yes?
<froud> in this case it is correct
<jeffsch> yikes! another gray area
<froud> IMHO
<jeffsch> a comma before the and is called the "series comma"
<froud> Chicago Manual of Style agrees with me
<uniq> i compared to " email software, programming languages and tools and of course, several games."
<jeffsch> most style guides want the series comma, but others hate it
<jeffsch> two comma errors there...
<jeffsch> should be no comma after "course"
<froud> jeffsch: have you noticed how Chicago and Sunday Times don't agree
<jeffsch> nope. but I'm not surprised.
<uniq> " In recent times, much work has been done to increase compatibility " comma? 
<froud> that one is correct IMHO
<uniq> ok.
<mdke> the doc must be really good if we're worrying about commas
<jeffsch> but in recent times would probably be better as Recently,
<froud> email software, programming languages, tools, and of course, several games
<froud> perhaps
<froud> the and  .... and is very American thang
<froud> don't like it personally
<jeffsch> "programming languages and tools" means "programming languages and programming tools"
<froud> Hmm yeah
<froud> good point
<jeffsch> it's where the serial comma comes in handy :)
<froud> mail software, programming languages and tools, and of course, several games.
<froud> better?
<jeffsch> i still worry about the comma after course. I'll have to look up the rule
<froud> uniq: which doc you now on?
<uniq> http://lnix.net/~froud/about-kubuntu/C/index.html
<uniq> just finished reading it.
<uniq> http://lnix.net/~froud/kubuntu-install/C/ch01.html - second sentence -very- long. 
<froud> agreed
<uniq> and the last sentence is long too.
<froud> Alternatively, if you do have an operating system installed, that you do not mind erasing and replacing with <phrase os="gnome">Ubuntu</phrase>
<froud> 			<phrase os="kde">Kubuntu</phrase>.</para>
<froud> sorry
<froud> This revision of the book assumes that you will be
<froud> 			installing on a computer that does not have another operating system already installed. Alternatively, if you do have an operating system installed, that you do not mind erasing and replacing with <phrase os="gnome">Ubuntu</phrase>
<froud> 			<phrase os="kde">Kubuntu</phrase>.</para>
<uniq> much better :)
<froud> now where was the other sentence?
<uniq> the last one in the same chapter.
<froud> Furthermore, this revision does not cover all possible permutations
<froud> 			of the installation process, but assumes the default options of the
<froud> 			installation system.</para>
<jeffsch> how about: This document is designed to help you install Kubuntu on a computer that does not already have an operating system. The installation procedure will erase existing operating systems.
<froud> jeffsch: nice
<uniq> maybe specify that by following the documents instructions.. 
<uniq> The installation procedure won't neccessarily erase existing operating systems.
<froud> the default will
<froud> <para>This document is designed to help you install <phrase os="gnome"
<froud> 				>Ubuntu</phrase>
<froud> 			<phrase os="kde">Kubuntu</phrase> on a computer that does not
<froud> 			already have an operating system. The installation procedure will
<froud> 			erase existing operating systems.</para>
<froud> Perhaps the default installation will ...
<froud> Or perhaps Following the default installation procedure described here will ...
<uniq> " Following the installation procedure described here will"
* froud thinks this a very interesting and interactive way of editing ;-)
<uniq> http://shots.osdir.com/slideshows/slideshow.php?release=305&slide=9 - you get to choose anyway - it's not specified in the installation that erasing everything is the default way. 
<froud> yes you do get to choose
<froud> but if you were to select only the default selections of the install program, no changes, it would format the disk. Perhaps I need to rework this installation for greater flexability
* froud makes note in kjots
<jeffsch> it might not be documented, but erasing everything (at least in Hoary install) is the default
<uniq> default as in if you just press enter.. yes.
<uniq> but the installer doesn'
<jeffsch> scary
<froud> jeffsch: when I first wrote it I followed the defaults
<uniq> t tell you that erasing everything is the default.
<froud> jeffsch: I think I need to reiew this cours eof action
<froud> uniq: yes
<froud> or perhaps changing the whole approach to the procedure
<Burgundavia> the installer is likely to compeletely change for breezy
<Burgundavia> so don't write too much right now
<uniq> oh.. nice to know. :)
<froud> Burgundavia: Graphical Right?
<Burgundavia> yes
<uniq> then i'll just skip that chapter :)
<froud> yeah
<Burgundavia> unified live and install cds
<froud> uniq: :-)
<froud> Huhuh?
<froud> that is news
<froud> cool idea
<uniq> i kinda knew that.. though.. just not thinking.
<froud> happens to me all the time, I call it a brain fart
<froud> dudes I'm taking an early night today. uniq any other wishes, just post to me or the docteam list
<jeffsch> gotta run. bbl
<froud> cheers jeffsch 
<jeffsch> cya
<uniq> ok. i will take a break myself. move from sarge -> hoary on my server.
<Burgundavia> I wonder how many machines that have migrated debian-->ubuntu
<uniq> i've migrated 5 myself :)
<Burgundavia> I moved RH 8 --> Warty
<jjesse> i moved SUSE -> Warty 
<jjesse> i hated how long it took to install SUSE
<uniq> i belive in love at first sight.. it happend to me with apt-get :)
<mdke> unified live and install cd?
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> will the opencd project stuff be on it?
<Burgundavia> I assume so
<Burgundavia> I have no idea
<Burgundavia> I am just a hot-air producer
<mdke> god knows how they will fit it all on
<squinn> mdke, hey.
<mdke> hi there squinn 
<squinn> hi mdke.
<squinn> I'll be back in a bit, mdke.
<mdke> ok
<mdke> robitaille, lovely work on IconsPage
<robitaille> thanks.  the missing icons were annoying me :)
<robitaille> now we just need to scan the other pages for these same icons that point to the old locations.  Shouldn't be too much work...I don't think we use so many icons in that wiki
<mdke> robitaille, it will take bloomin ages ;)
<mdke> robitaille, but if there are a few of us to share the icons, it will be ok
<Burgundavia> ugh
<Burgundavia> I hate our wiki
<Burgundavia> it like using windows
<Burgundavia> it is
<mdke> don't make me kick you
<robitaille> the few icons I searched for last nigh only came back with 1-2 hits each.  The most hits were from the WikiGardening page (probably obsolete), and some of the tests for possible replacement to the frontpage (are still pushging this?)
<mdke> blasphemy
<Burgundavia> it is!
<robitaille> I'll be back a while....meeting at work
<mdke> robitaille, you should try the common icons
<mdke> later
<mdke> Burgundavia, c'mon dude
<Burgundavia> it gets the job done, but it is very painful to do anything in
<mdke> works good here
<Burgundavia> it works
<Burgundavia> it is not elegant
<Burgundavia> it is little polish items that bother me
<Burgundavia> better tables support and categories and watchlists
<mdke> Burgundavia, you're just spoilt!
<mdke> put up with it man
<Burgundavia> I am
<Burgundavia> if you say I am spoilt, I am going to go back and use windows
<mdke> lol
<mdke> go ahead
<mdke> you'll feel the pain
<Burgundavia> tell me, why is there no category:documentation
<Burgundavia> with sub categories like Windows Interop and Media and stuff?
<Burgundavia> and no templates
<mdke> Burgundavia, you have to make categories for them to exist
<mdke> no one has made documentation yet
<Burgundavia> can add the category to a page and create it from there?
<Burgundavia> ie
<Burgundavia> on wp, I can add [[Category:Airports of Blah] ]  and if it doesn't exist, it makes it a red link
<Burgundavia> I can then click on the red link and make the category
<Burgundavia> oh, and the difference between a page and non-page link to too small
<mdke> Burgundavia, yeah same thing, write CategoryDocumentation in a page, then click on it and make the categorypage
* Burgundavia grumbles about CamelCase
<Burgundavia> can I have subcategories?
<mdke> describe the behaviour you want
<Burgundavia> what do you think about dropping CamelCase on our wiki?
<mdke> i like the easy linking of CamelCase
<Burgundavia> I like [[link] ] 
<mdke> but its not as well implemented on this wiki as the old one
<Burgundavia> I find camelcase makes reading hard and is non-intutive
<mdke> Burgundavia, in zwiki if you renamed a page, it renamed all the links to it, so CamelCase was necessary for that
<mdke> WP doesn't do that, so [[link] ]  works
<mdke> Moin doesn't do it either
<Burgundavia> if you move a page in WP
<Burgundavia> a redirect is created
<mdke> correct
<Burgundavia> which works fine
<mdke> that's also the solution they are considering in Moin
<mdke> but its not as clean as autoupdating links
<Burgundavia> mediawiki has a "what links here" functionality
<Burgundavia> the issue with that is the sometimes you can have a link like [[foo|bar] ] 
<mdke> all wikis do
<Burgundavia> where you see "blah blah bar blah" but the link is to foo
<Burgundavia> the other issue with camelcase is the making of links you don't want to have as links
<mdke> yes
<mdke> but that has the advantage that you can easily create such pages
<Burgundavia> look at that --> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page
<Burgundavia> and try to imagine it as camelcase
<Burgundavia> it would be an unreadable mess
<mdke> yes
<mdke> you don't HAVE to have CamelCase in our wiki
<mdke> why don't you just make links without?
<mdke> ["link"] 
<Burgundavia> if we have half and half, we get into the mess that we had earlier
<mdke> hmm
<Burgundavia> with rst and moin and blah being supported
<Burgundavia> actually, WP still supports CamelCase
<mdke> well thats a bad comparison
<mdke> but i see your point to a certain extent
<Burgundavia> our language is designed to have Capital letters At the End of sentEnces
<Burgundavia> s/end/Beginning
<mdke> lol
<Burgundavia> See hOw muCH harDer thiS iS To Read?
<mdke> harder, but its l3tt
<Burgundavia> that is why CamelCase sucks
<mdke> 33
<Burgundavia> IT IS ALSO WHY THIS IS ALSO MUCH HARDER TO READ
<Burgundavia> basically, our brain does not grok CamelCase easily
<mdke> heh
<Burgundavia> that being said, would you support a change away from CamelCase?
<Burgundavia> all the pages would be moved
<Burgundavia> links would be made explicit
<Burgundavia> I would prefer [[] ] , to conform with mediawiki
<mdke> I don't think its worth the hassle
<Burgundavia> I do
<mdke> in WP is it worth it because there are SO many links
<mdke> making it hard to read otherwise
<Burgundavia> documentation is very similar to encyclopedia articles
<mdke> but i don't see the problem with ours, and it would be more work which wouldn't be justified IMO
<Burgundavia> it is not hard to do
<mdke> Burgundavia, yes but wikipedia articles LINK a lot
<Burgundavia> so can ours
<Burgundavia> there is no reason for ours not to
<mdke> its not necessary
<mdke> in the encyclopedia, linking is very cool
<Burgundavia> our wiki is almost impossible to navigate currently
<Burgundavia> unless you know the exact page you are going to
<mdke> it needs work
<mdke> and better linking and categories
<Burgundavia> this is part of that work
<mdke> but there is always the search
<Burgundavia> right
<Burgundavia> more links make it harder to read
<Burgundavia> as per the CamelCase stuff I just told you about
<Burgundavia> but we need more links
<mdke> yes, but not necessarily all over paragraphs like in WP
<mdke> anyway there is nothing to stop you starting dialogue about it on the ML
<mdke> its an interesting question
<Burgundavia> I think I will
<mdke> actually sometimes I feel that there is too much linking on WP
<mdke> that also makes things less easy to read
<Burgundavia> I have a link for you
<Burgundavia> just a sec
<mdke> at risk of making you angry ;)
<Burgundavia> I have a funny link for you
<squinn> mdke, yesterdays patch will be the last one i send.
<mdke> squinn, good
<mdke> you have commit access?
<Burgundavia> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=DeKalb-Peachtree_Airport&diff=prev&oldid=12544766
<squinn> mdke, working on getting it now
<mdke> cool
<squinn> a bit of a problem with pgp
<mdke> squinn, we can help. So that is not why you said that the patch was your last?
<mdke> Burgundavia, :)
<mdke> oh that's your edit!
<mdke> haha
<Burgundavia> my edit is the removal
<mdke> yeah
<Burgundavia> well, I got my first vote for support
<mdke> Burgundavia, what is that?
<squinn> mdke, that is
<squinn> i'm talking to guy-in-charge about pgp
<squinn> its why he cant create pgp yet
<squinn> er commit account*
<mdke> squinn, you can still make patches!
<mdke> squinn, we encourage you to work on the docs
<squinn> i know
<squinn> but my commit account should be ready within the hour
<mdke> well then we look forward to seeing your work
<squinn> yep yep
<Burgundavia> http://moinmoin.wikiwikiweb.de/FeatureRequests/NameSpaces
<Burgundavia> http://moinmoin.wikiwikiweb.de/FeatureRequests/Templates
<Burgundavia> can I have subcategories?
<Burgundavia> can CategoryWindowsDoc be a category of Documentation?
* Burgundavia grumbles about cludgy category handling
<Burgundavia> too quiet
<Burgundavia> more debate
<Burgundavia> dogs vs cats
* robitaille is allergic to both...
<Burgundavia> rofl
* Burgundavia has a metric smegload of open bugs that he has filed
<mdke> wiki bugs?
<mdke> i like cats
<mdke> dogs smell and are hairy
<Burgundavia> no, bug on anything
<robitaille> I only have a few still open.  I really need to get my Breezy partition working again and then I'll be back in the thick of it.
<Burgundavia> some of mine are truly bluesky
<squinn> robitaille, how much did you partition for breezy?
<robitaille> 10gb.  I have a 30gb at home...6 for Win98, 10 for Hoary and 10 for Breezy. (the rest are shared stuff between the various OSes)
<squinn> ah oky
<mdke> i might stick a breezy partition on
<mdke> 5gig enough?
* mdke gives Burgundavia the official title of "Docteam ideas man"
<robitaille> 5 should work...mine with a very empty home directory is at 3.1gb
<Burgundavia> I prefer the title Hot Air Producer, myself
<mdke> Burgundavia, i was just being polite
* mdke ducks
<robitaille> Maybe Ubuntu needs a "Contributor of the Month"  With a picture and all on a wiki/award page :)
<Burgundavia> right
#ubuntu-doc 2006-06-26
<jenda> mdke: ping?
<jenda> mdke: ping?
<mvirkkil> mdke: I've been away a couple of days. You wrote about running tidy on the docbook. Would you like to elaborate?
<robotgeek> mvirkkil: is that after commit?
<mvirkkil> robotgeek: What do you mean?
<mvirkkil> robotgeek: I'm working on automagic moinmoin->docbook stuff.
<robotgeek> mvirkkil: oh great, the SOC project? 
<robotgeek> mvirkkil: anyways, all the best with it, and hope you all success. It will make our lives much easier :)
<nixternal> anyone know who i need to contact to get information about creating a mailing list for a LoCo?
<linuxmonkey> Local's Only Crazy Orginization :)
<linuxmonkey> lol
<robitaille> nixternal:  talk to jdub for mailing lists
<nixternal> thx robitaille
<Madpilot> hi all
<nixternal> hey Madpilot
<robitaille> Hi Madpilot 
<nixternal> didn't see you sneak in
<Madpilot> I'm very stealthy sometimes :)
<nixternal> ok bye
<nixternal> ;)
<nixternal> trying to get all this stuff for a Chicago LoCo Team together
<mdke> mvirkkil: elaborate how?
<mdke> mvirkkil: I just mean that the output xml is rather ugly and hard to work with, if you use tidy to clean it up, it would avoid the user having to do it.
<mdke> jenda: pong, pong
<jenda> mdke: ah great :) now to remember what I wanted :)
<jenda> There's a forums section on ubuntu.com - and I'd like to see the Czech forum there.
<mdke> sure
<mdke> can you email me?
<jenda> yuppers
<mdke> thanks
<jenda> mdke: sent.
<jenda> Thanks
<mdke> nixternal: there is an email address on the LoCoTeamHowto page
<mdke> nixternal: in fact, all information you ever need is, or should be, there
<nixternal> thx mdke
<mdke> mailman@lists.ubuntu.com
<nixternal> i think i hit that one also
<nixternal> ya..i hit that one also...
<nixternal> thx
<mvirkkil> mdke: I mean how is it ugly? What would the tidy program do? Usually when I hear people saying that the xml is ugly they mean it's cluttered with namespace declarations, possibly invalid etc. This is not the case here.
<mpt__> The element names are longer than in HTML :-)
<mpt> Does that count as ugliness?
<rob> can the element names be shorten and still mean the same thing?
<mvirkkil> rob: nope
<rob> icky
<rob> how long are we talking?
<mvirkkil> rob: <para> instead of <p> ? 
<mvirkkil> But you could always create a shorter version and convert it.
<rob> thats the actual docbook markup, no it can't be shorten without a lot of work (afaik)
<rob> yep
<rob> but why not then create your own schema?
<mvirkkil> But I'm pretty sure  mdke didn't mean this.
<rob> Gentoo uses a really simple markup
<rob> for its docs
<mvirkkil> rob: Well, the idea is to use the moinwiki in the future, and then convert that to docbook. That's what I'm working on.
<rob> are you the one working on the SoC project?
<mvirkkil> rob: Yup.
<rob> ah cool, I was actually going to submit something similar myself, but lack of spare time killed me
<mvirkkil> rob: Close to killing me too. Sent it it on the 11th hour.
<rob> GuideXML, thats what Gentoo uses, its much simpler and has less tags then docbook
<rob> http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/xml-guide.xml
<rob> I think its pretty cool, but its not docbook, so yeah :)
<mvirkkil> rob: Quickly browsed through it.
<mvirkkil> rob: I see very little sence in using it.
<mpt> and then there's MAML
<rob> mvirkkil, it is much simpler, thus much easier to learn
<mvirkkil> rob: I wouldn't say much, it looks a bit simpler. But not much.
<rob> thats the only major benefit
<mpt> MAML is crack because it includes built-in support for FAQs, which, almost by definition, you won't know exist until after the help has shipped
<rob> mpt, so does docbook (we used it in the first version of the Desktop Guide)
<mpt> Well, we already know docbook is crack :-)
<mpt> It's just the least evil
<rob> heh
<rob> yep
<mdke> mvirkkil: I mean it isn't nicely laid out with a line per element and indented
<mvirkkil> mdke: Ahh.. Pretty printing.
<froud> man Dapper is solid
<CarlFK> before I create a new wiki page - anyone know of one that talks about upgrading an existing app using apt-get source/wget newwer source... ?
<linuxmonkey> CarlFK: we stay away from specific install apps. 
<linuxmonkey> :)
<CarlFK> huh?
<CarlFK> I meant a generic version of https://help.ubuntu.com/community/BuildingWineFromSource
<linuxmonkey> lol yeah all those  "sudo apt-get build-dep wine" will have to get changed im preaty sure..lol
<linuxmonkey> nvm
<linuxmonkey> i just read what it was.. brain fart
<CarlFK> wget https://help.ubuntu.com/favicon.ico 404 - who's 'problem' is that?
<nixternal> CarlFK: seems as if it isn't there at all
<jjesse> i think mdke can fix that problem CarlFK
<CarlFK> where/how should something like that be reported?  launchpad?
<CarlFK> or do I just start shouting about it in -dev? :)
<nixternal> lol
<jjesse> mdke in this channel is responsible for help.ubuntu.com
<jjesse> i don't know if there is something you can file a bug against or not, but ping him and help can fix it
<CarlFK> i'll post to u-doc mailist
<jjesse> .
<nixternal> ..
<LaserJock> ...
<nixternal> jjesse: kubuntu team has a meeting today..i will be there to listen in...do you want to check it out concerning information for the switching documentation?  maybe see if Riddell has any ideas he might want to add?
<jjesse> would love to how 21:00 is just when i'm leaving work today  and i can't stay late due to a softball game
<nixternal> ok..did you mean 21:00?  the meeting is 16:00 for me and 17:00 for you...i will be there, so if there is anything you want me to add to their agenda, i can do that and then report it back to you
<jjesse> yup 17:00 is when i leave work
<nixternal> ahhh
<jjesse> i would like to hold off on discussing the switching guide until the three of us can get some more concrete information put together, i'll update a subpage of my wiki page tongiht
<nixternal> ok...i can do some reporting or whatever if you need it
<jjesse> sure
<nixternal> if you want...you can add something to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kubuntu/Meetings   agenda, and i will be more then happy to cover the points if needed
<jjesse> sure, let me think if there is anything i need
<nixternal> great..i am here if needed...drinking coffee and listening the weather report ;)
<jjesse> and how is the wheather across the pond?
<nixternal> nice today so far...stormed like crazy last night
<jjesse> it was windy last night here, cool but windy
<nixternal> it is cool today
<nixternal> Current weather for Chicago / West Chicago, Dupage Airport : Few clouds at 1800 feet, Temperature: 66F, Pressure: 30.02" Hg, Wind: 12 MPH NE
<nixternal> sudo apt-get update | sudo apt-get upgrade    << gnupg update to patch vulnerability
<ompaul> jjesse, ahhhh there you are
<ompaul> :-)
<ompaul> hehe
<ompaul> I knew I recognised the name but was not sure from where
<jjesse> grin
<jjesse> trying to figure why the sparc guide is not on help.ubuntuc.om
<ompaul> well I stopped lurking and clicked on docs to ask that question, guess I can say it is in safe hands ;-)
<jjesse> yup it is
<nixternal> jjesse: you have roxy burger by you at all?
<jjesse> nixternal: nope
<nixternal> roxies, the outdoor burger joint..
<nixternal> i gotta get into benton harbor to get me one...and soon
<nixternal> alrighty..got get me some ice cream and snacks b4 the meeting starts...the old !ping !pong is in effect..bbiaf ;)
<nixternal> mdke: it seems that an agenda item for the Kubuntu Meeting in 10 minutes is suggesting a KDE/Kubuntu theme and redirectors for doc.kubuntu.org and help.kubuntu.org, whatever they mean by the last..i will be partaking in this meeting...any items need to be suggested or conversed about..and what is the status of the kde theme?
<nixternal> i know there is a kde theme in the making
<jjesse> i think that was my idea nixternal
<nixternal> it has imbrandon's name on it
<jjesse> i was hoping we could get the same themes for the help.ubuntu.com wiki
<jjesse> and also get a redirect from help.kubuntu.org to help.ubuntu.com
<nixternal> i believe they are in the process of porting the themes
<jjesse> i think that was the big suggestion and you are correct they are
<jjesse> mdke and i spoke about it
<nixternal> how did imbrandon's name get on it ;)
<nixternal> ok..
<jjesse> maybe he suggested it to the agenda
<nixternal> i will relay that info during the meeting when that topic comes up
<jjesse> thanks
<jjesse> getting ready to leave
<jjesse> but i know mdke is on top of those issues
<nixternal> alright...good luck with the game btw
<jjesse> thanks hoping it doesn't rain, looks like it out side
<nixternal> it stopped raining here and became really nice outside
<jjesse> nice
<jjesse> i love that therer are 48 updates to a fresh install of xp service pack 2
<nixternal> lol
<nixternal> i wouldn't know..i haven't booted xp in a long time
<jjesse> i work on it every day
<nixternal> hehe
<nixternal> as i am sure i will be too just as soon as I decide to start working and stop enjoying the summer ;)
<jjesse> grin
<jjesse> ok work's over :(
#ubuntu-doc 2006-06-27
<ompaul> any idea where the fonts for the ubuntu logo are?
<LaserJock> there is a package you can install, but I can't remember the exact name
<nixternal> sudo apt-get install ttf-ubuntu-title
<LaserJock> ah
<nixternal> to late for ompaul though
<jsgotangco> jjesse: the kubuntu laptop testing makes sense though, the problem is who will be focusing on things that won't work. KDE does some funky stuff that GNOME does differently and currently, most function keys fixed in Ubuntu only work with GNOME
<jsgotangco> but some work like in toshiba sets, while KDE does things differently with Thinkpads and VAIOs
<jsgotangco> would be interesting to see the difference though
<jjesse> jsgotangco: i agree, i don't know who would be heading it, i'm just trying to bring attention to it
<jsgotangco> its worth pursuing though
<jjesse> i'm glad you think so
<jsgotangco> but we can't expect mjg59 supporting it
<jjesse> he heads up the laptop team?
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jsgotangco> its a gnome ballgame at the moment
<jjesse> agreed
<jjesse> though i thought i heard some discussion in regards to splitting up the release schedule?
<jsgotangco> but it has been wildly successful
<jsgotangco> ubuntu/kubuntu?
<jsgotangco> dunno
<jjesse> yeah splitting kubuntu into a seperate release schedule
<jsgotangco> better ask Riddell, most of the kubuntu BOFs werent even published on the BoFicator of LP
<jsgotangco> wasn't able to attend one even
<jjesse> i will, i did notice that, i wonder if there wasn't enough intrest?
<jsgotangco> no that's not it, i dunno, KDE had a lot of people in the summit
<jsgotangco> we even had to loan ellen on some BoFs because she's the usability expert
<jjesse> i noticed that, which is great, i'm big fan of adept usability
<robotgeek> i'm trying to clean the page wiki.ubuntu.com/Kubuntu
<jjesse> yay
<robotgeek> looks like i'm going to move all the developers stuff into its own subpage
<jjesse> cool
<robotgeek> okay, first cleanup is done. i think i'll spend some cleanup on main help site
<robotgeek> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UKUbuntuPresentation -> Delete?
<nixternal> i wouldn't...that seems to be part of some UK team that just started recently
<robotgeek> why is it on help.ubuntu.com? its not documentation :)
<nixternal> true..did they created that after the move?
<nixternal> no...that was created 7 days ago..it hasn't been that long already has it?
<nixternal> no..that was just created 7 days ago...
<robotgeek> nope, maybe move it to wiki.ubuntu.com ?
<nixternal> i don't know why it is CatDoc though
<robotgeek> maybe it got moved by mistake
<nixternal> thats what I would do, unless someone stepped forward and said no
<nixternal> actually..i think it was created right there after the move from the look sof it
<nixternal> if you create a CatDoc on w.u.c it doesn't automatically get moved over correct?
<nixternal> there is a redirect on w.u.c for that page too
<robotgeek> anyways, i think i'll maintain a pagelist, and we can nuke them later on
<Madpilot> nixternal, no, stuff added to CatDoc on wiki.u.c doesn't get moved automagically - that was a one-time deal
<nixternal> ahhh
<nixternal> i knew someone would come to and set me straight ;)
<nixternal> so...was that page added after the move, or transfered due to the move?
<nixternal> well hello there bhuvan
<bhuvan> hello
<Madpilot> nixternal, looks like it was created after the move
<nixternal> ok..thats what i thought...just couldn't remember the actual date that went live
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-doc.log
* jenda prods the channel
<jenda> I need quick hints
* Madpilot prods jenda
<jenda> What is wrong with ubuntuguide.org, doc.gwos.org, easylinux.info?
<jenda> I don't recommend them, but I need good arguments to back me up within my LoCo :)
<jenda> Hello Madpilot.
<Madpilot> ubuntuguide.org is grossly out of date, or was last time I bothered looking at it
<jenda> Well, it's written for Dapper.
<Madpilot> doc.gwos.org has some good stuff, but it's not really complete
<Madpilot> that easylinux one looks a bit like an updated ubuntuguide
<jenda> it is.
<Madpilot> it's got the same problem ug.org does - no explanations, it's all just cookbook stuff
<rob> ubuntuguide.org is responsible for breaking many systems, its up there with automatix IMO
<jenda> to me, it looks as if every single one was a huge waste of manpower.
<jenda> rob: that bad?
<rob> yep
<Madpilot> jenda, yeah, that too
<rob> the desktop guide was actually originally based on it, but turned into something a heck more reliablel
<rob> slip of the finger there :)
<jenda> OK
<rob> for Breezy at least on help.ubuntu.com there was a one page version of the desktop guide (which would be similar in format at least), not sure if that was kept for Dapper
<Madpilot> don't think it was
<jenda> Nope - but I'd like to see it again. IT's great for Ctrl+F in firefox.
<rob> yep
<Madpilot> bug mdke at some point - a one-long-file version of the HTML could probably be generated
<rob> yeah, pretty easily
<jenda> yes, I will bug him.
<Madpilot> I helped write the Ubuntu Desktop Guide, but I leave the actual generation/creation up to Matt :)
<rob> iirc its just a matter of passing the right option when generating the html
<Kamping_Kaiser> when does the DocteamProjects page change to reflect edgy docs status? 
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-doc.log
(Madpilot/#ubuntu-doc) Kamping_Kaiser, hmm, it should probably do that soon :)
(Kamping_Kaiser/#ubuntu-doc) cool :) 
(Madpilot/#ubuntu-doc) fire a message to the mailing list if it doesn't happen by the end of this week
<jenda> https://help.ubuntu.com/
<jenda> It would be nice if it were possible to access the other languages from there.
<jenda> damn - it's almost impossible to find the desktop guide.
<jenda> (in czech)
<jsgotangco> yes it does make sense
<jenda> can you help me find the guide? I need the link...
<jsgotangco> hmm
<jsgotangco> hold on
<jsgotangco> what is czech?
<jsgotangco> cz?
<jenda> got it.
<jenda> cs
<jenda> you just substitute the C in the url
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jsgotangco> C is the default for GNOME
<jenda> OK
<kbrooks> Hello
<kbrooks> https://help.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/desktopguide/C/gnome-app-install.html
<kbrooks> Line quoted: "
<kbrooks> Some applications and packages are not available to install using Add/Remove Applications. If you cannot find the package you are looking for, click Advanced which will open the Synaptic package manager (see below)."
<kbrooks> Below? Shouldn't that mean Next?
<jenda> hello kbrooks, you should probably ping whoever is in charge of that.
<jenda> Or, sending an email to <ubuntu-doc@lists.ubuntu.com> might be a good idea too.
<mdke> jenda: help.ubuntu.com uses the default language in the browser
<mdke> kbrooks: I think "below" is ok.
<jenda> mdke: that's nice... but doesn't solve much. I prefer english opera, but sometimes need the czech guide to link folks to - am the only one? ;)
<jenda> I really think there should be a language-crossroads or something like that.
<mdke> jenda: no, I don't think you are the only one. We can think about adding a link, but I'm not sure how we'd do it effectively
<mdke> jenda: in general local language documentation should be provided on the locoteam site, I think
<jenda> well, I'm working on that for my own loco team... but can't do it globally.
<mdke> sure
<nixternal> mdke: it seems the only major request from the Kubuntu-devel meeting yesterday was...are you read?   Kubuntu theme for h.u.c and a redirect for help.kubuntu.com, which isn't even registered dns wise
<nixternal> s/read/ready
<jenda> However, if the line saying Ubuntu Desktop Guide html pdf etc. also said 'other languages' and linked to an index of those - that's effective and simple, IMO
<mdke> jenda, I can help locoteams use our documentation. I'll think about how to make an index of languages
<mdke> nixternal: I have discussed that in email with jon and jjesse
<nixternal> great
* nixternal checks that off the list of "things to do today"
<mdke> should be easy for the wiki...
<mdke> no idea how to do it for the static pages
<jjesse> !ops
<rob> ?
<jsgotangco> lol
<jjesse> just wondered if it worked in this channel as well
<rob> heh
<rob> no ubotu
<Kamping_Kaiser> jjesse, thats a dangerous way to find out ;)
<jenda> robitaille: thx for the fridge/meeting.
<robitaille> jenda:  np
<robitaille> it's my job :)
<jenda> 
<jjesse> welcome jsgotangco
<jsgotangco> hi
<jsgotangco> welcme to what? heh
<nixternal> welcome to our whacky world ;)
<jsgotangco> meh i've been here since late 2004 heh
<jjesse> mdke: you around, someone in community council is apoplying
<jjesse> that needs some help w/ itialin language team references
<jjesse> i forget when istarted hanging out in this wacky world
<jsgotangco> around the time i wrote the quickguide for kubuntu in breezy methinks
<nixternal> i kind of feel bad for that guy in the CC firing line right now...it looks by his wiki he has contributed..but didn't bring any backing
<jsgotangco> or earlier
<jjesse> nixternal: it took me two or three councils before i got in
<jsgotangco> it happens
<nixternal> hehe..i just started hanging out...coming from the Mepis community when they started switching to Ubuntu
<jjesse> i had to bring riddell, mdke and a couple of hours for references :)
<nixternal> thats why I am waiting jjesse...i will take my time and do more work
<jjesse> nixternal: well i would be a refrence for you
<nixternal> im in no rush
<nixternal> i appreciate it jjesse..ALOT!!!
<jjesse> i've been installing office 2007 beta for over an hour :(
<nixternal> maybe the next CC meeting I will apply...i just like working with the community...it keeps me busy and my mind going...im not going anywhere...you are stuck with me for a while ;)
<nixternal> you know jjesse, office2k7 is the only reason i might install windows here again...i definately want to play with it...i have windows on a vm..
<nixternal> i just hope my next job doesn't require me to use windows all the time ;)
<jsgotangco> is it really worth looking?
* jsgotangco isn't really a big office user so he doesn't use that much stuff
<nixternal> it looks like it might be..anyting other then o2k3 is worth looking i think
<nixternal> actually...everything i did with office i can do with OOo
<nixternal> i wish there was better support with Koffice however since i do the K thing ;)
<jsgotangco> i dunno, all my work involves a terminal so...
<nixternal> lol...i remember those days jsgotangco when i worked for sun
<nixternal> i miss it sometimes...but not that much
<jsgotangco> really now
<jsgotangco> most of my work involves either a terminal or a glade interface heh
<nixternal> i used to work at Sun in Downer's Grove and Arlington Heights b4 they closed the offices
<nixternal> i don't know if that sounds like fun anymore ;)
<jsgotangco> heh
<nixternal> most of my work involves messing around here on irc, since im enjoying the summer being a bum in sweet home chicago ;)
<jsgotangco> ahh i wish i could work at home more often
<nixternal> i have been doing some work through tacacs+ though when a client calls screaming
<nixternal> jsgotangco: when you were in chicago, did you deal with any LUG's at all? I am trying to organise the Chicago LoCo Team, as there is a good deal of buzz in the forums and email, I just can't get them into IRC
<jsgotangco> nope not really
<jsgotangco> i thought it was a dead place for LUGs or just didn't stay long enough
<nixternal> they aren't great thats for sure
<nixternal> it is a very dead place for LUGs indead...there are a few posted...they just don't do anything...you might find 1 or 2 that preach FC or Slack
<nixternal> most of them are future script kiddies
<jsgotangco> goodnight
<jjesse> mdke: when you have a chance can you edit the make file for kubuntu to build the adeptupdater.xml and addremoveprograms.xml
<nixternal> documentation team meetings?  plans for any future ones at all?  just looking over DocumentationTeam/MeetingAgenda and notice the 6/16 @1700UTC still posted
<jjesse> are meetings are sometimes few and far apart
<nixternal> kind of figured that...probably the reason for the mass amounts of mail-list action
<LaserJock> I think we should have a doc sprint sometime soon
<nixternal> LaserJock: what happened to the PackagingGuide on the h.u.c?  it is gone with some hax0r message ;)
<nixternal> im j/k...calm down ;)
<LaserJock> shesh
<nixternal> haha
<nixternal> i was reading it..then jjesse let me in on it that you were the master mind..so of course i had to come up with something to mess with you
<LaserJock> I was going to start yelling at Matthew
<nixternal> hahaa
<jjesse> hey dont' get me in troupble
<nixternal> i have it here local anyways...as im sure many of us do...so there wouldn't have been a loss...my cron grabs updates periodically
<nixternal> hahaha jjesse..busted!!!
<nixternal> crimsun showed me where the packaging stuff was..go figure..what doesn't he do or know?
<nixternal> im starting to think he is a bot
<nixternal> ;)
<nixternal> speaking of the east coast though...crimsun has the weather out there been bad??? or are you back up north?
<LaserJock> yes, crimsun is an incredible individual, he seems to know everything and also does a lot of work outside Ubuntu. I have absolutely no idea how he does it
<nixternal> me either
<nixternal> malone to him is like a bone to a dog...try and beat him to the bugs..impossible..
<crimsun> nixternal: it sucked last week, stranding me in the Baltimore/Washington, D.C., airport for 13.5 hours
<crimsun> nixternal: otherwise it's a fairly average summer thus far
<nixternal> good ol' BWI...thats where I used to live..i have a house..well my x does ;) in southern md
<nixternal> she called and said it was bad
<crimsun> yeah, tornado watches up and down the east coast, causing many airports to close
<nixternal> ahhh
<LaserJock> we've got a ton on fires here
<nixternal> the weather channel has said very little
<nixternal> where you at LaserJock?  arizona, california, nevada?
<nixternal> ;)
<nixternal> those seem to be the 3 burning
<LaserJock> NV
<nixternal> oh, and co
<LaserJock> 14 mi. from CA
<LaserJock> we had over a dozen fires start in my area yesterday alone
<nixternal> tad bit smokey then for you
<jjesse> nixternal: so if the packaging guide didn't answer the questions you had on #kubuntu-devel can you get laserjock to update the guide to answer them ??
<LaserJock> 50,000 acres so far
<nixternal> it did answer it jjesse
<nixternal> crimsun of all people showed me ;)
<LaserJock> jjesse: hehe
<nixternal> ya LaserJock. i seen where lightning caused a few more over night
<LaserJock> supposed to be the same this afternoon
<LaserJock> could get pretty bad
<nixternal> ya..they showed no rain, but wind for that entire area today
<LaserJock> it rains, but with 10% humidity it doesn't get to the ground
<nixternal> thats exactly what they said
<nixternal> i was like huh..it rains but it doesn't
<nixternal> hehe
<nixternal> time of year to be a smoke jumper
<LaserJock> yeah, you can actually see it raining above you
<LaserJock> but nothing ever reaches you
<nixternal> wow..now that is a trip
<nixternal> when i stayed in san diego...when it rained, it rained
#ubuntu-doc 2006-06-28
<theCore> hi LaserJock
<LaserJock> hi theCore 
<theCore> LaserJock: did you saw the printed copy of the PG?
<LaserJock> I haven't seen the latest ones
<LaserJock> I got a draft copy a while back from Matthew
<Madpilot> hi all
<theCore> did you saw that ``print offset'' in the GNU licence?
<LaserJock> no, what do you mean exactly?
<theCore> well, there is a page that the text is overlap over the chapter's title in the top of the page
<theCore> s/is// s/over//
<LaserJock> in the license?
<theCore> yep
<theCore> page 80
<theCore> wierd, the PDF is correct, maybe it a print error from Lulu
<Madpilot> don't forget that the PDF that Lulu is using is different from the PDF currently on help.u.c
<theCore> Madpilot: do you still have the Lulu's one?
<Madpilot> no - mdke probably does. I never did download the final Lulu PDFs
<theCore> Hmm...
<theCore> maybe we should send the updated PDFs ...
<theCore> is there any discussions about cross-linking both wikis?
<Madpilot> both wikis? you mean wiki.u.c & help.u.c?
<robotgeek> help.u.c now has all user documentation, and w.u.c has other random stuff, am i right?
<LaserJock> where random mostly equals development wiki pages ;-)
<Kamping_Kaiser> and user homes
<Madpilot> robotgeek, in theory, yes
<Madpilot> Kamping_Kaiser, yeah, user homepages is one area we should look into crosslinking - it makes browsing RecentChanges easier
<theCore> because right now the wiki at h.u.c has broken links to the old wiki pages
<Madpilot> interesting - I'm logged in to the new doc wiki, and apparently I don't have deletion rights... odd.
<mdke> Madpilot: hi. We've restricted deletion/renaming rights on the wiki...
<mdke> the intention was to give those rights to wiki team members 
<mdke> but I haven't added anyone yet, lemme add you.
<Madpilot> thanks
<jsgotangco> nice one that'll give order to the wiki
<jenda> Madpilot: any idea where your brother is off to?
<Madpilot> he's in New Orleans, getting pissed and selling Linux to libraries 
<jenda> It'd be nice to see him participate in the marketing team, since he's listed as the team owner.
<jenda> Cool.
<Madpilot> the American Libraries Association annual convention is in NOLA this year, his company sent him down
<mdke> Madpilot: ok, it should work now
<Madpilot> mdke, thanks, will check
<mdke> thanks
<jsgotangco> Madpilot: lol and i thought he said before he's enjoying his job at userful
<jenda> mdke: thanks for the changes on ubuntu.com ;)
<Madpilot> jsgotangco, he's enjoying the travel at the company's expense, anyway :)
<mdke> jenda: np
<jsgotangco> or would he rather go to these conventions and sell ubuntu intead
<jsgotangco> s/intead/instead
<Madpilot> well, he's trying to talk Userful into switching to Ubuntu as their base, instead of whatever they use now (Fedora Core? Can't remember...)
<Madpilot> mdke, so, aside from you and I, who can actuall delete & rename pages on the new wiki currently?
<jsgotangco> Fedora Core
<mdke> Madpilot: henrik and corey. I'll send an email about adding more wiki team members
<Madpilot> cool
<mdke> and maybe establishing some kind of request system for page deletions/renaming
<Madpilot> RFD like Wikipedia has?
<Madpilot> Requests For Deletion
<mdke> quite
<jenda> Is there a team-mass-email type of thing in launchpad? (apart from the mailing list, since not everyone on the team has to be on the list)
<jenda> (sorry for OT)
<Madpilot> mdke, something as simple as CategoryProposedDeletion or CategoryRFD would work, I think...
<mdke> jenda: some emails get sent to teams, such as bugs and so on. Otherwise, no
<mdke> Madpilot: yeah
<jenda> mdke: I meant send an email to every member of a team I administer.
<mdke> jenda: you can't do that, you have to get a mailing list and ask the team to sign up
<mdke> or sign them up :)
<jenda> mdke: I could do that ;)
<jenda> Or I can just emali them manually - not that hard to do.
<jenda> Except there are over 70 of them :)
<mdke> big team
<jenda> Marketing Team.
<mdke> i can't believe the marketing team has 70 active contributors...
<jsgotangco> because it was an open team before?
<mdke> either that or people get approved without having to be an active contributor
<mdke> anyhow, work, see yall
<jsgotangco> ciao
<jenda> mdke: it doesn't
<jenda> mdke: that's exactly my point - I want to prune the member list. It might raise a small piece of hell, but having a list of 70 members when only 5 are active is worse than having none, IMO
<jenda> Anyway - pruning vs. not pruning will be discussed at today's meeting. If anyone's interested - all welcome.
<robitaille> there was a spur of interest into the marketing team 6+ months ago...that led to the mailing list, and all these people getting into the team.  Then the interest died down...I suspect most of these people don't even realize they are still on it nowadays
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jsgotangco> i guess that LP team needs a bit of cleaning up
<jenda> What I'll do tonight after the meeting is send an email to every person on that list (and the _other_ list on the wiki) and if those people don't respond in a month that they want to stay part of the team, I will simply remove them. _After the meeting_ because I'll first ask the others what they think about it.
<jenda> hello ompaul.
<ompaul> morning jenda 
<mdke> jenda: pruning is definitely a good idea
<Madpilot> jsgotangco or mdke: neither link in the Wiki section of https://launchpad.net/people/ubuntu-doc actually leads to a real page right now - might want to fix that sometime ;)
<Madpilot> need sleep - suddenly it's 0230 - later, all
<jsgotangco> meh k
<mdke> good idea
<matthewrevell> Morning chaps.
<matthewrevell> We're getting some Marketing Team meetings going, first is tonight
<jsgotangco> hmm how do you change the wiki link?
<matthewrevell> I wonder if any Doc Team types would be interested in popping along, as we have some cross over.
<jsgotangco> what time is that?
<matthewrevell> jsgotangco: 19:00 UTC in #ubuntu-meeting
<jsgotangco> meh...3am
<jsgotangco> :)
<matthewrevell> :(
<jsgotangco> will try if i get to wake up all of a sudden
<matthewrevell> Cool :)
<mdke> jsgotangco: you can't change wiki links, I made a redirect
<jsgotangco> ahh good i was thinking of the same thanks
<apokryphos> what would you have to do to move a page from the old w.u.c to h.u.c? I've added CategoryDocumentation but doesn't seem to go over. What am I missing?
<mdke> see https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2006-June/006541.html
<mdke> jjesse: ping
<mdke> apokryphos: or here https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2006-June/006597.html
<apokryphos> ah, so the page has to be copied over
<mdke> yes
<jjesse> mdke: pong
<mdke> jjesse: the kubuntu releasenotes in trunk don't validate
<mdke> jjesse: also, I can't add either of those documents you asked me to add yesterday, because neither of them are valid docbook either
<jjesse> mdke: hmm i thought i had them validating yesterday
<jjesse> i''ll get them validating today
<jjesse> grumble grumble 
<mdke> thanks
<trappist> kubuntu release notes come a lot closer to validating now, but there's one left I can't figure out
<jjesse> trappist: thanks for taking care of that, i can look at the rest
<jjesse> trappist: do you have commit rights?
<trappist> yeah
<trappist> it's up
<jjesse> cool
<jjesse> trappist: did you copy your changes to branches/dapper/kubuntu as well as ttrunk?
<trappist> no, didn't know it was affected
<trappist> I can do that if you'd like
<jjesse> could you please, i think they build dapper-updates from branches instead of trunk
<trappist> certainly
<trappist> the file in dapper gets the same validation error as the one in trunk is getting now
<trappist> the one I couldn't fix
<jjesse> ok i'll take a look
<nixternal> arg..i had planned for today, a marketing meeting, a little marketing research for my LoCo, and then some wiki work...then the phone call hits..pizza party tonight...what a way to end a hump day i guess...thats a lot of stuff i gotta get done quicker now ;( wheee
<jenda> good luck, nixternal 
<nixternal> thx ;)
<jjesse> mdke: adeptupdater.xml is validating correctly could you please let me know if itsn't for some reason.  i'll be gone all night but you can email me
<mdke> mgalvin: you know that -news goes to 4500 people right?
* mdke questions the advisedness of a test email
* mdke then goes to bed
#ubuntu-doc 2006-06-29
<theCore> hi LaserJock
<LaserJock> hi theCore 
<theCore> LaserJock: how was the Summit?
<LaserJock> good
<LaserJock> lots of work, little sleep
<theCore> did they talks about the docs?
<LaserJock> a blast
<LaserJock> no
<LaserJock> not really
<theCore> so it was coding intensive?
<LaserJock> yep
<theCore> that's sweet
<LaserJock> jsgotangco and I were the only doc people and there weren't really any doc specs
<jsgotangco> mm??
<jsgotangco> oh yeah
<LaserJock> jsgotangco: are you talking care of that .pot for ESA?
<jsgotangco> hmm i haven't been on to it yet
<jsgotangco> if you have time to do it, i appreciate it
<LaserJock> I can't remember if you were doing it or if it was it
<LaserJock> bah, s/it/me/
<LaserJock> well, I think I have a .pot on my computer, I just wanted to make sure it was done right
<theCore> LaserJock: did you learned some french words?
<theCore> ;)
<LaserJock> theCore: not really
<theCore> :'(
<jsgotangco> c'est magnifique la tour eiffel!
<theCore> ha!
<LaserJock> heh, it was nice
<theCore> bien accord en plus. :)
<theCore> LaserJock: did they resolve the internals conficts about Xgl?
<jsgotangco> there really wasn't that much coding involved...thats reserved for the distro sprint
<theCore> I mean between developers 
<LaserJock> I didn't hear anything about Xgl
<theCore> Xgl is gone mainstream now, peoples will looks for it 
<LaserJock> bah, I was hoping we could take it out of the archives
<LaserJock> oh well
<theCore> hehe
<jsgotangco> it'll probably be in the archives but not installed by default
<theCore> that's ok, as long peoples can install it without to much trouble, the best would to the simplify that to `apt-get install xserver-xgl'
<theCore> anyway, it's going offtopic
<theCore> no more Xgl talk for me, more doc talk ;)
<LaserJock> well, I guess people should be able to do what they want, but I'm not going to deal with Xgl bugs
<LaserJock> I've already got a few
<theCore> LaserJock: did you restarted working actively on the Packaging Guide?
<LaserJock> not really
<LaserJock> I've got a bad cold
<LaserJock> and I'm trying to figure out how to divide up my Ubuntu time between all my projects
<Plug_> I'm happy to help out with the packaging guide.
<theCore> on my side, I try to find a way to procrastinate less
<theCore> it's not really a problem after all, I just love reading tech articles, but I wish I could do something useful with my time ...
<LaserJock> well, I'm going to just encourage people to send patches
<jsgotangco> did you get to talk to iwj about the developer resource thing?
<LaserJock> I didn't
<jsgotangco> doh
<jsgotangco> you chickened out?
<LaserJock> yep
<jsgotangco> doh
<LaserJock> tbh, he is a bit scary in person ;-)
<jsgotangco> huh?
* jsgotangco didnt find it that way
<jsgotangco> aggressive yes, but not scary
<LaserJock> well, he's pretty intense and incredibly good
<jsgotangco> he's passionate for sure
<LaserJock> yeah
<LaserJock> not scary in a bad way so much
<LaserJock> intense is a good word
<LaserJock> but I really didn't have much of a chance to ask him and I didn't push it
<jsgotangco> and you had time to play mao with him heh
<LaserJock> yeah, but I didn't feel like a point of order to ask him about it ;-)
<LaserJock> mostly, I haven't had a chance to look at it in depth so I didn't really know what I'd ask him about it
<LaserJock> the only thing I'm worried about it maintianing it as a patch to the Debian package
<jsgotangco> LaserJock: how big is the delta from iwj's draft to that of upstream if there is any?
<LaserJock> hmm, well so far he has done the intro
<LaserJock> and a diff of the plain text version is 27k
<LaserJock> I'm wondering if it would be better to fork rather than keep up a patch, especially since it will replace the Debian version
<jsgotangco> hmmmm
<jsgotangco> does make some sense though
<jsgotangco> while the diff isnt that big yet
<LaserJock> yeah, I'm just afraid the diff is going to get huge when I start getting into the meat of it
<jsgotangco> just a thought would it be more relevant to update the packaging guide early into edgy so that new people might want to refer to it?
<jsgotangco> just change the stuff from dapper to edgy for example
<LaserJock> yeah, although it really hasn't changed
<jsgotangco> yeah
<LaserJock> I tried to write it so it would be relevent during the edgy cycle
<LaserJock> but there will probably be some changes soon
<jsgotangco> is it possible to create a pbuilder for edgy now?
<crimsun> yes, both from within dapper and from within edgy
<crimsun> though I wouldn't update to edgy's sudo atm
<crimsun> it takes a bit more finagling from within dapper
<jsgotangco> ahhh
<crimsun> are you creating an edgy pbuilder within dapper?
<jsgotangco> well trying to at the moment
<jsgotangco> or should i just create a dapper one then update it?
<crimsun> the latter
<crimsun> this way:
<crimsun> http://pastebin.ca/74443
<crimsun> cp /usr/share/doc/pbuilder/examples/pbuilder-distribution.sh ~
<crimsun> then apply the diff
<crimsun> sorry, use http://pastebin.ca/74444
<crimsun> that's more correct semantically ;)
<jsgotangco> ok
* jsgotangco starts upgrading his pbuilder to edgy
<crimsun> err
<crimsun> did you use the diff I gave you?
<crimsun> http://pastebin.ca/74444, that is
<crimsun> if so, you already have an edgy pbuilder
<crimsun> presuming you named it pbuilder-edgy.sh, that is
<jsgotangco> doh! i forgot
* jsgotangco was looking into the packaging guide
<crimsun> well, it won't hurt either way :)
* nixternal hits the wiki - takin' care of CatCleanup - you have certain pages you want attacked now's the time to tell me!!!
* robotgeek joins nixternal 
<nixternal> where you attacking from?
<nixternal> i hitting all the little guys right now
<nixternal> the quick 5 minute ones...trying to knock down the fire a little bit
<robotgeek> nixternal: not sure, you just inspired me :)
<nixternal> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/AdvancedCommandlineHowto   <- useless
<robotgeek> i guess its better to link to bash scripting guide
<robotgeek> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/CommandlineHowto is also useless
<nixternal> they all are ;)
<nixternal> im doing americas army one now
<nixternal> im dl'n and installing too ;)
* robotgeek is getting rid of nomachinenx
<robotgeek> hmm, i cant delete pages?
<nixternal> ya..mdke hasn't added all of us..only certain ones i guess
<nixternal> i believe him and madpilot have the powah
<robotgeek> kk, cool. ill just make a list of pages to delete!
<nixternal> would be nice to make a CategoryRemove or CategoryDelete
<robotgeek> yup
<nixternal> hmm...in gnome...if you want to run an application...is it Gnome Menu > Run Application ??
<robotgeek> yes
<robotgeek> alt + f2 also works
<nixternal> ty
<nixternal> same with kde then
<nixternal> i didn't feel like starting up my vmware..but i might have to if i want to knock some of these out quickly
<robotgeek> i'm knocking the top20 first
<nixternal> americas army is done
<nixternal> i will start from #21 then
<nixternal> is there a standard for text editor?   i keep seing sudo gedit..but that won't work for kde and xfce...and doing a kedit, gedit, whateveredit...how about pick something like nano, vim or the like
<Plug_> $EDITOR ;)
<Plug_> there is an InstallingSoftware page
<Plug_> there could be a TextEditor page that is similar?
<Plug_> Edit file X (to learn how, see TextEditor)
<Plug_> perhaps they could be replaced with some little Javascript blocks
<nixternal> a newbie won't udnerstand $EDITOR
<Plug_> so you see "(Help for Ubuntu Kubuntu Xubuntu)" next to it
<nixternal> hmm..not a bad idea Plug_
<Plug_> and clicking each pops up a little "the text editor for Ubuntu is gedit, access XXX etc"
<Plug_> implemented as a template somewhere, that could be quite cool
<nixternal> like those stupid rollover links that popup advertisement on some pages...have one for the word editor or something like that
<nixternal> however..if the UWN asks for an editor of the human variety..it will place that link there...which becomes annoying
<nixternal> as a matter of fact..my idea was bad..because i just realised how much i hate those links ;)
<Plug_> Not quite what I had in mind...
<nixternal> hehe
<nixternal> how do you implament javascript into the wiki?
<Plug_> I'm not sure if you can
<mgalvin> mdke: yea, yea, i know, i was asked to send a test email but didn't realize that email address had already been whitelisted :-/, i got some amusing responses though :)
<jsgotangco> what happened?
<jsgotangco> test
<jsgotangco> haha
<robotgeek> can we create new pages on h.u.c ?
<nixternal> yes
<nixternal> if they belong in CategoryDocumentation though
<nixternal> if they aren't a CategoryDocumentation..i believe they go to w.u.c
<robotgeek> essentially DeletionCandidates
<nixternal> ahh..i would put it on the old wiki for now
<robotgeek> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeletionCandidates
<nixternal> that would work
<nixternal> that way there you can save yourself the trouble of having to add tags for w.u.c and h.u.c as you come across removal requests for both
<nixternal> on w.u.c if the page is at the h.u.c it will forward automaticall
<robotgeek> ah, forgot that. i was just copying the urls
<nixternal> hehe
<mgalvin> jsgotangco: i got dozens of emails back with a *wide* range of "success it worked" types of messages, i am still getting them, hehe
<mgalvin> thankfully no one seemed to mind
<robotgeek> what would be a good way to modify the switching from windows article to Kubuntu
<nixternal> robotgeek: that is a jjesse item...and it hasn't been confirmed nor denied yet
<robotgeek> i'll get started on it then, i'm sure he wont mind 
<robotgeek> actually, might wait for some more time. looks like amm i am doing i :%s/Ubuntu/Kubuntu
<nixternal> well...himself and mdke hasn't yet decided on the layout, the format, and the purpose yet
<nixternal> hehe ya
<nixternal> that is all going to get seperated eventually i think..as it might go from wiki to docbooks
<nixternal> actually..it is..docbooks and from there to h.u.c and lulu more then likely
<robotgeek> i'll help when it gets into xml, my vim is setup with keys to do it automagically. 
<robotgeek> f6 replaces ubuntu with Kubuntu and so on :)
<nixternal> nice
<robotgeek> alrite, time to hit the sack then. might tackle the wireless pages tommorow
<nixternal> ooh have fun on those
<Madpilot> nixternal, regarding CatDoc on h.u.c/c - I've been removing stuff from CatDoc, because *everything* on that wiki should be in CatDoc - it's no longer a useful category
<robotgeek> Madpilot: can you also process w.u.c/DeletionCandidates
<Madpilot> I'll have a look, sure
<nixternal> wo0t
<Plug_> can you search/replace the term out?
<Plug_> (CatDoc)
<nixternal> ahhh Madpilot..i see....so everything is catdoc..so no need for it
<nixternal> got it!!!
<Madpilot> nixternal, yeah - feel free to suggest more useful Categories for h.u.c/c - 
<Madpilot> I just got CategoryGames working again, btw
<nixternal> ahh
<nixternal> CategoryWifi
<nixternal> CategoryNixternal ;)
<nixternal> that is actually a great idea with the categories
<Madpilot> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/CategoryCategory <-- useful, despite the silly name :)
<Madpilot> CatWifi or CatWireless makes sense to me
<nixternal> CatNet
<nixternal> and so on...i like it
<nixternal> CategoryKubuntu | CategoryUbuntu | CategoryFreePopCorn
<nixternal> i brainfarted on the last one
<Madpilot> heh
<Madpilot> CatKubuntu & CatXubuntu make sense; CatUbuntu would basically be the default, so I"m not sure if it actually needs to exist...
* robotgeek is going to try and merge https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WifiDocs/Driver/bcm43xx ; https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WifiDocs/Device/AirportExtreme
<nixternal> #26 - BulgarianDocumentation/restricted formats dapper
<nixternal> wow
<nixternal> Madpilot: what was the spec on HowTo pages...was it a rename to remove the howto portion, leaving behind a redirect?
<nixternal> spec == policy
<Madpilot> nixternal, I think that's the consensus right now
<nixternal> ok
<nixternal> ty
<Madpilot> hi dsas & robitaille 
<robitaille> Good evening Madpilot 
<nixternal> hiya robitaille
<jsgotangco> sup
<dsas> Good morning Madpilot and all.
<nixternal> hiya dsas
<robitaille> And hello nixternal 
<jsgotangco> http://people.ubuntu.com/~mdz/photos/UDS-Paris/P6180023.JPG.html
<Madpilot> jsgotangco, cool pic
<nixternal> www.buntudot.org  <-- i updated all the links to photos today..including your jsgotangco
<jsgotangco> yeha heh
<jsgotangco> nixternal: you own that domain?
<nixternal> nope..imbrandon does
<jsgotangco> the group photo doesn't have LaserJock and highvoltage either
<Plug_> why buntu. and not ubuntu. ?
<robitaille> trademark issue maybe :)
<robitaille> I have to say that I generally really impressed by buntudot.org
<nixternal> i have no idea..i think because he was trying to hit all of the *buntu's w/ one name
<jsgotangco> heh nice wordplay though
<Plug_> {,x,k}ubuntu ;)
<dsas> nixternal: AutomaticSecurityUpdates has "breezy-security" inside the script text, so it needs genericsing somehow. 
<dsas> cat /etc/issue
<nixternal> ahhh
<nixternal> ok
<dsas> oops, wrong window :/
<robotgeek> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WifiDocs/Driver/bcm43xx is slightly better
<robotgeek> i'll fix both the documents, and see if i can merge anything from the AirportExtreme page into the Breezy page
<robotgeek> actually, done right now :)
<robotgeek> which leads me to a bigger problem, we need to make sure that /device redirects to driver and correctly
<robotgeek> anyways, more on that later! 
<Madpilot> dammit... is there any way to stop the old wiki from redirecting me? I'm trying to restore some stuff that was moved, and the &^%#@!@# redirects are driving me nuts...
<dsas> you can turn off meta-refreshes in some browsers some how.
<Madpilot> gah, yes - Opera has that feature... I'd just forgotten it. Thanks.
<dsas> The other way is to append ?action=edit to the end of the url when typing it in.
<Madpilot> right. Adding #show doesn't actually interupt the damn redirect, which it really should do
<jsgotangco> whatever i do, or follow, i still don't seem to get packaging correctly despite the ease of tools available
<rob> heh
<rob> the packing guide is ok, but its already out of date and a little inaccurate in places
<jsgotangco> yep
<rob> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/
<rob> start there :0
<rob> :)
<crimsun> those inaccuracies need to be addressed to Jordan
<rob> following it to the letter has gotten me smashed on revu
<nixternal> robotgeek: ping!
<crimsun> rob: "smashed"?
<nixternal> Madpilot: ping!
<Madpilot> pong?
<rob> http://revu.tauware.de/details.py?upid=2519
<nixternal> ahh..where did robotgeek put that delete stuff?
<Madpilot> which delete stuff?
* tonyyarusso 's eyes roll back and forth watching the match
<nixternal> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Checksum <- grabbed from wikipedia
<nixternal> that could be added to a CategoryDelete type of deal
<jsgotangco> ive seen worse revus than that
<nixternal> CategoryReview <- use this for us little guys that aren't 100% sure what to do with a page..if we don't know if it is safe to remove or not...that way there you head honcho types can review those..just an idea
<crimsun> rob: right, the guide isn't designed to be comprehensive, just an intro.
<rob> * compat: you should use a compatibility level of 5. <- pretty sure thats not in the guide
<crimsun> rob: however, I'm sure Jordan welcomes constructively critical input.
<jsgotangco> yeah
<crimsun> rob: because you don't /have/ to.
<rob> oh, I'm not having a go at the guide or Jordan
<crimsun> rob: you can use any dh_compat version you want provided you use the appropriate Standards-Version
<crimsun> rob: 5 just happens be "best practice" for that particular commenter
<rob> don't get me wrong, just pointing out the guide is only an intro, you need to also do a bit of reading of the wiki to get the full story
<jsgotangco> of course
<crimsun> rob: the full story lies in the Debian Policy manual.
<crimsun> /everything/ you need is in there :)
<rob> the guide is ok, just not totally accurate and a bit confusing to new-comers to debian/ubuntu packaging
<crimsun> Policy also tends to be far more strict than Ubuntu is
<rob> I'm sure it is
<jsgotangco> i coould have just tied up iwj in a room and pick his brains heh
<crimsun> keep in mind that we also tend to be more strict about /new/ packages entering Ubuntu than packages that are already in Debian
<crimsun> anyhow, input into the reworked PG is certainly welcome
<jsgotangco> it could certainly help to have some sections segue properly though
<crimsun> I believe Jordan has expressed interest in rewriting it completely.
<rob> as someone new to Ubuntu packaging just following the guide I just found myself wanting after reading the guide, it was an ok introduction but from the point of view of someone who just read though it recently it needs "something"
<crimsun> rob: that something, imo, is the Debian New Maintainer's Guide.
<rob> maybe, but there is a real lack of references to it
<crimsun> right, it's only mentioned in a cursory manner and in the Appendix.
<crimsun> the trick is to ease someone into packaging
<jsgotangco> im not sure the hello.tgz sample is a good idea to use as well
<rob> yeah, I understand its a fine line to tread :)
<crimsun> jsgotangco: I think it's satisfactory to a novice packager.
<crimsun> it's a pretty big leap to go from that to mplayer, though
<jsgotangco> took me a while to figure out joe from source
<crimsun> well, that's one of the problems that will become even more evident as the PG is revised/rewritten
<crimsun> to be a packager, one has to have a decent grasp of the source code involved
<jsgotangco> yeah
<crimsun> how does one draft a guide in a technical manner without alienating people who haven't either much source code or packaging experience?
<crimsun> (rhetorical question, there, but one that's apropos)
<jsgotangco> i guess it should start with more caveats than just saying CLI experience =)
<crimsun> ultimately it would be very cool to have a gui that guides one through it
<crimsun> in the meantime, now is an /excellent/ time to get involved in packaging
<crimsun> (the merge cycle at the beginning of each dev cycle)
<crimsun> usually now is when all the interesting questions appear
<tonyyarusso> I've been meaning to learn how to do that - don't know why, just seems like it would be a good skill.
<jsgotangco> yes it is
<mdke> Madpilot: add ?action=show to the page name
<mdke> s/page name/url
<Madpilot> mdke, ah, thanks - couldn't remember the syntax
<mdke> oh no, actually I seem to remember that not working either
<mdke> or was it DeletePage that doesn't work...
<Plug_> nixternal: the software installation prog is 'synaptic', not 'synaptics' 
<Plug_> (you should also probably link InstallingSoftware instead)
<nixternal> oh no..i added an "s" again
<nixternal> arg
<nixternal> i am bad with that...since i use apt-get
* nixternal removes his s key
<mdke> ynaptic
<Plug_> don't mention either, and just say "for info see InstallingSoftware" :)
<nixternal> synaptic == apt front end...synaptics == laptop mousey
<Plug_> I am tidying up lots of things that say "install X" and then all either go on about how to do install using one of three tools, or link to InstallingSoftware
<nixternal> see..i know the "INstallingSoftware" keeps the wording down, therefore making the page smaller...however, i find it annoying to have to switch back and forth between pages to get one task done...just my 2 cents though
<Plug_> it would be good to have a question-mark-icon to link, or some such
<Plug_> that implies "If you dont know how to do this, click this page"
<nixternal> i like that idea now
<Plug_> without having to implicitly mention InstallingSoftware, Repositories etc
<nixternal> speaking of icons...i need to use some
<Plug_> tbh, I think that pages about installing hula and cando etc should assume knowledge of editing sources.list, more so than "how to get MP3 playback"
<nixternal> Plug_: i have to agree with you 100% actually, even though i am not sold on the idea all the way..but it is uniform..and it looks good among the pages...
<nixternal> now..can you make a link open in a new tab/window in the wiki...like with <a href="fjdaf" target="_blank">
<nixternal> so that way, sending a user away from the page, doesn't totally sling them out of the page...but opens a reference in a new window?
<nixternal> true
<nixternal> as some new user won't be doing either
<mdke> nixternal: you shouldn't need to switch back and forward, you only need to learn how to install packages once... eventually you get the hang of it
<nixternal> but then again, you never know
<mdke> and no, we don't open links in new windows
<nixternal> mdke, that works for many, but not all ;)
<mdke> well, that is why the page is there
<mdke> you can click on the link if you need to, and otherwise, ignore it
<nixternal> how about in the introduction to the page...let the reader know, hey this is an easy task or this is a hard task, if you don't know how to install software read this, if you don't know how to add sources do this...and so on
<mdke> we could do that
<nixternal> like the top heading...  == Introduction == or == Information ==  and under that briefly explain the software or tutorial, and anything the reader might need to know prior to proceding with the tutorial/article
<nixternal> that way they don't get half way through and have to jump out of the page to read something else
<Madpilot> nixternal, a lot of the tuts & docs we've got are already set up like that - the trouble with RestrictedFormats is that it's such a long page :|
<Plug_> nixternal: you end up offering the disclaimer on every page
<mdke> it will take a lot of effort to implement that on every page
<nixternal> so i have seen ;)...im saying for the CategoryCleanup ones really...and then...
<Plug_> it would take 'quick links' in the header, or on every page, to say 'Need to install software?  click here' etc
<nixternal> mdke: im talking just catcleanups right now
<Plug_> which probably isn't that useful
<nixternal> Plug_: the quicklinks...is that an idea that you like or dislike?
<Plug_> I think that for tricky subjects, you dont need to tell people how to do things.  Assume they can find out themselves if they dont know.  I assume if you want to install Hula on Ubuntu you're probably handy enough with a command line, or at least know where to look.
<Plug_> The game is totally different in 'user facing' pages, rather than 'sysadmin facing' pages
<mdke> we should be really conservative about that sort of assumption though
<nixternal> very true...but it is the "assumption" part that worries me
<nixternal> exactly
<Plug_> almost every page suggests installing a package
<Plug_> and every other page says to do so from universe or multiverse
<mdke> I don't think a link to InstallingSoftware is overly offputting, to be honest
* mdke goes to work
* Plug_ goes to dinner
<Plug_> mdke: what about InstallingSoftware and Repositories?
<mdke> no, still not
<Plug_> you could have a consistent ["Repositories" Enable Universe and Multiverse]  link
<Madpilot> night all
<nixternal> g'nite all
<mdke> Plug_: actually, both aren't necessary, the latter should be part of the former
<mdke> yeah, a consistent link is a good idea. We use "Add, Remove and Update Applications" for the distro docs, iirc.
<jenda> Who updates https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ ?
<jsgotangco> robitaille
<jenda> OK
<sivang> hi folks
<sivang> where can I discuss translator team admin issues? :)
<jenda> what issues?
<jenda> If it's a misbehaving admin, it might be a CC issue.
<sivang> no, I'm the admin :-)
<jenda> good ;)
<jenda> are you misbehaving?
<rjls> heh
<sivang> jenda: oh no :_)
<jsgotangco> lol
<sivang> anyways, I have this person who wants to join the translator team. This team being basically the moderators team for the language, I take extra care before I approve someone
<sivang> so otherwise they need to contribute some on the Israeli wiki, 
<jsgotangco> yeah
<sivang> or show me some translations suggestions they have done
<sivang> but this guy just sent me some links about coding projects he has done, no apparent translation works.
<sivang> He seems nice, though, and we are in need of some more active moderators for the suggestions we receive. Question is, should I approve him based on that, or ask him to work some on the wiki/rosetta before I do so?
<jsgotangco> well its your call really
<sivang> (I'm concenred he might get turned off by that, and I will loose a propspective moderator)
<sivang> what have other loco team leads done in similar situations?
<sivang> do we have a guideline doc for that?
<jsgotangco> well
<jsgotangco> i admin one language team in LP
<jsgotangco> its pretty hard to get volunteers for such
<mdke> sivang: we don't have a guideline, but I wrote some suggestions about how to do that on my blog, and I think a lot of translation teams have gone down similar lines.
<mdke> http://www.mdke.org/blog/Ubuntu_Translation___Quality_Assurance.html
<mdke> that's what the italian team does anyhow
<mdke> sivang: #ubuntu-translators or #ubuntu-locoteams is a better place to discuss it though, or either of the mailing lists for those
<sivang> mdke: thanks
<WaterSevenUb> Hello...I've been away for a while... What's up with the localized help.ubuntu.com/index.cc.html?
<mdke> WaterSevenUb: it is now index.html.cc
<mdke> (it should automatically appear in your browser though when you go to help.ubuntu.com)
<WaterSevenUb> mdke, :) ok.thx.
<WaterSevenUb> mdke, based on IP? based on firefox?
<mdke> based on browser language
<WaterSevenUb> mdke, yeah...ok... pt does not work then ;)
<mdke> right, thanks
<WaterSevenUb> (fortunately, firefox and OO will probably be portuguese ready in upstream for edgy... )
<WaterSevenUb> (it works if you define portuguese manually i guess)
<mdke> WaterSevenUb: when does it work and when doesn't it work?
<WaterSevenUb> mdke, After normal installation in Portuguese, as firefox does not have native PT support, it will not point to the portuguese documentation. However, if you manually go to the preferences in firefox and select "Portuguese" as prefered language, it will load correctly.
<WaterSevenUb> so, no problem for you :)
<mdke> WaterSevenUb: oh good, so it works
<WaterSevenUb> btw, a translator is asking me if there will be xubuntu-docs new package with new translations....
<mdke> hope so
<jjesse> phillbull are you there?
<jjesse> mdke: the two files adeptupdater adn addremoveprograms should validate could you edit the make file so ic ould build them :)
<jjesse> hmmm looks like its time to rewrite the kubuntu release notes to solve bug #48525
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 48525 in kubuntu-docs "Problems with Dapper Release Notes for Kubuntu" [Medium,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/48525
<mdke> jjesse: yes ok
<jjesse> mdke: thanks something i still need to learn how to do :)
<jsgotangco> doesnt adept have a bzr branch yet so that the manual can be added on development upstream
<jsgotangco> that's what we did with g-a-i and u-m
<jsgotangco> mdke: i'll delete the g-a-i and u-m on trunk now
<jjesse> jsgotangco: not that i'm aware of
<mdke> jsgotangco: ah, nice
<mdke> I would have thought we can delete repos/vendor too
<jsgotangco> yeah we're not doing any vendor drops anyways
<mdke> jjesse: I'm going to put each document in a separate directory, if that is ok
<mdke> jjesse: you may have to adjust the links to the images after I do that
<mdke> oh no, actually maybe that isn't necessary
<mdke> meh
<mdke> perhaps it is
<jsgotangco> goodnight
<jjesse> mgalvin: ping?
<nixternal> i like the whole "marco, polo" thing better then teh "ping, pong" stuff ;)
<LaserJock> hehe
<nixternal> marco
<jjesse> i guess i didn't realize how "short" this release was until i took a look at the erelease schedule
<LaserJock> yeah
<LaserJock> it is very short
<jjesse> doc free is sept. 14th
<nixternal> ya jjesse...there isn't much time on this one
<nixternal> we are only 4 months from release
<nixternal> no 6mo cycle this time around
<jjesse> just means we got get cranking on the documents
<LaserJock> well, luckily we got a lot done in Dapper
<LaserJock> if we make sure our existing docs are in good order, then anything else will more or less be icing on the cake, IMO
<jjesse> we should have screen shots :)
<jjesse> mgalvin: anyways was just wondering if you were going to be doing the Knot Wiki pages like you did for Dapper Flights?
<nixternal> meeting time for the doc team by the way this sounds ;)
<nixternal> i got to learn all this stuff, as i want to help contribute as much as possible
<Karderio> mdke :  re :)
<Karderio> I noticed there were still a few documentation pages on the wiki, I transferred a bunch yesterday, I got fed up with that so I've started to write a script to transfer them automatically. Could this be useful ? 
<mdke> Karderio: not really... it would require physical access to the machine probably
<Karderio> well the script is almost functional already...
<Karderio> it just pretends to be firefox ;)
<mdke> are there lots of pages?
<Karderio> well I did maybe 5/6 yesterday, I have noticed at least five others... it looked like a nest of them
<mdke> just tag em with CategoryDocumentation and we can try and inspire some wiki contributors to help move them
<Karderio> they would do this by hand ?
<nixternal> mark um and i shall fix um ;)
<mdke> hmm
<Karderio> okay, if you like, but it would only take 5 minutes to finish the script - this would automate this. perhaps you know somthing I don't ;) hidden server magic ;)
<mdke> have you tested it?
<Karderio> i've tested the bit that gets the page - the bit that creates new page and replaces old one with redirect - the bit that logs you in... now the just have to play nicely together
<Karderio> :)$
<Karderio> should https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HardwareSupport live in the communitydocs ?
<mdke> no, we decided not
<mdke> erm
<mdke> who deleted AddingRepositoriesHowto
<mdke> disgraceful
<jjesse> inot me
<mdke> oh, no one. It missed out in the move because it was a redirect
<mdke> damn, there are going to be quite a few of those
<jjesse> bumer
<mdke> oh well!
<mdke> jjesse: see my message earlier about moving those documents into separate directories?
<jjesse> mdke: i think i missed it but i can take care ofi t
<jjesse> makes better sense?
<mdke> yes, it helps for building
<jjesse> i'll get it done then
<mdke> I'd suggest adept/ as the base directory, then have adept/addremoveprograms/C/ etc
<mdke> and adept/figures/C
<mdke> you may have to fix some links for the images
<jjesse> yeah i will
<jjesse> right now trying to figure out why kubuntu/releasenotes/C/releasenotes.xml won't validate
<mdke> I'll fix that for you at some stage if you like
<jjesse> i'd like to figure it out
<mdke> I've got quite good at that from fixing endless translations
<mdke> alright
<jjesse> but i'll ask if i can't, i have to re-write some it cause they didn't likethe style
<mdke> sure, no probs
<mgalvin> jjesse: so they are going to be called Knot's... yes i would like to do them
<jjesse> mgalvin: ok, then i'm going to really aim to get knot1/kubuntu done etc this time around
<mgalvin> sweet
<mdke> jjesse: btw on the list you mentioned some discussion about the Switching guides, is that off-list?
<jjesse> mdke: yeah currently 3 of us are trying to get tother via irc and then present something to the list
<Karderio> Perhaps it wold help consistency to move the list of supported wifi cards to the wiki, from help.ubuntu.com ? (https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WifiDocs/WirelessCardsSupported)
<Karderio> I have marked a few pages on the wiki with CategoryDocumentation. (Installation/FromUSBStick, OnNFSDrive, WindowsDualBootHowTo, Installation/FromHardDriveWithFloppies) Hope it makes sense to move these.
<Karderio> more to come when I get a chance
<mdke> Karderio: cool
<chris-t4> Question. Would it be a good idea to give some people instructions on how to install Ubuntu with Parallels and VMWare on thier machines? I find this much better than dual booting. I think most people don't know this option exists.
<mdke> chris-t4: yes, doesn't that exist already?
<chris-t4> I have not seen it if it does, other than on Parallel's and VMWare's website.
<LaserJock> at least for VMWare there is
<mdke> chris-t4: have a look at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Installation
<chris-t4> Thanks, I had not seen that.
<Karderio_> mdke : I was thinking about "fluffing up" the start here section on the main community documentation page, like I did to the intro...
#ubuntu-doc 2006-06-30
<nixternal> 799 CategoryDocumentation pages left...i just wiped out about 30 of them i think
<nixternal> dropped it below 800 ;)
<nixternal> Plug_: thanks for that link about the Search and Replace..im looking into that now
<nixternal> it seems as if that search and replace is just for each page...it doesn't look like it would do multiple pages at once
<nixternal> what would be nice..is have check boxes that display the category..and you can do a general search/sort and then just uncheck the box for CatDocs
<nixternal> if that makes sense
<jsgotangco> hey
<nixternal> hey jsgotangco
<nixternal> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/iPodVideo
<nixternal> ^^can this be removed as it only serves as a link and shout out page it seems
<nixternal> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/APTPage
<nixternal> ^^can this be deleted?
<nixternal> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/forum/software/OpenSource/MakeMoneyHowto
<nixternal> ^^that just has to go ;)
<LaserJock> heh
<cosmolax> hi
<nixternal> hi cosmolax
<cosmolax> dose anyone of UbuntuWeeklyNews here ?
<cosmolax> I'm come from Taiwan
<cosmolax> Next Week our community will have a Installfest in 7/4 2006
<nixternal> you want to get the info on the UWN?
<cosmolax> btw, I've translated the UWN issue #4 to ChineseTradictional
<cosmolax> any have put it on the Ubuntu wiki :)
<nixternal> good deal..much appreciated
<Plug_> nixternal: another little niggle, Universe and Multiverse probably shouldn't go in {{ }}
<cosmolax> nixternal: I just want someone on UWN know that our community will translate UWN by our docteam members :)
<nixternal> i like that better then them being bolded...but then again, they probably don't need any  formatting
<nixternal> they stand out that way..plus there is nothing that says otherwise on editing it that way
<Plug_> generally, <tt> font is for things that need to be typed in
<cosmolax> mgalvin: hi
<nixternal> usually the stuff that gets typed in gets put into a code box
<mgalvin> cosmolax: hi
<cosmolax> mgalvin: sorry I delay the UWN chinese version for few weeks.
<mgalvin> no prob, better late than never :)
<cosmolax> mgalvin: in these weeks, our community were busy on Installfest
<mgalvin> cool
<nixternal> usually the {{{dafs}}} and the ~-fdjas-~ is used to emphasize something w/o using bold or italics all the time
<cosmolax> mgalvin: that would be the 1st real Ubuntu Installfest in Taiwan. :)
<Plug_> does Ubuntu respect boot.local?
<Plug_> I thought it did rc.local since Dapper
<Plug_> (per https://help.ubuntu.com/community/i915Driver, "Startup Script")
<mgalvin> cosmolax: sweet, you should write up a short piece on it to but in the UWN
<mgalvin> s/but/put/
<nixternal> doesn't matter what you name a file in /etc/init.d/ as it is going to get executed none the less if im correct
<cosmolax> mgalvin: can I ?
<Plug_> so you would need an update-rc.d line to also activate it
<cosmolax> mgalvin: on the issue #5 ?
<nixternal> that is true...
<nixternal> i think
<mgalvin> sure, write up what you guys did and such and, yea just add it to #5 somewhere in the general community news section
<cosmolax> mgalvin: thanks ! :) that would be great !
<cosmolax> mgalvin: I moust discuss this good new with our members. :)
<mgalvin> cool, go for it
<nixternal> there has got to be a "Template" for CategoryDocumentation...as the styling guide and what others say is different.
<cosmolax> mgalvin: maybe 3 hours later we can proviede you a piece of session.
<nixternal> you really can't apply Documentation Style 100% to the wiki
<mgalvin> sounds good, as long it is ready within the next 24 hours it will get into UWN #5
<Plug_> nixternal: fixed up
<nixternal> thx
<nixternal> hey Plug_..i think maybe we should work on some sort of template to apply towards CatCleanup type stuff...actually..not really a template..but an updated "Styling Guide" so we can all get on one page
* nixternal heads for some ice cream
<cosmolax> mgalvin: hi, I want ask one question. With the Installfest, we also made a Installfest-T-Shirt. And we put ubuntu logo on the T-shirt with tux + gnu, is that OK ? That would be a community T-shirt.
<cosmolax> mgalvin: here is our Installfest Blog: http://installfesttw.blogspot.com/
<jsgotangco> i dont see a problem as long as the logos are distinct and not combined with each other
<mgalvin> cosmolax: cool, just add a link to it
<jsgotangco> im sure the other logos have their own branding rules
<jsgotangco> mm taiwan
* jsgotangco wants to jump on a plane now and go to taiwan
<cosmolax> jsgotangco: welcome! :)
<cosmolax> mgalvin: we also have a plan with the Edgy release. Maybe next Installfest we will have a Ubuntu girl to help us spreading our actions. :)
<cosmolax> mgalvin: all man like cute and young girl. :)
<jsgotangco> i bet
<robitaille> cosmolax:  the web site has a bit of details about the use of the ubuntu logo: http://www.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/TrademarkPolicy
<cosmolax> robitaille: thanks! :) that would be helpful.
<cosmolax> so I must contact trademarks@ubuntu.com first ?
<jsgotangco> cosmolax: im sure you don't have to do that unless you made some pretty radical changes to the logo or will be using it to a product that would be redistributed
<robitaille> jsgotangco:  yes my thought exactly.  
<jsgotangco> as long as the ubuntu logo is unadulterated and retains its look you should be fine
<jsgotangco> ie., you can just add the ubuntu logo to a new hardware product and say its compatible
<jsgotangco> s/can/can't
<cosmolax> jsgotangco: thanks. :) now our community T-shirt is safe ?
<jsgotangco> cosmolax: judging from the shirt you shown in the blog, i think its ok
<jsgotangco> cosmolax: i cannot say about the other brands though (debian, gnu) as they may have different policies regarding their branding and images
<cosmolax> jsgotangco: wow, now I can release the stone in my hesrt. :)
<jsgotangco> so its possible you have no issue with ubuntu but you may have a problem with GNU thats why you have to check the others too
<cosmolax> jsgotangco: ok, I'll contact our member to do this asap. :)
* cosmolax thanks all sweet guys. You help me so much. :)
<jsgotangco> how organized are free software groups in taiwan?
<jsgotangco> im just a few hours away from it by plane, should be a nice place to stop by in the future
<cosmolax> jsgotangco: there are many free software groups in taiwan.
<jsgotangco> i guessed correctly
<cosmolax> jsgotangco: many people cross-participate in not only one User Group.
<cosmolax> jsgotangco: because our community is samll.
<jsgotangco> i could imagine
<cosmolax> jsgotangco: with cobiding the power of many ugs, then we can do this Installfest.
<cosmolax> jsgotangco: but many young students have interest on OSS. they would be the future.
<cosmolax> jsgotangco: In fact,many member of our community are studnets. :)
<cosmolax> It just a problem about time to fix the bug #1 .:)
<Ubug2> Malone bug 1 in Ubuntu Dapper "Microsoft has a majority market share" [Critical,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/1
<cosmolax> one of my friend thinks the edubuntu would be a great effert in Taiwan.Althought in Taipei there are many schools use MS solutions.But at other places are no many money to efford of it.
<jsgotangco> really now
* jsgotangco is really interested in asian interest in edubuntu if there are any in the region
<cosmolax> jsgotangco: that would be a long way to go in Taiwan.
<jsgotangco> cosmolax: what do you think we lack?
<cosmolax> jsgotangco: but also a way worth of keep going. :)
<cosmolax> jsgotangco: we still need much more users to join us.
<jsgotangco> cosmolax: how about awareness drives to schools and school officials? or is the software used in schools government-mandated?
<cosmolax> jsgotangco: and in Taiwan many people are not good at english, so our doc-team will help on transalting the "file a bug" from our local group.
<jsgotangco> cosmolax: i understand that, most east asian countries have communications barriers no matter how advanced technology is
<jsgotangco> although i do not see it as an impediment, it more of coordination i guess
<cosmolax> jsgotangco: in some goverment office, they have dual-boot PC. with MS Windows & Lipus Linux.
<cosmolax> jsgotangco: but our community think lipus linux is suck.
* jsgotangco googles
<Plug_> nixternal: sure, I'd be happy to help with that
<jsgotangco> not much results but i guess its not that good
<cosmolax> jsgotangco: unlees there is a company can support Ubuntu, or our goverment office won't accept Ubuntu as a solution.
<jsgotangco> interesting...
<cosmolax> jsgotangco: Linpus Linux isn't a good choice, but it's a company and have some l10n effect.
<cosmolax> jsgotangco: if taiwan have some company can officailly support Ubuntu, that would be a chance to make Ubuntu get in goverment office. :)
<jsgotangco> i hear that
<cosmolax> jsgotangco: but at this moment, It sould be good to srpead ubuntu & edubuntu at those schools lack of money.
<jsgotangco> would a cd that defaults to tw-locale help?
<cosmolax> jsgotangco: that would be a good solution.
<jsgotangco> (but i assume majority of the population can understand english perfectly well, not just able to express it properly?)
<cosmolax> jsgotangco: but our effects on launchpad.net still not good enough. :(
<jsgotangco> zh doesn't bode well to tw right? (im probably stepping on somthing political here)
<cosmolax> zh-cn and zh-tw Ubuntu team are cowork well.
<jsgotangco> so a zh-cn locale should work with no problem for tw?
<cosmolax> but those effects of l10n still have difficult of sharing.
* jsgotangco checks how complete zh-cn is
<cosmolax> jsgotangco: some of my friends use zh-cn locale and got no problem.
<jsgotangco> what would be the differences between locales?
<cosmolax> jsgotangco: but use zh-tw locale just got some mistakes and need be fixed.:(
<jsgotangco> not much?
<cosmolax> jsgotangco: it'a easy to fix them.just some things of Input method.
<jsgotangco> yes i guess it boils down to input as well
<cosmolax> zh-cn & zh-tw althought known as Chinese language.
<cosmolax> but after long term of self-development in culture and eco
<cosmolax>  of sharing.
<cosmolax> 14:28  * jsgotangco checks how complete zh-cn is
<cosmolax> economy
* cosmolax sorry.
<jsgotangco> problem is both have ISO codes that makes them distinct from each other although culturally and historically it is very much the same language
<jsgotangco> differences may be colloquial and regional in origin
<cosmolax> there are many term different on express.
<cosmolax> for example the (_File) is (_F) in zh-tw, but it is (_F) in zh-cn.
<cosmolax> all people can accept (_F) in Taiwan & HongKong, but can get used to (_F).
<cosmolax> they would be confused on those terms in zh-cn.
<jsgotangco> i see it can be a problem then
<cosmolax> jsgotangco: but that wouldn't be correct, just like english also have differents between en-us and en-gb.
<cosmolax> jsgotangco: and people would happy to see those terms belong to them, not belong to other side.
<jsgotangco> yeah that's totally understandable
<jsgotangco> hmmm
<jsgotangco> does the government have a sponsored project with regards to translation upstream? (not just ubuntu)
<cosmolax> jsgotangco: well...
<cosmolax> jsgotangco: we have a zh-l10n team.
<cosmolax> jsgotangco: it is a common l10n team of many upstream.
<jsgotangco> ahh
<jsgotangco> so its a pretty small group
<cosmolax> jsgotangco: include kde , gnome ,gnu's l10n
<jsgotangco> yeah the big 3 should suffice
<cosmolax> jsgotangco: and many people just join the l10n-work by personal account.
<jsgotangco> as most volunteer translation projects are
<cosmolax> jsgotangco: not so officaily driven by goverment. :(
<BlueT_> cosmolax: here i am :p
<cosmolax> jsgotangco: BlueT_  is our community leader. :)
<jsgotangco> cosmolax: yeah over here we have a government-driven distribution but not translated to the national language so its a bit weird too
<jsgotangco> hi =)
<cosmolax> caleb-: :)
<cosmolax> jsgotangco: BlueT_  also is a Ubuntu Member.
<BlueT_> hi jsgotangco :)
<mdke> what's the issue?
* mdke sees a lot of scrollback and can't read it all
<jsgotangco> mdke: we're just talking about l10n that's all =)
<jsgotangco> nothing technical we can do about it for now
<mdke> ah, not docs related?
<jsgotangco> it is docs related but you know how think the lines between doc and translation so...
<jsgotangco> s/think/thin
<BlueT_> y0 mdke :)
<mdke> hello
* cosmolax making the news.
<Madpilot> cool, the UWN blurb I wrote on gLabels is going into UWN#5
<cosmolax> ok, I finished the news of Ubuntu Taiwan Installfest.
<cosmolax> Which one I should contact ?
<cosmolax> Or I just mail to the mail-list?
<mdke> cosmolax: mailing list is fine
<cosmolax> mdke: thanks! :)
<cosmolax> mdke: we are now peerviewing the draft. When it's ok, it would be put on mail-list asap. :)
<mdke> fine
<dsas> I think I remember reading that you need certain privileges to delete pages on h.u.c, how do I get those privileges?
<DanielC> Would it be a good idea to integrate a free user guide for OpenOffice.org into Ubuntu?
<DanielC> The team at http://oooauthors.org has written one.
<DanielC> Disclaimer: I founded the OOoAuthors project.
<DanielC> These user guides are very high quality, and I'd like to see them distributed more. I'm happy to learn how to make the packages and submit them to the MOTUs. I just want to know how the Documentation Team feels about this idea.
<dsas> DanielC: Certainly get it packaged at the very least. People are currently brainstorming how the next version of the documentation centre will look, long term it seems to be thought by some that integrating more with upstream (GNOME) docs would be better, I'd guess the same may go to Open Office too.
<dsas> DanielC: (I'm not a docteam member btw)
<dsas> hello matthewrevell
<matthewrevell> hi
<DanielC> Ok, thanks.
<matthewrevell> :)
<dsas> matthewrevell: Enjoying guadec?
<matthewrevell> dsas: I would be if I was there. I couldn't it :(
<dsas> matthewrevell: Ah, bummer.  I thought lugradio was broadcasting from there?
<dsas> matthewrevell: Oh, just looked at the site.
<matthewrevell> The other three are.
<matthewrevell> LugRadio Live soon, I'll enjoy that instead :)
<dsas> matthewrevell: it sounds like it'll be fun
<matthewrevell> dsas: Not able to make it?
<dsas> matthewrevell: Maybe I'll be able to get down for a day or so. It depends on whether or not I find some summer work before then.
<dsas> matthewrevell: GUADEC is at birmingham next year, should be a little easier to make it :)
<matthewrevell> dsas: Birmingham or Lille, isn't it?
<dsas> matthewrevell: Birmingham was announced as the winner yesterday
<matthewrevell> Really?!
<matthewrevell> How did I miss that? Cool!
<dsas> matthewrevell: According to the gnome-uk list.
<dsas> It was a mail from Tom Wood - who put together the bid
<matthewrevell> Nice one.
<Karderio> I can't delete a page I just created in the wiki !
<Karderio> I've been doing a few test that left artefact pages hanging around, sorry. I have added them to the list of pages for deletion.
<Karderio> SO, I now have a script that will replace one string of text on the wiki with another
<Karderio> It works fine to do a straight replacement of "CategoryDocumentation" with ""
<Karderio> It operates on a list of files, we can get the pages in "CategoryDocumentation" from https://help.ubuntu.com/community/CategoryDocumentation
<Karderio> there is one border case with this : when you have a page that is in "CategoryDocumentation", and only that category, ant above the category list is a separator (----), it will leave the seperator with nothing underneath...
<Karderio> don't know if this matters, I suppose we could also have it remove the seperator, but it is more work, so if it doesn't matter... ;)
<Karderio> what does anybody think ?
<jjesse> did the release notes get moved to help.ubuntu.com or they still @ doc.ubuntu.com?
<mdke> the ubuntu ones are on the website
<jjesse> found the kubuntu ones on doc.kubuntu.com
<jjesse> slow day at work today so i'm going to redo them :)
<jsgotangco> wooo hooo
* jsgotangco loves those slow days at work
<jsgotangco> like today, i did nothing but practice merging heh
<jjesse> grin the day before a holiday weekend
<jjesse> mdke: did you want the figures for addremove programs and adept updater to be in adept/figures or how did you sugest it?
<mdke> jjesse: yes, I'd say either adept/figures/C or kubuntu/images/C
<jjesse> i'll put them in adept/figures/C
<jjesse> hmm hopefully i did that right
<mdke> jjesse: are you finished with that?
<jjesse> mdke: i think so, i need to finish all the references to the images before they will build succesfuly 
<mdke> jjesse: great, thanks for doing that
<jjesse> mdke; no prlbem
<jjesse> hopefully i can get it done before the plumber calls and i have to head home
<jjesse> getting a commit error MKCOL of '/repos!svn/wrk/715f4c20-72117-0410-b517-f7ff5652b4ff/trunk/kubuntu/adeptguide/figures/C
<jsgotangco> upstream docs removed from trunk
<jjesse> 405 method not allowed http://docteam.buntu.com
<mdke> never seen that before
<nixternal> moins
<LaserJock> morning nixternal 
<cosmolax> nixternal: hi
<cosmolax> mgalvin: hi
<nixternal> hello
<cosmolax> as fews hours ago I said. I sent the infos of our community's Instalfest on the ubuntu-doc mail-list
<cosmolax> I sent to utuntu-doc@list.ubuntu.com
<cosmolax> Is that right ?
<nixternal> you got it right cosmolax..i just read the email you sent...July 4th Install Fest!!!  great job
<jsgotangco> goodnight
<nixternal> nite jsgotangco
<jjesse> hmmm now to do more clean up to the adept guides :(
<nixternal> hehe have fun ;)
<nixternal> im going to do a little more wiki work today i think
<jjesse> yeah if you noticed the commit logs i've been changing a lot
<nixternal> try to knock down the catdocs and catcleanup
* nixternal noticed that too
<nixternal> everytime you commit i get the email
<nixternal> then i svn update
<jjesse> and they are pretty heafty commits :)
<nixternal> from what i have seen, ya, none of your commits have been really small...i noticed a lot of changes, and couple of new ones
<nixternal> jjesse: all your svn work, do you do it via cli or do you use one of the gui front-ends?
<nixternal> i have messed with the ksvn, but i don't like it...cli is just smoother to me
<nixternal> ;(
<nixternal> hehe
<LaserJock> all that talk of svn scared him away
<nixternal> must have
<tonyyarusso> I have an interesting situation...
<tonyyarusso> I ordered some documentation books from Lulu, and they arrived today.
<tonyyarusso> The Xubuntu Desktop Guide has the covers put on backwards.  (So when you open the front cover you see the last page, upside down.)
<tonyyarusso> What should I do?
<mdke> of all of them?
<jsgotangco> you should ask for a replacement it is obviously defective...but i dunno the policy of lulu on that
<tonyyarusso> It's just the Xubuntu one (I got one copy of 4 different things).
* mdke is checking to make sure it isn't our fault
<mdke> tonyyarusso: english version?
<tonyyarusso> mdke: Yes.
<mdke> tonyyarusso: ok, fairly confident there is nothing wrong our end - you should ask for another one from Lulu
<tonyyarusso> mdke: Okay, I'll check the site to see what it says about that.  Thanks.
<tonyyarusso> Meanwhile, the actual pages between the covers and the other 3 look great.  Nice work guys.
<mdke> good news :)
<LaserJock> tonyyarusso: which other ones did you get?
<tonyyarusso> LaserJock: Ubuntu and Kubuntu Desktop Guides, and the Server Desktop Guide.  (Figured I'd pay shipping once)
<LaserJock> cool
<LaserJock> I need to get some too, so I can see what the finished product looks like
<tonyyarusso> Fairly simple, 1/4" thick, medium format.  Nice and big type size, which is less intimidating for new people I would think.
<LaserJock> yeah, doesn't have a technical book look
<froud_> Is there an equivalent of KDE System Guard on Ubuntu GNOME Desktop?
<LaserJock> seems  like there is, try over in #ubuntu
<froud_> LaserJock: I tried that but no response
<LaserJock> hmm
<froud_> LaserJock: what is the alternative?
<LaserJock> froud: hmm, I don't have gnome in front of me right now so I can't help much
<froud> LaserJock: I looked for something on the default install of Dapper and found nothing
<LaserJock> what are you wanting to do?
<froud> LaserJock: This assumes that programs never freeze :-) As we know they do, it seems like there needs to be such a tool for GUI users. It should be available via the menu system as part of the default installation
<froud> LaserJock: I am writing training materials for DEsktop Users
<LaserJock> ah, so you need something to kill processes?
<froud> One topic is about how to handle frozen programs :-)
<froud> LaserJock: yes, but not at the command line
<froud> we all know kill
<trappist> does ctrl-alt-escape work in gnome the way it works in kde (xkill)?
* froud goes to see
<LaserJock> I guess Gnome apps never freeze ;p
<trappist> <3 xkill
<froud> trappist: no
<LaserJock> froud: it's System Monitor
<froud> LaserJock: uhmm
* trappist adds to the list of reasons to stick with kde
* froud is not going there trappist 
<LaserJock> System -> Administration -> System Monitor is what you are looking for
<froud> LaserJock: System Monitor assumes that the user has root
<LaserJock> yes
<froud> Normally users dont have the Administration menu
<LaserJock> do you have a user that doesn't have admin priveleges handy?
<froud> just a sec must start a new XDMCP session
<froud> LaserJock: Actually you are right a std user has Administration and has System Monitor :-) Thanks
<LaserJock> hmm, are there fewer items in the menu?
<LaserJock> I thought that the menu was either gone or at least items should be gone
<LaserJock> although I never had to enter a password to start system monitor
<LaserJock> ah yes, the administration menu is there, it's just got a limited number of items
<froud> LaserJock: yes
<froud> I was also thinking that it was not there at all :-)
<LaserJock> me too
<LaserJock> I had to set up a non-admin user to test it ;-)
<LaserJock> mdke: ping?
<mdke> LaserJock: pong
<LaserJock> mdke: how are the -commits emails made?
<mdke> no idea
<froud> LaserJock: svn-hooks
<LaserJock> it'd be nice to have the Log: section before all the Modified: stuff
<froud> LaserJock: When a commit it made SVN has a hook to process the diff and send to a given mail address
<LaserJock> k
<froud> LaserJock: This can be done by editing the svn hook script
<LaserJock> well, I just thought of it after jjesse's last monster commit
<LaserJock> you have to scroll down to the bottom to see the commit log
<LaserJock> mdke: sorry for bothering you, go back to bed ;-)
<mdke> no bother, am not in bed yet
<LaserJock> hmm, we need to get nixternal an RSS feed :-)
<jeffsch> froud: you can add a force-quit button to the gnome panel
<froud> jeffsch: hmm nice idea
<froud> jeffsch: thing is the training material must be generic to the distro since the training center will only install std setup and will not custom each desktop
<jeffsch> froud: hmmm.... maybe add a customize-your-desktop section, and include how to add the force-quit button to the gnome panel
<froud> jeffsch: customization is not part of the course objectives :-)
<froud> jeffsch: we must work in strict guidelines
<froud> jeffsch: they provide the framework, we develop the content
<froud> unfortunately, we cannot just add as we please. Although in places we would like to do so :-)
<jeffsch> i guess shutting down misbehaving apps isn't part of the course objectives either :)
<jeffsch> normally though, at least in gnome, when an app crashes you can still click on the window's close button
<jeffsch> then you are prompted with a "app not responding... do you want to kill?" dialogue
<froud> Yes, the topic mentions this an dif this fails points to System Monitor
<froud> jeffsch: being a kde user I was not sure what tool was the equiv if KDE SystemGuard :-)
<nixternal> LaserJock: i don't need no stinkin' rss feed ;)
<LaserJock> nixternal: I know *you* don't, I do ;-)
<nixternal> what do you need an rss feed for?
<LaserJock> all your -doc emails :-0
<nixternal> ahaha
<nixternal> it means work is getting done when you see my emails though
<LaserJock> yes
<nixternal> create a dir in your inbox and call it nixternals_junk ;)
<LaserJock> hehe
<nixternal> i need something to replace kontact i think.
<LaserJock> evolution? ;p
<crimsun> nothing has managed to replace mutt
<nixternal> im on kde..no evo here
<nixternal> crimsun: i messed up replacing mutt i think
<nixternal> i went from pine, to mutt...to everything else
<crimsun> there are only two religions, vim and mutt.
<LaserJock> hehe
<nixternal> i want something like kontact..calendar, tasks, addresses, and email
<LaserJock> I tried mutt
<mdke> crimsun: I follow the religion of gedit and thunderbird
* nixternal is kate and kmail
<LaserJock> weird, I'm mostly vim and thunderbird
<crimsun> mdke: the world is full of blasphemy
<nixternal> lol
* mdke pats gedit
<nixternal> kate > gedit ;)
<LaserJock> I must admit, Paris got me interested in GUI apps again
<nixternal> does gedit have xml validation for docbooks?
<mdke> yes
<nixternal> cool
<mdke> but it works by eye
<crimsun> LaserJock: well, that is why *buntu exists :)
<nixternal> so gedit and kate are pretty much the same..just one for the g and the other for the k
<mdke> you read the docbook code, and decide whether it's valid... simple as that *pats gedit again*
<nixternal> haha
<LaserJock> crimsun: well, actually running Ubuntu on my laptop for 7 days straight really helped
<nixternal> validation in kate runs and within a couple of 2nds it lets you know if there are errors or not ;)
* nixternal pets kate ;)
<mdke> too easy
<crimsun> LaserJock: yeah, I doubt there are that many Ubuntu devs who use X Window System solely for terminal emulators like I do
* mdke bed
<LaserJock> crimsun: iwj and a couple others
<crimsun> yeah, I knew about iwj
#ubuntu-doc 2006-07-01
<froud> Other than using About Ubuntu. Is there a way for a user to determine the operating system version information via a GNOME GUI app? Something like the info displayed via KControl in KDE?
<mdke> froud: not that I know of
<froud> mdke: what about details of the kernel version?
<mdke> froud: nope, don't think so. But if you ask in a Gnome channel you might get more reliable information
* mdke double bed
<froud> :-) If you dont know then I dont think they will do better
<cosmolax> hello.
<robotgeek> hi cosmolax 
<cosmolax> a moment ago, I reEdit the section "Ubuntu Dapper Installfest In Taiwan" in the UWN issue #5 draft.
<cosmolax> I just remove the duplicate hyperlink of the article.
<cosmolax> That's because the writer use another wiki system but not moinmoin. sorry for that.
<robotgeek> cosmolax: sure, thanks :)
<robotgeek> i think the links are slightly messed up, i will fix
<cosmolax> robotgeek: thank you.
<robotgeek> cosmolax: refresh :)
<cosmolax> robotgeek: looks much great. :)
<robotgeek> cosmolax: cool :). good luck with installfest!
<cosmolax> robotgeek: I wish.:)
<cosmolax> robotgeek: the party place is small, but people signuped have been exploded. LoL
<robotgeek> that is good news!
<cosmolax> robotgeek: in the beginnig, we thought maybe 30 people would be good enough, then, Wow! so many people interesting of Ubuntu ! :)
<nixternal> with the packaging guide pdf..is there a way to print 4 pages on one sheet of paper, book style/front to back?
<Madpilot> that depends on which PDF viewer you're using, I think
<nixternal> im looking at kpdf..which seems rather ummm...feature lacking
<Madpilot> try Adobe Acrobat Reader - it's a giant pig, but it's still the most complete PDF reader going
<Madpilot> it's in Multiverse - look for acroread
<nixternal> im trying that one now
<nixternal> i got the latest and greatest version of that pig
<nixternal> as the local college uses pdf for all documentation
<nixternal> so i am rather used to the #@$#
<nixternal> i will however..try to get them to switch to svn and docbooks in the xml class next fall
<Madpilot> Evince is pretty good - it's Gnome's default viewer - but acroread is still the standard
<nixternal> well...my idea is actually more work then what i would like..i will just print double sided...that will work for what i need
<mdke> morning
<Madpilot> hi mdke 
<mdke> hiya
<Madpilot> Happy Canada Day ;)
<mdke> ah, same to you
<tonyyarusso> Sort of morning
<Madpilot> 0135 is technically morning
<mdke> Madpilot: btw #redirect only does pages within the same wiki, you need "#refresh # url" for urls
<Madpilot> ah, cool
<Madpilot> thanks
<mdke> how should I celebrate canada day?
<Madpilot> get sunburned & drunk, then sing "Oh Canada" off key
<mdke> similar to English celebrations, except a different song
<Madpilot> but only the first verse, in English then French, because nobody even knows the rest of the versee ;)
<Madpilot> s/versee/verses
<mdke> I saw some English football fans recently who had sunburn on their chests in the form of the English flag
<mdke> flair
<Madpilot> that takes dedication - and careful application of sunblock
<tonyyarusso> I might know them if I thought about it actually...
<Madpilot> tonyyarusso, what, the 2nd & subsequent verses of "Oh Canada"?
<tonyyarusso> Madpilot: Yeah.  Or at least I did at one time.
<tonyyarusso> Learned them for when our minor league baseball team was playing Winnipeg.
<Madpilot> I've grown up in this country, and I've never known them. Not sure I've ever even heard them... ;)
<Madpilot> at school we did the 1st verse, in both languages, and that was it
<Madpilot> then "Dog Shave the Queen" in English at the end of our school assemblies
<tonyyarusso> Hehe
<mdke> disgraceful
<Madpilot> oh, sorry... I meant "God Save...etc" :)
<tonyyarusso> They did all of the verses every morning at the school I had my placement in for con-ed, and I was just starting to get the hang of it when they started doing them in French instead.
<mdke> no respect these canadians
<Madpilot> mdke, Lizzie's a lovely woman, it's the rest of her family that worries me :)
<Madpilot> I'm a monarchist by default, because we've got one now and it mostly works
<mdke> indeed
<mdke> for most definitions of works
<Madpilot> for the definition that includes "Look what having a President has gotten our good friends to the south of us"
<mdke> heh
<mdke> yelp has got a caching thing in cvs which might speed it up quite a lot
<mdke> hope so
<Madpilot> nice
<Madpilot> Yelp does need some love in the speed department, even in Dapper
<Madpilot> Dammit, I wish people could spell "Ubuntu" right...
<Madpilot> having to fix a bunch of pages in help.u.c/c because someone can't spell...
<rob> hehe thats funny, its at the top in big black letters on every page
<Madpilot> it's the name of the damn distro, FFS, you'd think people would *check*...
<Madpilot> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SwitchingToUbuntu/FromLinux <-- massive chunks of this could probably just die, and be replaced by links to the actual pages on the various topics
<dsas> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UserDocumentation has a "Laptops" link right at the bottom which points to LaptopTestingTeam. Should this link be aimed at w.u.c/LaptopTestingTeam or just scrapped?
<Madpilot> aim it at wuc/LaptopTestingTeam, and expand the text in huc/c/UserDoc to explain a bit more, I'd say....
<dsas> "Reports on using Ubuntu on portable computers." ?
<dsas> hmm, all my page subscriptions have gone.
<dsas> Madpilot: Who do I need to talk to too get page deletion privs?
<Madpilot> dsas, mdke, for now
<Madpilot> are you a WikiTeam member in LP?
<dsas> nope.
<Madpilot> you on DocTeam in LP?
<dsas> nope. I presume I need to be a member of one of those first?
<Madpilot> not really, but it helps
<Madpilot> eventually all approved WikiTeam members will automagically have delete/rename privs
<dsas> ok, I'll apply for the wikiteam and catch up with mdke when he's around.
<dsas> Thanks for the help
<Madpilot> np
<Madpilot> you can always ping here or the ML if you've got a candidate page for deletion
<dsas> There's three pages at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Test
<Madpilot> looks like they're gone already?
<dsas> hmm, I get three pages teste, testpage1 and testpage2 all linked from the 'Test' page not found search result.
<Madpilot> ah, yeah
<Madpilot> in the search box, below the "This page does not exist..." line
<Madpilot> I'll kill those three now
<dsas> thanks
<Madpilot> np
<nixternal> moins
<nixternal> that email burg just sent...he talks about us in #3
<nixternal> http://linux-blog.org/index.php?/archives/154-5-Unique-Tips-for-New-Ubuntu-Users.html
<nixternal> i know jjesse has been discussing the topic of the documentation for that
<CarlFK> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CarlKarsten - exists (no longer redirecting to help.ubuntu... ?)
<CarlFK> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Installation/LocalNet has CarlKarsten -> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/CarlKarsten which is 404
<nixternal> personel pages aren't to be redirected to h.u.c
<CarlFK> that seems to be a chage
<nixternal> ya..personal pages are sticking on w.u.c 
<nixternal> i see though with the @SIG@ it shows h.u.c/c/WikiName
<CarlFK> that means all the links to them that are now on h.u.c are broken ?
<nixternal> if it is from the @SIG@ feature then yes..unless we recreate our personal pages on h.u.c and #refresh 0 https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ourpage
<nixternal> i don' tknow if they want that on the h.u.c though
<CarlFK> bleck
<nixternal> mdke can probably have the sig feature fixed so that it goes to w.u.c instead
<CarlFK> I can see why.. but I think it is too late
<nixternal> that @SIG@ is just a macro..probably python scripted...
<nixternal> well im sure it is in python since moinmoin is python ;)
<CarlFK> should I post anything about to the -doc list of LP?
<CarlFK> or is it 'known issue' 
<nixternal> you are the first to bring it up
<nixternal> i would post it
<CarlFK> will do
<nixternal> definately is valid..as i have yet to notice it ;)
<CarlFK> do you know what db the pages are stored in? 
<CarlFK> mysql, bdb... dir of textfiles..
<CarlFK> nixternal: what is this @SIG@ you speak of?
<CarlFK> guessing I should use it
<nixternal> oh..it is a macro that posts your name, date, and time when you post...
<nixternal> hmm..i can't see what moinmoin uses for db
<nixternal> i don't see anything about it at all on the moinmoin install site
<CarlFK> huh - I asked on the -doc list, 
<CarlFK> part of the "delete CatDoc" thread 
<CarlFK> if it is written "well" you can pick a db
<nixternal> mpt made a good point on the CatDoc stuff about deleting them when you do work on the pages
<CarlFK> which means it is up to the person who installed it
<CarlFK> yeah - I don't really care about the CatDoc issue  - but if I can help a bunch of editors focus on something useful ... good. ;)
<nixternal> i went through the other night with some free time and removed a bunch of pages from the CatDoc...I emailed the list letting them know..not a good idea ;)
<nixternal> exactly
<nixternal> i hear your point there
#ubuntu-doc 2006-07-02
<mgalvin> anyone around?
<LaserJock> kinda
<mgalvin> hey LaserJock, i was just looking for another set of eyes to review UWN #5 before i send it out if you have tim
<mgalvin> time
<nixternal> if you don't LaserJock i can look at it
<LaserJock> what's the URL?
<nixternal> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter/Issue5
<mgalvin> i just finished some last minute tweaks so it should be mostly the finial version, i am just half asleep now and more eyes help :)
<nixternal> 4 projects for the marketing team..but you won't see the 4th until it is done..and that is the wiki makeover ;)
<mgalvin> :)
<mgalvin> jenda wrote that bit anyway
<nixternal> mgalvin: you will get an earload of jenda doesn't make it in there for making Ubuntu Member
<nixternal> hahahaha
<nixternal> oh wow...cds and stickers and i haven't gotten mine yet...now i am really mad ;)
<mgalvin> :) i know, i can't wait till mine get here
<nixternal> where are you from mgalvin?
<LaserJock> I got mine in Paris ;-)
<nixternal> i just got word from 1, yes 1 person in the US, he got his Kubuntu stickers...the day shipit opened i put my stuff in..and i still haven't gotten anything...plus this guy is the first in the US that i know of
<LaserJock> heh
<nixternal> not stickers
<nixternal> cd's
<nixternal> and he said his didn't come with stickers
<nixternal> cosmolax: those t-shirts are sweet!!!
<Plug_> mgalvin: do you want random small grammatical edits, like inserting commas?
<mgalvin> Plug_: sure, go for it
<mgalvin> thanks for you help guys, let me know when your done son i can send it out
<mgalvin> ug, i need sleep, u know what i mean 
<nixternal> i know what you mean
<nixternal> i need ice cream
<nixternal> ;)
<Plug_> I perhaps wouldnt quote Mark on the artists appointments
<Plug_> but rewrite it in a standard journalistic fashion
<mgalvin> Plug_: you can if you want to do it quickly, i just stuck it there like that for now b/c its 1am (didn't have much free time this weekend)
<Plug_> Sure.
<mgalvin> sweet thanks
<Plug_> When it reports "Status of sending notification mails:", has it actually emailled all those people about the change?
<mgalvin> yes
<mgalvin> it emails a diff
<Plug_> must make for a fun mailbox for those guys. :)
<Plug_> Finished the edits.
<Plug_> Should someone be putting the UWNs on the fridge?
<mgalvin> yea, i have to let them know
<mgalvin> i am going to mail it to ubuntu-news for now
<mgalvin> thanks guys
<mgalvin> i am gonna send it out now
<Plug_> no problem.
<cosmolax> nixternal: thanks. :)
* cosmolax you guys are sweet too. :)
<Madpilot> how can someone sign up @ LP and not provide a visible email address?
<mdke> Madpilot: select "hide my email address" under "Personal Details"
<mdke> morning everyone
<Madpilot> mdke, ah, that would explain it
<mdke> Madpilot: also, people who get added to launchpad automatically have hidden addresses by default I think
<Madpilot> on w.u.c, TrevorPounds has been doing some stuff that really belongs over on huc/c/, and he's got no wiki page & no visible email addy in LP
<mdke> how annoying
<Madpilot> yeah
<Madpilot> it's not bad work, but some of it is duplicating stuff that already exists, and it's all in the wrong wiki
<mdke> god the main wiki is so slow still
<froud> Some here may disagree on this point. But I think adding a link to a commercial   Ubuntu publication from the Help menu in a Free OS is not very tasteful and smacks of marketing and promotion. It's in bad taste if you ask me. Just my 2 cents.
<tonyyarusso> I can see the reasoning for it, but I think I might agree with that one.  Might depend - is it being sold for cost or at a profit?
<froud> tonyyarusso: It's the intent that strikes me as out of place
<froud> Might I just add that I have great respect for the authors
<mdke> I think it harms the help menu, but to be fair, it isn't a link to a commercial publication
<mdke> it's a link to extracts which are provided in the default installation under a free licence
<tonyyarusso> If they're saying, "hey, there's this other thing available, but it was expensive to make so we're charging to recover costs", I don't mind that.  But if it's "we put this thing together as a capital venture and then added a link to everyone's menu" it's not as cool.
<froud> tonyyarusso: I think this opens the doors to a slippery slop where if one publication can do it, then so all must be afforded the same opportunity. In which case other books on Ubuntu Books must be afforded the same opportunity
<tonyyarusso> mdke: Okay, that's true.  A bit of a technical point though it seems ultimately.
<mdke> I don't think so
<mdke> there's a big difference between providing free documentation with the operating system and advertising a commercial publication
<froud> mdke it says "to purchase a copy visit http://....."
<mdke> froud: there is nothing wrong with that dude
<mdke> the reason for the inclusion was to promote books which are released under free licences
<mdke> I definitely disagree with having it in the help menu
<mdke> I think it confuses users
<mdke> but I know for a fact that its inclusion wasn't based on commercial reasons
<tonyyarusso> mdke: Okay, that helps some.  Do you have an alternative placement suggestion?  Installed at all, or just ubuntu.com, other?
<froud> Hmmm, does that mean that I will be able t promote the ECDL/ICDL stuff we develop under free license and sell for a profit http://www.inwords.co.za/content/view/103/68/
<mdke> froud: you can promote it, sure
<froud> mdke: the idea to more info is good
<froud> but I think it should point to a page on ubuntulinux.org
<mdke> tonyyarusso: I think it should be simply in example content
<froud> one where a collection of works can be dislayed
<tonyyarusso> mdke: That sounds about right to me.  I'll second that.
<froud> anyway, just thought I would mention it. As Isay, the idea is good, but should provide equal oportunity to equivalent works :-)
<froud> mdke: is anyone working on docs for the menu editor?
<mdke> i don't think there are any
* froud thinks there will be ;-)
<mdke> there are certainly no Ubuntu books under a free licence that I am aware of, and no others which are both under a free licence and supported by Canonical
<froud> mdke: is it only for Free works
<froud> and only those supported by Canonical?
<mdke> sure, that was a big reason for including it in the distribution
<froud> So provided the license is free it is OK, the src does not have to be available
<mdke> there is no rule about this
<mdke> they just included the official book, that's it. They're not setting any precedents
<froud> perhaps include http://www.linux-books.us/ubuntu_0002.php
<froud> mdke: I think it should point to a list of ubuntu books, free or not
<froud> for example http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/103-7912192-3174229?%5Fencoding=UTF8&search-type=ss&index=stripbooks%3Arelevance-above&field-keywords=Ubuntu
<froud> But I must say I love the idea of the help menu having various options
<mdke> froud: ok, but that's not what it is there for.
<mdke> I have to say I disagree about the help menu
<mdke> the help menu having various options is good, but they shouldn't have more than one option of documentation, otherwise users get confused.
<froud> mdke: thinking like a user now. Would I really care what it is there for. All I want is to get more information
<mdke> yeah, and if you have three different places, as a user, how do you know which to try?
<froud> mdke: I can't see it confusing people if the Online Help option points direct to the online ubuntu help
<mdke> you'll see it if you think about my question
<froud> mdke: Books on Ubuntu instead of eXCERPT FROM bOOK
* mdke sighs
<froud> mdke: it's only my personal impression
<froud> but I found the single menu just demonstrated that there are many help options available, inlcuding commercial and comunity support
<froud> To me it was clear when I saw the options, only thing that I did not like was that the menu linked to and thereby promoted a single work
<mdke> having different help options is certainly positive
<froud> yes
<mdke> but not more than one source of documentation. Two (online and system) is already too many
<froud> mdke: I understand your thinking
<froud> Online also depends on the person being online :-)
<mdke> indeed
<froud> So if a work is not supported by Canonical, it cannot feature in that menu?
<mdke> well, everything in ubuntu is supported by Canonical
<froud> We have plan to develop a measureup type of system for ECDL students that would integrate to that menu
<mdke> Not sure what that is, but presumably it doesn't apply to default Ubuntu installs
<mdke> some kind of derivative?
<froud> It would be an addon package
<froud> Test Yourself type of thing
<froud> Question and Answers = Score at end
<froud> Not part of default, as you say
<mdke> sounds cool
<mdke> not help though, surely
<froud> No courseware is instructor lead, but training center will have MeasureUp installed on each sudent desktop and students can install MeasureUp at home since they will be given a copy of Ubuntu (free to install)
<froud> Anyway, nough said, I must go back to writing
<froud> Thanks for your input on that
<robitaille> mdke,  you're an Ubuntu star now...people come to you with their specs :)
<OHPhoneGuy> Can someone look at some documentation that I've came up with to give me some creative critism on making it better?
<OHPhoneGuy> http://www.ianwilson.org/index.php/Ubuntu_Linux_Install_Guide
#ubuntu-doc 2007-06-25
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-doc.log
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-doc.log
<beeman_nl> hi folk... in this page ( https://help.ubuntu.com/7.04/installation-guide/i386/preseed-contents.html ) there is a link to the example preseed
<beeman_nl> but when you click it, you'll get a 404...
<beeman_nl> i could'nt find a colofon on the help site, someone from #ubuntu pointed me to this channel
<beeman_nl> i'm trying to create a bug report at https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-doc/   but i can't seem to add one...
<ian_brasil> hi ...i am checking out the svn doc trunk and I received svn co https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/trunk/.
<ian_brasil> Error validating server certificate for 'https://docteam.ubuntu.com:443':
<ian_brasil>  - The certificate is not issued by a trusted authority. Use the
<ian_brasil>    fingerprint to validate the certificate manually!
<ian_brasil> 
<ian_brasil> any ideas?
<beeman_nl> ian_brasil: i myself have no trouble checking it out...
<ian_brasil> maybe you have already accepted the certificate?
<beeman_nl> no, it is the first time i co it
<beeman_nl> and it is valid till october '07
<beeman_nl> so that shouldn't be a problem...
<ian_brasil> Mmm
<ian_brasil> the standard workflow ifor documentation s checkout svn, edit docbook, create diff (if without committ rights to svn)...e-mail patch to ubuntu-doc list ??
<eset> hi, when is the next meeting for the documentation team?
<nixternal> eset: we are waiting for mdke_ to get back after all of his wedding stuff, so hopefully in the next couple of weeks, we will post the date and time on the fridge as well as the mailing list
<eset> ok, thanks
<eset> i was wondering how the doc team feels about collaborating with other writing projects?
<eset> has there been collaboration like this in the past?
<nixternal> there have been attempts
<nixternal> what kind of writing project are you referring to?
<eset> a wiki for writing free manuals about free software
<eset> i established one last year but i have just started working on it in earnest
<eset> and it seems the ubuntu teams docs and the manuals in the wiki compliment each other quite well
<nixternal> eset: they don't complement each other as much as we would like just yet
<nixternal> hopefully one day they will be exactly where we want them
<eset> ah, i meant the manuals in the wiki i work on and the ubuntu docs complimen teach other quite well
<eset> and since the world of documentation writing is small, but growing, combining efforts might be a good idea
<nixternal> they are definitely getting better for sure...but something like your idea would be a great topic during our next meeting
<eset> okedoke
<eset> how does somehting get on the agenda?
<nixternal> dunno about combining efforts, but the licensing allows it to occur. most of our documentors tend to have lives, except for me..I am currently documenting KDE and Kubuntu, so I tend to get stretched thin on projects :)
<eset> hehe...i bet
<nixternal> eset: when we announce the meeting, we will setup a page on the wiki to add items to
<eset> ok
<eset> i will keep an eye on the announcement then
<eset> and in the meantime i will focus on writing some more docs too ;)
<nixternal> rock on!
<nixternal> gimme a link to the wiki you have
<eset> ok... -> www.flossmanuals.net
<nixternal> hehe, nice name
<eset> hehe, thanks
<eset> welcome any feedback
<nixternal> I just started a domain flossyard which will bring in various stale floss projects to one location to give new developers something to work on
<eset> nice!
<eset> seems we think alike...there is a lot already done if it can only be found easily....
<nixternal> where is emacs at under the text editors in the cli stuff ;p
<eset> hehe...yeah yeah
<eset> u can always add it ;)
<eset> but im a vim guy
<nixternal> man, I was at Barcamp Chicago this weekend, and a lot of people still use Pico, which is Nano really
<eset> cant do anything about it
<eset> yeah...i really like them both..really simple
<eset> when i was using pine it all worked so well....
<nixternal> 95-98 I was an Emacs guy, then working for Sun Microsystems I became a Vi guy, now I am whatever mood I am in :)
<eset> ha! well, i know i will _never_ get the emacs virus, ever
<nixternal> ahh Pine, the good old days. I just recently gave up Mutt for Kontact/KMail
<eset> actually i settled for evolution (blush)
<eset> i went on a trip for 3 months with very little connectivity and had to have it all local
<eset> so downloaded 7 years of email
<eset> yowser
<nixternal> ouch
<eset> rekin
<nixternal> I used to use Evolution back when the Ximian desktop was out...that was some pretty nasty days, but I think it did quite a bit for the Linux desktop considering the time
<eset> i like it...its pretty stable and simple to use...its fine...but i dont feel so geeky using it...its like buying and older, chumpier car
<nixternal> hehe
<nixternal> I still like Evolution over Thunderbird though, and actually Evolution doesn't crash as much as KMail does :)
<eset> i have to say evolution hasnt crashed once for me
<nixternal> but I play it safe, I use KMail for POP accounts, that way there I don't have to worry about losing email
<eset> i just used it only 7 months or so
<eset> ooo....my pizza is calling...smells good.....
<eset> yum!
<eset> ok...better run...i am on the mailing list...so i will look for an announcement about the meeting
<eset> im keen for some kind of synergy if there is a possibility
<eset> the more fusion the better i rekin
<nixternal> talk to ya later, I need to run myself
<eset> ok, cu :)
<beeman_nl> guys, on this page there is a link to the example preseed.txt, but that link doesnt work... https://help.ubuntu.com/7.04/installation-guide/i386/preseed-contents.html
<beeman_nl> where should i report that?
<ian_brasil> can anyone recommend a docbook editor?
<nixternal> ian_brasil: there isn't one. gEdit, Kate, Quanta, Bluefish, Vi, Emacs, all have syntax highlighters and indentation configurations, that is about as good as you can get
<ian_brasil> ok, thx
#ubuntu-doc 2007-06-26
<fijam> hello
<Admiral_Chicago> hey there. :)
<ubotu> New bug: #122297 in ubuntu-doc "Wrong version number in server guide" [Undecided,Invalid]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/122297
#ubuntu-doc 2007-06-27
<ubotu> New bug: #55409 in ubuntu-docs (main) "Typo in Ubuntu Documentation" [Low,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/55409
<nixternal> jjesse_: how can you find out if that was fixed?
<nixternal> I would just fix release, and if it isn't fixed, someone will reopen it
<ubotu> New bug: #118963 in ubuntu-docs (main) "postfix chroot environment doesn't have ca-certificates" [Undecided,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/118963
<ubotu> New bug: #122614 in ubuntu-docs (main) "gutsy "About ubuntu" says 7.04" [Undecided,New]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/122614
<Admiral_Chicago> j1mc: feel free to send those comments to me whenever you get home, I'll be free all day: I may go out for dinner as well
<Admiral_Chicago> beside, I'll be working on release notes
<j1mc> ok  :)
<Admiral_Chicago> so i'll be up late
#ubuntu-doc 2007-06-28
<ubotu> New bug: #122713 in xubuntu-docs (main) "Path in xubuntu documentation does not match true situation" [Undecided,New]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/122713
<fijam> hello
<jjesse> hello
<Admiral_Chicago> hello
<nixternal> hello
<nixternal> I think we had the start of a 3 stooges line going there for a second
* Admiral_Chicago falls over
<fijam> I have recently joined xubuntu documentation team, and I have a few basic questions to ask.
<fijam> AFAIK, the xubuntu documentation will be based on the ubuntu documentation, which has been recently copied over existing xubuntu documentation in the snv
<fijam> My first question is how the main chapters should be linked from the main index.xml file?
<fijam> currently it's like that 'About Ubuntu' links to /about-ubuntu/C/index.html
<fijam> while the actual relevant file is /about-ubuntu/C/about-ubuntu.xml
<fijam> consequently, yelp alerts user of an invalid file
<fijam> what is the proper way to do that?
<fijam> In case if all my reasoning is wrong, please refer me to the relevant wiki pages.
#ubuntu-doc 2007-06-29
<Admiral_Chicago_> hey there j1mc
<j1mc> heya, Admiral_Chicago_
<jjesse> evening
<j1mc> hi jjesse
<jjesse> hiya j1mc
<j1mc> a lot of people in this channel saying hello this evening.  :)
<jjesse> :)
<j1mc> jjesse: fijam asked a bunch of questions on the channel earlier today... i'm not sure if he got a response.  did you see those questions, and if he got a response?
<jjesse> hmm didn't see the questions
<j1mc> np... i think he was going to ask on the ml
<jjesse> are you in chicago as well j1mc?
<jjesse> nixternal and Admiral_Chicago_ looks like i might be comming back to chicago for a week in july we sould get together again
<Admiral_Chicago_> jjesse: definetly
<Admiral_Chicago_> jjesse: j1mc is in chicago as well. he is sitting next to me now
<jjesse> awesome, i'll let the two of you know when exactly so we can do another meet up again
<Admiral_Chicago_> awesome
<jjesse> my boss didn't even question the "company" dinner we had together :)
<Admiral_Chicago_> we are hacking on docs: perhaps you can answer a question
<jjesse> i can sure try
<Admiral_Chicago_> let me pastebin it
<Admiral_Chicago_> http://pastebin.ca/594581
<Admiral_Chicago_> so i'm looking for the proper way to refrence the terminal in the docs
<j1mc> jjesse: cool.  it would be good to meet you.
<Admiral_Chicago_> wouldn't it be Applications  >> accessories >> terminal
<jjesse> j1mc: yeah it will be nice
<Admiral_Chicago_> it seems lke there are two ways to refence the terminal in docbook, not sure which  way to do it
<Admiral_Chicago_> nixternal: feel free to answer that question
<jjesse> is it referenced both ways in our documents?
<Admiral_Chicago_> not sure, I haven't looked at all the docs
<Admiral_Chicago_> i've seen it both ways in teh kubuntu docs
<jjesse> hmm then we should standarize and file bugs to get it solved
<jjesse> wow saw an article the 1st year of an iPhone will run you $1936
<Admiral_Chicago_> dang.
<jjesse> i think it should be Applications >> Asscesories >> Terminal
<jjesse> that includes data and voice plans
<Admiral_Chicago_> i seem to remember there being discussion in doc ML
<jjesse> i thought so too, try the gmane archives?
<Admiral_Chicago_> looking now
<jjesse> is Rich still in class?
<Admiral_Chicago_> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2007-May/008493.html
<Admiral_Chicago_> not sure
<greg_g> So, I just had to uninstall the kubuntu-desktop meta package along with everything else.  The first link from google when searching for "uninstall kubuntu-desktop" is this: http://doc.gwos.org/index.php/Uninstall_kubuntu-desktop
<greg_g> I added my information there for Fiesty, but was wondering if you wanted to use it for the ubuntu wiki
<jjesse> Admiral_Chicago_: i acutally prefer the 2nd choice
<Admiral_Chicago_> as do i, makes it easier to visualize the navigation
<jjesse> but mdke_ has the final answer because of the entity it is defined
<jjesse> do you have an xubuntu-menus-C.ent?
<Admiral_Chicago_> uh thats a good question
<jjesse> or are you using the gnome-menus-C.ent
<Admiral_Chicago_> i don't know what that is
<jjesse> if you read: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2007-May/008501.html
<Admiral_Chicago_> how can I check.
<jjesse> you see that the gnome-menus-C.ent lists entities for gnome
<Admiral_Chicago_> ah okay
<Admiral_Chicago_> let me navigate the docs for a sec
<jjesse> ok in /trunk/xubuntu/libs there is a xubuntu.ent, and there is also the gnome-munus-C.ent
<jjesse> so now you can reference whatever is in any of those as long as your xml includes those files
<jjesse> looks like in xubuntu.ent there is an entity for for terminal already
<jjesse> <!ENTITY terminal '<menuchoice><guimenu>Applications</guimenu><guimenuitem>System</guimenuitem><guimenuitem>Terminal</guimenuitem></menuchoice>'>
<Admiral_Chicago_> i'm in /libs but don't see the xubuntu.ent
<Admiral_Chicago_> ah i see it
<Admiral_Chicago_> okay col
<greg_g> Am I in the correct channel for my inquiry?
<greg_g> (is only trying to help, I saw a need and I am trying to fix it)
<Admiral_Chicago_> jjesse: http://pastebin.ca/594618
<jjesse> greg_g: sorry let me read scroll
<Admiral_Chicago_> what do you think of those edits?
<jjesse> if you use &terminal; it should build out all of <!ENTITY terminal '<menuchoice><guimenu>Applications</guimenu><guimenuitem>System</guimenuitem><guimenuitem>Terminal</guimenuitem></menuchoice>'> when you go to build it
<jjesse> that's the beauty of entities
<greg_g> I am thinking of editing this page to include removal in Fiesty: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/FromUbuntuToKubuntu
<jjesse> sounds good to me greg_g
<greg_g> thanks jjesse, since this is my first time contributing to the help wiki, I thought it would be best to make sure I had the right idea.
<jjesse> greg_g: to be honest i usually do it and ask for forgiveness later :)
<greg_g> either way I guess :)
<Admiral_Chicago_> grr. okay doc work is frustration after all
<jjesse> yes yes it is :)
<jjesse> did it not work correct w/ the entitY?
<Admiral_Chicago_> well i haven't tried that yet
<Admiral_Chicago_> but i find section and section and section
<Admiral_Chicago_> like i started video then there was video one, two, three...
<Admiral_Chicago_> jjesse: would you mind looking at my diff in a second
<jjesse> Admiral_Chicago_: sure
<Admiral_Chicago_> email address?
<Admiral_Chicago_> jjesse at ubuntu dot com?
<jjesse> yes sir
<j1mc> when i try to validate a feisty .pot file after fixing a bug, i get an error: http://pastebin.ca/594649
<jjesse> ok heading out to walk the dog
<jjesse> be back in a bit
<j1mc> i didn't change that... :)  is that an error, or should i not worry?
<j1mc> ok, jjesse
<nixternal> what is all of this work going on for? to much work for the doc channel
<nixternal> to much noise
<nixternal> j1mc: you don't validate .pot files
<nixternal> the validate script is only for .xml files
<j1mc> yessss... ok thanks.
<nixternal> you don't manually edit .pot files either
<j1mc> you don't?  why not?
<nixternal> there is a script that automatically generates them
<nixternal> pot files are automatically generated
<nixternal> xml2po
<j1mc> how do i know where the error came from then?
<nixternal> what error?
<nixternal> the error in pastebin?
<j1mc> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xubuntu-docs/+bug/122713
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 122713 in xubuntu-docs "Path in xubuntu documentation does not match true situation" [Undecided,Confirmed] 
<j1mc> !botsnack
<ubotu> Yum! Err, I mean, APT!
<nixternal> j1mc: you recreate all of the pot files and then create a new xubuntu docs package, get it uploaded, and rosetta will grab the new pot files
<nixternal> j1mc: as long as you have fixed it in the .xml, mark it as fix committed once you have sent in the patch and it gets uploaded
<nixternal> and why he is just now noticing this issue is beyond me
<nixternal> that should have been noticed probably back in Dapper, if not Edgy or Feisty, that's how old that error probably is
<j1mc> i don't even see it in the desktopguide.  it's only in the pot file
<j1mc> it's not in the xml...
<j1mc> do you think maybe the pot file wasn't regenerated for feisty?
<Admiral_Chicago_> sent to jjesse, j1mc, and nixternal
<j1mc> ./vilidate.sh /pathto/file.xml
<jjesse> Admiral_Chicago_:  did you figure out the validation problem?
<nixternal> j1mc: very well could have happened like that
<Admiral_1hicago_> i found the problem
<Admiral_1hicago_> well to one validation isssue
<Admiral_1hicago_> not sure about the other one
<Admiral_1hicago_> nixternal: can i just email you the file I have and you can give me feedback?
<Admiral_1hicago_> its a bit hard to work in here...
<jjesse> problems Admiral_Chicago?
<Admiral_Chicago_> yea, they changed the key on the wireless network.
<Admiral_Chicago_> jjesse: my documentation isn't validating....
<Admiral_Chicago_> i can't figure out where....
<jjesse> that's a bummer
<jjesse> i've spent a long time trying to get mine to validate
<jjesse> i need to work on validating my adept documentation
<jjesse> i think validation is the hardest part of working on documentation
<j1mc> nixternal: the problem was in the /docs-ubuntu/feisty/xubuntu/libs/xubuntu.ent file, so it took me a bit to track that down.
<j1mc> docs-ubuntu is my own folder name... but it's in the feisty branch.  :)
<j1mc> i've submitted a patch via the bug report, but i think they'll need to rebuild the pot file.
<Admiral_Chicago_> bug # ?
<j1mc> that would be the only way to correct it.
<jjesse> nixternal: Ping
<j1mc> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xubuntu-docs/+bug/122713
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 122713 in xubuntu-docs "Path in xubuntu documentation does not match true situation" [Undecided,Confirmed] 
<jjesse> nixternal: for my adept documentation when it gets built do i use the kubuntu-docs entities or how does that work?
<nixternal> yo yo
<nixternal> jjesse: well if it is for Kubuntu then yes, if it is the KDE ones, then using meinproc will cause it to link to the KDE entities correctly
<jjesse> umm....
<nixternal> Admiral_Chicago_: you sent an email, but no patch, was that meant to be?
<jjesse> ok it is the kubuntu specific adept guide
<jjesse> nixternal: also did you see i will probablly be in chicago in july
<jjesse> for another week
<nixternal> wow, this is going to be difficult...if you do one for KDE, we will then have 2 adept manuals
<nixternal> jjesse: rock on, make sure you warn me so I am in Michigan that week instead :)
<jjesse> nixternal: i know the problem is adept is different ify ou install on debian testing
<jjesse> then it is on gutsy
<nixternal> same version in Debian though?
<nixternal> we do a custom one, that is for sure
<Admiral_Chicago_> nixternal: oh yea...
<nixternal> maybe we should incorporate it into the installation section of our tbh?
<jjesse> nixternal: checking
<jjesse> version info that is
<nixternal> our installation section will need to get reworked now anyways. We have GDebi-KDE now
<jjesse> why the switch from adept to gdebi-kde?
<jjesse> afk for a bit, putting wife to bed :)
<jjesse> ok back for abit while wife is getting ready, are we moving from adept to something new
* jjesse is confused
<nixternal> not switching from adept. gdebi now allows Kubuntu to user the ability to just click a .deb file to install now
<jjesse> so how does that affect the way we install packages?
<nixternal> whereas before, if they downloaded a debian file, they had to install it via the command line, now they don't
<jjesse> so adept is still used?
<nixternal> doesn't affect the way we install package at all, it is just an added benefit
<nixternal> oh ya, adept is getting something close to a rewrite I believe
<jjesse> awesome, before or after i am done documenting it? also who is doing the overhaul?
<nixternal> the install section I created wasn't all that great in the first place, so now that I have a base, it will be easy to work with
<jjesse> debian version of adept is 2.1 cruiser
<nixternal> manchicken and mornfall, and probably after you are done
<nixternal> hrmm, Gutsy version is the same
<jjesse> intersting, can't find adept in my install of gutsy
<Admiral_Chicago_> what about upstream?
<nixternal> jjesse: because you did a dist-upgrade maybe? the apt and adept packages conflicted last week and if you installed apt, you removed adept
<jjesse> resinstalling kubuntu-desktop
<jjesse> ok afk for about 15 minutes now, so manchicken is someone i should contafct then?
<jjesse> probablly going to do a whole rewrite of what i have then :(
<Admiral_Chicago_> :\
<nixternal> jjesse: not a whole rewrite, that would be nuts. But I think there are going to be some "big" internal type changes, and of course the GUI will change. I don't think it passed the KDE usability audits
<nixternal> I think I remember seele saying it was horrible. and when she says that, it has meaning since she leads that project (KDE usability) and does that for a living :)
<Admiral_Chicago_> be back in a bit...
<jjesse> back
<jjesse> nixternal: i think you are right, i know it is terrible to use and i  don't know usablity
<nixternal> I know it is ugly
<nixternal> heck, since dapper there has been that one button that was always grayed out, no functionality, and just now something is getting done about it
<jjesse> ok so back to my original question, should i change it to use kubuntu's entities?
<nixternal> if it isn't going to be packaged apart of adept, and will be maintained in our repos, I say yes
<jjesse> ok so me think this out then, there needs to be an adept guide that ships in kde and there needs to be an adept guide that ships with kubuntu (noting changes kubuntu has made)
<nixternal> true
<jjesse> so how does that work :)
<nixternal> as long as it gets into KDE, I am happy :)
<nixternal> oh wait, I will put it in KDE :)
<jjesse> :)
<nixternal> you should go ahead and get you a SVN account there as well since you are planning on doing some contributing
<nixternal> 10 more minutes of this garbage
<nixternal> do you have asp.net experience at all? ever used it? ever seen it?
<jjesse> ok, i need to remember my gpg to unlock my password to get access back to ubuntu-doc svn
<jjesse> asp.net? yeah i've used it before
<nixternal> my lord, it is the worse thing I have ever in my life messed with
<jjesse> i think i have a asp.net book from MS Press laying around
<nixternal> I am sitting in my ASP.NET class
<jjesse> bummer to that, i think i'm going to play madden 07
<nixternal> I would rather draw images of Microsoft on my thighs with a razer blade
<jjesse> are you doing everything in mono?
<nixternal> some stuff I have been
<nixternal> but so far I haven't been able to get the aspx stuff working correctly with monodevelop
<jjesse> ah
<nixternal> I need to give that a try again actually..it could have been because I had no clue what I was doing at first
<nixternal> oh well, I am going to head home, see y'all later :)
<jjesse> l8ter
<j1mc> nixternal: i submitted a patch that will fix the bug (# 122713), but the .pot file will need to be regenerated for it to show as fixed to the translators.
<j1mc> can i do that?
<nixternal> yes
<j1mc> is there an app to do it?  what's the name of it?
<nixternal> command line :)
<nixternal> from trunk/xubuntu
<nixternal> which app is this by the way?
<j1mc> it's in the feisty branch
<nixternal> we have a script that creates them all at once
<nixternal> actually, what I would do, is hold off on that...a .pot patch is nothing nice
<nixternal> they are tremendous in size
<nixternal> we have about 2 months before we create the pots anyways I believe
<nixternal> but I don't know, seeing as rosetta is open, it might make sense to run the pots now
<j1mc> nixternal: it's a feisty-doc bugfix, though.  the problem may also be in trunk, but this person is trying to translate feisty docs.
<nixternal> hrmm...well it probably won't get fixed for feisty, as it isn't life threatening, and getting just that updated would be crazy to get an SRU to go through
<j1mc> ah, ok.
<fijam> hello
<jjesse> hello
<fijam> hi
<nixternal> Kubuntu docs are switching to GPLv3! ;p
<nixternal> hi fijam
<ubotu> New bug: #50707 in sun-java5 (multiverse) "JDK docs not listed in yelp" [Low,Incomplete]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/50707
<nixternal> oh wow, and that is our fault how?
<nixternal> that is because JDK docs are to be looked at with a browser
<nixternal> not our problem anymore..all they did was subscribe us thankfully
<bdmurray> nixternal: that was my bad then I figured you were more knowledgable about yelp
<nixternal> oh...hehe
<nixternal> the JDK docs are meant to be read from a browser...I know because I use them almost daily now
<nixternal> to get them in Yelp, the package would have to create a .desktop file and put it where ever Yelp looks..I think..I know that is how I would do it for KHelpCenter
<bdmurray> Well, I guess I was right to a degree - you did know more than me.
<nixternal> hehe
<nixternal> I am sure mdke_ or LaserJock would know better though with Yelp
<bdmurray> by the way do you know who the mythical wiki admins are?
<nixternal> I used to, but I think they have since left the company
<nixternal> I don't even know who the main admin is even more
<nixternal> I used to think kiko, but I guess he is more LP than anything else
<nixternal> that Java bug though, we need to see if we can get it fixed for Gutsy maybe...I need to yell, I mean speak at the current Java package anyways :)
<jjesse> hello
<jjesse> may i recomend timbuktu big block red
<jjesse> its a great wine :)
<nixternal> hehe
<nixternal> isn't it to early to be drinking?
<jjesse> nope, cooking dinner
<jjesse> its 6pm
<nixternal> oh ya, 6 there :)
<nixternal> I am getting ready to head up to timbuktu
<jjesse> yeah?
<nixternal> well at least where my aunt lives out in the boontoolies
<jjesse> boondocks?
<mpt> nixternal, you're in Mali?
<nixternal> worse, Chicago :)
<mpt> wow, good luck with that "swim across the Atlantic Ocean" step
<mpt> ;-)
<nixternal> mpt: timbuktu is a word us silly americans use to reference "out in the middle of nowhere" kind of
<nixternal> or somewhere far away that I have no clue about
<nixternal> speaking of that "swim across the Atlantic..." I just read about a guy who has done it
<jjesse> what?
<nixternal> ya, let me find the link
<mpt> nixternal, same here, but it's fun to flummox people by referring to the real one
<nixternal> and that you did :)
#ubuntu-doc 2007-06-30
<nixternal> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/180273.stm
<nixternal> 9 years almost he did it
<mpt> The New Zealand equivalent is "Waikikamukau"
<nixternal> 73 days...that would be awful
<nixternal> ya, timbuktu is easier to not only spell, but say :)
<mpt> nah, it's easy, it's a Maori transliteration of "Why kick a moo-cow?"
<nixternal> I would pronounce that "Why-key-kamoo-kow"
<nixternal> hahahaha
<nixternal> I pronounced it like a Hawaiin would
<nixternal> I like that, why kick a moo cow
<nixternal> argh, time to get ready...everybody enjoy...don't work to hard, and...ummm..bye :)
<mpt> Adios
<jjesse> me too tuna steaks, red wine, and vegatbles on the grill
<fijam> hello
<ian_brasil> Hi
<ian_brasil> i am trying to create html pages from docbook and I get this error:
<ian_brasil> vern@N800-hacker:~/ubuntu-doc/ubuntu$ make dg
<ian_brasil> make: *** No rule to make target `dg'. Stop.
<jjesse> ian_brasil: there isn't a desktopguide any more because of the switch to topic based help system
<ian_brasil> ok...i checked out the svn and created mobileguide in the generic folder
<ian_brasil> i copied the content of the server guide and i am now modifying it
<ian_brasil> to be a mobile guide...i want to create the html...is this possible or am i doing something wrong?
<jjesse> i don't quite understand how/if things changed with the move to topic based help
<jjesse> but the desktop guide no longer exists
<ian_brasil> but packaging /server guides still do??
<jjesse> as far as i know
<ian_brasil> ok, thx for your help
<jjesse> sorry i wasn't better help
<jjesse> wow a car blew upat glasgow airport
<ian_brasil> it is ok...i will hang around here anyway
<nixternal> jjesse: are you kidding me?
<nixternal> Akademy is going on there right now, just started today
#ubuntu-doc 2008-06-23
<moreal> @PSuserinfo !PhotoFans 6.32	4.12.080609+b34	ON	:C3AA1PJ5O3H:	50088	0	nofilter
<moreal> @PSuserinfo !PhotoFans 6.32	4.12.080609+b34	ON	:C3AA1PJ5O3H:	50088	0	nofilter
<moreal> @PSuserinfo !PhotoFans 6.32	4.12.080609+b34	ON	:C3AA1PJ6YJO:	50088	0	nofilter
<moreal> @PSuserinfo !PhotoFans 6.32	4.12.080609+b34	ON	:C3AA1PJ6YJO:	50088	0	nofilter
<moreal> @PSuserinfo !PhotoFans 6.32	4.12.080609+b34	ON	:C3AA1PJ6YJO:	50088	0	nofilter
#ubuntu-doc 2008-06-24
<moreal> @PSuserinfo !PhotoFans 6.32	4.12.080609+b34	ON	:C3AA1PJ99DN:	50088	0	nofilter
<sommer> what?
<moreal> @PSuserinfo !PhotoFans 6.32	4.12.080609+b34	ON	:C3AA1PJ5OUK:	50088	0	nofilter
<bimberi> mdke, Wider ban needed for moreal ^--
<moreal> @PSuserinfo !PhotoFans 6.32	4.12.080609+b34	ON	:C3AA1PJ5PUI:	50088	0	nofilter
<pwnguin> saving edits on the wiki is pretty slow recently -- is there anyone working to fix this?
<moreal> @PSuserinfo !PhotoFans 6.32	4.12.080609+b34	ON	:C3A91PJ5PUI:	50088	0	nofilter
<moreal008> @PSuserinfo !PhotoFans 6.32	4.12.080609+b34	ON	:C3AA1PJ5Q2J:	50088	0	nofilter
<moreal> @PSuserinfo !PhotoFans 6.32	4.12.080609+b34	ON	:C3AA1PJ5Q2J:	50088	0	nofilter
<cody-somerville> Whats up with the spam in this channel?
<sommer> +1
<sommer> it's breaking the normal silence :)
<m-c> Does the help.ubuntu.com use different credentials than the Ubuntu wiki and Launchpad?
<m-c> Well, since I am not hearing back, I will let the channel know about a typo on /community/KVM , the word "ostype" should be "os-type"
#ubuntu-doc 2008-06-25
<moreal> @PSuserinfo !PhotoFans 6.32	4.12.080609+b34	ON	:C3AA1PJ6BY9:	50088	0	nofilter
<l3on> Hi all.. where can I ask some questions about Ubuntu planet?
#ubuntu-doc 2008-06-27
<agy> Hello all. I am going to be migrating the help.ubuntu.com wiki in about 15 minutes. During this time the wiki will be marked as read-only. The migration should take approximately 45 minutes to complete.
<agy> The wiki syntax has changed a little bit, but not drastically - the migration scripts will migrate the pages to this new syntax, however I expect that it might not format everything correctly
<agy> Started the upgrade - the help.ubuntu.com wiki is now set to read-only mode.
<Rocket2DMn> ok
<Rocket2DMn> is this a new version of MoinMoin or something?
<agy> MoinMoin 1.6
<Rocket2DMn> do you have a link to major changes?>
<agy> http://hg.moinmo.in/moin/1.6/raw-file/1.6.3/docs/CHANGES
<agy> and we've implemented openid authentication against launchpad
<Rocket2DMn> ok, are we going to need to check pages for syntax and formatting errors?
<Rocket2DMn> like, do we know what types of things will most likely be affected?
<agy> yes please - during my tests there were only minor problems
<agy> the syntax problems i found was with the source code blocks '{{{ }}}'
<Rocket2DMn> !ping | Old_Soldier , read above FYI
<agy> only on a few select pages
<Rocket2DMn> thanks agy, what exactly was going on with those, b/c they are used all over the place
<agy> it now requires a space after the open brackets
<agy> i.e. '{{{ code }}}' works, but '{{{code }}}' doesn't
<Rocket2DMn> oh my
<Rocket2DMn> will the docteam receive an email about this?
<Rocket2DMn> why not run a script that finds those type of entries in pages and fixes them automatically?
<agy> i can send one - which list should i send too?
<Rocket2DMn> agy, ubuntu-doc : https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-doc
<agy> i will send the message after the migration is complete, thanks
<Rocket2DMn> no, thank you
<Rocket2DMn> it would be nice if we can run a script to automatically fix the problems, or at least prompt the admin running it for each instance.  i really don't think it's feasible for us to search through and fix every page by hand
<agy> Rocket2DMn: doing that right now while i wait for the data to be converted
<Rocket2DMn> what? the email or the script?
<agy> script
<Rocket2DMn> very groovy.  this team has enough trouble trying to keep the wiki up to date, not to mention doing minor page fixes.  we appreciate it
<Rocket2DMn> ok agy , its 3:30am here, im heading out.  Thanks for the update on the wiki upgrades.  Please let us know by email of any other problems that are likely to appear.  Good night.
<agy> The migration has been completed! Please let me know if you notice any obvious issues?
<agy> I will mail the mailing list with the announcement
<wallan> i'm wanting to add the elisa media center to the multimedia applications pages, but there isn't a section for media centers. anybody got any ideas?
<wallan> this one, mainly: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/MultimediaApplications
<wallan> also, i'd like to delete this page: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Elisa
<wallan> anyone know how to do that?
<bimberi> wallan: Feel free to add a section to MultimediaApplications.
<bimberi> wallan: I can delete the page, but wouldn't it be better just to modify its content.
<bimberi> ?
<wallan> cool, i'll add the section
<wallan> yes, i could just modify it
<wallan> i thought deleting it might be neater... but maybe it isn't a very wiki-spirited
<wallan> :)
<bimberi> :)
<bimberi> In fact, how about Elisa becomes your content, and you link to it from MultimediaApplications.
<bimberi> Just an idea.
<wallan> what do you mean 'becomes your content'? i've added a new Elisa page here: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ElisaMediaCenter
<wallan> should i just link to that?
<wallan> :s
<sommer> agy: nice job on the upgrade, thank you :)
<agy> sommer: np - pls let me know what issues you find
<bimberi> wallan: Try going to https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Elisa now :)
<bimberi> wallan: By 'becomes your content' I meant that you replace what's on it with your page.  No need though.  What you've done is great imo.  I've just made 'Elisa' redirect to it instead.
<wallan> bimberi: thanks, the redirect works. ElisaMediaCenter is a better page name than just Elisa
<bimberi> wallan: Indeed. np :)
<wallan> :)
#ubuntu-doc 2008-06-28
<nickrud> I'm seeing a lot of corruption (well, on three pages so far) of corrupted code blocks. Is this a result of the upgrade to 1.6?
<Flannel> nickrud: Its whenever theres a {{{ or }}} without a space behind/infront of it
<Flannel> {{{X and X}}} don't work anymore
<Flannel> nickrud: So yes, its a result of the upgrade
<Flannel> but not data corruption, just parser changes
<nickrud> ok. I'm hitting a few of the ones that I link to often, and the package management ones. Luckily, it looks like most people were using {{{ and }}} correctly
<nickrud> Flannel and the spaces aren't enough for code blocks, the code has to be on lines by themselves
<Flannel> nickrud: Really? Thats not what was previously reported.  Interesting
<nickrud> yeah, {{{ Test
<nickrud> }}} test comes out ast
<nickrud> {{{ Test }}}
<Flannel> nickrud: Well, I have to say I'm not impressed by openID if it means I have to have javascript enabled
<nickrud> hey, aren't you on the web2.0 bandwagon?
<Flannel> Rounded corners are the worst thing to come to the web since... well... ever.
<Flannel> Animated gifs are better than rounded corners
<Flannel> Sigh.  Well, I guess I won't be doing any more editing of the wiki.  What are text browsers supposed to do?
<nickrud> punt
<nickrud> I love rounded corners, and all that css zen garden stuff.
<Flannel> nickrud: CSS is good.  "Round Corners" are just a poster child of two point oh
<Flannel> I suppose I should've just said sites that don't work without javascript
<nickrud> yeah, I've given up on that. When I started using google analytics I reached the tipping point
<Flannel> I think by requiring open ID for the wiki, we've alienated a third of the browsers in the repos
<Flannel> Not only that, but I think if I wanted to allow it, I'd have to enable JS on ubuntu.com, since its h.u.c or w.u.c, which is something I won't do.
 * Old_Soldier reads up and thinks animated gifs should make a comeback. I particularly like the one of barney the dinosaur being decapitated
<nickrud> you like animated gifs? try usmission.org
<Old_Soldier> lol nick i was just being silly. omg animated .gifs bring back memories of the most horrid websites
<Flannel> Old_Soldier: I still claim two point oh is worse.  Many websites dont have content until you enable JS
<Old_Soldier> thats not cool, cramming JS down peoples throats
<nickrud> Old_Soldier figured, I was hoping to pop an eyeball
<Old_Soldier> lol nickrud  i hang out in a channel with compiledkernel, i rarely take link suggestions
<nickrud> that one qualifies as horrid, maybe not 'most' but definitely horrid. A guy I knew did that back in something like 98, hasn't changed
<l3on> mdke: are you there?
<mdke> l3on: (In case I'm not around at the moment, please provide a bit of information about what you want and I will respond when I get back)
<l3on> mdke, it's important...
<l3on> mdke: ?
<l3on> ping
<mdke> l3on: hi
<mdke> l3on: ok, I can't hang around long. That's why my client has that auto-response suggesting that you ask the question so that I can respond when I'm around.
<mdke> l3on: please send me an email if it's important
<l3on> mdke: still there?
#ubuntu-doc 2008-06-29
<brunodurand> hello
#ubuntu-doc 2009-06-22
<j1mc> mdke: are you around?
<j1mc> mdke: I wanted to see about your availability for one of the upcoming team meeting dates. Are there any that you would be able to attend?
<j1mc> mdke: here's the url to my posting to the ML. https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2009-June/013274.html
<j1mc> if you could let us know of your availability for any of the dates via the doodle link, that would be great.  thanks.
<j1mc> Right now, this Saturday, 6/27, at 1:00pm Chicago Time (6pm London time) is looking most likely.
<nhandler> Is there a reason we still have CIA-26 in here? Isn't that from when we used SVN?
#ubuntu-doc 2009-06-23
<DougieRichardson> *
 * DougieRichardson says hi all
<shaunm> nixternal: ping
<nixternal> yo yo shaunm
<shaunm> nixternal: I was wondering if we could get a cross-desktop irc meeting together some time
<shaunm> me, you, whoever else
<shaunm> see what everybody's working on and where we might be able to share or standardize
<nixternal> shaunm: ya, I will toss that around with the kde fellahs and see what we can come up with
<nhandler> mdke: Is there a reason we still have CIA-26 in here? Isn't that from we we still used SVN?
#ubuntu-doc 2009-06-24
<jmburgess> hello everybody
<nhandler> Hello jmburgess
<jmburgess> how are you doing nhandler?
<nhandler> jmburgess: Ok, you?
<jmburgess> good, workin on the wiki
#ubuntu-doc 2009-06-25
<nhandler> What tag did we decide on using for tiny bugs? bitesize?
<nhandler> Yep, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/WhereToStart
<nhandler> What happened to the License wiki page that is linked to in the footer on wiki.ubuntu.com?
<j1mc> nhandler: i see a "legal" link.
<j1mc> but don't see one for a CC license
<Saj0577> anyone in here from the doc team and available to talk quickly?
<cody-somerville> speak
<cody-somerville> :)
<cody-somerville> Just say what you wanna say
<Saj0577> okay
<Saj0577> i edited a wiki page that had the notice at the top saying it needed expandind can i just remove it once expanded?
<cody-somerville> If you feel its appropriate, yes.
<Saj0577> okay cheers just though would check.
<cody-somerville> best to ask for forgiveness than for permission ;]
<Saj0577> why you think that?
<cody-somerville> Saj0577, Anything you do on the wiki can be reverted
<cody-somerville> so if you make a mistake, its not a big deal
<Saj0577> alright just dont want to cause loads of work for others
<adamw> hi, ubuntu folks. can someone do a quick sanity check for me here? as far as I can tell, the ubuntu wiki has no license specific to it, so it's licensed under the terms at http://www.ubuntu.com/legal - is that right, or am I missing something?
<Saj0577> adamw i think thats right but not 100%. its under CC license i THINK
<adamw> Saj0577: well i sort of figured it probably would be, but i can't find such an attribution anywhere. do you know where to look?
<Saj0577> 2mins i will have a look around for you
<adamw> thanks a lot
<adamw> i saw for e.g. the edubuntu wiki has a little license boxout at the bottom of each page, which is what i'd expect. but the main ubuntu one doesn't seem to.
<Saj0577> I think that legal page is correct why is there a specifc reason your asking or something u want to do with the documents?
<adamw> well, just thinking of using some content from the ubuntu wiki, but that would require permission from canonical, according to that license.
<adamw> just wanted to make sure i wasn't missing something that says it's OPL or CC or GFDL or something.
<Saj0577> what you looking to use it on/for?
<adamw> the fedora wiki. :) i'm the adamw who works for red hat, we're talking about improving our pages on what to look for when reporting bugs in certain apps
<adamw> someone pointed out ubuntu wiki has some great pages on that - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingProcedures
<adamw> so I thought, well, there's no point duplicating all that work, we may as well just re-use your stuff...but if it's not under an 'open' license we can't, really, we'll have to re-do it ourselves
<Saj0577> yeah. I would contact Can... though because if you ask there may not be a problem but i would not bother just copying not worth the possible hassle
<adamw> yeah, exactly. i might try and find somewhere appropriate to ask if there's a particular reason it's not under a share-able license
<adamw> thanks for checking my sanity on this one :)
<Saj0577> its fine. I think its not on a shared license because some people would just copy it all and claim it which is annoying for people who put in alot of hardwork (i sat doing the pages right now lol and i know i would be annoyed if someone claimed it all as there own lol)
<adamw> sure, i don't want to argue about the reasons, just wanted to make sure whether or not i was right on the facts. thanks again
<Saj0577> adamw yeah sure did not mean any offence or any of that ;)
<j1mc> adamw: someone else just noticed today that the license was missing from the footer.
<j1mc> i believe that the wiki is licensed as creative commons, but i don't recall the creative commons license type
<j1mc> i'll send a note out to the documentation team mailing list.
<adamw> j1mc: ah, i see - so it could be just a bug?
<dsas_> cc-by-sa 3
<dsas_> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/License
<dsas_> The license is linked from the footer. Which theme are you using?
<adamw> i see the footer now
<adamw> i didn't see it earlier when i was asking :)
<adamw> looks like someone's fixed it
<adamw> no theme change, i'm not logged in, so i'm getting the default view any visitor gets
<adamw> h, actually
<adamw> different wiki
<Saj0577> note:help.ubuntu.com and wiki.ubuntu.com may hae different licenses
<adamw> i'm talking wiki.ubuntu.com , not help.ubuntu.com
<adamw> yeah
<adamw> the specific page in question is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingProcedures
<j1mc> dsas_: i don't see the link in the footer, either.
<j1mc> i checked it while both logged in, and logged out
<dsas_> what do you see in the footer?
<Saj0577> when you go to edit it dont you agree to a license or something j1mc?
<j1mc> line 1: Â© 2008 Canonical Ltd. Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Edubuntu, Xubuntu and Canonical are registered trademarks of Canonical Ltd.
<j1mc> line 2: Feedback â Legal â Credits â Site Map â Powered By the MoinMoin Wiki Engine
<j1mc> Legal just goes to Canonical's legal page. Not very specific
<adamw> Saj0577: yeah, i was thinking of trying to sign in to make an edit and see what it says
<Saj0577> think it asks you to agree to the license before saving so check the license :) i tried did not show the license but it did when i was editing a page earlier :S
<dsas_> j1mc: Are you looking at wiki.ubuntu.com or help.ubuntu.com/community ?
<j1mc> dsas_: wiki.ubuntu.com
<j1mc> I just sent a note to the doc team ML
<j1mc> it's weird that this topic has come up 2x on the same day
<dsas_> j1mc: Ah, uhm, there is  no wiki wide license for that wiki
<j1mc> dsas_: really?
<dsas_> j1mc: Pretty sure that's the case.
<j1mc> can you explain further?
<dsas_> mdke tried to get it resolved once but found it more productive to drop that and just get h.u.c licensed properly
<dsas_> There were more  people object to relicensing w.u.c
<dsas_> as far as my memory serves
<j1mc> so . . . what license covers w.u.c
<j1mc> gpl?
<dsas_> none. legally speaking each page is copyrighted by it's author I believe.
<dsas_> unless stated otherwise.
<j1mc> wtf
<Saj0577> that dont seem too logical
<dsas_> mdke will likely remember and know better than I though
<j1mc> ok - well, i put the note out to the ML. we'll see what people say
<j1mc> what if someone forgets to indicate what license they've selected for their content?
<j1mc> that's so lame
<dsas_> well, I think most people aren't going to object if you do something with the content. Most of the content on there should just be feature specifications, team organisation etc
<dsas_> documentation belongs on help.ubuntu.com/community which is licensed.
#ubuntu-doc 2009-06-26
<j1mc> hi all
<Saj0577> hi jlmc
<shaunm> j1mc: hey
<j1mc> hi all
<j1mc> shaunm: i'm going through some DITA stuff, just checking out sample files. It's not no-brainer kind of stuff.
<shaunm> j1mc: have you talked to nixternal lately?
<j1mc> shaunm: he sent me a message today - saying that you and paul were interested in getting people together in august
<j1mc> he had to run, though, so we didn't get to talk about it.
<shaunm> j1mc: yeah, so I've gotten a surprisingly decent amount of interest
<j1mc> cool - what kind of interest?
<shaunm> so what I'm proposing is bringing maybe 10 people to champaign august 21-23
<j1mc> i think i would be free then.
<j1mc> so you're getting interest from KDE folks?
<shaunm> well, nexternal was interested
<shaunm> who else should I be talking to from KDE?
<shaunm> I talked to the fedora doc team.  there was interest there
<j1mc> oh, no . . . i'm really not sure.  ah, ok. that's what i was wanting to know about.
<shaunm> and I talked to romanofski, who does the gimp help
<j1mc> what other groups are interested
<j1mc> cool
<j1mc> i'm just getting into it, but the DITA stuff . . .  it seems pretty complex.
<shaunm> who else should I be talking to?  I thought about opensuse, but I don't know how to get in touch with them
<j1mc> you know... i think i looked up who packaged DITA for opensuse. maybe that would be someone to start with if we can't find anyone via normal means.
<j1mc> opensuse's installation of DITA uses the windows scripts for the sample files.
<j1mc> runbuild.bat
<j1mc> [echo]....
<j1mc> shaunm: maybe get in touch with this woman? http://lizards.opensuse.org/2009/06/18/open-source-xml-editor-in-sight/
<j1mc> hi adamw
<j1mc> shaunm: this guy seems to be a core doc guy with the opensuse doc team: http://en.opensuse.org/User:Keichwa
<j1mc> i think all of these folk live in foreign lands, though.
<j1mc> http://en.opensuse.org/Documentation_Team#Who_We_Are
<ubu-noob> Anyone here to help with a question about the Ubiquity installer slideshow?
<j1mc> hi ubu-noob ... sorry, i'm not involved with that project.  Feel free to just ask your question, though.
<j1mc> If someone is around to answer, they will. :)
<ubu-noob> j1mc: thanks, here it goes
<ubu-noob> I was talking to one of the devs on it
<ubu-noob> and he feels the slides should be kept to a small size - in terms of screeen real estate
<ubu-noob> I was wondering why the slides can't be larger
<ubu-noob> He says it's because the slideshow should work on smaller screens, like netbooks
<ubu-noob> But they are designing the slides in html/css
<ubu-noob> so I can't see why you can't use CSS to create a slide style for larger screens, and one for smaller
<ubu-noob> I myself use the Alternate installer, so I don't even know if the Ubiquity installer itself occupies only a tiny bit of screen real estate
<j1mc> ubu-noob: sorry i can't help . . . i actually have to go, too.
<j1mc> they're closing the coffee shop.
<j1mc> have a good night. :)
<ubu-noob> j1mc: goodnight
<ubu-noob> So, anyone else up to answering my question?
<ubu-noob> Actually, nevermind, I think I found the answer
<ubu-noob> the Ubiquity installer itself appears in a small window, which they are not wanting to make larger
<ubu-noob> so that it will still display well on smaller screens like netbooks
<ubu-noob> that's why even though the slideshow could appear larger
<ubu-noob> it can't unless the installer spawns a second window
<ubu-noob> or launches firefox, and opens the slideshow that way
<adamw> dsas: i saw your comments on my earlier question, thanks. one further question - you said most important stuff should be on help. not wiki. , does that mean the Debugging Procedures pages I was actually interested in should more properly be on help. ?
<Kangarooo> Hello. I Have big question and long time im having problem with this. 1/2 year. How to start programming in RoR Netbeans on Ubuntu and install required packages from Canonical maintained packeges.? https://answers.launchpad.net/netbeans/+question/75371
* nhandler changed the topic of #ubuntu-doc to: Ubuntu Documentation Team - visit https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam to contribute | Meeting June 21, 2009 at 18:00 UTC in #ubuntu-doc | Get involved! http://www.mdke.org/?p=67 | Channel log at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/ | Please observe the Ubuntu Code of Conduct - http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct
<bcurtiswx> this is the documentation team channel, right?
<nhandler> Yes bcurtiswx
<bcurtiswx> hi nathan,  bug #392586 is a bug in the sense of the context its used for documentation.. but im not sure if its _really_ a bug
<ubot4> Launchpad bug 392586 in ubuntu-restricted-extras "broken link in documentation" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/392586
<bcurtiswx> if you feel it is, what team should it be assigned to?
<bcurtiswx> ubuntu-core-doc?
<nhandler> You should almost never assign someone else to a bug bcurtiswx
 * nhandler goes to look at the bug
<bcurtiswx> nhandler: sorry i meant subscribe
<nhandler> bcurtiswx: I'll take care of it now ;)
<bcurtiswx> nhandler: ok
<bcurtiswx> nhandler: may i PM you?
<nhandler> Sure bcurtiswx
<dsas> adamw: Hmm, probably not. It's not end-user help.
<primate> hi
<nhandler> Hello primate
<primate> i'm testing a web irc client through a DSi
<primate> and I thought it wouldn't work
#ubuntu-doc 2009-06-27
<gcleric> !ubot
<ubot4> Factoid 'ubot' not found
<gcleric> !status
<ubot4> Factoid 'status' not found
<jmburgess> hey i have a question guys, I am working on reorgainzing the Backup section and to try and move a page should I just copy paste the content and then edit from there, or should i just link to it and have an admin rename/move the page?
<j1mc> hi all
<j1mc> hi philbull
<philbull> hey j1mc
<philbull> i've come prepared!
<j1mc> :)
<technomensch> can somone ping via via pm when we get started, I'll be by the machine but afk for a few min.....
<j1mc> technomensch: sure thing
<j1mc> ok... who all is here?  :)
<BrunoXLambert> i am
<j1mc> hi BrunoXLambert
<BrunoXLambert> hi
 * philbull is here
<j1mc> mwcrowley: you around?
<mwcrowley> yes
<j1mc> DougieRichardson: ? :-)
<technomensch> phil, glad u could make it
<philbull> hey technomensch
<mwcrowley> present
<j1mc> dinda: ? you around?
<j1mc> dsas_: ? :)
<technomensch> dougie and matt haven't spoken up yet....not sure if they are @ keyboard yet
<j1mc> i sent an email to mdke earlier in the week. he's been swamped w/ work lately.
<technomensch> before we get started, did everyone get my link to review the "inprogress" version of the wiki playbook on google docs?
<j1mc> technomensch: i received it, but haven't haven't reviewed it yet, sorry.
<j1mc> Shall we go ahead and get started?  I'm sure DougieRichardson can read-up when he gets to the keyboard.
<j1mc> Meeting Agenda is up at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/MeetingAgenda
<technomensch> j1,  I'm trying to recall.  whats your wiki id?
<j1mc> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/j1mc
<technomensch> ah.......
<j1mc> ok, i know it's a small group here today, but we can still cover some items.
<j1mc> we'll try to be brief.
<philbull> he he, no chance
<j1mc> first - is anyone here new to the group?
<mwcrowley> I'm new
<j1mc> hi mwcrowley
<mwcrowley> hi all
<j1mc> care to briefly introduce yourself?
<technomensch> wait
<technomensch> j1
<technomensch> want to start the meeting bot?
<BrunoXLambert> I am new there
<minderaser> I'm new as well
<j1mc> technomensch: let's not worry aboutit.
<philbull> welcome, guys!
<j1mc> if you are new... welcome. :)
<j1mc> please just go ahead and introduce yourself in a sentence or two. :)
<mwcrowley> brief intro, I started using debian about five years ago, switched to Ubuntu on the desktop and I have some writing skills.  So I'd like to find a place where I can give back.
<j1mc> coolness.
<j1mc> others?  don't be shy. :)
<BrunoXLambert> I'm usung ubuntu since breezy. working at Revolution Linux with stgraber. I'm a support and trainnign guy
<j1mc> awesome. :)
<minderaser> My real name is Mark Strawser, I live in central PA and have been using Linux for about 10 years, non-continuously. So far I've just been getting my feet wet changing CategoryCleanups to Tags
<j1mc> great. :)
<avi1> I'm Avi. I've switched into professional technical writing from public relations, and am excited to be a contributor to the new Karmic installation guide. I'm a relative linux newbie, but hope to bring the "average user" experience to the table. Wrote an installation guide to Intrepid and updated the Wubi wiki.
<j1mc> cool... welcome, avi1
 * DougieRichardson waves to j1mc - kids needed feeding
<j1mc> DougieRichardson: o/
<missaugustina> I'm Augustina! I've been active on the list but this is my first meeting.
<technomensch> welcome
<j1mc> great! lots of new people.
<technomensch> glad you could make it
<j1mc> anyone else?
 * DougieRichardson o/
<technomensch> missaugstina, don't worry, this is only the second meeting we've had within the last few months.....
<j1mc> someone had mentioned that they wanted to know different ways people could get involved w/ the project.
<j1mc> some info is here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Organization
<j1mc> but chances are, if you're at this meeting, you're already familiar with some of what we do.
<j1mc> but you can get involved through the system documentation, work on the wiki, and even work on translations.
<technomensch> or any of the many guides such as the server guide
<j1mc> working on the documentation is a good way to build writing skills, learn some xml and wiki markup, and also learn about the ubuntu toolchain (launchpad, bzr, etc.)
<j1mc> did anyone have any particular questions for now?
<technomensch> j1, I propose a secondary meeting to educate on launchpad and bzr....etc...., maybe a mini-class
<shankhs> hi
<mwcrowley> mini-class would be good
<DougieRichardson> what about the one from the openweek?
<j1mc> technomensch: cool - we had an ubuntu open week session that covered a lot of stuff from bzr and launchpad.
<j1mc> DougieRichardson: right
<BrunoXLambert> I'm in for a mini-class
<mwcrowley> any suggestions for a best first step.  Are there any areas that need immediate help?
<technomensch> the problem with open week, are the international times
<DougieRichardson> technomensch: doesn't stop us reusing the material though ;-)
<j1mc> here's a log of our session on bzr: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/openweekJaunty/DocsBzr
<j1mc> and here's the log of the session on docbook: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/openweekJaunty/DocsDocbook
<technomensch> those are good enough for me :)
<j1mc> emmajane did a good job with the docbook, and the bzr session was really good, too.
<j1mc> anything else for now?
 * DougieRichardson shakes head
<mwcrowley> those links are a good place to start.
<shaunm> j1mc: sorry, are you going through an agenda?
<philbull> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/MeetingAgenda
<j1mc> shaunm: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/MeetingAgenda
<j1mc> agenda ^^
<shaunm> gracias
<j1mc> on to "Ye Olde Business"
<j1mc> someone put up, "How best to collaborate with translators"
<j1mc> but I think that might be a meeting topic on its own.
<j1mc> or, worthy of a meeting on its own... thoughts?
<DougieRichardson> I wasn't aware there were any issues with translations at the moment?
<philbull> if no-one has any specific issues we should move on
 * DougieRichardson nods
<j1mc> Maybe it would be better to talk about this when Milo or some of the other translation folks are present.
<j1mc> yeah
<j1mc> DougieRichardson: anything on the Learning Initiative?
<DougieRichardson> j1mc: not really no, they're still quite focussed on structure
<DougieRichardson> they also keep holding meetings at really inconvenient times!
<j1mc> :)  "structure" being the documentation structure, or . . . something else?
<DougieRichardson> I think we need to look at the project and see how it suits us
<philbull> do you have any links?
<DougieRichardson> j1mc: team structure
<philbull> I'm not familiar with this
<DougieRichardson> philbull: yes wait one
<DougieRichardson> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning
<DougieRichardson> sabdfl is very enthusiastic
<DougieRichardson> initially it looked to integrate with the idea of classrooms/tutorials and so on quite well, its in Moodle
<technomensch> I've been wanting to learn moodle, so I wouldn't mind getting involved with that
<j1mc> so you are the doc team liason for the project?  i suppose they'll let us know where they need help, or are they looking for us to be more active participants?
<DougieRichardson> Matthew and I had a long chat with them, I offered to liase between the to initatives and there are some voices in canonical that are quite keen on the idea
<DougieRichardson> j1mc:they want active participation
<philbull> any word on integration with the docs?
<missaugustina> I'm particularly interested in helping out with the Developer Documentation/tutorials since there seems to be a lack of it
<philbull> training material goes alongside help resources
<DougieRichardson> philbull: in what way?
<philbull> well, via h.u.c or via links in Yelp?
<DougieRichardson> I envisaged it as being a resource to train our members
<DougieRichardson> there's no reason not to be able to integrate it in some way in that respect.
<philbull> I was thinking more to do with the "How to use Ubuntu" bit
<philbull> (i.e. for users)
<DougieRichardson> I know, mdke was quite concerned with duplication of effort
 * j1mc nods
<philbull> there are lots of user assistance type projects floating around ubuntu at the moment
<DougieRichardson> If I'm honest, I think the project might be a little ambitious and I have concerns about that section
<philbull> we perhaps need to communicate with other initiatives more
<j1mc> missaugustina: have you seen the MOTU/GettingStarted wiki documentation?
<j1mc> missaugustina: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/GettingStarted
<DougieRichardson> motu are also involved in this initiative, although I haven't heard anything from them
<j1mc> DougieRichardson: i had hear a little about the learning team, but didn't get the scope of what they were doing, so i'm glad you brought this up.
<technomensch> query:  would these be using the playbooks we're working on?
<DougieRichardson> technomensch: possibly
<j1mc> missaugustina: you may also want to touch base with Nathan Handler (nhandler), as he has been doing some work on developer documentation.
<DougieRichardson> The idea is a fair one - a centralised training resource.  The execution, not so sure.  This isn't just crossover with us but with Desktop Training course (which I and I know a few others here have worked on).
<technomensch> that would be quite an ambitious project
<DougieRichardson> I have worries
<technomensch> I thiink that would be an understatement doug
<j1mc> it looks like i need to read through their meeting logs and mailing list to see what they're up to.
<DougieRichardson> 1. there's a heavy forums influence on the project
<DougieRichardson> 2. it duplicates, or has the potential to duplicate our efforts
<DougieRichardson> 3. moodle / docbook integration needs work
<philbull> DocBook? Why DocBook?
<DougieRichardson> I think really, we  need to read over all their logs and discuss it on list
<j1mc> can we decide on any action items concerning this for now?
<DougieRichardson> Does anyone have any concerns?
<philbull> Yep, I'd like to discuss this more on the list
<DougieRichardson> philbull: because we use docbook and they use moodle
<j1mc> philbull: yeah, same here.
<DougieRichardson> philbull: ^-^
<philbull> DougieRichardson: Ah, gotcha
<philbull> OK, next item?
<j1mc> sure
<j1mc> that's you, phil: "introducing rigorous planning as a requirement..."
<technomensch> talk about a mouthful
<philbull> Yes. I think that we should start planning things properly before we start writing them
<technomensch> second
<avi1> Regarding the issue of Docbook and Moodle, would this be a reason to try to get multiple teams on DITA (which we will discuss later, I know) so that we can maximize reusable content.
<philbull> I don't think that we do that enough at the moment
<avi1> including reusable content b/w teams
<DougieRichardson> we need to discuss DITA seperately.
<avi1> ok, just keep this in mind for that discussion
<philbull> I'm using the Installation Guide as a bit of a test run for more intensive planning/design
<j1mc> philbull: do you have any references that you can point us to for what you had in mind about doc planning?
<philbull> Well, Lynda's stuff from WOSCON is useful
<philbull> I should post it somewhere
<j1mc> that would be helpful
<philbull> It doesn't have to be anything fancy
<philbull> Just as long as we make sure that what we're writing is suitable and useful for our users...
<philbull> ...before we write it.
<DougieRichardson> are we talking about managing resources or defining prior to encoding?
<philbull> For example, most of the topics in the system docs were added because they seemed like a good idea to the author
<technomensch> in otherwords, outlining and brainstorming, and maybe psydocoding....
<philbull> Pretty much. We should have a structure and a design brief in place before we produce any content
<philbull> Look at the system docs
<DougieRichardson> maybe we need to envisage a more object approach to help.  There should then be an help for each action available on the desktop.
<philbull> "Adding, Removing and Updating Applications" => "What are restricted and non-free software?"
<philbull> Does anyone care about that topic? Has anyone ever read it?
<technomensch> and why would it be under that section to begin with....
<philbull> DougieRichardson: do you mean a task-based approach?
<DougieRichardson> philbull: yes, but more structured and defined
<DougieRichardson> philbull: this would integrate with DITA and building simple tools (because a standard format could be used)
<DougieRichardson> it could also mean a form of error checking.
 * DougieRichardson draws breath and surveys the silence
<j1mc> :)
<philbull> sorry, had to get the washing in!
<philbull> back now
<technomensch> bueller?  bueller?
<philbull> DougieRichardson: I'm interested in doing lots more user testing
<avi1> I'm certainly in favor of topic-based authoring, as opposed to menu-based
<philbull> we should use this to inform the way we write
<j1mc> philbull: regarding your 'restricted & non-free' comment, i have had new users who think that 'non-free' means that they have to pay for the software.
<DougieRichardson> philbull: me to but we need to accept that if its visible, we need to explain it
<philbull> not necessarily
<DougieRichardson> free is the most misunderstood word in OSS
<philbull> some things are obvious
<philbull> some things, people don't care about
<mwcrowley> try out the docs on non linux users in the family
<philbull> mwcrowley: exactly
<DougieRichardson> I wish RMS had chosen to use something else
<j1mc> philbull: it sounds like you have a decent idea of what you had in mind with regards to planning... were you thinking of putting those notes up on the wiki?
<j1mc> that would probably be helpful.
<DougieRichardson> one other thing on planning
<philbull> j1mc: yes, will do
<DougieRichardson> we should make a better appreciation of timing
<philbull> DougieRichardson: how so?
<technomensch> are you thinking about this planning just for system docs and guides, or the wiki itself?
<dsas_> describing everything is the approach taken in the gnome manuals, that are going to be rewritten.
<j1mc> technomensch: good question
<DougieRichardson> like the old thirds (planning) to one third (execution) idea.  Otherwise we spend cycles discussing changes and not implementing
<j1mc> shaunm: any comment on dsas_'s note above?
<DougieRichardson> dsas_:describing != documenting, even if its just a pointer to another area, a user should never not know what the button they are looking at does.
<philbull> DougieRichardson: I'm not convinced that users will actually read that sort of documentation
<philbull> they *should*, perhaps...
<philbull> but I don't think that they will
<j1mc> i've looked at apple's docs... they mostly just have screenshots with arrows pointing to the different buttons. :)
<j1mc> but that's apple for you. :)
<avi1> This is where a style guide would be useful. Perhaps the installation style guide to be created can become a more general style guide.
<DougieRichardson> apple only does it one way though
<philbull> the IG style guide should *not* be a general style guide
<philbull> there are other styleguide efforts going on
<philbull> see http://writingopensource.com/node/14
<technomensch> here's a question.....this "style guide"......
<j1mc> avi1: you make a decent point, though, in that this is a style consideration.
<technomensch> are we talking about "writing styles" such as "how to refer to certain things that have a variety of different terms?"
<j1mc> we're kind of getting off topic, though...
<technomensch> there is style guide, installation guide, wiki guide
<technomensch> too many guides in the kitchen
<philbull> technomensch: see my link above
<philbull> the WOS styleguide should be able to solve this problem
<philbull> but it's not written yet
<technomensch> it probably would be a big help in my writing of the playbook
<technomensch> there are several things I keep flip-flopping about what to present, and how to present it
<j1mc> given that we've been here for an hour now, can we table the style discussion for now?
<j1mc> i guess it's kind of its own animal
<j1mc> philbull: you'll put your planning notes up on the wiki?
<shaunm> j1mc: sorry, I'm in an out, working on build stuff.  asking for a comment on gnome's approach of describing everything?
<philbull> j1mc: agreed
<j1mc> shaunm: yeah - what about it didn't work?
<shaunm> I think there's general agreement in the gnome docs community that our docs suck
<shaunm> j1mc: it's just not useful
<shaunm> everything gets described, but no real questions get answered
<j1mc> thanks, shaunm
<j1mc> moving on for now, then... wiki playbook & Hardware Database Documentation Connectivity
<philbull> j1mc: shall we push on?
<technomensch> well, the wiki playbook has kinda weaved its way into multiple items from this meeting, so I guess it's fairly appropriate
<technomensch> has everyone at least gotten my link to view it through google docs?
<j1mc> technomensch: can you approve my access?
<j1mc> check your inbox
<philbull> technomensch: I don't seem to have one
<j1mc> philbull: check the wiki
<j1mc> there's a link from the meeting agenda
<technomensch> done
<technomensch> access granted
<philbull> OK, thanks. I've requested access
 * DougieRichardson clicky clicky
<j1mc> technomensch: this looks really good. :)
<technomensch> done
<technomensch> thanks....still needs some work
<technomensch> and I really need to fine tune a way to showcase how to "categorize" new and existing articles
<j1mc> i like how it includes both content considerations and syntax help on one page so that everything is available in one spot.
<technomensch> that was the plan....
<DougieRichardson> I like that
<technomensch> I am trying to do away with the multiple pages....
<philbull> awesome, nice work technomensch
<technomensch> when it goes into a PDF, I'll try to add bookmarks to each section
<DougieRichardson> split it
<technomensch> how so dougie?
<j1mc> so that the document link doesn't get lost after the meeting agenda changes: http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dfm5m8jn_15gx7ttgd3&invite=
<DougieRichardson> one for those who want to make a change (the first time occasional user)
<DougieRichardson> one for those getting more regularly involved.
<technomensch> I think that those wanting to look for a specific method should be able to use the "Find' in either pdf or odt
<j1mc> i don't know... i think that having it all together might be more helpful.
<DougieRichardson> just my 0.05
<technomensch> that is my thinking j1
<technomensch> in actuality, this whole playbook comes from my frustration during MY work on the wiki
<DougieRichardson> if there's difficulty in condensing it to a single sheet.
<technomensch> thinking of how I'd like to see the docs
<technomensch> well, how about this dougie?
<technomensch> one cheatsheet for formatting wiki docs
<technomensch> and one cheat sheet for wiki structure, like the tags, creating new pages
<j1mc> DougieRichardson: ok.  if the size of the doc gets cumbersome... then, yeah, split it up.
<technomensch> categorizing, etc....
<technomensch> would this be acceptable for everyone?
<DougieRichardson> yeah that seems about right Marc
<minderaser> technomensch, I've requested access to the playbook but can't get it yet
<j1mc> BrunoXLambert: did you get a look at the file?
<j1mc> mwcrowley: what about you?  :)
<minderaser> technomensch, working now, thanks
<technomensch> just approved 2 more
<technomensch> I like this.  using google docs for this type of collaboration does actually make sense
<j1mc> technomensch: if people have comments or suggestions, should they just post them to the mailing list?
<technomensch> yes, please.
<technomensch> well, jim, you phil, and dougie have been collaborator access
<j1mc> ok... for anyone who wasn't able to attend today, pls request access to the google doc, and post any comments or suggestions.
<technomensch> so if you need to make a glaring change, feel free
<j1mc> technomensch: thanks
<technomensch> everyone else post to the mailing list
<DougieRichardson> cheers Marc, I'll probably mail you though ;-)
<BrunoXLambert> j1mc, asked access for it now
<j1mc> technomensch: on to the Hardware Database topic?
<technomensch> well, it's kinda self explainatory.  this was more just to keep everyone in the loop
<j1mc> BrunoXLambert: cool. as a new member of the team, please let us know if this is helpful, or if you find that you still need help with some items
<technomensch> yes, definitely
<technomensch> it would be good to get a fresh perspective
 * DougieRichardson really likes Dropbox
<j1mc> for future reference, here's the link to the speck about the hardware database topic: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/specs/KernelKarmicHWdbWorkshop
<j1mc> ok... on to new business?
<technomensch> well
<technomensch> there is one item
<j1mc> ok
<technomensch> about that
<technomensch> and that is the part where they say they don't have enough manpower
<technomensch> to create a web front end once the api is available
<technomensch> if we have a good webdesigner, it might be nice to have something we can show/propose to them
<technomensch> kinda get a headstart on it
<DougieRichardson> we could if someone would upload the front page...
 * DougieRichardson good humoured dig at mdke
<DougieRichardson> What is the proposed API
<dsas_> technomensch: Might be worth asking on ubuntu-website to get a web front end person in
<technomensch> ok, thanks for the suggestion.
<technomensch> great idea
<DougieRichardson> dsas_ technomensch I agree - I know I haven't the time
<technomensch> neither do I.
<technomensch> even if I did have the skillz
<j1mc> ok... anything else on this for now? do we have any action-item take-aways for this?
<j1mc> anything to be done?
<DougieRichardson> not for now
<j1mc> ok - technomensch, i guess you'll keep us updated if things change?
<technomensch> ::nod::
<j1mc> ok... next topic then
<j1mc> DITA and Mallard
<j1mc> I wish that mdke and dinda were able to make this meeting
<j1mc> but i'll just jump into a quick mention of DITA
<j1mc> as a reference, here are a couple of links about the technical side of DITA:
<j1mc> the architectural specification: http://docs.oasis-open.org/dita/v1.1/OS/archspec/archspec.html
<j1mc> the language specification: http://docs.oasis-open.org/dita/v1.1/CS01/langspec/ditaref-type.html
<j1mc> i've been looking those over, and there's a lot to digest.
<j1mc> but basically... why would we consider using DITA?
<j1mc> DITA has a lot of uptake in the professional tech writing community, it's an open source project, and it allows for content re-use and conditional text.
<j1mc> conditional text being... you can create one document and include text specific to kubuntu, ubuntu, and xubuntu... and then generate flavor-specific docs from that one doc set.
<j1mc> (if that makes sense)
<j1mc> thing is... it's a new toolchain (using ANT build files...), no other distros use it currently...
 * DougieRichardson nods
<dsas_> aren't we stuck with using whatever yelp supports?
<j1mc> would introduce an additional syntax for new users to learn.
<j1mc> dsas_: well, the yelp developer is in on this meeting now (shaunm)
<DougieRichardson> dsas_ dita can be used to generate docbook
<j1mc> he knows about it
<j1mc> so . . . i have an interest in it, and dinda has expressed an interest in it, but i'm not sure how feasible it is for this release.  it's not even packaged in ubuntu yet
<DougieRichardson> Its not feasible for Karmic.
<j1mc> yeah
<DougieRichardson> It is a good idea however and should probably be something we invest time in
<j1mc> but ... with regards to the Learning Team... being able to share content across the official docs, the learning team, and the training team (canonical training stuff...)
<j1mc> that would be helpful.
<DougieRichardson> I read the specs (thanks Jim), we should consider investigating this more thouroughly
<shaunm> I started looking into what it would take to do dita->mallard, which I think would give a more faithful representation of dita than dita->docbook
<shaunm> but I'm pressed for time, and I can't make that a top priority right now
<j1mc> shaunm: understood.  (focus!) :-)
<shaunm> heh
<DougieRichardson> shaunm: mallard information seems a little, sparse at the moment - what time frame are you guys working to
<j1mc> ok... so... for this release, i'll just see about getting it packaged into ubuntu
<j1mc> "it" being DITA
<DougieRichardson> j1mc: packaging it isn't a major issue
<shaunm> so if you really want to pursue dita in yelp, there are three possible approaches: dita->docbook, dita->mallard, or dita support directly in yelp
<shaunm> DougieRichardson: the spec isn't fully fleshed out, but I don't consider the existing functionality at all sparse
<j1mc> philbull: any comments on DITA for now?
<DougieRichardson> shaunm: don't take offense, from Gnome.org it does
<shaunm> I know j1mc has asked about profiling.  what else are people interested in that isn't there?
<shaunm> DougieRichardson: wasn't offended
<j1mc> shaunm: "profiling"? could you explain a bit more about that?
<philbull> j1mc: not from me yet
<shaunm> just wondering what things people need
<shaunm> j1mc: sorry, profiling == conditional processing
<shaunm> no idea why people call it profiling, but they do
<j1mc> :)
<shaunm> probably something to do with tailoring a document to different profiles or something
<j1mc> ok... seeing as we're already kind of doing it, we'll officially move on to discussing Mallard
<shaunm> oh sorry, didn't mean to hijack the conversation
<j1mc> here's a link the language specification for it: http://www.gnome.org/~shaunm/mallard/spec.html
<j1mc> np
<philbull> I had some notes, but to save time:
<philbull> http://philbull.googlepages.com/MALLARD.txt
<DougieRichardson> shaunm: how automated can the conditioning be? Take UNR, can we in some way allow the help to identify which interface is in use?
<j1mc> philbull: that's a pretty good summary. thanks.
<shaunm> ok, so conditional processing.  typically, formats provide loose semantics on this, and people use their own tailored processing tools to do exactly the conditional processing they need, at build time
<technomensch> that would be extremely cool if it could dougie
<shaunm> we display source documents in yelp, at run time
<shaunm> which means for me to do conditional processing, I need very exactly specified behavior
<shaunm> note that yelp doesn't do any conditional processing on docbook files, and people have been doing conditional processing for years
<shaunm> also, what's UNR?
<j1mc> ubuntu netbook remix
<DougieRichardson> ubuntu netbook remox
<shaunm> (be patient with me.  I don't know all the ubuntu lingo)
<DougieRichardson> in s t e r e o ;-)
<j1mc> :)
<shaunm> heh
<mwcrowley> sorry, I've got to run, but I'll stay in contact,
<j1mc> mwcrowley: thanks for sticking around :)
<shaunm> so it might just be that build-time conditional processing is sufficient for you
<dsas_> ubuntu/gnome with a different launcher, different default apps and some window management stuff
<shaunm> i.e. you install pages with conditional information stripped.  yelp does nothing special.  at build time, you construct the pages based on conditions in a source page file
<j1mc> shaunm: from your perspective, what are the "missing features" in mallard that are needed for you to say, "this is ready to use."
<DougieRichardson> UNR has two interfaces that a user can switch between at runtime
<j1mc> philbull mentioned i18n and "other missing features"
<shaunm> j1mc: the schema as it exists right now is more or less what I'm planning to be 1.0
<j1mc> even if not all of the "nice to haves" are in place...
<shaunm> I need to flesh out the spec and the implementation
<j1mc> for those who aren't at the meeting now, or for those completely new to mallard - do you have a link to the spec / implementation info?
<shaunm> http://www.gnome.org/~shaunm/mallard/
<shaunm> http://www.gnome.org/~shaunm/mallard/mallard.rng
<shaunm> (or .rnc if you want the compact syntax)
<j1mc> cool
<j1mc> philbull: did you have any other comments you wanted to make at this time?
<shaunm> note that the spec itself is written in mallard, so you're looking at example html build from mallard
<j1mc> w00t
<shaunm> so...
<philbull> not really, most of it should be in that summary I posted
<shaunm> I'm planning for the spec to be 1.0 for gnome 3.0
<shaunm> I have a short list of things I'm planning for 1.2, which I intend to release six months later with gnome 3.2
<dsas_> which is march 2010?
<shaunm> (the spec version won't always increment with gnome releases)
<shaunm> dsas_: tentatively, yes
<j1mc> ok.  thanks shaunm :)
<shaunm> conditional processing could be on the 1.2 list, if I can get some people to sit down with me and hammer out concrete details
<technomensch> <<< is kinda glad he's sticking on the wiki side of things for a while
<j1mc> if people wanted to learn more about this schema stuff... where could they look?  i mean, to learn about how schemas are set up...
<j1mc> is it xml stuff?  xsl?  schema-o-rama.com?
<shaunm> relax-ng
 * j1mc goes to register schema-o-rama.com  :)
<j1mc> ok... cool.
<j1mc> philbull: installation guide!
<shaunm> if there's demand, I don't mind creating an xsd as well.  but the rng is canonical
<j1mc> canonical with a lowercase "c" :)
<shaunm> heh, yes
<philbull> OK, installation guide:
<philbull> The Installation Guide (IG) team was selected this week.
<philbull> We have a great bunch of people, and I'm really excited about the project.
<philbull> It's a much more structured approach to running a docs project than I'm used to, so we'll see how it goes.
<philbull> A list of the members of the team is available at:
<philbull> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Specs/KarmicInstallationGuide/TeamRoles
<philbull> Jim and Dougie are also going to advise on what set of tools we should use to write the guide.
<philbull> It may or may not be DITA or Mallard, depending on what seems the most feasible.
<philbull> Next week we should hopefully start getting down to the nitty-gritty.
<philbull> DB and the writers (Augustina, Avi and Kelvin) are sorting out a style guide.
<philbull> Adam should be getting in touch with the ubiquity devs to get a roadmap out of them.
<philbull> I think they're making a lot of changes this cycle, which will obviously affect us.
<philbull> I've asked Nathan to look at planning a user testing programme.
<philbull> User testing is a *big* deal to me at the moment. I think we should be doing it everywhere.
<philbull> I have a few ideas on how we can extract information on usage patterns etc.
<philbull> That's about it for the IG for now. Any questions/flames?
<philbull> .
<j1mc> thanks philbull
<philbull> sorry for the massive textdump
<j1mc> DougieRichardson: i sent a note to you and philbull ... i'm not feeling super hot about using DITA for this release of the guide.
<DougieRichardson> j1mc: not if its for Karmic and ultimately, if we move to DITA then we would have to merge other documentation in any evnet
<DougieRichardson> ^^event
<philbull> j1mc: I'll get back to you about that tomorrow. I still need to get a test installation of the open toolkit working
<DougieRichardson> philbull: the start scripts good isn't it. lol
<philbull> heh
<j1mc> the installation script installs it to the user's home directory
<j1mc> opensuse packages it so that it goes into /usr/... something
<DougieRichardson> once you take out the ^M carriage returns
<j1mc> just in looking over the syntax, it would take time to decide which elements to use
<j1mc> in what situations...
<philbull> j1mc: we could just use a set similar to Mallard's
<philbull> that would make conversion much easier
<j1mc> i'd rather we prepare this version using known tools, then we could easily port it to DITA if we decide that's what we want to do later.
<philbull> That seems reasonable
<DougieRichardson> I'm in agreement
<philbull> If we use DocBook, would you or Dougie mind helping me with the DocBook->PDF stuff?
<philbull> My attempts always look like ass
<philbull> I want the guide to be pretty!
<j1mc> philbull: sure.  iirc, even mdke has some difficulty with converting to PDF
<j1mc> opensuse uses a proprietary docbook > pdf converter called "renderx" (i think that's what it is called).
<j1mc> i think it is generally known to produce prettier output
<j1mc> :/
<DougieRichardson> dblatex is not very configurable
<DougieRichardson> the best we could manage is available in the desktop training branch
<philbull> Maybe we can do DocBook->HTML->Layout tool
<DougieRichardson> I'm beginning to lean to DB->ODF->PDF
<philbull> That would be good too.
<philbull> At least OO is scriptable
<j1mc> i'm certainly willing to help with it, though
<philbull> Thanks guys
<philbull> Shall we move on?
<technomensch> btw, semisidebar
<j1mc> it sounds like, at this time, we're going to go ahead with docbook for the Install Guide then
<technomensch> after I finish my guide, what am I going to do with it?
<philbull> j1mc: agreed
<technomensch> I mean the playbook
<philbull> technomensch: we can attach a PDF to a page on the wiki
<technomensch> quick, easy, simple
<technomensch> I like it
<j1mc> i think it should also be available (in some form) on the wiki itself
<j1mc> ^^ referring to technomensch's document
<philbull> technomensch: Google Docs can export to ODF, can't it?
<j1mc> yes
<j1mc> philbull: it can even save as pdf
<technomensch> that was a project I was working on previously, trying to clean up all the formatting docs
<philbull> awesome
<technomensch> once I have this playbook, I think that it could almost replace the existing info
<technomensch> eventually......
<technomensch> I just figured this docbook discussion might be a good time to slip that question in :)
<j1mc> ok... Kubuntu and Xubuntu
<j1mc> I don't think anyone is here from Kubuntu
<j1mc> and Xubuntu docs need a lot of lurve
<j1mc> so I need to get my groove on
<j1mc> that's all on that for now, I guess. :)
<j1mc> well, I guess I'll say that I'm going to get a Xubunt team member to update our CSS for how our docs are displayed
<j1mc> Next topic (almost done)
<j1mc> Discussion about licensing for wiki.ubuntu.com
<philbull> does it need licensing?
<philbull> is anyone going to reuse any of the material there?
<j1mc> mdke: sent a note to the ML about it.
<j1mc> "The team wiki isn't licensed. I think that having been prompted by a
<j1mc> blog posts around about this, the CC will address it soon."
<j1mc> seeing as mdke is on the Community Council, we'll wait to hear how it is addressed.  If people have comments... we have a thread on the ML about the topic.
<j1mc> i think my brain hurts
<j1mc> last topic?
<philbull> It's too big to discuss now
<j1mc> ok
<philbull> I'll bring it up on the ML
<j1mc> sounds good
<j1mc> any other comments before we wrap up?
<j1mc> *crickets*
<j1mc> ok, well, thanks for participating today, everyone
<philbull> thanks j1mc
<DougieRichardson> thanks j1mc
<j1mc> thank you, philberto and dougie-san
 * DougieRichardson waves to all
<philbull> "The Great Philberto"
<philbull> (to give my stage name)
<technomensch> ttfn
<j1mc> and technomensch and BrunoXLambert and mwcrowley and minderaser and avi1 and missaugustina
<j1mc> ttfn
<j1mc> later, all
<DougieRichardson> see ya
<philbull> anyone from the Installation Guide team still around?
<avi1> I'm here.
<j1mc> philbull: I'm here, but . . . my brain is kind of a mashed potato for now
<philbull> that's OK j1mc
<philbull> I was just going to ask how it's going for everyone
<philbull> avi?
<philbull> missaugustina?
<philbull> who have I missed?
<philbull> so, just let me know if you're having problems with anything or have any questions
<j1mc> philbull: thanks... will do.
<j1mc> i'm out of here for now.  thanks again, all.
<BrunoXLambert> see ya all
<philbull> bye guys!
#ubuntu-doc 2009-06-28
<mwcrowley>  /quit
<mwcrowley> #quit
#ubuntu-doc 2010-06-28
<sommer> mdke: do you know if there's any issue with doc.u.c updating from the maverick source?
<czajkowski> sommer: would you know who I could talk to regarding getting a wiki page convered to a pdf and adding to the doucment team resources
<sommer> czajkowski: not 100% sure, is it something that you'd want to automatically recreated the pdf after edits?
<czajkowski> sommer: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/ubuntu-loco-manual-guidelines-and-best-practices
<czajkowski> last action item
<sommer> czajkowski: I'd guess you'd have to convert the page to docbook, latex, or another format then create the pdf
<czajkowski> hmm I've no experience in that
<czajkowski> I'll poke around some more, thanks
<ubuntujenkins> I suggest latex :)
<sommer> welcome
<ubuntujenkins> you could print to cups pdf
<ubuntujenkins> czajkowski: am i right in thinking you want the wiki page to be in a pdf?
<czajkowski> ubuntujenkins: yes
<ubuntujenkins> I will have a go some time today if you like
<ubuntujenkins> czajkowski: http://ubuntuone.com/p/8DQ/ very first try We can soon change the layout. I have to go and cook now but will be back afterwards
<ubuntujenkins> ShayonJ: to be honest i don't know much about what needs to be done for the doc team i mostly work with the ubuntu manual team. the doc team mailing list is https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-doc this page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Wiki has some info on helping with the wiki stuff
<ShayonJ> ubuntujenkins: thanks a lot . :-)
<ubuntujenkins> ShayonJ: sorry i could not be more help
<zkriesse> ShayonJ: ooh another potential wiki editor?
<ShayonJ> ubuntujenkins: no worry dude . :-)
<ShayonJ> zkriesse: looking forward too :-) . Lets hope for the best ;-)
<ShayonJ> sorry for the late replies . Theres a match going on current ly . And Brazil is doing well . :D
<ShayonJ> zkriesse: If there is something you would like to share in this regard , lemme know !
<zkriesse> ShayonJ: well i lead a wiki group that is part of #ubuntu-beginners-team
<zkriesse> ShayonJ: I've got to mow my lawn but join that channel and ask around
<czajkows1i> ubuntujenkins: wow thanks
<ubuntujenkins> czajkowski: no problem, it was easy, once we get a layout you like. I think writing a script to convert the wiki to latex should be easy enough. No point people translating twice
<czajkowski> ubuntujenkins: those links don't seem to work though..
<ubuntujenkins> czajkowski: the did when i posted them try http://ubuntuone.com/p/8DQ/ and http://ubuntuone.com/p/8Dp/
<ubuntujenkins> nope stupid ubuntu one
<ubuntujenkins> let me put them in drop box
<ubuntujenkins> first one http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5012868/locos.pdf
<ubuntujenkins> and http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5012868/locos2.pdf
<ubuntujenkins> I wish ubuntu one was reliable
<ubuntujenkins> czajkowski: What do you think of the layout? I don't like either of them very much but its not my document, I don't know how you see it
<czajkowski> ubuntujenkins: wow thanks
<czajkowski> ubuntujenkins: meet paultag alother loco council member
<paultag> 'lo ubuntujenkins
<ubuntujenkins> hello paultag
<czajkowski> paultag: ubuntujenkins has helped with one of the action items http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5012868/locos.pdf  and http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5012868/locos2.pdf
<paultag> sec -- downloading
<paultag> ubuntujenkins: looks like LaTeX -- any chance you can push the .tex to LP so we can merge it into our +junk branch?
<paultag> ubuntujenkins: looks great, btw
<ubuntujenkins> I can indeed push it. any suggestions on how you want the layout? which branch would you like it in?
<paultag> ubuntujenkins: whatever format is fine, don't go through extra trouble, I know tex fairly well, so you won't confuse us :)
<paultag> ubuntujenkins: looks great, really, thank you for helping :)
<ubuntujenkins> cool, I am happy to help and do the other langauges. I will set up a branch and link it for you
<paultag> ubuntujenkins: sure, that sounds great
<czajkowski> ubuntujenkins: you rock thank you very much
<ubuntujenkins> no problem. I needed to get around to writing my first actual file after loads of debug work for the manual team :)
<ubuntujenkins> paultag: / czajkowski lp:~ubuntujenkins/+junk/loco has the .tex file in
<paultag> ubuntujenkins: thanks mate :)
<paultag> ubuntujenkins: branched and merged. I'll maintain "1.0" in lp:~ubuntu-lococouncil/+junk/guide :)
<paultag> ubuntujenkins: thanks, my friend :)
<ubuntujenkins> do you want me to do the same for the other langauges?
<czajkowski> ubuntujenkins: if you could I know I'd really appreciate it
<paultag> ubuntujenkins: I don't see why not, that sounds fantastic
<ubuntujenkins> cool will do
<ubuntujenkins> i will prepose the merge when they are done
<paultag> ubuntujenkins: sounds great, I'll get right on it as soon as you do :)
<czajkowski> whoo progress
<ubuntujenkins> the translators have not translated LoCoCouncil/LoCoTeamsBestPracticesandGuidelines, kinda makes the file incomplete
<czajkowski> ubuntujenkins: what do you mean?
<ubuntujenkins> czajkowski: it would be nice if the words Council teams best practices and guidelines were translated to go in the title
<czajkowski> ah I see
<czajkowski> I'm not sure the translators do it that way...
<ubuntujenkins> right what do you mean czajkowski?
<czajkowski> well I've not seen translators translate the title page
<czajkowski> but I'll ask dpm tomorrow
<ubuntujenkins> I just mean the title bit thats all
#ubuntu-doc 2010-06-29
<jussi> mdke: ping
<mdke> jussi: (In case I'm not around at the moment, please provide a bit of information about what you want and I will respond when I get back)
<jussi> mdke: please set the entrymsg of this channel to: This channel is logged at irclogs.ubuntu.com. Use of this channel implies acceptance of the terms at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/TermsOfService
<jussi> you can do this using the command /msg chanserv set #ubuntu-doc entrymsg This channel is logged at irclogs.ubuntu.com. Use of this channel implies acceptance of the terms at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/TermsOfService
<jussi> also adding the UbuntuIrcCouncil to the access list would be helpful so we can maintain things like this if necessary.
<jussi> mdke: you may also want to consider setting your auto responder to "/notice $user <message>" so as only the user gets the message, and not the whole channel.
#ubuntu-doc 2010-06-30
<YoBoY> hi
<YoBoY> how the documentations in help.ubuntu.com are translated ?
<YoBoY> ok found it, and the switching part really don't have .po files Â¬_Â¬
<alkisg> Could someone move https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSPKarmicLocalAppsFirefox to https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/LTSPLocalAppsKarmic ?
<tsimpson> you (anyone who can edit the wiki) should be able to do that
<tsimpson> or not it seems
<alkisg> No, renaming/moving pages is a privileged operation... could I apply for whatever team is needed for that? I only need to do it rarely, but noone in the ltsp team has the necessary rights for this, so it might as well be me...
<zkriesse> alkisg: you will have to apply to the Wiki Admin group
<alkisg> Thank you
<zkriesse> alkisg: One sec, i can get the link here for ya
<zkriesse> https://edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-doc-wiki-admins
<alkisg> Hmmm seems to be a small team, I hope it's ok if I apply only to maintain the UbuntuLTSP/ area.
<zkriesse> that will be up to mdke
 * alkisg reads about the team...
#ubuntu-doc 2010-07-01
<juancarlospaco2> Hi, any Mod of Ubuntu Wiki here?, need to ask a Question about Merge Pages...
<zkriesse> juancarlospaco2: I'm not a mod but what's the question
<juancarlospaco2> i want to merge 2 pages
<juancarlospaco2> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/LXC and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LinuxContainers
<juancarlospaco2> because redundant
<zkriesse> juancarlospaco2: ok
<zkriesse> juancarlospaco2: are you positive?
<juancarlospaco2> zkriesse: positive?
<zkriesse> juancarlospaco2: are you sure
<juancarlospaco2> i want to improve LXC docs thats all
<juancarlospaco2> yes
<juancarlospaco2> read it if you dont trust me, just the same thing, different words
<juancarlospaco2> im editing LXC now
#ubuntu-doc 2010-07-02
<newboon2age_> nhandler: I don't see akgraner, but can i leave a few newsletter article suggestions here now?
<nhandler> newboon2age_: Sure
<newboon2age_> Who Should -- or Shouldn't -- Use Linux   http://www.linuxinsider.com/story/Who-Should---or-Shouldnt---Use-Linux-70329.html
<newboon2age_> Basically concludes with the current state of Linux being so good everyone except those locked into programs that only run on one OS.
<newboon2age_> Another just a little older, but worthy by the same author "Linux Girl" -- katherine Noyes...
<newboon2age_> Ubuntu: Harder to Use, or Just Harder to Spell?  http://www.linuxinsider.com/story/Ubuntu-Harder-to-Use-or-Just-Harder-to-Spell-70281.html
<newboon2age_> and another by Linux Girl:  Can a FOSS Firm Hit the Billion-Dollar Jackpot?  http://www.linuxinsider.com/story/Can-a-FOSS-Firm-Hit-the-Billion-Dollar-Jackpot-70244.html
<newboon2age_> These could be used whenever because their not about timeliness
<newboon2age_> here's some ones more about timeliness...
<newboon2age_> Cisco working on a Atom-powered Ubuntu Linux tablet   http://www.islate.org/index.php/2010/07/01/cisco-cius-ubuntu-linux-tablet-atom/
<newboon2age_> Web confirms webOS on Slate PCs  http://www.techtree.com/India/News/HP_confirms_webOS_on_Slate_PCs/551-112119-580.html
<newboon2age_> that one mentions that HP is offering Ubuntu Netbook on some of their netbooks, which I didn't know...
<newboon2age_> HTC HD2 Given New Life With Android 2.1 and Ubuntu (Video) http://androinica.com/2010/07/01/htc-hd2-given-new-life-with-android-2-1-and-ubuntu-video/
<newboon2age_> Pictures of Ubuntu: Linux's best photo shots at Windows and Mac    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/06/30/linux_versus_mac_windows_2/
<newboon2age_> Ubuntu 10.10 Maverick Meerkat Alpha 2 Released http://techie-buzz.com/foss/ubuntu-10-10-maverick-meerkat-alpha-2-released.html
<pleia2> newboon2age_: you're welcome to join #ubuntu-news when you have suggestions, that way the whole team can see them and don't need to rely upon any one member to pass them along :)
<newboon2age_> oh, oops.  that's what i was intending to do.  Sorry nhandler
<newboon2age_> got my irc channels mixed up
<newboon2age_> sorry...
<newboon2age_> Should i transfer these to there or just continue there? nhandler
<nhandler> newboon2age_: Re-post the links in -news so the other editors can see
<newboon2age_> will do  nhandler, thanks once again...
<phillw> hi folks
#ubuntu-doc 2010-07-03
<dutchie> ooh, a godbyk-sagan
#ubuntu-doc 2010-07-04
<tracey> hi everyone, i'm tracey and a very recent convert to ubuntu. am loving all the software available and so am hoping to offer something back, maybe helping with documentation
<zkriesse> hey tracey
<frank82vt> How can i open a url file internet shortcut from windows in ubuntu?
#ubuntu-doc 2011-06-30
<andrejz> Hello!
<andrejz> I was wondering if it's possible to export official ubuntu docs into a pdf file?
#ubuntu-doc 2012-06-25
<hobgoblin> can anyone tell me how you go about deleting a wiki?
<hobgoblin> can anyone tell me how you go about deleting a wiki?
#ubuntu-doc 2012-06-26
<Riddell> hi, I've a docs writer who wants to help kubuntu, how do I get her added to ubuntu-core-doc so she can do that?
#ubuntu-doc 2012-06-27
<littlegirl> Hey there, thanks for adding me to ubuntu-core-doc. (:
#ubuntu-doc 2012-06-29
<m4v> Hi. The #title line, for change the displayed title in wiki pages, hasn't been working in wiki.ubuntu.com. Is this a knwon issue?
#ubuntu-doc 2013-06-26
<chouga> Boa-noite a todos!
#ubuntu-doc 2013-06-29
<vhenry93> Hi, just joined the Docteam, and Intro points to a Beginners Team to help get started, but no indication of how to contact this team. Can anyone point me in the right direction?
#ubuntu-doc 2015-06-22
<CrazyLemon> hey guys
<atamira> you must be new
<atamira> oops
<CrazyLemon> me? not really
<CrazyLemon> i just ocasionally pop by if i have an issue
<CrazyLemon> :)
<ahoneybun> pmatulis_: http://192.254.78.155/
<pmatulis_> ahoneybun: i see some kubuntu documentation
<ahoneybun> that is made from that Sphinx
<ahoneybun> *that from
<pmatulis_> ahoneybun: ok, i have used sphinx a little
<pmatulis_> ahoneybun: re last doc meeting, we can research some stuff
<pmatulis_> ahoneybun: concerning using Markdown, ideally GFM (Github Flavored Markdown), for the installation-guide. we need to know if our processes will accept it or not
#ubuntu-doc 2015-06-25
<ahoneybun> pmatulis_: next meeting is July 7th. :) I would change the topic but I don't have access
<pmatulis> ahoneybun: did you get my last msg concerning markdown about a week ago?
<pmatulis> repeat:
<pmatulis> ahoneybun: concerning using Markdown, ideally GFM (Github Flavored Markdown), for the installation-guide. we need to know if our processes will accept it or not
<pmatulis> ahoneybun: can you look into this?
<ahoneybun> processes?
<ahoneybun> I did not get that msg
<pmatulis> ahoneybun: have you had the chance to look over how we publish stuff on help.ubuntu.com?
<ahoneybun> I have not tbh
<pmatulis> ahoneybun: well your idea won't go very far then. specifically, we need to know if LP can handle markdown for managing translations, and if it does, what flavour of markdown
<pmatulis> ahoneybun: i suggest you speak with someone knowledgeable in LP doc translations and explain your idea. there is a translations team, mailing list, etc
<ahoneybun> I don't even know how LP does it, I can never find the .po/.pot files
<ahoneybun> I was trying to prototype working with translations last night/this morning
<pmatulis> ahoneybun: that's fine, but we also need to know if LP can handle it
<pmatulis> ahoneybun: the translations aspect always thwarted me in the past when i thought of moving away from XML, maybe you will prove successful. it might be trivially easy, but it may not be
<ahoneybun> pmatulis: I have the Kubuntu Manual all moved to reST and uploaded to LP so we could prototype it
<ahoneybun> I have talked with someone over in the Kubuntu camp about using a translation tool called Pootle
<pmatulis> ahoneybun: crux of the matter IMO is: LP can generate the POT file from the master english XML file. hence: can LP do the same from a master Markdown file
<ahoneybun> that is the question
<pmatulis> yep
<ahoneybun> I'm learning how LP works with translations as we talk so I'm just catching up lol
<pmatulis> as long as you remember that english is the root of the docs it becomes clearer - english XML -> POT file -> LP handles online translations of strings in POT file -> download PO file (result of translations) for every language -> generate HTML from each PO file
<ahoneybun> so the po file holds all the translations?
<pmatulis> for each language, yes. so there are multiple PO files
<ahoneybun> I see
<ahoneybun> so for the current idea: english reST -> POT file -> Hope LP handles the translations in POT -> download the PO file -> Sphinx makes html for each PO file
<ahoneybun> from looking at this: http://sphinx-doc.org/intl.html?highlight=translations
<ahoneybun> sphinx can make POT files so we push them into LP and let it make PO files
<ahoneybun> rather then Pootle
<pmatulis> ahoneybun: you may want to use sphinx for local tests or POC but ultimately the makefile we use needs to contain the instructions and currently we don't use sphinx. as long as we get updated PO files we should be good. concentrate on the main question above (see 'crux:')
<pmatulis> and i would prefer GFM flavour of markdown
<pmatulis> and recall that we are testing the installation-guide first
<ahoneybun> but we don't use github
<pmatulis> ahoneybun: it may still be compatible, it is worth asking
<ahoneybun> I have not messed with using Markdown (in any form) with Sphinx tbh
<ahoneybun> well I just made some .po files with Sphinx
<ahoneybun> sorry pot
<ahoneybun> pmatulis: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/11775051/
<ahoneybun> where is the installation guide?
<pmatulis> https://launchpad.net/installation-guide
<pmatulis> https://help.ubuntu.com/lts/installation-guide/index.html
<ahoneybun> bzr branch lp:~ubuntu-core-dev/installation-guide/ubuntu ?
<pmatulis> looks good to me
<ahoneybun>  <sdough> ahoneybun: Looks like that depends on what Markdown parser you use.
<ahoneybun> I'm in the sphinx-doc irc
<pmatulis> should be asking LP people IMO about what capabilities LP has
#ubuntu-doc 2017-06-27
<GunnarHj> jbicha: Still there?
<jbicha> GunnarHj: hi
<GunnarHj> jbicha: Hi Jeremy! It's about the seed MP, so maybe we should move to #ubuntu-desktop...
<jbicha> if you're available during Europe work hours, it might be useful to discuss that there then
