#smooth-operator 2020-03-16
<Chipaca> goood morning peeps
<niemeyer> Gooooood day :)
<Chipaca> niemeyer: ï½ï½ï½ï½ï½ï½ï½ï½ï½ï½ï½ï½ï½ï½ï½ï½ï½ï½ï½ï½ï½ï½ï½ï½ï½ï½ï½ï½ï½ï½ï½ï½ï½ï½ï½  ï½ï½ï½ï½ï½ï½ï½ï¼
<Dmitrii-Sh> https://github.com/juju/juju/pull/11323 - "pod spec" becomes "k8s spec"
<Chipaca> nice
<Dmitrii-Sh> I think "pod spec" was a confusing term because it wasn't just about pods
<Facu> Muy buenos dÃ­as a todos!
<Chipaca> Facu: buen dÃ­a! no tennis today, right?
<Facu> hola Chipaca! nop, I'm quarantined
<Chipaca> ok
<Chipaca> Dmitrii-Sh: Facu: can we have a meet in ~15 minutes?
<Facu> Chipaca, sure
<Dmitrii-Sh> ack
<Chipaca> i've got my manager hat on so beware :-)
<Facu> Chipaca, niemeyer, I started this https://docs.google.com/document/d/12dha4GkmjWusAN6cMMZsQKKK-qfpVrvPFw6PRX0wUNA/edit# (so we can collect requirements or discussion items for when we actually talk/decide this)
<Facu> Chipaca, I'm ready now! Room 57? ( https://meet.google.com/veq-yfqm-kdk )
<Chipaca> Facu: sure
<Chipaca> Dmitrii-Sh: ^^
<Facu> Chipaca, we're there
<Chipaca> jam: ð
<jam> Chipaca: Is that the hand-washing emote?
<Chipaca> jam: no clearly that's ð
<Chipaca> or maybe ð
<Chipaca> jam: i was pinging you because i'm (experimentally) changing how our standups work
<Chipaca> niemeyer: ^ you too, probably, at least for now :-)
<Chipaca> jam: there'll be a google doc where you write what you worked on (and maybe what you're hoping to get to); this needs to be written before the standup itself
<Chipaca> then at the standup you just call out things that bring up questions, or blockers, or just highlights; the team reads the standup doc after the meeting to catch up with the rest of the detail
<Chipaca> jam: this serves three purposes
<Chipaca> jam: 1. focus and shorten the standups themselves
<Chipaca> jam: 2. feed into a weekly 'whattup with chamrcraft' email
<Chipaca> jam: 3. make it less hypercritical to have the standups such that everybody can make them every day
<Chipaca> jam: hopefully this makes sense to you
<jam> Chipaca: and a google doc vs a trello/kanban/discourse/something else?
<Chipaca> jam: a trello exists but it's less detailed than this, yes
<jam> Chipaca: I'm fine with it, just have gotten used to other project managementy tools.
<Chipaca> our trello: https://trello.com/b/SGgb8v0h/charmcraft
<jam> Chipaca: the google doc that I see linked above is https://docs.google.com/document/d/12dha4GkmjWusAN6cMMZsQKKK-qfpVrvPFw6PRX0wUNA/edit which points to "Charm Tool Spec" is there a different doc that I missed?
<Chipaca> still nascent, i should add
<Chipaca> the standup doc is a different one
<Chipaca> Facu: Dmitrii-Sh: jam: niemeyer: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1sJQ5-OtK83x2KdePZfp1AC_3FQJrvzXaWFEc_n-4vxY/edit#
<Chipaca> Facu: Dmitrii-Sh: if you could read what i just told jam to double-check it (1) matches what we discussed, and (2) i didn't forget anything please :-)
<Chipaca> jam: the trello will have doing/.../done lanes but does not have them yet fwiw
<Facu> Chipaca, looks fine
<Chipaca> jam: i'm still thinking about how best to keep track of some of the things, as quite a bit of at least outreach / library work is not a flow of work
<Chipaca> jam: i also brought forward the standup half an hour fwiw (so we won't have Facu on Mondays once quarantine is up, but otherwise should work for all)
<jam> Chipaca: everyone is away on Friday? What party day is this?  :)
<Chipaca> jam: the feast of St. Arnold of Soissons (patron saint of beer)
<Facu> I *may* work on Friday, if PyCamp is cancelled here
<Chipaca> jam: i asked for holiday because i was going to run in lisbon :'(
<Facu> Chipaca, run in lisbon?
<Chipaca> Facu: lisboa meia maratona
<jam> Wikipedia says the Feast is August 14, are you just trying to get a day of for extra beer? :)
<Facu> oh
<jam> Chipaca: you were running from Friday through Monday? That is true dedication
<Chipaca> well, some tourism was also planned
<Chipaca> jam: wrt the feast, maybe we're observing it on the orthodox calendar
<jam> Chipaca: I thought you were just running to Lisbon and back.
<jam> https://www.google.com/maps/dir/London,+UK/Lisbon,+Portugal/@44.7763435,-13.6239022,5z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m14!4m13!1m5!1m1!1s0x47d8a00baf21de75:0x52963a5addd52a99!2m2!1d-0.1277583!2d51.5073509!1m5!1m1!1s0xd19331a61e4f33b:0x400ebbde49036d0!2m2!1d-9.1393366!2d38.7222524!3e2
<jam> says its about 375hrs
<jam> but you're running, not walking, right?
<jam> Chipaca: I also don't have edit rights to the doc where you want me writing what I've been up to :)
<Chipaca> fixing...
<Chipaca> jam: please reload
<jam> Chipaca: fixed. thanks. Is the intent to have 10min standups/ break other discussions out of it?
<Chipaca> jam: that route cheats because it puts you on a ferry, that's non-canon
<Chipaca> jam: i am not too religious about it, in that i'm ok with a little discussion happening in the standup, but as soon as it gets rambly yes it should break out
<Chipaca> jam: some research is still needed on the subject of pontoon running shoes
<Chipaca> and at what point are you just standing on a boat
<jam> Chipaca: when you hook up outboard motors on the back ?
<Chipaca> jam: maybe it should be a venetian bicycle and call it a biathlon
<Chipaca> or, swimming, but i suck at swimming
 * Chipaca also sucks at running
<Chipaca> ignore that last comment, it was from my knee
<Facu> Chipaca, can not edit the doc
<Chipaca> Facu: reload?
<Chipaca> Facu: or use your canonical acct
<Facu> Chipaca, reloaded, thanks
<Chipaca> Facu: also, https://artsandculture.google.com/asset/among-the-sierra-nevada-california/IQE1CY9y_Rfy5A
<Facu> Chipaca, nice! the author removed the AT-AT! :p
<Chipaca> Facu: it was shrouded by the revisionists
<Facu> jeje
<Chipaca> jam: standup?
<jam> yep, just getting out of my last one
<Chipaca> 10 events, sitting in a queue
<Chipaca> we're getting better! that was only double the lenght it should've bene :-|
<Chipaca> been*
<niemeyer> Sorry... /o\
<Chipaca> niemeyer: we'll get there :-)
<Facu> niemeyer, where do you propose to start piling examples? (my only suggestion is that this shouldn't be too public, so far, until we have some APIs more stable)
<niemeyer> Facu: Best thing I can think of right now is a repository under canonical/ with "examples" or "samples"  as part of the name, and one example per subdir
<niemeyer> Facu: WE might then take PRs on that
<niemeyer> Facu: That's just one idea though
<Facu> niemeyer, ack
<Chipaca> niemeyer: Facu: how about an 'examples' branch in operator itself?
<Chipaca> Dmitrii-Sh: WRT gnuoy and the ceph-iscsi charm, what he needs is a check that he's using the framework in a sensible way (and not a line-by-line python code review)
<Dmitrii-Sh> ok
<Chipaca> niemeyer: how're you for meetings? can i make your life worse in that sense
<niemeyer> Chipaca: On a call but can do shortly
 * Facu -> lunch
<Dmitrii-Sh> Facu: does that right any bell?
<Dmitrii-Sh> charm push ./ cs:~dmitriis/nats
<Dmitrii-Sh> ERROR cannot post archive: cannot put archive blob: failed to PUT object 3701adfe8af7ba58-3c2ab4da9ad292fc from container charmstore-blobs
<Dmitrii-Sh> caused by: failed executing the request http://10.24.0.23:8080/v1/AUTH_acf64c68bc7349c98dec46b7e0e72d9f/charmstore-blobs/3701adfe8af7ba58-3c2ab4da9ad292fc
<Dmitrii-Sh> caused by: Put http://10.24.0.23:8080/v1/AUTH_acf64c68bc7349c98dec46b7e0e72d9f/charmstore-blobs/3701adfe8af7ba58-3c2ab4da9ad292fc: read tcp 10.25.10.42:51284->10.24.0.23:8080: read: connection reset by peer
<Dmitrii-Sh> It succeeded after I retried
<Facu> Dmitrii-Sh, let me see
<Facu> Dmitrii-Sh, no clue anyway... that's the old charmstore?
<Dmitrii-Sh> yes
<Facu> ah, don't know much about its infrastructure
<Facu> sorry
<Dmitrii-Sh> Chipaca: Apparently, there is no way to install and disable a snap. So the race condition I was after was because of the following sequence:
<Dmitrii-Sh> 1) snap got installed;
<Dmitrii-Sh> 2) systemd service start attempts by snapd followed that before a config was rendered by a charm;
<Dmitrii-Sh> 3) the charm then rendered the config but a `systemctl service start <service>` made by it then failed once. It then succeeded on a retry.
<Dmitrii-Sh> Facu: ok, np
<Chipaca> Dmitrii-Sh: i'm not sure i understand what you mean
<Chipaca> Dmitrii-Sh: snaps can ship services that are disabled until they are configured
<Chipaca> Dmitrii-Sh: snap services can be disabled after installing the snap, but there is no way to say 'install this but disable the services'
<Chipaca> maybe that's what you mean
<Chipaca> Dmitrii-Sh: what is the snap?
<Dmitrii-Sh> Chipaca: yes, maybe this is a bug of a particular snap - services shouldn't be started before a config is supplied from an external entity (the charm in this case).
<Dmitrii-Sh> and, yes, there's no 'install --disable'
<Chipaca> Dmitrii-Sh: as a blanket assertion that is false
<Chipaca> "services shouldn't be started before a config is supplied" is false, i mean, in general
<Dmitrii-Sh> Chipaca: it's the nats snap created by the Anbox team
<Chipaca> it is perfectly possible to ship a service that works without a config
<Chipaca> if it does need a config, then its install hook should disable the services until that config is provided
<Chipaca> easy to do
<Dmitrii-Sh> Chipaca: yes, in this particular case it didn't make sense to start it before config is available.
<Dmitrii-Sh> and the fix was to do snap stop nats --disable on install
<Dmitrii-Sh> and then start --enable after the config was renderd
<Dmitrii-Sh> rendered*
<Chipaca> Dmitrii-Sh: the real fix is for the snap's install hook to do 'snapctl stop --disable' itself
<Dmitrii-Sh> ok, I'll suggest that to Simon
<Facu> Chipaca, do we want or not to have copyright header in otherwise empty files? (`__init__.py`)
<Chipaca> Facu: nope
<Facu> ack
<Chipaca> Facu: that's why the previous checker explicitly ignored empty files
<Facu> -not -empty
<Facu> nice
<Facu> `find` is so complex
<Chipaca> tbf the -type f should be the first predicate, but Â¯\_(ã)_/Â¯
<niemeyer> Chipaca: SOrry, left one to join another.. I'm available now.. how're things there?
<Dmitrii-Sh> Got another person asking me about how to easily retrieve pod fqdns and expose them to a different app without relying on ingress-address == cluster-ip https://bugs.launchpad.net/juju/+bug/1867168
<Dmitrii-Sh> seems like this will be a common theme for stateful apps that use headless services in K8s https://kubernetes.io/docs/concepts/services-networking/service/#headless-services
<Facu> Moved all tests to unit tests, removed Makefile, improved README for dependencies and how to test: https://github.com/canonical/operator/pull/184
<Chipaca> niemeyer: and I'd stepped out to get some sunlight
<Chipaca> niemeyer: i need to get dinner started, but it's not a 100%-of-my-concentration thing once i've kicked it off so we can probably chat while i do it, if that works for you -- ping me on signal or tg if it works for you too
 * Chipaca will probably be able to work fine with 9 fingers after all
<niemeyer> Chipaca: Sounds dangerous :)
<niemeyer> We can do it tomorrow
<Facu> if I do juju status, I see for postgresql/0:  Workload=active    Agent=idle
<Facu> for my-super-charm the Agent is also idle, but the Workload is in "unknown" state... is this ok? there's something charm side that should change that?
 * Facu eods
<Chipaca> Facu: ð
<Chipaca> Facu: have a good one
#smooth-operator 2020-03-17
<Facu> Muy buenos dÃ­as a todos!
<niemeyer> Chipaca: https://meet.google.com/hza-qwao-iyf
<Chipaca> greetings, humans
<Chipaca> now that my laptop lets me type stuff :-)
<Chipaca> grr, i might need to go back to the boys' school
<Chipaca> _might_
<niemeyer> Aww
<Facu> Hola Chipaca! what did you break?
<Chipaca> Facu: in my laptop? the lock screen would unlock with my password, but not release the keyboard lock nor go away
<Chipaca> so i could see the launcher and the menubar but nothing else, and i could click but not type
<Chipaca> Â¯\_(ã)_/Â¯
<Chipaca> unless you were asking about the boys' school, that's more about it being a stressful day because of the annual review, and one of them not having their regular teacher
<Facu> Chipaca, no, no, the laptop
<Facu> Chipaca, I assumed you didn't break the school, nor any teacher
<Chipaca> not at this school at least
<Chipaca> (at the previous one i came this >< close)
<Facu> je
<Facu> Chipaca, so! you told me that write something while still having my "newbie fresh eyes" (or something) regarding local testing and etc... I didn't know if you wanted something specifically for the example I'm working on, or something more generic... so I just wrote "my story" in a way that could help others, and we can continue from there
<Chipaca> Facu: ð
<Chipaca> Facu: i wanted to capture that mind-state somewhere so we could build on it for a tutorial walkthrough thing
<Chipaca> Facu: your "my story" should accomplish that nicely
<Chipaca> thank you
<Facu> Chipaca, there are a couple of FIXMEs, though: https://pastebin.canonical.com/p/YFGmPW5TPb/
<Chipaca> Facu: great
<Chipaca> Facu: Dmitrii-Sh: gentle reminder to update the standup doc
<Chipaca> jam: even gentler reminder ("I'm not the boss of you")
<Dmitrii-Sh> Chipaca: ty, just wrapping some code changes up and will update it.
<Facu> Chipaca, done! I'll aim to do that on my day's "rising edge"
<Chipaca> Facu: :-)
<Facu> it feels that there could be a better way to "close" the reviews, something more explicit like "you're done! thanks!"
<Facu> it tells me "Saved" and "Reviews completed", so I guess everything is right
<Chipaca> Facu: which review?
<Facu> Chipaca, 360Â°
<Chipaca> ah! heh
<Chipaca> i haven't looked yet
 * Chipaca mostly EODs
<Chipaca> will be doing some HR stuff after dinner, probably
 * Facu almost nailed the changes to get the example working IRL
 * Facu eods
#smooth-operator 2020-03-18
<Chipaca> morning!
<niemeyer> Hallo!
<Chipaca> there's so much neat code in charmhelpers
<Facu> Muy buenos dÃ­as a todos!
<Chipaca> Facu: heyy
<Facu> Chipaca, holas
<Chipaca> niemeyer: could you take another pass at the testing pr? it seems good to go from where i stand
<Chipaca> Facu: ditto, wrt docstrings pr
<Facu> Chipaca, sure
 * Facu is fighting juju error units... not in his charm, but in postgresql!!
<Facu> stupid postgresql
 * Facu kills the unit and re-deploy
<Chipaca> $ make
<Chipaca> Please add copyright headers to the following files:
<Chipaca> ./.git/logs/refs/remotes/jameinel/document-charm.py
<Chipaca> (and so it goes on)
<Chipaca> sigh
<Facu> Chipaca, not with my branch ;)
<Chipaca> late late late late
<Chipaca> Facu: 2020-03-12 12:33:05 <Chipaca> Facu: wrt PrefixedEvent (and thanks to Dmitrii-Sh for pointing this out) means you do self.on["dumper"] and you get a PrefixedEvent that has non-prefixed events on it
<Chipaca> Facu: that's local time for me, ie GMT
<Chipaca> Facu: https://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2020/03/12/%23smooth-operator.html#t12:23 FWIW
<Facu> Chipaca, I missed that, thanks
<Facu> Chipaca, so, regarding the change of what an Interface could do to hook into the events through the charm...
<Facu> we brought from Frankfurt the idea of doing...
<Facu>     mysql_relation_events = charm.on.relation_events_for(mysql_relation_name)
<Facu>     self.framework.observe(mysql_relation_events.joined, self._client_joined)
<Facu> I changed it a little to be able to not have different methods for the different event types...
<Facu>     mysql_relation_events = charm.on.events_for(relation=mysql_relation_name)
<Facu>     self.framework.observe(mysql_relation_events.joined, self._client_joined)
<Facu> But we really can do this *now*...
<Facu>     mysql_events = charm.on[mysql_relation_name]
<Facu>     self.framework.observe(mysql_events.relation_joined, self._client_joined)
<Facu> So don't know if the change is worthwhile...
<Facu> it looks a little weird accesing 'on' as a dictionary
<Facu> we totally could add a method 'get_events_for' which is really __getitem__
<Facu>     mysql_events = charm.on.get_events_for(mysql_relation_name)
<Facu>     self.framework.observe(mysql_events.relation_joined, self._client_joined)
 * Facu wonders if he should open an issue about this
<Chipaca> Facu: the on being a dictionary-ish thing was a surprise, indeed
<Chipaca> sorry, was getting coffee :-)
<Chipaca> Facu: how does that appear in documentation?
<Chipaca> i'd expect an explicit method to be more obvious
<Chipaca> it's also unclear what .keys() or .values() would be used for in this dictionary :-)
<Facu> Chipaca, right, it's interesting to define if we *really* want to present it as a proper dict
<Chipaca> it has that cool-look-what-i-can-do feeling :-)
<Chipaca> Facu: but it'd be interesting to see it in use
<Chipaca> Beret: see? it works :-D
<Chipaca> whole computer feels sluggish, and on closer inspection the freq is stuck at 800MHz or under
<Chipaca> brb going to reboot into an older kernel to see if it's #22 that's breaking the freq
 * Facu eods
#smooth-operator 2020-03-19
<Chipaca> moin moin moin
<Facu> Muy buenos dÃ­as a todos!
<Chipaca> Facu: hola!
<Chipaca> Facu: how're things doing over there?
<Facu> Chipaca, all fine! silent in the morning
<Chipaca> Facu: i ventured into the supermarket yesterday and it I got flashbacks to '01
<Facu> Chipaca, empty gondolas? (it's "gondola" also in English, right?)
<Chipaca> Facu: it is, but isn't usually used that way
<Facu> Chipaca, which is the informal term?
<Chipaca> that's what you call them when you have to buy them, but in the supermarket people talk about the isles instead of the gondolas
<Chipaca> negative space kind of thing
<Chipaca> Facu: and people are saying "empty shelves" rather than "empty gondolas"
<Facu> ah, yes
<Facu> Chipaca, thanks
<Chipaca> it's a massive one, and there was no eggs, no bread, no rice, no fruit nor veg, no fresh meat
<Chipaca> spooky
<Facu> Chipaca, at least a very dense mist didn't form around the supermarket while you were in
<Chipaca> Facu: and then you come out and there's a sundial that you have to turn
<Facu> Chipaca, that sundial is also from The Mist?
 * Facu doesn't remember that
<Chipaca> *myst
<Chipaca> Facu: i think you're talking about the film
<Chipaca> Facu: i was talking about myst, the game :-)
<Facu> Chipaca, I recently played to it, with Felipe... one or two years ago
<Facu> Chipaca, it wasn't easy, such an old game https://blog.taniquetil.com.ar/posts/0775/
<Chipaca> Facu: so much cd swapping
<Facu> Chipaca, btw, I'm staying a little away of https://github.com/canonical/operator/pull/146 (so many conversations in that PR) ... we're landing all that and working from there, right?
<Chipaca> Facu: that's landing, soon(tm), yes
<Chipaca> CPUs still stuck at 800MHz, I've talked with Dell, they are impressed and will send somebody out
<Chipaca> â¦ which feels like a weird thing to do tbh
<Facu> Chipaca, remember when they send a person to change my screen, we were sprinting at your "office"?
<Chipaca> Facu: vaguely, yes
<Facu> https://blog.taniquetil.com.ar/posts/0403/
<Chipaca> man that office was nice
<Facu> Chipaca, what do you think? https://trello.com/c/neWk2uEt/2-docs-examples#comment-5e7371cca6c1e0193935c069
<Chipaca> looking
<Chipaca> Facu: intro/tutorial for people new to charms and juju in general, and intro/tutorial for people new to op fmk but familiar with charmaamramrs
<Chipaca> Facu: yes yes yes
<Chipaca> Facu: yes
<Chipaca> Facu: python's docs' way of saying "this changed in version XYZ" rocks
<Chipaca> Go's, not so much
<Chipaca> Facu: had you seen that labels in trello can be made colourblind-friendly, and it's afaict a personal global setting?
<Chipaca> i turned it on for our board, and then noticed all the other boards also preserved that look
<Facu> Chipaca, yes, love that setting :)
<Chipaca> Facu: this card in particular is diagonal stripes down, right?
 * Chipaca hopes it's not unique for each person :-)
<Facu> Chipaca, diagonal like \
<Facu> green?
<Facu> mustard?
<Facu> could be a weird orange, too
<Chipaca> Facu: yes, diagonal like \
<Chipaca> phew
<Chipaca> :)
<Chipaca> Facu: d'oh
<Chipaca> Facu: get back in there
<Chipaca> going for a run before light runs out, bbl
<Chipaca> back
<Facu> Chipaca, still around?
<Facu> (we can talk tomorrow, not blocked)
<niemeyer> Facu: Hey hey
<niemeyer> Facu: Anything I can help with?
<Facu> niemeyer, actually, yes (different thing).. is there a way for juju to "ask" something to the charm? like sending an event for the charm to provide some information, and the charm answer with some value
<Facu> (thanks)
<niemeyer> Facu: juju as in the CLI?
<niemeyer> Facu: actions
<Facu> 1' doorbell
<niemeyer> Facu: juju run-action --help
 * Facu is back
<Facu> niemeyer, juju as in its core; but if it can do it to support "actions", it indeed can do it :)
<Facu> niemeyer, thanks!
<niemeyer> Facu: Not entirely sure I understand what you're trying to do, but glad it helped :)
<Facu> niemeyer, I want to understand if it's feasible to have a command like "juju charm-pdb"; juju would ask the charm in which port it has a rpdb listening, open a port through ssh, and maybe even connect a terminal/telnet to that port through the tunnel
<niemeyer> Facu: I suggest looking bit deeper into juju debug-hook
<Facu> niemeyer, will do, thanks!
<niemeyer> Facu: It's a much nicer workflow than that
<niemeyer> Facu: You do debug-hook, and it handles the entire interaction for you
<niemeyer> Facu: Drops you into the exact right place, including doing something that is pretty boring to do right: waiting for the right moment
<niemeyer> Facu: Look into the implementation and you'll get what that means in more detail
<Facu> great
<niemeyer> Facu: Would be nice to have something like along the lines of "juju debug-hook --breakpoint"
<niemeyer> Facu: and instead of stopping in the hook itself, it would stop inside the code
<Facu> indeed
<niemeyer> Facu: We should be able to easily get that working by making it set some sort of environment variable while the hook runs, and the framework would interpret it and do the Python part
<Chipaca> Facu: i'm around now fwiw
 * Facu eods
#smooth-operator 2020-03-20
<Chipaca> moin moin
<Chipaca> I'm working today, after all
<Chipaca> but, the dell engineer will be here shortly to rip the guts out of my main laptop
<Chipaca> if it takes more than an hour i'll use my secondary
<Chipaca> otherwise, if i'm not on irc, telegram or signal work
<niemeyer> Chipaca: Morning, and good luck :)
<Chipaca> behold the majesty of all my megahertz
<niemeyer> Chipaca: Do you know what time the guy/girl is supposed to show up?
<niemeyer> Maybe already there? :)
<Chipaca> niemeyer: all sorted now :)
<niemeyer> Chipaca: Cool, no worries then.. I was going to suggest moving the standup earlier in case there was a chance of overlap
<niemeyer> Chipaca: Btw, can we please rename it to "Charmcraft standup"?
 * Chipaca renames it to "stand up and dance around"
<Chipaca> brb, update needs a reboot
<Chipaca> niemeyer: any progress on reviewing the testing harness?
<niemeyer> Chipaca: Yeah, I was hoping to cover that today in the standup, but I now realize Jam is out today
<niemeyer> Chipaca: The most elegant approach seems to be supporting both ends of it
<niemeyer> Chipaca: We might have a couple of options.. one of them is having per method flags, and the other is a more global enable/disable events
<niemeyer> Global is probably better.. not sure about what the default should be
<niemeyer> Maybe emitting?
<niemeyer> Also, it should likely be named emit instead of trigger, as that's what we already use everywhere
<niemeyer> Also shorter, but that's just a bonus of consistency
<Chipaca> :-)
<niemeyer> Not exactly the reply I expected
<Chipaca> >:(
<Chipaca> better?
<Chipaca> niemeyer: sorry, i read it as a status dump, didn't think you were actually asking me there
<Chipaca> niemeyer: I think john was slightly in favour of not emitting by default, but i might have misunderstood. I do think there is value in both approaches, and if we can support both that is the right approach
<niemeyer> Yeah, it seems easy to support both, and indeed it's the best of both worlds
<Chipaca> wrt which to do by default, i don't know which would be more surprising
<niemeyer> The problem with emitting always is that it becomes harder to create specific sequences of events
<Chipaca> the 'set things up, now be alive, now test' seems to flow naturally
<Chipaca> with the other approach being just to ask it to be alive before setting things up
<Chipaca> conversely, 'refrain from emitting, set things up, start emitting, test' seems more awkward
<Chipaca> hm
<Chipaca> niemeyer: so the emit-by-default only makes sense if we're sure that's what people will be using most of the time
<niemeyer> It's a bit unfortunate that we don't have a chance of getting it wrong and then fixing it
<Facu> Muy buenos dÃ­as a todos!
<Chipaca> well, we kinda do
<Chipaca> Facu: salut!
<niemeyer> Facu: Hey, good morning
<Facu> hola Chipaca, niemeyer, happy friday!
<Chipaca> Facu: likewise!
<Facu> Chipaca, I'm curious on what evil had the laptop
<Chipaca> ni ideq
<Chipaca> they changed the motherboard and it works again
<Facu> Chipaca, ah, ok
<Facu> it was the motherboard, then! jeje
<Chipaca> or the cpu (soldered on)
<Chipaca> or the thermal paste
<Chipaca> who knows
<Facu> Chipaca, at least they changed something, it's not that they used a magic wand or a sonic screwdriver and that was all
<Chipaca> aye
<Chipaca> niemeyer: i seem to remember you mentioning that there was a document about the next-gen charm tool, particularly around verbs
<Chipaca> with maybe some workflows worked out?
<Chipaca> niemeyer: if so, i can haz?
<Chipaca> if not, booooooooo i coulda used that :)
<niemeyer> Chipaca: Let me find it
<niemeyer> Chipaca: The focus was juju and snap themselves, so I'm not entirely sure about the quality of the charmcraft details
<Chipaca> ah, ok
<niemeyer> Chipaca: This is one:
<niemeyer> If only copy and paste worked..
<niemeyer> https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1CFl26rmUIKzH3qgBSZ6FbxU8Z0JEDNMTyYwx_CBzgYw
<niemeyer> This is another one:
<niemeyer> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-N_Zkmma9H2R0TfvpGbS9yuNExnMrIIA-WcLn75DBw8
<Chipaca> nice
<Chipaca> thanks
 * Facu bookmarks
<Facu> ah, yes, I was involved in the second
<Facu> (with other hat in my head, though)
<facubatista> one "idea" or "concept" is WHAT from one place to other? "transported"? "carried"?
<Chipaca> facubatista: infected :-)
<facubatista> je
<facubatista> niemeyer, how can I edit these pages? https://discourse.jujucharms.com/t/charm-writing/1260 (or suggest changes?) I already found two types
<facubatista> *typos
<niemeyer> facubatista: Commenting on the topic, or having indeed having access to edit it
<facubatista> It looks I don't have access, indeed
<facubatista> thought about commenting, but these topics don't have any reply
<niemeyer> They should.. if you raise something and nobody responds, that's something we ought to fix
<facubatista> I just replied both entries, let's see how it goes
<facubatista> aghh, "New in version 3.7.", wanted to use that! :p
 * facubatista eods, and eows! see you all on Wednesday!!
