#ubuntu-accessibility 2010-08-30
<`marianne`> hiya
<Pendulum> heya
<AlanBell> boo
<`marianne`> my disabilities don't actually tend to require accessibility software, i hope that doesn't stop me being welcome in here? hehe
<AlanBell> everyone is welcome
<`marianne`> that wasn't an entirely serious comment but yay :)
<maco> there's some temporarily able-bodied people here too :) 
<AlanBell> TheMuso: webczat was asking last night about using gui admin tools with orca, anything run with sudo and it all goes silent. I found a blueprint relating to it, is there any progress you know of, and does it work in vinux?
<Pendulum> `marianne`: I only use accessibility software rarely (well, less than i should), but everyone's welcome :)
<`marianne`> i'm hoping that my anxiety causes a large portion of the tiredness problems i have, that'll make me more capable of doing the things i'd like to when they get my meds right :)
 * Pendulum was given one of those non-lecture lectures by a doc today about typing too much
<`marianne`> i did actually have problems finding a screen magnifier i liked in ubuntu
<Pendulum> `marianne`: good luck with that :)
<`marianne`> Pendulum, switch to dvorak, problem solved? :P
<maco> Pendulum: you need a touch interface with swiping, like that one iphone app?
<AlanBell> swype!
<`marianne`> i have actually found i get a lot less pain from typing after i switched to dvorak, even if the speed increases weren't significant
<maco> thats the android version right?
<Pendulum> `marianne`: the problem isn't location of keys, it's kinda complicated
<maco> i wasnt sure if that was a swipey keyboard or the swipey unlock's name, so i didnt say it :P
<AlanBell> maco: yes, I don't have an iPhone
<Pendulum> no, I need dasher to work and to have the patience to use it
<maco> dasher's the speech to text?
<`marianne`> Pendulum, sorry if my suggestion couldn't help though... although the less-pain-from-typing thing really was significant for me
<`marianne`> ...then, rather than though
<Pendulum> `marianne`: it's cool :) I've just got really complicated issues and I don't expect most people to understand (and you definitely recommended what most people would)
<Pendulum> Dasher is the altnate input using mouse that isn't an on-screen keyboard
<AlanBell> maco: dasher is a novel type of on screen keyboard, letters fly in from the side and you point at them, the size of the letters varies probabalistically
<AlanBell> and it crashes
<`marianne`> complicated issues, so much "fun" (speaking as someone who's issues are kinda complicated too)
<maco> O_O
<maco> this sounds like a fun program, if it worked
<Pendulum> maco: http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/dasher/
<`marianne`> Pendulum, so what kind of typing interface works best for you?
<AlanBell> maco: I got it to crash when running under gdb, I know what line number it segfaults on, I have no clue how to fix the damn thing
<maco> AlanBell: what languge?
<AlanBell> C
<Pendulum> `marianne`: one that isn't typing. I have a condition called Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome so all my joints are hypermobile. This includes my hands
<maco> is there a bug report in lp? subscribe me to it and put the file and line number
<Pendulum> `marianne`: so when I press on keys, the joints in my fingers bend backwards
<`marianne`> dasher looks really quite cool
<`marianne`> eep
<`marianne`> is it painful?
<Pendulum> so that's why I probably shouldn't be typing :-/
<Pendulum> eventually, yes
<Pendulum> but not in the same way as RSIs like carpal tunnel are
<`marianne`> i hope they're able to find better ways of treating it, then
<Pendulum> meh, pain meds and probably bracing
<AlanBell> maco: subscribed you, just need to fire up a different laptop to get the line number and update the bug
<`marianne`> with all sorts of cloning techniques going on for all sorts, the next few decades are a time to be hopeful? :)
<maco> AlanBell: k thanks
<Pendulum> `marianne`: tbh, there's a lot about EDS that I don't care if I get rid of or keep. And it'd be really complicated for them to "fix" since they haven't located all the genes which cause it yet
<Pendulum> `marianne`: I'm mostly unconcerned. I'm happy to find management techniques and get on with stuff
<`marianne`> ok :)
<`marianne`> it doesn't sound that fun though
<Pendulum> meh. i can do freaky bendy things. that can be amusing
<Pendulum> even if I'm not supposed to do them
<maco> doing freaky bendy things is fun
<maco> people's faces!
<Pendulum> exactly!
<maco> (i bend in all the directions that arent considered flexible and none of the ones that are useful for gymnastics)
<Pendulum> maco: sounds like me
<`marianne`> see i'd just hide behind my hands from freaky bendy things
<`marianne`> if people do things like that it just...
 * maco cant touch toes
<`marianne`> well, makes me hide hehe
<Pendulum> maco: ah, okay. I can touch toes, but most of my other stuff is "odd"
<`marianne`> i just saw... well... i'm not sure whether i just saw a freakishly huge moth or a small nocturnal hummingbird...
<maco> Pendulum: put your foot over your hip?
<Pendulum> maco: that's not normal?
<maco> :)
<`marianne`> but i'm pretty sure there's no hummingbirds in england
<maco> i used to hook mine under my ribs when i was a kid
<`marianne`> in the wild at least
<maco> then i stopped being dangerously underweight
<Pendulum> not being dangerously underweight is good
<`marianne`> with my height i'm supposed to be a minimum of 12 stone, i've been under 7 before... that was scary
<`marianne`> and then i stopped being vegan
<maco> oh yeah...that seems like the wrong way to do vegan
<`marianne`> vegan diet is not easy to maintain when you don't have the energy to prepare meals
<maco> yeah...i could see that
<`marianne`> there's not exactly wide availability of vegan ready meals
<maco> depends where you are i guess
<AlanBell> maco: line 686 of Src/DasherCore/DasherModel.cpp
<AlanBell> and sometimes at a few other places where oldnote->Parent() pops up
<maco> though being lactose intolerant i can get by with things that are lactose-free but have casein, while that knocks out a bunch of Amy's stuff for vegans
<`marianne`> maco, probably true
<AlanBell> it only happens in direct mode, from the command line "dasher -a direct" which puts it in useful on-screen keyboard mode
<maco> my last flatmate was allergic to casein and eggs
<maco> AlanBell: ok
<maco> i dont think i ever saw him cook
<AlanBell> works OK for a minute or so, then your keyboard segfaults :-(
<maco> he ate out a /lot/ though... i couldnt keep up
<`marianne`> i do want to cook more
<`marianne`> i enjoy it, and i make a lasagne of awesomeness
<`marianne`> much better than the ready meal lasagne i'm about to eat
<maco> i go for the "make a big batch then use the microwave for a week" method of feeding myself
<`marianne`> well, my lasagne tends to be enough for three days, but the problem is it's so good i often eat two days worth after i cook it
<maco> hehe i know what ya mean
 * AlanBell likes lasagne
<`marianne`> and i don't currently have a working freezer
<maco> oh yeah...that sucks
<maco> alright i have to leave work now
<maco> laters
<`marianne`> take care maco
<AlanBell> `marianne`: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam <- links to all the UK stuff
<`marianne`> ty :)
<`marianne`>  at first i was mildly annoyed that the wine glasses i bought were plastic, but with disability induced clumsiness, it's turned out to be a great thing
<Pendulum> heh
<`marianne`> they'd be broken many times over, otherwise
<`marianne`> just glad i've never knocked a full one over
<`marianne`> do pci wireless/bluetooth cards tend to have the necessary drivers under ubuntu?
<TheMuso> AlanBell: It should work in vinux, and if you use an accessibility profile when you install Ubuntu, i.e the braille or screen reader profiles, sudo and GUI admin tools work, as long as you don't use gksu.
#ubuntu-accessibility 2010-08-31
<webczat> Hey, is there someone here who knows how to make synaptics be available for me if i'm using orca?
<AlanBell> hi webczat 
<AlanBell> I asked TheMuso about it
<AlanBell> < TheMuso> AlanBell: It should work in vinux, and if you use an accessibility profile when you install Ubuntu, i.e the braille or 
<AlanBell>                  screen reader profiles, sudo and GUI admin tools work, as long as you don't use gksu.
<webczat> but, because i was using pendrive without ability to install gfxboot, i was unable to select accessibility profiles.
<webczat> actually, i set accessibility functions to true in gconf, and as mandatory.
<webczat> wait
<webczat> if i set it as mandatory, it may work now :o
<webczat> because it may be the problem of a part of it
<webczat> s/of/or
<webczat> AlanBell: It's the best to ask TheMuso about, if I was unable to use startup disk creator, and I set accessibility manually to on and as mandatory, should I do anything else to make it work?
<webczat> because it does not
<AlanBell> really not sure, I will try later on a desktop that I installed with the accessibility profile. The computers I am using at the moment I just started orca on, but didn't do it from the installer. Not sure what difference that makes.
<webczat> AlanBell: that does not. but i think that accessibility profile has some specialistic gconf settings or others.
<webczat> AlanBell: for example i think it sets /desktop/gnome/interface/accessibility to true and as default (or mandatory)
<webczat> but it's not the only thing it does
<webczat> i'm pretty sure
<webczat> I sent a list to orca list, describing my problem as fully as i was able to do it
<`marianne`> massive amounts of anxiety really suck...
#ubuntu-accessibility 2010-09-01
<kinouchou> Hi
<AlanBell> o/ kinouchou 
<kinouchou> hello AlanBell
#ubuntu-accessibility 2010-09-02
<AlanBell> Hi pendulum I am tying this using dasher on maverick and I can't make it crash 
<AlanBell> I looked at the code there has been a new release and the bit that was crashing has been totally rewriten
<AlanBell> back to regular keyboard now
<AlanBell> 3 minutes per line is a bit slow
<AlanBell> that was with dasher -a into irssi, it works fine, the DeleteCharacters bit it was segfaulting on is now totally not there
<AlanBell> it is possible to do /window 20<return> but a little hard still, it thinks it unlikely you want to do a newline without a full stop first
<AlanBell> nigelb: how do I mark bug 586558 as fixed in Maverick?
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 586558 in dasher (Ubuntu) "dasher crashed with SIGSEGV in Dasher::CDasherModel::DeleteCharacters() (affects: 2) (heat: 121)" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/586558
<nigelb> AlanBell: nominate for release Maverick and mark it as fix released
<AlanBell> done, thanks
<vish> nigelb: why nominate thats for older releases?
<nigelb> AlanBell: gah, err, nominate for lucid and maverick and once accepted, mark the maverick one as fixed
<vish> AlanBell: you can just mark it as fixed and comment "Fixed in Maverick"  adding a version number will be a bonus
<nigelb> vish: we want to track the same bug for lucid too
<AlanBell> ok, nominated for both and set back to confirmed
<vish> nigelb: still , it first needs to be marked fixed , the main task is for the devel version ie maverick
<nigelb> vish: yes, but when you 2 tasks, having one as fixed relased makes sense doesn't it?
<vish> the lucid tasks will be opened later..
<vish> nigelb: no, but that is how it works. first we mark it fixed , the main task is always > devel release
<vish> current one..
<nigelb> vish: Ah, correct. /me kicks self
<nigelb> today is just not going right
<AlanBell> so it should be fix released?
<AlanBell> and nominated for Lucid?
<vish> AlanBell: yup, the nominate for release we use mainly for SRU
<vish> yup
<AlanBell> ok, done
<AlanBell> don't think I can withdraw the Maverick nomination
<vish> no , you've branded the bug ;p
<nigelb> AlanBell: don't worry, it will be rejected by the powers that be
<vish> AlanBell: if you want to follow through for a SRU , finding the exact patch that fixed it would help.. usually unknown bug fixes dont make it for an SRU
<nigelb> Even known bug fixes without someone prodding doesn't make it for SRU
<vish> hmm , but reading the AlanBell's comment , it seems it might not be a SRU candidate..  he mentions a rewrite.. 
<AlanBell> vish: I have a feeling it is a bit of an architectural change rather than a patch
<vish> :)
<AlanBell> the function that was crashing no longer exists
<nigelb> oh, well
<nigelb> AlanBell: nominations accepted/rejected :)
<AlanBell> great, thanks
#ubuntu-accessibility 2010-09-04
<AlanBell> is there an accessibility team reporting page?
 * nigelb looks
 * AlanBell couldn't find one
<nigelb> nope
<AlanBell> Pendulum: do we want one?
<nigelb> we do
<nigelb> nice to let everyone know what we're up to :)
<nigelb> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BuildingCommunity/TeamReporting
<nigelb> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BuildingCommunity/TeamReporting/HowTo
<Pendulum> we should have one
<Pendulum> i've just not gotten around to doing it before :P
<nigelb> :D
<Pendulum> AlanBell: oh, I think I asked this before and didn't get an answer. were the links spit out by meetingology valid for grabbing logs?
<AlanBell> fairly valid
<AlanBell> http://mootbot.libertus.co.uk should be browseable and have everything in it
 * nigelb lols at 'meetingology'
<AlanBell> the study of meetings:-)
<Pendulum> ta :)
<AlanBell> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEfKEzX9QLE
<nigelb> hahah
<AlanBell> text version http://centuryads.blogspot.com/2007/01/you-got-ology-1987-launch-of-bt-beattie.html
<nigelb> wow, to think about how innovative they were
<marianne> oops
<`marianne`> xchat really really really needs individual nick settings per network... the mac version has it
<`marianne`> ah, now i feel silly
<`marianne`> the options are there, but hidden if "use global information" is ticked
<AlanBell> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/TeamReports
<AlanBell> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/TeamReports/10/August if you have stuff to add to it
 * Pendulum adds meeting date/logs :)
<AlanBell> great
<Pendulum> nigelb: are you still awake?
<Pendulum> TheMuso: before I forget to ask, what ever happened to trying to set up a gobby server?
#ubuntu-accessibility 2010-09-05
<nigelb> Pendulum: I am now
<Pendulum> nigelb: I have to go to dinner now, chat when I get back?
<nigelb> sure
<qu|x> hi all :)
<Pendulum> hi qu|x 
<qu|x> Pendulum: Is it the channel for purblind people? :)
<qu|x> Evening, school, I'm going to sleep!
<qu|x> Bye all
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-08-29
<Pendulum> charlie-tca: are you around?
<Pendulum> (just for a quick PM)
<charlie-tca> sure
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-08-31
<Fudge> ehlo guys
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-09-01
<AlanBell> http://www.theopensourcerer.com/2011/08/31/going-dotty
<AlanBell> anyone tried an orca install of Oneiric beta1 yet?
<charlie-tca> nope
<charlie-tca> Tracker shows it has not been done
<AlanBell> Bug #180561 is now officially pissing me off
<ubot2`> Launchpad bug 180561 in gfxboot-theme-ubuntu "The liveCD should beep when the boot prompt shows out" [Wishlist,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/180561
<AlanBell> given up on the install for the moment, it seems that gfxboot was written for suse and in the opensuse bootloader you can play a wav file (fsfsong.wav) and a .mod file which plays happy birthday
<AlanBell> just burning that to a disc now, so I can prove that the bootloader can make a sound then I will try and hack the gfxboot-ubuntu-theme to make a noise
<AlanBell> yes, it works
<AlanBell> gfxboot can make a noise, because it does on opensuse
<charlie-tca> I think we discussed that at UDS. The decision to not have sounds play for everyone was made a long time ago
<AlanBell> meh
<AlanBell> lets see what happens with a patch
<charlie-tca> I think it goes with the decision that removing anything the able bodied user doesn't need from the menus is called "de-cluttering"
<AlanBell> and that one has been fixed
<AlanBell> and is past UI freeze
<charlie-tca> Well, we still have 6 weeks for them to kill things in the menu
<charlie-tca> But I did get onboard in the release notes as a good thing to have in Xubuntu Menus!
<AlanBell> nice :)
<valorie> I thought Mark was on board with the push for accessability?
<valorie> I mean, I was there for his UDS keynote
<valorie> "de-cluttering" is great, but not at the expense of a11y
<charlie-tca> Yeah, we hear the speeches every release
<Pendulum> well, have they mentioned a11y other than the once?
<charlie-tca> The de-cluttering was a few releases back
<charlie-tca> and there have been bugs for at least three releases to get Onboard back in the menu
<Pendulum> they didn't mention it in opening stuff for Maverick (back when Unity was first announced at all and when it was just going to be netbooks)
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-09-02
<valorie> that's very disappointing
<valorie> I did suspect something was wrong when they didn't hire you, Pendulum
<valorie> or make charlie-tca full-time a11y
<valorie> or something
<Pendulum> valorie: charlie-tca isn't a Canonical employee. TheMuso is and they've contracted work out to API, but that's it for people getting paid to work on a11y for Unity/Ubuntu as far as I know
<Pendulum> it's slightly more complicated in that I know a lot of the Unity devels who aren't specifically a11y have worked on aspects of it, but AFAIK there is no one being paid to coordinate/work on a11y fulltime
<TheMuso> One of the biggest problems with  unity and a11y IMO is the constantly changing state of unity itself.
<TheMuso> Unity-2d has been better for the most part, since unity-2d uses QT, and QT a11y is coming along swimmingly.
<TheMuso> So there is no constantly changing frameworks underlying unity-2d to be affected.
<TheMuso> However, there are several bugs I filed against unity-2d for a11y issues that have yet to be fixed.
<valorie> are you working with fregl on those?
<TheMuso> valorie: They are not QT issues, they are to do with unity-2d itself.
<valorie> ah
<TheMuso> Personally, I feel I could focus much more on a11y if I was doing a11y full time, but that is currently not the case.
<valorie> I wish I had time to be more of an advocate/tester/etc.
<valorie> it's so important
<TheMuso> AlanBell: Oneiric has some new functionality in ubiquity that now allows us to launch profiles from the first installer screen.
<TheMuso> This works, but playing a sound at that screen still appears to be broken, something I need to fix.
<TheMuso> I also haven't widely announced it, and the orca install test instructions will need to be updated.
<TheMuso> Beta 2 should have a much better experience.
<AlanBell> TheMuso: so will it still display access.pcx in gfxboot and expect you to hit a key when you see it?
<TheMuso> AlanBell: None of that has changed.
<TheMuso> AlanBell: So I guess long term, we should completely ditch the accessibility options in gfxboot.
<AlanBell> so with the ubiquity stuff can you just put the disk in, leave it for sufficient time then hit a key to start orca?
<AlanBell> I don't mind a lack of a beep if it will sit there forever
<AlanBell> the problem is hitting a key in a small time window with no audio cue
<AlanBell> well my attempts to do the orca install are not going well
<AlanBell> it wouldn't start ubiquity properly, when selecting the screen reader profile
<AlanBell> now installing with eyes and will try just getting around the desktop with orca
<AlanBell> http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/k2nvl/we_are_the_ubuntu_unity_development_team_we_3/c2h40a8
<AlanBell> \o/ \o/
<Pendulum> :)
 * AlanBell should really go to bed now
<AlanBell> night all o/
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-09-04
<Fudge> nite AlanBell 
<paul_h1> hi, anyone about? I tried the first beta of Oneric today. when the CD stopped spinning I pressed ctrl+s and Orca started. chose the Try It option and gnome started and I heard "Welcome to Orca, Desktop" then gnome locked up completely. is it not working yet?
<AlanBell> paul_h1: it is a bit of a mess still
<AlanBell> I didn't know the magic keypress was ctrl+s, I will give that a go
<AlanBell> at the moment there are multiple problems including the global menus not being keyboard accessible (for anyone)
<paul_h1> AlanBell: I switched to the at-spi2 packages on my installed natty system and have the same problem. gnome locks up as soon as orca starts. but on the installed system I can switch to a text console and restart gdm which gets everything working
<AlanBell> I believe there is some work being done to improve this and Beta 2 should be less broken
<paul_h1> hopefully :-) on the + side the keystroke to start orca at the try it/install screen is working and brltty is being started automatically now for my usb display
<AlanBell> yeah, quite pleased that the "start orca" sequence no longer involves hitting space when you see a symbol on screen before it goes away!
<paul_h1> me too. could never get that working
#ubuntu-accessibility 2013-08-26
<Fudge> what is your install method and on what OS Texou 
<Fudge> there is not any change to the synth, just the platform it installs on
#ubuntu-accessibility 2013-08-29
<Fudge> TheMuso  who monitors this cahnnel anymore
<Fudge> channel
#ubuntu-accessibility 2015-08-26
<erkan^> Good afternoon
<erkan^> is someone there?
