#ubuntu-manual 2010-02-08
<vish> dutchie / godbyk is humphrey on a vacation or ... havent seen him around in a while , activity in the ML seems low too.
<vish> *: is
<godbyk> vish: He's switching ISPs and having some issues, so he's been offline lately.
<vish> ah, cool
#ubuntu-manual 2010-02-09
<godbyk> :q
<godbyk> Heh.. wrong window. :)
<wolter> no news about benjamin
<wolter> ?
<godbyk> wolter: I haven't heard anything yet.  Just that he's between ISPs.
<wolter> oh
<godbyk> So what's involved in this alpha release tomorrow?
#ubuntu-manual 2010-02-10
<godbyk> Hey, humphreybc's alive!
<humphreybc> i am!
<humphreybc> sorry had to change internet plans so internet was down for a few days
<humphreybc> how's everything going?
<godbyk> not too bad.  I've spent most the day playing with my new Nexus One phone.
<godbyk> are there any major formatting things that need to be done before the alpha release?
<humphreybc> not really, alpha is today isn't it?
<humphreybc> technically whatever we have now becomes alpha
<humphreybc> i think just clean anything up to "release" standard. but it's only alpha so not a biggie
<humphreybc> we'll probably have a meeting this weekend to sort out the learning day and other stuff
<humphreybc> oh and our goals for beta
<godbyk> humphreybc: What needs to be done to 'release' alpha?
<humphreybc> not a lot. tonight i'll just build the latest revision and stick it on our launchpad download thing
<humphreybc> that should suffice for a "release"
<humphreybc> i'll also email some media and tell them of the release
<godbyk> I guess I'd better update the cover page real quick then. :-)
<humphreybc> sure
<humphreybc> what with?
<humphreybc> or are you going to change the version to 0.3 alpha
<godbyk> Yeah, there's a slightly modified version with the 0.3 alpha tag on it and the new title.
<humphreybc> swell
<humphreybc> yeah update that then
<humphreybc> what have i missed the past couple of days anyway?
<godbyk> Hmm.. not too much activity in the channel, I don't think.  Let me look real quick.
<godbyk> Yeah, nothing of note here that I can see.
<humphreybc> cool
<godbyk> Gah! It'd be nice if inkscape did a better job converting SVGs to PDFs.
<godbyk> I may have to use the PNG for now (so it doesn't look so ugly).
<godbyk> humphreybc: Okay, It's using the new cover page now.  You might try compiling it real quick to make sure there aren't any problems
<humphreybc> sweet
<godbyk> I haven't looked at it or anything -- just made sure it compiled. :-)
<humphreybc> new title with that font looks terible
<godbyk> I haven't looked at it.
<godbyk> I don't think that's going to be the final title page anyway.
<godbyk> Just another interim (with the right version # and date on it).
<humphreybc> okay who's here?
<dutchie> o/
<humphreybc> lol
<dutchie> seamless transition
<humphreybc> indeed
<humphreybc> hmm
<humphreybc> oh well i'll email the list
<humphreybc> right well i'm going to get up and shower then grab some food. i'll be back in about an hour and i'll get some stuff done
<dutchie> humphreybc: it's still today here...
<humphreybc> hmm?
<humphreybc> it's midday thursday here :D
<dutchie> if you choose a timezone carefully, we can make the release on time
<humphreybc> xD
<humphreybc> we should totally time the manual release to the same hour as lucid
<humphreybc> we'll have to create a website too... something like www.ubuntumanual.org
<humphreybc> probably already taken
<humphreybc> ah yes it is
<humphreybc> http://ubuntumanual.com/
<humphreybc> ugh
<humphreybc> bzr: ERROR: These branches have diverged. Use the missing command to see how.
<humphreybc> Use the merge command to reconcile them.
<dutchie> this is why I prefer git :)
<humphreybc> how do I remedy it?
<dutchie> read the list
<humphreybc> oh is that what they are talking about
<dutchie> the message marked "PLEASE READ THIS NOTICE" :)
<humphreybc> yep
<humphreybc> got it
<humphreybc> lol
<humphreybc> godbyk - thorwil should contact you at some point today or tomorrow with a new title page
<humphreybc> replace the current one with his one, then we can let the media go nuts
<godbyk> humphreybc: Okay.
<humphreybc> oh cool you're actually there
<godbyk> I am. :-)
<godbyk> Just had to summon me. :)
<humphreybc> swell. also, could you fix the URL wrap on the first page of the license? it's bugging me...
<humphreybc> :D
<godbyk> humphreybc: Anything for you!
<humphreybc> haha
<humphreybc> i'm talking to jono bacon tomorrow over skype
<humphreybc> (ubuntu community manager)
<dutchie> I don't think you needed to clarify that
<dutchie> everyone knows who jono is \o/
<humphreybc> i'm not sure kevin does
<dutchie> he even eclipses all the other jonos
<humphreybc> do you godbyk?
<godbyk> I know who Jono is, yeah.
<humphreybc> anyway, what are the main things from the backend that i need to tell him?
<humphreybc> what can we output to besides pdf?
<humphreybc> are translations automated yet?
<dutchie> you can build them independently
<humphreybc> and does rosetta get updated automatically when we update the branch?
<dutchie> if we update the pot file
<dutchie> which I haven't done for a while
<humphreybc> hmm okay
<humphreybc> so that stuff about the strings getting overwritten, is that our fault or rosetta?
<dutchie> probably more ours
<dutchie> but mainly because quite a lot has been changing
<humphreybc> okay
<dutchie> hmm, po4a has decided not to work
<godbyk> Right now it's PDF only for output.
<godbyk> Translations are semi-automated.  There's still a lot of work to go into them.
<godbyk> Especially for non-Latin scripts.
<humphreybc> okay cool. what outputs are we aiming to produce by the final?
<godbyk> I'd say just PDF for now.
<humphreybc> and is it possible to output to docbook or ASCII?
<humphreybc> okay cool. roadmap for future outputs - HTML5?
<godbyk> There is some TeX -> HTML conversion tools that we can play with, but I think that PDF should be the priority.
<humphreybc> yep sweet
<humphreybc> jono will want to know how we're going to integrate with other projects that use different tools
<godbyk> What kind of integration?  What other projects?
<humphreybc> ubuntu learning is the main one, i think they use ascii
<humphreybc> and possibly the docs project down the track which use docbook
<godbyk> It seems to me that the ubuntu manual project has a fairly simple focus: to produce a great 'getting started' manual that can be printed (or purchased as a printed book).
<humphreybc> yep but if we actually do produce something that's really cool, we want to be able to share it with other projects that are interested
<humphreybc> because _good_ content is valuable :)
<godbyk> I think someone overwrote or reverted some of my recent changes.
<dutchie> why do useful things only ever happen late at night for me?
<dutchie> :(
<humphreybc> godbyk: oh no!
<humphreybc> you can revert to previous revisions though
<humphreybc> something like bzr revert 205
<godbyk> yeah, they weren't big changes.. just the cover page, I think.
<humphreybc> where 205 is the revision number, obviously
<godbyk> Let me see how far back things went.
<godbyk> hmm.. weird.  did I just not push or something?  I don't see it listed in main branch.
<godbyk> oh well, let me fix this and push again.
<godbyk> humphreybc: Okay, I just pushed the title page update I had previously (not the one I'm waiting for thorwil on) and fixed the URL in the license.
<godbyk> humphreybc: If you find any other bugs, feel free to ping me with them.
<humphreybc> neat
<humphreybc> yep i'm going to comb through the manual today and do a bit of a spit and polish
<dutchie> OK, definitely time for bed
<dutchie> night all
#ubuntu-manual 2010-02-11
<humphreybc> nitgh
<godbyk> G'night, dutchie.
<humphreybc> godbyk: there's a couple of make errors in the latest revision
<godbyk> yep
<godbyk> I've fixed them but haven't pushed yet.
<humphreybc> swell
<godbyk> apparently no one compiles before they commit.
<godbyk> I'll push the fixes for you.. just a sec.
<humphreybc> nice
<godbyk> humphreybc: pushed.
<godbyk> let me know if there are still problems.
<godbyk> someone had renamed the 'around the desktop' chapter file, so that was missing.  I renamed it back.
<godbyk> also, someone used \option to specify the name of an option in a dialog box and there was no command for that, so I wrote one real quick.
<humphreybc> ahh ha
<humphreybc> gotcha
<thorwil> vish, godbyk: i got a mail from humphreybc asking me for a title page proposal
<thorwil> vish: i thought you took care of that and it was already in place?
<godbyk> thorwil: Yeah, he just told me that I should expect a title page from you soon.
<thorwil> godbyk: that was wishful thinking, then
<godbyk> lol.  I figured it was the result of some discussion between him and you.
<godbyk> Perhaps he hadn't seen the updated alpha title page yet.
<thorwil> no discussion happened
<thorwil> godbyk: what's the state of the internal layout and could you make a list of fonts in consideration?
<godbyk> I wanted to wait until after the alpha 'release' to really start hacking on the internal layout.  (I didn't want to accidentally break anything so close to the deadline.)
<godbyk> Font-wise, I'm currently trying to track down suitable fonts for the non-Latin scripts: Telugu, Arabic, Japanese, Greek, Russian, Chinese, etc.
<godbyk> Finding a typeface for the Latin (and extended Latin) scripts will be a lot easier.
<godbyk> So most of my time lately has been spent trying to get the translation stuff to work smoothly.
<godbyk> (Well, from the formatting end of things, at least.  I'll leave the po4a stuff up to dutchie.)
<thorwil> guess we should just check what free fonts with an extended latin set are available
<thorwil> as i consider to initiate a type-only title page design stage
<godbyk> thorwil: Yeah, it'd be good if we can make sure the title page and interior design are not at odds with each other.
<thorwil> make fails: http://pastebin.com/d3d9a948b
<thorwil> really nasty it doesn't honor ctrl-c
<godbyk> thorwil: I'm looking into it.
<godbyk> Seems people don't run make before committing.
<godbyk> thorwil: I just pushed a fix.  Try it now.
<godbyk> A few typos in the around-the-desktop chapter.
<thorwil> godbyk: works, ty
<godbyk> np
<vish> thorwil: heya.. its already there..
<thorwil> yeah, mailed Ben with both of you in CC
 * vish just read and replied 
<vish> thorwil: i think he wants different fonts
<thorwil> *shrug*
<godbyk> What's up?
<vish> meh , with no communication what can we keep guessing :/
<vish> godbyk: not sure what benjamin wants :s
<godbyk> ah, I'm not sure either.
<thorwil> vish: we'll see whence he replies
 * vish wonders if there is no web connectivity at all in the whole of nz apart from his home connection o.0
<thorwil> if/once, actually
<godbyk> He just said earlier: humphreybc> godbyk - thorwil should contact you at some point today or tomorrow with a new title page
<godbyk> didn't give any details.
<godbyk> heh.. he was on a bit earlier, so I think he's back online now.
<vish> godbyk: title pages proposals dont grow from trees ;) [well the pages do ;)]  and then we have wolter throwing up a new proposal and everyone says , yes we want that and no feedback or direction what to do ..
 * vish feels like a running headless chicken
<godbyk> vish: I hear ya!
<godbyk> Design-by-committee is evil.
<thorwil> i'm writing an email to the list
<thorwil> explaining the what and why of a design process and describing the current state of things
 * godbyk wonders if that'll go over like a lead balloon.
<godbyk> I think it needs to be done, though.
<vish> thorwil: how to apply kerning in inkscape? or rather is there an option?
<thorwil> vish: yes, it's a modifier key plus arrow keys right/left thing
<thorwil> not sure if it was alt or ctrl ...
 * vish hmm.. tries
<vish> ah , got it , its alt+
 * thorwil sends mail in 3 parts
<ianto> Anyone seen Ilya lately?
#ubuntu-manual 2010-02-12
<humphreybc> i just had a chat with jono on skype
<humphreybc> i'll email the list with details soon
<humphreybc> godbyk: ping
<humphreybc> anyone know how to merge in LP?
<godbyk> humphreybc: pong
<humphreybc> ah gidday
<humphreybc> how easy would it be for you to change the hyperlink colour of the contents to something other than bright blue?
<godbyk> Easy peasy.
<humphreybc> could you do that real quick and push? i'll update the file on my server then. I've emailed some blogs and they're probably going to blog about the alpha release
<godbyk> Sure.
<humphreybc> would be nicer if we could have a better looking contents because the bright blue is ugly :P
<godbyk> Heh.. it's actually DarkBlue. :-)
<humphreybc> lol
<godbyk> How about I switch all the colors to Ubuntu red or something?  Would that be better?
<humphreybc> yeh
<humphreybc> there's also a merge proposal on LP, if you could take a look at that too.. i've got work in a minute
<godbyk> A merge proposal? What do they want merged?
<humphreybc> some stuff in chapter 2
<humphreybc> let me know when you push the changes to the contents
<godbyk> humphreybc: Pushed.
<godbyk> Changed from 'bright' blue to brighter red. :-/
<humphreybc> sweet
<humphreybc> haha
<vish> godbyk / thorwil : http://imagebin.ca/view/SXGPBET6.html how's this font?
<vish> benjamin wanted different font from what we have now , so i switched to that^
<thorwil> vish: the "Ub" is unfortunate
<vish> thorwil: yeah , i already tried separating them.. more space?
<thorwil> vish: you could increase the tracking for the whole thing
<thorwil> just don't add space between only those 2 characters
<vish> nah , not space:)
<vish> thorwil: tracking only for the "Ubunutu" or for all the letters?
<thorwil> vish: all letters
<vish> hmm , k..
<thorwil> vish: you understand the difference between tracking and kerning?
<vish> yup , kinda
<thorwil> tracking is also called letter-spacing
<thorwil> referring to the spacing between all letters
<vish> thorwil: ah , i thought you earlier meant space [by spacebar]
<thorwil> while kerning is about pairs
<thorwil> btw, Ben assigned me to the Artwork/Screenshots/Diagrams blueprint
<thorwil> i unassigned myself because of the Scrrenshots/Diagrams part
<vish> yeah , noticed ;)
<thorwil> and his not bothering to ask first
<thorwil> vish: i also think you should have said No! to changing the font on the preliminary title page
 * thorwil continues some house work
<vish> :)
<komsas> hello guys, I'm thinking to be Lithuanian translation coordinator. I'm new with this position, so what I must know and do to be good coordinator?
<komsas> humphreybc: I think you can give me some guidelines..:)
<humphreybc> hi komsas, we don't really have translation coordinators at the moment - everything is all a bit messy with translations at the moment
<humphreybc> when we have our writing freeze on march 18th we'll be able to focus a lot of time into fixing the translations and appointing coordinators etc
<komsas> So you say to wait till march 18th?
<humphreybc> hmm, for the role of coordinator yes. for the meantime there are a lot of other things that you are welcome to help out with if you're looking for something to do
<komsas> I'm intresting with translations, main goal to ship lithuanian version till ubuntu release.
<komsas> humphreybc: thanks, so now I will work to catch best translator till march 18th.
<humphreybc> yep are you translating at the moment?
<komsas> yes, we will start soon.
<humphreybc> awesome
<humphreybc> any questions just flick me an email or find me in here
<humphreybc> my email is humphreybc@gmail.com
<komsas> I'm thinking to create launchpad gruop for lithuanian manual translators, what you think about this idea?
<komsas> ok, I will :)
<humphreybc> komsas: I'd prefer it if you didn't create another group
<humphreybc> we don't want 30+ ubuntu manual groups for all the translating teams
<humphreybc> but you're welcome to go and grab a part of the wiki
<humphreybc> perhaps: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/lithuanian
<komsas> Oh, nice :)
<humphreybc> dutchie, godbyk, thorwil, ping
<thorwil> pong
<humphreybc> thorwil: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/48hours
<thorwil> humphreybc: count me out
<humphreybc> why?
<thorwil> because i have other things to worry about
<humphreybc> righto, that's cool. I'll see if wolter wants to hold your class
<thorwil> he can't. he could hold his class, but not mine
<humphreybc> okay well I'd like to have a class that gives the artwork team a chance to explain things to everyone else
<thorwil> humphreybc: btw, you assigned me to that Artwork/Screenshots/Diagrams blueprint. i initially just wanted to help with th title page. suddenly i become team leader. ok so far. but i will not take on any further responsibility, while the current situation is already shaky
<thorwil> so i unassigned myself. screenshots? no
<humphreybc> okay, well if you don't want to be team leader then that's all good
<humphreybc> how do you mean shaky?
<thorwil> humphreybc: i guess you have to catch up on some mails on the list
<humphreybc> yep, can you summarize?
<thorwil> humphreybc: basically this: https://lists.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/msg00638.html
<thorwil> humphreybc: what i'm writing here might sound more dramatic than it actually is
<humphreybc> right. well I wouldn't go as far as calling that shaky. We've still got over two months till release, and to be honest, I wasn't even planning on thinking about artwork until halfway through march
<humphreybc> I think the actual content is in a worse position right now than the artwork
<humphreybc> but we'll get there
<humphreybc> we've done pretty damn well so far and most of the people in the ubuntu community are very impressed
<humphreybc> so I wouldn't worry too much :)
<thorwil> i simply see a huge gap between vish and me and the few people who recently provided feedback
<thorwil> and i feel the need to counteract the offer-your-finger-and-have-your-hand taken phenomenon ;)
<humphreybc> well, your in charge of the artwork team. you do what you think is best for the project. talk to me first and just okay anything important, but apart from that, I trust your ability to make the right decisions
<thorwil> humphreybc: how did you count "about 5 people" in the artwork team?
<humphreybc> i just guessed, there's you, vish, wolter and is kolorguild around?
<thorwil> no, never saw or heard anything of him again
<humphreybc> ah okay
 * humphreybc just counted the languages the manual is being translated into: 40!
<thorwil> humphreybc: how to handle translation of the title page text?
<humphreybc> ah yes the million dollar question
<humphreybc> honestly? i've been avoiding answering it because I don't know how we're going to do it!
<thorwil> humphreybc: i expect that we will have to do deal with each title page translation manually, to stay in control of the layout
<humphreybc> yeah that's probably going to be the case. I never predicted we would have so many translations
<thorwil> we will at least need a list of the title translated in all those languages
<thorwil> some of which we can't read at all
<humphreybc> True. We can email all the translators and ask them to translate that one string into their own language and put it on a wiki page somewhere
<thorwil> humphreybc: does the wiki support other scripts like Cyrillic?
<humphreybc> i'm not sure
<humphreybc> from a quick google search, i think yes
<thorwil> humphreybc: it might be better if we can get translators to create titlepage SVGs with the translations
<thorwil> humphreybc: less work for the few who can check the layout and less worry about issues with input methods and such
<thorwil> that means the page has to be 100% nailed down until we could do that
<humphreybc> yep, can we aim for a final title page design by March 18th?
<humphreybc> that's when we're freezing the writing and release beta. then all hands will be on screenshots and translations
<humphreybc> it'll be really busy, like, REALLY busy!
<thorwil> that should work
<humphreybc> yeah. we'll get there, it might just be a bit hectic
<humphreybc> thorwil: I just replied to the title page thread on the ML
<thorwil> humphreybc: that's very acceptable :)
<humphreybc> cool, happy?
<thorwil> just relieved ;)
<humphreybc> sweet
<humphreybc> so if you would like to talk to wolter at some point and come up with another design or two, then that would be awesome
<humphreybc> where are you from btw? I don't think I've ever asked
<thorwil> germany, north-west, not far from the Netherlands
<humphreybc> what city?
<humphreybc> I learnt german for 4 years in high school
<thorwil> mÃ¶nchengladbach
<humphreybc> my teacher was from Heidleberg
<humphreybc> not sure if that's the correct spelling
<thorwil> cool
<thorwil> heidelberg
<thorwil> humphreybc: can you say "streichholzschÃ¤chtelchen"?
<humphreybc> i can attempt it!
<thorwil> had 9 years of english classes. last 3 with a british lady
<humphreybc> oh cool
<humphreybc> did you see the agenda for the meeting tomorrow btw?
<thorwil> my spoken english is only a meager shadow of my written ... that's what happens if you read/write daily but talk like once a year, max
<thorwil> humphreybc: yes. can't think of something to add
<humphreybc> ah so not that many people speak english in your town?
<humphreybc> i can hardly speak german anymore
<humphreybc> ich sprechen ein bisschen deutsch
<humphreybc> can you make it to the meeting?
<thorwil> humphreybc: almost only natives here, germans don't speak english if they don't have to, although many have had there 6 or 9 years of classes
<humphreybc> dutchie: ping - check your facebook wall
<humphreybc> thorwil: yes i've heard that. I haven't been to europe before but i'd love to go
<thorwil> humphreybc: meeting time is fine for me
<humphreybc> awesoe
<humphreybc> with an m in there too
<humphreybc> right i better get some sleep
<humphreybc> lots of stuff to do tomorrow
<humphreybc> keep up the good work thorwil
<thorwil> humphreybc: you can get very far with english in europe, but you gain bonus points if try to speak at least a few words in the native language
<thorwil> humphreybc: sleep you very well
 * vish notices thorwil's attempt at "Yoda" ;p
<thorwil> vish: huh?
<vish> "sleep you very well" , i thought you were trying to speak like yoda , the star wars character.. oops  :s
<vish> thorwil: hehe , it would have been more accurate with "sleep you very well may"  :)
<thorwil> trying to speak like yoda there is no, you do or don't
<vish> wtf! benjamin asked to redo the fonts and he sent out the one he already has!
<vish> seriously a waste of time!
<vish> thorwil: i should have listened to you :s  and said no
<komsas> We have in translations problem, one men translating all content with google translate, what we can do to stop it?
<godbyk> komsas: Which language?
<komsas> lithuanian
<komsas> I'm talking about this guy https://launchpad.net/~nerijusgargzduose
<godbyk> I'll talk to humphreybc and dutchie about setting the permissions from Open to Structured.  That may cut down on the drive-by translation stuff a bit.
<godbyk> Is there a Lithuanian team?
<komsas> we now making it. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/lithuanian
<godbyk> Okay.
<godbyk> I would recommend emailing the ubuntu-manual mailing list and asking if we can set the project translation permissions from Open to Structured.
<godbyk> I think another translation team earlier raised the question, too.
<komsas> ok, I will find this raised question.
<mcqr> Hey, guys. I've read a bit of the manual and I'd like to give some suggestions. In the chapter dealing with installation of Ubuntu, there is written something like that: "you should download Ubuntu from their homepage and burn it to disk" and there is a sidenote something like this:"read the manual of your OS how to burn a disk". When I first tried to install linux, I ruined 8(!) CD because I didn't know how to burn an iso 
<komsas> godbyk: I have permissions to change it. Can I change it to Structured for now?
<godbyk> komsas: Since it affects all the other translators, we should probably wait to hear back from others first.
<komsas> oh, you are right .
<godbyk> mcqr: Thanks for your suggestion.  I think someone emailed the list earlier today with the same suggestion and the author of that chapter made a note of it.
<godbyk> mcqr: Here were the suggestions made on the list earlier: https://lists.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/msg00659.html
<godbyk> Feel free to write in to the list with more recommendations, as well!
<thorwil> strange. the fonts Free Helvetian/Paladin/Schoolbook have copyright tags like this: Copyright (URW)++,Copyright 1999 by (URW)++ Design
<thorwil> but they're all from some free fonts debian/ubuntu package
<godbyk> thorwil: What's strange about it?
<thorwil> godbyk: just a (c) with no license terms usually means all rights restricted
<godbyk> thorwil: Ah, I've noticed most fonts' copyright terms (the stuff embedded in the ttf/otf file) are often out-of-sync with the license they've been released under.
<thorwil> godbyk: i' trying to assemble a list of fonts suitable for body text and maybe title page
<thorwil> fontmatrix is being a great help, but some font-metadata isn't what it should be, obviously :)
<godbyk> thorwil: Cool! I'm trying to find appropriate fonts for all the languages we're supporting.. and people keep translating it to even more languages!
<godbyk> fontmatrix is pretty awesome.
<godbyk> will it let you filter by script (language)?
<thorwil> version 0.6 is indeed awesome, the one from karmic not
<godbyk> I'm running the svn version.
<thorwil> godbyk: i see no sign of filtering by script
<godbyk> Darn.  That'd really help me out.
<godbyk> I've been running otfinfo -s and grep to find fonts and it's, well, sub-optimal. :)
<thorwil> godbyk: any clue on the differences between the 4 gentium variants?
<godbyk> thorwil: Looks like the Book variant is a bit bolder than the others.
<godbyk> Otherwise, there's some difference in the Unicode coverage as well.
<godbyk> From the site: "The 'Basic' fonts only support a limited Latin character set (no Greek or Cyrillic). Gentium Book is a new companion family to Gentium that is altogether slightly heavier, and better suited for some publishing needs."
<thorwil> Charis SIL renders very good in fontmatrix
<thorwil> MgOpen fonts all seem to have some problems leading to missing characters or bad kerning
 * dutchie gets round to updating the translations
<godbyk> dutchie: Does it still wipe out the translations when we update them?
<dutchie> all the ones that have changed
<dutchie> which will be most of them considering how long it's been since I updated them
<dutchie> humphreybc: thanks for warning me about doing a talk :P
<humphreybc> dutchie: yep thought i'd give everyone plenty of warning :P
<dutchie> first I heard was in the announcement
<humphreybc> you don't have to if you don't want to, but I just thought i'd jot down the main people and see how we go
<dutchie> it's fine, it was just a bit of a shock seeing it in the announcement before anywhere else
<humphreybc> yeah I'm going to talk through it with you guys at the meeting tomorrow
<humphreybc> what do you think of the idea?
<dutchie> seems cool
<humphreybc> swell
<humphreybc> hopefully it'll teach people like Wendy some latex so she can commit herself without sending stuff to Ilya
<humphreybc> and if we teach everyone Ground Control that would be awesome
<dutchie> we can play with lernid too :)
<humphreybc> yep!
<humphreybc> It's good because Jono and Martin want testers for Lernid and Ground Control
<dutchie> something of a jono-endorsed dev tools fest
<humphreybc> and we're a big project, so basically we get kudos for testing their stuff, and it benefits our team as well
<dutchie> humphreybc: I updated the translations tonight
<humphreybc> yep i saw that, hey did you just get the email from komsas about structuring translations?
<dutchie> I bet we get a massive load of people complaining that everything changed
<dutchie> I did see it
<humphreybc> have another look, i just replied and he replied
<humphreybc> sounds like a good idea, but we'll have to tell the translators somehow
<humphreybc> and they're going to have to set up teams and all that
<dutchie> https://help.launchpad.net/Translations/YourProject/PermissionPolicies
<humphreybc> ah
<humphreybc> "Anyone can suggest a translation for those languages, though."
<humphreybc> "For languages that aren't covered by a translation group, anyone can
<humphreybc> directly submit a translation."
<humphreybc> so it won't be that bad
 * dutchie is exhauste
<dutchie> d
<humphreybc> what time is it?
<dutchie> 10 pm
<humphreybc> gotcha
<humphreybc> 11am here
<humphreybc> on saturday
<humphreybc> righto i think we'll switch to structured
<humphreybc> i'll email the team
<dutchie> I fixed the planet too
<komsas> Hi guys, I see that lithuanian translations is assigned to lithuanian ubuntu translation team, I'm in this team, so for us is everythink ok if you change permission. It will be good action.
<humphreybc> okay cool
<humphreybc> komsas: i'm just doing that now
<komsas> I don't know how, but I would like to clean all translations from that user who made mess.
<humphreybc> komsas: nice work on the lithuanian wiki page
<komsas> thanks ;)
<humphreybc> I can't read lithuanian but it looks good :)
<dutchie> komsas: if you just find their translations on translations.launchpad.net, you should be able to retranslate them
 * humphreybc changes to structured
 * humphreybc prays that the translators don't explode
<komsas> I see that I'm not first talking about permissions so everybody will be happy
<humphreybc> oh are more people wanting structured?
<humphreybc> i have to admit I have been very ignorant with translations
<humphreybc> I haven't taken much time to understand how they actually work, or to set up a proper structure
<humphreybc> but it's great that you've come forward to talk to the rest of the team komsas - we normally hardly hear from translators!
<komsas>  godbyk said today that someone was writing about it in mailing list.
<dutchie> humphreybc: are we going to be using #ubuntu-classroom for the 48 hours thing?
<humphreybc> maybe but I think we could have it all in Lernid?
<komsas> humphreybc: I think from alhpa more people will come..
<dutchie> humphreybc: lernid just acts as a pretty front-end to IRC
<dutchie> I'm updating the wiki now
<humphreybc> ah right, well yes #ubuntu-classroom will be good
<dutchie> people can still use old-fashioned clients if they like :)
<humphreybc> either there or in our chat room
<humphreybc> wow. my server has uploaded 627mb of stuff in the last 12 hours since omgubuntu blogged about the alpha. Which means about 300 people have downloaded our alpha manual
<dutchie> blimey
<humphreybc> yea
<humphreybc> good thing i'm on unlimited internet now!
<dutchie> actual unlimited unlimited?
<humphreybc> yep
<humphreybc> telecom big time
<humphreybc> it's traffic managed between 9-5, but it's still fairly quick
<humphreybc> and at night it's nice and fast AND unlimited bandwidth
<humphreybc> for some reason my server has some sort of memory leak: http://humphreybc.homeip.net/phpsysinfo
<dutchie> wow
<dutchie> checked [h]top?
<humphreybc> check out the uptime, but then look at the physical memory usage and the network usage
<dutchie> rubbish uptime :P
<dutchie>  22:22:11 up 10 days, 51 min,  5 users,  load average: 0.56, 0.40, 0.35
<humphreybc> haha yeah
<komsas> I'm thinking how to get rid of bad translations. Main thing is that now showing that we are translated ~50% of content, but in real there are only 2-3%.
<humphreybc> it was up a month before i restarted yesterday
<humphreybc> my friend came to stay and he slept in the server room (lounge) so I turned it off at night so it wouldn't keep him awake
<dutchie> humphreybc: it's sad when you have to do that
<humphreybc> komsas: I think you'll probably just have to go through and overwrite what he's done
<humphreybc> dutchie: nothing showing in top
<komsas> I cant to make it back to clean position.
<komsas> ;/
<dutchie> komsas: I somewhat doubt many will be left once the new template imports :)
<humphreybc> dutchie: i think phpsysinfo is reporting it wrong
<dutchie> komsas: but if you go to https://translations.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/main/+pots/ubuntu-manual/lt/+translate then you can set the dodgy ones back to empty (or a proper translation)
<humphreybc> memory usage only shows 95mb / 497
<humphreybc> perhaps phpsysinfo adds the memory usage up instead of having it in real time... which would be a bug
<humphreybc> links are href right?
<dutchie> <a href="target">text</a>
<humphreybc> nah for latex. i worked it out, \url
<humphreybc> godbyk: ping
<godbyk> humphreybc: pong
<humphreybc> have you used agave before to match colour schemes?
<humphreybc> i'm going to plug in some of our colours to see what it comes up with
<godbyk> I have, yeah.
<godbyk> humphreybc: here are the ubuntu colors, fwiw: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Official
<humphreybc> oh wow
<humphreybc> i thought that UbuntuRed looks way too bright
<humphreybc> UbuntuMaroon maybe? :P
<godbyk> yeah, I think the red is too bright.
<godbyk> looking at this color palette, I like the accent red base or the accent deep red: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Official?action=AttachFile&do=view&target=ubuntu-palette.png
<godbyk> you want the color to look dark when printed in b&w, too.
<humphreybc> accent deep red for URLs and accent red base for sections?
<humphreybc> then something like Accent yellow shadow for subsections
<humphreybc> and Human base for subsubsections?
<humphreybc> try those out and see how they look
<humphreybc> :D
<godbyk> I don't think we need different colors for sections and subsections.
<humphreybc> yeah you're probably right
<humphreybc> so chapter headings are in black, sections in accent deep red and URLs in red base?
<humphreybc> or swap the URL and sections colours. probably doesn't matter that much
<godbyk> we'll see.  I'm need to sit down and read what folks have written so I can start the new design soon.
<humphreybc> cool
<humphreybc> how is the font hunting going?
<godbyk> Well, I've been stuck on the Telugu script for a while, but I'm going to move on and look at the other translations.
<humphreybc> cool
<godbyk> I'd like to have the translated manuals be as well-designed (typographically speaking) as the English manual.
<godbyk> Unfortunately, I only speak English, so I'll be relying on the translators for some help there.
<godbyk> Speaking of fonts, I just got some new font specimens in the mail today.
<godbyk> Pretty.
<godbyk> Too bad I have no money. :-(
<humphreybc> how much are fonts?
<godbyk> It varies quite a bit, but it's not unusual to see a family go for a few hundred bucks.
<godbyk> (US$)
<humphreybc> eek
#ubuntu-manual 2010-02-13
<dutchie> hmm, merging in all these new translations is going to take ages
<dutchie> hmm
* dutchie changed the topic of #ubuntu-manual to: Ubuntu Manual Project discussion | Wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual | Launchpad:  https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual | IRC logs: http://irclogs.ubuntu.com | Ubuntu Guidelines: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcGuidelines | Code of Conduct: http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct/ | Next meeting: http://linkpot.net/sorrows/ in #ubuntu-meeting at 2000 UTC
 * dutchie has realised why he should update the translations regularly
<dutchie> bloody *enormous* merge conflicts to resolve
<dutchie> 36 .po files with conflicts to resolve
<dutchie> \o/ shortcut found and utilised
<ubuntujenkins> hello the meeting has to be moved it think because there is a meeting booked in #ubuntu-meeting and its not the ubuntu manual project
<ubuntujenkins> am i right?
<ubuntujenkins> http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar ubuntu meeting channel schedule
<dutchie> we could have it in here instead
<dutchie> we've got MootBot
 * dutchie makes an executive decision
<ubuntujenkins> I thought that shall i mail the list
* dutchie changed the topic of #ubuntu-manual to: Ubuntu Manual Project discussion | Wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual | Launchpad:  https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual | IRC logs: http://irclogs.ubuntu.com | Ubuntu Guidelines: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcGuidelines | Code of Conduct: http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct/ | Next meeting: http://linkpot.net/sorrows/ in here at 2000 UTC
<dutchie> I'll do it, it's fine
<ubuntujenkins> thanks I didn't want to do it my self with out mentioning it here first
<ubuntujenkins> shall i do the wiki dutchie?
<dutchie> too slow :)
<bvb> quick thought ... are we using Oxford commas?
<nisshh> godbyk: you would be the best person to answer this.
<dutchie> editors would be better
<dutchie> I forget who the head of editing is thoug
<dutchie> h
<bvb> jamin day, perhaps? i feel like i've gotten most editing emails from him
<dutchie> might be
<bvb> well, i don't know if i can make the meeting later, but i'll least leave xchat running and be back in a bit
<ubuntujenkins> I was going to ask the oxford comma question nice ask! I will ask in the meeting if you are not there bvb
<nisshh> hmmm, where is benjamin? we need to start soon
<dutchie> doesn't seem to be around
<nisshh> meh ok
<nisshh> we should wait 5 mins and then start you reckon?
<dutchie> yeah
<nisshh> kk good plan
<tacantara> Just checked Google Buzz...Benjamin isn't online
<nisshh> hehe he must be busy
<dutchie> or asleep :)
<tacantara> I hope his new ISP hasn't goofed up on him ;)
<nisshh> yea true but he shouldnt be asleep since its 4am for me and hes 3 hours ahead
<dutchie> do we have an emergency backup chair, or shall I step in?
<voxwoman> hi everyobe
<voxwoman> everone
<dutchie> hi voxwoman
<dutchie> nisshh: wouldn't that make it 7am on a sunday for him? excusable if so...
<dutchie> right, any objections to starting without humphreybc?
<ubuntujenkins> I think we should wait 5 more mins
<thorwil> and i was worried about coming late
<nisshh> we should probably get started...
<dutchie> 3
<dutchie> 2
<dutchie> 1
<dutchie> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 14:08. The chair is dutchie.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<dutchie> Everyone here, say PRESENT then
<voxwoman> PRESENT
<vendaval> PRESENT
<ubuntujenkins> PRESENT
<KelvinGardiner> present
<thorwil> PRESENT
<tacantara> PRESENT
<dutchie> OK first topic
<mattgriffin> PRESENT
<dutchie> [TOPIC] 48 hours of Ubuntu Manual learning
<MootBot> New Topic:  48 hours of Ubuntu Manual learning
<bvb> PRESENT
<dutchie> So, as I understand it, this is an UbuntuOpenWeek style affair to help folks learn about how the manual works
<dutchie> Tonight, we need to make a start on organising timings and making sure everyone knows what's going on
<voxwoman> this is something I need so I can be more productive with the group
<ubuntujenkins> we might want some more events otherwise each will be 2 hours long
<nisshh> does anyone have any suggestions for more events?
<dutchie> I think the intention was to do each one twice to give more people a chance to sit in
<nisshh> im happy to do one but im not sure what is left
<dutchie> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/48hours
<dutchie> see that page for more info
<nisshh> yes its over 2 days after all
<ubuntujenkins> I think the times might need sorting by the people doing it depending on their time zones.
<dutchie> this is definitely true
<nisshh> yes but its better if they are one after the other
<nisshh> not scattered
<dutchie> nisshh: definitely
<nisshh> so they probably just need reordering
<dutchie> OK, humphreybc, godbyk, JaminDay, thorwil, myself, IlyaHaykinson are scheduled to give talks
<thorwil> dutchie: it's a mistake if i'm still on that list
<dutchie> that's what it says on the wiki
<nisshh> thorwil: you oped out?
<thorwil> yes
 * thorwil fixes wiki
<dutchie> do we have any other artists to cover that?
<nisshh> hmmm well im not on the artwork team
<dutchie> the OpenWeek and DeveloperWeek normally run from 1600UTC
<nisshh> and that is a better session time for me too
<ubuntujenkins> we need nine hours that work for people who are doing it. What time zones are those people in?
<thorwil> i see no need or use in covering artwork there
<dutchie> thorwil: what makes you say that?
<nisshh> we need to cover screenshot taking
<nisshh> since most writers will help out with that too
<thorwil> dutchie: it's very unlikely anyone joins the effort who couldn't be instructed if it happens
<dutchie> OK, we could replace that with screenshot taking
<dutchie> all agreed?
<nisshh> have we got the guidelines for screenshot size and whatnot decided yet though?
<dutchie> the Docs team have official guidelines
<dutchie> might as well use them
<dutchie> jaminday: hi
<thorwil> dutchie: those that say 8bit?
<dutchie> we're discussing the 48 hours thing
<jaminday> hi there
<nisshh> yes good point
<dutchie> thorwil: are they? hadn't looked myself
<nisshh> but we should make sure they fit with out layout
<nisshh> our layout
<jaminday> ah cool. Sorry i slept in!
<dutchie> that's godbyk's area
<dutchie> it shouldn't be too hard
<nisshh> also if thorwil wishes not to cover the screenshots section i will stick my hand up
<thorwil> nisshh: cool, as i indeed don't intend to
<dutchie> OK, nisshh can do a talk on screenshots
<dutchie> [ACTION] nisshh to do a talk on taking screenshots to replace the art team one
<MootBot> ACTION received:  nisshh to do a talk on taking screenshots to replace the art team one
<thorwil> provided we know what we want until then?
<dutchie> we'll have another meeting by then
<godbyk> I'm here now.
<godbyk> Totally forgot abut the mtg, sorry.
<dutchie> so, are there times that people could/couldn't do?
<dutchie> we're looking at Monday/Tuesday afternoon/evening, UTC
<dutchie> speak up :)
<dutchie> OK, I'll go first then
<KelvinGardiner> I can do 1600 UTC  2300 UTC Monday
<dutchie> it'd probably be best to start off with humphreybc's intro both days
<godbyk> evening UTC is better for me.
<dutchie> shall we kick off at 1600 then?
<dutchie> I'll set the intro talks for then
<dutchie> if we're all agreed
<ubuntujenkins> sounds good to me
<nisshh> yes sorry i got distracted
<nisshh> 1600 utc is good
<dutchie> [ACTION] dutchie to set the start time as 1600UTC and schedule humphreybc's intro for then
<MootBot> ACTION received:  dutchie to set the start time as 1600UTC and schedule humphreybc's intro for then
<dutchie> ok, godbyk
<KelvinGardiner> Should the talks be at different times for both days for people in different time zones. e.f. 1600 UTC Monday and 0400UTC Tuesday.
<dutchie> KelvinGardiner: I was about to make that point
<ubuntujenkins> same
<godbyk> I agree.
<nisshh> also whoever just edited the wiki just removed my talk slot
<dutchie> this is a bit tricky as benjamin is doing half the talks and we don't know when he's free
<nisshh> ill add it back in now though
<dutchie> godbyk: would you be good to go at 1700 on the monday, and say 2000 on the tuesday?
<KelvinGardiner> If Benjamin does the first day, someone else can repeat what he covers if he not about on the second day.
<dutchie> hmm
<dutchie> http://etherpad.com/ov6YwNDcDi
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://etherpad.com/ov6YwNDcDi
<godbyk> dutchie: That should be fine, yeah.
<dutchie> might be easier to knock up a schedule on there
<nisshh> id be happy with anything up to 1900 on either day
<ubuntujenkins> shouldn't the times be more apart to allow for other time zones?
<dutchie> the open week is normally done every hour
<jaminday> yeah the first i could do would be 0530 UTC on tuesday
<jaminday> or 0600 tuesday
<dutchie> I was basing it on that pretty closely
<nisshh> 99% of people get to open week too
<dutchie> stick ideas and preferred times on the etherpad
<nisshh> their times work well
<ubuntujenkins> if monday starts at 1600 then tuesday should be at 0400. every hour makes sense
<dutchie> exactly, that's why I was stealing their idea
<tacantara> Any possibility of converting slide shows to a You-Tube movie format, or making the slides with lecture notes available for download from the Wiki?  You know, just in case someone can't attend a lecture but wants the info.
<dutchie> we'll put logs up for those that can't make it
<dutchie> OK, we're going to move on from scheduling the 48 hours
<dutchie> it's not done, but keep looking at it when you can.
<nisshh> ok
<dutchie> feel free to edit the etherpad - it's easier to do than with a wiki
<dutchie> OK, next topic
<dutchie> [TOPIC] BETA Release milestones
<nisshh> next item?
<MootBot> New Topic:  BETA Release milestones
<dutchie> OK, beta is scheduled for the 18th of March
<dutchie> which is the same day as Lucid beta iirc
<dutchie> "In this release, the content of the manual should represent what it will look like in the final release - all references, links and images should be in place, and final formatting, color scheme and styles should start to take shape. Translations should be well on their way to completion."
<dutchie> is what the wiki says
<dutchie> I don't think much needs to be said about that, just get your heads down and work away on it
<thorwil> all images in place might become fun
<dutchie> we can discuss screenshots next time round
<dutchie> anybody else got anything to say on the beta?
<tacantara> The alpha release seems to have a lot of information.  Tweaking shouldn't be much of a problem
<nisshh> nope
<godbyk> We should also make sure the translations are set up to work smoothly.
<dutchie> godbyk: yeah, I think I've got a better workflow set up for those now
<KelvinGardiner> Is there a list of needed screenshots?
<godbyk> And from the formatting side, too, so we have appropriate fonts and designs for each translated language.
<godbyk> KelvinGardiner: Some are listed in comments in the .tex files
<dutchie> if editors can mark where screenshots are needed with some suitable comment, that'd be useful
<jaminday> editing has been slower than hoped so far while waiting on content but hopefully now that there is more it will pick up
<godbyk> I will create a \screenshotTODO{Description of the required screenshot.} command today that we can start using as a placeholder.
<nisshh> most are
<bvb> a global list, with one person assigned to screenshots, might be useful
<godbyk> That'll make it easier to track what screenshots we need.
<jaminday> yes agreed
<jaminday> godbyk - can that placeholder be explained in our wiki somewhere?
<KelvinGardiner> godbyk: good plan.
<godbyk> We can have the \screenshotTODO command barf out a plain text file containing the list of required screenshots, too.
<bvb> cool
<dutchie> OK, so shall we say editors comment up the screenshots for next week
<godbyk> jaminday: Sure. After I've written it. :)
<dutchie> godbyk: is that needed?
<dutchie> godbyk: surely just a comment could be grepped and perled into a text file
<jaminday> no worries
<godbyk> The comments are less structured, whereas the command can insert a placeholder graphic and make a true list of screenshots we still need to get.
<nisshh> cool
<dutchie> godbyk: if you think that'd help
<jaminday> also comments marking screenshots tend to get lost in the sea of other comments
<jaminday> whereas a command would be more obvious
<godbyk> It'll also help with getting a page count and an idea of the final PDF file size.
<bvb> yeah, i think it'd help
<dutchie> [ACTION] godbyk to do a \screenshotTODO command to insert placeholder text and produce a list of required screenshots
<MootBot> ACTION received:  godbyk to do a \screenshotTODO command to insert placeholder text and produce a list of required screenshots
<bvb> would it make sense to have a specific screenshot team (operating with the master list)...?
<dutchie> I think just everyone who can does screenshots :)
<bvb> ok
<dutchie> anything else on the beta?
<nisshh> good plan
<bvb> i take it specifics (res, etc.) are for next meeting?
<bvb> or just "later' :)
<dutchie> next meeting
<bvb> ok
<dutchie> moving on then
<dutchie> [TOPIC] Ubuntu Manual Global Jam
<MootBot> New Topic:  Ubuntu Manual Global Jam
<dutchie> Who here is planning to go to a Jam?
<dutchie> Who here knows what a Jam is?
<dutchie> ;)
<nisshh> well i dont know much about it to be honest
<jaminday> nope never heard of it
<nisshh> lol
<nisshh> its kind of like a sprint isnt it?
<dutchie> basically, yes
<dutchie> one moment, I'll pull up a link
<nisshh> cool ok and how do we collaborate?
<nisshh> ok
<dutchie> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuGlobalJam
<dutchie> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuGlobalJam/Events
<dutchie> check on there for one near you
<dutchie> but not many up yet
<dutchie> basically, we need to publicise the manual as something to work on during the jam
<nisshh> hehe none where i live
<dutchie> probably worth checking later on
<dutchie> if you can, go along to one and spread the word
<nisshh> ok, is a Jam over irc?
<dutchie> no, meeting up in a room somewhere
<godbyk> What are the discrete tasks that we want people to help with on the manual?
<dutchie> doing screenshots by then, probably
<dutchie> translations too
<KelvinGardiner> nisshh: I think the docs team do a jam via irc.
<nisshh> ah right
<nisshh> we will have to then too since we all live far apart
<dutchie> nisshh: the idea is you go to one near you, and meet up with like-minded folks
<nisshh> yea i get it now
<dutchie> we could probably say more nearer the time
<dutchie> 26th - 28th March 2010 if I didn't mention it
<jaminday> Can we keep moving? I have to head off in about 10mins -ish
<dutchie> yep, sure
<jaminday> sorry didn't mean to sound pushy ;)
<dutchie> [TOPIC] Artwork icons
<MootBot> New Topic:  Artwork icons
<dutchie> OK, not quite sure what this topic is about
<dutchie> Anybody else know?
<jaminday> i think something to do with icons for each chapter or something?
<tacantara> Chapter icons, I believe
<bvb> jaminday: before you run off (sorry to be off-topic), we were wondering about Oxford commas ...
<ubuntujenkins> I guess its about the icons like the warning one
<dutchie> ahh, good thinking bvb
<nisshh> yea hard to say wiht benjamin
<nisshh> without
<jaminday> bvb: yes i hadn't forgotten about that - sorry i never replied to your email i was hoping to get some consensus from the US folk around here as to what is standard
<godbyk> I vote for serial commas.  Reduces ambiguity.
<jaminday> godbyk: agreed that would be my preference
<bvb> godbyk: also agreed
<dutchie> OK, that was quick and easy :)
<bvb> excellent :)
<jaminday> dutchie: sorry didn't mean to hijack the meeting!
<dutchie> [ACTION] serial commas to be used throughout
<MootBot> ACTION received:  serial commas to be used throughout
<dutchie> jaminday: don't worry, it's fine
<dutchie> ok, back to chapter icons
<thorwil> Icons could refer to those we might put on the title page
<thorwil> and/or those to be used as mark inside
<dutchie> I have no idea what this is about to be honest
<dutchie> defer it until we've got someone who knows what it is?
<godbyk> we do still need to find an icon to introduce the warning paragraphs and whatever the other one was.. advanced or expert maybe?
<nisshh> we need a Q&A "Ask benjamin what the hell he means!"
<jaminday> perhaps we should have someone from the design team do some mock-ups to give us some idea
<dutchie> there must be that sort of thing hanging around
<nisshh> yes good idea
<jaminday> ie liaise with benjamin so we have something concrete to discuss next meeting
<thorwil> jaminday: if the design team can do mockups, you don't need ideas ...
<dutchie> we could probably grab one out of GNOME if it came to it
<ubuntujenkins> there is a warning icon in the graphics folder
<jaminday> thorwil: sorry i meant have an idea of what we are talking about here
<dutchie> OK, this isn't working out :)
<dutchie> Deal with it next time?
<thorwil> we simply need a list with descriptions of what we need icons for inside the book
<nisshh> YES
<thorwil> that's all
<godbyk> dutchie: sounds good.
<dutchie> thorwil: OK then
<dutchie> thorwil: put a list in a text file in the source tree maybe?
<thorwil> dutchie: said list is for those of us who are supposed to create the icons (or find them)
<thorwil> dutchie: that's vish, perhaps wolter, myself
<thorwil> dutchie: we don't need that in the source tree
<nisshh> there are some good ones included with glade-3
<dutchie> thorwil: in the wiki then?
<KelvinGardiner> I think we should use the default Ubuntu icons, as these will be familiar to users.
<dutchie> I thought a wiki page was overkill
<thorwil> dutchie: mailing list
<nisshh> yea ok
<dutchie> thorwil: something more permanent, surely
<thorwil> dutchie: mailing list -> wiki
<dutchie> OK, can you sort that?
<thorwil> no
<dutchie> why not?
<thorwil> if godbyk being in charge of the markup is unsure about what cases we have, how am i supposed to find out?
<dutchie> why not start a ML thread?
<godbyk> The two special commands I made (upon request) were \advanced and \warning.
<godbyk> Right now we're just using !! and ! as placeholders.
<godbyk> Beyond that, I haven't any idea what other icons we need.
<dutchie> Do we need any others?
<jaminday> I think Benjamin wanted an icon for each chapter heading - one that reflects the contents of that chapter
<KelvinGardiner> maybe info  / tip
<jaminday> ie for the one on terminal, a terminal icon next to the heading or something...
<dutchie> jaminday: i se
<dutchie> e
<tacantara> Yes, that was his intention
<dutchie> in that case, should the design team do mockups and we can review them at the next meeting?
<tacantara> sounds like a good plan, dutchie
<dutchie> all agreed on that?
<dutchie> [ACTION] Design team to mock up icons for chapters, to be reviewed next meeting
<MootBot> ACTION received:  Design team to mock up icons for chapters, to be reviewed next meeting
<jaminday> yeah i think that would be best
<jaminday> sorry all i'd better run or I'll be late - i think it's mostly design stuff from here on anyways
<dutchie> Right, that's the icons done
<dutchie> everyone good to move on?
<ubuntujenkins> sure
<nisshh> yep, but i need to get some sleep
<dutchie> nisshh: no worries, last topic :)
<nisshh> ill stay anoth 15 and then iv got to sleep
<dutchie> [TOPIC] T-t-title page!
<MootBot> New Topic:  T-t-title page!
 * dutchie raises eyebrows
<dutchie> I presume we're discussing the title page tehn
<dutchie> then*
<dutchie> I'm not a designer, but the one at the moment looks good
<thorwil> i don't think there's any use to discuss it without humphreybc and wolter
<dutchie> thorwil: agreed
<godbyk> I agree with thorwil.
<thorwil> and vish, of course
<tacantara> I also agree with the design on the Alpha
<dutchie> right
<dutchie> [TOPIC] Any other business?
<MootBot> New Topic:  Any other business?
<dutchie> go for it, if you have anything
<nisshh> yes agreed
<vendaval> hello, I'm new to this
<vendaval> but I was hoping to help out. I saw that the Glossary has not been started, can I help with that?
<nisshh> hey there
<godbyk> vendaval: Welcome.
<bvb> vendaval: me too :)
<godbyk> I haven't got the code set up for the glossary yet (I'd forgotten about it, actually).
<bvb> i noticed an \application tag ... does that just glossarise stuff?
<godbyk> But if you want to start highlight words that have been defined or should be defined in a glossary, that will help a lot.
<bvb> or is that for the index?
<nisshh> its something that should be finished by beta release
<thorwil> good night!
<godbyk> bvb: It adds an entry to the index, but doesn't add it to a glossary yet.
<nisshh> night mate
<bvb> godbyk: ok ... is there similar for glossary?
<vendaval> ok, I'm not really sure how to work in latex and bazaar, would waiting until the 48 hour meeting explain that?
<godbyk> bvb: There isn't yet.  I'll get a couple commands written for that soon and post to the mailing list about them.
<godbyk> Are you guys both subscribed to the mailing list?
<vendaval> I am.
<bvb> yup
<godbyk> vendaval: The 48-hour meeting will cover that, yes.
<bvb> godbyk: sounds good
<godbyk> LaTeX is basically just plain text files with a few \commands scattered throughout.
<vendaval> ok, I'll wait until then before trying anything out then.
<dutchie> so, godbyk has now been reminded to do the glossary
<godbyk> I'll get the glossary stuff set up soon and email the list then.
<dutchie> [ACTION] godbyk to set up glossary
<nisshh> vendaval: if you like i can go through it with you and help you get started later
<MootBot> ACTION received:  godbyk to set up glossary
<dutchie> anything else?
<ubuntujenkins> I am unable to write all of  the section on totem in lucid due to a bug# 521482 . Which after a chat on irc was filled . I can write it but I will have to base it on karmic and check for differences when totem works. I can't see that being a problem just though i would let people know.
<vendaval> nisshh: that would be great.
<bvb> another thought ... is it worth setting up a ppa for a daily version, just to spread the word?
<dutchie> I'm of the opinion that it doesn't need packaging
<nisshh> ok awesome, how about straight after the next meeting?
<nisshh> the 8 hour one i mean
<nisshh> 48 hour one
<godbyk> I don't think it needs packaging (yet).
<godbyk> But we could look into a daily build sort of thing.
<godbyk> I'll see what I can set up.
<ubuntujenkins> I am happy to change the version on the main page each day If i can work out how
<bvb> that's what i was wondering - it didn't look like the website actually had daily builds
<godbyk> dutchie: Can we get the translations to be reincorporated more frequently?  Or will that screw up rosetta?
<KelvinGardiner> Can the build script put the bzr rev number in?
<godbyk> KelvinGardiner: In the filename or the document itself?
<ubuntujenkins> file name sounds good
<KelvinGardiner> godbyk: for the cover, during the dev cycle.
<nisshh> ok, cya later guys
<dutchie> godbyk: I'm just looking
<godbyk> KelvinGardiner: Hmm. that may be a bit more difficult.  Could probably be done, but might be a pain. Would involve editing the svg file, then exporting it each time (which takes a while).
<godbyk> KelvinGardiner: I could probably set it up to be included on the copyright page for now, though.
<dutchie> godbyk: launchpad exports the translations to a bzr branch every day
<dutchie> godbyk: I tried merging it in earlier, and there were about 15 million merge conflicts
<KelvinGardiner> godbyk: ok
<dutchie> I eventually just wiped the old content with the new stuff
<tacantara> Have to log out now.  Time to get ready for my annual Valentine's Dinner with the missus :)  Take care, all
<godbyk> dutchie: Would we want to merge or overwrite with just the po files from the translated branch?
<godbyk> See ya, tacantara.
<dutchie> godbyk: in theory, both should accomplish the same thing
<dutchie> but I ended up overwriting them
<godbyk> I think it'd be useful for the translators to be able to see the effect of their work (the translated PDF).
<dutchie> godbyk: sure
<godbyk> That way they can yell at me if I need to fix formatting issues for their language.
<dutchie> I should be able to get into updating the translations every day
<godbyk> I think that all these translations are going to be more time-consuming than what people realize.
<dutchie> they certainly are
<godbyk> dutchie: I know I keep asking, but just to be sure, we're not irking the translators if we do that, right?  I mean, it doesn't just discard their previous work?
<dutchie> not if it's unchanged
<godbyk> Okay.
<dutchie> obviously, if it is changed, their previous work isn't much use
<godbyk> Well, if it's a spelling error or missing comma that's been fixed in a huge paragraph, their previous work is still of use.
<godbyk> At this point, we're not rewriting a lot, are we? Just editing now?
<godbyk> (I haven't kept up with what people are writing, so I could be completely off base there.)
<dutchie> fixing that sort of thing'll be hard to automate
<bvb> well, i'm off too...
<KelvinGardiner> godbyk: some sections are still unwritten.
<godbyk> See ya, bvb.
<dutchie> Are we done for the meeting then?
<dutchie> godbyk and myself can discuss the automation some other time
<godbyk> I guess.  I think everyone left us. :)
<dutchie> shout if you want something else...
<vendaval> goodbye
<ubuntujenkins> are we going to update the version on luanchpad each day then?
<dutchie> ubuntujenkins: if we ca
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: I'll set up a script to update it daily or something, yeah.
<dutchie> n
<dutchie> so, next meeting
<dutchie> #ubuntu-meeting is in use from 2100 next week
<ubuntujenkins> cool a script sounds good I can upload them if nessicary
<dutchie> I doubt we'll finish in an hour, going on past performances
<godbyk> Can we have the meeting here again?
<dutchie> sure
<dutchie> everyone agreed then?
<KelvinGardiner> Sounds good.
<dutchie> 2000UTC here 20/02/10
<godbyk> dutchie: Sounds good.
<dutchie> brilliant
<godbyk> You should add it to the wiki. :)
<dutchie> i'll write it up when we've finished
<KelvinGardiner> I'm going to buy some milk, see you next time.
<dutchie> right, ending then
<dutchie> last chance...
<godbyk> see ya, KelvinGardiner
<dutchie> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 15:38.
<dutchie> and we're done
<godbyk> cool
<godbyk> that was mostly painless.  nice job! :)
<dutchie> now the fun bit
<ubuntujenkins> MSG mattgriffin
<humphreybc> hi everyone, sorry i missed the meeting this morning - slept in. up late studying last night
<humphreybc> how did it go?
<dutchie> humphreybc: not too bad
<dutchie> just writing it up no
<dutchie> w
<humphreybc> cool i'm just reading the log :)
<humphreybc> nice work on charing it
<humphreybc> chairing*
<dutchie> humphreybc: you can investigate  http://etherpad.com/ov6YwNDcDi too
<dutchie> meh, that'll do
<humphreybc> why do i get the gut feeling that 1600 and 0400 are the worst possible times ever for me :P
<dutchie> feel free to change it round
<humphreybc> 5am and 5pm
<humphreybc> that's not that bad
<humphreybc> i'll just have to get up super early :P
<dutchie> we just thought it'd be best to put your intro first
<dutchie> damn
<humphreybc> yep that's the intention, good decision
<humphreybc> nah it's all good, 5am is workable. i'll get lots done that day
<humphreybc> haha
<dutchie> forgot to mention my/stuart langridge's IRC talk script
<dutchie> only any use for irssi/xchat users
<humphreybc> oh yes?
<godbyk> What's it do?
<dutchie> stuart langridge wrote the original xchat one, then I ported it to irssi
<dutchie> hang on
<dutchie> http://www.kryogenix.org/days/2009/08/31/delivering-talks-by-irc-an-xchat-plugin
<humphreybc> so everyone liked the idea of the 48 hours thing?
<dutchie> seemed to
<humphreybc> i'm liking the screenshotToDO command thing
<humphreybc> neat
<humphreybc> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Jam
<humphreybc> technically a jam is over IRC
<humphreybc> i mean
<humphreybc> technically it's in person
<humphreybc> but my plan was for us to work on it over IRC/in person/however we can
<dutchie> as I said in the meeting, we need to get people to work on it at the jam
<dutchie> going along ourselves would be handy also
<humphreybc> yup
<humphreybc> i'm trying to organize one in dunedin
<humphreybc> but we have a fairly good spread of people around the world, if we can get a few people to some jams to represent the manual team then that would get more word out about our project
<humphreybc> hahaha the "artwork icons" topic was basically to discuss icons for everything... the title page, the warning ones, and chapter heading icons. who's going to make them, what they'll look like, where they'll go and how many we need
<ubuntujenkins> I have just done a clean install in lucid and can't compile the manual the install script runs fine but running make gives http://paste.ubuntu.com/375761/ theres another package that needs installing and I can't rember it any know?
<humphreybc> oh neat there were a couple of new people in the meeting
<humphreybc> godbyk: ping - above ^^
<humphreybc> dutchie: "I tried merging it in earlier, and there were about 15 million merge conflicts"
<humphreybc> "I eventually just wiped the old content with the new stuff"
<humphreybc> is that going to mean the end of the world from the translation peopel?
<godbyk> ubuntujenkins: Try apt-get install texlive-fonts-recommended
<humphreybc> nice meeting fellas
<ubuntujenkins> found it is textlive-fonts-reccomended
<humphreybc> dutchie: howcome jamin's editing has a stroke through it on the etherpad?
<dutchie> humphreybc: because he couldn't do that time
<dutchie> humphreybc: no, it's not
<dutchie> humphreybc: I wiped it with their translations
<humphreybc> righto
 * humphreybc updates the 48 hours wiki with times from etherpad: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/48hours
<dutchie> there are quite a lot of translations being updated :)
<ubuntujenkins> thanks godbyk i found it.
<godbyk> No problem.
<godbyk> I'll be back in a bit.  Gonna shower and find something to eat.
<humphreybc> dutchie: take a look at this: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lernid/LernidEvent
<dutchie> seen it :)
<humphreybc> cool
<humphreybc> do you want to write it or should i?
<dutchie> not sure where the ones that make it built in should go
<dutchie> but I'll do it, if you like
<humphreybc> awesome, thanks. i've got exams that i should probably study for and then i have to make slides for all my talks... while also on holiday for 3 days O.o
<dutchie> well, you don't have to do slides
<humphreybc> (i'm going to a holiday house in the country with 10 friends and the plan is to not take my laptop!)
<humphreybc> yeah i will for my lessons though
<humphreybc> i'll create some youtube videos too
#ubuntu-manual 2010-02-14
<godbyk> humphreybc: ping
<humphreybc> godbyk: pong
<godbyk> humphreybc: I edited your installation chapter a little to test out the new \screenshotTODO command.  You can check it out.
<humphreybc> cool have you pushed it/
<godbyk> It'll add "MISSING SCREENSHOT / Screenshot description" to the PDF so it's obvious that something is missing.
<godbyk> It also generates a list of the missing screenshots and outputs them to screenshots.log file.
<godbyk> Yep, it's pushed.
<humphreybc> cool
<humphreybc> godbyk: that looks great!
<godbyk> humphreybc: thanks.
<godbyk> I'll make commands to insert the screenshots after we've got some to play with.
<humphreybc> if you could email the ML with instructions on how to use the command so authors can put it in, then that'll be great :)
<godbyk> Sure
<vish> humphreybc: hey.. did you send out reminders that the title page was updated?
<godbyk> vish: It automatically incorporates it into the PDF.
<vish> godbyk: yeah... i was mentioning the blogs/sites that humphreybc had sent out the old one [he had asked me to update the text and forgotten that i had updated it]
<godbyk> vish: Ah, I see.
<vish> godbyk: timezones suck fwiw :/   i received humphreybc 's mail at 4am and still i made sure it was done by 4pm somehow humphreybc had missed the branch update
<godbyk> Yeah, time zones are a pain.
<humphreybc> vish: yep should be updated soon
<godbyk> humphreybc: ping
<humphreybc> ping
<humphreybc> wait
<humphreybc> pong :)
<humphreybc> godbyk: what's up?
<godbyk> lol
<godbyk> I was just going to ask if it made more sense to do the ground control tutorial before the latex tutorial.
<godbyk> that way people could kind of follow along each step as we explained it and walk them through getting started.
<humphreybc> yeah I want to do that but then i'd have two sessions in a row
<humphreybc> actually
<humphreybc> that should be okay
<humphreybc> i didn't want to have two sessions in a row in case one of mine goes over an hour and screws the whole schedule up
<humphreybc> but it's only the introduction
<humphreybc> i'll change stuff around now
<godbyk> okay.
<humphreybc> done
<godbyk> cool.
<humphreybc> I'm thinking we should change the group to restricted?
<humphreybc> instead of open?
<humphreybc> because there are a lot of people still joining who aren't really doing much
<godbyk> Does it hurt anything?  I mean, are they doing any damage, or does it hurt to have people sign up and not do anything?
<humphreybc> true, good point
<humphreybc> it does make our team look disproportionately large though :P
<godbyk> Heh.. that's true.
<godbyk> 253 members.. wow!
<humphreybc> yea
<humphreybc> lol
<humphreybc> i don't think we have 253 people actually working on it
<humphreybc> we have 120 fans in our facebook group too which is awesome
<humphreybc> what's up with this branch merge? https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-manual/ubuntu-manual/main/+merge/19149
<humphreybc> and what ever happened to manualbot
<humphreybc> :P
<godbyk> I'm not sure what that means.  Hmm...
<godbyk> I think they're trying to take the updated main branch stuff and merge it into their own translated branch.
<godbyk> but I'm not sure
<humphreybc> lol
<humphreybc> me neither O.o
<humphreybc> I added in some more screenshot ToDos
<humphreybc> do you want me to make an 800 x 600 screenshot placeholder image for you to fiddle with?
<godbyk> Can you just take a few screenshots that we can use as examples?
<humphreybc> i could but i don't have lucid in a Vbox
<godbyk> Maybe grab 'em at different resolutions, too.  So we can see how big they all are.
<humphreybc> Vbox doesn't like my custom kernel
<humphreybc> i was just going to whip some up in photoshop
<humphreybc> just template things
<humphreybc> but actual shots would make sense
<godbyk> Why not just take some of your own desktop at the different resolutions?
<humphreybc> heh righto
<humphreybc> my max res is 1280x800
<humphreybc> squares?
<godbyk> We should get some realistic test cases for testing?
<godbyk> squares?
<humphreybc> well a 16:10 screenshot would be too wide, no?
<godbyk> Oh.. well, 800x600 is a 4:3 ratio.
<godbyk> Not sure if it matters too much at this stage.
<humphreybc> okay i've taken three, one of the full desktop, one of just one window, and one small one of just a dialog box
<humphreybc> http://humphreybc.homeip.net/files/sampleshots.zip
<humphreybc> try those out for size in chapter 1
<godbyk> My desktop is 3200x1600 stretched across two monitors, so it's a bit more difficult to take normal-looking screenshots. :)
<humphreybc> we need someone with a 4:3 monitor
<godbyk> I've got 'em downloaded
<humphreybc> sweet
<humphreybc> so i suppose all you'd need is a command that imports them, puts them in the center, gives a bit of padding and a 2px border
<humphreybc> probably just under black for the border
<godbyk> Will they need captions or be cross-referenced (e.g., "See Figure 1.")?
<humphreybc> captions i think
<humphreybc> so yeah that too
<humphreybc> maybe something like
<humphreybc> "Figure 1: The default Ubuntu GNOME desktop"
<humphreybc> and then we can cross reference too
<humphreybc> so "As you can see in figure 1 below, Ubuntu uses GNOME for..."
<godbyk> Okay, so with LaTeX there's something that can be initially a little confusing about figures.
<godbyk> Do we want the figures to be exactly where you put them in the text or allow them to float (that is to move around on the page to wherever they look best)?
<godbyk> (Where 'look best' is defined by LaTeX.)
<humphreybc> hmm
<godbyk> There are pros and cons to both options.
<humphreybc> i think we'd want control over placement
<humphreybc> what do you think?
<humphreybc> can you set some rules for what latex thinks is best?
<godbyk> If you say you want to control the placement, then you'll end up with (potentially) lots of white space around to fill out the page.
<godbyk> You can make suggestions to LaTeX.
<humphreybc> well, whatever you think will look best
<godbyk> So you can say, "LaTeX, I'd prefer that you place the image right here, but if you don't feel up to it, try the bottom of the page and then the top of the page."
<humphreybc> you know more about it than I
<humphreybc> well that sounds good
<humphreybc> what would be the reasons for it not feeling up to it? bad day at work? nagging wife?
<godbyk> It seems that way sometimes.
<humphreybc> so it's inexplicable?
<godbyk> It likes to have a minimum amount of text on each page, for instance.
<godbyk> So if putting your image there means there's not enough text on the page, the image may get bumped.
<godbyk> We can tweak those parameters, but there's still a little quirkiness sometimes.
<humphreybc> ah okay
<godbyk> Not really inexplicable, just *difficult* to explain. :-)
<humphreybc> and i suppose stuff like having sentences not jump over the page etc will have to be done by hand when everything's set?
<godbyk> http://kevin.godby.org/private/ubuntu-manual/main.pdf
<godbyk> I had it scale the images to fill the text-width.
<godbyk> But we won't really want to do that for all the images (like small dialog boxes).
<godbyk> What do you mean 'sentences not jump over the page'?
<humphreybc> you know like page breaks in bad places
<humphreybc> like the end of the prologue has one bullet point on the last page, and then about 5/6 of it is white space
<humphreybc> wow, 1mb with 3 images?
 * godbyk looks at the prologue
<godbyk> You mean on page xi and xii?
<godbyk> Where there are five lines that are on page xii?
<humphreybc> apparently the PDF document you gave me is damaged
<godbyk> It is?
<godbyk> Hmm.
<godbyk> I'll regenerate it and upload it again.
<godbyk> humphreybc: Try it again.
<godbyk> Hey, thorwil
<thorwil> hi godbyk
<godbyk> humphreybc and I are just playing around with some screenshot stuff.
<godbyk> humphreybc: Did that new pdf work okay?
<humphreybc> hold up
<godbyk> k
<humphreybc> is it your home server?
<godbyk> http://kevin.godby.org/private/ubuntu-manual/main.pdf
<godbyk> It's my web space, yeah.
<humphreybc> those screenshots aren't too bad. the resized ones look bad tho
<humphreybc> latex/evince resizing of screenshots is horrid
<humphreybc> or images in general
<humphreybc> i've noticed it in other publications
<godbyk> Yeah, it's generally a bad idea.
<humphreybc> and yes, prologue xi and xii
<humphreybc> so the one of the software center turned out the best
<humphreybc> what res is that?
<godbyk> 860 x 533
<humphreybc> yeah so closest to 800 x 600
<humphreybc> makes sense
<humphreybc> the other ones look okay if you zoom to the right size
<godbyk> Could also try doing weird things like using a high screen resolution, but setting the dpi/pitch to 300 instead of 96 or whatever the default is for the monitor.
<godbyk> not sure how the monitor would like that, though.
<godbyk> the lower the resolution, the larger the text will appear.
<humphreybc> yea
<humphreybc> hm
<humphreybc> you know that small one of the dialog box
<humphreybc> did latex stretch that to fit?
<humphreybc> because it looks very big
<humphreybc> we're going to have a lot of images of single windows or boxes about that size
<godbyk> yeah, it's stretched.
<humphreybc> darn
<humphreybc> can you disable that?
<godbyk> I basically told LaTeX to make all the graphics fit perfectly within the line width.
<humphreybc> ie a rule to "use native resolutions unless it's bigger than the width of the document, then resize"
<godbyk> So it stretched or shrank them to make them fit.
<humphreybc> we want to minimize resizing down, and we want to have _no_ resizing up
<godbyk> I may be able to whip up something like that.
<godbyk> Right.
<humphreybc> yeah, the images have to look really nice and professional
<humphreybc> even keir thomas' pocket guide and makeuseof karmic guide's images look terrible
<godbyk> nice and professional images often make the PDF size explode, unfortunately.  But we'll see if we can't strike a nice balance.
<humphreybc> in evince, at least
<godbyk> link?
<humphreybc> http://www.ubuntupocketguide.com/index_main.html
<humphreybc> http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/the-incredible-guide-to-ubuntu-karmic-koala-linux-pdf/
<humphreybc> we probably won't be getting on the Lucid CD, so that means we don't have to worry about file size so much for this release
<humphreybc> obviously we still want to keep it down, but it's not crucial
<humphreybc> what we *could* do in the future is take a lighter version of our manual for the CD inclusion. Perhaps just the first half, less screenshots and lower quality screenshots
<thorwil> heh, i told you resizing would look bad. glad to see file size considerations pushed back a bit :)
<godbyk> thorwil: Yeah, I don't see much way around that.  When they're not scaled, they're huge.
<humphreybc> well most of our shots shouldn't be that huge
<humphreybc> we'll only really have one or two full desktop shots at most
<godbyk> It's possible that another program (gimp, imagemagick, other) may do a better job of scaling than the internal LaTeX stuff does, too.  But it still won't be picture-perfect.
<thorwil> in cases where you might have shots of dialogs of varying size, it might be preferable to have the same DPI, instead of scaling each one to match a height or width
<godbyk> thorwil: Yeah, that's what we'll probably be doing.
<humphreybc> i might try printing some of the manual now and see how it turns out
<godbyk> Scaling the shots humphreybc just sent me to 1/2 the size doesn't look too horrible and fits on the page fairly well (though still a bit too large).
<godbyk> humphreybc: All 99 pages? :-)
<humphreybc> 99 pages now?! wow
<humphreybc> not all 99 pages lol
<humphreybc> just a couple from the prologue probably
<thorwil> godbyk: wait, are you talking on changing dpi or actually resizing the image as in changing the amount of pixels?
<godbyk> uh..
<humphreybc> :D
<godbyk> I'm not sure what LaTeX does when I say scale=0.5.
<godbyk> I don't know what scaling method it's using.
<humphreybc> slightly unrelated, godbyk how easy is it to put the revision number on the license page? i saw that come up in the meeting
<godbyk> humphreybc: Yeah, I have to look into the bzr details of that. I know most versioning systems will let you do that, but I have to see how to do it with bzr.
<thorwil> godbyk: what i have been saying all the time is that you should not change the amount of pixels in screenshots
<godbyk> thorwil: I understand.
<humphreybc> leave the pixeeeels!
<thorwil> need to be clear, it's all too easy to run into misunderstandings ;)
<humphreybc> fair enough
 * humphreybc thinks it's pretty amazing that his server has uploaded 2GB of "main.pdf" in the last two days
<thorwil> humphreybc: i have a list in front of me: icons: "Advanced", "Warning", ("Tip"), Icons per Chapter
<thorwil> vish: ^
<godbyk> It looks like it's up to the PDF viewer to scale the image.  The image gets included as-is and the PDF viewer scales it however the PDF file wants it scaled.
<godbyk> (I think..)
<thorwil> that's what should happen
<humphreybc> hmm okay
<humphreybc> i wonder what it looks like under adobe reader in windows or mac
<humphreybc> i think it is a problem with evince because other publications present the same issues
<vish> thorwil: already most of those icons are in humanity , of if you want simple glyph style icons i have those too
<vish> or if*
<humphreybc> we can probably use the humanity icons
<godbyk> I was trying to see what it looked like in acroread under linux, but it keeps locking up on me.
<humphreybc> the default install uses humanity right?
<vish> thorwil: i did them for evince annotations support , we could use the dsame
<vish> humphreybc: yeah
<thorwil> vish: could you add matching icons of both sets to the wiki, please?
<humphreybc> anyone got windows or mac lying around?
<vish> thorwil: which wiki page?
<humphreybc> vish: artwork/icons or something
<thorwil> vish: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Artwork/Icons
<humphreybc> wallah :D
<vish> thats better :D
<vish> thorwil: hmm , i need to create new page?
<godbyk> loading it up in acroread on linux, it looks pretty decent, actually.
<thorwil> ideally, we would include icons in vector form
<humphreybc> awesome
<thorwil> vish: yes. just rough if it in, i can clean it up if you don't fell like
<thorwil> feel, even
<humphreybc> godbyk: re the daily builds, at the moment i'm putting each revision up on my server
<vish> k.. its just that wiki sucks ;p
<godbyk> http://kevin.godby.org/private/ubuntu-manual/Screenshot.png
<godbyk> evince on the left, acroread on the right
<thorwil> vish: if you ask me, we should have something looking more like the fedora wiki, but with wysiwyg editing, taking images per drag'n'drop
<thorwil> but the wiki as is is preferable over things getting lost
<vish> hmm , never been to the fedora site ;)
<godbyk> thorwil: Speaking of vector form.. do you know how we can covert our SVGs to *nice*-looking PDFs? Inkscape seems to puke on the gradients or alpha or something.
<humphreybc> godbyk: nice
 * godbyk loves his dual monitors and can't stand working without them.
<thorwil> so Evince does linear interpolation or not even that, i guess
<godbyk> thorwil: I think it just picks random pixels in the area and chucks them.
<thorwil> godbyk: i would guess alpha is the main problem.
<thorwil> godbyk: yeah, shameful. somehow i refused to believe it's no interpolation at all
<godbyk> I have other issues with evince, too.
<vish> thorwil: so thats, only these 3 icons >  "Advanced", "Warning", "Tip"  ?
<godbyk> For instance, if you have the full version of texlive installed, try running 'texdoc fontspec'
<thorwil> vish: Tip isn't in use, even
<thorwil> vish: but there should be icons per chapter
<godbyk> evince just refuses to render some of the text (set in a particular font).  (and yes, the font is embedded)
<vish> thorwil: so only the 2 means, the warning we can use the dialogue-warning icon and the advanced- we can use the system properties icon?
<dutchie> is it just me that is seeing all the contact details squashed on to one line?
<thorwil> vish: we don't know if we can use them as is
<thorwil> vish: first step is to see what's there ;)
<vish> thorwil: all are vector icons , just have a look at the usr/share/icons/humanity
<godbyk> dutchie: where?
<dutchie> bottom of the first page of the prologue
<godbyk> dutchie: Ah, yeah.
<dutchie> I can see \smallskips in the source
<dutchie> they don't seem to do anythin
<dutchie> g
<godbyk> dutchie: Right.. there needs to be blank lines between to separate the paragraphs.
<dutchie> yep
<godbyk> I blame humphreybc. :)
 * dutchie fixes
<humphreybc> :D
<humphreybc> so i was just thinking while waiting the the jug to boil
<humphreybc> it's going to be a mission to get the screenshots in english, let alone in over 40 languages
<humphreybc> we're going to need some sort of factory full of mexicans churning out screenshots
<dutchie> global jam
<dutchie> perfect for this sort of thing
<humphreybc> we might have to target perhaps 10 main languages to get screenshots for, and the rest can be english until we slowly implement them eventually
<humphreybc> true
<humphreybc> so we need some method that makes it easy for anyone to capture screenshots we want in the correct language, and put them somewhere for us to use
<dutchie> if we can encourage someone like jono to publicise it as a thing to do
<dutchie> humphreybc: wiki?
<humphreybc> hmm yeah
<humphreybc> automated would be cool
<humphreybc> i smell the need for a simple screenshot capturing tool
<dutchie> does the screenshot todo thing make a list yet?
<humphreybc> designed for our project...
<dutchie> godbyk: ^^
<humphreybc> you start up the program, choose your language, then take a screenshot (you can select a window) and then it gets uploaded automatically to the correct place with the correct language
<thorwil> vish: where's the system properties icon?
<humphreybc> and the screenshots are all set to the same dpi
<dutchie> it would be about 5 lines of python
<humphreybc> i could look into making a python program and use it as my program for the python paper i'm doing this semester
<humphreybc> but it probably won't be ready yet
<humphreybc> could we use glade or quickly to give it a GUI?
<dutchie> yeah, good idea
<humphreybc> the reason i want it automated is that it'll be a battle trying to explain to the masses that what dpi is and what resolution is etc
<humphreybc> especially the english-is-not-their-first-language masses
<humphreybc> and if we're going to get 1200 screenshots they need to be organized
<godbyk> dutchie: after running make, look for a screenshots.log file.
<dutchie> awesome
<humphreybc> are we the biggest ubuntu project now?
<dutchie> doubt it
<humphreybc> name some large projects...
<humphreybc> ie in team size
<thorwil> a while ago i thought: there should be a layer between applications and their representation on screen. allowing to store/recall the state of what is being shown. such that you can render the same scene with a different them. or language, even
<vish> thorwil: oops , stock_properties.svg or there are a lot of other similar alternative in categories
<godbyk> Can't you just set an environment variable (LANG) that gets read and then everything is translated when you run the program?
<dutchie> LC_MESSAGES should already be set
<dutchie> I've got a $LANG variable anyway
<dutchie> LANG=en_GB.UTF-8
<godbyk> $ echo $LANG
<godbyk> en_US.UTF-8
<godbyk> I think if I set LANG to something either (and the appropriate language packs are installed) that it should work okay, right?
<thorwil> vish: if not a wiki page, could you collect all icons you would consider (can be multiple themes), tar.bz2 and send a copy to design team members?
<vish> k..
<humphreybc> heh... the smell of progress. I like!
<vish> thorwil: i'll try to do it to the wiki itself , but not anytime soon , since i have to make changes to humanity for lucid :(
<thorwil> vish: it's actually not important to have it on the wiki, the important things is each of us who might work with them having the same set
<thorwil> to either use them as is, adjust them, or as point of reference
<godbyk> Could we have vish just drop a copy into the bzr repository for us to use for now and he can update them later when they've been finalized?
<vish> thorwil: hmm... "each of us " i think i'm not following something?
<thorwil> sounds like a good idea
<thorwil> godbyk: good idea
<godbyk> oops.. I closed the wrong window.
<godbyk> (that's what I get for hitting alt+f4 instead of reaching for the mouse.
<thorwil> vish: godbyk, wolter, maybe kolorguild if he ever comes back, myself
<vish> thorwil: but what is there for all of us the work on wrt to those 2 or 3 icons?
 * vish should stop multitasking when talking to thorwil least might face his wrath ;p
<thorwil> vish: there's still icons per chapter
<humphreybc> well icons per chapter, hmm.. things like the terminal will be easy. default apps, just a combination of a few app logos? prologue icon would be a bit hard... installation could be a computer screen with a screwdriver beside it or something, or maybe that could be for troubleshooting
<humphreybc> your imagination is the limit!
<godbyk> prologue could perhaps be the ubuntu logo or something.
<thorwil> vish: there's also the aspect of you doing the collecting work and letting us know what you have. so it is done. once. and everyone who needs to know about it, does
<godbyk> maybe the 'icons' for the chapters should be watermarks in the top-right of the page (bleed to the edge)
<thorwil> we should try and see if icon-per-chapter is feasible
<thorwil> if there is something we can't cover with a sane icon, we drop that idea
<vish> thorwil: hmm, collecting , not anytime this month :(  pretty backed up fixing bugs in humanity :(
<thorwil> vish: what are you even doing here, if your workload is that high? ;p
<humphreybc> thorwil: I think we can cover each chapter with an icon
<vish> thorwil:  hehe ;)  just to bug you ;p
<thorwil> humphreybc: maybe not if it comes down to me having to do the title page and icons alone
<humphreybc> true
<humphreybc> i'll see if martin has a bit of spare time too
<vish> thorwil: the issue is the deadlines for humanity and UI freeze are march4 , so it needs higher priority ;)
<thorwil> vish: sure. you talk too much with that tight deadlines ;)
<vish> ;)
 * vish was hoping that manual design work would have been over by early feb
<thorwil> vish: well, you couldn't know that silly german guy would get involved and make it all blown-out and complicated :)
<humphreybc> haha
<humphreybc> i'm going to start writing up some specifications for the screenshot taking app
<humphreybc> ideas for names?
<humphreybc> Rapture? Impression?
<humphreybc> Getshot?
<godbyk> brb. gonna log out and back in
<thorwil> hotshot
<thorwil> scrot
<dutchie> scrot might be one to avoid
<dutchie> seeing as it is used to abbreviate "scrotum" in en_GB
<humphreybc> haha
<humphreybc> I like impression
<humphreybc> QuickSnap? Snapper?
<humphreybc> QuickCapture
<humphreybc> Quickture
<humphreybc> Quickshot?
<humphreybc> I like quickshot
<humphreybc> not taken already by another FLOSS project so that's a plus
<humphreybc> QuikShot
<dutchie> that looks positively KDEy with all those Ks and Qs
<godbyk> sweet!  Just got the translation stuff working.
<godbyk> that may make screenshots a bit easier.
<godbyk> here's the recipe for those who want to play along at home:
<godbyk> sudo apt-get install language-package-LANG language-pack-gnome-LANG
<humphreybc> okay it's called "QuickShot"
<godbyk> (where LANG is the language code: 'es' for spanish, 'de' for german, etc.)
<godbyk> install whatever dependencies it wants, too.
<humphreybc> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/quickshot
<godbyk> let's say you picked spanish (es)
<godbyk> then from a terminal, run "LANG=es_ES.UTF8 gedit"
<godbyk> and gedit will appear with spanish menus, etc.
<humphreybc> will QuickShot have to run these commands to install the language packs?
<godbyk> well, the language you chose during install will be installed already.
<humphreybc> yeah
<godbyk> if you want to view things in multiple languages, you'll have to install the language packs for those languages
<humphreybc> okay cool
<humphreybc> as much as we can we should try to assign screenshotting to the translation teams
<humphreybc> because they'll already have the correct language
<godbyk> then, you have to set the LANG environment variable (and probably LC_ALL, too) to the language you want to see things in.
<godbyk> right.
<godbyk> this is more useful if you wanted to take screenshots of multiple languages yourself.
 * humphreybc begins drawing up Mark Shuttleworth style UI diagrams with a pencil
<vish> humphreybc: where have you seen those ;p , sabdfl doesnt do them ,the pencil diagrams around in Ubuntu are just from mpt
<godbyk> humphreybc: So what's your QuickShot program going to do?
<humphreybc> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/quickshot
<humphreybc> vish I thought the ones (like the software store and memenu) are from mark?
<vish> humphreybc: i knew it!  nope , all those are mpt
<humphreybc> oh okay!
<humphreybc> joey on omgubuntu is wrong
<humphreybc> i need graphics paper :S
<vish> joey is pretty wrong on a lot of stuff ;)
<humphreybc> haha
<humphreybc> jeez painfully slow download speed
<humphreybc> 10 KB/s
<godbyk> humphreybc: should've stuck with your old ISP, eh? :-)
<humphreybc> well now we have unlimited bandwidth
<humphreybc> but it's traffic managed... for browsing websites it's nice and fast
<humphreybc> speedtest.net gives us at about 6mpbs
<humphreybc> but for some reason downloading stuff takes forever
<humphreybc> i'm downloading the hplip drivers which are 20mb, and it's sooo slow
<humphreybc> i'm going to ring them and complain
<godbyk> nice
<godbyk> what does it cost you a month?
<humphreybc> $105 NZD with a landline
<humphreybc> landline is like $60 of that
<humphreybc> the upload speed is quite good tho, which is nice for my server
<godbyk> So far we're up to 15 screenshots required.
 * humphreybc adds shading to his drawings while waiting for the drivers to download so he can scan it
<humphreybc> if we can stay under 30 that'll be great
<godbyk> I wouldn't hold my breath.
<humphreybc> eek
<humphreybc> we've already got to get 1200 screenshots
<humphreybc> where are all of these going to be hosted?
<humphreybc> i could pester canonical for some server space
<dutchie> why not in the branch?
<humphreybc> yeah
<humphreybc> the branch might end up huge tho
<humphreybc> like half a gig huge
<humphreybc> this is an enormous undertaking
<dutchie> did you not think that when we started?
<humphreybc> at some point i need to talk to mark shuttleworth to see if we can get some extra resources fired our way. I suppose we have to prove ourselves first
<humphreybc> dutchie: honestly, no way!
<dutchie> heh
<dutchie> what sort of extra resources?
<humphreybc> i was just going to create a 50 page english manual in open office...
<humphreybc> dunno whatever they can spare lol
<humphreybc> maybe a domain name :P
<humphreybc> 50 page english manual turned into a 200 page latex manual in over 40 languages with dozens of screenshots
<humphreybc> complete with it's own aggregated planet and almost 300 members.. sigh. xD
<humphreybc> and now i'm planning to write the project's first purpose-built application
<dutchie> don't forget manualbot!
<dutchie> !hi
<manualbot> Hi! Welcome to #ubuntu-manual! Enjoy your stay!
<humphreybc> heheh
 * humphreybc is designing a logo for quickshot
<humphreybc> lol
<humphreybc> anyone seen Ilya recently?
<dutchie> 11:21:11 -!- Irssi: The person with the nick IlyaHaykinson last spoke 14d 13h ago.  11d 13h ago byla na kanale #ubuntu-manual, z ktorego wtedy wyszedlem.
<humphreybc> 14 days ago?
<dutchie> apparently
<humphreybc> try IlyaHaykinson_
<dutchie> 11:21:45 -!- Irssi: The person with the nick IlyaHaykinson_ last spoke 14d 15h ago.  14d 3h ago they were seen quitting on the channel #ubuntu-manual with the  message: Quit: nitenite
 * dutchie <3 irssi
<humphreybc> wow
<humphreybc> i thought i'd seen him last week
<dutchie> it might be broken :)
 * dutchie greps logs
<vish> godbyk: bzr-explorer , seems good too
<vish> you can choose the position of the button labels ;)
<godbyk> vish: Wha-?
<dutchie> irclogs/2010/02/09/#ubuntu-manual.log:08:51 -!- IlyaHaykinson_ [~ilya@cpe-76-94-53-173.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: nitenite]
<dutchie> that's the last I saw of him
<humphreybc> 5 day sago
<vish> godbyk: you mentioned you missed the button labels in bzr-gtk... bzr-explorer has those
 * humphreybc has drawn up five windows, a logo and a quickshot title logo complete with shading and my 20mb download still hasn't finished
<godbyk> vish: Ah. Gotcha.  It wasn't labels I missed, but unique icons and tooltips.
<vish> godbyk: bzr-explorer well, it has those too i guess ;)
<humphreybc> it'd probably be so much quicker to take a photograph with my DSLR of the piece of paper than scanning it in....
<godbyk> I mean, if you're going to use the exact same icon on the toolbar multiple times, you should *at least* give me some tooltips so I can figure out what each one is for.
<godbyk> humphreybc: Probably!
<humphreybc> maybe i should just do that haha
<humphreybc> and scanning works
<humphreybc> took photos but the flash reflected off the page too much
<godbyk> humphreybc: I wanna see! :-)
<humphreybc> getting there!
<humphreybc> just going to crop them into individual windows
<godbyk> I want to go to bed, but I'm helping someone in another channel troubleshoot some software that I haven't used in quite a while.  It's being a pain.
<humphreybc> haha, and you have to wait like 10 minutes till i resize and upload these
<humphreybc> they're cool xD
<godbyk> lol
<godbyk> I just pointed this guy to some troubleshooting stuff on the project's web site and the mailing list address.
 * godbyk yawns
<godbyk> I think I'm gonna head to bed.
<godbyk> humphreybc: You should email me your sketches when you get 'em done.  I'll poke at them for ya. :)
<humphreybc> heh
<humphreybc> i'm putting them on the quickshot page now
<humphreybc> godbyk: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/quickshot
<godbyk> humphreybc: cool
<humphreybc> what do you think of the sketches? hehe
<godbyk> humphreybc: Shouldn't the app check the server first and only offer options that are available?
<dutchie> not sure about that icon
<godbyk> (so I don't select one, fail, select another, fail, repeat fail)
<dutchie> but too much going on for something about 20 pixels wide
<dutchie> bit*
<humphreybc> godbyk: yeah it probably should
<humphreybc> but then we'll end up with a waiting time while it downloads the information, and then a huge window to display hundreds of possibilities
<humphreybc> so i suppose theirs a trade off
<godbyk> The window/area/desktop option could be preset from the server, too.  (so they're consistent across languages)
<humphreybc> the way it is now is good for the start of the project
<humphreybc> but when 1195 shots are done, the last 5 will be very hard to find lol
<humphreybc> i wonder if we can have it change the theme to default, set the language, and change resolutions too?
<humphreybc> so for a few seconds the user will see some crazy shit
<humphreybc> and all the dialogs have to be in english or their own language so they can understand them
<godbyk> right
<humphreybc> so somehow they can't be changed when the system language is changed
<thorwil> humphreybc: labels in dialogs should be short and to the point. ideally front-loaded. so better no "Please choose"
<humphreybc> true
<godbyk> humphreybc: you'd set the LANG and LC_ALL vars to whatever language they're taking the screenshot for and then run the program.  it'll inherit those vars, but the rest of the system is using the system-wide language settings.
<humphreybc> righto
<godbyk> I don't think pulling down a data set from the web on startup would be that bad.
<godbyk> it won't be that big.
<godbyk> number of languages * number of screenshots - # screenshots already taken
<godbyk> it'll get faster each time. :-)
<thorwil> treating it as sentence: "Take a screenshot of: [24 - MeMenu closeup] in the language: [Portuguese]", perhaps
<humphreybc> okay cool
<godbyk> and the language should default to the current system language.
<humphreybc> i'm going to add a "comments" section to the bottom of the wiki if you guys could add your comments there :)
<humphreybc> (otherwise i'll forget)
<godbyk> that's what irc logs are for. :)
<thorwil> ok, my sentecne should be turned around, to be able to mark shots already taken in a language, anyway
<thorwil> godbyk: irc logs are full of noise. like this right here :)
<humphreybc> exackery
<humphreybc> dutchie you're right about the logo
<humphreybc> it'll probably be simpler when done on a computer
<humphreybc> without the detail of pencil shadings and finer, straighter lines etc
<godbyk> humphreybc: Okay, I added a paragraph in the comments section.
<godbyk> But I'm really tired, so it may be nonsensical.  I'll reread it when I wake up and elaborate or fix things.
<humphreybc> cool
<godbyk> Okay, I'm headed to bed now.
<godbyk> I'll be back in 8-9 hours or thereabouts.
<humphreybc> dutchie: does the planet have a cronjob to update?
<humphreybc> godbyk: awesome, night
<dutchie> yes, for the millionth time
<godbyk> You should add more people to the planet.
 * godbyk is going to bed for reals this time!
<dutchie> give me more people to add :)
<humphreybc> well i've emailed the ML at least once asking for people
<humphreybc> josh, feel free to add some comments to the quickshot wiki too
<humphreybc> i'll look at them in the morning and make some changes
<komsas> I'm looking to future, but how to render manual with translated strings?
<humphreybc> you mean the title paeg?
<humphreybc> page*
<komsas> all pages
<humphreybc> that's all being taken care of with latex
<humphreybc> you should have a look at the branch some time
<humphreybc> we can output to any language at the moment
<humphreybc> more or less
<humphreybc> the only thing that has to be manually translated each time is the title page
<komsas> ok, I will look to branch and hope to find how to do this ;) thanks
<humphreybc> yep what happens is that we write the english version in tex files
<humphreybc> and they get compiled into a pdf
<humphreybc> but anyway, there's another program called po4a that takes the strings from the text files and exports them into .pot and .po files
<humphreybc> these get imported into rosetta (launchpad) where you guys translate them
<komsas> Like I :)
<humphreybc> then they get exported out of launchpad, and put back into the branch
<humphreybc> then what happens is that we can run a slightly different command to compile the manual in any of the languages
<humphreybc> and latex just takes the different strings from the .pot and .po files and puts them in the place of the english ones
<humphreybc> it's slightly more complicated than that, but that's pretty much the idea
<komsas> can I find any doc about command how to compile?
<komsas> or where is that script?
<humphreybc> yep, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Help
<humphreybc> and to compile in your own language, however, is a wee bit more involved. We haven't documentated that on the wiki yet but if you ask godbyk when he's around he can tell you how to do it
<humphreybc> I presume you want to compile the PDF in lithuanian?
<humphreybc> to see what it looks like?
<komsas> yes
<humphreybc> okay well godbyk has just gone to sleep, he'll be back in about 8 hours
<humphreybc> but dutchie might know how to do it
<humphreybc> he's just having lunch, should be back in 20 minutes
<komsas> ok I will ask dutchie about this.
<humphreybc> wait i think i found out how to do it
<komsas> mmm..
<humphreybc> maybe
<humphreybc> nope
<humphreybc> haha
<komsas> hehe
<komsas> I will look too..
<humphreybc> try running "make ubuntu-manual-li.pdf"
<komsas> "li" like lithuanian?
<humphreybc> yep
<humphreybc> it's the language code for lithuanian
<humphreybc> you have to run it in the root directory of the branch though
<komsas> nop, ours is lt
<humphreybc> have you pulled the branch?
<humphreybc> oh okay
<komsas> yes
<humphreybc> sorry lt then
<humphreybc> so you can do make show to just see the english version
<humphreybc> also have a look here: http://kevin.godby.org/private/ubuntu-manual/
<humphreybc> godbyk put some of the translated versions on his server, but that was about 2 weeks ago
<humphreybc> I don't think lithuanian is htere
<humphreybc> but there are some similar to lithuanian that you can look at to get an idea before he tells you how to compile the actual lt version
<humphreybc> those aren't particularly useful
<komsas> do you know where to get package xelatex?
<humphreybc> ohhhhhh that's right
<humphreybc> i remember now
<humphreybc> nope i'm not sure
<komsas> I found texlive-xetex :)
<humphreybc> he had to use a newer version of latex because of all the special chinese characters and such
<humphreybc> it's like the 2007 version of it that isn't in the repos yet
<komsas> yee.. it is old.
<humphreybc> yup
<humphreybc> darn translations, so complicated :P
<komsas> someone must write all dependences for compiling and create ppa for them.
<komsas> then will be more easy for us (translators)
<humphreybc> for the translations?
<humphreybc> yea
<humphreybc> a PPA is a good idea
<humphreybc> although I think xelatex is a pretty large package
<humphreybc> no probs
<humphreybc> wait
<humphreybc> wrong window
<humphreybc> right i think i need sleep
<humphreybc> it's 2:30am here now
<humphreybc> talk to you guys tomorrow
<dutchie> komsas: godbyk had a list of requirements for building a translated version
<komsas> dutchie: ok, I will ask him
<dutchie> I might be able to find them
<dutchie> try running "make ubuntu-manual-lt.pdf" (assuming you want the lithuanian version)
<humphreybc> dutchie: we tried that
<humphreybc> remember godbyk said something about requiring 2007 edition of xelatex
<humphreybc> and that it wasn't available in the repos
<humphreybc> and stuff
<komsas> yes, I need newer version of xelatex
<dutchie> aha, found it
<dutchie> https://lists.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/msg00548.html
<komsas> nice, thanks dutchie
<dutchie> Pendulum: haven't seen you around here before :)
<Pendulum> dutchie: I mostly joined to see if Ben was around to talk about the training days in -classroom
<Pendulum> I looked at the project when it first started and then realised I didn't have time to get involved ;)
<Pendulum> but as I am involved in Classroom we want to make sure everything gets organized and scheduled appropriately :)
<dutchie> he did ask me to help arrange that
<Pendulum> ah, okay
<dutchie> I could probably be of assistance as he's asleep now
<Pendulum> I just sent him an e-mail with a heads up as there's already a class scheduled at 1800 UTC on the 23rd
<Pendulum> so we need y'all to leave that hour free
<Pendulum> do you want to take this to #ubuntu-classroom-backstage?
<dutchie> we've got a timetable under construction in an etherpad
<dutchie> hmm, chrome seems to have decided not to work
<Pendulum> that's not useful of it :P
<dutchie> OK, working now
<dutchie> http://etherpad.com/ov6YwNDcDi is what we have so far
<dutchie> I think here is fine, unless you want it in #ubuntu-classroom-backstage
<dutchie> Pendulum: does that timetable look good?
<dutchie> right, have to walk the dog before it gets dark, but will be back soon
<Pendulum> dutchie: it looks pretty similar to what we've seen already and so far looks fine to me
<dutchie> Pendulum: great. I think Ben is keen to be able to use Lernid for this. Do you know where the .lernid file should go to have Lernid autodetect it?
<Pendulum> dutchie: that I don't know. I think for User Days those dealing with lernid e-mailed someone
<Pendulum> nhandler may know
<dutchie> OK, thanks
<dutchie> I might just look through the source :)
<Pendulum> dutchie: nhandler things the .lernid files still may need to go to jono to be autodetected
<dutchie> OK, thanks
<dutchie> I'll grab jono if he's ever around
<Pendulum> or maybe qense since I know jono handed lernid off to him
<dutchie> I'll ask jono, as it's probably more a case of someone having upload rights to the webspace
<Pendulum> *nods*
<dutchie> configfile = urllib.urlopen('http://www.jonobacon.org/files/lernid/ubuntu.lernid')
<dutchie> I'll ask jono :)
<dutchie> though in the meantime, a hungry dog has appeared
<Pendulum> :)
<Pendulum> isn't that redundent?
<Pendulum> I thought all dogs were hungry all the time
<dutchie> well, an especially hungry dog then
<dutchie> now a dribbly dog has come to thank me for food
<nozes> legal
<dutchie> nozes: can we help?
<nozes> no, I am speak english ;(
<dutchie> ok... I think ;)
<ubuntujenkins> I am trying to explain the click and drag process used in drop and red-eye reduction in f-spot does this make sense? http://paste.ubuntu.com/376416/
<ubuntujenkins> *crop
<dutchie> maybe "of the subject's eye" instead of just "of the red-eye"
<dutchie> otherwise pretty clear I think
<ubuntujenkins> thanks dutchie how do I get added to the authors? can i just add my self in the tex file?
<dutchie> have you joined the team?
<ubuntujenkins> yes I have done empathy and am on f-spot and totem
<dutchie> Yeah, just put yourself in somewhere with the others then
<ubuntujenkins> cool didn't want to just add it just incase thanks!
<godbyk> Did komsas get pointed in the right direction for compiling the manual in Lithuanian?
<dutchie> godbyk: yeah, I gave him a link to your original ML post
<godbyk> dutchie: Cool. Thanks.
<godbyk> Hopefully those instructions aren't too hard to follow.
<dutchie> well, he hasn't come back and asked for more help, so I assume so
<godbyk> The biggest drawback is that downloading TeX Live can take a while -- it's huge!
<dutchie> indeed
<godbyk> The glossaries stuff in the Ubuntu repositories is also woefully out of date.  At some point, I may have to have everyone using TL2009 for things (and stop making English a special case).
<dutchie> probably a good idea
<dutchie> hmm, I wonder what version TL is in lucid
<dutchie> 2007.dfsg.2-4ubuntu1 :(
<dutchie> it's in testing and unstable though
<dutchie> tempted to request a sync
<godbyk> It's almost better to use the real TeX Live stuff 'cause it has its own updater (to get updated packages).
<godbyk> Seems Debian/Ubuntu never post updates for anything.
<dutchie> well, debian have got 2009 in
<dutchie> I think you just have to complain at them to make anything happen
<godbyk> I see.
<godbyk> http://www.tug.org/texlive/debian.html
<dutchie> I think getting texlive synced for lucid will involve pain
 * dutchie decides to put a tentative question out in #ubuntu-devel
<dutchie> 23:13:47 < geser> dutchie: lucid will have TeXLive 2009
<godbyk> dutchie: yay!
<dutchie> it doesn't yet though
<godbyk> figures.
#ubuntu-manual 2011-02-09
<somethinginteres> is a manual coming out for 10.10 or is the goal simply to have one ready for 11.04?
<Muscovy> I'm not sure.
<Muscovy> I believe it's hoped to have the 10.10 one ready soon.
<somethinginteres> OK is there a page listing what is left to be done?
<Muscovy> I don't know.
<somethinginteres> no worries
<Andre_Gondim> Hi, how I do a pdf from po file?
#ubuntu-manual 2011-02-12
<c7p> hello all
<godbyk> Hey, c7p.
<ChrisWoollard> Evening
<sipherdee> hi everyone!
<ChrisWoollard> Hello
<godbyk> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 14:00. The chair is godbyk.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<godbyk> Yay, I remembered how that worked! :)
<c7p> nice, i guess here is the agenda http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/jM8mKDIKEB
<godbyk> [TOPIC] Find a new project leader
<MootBot> New Topic:  Find a new project leader
 * daker is here
<godbyk> Hey, ChrisWoollard.. still around?
<ChrisWoollard> Yes
<godbyk> Ah, there you are.
<ChrisWoollard>  just poped downstairs for some food
<godbyk> Was popey involved?
<godbyk> (Sorry, couldn't resist.)
<godbyk> Back on topic now.
<ChrisWoollard> :)
<godbyk> So Ben's resigned as the project lead on account of being busy with other things and having a life and all.
<godbyk> That left us somewhat rudderless and we need to sort out the future of this project.
<ChrisWoollard> It has been noticed.
<godbyk> If we think the project should continue, we'll need to work on finding a new project lead (or at least a release manager for each edition).
<godbyk> (As well as finding folks to do all the other work that's involved in publishing a manual, of course.)
<godbyk> I guess the first question we need to answer is: Do we think the project should continue or should we let it die?
<ChrisWoollard> Do we have a Jobe spec?
<godbyk> ChrisWoollard: There's a short one here: http://typewith.me/dV3ZKFh1fp
<godbyk> But nothing too specific.
<c7p> we want the project to continue, that's why we are here, right ?
<UndiFineD> o/
<ChrisWoollard> I want it to continue
<thorwil> really? i'm here to see it die! muhahaha!
<c7p> yap, ok is there anyone here who wants to lead ?
<c7p> lol
<daker> not me :)
<ChrisWoollard> Are there any volunteers?
<godbyk> There are a couple ways we can go about this:
<godbyk> 1. Find a project lead who helps steer the overall project (across multiple releases), and
<godbyk> 2. Find an editor in chief for each release cycle who manages that particular edition of the manual.
<godbyk> These two roles could be filled by the same person or filled by multiple people.
<sipherdee> i am reading the mailing list since some months but i am unable to vote on who could take the lead.
<c7p> sipherdee: there is nobody as candidate until now so don't worry
<thorwil> godbyk: your are the defacto nexus of this project and as such the most natural candidate to now lead officially. yeah, i know, i'm mean ;)
<godbyk> thorwil: Oh, you're evil!
<c7p> i agree
<godbyk> Unfortunately, I'm afraid I don't have the time to take on that responsibility right now.
<ChrisWoollard> The same for me. My time for this project is somewhat eratic.
<godbyk> I think we should determine the structure of the role(s) we need to fill (either a single project leader or a project leader and an editor-in-chief).
<c7p> maybe we need other model of team management until we find a project leader
<godbyk> Then we can look for volunteers on the mailing list and elsewhere in the community.
<ChrisWoollard> So, potentially look outside of the project?
<c7p> here we go http://typewith.me/GY2L5yJCUF
<ChrisWoollard> godbyk, can you right what we need and I can post it to the planet
<ChrisWoollard> + others
<godbyk> I can jot some notes in there, yeah.
<c7p> ChrisWoollard: for the editors i think it's ok but for the project leader i'm not so sure
<ChrisWoollard> c7p: You don't think we should go outside of the project?
<c7p> ChrisWoollard: for new members of course
<c7p> and maybe for leader but independents if he/she has worked on other project
<thorwil> what about joining/building a bridge to the documentation team, to stay within my evil ways?
<godbyk> thorwil: I don't think anyone's against the notion, but we'd need some specific proposals/ideas on how to do that.
<ChrisWoollard> That isn't such a bad idea.
<godbyk> thorwil: Otherwise, we just end up talking a lot and nothing happens.
<c7p> yes
<ChrisWoollard> Where as at the moment we haven't really talked or done anything
<ChrisWoollard> :)
<godbyk> The documentation team is being hit pretty hard this cycle, too, as they're not able to just repackage GNOME's upstream documentation.
<godbyk> Everyone has to write new documentation for Unity.
<thorwil> godbyk: i'm great at *not* talking a lot, but bad at diplomacy :)
<jasono> Hello everyone. AM I late for the meeting?
<godbyk> jasono: A bit, but it's still going on, and you haven't missed much yet.
<ChrisWoollard> jasono: a little
<jasono> Oh. :/
<ChrisWoollard> not much
<godbyk> c7p: Did you have any specific ideas in mind for alternative team management models?
<c7p> i have some ideas
<godbyk> c7p: Do tell!
<c7p> :p
<ChrisWoollard> please share
<c7p> what a leader does ? he set roles
<c7p> we should set roles by ourselves since there is none
<c7p> the problem that we have regards writing content
<c7p> as far as i remmber ben was checking the text, he was highlighting changes and aditions that should be done
<c7p> one member or maybe more should be in charge of this, tracking changes of future releases
<c7p> then ben was writing at his blog and at omgubuntu about what our team does and what it needs
<godbyk> In my mind, the editor-in-chief is basically someone who wrangles all the chapter authors and editors and harasses them until they've turned in their work.
<godbyk> The EiC makes sure we hit our deadlines and basically drives the release.
<godbyk> The project leader, in contrast, is really there just for more big-picture things.. longer-term thinking.  I think this role isn't nearly so important (at least as embodied by a single individual) as the EiC.
<godbyk> The responsibilities of the project leader could be split up and assigned to multiple individuals easily enough.
<godbyk> But I think that we really need an editor-in-chief for each edition.  Someone who takes responsibility for that edition.
<ChrisWoollard> Communication could be done by whoever really
<c7p> godbyk: +1 (leader could be split up and assigned to multiple individuals easily enough.)
<godbyk> Marketing, recruiting, cheerleading, etc., can and should be done by multiple people.
<thorwil> make the EiC an honor you have to apply for and who knows ...?
<ChrisWoollard> It might help if they can post to the planet. But that could be proxied through other people too.
<godbyk> My primary concern, then, is finding a good EiC.
<godbyk> The EiC role could be held be a different person each release cycle, or by one person for multiple release cycles (if they're good at it and willing to stay on).
<ChrisWoollard> Personally, both roles share me. Oh the Responsibly
<ChrisWoollard> s/share/scare
<godbyk> The EiC needs to be dedicated and willing to stick around at least for the duration of that release cycle.
<c7p> could EiC role be taken by two people ?
<godbyk> The EiC role could be shared by a couple people as long as they work closely together.  I don't think it ought to be distributed across more people than that, though, because then the responsibility level drops too much and people are willing to shrug it off too easily.
<c7p> i agree on that two are enough
<ChrisWoollard> You could delegate responsibiliy to various chapters also.
<godbyk> ChrisWoollard: Each chapter would have its own author(s) and an editor, perhaps.
<ChrisWoollard> that would work
<godbyk> But I really want to have one (or two at most) people who have responsibility for the entire manual.
<ChrisWoollard> Agreed
<godbyk> To ensure it gets published on time, that it's of the highest quality, etc.
<ChrisWoollard> So... Should we move on and work on these roles later?
<godbyk> It's the EiC's job to manage the chapter authors/editors.
<godbyk> Sure.
<c7p> what's next ?
<godbyk> [TOPIC] Quickshot
<MootBot> New Topic:  Quickshot
<godbyk> Any Quickshot developers around?
<ChrisWoollard> or anybody that knows anything about it?
<godbyk> I saw jenkins in here earlier, but then he went offline.
<godbyk> I haven't seen flan in quite a while.
<ChrisWoollard> Personally i think quickshot is a big problem
<godbyk> Okay, so we need to find out the status of Quickshot: Is is ready for us to use on the Maverick edition?
<ChrisWoollard> Nobody seems to know anything about it
<godbyk> And we need to get some instructions written up on how to install and use it.
<godbyk> I know that flan and jenkins have both been really busy the past few months.
<godbyk> So we may need to scare up some more developers to help out.
<ChrisWoollard> As far as i know the screenshots are all that we really need for the maverick manual
<godbyk> Okay, I'll contact flan and jenkins to get a status report and see if they can write up some instructions for us.
<godbyk> I'll also see if they need more developers to help them out.
<godbyk> [ACTION] godbyk will contact Quickshot developers to get a status report, to get instructions for installation/use, and to see if they need more developers
<MootBot> ACTION received:  godbyk will contact Quickshot developers to get a status report, to get instructions for installation/use, and to see if they need more developers
<godbyk> [TOPIC] Natty edition
<MootBot> New Topic:  Natty edition
<ChrisWoollard> What do we want to do?
<ChrisWoollard> 1.
<ChrisWoollard> A full Manaul
<godbyk> For the Natty edition, we need to decide whther to publish a full manual or just release some sort of Unity supplemental.
<ChrisWoollard> 2. A New featues / changes guide
<ChrisWoollard> 3. Nothing (Wait to the next LTS).
<ChrisWoollard> 4. ?
<c7p> unity is a headache fot the editions to come :/
<ChrisWoollard> I tried the Alpha 1 and hated it. It never worked and drove me round the bend.
<godbyk> Can you give me an idea of some things that would be in the new features / changes guide?
<ChrisWoollard> Does anybody have views on what to do?
<godbyk> Ideally, I think our manual should cover the default installation/settings of Ubuntu.
<ChrisWoollard> I would say for Natty for example. Unity
<ChrisWoollard> So an Installation Chapter
<godbyk> So if Unity is the default desktop environment (or whatever), then we should cover that in the manual.
<c7p> no unity isn't the default
<godbyk> It isn't theh default?
<ChrisWoollard> http://www.ubuntu.com/testing/natty/alpha2
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://www.ubuntu.com/testing/natty/alpha2
<godbyk> (I'm behind the times on Natty.)
<ChrisWoollard> Looks like
<ChrisWoollard> LibreOffice
<godbyk> From ChrisWoollard's link: "Ubuntu Desktop will run Unity by default..."
<ChrisWoollard> I do wonder if that is set in stone.
<c7p> if the hardware supports 3d or 2d it is default, if the hardware doesn't support video accelartion gnome 2.3 is default
<ChrisWoollard> I wonder if i depends on how far the development of it gets
<ChrisWoollard> if it is stable enough
<godbyk> Given that the GNOME desktop (panels) are the fallback when the hardware doesn't support Unity, will we need to cover both Unity and GNOME (panels)?
<ChrisWoollard> I would say yes.
<godbyk> Well, that'll increase the size of the manual a bit. :)
<ChrisWoollard> Isn't there also a 2d unity in developement?
<daker> if 3D is supported you will be able to run Unity, if not you will be able to run Unity-2D
<godbyk> My opinion is that I should be able to hand a copy of our manual and an installation CD to someone and they should be able to install and start using Ubuntu.
<godbyk> So if Unity and GNOME environments are both included on the CD, we should cover them in the manual.
<ChrisWoollard> +1
<c7p> that's right
<godbyk> We may be able to downplay the GNOME environment a bit if we don't think most people will see it, but it should at least get a mention and pointers to more info about it.
<thorwil> i'd say  a mention and pointers to more info about it should be all it gets
<ChrisWoollard> I really depends on how likely the fallback will be
<ChrisWoollard> I know that Ubuntu in a VM never seems to have 3d. Or at least whenever I have tried it
<godbyk> We have plenty of GNOME material already written. So we could repackage that as a supplemental that we can point to, perhaps.
<daker> ChrisWoollard, to run Unity in VM you need VirtualBox4
<ChrisWoollard> Oh Okay, I haven't tried VB4 yet.
<ChrisWoollard> I gave up on VB at version3 because it have performance issues whenever i used it.
<godbyk> Do we have a consensus on how to handle the Natty edition?
<c7p> two chapters, one for gnome and one for unity ?
<ChrisWoollard> Maybe we could have a vote on what to do?
<godbyk> ChrisWoollard: We could.  What are the options?
<ChrisWoollard> 1.) Full 2.) New Feaures / Changes + Installation 3.) Nothing
<ChrisWoollard> 4?
<godbyk> I think (1) could be split into two options: (a) include both GNOME and Unity in one manual, or (b) include only unity and point to a supplemental fascicle for GNOME.
<godbyk> So our options would be: 1(a), 1(b), 2, or 3.
<godbyk> Do we want to vote on those?  If so, I guess just shout out which option you prefer.
<thorwil> concentrate on defaults/the common case, everything outside of that risks causing confusion and is too mabitious regarding workload
<thorwil> mabitious, cute
<godbyk> thorwil: So that's kind of a vote for 1(b) where the fascicle may not exist? :)
<c7p> 1(a) if we have enough editors till then
<ChrisWoollard> I am worried about the number of people we having working on it.
<godbyk> ChrisWoollard: I am, too.  But I think we have to have some of these decisions made before we can recruit for volunteers.  Otherwise when people show up, we won't have anything ready for them to do.
<ChrisWoollard> I would like 1a i think
<c7p> everyone has the right to vote, comon :P
<godbyk> Looking at the Maverick edition, I think chapter 2 ("Around the Desktop") is the one most affected by the Unity change.  And that chapter is only 15 pages long.  (And not all of those pages will have to be modified.)
<godbyk> Given that, I'll cast my lot in with 1(a) as well.
<godbyk> (If it were more material than that, the I'd be tempted to go with 1(b) to avoid confusing people with two different desktop environments.)
<ChrisWoollard> Ok
<godbyk> (I think if we go with 1(a), we'll want to move the GNOME stuff to an appendix or someplace out of the way.)
<ChrisWoollard> I agree. Appendix for Gnome would work.
<ChrisWoollard> Last call for votes?
<ChrisWoollard> Going......
<ChrisWoollard> ...........Going.......
<c7p> :D
<ChrisWoollard> .......................................... Sold...... To the Alien in the cheap seats!....
<godbyk> [ACTION] The Natty manual will cover both Unity and GNOME environments
<MootBot> ACTION received:  The Natty manual will cover both Unity and GNOME environments
<godbyk> [TOPIC] Maverick edition
<MootBot> New Topic:  Maverick edition
<ChrisWoollard> It needs screenshots
<godbyk> ChrisWoollard: Is that really all that needs to be done?
<ChrisWoollard> I think most of it was written and editted.
<godbyk> Okay. I guess I had assumed we still had a bunch of editing to do, or something.
<ChrisWoollard> Obviously, it could do with checking.
<godbyk> Always. :)
<ChrisWoollard> I know all the big changes were done.
<godbyk> So I guess we'll need to wait to hear back from the Quickshot folks then?
<ChrisWoollard> Yes.
<ChrisWoollard> So the action is to kick the Quickshoters
<godbyk> Cool. I'll use that as leverage.  "You guys are holding up the Maverick edition!"
<c7p> nice nice
<godbyk> [TOPIC] Recruiting
<MootBot> New Topic:  Recruiting
<c7p> regarding this, first we need to define the roles to be taken and the tasks that should be done
<ChrisWoollard> We need to complete those role specs
<ChrisWoollard> Can we also maybe copy Maverick to a new branch to start working on Natty>
<ChrisWoollard> ?
<godbyk> ChrisWoollard: We'll create a new natty branch.
<godbyk> I'll try to do that later today.
<godbyk> (After I remember how it all works again. :-))
<ChrisWoollard> We can't really get people to work on stuff until that is gone
<ChrisWoollard> dos/gone/done
<c7p> nice, regarding natty changes have in mind this pad http://typewith.me/1rgiBqwp8U
<c7p> fill it with whatever is missing
<godbyk> [ACTION] godbyk to create a natty branch
<MootBot> ACTION received:  godbyk to create a natty branch
<ChrisWoollard> Once that is done I can try to get new people to help.
<godbyk> I think that we should try to find an EiC for the natty edition ASAP.
<godbyk> Then they can jump in and start driving that release.
<ChrisWoollard> How / Where?
<godbyk> Well, we should finish the job description first, probably.
<godbyk> Then we can post it to our mailing list and see if anyone there wants to step up for that role.
<ChrisWoollard> We should ...... never mind
<ChrisWoollard> you got there first
<godbyk> If not, then we can cast a wider net: hit up the planet and OMG!, etc.
<godbyk> While you guys are still around, can you help out with the EiC job description?
<godbyk> [TOPIC] Natty editor-in-chief
<MootBot> New Topic:  Natty editor-in-chief
<godbyk> The job description is being worked on at http://typewith.me/GY2L5yJCUF
<godbyk> (I hate writing job descriptions.)
<c7p> you guys are good in writing descriptions :p
<ChrisWoollard> Anything else left to cover?
<c7p> i think it's all that should be written
<godbyk> ChrisWoollard: Nothing else on the agenda.
<godbyk> I think we'll try to clean up this editor in chief job description and then post it to the list.
<c7p> guys something more
<godbyk> ChrisWoollard: Do you want to handle the recruitment of the EiC?
<ChrisWoollard> Should we formally close, but continue to sort out the jov specs
<godbyk> ChrisWoollard: Works for me.
<godbyk> c7p: What else do you have?
<godbyk> [TOPIC] Any other business
<MootBot> New Topic:  Any other business
<c7p> i think we should work a bit on site these months
<c7p> i mean to add new content
<godbyk> "on site"
<c7p> or update the existing
<c7p> website*
<godbyk> c7p: Oh!
<ChrisWoollard> I know there is a beta for the website
<godbyk> c7p: There is a new test site out there: http://test.ubuntu-manual.org/
<c7p> nice
<godbyk> humphreybc and daker were working on it before humphreybc left.
<godbyk> I'm not sure what it's status is.
<ChrisWoollard> What do you want me to do for the EiC?
<godbyk> c7p: But, I agree, we do need to work on the website at some point in the not-so-distant future.
<godbyk> ChrisWoollard: When we finish the description, do you want to send it to the list?
<c7p> yes we need to have a least a nice and comprehensive "get involved" and "about us" section
<ChrisWoollard> godbyk: Ok, np
<godbyk> c7p: I agree.
<godbyk> c7p: Remind us when we schedule the next meeting to add that to the agenda.
<c7p> ok
<ChrisWoollard> Should be have another meeting in a couple of weeks?
<godbyk> ChrisWoollard: Probably a good idea.
<godbyk> So we can see how our recruiting efforts went and to get a handle on the natty edition before we run out of time there.
<ChrisWoollard> Is Saturday 20:00UTC a good time?
<ChrisWoollard> any views?
<godbyk> It works well for me.
<c7p> we may set a poll
<ChrisWoollard> c7p: can you schedule the next meeting?
<ChrisWoollard> with the poll?
<c7p> of course
<ChrisWoollard> thanks
<c7p> no problem
<godbyk> Any other business, anyone?
<ChrisWoollard> Can you check the Minutes?
<ChrisWoollard> http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/jM8mKDIKEB
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/jM8mKDIKEB
<godbyk> We'll continue to work on the editor-in-chief job description at http://typewith.me/GY2L5yJCUF if anyone cares to join us.
<godbyk> ChrisWoollard: Looks good to me.
<ChrisWoollard> I'll post the minutes to the Wiki.
<godbyk> 'kay.
<godbyk> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 15:32.
<c7p> nice
<godbyk> ChrisWoollard: Can you post the minutes to the mailing list, too?  (Along with a link to the transcript.)
<ChrisWoollard> where do i find the transcript?
<ChrisWoollard> I will post to the list.
<godbyk> ChrisWoollard: http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/02/12/%23ubuntu-manual.html
<c7p> almost forgot it, me and Patrick are working on rewriting the getting started as editor/author https://docs.google.com/document/d/1B0zSycRKFmWy39ipsS-1VYw43UYdrvY1MSpY9s5Emkk/edit?authkey=CKWU8dYM&hl=en# if you guys have some time check it and let me know your opinion and if you find any typo etc
<godbyk> c7p: Sure thing.
<godbyk> Lemme finish this job description first.
<c7p> i can give anyone editor privileges if they want
<ChrisWoollard> I'll have a look also
<ChrisWoollard> It looks good so far.
<c7p> should i add on leader and Eic description pad the description of an editor -we have written it during a previous meeting- ?
<godbyk> c7p: Sure, you can drop that in someplace. It might be helpful.
<c7p> ok
<godbyk> (I feel like I'm starting to just dump everything on the poor EIC!)
<godbyk> Oh, that's not bad.
<c7p> haha
<c7p> well he may not be the only who is responsible for all these
<c7p> list of UMP pads http://typewith.me/OzNMJ6gyKk , you don't have to bookmark all these. Just bookmark the list
<ChrisWoollard> Oooo, We now have a Chapter Editor as well.
<c7p> what's the difference between author and editor ?
<godbyk> c7p: The author writes the text and the editor proofreads it (basically).
<godbyk> My brain's going in circles now.  What am I missing in the EIC description?
<c7p> poor EiC
<godbyk> If nothing obvious is missing, I'll turn it over to ChrisWoollard to tighten up the text a bit.
<c7p> :p
<godbyk> c7p: I know!
<godbyk> I'm trying not to dump everything into one role, but there really is a lot for the EIC to do.
<godbyk> Many of those duties are shared among other roles, too, of course.
<c7p> you should write this cause it's very deterrent to become an EiC when you see this list !
<ChrisWoollard> godbyk. I will have a look at the text in a while.
<godbyk> ChrisWoollard: np
<godbyk> Now I have to look through the minutes to see what I crazy stuff I agreed to do. :-)
<godbyk> Okay, I've emailed the Quickshot guys.  I'll let you know what I hear back.
<godbyk> Next up: Branch for natty.
<c7p> EiC is release manager ?
<godbyk> c7p: Yes.
<c7p> ok thx
<c7p> all: have a nice weekend :), bye
#ubuntu-manual 2012-02-12
<synergetic> Any particular reason why the style guide is in the topic for this channel, but isn't somewhere under "Resources For Authors and Editors" on the ubuntu-manual.org website?
